# Breaking News: Amazon Pulls Macmillan ebooks...



## Leslie

from the New York Times:

*Amazon Pulls Macmillan Books Over E-book Price Disagreement*
By BRAD STONE
As Venture Beat and other blogs have noticed Friday evening, books from Macmillan, one of the largest publishers in the United states, have vanished from Amazon.com.

The question is why.

I've talked to a person with knowledge of the dispute who says the disappearance is the result of an disagreement between Amazon.com and book publishers that has been brewing for the last year. Macmillan, like other publishers, has asked Amazon to raise to the price of e-books from $9.99 to around $15. "Amazon is expressing its strong disagreement by temporarily removing Macmillan books," said this person, who did not want to be quoted by name because of the status of negotiations.

Macmillan is one of the publishers signed on to offer books to Apple, as part of its new iBookstore. Its imprints include Farrar, Straus & Giroux, St. Martins Press and Henry Holt.

Apple, as we've reported before, will allow publishers more leeway to set their own prices for e-books. It's not clear yet if publishers can withhold books from Amazon while giving them to other parties like Apple - I've spoken to two anti-trust attorneys who say it could raise legal issues.

Macmillan has not yet returned a request for comment. Amazon refused to comment.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/amazon-pulls-macmillan-books-over-e-book-price-disagreement/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+nytimes/dKEH+(Bits)


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## JennaAnderson

Interesting... Let the games begin!


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## Leslie

A blog post from author John Scalzi (whose books are affected by this development)

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/29/macmillan-books-gone-missing-from-amazon/


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## kwajkat

Soooooooo do we get refunds on anything if they delete off our kindles/archives?  I have never pay any attention to the publishers when I have gotten books, I suppose we are going to get the short end of the deal for now. Macmillan must need money because the price increases don't filter down to the authors. 

I know- maybe Amazon can sue Macmillan on behalf of the collective kindle borg!


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## Rasputina

Interesting is right. Since we only have rights to read kindle books and not ownership I wonder what that means in the long term? Although if Amazon is eating the profit loss due to these discount prices like they do with discount hardcovers why should the publishers care? They still get their money.


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## markel

Rasputina said:


> Interesting is right. Since we only have rights to read kindle books and not ownership I wonder what that means in the long term? Although if Amazon is eating the profit loss like due to these discount prices like they do with discount hardcovers why should the publishers care? They still get their money.


As of this moment, my Tor books are still on my Kindle and show in my archive online.


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## LuckyKelleyK

Luckily only one of the books on my wish list was removed. It now says "this title is no longer available".


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## Cora

So, I had to look up Macmillan to see if I recognized any books they published. I didn't realize that it encompasses multiple publishers. I think what I'm most distraught about is the fact that Tor is among those. Hopefully the issue is resolved quickly and amicably. I'd hate to lose out on a large chunk of books like that.


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## ElaineOK

They care, because this sets a price point in customers' minds for what a book should sell for.

This also reminds me to look into a better way to back up my Kindle books.  That should be a separate thread.  

Elaine
Norman, Oklahoma


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## Rasputina

Really? so they boycotted and threw a fit for all these years that Amazon has been selling print books at discount? I think not.


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## nabrum

kwajkat said:


> Soooooooo do we get refunds on anything if they delete off our kindles/archives?


Some who had bought the missing books before they were missing say they still have them on their K's and archives. So this isn't a 1984 fiasco.


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## VictoriaP

I would doubt Amazon will pull the ebooks off Kindles.  This is merely a pricing dispute for future sales, not an argument that past sales should be affected.  Otherwise we'd hear the publisher saying that we all need to be charged additionally for books we already own.

I do smell anti trust litigation though.  Price fixing is problematic for this whole issue, and it's not like the publisher can claim they were losing sales at the lower prices, since Amazon makes up the difference between the "digital list" price and the actual price they sell the ebook for.

Oh, this will indeed be interesting.  Hopefully it's MacMillan who takes the heat though, and not Amazon.


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## Amberle

I had several Tor books listed in my Amazon wish list and now they are all gone (Wheel of Time books). I am furious about this. Even with the pricing wars, what right does anyone have to tell me how and in which format I want to read my books? I don't want to read them on an any damn apple product, I want to read them on my kindle!


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## Rasputina

VictoriaP said:


> I would doubt Amazon will pull the ebooks off Kindles. This is merely a pricing dispute for future sales, not an argument that past sales should be affected. Otherwise we'd hear the publisher saying that we all need to be charged additionally for books we already own.


But we don't own any kindle books. That is the thing. I have no idea what the parameters of the licensing rights to read the books consists of exactly. If Amazon chooses to sever their contract with a publisher how does that effect licensing rights, that is the question I have.


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## Rasputina

Amberle said:


> I had several Tor books listed in my Amazon wish list and now they are all gone (Wheel of Time books). I am furious about this. Even with the pricing wars, what right does anyone have to tell me how and in which format I want to read my books? I don't want to read them on an any damn apple product, I want to read them on my kindle!


This isn't about Apple. They yanked the print books also. Apple doesn't sell print books. The Gathering Storm, just published Oct 2009 the hardcover is listed as unavailable too.


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## sem

It is time to backup book purchases to somewhere other than Amazon. I have all of mine on an external hard drive.


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## Cora

Rasputina said:


> This isn't about Apple. They yanked the print books also. Apple doesn't sell print books. The Gathering Storm, just published Oct 2009 the hardcover is listed as unavailable too.


I'm sure that she's just mentioning it since the publisher was just announced to have signed an agreement with Apple (their supposed "Kindle Killer", which we all know won't happen). It's funny, that this happens just a few days after the the big announcement from Apple as well. It possibly could have something to do with the iBookstore pricing, since price seems to be the big issue. Again, I'm just assuming, but I don't think you really need to jump down her throat like that.


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## Rasputina

I actually just updated in the other ereaders forum thread on the ipad where Steve Jobs is interviewed saying the prices will be the same in both ebook sellers stores. 

In a video  shot by AllThingsD's Kara Swisher, and featuring Walt Mossberg of AllThingsD and The Wall Street Journal, Mossberg asks Jobs how iBooks will compete with the established leader, Amazon, pointing out the prices on Amazon's ebooks are much lower than what Jobs had indicated they will be on iBooks, or somewhere between $8 and $15.

"That won't be the case," Jobs said.

"You won't be $14.99, or they wont be $9.99," Mossberg asked.

"The prices will be the same," Jobs replied.

Jobs then said something about the publishers not being happy, that was somewhat garbled by the audio recording. 


Regardless Amazon yanked the print versions of the publishers books also, so this isn't just about ebooks. It sure is effecting more than just ebooks since you can't even buy the print versions there now.

I wasn't jumping down anyones throat, I was clarifying the situation as I saw it.


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## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> But we don't own any kindle books. That is the thing. I have no idea what the parameters of the licensing rights to read the books consists of exactly. If Amazon chooses to sever their contract with a publisher how does that effect licensing rights, that is the question I have.


Realistically, neither side can afford to let it get that far. They'll push each other, true, but Amazon can't afford the backlash if the books are removed, and MacMillan isn't going to be at all happy with a MASSIVE drop in their sales if they lose Amazon as a vendor. Amazon's probably in the top 5 retailers for any given publisher, and may very well be in the top two. Some people will take their business elsewhere. Others will likely wait it out, so long as it doesn't go on for too long. Writers, in the meantime, are not likely to be happy that their books are no longer as visible.

Additionally, neither is going to want to take this to court, because it would take YEARS for the anti trust litigators to work their way through it. It's almost certainly not going to be something that any company in this industry wants to see happen, publishers or retailers--but I bet publishers in particular don't want it to get that far, because they're the ones who stand to lose the most long term. End customers are not going to be happy that they can't get the best possible prices, and unhappy customers tend to vote with their wallets.

Both sides have reason to come to an agreement, and soon.


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## Rasputina

VictoriaP said:


> Realistically, neither side can afford to let it get that far. They'll push each other, true, but Amazon can't afford the backlash if the books are removed, and MacMillan isn't going to be at all happy with a MASSIVE drop in their sales if they lose Amazon as a vendor. Amazon's probably in the top 5 retailers for any given publisher, and may very well be in the top two. Some people will take their business elsewhere. Others will likely wait it out, so long as it doesn't go on for too long. Writers, in the meantime, are not likely to be happy that their books are no longer as visible.
> 
> Additionally, neither is going to want to take this to court, because it would take YEARS for the anti trust litigators to work their way through it. It's almost certainly not going to be something that any company in this industry wants to see happen, publishers or retailers--but I bet publishers in particular don't want it to get that far, because they're the ones who stand to lose the most long term. End customers are not going to be happy that they can't get the best possible prices, and unhappy customers tend to vote with their wallets.
> 
> Both sides have reason to come to an agreement, and soon.


Yes I was just thinking that the writers are the ones caught in the middle here and they can't be happy that their books are not listed for sale with one of the biggest book sellers there is.

The thing that gets me is that Amazon is basically refusing to sell books they clearly have in stock in some sort temper tantrum. And I'm not even talking about ebooks. They have print books sitting in their distribution centers and are basically saying fine I'll take my toys and go home. I would be really pissed off if I had a book waiting to be shipped that they yanked off the availability list. And I like Amazon, I've spent literally thousands of dollars in the last year alone in their store.


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## Scheherazade

I'm betting this brouhaha ties almost -directly- into Apple and ebooks.  Why would the publisher be upset whether or not they're getting their money because Amazon eats the loss and they don't?  Because no other retailers are likely to do that, that's why.  They want a bigger market to sell ebooks, which means selling them on other devices, which means either taking the loss themselves to offer them competitively with Amazon through these other venues or raising their prices and losing out on sales due to people who expect all books to follow the Kindle pricing structure.  They want to set this profitable pricing structure across the boards so they can have the best of both worlds and I'm really glad to see Amazon standing behind their guns and showing how serious they are about their price points.

And Jobs saying "The prices will be the same." instead of "We will match the $9.99 price point on top sellers." sounds pretty fishy to me.  Him saying that could mean he expects Amazon's prices to rise to meet what he envisions is the right price for an ebook.  Again, that could be what this sudden move by MacMillan is all about, trying to make it so "the prices will be the same" but at a higher price point than we'd expect.


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## kwajkat

I just emailed one of my favorite authors (Thurlos) after discovering all of their books (12) with the exception of the (5) Harlquin ones were pulled. I think the publishers have been planning this for awhile because I had preordered Thurlo's latest book Earthway (Ella Clah series) in Sept. I never received the kindle edition. It was listed for preorder then a week before it was to come out, the kindle edition was pulled and has not been back. I have the hardback as they are one of the authors I will continue to buy in hardback as well. 

I let them know how unhappy I was and that not everyone is able to read off of a computer/itouch/iPad screen for every long and that most of us who have kindles read longer than 15-20 minutes or whatever it takes to make the eyes blurry etc.

Maybe if everyone wrote their favorite authors, and even Oprah since MacMillan is her publisher, it might help.

I am wondering if the collective kindle borg can assimiate the publishers into the collective and straighten them out??


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## Magenta

Ugh....I'm so tired of these pricing wars.  Just let them sell the darned books at what ever price they want.  If the price is too high, no one will buy it and they will be forced to lower it.


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## kwajkat

If anyone has noticed the formatting on the "apple" books isn't any better than the kindle books and they charge more. If the publishers would take a little more care in their finished product, people wouldn;t mind paying the higher price if it was reasonable.

As Charlton Heston would say, never until my hands are dead and cold will they take my kindle away!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sherylb

You know, I have never like bullies. 
The Publishing Houses hopping into bed with Apple and taking a stand to protect their enormous profits will only enable more indie authors to be seen and to hopefully become more mainstream. It's like PGA golf now that Tiger is gone...oh yeah, there _are_ other golfers out there!


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## The Hooded Claw

LuckyKelleyK said:


> Luckily only one of the books on my wish list was removed. It now says "this title is no longer available".


As it happens, I'd noticed this message earlier this evening, and I suspect this is the cause in my case also.


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## akpak

I hope Amazon is wielding a big enough stick to whip the publishers in line. Apple did it with music, and hopefully Amazon (and Apple if they're in agreement) can keep ebooks at a reasonable price.


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## 911jason

Leslie said:


> A blog post from author John Scalzi (whose books are affected by this development)
> 
> http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/29/macmillan-books-gone-missing-from-amazon/


Comment #22 Kenshin on 29 Jan 2010 at 9:51 pm

As per the Kindle stuff, I work on the Kindle team at Amazon. We will NEVER remove books from your account. The 1984 situation was a mess and will never happen again.

I have no idea what's going on with your books John, but unfortunately I can't find out either. Hopefully it's a strange hiccup.
==========================================
...and here's the comment I left:

911jason on 30 Jan 2010 at 2:29 am

I, for one, am glad that Amazon is "playing hardball" in the interest of it's customers and trying to prevent the greedy publishers from forcing a 50% price increase (from $10 up to $15) on a digital product that has zero materials cost. If I can buy a hardcover at Costco for $14.50, then I should be able to buy an electronic version for $10. The publisher creates a digital version of a book 1 time and can sell millions of copies of that file for no additional costs. Wake up publishers, you guys are sounding like the RIAA back when iTunes first opened. We didn't want CDs anymore back then, and we don't want hardcovers anymore now.

P.S. I realize not everyone wants e-books, I'm speaking from the perspective of those who do.


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## nabrum

Rasputina said:


> The thing that gets me is that Amazon is basically refusing to sell books they clearly have in stock in some sort temper tantrum. And I'm not even talking about ebooks. They have print books sitting in their distribution centers and are basically saying fine I'll take my toys and go home.


Grow up and look at what's happening. Amazon is fighting for your rights to pay less for the eBooks that the publishing monopoly wants you to pay. And the only thing in their arsenal is the publishers books - all of them. This isn't a temper tantrum as you suggest, it is an all out war.

As for the books in stock, if I remember correctly, Amazon (or any dealer) can return them and get their money back. So that hurts McMillan even more. Right now Amazon seem to be limiting this to 1 publisher vs all of them. So we'll see. I believe Amazon is doing the right thing. Otherwise how would you like to pay $15 for an eBook?


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## kwajkat

You know Oprah's publisher is Macmillan and we all know what a big Kindle fan Oprah is. Maybe we have some untapped clout!

Asborb Macmillan into the Kindle collective and be done with it!


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## anivyl

that is correct. while i am bemoaning the current inaccessibility of Robert Jordan books, it is only for the greater good. As I remember Anne Rice's discussion about how publishing houses are facing problems, also partly caused by returns of books in unimaginable amounts, Amazon's returns of books (considering how they are one of the world's largest online bookstore) will only harm MacMillian. 

I mean, yes, publishing consist alot more than just printing books on paper. but the cost of materials are less than producing on actual paper and this is something publishing houses need to consider when pricing ebooks. yes, the IPad will does allow some leeway into them playing price wars, but no one should be paying just 5-10 difference on ebooks vs dtb. if the difference margin is shorten, few people would buy ebooks then we are back at square one - where few people are buying books casually nowadays.

This is crazy, but go Amazon for protecting our interests as buyers. I understand how authors might feel about lesser royalties and so on, but I hope that they realise if there's lesser profit margin, more people might be enticed to buy the ebooks and thereby increasing sales, and therefore HIGHER income.


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## raven312

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Amazon saw this coming and was braced for it.  I highly doubt that any of this took them by surprise.  Look at their move a few weeks ago of offering a higher percentage to authors who want to sign with them and take a larger profit margin, etc (thus cutting out the middle man.)  It seems that they dropped the gauntlet then.  It's going to be interesting, for sure - and hopefully we the consumers will win.  I would not like to pay more for an ebook.  A good quarter of the ebooks I have read have editing errors that I have wont to see in a hardback edition.  Obviously, the publishers aren't putting that much energy into the formatting, so they shouldn't expect to get paid more than we're paying now.  That Apple appears to think that they can beat Amazon at one of their core strengths is a sign of arrogance, in my opinion.


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## 911jason

Just checked my wish list and 5 books have been removed... no big deal, but I sure wish it would show me what books they were!


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## raven312

One of mine has been removed.  Darned if I can remember what it was, either.


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## RiddleMeThis

Only one of the authors I read regularly was effected by this and that was Sherillyn Kenyon, who I know is a VERY large supporter of EBooks. 

Slightly irritated at myself because I was going to buy the one book I needed on my Kindle that I didn't have the other day and put it off...well now it's gone, but I am fairly certain it will DEFINITELY be back at some point.


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## Lyndyb

Thanks for sharing that e-mail, Jason911.  I've been thinking of backing up my books anyway and this is motivating me to learn how.  

The fear of having more publishers disappear from Amazon might actually result in a surge of sales as many of us hurry up and buy books we've been considering for fear that publisher will get pulled as well!!  

Does anyone know how much of the market Amazon book sales represent in general?  I bought the Kindle for several reasons, with the ease of downloading the books a major factor, but the legendary Amazon customer service and their lower e-book pricing also significant to me.  As Jason mentioned, if you can buy a new release/bestseller at Costco for $14.50 and often at Amazon for a similiarly low price (or WalMart, for that matter - at least since the pricing wars), then it's always seemed to me that if a publisher sells an e-book with no material costs for the same amount, they're pocketing a huge profit at our expense.  

What I don't know is whether the royalties paid to an author are based on $XX per copy sold or if they're paid on a percentage of actual book sale dollars.  So if an author is paid on the basis of actual book sale dollars, then why doesn't the publisher pay them a portion of the savings they realize in an e-book sale?  

I could be wrong, but it seems the publishers are clinging to the world as they've known it all these years and haven't yet figured out the e-books just can't be sold for the same price as the DTB's.


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## webhill

LuckyKelleyK said:


> Luckily only one of the books on my wish list was removed. It now says "this title is no longer available".


That happened to me too and I am really upset. I use the list as a way to keep track of titles of interest. Well, now I don't have that title any more. They should have at least left the name on there!!!


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## 911jason

I agree webhill, hopefully when the dispute is over the titles will reappear.


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## Leslie

Lyndyb said:


> What I don't know is whether the royalties paid to an author are based on $XX per copy sold or if they're paid on a percentage of actual book sale dollars. So if an author is paid on the basis of actual book sale dollars, then why doesn't the publisher pay them a portion of the savings they realize in an e-book sale?


In the traditional publishing model, an author is paid an advance, by the publisher. They are also paid royalties (in print books, this might be ~10%) which kicks in after the royalty and other expenses incurred by the author have been recouped. (Other expenses would be things specified in the contract; for example, there may be permission fees to use quotes of song lyrics).

The publisher prints the books and determines a suggested retail (list) price. Distributors, such as Amazon, buy the books wholesale from the publisher, at some negotiated rate, usually ~50% of the SRP. (This is why Borders can sell new bestsellers for a 40% discount; they are still making 10% on the sale).

So...publisher prices book at $30, sells to Amazon for $15. Author gets $1.50 per book. If the author received a $1500 advance, they'd start making money after 1000 books had sold.

Meanwhile, Amazon can price the book anyway they want. If they sell it for $18, they make $3 per book. If they sell it for $9.99, they are losing $5.01 per book -- which is what is happening. Because (according to an article published in the New York Times in June 200, Amazon is paying the publisher the same wholesale rate for print books and ebooks. It seems that Amazon has been willing to take a loss on Kindle books because 1) they have been trying to build up the Kindle market; and 2) sales (and profits) on print books have offset the loss on Kindle books.

I think we're getting to the tipping point. Ebooks are booming and so the ratio of ebook salesrint book sales is changing (probably in a way to be less profitable for having ebooks as loss leaders). I have long suspected that Amazon wanted to get to a point, saleswise, to renegotiate what they pay (wholesale) for ebooks. Or maybe they want to redefine the pricing/selling strategy completely, or even publishing -- many have suggested that that might be a goal for Amazon, too -- to become a publisher.

It's all very interesting and I hope that in the end, the benefits are there for us, the book buyers and readers.

L


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## drenee

I have about 20 that are on my shopping list that say currently not available.  
deb


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## Richard in W.Orange

I'm thinking the publishers in bed with Apple


Spoiler



(and doesn't this make apple just a bit slutty)


 are thinking iPad is the next big iPhone.

I think that's a big *oopsy*

Amazon is (to its own pocket loss) doing the 'right' kind of thing. They're saying we won't sell you if you play this game. And they know they're in the top 5 for almost every publisher.

Also is the book 'sold' when the copies go into Amazon Distribution (amazon pays the publisher when the books go into amazon warehouses) or when Amazon sells it to the end user. In either case, for the sake of the situation, Amazon is now "sitting on" a bunch of money it can't recover (for a time).

Hmmm


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## cc1013

Ugh...so frustrating!

I downloaded a sample of Sarah's Key by Tatiana de Rosnay earlier this week.  I ready the sample this morning and decided to buy it...but it's no longer available on Amazon.  It lists the publisher as St. Martin's Press.  I wonder if they are related to Macmillan.  I really wanted to read that book!


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## Someone Nameless

raven312 said:


> One of mine has been removed. Darned if I can remember what it was, either.


QUESTION: I have so many books on my Kindle, how would I know if one has been removed? I don't think I'd have a clue right off unless it was something I was currently reading.


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## Leslie

Richard in W.Orange said:


> Also is the book 'sold' when the copies go into Amazon Distribution (amazon pays the publisher when the books go into amazon warehouses) or when Amazon sells it to the end user. In either case, for the sake of the situation, Amazon is now "sitting on" a bunch of money it can't recover (for a time).
> 
> Hmmm


I believe the book is sold when Amazon buys it from the publisher. However, there is also a very complicated return system (which I don't completely understand). I read a funny article once that says a book spends more of its time on a truck being shipped from here to there than it does being read. Anyway, when Amazon buys the book, it counts as a sale. They can return the book, but there is also a secondary distribution market where other retailers can buy the book for sale -- this is where Costco, BJs, WalMart, etc. get their books which is why they can sell them for $8.99.

The article I heard/read was on NPR a while ago. The whole system evolved in the 30s, during the depression, as a way to get books out there to people, despite the fact that everyone was broke. I wish I could remember more details and sorry for not being clearer. The gist of the NPR article was that the distribution system is totally outdated for the way books are sold today.

L


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## Xopher

Something that I think goes into this feud is Amazon trying to dictate their wholesale price. With the announcement of the 70% royalty with the $9.99 price restriction, this would mean paying out $7 for each ebook sold ($6.99). If Amazon is currently paying $15 for each ebook, it means cutting the publisher's wholesale price in half.

I believe that authors are also wanting a larger piece of the digital pie as well. With the 70% royalty announcement, I'm sure authors look at that and see the publisher taking a bigger chunk of the end price (even though it really is less). So, if an author were making 10% ($1.50 for each ebook sold), they would drop down to $.70 for each. The royalty would have to go up to 21.5% to make up the difference. I'm sure publishers will be feeling the squeeze from both sides very soon (if not already).

I do think publishers need to take a look at the market and re-evaluate the digital marketplace. Taking the DTB philosophy to the digital side is not going to work for very much longer.


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## Leslie

Kindle Gracie said:


> QUESTION: I have so many books on my Kindle, how would I know if one has been removed? I don't think I'd have a clue right off unless it was something I was currently reading.


As someone posted in a prior message, it does not appear that Amazon is removing books that you have purchased. What people are saying is that books on their wishlists have disappeared, and cc1013 had a sample of a book that is now not available for purchase. (Coincidentally, I have that same sample too, but haven't had a chance to read it. I guess I'll wait, now, so I won't be tempted and then annoyed that I can't buy the book.)

L


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## luvmy4brats

Kindle Gracie said:


> QUESTION: I have so many books on my Kindle, how would I know if one has been removed? I don't think I'd have a clue right off unless it was something I was currently reading.


After the Orwell incident, Amazon isn't going to pull books off of Kindles. It may get removed from the wish list, but that's because they're no longer selling it.

Books have been pulled before for one reason or another. I still have those in my archives and can download them whenever I want. I haven't lost access to my copy just because they're not selling it anymore. It only hurts the people who had plans to buy it.

I personally think this is a good move on Amazon's part. They're taking a stand.


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## cc1013

I agree that Amazon has to take a stand.  I hope it benefits all of us.  In the meantime though, if there is a specific book from this publisher that someone must have, where is the easiest place for us to obtain it?  Fictionwise?  I'd still be hesitant to purchase there because their prices seem very high, but it's still good information to have.


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## chocochibi

cc1013 said:


> I downloaded a sample of Sarah's Key by Tatiana de Rosnay earlier this week. I ready the sample this morning and decided to buy it...but it's no longer available on Amazon. It lists the publisher as St. Martin's Press. I wonder if they are related to Macmillan. I really wanted to read that book!


St. Martins Press (which also includes the hugely popular Stephanie Plum books) is part of Macmillan, so are all of Tor books. If you go to http://us.macmillan.com
you can hover over the publishers tab at the top, and it shows all their publishers. It's a good sized list.


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## Leslie

cc1013 said:


> I agree that Amazon has to take a stand. I hope it benefits all of us. In the meantime though, if there is a specific book from this publisher that someone must have, where is the easiest place for us to obtain it? Fictionwise? I'd still be hesitant to purchase there because their prices seem very high, but it's still good information to have.


Using Sarah's Key as an example, it doesn't look like you can get it anywhere right now in a format that will work on your Kindle.

http://www.inkmesh.com/ebooks/sarahs-key-de-rosnay-tatiana-ebook/?qs=sarah's+key

Mobipocket has a free reader that you can download from their site. You could do that, then buy the book in secure Mobipocket format and read it on your laptop. But for your Kindle, it looks like you are out of luck at the present moment.

L


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## cc1013

chocochibi said:


> St. Martins Press (which also includes the hugely popular Stephanie Plum books) is part of Macmillan, so are all of Tor books. If you go to http://us.macmillan.com
> you can hover over the publishers tab at the top, and it shows all their publishers. It's a good sized list.


Very disappointing. That seems to be a huge list. Thanks for providing the detail. Hopefully Amazon resolves the issue soon. The Stephanie Plum books still seem to be available as they list Scribner as the publisher. I just requested Sarah's Key from the library, so no harm no foul. I just hate to see our selections decrease. Seeing this and then finding out that the Nook can handle library books through Overdrive may force me to consider a Nook in the future (but I love my Kindle ).


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## chocochibi

Love my Kindle too, but I also wish we could borrow library books through Overdrive with them. Of course then we wouldn't be affected by Amazon's dispute with Macmillan, bexause then we could hopefully just get the books from the library. Our library has only been getting ebooks since October, but they already have close to a hundred titles, so I'm sure they'll end up with a good collection. Of course it helps that my partner is the librarian responsible for buying ebooks for the whole library system   

He did say though that ebooks for use through Overdrive are incredibly expensive for the library to buy.


----------



## hsuthard

Can someone explain to me why Amazon (and possibly libraries) pay the same price to publishers for ebooks as they do for DTB's? That seems ridiculous to me.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I think it seems ridiculous to Amazon too. . . .and is precisely the point of this argument. 

That said, remember that printing and shipping (required for paper books but not ebooks) are but a small part of the total cost of producing a book.


----------



## chocochibi

I don't know the reason, but I do know that libraries pay a LOT more for an ebook than for a DTB. That's why many libraries only have one copy of an ebook available to be checked out at a time.


----------



## Cheryll1

I was just at Amazon and noticed that the Kindle pre-order of Impact by Douglas Preston is no longer listed, and he is a listed author on Macmillan.  I hope Amazon gets this resolved soon as Preston is one of my favorite authors for vacation reading.


----------



## drenee

Evanovich must have had two different publishers at some point because a whole lot of her books are currently not available.  The Plum series is St. Martin's Press, which is MacMillan.
deb


----------



## Richard in W.Orange

Xopher said:


> Something that I think goes into this feud is Amazon trying to dictate their wholesale price. With the announcement of the 70% royalty with the $9.99 price restriction, this would mean paying out $7 for each ebook sold ($6.99). If Amazon is currently paying $15 for each ebook, it means cutting the publisher's wholesale price in half.
> 
> I believe that authors are also wanting a larger piece of the digital pie as well. With the 70% royalty announcement, I'm sure authors look at that and see the publisher taking a bigger chunk of the end price (even though it really is less). So, if an author were making 10% ($1.50 for each ebook sold), they would drop down to $.70 for each. The royalty would have to go up to 21.5% to make up the difference. I'm sure publishers will be feeling the squeeze from both sides very soon (if not already).
> 
> I do think publishers need to take a look at the market and re-evaluate the digital marketplace. Taking the DTB philosophy to the digital side is not going to work for very much longer.


This is how the market works, the buyer (Amazon) knows what it wants to pay (in this case they have the best pulse of what the e-reading public will spend on a book) and so they tell the seller (publisher) what that number is.

In my world this is very common. Xerox vendor one comes in with a price at 389/month 36mo FMV lease (you don't need all the numbers to understand this) I wanted pricing around 350 (so they aren't far away) Xerox vendor two (who has 'great' experience with me) comes in at 346/mo 36mo FMV and well, I got what I wanted. I KNOW that vendor 2 is making 'almost' nothing on the sale, but at the same time, in this economy the buyer holds the cards. I need to buy X and I won't pay more than Y so if you can't get close...

To this, or for confirmation ... Ask ann how many hoops the out of town Car Dealer who sold me the current car went though to get to my number. I don't care if you loose money, someone wants to sell a car and I am the one here buying one! (and no one is going to "loose" consistently -- they may not make 'much' but they made the sale so they made "something".)

IF MacMillian isn't selling books they aren't making money, they need to look at how they are doing it, because (I think) Amazon knows that we aren't as a group going to spend 15 bucks and they can probably give any publisher statistics on sold books and the price levels.


----------



## Leslie

hsuthard said:


> Can someone explain to me why Amazon (and possibly libraries) pay the same price to publishers for ebooks as they do for DTB's? That seems ridiculous to me.


"Because that's the way we've always done it"?

I suspect a publisher would argue that the biggest expenses of a book are the fixed costs (editing, manuscript preparation, marketing, etc.) and the variable costs (printing, distribution) are relatively small. Thus, the fixed costs should be spread out over all versions of a book that are sold, which is why ebooks and print cost the same to the wholesale purchaser.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this argument, but the MBA part of my brain knows that this is how the VP for Accounting would spin it.

L


----------



## BTackitt

Richard in W.Orange said:


> To this, or for confirmation ... Ask ann how many hoops the out of town Car Dealer who sold me the current car went though to get to my number. I don't care if you loose money, someone wants to sell a car and I am the one here buying one! (and no one is going to "loose" consistently -- they may not make 'much' but they made the sale so they made "something".)


Richard this is a great example..
DH and I just had to do basically the same thing.. and yep.. none of the in-town dealers were willing to meet our price on any type of car except junk heaps, so we drive 45 minutes away to another dealer, got a better car (Cadillac DeVille in pristine condition) and they not only met OUR price, they threw in a 2 yr bumper to bumper warranty all parts everything covered on a SEVEN year old car. (probably helped that I had a print out in hand of other cars to look at from other dealerships)

I do worry about the state of MacM e-textbooks though... weren't they one of the publishing houses working with Amazon? As a reader, I can find other books to read, as a student, I have to use the texts decided on by my instructors.


----------



## tlrowley

It would be wrong to pin your hopes (especially for Macmillan) on lending libraries and your Sony/nook.



NYTimes said:


> As digital collections grow, Mr. Sargent said he feared a world in which "pretty soon you're not paying for anything." Partly because of such concerns, Macmillan does not allow its e-books to be offered in public libraries.


(Mr. Sargent is the CEO of Macmillan)

Personally, I feel Macmillan would be very, very happy for ebooks to die a painful death, and would be happy to speed-up this death by setting an unrealistic price and then saying "look - no one buys ebooks"

Go, go, Amazon.

Tracey


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> I suspect a publisher would argue that the biggest expenses of a book are the fixed costs (editing, manuscript preparation, marketing, etc.) and the variable costs (printing, distribution) are relatively small. Thus, the fixed costs should be spread out over all versions of a book that are sold, which is why ebooks and print cost the same to the wholesale purchaser.


Publishers typically consign paper books to vendors permitting the book store to return unsold copies. With eBooks they're spared the cost of unsold returns. It seems to me that assigning a portion of that cost to eBooks is as unreasonable as charging the same price for a paperback and hardcover.


----------



## Sewnmachine

My head is spinning trying to figure out this ebook world. But the one thing for certain that I have decided is to ..... wait and see. There will be no Kindle in my near future. After having read the article that was linked to (OReilly ?) in another thread, I really do think now that the Amazon Kindle in its current condition may now be on some sort of life support.

Problem is I have $275 in gift certificates burning a hole in my digital wallet. I wanted to want a Kindle soooooo bad. But right now it's too fraught with problems, and there will probably be many changes/improvements coming in the near future. So, my plan is to sit tight on my money right now....... and when my kids come through again with my "*MOTHER"S DAY ENTITLEMENTS"* I'll have even more money to play with and hopefully Amazon will have come out with a new open source ereader that is more feature rich. Maybe color? Folders?

If they can not or will not improve the product model they now have, and the publishing issues they now have, I will then have no choice but to order an IPad or the 25+ tarot decks I have on my wish list! And right now those Tarot decks are lookin pretty darn good.


----------



## jason10mm

Let's not be overly dramatic. Clearly Apple has come to the agreement that $15 is the "new" e-book price. So worst case we just start paying that for new releases. Hardly the death knell for the Kindle or anything.


----------



## drenee

I agree, jason10mm, I don't see the Kindle or any ereader dying out in the near future.  Ereaders have been around for a long time.  So I don't get to purchase a certain book from Amazon right now.  I don't see that as something that will continue indefinitely.  These issues will be worked out.  In the meantime I can read the 400-plus books I have in my TBR list, and continue to purchase books from Amazon that are available to me at the moment.  
deb


----------



## luvmy4brats

drenee said:


> I agree, jason10mm, I don't see the Kindle or any ereader dying out in the near future. Ereaders have been around for a long time. So I don't get to purchase a certain book from Amazon right now. I don't see that as something that will continue indefinitely. These issues will be worked out. In the meantime I can read the 400-plus books I have in my TBR list, and continue to purchase books from Amazon that are available to me at the moment.
> deb


I totally agree with this.


----------



## Leslie

Sewnmachine said:


> My head is spinning trying to figure out this ebook world. But the one thing for certain that I have decided is to ..... wait and see. There will be no Kindle in my near future. After having read the article that was linked to (OReilly ?) in another thread, I really do think now that the Amazon Kindle in its current condition may now be on some sort of life support.


O'Reilly is a publisher so of course he wants you to think the Kindle is dying. As someone else said earlier in this thread, I think the big publishers all wish/hope/dream that ebooks will go away and we'll all go back to reading expensive hardbacks.

Ain't gonna happen.

Sewnmachine, do your patriotic duty to prove the publishers wrong and buy a Kindle now. If you wait for color you'll be waiting for years. The device is not "fraught with problems." It is designed to do primarily one thing: be an ereader, and it does it very, very well. If that's what you want, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

If, on the other hand, you want some sort of mini-computer/netbook/multifunction device, then the Kindle is probably not for you.

L


----------



## ElaineOK

Go Amazon!

Personally, I think the major publishing houses are on serious life support already.  Ebooks are here, they aren't going away; and Amazon has pretty successfully set a $9.99 price point.  

The publishers will fall in line or, more likely, they will fight their way into the grave with authors defecting to other marketing and sales engines (which is what a publishing house really is) that are better equipped for a changing marketplace.

OTOH, I've been waiting to buy a book until I am ready to read beyond the sample RIGHT THEN.  I may have to move that up a little.  Hmmmm.

Elaine
Norman, Oklahoma


----------



## mamacate

I thought this post from an author's perspective (not a blog I read, but linked by a friend on FB) is a brilliant summary of the issue. I like her recommendations too.

http://www.carolynjewel.com/weblog/2010/01/holy-moly-its-fight.shtml

Cate


----------



## Malweth

I have a few thoughts on the higher book prices and Publisher wars.

Firstly, Amazon is standing up for consumer rights. I understand there are a number of writers here, but most of us are readers. If Amazon is willing to go to this much effort (and risk) because prices should be lower due to savings from logistic costs, I support them fully.

Secondly, I am interested in the outcome of this fight regarding "e-paperback" pricing rather than that of new-releases. I don't want to see Macmillan give in to new-release pricing just to see e-book prices stay at $9.99 for years. I'm a big fan of books that drop to $3-7 after paperbacks have been released!


----------



## artsandhistoryfan

I added a blog entry about this and how I feel it all came about.

Added info from a few links including that video'd interview between Mossberg and Jobs which was so telling about how Jobs feels he is making Amazon bend to his will on pricing. Watch his smile when he tells Mossberg that the Amazon pricing and his will be the same.

http://bit.ly/kwmacm


----------



## Jeff

Malweth said:


> Firstly, Amazon is standing up for consumer rights. I understand there are a number of writers here, but most of us are readers. If Amazon is willing to go to this much effort (and risk) because prices should be lower due to savings from logistic costs, I support them fully.


I would be very surprised if all the writers here didn't fully support Amazon.


----------



## VictoriaP

Sewnmachine said:


> After having read the article that was linked to (OReilly ?) in another thread, I really do think now that the Amazon Kindle in its current condition may now be on some sort of life support.


Anyone who understands how corporations negotiate knows full well that this is utter nonsense. If the Kindle isn't for you, that's completely fine, but if you're going to dismiss it because you think it's going to die immediately (or even within the next two years), you're going to miss a lot of fun reading ebooks. Pissing matches between large businesses is a way of life, not an anomaly. It will be over with in a matter of days to weeks, and meanwhile the rest of the business continues working.



mamacate said:


> I thought this post from an author's perspective (not a blog I read, but linked by a friend on FB) is a brilliant summary of the issue. I like her recommendations too.
> 
> http://www.carolynjewel.com/weblog/2010/01/holy-moly-its-fight.shtml
> 
> Cate


Best written summary of the situation I've seen yet, and yes, the recommendations are right on target.



artsandhistoryfan said:


> I added a blog entry about this and how I feel it all came about.
> 
> Added info from a few links including that video'd interview between Mossberg and Jobs which was so telling about how Jobs feels he is making Amazon bend to his will on pricing. Watch his smile when he tells Mossberg that the Amazon pricing and his will be the same.
> 
> http://bit.ly/kwmacm


And oh, BTW--Mr. Jobs? You just lost two iPads you'd sold. Congratulations! I'm willing to bet too that a number of us are going to be thinking along the same lines. That cool expensive TOY that we were planning on buying--well, I had no plans for it as an e-reader, because the Kindle is better--but like with the Kindle, we generally buy pretty early versions of this stuff. Yeah, no longer interested. Thanks for coming to the party, don't let the door hit you in the


Spoiler



ass


 on the way out. We're not willing to buy Apple's party line on this one.


----------



## ladyvolz

So write MacMillan and tell them how you feel about their stance on pricing.... and dictating to retailers.  Are they now going to tell Walmart, Target, Kroger/Ralphs, Books-a-Million, Costco and others that they CANNOT price their HB books less than $15?

[email protected]


----------



## rho

RiddleMeThis said:


> Only one of the authors I read regularly was effected by this and that was Sherillyn Kenyon, who I know is a VERY large supporter of EBooks.
> 
> Slightly irritated at myself because I was going to buy the one book I needed on my Kindle that I didn't have the other day and put it off...well now it's gone, but I am fairly certain it will DEFINITELY be back at some point.


I think the 2 books removed from my wish list were hers too - I am glad Amazon is taking a stand with this issue but selfishly I wish it was authors I didn't like  I think I will drop a note on her facebook page about this... maybe if we all write our favorite authors that are effected (affected? I get those confused) by this it could make a difference...

One other issue that I have had a problem with lately is books that have the e-book version costing more than the paperback version .... I would actually be ok if it were the same price -- well maybe not *totally *ok with it because is doesn't cost the publisher as much to publish an ebook vs a paperback but for now I guess I will be waiting for those books to be in the library because I won't buy them in paperback either - it hurts to read books now for me (the arm issues) and I won't pay for pain - but I am at the library once a week for knitting group so I will go back to using them more I guess. So those publishers have lost me as both an ebook and paperback sale


----------



## Flechette

hmm

I definitely support Amazon, that said - I do think the price for a new e-book (one that is also out in hardback) could stand to be about $2 higher,  $11.99 instead of $9.99.  When I bought hardbacks, I rarely paid more that $15.50 with discounts.  So a $12ish price is my break point for a single e-book.

I still would like to know why the publishers aren't up in arms about Monthly book clubs.  BotMC2 offers books @ $9.99 including shipping & handling - why aren't they targeted as well?  And yes - BotMC2 did also include new releases--- admittedly they have a very small selection compared to Amazon but still -  I wonder if Amazon could claim discrimination?


----------



## Anju 

Well just panicked and bought 4 books that I had samples of, one more I sure wish I could afford but think my GC balance is zero or awfully close to it    One book I did want, The Street of a Thousand Blossoms is no longer available on kindle and that was the one I wanted the most, oh well.  I think I have enough to hold me for awhile now anyway.  The rest I'll buy from indie authors, love them more than most other authors anyway!  Time to re-read Al Past, Jeff Hepple, Ricky Sides, Ed Patterson, Michael Hicks, etc., etc., etc.

All my books are on the computer, but guess I better make sure they are all for the current kindle    Sure don't want Amazon to remove from Archives!


----------



## drenee

Dona, I have Street of a Thousand Blossoms in HB.  It is a WONDERFUL book.  
I think I paid 4.99 for it.  Can't beat that price in any format.  If it doesn't become 
available let me know, I'll send you the HB.
deb


----------



## FSkornia

Does anyone remember a couple of years ago, Apple was faced with the same issue regarding their pricing of songs on iTunes?  I think they pulled an entire recording company (I believe it was something in the Universal family) from their listings, or threatened to if the company refused to back down about raising the 99 cent cost.  It was shortly afterwards that Apple also started offering the DRM-free $1.29 songs - there had to be some sort of connection there.

Even more recently we saw the showdown between Fox and Time-Warner regarding the cost that Time-Warner pays per subscriber.  Now in this case I think that the interests were purely corporate, with no concern for the consumer - but in the end it was the consumer that was going to lose on either side. They were going to lose all Fox networks, or they were going to see their cable bill rise. Unfortunately since Time-Warner backed down I have a feeling we'll see all the major networks press their advantage this year and we'll probably see a possible $20-$30 rise in cable bills.

I believe that even Amazon does not have the consumer completely in their minds in this incident.  They are looking ahead to the landscape of ebook selling for the future and are trying to pave their own road into that landscape.  Remember some of the news that was blared at us last year. Dan Brown's book sold more electronic copies on its first day then paper copies (though the $18 price difference helped considerably with that).  Amazon sold more ebooks on Christmas day than paper books (and we did not see numbers from Sony or BN which surely saw a good number of sales on their associated ereaders).  2009 was the year that ebooks really started catching on, but they still remain a mere fraction of book sales.  Yet, if I remember correctly, ebook sales saw growth last year, whereas the overall book sales continued their decline.  Both publishers and vendors are concerned about where this is going. Publishers just see a further erosion in their profits. Yet as we have examined before the publishing industry is still caught in an outdated business model that seems arcane even by 20th century standards.  If they started a gradual shift towards improved electronic publishing matching the gradual overall increase in electronic readership - they may have to trim off fat to do so, but it'll leave them leaner and more agile, just the sort of thing that I believe companies will need to be in the 21st century.


----------



## Leslie

mamacate said:


> I thought this post from an author's perspective (not a blog I read, but linked by a friend on FB) is a brilliant summary of the issue. I like her recommendations too.
> 
> http://www.carolynjewel.com/weblog/2010/01/holy-moly-its-fight.shtml
> 
> Cate


Great summary. Thanks for posting that link.

L


----------



## ElaineOK

I've never read a Carolyn Jewel book.  Don't even know what she rights.  Doesn't matter.  That WILL change.

Elaine 
Norman, Oklahoma


----------



## VictoriaP

Flechette said:


> hmm
> 
> I definitely support Amazon, that said - I do think the price for a new e-book (one that is also out in hardback) could stand to be about $2 higher, $11.99 instead of $9.99. When I bought hardbacks, I rarely paid more that $15.50 with discounts. So a $12ish price is my break point for a single e-book.
> 
> I still would like to know why the publishers aren't up in arms about Monthly book clubs. BotMC2 offers books @ $9.99 including shipping & handling - why aren't they targeted as well? And yes - BotMC2 did also include new releases--- admittedly they have a very small selection compared to Amazon but still - I wonder if Amazon could claim discrimination?


Regarding the $9.99 price point--it's pretty well documented over long periods of time that consumers are more likely to buy when you break certain thresholds--in real estate, for example, I've often be told that those thresholds occur at the $x25,000/$x50,000/$x75,000/$x00,000 marks. In retail, it's similar--$9.99 just plain sells more copies than $10. Never mind that the dollar amounts involved are small, people psychologically look at "under $10" and are more inclined to buy.

And the publishers don't care about monthly book clubs because the volumes involved are way smaller than what's at stake with e-books.


----------



## Leslie

ElaineOK said:


> I've never read a Carolyn Jewel book. Don't even know what she rights. Doesn't matter. That WILL change.
> 
> Elaine
> Norman, Oklahoma


There you go. Historical and paranormal romance. One of them is published by St. Martin's, so it would appear that she has a dog in the fight.

http://www.carolynjewel.com/books/books.php

L


----------



## Leslie

VictoriaP said:


> And the publishers don't care about monthly book clubs because the volumes involved are way smaller than what's at stake with e-books.


Don't they publish special versions for book clubs? I remember way back when, trying to sell old books to used bookstores, they'd never take the book club editions.

I am actually amazed that book clubs even still exist.

L


----------



## FSkornia

VictoriaP said:


> Regarding the $9.99 price point--it's pretty well documented over long periods of time that consumers are more likely to buy when you break certain thresholds--in real estate, for example, I've often be told that those thresholds occur at the $x25,000/$x50,000/$x75,000/$x00,000 marks. In retail, it's similar--$9.99 just plain sells more copies than $10. Never mind that the dollar amounts involved are small, people psychologically look at "under $10" and are more inclined to buy.
> 
> And the publishers don't care about monthly book clubs because the volumes involved are way smaller than what's at stake with e-books.


It's funny that the difference of 1 cent ($10 to $9.99) makes a big deal, but it does. Think about all the times you go and buy gas at a gas station. Take a look at the prices, they're always X.XX and _9/10ths_ Essentially you're paying a full cent more than the listed price, but everyone ignores that 9/10 part when looking at the price. It's a minimal amount, but psychologically it means a lot.


----------



## mcl

You know, I don't care who initiated this.

But I'll say this:  If those books come back at a higher price, I won't be buying them.  Period.  I'll go back to buying reasonably-priced used paperbacks, or go to a library.  I'm tired of everyone playing the "how much can we gouge the consumer for 1MB of data that has practically zero production or distribution cost" game.  I was willing to go along and pay $9.99 because that's what the paperbacks sell for.  I'll not pay more.  I already have a hard time justifying paying that price for something I can own and hold in my hand.  I refuse to pay more than that for a license to something I don't own while I still have the option of owning (and reselling) a physical copy.


----------



## KayakerNC

Leslie said:


> Using Sarah's Key as an example, it doesn't look like you can get it anywhere right now in a format that will work on your Kindle.
> Mobipocket has a free reader that you can download from their site. You could do that, then buy the book in secure Mobipocket format and read it on your laptop. But for your Kindle, it looks like you are out of luck at the present moment.
> L


But.....if you buy the book in the Mobi format (Kindle reads Mobi), you can just drag it to your Kindle Documents Folder from the Mobi Folder. 
Easy.


----------



## Anju 

Leslie said:


> Don't they publish special versions for book clubs? I remember way back when, trying to sell old books to used bookstores, they'd never take the book club editions.
> 
> I am actually amazed that book clubs even still exist.
> 
> L


Lots of book clubs here, some with whatever books and some with the same book. The "leader/founder" of the book club I go to is very very anti-kindle, so far 3 of the 10 members have kindles thanks to me LOL LOL


----------



## Jeff

KayakerNC said:


> But.....if you buy the book in the Mobi format (Kindle reads Mobi), you can just drag it to your Kindle Documents Folder from the Mobi Folder.
> Easy.


Unless something has changed recently, I don't think that works with Mobipocket books that have DRM encryption.


----------



## Andra

KayakerNC said:


> But.....if you buy the book in the Mobi format (Kindle reads Mobi), you can just drag it to your Kindle Documents Folder from the Mobi Folder.
> Easy.


I don't think Kindle reads the DRM Mobi files...


----------



## Sewnmachine

VictoriaP said:


> Anyone who understands how corporations negotiate knows full well that this is utter nonsense. If the Kindle isn't for you, that's completely fine, but if you're going to dismiss it because you think it's going to die immediately (or even within the next two years), you're going to miss a lot of fun reading ebooks. Pissing matches between large businesses is a way of life, not an anomaly. It will be over with in a matter of days to weeks, and meanwhile the rest of the business continues working.
> 
> Best written summary of the situation I've seen yet, and yes, the recommendations are right on target.
> 
> And oh, BTW--Mr. Jobs? You just lost two iPads you'd sold. Congratulations! I'm willing to bet too that a number of us are going to be thinking along the same lines. That cool expensive TOY that we were planning on buying--well, I had no plans for it as an e-reader, because the Kindle is better--but like with the Kindle, we generally buy pretty early versions of this stuff. Yeah, no longer interested. Thanks for coming to the party, don't let the door hit you in the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ass
> 
> 
> on the way out. We're not willing to buy Apple's party line on this one.


No, no - on the contrary - I don't think ereaders are going to die. In fact just the opposite. I firmly believe ereaders are going to be the future of reading. But right now I think the Amazon/Kindle/iPad/Nook is in such a state of flux that it just makes sense for me to wait and see where the dust settles so I can make the best possible choice. From my newbie perspective I do think the Kindle in it's current form needs lots of changes. And no, I don't think it should be turned into a mini netbook. But for me, not having color is an enormous draw back. I would like to read my books on the e-ink, but read magazines in full color. Without color, that also leaves out almost virtually all childrens books that I would like to read to my grandson.

I would also want an ereader that would allow me to buy ebooks from anywhere and everywhere on the internet and not have to re-format because of proprietary constraints. I don't know if there are any e-readers that allow this right now. Although the Barnes and Noble Nook seemed a little bit more inclusive. They even have the capability to be loaned out, a feature I'm not sure the Kindle has. But like I said, I still don't know enough about this whole genre to even make intelligent choices. So, if I have drawn any blatently wrong conclusions, just chalk it up to being new, confused, and inundated with so much information.

So, I will keep reading this Kindle Board to stay abreast of new developments. In the meantime I will continue to work my way through the stacks of tomes on my bookshelves. Hopefully by the end of the year I will have one more new fangled gadget - but for right now I'm just not willing to commit to Kindle - yet.


----------



## Leslie

KayakerNC said:


> But.....if you buy the book in the Mobi format (Kindle reads Mobi), you can just drag it to your Kindle Documents Folder from the Mobi Folder.
> Easy.


Not if it is secure Mobipocket format, which is what they are selling.

L


----------



## Leslie

Anju No. 469 said:


> Lots of book clubs here, some with whatever books and some with the same book. The "leader/founder" of the book club I go to is very very anti-kindle, so far 3 of the 10 members have kindles thanks to me LOL LOL


Dona, I meant the subscription book clubs by mail, like Book of the Month Club and so on (The History Book Club, The Mystery Book Club, etc)....not book clubs for readers that get together and discuss books. Sorry for the confusion!

L


----------



## drenee

Thank you for clarifying that, Leslie.  I was a bit confused also.  I hadn't even thought about those book clubs.
deb


----------



## LisaW.

Go Amazon!!!

I'm totally behind Amazon in this case. While there are many publishers who believe that ebooks should be priced at a lower price because there is no shipping/packaging/printing costs associated with an ebook, others (like Macmillan), want to price them higher and make a huge profit. While I'm frustrated with the situation, the books will eventually be back on amazon when an agreement is reached - I just hope that amazon plays hardball and sticks to their guns. Regardless of the hardback vs. digital pricing, Macmillan wants to price their $6.99 paperback books at over $10 for the digital edition.

I had a great local library that gets most, if not all, of the Macmillan authors that I usually buy; so I'll just read these books from the library, or buy them secondhand. And if the prices come back more expensive, I'll just boycott new Macmillan books altogether. I do feel bad for the authors though, because they have no say in pricing. While some of my favorite Macmillan authors are bestselling authors, I love others that aren't as popular, and they're the ones who will suffer the most over this.

Wouldn't it be nice if Macmillan booted out the current CEO and got someone who was more forward-thinking?


----------



## Leslie

Sewnmachine said:


> No, no - on the contrary - I don't think ereaders are going to die. In fact just the opposite. I firmly believe ereaders are going to be the future of reading. But right now I think the Amazon/Kindle/iPad/Nook is in such a state of flux that it just makes sense for me to wait and see where the dust settles so I can make the best possible choice.


In my experience in life, what I buy today is superseded by something tomorrow. It always happens. I am actually amazed that the Kindle has been as "stable" as it has been for as long as it has been. I don't see this state of flux you are talking about.



> From my newbie perspective I do think the Kindle in it's current form needs lots of changes. And no, I don't think it should be turned into a mini netbook. But for me, not having color is an enormous draw back. I would like to read my books on the e-ink, but read magazines in full color. Without color, that also leaves out almost virtually all childrens books that I would like to read to my grandson.


I don't know how old your grandson is, but if you are reading picture books to him -- well, if it were me, that is definitely a situation for a paper book. I loved reading books to my children and we'd talk about the pictures, run our fingers over them, sound out words by pointing to them. For me, that's a paper experience, not any sort of ereader device, color or not.

If you are reading chapter books (we read a lot of those to our kids, too) then the pictures and colors are a moot point, IMHO.



> I would also want an ereader that would allow me to buy ebooks from anywhere and everywhere on the internet and not have to re-format because of proprietary constraints. I don't know if there are any e-readers that allow this right now. Although the Barnes and Noble Nook seemed a little bit more inclusive. They even have the capability to be loaned out, a feature I'm not sure the Kindle has. But like I said, I still don't know enough about this whole genre to even make intelligent choices. So, if I have drawn any blatently wrong conclusions, just chalk it up to being new, confused, and inundated with so much information.


I just went through two pages of my homescreen and found I have:

Books purchased from Amazon: 4
Books purchased from other sources: 8 (these all came in prc format so I just emailed them to my Kindle, no conversion needed)
Samples (from Amazon): 4
Various documents that I emailed to myself: 4

So I am getting materials from places other than Amazon and easily loading them onto my Kindle without the need for conversion or even the USB cable. Just a little bit of real world info for you.

L


----------



## teiresias

I just think it's highly annoying that in every other market Apple has been the one bringing down prices. Music and if they had their way, television (since signs point to them wanting to have had a TV content deal done for the iPad announcement) as the cases in point.

But when it comes to books Mr. Steve "No one reads anymore" Jobs finds it perfectly alright to push up the prices so long as it gets him a stranglehold on the content deals. A man who I doubt has read a novel since he was out of high school is pissing all over people that just happen to like content that he finds boring. Screw him.


----------



## Rasputina

It seems that the issue that is making people outraged is that Apple is offering publishers the right to set their own prices and give them 70% of the sales price. This happens to be the standard policy and pricing structure for everything sold in the itunes app store. It's clearly stated on the developer contract.


