# Does anyone actually write clean books?



## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

You may read the title and think I am having a go. I really am not. I think everyone has a story to tell and you can write what ever genre you like. I was just reading several posts on the forum from today and a few days back about erotic books being removed, violent books being removed and I noticed a large portion of the talking points are about violent or books of a sexual nature.

I was just curious to see if anyone wrote clean novels or set out to write clean novels. I personally did set out to write a clean novel. My book has a very large running battle where all the various characters go into unique and dangerous situations, but I remember a Jackie Chain interview (forgive my reference!) but he said, which I agree, you can have a action packed violent movie without showing all the gory details and in fact turn a tense situation, which makes a point, into a more reader friendly situation where you touch on the subject without going dark. An example being his movies, the most amazing fight scenes, but 99% of them PG, as he doesn't allow anything graphic in his movies.

My novel is about dealing with losing a loved one and the next one is about drugs, and they are books for kids and adults, but I do set out to write clean books, positive messages and stuff people will walk away from feeling good about. Am I in a minority? I know there are kids authors here, but does anyone write clean adult books too? Would be interesting to see. 

Also, I am not having a go, so be kind!


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## jackblaine (May 22, 2011)

Helper12 is clean, if by clean you mean no extreme language and no explicit sex.  And I hope it explores themes that will make folks think.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

My book is very clean. There is not a single swear word to be found in all 100,000 words of the novel. There was one (the D word, I think) but it got excised. Whatever violence is present is described in such minimalist detail that it could easily be PG.

As for sex, there is only one mention of it and it is between a married couple. In my books, only the villains have sex outside of marriage.

However, the main character is naked throughout the entire book. In fact, almost all the characters who travel through time are naked. Although there is nothing overtly sexual about it -- and thanks to Janet Jackson -- the mere presence of nipples in my book would make it rated R in America (at least if it were made into a movie).

I'm not sure there's a huge market for clean books, but I write what books I like, not what books will sell.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

By clean do you mean characters taking showers?   

Tee-hee-hee.  

Yeah - I'm twisted. 

Sorry - I couldn't help it.   

Anyhow, on the subject of your post - I think the only story I've written that is clean - meaning without one or more of the following: swears, sex or violence - is Pollywogs & Watermoccasins.  

The rest don't fall into the clean zone and some fall on the really - really dirty side of the fence.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

JETaylor said:


> The rest don't fall into the clean zone and some fall on the really - *really dirty side of the fence*.


Let me guess:

Office Games is dirty?


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I do keep my books clean, because I like to read clean books. I think we naturally write what we like to read. It's hard to find clean romance that isn't christian romance, so that's one reason I wrote Not What She Seems. I wanted a story that had some romance, some suspense, and a mystery.

My young adult romances fit in their genre a little better because most of the time YA romance is clean, although not always.

Vicki


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> Let me guess:
> 
> Office Games is dirty?


LOL - Yes indeed.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I guess I wouldn't qualify for this thread (depends on what people consider "dirty" and "Clean," I guess). Even in my contemporary romances, people fall in love and have sex. However, I just thought to note, I still have a commitment to positive stories; hope triumphs over fear, optimism is valued over cynicism, and characters develop, through love and consideration, to be better, more free people. So I'm not sure if pure "cleanliness" is a requirement for producing positive, feel-good stories. I might not qualify for "clean", but I am glad there are all sorts of writers, and some work with an eye to the brighter side of things (in all sorts of ways).


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

I think the idea of dividing books into 'clean' and (presumably) 'dirty' categories is absurd - by this criteria it would mean that books like the Bible would fall into the dirty category, given the sexual acts and genocides contained in it. The world is a million shades of gray, not black and white. Not clearly 'clean' and 'dirty.'  The clean/dirty definition is too loaded to begin with. It says more about the questioner than anything else.
/2 cents mode off


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## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

Thank you for the quick replies everyone.



> Helper12 is clean, if by clean you mean no extreme language and no explicit sex. And I hope it explores themes that will make folks think.


I think for me my definition of clean is something I would be happy with my family reading. An example people Terry Pratchett, some dark themes, but designed for adults and kids alike.



> I'm not sure there's a huge market for clean books, but I write what books I like, not what books will sell


I totally agree. I posted about my book having a U.S bestseller ranking last week and how I was over the moon, as I just wrote a story I really wanted to write and wasn't sure if others would take to it. So, I totally get writing what you are passionate about.



> Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


I do love how you casually added "and had children getting slaughted", but I think this is one of my points. I grew up on the awesome 80's movies and some of those Labyrinth, Willow, The Witches, Flight of the Navigator and so on have like quite dark themes to them. They are clean stories, but all tackle quite dark issues. If a scene is key to a story then it must be told. I think one of the most impressive things I ever read, which dealt with a dark issue (back to pratchett) was when granny weatherwax aborted a child in the opening chapter of a discworld novel. It was really shocking, dark but handled it such a delicate way that for me that classed as a clean book. If that makes sense.



> think part of the problem, and please don't take this the wrong way because I am not pointing fingers here, is that when books are too clean, they are perceived as too sweet or sugary. It takes a deft hand to create characters who are good, without making them 'goody'. Does that make sense?


I completely agree. I think the clean books, which i write, I had to create a personal conflict. It is hard to explain without contradicting myself. I think a story can be clean and dark and full of conflict at the same time. The classic example of a fantasy story "Never Ending Story" a brilliant story, wish I wrote it. It has dark issues, the horse drowning in the swamp, all the creatures dying, the evil wolf, bullying and so on. That is a clean book. It touched on loads of different issues, subjects and emotions, but dealt with them in the right way.


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## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

I write what's considered "clean humor," but then sometimes I get criticized for not being "edgy" enough. My forthcoming novel has taken me into new territory--because some of my characters refused to be "cleaned up."


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

_Xanthan Gumm_ is clean from the standpoint of swearing and sex, but it still could offend people with satire of religion and the military. I keep my superhero stories to the same standards as network TV when it comes to swearing, because I wanted young comic book fans to be able to read them, but I may again offend in other ways.

In my horror stories, all bets are off.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

"Clean" is partially in the eye of the beholder.

Off-topic example: When I was in college, I was a big fan of Michael W. Smith's music. (He's a very popular Christian music artist, for those who don't know.)

I always considered his work squeaky-clean.

Then, one day, I read a review of his album GO WEST YOUNG MAN, released around 1990. It was an ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY review, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, the reviewer didn't work for a Christian magazine, is the point, and spoke his mind freely.

He made the point that Smith's songs were rife with references to "the blood of Jesus" and "perfect sacrifices" and all these "gory images that, while Biblical, are not exactly appealing, or age-appropriate for young children."

While I think the reviewer probably had an agenda, since record labeling was a big issue still, back in 1990, thanks to Tipper Gore... he also had a point.

Which tells me, "clean is in the eye of the beholder."

That being said, there are several writers on KB who might fill the bill.

Among the best is Victorine Lieske. She writes very clean, "pure as the wind-driven snow" fiction. But is a very solid and effective writer. And her novels are fascinating.

I guess you could say I fit the bill, as well, in that I generally avoid profanity by placing it in narration rather than dialog.

In other words, in my stories, you'll see this:

Ember swore and stormed down the hallway.

Instead of this:

"#($* you!," Ember said, and stormed down the hallway.

Like in your example, MOST LIKELY draws on potentially dark themes like child abuse, suicide, teen sexual activity and such... but most readers seem to feel the way in which the subjects are broached keeps the novel on the "clean" or at least "cleaner" side of the tracks.

And that's by design and intent. I just don't want to write stuff in a way that I wouldn't read aloud. In public. With authority figures and folks I care about in attendance.

So, there's Vicki, there's me... and I know there are several others who write without a lot of sex and violence... but Vicki's the one that comes to mind most readily.

Actually, I just realized that horror writer David McAfee's novel 33 AD is pretty clean for a vampire novel. Sure, there are vamps and they feed... but I don't remember much profanity, if any. And very little in terms of sex that wouldn't feel equally at home in a cozy mystery.

I'm not sure Amanda Hocking is big on profanity, either. I haven't been through all her books yet, but I don't recall a lot of harsh stuff.

I know there are tons of others that I just haven't read/don't recall at the moment.

So if that's your flavor, there are choices...


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

Ian Fraser said:


> I think the idea of dividing books into 'clean' and (presumably) 'dirty' categories is absurd - by this criteria it would mean that books like the Bible would fall into the dirty category, given the sexual acts and genocides contained in it. The world is a million shades of gray, not black and white. Not clearly 'clean' and 'dirty.' The clean/dirty definition is too loaded to begin with. It says more about the questioner than anything else.
> /2 cents mode off


I understand the problem with labeling something clean or dirty. In order to do this adequately, you need a standard of clean or dirty to compare it against. That's not easy to do since everyone's sensibilities are different. One person might read The Great Altruist and think it's clean by virtue of the fact that there is no graphic sex or violence. Still others would think it's dirty because they are forced to visualize boobies. Go figure.


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## 25803 (Oct 24, 2010)

I've written a number of G-rated romances, but also some with love scenes. It depends on the characters and the story they have to tell.  kissing Kelli is what's called a "sweet" romance.

I think lots of books would be considered "clean" by your definition, btw. The good thing is there are readers for every type of book, from the sweet to the graphic.


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## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

> I think the idea of dividing books into 'clean' and (presumably) 'dirty' categories is absurd - by this criteria it would mean that books like the Bible would fall into the dirty category, given the sexual acts and genocides contained in it. The world is a million shades of gray, not black and white. Not clearly 'clean' and 'dirty.' The clean/dirty definition is too loaded to begin with. It says more about the questioner than anything else.
> /2 cents mode off


I sort of have to disagree. I mean there shouldn't this is clean, this is unclean. I think common sense comes into play. Like I mentioned in my reply above. You can handle very dark themes. The bible has sexual acts and genocide, but its dealt with in the right way. It gets points across. I think the only graphic scene I read in the bible is when one of them gets scalped. If you have a sex scene then that doesn't make it unclean, if you go into detail then its an adult audience it isn't exactly clean. If you are writing a battle scene, people will die, so great, but if you go into detail about hacking someones limbs off and the bone crunching snap that isn't exactly the friendliest of books. It is just common sense.


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## ericbt (Nov 7, 2010)

My novels are pretty clean. It's one of the reasons sited for rejection from agents. "They're not edgy enough for adults, rewrite it for a YA audience, or put in more sex and violence. And people swear, try to be more realistic." I could do that, but then they wouldn't be the stories I wanted to tell and I wouldn't have felt as comfortable letting my then 13-year old niece read them.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

ericbt said:


> My novels are pretty clean. It's one of the reasons sited for rejection from agents. "They're not edgy enough for adults, rewrite it for a YA audience, or put in more sex and violence. And people swear, try to be more realistic." I could do that, but then they wouldn't be the stories I wanted to tell and I wouldn't have felt as comfortable letting my then 13-year old niece read them.


Congrats to you for not selling out like a punk! This is what I love about self-publishing: you don't have to let other people butcher your work! You may not ever get rich, but at least you'll be true to yourself. Mad props to you!!


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## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

> My novels are pretty clean. It's one of the reasons sited for rejection from agents. "They're not edgy enough for adults, rewrite it for a YA audience, or put in more sex and violence. And people swear, try to be more realistic." I could do that, but then they wouldn't be the stories I wanted to tell and I wouldn't have felt as comfortable letting my then 13-year old niece read them.


I have ten nieces and nephews and I had them in mind when I wrote the story. Would re-read scenes "Would I be happy with them reading that?" if not I didn't change the scene, just re-worded how I told it, so that it was friendlier. I think dark themes are important, as I love writing about dark themes and I try to handle them the right way.



> Congrats to you for not selling out like a punk! This is what I love about self-publishing: you don't have to let other people butcher your work! You may not ever get rich, but at least you'll be true to yourself. Mad props to you!!


You beat me to it. I was going to say that! lol.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Most of my stories tend to have a bit of violence in them so they fail the 'clean' test in that regard.

I do have plans on writing a proper 'clean' book or two at some stage.


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## JoshuaPSimon (Jun 24, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


Well, at least you gave it the old college try. ha.

Personally, I don't have any swearing and any sex is handled off camera in my writing. There is a good bit of violence and darker behavior that goes on (it is epic fantasy) but I prefer not to explain them in extreme detail. I find that an individual's own imagination will make it far worse than what I can do.


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## E.W. Saloka (Aug 21, 2011)

Our book is clean and all ages can enjoy it. We wanted our 15 old twins to be able to read it and that was important to us.  There is romance but it's the sweet fairy tale kind.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I always write clean books, and prefer to read such, too. When I look at authors like Dickens, for example, or Dostoevsky, I see that all kinds of topics can be handled, including violence and immorality, with the book still staying clean and decent.

An indie example that comes to mind is _Elfhunter_ by C.S.Marks. The title character hates elves and enjoys torturing and killing them. There are _plenty_ of such encounters in the trilogy, and they stirred all sorts of emotions in me, but they are never graphic. I think this is the best way to write, and I very much appreciate it as a reader.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

To date, all my books are clean.

All the sex and violence takes place off stage, and there really isn't all that much.

Sheila


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## ericbt (Nov 7, 2010)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> I have ten nieces and nephews and I had them in mind when I wrote the story. Would re-read scenes "Would I be happy with them reading that?" if not I didn't change the scene, just re-worded how I told it, so that it was friendlier. I think dark themes are important, as I love writing about dark themes and I try to handle them the right way.


My niece was the inspiration for one of the characters, so I knew she would be reading it, even though she wasn't in the target audience age group.


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

Writing/reading a "clean" adult horror story would be like cooking/eating food without spices. Almost every good (yes, subjective, I know) horror book I've read has violence, profanity (people don't say "gosh darn!" when they are being gutted), blood, death, gore, sex (if part of the story) and mayhem aplenty. Heck, a lot of good non-horror books I've read wouldn't be considered clean by some people's standards. Stephen King enjoys using profanity in creative ways in his stories and he's had plenty of readers.

Once I received a rejection from Pocket Books. The editor said *there wasn't enough gore *for his liking!

Ever since, when appropriate, I've upped the gore quotient.

(BTW, eerie aside: this is post # 666 for me at KB -- cue dramatic sound)


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Ian, I don't think denoting a book as 'clean' is absurd, and here's a big reason why - Readers want them.


Indeed, readers _do_ want them. I've gotten lots of feedback from readers who appreciate that I don't use profanity in my stories. That doesn't mean that all my characters are Goody-Two-Shoes...quite the contrary. BUT...when a character does use bad language, that's a time when I "tell, don't show." I see no necessity to give the reader a detailed account of what the character said other than to report the fact that he cursed.

And when there are love scenes between couples, I see no need to tell the reader everything that happens. Depicting the emotion involved is what's crucial to the story, not their physical actions.

As far as violence, I have depicted violent acts that were integral to the story. And I only "show" what's necessary to the story, otherwise, it happens off camera.


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

Mine are okay, I think, when it comes to things like Sex. Graphic language wise, I usually don't put too much in unless it should be called for. One author who writes clean is Melissa Smith for Cloud Guardian. It's almost downright cute.  I think Rusty Fischer writes fairly clean for his novels, but I've only read one of them.

Two of Dam Good's personal authors are, and the other two authors aren't.

I don't mind either way, I like clean and not clean. I'm a dirty and clean publisher. Just whatever is good.


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

It is hard to write clean books especially since we do not live in a clean society. I strive for PG 13 when I write. It is hard to write about soldiers without cursing and violence. All of the sex stuff though happens off scene just because I always worry my grandma might read it and that is on my list of most uncomfortable conversations ever.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

When I was writing a few of my books, I thought "This could be a bit too dark, a bit too hard, a bit too grimy".

And then I took a look at some of the contemporary YA out there and realised my books are mother-trucking Pollyanna by comparison.

Although I still expect complaints. I _always_ expect complaints


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't like the terms clean and dirty, either. 

I see cozy mystery, I know there won't be any gore. I see sweet romance, I know there won't be any sex.

How much swearing makes a book fall on the dirty side? Hell and damn are vulgarisms, not swearing in my opinion. If I say "cheese and crackers," it means Jesus Christ. If I say "shut the front door," it means ... well you know. So the words aren't there, but the meaning is, just sort of prettied up.

I've written sweet romances with no sex, but some lustful feelings. I've written lust filled stories with references to sex. I've written stories with only married sex. So, classify my work the way you want, but don't call me clean or dirty.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2011)

I write clean books. Only a few curse words in my YA. A couple of months ago, I was wondering if punching up the dialouge would make it more appealing to teens. My neice says she hears alot of cursing in the hallway at her middle school. I barely remember middle school  I'm way old.


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## Connor Nicolas (Aug 24, 2011)

The majority of my stuff (the stuff not written under my pen name that gets me blocked) is clean-_ish_ I suppose...it's not gratuitous. But then I don't live a "clean" life. But I've found that one person's "dirty" is another's "vanilla." If I wrote what I think of as clean, I wouldn't be writing in my authentic voice. Then it just sounds canned.


