# A Gentle Warning about KDP Select



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Amazon's confirmed that rentals through Prime do count toward paid rankings. This means those getting the rentals will increase your exposure, however much or little...and those that don't risk having the reverse.










That's a chart of Dance of Cloaks's sales ranking, which I opted into the KDP program initially before opting out during the three day grace period. It pretty much speaks for itself. You can see where the downward slope begins...oh look, that's when the Select program started. Aaaand you can see pretty much exactly when I opted out.

So those wishing to maintain high rankings yet not enter the program, well...

It just got harder. I'm not a very happy person right now.


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## Skate (Jan 23, 2011)

That's what I was worried might happen. It makes no difference to me, I'm not selling much anyway, but it seems to me that from now on rankings won't mean much at all. If a really good author doesn't opt in, then their rankings are going to suffer. Not fair. I really can't see where they're going with this. Surely they'd make more money from the good authors than they will from this scheme? Or is the idea that they'll pick up all the good authors in their select program and shake out the rest of us with this game?

(I didn't opt in.)


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, it definitely got harder. 

I look at this way. The last time I checked, there were 92K books in Select. That's 92K books less in SW, Kobo, etc. I'll continue to promote Kindle, but I'll put more effort into the other venues.


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## sarracannon (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this information. This is exactly what I was worried about.   It's very scary really. I don't want to take my books off of B&N and other outlets to place all my eggs in the Amazon basket just yet, but now I've seen a definite dip in sales just in the past two days. It's already been difficult to keep sales up lately without a new release, but now I'm afraid it's just gotten a TON harder. /sigh. Guess I need to work that much harder on getting my next book ready to go. It's amazing how quickly things change in the world of Indie publishing.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

David, I'm confused by your data. Are you saying that if you don't have a lot of rentals your ranking will suffer? I only have a small amount of rentals, but I haven't noticed any drop at all.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Here is a little tidbit that might make you feel better from the American Publishers Association:

Additionally, Trade publishing houses cite e-Books as generating fresh consumer interest in--and new revenue streams for--"backlist" titles, books that have been in print for at least a year. Many publishers report that e-Book readers who enjoy a newly-released book will frequently buy an author's full backlist.

http://www.publishers.org/press/30/
Or it might not.


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

I am not opting into this deranged scheme of Amazon's. My rankings may be lower, but I'm still selling the same, if not better.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Half-Orc,

Help. I'm lost. I love data and I hate having good data in front of me when I don't understand it. Can you give us the times you took action? When you opted in? When you opted out? Time of any other significant action? Thanks.


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## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Yes, what Terrence said. AND could you please point us to where Amazon confirmed that borrowed books would count toward sales ranking?

I opted IN, and so far, I've got a lot of rentals. I would, of course, LOVE to know for sure that those rentals aren't cannibalizing my sales ranking.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Robert E. Keller said:


> David, I'm confused by your data. Are you saying that if you don't have a lot of rentals your ranking will suffer? I only have a small amount of rentals, but I haven't noticed any drop at all.


Rentals count as sales. Simple as that. So when I opted in: boom, along with my normal sales, I had additional rentals. Ranking improves. I opt out: poof, ranking starts to climb. But there's more to it than that. Lots and lots of books above me, and below me, are getting rentals that are counting as sales. That's inflating everything.

Let me put it this way. Dance of Cloaks had its "sales" increase by about 20% from this program. That's gone, and part of the climb. But think of the flipside. I know many, many people in this program around the 700-1000 range, and they're seeing 10-15 rentals a day. So their sales are going up 10-20%. By opting out, I no longer have that potential boost, whereas many, many other people do. I'm at a disadvantage now as those people climb. I sell 80 in a day, you sell 80 in a day, but you have 12 rentals, congratz, you're now ranked higher than I am in the paid rankings and bestseller lists.

Now let's stop and think about what happens if one of the big six actually agrees to join the lending library, and has *their* rentals count as sales...

This is only made all the more frustrating because I asked the lady from Amazon *twice* whether or not they would count as paid sales, and was told both times no. Then I ask in an email today, and I'm politely told sorry if I had the wrong impression, but they do.

Right now I'm just hoping a lot of these are Kindle Fire owners, and once the free month ends, the overall rentals drop. Yeah, selfish, I know...

*edit*

Terrance, the program began Thursday, and I was opted in by Amazon whenever it launched. You can see the sharp improvement in ranking very shortly after. And I opted out on Friday, about 1 pm, but I noticed it took a couple hours for it to no longer show the prime eligible. Take a look at Friday, 4 pm. Ranking starts to rise almost immediately.

Is it possible sales dropped just because I was no longer in that 40,000 or whatever strong lending library? Sure. And will there always be a couple rentals that might have just been sales? sure. But I've also got an email from a lady at Amazon saying rentals count as sales, and it doesn't take too much to figure out that's going to have an affect.

edit 2: response from Amazon, via email:



> Hi David,
> 
> My apologies if there was a misunderstanding They do in fact count towards rankings. It's not an error.
> 
> ...


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

horse_girl said:


> I am not opting into this deranged scheme of Amazon's. My rankings may be lower, but I'm still selling the same, if not better.


That's everyone's choice to opt in or not, and of course, you can rely on B&N's rankings, itunes, Sony's, KOBO's, or Smashwords.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh, and I'll say right now: I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm waaaaaaaaay wrong, and reading into things. Just the sharp drop, and sharp climb, both coinciding, just put me very much on edge. As I'm watching my rank worsen, I'm sitting here wondering just how far it'll go before I start thinking about opting back in...


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## Ryne Billings (May 15, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Oh, and I'll say right now: I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm waaaaaaaaay wrong, and reading into things. Just the sharp drop, and sharp climb, both coinciding, just put me very much on edge. As I'm watching my rank worsen, I'm sitting here wondering just how far it'll go before I start thinking about opting back in...


You changed your name. Wow.

Random, I know.

And I have to admit that it's tempting to opt back in after you find out about this. But in my honest opinion, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Your ranking might drop a little for now, but what does it really matter? With the Shadowdance Trilogy in Select, wouldn't you still drop in ranking for your other books?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

The algorithms have been messed with again, this time in favor of indies who opt in. You can still check your sales against borrows on KDP. The rankings have always been to benefit Amazon and always will be. It's their game. I'm playing.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Now it is almost a gentle "forcing" to get people to opt in by threatening their hard earned rankings.  This is sad and I hope that when they work the kinks out of this fairly new venture, they change this.  They shouldn't be punishing the very people who are the lifeblood of their ebook revenues.


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## Ardyth (Oct 13, 2010)

The whole thing worries me, but if my sales on other sites remain near zero (I've only had one on Smashwords, none on B&N despite promoting them as much as the amazon links) I really will be tempted to try my next book 90 days in the program... sigh.  What worries me is that you can't even give away review copies while in the program, and that it's putting a lot of faith in just one system to sell you... limiting readers only to people who have kindles.  That just doesn't feel right.

I'm sad I came to this game so late, just last month, but I'll make the best of it I can.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Now let's stop and think about what happens if one of the big six actually agrees to join the lending library, and has *their* rentals count as sales..."_

Equally interesting is the Big 6 book that does not opt-in. It falls in rank. This thing has handicapped every Big 6 book in ranking lists.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2011)

When I saw the name of the creator of this thread I thought someone was trolling as Dalglish. I'm still not convinced I'm not right. Why are you trying to drive people into the lending program, huh?


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Thanks for sharing this, David.

KDP Select reminds me of the Amazon Breakout Novel Award. I entered that in 2009 thinking it was a regular writing contest, only to find out that it was really a way to steer unpublished writers to CreateSpace. At first I was disillusioned like that kid Ralphie in _A Christmas Story _ when he finds out his Little Orphan Annie Secret Circle Decoder Pin is just a crummy advertising ploy. Then, after I submitted to yet another agent and got back a really sweet rejection letter (best rejection letter I ever got--it's hanging on my wall with my other faves), I decided to take another look at CreateSpace. Best thing I ever did for my writing. So I'm glad for ABNA, best crummy advertising ploy ever. Perhaps KDP Select will be more of the same. I hope so.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

I think, if this theory is true, Amazon implemented this feature in order to ensure that top books don't falter thanks to a flurry of rentals taking away from actual sales. I don't think Amazon was trying to force anyone to opt in by decreasing any rankings. It appears it might not be a perfectly fair system, though. But what system is? As writers, we need to keep adjusting to what comes along. The system is going to change now and then, and sometimes we won't like it. Writers who opt out will have the advantage of being able to sell on other outlets--an advantage I currently lack for all of my books. That's your advantage. Mine is being able to go free for five days and pick up rentals. Pick your poison and your pears. That's life.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

If Amazon wants to dilute their own sales ranking and bestseller lists, best of luck to them. I mean, what are we really talking about here? What books are people more likely to borrow? The ones they don't want to spend money on, right?

I don't think Amazon really thought that one through, or they thought it through just enough to exploit it while they can. "Join the lending library! Your rentals will shoot you through the roof!"

Well, that's all well and good for exclusive authors, but those who don't want the exclusive bindings? We're still in the middle somewhere.

I don't feel this is necessarily the best thing for readers, either. Diluting "bestseller" status with free rentals is like combining free downloads and paid sales and using that for New York Times list consideration. Books--even ones that many people won't risk their money on--will fly up through the list as if people had bought their copies, giving a false sense of popularity for titles. I think Amazon's non-Prime customers stand to waste even more money due to this "feature".

As far as Big 6 books falling in ranking, this won't happen to the superstars. Perhaps the end goal of this program is to force even more traditional authors away from the Big 6, the ones who are actually likely to leave--our equivalent counterparts in traditional publishing, the midlisters and those who cannot get new deals, AKA the authors who could go indie with a gentle enough shove. I mean, the big names make big money for the Big 6, but the Big 6 still require the "lesser" authors to keep afloat. Maybe this sort of thing will make a big enough ripple to make these mid-range authors rethink the decision and abandon the traditional publishers.

Who knows, we could speculate all day. Still nothing definite and no data to consider, so we'll have to wait and see.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Man, they're really pushing this thing.  Not really surprising, I suppose, but still.  Hmm.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Equally interesting is the Big 6 book that does not opt-in. It falls in rank. This thing has handicapped every Big 6 book in ranking lists.


To me it seems almost like an attempt to make the Big 6 sign up for lending by pushing indie books up in the rankings.


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## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Yes, it definitely got harder.
> 
> I look at this way. The last time I checked, there were 92K books in Select. That's 92K books less in SW, Kobo, etc. I'll continue to promote Kindle, but I'll put more effort into the other venues.


Hi Margaret, I couldn't agree with you more. We all need Amazon, but not as much as they think we do...

Up until the Select program, I promoted almost exclusively toward Amazon. Now, I've pulled 1/2 my "eggs" out of that basket and am currently promoting in the other baskets, such as B&N, SW, Sony, Kobo, etc. I've already noticed a nice movement in sales from those new avenues. I think if I keep working hard at building those new resources, I shouldn't have to worry about what crap Amazon will pull next. Yay me


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

Sigh...I really hate this thing. I'm never going to say never about anything, but...I still think this program is a bad idea. Amazon shouldn't have a monopoly over the book world, and that's what they're aiming for. It's bad for other book stores, and I think it'll be bad for authors in the long run because what happens when Amazon has their monopoly, and then all of a sudden they're allowed to change the rules? The percentages we get? The terms of agreement? Who's to stop them? I've said it on another thread, but the best thing we can do is encourage Smashwords and BN to be more competitive.

My sales have gone up at ARe and BN since KDP Select was announced. I did have a dip in sales the first two days of KDP select, but I'm back up to where I always am today. I think the sales ranking thing is just adding to the panic of indies, thinking this is something they _need_ to do or their careers will be over. Just sit back and relax and see what happens.

(Sorry about your rankings, David. You'll bounce back. Your books are too good not to).


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

ChristopherDavidPetersen said:


> Hi Margaret, I couldn't agree with you more. We all need Amazon, but not as much as they think we do...
> 
> Up until the Select program, I promoted almost exclusively toward Amazon. Now, I've pulled 1/2 my "eggs" out of that basket and am currently promoting in the other baskets, such as B&N, SW, Sony, Kobo, etc. I've already noticed a nice movement in sales from those new avenues. I think if I keep working hard at building those new resources, I shouldn't have to worry about what crap Amazon will pull next. Yay me


http://circleofsorcerers.latenitebooks.com <- I've been promoting Amazon, B&N, Smashwords, and iTunes. I may reorganize that landing page a little bit once I'm sure of a permanent home on Sony, Kobo, and the rest. Maybe make my Amazon links a little smaller to make room...


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## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> http://circleofsorcerers.latenitebooks.com <- I've been promoting Amazon, B&N, Smashwords, and iTunes. I may reorganize that landing page a little bit once I'm sure of a permanent home on Sony, Kobo, and the rest. Maybe make my Amazon links a little smaller to make room...


Wow Brain, that one heck of a nice looking web page  Great job!

BTW - I haven't set up with iTunes yet. I heard it was a pain. Any truth to the rumor?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

ChristopherDavidPetersen said:


> Wow Brain, that one heck of a nice looking web page  Great job!
> 
> BTW - I haven't set up with iTunes yet. I heard it was a pain. Any truth to the rumor?


It depends; I don't go directly to iTunes, I go through Smashwords for distribution there. So, as to that question, it can be easy or difficult, people have had both extremes and everything between. It's not as easy as KDP to distribute to Smashwords, but it handles numerous retailers.

Edit: Oh, and thank you for the complement.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

I see your point, David, and it sounds like a legitimate fear/concern.  I have not opted in with any books yet, and in the past two days my sales have increased slightly, as have my rankings. It can't help but have a negative effect - the question is whether it is a very small one or a large one. It actually depends on what Amazon does with the rankings and how big a factor raw ranking number is in driving all their other algorithms.  I don't think we can know that at this point.  But if borrows contribute to rankings but NOT to also boughts and some of the other ways amazon puts things in front of customers, it will have a negligible effect on sales of those who opt out.

I should note that to the extent that opting in increases sales due to extra visibility or the ability to go free, it will obviously help books that have opted in, which means a bit less space for those that haven't. But those are indirect effects.  The direct effects are what we don't know about at this point and may be difficult to determine.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't fully understand it yet.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

foreverjuly said:


> When I saw the name of the creator of this thread I thought someone was trolling as Dalglish. I'm still not convinced I'm not right. Why are you trying to drive people into the lending program, huh?


Rofl, something I pondered about for awhile. I made the username Half-Orc when I veeery first started, not really thinking that it'd be what everyone saw. I tried signing every post David Dalglish, but that felt stupid and oddly egotistical. Then I thought to switch to just my name, but every old post in existence refers to me as Half-Orc, therefore people might not understand who people are talking about. So now I've got this compromise, so I can pretend to be all professional yet still reveal I'm a dungeons and dragons nerd.


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## 25803 (Oct 24, 2010)

David,

On the books I did NOT opt-in, my sales and rankings have almost exactly mirrored yours.  I opted in with a novella, which has had no sales and no borrows during this period and the ranking slowly grew worse throughout the time.  My thoughts were that pre-weekend, there had been a slight sales slow-down, so each sale meant more in terms of rankings.  On Friday afternoon I presumed there were more people buying, thus the sales didn't mean as much in terms of ranking and my ranking grew worse with about the same number of sales as the day or so before.  But I'm not a numbers geek, so I could be far off on this assumption.


