# They will never buy books priced over $4.99! Never!



## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Twice this week, I saw people online saying they would NEVER buy books priced over $4.99 because they thought it was absurd or crazy to pay that kind of money when there were millions of books available for free or .99 or $2.99. Seriously? $5.99 is a crazy price?

I must admit, that really bugged me. 

People go and sit through a 90 minute movie and pay twelve bucks for it. Add the popcorn and drink and you have almost $20.00. A good book can give you 4-8 hours of entertainment or more, depending on the length, and that's not worth over five bucks? Me personally, I have no problem paying six or eight or ten dollars for a good book. What about you?

I see the established authors with huge followings and email lists are charging $6.99 or $8.99 or $10.99 for a book.

Are there many indies selling at that price?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

There are indies selling their books anywhere between $0 and $9.99 but none over that as far as I know. The only reason $9.99 is the cap is the way royalties are calculated. I sell best at $4.99 and $7.99. I found these price points after a LONG year of testing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

You can also find people who say they will not buy books that at $.99 or $2.99 because they're clearly cheap for a reason, aka not any good. 

Don't worry about what people say; worry about what they do. Look at your genre and decide what's best for your book(s).


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

There are also people who will never spend over $50 for a pair of shoes (like me). Oddly, that doesn't seem to stop plenty of companies from making good money selling shoes for over $50. I also refuse to spend $5 for a cup of coffee. Starbucks seems unconcerned about that. And while I would never spend $50,000 for a car, Lexus and BMW seem to get along fine without my business.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> There are indies selling their books anywhere between $0 and $9.99 but none over that as far as I know. The only reason $9.99 is the cap is the way royalties are calculated. I sell best at $4.99 and $7.99. I found these price points after a LONG year of testing.


I think those are great price points. I would love to see more indies between $5.99 and $8.99.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Monique said:


> You can also find people who say they will not buy books that at $.99 or $2.99 because they're clearly cheap for a reason, aka not any good.
> 
> Don't worry about what people say; worry about what they do. Look at your genre and decide what's best for your book(s).


Well, I'm definitely not worried about it at all. Just thought it was interesting. What I'd really like to see is how many indies have books priced over $4.99.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Whoa your only paying 20 bucks for a movie? With snacks its like $50 here.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I would love to see more indies between $5.99 and $8.99.


When I was offering my anthology I priced it at 7.99--a cent more than what it would cost to buy the books in the series. It sold.

I took it down because I think it was draining sales from the other books, and because if I found a typo in one of the other books it was one more place to update...not to mention backmatter updates. (Ugh!)

I will eventually offer it again though. Maybe for Christmas, at a deal price.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I don't go to movies.  For the price of one movie for two with popcorn and drinks, I can get HBO and Showtime for a month.  You can probably throw in Starz too.
Like Julie I won't spend $5 on a cup of coffee either.  My limit on shoes is $20.
What I spend on books varies by author.  Some I wouldn't give you 99 cents for and others well let's just say I would sell my children.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

von19 said:


> Whoa your only paying 20 bucks for a movie? With snacks its like $50 here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


LOL. There's a great independent movie theater close to my home where I can buy a card with ten movies for only $60.00. Six bucks a movie! Killer deal and my wife and I never buy popcorn or drinks at the movies anyway. I was talking in general because many people do. But $50.00 for you? Does that movie come with a foot massage?


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Rich Amooi said:


> Twice this week, I saw people online saying they would NEVER buy books priced over $4.99 because they thought it was absurd or crazy to pay that kind of money when there were millions of books available for free or .99 or $2.99. Seriously? $5.99 is a crazy price?
> 
> I must admit, that really bugged me.
> 
> ...


I've been doing this self-pub thing for over two years now and I've finally learned to become a skeptic when reading most advice. Honestly, no one really knows what they're talking about when it comes to YOUR business. That's the good and bad thing about it. You'll need to decide which price is best for your book. I remember when people were saying that you can't sell indie ebooks for more than .99 or 2.99 but I sell my short novel for $4.95 and it's my bestseller. It's also one of my lowest rated books, so go figure.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> I don't go to movies. For the price of one movie for two with popcorn and drinks, I can get HBO and Showtime for a month. You can probably throw in Starz too.
> Like Julie I won't spend $5 on a cup of coffee either. My limit on shoes is $20.
> What I spend on books varies by author. Some I wouldn't give you 99 cents for and others well let's just say I would sell my children.


  LOL.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I don't go to movies. For the price of one movie for two with popcorn and drinks, I can get HBO and Showtime for a month. You can probably throw in Starz too.
> Like Julie I won't spend $5 on a cup of coffee either. My limit on shoes is $20.
> What I spend on books varies by author. Some I wouldn't give you 99 cents for and others well let's just say I would sell my children.


Well, carp! No one ever told me I could trade my kids for books! When they were teenagers this would have been a deal I'd have given serious consideration. 

I've got a trilogy out now at 5.99. It'll be interesting to see how that goes! Mostly in indie romance I'm seeing .99 (sometimes for 10 books in an anthology) to 2.99 as the main price points. Except for a couple of my books, I'm pretty much there. But I always read price discussions avidly.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There are also people who will never spend over $50 for a pair of shoes (like me).


I spend less on shoes now that I buy rugged, more comfortable shoes at $100 a pair than when I bought crappy stuff for twenty bucks. My shoes now will last years instead of months, and my feet are happier for it.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

When I first self-published back in late 2011, I deliberately priced my ebooks at $5.99 to try to scare away all but those who REALLY, REALLY wanted to read it. Worked great. I sold plenty of copies, and got nothing but good reviews, because nobody was bargain-shopping me. They were _committed_.

I'm certain I could still sell books at higher-than-average prices now, but I think I've found the right balance of volume and price at $4.99...for now. People certainly will pay a higher price for quality fiction, especially if it's in a rare niche that they can't find anywhere else. 

And anyway, anybody who says they'll never pay the price I want to charge for my books isn't my customer, anyway, so I'm not concerned with "losing" their business.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

And that movie? You only get to see it once for that price. Books are forever!


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I've been doing this self-pub thing for over two years now and I've finally learned to become a skeptic when reading most advice. Honestly, no one really knows what they're talking about when it comes to YOUR business. That's the good and bad thing about it. You'll need to decide which price is best for your book. I remember when people were saying that you can't sell indie ebooks for more than .99 or 2.99 but I sell my short novel for $4.95 and it's my bestseller. It's also one of my lowest rated books, so go figure.


Define "short" lol.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

I've always been a mass market reader and trad publishers started to lose me when mass market paper started to hit the 6.99 to 9.99 ranges. Once upon a time, I'd hit the bookstores every saturday and walk out with 2 or 3 books. Then in the late 90s, as prices crept up, I started to curate what I bought very strictly. Eventually I was reading only a handful of books a year. Granted, they were great books. PK Dick Award winners, Lamda Award winners. But still, it was only a handful.

One of the pleasures of the ebook revolution, as a reader, is the luxury to buy books that are just good solid reads where I don't feel like I'm making some kind of investment when I buy.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Then they're not your target audience. It's really that simple. 

My one full-length novel hit the shelves at $6.99, then I reduced it to $5.99, where it will remain. It sells. What also sells are my erotica collections (a mere 12 - 25k words) for $4.99. 

The people who want your work will pay for it. Those who don't, won't. And if you're not going to yield on price to accommodate them then they're not your concern. That's the way I look at it.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

von19 said:


> Define "short" lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


168 pages. I guess short is relative, but my point is that each person needs to decide what's best for their business. You can't please everyone. And you don't need to please everyone, just some of the people.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I spend less on shoes now that I buy rugged, more comfortable shoes at $100 a pair than when I bought crappy stuff for twenty bucks. My shoes now will last years instead of months, and my feet are happier for it.


I'm the same way. Used to buy the cheap shoes that ended up not lasting so long and hurt my feet. Now I buy the better shoes, but I wait until they go on sale.

I'm still bumming over the Timberland store closing at the outlet mall near us. I've had these babies (Retail $120, bought for $35) for almost two years now:


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> And that movie? You only get to see it once for that price. Books are forever!


Exactly. And that cup of coffee that cost as much if not more than many ebooks? How long did that last?


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## Ruth Ann Nordin (Sep 24, 2010)

If you're happy with the amount of sales you get at $4.99 or higher, then stay where you're at.  

You can't change someone else's mind, no matter what you do. In the end, readers will buy what they want at the price they want.  

I wouldn't sweat it.  Just keep doing what works for you.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm afraid I dont pay that for books - UNLESS I've read something else by the author and know I will love it.  The people out there are right, there are thousands and thousands of fantastic indi books to be found for much less.  I get through about 5 books a week, generally in my writing genre which is teen romance. They are short and not 'literary' I guess, but the avarage price does seem to be around 2.99, which I'm happy to pay.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Some I wouldn't give you 99 cents for and others well let's just say I would sell my children.


Wait, you can sell your children?

I have two free short stories. Third short story is 2.99. First novel, 3.99. Second novel, 4.99. Latest novel, 5.99.

I figure, those who enjoyed the first and the second novel, know that my third novel is worth the 5.99. Hell, it would probably be worth 7.99, but I don't want to make the gap too big.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> Then they're not your target audience. It's really that simple.
> 
> My one full-length novel hit the shelves at $6.99, then I reduced it to $5.99, where it will remain. It sells. What also sells are my erotica collections (a mere 12 - 25k words) for $4.99.
> 
> The people who want your work will pay for it. Those who don't, won't. And if you're not going to yield on price to accommodate them then they're not your concern. That's the way I look at it.


I think that's awesome you're able to sell your 12-25k's for $4.99. The erotica novels are in demand, though, so I'm not sure you can get that kind of money in contemporary romance or mystery/thrillers for something so short. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm certainly going to test the waters when I publish in July, but my initial thoughts were to put my debut novel at $5.99. It's a romantic comedy. Maybe follow it up with a novella at $3.99. We'll see. It's not something I stress over and the beauty is, I can always change it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I am always a bit amused when comparisons of books and movies come up. And popcorn and who knows what else. A book is a book, a movie is a movie and a coffee is a coffee. They are not interchangeable. If I watch a movie, I want to watch a movie. Its a different kind of entertainment and I enter it with very different needs and wants. I also don't go to the movie theater, the last movie I saw in one was "Serenity". So its been a few years.  . But I rent movies from my Roku on occation, have premium programming I pay for. None of that has anything to do with books though. 

