# a bad experience with HeavyCat / Palace in the Sky (updated)



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I am posting this with the moderator's permission, and with extreme reluctance.

One of the things people always say about my fairy tales is that they need illustrations - and I agree. I posted something about that here last September, and was approached by HeavyCat / Palace in the Sky to do illustrations for Dragons and Dreams. we negotiated on price, and agreed to a set amount per spot illustration. I paid the requested $135 down payment via paypal.

and heard nothing. I went to PayPal while I was still within their timelimit for getting refunds. After a rather acrimonious exchange, I was reassured that they'd get right to my art.

after a few months I heard from an artist with a couple of rough sketches, and then nothing. Then I heard that that artist had left the company and I'd be reassigned to a different artist.

I kept hearing nothing from them, and kept writing them for a target date, and never getting any replies. Finally, in early January this year, I was told that they were not going to accept my commission. I requested my money back.

It is now January 30, and I've still heard nothing from them about a refund.

I'm going to PayPal again, but I think things have gone on long enough that I doubt I'll be able to get my money back that way.

I have since contracted with two other artists for specific work that I am delighted with - it's just this one organization that I'd like to warn other writers seeking art to avoid. It seems like it was an expensive lesson for me.

ETA: making the thread title more specific


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

In the future, I'd recommend working with an artist who will begin the work on a deposit and will only invoice you for the entire agreed-upon amount once you've approved the final illustrations.  That way if something goes wrong you're not out all the money.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I only paid them half on deposit, which I understand is pretty standard.


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## Cheyanne (Jan 9, 2013)

This might just be a live and learn situation. I lost $300 from a reputable cover artist and only got $150 of it refunded. They promised the rest would come soon, but I've just given up. I do all of my own art from now on. I know illustrations aren't easy to do yourself, so I'd just recommend finding a SUPER reputable artist next time.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks for the warning, and I'm sorry this happened to you.   (If it had happened to me, I'd be super pissed.)  This warning helps any author who requires such services.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm not going to speak on this specific incident, but just in general terms:

Unless I have worked with an artist in the past, I never pay anything up front for commissioned art. Usually, I pay half upon delivery of the preliminary sketches, and the balance upon delivery of the final art. In addition, my contract include penalties for late delivery. Because I have deadlines, and delays cost me money. I also, however, include bonuses for early delivery (usually a commission on sales for the first six months after release). 

The biggest thing that causes problems for BOTH artists and authors is being TOO flexible with deadlines. I learned a long time ago the more flexible I was with an artist insofar as excepting their excuses for missed deadlines, the more absurd the excuses would get and the longer it would take.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I just want to add, as someone who does commissions, that I agree with the advice given as far as protecting one's self, but if an artist takes money to deliver a product and does not deliver, it is in no way the contractor's fault--it's the artist's failure. And the advice on how to protect one's self should not be taken that way. But they are good suggestions for people going forward. And, of course, there are also people who contract for art and then try to weasel out of paying. I encourage contracts spelling out each side's responsibilities and rights.

Sorry you had this experience, Becca. Just as we encourage people to post their good experiences with service providers, there is nothing wrong with posting one's own bad experiences, after trying to work things out with the individual directly and failing. (We do ask that postings be people's own experiences.) This is good information for our members, and a good discussion.

Betsy


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I just want to add, as someone who does commissions, that I agree with the advice given as far as protecting one's self, but if an artist takes money to deliver a product and does not deliver, it is in no way the contractor's fault--it's the artist's failure. And the advice on how to protect one's self should not be taken that way.


Oh, for sure. It's definitely the fault of the artist when they fail to come through.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Sorry to hear that Becca.    *hugsgsgs*
I bet all the worrying has used a lot of spoons for you these past weeks, that is not cool.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I have to say that I'm currently working with two artists, Tanya Gleadall and Annette (Midnight Whimsy), and couldn't be more pleased with them. They keep me up to date with what's going on, whether there will be delays, and have been wonderful to work with when I ask for yet one more drawing than originally spec'ed (for more money, of course). I'll be very excited to get the full set of art from them both, so I can go live with illustrated versions of The Snarls (Tanya) and Heart of Rock (Annette).


