# Has the Erotic Fiction bubble burst (so to speak)



## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

I see a lot of erotic fiction writers on here and while I do not like the genre myself I have found these writers to be amongst the friendliest and helpful on the boards.  So I'd like to ask them a couple of things - Were you writing it before 50 Shades and did you just jump on the bandwagon to make money?  Is it still selling as well? And do some other writers look down on the genre?


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

I am personally starting an erotic fiction series about a housewife-turned-escort under the pen name "Erin Stirling". This will be a series of stories written in a diary format from the author's personal POV. I am the author of two books, innumerable short stories, the former contributing editor to two non-fiction national magazines, and former executive editor of a Florida-wide monthly periodical. This will be my first foray into erotic fiction.

Why am I moving into this market?

- I can write erotic fiction with great speed and efficiency;
- The works skew toward shorter works;
- I feel the market has a high consumption rate;
- I believe this market presents a good opportunity to link sales from one story to the next by following an aggressive marketing model.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

I've started recently and while there are some easy sales, I'm finding it easier to sell my romance.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Were you writing it before 50 Shades and did you just jump on the bandwagon to make money?


Here is the definition of erotic.

erot·ic
adjective \i-ˈrä-tik\

: relating to sex : causing sexual feelings
Full Definition of EROTIC
1
: of, devoted to, or tending to arouse sexual love or desire <erotic art>
2
: strongly marked or affected by sexual desire

50 Shades of Grey was marketed as an erotic novel. It worked since it got to be very popular and made a lot of money. I wondered why it sold so well so read all three novels in the series. I didn't find anything erotic about the novels. It was about a man named Grey who was an abusive man that performed bondage and degrading sexual acts on women.

I don't see that is erotic at all unless the woman considers being abused to be erotic. Having said that, I thought the story was worth reading if you skip through the bondage and see how the young woman slowly got the upper hand with him. Personally I never liked Grey and felt she should have put a bullet in his head from the beginning.

I have had quite a bit of success with my erotic novels, however, I write them in the context of romance and sex. I don't believe in writing about degrading acts or abuse of women. I doubt 50 shades would have gotten through Amazon's rules if it had written by an Indie writer.


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## polecat (Oct 18, 2013)

BDSM is a legitimate sub genre in erotica, consider for instance "Story of O," "The Image," or the Sleeping Beauty series.
It sells quite well for me. Does not need to be too long (although I have a couple of 55000 + novels)
Mostly, it is fun to write.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

It was indie, wasn't it?

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

"Fifty Shades of Grey" started out as "Twilight" fan fiction called "Master of the Universe" and starred Edward and Bella. E L James reworked it and published it on her own Web site. Then she took it down when she published it through The Writer's Coffee Shop Publishing House, which is for authors who own the copyrights to their works to sell and promote their own works.

Vantage Books later picked it up for re-release in 2012. In August of last year, Amazon UK announced that it had sold more copies of "Fifty Shades of Grey" than the entire "Harry Potter" series *COMBINED*.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

polecat said:


> BDSM is a legitimate sub genre in erotica, consider for instance "Story of O," "The Image," or the Sleeping Beauty series.
> It sells quite well for me. Does not need to be too long (although I have a couple of 55000 + novels)
> Mostly, it is fun to write.


Who wrote the Sleeping Beauty series/ and 50 shades to me was fake BDSM.
psst you just got a sale.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Here is the definition of erotic.
> 
> erot·ic
> adjective \i-ˈrä-tik\
> ...


I have a perma-free novella under a different name. I had intended it to be erotica, but while there is sex, and it's not fade to black, it focuses mostly on how the pov character is feeling, not so much the mechanics. As such, there are no 'dirty' words for sex in the book. (I don't mean that as in erotica is dirty, just can't write the words here so...). I thought it was pretty hot, but beta readers said it wasn't erotica. That it was too tame. Now I have no clue what to call it. It's not really even romance, as the couple is married. I need a genre for married but facing issues, and trying to put the spark back in their marriage--but not getting kinky to do it.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Now I have no clue what to call it. It's not really even romance, as the couple is married. I need a genre for married but facing issues, and trying to put the spark back in their marriage--but not getting kinky to do it.


steamy contemporary romance (if it is contemporary). Rebecca was a romance ... romantic suspense ... and the couple was married!


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

I was writing my books long before I ever heard of 50 Shades. They're also BDSM, but I believe they're quite different from "that" book.

The Sleeping Beauty series are by Anne Rice (although originally under the pen name of A. N. Roquelaure).

_Do some other writers look down on the genre?_ Of course. And lots of people think that you can just _"jump on the bandwagon and make money_".


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

AndreSanThomas said:


> And lots of people think that you can just _"jump on the bandwagon and make money_".


I've always wondered how erotica authors feel about statements like that. I find them a little insulting, and I don't write erotica. I would get miffed if I kept seeing posts saying, oh just go write a spy thriller and ka-ching, easy, peasy. Like you don't need writing and marketing talent to make it in the erotica genre (or any genre/sub genre).


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

I started beforehand. Published beforehand. I started because I was locked up in a hotel in Africa (couldn't leave because of security concerns), and while I did have my laptop, the Internet went out (not for the hotel--for the whole freakin' country. Undersea cable cut). The one TV channel in a language I could understand kept going on the fritz. And I'd read all my books. (I didn't have a Kindle then.) So what the heck, I wrote some. Why erotica? Well, because it was very different from where I was staying. Just for kicks. So I did a few stories, and from that won $100 in a contest and got a book deal. Later moved to self-pubbing. 