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## sarracannon (Apr 19, 2011)

LilianaHart said:


> what happens when Amazon has their monopoly, and then all of a sudden they're allowed to change the rules? The percentages we get? The terms of agreement? Who's to stop them?


I completely agree with this fear. Since it seems Amazon already has a major market share of the ebook market, we are already under their thumb, so to speak. They can (and do) change their algorithms when they want and without notice, they change their programs and promotions, and they introduce new things like the KDP select somewhat out of the blue. We as Indies have to learn to adapt and conquer. But it's definitely a scary thought that with the low prices on their new lineup of hardware and the push toward exclusivity, Amazon might wrestle even MORE of the market share. The more power they have, the more damaging it will be to all of us if/when they decide to lower royalty rates, force exclusivity, and the like. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it's impossible to predict what they will do in the future.

I've been feeling tense ever since they announced the Select program. I certainly can't blame anyone for opting in, but the more we rely on Amazon as our only source of income, the more power they have to screw us. I have to just sigh and understand that this is part of the world we live in now. The ability to self-publish comes with risks. The best we can do is make decisions that work for us and keep writing.


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## jhanel (Dec 22, 2010)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Rofl, something I pondered about for awhile. I made the username Half-Orc when I veeery first started, not really thinking that it'd be what everyone saw. I tried signing every post David Dalglish, but that felt stupid and oddly egotistical. Then I thought to switch to just my name, but every old post in existence refers to me as Half-Orc, therefore people might not understand who people are talking about. So now I've got this compromise, so I can pretend to be all professional yet still reveal I'm a dungeons and dragons nerd.


We run a game every other week. If you're ever in Tulsa, give me a shout. =) You'd be a welcome bit part for an adventure.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

This is the 9000 pound gorilla playing with indies. I'd expect more of this. And if the gorilla keeps getting bigger, expect things to tilt more and more in favor of the gorilla. 

Also, I do think lends should count towards something. Each Prime user gets one per month. Choosing where to spend it should indicate something. It's not downloads of a free book.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I'm not comfortable with exclusives, either, but Amazon provides 99% of my sales so it's obvious who is buttering my bread. I have almost nothing to lose by signing up, an unknown quantity to gain, and whatever happens, it can be over in three months. As opposed to signing up with a print publisher and having to live with your decision for the next seven years.

A Kindle book can be read on nearly every platform, and since my book is DRM-free, it can be converted to be read on a nook, Kobo, Sony, and any other epub-compatible device. 

So far Amazon has been the champion of ebooks in general, the champion of low-cost ebooks, and the champion of indie writers. I'm rolling with that. Yes, they might get a monopoly and turn evil sometime in the future, but really, that isn't my biggest worry right now.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Ardyth said:


> What worries me is that you can't even give away review copies while in the program...


Are you sure about that? I specifically asked Amazon if the no-distribution-elsewhere clause impaired my ability to give away a handful of ebooks in a contest on my blog, and was told that was fine. My inference is that they want a conventional understanding of exclusivity - i.e. for you not to offer the book for download to the (paying/non-paying) masses.

Then again, I'm unconvinced that this while thing is a heinous socialist plot hatched by undead indie-devouring gatekeepers hell-bent on destroying the hopes, dreams, and careers of writers the world over, so clearly my delusions are dangerously heretical. 

_(--George, whose stats after one day in Select are Sales: Nil, Loans: Nil, Surprise at this state of affairs: Nil)_


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2011)

Why all the angst about rankings? They're so danged volatile as to be nearly meaningless. Rankings don't sell books anyway, unless you count lemming sales.


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

At the risk of casting stones across the water, how much success did we all have as Indies before Amazon launched KDP?  Nearly every thread on here lambasts the profit motive of Amazon. Sort of an "Occupy Amazon" mentality. What is so wrong with them seeking to improve their business model?  And how would we all feel if they dumped all Indies, or KDP all together, in favor of another source?

Truly, let's give a little credit where credit is due. We get seventy percent royalty. SEVENTY percent. If that's all you have ever gotten it probably seems unfair, but many of us started this game at TEN percent.

I am grateful to Amazon and KDP. They have made mistakes, errors with my books, but they have never treated me anything but professionally.  This is just another marketing gambit. It will rise or fall with its success.

Hijacking your thread, David, for my soapbox.  Love you, Dude!

GR


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Amazon's confirmed that rentals through Prime do count toward paid rankings. This means those getting the rentals will increase your exposure, however much or little...and those that don't risk having the reverse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hmmm... Well, I agree that may have some disadvantages for a lot of us. Not so much for others.

Since this automatically puts ALL _Big 6 novels_ at a ranking _disadvantage_, it may in fact HELP most indies with ranking. We all (in Select or not) compete with the Big 6 novels for ranking.

Just another way of considering it.

Edit: It is also very risky judging anything by a couple of days sales as we all know. I only put one novel in and not even my highest selling one. I'm not saying jump in with both feet, but assuming that Amazon has turned into an author eating zombie out to devour our flesh after all they've done and the money we make for them as a group?

I really would hold off on that assumption. 

What I HOPE to see happen isn't that this allows Amazon to become a monopoly (exceedingly unlikely) but instead WAKES UP B&N and Apple that indies are valuable and should be given a little attention instead of shoved into a closet.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

smreine said:


> I don't disagree that this is a mess, but I'm not sure what a better approach would look like.


Being non-exclusive and getting a ton of sales on iBooks?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Gordon Ryan said:


> I am grateful to Amazon and KDP. They have made mistakes, errors with my books, but they have never treated me anything but professionally. This is just another marketing gambit. It will rise or fall with its success.
> 
> GR


I agree, Gordon. I have nothing against Amazon for doing this. Businesses do what they can to increase their market share. At least Amazon is catering to the reader by offering them value as opposed to Steve Jobs who tried to increase his market share by forcing the agency model on Amazon and driving up the cost of ebooks.

Amazon has been good to me and I have no complaints even about Select. Although I know it's going to hurt my sales, I can't see where opting in to this is going to increase my sales.

Amazon will do what it's going to do with new programs, new algorithms, new promotions, and it's up to me as an INDIE to do what I can to help myself.


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## jimbronyaur (Feb 9, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Yes, it definitely got harder.
> 
> I look at this way. The last time I checked, there were 92K books in Select. That's 92K books less in SW, Kobo, etc. I'll continue to promote Kindle, but I'll put more effort into the other venues.


YES! THIS! I really hope everyone steps back and remembers there are SO many other readers out there. I love Amazon - always have, always will. I'm a customer, I have a Prime membership, and I use KDP. I know the power of Amazon and I respect them for what they do. The good I take away from Select is that they were willing to talk with other authors and attempt a program. That shows potential for the future which I am happy about.

But I cannot personally sell just on Amazon, they only account for half my sales. This isn't some freak thing either, I promote on all the sites. I'd soon send someone to my site with all the links versus sending them directly to Amazon. What if someone owns a Nook? A Kobo? A Sony? An iPad? What if someone doesn't understand how to use the Kindle app? Smashwords is pretty easy to grab a .PDF file, etc.

We have to use two eyes here looking at this.

Those who say Amazon is 99% of their sales, I ask: WHY? Are you just promoting for Amazon, etc. Are you everywhere else?

-jb


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Why all the angst about rankings? They're so danged volatile as to be nearly meaningless. Rankings don't sell books anyway, unless you count lemming sales.


Rankings matter to me. Everytime I get on a top-twenty list, my sales go up, I gain first page visibility for my genre, and I tend to stay there for awhile until Amazon messes with their algorithms. Plus, when you are on a top-twenty, Amazon sends out emails to people who have bought similar books, showing them yours. I can't buy this publicity. Here's mine now:
ASIN: B0052AI5W8 
Lending: Enabled 
Average Customer Review: 4.3 out of 5 stars See all reviews (10 customer reviews) 
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #6,182 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store) 
#14 in Books > Christian Books & Bibles > Literature & Fiction > Science Fiction & Fantasy 
#39 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Occult 
#53 in Books > Teens > Horror


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Now it is almost a gentle "forcing" to get people to opt in by threatening their hard earned rankings. This is sad and I hope that when they work the kinks out of this fairly new venture, they change this. They shouldn't be punishing the very people who are the lifeblood of their ebook revenues.


There is another way to look at it: they are rewarding those who opt in.


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## Lisa_Follett (Oct 22, 2011)

Somewhere between final proofing and a head cold, I have lurked. I am going to upload my debut novel sometime in the next two weeks (before Christmas if all goes well). I am new to this game, so therefore, I have nothing to lose. I will enroll in KDP Select for the first 90 days. I suspect it will take me that long to figure out formatting for Smashwords anyway. I do plan to publish on Createspace as well.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Lisa_Follett said:


> Somewhere between final proofing and a head cold, I have lurked. I am going to upload my debut novel sometime in the next two weeks (before Christmas if all goes well). I am new to this game, so therefore, I have nothing to lose. I will enroll in KDP Select for the first 90 days. I suspect it will take me that long to figure out formatting for Smashwords anyway. I do plan to publish on Createspace as well.


There are no restrictions on paper copies. Only ebooks.

Hope your cold gets better.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

It does puzzle me on how Amazon makes a "borrow" a "sale" in ranking. By that logic every time a  book in any local library or online library is borrowed it constitutes as a sale and that makes no sense in really determining sales of a title. It is artificial sales ranking. It is BS.

I have read there are an estimated 7-12 million prime members and someone said there are 90,000 Prime titles, so if they all borrow (sale) a book this month and "borrows" are "sales" that will definitely change rankings.

As far as ranking goes this method it seems would reward those who opt-in over those who don't.  Also if "borrows" are "sales" the validity of their "sales ranking" is inaccurate.

This is just the beginning so who knows where this will lead to down the road.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Is the glass half-full, or half empty? Your choice. Please leave a nickel in the jar as you exit this post.

Lisa - Hope your feeling better too. I've been battling bronchitus and a teething puppy myself.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Weren't we all up in arms over Kindle Shorts at 49 cents? That fizzled pretty quickly. I'm not saying Select is going to fizzle. It might just be here to stay considering there are nearly 100K books already in it. 

I'm saying Amazon will make changes and we need to adapt to those changes. We are independent of the Big 6. We don't have to wait around for months while some suits in NYC come up with a new marketing plan that we may or may not like. We can and should do it ourselves.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> It does puzzle me on how Amazon makes a "borrow" a "sale" in ranking. By that logic every time a book in any local library or online library is borrowed it constitutes as a sale and that makes no sense in really determining sales of a title. It is artificial sales ranking. It is BS.
> 
> I have read there are an estimated 7-12 million prime members and someone said there are 90,000 Prime titles, so if they all borrow (sale) a book this month and "borrows" are "sales" that will definitely change rankings.
> 
> ...


Just a week ago, I got shot down on another thread for trying to show that Amazon was using more than sales in their figuring of rankings. People couldn't believe it was true. Well, now I've been conclusively proven correct. It's _never _ been strictly just on sales. They weight books with a history and give them less volatility. They also give weight to those through traditional publishers, by allowing them to be on more visible lists, with products repeated and lumped together. It's never been a level playing field and never will be and that's okay because--IT"S THEIR FIELD. Amazon will do what benefits Amazon. WE need to figure out how to maximize what we are given to our advantage.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

There is a $500,000 pot that all will share. You can't make more money unless other authors make LESS money. Having been around Amazon for years, I know that there will be a sudden onslaught of attack reviews on better-selling titles by KDP Select authors who want more money. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to fight attack reviewers. Amazon doesn't really do much about it, and you can't really prove it. However, it really, really happens. There are authors like that. So brace yourselves. If you have a high sales rank, they'll be coming to take you down.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> I have read there are an estimated 7-12 million prime members and someone said there are 90,000 Prime titles, so if they all borrow (sale) a book this month and "borrows" are "sales" that will definitely change rankings.
> 
> As far as ranking goes this method it seems would reward those who opt-in over those who don't. Also if "borrows" are "sales" the validity of their "sales ranking" is inaccurate.


This is basically my thinking.

And I'm not here to bash Amazon either. I've defended 'em plenty of times, even about the Select program. There's parts of the Select program I do like, and if they'd get rid of the exclusivity crap, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.

So far looks like rankings have plateaued after the initial rise. Hopefully that's the end of that up and down nonsense.



jhanel said:


> We run a game every other week. If you're ever in Tulsa, give me a shout. =) You'd be a welcome bit part for an adventure.


I dunno. Half-Orcs tend to have a knack for ruining campaigns. They do some stupid crap when drunk


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## kellymcclymer (Apr 22, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> by allowing them to be on more visible lists, with products repeated and lumped together. It's never been a level playing field and never will be and that's okay because--IT"S THEIR FIELD. Amazon will do what benefits Amazon. WE need to figure out how to maximize what we are given to our advantage.


Logically, what benefits Amazon is to sell the most higher-priced, higher-selling books *that they get a higher percentage of*. Their metrics are no doubt designed to make those books discoverable by all readers who demonstrate the desire and ability to buy them, as that makes them the most money. So our job as writers (after writing the best books we can) is to price our books optimally for our own profits, our readers' pocketbooks, and Amazon's percentage. What that figure is differs for every book. I wish I had an algorithm wizard working for me


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

kellymcclymer said:


> Logically, what benefits Amazon is to sell the most higher-priced, higher-selling books *that they get a higher percentage of*. Their metrics are no doubt designed to make those books discoverable by all readers who demonstrate the desire and ability to buy them, as that makes them the most money. So our job as writers (after writing the best books we can) is to price our books optimally for our own profits, our readers' pocketbooks, and Amazon's percentage. What that figure is differs for every book. I wish I had an algorithm wizard working for me


Maybe we should all raise our prices to 5.99-8.99. That's still in the 70% range, right?


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

kellymcclymer said:


> Logically, what benefits Amazon is to sell the most higher-priced, higher-selling books *that they get a higher percentage of*. Their metrics are no doubt designed to make those books discoverable by all readers who demonstrate the desire and ability to buy them, as that makes them the most money. So our job as writers (after writing the best books we can) is to price our books optimally for our own profits, our readers' pocketbooks, and Amazon's percentage. What that figure is differs for every book. I wish I had an algorithm wizard working for me


I have not found any magic algorithm for higher priced books, only for books that are selling well. If there is such a thing I haven't figured out how to use it! 

Vicki


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Maybe we should all raise our prices to 5.99-8.99. That's still in the 70% range, right?


So here is a thought: Yesterday, I clicked on a KB poster's book. It was selling for $2.99. They had a very, very long 2 start review that went on and on and on about how the book was self-published and all of its faults -except that it wasn't. It was a traditionally published book (with quite a few 4 and 5 star reviews as well). Is it possible that the low pricing creates an assumption in some reader's minds that books are self-published? Is this where the devaluing occurs? If you priced your full length novel at a higher price is it possible that buyers will assume it is traditionally published? There also seems to be the assumption that if a reader doesn't like a book that it must be self-published -whether it is or not (which is utter nonsense). Just something to think about...


