# My Character Talks... Well... Ghetto... HELP me with dialogue, please?



## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Okay, I couldn't figure out a way to title my problem, but here goes it:

One of my characters, whose chapters are always written in 3rd-person, talks ghetto. Slim Shady, if you will. I don't need help with how to _sound_ ghetto, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right before I get any further down the rabbit hole. I use the ' to cut off letters he does not pronounce.

He says things like such:

"You accusin' me of somethin'?"

"Yo, ya betta start answerin' me now! Quit askin' me [crap], aight?" Tad dragged the chair back to the table and sat down.

"I gotsta bounce. An' I really ain't feelin' this room. Ya crazy ass."

These are in no particular order, just random things that the character has said throughout the story. I'm trying to make sure that I'm using the ' correctly. Are the ' TOO distracting? Do some people not use them them? Any examples from fiction that I could reference on this? I'm trying to look, but can't really think of any that have characters like this. Please, help!

Thanks!


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## Winterfate (Feb 11, 2014)

Hello there! Well, I put my Google-fu into action and found this one on Amazon where a character says "anythin' ".

http://www.amazon.com/Bastion-Collegium-Chronicles-Valdemar-Novel/dp/0756409446#reader_0756409446

In my personal opinion, I don't think the punctuation is distracting.


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## RML (Feb 24, 2014)

I would strongly, strongly advise against phonetically writing out accents that way. It's hugely distracting, not to mention potentially offensive.


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## mrain4th (May 19, 2013)

"I would strongly, strongly advise against phonetically writing out accents that way. It's hugely distracting, not to mention potentially offensive"
I completely disagree with this. If, when your character speaks, he says,'nuttin', it would look/sound absolutely wrong to have him saying, 'nothing'.  I cannot imagine a fictional character's speech being offensive to anyone when people talk like that all the time.


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## RML (Feb 24, 2014)

It's not offensive because no one talks that way. It's offensive because when you only phonetically write out certain specific accents it others people who speak that way. It presents whatever accent you write out normally as... well... normal or default. Thus rendering everything else alien.


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## jcalloway (Jan 10, 2014)

Rawles Marie Lumumba said:


> I would strongly, strongly advise against phonetically writing out accents that way. It's hugely distracting, not to mention potentially offensive.


Seconded. With special emphasis on the offensive aspect. You don't want to isolate or insult readers who might be from a similar background, and it's always best to avoid perpetuating stereotypes.

Instead of cluttering up dialogue with phonetic spellings and loads of apostrophes, why not work it into your introductory prose on the character instead?


__
https://55804511544%2Fwriting-tips-117-writing-dialogue-in-accents-and
 has a nice example of this.


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## No One Here (Jan 17, 2014)

If I were writing it I'd throw in a few words here and there to remind the reader that the character has a different way of talking, but you don't want to get too intense with it.  If you overdo it, the reader will tire of trying to decipher what's being said and most likely will put it down and walk away.  I talk Southern, but when I write it I try to stay away from Al Capp's version of it; even before I was old enough to get offended by it, I had a hard time reading it.


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## micki (Oct 8, 2010)

I wrote a few paragraphs in a novel where the character pronounced his 'r's' as 'l's' and vice versa. A few readers found if offensive so I wrote Mr. such and such spoke in his xxxxxxx accent and changed it to the correct spelling.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Just so I'm clear: I, in no-way-shape-or-form, am identifying the character's race/color from the way he talks. Ghetto is simply a term. It doesn't mean or label to a specific race. How can a character, truly speaking in their voice, be offensive? I'm not labeling the character as stupid at all. In fact, he's brilliant, but not in a school kind of way.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Just so I'm clear: I, in no-way-shape-or-form, am identify the character's race/color from the way he talks. Ghetto is simply a term. It doesn't mean or label to a specific race. How can a character, truly speaking in their voice, be offensive? I'm not labeling the character as stupid at all. In fact, he's brilliant, but not in a school kind of way.


The point is, the excessive use of apostrophes and other phonetic indicators marks the character as alien if all the other characters are notated "normally." Plus, it's a lot of work to read.


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## No One Here (Jan 17, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Just so I'm clear: I, in no-way-shape-or-form, am identify the character's race/color from the way he talks. Ghetto is simply a term. It doesn't mean or label to a specific race. How can a character, truly speaking in their voice, be offensive? I'm not labeling the character as stupid at all. In fact, he's brilliant, but not in a school kind of way.


Whether you intend it or not, your reader will add his own slant to what he reads. In these times, when everyone gets offended at everything, and no matter how wrong it might be, perception becomes reality and you end up trying to defend yourself against the reader's perception of what you did instead of what you actually did. Just be careful is all I'm saying.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> The point is, the excessive use of apostrophes and other phonetic indicators marks the character as alien if all the other characters are notated "normally." Plus, it's a lot of work to read.


Roger that. The character is clearly introduced, well before he ever speaks, and I tested it out with a few people. Of course, it's "different" at first, but it becomes so clear when he's talking that I really don't have to use dialogue tags.

I'm more concerned with whether-or-not the ' are "technically" correct or incorrect. And point noted. I will try to limit it as much as I can allow, for the sake of flow. Also, he's a MC, so he will show up a lot, and I think people will like him, and if they have to, learn to like how he talks. HAHA

Forest Gump was written completely in his "idiot" voice, and people loved it. But, it was first person, and the writer didn't use the 's. Since my example is in third person I was wondering if I should keep the 's or just omit them entirely? That was the main goal of this post. Hopefully, I can get some great resources and book references out of this to study, study, study!


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

kendoggett said:


> Whether you intend it or not, your reader will add his own slant to what he reads. In these times, when everyone gets offended at everything, and no matter how wrong it might be, perception becomes reality and you end up trying to defend yourself against the reader's perception of what you did instead of what you actually did. Just be careful is all I'm saying.


I appreciate your input. I'm not looking to offend anyone, nor do I care if I do, as I know (in my heart) I'm not doing anything wrong. At the same time, this is a business and I don't want to run off people. I'm more-so trying to confirm if the 's are technically correct, or if I can omit them? Or should?

His voice is like anything else in life that's "different." It catches your eye--or ear in this case. But, if I'm consistent, can the illusion ring true? I don't just want to be consistent, I want to be technically accurate.

I also like the point about not having him be the only ALIEN. Thankfully, I have other characters who speak in their "natural" voice, too.

I appreciate the reply!


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

It sounds to me that your real question is, when writing a character who speaks colloquially, should you add an apostrophe at the end of words where the letter isn't pronounced in actual speech. 