I haven't made crazy money off it at all, though. Far from it. Someone told me my stuff is too "literary." But that's OK. I just ... write what I write, you know? The non-fiction pays the mortgage, and the fiction is for fun. 50 Shades of Grey has never had a thing to do with my writing life.

I suppose some writers look down on it. But it's more that people think it must somehow be 'easier' to write than, well, whatever they have chosen to write. And that whoever writes erotica must be, therefore, "selling out" and bypassing real, good books to write crap that might earn a buck. That isn't a battle I'm interested in fighting, so I just don't respond to those pokes.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I wrote quite a few erotic novels, but I doubt I will write any more.  Since my stroke four months ago I have lost interest in writing erotic novels.

So now I write other types of novels which is okay since now I will write more variety.  My erotic and non-erotic sold about the same.

My new novel is going to be a suspense novel which I just started.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your stroke, Wild Rivers.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Sorry to hear about your stroke, Wild Rivers.


Thanks for your concern. I was taken to Emergency immediately by my wife when I had my stoke. I had always thought that strokes happened quickly, but they are slow so I slowly got worse as the day progressed. By that evening, I was totally paralyzed on my right side. The hospital had a great Rehap unit so they worked to get my arms and legs to work again. Also my speech was bad. The nurses were concerned that I might never write again so worked with me to get my right hand working.

I spent 21 days in the hospital and was able to walk with a 4 wheeled walker when I got out. I could also type for short periods of time. At least my brain wasn't damaged too badly.

The way I understand it is that the right side of the brain is where the imagination comes from to write stories. However, the left side has to organize those thoughts for you to be able to write. The stroke is caused by a stoppage in a blood vesicle so brain cells die. So other brain cells have to take over functions that were performing those functioning.

Now I can write for fairly long periods of time and can walk some. Most of the time I use my walker though and can't drive yet. So I am doing exceptionally well according to my doctor.

But I am not exactly like I was before my stroke. I don't see any difference but my wife says that I am different. She says that I am more caring and emotional than I was before my stroke.

But the important thing in a stroke is to get prompt medical attention and good treatment and rehab afterwards.

My doctors tell me to keep writing since they say that the writing helps my brain to retrain itself. Maybe I will even write erotic again some day, but meanwhile there is plenty of other things to write.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Good lord, Wild Rivers! I am totally in awe of you!


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Yeah, my Grandfather suffered a serious stroke and after a while his brain re-wired itself and he regained almost everything he lost when it happened.


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## Irisdeorre (Jul 26, 2011)

I started writing erotic stories in 2011 before 50 Shades of Grey. I went to a creative writing course and the tutor was an erotic writer. I was inspired to try it out and never looked back. It's something I enjoy writing.


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## EvieWeevie (Oct 24, 2012)

Ardin said:


> I've started recently and while there are some easy sales, I'm finding it easier to sell my romance.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


Ardin,

do you mean it's easier to sell non-erotic romance or is the romance erotic as well?


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

I started writing literary erotica in 1998, traditionally published. Now I want to self-publish those reverting back to me and new ones. I'm sure some people are looking down on anything erotic, but given my genre I tend to get a lot of positive responses. I sold while trad pubbed, and I hope I'll do so as an indie as well. I will keep my lit erotica pen name for my self-published titles, so I hope the readers will move along with me.

"Fifty Shades of Grey" has nothing to do with BDSM. The poster calling it abuse is correct. But then already "Twilight" had issues in that area.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

scslawin said:


> "Fifty Shades of Grey" started out as "Twilight" fan fiction called "Master of the Universe" and starred Edward and Bella. E L James reworked it and published it on her own Web site. Then she took it down when she published it through The Writer's Coffee Shop Publishing House, which is for authors who own the copyrights to their works to sell and promote their own works.
> 
> Vantage Books later picked it up for re-release in 2012. In August of last year, Amazon UK announced that it had sold more copies of "Fifty Shades of Grey" than the entire "Harry Potter" series *COMBINED*.


This does not surprise me about the UK market. If books by Katie Price on her 50th marriage and she is only in her 30´s or George Best to help with his drinking habit can become bestsellers, then nothing surprises me about that market at all. If you look on Goodreads, there are quite a few readers who say that until 50 shades they never read a book. That is very worrying and I think the majority of them are from the UK. I will put my hand up and say, I´ve never read Harry Potter - attempted it once but it is just not my thing. Also, I have seen a couple of the movies, my son likes it. Again, did not enjoy them, but went along. I have read 50 shades. Strange, I thought it was a comedy. The seriousness of the book was lost on me with all the different characters that Ana kept seeing like her inner goddess pulling faces and sex talking to her. I bought it and read it only last month, to find out what the hype was about. Most people I have spoken to have done the same. No one has enjoyed it, they have enjoyed either the BDSM or the story that lies beneath it. Which I think is a shame? Think, it would have been a good book, if it was written the way it was intended to be, just not sure what that is.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> I've always wondered how erotica authors feel about statements like that. I find them a little insulting, and I don't write erotica. I would get miffed if I kept seeing posts saying, oh just go write a spy thriller and ka-ching, easy, peasy. Like you don't need writing and marketing talent to make it in the erotica genre (or any genre/sub genre).