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Maybe we should all raise our prices to 5.99-8.99. That's still in the 70% range, right?


You can go up to $9.99 and at that price, our royalty would be about $7. Since my average royalty is $1 per book, I wouldn't have to sell near as many books.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

> As far as ranking goes this method it seems would reward those who opt-in over those who don't.


But if they didn't include borrows as sales, it would have the opposite effect of lowering the ranking of participants in Select. Amazon has to favor one group or the other, so they chose to favor Select participants.

IMO, "borrows" really are sales, since the borrower has to pay for Amazon Prime. It's a subscription sale, so I think it's more reasonable to include borrows in the rankings than to exclude them.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

I'll tell you what the heck I want. I want everything to work in MY favor.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> This is basically my thinking.
> 
> And I'm not here to bash Amazon either. I've defended 'em plenty of times, even about the Select program. There's parts of the Select program I do like, and if they'd get rid of the exclusivity crap, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.
> 
> So far looks like rankings have plateaued after the initial rise. Hopefully that's the end of that up and down nonsense.


No, I'm not bashing Amazon either. I don't have a dog in this. I am a happy Amazon customer. I'm just looking at how they account for "sales." To my mind a borrowed book is essentially a "free" book. But, maybe that's just me?

The $500K? In a floating point pool system with just 5 Million Primes borrowing a book the payment for each book is negligible unless many thousands of your books are borrowed. Contrasting that with the full price Amazon was going to pay the Big 6 and...well, what a difference in $$$?

Of course one can say they are doing it for the exposure and potential gain in rank, visibility and new sales--and that is a good trade off.

This is just the beginning. What if the Big 6 put some of their bestselling books or backlist into Prime Lending? That will change the landscape completely.


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## Lexus Luke (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd opt in if it weren't for the stipulation of taking a book down everywhere else. 

Love Amazon for the opportunity to sell there, but giving one company that much clout over a single industry is a bad idea. I just won't do it on principle. Think I'll buy my next dozen reads from Barnes & Noble jus' cus'.


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## Lexus Luke (Feb 5, 2011)

Robert E. Keller said:


> I'll tell you what the heck I want. I want everything to work in MY favor.


Hahaha. Me, too! Dang it!


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Jan Strnad said:


> But if they didn't include borrows as sales, it would have the opposite effect of lowering the ranking of participants in Select. Amazon has to favor one group or the other, so they chose to favor Select participants.
> 
> IMO, "borrows" really are sales, since the borrower has to pay for Amazon Prime. It's a subscription sale, so I think it's more reasonable to include borrows in the rankings than to exclude them.


Good points.

It just bites hard that to get these additional sales, you have to pull your books from every other retailer.


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## Martin Perry (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm taking a wait and see approach with KDP Select. I've bought enough bad electronics to know not to be an early adopter with anything other than a dead cert.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> It does puzzle me on how Amazon makes a "borrow" a "sale" in ranking. By that logic every time a book in any local library or online library is borrowed it constitutes as a sale and that makes no sense in really determining sales of a title. It is artificial sales ranking. It is BS.
> 
> I have read there are an estimated 7-12 million prime members and someone said there are 90,000 Prime titles, so if they all borrow (sale) a book this month and "borrows" are "sales" that will definitely change rankings.


I don't know if my theory is correct, but maybe a lend in the Lending Library is a sale because, technically, the author is paid. It's not free, so it can't go as a ranking in the Free Kindle Store, and other lending features have no money being paid to the author/publisher.


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## Robert Bidinotto (Mar 3, 2011)

Robert E. Keller said:


> I'll tell you what the heck I want. I want everything to work in MY favor.


My philosophy exactly, Robert. 

And, I suspect, it's the philosophy of everyone here.

Look, we can yell and holler all we want about Big Bad Amazon, or Clunky Smashwords Meatgrinder, or Indifferent Barnes & Noble, or Incompetent Apple, etc. But let's take a step back for a minute. WHERE WERE WE INDIE AUTHORS 2 YEARS AGO, when these opportunities didn't exist for us?

_They are not our enemies._ They aren't doing this stuff to make us fail. They are our publishing partners, and they get NOTHING out of our failure. If we express our concerns and frustrations in the form of constructive criticism, I'm sure a lot of them will be addressed.

For all the worries about Amazon becoming too big, remember how we've been faring under the Legacy Cartel. And remember that, as authors, we still have plenty of options. Remember also that Amazon is rising to its strong market position not by abusing authors or customers, but by serving them well. If and when it stops doing that, a host of competitors will jump into the marketplace to take them down a peg. Anyone remember when IBM had an unassailable position in personal computers? Ask yourself what happened to them, and to a host of similar "monopolies."

In the case of the Select program, I was very nervous that by opting in, any "borrows" would cannibalize my sales, hence hurt my sales ranking. A whole lot for me and my future depends right now on maintaining my high sales ranking as long as possible. I knew participation was a big gamble. But I opted in anyway, _even when I didn't know that Amazon would count borrows as "sales" for ranking purposes._ I'm sure that Amazon decided to count rentals as sales for ranking purposes, not to serve some devious purpose, but simply to give Select participants like me reassurance that opting in wouldn't cannibalize our sales rankings. Consider the alternative: If they had _not_ done that, strong-selling authors would be shooting themselves in the foot by signing up.

Look, there's simply no way to create a program that gives participants some advantage that will not correspondingly disadvantage non-participants! It's called an INCENTIVE. Each of us must decide what is to our best advantage and then make choices based on our uniquely individual situation. For people with strong non-Kindle sales, Select participation may make little sense. For those like me who have few non-Kindle sales, there are distinct advantages for signing up. But there is no universal "right" or "wrong" that applies to all of us, and Amazon shouldn't be blamed for creating an incentive program for authors who decide to accept their terms.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> I don't know if my theory is correct, but maybe a lend in the Lending Library is a sale because, technically, the author is paid. It's not free, so it can't go as a ranking in the Free Kindle Store, and other lending features have no money being paid to the author/publisher.


I don't think it's worth worrying about. Amazon could weight sales ranking based on sales price too if they wanted. Why should a $1 book weight as much as a $4 book, for example?

Anyway, we need to see how things look after a few weeks. Everything is too new right now to have much perspective.

I am amused that there are already 92,000 books in Select. Select is Indie Country now. Big Six books stay out!


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## karencantwell (Jun 17, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> I don't know if my theory is correct, but maybe a lend in the Lending Library is a sale because, technically, the author is paid. It's not free, so it can't go as a ranking in the Free Kindle Store, and other lending features have no money being paid to the author/publisher.


This makes sense, Mary.

Also, thank you, David, for sharing your data with everyone. Information like this is always helpful. I put you right up there with Indies who have inspired me - you've been helpful from the first day I arrived on the KB and had no idea WHAT I was doing. You be one real cool dude. 

Karen


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Despite all the different opinions and thoughts about Select one thing is very true.  Without Amazon indie authors would not be doing as well as many are. Not only that, but they have been the prime mover in all things ebook and ereader.  They really made the market when others in publishing called ebooks a passing fad for techies that would go nowhere.  Amazon is the marketmaker and if you are an indie in this market--pay attention.

Does SW or B&N promote your books?  More like they just list them.

If I had an ebook I would have put it on Select in a NY minute...it ain't perfect, but it does have some good points and it is a new game.

Still don't think a "borrow" is really a "sale," but if that's what they have to do to get the cows in the barn...makes sense.


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## Sarah Woodbury (Jan 30, 2011)

The changes in rankings could also have less to do with being in select or not (I am not in select and have also seen a worse ranking on all my books), but the sudden rush of free books over the weekend.  Fewer people buying books, more books coming off the free and entering the paid lists at a higher ranking.  Just a thought.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry Jackz, I didn't mean to imply that *you* were bashing Amazon. I was just more directing that to everyone in general. Don't want to seem like I'm too big of a whiner.

Just a little whiner.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Yes, it definitely got harder.
> 
> I look at this way. The last time I checked, there were 92K books in Select. That's 92K books less in SW, Kobo, etc. I'll continue to promote Kindle, but I'll put more effort into the other venues.


92K less 4. 
Mine were never on any site other than Amazon because the other sites either require you to have a US bank account, or to be paid via Paypal, neither of which is available to me. This used to make me a bit cross  but now it seems to be working for me


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

97,645 about the same as this morning. Looks like the opt-ins are slowing down.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Where are you guys seeing 97k? When I look at this link, I see 43,524:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_85%3A2470955011%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011&bbn=283155&ie=UTF8&qid=1323484651&rnid=618072011


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

jillmyles said:


> Where are you guys seeing 97k? When I look at this link, I see 43,524:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_85%3A2470955011%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011&bbn=283155&ie=UTF8&qid=1323484651&rnid=618072011


Right here.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kindle+edition&x=17&y=16#/ref=sr_nr_p_85_0?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_85%3A1&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624859

If I'm in the wrong pew, please let me know but these are kindle books that are prime eligible.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Right here.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kindle+edition&x=17&y=16#/ref=sr_nr_p_85_0?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_85%3A1&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624859
> 
> If I'm in the wrong pew, please let me know but these are kindle books that are prime eligible.


Try this:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624982&rnid=618072011#/ref=sr_nr_p_85_0?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_85%3A2470955011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624986&rnid=2470954011


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

modwitch said:


> I think that link includes paperbacks as well (so it's double counting a lot of books). If you look at your link and click on Kindle store over on the left, you get the 43K number).





Jeff said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624982&rnid=618072011#/ref=sr_nr_p_85_0?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_85%3A2470955011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624986&rnid=2470954011


Shoot, and here I thought there would be nearly 100K books taken out of the other retailers. Oh, well. It sounded good while it lasted.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Actually, I think it's a good thing for authors to get their borrows to count toward rank. If you're giving up visibility and sales on other venues, why wouldn't you want to be more visible and sell more on Amazon?

A reward for those opting in? You betcha. But so are the other perks. They're trying to make opting in attractive, not punishing those who don't opt in.

Just weigh that in making your decision, along with the ability to go free with ease and the split of the $500,000.

Vicki


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

modwitch said:


> A quick comment on that 7-12 million number (which is similar to estimates I have heard). The vast majority of Prime members historically joined because of the free shipping. And you have to be a Prime member and a Kindle owner (not a Kindle app) and the primary name on the Prime account (so I can borrow a book to my device, but my husband can't to his).
> 
> Add to that, it's not the easiest thing to find the Prime library on your Kindle (I had to google for instructions ), and it's not the world's most user friendly nav experience now, and I think the total lending library active borrowers will be a lot smaller than that 7-12 million number.
> 
> ...


Yes, the 7-12M is just a guesstimate from better minds than mine working off #'s Amazon did release. Some Prime members may not even use the book borrow feature--remember 25% of Americans don't read books. For me 1 book a month wouldn't be a big deal. But here at the KB author-centric universe it is. Yes, forgot all about Fire's freebie Prime.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Actually, I think it's a good thing for authors to get their borrows to count toward rank. If you're giving up visibility and sales on other venues, why wouldn't you want to be more visible and sell more on Amazon?
> 
> A reward for those opting in? You betcha. But so are the other perks. They're trying to make opting in attractive, not punishing those who don't opt in.
> 
> ...


I think Amazon have obviously picked up on the number of authors going the brief freebie route to get exposure. They have given us what we wanted - the opportunity to go free for a few days without having to first go free on other sites and then let Amazon know.

I'm interested to see what the 'borrow' figures are at the moment. I'm getting about one per day for _Something to Read on the Plane_ on Amazon.com. I expect other authors are getting far more. I haven't done a freebie yet.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

modwitch said:


> Add to that, it's not the easiest thing to find the Prime library on your Kindle (I had to google for instructions ), and it's not the world's most user friendly nav experience now, and I think the total lending library active borrowers will be a lot smaller than that 7-12 million number.


Right, I've been a prime owner for a while now and I've yet to borrow a book or even see one that I'd go through the trouble of borrowing. It really is a hassle to browse anything on the kindle, even when you know the name of the book you want.

I think a lot of the surge or fall in rankings is probably related to a bunch of people borrowing all at once. That won't happen every month and some people won't even read the borrowed book within one month. The issue with the free books is that people hoard them and don't necessarily read them right away.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Select is actually the first subscription program. In thinking of rankings, one might step back and ask how downloads in a subscription program should affect rankings.

Why is it a subscription program? Because I pay for my subscription with the $79 I give Amazon for my Prime membership. That gives me shipping, a subscription to a set of videos, and a subscription to a set of books for the Kindle. 

I agree there is a one per month limit, but that is simply one of the many ways a subscription can be defined. Suppose I paid $20/month for a subscription and was allowed 10 downloads per month? It's the same concept. 

I am paying money to Amazon. I get stuff in return. I am paying for those books I get from Prime.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Actually, I think it's a good thing for authors to get their borrows to count toward rank. If you're giving up visibility and sales on other venues, why wouldn't you want to be more visible and sell more on Amazon?
> 
> A reward for those opting in? You betcha. But so are the other perks. They're trying to make opting in attractive, not punishing those who don't opt in.
> 
> ...


We're paid for them so from my way of looking at it, they ARE sales. The purchaser in fact pays by joining Prime.

I don't think they're going to stop counting them as sales, just 1 persons opinion worth.... emmm nothing. lol


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I'd like to point out, not all those 43K books are indie. Maybe half are. _Hunger Games_ was Scholastic, they won't be sharing in the split.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'd like to point out, not all those 43K books are indie. Maybe half are. _Hunger Games_ was Scholastic, they won't be sharing in the split.


Right before the "KDP Select" announcement there were about 5,000 books in there. So I think it's safe to say about 38,000 are indie.

Vicki


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Victorine said:


> Right before the "KDP Select" announcement there were about 5,000 books in there. So I think it's safe to say about 38,000 are indie.
> 
> Vicki


38K isn't a whole lot, really.

As for Prime, it took me until just the last couple of months to take advantage of the free videos. That's all I watch, too. The free stuff.


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

David, sent you a PM, but at least ONE of your in-boxes is full.  Hopefully the Half-Orc box is receiving.

GR


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## VikRubenfeld (Oct 6, 2011)

ChristopherDavidPetersen said:


> Wow Brain, that one heck of a nice looking web page  Great job!
> 
> BTW - I haven't set up with iTunes yet. I heard it was a pain. Any truth to the rumor?


I set up with iTunes via Smashwords. It seemed about as easy as setting up with Amazon. I saved my file from MS Word as a .doc file and uploaded it to Smashwords. They are pretty good about notifying you of what, if anything, needs to be changed. IIRC you have to have your TOC set up with hyperlinks to the sections of your book; the first page has to be the copyright info; things of this nature.


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## VikRubenfeld (Oct 6, 2011)

Ardyth said:


> What worries me is that you can't even give away review copies while in the program.....


That's a big stumbling block for me when it comes to using select. I'm a new author, and I'd probably give kdp select a chance. But, various book bloggers are planning giveaways of my novel, and/or planning to review it, and I need to be able give away ebooks via a coupon code, which I have from Smashwords. I wonder why Amazon hasn't enabled coupon codes yet?


