# New authors - almost everything you need, you can do free



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

First book, not sure it will make you a bundle of money, don't have a lot to spend anyway?

Here are a few tips.

You don't need a fancy program to write your book. Word.docs work just fine.
Spend time learning how to make a free website (Google Sites are free). You'll need to know how to make corrections and additions anyway, once you start churning out more books.
Formatting? Draft 2 Digital will do that for you for free. 
Uploading your book? Don't let anyone do that for you. They'll have access to your password and bank account information if you do. Besides, publishing is a breeze.
Cover art? Search for free cover art, find a picture, download it, and then use Paint to add your title, etc. You can always buy inexpensive cover art and let the artist add the title, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on it. Changing your cover art after the book is published is fast and easy. Beautiful cover art may attract attention, but if you don't have a bestselling novel behind it, you're wasting money -- and you won't know if it is a bestseller for a few months at least.

What have I forgotten? 

Marti


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

I have to disagree about the cover. I wouldn't even look at a book that had that kind of cover (unless it was non-fiction that was highly recommended by other people) because I would assume the author didn't give a crap, so why give a crap about reading it. It doesn't have to be a ground-breaking design, but it at least needs to look clean and professional and convey the genre. You can get that for <$100.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Martitalbott said:


> First book, not sure it will make you a bundle of money, don't have a lot to spend anyway?
> 
> Here are a few tips.
> 
> Cover art? Search for free cover art, find a picture, download it, and then use Paint to add your title, etc. You can always buy inexpensive cover art and let the artist add the title, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on it. Changing your cover art after the book is published is fast and easy. Beautiful cover art may attract attention, but if you don't have a bestselling novel behind it, you're wasting money -- and you won't know if it is a bestseller for a few months at least.


I agree with the first part of this. A lousy cover will almost guarantee a book never sells. A decent pre-made cover can be purchased for $25-50.

Editing. Don't publish without it. You may not be able to afford a professional, but find someone (preferably multiple someones) with decent English skills to go through your book and help you clean it up. There are a lot of techniques for self-editing. I have yet to see anyone who edits professionally do it for their own book.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> What have I forgotten?
> 
> Marti


Proofreading at the very very least!


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

paranormal_kitty said:


> I have to disagree about the cover. I wouldn't even look at a book that had that kind of cover (unless it was non-fiction that was highly recommended by other people) because I would assume the author didn't give a crap, so why give a crap about reading it. It doesn't have to be a ground-breaking design, but it at least needs to look clean and professional and convey the genre. You can get that for <$100.


Of course, cheap looks cheap, but spending a little time on learning to construct a new cover can be done for free and look swell. The point is, you don't need to spend money if you're willing to invest the time. There are several free photo editors online that work great especially for sizing a picture.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> Proofreading at the very very least!


I was reading a thread on Facebook where authors say they do not pay proofreaders. I always have. Do you think proofreaders should be paid?


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Martitalbott said:


> I was reading a thread on Facebook where authors say they do not pay proofreaders. I always have. Do you think proofreaders should be paid?


Are you confusing proofreader for betareaders? Proofreading is hard work. I don't know anyone one would proofread a novel for free.


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## DmGuay (Aug 17, 2016)

What you do and don't pay for depends on your background and skills.

For instance, I'm pretty good at copyediting and proofing. I once worked for a book publisher and as a magazine editor doing this. I also have 15 years in journalism with copy editing/style manual experience. So for me, I can do a decent job of this on my own.

I can also format an ebook without too much trouble.

I have graphic design experience, (I once designed display ads for the Employment Guide!), so I can make
promo graphics and use smart objects in Photoshop to put my book on mock-ups. *BUT* I am *crap* at covers. So I will always always pay for covers. ALWAYS!!

Do what you can reasonably do, and do well, for yourself to save money. But, most certainly pay for the things you can't do well.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2017)

Martitalbott said:


> Cover art? Search for free cover art, find a picture, download it, and then use Paint to add your title, etc. You can always buy inexpensive cover art and let the artist add the title, but I wouldn't spend a fortune on it. Changing your cover art after the book is published is fast and easy. Beautiful cover art may attract attention, but if you don't have a bestselling novel behind it, you're wasting money -- and you won't know if it is a bestseller for a few months at least.


This advice is a bit dangerous.

1. There is very little "free" art online that is available for commercial use. Unless you are well-versed in navigating these so-called "free" sites and know that they are actually have the right to offer the images, you open yourself up to problems. Many people have been burned by using what they thought was "free" art only to discover later that the real artist never authorized the use.
2. No, you really can't just slap a title on the image and call it day. Cover design is an art. And Paint will often save images at a low-resolution that might be ok for digital, but won't be high enough for print. 
3. Your cover is never a waste of money. I'm not saying you need to spend $500 on the cover of an ebook, but it is an important investment because it is your most prominent marketing tool. Heck, some sites won't even approve your ad if the cover is not up to par. A poor quality cover will often deter potential customers.

There is a site called PicMonkey that I use for a lot of cover manipulation. I have a subscription, which is a whole $33 a year, that I have been using instead of an expensive software program. It comes with tons of open source usable fonts, filters, and editing tools. It is a valid business expense I can deduct on my taxes. Storyblocks.com (formerly graphicstock) has probably the most generous licensing terms in the industry and is only $100 a year for unlimited access to their images. If you are publishing at any sort of volume, the cost is more than fair.

Note: probably not the best site for romance/erotica authors. Not a lot of live model images of real usefulness in that regard and their search functionality sucks. But they have a lot of cool surrealist and abstract images, backgrounds, and spot art.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I think commenteers on this thread are in danger of focusing so hard on the details that they're missing the OP's broader message.

Was my Blackberry-snapped photo of a pint of beer and a notebook in a pub garden with frame and cover lines added by Gimp the best way to introduce my writing to the world? Maybe not, but I did OK. And when I did get the cover redone by a Penguin Random House designer... the sales dried up overnight.


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## Astro (Jul 4, 2017)

Draft 2 Digital isn't free. They format for free and after they take 15% of the net royalties.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2017)

Martitalbott said:


> First book, not sure it will make you a bundle of money, don't have a lot to spend anyway?
> 
> Here are a few tips.
> 
> ...


Sweet Zombie Jesus! I....Nope! Not getting suckered in.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

*tl;dr: Bootstrapping is AWESOME, but remember that you get what you pay for, time is money, and it takes money to make money.*

I love the spirit of the OP. I myself am in the midst of bootstrapping just about everything I can! And I think it's really valuable to have this conversation come up from time to time, so that aspiring writers aren't scared away by "you must spend $5k to publish" talk, or suckered into buying services they don't need. But I would add the following thoughts:

Bootstrapping everything yourself for at least one title is, in my opinion, an invaluable exercise, if for no other reason than that you walk through every step of the production line at least once. *But keep in mind that you do get what you pay for.* Making your own cover makes a lot of sense if you have a decent eye and you are prepared to spend a lot of time working out typography, contrast, proportions, etc. in a free program like paint.net or GIMP (I wouldn't rely solely on MSpaint, if that was what the OP meant, but that's my preference. I like all the effects available elsewhere, especially for typography. I made all my own covers except for that anthology I'm in--see sig). But if you really don't have the eye, or the time or patience, then you're asking for a shoddy cover by doing it yourself. So there's absolutely a trade-off there. And with a handful of exceptions, the best bootstrapped cover will, in my limited observation, rival premades, but not the high-end custom stuff. There's a reason you pay $500-$1,000 or more for a really gorgeous custom illustrated cover, and it isn't inflation.  I'm pretty darn proud of my covers, but I have no delusions about them being "as good as" the good stuff. They're bespoke, simple as that.

Someone else's eyes is something you can't duplicate on your own. 
If you're fortunate enough to have a wife/husband/partner with editing experience, who will do it for free or for favors, good on you. Otherwise... you're gambling. And, yeah, your gamble might pay off, a la Michael Anderle and his workshop of readers. But it might not.

FB Ads and AMS Ads = Marketing without ads on social media. 
I get it, PPC ads are expensive to learn how to use. All that experimenting. Blech. But let's not bury our heads in the sand and pretend that people aren't doing really well by keeping their books high in the rankings with paid ads, or that we can do just as well, as a rule, by plugging to friends and followers ourselves. Check out Michael Cooper's book _HELP! My Facebook Ads Suck_. If you'd rather spend time than money at first, see what he has to see here on the SFF Marketing Podcast:
http://www.marketingsff.com/mastering-facebook-advertising-for-authors/
and here on the Sell More Books Show:
http://sellmorebooksshow.com/episode-183-bookfunnel-direct-sales-hurricane-relief-and-facebook-ads-with-michael-cooper/
I'll be spending money on my books for the first time when I make my first foray into the world of FB ads in about a month. Wish me luck...

OP forgot to mention blurb/description writing, which is essential, I believe, to hooking a reader. OMG, have you seen this Chris Fox video on his big space fantasy / military fantasy hit? Look at the hook in his blurb. That is some craft, son. 




OP also forgot mailing list / newsletter, another invaluable resource, according to conventional wisdom. But a handful of providers let you do this for free up to a certain number of subscribers. I'm on mailchimp and haven't had to start paying just yet.

*Happily, there are places you can crowdsource a lot of stuff*. Join a writing critique group if you need developmental editing but can't spring the cash. Post cover and blurb drafts HERE on Kboards; in my experience, other authors are often very generous with their time and thoughts, and you might make some excellent professional connections just by reaching out for a little help. But enter into these "cash-free" relationships with lots of goodwill. Be ready not only to invest time tweaking your own stuff, but critiquing the work of others as well. Be a good neighbor. You know, like Jake. From State Farm.

A brief caveat: I don't know about all of you, but my time is also worth something. Any time I take to write, design a cover, draft up a NL, or post to KBoards  is time away usually from things I need to get done, not time away from zoning out with Netflix. Good for you if you have leisure time you can trade for craft time. But even then, consider the energy deficit you may accrue. *Time is money*, so to some extant, saying you can do something for free by spending a hundred hours on it is a load of ballhooey. Pardon my Texan.

And, lastly, just because you _can_ bootstrap this stuff, doesn't mean you necessarily _should_. You have to take your own artistic and career goals into consideration, and be realistic about what you want to accomplish and what it will take to do so. You want one soda? Great. Put a buck and a half in the machine. You want ten sodas? You need more than a buck and a half. And let's not neglect that other business axiom, *it takes money to make money.* Because while you certainly can put out a book or ten by spending very little cash if that's what you want to do, and you MIGHT hit the jackpot and make cash from it, it's undeniable that there are people are putting a lot of money in and getting a lot more out, whether by bloating up huge NL lists, floating their books on a wave of FB or AMS ads, or paying to have the best of the best in every line of the production chain. Money makes money.

There's my two cents. Bootstrap what you can, pay for what you have to, and balance your expectations on what you've put in.


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## Catherine Lea (Jul 16, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> What have I forgotten?
> 
> Marti
> 
> Editing, editing and editing.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2017)

Martitalbott said:


> I was reading a thread on Facebook where authors say they do not pay proofreaders. I always have. Do you think proofreaders should be paid?


I think anyone who works on a for-profit project for you deserves to be paid.

Publishing is a business. It should be run like one.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

I still have to figure out how to work my way around free marketing.. other than that I picked up the rest pretty quick.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Editing indeed. New authors are far more dependent on good editors than veterans, and chances are they don't have the knowledge and experience required to self edit. Not to mention the fact that authors tend to overlook their own mistakes because they know what they _intended_ to write.

A cheap proofreader might find most of the typos but won't help a new author become a better writer.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> Not to mention the fact that authors tend to overlook their own mistakes because they know what they _intended_ to write.


I swear, I am great at editing other people's stuff, but if I ever published my own work before my proofreader went through it, people would think I was illiterate precisely for this reason!


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Which is not free and shouldn't be. )

Ah, the comment I was quoting was about editing.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

alawston said:


> I think commenteers on this thread are in danger of focusing so hard on the details that they're missing the OP's broader message.
> 
> Was my Blackberry-snapped photo of a pint of beer and a notebook in a pub garden with frame and cover lines added by Gimp the best way to introduce my writing to the world? Maybe not, but I did OK. And when I did get the cover redone by a Penguin Random House designer... the sales dried up overnight.


Ouch! - I mean about sales drying up.
My first cover art was a horse on a blue background. I still love that cover.


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

I agree that many new authors can publish on a shoestring and get away with it.  You absolutely can do, or learn to do, most of it on your own.  At this point, I have an editor. That's it. I made my Wordpress blog my webpage and started a Facebook Author Page.  I write on word, learned to format myself, upload myself, and make my own covers.  My covers are all right and I'm getting better as I go along.  I have quite a bit of art background.  Learning how to manipulate images on the computer is a different thing entirely, but I'm getting there.  An author made cover does not have to look like a homemade cover.  When I can afford it, I'll get a cover designer.  Until then, other than the editor, my production team is a one-person show.