Everyone is different. Some pay this, some pay that, others of us pay everything in between. Its rarely a either or. Just because I pick up a freebie today, doesn't mean I won't buy a book for 6.99 tomorrow by a favorite author. We all have different levels of what we are willing to pay and it also very much depends on genre. I can go and buy brand new published stuff in the genres I read for 2.99-6.99. That is what the prices are now for newly released stuff. And those prices are all publishers by the way. Everything from Random House to HarperCollins to Carina Press. Since this thread is comparing self published prices to that. Amazon's own publishing houses like Montlake price their new releases at 3.99-4.99. I read a lot of romance by the way, not just, but a lot. 
I have no clue how self published authors in those same genres would fit in at 6.99 and above. *shrugs
If one is a voracious reader, you start snapping up sales. 
You probably don't want to know my average book price I paid in 2013.  

If someone reads 5 books a year and they only read litfic, memoirs, non fiction, then the average price will probably be higher of those books. If someone reads 150 or more books a year, then you start hunting down sales in between the must-have-right-now authors we all have on our lists. 

And I have only ever stepped foot into Starbucks once in my life so I have no clue what their coffee costs. I already feel like I am paying a lot when I brew a cup here and there with my Tassimo.  . Now tea on the other hand, I can go a little over the top. Some have seen my not so secret tea cabinet, or should I say DVD rack.  . 

So as far as 6.99 or even 10.99 priced books? I wouldn't pay 10.99 for a complete unknown author, heck I wouldn't even pay that for a series I follow. I think 9.99 was the most I paid for such series I was hooked on. Those are rare. Established author, trustworthy publisher and all that yadda yadda. I don't really see a lot of books for that range the 10.99 in the genres I read anyway. I saw a few before the agency stuff went away, but even them most new releases by the big guys topped out at 7.99. And guess when I started buying books by the boatload again.  

I guess its really simple, put your books out what you think you want to charge and then see if a lot of folks buy them or not. Those of us readers that don't want to pay that, move on to one of the other gazillion authors and books out there. There is no lack of good books and authors, thankfully. 

Someone just hooked me on a urban fantasy series I am reading and I am ecstatic that the books are around $3. I even got the first one on sale for 99 cents. Get me hooked and now I am plowing through that series. They are on the shorter side though, so I guess that price is good for that. They are around 200 pages which is on the very short side for a book for me.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Just because I pick up a freebie today, doesn't mean I won't buy a book for 6.99 tomorrow by a favorite author.


This is a great point...same for me. In fact, I'd never even heard of bookbub before last year. Now, I subscribe to it and have been snatching up some deals. I think I got four this week for .99 or free!


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Rich Amooi said:


> Twice this week, I saw people online saying they would NEVER buy books priced over $4.99


I'm trying not to be rude about "the places you look at online". Let's just say they're not very respresentative of book buyers?

Those people are not my customers.



Rich Amooi said:


> Are there many indies selling at that price?


So far I have only one self-published book, which I've priced at $6.99 (it's about 85,000 words).

I intend to make future ones $7.99 or $8.99 (and probably to increase the price of the already-published one, too).


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

zoe tate said:


> I'm trying not to be rude about "the places you look at online". Let's just say they're not very respresentative of book buyers?
> 
> Those people are not my customers.


They were on Goodreads.


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## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Given that I've tried selling books at various prices (0.99, 1.99, 2.99, 4.99) and have difficulty selling anything that isn't free, I don't really know what to say there. I've sold enough at 2.99 and 4.99 to know that there's a market. I've spent as much as 8.99 for a book, though it wasn't an indie author.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> I don't go to movies. For the price of one movie for two with popcorn and drinks, I can get HBO and Showtime for a month. You can probably throw in Starz too.
> Like Julie I won't spend $5 on a cup of coffee either. My limit on shoes is $20.
> What I spend on books varies by author. Some I wouldn't give you 99 cents for and others well let's just say I would sell my children.


If I sent my wife to visit you, could you teach her how to do that? She considers herself frugal if she goes shopping with our daughters and spends less than three or four hundred on shoes.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> If I sent my wife to visit you, could you teach her how to do that? She considers herself frugal if she goes shopping with our daughters and spends less than three or four hundred on shoes.


What is my cut if I teach your wife to do this?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Rich Amooi said:


> They were on Goodreads.


Goodreads has everything from the freebie queen to the I will only buy a book if it is rare, expensive, etc.
Not a good representation of how readers shop or a very good representation because everyone is different.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

JimJohnson said:


> Exactly. And that cup of coffee that cost as much if not more than many ebooks? How long did that last?


For me it will last as long as I dont leave the shop.  I have their gold card. but I will pay more then 4.99 for a book and have in the past but I honestly need to have it first. LOL If its a choice of 4 books for .99 or one book for 4.99 and I dont have the money for more coming for a bit I will take the 4 because it will last me longer. That is just my 2 cents..


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

My bestselling book (well, omnibus) is priced at $9.99 on Amazon. I guess if there are people who'll never pay more that $4.99 for a book, then they're the ones buying it piecemeal below that (and paying more in the long run). *shrugs* 

You can't worry about people who make bold absolute claims. You can't argue with them. People say they'll never read something written in 1st person. Or 3rd person. Or present tense. Okay, but others will. My books aren't for everyone. I accept that.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> You probably don't want to know my average book price I paid in 2013.


I read a lot of non-fiction. I might have your average price outdone!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I read a lot of non-fiction. I might have your average price outdone!


I have a feeling you outdo me in a lot of things.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

I just shelled out the $9.99 for The Martian. Obviously, it has a crazy amount of WOM. Normally I would NEVER pay that much for an e-book from an unknown. Before that the last BigPub book I bought was Dr. Sleep. And it was on sale.

So, you need to have an insane amount of WOM or your name has to be King (among s few others) to get me to shell out for BPH e-book pricing.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

What Kings Ate & Wizards Drank is $7.99 for the ebook. Frankly, I think that's a steal. The ebook has all of the artwork that the print has. It has all of the sidebar material (just inserted differently). There aren't many historical books in that price range. I've had several reactions to the price, including:


"one click" comments
"I never buy books over $X, so I guess I'll go without
"I can't afford that, can I get a review copy?"
"This book was so good for such a cheap history book"
"I don't trust cheap history books

I can go on. Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes will also be priced at $7.99. I suspect I'll get all of the same comments. That's okay. The people who purchase it are the people who really want to read it. Now, if only I could figure out how to get the people who NEED to read it to read it...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I have a feeling you outdo me in a lot of things.


Only in things that don't matter, my dear. Only in those things


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I can go on. Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes will also be priced at $7.99. I suspect I'll get all of the same comments. That's okay. The people who purchase it are the people who really want to read it. Now, if only I could figure out how to get the people who NEED to read it to read it...


Ooh ooh! What's Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes about? Another non-fiction helper for writers? I love my What Kings Ate... paperback.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

SM Reine said:


> It can be done. You better have a pretty amazing book for an audience that wants it, though.


I got away with it by having a good cover and a sexy ebook layout!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JimJohnson said:


> Ooh ooh! What's Hustlers, Harlots, and Heroes about? Another non-fiction helper for writers? I love my What Kings Ate... paperback.


I'm glad you like the paperback. Isn't the matte cover gorgeous with that artwork? I love it.

There is a bazaar link here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,168701.msg2413757.html#msg2413757 plus just a bunch of us talking about the book here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,181098.msg2549570.html#msg2549570

Basically, this one will be about London circa 1730-1890. And it's about the poor people and middling classes, as opposed to the rich. My favourite part of the book will be when people hit the "Knocker Upper" section


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Nice! Not quite my time period or genres, but I appreciate the head's up. I know a couple writers who will fall all over themselves for it, so I'll send them the particulars.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Rich Amooi said:


> They were on Goodreads.


ROFLMAO. That sounds pretty representative of book buyers to me!


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

I just spent $15.99 on a book this past month. 

As for self-published books, I don't think I've ever paid more $4.99 but that's happenstance not deliberate. I don't see many SP I want to read priced above $4.99.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

I just uploaded the paperback version of my latest book to Createspace. The minimum I was allowed to charge for it was $10.29. I had been thinking around $5 to $6. $10.29 is a huge leap from the $2.99 I charge for the e-book.  I'm guessing it was the fairly large number of illustrations that warranted the much higher price than my previous books on Createspace.


Philip


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I spend $100 for a lift ticket to ski for six hours. Add in the rest of what I spend, and it easily comes to $200. I don't spend $200 for a book.  That is because I value an hour of skiing more  than i value an hour of reading.

I also pay $20 for movies, and don't pay $20 for fiction. That is because I value the movie hour more than I value the hour if reading.

Comparisons based on hours of entertainment presume all entertainment hours are fungible. That doesn't fit what we can observe about consumers. 

I figure my own work is worth zero. Then i try to push price up from therre. Coffee, movies, and skiing dont figure into my book pricing.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I have my series books at $4.99 each. I recently put up a box set of 3 books at $9.99 (which is a $5 saving). I feel bad that more people aren't buying the box set, yet are buying each book individually. I put a link to the box set in the first line of blurb on book #1 and book #2, so they can't miss it.
I guess it's all a learning thing - and prices and things will work differently for each book and genre.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Rich Amooi said:


> Well, I'm definitely not worried about it at all. Just thought it was interesting. What I'd really like to see is how many indies have books priced over $4.99.


My backlist books and the series I started as a trade published author are priced at $4.99. But my straight indie series is priced at $5.99/book except for the first book in the series, that I use as a loss leader.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

swolf said:


> I'm the same way. Used to buy the cheap shoes that ended up not lasting so long and hurt my feet. Now I buy the better shoes, but I wait until they go on sale.
> 
> I'm still bumming over the Timberland store closing at the outlet mall near us. I've had these babies (Retail $120, bought for $35) for almost two years now:


Quality shoes and purses last forever. I've had foot surgery. I'd wear clothes from a thrift shop before I put cheap shoes on my feet.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

von19 said:


> Whoa your only paying 20 bucks for a movie? With snacks its like $50 here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


The local movie theater here is $4, $6 for a 3D ticket. Soda, Hot Dogs and Popcorn are only $1... And it's a first run theater. I know I'm lucky


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm gonna tell the truth here: I won't pay more than $5 for any digital content. You know why? Because it's digital.

It's a file on my computer and on the cloud that has no material overhead and that distributors like Amazon have proven time and again I can lose at any minute because I don't 'own' anything, just a license to read/watch/listen to it. Even barring that abusive practice, if my system dies, I'm out that money.

There's a lot bigger risk for me in getting digital movies, music and yes, books than the physical equivalent, so I'm not willing to offer up anywhere near as much money as I would for something I would own.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

And, see, I don't mind paying for digital because it's not physical. I don't want it in my house. I don't want it in one of the many boxes in the basement. I don't want to see it. I don't want it being peed on,  puked on, and dusted on (I have a lot of animals).

