# Getting rid of the indie stigma



## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Here's the thing.  I've been an indie author since December. Self-publishing on Amazon has been a wonderful thing for me. I"m indie and I'm proud.  But, still...  When I tell friends and former co-workers (I used to be a newspaper reporter) that I've got two published e-books, they're impressed at first.  But when they learn my novels are self-published, not so much.  I can understand why.  Self-published, not so long ago, meant vanity press. Not everyone understands it's different now.
And, let's be honest, most of us indie authors would much rather have a major publishing contract if we could.  Most of us, I'll bet, have tried very hard to get an agent and a publisher.  I know that some indie authors have had publishing contracts, and are now indie by choice or circumstance.  But they're currently the exceptions.  I understand maybe that will change in the future, and more and more traditionally published authors will go indie. 
But for now, there's still a stigma. 
So what do we do?
The more good indie authors there are, the better it is for all of us.  And I think, generally speaking, we're in pretty good company.
Maybe, instead of trying to promote our own books on threads like this, we should promote other indie authors whom we've read and enjoyed.  If an indie is praised by another indie, I think that's very high praise indeed.

I'll start.  I absolutely loved "Faking It" by Elisa Lorello, whose books seem to be selling remarkably well.  I downloaded a sample, just out of curiosity, and I couldn't stop reading.  It's about a college professor who develops a relationship with a gorgeous, charming male escort.  She teaches him about the craft of writing.  He teaches her how to love the body she's in.  But despite the premise, it's in no way sleazy.  Just sensual and funny and thought-provoking.  The formatting isn't great.  But who cares when the words are.  She's a terrific writer, and I'm proud she's an indie. 
I'm currently reading a novel by another indie author, and I'm completely hooked.  I'll post about it when I'm done.


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## ASparrow (Oct 12, 2009)

I like any of Patrick Whittaker's writing (Walpurgis Night, etc.). He's heavily represented on Smashwords.

http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/9374

The subjects and topics don't really draw me (Walpurgis Night is actually a vampire novel) but his writing skill is just dazzling.

He's an example (and there are at least several on this board) of an indie writer whose lack of a mainstream publishing contract simply astounds me. If writer's like them can't succeed in the mainstream, then I have no chance whatsoever.


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

I read Carolyn Kephart's short story _The Kind Gods_ the other day and thought it was great. She's got a cool style. I looked to see if she started a thread here for it, but couldn't find one. I'll leave my thoughts here.

http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/10752

I like this...kind of a pay it forward vibe.


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## mamiller (Apr 28, 2009)

Anything by Brendan Carroll, but my personal favorite is Tempo Rubato. http://www.amazon.com/Tempo-Rubato-ebook/dp/B002MPPOZW

A modern-day Mozart murder mystery. mmmm


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Gee, my colleagues at work threw me a breakfast when I was asked to read No Irish Need Apply at Booz Allen Hamilton. Anyone who disparages my books because they are self-published, I ignore. If they read them and then tell me they're crap, I'll listen up, and may even refund their money (it depends). 

I wear the stigma proudly and that's the only way to eradicate it. I am what I am. Of course, as an openly proud Gay man, I had practice at this sort of thing . . . and yes, becoming visibly self-published has many of the traumas of emerging from the closet, although you don't necessarily risk a beating. And those who pooh-pooh your work on that basis, are Indiephobes. But one important characteristic of the phobia is that the Indie author has as much fear about it as the cretin who dismisses you on those grounds. Wear it like a crown and, in time, the Indie-ness disappears as it should and you'll be just an author. Ask any one of the dead Indie authors. Ask Dickens. He'll tell ya, shades of Household Words and Master Humphrey's Clock. It's a grand tradition that has lost its financial risk. Hooray!

Edward C. Patterson.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

My favorites:

Jim Chambers:  Recollections --nostalgic look at the 50s
B.A. Wallace:  Fatherly Love -- great mystery set in Australia; VERY good.
David Baldwin: Snake Jazz -- Memoir of a baseball player before big contracts.  Very interesting.
Marva Dasef:  Quest for the Simurgh -- very YA (about 9) fantasy fiction.

edited to add: 
Karen McQuestion -- Lies I Told My Children Humorous life essays.  
J.A. Konrath -- The List

edited to add:

Frank Tuttle: Wistril Compleat  really fun fantasy adventure.  Suitable for YA and adults.  Loved it.


There's probably more...I'll have to check my reading list.  But all four of the above were standouts; very well-edited and very good stories.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I hear you, Ed.  I'm indie and I'm proud, too.  I really admire you. I just don't understand how you find all the hours in the day to do what you do.  Seems like you've got a billion books, you're on all the threads, and doing the Indie Spotlight.  I've been so distracted since publishing my two novels that I've hardly done any writing. I've neglected my work in progress YA novel.  And it seems like all I do is check sales. Good thing I don't have to live off those 35 cent royalties.


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## sierra09 (Jun 20, 2009)

If I had a better budget....or a Kindle I'd probably have more favorites but off the top of my head I can list without question:

Maureen Millers: Widow's Tale, Victory Cove and Rogue Wave.
Linda Welch: Along Came A Demon and Demon Hunters.
Trish Lamore: Painting the Roses Red.

There are more but my mind's blank right now.


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

The only stigma I worry about is from those who have actually read my work.  Beyond that, an author is an author, period.  There are good indie authors; and there are bad mainstream authors.  That an author is good or bad is dependent upon the author, not the venue.


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## backpackersguidebook.com (Apr 12, 2010)

donna callea said:


> Here's the thing. I've been an indie author since December. Self-publishing on Amazon has been a wonderful thing for me. I"m indie and I'm proud. But, still... When I tell friends and former co-workers (I used to be a newspaper reporter) that I've got two published e-books, they're impressed at first. But when they learn my novels are self-published, not so much.


Hey Donna,

I used to be in journalism, too. And sometimes the idea of getting published is when you've made it, so their reaction to you being self-published - instead of with a giant corporate entity - might be more to ease the self-imposed pressure that they still could make it really big.

Just like in music, a lot of indie acts and musicians have made an impact on mainstream radio. And, back in the day when college radio stations actually played it, indie music was the quirky stuff that recharged us to look at alternatives.

Remember when a particular editor just ripped your writing, added nonsensical material or wrote a misguiding headline? That's when I remember that "being an indie" is more of a blessing than a stigma/curse. 

(And well said above.. there are some bad mainstream authors who might just have a world-class agent!)


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## MH Sargent (Apr 8, 2010)

Great thread idea. I thoroughly enjoyed the indie book, "Punctured" by Rex Kusler. My family is in the self-storage business, and his book starts with a murder taking place at a self-storage facility in Las Vegas. That is what originally drew me to the book, but it was a fun, fun read. Very well done. 

M.H. Sargent


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## alainmiles (Apr 13, 2010)

Donna - You're absolutely right.  There's no better praise than when it comes from people whose work you admire.  I was lucky enough to have the support and assistance of writer colleagues all the way through the development of my novel as I posted it on a workshop site.  I'd count at least half a dozen of the books posted there amongst the best I've ever read - and my major, way back, was in literature.

Unfortunately most of them won't be published, or not yet anyway, because they've chosen the traditional agent -> publisher route, and that's a game of hazard.  For the major publishers, saleability is the first consideration: and quality is only one - and not necessarily the most important - factor.

My aim was never to see my name in print, but to communicate with readers.  And as an Indie writer, I can do that today.  Perhaps not, in these early days, with so many people yet.  But with control in my hands, I know it's up to me to build my market over time, trying new ideas, making my own decisions, making my own mistakes.  And like Ed, I'm proud to be doing it this way, delighted that we now have the freedom to do so.

But you've started something important here, Donna, encouraging us all to read and review one another.  The secret of success for the Indie writer is, I believe, having a great novel, but then also somehow moving it from the top shelf in a dark corner in a back-room in the store out into the display window.  To do that we need buzz and momentum.  So sign me up.  I'll be reviewing Indie writers here (...and on Amazon and Smashwords and wherever).


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Donna, 

Unfortunately, there IS a stigma attached to being Indie. The biggest complaint of readers? Indie books can be published by anyone with little or no editing. It's completely free, so anyone with a computer and an internet connection can publish. So, unfortunately, there are way too many people out there willing to publish unedited garbage, and those few drag the "Indie Name" through the mud.

Fortunately, there are many, many incredible Indie Authors out there making up for those few by publishing wonderful, well edited books.

I won't list my favorite Indie books, I have far too many. To see those, go to my site and look at all the 4 and 5 star reviews.  

I did purchase "The Haircut" and would like for you to contact me at [email protected], whenever you have time.

Thanks!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I agree with RedAdept.  There's a reason for the stigma, which is that anyone can publish anything.  Someone with a computer can upload 30,000 words of gibberish and call it a book if they want to.  Certainly those of us who are really devoted to our craft don't want to be lumped in with people who can't write a coherent sentence, but unfortunately both do fall under the umbrella of indie publishing.  The best we can do is turn out well-written, well-edited, well-formatted books so that people know that there ARE a lot of excellent indie books out there.

A couple I've enjoyed so far are "Easily Amused" by Karen McQuestion, and "Disturb" by J.A. Konrath.  I want to read Eliza Lorello's "Faking It" next, I think.  I really like the sample!


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

At present, the only other indie author I've read is Donnie Light. His book, _Dark Justice_, is pretty good. I think he just lowered the Kindle price to 99 cents, too.


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## HeatherWardell (Apr 14, 2010)

J Dean said:


> The only stigma I worry about is from those who have actually read my work.


I am putting this on my bulletin board. SUCH a great attitude!

My favourite indie book is R.J. Keller's "Waiting for Spring". Really strong writing, sympathetic characters.

Heather


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

HeatherWardell said:


> My favourite indie book is R.J. Keller's "Waiting for Spring".
> 
> Heather


For a minute I thought you typed _R Kelley's_ "Waiting for Spring"...and got a little sick...


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

RedAdept posted while I was working on my reply, but she essentially nailed it. I think the "stigma" is (rightfully) going away, but I don't think self-publishing is (or should be) necessarily seen as an "accomplishment." As Red said, the fact of the matter is that anyone with minimal computer skills (and no writing skills) can upload something on DTP or CS and call themselves an "indie author." So, I don't expect any kudos or acclaim for that alone. All I ask is that people give my stuff a try (if the description & sample appeal to them) and make up their own minds based on my actual writing -- and not dismiss my work as "vanity published" or whatever. And that's happening more and more, so I'm happy.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree with Waiting for Spring. Beautiful book.

Also, although Indie publishing has freed authors from the economic and editorial tyranny of the traditional world, it has also liberated us to create a mess of gibberish. I have something to say about validating your work and considering NOT publishing in my How to book. BUT, that being said, as Indies were are not above each other. If I write a dog and your write a Swan, the point is my dog has feathers and your swan barks. That is the beauty of Indie authorship. We liberate the word from the core of discrimination and in that egalitarian concept civilization is served. I mean not construct comparative judgments, because that only perpetuates the snobbery that makes catechisms of our art. I serve the reader and not other authors. I support other authors by helping them, whether they write the next classic or a backwards work that needs a divining rod to understand (although James Joyce has already done that). Nothing makes me rage like one author delimiting another and decrying that a dog makes their swan bark. I take no responsibility for my colleagues' work, but I do everything to help promote it.