If this is what you're concerned with then I suggest reading dialogue written in a similar fashion. Pay attention to how other writers have dealt with this and see which model makes more sense to you.

As long as your writing is consistent, the reader will adapt.


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## Frank Zubek (Apr 27, 2010)

kendoggett said:


> If I were writing it I'd throw in a few words here and there to remind the reader that the character has a different way of talking, but you don't want to get too intense with it. If you overdo it, the reader will tire of trying to decipher what's being said and most likely will put it down and walk away. I talk Southern, but when I write it I try to stay away from Al Capp's version of it; even before I was old enough to get offended by it, I had a hard time reading it.


This.

But it shouldn't be too heavy
I would suggest Walter Mosley's work specifically his book Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned. The main character in that is a black man- street smart. If I remember correctly the dialogue is "of the streets " to an extent. Check amazon's handy feature Look Inside I just checked the book opens right off with similar dialogue.
To be sure you don't offend maybe have a different character be irish or something and have a few native quirks in his speech pattern so you can balance the characters-- so if anyone complains you can point that out. Though yeah that would be going out of your way just to be true to a singular character This is tough to balance but I wish you luck
Come back and let us know when its ready to go live I'd be interested in getting it ( the thing you said about him being very smart yet the talk is common to his neighborhood attracts my attention as it sounds different from what else I have read--- good luck!)


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## DavidMacinnisGill (Mar 4, 2011)

It's much more effective to indicate dialect by cadence and word choice than to use punctuation to approximate dialect. Besides, no one pronounces the G at the end of  -ing words. The sound difference is in the I preceding it. It's either nasal or flattened, and you can't indicate that phonetically by dropping a G.


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## Jennifer R P (Oct 19, 2012)

If I open a book and anyone's accent is written out phonetically, then...that book is being closed and put back on the store shelf (or digital equivalent).

I am *far* from alone in this.

Don't phonetically spell out the accent. You'll lose readers.

Instead, mention his style of speech and be sure to use appropriate dialect WORDS to indicate he's speaking "street." Same with any other character that speaks in a dialect or broad accent.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

DavidMacinnisGill said:


> It's much more effective to indicate dialect by cadence and word choice than to use punctuation to approximate dialect. Besides, no one pronounces the G at the end of -ing words. The sound difference is in the I preceding it. It's either nasal or flattened, and you can't indicate that phonetically by dropping a G.


This.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

DavidMacinnisGill said:


> Besides, no one pronounces the G at the end of -ing words.


I have to disagree. Sure sometimes I say somethin' versus something, things like that. But it's not one way or the other. People say 'doing' all the way out... I think it all depends on the speed of how the word is delivered. I would probably say, "what are you doin'?" if I were speaking fast. But, If I were upset about something, it could come out as, "What are you _doing_?" And I'd hear the 'ing sound...


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Just so I'm clear: I, in no-way-shape-or-form, am identifying the character's race/color from the way he talks. Ghetto is simply a term.


Ghetto is not simply a term any more than N***** is simply a term. It has a huge, sociological amount of baggage attached to it in modern culture and is fundamentally associated with urban African American life. If you aren't making that connection, you are being disingenuous with the character. If you are going to write about urban characters, you have to have the backbone to take ownership of that, acknowledge you are doing it, and then try to be authentic. And you can't be authentic by trying to hide behind "ghetto is simply a term."

That said, dialogue is never about being "technically correct." Technically correct dialogue in the real world is BORING. Think about how people actually talk to each other. Go somewhere like a mall and just sit in the food court and spend an hour listening to how people communicate. The average conversation is BORING and filled with empty words and filler sounds. The purpose of dialogue in a fictional work is not to be "technically correct." It is to move the plot forward and help define the characters.

Good dialogue is less about accents and more about understanding how a character constructs his sentences and chooses his words. And again, this is where spending lots of time listening to HOW people talk becomes useful. It is the difference between writing "I didn't do anything wrong!" versus "I do nothing wrong!" Same statement, but the sentence construction and word choice indicate two very difference speakers.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

OMG. This is where I work EVERY DAY stuff!!! ok Ghetto is basically a lot of conjoined words that are horribly misspelled or made up or used incorrectly. Also double negatives as well.  For example you have this:
"I gotsta bounce. An' I really ain't feelin' this room. Ya crazy ass."

Where I work which is a very ghetto heavy neighborhood it would be more like this:
"Yo dawg, Iz gotzta split cause I jizt aint feelin diz shiz. Crazy dumb azz *****"

if you arent around it a lot it can be hard but once you get it you will wish you could forget it! LOL Think of it as speaking a foreign language. Basically bad grammar rules Ghetto speak. insults are regular a regular part of speaking as well.. Think someone with a slur that is toned if that helps. When it gets REALLY interesting is when you have two ghetto people yelling at each other. Also ghetto isnt limited to one race of people. I have ghetto customers of EVERY race and mixed races that come in.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Rae Scott said:


> OMG. This is where I work EVERY DAY stuff!!! ok Ghetto is basically a lot of conjoined words that are horribly misspelled or made up or used incorrectly. Also double negatives as well. For example you have this:
> "I gotsta bounce. An' I really ain't feelin' this room. Ya crazy ass."
> 
> Where I work which is a very ghetto heavy neighborhood it would be more like this:
> ...


Good, but this is the way I'd write it. (I don't think anyone says "split" anymore, but I could be wrong.)

"Dawg, I ain't feelin' dis shiz. I'm out. Crazy dumb azz *****."


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

I think that, potential offensiveness aside, the point that is being made by most people commenting here is that the use of apostrophes is not necessary or even advisable to any large degree. Word choice, spelling, and phrasing can do most of the heavy lifting on the accent, which will work much better if you suggest it than if you bludgeon the reader with it. That's what I meant when I said your samples are a lot of work to read. If you had pulled back a little on overtly indicating the accent, my inner ear would have provided it and your character's dialogue would have flowed much more easily.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Ghetto is not simply a term any more than N***** is simply a term. It has a huge, sociological amount of baggage attached to it in modern culture and is fundamentally associated with urban African American life. If you aren't making that connection, you are being disingenuous with the character. If you are going to write about urban characters, you have to have the backbone to take ownership of that, acknowledge you are doing it, and then try to be authentic. And you can't be authentic by trying to hide behind "ghetto is simply a term."
> 
> That said, dialogue is never about being "technically correct." Technically correct dialogue in the real world is BORING. Think about how people actually talk to each other. Go somewhere like a mall and just sit in the food court and spend an hour listening to how people communicate. The average conversation is BORING and filled with empty words and filler sounds. The purpose of dialogue in a fictional work is not to be "technically correct." It is to move the plot forward and help define the characters.
> 
> Good dialogue is less about accents and more about understanding how a character constructs his sentences and chooses his words. And again, this is where spending lots of time listening to HOW people talk becomes useful. It is the difference between writing "I didn't do anything wrong!" versus "I do nothing wrong!" Same statement, but the sentence construction and word choice indicate two very difference speakers.