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## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

So sorry to hear about this, Becca. Unfortunately I've had a few bad experiences with artists, too. I won't name names (though you had every right to) but in my situation the artist did deliver the ebook cover on time. It was beautiful. No problems at all...Until I saw that they used MY stock images (that I purchased and provided for MY covers) on their new premade book covers on their website.  Even though I loved the final outcome of _my_ covers I can't work with that artist again. To me that was just wrong.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

ElHawk said:


> Oh, for sure. It's definitely the fault of the artist when they fail to come through.




I know you and others weren't implying otherwise!

Betsy


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Definitely not.  It's a crappy situation.


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks for the warning about that specific group of artists.  That is definitely something to make sure other people are aware of happening.


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Sorry to hear this, Becca.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Becca, as they are a company, you might also want to lodge a complaint with the BBB. And tell them you are doing so.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

It's too late for a paypal revision of the fee.  I need to talk to my bank credit card division and see whether there's something I van do through them.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

I'd like to suggest a more specific title to this thread, in order to increase its discoverability when googling them.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2014)

The only time I charge authors up front is if we are beginning a project that exceeds $1,000. For projects that large I ask for half up front, and half on delivery of the final art. For all other projects I ask to be paid when the approved files are delivered. That way the author is paying for the right work, and something they are happy with. 

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear that, Becca.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your experience, Becca.

Yes, you're probably too late now for a "PayPal remedy".

There's nothing at all wrong with people asking for 50% payment up-front as a deposit, and I would do the same. I have to pay in advance for everything I buy online. When paying by PayPal it's important to get it agreed, in writing, that at least _some part of the work which is usable and has value will be provided within the PayPal complaint/challenge timescale_.

I wish you good luck.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm not going to speak on this specific incident, but just in general terms:
> 
> Unless I have worked with an artist in the past, I never pay anything up front for commissioned art. Usually, I pay half upon delivery of the preliminary sketches, and the balance upon delivery of the final art. In addition, my contract include penalties for late delivery. Because I have deadlines, and delays cost me money. I also, however, include bonuses for early delivery (usually a commission on sales for the first six months after release).
> 
> The biggest thing that causes problems for BOTH artists and authors is being TOO flexible with deadlines. I learned a long time ago the more flexible I was with an artist insofar as excepting their excuses for missed deadlines, the more absurd the excuses would get and the longer it would take.


It depends on the artist's reputation. The artist who did the work on my historical novels is pretty well known in the 'military art' world (well earned let me say) so I felt fairly safe giving him a deposit. That didn't keep delivery on his last piece from being late though.

In the future I will take your advice to include a penalty for late delivery.

Becca, sorry to hear about your terrible experience.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Sorry to hear 

That name sounds very familiar ... was it the people with like, fifteen fantasy books that had anime/manga artwork on the cover but the stories were not anime/manga? Lady ... something ...


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> I'd like to suggest a more specific title to this thread, in order to increase its discoverability when googling them.


done.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Half up front and half on completion is pretty standard. I've worked for years in children's animation and video games, and that's usually how I approved contracts. That, or 1/3 on agreement, 1/3 on approval of final drafts, 1/3 on final delivery. However, all that's flexible. You can always dialogue and work out some other agreement. Or not--and then move on to the next person.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Adam Poe said:


> Sorry to hear
> 
> That name sounds very familiar ... was it the people with like, fifteen fantasy books that had anime/manga artwork on the cover but the stories were not anime/manga? Lady ... something ...


Yes, that's them.
http://www.kboards.com/index.php?action=profile;u=35521


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

First of all, I am sincerely sorry for what happened to you. It sucks a tremendous amount that other indies would screw their fellow indies over for what gain...$130 bucks? That's a pitifully low sum to collect when you consider the damage done to one's reputation in the fall out. (And yes, I consider freelancers who work in the industry indies as well, whether they write books not, as the spirit of creation is much the same). 

But, I applaud you for speaking up and naming names. So often we get these posts and they are all whispers and innuendo. It's helpful but not that helpful when we, at the end of the thread, we still don't know who to avoid doing business with. It's a risk to step forward and say "this is what happened and here's who's to blame for it" ... so bravo. 