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## VikRubenfeld (Oct 6, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I have not found any magic algorithm for higher priced books, only for books that are selling well. If there is such a thing I haven't figured out how to use it!
> 
> Vicki


Joe Konrath had a blog post on this subject recently that was interesting. (link)

Here's a quote:



> Joe sez: Pricing is driving me a little crazy, for several reasons.
> I've also come to the conclusion, based on my own research and that of my peers', that ebooks can make more money at $3.99 or $4.99 than at $2.99. So at the beginning of this month, I raised prices on Kindle six of my titles, going as high as $4.49.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

You can give away a print version.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Robert Bidinotto said:


> In the case of the Select program, I was very nervous that by opting in, any "borrows" would cannibalize my sales, hence hurt my sales ranking. A whole lot for me and my future depends right now on maintaining my high sales ranking as long as possible. I knew participation was a big gamble. But I opted in anyway, _even when I didn't know that Amazon would count borrows as "sales" for ranking purposes._ I'm sure that Amazon decided to count rentals as sales for ranking purposes, not to serve some devious purpose, but simply to give Select participants like me reassurance that opting in wouldn't cannibalize our sales rankings. Consider the alternative: If they had _not_ done that, strong-selling authors would be shooting themselves in the foot by signing up.


This is absolutely why Amazon have counted borrows in the rankings. All the high-selling indies would opt out of Select if their ranking tanked as a result of borrowers cannibalizing sales. Unfortunately Amazon is going to annoy someone whichever way they jump, they just chose to reward those who opted in and annoy the rest of us.

For the record, I haven't opted in with my current books as I sell too well at other venues and the thought of trying to pull those books from Kobo and Sony gives me a headache. I'll probably do it for the first book in a new series for the first 90 days then distribute to the others stores.


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## VikRubenfeld (Oct 6, 2011)

ETS PRESS said:


> You can give away a print version.


True that! But ebooks are so much more convenient. Plus, giveaway winners may want it as an ebook.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_browse-b_mrr_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624982&rnid=618072011#/ref=sr_nr_p_85_0?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+edition%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_85%3A2470955011&bbn=283155&keywords=kindle+edition&ie=UTF8&qid=1323624986&rnid=2470954011


So, I followed the link and looked at the listing as if I were a potential Prime customer. Most of the titles are 99 cents to $2.99. Page after page. Once in a while a higher priced book pops up. I would think to myself, "Heck. I can just buy the downloads for less than I'd spend on Prime." One free read a month? If I buy twelve 99 cent books, that's not even $12.00. Throw in the occasional $14.95 book, and we're probably up to $55.00. Why pay $74.00? Since I'm a Kindle owner, free shipping doesn't concern me. I would not personally see the value - at a quick glance. Maybe I'm missing something, but I wouldn't join it, so I won't partner with it.

I'm a real reader in real life, and I am certainly not tempted to join.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"One free read a month? If I buy twelve 99 cent books, that's not even $12.00. Throw in the occasional $14.95 book, and we're probably up to $55.00. Why pay $74.00? Since I'm a Kindle owner, free shipping doesn't concern me. I would not personally see the value - at a quick glance. Maybe I'm missing something, but I wouldn't join it, so I won't partner with it."_

Prime targets all consumers, not just book buyers. Borrowing is a new feature of Prime. I have been a member since it started five(?) years ago and my personal situation made it very worthwhile just for shipping books, flashlights, radios, light bulbs, etc. I figure I saved several hundred dollars in shipping each year.

Free videos are also a new Prime inducement. The purpose of all these extras is to get people to enroll in Prime and direct their purchases of all sorts of things to Amazon. Fire owners get a free Prime for either 30 or 90 days. I forget which. The videos are specifically aimed at them in the hope they click the JOIN PRIME button at the end of the trial period..

You're not missing anything, you just don't have a buying behavior that makes it a value. Books and independent authors are just part of a larger campaign.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

It's because Prime members buy something like 50-75% more at Amazon than non-Prime members. The books are a throwaway to help lure people in. The payoff is when they start buying everything they buy online at Amazon.


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## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

I have saved a ton on shipping this month because I'm an Amazon Prime member. I do a lot of Christmas shopping online.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

I don't care that much personally, as I only have one big toe  in the water, but I am really surprised they rolled rentals into sales rankings. Seems like two different kinds of popularity. On the face of things, it would seem to favor high-cost books that people want to "save" money by borrowing. And Amazon doesn't mind high-priced books on the bestseller list. 

But Id bet they start seeing a hit to their ebook sales income that won't be offset by new Prime memberships. I know Amazon is happy to have loss leaders for a looong time in order to gain market, but do they really want to cook their own golden goose at Christmas? I'll bet they will soon break these into two separate lists.

if not, the highest-ranking authors will actually be making the least money! When Konrath reports making $2 and some pocket lint for his 1,500 downloads (instead of the suggested $7,500), I don't see any PR gain at all.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

Nell Gavin said:


> I would think to myself, "Heck. I can just buy the downloads for less than I'd spend on Prime."


Yes, exactly. Someone can discover my book in the Prime list and decide to buy it rather than borrow it.

How is that bad for me?

David


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

VikRubenfeld said:


> Joe Konrath had a blog post on this subject recently that was interesting. (link)
> 
> Here's a quote:


I don't think there's any point in raising prices until we see how things shake out with Select. I raised some of my prices a few weeks ago. I'll make a decision about raising them again some time after the first of the year.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

destill said:


> I have saved a ton on shipping this month because I'm an Amazon Prime member. I do a lot of Christmas shopping online.


Me too. I made my money back this past week alone.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

VikRubenfeld said:


> That's a big stumbling block for me when it comes to using select. I'm a new author, and I'd probably give kdp select a chance. But, various book bloggers are planning giveaways of my novel, and/or planning to review it, and I need to be able give away ebooks via a coupon code, which I have from Smashwords. I wonder why Amazon hasn't enabled coupon codes yet?


Can't you do direct giveaways? ie. email them the file? It's not quite as pretty as a Smashwords coupon, but it should work, no?

ETA: I've been a prime member since they announced it - about 5 years, now, I guess. Trust me, it's not for the lending library. And yes, because of prime, I have shifted a LOT of my buying to Amazon, from video games, paper books (when I bought them), textbooks for school, office supplies, batteries, vitamins, pretty much everything other than groceries and clothes. Free shipping on everything, no matter how big or little your order, is pretty sweet. Honestly, I'll probably never borrow a book through prime - doesn't mean it's not worth my $80 a year, though. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a free prime member now, though - for about the past 6 months. Yay, free prime membership for students


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## GlennGamble (Sep 15, 2011)

scottnicholson said:



> I don't care that much personally, as I only have one big toe in the water, but I am really surprised they rolled rentals into sales rankings. Seems like two different kinds of popularity. On the face of things, it would seem to favor high-cost books that people want to "save" money by borrowing. And Amazon doesn't mind high-priced books on the bestseller list.
> 
> But Id bet they start seeing a hit to their ebook sales income that won't be offset by new Prime memberships. I know Amazon is happy to have loss leaders for a looong time in order to gain market, but do they really want to cook their own golden goose at Christmas? I'll bet they will soon break these into two separate lists.
> 
> if not, the highest-ranking authors will actually be making the least money! When Konrath reports making $2 and some pocket lint for his 1,500 downloads (instead of the suggested $7,500), I don't see any PR gain at all.


I assumr that you're going to sit on the sidelines and wait this one out. Me too... simply because of the exclusivity clause


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

While all three of my novels have been Kindle paid genre bestsellers, they have sold squat via other platforms (B&N, Smashwords, etc.) So, I'm willing to give it a shot. The way I look at it, I've got little to lose. So far, Amazon has been very good to me and also very responsive with my queries, troubleshooting, etc. Five minutes after signing up, a Prime member borrowed one of my titles. I'll decide after 90 days whether it was worthwhile and whether or not to renew. It's nice not being treated like chopped liver as an author.

I'm wondering when to do the 5-day free availability option. I would think the week before Xmas would make sense.


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## WadeArnold (Sep 1, 2011)

Authors get paid for books in the Lending library, right? You get paid out of a monthly fund. Regardless of rankings analysis, I only see the positive side for lower selling authors. People are much more likely to try a "free" book, which is what so many threads here have been talking about, right? "Make your book free!"

This essentially does that for the customer, and you get paid something. The amount is variable, but if you make something from a title that is being "lent out" for free, then it seems a good thing for those who want to promote their books. 

Certainly you could make the first book in a series opted in, thus "free", and the rest could be discovered the same way as before. You'll still get paid for those "free" readings from the select fund. 

What am I missing?


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

WadeArnold said:


> Authors get paid for books in the Lending library, right? You get paid out of a monthly fund. Regardless of rankings analysis, I only see the positive side for lower selling authors. People are much more likely to try a "free" book, which is what so many threads here have been talking about, right? "Make your book free!"
> 
> This essentially does that for the customer, and you get paid something. The amount is variable, but if you make something from a title that is being "lent out" for free, then it seems a good thing for those who want to promote their books.
> 
> ...


Two main issues. One, you have to remove that book one from other stores, such as B&N, iBooks, and Kobo.

Two, you might not get paid very much for those books that are borrowed for free.

But yeah, if your book isn't selling much at all, then it's probably worth a try.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

I'd love to hear more from the authors that have been experiencing success at B&N and some of the other sources. I was extremely nervous about going Select, for the same reasons everyone else has voiced; however, I've sold a total of 9 books at Smashwords and 330 at B&N...out of 12,000 total sales over the past year (this is my first year). B&N has been growing, slowly...which caused me some pain to make the decision. What have some of you been doing to promote at these sites...other than put links on your websites. I'm in for 90 days, but beyond that...who knows.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

destill said:


> I have saved a ton on shipping this month because I'm an Amazon Prime member. I do a lot of Christmas shopping online.


Same here. The UPS truck is a frequent visitor.  I only just used the free Prime streaming on my Fire yesterday for the first time. I noticed they got in several more TV shows, so I can see that they are working on getting more into their Prime Streaming library too.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

VikRubenfeld said:


> Joe Konrath had a blog post on this subject recently that was interesting. (link)
> 
> Here's a quote: Selling more at $4.49 than $2.99


My experience has been exactly the opposite. I have several books by publishers, set at what I consider outrageous prices for ebooks. Then I have a booki at $.99 and a book at $2.99. Recently, I experimented and switched the $.99 with the $2.99 price.

My experience has been that the higher the price, the lower the sales. When I flipped pricing, the book that was selling well at $.99 tanked at $2.99 while the book that was less popular at $2.99 went up in sales at $.99. I can see by my rankings that as my books increase in price, they decrease in sales. One publisher set one of my books at $7.00 and that one has sold the fewest. It's also the most expensive. I have another book from another publisher set at $4.99 and it sells fewer than my book set at $2.99.

So...what works for one author doesn't always work for everyone.

I think the higher prices only work with "snob appeal" items where folks can be convinced they are getting a premium product for the additional cost. I don't think my books have much in the way of "snob appeal"


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Amy Corwin said:


> My experience has been that the higher the price, the lower the sales. When I flipped pricing, the book that was selling well at $.99 tanked at $2.99 while the book that was less popular at $2.99 went up in sales at $.99.


Yes, but the question is how much did sales change? My 99 cent book was selling 10-15 copies a day. Since I switched it to $2.99 six weeks ago, it's been selling 5 copies a day. Which means I'm making 2-3 times as much. Now, I have another $2.99 book that is the #1 Also bought for this book, and I think that's part of it.

If I felt that 99 cents was building me an engaged audience, I might prefer to have the 2-3 times as many sales rather than the extra income. But I haven't gotten a review for that book in something like 4 months, even though I've sold over 1000 copies of it in that time. So I'm not convinced that the audience-building was really occurring. I was getting myself some long-term baseline for the Amazon algorithms, though, so that is one positive of lower prices/more units. I need to get a mailing list opt-in on my site and at the end of each of my books so I can get a better idea of how interested folks are in reading future books.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

Rust never gets a toe hold at Amazon.  They're amazing.  I may try the select program with my newest book, The Blue World, in January/February, but just for the requisite 90 days.  Course by then I could be completely off the radar screen and half the Kindles on the planet will be jammed with 3,000 free books each.  Not only is pulling my books from other sites a hassle, but it bothers me on a deeper level.  I can't completely embrace the 'books are content' concept.  Yeah, I know it's business.  But I don't like the idea of having only one platform from which to buy/sell books.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Those are very good points.
Here's another interesting twist to it.
Back last summer before Amazon changed its algorythms, my books were selling very, very well. And what happened was, my higher-priced titles started building, too.

So at that point, I have to assume some fan-base building was going on, otherwise, my higher-priced books wouldn't have seen the associated increase in sales. They would have stayed miserable. And I earned at least twice as much on the $.99 book as on the highest priced book.

I'm still selling more of the $.99 book--enough to make it more profitable than my other books.

I don't really know what to conclude from this. Except that selling more of my cheaper books leads to selling more of my expensive books. And vice versa.

I'm not saying this is going to be true for everyone. Or even that I understand what is going on.
This is only my experience, for what it is worth.


edwardgtalbot said:


> Yes, but the question is how much did sales change? My 99 cent book was selling 10-15 copies a day. Since I switched it to $2.99 six weeks ago, it's been selling 5 copies a day. Which means I'm making 2-3 times as much. Now, I have another $2.99 book that is the #1 Also bought for this book, and I think that's part of it.
> 
> If I felt that 99 cents was building me an engaged audience, I might prefer to have the 2-3 times as many sales rather than the extra income. But I haven't gotten a review for that book in something like 4 months, even though I've sold over 1000 copies of it in that time. So I'm not convinced that the audience-building was really occurring. I was getting myself some long-term baseline for the Amazon algorithms, though, so that is one positive of lower prices/more units. I need to get a mailing list opt-in on my site and at the end of each of my books so I can get a better idea of how interested folks are in reading future books.


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## VikRubenfeld (Oct 6, 2011)

Arkali said:


> Can't you do direct giveaways? ie. email them the file? It's not quite as pretty as a Smashwords coupon, but it should work, no?


That's a great idea, and I'll consider it. At the same time, it seems to me on first thought, that perhaps a winner of a giveaway would feel more like they had really won something, if they download it from the website where people go to buy it. Hmmmm.....


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

VikRubenfeld said:


> At the same time, it seems to me on first thought, that perhaps a winner of a giveaway would feel more like they had really won something, if they download it from the website where people go to buy it. Hmmmm.....


Burn book to CD, autograph CD with permanent marker, mail CD to winner?


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I think some of the advocates of higher pricing might argue that going to $2.99 isn't high enough, that to get some kind of buyer psychology that associates value with higher prices to kick in you need to go to $3.99 and higher.


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

I think handing a corporation total control over a creative product you've made, regardless of the appearance of temporary benefit, is to play right into the hands of said corporation. 

Obviously Amazon is attempting to exploit the greed and desperation of writers to be 'noticed' in order to attack its online e-book competition. To this end, it'll dangle the carrot of 'PR' at writers - right up until it controls the entire market and starts changing the rules to suit itself. 