I'm not even going to comment on the term part, because...

And by "technically" correct, I mean, is the apostrophe used correctly? Not are the words in grammatically perfected order... Thanks, though.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> I think that, potential offensiveness aside, the point that is being made by most people commenting here is that the use of apostrophes is not necessary or even advisable to any large degree. Word choice, spelling, and phrasing can do most of the heavy lifting on the accent, which will work much better if you suggest it than if you bludgeon the reader with it. That's what I meant when I said your samples are a lot of work to read. If you had pulled back a little on overtly indicating the accent, my inner ear would have provided it and your character's dialogue would have flowed much more easily.


I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. I guess it's hard for me to just throw three random sentences up from this character. There are tons of clues within the writing, and how he acts, that reflect his speech pattern, that you guys can't see. So I think, in its current state (fish out of water), it can appear to be quite distracting.

My little heart keeps telling me that if the character speaks like "dis" then he should do so.

Another good point a VERY avid reader pointed out to me: If the writer doesn't use the ' then it looks as though it's a glaring typo.

I have to say that's a VALID argument...

I'm thinking about DiCaprio in BLOOD DIAMOND, and I can't help but think of his thick, South African accent. It scared me at first, but by the end of the film, I started quoting him! Of course that's a movie versus reading, but still. I was walking around sayin, "Dem gov'ment? How 'bout dem gov'ment, huh?" HAHA

FOR THE RECORD: The MC I'm asking about is... white.


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## NerdyWriter (Nov 23, 2013)

Rae Scott said:


> OMG. This is where I work EVERY DAY stuff!!! ok Ghetto is basically a lot of conjoined words that are horribly misspelled or made up or used incorrectly. Also double negatives as well. For example you have this:
> "I gotsta bounce. An' I really ain't feelin' this room. Ya crazy ass."
> 
> Where I work which is a very ghetto heavy neighborhood it would be more like this:
> ...


I'm from a ghetto neighborhood. There are no grammar rules (a lot of the rules are broken), but things tend to stay consistent: words used, the way they sound, repetitive nature and the boisterous nature of it.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

I did a piece on ebonics (which is what we're talking about here) in an anthropology course, and there is actually a defined grammar structure, it's not as varied as most people think. If you apply the basic sentence structure of ebonics, you can probably get the feel that you're looking for without the use of distracting apostrophes.

http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/aave.html

That's just one overview, but there are many more, if you do some digging.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

From a reader.  Lose the apostrophes.  They got distracting in a hurry.  If you want your character to say nuttin instead of nothing then write it without the apostrophe.  I have a feelin is fine.  I have a feelin' looks distracting.

Now as per writing a foreign dialect, the worst book I ever tried to read was one with 3 main characters.  One spoke very proper English (totally out of place for the area she was supposedly raised), the second spoke city English and the last character spoke broken tex-mex English.  She said the mexican had been working for the lady 20 years.
Problem one, she spelled phonetically only on the mexican and made him sound like he had never been around an English speaking person.  I did not finish that book.  It was very offensive.

Now yes, i expect very broken English from my 80 year old neighbor, with his wife I try to use what little spanish I know.  But we are the first whites they have ever spoken too without one of their kids around.  Their kids all speak very good english except one when he gets drunk.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

violarivard said:


> I did a piece on ebonics (which is what we're talking about here) in an anthropology course, and there is actually a defined grammar structure, it's not as varied as most people think. If you apply the basic sentence structure of ebonics, you can probably get the feel that you're looking for without the use of distracting apostrophes.
> 
> http://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/aave.html
> 
> That's just one overview, but there are many more, if you do some digging.


THANK YOU! This is why I came to the boards. Even in the example, though, it has some words using the 's. But applying this structure would help to reduce them for sure.

New question to all you wonderful folks: If I apply the above mentioned structure of Ebonics, and use apostrophes sparingly, would that be an easier, less distracting read?


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> THANK YOU! This is why I came to the boards. Even in the example, though, it has some words using the 's. But applying this structure would help to reduce them for sure.
> 
> New question to all you wonderful folks: If I apply the above mentioned structure of Ebonics, and use apostrophes sparingly, would that be an easier, less distracting read?


Considering this is pretty much exactly what I advised before, yes.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

How about _The Color Purple_

Guess a lot of folks found that offense while making it a best seller.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

I believe The Color Purple was 1st person, though. Which is different. Just as Forest Gump was in 1st person. Those are good examples of speaking differently, and having a HUGE following...

Even Cormac McCarthy writes different. Hell, he doesn't even use dialogue tags, and, yes, at first it's noticeable, even distracting, but soon-after you're used to it...

I drive my girlfriend nuts because I get to asking all these questions, and she thinks that there are no rules, and in some ways I have to agree with her. What is stupid today could be the norm tomorrow (I've said it before, I know  ).


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Considering this is pretty much exactly what I advised before, yes.


I like your coffee pic! HAHA Thanks! As always!


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Ghetto is not simply a term any more than N***** is simply a term. It has a huge, sociological amount of baggage attached to it in modern culture and is fundamentally associated with urban African American life. If you aren't making that connection, you are being disingenuous with the character.


Actually, the ghetto was orignally the phrase used to describe the Jewish areas in Europe. The phrase eventually became synonymous with other races/socio-economic groups to denote where they lived as "undesirable".

Just sayin.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

So, let's go back and see if I learned anything, or if anything improves.

*Original *
"You accusin' me of somethin'?"
*New*
"You accusin me of somethin?"

*Original *
"Yo, ya betta start answerin' me now! Quit askin' me [crap], aight?" Tad dragged the chair back to the table and sat down.
*New*
"Betta start answerin me, now! Quit askin me [crap], aight? Tad dragged the chair back to the table and sat down.

*Original *
"I gotsta bounce. An' I really ain't feelin' this room. Ya crazy ass." 
*New*
"I gotsta bounce. An I really ain't feelin this room. Ya crazy ass."

Do you still get the "ghetto slang" or whatever you want to call it from the "new" sentences? Are they less distracting? ! Thanks, guys!


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Personally, I prefer the originals better, but if the new phrases make you happier then use them instead.