I also am happy to pay a premium for shopping in my underwear at 2am when I can't sleep and have instant delivery. The Steam model for books = my nirvana


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

I ONLY purchase digital movies and tv shows. If I can get it in digital, I will. Price always depends on how badly I want the item. Convenience is really important to me.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> I'm gonna tell the truth here: I won't pay more than $5 for any digital content. You know why? Because it's digital.
> 
> It's a file on my computer and on the cloud that has no material overhead and that distributors like Amazon have proven time and again I can lose at any minute because I don't 'own' anything, just a license to read/watch/listen to it. Even barring that abusive practice, if my system dies, I'm out that money.
> 
> There's a lot bigger risk for me in getting digital movies, music and yes, books than the physical equivalent, so I'm not willing to offer up anywhere near as much money as I would for something I would own.


Just back up your files... jeez...

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

K.B. Nelson said:


> The local movie theater here is $4, $6 for a 3D ticket. Soda, Hot Dogs and Popcorn are only $1... And it's a first run theater. I know I'm lucky


I think I need to move there lol. Just for a ticket its $20 and snacks are around $10. You can reduce the price if you get a small but only by about half. I think I need to bring this up with the mayor.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

romanceauthor said:


> I ONLY purchase digital movies and tv shows. If I can get it in digital, I will. Price always depends on how badly I want the item. Convenience is really important to me.


^^ that

I'm in Canada, so it's even harder to get things. If I can get a digital copy, I'll be scrambling to pick that up instead of trying to ship things in (and then dealing with duty and customs).


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

These type of threads would work so much better if authors who are advocating for one price point/strategy over another would also offer up sales numbers. How many are you selling at $4.99, that you're so insistent on staying there? How many are you selling at $2.99, that you think it's the right spot?

Just sayin'. Without actual numbers, it's kind of pointless to argue back and forth about price points, don't you think?


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> I spend less on shoes now that I buy rugged, more comfortable shoes at $100 a pair than when I bought crappy stuff for twenty bucks. My shoes now will last years instead of months, and my feet are happier for it.


^This. Not only are my feet happy with better shoes, but my back is, too.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There are also people who will never spend over $50 for a pair of shoes (like me). Oddly, that doesn't seem to stop plenty of companies from making good money selling shoes for over $50. I also refuse to spend $5 for a cup of coffee. Starbucks seems unconcerned about that. And while I would never spend $50,000 for a car, Lexus and BMW seem to get along fine without my business.


Sorry my rant off of the OPs main rant... Starbucks doesn't charge $5 for a cup of coffee (I see that example bandied about a lot online and offline). All I order is black coffee from Starbucks and it's $1.95 for a medium and that's in San Francisco where everything is more expensive. It's the fancy carmel latte skinny cinnamon blah blah blah that costs five bucks plus, not a cup of coffee. And I'm usually stuck waiting in line in front of those peeps for my no frills coffee.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

jackcrows said:


> These type of threads would work so much better if authors who are advocating for one price point/strategy over another would also offer up sales numbers. How many are you selling at $4.99, that you're so insistent on staying there? How many are you selling at $2.99, that you think it's the right spot?
> 
> Just sayin'. Without actual numbers, it's kind of pointless to argue back and forth about price points, don't you think?


I think it's probably pointless anyway, as different genres and books will do well at different price points. Joe Nobody sells at a high price point, but could the next indie author copy that price point and do as well? Most probably, the answer is no. It's fairly easy to see ballpark sales figures from rankings. Myself, I'm not insistent upon staying at $4.99 - it just seems fair. Though I could change my mind at any time and go up or down.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

jackcrows said:


> These type of threads would work so much better if authors who are advocating for one price point/strategy over another would also offer up sales numbers. How many are you selling at $4.99, that you're so insistent on staying there? How many are you selling at $2.99, that you think it's the right spot?
> 
> Just sayin'. Without actual numbers, it's kind of pointless to argue back and forth about price points, don't you think?


People here don't give numbers much anymore. It comes with too much grief. Look at the books' ranking. That should give you an idea how well they're selling. But does it really matter? I write a series similar to Janet Evanovich, but looking at her book sales won't give me any idea of how I should price my books.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Sorry my rant off of the OPs main rant... Starbucks doesn't charge $5 for a cup of coffee (I see that example bandied about a lot online and offline). All I order is black coffee from Starbucks and it's $1.95 for a medium and that's in San Francisco where everything is more expensive. It's the fancy carmel latte skinny cinnamon blah blah blah that costs five bucks plus, not a cup of coffee. And I'm usually stuck waiting in line in front of those peeps for my no frills coffee.


Well, I wasn't the one who talked about Starbucks, but I get your point. I rarely spend over three bucks there. And there's nothing wrong going with a no frills coffee either. I have a no frills coffee every morning at home. I wouldn't mind one right now!


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Just quickly -- is there a thread that deals with optimal pricing for various genres? I can't seem to get anything from the search function except for threads from 2010 for some reason. I have a 96k fantasy-adventure book coming out and I'm trying to figure out whether to go 2.99, 3.99, or 4.99


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I sell between 4,000 and 6,000 books a month at $9.99. All of my titles but one are at or above $9.00.

I know, I know... I've been told a million times I'm weird.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

von19 said:


> Just back up your files... jeez...


That doesn't actually fix the problem. As operating systems change and formats are tweaked or dropped, even archive files stop being viable. I'm a person who is adept with computers and I've still been locked out of files that just won't work on a modern computer. I have a stack of Roxio burned CD-RWs full of stuff from college that are coasters now because the program that runs them never got patched after the move to 64-bit computing. In six years when we move to 128 bit computing, I'm sure a ton of my thumb drives are going to get screwed.

And the Cloud? Aaaahahahahahaha! Oh mercy, I'm shocked that anyone who knows anything about computers trusts the cloud further than they can throw it. Security problems plus the threat of one bankruptcy resulting in your back-ups going to digi-heaven.

I make plenty of back-ups, but that doesn't change the fact that a DVD or a print books is inherently more stable than a file, at least until we move beyond 'proprietary' file type BS and walled garden content distro.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

jackcrows said:


> These type of threads would work so much better if authors who are advocating for one price point/strategy over another would also offer up sales numbers. How many are you selling at $4.99, that you're so insistent on staying there? How many are you selling at $2.99, that you think it's the right spot?
> 
> Just sayin'. Without actual numbers, it's kind of pointless to argue back and forth about price points, don't you think?


Yes! I just came back from Googling $.99 short stories with very little luck. I've noticed that its almost impossible to find real sales figures. Why is everyone so scared of posting them, Jesus Christ it drives me up a wall. What little info I can find is always about erotica so its pretty useless. This is madness! Madness!

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Rich Amooi said:


> Twice this week, I saw people online saying they would NEVER buy books priced over $4.99 because they thought it was absurd or crazy to pay that kind of money when there were millions of books available for free or .99 or $2.99. Seriously? $5.99 is a crazy price?
> 
> I must admit, that really bugged me.
> 
> ...


When I release my full-length titles, I will definitely be in the $3.99-$5.99 range. You bring up a valid point, and it's scary for the future of Indies. People are getting so used to having FREE this and FREE that or CHEAP this and CHEAP that. I can't completely blame them; the system is detrimental unto itself.

Look at movies (as you said): it costs $50 bucks to go a date. Minimum. People gladly pay it, but that number is shrinking. You can wait 4-6 months and Redbox the movie for $0.99 (DVD) and $1.50 (Blu-ray), take it home, have your ENTIRE family watch it. This business model is the problem with the USA right now. We don't have a lot of money, and all of these "bargain businesses" are booming, while the "regulars" are hurting.

I have no doubt that there will always be great authors out there, selling their work for a buck, just to get the validation that people will download their title. It's scary. It's VERY scary, when you think about the future of self-publishing. You hardly ever see any Indies on the bestseller lists with price-points matching the legacy-published authors (e.g. $0.99 for Indie author and $7.99 for King). At the same time, Indies are okay making 20k a year, while King has a factory to run, and can wipe his a$$ with 20k.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

von19 said:


> Yes! I just came back from Googling $.99 short stories with very little luck. I've noticed that its almost impossible to find real sales figures. Why is everyone so scared of posting them, Jesus Christ it drives me up a wall. What little info I can find is always about erotica so its pretty useless. This is madness! Madness!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


There tend to be drive-by 1 star reviews every time anyone posts real numbers (so long as they are GOOD numbers). That's why it doesn't happen anymore.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I sell between 4,000 and 6,000 books at month at $9.99. All of my titles but one are at or above $9.00.
> 
> I know, I know... I've been told a million times I'm weird.


Are you serious? Those numbers are INSANE! You make more (in one month) than I do in a year.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Patrick Szabo said:


> There tend to be drive-by 1 star reviews every time anyone posts real numbers (so long as they are GOOD numbers). That's why it doesn't happen anymore.


Really?

I mean, it doesn't really surprise me. I wrote a thread on here that I'm still paying for today. I'd like to think that a lot of people here are genuine, and good-hearted.


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## Adrian Howell (Feb 24, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I sell between 4,000 and 6,000 books at month at $9.99. All of my titles but one are at or above $9.00.
> 
> I know, I know... I've been told a million times I'm weird.


Joe, you're weird.

If only we could all be as weird...


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> That doesn't actually fix the problem. As operating systems change and formats are tweaked or dropped, even archive files stop being viable. I'm a person who is adept with computers and I've still been locked out of files that just won't work on a modern computer. I have a stack of Roxio burned CD-RWs full of stuff from college that are coasters now because the program that runs them never got patched after the move to 64-bit computing. In six years when we move to 128 bit computing, I'm sure a ton of my thumb drives are going to get screwed.
> 
> And the Cloud? Aaaahahahahahaha! Oh mercy, I'm shocked that anyone who knows anything about computers trusts the cloud further than they can throw it. Security problems plus the threat of one bankruptcy resulting in your back-ups going to digi-heaven.
> 
> I make plenty of back-ups, but that doesn't change the fact that a DVD or a print books is inherently more stable than a file, at least until we move beyond 'proprietary' file type BS and walled garden content distro.


<--- Comp Sci Student

You can convert your older file formats to newer ones.

Encryption can help with security. 
Or you could transfer the data to a physical medium.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Oh hey guys and dolls.
I picked up Dan Brown respectively for free (Da Vinci Code) and 1.99 (Inferno).  I also pick up Harlequin books free at least once a month on Amazon.
John Grisham's latest dropped to $3.24 for an ebook.
So yea trads drop their prices too.
Veronica Roth was 4.99 today.  
Note I didn't pick up Grisham or Roth.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Patrick Szabo said:


> There tend to be drive-by 1 star reviews every time anyone posts real numbers (so long as they are GOOD numbers). That's why it doesn't happen anymore.


Wow, really? I'm new here but from a lot of post I've seen I get the feeling kboards past is... troubled...