I could call Paypal directly. I had to do this over the holidays with an eBay order when eBay was inept at handling the issue. I can only say nice things about the way the CS rep handled it and how quickly (literally, within 10 minutes) I was refunded. The fact is, PayPal doesn't want to be in business with scammers either, it doesn't bode well for their company. If you opened a case however long ago, the records still remain and they will take you seriously. 

I wish you all the luck in the world and I'm thrilled you've found someone who can take your vision and actually do the work they promised to do.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm sorry they held up your projects for so long, too. That must be really frustrating.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear that you had to experience that.  That's really unprofessional of him/them.  

I hope that somehow you get your money back - via karma if not PayPal!

Especially bad of them given that they actively pitched for the work.  I remember them asking for a lot of advice on the boards.  Not a great way to repay a member of the community who tried to help them.


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## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

That really stinks, Becca. I'm sorry that happened to you. I had some difficulty with my illustrator, too. But in a different way. So glad you have good illustrators to work with now.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Sorry to hear about this, Becca. It can happen to anybody and definitely was no fault of yours. Paying 50 % up front is fairly standard - artists don't want to get cheated any more than authors do, so the half up front fee helps them protect themselves. That said, an artist once scammed me out of $300. I say scammed but it was really more of a flake out. So you have my sympathies. The internet can be a scary place to do business.


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## DJ Edwardson (Mar 15, 2013)

Sorry to hear that Becca. Thanks for sharing your experiences though. That's a salutary lesson for the rest of us.

Glad you've found some new artists to work with, though.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

now the big question - should I email a link to this discussion to the person who said I'd have my money by the end of the month and then ignored my question of how they were going to pay me? (check? paypal?)


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> It's too late for a paypal revision of the fee. I need to talk to my bank credit card division and see whether there's something I van do through them.


Becca, FWIW, I've run an online company since 1994, and there has been one case where a fraudulent guy has asked (and gotten) his money back through his credit card company months after the fact. Don't pay the statement, just contact your bank when the statement comes in and dispute the charge.

Really, it's so ridiculously easy that I don't understand that there is not a lot more fraud with this system.

(As aside, this is the story: I used to send paper books through the mail, and I got an unexplained refund from the CC company. When I investigated, they said it was for "books never delivered". OK, that happens, but normally a customer's first point of call would be me. Had he contacted me about non-delivery of two very large and expensive books, total about $350, I would have chased it up and provided a refund or re-sent the books. My experience was that hardly anything even gets completely lost in the mail. It just gets mislaid for a long time, and usually turns up at either end. The dude had the hide to contact me last year and asked me if I remembered him. I remembered very well *evil grin*)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Sorry to hear of your experience Becca. It happens. I'd put the pressure on your CC company.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

_said I'd have my money by the end of the month _

I think you posted this prematurely. Granted, it seems you've been screwed around, but if they have to the end of the month, on my calendar, that's close of business tomorrow. So, it would be more appropriate to post this on Feb 1st.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

[braindead] I thought today was the last day of the month.

I'll post whether or not I've received my money on Feb 1 - which, according to my calendar rather than my internal sense of time (ha!) is in 2 days.

but it's still true that, when I asked what the mechanism for the repayment would be, they never answered me.


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## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

That really sucks Becca  It is so disappointing when small businesses do this, because it can end up reflecting so poorly for the rest of us. Half up front is definitely standard, but you are completely entitled to the refund so I hope it resolves soon for you! I know Annette (MW) will come through for you  She's awesome!


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm sorry for you, Becca, and I'm sorry there's nothing practical I can say or do to help you.


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm very sorry about your bad experience, Becca. I'm so happy to help get your wonderful stories illustrated! Speaking of which, I should get back to work. 

M.W (Annette)

PS - Thanks Scarlett!


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm not going to speak on this specific incident, but just in general terms:
> 
> Unless I have worked with an artist in the past, I never pay anything up front for commissioned art. Usually, I pay half upon delivery of the preliminary sketches, and the balance upon delivery of the final art. In addition, my contract include penalties for late delivery. Because I have deadlines, and delays cost me money. I also, however, include bonuses for early delivery (usually a commission on sales for the first six months after release).
> 
> The biggest thing that causes problems for BOTH artists and authors is being TOO flexible with deadlines. I learned a long time ago the more flexible I was with an artist insofar as excepting their excuses for missed deadlines, the more absurd the excuses would get and the longer it would take.