Edward C. Patterson


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I think maybe we have to give readers more credit.  They're not likely to download garbage, even if it's free. And how many really bad indie books sell well?  i think you can usually tell from the description, reviews and samples what you're getting.  That said, the indie phenomenon on kindle caters to a wide variety of tastes and interests. What I like, you may not, and vice versa.  What ought to  bind serious indie writers together, in my opinion, is a dedication to keeping the quality as high as possible.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

"I think maybe we have to give readers more credit.  They're not likely to download garbage, even if it's free. And how many really bad indie books sell well?"

This is exactly what I've been saying elsewhere.  The indie books I see on the bestseller list have good samples and good cover art.  It's not just the low price that's making them bestsellers.  Amazon readers know to check the sample (a lot of us are sample addicts!) before we buy, and the good stuff is generally what rises to the top, it seems to me.  

That being said, when we tell people we're indie authors, they have no way of knowing whether our books are fabulous works of art or complete gibberish before they check them out, so it's not surprising if people don't seem terribly impressed at first.  But if they're not, tell them to take a look at your sample, so they can BE impressed!


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## OliviaD (Jul 21, 2009)

I've tried to read a number of fellow Indies since getting my Kindle.  Some, not so great, I have to admit, but some are just as well written and entertaining as any big-name from any publishing house and I am proud to be among them.  I know that my book is not perfect, but I like it and I think that others have enjoyed it as well.  Granted I would love to be picked up by a major publisher and become rich and famous like Anne Rice and have my book made into a movie, but I'm more of a realist than to expect it.  And another thing that I've always wondered:  How is that Stephen King's monster books always look so picture perfect?  Does he bang them out and then have an editor fix them up or does he perfect all the typos and grammar himself?  Just wondering...
Back on topic:  Love Trish Lamoree's "Painting the Red Roses"
                    Love R.J. Keller's "Waiting for Spring"
                    Love Adele Clagett's "Legend of Seahawk"

Favorites:  Maureen Miller's "Victory Cove" and "Widow's Tale"
Still TBR:  Edward Patterson's "Jade Owl", Coffee in the Gourd (which I've read a little and liked very much), Archer's "Elfhunter",  and a number of others.


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## ldenglish (Jul 18, 2009)

Yes there is still a stigma, but it's not as bad as it once was. Good Indie authors are now being recognized, particularly in blogs, message boards and networking websites. I don't care that these bloggers are not major publishers, they're READERS, and those are the people* I* want to reach.

I like this one by Elmore Hammes. I reviewed it for the LL Book Review.

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Fit-Human-Consumption-ebook/dp/B002U0M5QU/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

Linda


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Sometimes I think the stigma is getting better, sometimes I think it is getting worse. Before e-books, a vanity author would end up selling their books at a very high price, which lent a "you're not good, you just have money" vibe. The odds of a self-published author being read when the intro barrier is upwards of 10+ dollars is pretty low. But now we have e-books, and anyone can upload a book without any cost. This should increase the amount of dreck, but at the same time, more and more people can actually read and afford all these indie authors, especially with 0.99-2.99 costs. More readers means more reviews, which means a greater ability to find reliable information about all these books.

Throw in the ability to sample, and the risk gets lower, and the probability of a good book getting bought goes up. In my opinion, filtering through the bad indies is pretty easy. Review amounts are low, the description is poorly written, the cover looks like it was made in MS Paint in about 5 minutes, and even if I make it past that to a sample, the first couple paragraphs are more than enough to know if the writer knows what he or she is doing.

Will the stigma ever go away? Honesty, I think no. But I think people will become far more accepting to well-received indie books, and that's good enough for me.

David Dalglish


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## Author Eyes (Nov 26, 2009)

Years ago, before the Internet, my older sister used a vanity press to get her novel published. She paid hundreds of dollars to a scam artist publisher who charged her for "editing" etc. 

So, many years later, my novel came out as an ebook first (non-existent in my sister's time) from Girlebooks.com, and was later published by a small press (Librifiles). The publisher uses POD (CreateSpace) for distribution. I have been very thankful to not have been ripped off-- money should always flow TO the author.

Thank you Red Adept for all you do for us Indie authors!!


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Good point, Shelley.  Did the small press find you, or did you approach the publisher?  And I agree with you about Red Adept. She helps to validate the indie movement.  By the way, I've started to download samples of many of the indie novels recommended on this thread.  I look forward to lots of great reading.


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## HeatherWardell (Apr 14, 2010)

Nathan said:


> For a minute I thought you typed _R Kelley's_ "Waiting for Spring"...and got a little sick...


That's a very different thing, I'm sure.  And not exactly indie either!


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## Author Eyes (Nov 26, 2009)

donna callea said:


> Good point, Shelley. Did the small press find you, or did you approach the publisher? And I agree with you about Red Adept. She helps to validate the indie movement. By the way, I've started to download samples of many of the indie novels recommended on this thread. I look forward to lots of great reading.


Donna, it's a long story, but I'll make it short: an editor I had previously worked with met the ebook publisher at a conference and hooked us up to each other. Sales went well with the ebook, so Girlebooks created a print publishing arm so mine could be her first print book.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I've read some indies from this board and downloaded a ton of others based on samples or posts by the author.  I've given up on free books, because I'll never have time for them all and I'd rather read KB's indies.  

Buying something from a trad pub is no guarantee that the book will be well-written, well-formatted or even a good story.  I've been burned so many times that I stick to just a few well-known authors whose work I usually like.  Even that's no guarantee.  

For now, I'll stick to our own indies.

In Her Name Series - Mike Hicks
Historical Fiction - Jeff Hepple
Soul Series - Dennis Batchelder

Those three spring to mind, but I've read other good indies and have a bunch more that I'm sure I'll enjoy.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I will admit that in the dark days pre-Kindle. . . .if someone said they'd 'self-published' a book, I'd have definitely looked askance while the mind frantically raced to figure out the best way to tell them, "no thank you I don't care to read it".  (I had read one or two 'manuscripts' by folks that were. . . .well, not up to par, let's say.)

However, I have learned that there are a lot of excellent authors who just aren't with major publishers.  So much so that, when my boss at work mentioned she had a friend who wrote and self-published, I said, "oh really?  Does she publish on Kindle?  She should.  What's her name?"  And I looked her up and sent her an e-mail and told her to consider the e-book route along with the paper books.  (And invited her here.  ) Two or three years ago, I would probably have said, "oh really?  That's nice.  What's for lunch?"


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## ReeseReed (Dec 5, 2009)

J.L. Penn's "Reunion" is the best book I've read in quite awhile.  Since getting my iPod touch and kindle app, I've found so many indie books I've enjoyed...books I never would have known about before.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

There are some wonderful indie books out there. I think the stigma is dying, and will continue to die until it's stone cold dead.  Kindle and other ereaders are changing everything.

We all know that most major publishers won't read manuscripts. We all know that agents are swamped and usually can't read manuscripts sent their way. There are wonderful novels out there that publishers or agents won't read. Jerzy Kosinski once subbed around one of his award-winning novels under a false name; everybody rejected it.

But you once NEEDED the professional publishers to get your book to readers. Otherwise the books would sit in your basement or the trunk of your car. But now anyone can upload a book to Kindle. And if it's good enough, word of mouth will spread. Reviews will trickle in. And you'll find readers.

And you have full control. YOU choose the cover art. YOU set the price. YOU collect the profits (after Amazon's taken its share -- and Amazon takes a MUCH smaller piece of the pie than most publishers do).

So why not go indie?

Sure, there are many mediocre indie books out there. But there are many mediocre books published by the big publishers, too.

My fantasy novel Firefly Island







was published three years ago in hardcover. The publisher was Five Star, a small imprint of a major publisher (Thomson Gale). But for the Kindle edition, I went with a small, start-up, indie publisher, and I'm much happier this way. I love how I have so much more control. And I'm still finding new readers every day.

I love that you want to support other indie authors! One thing I love about Kindles (and other ereaders) is that indies are so easy to find now. I'll definitely be trying out some of the authors on this thread.

Daniel
http://www.DanielArenson.com


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

DArenson said:


> But for the Kindle edition, I went with a small, start-up, indie publisher, and I'm much happier this way. I love how I have so much more control. And I'm still finding new readers every day.
> 
> Daniel
> http://www.DanielArenson.com


That's one of the many wonderful things about the Kindle and Amazon. I doubt if I would find as many new readers in a B&M store as I do on Amazon.


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## altworld (Mar 11, 2010)

We are independents therefore we are vanity publishers, we self-publish our work for free. Some of us are really good writers, some of us are okay and a lot of us mediocre to really awful.

That is the stigma of being an independent... We have not been vetted by an age old publishing system that is extremely hard to break into as the gatekeepers, the Literary Agents, treat you like the excrement they sometimes find on there shoes. To these gatekeepers we are nothing unless they see a way of making money out of us.

Almost all of us here that self-publish have gone through, or have going through the insane cycle of query letters, synopsis and other hoops to get these gatekeepers attention. Really some of the submission guidelines are anal to say the least, waiting for them to say we only read submissions that arrive every fifth Sunday in a month... Maddening...

I've chosen to self-publish to drive myself to make my work better, to see if my target audience would accept a book like None Good, and to frankly to use it to drive my second book onwards. We want to share our work, and we want the validation that comes with that.

Remember with all written works there is good and bad even in the printed world. When you see something as badly done as Twilight (my opinion - although I think by the fourth book she knew she could write anything and get away with it) have such a huge success, then you know one person poppy bricks are another persons gold mine. Simply put if you are not writing what the publishing worlds trend is, or not established in the publishing world you do not stand a snowballs chance in hell in getting a Literary Agents attention. Question is who do you want to pander too?

I am an Indie, and like Indies all other the world I am proud of the freedom it gives me to create and I attempt to give my audience the best damn work I can. And just like every Indie I would love to get signed... Until then I will work my craft and see where it take me.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I also forgot to say, Bravo RedAdept.

I didn't make a list of the great Indie books that I've read, because I've read so many and written reviews of a percentage of them. I would like to mention one other Indie attribute, which is inspired by such places as Kindleboards. The BIG named authors are celebrities, accessible and intimate on the page, but "don't know, yer, don;t know yer, dont know yer" otherwise. Indie authors are acccessible on-line, in Klubs, by email and in forums. The interaction between reader and author should never be underestimated for its effect. Traditional authors depend on their publishers to determine "who" the reader's are and what they might like. I treasure receiving feedback directly from a reader, and then think of that reader as I write my next book. I often have a reader to thank for an inspired stretch of writing that may not have existed otherwise (the stretch, not the reader) and I can look back at that stretch, smiling in my heart at the source.

Edward C. Patterson


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## backpackersguidebook.com (Apr 12, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Traditional authors depend on their publishers to determine "who" the reader's are and what they might like. I treasure being receiving feedback directly from a reader, and then think of that reader as I write my next book. I often have a reader to thank for an inspired stretch of writing that may not have existed otherwise (the stretch, not the reader) and I can look back at that stretch, smiling in my heart at the source.