----------



## VictoriaP

Sewnmachine said:


> No, no - on the contrary - I don't think ereaders are going to die. In fact just the opposite. I firmly believe ereaders are going to be the future of reading. But right now I think the Amazon/Kindle/iPad/Nook is in such a state of flux that it just makes sense for me to wait and see where the dust settles so I can make the best possible choice. From my newbie perspective I do think the Kindle in it's current form needs lots of changes. And no, I don't think it should be turned into a mini netbook. But for me, not having color is an enormous draw back. I would like to read my books on the e-ink, but read magazines in full color. Without color, that also leaves out almost virtually all childrens books that I would like to read to my grandson.
> 
> I would also want an ereader that would allow me to buy ebooks from anywhere and everywhere on the internet and not have to re-format because of proprietary constraints. I don't know if there are any e-readers that allow this right now. Although the Barnes and Noble Nook seemed a little bit more inclusive. They even have the capability to be loaned out, a feature I'm not sure the Kindle has. But like I said, I still don't know enough about this whole genre to even make intelligent choices. So, if I have drawn any blatently wrong conclusions, just chalk it up to being new, confused, and inundated with so much information.
> 
> So, I will keep reading this Kindle Board to stay abreast of new developments. In the meantime I will continue to work my way through the stacks of tomes on my bookshelves. Hopefully by the end of the year I will have one more new fangled gadget - but for right now I'm just not willing to commit to Kindle - yet.


Unfortunately, the things you're looking for probably won't be out by the end of the year. The technology for color e-ink still isn't quite there yet.  Indeed, that's something that will revolutionize the e-reader industry and take e-readers more into the mainstream.

As for the DRM issue--this was a situation that took YEARS to resolve in the music industry. Sadly, it will likely take years in e-books as well; the publishing industry is even more backwards than the recording studios were. You're correct in that there are no e-readers on the market at this time that read all formats, and none of the ones currently on the horizon has announced that functionality either--as it's a big deal, one would think that if such a thing was in the works, we'd hear about it.

FYI on the lending feature on the Nook: That feature sounded terrific on the day it was announced. Looking closer, it turned out to be not much of anything at all. Like Text To Speech, the publishers have to enable the feature for it to work, and many have not yet agreed to do so. You're limited to lending a book for a total of 14 days (during which time you have no access to that book), and you may only do it once. Realistically, with those limitations, it's not much of a feature at all. Given the way publishers like MacMillan are behaving, I think you can assume it's going to be a while before such a thing is common.

All of which is to say, e-readers and e-books are still in their infancy as a technology, and as you can see, yes, there's a lot of kinks to be worked out before they're truly mainstream. "Seeing where the dust settles" is probably a good way of describing what most consumers should do at this point.



teiresias said:


> I just think it's highly annoying that in every other market Apple has been the one bringing down prices. Music and if they had their way, television (since signs point to them wanting to have had a TV content deal done for the iPad announcement) as the cases in point.
> 
> But when it comes to books Mr. Steve "No one reads anymore" Jobs finds it perfectly alright to push up the prices so long as it gets him a stranglehold on the content deals.


LOL--just had this argument in copious detail with my husband (Apple fanatic and former employee). I've never been so ticked at a company for hypocrisy, and that's saying something. As a shareholder, I'm irritated as hell at Jobs' attitude.


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked

FSkornia said:


> Take a look at the prices, they're always X.XX and _9/10ths_ Essentially you're paying a full cent more than the listed price,


The fractions look pretty listed to me. But maybe that's because I bother to look.

Mike


----------



## Jesslyn

Rasputina said:


> Really? so they boycotted and threw a fit for all these years that Amazon has been selling print books at discount? I think not.


Well what about the price reductions that B&N bragged about? Supposedly they reduced their pricing to Amazon's level to offer nook competition


----------



## FSkornia

jmiked said:


> The fractions look pretty listed to me. But maybe that's because I bother to look.
> 
> Mike


The 9/10 part is usually small enough that it isn't as easily read from a moving car as you're approaching a gas station. Of course, since every gas station does the exact same thing, it doesn't matter since the price differences remain the same.


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked

Here's an interesting assessment of book publishing costs:

http://www.writersbeat.com/showthread.php?t=1767

I found it while following the Scalzi thread mentioned earlier.

Mike


----------



## Forster

What we are seeing are the beginning of death throes for the publishing industry as we know it. It will be a long drawn out illness but terminal none the less.

Up until this point publishers have held the upper hand with both authors and retailers. This is changing and the publishers are being cut out of the equation to the financial benefit of authors, sellers and _consumers_. There will still be a need for good editors and copy layout people/firms. However instead of being the gatekeepers on what gets published and then dictating what royalties will be paid, they will be service providers.


----------



## VondaZ

I think all of this drama is just a lot of positioning that isn't going to matter much in the end. If publishers want to charge higher prices for their ebooks, let them. If they can sell just as many copies at a higher price, then they should do that. Or, if they can make more money by selling fewer copies at a higher price, then they should do that.

Bummer for me, the consumer. But if I am willing to pay the higher price, then that is the decision that I make. On the other hand, I personally would just wait for the price to go down. If the publishers can make more money by getting those who will pay higher today to do so and by getting those of us who won't to wait for the paperback release - then they should do that as well. They are in this business to make money.

However, in most cases, if you charge more, more people will find something cheaper to read instead. I will choose free classics or try out unknown authors or self published authors or older works and only buy those few expensive books that I really really want. If enough people are like me, it creates a demand for more competitively priced books. If another publisher offers books at such prices and makes a higher profit as a result, then the rest will fall in line. If they do not make a higher profit, then the higher prices will prevail - and in that case, they should.

I honestly don't think it is fair to say that a book should cost X amount. The publisher should determine the amount based on what they think will bring them the highest profits. The consumer has the right to say no and buy something else if they don't like the price. On the other hand, Amazon has every right to charge whatever they want as well. They have the right to charge what they believe will bring them the highest profits as well. Even if that means they take a loss on e-books in order to sell more hardware and establish a market share.

If publishers think they can make more money by selling their books via Apple and the iPad - let them try it. I suspect the power readers that make up most of their customer base won't be reading too many books on the iPad. The iPad is more an all purpose device that some people may occasionally read something on.

But be clear on one thing, Amazon is not fighting for our rights. We have our rights  - the right to decide what price we will pay. Amazon is posturing for the position that they believe will ultimately bring them the highest profits, just like the publishers, the authors, and the rest of us in our purchasing decisions.


----------



## Jesslyn

jason10mm said:


> Let's not be overly dramatic. Clearly Apple has come to the agreement that $15 is the "new" e-book price. So worst case we just start paying that for new releases. Hardly the death knell for the Kindle or anything.


If that's the 'new' price, I'll be waiting for the not-new price, probably 6 months to a year after release when no one cares anymore. Having just proclaiming a ridiculous number of quarterly profits my money is on some sort of Amazon 'win' as they seem to have both a long-term plan and a look to the consumer need.


----------



## FSkornia

> However, in most cases, if you charge more, more people will find something cheaper to read instead. I will choose free classics or try out unknown authors or self published authors or older works and only buy those few expensive books that I really really want. If enough people are like me, it creates a demand for more competitively priced books. If another publisher offers books at such prices and makes a higher profit as a result, then the rest will fall in line. If they do not make a higher profit, then the higher prices will prevail - and in that case, they should.


Vonda, I would have to say that once upon a time you were right in this regard, but you have to remember the other big bugaboo that lurks with ebooks - piracy. While many of us here will do not agree with it, that doesn't mean that it does not exist and is not starting to rampage through the ebook world in growing amounts. Sure, 70% of the potential readers for the "overpriced" ebook will go off and find something less expensive to read - but maybe 30% will hop onto their favorite torrent site and in a minute be sitting down to that same book on the kindle/nook/sony ereader/apple ipad. If the ebook had been priced at a more market acceptable price a bulk of those pirates would have had no hesitation to purchase it - instead they get it for free causing more lost sales for the retailer and the publisher.


----------



## Rasputina

Jesslyn said:


> If that's the 'new' price, I'll be waiting for the not-new price, probably 6 months to a year after release when no one cares anymore. Having just proclaiming a ridiculous number of quarterly profits my money is on some sort of Amazon 'win' as they seem to have both a long-term plan and a look to the consumer need.


It's not about customer need with pricing, frankly we don't NEED 9.99 we want it and they have created this want for their own purposes. They have taken profit losses all along with these lower prices as a marketing tool to increase purchases of the kindle, the ebooks they sell are DRM'd so you can't take them and read on another device they haven't preauthorized to use their AMZ file type ( well unless you break the DRM ). It's been a marketing tool all along, it's not some altruistic plan. That is fine, it's SOP for businesses to try and create demand in whichever way they can. But let's be real. Amazon isn't incorporated as a nonprofit to service the public's greater good.


----------



## 911jason

jason10mm said:


> Let's not be overly dramatic. Clearly Apple has come to the agreement that *$15 is the "new" e-book price. So worst case we just start paying that* for new releases. Hardly the death knell for the Kindle or anything.


Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?


----------



## Rasputina

911jason said:


> Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?


LOL no I prefer Maille.


----------



## Jesslyn

While I can and do spring for the occasional over $9.99 ebook, I can't afford that as a rule.  Just like when I was in the DTB world, I'd have to pass and take paperback pricing.  As for the long term view, I know that Amazon did a LOT of research and business modeling prior to releasing the Kindle and it's preferred pricing model. I don't think they care about me per se, however, I do think that they care about the thoughts of the consumers as a complete unwashed mass.  And, if we yell loud enough, they listen.


----------



## cheerio

Leslie said:


> from the New York Times:
> 
> *Amazon Pulls Macmillan Books Over E-book Price Disagreement*
> By BRAD STONE
> As Venture Beat and other blogs have noticed Friday evening, books from Macmillan, one of the largest publishers in the United states, have vanished from Amazon.com.
> 
> The question is why.
> 
> I've talked to a person with knowledge of the dispute who says the disappearance is the result of an disagreement between Amazon.com and book publishers that has been brewing for the last year. Macmillan, like other publishers, has asked Amazon to raise to the price of e-books from $9.99 to around $15. "Amazon is expressing its strong disagreement by temporarily removing Macmillan books," said this person, who did not want to be quoted by name because of the status of negotiations.
> 
> Macmillan is one of the publishers signed on to offer books to Apple, as part of its new iBookstore. Its imprints include Farrar, Straus & Giroux, St. Martins Press and Henry Holt.
> 
> Apple, as we've reported before, will allow publishers more leeway to set their own prices for e-books. It's not clear yet if publishers can withhold books from Amazon while giving them to other parties like Apple - I've spoken to two anti-trust attorneys who say it could raise legal issues.
> 
> Macmillan has not yet returned a request for comment. Amazon refused to comment.
> 
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/amazon-pulls-macmillan-books-over-e-book-price-disagreement/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+nytimes/dKEH+(Bits)


wow, greedy publishers


----------



## AnnaM

These publisher antics will encourage more authors to go the independent route. I'm glad I'm not with Macmillan today . . .


----------



## drenee

That's true, AnnaM.  It would be interesting to know what's going on at the MacMillan offices today.
deb


----------



## ElaineOK

Nothing is going on at the MacMillan offices today.  It is Saturday.  

If I thought the people running the major publishing houses were willing to go in on Saturday to deal with a potential crisis, my opinion of their business' life expectancy would have to be revived.

Elaine
Norman, OK


----------



## luvmy4brats

Sherrilyn Kenyon had a post on her Facebook and sent some tweets about this situation. Sadly her Facebook post appears to have been deleted. Clearly, she's NOT supporting Amazon on this though.


----------



## Jesslyn

luvmy4brats said:


> Sherrilyn Kenyon had a post on her Facebook and sent some tweets about this situation. Sadly her Facebook post appears to have been deleted. Clearly, she's NOT supporting Amazon on this though.


I commented a couple of times on her post. Initially she got some support, but towards the end she was getting a lot of negative comments supporting Amazon's move.


----------



## drenee

I was looking around on Facebook to see if any authors had an opinion.  
deb


----------



## rho

this is what I posed on her thread -- 

I feel that both parties are in the wrong - Macmillan and Apple are trying to force their agenda and Amazon is trying to stand up to them - I'll keep my kindle and if it isn't settled I guess my books that Macmillan publishes will come from the library - since reading an actual book causes me pain - I won't spend my money to make me hurt -- there ... are lots of other books to buy for my Kindle - but hopefully they will work it out quickly - I've bought your books in paperback and have also bought most of them for my Kindle - but until this is settled my library will be getting my business now for Macmillan books


----------



## Lyndyb

Wonder if there would be any merit in e-mailing Amazon to tell them we support and appreciate their pricing position and why?


----------



## The Hooded Claw

I don't think Amazon is a group of saints, but overall I have found them to be a company that treats its customers well--I'm sure this is part of their business model, but I'm interested in the outcome, not in their motivation!  So I'm more inclined to back them than the publishers.  Especially since it appears this is related to publishers wanting to raise ebook prices.

This has had a trivial effect on me--I read a book on the practice of medicine by Dr. Atul Gawande recently, and enjoyed it.  Late last week (Thursday night, I think) I was browsing around Amazon and found a book of his called "A List Manifesto" that I wanted to read and almost bought on my Kindle.  Now the book doesn't show up as available from Amazon at all except for third party sellers.  I didn't have an urgent need to read it, and have at least twenty or thirty books waiting to be read on my Kindle, so it isn't as if I desperately needed the new book.


----------



## Sporadic

> Motoko Rich, my colleague, spoke with a person who had a direct conversation with a person at Macmillan familiar with the conversations with Amazon. Macmillan offered Amazon the opportunity to buy Kindle editions on the same "agency" model as it will sell e-books to Apple for the iPad. Under this model, the publisher sets the consumer book price and takes 70 percent of each sale, leaving 30 percent to the retailer. Macmillan said Amazon could continue to buy e-books under its current wholesale model, paying the publisher 50 percent of the hardcover list price while pricing the e-book at any level Amazon chooses, but that Macmillan would delay those e-book editions by seven months after hardcover release. Amazon's removal of Macmillan titles on Friday appears to be a direct reaction to that.


http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/amazon-pulls-macmillan-books-over-e-book-price-disagreement/

What a set of


Spoiler



balls


 on Macmillan. "Let us set the price to whatever we want along with a 70% take or you can give us 50% of the hardcover listing and we'll delay it for seven months."


----------



## VictoriaP

Sporadic said:


> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/amazon-pulls-macmillan-books-over-e-book-price-disagreement/
> 
> What a set of
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> balls
> 
> 
> on Macmillan. "Let us set the price to whatever we want along with a 70% take or you can give us 50% of the hardcover listing and we'll delay it for seven months."


LOL--fine. Let MacMillan set their stupidly high prices and watch their sales of ebooks plummet. Seriously--those people who were going to buy at hardcover prices will, regardless, but that's not the largest part of the consumer base. Those who would have normally waited for the paperback--now reading ebooks and willingly paying $9.99 to read it sooner--will simply go back to their old buying habits and wait for the price to drop.

So so so so SO shortsighted of MacMillan.


----------



## umama

Leslie said:


> "Because that's the way we've always done it"?
> 
> I suspect a publisher would argue that the biggest expenses of a book are the fixed costs (editing, manuscript preparation, marketing, etc.) and the variable costs (printing, distribution) are relatively small. Thus, the fixed costs should be spread out over all versions of a book that are sold, which is why ebooks and print cost the same to the wholesale purchaser.
> 
> I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this argument, but the MBA part of my brain knows that this is how the VP for Accounting would spin it.
> 
> L


I'm sure it is their spin, but they somehow manage to make the numbers work for paperbacks (plenty of books never exist as hardcovers), as well as YA.

Like others have said, I wish publishers would take a better look at purchasing patterns. I've just gotten my Kindle, but there are bestsellers I'm buying for $10 that I never would have purchased otherwise - I'd waitlist it at the library.


----------



## ElaineOK

I'm surprised Amazon didn't take them up on it.  No, I'm not.  Why wait 7 months to subsidize the sales price?  

I agree that MacMillan will not see a sharp rise in hardback sales.  

Elaine
Norman, Oklahoma


----------



## Forster

VictoriaP said:


> LOL--fine. Let MacMillan set their stupidly high prices and watch their sales of ebooks plummet. Seriously--those people who were going to buy at hardcover prices will, regardless, but that's not the largest part of the consumer base. Those who would have normally waited for the paperback--now reading ebooks and willingly paying $9.99 to read it sooner--will simply go back to their old buying habits and wait for the price to drop.
> 
> So so so so SO shortsighted of MacMillan.


And build up some bad will with your customers while you are at it.

It is short sighted because I don't think this is a battle MacMillan can win, the question is going to be how badly are they going to lose.

I'll vote with both my wallet and towards those publishers that embrace me as an _e-book_ customer, not some nuisance that is upsetting the apple cart.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

Forster said:


> What we are seeing are the beginning of death throes for the publishing industry as we know it. It will be a long drawn out illness but terminal none the less.
> 
> Up until this point publishers have held the upper hand with both authors and retailers. This is changing and the publishers are being cut out of the equation to the financial benefit of authors, sellers and _consumers_. There will still be a need for good editors and copy layout people/firms. However instead of being the gatekeepers on what gets published and then dictating what royalties will be paid, they will be service providers.


Personally, I think Forster hit the nail squarely on the head. The day-glo orange spray paint has been on the walls for a while now, telling anyone in the publishing industry who was wiling to open their eyes that there's a very fundamental paradigm shift underway, driven by technology: like it or not, ebooks are the future, a future that really is already upon us. Amazon clearly sees this, and - a credit to them - have been moving quickly to capitalize on it. Hopefully some of the big publishers will wake up soon. Those that don't, the ones that try to continue blindly on with the "traditional" business model like MacMillan, are simply heading the way of the dinosaurs...


----------



## VictoriaP

I will say that sometimes it's hard to pick which side to root for when it comes to ebooks.

Case in point, the TTS issue.  Everyone was screaming because Random House turned TTS off in default.  "Boycott Random House!" was all over the Amazon forums, and to a degree, it spilled over to here.

Oh, wait.

I've been watching, and it seems Random House a.) in general, releases ebooks same day as hardcovers and b.) is one of the major publishers that sees value in the free ebook promotions.  Every month, at least one of the free books that shows up on our Book Bazaar thread is from a publisher who falls somewhere under the Random House label.  Usually it's several books per month.  And last year, some of those books were free for MONTHS.

So are they pro-ebook or anti-ebook?  In this case, I think they're pro.  But it goes to show that not all these issues are cut and dried.


----------



## teiresias

From the publishers point of view, they're hoping the unstoppable juggernaut that is Apple and Jobs' latest creation will let them overcome and stop the "fundamental paradigm shift underway."

I'm not sure I don't disagree either, you think people buying an iPad are going to not buy the Macmillan product to take a stand over a rise in pricing for e-books on a device they don't own?

What's the best email and snail mail address to use for Macmillan?


----------



## Leslie

"The unstoppable juggernaut that is Apple" has had flops in the past. Remember "The Lisa"?

As I said elsewhere on this board, I am completely underwhelmed with the iPad and it would not be the thing convincing me to pay $5 more, on average, for an ebook.

L


----------



## Chad Winters

umama said:


> I'm sure it is their spin, but they somehow manage to make the numbers work for paperbacks (plenty of books never exist as hardcovers), as well as YA.
> 
> Like others have said, I wish publishers would take a better look at purchasing patterns. I've just gotten my Kindle, but there are bestsellers I'm buying for $10 that I never would have purchased otherwise - I'd waitlist it at the library.


I think the breaking point will be when published A-list authors begin choosing their publisher based on things like how they are adjusting to the new paradigm and do they see the cash cow ebooks can be? It will be interesting to see if some Macmillan authors begin publishing with more ebook friendly houses.

I agree if I buy a lot more 9.99 books that I would never have paid $20 for, how can this be a bad thing? I use to frequent the library and 1/2 price bookstores heavily and have not now for almost 2 years. 2 years of buying hundreds of books, not secondhand or borrowed from friends or libraries, but new and direct. What idiot can't see this as a good thing?


----------



## ElaineOK

There is one important distinction.  Kindle owners (and in particular KBoards readers) tend to be high volume readers.  Few high volume readers pay for hardbacks very often.  It is just too expensive.  My guess is that the majority of people buying the iPad will not be high volume readers.  They will be much less price sensitive and much less interested in waiting for a hot new release.  So, Apple might sell ebooks at higher prices; but they won't sell anything like Kindle volume, even with a significantly larger number of readers in the market.  Although, frankly, I don't expect to see more iPads sold than Kindles.  The last business analyst numbers I saw estimated 3 million Kindles sold -- and Kindle ain't done yet.  That is a heck of a headstart, and most of us are serious readers.

Elaine 
Norman, OK


----------



## tlrowley

VictoriaP said:


> Let MacMillan set their stupidly high prices and watch their sales of ebooks plummet.
> 
> So so so so SO shortsighted of MacMillan.


But it's a shortsightedness that can bite _us_ in the behind. If the sales of ebooks do plummet, what's to stop them from saying "See, we told you nobody wants ebooks. It's just not worth our while to publish them any more." If we think delayed ebooks are a problem, what are we supposed to think when those books are simply not available (from a legal source - make no mistake, they will be available on the darknet)

One commenter on one of the many blogs I've read today said "when elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled". I'm feeling a little like a blade of grass right now, and I'd like this to get sorted out quickly.


----------



## tlrowley

ElaineOK said:


> Although, frankly, I don't expect to see more iPads sold than Kindles.


I agree with a lot of what you said, Elaine, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. iPad sales will dwarf Kindle sales. I love my Kindle, but even I have to admit it's a niche product. iPads have a lot more general appeal - even to people who will never open the iBook app.


----------



## Leslie

tlrowley said:


> But it's a shortsightedness that can bite _us_ in the behind. If the sales of ebooks do plummet, what's to stop them from saying "See, we told you nobody wants ebooks. It's just not worth our while to publish them any more." If we think delayed ebooks are a problem, what are we supposed to think when those books are simply not available (from a legal source - make no mistake, they will be available on the darknet)


Sales of Macmillan books will plummet. People will just shift to buying other books. I've already seen that on a couple of blogs I am monitoring on this issue. I have not seen one person who admits to being an ereader say that s/he'll go back to reading paper versions of a favorite Macmillan-published author (purchased from a source other than Amazon). They just say they'll find new favorite authors.

I have actually been making that transition myself, which has accelerated since I got my Kindle. With the easy availability of books from smaller presses and ebook only publishers, I have a whole new list of favorite authors, most of whom do not publish with the big NY houses. The exception would be the group of 4 new m/m romance books/authors from Running Press -- and 3 of those 4 authors have books with small presses. RP was their big break. RP is evaluating whether or not they'll even keep this new line depending on its success.

The sample I have of Sarah's Key (a Macmillan title) is only because someone else recommended it to me. It wasn't something I found on my own.

L


----------



## ElaineOK

You're right. I just checked iphone/itouch sales figures. I have evidently been living under a rock -- where I've been reading my Kindle.



tlrowley said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, Elaine, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. iPad sales will dwarf Kindle sales. I love my Kindle, but even I have to admit it's a niche product. iPads have a lot more general appeal - even to people who will never open the iBook app.


----------



## Leslie

tlrowley said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, Elaine, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. iPad sales will dwarf Kindle sales. I love my Kindle, but even I have to admit it's a niche product. iPads have a lot more general appeal - even to people who will never open the iBook app.


I agree that the iPad will outsell Kindle but compared to its peers, the Pod/Touch/Phone, I don't think it's going to be a runaway best seller. For me, it wouldn't a replacement for my iPhone (no phone, no camera) and it certainly isn't a replacement for my laptop. I have a Kindle that I am completely happy with, so I don't need the iPad to read books. So what exactly am I supposed to do with an iPad? I'm still scratching my head over that.

L


----------



## pomlover2586

Leslie said:


> I agree that the iPad will outsell Kindle but compared to its peers, the Pod/Touch/Phone, I don't think it's going to be a runaway best seller. For me, it wouldn't a replacement for my iPhone (no phone, no camera) and it certainly isn't a replacement for my laptop. I have a Kindle that I am completely happy with, so I don't need the iPad to read books. So what exactly am I supposed to do with an iPad? I'm still scratching my head over that.
> 
> L


Beautifully said! I couldn't agree more! I have an Ipod touch, a laptop, and a Kindle.....the Ipad has no features to it I don't already have.......why purchase a larger/heavier model when I already have all I need?


----------



## Chad Winters

I think the big difference will be in percent of iPad owners who buy a significant number of books vs Kindle owners. I bet the book buying rate on the PADD (http://bit.ly/Oy3Na) will be very low. People will buy it to surf the web, play games and watch movies, but not read.


----------



## VictoriaP

ElaineOK said:


> There is one important distinction. Kindle owners (and in particular KBoards readers) tend to be high volume readers. Few high volume readers pay for hardbacks very often. It is just too expensive. My guess is that the majority of people buying the iPad will not be high volume readers. They will be much less price sensitive and much less interested in waiting for a hot new release. So, Apple might sell ebooks at higher prices; but they won't sell anything like Kindle volume, even with a significantly larger number of readers in the market.


I do tend to think this is the way it will go. Yes, there may/will be more iPads sold, but as far as book sales running through iBooks, the publishers are going to find that ebook sales through Amazon (and probably even B&N) dwarf the iBooks volume. No one who's a high volume reader is going to want to read 200 books a year on that thing. So they'll be trying to make up for it by charging higher prices--which in theory will still be lower than the hardcover price.

But I think even a casual reader isn't likely to much enjoy reading on an iPad, because even casual readers don't tend to read on their computers. It just isn't comfortable to do so.



Leslie said:


> Sales of Macmillan books will plummet. People will just shift to buying other books. I've already seen that on a couple of blogs I am monitoring on this issue. I have not seen one person who admits to being an ereader say that s/he'll go back to reading paper versions of a favorite Macmillan-published author (purchased from a source other than Amazon). They just say they'll find new favorite authors.
> 
> I have actually been making that transition myself, which has accelerated since I got my Kindle. With the easy availability of books from smaller presses and ebook only publishers, I have a whole new list of favorite authors, most of whom do not publish with the big NY houses. The exception would be the group of 4 new m/m romance books/authors from Running Press -- and 3 of those 4 authors have books with small presses. RP was their big break. RP is evaluating whether or not they'll even keep this new line depending on its success.
> 
> The sample I have of Sarah's Key (a Macmillan title) is only because someone else recommended it to me. It wasn't something I found on my own.
> 
> L


I have a number of authors I currently read who are signed with MacMillan. Whatever. I'll either buy their books used or get them from the library. Which is a shame for them, because most of them are in the category where I'd buy the ebook on the day of release (if released along with the hardcover) and pay the stupid $14.99 or whatever, rather than wait until the next week when it hits the bestseller lists.

But if I can't get it in ebook form on the day of release, then I'll just wait for the library to have it. Oh well. I've got 40 or 50 books on the Kindle right now that I should be getting through anyway.


----------



## Forster

VictoriaP said:


> I will say that sometimes it's hard to pick which side to root for when it comes to ebooks.
> 
> Case in point, the TTS issue. Everyone was screaming because Random House turned TTS off in default. "Boycott Random House!" was all over the Amazon forums, and to a degree, it spilled over to here.
> 
> Oh, wait.
> 
> I've been watching, and it seems Random House a.) in general, releases ebooks same day as hardcovers and b.) is one of the major publishers that sees value in the free ebook promotions. Every month, at least one of the free books that shows up on our Book Bazaar thread is from a publisher who falls somewhere under the Random House label. Usually it's several books per month. And last year, some of those books were free for MONTHS.
> 
> So are they pro-ebook or anti-ebook? In this case, I think they're pro. But it goes to show that not all these issues are cut and dried.


I would think TTS is/was a minor annoyance for most users. I thought it was stupid of the authors/publishers to try and compare it to books on tape but in the end I didn't care because while nice it was something I could easily live without.

The pricing issues annoy me only when there is no reasonable price differential between the DTB and e-book versions. The publishers can spin the cost/pricing structures all they want. What I do know is there are physical/transportation costs associated with paper books that are absent from e-books and I won't pay the same price for the two. To me a reasonable differential is only a couple of bucks for a hardback and maybe a buck for the paperback. Aside from that price them at whatever they think the market will bear and I'll either pay for them or not.

The delay the e-book issue is what really, really gets my goat. I don't expect to get a e-book at paperback prices when it is 1st released, but to tell me I can not buy it as an e-book...


----------



## Rasputina

ElaineOK said:


> There is one important distinction. Kindle owners (and in particular KBoards readers) tend to be high volume readers. Few high volume readers pay for hardbacks very often. It is just too expensive. My guess is that the majority of people buying the iPad will not be high volume readers. They will be much less price sensitive and much less interested in waiting for a hot new release. So, Apple might sell ebooks at higher prices; but they won't sell anything like Kindle volume, even with a significantly larger number of readers in the market. Although, frankly, I don't expect to see more iPads sold than Kindles. The last business analyst numbers I saw estimated 3 million Kindles sold -- and Kindle ain't done yet. That is a heck of a headstart, and most of us are serious readers.
> 
> Elaine
> Norman, OK


ibookstore is an app that will be available on the ipod touch and the iphone along with the ipad. So it's ebook sales aren't dependant on 1 device. BTW, Steve Jobs has said that Apple has sold over 75 million ipod touchs and iphones. Now THAT is a head start, since all of those devices will be capable of shopping in and using the ibooks app.


----------



## intinst

Rasputina said:


> ibookstore is an app that will be available on the ipod touch and the iphone along with the ipad. So it's ebook sales aren't dependant on 1 device. BTW, Steve Jobs has said that Apple has sold over 75 million ipod touchs and iphones. Now THAT is a head start, since all of those devices will be capable of shopping in and using the ibooks app.


Of course, those same 75 million devices also can have access to the Amazon bookstore. That is why Apple wants to try and make sure that their prices can't be under cut by 5 dollars. Where would you want to buy at that difference?


----------



## Rasputina

Except that the publishers already weren't happy at Amazons pricing, this has been brewing for over a year even according to the link provided by Leslie. Heck the pricing dispute with publishers has been discussed here over the last year. It was going to end up in a show down at some point, no matter what.


----------



## scottder

Leslie said:


> "The unstoppable juggernaut that is Apple" has had flops in the past. Remember "The Lisa"?
> 
> As I said elsewhere on this board, I am completely underwhelmed with the iPad and it would not be the thing convincing me to pay $5 more, on average, for an ebook.


Really the Lisa.... may want to reference something after 1983 

Scott


----------



## scottder

It is sad to see the publishing industry is going to insist on making the EXACT same mistakes as the music industry.

Scott


----------



## VondaZ

tlrowley said:


> But it's a shortsightedness that can bite _us_ in the behind. If the sales of ebooks do plummet, what's to stop them from saying "See, we told you nobody wants ebooks. It's just not worth our while to publish them any more." If we think delayed ebooks are a problem, what are we supposed to think when those books are simply not available (from a legal source - make no mistake, they will be available on the darknet)


But the fact of the matter is, that even this early in the game, it has clearly been demonstrated that there is a market for e-books if they are priced correctly. That market is only going to grow. If certain publishers wish to discontinue with the e-books, then someone else is going to step in and cash in on their short-sightedness.

One thing that I think really needs to start happening is for e-books to start being counted when calculating the Best Seller lists. If e-books affected the ranking of the books as best sellers, publishers would be cutting off their own noses by either delaying the e-book sales or by discontinuing them altogether.

E-books are the future of the publishing industry and any company that writes them off will be written off themselves in the end. If there is a market for them, they will be sold.

Vonda


----------



## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> ibookstore is an app that will be available on the ipod touch and the iphone along with the ipad. So it's ebook sales aren't dependant on 1 device. BTW, Steve Jobs has said that Apple has sold over 75 million ipod touchs and iphones. Now THAT is a head start, since all of those devices will be capable of shopping in and using the ibooks app.


But **most** people aren't going to want to buy large numbers of books and read them on an iTouch or iPhone. Some will, obviously, and that's fine--I know you found you much preferred it. But the majority are likely go, oh, cool idea, buy ONE book, realize what a PITA it is to read the latest thriller on an iPhone and go, hmmm....not for me.

Again, in order to make books profitable for Apple, they're going to have to grab the majority of casual readers, same as they did with iTunes. The majority of heavy volume readers aren't going to want to use the iPad, they're going to gravitate towards any of the true e-readers on the market. So the question becomes which market sector actually produces a higher profit? The tons of people who read a few books a year at higher prices (but you have to still convince them that ebooks are acceptable substitutes for print books), or the lesser number of people who read hundreds at lower prices?

(without hard numbers, I can't answer that one myself, just throwing it out there)


----------



## mcl

scottder said:


> Really the Lisa.... may want to reference something after 1983
> 
> Scott


The AppleTV. The Macintosh Cube. The big (non-iMac) desktop Macs. The Time Capsule. The Mighty Mouse. Whatever that new touch-sensitive mouse is they sell. In fact, pretty much everything but the notebooks, the iMac, the Mac mini to a lesser extent, the iPhone/iTouch, and Airport base stations (and I think even those are rapidly losing ground now that the rest of the industry caught up to them and surpassed them in both technology and price).


----------



## Rasputina

VictoriaP said:


> But **most** people aren't going to want to buy large numbers of books and read them on an iTouch or iPhone. Some will, obviously, and that's fine--I know you found you much preferred it. But the majority are likely go, oh, cool idea, buy ONE book, realize what a PITA it is to read the latest thriller on an iPhone and go, hmmm....not for me.
> 
> Again, in order to make books profitable for Apple, they're going to have to grab the majority of casual readers, same as they did with iTunes. The majority of heavy volume readers aren't going to want to use the iPad, they're going to gravitate towards any of the true e-readers on the market. So the question becomes which market sector actually produces a higher profit? The tons of people who read a few books a year at higher prices, or the lesser number of people who read hundreds at lower prices?
> 
> (without hard numbers, I can't answer that one myself, just throwing it out there)


You know, I was really surprised when I read a few years ago that Apple actually makes most of their money on the devices they sell, not the itunes store. Wish I could remember where I read it, but Steve Jobs was talking about how only a fraction of the people that buy basic ipods ( I'm not talking the touch or iphone that use the app store) actually shop in the itunes store and instead load their own CDs. He said the profit margin for the itunes store sales was pretty slim.


----------



## ak rain

growing pains. we all go through it and come out the other side.
sylvia


----------



## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> You know, I was really surprised when I read a few years ago that Apple actually makes most of their money on the devices they sell, not the itunes store. Wish I could remember where I read it, but Steve Jobs was talking about how only a fraction of the people that buy basic ipods ( I'm not talking the touch or iphone that use the app store) load their own CDs and buy little music in the store. He said the profit margin for the itunes store sales was pretty slim.


I'd tend to believe that. I've still got such a ridiculously large CD collection that my self loaded music far outstrips my iTunes collection. It's also why I truthfully believe that iBooks is going to be YEARS before it's at all profitable, because the volume going through there is so low and the profit Apple takes is 30%. The problem though at that point becomes how little money the publishers take in from retail sales through Apple. Seventy percent of nothing is still nothing.

The hardware vs. software profit is also Amazon's philosophy is on the Kindle. Take a loss on the ebook files to sell more hardware, thereby locking in a user base.


----------



## luvmy4brats

I just got this on Twitter:

Letter to all Macmillan authors/illustrators and lit agent community posted at this *open* link: http://bit.ly/i0VTE


----------



## VictoriaP

luvmy4brats said:


> I just got this on Twitter:
> 
> Letter to all Macmillan authors/illustrators and lit agent community posted at this *open* link: http://bit.ly/i0VTE


"*The agency model would allow Amazon to make more money selling our books, not less. We would make less money in our dealings with Amazon under the new model.* Our disagreement is not about short-term profitability but rather about the long-term viability and stability of the digital book market.

Amazon and Macmillan both want a healthy and vibrant future for books. We clearly do not agree on how to get there. Meanwhile, the action they chose to take last night clearly defines the importance they attribute to their view. We hold our view equally strongly. I hope you agree with us."

What I wouldn't give to see the actual figures they think make the bold highlighted sentences make sense. Other than, of course, the publishers will make less money because they're selling fewer books!

Here's the link: http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/lunch/free/

Gotta hand it to their Communications folks, well written letter that's beautifully slanted to showcase the party line.


----------



## Anju 

Leslie said:


> Dona, I meant the subscription book clubs by mail, like Book of the Month Club and so on (The History Book Club, The Mystery Book Club, etc)....not book clubs for readers that get together and discuss books. Sorry for the confusion!
> 
> L


Thanks Leslie - DUH - I forgot about those book clubs


----------



## Rasputina

The options presented in the letter of windowing titles or a new pricing structure mirrors the recent negotiations between Netflix and Warner Bros. Netflix was offered the option of paying the studio more for the movies they rent or to have to wait 28 days to offer them for rent. Netflix chose to wait the 28 days.

Wonder what will happen with Amazon.


----------



## pidgeon92

Amazon has other options besides a $9.99 selling price. They could try something like FictionWise, where purchases are rebated to your customer account to use for later purchases.


----------



## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> The options presented in the letter of windowing titles or a new pricing structure mirrors the recent negotiations between Netflix and Warner Bros. Netflix was offered the option of paying the studio more for the movies they rent or to have to wait 28 days to offer them for rent. Netflix chose to wait the 28 days.
> 
> Wonder what will happen with Amazon.


If it were a month, I'd be closer to OK with that, but MacMillan is saying SEVEN months between the hardcover release and the ebook release. That's just silly--a lot of people simply forget a book is even out over that length of time. I can't tell you how many print releases I've missed where the hardcover came out a year before and I either find it in the $4.99 pile at B&N or never see it at all, just pick up the paperback. And these are books I was waiting on!

That posted "mail" made it look like MacMillan is planning on rolling this out to all their retailers, not just Amazon. IF that's true, I cannot wait to see what Barnes & Noble and Sony have to say about it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're claiming it as being across the board, but using Amazon as a test case to see what kind of backlash they get from the idea.


----------



## LisaW.

One major point that I don't understand is that, why, when Apple worked so hard to drive the prices of digital music down, they're now trying to drive the prices of digital books up?

What is Apple planning on charging for digital versions of paperback books? Macmillan wants to charge over $10 for a $7 paperback - is Apple okay with that pricing?

Are they hoping that they'll win over all the current kindle owners, and then when they have the largest amount of users, they can attempt and then claim that they drove digital book prices down?


----------



## Rasputina

VictoriaP said:


> If it were a month, I'd be closer to OK with that, but MacMillan is saying SEVEN months between the hardcover release and the ebook release. That's just silly--a lot of people simply forget a book is even out over that length of time. I can't tell you how many print releases I've missed where the hardcover came out a year before and I either find it in the $4.99 pile at B&N or never see it at all, just pick up the paperback. And these are books I was waiting on!
> 
> That posted "mail" made it look like MacMillan is planning on rolling this out to all their retailers, not just Amazon. IF that's true, I cannot wait to see what Barnes & Noble and Sony have to say about it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're claiming it as being across the board, but using Amazon as a test case to see what kind of backlash they get from the idea.


That is exactly the same thing that has been said about Warner and Netflix, that it would end up being across the board. Other studios will follow suit also. Blockbuster was offered the same choice and chose to pay more to purchase their movies instead of having a rental waiting period.

Although I purposely choose to buy the discounted 3rd party hardcovers once they become ( what are they called remainders? I can't remember now) at a couple bucks instead of buying the paperbacks. But I have a personal aversion to paperbacks LOL.


----------



## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> Although I purposely choose to buy the discounted 3rd party hardcovers once they become ( what are they called remainders? I can't remember now) at a couple bucks instead of buying the paperbacks. But I have a personal aversion to paperbacks LOL.


Paperbacks are a PITA. Tough to read without breaking the spines. Cheaper paper tears more easily, and yellows sooner (although I'm seeing too much of that with hardcovers too, they're skimping). The paperbacks are hogging all my shelves, and bookshelves aren't sized for them, they're sized for hardcovers. They drive me batty. 

I'd like to know whether more copies of any given book are sold in hardcover at "normal" prices (non remaindered, prices that produce some sort of profit) versus paperbacks. I think that would be interesting information, especially considering I rarely found "sale" prices on paperbacks, but hardcovers are nearly always "on sale" at first release.

More of a curiosity question than anything else, I guess!


----------



## LindaW

chocochibi said:


> Love my Kindle too, but I also wish we could borrow library books through Overdrive with them. Of course then we wouldn't be affected by Amazon's dispute with Macmillan, bexause then we could hopefully just get the books from the library. Our library has only been getting ebooks since October, but they already have close to a hundred titles, so I'm sure they'll end up with a good collection. Of course it helps that my partner is the librarian responsible for buying ebooks for the whole library system
> 
> He did say though that ebooks for use through Overdrive are incredibly expensive for the library to buy.


This may seem a silly question - but how does that work? Borrowing e-books from a library for a particluar device. Our local library had a huge expansion a couple of years back, and I think they do that now.


----------



## mcl

luvmy4brats said:


> I just got this on Twitter:
> 
> Letter to all Macmillan authors/illustrators and lit agent community posted at this *open* link: http://bit.ly/i0VTE


Too bad I can't get that guy to see my open letter to the Macmillan CEO:

"Dear CEO:
I refuse to pay more for a license to an e-book than the price I'd pay if I walked into a bookstore and bought the paperback, new -- a paperback for which I retain the right of first sale; a paperback I own outright as an object. Look closely at the struggling movie and recording industry. Look at how they've fought tooth and nail against every new technology, going back to the wax cylinder. Look at how, in the end, they wound up generating more profits by accepting the new technology than they ever had prior to the advent of said technology.

Stop fearing the future; embrace it. Stop fearing for lost physical sales and realize that inflated prices benefit no one in the end, and will only serve to prop up the physical market in the short term. In the medium to long term, your competitors will leave you in the dust in the new marketplace. Readers are loyal, yes.

But they're not stupid.

Love,
A physical and digital book reader with disposable income"


----------



## pidgeon92

LindaW said:


> This may seem a silly question - but how does that work? Borrowing e-books from a library for a particluar device. Our local library had a huge expansion a couple of years back, and I think they do that now.


There are several ereaders on the market now that can be used to read Overdrive library books.... Sony's readers and B&N's nook are two popular options.


----------



## webhill

FYI, I emailed customer service to inquire as to why they had to not only stop selling a book that was on my wishlist, but to remove the title of the book from my wishlist so I no longer had a record of what book I wished to eventually purchase. In my email, I stated that I suspected that the book was published by Macmillan or a subsidiary, but of course I could not be sure because the title is no longer available so I can not check. I got this sadly uninformative reply:

---
I'm very sorry to hear of your trouble with the Kindle Wish List.

Unfortunately, we do not have any information on why content has been removed from your wish list.  Because of this, we also do not have any information about how we are going to resolve this issue in the future.

We are working with the publisher to make their titles available as soon as possible and at the lowest possible prices for our customers. We will e-mail you when these titles are available, which we hope will be soon.
---


----------



## akagriff

I was just reading the new promotional blurb re: the kindle on the amazon home page.  Today it reads:
"Low Book Prices.  Get current New York Times bestsellers and new releases for $9.99*    *-unless marked otherwise"
This must be a response to this issue.


----------



## intinst

akagriff said:


> I was just reading the new promotional blurb re: the kindle on the amazon home page. Today it reads:
> "Low Book Prices. Get current New York Times bestsellers and new releases for $9.99* *-unless marked otherwise"
> This must be a response to this issue.


This is not new. It has always read that way. Amazon has always reserved the right to charge more for a book.


----------



## Raffeer

Great letter MCI.


----------



## drenee

LindaW said:


> This may seem a silly question - but how does that work? Borrowing e-books from a library for a particluar device. Our local library had a huge expansion a couple of years back, and I think they do that now.


If you go to your library's web page they should give you directions on how to load a book through Overdrive. Overdrive is a program that you can download for free. 
deb


----------



## LuckyKelleyK

intinst said:


> This is not new. It has always read that way. Amazon has always reserved the right to charge more for a book.


Also, some of the books on that list are less than 9.99


----------



## ElaineOK

An article I read in USA Today disagrees with this. Of course, I doubt anyone really knows yet -- possibly not even Jobs.



Rasputina said:


> ibookstore is an app that will be available on the ipod touch and the iphone along with the ipad. So it's ebook sales aren't dependant on 1 device. BTW, Steve Jobs has said that Apple has sold over 75 million ipod touchs and iphones. Now THAT is a head start, since all of those devices will be capable of shopping in and using the ibooks app.


Elaine
Norman, Ok


----------



## eBook Resistance

Yesterday, January 29th, 2010, a day that will live in infamy, all readers of electronic books were suddenly and deliberately attacked by the combined forces of the Macmillan Tyranny.

Although Kindle users are taking the brunt of the onslaught today, make no mistake that if we were to break under the forces of the enemy, Nook and Sony and iPad users will suffer the same $15.00 fate in the future.

Let our Nook and Sony and iPad kindred realize that their destiny is tied to our destiny. That their freedom is tied to our freedom. That their price is tied to our price. That none of us can walk alone.

Let all readers of electronic books declare, that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Macmillan, a state of war has existed between all eBook readers and the Macmillan Tyranny. Hostilities exist. War has begun. There is no blinking at the fact that our format, our eBooks and the price we pay for them are in grave danger.

This is why I make this call to arms, to our Nook and Sony and iPad brothers and sisters, to put aside our petty loyalties and stand together, not for a particular reader or format or platform or store or company, to stand together not for those things that divide us but for those things that unite us.

To stand and fight together for all ebooks, whether they come from the plains of the Kindle, or the forests of the Nook, or the beaches of the Sony, or the mountains of the iPad, to be priced at a value that not only honors the labor of the author, that not only satisfies the greed of the publisher, that not only covers the burden of the store, but that also respects the dignity, yes the dignity of the reader.

I call for our Nook and Sony and iPad brothers and sisters to join us in this sacred struggle, to boycott and shun books from the Macmillan Tyranny, not only in their devices but in the retail stores too.

Let us speak with one voice, let us hope with one heart, let us buy with one wallet, let us all share the bounty of the same dream. A dream where users of the Kindle and the Nook and the Sony and the iPad, will come together and join hands and sing "$9.99 at last! $9.99 at last! Thank eBook Almighty, $9.99 at last!".

The Battle of Kindle has begun. Upon this battle depends the very future of the eBook. The whole fury and might of the enemy will fall on us. The Macmillan Tyranny knows that it will have to break us or lose the eBook War. If we can stand up to it, all eBook readers everywhere may be free of the $15.00 chains and share in the $9.99 dream. But if we fail, then the whole world, including our Nook and Sony and iPad kindred, will sink into the abyss of a new Print Age made more expensive by their dominance of the digital format.

We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long days of struggle and of suffering. Neutrals will ask, what is our policy? Let us say: It is to wage war, by store, by author, by publisher with all our might and with all the leftover dollars Uncle Sam has seen fit to leave us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of digital crime. That is our policy.

The neutral will ask, what is our aim? Let us answer with one word: victory. Victory at all costs over $9.99, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no liberty.

Let that be realized; no liberty for our beloved electronic books, no freedom from the greed of the publisher, no independence for all that eBooks have stood for, no survival for the hope and dream of the ages.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated attack, electronic book readers everywhere, in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again.

Let us have full confidence that if we all do our duty, we shall prove ourselves able to defend our eBooks, to ride out this storm, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

Even though a large number of eBooks and many old and famous works have fallen or may yet fall into the grips of the $15.00 Empire, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength, we shall defend our eBooks, whatever the sacrifice may be, we shall fight on the internet, we shall fight in the stores, we shall fight in the blogs and in the media, we shall fight in the hearts and minds of the readers; we shall never surrender!

Even if, which we do not for a moment believe, this Kindle or a large part of it were subjugated by the enemy, then our eBook reader brothers and sisters beyond, armed and guarded by the Nook and the Sony and the iPad, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New eBook Readers, with all their power and might, step forth to the rescue and the liberation of the Old.

So let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves witness that in the future, when readers of electronic books get their Kindle 8s and Nook 6s and Sony 10s and iPad 4s, they will look back to today and say, 'This was their finest hour.'

And just to be clear, the following publishers are all Macmillian related.  Know the enemy:

* Macmillan Publishers (United States) (formerly called Holtzbrinck Publishers)
o Farrar, Straus and Giroux
+ Faber & Faber
o Henry Holt and Company
+ Holt Paperbacks
+ Metropolitan Books
+ Times Books
+ Owl Books
o Palgrave Macmillan
o Picador
o Roaring Brook Press
+ First Second Books
o St. Martin's Press
o Tom Doherty Associates
+ Tor Books
+ Forge Books
o Bedford, Freeman and Worth Publishing Group
+ W.H. Freeman
+ Bedford/St. Martin's
+ Worth Publishers
o Nature Publishing Group
+ Scientific American, Inc.


----------



## parakeetgirl

I'm In !!! Very good post...I'm all fired up and ready to do battle!


----------



## Magenta

I disagree.  I fear these ridiculous low prices will take money from the authors.  Let the publishers charge what they will, if no one buys at the higher price they will be forced to lower it.  Just because you are reading it in e-book form does not take away all the work the author put into it.  Granted, production cost is lower, but that is only one part of the full cost of a book.  

Why are we treating ebooks different from paperbacks?  Did we protest the later release and lower cost of paperbacks?  No. Then why do we have these unrealistic expectations for ebooks?

I don't

If I must read a book 30 seconds after it comes off the production line, then I will pay the asking price for what ever version is issued.  

I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider the value of the story you are reading and the amount of work that went into creating that story.  What are you saying to the author when you refuse to pay more than X for their book?  Think about it.


----------



## geko29

scottder said:


> Really the Lisa.... may want to reference something after 1983
> 
> Scott


Then the Newton, or the Cube, or Apple TV. None of which have been quite the antithesis of sales that the Lisa was, granted, but all relatively spectacular failures in their own right.

And because I'm old school, the Apple III.


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## 911jason

I treat an ebook differently from a paperback because there is no paper involved. I don't buy the argument made by the publishers that the paper/printing/transportation costs associated with the hardcovers and paperbacks are only a small portion of their total costs, and if somehow that is true, then wake up to the new millenia and make your business more efficient if you need to adjust to this new digital world.

If it comes to a price vs delay debate, I guess I'll take the lower price and a longer delay for the book, but they risk losing the sale while I buy other books waiting for their artificial delay to end.

By the way, I'm surprised that I haven't seen the whole Global Warming schtick problem brought into this paper vs e-book war. It sure seems to get brought up in every other aspect of our society these days. Paperless = eco-friendly, right?

P.S. You can always send monetary donations to your favorite author if you think they are in danger of the welfare lines.


----------



## Snapcat

Agreed on all accounts! I will never pay more than 9.99 for an ebook, especially since sometimes I can even get a DTB for cheaper than that! I'm also not buying the need for high costs, despite what the publishers are saying. They don't have to pay distribution costs, shipping, paper, or anything like that.


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## RiddleMeThis

Exactly 911jason!!!



> What are you saying to the author when you refuse to pay more than X for their book? Think about it


I am saying there book in whatever formating at whatever price, is not worth that price.

I have yet to read an author that I would pay more than $10.

Sure, we could just let publishers set the prices at $15 until they realize that $10 is the realistic price point, but who knows how long that will take. We already KNOW that for the majority of the people $10 IS the correct price point. Why give in and suffer for months possibly years with a $15 price point when we can "fight" and keep the $10 that is already proven and works well?


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## Betsy the Quilter

So years ago, when people were dreaming of ebooks, $10 was the price dreamed of paying?  Or was it when Amazon arbitrarily said books on the NY Times bestseller lists would be $9.99 that it was determined that this is the correct price?

There's going to be a lot of shakeout before a fair price to authors, readers and publishers is arrived at.  We're just at the beginning of a long process which will be determined by the success of the ebook market.

For me, I seldom pay $9.99.  I wait for the "paperback" price, just as I did with hardbacks.

Loved the initial post.  

Betsy


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So years ago, when people were dreaming of ebooks, $10 was the price dreamed of paying? Or was it when Amazon arbitrarily said books on the NY Times bestseller lists would be $9.99 that it was determined that this is the correct price?


Exactly. If Amazon said $11.99 was the price point, I think a lot of people would jump on that bandwagon.



> There's going to be a lot of shakeout before a fair price to authors, readers and publishers is arrived at. We're just at the beginning of a long process which will be determined by the success of the ebook market.


Supply and demand is the way the market works. If KB is a microcosm of the e-readers in this country, most people will wait until the price drops. The publishers will get the message. Amazon's offer of 70% royalties is a huge step in that direction, also.



> For me, I seldom pay $9.99. I wait for the "paperback" price, just as I did with hardbacks.


Same here. My buying habits haven't changed. There are only a couple of authors that I would buy the hardback. Otherwise, I'll wait for the paperback, even if it takes a year. There are plenty of good books to read while I'm waiting for the price to drop.



> Loved the initial post.
> 
> Betsy


It was great. So, who is hiding behind that nom de plume?


----------



## HappyGuy

Sometimes I ante up full price for a movie (Avatar). Sometimes I wait 6 weeks for it to get to the $2.00 movie house (The proposal). It's a matter of personal perception - do I think the movie is good enough for me to pay the higher price? Same with books - I've paid the higher price for some books (Lord of the Rings Trilogy - hardback version) and waited to pay a lower price for other books (Childhood's End - paperback). It's all a matter of perceived value.

I *really *like paying only $9.99 for new books. Would I be willing to pay more? Sure, for books I thought were worth it. Other books, I'd probably wait until they came down in price, or if they didn't come down, just wouldn't buy them.

But that's just me - YMMV.


----------



## askenase13

Count me in!  I believe that $9.99 is a fair price for fiction.  (I think the equation is completely different for non-fiction research/analysis books like biographies and history.)  AND, I'm looking for a higher royalties to writers than was true under the old regime.  (Sounds like a Mafia family- maybe an analogy that is NOT so out of line.)

I agree with OP- this is a war.  And this is just the first skirmish.  If Amazon caves, you can expect the others of the big 6 to line up as well.  So, this must be fought here.

What really surprises me is the stupidity of macMillan.  Steve Jobs will save publishing?  Like he did for the music industry?  Talk about getting in bed with the devil.  What are they thinking?

So let's use our collective clout.  Post 1 star reviews on ebook delays.  Don't buy fiction at over $9.99.  Send e-mails to AUTHORS because they can put pressure on their publishers.  Support indie authors (if the books are or appear to be good).  Post favorable reviews for good indie books.  Keep writing publishers that you support $9.99 and no delays.

Well, let's do their thinking for them.  This is a major issue- even more than the $9.99 boycott.

Go Amazon.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

askenase13 said:


> So let's use our collective clout. Post 1 star reviews on ebook delays. Don't buy fiction at over $9.99. Send e-mails to AUTHORS because they can put pressure on their publishers. Support indie authors (if the books are or appear to be good). Post favorable reviews for good indie books. Keep writing publishers that you support $9.99 and no delays.


Can't go along with you on the 1 star review thing.  I firmly believe the reviews should be about the book and to do anything else is a disservice to the author and the readers. All the other suggestions are good ones to follow whether you're at war or not.  Especially posting reviews for good indie books--the indie authors need all the support you can give them!