Man, now two things I agree with Julie about. She was right, a clock IS correct twice per day 

The artist I'm working with at the moment still hasn't invoiced me, though he's showing me a lot of great stuff, so I know that work is progressing. I would have been leery if he'd have asked for anything up front. I suppose it also helps that I chose two books that were still months from being published so we both knew that while the jobs need to be finished and paid, there was x-amount of time to work on things.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Although this is water under the bridge, I'd like to over a strategy I never needed to use, but still had in place.

In a case where I pay up front for a service, I need some tangible evidence that the service is in progress before the refund period is over. No evidence, and I reverse the up front fee for breach of contract. If the artist wants to come back into my good graces and I'm willing to accept the excuses of the breach of contract, I'll negotiate a new contract, with a new up-front fee with the same stipulations. So if the artist tries to screw me out of my money, the up-front fee will return to my account before a new contract is re-negotiated.

However, with my cover artists, the payment was always 'on delivery', so this construction was not necessary.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Looks like she has a track record.

****"This is a negative review for "heavy cat studios" which is an extension of Palace in the Sky Productions LLC.

Around the time of the post (above) they started a kickstarter campaign

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/di...ries/x/2175461

And raised approximately 750 dollars. They are now 6 months past the due-date to deliver - they will not answer emails, they will not respond to clients, and they will not provide anything they committed to. Instead, they took the money and have been building video games.

DO not trust these folks, if you give them money, you will not get what you were promised. See the reviews on their kickstarter pages.

We have to work together to stop groups like this from taking advantage of the community."
*

And then, of course, there's this thread which describes similar behavior:

https://www.fgl.com/view_thread.php?thread_id=41306

She's not hurt or anything, because she's still using twitter.

https://twitter.com/jessieandteko

I bet if I kept digging, I'd find more complaints on her.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> And then, of course, there's this thread which describes similar behavior:
> 
> https://www.fgl.com/view_thread.php?thread_id=41306


That thread is damn scary.

I tweeted to heavycat that this thread should probably be responded to, but I don't have high hopes based on the feedback in the above link.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Looks like she has a track record.
> 
> ****"This is a negative review for "heavy cat studios" which is an extension of Palace in the Sky Productions LLC.
> 
> ...


Can't make the indiegogo link work.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

David Adams said:


> That thread is d*mn scary.
> 
> I tweeted to heavycat that this thread should probably be responded to, but I don't have high hopes based on the feedback in the above link.


It doesn't excuse the lack of professionalism shown to Becca, but if this was a one-time event, you could probably chalk it up to some kind of miscommunication between her and Heavy Cat (W.Scott). Once multiple people are complaining about the same bad behavior, they no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Seems to me Heavy Cat has some explaining to do.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> Can't make the indiegogo link work.


I couldn't get that link to work either. But what's interesting is I already had the link because I was going to hire the same actress Heavy Cat used to promote his gig to do some voice work for me and had bookmarked it last year. Here it is:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dinner-table-epics-fantasy-adventure-graphics-series


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> I couldn't get that link to work either. But what's interesting is I already had the link because I was going to hire the same actress Heavy Cat used to promote his gig to do some voice work for me and had bookmarked it last year. Here it is:
> 
> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dinner-table-epics-fantasy-adventure-graphics-series


Thanks Kevis!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

No problem, Nathalie. 

I've got writing to do, so I'm officially done playing Dick Tracy. But I'm leaving these last two links just in case Becca wants to check them out. But it's not looking good for Heavy Cat.

http://forum.deviantart.com/jobs/offers/1838068/?offset=0#comments

http://www.talkarcades.com/talk-arcades/19943-its-time-you-heard-what-you-dont-want-hear.html


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## heavycat (Feb 14, 2011)

I suppose we don't have much choice about not posting here any more.

With all your kind indulgence, we'll distill this down to the basic facts as I'm sure we all have better things to do than hold a convention around a hundred bucks and change.

The client paid us on October 3rd, 2013. The commission was to illustrate an entire book. A producer was assigned on October 6th.