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## destill (Oct 5, 2010)

I have a thirteen-year-old granddaughter who reads my humor books. That's always in the back of my mind when I'm writing humor. 

My forthcoming novel, When Horses Had Wings, would probably earn a PG-13 rating (for language). The teen protagonist is married to a violent control freak. I've tried to avoid using the "F"-word, but the man swears.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

sarahcthewriter said:


> I write clean books. Only a few curse words in my YA. A couple of months ago, I was wondering if punching up the dialouge would make it more appealing to teens. My neice says she hears alot of cursing in the hallway at her middle school. I barely remember middle school  I'm way old.


Hey, I'm only 25 and I don't remember much about middle school. The only thing I remember about the hallways is that they banned any sort of physical affection, so we weren't even allowed to hug our friends or hold hands or anything. It was kind of annoying.

I think one of my reviews mentions something about it having a clean romance, which surprised me a little. I hadn't really thought about whether it was "clean" or not, but I can see how it would be classified that way. I read pretty much anything, and it's not something I pay a lot of attention to when I'm picking out a new book to read.


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## RonnellDPorter (Apr 20, 2010)

In real life I have a mouth like a sailor and a mind like a blocked septic tank; but The Trinity Saga is very clean and chaste. There are a few deaths scattered throughout the three books out so far, but nothing graphic and people are mourned, even the villains.

Now _I Was A Brooding Teenage Vampire_, on the other hand... That was rather graphic, and that's just because I needed to let loose and really write something that I could take anywhere I wanted to. And I also just really, really wanted to make fun of YA Vampire novels (The Trinity Saga included) 

The problem now is that people keep saying that it's a bit too close to Twilight & other books... That's sort of the point; pointing out how they're all basically the same formula.

Whatareyagonnado, eh?


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## AnnetteL (Jul 14, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I do keep my books clean, because I like to read clean books. I think we naturally write what we like to read. It's hard to find clean romance that isn't christian romance, so that's one reason I wrote Not What She Seems. I wanted a story that had some romance, some suspense, and a mystery.
> 
> Vicki


Precisely why I think Vicki's book has done so well--there aren't enough clean romances out there, and I think there's a big audience for it.

I've been with a small religious press for almost a decade before doing indie books, and they insisted on being squeaky clean (to the point that I had to argue to keep a "hell" that was a geographical/literary reference to Milton's _Paradise Lost_).

So yes, I'd say my books are very clean.

Not every genre and every story can be squeaky (genres like fantasy often end up with big battles, and good luck showing those w/out some blood and gore, for one).

But I do think that a lot of times writers just get lazy. Throwing in swear words or sex scenes in lazy.

For example--while having a serial killer go, "oh, shucks" sounds totally lame, there are often better ways of showing an evil villain than a string of expletives.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's a good website for those looking for clean reads: http://www.squeakycleanreads.com/

And I don't think anyone is saying one kind of book is better than another, or one kind will sell better than another. I know clean books that sell like hot cakes, and books that I wouldn't consider clean selling like hot cakes too. (Now I'm hungry...darn.)

But I do know that some people are looking for certain kinds of books, so whatever we do we should make sure the content of our books are well advertised. For instance, I have a knife on my book cover. That's letting people know there's a murder (or two) in the book. There's no half-naked people on the cover, so I'm guessing people don't think it's erotica. As long as we try our best to advertize what you get, we are going to appeal to our target audience.

Vicki


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Like others, I'd have to see your definition of clean. My cozy romance is clean IMO, but it has some damns. Most cozies are pretty clean when it comes to sex and violence, but a lot of them feature unmarried couples in relationships. Does that take them out of the clean category? Depends on the reader, doesn't it?


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## J.R.Mooneyham (Mar 14, 2011)

My very Puritanical mother has read all my supercar action/adventure books inspired by my real life youth, and mainly complained only about the language. And by this I mean there's a relatively small amount of cursing sprinkled throughout the books, mostly because the people I'm writing about talked that way during the period. Also, I try to give the reader a window into my own thoughts during dire or otherwise undesirable situations, and in those thoughts there was often some cursing involved (but surely everyone frequently thinks this way, even if they don't give voice to it?).

There is sex and violence in the books, but the sex is implicit rather than explicit, and I believe only once is some of the violence of the up close and graphic variety (unless you count some fairly intense bouncing around inside a car during extreme manuevering as violence too).

Victorine, thanks for the Squeaky Clean Reads url! I've sent it to my mom.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a disclaimer on _Spoil of War_'s description because of the sexual violence (rape and child molestation), which is on the page and quite frank and honest but not overly graphic or gratuitous (although that kind of depends on which reviewers you care to believe). Still, I had a revision letter from an agent who asked me to "sex it up." 

SECTOR C is PG-13. I would love it to be read by teens as well as adults. There are a handful of swear words and a minimal sex scene that isn't at all detailed. Lots of people die. Lots of animals die. People kill animals. Animals kill people. Disease kills them both. My ruler for the violence in the book: If you can tolerate the amount of dinosaur chomping that _Jurassic Park_ has, you'll be fine - mine has far less (chomping, that is. no dinos. but it DOES have -- well, just look at the cover). Was JP a "clean" book? If so, so's mine!


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## Seanathin23 (Jul 24, 2011)

I've never been able to write anything "clean" since I fall towards dark stories with gruff people who curse more then they probably should. Sex is a sliding scale depending how it fits in. I applaud people who can write a "Clean" book, though I probably never will, and I'm happy with that. 

As for Jurassic Park I wouldn't call it clean.


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## The Fussy Librarian (May 3, 2011)

I've written both extremely graphic stuff (under a different pen name) as well as profanity-free, sex-free stuff. There's a huge market for both and I'm at ease writing for either one of them. It's really all about what the story requires. 

When I watch movies I get irritated when films have violence and sex that's not needed to advance the story. It's insulting to my intelligence. That not to say I don't enjoy stuff that's has violence or sex when it's integral -- "Inglorious Basterds" and "Kill Bill" are two of my favorite films of the past decade. Just don't insult my intelligence by upping the body count (whether nude or dead) because you didn't construct an intelligence story.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I do keep my books clean, because I like to read clean books. I think we naturally write what we like to read.


Ditto.

I set out to write "clean" stories _per what I consider clean_, which still contains potentially objectionable content. I'm highly tolerant of violence, for example.

Still, I never take the Lord's name in vain, I use little if any offensive language, and I always endeavor to handle things tactfully. (I'm using "tactful" as opposed to "graphic" here; no offense meant to anyone.)

Because different people object to different things, I have an advisory page on my website that lists the content that others might take issue with in each story. "The Corpse Cat", for example, features cousins who are also lovers-which is legal in many localities, despite what some folks assume. I had one friend get squicked by that.

My website has advisories about what folks might not like about the stories, too. _Destiny's Kiss_, for example, has a d-- or two, and the narrator often cusses in Italian. But then, that book is also probably R-rated by definition, since the narrator (Destiny/Kismet) is a runaway sex slave. The sequel so far looks like it'll be lighter on the violence and a mite heavier on the language, but we'll see what happens.

Also, for the record, I never swear, and I know several others like me-though my younger brother isn't one of them.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> The bible has sexual acts and genocide, but its dealt with in *the right way*.





SimonSmithWilson said:


> I think dark themes are important, as I love writing about dark themes and I try to handle them *the right way*.





AnnetteL said:


> Not every genre and every story can be squeaky (genres like fantasy often end up with big battles, and good luck showing those w/out some blood and gore, for one).
> 
> But I do think that a lot of times writers just get lazy. *Throwing in swear words or sex scenes in lazy.*
> 
> For example--while having a serial killer go, "oh, shucks" sounds totally lame, there are often better ways of showing an evil villain than a string of expletives.


See, I consider making the choice to write stories with explicit depictions of sex and/or violence to be totally valid, and not a matter of doing something "the wrong way" or "being lazy". I've written romance, erotica, thrillers, speculative fiction, and, for lack of a better term, general fiction. Very few of the stories I've written would be considered clean. That's not because I'm lazy or don't know how to explore dark or adult topics "the right way", though. As suggested, not every story can be told in a clean way. And not every writer wants to attempt to tell clean stories.

I don't live in a "clean" world. My co-workers swear occasionally. Friends talk to me openly about sex and relationships. I read the news and learn about real terror and violence in the world. I prefer not to write clean stories because I honestly find most of them lacking a certain sense of realism, unless you're actually writing about an Amish character, or an otherwise religious character, or people living in a sort of squeaky-clean utopia that I've never experienced. The stories I want to tell just wouldn't be the same if I attempted to sanitize them. I honestly believe they wouldn't have the same impact.

I think it's great that there are authors out there writing books for all tastes. But I do think "clean" authors ought to try and resist labeling us "unclean" authors as lazy writers who don't know how to handle serious subjects the right way.


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## par2323 (Nov 22, 2010)

Like other cozy mystery authors who have responded to this thread, I prefer the books I read to be "clean" and I try to write books that are basically clean.  By that, I mean I prefer books that contain a minimal amount of swearing, graphic violence and explicit sex.  It doesn't mean that these things will prevent me from continuing to read a good book if I find them, but I'd rather they not be there. 

Patricia


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

AnnetteL said:


> But I do think that a lot of times writers just get lazy. *Throwing in swear words or sex scenes in lazy.*


I think that is a generalized statement that has no basis in fact.



flanneryohello said:


> I think it's great that there are authors out there writing books for all tastes. But I do think "clean" authors ought to try and resist labeling us "unclean" authors as lazy writers who don't know how to handle serious subjects the right way.


Well said.

My work here is done. Bye-bye.


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## Christine Kersey (Feb 13, 2011)

I write clean suspense. I love a good page-turner but I hate it when it is filled with unnecessary swearing and sex. I've chosen to leave out profanity and sex in my stories, but if other people choose to tell their story in other ways, that's fine. At the end of the day, the most important thing is a good story.


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

"_Throwing in swear words or sex scenes in lazy._"

I don't write sex scenes in my stories, but writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense. I know people who can't complete a sentence without adding in colorful language...and one of them worked in an office with me. I once worked in a factory for a stint and some of the women swore filthier than the men did. Swearing is a part of everyday life for a lot of people.

Now, that being said, "proper" use of foul language needs to make sense. It needs to come from a character for whom it sounds natural. And, it should never be used to shock. Most people don't swear to shock. Most swear because it's second nature, they don't know any better, or from surprise.

My 2 cents.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I think that is a generalized statement that has no basis in fact.
> 
> Well said.
> 
> My work here is done. Bye-bye.


Yikes. Lazy? "The right way"?

Wow.

There isn't a "right way" here. There's what works for you and your story. It doesn't mean one way is right and other wrong. They're choices and both are equally "right."


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> [on sex scenes & graphic language being "lazy"]
> 
> I think that is a generalized statement that has no basis in fact.


I'll contest that "no basis" as another, equally faulty, generalization.

All content that's tacked into the story for its own sake is lazy writing.
Some graphic content is content that's tacked into the story for its own sake.
Therefore, some graphic content is lazy writing.

Direct description and dialogue can be a lot easier to come up with than an interesting method of indirect writing. My first draft of _Destiny's Kiss_ had more d--s and even a f-- or two that proved unnecessary when I gave them a hard look.

Those of us who don't care for graphic sex or offensive language tend to be hypersensitive to them and their necessity. I personally tend to skip sex scenes in books, and usually the story still reads fine. Only rarely do I find myself scratching my head because something important happened in the scene I skipped.

Now, do I necessarily think that all those writers of skip-able sex scenes were "lazy"? Not necessarily, though I used to. It's taken exposure to different authors' arguments for why they include it to make me realize that there are more reasons for including graphic content than "I just want to include it!" or "The story demanded it!" For example, some writers make sure to include graphic content because they believe their audience requires and expects it. Which may or may not be true; I don't write for those audiences.


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## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

There is a bit of swearing, dirty humor and death in my book, so it probably wouldn't fit the definition of clean. My goal was to create a comedy sort of like Scrubs (in structure, not genre) where humor and drama were able to coexist. There aren't any sex scenes either. But right now I'm working on a serious fantasy that is pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum. Plenty of gore and sex to go around.

I think, at least in fantasy, descriptions of violence are used to give a scene credibility. With secondary worlds and magic rampant, something needs to be grounded in reality. The violence of battle can do that, though obviously some writers do go overboard with it.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

No. I set out to write a book with characters that felt real, who in the middle of a terrible, life changing situation, and when I was writing the dialog I allowed for curse words...because, IMO, there are times when adults swear--times when 'dang it all' wouldn't come across as organic.

Do I think using the f-word makes me a lazy writer? Nope. Sorry. I don't. It also doesn't speak to a stunted vocabulary, either. It was _the word_ that fit in the context of which I was using it, f*** made sense...cutting it, or replacing it would have felt forced.

My main character, a married woman, has sex with her husband--do I get graphic with it? No. It's the sort of scene that fades to black--but the reader knows they are getting it on. Why include it? Because, thats what couples do. Again, I tried to delve into the real, intimate, personal lives of imaginary people.

But, none of that, and again this just my opinion, makes my book "dirty"...I wanted it to feel true--as though you step into this woman's life during a bitterly painful time. I don't write erotica, and my next work may be darker than my first, but only time will tell. However, I can say that, no matter what jogs out of my wonderings next, I will commit myself to telling the story like I did the first time, f-word and all.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

This was always going to be a controversial post, despite the OP's qualification. 

Many writers craft their work in different genres and styles, so of course some will write books that pander to their own sensibilities which will find an audience with like minded readers. I find it offensive when people call others Lazy, because their style does not suit their own moral sensibilities.

All I would say is I don't write feel good fiction, I write fiction, as in I write about the real world and how real people interact in this world and I don't hide from it. I am not lazy as a writer. Some people will like my work ... some won't. Build a bridge and get over it.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

I also have to add that there is nothing "lazy" about writing a good sex scene. Honestly, it's not easy to do without sounding mechanical or silly and while still making it compelling and relevant to the overall story. Often the love scenes are the most challenging of my entire story. I know many writers who avoid writing such scenes not because they're offended by the idea, but rather because they feel they can't write them well. 

Honestly, calling anyone's writing "lazy" is pretty offensive. Writing, by its nature, is hard work. If you're toiling to craft a solid novel, you are not lazy...whether you're writing clean, dirty, cliche, or whatever. Lazy, to me, is plagiarism.


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

As a reader, I don't care as long as the author is telling a good story and is true to the characters. For example, I can't recall a single expletive or hint of sex in the entire Hunger Games trilogy, yet I was absolutely riveted. In hindsight, there were a few passages where a tactful expletive may have felt more authentic to me, but keeping in mind the target audience (YA), I let my imagination fill in the blanks. On the other hand, if I'm reading a gritty military thriller, I expect at least some of the characters to throw up a solid wall of f***, sh**, and every other word our mothers taught us not to say, because that's how most of the soldiers I know speak.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> Am I in a minority? I know there are kids authors here, but does anyone write clean adult books too? Would be interesting to see.


All my books are for adults but I don't think I've ever written anything I'd be uncomfortable with my kids reading (once they're old enough to read at all). I'll occasionally write a murder scene or something but nothing excessively gory.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> I sort of have to disagree. I mean there shouldn't this is clean, this is unclean. I think common sense comes into play. Like I mentioned in my reply above. You can handle very dark themes. The bible has sexual acts and genocide, but its dealt with in the right way. It gets points across. *I think the only graphic scene I read in the bible is when one of them gets scalped*.


Is this a serious statement, or a joke?


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## BuddyGott (Feb 4, 2011)

For my first novel, The Dead Dentists Club, I'm trying to keep it fairly "clean." All sex scenes are behind closed doors and all cursing is pretty tame. In an earlier draft, I used the f-word a few times, but then I realized I didn't need to.

There's some murders and other violence, but I'm still striving for a PG13 rating.


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## soyfrank (Feb 2, 2011)

There's probably a few "clean" pages or so in my books.


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## Pamela Kay Noble Brown (Mar 3, 2011)

I consider my books clean books.  Admittedly they do involve some rather dark themes (domestic violence, human-trafficking), but these themes are explored, rather than glorified.  I do classify them as adult, pg-13, etc., depending on the forum on which I post them to reflect that, although clean (no gratuitous sex, no swearing), I do not recommend them for teens.  The subject matter is strictly adult.

Pamela


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

SAMulraney said:


> I don't write sex scenes in my stories, but writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense.


SAMulraney,

Please know I don't mean to single you out here, honestly.

But I've seen this rationalization tossed out by writers who "turn the volume up to 11" quite a bit, and I want to just say my piece on the rationalization.

Before I do, let me qualify what I'm about to say...

Frankly, I don't care much how any individual writers choose to present their stories. The audiences out there are vast enough that if some want to write clean, and others want to write gritty, and others want to write somewhere in between, my blessings on you all. I'm not a person who thinks his taste preferences have to be met by every author in every book. How boring would that be?

That being said...

"Writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense," is just about the creatively lamest, laziest statement I've read several hundred times on these boards.

It suggests that we, the author, are not in ultimate control of what we write or how we write it, which is just hogwash.

Are there people in the world who cuss, who have sex, who do violent things? Sure. Absolutely. I don't think anyone's questioning that.

But there are many levels of choice involved in acknowledging that.

So-called "clean" writers can choose to not write about such characters.

Or, they can write about such characters with modesty. (See my example in a previous post about handling profanity in narration, rather than dialog. Ember swore, vs. "#()( you!" Ember said.)

Or they can allow what they, as writers, personally deem to be "gentler" profanity. (Dang it vs. G-----n!)

Grittier writers can even have several levels of shading to them. Some don't mind profanity, but still do "boots at the bedside" when it comes to sex.

Others allow profanity and violence but draw the line and sex.

Some go all-out gritty.

And you know what?

All those choices are just fine. And there are audiences who will love those works and what they present.

But in point of fact, let's not pretend that we, the authors, are not in control, or are on auto-pilot. That's just dishonest.

If we're savvy and wise, we do what John Locke suggests: we profile our "ideal" readers. Extensively. What they like. What they don't. What they'll tolerate. What will make them put down a book and never pick it up again.

And then we write very intentionally and specifically to that ideal reader/audience.

If that means writing clean, because that's what our ideal reader wants, we write clean.

If we gritty it up a bit, or a lot, it's because that's what our ideal reader wants, and we write to a greater level of grittiness.

And it's all okay. We're all writers, doing the same thing, for different ideal readers.

But if we're smart, we are in total control... so let's not pretend otherwise.


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## LauraDenior (Jun 22, 2011)

I think (as others have noted) there's a huge market for squeaky clean books.

In fact, my mom emailed me this article a couple months ago. It's all about Mary Higgins Clark's formula for success: squeaky clean books.



> Here are some things you'll never find in a Mary Higgins Clark novel: an unmarried couple living together, a curse word, a body hacked to pieces. By today's standards, Ms. Clark's thrillers are quaint throwbacks, more in the Agatha Christie mold than the blood-curdling, titillating fare produced by best-selling writers such as James Patterson and Stieg Larsson.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704461304576216892997147466.html


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

I thought that the OP would be complaining about all the erotica posts lately, but I was pleasantly surprised to find out I was wrong--the OP was very balanced, and I liked the question.

Yes, I do write "clean" stuff...depending on your definition of clean--but not under this pen name.  Some people might not consider my other stuff clean but it's much cleaner than my Juliette Dupree stuff.  I'd like to publish some very clean romance some day, and also try my hand at YA.  And if I do, it will be very clean YA.  

Until then I'm writing "slightly dirty"...meaning extremely sexy mainstream erotic romance.   Oh, and the other stuff that's "mostly-kinda-clean" (under other pen names).


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

If a reader wants to read books which don't contain certain combinations of letters and in which aspects of human sexuality are left out that's all well and good, but to me it says more about the reader (nothing bad, of course) than the writer.  

Like everything else, it all comes down to the skill of the writer.  I've read cozy mysteries and sweet romances that were done brilliantly.  Annette's "At the Water's Edge", which I think fits in the "clean" category, has a cast of deep characters and a compelling story.  But I've also read some sterile stories in these categories in which the adults are basically 9 year-olds who have jobs and drive cars.  Same for "dirty" books.  It appears that bad language, violence and sex are sometimes thrown in not to advance a story line but to make a thriller thrill and a horror horr.  On the other hand, it could be argued that some characters could seem mutated if certain behaviors and language are shied away from by the author.  

In my view, writing "clean" isn't harder than writing "dirty," or vice versa.  It takes skill to do it well either way.

For the record, all my YA books are "clean."  Not because I've made any value judgment about it, but because I don't think it's my place to introduce some of our societal taboos to other people's kids. 

My grown-up books are less "clean"...


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## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

I won't write books my kids can't read


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

No.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

ChristopherDavidPetersen said:


> I won't write books my kids can't read


Chris, I'm curious about this. Is this a question of ethics for you? Do you think there is something immoral about writers who don't follow this rule? I'm not attacking you, I'm just honestly curious because I know you're a cool dude.

I'd hate to think you had a magnificent book in your head that you wouldn't write because your daughter (hypothetical, of course) is only 6. This hypothetical 6 year-old probably can't understand world politics or Eastern philosophy. Would you refrain from writing a book involving those as well, based on this rule?

Will you slip bad language, sex and violence into your books as your children mature? I swear I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just examining your position from as many angles as I can...


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## jmoralee (Sep 6, 2011)

I don't mind reading books that contain "bad" language - but I prefer to avoid it in my own writing.  It can usually be avoided with a little thought, which often improves the scenes that I write.

One of my favourite crime authors - James Hadley Chase - wrote about bad people doing bad things without needing to use any swearing - so I like to do the same.  Most of the pulp fiction from the 1930s-1940s had to be written without bad language - but many writers still produced hard-boiled, noir fiction that still looks fresh today.  Their work was definitely aimed at adults, though it would get a PG rating today.

I don't use swearwords unless I drop something heavy on my toes.

Then I invent several brand-new ones.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Whichever side you come down to you'll find a readers for both.  For some this is a "marketing decision" for others an "author preference".  Both have merits so align yourself with what "works for you".

For Michael's Riyria Revelations many people say his books are written for adults but have a YA feel - because he kept them very PG-13 but has adult main characters.  For him, it was just "writing what he likes to read." It has ended up having a very positive sales effect as many people have commented on how they like how "clean they are" but it wasn't a goal just happy serendipity.


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities,

Is it soo late to amend my line with "to me" at the end (...writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense...*to me*)? While I agree that we, as authors, have the final say in what reaches the page, I think that censorship is always a conscious choice.

"*Writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense*, is just about the creatively lamest, laziest statement I've read several hundred times on these boards."

I'm not sure how this can be qualified as creatively lame or lazy. It's my opinion. When I write a story, it makes sense for certain characters to swear. That's just how it is for me. It reflects the reality of my life. I know people who swear like it's their job. I know people who've never dropped an f bomb in their life. I write based on what I know. In my book, one character in particular takes great relish in swearing a blue streak. I don't take any dialogue lightly, let alone profanity. In my stories, it has it's place and I use it when I feel the timing and character are right. You make some valid points, but to assume a level of laziness based on a particular way a writer chooses to characterize is too broad a generalization.

When I write dialogue, I empathize with my character and try and hear what they are saying. Last year, I finished a YA/MG novel in which the worst "bad" word was damn (or crap). At the end of that book, the father loses his daughter in a kidnapping. He rages at the other characters and I found it very difficult to write his dialogue without dropping an oath or two. To write "He swore," rings untrue to the moment. It doesn't reflect the absolute terror, fear, and anger being conveyed at that moment as strongly as I feel straight dialogue would. I felt like his fury was muted because I can imagine how it would feel. I know I would be unconsolable and probably cursing a storm.

That's just me though. Creatively lazy and lame, I guess.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

As a reader, when I see a curse word replaced by some cutesy word like gosh darn it, I laugh and that book gets put down.
I mean we all know what is suppose to be there. A curse is a curse. Its just letters made into words. To replace or should I say bleep I find a little hypocritical. If you are going to put anything in it, have the balls to just do it then. 

Bleeping something does not make it any "cleaner" (I hate that word) than just going with it. 

It's like watching "The InBetweeners" on BBC America where they bleep it so much I am making a game of trying to read the lips.  . Wow, words and sex. Watch out humans. But at 7pm, lets have some guys heads blown up, okey dokey  

Thankfully people start tagging stuff more. So when someone marks something "clean", everyone knows what they are getting and I can move on to something else. And those that want that stuff can also find it that way.


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Thankfully people start tagging stuff more. So when someone marks something "clean", everyone knows what they are getting and I can move on to something else.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Atunah said:


> As a reader, when I see a curse word replaced by some cutesy word like gosh darn it, I laugh and that book gets put down.
> I mean we all know what is suppose to be there. A curse is a curse. Its just letters made into words. To replace or should I say bleep I find a little hypocritical. If you are going to put anything in it, have the balls to just do it then.
> 
> Bleeping something does not make it any "cleaner" (I hate that word) than just going with it.
> ...


*off to tag all my books as "dirty"*


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I believe that sex, swearing and violence should be included as the story demands it. And unlike what some of the advocates of clean books believe, some stories require sex and violence and swearing. 

For example, a sex scene and a violent murder/fight scene is not gratuitous, if it reveals something about the characters (and characters reveal a lot of themselves during sex, because they are vulnerable and not entirely in control) or furthers the plot. And some characters just swear a lot, while others only swear in exceptional circumstances and some don't swear at all. And if you have a character whose every second word begins with an f, should you not write them as they are? Or should you not write about such characters at all, because their existence might offend someone else's notions of propriety? As long as the sex and the swearing and the violence are not gratuitous, it can't be called lazy writing. 

Besides, I come from a culture which is far more relaxed with regard to sex, swearing, nudity and alcohol than the US and has stricter standards with regard to violence and illegal drugs. Quite often, things that offend the more sensitive US readers don't even register on my radar at all, e.g. I don't view "damn" as problematic in any way. And of course it's very telling that the discussion has shifted very quickly to sex and swearing, while ignoring the issue of violence. And frankly, excessive violence annoys me far more often than excessive swearing (which only bothers me if it doesn't fit the context, e.g. characters in a fantasy world based on Renaissance Italy constantly accusing each other of having sex with their mothers) or excessive sex, which only bothers me when it's badly written.

My own work covers a broad range from "clean" to "includes sex, violence and bad words". If a piece contains something that might trouble sensitive readers, I put a warning in the description. I wish Amazon had the option to assign a heat and violence rating like AllRomance ebooks and some other smaller vendors. This makes it easier for readers to know what they're getting and for authors to clearly label their work.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Bleeping something does not make it any "cleaner" (I hate that word) than just going with it.
> 
> It's like watching "The InBetweeners" on BBC America where they bleep it so much I am making a game of trying to read the lips. . Wow, words and sex. Watch out humans. But at 7pm, lets have some guys heads blown up, okey dokey


Bleeping drives me mad. Just put it on after the watershed and slap a "Not suitable for younger audiences" label on it and let us adults watch as we please.

That's also why I watch the original British versions, if possible, because that way I get the show as it was meant to be seen, swearing, sex and all. Never mind that something like _Misfits_ or _The Inbetweeners_ doesn't work nearly as well with anything remotely offensive cut out.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> My own work covers a broad range from "clean" to "includes sex, violence and bad words". If a piece contains something that might trouble sensitive readers, I put a warning in the description. I wish Amazon had the option to assign a heat and violence rating like AllRomance ebooks and some other smaller vendors. This makes it easier for readers to know what they're getting and for authors to clearly label their work.


I do think letting the buyer know what they're getting is the key here. Maybe some day we will have ratings for books like movies do. I would applaud that.

Vicki


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Bleeping drives me mad. Just put it on after the watershed and slap a "Not suitable for younger audiences" label on it and let us adults watch as we please.
> 
> That's also why I watch the original British versions, if possible, because that way I get the show as it was meant to be seen, swearing, sex and all. Never mind that something like _Misfits_ or _The Inbetweeners_ doesn't work nearly as well with anything remotely offensive cut out.


Yeah, I wish they would show the original. Only get BBC America here. I gave up watching that show, its useless and laughable, but not in a good way, with all the bleeps. Heck I notices even on regular channels they start bleeping movies. Its even worse, they edit a different word in spoken by someone else obviously. But they leave in the murders, the blood, the violence. 
And don't even get me started on the fear of the female nipple in the US. The nipple will be society's downfall. Yep, mark my words .


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## AnnaM (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't know what you mean by clean.  If you mean no sex, then TAKEDOWN fits the bill. There's violence (murders), but it's not graphic violence.

There are many sweet, Christian romances out there, and they are very popular.


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## Val2 (Mar 9, 2011)

My books are clean, only because they are mostly cook books, apparently I have no imagination other than for food! Guess I'll have to rely on you guys for the 'other' stuff!


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> "Writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense," is just about the creatively lamest, laziest statement I've read several hundred times on these boards.
> 
> It suggests that we, the author, are not in ultimate control of what we write or how we write it, which is just hogwash.


Craig, I don't believe that he was suggesting that he's literally not "in control" of his characters, but rather that certain types of characters wouldn't make sense without cursing. And I agree completely. If I was writing a war story about a unit of combat soldiers (let's say in modern-day Afghanistan), and not one of those soldiers swore, ever, the story simply would not come across realistically. Yes, there are people in the world who don't curse. Maybe there's a soldier in this unit who refuses to use swear words, but chances are, it's something that draws teasing from his buddies. *That* is realistic. Depicting a group of battle-hardened men from different backgrounds who never drop an f-bomb or take the Lord's name in vain, even when they're pinned down by snipers or lose a man to an IED? No way. I wouldn't believe it for a second, and neither would _anyone_ who has ever been in the military.

It's not that anyone is claiming that authors aren't in control of their characters, but rather that certain characters (military, hardened criminals, mobsters, roughnecks, longshoremen, etc.) simply wouldn't be believable without their characteristic tendency toward colorful language. While I think it would be interesting to write a "clean" version of one of these characters, if their cohorts were similarly sanitized, the story would read as utterly farcical.


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## Jean E (Aug 29, 2011)

Yes Simon.  I have written only one book, so far, and it is a clean one.  When I started out I had no idea what world would emerge in the wake of the cursor as it moved across the screen but I know I wanted it to be a world where community meant something, were danger was real and where individual journeys culminated in the realization that that world is complex and that there are no simple answers.  
  
I wanted humour and suspense and I think I have achieved that.  I did not set out to write for children, though the nature of my book lends itself to a audience of older children, I want adults to read it too.  As I have said, this was my first book and from it I have learned that I want to keep writing books that can be read by anyone who can read english and moreover, be enjoyed by that readership.  I don't want my books to reflect the trouble in the world or excite a sexual or romantic response.  I want to get to the beating heart of humanity and celebrate the courage therein which, I think, is too often left unsung.

Thanks for asking.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

daveconifer said:


> I'd hate to think you had a magnificent book in your head that you wouldn't write because your daughter (hypothetical, of course) is only 6. This hypothetical 6 year-old probably can't understand world politics or Eastern philosophy. Would you refrain from writing a book involving those as well, based on this rule?
> 
> Will you slip bad language, sex and violence into your books as your children mature? I swear I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just examining your position from as many angles as I can...


My children are adults who have children of their own. But I don't write things I'd be ashamed to have any of them read. I don't personally use profanity, so I don't write it (and lest you get the idea that I've led a cloistered life and haven't been exposed to such language, I'll tell you...my husband is a retired sailor. I've heard it all. But I don't enjoy hearing it, don't enjoy reading it, so I don't write it).

And, beyond the issue of profanity, there are ways to disclose most aspects of human behavior in stories in ways that aren't demeaning. I've not shied away from writing any story...including ones with negative issues like war, fighting, rape, torture, greed, lust...but I think, at least I _hope_, that I've written them in such a way that the story's meaning comes through without a lot of unnecessary baggage (like profanity or scenes that stimulate and titillate).

But beyond the consideration of not wanting to write such things, I think our entertainment sources have been permeated with profanity and saturated with sex and violence for so long now that many folks are getting bored with it. I don't find such things offensive...I just find them terribly boring. And as a writer, that's one thing I definitely don't want to be...boring.


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## Elizabeth Black (Apr 8, 2011)

I write erotica and erotic romances that are both edgy and boundary-breaking so, no, I don't normally write "clean". I have a sweet romance (no sex) available for free on my web site that I liked writing but I find the smuttier stuff gets a better following. I think the edgier stuff is more popular now but there is a market for the cleaner stuff.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Yeah, I wish they would show the original. Only get BBC America here. I gave up watching that show, its useless and laughable, but not in a good way, with all the bleeps. Heck I notices even on regular channels they start bleeping movies. Its even worse, they edit a different word in spoken by someone else obviously. But they leave in the murders, the blood, the violence.
> And don't even get me started on the fear of the female nipple in the US. The nipple will be society's downfall. Yep, mark my words .


I once saw a bleeped out version of _The Wire_. It sounded as if all characters had been dubbed by the Roadrunner, beep - beep - beep.

I don't get the nipple fear either. If you find yourself asking whether a painted female nipple on a more than hundred year old painting is acceptable for a book cover, you know it's bad.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

My books are 96.4 percent clean.  In all of White Seed I have one expletive, oh, two actually.  And I wrote Carl Melcher so that my own kids could read it without being bombarded with the f-word constantly.  I saw it as a challenge.


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## EGranfors (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, I do.  My YA is exceptionally clean.  "Stairs" has some vocab and sensuality but absolutely nothing explicit.  I still write with my mom in my head telling me "you can't say that."  I know, I know, time to ditch the inner voices, but my YA is one that classroom teachers love to recommend!  That's cool.  e


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## Vanessa Wu (Sep 5, 2011)

I think your question's a very pertinent one, Simon. In England some of the most successful thriller writers of all time have been those who wrote family-friendly books. Even in this day and age some people still prefer books without sex and violence. These things can cheapen a book and make it embarrassing to recommend to friends.