Betsy


----------



## askenase13

I believe that $9.99 is a fair price for fiction.  (I think the equation is completely different for non-fiction research/analysis books like biographies and history.)  AND, I'm looking for a higher royalties to writers than was true under the old regime.  (Sounds like a Mafia family- maybe an analogy that is NOT so out of line.)

I agree with OP- this is a war.  And this is just the first skirmish.  If Amazon caves, you can expect the others of the big 6 to line up as well.  So, this must be fought here.

What really surprises me is the stupidity of macMillan.  Steve Jobs will save publishing?  Like he did for the music industry?  Talk about getting in bed with the devil.  What are they thinking?

So let's use our collective clout.  Post 1 star reviews on ebook delays.  Don't buy fiction at over $9.99.  Send e-mails to AUTHORS because they can put pressure on their publishers.  Support indie authors (if the books are or appear to be good).  Post favorable reviews for good indie books.  Keep writing publishers that you support $9.99 and no delays.

Well, let's do their thinking for them.  This is a major issue- even more than the $9.99 boycott.

Go Amazon.


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## Lyndyb

I agree, Betsy.  I believe reviews should be solely about the product itself.  It's not fair to the author to have their book get poor reviews.  I think (hope) there are more effective ways of protesting, such as simply not buying the books if the price is higher than you wish to pay.  Better yet, maybe we should send an e-mail or letter to say exactly what we think without negatively impacting the reviews of books.


----------



## HappyGuy

Lyndyb said:


> I agree, Betsy. I believe reviews should be solely about the product itself. It's not fair to the author to have their book get poor reviews. I think (hope) there are more effective ways of protesting, such as simply not buying the books if the price is higher than you wish to pay. Better yet, maybe we should send an e-mail or letter to say exactly what we think without negatively impacting the reviews of books.


There are ... give the review the appropriate number of stars, but mention your protest in the body of the review.


----------



## Geoffrey

The language in the initial post made me laugh.  It was just over the top enough to be funny ... 

Regarding the price points, this is a sore point to a lot of people, but I don't really support drawing a line in the sand ... I'll pay what I think a book is worth.  

As for the 1-star reviews, I'm firmly opposed to that.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Geoffrey said:


> As for the 1-star reviews, I'm firmly opposed to that.


Agreed. The star rating is definitely a factor in the purchasing decision. Will I read all the reviews to see why there's a one star rating? Sorry, don't have the time, so I'll skip that book in favor of one that gets better reviews. It's hard enough to get people to review a book, so even a single one star review brings the rating way down if there have only been a couple of reviews.

Of course, I'll skip the book anyway if it's over $7.99, which is the price of a new paperback. My personal price point is $6.39 which is the cost of classic Nora Roberts or Jude Deveraux. I have paid more, but only on a couple of occasions.

The publishers will wake up sooner when they see that 70% of $9.99 pays more than 35% of nothing. Smart move on Amazon's part.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I don't think $9.99 is a realistic sustainable price. . . .though it was great as a way to get folks interested.  I expect when it all settles out the price point for most books will be in the $11 - $13 range.  And that's o.k.  That's still a few dollars off the hardcover price -- as sold at the Big brick and mortar bookstores.  It's a price point at which the publishers will not be so reluctant to release ebooks at the same time as hardcovers.  Another thing that would help would be if ebook sales also counted toward "bestseller" status.

I won't be doing 1 star reviews or actively boycotting based on price. . . .I just don't see the point.  That said, I don't buy many books over, or even as high as $9.99 because it seems I'm lately buying mostly indie authors.  As such, I am 110% in favor of promoting indie authors so that their visibility on Amazon is improved.


----------



## Forster

I'm not a fan of the one star "protest" reviews...at all.  They really, really, really annoy me, even if I agree with the boycott.  I want the reviews to reflect what the book is about not some agenda.  If people want to tag the product for boycott, go for it, just please leave the reviews alone.


----------



## RiddleMeThis

Ann in Arlington said:


> I don't think $9.99 is a realistic sustainable price. . . .though it was great as a way to get folks interested. I expect when it all settles out the price point for most books will be in the $11 - $13 range. And that's o.k. That's still a few dollars off the hardcover price -- as sold at the Big brick and mortar bookstores. It's a price point at which the publishers will not be so reluctant to release ebooks at the same time as hardcovers. Another thing that would help would be if ebook sales also counted toward "bestseller" status.


IMO just a few dollars off a hardcover is NOT o.k. with the current restrictions that are in place. I can resell my hardcover and paperback books. I can lend my DT books. Etc etc etc...

If we get those rights, I will pay more because then the few more dollars are worth it. Until then anything more than $9.99 really isn't worth it.

There is no reason that $9.99 cannot be a sustainable price except that people always want more money.

(BTW I agree with the boycott, do NOT agree with the reviews.)


----------



## rho

Ann in Arlington said:


> I don't think $9.99 is a realistic sustainable price. . . .though it was great as a way to get folks interested. I expect when it all settles out the price point for most books will be in the $11 - $13 range. And that's o.k. That's still a few dollars off the hardcover price -- as sold at the Big brick and mortar bookstores. It's a price point at which the publishers will not be so reluctant to release ebooks at the same time as hardcovers. Another thing that would help would be if ebook sales also counted toward "bestseller" status.
> 
> I won't be doing 1 star reviews or actively boycotting based on price. . . .I just don't see the point. That said, I don't buy many books over, or even as high as $9.99 because it seems I'm lately buying mostly indie authors. As such, I am 110% in favor of promoting indie authors so that their visibility on Amazon is improved.


totally agree with you with one addition - when a book is out as a paperback they should lower the price to at least the same as the paperback -- that way people who want instant gratification can pay the $11 - $13 and those who would wait for the paperback to come out can wait for the lower price. There are a few authors that I MUST have when the come out immediately but most others I will wait for it to be in paperback form or to buy at Costco or BJ's - that would give me the same option with my Kindle.


----------



## Chad Winters

I think pubs should love $9.99 that cuts out resales and loaning but maybe I'm clueless. How much do they make from 1/2 price bookstores and people who buy one book and pass it around to 20 friends?


----------



## sheltiemom

Betsy the Quilter said:


> For me, I seldom pay $9.99. I wait for the "paperback" price, just as I did with hardbacks.


I have bought a few Kindle books for $9.99, but most have been much less. The last paperback I bought was $9.99. It was a murder mystery whose author I have read for years and was not available for the Kindle. Even at a discount store or half-price book store, paperbacks are not as cheap as they used to be.



Geoffrey said:


> As for the 1-star reviews, I'm firmly opposed to that.


Totally agree. The review should be about the book. Notes about the distribution or formatting can be put in the review if necesary.



FearNot said:


> Sometimes I ante up full price for a movie (Avatar). Sometimes I wait 6 weeks for it to get to the $2.00 movie house (The proposal).


I agree; I can't remember the last time I paid full price for a movie. The value to me just isn't there.

I have been thinking a lot about the "perceived" value. I go dancing and take dance classes a couple of times a week. The total cost is about $11 per class, or $11 per hour. How often do I buy a $9.99 e-book that takes me only one hour to read? I still go dancing for social interaction and I still go to the gym for exercise, but if you count cost per hour spent doing the activity, I get more "value" out of my books on my Kindle.


----------



## Chad Winters

Magenta said:


> I disagree. I fear these ridiculous low prices will take money from the authors. Let the publishers charge what they will, if no one buys at the higher price they will be forced to lower it. Just because you are reading it in e-book form does not take away all the work the author put into it. Granted, production cost is lower, but that is only one part of the full cost of a book.
> 
> Why are we treating ebooks different from paperbacks? Did we protest the later release and lower cost of paperbacks? No. Then why do we have these unrealistic expectations for ebooks?
> 
> I don't
> 
> If I must read a book 30 seconds after it comes off the production line, then I will pay the asking price for what ever version is issued.
> 
> I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider the value of the story you are reading and the amount of work that went into creating that story. What are you saying to the author when you refuse to pay more than X for their book? Think about it.


Don't let pub rhetoric ignore the fact that my 9.99 ebook can only be read by me. I can't resell it at the used bookstore or pass it around to 20 friends like I do my DTBs. That has to be worth a few dollars.

I no longer go to the library or the 1/2 price bookstore, the pubs are getting more of my money and should realize that is a good thing.


----------



## Forster

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I think pubs should love $9.99 that cuts out resales and loaning but maybe I'm clueless. How much do they make from 1/2 price bookstores and people who buy one book and pass it around to 20 friends?


That's the part of the equation I think the publishers are missing when determining price. I tell my mom about a good book I just read (no she is not on my Amazon account and won't ever be), can I give her my copy, nope, so she buys her own. What was once a single sale is now two. And it is easy to share books with my mom as we live in the same small town and I see her 3-4 times a week.

The other thing is, at that price point combined with the ease of one-click buying and instant gratification, I have made far, far more impulse buys and at a higher price since getting my Kindle than I ever did before. If the publishers delay the e-book release or significantly raise the price, there go my impulse buys.


----------



## mcl

Magenta said:


> I disagree. I fear these ridiculous low prices will take money from the authors. Let the publishers charge what they will, if no one buys at the higher price they will be forced to lower it. Just because you are reading it in e-book form does not take away all the work the author put into it. Granted, production cost is lower, but that is only one part of the full cost of a book.
> 
> Why are we treating ebooks different from paperbacks? Did we protest the later release and lower cost of paperbacks? No. Then why do we have these unrealistic expectations for ebooks?
> 
> I don't
> 
> If I must read a book 30 seconds after it comes off the production line, then I will pay the asking price for what ever version is issued.
> 
> I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider the value of the story you are reading and the amount of work that went into creating that story. What are you saying to the author when you refuse to pay more than X for their book? Think about it.


Why are we treating ebooks different than paperbacks?

1) Paperbacks are physical items to which you retain right of first sale. ebooks are licenses you cannot resell.
2) Paperbacks can be lent or given to others. Ebooks cannot.
3) Paperbacks require typesetting, production, storage, and distribution. ebooks do not.
4) Macmillan has demonstrated through their new contract terms that their intent is to not only take #3 as profit, but to increase ebook prices while simultaneously lowering the percentage authors receive via ebooks. Macmillan is treating ebooks differently!


----------



## mcl

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Can't go along with you on the 1 star review thing.  I firmly believe the reviews should be about the book and to do anything else is a disservice to the author and the readers. All the other suggestions are good ones to follow whether you're at war or not.  Especially posting reviews for good indie books--the indie authors need all the support you can give them!
> 
> Betsy


I'm not so sure. It's a shame that some authors may be harmed by the review campaign, but those authors chose to do business with those publishers. That choice entails consequences, good and bad. This is one of the bad ones. There's always collateral damage in war. Maybe it'll cause the author to reconsider how their publisher is behaving, and take the issue up with them.

As for the readers? Well, frankly, if it stops a reader from buying the book, either due to enlightenment or due to simple frustration, the goal was achieved.


----------



## MarthaT

Im in


----------



## Ann in Arlington

mcl said:


> . . . . ., but those authors chose to do business with those publishers.


Well. . . . . .maybe. . . .kinda. . . .sorta. . . . .a first time author is not likely to be choosy when a big name publisher agrees to release their book. And they're not really in a position to play hardball. Even successful authors who may want to switch publishers or go indie might have contracts that financially prevent them from doing so. So "chose" is not a good word. . . .more like went with that publisher because it was a foot in the door. Yes, some may be perfectly content, but I don't think we should paint with too broad a brush.

Mind you, I don't really _know_. I have but a sketchy idea of how the publishing industry works, mostly gleaned from 'eavesdropping' on author conversations here on KindleBoards. It just seems to me that once you sign with a publisher, they have you in a pretty tight grip that is not easy to get out of unless you are Big Name Author. . . . . and, they mostly hold all the cards, to mix a metaphor.

Regardless, I won't write 1 star reviews for a very good book just because the publisher is an ostrich who can't see the future.

Not that I write many reviews anyway. . . . . . . .


----------



## skyblue

So what are our options as Kindle readers?  How do we let our voices be heard?  Do we bombard the publisher with e-mails?  Sign a petition?

Any thoughts on how long we will need to wait before we are able to download Macmillan books again?

I just want to read.....


----------



## Forster

skyblue said:


> So what are our options as Kindle readers? How do we let our voices be heard? Do we bombard the publisher with e-mails? Sign a petition?
> 
> Any thoughts on how long we will need to wait before we are able to download Macmillan books again?
> 
> I just want to read.....


I'd just vote with your wallet. Money talks.


----------



## Jeff

mcl said:


> Maybe it'll cause the author to reconsider how their publisher is behaving, and take the issue up with them.


The power in the book publishing industry is the publisher. Once the rights to a book have been sold to a publisher the book essentially belongs to the publisher and, with a few exceptions, the author becomes little more than an employee. Many of the best selling authors have multi-book deals that don't even give them the right to withhold future work.

Publishers have many sources of income. Authors are paid based upon book sales. One star reviews will harm the author far more than the publisher.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well. . . . . .maybe. . . .kinda. . . .sorta. . . . .a first time author is not likely to be choosy when a big name publisher agrees to release their book. And they're not really in a position to play hardball. Even successful authors who may want to switch publishers or go indie might have contracts that financially prevent them from doing so. So "chose" is not a good word. . . .more like went with that publisher because it was a foot in the door. Yes, some may be perfectly content, but I don't think we should paint with too broad a brush.
> 
> Mind you, I don't really _know_. I have but a sketchy idea of how the publishing industry works, mostly gleaned from 'eavesdropping' on author conversations here on KindleBoards. It just seems to me that once you sign with a publisher, they have you in a pretty tight grip that is not easy to get out of unless you are Big Name Author. . . . . and, they mostly hold all the cards, to mix a metaphor.


Even the big name authors have publisher problems. There was a time between Silhouette and Nora Roberts current publisher when she couldn't get a contract. Even now, Silhouette holds the rights to her earlier work including the characters, so no more McGregor series and, the last time I checked, those books were not available on Kindle. Seems like publishers hold on with a very tight fist. The trade-off is help with editing and promotion, although how much they are obligated to promote, I don't know.



> Regardless, I won't write 1 star reviews for a very good book just because the publisher is an ostrich who can't see the future.
> 
> Not that I write many reviews anyway. . . . . . . .


I think the proper place for protest is in the tags or inside the review itself or in the title of the review.

Ann, love your use of the word "ostrich." I don't know if you intended for it to be a euphemism, but it jumped at me that way.


----------



## Pirate

FearNot said:


> Sometimes I ante up full price for a movie (Avatar). Sometimes I wait 6 weeks for it to get to the $2.00 movie house (The proposal). It's a matter of personal perception - do I think the movie is good enough for me to pay the higher price? Same with books - I've paid the higher price for some books (Lord of the Rings Trilogy - hardback version) and waited to pay a lower price for other books (Childhood's End - paperback). It's all a matter of perceived value.
> 
> I *really *like paying only $9.99 for new books. Would I be willing to pay more? Sure, for books I thought were worth it. Other books, I'd probably wait until they came down in price, or if they didn't come down, just wouldn't buy them.
> 
> But that's just me - YMMV.


Most of the reading I do is for pleasure..Mostly Sci-Fi and I will never pay more than $9.99. I will wait for the paperback at a reduced price, usually $5-7. I actually buy used books from Amazon for some of the older titles.

Pirate


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

mcl said:


> I'm not so sure. It's a shame that some authors may be harmed by the review campaign, but those authors chose to do business with those publishers.


For an author, getting picked up by a major publishing house is like winning the lottery: only one out of thousands of hopefuls is chosen, and only a handful of those ever become recognizable names. Very, VERY few authors ever have any real choice between publishers: they go with whomever offers them the first (hopefully reasonable) contract, and that's usually after the author and/or the agent has done a huge amount of work to get that far, beyond the actual writing. It's not like an author can just pick up and go to another publisher: they have contractual obligations (and need the money to pay their bills, just like the rest of us), and other publishers aren't going to just snap somebody up, unless they're already a big name, even if they didn't have to worry about those pesky contract issus.

And I'm sorry, but I'm totally, unequivocally against giving bad reviews to a book or product because the buyer has an issue with the company that controls the product. As one of the other folks noted, make your review of the book objective (both stars and text), but feel free to add a blurb or tags indicating that you don't care for the company's policies, if that's what you want to do. But slamming an otherwise good book because you don't like the publisher doesn't do any good for anyone.


----------



## mcl

kreelanwarrior said:


> For an author, getting picked up by a major publishing house is like winning the lottery: only one out of thousands of hopefuls is chosen, and only a handful of those ever become recognizable names. Very, VERY few authors ever have any real choice between publishers: they go with whomever offers them the first (hopefully reasonable) contract, and that's usually after the author and/or the agent has done a huge amount of work to get that far, beyond the actual writing. It's not like an author can just pick up and go to another publisher: they have contractual obligations (and need the money to pay their bills, just like the rest of us), and other publishers aren't going to just snap somebody up, unless they're already a big name, even if they didn't have to worry about those pesky contract issus.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but I'm totally, unequivocally against giving bad reviews to a book or product because the buyer has an issue with the company that controls the product. As one of the other folks noted, make your review of the book objective (both stars and text), but feel free to add a blurb or tags indicating that you don't care for the company's policies, if that's what you want to do. But slamming an otherwise good book because you don't like the publisher doesn't do any good for anyone.


So, authors jump at the first publisher to vaguely lift their skirts in the author's direction? And we're supposed to have sympathy for this kind of behavior?

Sure, it's fine when everyone behaves. But when a publisher steps out of line, suddenly the only guilty party is the publisher, even though the author entered into a legally binding contract asking -- nay, requiring -- the publisher to represent the author and to act on the author's behalf.

I'm sorry, but "I didn't know he was going to act that way" isn't usually a very good defense when it comes to contracts. At least Scalzi had the temerity to stand up and defend the actions of his publisher. Don't equivocate and claim it's not the author's problem, or that they didn't know any better. Either stand behind the publisher who represents you, or admit that the choice of publisher wasn't perhaps the best, and roll with the punches.

Do I feel bad for any authors hurt by this? Yes, I do.

Do I believe the author had a choice when deciding whether or not to sign that paper? Yes, I do.


----------



## Jeff

mcl said:


> So, authors jump at the first publisher to vaguely lift their skirts in the author's direction? And we're supposed to have sympathy for this kind of behavior?


Sympathy? No. But until you've sent hundreds of manuscripts and query letters and received an equal number of rejections you cannot possibly understand how it feels to finally get an offer from a publisher.


----------



## threeundertwo

I also feel that tags are the most appropriate place to lodge complaints against books.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Even if I agree with the premise that authors should be blamed and take consequences for the bad behavior (if that's what it is) of their publishers (and I don't agree), the fact is that the books that are now appearing on Kindle were written by authors under contracts signed long before the issue of delayed publication of ebooks came up. It is simply not right to blame someone for something they have no control over. <shrug> My opinion.

Betsy


----------



## Ann in Arlington

skyblue said:


> I just want to read.....


There are a bunch of indie authors who have _lots_ of books you can read. . . .head over to the Book Bazaar and check 'em out.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

mcl said:


> So, authors jump at the first publisher to vaguely lift their skirts in the author's direction? And we're supposed to have sympathy for this kind of behavior?


I'll simply add a heartfelt "ditto" to Jeff's comment on this one...



> Sure, it's fine when everyone behaves. But when a publisher steps out of line, suddenly the only guilty party is the publisher, even though the author entered into a legally binding contract asking -- nay, requiring -- the publisher to represent the author and to act on the author's behalf.


So, if the leadership of your company or organization - where you are just a contract employee without any say in the process - goes out and does something untoward, you, too, are "guilty"? Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. You're making it sound like the authors have some sort of power over a publisher's decisions: that's no more true in the publishing industry (other than the influence of the biggest names, and even that is probably very limited) than it is anywhere else. You make it sound like authors are supposed to have some sort of crystal ball to see if their publisher is going to do something stupid *after* the contract is signed...

Yes, if an author signs with a house that has already done something untoward and/or has a reputation for such, then they're accepting a measure of risk for associating themselves with that company. But how many authors do you think that amounts to for MacMillan in the last couple days? Probably not a whole lot. Even at that, I'm not going to condemn an author for going with MacMillan or anyone else if they can get a decent contract: most of them have worked their fingers to the bone, in some cases for years, to make that opportunity happen. While I'm no happier than anyone else about the whole thing, I say power to 'em - I just hope that MacMillan will continue to be around long enough that the authors will be able to enjoy long writing careers...


----------



## Pirate

I just checked one of the series I have read, Old Man's war, and you can still order it from a third party vendor, ie, used book stores. 
From now on I will never buy a new Macmillan book if I can get it used. Yes I know this hurts the author as well. Actions have consequences and it is time for the authors to tell Macmillan that their, Macmillan, actions hurt them as well. Especially since Amazon announced just a couple of days ago that they are changing their pricing structure to give the author more money. I had planned to wait to see what the new K3 or DX2 would offer, as well as the Asus eBook reader that is coming out, had to offer before I gave serious thought to an iPod. Now I will never buy any Apple product, never ever.

Pirate


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## Shastastan

Magenta said:


> Ugh....I'm so tired of these pricing wars. Just let them sell the darned books at what ever price they want. If the price is too high, no one will buy it and they will be forced to lower it.


Bump


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## Shastastan

Forster said:


> I'm not a fan of the one star "protest" reviews...at all. They really, really, really annoy me, even if I agree with the boycott. I want the reviews to reflect what the book is about not some agenda. If people want to tag the product for boycott, go for it, just please leave the reviews alone.


Bump


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## MichelleR

Forster said:


> I'm not a fan of the one star "protest" reviews...at all. They really, really, really annoy me, even if I agree with the boycott. I want the reviews to reflect what the book is about not some agenda. If people want to tag the product for boycott, go for it, just please leave the reviews alone.


Very much agree with this. I think that anything a potential buyer could judge before purchasing can be mentioned in a review, but shouldn't go into the rating. So, if the review is comprised of those things, they're harmful -- even if I agree with the reviewer.


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## anivyl

i can't believe how many people have posted since i last did! I think we all feel very passionately about this, and this is awesome (if only MM sees this).

anyways, on topic, and what I feel like saying: 

I agree that in this time and space, 9.99 does not appear to be a lasting price for books. I mean, even Itunes music at 0.99 didn't last very long hahaha. Although, to put it simply, I believe we all have budgets for books and I am glad that Kindle existed because if I couldn't afford the 9.99 books, I have similar ebooks at $5 or $4 and so on and so forth.

What MM has failed to see is that Kindle brought many new books, authors and genres to people who might not be so willing to spend extra $$ on people or genres they have never seen before, or tested, or feel strongly about. Prior to my Kindle, I have only read Harry Potter and David Eddings books with any form of regularity. Crime thrillers were only bought if they were under $10 in second hand book stores or garage sales. same with other genres with interesting storylines.

the kindle changed all that, and I am sure I am not the only one. This translates to alot of possible $$ in the long run even if the short-term effects seems scary, inflexible and uncontrollable. This also means different marketing techniques, and what they are viewing is probably something entirely uncomfortable to them, e.g some authors/publishers have gone the route of offering new books for free for a short period of time to create interest.

Indeed, the mindset is terribly old fashion, and I am wondering if they realise that they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

yes, Amazon is not quite doing it right either in a very "bully" sort of way. at the same time, the same way as apple did it previously, it sends a clear message across. Not to mention, MM would then notice that THEIR BOOK SALES AREN'T REALLY GOING SMOOTHLY ANYWAYS. No one is about to suddenly walk out and buy a hardcover book because they can't get it on kindle. similarly, no one will buy ebooks at $14.99 if it costs the same for a physical book - that you can sit on the shelf and not have to worry that your 10 hour battery might suddenly fail on you.

and did anyone notice that ipad is still another 60 days away from actual sales launch? 60 days is not a long time, but it's long enough to drop someone's market share.

there are loyal readers... but everyone has financial concerns one way or another. I have only just started reading Robert Jordan's wheel of time, like I mentioned. and I would love to read more. however, I can't justify a full hour's pay for that instead of, say, food or bills. so, I am off to find other satisfaction - because I CAN with my pittance.


----------



## drenee

The sad point in this whole Amazon/MacMillan mess is that Kindle is getting bashed.  (On FB, among others.)
One person commented that she was glad she had a Nook on backorder, which struck me as incredibly hyterical.
She's happy she has an item on order that she cannot currently read on rather than have a device in her hand 
where she could still be reading thousands of books.  Some people's reasoning leaves much to be desired.

deb


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## Jesslyn

*Awesome* article by Joe Konrath on his blog re this whole mess. He even includes a screenshot of his ebook earning.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html


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## MichelleR

Forster said:


> That's the part of the equation I think the publishers are missing when determining price. I tell my mom about a good book I just read (no she is not on my Amazon account and won't ever be), can I give her my copy, nope, so she buys her own. What was once a single sale is now two. And it is easy to share books with my mom as we live in the same small town and I see her 3-4 times a week.


I'm just going to spend the day agreeing with you, if that's okay?

My grandmother lives with me, but she has no interest in a Kindle. She reads more than I do. It's my sworn duty as her granddaughter to keep her in books. That means I buy her books. That means two sales to the same household. That means other book purchases as gifts.

Kindles, especially in this stage when they're not the norm, add sales as people buy "traditional" copies for friends and family. For many of us, it's not an either/or -- we read in Kindle format. The paper copies are additional purchases. Hardcovers and paperbacks might compete, but I don't think Kindle and print are competitors in most cases.


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## drenee

Wow....thank you for posting.  You're right.  This is an AWESOME article.
deb


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## koland

Pirate said:


> ...Yes I know this hurts the author as well. Actions have consequences and it is time for the authors to tell Macmillan that their, Macmillan, actions hurt them as well. Especially since Amazon announced just a couple of days ago that they are changing their pricing structure to give the author more money....


MM really doesn't care about the authors - they offer one of the lowest royalty rates out there (20% on ebooks vs the 25% that others dropped down to) and are setting up to offer direct ebooks (where rates drop lower, to 10% up to a certain number of copies, the 15% after that ... an improvement over direct sales of paper books, but the extra 30-50% of the sales price that they keep in a direct to consumer sale more than pays for the overhead of a ebookstore).

They also don't care much about their end customers, at least those that read ebooks - some houses (tor) have no ebook versions at all, others are all priced substantially higher than the paper books (after all, why wouldn't we be "glad" to pay more for a more limited product?) and the price never drops even after the book is out as a mass market paperback.

On the other hand, they represent only a small portion of authors (who are all free to vote with their wallets, as well, once their contracts are up). I may miss a book or two, but can probably find it used for very little or at Walmart discounted even more than the Kindle version were, if it is something I absolutely _must_ read. But there is little that will be in that category - I looked and none of my current pre-orders are affected. Nor are the hundreds of books I already have (paper and e) that I have read yet.


----------



## threeundertwo

Jesslyn said:


> *Awesome* article by Joe Konrath on his blog re this whole mess. He even includes a screenshot of his ebook earning.
> 
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html


Excellent article. Thanks!


----------



## CegAbq

Really, really great blog post. Thanks for posting the link.



Jesslyn said:


> *Awesome* article by Joe Konrath on his blog re this whole mess. He even includes a screenshot of his ebook earning.
> 
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html


----------



## Magenta

How on earth did this discussion devolve into one blaming authors for the publishers they chose? *To go around voting down books or blaming authors is just plain wrong.*

If you don't want to pay more than $9.99 for an ebook, then don't! You are free to make that choice.

If an ebook version is not available..... then buy the paperback or hardcover! Isn't it about wanting to *READ?*

If you are concerned about "ownership rights" - then don't buy ebooks - by the paperback or hardcover version!!

So what if Amazon removed books by a particular publisher... if you want to read one of those books bad enough, go to a book store and buy it!

I protest this protest!

I will continue to purchase books in any format at any price I feel like paying.


----------



## Leslie

drenee said:


> The sad point in this whole Amazon/MacMillan mess is that Kindle is getting bashed. (On FB, among others.)
> One person commented that she was glad she had a Nook on backorder, which struck me as incredibly hyterical.
> She's happy she has an item on order that she cannot currently read on rather than have a device in her hand
> where she could still be reading thousands of books. Some people's reasoning leaves much to be desired.
> 
> deb


Thank you for posting this, Deb. I wonder the same thing. In these arguments, Amazon is always painted as the evil empire and Jeff Bezos is the devil incarnate. Why? I don't get it. I just got an email on a list I am on and someone said, "Amazon is a loathsome company to deal with." Huh? That's certainly not my experience. On other blogs, everyone is getting on the "boycott Amazon" bandwagon. I really think, if anyone is going to point fingers at a bad guy, it should be Steve Jobs. This is the man who dismissed ereaders out of hand and said that "no one reads anymore...the vast majority of people only read one book a year." Yeah, right, Steve. I think he's the one who wants to set the $14.99 price point and is really the puppet master behind this whole mess.

That's my opinion for the moment. It may change, of course...LOL

L


----------



## fairoasis

Jesslyn said:


> *Awesome* article by Joe Konrath on his blog re this whole mess. He even includes a screenshot of his ebook earning.
> 
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html


Thanks for sharing this blog post. Now, will anyone listen?


----------



## 911jason

Leslie said:


> I really think, if anyone is going to point fingers at a bad guy, it should be Steve Jobs. This is the man who dismissed ereaders out of hand and said that "no one reads anymore...the vast majority of people only read one book a year." Yeah, right, Steve. I think he's the one who wants to set the $14.99 price point and is really the puppet master behind this whole mess.


I just posted in another thread, I wonder if Steve Jobs' new-found enthusiasm for reading came about around the same time that Amazon opened it's mp3 store to compete with iTunes?


----------



## Silver

Here's a quickie comment.  I've read through this thread completely, and am struck again by one of my very favorite things about KB.  This is. or could be, a highly emotionally charged issue - publishers/prices/authors/choices.  Every single poster here has stated his or her opinion, even when diametrically opposed to other posters, calmly and politely.  No flames, no screaming.  This is just the bestest ever place to discuss all kinds of e-stuff (and other stuff).


----------



## klopus

911jason said:


> P.S. You can always send monetary donations to your favorite author if you think they are in danger of the welfare lines.


And in your line of work would you want to receive minimal wages and then depend on voluntary donations to keep you out of welfare?


----------



## klopus

Magenta said:


> How on earth did this discussion devolve into one blaming authors for the publishers they chose? *To go around voting down books or blaming authors is just plain wrong.*
> 
> If you don't want to pay more than $9.99 for an ebook, then don't! You are free to make that choice.


Exactly! Vote with you wallet and let then market work. Next thing we see OP will demand government to set "fair" book prices and get into publishing like they already did it with cars


----------



## Dollmaker

I just pulled up MacMillan web page and was very amused to see the featured book is *Priceless, The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It)*. It is about pricing products. In the blurb about it is this statement:

"The answer is simple: prices are a collective hallucination."

Kind of apropos isn't it. Is this their attitude? MacMillan's? How odd to feature it now.


----------



## marianneg

Betsy the Quilter said:


> So years ago, when people were dreaming of ebooks, $10 was the price dreamed of paying? Or was it when Amazon arbitrarily said books on the NY Times bestseller lists would be $9.99 that it was determined that this is the correct price?


That's exactly what I was thinking, Betsy. I really don't get the vitriol. Book too expensive? Don't buy it. As I think Magenta said, if nobody buys at $14.99, they'll lower the price. The sense of entitlement, though, that you _deserve_ the latest bestseller _immediately_, and at a discount price, is pretty sickening to me. If it's too expensive, do what you did before the Kindle and wait for the paperback.


----------



## 911jason

klopus said:


> And in your line of work would you want to receive minimal wages and then depend on voluntary donations to keep you out of welfare?


You take my quote out of context and without the prior post that I was responding to included. The authors cannot blame me that their contract doesn't give them a larger percentage of the book sale. I don't feel the need to pay artificially bloated prices for an electronic file that I don't even own just to put more money in the author's pocket and to prevent the publisher from having to move into the modern era. I'd love to pay the whole $10 directly to the author if they'd like to e-mail me the book directly! =)


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## Rasputina

I can't take drama queen stuff like the statements in the OP seriously. 

Day of infamy, get serious this isn't D day or Pearl Harbor


----------



## nabrum

marianner said:


> Book too expensive? Don't buy it. As I think Magenta said, if nobody buys at $14.99, they'll lower the price.


You're missing the main point in this War. It's just not the $15 price. It's McMillan telling Amazon they will no longer be INDEPENDENT resellers, ie, their business, but will in fact be agents (employees) of MM. Being an "agent" gets them out of price fixing antitrust lawsuits. Next step is tell B&N no more 20% off stickers on hardbacks. Etc/etc/etc. You had better wake up to what is REALLY going on here.

It wouldn't surprise me if MM would love that no one bought ebooks, as then then could keep their last century business model in place.


----------



## mcl

kreelanwarrior said:


> I'll simply add a heartfelt "ditto" to Jeff's comment on this one...
> 
> So, if the leadership of your company or organization - where you are just a contract employee without any say in the process - goes out and does something untoward, you, too, are "guilty"? Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. You're making it sound like the authors have some sort of power over a publisher's decisions: that's no more true in the publishing industry (other than the influence of the biggest names, and even that is probably very limited) than it is anywhere else. You make it sound like authors are supposed to have some sort of crystal ball to see if their publisher is going to do something stupid *after* the contract is signed...
> 
> Yes, if an author signs with a house that has already done something untoward and/or has a reputation for such, then they're accepting a measure of risk for associating themselves with that company. But how many authors do you think that amounts to for MacMillan in the last couple days? Probably not a whole lot. Even at that, I'm not going to condemn an author for going with MacMillan or anyone else if they can get a decent contract: most of them have worked their fingers to the bone, in some cases for years, to make that opportunity happen. While I'm no happier than anyone else about the whole thing, I say power to 'em - I just hope that MacMillan will continue to be around long enough that the authors will be able to enjoy long writing careers...


Yes, the authors have power. Publishers only exist because they have content to distribute, promote, and profit from. Who provides that content? Authors. Without authors, publishers cannot exist.


----------



## VictoriaP

Dollmaker said:


> I just pulled up MacMillan web page and was very amused to see the featured book is *Priceless, The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It)*. It is about pricing products. In the blurb about it is this statement:
> 
> "The answer is simple: prices are a collective hallucination."
> 
> Kind of apropos isn't it. Is this their attitude? MacMillan's? How odd to feature it now.


OK, this is fabulous. Best laugh I've had all day.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

mcl said:


> Yes, the authors have power. Publishers only exist because they have content to distribute, promote, and profit from. Who provides that content? Authors. Without authors, publishers cannot exist.


And if authors leaves a publishing house, there are always thousands waiting in line to take their place.


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## mcl

This says it better than I could: http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html

And it fully illustrates the choice authors have: they don't have to sign that contract at all. They could make more money selling directly, at much lower prices, than they would through that big, glamorous publishing house. Independent filmmakers and musicians have been discovering this over the course of the past decade. Now it's the authors' turn.

All of these businesses built on the idea of being the middleman between content producers and content consumers will eventually wither and die. What we're witnessing with Macmillan is just the beginnings of the death throes. Authors who are hurt by such behavior always have other choices. Not with anything to which they signed the rights away (and that was a poor choice to begin with), but with future works.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Dollmaker said:


> I just pulled up MacMillan web page and was very amused to see the featured book is *Priceless, The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It)*. It is about pricing products. In the blurb about it is this statement:
> 
> "The answer is simple: prices are a collective hallucination."
> 
> Kind of apropos isn't it. Is this their attitude? MacMillan's? How odd to feature it now.


Check out "anchoring bias". Giving a suggested price, even one that is ridiculous, affects people's subsequent evaluations of what something is worth. At least one experiment I read about (sorry, don't have a cite) showed that giving people a random price figure (that the subjects knew was totally random and meaningless, such as having them roll dice to generate the figure) before choosing a price to bid on an item had a substantial effect on what they evaluated the item as being worth. From the publisher's world view, what Amazon has been doing with their $9.99 price has been a disaster. I'm surprised it took this long for a major publisher to respond. I say this even though I think the publishers are on the wrong side of history, and that the publishers will actually do better selling more books at a lower price point than trying to maintain hardback prices for ebooks. Though it will be a disaster for brick-and-mortar booksellers.


----------



## mcl

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> And if authors leaves a publishing house, there are always thousands waiting in line to take their place.


And those thousands will suffer just as those who left. And so on, until the publisher adapts to the changing times and technology, or dies. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is utterly apropos in this situation.

You can't just excuse Luddism and shortsightedness by claiming, "everyone else is doing it," "it's the way it's always been done," or, "others will just take their place." Saying that others will attempt to make money from abysmal behavior is no excuse for joining in, if one has any morals or spine whatsoever.


----------



## cleee

I really don't understand all this rage at publishers. Let them price their books at whatever they want. It's up to consumers to exercise restraint and a little self control and just not buy if they feel the price is too high. If that happens enough, they will be forced to lower prices. On the other hand, if a consumer is dying to read a particular book, then they will pay the price to have it as soon as it comes out.

I have a bunch of books on my mental "want list" that I will not buy unless the price comes down. There are others that I have paid more than $9.99 for in order to have it right away. That was my choice and if there was a McMillan book that I wanted that cost $19.99 I'd buy it. Amazon has removed that option for readers willing to pay. To me, no one benefits from this.


----------



## Magenta

NY Times blog updated with new and interesting information.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/amazon-pulls-macmillan-books-over-e-book-price-disagreement/?ref=technology


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## Shastastan

I subscribe to Bufo Calvin's "I Love My Kindle" blog.  He wrote a very interesting article today about some future directions this issue may go in.  This issue is about power and money, IMHO.  The publishers are gambling that Amazon ereader sales will fizzle out and be taken up by others such as Apple, Sony, and B-N.  Although there are a lot of folks who read books, a lot of them do not.  I'm reading 10 times more since I bought a Kindle than I did before.  Yeah, that means I'm buying a lot more books. So is the purchase of 9 ebooks better than the purchase of 1 DTB paperback?  Are some sales better than no sales?  Apparently the publishers are not concerned about this and are happy with the "business model" from the old days?  Oh well, as Ann points out, there are still lots of books for us to read.  There will also be other markets to buy the "best sellers" too, ebooks included.  I'm not so sure this is going to blow over any time soon. FWIW.


----------



## VondaZ

Amazon is not the bad guy here – and that anger is misdirected. They are not a saint and trying to protect us, either. Amazon is really just being smart and logical and trying to protect their business interests. Amazon's whole business model has been based on competitive pricing. They lower their costs to do business so they can pass some of the savings on to the consumer and get market share.

Macmillan is demanding that they determine Amazon’s prices for their books. That goes against everything Amazon is (and other larger retails as well - can anyone say Walmart?). If all retailers are forced to price the identical product the same, Amazon loses one of their biggest strategic advantages on the very product they have been investing their future in. It is common practice to take a loss on some items to bring in customers who will then spend on other things, and Amazon should not give up this right.

If I were Amazon, I would not give in to a demand that undercuts their primary business philosophy. The publishers have a right to charge Amazon whatever they decide for ebooks. I fully support their right to charge as much for their books as they like and sink or swim with their decision. I don’t give a darn about saving any particular price point. I can make up my own mind about what a book is worth to me. But Amazon then has the right to charge the customer whatever it wants – and should not accept an ultimatum from a publisher that restricts their right to do this. Over time, a price point will be reached all on its own dictated by the market where Amazon no longer loses money on ebooks and the publishers maximize their profits. (NOTE: Amazon really only loses money on the best sellers, by the way. All the other works out there do bring them a profit – so not all e-books are a loss leader for them. I buy more older works than I do best sellers by a long shot, so Amazon is still making money on most of their ebook titles).

The alternative Amazon was offered was that they wait seven months to release new titles. That essentially wipes out Amazon’s ability to sell best sellers in e-book format. If they accepted that offer, you could bet a competitor would step in and start selling those books at the publisher dictated prices (even if illegal – a court battle would take forever to straighten it out). Since Amazon is betting on the future of ebooks, they would be foolish to accept that alternative and give up all that business to the competition without a fight.

If Amazon did cave to Macmillan by accepting either offer, you would have all the other publishers following suit. So Amazon needed to respond now. Amazon has made its position clear that neither solution is acceptable and is striking back at Macmillan the only way it can – with its clout. If Macmillan is going to make these demands, Amazon will not sell Macmillan books at all. 

People can rip on Amazon all they want, but that is really the only choice they had – play hardball and hit Macmillan where it hurts – their paper book sales. It is a risk, but everything else was a loss for them. The Apple store is not going to help Macmillan recover lost paper book sales as Apple has no paper book business. I am sure Amazon does not want to lose those paper book sales either, but this is the only option they were left with – and they are betting they can weather the loss better than Macmillan can. Amazon is no more the bad guy here than Macmillan – it is just trying to preserve its business just like Macmillan is. The difference to me is that this is the only smart decision Amazon could make. But it is not a smart decision for Macmillan – they have other options, but apparently don’t really know how to protect their interests as they are too afraid of the changes in publishing to figure out how to truly profit by them.


----------



## Susan B

http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx2MEGQWTNGIMHV&displayType=tagsDeta

Official news from 
Amazon.


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## Rasputina

I love Amazon and have spent a ton of money in their store, but it's not going to stop me from buying a book I really want. If I have to I can buy from a million other retailers both locally and online as Amazon doesn't have exclusive rights to MacMillans books.


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## Magenta

Susan B said:


> http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx2MEGQWTNGIMHV&displayType=tagsDeta
> 
> Official news from
> Amazon.


Excerpt from post:

_We have expressed our strong disagreement and the seriousness of our disagreement by temporarily ceasing the sale of all Macmillan titles. We want you to know that ultimately, however, we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own titles, and we will want to offer them to you even at prices we believe are needlessly high for e-books. *Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book.*_

EXACTLY!!!


----------



## Rasputina

Susan B said:


> http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx2MEGQWTNGIMHV&displayType=tagsDeta
> 
> Official news from
> Amazon.


We have expressed our strong disagreement and the seriousness of our disagreement by temporarily ceasing the sale of all Macmillan titles. We want you to know that ultimately, however, we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own titles, and we will want to offer them to you even at prices we believe are needlessly high for e-books. Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book.

They seem to be implying they have chosen the higher price structure over the window option that Macmillan offered of waiting 7 months for ebook versions.

interesting.

If they really believed that the high priced agency option was so "needlessly high" why not just go for the waiting period?


----------



## Magenta

Rasputina said:


> We have expressed our strong disagreement and the seriousness of our disagreement by temporarily ceasing the sale of all Macmillan titles. We want you to know that ultimately, however, we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own titles, and we will want to offer them to you even at prices we believe are needlessly high for e-books. Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book.
> 
> They seem to be implying they have chosen the higher price structure over the window option that Macmillan offered of waiting 7 months for ebook versions.
> 
> interesting.


...and isn't that exactly what many Kindle owners have complained about.... having to wait? Amazon is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.


----------



## Forster

Magenta said:


> Excerpt from post:
> 
> _We have expressed our strong disagreement and the seriousness of our disagreement by temporarily ceasing the sale of all Macmillan titles. We want you to know that ultimately, however, we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own titles, and we will want to offer them to you even at prices we believe are needlessly high for e-books. *Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book.*_
> 
> EXACTLY!!!


And we will, lol.

Here's to hoping it's already way too late for the publishers to change the $9.99 price point for new e-books without significant backlash from the consumer. Amazon has deftly shifted the blame from them to McMillan for this.


----------



## mcl

if this keeps up, I'm thinking about expressing my strong disagreement by returning my Kindle.


----------



## Forster

Magenta said:


> ...and isn't that exactly what many Kindle owners have complained about.... having to wait? Amazon is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.


Nothing wrong with paying a higher price for a new release, those that wait should expect a lower e-book price when the paperback comes out.


----------



## mcl

Forster said:


> Nothing wrong with paying a higher price for a new release, those that wait should expect a lower e-book price when the paperback comes out.


And when the publishers decide to price the ebooks above the paperback price, to preserve their dead-tree business? What then? We'll either be forced to pay the higher prices, or forced to acknowledge that we own a technological paperweight that we paid at least $250 for, because we're unwilling to pay more for a digital license to content than we are for a physical object containing the same content.

This is the beginning of a slippery slope. At the bottom of that slope are a bunch of discarded Kindles.


----------



## Forster

mcl said:


> if this keeps up, I'm thinking about expressing my strong disagreement by returning my Kindle.


I'll never give my Kindle up, way, way too many other e-books out there at good prices to get upset because of the heavy handedness of a few big publishing houses. Giving up my Kindle would be akin to cutting off my nose to spite my face.


----------



## Forster

mcl said:


> And when the publishers decide to price the ebooks above the paperback price, to preserve their dead-tree business? What then? We'll either be forced to pay the higher prices, or forced to acknowledge that we own a technological paperweight that we paid at least $250 for, because we're unwilling to pay more for a digital license to content than we are for a physical object containing the same content.
> 
> This is the beginning of a slippery slope. At the bottom of that slope are a bunch of discarded Kindles.


Not going to happen.


----------



## brainstorm

All this war talk....we have a manifesto, a call to arms, people readily enlisting for the cause, conscientious objectors, sabotage (Kindle one-star protesters), collateral damage (authors). It's getting scary on this board.


----------



## Forster

brainstorm said:


> All this war talk....we have a manifesto, a call to arms, people readily enlisting for the cause, conscientious objectors, sabotage (Kindle one-star protesters), collateral damage (authors). It's getting scary on this board.


It's now time to lay siege to the big publishing houses. Surround them don't send any money in and bring them to their knees begging for surrender, lol.


----------



## mcl

Forster said:


> Not going to happen.


You would've said the same thing last week about one of the big 6 publishers having all deadtree and digital books yanked from Amazon. You would have said the same thing last week about $15 becoming the new standard price for ebooks.

Forgive me if I don't share your too-optimistic worldview.

I just bought my Kindle. With the specter of most titles' prices increasing by 50%, I have no problem returning it, along with a nice little note to Bezos as to why (along with a few stern phrases expressing my displeasure over today's capitulation, which just makes the entire ordeal nothing more than posturing on Amazon's part).

i bought the Kindle so I could pay less than or equal to the price printed on the cover of the books I could go out, buy, and hold in my hand. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay MORE.


----------



## Rasputina

So basically Amazon chose to be Blockbuster instead of Netflix when faced with the same decision. LOL


Brainstorm LOL


----------



## Rasputina

mcl said:


> You would've said the same thing last week about one of the big 6 publishers having all deadtree and digital books yanked from Amazon. You would have said the same thing last week about $15 becoming the new standard price for ebooks.
> 
> Forgive me if I don't share your too-optimistic worldview.


Don't you know the perfect of world of 9.99 ebooks would have lived on in perpetuity if not for big evil Apple

/sarcasm off

LOL


----------



## Magenta

Publishers should consider entirely abandoning the DTB business for certain types of books.   Why not publish directly to ebook?  And I do not mean self publishing by authors.  There are still all the editing and marketing tasks from which authors could benefit.

I bet the decision to accept a manuscript for "straight to ebook" could be made much easier knowing production costs would be lowered.  Just think how many new authors could be brought to market.  

There are so many possibilities to reinvent the publishing business model but too many closed minds seem to be running the industry.


----------



## Dankinia

Forster said:


> Nothing wrong with paying a higher price for a new release, those that wait should expect a lower e-book price when the paperback comes out.


I rarely ever bought hard-backed books due to the cost. I buy way too many books to pay $15 plus a title. If they lower the ebook price when the paperback is released, I have no problem with waiting.


----------



## Cora

The article does state:

Macmillan, one of the "big six" publishers, has clearly communicated to us that, regardless of our viewpoint, they are committed to switching to an agency model and charging *$12.99 to $14.99 for e-book versions of bestsellers and most hardcover releases*.

So perhaps the prices would drop once the paperbacks come out. I mean, a hardcover is typically listed around $25 or so, right? And paperbacks around $8.99? I haven't been to the bookstore in a while, so I'm not sure *sheepish grin*. I mean, I wouldn't mind spending more for a book as soon as it was published. But it would also be good for the price to drop after it went paperback. Here's to hoping.


----------



## mcl

Cora said:


> The article does state:
> 
> Macmillan, one of the "big six" publishers, has clearly communicated to us that, regardless of our viewpoint, they are committed to switching to an agency model and charging *$12.99 to $14.99 for e-book versions of bestsellers and most hardcover releases*.
> 
> So perhaps the prices would drop once the paperbacks come out. I mean, a hardcover is typically listed around $25 or so, right? And paperbacks around $8.99? I haven't been to the bookstore in a while, so I'm not sure *sheepish grin*. I mean, I wouldn't mind spending more for a book as soon as it was published. But it would also be good for the price to drop after it went paperback. Here's to hoping.


People are assuming that the price WILL drop, and do so in a timely fashion.

let's review a bit about Macmillan here: Late last year, they decided to reduce the amount of money authors make from ebooks by 5%. They stated the reason was because they were afraid ebook prices would go down. Now, they're trying to force everyone (not just amazon) into an agency model to charge significantly more for ebooks, something for which they were already making a hefty margin, due to the lack of printing, storage, distribution, and return costs. In short, they just vastly increased their margin by screwing both readers and authors.

Does that sound like the type of company that's going to be in any rush to lower the price of a title? Don't forget that under the agency model, it is macmillan, NOT amazon, that will be setting the prices going forward.


----------



## Leslie

Am I the only one who thinks it is a little strange that Amazon is making major corporate communications, including the fact that they will likely capitulate to Macmillan's agency model pricing demand, on a customer discussion board?
  

L


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Leslie said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it is a little strange that Amazon is making major corporate communications, including the fact that they will likely capitulate to Macmillan's agency model pricing demand, on a customer discussion board?
> 
> 
> L


Sounds to me like they want the customers to start expressing their displeasure directly to MacMillan or at least gather enough comments to pass on.


----------



## Forster

mcl said:


> You would've said the same thing last week about one of the big 6 publishers having all deadtree and digital books yanked from Amazon. You would have said the same thing last week about $15 becoming the new standard price for ebooks.
> 
> Forgive me if I don't share your too-optimistic worldview.
> 
> I just bought my Kindle. With the specter of most titles' prices increasing by 50%, I have no problem returning it, along with a nice little note to Bezos as to why (along with a few stern phrases expressing my displeasure over today's capitulation, which just makes the entire ordeal nothing more than posturing on Amazon's part).
> 
> i bought the Kindle so I could pay less than or equal to the price printed on the cover of the books I could go out, buy, and hold in my hand. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay MORE.


If you feel that strongly about it, by all means turn your kindle back, you most certainly may be right. However, I really don't think I'm being overly optimistic. The market has changed for most e-book readers (people not devices), if a publisher refuses to offer reasonable prices (subjective I know) on e-books or no e-book version for that matter, they've lost me as a customer. I'm not as price conscious as most readers and if there is something I want I will buy it, but I still won't buy it at the exact same price as a paper copy because I'm not buying paper, ink and distribution costs. The e-book technology has firmly and irrevocably moved me from a customer of DTBs to E-books, there is no going back for me.


----------



## BoomerSoonerOKU

Dankinia said:


> I rarely ever bought hard-backed books due to the cost. I buy way too many books to pay $15 plus a title. If they lower the ebook price when the paperback is released, I have no problem with waiting.


This. There are a few authors I collect that I'll pay a premium for a first edition HC, but the vast majority of my money was spent on paperbacks. There is sooooo much out there to read that I personally never have found it a problem to find other things to read during the wait for the MMP. Now... If they want to start pricing ebooks at higher than the mass market edition, then there's going to be a problem. If that's the case I'll go out of my way to make sure that publisher doesn't get a single dime from me, as I'll just buy a used DTB if it's a book I just have to read.

Even if I never bought a new book from Amazon, I'd still be satisfied with my Kindle reading the classics from Gutenberg, etc.


----------



## TheSeagull

@mcl, why return your Kindle when you are clearly angry at Macmillan rather than Amazon?


----------



## Magenta

Leslie said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it is a little strange that Amazon is making major corporate communications, including the fact that they will likely capitulate to Macmillan's agency model pricing demand, on a customer discussion board?
> 
> 
> L


They have done this before.... I expect a related press release is being circulated.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

For me, it's brand-name versus generic.  Brand Name is the hardcover DTB with all it's attendant costs.  The e-book is the generic that can be sold for a substantially lower cost.

I really don't care what the big boys do.  I'll still adhere to my buying habits.  

And that's the way Gertie "C's" it.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Susan B said:


> http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx2MEGQWTNGIMHV&displayType=tagsDeta
> 
> Official news from
> Amazon.


This certainly caused a response. The linked item has been posted for only two hours, and has received about a post every thirty seconds during that time.


----------



## Rasputina

BoomerSoonerOKU said:


> Even if I never bought a new book from Amazon, I'd still be satisfied with my Kindle reading the classics from Gutenberg, etc.


If that works for you, cool. But there is no way I'd pay over 200 dollars to buy a device just to read public domain books.


----------



## Raffeer

mcl said:


> if this keeps up, I'm thinking about expressing my strong disagreement by returning my Kindle.


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and wouldn't that be your loss?


----------



## Atunah

The ONLY way I would ever consider paying 14.99 for a ebook would be to offer them completely DRM free and properly formatted. As a consumer it irks me to be treated as a constant potential "pirate", not having really any say what do do with the book I legally purchased. We are willing to deal with all of that, drm, pirate cloud, bad formatting in some cases, having to look at the books as basically 'renting", and none of that seems to be enough. 

Ebook customers have so many restrictions on these books and now we are expected to pay even more for those restrictions?

What is going to happen if it does go that way is that many more will find the books elsewhere, not legal. Pushing those that were on the edge on that issue into the darkside of it. So instead of making 9.99 for a book like they could have, they will make Zero. 

No way are they going to lower the prize in any acceptable time frame and what really irks me anyway is when I see older books for more than the mass market paperback. '

If they going to do a model like that, it must be 14.99 for new only and after whatever time is proper it goes down to higher quality paper back and then finally the prize must be lower than a mass market pb once it reaches a certain age.


----------



## mcl

Raffeer said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and wouldn't that be your loss?


Let's see....me having a $250 paperweight because I refuse to pay more than cover price for books, or me having that $250 back in my pocket and going back to buying paperbacks. Yeah, no. Not seeing how that could possibly be my loss.


----------



## Rasputina

Atunah said:


> The ONLY way I would ever consider paying 14.99 for a ebook would be to offer them completely DRM free and properly formatted. As a consumer it irks me to be treated as a constant potential "pirate", not having really any say what do do with the book I legally purchased. We are willing to deal with all of that, drm, pirate cloud, bad formatting in some cases, having to look at the books as basically 'renting", and none of that seems to be enough.


You know what drives me nuts? The ebooks with the constant spelling and punctuation errors. I have no idea what happens between the print edition and the ebook version but I have noticed this much more in ebooks. And I do have some books both in print and in ebook. And I'm not even talking about public domain books.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

mcl said:


> This is the beginning of a slippery slope. At the bottom of that slope are a bunch of discarded Kindles.


There are TONS of good books out there (in the Kindle store and elsewhere) to read other than those by the major publishers like Macmillan that want to jack up the price. Consumers who are willing to pay the premium price will do so; for those who don't want to, there are lots of other alternatives. If nothing else, this is a great opportunity for indie authors and publishers who can offer discount pricing to consumers, and where Amazon actually stands to make a profit from sales, rather than a loss like they are for the books from major publishers.



> ...if this keeps up, I'm thinking about expressing my strong disagreement by returning my Kindle.


Go for it!