Well stated, Ed.

When you need an agent, your publisher, your publicist, several editors and an official meeting to inform you who your readers are.. that's when it gets absurd. For the majority of indie artists/writers, they are pleased and willing to chat for a few minutes, listen to feedback and actually give a damn about their audience.

Indie is good.


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## Gus Flory (Oct 13, 2009)

There's a stigma due to quality being hit-and-miss as so many writers rush in, editors and experience be damned.

But I like to think of us as pioneers. A new frontier has opened and we are exploring it and staking our claim. Right now, it's the Wild West out there, and we indies are lucky to be in the right place at the right time with finished books in hand.

J.A. Konrath already found the first gold nugget. Others will, too, but many more will remain empty handed after much effort.

Eventually, the e-book market might settle down and become civilized. The money men will move in and take over and the gatekeepers could close the frontier. It seems Steve Jobs and the big publishing houses are trying to keep a lid on things before we can really get going. But Amazon and several others are leaving us a window of opportunity.

That being said, I haven't told anyone at work about my "published" sci-fi novel. This whole e-book thing could go the way of blogging where everyone has one, quality varies widely, and very few people make a living at it.

Maybe, as e-readers take off and approach ubiquity, we have an advantage being first on the ground. Hopefully, some of us will hit it big and build careers off this whole business. I think we are fortunate to be here now.

Gus


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

All,

To be fair, I have read, or have attempted to read, a total of 11 Indie books in the last 6 months. I can say without hesitation that I personally have found some Indie work to be comparable (even better?) to traditional works. 

Being a sports fan, please allow me to make this analogy with mixed martial arts (MMA): until 5 or 6 years ago, this was a fringe sport, looked down upon by the sports world. With good leadership, a great product line, and some word of mouth advertising, it has now surpassed boxing as most figting fans' sport of choice. I've read reports that it will soon (within 4 years) be second to only pro football in overall popularity among men.

With an impressive product line from top-notch authors, good leadership to help guide and direct us (Red, Dennis, Ed P, Greg, etc...), the readers will take note and place us on equal footing.

That said -- and I don't say this to be cruel -- to succeed, we must find a way to make sub-par material better before it is presented. As prices go up, readers are likely to become more selective. A couple of consecutive bad books by Indies might sour a potential life-long customer from trying a third. 

All told, I have read 11 Indie books in the last six months. If I was a reviewer, I'd strongly recommend 3, "just" recommend 3, and throw 5 in the garbage. I don't know what the ratio is in the mainstream, but can it be that if I picked 11 maintream books at random (in my genre(s)), nearly half would go into the garbage?

With that, here are 3 of the 5...just kidding! These are 3 of the 11 I've read thus far that I'd strongly recommend to anyone in search of a great read:

Reunion
The Red Church
The Weight of Blood

Respectfully,

Ed


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

Ed_ODell said:


> That said -- and I don't say this to be cruel -- to succeed, we must find a way to make sub-par material better before it is presented. As prices go up, readers are likely to become more selective. A couple of consecutive bad books by Indies might sour a potential life-long customer from trying a third.


While I agree with this - and I really do because I feel like I'm beginning to notice a bit of an elitist attitude even within the indie community but the only way to make things better is to support and help each other improve - who becomes the gatekeeper? Just because you can only strongly recommend 3 out of 11 books doesn't mean that everyone else would feel the same way. I've read a couple of well recommended books now that have lots of 5 star reviews and I've hated them (same can be said for trad books too). If I wasn't open to indie writers then I would probably think I'd hate them all but I've also read some as yet unnoticed indie books that I thought were amazing but another person could easily think they were trash.

Personal preferences and taste ultimately count for more than reviews so how do we keep raising the standards? A lot of indies seem to be opposed to any form of criticism, even if it could be helpful (maybe it's a writer thing rather than an indie thing ) so how do we ensure that most indie books end up reaching a professional, well polished standard? I'm genuinely interested to see if anyone has any thoughts/suggestions on this.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

There are plenty of writers open to honest negative feedback. IMO they often tend to be very good writers, and it's those who can't take criticism, or can't take being judged, who tend to stink and to keep on stinking.

I think Amazon reviews can in fact provide an indie author a useful hint as to writing quality, not on an individual basis (there was one reviewer who gave me 5 stars and I checked and found she'd given Cormac McCarthy 1 star. LOL.) but aggregated. Take a look at all the scores. Analyze all the comments and look for commonalities. Then self-police. Take another pass at the full ms before publishing, for example.

Self-policing is needed because no one can stop anyone from being published nowadays, but I don't actually believe there'll be a whole lot of self-policing going on. (And besides, if you're not a good writer, then do you really have the skills to judge your own work? To self-police well?)

Amazon's system of free samples and recommending and reviews and review scores do weed to a decent extent already but over time I think there will need to be, at a minimum, more Red Adepts, a system of criticism for indies to help readers focus on the better books. As it stands there are plenty of Kindle owners who say it's too labor intensive to seek out the gems from among the indies and don't try.


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## Ricky Sides (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi there,

I am an Indie. I publish my books on Kindle and at smashwords.com. But I am also published by the audio book publisher Books in Motion. I was examining that audio book product page when I stumbled upon the link that suggests you inform the publisher, if you'd like to see the book released as a Kindle book. That led to the release of the book in the Kindle store.

The vetting process at Books in Motion is tough. But that process helps authors to hone their craft. Book one of my peacekeeper series was accepted as it was written. But book two wasn't. I was told I had to improve the book, if I wanted to make it as a writer. I was given a short list of things I needed to improve. That process led to extensive revisions of the rest of the series, because I didn't just apply what I had learned from the publisher to book two. I applied it to the rest of the series as well.

Then book one of my series received a one star review from a man who pointed out errors. Once again, I applied what I had learned and revised the books to correct those errors. I apologized to my readers, and offered free copy coupons to the Kindle community.



farrellclaire said:


> Personal preferences and taste ultimately count for more than reviews so how do we keep raising the standards? A lot of indies seem to be opposed to any form of criticism, even if it could be helpful (maybe it's a writer thing rather than an indie thing ) so how do we ensure that most indie books end up reaching a professional, well polished standard? I'm genuinely interested to see if anyone has any thoughts/suggestions on this.


You ask a good question. Our books are our babies. It does hurt when someone doesn't like them, but we should always listen to the feedback. Unfortunately, some writers are unwilling to change anything. I was recently asked to review a short story by an Indie. After reading a few pages of the story, I corresponded with the author and advised her that it was filled with numerous errors. I pointed out the errors and suggested a revision. She rejected that suggestion. You cannot help people who refuse to help themselves.

The Kindle market has opened the door of opportunity for writers. But it has also opened the door of opportunity for editors and cover designers. I think eventually several people with these skill sets will join the community and offer their services at reduced prices.

I also think that, at some point, an independent writer's guild may form. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't already. Such a guild could help establish quality control. Membership in that guild could help to reassure the readers that the writer's skill has been vetted to a specific degree. A panel of guild members could examine an author's book to ensure that it passes membership quality levels before an author is admitted into the guild.

To a degree, such a hypothetical guild would become the gatekeepers for Indies. The downside is that such a guild could lead to an elitist attitude. "Look at me! I'm a guild member and you are not!" But from what I've seen of Indies, the chances are slim that this would happen on a wide scale. Some Indies wouldn't want to be involved in such a guild. They love their independent status.

As for me, I'd want to see the rules. Would the guild get involved in marketing by setting price points members must use? Would the guild dictate marketing strategy? Most independents will not lightly give up their independence. Such a hypothetical guild should be geared toward quality assurance, and stay out of the rest of the writer's business.

Of course finding the right people to organize such a guild would be problematic. A panel of members could run such a guild. Make it an odd number, so that there would never be a tie vote. But who has the time needed to devote to such a time consuming project? Not many of us have that much time to spare. Some of us have none. Ed Patterson has the organizational skills. Yet he has a lot of irons in the fire. Dave Conifer has the mindset for a good guild panel member. Archer, Sierra, Maria, Jim Chambers and David Derrico are similarly suited. But all of these people are busy with projects.

A Kindle independent writer's guild may form some day. If that happens, I'll be checking that out.

I've read some very good books by Indies. Ed Patterson, Archer, and Dave Conifer all impress me. I'm sure that the other authors I've mentioned will too. I've got to find the time to read their books soon.

Have a great day,
Ricky


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

What do you guys make of Fictionwise?

To upload your ebook to Fictionwise, you need to have sold ten pieces to professional (no vanity press) publishers.  This is what I'm reading on their website.

In five years, will Kindle, iBookstore, and other ebook stores still be open to indies?  Or will they go the Fictionwise route?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Ann:

Thank you for you post. It's reader feedback, and reader feedback only that helps us to outrun our doubts. It is reader opinion, and reader opinion only that will eradicate any stigma that exists. 

Ed Patterson


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## lib2b (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm just a reader, not an author, but I think the stigma isn't going away any time soon, and I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about the stigma. That is not to say that individual indie authors can't overcome that stigma by being really awesome, but to me, one great indie author does not wipe out the stigma from the whole concept. The reputation of one indie author who publishes quality work can perhaps make a reader believe the idea that it's possible for indie authors to put out quality work, but the good reputation of indie author _A_ doesn't mean a reader is then going to trust that all/most indie authors also put out quality work because there's no relation. It's not like if a reader says, oh, I like what I've read so far that Tor publishes, so I'm going read more books they put out; a reader can trust that one Tor book will probably meet the same quality standards that another Tor book will, regardless of author, in a way that a reader _can't_ trust that the quality standards will be the same from one indie author to another. For books that are published through traditional publishing houses, readers see those books as having gone through some sort of "quality control" for lack of a better term. Readers know that those books probably went through several rounds of editing, probably at least the author's agent and editor both gave feedback on it, at the very least it will hopefully contain fewer/no distracting typos and grammatical errors.

As I said, I do think individual indie authors can rise above the stigma and build positive reputations for themselves and their work, and as a result, be very successful independents that people trust for putting out quality work. I think these tend to be the people who take their writing and publishing seriously, who do edit and do design nice covers and treat quality of writing and quality of presentation as very important, like it seems many of the indie authors on here do. That being said, from what I've read (and I have given quite a few independent authors a chance, not necessarily from these boards, and found some decent, a couple good, but most really...not good); indie authors in general do not necessarily equal indie authors here on Kindle boards.

Hopefully I'm not being too much of a downer. If I were an author, I love the idea of having total control over my book. Having that total control means if you do find success as an indie author, you totally earned it through a quality product, hard work, and perseverance because you don't have a big publishing house putting your book into bookstores where the casual browser can find it or even at Walmart or Target where even more eyes might see it, you don't have it marketed by anyone but yourselves.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Eric C said:


> Amazon's system of free samples and recommending and reviews and review scores do weed to a decent extent already but over time I think there will need to be, at a minimum, more Red Adepts, a system of criticism for indies to help readers focus on the better books.


Oh, Eric wants to clone me? Wow! That's a compliment.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Author Eyes said:


> Thank you Red Adept for all you do for us Indie authors!!