Is that best practices? No.  But you can do it if you have no other choice.  If you can't make a passable cover, look for a friend who can or buy an inexpensive pre-made.  Your cover will absolutely effect your sales.  That thing about not judging a book by its cover is about people, not books.  Everyone will judge your book by its cover, lol.  First thing I would spend money on is a good editor or proofreader.  Writer's don't see all of their own mistakes, no matter how careful they are. Your time is better spent writing the next book rather than reading backwards or out loud in order to try to find every typo.  Sure, do it if you have to, but if you have the money, spend it on editing. Next, get that cover situation sorted.  After that, if you're making more money, think about jobbing some other things out so you have more time to write.

Just my opinion, of course.  Everyone has to make up their own mind about what it most important to them.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> I was reading a thread on Facebook where authors say they do not pay proofreaders. I always have. Do you think proofreaders should be paid?


Yes. Most definitely get a professional.

My first little novella was published in 2013. It was 15k words and I released it without having it edited or proofed, mainly as an experiment to learn about self-publishing. The only thing I spent a single penny on was the cover. It cost me $100 and I sold some clothes on ebay to pay for it. But... then I got some bad reviews because of typos and I learned pretty fast that I needed do have that at the very least. So I sold some shoes, and for $30 I was able to get my 15k proofed. The reviews instantly improved from 3 stars to 4.5 stars.

Apart from the occasional Freebooksy, I've never spent another penny on that book. It's now a free first-in-series of 8 books and it still gets around 50 - 75 downloads a day on Amazon.

So, if I were telling someone to how to publish for next to nothing I would still say proofreading was the most important thing to spend your money on.

Covers less so (though I am not belittling their importance), especially if you have an artistic eye (which I don't btw). Go on to YouTube and Derek Murphy has some great videos on how to make really nice covers for $1.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I agree with the other posters. There is no reason to publish a book with a bad or even mediocre cover. You can find a nice premade for under $100, and often under $50.

If you have design skills, my all means DIY. (I'm making my own cover right now. It will not be as good as my other covers, but it will be good enough). But most people don't have any design skills and most homemade covers doom a book to never sell. Why publish a book that isn't going to sell?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Covers:

I make most of my own covers since moving from trad to self-publishing. (Three covers in my signature were made by pros.) 

For my own designs I post samples here for review and let the members rip them to shreds. That exercise always results in a much better cover--to my eyes, at least.

Look at the covers of other works in your genre to get ideas. And when you assess the advice of your peers, look at their covers. Do you like them?

You can't please everyone.

Try everything they suggest and post new versions.

If they don't like your fonts--they never like your fonts--ask for the names of fonts they think would work better. Sometimes that request is met with a stony silence. 

If you can find pre-made covers that you like, and if they are affordable, that's a good way to go. I don't often find ones I like. But it's not because of the cost. You can pay more for the license to use an image than you'll pay for a pre-made. Pays your money, takes your choice.

--> MAKE SURE YOU HAVE PERMISSION. <--

It's not for everyone. Many authors don't want to spend time on work that a pro can do better. And many other authors don't have the discretionary capital to pay for the work of the pros. I do it because I enjoy the creative aspects of this profession. And because I'm cheap.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Yes. Most definitely get a professional.
> 
> So, if I were telling someone to how to publish for next to nothing I would still say proofreading was the most important thing to spend your money on.
> 
> Covers less so (though I am not belittling their importance), especially if you have an artistic eye (which I don't btw). Go on to YouTube and Derek Murphy has some great videos on how to make really nice covers for $1.


Professional proofreading is vital. Our eyes skim over our own mistakes.

It can take some hunting, but you can find reasonable cover designers. You want your book to be as professional as possible.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I think it depends on what your goals are.  If you are producing a book that you hope and expect readers to pay you money for, and you want to be a professional about it... you are going to need to pay for some things such as editing and cover art, at the minimum. 

Would you open a restaurant and ask people to eat off the ground out of their hands because you can't afford dishes yet? I would hope not, right? And if you did, you probably wouldn't expect anyone to actually eat your food, so hopefully you wouldn't be surprised when nobody wanted to come to your place for dinner...

Publishing is a business. If you want people to pay you for your work, ie this is not a hobby to you, you cannot treat it like a hobby. I mean, you can... but you will reap hobby rewards. The start-up costs for doing this are super low compared to almost any other business out there. You can get going and do a good job for a couple hundred bucks (a proofreader and a nice pre-made cover, for example). 

It's okay to publish as a hobby, btw. Not everyone wants or needs to make money or have a lot of readers. But if that is your goal and you are expecting readers to pay you with their time and hard-earned money... please please don't make them eat off the floor. Nobody wants to do that and you will be severely disappointed with your results.

Also... keep in mind what might have worked in 2010 won't fly now. There are a ton of good writers taking the time and money to fund their projects to a professional level that meets or exceeds trad publishing standards. If you want to compete with that, you have to present the best, most professionally created book you can.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Annie B said:


> I think it depends on what your goals are. If you are producing a book that you hope and expect readers to pay you money for, and you want to be a professional about it... you are going to need to pay for some things such as editing and cover art, at the minimum.
> 
> Would you open a restaurant and ask people to eat off the ground out of their hands because you can't afford dishes yet? I would hope not, right? And if you did, you probably wouldn't expect anyone to actually eat your food, so hopefully you wouldn't be surprised when nobody wanted to come to your place for dinner...
> 
> ...


This. All of this.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

I got stung on my covers originally -- at least looking back now that's how I feel now. I was so over the moon at the time! If anyone offered me those covers now for the price I originally paid I'd tell them to do one.

I've spent about 9 months playing and tinkering with designs on my new series of books (I used to do photography so I know my way around the basics in Photoshop) and I think I've vastly improved. (see blog post here as I have no idea how to add images + they're big!)

http://www.evdarcy.com/journal-1/2017/10/11/cover-art


ETA: I did this because I'm still new in publishing (read as 'An Unknown) and thus don't have the funds to compete with the big guys, so I needed to learn markets, covers, genres etc, and by doing my own covers I have learnt these things which is invaluable as a new(ish) author.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

While I think many authors can publish for little to no outlay, I don't think the majority of people coming into this can. I worry that they see stuff like this and think that plopping any old junk up will lead them to enough sales to improve it all later. I don't see that happening. Maybe even four or five years ago, but the competition is so fierce now that not putting up the best product you can is only going to hurt you.

I know what it's like to literally not have a single penny to put into publishing. I started out with nothing, and I've heard it all. Need editors, need world class cover designer, need thousands for ads, on and on. And it would add up to about $5K, if I did everything people said I had to do. And I'd never get anything published, because I didn't even have five dollars, much less five thousand. Even five hundred was like some kind of miracle in the making. I had nothing to sell to make any money, couldn't get a job, couldn't borrow or put something on a credit card.

So I did the best I could. I'm not perfect, and I know I never will be. But I'm okay with editing my own work. I've spent time learning how to use graphics programs, and I think my covers are at least as good as some of those put out by trad pub houses. I didn't have money, but I had loads of time and the will to try to do something.

If someone doesn't have money, they shouldn't give up on their dream of publishing, but they need to understand that some picture from Google with Comic Sans, or Papyrus randomly stuck over it won't do. Their not even high school D- grammar won't cut it. Their three word blurbs won't fly. If they're willing to put in the time and work, and look around for ways to get stuff done, then they might have what it takes to bootstrap their way in.

Maybe.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Know your goals. If your goal is to be a professional writer and earn a living at this business, then act like a professional. With professional cover, professional editing, etc.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

My computer died. I'm currently publishing with nothing more than my  $50 tablet. The nice thing about tablets are all the apps. There are free photo manipulation apps that will apply filters and graphics. With pixabay and pixlr, I can create a free cover in a few minutes. With Ginger Page I can edit on the go.

The crazy part?

I'm having the best sales month ever and its pure profit! A total investment of zero dollars. Don't let being strapped for cash stop you.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

There are some authors out there who can put out a professional product doing everything themselves. You won't know if you are one of those authors without some trial and error. 


Odds are you're not one of those authors and you need to pay professionals to put out a professional product, but there's nothing wrong with trying your hand at every aspect of the process and seeing where that gets you with readers. Sometimes (maybe all the time) learning the hard way is the best way.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2017)

Astro said:


> Draft 2 Digital isn't free. They format for free and after they take 15% of the net royalties.


Their formatting is free and unconditional. You can use the files anywhere, including retailers, even if you do not use them as a distributor. So the point the OP was making about them being free for formatting is correct.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Ha! I was to scared to ask Lorri how bad my editing was..   but that was my only option for book 1


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> My computer died. I'm currently publishing with nothing more than my $50 tablet. The nice thing about tablets are all the apps. There are free photo manipulation apps that will apply filters and graphics. With pixabay and pixlr, I can create a free cover in a few minutes. With Ginger Page I can edit on the go.
> 
> The crazy part?
> 
> I'm having the best sales month ever and its pure profit! A total investment of zero dollars. Don't let being strapped for cash stop you.


What does best sales month mean though? Someone starting out reading advice like this might thing "yeah, they are rolling in it without paying for anything!" when the reality might be you made 10 bucks this month. That's why I always caution people to really look at the advice being given and the results of those employing it. If they are not the results that would make you happy, that advice is probably not for you.

Nobody has to give hard numbers, btw. But I do think it is useful to keep in mind that when hard numbers are not present, the meaning of "doing well" or other phrases people use could be all over the place. Someone could say doing X doubled their sales, but if that took their sales from 1 a year to 2 a year... that's information that you might want to know before you drop everything and do X...

And this is why it is so important to know what your own goals are and what will satisfy you. Again... no harm doing this as a hobby, but recognize that if you are doing it as a hobby that is what you are and people doing it professionally are in a different category from you and will have very different goals and different results and will need to employ different methods.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I made roughly $1000 in three weeks Annie! I'm quite happy with that considering I started with nothing. If I listened to naysayers, I wouldn't have that!!!! If things keep going well, it will be 2k for October. 

Its much more important to listen to that internal voice inside and be your own cheerleader. If someone wants to jump in, I say do it. There's no "bad book" police waiting to punish you.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> Its much more important to listen to that internal voice inside and be your own cheerleader. If someone wants to jump in, I say do it. There's no "bad book" police waiting to punish you.


The one star brigade is always ready to march into battle.


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## Kal241 (Jan 11, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> The one star brigade is always ready to march into battle.


Those people will one-star anything for any reason they feel like. Including, but not limited to, "I don't like sci-fi/fantasy/history/erotica/romance/whatever your book's genre is." Being afraid of the one-star brigade seems pointless when they are known members of the cannot-be-pleased crowd.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Kal241 said:


> Those people will one-star anything for any reason they feel like. Including, but not limited to, "I don't like sci-fi/fantasy/history/erotica/romance/whatever your book's genre is." Being afraid of the one-star brigade seems pointless when they are known members of the cannot-be-pleased crowd.


However, sometimes they one star because the book seems amateurish in writing and presentation.


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## MattHaggis (May 1, 2017)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> There's no "bad book" police waiting to punish you.


They are called readers and reviewers, and sales numbers.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> I made roughly $1000 in three weeks Annie! I'm quite happy with that considering I started with nothing. If I listened to naysayers, I wouldn't have that!!!! If things keep going well, it will be 2k for October.
> 
> Its much more important to listen to that internal voice inside and be your own cheerleader. If someone wants to jump in, I say do it. There's no "bad book" police waiting to punish you.


That's pretty good for a single title with no outlay for editing, cover art, or advertising. What genre are you writing?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I am a huge fan of bootstrapping.

I hate it when I see beginning writers fork out hundreds or thousands when they haven't yet learned the ropes and don't yet understand what sort of investment is needed. I've seen people pay $3000 for covers that were great art, but absolutely unsuitable as book covers. I've seen people spends hundreds on proofreading and formatting for a book that had major structural issues and serious beginnerisms in writing style that were a serious impediment to sales.

There is nothing wrong with bootstrapping while you see if you actually like this self-publishing lark or whether a project has legs.

But, here is a big but, I strongly believe that you should reinvest a percentage of sales into improving the presentation of your product and advertising (in that order).

If and when you decide to get serious, get serious services.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> My computer died. I'm currently publishing with nothing more than my $50 tablet. The nice thing about tablets are all the apps. There are free photo manipulation apps that will apply filters and graphics. With pixabay and pixlr, I can create a free cover in a few minutes. With Ginger Page I can edit on the go.
> 
> The crazy part?
> 
> I'm having the best sales month ever and its pure profit! A total investment of zero dollars. Don't let being strapped for cash stop you.