20 days later, with no warning or prior notice, the client formally demanded a refund, claiming we hadn't promised a delivery date. It was made clear at the time the work was commissioned we don't offer guaranteed delivery dates absent a premium. Work was halted.

It took 15 days to resolve the demand. Work resumed. It was halted again soon thereafter as the client insisted they still wanted a refund so they could hire another artist. We were apparently expected to eat our costs up to that point (producer's fee, sketchwork, artist's fees, the time spent in several rounds of negotiations)

(Note due to the amount in question, we stood to make zero on this project. It was basically a favor. By now we were well in the red)

We canceled the project (at our expense), agreed to a refund in December and planned to deliver it this month. Apparently that wasn't good enough. So now apparently the client feels justified in announcing publicly that we are engaged in unfair business practices.

That will be news to the numerous clients we have who take delivery of top quality work without demanding refunds, repeatedly disrupting our production schedules and telling exaggerated tales on public message boards (where their complaint gets top billing and our response is on page three)

Ultimately these threads are about drama. This entire project was nothing but drama from day one. I think we managed to get a few sketches done in between demands, belligerent e-mails and general complaining. And the ironic thing is I first responded to the client right here on Kboards because they complained they couldn't get their illustrations done. (I'll let that one go)

That's what I get for offering to help. If it makes the client feel any better, we had planned to send the refund today. But I guess we'll have to wait now to see if there are any other demands we have failed to fulfill to their satisfaction first. We certainly want to be sure we address each and every concern.

As for the few other disputes we have encountered over the some six years and sixty projects we've done:

The FGL thread was well responded to on page two. (I'll link it here as that seems to be the thing to do):

https://www.fgl.com/view_thread.php?search=1&offset=25&thread_id=41306 (halfway down the page)

That particular client paid us to do graphics for their driving game, then vanished for seven months, only to re-appear with demands for a full refund on a project we had already done work on (sound familiar?)

The second loudest client in that thread misrepresented themselves, signed a contract they had no legal authority to sign and took delivery of over 60 color designs, only to later claim we hadn't done our job properly.

Every contributor to our canceled Indiegogo campaign was refunded in full. Note those who complained the loudest on our page had nothing to say after they received their refunds. Not a single word. (See above re: drama)

The Talkarcades thread (nearly two years old at this point) was in response to clients who wanted many thousands of dollars worth of work in exchange for practically nothing. The loudest complainer in that thread was refunded in full as well. A month later he was still complaining, posting e-mail exchanges, etc. This was after a full refund. (See abov-- ahh skip it)

We have occasional disagreements with artists about how much they are owed for their work, as every studio does. This is not news. Our core art team has been together for years and years, and the overwhelming majority of them do excellent work project after project.

What this inevitably boils down to is bored people instigating drama for the sake of drama. If there were anything of real consequence at issue here, it would have been handled in an orderly, businesslike manner (something we have attempted to do over the course of some four months now, only to be obstructed every step of the way). Had our work not been interrupted, we would have finished the book illustrations (at a cost of about nine bucks a piece  ) in a matter of a few weeks.

We have no control over clients and their beliefs about what constitutes satisfactory performance. All we can do is our best, and given our track record of delivering over 60 quality books, games and comics, and generating only a handful of complaints (all of which have been repeatedly addressed now) I'd say we're doing fine.

If this client will be so kind as to contact us via e-mail, I'm sure we can arrange an equitable conclusion to our business. At this point, I'm sure everyone will understand if we request a reliable agreement that no further semi-factual stories be posted for the sake of public drama. We all have better things to do with our time.

You all have a nice day.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Becca does not strike me as someone prone to creating drama for drama's sake.  If you 'had planned' to issue a refund today, then I would suggest that it would be politic to issue it.  To do otherwise undermines all the other excuses in your post.  I am sure she will be happy to update the thread when she receives the refund.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

It's a shame this happened. It made me realize how lucky I've been with the cover designer I use. She's talented, cooperative--she's made multiple designs for each cover--and she has never charged me before the work is done.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

heavycat said:


> What this inevitably boils down to is bored people instigating drama for the sake of drama.