Just be consistent.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

No, I don't think you got the entirety of the suggestions. Many of us said to use the spelling to indicate the dialect, without the apostrophes. Thus, "somethin'" would be "somethin," not "something." 

And yeah, if it were an isolated thing, the reader might read it as a typo, but they'd catch on pretty quickly when all the character's dialogue was written like that.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

On the first one, it should read "ya accusin me of sumthin".  No g's and no apostrophes.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> No, I don't think you got the entirety of the suggestions. Many of us said to use the spelling to indicate the dialect, without the apostrophes. Thus, "somethin'" would be "somethin," not "something."
> 
> And yeah, if it were an isolated thing, the reader might read it as a typo, but they'd catch on pretty quickly when all the character's dialogue was written like that.


Okay, I just modified the post to what I believe you are talking about. Better? Worse?

"Personally, I prefer the originals better, but if the new phrases make you happier then use them instead.

Just be consistent."

You mean writing is subjective? HAHA Damn!!! I can't win for losing... Thanks, though! You guys are really helping!


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> No, I don't think you got the entirety of the suggestions. Many of us said to use the spelling to indicate the dialect, without the apostrophes. Thus, "somethin'" would be "somethin," not "something."
> 
> And yeah, if it were an isolated thing, the reader might read it as a typo, but they'd catch on pretty quickly when all the character's dialogue was written like that.


Oh and damn another question: if I continue this path, and other characters have their own funky patterns, do I apply the same to them? To make Tad not so ALIEN?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

By George, i think ya nailed it.  Perfect.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

GaryCecil said:


> I drive my girlfriend nuts because I get to asking all these questions, and she thinks that there are no rules, and in some ways I have to agree with her.


Thank you for writing that. Have been driving my wife crazy for 39 years by asking her too many questions. At least she laughed when I showed her your post and said, "See, at least I'm not the only one who does it."


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Write in the characters dialect.  
Though remember southern USer's put gravy on their biscuits and Brits don't.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

sstroble said:


> Thank you for writing that. Have been driving my wife crazy for 39 years by asking her too many questions. At least she laughed when I showed her your post and said, "See, at least I'm not the only one who does it."


LMAO.

I have to say, your little book that looks like Iron Man's hand squeezing a planet, is so eye-catching! God, I love that picture! Sorry, I always call out a cover that just blows me away.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

You know, a lot of people advise not to spell things phonetically because it's distracting for the reader. I might have agreed, except that the funniest book that I ever read was "Forrest Gump." And that was spelled all phonetically with a ton of misspellings, because it was supposed to have been written by, well, Forrest Gump. At first it was distracting, but I soon got into it, and, once I overcame my innate prejudices to such a conceit, I was rolling on the floor laughing. And it wouldn't have been nearly as funny if it was all grammatically correct and properly spelled. 

But, then again, I lent that book to a friend of mine, and she couldn't get through the first page. It was just too much for her. So, YMMV. 

I also tried one phonetically spelled word to convey dialogue - I spelled the word "can't" as "cain't." A friend of mine dinged me hard on that one, thinking that it was just a typo and I was being "sloppy." And, it was on the first page. So, I changed it - I couldn't have readers thinking that I had a typo on the first page, and not everybody was going to get what I was trying to do.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Oh and d*mn another question: if I continue this path, and other characters have their own funky patterns, do I apply the same to them? To make Tad not so ALIEN?


See, this is why it opens such a can of worms when you decide to go out of your way to indicate dialect for a character, because in many communities throughout the country, people routinely (or at least, frequently) drop their G's or say "an" instead of "and." When you make a big deal of indicating that for just one character, it sends a subtle message that all the rest of the characters speak just as the words are written. That's another reason to focus on sentence structure and word usage to suggest the dialect, so that you can do that for each character and reflect their unique voice without having one guy stand out as the "colorful" one.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

It sounds you want to represent the sound of all dialects of English accurately by using non-standard spelling. I assume that means you want represent the "standard" American accent accurately as well. For instance, Americans translate the central "t" sound in words like _latter_ and _Peter_ to a "d" sound. So you should write these words _ladder_ and _Peder_, if your standard English speakers are American. Similarly, standard American English has almost universally shifted from the "o as in cot" vowel to the "u as in cut" vowel in words like _was_. So you'll need to go with _wus_ -- or maybe _wuz_, to avoid confusion. Representing all the aspects of various U.S. dialects accurately will be quite an undertaking, but the linguistic study you'll need to do should be pretty interesting.

Or is the English of lower-socio-economic-status Black folks the only one that needs to be spelled out how it sounds?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

GaryCecil said:


> Oh and d*mn another question: if I continue this path, and other characters have their own funky patterns, do I apply the same to them? To make Tad not so ALIEN?


Yes, exactly.

Of course, it will make for hard reading, but if you're committed to utter realism, your readers will just have to hack it.

ETA: _Udder_ realism. Sorry, forgot I wuz American there, for a moment.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Skip the eye-dialect and keep the actual "ghetto" words.  "I gots to bounce."


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

Rawles Marie Lumumba said:


> It's hugely distracting, not to mention potentially offensive.


Why would it be potentially offensive? Fiction is fiction, and how one chooses to portray characters in fiction is their choice. Getting offended over the way a fictional character speaks (in the politically correct or incorrect) sense is nonsensical.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> Why would it be potentially offensive? Fiction is fiction, and how one chooses to portray characters in fiction is their choice. Getting offended over the way a fictional character speaks (in the politically correct or incorrect) sense is a nonsensical.


The potential offense would come if only the one character's dialogue was full of obtrusive phonetic indicators, suggesting that everyone else speaks in a "normal" manner. It can convey a subtle, even unconscious bias against members of whatever community the character in question represents.


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## Lyoung (Oct 21, 2013)

As a reader, I enjoy characters with different voices, different terms, different ways of speech, etc. However, too many apostrophes would be distracting.

Someone stated that you shouldn't be intense about it, and I agree.

As someone who constantly came into contact with "ghetto speak" and used it myself (though perhaps not to such an intense degree) when I was in school, I would still wrinkle my nose and think the author was trying too hard if (a) the apostrophes were used too liberally, and (b) the colloquial language was too intense.

I remember reading a book once where the author had the main character encounter a young gang member. The way the author had the gang member talk was HILARIOUS because the speech sounded like the author was trying too hard to have the character sound street...when the author was clearly not from the streets nor ever had been. The author did this again in a later book, but she had the gang character have less colloquial language and represented his character more in the description of who he was. That worked better. He may not have seemed as genuine or hard as someone who could get the speech down right, but for the story, she handled it just right the second time around.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Once you let the reader know that the character speaks that way, you don't have to bash them in the face with it every sentence. I would suggest you pick out a few words to keep the 'ghetto' feel but skip the whole phonetic spelling thing which is a huge mistake unless you happen to be Mark Twain.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> The potential offense would come if only the one character's dialogue was full of obtrusive phonetic indicators, suggesting that everyone else speaks in a "normal" manner. It can convey a subtle, even unconscious bias against members of whatever community the character in question represents.