I can't love this enough. Well done, sir!



Patty Jansen said:


> I am a huge fan of bootstrapping.
> 
> I hate it when I see beginning writers fork out hundreds or thousands when they haven't yet learned the ropes and don't yet understand what sort of investment is needed. I've seen people pay $3000 for covers that were great art, but absolutely unsuitable as book covers. I've seen people spends hundreds on proofreading and formatting for a book that had major structural issues and serious beginnerisms in writing style that were a serious impediment to sales.
> 
> ...


Yes. Much more elegantly put than my previous soap-boxing. But, you know... I didn't hire an editor for the post


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Martitalbott said:


> Ouch! - I mean about sales drying up.
> My first cover art was a horse on a blue background. I still love that cover.


I know... luckily I had other books out by that point in any case. The sales eventually recovered, after heavy promotion, but have never improved on those reached by the original botchjob cover. And there's a part of me that's quite proud of that, to be honest.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

DmGuay said:


> What you do and don't pay for depends on your background and skills.
> 
> Do what you can reasonably do, and do well, for yourself to save money. But, most certainly pay for the things you can't do well.


This.

I wouldn't recommend using free images for anything as there is no telling what you might miss in the small print. A lot of free images have restrictions on commercial use. But, any stock photo site will have graphic art which might fit your cover beautifully. In fact, one of the more well known cover designers does exactly this, with no changes, just the text.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Doglover said:


> This.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend using free images for anything as there is no telling what you might miss in the small print. A lot of free images have restrictions on commercial use. But, any stock photo site will have graphic art which might fit your cover beautifully. In fact, one of the more well known cover designers does exactly this, with no changes, just the text.


I can't cite it so I won't post it.. lol


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I'd strongly encourage bootstrapping authors to consider taking their own photos for cover images, to avoid any concerns about rights. I was able to get print quality resolution with a BlackBerry five years ago, and that's like a century in mobile phone generation years.

It's an idea that comes with certain genre limitations, but with a bit of photo manipulation, and potentially a willing friend or two to model (though make sure they understand exactly where you're intending to use the image beforehand), or getting the friend to take the photo of you if they're not happy being on a cover, you can potentially create your own free image for just about anything short of science-fiction, or a book set in a farflung locale.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Pandorra said:


> I can't cite it so I won't post it.. lol


Well, I could, but I won't. Will that do you?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> First book, not sure it will make you a bundle of money, don't have a lot to spend anyway?
> 
> Here are a few tips.
> 
> ...


All anyone can do with your bank account details is pay money in. Anyone who wants to do that, is welcome.

You have forgotten editing and proof reading. Strange as it may seem, there are vast numbers of educated adults who have no idea what to do with a full stop (period) or a comma and cannot spell if their lives depend on it. That is the one thing that cannot be got round, if you are so handicapped.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Doglover said:


> Well, I could, but I won't. Will that do you?


  I had written something about the 20% rule, which I couldn't verify.. so I took it out.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Pandorra said:


> I had written something about the 20% rule, which I couldn't verify.. so I took it out.


I know I am age and heading toward senility, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2017)

Okay, let's be realistic here. A good cover is not as expensive as all that. Not these days. So there really is no excuse for a crappy cover. I love it when I see someone write, "I did mine at home." Yeah...it shows. Good on you for saving that $100. A pity that it could have been the difference between someone reading your book and someone shaking their head and moving on. But there is more to a cover than the _cover _if you are writing a series. There is branding. If you look at the OP's covers, the font style and placement are not uniform. There is nothing to indicate that the books are in any way connected. That alone would make any advice given suspect. 
Of course if your book sells, there is the licencing of the images to take into account. Your best bet is to use original images that you own outright. But this can be very expensive - well beyond the financial means of most. It involves photo shoots, contracts, blah, blah blah. I would not suggest this to a new writer. If your book does in fact take off, you can always use the money you earn to make new covers once your licencing reaches its limit. 
Formatting is not hard to learn. But designing the interior of a paperback or hardcover is another matter. Not that you can't learn to do it. But it's time consuming and compared with other expenses relatively cheap. 
What has the OP forgotten? Quite a lot. If you think it's an accident that successful indies spend substantial money on a new release you're mistaken. And yes, I'm measuring success with the only yardstick that matters - money. Successfully writing a book doesn't make you a successful writer. Selling the book does. And though there are ways to save money along the way, you can't avoid that some things you will have to pay for if you want to release a good book and not some half-edited, poorly proofed, piece of feces. 
Writing is a business. So unless you want to spend the next ten years frustrated, you had better treat it as such. Learn from people who sell books. Improve on your skills. Otherwise the only thing you write that people read will be these posts.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> Writing is a business. So unless you want to spend the next ten years frustrated, you had better treat it as such. Learn from people who sell books. Improve on your skills. Otherwise the only thing you write that people read will be these posts.


Harshly written, even though I agree with most of what you posted. I see so often on this site all advice being weighed equally. There are people giving advice who have one book and $127 total royalties, some who are still working on their first novel, people who have three books and $9700 in earnings, and people who have sold 1M+ copies and made a full time living every year for several years. It's the ones in the later category who, pretty much without exception say that you need to have a professional cover, pay for editing, etc.

Not all advice applies to all people. There is room out there for people writing for fun or for a small side income. It would be really helpful to know what advice is coming from what type of writer, but that's hard to do. Instead, we get a lot of "This worked for me!" without knowing the definition of "worked" in this particular context.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

Doglover said:


> I know I am age and heading toward senility, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Some designers go by the rule that if you change 20% of the font or picture it is no longer copyrighted, but yours to do with as you wish. (with some exceptions) there is case study on it, but no laws have been changed to reflect a change in protocol so I figured I would leave it out for another day/another post!


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

The OP's point that you _can_ do all of this yourself is perfectly valid. If you _should_ is what everyone else is talking about.

For the record, my best-selling book was self-edited. My expenses before publication were: $210 for a full cover design (print and ebook). And before anyone says 'things were different back then' the book came out December 2015.

The book's earnings paid for its own bookbub ad, and the sales from that paid for its audiobook, and the sales from THAT paid for all of my other audiobooks.

Now, having said all of that, i'm working with a copy editor nowadays.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> Harshly written, even though I agree with most of what you posted. I see so often on this site all advice being weighed equally. There are people giving advice who have one book and $127 total royalties, some who are still working on their first novel, people who have three books and $9700 in earnings, and people who have sold 1M+ copies and made a full time living every year for several years. It's the ones in the later category who, pretty much without exception say that you need to have a professional cover, pay for editing, etc.
> 
> Not all advice applies to all people. There is room out there for people writing for fun or for a small side income. It would be really helpful to know what advice is coming from what type of writer, but that's hard to do. Instead, we get a lot of "This worked for me!" without knowing the definition of "worked" in this particular context.


Sure, not all things are applicable. But some things are universal. We talk about them all the time in out Hybrid group as a matter of course. Can you tell that I know who you are?  Flip over there in a minute and I'll do the big reveal! 
Successful indies repeat advice like the need for pro-editing, proof reading, and the other aspects, all of which cost money, because they are essential. Granted that some books are just BAD and no amount of editing can fix them. And I would never tell someone to sink their life savings into a marketing campaign or spend money traveling to attend conventions. 
If a writer doesn't have the funding to put out a professional product, they can do what I did and save their nickles and dimes for months, in the meantime networking online. If a writer is asking for money in exchange for their product, it should be as good as possible. Otherwise they're little better than a flim-flam artist.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> Harshly written, even though I agree with most of what you posted. I see so often on this site all advice being weighed equally. There are people giving advice who have one book and $127 total royalties, some who are still working on their first novel, people who have three books and $9700 in earnings, and people who have sold 1M+ copies and made a full time living every year for several years. It's the ones in the later category who, pretty much without exception say that you need to have a professional cover, pay for editing, etc.
> 
> Not all advice applies to all people. There is room out there for people writing for fun or for a small side income. It would be really helpful to know what advice is coming from what type of writer, but that's hard to do. Instead, we get a lot of "This worked for me!" without knowing the definition of "worked" in this particular context.


I think the rule for everyone should be to do the very best with what you have at every stage of the process. I would definitely say reinvesting the money you make from each book is just good business sense, as others have pointed out it IS a business, regardless if they have people breathing down their necks or are simply working at their own pace. But when you're starting out, sometimes you just have to start small while thinking smart... nobody wants to buy a clunker when shiny and new is listed at the same price.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> Can you tell that I know who you are?  Flip over there in a minute and I'll do the big reveal!


Oh, I know.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> For the record, my best-selling book was self-edited. My expenses before publication were: $210 for a full cover design (print and ebook). And before anyone says 'things were different back then' the book came out December 2015.
> 
> The book's earnings paid for its own bookbub ad, and the sales from that paid for its audiobook, and the sales from THAT paid for all of my other audiobooks.


1. What are the numbers? Without them, "best-selling" is only relative to other books in your catalog. How do they compare to the people earning a professional living?
2. Would numbers have been even better with professional editing? No way to know, but I'm confident they wouldn't have been worse.
3. There will always be outliers. In general, the more professional the writing, cover, editing, etc., the better the results. Doing a survey on KB, I'm convinced that paying for professional services tracks very closely with sales and income.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

GeneDoucette said:


> The OP's point that you _can_ do all of this yourself is perfectly valid. If you _should_ is what everyone else is talking about.
> 
> For the record, my best-selling book was self-edited. My expenses before publication were: $210 for a full cover design (print and ebook). And before anyone says 'things were different back then' the book came out December 2015.


This wasn't your first book, was it? The thread title explicitly aims the advice at _new_ authors. Who probably aren't experienced enough to do those things by themselves (in my humble opinion, anyway).


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

I hate to say this (being one of those new authors and all  ) but even the best authors here didn't get where they are without hitting a few snags and having to climb the ladder like everyone else. It's easy to give advice from the top, which is really and truly appreciated from those at the bottom, but hitting new authors where it hurts just because they don't do everything perfectly isn't helping anyone. 

I appreciate constructive criticism, I really do. But telling/deciding for someone what they should or shouldn't do for a living, based on your own experiences or not, is not exactly constructive. So why is it even a question here?


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Pandorra said:


> I hate to say this (being one of those new authors and all  ) but even the best authors here didn't get where they are without hitting a few snags and having to climb the ladder like everyone else. It's easy to give advice from the top, which is really and truly appreciated from those at the bottom, but hitting new authors where it hurts just because they don't do everything perfectly isn't helping anyone.
> 
> I appreciate constructive criticism, I really do. But telling/deciding for someone what they should or shouldn't do for a living, based on your own experiences or not, is not exactly constructive. So why is it even a question here?


*Answer:*



Annie B said:


> Publishing is a business. If you want people to pay you for your work, ie this is not a hobby to you, you cannot treat it like a hobby. I mean, you can... but you will reap hobby rewards. The start-up costs for doing this are super low compared to almost any other business out there. You can get going and do a good job for a couple hundred bucks (a proofreader and a nice pre-made cover, for example).
> 
> It's okay to publish as a hobby, btw. Not everyone wants or needs to make money or have a lot of readers. But if that is your goal and you are expecting readers to pay you with their time and hard-earned money... please please don't make them eat off the floor. Nobody wants to do that and you will be severely disappointed with your results.


Nobody says you can't do what you want. Just that you shouldn't expect a professional's income if you do.

Back when I first posted my covers on kboards, someone pointed out that the light effects on Transition's cover were going to look like wings at thumbnail size. I ignored them. And guess what, now I have an UF book that shows a 'fairy' with luminescent wings at thumbnail size. This isn't the only newbie mistake that ended up hurting my sales, but I'm sure it had an impact. And now I have to shell out another 1000$ for new covers.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> *Answer:*
> 
> Nobody says you can't do what you want. Just that you shouldn't expect a professional's income if you do.


That's common sense, I don't _have_ to hit the top 100 to know that part is true. But I _do _have to work my butt off to get there and that means I may have to scrimp or DIY in order to make enough to reinvest. That's also common sense.

I know there are risks, but they are mine to take.. I try not to hurt other author's by making a totally bad show of it but I won't know if I can do it (or not) until I try. Right?


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

I spent a few years saving up for professional editing, and in the meantime I published free web fiction with 0 production costs. I'm by no means well off. If I can do it, anyone can. I get angry when people with good jobs (earning upwards of 5 grand a month) tell me they can't afford professional covers and editing. I did it, and I earn less than what is considered the minimum standard for living in my country. If I have to live off soup and sandwiches and never go out so I can pay an editor, I will.

