# Yes, you can be honest, kind, and still be successful ...



## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

One of the most depressing things I've read on recent threads is new authors despairing because they think that they have to be dishonest to be successful. That is not true. There are lots of authors out there who aren't on NYT or USAT lists who are selling hundreds of thousands of books a year. A lot of them are really nice (**waves at Rosalind**)

I'm nowhere near that level, but I am making a good living at this gig. One of the reasons I've been able to is because of multi-author sets and cross promotional opportunities I've been part of. A lot of these have come to me after a big name author decided I am, in her words, "a nice and helpful person." And from that one opportunity, other opportunities have come. They haven't MADE my business, but they sure have helped.

Take a deep breath.

A lot of the scams come from desperation to succeed *right now*, but it's not normal to succeed after just three books.

You can build your business slowly and steadily, and you will have something built on solid foundations when you're "done."


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> A lot of the scams come from desperation to succeed *right now*, but it's not normal to succeed after just three books.
> 
> You can build your business slowly and steadily, and you will have something built on solid foundations when you're "done."


That word... desperation ... has come to my mind a lot recently. It's one of the reasons I always like the posts here from people who are _*not*_ superstars. We need reminders that the superstars are the outliers, not everyone else.


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## RRodriguez (Jan 8, 2017)

This is so strange. Why in the world would someone think they'd have to be dishonest to be successful? Where did that idea come from??


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

RRodriguez said:


> This is so strange. Why in the world would someone think they'd have to be dishonest to be successful? Where did that idea come from??


New writers tend to not have a bigger picture of the industry and read a few posts here and there, or focus on one or two writers to follow, and develop a narrow viewpoint. Not out of malice or intent, just genuine ignorance of the bigger industry. And that's not a slight, just a fact of being a newbie. We've all been there. The better informed a writer is, the better decisions they'll make.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

RRodriguez said:


> This is so strange. Why in the world would someone think they'd have to be dishonest to be successful? Where did that idea come from??


Because black hat methods are shortcuts to success and used by some to great effect. The long, honest haul is more daunting and seldom crowed about.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree. I got my USA Today Bestseller status through a legitimate box set, but it hasn't done anything for my sales numbers. (I did it because I wanted to give myself an edge in getting BB ads, and because the organizers were/are two very awesome friends.) But my success has come from writing books people want to read. I don't know that I'll ever hit a list on my own and that's okay. My readers love my books and that's really what matters. The 2100+ reviews on my first Nocturne Falls book? That's all about my readers and nothing about those letters.

But my overnight success has taken nearly 8 years. (Many more if you count when I actually started writing instead of when I was first published.) I see so many new authors who want immediate results and those are few and far between in this business. It's a hard business, too. I work incredible hours every week to keep all the plates spinning. But that's what it takes.


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## Teresa Rook (Nov 20, 2016)

I've seen tons of kind, down-to-earth authors here leading by example. Thanks for being one of them. It helps!


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> One of the most depressing things I've read on recent threads is new authors despairing because they think that they have to be dishonest to be successful. That is not true. There are lots of authors out there who aren't on NYT or USAT lists who are selling hundreds of thousands of books a year. A lot of them are really nice (**waves at Rosalind**)
> 
> I'm nowhere near that level, but I am making a good living at this gig. One of the reasons I've been able to is because of multi-author sets and cross promotional opportunities I've been part of. A lot of these have come to me after a big name author decided I am, in her words, "a nice and helpful person." And from that one opportunity, other opportunities have come. They haven't MADE my business, but they sure have helped.
> 
> ...


I second that motion.


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## 74455 (Jan 9, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> You can build your business slowly and steadily, and you will have something built on solid foundations when you're "done."


Hear, hear!


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

I try to be kind and I try to be helpful and I try damn hard to be patient. That last one is hard, man. It pays off though. One year on I've met so many amazing, successful people - people who offer help and advice without a price tag, who counsel be to be *even more patient* and offer such sage  advice as 'grab an iced tea, sit down, and write a damn book.'  

I need to start drinking iced tea 😁 

I've made friends who are way more successful than me. And it's a quiet, long term success. These are the people I try to emulate and I'm very lucky to have them there to reach out to. I have friends at my level. They're the ones who keep my feet on the ground and my butt in the chair. They all serve as a reminder that integrity is worth more than success. Honesty and kindness bring more than a quick buck. That people can DO things in this industry, beyond writing and earning, and they don have to be a dick to do so.


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## AlexaGrave (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm constantly freaking out that I'll never be able to gain enough visibility to get any traction.

BUT I would never even consider having to do something dishonest to get ahead. And I in no way would imagine that all of the successful authors out there did something dishonest to get where they are!


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## Adomwrites (Nov 2, 2015)

I've been through that phase of wanting overnight success and unfortunately there are a lot of scammer and cons out there who will try and take advantage of this desperation. Words like yours put things back into perspective and help newbies realize that these things take years. Not only success but your craft as well. My first book was a travesty and I ended up unpublishing it.  We soon learn that honing our craft and writing better books will lead to success on it own, as opposed to resorting to dishonest tactics.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I agree, Carolyn, and you're one of the shining examples of somebody who is honest, kind, successful and super helpful. There are many other examples on the board - Annie B, Rosalind, Sela, Amanda, Mark Dawson, Rick, Chris Fox, etc., are all huge sellers who are ethical and will always help anybody out. There are others, for sure. 

I would like to think that the black-hatters are outliers, but I don't necessarily think that they are. But to do this job the right way enables you to look at yourself in the mirror and not wake up in a cold sweat because you're having nightmares about how you're conducting yourself. I did something wrong over thirty years ago, and it was relatively minor, but it still haunts me. I couldn't imagine how I would feel if I screwed a bunch of people over.

People who screw over others will get theirs. They always will in the end.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

I think people enjoy some ego gloating. I don't know. I'm incredibly thankful that this site has so many people who are brutally honest about their success and shortfalls. They're never hesitant to call something wrong out and provide the correct information. There's never some secret cabal between these people to keep others out. They are my rock. Without these people, I would have stopped writing and exited these boards years ago.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

C. Gockel, thank you for your words of encouragement. I'll admit to being one of those wavering in doubt this week. I haven't written much at all this week because I just keep thinking I'm doing it all wrong but...you know what? You're right. We can build our business slowly with a foundation built upon rock.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Because black hat methods are shortcuts to success and used by some to great effect. The long, honest haul is more daunting and seldom crowed about.


Karma is a witch with a capital B. I've talked to people longer at this than me and a lot of times those scams come crumbling down, and when they crumble, they crumble fast.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> C. Gockel, thank you for your words of encouragement. I'll admit to being one of those wavering in doubt this week. I haven't written much at all this week because I just keep thinking I'm doing it all wrong but...you know what? You're right. We can build our business slowly with a foundation built upon rock.


That's what I wanted to do. It took me YEARS to have a solid foundation in this business. And actually, at this point it's only "solidish.' Amazon changing terms about box sets or Nook going belly up could have really harsh consequences for me.

If you have a day job, save money before you go full-time so you have a years savings in the event you need to make a major shift in your tactics / writing.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I second that motion.


Knew you would.  Thanks for being one of the good ones.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> But my overnight success has taken nearly 8 years.


That's a story I hear over and over. If you count the years I spent writing fanfiction for free I've been at this gig nearly 8 years, too.

Thanks for sticking around here.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I've seen tons of kind, down-to-earth authors here leading by example. Thanks for being one of them. It helps!


I am trying to help. It can get so depressing when you think you have to go against your own ethics. Been there. Done that. Don't want other people to feel alone. There are great people here.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

This is a fantastic thread. 

Some of the people who've grown to have really spectacular writing careers are also the most generous with their time and their advice.  I am personally grateful to a number of them who give just for the sake of giving.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> A lot of the scams come from desperation to succeed *right now*, but it's not normal to succeed after just three books.
> 
> You can build your business slowly and steadily, and you will have something built on solid foundations when you're "done."


One of the first things I tell people who ask about starting out is to acknowledge you're starting at the bottom and work from there. There's no shame in it. We all started at zero facebook followers, no page reads, the brown bar in KDP. Sure some people will hit it out of the park on their first try, but you can't beat yourself up over it and call yourself a failure because you're not one of them. Write, learn, network, rinse and repeat.

Edited to add: treat people well along the way, whether they be readers or others in the industry.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

You can also make the USAT bestseller list without:
a) Selling your book for less than full price.
b) Spending a fortune.
c) Using unscrupulous methods.

I did it in October with a new release book priced at $4.99. I didn't advertise, I just did a long pre-order, then sent out my newsletter on the day of release and posted to socials. Didn't spend an extra cent. Plenty of authors do it but because they don't post here, we don't hear about it. 

Just keep writing books people want to read and TALK ABOUT. The readers will build over time, one by one. And if you don't make the USAT/NYT list, so what? I can tell you, it hasn't made a difference to my ongoing bottom line. Build your backlist of unput-downable books in a commercial series that fans are gagging to get their hands on and the money will come. Writing those books is the hard part, and the X factor that I, for one, can't identify (even in my own books). The point is, you never know which of your books/series will take off. So this one isn't selling too well? Try again with another idea. Maybe that's the one that will hit.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I agree, Carolyn, and you're one of the shining examples of somebody who is honest, kind, successful and super helpful.


Write back at you, Annie!  Your success story and your hard year, and comeback story are so inspiring to me. I know it could be me if the market changes and it's good to remember there are second chances!

I'm so thrilled you're finding success in your new genre.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I could not like Carolyn's post enough. She is good people.

Here are a few tips for newer writers on how to start networking successfully:

Early on I read an article that talked about forming a Writer Life Boat. Basically it's about surrounding yourself with other writers and you all help to keep each other afloat. Or in publishing terms, you share ideas about marketing, advertising, discuss the state of the industry, etc. 

Now, how do you find those people? Well, you look around and see who you like in the community and you start forming a group. Many of us belong to private Facebook groups where we network, bounce ideas, form partnerships, etc. Here's a tip: Don't wait for someone else to extend an invitation. Start making your own groups. Invite people you want to hang out with. That can be daunting when you're new and feel like you don't know anyone, but the worst they can do is say no. Pretty soon you'll likely find yourself in a number of groups and as you get to know more people, you'll figure out who your tribe is.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> She is good people.


So is Deanna! That little story you spurred me to write for_ Nightshade _is still bringing me fans, Deanna.



> Here's a tip: Don't wait for someone else to extend an invitation. Start making your own groups. Invite people you want to hang out with.