Pretty much, this, because "standard midwestern American" dialect routinely drops "gs" in speech and does other non-orthographically indicated things. Very, very few people, unless speaking formally, say "something," for instance. Don't write the things that aren't truly unique to their speech patterns--which means skip the eye-dialect. "My mamma didn't raise no fools" is fine. Those are the words. The non=standard spellings, though, are distracting and, yes, somewhat patronizing because it implies a precision of speech of other people that they don't actually have. (Unless you write "actually" as "akshally" for your other characters, which is how 99% of Americans say it in regular speech...)

There is a trend in so-called urban fiction to make a point of doing lots of eye-dialect, at least partially to establish the street cred of the writer (who, in all honesty, usually doesn't have much of one), but outside of that genre, I wouldn't do it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I can't believe we all forgot the biggie.
UNCLE REMUS.  He is the father of southern black dialect.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

GaryCecil said:


> Another good point a VERY avid reader pointed out to me: If the writer doesn't use the ' then it looks as though it's a glaring typo.


^^^This.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> Why would it be potentially offensive? Fiction is fiction, and how one chooses to portray characters in fiction is their choice. Getting offended over the way a fictional character speaks (in the politically correct or incorrect) sense is nonsensical.


^^^^THIS^^^^


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

THIS.

Sorry, just got carried away by the flow.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> It sounds you want to represent the sound of all dialects of English accurately by using non-standard spelling. I assume that means you want represent the "standard" American accent accurately as well. For instance, Americans translate the central "t" sound in words like _latter_ and _Peter_ to a "d" sound. So you should write these words _ladder_ and _Peder_, if your standard English speakers are American. Similarly, standard American English has almost universally shifted from the "o as in cot" vowel to the "u as in cut" vowel in words like _was_. So you'll need to go with _wus_ -- or maybe _wuz_, to avoid confusion. Representing all the aspects of various U.S. dialects accurately will be quite an undertaking, but the linguistic study you'll need to do should be pretty interesting.
> 
> Or is the English of lower-socio-economic-status Black folks the only one that needs to be spelled out how it sounds?


You obviously didn't read the thread, and decided to chime in. The character I'm referring to is WHITE. And his language is influenced from the culture he surrounded himself in, 90s rap, prison, a gang. Guess what? They're not all one color... and nor am I "pointing" out a specific class. My brother speaks exactly like the character... so I kind of know what I'm talking about, and it's not singularly pointed to anything. It's just how he talks. I don't see color in language, or anything for that matter. You prove that you do by ASSUMING my character is "black" based on his speech. That, I cannot help you with.


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## RML (Feb 24, 2014)

> Why would it be potentially offensive? Fiction is fiction, and how one chooses to portray characters in fiction is their choice. Getting offended over the way a fictional character speaks (in the politically correct or incorrect) sense is nonsensical.


I and LeeBee and others have explained multiple times that the offense comes from singling out specific accents and dialects to write out phonetically, thus otherizing the people who speak them. And doing this despite the fact that, again, as mentioned multiple times, the "standard" American accent could similarly be spelled out phonetically. Yet people generally don't litter dialogue with "ledder" and "wuz" because that's considered the "normal" way of speaking.

The fact that you are not personally offended or don't think that people should be offended does nothing to change other people's reactions and constantly repeating variations on "Why would it be offensive?!" when that's been answered over and over just makes it look like you either aren't reading the detailed answers explaining why or just don't actually care to have the question answered.

Either way, I'm certainly not going to argue about it.


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

If it helps, proper term for writing in the common or local dialect is _*Vernacular*_.

Writing in the vernacular is difficult and dangerous. Trying to catch the sound of the way someone speaks is not easy and keeping it consistent will really tax your writing as you do it. And people may not take too kindly to your efforts. Consider having two characters with difficult accents having a conversation in your book, written in the vernacular. It might be so difficult to read, that the reader may simply skip over those parts.

One of Mark Twain's contemporaries released a book around the time when Twain's _Huckleberry Finn_ was published. About halfway through the book, the author abruptly stopped using vernacular and went to writing clearly and included the explanation between the chapters that he was tired of working out all the oddball pronunciations and stops in the characters' speech patterns. I never read the book myself, but it was referenced by one of my professors when I was in school. (Someday, I'll have to hunt for that book&#8230 Even Twain remarked how difficult it was to use vernacular speech and decided to avoid it when it wasn't needed.

After having attempted that style myself, I decided for the future that the only time I will put a character's speech into vernacular usage will be when that character is simply there to fill a scene, for comedic effect when I need to throw in a misunderstanding, or I am going to dispose of that character in some way.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

I personally don't think it's offensive to point out how someone talks. It's nothing to do with race/color/class. Speech is a sound. That's it. It's all in how you look at it. Hell, in American History X, Edward Norton's prison buddy talked in ebonics, but it didn't degrade him as a person. It was just who he was, his sound, and you end up liking the man, realizing he was in prison for a minor offense.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

GaryCecil said:


> You obviously didn't read the thread, and decided to chime in. The character I'm referring to is WHITE. And his language is influenced from the culture he surrounded himself in, 90s rap, prison, a gang. Guess what? They're not all one color... and nor am I "pointing" out a specific class. My brother speaks exactly like the character... so I kind of know what I'm talking about, and it's not singularly pointed to anything. It's just how he talks. I don't see color in language, or anything for that matter. You prove that you do by ASSUMING my character is "black." based on his speech. That, I cannot help you with.


I did read the thread, Gary. The point is not the character's race. The point is that he's speaking a certain subdialect of black English. Yes, there are some white folks who speak black English, either because they grew up in an environment where that was the majority speech, or as an affectation. Their whiteness doesn't make what they're speaking NOT black English.

Think of it this way: if some Brits got stationed in the U.S. for 10 years, and their kids ended up speaking like the American kids they grew up around even though they remained British citizens, would that mean American English wasn't American English anymore? Just because there are some non-Americans floating around who sound like Americans? No, of course not.

When you take one form of speech and single it out for special treatment, you're setting other forms of speech up as what's "normal." But no form of English is "normal." We all speak dialects of whatever language we speak.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

WDR said:


> Writing in the vernacular is difficult and dangerous. Trying to catch the sound of the way someone speaks is not easy and keeping it consistent will really tax your writing as you do it.