*Note:* This isn't aimed at Pandorra by any means, just a general comment on the subject of 'I can't afford to approach this as a professional'.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> I spent a few years saving up for professional editing, and in the meantime I published free web fiction with 0 production costs. I'm by no means well off. If I can do it, anyone can. I get angry when people with good jobs (earning upwards of 5 grand a month) tell me they can't afford professional covers and editing. I did it, and I earn less than what is considered the minimum standard for living in my country.


Which is great, but I get angry when people tell me I can save enough to do it in five years.. I don't have five years, I am not even sure I have one... and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to afford saving over those years, everything I have goes into necessities.. my hope is that if I can manage to grab a small bite of knowledge from this and do it right, it will pay for some of the things I need, like the dead weight on a much needed surgery... not the other way around. I love writing, and right now its what I have after giving up a hell of a lot more.. don't judge every book by its cover.. we don't all have the same story inside.

and this is me at the situation lol .. I am NOT angry with you, I am just trying to muddle through all of this without getting slapped down at a low point of all the publishing fun...


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Pandorra said:


> That's common sense, I don't _have_ to hit the top 100 to know that part is true. But I _do _have to work my butt off to get there and that means I may have to scrimp or DIY in order to make enough to reinvest. That's also common sense.


Know your goals. If your goal is to succeed as an indie, that's a business decision, and you should do the same things you'd do for any other business. If you were to start a small restaurant, you'd need to invest up front. There's a very low bar for entry into this business--it's an order of magnitude cheaper, at least than opening a restaurant--but there are still some up front costs.

Also, you've _already_ invested hundreds of hours of your time on learning the craft, asking questions on KB, writing the actual book, etc. If what it takes to then put that book out there professionally involves some money, why not find a way to do that, too? Work a temp job for a couple of weekends, if that's what it takes.

If you're looking at it as a hobby or a fun little "who knows WHAT might happen" project, then that's a different situation.



> I know there are risks, but they are mine to take.. I try not to hurt other author's by making a totally bad show of it but I won't know if I can do it (or not) until I try. Right?


Don't worry about hurting other authors. Do the best you can ethically do for yourself and let the others worry about their own careers.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Pandorra said:


> my hope is that if I can manage to grab a small bite of knowledge from this and do it right, it will pay for some of the things I need, like the dead weight on a much needed surgery... not the other way around.


If you need money for surgery, but don't have funds to invest, there are a lot better returns on investment than the time you'd spend writing. This is a very chancy business under the best of circumstances. Going into it needing to make money and being unable to invest in covers, editing, marketing, etc., is only a step up from going to Vegas, IMO.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Pandorra said:


> I love writing, and right now its what I have after giving up a hell of a lot more.. don't judge every book by its cover.. we don't all have the same story inside.


No one said you should stop writing. By all means, keep at it. You have the love, so you don't need a top 1000 author's income to motivate you.

And because I mentioned free web fiction above: some writers make several hundred bucks a month that way - using Patreon. Happy readers and enthusiastic comments are quite rewarding in their own right.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> If you need money for surgery, but don't have funds to invest, there are a lot better returns on investment than the time you'd spend writing. This is a very chancy business under the best of circumstances. Going into it needing to make money and being unable to invest in covers, editing, marketing, etc., is only a step up from going to Vegas, IMO.


Except I can't get on a plane, or ride in a car for any distance or be around crowds lol .. I CAN sit at home and try to do something for myself though, rather then waiting around for nothing or begging for a hand out. As I said, I love to write, if it helps then it helps, if it doesn't then at least I go out doing something I love and with the satisfaction of knowing I didn't give up because someone told me I could do better elsewhere when they can still walk and see and breathe on their own, having no idea what its like to lose those things...


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> No one said you should stop writing. By all means, keep at it. You have the love, so you don't need a top 1000 author's income to motivate you.
> 
> And because I mentioned free web fiction above: some writers make several hundred bucks a month that way - using Patreon. Happy readers and enthusiastic comments are quite rewarding in their own right.


I didn't mean to high jack the main topic lol .. I just finished my first book and published it on the 1st, I am getting mixed reports from KU but I was hoping to get some viability form it before I released the second at the end of the month and a stand alone about the same time. I took my renew button off earlier today for KU and will prbly end up putting that first of the Elera series in the Patreon to see how it does so thank you for any advice you've given there.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Pandorra said:


> Except I can't get on a plane, or ride in a car for any distance or be around crowds lol .. I CAN sit at home and try to do something for myself though, rather then waiting around for nothing or begging for a hand out. As I said, I love to write, if it helps then it helps, if it doesn't then at least I go out doing something I love and with the satisfaction of knowing I didn't give up because someone told me I could do better elsewhere when they can still walk and see and breathe on their own, having no idea what its like to lose those things...


You're right, I don't know what it's like to lose those things. What I have done is make a living at writing, and so I'm trying to address how to do that. If I were in your situation (assuming you can sit stretches at the computer), I would teach myself print and ebook formatting to a professional level. That's easier than learning how to edit your own work or do professional covers (at least for me). Then I would have that part of things covered and could freelance to other writers to pay for the cover and advertising.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

MonkishScribe gives good advice. I also proofread / edit for another author on the side - in German, which is my first language and a bit of a market niche around these parts


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> You're right, I don't know what it's like to lose those things. What I have done is make a living at writing, and so I'm trying to address how to do that. If I were in your situation (assuming you can sit stretches at the computer), I would teach myself print and ebook formatting to a professional level. That's easier than learning how to edit your own work or do professional covers (at least for me). Then I would have that part of things covered and could freelance to other writers to pay for the cover and advertising.


Unfortunately, sitting is my only option at the moment..so I tend to get a lot done in a day.  

I have been dusting off my MBA (from 20 yrs ago so we'll see) and learning what I can as I go.. its definitely something I will try once I get a handle on everything.. but I would still need/want the experience of trying it on my own books before assuring others I could do theirs.. at least with any confidence 

Edit to add: I got lucky with my covers, a friend of mine who works with graphics has offered to do mine for free so its the editing/advertising that will hit hardest and I still haven't figured out the best place to put the investment there for the best results for when I can afford it. One mth behind me I still know a lot more than I did..


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

MonkishScribe said:


> 1. What are the numbers? Without them, "best-selling" is only relative to other books in your catalog. How do they compare to the people earning a professional living?
> 2. Would numbers have been even better with professional editing? No way to know, but I'm confident they wouldn't have been worse.
> 3. There will always be outliers. In general, the more professional the writing, cover, editing, etc., the better the results. Doing a survey on KB, I'm convinced that paying for professional services tracks very closely with sales and income.


1: It's sold over 50,000 copies and cleared six figures by itself in 2017.

2: This is utterly irrelevant to the point being made. I'm never said it was bad advice to get editing, I was challenging the argument that it's 100% necessary. You've also managed to cut off the caveat at the end of my overall point, which is that I use a copy editor now that i can afford one.

3: And now you're essentially saying 'anyway it doesn't matter, because you're an outlier.' This also begs the point I was making.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

The point stands. There have been people who have started out with nothing. Done it all themselves for a while and THEN been able to start spending money on projects.

Me: I started with the funds to do things the 'right' way. 
I paid for a website, I had my books professionally edited (Annie was a dream to work with!), paid a LOT for covers, and all the things that I am constantly seeing on here that we need to do in order to be successful etc, but I still got it wrong. I might only have two books out, so I wasn't expecting MILLIONS or even thousands, I thought I might earn hundreds, but... I didn't. I got it wrong, I used up all my initial funds and have no more to do this with my next batch of books.

I have learnt my lesson: Just because you do the right things, doesn't mean success. Now I have to spend time learning things such a design work as I have to do my own covers. I've never found a pre-made that's right for my book, and certainly none that would work for the series as a whole. 
Basically I HAVE to do things as cheaply as possible because I have to make this next set of writing more successful than my first. Every penny I have from writing is taken straight up with other things to do with writing; research, newsletters, website costs, etc.

I admit, I am lucky that I did do *some* things professionally at first. I have my own website still with dedicated domain name (although I redesigned that three or four times to get it right still - probably cost me in visitors initially), I bought software to write with that does help me keep my thoughts in order, and Vellum to format my work (although this was much later after I discovered pay as you go Mac servers).

However, I think that when you start out, if you don't have anything, but this is your passion and this is what you want to do forevermore, then start out with what you can. BUT ensure you listen to people (check their credentials at first!), if someone tells you the cover has problems, go away and look at what those problems are. Compare it. Research the hell out of things. Practice more and more covers.

I went from this:









To this:









Both designed by my. Both for the same story. Both worlds apart.

I find university graduates with relevant degrees working other jobs that want to earn on the side or add something to their CV for proofreading (I will go back to Annie as soon as I can afford her again for proper editing!), and I am going to sink what little money I *do* have for advertising when the next series is ready for it.

You *can* do things on a shoe string and get it right. You *can* do things perceived the 'correct' way and get it wrong (like me). You can also do the reverse of each.

I cannot wait until the day where I am earning my full living from writing. When I can hire people to do jobs for me that just allow me to focus on the writing side of things. But today is not that day.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> 1: It's sold over 50,000 copies and cleared six figures by itself in 2017.
> 
> 2: This is utterly irrelevant to the point being made. I'm never said it was bad advice to get editing, I was challenging the argument that it's 100% necessary. You've also managed to cut off the caveat at the end of my overall point, which is that I use a copy editor now that i can afford one.
> 
> 3: And now you're essentially saying 'anyway it doesn't matter, because you're an outlier.' This also begs the point I was making.


Congratulations on the success. My points are more to be taken in general. The only problem I have with your specific comments is that there will be a lot of newbies who use them to justify wishful thinking about how to make a living. I want to focus on best practices. That's the part of this we can control and leads to success at a far higher rate than a more amateur/hobbyist approach.

To be fair, you did add a caveat.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

C. Rysalis said:


> This wasn't your first book, was it? The thread title explicitly aims the advice at _new_ authors. Who probably aren't experienced enough to do those things by themselves (in my humble opinion, anyway).


It _was_ my first self-published novel, yes. I had four books with a publisher at the time. I don't see how this alters the point I was making.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

MonkishScribe said:


> Congratulations on the success. My points are more to be taken in general. The only problem I have with your specific comments is that there will be a lot of newbies who use them to justify wishful thinking about how to make a living. I want to focus on best practices. That's the part of this we can control and leads to success at a far higher rate than a more amateur/hobbyist approach.
> 
> To be fair, you did add a caveat.


Yep, I understand your concern. I would counter with the point that the people who are afraid to get into self-publishing because of the purported out-of-pocket costs, or worse, the people who have the money to start off and spend it on things they don't need to spend it on, are easy prey for those who would take advantage.

I learned from three years of working with content editors that I don't need a content editor. Copy editors are always helpful for typo spotting, but I also learned that my manuscripts are pretty clean. I already knew this about myself going in, so instead I invested in the one thing I knew I couldn't do: a cover. A better piece of advice may be to know where and what the costs are for each step of this process, and figure out what you can survive without.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

evdarcy said:


> There have been people who have started out with nothing. Done it all themselves for a while and THEN been able to start spending money on projects.


Truth. Many people who've done well started out doing everything on their own. Bear in mind many of those who made their covers and self-edited did so when KDP was new, there wasn't much indie competition, and you could get away with covers you can't today. But typically the ones who will tell you to get pro help for covers and editing (proofreading at a bare minimum) are often the ones who did start out that way who know it's going to be easier for people to succeed, faster for them to succeed, if they start out a step ahead with a pro cover and someone with word skills looking over their prose.

Starting out bare bones is a valid path. Many of us have trudged it. But it's almost always going to be the harder, longer one. The "get pro help from the start" advice is designed to shorten that path and clear some rocks out of the way, not shame people who have to or want to do it all themselves. Just saying. 

I've made a living writing fiction for quite a while now. I self-edit extensively, and when I hire new eyes it's for proofreading. I have a friend who combs through most of my stuff and does a better editing job than anyone I've paid to do the same. If I found an editor I thought was worth the money (the majority are not), I'd still send it to my friend, and I'd pay the editor, too. I suspect I'll find that person someday, if I keep looking. I pay cover designers, happily. Take my damn money and make me something beautiful and professional, please.

If I couldn't do that, I'd find a friend with an eye for my genre and design and get them to help me make something not horrible or pick out an inexpensive pre-made somewhere that didn't look almost as bad as something I could make myself. Unfortunately, a lot of writers do not have an eye for design. There's a lot of Dunning-Kruger going on in every writing space where writers can show off the cover they just made. I see it here a lot, for instance. The majority of homemade covers range from terrible to merely not that good to wtf genre even is this?