----------



## Varin

Amazon made an announcement on the Kindle forums;

http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx2MEGQWTNGIMHV&displayType=tagsDetail

This does NOT look happy.


----------



## teiresias

Looks like I'm going to have to make up a PDF or something that I can keep on my Kindle that keeps a list of Macmillan and all of their subsidiary publishers so I can make sure not to buy any of their product - regardless of the price.

I'm so outraged at Jobs' participation in what amounts to extortion, the iMac I'm typing this post on is likely the last Apple product I'll ever own as well.


----------



## jmmhooper

I for one will NOW not pay more then $9.99 for an ebook.  Come on, costs them nothing to print or make more copies of.  It is pure profit at $9.99 and they want more?


----------



## Jeff

Leslie said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it is a little strange that Amazon is making major corporate communications, including the fact that they will likely capitulate to Macmillan's agency model pricing demand, on a customer discussion board?


Makes you wonder if Jobs knew that this was going to happen doesn't it?


----------



## mcl

kreelanwarrior said:


> There are TONS of good books out there (in the Kindle store and elsewhere) to read other than those by the major publishers like Macmillan that want to jack up the price. Consumers who are willing to pay the premium price will do so; for those who don't want to, there are lots of other alternatives. If nothing else, this is a great opportunity for indie authors and publishers who can offer discount pricing to consumers, and where Amazon actually stands to make a profit from sales, rather than a loss like they are for the books from major publishers.
> 
> Go for it!


For me, this is not about reading for reading's sake. I don't want to read /a/ book; I want to read books from my favorite authors. The problem with self-publishing is that anyone can publish a book, and they often do.

I have limited personal time. During that time, I want to spend it reading something I know I'll enjoy, not something from an author of whom I've never heard. Unlike MP3s, where I can listen to samples from a wide variety of the artist's back catalogue prior to buying, ebooks force me to rely on the reviews. Reviews are about as common as certain orifices, and almost as relevant to me as those individual orifices. i used to discover new authors by borrowing books from friends. Guess what I can't do with ebooks?

Now, if said indie authors were willing to provide sample chapters for free, that'd be another matter. But this practice seems still to be somewhat rare.


----------



## drenee

I thought indie authors were providing samples.  I know I've read some.  
Is this something new that there are no samples?  Just curious.
deb


----------



## Jeff

mcl said:


> Now, if said indie authors were willing to provide sample chapters for free, that'd be another matter. But this practice seems still to be somewhat rare.


Amazon provides samples of Kindle books and you can read up to half of a book on Smashwords.


----------



## gadgetgirl003

mcl said:


> Now, if said indie authors were willing to provide sample chapters for free, that'd be another matter. But this practice seems still to be somewhat rare.


You're kidding right? You get free samples for almost all books sold on Amazon and Smashwords too. Am I missing something? Anyway, it sounds like you want to return your kindle and I'm guessing you are still within the 30 window. Return it. Later if you regret returning it you can buy it again. If you decide you are happy with returning it then be happy that Amazon makes it so easy and hassle free to return it. It sounds like a win win to me.


----------



## Rasputina

mcl said:


> For me, this is not about reading for reading's sake. I don't want to read /a/ book; I want to read books from my favorite authors. The problem with self-publishing is that anyone can publish a book, and they often do.


Well I'm with ya on that.


----------



## ak rain

last I looked you could not get sample if you did not have WN maybe this changed. I found a way and get samples to my iphone so have not looked lately
sylvia


----------



## VondaZ

Macmillan is not talking about never reducing the price of an e-book. They'd be stupid not to reduce the prices with the release of the paperback. The CEO himself says the pricing will be dynamic over time: "Our plan is to price the digital edition of most adult trade books in a price range from $14.99 to $5.99. At first release, concurrent with a hardcover, most titles will be priced between $14.99 and $12.99. E books will almost always appear day on date with the physical edition. Pricing will be dynamic over time." - http://www.teleread.org/2010/01/30/macmillan-ceo-tells-his-side-of-amazon-spat/#more-37342

Now is the time you can actually do something. The people will decide if $14.99 is too much. If people don't buy it, that price will change. If people are willing to pay that much, then by all mean, charge that much. Just because you'd rather pay less doesn't mean they should charge less unless you really won't pay the higher price. Now we are going to put that to the test and we get to see what happens. Amazon said, "Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book" - hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge - the ball is in your court.

I personally think it is too bad Amazon is caving here, but I still believe that the market will ultimately decide what an e-book should cost. New releases aren't a need like food or gas or heat. Publishers can't just charge what they want if people won't buy.


----------



## gadgetgirl003

ak rain said:


> last I looked you could not get sample if you did not have WN maybe this changed. I found a way and get samples to my iphone so have not looked lately
> sylvia


You can download samples to your computer now.


----------



## dnagirl

I, for one, won't pay more than $9.99 for an ebook.  And MacMillan shouldn't fool themselves and think that I'll cave and buy the paper version either, because that won't happen.  I'll either wait for the price to drop, or I'll find something else to read.

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but I think the publishing houses are just delaying the inevitable.


----------



## ak rain

thats cool, though I would rather read on my iphone then computer and that only the length of a sample. my main reading will stay on the kindle. I do keep my cook books on my computer App. can you tell I am a librarian and spend a lot of time cataloging books.  
sylvia


----------



## mcl

gadgetgirl003 said:


> You're kidding right? You get free samples for almost all books sold on Amazon and Smashwords too. Am I missing something? Anyway, it sounds like you want to return your kindle and I'm guessing you are still within the 30 window. Return it. Later if you regret returning it you can buy it again. If you decide you are happy with returning it then be happy that Amazon makes it so easy and hassle free to return it. It sounds like a win win to me.


"free sample" != "sample chapter".


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

[quote author=mcl]
Now, if said indie authors were willing to provide sample chapters for free, that'd be another matter. But this practice seems still to be somewhat rare.
[/quote]

A lot of indie authors offer free sample chapters through their web sites, in addition to the samples for the Kindle, Mobi, Smashwords, etc. Many of them also offer at least one of their books for free.

And yes, the biggest problem with the indie movement is that anyone can publish a book. However, that's where reader feedback, particularly on Amazon, comes in: if an author has done the necessary legwork to get his/her book(s) into circulation enough that people comment on it or someone writes an independent review, you can get a good idea of whether it's worth reading (note: I'm ignoring the authors who "pad" their book's pages with what are essentially bogus reviews)...


----------



## Leslie

mcl said:


> For me, this is not about reading for reading's sake. I don't want to read /a/ book; I want to read books from my favorite authors. The problem with self-publishing is that anyone can publish a book, and they often do.


Author A used to be a favorite author, then he started writing crap. Same with authors B, C, and D. One of the great things about my Kindle is I've discovered a whole bunch of new favorite authors, who happen to be publishing with small publishers that I might never have discovered otherwise. A whole new world has been opened to me and it's great. Just poke around this board. I am not shy about posting my favorites, recommendations, top ten lists, etc.

If you want to be locked into the New York Times Bestsellers and major publishing houses as your source of favorite authors, then maybe you will be disappointed. If you feel like experimenting a bit, the world is your oyster.



> I have limited personal time. During that time, I want to spend it reading something I know I'll enjoy, not something from an author of whom I've never heard. Unlike MP3s, where I can listen to samples from a wide variety of the artist's back catalogue prior to buying, ebooks force me to rely on the reviews. Reviews are about as common as certain orifices, and almost as relevant to me as those individual orifices. i used to discover new authors by borrowing books from friends. Guess what I can't do with ebooks?


Well, right now I am working two jobs, trying to get one child graduated from college, another from high school. I'd say I have limited time too. But part of the fun of reading is searching out new and interesting books and then discovering how wonderful they are...and then getting to recommend them to others. See above. Discovering and reading since I got my Kindle in 2008 has been a joy.

I keep thinking back to that last piece of crap I read from Patricia Cornwell (who used to be a favorite author) and I feel like I need to get some mind bleach again. I no longer rely on an author's name to guarantee a good read.



> Now, if said indie authors were willing to provide sample chapters for free, that'd be another matter. But this practice seems still to be somewhat rare.


As others have said, there's Smashwords, Kindle samples and remember, Google is your friend. There are zillions of blog sites where authors post excerpts, have interviews, give away free books, and on and on. It's a whole big world of reading out there.

L


----------



## gadgetgirl003

ak rain said:


> thats cool, though I would rather read on my iphone then computer and that only the length of a sample. my main reading will stay on the kindle. I do keep my cook books on my computer App. can you tell I am a librarian and spend a lot of time cataloging books.
> sylvia


I admire your organizational skills. I am very lacking in that department. I just now downloaded a sample to my ipod touch. I really like that we are given that option before having to commit to buying the book.



mcl said:


> "free sample" != "sample chapter".


mci,
If a sample of a book is not enough for you to know if you will probably like the book, buy it and read several chapters. If you decide that you don't like the book and you are still within the 7day purchase window, return the book. Amazon will credit you. Please don't misunderstand me though, I still firmly believe that if you want to return your kindle that you SHOULD return it. It is TOTALLY your choice. THat's one of the great things about Amazon.


----------



## drenee

Kindleboards is a wonderful place to discover indie authors.  
I read the reviews of the other members I trust or who have similar tastes to mine and base my purchases from there.
deb


----------



## gadgetgirl003

drenee said:


> Kindleboards is a wonderful place to discover indie authors.
> I read the reviews of the other members I trust or who have similar tastes to mine and base my purchases from there.
> deb


I agree with you Deb, since finding the Kindleboards, I have found so many new authors whose writing I really enjoy.


----------



## Magenta

The media has picked up on the Amazon statement regarding Macmillan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/technology/companies/01amazonweb.html?ref=technology

The article has been updated and has a new title: At Amazon, Giving In to Demands

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/technology/companies/01amazonweb.html?ref=business


----------



## mcl

kreelanwarrior said:


> A lot of indie authors offer free sample chapters through their web sites, in addition to the samples for the Kindle, Mobi, Smashwords, etc. Many of them also offer at least one of their books for free.
> 
> And yes, the biggest problem with the indie movement is that anyone can publish a book. However, that's where reader feedback, particularly on Amazon, comes in: if an author has done the necessary legwork to get his/her book(s) into circulation enough that people comment on it or someone writes an independent review, you can get a good idea of whether it's worth reading (note: I'm ignoring the authors who "pad" their book's pages with what are essentially bogus reviews)...


As I apparently expressed poorly above: I find that reviews rarely reflect how I'll feel about a book. I have the same problem with movie, music, and restaurant reviews. I have similar problems with iTunes, Amazon, and Netflix suggestions. I judge content by the content, not by what other people think of the content. That includes plot, characterization, worldbuilding, tone, turn of phrase, and so forth.

And as I said above, if sample chapters were more frequently provided, this wouldn't be an issue. Yes, the kindle has samples. They are NOT sample chapters. They're the first few pages of a book. I've read fantastic books with extremely poor openings. I've read crap books with spectacular openings. Don't feed me a few pages (which often contain a TOC, or prologue, or reviews of other books, or similar cruft about which I care not a whit); give me a full chapter and let me decide.

Yes, some authors have personal websites with more complete samples.

However, my time spent with my Kindle is supposed to be for enjoyment, not research. I get paid to do research. I do not pay others for the privilege. I know who I like, and I trust the recommendations of a close circle of friends. I do not get my jollies spending hours trying to determine if an unknown author is worth my time.

In a physical store, I can touch the book, read the covers and front material, check several spots in the book, and generally get a feel for what I'm about to get into on a first-person basis. The ability to do that via the Kindle is extremely limited.

I bought this thing because, having been out for more than two years and 3 versions of hardware, I assumed I was no longer on the bleeding edge of early-adopterhood. I'm beginning to suspect that may not be the case. That, or some here are far too wed to the hardware to be objective in this matter.


----------



## mcl

And the first sentence sums it up nicely: "In a fight over the price of electronic books, Amazon.com has blinked."

Thus setting the stage for the other five major publishing houses to do likewise, heralding the beginning of the $15 ebook across the board.

I have 18 days to decide whether or not to return the Kindle.  Right now, I'm leaning very strongly towards doing so, as I've no desire to own a Kindle in such a situation.  I'm willing to pay $9.99 because that's pretty much what I pay when I grab a paperback off the shelf.  I'll refuse to pay $15 for exactly the same reason.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Leslie said:


> Author A used to be a favorite author, then he started writing crap. Same with authors B, C, and D. One of the great things about my Kindle is I've discovered a whole bunch of new favorite authors, who happen to be publishing with small publishers that I might never have discovered otherwise. A whole new world has been opened to me and it's great. Just poke around this board. I am not shy about posting my favorites, recommendations, top ten lists, etc.


I have discovered many new favorites here as well, and most of them were indie authors. It takes a little research and sometimes some arm-twisting from other KB'ers to get me to read something new, but I've never been sorry that I took a recommendation.



> I keep thinking back to that last piece of crap I read from Patricia Cornwell (who used to be a favorite author) and I feel like I need to get some mind bleach again. I no longer rely on an author's name to guarantee a good read.


So true, Leslie. The Big Six can publish crap as well. I have read books that I wouldn't even consider giving away because they were so bad. They went right in the trash.

Not to mention the formatting errors I have found in many printed books. At least with an e-book, you can let the author know and return the book for a refund. Try doing that with a printed book.



> As others have said, there's Smashwords, Kindle samples and remember, Google is your friend. There are zillions of blog sites where authors post excerpts, have interviews, give away free books, and on and on. It's a whole big world of reading out there.
> 
> L


I have gotten up to three chapters as samples. Three chapters is certainly enough to know if I like a book or not. Three chapters is what agents and publishers want an author to submit.


----------



## drenee

I think we need to remember that the issue here is Amazon/MacMillan, and the issue has only been public for about 48 hours.  48 weekend hours.  
This situation, in my very simplistic view, could be considered growing pains.  
Ereaders are not going away anymore than mP3 players died out.  
deb


----------



## Gertie Kindle

drenee said:


> I think we need to remember that the issue here is Amazon/MacMillan, and the issue has only been public for about 48 hours. 48 weekend hours.
> This situation, in my very simplistic view, could be considered growing pains.
> Ereaders are not going away anymore than mP3 players died out.
> deb


Well said, Deb. In the end, consumers have the power.


----------



## BoomerSoonerOKU

mcl said:


> As I apparently expressed poorly above: I find that reviews rarely reflect how I'll feel about a book. I have the same problem with movie, music, and restaurant reviews. I have similar problems with iTunes, Amazon, and Netflix suggestions. I judge content by the content, not by what other people think of the content. That includes plot, characterization, worldbuilding, tone, turn of phrase, and so forth.
> 
> And as I said above, if sample chapters were more frequently provided, this wouldn't be an issue. Yes, the kindle has samples. They are NOT sample chapters. They're the first few pages of a book. I've read fantastic books with extremely poor openings. I've read crap books with spectacular openings. Don't feed me a few pages (which often contain a TOC, or prologue, or reviews of other books, or similar cruft about which I care not a whit); give me a full chapter and let me decide.
> 
> Yes, some authors have personal websites with more complete samples.
> 
> However, my time spent with my Kindle is supposed to be for enjoyment, not research. I get paid to do research. I do not pay others for the privilege. I know who I like, and I trust the recommendations of a close circle of friends. I do not get my jollies spending hours trying to determine if an unknown author is worth my time.
> 
> In a physical store, I can touch the book, read the covers and front material, check several spots in the book, and generally get a feel for what I'm about to get into on a first-person basis. The ability to do that via the Kindle is extremely limited.
> 
> I bought this thing because, having been out for more than two years and 3 versions of hardware, I assumed I was no longer on the bleeding edge of early-adopterhood. I'm beginning to suspect that may not be the case. That, or some here are far too wed to the hardware to be objective in this matter.


I'm curious as to how you find things you actually like. I'm somewhat of an audiophile myself, and a 30 second sample generally doesn't assure me if I'll like a song or not, so I have to take chances from time to time. Sometimes it's a great find, other times it's a stinker. Same goes for food. I don't know too many restaurants (other than ice cream shops) that offer a sample before I decide to buy a meal. Just like anyone, the advice of trusted friends and family can go a long way, but ultimately the only way to know if you like something is to try it yourself. If we spend our lives wondering if we'll like it or worrying over it, we'll never get around to experiencing anything. I don't look at going to a new restaurant as research, it's an experience. Same goes for other "entertainment" purchases.

If getting a feel for a book as you describe going into a brick & mortar is extremely important to you before purchase, I'm somewhat unsure why you bought any e-reader, as they all are pretty similar with samples afaik. Perhaps you'd be happier with a Sony so you could use it for library books?


----------



## mcl

BoomerSoonerOKU said:


> I'm curious as to how you find things you actually like. I'm somewhat of an audiophile myself, and a 30 second sample generally doesn't assure me if I'll like a song or not, so I have to take chances from time to time. Sometimes it's a great find, other times it's a stinker. Same goes for food. I don't know too many restaurants (other than ice cream shops) that offer a sample before I decide to buy a meal. Just like anyone, the advice of trusted friends and family can go a long way, but ultimately the only way to know if you like something is to try it yourself. If we spend our lives wondering if we'll like it or worrying over it, we'll never get around to experiencing anything. I don't look at going to a new restaurant as research, it's an experience. Same goes for other "entertainment" purchases.
> 
> If getting a feel for a book as you describe going into a brick & mortar, I'm somewhat unsure why you bought any e-reader, as they all are pretty similar with samples afaik. Perhaps you'd be happier with a Sony so you could use it for library books?


I thought I'd been as plain as possible: I rely on the recommendations of a close circle of friends. Not those of strangers. Nor do I spend hours looking into the background of an unknown author, in the same way I don't spend hours wandering into unknown restaurants cold, or buying music blindly. Or researching same, since the research is ultimately pointless, and leaves me knowing little more than I knew previously. It's still a crapshoot.

I don't like shooting craps.

I bought an e-reader so I could purchase ebooks from authors I know and enjoy, or those recommended to me by the aforementioned circle, at prices equal to or lesser than those in brick and mortar bookstores. Not so I could pay more; not so I could be stuck with unknown indies and public-domain material.


----------



## drenee

I have a question.  One of the authors that I have been reading quite a bit lately is Janet Evanovich.  Her Stephanie Plum series is through St. Martin's Press, a MacMillan company, who has requested Amazon to set their prices on e-books higher or hold back releases for 7 months.  Why can I walk into B&N and pick up the HB of Fearless Fourteen for 4.99, but the K-book is still 7.99?  Isn't that contradictory?


----------



## Sofie

mcl,

I have read a number of your posts in various threads and refrain is the same... I thinking of returning my Kindle. If you are that unhappy with it and don't agree with the way pricing seems to be headed...return your Kindle. It is your decision and only YOU can make that decision. If, down the road things change or you change your outlook, then buy another Kindle or buy a different e-reader. Once again, it is your choice.


----------



## Geoffrey

mcl said:


> I thought I'd been as plain as possible: I rely on the recommendations of a close circle of friends. Not those of strangers. Nor do I spend hours looking into the background of an unknown author, in the same way I don't spend hours wandering into unknown restaurants cold, or buying music blindly. Or researching same, since the research is ultimately pointless, and leaves me knowing little more than I knew previously. It's still a crapshoot.
> 
> I don't like shooting craps.
> 
> I bought an e-reader so I could purchase ebooks from authors I know and enjoy, or those recommended to me by the aforementioned circle, at prices equal to or lesser than those in brick and mortar bookstores. Not so I could pay more; not so I could be stuck with unknown indies and public-domain material.


.... and it's all good.

I try food I've never had before all the time. I'm the same way with music, movies and authors .... I like diving into the unknown because I'm often surprised and pleased with what I find. It appears to me that you are more firmly wed to what's known than am I - and that's not bad or better or worse - it's just different. There are consequences to both perspectives. I'm more likely to pay for something I want to try and end up not enjoying it. You may be forced to pay more for what you already know you like ....


----------



## Gertie Kindle

drenee said:


> I have a question. One of the authors that I have been reading quite a bit lately is Janet Evanovich. Her Stephanie Plum series is through St. Martin's Press, a MacMillan company, who has requested Amazon to set their prices on e-books higher or hold back releases for 7 months. Why can I walk into B&N and pick up the HB of Fearless Fourteen for 4.99, but the K-book is still 7.99? Isn't that contradictory?


Seems like it. I haven't read #15 yet because the price is too high. Hopefully, the price will come down when the PB comes out in July. It doesn't bother me to wait. I just read 1-14 again. 

Wonder if MacMillan is going to start dictating prices to B&N, too?


----------



## mcl

Sofie said:


> mcl,
> 
> I have read a number of your posts in various threads and refrain is the same... I thinking of returning my Kindle. If you are that unhappy with it and don't agree with the way pricing seems to be headed...return your Kindle. It is your decision and only YOU can make that decision. If, down the road things change or you change your outlook, then buy another Kindle or buy a different e-reader. Once again, it is your choice.


yes, it is. Since my choice has been made so plain by myself, as you point out, what's the point of restating it to me? Clearly, I already comprehend it.

Unless this is your overly-polite way of telling me to go away.


----------



## Shastastan

Forster said:


> I'll never give my Kindle up, way, way too many other e-books out there at good prices to get upset because of the heavy handedness of a few big publishing houses. Giving up my Kindle would be akin to cutting off my nose to spite my face.


Bump. Why would I or others want to give up the comfort, larger fonts, and no eye-strain for the sake of a protest?


----------



## mcl

Geoffrey said:


> .... and it's all good.
> 
> I try food I've never had before all the time. I'm the same way with music, movies and authors .... I like diving into the unknown because I'm often surprised and pleased with what I find. It appears to me that you are more firmly wed to what's known than am I - and that's not bad or better or worse - it's just different. There are consequences to both perspectives. I'm more likely to pay for something I want to try and end up not enjoying it. You may be forced to pay more for what you already know you like ....


Um, no.

I must not be expressing myself very well today, since I thought I'd already explained the fact that I will NOT be forced to do so. I have choices. Depending on how things play out, I may decide to exercise one or another of those choices. Only one of those choices is, "pay the inflated prices that are on the way."

Another choice is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to publishers who do not inflate prices," but I've already stated my opinion on that: I believe the other five will follow suit in short order.

Yet another is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to unknown indies and public-domain works." I've been pretty clear about not liking that option.

Still another is: "return the kindle."

And there's one more: "continue to express my displeasure in public, as well as directly to Amazon, the publishers in question, and certain of my favorite authors published by Macmillan, and hope that someone comes to their senses soon."

Right now, I'm opting for the last.


----------



## Chad Winters

marianner said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking, Betsy. I really don't get the vitriol. Book too expensive? Don't buy it. As I think Magenta said, if nobody buys at $14.99, they'll lower the price. The sense of entitlement, though, that you _deserve_ the latest bestseller _immediately_, and at a discount price, is pretty sickening to me. If it's too expensive, do what you did before the Kindle and wait for the paperback.


I disagree a little, I think the pubs would love to kill ebooks in their shortsightedness. They will price ebooks so high we will not buy them and they can say "see...no one buys ebooks, ebooks are dead"


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Shastastan said:


> Bump. Why would I or others want to give up the comfort, larger fonts, and no eye-strain for the sake of a protest?


Maybe a few people might do that, but not me, that's for sure. I love my Kindle and they'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands. At one time we had a discussion on how to take your Kindle with you. I think we decided a six foot antenna with a solar charger would do it.


----------



## luvmy4brats

mcl said:


> yes, it is. Since my choice has been made so plain by myself, as you point out, what's the point of restating it to me? Clearly, I already comprehend it.
> 
> Unless this is your overly-polite way of telling me to go away.


Please remember that it's often difficult to convey tone in posts.

I don't think anybody is telling you to go away.

Heather
Moderator


----------



## BoomerSoonerOKU

mcl said:


> Um, no.
> 
> I must not be expressing myself very well today, since I thought I'd already explained the fact that I will NOT be forced to do so. I have choices. Depending on how things play out, I may decide to exercise one or another of those choices. Only one of those choices is, "pay the inflated prices that are on the way."
> 
> Another choice is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to publishers who do not inflate prices," but I've already stated my opinion on that: I believe the other five will follow suit in short order.
> 
> Yet another is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to unknown indies and public-domain works." I've been pretty clear about not liking that option.
> 
> Still another is: "return the kindle."
> 
> And there's one more: "continue to express my displeasure in public, as well as directly to Amazon, the publishers in question, and certain of my favorite authors published by Macmillan, and hope that someone comes to their senses soon."
> 
> Right now, I'm opting for the last.


And that's an excellent choice. As I've said earlier in the thread. If publishers want to charge as much as or more for an ebook versus the DTB version, I'll make sure they don't get one dime from me. If that means waiting until I can find it used so be it. Just because you own an ereader (no matter which one) it doesn't mean you have to read everything on that device. If what you actually read on it doesn't justify the price, then it's probably best to return it.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I disagree a little, I think the pubs would love to kill ebooks in their shortsightedness. They will price ebooks so high we will not buy them and they can say "see...no one buys ebooks, ebooks are dead"


Interesting viewpoint. They can say that, but e-book sales will continue. Just not the e-books from the Big Six who overprice their books.

I would like to see Amazon tag books from indies so we know where to look first.


----------



## Chad Winters

Bought a Tor book today at the 1/2 price bookstore for 7.00. Would have gladly paid 9.99 for this omnibus hardback (James Gunn by Ben Bova) and Tor and Ben would have gotten the money instead of a reseller. They act like we don't have other options besides  taking whatever they will give us.


----------



## gadgetgirl003

mcl said:


> Another choice is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to publishers who do not inflate prices," but I've already stated my opinion on that: I believe the other five will follow suit in short order.
> 
> Yet another is: "keep the kindle, and limit myself to unknown indies and public-domain works." I've been pretty clear about not liking that option.
> 
> Still another is: "return the kindle."
> 
> And there's one more: "continue to express my displeasure in public, as well as directly to Amazon, the publishers in question, and certain of my favorite authors published by Macmillan, and hope that someone comes to their senses soon."
> 
> Right now, I'm opting for the last.


I REALLY DON'T mean this sarcastically, please believe me...I was wondering why you kept posting the same thing over and over...NOW I UNDERSTAND!!! Continuing to express your displeasure in public such as repeatedly on this board is your way of trying to get to Amazon or Macmillan. Thank you for stating more clearly what your objective was in repeating this over and over. I was trying to be a problem solver for you as were others on this board, but now I realize that that is not what you want. You just want to vent. We ALL need to vent some time. Sorry I misunderstood you before.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> Bought a Tor book today at the 1/2 price bookstore for 7.00. Would have gladly paid 9.99 for this omnibus hardback (James Gunn by Ben Bova) and Tor and Ben would have gotten the money instead of a reseller. They act like we don't have other options besides taking whatever they will give us.


Another option for me are the 1500 DTB's I still have on my shelves, only a few of which have been Kindleized. I'm only going to keep those that I want to read again.

Then there are library and garage sales, Goodwill and Salvation Army, and even WalMart.

My Kindle is still my first option for reading, and I have yet to work my way through all the Indie authors on this Board.


----------



## NogDog

I'm perfectly fine with publishers choosing what they feel to be the wholesale price at which they want to sell their e-books, when they want to release them, if/when they later want to reduce e-book wholesale prices when the paperback is released, etc. I'm also perfectly fine if Amazon changes their previous practice and no longer decides to maintain a unilaterally selected retail price point on their part. This is, after all, a free economy (relatively) and based on supply and demand.

The corollary is that the publishers and retailers must then be satisfied with my resulting purchasing choices. Outside of the next Terry Pratchett new release, which I'll probably buy in hardback, I expect to have no trouble keeping my reading appetites satisfied with non-new-release titles at below $10 prices, indie authors at a fraction of that, introductory free/cheap offerings, public domain classics, etc.

If enough others are like me, the publishers will likely realize that they need to reassess their business models and compensate. If, on the other hand, there is enough demand for new-release e-books at around $15, then they will have been proven correct, and I'll just continue what I had always done before anyway: wait until the paperback is released (and the e-book price is correspondingly reduced).


----------



## andy_in_virginia

All this does is encourage users to go out and find "alternative" downloads of the books they want on peer-to-peer or torrent sites.  Amazon AND the publishers will pay the price with a drop in sales.


----------



## VondaZ

drenee said:


> I have a question. One of the authors that I have been reading quite a bit lately is Janet Evanovich. Her Stephanie Plum series is through St. Martin's Press, a MacMillan company, who has requested Amazon to set their prices on e-books higher or hold back releases for 7 months. Why can I walk into B&N and pick up the HB of Fearless Fourteen for 4.99, but the K-book is still 7.99? Isn't that contradictory?


Because this book is now available in paperback and the next book is already out in hardcover. You have found a bargain book that is unsold and taking up space somewhere and someone is trying to sell it cheap to make room for other things. That is one consumer advantage of physical inventory. It is expensive to take up space and you can sometimes get a great deal when the seller wants to get rid of it to free that space for something new. E-books do not take up physical space and thus will never be reduced just for the sake of getting rid of it.


----------



## Geoffrey

If you don't want to pay the price listed for an item, then by all means do not pay it.

There are books - pbooks and ebooks - for which I am willing to pay more than $10.  There are others I am not.  If a publisher sets an MSRP higher than I'm willing to pay, I will wait until the price is one I will pay and I will read other things in the meantime.


----------



## lynninva

VondaZ said:


> Macmillan is not talking about never reducing the price of an e-book. They'd be stupid not to reduce the prices with the release of the paperback. The CEO himself says the pricing will be dynamic over time: "Our plan is to price the digital edition of most adult trade books in a price range from $14.99 to $5.99. At first release, concurrent with a hardcover, most titles will be priced between $14.99 and $12.99. E books will almost always appear day on date with the physical edition. Pricing will be dynamic over time." - http://www.teleread.org/2010/01/30/macmillan-ceo-tells-his-side-of-amazon-spat/#more-37342
> 
> Now is the time you can actually do something. The people will decide if $14.99 is too much. If people don't buy it, that price will change. If people are willing to pay that much, then by all mean, charge that much. Just because you'd rather pay less doesn't mean they should charge less unless you really won't pay the higher price. Now we are going to put that to the test and we get to see what happens. Amazon said, "Amazon customers will at that point decide for themselves whether they believe it's reasonable to pay $14.99 for a bestselling e-book" - hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge - the ball is in your court.
> 
> I personally think it is too bad Amazon is caving here, but I still believe that the market will ultimately decide what an e-book should cost. New releases aren't a need like food or gas or heat. Publishers can't just charge what they want if people won't buy.


I agree with this. I don't like the fact that Amazon will be giving up the option of setting their own prices with the agency model. But I am glad that they chose to have the e-books available at initial release. This does allow their customers to 'vote' with their purchases. Those who are willing to pay the higher price are able to make that choice; those who want to wait for the price to be reduced can also do so.

I have read books from several of the indie authors on this site & have enjoyed them tremendously. I find plenty to read with the free and bargain books. But if I want to buy a book at first release, I want to buy it in Kindle format; I will decide at that time if the price is appropriate for me.


----------



## Geoffrey

mcl said:


> Um, no.
> 
> I must not be expressing myself very well today, since I thought I'd already explained the fact that I will NOT be forced to do so. I have choices.


Of course you have choices. As with gadgetgirl003, I get that you need to vent. That's a choice I can respect as I do that too sometimes. So, have at it.

I thought you wanted to discuss not vent. My mistake and I apologize. I'm usually much better at reading people's intent.


----------



## Rasputina

marianner said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking, Betsy. I really don't get the vitriol. Book too expensive? Don't buy it. As I think Magenta said, if nobody buys at $14.99, they'll lower the price. The sense of entitlement, though, that you _deserve_ the latest bestseller _immediately_, and at a discount price, is pretty sickening to me. If it's too expensive, do what you did before the Kindle and wait for the paperback.


every.single.word


----------



## 1131

I agree with NogDog. Publishers and retailers set the price.  I decide what I'm willing to pay. If I'm not willing to pay the asking price for a book, I have other alternatives (the library, friends who will loan their book to me - my personal choice is to Not pirate books). If the next PERN book comes out at $15 for a Kindle copy, I will buy the HC, which I would have done anyway, for my collection.  I will, however skip the Kindle book which would have been my reading copy.  

The publishers and retailers have made their decisions, now each consumer will need to decide for themselves what they want to do.  Publishers and retailers will react to consumers decisions.  As NogDog said, if enough people refuse to purchase the higher priced books, the publishers and retailers will reassess their pricing decisions.  If not, the publishers were right about pricing and I will discover and enjoy new authors, wait for paperback prices and use the library just as I have done in the past.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

If we are going to be effective as consumers, we need to let the publishers know why we are not buying a particular book.  Just withdrawing our $$$ may not be sufficient.  

I think it's time I wrote to Janet Evanovich and her publisher and tell them why I have not purchased #15 yet, and that I will not be buying it until it comes down to at least paperback price.  The Stephanie Plum series and the Miss Julia series are two that I will buy at paperback price, but no matter how much I love them, I will not pay $14 or more.


----------



## bordercollielady

I'm in..  I was willing to pay the high price for the Kindle in part because of the reasonable cost for the E-books.  Nothing higher than $9.99 for me!


----------



## Jasonmh

That didn't take long, 2 days.


----------



## Leslie

mcl said:


> In a physical store, I can touch the book, read the covers and front material, check several spots in the book, and generally get a feel for what I'm about to get into on a first-person basis. The ability to do that via the Kindle is extremely limited.


Clearly, you want to use your limited free time to go to the book store and as you said, "touch the book, read the covers and front material, check several spots in the book, and generally get a feel for what I'm about to get into on a first-person basis." Have at it. You know what? We have lots of members who do the same thing, Kindle in hand and then when they find a book they like, they buy it on their Kindle (yes, right there in the bookstore). Yes, maybe they are prostituting the B&M bookstore but it's a dog eat dog world.

If you don't like your Kindle, return it. If you like it, figure out a way to make it work for you.

L


----------



## Magenta

Ahhhh, but did Amazon blink - or - did they perhaps decide to let the consumers speak through their wallets?  Kind of like a way to prove their point?  Time will tell.

All I know is I've got 70 unread books on my Kindle, so I guess I can wait awhile for all this pricing nonsense to work itself out.


----------



## mcl

Geoffrey said:


> Of course you have choices. As with gadgetgirl003, I get that you need to vent. That's a choice I can respect as I do that too sometimes. So, have at it.
> 
> I thought you wanted to discuss not vent. My mistake and I apologize. I'm usually much better at reading people's intent.


if you recognize my choices, why did you state in the post I was responding to: "you may be forced to pay the higher prices"?

I am not venting; I am discussing. Or, in this case, correcting. You stated I may be forced to pay higher prices. I was clarifying for you exactly why I would NOT be forced to do so.

Several of you seem to think that, once one raises the "nuclear option" of returning one's kindle, the discussion is over. If that's how you wish to proceed, so be it. But don't think to marginalize anything I have to say just because one of my options happens to be returning the Kindle, whereas you do not have that option. Call it "venting" all you want, but my opinions are just as valid as yours.


----------



## mcl

How many of you have actually written directly to Macmillan USA, Amazon, and/or any relevant authors to express your opinions on the matter, rather than just batting the issue back and forth on this and other fora?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

mcl said:


> How many of you have actually written directly to Macmillan USA, Amazon, and/or any relevant authors to express your opinions on the matter, rather than just batting the issue back and forth on this and other fora?


In one of the other threads, I suggested doing just that. My first e-mail is going to Janet Evanovich and her publisher. They need to know why I have not puchased #15 and at what price point I will purchase it.


----------



## cc1013

Even after conceding, the Macmillan books still aren't available on Amazon.  I wonder if that will take a few days.  Interesting.....


----------



## The Hooded Claw

cc1013 said:


> Even after conceding, the Macmillan books still aren't available on Amazon. I wonder if that will take a few days. Interesting.....


The article did say "ultimately", so that could in theory be a long time. Though since Amazon has spontaneously announced their ultimate surrender, there's little reason to dilly dally if they have a final agreement with MacMillan.


----------



## Eric C

mcl said:


> Do I believe the author had a choice when deciding whether or not to sign that paper? Yes, I do.


In regard to the major publishers, authors rely upon literary agents to determine who is best to publish with. They trust the agent to pick the best publishing house, or to agree to the most advantageous terms with a single publishing house that has made an offer. Once an author signs with a publishing house, that house may later act in a manner the author and/or agent did not anticipate, but the contractual agreement does not allow any immediate severing of the relationship.


----------



## crca56

i would pay whatever the bookstore charged for a hardback if it was one i wanted, so i'm still saving money....to buy more books with,lol...at last count (over 15 years ago) i had over 10,000 paperbacks, so the option of more books taking up less room is still the best for me


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Magenta said:


> Ahhhh, but did Amazon blink - or - did they perhaps decide to let the consumers speak through their wallets? Kind of like a way to prove their point? Time will tell.


I don't think there's going to be much speaking through wallets on this issue. People who follow this sort of thing on KB or even on the Amazon forum are only a small percentage of Kindle users, and Kindle users are only a modest percentage of book buyers (I know we buy a lot of books, but there are a lot of DTB readers who buy lots of books too). The vast majority of readers will buy their books without ever realizing this happened, except perhaps a few Kindle readers who will be disappointed that there aren't many $9.99 books around anymore. Unless Amazon unexpectedly stiffens up, I think this is going to be one where the publishers win for awhile. Looks like ebooks are going to go through the whole process that digital music went through. I'd hoped publishers might be enlightened enough to try to be ahead of the technology, but that's clearly not gonna happen for now.

But it will be okay, there are lots of books from Kindle and others that are well under $9.99, and those of us who want a book badly enough can pay $14 or whatever the figure ends up being (Presumably Amazon is still trying to negotiate those details--I suspect their "surrender" is a gesture in the negotiations).


----------



## Eric C

mcl said:


> Yes, the authors have power. Publishers only exist because they have content to distribute, promote, and profit from. Who provides that content? Authors. Without authors, publishers cannot exist.


Theoretically authors have power, but to exercise it collective action would be required. Collective action among artists? Atlas Shrugged was fiction.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Eric C said:


> In regard to the major publishers, authors rely upon literary agents to determine who is best to publish with. They trust the agent to pick the best publishing house, or to agree to the most advantageous terms with a single publishing house that has made an offer. Once an author signs with a publishing house, that house may later act in a manner the author and/or agent did not anticipate, but the contractual agreement does not allow any immediate severing of the relationship.


And there are consequences to severing. The author loses the rights to the book and the characters. They are the property of the publisher. The author cannot continue a series with the same characters under a different publisher.


----------



## rho

I'm thinking my Kindle wish list will grow with the number of books that say waiting for price to go down - and I think that Amazon is hoping that many others will express their displeasure with this by not buying the books at the higher price.  I think they are in a no win situation - they can pull the books to make a point like they tried and people were all over them or they can offer the books at the higher price and make some people happy that they can get the books right away or they can not buy them at all or wait till the price goes down to show how we feel.  And I think that they realize that Macmillan has Jobs and all his resources in their back pocket and that the battle could be long and hard.....and that maybe it is better to let their customers speak for them (by not buying the books at the high price) 

mcl I think you should return your Kindle - I sort of feel that the discussion with you is over (your words btw) because in every single post you have made lately you end by saying you most likely will be returning your Kindle - kinda sounds like you have made up your mind and you are just venting at this point ..... and I don't want to try to change your mind and have you not be happy with the choice in the future -- as someone said earlier if you return it now you get your money back and if you decide later that you do want a Kindle you have the option to buy one or to buy another e-reader.  I love my Kindle, others love their Sony or their Nook lots of people love reading books the main thing is the reading and the enjoyment you get from it - if every time you pick up your Kindle you will think that it was a bad choice it isn't for you at this moment -


----------



## ginaf20697

I can't even read that thread on Amazon anymore. The amount of sheer ignorance there is making my head hurt.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

mcl said:


> How many of you have actually written directly to Macmillan USA, Amazon, and/or any relevant authors to express your opinions on the matter, rather than just batting the issue back and forth on this and other fora?


Do you have suggested names and addresses or links for us to write to MacMillan, Amazon, etc.?


----------



## rho

mcl said:


> How many of you have actually written directly to Macmillan USA, Amazon, and/or any relevant authors to express your opinions on the matter, rather than just batting the issue back and forth on this and other fora?
> [/quote
> 
> I actually have written to several authors that are effected by this - and have heard back from them too.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

The Hooded Claw said:


> Do you have suggested names and addresses or links for us to write to MacMillan, Amazon, etc.?


Most authors have websites and you'll find contact information there. I just wrote to Janet Evanovich through her website at Evanovich.com. I've written to Random House through their website, and I'm going to check for MacMillan right now.

I also told Janet how much I enjoyed her Plum series. This isn't the authors fault and they need our support as well. They and us are caught between the giants.


----------



## lynninva

mcl said:


> How many of you have actually written directly to Macmillan USA, Amazon, and/or any relevant authors to express your opinions on the matter, rather than just batting the issue back and forth on this and other fora?


I sent a comment to Macmillan through their 'contact us' option earlier today, before reading Amazon's statement on the issue. Based on the options they gave to Amazon, I am in agreement with the choice that Amazon is making (at least acccording to the customer service post).


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Here's the link to contact MacMillan

http://us.macmillan.com/splash/contact.html

Amazon did what they had to do. Now it's up to us. If you disagree with them, write, e-mail, or call.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> And there are consequences to severing. The author loses the rights to the book and the characters. They are the property of the publisher. The author cannot continue a series with the same characters under a different publisher.


And I suspect that other publishers would think twice about signing authors who severed their contracts with their own publisher without darn good reason (beyond the "protest" business)...


----------



## Eric C

mcl said:


> This says it better than I could: http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/selling-paper.html
> 
> And it fully illustrates the choice authors have: they don't have to sign that contract at all. They could make more money selling directly, at much lower prices, than they would through that big, glamorous publishing house.


This is not true now for the vast majority of indie authors, though it might well be true before this decade is up. Joe Konrath has a major publisher and a popular blog. He is a special case.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

kreelanwarrior said:


> And I suspect that other publishers would think twice about signing authors who severed their contracts with their own publisher without darn good reason (beyond the "protest" business)...


I'm sure that's true unless the author is a major best seller like Stephen King.


----------



## mcl

The Hooded Claw said:


> Do you have suggested names and addresses or links for us to write to MacMillan, Amazon, etc.?


Macmillan USA retailer, wholesaler, and customer service: [email protected]
Amazon: [email protected]


----------



## Chad Winters

NYT just posted that Amazon caved in to MM and will be raising their prices. I don't think I will be buying any of their books, at least not retail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/technology/companies/01amazonweb.html


----------



## VictoriaP

The Hooded Claw said:


> I don't think there's going to be much speaking through wallets on this issue. People who follow this sort of thing on KB or even on the Amazon forum are only a small percentage of Kindle users, and Kindle users are only a modest percentage of book buyers (I know we buy a lot of books, but there are a lot of DTB readers who buy lots of books too). The vast majority of readers will buy their books without ever realizing this happened, except perhaps a few Kindle readers who will be disappointed that there aren't many $9.99 books around anymore. Unless Amazon unexpectedly stiffens up, I think this is going to be one where the publishers win for awhile. Looks like ebooks are going to go through the whole process that digital music went through. I'd hoped publishers might be enlightened enough to try to be ahead of the technology, but that's clearly not gonna happen for now.


I disagree.

While mainstream media isn't following this story much right now, it will almost certainly start showing up there tomorrow. This happened over a weekend for a number of reasons; one decent summary of why can be found here: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/30/its-all-about-timing/ More e-reader owners will discover this news over the coming days.

As far as "speaking through wallets", I think there will be plenty of it done. It just won't have enough of an impact on MacMillan, or the other publishers who will follow suit IMMEDIATELY come tomorrow. There are lots of people who are appalled enough at the $9.99 price; when it goes to $14.99, most people will go buy the hardcover....which is exactly what the paper pushing publishers want to see happen. Then they can pat themselves on the back and say, "See, we knew there was no market for ebooks!"

Personally, I will be making a list of every publisher and all their subsidiaries who choose to participate in this price fixing. And if an author I like badly enough to want to read them is represented by one of those publishing houses, I'll be getting their books wholly through secondhand sources or the library--consequently, those publishers and authors will not make a dime off those sales, but hey, that's the way it was before I bought a Kindle.

So far, I've spent over $1500 on books this past year--with only THREE in paper form. That, BTW, is significantly more than I spent on books in the previous four years combined, and I'm a heavy reader. I picked up perhaps four hardcovers a year--always on sale--and perhaps a dozen paperbacks new. Everything else was secondhand. I bought exactly one used book this year, and that only because it was out of print. I bought literally hundreds every year prior to getting a Kindle.

The funny part is, I didn't care about $9.99 before. I was more than happy to purchase certain books at a higher price to get a release a few days ahead of the usual NYT bestseller price drop. Because, you see, I had the _option_ to do so. Now that MacMillan wants to cram their extremely overpriced books down my throat, I'll most definitely be "speaking through my wallet". The several hundred of my money they got this year will be budgeted elsewhere going forward. And yes, I'll be sending mail to them, and to any other publisher who joins them, detailing what I spent this past year versus my previous buying habits, and what I'll not be spending with them going forward.

[As an example of why I will most definitely target MacMillan: Barnes & Noble has Donna Andrews' "Six Geese a Slaying" available right now in three forms. The hardcover--over a year old--is listed at $19.62. The ebook has a list price of $14.99 (marked down by BN.com to $6.29). The paperback has a list price of $6.99, also marked on "sale" by BN.com to $6.29. Note that the MacMillan subsidiary that publishes this book thinks the digital file should be $14.99, a year after the hardcover was released. And the paperback is already available, and MacMillan has listed it at a normal and customary price. MacMillan is notorious for this, and for delaying the release of ebook sales sometimes months after the hardcover. I don't believe for a heartbeat that any of this will change, save that we'll no longer get the discount Amazon once provided. Add in that the major publishers are forcing their authors to take a lower royalty on ebook sales, and I'm just not as willing to spend my hard earned money with them any longer.]

It'll certainly be interesting to watch over the coming months! I foresee a high probability of my money ending up on a hobby other than reading until this all shakes out, since reading DTBs is difficult due to health issues. Hence the reason I went Kindle in the first place.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

VictoriaP said:


> There are lots of people who are appalled enough at the $9.99 price; when it goes to $14.99, most people will go buy the hardcover....which is exactly what the paper pushing publishers want to see happen. Then they can pat themselves on the back and say, "See, we knew there was no market for ebooks!"


As noted, my perspective on most of this is quite different from yours, but I think you are right on target there.


----------



## Rasputina

The Hooded Claw said:


> I don't think there's going to be much speaking through wallets on this issue. People who follow this sort of thing on KB or even on the Amazon forum are only a small percentage of Kindle users, and Kindle users are only a modest percentage of book buyers (I know we buy a lot of books, but there are a lot of DTB readers who buy lots of books too). The vast majority of readers will buy their books without ever realizing this happened, except perhaps a few Kindle readers who will be disappointed that there aren't many $9.99 books around anymore. Unless Amazon unexpectedly stiffens up, I think this is going to be one where the publishers win for awhile. Looks like ebooks are going to go through the whole process that digital music went through. I'd hoped publishers might be enlightened enough to try to be ahead of the technology, but that's clearly not gonna happen for now.
> 
> But it will be okay, there are lots of books from Kindle and others that are well under $9.99, and those of us who want a book badly enough can pay $14 or whatever the figure ends up being (Presumably Amazon is still trying to negotiate those details--I suspect their "surrender" is a gesture in the negotiations).


yep, ITA. A couple forums on the internet do not the whole book buying or even ebook reading public make. Even for most avid readers this will go by without any notice. The vast majority of avid readers don't bother to keep up on the minutiae details of publishing.


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## ginaf20697

Yeah, library here I come!


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Rasputina said:


> yep, ITA. A couple forums on the internet do not the whole book buying or even ebook reading public make. Even for most avid readers this will go by without any notice. The vast majority of avid readers don't bother to keep up on the minutiae details of publishing.


Pollsters do not have to poll an entire country to get a pretty good reading on an issue. No, we are certainly not all of the e-book readers in the world, but we are a good representation. And the others who haven't been following this will certainly notice the price increases and respond according to their own buying limits.


----------



## Carld

mcl said:


> And the first sentence sums it up nicely: "In a fight over the price of electronic books, Amazon.com has blinked."
> 
> Thus setting the stage for the other five major publishing houses to do likewise, heralding the beginning of the $15 ebook across the board.
> 
> I have 18 days to decide whether or not to return the Kindle. Right now, I'm leaning very strongly towards doing so, as I've no desire to own a Kindle in such a situation. I'm willing to pay $9.99 because that's pretty much what I pay when I grab a paperback off the shelf. I'll refuse to pay $15 for exactly the same reason.


Honestly, I'd keep the Kindle. I rarely (as in almost never) bought $9.99 books anyway, and I'm not usually much Best Seller reader. I don't know how this is all going to shake out, but I know I'll have plenty to read that priced well below $15.

Carl


----------



## Gertie Kindle

ginaf20697 said:


> Yeah, library here I come!


Or Smashwords, or All Romance E-Books are other sites. Don't we have a list somewhere of independent e-book sellers?


----------



## Geoffrey

mcl said:


> if you recognize my choices, why did you state in the post I was responding to: "you may be forced to pay the higher prices"?
> 
> I am not venting; I am discussing. Or, in this case, correcting. You stated I may be forced to pay higher prices. I was clarifying for you exactly why I would NOT be forced to do so.
> 
> Several of you seem to think that, once one raises the "nuclear option" of returning one's kindle, the discussion is over. If that's how you wish to proceed, so be it. But don't think to marginalize anything I have to say just because one of my options happens to be returning the Kindle, whereas you do not have that option. Call it "venting" all you want, but my opinions are just as valid as yours.


What cheek.

I said you're not interested in discussing opposing views. I never said your views are not valid. I also never suggested you should get rid of your kindle.

I responded to your comments about having a select list of authors you wish to read, discomfort over their ebook prices possibly rising and how you do not wish to risk getting a book you won't like by a different author. (I believe you called it a crap shoot.) I was struck by the differences between our book selection style so I commented on that. When one is wed to a specific list of authors, one has fewer options when it comes to book cost. When one selects unknown books to read, one is sometimes disappointed. I stand by both statements.

So let me try a third time: I'm sorry I'm not having the discussion you wish you have. I went off on a tangent I found interesting when you wanted to stay within your talking points.


----------



## VondaZ

Rasputina said:
 

> yep, ITA. A couple forums on the internet do not the whole book buying or even ebook reading public make. Even for most avid readers this will go by without any notice. The vast majority of avid readers don't bother to keep up on the minutiae details of publishing.


"Speaking through wallets" is not meant to be an organized protest in which you have to be knowledgeable about the issues and reading the forums. Speaking through wallets is just saying, "That book isn't worth that much money to me." The question is, will people say that about the new price (whether or not they are aware of these discussions) or will they decide to pay the higher price because they still think it is worth it? If enough people choose the former, they have spoken with their wallets against the price increase without ever needing to read a forum post. If enough people choose the latter, they too, have spoken with their wallets and publishers are correct to charge more now for new releases and pick up the rest of the market later when the big spenders have already bought the book.

Also, even without reading forums, most Kindle users know about the $9.99 pricing plan and they will most likely notice if a lot of the best sellers are no longer available at that price. They may not know why, but they will likely notice the price change and think twice about buying those books. The publishers are obviously going to be prepared for backlash at first, but they will have to wait it out and see if the backlash persists. Some people up in arms today may get tired of the battle and may realize that they really are willing to pay more after the pricing change has been in effect for a while. I don't know how this will fall out, but it will take time for everything to settle the way it ultimately should be.


----------



## ElaineOK

Amazon has sufficient market power, that they didn't have to blink.  They certainly didn't have to announce it before any real efforts at negotiation could have taken place.  My take on this is that Amazon is gambling that hardback sales won't go up, and ebook readers will continue buying lower priced ebooks in much larger numbers than higher priced ebooks (which already happens, btw).  

I fully intend to do all I can to help make those conclusions reality.  Which makes one thing seriously annoying.  I collect samples, then when I am ready to start a new book I look through my samples, pick something that looks interesting, read it and THEN hit the buy it now button.  So, I just read a very long sample filled with the genealogies of the 5 Granddaughters of Queen Victoria the book is about.  Then, I hit the buy it now button -- Not Available.  Ok, so it will be back in a few days; but at what price?  It is out as a trade paperback.  List price is $18.95, B&N has it in paper for $15.19 and $13.67 lower member price.  They do not have it as an ebook.  Oh, well.  I will not pay more than $9.99.  I may be picking something else to read.  

Elaine
Norman, OK


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## Chad Winters

According to the NYT tonight, we lost the battle... Amazon surrendered


----------



## Atunah

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Or Smashwords, or All Romance E-Books are other sites. Don't we have a list somewhere of independent e-book sellers?


I can't figure out if they even have versions of their books on AllRomance that work on Kindle. somewhere on the site they say they sell with and without DRM. But no way to sort of really find out. has anyone bought from them yet? 
There really isn't that much of a choice other than Amazon. If sites even have some non DRM Kindle friendly formats is a very small selection and not a genre I like to read. 
I would spend more money if I didn't have to deal with that confusing DRM issue.


----------



## VondaZ

Another thing to keep in mind is that it may very well be in the Publisher's best interest to charge the higher price at release and make more profit off of those who just have to have it now even if sales drop dramatically at first. If we just sit and wait for the price to drop to our price point and buy it then, the publishers still make their money, they just have to wait a little longer to get it. With no inventory to move out the door, they can afford to do that. 

E-books are not figured into the best seller lists to my knowledge, so the loss of immediate e-book sales won't hurt their book rankings, either. They are better off waiting and hooking the big spenders early and getting the rest of us later. So, for those just wanting to send a message - just delaying your purchase until the price falls may not get the message across - they are still getting your money, plus even more of someone else's. The situation still works to their advantage - and more power to them if it does. Like I've said before, they have the right to make as much profit as we are willing to give them.


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## jaybird123

No big deal.  There are plenty of other books out there at the price I want.


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## legalbs2

Well written, VictoriaP.  I agree with what you wrote.  I am willing to pay $9.99 for an eBook, because I get it instantly and therefore read a heck of a lot more.  Before I rarely purchased a hardcover unless it was one I really wanted to read and own as a keepsake.  Always bought paperback books, which were never over $7.99.  Kindle will lose revenue backing the publishers that want the $14.99 price.  I will go back to the library and get my books for free.


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## BoomerSoonerOKU

As a business owner, I can understand the stance of charging what you want for your merchandise.  But, competition and the customer's perceived value generally factor into pricing more so than what kind of margin you want to make.

I know first hand that people vote with their wallet, and while there are always new customers out there, it's the loyal repeat customer that is your bread and butter.  Hopefully both sides (publishers & Amazon) will find something that works for everyone while keeping customers satisfied.  If that doesn't happen, one or all of the involved parties will feel it.  I just hope it's not the consumer.


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## kwajkat

We should not be charged more for the same book than what it is at Costco, Sams WalMart etc. When the paperback edition comes out then the price should reflect the change.

If they are going to charge more than they better make sure the formatting, etc is the same quality as the paper editions, NO MORE poor formatting, typos etc.

Books that have been out in eformat should not have increased in price, especially when the same formatting etc errors are still there.  Ebooks which were in the $5-7 range in 2008 should not have increased to the $9-15 range in 2009.  That is totally unacceptable. Period!!!!!!!!!! Increase in the new books ok but the others no way.