AMEN to that, brother. It is HARD to do this. That's part of the reason I came here and asked. It's hard, and I wasn't even sure if it was "correct."


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Gary darlin, I think you are getting your nose bent for nothing.  People are just giving their opinions and for the record, I have been trying to figure out if your character was Italian or black.  Your examples sounded almost classic mob.
Now write your book as best as you see fit.
This was written in pure southern belle.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I did read the thread, Gary. The point is not the character's race. The point is that he's speaking a certain subdialect of black English. Yes, there are some white folks who speak black English, either because they grew up in an environment where that was the majority speech, or as an affectation. Their whiteness doesn't make what they're speaking NOT black English.
> 
> Think of it this way: if some Brits got stationed in the U.S. for 10 years, and their kids ended up speaking like the American kids they grew up around even though they remained British citizens, would that mean American English wasn't American English anymore? Just because there are some non-Americans floating around who sound like Americans? No, of course not.
> 
> When you take one form of speech and single it out for special treatment, you're setting other forms of speech up as what's "normal." But no form of English is "normal." We all speak dialects of whatever language we speak.


Okay but comparing a countries' dialect to a colors' is much different. Once again. I don't see color in speech. I hear sound.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Gary darlin, I think you are getting your nose bent for nothing. People are just giving their opinions and for the record, I have been trying to figure out if your character was Italian or black. Your examples sounded almost classic mob.
> Now write your book as best as you see fit.
> This was written in pure southern belle.


HAHA. Well, since it's only a few things the character has said, and you guys have no information about all the other (hopefully) great stuff I wrote, of course, I don't expect you to "get it." It's funny, though. I get set on a certain answer, and then other people say the complete opposite...

Lesson of the day: writing is subjective, and you can't make everyone happy!


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## RML (Feb 24, 2014)

> I personally don't think it's offensive to point out how someone talks. It's nothing to do with race/color/class. Speech is a sound. That's it. It's all in how you look at it. Hell, in American History X, Edward Norton's prison buddy talked in ebonics, but it didn't degrade him as a person. It was just who he was, his sound, and you end up liking the man, realizing he was in prison for a minor offense.


I'm going to make this clarification because it's important: at no point, ever, was I saying or implying that there was anything at all wrong with speaking AAVE or any other dialect. I speak AAVE myself. I find the very idea that it could be considered somehow "degrading" myself to do so utterly ridiculous.

The issue is not with speaking in accents and dialects or referencing that someone does. It is with regard to how those accents and dialects are represented in comparison to accents and dialects that are allowed to be invisible under the pretension of normality.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

Rawles Marie Lumumba said:


> I and LeeBee and others have explained multiple times that the offense comes from singling out specific accents and dialects to write out phonetically, thus otherizing the people who speak them. And doing this despite the fact that, again, as mentioned multiple times, the "standard" American accent could similarly be spelled out phonetically. Yet people generally don't litter dialogue with "ledder" and "wuz" because that's considered the "normal" way of speaking.
> 
> The fact that you are not personally offended or don't think that people should be offended does nothing to change other people's reactions and constantly repeating variations on "Why would it be offensive?!" when that's been answered over and over just makes it look like you either aren't reading the detailed answers explaining why or just don't actually care to have the question answered.
> 
> Either way, I'm certainly not going to argue about it.


First all, who is / was arguing with you. LOL And for that matter, who asked you to explain anything multiple times, or frankly at all? I do not, repeat, do NOT need you to explain anything to me. I merely posed my question once, and as I've said, it wasn't to you.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

GaryCecil said:


> HAHA. Well, since it's only a few things the character has said, and you guys have no information about all the other (hopefully) great stuff I wrote, of course, I don't expect you to "get it." It's funny, though. I get set on a certain answer, and then other people say the complete opposite...
> 
> Lesson of the day: writing is subjective, and you can't make everyone happy!


This is also a good lesson in how context means a lot. Just remember if you do it, lose the apostrophes and the g's.


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## RML (Feb 24, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> First all, who is / was arguing with you. LOL And for that matter, who asked you to explain anything multiple times, or frankly at all? I do not, repeat, do NOT need you to explain anything to me. I merely posed my question once, and as I've said, it wasn't to you.


I didn't say anyone was arguing with me. I said that I wasn't going to argue about it. As in, I wasn't going to attempt to contradict or argue against your opinion that fiction shouldn't offend anyone. As for who asked me to explain, generally speaking, when a person asks a question such as "Why would that be offensive?" they are by definition asking someone to explain... why that would be offensive. You weren't the only one to pose that question, which is why it had been answered multiple times.

If you weren't asking me, that's fine. But given that you directly quoted my post I think it's understandable why I would assume your reply was directed towards me.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

GaryCecil said:


> Okay but comparing a countries' dialect to a colors' is much different. Once again. I don't see color in speech. I hear sound.


That's very admirable, on your part. But many people do make (usually unconscious) judgments about others based on their speech -- not just in regards to race, but also class, education level, region of the country, etc. We have a national history of thinking certain groups are not as good as others, and those associations tend to rub off on those groups' forms of English and stick around. It's a hard thing to combat because the associations are under the surface.

Think about the language you've used to describe your characters' ways of speaking: some of them, like Tad, have "funky patterns" of speech. That suggests that the rest of the characters have non-funky patterns of speech, right? But language doesn't really work that way. Whatever you're used to sounds non-funky and everything else sounds funky. So when you try to separate out some characters and pay homage to their "funky" speech, you're doing it from the position of what sounds normal to you. So then the whole book takes on _your_ speech identity: people who talk like you are normal and don't need any special spellings, and people who don't talk like you are funky and need special spellings. But in reality, your speech is funky, too -- from the standpoint of a listener who belongs to a different speech community.

So when you single out one form of language as funky and spell it phonetically, but you don't treat other language forms that way, you're establishing a norm and a non-norm. When the non-norm coincides with a historically oppressed group, that can seem pretty obnoxious.

Here's another thing that happens sometimes in American fiction: a character's race will be mentioned if they're not white, but if they are white, their race won't be mentioned. When that happens, it suggests that being white is "normal." We just expect that person = white. So if a person is not white, that's unexpected and bears mentioning, but if they are white, you rely on the assumption and say nothing. This kind of thing is subtle, but pretty creepy when you start thinking about it.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Think of it this way: if some Brits got stationed in the U.S. for 10 years, and their kids ended up speaking like the American kids they grew up around even though they remained British citizens, would that mean American English wasn't American English anymore? Just because there are some non-Americans floating around who sound like Americans? No, of course not.
> 
> When you take one form of speech and single it out for special treatment, you're setting other forms of speech up as what's "normal." But no form of English is "normal." We all speak dialects of whatever language we speak.