If you can bring yourself to self-publish, and get over that shame/stigma, you can write pretty much anything, have fun, and not care too much about impressing anyone. I'm guessing that most of us self-publishers don't get too worried about who thinks who "sold out."

Also, to anyone who thinks it's easy, I simply say ...


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

I truly hope it has burst.

I am sure there are true erotica/romance fanatics on here but I can't help but think the majority of the erotica clogging up Amazon is by authors of other genres who need to make a quick buck to survive.  When these people go back to writing from the heart about topics they feel passionate about, I think we will possibly see a general increase in the quality of material getting published on Amazon.

I am also a music producer and have seen this with music genres.  People get a whiff of the latest 'hot' genre and suddenly the market is clogged with lower and lower quality material.  By the way, I am not saying all erotica is low quality, but I have checked samples of the popular ones and dear lord they are terribly written.  The long-term 'true believers' in romance/erotica who have been writing this stuff for years must look at this bubble with increasing levels of depression and anxiety


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Sarwah2012 said:


> This does not surprise me about the UK market. If books by Katie Price on her 50th marriage and she is only in her 30´s or George Best to help with his drinking habit can become bestsellers, then nothing surprises me about that market at all. If you look on Goodreads, there are quite a few readers who say that until 50 shades they never read a book. That is very worrying and I think the majority of them are from the UK. I will put my hand up and say, I´ve never read Harry Potter - attempted it once but it is just not my thing. Also, I have seen a couple of the movies, my son likes it. Again, did not enjoy them, but went along. I have read 50 shades. Strange, I thought it was a comedy. The seriousness of the book was lost on me with all the different characters that Ana kept seeing like her inner goddess pulling faces and sex talking to her. I bought it and read it only last month, to find out what the hype was about. Most people I have spoken to have done the same. No one has enjoyed it, they have enjoyed either the BDSM or the story that lies beneath it. Which I think is a shame? Think, it would have been a good book, if it was written the way it was intended to be, just not sure what that is.


Of course the numbers for this are still huge, but people need to look at this with perspective. Harry Potter was largely a bricks and mortar release, with people camping outside bookshops for hours at midnight for their copies. The last book came out in 2007, five years before Fifty Shades. The act of buying the Harry Potter series was an experience in and of itself, and one many people - particularly children and parents - did in person. Not so much with Fifty Shades, which still has a stigma attached to it, like most erotica, and is most frequently bought online.

All this to say, Amazon's claim may well be accurate, but it only tells a fraction of the story.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Who wrote the Sleeping Beauty series/ and 50 shades to me was fake BDSM.
> psst you just got a sale.


Anne Rice wrote the Sleeping Beauty series under the pen name Rogelaire [sp?].

50SoG was a vanilla's idea of the inner workings/motivations behind a BDSM relationship.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Wow some interesting discussion here.  I do think there has been some bandwagon jumping after 50 shades but the same applies to Harry potter and any successful series - look at how popular Dystopia became after Hunger Games.  
Interesting point about Erotica being just as hard to write as other genres - I'd never really thought about that - I assumed it would be easier because I've never read it and assumed it was thinly plotted and just revolved around the sex - a poor assumption on my part - I imagine it's like any genre, there are well crafted works and there are sub par works.  To be honest I could be accused of taking the easy option on my first two books as they are memoirs and there was no plotting or character development required.  Mind you it is hard to be funny!  

Thanks to all you writers for your varying views - I love a good debate.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

Lady Vine said:


> Of course the numbers for this are still huge, but people need to look at this with perspective. Harry Potter was largely a bricks and mortar release, with people camping outside bookshops for hours at midnight for their copies. The last book came out in 2007, five years before Fifty Shades. The act of buying the Harry Potter series was an experience in and of itself, and one many people - particularly children and parents - did in person. Not so much with Fifty Shades, which still has a stigma attached to it, like most erotica, and is most frequently bought online.
> 
> All this to say, Amazon's claim may well be accurate, but it only tells a fraction of the story.


The sad part is - no one has ever said Harry Potter was badly written, the complete opposite. I just finished reading On Writing by Stephen King, he says that JK´s writing is one of the best when it comes to back stories and incorporating them. I suppose it is no different for singers with bad talents and actors the same. They make it whereas there are others more talented then them that struggle for life.

There was a post about the fact that 50 shades is almost the same as Twilight. Never watched or read it and not about to start to do a comparison.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

I've been writing romance and erotica since the late 80s, early 90s, but a lot of my earlier stuff is not published or publishable, LOL!

I've written a lot of fanfic, both long and plotty with some steamy parts and some shorter works which are basically PWP (plot, what plot? or porn without plot) depending on your point of view   The audience for those knows what they are getting and I have readers and fans of both.

I've read all the Harry Potter books. Have never read Twilight or Shades of Grey and don't want to, both sound more abusive than romantic to me from excerpts I've seen online.

I read some Black Lace erotic books a while back and they were getting a bit repetitive; each book seemed to have a sex scene in each chapter. Maybe the publisher's guidelines had specified that, but you don't really need a sex scene in every chapter for a book to be erotic.

I write the books my characters want and if it's erotic, I don't shy away from that.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Annette_g said:


> I read some Black Lace erotic books a while back and they were getting a bit repetitive; each book seemed to have a sex scene in each chapter. Maybe the publisher's guidelines had specified that, but you don't really need a sex scene in every chapter for a book to be erotic.
> 
> I write the books my characters want and if it's erotic, I don't shy away from that.