Corporations are sociopaths, entirely unconcerned by their impact on humans. They exist only for profit. Any appearance of 'benefit' to writers is purely a tactic set up by Amazon, who are undoubtedly already trying to work out how to exploit the weaknesses of writers further, and gain total market control. Then it will change the rules in its favor again. That's what corporations do.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Steven Konkoly said:


> I'd love to hear more from the authors that have been experiencing success at B&N and some of the other sources. I was extremely nervous about going Select, for the same reasons everyone else has voiced; however, I've sold a total of 9 books at Smashwords and 330 at B&N...out of 12,000 total sales over the past year (this is my first year). B&N has been growing, slowly...which caused me some pain to make the decision. What have some of you been doing to promote at these sites...other than put links on your websites. I'm in for 90 days, but beyond that...who knows.


I'd like to know how people generate B&N sales myself. I can't seem to do it.

From what I can see...and I may be entirely *wrong*...it seems that those who sell as well or better at B&N write romance/erotica.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Ian Fraser said:


> I think handing a corporation total control over a creative product you've made, regardless of the appearance of temporary benefit, is to play right into the hands of said corporation.
> 
> Obviously Amazon is attempting to exploit the greed and desperation of writers to be 'noticed' in order to attack its online e-book competition. To this end, it'll dangle the carrot of 'PR' at writers - right up until it controls the entire market and starts changing the rules to suit itself.
> 
> Corporations are sociopaths, entirely unconcerned by their impact on humans. They exist only for profit. Any appearance of 'benefit' to writers is purely a tactic set up by Amazon, who are undoubtedly already trying to work out how to exploit the weaknesses of writers further, and gain total market control. Then it will change the rules in its favor again. That's what corporations do.


If you are trad published you are in the hands of a corporation i.e a publisher, and they will often require you to sign a book deal for any new books you may be writing, or intend to write. You will have no control of your 'creative product' - book jacket, blurb, marketing etc and you will probably have to do their bidding as regards book signings, appearances. But more likely your book will end up as a damp squib because there will be little marketing done. Having gone that route, I prefer the Amazon one.


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## cidneyswanson (Feb 1, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> I dunno. Half-Orcs tend to have a knack for ruining campaigns. They do some stupid crap when drunk


Oh, Thank you for putting a smile on my face. Not a D&D'er myself, but DH and both sons are big time into it. I have been known to lurk in the kitchen and eavesdrop on their campaigns b/c they are so freaking hilarious.
Cidney


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

cidneyswanson said:


> Oh, Thank you for putting a smile on my face. Not a D&D'er myself, but DH and both sons are big time into it. I have been known to lurk in the kitchen and eavesdrop on their campaigns b/c they are so freaking hilarious.
> Cidney


I used to be a D&Der and have seen a lot of people ruin campaigns when drunk. Online campaigns even moreso. I could tell you some stories. 

I was the girl-type (not alone by any means because there are a fair number of us) covering my eyes, more or less sober and yelling "No! You're leading us over a cliff!"


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Ian Fraser said:


> I think handing a corporation total control over a creative product you've made, regardless of the appearance of temporary benefit, is to play right into the hands of said corporation.
> 
> Obviously Amazon is attempting to exploit the greed and desperation of writers to be 'noticed' in order to attack its online e-book competition. To this end, it'll dangle the carrot of 'PR' at writers - right up until it controls the entire market and starts changing the rules to suit itself.
> 
> Corporations are sociopaths, entirely unconcerned by their impact on humans. They exist only for profit. Any appearance of 'benefit' to writers is purely a tactic set up by Amazon, who are undoubtedly already trying to work out how to exploit the weaknesses of writers further, and gain total market control. Then it will change the rules in its favor again. That's what corporations do.


So wanting to get my novels into the hands of readers is "greed and desperation", is it? Well, that's your opinion. Mine is quite opposite. It is what writers always want.

As for the possibility or probability that Amazon will ever control the entire world's ebook market against all the competition, I will just agree to very strongly disagree. It ain't happenin' but if you want to think it will, go right ahead.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I used to be a D&Der and have seen a lot of people ruin campaigns when drunk. Online campaigns even moreso. I could tell you some stories.
> 
> I saw the girl-type covering my eyes, sober and yelling "No! You're leading us over a cliff!"


We'd play back in college. Lock ourselves in the rec room of the dorm for the weekend and order in pizza.
My little brother got into it and I played with him once and some of his friends. The look on his face was priceless when I betrayed the group and stole a jewel (actually, I think I might have killed him); so not me.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> We'd play back in college. Lock ourselves in the rec room of the dorm for the weekend and order in pizza.
> My little brother got into it and I played with him once and some of his friends. The look on his face was priceless when I betrayed the group and stole a jewel (actually, I think I might have killed him); so not me.


The great thing about gaming is that you can totally be "not yourself". D&D I had a had a dark elf (nuff said). Great fun. After that group broke up, I did a lot of online gaming, and I was an inveterate PvPer.

And I seem like such a nice person, too.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Two main issues. One, you have to remove that book one from other stores, such as B&N, iBooks, and Kobo.
Two, you might not get paid very much for those books that are borrowed for free."_

Correct. That means we face risk and have to evaluate that risk. The interesting thing about Prime Select is nobody can sit on the sidelines. Amazon has forced every author to play the game. I suspect that's why there is such strong opinion on each side. Many don't want to be forced to play.

Is someone objecting that they are on the sidelines and are refusing to play Amazon's game? I contend we all have two choices and we must pick one. One choice is to go with select and accept the risks Moses outlines above.

The other choice is to stay out of Prime Select and accept the risk that select will pay good money, rankings for non-Select will fall, sales will be generated by Prime exposure, etc.

None of the risks either Moses or I highlight existed last week. It's all new, and to date, every single one of us has made our play. It really is a game, but there are no sidelines. Ain't this a great country?


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

The market has changed (opt in), yet remains the same (do not opt in), but what sells books hasn't.  

A book must be good enough to generate word of mouth for it to sell.  Everything else (cover, blurb, reviews, price, your blog, tweetering, etc) is an impulse buy.  The faster you can gather impulse buys, the faster it can generate word of mouth.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Nail. Head.


Ow.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

It wasn't an imperative, Moses.


Betsy


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It wasn't an imperative, Moses.
> 
> 
> Betsy


Can we ask Debora to put a warning on her posts, then? Like when we're NOT supposed to do whatever she recommends?


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Can we ask Debora to put a warning on her posts then? Like when we're NOT supposed to do whatever she recommends?


*snicker*


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

The whole KDP Select thing is a pre-decided deal for me because I'm currently only publishing reprints, and they're not eligible.

I've gotta say, I'm kind of glad I don't have the agony of having to make a choice.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

SBJones said:


> The market has changed (opt in), yet remains the same (do not opt in), but what sells books hasn't.
> 
> A book must be good enough to generate word of mouth for it to sell. Everything else (cover, blurb, reviews, price, your blog, tweetering, etc) is an impulse buy. The faster you can gather impulse buys, the faster it can generate word of mouth.


Took the words out of my mouth. I really like how you phrased this.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I used to be a D&Der and have seen a lot of people ruin campaigns when drunk. Online campaigns even moreso. I could tell you some stories.


Every. Single. Time. It got so bad at one point that I wouldn't go if someone had already been drinking. It's hard enough to get anything done without some careless drunk player hollering at the top of their lungs about molesting and chasing imaginary wenches up and down every tavern in town.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Ian Fraser said:


> I think handing a corporation total control over a creative product you've made, regardless of the appearance of temporary benefit, is to play right into the hands of said corporation.


I agree that handing a corporation total control (or even most of the control) over a creative product would be something to avoid if possible. This is one reason I have not continued to seek a contract with a traditional publisher. If I did, I'd be handing them total control of the boom in multiple mediums almost indefinitely.

If I choose Amazon Select for a single book, on the other hand, I've chosen to give up SOME control for 90 days. I already gave up some control when I agreed to agency pricing. But it's so far from total control that the observation doesn't even apply to Amazon Select.

FWIW, I agree with your assessment of corporations - there's a reason the founding fathers required an act of the legislature to create one.


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

Steven Konkoly said:


> I'd love to hear more from the authors that have been experiencing success at B&N and some of the other sources. I was extremely nervous about going Select, for the same reasons everyone else has voiced; however, I've sold a total of 9 books at Smashwords and 330 at B&N...out of 12,000 total sales over the past year (this is my first year). B&N has been growing, slowly...which caused me some pain to make the decision. What have some of you been doing to promote at these sites...other than put links on your websites. I'm in for 90 days, but beyond that...who knows.


B&N is going well for me (and I don't write erotica or romance) - at the moment I sell 2-3 times as many there as I do on Amazon, and my books have been in the top 1000 there for the last six months. I don't really promote, though. The biggest difference is that I've been on B&N for two years, and on Amazon for about six months. It took months before I began to see progress on B&N, and as far as I can tell it's been via word of mouth. I did have one reader say she'd had an email from B&N recommending my books - it would be fab. if I had Amazon do that! _Wanders off into a daydream..._


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Great conversation going on here, as well as elsewhere, it seems.  To be or not to be?  An author with KDP select.

Glancing over the posts, I gleamed two interesting points. B&N seems to be user unfriendly for authors - I don't think they draw in many readers on the Nookboards so I don't think the avenues for promotion exist there like at Amazon. My books don't do well there - perhaps it's true what someone mentioned - certain genres do better there.

Someone also mentioned they sell some books (particular genre) at a higher price and it's working. Cool.  I think we now need to be statistical analysts in addition to writers, book cover artists, marketing wizards, website masters, etc.  Phew. Time for a Baileys.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Done. Anyone else who needs their name added to the warning, just let me know.


Nice addition to your sig. Now my skull is safe again!

_Posts are not intended as advice, particularly those involving figures of speech. Implement at your own risk. Moses, you have been warned._


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## Gordon Ryan (Aug 20, 2010)

In this ongoing discussion about total control to a corporation, it seems to have gone without reference to the other aspect of traditional publishing ... total control over what you will be writing in the future. For the great pleasure of publishing your current work, all publishing contracts required you to submit your future work to them for review and First Right of Refusal.  Often it required First and LAST Right of refusal. Therefore even if they said no, when someone else said yes, the original publisher had another shot at it.

Where does giving Amazon limited control over ONE book for 90 days curtail your choices?  Seems a no-brainer to me, at least for those for whom most proceeds come from Amazon sales.

GR


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

One thing I'm wondering is if you now almost have to go with Select in order to succesfully compete on Amazon. With so many free promotions, it might be hard to get ordinary sales. Is this a bad thing for writers? I have no idea, but if sales slow down outside of post-free booms, those 5 free days will become very critical. I'm not stating an opinion on this, just speculating on a possibility. It might be certainly possible to accrue as many, or more, sales just off the post-free surges. And those who don't qualify for the free promotions would still have the advantage of selling elsewhere, so I think it might even out. These are interesting times we live in, and personally, I find it exciting to sit around plotting my next move.


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

I don't want to start a new thread for this...

Someone just borrowed my little 1744 word (stated in the description), 99 cent DIY ebook. I included it because it was already exclusive to Amazon, and I figured why not. I never expected anyone to actually borrow it! I hoped someone would see it and think, "Wow, I could get this book for free or a $14.99 book for free -hmmm...it's only 99 cents. What the heck! I'll get the $14.99 book for free and pony up a whopping 99 cents."  

So much for the theory that people won't borrow a 99 cent ebook.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm not exactly a deep thinker so I may be wrong, but I wonder if this program is a way for Amazon to do some internal ebook vetting.  Top sellers will do well and the rest will bit by bit, drop out of the program as there will be no money in it for them...anywhere.

Someone posted a link to an LA Times article on my Facebook page today. The Times seems to be under the impression that only certain, exclusive Amazon kindle writers were invited to participate.  They mentioned, and had quotes from Konrath, Crouch, and some other big sellers.  They never mentioned that anyone can opt in.  It was an odd article where someone either didn't do their homework or we are all missing something crucial.

At any rate, I hope once things settle down, it will work for our kb friends who opted in and for the rest of us as well.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

sibelhodge said:


> My sales rankings are plummeting in US, presumably because I'm not in Select and more borrows are being counted towards sales. I feel like this is a way to force me to opt in because once you get off the top 100 genre lists your sales and exposure decreases. Not a happy bunny.


This is the first time so many indie authors have experienced first-hand how evil Amazon can be. To remain competitive in the store run by the million-pound gorilla, you now feel pressured to withdraw your books from all of the gorilla's competition.

Amazon has been great for us overall, but damn if I don't *hate* what they're doing with this requirement for exclusivity. This is not how the market should be. I should be able to write a book and sell it at B&N, Amazon, iBooks, Kobo, and everywhere else without the fear that Amazon is going to undermine my ability to sell books on Amazon because I don't want to give them a monopoly on me.


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Amazon has been great for us overall, but d*mn if I don't *hate* what they're doing with this requirement for exclusivity. This is not how the market should be. I should be able to write a book and sell it at B&N, Amazon, iBooks, Kobo, and everywhere else without the fear that Amazon is going to undermine my ability to sell books on Amazon because I don't want to give them a monopoly on me.


That's how I see it, too. If Amazon ends up crushing its competition, then authors won't have other places to sell their books. At that point, writers who want to have other large distributors for their eBooks may find the distributors that exist now are no longer in business. If Amazon changes its policies to be even more restrictive in the future and it's the only game in town, there won't be much authors will be able do about it. Authors can always self-publish on their own websites; but, seriously, how many eBooks are most authors going to sell that way? I see a possible future in which most authors write books for free, for no real income and very little possibility of ever establishing a real income from their writing.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> This is the first time so many indie authors have experienced first-hand how evil Amazon can be. To remain competitive in the store run by the million-pound gorilla, you now feel pressured to withdraw your books from all of the gorilla's competition.
> 
> Amazon has been great for us overall, but d*mn if I don't *hate* what they're doing with this requirement for exclusivity. This is not how the market should be. I should be able to write a book and sell it at B&N, Amazon, iBooks, Kobo, and everywhere else without the fear that Amazon is going to undermine my ability to sell books on Amazon because I don't want to give them a monopoly on me.


Go down Moses to the promised land. I agree with you 100% and don't understand why many here rushed to join up with stifling competition. No matter how big or powerful Amazon is, encouraging writers to be exclusive with them is predatory to say the least. I think this will backfire once writers realize the pernicious nature of this select program. Having healthy competition is best for writers. Having unhealthy competition that benefits some writers in the short run is shortsighted. Why help Amazon discourage competition?


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## kurzon (Feb 26, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Someone posted a link to an LA Times article on my Facebook page today. The Times seems to be under the impression that only certain, exclusive Amazon kindle writers were invited to participate. They mentioned, and had quotes from Konrath, Crouch, and some other big sellers. They never mentioned that anyone can opt in. It was an odd article where someone either didn't do their homework or we are all missing something crucial.
> 
> At any rate, I hope once things settle down, it will work for our kb friends who opted in and for the rest of us as well.


I believe they discussed the program with selected high-selling authors before moving to the "anyone" stage.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I guess the article missed the hoi polloi portion of the program.  LOL


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Go down Moses to the promised land. I agree with you 100% and don't understand why many here rushed to join up with stifling competition. No matter how big or powerful Amazon is, encouraging writers to be exclusive with them is predatory to say the least. I think this will backfire once writers realize the pernicious nature of this select program. Having healthy competition is best for writers. Having unhealthy competition that benefits some writers in the short run is shortsighted. Why help Amazon discourage competition?