But really, what type of person does that to someone trying to help them? I guess I'll just have to fall face first into this and see what happens. Whatever happens I'll come back and report.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

GaryCecil said:


> Are you serious? Those numbers are INSANE! You make more (in one month) than I do in a year.


But I have 13 titles. My best seller right now does about 75 ebooks per day (all outlets). The rest between 5-15 each. When you have a bunch of titles, it all adds up. Even after this latest 40-day old release dies down, if you average 10 ebooks per day, per title, you end up with 4,000 a month, so it's no big deal. Throw in a few thousand paperbacks per month and a 1000 audio books or so... it keeps me off the streets. On a good month, I'll sell 10-11K copies total.

I always held out hope for a runaway, breakout novel... but those visions have faded. Grind. Grind. Grind.

(I'm sure I'll be blessed with a few 1-star hits from this post, but I'm retiring, so I don't really care. Fire away!)


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

von19 said:


> <--- Comp Sci Student
> 
> You can convert your older file formats to newer ones.
> 
> ...


1) Not if it's a proprietary format you won't. That was my mistake with Roxio. Nothing even detects there's real data on those discs.

2) Encryption prevents theft, not destruction or disruption of the server that prevents access to the files.

3) If I'm going to make a DVD anyway, why not buy one in the first place? Unless the digital price is lower to reflect this?


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

After experimenting all over the place, I've settled at $4.99 for my full length novels. Anything above that and they die.

But here's what perplexes me about Amazon. I released a short nonfiction book the other day, priced at $2.99. Today it ranks at 135,212 in overall Amazon ebook sales, and at #41 and 42 among the top 100 in two genre categories. Well, I thought, not bad after 48 hours. They must be flying off the shelves. But when I check in at KDP, all of two books have sold. Now, is it that easy to rise in Amazon rankings with a mere two sales, or could it be true sales data hasn't kicked in yet? Very confusing.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

James Bruno said:


> After experimenting all over the place, I've settled at $4.99 for my full length novels. Anything above that and they die.
> 
> But here's what perplexes me about Amazon. I released a short nonfiction book the other day, priced at $2.99. Today it ranks at 135,212 in overall Amazon ebook sales, and at #41 and 42 among the top 100 in two genre categories. Well, I thought, not bad after 48 hours. They must be flying off the shelves. But when I check in at KDP, all of two books have sold. Now, is it that easy to rise in Amazon rankings with a mere two sales, or could it be true sales data hasn't kicked in yet? Very confusing.


James - as I'm sure you know, you can't figure any of this out. I released an experiment (for me) six months ago. I priced a full-length novel at $5.99. The first JN novel ever offered at such a low price. It didn't do well. Matter of fact, sales sucked. So I waited four months and it never took off. I raised the price to my typical $9.99, and the average sales per day actually increased. Huh? What?

Another of my slower sellers was recently included in a box set. 11 books for .99. The sales of my stand-alone title ($9.99) actually increased. I'm not kidding... they increased! Now why would anyone pay $9.99 when they can get the exact same book, plus 10 more, for .99? None of this makes any sense.


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## RJ Kennett (Jul 31, 2013)

von19 said:


> Whoa your only paying 20 bucks for a movie? With snacks its like $50 here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


When I lived in Castle Rock, Colorado, the theater there had matinee's for $5. I miss that town. Now that I'm in Houston a matinee is almost twice that.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

jackcrows said:


> These type of threads would work so much better if authors who are advocating for one price point/strategy over another would also offer up sales numbers. How many are you selling at $4.99, that you're so insistent on staying there? How many are you selling at $2.99, that you think it's the right spot?
> 
> Just sayin'. Without actual numbers, it's kind of pointless to argue back and forth about price points, don't you think?


I know where you're coming from but numbers like you want are pointless unless your books are in my genre and are the same as mine.

If I say I am selling 2000 units a month, you say "WTF man, that's crap!" because you might be a romance author selling 30,000 a month and that's in a bad month! But if I say I am selling 2000 units and the book is a "How to weed your garden" book, you might say "Man, such a tiny niche, that's awesome!"

This is why I said at $4.99 I am writing full time, and that I have experimented with price. If 4.99 were not MY sweet spot, do you think I would still be using it? Of course not. I am one of Hugh's "making a living in the middle" people. I am not selling thousands of one book. I am selling them spread over 10. If I can sell 10 a day of each or most of my books, I can keep going. That's all I want at this stage. DO I want to do better? Hell yes! But I figure the more books I get out over the next couple of years the more likely that is.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

StevenCampbell said:


> My novel started as 5.95 and it was by far the most successful at that price point. I tried shifting it all over the place to see what data I could gather.
> 
> I came up with the following formula:
> 
> ...


Actually that formula is applicable. The answer is 0...so you should be on permafree


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

I've put a good bit of thought into, I guess, how I feel ethically about pricing. Now, this obviously doesn't mean anyone else should feel the same as I do on this, but to me a $4.99 price is reasonable. I'm not saying I wouldn't price above it, but 5 bucks for a 250-300 page book makes me feel like I'm giving value for value. So, in short, I'm okay with that comment.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> That doesn't actually fix the problem. As operating systems change and formats are tweaked or dropped, even archive files stop being viable. I'm a person who is adept with computers and I've still been locked out of files that just won't work on a modern computer. I have a stack of Roxio burned CD-RWs full of stuff from college that are coasters now because the program that runs them never got patched after the move to 64-bit computing. In six years when we move to 128 bit computing, I'm sure a ton of my thumb drives are going to get screwed.
> 
> And the Cloud? Aaaahahahahahaha! Oh mercy, I'm shocked that anyone who knows anything about computers trusts the cloud further than they can throw it. Security problems plus the threat of one bankruptcy resulting in your back-ups going to digi-heaven.
> 
> I make plenty of back-ups, but that doesn't change the fact that a DVD or a print books is inherently more stable than a file, at least until we move beyond 'proprietary' file type BS and walled garden content distro.


You brought up an issue about cloud storage that is troubling to me too. It's not only a BK on the part of the cloud storage company that could eliminate all your files. If you the consumer have some financial problem, that can result in the destruction of all your files too. Suppose you used a credit card with automatic payments to pay the cloud storage company. Then you get laid off from your job, run short of money, start being late on your cc payments, and the cc company declines the next charge that comes in from the cloud storage company. Poof, they drop your account and your files are all gone. Or you have so many medical bills that you end up having to file BK and all your credit cards are canceled. You lose everything when your account goes unpaid. Or suppose it's something less drastic, like your cc expired and you forgot to update it with the cloud company. How do you get all your files back if the cloud company ever cancels your account, for whatever reason? Do they hold those files for a certain period of time after nonpayment, or is it all gone forever if you miss one payment?

I know there is free cloud storage available from some sources, but they have limits on the amount of data they will store free and above that you have to pay annually. If you have a large amount of data, your cloud storage is not going to be free. The uncertainty about what would happen if you ever have a financial hardship makes me want to use methods of offline storage. Maybe we should have redundancy: store everything both in the cloud and offline.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Rich Amooi said:


> Twice this week, I saw people online saying they would NEVER buy books priced over $4.99 because they thought it was absurd or crazy to pay that kind of money when there were millions of books available for free or .99 or $2.99. Seriously? $5.99 is a crazy price?


Rich,

You'll find, in certain corners of the 'net, people who'll openly admit they'll never pay at ALL for eBooks; they only want trad-pubbed best-sellers stolen off .torrent sites.

So, I wouldn't sweat those types much.

Heck, wanna hear crazy? At my faith-community, I once sat down with a fellow attendee who I'm not sure knew I was an author, and he started going on about how much he loves eBooks.

Promising start, right?

He talked about he'd pay for fiction by Stephen King and even supported indies and such, "as long as it's all worldly stuff."

That caught my ear, so I asked him what he meant. Hoo-boy!

"Well," he told me, "I'll pay worldly sums for the work of worldly authors. Render under Caesar and all that. But when it comes to anything faith-based, whether it's a Bible, a Torah, Christian fiction, Jewish fiction, inspirational, anything like that... if it's spiritual, and the authors believe in God, then they should offer it all for free and I'll pray they get rewarded in heaven."

*boggle* Right?

I said, "Wait a second. You're religious and you'll pay for worldly stuff, but not for faith-based books or books by faith-based writers?"

"Not just writers," he told me. "Music, too. I don't pay money for anything spiritual."

"Is it because you think they don't work as hard? Don't have bills to pay, family to provide for? They're not as skilled as other writers?"

"Nothing like that," he said. "I'm actually paying them better by praying for them to be more blessed in heaven than on earth. God gave them their talent, so they should just trust Him to provide for their needs in this world. I don't expect non-religious writers to understand any of that, so that's why I pay for their stuff. But religious writers should understand. I'm doing them a favor."

Oh, yes, there are many things wrong with his mentality, but I just decided to tune out around that point and let him drone on, because he was proving to me that trying to argue with him was pointless.

And he was indeed very much serious.  

P.S. I strongly suspect this is a "spiritualized" version of the old, "Give me something for free, it'll be GREAT publicity for you" argument.


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## Mike Essex (Mar 9, 2014)

I sell one of my indie  books at $9.99 and it actually sells the same amount of copies it sold at $0.99 (around 50 a month). I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it sell at the price. However it is non-fiction so it's possible people just see the price as indicating it's higher value.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Oh man, I don't know whether to be severely impressed or upset I didn't think of this. But I'm leaning towards the former lol.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Bluebonnet said:


> You brought up an issue about cloud storage that is troubling to me too ... It's not only a BK on the part of the cloud storage company that could eliminate all your files. If you the consumer have some financial problem, that can result in the destruction of all your files too. Suppose you used a credit card with automatic payments to pay the cloud storage company. Then you get laid off from your job, run short of money, start being late on your cc payments, and the cc company declines the next charge that comes in from the cloud storage company. Poof, they drop your account and your files are all gone. Or you have so many medical bills that you end up having to file BK and all your credit cards are canceled. You lose everything when your account goes unpaid. Or suppose it's something less drastic, like your cc expired and you forgot to update it with the cloud company. How do you get all your files back if the cloud company ever cancels your account, for whatever reason? Do they hold those files for a certain period of time after nonpayment, or is it all gone forever if you miss one payment?


Wow, I just... wow.

Do you actually understand cloud storage and sites?

I'm not trying to be rude, but everything you just wrote is... somewhat misinformed.

My very first encounter with "cloud storage" was when I first began a membership at Audible.com, many years ago (around 2001). This was before Cloud storage was even called Cloud storage, so far as I know.

What Audible.com promised me is that any audio books I bought would ALWAYS be available to me, even if a book I bought was pulled from their virtual shelves later on, even if I was no longer an active subscriber.