Thank you, Shelley, but I must note that I don't do it just for you guys. I love to read. Finding Indie authors has opened up a whole new "bookshelf" for me.

I have found so many wonderful books to read that I never would have known of had I not gotten a Kindle. Yours is one of the "wonderful" ones, for sure!


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Stigma? What, stigma?   We sell ourselves, not our books. The two should ot fall far from each other. Buy my books, you buy me, and even if you wouldn;t me the true me to tread on your carpeting, make no doubt about it . . . I'll respect your furniture, but I'll clean your refrigerator out. Stigma? What stigma? The one that will keep me from your door? That and the Lowman shield won't do it, so why bother.   

PS: the above statement has been reposted to the Extempor thread in an effort to kill two Lowman shields with one cliche.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

farrellclaire said:


> Just because you can only strongly recommend 3 out of 11 books doesn't mean that everyone else would feel the same way. I've read a couple of well recommended books now that have lots of 5 star reviews and I've hated them (same can be said for trad books too).


farrellclaire,

Point taken. I should have been clearer here. 5 of the 11 were poorly edited. Many were great stories, but the books contained simply too many errors. I should have said "three that are of top quality, three that are of good quality, and 5 that should have been edited more before publishing."

As for who does the gatekeeping, that will definitely NOT be me. I've read some interesting comments, but would not support any mechanism that excludes others from pursuing their passions.

Respectfully,

Ed


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Thanks for the mention, Reese! 

I agree that the stigma has to do with the fact that anyone can publish anything, and there's certainly sufficient crap out there.  It's a shame.  I also think that there's a general perception that being self-published means you weren't good enough for a traditional publisher.

I am a terrible hypocrite it seems b/c I have yet to read a book by an indie author.  Although, it's not because of the stigma, it's just a matter of a ridiculously long TBR list and the fact that hype and great reviews are so much more prevalent for traditionally published books (hence our collective desire to get a traditional publisher).  Having said that, Elisa Lorello's Faking It is next up on my list.  She has become a Facebook friend of mine and I honestly can't believe agents and/or publishers aren't beating down her door with the sales she's had.  A bit discouraging I think.  I also think she's fabulously witty.  Reese's Childproofed is also near the top of my TBR list now.

Book readers seem to be rather akin to music fans.  There are those listeners that download only the hits they hear on the radio - similarly, there are those readers who will only read the bestsellers.  There are those listeners who shun the big names and seek out indies, taking pride in finding the hidden gems - those exist in the book world too (and thank heavens for them!).  By and large, I think that the people who are avid enough readers to frequent any sort of book forum are going to be a bit more open-minded to indie books than the population at large, and it probably doesn't hurt that we're all subtley (or not-so-subtley) brainwashing them and luring them in.  

-Jenn


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## backpackersguidebook.com (Apr 12, 2010)

Ricky Sides said:


> ...Then book one of my series received a one star review from a man who pointed out errors. Once again, I applied what I had learned and revised the books to correct those errors. I apologized to my readers, and offered free copy coupons to the Kindle community.
> ...
> I also think that, at some point, an independent writer's guild may form. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't already. Such a guild could help establish quality control. Membership in that guild could help to reassure the readers that the writer's skill has been vetted to a specific degree. A panel of guild members could examine an author's book to ensure that it passes membership quality levels before an author is admitted into the guild.


Ricky's got a great point here about a potential group/association to do some voluntary quality control for writers, similar to the peer editing from educational publications. Perhaps it can be organized in a similar way.

And like Ed ODell inferred, too many errors can prevent someone from enjoying the material. And moments like that can re-establish the "indie" stigma - even if it comes from a small-to-mid-sized publisher.

In part, it's laziness - by the indies, by the big publishing gurus, it doesn't matter. If someone can't spend another day to run spellcheck, proofread the grammar in a publication or make sure the final product looks good, then that book deserves to be thrown away.

Take an online seminar for grammar 101, get an addition spelling/grammar checking program, whatever it may be.. once those errors are fixed, then the content will shine and truly determine if it's a good read.

And lib2b's comments are not a downer. More like a wake-up call. When I've seen a book on sale for more than $15 and the description has spelling/grammatical flaws ("the writeing", double negatives, no punctuation, run-on sentences), I'll turn the page - indie or professional.

_(Oh, and Ed - on a different note - MMA won't rise that high in popularity, especially when a burnt-out fool like Dana White keeps shooting himself in the foot every few months. )_


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## Nathan (Nov 13, 2009)

This thread is a great crucible to look at political theory.   Really?  Yes.

1.) A structured bureaucracy exists.

2.) A group of disenfranchised folks rebel and do things there own way. (yes Red...homonym pun  )

3.) There is a period of complete lawlessness.

4.) Original disenfranchised group proposes new bureaucracy to quell the lawlessness.

Go to step 1 and repeat until the end of time.

In just 50 comments, it has gone from the great appeal of "doing things your own way" to the creation, in theory, of a guild.

I'm not harping on anyone, I just find it fascinating to watch.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

As an author, we and we alone are responsible for our art. As Indie publishers, we and we alone are responsible for everything else. That's the beauty of this thingy that we doey. We can support each other (and we do - I couldn't have gotten through Look Away Silence intact without Mike's Author Support Thread, and say as much in the book's acknowledgment), we can help promote our efforts (


Spoiler



Indie Spotlight - plug, plug


), we can band together for worthy causes (


Spoiler



OEBD


), but ultimately our perfume or our BO (Book Odor) is ours and ours alone. Not one of us is responsible to vett another, and to think that we are, is missing the boat. It's me and my reader(s) - the Queen Mary or the Titanic, and no sea of stigmatic icebergs make much of a difference when it comes to that relationship.

Ed Patterson

BTW: Hello to all the readers reading this thread, and chime in and please put us in our place. One reader has, with perhaps the most important observation of them all. Did anyone catch it? Huh? Huh?


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I think Ricky's idea of an independent authors guild is a good one, though probably impossible to implement. All professions have guilds or memberships of some kind.  Serious indie authors are professional.  We take our art-- and our craft-- very seriously.  The problem is, lots of people self-publish simply because they can.  It's easy and fun and free.  Many have probably never even considered querying a literary agent.  Too much trouble. For those folks, self-publishing on Kindle or smashwords is the same thing as going the vanity press route, only it's free. They do it for their own amusement. And there's nothing wrong with that.  I don't want to stop them.

But there's got to be a way for us to distinguish ourselves from them-- to let readers know we're in a different category.  That we've gone through some hoops.  That the only reason we're not traditionally published is because it's nearly impossible for a new author to get a break.  Or maybe we're square pegs trying to fit into round holes.  But we have stories to tell.  Good stories. And we're willing to sell them at very, very reasonable prices.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> As an author, we and we alone are responsible for our art. As Indie publishers, we and we alone are responsible for everything else. That's the beauty of this thingy that we doey. We can support each other (and we do - I couldn't have gotten through Look Away Silence intact without Mike's Author Support Thread, and say as much in the book's acknowledgment), we can help promote our efforts (
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I agree, Ed. We're not just indie because our walls are papered with rejection letters. We're indie because Amazon has given us the means and we have the guts to put ourselves out there. We're independent and we like it.

We have our beta-readers and Mike's support thread and other threads that give us tips on promoting, etc., but ultimately, we are responsible for our own product.

I had my own wholesale business for ten years, and if I didn't give my customers a quality product, they would have dropped me. It's no different in the publishing world, whether indie or trad. If we don't give the consumer a quality product, we'll get dropped.

Maybe someday we'll be saying to authors with publishers and editors and agents and publicists ... _Couldn't make it on your own, huh? _


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

No rejection walls. Had an agent (a good one, who helped a lot). Worked with traditional publishing and am an ex-Marketing director. Now I'll join a support group, but I am distinguished by my own work and not because of the Indie Guild of Better-than-the-Run-of-the-Mill-work-that-my-Fellow-would-be-could-be-artists publishing seal of approval posted beside my book covers. However, I am available to design the logo . . . now let me see . . .   What happened to good old Buyer beware and pig-in-a-poke and "I'll gladly pay you for a Hamburger tomorrow if you let me eat one today." ??   

Miss Chatty
BTW, I love this dialog. It's better than a trip to the therapist or a stiff drink of Hemmingway's favorite Gin.


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## Carol Hanrahan (Mar 31, 2009)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Maybe someday we'll be saying to authors with publishers and editors and agents and publicists ... _Couldn't make it on your own, huh? _


LOL!


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## alainmiles (Apr 13, 2010)

OK, so there's a stigma.  Our friends and readers think less of us because we've chosen to publish independently. So it ever was and ever will be - every time technology changes.  When print replaced the illuminated manuscript there was fury that ownership of books was no longer the sole preserve of the Church.  Printer/publishers were burned at the stake for daring to make their Bibles available to the common man, and Heaven preserve us, no longer in Latin.

I can live with our kind of stigma.

What's really happening here is that a new technology - electronic publishing - means that the rules are changing, just as they did with print.  After print came the novel.  After e-publishing, who knows? But it'll probably be the independent, free-thinking writers who lead the way, while traditional publishers try to shore up the old methods.  (They want to increase the price of ebooks - please!)

How long will it be, for example, before we realize that a cover doesn't need to be a static image?  Or that simulating the turning of a page on an e-reader is just cheesy?  Or that books could be designed to allow multi-reader participation? (I understand that this is already happening with the Bible, which is once again leading the way.)  I'm willing to bet it's the independents who will work it out first.  They've already worked out that there's a much wider reading market than anyone imagined - if the price is set right.  (Talk to Mr Konrath.)

Of course there will be poor writers, just as there are poor businessmen, uneducated voters, bad husbands.  But they usually get found out.  And life goes on.

Ah - just seen Gertie Kindle's comment - love it!


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Do I care about the Indie Stigma? Not a bit. The books I've self-published would never have seen the light of day if Amazon hadn't made self-publishing so easy.

I went the self-published route because I wanted to publish a book I'd written about my mother's family while my mother and I were both still living. I knew that if I wrote query letters until the end of time I couldn't sell it to a traditional publisher because it was too big and contained too many long and tedious facts. 

The first reality during the publishing process was that I was completely alone: No agent or editor to tell me where I'd gone adrift, no proof-reader to fix all my typos, no art department to design covers, no advertising and marketing departments. But - soon after publishing I began to get help from other authors and readers that I met on the internet. To name a few: Leslie steered me here, Ed advised me about the process, Ann, Joshua and Mike helped me with formatting while Kindleboards members sent me lists of typos. Now I'm no longer alone. I get advice, encouragement, proof-reading and technical help from a dozen or so wonderful people that I've never met but who I count among my dearest friends.

Some people like my books, some people hate them, but there are people reading them and my mother has her book. Stigma be damned.


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## sierra09 (Jun 20, 2009)

backpackersguidebook.com said:


> In part, it's laziness - by the indies, by the big publishing gurus, it doesn't matter. If someone can't spend another day to run spellcheck, proofread the grammar in a publication or make sure the final product looks good, then that book deserves to be thrown away.
> 
> Take an online seminar for grammar 101, get an addition spelling/grammar checking program, whatever it may be.. once those errors are fixed, then the content will shine and truly determine if it's a good read.