Out of all these increases they had better give the authors a bigger cut period, no excuses.


----------



## Rasputina

kwajkat said:


> We should not be charged more for the same book than what it is at Costco, Sams WalMart etc.


Why? Barnes and Noble and Borders don't charge the same prices as Costco or Walmart.

Do you insist that Kroger charge no more than Walmart too? What makes books so special? Maybe we should make it so that no store can charge more than any other for the same items. Sounds like Russia 50 years ago.


----------



## Jesslyn

I am disgusted by the whole thing. An excerpt from my blog.

It remains to see what, if any fallout there is for the publisher or the ebook industry as a whole. Certainly, publishers own their content and can set the pricing for it, but I really wonder if they are trying to save hardcover sales, give Amazon a swift kick in the behind by 'siding' with Jobs & the iPad (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Steve+Jobs+Says+Book+Publishers+Hate+Amazon%27s+Kindle) or just don't value the ereader consumer. Whatever the case, I guess they didn't read the article published on Slate last year Does the Book Industry Want To Get Napstered?(http://www.slate.com/id/2222941/pagenum/all/#p2) Nuff said.


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## KindleMom

Jesslyn, that's exactly what I was thinking.  It seems like this decision by MM will only contribute to piracy.  Not that I'd buy an illegal book - I never did with music either - but I've learned I'm the exception, not the rule.

I'm still stuck on the TTS issue - LOL!  I still refuse to purchase books that don't have TTS and always write the publisher, Amazon and the author when I run into this issue and will do so with MM books too.

My library has been getting more business and will now get even more business.  The publishers/authors must love that...


----------



## David Derrico

It's times like this that I'm glad to be an independent author ... while the idea of a huge book deal with a traditional publishing house had always been my dream, I'm thinking more and more of the benefits of being nimble in a quickly-changing eBook industry. I wonder if the big publishing houses read forums and blogs and comments like I do; I wonder if they have any idea what their customers are feeling or how they think. Sometimes I wonder if they "get" eBooks at all. It sure seems like they see them as a threat to be fought, instead of an amazing opportunity to be embraced. "Let's delay releases! Jack up prices to double that of paperbacks! Infest books with DRM! Format them like crap!"

One thing I know for sure is that the vast majority of Kindlers are passionate *readers* (in a world where readers are an endangered species). In other words, the publishers' very best customers. Or, as I see it, the reason I write.

I hate to say it, but the big publishers jacking up prices can only make the prices charged by most indie authors look that much better in comparison. But, if they succeed in killing the fledgling eBook industry before it can really take off, then we all lose.


----------



## luv4kitties

Well, I won't be buying any e-books at higher prices.  I already wasn't willing to pay $9.99 nor was I willing to pay the same price for an e-book as the paperback.  So, if there's something that I really want to read, I'll just check it out from the library.  Any publisher that insists on charging more than about $6.50 for any e-book won't be getting any of my money.  Too bad for them...  They can sell me (for example) 20 books at $6.50 = $130.00 of my money spent (with plenty of profit for them).  OR, the can sell me exactly ZERO books at higher prices.  It won't hurt me at all to not buy their books.  There are PLENTY of books for me to read on my Kindle that are priced appropriately.  The free ones (both public domain and non-public domain) could keep me busy for years.  There are also LOTS of indie authors with excellent books that are a dollar or two.  So, maybe the publishers are doing me a favor--I'll just save my money instead of spending it.


----------



## Leslie

Atunah said:


> I can't figure out if they even have versions of their books on AllRomance that work on Kindle. somewhere on the site they say they sell with and without DRM. But no way to sort of really find out. has anyone bought from them yet?
> There really isn't that much of a choice other than Amazon. If sites even have some non DRM Kindle friendly formats is a very small selection and not a genre I like to read.
> I would spend more money if I didn't have to deal with that confusing DRM issue.


I have bought quite a few books from All Romance and they work just fine. You need to select the Mobipocket format. When you register, you can include the email address of your Kindle. Then, at Amazon, authorize All Romance to send books to your Kindle. When you complete an order, one of the choices for format will be a little envelope. If you click that, it will send the book to your Kindle by email (15 cent charge for this from Amazon). You can also download the book to your computer and transfer to your Kindle with the USB cable.

OmniLit (www.omnilit) is run by the same people who run All Romance and the set up for buying books and sending them to your Kindle is the same. They have a much wider selection, not just romance, and include non-fiction, too.

L


----------



## Leslie

I don't think Amazon blinked.

Clearly, they knew they were going to have to go with the agency model. However, by having this 48 hour selling hiatus and all the attendant publicity, now we all know where the higher prices are coming from -- Macmillan (and the other publishers, if they follow suit) and not Amazon. If Amazon had just raised the prices, everyone would be screaming that they were "promised" and "guaranteed" $9.99 bestsellers. Now Amazon just gets to shrug and say, "Hey, that's what we wanted, too, but..."

It's all very interesting.

L


----------



## AirBeagle

I have to agree with Leslie -- I think Amazon's PR department handled this brilliantly.  They made just enough commotion to grab headlines and interest across the e-book reader base, sent a message to MacMillan that they're not happy with their stance, and at the same time emphasized to their Kindle store consumers that the pricing is not in their hands, blame the publisher for high e-book prices.  Sure, the other publishers may follow suit, but Amazon has made it clear that we the consumer can vote with our wallets (not that there was much doubt to begin with).  I bet the Amazon suits are salivating to get data on MacMillan sales over the next couple months to see what, if any, effect this has on MacMillan revenue.

I, for one, plan on helping Amazon make some pretty charts showing that e-books over $9.99 don't sell and actually hurt both hardcover and e-book revenue.


----------



## Wunderkind

It seems that a flaw in the publishers' view of the e-book market is not fully recognizing that a big reason for e-book market growth was Amazon's $9.99 pricing. While many people that may have purchased an e-book reader based on $9.99 pricing would now be willing to pay more than that for e-books because they have been able to see the benefits of e-books, it remains to be seen whether the e-book market is at a point where a large majority of the market feels like they have been getting a great bargain and are willing to pay more. There is still quite a bit of angst regarding the pricing of e-book readers, let alone what is a fair price for e-books, given their pros and cons.

I just hope this move doesn't end up curbing the growth of e-books; I do have some concerns myself with the idea of pricing e-books the same as physical books, given that e-book owners do not have the same benefits as physical book owners (loaning, resale ability) which ultimately result in the e-reader having to buy rather than borrow and there isn't a secondary market for lower cost e-books. E-books and physical books are not equal.


----------



## hsuthard

I'm so disappointed Amazon capitulated and re-negotiated with MacMillan. I guess we'll see how this will play out over the next 6 months or so. It sure will be interesting!


----------



## 911jason

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> And there are consequences to severing. The author loses the rights to the book and the characters. They are the property of the publisher. The author cannot continue a series with the same characters under a different publisher.


That must not always be true, as Lee Child switched publishers and continues his Jack Reacher series to this day.


----------



## Jeff

911jason said:


> That must not always be true, as Lee Child switched publishers and continues his Jack Reacher series to this day.


Nothing within contract law is always true. Terms are infinitely variable. Sometimes an author will negotiate a contract for X number of books and retain the rights for the characters. That puts the next X books up for grabs, and perhaps without a publisher.


----------



## 911jason

I wasn't trying to infer that I am knowledgeable about contract law, or any other type, for that matter! =)

Just responding to the post that seemed to say characters always belong to publishers.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

911jason said:


> I wasn't trying to infer that I am knowledgeable about contract law, or any other type, for that matter! =)
> 
> Just responding to the post that seemed to say characters always belong to publishers.


Yes, you're right. I shouldn't have spoken so generally.

Well known, best selling authors can negotiate for more favorable terms, but the first time author, desperate for a publisher after dozens of rejections, usually ends up signing a standard contract weighted on the side of the publisher.


----------



## Jeff

911jason said:


> I wasn't trying to infer that I am knowledgeable about contract law, or any other type, for that matter!


You didn't come across that way. I was answering your implied question.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

I e-mailed Janet Evanovich last night and received a response this morning to which I replied.

*My e-mail:*

You can tell your publisher that I will not be purchasing Plum #15 for my Kindle until it comes down to a more reasonable price when the paperback comes out. They can fight with Amazon all they want, but the Boards are burning up with this issue and the consumer will speak through their closed wallets. Neither will I buy the print book.

I have enjoyed Plum 1-14 (more than once on my Kindle), and will enjoy them many times more, but if that is all I ever get to read, so be it.

Thanks for all the great laughs (I'm a Jersey Girl, I can relate) and the memories (taking my grandmother to the funeral home) and especially for Joe Morelli (not forgetting Lula).

*Her response which is what she posted on her website:*

Due to circumstances beyond our control a dispute has arisen between Amazon and my primary publisher Macmillan. The result is that Amazon has removed all Macmillan books from the Amazon website (as well as Kindle). This was a decision made by Amazon, not Macmillan. We regret this inconvenience. You can still find my books, and books by other Macmillan authors, at any other store or website in the universe where books are cheerfully sold.

Best,

Janet

*My response to the above:*

Thanks for your stock answer which doesn't take into consideration that Amazon caved or the fact that e-book readers do not want to go back to print books.

Here is my stock reply. Not one dime of my money will go into MacMillan's money-grubbing/price-fixing pockets. I'm sorry that the authors are hurt by this and I know you have no control, but consumers must take a stand.


----------



## vermontcathy

VondaZ said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that it may very well be in the Publisher's best interest to charge the higher price at release and make more profit off of those who just have to have it now even if sales drop dramatically at first. If we just sit and wait for the price to drop to our price point and buy it then


This is key for me - that the price will eventually drop. I am hoping that if they start off costing MORE than $9.99, that eventually they will drop BELOW $9.99. I hate it when I look up a book that has been out for several years and it costs $9.99. So I'm hoping that the publishers do eventually drop the prices below $9.99. Just as I rarely bought a hard cover, and waited for paperback, I can wait. But the price should drop down to at least no more than what the paperback sells for.

Also, it would behoove Amazon (and McMillan, to calm the public) to announce this, if it is their plan. A simple statement saying that although the prices will start higher, they will come down, generally after X days (and maybe even saying how far they will come down) would really help to calm the outrage of many people. People in general aren't against hardcovers costing more than paperback, and I'd also be fine with new releases costing a little more IF they do come down to paperback prices (LESS than $9.99)


----------



## Gertie Kindle

*Here's the auto-response:*

Thanks for the e-mail ...but HELP! Alex (my webmaster daughter) and I are swamped. We can't manage the volume of mail anymore. It's good to be a success but JEEZ LOUISE who would have thought this many people would want to write to us? We love hearing from you guys, and we read absolutely every letter that comes in, but we just can't send everyone a personal reply anymore. 

If you had a question we'll do our best to get back to you. Also make sure you check out the Q&A section. We have a Frequently Asked Question page there.

I hope you continue to enjoy the Plum series and the site. And make sure you're signed up for the E-News. It goes out twice a month and we think it's lots of fun.

Fondly,

Janet

*************

Hopefully, they will read the letters they receive as promised, but if it takes three months to get to it, then my letter was ineffective.

So, a postcard, which will be easier to read at a glance, will go via snail-mail.


----------



## drenee

That reply is the exact same statement that was on her Facebook page yesterday.  
I guess I can understand that an author would need to push the blame more onto Amazon than 
to her publisher.  
I'm very angry that Amazon is getting blasted for taking a stand for the consumer.  
I have made a decision to try my best not to buy MacMillan books any in any format.  I enjoy going to the library.  Pre-K I went a couple times a week.  It's a habit I can pick up again.  
Please let me be clear that I'm not opposed to books costing 12.99 or 14.99.  In my case I will not be increasing my book budget.  I will get less books with the same amount of money.
I'm upset that a publisher is using strong arm tactics and then trying to push the blame onto Amazon.
deb


----------



## Todd

I don't know about you guys here..but my opinion on this book pricing war, e-reader problem is actually quite easy to solve??   Follow me here ha ha .... but lets just suppose there were no e-readers out right now,I'm still gonna buy the books I want to read right....so why can't amazon take the stance of if you prurchase a Kindle (e-reader) its not something that you can get your books cheaper on but it's a luxury item....So we would still pay the same price for a DTB but now you don't have to go to the store and pick it up its delivered directly to you  , as far as the price on the Kindle they could give you a discount on each book you buy untill you rack up the equivalent to the cost of the Kindle itself...then the pricing on books would go back to the same price as a DTB sitting on the book shelf at a store...I didn't buy the kindle to get cheaper books I bought it for all the other reasons...and Amazon could still make the books they sell Proprietary to kindle I would imagine?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

drenee said:


> That reply is the exact same statement that was on her Facebook page yesterday.
> I guess I can understand that an author would need to push the blame more onto Amazon than
> to her publisher.


Or maybe that's the standard answer MacMillan is making all their authors use. Maybe we should check some other websites.


----------



## Jesslyn

KindleMom said:


> Jesslyn, that's exactly what I was thinking. It seems like this decision by MM will only contribute to piracy. Not that I'd buy an illegal book - I never did with music either - but I've learned I'm the exception, not the rule.
> 
> I'm still stuck on the TTS issue - LOL! I still refuse to purchase books that don't have TTS and always write the publisher, Amazon and the author when I run into this issue and will do so with MM books too.
> 
> My library has been getting more business and will now get even more business. The publishers/authors must love that...


I agree with you on the TTS. I tried to stay away from them, now I just re-enable it.


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## drenee

Good idea, Gertie.
deb


----------



## Geoffrey

Regardless whether that's Ms. Evanovich's wording or if its Macmillan's, it's pretty snarky and would make me less likely to want to read one of her novels in the future.


----------



## luvmy4brats

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Or maybe that's the standard answer MacMillan is making all their authors use. Maybe we should check some other websites.


that's pretty much the same I got from Sherrilyn Kenyon (sp?) the other day on Twitter. According to her, this is all Amazon's doing. Amazon is being greedy. The publishers don't set the price. She stopped talking to me when I asked that if it's Amazon being so greedy why is it the PUBLISHER who's demanding a 70/30 split instead of the current 50/50 and why is it the PUBLISHER that's demanding to set the price of the book ( a new ebook's being between 12.99 and 14.99 instead of Amazon's 9.99) seems to me that the PUBLISHER is the one being greedy.


----------



## chilady1

I will not be wrangled into this pricing structure.  This is no problem - I simply will not purchase any books under the MacMillian title.  I will spend my $$$$ elsewhere.  There are plenty of great books out there for me to purchase.


----------



## Anju 

Not sure which thread to post this question/suggestion in so will do this one.  I'd like to see a sticky, or a locked post with addresses, e-mails, names, etc., for correspondence to go to.


----------



## Granvillen

Although I feel they way most of you feel, the fact is a boycott will only last a short while. All the chest pounding is for naught.  Soon a book you just must read will come along and you will buy the book.  That is how it goes.  You pay the $13 and sooner or later you will buy another "must have" book at the higher price.  No one, including myself, is going to use the Kindle as a $260 paperweight.  No one is not going to buy a $13 book.  We all will.  That is what McMillan and Amazon are betting on.  In fact, this whole action could have been pre-planned with Amazon attempting to come out of it as the good guy, "look I am on the EBookers side".  Amazon will let the buyers decide, right after they sell you the Seattle Space Needle.  Fess up people, 98% of all boycotts fail, and fail completely.  By summer, the price of an ebook will be between $12 and $14, and sales will be continuing to increase.


----------



## Gayle

Okay, now we know books published by Macmillian will cost more.  Will the ebook be released at the same time as the hardback?  Or will the release be delayed?  Will they now consider enabling TTS?  I think these should now be negotiated.  After all, if we have to pay more (if we choose to buy), shouldn't we get more for our money?


----------



## dnagirl

*shrug* I'm perfectly confident in saying that I won't pay more than $10 for any book, any time.  There are plenty of books out there for that price and under that I'm interested in and frankly, I can wait for any new books to eventually drop in price.  If they don't, I'll go to the library and get them.  It really won't be tough at all for me to stick to my guns.  Books over $10 are just not in my budget.


----------



## Atunah

Leslie said:


> I have bought quite a few books from All Romance and they work just fine. You need to select the Mobipocket format. When you register, you can include the email address of your Kindle. Then, at Amazon, authorize All Romance to send books to your Kindle. When you complete an order, one of the choices for format will be a little envelope. If you click that, it will send the book to your Kindle by email (15 cent charge for this from Amazon). You can also download the book to your computer and transfer to your Kindle with the USB cable.
> 
> OmniLit (www.omnilit) is run by the same people who run All Romance and the set up for buying books and sending them to your Kindle is the same. They have a much wider selection, not just romance, and include non-fiction, too.
> 
> L


Thanks Leslie, I'll check out their other site. But I am still not sure about the DRM issue. Do they mark clearly on their site which mobipocket are DRM'd and which are not? I can't seem to find that and they clearly state on their site that although they carry open format Mobipocket they also carry secure and I know I can't use those on the Kindle.

If there was no DRM anywhere period we could buy wherever we want and none of this frustration would be going on. Hmpf.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Granvillen said:


> Although I feel they way most of you feel, the fact is a boycott will only last a short while. All the chest pounding is for naught. Soon a book you just must read will come along and you will buy the book. That is how it goes. You pay the $13 and sooner or later you will buy another "must have" book at the higher price. No one, including myself, is going to use the Kindle as a $260 paperweight. No one is not going to buy a $13 book. We all will. That is what McMillan and Amazon are betting on. In fact, this whole action could have been pre-planned with Amazon attempting to come out of it as the good guy, "look I am on the EBookers side". Amazon will let the buyers decide, right after they sell you the Seattle Space Needle. Fess up people, 98% of all boycotts fail, and fail completely. By summer, the price of an ebook will be between $12 and $14, and sales will be continuing to increase.


Not from me. I've owned my Kindle since 8/08 and have only once overspent on an e-book. I've paid $9.99 a couple of times, but that's it. I've stated my position clearly to one MacMillan author and meant every word. She's lost me as a reader of both e-book and print books.

I'll be checking all my other e-books to see which ones come from the MacMillan Group and those authors will also be getting an e-mail from me.

BTW, MacMillan is owned by a German company, for whatever that is worth.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

luvmy4brats said:


> that's pretty much the same I got from Sherrilyn Kenyon (sp?) the other day on Twitter. According to her, this is all Amazon's doing. Amazon is being greedy. The publishers don't set the price. She stopped talking to me when I asked that if it's Amazon being so greedy why is it the PUBLISHER who's demanding a 70/30 split instead of the current 50/50 and why is it the PUBLISHER that's demanding to set the price of the book ( a new ebook's being between 12.99 and 14.99 instead of Amazon's 9.99) seems to me that the PUBLISHER is the one being greedy.


I didn't think about twitter. I'm there every day.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Zia Star said:


> Okay, now we know books published by Macmillian will cost more. Will the ebook be released at the same time as the hardback? Or will the release be delayed? Will they now consider enabling TTS? I think these should now be negotiated. After all, if we have to pay more (if we choose to buy), shouldn't we get more for our money?


MacMillan says the e-book will be released on the day of the hardcover release or a few days after.


----------



## Daisy1960

*I apologize if I'm repeating someone else, but one other way to show our unhappiness is to boycott the iPad itself. Keep in mind that Apple (i.e., Steve Jobs) was the driving force behind Macmillan; therefore, an iPad boycott would undermine Jobs' bottom line as well.*


----------



## mcl

Granvillen said:


> Although I feel they way most of you feel, the fact is a boycott will only last a short while. All the chest pounding is for naught. Soon a book you just must read will come along and you will buy the book. That is how it goes. You pay the $13 and sooner or later you will buy another "must have" book at the higher price. No one, including myself, is going to use the Kindle as a $260 paperweight. No one is not going to buy a $13 book. We all will. That is what McMillan and Amazon are betting on. In fact, this whole action could have been pre-planned with Amazon attempting to come out of it as the good guy, "look I am on the EBookers side". Amazon will let the buyers decide, right after they sell you the Seattle Space Needle. Fess up people, 98% of all boycotts fail, and fail completely. By summer, the price of an ebook will be between $12 and $14, and sales will be continuing to increase.


Speak for yourself. I will never buy a $13 ebook.


----------



## vg

Jesslyn said:


> I agree with you on the TTS. I tried to stay away from them, now I just re-enable it.


You can re-enable it?


----------



## khrunner

I love that so many people are saying that they will get new books from the library now.  Our city government just closed 4 of the 7 library branches in the district, including two of the busiest, due to lack of money.  Our tax-adverse citizens wouldn't pass a very small increase in property taxes to support the libraries.  One of the reasons frequently cited for opposing the tax was that "nobody" reads books anymore and "everybody" gets all their information from the Internet and reads only electronic media.  What this means for local readers is less service and fewer books available, and more distance to travel to get those books.  It can take, literally, months to get your turn at a new bestseller.  

I've been very interested in this fight.  I never buy music online, so I never paid much attention to that conflict.  Too many CD's already, so I just convert what I want on my Ipod.  I think everyone has an individual point at which something becomes too expensive.  I never bought very many $9.99 books, and I'll buy fewer at $15.  The article in our (endangered) newspaper this morning quotes Amazon as saying the "initial" price will be higher, but will come down over time.  It will be a judgement call on how badly I want to read something.  If it's too pricey, I'll do what I do now - download the sample and wait.  

BTW, if Amazon is reading this  , a FOLDER to put the samples in would be very nice.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

Since I bought my Kindle (just about 2 years ago now?), I've bought only a single novel that was more than $9.99 (and maybe two at that price). It was from a major publisher and an author whose previous works I really enjoyed, which was the only reason I decided to spring for it (plus it sounded very interesting to me). It was priced somewhere around $13.50 or so (can't remember exactly now). I should've followed my instincts and passed it by: it turned out to be not nearly as good as I was expecting, and definitely not worth that price. I could've bought two books by an author (Taylor Anderson's _Destroyermen_ series) that I just recently discovered, whose books are half the price and twice as enjoyable. Won't make that mistake again!


----------



## crebel

I have read everything here and on the Amazon boards throughout the weekend and still have a question.  Everyone seems to be equating "New Releases" with "Hardback Releases" - do you think that is accurate?  For example, Lisa Kleypas is a Macmillan romance writer that doesn't usually release in hardback and a new release paperback would be $7.99.  Do you think the higher price structure is going to be ALL new releases in e-format regardless of the paper release being hardback or paperback?

Forgive me if this has been made more clear elsewhere and I am missing the obvious.


----------



## chilady1

Granvillen said:


> Although I feel they way most of you feel, the fact is a boycott will only last a short while. All the chest pounding is for naught. Soon a book you just must read will come along and you will buy the book. That is how it goes. You pay the $13 and sooner or later you will buy another "must have" book at the higher price. No one, including myself, is going to use the Kindle as a $260 paperweight. No one is not going to buy a $13 book. We all will. That is what McMillan and Amazon are betting on. In fact, this whole action could have been pre-planned with Amazon attempting to come out of it as the good guy, "look I am on the EBookers side". Amazon will let the buyers decide, right after they sell you the Seattle Space Needle. Fess up people, 98% of all boycotts fail, and fail completely. By summer, the price of an ebook will be between $12 and $14, and sales will be continuing to increase.


You couldn't be more wrong. I have over 700 books on my Kindle waiting to be read. That should keep me until almost the end of this year! I REFUSE to be strong armed and bullied into a price that makes no sense. I have only purchased two books at the $9.99 price point, I can name them: I, Alex Cross and the Lost Symbol. In the case of the Lost Symbol, could have saved my money but got caught up in the pre-order hype. I will continue my never ending pursuit of good books under the $9.99 threshold. If that means I don't ever get to read another new release so be it. Since getting my Kindle, I have been exposed to a number of independent authors who are writing great stories (in some cases better stories that the more "established" authors we all know) and I will continue to support them and their efforts.

This is nothing but sheer greed and I for one, will not play this game! I would rather wait and get a new release from the library via Overdrive then give my hard earned money out to these publishers that think they can bully us into these new pricing points. This comes down to publishers being caught completely off guard as it relates to a new technology (e-readers, forget whether it is Amazon or not) and refusing to embrace a new way of people reading. The consumer has a great deal of power if they are willing to leverage it. Just my humble opinion -


----------



## Pirate

Because most of my reading is for pleasure, ie Sci-Fi I will not pay more than $10 ($9.99) for an eBook. If it is not available as an eBook for less than $10, I will look for it as a used book first if it is published by Macmillan.


----------



## LisaW.

I'm curious to see what Macmillan will be selling their older ebook prices at, because the MSRP for some of their ebooks are more than their print books. I'll just have to wait and see when amazon reposts Macmillan's ebooks.

I refuse to pay the same price or more for an ebook than a paper book, or over $10 for an ebook. In the future, I plan to email an author every time I would have bought their ebook but refused because of Macmillan's pricing.

As for Apple and Steve Jobs... they've lost quite a bit of my respect over the past few days. If Steve Jobs hadn't let Macmillan set the prices in their MaxiPod (um, I mean... iPad), Macmillan wouldn't have been able to stand up so strongly against amazon. I was planning on buying an apple as my next computer, but if other publishers decide to follow Macmillan's lead, I doubt I'll be buying an apple - books are my passion, and I don't like anyone messing with them. I have to wonder if when Macmillan signed on with apple, they had to sign a contract saying that their ebooks would not be cheaper anywhere else.

As for Macmillan authors blaming amazon, well, you don't want to bite the hand that writes your paycheck.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

luvmy4brats said:


> that's pretty much the same I got from Sherrilyn Kenyon (sp?) the other day on Twitter. According to her, this is all Amazon's doing. Amazon is being greedy. The publishers don't set the price. She stopped talking to me when I asked that if it's Amazon being so greedy why is it the PUBLISHER who's demanding a 70/30 split instead of the current 50/50 and why is it the PUBLISHER that's demanding to set the price of the book ( a new ebook's being between 12.99 and 14.99 instead of Amazon's 9.99) seems to me that the PUBLISHER is the one being greedy.


You're such a big meanie, did you know that?


----------



## Daisy1960

*Somewhere in another thread a member raised the possibility of the Federal government intervening in the situation on the grounds that Apple and the publishers involved are participating in price fixing, thus violating the antitrust laws. Would any of our lawyers know anything about this? Thanks. *


----------



## mcl

LisaW. said:


> I'm curious to see what Macmillan will be selling their older ebook prices at, because the MSRP for some of their ebooks are more than their print books. I'll just have to wait and see when amazon reposts Macmillan's ebooks.


You can go check B&N now. They show the list price as well as the B&N price. For most of Macmillan's books-- including books that have been out for years, and have long since gone to mass-market paperback -- the list price is $14.99.

One can safely assume that, if Macmillan believes the list price for an old ebook is $14.99, that is the price they will command under an agency model.

This is one of the reason I strongly doubt those who insist Macmillan will lower ebook prices over time.


----------



## Leslie

Atunah said:


> Thanks Leslie, I'll check out their other site. But I am still not sure about the DRM issue. Do they mark clearly on their site which mobipocket are DRM'd and which are not? I can't seem to find that and they clearly state on their site that although they carry open format Mobipocket they also carry secure and I know I can't use those on the Kindle.


It will say "secure Mobipocket." I think the vast majority of the books they sell are DRM-free.

L


----------



## Neekeebee

Does MacMillan publish under any other names?  In my book journal entries, I always note the publisher, and I honestly can't remember ever writing "MacMillan" down.  

I was baffled as to why the Apple deal with publishers would be such a threat to Amazon (IMHO, the iPad is not going to sell more ebooks than the Kindle) but Leslie makes a good point.  Now I'm just baffled as to why the publishers can't see how bad they are looking to a concentrated group of their best customers.

N


----------



## luvmy4brats

Just jumping in with my Moderator hat on to say, please keep this nice. Some of these posts have taken a turn towards downright rudeness which we don't allow here on Kindleboards. 

We don't mind a discussion, even a heated one as long as it stays civil. 

~Heather
Moderator


----------



## Cora

mcl said:


> You can go check B&N now. They show the list price as well as the B&N price. For most of Macmillan's books-- including books that have been out for years, and have long since gone to mass-market paperback -- the list price is $14.99.
> 
> One can safely assume that, if Macmillan believes the list price for an old ebook is $14.99, that is the price they will command under an agency model.
> 
> This is one of the reason I strongly doubt those who insist Macmillan will lower ebook prices over time.


Which books were you looking at? I just checked myself and looked at books from authors such as Orson Scott Card, Janet Evanovich, and Robert Jordan. All of their Mass-Market Paperbacks were at either $6.99 and $7.99, with B&N selling them for $6.29, $7.19, and so forth. Maybe you were looking at different books?

Edit: Fixed typo.


----------



## Lynn2010

I won't say I will never buy a book for more than $9.99 but it would be a very rare occasion indeed.  

Before I got my Kindle almost all of the books I read had been out long enough to be in paperback. I doubt that my habits will change much now.

Besides, if most of us don't support the new prices in the first year they will very likely come back down. Let's hang in there and give it a try.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Neekeebee said:


> Does MacMillan publish under any other names? In my book journal entries, I always note the publisher, and I honestly can't remember ever writing "MacMillan" down.


I'm not sure if this list is complete because it doesn't include McGraw/Hill (mostly textbooks and children's books). A lot of their books seem to be non-fiction.

Farrar Straus and Giroux, 
Henry Holt & Company, 
W.H. Freeman and Worth Publishers, 
Palgrave Macmillan, 
Bedford/St. Martin's, 
Picador, 
Roaring Brook Press, 
St. Martin's Press, 
Tor Books
Bedford Freeman & Worth Publishing Group.


----------



## Guest

mcl said:


> I'm not so sure. It's a shame that some authors may be harmed by the review campaign, but those authors chose to do business with those publishers. That choice entails consequences, good and bad. This is one of the bad ones. There's always collateral damage in war. Maybe it'll cause the author to reconsider how their publisher is behaving, and take the issue up with them.


You say this as if getting a publishing contract is like choosing where to eat dinner tonight. Authors struggle for years to find a publishing house willing to invest in their book. These authors are already under contracts that they can't just drop because some misguided individuals threaten to give them bad reviews for things that have nothing to do with their actual writing. The majority of authors have ZERO control over the pricing of their books.

Now if you really want to help authors, I fully agree that people need to leave more reviews for indie works. But at the same time you also need to be willing to support indie writers with a real price. Think about the authors that you want to target by leaving bad reviews. Their only other option is to self-publish. Now they went through a traditional publisher, who gave them an advance. The publisher handled all the marketing and distribution costs. So maybe they only get $2 a sale, but they already got an advance of $500-$5000 and no money out of pocket.

Without the publisher, they have to self-publish. Which means all the promotional and distribution costs come out of there pockets. And too many people around here adamantly oppose paying more that $1.99 for a "new author" and a lot expect a new author to practically give away their first book for free.

So you expect these authors to make a choice between an upfront advance, no financial outlays, and $2 a sale versus no advance, absorbing all costs, and making 35 cents per book?

While I understand the need to control the ceiling, so to speak, on pricing, we also need to raise the bottom in order to balance things out.


----------



## VictoriaP

Cora said:


> Which books were you looking at? I just checked myself and looked at books from authors such as Orson Scott Card, Janet Evanovich, and Robert Jordan. All of their Mass-Market Paperbacks were at either $6.99 and $7.99, with B&N selling them for $6.29, $7.19, and so forth. Maybe you were looking at different books?
> 
> Edit: Fixed typo.


Just one example from BN.com.

Janet Evanovich:

One for the Money--THE VERY FIRST STEPHANIE PLUM BOOK, NOW FIFTEEN YEARS OLD: List price, $27.99, Ebook price $6.39!

The LIST price is what you should be concerned about. That's the price MacMillan says the ebook is worth. That's the price that BN.com and Amazon are having to pay out royalties on--under the 50% contract that the companies use today, that means that BN pays out $13.99 to MacMillan for every copy of that ebook sold. That kind of pricing is the type of crap you can assume the publisher is going to continue with--even if they cut the price in HALF, it's still far far far more money than you're going to pay for the paperback, which is sold at $7.19.

Look again at MacMillan's listings. While this one is the most extreme I saw, last night every single book I looked up that I knew for certain fell under their umbrella had significantly higher list prices than the current paperback. Most were double.


----------



## Malweth

sheltiemom said:


> I have been thinking a lot about the "perceived" value. I go dancing and take dance classes a couple of times a week. The total cost is about $11 per class, or $11 per hour. How often do I buy a $9.99 e-book that takes me only one hour to read? I still go dancing for social interaction and I still go to the gym for exercise, but if you count cost per hour spent doing the activity, I get more "value" out of my books on my Kindle.


The difference is significant. A dance class requires personal time with a teacher. This time is limited. If that teacher put out a book or DVD, the price might be the same, but again the popularity of the content plays a factor (if it's sold to the same 20 people that take the class, the cost should really be much higher). This teacher's book or video can be compared with a professor's textbook (which often cost over $100).

It would be better to compare a widely available book to a mainstream movie. DVDs typically cost about $20 for two people to see in the theater or about $15-20 new on DVD. The cost of production for most movies is in the millions of dollars, but the number of consumers is very high. A book like _The Lost Symbol_ was widely marketed and purchased. (I bought the hardcover, pre-kindle, and regretted it). I can only assume that the costs for such a popular book is similar to that of a less popular new-release hardcover (the only additional costs coming from extra advertising and probably vendor discounts).

Summing up... a hit movie costs in the order of millions and sells at about $15 per copy, a hit book costs in the order of ten-thousands and sells at about $15 per copy (in stores)... The amount of entertainment purchased is approximately equivalent.

Before I get slammed... I realize it's not quite so cut and dry... The following (and more) have been left out (above):
1) Flops. The publishers have a higher flop:hit ratio than movies do (though movies flop a lot harder).
2) Niche. Publishers have many more niche markets than movies do... both have their own means of handling special markets.

----

Here's what I think the publishers are doing WRONG...
They're still taking on hit-or-miss books (their biggest cost)! A new medium is available that promises very low costs. What prevents a publishing house from first _e-releasing_ a book with tentative potential or mixed reviews? The known hits can be printed en masse... the unknowns can graduate from electronic formats. This seems to be how the indie market is working now, but if publishing houses would tap books and use the Kindle/Nook/iPäd as their proving ground..... the contracting could still be favorable for both parties (author & publisher). My suggestion fundamentally changes the publisher's modus operandi, but I think it's about time for that.


----------



## ElaineOK

We need to remain aware of a few things.  

1.  All the evidence indicates that less expensive ebooks sell far better than more expensive ones;

2.  There have been 3 million Kindles sold -- and about 9,000 members on Kindleboards;

3.  Everything works better the easier it is -- so, get out on Book Corner and Goodreads and wherever else and start recommending ebooks you have enjoyed for $9.99 or less.

Elaine 
Norman, Oklahoma


----------



## Shastastan

Leslie said:


> Clearly, you want to use your limited free time to go to the book store and as you said, "touch the book, read the covers and front material, check several spots in the book, and generally get a feel for what I'm about to get into on a first-person basis." Have at it. You know what? We have lots of members who do the same thing, Kindle in hand and then when they find a book they like, they buy it on their Kindle (yes, right there in the bookstore). Yes, maybe they are prostituting the B&M bookstore but it's a dog eat dog world.
> 
> If you don't like your Kindle, return it. If you like it, figure out a way to make it work for you.
> 
> L


Bump


----------



## mcl

Cora said:


> Which books were you looking at? I just checked myself and looked at books from authors such as Orson Scott Card, Janet Evanovich, and Robert Jordan. All of their Mass-Market Paperbacks were at either $6.99 and $7.99, with B&N selling them for $6.29, $7.19, and so forth. Maybe you were looking at different books?
> 
> Edit: Fixed typo.


i didn't say to compare the price B&N sells the ebooks for, to the cost of the identical mass-market paperback.

I said to look at the list price for the ebook. Which is not the price B&N sells the ebook for, but instead is the price Macmillan says the ebook should be sold for.


----------



## Cora

VictoriaP said:


> Just one example from BN.com.
> 
> Janet Evanovich:
> 
> One for the Money--THE VERY FIRST STEPHANIE PLUM BOOK, NOW FIFTEEN YEARS OLD: List price, $27.99, Ebook price $6.39!
> 
> The LIST price is what you should be concerned about. That's the price MacMillan says the ebook is worth. That's the price that BN.com and Amazon are having to pay out royalties on--under the 50% contract that the companies use today, that means that BN pays out $13.99 to MacMillan for every copy of that ebook sold. That kind of pricing is the type of crap you can assume the publisher is going to continue with--even if they cut the price in HALF, it's still far far far more money than you're going to pay for the paperback, which is sold at $7.19.
> 
> Look again at MacMillan's listings. While this one is the most extreme I saw, last night every single book I looked up that I knew for certain fell under their umbrella had significantly higher list prices than the current paperback. Most were double.


Ah, I was looking at the Mass-Market Paperback prices, which don't have a "List Price" just the "Online Price". They have about five version of each of these books and all the prices are different. Are the Mass-Market Paperback prices not controlled by the publisher? The differences between the Mass-Market prices and those that I've seen listed as just "Paperback" or "Trade Paperback" are pretty significant.


----------



## Seamonkey

From the Call to Arms thread, first post

And just to be clear, the following publishers are all Macmillian related.  Know the enemy:

* Macmillan Publishers (United States) (formerly called Holtzbrinck Publishers)
o Farrar, Straus and Giroux
+ Faber & Faber
o Henry Holt and Company
+ Holt Paperbacks
+ Metropolitan Books
+ Times Books
+ Owl Books
o Palgrave Macmillan
o Picador
o Roaring Brook Press
+ First Second Books
o St. Martin's Press
o Tom Doherty Associates
+ Tor Books
+ Forge Books
o Bedford, Freeman and Worth Publishing Group
+ W.H. Freeman
+ Bedford/St. Martin's
+ Worth Publishers
o Nature Publishing Group
+ Scientific American, Inc.


----------



## Cora

mcl said:


> i didn't say to compare the price B&N sells the ebooks for, to the cost of the identical mass-market paperback.
> 
> I said to look at the list price for the ebook. Which is not the price B&N sells the ebook for, but instead is the price Macmillan says the ebook should be sold for.


I actually wasn't looking at the e-book prices at all, but I see what you're saying now. I was looking at the Mass-Market prices, assuming that was something that was controlled by the publisher.

After looking at all the different prices, I can understand better why there's so much frustration going on about the differences between the List Price, the Mass-Market Price, and the e-book Price.


----------



## mcl

bardsandsages said:


> You say this as if getting a publishing contract is like choosing where to eat dinner tonight. Authors struggle for years to find a publishing house willing to invest in their book. These authors are already under contracts that they can't just drop because some misguided individuals threaten to give them bad reviews for things that have nothing to do with their actual writing. The majority of authors have ZERO control over the pricing of their books.
> 
> Now if you really want to help authors, I fully agree that people need to leave more reviews for indie works. But at the same time you also need to be willing to support indie writers with a real price. Think about the authors that you want to target by leaving bad reviews. Their only other option is to self-publish. Now they went through a traditional publisher, who gave them an advance. The publisher handled all the marketing and distribution costs. So maybe they only get $2 a sale, but they already got an advance of $500-$5000 and no money out of pocket.
> 
> Without the publisher, they have to self-publish. Which means all the promotional and distribution costs come out of there pockets. And too many people around here adamantly oppose paying more that $1.99 for a "new author" and a lot expect a new author to practically give away their first book for free.
> 
> So you expect these authors to make a choice between an upfront advance, no financial outlays, and $2 a sale versus no advance, absorbing all costs, and making 35 cents per book?
> 
> While I understand the need to control the ceiling, so to speak, on pricing, we also need to raise the bottom in order to balance things out.


First, most authors do not get an advance. If they do, it's a pittance.

Second, everyone entering into a contract has a choice: the choice of not entering into it.

Third, there are options other than self-publishing. Signing with a different publisher, for example. And being more aware of the contract terms before signing, and negotiating prior to signing.

Fourth, self-publishing distribution costs are nil. The sum total of self-publishing distribution costs: transmission of the manuscript. These days, that's electronic. There's a reason it takes less than a minute to transfer a book to a kindle: because the total size of an ebook is exceedingly small. And with retailers like Amazon offering print-on-demand services, the only thing the author has to deal with are the contract terms. Which, again is a voluntary agreement, not something they're forced into at gunpoint.

Fifth, I've never insisted that new and/or indie authors give away content, or sell it at a very low price. I'd happily pay $9.99 for an indie author's work if it's of the same quality as established authors' works that I enjoy. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I agree that promotional issues are a problem, particularly when the publisher is excluded. I don't have a good solution to that, other than that the author needs to produce quality work and find some form of aggregator that allows for community vetting of the title. Amazon is one such aggregator.


----------



## mcl

Cora said:


> I actually wasn't looking at the e-book prices at all, but I see what you're saying now. I was looking at the Mass-Market prices, assuming that was something that was controlled by the publisher.
> 
> After looking at all the different prices, I can understand better why there's so much frustration going on about the differences between the List Price, the Mass-Market Price, and the e-book Price.


Good that you're starting to see the issues here.

It's important to realize that B&N sells the ebooks for the price they do explicitly because they are NOT in an agency model: they can choose to sell the ebooks at a loss, as a loss-leader. This is what Amazon has been doing for the Kindle. And this is exactly what will change when the Macmillan contract terms begin in March. Rather than $9.99, you'll be paying what Macmillan insists. And that price is the "list price" you're seeing on B&N right now.


----------



## LisaW.

I think that once Macmillan kindle books return to amazon, amazon should replace their 'I'd like to read this book on Kindle' link, with 'No way in hell I'd pay that price for this Kindle book'.

Or, I guess they could have a nice link that says 'I will not pay the current price for this kindle book'.


----------



## geoffthomas

It seems to me that you all have wandered around an important point:

Most of us bought our Kindles to avoid more costly Hard Bound books.
The list price of most titles on the Best Selling list is around $35.00.
Now yes I realize that there is a book store almost automatic 30% discount.
But my point it I was going to Amazon for an ebook of a brand new title for $9.99  rather than $35.
And many novels I found I was not reading a second time (only the ones by my favorite authors).
Paperbacks almost don't enter into my equation because they are not available until normally a year later.
So I am comparing McMillian's price of $14 to $35 (or discounted $2.

If I am going to wait a year for an author's work then yes I would, at that time, expect the ebook to be reduced to be much lower than the price of the paperback book.  I have found very few of the paperbacks for major titles listing for as low as $10.

I don't want to say that I am in favor of $14 ebooks.
I AM saying that a price that high is much lower than the Hard Bound books.

I will point out that since purchasing my Kindle I have found an incredible supply of wonderful books (mostly by KB resident authors, I might add) for prices much less than $9.99 - and most of the money has gone to the authors.  I have only one major author who I will pay higher prices for.

Now if we take this dynamic and look at the prior posts, I think it changes the view....kinda like using a filter on a camera.

Just sayin.....


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Seamonkey said:


> From the Call to Arms thread, first post
> 
> And just to be clear, the following publishers are all Macmillian related. Know the enemy:
> 
> * Macmillan Publishers (United States) (formerly called Holtzbrinck Publishers)


For the record, this is from MacMillan's website.

*Macmillan in the US is a group of publishing companies in the United States held by Verlagsgruppe Georg von Holtzbrinck, which is based in Stuttgart, Germany.
*

So it's just a name change, not an ownership change.

Thanks for posting the full list. I updated my file.


----------



## BTackitt

That's a solution, mine works for me, I buy what books I want at prices I am willing to pay, there are 2 authors I might be willing to pay $10 or so a book for, but honestly theres just so much other stuff to read out there now, that I think I get 1 book at that price every 6 months or so, normally I pay under $2. and I read ALOT of free stuff from all sorts of places, so my price per book is under $0.20 when all is said and done.


----------



## mcl

geoffthomas said:


> It seems to me that you all have wandered around an important point:
> 
> Most of us bought our Kindles to avoid more costly Hard Bound books.
> The list price of most titles on the Best Selling list is around $35.00.
> Now yes I realize that there is a book store almost automatic 30% discount.
> But my point it I was going to Amazon for an ebook of a brand new title for $9.99 rather than $35.
> And many novels I found I was not reading a second time (only the ones by my favorite authors).
> Paperbacks almost don't enter into my equation because they are not available until normally a year later.
> So I am comparing McMillian's price of $14 to $35 (or discounted $2.
> 
> If I am going to wait a year for an author's work then yes I would, at that time, expect the ebook to be reduced to be much lower than the price of the paperback book. I have found very few of the paperbacks for major titles listing for as low as $10.
> 
> I don't want to say that I am in favor of $14 ebooks.
> I AM saying that a price that high is much lower than the Hard Bound books.
> 
> I will point out that since purchasing my Kindle I have found an incredible supply of wonderful books (mostly by KB resident authors, I might add) for prices much less than $9.99 - and most of the money has gone to the authors. I have only one major author who I will pay higher prices for.
> 
> Now if we take this dynamic and look at the prior posts, I think it changes the view....kinda like using a filter on a camera.
> 
> Just sayin.....


That's great, but I don't buy hardcovers. I buy trade or mass-market paperbacks. I refuse to pay MORE for an ebook than the cover price on a paperback.


----------



## mcl

because ebooks cannot be lent, or resold.

because ebooks do not incur the overhead costs that printed media do.

because the agency model doesn't allow Amazon to sell at the price you'd pay in the store.  Stores are allowed to set their own pricing and offer sales and discounts.  Amazon would be forced to sell at whatever price Macmillan decides.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

geoffthomas said:


> Now if we take this dynamic and look at the prior posts, I think it changes the view....kinda like using a filter on a camera.
> 
> Just sayin.....


Only if you are in the habit of buying hardback books at first release. In that case, there is a significant savings between the HB and the KB.

I don't do that and I'm willing to wait a year for the price to come down to PB level.

In the meantime, as you said, there are many wonderful indie authors and smaller presses that put out really good books. We've all read stinkers from the Big Boys.


----------



## Geoffrey

Great.  And if prices go up to some astronomical level, then I won't purchase that ebook and Macmillan will have earned $0 from me.  

They can be as totalitarian as the want with their prices and models and it doesn't matter.  They are betting the farm that we are so desperate for their content that we will pay whatever they decree.  Failing that, they are assuming they are big enough to kill ebooks so they can go back to their old financial model.

Neither option will happen.  Consumers aren't as stupid as corporations think.  No one can force us to buy anything we don't want to buy and there are too many other ebook options available for the consumer for one Publishing house to dictate the market's direction.  If no one buys their ebooks and do not replace them with Macmillan pbooks, their market share will fall ... the other major publishing houses won't follow Macmillan's model if it ends up decreasing sales .... Let the market work ...


----------



## drenee

I put a limit on myself of about $6.00 or less.  I have bought one or two at the $9.99 price.  
There are a couple of authors I would pay $7.00 or so for, but only for a book or two.  
Case in point:  J.D. Robb and the In Death series.  Most of the books are in the $6 to $7 range.  
For 34-plus books, if I read the entire series, that's just too much for me.  I can afford it.  I 
just don't want to. 

Even at the $6.00 price I am very picky on what books I actually purchase.  
I had a budget pre-K.  I still have a budget with my Kindle, and that includes K-books, and HB books.  

Since I rarely paid $9.99, I don't see myself paying anything higher than that.  
deb


----------



## Rasputina

Well it's on Yahoo this morning. Interesting that also have the stock prices for Apple, B&N and Amazon next to the article. Apple and B&N up, Amazon has lost 10 points so far today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100201/ap_on_hi_te/us_amazon_macmillan


----------



## eBook Resistance

Never in the history of the internet has so much been asked of so few. We are fighting not just for the freedom of our eBooks, not just from tyranny, or oppression, or persecution... but from annihilation. We are fighting for our eBooks to live and be read at a fair price. For their right to exist independently of the publishers greed. Let today be the day we the declare to the enemy in one voice: _"You shall not press down upon the brow of readers this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify the eBook upon a cross of gold! We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! We shall rage against the dying of the light!"_

Join the eBook Resistance. Boycott all eBooks over $9.99, especially those from the Macmillan Tyranny and its subsidiaries. Know the enemy:

Macmillan Publishers (United States) (formerly called Holtzbrinck Publishers)
Farrar, Straus and Giroux
Faber & Faber
Henry Holt and Company
Holt Paperbacks
Metropolitan Books
Times Books
Owl Books
Palgrave Macmillan
Picador
Roaring Brook Press
First Second Books
St. Martin's Press
Tom Doherty Associates
Tor Books
Forge Books
Bedford, Freeman and Worth Publishing Group
W.H. Freeman
Bedford/St. Martin's
Worth Publishers
Nature Publishing Group
Scientific American, Inc.


----------



## Geoffrey

Dude, 

Turn down the rhetoric.  This isn't the People's Revolution.


----------



## Rasputina

Todd said:


> I don't know about you guys here..but my opinion on this book pricing war, e-reader problem is actually quite easy to solve??  Follow me here ha ha .... but lets just suppose there were no e-readers out right now,I'm still gonna buy the books I want to read right....so why can't amazon take the stance of if you prurchase a Kindle (e-reader) its not something that you can get your books cheaper on but it's a luxury item....So we would still pay the same price for a DTB but now you don't have to go to the store and pick it up its delivered directly to you , as far as the price on the Kindle they could give you a discount on each book you buy untill you rack up the equivalent to the cost of the Kindle itself...then the pricing on books would go back to the same price as a DTB sitting on the book shelf at a store...I didn't buy the kindle to get cheaper books I bought it for all the other reasons...and Amazon could still make the books they sell Proprietary to kindle I would imagine?


It was an option, but Amazon chose to go with the marketing strategy of cheaper books on the kindle and to take a loss on the books to get kindle market share. I don't think they could effectively switch to the plan you propose at this point. I understand what you are saying, I didn't by my kindle for cheaper books either. My primary purpose at the time was to have something portable to read the many digital books and documents I already had on my computer.


----------



## drenee

I discovered something interesting.  To me anyway.

A friend recommended a book to me on Thursday.  I dl a sample, but the e-book is $14.30.  
Too much for me to pay no matter how much I like the book.  
I looked the author up this morning.  He is a MacMillon author and his book never left the Amazon website.  
deb


----------



## mcl

Geoffrey said:


> Great. And if prices go up to some astronomical level, then I won't purchase that ebook and Macmillan will have earned $0 from me.
> 
> They can be as totalitarian as the want with their prices and models and it doesn't matter. They are betting the farm that we are so desperate for their content that we will pay whatever they decree. Failing that, they are assuming they are big enough to kill ebooks so they can go back to their old financial model.
> 
> Neither option will happen. Consumers aren't as stupid as corporations think. No one can force us to buy anything we don't want to buy and there are too many other ebook options available for the consumer for one Publishing house to dictate the market's direction. If no one buys their ebooks and do not replace them with Macmillan pbooks, their market share will fall ... the other major publishing houses won't follow Macmillan's model if it ends up decreasing sales .... Let the market work ...


yes, but Macmillan and the other publishers, who are doing this precisely because they fear the loss of print profits, can jack up the ebook prices, drastically reduce sales, and then point to the data and declare, "See? Ebooks aren't making any money!" and believe they've saved the print marketplace.

Who suffers in this scenario? The publishers? No. The authors? No. The retailers? No.

Only the consumers suffer.


----------



## vermontcathy

Won't B&N have to play by the same rules for Macmillan books as Amazon and Apple? I can't imagine Macmillan playing hardball with Amazon, but continuing to let B&N sell at a cheaper price...


----------



## dnagirl

geoffthomas said:


> It seems to me that you all have wandered around an important point:
> 
> Most of us bought our Kindles to avoid more costly Hard Bound books.
> The list price of most titles on the Best Selling list is around $35.00.
> Now yes I realize that there is a book store almost automatic 30% discount.
> But my point it I was going to Amazon for an ebook of a brand new title for $9.99 rather than $35.
> And many novels I found I was not reading a second time (only the ones by my favorite authors).
> Paperbacks almost don't enter into my equation because they are not available until normally a year later.
> So I am comparing McMillian's price of $14 to $35 (or discounted $2.
> 
> If I am going to wait a year for an author's work then yes I would, at that time, expect the ebook to be reduced to be much lower than the price of the paperback book. I have found very few of the paperbacks for major titles listing for as low as $10.
> 
> I don't want to say that I am in favor of $14 ebooks.
> I AM saying that a price that high is much lower than the Hard Bound books.
> 
> I will point out that since purchasing my Kindle I have found an incredible supply of wonderful books (mostly by KB resident authors, I might add) for prices much less than $9.99 - and most of the money has gone to the authors. I have only one major author who I will pay higher prices for.
> 
> Now if we take this dynamic and look at the prior posts, I think it changes the view....kinda like using a filter on a camera.
> 
> Just sayin.....


Geoff, I buy hardbacks of one author only, because I like to have a "library" of his works. Other than that, I pass up on the HB and wait for the paperback every single time. I have multiple reasons for this, one of them being cost. The second is portability. So honestly, it doesn't change my view at all. I will continue to buy the HB of that one author when he releases his books and Kindle the rest and I still won't pay over $10 for any of them. Heck, I didn't even pay $10 for the most recent HB release I bought.


----------



## luv4kitties

Well, there were a couple of Tor books that I had on my Amazon wish list.  I'd planned to buy them to read over the next weekend.  Now I'm not going to buy them at all.  I checked them out from my local library this morning.  I hadn't visited the library since purchasing my Kindle, but, now that I have visited again, I realize that I've missed going.  The librarians are nice and very helpful and they have SO MANY books to read (many newly released ones too) and you can read anything you want for free.  So, that's what I'm going to do.  I'll just keep the Kindle (which I do love) for reading free books (public domain and non-public domain) and books that are cheap.  I have hundreds of books already on the Kindle that I haven't read yet (most of which were free or just a few dollars)--enough reading for years.  I'll probably still buy a book occasionally BUT I never spent $9.99 for an e-book and I certainly won't ever spend more.  I haven't decided on my new price point for Kindle books, but it will be lower now.  I WAS willing to spend about $6.50 for an e-book before all this nonsense.  Maybe I'll still spend $6.50 occasionally, if I can find a book from one of my favorite authors (and there are only two) for that price.  For the rest of the books, I think I won't spend more than $2.00 (maybe $2.99 if it looks like a really good book).  So far as DTB that I used to buy, I typically waited for the paperbacks to come out and would only rarely buy a hardcover (and then only when it was one of my two favorite authors and was HIGHLY discounted...).  I'm not going to be buying more DTB in the future, though, because I just don't want them piling up in my house.  So, the library is my friend again!

In my honest opinion, books have always been overpriced.  The overpricing has become much worse in the past few years.  That's why most people (historically speaking) could not afford books and it's why most everyone (today) goes to the library IF they want to read a book (in my experience, most people don't read very many books).  People would buy and read more books if they weren't overpriced.


----------



## Shastastan

Geoffrey said:


> ......
> They can be as totalitarian as the want with their prices and models and it doesn't matter. They are betting the farm that we are so desperate for their content that we will pay whatever they decree. Failing that, they are assuming they are big enough to kill ebooks so they can go back to their old financial model.
> 
> ..........