"Your purchases are your purchases, always" was their selling point.

Mildly skeptical, but I decided to try it out.

Over the course of about three or four years, I had a monthly subscription, and sometimes I bought extra things, and, well... I amassed a library of audio book purchases that amounted to around 150 titles.

I was working a journalism job at that point in my life, and boom, it was a way to keep reading when a lot of my life was spent driving from one story to another.

I got into a budget crunch or two and sacrificed my membership for a while; I still had access to all my audio books that I'd already paid for. I could even buy more if I didn't mind paying "list price." (So I didn't.)

I think the last time I had an active membership subscription was sometime around 2007, for a few months.

Over the course of time, I've gotten married, moved three times, including to different states, even saw Amazon buy up Audible and integrate it into their "family."

I've even released two of my books on Audible, and bought a couple individual titles via Amazon because they were on special when purchased with the book. So maybe 2-3 times in the past couple years, I've added new titles to my Audible library.

Guess what?

Despite not being an active monthly subscriber for probably six years or so, and all those life-changes (I always updated my account info when necessary), Audible.com is somehow still around.

Not only that, every single title I've EVER bought from them is still available to me, often in higher-quality formats than I originally selected.

Not a bad track record; they have kept their original promise now for about 13-14 years, with me being a regular, monthly-fee-paying subscriber for only maybe 4-5 of those years, added all together.

Audible.com was a company that basically popularized the concept of Cloud storage before it ever was called that.

Now lots of people do it.

For me, the trick to Cloud storage risk-management is this:

I go with a redundancy approach.

I don't go all-in with one cloud solution... I go with several. (As well as USB drives and external HDDs.)

Right now, at this precise moment, I have cloud storage accounts at:

* Dropbox
* Google
* Amazon Cloud

And thanks to the new smartphone I picked up this week, I'm about to add "Box.com" to the mix.

So, like I said, I use several cloud solutions. I generally go with what each one offers me for free, whether that's 2GB, 4GB or 15GB.

But I don't go all-in with just one solution. I don't pay for extra storage, either. (So far.)

But, like, for my use of Scrivener, I keep my .scriv project files saved locally, but also saved to Google Drive and backed up to Dropbox.

And I periodically back up those files to a USB flash-drive and an external HDD.

I also mail my completed drafts and such to myself, from Yahoo to Gmail or Gmail to Yahoo.

So, between 3-4 cloud drive solutions available to me, plus USB, external HDD, internal HDD, and two email services... I definitely go redundant on stuff I want to keep.

(I definitely back up my Kindle contents periodically, too.)

A LOT of things would have to go wrong all at once for me to actually lose something permanently.

Maybe if Russia drops a bomb on us, and direct-hits Portland, I'd lose everything.

But then I wouldn't be alive to worry about it, either. 

Anyway, the whole scenario of "miss one payment and they delete everything" isn't realistic.

For example, I got 50GB added to my Dropbox account "free for two years" when I bought my Samsung phone around 18 months ago.

In their TOS, they said if I use the space up, but decide not to pay, "your content will still be there, accessible, but you won't be able to add anything new" until I "remove enough content to get back down to whatever my lower limit is. (Another way to go, without paying for additional storage. Just move some files around from one cloud service to another.)

They also told me that if I ever bought another product with a similar promotion, that'd solve it, too.

I hope this year to be able to afford a Chromebook. If/when I do, I'll be getting 100GB free for two years on Google Drive.

When time runs out on that? I could just buy a new Chromebook at get another two years on that 100GB. And frankly, two years from now, Google might make 100GB the new "free" offering anyway, and be giving away 250GB for two years, free with any Chromebook purchase. Who knows?

What I do know is I'm nowhere near maxed out on any of my cloud drive services, and it's all saved at more than one site, and it's all on my PC hard drive, thumb drives, and external HDDs and sometimes email as well.

So... I think I'm relatively safe, if somewhat OCD.  But if I'm OCD about this stuff, it's because before I started doing all this, I lost the same novel, three times, due to two PC hard drive crashes and a boss who accidentally wiped my USB Zip Drive and hitting "yes" inadvertently on "Format Y/N?" prompt that came up on his PC. (He had grabbed the wrong zip drive... mine instead of his.) 

Losing the same novel completely, three times, taught me not only to back up, but to do so redundantly. Because after re-starting the novel that many times, I just gave up and moved on to the next novel idea.

Even so, I save nothing to Dropbox exclusively... I always go redundant. Safer that way.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Mike Essex said:


> I sell one of my indie books at $9.99 and it actually sells the same amount of copies it sold at $0.99 (around 50 a month).


I see *so many* people, in so many places, saying this and very similar things.

I think the difference between yourself (together with all the other people saying this and very similar things) and others who mistakenly imagine that they'll make more money at lower prices because they'll have more customers at lower prices is that _you were willing to test it for yourself_ with an open mind, whereas the people fearfully clinging to their "compete on price" marketing policies didn't feel the need to test it methodically because "they already knew they were right". (And of course knowing that you're right makes it pretty hard to learn anything valuable.)


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> "Nothing like that," he said. "I'm actually paying them better by praying for them to be more blessed in heaven than on earth. God gave them their talent, so they should just trust Him to provide for their needs in this world. I don't expect non-religious writers to understand any of that, so that's why I pay for their stuff. But religious writers should understand. I'm doing them a favor."


Wow, that's just messed up.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

swolf said:


> Wow, that's just messed up.


Agreed.

Amazing how far some people go to rationalize IP theft. 

I guess "You shall not steal" got edited out of what I'm guessing is his "free" Bible.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Wow, I just... wow.
> 
> Do you actually understand cloud storage and sites?
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information. I was asking questions I figured the average non-techie consumer might ask.


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## sabrinasumsion (Jun 19, 2010)

So if people will spend $50.00 for movie tickets and food, what if we started including a coupon for a free candy bar and soda in our books?  Tee hee hee.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

sabrinasumsion said:


> So if people will spend $50.00 for movie tickets and food, what if we started including a coupon for a free candy bar and soda in our books? Tee hee hee.


Now that you posted the idea, somebody's going to try it.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

James Bruno said:


> But here's what perplexes me about Amazon. I released a short nonfiction book the other day, priced at $2.99. Today it ranks at 135,212 in overall Amazon ebook sales, and at #41 and 42 among the top 100 in two genre categories. Well, I thought, not bad after 48 hours. They must be flying off the shelves. But when I check in at KDP, all of two books have sold. Now, is it that easy to rise in Amazon rankings with a mere two sales, or could it be true sales data hasn't kicked in yet? Very confusing.


Just a reminder: sales rank is not an absolute. It is calculated in relation to everything else. Two sales on a slow day will have more impact than 20 sales on a busy day. Because your sales rank is not based on gross volume, but units sold in comparison to everyone else. This is why you want to avoid releasing a book around the same time as multiple mega-sellers, because even if you do well your rank will be diminished by the sales volume of the other books. For example, let's just uses some arbitrary numbers. Let's say on Monday Amazon sells 500,000 books. Of those, 10 are yours. This puts you at a rank of 10,000. On Tuesday, Amazon sells 750,000 books, and you sell ten copies. You sold the same number of books, but your rank will drop to 20,000.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

Price matters more to me when it's an unknown author. I'm willing to gamble a few dollars on an unknown, and then more once I've read/liked their work, but I'm unlikely to plunk down more than $4.99 for someone I've never read. However, once an eBook reaches the $6.99+ range, I'd rather buy the paperback.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

JFHilborne said:


> Price matters more to me when it's an unknown author. I'm willing to gamble a few dollars on an unknown, and then more once I've read/liked their work, but I'm unlikely to plunk down more than $4.99 for someone I've never read. However, once an eBook reaches the $6.99+ range, I'd rather buy the paperback.


People always claim this, but how is it traditional publishers routinely sell unknown authors at the same price as big name authors? EVERY AUTHOR was not only unknown at some time, but is unknown RIGHT NOW to a large portion of the general public. Nobody in my office knows who Hugh Howey is. Not a one of them. And I talk to them about books all the time because they all know I write and publish. If I named the authors of the last five books I've read, I doubt the majority of people would have heard of them. Most of them have lists of publishing credits the length of my arm, but that doesn't change the fact that they are "unknown" to most people.

In that regard, I can't think of a time when I paid less for a movie ticket simply because it had unknown actors in it. And ironically, most of the Star Wars fanboys are screaming online that they want "unknowns" in the lead roles for the new movie. *shrug*


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> People always claim this, but how is it traditional publishers routinely sell unknown authors at the same price as big name authors?


Mom buys it? That doesnt tell us much unless we now quantities routinely sold. The fact that something sells at a given price tells us nothing about its revenue maximizing price.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

In the Young Adult genre, ebook prices are generally not that far off from the trade size paperback print prices - in traditional publishing. I often will buy the book instead of the ebook because of that and because it's then easy to pass on to my daughter when I'm finished with it. 

I wonder if this is one reason why print is still king in the YA genre? I know I think carefully about buying an ebook that is only a dollar or two different in price than the print book.

On the flip side, when I see  that closeness in price, I automatically assume the book is traditionally published. There could possibly be real competitive value in pricing higher in an effort to 'look traditional'. But only if those darn teens start buying more ebooks........

We've learned to create covers and blurbs that make us indistinguishable from traditional, is pricing next?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I want to address two things:
First:  You mean I got an entire Joe Nobody novel for 99 cents.    Squeeing, dancing around the room and hugging those that want one.

Second:  About the guy that said faith based stuff should be free.  Biblically speaking: he is right.  According to the bible: you cannot be rewarded both on earth and in heaven.  So where do you want your rewards?  
This doesn't mean I want them free, it just means if you are trying to sell the Lord, you will get your rewards $$$ here and not in heaven.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

JFHilborne said:


> Price matters more to me when it's an unknown author.


I understand that some people have this perspective, of course. But fortunately for me, and all the others like me whose books sell successfully at $6.99/$7.99/whatever, _overall_, that's a small minority perspective. (Though I acknowledge that in this forum, perhaps it isn't!).

As Julie points out, above, trade publishers routinely and successfully publish the first books of unknown authors at standard prices.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Second: About the guy that said faith based stuff should be free. Biblically speaking: he is right. According to the bible: you cannot be rewarded both on earth and in heaven. So where do you want your rewards?
> This doesn't mean I want them free, it just means if you are trying to sell the Lord, you will get your rewards $$$ here and not in heaven.


This is why I throw in with an massive world-dragon made of platinum. What does he care? He's literally made of money.

And of actual worth too, not like those gold dragons who material worth is based on gullibility.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Something to keep in mind, because I'm noticing a pattern here: when I hear from authors who price their books at $4.99 or over (basing it entirely on word count), their sales numbers are very modest. 