This is true for a lot of things, not just groups. Anthologies, group promos, giveaways, box sets (I am in a couple and believe they are totally a legit way to promote your work.) And don't just ask, "Can I be in an anthology with you," consider helping. These things are so much work, and even helping an organizer round up folks to be in it, is a huge deal. As is formatting, or doing the artwork. (I love you Christine Pope but you already know that because I told you yesterday.)


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

I feel blessed to have started out on the boards when some of the trailblazers in this business were here, sharing their knowledge, experience, trials, and successes. I learned more from that than anything else in my career, to date. Holly, Hugh, Liliana, Deborah, the list goes on and on. And the people who are here now, just starting out have a new group of ethical writers to look up to, thankfully. In any business, you have to make tough choices. Hopefully you make the right ones. But it definitely helps to have people who've built a solid business on ethics leading the way.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

I want to make an honest living writing, not a killing. I understand the initial need for marketing to get noticed and build an audience. After that, it'll be up to my writing to carry the momentum. If everything I put out ends up ranking in the 000,000s, I'll take down my writer's shingle and move on.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

C. Gockel,

As a prawn, I'm seconding the 'thank you' for this encouragement   It's good to hear it from someone I look up to (looking at you, up there!). One of the things that constantly encourages me about the authoring profession, and perhaps specifically the indie author gig, is the collegiality I perceive among certain authors (such as you!) of a certain caliber. I'm talking about the couple of classes of you doing the podcast circuits. When you show up for a second or third time on the SFF Marketing Podcast and it's like old friends reuniting over coffee, I'm all about that. You guys are presenting a good model of what it can look like to succeed and be kind. I suppose what this rambling ode comes down to is that I wanna be like you when I grow up  

Thanks again for the lovely thread.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Dpock said:


> I want to make an honest living writing, not a killing. I understand the initial need for marketing to get noticed and build an audience. After that, it'll be up to my writing to carry the momentum. If everything I put out ends up ranking in the 000,000s, I'll take down my writer's shingle and move on.


Mwahahaha. Everything I write hangs out in the high five to mid-six rankings. I will make six figures this year.

Why?

Those rankings only apply to Amazon US. I actually sell better in the UK. I also sell decently on DE and AU. I also sell reasonably well on other platforms that are not Amazon. Especially Kobo, but also B&N, Apple, and Google Play. I have a lot of books and a lot of series. When I focus on one series with a new release, the other series kinda fall away sometimes.

So, you know, if you want a long-term sustainable career and publish at a pace that keeps you happy, the sooner you divorce your sense of worth from the rankings of your books on Amazon US, the better.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Write back at you, Annie!  Your success story and your hard year, and comeback story are so inspiring to me. I know it could be me if the market changes and it's good to remember there are second chances!
> 
> I'm so thrilled you're finding success in your new genre.


Aw, thanks! You've always been one of the most helpful and encouraging person on this board.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> One of the most depressing things I've read on recent threads is new authors despairing because they think that they have to be dishonest to be successful. That is not true. There are lots of authors out there who aren't on NYT or USAT lists who are selling hundreds of thousands of books a year. A lot of them are really nice (**waves at Rosalind**)
> 
> I'm nowhere near that level, but I am making a good living at this gig. One of the reasons I've been able to is because of multi-author sets and cross promotional opportunities I've been part of. A lot of these have come to me after a big name author decided I am, in her words, "a nice and helpful person." And from that one opportunity, other opportunities have come. They haven't MADE my business, but they sure have helped.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this thread and for your encouraging words. I'd been feeling pretty down about the self-publishing community as of late, this helps.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I'd been feeling pretty down about the self-publishing community as of late, this helps.


I've been hearing this from a lot of places lately. There are great people in this industry, and on this board. Do your due diligence before you get involved in projects, but I do think most people are good and mean well.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Lynn is a pseud--uh said:


> I make a full time living (modest, for sure, but I pay all my bills every month without fail from my fiction earnings) and I don't even advertise anywhere, ever. It's possible. But my entire first 8 months self-publishing netted me about $300 total.
> 
> It takes time for a great many of us to reach full-time living levels of income even in hungry markets, especially if we don't take shortcuts or do active promoting, and the quicker the shortcut, the more likely you need to be *really* aware of what's going on there behind the scenes.


Could you outline what you do? I'm in an odd position that I started in e-books back when they were just beginning and there was lots of snobbery against them. So I have several titles out, and one I did a freebie promo on hit the Kindle Bestseller (#1) in sf, but that was free downloads and few sales. I'm now working on a fantasy series, the first 2 books of which are finished. Promo sites do bring hits and downloads but put me in the red because they have not brought actual sales. So I am reading all the posts about marketing to find out how one actually does a "launch" in these new days of acceptance of ebooks. At this point my head is spinning with all the promo sites that bring downloads but few sales, review sites that charge to put your book before reviewers where you are lucky to get 2 or 3 reviews. So any advice is so welcome! Thank you!


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## Valerie A. (Dec 31, 2016)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Yes, small business owners (including those self-publishing) have to wear many hats. But at the end of the day...are we here to write or advertise a product?


Both, I'm afraid. 

It's tempting for me to say I don't care how little I earn from writing because I make a good living from my "real" job. It's tempting to keep my writing entirely sheltered from the demands of the marketplace and from reader expectations. But that would be dishonest. Because I want recognition, I want to be read and understood if not liked, and with recognition comes some amount of money whether I want it or not. So in the spirit of this thread's title, if I am to be honest with myself, I must accept that marketing has to be an integral part of what I do as a writer.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> So in the spirit of this thread's title, if I am to be honest with myself, I must accept that marketing has to be an integral part of what I do as a writer.


There are people who hardly ever market and do very well. Amanda Lee (Yoda here on the boards) comes to mind. She does it by writing A LOT.

I market a lot. I can't seem to write more than 3,000 words a day, and usually write closer to 1,000. And then there are the days I edit ...


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Could you outline what you do?


Good book: a story, that you've run by a few beta readers and gotten feedback for. One where they say they forgot to edit for grammar because they got lost in the plot. (Run it by a real editor to make up for it.)
A good blurb
A good cover
Price pulse it to 99-cents, hit up a few advertising sites, repeat.

Repeat until you have at least a few books out.

If you've forgotten one of these steps you **CAN** go back and fix it.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

CynthiaClay said:


> Could you outline what you do?


I'm not Lynn, but here is the secret sauce:

1) Write in a genre that sells. It can be niche, but make sure there is a big enough audience that your books can sustain sales. 
2) Write a series. You need at least three books. Five or more is better. The reason for this is that you will spend marking dollars on the first in the series and the more books you have in the series, the further your ad dollars will go.
3) Release regularly. Best practices are every three or four months.
4) Have a newsletter where you can collect readers so you can email them every time you have a sale or a new release.

There are many more things I could touch on, but that is the basic formula.

Edited to add: the above assumes good book, professional on genre cover, and a catchy blurb.


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## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

This thread is a lovely palate cleanser for the week I'm having. Thanks for starting it <3


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

C. Gockel said:


> Good book: a story, that you've run by a few beta readers and gotten feedback for. One where they say they forgot to edit for grammar because they got lost in the plot. (Run it by a real editor to make up for it.)
> A good blurb
> A good cover
> Price pulse it to 99-cents, hit up a few advertising sites, repeat.
> ...


Thank you so much! I was thinking doing the 99cents ads for each but was unsure.

Here are my 2 covers. Any comments would be so helpful.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Deanna Chase said:


> I'm not Lynn, but here is the secret sauce:
> 
> 1) Write in a genre that sells. It can be niche, but make sure there is a big enough audience that your books can sustain sales. Check
> 2) Write a series. You need at least three books. Check
> ...


 My books do get good reviews (with the occasional piss review). Thank you so much!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> Mwahahaha. Everything I write hangs out in the high five to mid-six rankings. I will make six figures this year.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


This is my experience as well.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Cynthia, you should have a dedicated email/newsletter list just for your books. Look at something like Mailerlite or MailChimp. ONce you signup, you put a link to it on your website and in the backmatter of your books so readers can sign up for more. You don't buy a list, you cultivate your own readers.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> I'm not Lynn, but here is the secret sauce:
> 
> 1) Write in a genre that sells. It can be niche, but make sure there is a big enough audience that your books can sustain sales.
> 2) Write a series. You need at least three books. Five or more is better. The reason for this is that you will spend marking dollars on the first in the series and the more books you have in the series, the further your ad dollars will go.
> ...


All of that. Also professional cover art that fits your genre, a great book, a hooky description etc are the foundation.

Cynthia- people here are always around to give advice on improvements etc if you want to start a thread about your books specifically. I'm sure there are peeps who can help pinpoint things for you. (ETA just saw where you did that- disregard, haha)


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## Valerie A. (Dec 31, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> I can't seem to write more than 3,000 words a day, and usually write closer to 1,000.


3,000 would be counterproductive for me; I'd have a bad hangover on the next day 

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. A thread like this is a breath of fresh air.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Great post. A lot of writers who keep their heads down and just write without the drama are the ones you don't hear from because they are too busy actually writing -- well, unless they are on here procrastinating  

I do think that while being helpful is a great thing to do, and most people who've been on here a while have had others help them out, you can fall into the trap of 'just wanting to pick your brain' turning into a massive time sink. I know it's one of my issues and often it's the fault of the person asking but some kind of eldest sibling instinct taking over. Not to say it's a bad thing but it can be more productive to point the person to a few good resources and letting them take it from there


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> I could not like Carolyn's post enough. She is good people.
> 
> Here are a few tips for newer writers on how to start networking successfully:
> 
> ...


Deanna -

This is so much more important than most people realize, and most of them are going to misunderstand it. They are going to want to be in YOUR group, or some other group with their favorite authors who are way ahead of them who will give them "the secret."

From my experience (and I'm admittedly a small fish), that's not the way it works. You group with people LIKE YOU - people who are at or close to your level and are learning the same things you are. Maybe you luck out and get a few people who have been around longer and know more, maybe you don't. But you find people you trust and you can share ups and downs with. You need people you would want to hang out with even if they can't tell you "the secret."

My author friends have kept me writing when I was ready to give up. They've pointed me to opportunities and warned me away from impending disasters. We cheer each other on and commiserate over each others setbacks. Life Boat is a great term!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

IreneP said:


> Deanna -
> 
> This is so much more important than most people realize, and most of them are going to misunderstand it. They are going to want to be in YOUR group, or some other group with their favorite authors who are way ahead of them who will give them "the secret."
> 
> From my experience (and I'm admittedly a small fish), that's not the way it works. You group with people LIKE YOU - people who are at or close to your level and are learning the same things you are. Maybe you luck out and get a few people who have been around longer and know more, maybe you don't.