Yes, one of the specifications of Black Lace 1.0 was that there was a high level of erotic content, preferably something in each chapter. I think Black Lace 2.0 is far more flexible on that point. Not all mine, these days, have sex in every chapter. They're relationship driven, and the couple in that relationship aren't having sex *all* the time...


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Mike_Author said:


> The long-term 'true believers' in romance/erotica who have been writing this stuff for years must look at this bubble with increasing levels of depression and anxiety


I don't believe there is an erotica bubble. Erotica goes through periods of crackdown/suppression. When there isn't crackdown/suppression, it might look like there is a bubble, but that's the level of real interest/sales that would be in place without restrictions. As to looking at an influx of writers into the genre with depression/anxiety, not at all. There has always been a sea of free erotica, some of it quite good. Yet I still make money. When I didn't make money, it was because of things I was doing as a writer, not what other writers or readers were doing.


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## Lana Amore (Oct 13, 2013)

Christa Wick said:


> I don't believe there is an erotica bubble. Erotica goes through periods of crackdown/suppression. When there isn't crackdown/suppression, it might look like there is a bubble, but that's the level of real interest/sales that would be in place without restrictions. As to looking at an influx of writers into the genre with depression/anxiety, not at all. There has always been a sea of free erotica, some of it quite good. Yet I still make money. When I didn't make money, it was because of things I was doing as a writer, not what other writers or readers were doing.


Yes, to all of this.


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## CRL (Nov 8, 2013)

The Kindle is really the last place I would go looking for erotica. Everything I've read has been the same bland cookie-cutter story.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Interesting point about Erotica being just as hard to write as other genres - I'd never really thought about that - I assumed it would be easier because I've never read it and assumed it was thinly plotted and just revolved around the sex


Even if it is thinly-plotted and revolves around sex, that doesn't make it easier. It's a character study, at its core, after all. The difficult part isn't what happens in what order; it's how the main character reacts to circumstances and ultimately changes. And that's what erotica is about, really. Sex isn't the change, but it *is* the vehicle that affects the change.

You say it's hard to write funny, and OMG, it is. It really is. I also think one of the biggest challenges any writer can face is writing *hot*. It's dang difficult to write about sex and have it come off as erotic instead of off-putting. Hence the wide variation in the quality of what's available--some people can do it well, and others think it's easy and dash off something for the cash.

But do I think there's a bubble? Nah. People have been reading erotic literature for a very long time, and they'll continue to do so. The culture surrounding erotica and erotic romance may change, but the demand will always remain.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Mike_Author said:


> I am also a music producer and have seen this with music genres. People get a whiff of the latest 'hot' genre and suddenly the market is clogged with lower and lower quality material. By the way, I am not saying all erotica is low quality, but I have checked samples of the popular ones and dear lord they are terribly written. The long-term 'true believers' in romance/erotica who have been writing this stuff for years must look at this bubble with increasing levels of depression and anxiety


Please remember that erotica has dynamics you never dealt with in music, Internet Marketers flooded the genre with poor quality ESL stories by the thousands. I'm not sure how it is after the last great suppression of erotica but those folks were everywhere you looked.

M


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## Lana Amore (Oct 13, 2013)

mrv01d said:


> Please remember that erotica has dynamics you never dealt with in music, Internet Marketers flooded the genre with poor quality ESL stories by the thousands. I'm not sure how it is after the last great suppression of erotica but those folks were everywhere you looked.
> 
> M


They were the ones with the most egregious/crude covers, SEO titles filled with now 'banned' words, so I think they were mostly purged, leaving the market better and less cluttered for the higher quality, 'writing for the love of it' authors. If that part of the bubble has popped, it's only inflated for those of us who do it because that's what we write.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I started writing erotic stories about 30 years ago, but I did it for my own entertainment.  I worked on this series off and on for over ten years since at that time, it was difficult to sell that type of writing.  When I found KDP, I polished it up and published this erotic series. It has been one of my best money makers and still sells well.

The key to writing erotic stories is not to get the reader bored with too many sex scenes.  Well written ones that work into the main story line are better and seem more natural. Well developed likeable characters are also a benefit.


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

Wild Rivers said:


> The key to writing erotic stories is not to get the reader bored with too many sex scenes. Well written ones that work into the main story line are better and seem more natural. Well developed likeable characters are also a benefit.


I think this is an excellent point. I'm working on my own erotica series, and have already realized (I'm very new to the genre) that too much sex actually becomes boring without enough character development between each romp. The sex works best when it's an exploration, even a revelation, of how two characters are interacting and growing together. The more intense the characterization, the more vivid their emotions, hangups, desires, fears and personalities, the hotter the sex.

As such, people who think erotica is easy or just about genitalia are confusing it with pornography. Erotica is as heavily dependent on vivid, creative characterization as any genre, and the very best of it gets people all hot under the collar because they're completely immersed in the author's world. If that's not the mark of excellent writing, I don't know what is.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Glenn Wood said:


> Interesting point about Erotica being just as hard to write as other genres - I'd never really thought about that - I assumed it would be easier because I've never read it and assumed it was thinly plotted and just revolved around the sex - a poor assumption on my part - I imagine it's like any genre, there are well crafted works and there are sub par works. To be honest I could be accused of taking the easy option on my first two books as they are memoirs and there was no plotting or character development required. Mind you it is hard to be funny!
> 
> Thanks to all you writers for your varying views - I love a good debate.