I don't understand why many here were so quick to dump other distribution channels for some rather unappetizing benefits, but I don't agree that Amazon is discouraging or stifling their competition. They're not attacking them with lawyers. They're not inserting riders into bills to make the business environment untenable. They're offering their suppliers a "better" offer. That is increasing the level of competition, pure and simple.

If they want to retain indie authors, it is now up to firms like B&N and Smashwords to respond. And it's about time they felt some pressure. I've seen no movement from them in months. If Mark wants to get back the 30K plus authors he just lost, he's gonna have to give them something shiny. (EPUB uploads, perhaps. That would get my attention.) Same goes for B&N. (How about kicking it up a notch with those also boughts?)

Me, I'm happy to remain in the non-chosing anti-choice side (Did I get that right, Terrance?). My sales on Amazon are stable. My sales on B&N are up. I'm still struggling to find better conduits for my international readers, but I certainly don't feel like I have _fewer_ choices. I feel like I have more of them.

B.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

modwitch said:


> ...But I've been watching a year where the algos, promotions, and trad-pub behaviors on Amazon have made life for indies progressively more difficult. It's been harder to compete. Now we have something leveling things out a little. Forget free - we have a playing field in the lending library that the big publishers have largely opted out of. There have been at least rumors of preorder pages, paid promo opportunities, and true price-discounting perhaps coming as part of Select - all tools the big publishers already have...


Those are the tools I'm waiting for. They offer visibility and the potential to make a real difference.


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

modwitch said:


> But I've been watching a year where the algos, promotions, and trad-pub behaviors on Amazon have made life for indies progressively more difficult. It's been harder to compete. Now we have something leveling things out a little. Forget free - we have a playing field in the lending library that the big publishers have largely opted out of. There have been at least rumors of preorder pages, paid promo opportunities, and true price-discounting perhaps coming as part of Select - all tools the big publishers already have.
> 
> I hear and understand the concerns about the long term. I hear and understand that all of us would rather have these tools without exclusivity. But there is a very real, existing threat happening now within the Amazon marketplace - and we just got handed a very real opportunity, however flawed it may be. I'm giving it a shot.


Even though I've seen downloads of my KDP Select titles increase by 200% and 300% during free promotions and my actual sales figures plummet since KDP Select started, I'm torn because I agree with what you're saying here. Right now, Amazon is providing some really great tools for indie and self-published authors to compete with the traditional publishers, most of which are owned by such monolithic corporations, they make Amazon look like David competing with Goliath. Maybe Amazon will solve the problem of the Big Six controlling the books that are published. I just hope that, when all is said and done, Amazon continues to treat its indie and self-published authors in such a way that they still have the opportunity to make a real income.


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

Woah. Just read Passive Guy's take on the Non-competition clause. (Thanks for the link, Sibel.)

Assuming this is lifted straight from the KDP Select contract (Passive Guy doesn't specify), this is an object of serious concern. I have seen authors' entire careers put on hold because of non-competition clauses. Those of you who are running a series -- and especially those of you who are doing well with it, because you're the ones Amazon will be keeping an eye on -- think very very carefully before accepting this clause.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if you go into it, do it with your eyes open. In a worst-case scenario (say if Amazon alters the KDP Select contract to be even more restrictive and you decide you want out) you could be blocked from distributing books from KDP Select _or any other books in the same series_ at other retailers for six months.

Also, that first paragraph is so vaguely-worded that it could be construed to mean that you may not publish any other works under your own name anywhere except at Amazon. Once you put one book in KDP Select, you've given Amazon leverage to force you to put all your other books there, too. And if it comes down to a legal battle, you can bet your booty that Amazon can afford better lawyers than you.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm quite pleased with the Select program so far. For one thing, more people are borrowing my books than I thought would do so. For another thing, my free promotions have resulted in a significant increase in sales, if only a temporary one (though I remain concerned with the widespread effect of so many free books). My goal is this: To think for myself and do what is in the best interests of my writing. Why? Because companies--ALL companies--will do what is in their best interests first and foremost. As a professional writer, I feel I must look after myself or get stepped on. Therefore, I cannot be guilted into avoiding the Select program if it offers me something useful (which it just might). But each to their own!


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> Yep, that's how I feel, too. And one of the things worrying me is the exclusivity clause that says you can't distribute other books that might compete with it, meaning all your other books. So if you only opt in with 1 title and all your other books are distributed elsewhere, they can enforce that clause. See Passive Guy's take on this wording: http://www.thepassivevoice.com/11/2011/how-to-read-a-book-contract-%E2%80%93-non-competition-2/ b That's pretty scary stuff!


I strongly disagree that it means "all your other books." Many have opted in only one or two books out of several, and Amazon has not cracked down on them for it. Amazon isn't stupid. If they sought to enforce that, no one would renew after 90 days and no new authors would opt in. I read the Passive Guy's post and it deals with different language than the Amazon Select contract. Two different books by the same author do not reasonably compete with each other. However, the same two books with different titles or on different outlets do.


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## Harry Nicholson (May 25, 2011)

I prefer a broad spread of competition. Amazon is generous right now - but when they have swept away the competitors, what then?


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> I think two different books by the same author can be classed as competing with each other, but I wouldn't want to find out for definite in court, or when Amazon kick me off KDP for having another book available through another channel. That's my main worry.


Sibil, I seriously doubt that would ever happen. If it happens, I'll eat my dirty socks. How's that for a guarantee?


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

> Two different books by the same author do not reasonably compete with each other.


I beg to differ. Carrie Vaughan left her publisher over precisely this kind of disagreement.

More and more, Amazon is stepping into the role of a traditional publisher, and pulling the same tricks. That's not necessarily bad for authors, but I do think it is worth asking oneself at which point this stops being self-publishing and starts being traditional publishing without an advance.


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

> Many have opted in only one or two books out of several, and Amazon has not cracked down on them for it. Amazon isn't stupid. If they sought to enforce that, no one would renew after 90 days and no new authors would opt in.


Of course Amazon hasn't cracked down on anyone yet. The system's brand new. And perhaps they will never invoke those clauses. My point is that if the legal language of the contract gives them the right to do so, it's worth stopping to think about.

Do you trust Amazon not to excercise those rights even if it should some day be in their best interest to do so? I don't.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

Nancy Fulda said:


> Of course Amazon hasn't cracked down on anyone yet. The system's brand new. And perhaps they will never invoke those clauses. My point is that the legal language of the contract give them the right to do so, and that's worth stopping to think about.
> 
> Do you trust Amazon not to exercise those rights even if it should some day be in their best interest to do so? I don't.


I don't know. But Amazon could just terminate the account of every indie too if they wanted.  I'm guessing they won't. So far, their track record of working with indies has been pretty good, so yeah, they've inspired a bit of trust. But opting some of my books in Select doesn't really feel like much of a gamble anyway, to be honest. The stakes don't seem all that high. Why? Simple: 90 days. If I'm not satisfied after three months, I won't opt anything in again. Really, some of these fears seem like sheer paranoia.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

...


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

> Really, some of these fears seem like sheer paranoia.


Paranoia and Prudence are close sisters 

I don't think anyone here is claiming that there aren't good, solid reasons for joining KDP Select. It's just that there are also good, solid reasons to be cautious. It's a matter of weighing pros and cons.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

Nancy Fulda said:


> Paranoia and Prudence are close sisters
> 
> I don't think anyone here is claiming that there aren't good, solid reasons for joining KDP Select. It's just that there are also good, solid reasons to be cautious. It's a matter of weighing pros and cons.


I'll hit the "like" button on that post.


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

I've taken a look at the KDP Select Terms and Conditions.

They are indeed far tamer than the example Passive Guy quoted. The sections I consider most nebulous are:



> During this period of exclusivity, *you cannot sell or distribute, or give anyone else the right to sell or distribute*, your Digital Book (*or content that is reasonably likely to compete commercially with your Digital Book*, diminish its value, or be confused with it)


What is reasonable competition? That phrase leaves a lot of wriggle-room in Amazon's favor. Also, the restriction on selling or distribution prevents free samples, review copies, gifts to friends, etc. etc. that are not distributed through Amazon's web site.



> Your Digital Book's participation will automatically renew for additional 90-day periods, unless you opt out through the KDP website before renewal. We can end KDP Select at any time in our discretion; if we do, these terms and conditions will no longer be in effect, except Section 5 will survive.


The contract does not specify when renewal will happen. At the end of the 90-day period? At the beginning? Is Amazon authorized to renew books for multiple 90-day periods at once?

Also, Amazon is allowed to boot you out of KDP Select at their discretion, and if they do, you are STILL legally prevented from distributing the book anywhere else until the current 90-day period expires.



> If you don't comply with these KDP Select terms and conditions, we will not owe you Royalties for that Digital Book earned through the Kindle Owners' Lending Library Program, *and we may offset any of those Royalties that were previously paid against future Royalties, or require you to remit them to us*.


Offset which Royalties? Those for the specific book under dispute, or any Royalties already earned? (I'm guessing it can be construed as the latter.) Also, note the last few words: Amazon isn't just threatening to withhold Royalties. They can bill you for Royalties that have already been paid out, and there is no cap on the size of the bill.

[All emphasis is my own. Also please note that I'm not a lawyer and have no legal training. This is just my initial response to the contract as an author and as a human being.]


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh -- I'm also not happy with section 2.1 of the KDP Terms and Conditions.



> Changes to terms of this Agreement other than those contained in Section 5.4.1 (Royalties) and 5.5 (Grant of Rights) will be effective on the date we post them, unless we otherwise provide at the time we post the changes. You are responsible for checking for updates and your continued use of the Program after we post changes will constitute your acceptance of the changes.


The KDP Select Terms and Conditions are officially part of the KDP Terms and Conditions, which means that Amazon has the right to change any part of the KDP Select Terms and Conditions at any time, and those changes will become effective immediately. (This includes the right to change the automatically-renewing exclusivity periods from 90 days to 180 or even 365 days. Think very carefully about what that means.)

Again, I'm not trying to shout doom and gloom. I'm looking very closely at KDP Select because it might be in my best interests to use it at some point. But the fact that it's a roving contract that can be freely changed by Amazon and completely terminated at Amazon's whim while still holding the author to the remainder of the exclusivity period... I confess, that makes me a little nervous.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

Marilyn Peake said:


> I see a possible future in which most authors write books for free, for no real income and very little possibility of ever establishing a real income from their writing.


And why does anyone expect the future will not become the past? It's going to happen no matter what individual choices we make today.

This is the Golden Age. All Golden Ages dim. As Dr. Seuss said, "Be happy that it happened, not sad because it's over."


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Nancy Fulda said:


> The KDP Select Terms and Conditions are officially part of the KDP Terms and Conditions, which means that Amazon has the right to change any part of the KDP Select Terms and Conditions at any time, and those changes will become effective immediately. (This includes the right to change the automatically-renewing exclusivity periods from 90 days to 180 or even 365 days. Think very carefully about what that means.)


Yes, but what you're (accurately) saying is that this issue has nothing to do with Select and everything to do with the fact that Amazon can alter the KDP terms at any time even if you don't opt-in to select. They could decide tomorrow that the terms of the regular KDP agreement require exclusivity, and everyone who's already published has to be exclusive. That is no less possible than what you are suggesting. So I wouldn't let this concern impact your decision. There are plenty of other concerns, but if you're published on Amazon at all, I don't think this is an additional one for KDP select.


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## StephenEngland (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, I did NOT opt in, and I had my best weekend of "non-promotion" sales this past weekend--but I'll admit, it hacks me off to think that my sales rankings are having to compete against borrowed books. This is almost as idiotic as the writers claiming to be "Smashwords Bestsellers" on the strength of multiple giveaways.


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## karencantwell (Jun 17, 2010)

Robert E. Keller said:


> Sibil, I seriously doubt that would ever happen. If it happens, I'll eat my dirty socks. How's that for a guarantee?


Will you post a video of this event to YouTube? 

I'm also of the opinion that Amazon would not pull such a harsh maneuver. Those who have series that are selling well are making money for Amazon, so what would be the benefit? I COULD see them making even more tempting offers to well-selling series authors in the future to entice them and their series into the program, however.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

sibelhodge said:


> My sales rankings are plummeting in US, presumably because I'm not in Select and more borrows are being counted towards sales. I feel like this is a way to force me to opt in because once you get off the top 100 genre lists your sales and exposure decreases. Not a happy bunny.


I'm in the Select program and my sales are down. I wouldn't say they're "plummeting" but they're dipping. I think it has less to do with Select than with Christmas shopping.


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Are there any authors here who signed up to KDP select immediately?  What has happened with your sales since then with or without having any "free" promo days?
It is difficult, however, to make sense of anything right now because on top of the new KDP select, it's Christmas time when ebook sales may be higher than normal (or even lower than normal?). 

It just seems to me, however, that many Indies over the last year have intermittently had their books for free and that with all the free books downloaded all the time, readers' Kindles are stocked - there is only so much time a person has to read - lots of folks probably have enough to read for a year.


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## iamstoryteller (Jul 16, 2010)

Robert E. Keller said:


> ... My goal is this: To think for myself and do what is in the best interests of my writing. Why? Because companies--ALL companies--will do what is in their best interests first and foremost. As a professional writer, I feel I must look after myself or get stepped on. Therefore, I cannot be guilted into avoiding the Select program if it offers me something useful (which it just might). But each to their own!


A sensible approach...


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## JBarry22 (Dec 12, 2011)

StephenEngland said:


> Well, I did NOT opt in, and I had my best weekend of "non-promotion" sales this past weekend--but I'll admit, it hacks me off to think that my sales rankings are having to compete against borrowed books. This is almost as idiotic as the writers claiming to be "Smashwords Bestsellers" on the strength of multiple giveaways.


What's that they say? 80% of statistics are made up? Or was it 75%? I can't remember


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Nancy Fulda said:


> Paranoia and Prudence are close sisters
> 
> I don't think anyone here is claiming that there aren't good, solid reasons for joining KDP Select. It's just that there are also good, solid reasons to be cautious. It's a matter of weighing pros and cons.


Exactly. I can see where Select would work for some authors, but I know it won't work for me. I'll start publishing a new series in March or April and I may decide it's worth it to opt in with that one at least for the 90 days.


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## keithdbz (May 19, 2010)

My vote is for you authors to forget about the broken sales rank system Amazon has in place and write future works. There, I said it.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

keithdbz said:


> My vote is for you authors to forget about the broken sales rank system Amazon has in place and write future works. There, I said it.


Can't do anything about it anyway and there's no guarantee that if I join Select, my rankings will improve.

I'm writing like mad (I have enough stories mapped out to take me through 2012) and giving away freebies on SW and planning new promotions. All I can do after that is light candles and pray.