I don't think it's laziness in some cases and I certainly don't believe any book deserves to be thrown away or in the case of ebooks, deleted. 
Since joining this board, I've been reading more Indie authors and books than mainstream(though I still pick up a few of those) but maybe it's because I'm picky on what I read or something but I've never come across one that deserved that honor or had serious issues. Now, that could also be because I don't read to pick out the mistakes of others. Yes, a typo here and there I may notice but heck I pick those out of Nora's books on and off. 
An author can spend months checking, checking, editing, proofing or even having their piece edited and still someone will come along and pick out something wrong. Yes, some books may be just put out there as is(but that also may not be to laziness but if the author did the best that could be with what he/she had then that's what came out.) If an author doesn't understand grammar to begin with or just had a basic course in it and maybe can't learn what others want them to then online courses(which may or may be be afforded) wouldn't help.

The attitude toward Indies I've come across more has to do with the old stigma of Vanity presses not the more recent Indie publishing as we know it. I've come across more attitude from people wanting others to write in a certain way. Not every author will write in perfect sentences. They won't have perfect grammar or perfect punctutaion or don't have access to everything needed but are told until they do they shouldn't write?

Not everyone's opinion on those things are the same. Just like not everyone enjoys the same books.
There is constructive critisicsm(yes, I spelled that wrong but the dictionary is buried) and then there are just the cruel opinions of others. Those don't help anyone and that's often just what some authors need. Help. Often we're open to the suggestions of others to improve our work but for some cases and this is what I don't think people understand is that some authors may not be able to improve on what they're told because they don't understand the changes that are needed. Does that sound stupid? Maybe but it's often the case. That doesn't mean they shouldn't write or can't tell a story. It just means that they didn't have access to everything that other authors have.

Sorry for the rant and long post which wasn't as articulate as I wanted it to be since I know what I want to say but it wouldn't come out.


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## mamiller (Apr 28, 2009)

Amen, Jeff!

As far as the ladies are concerned at my Grandmother's 'home', I'm a star author.    For me it's all worth it just to see my Grandmother gloat.  Stigma be damned!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

The "stigma" honestly doesn't bother me.  I guess I'm used to it.  When I was first published back in the Stone Age, people said, "Oh, a romance?  That's nice.  When are you going to write a REAL book?"  When I started writing for a small e-publisher, people said, "An ebook?  You mean it's just on the computer?  Okay, but when will it be released as a REAL book?"  

I think genre authors and ebook authors get a lot of this.  I imagine we as indie authors will get quite a bit of it too.  It fails to concern me much as long as readers enjoy my writing!


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

"If someone can't spend another day to run spellcheck, proofread the grammar in a publication or make sure the final product looks good, then that book deserves to be thrown away."

I really hope no one is relying on spellcheck as their book approaches final.  There was a long post on Teleread not long ago talking about how indie books are full of errors such as reign/rein, affect/effect, bare/bear, etc., and one way those kind of errors slip in is relying on spellcheck.


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

Now, this does beg a question: are some indie categories more "stigmatized" than others?

And the second question (unrelated): ever notice that if you say the word "stigma" too many times, it becomes meaningless?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

J Dean said:


> Now, this does beg a question: are some indie categories more "stigmatized" than others?
> 
> And the second question (unrelated): ever notice that if you say the word "stigma" too many times, it becomes meaningless?


stigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigmastigma

There, we just got rid of it. 

When I tell people I self-pubbed through Amazon, they get all excited and want to know how to do it. Then I give them my card and if they like my genre, they buy the book.


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## Ricky Sides (Sep 16, 2009)

Bravo Sierra. That was well said. I've worked with a young man from Belgium who had a story to tell, but was attempting to tell it in English. His native language is French, so you can imagine the issues he had. But his little story was a gem in the rough. I'm glad I mentored that young man who is so happy to have the story on his own website for his friends to enjoy. But he never did understand the intricacies of composing the story in English. I ended up heavily editing it to say what he meant it to say.

Ed, I see now why no guild has formed.

Nathan, the theoretical guild I referenced would enforce nothing. Membership would just ensure readers that the writer had been vetted to a degree. That would counter the stigma of being an Indie. If an author submitted a book that was below standard, the guild could work with the author to the extent of advising him or her what needed work. Once the author has produced an acceptable book, then he or she could resubmit it to the guild.

I'm not trying to start a guild. Nor am I seeking to encourage others to do so. I just expressed surprise that no one had started one yet. I'm not even sure I would seek to join such a hypothetical guild. Even if I wanted to do so, I might not make the cut. I'm one of those people who has trouble with grammar and punctuation.  

Have a great day folks,
Ricky


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## backpackersguidebook.com (Apr 12, 2010)

sierra09 said:


> An author can spend months checking, checking, editing, proofing or even having their piece edited and still someone will come along and pick out something wrong. Yes, some books may be just put out there as is(but that also may not be to laziness but if the author did the best that could be with what he/she had then that's what came out.) If an author doesn't understand grammar to begin with or just had a basic course in it and maybe can't learn what others want them to then online courses(which may or may be be afforded) wouldn't help.


Sierra, that's a good point. Similar to Ricky's experience, I'm not necessarily talking about non-native speakers translating their material into another language.

I'm somewhat referring to the whole industry. It's not about expecting perfection at all, but respect for readers or viewers. Blatant errors on news programs, electronic books just copied from a website without reformatting, shoddy editing in a $24.95 hardcover book from a major publisher.. Maybe it's something that rubbed off in journalism school, but if a newspaper or news organization has some poor editing, then people might question the validity of the content (even if this may seem to be a silly conclusion).

Perhaps the transition from self-editing to creating an editing guild might not be an idea to go with. But establishing something - like a code, criteria, standard, etc. - is something to look toward, depending on the genre of the book/author. Obviously if the style is intentional, like e.e. cummings' lack of capitalization, then please continue with it.

But paying nearly $25 for a hardcover book that should have gone through the mega-publishing editing/proofreading routine and finding amateur mistakes.. in a way, that's almost a win for indie authors because it might make people second-guess a major publishing house's concern/respect for their readers. Maybe Gertie's on to something..


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## Greenkeeper (Mar 16, 2010)

I've worked hard in my short time in this business to try to shake off my own "bad indie author" stigma. When I first started earlier this year I knew all about grammer and spellchecking (I don't know how many times I edited my first book, and I'll probably go over it once more after I get my second online) but I knew nothing about eBook formatting or how to market myself. I didn't even have cover art. I have a long way to go but I believe I have started down the write path. This is why I hesitate to agree that the majority of self-publishers are bad when many are merely inexperienced. If they fail to learn from their early mistakes then they might have a problem, but I think over time the market as a whole will improve.

The idea of a guild sounds neat as long as it's not too intrusive. Indie writing is about the freedom to write when and how you want, so the last thing we need is an organization trying to act as another stumbling block between us and the readers. A loose organization to help proofread, format, review, help with cover art, etc would be great, but the fear that I think many authors would have is that it'd devolve into another crowd of elites telling them their work isn't good enough to join their club.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Bravo Sierra. Bravo Gertie. Bravo and Amen, Jeff. And BTW, Stigma spelled backwards is Amgits (rhymes with Armpits - well, not really, but e e. commings would have made it rhyme.) Off to see Kick Ass in the theater.

Edward C Nosrettap


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

PS: The best finishing touches editing machine is the Kindle's text-to-speech, which I use now (alas too late - although I've applied it after the fact) and lovingly call it Katie the Kindlespreche. Try it. You'll like it.

Ed you know who


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

sierra09 said:


> The attitude toward Indies I've come across more has to do with the old stigma of Vanity presses not the more recent Indie publishing as we know it. I've come across more attitude from people wanting others to write in a certain way. Not every author will write in perfect sentences. They won't have perfect grammar or perfect punctutaion or don't have access to everything needed but are told until they do they shouldn't write?
> 
> Not everyone's opinion on those things are the same. Just like not everyone enjoys the same books.


I so agree with this - the best pieces of writing I have ever read, hands down, were by a lady who didn't use full stops or capitalisation. She was allergic to grammar and punctuation and she had the most smooth, flowing writing style I've ever had the pleasure to read. I wish she would self publish! The world is missing out because people have always told her she doesn't write the way she should. She has a specific voice that works, why should she follow other people's rules?

@ Jeff - what you said hit on what I wanted to say. It's great that you have a support system in place but most of us, especially starting out but even afterwards, are entirely alone. We could all use that kind of help and that is sort of what I was going for before. Not really a quality guild but more of a bigger circle of indies willing to help each other out with proof reading, advice, etc., especially newbies. It's probably not even workable. I'm sure that most people who are really serious about their work are aching for a chance to improve upon it but a lot of people don't know where to start and don't know where to go to get contacts, etc. There are people willing to guide others but there are so many new writers springing up all the time that it is impossible to help them all.

Also, there is some strange sort of stigma within the whole indie thing. I've seen people say, "Oh, I'm not _that _ sort or indie"  or the attitude that one genre is less worthy than another. We may all be independents but in a way we have to work together to progress. Some of us write for a wider audience than others and some of us are happy to write for a small niche audience but that doesn't mean one is better than the other.


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## Author Eyes (Nov 26, 2009)

RedAdept said:


> Thank you, Shelley, but I must note that I don't do it just for you guys. I love to read. Finding Indie authors has opened up a whole new "bookshelf" for me.
> 
> I have found so many wonderful books to read that I never would have known of had I not gotten a Kindle. Yours is one of the "wonderful" ones, for sure!


Aww, thanks Red.


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## kellyabell (Sep 4, 2009)

sierra09 said:


> If I had a better budget....or a Kindle I'd probably have more favorites but off the top of my head I can list without question:
> 
> Maureen Millers: Widow's Tale, Victory Cove and Rogue Wave.
> Linda Welch: Along Came A Demon and Demon Hunters.
> ...


I have to agree with Maureen Miller. She's got wonderful talent
I also recommend a number of authors over on the Paranormal Romance Guild. If you like things that go bump in the night you should check out these authors. A few are traditionally published but most are Indie and very good writers. Their website is www.priacon.com Go check them out.
There are also a few articles out there that are work reading about writing and being proud of who you are and what you do. I agree with Ed in an earlier post - Wear Your Crown proudly and write for your readers. Love your readers and they will love you back.


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## ReeseReed (Dec 5, 2009)

Speaking about reader's comments...those have been the single most helpful thing to me with my writing.  After reading my two and three star reviews and seeing what they had to say about my character development, I've put my second work back on the revision shelf over here.  Without those comments, I might have thought it was ready, when in fact, I see now just how much more work it needs before release.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

ReeseReed:

Like ourselves, our art is always a work in progress. We make choices and not in a vacuum, so your readers are the best guide. Note I say "your" readers. Each one of us have our own readers (we share, true), but when the chemistry between the author's mind and the reader's imagination spark, there is true wizardry - and it takes two to make it happen. Glad to have rid myself of the other dozen that try to mess with it and the parasites who make hay from this great love affair. One can meddle with the marketplace and the arena of ideas, but woe to those who meddle with the magic.