Although I'm a big ebook fan, I think that we are in the minority. Many people think that ebooks are just another fad. I'm not sure what % ebook sales are to total book sales and I don't know how to find out. I would point out that MacMillan publishes a lot of textbooks. Perhaps their price concerns relate to potential sales of those textbooks in ebook form? I might be wrong, but I believe there is a large pent-up demand for ebook textbooks just based on the unreasonably high prices of dtb textbooks. Remember back when you were in college and really needed to find a used one, but were stuck with buying a new one? Of course, they update perfectly good texts by making minor changes and adding "fluff." The students are forced to buy the new version. I used to teach at our community college so I know this is true. Could it be that MacMillan and Jobs have a textbook deal in the works? FWIW


----------



## Rasputina

geoffthomas said:


> It seems to me that you all have wandered around an important point:
> 
> Most of us bought our Kindles to avoid more costly Hard Bound books.


That is the primary assumption, but I'm not sure I agree. I think that most people bought kindles for it's features including portability and selection. IE I can take a bunch of books with me in a lighter package so I have more selection. Plus all the other features. I think Jeff Bezos sold everyone on the idea of cheaper books, because hey that is Amazons raison d'être. Part of kindles marketing plan was selling the concept of cheaper books and it became tied to the concept of ereaders. This is a significant part of why people are so up in arms over price changes. But I venture that if the marketing scheme hadn't focused to much on cheap books it wouldn't have become the polarizing issue it has become. Why is 9.99 the cut off point for ebooks for so many people? Because the marketing guys did their job very well. People have been sold the idea that 9.99 is THE max reasonable for for an ebook. But the number came out of thin air. Advertising is very effective, in this case it's biting a bunch of people in the rear end.


----------



## Guest

mcl said:


> First, most authors do not get an advance. If they do, it's a pittance.


Define pittance? And further, if you are publishing with a legitimate publisher, they should be offering you something. I publish ebooks and RPG PDFs to a very niche market, and even MY contracts offer small advances.



mcl said:


> Second, everyone entering into a contract has a choice: the choice of not entering into it.
> 
> Third, there are options other than self-publishing. Signing with a different publisher, for example. And being more aware of the contract terms before signing, and negotiating prior to signing.


Again, you say that as if finding a publisher is the easiest thing in the world. The number of respectable publishing houses has shrunk, and competition is high. There are things you can negotiate, and things you can't. It's lovely to think that the author has all this power in negotiations, but they don't. It isn't like publishers are so desperate for product that they are trolling around writer forums soliciting authors.



mcl said:


> Fourth, self-publishing distribution costs are nil. The sum total of self-publishing distribution costs: transmission of the manuscript. These days, that's electronic. There's a reason it takes less than a minute to transfer a book to a kindle: because the total size of an ebook is exceedingly small. And with retailers like Amazon offering print-on-demand services, the only thing the author has to deal with are the contract terms. Which, again is a voluntary agreement, not something they're forced into at gunpoint.


Distribution costs may be "nil" but editing, proofreading, cover art, advertising, soliciting book reviews, placing ads, etc all cost money. Kindleboards is a lovely community, but a single post offering a book for $1.99 isn't exactly a marketing plan. There are literally millions of ebooks available now. Finding your target audience, and reaching them, takes skill, time, and money. All things the average author does not have.



mcl said:


> Fifth, I've never insisted that new and/or indie authors give away content, or sell it at a very low price. I'd happily pay $9.99 for an indie author's work if it's of the same quality as established authors' works that I enjoy. Please do not put words in my mouth..


I didn't mean to imply you specifically. If that is how it sounded, I apologize. However, the general consensus around this forum is that "new" authors aren't worth more than a couple of bucks. I like you would be happy to pay for quality writing regardless of name recognition, but there is a tendency of many folks around her to expect authors to give their first book away practically for free. But it is the double-edged sword, without the time, skill, and resources to promote your work, regardless of price nobody will ever know about it.



mcl said:


> I agree that promotional issues are a problem, particularly when the publisher is excluded. I don't have a good solution to that, other than that the author needs to produce quality work and find some form of aggregator that allows for community vetting of the title. Amazon is one such aggregator.


The issue is that publishing (and by extension book promotion) and writing are two very different skill sets. Being a great writer rarely means you are also a great publisher, and vice versa.

The entire situation is complicated, to be sure. Punishing writers to force them into a bad situation, after they spent years trying to even get a publishing contract, isn't fair to the writers.


----------



## mcl

vermontcathy said:


> Won't B&N have to play by the same rules for Macmillan books as Amazon and Apple? I can't imagine Macmillan playing hardball with Amazon, but continuing to let B&N sell at a cheaper price...


yes, once B&N's contract with Macmillan is up for renewal. As I understand it, these are the terms Macmillan are insisting upon with all online retailers going forward.


----------



## VictoriaP

Geoffrey said:


> Great. And if prices go up to some astronomical level, then I won't purchase that ebook and Macmillan will have earned $0 from me.
> 
> They can be as totalitarian as the want with their prices and models and it doesn't matter. They are betting the farm that we are so desperate for their content that we will pay whatever they decree. Failing that, they are assuming they are big enough to kill ebooks so they can go back to their old financial model.
> 
> Neither option will happen. Consumers aren't as stupid as corporations think. No one can force us to buy anything we don't want to buy and there are too many other ebook options available for the consumer for one Publishing house to dictate the market's direction.  *If no one buys their ebooks and do not replace them with Macmillan pbooks, their market share will fall ..*. the other major publishing houses won't follow Macmillan's model if it ends up decreasing sales .... Let the market work ...


This is the relevant point though. Most people will buy the pbook instead, saying, "If I have to pay $15, I should at least get the hard copy." Therefore, ebook sales go down, pbook sales go up, and the publishers will be ecstatic.

The ONLY way the "speak with your wallets" idea works is if the books aren't bought in any form. And most people won't do that.


----------



## Chad Winters

mcl said:


> i didn't say to compare the price B&N sells the ebooks for, to the cost of the identical mass-market paperback.
> 
> I said to look at the list price for the ebook. Which is not the price B&N sells the ebook for, but instead is the price Macmillan says the ebook should be sold for.


But with the new "agency" system the lsit price won't matter, as I understand, the royalty will be off the sale price.


----------



## Guest

Rasputina said:


> That is the primary assumption, but I'm not sure I agree. I think that most people bought kindles for it's features including portability and selection. IE I can take a bunch of books with me in a lighter package so I have more selection. Plus all the other features. I think Jeff Bezos sold everyone on the idea of cheaper books, because hey that is Amazons raison d'être. Part of kindles marketing plan was selling the concept of cheaper books and it became tied to the concept of ereaders. This is a significant part of why people are so up in arms over price changes. But I venture that if the marketing scheme hadn't focused to much on cheap books it wouldn't have become the polarizing issue it has become. Why is 9.99 the cut off point for ebooks for so many people? Because the marketing guys did their job very well. People have been sold the idea that 9.99 is THE max reasonable for for an ebook. But the number came out of thin air. Advertising is very effective, in this case it's biting a bunch of people in the rear end.


I think $9.99 became considered a fair price because when you get above that number you just as well buy the paperback in terms of fiction. Honestly, if you go to places that were selling ebooks before the Kindle became hot, the price of the typical ebook was actually less than this. Of course, most ebooks available were niche botique presses and such, but $9.99 is actually higher than what the industry _was_ supporting before the rise of the Kindle and the rush of everyone and their brother to create an e-reader. I don't disagree that it may be a bit arbitrary, but as a publisher with some idea of costs/profit ratios, a big publishing house should have no problem making a profit at that point if they actually consider ebooks as part of their overall plan instead of a scary OMG PEOPLE WILL STOP BUYING HARDCOVERS!!!!!! things.


----------



## MarthaT

mcl said:


> yes, once B&N's contract with Macmillan is up for renewal. As I understand it, these are the terms Macmillan are insisting upon with all online retailers going forward.


Wonder how that will work out


----------



## mcl

bardsandsages said:


> The issue is that publishing (and by extension book promotion) and writing are two very different skill sets. Being a great writer rarely means you are also a great publisher, and vice versa.
> 
> The entire situation is complicated, to be sure. Punishing writers to force them into a bad situation, after they spent years trying to even get a publishing contract, isn't fair to the writers.


I have no desire to punish writers. But declaring a need to adapt to a changing marketplace to be punishment, and retreating to the existing model (which is beginning to be abused by large publishing houses such as Macmillan) punishes consumers. Neither is fair.

Everyone involved must adapt. Whether or not that adaptation means authors move towards an independent model is up to the individual author, and up to the publishers, who must adapt to the new markets, not attempt to abort them in a shortsighted attempt to protect their old business model.

Perhaps the eventual outcome of this is authors hiring independent editors and publicists, and self-publishing. Perhaps it isn't. But you're quite correct: independent authors can't just write something, put it up for sale, and expect the customers to start pouring in. They must aggressively self-market, or find others to do the work for them. An excellent example of this is Scott Siegler.

This will mean an initial outlay from the author. However, this shouldn't be viewed as bad; it's a necessary cost of going into business for oneself. Which is exactly what an independent author is: an entrepreneur, just as a contracted author is an employee of the publisher.


----------



## Chad Winters

VictoriaP said:


> This is the relevant point though. Most people will buy the pbook instead, saying, "If I have to pay $15, I should at least get the hard copy." Therefore, ebook sales go down, pbook sales go up, and the publishers will be ecstatic.
> 
> The ONLY way the "speak with your wallets" idea works is if the books aren't bought in any form. And most people won't do that.


I don't know, I think a lot of people are now more willing to go to the library or 1/2 price store than fork over $15-20. "I would have paid 9.99 but not 18, so that one goes on the library list..."


----------



## mcl

MarthaT said:


> Wonder how that will work out


Given that B&N are cut from the same cloth as Macmillan (used to the 'old school' of publishing, with big Manhattan offices), I suspect it'll go smoothly. B&N will initially balk, and then accept the terms. They won't throw the public temper tantrum Amazon did. It's not their style.


----------



## TC Beacham

Now it's up to readers to "vote" with their dollars - it'll be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## luvmy4brats

This is all getting a bit confusing with at least 3 threads all discussing the exact same thing. I'm going to merge them all into this one.


----------



## Andra

I honestly don't mind paying a little more for my ebooks if they are new releases - that is, released on the same day as the hardback.  I just don't want to pay MORE for the ebook than whatever the cost of the current print release.
For example, there are several authors on my "instant gratification" list.  I used to purchase the hardback on release day.  Now I get it on my Kindle.  If it's not available electronically, it goes on the library list.
When the print version hits paperback, I expect the price of the ebook to drop as well.  I don't think that's totally unreasonable.  But ultimately it's MY decision whether to purchase or to wait.
I will admit to being upset that Terry Pratchett's ebooks are the same as the list price on the paperbacks.  I own all the titles in hardback (except one or two) and am purchasing the ebooks for reading copies.  With the paperbacks, I can buy three and get one free.  Not on the ebooks...  And this is an author that I REALLY like.
I think it's going to be fun to watch how everything shakes out.


----------



## Rasputina

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I don't know, I think a lot of people are now more willing to go to the library or 1/2 price store than fork over $15-20. "I would have paid 9.99 but not 18, so that one goes on the library list..."


Well, there are different groups. There is the " I'm dedicated to my form of *content delivery* group " that will always prefer ebooks over any other form. These are the folks that say they won't buy anything but in ebook form anymore. And then there is the " I'm dedicated to the *content itself* group. Who are dedicated to reading period in whatever form it is available in. I happen to fall into the latter group. If I want to read a specific book I'm reading it, if it's only available in hardcover I'll buy it and read it, if it's only available in ebook I'll buy it and read it. Part of the reason I bought my kindle was to have a portability option to read ebooks I'd bought that I couldn't get in any other form. Mostly out of print stuff but some independent authors that weren't available in print.


----------



## dnagirl

So will MacMillan be regulating the price of HB and PB books as well, or just ebooks?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

luvmy4brats said:


> This is all getting a bit confusing with at least 3 threads all discussing the exact same thing. I'm going to merge them all into this one.


----------



## Shastastan

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I don't know, I think a lot of people are now more willing to go to the library or 1/2 price store than fork over $15-20. "I would have paid 9.99 but not 18, so that one goes on the library list..."


Before I got my Kindle, I never went to the library because they were only open a few hours a week (I live in a small town). However, I did go to B-N at least once a month looking for bargain hardback books. I found them too--such authors as Cussler, Patterson, Grafton, Crighton, etc.. with prices ranging from 2.99 to 5.99 for hardback books. The print in the hardbacks was a lot easier for me to read. While I now really like my Kindle, I would go back to those bargain books at B-N, if I can't find what I want as an ebook at an affordable (for me) price.


----------



## Rasputina

luvmy4brats said:


> This is all getting a bit confusing with at least 3 threads all discussing the exact same thing. I'm going to merge them all into this one.


oh man this is a wierd thread to read now LOL


----------



## cheerio

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/108723/e-book-pricing-put-into-turmoil



> The $9.99 best seller that helped Amazon.com Inc. build a dominant position in the now-thriving e-book market was at risk of extinction Sunday after Amazon capitulated in a battle sparked by the launch of Apple Inc.'s new iPad.
> 
> Amazon conceded defeat Sunday evening after halting sales of all books published by Macmillan in a dispute over higher e-book prices. Having made the $9.99 e-book a fixture, Amazon now faces the prospect of raising its prices to match new terms Apple is offering publishers.
> 
> "Ultimately we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own books," Amazon said. Amazon's statement suggested it would resume selling Macmillan books, but didn't offer a timeline for doing so.
> 
> Amazon's flip-flop exposes how seriously Amazon is taking Apple's challenge to its position as the market leader in e-book sales. It is the first of what is expected to be a series of upheavals as Amazon and Apple square off over the digital future of book publishing and retailing.
> 
> The picture is likely to get more complicated when Google Inc., the search-engine company, later this year launches its own e-bookstore, Google Editions. Google says it intends to allow publishers to set their own prices -- while reserving the right to discount at its own expense.
> 
> "The future of e-books, the future of publishers' control over their own destiny, and the future of retail pricing, is being forged right before our eyes," said Richard Curtis, a New York literary agent and e-book publisher.
> 
> The issue came to the forefront after Apple unveiled the iPad last Wednesday and disclosed that five major publishers, including Macmillan, will begin selling their own e-books for the device. Publishers will set prices themselves on Apple's iBooks store and many of the new e-book best sellers are expected to be priced at $12.99 or $14.99 -- terms that the publishers are expected to ask Amazon to match.
> 
> Under the Apple model, publishers will receive 70% of each sale, or $10.49 on a $14.99 e-book. This compares unfavorably with what they were receiving from Amazon per title. However, publishers believe that Apple's customer base represents a vast new market and that they will make up the difference on volume. They also believe Amazon's $9.99 price tag doesn't reflect the true value of their books.
> 
> Whether consumers will be willing to pay more for their e-books remains to be seen. After a news conference announcing the iPad, Apple CEO Steve Jobs told a Wall Street Journal columnist that "the prices will be the same" for books on the iPad as on the Kindle.
> 
> The Macmillan fracas came to light after Macmillan Chief Executive John Sargent flew to Seattle to discuss "new terms of sales for e-books" with Amazon last Thursday, the day after the Apple announcement. By the time he returned to New York on Friday, he had been informed that Macmillan's books would not be for sale on Amazon.com directly. By late Friday evening, many of Macmillan's titles had already been removed.
> 
> Mr. Sargent said late Sunday that Macmillan is now "in discussions with Amazon on how best to resolve our differences.They are now, have been, and I suspect always will be one of our most valued customers"
> 
> Macmillan, a unit of Germany's Verlagsgruppe Georg von Holtzbrinck GmbH, boasts such top sellers as "Wolf Hall" by Hilary Mantel. On Saturday it published "The Politician," an account of the John Edwards scandal by former Edwards aide Andrew Young that on Sunday afternoon ranked No. 1 on the best-seller list at Barnes & Noble.com, a unit of Barnes & Noble Inc.
> 
> Neither of those titles was available from Amazon, either in e-book or hardcover versions, over the weekend. Kobo Inc., a Toronto-based e-book retailer, sent out messages on Twitter promoting a page on its site titled "Can't Get These on Kindle" that features 13 Macmillan titles it sells.
> 
> "This isn't really about Macmillan. It's about Amazon fighting for its life with Apple," said Dominique Raccah, publisher of Sourcebooks Inc., based in Naperville, Ill. "Up until now, Amazon has had a significant hold on the future of the book industry. Now a lot of new devices are coming down the pike, the most important of which is the iPad."
> 
> In its statement, Amazon said it doesn't believe that "all of the major publishers" will follow Macmillan's position. Amazon didn't rule out others offering cut-rate prices: "We know for sure that many independent presses and self-published authors will see this as an opportunity to provide attractively priced e-books as an alternative."
> 
> The new pricing demands could have benefits for Amazon. Instead of losing several dollars on new e-book best sellers -- which Amazon was willing to do to push sales -- it stands to make a profit on each title. And publishers are expected now to make their new e-books available on the same day as their hardcovers, a position Amazon has long advocated.
> 
> One publisher that signed up with Apple said it is uncertain what will happen in the next few weeks. "Conversations have only just begun," said Brian Murray, chief executive of News Corp.'s HarperCollins Publishers. News Corp. also owns The Wall Street Journal.
> 
> Other publishers involved with Apple, including Pearson PLC's Penguin Group and Lagardere SCA's Hachette Book Group, declined to comment Sunday. Efforts to reach a spokesman for Bertelsmann AG's Random House book arm, the only major house that hasn't signed on with Apple, were unsuccessful Sunday.
> 
> Doug Miller, a 45-year-old information-technology consultant in Indianapolis, owns two Kindles and dozens of Amazon e-books, but was so frustrated by the removal of Macmillan books that he has put his e-book purchases on hold indefinitely. "It was Amazon that was acting monopolistic. That seriously damages my trust in them," he said. "I'm very leery of further investing in any e-book platform until I see some sort of standardization. In the meantime I'll buy paper books -- but probably not from Amazon."


----------



## VictoriaP

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> But with the new "agency" system the lsit price won't matter, as I understand, the royalty will be off the sale price.


Yes, but MacMillan will be the one setting the price. Using the list prices they currently set, it's not too hard to extrapolate what their likely future behavior will be. They drastically overprice their list prices for ebooks currently, and they're unlikely to do behave much differently going forward.

Using the Stephanie Plum example I posted, right now based on the list price, MacMillan takes in $13.99 for every copy of that ebook sold. In order to bring in that same amount on the 30/70 split, that book still needs to be $20.

Now I don't **really** expect them to go that far. But I sincerely doubt they'll take it down to the ~$6 paperback price. Given we're talking about a 15 year old book, it damn well should be at least that low.


----------



## davem2bits

MacMillan is the first publisher to impose these new rules.  I don't think they will be the last.


----------



## moreta

Apparently - MacMillian wants to sell best selling e-books for 12.99-14.99 and Amazon said no way. Now they have reversed this and are along with MacMillian. I for one will not buy a MacMillian book for that price. Part of the reason I bought the Kindle was so that my book budget would come down a bit. Most of the authors I read don't publish through MacMillian anyway so it shouldn't be that big a deal for me, but it may be for others.

Here is a link to an article about the reversal.
http://thefastertimes.com/fiction/2010/01/31/amazon-caves-to-macmillan-with-passive-aggresive-letter/


----------



## Rebekah

geoffthomas said:


> It seems to me that you all have wandered around an important point:
> 
> Most of us bought our Kindles to avoid more costly Hard Bound books.


Nope. Not me. Pre-Kindle, I waited for the paperbacks, and bought most of those at a discount. I was paying around $4-7 for most of my reading material. I bought a Kindle for two reasons: because I travel a lot, and one Kindle is much better than 4 or 5 paperbacks weighing down a suitcase and because I move a lot, and dislike clutter and unpacking boxes of books. Granted, I used to donate and/or sell most of my books after I was finished, but now I don't even have to bother with that.

As it is, I've more than paid for my investment with the freebies that I've downloaded. Many of these have been great reads and I've gone on to buy other books by those authors. Of the books that I've actually purchased, most of those have been in the $3-5 range. I've discovered a wonderful new group of writers who I would have never read before Kindle.

I can wait for the price to drop.


----------



## dnagirl

My question got lost in the merge of the three threads.

Is MacMillan going to be dictating Amazon's pricing on hardback and paperback books as well, or just ebooks?


----------



## mcl

dnagirl said:


> My question got lost in the merge of the three threads.
> 
> Is MacMillan going to be dictating Amazon's pricing on hardback and paperback books as well, or just ebooks?


I don't know for certain, but all the language seems to indicate that they will set HB and PB prices as well as ebook prices.


----------



## davem2bits

dnagirl said:


> My question got lost in the merge of the three threads.
> 
> Is MacMillan going to be dictating Amazon's pricing on hardback and paperback books as well, or just ebooks?


Definately, gotta keep up with the Jones; their buddies from Wall Street.


----------



## VondaZ

I was a lapsed reader when I bought my Kindle - family life replaced my reading hobby. I intended to read classics on the Kindle as that is what I have mainly read in the past. Because popular fiction is so readily available without breaking my strict entertainment budget, for the first time in my reading history, I have been reading a lot of contemporary fiction and even some best sellers as well, which I have never done in the past. Granted, these books are risky for me as I have specific tastes and much of the stuff I bought failed to impress me in the end. However, I was willing to take that risk because in the process I have found things that I do like. Kindle has converted me into a new potential customer for publishers in an industry that has been struggling. It seems odd that they don't want to grow that new customer base - and that they seem to be downright hostile to it. I don't demand that they meet any specific price point and I don't think I am entitled to any given price, but I do know that I buy so much now because it is affordable so I am willing to take the risk.

It is funny to me that they are so worried about their paper sales that they don't care about losing sales in a medium that costs them less to produce, that I can't share with all my friends, and that I can't give away to charity when I am done. For these books, I don't even care about the DRM. I read them and am done, just like I can watch a movie and not need to own it. They are disposible to me and so DRM doesn't scare me. As long as the price is right, I don't care that I can't share it with everyone I know - I just wanted to experience it - not cherish it forever. That medium should be more profitable for them in the long run. For 15 years, I have not been a paper trade book customer and I was never going to become one again. Pricing e-books high doesn't make me suddenly want to buy paper books when I haven't done that in years.

At lower prices, I am willing to be part of a brand new customer base - and I don't mind waiting for lower prices as long as they eventually reduce the prices to the point older books sell for now. At higher prices, I don't really care enough about the stuff they produce to do that. It is not a protest or anything. I just spend my money carefully and I can keep reading public domain classics or classics that are available at low prices and I can take risks with independent authors - something I have only done a little of so far, but am very willing to explore those avenues since I haven't been overly impressed with mainstream fiction anyway.

Certainly, publishers know how their ebooks have been selling over the last year or two. Certainly they will see a dramatic shift when prices change? Certainly they can't ignore that just to stifle a market they don't understand? And if they do, certainly there is someone out there who will see a huge opportunity and sieze it? Or am I just deluding myself?


----------



## Zorrosuncle

Greetings -- I haven't posted on this board for a while.  I am an "early adapter" on the Kindle and have had it from day one.  I can truly say that my number of books read per year has gone from about 4 to 45 and it is all because of ease of use and ease of purchase.  In addressing the latter point, I don't have to get in a car and go to the library and find that the book is on a waiting list.  I don't have to go into the stores and work my way through confusingly laid out bookstores only to find that the book is not available, sold out or is a special order.  I get instant gratification on my purchase with Kindle and as I say it reflects itself in my increased number of purchases -- over ten fold!

I was worried when Apple entered the market and I figured they would use their financial strength to muscle into the ebook reader market.  Seems very strange that a single publisher in a highly competitive market  is willing to raise its price without fear that the remaining publishers will keep their prices low. Especially when Amazon as a major purchaser has 20 percent of the publisher market. Very very strange.  I think Amazon should take this to court -- sure smells bad!

Furthermore, if any of these publishers think that Apple after they annihilate the other ebook providers will not have a much larger market share and the power that comes thereof, they will soon know it when Apple threatens to ask for a bigger share of the pie.


Zorrosuncle


----------



## Tip10

Here's basically how I see the picture.

Since the inception of the Kindle Amazon has artificially manipulated the eBook market by arbitrarily fixing certain prices, all the while insulating the publishers from the normal pricing feedback forces that should have been existing in a free and open market.

Since they have been insulated from the pricing feedback prevalent in an open market certain publishers have developed pricing strategies based upon false assumptions -- i.e. sales figures generated by the fixed price market, and a ROI not reflective of selling price.

Once the artificial price structure is removed we will probably see some drastic swings in the pricing model of the market until such time as the normal price feedback mechanisms take effect and the publishers start to gain useful data on supply, demand and price structures.  

Amazon, in my opinion, did what they needed to do in order to establish and keep a fledgling market afloat until such time as it took foothold and would be able to support itself.  I believe they were successful in doing so. I also believe that fledgling market has come of age -- as evidence I'd point to the fact that Amazon has already seen daily totals where eBooks outsold pBooks.

Amazon now needs to eliminate ALL OF ITS POLICIES towards fixed pricing and allow the open market to take hold and reach its own equilibrium.  It is my personal belief that once the market is allowed to stand on its own merits WITHOUT price intervention that we may ACTUALLY SEE it reach an equilibrium point with a price structure lower that the current fixed one.  (And yes, I agree, Amazon certainly should be allowed to sell eBooks for $9.99 but ONLY if they pay the publishers based upon that sales price and not some higher one).

I do not believe it to be in the best interest of the market to continue to operate with an artificial pricing structure in place.  I believe that it has reached a point where Amazon’s price fixing policy may actually be a detriment to the further development of the market – it may actually, now, be holding prices artificially HIGH – to whit – the majority on here who “won’t pay $9.99 for an eBook” yet the publishers can continue to price eBooks at much higher levels BECAUSE they are guaranteed an ROI based upon THAT price rather than the actual artificial selling price, or in an open market the price the market would actually bear. 

Bottom line is simply this -- get all of the artificial price manipulation out of the picture and see where the market takes us.  The market is established enough to stand on its own merits and I’m betting that once the true market forces are allowed to come to be we’ll actually see a reduction in the overall pricing structure.

Of course, YMMV and I’m betting on the Saints!


----------



## Guest

dnagirl said:


> My question got lost in the merge of the three threads.
> 
> Is MacMillan going to be dictating Amazon's pricing on hardback and paperback books as well, or just ebooks?


Publishers have ALWAYS dictated what the retail price for their books are, because distributors pay a percentage of that to the publisher. Print and digital are two different animals. With print, Amazon buys the books upfront at a wholesale price, and then sells them for profit. With digital content, Amazon only pays the publisher when something sells.


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## luv4kitties

Maybe Amazon should open its own publishing house.  They could attract popular authors by giving them a higher percentage of the sales price while still keeping e-book prices low.


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## Guest

Zorrosuncle said:


> Seems very strange that a single publisher in a highly competitive market is willing to raise its price without fear that the remaining publishers will keep their prices low. Especially when Amazon as a major purchaser has 20 percent of the publisher market. Very very strange. I think Amazon should take this to court -- sure smells bad!


1. there is nothing for them to take anyone to court over. The publisher isn't doing anything illegal or in breach of contract.
2. Books are not interchangeable commodities. If someone wants the latest book by Jane Doe author, and she is ONLY published through publisher X, you can't go to a different publisher and get it. The majority of book marketing is NOT fixed to price at all. You only find the fixation on price among self-publishers, who don't have an existing marketing and distribution infrastructure to build on.


----------



## 911jason

geoffthomas said:


> So I am comparing McMillian's price of $14 to $35 (or discounted $2.


I bought my Kindle for two reasons, the cool-gadget factor, and cheaper books. I used to buy all my hardcovers from either Costco (less than $15) or from a used bookstore ($2-3). I would also buy paperbacks the same way - Costco for ~$5 and anywhere from 20 cents to 1/2 cover price from the used bookstore.

Unlike many of the members who have posted in this thread, despite my previously very thrifty book purchasing methods, I have at least 10-15 authors who I will regularly pay $9.99 for the Kindle edition of their books. The book I'm currently reading (The Honor of Spies by W.E.B. Griffin) is the first book I've paid more than $9.99 for and believe me, I wasn't happy about it. He's my favorite or 2nd favorite author (depending on my mood! ) and I waited over a month from release for the price to drop from it's $14 starting point. When it didn't, I finally bought it. But that will be extremely rare for me. I'd rather delve into some other author's catalog of older titles and get two or three books for the price of one of MacMillan's $15 gems. No thanks.


----------



## Guest

KindleUndecided said:


> Maybe Amazon should open its own publishing house. They could attract popular authors by giving them a higher percentage of the sales price while still keeping e-book prices low.


They already do. It's called Createspace and Kindle. They don't function as traditional publishing houses, but Amazon has already started dipping its toes into those waters.


----------



## 911jason

mcl said:


> yes, but Macmillan and the other publishers, who are doing this precisely because they fear the loss of print profits, can jack up the ebook prices, drastically reduce sales, and then point to the data and declare, "See? Ebooks aren't making any money!" and believe they've saved the print marketplace.
> 
> Who suffers in this scenario? The publishers? No. The authors? No. The retailers? No.
> 
> Only the consumers suffer.


That argument only works if we all just stop buying e-books. The sales data won't support their argument if we are buying more books than ever, just at the lower pricepoints for catalog titles, indies, and books released by sane publishers who embrace us.


----------



## Chad Winters

luvmy4brats said:


> This is all getting a bit confusing with at least 3 threads all discussing the exact same thing. I'm going to merge them all into this one.


but now the threads are all mixed together and make no sense!


----------



## JimC1946

Rebekah said:


> As it is, I've more than paid for my investment with the freebies that I've downloaded. Many of these have been great reads and I've gone on to buy other books by those authors. Of the books that I've actually purchased, most of those have been in the $3-5 range. I've discovered a wonderful new group of writers who I would have never read before Kindle.
> 
> I can wait for the price to drop.


My thoughts exactly! I have enough Indie stuff on my Kindle to last for a couple of years, not to mention all the free classics. Let the big publishers strangle as far as I care, they won't be getting another dime from me.

Actually, this may be a liberating experience for readers and a boon for Indies authors.


----------



## luv4kitties

bardsandsages said:


> They already do. It's called Createspace and Kindle. They don't function as traditional publishing houses, but Amazon has already started dipping its toes into those waters.


I did mean they should open a traditional publishing house. Then, they should actively recruit popular authors. They should stop toe dipping and take the plunge.


----------



## Guest

KindleUndecided said:


> I did mean they should open a traditional publishing house. Then, they should actively recruit popular authors. They should stop toe dipping and take the plunge.


I think the last thing any of us need is Amazon dumping millions of dollars on recruiting popular authors, which you do realize would come at the expense of all of the indies trying to use Amazon to sell their work? The majority of books are still sold in brick and mortar stores, after all. Amazon is great, but I would not want to see it stretch itself so thin with that sort of fiasco. The quickest way to destroy a good company is too jump into too many things at the expense of your core business.


----------



## mcl

911jason said:


> That argument only works if we all just stop buying e-books. The sales data won't support their argument if we are buying more books than ever, just at the lower pricepoints for catalog titles, indies, and books released by sane publishers who embrace us.


So, your position is that consumers don't suffer if the average price of ebooks is jacked up by 50%?

Interesting.


----------



## luv4kitties

bardsandsages said:


> I think the last thing any of us need is Amazon dumping millions of dollars on recruiting popular authors, which you do realize would come at the expense of all of the indies trying to use Amazon to sell their work? The majority of books are still sold in brick and mortar stores, after all. Amazon is great, but I would not want to see it stretch itself so thin with that sort of fiasco. The quickest way to destroy a good company is too jump into too many things at the expense of your core business.


Books are Amazon's core business. Most people want books from popular authors and most people don't want to pay inflated prices for them.

Indie authors could still use Amazon, just the same way they do now.


----------



## Geoffrey

mcl said:


> So, your position is that consumers don't suffer if the average price of ebooks is jacked up by 50%?
> 
> Interesting.


It depends on your meaning of suffer. Not every ebook from every publisher on every site will be jacked up. Only those major publishing houses that participate in the Macmillan deal will jack up their prices. If the consumers want books from those publishers, then their costs will be increased and they may feel anguish over it. If the consumers buy book from other publishers, then they won't.

You lectured me how wrong I was with this line of thought last night. But, you're still arguing with people that prices will increase while ignoring that many of us are quite happy with indie authors and smaller publishing companies.

I'll stand by what got me lectured earlier. If you want your specific authors in your specific formats, then you will have to pay the price set for that item. If you're more flexible about what you want to read - author, publisher, format - then you have more choice regarding price.


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## Shastastan

The "other publishers" will follow right along with MacMillan.  Not because they're playing follow the leader but because they would like higher profits.  Why wouldn't they?  If they all "push" their business toward Apple,  Apple will become the #1 ebook seller.  They are certainly being helped by the "newsies" already.  As an aside, I have never understood why the media likes to "beat up" on Kindle and Bezos.


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## JimC1946

Shastastan said:


> As an aside, I have never understood why the media likes to "beat up" on Kindle and Bezos.


Because he's a successful example of free enterprise at its finest.


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## Eric C

Most of the internet buzz seems to lean toward Amazon having egg on its face today, with MacMillan triumphant, but here is a link to an interesting contrarian view from James McQuivey, an analyst with Forrester Research (probably the premier research firm in the high tech industry):

http://paidcontent.org/article/419-in-amazon-vs.-macmillan-amazon-i...

Its main points are that:

(1) Amazon wins in the short run because they will now be making instead of losing money on every book from MacMillan (and any other publishers dumb enough to follow that publisher's lead)

(2) Inter-publisher rivalry will drive down ebook prices to perhaps as low as $9.99 again. (Strangely, he doesn't mention simple market forces as a driver of the lower prices. Lower prices is what happens to artificially elevated prices in the absence of monopoly power and collusion.)

(3) Publishers will make less money in the long run and have less to offer authors, with the result that more authors will bolt their publishers for Amazon in the way Steven Covey, Martin Amis, Ian McEwan and now Paul Coelho have, giving Amazon the win in the next round too...


----------



## Labrynth

I Haven't gone thru all 20 pages, especially now that several threads are merged... way too much to read and it's confusing, but this is what I plan to do.

Luckily my Kindle was a gift.  I'm not out 250$ for it.  If I were I'd probably be a lot more ticked.

In the past, when I have bought books, I have done one of a few things.  

1.  I will buy HC books of a very few number of authors.  This won't change.  As someone else noted, I do this because I have a collection of this author.

2.  I buy paperback books, but usually from some place like Wal Mart or Target or Costco.  Why?  Because I can get them cheaper than what I was even paying for them for Kindle.

3.  I hit up B&N, or BAM, on their clearance racks.  I've bought the majority of my books this way.  I can get a HC for no more than 7 bucks.

4.  I can get a whole lotta reading from a used bookstore for 50 bucks.  The last time I went, right before Christmas, I came home with more than 12 books for my 50 bucks.  I think it was 16 total.  Not a bad deal.

So, if they jack up the price what does this mean to me?

1.  I will still buy HC of certain authors.  But whereas I might have also bought the eBook version as well, I won't even consider it.  I can get a HC at Costco for 15 bucks.  How is putting it on my Kindle saving me money now?

2.  I'll continue to just wait for authors I read but don't buy in HC and will still continue to buy them places where they are heavily discounted.

3.  Clearance books are still there!

4.  Guess I'll be making more trips to the used store!

Since the whole distributing an eBook costs a heck of a lot less than a regular book there is no way in God's Green Earth that I will pay more for an eBook than a regular book.  Yes, the Kindle is handy, but as so many others have pointed out, there are a lot of freebie reads and such that are out there.  Do I love my Kindle?  Yes, I think it's awesome.  But I DO have a limit on what I'm willing to spend seeing as how previously I've always gotten good deals on the books I buy.  If it comes down to it I'll sell the Kindle and say screw it and just go back to the way I did things before.


----------



## 911jason

mcl said:


> So, your position is that consumers don't suffer if the average price of ebooks is jacked up by 50%?
> 
> Interesting.


I'm not at all sure how you got that from my post that you quoted... but I'm not even going to bother trying to re-explain my position to you.


----------



## VictoriaP

Geoffrey said:


> It depends on your meaning of suffer. Not every ebook from every publisher on every site will be jacked up. Only those major publishing houses that participate in the Macmillan deal will jack up their prices. If the consumers want books from those publishers, then their costs will be increased and they may feel anguish over it. If the consumers buy book from other publishers, then they won't.
> 
> You lectured me how wrong I was with this line of thought last night. But, you're still arguing with people that prices will increase while ignoring that many of us are quite happy with indie authors and smaller publishing companies.
> 
> I'll stand by what got me lectured earlier. If you want your specific authors in your specific formats, then you will have to pay the price set for that item. If you're more flexible about what you want to read - author, publisher, format - then you have more choice regarding price.


I do tend to think that ALL of the big six will follow suit since Amazon caved so easily; I've already heard from one author with another publisher who made it clear that will be the new norm. Which means that anything currently mass market is likely to go up, in some cases significantly.

Where this may be a problem--

The reason all those small publishers and indie authors you love can produce ebook files is because they potentially can make money selling LOTS of them. If every major publishing house follows MacMillan's lead, it's likely fewer ebook readers will be sold, because you're no longer saving money versus buying DTBs, and this is one of those incentive "features" that appeals to the mass market. We're **just** on very edge where ebook readers are about to move from a "luxury" item to a common one, and unfortunately, I think there's at least a reasonable chance that the ebook market will be set back years when higher per book prices become the norm.

Fewer ebook readers sold + higher prices for books from the big six = fewer books sold overall.

Since most consumers are attracted to the mass market books and those are the ones about to jump pricewise, they may opt to put off buying an ereader at all. I've already heard this train of thought from a friend who was literally about to buy a Kindle on Sunday morning. By Sunday evening, she had put her purchasing decision on hold. Without additional consumers joining the reading pool and thus discovering those small publishers and indie authors, they'll eventually find that it's not particularly worthwhile to continue producing and selling ebooks.

Realistically, the market will eventually settle on a price point. But if that price point is over $10, most people won't be joining us in the e-book revolution. Even plenty of us who adore our Kindles have been saying they'd buy the hardcover instead.

Understand, I'm not at all saying "oh woe, this is the death of the e-reader!" My Kindle isn't going anywhere, and I'll still be purchasing books when the paperback equivalent price is available. I think it's a bit of a shame though, because we really were on the brink of becoming a common household item, and had the publishers waited another year or so, they would have had a much larger captive audience who likely would have been more tolerant of a gradual price increase. Instead, they'll chase off those who are on the fence about purchasing now vs. later.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

VictoriaP said:


> Understand, I'm not at all saying "oh woe, this is the death of the e-reader!" My Kindle isn't going anywhere, and I'll still be purchasing books when the paperback equivalent price is available. I think it's a bit of a shame though, because we really were on the brink of becoming a common household item, and had the publishers waited another year or so, they would have had a much larger captive audience who likely would have been more tolerant of a gradual price increase. Instead, they'll chase off those who are on the fence about purchasing now vs. later.


And that will suit the large publishers fine, since they seem to be terrified of change. If they can delay ebooks becoming a major factor, or better yet squelch it down to a niche market, that's a good thing. This probably also suits at least one of the major book vendors....These changes buy B&N time, since they have this huge investment in brick and mortar that they'll get to use at full capacity for a few more years. I suspect they may be wishing they hadn't sunk all that money into developing the Nook, though!

I agree with you that if this had just stretched out a little bit longer, it would have been better for the ebook as a format. Hopefully it will still get here, but it will take longer. And I suspect the major publishers will be in a weaker position in the long run because of this weekend's events (but it is quite possible I'm wrong on that!).


----------



## VictoriaP

The Hooded Claw said:


> And that will suit the large publishers fine, since they seem to be terrified of change. If they can delay ebooks becoming a major factor, or better yet squelch it down to a niche market, that's a good thing. This probably also suits at least one of the major book vendors....These changes buy B&N time, since they have this huge investment in brick and mortar that they'll get to use at full capacity for a few more years. I suspect they may be wishing they hadn't sunk all that money into developing the Nook, though!
> 
> I agree with you that if this had just stretched out a little bit longer, it would have been better for the ebook as a format. Hopefully it will still get here, but it will take longer. And I suspect the major publishers will be in a weaker position in the long run because of this weekend's events (but it is quite possible I'm wrong on that!).


Yes, I'd love to see an analyst's viewpoint of how this affects Barnes and Noble. I imagine you're right about them wishing they hadn't bothered with the Nook! 

And I agree that the publishers will eventually be in a weaker position. The Lynn Abbey blog listed in another thread (http://lynnabbey.com/blog/) had a pretty interesting viewpoint on how publishers seem to see the world. It's sad--they clearly don't understand e-book consumers and the dramatic increase in the numbers of books purchased that most of us seem to go through when Kindle first comes into our lives.


----------



## davem2bits

VictoriaP said:


> .... It's sad--they clearly don't understand e-book consumers and the dramatic increase in the numbers of books purchased that most of us seem to go through when Kindle first comes into our lives.


The problem is most of those purchases are from indie or self published sources. Which do the big guys no good. Better to get the most they can from folks still buying what they have to sell, hence the price increase.


----------



## Geoffrey

Victoria:  

I get what you're saying, I just don't think it will work out the way you're predicting.  I think all the big publishing companies want to jump onboard with Macmillan but will probably wait to see what happens in the next month or two.  If, in that time, Macmillan's overall sales drop, they may not jump onboard so quickly.

I do agree with everyone who's commented on how these companies are holding onto an archaic financial model for all they're worth.  But, I think ultimately they will fail.

Finally, regarding the 'higher' cost of ebooks, of course they're going to go as high-priced as they can for their opening volley.  From Macmillan's press release it sounds like they are assuming it will have to be lowered.  They're looking for the sweetspot between what they want and what we think we're willing to pay.  Unfortunately for us, the collective ereader community drew our line in the sand at $10 as the price we want ... so, with any price bartering, it will end up higher than that  (Now, I'm talking new releases here, not older, established titles).


----------



## Susan B

Granvillen said:


> Although I feel they way most of you feel, the fact is a boycott will only last a short while. All the chest pounding is for naught. Soon a book you just must read will come along and you will buy the book. That is how it goes. You pay the $13 and sooner or later you will buy another "must have" book at the higher price. No one, including myself, is going to use the Kindle as a $260 paperweight. No one is not going to buy a $13 book. We all will. That is what McMillan and Amazon are betting on. In fact, this whole action could have been pre-planned with Amazon attempting to come out of it as the good guy, "look I am on the EBookers side". Amazon will let the buyers decide, right after they sell you the Seattle Space Needle. Fess up people, 98% of all boycotts fail, and fail completely. By summer, the price of an ebook will be between $12 and $14, and sales will be continuing to increase.


There are no books that I "must have" and I know I'm not the only Kindler that feels that way. I have a list of Macmillan and all their imprints and will be avoiding those books in the future. I'll vote with my wallet as that seems to be the most effecive way of getting our point across.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Susan B said:


> There are no books that I "must have" and I know I'm not the only Kindler that feels that way. I have a list of Macmillan and all their imprints and will be avoiding those books in the future. I'll vote with my wallet as that seems to be the most effecive way of getting our point across.


I'm also going to vote with my wallet, but the thinking about my habits that this episode has spawned has frustrated me--I don't even have the miniscule clout you'd expect to have as one of eight million (or whatever the number is) heavy readers in the USA....Except for a very occasional non-fiction book, I haven't bought a new hardback in years. Before I Kindled, I bought a lot of books, but almost all the hardbacks were used or remaindered. So I can't really change my habits in a way that will give even the minute economic impact I'd expect to have based on being one consumer!   

But as others have said, I can at least skip the MacMillan ebooks when they get back on Amazon.


----------



## VictoriaP

davem2bits said:


> The problem is most of those purchases are from indie or self published sources. Which do the big guys no good. Better to get the most they can from folks still buying what they have to sell, hence the price increase.


I think it's more accurate for most people to say that **some** of those purchases are indie or self published, keeping in mind that the average Kindle user probably isn't on these forums, or even Amazon's. Even here there's a significant number of us who go just as crazy with the stuff from the big boys--for example, the free or heavily discounted "first of the series" promos suck in quite a few of us who then buy the whole series. And then everything else the author ever wrote. LOL Plus you've got all the recommendations we get--both through Amazon's recs and from places like this--plain and simple, most of the stuff I've bought has come from the major publishers. And I know a number of other readers with Kindles/Sonys/Nooks who've done the same.



Geoffrey said:


> Victoria:
> 
> I get what you're saying, I just don't think it will work out the way you're predicting. I think all the big publishing companies want to jump onboard with Macmillan but will probably wait to see what happens in the next month or two. If, in that time, Macmillan's overall sales drop, they may not jump onboard so quickly.


I'm devoutly hoping you're right that the others may delay implementing price increases. Unfortunately, I don't give them as much credit for business intelligence as you do, either in holding off for a bit or in just how much they think they can get away with. I absolutely agree it will eventually fail, and I'm honestly OK with new release pricing being higher than the arbitrary $10, so long as they stay even a little below whatever discounting goes on for the hardcovers. It's the established titles that worry me, those already in paperback--some of the current "list" prices, which are set by the publishers already, are utterly ridiculous at two and even three times paperback price. I just can't even imagine how they justify that rationale to themselves--there are cases where they're making more money on an ebook than the paperback sells for at retail! Given that kind of logic, even if they compromise, there's a decent chance it's still going to be at a level higher than anyone will realistically want to pay.

Granted, no one will buy them then. But then that feeds back into the "no one wants ebooks" argument that the publishers so desperately seem to want to believe.

The whole thing is interesting, no doubt. I bet it will be quite the discussion topic in Econ classes for some time to come.


----------



## raven312

Tip10 said:


> Here's basically how I see the picture.
> 
> Since the inception of the Kindle Amazon has artificially manipulated the eBook market by arbitrarily fixing certain prices, all the while insulating the publishers from the normal pricing feedback forces that should have been existing in a free and open market.
> 
> Since they have been insulated from the pricing feedback prevalent in an open market certain publishers have developed pricing strategies based upon false assumptions -- i.e. sales figures generated by the fixed price market, and a ROI not reflective of selling price.
> 
> Once the artificial price structure is removed we will probably see some drastic swings in the pricing model of the market until such time as the normal price feedback mechanisms take effect and the publishers start to gain useful data on supply, demand and price structures.
> 
> Amazon, in my opinion, did what they needed to do in order to establish and keep a fledgling market afloat until such time as it took foothold and would be able to support itself. I believe they were successful in doing so. I also believe that fledgling market has come of age -- as evidence I'd point to the fact that Amazon has already seen daily totals where eBooks outsold pBooks.
> 
> Amazon now needs to eliminate ALL OF ITS POLICIES towards fixed pricing and allow the open market to take hold and reach its own equilibrium. It is my personal belief that once the market is allowed to stand on its own merits WITHOUT price intervention that we may ACTUALLY SEE it reach an equilibrium point with a price structure lower that the current fixed one. (And yes, I agree, Amazon certainly should be allowed to sell eBooks for $9.99 but ONLY if they pay the publishers based upon that sales price and not some higher one).
> 
> I do not believe it to be in the best interest of the market to continue to operate with an artificial pricing structure in place. I believe that it has reached a point where Amazon's price fixing policy may actually be a detriment to the further development of the market - it may actually, now, be holding prices artificially HIGH - to whit - the majority on here who "won't pay $9.99 for an eBook" yet the publishers can continue to price eBooks at much higher levels BECAUSE they are guaranteed an ROI based upon THAT price rather than the actual artificial selling price, or in an open market the price the market would actually bear.
> 
> Bottom line is simply this -- get all of the artificial price manipulation out of the picture and see where the market takes us. The market is established enough to stand on its own merits and I'm betting that once the true market forces are allowed to come to be we'll actually see a reduction in the overall pricing structure.
> 
> Of course, YMMV and I'm betting on the Saints!


I LIKE this. Good insight.


----------



## Wunderkind

Tip10 said:


> Once the artificial price structure is removed we will probably see some drastic swings in the pricing model of the market until such time as the normal price feedback mechanisms take effect and the publishers start to gain useful data on supply, demand and price structures.
> 
> Amazon, in my opinion, did what they needed to do in order to establish and keep a fledgling market afloat until such time as it took foothold and would be able to support itself. I believe they were successful in doing so. I also believe that fledgling market has come of age -- as evidence I'd point to the fact that Amazon has already seen daily totals where eBooks outsold pBooks.
> 
> Amazon now needs to eliminate ALL OF ITS POLICIES towards fixed pricing and allow the open market to take hold and reach its own equilibrium. It is my personal belief that once the market is allowed to stand on its own merits WITHOUT price intervention that we may ACTUALLY SEE it reach an equilibrium point with a price structure lower that the current fixed one. (And yes, I agree, Amazon certainly should be allowed to sell eBooks for $9.99 but ONLY if they pay the publishers based upon that sales price and not some higher one).
> 
> I do not believe it to be in the best interest of the market to continue to operate with an artificial pricing structure in place. I believe that it has reached a point where Amazon's price fixing policy may actually be a detriment to the further development of the market - it may actually, now, be holding prices artificially HIGH - to whit - the majority on here who "won't pay $9.99 for an eBook" yet the publishers can continue to price eBooks at much higher levels BECAUSE they are guaranteed an ROI based upon THAT price rather than the actual artificial selling price, or in an open market the price the market would actually bear.
> 
> Bottom line is simply this -- get all of the artificial price manipulation out of the picture and see where the market takes us. The market is established enough to stand on its own merits and I'm betting that once the true market forces are allowed to come to be we'll actually see a reduction in the overall pricing structure.
> 
> Of course, YMMV and I'm betting on the Saints!


There is a way to get an idea of what would happen to e-book sales and pricing without Amazon's involvement -- it's a matter of looking at the e-book market before Amazon introduced the Kindle. E-books have languished as a market for a long time; I remember reading e-books on my Palm PDA many years ago. Amazon was able to grow this market because they recognized the need to price e-books at a level that would result in purchases and a meaningful e-book market. I believe they looked at what had happened in this market before they entered it, and they came up with a plan that they believed would resonate with potential e-book readers.

Just as with readers of physical books, e-readers are not monolithic. We are not all willing to pay hardback prices for books; some of us are willing to pay higher prices than $9.99, some will wait until prices are reduced to the equivalent of paperbacks, and others will go to the library or secondary market options to get books. It seems that some publishers view those that read e-books as all hardback buyers in waiting and that e-readers have cannibalized hardback sales. I know for me that is not the case at all.

I worry that this move will just result in the e-book market going back to where it was pre-Kindle -- basically a niche market that didn't get as much attention as it should have.


----------



## earthlydelites

sem said:


> It is time to backup book purchases to somewhere other than Amazon. I have all of mine on an external hard drive.


me too. I download all books I purchase and save them on my hard drive.

This is interesting. I don't think the amazon community cares about price wars, we just want to be able to access books.... and if publishers/amazon are going to pull books on a whim, why would we continue to use the service? Plenty of other places to download e-books from....

(I'm not jumping ship to apple by the way lol)


----------



## Shapeshifter

Welcome to Australian pricing folks, not a fair thing but the stores over here that sell ebooks their pricing is always over the $20 mark and that is for older books, the new books tend to be up around the $30+ mark, looking at one particular seller that is a major player in retail who also now sell ebooks, they have only 33 books under $20 in the general fiction section and most of them you can get for free elsewhere, their price, around $10.

I think when it comes to paying the extra $2 for the international charge most of us aren't complaining as there is no way we're going to pay the prices the Australian companies want, but in saying that personally for me I won't buy anything over $10 from Amazon as it's just not worth it when I consider what it is I'm buying doesn't have many overheads related to it and the publishers still make majority of their money from HB and PB sales.


----------



## chilady1

earthlydelites said:


> me too. I download all books I purchase and save them on my hard drive.


Me 3 - have done so from the beginning.


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## Tip10

Shastastan said:


> The "other publishers" will follow right along with MacMillan. Not because they're playing follow the leader but because they would like higher profits. Why wouldn't they? If they all "push" their business toward Apple, Apple will become the #1 ebook seller. They are certainly being helped by the "newsies" already. As an aside, I have never understood why the media likes to "beat up" on Kindle and Bezos.


I'm not at all convinced the other publishers will jump on board immediately, or possibly at all.

It is not a forgone conclusion at all that their profits will go up. I'm of a belief, especially with what we've seen in the eBook market re: the $9.99 price point that MacMillan's profits in this market will actually take a hit. I fully believe that MacM will see a drastic reduction in sales to the point that their pricing structure will have to be modified to even maintain the SAME profits. Remember, in the past the books were selling for $9.99 yet MacM was pulling in the profits based upon a 50/50 deal set on the much higher list price.

Look at the math:

Let's just say that the books were set at the $15.00 price mark by MacM. And let's assume a fixed production cost of $5.00. 
MacM got a 50/50 split of the $10.00 profits on each and every sale or $5.00 a sale, REMEMBER they got the split based on LIST not sales price!!

Now look at the new structure -- If I understand it correctly MacM gets a 70/30 split based on the *actual* sales price. Same $15.00 price point, same $5.00 production cost. MacM's take is 70/30 of that same $10.00 or $7.00 every sale. Looks good right?
Problem is, in order to maintain profit levels they have to maintain their sales numbers at about 71-72% of where they are right now!! And that, my friends, is something that's going to be mighty mighty difficult to do in the face of a 50% price increase!!
Personally I don't think they can do it -- I seriously doubt there is much of ANY commodity that you can raise the price on by 50% AND maintain those kinds of sales numbers -- especially not one that has already met severe resistance to pricing above the current $9.99 level.

Time will tell....


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Tip10 said:


> It is not a forgone conclusion at all that their profits will go up. I'm of a belief, especially with what we've seen in the eBook market re: the $9.99 price point that MacMillan's profits in this market will actually take a hit.


Don't forget that by all accounts, the goal of publishers here is _NOT_ to make profits on ebooks, but to protect their hardback profit center. They see ebooks as undercutting their hardback books (both in price, and in not counting towards the New York Times best seller list), and being an avenue for piracy.


----------



## Leslie

Tip10 said:


> I'm not at all convinced the other publishers will jump on board immediately, or possibly at all.
> 
> It is not a forgone conclusion at all that their profits will go up. I'm of a belief, especially with what we've seen in the eBook market re: the $9.99 price point that MacMillan's profits in this market will actually take a hit. I fully believe that MacM will see a drastic reduction in sales to the point that their pricing structure will have to be modified to even maintain the SAME profits. Remember, in the past the books were selling for $9.99 yet MacM was pulling in the profits based upon a 50/50 deal set on the much higher list price.
> 
> Look at the math:
> 
> Let's just say that the books were set at the $15.00 price mark by MacM. And let's assume a fixed production cost of $5.00.
> MacM got a 50/50 split of the $10.00 profits on each and every sale or $5.00 a sale, REMEMBER they got the split based on LIST not sales price!!
> 
> Now look at the new structure -- If I understand it correctly MacM gets a 70/30 split based on the *actual* sales price. Same $15.00 price point, same $5.00 production cost. MacM's take is 70/30 of that same $10.00 or $7.00 every sale. Looks good right?
> Problem is, in order to maintain profit levels they have to maintain their sales numbers at about 71-72% of where they are right now!! And that, my friends, is something that's going to be mighty mighty difficult to do in the face of a 50% price increase!!
> Personally I don't think they can do it -- I seriously doubt there is much of ANY commodity that you can raise the price on by 50% AND maintain those kinds of sales numbers -- especially not one that has already met severe resistance to pricing above the current $9.99 level.
> 
> Time will tell....