This is why I wanted people to give their sales numbers to bolster their case, because when New Author A show up and hears 50 authors telling him to sell anything over 300-pages at $4.99, he doesn't hear the other part: that those 50 authors are only selling 50 copies a month per book at that price, and have been doing it for years now. New Author A might be better off pricing low to collect readers and build up an audience as he begins his venture, because from my own experience, the lower you make the entry level into your brand, the more likely a new reader will take a chance on you, the complete unknown.

Of course, there are outliers like Joe Nobody, who rules prepper fiction. But face it, guys, we can't all be Joe Nobody.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> As Julie points out, above, trade publishers routinely and successfully publish the first books of unknown authors at standard prices.


And Julie forgets to mention that trad publishers send out legions of ARCs to reviewers and gets the books reviewed in trade magazines and newspapers, and have a huge promotional campaign for books they believe will sell. So you hear about the debut authors they are high on, but not all the other ones they signed but have given up on.

Apples to oranges.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

jackcrows said:


> Something to keep in mind, because I'm noticing a pattern here: when I hear from authors who price their books at $4.99 or over (basing it entirely on word count), their sales numbers are very modest.


Something else to keep in mind. There are different markets within the market. Not everyone sells like gangbusters on Amazon. Some authors sell better on other sales channels where customers aren't as resistant to higher prices or maybe their marketing effort isn't focused on wooing Amazon customers. It's a mistake to assume someone isn't selling because their sales rankings on Amazon isn't great. Amazon isn't the only game in town.

ETA: One other thing, even a few sales every month at upwards of $5.99 per book at multiple retailers adds up to give an author a very nice payday.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

jackcrows said:


> Something to keep in mind, because I'm noticing a pattern here: when I hear from authors who price their books at $4.99 or over (basing it entirely on word count), their sales numbers are very modest.
> 
> This is why I wanted people to give their sales numbers to bolster their case, because when New Author A show up and hears 50 authors telling him to sell anything over 300-pages at $4.99, he doesn't hear the other part: that those 50 authors are only selling 50 copies a month per book at that price, and have been doing it for years now. New Author A might be better off pricing low to collect readers and build up an audience as he begins his venture, because from my own experience, the lower you make the entry level into your brand, the more likely a new reader will take a chance on you, the complete unknown.
> 
> Of course, there are outliers like Joe Nobody, who rules prepper fiction. But face it, guys, we can't all be Joe Nobody.


As one of the writers who prices my novels at $4.95 (okay it's five cents lower than $4.99  ) I want to say that I don't make a case for selling at this price point. I make a case for selling at the price point that works for YOUR business. Doing what's best for my business is the most important thing I've learned in the two years I've been self-publishing.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You know I have been sitting here thinking about this idea.  This is the exact same argument I heard over in the crafting world.  Those were some amusing arguments.  Here were some of the leading arguments: 3 times cost of supplies, a penny a stitch, X number of dollars per hour, cost of supplies+ x$ per hour, and assorted other variations.  If you were slower you should charge less per hour, faster more per hour, everyone should charge x per hour.  It was fascinating to watch.  Oh and it didn't matter the craft.  If you used unicorn farts you should charge more than if you used dinosaur farts.

My thought was always how much do you want to make?    Will you make money at that price?    What cost will your particular market bear?

Little example:  Let's do scarves.    All are the same pattern.  The difference is the material cost.    Let's say that Suzie, Carol, Lora and Jill set up booths with kid scarves made from easy to clean, durable yarn and charge $7.99 each.  They have a good chance of making some money.  Now let's say Frederika comes in with kid scarves made from the finest silk.  She wants $79.99 for her stuff.  Who do you think will sell more at this craft fair?    
That is easy the $7.99 bunch.
Now let's take these same scarves to an upscale boutique.    Frederika will make a fortune and the cheap scarves will be left out in the cold.

It all depends on the market you are trying to hit.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

_Someone_ called my a hypocrite elsewhere (I won't say who, but now they know I'm watching.) for having a $9 anthology out when I wouldn't pay more than $5 for a digital file.

Well two things:

1) I'm not selling that book to me. I'm selling it to people that wanted all four component books in a single file. I still wouldn't buy it myself, at least not without grabbing the free Book 1 to see if I'm going to want the rest of the series.

2) It _is_ four books in a single file, not one book. Also, the thing is huge. I'm not pushing 3000 words for a fiver here, the thing is a quarter million words. Printed out, I could strap this thing to a pole and use it to knock down wall/my enemies.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

jackcrows said:


> Something to keep in mind, because I'm noticing a pattern here: when I hear from authors who price their books at $4.99 or over (basing it entirely on word count), their sales numbers are very modest.


Define "modest." That's yet another thing that has to be defined in order to answer your question. Equate sales to annual income. What is modest $50k, $100k, a cool mil?


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

No way, never! Nuh uh, I can't do that. It would have to be a really good novella to do that.

Because 90% of what I buy these days are _novellas and novellettes_. Especially series of novellas and novellettes. I rarely pay .99 though, I usually look around 1.49 and up. The most I've paid I think is $3.99 but my favorite is around $2.99. I also rapidly read and review something I like. (I usually have it text to speeched with me through dinner, cleaning, or through my daughter's Hello Kitty DVD's so I don't go mad. ) I should look at audible but I heard it's 30 bucks a month from somewhere and I can't afford that.

Now novels? I read novels at one time but I am not as into them anymore, so why would I pay over $4.99 for something that will just sit unread on my kindle for a long time? For a novel I would take a chance at free and _maybe_ $2.99 if I really think I want to try it.

For non-fiction though, I'll pay up to around $15.99 unless there's no other book like it. I don't care about the word count, but the _content inside_. Novel, novella, pictures or not, whatever. I've been burned too many times by the lower priced non-fiction cleaning books though. I want the best of the best, so my deal is usually around $9.99 (if I shop at Amazon) or so if it's got the experience or content to help me. These purchases I usually don't just buy in a day though, I do sampling and researching at other sites first. Doing this so far I haven't been burned once.

My last one was this:



So like six months later my mail is still under control and I can still sort of walk into my closet.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

von19 said:


> I guess I'll just have to fall face first into this and see what happens.


One can do all the info-gathering they can, and that's smart--to a point. But there is always the risk of paralysis by analysis. Like it or not, there does come that fateful day where falling "face first" is the only option.

Good luck! 

And, Joe, you are amazing in that after all you've been through, you shared those stellar numbers. My eyes are still glittering.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Serena Walken said:


> For non-fiction though, I'll pay up to around $15.99 unless there's no other book like it. I don't care about the word count, but the _content inside_. Novel, novella, pictures or not, whatever. I've been burned too many times by the lower priced non-fiction cleaning books though. I want the best of the best, so my deal is usually around $9.99 (if I shop at Amazon) or so if it's got the experience or content to help me. These purchases I usually don't just buy in a day though, I do sampling and researching at other sites first. Doing this so far I haven't been burned once.
> 
> My last one was this:
> 
> ...


I have slowly learned don't even pick up those organizing books for free. So far every one of them has been regurgitated insect woman in one form or another. 
And I have yet to find one that actually takes into consideration a person might like to cook and craft.
In other words I use everything now tell me how to organize it not just throw it all out.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> If you used unicorn farts you should charge more than if you used dinosaur farts.


Oh my God... I love this! 

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

EC Sheedy said:


> One can do all the info-gathering they can, and that's smart--to a point. But there is always the risk of paralysis by analysis. Like it or not, there does come that fateful day where falling "face first" is the only option.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks, I slowly feel like I'm headed in that direction already. So for now, I'll release a few shorts to test the waters and see how things go.

Thanks again 

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> ...If you used unicorn farts you should charge more than if you used dinosaur farts.


_*Finally!*_ The secret sauce!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

jackcrows said:


> And ***** forgets to mention that trad publishers send out legions of ARCs to reviewers and gets the books reviewed in trade magazines and newspapers, and have a huge promotional campaign for books they believe will sell. So you hear about the debut authors they are high on, but not all the other ones they signed but have given up on.
> 
> Apples to oranges.


But I thought the standard indie argument was that publishers don't promote books? If publishers don't promote books, then what is this huge promotional campaign you speak of? If publishers DO promote books, then why is the standard mantra from indies that authors have to do all of the promotion?

And what is to stop indies from sending out ARCs? There are groups of indies who have banded together to get a NetGalley account to generate reviews. There is nothing to stop indies from sending out ARCs other than impatience, because they want to hit "submit" on that button ASAP instead of doing pre-release work. How many indies are willing to send out ARCs two to three months before publication? Indies can't throw a copy of their books into an envelop and send it to the local newspaper? I know indies do it.

And in any case, none of this has anything to do with pricing. Trade publishers don't price new authors any different from established authors.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

jackcrows said:


> Something to keep in mind, because I'm noticing a pattern here: when I hear from authors who price their books at $4.99 or over (basing it entirely on word count), their sales numbers are very modest.


Assuming only selling on Amazon:

100 sales a month at $5.99 is $419.30 a month.
1000 sales a month at 99 cents is $346.50 a month.

When developing a business plan, you have choices. You can use the low margin/high volume method or you can use a high margin/low volume method. Both work. Neither is wrong, so long as you understand the risks and benefits of each model. WalMart moves more overall product than Macy's. Macy's made more profit than WalMart the last quarter, however. I'm pretty sure the average McDonald's serves more customers than the average sit-down restaurant. The average sit-down restaurant can't sell a cheeseburger for 99 cents, after all. But they seem to manage. Having "modest" sales doesn't mean anything because you are comparing apples and oranges (low-profit/high volume versus high-profit/low volume business models). I have modest sales compared to a great many people. I've always said that you will never see me on an Amazon bestseller list because my marketing plan isn't Amazon focused. If your goal is high volume on Amazon, don't listen to me! I have no idea how to get a massive Amazon rank.

But what I do know is that my business is debt free, and has been for the last seven years. I recover my costs on production within 90 days on every project. I've never depended on charity or kickstarter campaigns to fund my books. I've never not paid an author or artist or editor or proofreader the money that was due them. And frankly, I'll give away more this year between writing contest prizes and convention swag than many people who sell more than me will make this year.

So the point is, the people who refuse to spend X amount on a book are one demographic. They are not the only demographic. There are others. Decide what your business model will be, target the demographic you need to reach to hit the model's goals, and don't bother with the rest.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Second: About the guy that said faith based stuff should be free. Biblically speaking: he is right. According to the bible: you cannot be rewarded both on earth and in heaven. So where do you want your rewards? This doesn't mean I want them free, it just means if you are trying to sell the Lord, you will get your rewards $$$ here and not in heaven.