Thank you. Your attitude is polite and professional.

~~~~

Thank you again, Becca, for informing us about this company.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

heavycat said:


> It was made clear at the time the work was commissioned we don't offer guaranteed delivery dates absent a premium.


I work in the arts/crafts, and I've never heard of a designer refusing to give a delivery date, or asking a premium for one. You might say something like, _it'll be ready at the latest by the end of July, but it should be ready by the beginning of July, all going well_. You can't just leave it open.

Customers are entitled to know the price, and the date the work will be ready. Those are basics.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2014)

Lexi Revellian said:


> I work in the arts/crafts, and I've never heard of a designer refusing to give a delivery date, or asking a premium for one. You might say something like, _it'll be ready at the latest by the end of July, but it should be ready by the beginning of July, all going well_. You can't just leave it open.
> 
> Customers are entitled to know the price, and the date the work will be ready. Those are basics.


I would never sign a contract with no due date. I can understand charging a premium if the deadline is tight (i.e. I need 20 full color original images in 10 days! How much will it cost me?) But to not give a person a deadline at all?


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

I've had the odd customer who's said, when asked when he needs the commission to be ready, "There's no rush." 

My response is, "Never say that to a craftsman! You'll be lucky to see it in your lifetime. Give me a date."


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

I usually don't get into these discussions, but I have known Becca to be an extremely kind, reasonable person in my time on KB. I have never spoken to her personally, but you get a good idea about the personalities of others when you read their posts. She has always seemed to be an honest person. 

I actually took the time this morning before my writing session to read this entire thread. I also read every post in the threads that were linked here. It seems to me that heavycat writes the same canned response each time he/she receives a complaint. It's never their company's fault. In every case:

- The client was belligerent 
- The client was bored and causing drama
- The sponsors are killing my company
- Everyone wants me to work for free
- We're just trying to keep the lights on; these clients are eating our profits
- The client disappeared for months and then demanded money back

Sorry, but if that's happening so much, you're doing something wrong. If you can't profit on an order, don't take it. Don't provide excuses such as, "We knew we couldn't make money, but we just love what we do so we took the job!" That's no one's fault but your own, heavycat. Profitable companies aren't in the business of taking commissions that put them in the hole.

Also, if you try to publicly rub your clients' faces in the mud each time they have a valid complaint, fewer and fewer people are going to come to you for services. No one wants to take the chance of being burned and then being called names when they complain about it. In every job I have ever held, the customer is treated as though they are right (within reason) when there's a problem. That's not to say that the customer always is right, but they should be treated as such to the point that they walk away from the transaction happy. When Becca complained to you in e-mail the first time, you should have apologized and done what was right. This problem should NEVER have made it to a public forum. That's completely unnecessary, provided the company being commissioned does what they can to sort things out.

And now you've come here to post that you WERE going to give her a refund, but now you'll "just have to see if there's anything else to fix first" which shows me that you are not a company I would ever hire for work. That's just spiteful and has no place in the professional world. In short, you have a lot to learn.


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## JeffreyKafer (May 22, 2011)

Heavycat's reply was sooo wrong. The client was unhappy and vented on a forum. S/he then complained about the customer in the forum OF OTHER POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS. Apparently HeavyCat doesn't want any more customers.

The best and only response should have been "We apologize for the delay in communication, we've resolved the matter privately with the client. We regret the error."

It amazes me how creative types decide to go into business without really understanding the basics of business.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I did escalate to Paypal after my emails went unanswered.  The resolution was that I would have my drawings in 4-6 weeks.  These were not full-page illustrations, but spot art - the "whole book" consisted of a total of 15-18 small drawings.  

I did not hear anything back within the 4-6 weeks.  Since I had my operation during that time, it didn't bother me.  the next thing I heard was in January when they declined my commission. I may have been a bit impatient, but between Jan 4 and Jan 30 I asked twice what the mechanism for my repayment would be, and got no response.

I will email them at the last address I had for them that my preference would be paypal as soon as possible. I'll report back when/if I hear anything.


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## Scarlett_R (Sep 30, 2011)

JMHO- from my experience, suggestions for anyone wanting to enter into an artist/client relationship (you may be the artist, or the author):