Do the best you (general you) can. Get the best you can afford, within reason. Don't spend your grocery or rent money on stuff--don't spend money you can't afford to lose unless you enjoy risk and ramen. And never be afraid to let people who might know a little more than you have a look and offer suggestions, even if you're sure you don't need any help. You may reject every one, but you'll still benefit over time from considering someone else's perspective.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Doglover said:


> All anyone can do with your bank account details is pay money in. Anyone who wants to do that, is welcome.
> 
> You have forgotten editing and proof reading. Strange as it may seem, there are vast numbers of educated adults who have no idea what to do with a full stop (period) or a comma and cannot spell if their lives depend on it. That is the one thing that cannot be got round, if you are so handicapped.


I didn't forget editing and proofreading. Those are not free and shouldn't be. I just hate seeing new authors being sucked into spending giant amounts of money before they know if they have a book that people will buy. 
Another thread recently asked if $50 a month was a good price to have someone do their AMS ads. No, setting them up and monitoring them is free. No one can guarantee an above average ROI. A $500.00 cover doesn't mean a book will sell if it's not well written or edited. That's just common sense. I like to think I have some common sense occasionally.

When I started publishing in 2010, I was looking at living on less than $1000 a month, in low income housing and going to food banks to survive. I did everything free because I had to. In that time, I've seen dozens of ways people prey on vulnerable authors. Makes me mad. I've seen people offer to set up accounts and upload books to Amazon - for a fee. (seriously?)

For a fee, people will do anything and everything for an author. Of course, they don't guarantee success. If they were successful, we'd all hear about it. I just want authors to know it doesn't have to be expensive or a nightmare to publish a book.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

Shelley K said:


> Do the best you (general you) can. Get the best you can afford, within reason. Don't spend your grocery or rent money on stuff--don't spend money you can't afford to lose unless you enjoy risk and ramen. And never be afraid to let people who might know a little more than you have a look and offer suggestions, even if you're sure you don't need any help. You may reject every one, but you'll still benefit over time from considering someone else's perspective.


This completely!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Lorri Moulton said:


> That's the wonderful thing about indie publishing. Anyone can do it! There are no trad publishers "allowing" us to enter the market. We are here! Whether we make a lot of money, become famous or just enjoy sharing our writing...we can publish from anywhere. We can publish from our home! Truly amazing.


1. Can you?
A: Yes.
2. Should you?
A: Depends on if it's a hobby or a serious attempt to make a living. If it's a hobby, then yes. If it's a serious attempt to make a living, best practices involve investing money in covers, editing, and advertising. Much like running any other small business, you need to have some money invested to give yourself a good chance to succeed.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

MonkishScribe said:


> Depends on if it's a hobby or a serious attempt to make a living. If it's a hobby, then yes. If it's a serious attempt to make a living, best practices involve investing money in covers, editing, and advertising. Much like running any other small business, you need to have some money invested to give yourself a good chance to succeed.


Yes, so you keep saying. But some people get around it. You said earlier if you want to take longer... You know, sometimes it's not about WANT it's about NEED.

And you know what, some of us need baby steps. It's the simple. Some of us need to fall on our arses and pick our selves up to learn the ropes. Some of us need to fail in order to succeed.

Kudos to those who have made it from the earlier days. But I also bet you were all told it's a pipe dream, or a nice hobby, or whatever, and yet you worked through it, pushed it, and emerged victorious. While you ARE right (if that's what you're all desperate to hear) that doing it professionally (meaning throwing money at things) is the way to go, some cannot.

I agree with something someone said earlier. You do it with what you have.
Some of the most successful business people I've heard off started off at the bottom; stockroom boy, high school drop out, cheap market stall owner. Some of them lost everything and rebuilt. Some did that more than once!

Do it with what you have, and then when you have more, do it better!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I appreciate that you're trying to help. I really do.


I _am_ helping. Not everyone, or even most of the people here. But there are lurkers here who are reading and trying to think of this seriously like a business, and I imagine some of them are connecting with what I'm saying.

I am not saying that it's impossible to bootstrap, I'm saying that indie _best practices_ involve investing in this like you would any other small business. Your _best_ chance of success is professional covers, professional editors, and paying for marketing. Can one possibly bootstrap? Yes, but that is a less successful path *on average.*


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I appreciate that you're trying to help. I really do.
> 
> Yes, success may be _easier_ with more money, but it's not _necessary_.
> 
> ...


It is easier with more money. The more the better. But even without more, you need some. You simply can't do everything yourself. Editing, for example. Self-editing is just another draft. Editors get paid for a reason. Proof reading. Sure you can get your buddy to do it for free....but...well....do I really need to explain why that's a bad idea? Not having the money for production does not change reality. For every 1 writer making a living who says I'm wrong, I'll show you 100 who says I'm right. And MonkeyScribe is right too.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> For every 1 writer making a living who says I'm wrong, I'll show you 100 who says I'm right. And MonkeyScribe is right too.


MonkeyScribe is paid in bananas. Generally 70%, but sometimes 35% during a special promotion.


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

MonkeyScribe said:


> 1. Can you?
> A: Yes.
> 2. Should you?
> A: Depends on if it's a hobby or a serious attempt to make a living. If it's a hobby, then yes. If it's a serious attempt to make a living, best practices involve investing money in covers, editing, and advertising. Much like running any other small business, you need to have some money invested to give yourself a good chance to succeed.


I will have to disagree. Simply because one has to start from nothing and work to where they can spend money on their product does not make them any less serious. It does not make them "hobbyists." It makes them folks who know the road to earning a living is going to be a long road uphill, complete with potholes and detours. A writer doesn't have to have all the best practices money upfront to avoid being called a hobbyist. A writer has to write and do the best they can with what they have. Maybe it used to be easier, but it can still be done because writers are still doing it.

An artist doesn't have to make sure they can book an art gallery before they try to sell a painting. They just have to work harder than the guy who already has his gallery show.

So, to all you out there starting out with nothing. Yes, editing and covers are important, but don't let anything stop you. Never give up, never surrender!

JQJ- who is not a hobbyist.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

So here's an example of a cover anyone could make, and this book is currently #5 on the bestseller list. Oh sure, I know this is a top selling author, but if he paid a lot for this cover, I'd be worried about him. http://a.co/h0lIVkT


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> So here's an example of a cover anyone could make, and this book is currently #5 on the bestseller list. Oh sure, I know this is a top selling author, but if he paid a lot for this cover, I'd be worried about him. http://a.co/h0lIVkT


That cover follows genre conventions for thrillers and works with its title. It is selling the author and his branded look, and telling you what is different about this book at a glance (tropical location, signaled by colors and design).

You don't have to take the advice of the major selling authors here. Of course you don't. You can continue on and hope for some kind of magical lucky break. But they didn't get where they are by magic and fairy dust. If I'm an aspiring football player and I have the opportunity to ask an NFL player for his advice and feedback, or I could ask another guy playing college ball with me, I'd pay more attention to what the NFL player said. He's made it where I want to go.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> You don't have to take the advice of the major selling authors here. Of course you don't. You can continue on and hope for some kind of magical lucky break. But they didn't get where they are by magic and fairy dust.


Not one of us has rubbished any of the advice given, and when we are in that position of stepping up, we will. This is what we're not getting. Some of us just don't have the money, RJ, so we're doing what we can. we offer this advice to those in the same boat. Not a single post I've read has said do it this way forever.

Surely the NFL player wouldn't tell a kid that he has to spend x money on his foot wear, or y money om his choice of hydration liquids. No, he'd say, hey kid you work hard and when you've put in the effort you'll get to be like me.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

evdarcy said:


> Not one of us has rubbished any of the advice given, and when we are in that position of stepping up, we will. This is what we're not getting. Some of us just don't have the money, RJ, so we're doing what we can. we offer this advice to those in the same boat. Not a single post I've read has said do it this way forever.
> 
> Surely the NFL player wouldn't tell a kid that he has to spend x money on his foot wear, or y money om his choice of hydration liquids. No, he'd say, hey kid you work hard and when you've put in the effort you'll get to be like me.


But you see, you have a thread where you're saying you aren't selling the way you want, wondering if that's because you're not writing to market. You want to sell. It's crowded out there. You have to have a grabby title and a cover and blurb that work with it. You don't if you don't care about selling. If you care about selling, you do. My covers cost me 99 dollars. People here are saying you don't have to do this to sell, but you do. You simply do. You have to have a professional LOOKING product.

People have different strengths. Mine is in editing because it used to be my job. That's an area I can spend less on. I was a copy writer also, so I can do a strong blurb. But my graphics skills are garbage. Almost everyone I see making their own covers is about in my boat, except a few people who DO have real graphics skills. The problem is that many people can't evaluate that realistically. Witness the post about Nelson DeMille's cover. It's an area most of us just haven't developed enough to judge it well.

A football player has his equipment supplied. I am not using that as an exact example. I'm saying, people who have succeeded in a field have probably figured things out along the way. They may know what it takes. It's not a bad idea to listen. But hey, Book 24 isn't finishing itself. Back to work.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JulianneQJohnson said:


> I will have to disagree. Simply because one has to start from nothing and work to where they can spend money on their product does not make them any less serious. It does not make them "hobbyists."


You can be serious about a hobby, but it implies that you're not doing it as a primary source of money. If you are doing it as a primary source of money, even making that attempt, then professional presentation is important.

Note that this says nothing about the quality of the book itself. I can buy some seriously yummy baked goods at my seasonal open air market. The entry costs for that are pretty low. The people there don't typically make a living, but have other jobs.

When someone decides she wants to make a living from her baked goods, this generally involves putting in money for a professional level bakery, for branding, for a store front, etc. If she doesn't do that, but keeps selling at the farmers market for some fun money, it doesn't mean that the pies and brownies are unpalatable, but it does limit her ability to make a living.

My advice here is for people who want to make a living. If you want to do this as a serious business, you have to treat it seriously. If you don't, then your financial situation is likely to remain at the hobbyist level. Your pies books can still be of high quality.


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

evdarcy said:


> Surely the NFL player wouldn't tell a kid that he has to spend x money on his foot wear, or y money om his choice of hydration liquids. No, he'd say, hey kid you work hard and when you've put in the effort you'll get to be like me.


Nope. In fact, I imagine there are many ball players who have gotten where they have by working hard despite starting with nothing. Because, as with most things in life, hard work can often take the place of money.

I guess I missed the magic and fairy dust posts.

As I and others have said on this board, being a one-person show isn't best practices. It's a lot of hard work and you shouldn't expect to break the bank. But you can totally do it until you have money to spend on best practices. I don't think anyone reading this is under the misapprehension that being a one person show is a magic road to bestseller status. But it isn't pay-to-win either.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Lynna said:


> Ignore them unless you've already tried things your way, whatever your reason, and couldn't find success. _Then_ try a different path if you don't want to move on to other opportunities.


Nobody is saying you can't do things your own way. What people are saying is that if you want to do it as a business, these are best practices as proven by a majority of the people who are making this viable as a business. If you aren't so concerned with the financial side of things, you can do it any way you'd like.

What people do or don't do doesn't reflect on me at all. I'm posting this anonymously (or semi-anonymously) after all. How could it?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MonkishScribe said:


> I _am_ helping. Not everyone, or even most of the people here. But there are lurkers here who are reading and trying to think of this seriously like a business, and I imagine some of them are connecting with what I'm saying.
> 
> I am not saying that it's impossible to bootstrap, I'm saying that indie _best practices_ involve investing in this like you would any other small business. Your _best_ chance of success is professional covers, professional editors, and paying for marketing. Can one possibly bootstrap? Yes, but that is a less successful path *on average.*


There are risks at both ends of the spectrum, IMO.

If a newbie follows the "Hey, you can do it all yourself!" advice, they might end up not selling what what could've been a very successful book, just because it looks too amateurish to attract attention and/or puts off readers with poor editing. If a newbie follows the "This is a business, so invest in your product!" advice, they could end up sinking a whole lot of money into something that will never sell well because you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The latter misstep seems like the worse of the two, to me. After all, you can always give a poorly covered, poorly edited book and a second life, but there's no recovering money spent on a story that's just irrecoverably bad.

People like you and Annie B and Monique may have found success by investing in your products upfront, but you weren't spending that money on sows' ears, so you're not a representative sample of what happens to people who invest upfront. You all represent what happens when you invest upfront *and* have a great story underlying that investment.

That's why I like Marti's caveat to be sure of the big-picture quality of your product before you invest money you can't afford to lose. To follow the restaurant metaphor Annie used, would you sink a lot of money into starting a restaurant if you and your Mom were the only ones who'd ever tried your food? No, you'd only rent your building and buy your silverware if you had some convincing evidence you could produce food people like a lot.