Books can be both exciting and modern without being dirty. Example author: Lee Child.

On the other hand, dirty books can be dirty without being shameful. Example author: Marguerite Duras.


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## drewschmidt (Jun 4, 2011)

I know my wife set out to write YA books that were clean in nature. She is not against books that aren't clean or anything, but that is not what she wanted to write. She also gave her characters old fashioned morals. Characters that decided not to have sex outside of marriage and items like that. I'm sure some people hate those ideals and think they are old fashioned. Yet we feel otherwise.


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> Craig, I don't believe that he was suggesting that he's literally not "in control" of his characters, but rather that certain types of characters wouldn't make sense without cursing. And I agree completely. If I was writing a war story about a unit of combat soldiers (let's say in modern-day Afghanistan), and not one of those soldiers swore, ever, the story simply would not come across realistically. Yes, there are people in the world who don't curse. Maybe there's a soldier in this unit who refuses to use swear words, but chances are, it's something that draws teasing from his buddies. *That* is realistic. Depicting a group of battle-hardened men from different backgrounds who never drop an f-bomb or take the Lord's name in vain, even when they're pinned down by snipers or lose a man to an IED? No way. I wouldn't believe it for a second, and neither would _anyone_ who has ever been in the military.
> 
> It's not that anyone is claiming that authors aren't in control of their characters, but rather that certain characters (military, hardened criminals, mobsters, roughnecks, longshoremen, etc.) simply wouldn't be believable without their characteristic tendency toward colorful language. While I think it would be interesting to write a "clean" version of one of these characters, if their cohorts were similarly sanitized, the story would read as utterly farcical.


^ This. I write about oversexed, overpaid rock musicians. Swearing and smut comes with the job. That being said, certain band members swear more than others, and they each have their favourite phrases. Some other characters they interact with don't swear at all. However, the ones in their working environment swear; that's just how it is.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

wow @ the question, although not really because to my utter amazement I did discover early on in my indie author life, that most indies are writing erotica.  erm!

My first three books are all non-fiction and obviously squeaky clean hence.  I then published a short story titled "Arranged Marriage" which is based on true events.  I sought reviews for it and most people connected the word "marriage" with erotica.  Not to put down those who wrote erotica, to each their own, but I do not see myself writing about physical experiences.  Profanity is a big no-no too.  My mother gets to read the first draft and that should pretty much sum up the clean-o-meter of my books.

I hear you!  Because I too am aiming to write good, memorable literature, which makes people think and then gain perspective.


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## Elijah Joon (Mar 11, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> ...I remember a Jackie Chain interview (forgive my reference!) but he said, which I agree, you can have a action packed violent movie without showing all the gory details and in fact turn a tense situation, which makes a point, into a more reader friendly situation where you touch on the subject without going dark.


Nice topic worthy of discussion in this modern age, Simon... but I think you meant "Jackie *Chan*" -- "Jackie *Chain*" is a hardcore underground gangsta rap artist that promotes the opposite of what you are aiming for. Quoting him in that case would run contrary to the subject of pro-clean content works, LOL.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

I don't write anything I wouldn't want my kids, ages 7 up to 17, to read.  The books I read as a kid were "clean" and these are the ones that stick with me, still.  As an adult, I've read many different types of books. (no erotica, though.  Sorry guys!  Just not my thing.)  Some of the books do have violence/sex in them, however, it usually feels right for the particular story.  I guess, in my opinion, be true to your story and your story will take you where it needs to go.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

SAMulraney said:


> CraigInTwinCities,
> 
> Is it soo late to amend my line with "to me" at the end (...writing certain characters without them swearing just doesn't make sense...*to me*)? While I agree that we, as authors, have the final say in what reaches the page, I think that censorship is always a conscious choice.
> 
> ...


Glad to see the smiley at the end, there, but this is what I was worried about when I posted; SAMulraney, the comment was not personally directed toward you... you were just the most recent person to use that rationalization, and I finally decided to say my piece on the rationalization itself. Not about you personally. 

Here's a briefer version of what I was trying to communicate.

Instead of justifying our use (or not) of gritty content as "creative freedom" or "it's just the only way character X makes sense" or whatever (believe me, many people cite this rationale... hundreds) ...

... why not just be more honest about it, and admit it's part of our marketing and audience focus?

Some folks select a target readership that don't mind gritty content.

Some folks select a target readership that do.

Nothing bad about wherever on the scale anyone falls. But it's a lot more honest to put it that way.

"Hey, my readers don't mind a little profanity, a little sex, so long as the story moves forward and is fun. If you mind, that's fine, it just means you're not among my target audience."

Simplifies things, and takes the judgment out of it, in a way. No matter whether we're targeting readers who like it clean or gritty, we're all just doing what writers are supposed to do: keeping their readers happy and meeting their expectations.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Well, I didn't even try to make mine clean, although most of my infractions are bad language. I sorta think books, movies, songs, theater -- it's all about saying what you can't say to the drone in the next cubicle. So anything goes -- but that doesn't everyone, or even anyone, will like it.


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## Elijah Joon (Mar 11, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> Well, I didn't even try to make mine clean, although most of my infractions are bad language. I sorta think books, movies, songs, theater -- it's all about saying what you can't say to the drone in the next cubicle. So anything goes -- but that doesn't everyone, or even anyone, will like it.


Co-sign.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

flanneryohello said:


> Craig, I don't believe that he was suggesting that he's literally not "in control" of his characters, but rather that certain types of characters wouldn't make sense without cursing. And I agree completely. If I was writing a war story about a unit of combat soldiers (let's say in modern-day Afghanistan), and not one of those soldiers swore, ever, the story simply would not come across realistically. Yes, there are people in the world who don't curse. Maybe there's a soldier in this unit who refuses to use swear words, but chances are, it's something that draws teasing from his buddies. *That* is realistic. Depicting a group of battle-hardened men from different backgrounds who never drop an f-bomb or take the Lord's name in vain, even when they're pinned down by snipers or lose a man to an IED? No way. I wouldn't believe it for a second, and neither would _anyone_ who has ever been in the military.
> 
> It's not that anyone is claiming that authors aren't in control of their characters, but rather that certain characters (military, hardened criminals, mobsters, roughnecks, longshoremen, etc.) simply wouldn't be believable without their characteristic tendency toward colorful language. While I think it would be interesting to write a "clean" version of one of these characters, if their cohorts were similarly sanitized, the story would read as utterly farcical.


Flannery,

Again, my post wasn't about the specific choices an author makes, but in speaking more honestly about why we make the choices we do. It's about meeting the expectations and desires of our target audience, not because "it doesn't make sense without."

There are plenty of stories in the wide world about characters in "rough" professions who don't speak coarsely in the course of the story. Just to cite a RECENT example, the new movie INSIDE OUT is about an ex-con trying to put his life back together after being paroled, even though everyone around him expects him to mess up again and be back in jail in no time. The makers of the film targeted a PG-13 audience and from what I can tell (haven't seen it yet) the language in it is relatively clean. That was a marketing choice, by the filmmakers. Their theme is one targeted at teens, so they held the content at a level that would draw a PG-13 rating. While I have little doubt that main character Arlo Jayne (Paul Levesque) is a character who cussed a lot in prison, they crafted a storyline that left out scenes that would necessitate that.

Why? To serve their target audience.

If they'd had a more adult-themed movie, I'm sure the same character could have been cussing left and right. That's fine, too. Again, it's to serve the target audience.

It's about choices, and making those choices to serve a target audience. My characters will swear, sometimes. I just don't quote them; I write "Ember swore" or something. Because that's what my target audience feels comfortable with. So there are ways to handle things... what choices we make should be about serving the target audiences we choose.

This is, really, my only point. I'm not making moral judgments about content... I'm saying we need to be smarter when talking about why we make the content choices we make.

If our target audience is 8-year-old kids at a Jewish summer camp, we don't want to fill our stories with Nazis who cuss and rape-and-kill people and such. It'd be completely wrong-headed, and have parents justly up in arms.

If the story someone wants to tell is about Nazis who cuss and rape people, they need a different target audience.

If they want their target to be those 8-year-old summer campers, they need a different story... or to tell the story in a way a bit more sensitive to that target audience.

I mean... let's say President Barack Obama commissions you to write a stage play for a one-time-only performance at the White House.

Do you craft a story about heroic Republicans standing up to evil Democrats, left over from the Reagan era? Nope. You make the Dems the heroes and the GOP the bad guys. Because of who your audience is. (And, considering it's a White House staging... you probably leave out all your best fart jokes!  )

So that's my point. We need to view content choices on a target-audience/serving our target audience plane; not on a "some content is clean, other content is gritty" plane.

It sets us all on an even playing field, no matter what we write. We're all just writers serving different target audiences.


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## GayleC (Feb 16, 2011)

Okay, I just gotta say, I don't have a target audience in mind when I write. I have my characters, who are involved in a storyline. Before the story begins, I write journals of all my characters. I give them all a childhood, marital status, a system of core beliefs. When I start writing the story, my characters must obey the boundaries I have given them from journaling. It's not that I'm not in control of them; it's that I must keep them within their rules.

That being said, when I wrote my first mystery, FREEZER BURN, I had a couple of characters who were of pretty dubious moral fiber. They each used the F-word once, because anything else wouldn't have fit in that scene. When people ask about it, I offer the info freely. It's cost me a couple of sales, but it's gained me the respect of someone who knows I won't try to dupe them.

In my next mystery, HIT OR MISSUS, my cast of characters was a little more upscale. In the real world, I know those folks swear like pirates, but I wanted their lack of profanity to symbolize their position in the community. So no F-bombs. (My short story, CLEAN SWEEP, is the same way.)

My stories are more cozies than noir, no graphic violence or sex (you know what they're doing, but I give them their privacy), and have gotten good reviews. My "target audience" is whoever likes to have a fun little romp through a mystery.


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## Cliff Ball (Apr 10, 2010)

Everything I write is clean. No swear words, no sex, heck there's not even any hint of romance! lol  If one of my characters swear, I just say something to the effect that they let out a string of profanities.

I do that because I don't like reading novels where the character's every other word is a cuss word, and I end up editing it in my head. I really don't think it's necessary to have anyone cuss, but that's just my preference.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

My books have minimal sex scenes and some ripe language, which fits the situations my characters are in. Teresa Burrell writes excellent mystery/thrillers with no strong language or sex - very clean: http://tinyurl.com/3ua9xh6


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't have a target audience in mind when I write either. I have the characters in mind and the story and I write what's best for them. Audience doesn't figure into it until later.

That said, someone who is upset at the occasional swearword or a non-gratuitous sex scene or the fact that the people having sex are not married or who feel squicked out by the occasional violent moment is obviously not part of my target audience. Which is okay by me, there are plenty of other books out there. 

Like I said above, I always put a warning about potentially objectionable content in my book description, so readers can make an informed choice whether to read the book or not.


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## John Y. Jones (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm not sure how mine would rate.  A fair bit of fighting, some blood drawn, and a handful of deaths but none of it was gratuitous.  No sex, either.

Would that qualify?


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

For those who don't currently write with a target audience in mind:

Read "How I Sold 1 Million eBooks In 5 Months" by John Locke.

It'll change your life.  And more importantly, your results.


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## soyfrank (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't, but I did put a warning label in the product description of my short story book, so those who aren't interested or might be offended.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> I was just reading several posts on the forum from today and a few days back about erotic books being removed, violent books being removed and I noticed a large portion of the talking points are about violent or books of a sexual nature.


Really? Certain books being removed from Amazon or from Kindle?


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> For those who don't currently write with a target audience in mind:
> 
> Read "How I Sold 1 Million eBooks In 5 Months" by John Locke.
> 
> It'll change your life.  And more importantly, your results.


I don't write with a target audience in mind, either. I write because I have stories to tell. I tell them as honestly as I can. Because the world as I experience it is rarely "clean", neither are the stories I tell.

Keep in mind, not everyone writes simply to earn the most money possible by targeting a specific market. Many of us are storytellers first, and people selling a product second.


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## Skate (Jan 23, 2011)

My adult fantasy has no real violence, sex or swearing in it. I didn't set out to make it that way, it was just the way it came out. My characters and the society they were in didn't fit having those things in. In fact when, at one stage, I had my MC react to a situation by kicking his attacker where it hurt, my critiquers all came back at me, saying, "He wouldn't do that!" So I wrote it out.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> Because the world as I experience it is rarely "clean", neither are the stories I tell.


That's where I am as well. This world is far from "clean". I understand that a lot of people don't want to touch anything remotely "dirty" in this society, but the fact of life is, it surrounds all of us. No matter where you live, just down the road in one direction or the other are things going on that you may not want to think about, but that doesn't make them any less true. Whether it be a drug deal or incest, something is happening. To deny that, to me, is running from reality. So how can I tell stories that don't reflect reality? Then, to me, they aren't believable. You can still "escape from reality" with a story that reflects reality.


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Glad to see the smiley at the end, there, but this is what I was worried about when I posted; SAMulraney, the comment was not personally directed toward you... you were just the most recent person to use that rationalization, and I finally decided to say my piece on the rationalization itself. Not about you personally.


I understood that, and I "tried" not to take it personally. However, you did lump me into a generalization, so I felt it necessary to "defend" myself. No harm, no foul.



> Instead of justifying our use (or not) of gritty content as "creative freedom" or "it's just the only way character X makes sense" or whatever (believe me, many people cite this rationale... hundreds) ...
> 
> ... why not just be more honest about it, and admit it's part of our marketing and audience focus?
> 
> ...


I Hope, for your sake, that you write for yourself first and your audience second. Am I out to write an enteratining story? Of course. But, I'm also writing my story. I'm still new to the self-publishing game, so maybe I don't feel pressured by my audience, because I haven't built one yet. But, I hope I never let that affect what I write to the degree that I'm thinking about it as I write. I learned a long time ago to imagine that no one would ever read what I'm writing. It allows me to lift the restrictions I might place on myself by thinking that my writing might offend someone. The audience will find the book and vice versa. The author shouldn't be concerned with their audience because it may not be who they think it should be. I bet Stephen King didn't write Firestarter of Tommyknockers with a 14-year-old boy in mind for his audience. But, that's when I read them. When my "audience" starts dictating what words I put on paper, that's the day I stop writing books.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

Some of my books are fairly clean, but sometimes I go quite dark.  For instance, my novel-in-progress, which I hope to have come out on Halloween, is pretty clean.  Some mentions of sex, but nothing regarding my MC at all--and he actually is a little shy around things like that.  But there are also darker things like a rebellion that involves murdering people--he's trying to stop it.  And slavery of a magical nonhuman humanoid--my MC is against slavery ;-).  Despite some clean touches--like little to no mentions of sex and none of the violence is graphic--it still deals with troubling themes.  But my goal though when writing isn't to produce a clean rating, but rather write bromance/buddy-fiction or family-fic (usually bro-fic) or a cool (to me) male MC.  Sometimes that produces cleaner stuff, sometimes not.  All depends on what mood I am in or what fits the story 

Jodi


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## sherylb (Oct 27, 2008)

BuddyGott said:


> For my first novel, The Dead Dentists Club, I'm trying to keep it fairly "clean." All sex scenes are behind closed doors and all cursing is pretty tame. In an earlier draft, I used the f-word a few times, but then I realized I didn't need to.
> 
> _There's some murders and other violence, but I'm still striving for a PG13 rating._


Sorry for calling you out, but this is the perfect example of what is wrong with our (US) society today.
You freak out about sex and some curse words, but hey, a little murder and other violence is perfectly fine for kids to read! WOW. Give me a break.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

sherylb said:


> Sorry for calling you out, but this is the perfect example of what is wrong with our (US) society today.
> You freak out about sex and some curse words, but hey, a little murder and other violence is perfectly fine for kids to read! WOW. Give me a break.


How is this what is 'wrong with our society'? Since when is curbing graphic sex scenes/details and cleaning up the language a BAD thing- especially if you're aiming for 'PG-13'? Remember Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie? Lots of violence and murder there, but not dripping with sex and foul language. Most kids can deal with violence in reading - in smaller doses than adults, of course. They see it all around them and are reminded of it on a daily basis - especially this weekend with 9-11 memorials going on all over the country. There is NOTHING wrong with a writer choosing NOT to write these things, just as there's nothing wrong with a writer choosing to write WITH them. PARENTS are the ones who, ultimately, should decide what is or is not right for their child to read based on their maturity level. But, to tell another author their method of writing is an example of what is wrong with our society, is just out of line.


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## AnnetteL (Jul 14, 2010)

ilyria_moon said:


> ^ That being said, certain band members swear more than others, and they each have their favourite phrases. Some other characters they interact with don't swear at all. However, the ones in their working environment swear; that's just how it is.