Cin,

I understand what you're trying to say, and even where he was coming from. I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that, if someone writes something in a spiritual genre, that they should never get an income for it.

See, this guy was actually making two contradictory arguments at the same time, though I'm sure he didn't see it that way.

The first argument he was making is "the artist/writer/musician" *should* make their work free. That's one line of thought, but places the onus on the content-creator to make that decision. The artist's choice dictates.

The second argument he was making was that he'd never pay for spiritual stuff, but he owned tons of spiritual stuff. And he said he got all of it "without paying."

I'm relatively sure he didn't just have all that stuff "donated" to him by spiritual artists and writers. So how'd he get it, you ask?

Well, one of his methods was to go to places where "free-will offerings" and "suggested donations" were the terms, and then take stuff and just not pay. He also frequented .torrent sites for some stuff.

Abuse of spiritually-minded artists and writers is a somewhat personal issue to me, and for reasons beyond the fact that I have one such product, the book MOST LIKELY, which has some minor spiritual themes.

I know and have met a couple a bit younger than my wife and I, who do messianic music. It's all they do; they make their living as musicians. (Sue and Brian Samuel, though their music is marketed most of the time under Sue's name alone.)

Sue and Brian wanted to help out even small congregations, so early in their career, they relied solely on free-will offerings terms. Even to the point where they'd fly cross-country to a community/congregation of 25 people, only to walk away after their performance without even enough to cover their airfare and hotel.

They were quickly going bankrupt because so many folks think like that guy did... "Don't ask me for money, trust in God not money."

As a result, they've only put out three albums in the same amount of time most artists would produce six to ten. Because, when given the choice, whatever people say about their belief system, they often don't value the work of creative types, and forget that they have bills to pay, too, just like anyone else.

I won't go into all their struggles, but they are a couple I respect. Eventually, they got someone else to manage their career and now they operate under more-stable terms where they're at least not bleeding money; they get their expenses covered first and foremost, at least, before "free-will offering" comes into play.

Now, I can understand going to a concert date and maybe not laying down a lot of money for the concert itself.

But the person I'm talking about would also pick up their merchandise and expect that to be free, too. And if anyone said, "hey, there's a suggested donation," he'd point out that the donation is only suggested, not required, and if they still wouldn't let him have what he wanted for free, he'd tell them "you just lost a sale." And go on a "rewards in heaven" rant.

To me, that's not about "blessing." That's stealing and expecting others to be okay with it because they're Jewish or Christian or Messianic or whatever.

And I'm pretty sure God's not cool with justifying theft in His name. 

I did briefly try to reason with him, pointing out the difference between an artist's choice to make something permanently free or temporarily free, and actually taking content that has a price on it, but his default argument was "what you produce if you're spiritual, it belongs to God, not you, so you're selling God's stuff, not yours, and that's wrong."

Similar story:

My wife, who has been a musician for a long time, once attended a church (before we met) where she was on the music team. She had been working on a new song and shared it with the head of the music department for some feedback. He told her it wasn't "ready."

A month later, he got up in front of the church on a week Andie wasn't playing, announced to the congregation God had "given him a new song" that he'd written, and started playing Andie's song, completely unchanged. And when she confronted him, he presented the same justification: it's God's song, not yours. Really? Then why did you claim YOU wrote it? Why didn't you acknowledge Andie, who actually DID write it and whom you didn't even notify that you were going to use the song?

Furthermore, she was told it was God's song, not hers. (Though in front of the congregation, he claimed it was his.) So she was told if it bugged her, the problem was with her, not with him.

She left the congregation.

So, you see what I mean? The work of those who write or play music in a spiritual genre is often abused. Crimes like theft and plagiarism are routinely justified through spiritual excuses.

So... no offense to anyone of any particular faith, or to those of a faith who hold themselves to better honesty standards, but this has been a burr under my saddle that's been building over the years. And I think it needed some public airing because it is an artist/writer/musician issue.

When a so-called "worldly" band like, say, Metallica, complains about having their content stolen, people may or may not care based on whether they perceive Metallica to be "rich enough" or not depending on their world-view, but most people will acknowledge it as theft and the argument is over what the appropriate compensation should be.

When a so-called "spiritual" band or writer or artist has their material stolen, it's very often dismissed with these spiritual justifications, by folks who are suggesting that God doesn't mind because it's HIS content.

It's a lot harder for those folks to even get the crime against them acknowledged as a crime.

I mean, it's not like Brian and Sue, for example, were stingy folks... they did lots of charity work and giving and nearly ended up bankrupt "trusting God" (or, more practically, trusting spiritual people to respond to God and compensate them for their time.)

But simply because one writes or composes spiritual stuff shouldn't mean you've dedicated yourself to a future of homelessness, either.

I mean, if sources like the CBA is any indication, people who do produce spiritually-themed music, novels, and such, have products there's a market for. But apparently if you choose that genre, you're not spiritual enough if you expect to ever make a single penny? It's your problem for not trusting enough in God when you have to declare bankruptcy, because no one paid anything? And then they still want to know when your next album or novel or whatever is gonna be out? Seems a rather confused and contradictory mindset. Selling spiritually-themed products and "selling God" are not the same thing, at least not always.

Anyway... 'nuff said for now. Just needed to get the issue off my chest.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Macy's made more profit than WalMart the last quarter, however


.

Macy's reported 800 million.
Walmart reported 4 billion.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Macy's reported 800 million.
> Walmart reported 4 billion.


Raw income, or actual profit?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I won't quote Craig but I do agree with him completely or at least to a point.  And you will please note I said biblically.  I think there is nothing wrong with making enough to live on rather you sell music (secular or religious), books (same idea) or doodads (same idea).
On your friends, it sounds like they are good warm people that would give the shirt off their backs.  It also sounds like they were taken advantage of more than once. 
On the other person that was using that line to get free stuff, well I am pretty sure he will get his just rewards too.
On your wife, I am so sorry she met a hypocrite.  Pretty sure he will get his just rewards too.

Now what I don't approve of is people using the Lord's name to line their own pockets.  You know the old give till it hurts to help others while I the keeper of the cash, live in a mansion, country club or other high dollar housing development.

I would bet your friends have met Linda and Stan.  They do Missionary work and go all over the country.  They did have a tv show for a bit.  (Local not national) Jeanetta and Allan go all over the world on Missionary work.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Now what I don't approve of is people using the Lord's name to line their own pockets. You know the old give till it hurts to help others while I the keeper of the cash, live in a mansion, country club or other high dollar housing development.


Understood and agreed. There is a difference, naturally.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

jackcrows said:


> Of course, there are outliers like Joe Nobody, who rules prepper fiction. But face it, guys, we can't all be Joe Nobody.


And you wouldn't want to be. As I've posted 20 times on this board, don't price your books like mine just because I do and have some modest success. If I were starting out all over again today, I'm sure I wouldn't get away with my pricing. If I wrote in a different genera, I would have to study and experiment with pricing.

I post on these threads because while I believe $9.99 is probably a bit much for the average title, I also firmly believe many of you are pricing lower than need be. I'm only trying offset the natural, beginning-writers tendency to give away their product.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Note:

Joe, I appreciate your example in terms of pricing.

When I was getting started, I priced my stuff everywhere from free to $0.99 to $2.99 and never more than that.

Now I price more based on length of the work.

I tend to confine my prices to topping out at $4.99 because that's a price I grew up with for mass-market paperbacks, and when prices started rising above that point, I started slowing my own buying.

So it's maybe a generational thing. But at least I'm not racing to the bottom anymore. I have a book perma-free and others that have prices based on length now.

I think it's a growth process for all of us; finding our own comfort level.

That said, I am hoping to publish at least three new titles this year after having put out only two short stories in the last two years, mainly because I was working on a couple longer projects that are now close to ready.

My sales are moribund no matter how I price them, but hopefully an injection of new titles will help.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Raw income, or actual profit?


Net income.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Net income.


If you compare Walmart and Macy's on the basis of profit margin, Macy's did better. "Key Statistics" charts from Yahoo Finance:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=WMT
Walmart: profit margin 3.36%, operating margin 5.64%.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=M+Key+Statistics
Macy's: profit margin 5.32%., operating margin 9.88%

Good article on how to make comparisons of companies by profit margin:
http://www.aaii.com/computerizedinvesting/article/profit-margin-analysis.mobile

Disclaimer: I'm not an investor and not an expert in the field. Just saying that on this basis of comparison, Macy's looks better. I also think that Walmart and Macy's are targeting two different demographics. They are both retailers but are going after different groups of customers. Walmart targets price sensitive customers. Macy's targets quality sensitive customers. We might be able to think of books in the same way; some authors are looking for the price sensitive readers and others for more quality sensitive readers. I guess an author's target group would be determined by his/her objectives in writing books.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Bluebonnet just hit the nail square on the head.  Congrats.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Bluebonnet said:


> Walmart targets price sensitive customers. Macy's targets quality sensitive customers. We might be able to think of books in the same way; *some authors are looking for the price sensitive readers and others for more quality sensitive readers*. I guess an author's target group would be determined by his/her objectives in writing books.


Eloquently stated and sums up the ebook pricing issue in a nutshell.


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## AJHolm (Feb 18, 2014)

Monique said:


> You can also find people who say they will not buy books that at $.99 or $2.99 because they're clearly cheap for a reason, aka not any good.
> 
> Don't worry about what people say; worry about what they do. Look at your genre and decide what's best for your book(s).


This is really good advice. Most of the time, what people say and what they do are two different things.

Make sure to test your prices and see where you find the most success. Most importantly, write good books.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I also firmly believe many of you are pricing lower than need be. I'm only trying offset the natural, beginning-writers tendency to give away their product.


This is a great point. I've seen more than a few authors that list ten or twelve full length novels at .99 each. Man, at 30 percent, that's just pennies for all of your hard work.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> If you compare Walmart and Macy's on the basis of profit margin, Macy's did better. "Key Statistics" charts from Yahoo Finance:


I agree. And I have a better profit margin than both of them.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Rich Amooi said:


> This is a great point. I've seen more than a few authors that list ten or twelve full length novels at .99 each. Man, at 30 percent, that's just pennies for all of your hard work.


They are usually doing that for two reasons: To broaden readership and to hit bestseller lists.


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## coolpixel (Sep 17, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But I thought the standard indie argument was that publishers don't promote books? If publishers don't promote books, then what is this huge promotional campaign you speak of? If publishers DO promote books, then why is the standard mantra from indies that authors have to do all of the promotion?
> 
> And what is to stop indies from sending out ARCs? There are groups of indies who have banded together to get a NetGalley account to generate reviews. There is nothing to stop indies from sending out ARCs other than impatience, because they want to hit "submit" on that button ASAP instead of doing pre-release work. How many indies are willing to send out ARCs two to three months before publication? Indies can't throw a copy of their books into an envelop and send it to the local newspaper? I know indies do it.
> 
> And in any case, none of this has anything to do with pricing. Trade publishers don't price new authors any different from established authors.