Oh, yes. All of this. Very important. You want people who are coming up in their careers at or around your same level. Authors who have been around for years are at a very different place and have different challenges. You want people who can relate to you.

And P.s. There's really no secret. Not one that you can't find right here on Kboards anyway if you listen.


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

sela said:


> This is my experience as well. You do _not_ need to be top 100 or even 1000 to make a living at self publishing. You do not need a USAT or NYTs designation to have a nice career as an indie. You need to build a catalogue of books that sell reasonably well.
> 
> Currently, my books range from 10,000s all the way up to 80,000s in rank. None are in the top 1000 in the Kindle store. That's okay. I have a few bigger sellers and a few lower sellers, and I do well enough on other retailers and have audio books and am able to take home five figures a month. Sometimes higher five figures and sometimes lower, depending on whether I have a big promo or new release.
> 
> ...


Agree with both Sela and Patty.

If you look at my Amazon rankings, you'd probably first chuckle then go "awww", but I sell okay through the other channels. Nothing earth shattering (or even pretty good) but I do sell there, and that's with pretty much no promoting to those other sites. My only marketing these days is AMS.

As for ways and means of getting letters, I don't give a hoot about that. I'm the Ramage Household's Best Selling Author, as I like to tell my family. Who else can claim that title? 

I'd rather slog away, writing down all these stories in my head (of which there is a lot) and finesse my (legit/above board) marketing skills than even consider any nefarious means.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> We all started at zero facebook followers, no page reads, the brown bar in KDP.


This is a great thread, but as an aside, OMG, I'd forgotten about the Brown Bar of Shame.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> You can build your business slowly and steadily, and you will have something built on solid foundations when you're "done."


I'm one of those slow and steady authors. I started in 2013 with 30 sales a month (which at the time, blew my mind) and have built my business and my name through professionalism and a passion for my work. I've always wanted to look back and be proud of what I've achieved. I've never really 'hit big', but most of you here know me, have spoken with me, and we've become friends.

After four years, I've learned this: It's not a race to the top. We're all different. We all succeed in different ways. The path is just as important as the destination. We all learn from our mistakes, and those mistakes make us stronger. If you rush to the top, blind to the hows and the whys, it's very easy to be undermined, left trying to keep your head above the water, wondering what went wrong.

Rick mentions treating people well along the way, whether they be readers or others in the industry. This is so important and something I've always tried to adhere to as a businesswoman. You aren't always extended the same courtesy by others, but that's okay. As long as you can be proud of your achievements and your journey, when all is said and done, isn't that all that really matters?

_Edited to add, I've been writing for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure 'overnight success' is an urban legend  _


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

This is a great thread, and a great antidote to some of the depressing stuff elsewhere. Thank you, OP!

I'm another of those slow upward and onward people. I've never troubled the top 1000, and a new release typically hits around 7-10K before dropping back. Current rankings are from mid-5-figure to low-6-figure, apart from one book on promo, which has daringly ventured as high as 14K. And yet I make decent money every month. It's not living-wage money, and certainly not order-the-yacht money, but it's a very nice addition to the monthly income. It's taken me two and a half years to get to this point, plus several years of writing before I published anything, but that's OK. There's a lot of talk about writing and publishing fast, which is fine if you can do that, but slow and steady suits me better.

On another point, I'd second the advice to newbies to form your own group with people at your own stage of writing/publishing. That way you all learn together. A mentor/mentee group is a very different animal, and there's a place for that too, but for your special group, choose people at your own level. Look around Kboards, and pick out nice-sounding people that you feel you'd like to be friends with. Then PM them. I was lucky enough to be invited to join a group like that two years ago, and it's been absolutely the best thing that's happened to me in my (short!) writing career, so I highly recommend it. Everyone needs a safe space where people understand.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I used to really really want those letters. I'd gone from being one of the bestselling indies in YA to struggling to make ends meet and there was a brief period where I was desperate to get those letters because I thought it would turn everything around for me. I tried with my own boxed set with a ton of advertising and wasn't even close. I just lost money. I tried with joint boxed sets and even went along when I was unsure about the methods being used. It never happened (and now I'm glad it never happened because it would feel tainted).

So instead I decided to look at what I was doing and make a change. I switched genres and wrote something completely fresh and new under a new pen name. I put in the research for this genre and I wrote the best books I could write. The third book was released in January this year and has sold over 300k copies (not including page reads, they're at about 52 million so far). It reached number one in the UK and Australia and stayed there for around two months. It reached number one in the US and stayed in the top ten (where it is currently) for weeks. 

I'd given up hope that anything was going to happen for me and I'd lost confidence in my writing. But the last three books have changed everything for me.

Cross promotion is great but don't get lost in it. Find the confidence in your own book and focus on that. 

As always, the best way to succeed is to write in a popular genre that you LOVE. Don't be afraid to focus more on craft than on business. Both are important, but one is essential.

You can do this, and you can do it quietly and confidently on your own if you want to. I don't have any USAT bestseller list or anything like that but I found a way that worked for me and stuck to it.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I think it's all about your peers. I'm lucky enough to know a lot of writers, from self-published striplings like myself, through solid small press novelists, to bestsellers from trad pub land. The one thing they have in common (apart from being massive geeks, obviously), is their integrity. And when I'm looking at some sort of marketing effort, I do apply a quick "would I feel good telling my mates about this in a pub?" test.

If I knew more writers who were a bit ethically... flexible, then I'm pretty sure I'd take a different view of the world.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

sarahdalton said:


> I used to really really want those letters. I'd gone from being one of the bestselling indies in YA to struggling to make ends meet and there was a brief period where I was desperate to get those letters because I thought it would turn everything around for me. I tried with my own boxed set with a ton of advertising and wasn't even close. I just lost money. I tried with joint boxed sets and even went along when I was unsure about the methods being used. It never happened (and now I'm glad it never happened because it would feel tainted).
> 
> So instead I decided to look at what I was doing and make a change. I switched genres and wrote something completely fresh and new under a new pen name. I put in the research for this genre and I wrote the best books I could write. The third book was released in January this year and has sold over 300k copies (not including page reads, they're at about 52 million so far). It reached number one in the UK and Australia and stayed there for around two months. It reached number one in the US and stayed in the top ten (where it is currently) for weeks.
> 
> ...


This is epic and such a wonderful achievement.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

D-C said:


> This is epic and such a wonderful achievement.


Thank you!

We've been in a box set together I think Pippa? Was it Before Moonlight or something like that?  Nice to see you again.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

sarahdalton said:


> Thank you!
> 
> We've been in a box set together I think Pippa? Was it Before Moonlight or something like that?  Nice to see you again.


I think so. It was a while ago, wasn't it?

I think we started publishing around the same time?


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

Valerie A. said:


> 3,000 would be counterproductive for me; I'd have a bad hangover on the next day
> 
> Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. A thread like this is a breath of fresh air.


You need to build up your drink--er, writing tolerance.


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## AYClaudy (Oct 2, 2014)

I read through this thinking I could quote so many things written here. This thread is great! 

About the letters-- and I do want them-- I think it's important to remember that they are like a trophy. It's what you get when you're doing well, not something that MAKES you do well. A racer doesn't buy a trophy thinking it will help them win the next race. 

There's so much great advice already said here; it's just what I needed to read this morning. Here's my add: Focus on your work, your readers, gaining FANS that follow you (Anyone watch JA Huss's FREE craft and marketing videos? She makes the distinction between fans and readers. Highly recommend watching them on her website, if you havn't). And while watching what others are doing can help you learn, you're not in a race with them, so focus on your platform. 

For those that may be like me and discouraged by the finding your tribe talk, it's okay if your tribe is just one other person-- or even just google. I only happened to find a good friend in this whole process after I started publishing, before that google was my best friend. Read others advice, but research it further, and then do what works for you.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

I'm a new author, but I wasn't born yesterday and this isn't new. Folks here are helpful, kind, and patient (mostly). Dale Carnegie observations should always be followed, regardless of what industry you're in.

Outside of a few FB groups and KBoards, I have _no_ author friends, save the one I assisted getting their children's book to print.

I don't need author friends.

*But* you are all valuable and it's foolish to not heed your advice and wisdom. While I'm working this endeavor solo, this group is here, you are all mentors in the business. That's what I truly need.

More friends are always welcome and preferred, of course.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CynthiaClay said:


> Could you outline what you do? I'm in an odd position that I started in e-books back when they were just beginning and there was lots of snobbery against them. So I have several titles out, and one I did a freebie promo on hit the Kindle Bestseller (#1) in sf, but that was free downloads and few sales. I'm now working on a fantasy series, the first 2 books of which are finished. Promo sites do bring hits and downloads but put me in the red because they have not brought actual sales. So I am reading all the posts about marketing to find out how one actually does a "launch" in these new days of acceptance of ebooks. At this point my head is spinning with all the promo sites that bring downloads but few sales, review sites that charge to put your book before reviewers where you are lucky to get 2 or 3 reviews. So any advice is so welcome! Thank you!


I released my first book five years ago (my anniversary was two weeks ago). A five book UF series and two failed romances later, I went all in when KU2 was announced and started hanging out on KBoards. I've had an account here since 2012, but at that time I was more interested in craft than marketing, and felt this place was for Amazon authors, and I was determined to be wide.

Two years after finishing my first series, I released a new book in December using what I've learned on this board from all the people who genuinely want to help, who want to see others succeed. Great cover, a blurb that was communally wordsmithed, and a promo campaign using what I've learned here. January of 2017 was my best year ever. I released the second book in the series in March, and March beat January. I'm now among the quarterly tax crowd.

Yes, you can do it. One of the most inspiring things I've seen on this board was a graph posted by Annie Bellet showing her yearly earnings. From almost nothing, year after year, then a major bump, then an even more major bump. And to my knowledge, she did it without sacrificing any cats or the neighbors' children.

If you have a thick enough skin to survive the 1-star brigade, then ask for help on this forum and TAKE IT. All too many newbies ask for help and them argue with the people who try to help. It ain't always pretty, and it ain't always kind, but the grand majority of it is valuable.

Good luck.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

kenbritz said:


> I don't need author friends.


No one _needs_ author friends. I mean, they tend to wander off in weird directions, drink all your coffee and laugh at inappropriate moments. But they sure are fun to have.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

MyraScott said:


> No one _needs_ author friends. I mean, they tend to wander off in weird directions, drink all your coffee and laugh at inappropriate moments. But they sure are fun to have.


Pretty sure I do need mine. And thankful for them every day. (It helps that they're pretty stinkin' fun too.)