I admire this. I've seen works where the writer throws in F-bombs not just to the drug dealer and the ex-con but to the little old retired man who probably wouldn't know what it means. Drives me nuts--you have to be true to your characters.

BuddyGott, I have to disagree with some of your logic. Violence (especially when it's good vs evil and good wins) is moral at its core, and I have no problem with kids reading some, depending on how graphic it is and what the child's age is. I'd far rather have my kids cheering for Luke Skywalker as he fights Darth Vader (be a good person--fight evil, or even something more graphic than that--Captain America, The Transformers, pick your PG-13 movie) than to be getting all turned on by sex scenes _years_ before they're ready for that kind of thing.

On the other hand, I have writer friends who are on the more conservative side (as am I) when it comes to sex and the like. One friend said she abandoned writing a novel that she knew had to go a certain direction to stay true to the story and the characters, but going there crossed a moral line she couldn't cross. Instead of being untrue to the story OR being untrue to her own values, she didn't finish it. I think that's admirable.

Another thought: I'm really surprised at how many people here don't write with any kind of audience in mind. It's great to write what you love, but if you don't have a picture in your head as to who your target reader is, I highly doubt you'll be able to produce something that sells. You can't find your readers if you don't know who they are. That's marketing 101.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

sherylb said:


> Sorry for calling you out, but this is the perfect example of what is wrong with our (US) society today.
> You freak out about sex and some curse words, but hey, a little murder and other violence is perfectly fine for kids to read! WOW. Give me a break.


Different folks have different definitions of "clean". Nice of you, to insult those of us who don't share your definition. 

*pulls tongue out of cheek*

Violence has always bothered me less (in books and movies) than sex or objectionable language. Exposure to violence in fiction hasn't made me any more violent; it makes me cautious. Exposure to objectionable language and graphic sexuality, on the other hand, makes me notice and dwell on those things more, which I don't need to do. I don't want to think or speak with offensive language, and I don't need to dwell on sexual activity. I'm single, and likely to be that way for awhile.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I don't want to start a debate, just make an observation.

I often hear people say their characters have sex and swear because that's real life. Well, we eat three times a day. We use the bathroom twelve times a day. We get constipated. Women get cramps and bloating and swollen ankles. I get up in the morning, get kids off to school and work all day. Have you ever been to court? Reading a court scene is nothing like real life court. Life is boring compared to fiction.

But guess what...we're writing stories. We're entertaining people. We put what we want in our stories and leave out the boring stuff. How often do your characters stop in the middle of the action to eat or use the bathroom? Do our characters get the flu? Do they need a tissue?

Personally, I don't like swearing. I don't want to read it, so I don't write them in. I've never had anyone complain that my stories aren't realistic because there's no swearing. Just like no one has said my stories aren't realistic because my characters don't use the bathroom every two hours.

We paint our own scenes. We create our own characters and story lines. If your characters swear, so what, they swear. But don't tell me you have to put it in to make it realistic because people in real life swear. People in real life pick their noses too, but most authors don't write about that.

Just sayin.

Vicki


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Writing is hard enough using the whole palette of language and experience. To just use the "clean" stuff, boy, that cuts out a lot. I'd make an exception for the YA and children's stuff. Still, it has to be genuine. Take any kid who reads and her or she can smell "fake" a mile away.


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I don't want to start a debate, just make an observation.
> 
> I often hear people say their characters have sex and swear because that's real life. Well, we eat three times a day. We use the bathroom twelve times a day. We get constipated. Women get cramps and bloating and swollen ankles. I get up in the morning, get kids off to school and work all day. Have you ever been to court? Reading a court scene is nothing like real life court. Life is boring compared to fiction.
> 
> ...


Yeah...my characters pick their noses and have important conversations at the urinals...I think I manage to make the scenes fun and not boring. 

Oooo man flu! I was actually thinking of a flu scene the other day, you just reminded me. Thanks!

*runs off to block new scene*

It's clear there are plenty of writing styles and enough readers for all of them.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

Interesting. In Monica, I wrote about pregnancy, about running to the bathroom, to the pharmacy, going crazy with the preg test, freaking out, and getting comforted though not sexually. I've had comments about how realistic the scenes were, how they pulled the reader in, how funny they were and how the reader couldn't let go.

True, normal action scenes would have none of that, but then again Monica isn't a normal action book, lol.


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

L.A. Tripp said:


> Interesting. In Monica, I wrote about pregnancy, about running to the bathroom, to the pharmacy, going crazy with the preg test, freaking out, and getting comforted though not sexually. I've had comments about how realistic the scenes were, how they pulled the reader in, how funny they were and how the reader couldn't let go.
> 
> True, normal action scenes would have none of that, but then again Monica isn't a normal action book, lol.


Hey, it worked for The Bride in Kill Bill!


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

LOL moon!


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)




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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

ilyria_moon said:


> Yeah...my characters pick their noses and have important conversations at the urinals...I think I manage to make the scenes fun and not boring.


Hahaha! Yeah, you're right. We can put important conversations at the urinals in our books. But what do our real conversations at the urinals sound like? Probably not as exciting as the ones we put in our books. 

But you're right, all kinds of styles, and all kinds of audiences for them. 

Vicki


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## sherylb (Oct 27, 2008)

R M Rowan said:


> How is this what is 'wrong with our society'? Since when is curbing graphic sex scenes/details and cleaning up the language a BAD thing- especially if you're aiming for 'PG-13'? Remember Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie? Lots of violence and murder there, but not dripping with sex and foul language. Most kids can deal with violence in reading - in smaller doses than adults, of course. They see it all around them and are reminded of it on a daily basis - especially this weekend with 9-11 memorials going on all over the country. There is NOTHING wrong with a writer choosing NOT to write these things, just as there's nothing wrong with a writer choosing to write WITH them. PARENTS are the ones who, ultimately, should decide what is or is not right for their child to read based on their maturity level. But, to tell another author their method of writing is an example of what is wrong with our society, is just out of line.


I'm not telling anyone what they can or can not write. I'm not biased either way. What I am saying is it is very hypocritical to say that violence does not affect kids just as much as sex does and that it is ok to write about it because they see it every day. It is because they see it every day that they are so jaded by it because it is a "normal" part of their life. How is being exposed to a passage about people making love harming them more than a passage about someone getting their head blown off?


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Hahaha! Yeah, you're right. We can put important conversations at the urinals in our books. But what do our real conversations at the urinals sound like? Probably not as exciting as the ones we put in our books.
> 
> But you're right, all kinds of styles, and all kinds of audiences for them.
> 
> Vicki


Hehehe "IS THERE ANY LOO ROLL IN THERE?"


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

sherylb said:


> I'm not telling anyone what they can or can not write. I'm not biased either way. What I am saying is it is very hypocritical to say that violence does not affect kids just as much as sex does and that it is ok to write about it because they see it every day. It is because they see it every day that they are so jaded by it because it is a "normal" part of their life. How is being exposed to a passage about people making love harming them more than a passage about someone getting their head blown off?


I really do get what you're trying to say here, however, as a kid, I said these words a million times: "Bang, bang!" I'd then blow on the end of my capgun and haul the 'prisoner' off to jail. Violent? Some would say yes. However, I don't ever remember saying:
"Bang, Bang! I've got you, [email protected]*d! Now get over here so we can f#*k!!" Making love is an ADULT activity. Getting socked in the nose, so to speak, starts at a very early age. So violence is PART of the kids life - it's not just seeing it, they *experience* it firsthand. They DO NOT normally experience having sex when they're kids. Some of us write for kids and we include certain amounts of violence because that's what they DO experience. This is what I'm saying about violence being a part of their lives. It is something they CAN'T get away from and it starts early. My seven year old has never once mentioned sex and she doesn't curse. However, she has been kicked and hit by a brat at school - so she has experienced violence, even in its infancy, and she can relate to this in the written word. It's the same argument that some use for putting violence, cursing, and sex in adult books. If a YA book contains a child-friendly amount of violence (sounds sick, I know and I'm *not* talking getting heads blown off) , that does not necessarily mean these young adults are also having sex and cursing with every breath. Believe it or not, there ARE kids out there who don't do those things. Unfortunately, though, the violence is part of their lives and it's not going anywhere. That having been said, I just read my sixteen year old daughter's library book, Numbers, and it contains sex (mild), lots of colorful language and violence - but it's in a form that I, as a parent, can comfortably accept for her maturity level. Which goes back to the poster who was trying to trim it down in all areas to keep it PG-13. It's not hypocritical to filter things, which is what they were doing by paring down in all areas. And there's nothing wrong with innuendo. Some of the very best movies I've ever seen had the sex implied instead of showing all of the details. There are many, many different ways to write and none of them are wrong. But, in the end, the author has to be comfortable with the subject matter before they can correctly convey it to their readers, otherwise they are doing themselves, as well as their readers, a great disservice. Happy writing!!!


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

AnnetteL said:


> Another thought: I'm really surprised at how many people here don't write with any kind of audience in mind. It's great to write what you love, but if you don't have a picture in your head as to who your target reader is, *I highly doubt you'll be able to produce something that sells*. You can't find your readers if you don't know who they are. That's marketing 101.


Seriously? I'm sorry, but there have been thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of books written in the past where marketing was the furthest from the writer's mind. Writing is a business, but the business occurs _after_ the writing unless your goal is to simply churn out another piece of whatever is popular that month/year. Do I want success? Of course I do, but I'm an artist first, businessman second. If that means my books don't sell millions, it's fine by me. I'd rather know that I published the story _I_ wanted to and not something I slapped together in a certain way to please a certain audience. All the marketing preparation in the world will do you no good if the story is rotten. And how can you be creative when you've shackled yourself with others' expectations? I don't get it. JMHO


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

R M Rowan said:


> My seven year old has never once mentioned sex and she doesn't curse. However, she has been kicked and hit by a brat at school - so she has experienced violence, even in its infancy, and she can relate to this in the written word.


Yes, this is definitely, and unfortunately, reality. We can't escape it. It's a sad thing that this is reality. But yes, there's violence all around us. The brats at school and work have been taught wrong.

However, there's also (usually not publicized, but it's still there), kissing, making out, and sometimes even sex happening between kids at school. This also means that this stuff is seen, too. That reality is also, unfortunately, there as well. We also can't escape that.

Now, I'm not saying YA books should contain that stuff. Not at all. Just speaking about reality.

There's drug use/abuse, fighting, bullying, kissing, and yes at times even sex happening in all of these places. We just don't want to see that. And yes, there have been times where young kids have participated in all of those things.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

L.A. Tripp said:


> Yes, this is definitely, and unfortunately, reality. We can't escape it. It's a sad thing that this is reality. But yes, there's violence all around us. The brats at school and work have been taught wrong.
> 
> However, there's also (usually not publicized, but it's still there), kissing, making out, and sometimes even sex happening between kids at school. This also means that this stuff is seen, too. That reality is also, unfortunately, there as well. We also can't escape that.
> 
> ...


Agee completely. However, the problem with YA books is that they are, many times, read by kids much younger than the teen years. And, the reverse also happens. Harry Potter, for example. I, personally, go at my writing with my own five kids in mind. Yes, the older kids know about sex, have heard the language, and have been bullied at different times. But, for me, on a TOTALLY personal level, I want my YA readers to be taken away from the "adult world" for just a little while. (Heck, I'd like to get out if it myself, on occasion!) Many of these kids out there never get to experience a childhood, free of physical abuse, bullying, rape and molestation and a host of other things. And, hopefully, they will learn that there are alternatives to every situation and that everything does NOT have to boil down to sex and violence. And, as I said earlier, my own older kids read things with sexual situations in them, but it is on their maturity level. I'm not saying those books are wrong in any way. I just feel that a writer should not *have* to include all three "sins" into their work for fear of being labeled a hypocrite if they don't. And, on the flip side, they should not be labeled a monster if they choose TO include them. To each his own....and let the story go where it may.


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

R M Rowan said:


> And, on the flip side, they should not be labeled a monster if they choose TO include them.


And THAT ^ is my worry. I see it happening.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

L.A. Tripp said:


> And THAT ^ is my worry. I see it happening.


Pretty scary. If freedom of speech goes, we're ALL in trouble ...


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## L.A. Tripp (Jul 18, 2011)

R M Rowan said:


> Pretty scary. If freedom of speech goes, we're ALL in trouble ...


What's even scarier is that we already have lost some freedom of speech.

But yes, I agree that we should be able to write whichever way we want to write our stories. Not have them banned one way or the other or shunned or controlled or whatever.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

My belief is that not every book needs to be written for a child or a teenager. Some books can be, and should be _adult books_ without being from the erotica genre only. As a reader, I don't want a book "dumbed down" just so a 13 year old can understand it and read it freely...I'm at a different intellectual level and I enjoy books that rise up to meet that. True, I like the Twilight Saga (no pitchforks, please)...and I think Breaking Dawn _was_ more adult, though it was YA decidedly--if I were a parent, making the literary choices for a child, that book probably would have to wait until they were older, even if they loved the first three. But it all travels back to the root of the issue...

Just like in every mass media industry, it's the _parent's_ responsibility to temper what their individual child can/should be exposed too. It's not my job, as a writer, to worry that my book might float into the wrong hands. I write _women's fiction_...not YA, not children's books...so....


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

SAMulraney said:


> Seriously? I'm sorry, but there have been thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of books written in the past where marketing was the furthest from the writer's mind. Writing is a business, but the business occurs _after_ the writing unless your goal is to simply churn out another piece of whatever is popular that month/year. Do I want success? Of course I do, but I'm an artist first, businessman second. If that means my books don't sell millions, it's fine by me. I'd rather know that I published the story _I_ wanted to and not something I slapped together in a certain way to please a certain audience. All the marketing preparation in the world will do you no good if the story is rotten. And how can you be creative when you've shackled yourself with others' expectations? I don't get it. JMHO


I think I (myself) am the audience I have in mind, and my expectations go into the writing. So, people who want the same things from books that I want may like mine. Luckily, I adore my genre, so I might luck into a good number of people who agree with me. However, I really couldn't sit with an imaginary Audience on my shoulder while I write. It would give me the yips. So, I can just cross my fingers that if I write a book that I as a reader like others will feel the same.

So, in a way, this is how I "write with an audience in mind."


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

AnnetteL said:


> Another thought: I'm really surprised at how many people here don't write with any kind of audience in mind. It's great to write what you love, but if you don't have a picture in your head as to who your target reader is, I highly doubt you'll be able to produce something that sells. You can't find your readers if you don't know who they are. That's marketing 101.


Oh, I know who my audience is. There's a difference between understanding who your audience is and making writing choices solely to pander (for lack of a better word) to a specific target audience. My audience is primarily romance readers. However, that's a big market--with room for both "clean" and "dirty" books. I write the stories I want to write, knowing that there are readers who want to read the stories I want to tell.

It's worked for me so far. I have no complaints about my sales, at least.


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## normcowie (Jun 21, 2011)

My first two books weren't 'clean,' if by that word you mean free of language. There's some cussing, because they're college guys on a quest, and there's some sophomoric humor and minor oogling of the other sex. But there were lines I wouldn't cross, like the 'F' word, and taking God's name in vain.  

Then when I wrote my YA's, I stripped all of the offensive language. Besides some minor action/violence, all with a humor bent, they are very clean and are used by schools in their curriculum. 

Here's the weird thing, my cleaning my language has affected my new adult books. My most recent, a caveman humor book (Bonk & Hedz) doesn't have any cussing. Of course, this might be because cussing hadn't been invented yet... .so it's one of those chicken/egg issues.

Norm


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## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm late to this discussion but I think it is possible to write a 'clean' adult book.  My books are fantasy, with typical fantasy violence but there's no real sex in the books, it's alluded to indirectly in that one of the characters is pregnant but not spelled out explicitly.  There's rarely cursing and nothing like contemporary swear words.  All three of my books can be read by adults and teenagers alike but they ARE adult books, I wouldn't necessarily recommend them to my 15 year old nieces because some of the violence, although it's fantasy violence, is fairly explicit so while it's true that children are exposed to violence I wouldn't necessarily feel they need to see any more than they have to - having said that though if you look at cartoons there's more violence than an average episode of NCIS


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm sure there are many people who write "clean" books. I try to avoid it myself. 

For all kinds of reasons.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I'm sure there are many people who write "clean" books. I try to avoid it myself.
> 
> For all kinds of reasons.


Exactly! This thread seems to presuppose that there's an all-encompassing generic "audience" out their looking for appropriate and specific books to read. There are all kinds of writers and all kinds of readers, and they all want to write about and read about different things.

Just write the story you want to tell. It will find its audience.

As far as that dubious definition of "clean" is concerned, I think those books are by far in the majority, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I dislike these kinds of debates, because they always have this undercurrent of implied self-censorship about them.

Write clean and find your readership. Write unclean and find your readership.

Write the story you want to tell. Period.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Andrew Biss said:


> Exactly! This thread seems to presuppose that there's an all-encompassing generic "audience" out their looking for appropriate and specific books to read. There are all kinds of writers and all kinds of readers, and they all want to write about and read about different things.
> 
> Just write the story you want to tell. It will find its audience.
> 
> ...