OK Glenn, I'll bite (in a good way). You've never read any erotica. Message me and I'll send you an Amazon coupon or a PDF of the first book in my Realm of Janos series so you can try some. You may or may not care for it, that's fine, erotica is a very personal thing, what works for one doesn't work for all, but I'm willing to bet it won't be what you've always thought erotica was.


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

Bubble bursting? Eh, doubt it. Our society (read American society) has become increasingly voyeuristic over the last 20 years. Think about Real World on MTV so many years ago and now all these reality TV shows. We have become obsessed with pulling back the veil of privacy. Fiction, like any art form will typically reflect societal trends if not lead them. The explosion of erotica (read: the explicit sex) is a reflection of the times.

To answer the question, I began writing porn, erotica and romance/suspense/mystery with erotic elements back in late 2010 and published my first piece in March of 2011. Literary Porn is just about sex. It's porn and should not be confused with erotica. Erotica typically has some type of character development and plot to varying degrees. Then there is erotic romance, erotic suspense and so on with lots of plot and character development and a focus on the relationship developing between the character with a love interest until there is an explicit climax or multiple climaxes... 

Well, that's my definition anyway. Oh, and trust me, writing erotica is not easy. The writer needs to be very in tune with the sensual and emotional side of sex and passion. If they are not it will show in the writing. My first attempt, Trade Banging, flopped. Now, when I write erotica my readers contact me on Facebook and want the characters' romance to evolve and mature along with more sex.

Read some bad erotica and you will see how it is EASY to screw it up. Check out www.nifty.org


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## Kitty French (Dec 3, 2012)

I have no problem saying I moved across to writing erotic after fifty shades, and I'm thankful every day to that book for taking the erotic romance market mainstream. Before writing erotic I wrote (and still write) steamy romantic comedy under a separate pseudonym, so it wasn't a huge genre leap. At the moment, my erotic books far out sell my romantic comedy.

Is it easy? No! 
Do I love it? Yes! 
Does it bug me that it's looked down on by some, and considered easy by others? A little bit, every now and then. 
Do I think the bubble will burst? Not on your life. 

I was at a readers & authors convention last week and saw for myself the strength of feeling amongst erotic romance readers. This market is strong and its readers are voracious, smart, passionate women.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Glenn Wood said:


> Wow some interesting discussion here. I do think there has been some bandwagon jumping after 50 shades but the same applies to Harry potter and any successful series - look at how popular Dystopia became after Hunger Games.
> Interesting point about Erotica being just as hard to write as other genres - I'd never really thought about that - I assumed it would be easier because I've never read it and assumed it was thinly plotted and just revolved around the sex - a poor assumption on my part - I imagine it's like any genre, there are well crafted works and there are sub par works. To be honest I could be accused of taking the easy option on my first two books as they are memoirs and there was no plotting or character development required. Mind you it is hard to be funny!
> 
> Thanks to all you writers for your varying views - I love a good debate.


What you're describing appears to be porn for men, pizza delivery man shows up and delivers more than pizza.






Perhaps one of the erotica authors can provide more information, but my understanding of erotica on Amazon and the big sellers like 50 Shades (well that's like beyond big seller) is that there needs to be a story, it can't be just all about the sex.

Erotic images carved in stone 7,000 years ago have been discovered, and the first erotic printed stories are hundreds of years old, so I doubt the bubble will burst. Maybe certain sub-genres lose steam (pun) but overall the genre will go on rocking. Vampires come and go in popularity since Bram Stocker published Dracula, but there is always new horror books being published.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

The definition of erotica versus porn versus steamy romance and all that is regularly debated among those of us who write it.  One man's porn is another's erotica is another's spawn of Satan.

Generally, however, there is some sort of plot or character development that runs through an erotica, where there is little or even none in "porn".  There isn't any distinction on Amazon, since it is all in the erotica category together with no sub-headings.  The intent of erotica (or porn) is to arouse and titillate.  That's different from say, a mystery novel that happens to have some sex scenes or a non-fiction sex manual.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't know where this quote came from, but it was a fun distinction between erotica and porn:

"Erotica is using a feather, porn is using the whole chicken."


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2013)

I started writing erotic short stories back in 2009. I think worked on my first erotic novel under the name Erin Lark in late 2011, which then was contracted by a publisher. I wrote for close to a year, took a few months off, and am now back writing shorts on the side while I focus on my YA series.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CRL said:


> The Kindle is really the last place I would go looking for erotica. Everything I've read has been the same bland cookie-cutter story.


Hmmmm. This has not been my experience. I have found all kinds of erotica and none of it was cookie cutter. My search depends on what I want at that moment. Do I want Billionaires/straight/bi/gay/BDSM/vanilla/werewolf/vampire? 
And I think erotica would be one of the harder things to write. (No pun intended.)
Ok this leads me to another question. How is Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake Series sold openly? After the first five books she is straight up p0rn.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I was part of the first wave of erotic fiction and romance to hit fairly big in 1995. That was when all the NY publishers opened erotic lines to grasp the success that small epub companys like Ellora's Cave were having.  Lots of books came out very quickly, then the cream rose to the top, and those who didn't make it big fell away.  Me, being one of them.