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## Guest (May 5, 2017)

Being dishonest and conducting in shady practices may get you short term gains. But if you want to be a respected novelist who makes a good living, there really is only one way to do it. I don't mean only one method. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of those. I mean you have to write good books that people enjoy; work hard to get your self known; and keep pressing forward. This is true whether you are an indie or a traditional author. 
The fact is, only a very few writers will have any degree of commercial success. Few people possess the right combination of talents and skills to become professional novelists. Those who do and are able to turn their abilities into a career do so using very simple and straight forward methods. There is no magic bullet or shady scheme that will take the place of talent and drive. It may look that way...for a while. But in the end, the results are always the same.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

sarahdalton said:


> I used to really really want those letters. I'd gone from being one of the bestselling indies in YA to struggling to make ends meet and there was a brief period where I was desperate to get those letters because I thought it would turn everything around for me. I tried with my own boxed set with a ton of advertising and wasn't even close. I just lost money. I tried with joint boxed sets and even went along when I was unsure about the methods being used. It never happened (and now I'm glad it never happened because it would feel tainted).
> 
> So instead I decided to look at what I was doing and make a change. I switched genres and wrote something completely fresh and new under a new pen name. I put in the research for this genre and I wrote the best books I could write. The third book was released in January this year and has sold over 300k copies (not including page reads, they're at about 52 million so far). It reached number one in the UK and Australia and stayed there for around two months. It reached number one in the US and stayed in the top ten (where it is currently) for weeks.
> 
> ...


Sarah, so happy to hear about your success. I remember when you posted on AW about going full-time and was rooting for you.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> No one _needs_ author friends. I mean, they tend to wander off in weird directions, drink all your coffee and laugh at inappropriate moments. But they sure are fun to have.


And if you get a good group that's supportive and willing to tell you what you need to hear, it's amazing.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

I follow pretty much the same plan as Deanna.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> As always, the best way to succeed is to write in a popular genre that you LOVE. Don't be afraid to focus more on craft than on business. Both are important, but one is essential.
> 
> You can do this, and you can do it quietly and confidently on your own if you want to. I don't have any USAT bestseller list or anything like that but I found a way that worked for me and stuck to it.


This is really true. Also, Sarah, I think you're a wonderful writer and am sad that you ever doubted yourself. Please PM me your pen name!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> ... Annie Bellet showing her yearly earnings. From almost nothing, year after year, then a major bump, then an even more major bump. And to my knowledge, she did it without sacrificing any cats or the neighbors' children.


I think it was a goat.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

It's all a reminder that the business isn't a straight line, so don't expect one. Nothing is a guarantee. The only real guarantee is constant learning, and hopefully you find the right alchemy that catches the public's attention. There's no guarantee of that, either.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> This is really true. Also, Sarah, I think you're a wonderful writer and am sad that you ever doubted yourself. Please PM me your pen name!


Thank you! 

Don't worry it isn't a secret pen name. It's Sarah A Denzil and the book that took off is Silent Child.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Just what are these unscrupulous shortcuts? So I can avoid them, of course...


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Another good thread, Carolyn! Thanks for posting it.

My feeling is, if you want to become a selling author, you must first focus on your craft. Yes, it's work, and yes, it takes time. But there's no substitute for knowing how to actually, you know, write. You don't need to join a forum to ask how to write dialog, or how long a paragraph or chapter should be. You learn that by reading writing books, and by practicing.

Practice helps with your voice, your storytelling. There's no shortcut to it, either. Time and effort. Many don't want to hear it. They want the "secret", and the truth is, that's the secret:  know your craft, tell good stories, present them well. Over and over.

By studying the market, you learn what genres are doing well, and how those books are written. You see how the covers look, you can study blurbs and see what makes you want to read that book. Again, you practice.

Yawn.

I see lots of people who have been suckered by the "write whatever you want and sit back and become a Kindle millionaire" scammy stuff. Or, hire ghostwriters for erotica, and make billions. Or any genre. Romance is easy, slap something up and get rich! I've seen someone on another forum advise people to find some mythical hot niche (when they finally gave examples, the niches were neither hot, nor actual niches), write a book that's of a lower standard than those that are selling, don't edit, don't worry about the cover, and they'll make loads of money. I kid you not.

I am grateful for the friends I've made over the years since I started down this road. I'm in a private group now that have some authors doing really well, some fair to middling, and some like me who are struggling to get their feet under them. We help and encourage each other, with no judgement and no ethical shenanigans. If you can find a group like that (not all newbies, that's like the blind leading the blind), join it and do everything you can to keep it going. It's like free gold. If you can't, then this forum will be the best guide you can find for what's going on, how you promote those good books you've been working on, how to pivot when things change -- and they will. Often.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> I think it was a goat.


Oh. I live in a city. Can you order goats from Amazon?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> Oh. I live in a city. Can you order goats from Amazon?


You can order _everything_ from Amazon.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> Oh. I live in a city. Can you order goats from Amazon?


Of course. https://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-Toys-1505-Buffy/dp/B000S92MM2/


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> And if you get a good group that's supportive and willing to tell you what you need to hear, it's amazing.


Exactly. Ultimately we need to focus more on readers than other authors, but finding a good group that you mesh well with is amazingly awesome. It's like having multiple work wives and / or husbands, which makes you kind of an author polygamist which means ... okay this is getting weird. Let's just agree on that amazing thing you said.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Of course. https://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-Toys-1505-Buffy/dp/B000S92MM2/


Now I'm thinking I must buy this for Annie.


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## Stewart Matthews (Nov 21, 2014)

Honesty and kindness is all well and good, but I want to top the charts NOW.

Building a back catalog? Earning an audience? Uh, whoa guys, that sounds like WORK to me, and I WAS NOT struck by the dream of being a wealthy author when I read JK Rowling was a billionaire because I like doing WORK!

Money is NO object. I will throw all of my cash into a PIT if I get to be #1 on Amazon and light that pit ON FIRE. Please PM me with details.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

MyraScott said:


> No one _needs_ author friends. I mean, they tend to wander off in weird directions, drink all your coffee and laugh at inappropriate moments. But they sure are fun to have.


You skipped the next paragraphs. There's nothing wrong with author friends. Friends (as a super/parent genre of 'author friends' sub genre) are valuable by their nature. But friends do not always give the same advice as mentors. Hope that's clear, and enjoy your author friends, friends, and mentors!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

AYClaudy said:


> For those that may be like me and discouraged by the finding your tribe talk, it's okay if your tribe is just one other person-- or even just google. I only happened to find a good friend in this whole process after I started publishing, before that google was my best friend. Read others advice, but research it further, and then do what works for you.


My tribe started out with just one person. It can be tough to put yourself out there, but when you do, good things can happen.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Of course. https://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-Toys-1505-Buffy/dp/B000S92MM2/


Nope. You have to draw the line someplace, and if success means cutting the stuffing out of something that cute, I'll just remain a failure. I do have to look in the mirror in the morning and I don't think I can handle seeing the spawn of satan staring back at me.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Nope. You have to draw the line someplace, and if success means cutting the stuffing out of something that cute, I'll just remain a failure. I do have to look in the mirror in the morning and I don't think I can handle seeing the spawn of satan staring back at me.


Solution:

I can has fluffy goat, yes?


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

sarahdalton said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Don't worry it isn't a secret pen name. It's Sarah A Denzil and the book that took off is Silent Child.


Not to derail the thread, but Sarah, Silent Child is one of the best books I've read this year! I'm currently reading The Broken Ones. Kudos to you and so happy for your success! 

To all the brilliant writers and readers on these boards,

I truly appreciate your words of wisdom, your willingness to help when needed, and your honesty. I may not post often, but I am paying attention. I do heed your warnings and I am inspired daily by each and every one of you. Thank you!


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I think the biggest problem I see was addressed in the opening statement: "right now"

We are an on demand society and all the get rich quick people have convinced a huge majority that there's a twelve step program to riches in publishing. And yeah, a lot of scammers made some fast money before holes were plugged, but it's getting a little harder. Unfortunately, those that don't want to do the hard work of becoming a better writer and learning the business of publishing look for shortcuts. The reality is there are no ethical shortcuts. 

I have been called an outlier for years and I'm sure plenty of authors dismiss what I say because I couldn't possibly know. But here's what no one wants to hear: I have been writing for sixteen years. My first book was published by NY twelve years ago. I had a full time career as a CFO until 4.5 years ago but I also wrote full time. So more than two full time jobs because CFOs don't work a 40-hour week. I went fifteen years with no vacation, not even a weekend to a campground. I went for a stretch of over five years with only one day off and that's because I had a 6 am surgery. I missed birthdays and holidays with family and saw my friends/family who lived within an hour of me only a handful of times every year. When I quit my day job, I didn't decrease my hours. I simply transferred them to indie and went hard at it 80-100 hours a week for years. THIS year is the first time I have taken a step back and decided I need to gain balance because I've worked myself far past the extent of my health. 

It didn't happen overnight. It never does. When I get people asking me how to do what I did but who have one book out and want it to happen this week, I don't have anything to say to them. There is no answer for that. The answer is keep working. Don't neglect craft. Don't neglect the business. 

Be patient.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

kenbritz said:


> You skipped the next paragraphs. There's nothing wrong with author friends. Friends (as a super/parent genre of 'author friends' sub genre) are valuable by their nature. But friends do not always give the same advice as mentors. Hope that's clear, and enjoy your author friends, friends, and mentors!


*Post quoted in limited context for comedic effect. No offense intended.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

So what you're telling me is that I can stop PM'ing people to tell them Betsy will use the cattle prod on them if they don't buy my books and I can still get sales?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Kristen Painter said:


> I think this is what you're looking for: https://www.amazon.com/Hire-a-Goat-Grazer/dp/B00UBYDXXQ


I don't think I live in the right zip code:

Low provider availability
We'll do our best to get you an estimate. If we're unable to find a pro, we'll email you.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> Mwahahaha. Everything I write hangs out in the high five to mid-six rankings. I will make six figures this year.


That's encouraging. Six figures a year means at a minimum selling 80 books a day (rough math there) at $4.99. I would be ecstatic earning just $20k a year.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Genre Hoarder said:


> Not to derail the thread, but Sarah, Silent Child is one of the best books I've read this year! I'm currently reading The Broken Ones. Kudos to you and so happy for your success!
> 
> To all the brilliant writers and readers on these boards,
> 
> I truly appreciate your words of wisdom, your willingness to help when needed, and your honesty. I may not post often, but I am paying attention. I do heed your warnings and I am inspired daily by each and every one of you. Thank you!