Edward C. Patterson


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> When I was first published back in the Stone Age, people said, "Oh, a romance? That's nice. When are you going to write a REAL book?" When I started writing for a small e-publisher, people said, "An ebook? You mean it's just on the computer? Okay, but when will it be released as a REAL book?"


Amen, sister! I know exactly what you mean, and it reminds of the Seinfeld episode where George gets all proud of himself for being a "writer" and tries to use it as a pickup line at a bar. Then when he tells the girl he's writing a sitcom, she laughs at him. That's exactly how I feel sometimes. It's kind of like, "Oh, you write _chick lit_." Yeah, that's right. I write that popular commercial fun stuff that lots of women like to read. What's the problem with that? For some people, it's not REAL writing unless the sentences are paragraph sized with words that require you to keep clicking the thesaurus and reread several times before you "get it." Not that there's anything wrong with that.  But equally, there's nothing wrong with writing romance or chick lit or humor or whatever as long as you do it well. Or so says me. I received a really nice compliment from another author on Authonomy to this end. I think it will ring true for you at least, Ellen:

"Okay, you've got it. You've got the style and the talent to make it. I looked at both of your novels and they are everything that appeals to popular culture. And you know what? I'm tired of all this crap that says popular fiction or popular music is less inspired or less artistically sound. It's popular because it's accessible to a wide population. And that's wonderful. For the love of the good Christ - why are we supposed to feign that we don't want popularity and mass praise? Well I do. lol I'm pretty much desiring the whole fame/riches thing. And I don't believe anyone who says they aren't unless they know in their hearts they haven't a squatted chance to attain it. You don't have to find a niche. So hang tight because your time is coming."

-Jenn


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## karinlib (Jan 1, 2010)

I had never read an Indie before buying a Kindle, and now that's almost all I buy (after getting all the collections).  I love finding a new author.

Here are some of my favorites:

Robin Sloan
Brendan Carroll (I liked Tempo Rubato as well)
Susanne O'Leary
Sierra Rose
Jan Curran
Lee Goldberg 
Carolyn Kephart


I loved "Virtual Imaginings" because it introduced me to some great writers.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I can sympathize with the "I write chick lit" type feel. When someone asks me what I write, say a neighbor or a friend of my parents, I kind of grimace a little and say "It's like Lord of the Rings." The reaction is 90% the same thing.

"Oh" or "Uh-huh."

Sometimes I so desperately wish I could say "It's a technothriller" or "It's about a mass murderer hiding in New England" or "It's akin to DaVinci Code" just so I don't have to endure that strange look. It is almost like I'm still doing something I should have grown out of in high school. Ten billion people write books akin to LotR. Trying to stand out is pretty darn rough.

I made the jump into the Kindle because I felt I had a fantastic story that I wanted people to read. That wasn't going to happen staying on my hard drive. Between Smashwords and Amazon, I've had almost 800 readers. That's 800 more than I had three months ago, and that number is only going to go up. I want more and more sales not for the money, but for the increase in readers. I always get a huge smile when I check Amazon's DTP (far more than is healthy) and see a sale of my second book not tied to the first. Someone, somewhere, liked my first book enough to seek out and buy the second. It just doesn't get better than that.

Classify me as an indie-hack, failed writer, vanity publisher, whatever. People are reading and enjoying my work, and I couldn't care less how.

David Dalglish


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm thinking of starting a new thread: Good Indie Books.   I don't think this stigma discussion is the best place to draw in readers.  And I'd like it to be very reader-friendly.  No self-promotions. No thank yous and you're welcome.  Just brief, honest recommendations, all in the same basic format.  I'm not talking reviews.  Just enough info to let readers know about good books they might like to try. Only one book per post. It would be a place to spread the word about all the talented indie authors we've discovered, and to underscore the fact that we-- proud, professional and serious self-publishers-- are in very good company.

I'd also like to a have a Thank You/Your'e Welcome thread indies could use to thank posters on the Good Indie Books thread.  We could also use it to thank whoever else needs thanking.  It would keep the Good Indie Books thread clean and uncluttered.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Donna--that would be FABULOUS to have a thread with the *books*.  But don't limit it to one book per post.  I'd love to port my list over there of books I've already read.  I'm sure some people will want to talk more about certain ones in their description, but I think it's nice to also just allow people to say "I read and liked these."

Great idea for a thread.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Maria,
I think it's important to make it as reader-friendly as possible.  I really don't want it to be lists.  I think it should be just one book at a time and include: 
Title and author
Link (this is important)
Genre
Premise (no more than a sentence)
Why it's Good (no more than a sentence)

When I see lists here, without any links, it doesn't do me much good. I have a lousy memory. But this way, people could click on the link and download a sample (or buy the book) right away.  If we each did one post to start, it would get the thread going.  Readers could post too.  It would help solve the problem of how to find good indie authors.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I'd be willing to start the list if you don't get around to it, Donna. I'd suggest, however, you name it "Enjoyable Indie Books" instead of "Good". Good implies some sort of judgment being made about the book, and doesn't emphasize the fact that these books posted should be ones the poster has already read. Enjoyable says it all: I read it, I enjoyed it, I think others will, too.

David


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

MariaESchneider said:


> Donna--that would be FABULOUS to have a thread with the *books*. But don't limit it to one book per post. I'd love to port my list over there of books I've already read. I'm sure some people will want to talk more about certain ones in their description, but I think it's nice to also just allow people to say "I read and liked these."
> 
> Great idea for a thread.


I would say that that thread belongs out side of the Book Bazaar, in the Book Corner and must be started by an non-author. Otherwise it will soon become the dreaded vetting forum and the mods will most likely need some valium.

Betsy, Ann, what's your take on it?

Edward C. Patterson


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

I think there are too many book promotions already.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

One added stigma that I thought I would have is the gay-themed-thingy. However, as it turns out, if I believe feedback from readers, most of my readers are not gay. I feel downright ambassadorial. But all kidding aside, a reader is a reader, and I have had readers tell me that they loved The Jade Owl series and they normally do not read fantasy. The secret of overcoming any stigma of a genre nature is either to ignore it (best thing, that), or ignore genre (except when marketing, but be careful with that). I'm "cross-over." You must become your own category. You will find my characters are developed with the same care in a book about the AIDS crisis as they are in a book about politics in 12th Century China. Elements of all genres enter where appropriate. I often think of Stephen King's Tolkien inspiration, The Dark Tower series and admire his ability to ignore the genre, even when, in Book 4, Wizard and Glass, we're thrust into a full blown Romance. 

Sometimes we create the stigma. Sometimes we ignore it. We must, however, be vigilant not to fan the flames so high that we roast ourselves in the stew of our own paranoia.

Edward C. Patterson


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Ed,
I think it should be indie recommendations by other indie authors.  We have the biggest stake, in my opinion.  It's up to us to get the word out that many books by self-published authors are just as enjoyable as books by traditionally published authors. I don't think any indie would recommend a book that he or she really thinks is crap just to be nice.  But a friend would, or a relative.  And then the whole thing would lose its credibility.  I'd like this thread to be very specific and credible.  It's not that we're doing any vetting.  If you like a book, put it on there.  If you don't, don't.  As long as you're an indie, you can post. What's wrong with that?


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

WARNING! ARCHER IS UNDER INFLUENCE OF PAIN MEDS!

--There have been several attempts to form 'indie guilds' that I'm aware of. Haven't heard much since. Seems rather an odd concept to me. I'm not much of a 'joiner'--I dislike the behavior of people in groups. Thanks...I'll be 'indie' for 'independent'. 

--Sure, there's a stigma. So what? Most of the people who buy Elfhunter don't know or care that it's been sub-pubbed. They see the cover, they read the back, they riffle-and-stop or download the sample, and then they buy it or they don't--just like any other book. The quality sells itself. Aside from a wider distribution with tradpubs, there are few advantages over going indie (unless you care about being invited to join the '(Fill-in-the-Blank) Society'. (Uh, oh!  There's that 'people in groups' thing again!)

I don't have any rejections because I haven't sought acceptance from anyone except myself and my readership. I'm good with that. Not to say I mightn't try the tradpub route in the future, as I am curious now and I have already accomplished my original goals. (I KNOW I can put out a good product.) If I 'fail', there's always my comfy 'quality indie' niche, which is open to anyone. That's the beauty of it. 

Incidentally, I spend more time in refining my work than in creating it. I have sought assistance from innumerable proofreaders and a pro editor. My back-cover copy (which used to be...ummm...lame?) has been completely re-done by professional book marketers. I'm trying to give my books as many advantages as I am able--to put it on 'equal footing' with the trads. 

Some who have the talent are not willing or able to refine their work to the point of acceptability for publication. Those folks should seek the help of those who can. We have got to improve our work overall. Poor quality is our biggest stumbling-block.

Every error-riddled, poorly engineered, poorly conceived story reinforces the stigma. Every wonderful book helps dispel it. It's a battle in which all are welcome, but sometimes a part of me wishes otherwise...then I slap myself and soldier on. After all...true snobbery is easily reinforced, but is never really overcome by anything other than time and attrition.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

David,
I'd be glad to start the thread. But first I think we ought to get things worked out a bit here.  I'd like as many of us to be on board with the idea as possible.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

donna callea said:


> Ed,
> I think it should be indie recommendations by other indie authors. We have the biggest stake, in my opinion. It's up to us to get the word out that many books by self-published authors are just as enjoyable as books by traditionally published authors. I don't think any indie would recommend a book that he or she really thinks is crap just to be nice. But a friend would, or a relative. And then the whole thing would lose its credibility. I'd like this thread to be very specific and credible. It's not that we're doing any vetting. If you like a book, put it on there. If you don't, don't. As long as you're an indie, you can post. What's wrong with that?


It's a free exchange. What will be done, will be done. However, IMHO, it is born out of desparation, and is not what readers come to Kindleboard to enjoy. I just think we lose credibility with the readers when we devise our own incremental way to promote our books. But who knows, you might be right. Perhaps they are all just waiting for such a thread to make up their minds. But don't mind me. I'm just an old Jaded Queen who's been doing this for 50 years and has a higher respect for my readers.

Ed Patterson


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

BTW, Ricky et al:

There is an established Independent Authors Guild - IAG - online and thriving, which I encourage all to join. There is also Publetariat, another such guild at www.publetariat.com and there are many niche guilds (I belong to Gay & Lesbian Writers and Reader Group). 

Ed Patterson

PS: April is the time for discussion, Exactly one year ago, the raging discussion on Kindleboards was whether authors would be permitted to promote their books here at all. The results - The Book Bazaar (I believe almost to the date, today).

Thank you Harvey, Ann, Betsy and the readers of Kindleboards for permitting authors to promote in this one-year old Bazaar. 

Ed Patterson


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

I think the task is already being accomplished with 'books recommended by members' in the Book Corner. If you want to call attention to an indie book that you believe is especially worthy, that's a good place to do it. Also, every curious kindler who comes upon a recommendation or intriguing post can click on a link and read reviews, etc, of indie books. 

I know the idea is well-intentioned, but I believe it's unnecessary. We recommend one another's books all the time, whether solicited or otherwise.