I don't know why there is repetition of complaints about HeavyCat across the board. In my experience, if there are complaints from multiple people- enough for them to need to publicly express their disappointment- then something isn't working.

Things will continue to break down if change doesn't happen. I don't know Becca personally but we've chatted over her work, and I find her to be lovely and communicative.

*In ANY artist-client relationship the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS COMMUNICATION.*

There should never be months, even _weeks_, that go by without touching base. If there are clients who are complaining, then there's something broken in the line of communicating to each other. They're confused about something and it's the artist's responsibility to make sure they know what's happening, even if it's coming down to refunding an amount.

I fully acknowledge that I don't know both sides of the story. I just want to say that it is the responsibility of both sides of the parties to reach out to the other if they're confused, feeling like they're in the dark about something, frustrated, or needing answers. For all artists who are working with authors, please please please learn how to be to the point, express clear outlines and deadlines- and if there aren't any keep in constant contact rather than just leaving your clients in the dark. We, the artists, always know what's happening all the time. On the other end, it's just radio silence. We can't expect our clients to know how it works, that's our job. Our job is to tell them what to expect, how it works, and to *keep on talking to them throughout the process*.

I believe HeavyCat truly did what they feel to be right, I think the only thing that might be missing is that they may not have talked it out with their clients as much as their clients needed them to. My clients need information, understanding, sympathy and kindness. They may be completely new to the process, they may not be, but it's just so important to make sure the author's I work with at least have some understanding of what's going on, and that if they have questions or need information- I'm there to answer them right away.

tl;dr: If you're an artist or designer- please don't expect your clients to know how the process works. Talk to them, communicate with them, give them all the info they need. Trust is built through being open and responsive with each other.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2014)

beccaprice said:


> I may have been a bit impatient, but between Jan 4 and Jan 30 I asked twice what the mechanism for my repayment would be, and got no response.


As an FYI: I generally give companies* 5 days *to respond to my complaints before I escalate. And when I escalate, it isn't to a forum. It is to the state Consumer Affairs or the BBB.

We Sith don't play around.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I guess we're at a parade and someone wants to us to believe everyone is out of step...you know...besides Johnny.

The very bottom line is this: She commissioned you on October 3rd, according to my calculations that was just shy of 4 months ago. In December you decided to go your separate ways and refund her....in January...and that magic day just so happened so be TODAY (of all days) January 31st. How ironic. But now, because she's spoken up for herself, you're _not_ doing that? And you want us to believe that this is all _her_ problem?

Listen, no business is without complaints, I understand that and ergo I, personally, expect perfection from no one ... however, you seem to have similar issues over and over and you never take the onus of responsibility for any of it. As my Momma likes to say: More than two and it's you.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Heavy Cat, this thread has nothing to do with people being bored and trying to stir up drama. In fact, I was willing to believe that the whole story might not have been told and that this might just be a misunderstanding. But if I had any doubt before that there is something wrong with the way you deal with your clients, this sentence alone tells me all I need to know about your business practices.



heavycat said:


> With all your kind indulgence, we'll distill this down to the basic facts as I'm sure we all have better things to do than *hold a convention around a hundred bucks and change.*


Not only is the timeline you laid out damning to the excuses you gave, the mere fact that you're willing to disclose your client's financial investment in her project on a public forum destroys the last sliver of doubt that I had about your innocence in the whole thing. I ordinarily wouldn't have posted in this thread except I've been considering hiring you to produce some work for me for a while. I really like some of the work you do. I'm very thankful the OP posted this thread. Not only is it a public service, it just saved me tons of grief.



Scarlett_R said:


> *In ANY artist-client relationship the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS COMMUNICATION.*


Amen. A lack of communication from someone I'm paying to do a job is a deal-breaker in my world.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

JeffreyKafer said:


> It amazes me how creative types decide to go into business without really understanding the basics of business.


Are you talking about illustrators or authors?  (That may be my first smiley thingy! Or one of them.)