Ahh, thank you!! And good luck with your own writing. I hope you continue to find inspiration.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

One of the things that causes people to fail at this, then get desperate, is being unclear on what they really want. Everyone has a different definition of success. When I was younger, I might have been willing to work like Jana or Amanda, but I'm not there anymore. I've had a successful career earning six figures for a long time, and now I'm getting ready to retire. The goal I set for myself in 2017 was to average $50 a day in book revenues to supplement my retirement income when I retire at the end of the year. Then if I could double that in 2018, I'd be set. Enough to live on and enough to travel. The nice thing about this writing gig is you can do it anywhere. I'm going to have a picture taken of me writing on a sunny veranda in Gibraltar some day just to make everyone on this forum jealous. 

Life doesn't always go to plan. So far this year, I've already passed my year's revenue goal and I've only released one of the four books I hope to finish. And all without sacrificing a goat.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

alawston said:


> I think it's all about your peers. I'm lucky enough to know a lot of writers, from self-published striplings like myself, through solid small press novelists, to bestsellers from trad pub land. The one thing they have in common (apart from being massive geeks, obviously), is their integrity. And when I'm looking at some sort of marketing effort, I do apply a quick "would I feel good telling my mates about this in a pub?" test.
> 
> If I knew more writers who were a bit ethically... flexible, then I'm pretty sure I'd take a different view of the world.


Like so many of the posts in this thread, I thought this was quite wise.
And again, thank you OP, and to everyone contributing here, this thread is giving me life, helping me recognize the importance of patience and has me motoring through my word count today.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

MyraScott said:


> *Post quoted in limited context for comedic effect. No offense intended.


No worries and no offense either! [I do have one friend who wants to be an author. Going to help her along the journey since I'm a little ahead of her at the moment.]


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I might have been willing to work like Jana or Amanda, but I'm not there anymore. I've had a successful career earning six figures for a long time, and now I'm getting ready to retire.


I'm about there, too. I have two kids and I don't want to work full-time. I want to pick them up after school at the very least, and I'm so grateful for this gig because I was able to homeschool my son for a year and a half when he really needed it. (Which has been really hard for productivity.)


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I can has fluffy goat, yes?


What a cute puppy. Get him the fluffy goat right now!


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I love this thread, Carolynn. It's a great reminder that ethics matter. Our most valuable assets are our reputations, and people have long memories. The dark side is tempting, but it almost always carries a high cost. Run a business you can be proud of, and lift up the people around you. Rising tides and all that.

I'm happy to see a lot of old friends coming out of hiding for this one. I haven't seen Jana or Annie in forever. I still remember when Sarah was struggling too. Man I love seeing how well everyone is doing.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I think some of the folks in this biz approach this as a zero-sum thing. Someone else's success is what's causing their (perceived) lack of success. That can lead to a get-there-before-someone-beats-you-to-it mentality, and perhaps an ethical death spiral with an everybody-else-is-doing-it justification.

I've been writing for long enough that there was a time when I didn't bother to write something until i knew how I could pitch it to an agent, and that was an excellent way to kill creativity. But, if I wanted people to read it, that was the only path. Now, I'm writing what I want and I'm happier for it. Self-publishing is the freedom to write whatever and to reach readers directly without any other real hurdles in between. It means I can write books that don't fit in one particular genre without ever having to hear "it's really good but we don't feel like we know how to sell it" from another publisher.

I think industries that exist in the world of art--big publishers and Hollywood, specifically--eventually stop worrying about making art and start worrying about making money. I would like to make great art that makes a lot of money, but my focus has always been on the first part more than the second.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

GeneDoucette said:


> I think some of the folks in this biz approach this as a zero-sum thing. Someone else's success is what's causing their (perceived) lack of success. That can lead to a get-there-before-someone-beats-you-to-it mentality


Yes to this on my end. I admit that it's been very difficult to watch authors burst forth from nowhere who have either just started writing or been writing less time than myself, hit best-seller lists and make thousands within their first year. I'm on my second year of this and have majorly struggled but it's also been a blessing. Last year, I published very little (like 3 short stories) and focused on my craft. This year, I've been focusing still on craft but on getting more books out. I feel, a lot of times, that I'm doing something wrong because my books either don't sell or sell very little. I don't market...my funds are reserved for covers and editing. But I do have a lot of time to write, so that's my goal this year is to just put out the best products I can. It's just going to take me a long time for whatever reason, and that's a reality I've come to accept and surrender to.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Run a business you can be proud of, and lift up the people around you. Rising tides and all that.


This is so true. It is great to recommend books you love! It's true, Lois McMaster Bujold is unlikely to ever recommend my books back, but my fans LOVE her too, and they come back to me for my book recommendations. And it's great to give them the heads up about the new releases of other authors I know produce quality books even if they aren't exactly my style--my friends also let their fans know about my work ... and we've wound up with lots of fans in common. Win-win.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> I think some of the folks in this biz approach this as a zero-sum thing. Someone else's success is what's causing their (perceived) lack of success. That can lead to a get-there-before-someone-beats-you-to-it mentality, and perhaps an ethical death spiral with an everybody-else-is-doing-it justification.


As if a reader is going to be loyal to only one author. No matter how much I love reading my favorite author, I'm going to read other books as well. For one thing, I need something fresh. After reading eight or nine Gene Doucette books in a row, it's always refreshing to dive into the latest Carolyn Gockel novel.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> and perhaps an ethical death spiral with an everybody-else-is-doing-it justification.


A big part of this thread is to show that everyone else is not doing it.

Everyone read Gene's book the _Spaceship Next Door_! It is awesome and everything indie publishing can be.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I admit that it's been very difficult to watch authors burst forth from nowhere who have either just started writing or been writing less time than myself, hit best-seller lists and make thousands within their first year.


Something you have to remember, just because they haven't been publishing for more than a year, doesn't mean they haven't been writing.

I wrote fanfiction for three+ years before publishing ... a whole lot of it https://www.fanfiction.net/u/1959218/StarTrekFanWriter. Before that I was writing marketing materials for Fortune 500 companies. Before that I was programming apps for medical education. (Actually good for novel writing. You have to create a lot of pieces and pull them all together in the end. Also, it really builds patience.) Before that I was helping write a microbiology textbook to be used online. Before that I was obsessively compulsively writing emails ... long ones ... to friends overseas. Before that it was letters, on paper, with ink to my grandfather, sometimes four times a week. And I actually started writing my first novel length fiction in highschool for friends.

Ha, ha, ha ... and after all that it still took me a few years after I started self-publishing to make any real money. By "real," I mean $1000 a month.

So, you know, you're not really an outlier.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Mari Oliver said:


> Yes to this on my end. I admit that it's been very difficult to watch authors burst forth from nowhere who have either just started writing or been writing less time than myself, hit best-seller lists and make thousands within their first year.


Yeah, it happens sometimes. According to Author Earnings, only ten thousand authors earn $10,000 a year. They include Stephen King and Leo Tolstoy. I broke into that exclusive club this year, my sixth year of publishing. I only averaged $100 a month my first three years, and if I spend too much time hanging out here instead of writing, I could be back there again.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

There's a lot of outliers on kboards.  I'm pretty sure we're not entirely representative of the whole here.  I mean, there's 5 million books in the kindle store and of those only about 2% sell in any quantity.  

It is NOT an easy path to walk.  Even harder when you commit yourself to the straight and narrow.  And there's definitely no guarantee you'll make it.  But, there is no shame to be had in trying your best.  Also, there's a lot of pretty awesome sights to see along the way.  It can be a very rewarding journey, whether or not one makes it to wherever they hope to get. 

Best of all, though, if you are able to make it, without taking any shortcuts, the victory is all the more sweeter.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Best of all, though, if you are able to make, without taking any shortcuts, the victory is all the more sweeter.


Proof that story telling trumps proper grammar and even best selling authors need editors. 

Luv ya, Rick


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Proof that story telling trumps proper grammar and even best selling authors need editors.
> 
> Luv ya, Rick


HAH! No doubt there.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

When it comes to making money, it all comes back to writing books *people want to buy*. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Listen, I've been making six figures a year for six years at this indie publishing gig. I think it's safe to say I have a handle on how to move some books. But if I write something outside of a standard genre, forget it. None of my tricks work. In fact, I abandoned a series because of this. It's NA magical realism. Great covers, great reviews, all the boxes checked. Except NA readers aren't interested in magical realism and it's outside the norm for paranormal readers. Narrowing down an audience is HARD. My time is much better spent on my paranormal mysteries and urban fantasies.

My husband started writing last year. His first series is not squarely in a genre. It crosses maybe five of them. I warned him it would be a tough sell and it is. I can move those books when I try really hard, but man, it's an effort. And it's because they don't fit neatly into a genre that *enough people want to read*. His latest book is solidly paranormal mystery, and yes, I've already proved that I can make that series sell when I get eyes on it. But so far, it's only one book. I've been telling him repeatedly to be patient and that once he has three books out, I'm confident they will start to sell regularly.

Patience and a solid business plan are key if you're interested in making money at this. If you just want to write what you want to write and it doesn't matter, that's cool, too. But understand you might not be able to turn it into a business.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I just want to say this post makes me wish we could like individual replies! I can't 'like' this thread enough!


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Stacy Claflin said:


> I just want to say this post makes me wish we could like individual replies! I can't 'like' this thread enough!


It's all Carolyn's fault.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> A big part of this thread is to show that everyone else is not doing it.
> 
> Everyone read Gene's book the _Spaceship Next Door_! It is awesome and everything indie publishing can be.


*blushing*


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Patience and a solid business plan are key if you're interested in making money at this. If you just want to write what you want to write and it doesn't matter, that's cool, too.* But understand you might not be able to turn it into a business. *


That. It is possible, but it might take a lot longer, and it will be harder to get people to open your books / finish them / read the next one.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Mari Oliver said:


> Yes to this on my end. I admit that it's been very difficult to watch authors burst forth from nowhere who have either just started writing or been writing less time than myself, hit best-seller lists and make thousands within their first year. I'm on my second year of this and have majorly struggled but it's also been a blessing. Last year, I published very little (like 3 short stories) and focused on my craft. This year, I've been focusing still on craft but on getting more books out. I feel, a lot of times, that I'm doing something wrong because my books either don't sell or sell very little. I don't market...my funds are reserved for covers and editing. But I do have a lot of time to write, so that's my goal this year is to just put out the best products I can. It's just going to take me a long time for whatever reason, and that's a reality I've come to accept and surrender to.