There are lots of ways to get reality-check feedback on your stories' quality, but publishing on a shoestring with a disposable pen name is one way to do it. If you get hosed for big-picture stuff like incoherence or boringness or whatever, then you know you're not ready to sink lots of money into editing and covers: you need stronger basics first. Really good beta-readers could also give you that message, but they're hard for newbies to find. Feedback from experienced, successful authors would also do the trick, but those folks tend to be very busy. For many of us, putting work out there for the public is the best real-work test available.

Once you're sure your product is basically sound, sure, invest. It'll still be a risk, but a somewhat more reasonable one.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Some fair points, Becca. I'm not in the "spend *big* money" crowd, that's for sure. Editing feels like a hard line to me, and pre-made covers can be had relatively cheaply. Fifty to a hundred bucks. I do think most authors should be able to teach themselves formatting without a huge amount of headache. It's easier than it used to be, because the tools are better.

Throw in some launch advertising, and you can do a release for a thousand dollars, then upgrade covers and advertising for future projects. That sum doesn't seem unreasonable when you've already put in hundreds of hours of labor on the project. Even if you only value your time at minimum wage, you're _already_ into it for a good sum at that point.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> There are risks at both ends of the spectrum, IMO.
> 
> If a newbie follows the "Hey, you can do it all yourself!" advice, they might end up not selling what what could've been a very successful book, just because it looks too amateurish to attract attention and/or puts off readers with poor editing. If a newbie follows the "This is a business, so invest in your product!" advice, they could end up sinking a whole lot of money into something that will never sell well because you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The latter misstep seems like the worse of the two, to me. After all, you can always give a poorly covered, poorly edited book and a second life, but there's no recovering money spent on a story that's just irrecoverably bad.
> 
> ...


+100


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

I'm not bothering posting on this any more. I'm repeating myself, which I get enough of in my day job. Clearly it has now just descended into a do this or don't succeed thread when it was supposed to be a support thread.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> So here's an example of a cover anyone could make, and this book is currently #5 on the bestseller list. Oh sure, I know this is a top selling author, but if he paid a lot for this cover, I'd be worried about him. http://a.co/h0lIVkT


This is also published by Simon and Schuster and isn't his first book. Comparing covers of trade published books and indie published books is really comparing apples to oranges. It's not the same playing field. Neither is comparing someone who has been indie publishing for years to someone who just started.

Covers sell books. There are other ways to sell books, but many of those cost more money or aren't available to everyone. Even books that take off (and they are rare) with subpar covers still have covers that indicate genre and tone.

I'm not saying someone can't make their own cover, just that this example isn't the best.

Personally, I don't think we can group authors into two categories based on how much they spend or outsource. It's not as simple as saying you're a hobby writer if you bootstrap, because that is where some people have to start.

It's about expectations. Don't expect to sell a lot of copies or even any without investing. Be that covers, editing, advertising, etc. Can you sell copies and do everything yourself? Yeah, it's possible, but unlikely.

Which means to me, if you can't afford to invest into your product(book), then there's no harm in making your own cover, using free beta readers for typos/editing, and all the rest of what is in the OP. Just be prepared not to move as many books and have a plan to upgrade when money becomes available. It doesn't mean you're a hobby writer versus a business author, just keep your expectations in check.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't invest in your product(book) if you have the money. It is better to get a pro-cover if you have no graphic and typography skills, and it is better to pay a professional to edit/proofread. Advertising is better than not advertising. There's a happy medium between bootstrapping and throwing 5k down on your first book.

I like how Patty Jansen explains the differences between essentials to pay for (and good ranges of prices for them) and non-essentials in her new self-publishing book. Invest what you can, when you can, and keep your expectations in check.

I don't want authors who have no money to publish not to. And I don't want authors who are publishing their book but are unsure if they should invest in a cover or editing or advertising not to invest in those things because they think they don't need to.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

It's not an either/or question.

Some authors bootstrap, and knock it out of the park. Others spend big on covers, proofreading, copyediting, etc., only to hear crickets.

It's really about improving your odds.

It's like asking a girl for a date. Could I succeed despite not having taken a shower, failing to put on deodorant, and neglecting to brush my teeth? Maybe, especially if I have a magnetic personality. 

But I'd improve my odds if I cleaned myself up and looked presentable.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I think professionalism is key, whether or not you're doing it as a hobby or for money. Every writer wants a reader, especially if you are publishing your work. There's no point in publishing if you don't want readers. We get readers by being professional. At least that's my 2 cents. So whatever you have to do in order to produce work that presents well.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Martitalbott said:


> So here's an example of a cover anyone could make, and this book is currently #5 on the bestseller list. Oh sure, I know this is a top selling author, but if he paid a lot for this cover, I'd be worried about him. http://a.co/h0lIVkT


I hate to tell you that this is a trad book and his publisher likely paid somewhere around 5k for this cover.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> If a newbie follows the "This is a business, so invest in your product!" advice, they could end up sinking a whole lot of money into something that will never sell well because you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The latter misstep seems like the worse of the two, to me. After all, you can always give a poorly covered, poorly edited book and a second life, but there's no recovering money spent on a story that's just irrecoverably bad.


A good editor should tell a new author their story isn't anywhere near ready for publication. Of course some (most?) editors won't do this and they just pocket the money, do a bit of editing and then return a manuscript that's still nowhere near ready for publication.

On the other hand, the author might not listen to the editor and go ahead and throw a few thousand bucks out the window anyway.

*All in all, this is the reality of the start-up business world*. People who don't even know how to cook buy a restaurant and go bankrupt with it. Others move to a foreign country and open a beach bar only to realize there are 9 others doing the same thing in the same area, and not nearly enough tourists to share between them. What differentiates us from those folks is our community. We can list all the pros and cons, share our experiences, and then let everyone find the truth for themselves. They don't have to go into it blind. And that's the reason I love this forum.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

A lot of correlation=causation happening in this thread.

There's no way to prove paying for professional editing (for example) will better your chances of being financially successful, just like there's no way to prove the opposite. It's all anecdotal.

Sure, a financially successful author can point to their financial success and say "I did 'x' and that's why I'm financially successful", but really it's impossible to know how much any one factor of their book's launch was the difference-maker because who's to say that same author wouldn't also have been just as successful by not checking one or two boxes on the ALL AUTHORS MUST DO checklist, such as paying a professional editor (again, just as an example)? 

Short of a split test or double blind test or some scientific breakdown, there's no way to know what particular factors = financial success for authors...so it's a guessing game...hardly something on which to base concrete hard-and-fast rules.

How do you know you wouldn't have been just as financially successful without paying for professional editing but while still paying for professional covers, formatting, blurb, marketing etc? You don't know, no one knows. Sure, it sounds sensible, it seems logical...but to state unequivocally that it's a must? No.

A lot of authors assume you must pay for editing because professional editing has been de rigeur for the trads that we've all grown up with for decades. As authors we've had it drilled into us that pro editing is just "how it's done". It's how our heroes books' are put out into the world. Then we see financially successful indies stating that they always spring for pro editing and we look at that and go "oh, pro editing is part of why they're successful", but again there's no way to know if that's actually true, it's all based on assumption. A good assumption? Maybe. Still, it's an assumption.

Sure, any given financially successful author can point to their 5 top selling books and their 5 worst selling books and say that their 5 top sellers were all professionally edited while their 5 least successful books were not. 

But even then, that still only counts as anecdotal evidence and doesn't prove anything because there are so many factors that go into what makes any given book a success and so many different aspects that you can point to outside of professional editing that makes a book take off versus the opposite. 

Yes, pro editing CAN be one of those aspects that makes a book successful, absolutely true, but to separate that one factor out and say it is THE reason? No.

The point is, there's no way to know whether or not paying for relatively expensive professional editing is the difference-maker when it comes to the financial success of a book. Same for all other aspects of indie publishing. There's anecdotes, there's guesses...but in the end you should base your own personal financial decisions on your own instincts and don't make the mistake of placing too much credence in the assumptions of others...including me.  

Financial success in this game is elusive and not even the big authors get it right all the time. If any one indie author KNEW ABSOLUTELY the how's and the why's that go into financially killing it every time out of the gate - outside of cheating - they'd do it each and every time they launch. There is no hard and fast way, there's educated guesses that sometimes happen to be right just as there is also coincidence and good/bad fortune.

Sure, those top selling authors guess at what's gotten them to where they are and they repeat what they did before, but there's no way to know what combination of what is the key driver behind their success. Just like there's no way to know a given approach will continue to work with each launch. Things change, markets change, approaches change. There's a lot of trial and error and everyone's mileage varies.

Recognize that, a lot of the time, the consistent top sellers got there initially based on a myriad of factors that most of them probably cannot FULLY quantify themselves even if they try and even if they say they know, often they don't. Recognize that many of those who tend to sell consistently well nowadays may do so because of an audience and a readership that they'd built on that initial non-fully-quantifiable foundation. But even that's a guess.  

Does this mean you cannot point to a book's beautiful cover and logically surmise that that cover's beauty is one key factor in that book's success? Of course you can make that assumption...it seems sensible, that assumption might even be bang on the money. It's quite possible that book's cover is the difference-maker. But can anyone say it is definitively the reason? No, it's all theory. 

It is impossible to say the beautiful cover is what did it for a book because there may be other factors that played even more of a role or played so much of a role that the beautiful cover wound up almost beside the point. Not every beautifully covered book sells. There's so much more to it than that...sometimes.   Just like, a book might succeed based on its cover alone and the editing didn't even play into the book's success...that also happens...sometimes. 

Point is, it's all just guessing. THERE IS NO KNOWING.

Likewise, does this mean you can point to the cleanliness of a manuscript and reason that the editing done on that book was a key factor in that book's success? Sure, it is more than plausible that the editing was the difference that made that book a financial success...but again, can we say it is THE definitive reason that said book succeeded? Nope. Again, we're talking theory here.

So, what do you do with all of this? Do you. Spend what you can on putting your work out there, or spend nothing. Listen to the financially successful authors if you want and determine for yourself how much stock you want to put into what they say and pick and choose from there what you want to emulate or what you can even afford to emulate. 

BUT don't for a second think you HAVE to do any given suggested thing to be a financial success in this business - regardless of who is telling you that you MUST - because honestly, no one really deep down knows what the "MUSTS" are...everyone sets up 'systems' and 'processes' and does their best through trial and error and makes a lot of assumptions based on all of it. That's likely your best path to, but again, that's for you to determine. I can't tell you definitively your best course of action. No one can. 

There are entire youtube channels and bestsellers lists full of self-publishing advice and more will continue to pop up and not one of them is the silver bullet because THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET. If there were, there'd be ONE BOOK, there'd be ONE VIDEO and that would be THE THING all indies would adhere to and voila, they'd be making a living from their fiction. It doesn't exist. Do you.

TLR - THERE IS NO KNOWING. Act accordingly.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> There are risks at both ends of the spectrum, IMO.
> 
> If a newbie follows the "Hey, you can do it all yourself!" advice, they might end up not selling what what could've been a very successful book, just because it looks too amateurish to attract attention and/or puts off readers with poor editing. If a newbie follows the "This is a business, so invest in your product!" advice, they could end up sinking a whole lot of money into something that will never sell well because you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The latter misstep seems like the worse of the two, to me. After all, you can always give a poorly covered, poorly edited book and a second life, but there's no recovering money spent on a story that's just irrecoverably bad.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of this... but covers and fixing typos are easier to change and improve than the actual work, so that gets talked about more than base craft level. Personally, I wouldn't want anyone to spend a dime until their craft is up to a point where people will want to pay them for their work, but I've found a lot of resistance when trying to say that aloud to people. We all want to believe that our stories are all amazing right out the gate, but... well...

So I guess I would advise if you want to try to be as sure as you can be of producing books people want to read, spend a few years writing lots of things, getting critiques from people who READ those kinds of things (not just any old reader, you want people familiar with the genre you are writing), and by the end of that you'll probably have work worth investing a few hundred into and hey... it'll have been a year or five, so you'll have had time to save up a few hundred to invest.