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm willing to believe this was a case of the service provider flaking out, rather than an intentional scam. But that's the best I can say after heavycat's response. I'm sorry but when a client is unhappy with the progress of your work, your response should never be that the money in question is small change or that you're basically doing them a favor anyway. When you take money for a service, it's _not_ a favor. And when a client requests a refund for undelivered work, putting them off, even for a couple weeks, is inexcusable. The refund should have been delivered within 24-48 hours of Becca's initial request. And now, heavycat, you say you _were going _to refund the money today but now you're not. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't an implication the client should delete this thread if she ever wants to see her money back. Instead, I'll be gentle and say your statement is highly irregular.

Becca appears to have made reasonable attempts over the past several weeks to resolve this matter with you in private before your failure to respond forced her to take her complaint public. I don't appreciate your attempts to embarrass her for starting this thread or your references to her money as small change. $130 is certainly a sufficient amount to be disturbed about losing, as evidenced by your reluctance or inability to refund it in a timely manner. And that's all I have to say about that.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I just got a note from them saying that my refund will be processed on Feb 11, contingent on my publishing (here, I imagine, and on FB) that I have indeed received a refund in full.

At least now I have a specific date to look at.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

beccaprice said:


> I just got a note from them saying that my refund will be processed on Feb 11, contingent on my publishing (here, I imagine, and on FB) that I have indeed received a refund in full.
> 
> At least now I have a specific date to look at.


Wow. I can't get over how unprofessional heavycat has been. I'm sorry you had this experience, Becca, but thank you for sharing with the rest of KB. You probably saved quite a few people from a major loss - not to mention a big hassle.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

heavycat said:


> Ultimately these threads are about drama. This entire project was nothing but drama from day one. I think we managed to get a few sketches done in between demands, belligerent e-mails and general complaining. And the ironic thing is I first responded to the client right here on Kboards because they complained they couldn't get their illustrations done. (I'll let that one go)


I don't know becca and I don't know you. All I have to go on is how each of you comports yourself in a thread.

I've seen how becca has reacted and now I've seen yours and I can assure you, the 'drama' you talk about started the moment you came on the board to 'defend yourself' and ended up showing your butt far bigger and better than any negative talk about you could have done. becca has done all that was required of her to get the work she paid for. And she's been nice about it, as well.

This thread and your 'professional response', like the others, are now on record for anyone who does a search on you before doing business to see just what you think of your clients. So, a congratulations is in order, I suppose.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I really want to thank everybody reading this thread for all the support I've gotten here. It makes me proud to be a member of this community.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

beccaprice said:


> I just got a note from them saying that my refund will be processed on Feb 11, contingent on my publishing (here, I imagine, and on FB) that I have indeed received a refund in full.
> 
> At least now I have a specific date to look at.


Contingent? You mean they won't refund you if you don't say they did? 
What kind of crap is this?

*They have to refund you because they didn't do their job. Period.*
You do not have to do anything else beside getting back your money.

This is a typical manipulative way of keeping "control", by enforcing rules upon which they will or will not do what they must do. I know them manipulators by heart. And if you don't comply to those rules they decided uniterally on, you're going to be labelled (again) the drama queen.

Heavycat, Becca doesn't have to follow your "rules". You have to refund her because it's what's right, not on some bullfaff condition of yours.

Where are the damn pitchforks when we need them?!


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

As long as I get my $135 back, they can ask me to say that they personally flew out to SE Michigan and handed it to me in cash, and I'd do it. I'm just so tired of this whole thing.

Now I have to talk to Annette, and see whether she can fit in some more drawings for me in and around her cover work.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> Contingent? You mean they won't refund you if you don't say they did?
> What kind of crap is this?
> 
> *They have to refund you because they didn't do their job. Period.*
> ...


Agreed. Heavycat's behavior towards Becca, and in this thread, has been sickening to say the least.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks there have been reports.  It sounds like this is resolved.  I'm going to lock the thread.

Becca, when you get your refund, if you wish to share that, let me or Betsy know and we'll so post on your behalf.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

At approximately noon today, I got a notice from PayPal that $139 had been deposited to my account. Within a couple of cents, this is the amount I was due minus the PayPal transaction fee. Them adding the additional $4 was not necessary, but was a graceful gesture.

While I'm sorry that things turned out the way they did, I'm glad that the situation is now resolved to my satisfaction.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for letting us know, Becca.  Per our discussion, I've relocked the thread.

Betsy
KB Mod


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