It's OK to do badly. It's okay to feel jealous, frustrated, annoyed, and irritated. You can't do this seriously yet feel nothing when your effort goes nowhere. *High Five* Stay in and keep learning, or bow out when you've had enough. Make the right decisions for you.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Mari Oliver said:


> I feel, a lot of times, that I'm doing something wrong because my books either don't sell or sell very little. I don't market...my funds are reserved for covers and editing.


Selling books without marketing is nearly impossible, so don't take lack of sales as a reflection on the quality of your writing. You're doing exactly the right thing. Work on craft, get the best cover you can, and start learning to write compelling blurbs. This is a long game, and those skills will serve you for the rest of your career.

The day will come when you need to study marketing to break out, but don't let it intimidate you now. Worry about that when you feel ready. There are plenty of great resources out there to help you improve in those areas =)


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I have the same problem. I think my book is in one genre, but it doesn't seem to be listed on Amazon.
> 
> Surely, there is a paranormal/romance, murder mystery with some European history in flashbacks...isn't there?


Amazon's categories are kinda screwed up. You'll probably have to list it as a European flashback about a paranormal murder. And be careful what you call it. One author on this board recently had Zon categorize her UF as erotica because of the title. The book has no erotic content.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

We need a like button! I've been saying it for years!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I have the same problem. I think my book is in one genre, but it doesn't seem to be listed on Amazon.
> 
> Surely, there is a paranormal/romance, murder mystery with some European history in flashbacks...isn't there?


I think you just need to pick one and go full tilt with it. Without looking at anything but the covers in your signature, I'd do with paranormal mystery.


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## Longtime Lurker (Sep 14, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> A big part of this thread is to show that everyone else is not doing it.
> 
> Everyone read Gene's book the _Spaceship Next Door_! It is awesome and everything indie publishing can be.


Just bought it because of your mention of Lois McMaster Bujold above that 

This is an awesome thread. As a longtime lurker I've seen a lot of honest, kind, and generous people on Kboards (including many of you) and I always enjoyed watching their publishing journeys and cheered on their successes. It's a wonderful community. Wishing you all prosperity and contentment


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## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

Monique said:


> Because black hat methods are shortcuts to success and used by some to great effect. The long, honest haul is more daunting and seldom crowed about.


Good to see you back Monique...missed your commentary...


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Chris Fox said:


> I'm happy to see a lot of old friends coming out of hiding for this one. I haven't seen Jana or Annie in forever.


You're so sweet! I've come out of hiding. I didn't feel like I had much to contribute when I was doing poorly, but things are gradually getting better, so I'm posting again.

Good to see you too!!!!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Stacy Claflin said:


> I just want to say this post makes me wish we could like individual replies! I can't 'like' this thread enough!


You can say that again! I only recently found Kboards thanks so an Indie book I bought on how to run a K Scout campaign! So many fascinating threads!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Chris Fox said:


> Selling books without marketing is nearly impossible, so don't take lack of sales as a reflection on the quality of your writing. You're doing exactly the right thing. Work on craft, get the best cover you can, and start learning to write compelling blurbs. This is a long game, and those skills will serve you for the rest of your career.
> 
> The day will come when you need to study marketing to break out, but don't let it intimidate you now. Worry about that when you feel ready. There are plenty of great resources out there to help you improve in those areas =)


I'm learning about marketing, so a few of your titles look like what I need!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Thank you, Deanna.
> 
> I chose paranormal romance for my Kindle Scout entry, which was not chosen...but many more eyes on the book than my others have had. I didn't know there was a paranormal mystery.


I just read the blurb for book one and I'm definitely in the paranormal mystery camp. Most people looking for paranormal romance are looking for something a little different. You can put it in both of course, however, I'd market it as a mystery. I think you'll do better. On Amazon it's actually Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery> Women Sleuths and then you keyword code it to get it into these types: 
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Supernatural > Ghosts
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Supernatural > Witches & Wizards

See here: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A3NTX9NCJD3D5X


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> I just read the blurb for book one and I'm definitely in the paranormal mystery camp. Most people looking for paranormal romance are looking for something a little different. You can put it in both of course, however, I'd market it as a mystery. I think you'll do better. On Amazon it's actually Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery> Women Sleuths and then you keyword code it to get it into these types:
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Supernatural > Ghosts
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Supernatural > Witches & Wizards
> 
> See here: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/A3NTX9NCJD3D5X


Gee, in that category she'd be my competitor. Can I still be nice to her?

Hmmm.... Maybe we could cross promote. &#128523;&#128516;


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Just bought it because of your mention of Lois McMaster Bujold above that


I wouldn't say Gene's work is similar in style, but in quality, _definitely_.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> ... I had a full time career as a CFO until 4.5 years ago but I also wrote full time. So more than two full time jobs because CFOs don't work a 40-hour week. I went fifteen years with no vacation, not even a weekend to a campground. I went for a stretch of over five years with only one day off and that's because I had a 6 am surgery. I missed birthdays and holidays with family and saw my friends/family who lived within an hour of me only a handful of times every year. When I quit my day job, I didn't decrease my hours. I simply transferred them to indie and went hard at it 80-100 hours a week for years. THIS year is the first time I have taken a step back and decided I need to gain balance because I've worked myself far past the extent of my health.


My husband, who has AD/HD, worked as behavior analyst helping special children. He told parents of children with hyperactivity that their children were lucky because they would be able to put in the effort that it takes to be a great success or to get out of a very difficult situation (like poverty). Your description of your work habits is surely a reminder hard, sustained effort is often needed. Thank you!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Lynn is a pseud--uh said:


> I will, but it's not going to help anyone because I do everything "wrong."
> 
> I write what I want, when I want. I don't release regularly. I release everything at full price. $6.99 for novels, a bit less for shorter stuff. I haven't written anything in over two months because I'm on a break and the only part of this business I treat as a business is money. A former career as an accountant won't let me treat it any other way. I make my own covers, edit my own books, don't have beta or first readers, and I don't worry when one month is three digit earnings because I know sales fall off when I don't release and the money is fantastic when I do. I save aggressively for those low months that are inevitable with the way I do things. Risk and variability don't bother me because they're so much preferable to any traditional day job I've ever had. My only promotions are my email list, which I only email when I have a new release, and my website, which I only update when I have something to say about one of my books.
> 
> ...


Ha! Wonderful! What's that genre? I ask not just out of marketing curiosity but also as a reader who likes to try new genres.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Brkingsolver,
> 
> If only! LOL
> 
> Deanna, I did put in the keywords...thank you again.


You're welcome.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

brkingsolver said:


> she did it without sacrificing any cats or the neighbors' children.


Oops...I should have started reading the Kboards sooner.

Seriously though, thank you so much. I had lost heart, and now I have hope again.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Deanna Chase said:


> Cynthia, you should have a dedicated email/newsletter list just for your books. Look at something like Mailerlite or MailChimp. ONce you signup, you put a link to it on your website and in the backmatter of your books so readers can sign up for more. You don't buy a list, you cultivate your own readers.


Thank you for the advice. I'm acting on it.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Brkingsolver,
> 
> If only! LOL
> 
> Deanna, I did put in the keywords...thank you again.


Pm me. Want to look at your book to see if we fit, but I have a NL going out soon.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CynthiaClay said:


> Oops...I should have started reading the Kboards sooner.
> 
> Seriously though, thank you so much. I had lost heart, and now I have hope again.





CynthiaClay said:


> Oops...I should have started reading the Kboards sooner.
> 
> Seriously though, thank you so much. I had lost heart, and now I have hope again.


One word: covers

For everyone else: 
HOLY CRAP!!! Check out the third book in her sig


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## 74455 (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm hardly burning up the charts, and I'm not paying our mortgage with my writing income. On the other hand, I release maybe once a year and I write what I feel like writing. I'm finding writers I want to work with and readers who appreciate my particular kind of weird. My writing income has had a fairly steady upward trend year over year, and I feel like I'm getting a handle on how to market in a way that feels comfortable for me. I LIKE publishing, and I've turned into a cover snob.

Maybe in another five years someone will be awed by my overnight success.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

Chris Fox said:


> Selling books without marketing is nearly impossible, so don't take lack of sales as a reflection on the quality of your writing. You're doing exactly the right thing. Work on craft, get the best cover you can, and start learning to write compelling blurbs. This is a long game, and those skills will serve you for the rest of your career.
> 
> The day will come when you need to study marketing to break out, but don't let it intimidate you now. Worry about that when you feel ready. There are plenty of great resources out there to help you improve in those areas =)


Thank you! Your videos have been helpful, actually.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I'm finding writers I want to work with and readers who appreciate my particular kind of weird.


I have read all the books in your Things Unseen trilogy (and is there a fourth?) I'm so glad I found you and we've worked together.


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## 74455 (Jan 9, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I have read all the books in your Things Unseen trilogy (and is there a fourth?) I'm so glad I found you and we've worked together.


Yes! There will be. It's next up in the queue. The Lord of Dreams was meant to be the "simple" story to allow my brain to recover from The Beginning of Wisdom, and it became much more complicated than I had anticipated. I love it, but it was hardly "simple". Also I've had some health issues that were distracting. I'm getting better! I don't want to go on the cart!

Also, thank you so much! I have very much enjoyed working with you.


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## Teresa Rook (Nov 20, 2016)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Of course. https://www.amazon.com/Douglas-Cuddle-Toys-1505-Buffy/dp/B000S92MM2/


I already own this little guy! His name is Bozo and I have loved him for years. But if Bozo's blood will make me a bestseller, then bleed he shall...

Or I could rent him out to struggling authors. The incredibly low price of $5000 gets you an insta-success Bozo snuggle guaranteed to shoot you to stardom. Any takers?


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

I really needed to read this thread today. I was feeling pretty sorry for myself because my new release seems to have tanked already, but I'm feeling better after all these reminders of just how wonderful my fellow authors can be to each other. I have been so blessed to have all the support and encouragement from so many of you, and even the occasional kick in the butt from some of you when I really needed it. 

Okay, so my new book hasn't done as well as I'd hoped. It's doing better than the one before it, which did better than the one before that, and so on. It's a marathon, not a sprint, right? And I can keep going because I've got plenty of good company and great coaches.

Thanks, guys.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Teresa Rook said:


> I already own this little guy! His name is Bozo and I have loved him for years. But if Bozo's blood will make me a bestseller, then bleed he shall...
> 
> Or I could rent him out to struggling authors. The incredibly low price of $5000 gets you an insta-success Bozo snuggle guaranteed to shoot you to stardom. Any takers?