(and yes, I practiced what I preach (except the having money part, I used debt to fund my last chance at making this work because I was drowning in medical bills). I have six novels that will never see the light of day. Roughly 40 short stories that will also never see the light. Over 600 poems, most of which have never been read by anyone but myself. I stopped counting rejections from trad anthologies, publishers, and magazines after I hit 500 but I'm probably somewhere in the 600-700 range. All of this helped me get to the point that when I was broke, sick, and deciding to max out my last credit card to put wow-factor covers on my last-hope project and do it right w/editing etc... I knew that I could write work other people wanted to read, because I had already thanks to those years of rejections, the sales to trad magazines etc)

As for hobby... it's not a dirty word. There's nothing wrong with writing for a reason other than profit. I bow to Mr. Wonderful's wisdom from Shark Tank... he says that if you have been in a business for 2-3 years and aren't showing a profit, you have a hobby. And there are so many good reasons to write that have nothing to do with making money. It's okay to not maximize your potential in that way. Just manage your expectations in the returns and readership you'll achieve based on the decisions you make. I think a lot of us long-timers get a little frustrated by things like this because we see people posting post after post asking what they can fix to make money/gain readership etc and so much of that stems from not investing in the business and your books from the get-go.

Final point.. yes, nobody knows what it takes to be successful. But we do know how to increase the odds. I think that once you have all the boxes ticked (great books, wow-covers, clean editing, etc) that then it comes down to writing the kind of story that strikes a chord with your readership. And that just takes writing a lot of stories with the understanding that sometimes you'll fail through no fault of your own and continuing to improve craft, take your storytelling to new levels, listen to your chosen audience about what they want to read and figuring out how to make that your own, etc. I know a few writers who I think are one right book away from being huge hits, but they haven't written the killer concept yet. Some people have a gift for understanding what readers want, and that can't really be taught. The rest of us just have to keep paying attention and improving.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Lynna said:


> Warning: bold opinion piece ahead. I probably won't be responding to comments about anything I say because I have a book to finish and I'm behind, but I felt a burning desire to write this and I'm not exactly full of self-discipline today (or I wouldn't be here when I'm supposed to be writing).
> 
> The only reason I'm even in this business is because it's the kind of business I can do my own way. I do everything myself. That's the way I like it and if I couldn't do that, I'd find something else to do. It's not about need for me, it's about want. I've bought custom covers from pros. I haven't used one of them on my books. They were an exercise in conforming and when it came down to it, after money had changed hands (you'd think I would have learned after one time, but I didn't), they weren't good enough for me. I wanted something I had created, that I controlled, and those covers weren't that.
> 
> ...


I have zero idea who you are, but I heart every bit of this post (including the bit that I should be writing, no, actually, I should be re-doing my borked Mailerlite autoresponder).

One thing that bothers me a great deal about the self-publishing world is that as soon as you mention that you self-publish, the sharks come out. They're circling your wallet and offer you little shreds of hope that if you only bought this ad or re-edited your book, or spent more on an even more awesome cover designer, your books would start selling.

Some of it is one the side of simply providing a service, some of it is purely predatory, only the smallest minute step removed from vanity publishers, which we all love to hate so much.

I applaud the OP for taking us back to basics. YOU decide where you spend the money, but by all that's dear, if you spend, spend it wisely and don't spend it on that fickle and nebulous thing called "hope" where you absolve yourself from the responsibility of taking care of your own book by investing heavily in cosmetic stuff because someone told you that you should, while the book does not have the legs to support that investment.

Re. cover design, some books sell well with what I think are godawful covers, so what do I know. I defy anyone to produce that cover, for that it looks simple, it's well-designed, if not traditionally indie but with a more design-y flavour. Often tradepubs will put daring unusual covers on books because they also compete for book cover design awards.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> This is also published by Simon and Schuster and isn't his first book. Comparing covers of trade published books and indie published books is really comparing apples to oranges. It's not the same playing field. Neither is comparing someone who has been indie publishing for years to someone who just started.
> 
> Covers sell books. There are other ways to sell books, but many of those cost more money or aren't available to everyone. Even books that take off (and they are rare) with subpar covers still have covers that indicate genre and tone.
> 
> ...


It's the perfect example. It's a stupid green tree on a plain blue background. No talent wasted here, no matter who the author or publisher is. You could have made it and I certainly could have. Will his readers buy anything he writes no matter the cover art? Of Course, but that wasn't the point. The point is, how much did the publisher pay for this and is it the magic that sells his book? Nope.

On the other hand, it is different than the thousands of guys with no shirts, women in beautiful dresses, other worlds, dark covers trying to look scary. It's a trap, this, "what does it say about the genre" idea, because everyone ends up with the same old tired pictures.

I think it's more about color, but that's just me.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> So here's an example of a cover anyone could make, and this book is currently #5 on the bestseller list. Oh sure, I know this is a top selling author, but if he paid a lot for this cover, I'd be worried about him. http://a.co/h0lIVkT


Really? It bothers me more that you can't see why it's a good cover.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Martitalbott said:


> It's the perfect example. It's a stupid green tree on a plain blue background. No talent wasted here, no matter who the author or publisher is. You could have made it and I certainly could have. Will his readers buy anything he writes no matter the cover art? Of Course, but that wasn't the point. The point is, how much did the publisher pay for this and is it the magic that sells his book? Nope.
> 
> On the other hand, it is different than the thousands of guys with no shirts, women in beautiful dresses, other worlds, dark covers trying to look scary. It's a trap, this, "what does it say about the genre" idea, because everyone ends up with the same old tired pictures.
> 
> I think it's more about color, but that's just me.


That's one reason why we're better off hiring an artist to do the work. I'm not a designer, so my instincts are not always correct. I have thoughts on the thriller cover, but I'm not as confident about that. The "same old tired pictures" however, is about genre expectations. A cover is packaging, and should convey the product to the reader. It doesn't alter the story at all, only the reader's perception of it. Go against genre conventions at your own peril.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> Really? It bothers me more that you can't see why it's a good cover.


Me, too, and I really defy anyone to just slap that together.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2017)

There are no guarantees in being a writer, or anything else I can think of. If you invest into your work as would any other business will you see a profit? Maybe not. You want promises and sure things, talk to a con artist. You want sound practices that are proven effective, talk to writers who have a good sales record. 
I mean hey....for all I know the book could just be awful. If the writer isn't very good, money can't fix that. So maybe start with a bit of self-examination. In know, I know, how dare I suggest that the writer might suck? But in reality, that's often the case and often the main problem. So no. Don't spend your hard earned cash until you know at least that much.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Lynna said:


> Warning: bold opinion piece ahead. I probably won't be responding to comments about anything I say because I have a book to finish and I'm behind, but I felt a burning desire to write this and I'm not exactly full of self-discipline today (or I wouldn't be here when I'm supposed to be writing).
> 
> The only reason I'm even in this business is because it's the kind of business I can do my own way. I do everything myself. That's the way I like it and if I couldn't do that, I'd find something else to do. It's not about need for me, it's about want. I've bought custom covers from pros. I haven't used one of them on my books. They were an exercise in conforming and when it came down to it, after money had changed hands (you'd think I would have learned after one time, but I didn't), they weren't good enough for me. I wanted something I had created, that I controlled, and those covers weren't that.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I really wish we supported each other more. Truthfully, a lot of times I read posts on this site and I think that wow, if I had 3k to spend on a launch maybe I'd be doing better. But who knows? I've written short and haven't really promoted anything. That's been a kink in the process (although 2018 will be different so help me God!) What I'm saying is, it would be nice if others didn't assume that just because you don't hire professional editors doesn't mean you don't care about your work. Maybe you're a poor author, single mother, whatever, who doesn't have a lot of funds to work with. Where is the grace here? Where is the camaraderie? We're all on the same side.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Rosie A. said:


> Thank you. I really wish we supported each other more. Truthfully, a lot of times I read posts on this site and I think that wow, if I had 3k to spend on a launch maybe I'd be doing better. But who knows? I've written short and haven't really promoted anything. That's been a kink in the process (although 2018 will be different so help me God!) What I'm saying is, it would be nice if others didn't assume that just because you don't hire professional editors doesn't mean you don't care about your work. Maybe you're a poor author, single mother, whatever, who doesn't have a lot of funds to work with. Where is the grace here? Where is the camaraderie? We're all on the same side.


I don't know who said anything like that. Who said $3,000? Who said if you didn't spend you didn't care? Maybe someone did, but I didn't, and that wasn't my takeaway from other advice, either. My takeaway is that if you want to make a living, your best bet is to treat it like a business and invest some modest funds. If you don't, you're more likely to see hobbyist results. Whether you are satisfied with those results or not is a personal decision.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

MonkeyScribe said:


> I don't know who said anything like that. Who said $3,000? Who said if you didn't spend you didn't care? Maybe someone did, but I didn't, and that wasn't my takeaway from other advice, either. *My takeaway is that if you want to make a living, your best bet is to treat it like a business and invest some modest funds. If you don't, you're more likely to see hobbyist results. *Whether you are satisfied with those results or not is a personal decision.


Oh, no...$3k was just a number I pulled randomly out of my head!  Plus I've also read on these forums of authors who spend that amount when it all comes down to covers, editing, promotion, etc. And as to everything else...none of what I said had anything with what you said. Heh. Merry go round of words. I tend to be general...and I'm also in the middle of writing a frustrating chapter. It might not be so frustrating if I actually concentrated on it.

I absolutely agree with your part in bold. For me, it's come down to just how much I can afford. If I had more to spend and work with, then I might be doing better. But that's a comment on my end, not saying it for anyone else here on their books, if that makes sense.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Rosie A. said:


> I absolutely agree with your part in bold. For me, it's come down to just how much I can afford. If I had more to spend and work with, then I might be doing better. But that's a comment on my end, not saying it for anyone else here on their books, if that makes sense.


It does make sense. I spend more now than I did when I started. I think a good number for a new writer would be $500 for editing, $100 for a good pre-made cover, and $200-$400 for advertising at launch. I would cut advertising before I cut editing or the cover, and would advise learning formatting on one's own, since I think this is something that most people can figure out.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I think it depends on what your goals are. If you are producing a book that you hope and expect readers to pay you money for, and you want to be a professional about it... you are going to need to pay for some things such as editing and cover art, at the minimum.
> 
> Would you open a restaurant and ask people to eat off the ground out of their hands because you can't afford dishes yet? I would hope not, right? And if you did, you probably wouldn't expect anyone to actually eat your food, so hopefully you wouldn't be surprised when nobody wanted to come to your place for dinner...
> 
> ...


Absolutely.

If you can't afford anything, you can still publish your book. It need not cost a dime. However, like Anni says, this is a business and if you want to make money doing it, you usually need to make some kind of investment.

I do want to add that there is a concept of minimum viable product (I think Michael Anderle talks about it) in which you bootstrap your way to publishing and see how you do. Then, you adjust accordingly. If you do it all yourself and don't sell anything? Look at your product. Does the book need editing? Is the blurb compelling? Is it categorized properly? Is the cover genre appropriate so that the potential reader knows the book is what they want? If you tweak those elements and still don't sell anything, then maybe it's the book itself. Maybe get a developmental edit (expensive) or at the least, find some beta readers who will tell you where the book fails for them as readers of your kind of book. Then, revise and try again.

The great thing about indie publishing is that we can fall flat on our face and then get up, brush ourselves off, create a pen name and start all over again, using the things we learned when we fell.

As Mark Dawson says, there's never been a better time to be a writer!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I believe the advice here was meant helpfully. At least, I know most of the people giving most of the advice, and they are genuinely helpful. They're trying to tell people what they've seen work, from the perspective of having been at this with success, watching other people succeed, for five years or more. Look, if people didn't want to sell, they wouldn't post here and ask how to sell. Some of us see those posts and think, "That's not gonna work," but we're not allowed to say it. So some of us are trying to say, generally speaking--these are the things we see getting in people's way.

For the record, my first three books cost $300 total. For covers, because like many, many others, my graphics skills suck. I was a copywriter. I was a copyeditor, too. I was smart enough to figure out formatting. I was a pretty good writer who told a good story. I sure as heck wasn't a graphic artist. I spent maybe $100 more on advertising those first four months, then $100 on another cover. That was a different time, and the bar wasn't set as high as it is now in terms of professional presentation, but I still see people who've done great recently with minimal marketing.

But they had killer covers, great blurbs, a hooky title and premise, and a kickass book.

I'm saying, look at what you're good at, and if you can't tell what that is--if you can't tell whether you have a graphics eye, whether your prose is up to snuff, whatever--post here as others have done and ask. If you haven't had professional experience at whatever-it-is, though, you probably aren't ready to DIY to a professional level.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

MonkeyScribe said:


> Congratulations on the success. My points are more to be taken in general. The only problem I have with your specific comments is that there will be a lot of newbies who use them to justify wishful thinking about how to make a living. I want to focus on best practices. That's the part of this we can control and leads to success at a far higher rate than a more amateur/hobbyist approach.
> 
> To be fair, you did add a caveat.


"No one knows anything." - William Goldman

No one knows.

You never know if you might be the one in a hundred thousand or million who succeeds when you do it all yourself.