I was under the impression NetGalley doesn't work with indie authors.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

coolpixel said:


> I was under the impression NetGalley doesn't work with indie authors.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You were under the wrong impression  They do.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that it takes the average person 10 hours to read a 100,000 word novel. I'm not preaching to anyone on pricing, but a few things to consider: 

-In Houston, the average movie is $14 for 3 hours, so 10 hours of cinema would $46.00.

-My cable TV bill (medium package) is $80 per month. That's .11 per hour. Ten hours of entertainment (taking out commercials) would be $1.65. Throw in a little electric cost and wear/tear on the tube and you're probably close to $2.00.

-Sports tickets are just off the scale expensive. We just paid $80 each for nosebleed seats at a Rockets game; three hours of entertainment. Three games would be $240.

-A day at an amusement park? Pick your price and dig deep, baby.

-Bowling? Golf? They ain't cheap. (I think a 3-pack sleeve of gold balls is like $9.00 now. Our books aren't worth a single golf ball?)

- Fishing? Frozen shrimp (common bait) was $5.99 per pound. You would need at least 2 pounds for 10 hours of fishing.

-Even a Sunday drive in the countryside, with gas at $3.00 per gallon, would be $90.00 for ten hours.

- How much is the average magazine at the grocery store? Mrs. Nobody buys some of them for the crossword puzzle (or so she claims). I think they run about $4.99 per rag?

And my favorite pastime, shooting... I burn through over $300 of ammo an hour on average.

Now, I'm all for our books being the absolute best value in entertainment. And it's tuff to complete with cable TV. But other than that media, should the value of our product be so low?

Again, I'm not advocating any pricing strategy. But these are the things I consider.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I was reading an article recently and the writer said, "Pricing wars between businesses never help either." So yeah... theres that.

The only thing I can think of is a universal pricing range agreed upon by most indie authors. 

(Though I seriously doubt that would ever happen.)

But assuming that it did, people could stop underpricing their work and at least make a decent income.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> And my favorite pastime, shooting... I burn through over $300 of ammo an hour on average.


Gha-... I was thinking about taking up shooting, and you just convinced me I should master the slingshot instead.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Now, I'm all for our books being the absolute best value in entertainment. And it's tuff to complete with cable TV. But other than that media, should the value of our product be so low?


Should it be so low? Sure. Its a free market and it is operating very well. This is how a free market works.



> I was reading an article recently and the writer said, "Pricing wars between businesses never help either." So yeah... theres that.


Low prices help consumers.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

When this thread started, I got inspired and changed my price from 2.99 to 4.99.  I'm not a big seller, so I can't say if my trend is up or not, but I sold a book yesterday -- at 4.99 

So hey, I'm happy.  And by that, I mean I'm going to buy a Happy Meal at McDonald's.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

johnlmonk said:


> When this thread started, I got inspired and changed my price from 2.99 to 4.99. I'm not a big seller, so I can't say if my trend is up or not, but I sold a book yesterday -- at 4.99
> 
> So hey, I'm happy. And by that, I mean I'm going to buy a Happy Meal at McDonald's.


Lol thats great, congrats 

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Joe,
Last time I looked those rags were closer to $7.99.    
Yall don't want to get into the needlearts either.  I about have heart failure every time I go in a craft store.  I can't give you prices though because I have found most of my stuff at the thrift stores.  But then yall know I am cheap.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I stopped getting Maximum PC when they hit $10.

Then again, Pop Sci now works out to 90 cents an issue for my sub.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Steve W. said:


> Gha-... I was thinking about taking up shooting, and you just convinced me I should master the slingshot instead.


Don't let my example put you off. Trap or skeet is still pretty reasonable. You can have some fun with pistols or .22 rifles and get off much cheaper. We go out and do tactical stuff, which eats expensive calibers up like candy.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Actually that formula is applicable. The answer is 0...so you should be on permafree


Hahaha. Damn, you cost me another keyboard....


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Bluebonnet said:


> Suppose you used a credit card with automatic payments to pay the cloud storage company. Then you get laid off from your job, run short of money, start being late on your cc payments, and the cc company declines the next charge that comes in from the cloud storage company. Poof, they drop your account and your files are all gone. Or you have so many medical bills that you end up having to file BK and all your credit cards are canceled. You lose everything when your account goes unpaid. Or suppose it's something less drastic, like your cc expired and you forgot to update it with the cloud company. How do you get all your files back if the cloud company ever cancels your account, for whatever reason? Do they hold those files for a certain period of time after nonpayment, or is it all gone forever if you miss one payment?


Or you rent a house and you get laid off and you stop paying rent and you get evicted. I'm a fiction writer myself, but I tend to steer clear from over-dramatizing situations. I have photos on a photo website, where I pay yearly. If my credit card expires or I miss a payment, I'll get a reminder email. If I ignore that, I get a second one. If I ignore that, I'll probably get an email that they will cancel my account if I don't pay. And then they'll freeze my account until they figure out that I'm not going to pay ever again, before they delete all my photos.

It's not like a provider will say, 'hey, they missed a payment, let's just cancel their account and destroy their files'. Most will try to keep the customer happy, as long as the customer communicates. I know people have been evicted for not paying the rent, but they were also incommunicado and the housing company simply couldn't make arrangements for a payment plan or whatever, so in the end they evict someone, but that's not after missing the rent just once.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Seems like a good place to ask... My upcoming novel is about 54k words. I am planning to sell it at either 2.99 or 3.99 (or 3.14). To me, this seems reasonable for a new author. 

I have a well designed cover, strong feedback from beta-readers, and a great editor lined up. 

The sequel is half-written, and I have a trilogy planned. I also have two short stories included in upcoming anthologies.

My genre is science fiction (post-apocalyptic, dystopian), buy my writing style has often been described as 'literary'. 

Am I targeting the right price range?


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

I would start at 3.99, then if you need to promo it then you can drop it to 2.99 which is a nice 25 percent sale without losing too much revenue. if you start at 2.99 then because of the dreaded 1.99 deadzone pushes you into 99c sales which at 35c a copy don't tend to boost sales in a lot of genres enough to outweigh the loss of revenue.

I know a lot of authors do well at 99c and permafree but they are generally in very big readership categories like romance, erotica and YA. my work in thrillers and military has a relatively smaller readership and over 18 months i didn't see a big enough uptick at 99c to offset the royalty loss from pricing at 3.99 or 5.99. Given a smaller readership pool its better to maximise per reader revenue because my feeling with smaller genres is you sell slow and consistent rather than huge numbers that are price sensitive.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't price anything lower than 2.99, and have decided everything over 60K words is going to be 3.99, and over 100K 4.95. That said. I do plan on making book one in my series perma free one day.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Freddy Hansen said:


> I would start at 3.99, then if you need to promo it then you can drop it to 2.99 which is a nice 25 percent sale without losing too much revenue. if you start at 2.99 then because of the dreaded 1.99 deadzone pushes you into 99c sales which at 35c a copy don't tend to boost sales in a lot of genres enough to outweigh the loss of revenue.
> 
> I know a lot of authors do well at 99c and permafree but they are generally in very big readership categories like romance, erotica and YA. my work in thrillers and military has a relatively smaller readership and over 18 months i didn't see a big enough uptick at 99c to offset the royalty loss from pricing at 3.99 or 5.99. Given a smaller readership pool its better to maximise per reader revenue because my feeling with smaller genres is you sell slow and consistent rather than huge numbers that are price sensitive.


Yes, 2.99 seems like the lower limit, mostly because of Amazon's royalty policies.

At this stage, the money isn't a concern for me. Cover design and editing costs money, but I can cover it without pain. My real concern is readership. I believe my writing is strong (based on feedback) and my direction is different, even risky. I get the impression that underpricing the novel (e.g. 99c) will reduce its impact, as people will be less likely to actually read it.

I'd be interested in hearing how pricing models work across different genres and audiences. I have nothing against erotica/romance/young-adult writers, but I have a feeling that thing work completely different for literary science fiction.


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Yes, 2.99 seems like the lower limit, mostly because of Amazon's royalty policies.
> 
> At this stage, the money isn't a concern for me. Cover design and editing costs money, but I can cover it without pain. My real concern is readership. I believe my writing is strong (based on feedback) and my direction is different, even risky. I get the impression that underpricing the novel (e.g. 99c) will reduce its impact, as people will be less likely to actually read it.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing how pricing models work across different genres and audiences. I have nothing against erotica/romance/young-adult writers, but I have a feeling that thing work completely different for literary science fiction.


it definitely has an impact. 99c worked at the start, the only 1 star review I got "bad as expected' which made me laugh because if it was bad as you expected why did you read it? because it was free of course. When i put my prices up to 4.99 I found i still got healthy sales but mostly positive 4 and 5 star reviews because only readers who were really interested in the genre and story paid for it. The side benefit i found was I have had 18 months with zero refunds and a 100 percent sell through rate for my second book. The other thing i noticed (and i don't have a big enough sample pool to really prove this, its more of a gut feeling) when i put my prices up each sale actually boosted my rankings much higher than the lower price books did. I'm not sure if Amazon have done something where the price of the books sold rather than just total copies sold is influencing popularity. Like i said I don't have empirical proof it could have just been slow sales days on the rest of the category.

That said I feel that the quality of my readership at the higher price point felt better and psychologically i felt better about writing my books. seeing 35 royalties and getting 30 dollar cheques for 100 books isn't as good as getting 350 dollar cheques for the same sales. Given the low volume i was getting at 99c i wasn't getting the 10x uplift in readership that would have justified the lost margin - I would say 10-20 percent drop off at 4.99 vs 99c. 99c sales slowed sometime last year and never really came back.

Once my sales flatlined i decided to pull the books entirely. I tried the smaller series size in my genre and they generally just bounced around the 50-150K overall rankings and weren't getting enough velocity to justify the format. For my future work I'm focusing on using Dean's model and writing full length (well Clancy Length) 750 page efforts and pricing them at 9.99. Given the sheer weight of competition at the bottom end of the market the level of research and effort into creating a Clancy length thriller means I would rather chase the quality market at the top and have lower readership than compete down in the lower tiers which require a huge concentration on marketing and promotions.

I actually feel that in the thriller genre at least low pricing is working against sales now as readers race for quality, therefore I think a full length well researched hitter at 9.99 may likely out perform my lower end starter efforts. I'm shopping the MS to agents first though because the economics of doing a POD hardback at 750 pages and pretty dire hence my original strategy to split the story from 700 pages into three 225 page 90K word parts.


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