True, but to have a Cockney person speak with an American, without even a nod to the fact that they speak vastly different, would be disingenuous.

The accents exist. Ignoring them is more insulting.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LBrent said:


> True, but to have a Cockney person speak with an American, without even a nod to the fact that they speak vastly different, would be disingenuous.
> 
> The accents exist. Ignoring them is more insulting.


I agree that you should get characters' ways of speaking across to readers, so that they end up with a rich, accurate sense of what the person is like. But doing it through lots of strange spelling and apostrophes? I don't think that's the best way to handle it, especially if you're doing it very selectively.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I agree that you should get characters' ways of speaking across to readers, so that they end up with a rich, accurate sense of what the person is like. But doing it through lots of strange spelling and apostrophes? I don't think that's the best way to handle it, especially if you're doing it very selectively.


Back to consistency.

Whichever accent/dialect is the predominant one for that area IS the normal one for that area. Everyone else is "other". It's not racial...unless it is.

If Japanese are in Japan speaking in American accents, they are "other". The norm for Japan is to speak Japanese or any other language with a Japanese accent. To point out the difference in speech isn't racist, it's aiding the reader to recognize which is not the norm.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LBrent said:


> Back to consistency.
> 
> Whichever accent/dialect is the predominant one for that area IS the normal one for that area. Everyone else is "other". It's not racial...unless it is.
> 
> If Japanese are in Japan speaking in American accents, they are "other". The norm for Japan is to speak Japanese or any other language with a Japanese accent. To point out the difference in speech isn't racist, it's aiding the reader to recognize which is not the norm.


The way I'd handle that situation would be to write something like, "When I struck up a conversation with X, I noticed her Japanese had an American accent." Job done -- that's all it takes.

More broadly, I just don't follow your way of thinking about people (whatever group hits 51% is "normal" and everyone else is "other").


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> More broadly, I just don't follow your way of thinking about people (whatever group hits 51% is "normal" and everyone else is "other").


Lol. I can agree to disagree, but if the majority is one thing how can the rest not be "other"?

If we're on Mars, humans are other.

If everyone living in a certain town are vegetarians, the rest are other.

If everyone in a certain area are military, the rest are other.

No?


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

LBrent said:


> Lol. I can agree to disagree, but if the majority is one thing how can the rest not be "other"?
> 
> If we're on Mars, humans are other.
> 
> ...


True, but the point being made is that it's dangerous to "otherize" any group in your story, because chances are your reader will be a member of that group and feel marginalized by the author, even unintentionally. Unless the "otherizing" is actually a point of the story for some reason, it's best to just not make a big, obtrusive deal out of one character's accent if you're not treating all the other accents in a similar fashion.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> True, but the point being made is that it's dangerous to "otherize" any group in your story, because chances are your reader will be a member of that group and feel marginalized by the author, even unintentionally. Unless the "otherizing" is actually a point of the story for some reason, it's best to just not make a big, obtrusive deal out of one character's accent if you're not treating all the other accents in a similar fashion.


Erm.

Ok.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

I almost didn't respond to this thread because of the derogatory term "ghetto" used to refer to a dialect spoken by millions of people in this country. But just in case I can be of help to anyone trying to write dialect,  my novel New Hope City is written in a southern dialect (white characters) that is similar to African American dialect but not exactly the same. But before I wrote that book I had lived in Georgia for six years and I understood the dialect well enough to pull it off. I received maybe one or two (max) reviews stating that the use of dialect was distracting. I also had southeners from that region read my work to give me feedback. I think that before you can effectively write any dialect you need to at a minimum respect the dialect and the people from which it came. Unfortunately, from reading this thread, there doesn't seem to be much respect present for this dialect so I suggest not "going out of your way" to use "ghetto" dialect. So just do yourself a favor and pass it on by.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

I personally prefer to use a light touch. Since my goal is to pull the reader into the character's mindset and motivations, I try to make the dialect feel like a comfortable pair of shoes for the reader. So while my characters definitely speak in a manner that fits who they are and where they are from, I am trying to coax the reader into riding shotgun with them rather than distancing them from the characters.

To this end, I generally avoid phonetic treatments. There are exceptions to this, but they are generally few and far between.

My personal objection to phonetic treatments is basically this: Regardless of how a person's accent sounds to another person, they know exactly what they are trying to convey, and this meaning is what needs to be received by the reader. Some regional accents may drop g's at the ends of words, but although the result may sound like "anythin'" to another listener, it is "anything" that is being conveyed. And if the listener is from the same region and given to the same patterns of pronunciation, "anything" is what the listener hears, because they are listening for the meaning of what is being said.

As far as phrasing and word choices go, the best school is experience. If you're going to write a realistic character from the hood, it helps to have spent some time in the hood. If you haven't been carrying on conversations with people of the backgrounds you are writing about, there is a danger that your efforts to emulate speech patterns are going to come off as off-pitch and possibly condescending.

All language has a grammar to it. It may not be the grammar you were taught in school, but there is an internal logic to it, and phrasings which may be viewed as grammatical "mistakes" are in fact not mistakes within the context of the vernacular's specific grammar. These "mistakes" may in fact be intentionally deployed to a specific purpose and intent.

Take the following example:

"He don't know you!"

"Yes he do!"

Both speakers in this particular exchange knew perfectly well how to use the "standard" subject/verb agreement of "He doesn't know you!"/"Yes he does!" and in other contexts may in fact use those "standard" usages. But because this exchange occurred in the course of an argument, where both speakers were emphatically trying to drive their points home, they went to the "don't/do" variation because it signifies emphasis and an intention not to budge. So in addition to understanding the rules at play for any particular dialect, it also needs to be understood that dialect is often modulated to fit the situation. Sometimes it's ramped up, and sometimes it's tamped down.

So my basic point is this: It's important to have a firm grasp of they way the language is used. Changing up words with the hope that it will be convincing is probably a vain effort if there's not a clear understanding and appreciation of the internal logic and common usage for a particular dialect.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am glad zandermarks popped in.  I was thinking about his book today.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I almost didn't respond to this thread because of the derogatory term "ghetto" used to refer to a dialect spoken by millions of people in this country. But just in case I can be of help to anyone trying to write dialect, my novel New Hope City is written in a southern dialect (white characters) that is similar to African American dialect but not exactly the same. But before I wrote that book I had lived in Georgia for six years and I understood the dialect well enough to pull it off. I received maybe one or two (max) reviews stating that the use of dialect was distracting. I also had southeners from that region read my work to give me feedback. I think that before you can effectively write any dialect you need to at a minimum respect the dialect and the people from which it came. Unfortunately, from reading this thread, there doesn't seem to be much respect present for this dialect so I suggest not "going out of your way" to use "ghetto" dialect. So just do yourself a favor and pass it on by.