Thank you, Tip. I really appreciate it when someone pulls out the calculator and does the math.

The other difference in the "old" vs. "new" models is that previously, Macmillan got paid when Amazon bought the books; now they'll get paid when the consumer buys the book. So, previously, Amazon was paying $15/book and might buy, let's say, 5000 books. Macmillan had $75,000 in hand. Under the new model, they sell the book for $15, make $10.50 per book, have $5 in expenses per book so actual profit is $5.50 (compared to $15). Then if the book seriously underperforms and sells just 1000 copies, they make $10,500 less expenses of $5000. So actual cash-in-hand on a book-to-book basis is actually quite less.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is sort of the difference between accrual accounting and cash flow? The "old" model was more of an accrual model (which everyone is always telling me is preferable). The agency model seems to be based on cash flow which really, does that work in this situation? I am sure there are more accounting knowledgeable people here who can set me straight.

L


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## Shastastan

@VictoriaP

I agree with most of what you said except for the following:

"Without additional consumers joining the reading pool and thus discovering those small publishers and indie authors, they'll eventually find that it's not particularly worthwhile to continue producing and selling ebooks. "

I think that it would much more difficult for the small publishers and indie authors to sell dtbs than ebooks due to the cost and marketing expenses.  The major bookstore outlets don't do much for the smaller players so ebooks might be better than nothing..  Just my 4 cents FWIW.


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## VictoriaP

Shastastan said:


> @VictoriaP
> 
> I agree with most of what you said except for the following:
> 
> "Without additional consumers joining the reading pool and thus discovering those small publishers and indie authors, they'll eventually find that it's not particularly worthwhile to continue producing and selling ebooks. "
> 
> I think that it would much more difficult for the small publishers and indie authors to sell dtbs than ebooks due to the cost and marketing expenses. The major bookstore outlets don't do much for the smaller players so ebooks might be better than nothing.. Just my 4 cents FWIW.


Agreed that it's much more difficult to produce & sell DTBs on a small scale--my concern is that they'll eventually stop producing books altogether. Not much point in putting effort into something over time for little to no return, and the IRS tends to like to see intent to show a profit as a business.


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## Shastastan

@Leslie

As a CPA, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the "cash" v. "accrual" method of accounting.  Publishers are faced with the doctrine of sunk costs and inventory carrying costs.  There is a time value to money so getting large amounts of cash up front allows for payment of current expenses rather than possibly having to resort to short term loans.  If the publishers only get paid as their books sell at the retail level, then they would have to wait to receive those sale dollars as each book is sold.  The doctrine of sunk (variable) costs is even more evident if they produce a lot more books than they sell.  Fixed sunk costs, such as depreciation, will be there if they sell 1 book or 5 million books.


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## Leslie

Shastastan said:


> @Leslie
> 
> As a CPA, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the "cash" v. "accrual" method of accounting. Publishers are faced with the doctrine of sunk costs and inventory carrying costs. There is a time value to money so getting large amounts of cash up front allows for payment of current expenses rather than possibly having to resort to short term loans. If the publishers only get paid as their books sell at the retail level, then they would have to wait to receive those sale dollars as each book is sold. The doctrine of sunk (variable) costs is even more evident if they produce a lot more books than they sell. Fixed sunk costs, such as depreciation, will be there if they sell 1 book or 5 million books.


I hated accounting. LOL. That said, you use the term sunk costs as both fixed and variable. I thought sunk costs were the fixed costs? The money you had to spend to produce the product overall? Variable costs are the per unit costs which depends how well the product (in this case, book) sells.

And where in this scenario does the publisher get to "write off" expenses if the book is flop? Does it work the same way with the traditional model of selling vs. the newer agency model?

Just wondering here...

L


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## Tip10

The Hooded Claw said:


> Don't forget that by all accounts, the goal of publishers here is _NOT_ to make profits on ebooks, but to protect their hardback profit center. They see ebooks as undercutting their hardback books (both in price, and in not counting towards the New York Times best seller list), and being an avenue for piracy.


I've seen that too -- not sure I can buy into it either.

It presupposes an Either/Or argument that doesn't fit the paradigm either.

I think instead what we are seeing is the beginnings of the shakeout of a growing industry. For years eBooks (to use a purely sexist example) struggled along and the little tom boy kid sister following along in the shadow of the pretty big sister. 
As exhibited by the sales figures Amazon saw over the holidays where they actually saw eBooks outselling pBooks a lot of folks all of the sudden had their eyes opened to the fact that the little tom boy girl had blossomed into one gorgeous creature and as of yet nobody has figured out quite how to take her. 
I think we're in for quite a ride in the next year or so as the industry comes of age and everybody figures out how and where all the pieces fit. 
eBooks are simply no longer the kid sister following big sister around -- they are now of age and maturity to be treated as an equal and big sister is going to have to come to terms with that.

How that all happens is yet to be seen. Personally, I believe that the publishers , after some starts and stops and trips are gonna figure out that eBooks should be treated as an adjunct to all of their other offerings -- Hard backs, paperbacks, audio's and will treat them as a part of the lineup and not a threat to it.


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## Shastastan

Leslie said:


> I hated accounting. LOL. That said, you use the term sunk costs as both fixed and variable. I thought sunk costs were the fixed costs? The money you had to spend to produce the product overall? Variable costs are the per unit costs which depends how well the product (in this case, book) sells.
> 
> And where in this scenario does the publisher get to "write off" expenses if the book is flop? Does it work the same way with the traditional model of selling vs. the newer agency model?
> 
> Just wondering here...
> 
> L


They get to write off all of their costs allowed by the tax laws even if they don't sell many books. Historically they have demonstrated that they are in business to make a profit so the "hobby loss" provisions do not apply to them as they might to an author working from their home. There are ways to overcome the hobby loss presumption but that's not for this forum.

Sunk costs can be both fixed and variable. Fixed are costs that are there or will be incurred without regard to production. Examples are insurance, depreciation, utilities, security, admin salaries, rent, etc.. Variable costs vary with production such as ink, paper, shipping, etc.. There are also "mixed" costs which have both fixed and variable components such as janitorial costs. You are right that product costs are variable costs. I doubt that the publishing industry uses a just-in-time inventory approach since they have to have a somewhat subjective estimate as to how many books will sell from various production runs. If they decide to produce 500,000 books, those costs are "sunk". At least that's they way I view them, since they have been incurred whether or not any books sell. The textbook definition might only see fixed costs as sunk cost though. Sorry, I can't remember that far back.


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## Leslie

Shastastan said:


> There are also "mixed" costs which have both fixed and variable components such as janitorial costs.


Okay, I am scratching my head over this one. How can janitorial costs be mixed? If the book is a bestseller or a flop, someone still has to empty the trash and wax the floors. I would think this is a fixed cost along with utilities, rent, etc.

Please enlighten me...LOL

L


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## LindaW

OK - not sure if this was already brought up - some of these posts are just too long to read before bed (my eyes are getting too tired in my old age), but I know that I won't be buying any e-books over $10.  I just don't need them that bad.  Now, here is my thought...I know that some folks have complained a bit about the free or really cheap books messing up the rankings on Amazon because, frankly, free sells more than not free.  So, does anyone think this might become an issue for a publisher or author that finds their new book buried at the bottom of the pile?  

For me personally, if I was a publisher I would try to sell the book as inexpensive as possible to get it to the top of the pile, where it will get more attention, which should equal more sales. 

Maybe I'm simplifying it too much - but those sales numbers and rankings for the free/cheap books are kicking butt.  Also, in my case, I've bought other books from authors that I got a freebie for first.


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## Rasputina

All I want to know at this point is now that Amazon has capitulated when are they going to put the books back up for sale. Checked again and still gone.


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## Richard in W.Orange

An interesting question is about the whole copies of books things. There is no "standing" or "depreciable" (sp?) inventory with ebooks. There is a file on a server and if you license it, you get a copy. Amazon has to then report the 'number of downloads' (purchases) of that title to the publisher. Now, there are COSTS to holding that file and having it available and delivering it, but in the case of Amazon they are the ones with ALL the overhead. 

We can safely presume that Amazon is cutting a HUGE monthly check to Sprint based on Kindles sold in the market 
We can also presume that Amazon writes a LARGE monthly check to AT&T for the Kindle I's that work overseas
There is server and file storage space which although modest in one time cost, does have maintenance and connectivity
Some percentage of their overall IT cost structure is line-item accounted against e-book delivery 

Once the publisher (or is Amazon doing the formatting also) delivers the formatted ebook, then Amazon gets all the costs of selling the book. IF they've been loosing money (and I doubt anyone really has been "loosing" money (although breaking even may be enough with fledgling technology)) they haven't been loosing much and so what "reasonable" justification exists for a publisher 'jacking up' the cost of the ebook to Amazon (or anyone else doing e-delivery)?

If AMAZON was telling us the costs are out of control, I might 'believe' that some change in price was required, and I'd likely be very willing to accept it because I can understand that things you don't see cost money, BUT the publisher? What "extra costs" do they have? In fact, shouldn't their overall costs have gone DOWN? The change to the 'publisher' is that they add "ebook" to the ways the product is available. They are so used to setting the MSRP of the book that they now want to define the end cost. 

Something just smells here. Really. (And I just put another $100 of gift card on the kindle account, so I'm obviously going to continue to buy e books, perhaps that its $100 is a statement to what I expect to be paying?)


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## Gertie Kindle

Richard in W.Orange said:


> Something just smells here. Really. (And I just put another $100 of gift card on the kindle account, so I'm obviously going to continue to buy e books, perhaps that its $100 is a statement to what I expect to be paying?)


Very definitely smelly, and in all our responses, someone(s) has hit the truth of it. We just don't know which truth it is.

I think Amazon's profit comes with the sales of the Kindle. Remember the original price was $399 and it's now down to $259. The cost of the K to Amazon must have either gone down markedly or they made one heck of a profit on the original.

Amazon's warehouse and shipping costs for books must have also been huge. Those of us who have Prime shipping pay a very small amount for two day shipping for the amount of items we purchase which include more than books, although I'm sure they have deals with UPS and Fedex. So, as they shift us over to e-books, warehousing will become less of a factor. The "shipping" costs of a dtb translate to whispernet costs.

That $100 GC you just purchased? Amazon gets that money immediately rather than waiting for you to order something. That translates to holding your money in an interest bearing account. Profit for Amazon. As for how much you expect to be paying, you may spread that money out over a longer period of time, or more e-books at a lower cost.


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## Wisteria Clematis

An article today on Salon.com:

http://www.salon.com/technology/apple/index.html?story=/books/laura_miller/2010/02/01/macmillan_vs_amazon


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## Flechette

<cough>

Actually I appreciate the... hmmm... passion the author ebook resistance brings to the discussion--- then again *Independence Day* is a favorite movie in this household 
Also while Kindle users are undoubtably the largest portion of the ebook pie, it never hurts to have all the minorities join together to add their weight to a topic.

Well, I personally will be doing a few things:

1) Checking who the publisher is, and not supporting MacMillan Publishing in anyway: ebook or physical
2) Writing MacMillan and the author to let them know why I passed buying their product each time
3) Writing the publishers and authors I do buy, letting them know I bought them over MacMillan, and why **** _That's the important part!_

For example, hubby and I are interested in Terry GoodKind's -- Wizard's First Rule. Never heard of it before the TV show, which was exceedingly cheesy but had good bones. I heard enough from the book fans to know the TV show strayed far from the books so we've held off on reading til we've lost interest in the TV show (about 4 episodes into season 2 lol)

ebook price $7.19 hmmm who published this? TOR well we'll looking into the library or book resales but we're not paying that price or that company instead I think we'll be buying Brent Weeks Night Angel trilogy for $9.99 from Orbit. Once we do I'll be emailing MacMillan, Terry Goodkind, Orbit, and Brent weeks (as possible) and lettign them know where m y money is going and why~

We can't make anyone do anything but we can show our disapproval politely- I think there are 2 proverbs at work here:

The squeaky wheel gets the oil

You catch more flies w/ honey than vinegar



If I buy the physical book instead of the ebook, that sends the wrong message about the viability of ebooks (I think) so this seems like the best way to voice our position


----------



## Guest

LindaW said:


> For me personally, if I was a publisher I would try to sell the book as inexpensive as possible to get it to the top of the pile, where it will get more attention, which should equal more sales.


Then you don't understand what actually makes a bestseller.

Publishers spends tens of thousands of dollars on marketing six to nine months in advance of a book. The typical consumer, however, never sees it, because that marketing is done directly to libraries and bookstores. Ever wonder how a book can end up at the top of the NY Times Bestseller list three weeks before it is even released? Because those lists are all based off of sales to stores, not consumers.

I'm a publisher. When I first started developing my marketing plans, I queried about ad prices to get an idea of what it might take to actually get books in stores. I can tell you a single ad in Publisher's Weekly, a small one, can cost $500 to $1000. Book Pages? $50-$450. Any number of industry publications that target bookstores? $250-$1,000 a pop per ad. Big publishrs have sales reps that are visiting Waldenbooks and Barnes and Noble to negotiate shelf space (many bookstore chains now charge a premium if you want your book on a shelf near the front of the store).

Remember, despite our personal dedication to ebooks, the majority of books are still sold through brick and mortar stores. The majority of people still shop in actual stores, not online. Amazon might be 20% of the overall book business, but you still have another 80% out there. So if you want a bestseller, you need to be in stores, which means spending money getting book reviews and getting your book dedicated shelf space in various chains.

With a good distribution system, a single $2,000 ad in Publishers Weekly could equate to 50,000 orders from stores. Listing a book for for free on Amazon for a promotion might result in 2,000 sales.

Now for a self-publisher, maybe you just want the thrill of seeing your title on the top of Amazon's list. But for a publisher trying to make a profit, your concept is impractical and actually counter-productive.


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## skyblue

Why can't Amazon comply with publishers pricing demands, then offer a rebate of sorts to the purchaser?


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## ElaineOK

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> [part of post deleted
> I think Amazon's profit comes with the sales of the Kindle. Remember the original price was $399 and it's now down to $259. The cost of the K to Amazon must have either gone down markedly or they made one heck of a profit on the original.
> 
> [part of post deleted]


Substantial reductions in the price of technical products can frequently be accounted for by the paying off of research and development costs.

Elaine
Norman, OK


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## jason10mm

Flechette said:


> <cough>For example, hubby and I are interested in Terry GoodKind's -- Wizard's First Rule. Never heard of it before the TV show, which was exceedingly cheesy but had good bones. I heard enough from the book fans to know the TV show strayed far from the books so we've held off on reading til we've lost interest in the TV show (about 4 episodes into season 2 lol)


No offense to Goodkind fans, but if this temp ban has done NOTHING other than prevent you from reading "Wizards First Rule", count yourself LUCKY! Ugh, what a terrible book. You did much better with Brent Weeks. Personally the only loss I'm suffering so far is not getting my Steven Erikson fix, but his newest one is only available in England on the Kindle, so still no real loss to me.


----------



## LindaW

bardsandsages said:


> Then you don't understand what actually makes a bestseller.


Frankly, what makes a bestseller is a good book! No matter how much money is spent, a bad book won't sell, and with little to no money invested a good book can. I'm not a publisher (thank goodness, cause it just seems so complicated) - but as someone who cares more about the story than the politics - I will only spend money on what I like.

I do think that ranking eventually does matter. A five star book will catch my eye, whereas a 1 star will not. I have found that even super fans of an author will stop reading a series of books if the books start to lose their luster.


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## luvmy4brats

LindaW said:


> Frankly, what makes a bestseller is a good book! No matter how much money is spent, a bad book won't sell, and with little to no money invested a good book can.


Sadly, this isn't true. The Lost Symbol, by Dan Brown was a horrible book. It quickly reached the Bestseller list before released because if advertising and the author's name.


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## Gertie Kindle

Flechette said:


> 3) Writing the publishers and authors I do buy, letting them know I bought them over MacMillan, and why **** _That's the important part!_


That's a good idea. More proactive than just boycotting MacMillan.



> ebook price $7.19 hmmm who published this? TOR well we'll looking into the library or book resales but we're not paying that price or that company instead I think we'll be buying Brent Weeks Night Angel trilogy for $9.99 from Orbit. Once we do I'll be emailing MacMillan, Terry Goodkind, Orbit, and Brent weeks (as possible) and lettign them know where m y money is going and why~


$7.99 Now. But wait until March when the price increases go into effect.



skyblue said:


> Why can't Amazon comply with publishers pricing demands, then offer a rebate of sorts to the purchaser?


That's exactly what MacMillan is trying to prevent. They want to set the prices and pay Amazon a royalty on that price instead of Amazon discounting the book and paying the publisher a royalty on the list price.


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## skyblue

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> That's a good idea. More proactive than just boycotting MacMillan.
> 
> $7.99 Now. But wait until March when the price increases go into effect.
> 
> That's exactly what MacMillan is trying to prevent. They want to set the prices and pay Amazon a royalty on that price instead of Amazon discounting the book and paying the publisher a royalty on the list price.


I understand that. What I'm asking is why can't Amazon comply with Macmillan's pricing structure and then offer customers a rebate when they purchase a Macmillan book? It could be in the form of a credit on their account.


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## rho

Here is what I have done - I now have 3 Kindle Wishlists on Amazon - the first one is for Kindle Books I want to buy - the second is Waiting for Price to come down - and the third is waiting for books to come out in Kindle form.

I check them from time to time and change them to the list they currently belong in. Right now my third list is the biggest since I read categories that go from A to Z and there are still quite a few books I would like to read that aren't in Kindle form or are out of print that I am hoping will show up in Kindle form sometime

I think that the second list will be growing - I will pay reluctently $11-12 for a new book from an author that I really really love (that is about what I would have paid in BJ's or Costco) but there aren't that many authors I feel that way about - I will readily pay $9.99 if the book isn't out in paperback and I want it now - - I _*won't*_ pay more for the ebook than the paperback price if it is out in paperback though.


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## Forster

luvmy4brats said:


> Sadly, this isn't true. The Lost Symbol, by Dan Brown was a horrible book. It quickly reached the Bestseller list before released because if advertising and the author's name.


But, but... I thought publishers were there to vet books for us so only _good_ books make it to market. Are you trying to tell me that publishers will market crappy books just to make a buck? I am so disillusioned, lol.


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## LindaW

luvmy4brats said:


> Sadly, this isn't true. The Lost Symbol, by Dan Brown was a horrible book. It quickly reached the Bestseller list before released because if advertising and the author's name.


I agree that one was bad.

But I do have to wonder how many people who read it really thought it was good - or just bought into the hype. I kind of think Dan Brown is overrated.


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## tiggeerrific

Im in the process of getting a kindle before I order I am reading everything I can on it.After reading this post on Macmillan pulling there books am I reading this correctly they did this because they want to charge more for ebooks?
and if this is the case do you think other publishers will do the same?
So if this happens do you think the kindle will still be the cheaper and better way to go ?Other than the conveince of not carrying books if the publishers up there prices where is the savings?
Looking forward to hearing what others have to say


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## Gertie Kindle

LindaW said:


> I agree that one was bad.
> 
> But I do have to wonder how many people who read it really thought it was good - or just bought into the hype. I kind of think Dan Brown is overrated.


I agree. I only read two of his. _DaVinci Code_ and then _Angels and Demons_. The first was okay, the second was better, but neither made me a fan.


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## Shastastan

luvmy4brats said:


> Sadly, this isn't true. The Lost Symbol, by Dan Brown was a horrible book. It quickly reached the Bestseller list before released because if advertising and the author's name.


mega bump.


----------



## Shastastan

Leslie said:


> Okay, I am scratching my head over this one. How can janitorial costs be mixed? If the book is a bestseller or a flop, someone still has to empty the trash and wax the floors. I would think this is a fixed cost along with utilities, rent, etc.
> 
> Please enlighten me...LOL
> 
> L


The janitorial costs for the administrative offices are fixed. The janitorial costs for the plant are mixed because the number of janitors and supplies will be based on the production levels (50%, 75%, 100%). If the plant is not running there will still be some janitorial/maintenance costs, but those costs increase as production increases. We probaby shouldn't be discussing accounting principles here, though. You can pm me if you need more info.


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## Shastastan

bardsandsages said:


> Then you don't understand what actually makes a bestseller.......snip.....
> 
> Remember, despite our personal dedication to ebooks, the majority of books are still sold through brick and mortar stores. The majority of people still shop in actual stores, not online. Amazon might be 20% of the overall book business, but you still have another 80% out there. So if you want a bestseller, you need to be in stores, which means spending money getting book reviews and getting your book dedicated shelf space in various chains.
> 
> With a good distribution system, a single $2,000 ad in Publishers Weekly could equate to 50,000 orders from stores. Listing a book for for free on Amazon for a promotion might result in 2,000 sales.
> 
> snip.....


Many thanks for explaining the facts of life to us. As you can see by these posts, we really need educating about publishing.


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## kjhart0133

Yesterday's news reported that Amazon has backed off on its position not to sell MacMillan ebooks if they would be required to sell them at $14.99 and up.  Amazon says they will once again offer MacMillan's ebooks for the Kindle and allow the buyers to choose if they want to pay the added cost.

I for one choose not to pay such an exorbitant price for an ebook.  I will henceforth buy no more MacMillan ebooks or print books for as long as MacMillan attempts to gouge their customers.  I urge all my fellow ebook readers to do the same.  These companies will not stop as long as customers are willing to fork over their cash for overpriced goods.  MacMillan will only be the first to pursue this onerous pricing; every other publisher will be right behind them.

Vote with your Kindle!! Stop price gouging!!  Boycott MacMillan ebooks!!

Kevin H.


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## Anju 

Kevin I think in the "other" thread, that is exactly what most KBers are suggesting.  I for one am.


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## TheSeagull

$15 isn't bad at all, I'd pay anything up to $30 for an eBook. Though on principle price fixing is bad and I don't like it.


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## Michael R. Hicks

Forster said:


> But, but... I thought publishers were there to vet books for us so only _good_ books make it to market. Are you trying to tell me that publishers will market crappy books just to make a buck? I am so disillusioned, lol.


And on the flip side, how many really good authors get overlooked by the big publishers! D'oh!


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## Flechette

Take it a step or 2 further:

1) email MacM and the author to let them you didn't buy the book and why

2) assuming you buy a different book in it's place; email that publisher and author, let them know you bought their product and say thank you for keeping the price reasonable


The publisher need to heard some positive reinforcement on prices, preferably politely.  For example:

Mr Doe and Random House;

I just purchased book X in e-book form via Amazon.  Thank you for keeping the price to a reasonable $10;  I chose the book over book Z because of the price difference.

Thank you for your time, effort, and an amazing story,

Sincerely,


Me


----------



## Forster

kreelanwarrior said:


> And on the flip side, how many really good authors get overlooked by the big publishers! D'oh!


Agree totally, the last year has been a real eye opener for me. Lots of gems out there by indie authors that I'd never have found w/o the Kindle, internet and the changing book/e-book market.

I believe JA Koranth/Jack Kilborne said something to the fact (in one of his blogs) that the Internet is the new vetting vehicle for authors much like You-Tube is for self made videos. Couldn't agree with him more.


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## kjhart0133

Good suggestions, Flechette.  I'm going to post some emails right away.

And sorry all if I double posted this thread.  I briefly scanned some recent posts and didn't see mention of Amazon's changed position, so I started this thread.

Kevin H.


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## 911jason

TheSeagull said:


> $15 isn't bad at all, I'd pay anything up to $30 for an eBook.


I think I can safely say that you're the extreme exception to the rule.


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## evpseeker

Wow.. What a read. Lots of ya'll with lots to say.  

I find this entire thing to be very shady and distasteful between Jobs and MacMillian. It will make me think long and hard before buying anything from either company. I've never been a big fan of Apple anyway.

For me this is going to be simple. I'm not going to pay anything over my "book budget" for any book. I've had this budget for most of my life, well before I got my Kindle. I never bought books in hardback and there's never been a book that I just HAD to have when it first came out. While I love to read there is no one author that I am crazy over or MUST have his/her books. 

I will continue to read books that are $10 or less and let Amazon and these publishing companies fight it out. Bottom line is the consumers are much more powerful than Jobs, MacMillian and Amazon.


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## Susan B

So much for Macmillian price points. This book is $16.49 for Kindle.


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## 911jason

Ridiculous... make sure to click the appropriate tags.


----------



## Jesslyn

rho said:


> Here is what I have done - I now have 3 Kindle Wishlists on Amazon - the first one is for Kindle Books I want to buy - the second is Waiting for Price to come down - and the third is waiting for books to come out in Kindle form.
> 
> I check them from time to time and change them to the list they currently belong in. Right now my third list is the biggest since I read categories that go from A to Z and there are still quite a few books I would like to read that aren't in Kindle form or are out of print that I am hoping will show up in Kindle form sometime
> 
> I think that the second list will be growing - I will pay reluctently $11-12 for a new book from an author that I really really love (that is about what I would have paid in BJ's or Costco) but there aren't that many authors I feel that way about - I will readily pay $9.99 if the book isn't out in paperback and I want it now - - I _*won't*_ pay more for the ebook than the paperback price if it is out in paperback though.


Good idea. I have a non-Kindle wishlist of things I'm waiting to get Kindled, but I'll add one for prices as well.


----------



## VondaZ

tiggeerrific said:


> After reading this post on Macmillan pulling there books am I reading this correctly they did this because they want to charge more for ebooks? and if this is the case do you think other publishers will do the same? So if this happens do you think the kindle will still be the cheaper and better way to go ?Other than the conveince of not carrying books if the publishers up there prices where is the savings?


Macmillan didn't pull their books, Amazon did. Macmillan wants to dictate the selling price of the e-book, not just the price that they charge Amazon. And yes, Macmillan wants that selling price to be higher (about $15 for new releases). This is also related to doing business with Apple, which wants publishers to enforce these same terms on all of their booksellers. Amazon has conceded these terms and will be reinstating Macmillan's books eventually - but the e-books will be at a higher price as dictated by Macmillan.

I personally wouldn't advise someone to get a Kindle for the savings. Remember, you are investing $250 up front, so if you actually want to save money, you will have to make up your initial investment before you save a dime. That may be easy to do if you read a lot of books - especially if you read public domain books or independent authors. And sometimes publishers run free book promotions where they will make an early work of an author available for free temporarily so that you try out that author and hopefully buy his or her new book that is releasing soon.

Right now, we don't know what is going to happen with pricing. I would guess that the other publishers will follow suit eventually - especially if they want to sell their books in the new Apple iBookstore. It is possible that a publisher may decide to keep the lower pricing with the hopes that they will pick up a lot of business the other publishers lose due to pricing. However, it seems that publishers are more concerned with preserving their print business than with making a profit off of e-books. With time, it may be that all the publishers reduce their prices again, finding that this will maximize their profits. Again, that assumes that they care about their e-book profits and don't just want to sacrifice the e-book in order to try to save their print business.

If you want a Kindle to cash in on cheap new releases, then you may want to wait and see what happens first. On the other hand, if you want a Kindle for its many other advantages, like free classics, inexpensive access to independent work, the ability to change font size easily, the ability to carry around all of your books in your purse, the lack of a need for bookmarks, the light weight of the device compared to many paper books, the built-in dictionary, the search feature, the text-to-speech (not always enabled, though), the ability to make notes, the ability to purchase books and start reading instantly from just about anywhere, etc, then you won't be disappointed in the Kindle. I didn't buy my Kindle to save money (free classics is nice though). I bought it because it is a better reading experience. I don't even care if the prices go up because I just won't buy something if the price isn't worth it. If I really really want a book, I will pay a higher price for it, but there are few books I want that badly. I never want to go back to paper, though. Even though I can't lend my books out anymore - my friends and family usually didn't want to read what I was reading anyway.


----------



## TimonofAthens

Wow!  lots have happend since the last time I was here!  I was in an accident and had to have a couple of months of therapy as I pulled a lot of muscles.  Nothing serious at all, but it's difficult to work on a computer when you're out of alignment.    I have so many chronic health problems anyway that every accident is a major thing.  

I did have an idea for Amazon though.    Maybe they should give out incentive points to customers who by any NYT bestsellers , and that after you accumulate so many points you're allowed to buy any one NYT bestseller at a discount, the discount depending on the price, say two bucks for a 9.99 one and five books for a 14.99 one.  Something tells me if they did this many folks would hold off on a pricier one until they got enough points for it.  

Anyway, just a thought.    Something tells me that Amazon could get a little creative and possibly work something out to their advantage.  I do think they probably made the right choice in offering the pricier books now, as it just wouldn't be good business sense to exclude them. 

And I agree with those that saythey need ePub.  Would bring a few more folks over to the Kindle side...


----------



## Shastastan

@VondaZ

Your last paragraph says it all.  You said it very well, too.


----------



## davem2bits

Susan B said:


> So much for Macmillian price points. This book is $16.49 for Kindle.


The publisher of this book, St Martins is part of Macmillan. Guess Amazon is putting Macmillan's kbooks back on their site. Most kbooks have a higher price when first released and decrease in price over the first couple weeks. We will have to wait and see what happens with the price on this kbook.

List of MacMillan favors in this post:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,19161.msg363520.html#msg363520


----------



## Shastastan

kreelanwarrior said:


> And on the flip side, how many really good authors get overlooked by the big publishers! D'oh!


I read once that Ernest Hemingway got 75 rejections before being accepted. He surely had a lot patience than me.


----------



## cheerio

merge?


----------



## Leslie

Shastastan said:


> I read once that Ernest Hemingway got 75 rejections before being accepted. He surely had a lot patience than me.


And the first Harry Potter book was rejected 36 times before finally finding a publisher.

L


----------



## TimonofAthens

VondaZ said:


> I didn't buy my Kindle to save money (free classics is nice though). I bought it because it is a better reading experience. .


I have to say, I never really considered the price of the books when buying my Kindle either. I can get quite a bit from the libraries here at no cost anyway. The large sized font made me fall in love with it, as well as it's feel in my hands. After having it I realized there were bonuses to it I hadn't even thought of, like the dictionary, and getting rid of a few bookcases of old books so I had more room for a desk and some pictures and a lot less dust. 

And reading in the tub!


----------



## rho

Susan B said:


> So much for Macmillian price points. This book is $16.49 for Kindle.


I set up a tag "will buy when price comes down" maybe someone else could use that too or could set one up "waiting for price to come down" I won't officially boycott Macmillian but I will not buy them till the prices are reasonable - so that is what I feel the tags should show to MacMillian .....


----------



## Leslie

cheerio said:


> merge?


Done.

L


----------



## Susan B

It seems Winter Garden has vanished.


----------



## teiresias

I can't tell if this has been posted here, or if this deserves it's own thread or a title change to this thread, but anyway.

Harper Collins following Macmillan's lead


----------



## Leslie

teiresias said:


> I can't tell if this has been posted here, or if this deserves it's own thread or a title change to this thread, but anyway.
> 
> Harper Collins following Macmillan's lead


We knew it was coming...


----------



## mcl

Leslie said:


> We knew it was coming...


Now we just wait for the other 4 shoes to drop. As a kindle owner, I'm getting rather depressed.


----------



## Atunah

yeah, totally expected that. Once one got the foot in the door, they all come knocking. 

Well I hope they can deal with the fact that more people will flock to the dark corners of the web over this. 

Like I said before, the ONLY time it would be worth to pay that much for a file would be if it is DRM free to be read on whatever device I have, as many times as I want to and has impeccable formatting. So I can make my own backstorage on disk or whatever and story it in my shelf to be read again in 5 years if I want on whatever device I have then, making whatever conversions nessessary.  Otherwise they can stuff it. I won't pay more for more restrictions. 

I wonder what they will do with books that go straight to paperback. Let me guess, they want more money for a restricted "rented" file than a paper book.

Sad sad days.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

So now Harper/Collins.  I'm sure the Big Six drew lots to see who would go first, second, etc.  

Doesn't matter to me what they do.  I'll make my buying decisions based on price and recommendations.  As long as Amazon can show that we're still buying e-books, although not from the Big Boys, they can counter any claims made by MacMillan and their co-conspirators.


----------



## loonlover

My husband purchased my Kindle for me because he was enjoying his so much.  It took me a little longer to embrace the idea, but now I am definitely a convert. I am really enjoying the fact that the bookshelves we cleaned out a couple of years ago are not completely full again.  I don't believe we either one looked at using an e-reader as a way to save money. 

When buying paper books there were some series by particular authors I bought as soon as they were released and certainly I paid more for some authors than others.  I waited for the paperback for other authors.  This will not change now that most purchases are made on Kindle editions.  Also, due to doing most of my reading on the Kindle I have found authors that I would never have read by wandering about a book store.  Some of these have been found through the free and bargain book links here at KB.  Others were due to recommendations made by other members of this board.  Even if I decide that the price for some books is beyond what I wish to pay, I am not concerned about finding plenty of reading material.  I see no reason to be discouraged or depressed about having and using an e-reader.

I've also had fun demonstrating my Kindle to a variety of people who come through where I work.

I would see some of the things occurring right now as just normal growing pains due to changes in the publishing business and the ever evolving field of technology.


----------



## chipotle

I wonder if this is all going to end up in court. 

After a weekend of reading various comments dissing those of us who read ebooks on publishing and author blogs, I realized most of their opinions don't matter. We Kindle owners are the only ones who will ultimately decide how the Kindle books are priced. I suspect most Kindle owners don't have an unlimited book budget and probably most use price as a consideration in determining their purchases. I don't really think prices will become unreasonable no matter what the big publishers want.

Plus I'm looking at all this as an excellent opportunity to seek out some great indie authors and publishers.


----------



## JimC1946

chipotle said:


> Plus I'm looking at all this as an excellent opportunity to seek out some great indie authors and publishers.


Yes! There's a ton of Indie talent out there.


----------



## Gayle

Just for the sake of curiosity, a few minutes ago, I went to the Macmillan website and looked up the February release of Winter Gardens by Kristen Hannah.  The hardback version is listed for sale at $26.99; the ebook version for $29.95 and the only formats listed are Adobe Digital and ePub.  This is just wrong IMO.  As much as I am angered, I am so much more disappointed.

Prior to purchasing my Kindle, I purchased very few hardbacks.  This was partly due to cost, but mostly because of lack of storage space and being unable to find books I wanted at the brick and mortar stores.  I purchased several paperbacks, but my friends and I had a deal to buy different books so we could pass them around and get more reading for our money.

Since purchasing the Kindle, I no longer have that option--none of my friends have embraced the ereader yet.  Books I want to read, I now purchase.  Thus...an increase in my book budget.  But...that's ok.  I made that choice for the convenience of finding books and having instant availablility.   

If the publishers think by making the ebook cost more that I will purchase the hardback, they are mistaken.  If I didn't buy the hardback before, I certainly will not buy it now.

If my money is not good enough for them; then, when I run out of books to read on my Kindle, I'll go back to swapping paperbacks with my friends.  Meanwhile, I have read several indie authors and enjoyed their books tremendously.


----------



## Chad Winters

chipotle said:


> I wonder if this is all going to end up in court.
> 
> After a weekend of reading various comments dissing those of us who read ebooks on publishing and author blogs, I realized most of their opinions don't matter. We Kindle owners are the only ones who will ultimately decide how the Kindle books are priced. I suspect most Kindle owners don't have an unlimited book budget and probably most use price as a consideration in determining their purchases. I don't really think prices will become unreasonable no matter what the big publishers want.
> 
> Plus I'm looking at all this as an excellent opportunity to seek out some great indie authors and publishers.


You're assuming that they actually want to sell us books. MacMillan would be quite happy (for awhile) if no one bought ebooks. They think that means we will buy $25 hardcovers instead. Most of us won't.... but I never said they were smart.


----------



## Leslie

I have said it before and I'll say it again...I have discovered so many books and authors from smaller, more indie type publishers (and a few indie authors themselves) since I have my Kindle that it is all good. I have discovered so many more good books--really good books and authors--I might never need to go back to the Big Six publishers ever again in my life. Seriously.

Remember the big accounting firms? What were they? The Big Eight or something? How many are left? Publishers are stupid if they think they are invincible.

L


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Ditto, Leslie.  I'm even reading and enjoying genres that I would never have considered before, all from indie authors and publishers.  

Just realized that my beloved Agatha Christie books are published by Harper Collins.  I had better hurry up and get the rest of them before the price goes up.  They are still $4.79.


----------



## Shastastan

Leslie said:


> I have said it before and I'll say it again...I have discovered so many books and authors from smaller, more indie type publishers (and a few indie authors themselves) since I have my Kindle that it is all good. I have discovered so many more good books--really good books and authors--I might never need to go back to the Big Six publishers ever again in my life. Seriously.
> 
> Remember the big accounting firms? What were they? The Big Eight or something? How many are left? Publishers are stupid if they think they are invincible.
> 
> L


You are correct, Leslie. There were 8 when I left one (Deloitte & Touche now). There have been mergers and the last I heard there were 5.


----------



## scottnicholson

I'm new to the board but I've read probably a thousand comments on blog forums (mostly at Amazon) on this issue. As both a NY author and a new Kindle self-published author, I have a unique perspective, but mainly I feel the major publishers failed to plan ahead for a rapidly changing world. I was among those laughing in the 1990s when everybody said ebooks were the future. Now I feel like I am five years behind the times.

I am kind of surprised authors are not clued in to how much they are getting ripped off in this current ebook royalty status. They generally make nearly the same as a paper book but the publisher makes plenty of money, even if the production costs are spread over all possible formats. Ebooks should certainly not be more than $9.99 under any circumstance, though I am well aware some people are willing to pay more. Many indie authors, like me, feel that a couple of bucks is a fair price to pay.

But I also believe the downward slide of ebook prices is inevitable. There are too many indie publishers now and more choices, and more authors are going to jump ship and go for the high royalty rates and low overhead of ebooks.

Scott Nicholson
The Red Church


----------



## Shastastan

Sclott:  I hope you are right.  My sense (and this is very subjective) is that the major publishers are hoping that ebooks will just disappear.  There are some authors though who do not want anything to do with ebooks such as Grisham and Rowling.  Do you think that Patterson, Grafton, Steele, Connelly, and the like will also jump ship?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Shastastan said:


> Sclott: I hope you are right. My sense (and this is very subjective) is that the major publishers are hoping that ebooks will just disappear. There are some authors though who do not want anything to do with ebooks such as Grisham and Rowling. Do you think that Patterson, Grafton, Steele, Connelly, and the like will also jump ship?


I thought I read a while ago that Grisham changed his mind. As for Rowling, I don't think she ever will. I keep trying to Imperius her into going with e-books, but no success so far.


----------



## chipotle

Here's an article from Yahoo Finance  that says Amazon will win this fight. Round One - Amazon loses less money on ebook sales. Round Two - more authors defect from their publishers due to decreased sales and publish directly through Amazon to make much higher royalties.


----------



## Susan B

Thanks for posting here, Scott. I've enjoyed reading your clear and concise posts at the Amazon Kindle forums.


----------



## teiresias

chipotle said:


> Here's an article from Yahoo Finance  that says Amazon will win this fight. Round One - Amazon loses less money on ebook sales. Round Two - more authors defect from their publishers due to decreased sales and publish directly through Amazon to make much higher royalties.


Your link isn't working chipotle and I can't seem to find the article your talking about via search.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

teiresias said:


> Your link isn't working chipotle and I can't seem to find the article your talking about via search.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-Amazon-vs-Macmillan-Amazon-paidcontent-3683130300.html?x=0&.v=1&.pf=personal-finance&mod=pf-personal-finance

I suspect the above is the article. It actually is less doom-and-gloomy than most of the stuff I've seen about this issue.


----------



## rho

so is anyone other than me thinking that if I am going to pay more for ebooks I want to be able to put them on as many Kindles as I have - and they will be in my library for ever - or to be used on any ereader that I own. 

Maybe this will be a direction Amazon and others will take ... which would be interesting 

I'm probably delusional because I do think I have a fever right now though


----------



## Rasputina

chipotle said:


> Here's an article from Yahoo Finance  that says Amazon will win this fight. Round One - Amazon loses less money on ebook sales. Round Two - more authors defect from their publishers due to decreased sales and publish directly through Amazon to make much higher royalties.


the major problem with that theory is that Amazon only publishes ebooks and there is money to be made in the print market. So no, I don't see established authors abandoning their publishing houses to sell book exclusively through Amazons e publishing.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

Rasputina said:


> the major problem with that theory is that Amazon only publishes ebooks and there is money to be made in the print market. So no, I don't see established authors abandoning their publishing houses to sell book exclusively through Amazons e publishing.


For the older backlist books, there is definitely potential for that--Remember what Stephen Covey did a month or so back (seems like ages ago!).


----------



## mlewis78

Zia Star said:


> Just for the sake of curiosity, a few minutes ago, I went to the Macmillan website and looked up the February release of Winter Gardens by Kristen Hannah. The hardback version is listed for sale at $26.99; the ebook version for $29.95 and the only formats listed are Adobe Digital and ePub. This is just wrong IMO. As much as I am angered, I am so much more disappointed.


$29.95 for an ebook is outrageous!! I wouldn't pay that much for a hardcover, let alone an ebook. Do they think readers are made of money? Who would pay that much? I've noticed in Books on Board and a few other ebook websites that the prices are _*way*_ out of my budget.


----------



## Gayle

The new release of the Kristen Hannah book is "for sale" on the Barnes and Noble site tonight at $14.99.  It sure didn't take them long to start raising prices.... By the way, this book is still NOT listed on Amazon.com.

Needless to say...even though I like this author...I won't be buying this book.


----------



## Snapcat

mlewis78 said:


> $29.95 for an ebook is outrageous!! I wouldn't pay that much for a hardcover, let alone an ebook.


Agreed! I think it's time to renew my library card for any books that are priced that outrageously. I have never paid above ten dollars, and am not about to start paying thirty dollars! 

I think my future ebook purchases will be mostly indie authors and bargain books until people realize that this huge price gauging isn't going to work.


----------



## luv4kitties

So, I've been thinking about all this and I have a plan.     If there's an e-book I want and I feel that it's overpriced, I will:
1.  Check it out from the library.  If it's not available at the library, I will buy a USED paper copy (no profit for the publisher).  After I read it, I will promptly donate it to the library so a lot of people can read it without paying for an overpriced book.
2.  I will tag the book on Amazon.  I'm not sure what the tag should say.  I'm thinking about something like, "overpriced ebook-bought USED book instead" or "overpriced-checked out from library."  I'll have to think more about the wording of the tag.
3.  For every overpriced book that leads me to buy a USED paper copy, I will search out a reasonably priced e-book that I want to read and buy that e-book.  This will reward publishers who price e-books reasonably and I will be doing my part to make the point that there is a BIG market for e-books.  

I guess individual definitions of what is overpriced will vary.  I think that, if the book has been out in paperback for more than 3 years, the e-book price should be less than $5.  If the book has been out in paperback less than 3 years, I think $5-6.50 is reasonable.  For newly released books that are otherwise only available in hardcover, I think $9.99 is fair for an e-book, but I most likely won't be buying at that price because I just don't want to spend that much money on any book (but I won't "penalize" publishers by buying a used paper book, I'll just wait for a lower priced e-book, which I will expect when the paperback comes out).  In all cases, the e-book should be priced significantly less than the least expensive paper version.  Anyway, that's my humble opinion and my plan.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

The Hooded Claw said:


> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-Amazon-vs-Macmillan-Amazon-paidcontent-3683130300.html?x=0&.v=1&.pf=personal-finance&mod=pf-personal-finance
> 
> I suspect the above is the article. It actually is less doom-and-gloomy than most of the stuff I've seen about this issue.


Thanks for the link. I think this is closer to what will happen.

The salient points for me is:



> Instead, people will use near-term substitution, favoring cheaper books (readers always have a list of five books they want to read, they'll just go down the list until they find one that is available at a reasonable price).
> 
> <snip>
> 
> One result of this riff: If publishers make less off of e-books (and Amazon makes more), even at $14.99, then publishers have less to give to authors, who are increasingly reconsidering their contracts (especially authors with big followings like Steven R. Covey and Paul Coelho) in light of new promises from Amazon to offer dramatically higher royalties for authors who work directly with Amazon. Hmm, smells like round two of this fight may also go to Amazon as well.


There are probably enormous amounts of authors with a long backlist that never signed away their digital rights. They can still publish their print book through the Big Guys (which seems to be what they want anyway) and sell their e-books directly through Amazon.


----------



## geoffthomas

Gertie,
I am not a sure as you are about how many established authors have ebook rights to their backlist.
As has been posted in another thread, three well-known authors (C.J. Cherryh, Lynn Abby and Jane Fancher) have established their own store - ClosedCircle.com.
They are taking the books whose ebook rights have reverted back to them by virtue of non-printing by the publishers and started to put them online for direct sale.  In their blogs one finds a wealth of info about this subject from the point of view of authors trying to live off their efforts as published authors.  If you are a Rawlings or a Clancy there is a lot of money in writing.  But if you are a niche writer or specific to a genre, you will still have a small run printed by the publishers.  And your take is what they contracted to give you.  
C.J. has indicated that she received requests all the time from fans who want a new book about a particular character but that the publisher has the rights to all future books in the contracted series and they have indicated that they would not print a manuscript if she submitted it.  So the work languishes until she gets the rights back.  And that is in the DTB arena.  But it holds for the ebook rights for those works too.  At least in her case.  

But keep on supporting the indie authors here.
And the established authors who are beginning to make their work available "direct".
Soon there won't be any big publishers.
Just people like Leslie and bardsandsages.
Just sayin.....


----------



## ElaineOK

Amazon capitulated far too quickly for them to think they were rolling over and losing.  Amazon is more than 40% of the major bookstore market in this Country, and still a huge percent of the total book market.  They had plenty of power if they had chosen to use it.  They chose not to, and I believe that they did so for a reason.  

OTOH, the pre-release for the next Temaraire book just hit on Amazon.com.  This is not a MacMillan book.  Release date is set for July 13 in hardback and ebook.  The prerelease on the ebook is $15.00.  I think not.

Elaine
Norman, OK


----------



## vermontcathy

People here seem to be saying things like, "I better buy some books I want before the price goes up". Do people really think that the price on books that have been out a while (more than a year) will go up? I am really hoping that the higher prices are just for new releases, and the prices will come down, by the time the paperback comes out, at the latest. If this is the plan, it would make no sense to raise prices on books that are already out in paperback (and are already less than $9.99).

Thoughts?


----------



## Gertie Kindle

geoffthomas said:


> Gertie,
> I am not a sure as you are about how many established authors have ebook rights to their backlist.


I'm not so sure they have the rights, either. I think I just didn't make myself clear. In the original contracts for books published before e-books started to become so popular, there may not have been clauses at all for digital rights. This is one of the reasons we are not seeing some books be digitized. The publishers and authors are still negotiating digital rights.



> C.J. has indicated that she received requests all the time from fans who want a new book about a particular character but that the publisher has the rights to all future books in the contracted series and they have indicated that they would not print a manuscript if she submitted it. So the work languishes until she gets the rights back. And that is in the DTB arena. But it holds for the ebook rights for those works too. At least in her case.


Yes, I know that is the case. Even Nora Roberts has no right to the characters she created when she was with Silhouette  and her backlist will probably be printed for many years to come. Silhouette seems to have no interest in digitizing her books, so maybe they don't have the e-rights. I suspect this is the Chasm of Death that many long-time authors have fallen into.



> But keep on supporting the indie authors here.
> And the established authors who are beginning to make their work available "direct".
> Soon there won't be any big publishers.
> Just people like Leslie and bardsandsages.
> Just sayin.....


Oh, yes. Since this whole debacle, I bought five Indie books from KB authors. I don't know when I will get to read them, but they are tucked safely away on Little Gertie.


----------



## Flechette

KindleUndecided said:


> So, I've been thinking about all this and I have a plan.  If there's an e-book I want and I feel that it's overpriced, I will:
> 1. Check it out from the library. If it's not available at the library, I will buy a USED paper copy (no profit for the publisher). After I read it, I will promptly donate it to the library so a lot of people can read it without paying for an overpriced book.
> 2. I will tag the book on Amazon. I'm not sure what the tag should say. I'm thinking about something like, "overpriced ebook-bought USED book instead" or "overpriced-checked out from library." I'll have to think more about the wording of the tag.
> 3. For every overpriced book that leads me to buy a USED paper copy, I will search out a reasonably priced e-book that I want to read and buy that e-book. This will reward publishers who price e-books reasonably and I will be doing my part to make the point that there is a BIG market for e-books.
> 
> I guess individual definitions of what is overpriced will vary. I think that, if the book has been out in paperback for more than 3 years, the e-book price should be less than $5. If the book has been out in paperback less than 3 years, I think $5-6.50 is reasonable. For newly released books that are otherwise only available in hardcover, I think $9.99 is fair for an e-book, but I most likely won't be buying at that price because I just don't want to spend that much money on any book (but I won't "penalize" publishers by buying a used paper book, I'll just wait for a lower priced e-book, which I will expect when the paperback comes out). In all cases, the e-book should be priced significantly less than the least expensive paper version. Anyway, that's my humble opinion and my plan.


My Plan exactly - but I'd like to suggest 2 more steps:

1) Email the Publishing company and Author as to why you didn't buy their book

2) email the publishing company and author of the book you bought and tell them why and thanks 

I personally am comfortable w/ $11.99 for a new ebook, available in HB, for an author I really like--ie Nora Roberts, Jim Butcher. $5.50 - $6.40 for a new ebook available in paperback for beloved authors; $3 -$5 for new authors - it takes about 3-4 books to reach "beloved status"


----------



## BTackitt

certain, specific books, (ie very rarely) I will be willing to shell out big $ for a book, otherwise, this just sent me on a hard search for alternate reading materials.  I just Dl almost 20 new books this morning, at $1 or less. and NONE of them are from ANY McM pub.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Just browsing through the Amazon boards and found another author who got her rights back. Here's her post.



> Hi there, everyone. I've been writing romances since 1998, but recently took a long sabbatical due to family and health reasons. I'm finally back! I presently only have three romances available:
> 
> The Nerd Prince
> 
> I'll Be There For You
> 
> Shadows of Night
> 
> I've gotten back the rights on most of my other romances and plan on making some of them available in Kindle format (and I'm hoping to write some new ones, too!). I've also finally gotten up a new website:
> 
> http://ellenfisherromance.blogspot.com
> 
> On my site, you can find a cover and excerpt for the first book I'm putting into Kindle format, a contemporary romance entitled "In the Mood." I'm new at this, but I'm hoping it'll be up by Valentine's Day!


----------



## Chad Winters

It really tee's me off that they won't print the book and won't let anyone else print it either.


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> It really tee's me off that they won't print the book and won't let anyone else print it either.


Yes, and it's scary to think of how many authors and books are in that situation. Ugh...


----------



## Jeff

[quote author=http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6717518.html]
Murdoch Expects Amazon to Negotiate E-book Terms​
By Jim Milliot -- Publishers Weekly, 2/3/2010 7:19:00 AM

In a conference with analysts and media discussing News Corp.'s second quarter results, chairman Rupert Murdoch said he expects to soon be negotiating new terms over e-book prices with Amazon. "We don't like the Amazon model of selling everything at $9.99," Murdoch said on the call. "We think it really devalues books and it hurts all the retailers of the hardcover books." Murdoch said News--parent company of HarperCollins--likes the e-book business, but said it wants some room to maneuver in it. HC's agreement with Apple "allows for a variety of slightly higher prices" than Amazon, Murdoch explained. "There will be prices very much less than the printed copies of books, but still will not be fixed in a way that Amazon has been doing it. It appears that Amazon is now ready to sit down with us again and renegotiate pricing," Murdoch said.
Murdoch's e-book comments were part of comments in which he defended the value of content in the digital age, and said content is now worth more than ever. "Content is not just king. It is the emperor of all things electronic," Murdoch said. "Devices and platforms are proliferating, but this clever technology is merely an empty vessel without any great content. Machines are not powered by batteries but by creativity and ingenuity. By content that is original, accessible and trusted," In reeling off a list or companies News owns that will benefit from the need for content, Murdoch included Harper, calling its "one of the world's leading publishing houses."

[/quote]


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Here's the list of Harper/Collins imprints.

    * Amistad
    * Avon
    * Avon A
    * Avon Inspire
    * Avon Red
    * Caedmon
    * Collins
    * Harper Business
    * Collins Design
    * Collins Living
    * Ecco
    * Eos
    * Harper Mass Market
    * Harper Paperbacks
    * Harper Perennial
    * HarperAudio
    * HarperCollins
    * HarperCollins e-Books
    * ItBooks
    * HarperLuxe
    * HarperOne
    * HarperStudio
    * Morrow Cookbooks
    * Rayo
    * William Morrow

U.S. Publishing Imprints - Children's Books

    * Amistad
    * Eos
    * Greenwillow Books
    * HarperCollins Children's Audio
    * HarperCollins Children's Books
    * HarperFestival
    * HarperEntertainment
    * HarperTeen
    * HarperTrophy
    * Joanna Cotler Books
    * Julie Andrews Collection
    * Katherine Tegen Books
    * Laura Geringer Books
    * Rayo


----------



## Chad Winters

kreelanwarrior said:


> Yes, and it's scary to think of how many authors and books are in that situation. Ugh...


Unfortunately, New York would much prefer that I read Dan Brown than a mid-list genre author.

To NY: NOT GOING TO READ DAN BROWN....GET OVER IT!!! 

NY's ideal world: Dozens of bookstores in each city, all carrying 20 NYT Bestellers.....AND NOTHING ELSE. Because time spent reading CJ Cherryh could be time spent reading Dan Brown!!

*END Hyperbole*


----------



## Gertie Kindle

BTackitt said:


> certain, specific books, (ie very rarely) I will be willing to shell out big $ for a book, otherwise, this just sent me on a hard search for alternate reading materials. I just Dl almost 20 new books this morning, at $1 or less. and NONE of them are from ANY McM pub.


One book at $15 or 15 books at $1 ... hmmmmm, tough choice.


----------



## davem2bits

vermontcathy said:


> People here seem to be saying things like, "I better buy some books I want before the price goes up". Do people really think that the price on books that have been out a while (more than a year) will go up? I am really hoping that the higher prices are just for new releases, and the prices will come down, by the time the paperback comes out, at the latest. If this is the plan, it would make no sense to raise prices on books that are already out in paperback (and are already less than $9.99).
> 
> Thoughts?


Now that Apple has gotten involved, the skies the limit. Are older songs cheaper on iTunes? Mr J does not believe in discounting stuff.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

vermontcathy said:


> People here seem to be saying things like, "I better buy some books I want before the price goes up". Do people really think that the price on books that have been out a while (more than a year) will go up? I am really hoping that the higher prices are just for new releases, and the prices will come down, by the time the paperback comes out, at the latest. If this is the plan, it would make no sense to raise prices on books that are already out in paperback (and are already less than $9.99).
> 
> Thoughts?


Just looking at Agatha Christie, the paperbacks now run between $6.99 and $16.00 and Curtain, her last Poirot book, was published in the 70's. If some of her paperbacks run that high, it seems plausible to me that they will raise the e-book price as well.


----------



## davem2bits

ElaineOK said:


> OTOH, the pre-release for the next Temaraire book just hit on Amazon.com. This is not a MacMillan book. Release date is set for July 13 in hardback and ebook. The prerelease on the ebook is $15.00. I think not.


This isn't that unusual, most new kbooks start out with a higher price and drop as the paper book becomes popular.