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## donna callea (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh, Ed,
Don't take offense.  You're in a class by yourself.  No one markets better than you, in my opinion. You've been in this business for 50 years.  We all respect you.  We really do.  And my next purchase is going to be THE JADE OWL.  But I need help.  And I think many of the rest of us do, too.  What's wrong with getting the word out about all the enjoyable (David's word) indie authors out there?  Until I bought my kindle and became a self-published author myself, I never would have considered buying a book by one.  Call me a snob.  But that's what I was.  I've looked at readers' posts in the  Book Corner, and many of them feel the same way I did.  They just want to read good books, and figure self-published ones don't fit that criteria.  Or they don't know where to find them.  My husband, a big mystery fan, said he'd buy indie books if people he trusted recommended them. Otherwise, he's not going out of his way.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

archer said:


> I think the task is already being accomplished with 'books recommended by members' in the Book Corner. If you want to call attention to an indie book that you believe is especially worthy, that's a good place to do it. Also, every curious kindler who comes upon a recommendation or intriguing post can click on a link and read reviews, etc, of indie books.
> 
> I know the idea is well-intentioned, but I believe it's unnecessary. We recommend one another's books all the time, whether solicited or otherwise.


I think I agree with Archer and Jeff here. After giving it some thought, there's plenty of places for recs and lots of promotion going on.

Maria


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I haven't gone through all of the posts, but I am indie, I'm proud of it, and I may stay that way.... unless a publisher offers me five figures. Then I may not be able to turn that down.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

What a cool thread! And thanks so much for the mentions made of my book! I truly appreciate it.

Regarding guilds...that's a tricky subject. I do think that it's a good idea for indie authors to stick together. I'm a member of Backword Books, a group of indies who have banded together. (Official 'about us' page.) It's helped in a lot of ways, specifically because we each have different and complimentary skills that are helpful for marketing. It helps, too, since all of our novels are either in-between genres or just general 'literary fiction.' I'd be curious to see how a similar organization would work for genre writers.

Regarding the stigma...meh. It doesn't bother me. I'm far too busy with writing, marketing, improving my craft, learning about formatting and design, and SO much more, to have time to worry about any stigma.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

John Fitch V said:


> I haven't gone through all of the posts, but I am indie, I'm proud of it, and I may stay that way.... unless a publisher offers me five figures. Then I may not be able to turn that down.


Having gone through all the posts, I thank those who've mentioned me. 

Gratefully,

CK


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## backpackersguidebook.com (Apr 12, 2010)

archer said:


> Incidentally, I spend more time in refining my work than in creating it. I have sought assistance from innumerable proofreaders and a pro editor. My back-cover copy (which used to be...ummm...lame?) has been completely re-done by professional book marketers. I'm trying to give my books as many advantages as I am able--to put it on 'equal footing' with the trads.
> 
> Some who have the talent are not willing or able to refine their work to the point of acceptability for publication. Those folks should seek the help of those who can. We have got to improve our work overall. Poor quality is our biggest stumbling-block.
> 
> Every error-riddled, poorly engineered, poorly conceived story reinforces the stigma. Every wonderful book helps dispel it. It's a battle in which all are welcome, but sometimes a part of me wishes otherwise...then I slap myself and soldier on. After all...true snobbery is easily reinforced, but is never really overcome by anything other than time and attrition.


Perfect stated, Archer.

On that basis alone, I'm already more interested in downloading Elfhunter without knowing about it yet!


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

archer said:


> Incidentally, I spend more time in refining my work than in creating it.


I spend TEN TIMES more hours revising than I do writing.

I spent two years just outlining my fantasy novel Firefly Island







, thinking about the characters and how they'll interact, planning the world, planning the story. I'd carry around a big pile of paper, which was my outline. I'd always be tinkering around with it, making notes with a pen, writing quick scenes and tossing them out, letting the story form in my head. I was sixteen or seventeen years old when I had the idea for Firefly Island, and it wouldn't leave me. It took years before I was even ready to WRITE the book. It was a strange time. I was living in Israel then. A war was going on, but no matter what happened, I'd always carry around that big pile of paper, making notes, thinking about the story. Once I found myself in an army tent, a helmet on my head, in the middle of the desert (don't ask!). I was looking outside, watching smoke rise from burning tires in the sand. I wrote in my notebook, "Black smoke billowed skyward like devils unfurling from slumber." That sentence found its way into Chapter Nine of Firefly Island. I was eighteen.

I was nineteen years old before I was even ready to start writing. By then my outline was fifty pages long, and had gone through countless changes. It was 1999. The story had evolved so much, so many ideas I scribbled out, tossed away, started over. But it was a strange time. I was moving from place to place, literally and figuratively. Life was still shifting, unsettled. You have to wait until you're ready. For me, I was ready in the winter of 1999, two or three years after starting to outline. I spent a few months writing the first draft. I wrote it in a garden overlooking a forest. It was 2000, and I was twenty, when the first draft was done.

All this had been the easy part.

It took a couple years to revise and polish the novel. I sent it through my writers' workshop twenty times. Yes, twenty. I must have read the book thirty times myself, at least, tinkering, polishing, sending it to new readers, thinking about the story, rewriting, adding, subtracting. If I spent one hour writing a page, I spent ten hours, twenty hours, revising it. It was 2007 before the novel hit the printers and was released in hardcover. It had changed so many times before then.

You can do this forever, of course. If I read the novel today, I'll find things to tweak. But at some point you do have to let it go, realize it's done, that you must move on to the next project. It's like a baby you raise; sooner or later it grows up and doesn't need you any more. It leaves home and finds its own life.

Writing is harder than most people think... but it's worth it. I wouldn't have given up the experience for anything. And I'm now going through the same process... with another novel. And I love it.


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## jesscscott (Aug 5, 2009)

It's a bit like racial (and any other type of) discrimination. Personally, I look at what's inside/the content, rather than the label/packaging/what's on the outside.

I believe the world is a reflection of ourselves. Labels are what we each make out of it. I ignore naysayers, negative people, and those who pass judgment too early. I perceive the stigma to not exist


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## Rye (Nov 18, 2008)

Is there a stigma? Yes. Do I care about it? Not too much. One of the great things about Kindle is the ability to sample. You can try anything by anyone with no financial commitment. If you like it, you can buy it....if you don't like the storyline, bad editing, etc etc. than you've lost nothing except the time to read it and move on to the next author. I've heard from a lot of people who like my work...I've also heard from a few who did not.  I'm not really sure a panel of judges would work either....I have respect for all fellow authors who are trying to get their work out there. Some are better than others...but it's all about your readers. If you listen to what they tell you then you'll know if you're doing it right or not.


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## kellyabell (Sep 4, 2009)

Half-Orc said:


> I made the jump into the Kindle because I felt I had a fantastic story that I wanted people to read. That wasn't going to happen staying on my hard drive. Between Smashwords and Amazon, I've had almost 800 readers. That's 800 more than I had three months ago, and that number is only going to go up. I want more and more sales not for the money, but for the increase in readers. I always get a huge smile when I check Amazon's DTP (far more than is healthy) and see a sale of my second book not tied to the first. Someone, somewhere, liked my first book enough to seek out and buy the second. It just doesn't get better than that.
> 
> Classify me as an indie-hack, failed writer, vanity publisher, whatever. People are reading and enjoying my work, and I couldn't care less how.
> 
> David Dalglish


Good For YOU DAVID! What you just said is the entire reason why I write. My son asked me the other day "why do you write Mom?" and I told him because I love to make people happy. I had a neighbor bring her entire family over to my house just to buy a couple of books and take a few pictures and it was the most heady experience. One of them said she woke up at 1:00 in the morning and couldn't sleep so she picked up my book and started reading. She shaid she couldn't put it down! She didnt go back to sleep that night! What a compliment!!! That's why I do it and I think you should be damn proud of your 800 reaaers and carry your head high whereever you go. Times are changing and I think that as long as you feel good about what you are doing and you are having fun then the rest will come. Write on Indies Write on!
Kelly Abell


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Classify me as an indie-hack, failed writer, vanity publisher, whatever. People are reading and enjoying my work, and I couldn't care less how.


I remember how a few years ago, to be self-published was considered almost shameful, the mark of an amateur, a career killer. Even a year ago, I think this was still true. If you self-published it's because no publishers wanted your book. But these days, many authors are making the CHOICE to go indie with their ebooks. They choose to go indie because of the control -- over your cover art, over the price, over how you promote the book. Indies can now sell their ebook for $5 and collect a third of that; a traditional publisher would sell the ebook for $10 or more and collect most of the profits.

David, you found 800 readers for your ebooks; that's fantastic. And it's growing. With a traditional publisher, you might not have done any better.

The future is ebooks. What can traditional publishers really do for you now, that you can't do for yourself? You can hire your own editors and copyeditors. You can hire artists for your cover. You can promote the book yourself (even the largest publishers won't promote your book for you, not unless you're famous). So why NOT go indie? Why NOT sell the books at the price YOU want, and YOU collect the profits?

Traditional publishers vs. self/vanity publishing used to be about REACH. With a traditional publisher, you could reach the bookshops (even this wasn't always true, since bookshops are so picky about who they stock). The thought was, if you self-publish, only your friends and family will ever read about the book or have access to buy it. This was the main issue, in my opinion... but is it still relevant in the age of Kindle?

Firefly Island







was originally published in hardcover by a small imprint of a big publisher. They printed 700 copies; all sold through. Now Firefly Island







is an ebook, and I'm having more fun with it than ever. The best part is, perhaps, that your ebook stays "in print" forever. With a traditional paper publisher, very few titles stay in print for more than a year or so; your book is always on borrowed time.

For my next book, I plan to go with a new indie publisher (Moonclipse) and focus mainly on ebooks, with only a small print component.

2010 is a GREAT time for indie authors; we have the ADVANTAGE here. And 2011 will be even better.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

DArenson said:


> The future is ebooks. What can traditional publishers really do for you now, that you can't do for yourself? You can hire your own editors and copyeditors. You can hire artists for your cover. You can promote the book yourself (even the largest publishers won't promote your book for you, not unless you're famous). So why NOT go indie? Why NOT sell the books at the price YOU want, and YOU collect the profits?
> 
> Traditional publishers vs. self/vanity publishing used to be about REACH. With a traditional publisher, you could reach the bookshops (even this wasn't always true, since bookshops are so picky about who they stock). The thought was, if you self-publish, only your friends and family will ever read about the book or have access to buy it. This was the main issue, in my opinion... but is it still relevant in the age of Kindle?


I love my print books, and I expend effort each day in their behalf. I've sold an impressive number of them (for an indie).
BUT...
...E-books level the playing field. There are two characteristics of a kindle book that favor us: the wondrous ability to sample before purchase, and the ability to set our own prices. We can dispel the fear of ineptitude and make our product easy to buy. Add in a few effective marketing opportunities such as kindleboards, a good blog, etc., and you truly have world-wide access to your readership. E-readers shop online. Not so with a hefty percentage of DTB buyers. Nothing gets rid of a stigma like Word-of-mouth. Nothing.
There is no cost of production. There needn't be a middleman(men). The profit margin can't be beat!