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## JodyWallace (Mar 29, 2011)

Mournful lyrics about company stores and selling one's soul are starting to toll in my head. You write 16K...and what do you get? *laugh*


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

JodyWallace said:


> Mournful lyrics about company stores and selling one's soul are starting to toll in my head. You write 16K...and what do you get? *laugh*


I'll go along with the 'nother day older part. I think I'm getting another day older as each hour ticks by.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Just popping in with the perspective of someone who doesn't sell many books (a little less than a hundred a month over all titles), my sales have improved since Select was introduced.  Not my rankings, I haven't had any borrows, but making a couple of my books free for a day or two improved sales across the board, and now that they're not free any more they're still selling--Resonance: Birds of Passage, for example, hadn't sold a single copy for more than two months, but got over a thousand downloads while it was free and has sold two copies since the giveaway ended yesterday.

So.  Just, y'know, one low level indie's experience with Select so far   It might all be a coincidence, of course. But then again, it might not be.


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

"My vote is for you authors to forget about the broken sales rank system Amazon has in place and write future works. There, I said it."

Keith, you said it, and I thought it today.  Hmm.....better start the next book; and here I was taking a much needed small break after publishing two in a row since August (although it took me three years to write Outcome, A Novel).

Reading the fine print of the KDP Select contract is scarey!


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

Doctor Barbara said:


> Are there any authors here who signed up to KDP select immediately? What has happened with your sales since then with or without having any "free" promo days?
> It is difficult, however, to make sense of anything right now because on top of the new KDP select, it's Christmas time when ebook sales may be higher than normal (or even lower than normal?).
> 
> It just seems to me, however, that many Indies over the last year have intermittently had their books for free and that with all the free books downloaded all the time, readers' Kindles are stocked - there is only so much time a person has to read - lots of folks probably have enough to read for a year.


I didn't hesitate in signing up because Amazon has been so good for me while the other vendors have not. In the first day of giving away one of my titles for free, there were close 7,000 downloads, boosting it to #1 in two (free) genre categories, #12 in overall Fiction and #17 in all ebook genres.

While this can be ego-boosting, I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude. What effect, if any, will this have on my sales after the two-day promo is over? If you give away free beer, you'll attract a horde of freeloaders. But will they return to your pub to give their business later?


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## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

"  If you give away free beer, you'll attract a horde of freeloaders. But will they return to your pub to give their business later?  "

--- Someone mentioned a pub ?  Free Guinness?


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

It is important to keep in mind that with KDP Select we indies are operating in a parallel universe. First, I truly doubt any established author is going to give up sales through B&N, et al. and put all his/her eggs in one, i.e. Amazon, basket. Second, lest we let the exposure through freebies get to our heads, those download figures have no wash-over into the paid lists side of things. Third, you don't come up on the "Also Bought" function even if your title is no. 1 in a given "free" category. In fact, my paranoid nature takes over even on the paid side. For example, two of my novels have been steady paid bestsellers on the Political Fiction list since early 2011, yet the "Also Boughts" are almost exclusively other indie authors despite my having outsold some of the biggies in my genre. Evil Amazon algorithms at play here?

So, I question just how much benefit will come from thousands of free downloads of one's book when we indies appear to be ghettoized in a parallel universe.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

angkor said:


> It is important to keep in mind that with KDP Select we indies are operating in a parallel universe. First, I truly doubt any established author is going to give up sales through B&N, et al. and put all his/her eggs in one, i.e. Amazon, basket.


If you mean will an established author choose to put one of their books in Select, I'm not sure they wouldn't. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some established authors choose to do what a lot of indies have done - keep most of the books available everywhere and use Select on a limited basis for one or two books at a time. If you mean, will most traditionally published books wind up in the lending library, that is a different issue. Amazon tried to get publishers to sign on (rumor has it at full royalty per lend) and they did not. Almost certainly they did not require exclusivity, publishers just did not want readers to get used to "free" books, or contribute even more to Amazon's dominance.



angkor said:


> Second, lest we let the exposure through freebies get to our heads, those download figures have no wash-over into the paid lists side of things.


Not true at all. Read some of the other threads here. After going back to Paid, you wind up at a really bad rank for several hours, then some sort of formula we don't understand kicks in and the ranking improves to far higher than it would have if those free sales weren't counted at all. Many, though not all, authors wind up with significantly increased paid sales for days and weeks afterwards. Especially for a book that wasn't selling a lot to begin with, there's very little downside to going free for a few days.



angkor said:


> Third, you don't come up on the "Also Bought" function even if your title is no. 1 in a given "free" category. In fact, my paranoid nature takes over even on the paid side. For example, two of my novels have been steady paid bestsellers on the Political Fiction list since early 2011, yet the "Also Boughts" are almost exclusively other indie authors despite my having outsold some of the biggies in my genre. Evil Amazon algorithms at play here?


No, you're just selling to different customers. The fact that you sold 5000 political thrillers and Vince Flynn sold 4000 political thrillers does not mean they are the same customers and therefore he should be in your Also Boughts. You have different customers due to pricing and reader preferences (some readers are happy to try indies - many aren't) not Amazon. In fact, Amazon's algorithms provide us with the best chance anywhere to break through the barrier between indies and tradpub. If you really want to break the barrier, you could price your book at $9.99. I wouldn't recommend it, because you'll have to overcome the obscurity problem with a lot fewer impulse buyers, but if you get through that, readers may assume your book is better or even tradpub because you're charging more



angkor said:


> So, I question just how much benefit will come from thousands of free downloads of one's book when we indies appear to be ghettoized in a parallel universe.


I think you're right about ghettoization occurring, but it's not Amazon's doing. Amazon Select doesn't make it worse, certainly. As for benefit, read any one of a dozen threads in the past couple weeks about how many extra sales many authors are having after their free book goes back paid. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it does to quite a few.

The issue of whether too much free content will eventually cannibalize sales is certainly one to consider. Authors have been claiming that it will cause destruction for several years now. It has not done so, which does not mean it won't do so in the future. But an individual author going free with a book selling fewer than 5-6 copies a day has proven successful at raising the total number of paid sales. It seems to especially work well for authors who also have other books that are selling better that remain paid.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

> We may, in our discretion, reformat your Digital Books, and you acknowledge that unintentional errors may occur in the process of reformatting of your Digital Books. If any such errors do occur, you may remove the affected Digital Book from further sale in the Program as provided in Section 5.1.4 above, and this will be your only remedy for the errors. We may also, in our discretion, correct any errors existing in a Digital Book file as you deliver it to us.[/end quote]
> 
> Does this mean we get free editing? Yay!
> 
> Brian said something about the NYT being a reliable Bestsellers list. Not exactly. They gather reports from a select few (I think 20- 50) bookstores who report the numbers of the top twenty books they've pre-ordered for that week. If they start to sell, great, they'll keep reporting that book. So its only those select few stores.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a 2012 prediction.

I think if the Prime program is successful at all for the Fire, it will be tiered at some point this year and that folk will get a base level of service (most likely what they're getting now with the free shipping and single book download), but will also be able to upgrade for $10 more to a Prime Plus status where subscribers get a couple of movie downloads and 2 books per month, and a Prime Gold program for an additional $20 where they get 3 streamed movies and 4 books per month.

Because, you know, the status quo has precious little _status _ in it anymore, and the only thing holding Amazon back from offering such a tiered subscription program last month was lack of content since a lot of the big publishers aren't playing. With 50K+ titles now in the Lending Library, Amazon will have enough of a pool to collate data and make decisions about volume, velocity and costs -- by May is my prediction.


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

edwardgtalbot said:


> If you mean will an established author choose to put one of their books in Select, I'm not sure they wouldn't. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some established authors choose to do what a lot of indies have done - keep most of the books available everywhere and use Select on a limited basis for one or two books at a time. If you mean, will most traditionally published books wind up in the lending library, that is a different issue. Amazon tried to get publishers to sign on (rumor has it at full royalty per lend) and they did not. Almost certainly they did not require exclusivity, publishers just did not want readers to get used to "free" books, or contribute even more to Amazon's dominance.
> Not true at all. Read some of the other threads here. After going back to Paid, you wind up at a really bad rank for several hours, then some sort of formula we don't understand kicks in and the ranking improves to far higher than it would have if those free sales weren't counted at all. Many, though not all, authors wind up with significantly increased paid sales for days and weeks afterwards. Especially for a book that wasn't selling a lot to begin with, there's very little downside to going free for a few days.
> No, you're just selling to different customers. The fact that you sold 5000 political thrillers and Vince Flynn sold 4000 political thrillers does not mean they are the same customers and therefore he should be in your Also Boughts. You have different customers due to pricing and reader preferences (some readers are happy to try indies - many aren't) not Amazon. In fact, Amazon's algorithms provide us with the best chance anywhere to break through the barrier between indies and tradpub. If you really want to break the barrier, you could price your book at $9.99. I wouldn't recommend it, because you'll have to overcome the obscurity problem with a lot fewer impulse buyers, but if you get through that, readers may assume your book is better or even tradpub because you're charging more
> I think you're right about ghettoization occurring, but it's not Amazon's doing. Amazon Select doesn't make it worse, certainly. As for benefit, read any one of a dozen threads in the past couple weeks about how many extra sales many authors are having after their free book goes back paid. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it does to quite a few.
> ...


This is excellent insight in response to my rather devil's advocate commentary. Thanks, Ed Talbot, and please continue to provide further such insights for our collective benefit.

Re the ghettoizing phenomenon in connection with "Also Bought," it's just that my bestselling books appeared binder-to-binder next to those of biggies in my genre -- until early summer when suddenly I found myself in the (respectable) company of other indies solely -- despite my books continuing to be paid genre bestsellers. It made me scratch my head and wonder about those pesky Amazon algorithms.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2011)

I really think it's too early to know how this is going to work.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"So, I question just how much benefit will come from thousands of free downloads of one's book when we indies appear to be ghettoized in a parallel universe."_

I found it interesting that prices are not shown on the Kindle list of Prime Select books. There definitely are published books being offered, but one cannot scan the list and use price to identify independents. That is a step away from the ghetto. I don't know any other place on Amazon where price is not shown right next to title.

A consumer can click on the book and go to the book page where price is shown, but that's fine. Getting them to click is half the battle. i can usually pick independents by a quick scan of prices in a list. Can't do it with Prime Select


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

At first I didn't think the exclusivity was too big of a deal, afterall after 90 days the author can opt-out. But, if you think about it *why* exactly would Amazon need your title to be exclusive to them while they offer it as a "borrow" ebook for Prime? If Amazon is letting them borrow your ebook and it's also for sale on Amazon and elsewhere--why does it need to be exclusive? The deal they pitched to the Big 6 wasn't exclusive.

If B&N or SW or Apple are selling it for 3.99 and Amazon is giving it as a borrow--where is the big advantage for Amazon? It is almost a needless condition. I think this exclusive aspect is more than I had originally thought. They learned that many have little problem being exclusive and I suspect there will be more deals coming where exclusive is a condition.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Sure, I think they'll be adding stuff to Select, retaining the exclusivity. I hope they add the ability to do a 5 day price reduction, besides the 5 day free. That would be great. They could add the ability to buy Amazon advertising too.


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## peggytrentini (Feb 24, 2011)

As of today my sales and ranking have increased nicely. I am finally pushed into the 5000 sales rank. I have over 30 loans and my sales have gone from 13 books a day to 20 books a day on average. I have not utilized the free promotion yet and will probably wait til things slow after the Holidays. It meant very little to me that I had to be exclusive to Amazon as the other outlets gave me dismal sales and aren't very supportive of Indy authors. I have a don't bite the hand attitude and am thrilled with my book sales from Amazon. I signed up to KDP Select immediatey. I never gave it a second thought. In fact I can't wait to see what they come up with next!


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

They will if they like the beer enough.



BRONZEAGE said:


> " If you give away free beer, you'll attract a horde of freeloaders. But will they return to your pub to give their business later? "
> 
> --- Someone mentioned a pub ? Free Guinness?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"If B&N or SW or Apple are selling it for 3.99 and Amazon is giving it as a borrow--where is the big advantage for Amazon? It is almost a needless condition. I think this exclusive aspect is more than I had originally thought. They learned that many have little problem being exclusive and I suspect there will be more deals coming where exclusive is a condition."_

The big advantage is the same as with any exclusive retail situation. There is only one place to get the goods, so it attracts people to the store. There are two exclusives here. One is the Select books are only found on Amazon. The other is that even on Amazon, the free Select books are exclusive to Prime members with Kindles. So it is an incentive to join Prime and buy a Kindle for an exclusive set of goods.

I agree exclusivity is not a necessary condition for Select free. So what? Competitive firms have no reason to limit themselves to what is necessary

Sure there will be more exclusive deals. They could extend the exclusive period to six months or a year, or offer Premium eExclusive to a targeted group. And we have to remember Amazon isn't making anything exclusive. The authors are.


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## peggytrentini (Feb 24, 2011)

angkor said:


> This is excellent insight in response to my rather devil's advocate commentary. Thanks, Ed Talbot, and please continue to provide further such insights for our collective benefit.
> 
> Re the ghettoizing phenomenon in connection with "Also Bought," it's just that my bestselling books appeared binder-to-binder next to those of biggies in my genre -- until early summer when suddenly I found myself in the (respectable) company of other indies solely -- despite my books continuing to be paid genre bestsellers. It made me scratch my head and wonder about those pesky Amazon algorithms.


I have priced my ebook at 7.99 and have been competing quite successfully with the trad pubs. In fact I think if I raised it to 9.99 I would still be competitive. I'm just afraid to rock the boat and push my luck. My next book I will definitely come out the gate at 9.99.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

angkor said:


> This is excellent insight in response to my rather devil's advocate commentary. Thanks, Ed Talbot, and please continue to provide further such insights for our collective benefit.
> 
> Re the ghettoizing phenomenon in connection with "Also Bought," it's just that my bestselling books appeared binder-to-binder next to those of biggies in my genre -- until early summer when suddenly I found myself in the (respectable) company of other indies solely -- despite my books continuing to be paid genre bestsellers. It made me scratch my head and wonder about those pesky Amazon algorithms.


Yeah, I hear you on that. Debora Geary (modwitch) probably follows the ins and outs of algorithms more than anyone, and she might have more details about the more major shifting of algorithms that happened in the April-June timeframe this year. Her details will be speculation like the rest of ours, but hers are awfully darned informed.

My political thriller rarely has any other political thrillers in its Also Boughts, let alone non-indie political thrillers. It didn't get into the top 20 more than once, but it was hanging around 30-60 for several months. I'm not complaining, because the books in its Also Boughts mostly were good matches, they just weren't in the official category that my book is in.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

modwitch said:


> What I do think has changed (and this is where I'm getting really speculative) is I think Amazon is grouping also boughts more tightly by price.


Not just price (which I've noticed too) but comparable rank as well, though I think Amazon has been doing this pretty much all along and that's why it's gone unobserved here. Newbies reading may not realize that a book consistently ranking in the 40,000's will rarely appear in the also-bots of books with a consistent ranking in the 400s, though the reverse could be true. It's another way Amazon rewards better-selling books. It's not so much which books are in YOUR also-bots (with the exception of your own series books), but which also-bot lists your book is in. Your 40K-ranked book may have 20 bestseller titles in its also-bots, but your book may only be associated with a handful of books that sell 5 or 10 copies a month. While this arrangement slightly benefits those bestsellers in your list, it only has a tiny impact on your book's sales. That's why promotion outside of Amazon is important. Or why using free to promote internally can help.