Poor Bozo! Sacrificed at the alter of greed! Oh, woe is me. Darkness falls upon the land and the skies are dark with unshed tears.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

LadyG said:


> I really needed to read this thread today. I was feeling pretty sorry for myself because my new release seems to have tanked already, but I'm feeling better after all these reminders of just how wonderful my fellow authors can be to each other. I have been so blessed to have all the support and encouragement from so many of you, and even the occasional kick in the butt from some of you when I really needed it.
> 
> Okay, so my new book hasn't done as well as I'd hoped. It's doing better than the one before it, which did better than the one before that, and so on. It's a marathon, not a sprint, right? And I can keep going because I've got plenty of good company and great coaches.
> 
> Thanks, guys.


If each new release is doing better than the one before, then you are in excellent shape.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> If each new release is doing better than the one before, then you are in excellent shape.


That may be the first time anyone has ever used the phrase "you are in excellent shape" when referring to me.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> If each new release is doing better than the one before, then you are in excellent shape.


Totally this. Take the wins where you can.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

LadyG said:


> That may be the first time anyone has ever used the phrase "you are in excellent shape" when referring to me.


Ha! I understand completely.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

I've enjoyed a fair amount of success. Thirteen novels and one non-fiction currently, and 2017 is already my third six digit year. No "letters" here and everything done with honor, care and compassion for others, and legit marketing methods. What is getting "letters" mean anyway? It just sounds sophomoric. This isn't JV football or cheer leading, though often the resemblance is striking. Storytelling is one of the oldest and most noble professions. Being able to say that you that you are a NYT Bestseller used to carry a lot more meaning. Anyway, I've never even made an attempt at it, because it really isn't all that big a deal. I'm in Select, so for the foreseeable future, I won't be a NYT Bestseller. But, and this is the kicker, I earn far more than most of them.

Yes, you can become a successful author, without resorting to questionable methods. But, it takes a lot of work. Hard work. Long hours, gallons of coffee and bloodshot eyes. Do it the right way and the success can be lasting and much more satisfying. 

ETA: Oh yeah, my first book sold 23 copies in the time it took me to write the second one.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I've enjoyed a fair amount of success. Thirteen novels and one non-fiction currently, and 2017 is already my third six digit year. No "letters" here and everything done with honor, care, and compassion for others, and legit marketing methods. What is getting "letters" anyway? This isn't JV football or cheer leading, though often the resemblance is striking. Storytelling is one of the oldest and most noble professions. Being able to say that you that you are a NYT Bestseller used to carry a lot more meaning. Anyway, I've never even made an attempt at it, because it really isn't all that big a deal. I'm in Select, so for the foreseeable future, I won't be a NYT Bestseller. But, and this is the kicker, I earn far more than most of them.
> 
> Yes, you can become a successful author, without resorting to questionable methods. But, it takes a lot of work. Hard work. Long hours, gallons of coffee and bloodshot eyes. Do it the right way and the success can be lasting and much more satisfying.


THIS.

Wayne, authors like you are the best part of KBoards. Please, don't ever stop sharing your words of wisdom with us.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Yes, you can become a successful author, without resorting to questionable methods. But, it takes a lot of work. Hard work. Long hours, gallons of coffee and bloodshot eyes. Do it the right way and the success can be lasting and much more satisfying.


Well, I don't drink coffee! It does take hard work, but it's work you were going to do anyway, because writing is your obsessive compulsive play behavior that you just can't stop. I actually try to make sleep a priority. In the early days it was really hard, because getting 15 minutes of free time with kids around can be a PITA.

I want to say, that "black-hat" methods don't guarantee success either. It can make you money for a while, but that sort of thing tends to catch up to you.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> Something you have to remember, just because they haven't been publishing for more than a year, doesn't mean they haven't been writing.


This. When you start digging around into people's backgrounds, you find very few of those wildly successful debut authors are brand new to writing. Here's the truth about several I know:

Spent years honing their craft writing and workshopping before that big release
Worked as ghostwriter
Worked as journalist
Has multiple less successful releases under a previous pen-name
Worked in the editorial department of a Big 5 publisher.
Published in non-fiction


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I want to say, that "black-hat" methods don't guarantee success either. It can make you money for a while, but that sort of thing tends to catch up to you.


Exactly! And the higher one gets by resorting to questionable methods, the greater the fall. Karma sometimes likes to play games.

Ever wonder why tire manufacturers make their tires round? Because it works. For thousands of years, nobody has come up with a better wheel than the round one. Shortcuts in this industry rarely work in the long run.


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## Valerie A. (Dec 31, 2016)

Teresa Rook said:


> I already own this little guy! His name is Bozo and I have loved him for years. But if Bozo's blood will make me a bestseller, then bleed he shall...
> Or I could rent him out to struggling authors. The incredibly low price of $5000 gets you an insta-success Bozo snuggle guaranteed to shoot you to stardom. Any takers?


Teresa,

For a moment I though you were referring to the bun-bun on your avatar. I have one of those in the flesh, and her nutritional, ahem, _needs_ are a constant reminder to keep writing.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

IreneP said:


> This. When you start digging around into people's backgrounds, you find very few of those wildly successful debut authors are brand new to writing. Here's the truth about several I know:
> 
> Spent years honing their craft writing and workshopping before that big release
> Worked as ghostwriter
> ...


Here's what I notice about the WTM folks who got traction.

1. Tried things.
2. Learned.
3. Tried again.
4. Learned.
5. Repeat until step 6 achieved.
6. Finally got everything to come together.
7. Instant success. 

All that messing around and doing things wrong? Utterly vital to getting things right.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

PhoenixS said:


> Unless you're peddling something extremely topical, if the first wave of opportunity passes you by, you have a second chance. And a third. And a fourth. No one's going to pulp your inventory or return covers for cash like in trad pub, or not order a second print run. The selling only stops when you stop promoting.


I published my first book five years ago, and finished the 5-book series in late 2014. It never did particularly well, but I got a lot of good reviews and very enthusiastic followers that kept me writing. The first book is now on its second cover, and I rebranded the series a year and a half ago.

When I hit with my new series, I was shocked at what happened with the backlist. Those five books and their omnibus have earned more in four months than in any previous year. I'm in the process of updating the covers on the whole series for re-release and promos this summer. Old ebooks don't die, they just fade away until someone gives them some love and introduces them to a new audience.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> And the higher one gets by resorting to questionable methods, the greater the fall. Karma sometimes likes to play games.


I'd take it a little step further. If you know someone who feels no qualms skirting the contractual terms of Amazon, Nook, iBooks, etc., you know that person isn't going to have qualms about skirting the rules of decency or contractual terms they've signed with you. Their obligations to you will only be met as long as you're useful.

We all have times in our lives when we're not useful. I want to be associated with people who I know will have my back.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> I'd take it a little step further. If you know someone who feels no qualms skirting the contractual terms of Amazon, Nook, iBooks, etc., you know that person isn't going to have qualms about skirting the rules of decency or contractual terms they've signed with you. Their obligations to you will only be met as long as you're useful.
> 
> We all have times in our lives when we're not useful. I want to be associated with people who I know will have my back.


Where's the LIKE button?


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## LittleFox (Jan 3, 2015)

I'm stopping by to add my thanks and the need for a like button on this forum. 

Thanks to the very generous authors on here, those like Carolyn, Rosalind, and the many others, I've earnt enough from my books to pay all bills bar the medical ones for two months now. Yes, we live cheap, but I spent an hour crying tears of joy over how well received my latest release is. I wouldn't have any of that without the people on here, the good people. 

Thanks for your generosity and reminding us that all isn't lost when it gets a bit miserable around here.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Thanks to the very generous authors on here, those like Carolyn, Rosalind, and the many others, I've earnt enough from my books to pay all bills bar the medical ones for two months now. Yes, we live cheap, but I spent an hour crying tears of joy over how well received my latest release is. I wouldn't have any of that without the people on here, the good people.
> 
> Thanks for your generosity and reminding us that all isn't lost when it gets a bit miserable around here.


Recent events have been draining. People who don't comment here are watching, and they've PMd me to tell me how little work they're getting done. They're horrified by what has been going on. Others, of course, are relieved, as they've seen red flags for ages but were afraid to say anything.

I just wanted to start this post to counter some of the despair, and to remind people that most people are good, and being good can bring you good things.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I just want to say that nobody is perfect. I certainly am not. I realized to my horror during the recent kerfuffle that I had overlooked something really elementary during the one KU boxed set I organized. (During which I learned that I am a crappy boxed set organizer). I am waiting on internet in my new house (today, pretty please, finally) to go back and make that right. 

I screw up a lot. We all do. We can all be snarky and unkind. (Well, almost all. I've met some people who I swear truly are saints. I have a sister like that in fact.) But at least we can be honest with ourselves. That's the main bar I hold myself to. When I screw up, I take responsibility and make it right. This is not a humble brag, at least I hope not. I think most people are in this same group. 

I just wanted to say that as my name has been mentioned a few times. I know many, many great-selling authors at this point, and the vast majority have been honest and ethical in all my dealings with them and by reputation. And that matters. This is a largely unregulated business with plenty of opportunities for shady dealings and skirting the edge of the rules. By the same token, your reputation MATTERS. That's what you've got in this community beyond the sales and readers. Yes, those matter too, but they can go up and down. Your reputation is there at the end of the day. 

Nobody is perfect, though. All we can do is our best.


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## Simply_Me (Mar 31, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> Recent events have been draining. People who don't comment here are watching, and they've PMd me to tell me how little work they're getting done. They're horrified by what has been going on. Others, of course, are relieved, as they've seen red flags for ages but were afraid to say anything.
> 
> I just wanted to start this post to counter some of the despair, and to remind people that most people are good, and being good can bring you good things.


I'm just catching up with all the posting, but I want to pause to thank you for starting this thread.

After reading all the great advice and encouragement, I'm positive that we will be a better and stronger community once all this is said and done.

Thanks, everyone!


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## Cal Lumney (Dec 8, 2015)

I call shenanigans. Gockel's _already_ kind and honest, so of course she's going to promote that path. She's in the pocket of Big Nice.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I just want to say that nobody is perfect. I certainly am not. I realized to my horror during the recent kerfuffle that I had overlooked something really elementary during the one KU boxed set I organized. (During which I learned that I am a crappy boxed set organizer). I am waiting on internet in my new house (today, pretty please, finally) to go back and make that right.