I love my kindle, but I love other people's kindles even more!


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Ed_ODell said:


> With that, here are 3 of the 5...just kidding! These are 3 of the 11 I've read thus far that I'd strongly recommend to anyone in search of a great read:
> 
> Reunion
> The Red Church
> The Weight of Blood


Just caught this ... Was this my Reunion or another? Just wondering, as I don't *typically* get male readers. If it is, then WOW, THANK YOU!

-Jenn


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## Candee15 (Jan 31, 2010)

The irony here is when I self-published my romance novel on Amazon, I was the one with the stigma in MY head.  It's soooooo weird.  My husband and son were flipping out excited, so I decided to tell a few attorneys I work with (I'm a court reporter by day).  I expected to get a negative feeling emanating from them.  On the contrary, they were VERY excited.  I said something to the effect of "I SELF-published."  The response was ALWAYS extremely positive ... from great, I can't wait to buy your book, to that is soooo smart, to that's the way of the future."  I have been embraced by everyone I've told.  Granted, I only published two weeks ago, so I'm a real newbie in the publishing field ... but I'm sooooooo happy. 

Now I have to learn about marketing!


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I'd love to have David's 800 readers!


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

John Fitch V said:


> I'd love to have David's 800 readers!


No! No! They are precious to me...my precious...you can't steal my precious!

David Dalglish


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

J.L. Penn said:


> Just caught this ... Was this my Reunion or another? Just wondering, as I don't *typically* get male readers. If it is, then WOW, THANK YOU!
> 
> -Jenn


Jenn,

Thanks a lot for outing me here on the Kindle boards! 

That was your "Reunion." My wife reads a lot of chick-lit...I mean A LOT of CHICK-LIT!!!! After reading some of your posts, I asked her to give your work a shot and let me know what she thought of your writing. Her words: "smart, very smart, writing. She knows what women want and delivers it very well."

I then read it. I have now read two of the genre cover to cover: your "Reunion" and Gail Parent's "Sheila Levine is Dead and Living in New York." I'm a man -- and not a sensitive man -- so I mostly don't "get it" when it comes to what makes a good chick-lit book. Therefore, I can't critique content, but I do know what good writing reads like, and the quality of yours compares favorably.

Hey...don't judge me because I've read two books of the genre... in my defense, I couldn't get through a page or two of more than 300 others that my wife has read over the years! 

Now, off to read something in the ninja-assasin-fistighting-grizzly-bears-hunting-down-crazed-psycho-killers-sawing-off-leg-and-eating-nails-to-survive genre...

Regards,

Ed


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Hey, Ed

I've been outed by the best.  

Ed P


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## jonconnington (Mar 20, 2010)

It really comes down to the perception of the reading public. Writers using the old vanity presses were viewed as inferior because they were seen as not being good enough to pass muster with a regular publisher...which, sad to say, was true for a lot of 'em. That stigma has passed onto indie writers like us...and while it's unfair, in some cases it's deserved. There a lot of really good indie writers out there putting out innovative work, the sort regular publishers no longer seem able to get. But there are also indie writers putting stuff that is really substandard, to the point of ignoring basic rules of grammar and editing (a lesson I had to learn the hard way.) It's that old principle at world - a good reputation takes years to build and moments to destroy.

The only thing that will fix this is time and quality. As time goes by, the reading public will come to accept indie writers as legitimate, but only if the number of good books being put out is greater than the number of bad ones.

Just a humble opinion on the matter.


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Ed_ODell said:


> Thanks a lot for outing me here on the Kindle boards!


Ed - Oops, sorry 'bout that.  Your endorsement, and your wife's, means a lot to me. Thank you so much. And don't worry ... it's kind of like real men wear pink. Real men can admit to enjoying a good chick flick or chick lit novel. My husband secretly loves a couple romantic comedies himself, although he'd likely not mention them in public.  You silly men.  

-Jenn


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Hey, Ed
> 
> I've been outed by the best.
> 
> Ed P


    (Thanks for the smile, Ed.)


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Hey, Ed
> 
> I've been outed by the best.
> 
> Ed P


Ed,

Based on your posts, I'm quite certain you handled it appropriately. 

I, however, am not strong enough to face the truth. I'm not ready to look my children in the eyes and proudly proclaim that I like "When Harry Met Sally."

How have we managed to go so far off topic so quickly? Did somebody forget to take my Ritalin?

Ed O


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll admit it: I cried when I watched The Notebook. Like a baby. 

I will now go bathe in battery acid.


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

John Fitch V said:


> I'll admit it: I cried when I watched The Notebook. Like a baby.
> 
> I will now go bathe in battery acid.


So did my OH. Don't feel bad, he's very manly when he's not watching the Notebook


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I need to read it. It's on the top of my bookshelf, next to my Dune collection. One of these days...


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Not off topic at all. This is a therapy lounge and I thought a little humor would help us not take ourselves so seriously.   

Ed Patterson


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## Candee15 (Jan 31, 2010)

Ed_ODell said:


> Ed,
> 
> Based on your posts, I'm quite certain you handled it appropriately.
> 
> ...


Not even the deli scene? <lol>

When Harry Met Sally happens to be one of my all-time favorite movies ... Then again, I'm a woman <g>. I'll have to ask my husband and see if he gives me an honest answer.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I'll have what she's having.

Ed Patterson


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

Candee15 said:


> Not even the deli scene? <lol>
> 
> When Harry Met Sally happens to be one of my all-time favorite movies ... Then again, I'm a woman <g>. I'll have to ask my husband and see if he gives me an honest answer.


Candee15,

I have recently been "outed" as an occasional reader of chick-lit.

Now I'm struggling to face the truth. I'm not ready to tell my kids that I liked the movie. 

In all seriousness, I thought it was a very good movie. Both characters played their parts well. Dialogue was crisp and smart. And you're right -- the deli scene -- classic!

Ed


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Okay, now I'm feeling like a chick lit fraud. I adore romantic comedies (practically all I watch), but I have to confess ... dare I say it? ... I'm not a big fan of _When Harry Met Sally_. What is wrong with me? Is there a support group for people like me? 

-Jenn


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## Ed_ODell (Mar 27, 2010)

J.L. Penn said:


> Okay, now I'm feeling like a chick lit fraud. I adore romantic comedies (practically all I watch), but I have to confess ... dare I say it? ... I'm not a big fan of _When Harry Met Sally_. What is wrong with me? Is there a support group for people like me?
> 
> -Jenn


GASP!

My entire belief system shattered in one post!


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## ReeseReed (Dec 5, 2009)

J.L. Penn said:


> Okay, now I'm feeling like a chick lit fraud. I adore romantic comedies (practically all I watch), but I have to confess ... dare I say it? ... I'm not a big fan of _When Harry Met Sally_. What is wrong with me? Is there a support group for people like me?
> 
> -Jenn


Fellow chick-litter here and I will also admit that I did not particularly enjoy the movie. Then again, I rarely enjoy movies that aren't animated...one reason why it's great to have kids...an easy out for watching the movies I really want to!


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Ed_ODell said:


> GASP!
> 
> My entire belief system shattered in one post!


Wait, wait, I can redeem myself! Some of my favorite movies are _Notting Hill_, _You've Got Mail_, _French Kiss_ (an under-watched, under-appreciate Meg Ryan/Kevin Kline gem), _Someone Like You_, and _Father of the Bride_. And _Christmas Vacation_ and _This Is Spinal Tap_ ... but that's another story. 

-Jenn


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

J.L. Penn said:


> Wait, wait, I can redeem myself! Some of my favorite movies are _Notting Hill_, _You've Got Mail_, _French Kiss_ (an under-watched, under-appreciate Meg Ryan/Kevin Kline gem), _Someone Like You_, and _Father of the Bride_. And _Christmas Vacation_ and _This Is Spinal Tap_ ... but that's another story.
> 
> -Jenn


Love _French Kiss_. I watch it whenever it's on.

Which _Father of the Bride_? Spencer Tracy or Steve Martin?


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

Ugh... you people and your romance films.

My idea of a Romance film is ALIENS.


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## J.L. Penn (Mar 17, 2010)

Gertie - Definitely Steve Martin.  I love Steve Martin ... well, most of his films.

J Dean - Just to clarify ... romantic COMEDY!    I'm not a fan of plain romance.  I don't do sappy.  Lifetime channel - not for this chick, generally speaking.  No Nicholas Sparks on my shelf.  I'm not really a girly girl.  I like sports, video games, cars (love the show Top Gear from the UK), I'm not a crier, I don't watch Oprah ... but I do love my romantic comedies! 

-Jenn


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

J Dean said:


> Ugh... you people and your romance films.
> 
> My idea of a Romance film is ALIENS.


I'd have to agree with you there. ALIENS has an incredible amount of heart, seriously. Don't even get me started about the part where Hicks shows Ripley how to use a gun. Yow! 

Same goes for TERMINATOR...the love story's the core of it. Forget the sequels.

Edited so as not to be impertinent to the thread: when I've told people that I've got books out, no one has ever asked about my publisher. They just want to know where they can buy me.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Carolyn Kephart said:


> Same goes for TERMINATOR...the love story's the core of it. Forget the sequels.


Kyle Reese...swoon!!


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## mamiller (Apr 28, 2009)

Kyle Reese.  Hicks.  Same actor.  I had such a crush!!!!!!!!  Just watched Aliens again last week for the umpteenth time.


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## farrellclaire (Mar 5, 2010)

I loved the film French Kiss - and You've Got Mail but I also like Top Gear, who doesn't?  It's a healthy balance.


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## Candee15 (Jan 31, 2010)

J.L. Penn said:


> Gertie - Definitely Steve Martin. I love Steve Martin ... well, most of his films.
> 
> J Dean - Just to clarify ... romantic COMEDY!  I'm not a fan of plain romance. I don't do sappy. Lifetime channel - not for this chick, generally speaking. No Nicholas Sparks on my shelf. I'm not really a girly girl. I like sports, video games, cars (love the show Top Gear from the UK), I'm not a crier, I don't watch Oprah ... but I do love my romantic comedies!
> 
> -Jenn


Me, too, Jenn! I can watch romantic comedies over and over and still laugh and still enjoy them. That is the only genre I feel that way about.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

So, is somebody who enjoys whimsical stories about cats a 'Kitty-Litter'?


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm a Star Wars nerd, a Lord of the Rings nerd.... can practically quote those verbatim... Spaceballs... The American President... Rocky Horror... M*A*S*H the movie.... Harry Potter, of course... Johnny Dangerously... I'd have to go over to my DVD pile, but that would be overkill.


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## Candee15 (Jan 31, 2010)

J Dean said:


> Ugh... you people and your romance films.
> 
> My idea of a Romance film is ALIENS.


I guess it was my husband's, too. That's the movie he took me to see for our first movie date <g>.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Any one of Elijah Wood's 40 films.

Ed Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Indie Stigma = Likes Romance Films

O.K.

Got it.

Thanks.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, we've gone off-topic. It happens sometimes. And I only joined in for the sake of joining in.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, I guess that's about it for the stigma for this year. Once per annum is about right.  

Ed Patterson


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