Okay, this is REALLY getting annoying. The word "ghetto" is not a derogatory term. At all. It's seriously annoying. "Ghetto slang" does not mean anything bad. Period. I'm simply referring to it as a "style" of speech.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

zandermarks said:


> I personally prefer to use a light touch. Since my goal is to pull the reader into the character's mindset and motivations, I try to make the dialect feel like a comfortable pair of shoes for the reader. So while my characters definitely speak in a manner that fits who they are and where they are from, I am trying to coax the reader into riding shotgun with them rather than distancing them from the characters.
> 
> To this end, I generally avoid phonetic treatments. There are exceptions to this, but they are generally few and far between.
> 
> ...


I sincerely appreciate the detailed response. HIGHLY noted. Thank you.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

GaryCecil said:


> Okay, this is REALLY getting annoying. The word "ghetto" is not a derogatory term. At all. It's seriously annoying. "Ghetto slang" does not mean anything bad. Period. I'm simply referring to it as a "style" of speech.


ghet·to
[get-oh] Show IPA
noun, plural ghet·tos, ghet·toes.
1.
a section of a city, especially a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships.
2.
(formerly, in most European countries) a section of a city in which all Jews were required to live.
3.
a section predominantly inhabited by Jews.
4.
any mode of living, working, etc., that results from stereotyping or biased treatment: job ghettos for women; ghettos for the elderly.
adjective
5.
pertaining to or characteristic of life in a ghetto or the people who live there: ghetto culture.
6.
Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive. noting something that is considered to be unrefined, low-class, cheap, or inferior: Her furniture is so ghetto!


GaryCecil said:


> Okay, this is REALLY getting annoying. The word "ghetto" is not a derogatory term. At all. It's seriously annoying. "Ghetto slang" does not mean anything bad. Period. I'm simply referring to it as a "style" of speech.


So, let me get this right, you're saying that African American Vernacular English is ghetto? Well, let's see what the dictionary says about ghetto as you've used it:

..noting something that is considered to be unrefined, low-class, cheap, or inferior: Her furniture is so ghetto!

The only thing annoying is your dishonesty. I'm done with this thread. Good luck (I mean that) with your book.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

The occasional somthin' doesn't bother me. A few of these littered through the MS can be enough to get the point across.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I am glad zandermarks popped in. I was thinking about his book today.


I was, too.

Great minds think alike.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

One other note:

Even if a particular character is from a modest background or uses a vernacular which is rich in its own style, it's important to remember that none of us operates in linguistic isolation. So don't be afraid to allow your character some range with regard to phrasing and vocabulary borrowed from the culture at large. People absorb words and phrasing from television, radio, public school, and interactions of all kinds. So even if your character operates primarily within a specific context such as the hood, don't hesitate to give him or her the leeway to borrow from elsewhere, as there is a rich tradition of borrowing, repurposing, and adapting language to one's own ends. And if your character is in the habit of engaging in wordplay, he or she may enjoy dropping some "atypical" stuff into the mix to keep his or her verbal game interesting.

As an example of this, I have found only one pop song that has ever used the academic-sounding multisyllabic tongue-twister "prerogative."






So don't limit your character's linguistic options too much, no matter what some people may or may not expect.


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Okay, this is REALLY getting annoying. The word "ghetto" is not a derogatory term. At all. It's seriously annoying. "Ghetto slang" does not mean anything bad. Period. I'm simply referring to it as a "style" of speech.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

You can write your character's dialogue in any way that serves your story. However, ghetto is a derogatory term. It is not simply a descriptive term.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Gary,

My question for you at this point would be, have you gotten the information you needed?


Betsy


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Are the characters set in the 90s? Because many of those phrases/words are not used in the urban, black environment that often. Shade, Tea, Hunty.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Gary,
> 
> My question for you at this point would be, have you gotten the information you needed?
> 
> Betsy


I believe so. Very good responses from some EXTREMELY helpful folks.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Are the characters set in the 90s? Because many of those phrases/words are not used in the urban, black environment that often. Shade, Tea, Hunty.


The character is not living in the nineties, but was more-or-less shaped by them.  And remember (this is not to you specifically), I like to think of my characters as unique, individual. So if one talks "different" or arranges things in spastic ways, they are not REPRESENTING an entire culture/class/religion/whatever, they are simply being them. I think that's something a lot of people have missed sight of. Your character is an individual, not a race/color. I don't write characters to represent a certain type of anything. We label TOO much in this society as it is. Why can't a human just be as they are? Speak as they are? Look as they are? Be... just... human?

Thanks for all the wonderful responses guys. Believe-it-or-not, I take in what you each have to say. You've helped me tremendously, and my story will be better, because of you.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I accidentally destroyed my post.  Darn it. 
And sorry Betsy, it won't happen again.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, you didn't really have to go nuclear. 

Betsy


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

GaryCecil said:


> The character is not living in the nineties, but was more-or-less shaped by them.  And remember (this is not to you specifically), I like to think of my characters as unique, individual. So if one talks "different" or arranges things in spastic ways, they are not REPRESENTING an entire culture/class/religion/whatever, they are simply being them. I think that's something a lot of people have missed sight of. Your character is an individual, not a race/color. I don't write characters to represent a certain type of anything. We label TOO much in this society as it is. Why can't a human just be as they are? Speak as they are? Look as they are? Be... just... human?
> 
> Thanks for all the wonderful responses guys. Believe-it-or-not, I take in what you each have to say. You've helped me tremendously, and my story will be better, because of you.


Unfortunately, I have known some readers who have put down books when they found out the main character (heroine) was Black. This happened with romance in particular. So although it would be nice if everyone saw a character as simply an individual, but some people choose only to read characters with specific aesthetic features.

Just be careful of creating an anachronistic character. I think that would come off as offensive because it would seem like Black, urban language (and yes, that's what some people consider to be modern-day "Ghetto") is not evolving with the times.


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## mrain4th (May 19, 2013)

When you put the ' in, lots of readers will say it's distracting.  When you leave it out, you'll have lots of reviews claiming 'grammar errors throughout'.  You'll never please everyone; follow your gut.


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