Oh, gosh yes, me too! I organized a lovely KU box set with Lindsay Buroker, Chris Fox, Michael Forbes, and others and didn't say anything when we were starting out about how long I'd pay for page reads! It didn't occur to me that there would be page reads AFTER the set came down, so never came to a decision about it. I am currently making quarterly payments to them, but I am thinking I need to come to a consensual agreement about when enough is enough. I'm pretty sure ten years from now I'll get a day when we earn $15 ... but I really don't want to be making $1.50 PayPal payments to 9 authors.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

I'd just like to chime in as a random chump and say you're all great and I appreciate all of you.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I call shenanigans. Gockel's already kind and honest, so of course she's going to promote that path. She's in the pocket of Big Nice.


Ha, ha ...

I guess the thing is, I don't think I am a nice person by default. I'm a deep NT on the Meyers Briggs, and I'm not always the most empathetic person in the world. I come to "niceness" because it _works._ Being fair, honest, and reasonable attracts like people to you. Not just in the author community, but in the fan community as well, and life in general. I have the most lovely fans in the world. They are so super smart, interesting, forgiving, and generous and I'm always learning new things from them and laughing, too, because they are darn funny.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Here's what I notice about the WTM folks who got traction.
> 
> 1. Tried things.
> 2. Learned.
> ...


I disagree, just a bit. My dad told me the difference between smart and wise, many years ago. He wasn't a learned man, only had a 9th grade education, but he was smart and oh so wise. He told me that a smart man learns something every time he screws up. But, a wise man will learn something by watching the smart man screw up. He also told me if I wanted to succeed at something, look at what successful people in that business are doing and do that. In other words, learn from other people's mistakes and successes.

That's what makes this indie community so cool. There's a boatload of best business practices and best writing habits within these pages, free for anyone to read and use if they feel it's going to fit their business model. The mistakes are here, too. You can be wise and learn from other people's mistakes (though I firmly believe that mistakes that cause pain of some kind provide the best lessons), and also learn what's worked for them.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Here's what I notice about the WTM folks who got traction.
> 
> 1. Tried things.
> 2. Learned.
> ...


I'm going to have to agree with Wayne here and say, not necessarily. Sometimes it really does work pretty well from the start. I've seen that happen for a number of authors with their first books. That doesn't mean they do everything right the first time, or that there isn't plenty to learn. But you don't have to fail first.

I do think it's harder than it was a few years ago, but I'm still seeing authors writing a book "just to see," publishing it, and doing very well indeed. It is possible. And it's also possible to make mistakes, learn, and then do well. Many paths.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

This is a great thread. It uplifts better than a Wonder Bra. Thanks, Carolyn, for starting it. This business can definitely get you down, but more than that it can confuse the he-- out of you. I totally agree on being as kind as one can be, as honorable as one can be, and to try not to step in poop on the way to the top, the side, or wherever you end up after years of writing. We all have to live with ourselves, so we might as well trust that self to do the right thing.

But to that someone up thread who suggested sacrifices of neighbor's children, cats (and the occasional goat) I'd strongly advise against it. I've already had to move three times!


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Loving all the positivity in this thread!

I can attest to the fact that you can get there without compromising what you believe is right. I published my first book in Feburary 2013. I didn't know much about publishing at the time, and didn't discover kboards until much later. It took 3 full years before I broke into 4 figures in a month! But it's kept growing since then.

For anyone out there who feels that because they aren't a success now, they never will be, that they've missed the boat, take heart. It doesn't mean you will never get there. There are many different paths to success, and they don't all look the same.


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## EllieKeaton (Apr 12, 2014)

I love this thread, thanks Carolyn for starting it.  I have been writing for years but it  in only in the last year I started to make a good income - I replaced my day job earnings and when I could work I was earning high five figures.

I owe a lot of this to this board. I dont post a lot but I do read a lot. I stalk posts by Monique, Sela, Wayne, Rosalind, Anne, Amanda and a gazillion other people.  I owe my success to people who helped me out - three online friends who made me realize that Chris Fox wasnt talking out his butt about writing to a market who wants to buy books  

I have never, to my knowledge, done anything unethical but yet I can pay my bills.  You can too.  That's what is great about being Indie, we get to decide what we write, how we market etc etc.

Be open, be honest, be kind.  You may never get the letters or achieve success like some of the people in the Indie community but that doesnt matter if you still have your reputation.  I dont have any books in the top 100 - I might have one in the top 1000 on release day if I am lucky.  I have no letters but I do great.  It took five years to get here.  I am learning all the time.  

People do not NEED to earn $50k a month or a day but $50k a year would change many people's lives.  If I can do that and more with a few books so can anyone else.  Put the effort in, learn from the pros and ask questions when you get stuck.  The fab guys on here - whether they have one post or 1000000 posts will help you out.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I can't even begin to tell you all how grateful I am for this post and the contributions to it. I've been so discouraged for the last year. That and health/family crises caused me to stop writing. Sales have dwindled to practically nothing. And then the Promotergate thing happened this last week and it just sucked so big to see the underside of all this. I needed seven pages of NICENESS. It's been a tonic. Bless you all.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

There are so many posts in this thread I want to like.

Can we get a like button?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> People do not NEED to earn $50k a month or a day but $50k a year would change many people's lives. If I can do that and more with a few books so can anyone else. Put the effort in, learn from the pros and ask questions when you get stuck. The fab guys on here - whether they have one post or 1000000 posts will help you out.


Yeah, this.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

kenbritz said:


> I'm a new author, but I wasn't born yesterday and this isn't new. Folks here are helpful, kind, and patient (mostly). Dale Carnegie observations should always be followed, regardless of what industry you're in.
> 
> Outside of a few FB groups and KBoards, I have _no_ author friends, save the one I assisted getting their children's book to print.
> 
> ...


I don't require author "friends" either, and people who proclaim that they're "nice" and "kind" online may not be if you were to meet them in person. It's easy to create an image online.

That said, the information in this and various author groups is invaluable for our writing careers. Furthermore, working in collaboration with other authors is also important for our writing careers. I'm constantly working with other authors in various ways, such as with newsletter swaps.

That's what's important to me.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I don't require author "friends" either, and people who proclaim that they're "nice" and "kind" online may not be if you were to meet them in person. It's easy to create an image online.


Oh, in real life I sacrifice puppies.

Not really, but I'm an introvert and socially awkward with a "resting b!T¢h face." I aim to be both, though. As I said upthread, it is not because I'm naturally empathetic, but because I do think it is the best way to live your life in general.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> Oh, in real life I sacrifice puppies.


In a pinch, there are always kittens.


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## Valerie A. (Dec 31, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> Well, I don't drink coffee!


What And I was beginning to really like you...


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Pizzazz said:


> I don't require author "friends" either, and people who proclaim that they're "nice" and "kind" online may not be if you were to meet them in person. It's easy to create an image online.
> 
> That said, the information in this and various author groups is invaluable for our writing careers. Furthermore, working in collaboration with other authors is also important for our writing careers. I'm constantly working with other authors in various ways, such as with newsletter swaps.
> 
> That's what's important to me.


I'm not sure that people who are actually nice or kind ever proclaim that they are. In my experience, people who talk a lot about how nice they are usually aren't. And I disagree that it's easy to be consistently decent online or anywhere else if you aren't. Who you are generally comes out, online or anywhere. That doesn't mean people are perfect. You should have seen me losing it and weeping in the new house the other day because my office still wasn't set up. But then I never claimed to be perfect.

Your post though does remind me of the different paths. I don't cross promo or work with other authors and hardly ever have. That actually isn't necessary for success, because I'm not the only one I know like this.I pretty much follow my own path. But I do have friends in the industry (not personal friends, as I don't do conferences, but online friends). I run things by them and discuss things and get and give advice, as one does with friends. Some of them are "nice"'and others are blunt. What matters to me is that they are decent and have the same ethics I do. Professional and personal, because in my experience you can't really separate them. That means I can trust that their viewpoints come from a decent place.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Your post though does remind me of the different paths. I don't cross promo or work with other authors and hardly ever have. That actually isn't necessary for success, because I'm not the only one I know like this.I pretty much follow my own path. But I do have friends in the industry (not personal friends, as I don't do conferences, but online friends). I run things by them and discuss things and get and give advice, as one does with friends. Some of them are "nice"'and others are blunt. What matters to me is that they are decent and have the same ethics I do. Professional and personal, because in my experience you can't really separate them. That means I can trust that their viewpoints come from a decent place.


I do a few conventions here and there and have met some seriously awesome authors in real-life, but aside from that I'm pretty much in the same boat. Small groups of people whose opinions I feel I can trust. I appreciate the niceness because we all need a shoulder to lean on now and then, but I appreciate the bluntness even more. It's nice to have someone else's back and likewise to know they have yours if need be.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I'm not sure that people who are actually nice or kind ever proclaim that they are.


I think I proclaimed myself to be at the beginning of the thread ... or implied it. I actually try to be. I fail massively, a lot.

Sometimes blunt is "nice." It's kinder to shoot a horse with a broken leg. If you see a friend messing up, it's better to tell them. That said, if they didn't really ask for your opinions on their prose, and just want to whine ... well, it wouldn't be nice to tell them your thoughts on an open forum, and unless they ask you directly, I don't think it's your business to step in.

ETA: I've seen much more genuinely nicer people than me get scammed / hurt / harassed in this industry, and part of my post was just to tell them they aren't failures for being intimidated, and they don't have to be that way to be a success.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> I think I proclaimed myself to be at the beginning of the thread ... or implied it. I actually try to be. I fail massively, a lot.
> 
> Sometimes blunt is "nice." It's kinder to shoot a horse with a broken leg. If you see a friend messing up, it's better to tell them. That said, if they didn't really ask for your opinions on their prose, and just want to whine ... well, it wouldn't be nice to tell them your thoughts on an open forum, and unless they ask you directly, I don't think it's your business to step in.
> 
> ETA: I've seen much more genuinely nicer people than me get scammed / hurt / harassed in this industry, and part of my post was just to tell them they aren't failures for being intimidated, and they don't have to be that way to be a success.


I don't think you proclaimed anything. I wasn't thinking of you. Definitely not. And I agree. If you see a dispute and one person is slinking away ashamed and hiding her head--that probably means she's the nicer one. Good people have consciences. Sometimes over sensitive ones.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm not sure that people who are actually nice or kind ever proclaim that they are.


It's always a bit of a tell when someone _tells you_ their opinion of themselves.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Good people have consciences. Sometimes over sensitive ones.


So much this. And I really wanted to reach those people. They don't have to go against their innate natures to succeed.

There is a great line in _The Once and Future King_ where T.H. White says something about some people being nice because they innately are, and some people are more polite than nice. They follow manners because those are the rules, and they recognize how the rules benefit everyone, but they aren't naturally empathetic. I am definitely more like that.

ETA: and nice is proven by actions not words.


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