True, Amazon is looking out for the customer, but it can only take a broad-sweep approach to buying behavior. If the algorithms have to choose a similar book to display when genre and price are equal, the next factor is popularity. Those also-bots are far from a democratic display...


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I completely agree with your observation, but I'm going to disagree this is the reason. A book ranking in the 40Ks is selling, what - 30-40 copies a month? A book in the 400s is selling 4000 a month. When you sell a lot more books, the "democratic" approach (how often does a customer buy your book and another, or one sale, one vote) is going to favor books that sell more. In a book ranked in the 40Ks, you can probably get to the first couple of also bought pages by having 10 linked sales or so. For a book in the 400s, you probably need 200 linked sales or so (guessing here). That book in the 40Ks just doesn't sell enough copies in total to drive that kind of linkage. (And, most readers don't browse both the 400 and 40K ranges - so you have less people covering the geographic territory needed to create those links).
> 
> In other words, I don't think Amazon has to mess with anything - reader behavior will generate the patterns you're seeing. It definitely favors books selling more copies.


So what you're saying here (if I interpret that correctly) is the only way to get in that 400 range is by a big push, that it really cannot be done by a slow climb. If so, I wonder how high a book could get with the slow climb method.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

modwitch said:


> In other words, I don't think Amazon has to mess with anything - reader behavior will generate the patterns you're seeing. It definitely favors books selling more copies.


Mmmhmm. I think a lot of what people see as Amazon messing with things is actually customer generated. It makes sense when you break it down. The very popular books have a much larger sample to 'also-bought' from so of course my book doesn't match as well as some of the others who have sold more. A book in a similar sales band to mine has much fewer comparison points and therefore is more likely to have my book come up in their list.


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## acellis (Oct 10, 2011)

NEVER put all your eggs in one basket!


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Not at all. But looking for a book in the 40Ks to be in the also boughts of books in the 400s isn't asking for a slow climb . I personally think most authors have to get themselves into the top 5000 or so (and for most, that's a slow climb). Then Amazon begins to help - you end up in also boughts of other books in the 2-10K range. As you move up, you start to find yourself in also boughts of higher ranked books. There are lots of deviations from this path, and sometimes it takes more than one release to get high enough to catch a ride on the algos - but I don't think you have to lift your book to anything near 400 for it to happen. I'd aim more for getting it to 4000 and holding it there for at least a week or two.


Interesting stuff. I like it.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

acellis said:


> NEVER put all your eggs in one basket!


"Put all your eggs in one basket--and watch that basket!" - Andrew Carnegie (popularlized by Mark Twain)


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I am tired of gentle warnings about KDP select. I think it's time to break out the big guns. Perhaps a ruler to the hand or a stern admonishment?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

jillmyles said:


> I just wanted to say that I am tired of gentle warnings about KDP select. I think it's time to break out the big guns. Perhaps a ruler to the hand or a stern admonishment?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


>


Closer! I think we need more anger. More _sturm und drang_. Won't someone come and tell me that logical discussions have no business here? Anyone?


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Yup. You'd think the guy who started this thread could come up with something along those lines...


I think he's busy creating more Dalglish/McAfee photochop montages to the new Mortal Kombat.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Yup. You'd think the guy who started this thread could come up with something along those lines...


Sure. Let me get right on that. Just a second here...


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

And now, for a slightly less gentle warning about KDP Select...


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

*LOL*


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Those also-bots are far from a democratic display..."_

What's that?


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Huh. Well, I was thinking swords, but that'll do.
> 
> <Goes off to hunt for radiation suit. Those work, right?>


Not against bombs of this magnitude. We're talking megaton-superscale-666-warheads. All indie life outside KDP Select will be reduced to ash.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

_Nice_ picture. Boy are those birds in for a surprise in their tail feathers!


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Now THAT is a warning. I approve of this message!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I just realized Betsy shrank my image. Further proof to the great length this conspiracy goes. By reducing the size of the image, Betsy is reducing the potency of the warning, trying to downplay the epic struggle Amazon is about to unleash upon all who have not yet bowed the knee to the god Prime.

It is too late. They have taken the Kindleboards. We are all next.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Will this protect us?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Not as long as I have my atomic hat!!!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Oh, that's messed up.


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## cidneyswanson (Feb 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> No.


Laughing so hard here that the family have located me in my secret hideaway. Next time I will duct-tape my mouth shut before reading Modwitch or Half-Orc posts. (Or Moniques, Gerties, Genevieve's . . . Hmmm. . . where did I leave that duct tape?)


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




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## Skate (Jan 23, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


>


Thank you. I don't know why, but that just made me giggle...a lot.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Beatrice's cat got to him.


I always new that had HAD to be good for something.


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

I see the serious topic of reader's Kindles being stocked with free books which will last them the rest of their lifetime (why ever buy again?) has gone to comedy.  (How do you like that long sentence?).

Glad I popped back in.  You all are too funny.    Great picsl


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> I just realized Betsy shrank my image. Further proof to the great length this conspiracy goes. By reducing the size of the image, Betsy is reducing the potency of the warning, trying to downplay the epic struggle Amazon is about to unleash upon all who have not yet bowed the knee to the god Prime.
> 
> It is too late. They have taken the Kindleboards. We are all next.


It was making my iPad screen bounce....sorry about the epic struggle thing... 

Betsy


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

genevieveaclark said:


> Beatrice's cat got to him.


That hat wouldn't even make honorable mention at Ascot.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm surrendering to the omnipotent. *Waves white flag.* KDP Select, honey, here I come.


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## BarbraAnnino (Jan 27, 2011)

This is from a writer's group I belong to. Just something to watch for when you do put a Select book into the free pile.

_An author I know who's selling better than I am has put one of her books
into the Kindle Select program. She's only had one person borrow the book,
which kinda surprised her, as she was expecting a lot more borrows. On the
days that she designated her book to be free -- those "free" days are
Amazon's touted benefit to the program -- she got a landslide of downloads,
as she expected. That moved her book way up to nearly number 1 in her
category. Huzzah! Her strategy here was to gain enough visibility while her
book was free to keep her sales up at the top of the category after her
book returned to full price. Sounds reasonable.

However, her book is now back to regular price, and her sales rankings are
ping-ponging all over. Not what she expected. More disturbing is the fact
that her "Customers Who Bought This Book Also Bought" section is now messed
up. Before she went into this promotional, the section contained her other
books. Her other books have vanished, and the section is flooded with a
bunch of unrelated books._

I put a short story, Gnome Wars, into Select, did some free days and I can tell you that this does happen. The story is a funny fantasy, but most of my also boughts right now are children's books, picture books, Christmas stories, animal books and one weight loss guide. Just FYI. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004RQ84R4


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Speaking with the vast experience of 2 "borrows," I see no change in general ranking-to-sales behavior, nor any change in customers who bought. But then, I haven't gone free yet. I think that Amazon itself is probably just getting used to this, and working on how to factor borrowing into rankings, etc.


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

I had_ Death Whispers_, my debut title, free for three months and was ready to change things up. I did a myriad of additional things when I opted into Select. I revamped my book cover with an alternate, changed categories for a better fit, and altered pricing to the popular .99 cent (first book in series). I have had _some_ lends, and continue to get them each day but at my price point, it's mainly sales. Book one had run its course and I wasn't receiving a huge sales volume from other sources so it seemed like an obvious next step. I have not opted in with any of my other titles and I will see how this pans out. So far, it has been great for me (given my promotional evolution). I definitely opted in with an experimental motivation. One thing I really like are the five free, promotional days Amazon allows within the three month program. That control alone made the decision simpler for me. (After having the unpredictable hassle of getting ones books free!)


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Jon Olson said:


> I'm surrendering to the omnipotent. *Waves white flag.* KDP Select, honey, here I come.


Me, too. I caved yesterday. My book went free today and I've gone from a ranking of 285K to 557. Yes, you read that right. A jump of over 200K and today isn't even finished yet plus I still have tomorrow. The best part is the download in ES. No BBOS in ES. It was worth it for that alone.

The only thing is, I'm not showing any category rankings. Don't know why.

How this is going to affect future sales, I don't know, but my sales have been practically nil. I had nothing to lose and the possibility of everything to gain.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

BarbraAnnino said:


> This is from a writer's group I belong to. Just something to watch for when you do put a Select book into the free pile.
> 
> _An author I know who's selling better than I am has put one of her books
> into the Kindle Select program. She's only had one person borrow the book,
> ...


This is pretty much what others on KB have said would happen. A book with little or no traction going in (>10-15K ranking) is not going to get many borrows unless there's something particularly appealing about it (maybe none). And coming out of going free definitely messes with your Also boughts. That should improve each time they recrunch Also Boughts. Ranking can take several days to stabilize as well.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

edwardgtalbot said:


> This is pretty much what others on KB have said would happen. A book with little or no traction going in (>10-15K ranking) is not going to get many borrows unless there's something particularly appealing about it (maybe none). And coming out of going free definitely messes with your Also boughts. That should improve each time they recrunch Also Boughts. Ranking can take several days to stabilize as well.


FWIW, I let two books go free via Select, both worse than 15K in the ranking at the time, and they've been borrowed 115 times since. They both got into the top 100 free though.

Went back to paid on the 11th and 13th of the month, and as of today also boughts are still mostly other books that happened to be free at the same time.


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## cidneyswanson (Feb 1, 2011)

Monique said:


>


This was worth getting out of bed for. (Although I wish I could see Warf a bit more clearly. . . )


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

modwitch said:


> Free downloads are counting the overall sort in the lending library, so freebies hit the top of the categories in the library when they go back to paid.


That's interesting. I was only in Select for a day before I put my book free, so there were no borrows. I'll see what happens in the next couple of days.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Free downloads are counting the overall sort in the lending library, so freebies hit the top of the categories in the library when they go back to paid.


Really? That's interesting.

I hit #22 on the free list today, and #1 in both free epic fantasy and free historical fantasy. Maybe that will give me a good boost in the Lending Library. I'll know more in the next few days.

David


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

David Wisehart said:


> Really? That's interesting.
> 
> I hit #22 on the free list today, and #1 in both free epic fantasy and free historical fantasy. Maybe that will give me a good boost in the Lending Library. I'll know more in the next few days.
> 
> David


I'm going to have to write to KDP. None of my categories are showing up.


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## Denise Grover Swank (Jul 4, 2011)

Do you have to have a Kindle to view the books in the lending library? I've have about 160 borrows on my contemporary fantasy, Chosen, and I wondered how it ranked in the library.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I was pretty positive a few days ago already - if you look at the sort order in the lending library, the top 10 books or so in any major category are seriously out of whack compared to their paid rankings. I started paying attention, and these were almost always books peeling off free. Also, people peeling off free are reporting increased borrows for a few days. I did one day free with my novella (ranked in the 6K sales rank range before it went free). This morning, 3 days after going free, it's suddenly #4 in the lending library in it's category (compared to #30 something before going free). And it's paid rank is a little better, but nothing enough to justify that kind of jump.


The sort order is... creative. I'll look to see if I jump in the lending ranks in a few days. Right now, I'm behing another of my books that has few sales and was free over a week ago.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Eric C said:


> FWIW, I let two books go free via Select, both worse than 15K in the ranking at the time, and they've been borrowed 115 times since. They both got into the top 100 free though.
> 
> Went back to paid on the 11th and 13th of the month, and as of today also boughts are still mostly other books that happened to be free at the same time.


Good point Eric. I would imagine that borrows of books with modest rankings would be minimal until/unless one goes free. Then, if Debora's observations are right, it looks like the free sales get you great visibility in the lending library.

I have a shorts collection that hasn't sold a copy on Amazon in months going free on 12/25 - I'll be interested to see if anything comes of it. My expectations are set massively low given the fact that it's just 20K words of shorts and has no traction at all. Any paid sales, borrows, or impact on paid sales of my other books (none of which are in Select) will be a positive.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm up to 73 borrows. Gave away 11,815 over three days. But there was a dramatic drop on orders on the third day. Day 1 & 2 were over 5,000 DL's each. I'd have to say in the future I'll only offer free for two days, and only on the first book in my series, (which is what I did this time). Paid books are double (even though I raised the price to 2.99) , 2nd book sales are at least 4X what they normally were and will most likely hit at least five times. I reached #14 in the Top 100 Kindle Store bestsellers list (free side). 

So for me, it was worth it. Book 3 is coming out soon, but I have an adult history mystery releasing soon too, so I may save my 2 free days for when both are out (I will just make my first in the series free again), but if the bump carries through, I want the max amount of books to take advantage of it.


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## cidneyswanson (Feb 1, 2011)

Lisa,
Good job! Great news.
Cidney


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

I had more than 9,800 free downloads over two days.

Today _Devil's Lair_ is full price again ($7.99) and I'm getting a lot more purchases and borrows than I had before the free promotion.

David


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Denise Grover Swank said:


> Do you have to have a Kindle to view the books in the lending library? I've have about 160 borrows on my contemporary fantasy, Chosen, and I wondered how it ranked in the library.


Right now it is ranked 95 overall in the library and 10 in fantasy.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

cidneyswanson said:


> Lisa,
> Good job! Great news.
> Cidney


Thank you Cidney 
I was happy with my results.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

I think I'm finally going to jump on this (with one book). This will be interesting considering the book is very new, has no reviews yet, and currently has no sales rank on Amazon.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

MGalloway said:


> I think I'm finally going to jump on this (with one book). This will be interesting considering the book is very new, has no reviews yet, and currently has no sales rank on Amazon.


I'll be in the same boat with the next one I put up.


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## jimdev7 (Jan 2, 2012)

Interesting concepts about the lending library and exposure. I did a one day free promo and had over 8,500 DL's. This ran me up to #32 in Kindle Top 100 Free, and of course #1's in breakdown categories.

Now that I'm two days out from the free day, I've maintained my #1 in the breakdown category on the PAID side. However, I have not seen the push on the rentals. I've only had 3 total borrows thus far.

Has anyone done any promo for the rental program? My genre may also not be the same as it is geared toward teens and YA and they may not be the "Prime" types.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Hi jimdev7--
Put you book & link in your sig. Sounds like your book is doing well. Have you been promoting it at all?


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## jimdev7 (Jan 2, 2012)

Hi Lisa,
I just joined kindle boards and I had to post before i could edit my sig or profile. I'm off to fix that now. 

I did the basic twitter promo, not much on facebook. I was really surprised by the response. thanks for asking, I'll fix up my signature now.

Okay, fixed signature, ready to roll. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


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## jimdev7 (Jan 2, 2012)

Another day, another update ... 

I've maintained my #1 ranking in my category for the third straight day. The paid sales continue, and now the borrows have kicked in more with a 12 borrows coming in since last night. I really need to learn more about how Prime does their thing. Guess its time to go sign up.


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## jimdev7 (Jan 2, 2012)

David Wisehart said:


> Really? That's interesting.
> 
> I hit #22 on the free list today, and #1 in both free epic fantasy and free historical fantasy. Maybe that will give me a good boost in the Lending Library. I'll know more in the next few days.
> 
> David


Hey David, which book did you hit #22 with? Curious with how it's doing today.


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