----------



## HappyGuy

I wonder if Mr. Bezos will get


Spoiler



pissed off


 enough to buy his own publishing house? I mean, think of the possibilities ... makes yer eyes glow!!!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

If this has been resolved then why can't I buy the books that I want?

I guess I fall some where in between the arguments. I have always advocated the pay what you think is fair system to read what you want to read. If the Publisher charges more then I think a book is worth, I won't buy it. Amazon should sell the books at the publishers price and I will pay for them if I think it is worth it. If enough people choose not to buy a book because it is priced to high, then the book doesn't sell, and hopefully the Publisher realizes that they charged too much and drop the price. Heck, Sarah Palin's book is selling for under $5 right now for just that reason. And that is the hardcover!

I am a bit pissed that I cannot easily purchase the Robert Jordan books that I wish to buy at this moment. It is inconvient and annoying. I asked for a Kindle for convience and to save my house from eventually being over run by books. 

Realisticly speaking, I download the free books but have not enjoyed any of the ones that I have read. I have not bought books because they are cheap. I buy books because they look interesting and have been good reviews or have been recommended. I tend to send $7 for a book and I am fine with that. I have spent $15 for a new release. I bought Dan Brown's new book for whatever silly price it was on the day it was released (I liked Angles and Demons and thought Divinci was good, Lost Symbol was awful). I would love to see John Dos Passos work on the Kindle but that is not going to happen any time soon because so few people know who Jhn Dos Passos is and his work is under copyright protection. 

What I am saying is just sell the books and let me decide what I will pay. 

And I really want to read the rest of Robert Jordan's book so this silly whatever is driving me nuts.


----------



## Tip10

ProfCrash said:


> If this has been resolved then why can't I buy the books that I want?
> 
> I guess I fall some where in between the arguments. I have always advocated the pay what you think is fair system to read what you want to read. If the Publisher charges more then I think a book is worth, I won't buy it. Amazon should sell the books at the publishers price and I will pay for them if I think it is worth it. If enough people choose not to buy a book because it is priced to high, then the book doesn't sell, and hopefully the Publisher realizes that they charged too much and drop the price. Heck, Sarah Palin's book is selling for under $5 right now for just that reason. And that is the hardcover!
> 
> I am a bit p*ssed that I cannot easily purchase the Robert Jordan books that I wish to buy at this moment. It is inconvient and annoying. I asked for a Kindle for convience and to save my house from eventually being over run by books.
> 
> Realisticly speaking, I download the free books but have not enjoyed any of the ones that I have read. I have not bought books because they are cheap. I buy books because they look interesting and have been good reviews or have been recommended. I tend to send $7 for a book and I am fine with that. I have spent $15 for a new release. I bought Dan Brown's new book for whatever silly price it was on the day it was released (I liked Angles and Demons and thought Divinci was good, Lost Symbol was awful). I would love to see John Dos Passos work on the Kindle but that is not going to happen any time soon because so few people know who Jhn Dos Passos is and his work is under copyright protection.
> 
> What I am saying is just sell the books and let me decide what I will pay.
> 
> And I really want to read the rest of Robert Jordan's book so this silly whatever is driving me nuts.


Well Said!!
Close enough to my own sentiments that I can go with it.
We may differ on authors but the jist of the comment is the same. 
THANKS


----------



## Chad Winters

I would agree as well, except I really feel MacMillan would not mind pricing the ebook at $100 and they don't care if it sells zero. They feel that I would then go buy the hardcover which is what I want in the first place. Free-market economy sounds great in this case, but not if they don't want to supply ebooks in the first place.


----------



## vickir

As to donating books to libraries, I am on the board of a county library. Now I know that Pennsylvania does things differently than other states, but this may be an issue in your state, too. We have to raise so much per year as the local match to state funds. When someone donates a book, we can't count the value as the local match. When you donate cash, you can. Just keep in mind to help your library.


----------



## Tip10

I believe our libraries here have similar kinds of restrictions but basically skirt the issue by selling all donated books at their semi-annual used book sales (along with surplus from the library system itself).  All proceeds from the sale ARE included in the match.


----------



## mcl

So, I sent a long and thoughtful letter to Mr. Bezos and Mr. Sergent on Sunday.

Today, I got responses from both.

Amazon's response was a canned response containing a link to their Sunday Kindle Team capitulation post on the Amazon forum.

Macmillan's response was a canned response containing the text of their weekend letter to distributors and authors.



Way to completely ignore the customer, both of you.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Tip10 said:


> I believe our libraries here have similar kinds of restrictions but basically skirt the issue by selling all donated books at their semi-annual used book sales (along with surplus from the library system itself). All proceeds from the sale ARE included in the match.


My libraries have books on sale all year long. It was a major source of books for me.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> I would agree as well, except I really feel MacMillan would not mind pricing the ebook at $100 and they don't care if it sells zero. They feel that I would then go buy the hardcover which is what I want in the first place. Free-market economy sounds great in this case, but not if they don't want to supply ebooks in the first place.


If they don't supply them then I won't buy them. It is that simple. I am not buying DTB any more. (shrugs) I want to read these books, if they are not available I will read something else. If they are priced too high, I will read something else.

What honks me off is that a week ago they were available and today they are not. That is annoying. Really, really annoying.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

mcl said:


> So, I sent a long and thoughtful letter to Mr. Bezos and Mr. Sergent on Sunday.
> 
> Today, I got responses from both.
> 
> Amazon's response was a canned response containing a link to their Sunday Kindle Team capitulation post on the Amazon forum.
> 
> Macmillan's response was a canned response containing the text of their weekend letter to distributors and authors.
> 
> Way to completely ignore the customer, both of you.


I had the exact same experience, though in both cases it was actually what I expected. Considering the number of people who presumably wrote such letters, not to mention the number of people who contact them on other stuff, I'd have been astonished if they'd written individual replies. My suspicion is that they either are skimming the letters and categorizing each email as one of a handful of categories (pro-amazon, pro-MacMillan, etc.) or conceivably not reading them at all, and sending a computerized response based on a keyword search (you've seen it in customer service emails to other organizations, where they assume what your question is based on a keyword). I'm not surprised and not offended, myself. Though I'll admit that a response that suggested my letter had actually been read would have been nice!


----------



## Shastastan

vermontcathy said:


> People here seem to be saying things like, "I better buy some books I want before the price goes up". Do people really think that the price on books that have been out a while (more than a year) will go up? I am really hoping that the higher prices are just for new releases, and the prices will come down, by the time the paperback comes out, at the latest. If this is the plan, it would make no sense to raise prices on books that are already out in paperback (and are already less than $9.99).
> 
> Thoughts?


Aside from the current controversy, I have seen prices go up on books that have been out for awhile--maybe even years. Also, I've seen some pretty high prices on books that have been out in paperback form for many years. I have seen prices come down, too. As to the current situation, I don't think the prices will be the same as they have been in the past. FWIW


----------



## campbill

akjak said:


> I hope Amazon is wielding a big enough stick to whip the publishers in line. Apple did it with music, and hopefully Amazon (and Apple if they're in agreement) can keep ebooks at a reasonable price.


I'm thinking (hoping?) that Kindle readers have the 'big stick'.

If MacMillan sees a drop in sales, due to their decision to up prices, maybe they will reconsider their position.

If they go through with their intention to raise prices above the current pricing structure, I hope people will stop buying their books. There are enough other publishers, that people ought to be able to find something interesting to read without patronizing MacMillan.

The only way that they will get the message is if revenues drop as a result of their position.

Be assured, if they get away with it, all other publishers will follow! For me, despite how much I love my Kindle, if the prices go up - it's back to the public library (and the attendant late fines) for me.


----------



## drenee

I've checked five books that I have been price watching for a few months.  They were 7.99, they are now 9.99.  They are all over 5 years old and MacMillan authors.
deb


----------



## Gertie Kindle

drenee said:


> I've checked five books that I have been price watching for a few months. They were 7.99, they are now 9.99. They are all over 5 years old and MacMillan authors.
> deb


So they aren't even waiting until March.


----------



## drenee

Nope...and the books are coming back up slowly with the increased price.  And they were books I wanted to buy and was waiting for the price to come DOWN.  Gesh.
deb


----------



## mlewis78

Amazon still doesn't have Macmillian new books up on the website.  The ones that list other places (marketplace) where you can buy them.


----------



## TimonofAthens

drenee said:


> Nope...and the books are coming back up slowly with the increased price. And they were books I wanted to buy and was waiting for the price to come DOWN. Gesh.
> deb


Boy, that really does suck!  To me that's just not right. It's one thing to say that from now on we need to increase prices, but quite anothe IMHO to start raising what's already out there.

I certainly won't be buying any until the prices drop. My budget is limited anyway, so that makes it just a little easier for me to decide what I will spend those funds on.


----------



## chipotle

Keep checking the prices of Kindle books you're interested because they seem to be constantly changing. 

I've been watching the Janet Evanovich Stephanie Plum book prices since they were added back to Amazon and in the last 24 hours the ebook for One for the Money, an 11 year old book has been $9.99, $7.99, and now it is $6.39  - the first time the ebook has been priced less than the paperback. The second book in the series is currently $9.99 in the Kindle version, $2.50 more than the paperback and the copyright date is either 1999 or 1996 according to the Amazon page.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Sounds like they have no idea what they are doing.


----------



## sherylb

Sounds like a reverse auction...keep lowering the price until someone buys and then they will go on to other books and do the same to see what the market price is.


----------



## tchernabyelo

There seem to be some rather surprising attitudes and beliefs being expressed on this board.  People here seem to think that (among other things):
Publishers don't like eBooks
Publishers don't like readers
Writers are rich and greedy
Writers don't like eBooks
Writers don't like readers

OK, what publishers like is making MONEY, because they are big corporations.  The comments above about the "big 6" warned by being compared to the big accounting firms is kind of amusing - the accounting firms didn't magically go away, they actually coalesced into fewer and EVEN MORE POWERFUL ones.  Which in general is not good for consumers - consumers benefit from CHOICE.

Amazon itself, it should be noted, is also a big corporatoin and is also ALL about making money.

Individual authors are not big corporations, have no power, and are basically hostages to their publishers and readers.  It takes thousands upon thousands of hours to write a book, and if you actually calculate the normal sales/financial return, it is for MOST authors a ridiculously LOW-paid profession.  Indeed, most authors probably get less than minimum wage for their efforts.  Writing well takes years of practice, and certainly that isn't factored in either (most people don't sell the first novel they write - they may manage to seel their third or fourth, and they MAY then be able to go back and turn their earlier efforts into something saleable too).  

Authors and publishers LOVE readers.  The more readers they have, the better.  It is going to take publishers a long time to come to terms with the ever-changing eBook and technological landscape, and they may not all handle this well.  Historically, books have been a VERY unusual commodity in that the price is set by the produer, not the retailer (though of course MRSPs exist in other fields and can be overridden by bookshops as they are with other products).  But most authors I know are very keen on eBooks because they are a new way to reach readers.  However, they are not so keen on being paid less for their work, and all the talk of price points here misses the fact that the cost of publishing is still significant even without the cost of the physical paper book at the end of it.

Pricing structures are fluctuating and will continue to fluctuate.  The general pricing of product, particularly electronic product, is usually front-end loaded: if you want it first you pay a premium, if you are ready to wait for the price to come down it generally will.  But the system relies on there being enough people being willing to want it, and pay for it NOW/upfront.  If everyone says "oh, I'll wait until it comes out in a $5.99 edition"... well, the publisher has difficulty knowing whether a given book will make enough money to cover costs, let alone a profit.  So you get publishers only willing to take on proven talent - the Rowlings and Kings and Browns of the world, who ARE rich but are also HUGELY atypical as writers go.

Please, those of you on here who are so critical of the big publishers and of authors, and who think Amazon is "fighting your case" - Amazon is fighting AMAZON's case, and no other, and while superficially its stance on price may be appealing, you should consider what the longer-term ramifications might be before praising them to the hilt and considering everyone else involved to be nasty evil greedy people who hate readers.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

tchernabyelo said:


> Please, those of you on here who are so critical of the big publishers and of authors, and who think Amazon is "fighting your case" - Amazon is fighting AMAZON's case, and no other, and while superficially its stance on price may be appealing, you should consider what the longer-term ramifications might be before praising them to the hilt and considering everyone else involved to be nasty evil greedy people who hate readers.


I don't think we've been critical of authors. Many of us here ARE authors. Those authors who are hooked up with big publishers have seen their royalties cut, not by Amazon, but by their own publishers. It is unfortunate they are going to be hurt even further because the reading public won't pay outrageous prices for their books. Again, we know that the authors have no say in this.

Amazon gave me and many other indie authors an opportunity to put our work in front of the public. Yes, they profit from my work, as well they should, but they also provided the software and the platform for publication. Even CreateSpace provides an extremely inexpensive way to publish a paper book as opposed to the old vanity presses that left you with nothing but a garage full of unsaleable books. Is Amazon my hero? You betcha.


----------



## drenee

You're definitely going to read a gamut of emotions in this thread. 
Leslie started the thread very soon after the announcement was made and it's been going strong for about a week now. 
KB has given many folks a chance to express _their opinion_, learn what others think, and muddle through the whole mess along with other members. While some folks have been very adamant in their opinions, I don't see on KB the same kind of rambling I read on other forums over this last weekend. 
KB mods and members have prided themselves on being respectful to one another while understanding that not everyone sees the same issue through the same set of eyes. 
The whole issue would have been a lot easier for everyone if each party would have clearly stated their reasons for their actions. Unfortunately that isn't how the world always works, and as customers we're left to wonder what's going to happen next.

deb


----------



## Chad Winters

tchernabyelo said:


> There seem to be some rather surprising attitudes and beliefs being expressed on this board. People here seem to think that (among other things):
> Publishers don't like eBooks
> Publishers don't like readers
> Writers are rich and greedy
> Writers don't like eBooks
> Writers don't like readers


I have to question if you actually read this thread. There are certainly some sentiments that the big publishers don't like ebooks and I think there is ample evidence to back this up. But I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't see the difference between the pub and the author.

Are you stating that you think it is ok to pay $15 for a DRM locked ebook while the paperback sells for $7.99?


----------



## mcl

tchernabyelo said:


> There seem to be some rather surprising attitudes and beliefs being expressed on this board. People here seem to think that (among other things):
> Publishers don't like eBooks
> Publishers don't like readers
> Writers are rich and greedy
> Writers don't like eBooks
> Writers don't like readers


No, I don't think any of us would ever believe writers are rich.

But, as with the above respondent, I really have to wonder if you've read the rest of this thread.


----------



## TimonofAthens

tchernabyelo said:


> There seem to be some rather surprising attitudes and beliefs being expressed on this board. People here seem to think that (among other things):
> Publishers don't like eBooks
> Publishers don't like readers
> Writers are rich and greedy
> Writers don't like eBooks
> Writers don't like readers


This is such a gross generalization in itself i don't even know what to say! "People here" you say, are you referring to everyone on this thread, or on Kindleboards, or  From what I've seen on this site the opinions expressed are very diverse, just as the opinion of ebooks is from publishers and authors.


----------



## tchernabyelo

"People" does not mean "All people".  There are posts on the 26 pages of this thread that gave me the above impression.  There are certainly people talking about big-name authos hating ebooks and indicating that they do so (as with the publishers) out of greed.

As for "Are you stating that you think it is ok to pay $15 for a DRM locked ebook while the paperback sells for $7.99?" - I don't see anywhere in my original posting that makes any such implication.  Personally, no, I don't think so, but it wasn't part of, or relevant to, the point I was attempting to make.


----------



## Chad Winters

tchernabyelo said:


> "People" does not mean "All people". There are posts on the 26 pages of this thread that gave me the above impression. There are certainly people talking about big-name authos hating ebooks and indicating that they do so (as with the publishers) out of greed.
> 
> As for "Are you stating that you think it is ok to pay $15 for a DRM locked ebook while the paperback sells for $7.99?" - I don't see anywhere in my original posting that makes any such implication. Personally, no, I don't think so, but it wasn't part of, or relevant to, the point I was attempting to make.


Well, we are apparently on different planets because that is the biggest issue for me and many others in the whole thing. Numerous citations have been given where McMillan's idea of "variable pricing" is pricing the ebook above the DTB version.


----------



## TimonofAthens

tchernabyelo said:


> "People" does not mean "All people". There are posts on the 26 pages of this thread that gave me the above impression. There are certainly people talking about big-name authos hating ebooks and indicating that they do so (as with the publishers) out of greed.


You would have done better to actually quote these "people" then, as People can actually mean just about anything. I mean, how many posts actually said this here? Specifics are always helpful when making a point.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

tchernabyelo said:


> "People" does not mean "All people". There are posts on the 26 pages of this thread that gave me the above impression. There are certainly people talking about big-name authos hating ebooks and indicating that they do so (as with the publishers) out of greed.


I think you'll find that we are talking about authors such as J.K. Rowling who definitely does not approve of e-books. We have used her as an example in many discussions, never once saying that she is greedy that I am aware of. We just can't understand her antipathy towards e-book as she has given several different reasons at various times, which do not make sense to us.

It is certainly not "greedy" to keep a book from being kindleized because not doing so removes a source of income from both the author and the publisher. Can you just imagine how the Potter books would fly off the e-shelf if she ever agreed? Many people on this board would be at the head of the line (me, too), but speaking for myself, I wouldn't pay more than paperback price even for Potter.


----------



## mcl

tchernabyelo said:


> OK, what publishers like is making MONEY, because they are big corporations. The comments above about the "big 6" warned by being compared to the big accounting firms is kind of amusing - the accounting firms didn't magically go away, they actually coalesced into fewer and EVEN MORE POWERFUL ones. Which in general is not good for consumers - consumers benefit from CHOICE.


Choice, huh? Ok, let's see...there's a new book out. I can go to bookstore A, and buy it for $price. But wait, A's been forced into an agency model. I guess I can go to bookstore B, and...no, wait, they're an agent too. I could go to C and...no, same problem. I suppose I could buy the ebook but, no, wait, all the ebook copies of that title are also being sold under and agency model.

Wow, what great choice I have!

If you think that's not in the immediate future, you haven't been paying attention.



> Authors and publishers LOVE readers. The more readers they have, the better. It is going to take publishers a long time to come to terms with the ever-changing eBook and technological landscape, and they may not all handle this well. Historically, books have been a VERY unusual commodity in that the price is set by the produer, not the retailer (though of course MRSPs exist in other fields and can be overridden by bookshops as they are with other products). But most authors I know are very keen on eBooks because they are a new way to reach readers. However, they are not so keen on being paid less for their work, and all the talk of price points here misses the fact that the cost of publishing is still significant even without the cost of the physical paper book at the end of it.


No, authors and publishers love CUSTOMERS, not readers. Authors and publishers hate it when you buy a second-hand book, or read something at a library, or borrow a book from someone. Why? Because it doesn't put more money in their pocket.

And if authors are so keen on not beng paid less, why'd they bend over and grin when Macmillan revised their payouts down by 5% last year?



> Please, those of you on here who are so critical of the big publishers and of authors, and who think Amazon is "fighting your case" - Amazon is fighting AMAZON's case, and no other, and while superficially its stance on price may be appealing, you should consider what the longer-term ramifications might be before praising them to the hilt and considering everyone else involved to be nasty evil greedy people who hate readers.


Amazon may be looking out for its best interest, but Amazon's best interest comes closer to the actual customer's best interest than either the behavior of publishers (cf. Macmillan, Murdoch, etc.) or authors (Scalzi, all of Scalzi's slavish followers on his blog, several authors on this and other fora).

(And, to steal your own convenience, "authors" does not mean "all authors".)

_<Edited by Leslie for lanuage.>_


----------



## Tip10

tchernabyelo said:


> There seem to be some {snip}
> 
> However, they are not so keen on being paid less for their work, and all the talk of price points here misses the fact that the cost of publishing is still significant even without the cost of the physical paper book at the end of it.
> 
> {snip}


Doesn't the above conveniently overlook one very major detail in all of this??
And that is the fact that the publishers (and one supposes the authors) *WERE* being paid based upon the price points *THEY* determined -- the fact that Amazon was selling the book for less did not diminish what the publishers and authors were *ACTUALLY* being paid....


----------



## Chad Winters

Tip10 said:


> Doesn't the above conveniently overlook one very major detail in all of this??
> And that is the fact that the publishers (and one supposes the authors) *WERE* being paid based upon the price points *THEY* determined -- the fact that Amazon was selling the book for less did not diminish what the publishers and authors were *ACTUALLY* being paid....


Stop pointing out inconvenient facts!!! What do you think this is Fox News or something!


----------



## mcl

Tip10 said:


> Doesn't the above conveniently overlook one very major detail in all of this??
> And that is the fact that the publishers (and one supposes the authors) *WERE* being paid based upon the price points *THEY* determined -- the fact that Amazon was selling the book for less did not diminish what the publishers and authors were *ACTUALLY* being paid....


The publishers and authors were deathly afraid that Amazon would magically reduce the wholesale price the publisher was asking for at some unspecified point in a possible future.

So, they decided to not only raise the price, but take the fundamental right of retailers to set their own selling prices away from them. And now the other publishers are beginning to do the same thing. Not just with Amazon, but with the other online and B&M bookstores too, as their contracts come up for renewal.

Soon, it won't matter where you go: if you want a new book, you'll pay whatever price the publisher sets.

Sort of ironic, since this, more than anything, will likely cause an explosion in the secondary market, something they've been trying to kill off for years.


----------



## Leslie

As deb pointed out, this discussion has been going on for almost a week (in this thread) and we've managed to keep the tone polite and respectful. Let's keep that up, okay? I see we have a few newcomers joining the discussion and to that I say, great, and welcome. But I will also say the number one rule of KindleBoards is no personal attacks. Posts will be modded and users will be told why, privately. Thanks.

Leslie
Global Mod


----------



## Geoffrey

mcl said:


> Sort of ironic, since this, more than anything, will likely cause an explosion in the secondary market, something they've been trying to kill off for years.


Often times short term profits and/or stability works against a company's long term interests ... I've seen it happen in many different industries. I expect you're right, though ....


----------



## FSkornia

I think it was somewhere in this thread that someone questioned when Amazon will enter into the publishing business themselves. I just wanted to present this USA Today article as evidence that they have clearly entered the arena - now it adds another option (and a very ebook friendly one) to authors out there. http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2010-02-04-amazonbooks04_ST_N.htm


----------



## LindaW

FSkornia said:


> I think it was somewhere in this thread that someone questioned when Amazon will enter into the publishing business themselves. I just wanted to present this USA Today article as evidence that they have clearly entered the arena - now it adds another option (and a very ebook friendly one) to authors out there. http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2010-02-04-amazonbooks04_ST_N.htm


Honestly, I think it's great that authors have another choice. It seems to me that maybe publishers are afraid they will eventually go the way of the dodo. If authors can put their content out in digital format, more the better for them. I could be wrong here, since I don't have experience in this particular field, but I was always taught that it's better to cut out the middle man. For both the provider and the consumer.

With Facebook, Twitter and blogs an author can advertise their books for almost nothing - and then sell them digitally, whether via pdf or other format, or by using Amazon.

I would rather see a favorite author get 100% of my money, rather than the publisher getting the lion's share.


----------



## 911jason

FSkornia said:


> I think it was somewhere in this thread that someone questioned when Amazon will enter into the publishing business themselves. I just wanted to present this USA Today article as evidence that they have clearly entered the arena - now it adds another option (and a very ebook friendly one) to authors out there. http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2010-02-04-amazonbooks04_ST_N.htm


Great article, thanks for posting the link!


----------



## Shastastan

911jason said:


> Great article, thanks for posting the link!


Ditto here and thanks for something sounding positive for a change. While reading that article, I thought, "If it's risky for publishers to take on new/unknown authors, why not put it out in ebook form first and see how the sales go before putting out dtb books?" Just a thought.....


----------



## Forster

FSkornia said:


> I think it was somewhere in this thread that someone questioned when Amazon will enter into the publishing business themselves. I just wanted to present this USA Today article as evidence that they have clearly entered the arena - now it adds another option (and a very ebook friendly one) to authors out there. http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2010-02-04-amazonbooks04_ST_N.htm


It is a good article. When Amazon bumps the commission to Authors to 70% in June, how many established authors are going to seriously start looking at self-publishing and bypassing their old publishing houses? E-reader users may be in a minority right now as a percentage of actual readers, but as we account for more and more sales, the incentive for authors to jump ship in search of more lucrative commissions will be almost be unbearable.

I hope most of these authors manage to secure their e-book rights for their orphaned works, what a boon to both the readers and authors if these could be brought to market.


----------



## Chad Winters

I've got to say, if Amazon has lost and caved in on the McMillan thing.....they should put the books back up for sale, they have nothing to gain now by holding out except more ill feelings from authors.


----------



## TimonofAthens

LindaW said:


> Honestly, I think it's great that authors have another choice. It seems to me that maybe publishers are afraid they will eventually go the way of the dodo. If authors can put their content out in digital format, more the better for them. I could be wrong here, since I don't have experience in this particular field, but I was always taught that it's better to cut out the middle man. For both the provider and the consumer.


I think it also means that publishers will have to be a bit more active and scout out the talent if they want to stay on top. If an indie book (ebook or DT) does well and gets a following the publishers will need to act fast to be the first to get the rights, or if an indie gets public recognition from a celebrity, etc, or perhaps the rights end up being bought by a movie studio then every publisher will be jockeying for position. And things like that happen from someone reading just this type of article and looking for the books mentioned therein.


----------



## VictoriaP

Another look from another side--a literary agents blog: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/

The most recent entry has the latest letter from MacMillan to their authors.


----------



## Scheherazade

Heh, I just got an email from Books-a-Million "We Have Your MacMillan Titles + Coupons" so they're totally trying to take advantage of the situation.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

VictoriaP said:


> Another look from another side--a literary agents blog: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/
> 
> The most recent entry has the latest letter from MacMillan to their authors.


Know what treacle is? That letter from MacMillan was it.



Scheherazade said:


> Heh, I just got an email from Books-a-Million "We Have Your MacMillan Titles + Coupons" so they're totally trying to take advantage of the situation.


Can't blame them. I would be doing the same in their position. I've gotten plenty of bargains from them.


----------



## BTackitt

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_en_ot/us_books_amazon_macmillan

latest article I have seen. I might have missed if someone already posted it today.


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked

I think authors should get 75%, publishers 25%. Unless publishers decide to do actual proof-reading of ebooks, in which case I might increase their percentage to 30%.  

Mike
who is not an author


----------



## mistyd107

so did amazon cave and if so how long before the books are back on site anyone have a clue? Sorry I don't have time to go through the entire thread.


----------



## ElaineOK

VictoriaP said:


> Another look from another side--a literary agents blog: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/
> 
> The most recent entry has the latest letter from MacMillan to their authors.


Here is an author's take on that letter pointing out an interesting use of the phrase, "our intellectual property".
http://lynnabbey.com/blog/

Elaine
Norman, Oklahoma


----------



## LindaW

VictoriaP said:


> Another look from another side--a literary agents blog: http://pubrants.blogspot.com/
> 
> The most recent entry has the latest letter from MacMillan to their authors.


I e-mailed them over the weekend and got the same letter back from them. I responded once again - so let's see what they send now.


----------



## Guest

Shastastan said:


> Ditto here and thanks for something sounding positive for a change. While reading that article, I thought, "If it's risky for publishers to take on new/unknown authors, why not put it out in ebook form first and see how the sales go before putting out dtb books?" Just a thought.....


Because ebooks still account for only a tiny percentage of overall sales. And whether or not an author is a first time novelist or a seasoned veteran the actual costs and work involved are identical. You still have to edit the book, you still have to proofread, you still need cover designers and sales staff and marketing and all that stuff. It's actually CHEAPER to market a bestselling author because they already have a fan base.

Again, publishers still make the bulk of their money on sales to bookstores. 2,000 ebook sales is a great number to most people around here and would be a bestseller. The typical bookstore chain will preorder twice that many books for even a b-list author. As a publisher, you have to turn over your money as quickly as possible. A self-published author or a botique press can afford to wait a year or two to recoop their losses or make a profit because, as most people say around here "I'm not expecting to make money." But a publisher with thousands of employees NEEDS to make money, and you can't tie up your investment for a year or two hoping to recoop it.

The industry will evolve organically as publishers figure out how to intergrate ebooks into their catalogs and as more people embrace the digital market. But it's not as easy as waving a wand and saying "why don't they just do...fill in the blank." Of course, as a small press, I don't care if it takes the big publishers years to figure it out. I'd rather NOT be competing with their marketing machines in the digital marketplace.  Let them have the brick and mortar shops and leave my digital platforms alone!


----------



## Jeff

*Hachette Seeks to Change E-Book Pricing, Joining Macmillan*​


> By Greg Bensinger and Joseph Galante
> 
> Feb. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Lagardere SCA's Hachette Book Group said it would seek more flexibility in pricing of digital versions of its books, echoing a similar strategy from Macmillan in challenging retailer Amazon.com Inc.
> Hachette Chief Executive Officer David Young said in a memo yesterday to agents that the new pricing model will give the company freedom to sell more books in digital formats. Today, Amazon.com sets prices for many of the books its sells for its Kindle e-reader device.
> After removing Macmillan's books from its Web site, Amazon.com on Jan. 31 said it would accept the publisher's request to charge between $12.99 and $14.99 for new e-books, rather than the $9.99 set by the online merchant.
> The new plan "allows Hachette to make pricing decisions that are rational and reflect the value of our authors' works,'' Young said in the memo, which was provided by Hachette spokeswoman Sophie Cottrell.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-05/hachette-seeks-to-change-e-book-pricing-joining-macmillan.html


----------



## Birstel

A little off topic, but does anyone know when the Macmillan books will actually be back in the Kindle Store?  I was going to start buying the Wheel of Time books, but Amazon still says Eye of the World on Kindle is not available in the US.


----------



## Jeff

Birstel said:


> A little off topic, but does anyone know when the Macmillan books will actually be back in the Kindle Store? I was going to start buying the Wheel of Time books, but Amazon still says Eye of the World on Kindle is not available in the US.





> CEO John Sargent of Macmillan, which has been fighting Amazon over e-book prices, released a memo Thursday saying that a resolution was "near at hand."


----------



## drenee

I don't think I've heard any announcement about when all of the books will be posted again.  
Some of the books I've been watching have been coming up slowly.  
deb


----------



## skyblue

I am checking Amazon constantly for the return of The Tea Rose kindle edition.  I travel frequently and don't want to lug a big book with me.  Ironically the sequel, from a different publisher, is available in the Kindle edition.


----------



## Shastastan

bardsandsages said:


> Because ebooks still account for only a tiny percentage of overall sales. And whether or not an author is a first time novelist or a seasoned veteran the actual costs and work involved are identical. You still have to edit the book, you still have to proofread, you still need cover designers and sales staff and marketing and all that stuff. It's actually CHEAPER to market a bestselling author because they already have a fan base.
> 
> Again, publishers still make the bulk of their money on sales to bookstores. 2,000 ebook sales is a great number to most people around here and would be a bestseller. The typical bookstore chain will preorder twice that many books for even a b-list author. As a publisher, you have to turn over your money as quickly as possible. A self-published author or a botique press can afford to wait a year or two to recoop their losses or make a profit because, as most people say around here "I'm not expecting to make money." But a publisher with thousands of employees NEEDS to make money, and you can't tie up your investment for a year or two hoping to recoop it.
> 
> The industry will evolve organically as publishers figure out how to intergrate ebooks into their catalogs and as more people embrace the digital market. But it's not as easy as waving a wand and saying "why don't they just do...fill in the blank." Of course, as a small press, I don't care if it takes the big publishers years to figure it out. I'd rather NOT be competing with their marketing machines in the digital marketplace.  Let them have the brick and mortar shops and leave my digital platforms alone!


Sorry, Julie, I guess I over-simplified things or you might call it wishful thinking out loud.


----------



## drenee

skyblue said:


> I am checking Amazon constantly for the return of The Tea Rose kindle edition. I travel frequently and don't want to lug a big book with me. Ironically the sequel, from a different publisher, is available in the Kindle edition.


I got The Tea Rose a year ago and it's one of the books I paid 9.99 for. It was worth the price.
deb


----------



## skyblue

drenee said:


> I got The Tea Rose a year ago and it's one of the books I paid 9.99 for. It was worth the price.
> deb


Thanks, Deb! Now if only they could work out their differences with the publisher so I could order it for my Kindle!


----------



## drenee

After The Tea Rose is The Winter Rose.  It's on my K but I haven't read it.  My mom said it was very good also.
deb


----------



## skyblue

GOOD NEWS!  They reinstated The Tea Rose Kindle edition!  I downloaded it along with The Winter Rose.  I am thrilled!


----------



## ElaineOK

Do you remember what the Tea Rose was priced at before this brouhaha?  It is $9.99 now.

Elaine
Norman, OK


----------



## drenee

It's been 9.99 all along.  I paid 9.99 in Feb. '09.
deb


----------



## MamaProfCrash

The Robert Jordan books are $3 more then they were before the spat


----------



## LisaW.

Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy are back and (currently) priced at $6.39. I bought the final book yesterday figuring that in a month the price would go up.

Has anyone else found themselves buying more kindle books since this whole fiasco started? I've been buying various books from either Harper-Collins and Macmillan, as well as deeply discounted kindle books, figuring that the prices would become (what I consider) unreasonable, in March.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

LisaW. said:


> Has anyone else found themselves buying more kindle books since this whole fiasco started?


I didn't consciously go out and buy a bunch of books (though the thought occurred to me). But I've noticed I've been more prone to go look up some books I've had in mind that I would buy eventually, and go ahead and get them the past week. Mostly, but not entirely, books that were $9.99. I'm trying to put a stop to any new Kindle reading purchases outside of free ones and grabbing good ones out of the bargain books thread here. But self-discipline is hard!


----------



## SinCityReader

I do find my self buying more books since this whole fiasco started.  I didn't even recieve my kindle until friday (Feb 5th).  But I like to read books in order when I read a series.  So now I'm trying to buy as many in Sue Grafton Alphabet Series as possible.


----------



## Andra

ProfCrash said:


> The Robert Jordan books are $3 more then they were before the spat


I went out and tagged them today. I made up my own since it reflects more of my philosophy of purchasing: kindle version higher than print

I really want to do a series re-read but it looks like I'll be going back to the paper copies that I already own.


----------



## Forster

ProfCrash said:


> The Robert Jordan books are $3 more then they were before the spat


Yeah, pricing makes a whole lot of sense, a few of the books have been out for almost 20 years, new mass market paperback is priced at $6.99, used including shipping around $4, Kindle edition $9.99. That's going to generate a lot of e-book sales.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

I bought them. I read on my Kindle. I don't want to read the paper versions of them. They are too big and I like reading on the Kindle. To each their own.


----------



## loca

Forster said:


> Yeah, pricing makes a whole lot of sense, a few of the books have been out for almost 20 years, new mass market paperback is priced at $6.99, used including shipping around $4, Kindle edition $9.99. That's going to generate a lot of e-book sales.


Heh...At least somebody elses' pockets will be happy.


----------



## Shastastan

ProfCrash said:


> I bought them. I read on my Kindle. I don't want to read the paper versions of them. They are too big and I like reading on the Kindle. To each their own.


I even bought a few books that I already had in paperback because, like you, I like reading on the Kindle. I have blogs and some books with short stories as well as quite a variety of different types of books. If I get bored or have time constraints, I might read something other than my current novel. It's a great convenience, IMHO. I'm not stewing about the price increases even though I would rather they had not occured. I just read on Bufo Calvin's blog today that the British are releasing 65,000 19th century books for Kindle. I'm sure that I'll somehow manage to find a book of interest within those books, which I hear are going to be free.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Shastastan said:


> I even bought a few books that I already had in paperback because, like you, I like reading on the Kindle. I have blogs and some books with short stories as well as quite a variety of different types of books. If I get bored or have time constraints, I might read something other than my current novel. It's a great convenience, IMHO. I'm not stewing about the price increases even though I would rather they had not occured. I just read on Bufo Calvin's blog today that the British are releasing 65,000 19th century books for Kindle. I'm sure that I'll somehow manage to find a book of interest within those books, which I hear are going to be free.


65,000? I'll be in freebie hog heaven.


----------



## 911jason

Since it's pertinent to this conversation, I'll repost from another thread.

*Amazon and Random House; Sole Sane of the Insane?*

Wow, some bit of sanity from the publishing industry! Very nice to hear...








The only bright spot for Amazon, and Kindle owners, came from Madeline McIntosh, the President of Sales, Operations, and Digital for Random House. She pointed out that publishers "have no real experience at setting retail prices." She also revelaed that one of the reasons Random House had not been party to the iBook Store at launch was because of the pricing issues.

In regards to delayed releasing of ebooks, McIntosh said, "Our current policy is we release e-books at the same time as physical books," followed by "I haven't been convinced that it's good for the author or consumer to delay the release. My fear is that the consumer who has fully embraced the technology will buy another e-book that is available or lose interest altogether. What if I train the consumer that the best scenario is to get it free?"


----------



## VictoriaP

Linked from a link from a link from a link I found here earlier. LOL

http://delkytlar.livejournal.com/

Relevant post: http://delkytlar.livejournal.com/81497.html

This gentleman appears to be a part of MacMillan or to have significant contacts with their Digital division. An interesting, thoughtful read (even if I don't necessarily agree), and interesting commentary that follows it. I'm bookmarking him to add to those I'll be watching closely in coming weeks.


----------



## 911jason

I agree that it's an interesting read, but how do all those expenses translate to charging more for an e-book than for the same book in paperback?


----------



## Toby

I bought books 5-15 of the Stephanie Plum series. I now have all the books in this series. That's 11 books!! That's the 1st time I ever bought so many K books. I didn't know if my Amazon's Chase Visa would think that with all the charges, that someone had stolen my CC, so I divided the books to buy in the last day of this month's closing statement & the 1st day of next months statement. I had been feeling so anxious about this, because I really don't know when the prices will go up & if it still is going to go up. I just didn't want to pay over double the price. Now, because of this, the books that I had planned to buy next will have to wait. I was so looking forward to getting them, too, but I am way over my book allowance.


----------



## VictoriaP

911jason said:


> I agree that it's an interesting read, but how do all those expenses translate to charging more for an e-book than for the same book in paperback?


I don't think they do, personally. I think that's more evidence that MacMillan has no interest in promoting ebooks. It seems pretty clear to me that they feel it threatens their primary business--pushing paper.

But I did find it interesting that he was able to CONFIRM with DigitalMac that the price of a given ebook was SUPPOSED to be higher than the paperback.

From the comments (inserts in parentheses are mine):



> She (representative from the digital division) says that the current list price should be $14 on that Kushiel title. (Title is $6.99 in mass market pb.) I'm not going to debate pricing schemes with her right now, but I expect I'll have to try to get an understanding of why we are doing this. It may be related to this new pricing policy.


I was also pleased to see that he was going to try and find out why it would be this way. I'd love to see the spin they put on justifying it, because I'm not at a point yet where I believe they'll take a look at it and reprice the ebook down to where it belongs.


----------



## JCBeam

I thought of buying a bunch of books, but refrained from doing so.  I did buy Sarah's Key, since most folks raved about it; which I found to still be (or put back to be) $9.99.


Juanita


----------



## Gertie Kindle

911jason said:


> Since it's pertinent to this conversation, I'll repost from another thread.
> 
> *Amazon and Random House; Sole Sane of the Insane?*
> 
> Wow, some bit of sanity from the publishing industry! Very nice to hear...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only bright spot for Amazon, and Kindle owners, came from Madeline McIntosh, the President of Sales, Operations, and Digital for Random House. She pointed out that publishers "have no real experience at setting retail prices." She also revelaed that one of the reasons Random House had not been party to the iBook Store at launch was because of the pricing issues.
> 
> In regards to delayed releasing of ebooks, McIntosh said, "Our current policy is we release e-books at the same time as physical books," followed by "I haven't been convinced that it's good for the author or consumer to delay the release. My fear is that the consumer who has fully embraced the technology will buy another e-book that is available or lose interest altogether. What if I train the consumer that the best scenario is to get it free?"


Good for Random House. At least someone isn't letting Steve Jobs lead them around by the nose.


----------



## Birstel

That's funny just checked amazon and Books 2, 3, and 4 of the Wheel of Time are back up (at 9.99 I love paying 3 bucks more than paperback), but Eye of the World still isn't back yet.  Like I'm going to start re-reading a series at book 2!


----------



## Rasputina

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Good for Random House. At least someone isn't letting Steve Jobs lead them around by the nose.


Right, we want Amazon leading people by the nose.


----------



## RiddleMeThis

Amazons motives, while they may be purely to benefit Amazon and may Not be done for the customer, are Much closer to what I as the consumer want. So for now I would be happy to follow Amazon


----------



## 911jason

The majority of us non-Apple-fanboys would much rather have Amazon leading the publishers around by the nose than Steve Jobs. All you have to do is watch that interview with his smug little proclamation that Amazon & Apple's pricing will be in line with each other (read - higher) when the iPad is released.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

Rasputina said:


> Right, we want Amazon leading people by the nose.


Yup.



RiddleMeThis said:


> Amazons motives, while they may be purely to benefit Amazon and may Not be done for the customer, are Much closer to what I as the consumer want. So for now I would be happy to follow Amazon


Agreed.


----------



## Rasputina

RiddleMeThis said:


> Amazons motives, while they may be purely to benefit Amazon and may Not be done for the customer, are Much closer to what I as the consumer want. So for now I would be happy to follow Amazon


yea, my point was only that the issue has nothing to do with an aversion to the concept of being lead around by the nose and solely with who is doing the leading and if they agree with you ( general you here).


----------



## Rasputina

911jason said:


> The majority of us non-Apple-fanboys would much rather have Amazon leading the publishers around by the nose than Steve Jobs. All you have to do is watch that interview with his smug little proclamation that Amazon & Apple's pricing will be in line with each other (read - higher) when the iPad is released.


you mean the majority of us Amazon kindle fan boys want Amazon to be leading everyone around by the nose, and are irked that Jobs didn't fall in line. I figured that out about 2 weeks ago when this started.


----------



## mlewis78

Considering that Steve Jobs interests are not favoring readers, it would be best to follow Amazon.  I realize that some day Amazon's interests may not be in our best interests, but for now, they are and they have been for a long, long time.


----------



## RiddleMeThis

I won't speak for anyone but myself but I personally don't care WHO is leading as long as their goals are in line with mine. If Steve Jobs had come out with a better plan that helped me out I would follow his lead gladly. 

He failed at that and thus I will follow and support Amazon.


----------



## Gertie Kindle

mlewis78 said:


> Considering that Steve Jobs interests are not favoring readers, it would be best to follow Amazon. I realize that some day Amazon's interests may not be in our best interests, but for now, they are and they have been for a long, long time.


So far, Amazon understands that happy customers keep you in business. Gee, what a concept.


----------



## Chad Winters

Yeah, I've already seen several Tor books I was interested in now come in $7 paperbacks and $14 ebook versions. So MacMillan's "variable pricing" seems to only go with ebooks being higher


----------



## Michael R. Hicks

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> Yeah, I've already seen several Tor books I was interested in now come in $7 paperbacks and $14 ebook versions. So MacMillan's "variable pricing" seems to only go with ebooks being higher


That is just SOOOO totally outrageous!!


----------



## Geoffrey

I took the 104 books on my Amazon kindle wish list, put them onto a spreadsheet and looked up the publisher, current cost and lowest pbook costs .. it was illuminating. First, it was only my list of books available from Amazon.

Of the big six, costs broke down like this:

*Publisher Books < pbook > pbook = pbook*
Hatchett 1 1
HarperCollins 7 6 1
Macmillan 8 3 4 1
Penguin 13 12 1
Random 33 30 1 2
Simon&Schuster 7 6 1
Other 35 32 2 1

So, the Macmillan books I'd like to read are 50% likely to be outside of my price point - which is to say they're not cheaper than a pbook. On the other hand, I apparently am not interested in many of their books ... and over half are either Random House or other publishers ... So to that degree I think this particular corporate war is only academic within my world ... but it does show me that I need to pay attention to the costs. I think I'll keep my list up.


----------



## HappyGuy

It will be interesting to see what happens with the iPad when virtually no one buys books for it. I mean, sure there will be a number, but I expect it will be much lower than Mr. Jobs and Co. expect them to be. They may control the tunes market, but I seriously doubt they'll control the eBook market.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Especially if they keep the Kindle App and the other e-reader aps that they have.


----------



## The Hooded Claw

FearNot said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens with the iPad when virtually no one buys books for it. I mean, sure there will be a number, but I expect it will be much lower than Mr. Jobs and Co. expect them to be. They may control the tunes market, but I seriously doubt they'll control the eBook market.


It's an expensive way to read books, for sure. I agree that I don't think it will be a big success as a pure reader, but if it sells like the iPod, and even a small number of the purchasers shell out for just a few books, it could generate some significant sales. I wouldn't be shocked if it distracts some of the light readers from Kindle or Nook or one of the other specialized readers. But I do think heavy readers will tend to be drawn to eInk.


----------



## cc1013

JCBeam said:


> I thought of buying a bunch of books, but refrained from doing so. I did buy Sarah's Key, since most folks raved about it; which I found to still be (or put back to be) $9.99.
> 
> Juanita


It looks like the price of Sarah's Key for the Kindle was just dropped to $7.96 which now matches the price of the paperback version. I wonder if Macmillan is thinking twice about pricing the ebook formats higher than the paperback.


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## Leslie

cc1013 said:


> It looks like the price of Sarah's Key for the Kindle was just dropped to $7.96 which now matches the price of the paperback version. I wonder if Macmillan is thinking twice about pricing the ebook formats higher than the paperback.


Well I'll be. Interesting. Maybe I should just go ahead and buy this book, even though I haven't read the sample.

L


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## Selcien

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> Yeah, I've already seen several Tor books I was interested in now come in $7 paperbacks and $14 ebook versions. So MacMillan's "variable pricing" seems to only go with ebooks being higher


Um, no, what you're seeing are the old prices, the new pricing has yet to go into effect. I realize that people are pissed off over this but it's rather stupid to go to Amazon's site right now to look for prices to complain about as any complaints would be about the old pricing structure, not the new pricing structure.

I'm not sure when, exactly, the new pricing scheme is scheduled to start, but based on how the scheme is set up I think that "list prices" should disappear entirely from any e-book using Macmillan's "agency" scheme.


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## Rasputina

FearNot said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens with the iPad when virtually no one buys books for it.


Why? It's primary purpose for existing isn't as an ereader, there are over 100,000 apps in the app store. ibooks will just be 1 of them. It won't make or break the product. BTW, there have been over 1 billion apps downloaded from the itunes app store and they are all compatible with ipad. Clearly it's doing fine.


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## Rasputina

Selcien said:


> Um, no, what you're seeing are the old prices, the new pricing has yet to go into effect. I realize that people are p*ssed off over this but it's rather stupid to go to Amazon's site right now to look for prices to complain about as any complaints would be about the old pricing structure, not the new pricing structure.
> 
> I'm not sure when, exactly, the new pricing scheme is scheduled to start, but based on how the scheme is set up I think that "list prices" should disappear entirely from any e-book using Macmillan's "agency" scheme.


I could have sworn that the original Amazon announcement when they yanked the books stated the new contract was to go into effect in March.


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## VictoriaP

Rasputina said:


> I could have sworn that the original Amazon announcement when they yanked the books stated the new contract was to go into effect in March.


The original MacMillan statement to the authors said March; I can't remember what Amazon's said.



Selcien said:


> Um, no, what you're seeing are the old prices, the new pricing has yet to go into effect. I realize that people are p*ssed off over this but it's rather stupid to go to Amazon's site right now to look for prices to complain about as any complaints would be about the old pricing structure, not the new pricing structure.
> 
> I'm not sure when, exactly, the new pricing scheme is scheduled to start, but based on how the scheme is set up I think that "list prices" should disappear entirely from any e-book using Macmillan's "agency" scheme.


One would think so, however a number of us were tracking certain books long before the pricing war started, waiting for the prices to come down before we'd buy. And indeed, there are quite a few MacMillan books that have "returned" to Amazon with higher, or even significantly higher prices than before they were yanked. Others that have returned are still fluctuating day by day.

Seems to me there's at least a valid possibility that MacMillan is indeed already dictating the sale prices on their books.


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## mlewis78

Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel is still 9.99 now that it's back up on Amazon.  I haven't read my sample yet but wonder if I should buy it before the price goes up.


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## Richard in W.Orange

There is (and I'm a bit off topic) a very interesting read in Newsweek this week regarding how we're going from 'one' jailer to another with our cellular devices.

First the carriers had us locked down and now the OS/Hardware guys do. Worth a look. 

And now you want a link but I read it on the paper subscription so I don't know (sorry)


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## Selcien

Rasputina said:


> I could have sworn that the original Amazon announcement when they yanked the books stated the new contract was to go into effect in March.


But that could be anywhere from the first day of that month to the last day, the only thing that's clear is that it'll be before the iPad launches.



VictoriaP said:


> The original MacMillan statement to the authors said March; I can't remember what Amazon's said.
> 
> One would think so, however a number of us were tracking certain books long before the pricing war started, waiting for the prices to come down before we'd buy. And indeed, there are quite a few MacMillan books that have "returned" to Amazon with higher, or even significantly higher prices than before they were yanked. Others that have returned are still fluctuating day by day.
> 
> Seems to me there's at least a valid possibility that MacMillan is indeed already dictating the sale prices on their books.


There is absolutely no possibility that it's Macmillan as they cannot change what they've already agreed to.

This is entirely on Amazon's end and I think has to do with them putting the books back up, it seems that whatever price adjustments they made before taking the books off have to be redone.


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## Geoffrey

Selcien said:


> There is absolutely no possibility that it's Macmillan as they cannot change what they've already agreed to.
> 
> This is entirely on Amazon's end and I think has to do with them putting the books back up, it seems that whatever price adjustments they made before taking the books off have to be redone.


You may or may not be correct with your assumption. However, based on prices I looked yesterday, I will not be buying any of those books where the ebook cost is more than the pbook cost - regardless where 'fault' lays. Now that I have my spreadsheet set up, I plan on keeping it updated on a fairly regular basis so I should see whether different publishers move away from models I can support and make my decisions accordingly.


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## cc1013

As mentioned before, I've been watching the pricing of Sarah's Key.  Yesterday, the Kindle version dropped from $9.99 to match the paperback price at $7.96.  Today, the Kindle price remains at $7.96, but the paperback version increased to $8.37.  These price changes are enough to drive a same person crazy!  At the same time, I'm happy to see that the ebook price is (even slightly) below the paperback version.  Also of note, the price of the B&N ebook also dropped to $7.96 (I believe it was $9.99 before).


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## cc1013

One more interesting note....B&N no longer has many of the Stephanie Plum novels by Janet Evanovich available in ebook format.  I wonder if B&N and Macmillan are negotiating as we speak?


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## skyblue

cc1013 said:


> One more interesting note....B&N no longer has many of the Stephanie Plum novels by Janet Evanovich available in ebook format. I wonder if B&N and Macmillan are negotiating as we speak?


They don't have The Tea Rose in ebook edition either!


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## Neekeebee

Geoffrey said:


> I took the 104 books on my Amazon kindle wish list, put them onto a spreadsheet and looked up the publisher, current cost and lowest pbook costs .. it was illuminating. First, it was only my list of books available from Amazon.
> 
> Of the big six, costs broke down like this:
> 
> *Publisher Books < pbook > pbook = pbook*
> Hatchett 1 1
> HarperCollins 7 6 1
> Macmillan 8 3 4 1
> Penguin 13 12 1
> Random 33 30 1 2
> Simon&Schuster 7 6 1
> Other 35 32 2 1
> 
> So, the Macmillan books I'd like to read are 50% likely to be outside of my price point - which is to say they're not cheaper than a pbook. On the other hand, I apparently am not interested in many of their books ... and over half are either Random House or other publishers ... So to that degree I think this particular corporate war is only academic within my world ... but it does show me that I need to pay attention to the costs. I think I'll keep my list up.


Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting!



cc1013 said:


> One more interesting note....B&N no longer has many of the Stephanie Plum novels by Janet Evanovich available in ebook format. I wonder if B&N and Macmillan are negotiating as we speak?


That's strange...wasn't Fictionwise (owned by B&N) giving 100% rebate on Evanovich's books just a couple of days ago?

N


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## Selcien

Geoffrey said:


> You may or may not be correct with your assumption.


If Macmillan could control the pricing with the old contract they would never have had to implement an agency system, therefor the only way the old contract could be changed so that they could control the pricing was if Amazon agreed to it, and why go to the bother when Amazon agreed to the new contract which will start very soon?

Much more likely that the process of putting the books back up resulted in the prices going back up as well, and that Amazon simply needs people to point out the problems that have come up (includes missing ebooks) so that they can correct them.



> I will not be buying any of those books where the ebook cost is more than the pbook cost - regardless where 'fault' lays.


I think most people feel the same way.

I'm expecting prices that will match the cheapest paper option, I'm also expecting a much more stable pricing structure (I really really hate the bouncing price crap, give me a price that starts as high as it's ever going to go and always goes lower from there.) I'm also thinking that a pricing range of $5.99 to $15 will work out better 'cause it gives mainstream publishers room to work with, and it gives Indies the $5.99 and less all to themselves, if everything was $9.99 or less I think it would be a bit cramped.



Neekeebee said:


> That's strange...wasn't Fictionwise (owned by B&N) giving 100% rebate on Evanovich's books just a couple of days ago?
> 
> N


Yes they were, very tempting too but I managed to resist. They still have the books available and after a quick check I see that they're available at B&N now, so whatever it was it was clearly temporary.


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## Chad Winters

Slightly off topic: Ben Bova wrote "Cyberbooks" as satire of the publishing industry in the 80s and how they would react to ebooks. 

Here is his intro:
----------------------------------
Introduction to Cyberbooks
I've been writing science fiction long enough so that some of my fiction has become fact. Take Cyberbooks, for example. When I wrote this novel, in the late 1980s, electronic books were nothing more than a glimmer in the eyes of a few engineers. Today they are being peddled in shopping malls and catalogues.

But predicting a technological innovation is easy. What makes Cyberbooks interesting, to me, is the way the novel depicts the book publishing industry's reaction to the technological innovation.

The truth is, you see, that Cyberbooks is a satire of the New York-based book publishing industry. The novel came about because Tom Doherty, publisher of Tor Books, enjoyed my earlier satirical novel, The Starcrossed. "You should do a novel about the publishing industry," he insisted. "I could tell you stories!"

Well,everybody in the business has hair-raising (or stomach-turning) stories to tell about the publishing industry. I have a few myself. Many of them have been woven into the warp an woof of Cyberbooks.

For Years, young wannabe writers who've read Cyberbooks would ask me tearfully, "The industry in New York isn't as bad as you paint it in your novel, is it?

"No of course not," I always assure them. "It's worse."
----------------------------

You can now get it as an ebook at Baen.com in his anthology/omnibus of sci-fi humour "Laugh Lines" http://www.webscription.net/p-769-laugh-lines.aspx for $6.00

I purchased it last year in the Webscription bundle which comes with many other books for $15.00

Hats off to Teleread for reminding me 
http://www.teleread.org/2002/07/09/cyberbooks-a-satire-with-lessons-for-e-book-boosters/


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