Yes.

I really do find it terribly depressing to think about not writing the book I want to write, because I think something else will sell better. There are so many readers out there of all different tastes, so it makes no sense to me not to write what you want to write. Unless your imagination is producing extremely off-putting and out-there stories, chances are, if you write them well, you will find an audience. Maybe it won't be the biggest audience...but, well, rarely are books written purely for crass commercial gain as inspired as those written out of passion. So one's best chance of writing a _good_ book is to write a story they are driven to tell.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

SAMulraney said:


> Writing is a business, but the business occurs _after_ the writing


Again, read John Locke for another perspective.

Not saying what's right, necessarily, but it pays to at least take such wisdom into consideration.

And who says "writing for oneself" and "writing for a target audience" has to be mutually exclusive?

J.K. Rowling's target audience was her son. And she's the highest paid author of, what, the last decade?


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

How about a quote from the real John Locke?

I attribute the little I know to my not having been ashamed to ask for information, and to my rule of conversing with all descriptions of men on those topics that form their own peculiar professions and pursuits. 
- John Locke


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

My books have nudity, but no explicit sex. However, I make it a point to let my characters cuss, my poetry bubble up with the full beauty of the language (which includes the f-word), and even my non-fiction book manages to dabble in the slang as well. We must hold ourselves to the standards of our readers. My readers might be uncomfortable with men-on-men explicit sex, so I take the detours for their sake, especially since they didn't pick up the book for that reason (if they did they'd be disappointed), but "clean" is a relative word, and I think a poorly written book with an unengaging story more "unclean" that the most explicity sex tome, even if it's about unicorns frolicking in the clover. (Of course, my unicorms would by gay, the clover would be hay and my readers would care about both of them).  

Edward C. Patterson


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## SimonSmithWilson (Jul 26, 2011)

lol, I had no idea this post would have so many replies! Now I have to read through them all and catch up.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

SAMulraney said:


> Seriously? I'm sorry, but there have been thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of books written in the past where marketing was the furthest from the writer's mind. Writing is a business, but the business occurs _after_ the writing unless your goal is to simply churn out another piece of whatever is popular that month/year. Do I want success? Of course I do, but I'm an artist first, businessman second. If that means my books don't sell millions, it's fine by me. I'd rather know that I published the story _I_ wanted to and not something I slapped together in a certain way to please a certain audience. All the marketing preparation in the world will do you no good if the story is rotten. And how can you be creative when you've shackled yourself with others' expectations? I don't get it. JMHO


I second this. Some of us here are trying to build a career, and others (like myself) are writing for the fun of writing. I have a job that I'm quite content with, and I'm not terribly interested in changing that. If it happens, I'll deal with it then. In the meantime, I'm writing for the funsies, not the sales. And I want to write clean books. If there's an audience for that, so be it. If not, who cares?

Call me an amateur, a hobbyist, or whatever label the snobs wants to lob at people who don't approach writing the same way they do (and there are a LOT of snobs here on KB!), but at least I go to bed at night knowing I'm being true to who I am. If that puts me in the poor house: amen!


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> Call me an amateur, a hobbyist, or whatever label the snobs wants to lob at people who don't approach writing the same way they do (and there are a LOT of snobs here on KB!), but at least I go to bed at night knowing I'm being true to who I am. If that puts me in the poor house: amen!


Bravo! I write for my enjoyment and the engagement of readers, and if I should sell a book or 2 or 13,000 (wink), it's part of the fun experience of knowing that you can finish w\something that you've started and be praised for a job well done by those who receive it (and $ .35 to boot).  There are many voices in this Indie revolution, all valid and if those voices are ungrammatical, hyperbolic, literary or clueless, it doesn't matter. The voice call. If it brings happiness to the bird, the cage is worth the having. If it attracts visitors to the zoo, the voice will outlast its warbler.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Nancy Beck (Jul 1, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> I was just curious to see if anyone wrote clean novels or set out to write clean novels. I personally did set out to write a clean novel.


It depends.

For my novella series, it's contemporary fantasy, so there are plenty of F-bombs and the like. For my short stories, Ten Cent Wings, I might have a hell or a damn, but that's about the extent of it. Those shorts are more of historical fantasy (or what I like to call historical fantasy, lol), because they're set in the late 1940s/early 1950s.

I just have it my mind that people didn't curse as much back then. I doubt that's true, but that's my mindset. 

Next year, I have the historical fantasy that I've been working on for years; I finally started rewriting it last year (different POV, which makes more sense), but, again, there isn't a heck of a lot of cursing going on; no F-bombs.

Violence? There's some, but none of these stories has explicit sex in it (not that I have a problem with that ).


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Is this all about moral decline?

There are many who write "clean* adult* books" and find an audience. TV, film, books and music seem to have broken down boundries for what is acceptable and what is not. Culture is forever changing and attidudes are far more liberal in the west. It wasn't too long ago that Lady Chattery's Lover was Banned from publication in the UK, only for it to go on and be a multi million seller once the courts ban was removed.

The entertainment industry of which we are a part merely reflects changes in culture in relation to language in contemporary fiction. I can remember a time when men wouldn't swear in front of women in a bar. Now some woman can swear men under the table.


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

Some people define clean as absolutely devoid of any sexual or violent content, and I mean absolutely. Yet the Romantic leads spend the whole book "chastely" lusting after each other. That is ridiculous. I include some violence appropriate to the historical time period I write in. I also include some intimacy between married people. Otherwise I use adventure, mystery, other characters, and plot elements to keep it from being "all I can think about is that person" from start to finish. I keep them apart and too busy to dwell on it or get them married early on.


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## William G. Jones (Sep 6, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> does anyone write clean adult books too?


Yes, I do, through I don't write G-rated books. My original intent was to be a Christian writer, but the more I progressed as a writer, the less comfortable I found myself with that particular box.

Right now, I'm trying to focus on writing positive stories, which is different for me, because I never tried to write anything purposefully positive before my novella.

My writing and my overall mindset seem to be welded, such that if I'm writing something horribly depressing, I get horribly depressed. If I write a paranoid thriller, I end up paranoid. I'm sure it's a mental illness of some kind, but it just became easier to focus on more lighthearted fare.

Although, I have an idea for a dystopian novel that will still be clean, but not quite so positive.


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


heh. I must check out your books.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

<sticks neck out> How about there's no such thing as dirty books, only dirty minds?


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> <sticks neck out> How about there's no such thing as dirty books, only dirty minds?


You mean to say there's no such thing as a dirty book?  Because I'm sure there are plenty of people right here who can point you in the direction of some downright filthy books!

If you what you are getting at is that "dirty" is subjective, you're right, of course. Perhaps to determine dirty vs. clean, one needs to know by what standard we're measuring the book against. To say that there's no such thing as a dirty book, only dirty minds, is to be disingenuous. Societies have standards of what is clean morally or not.


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## NS (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't have sex in my novels but my characters swear. A lot. And there's plenty of violence. But I still consider my books dark but not dirty.


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## Karin Kaufman (Jan 9, 2011)

William G. Jones said:


> My original intent was to be a Christian writer, but the more I progressed as a writer, the less comfortable I found myself with that particular box.
> 
> Right now, I'm trying to focus on writing positive stories, which is different for me, because I never tried to write anything purposefully positive before my novella.


William, I'm interested in what you said about originally wanting to be a Christian writer. I hemmed and hawed over this myself before I wrote my first book. I finally decided to be a "Christian writer" (knowing that the term means different things to different people) because I felt it would free me rather than place me in a box. It would allow my characters to actually *think* about God, which, strangely, is something not many characters in books do. I decided that the conventions of Chrisitan fiction would give me that freedom. And I think I was right, although being a so-called Christian author limits your readership. Many people won't pick up a work of Christian fiction for fear it will be chock full of Bible verses--or just plain awful.

I think the goal of writing something purposely positive is commendable. It's also hard. I've always thought it was much harder to be positive than to be dark. The dark stuff's easy. And it often sells better.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> You mean to say there's no such thing as a dirty book?


Actually, I was thinking of the Woody Allen line: "Do you think sex is dirty? Yeah, if it's done right."

I, personally, am disturbed by people who will turn up their noses at sex and colorful language but who have no problem with violence, abuse, and demeaning behavior to their fellow humans. To me those things are much dirtier than a good old-fashioned romp in the hay.

I have a fellow-writer acquaintance who can pontificate for hours about moral depravity but has no problem with starving children, elders who have to choose between food and medicine, and returning soldiers who can't get decent medical care. In my mind his way of thinking is far dirtier than those he rants about.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

My first book has graphic sex and a very upsetting scene in it. Since the main character has a goal of becoming a great lover, and since he was one of the first in the nineteenth century to actually want to please a woman, he needed to know how to do it and it needed to be shown.

Also, the length he had to go in order to get off the streets was graphic.

The novel also takes place in Paris and then Montmartre, during a time when art was changing, drugs were legal and rampant, any kind of sex you wanted was open and available. This was one of the most hedonistic times in history, and artists are not known for restraint. They pushed the envelope in their art and in their lives.

I am personally a very earthy person and to write these characters differently would have been more obscene than the words I used. Another example is the word play that often goes on between Gastien and his best friend, Mic. There is no way two peasants would talk "clean", especially when they are young men on the loose, having a good time.



> If a reader wants to read books which don't contain certain combinations of letters and in which aspects of human sexuality are left out that's all well and good, but to me it says more about the reader (nothing bad, of course) than the writer.


I agree. Completely. I wanted to copy what someone said about how it irritates them when stuff is bleeped out or sugary words are used that don't fit the character, but I lost the quote. When I read a gutty story and the people talk like they are at a church meeting, I quit reading. They don't all have to swear, but some characters definitely would and it turns me off when they are "wimped up" by the writer.



> If a piece contains something that might trouble sensitive readers, I put a warning in the description. I wish Amazon had the option to assign a heat and violence rating like AllRomance ebooks and some other smaller vendors. This makes it easier for readers to know what they're getting and for authors to clearly label their work.


I appreciate that everyone handles things how they see fit. However, I thought about putting a warning on my book that it had graphic sex and decided not to. Many, MANY of the best sellers in the bookstore have graphic sex or violence. They don't put warnings on them. To me, doing this to indie books makes it look like we are apologizing for writing it. I will not apologize for writing honestly. I read books like Rosemary's Baby and Valley of the Dolls when I was, like, 12 or 13 and it did not make me a satanist or a sex maniac (at least I don't think I am...) Since print books by major authors don't have warnings, mine won't either. I just personally think it looks silly. It is fiction. If it is not targeted as a childrens book, then to me people should know that there is a possibility of graphic sex or violence unless it is noted as a cozy romance, etc.



> But guess what...we're writing stories. We're entertaining people. We put what we want in our stories and leave out the boring stuff. How often do your characters stop in the middle of the action to eat or use the bathroom? Do our characters get the flu? Do they need a tissue?


Actually, mine do use the privy and it is mentioned more than once. They also bathe before having sex several times. Those two things being left out always bothered me, because I would sit and imagine how they stunk, or that their bladder would be ready to explode because they had gone for weeks without using a toilet. Just me. When I am reading a sex scene, it does not entertain me if the sex is left out.

Anyway, there is room for all types of writers because there are all kinds of readers. I have quit trying to decide who will be offended by the graphic scenes...because a 70 year old woman who was a nun is one of my biggest fans. And, a woman who has had sex with more men than I could count was offended. Go figure.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I know I've contributed some of my thoughts earlier in this thread, but I now feel compelled to share a few more.

Recently, I received my very first 1-star review on Goodreads for MOST LIKELY, my "Christian" novel. Yay! I'm pleased, because no book pleases everyone 100 percent of the time.

I read the review carefully, and she seemed to mostly like the story. She in fact said she was tempted to give the book three or four stars (I forget which) but instead one-starred it because, "the characters take God's name in vain" and she felt "believers would never do that" and suggested the book "shouldn't be called Christian at all."

What? Huh?

I went back and scanned my novel.

There were no G-dd--ns, because I hate that word myself.

There were no F-bombs or other coarse language. When my characters swear, I even put it in narration instead of dialog. Was that it? No, I doubt anyone would be quite that picky.

Then, I noticed, in a couple of the most stressful scenes of the novel, a couple characters spoke this way:

"God, I can't believe blah blah blah..."

That was it. That was all.

The word "God," used as part of an expression of frustration.

Now, there are probably a million ways to justify it. One could cite how few people took offense. One could even get into a theological debate about how the word "God" is generic and not actually with name of the God of the Bible (consisting of the Hebrew letters yod-hey-vav-hey and usually rendered in English as LORD), and one could even suggest that even squeaky-clean Hardy Boys novels sometimes used, "God, ...." as an expression.

And you know what?

None of that matters.

For that reader, the book was not a clean read. For that reader, that was a misuse of the name of God. For that reader, no matter what the laudable qualities of MOST LIKELY may be as a book that, in part, explores issues of faith and how it is affected by the seeming chaos of life, in the end it was not a "clean read," at least not for her.

And she's not wrong. Because she's a reader and its her sensibilities we're talking about. It's her standard, and for her, a line was crossed. For her, and maybe a small handful of others, perhaps even "Gosh" would have been too much, because it's a watered-down version of the same intent and use.

So, I welcome the feedback. I even "Liked" her review. Her opinion is completely valid.

Does that mean I'll change it? Probably not. By the time I completed MOST LIKELY, I was satisfied with it, as is. Including categorizing it as a Christian novel. I mean, one can never please all readers. I'm happy with MOST LIKELY as it now stands. I understand the critique; I accept her viewpoint.

But change it endlessly, in response to every 1-star review I'll ever get? No. That's not needed. And often, once you start doing that, you can sometimes change enough that the people who liked it before, no longer do.

Just accept that there will be a group of readers who will dislike it for that reason.

In truth, there are other reasons believers might dislike MOST LIKELY, as well. The atmosphere at churches, though not thoroughly explored, is not painted as an "always positive" experience.

Becky ultimately makes the "right choice" on premarital sex, but might go further than some would prefer, in terms of a makeout session with her boyfriend. She even feels tempted to go further, despite deciding not to.

And heck, we all know that there are readers who will dislike MOST LIKELY because it does include some consideration of God, church attendance, etc. Even though those elements are brief and not overwhelming, their very appearance will put some people off.

But that's okay, too. Those opinions are valid, too.

But ultimately, honest writing generates controversy... it doesn't have to seek it, but it will generate it.

Most people would consider the Bible itself the ultimate "clean read."


Yet the Bible includes:

A pair of sisters who sleep with their father.

A man who offers up his two daughters to a group of people eager to commit rape, in an effort to protect angelic visitors from the same rape-obsessed crowd.

A brother who rapes his half-sister... and then is murdered by that half-sister's full brother. (Most translations even render his actions as acts of "love.")

A king who seduces another man's wife... and has her righteous and patriotic husband murdered.

Several instances of polygamy without so much as a raised eyebrow.

Some rather graphic erotic love poetry.

A group of brothers who wipe out an entire town, because one person in that town raped their sister.

A king who gets his blessing as king taken away because he defied God... and chose NOT to commit genocide on an entire city.


Now, I am a believer myself. The brand of faith I practice in my private life is Messianic Judaism, which comes after being raised Lutheran and trying out various evangelical and charismatic churches for many years.

So I don't cite these examples to "bash the Bible." It's just the facts of what the Bible contains. And there's more to the "story" in terms of whether God approved of these things. (Mostly, He did not.)

But the point is, life is messy, not clean.

Believers may be believers, but even if that's who you're writing about (and, sometimes, to) they don't always behave consistently and "without sin."

The point?

Clean is in the eye of the beholder.

Clean's not entirely subjective, but no matter how clean you think you write... just remember... there's probably someone out there who thinks it's smut of one form or another.


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

I also commented earlier in this thread, but the discussion has gotten very interesting. Defining clean is not necessarily a matter of opinion, especially if the book is going to be classified as Christian. One other person brought up instances of "not clean" material in the Bible. He points out that "life is messy." This is very true, and there is nothing wrong with showing some of the mess. It is important to consider how the Bible treats these subjects. There is some harsh violence in the Bible. It is usually the work of evil men or judgment on gross sin. It should serve the same function in fiction. I don't think that anyone will dispute that David, Bathsheba and Uriah is one of the worst stories in the Bible. Nude bathing on the roof, lust, adultery, an out of wedlock child dying shortly after birth, and good man made drunk and murdered by proxy. Where's the good part? The good part is you know what David and Bathsheba did was bad, and the best part is God forgives sin. All sin. Even sin we wouldn't forgive. And you also know there are consequences for sin. Sexuality in the Bible is for married people, and the Bible does describe acts of intimacy in some places. It refers to private body parts, in the KJV has an indelicate idiom for males, and even mentions digging a hole and covering your waste in at least one place. So technically all of these things can be used.  