Then 50 Shades came along, and it made erotic go mainstream. And all the publishers wanted it, and all the smart indie authors published it on their own.  Lots of good authors made it big (Sylvia Day would be one of those), and now it's dying down again, and those who were out with it first have been successful and those publishing now, I find, are not having the huge successes that two years brought.

This is how all publishing works. There are ebbs and flows. Something's popular for a while then it dies off, and something else becomes popular.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I wrote erotica long before 50 Shades came along (and I'm rather nonplussed by readers who say, "You're copying 50 Shades!" *snerk* Check the publication date??) and I'll continue to write it long after 50 Shades is a blip on the radar, something that will pop up on some "Where are they now?" segment of a talk show. *I don't believe EL James will ever write anything like it again - because writing fanfiction and writing books are two different things. She was being fed via the fanfic machine and that's what drove her to write. Without it, I don't think she'll thrive.* Fan letters are nice, but it isn't the same as the immediate feedback of writing fanfic.
> 
> <snip>
> Do I take offense to people who don't understand erotica or erotica writing? No. Many people who haven't read anything, let alone tried to write anything in the genre often say things like, "Oh, it's easy," or "There's no plot, just sex!" *Or they equate BDSM with abuse. Or they think Fifty Shades was an example of the actual BDSM lifestyle. (Bwahahahaha!)* I usually let those people think what they like. No sense trying to argue with someone not even willing to investigate the genre they're talking about. I don't write sci-fi, but I also don't say, "Oh, writing about spaceships and aliens? Easy-peasy! You just make all the stuff up! How hard is it?!" (Rebuttal from sci-fi writers in 3...2...1...)
> ...


Amen and amen.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Selena_Kitt said:


> That used to be the definition of "kinky."
> 
> I wrote erotica long before 50 Shades came along (and I'm rather nonplussed by readers who say, "You're copying 50 Shades!" *snerk* Check the publication date??) and I'll continue to write it long after 50 Shades is a blip on the radar, something that will pop up on some "Where are they now?" segment of a talk show. I don't believe EL James will never write anything like it again - because writing fanfiction and writing books are two different things. She was being fed via the fanfic machine and that's what drove her to write. Without it, I don't think she'll thrive. Fan letters are nice, but it isn't the same as the immediate feedback of writing fanfic.
> 
> ...


What will become of EL James as an author? Only time will tell, but unless she's MC Hammer bad with money, EL James is set for life. Not too shabby.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

In which way is it a bandwagon? Sex sells, always has done and always will do. One of my ex girlfriends read an erotic story website, ( am I allowed to name it? ) for years.  She found the stories more appealing than watching porn movies. The day that erotic stories stop selling is the day that sex stops selling, that will be roughly the same day as Armageddon.

I was amazed at the amount of stories and sub gens on that site. I reckon there must have been about 30,000 on there about 8 years ago. That was a site where people wrote for the fun of it. I've no doubt now some of them are now writing ebooks instead. 

I used to write for a dating site, one set of stories was of the humorous escapades that people got into through internet dating. That was at it's best in the early Noughties as it was still fresh and new. Now it's quite mainstream and some of the Wild West element has disappeared. I also wrote erotica that went down a storm, fun at the time. On the other hand I watched as people got sucked into the darkside of the internet. Maybe there's a story there but I'm not in the mood to write it just now. I stopped writing for the site as I was getting sickened by what was occurring around me. 

This period was around 2002-2006. Vast amounts of edgy erotica was being loaded every single day. Authors that understand that market will build a following that will be loyal forever. That's in spite of the vast amount of free erotica that's already available. Why? It's because every individual has a unique "hot button" so to speak and they will hunt out the provider that provides it and stick with them, as long as the quality is maintained. Sex sells, and they will pay the 99 cents or whatever to access that material.

50 Shades was a Supernova in a vast galaxy, it's burning out and the millions of stars surrounding it are shining bright again. Of all the genres that will perform to the "write more" ethos and business plan erotica is the one that is sure to succeed for those who have the ability, the talent, and most of all the consistency. There will be plenty that dabble and disappear. Stay in it for the long run and you'll get results.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

EvieWeevie said:


> Ardin,
> 
> do you mean it's easier to sell non-erotic romance or is the romance erotic as well?


The romance is erotic as well


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

Ardin, are your romances full length novels or novellas? or short stories like with erotica? Thanks! I've been practicing my erotica chops and so far I suck, haha, but I love writing romance.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

portiadacosta said:


> Yes, one of the specifications of Black Lace 1.0 was that there was a high level of erotic content, preferably something in each chapter. I think Black Lace 2.0 is far more flexible on that point. Not all mine, these days, have sex in every chapter. They're relationship driven, and the couple in that relationship aren't having sex *all* the time...


If you want to read erotic romance done right, get one of Portia's books.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Jill James said:


> If you want to read erotic romance done right, get one of Portia's books.


I concur. I started reading Portia's books years and years ago. She put Black Lace on the map IMHO.


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## Nessa Quill (Jul 16, 2011)

Annette_g said:


> I don't know where this quote came from, but it was a fun distinction between erotica and porn:
> 
> "Erotica is using a feather, porn is using the whole chicken."


Never heard this quote before, but I absolutely love it! 