Using the name of the Lord as our culture does today, OMG, and God, as common as commas, with no intent to actually pray or cry out for help but just to express an emotion is not appropriate in a book labeled Christian, though. People in the Bible did not use it that way. Over and over God says His name is holy, and it has to be kept that way. It shouldn't be used at all, from a Christian perspective, in a book. The author controls the vocabulary, and he has to put honoring God first, whatever the culture and "realism" may dictate.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

ffvp said:


> It should serve the same function in fiction. I don't think that anyone will dispute that David, Bathsheba and Uriah is one of the worst stories in the Bible. *Nude bathing on the roof*, lust, *adultery*, an out of wedlock child dying shortly after birth, and good man made drunk and murdered by proxy. Where's the good part? The good part is you know what David *and Bathsheba* did was bad, and the best part is God forgives sin. All sin. Even sin we wouldn't forgive. And you also know there are consequences for sin. Sexuality in the Bible is for married people, and the Bible does describe acts of intimacy in some places. It refers to private body parts, in the KJV has an indelicate idiom for males, and even mentions digging a hole and covering your waste in at least one place. So technically all of these things can be used.


oooh, my favorite example, that evil temptress Bathsheba, who took her clothes off when she took a bath (because everybody knows you are supposed to leave your clothes on while you bathe, the evil!) Who was (ZOMG!!!) bathing on her roof (where many people bathed, but apparently not if you are a woman. Or pretty.) who committed the sin of being pretty. (Bad Bathsheba! You evil pretty!) who committed the sin of being "gotten" by David's guards ("Go get her for me,") so he could rape oops! commit adultery with her. (Bad Adulteress!)

What was the lesson? Oh yeah! That God allows his greedy rapist king to keep being King (also because he was pretty. "Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance.") Sorry, I just don't buy the apologist idea that the nasty things in the bible are there to teach us a lesson. Where's the lesson in this story? That you can rape somebody if she's pretty and you happen to see her naked, but if you are REALLY REALLY SORRY you can keep being the King?

What about the man in Judges who gave his concubine to the angry mob (so he could have dinner in peace with his supernatural guests,) then when they abused her all night until she died, he chopped up her body and sent her body parts all over the country. I'm sure there's a lesson in that, right? That it's okay to send out your mistress (that adulteress!) if you just want to have dinner without the pervs knocking on your locked door. She'll keep them busy, then you can desecrate her body afterwards to teach them all a lesson.

Seriously, if you want to define "clean," the last book you'd ever want to hold up as an example would be the Bible.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

StaceyHH said:


> Seriously, if you want to define "clean," the last book you'd ever want to hold up as an example would be the Bible.


Amen.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

My books are quite clean. I write younger YA that falls into the void between middle grade and the older edgier YA. The most I have sexually in the books is hand-holding, a lot of tingles when my heroine is near her crush, and a first kiss. Language-wise, I think I use the word "crap" twice. I did include one passage where my heroine (writtne in 1st person) describes her nemesis as a bigot (and then in narrration she points out that she could think of another B word that might fit the bill). But that's it.

The book was intentionally written to be too old for MG but not as edgy as YA, and ultimately that was my downfall for NY publishing. Editors loved it, but marketing departments didn't know what to do with it since it didn't neatly fit on either shelf, so I never was able to sell it, but now with self-publishing it's finally getting it's day. And there really is a market for this type of book, or at least that's what I'm hearing from moms, grandmas, aunts, teachers, and younger teens themselves.

Anyway, in terms of darker themes, although it's an extremely lighthearted mystery romp, it does actually have a significant subplot of anorexia. And when I was describing it to a crowd of teen readers last week when I sat on a YA panel at a library with 4 traditionally-pubbed YA authors, I said the plot was about the sabotage of a reality show that included arson, poisoning, and bombing, and one of my fellow panelists joked "So it's lighthearted?" Everyone laughed, but it actually IS quite lighthearted. LOL


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

Stacy HH
Concerning David and Bathsheba: You are a little confused. I said that this was adultery, but if I wasn't clear about blaming David I'm sorry. And if you think all that happened was that he was sorry and still got to be king, think again. 1) the child Bathsheba gave birth to died. 2) David's sons looked at his example and concluded, a) I can rape my sister and get away with it. b) I can declare myself king and dad wil run away and not fight me c) I can declare myself king when dad is old and sick and my brother won't do anything about it either. c) I can marry as many women as I want and it won't hurt my kingdom or my relationship with God 3) Joab can do absolutely anything he wants because he knows all the skeletons in my closet. 
David set the stage for the destruction of his kingdom by his weakness. 
You are confused regarding the incident in Judges. Lot in Genesis entertained the angels who were about to destroy Sodom and offered his daughters to them. The Levite in Judges gave his concubine to the Benjamites. Also, the concubine was not a mistress, she was a wife. She ran away and "played the harlot," in other words, committed adultery against her husband, and he went to woo her back.  Offering these women to the attackers was a horrible thing to do. No argument there. But they are two separate incidents. Both come under the umbrella of "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes," not what God would have told them to do had they bothered to ask.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

ffvp said:


> Stacy HH
> Concerning David and Bathsheba: You are a little confused. I said that this was adultery, but if I wasn't clear about blaming David I'm sorry. And if you think all that happened was that he was sorry and still got to be king, think again. 1) the child Bathsheba gave birth to died. 2) David's sons looked at his example and concluded, a) I can rape my sister and get away with it. b) I can declare myself king and dad wil run away and not fight me c) I can declare myself king when dad is old and sick and my brother won't do anything about it either. c) I can marry as many women as I want and it won't hurt my kingdom or my relationship with God 3) Joab can do absolutely anything he wants because he knows all the skeletons in my closet.
> David set the stage for the destruction of his kingdom by his weakness.
> You are confused regarding the incident in Judges. Lot in Genesis entertained the angels who were about to destroy Sodom and offered his daughters to them. The Levite in Judges gave his concubine to the Benjamites. Also, the concubine was not a mistress, she was a wife. She ran away and "played the harlot," in other words, committed adultery against her husband, and he went to woo her back. Offering these women to the attackers was a horrible thing to do. No argument there. But they are two separate incidents. Both come under the umbrella of "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes," not what God would have told them to do had they bothered to ask.


Judges 19. Two different incidents. Two different "righteous" men in the Bible who think it's appropriate to chop up a dead woman and send her in the mail to teach the rapists a lesson (even though in the example I cited, the "righteous" man was responsible for her abuse by handing her over to be abused.)

Lot was YET ANOTHER example of somebody who thought it was a good idea to give his family members to a mob to be abused. And yet he was also "Righteous," EVEN AFTER making such a heinous offer.

David's baby dying as punishment? I don't really see that as a lesson. I see that as either a) a tragedy, or b) God is an evil, and malicious deity. But there's not really a lesson for David. He was still King. If you want to make it a lesson from God, then make it a lesson. This isn't Enron.

I'm not saying you can't believe all those rotten stories and call it Good. I'm just saying that the Bible is one of the WORST examples of a "clean" book. You get more "clean" from Baudelaire.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Look, be a Christian writer, write "clean" books. Fine, nobody is stopping you, or even complaining. But just don't be disingenuous about it and try to claim that you're following the Bible's example, because "clean" books bear absolutely no resemblance to the Bible.


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

The whole point of righteousness is that it comes from the atonement of Jesus Christ, not from our actions. The Scriptures don't say the Levite with the concubine was righteous. They do say Lot was. We don't have the whole story on Lot, clearly and I sure wouldn't have called him so. But my point from the beginning was that man sins, sins horribly, but God in His mercy forgives. You can attack the Word, but it is the history of man's sin causing a titanic struggle with God's righteousness, and how God has tried to be merciful in spite of how little we deserve it.


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

Stacy HH, I agree with you, that "clean" books are sanitized and empty of reality. Odds are the people who demand "clean" books are skipping over those nasty uncomfortable parts of the Bible as well. It's a hypocritical position.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

I write "clean" books.  There is romance, but not sex.  My characters swear - but even that's limited. i.e. I don't use the f-bomb. 

My readers enjoy my books - and one review I received said that she normally prefers erotic novels, but enjoyed the characters and the stories in my book.

I don't write "clean" books because I'm taking a stand.  I write them because that's what I'm comfortable with and, for now at least, it seems to be working for me.


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## brianjanuary (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm no prude, but I think that books with (at least) limited profanity and sex have a little more class. My new thriller "Emerald" is about 99% swear-free and the sex is implied, not described.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I saw this title and went 'What (or, WTF) is a clean book?

Is clean some sort of metaphor that means 'no swear words'? Does it mean that if you use no swear words or describe any sex that the story will be wholesome and Conforming to Standards?

Seriously, I think the obession over the use (or not) of f-bombs or sex scenes stifles the story. If the story requires it, put them in. For one, I'm finding it verrrrrrry hard to believe that you'd have hardboiled criminal types who do not swear and never have lewd or downright disgusting thoughts.

Whether or not I'll use f-bombs and sex scenes depends wholly on the story and especially the characters. I want to portray them as accurately as I can, not to be stifled by some sort of self-imposed moral code.

(Using foul language in writing says nothing about you as a person. It says something about how well you get into the character. I write f-bombs plenty of times when characters would use them, but have never actually spoken the word out loud)


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

_The Pearl Savage_ ( my YA) is "clean" but has some mild violence and one swear word. The story dictates it being "clean." The era is 1890s America (not exactly, it's convoluted, but that's the basis), the societal constraints during that time frame were such that the characters behavior is predicated on the time. The society evolves but in an isolated way, leaving the behaviors and vernaculars old-fashioned.

My other series reflects the society in which we live now. That's probably where a lot of authors are at. IMHO, if we're writing something that we want to smack of realism, it will not be squeaky clean ( unless it is like the above or religious in its tone, OR middle grade/young children's).


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, I'll reiterate a few key talking points.

1) I have no problem with how any author decides to write their stories. That's up to them, and those choices will in part determine their audience. Want to write clean? Plenty of people enjoy that. Go for it. What to write a little gritty? Plenty of readers enjoy that as well. Want to write ultra-violence and/or erotica? Enjoy... there's an audience for those things, too.

2) I tend to write cleaner than some, because of the choices I make as a writer. When I have a character who swears, I write something like "Ember swore," but I don't define what cuss words she used by putting them in dialogue. That's my choice, and will determine who my audience is, just like anyone else. No one's suggesting there's one right approach... or at least, I'm not. But I do think it's unnecessary to suggest that because I make the choices I make for my fiction, my fiction is somehow "less honest." That's just not so. It's part of knowing who my core audience is, and writing to them.

3) My intent in my last post wasn't to spark a debate on the content of the Bible. It was to underline my larger point, which was merely that "clean" is in the eye of the beholder. Clean isn't completely relative, but it's also not exactly the same for everyone. That's all.

4) To underline a slightly different point... I once came across a writer who was working on a novel. He said the book he was writing was for readers on the young side of YA, but the age of the female protagonist was closer to MG as the novel opened. I had agreed to read it and share my impressions. This 10-year-old protagonist, in the space of a 40-page chapter, was molested, witnessed a brother and sister performing erotic acts with each other, and struggled with a sexual attraction to a slightly older girl, and her own arousal. At age 10. I couldn't finish the book. I told the writer in the gentlest terms possible that he'd violated about the only two content rules that Amazon and BN.com actually enforce: sexual activity of a minor under the age of 18 (in this case, well under) and any hint of incest. He was shocked, because... he claimed... that in the area and culture he was raised in, such things were almost taken for granted because they happened so often. Personally, if he wanted to write that kind of story, I felt it was his decision... but I did warn him that labeling it YA or MG would almost certainly get him into trouble with Amazon, BN and the like. (P.S., He was not writing erotica... at least, he didn't feel he was.) 

No one here, I think, is claiming that all fiction should be clean.

I believe the OP asked the question, "Does anyone actually write clean" and so that seems to me to be either an invitation to say, "Yeah, I do," and cite why... or to respond with, "Does anyone? Everything will offend someone, somewhere, for some reason."

But "all fiction must be clean" was not suggested by anyone whose post I remember reading. 

And all reader opinions are valid... for those readers. No one has to agree with them. But it'd be silly to say to any reader "Your opinion is invalid." No, it's not. No one gets to tell anyone else what should be acceptable for them to read or not read. We all get to make those choices for ourselves.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

I agree that you should write the story the way it needs to be written. If that includes profanity and sex, go for it!

In real life, I swear like a sailor. I just happen to write squeaky clean.


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

Craig in Twin Cities, thanks for summing up the conversation and clarifying the point of all this. The books we write should be true to our own beliefs. Otherwise we violate what makes us who we are. They should conform to the standards of the entity putting the work "out there," like Amazon (and we need to clear on what those standards are). They should be directed at a target audience, usually one which has tastes and standards similar to our own. If we can cross outside that target audience to people who respect the writer's ability, though they usually look for different things (as another poster mentioned concerning people who read erotica), then we have done a good thing. We have been true to our limits and still communicated to a wider audience. We might even disappoint the people who demand a stricter standard than we believe is right or necessary. 

Concerning the work Craig was asked to read: Isn't it possible that some people tap into their "writer's soul?" Even though they find in there, as we probably all do, to some extent, a fountain dark and dangerous, they feel they must pump it out and tell the world "how they feel?" I don't agree that the darkness in my soul needs to be shared with everyone. I don't think that it's cool or edgy or necessary to include all that stirs and entices me. I want to edify, to build solid, straight and beautiful structures in the souls of readers that point them upward, not force them down deeper into what they already have to look at in the dark heart of man.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

This is an interesting topic.  I try to be as clean as my genre allows.  Since I write horror and violent crime novels, I often have to go deep into the blood and viscera.  However, I do try to limit swearing in many of my books.  I also avoid graphic sex.  I try, as much as possible, to keep the violence relevant to the story rather than gratuitous.  I am quire sure I am not 100% successful, but I make every effort.


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## publishing virgin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hell, yes, I write clean books! 
  My novel is called a 'closed door' novel. It is a new term to me and apparently means no graphic explicit sex. Well, come on; is there anything left to tell about sex, anyway? We've had it described in so many books in so many ways it's become routine, expected, and frankly has lost some of its excitement from overexposure. (pun intended).Actually I have written about sex, but it's the sweet side of sexual attraction where the simple touch of a hand on a hand brings that first rush of desire. 

I have mild swearing in Portland Oregon's Most Eligible Bachelor because it would be hard to find young macho guys who don't swear; unless, of course they are devoutly religious and that is another whole genre. There is also violence in my books but I don't know if that is considered 'unclean'. Life is violent whether it is clean or dirty.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

My adult books are much cleaner than most YA, and my kids books are so clean you could use them to shine your windows. It's just how I write.

Most comedy is based on swearing, violence and sex. You try writing a series of funny novels with none of the staples to fall back on.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

publishing virgin said:


> I have mild swearing in Portland Oregon's Most Eligible Bachelor because it would be hard to find young macho guys who don't swear; unless, of course they are devoutly religious and that is another whole genre. There is also violence in my books but I don't know if that is considered 'unclean'. Life is violent whether it is clean or dirty.


LOL, but I thought PORTLAND'S MOST ELIGIBLE... was about a nerdy type guy, not a "young macho guy."

And I quote:



> Michael McMartin, Portland Oregon's Most Eligible Bachelor, is a multimillionaire computer nerd with about as much sex appeal as a wart...Against his will, Michael is drawn to this intelligent, but totally unacceptable, 'hillbilly' girl and the two wounded misfits connect, 'nerd heart' to 'nerd heart'.


Your novel is THE BIG BANG THEORY, more or less, relocated to Portland!  Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and Rajeesh (sp?) don't cuss like sailors!  Neither does TWO AND A HALF MEN's Walden Schmidt, really. (The new character Ashton Kutcher's playing.) And Walden is practically Michael McMartin to a T! 

[/tease]

Side-note: I prefer "clean or gritty" to "clean or dirty," as I think gritty imparts a "style choice" presumption while "dirty" imparts a moral value judgment.


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## Connie Chastain (Jun 25, 2011)

I would classify my book, Southern Man, as clean, even though it has sexual themes -- the protagonist is falsely accused of sexual harassment. He and his wife have a powerful sexual bond, and that is an important element of the story.  But as one reviewer noted, I wrote "sexy love scenes ... without being a prude but without being graphic as well." I didn't set out to write a Christian romance but several readers and reviewers classified the book that way, so I guess it's clean, in that respect.  It does have a smattering of profanity and violence.