Thanks for sharing.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

E-readers are the perfect vehicle for publishing erotica, because it allows the reader to consume material in public without displaying for the world what they're reading. No reader has to worry about toting around books with porn covers on them, or getting judgmental glances on the bus, on the train, or in the employee cafeteria during lunch hour.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Or they equate BDSM with abuse. Or they think Fifty Shades was an example of the actual BDSM lifestyle. (Bwahahahaha!)


That's not just a failure of EL James. I doubt there are more than a handful of stories out there which get BDSM right. I agree though that she probably will be a once-off. But looking at what Fifty Shades netted her, that's all she needed if she invests carefully.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Selena_Kitt said:


> I started out at Lit.  Unless you're talking about storiesonline?


Yes it was Lit, I was intrigued when my ex said that many ladies enjoyed the freedom of imagination that the written word brings, as distinct from the everything out there than men tend to enjoy.

Naturally all my knowledge of this area was for research purposes only. That's my story and I'm sticking by it.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

theblether said:


> Yes it was Lit,


Geeeeez, I remember when that site was just starting up. I was ghostwriting a smexy column for an adult website that isn't around anymore. We all kinda went, "Really? A free erotica website? Erm, ok, good luck with that." But it became very popular and it's still around. Who knew?


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

LBrent said:


> Geeeeez, I remember when that site was just starting up. I was ghostwriting a smexy column for an adult website that isn't around anymore. We all kinda went, "Really? A free erotica website? Erm, ok, good luck with that." But it became very popular and it's still around. Who knew?


Correct, I hadn't looked at it for a while before this thread reminded me. It looks like it hasn't changed much. Check out the Alexa ranking.....

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/literotica.com

Number 2232 worldwide, ranked 945 in the US. That's good ranking figures.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

theblether said:


> Correct, I hadn't looked at it for a while before this thread reminded me. It looks like it hasn't changed much. Check out the Alexa ranking.....
> 
> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/literotica.com
> 
> Number 2232 worldwide, ranked 945 in the US. That's good ranking figures.


Wow. That was not long after Persian Kitty got big, also Green Guy and a few other big sites in adult. Back when Yahoo was the Google of adult sites and DMOZ either wasn't born or was just a baby.

Sheesh, I'm old.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

LBrent said:


> Wow. That was not long after Persian Kitty got big, also Green Guy and a few other big sites in adult. Back when Yahoo was the Google of adult sites and DMOZ either wasn't born or was just a baby.
> 
> Sheesh, I'm old.


  As I mentioned earlier those were the Wild West days on the internet. Thinking that we were highly modern with our dial up connections, taking an eternity to load pages. These days you say to kids,"I remember the days before the internet" and they look at you as if you've just landed from Mars.

Sheesh, now I'm feeling old too.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

LBrent said:


> Wow. That was not long after Persian Kitty got big, also Green Guy and a few other big sites in adult. Back when Yahoo was the Google of adult sites and DMOZ either wasn't born or was just a baby.
> 
> Sheesh, I'm old.


I had an adult site that got featured at the top of Persian Kitty's daily recommendations back in the day when her site was "the" site for sussing out the best porn. The minute she put us on the list, the traffic nearly took the server down.

Remember the old search engines that were big back in the day? AltaVista? HotBot? WebCrawler? Lycos? Infoseek? Or even (gasp!) Northern Light?

Yeah, I'm old, too.

Of course, when I started using the internet, when you "logged in" all you got was a dot prompt. You had to know Unix to get around. There was no such thing as a graphical browser. Then, along came... Mosaic!

w00t!


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

*cough*

Compuserve and Prodigy and TelNet and IRC and ICQ on an old 286 with those big black floppies, running like Windows 3.1 on less than half a gig (circa 1995) and AOL kept dialing for HOURS to connect ($400/month bills were nothing)...Anyone, anyone?


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

My first Internet was compuserve. I remember using a bunch of different search engines to see who gave best results. I also read lit erotica back in highschool.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

LBrent said:


> *cough*
> 
> Compuserve and Prodigy and TelNet and IRC and ICQ on an old 286 with those big black floppies, running like Windows 3.1 on less than half a gig (circa 1995) and AOL kept dialing for HOURS to connect ($400/month bills were nothing)...Anyone, anyone?


Ah yes, my first email address was something like [email protected] compuserve.com, and it was so high tech.


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## 72263 (Sep 10, 2013)

Speaking of the 90s on the internet and erotica: The Perv's Guide to the Internet, anyone? I found a copy in a used bookstore a few years ago and got it. It's both informative and adorable, in that there's a lot of references to mailing lists as well as well the tip that it's better to send jpgs than bmps because of the massive size difference while there's no real loss of quality and we have to think about the bandwidth!

It also contained some Usenet groups about erotica, including some with a tentaclefocus. Erotica is definitely here to stay, online and offline.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

^^ I agree. 

An interesting stat I picked up on my travels was the level of female viewership of porn, and what type of porn they were drawn too. I was amazed to read that a certain specialist subject had a 56% female audience. I couldn't believe the figure and found it elsewhere. I'll let you speculate as to which "speciality" it was. 

The relevance to authors in that genre is who you think you're target audience is, and who is actually reading your book, can often be wildly different. I'm now questioning myself as to why I know so much about this subject. If my mother ever finds out I'm a dead man.  

ps. A good guide to which porn sites are being viewed can be found at sextracker.com


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## Ella Blythe (Oct 25, 2013)

theblether said:


> ^^ I agree.
> 
> An interesting stat I picked up on my travels was the level of female viewership of porn, and what type of porn they were drawn too. I was amazed to read that a certain specialist subject had a 56% female audience. I couldn't believe the figure and found it elsewhere. I'll let you speculate as to which "speciality" it was.
> 
> ...


Oooh. That's quite interesting - the bit about finding out which types of porn are attracting a female-majority audience right now. I should look into that for future reference!

As for the OP's questions, I pretty much agree with everything Ms. Kitt has already said. I've been writing erotica for more than a decade, but had never tried selling it before recently; I became good at it (I'm told) by writing it for the men in my life, especially a long-distance fiancé (yes, it kept the home fires burnin'!). It does irk me occasionally when I hear or read someone opining that it must be "easy" to write, because as so many others have already said, there's a significant challenge in not boring the daylights out of your reader. It's perhaps "easy" to just write a PWP sex scene outright. It's quite another to write a scene that can _genuinely _raise the temperature in the room. And it's fun to challenge oneself to do that time and again, and explore ways of doing so.

I just saw another thread somewhere here about the "YA Bubble," so I think there's some truth in the argument about over-saturation and various things wearing out their welcome. But everything happens in cycles, so I can't see many storytelling genres becoming completely defunct, and I daresay erotica might have a leg up on others because - again, as others have said - sex sells. Always has, _probably _always will. If anything, while the crackdowns on Amazon and the like have made it more difficult on the writers to get their stuff out there, it may have helped to up the quality of what's getting through the net (...one can hope?) and could serve to whet the appetite of readers a bit more, rather than the force-feeding that may have been going on for a short while there.

There was a famous quotation by Marilyn Monroe, which I will now botch terribly, I'm sure, but it gets the idea across: When asked what she thought about sex, Ms. Monroe thought about it for a moment and then replied, *"I think it's here to stay."*


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm anxiously waiting for the "bubble" bubble to burst. That word is being so overused these days. Not everything is a bubble. Something can be a trend and not be a bubble. Something can be popular and not be a bubble. Hey, something can be a bubble and not be a bubble.

Wow, I just blew my own mind.


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

Kitty French said:


> I have no problem saying I moved across to writing erotic after fifty shades, and I'm thankful every day to that book for taking the erotic romance market mainstream. Before writing erotic I wrote (and still write) steamy romantic comedy under a separate pseudonym, so it wasn't a huge genre leap. At the moment, my erotic books far out sell my romantic comedy.
> 
> Is it easy? No!
> Do I love it? Yes!
> ...


Bubble? We don't need no stinking bubble!

There is no bubble. Anything who thinks there is a bubble hasn't been paying much attention to the Amazon Best Selling lists lately. You can call it erotica or the more fashionable "contemporary romance" ... but it still sells very well.

The key is exactly what Kitty said above ... *voracious* readers.

I for one have found them in droves. 

Summer Daniels
author of Summer's Journey (yes - an erotic series)
admin of WTRAFSOG - https://www.facebook.com/WhatToReadAfter50ShadesOfGrey


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I'm gonna cry.  I wanted some bubbles with my erotica.  Does this mean I must stop taking bubble baths or stop reading in the bubble bath?  
Please tell me I can have bubbles.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

There, there... you can get bubbles in a nice sparkly wine glass...


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

[Soup Nazi voice]

No bubbles for YOU!

BTW, there's a kink around bubbles, also balloons, it's 2-fold. One kink is around the look on the woman's face when the bubbles/balloons pop. The other kink is about "expansion".

Oh, and there's a women's Ked sneaker kink, too. That one you'll have to Google to believe. (Think "hand service" with the assistance of the sneakers.)


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Rule 34.  If it exists, there IS porn of it.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

AndreSanThomas said:


> Rule 34. If it exists, there IS porn of it.


Does that mean there's a porn version of Rule 34?


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Rule 35- If there isn't, it's only a matter of time.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Duane Gundrum said:


> Does that mean there's a porn version of Rule 34?


WOAH. That's Inception-level stuff right there. LOL


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Has the Erotic Fiction bubble burst?

_(And he swings at the this big fat set up coming across the plate...)
_

*No, but it may have reached a climax.*

(I'm so very sorry...)


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## angelperezfreeman (Jan 2, 2013)

sad


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

> Rule 34. If it exists, there IS porn of it


I was surprised enough by furry, centaur and sasquatch porn. And now we have...dinosaurs.


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## polecat (Oct 18, 2013)

> I doubt there are more than a handful of stories out there which get BDSM right


But it's so much fun to get it wrong! (whines)


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

polecat said:


> But it's so much fun to get it wrong! (whines)


For people whose sexuality that is?


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Gutman said:


> Has the Erotic Fiction bubble burst?
> 
> _(And he swings at the this big fat set up coming across the plate...)
> _
> ...


You win the thread.


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## Jay Walken (Feb 7, 2013)

Burst? Climaxed?

Maybe, but help is at hand.

Santa Claus is COMING to town.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Jay Walken said:


> Maybe, but help is at hand.
> Santa Claus is COMING to town.


But remember, Santa comes only once a year.


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

scslawin said:


> But remember, Santa comes only once a year.


Yes - but Santa also knows where all the bad girls live.

Lucky guy.


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