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

My definitions of clean might be different to yours so I think the answer to your question will be m'mmm, sort of fuzzy. I write the odd mild swear word when it is merited by a character's frustration, and my sex scenes (so far, anyway) have been done without involving four letter words or overuse of words describing various body parts. I've managed to kill characters off without dwelling on the gore. I'm going for drama in the story rather than violence for its own sake. Does that make my books clean?
Jen


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

My definitions of clean might be different to yours so I think the answer to your question will be m'mmm, sort of fuzzy. I write the odd mild swear word when it is merited by a character's frustration, and my sex scenes (so far, anyway) have been done without involving four letter words or overuse of words describing various body parts. I've managed to kill characters off without dwelling on the gore. I'm going for drama in the story rather than violence for its own sake. Does that make my books clean?
Jen

Jen Black
FAIR BORDER BRIDE


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

I think you need to be true to the story. There's very little sex in HANG ON, but there's some reference to the carrying on of rock and roll groupies - they talk about it in dialog, but I don't show any of it. The protagonist has a really clean vocabulary - the worst thing she calls anyone is "jerk" - but she's constantly assaulted by profanity, even as a little girl. And when she gets a French boyfriend, he has her swearing in French, just for the fun of it, without telling her what the words really mean.

The language is a statement of what people do to people whom they perceive incorrectly.  The things people say to this girl are offensive enough so that I put a warning for "strong language" on the Amazon page. I wouldn't really have the same story and observations, if the words weren't there.


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## TeresaDPatterson (Oct 23, 2011)

I've written two clean novels. The first one is a romance novel, Panzina's Passion and the other one is Christian fiction. It's titled In Need of a Joshua Man. There is no strong language, no violence, no graphic sexual acts, etc. in either.Those are the only clean books I've written. My target audience prefer dirty so I aim to keep them happy!


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

I like to use the vernacular, and a lot of it isn't clean, so I go there.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

My older sisters think my books are too racy so I have been writing a few that are clean.


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## publishing virgin (Jan 24, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> LOL, but I thought PORTLAND'S MOST ELIGIBLE... was about a nerdy type guy, not a "young macho guy."
> 
> And I quote:
> 
> ...


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

brianjanuary said:


> I'm no prude, but ....


That usually means "yes, I really am." 

I'm not in favor of anything that is gratuitous but you have to serve your story. If I'm writing about people who don't use colorful language, I don't use it either but some of my characters -- mostly working class guys who are fishermen and mariners -- would sound ridiculous saying "gosh darn it." My only YA story has one f-bomb in it because it is about a 13 year old boy who hears a man use the word and he repeats it. Show me a 13 year old boy who wouldn't do that if he could get away with it.

As for sex, restraint is always better if you can create your scene realistically. I have one scene in the early chapters of The Old Mermaid's Tale (in the backseat of a Thunderbird with Elvis on the radio) in which there is not one explicit word but I've gotten at least a dozen emails from people who have said "that's the hottest thing I ever read."

It's all about writing authentically.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Shouldn't the post use the word "nonexplicit" instead of "clean"?  That would emcompass violence, cursing and sex.  How come sex is "dirty" in America but not in many other countries?  Unfortunately, that puritan attitude still prevails.  Personally, I would rather a child witness two people making love than a person getting shot.  However, it seems to be acceptable to have violence everywhere, even in childrens books and cartoons. Not that I am saying sex should be in them.  I am just saying that sex is natural, killing someone is not; so of the two, sex would be preferable.  Neither belong in childrens books or cartoons, because they have plenty to learn about just living before they learn about sex.  Let's at least teach them to read and write; how to get along with others, before we teach them how to have sex or shoot someone in the head with a laser gun!

It really amazes me that explicit sex is still seen as "dirty" or "not clean".  Sex is one of our strongest drives and it should not be a suprise when it is in novels not targeted for children.  Do all novels have to have it?  No, certainly not.  But those that do are not "dirty". One persons erotica is anothers pornogaphy.  Still, sex will never be buried from literature, because it is one of our greatest drives and pleasures.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

SimonSmithWilson said:


> You may read the title and think I am having a go. I really am not. I think everyone has a story to tell and you can write what ever genre you like. I was just reading several posts on the forum from today and a few days back about erotic books being removed, violent books being removed and I noticed a large portion of the talking points are about violent or books of a sexual nature.
> 
> I was just curious to see if anyone wrote clean novels or set out to write clean novels. I personally did set out to write a clean novel. My book has a very large running battle where all the various characters go into unique and dangerous situations, but I remember a Jackie Chain interview (forgive my reference!) but he said, which I agree, you can have a action packed violent movie without showing all the gory details and in fact turn a tense situation, which makes a point, into a more reader friendly situation where you touch on the subject without going dark. An example being his movies, the most amazing fight scenes, but 99% of them PG, as he doesn't allow anything graphic in his movies.
> 
> ...


All mine are totally clean. Tons of action and complex characters but no sex, no gratuitous violence and not a single swear word in 1/3 million words. I believe it's possible to write gripping literature without resorting to any of that.

Mark


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Caddy said:


> Personally, I would rather a child witness two people making love than a person getting shot.


Amen, sister!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

publishing virgin said:


> How about a review?


I'm planning one, but I'm not all the way through yet. And as a policy, I don't review a book until I finish it.


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## lacycamey (Apr 25, 2011)

Mine are pretty clean. PG I'd say!


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Italiahaircolor said:


> My belief is that not every book needs to be written for a child or a teenager. Some books can be, and should be _adult books_ without being from the erotica genre only. As a reader, I don't want a book "dumbed down" just so a 13 year old can understand it and read it freely...I'm at a different intellectual level and I enjoy books that rise up to meet that. True, I like the Twilight Saga (no pitchforks, please)...and I think Breaking Dawn _was_ more adult, though it was YA decidedly--if I were a parent, making the literary choices for a child, that book probably would have to wait until they were older, even if they loved the first three. But it all travels back to the root of the issue...
> 
> Just like in every mass media industry, it's the _parent's_ responsibility to temper what their individual child can/should be exposed too. It's not my job, as a writer, to worry that my book might float into the wrong hands. I write _women's fiction_...not YA, not children's books...so....


Amen. I never intended my books to be read by children. I think they would be fine for 15 and up. They aren't graphically violent and there's only a few very mild sex scenes (kissing that then fades to black or is interrupted before it goes further.) However, the subject matters, terrorism, torture, cults, etc, aren't topics children are typically interested in. My 11 yo loves to read, but I've never suggested she read my books. My 12 yo nephew started reading the first one, and I was actually kind of horrified. He'll never look at me the same way again! lol. I never heard if he finished, and I haven't asked. I'm better off not knowing.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

My characters swear, make love, and when they must, they meet violence with violence. They are consenting adults mired in conflict and challenges. Is my fiction clean? Not sure. My protagonists are generally honorable and end up doing the *right* thing, while my villains are nasty and generally end up where they deserve. Conflict is king in fiction. And it's generally between good and evil in some way. That's story...to me at least. 

I'm not sure how much a few curse words and a love scene or two affects my cleanliness rating. I will ponder. 

An interesting topic with some valid and varied points of view. A good thing.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> My characters swear, make love, and when they must, they meet violence with violence. They are consenting adults mired in conflict and challenges. Is my fiction clean? Not sure. My protagonists are generally honorable and end up doing the *right* thing, while my villains are nasty and generally end up where they deserve. Conflict is king in fiction. And it's generally between good and evil in some way. That's story...to me at least.
> 
> I'm not sure how much a few curse words and a love scene or two affects my cleanliness rating. I will ponder.
> 
> An interesting topic with some valid and varied points of view. A good thing.


EC, where in the PacNW are you?

We have a large contingent of Oregon writers on here. Mainly concentrated either in Eugene or Portland.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> EC, where in the PacNW are you?
> 
> We have a large contingent of Oregon writers on here. Mainly concentrated either in Eugene or Portland.


I live on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, a two hour ferry, a border, and a six hour drive from Portland.  It's been a while since I was in Portland. Great town!


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## StephenEngland (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, as others have said, I think it depends on what your definition is of clean. For me, in writing my spy thriller, it was to produce a book free of profanity and sex. Which I accomplished successfully, while producing what people might expect in an action thriller.

Profanity and sex are something that I think most people can take or leave--which is somewhat the definition of gratuitous. I've had no complaints regarding their absence.


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## ElisabethGFoley (Nov 20, 2011)

I never know quite where to start when I come in at the end of such a long thread.  My answer to the original question is yes. As someone said, I write the kind of books I like to read. For me it's simply a matter of conviction, and it comes naturally - I was raised in a home where profanity was never used, so it's unpleasant for me to hear or read it.

Actually, I wrote an entire blog post on this same subject, where I talked about the argument that profanity is necessary for 'realism' and why I don't agree. I hope nobody minds if I just link to it, because I don't feel equal to the task of distilling it down to a forum reply of manageable length! http://www.thesecondsentence.blogspot.com/2011/05/language-choice.html



> Most comedy is based on swearing, violence and sex. You try writing a series of funny novels with none of the staples to fall back on.


Well...all I can say is, have you ever heard of P.G. Wodehouse?


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## ffvp (Oct 12, 2011)

Elisabeth, I posted on this thread some time ago, thought it was dead, but it's not a topic that we should give up on. I was raised in a home where profanity it was common, and have been around it all my life, but it is not part of my writing, and never will be. I have a fair bit of violence, and mild intimacy between husbands and wives, but my convictions shape my writing also, and it is painful to hear all these people say the genre justifies whatever they want to do and say. What I believe governs what I write, and it will always do so, and I pray make me consistent in not dishonoring what is right for what is "realistic." Will check out your blog!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Elisabeth, I posted on this thread some time ago, thought it was dead, but it's not a topic that we should give up on. I was raised in a home where profanity it was common, and have been around it all my life, but it is not part of my writing, and never will be. I have a fair bit of violence, and mild intimacy between husbands and wives, but my convictions shape my writing also, and it is painful to hear all these people say the genre justifies whatever they want to do and say. What I believe governs what I write, and it will always do so, and I pray make me consistent in not dishonoring what is right for what is "realistic."


Some of us simply don't have a problem with profanity, explicit sex, and so forth. You're perfectly welcome to your convictions, of course, but other people have different convictions. If I felt writing sex scenes and using profanity was wrong, I wouldn't do it, whether it was "realistic" or not. But I personally don't have a problem with writing such things, nor do I feel that I'm dishonoring anything at all.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Some of us simply don't have a problem with profanity, explicit sex, and so forth. You're perfectly welcome to your convictions, of course, but other people have different convictions. If I felt writing sex scenes and using profanity was wrong, I wouldn't do it, whether it was "realistic" or not. But I personally don't have a problem with writing such things, nor do I feel that I'm dishonoring anything at all.


What she said.

There are things I wouldn't write, because I consider them wrong. But consensual sex and swearing are not among them.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow, this is such a long thread I can't remember whether I've posted in it before. I confess I'm too lazy to read back over all 9 pages to find out.   But yes, I do believe lots of people are writing books without sex or profanity and there's definitely a segment of readers looking for tame/mild/sweet reads. Some of this is categorized as Inspirational or Christian fiction but a lot of it isn't, because the themes aren't specifically religeous. Some of it is also tagged or categorized as YA, even when there's nothing YA about it, other than a lack of graphic violence or detailed sex. Besides, as YA fiction becomes increasingly more grown-up, the line there is pretty blurry, so a YA tag won't mean to some readers what it does to others. 

So many of my reviews say things like, "This is completely G-rated but still a good read" or "the author should categorize this as young adult" that it's obvious many readers think this is worth mentioning. I'm grateful reviewers bring it up, as I believe it's a selling-point for some readers while warning away anyone who might be disappointed by my tameness.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

ffvp said:


> Stacy HH, I agree with you, that "clean" books are sanitized and empty of reality. Odds are the people who demand "clean" books are skipping over those nasty uncomfortable parts of the Bible as well. It's a hypocritical position.


Just reopened this thread, and saw this false reinterpretation of my statement. I do NOT agree that "clean" books are devoid of reality. I read a lot of them in my youth, and some are still on my list of all time favorites. Also, I don't find hypocrisy in the skipping of parts of the bible. Religionists the world over pick and choose the beliefs that are important to them. I do find hypocrisy in stating that killing a baby to punish a King in any way resembles "justice," or that a raped woman is an adulteress.

Again, in case it was lost in the above paragraph, I do NOT agree with your statement that clean books are sanitized and empty of reality, that is YOUR opinion, NOT mine.


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

My books are clean, and I would challenge anyone who thinks they're "sanitized" or "empty of reality" to grab a sample, or just look at the reviews. My books are full of real emotion and real passion, as I'm sure most other clean books are. It's ridiculous to make such a blanket statement. Just because these books aren't to your taste doesn't mean other readers don't find them very real and compelling. Seriously. Read the reviews for some clean books and see how deeply readers can be affected by them. Clearly they don't find them unrealistic.

And I'm not just talking about books that feature characters who live in a "cleaner" world that you may in real life. It is quite possible to write about damaged characters living in volatile situations, to share their frustration, their deep desires, their rage, without using curse words or describing sex in great detail. Though it may not be your style, it comes naturally to some writers—no scrub brush needed to "sanitize" the story or its characters.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Interesting blog! I have wondered about this issue too.

I have 3 short stories up on Amazon, They could be termed women's literature and the all three titled contain the word "marriage." However, my stories are super clean without reference to obscenity and intimacy. There is subtle romance, which is how romance should be. My married couple characters would hold hands and explore a city together, they don't get crass. I write literature, not B-grade magazine fillers.

My mom reads my stories as a beta reader, I don't write stuff I'd be embarrassed to show her. Interestingly enough, when I approached book review blogs, they all *assumed* I had written erotica (ew!!) and some of them hence declined to review my stories, they could'nt fathom clean writing with the title "marriage." *sigh*


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## 4eyesbooks (Jan 9, 2012)

My books are pristine.  Of course they are for little ones.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Even an angel could read "Eaten by the Japanese"--my father's Prisoner of War story, which I edited and added essays to. Children have read it, veterans have read it. No "improper" words in there.

But in other books, I write according to my conviction that control of language is mind-control--it is a class thing, and has been: certain people making rules and telling others they would be violation if they used certain words. That's why I don't subscribe to political correctness: someone thinking they know better than you, and constantly reminding you that you're using the wrong terms (handicapped instead of "otherly abled"). That said, my books being highly varied, from political to sexy, the use of language is appropriate to the book--as I deem it. Someone might disagree, but in my books, I believe the mind ought to be free, and my books represent (often) the stream of consciousness, unedited.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

rubyscribe said:


> which is how romance should be.
> 
> they don't get crass.
> 
> ...


Well, at least you have tact and diplomacy pretty well buttoned up.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Point taken!


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

I write clean books but on hard subjects. I don't include profanity or sexually graphic scenes, though in my next novel there is an attempted rape. I try to give my books a cross appeal to young adults and I don't want to be the cause of contributing to their corruption!


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## ErikHyrkas (Dec 24, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Ummm....yeeeah. I tried writing a clean series with the paladins. I still had the F-word sneak in, and had children getting slaughtered by the final chapters.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

My first attempt at writing a completely clean book is my worst seller, probably because it is not what my readers expect. It's the first story in my signature and it's free if you want to grab it over the weekend before it is priced again. When I say clean , I am talking in terms of free from bad language.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Ian Fraser said:


> I think the idea of dividing books into 'clean' and (presumably) 'dirty' categories is absurd - by this criteria it would mean that books like the Bible would fall into the dirty category, given the sexual acts and genocides contained in it. The world is a million shades of gray, not black and white. Not clearly 'clean' and 'dirty.' The clean/dirty definition is too loaded to begin with. It says more about the questioner than anything else.
> /2 cents mode off


*thumbs ups* What he said! 

[edited] I just read through most of the comments and want to add my thoughts. By the standards of some of the definitions thrown out for clean/dirty, my books are definitely dirty. There is profanity, violence and sexual content. Now, I know I'm new here so I'm going to try not to piss too many people off with my next comment; but I need to say this. I am sick and tired of reading books that "clean up" the human experience. As an adult I don't want to read books like that. Last summer I actually stopped reading "Birthmarked" because it was obvious that the writer wanted to make it a "clean" book, so clean that it was unrealistic. I love dystopias; but as an adult it is difficult if not impossible to find contemporary dystopian fiction written for grown folks. Furthermore, I refuse to write my books with kids in mind. If people believe my books are too dark for kids, then keep them out of the grown folks section of the bookstore (Amazon site, B&N etc.). One final point...I write about the darker side of childhood because I am completely fed up with the whitewashed version. For many children in this country, childhood is a living hell and I think that story needs to be told too...uncensored.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Even in writing my next venture with my son - which is a YA paranormal thriller with reapers and death and general mayhem - there are some mild curses (hell and ass being the most 'offensive' - but nothing stronger than that) - but I'm taking the advisement of my twelve year old and how kids talk these days and our MC is thirteen.


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## LKWatts (May 5, 2011)

My first two books are on the other end of the spectrum completely but I plan to make my third book clean


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## Zander Schloss (Sep 4, 2011)

My YA novel is so clean that it squeaks... to a point that it's been said it isn't "edgy" enough to interest the young adult audience for which it was intended. Yeah, whatever. I'm just hoping that a reviewer or two will point out the fact that there's only a minor curse word (a**) here or there and that it's suitable for even young teens. Still waiting.

I refuse to believe that I've got to include profanity, guns, and car chases to get readers interested. Anyone with me?


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