*shakes pom poms*


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> Really? It bothers me more that you can't see why it's a good cover.


Fascinating that you and I have such different opinions of the cover. Neither of us are wrong, just different. )


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Saying a new writer should spend thousands of dollars on their first book because successful writers do so is like saying a kid who wants to win motor races should buy a Ferrari because the people who win races drive them. The kid wouldn't have any idea how to control it and would be off in the grass on the first corner with a big repair bill.
> 
> Sure, if I was making a million dollars on each book, I'd farm out all the editing and covers and spend a bunch of money on advertising, because doing the work myself would make no sense when I could be writing the next book. But I'm sure glad I didn't do that when I was starting out, or I'd have quit long ago because I couldn't afford to keep losing money. After a few years and several books, I'm only just about at the point where I think I'd benefit from doing those things.


I don't think anyone is saying new writers should spend thousands though. I don't see anyone saying that. I see people saying things like "spend on editing and a pro cover and do whatever else you can do yourself if you want" which adds up to maybe hundreds and can likely be done cheaper than that if you are careful about shopping around, using pre-mades etc.

Seriously... this biz is so cheap to get into. 200-300 for a proofread, 50-100 for a good (probably pre-made, but some custom ones can be that inexpensive & still look good) cover... bam! you are in business. We're talking less than 500. Nobody is talking about spending thousands. Most of us still don't spend thousands most of the time even though we could afford to.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't see anybody saying thousands. I spent a hundred bucks each on my first books. On covers. 

You may well not sell many books even with a good cover--and a good title, and a good blurb. It's just that you're unlikely to sell many books without those things. I actually don't think titles get nearly enough attention. Cover + title--they work together.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

^^ Right, no one has said that. However, I was specifically referring to the launch threads on this forum where (and I could name the certain authors but will not do so out of respect; that's how clearly I remember reading their threads) they listed all their expenses and shot up into high ranks. Granted, I think...story first. They wrote stories people wanted to read. No argument there. However, they've gone on to list 1k for cover, 2-3k for editors, 1k for promotion, and etc. There was one author here on Kboards long ago who stated his budget for promoting his series was 10k. I'm...pretty sure I read that correctly but maybe I didn't. Anyhow, this is what came to my mind.

No one has specifically stated that we should spend thousands. So again, just an observation I've made over the past year or so I've been on this forum that some authors do spend several thousand launching a book. But if they didn't...would their books still shoot up the ranks? Who knows. Just like others here have said, no one knows anything.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> I agree with a lot of this... but covers and fixing typos are easier to change and improve than the actual work, so that gets talked about more than base craft level. Personally, I wouldn't want anyone to spend a dime until their craft is up to a point where people will want to pay them for their work, but I've found a lot of resistance when trying to say that aloud to people. We all want to believe that our stories are all amazing right out the gate, but... well...
> 
> So I guess I would advise if you want to try to be as sure as you can be of producing books people want to read, spend a few years writing lots of things, getting critiques from people who READ those kinds of things (not just any old reader, you want people familiar with the genre you are writing), and by the end of that you'll probably have work worth investing a few hundred into and hey... it'll have been a year or five, so you'll have had time to save up a few hundred to invest.
> 
> ...


Hear, hear on the hobby thing! I'm a hobby writer. Sure, I'd love to make it a career, but I'm too incompetent at actually finishing books for that. C'est la vie. It's an extremely fulfilling hobby, and one that adds to the family's coffers. Win-win.


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## firstdraft (Apr 22, 2017)

The key to being a successful indie is being able to understand ones short comings and actually knowing what works for a specific genre. 

Some skilled people can do everything on their own for sure, but knowing where you need help and how to do it on a budget will only cost you a little bit more. 

For cover art you need to be either skilled yourself or at least have a good eye for design. I see just as many bad paid for covers as homemade ones, although the homemade ones are often clearly worse. You need to know the best artist for the job or in some cases you can find the 1 pre made from 1000 that just works for you. 

A lot of best selling covers are not that artistically difficult compared to some of the cover artists work being engaged with on here. Learn to take a nice photo, learn to adjust a photo or use filters and learn to apply powerful and suitable typefaces.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Annie B said:


> Seriously... this biz is so cheap to get into. 200-300 for a proofread, 50-100 for a good (probably pre-made, but some custom ones can be that inexpensive & still look good) cover... bam! you are in business. We're talking less than 500. Nobody is talking about spending thousands. Most of us still don't spend thousands most of the time even though we could afford to.


I keep on thinking about the guy I know who started an (excellent) cafe. He had to take out an $80k bank loan. It's a ballsy move, and he's certainly succeeding because he knows his stuff and its a great cafe.... but man oh man, the pressure! He has to stay constantly staffed, constant produce, changing up the menu, all while providing an excellent service. And what happens if he fails and defaults on the loan?! That's not good _at all_.

Compared to just about every other business model out there, indie publishing is ludicrously cheap, even if you _don't_ do it on "the cheap".


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

I'd just caution anyone starting out: don't spend money you can't afford to lose WITHOUT quitting. 

My first three books cost me $100 each for covers and editing combined. I could have spent $1000 or more, on more expensive services, on promo... it wouldn't have sold any better. Why? Because I didn't know I was aiming wrong with the cover, trying to copy a British trad pub instead of American indies. I didn't know how to vet my editor and ended up with one who introduced more errors than they fixed. 

Because my losses were time, not money, I could justify trying again. And again. 

I recovered and re-edited but most of all, I didn't sit in a corner crying over $3k wasted when I already had crippling debt. It meant I had the chance to learn, and the money to try again, to tweak it, to learn. 

Those books will never sell 'well' because they're not tropey enough and I guess they just weren't good enough. But I have more books now, more skills,  and more opportunities. I've never had to go into the red to do it.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

For new authors I noticed that some are not aware that there is a very large amount of premade covers available (just Google premade book covers online), made by graphic designers.  It costs something but not that much, and will really make a big difference as opposed to using a free stock image with some text slapped on top.  So many authors have come to me throughout the years to say their home-made cover is really harming their sales and once they get a decent cover they see an increase in sales.


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## RRodriguez (Jan 8, 2017)

I don't think some people realize how privileged they sound. Publishing a book might  not be as expensive as other new businesses, as you can publish on "only" $3-400, but for some people that $3-400 is still a LOT of money. Struggling with finances and not being able to take out a loan (even a "small") one has no effect on how serious someone is about their writing. Calling something a hobby when a person is putting forth all the effort they can muster into a professional product IS insulting. If the book doesn't sell, it doesn't sell, but there's no need to add insult to injury by shrugging your shoulders and writing someone's book off as 'just a hobby anyway'. Do some people write as a side-project? Sure. But not everyone without the ability to pour in money (any money, not just thousands) is looking at their venture as a mere time-killer. In my experience, people aren't holding onto their money because they're trying to be cheap and cut corners-it's because they simply don't have it.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

RRodriguez said:


> I don't think some people realize how privileged they sound. Publishing a book might not be as expensive as other new businesses, as you can publish on "only" $3-400, but for some people that $3-400 is still a LOT of money.


That's is the reality of the business world, though. It's a cold, heartless thing that doesn't care about all the little fish who can't afford to swim in it. None of us are going to change that reality. It is what it is.

I don't have money to engage in stock trading. I'm interested in it, and I think I'd be good at it if I invested the time to learn how it works. But the stock market isn't going to change just so I can join the game, and complaining about the unfairness about it all wouldn't accomplish anything.

In short, there's no guarantee for anyone to make money from a startup business. If there was, billions of books (rather than millions) would get uploaded and KDP's servers would crash.


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## RRodriguez (Jan 8, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> That's is the reality of the business world, though. It's a cold, heartless thing that doesn't care about all the little fish who can't afford to swim in it. None of us are going to change that reality. It is what it is.
> 
> I don't have money to engage in stock trading. I'm interested in it, and I think I'd be good at it if I invested the time to learn how it works. But the stock market isn't going to change just so I can join the game, and complaining about the unfairness about it all wouldn't accomplish anything.


I didn't say the market was going to change. As I stated, if the book doesn't sell, it doesn't sell-for whatever reason that may be. But I don't see the point in sitting around and rubbing salt in the wound that if you don't have money then your chances of success are almost nonexistent. People aren't stupid-if we don't have money we already know the odds are against us. So instead you try as hard as you possibly can with the resources you have, and that's what I thought the original spirit of this thread intended to be. *Try your best.*


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

RRodriguez said:


> So instead you try as hard as you possibly can with the resources you have, and that's what I thought the original spirit of this thread intended to be. *Try your best.*


I don't think the thread veered off course. I haven't seen anyone suggest someone else should stop publishing because they don't have a huge budget.

But this is a thread aimed at new authors, who tend to be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and have unrealistic expectations. When those expectations shatter somewhere down the road, it tends to hurt. Besides, many of them don't know it's possible to make a bit of money with 0 production costs and without Amazon. Not that anyone ever listens to me when I bring it up...


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2017)

RRodriguez said:


> I don't think some people realize how privileged they sound. Publishing a book might not be as expensive as other new businesses, as you can publish on "only" $3-400, but for some people that $3-400 is still a LOT of money. Struggling with finances and not being able to take out a loan (even a "small") one has no effect on how serious someone is about their writing. Calling something a hobby when a person is putting forth all the effort they can muster into a professional product IS insulting. If the book doesn't sell, it doesn't sell, but there's no need to add insult to injury by shrugging your shoulders and writing someone's book off as 'just a hobby anyway'. Do some people write as a side-project? Sure. But not everyone without the ability to pour in money (any money, not just thousands) is looking at their venture as a mere time-killer. In my experience, people aren't holding onto their money because they're trying to be cheap and cut corners-it's because they simply don't have it.


Authors who quote hundreds of dollars for new authors to spend on each book are usually the ones making bank where hundreds on a book is nothing. If a book is only going to sell XXX amount of copies, don't go blowing a boatload on editing or beta readers or whatever cause you're going to run yourself way out into the red before you can make any profit at all.

I do think cover art is a must, and I think unless you see an AMAZING premade, custom covers are the way to go. But do your homework and shop around. Find a designer who is skilled / talented and not charging 500 dollars per cover. The cost of cover art is seldom to do with how good the actual work is, and more what the artist thinks they can charge for it. If you're expecting to make 5 - 10k on your next book release in the first 6 months, outlaying 500 bucks is small potatoes.

But if you're a nobody who has nothing on the market the chances of that book turning into a best selling overnight success are virtually zero.

Outliers will often put themselves in new authors shoes without realizing just how far the gap is between them. The truth of the matter is what you spend on each book you release could be the difference in making a profit, or running yourself into debt before you've even had a chance to figure out what you're doing.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The issue I see is that authors will pay for advertising, try to do cross promo, try for BookBubs, with their homemade covers. Which is throwing your money away. As we've seen in this thread, if you don't have a graphics eye, you may well not see that you can't do your own covers. If you don't have editorial experience, you may not see that your work needs editing. You probably need both things.

If you're going to spend money on ads, spend first on presentation. The most important marketing happens before you publish your book.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Not everyone can toss down $3-400. But the reality is that to make a living at this business, most people are going to need to go into it with some seed money. Compared to most other small businesses, that amount is very, very modest, but why should we expect it to be zero?

Do you think someone can be a plumber without owning some tools? Or become a Realtor without training for a real estate license, buying a domain and printing business cards, etc.? Start a catering business without getting a food safety permit and having some cookware? Where is the other business that has an entry point as low as this one?


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

But aren't the plumbers' tools just the equivalent of having a computer to write on and an internet connection for uploading?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

RRodriguez said:


> I didn't say the market was going to change. As I stated, if the book doesn't sell, it doesn't sell-for whatever reason that may be. But I don't see the point in sitting around and rubbing salt in the wound that if you don't have money then your chances of success are almost nonexistent. People aren't stupid-if we don't have money we already know the odds are against us. So instead you try as hard as you possibly can with the resources you have, and that's what I thought the original spirit of this thread intended to be. *Try your best.*


I don't see anyone saying that. I published my first book by saving and scrimping. I spent $600 on a cover, and $6 on a book on self-publishing. I spent $50 on the cover of my second book. I spent $250 on promotions. I broke even that year. In retrospect, I should have spent $50 on the first cover, but I didn't know any better.

I have seen people spend thousands to publish books that languish in the millions of Amazon's rankings. I've also seen people launch their first book on a shoestring and make more money than they ever imagined.

But--and this is a big but--in general it takes money to make money. Not thousands, but my best selling book cost me about $1000 to launch. $350 on a cover and the rest on promotions. If no one knows the book exists, they can't buy it.

And yes, you can write a book, edit yourself, cobble together a cover using Gimp, publish it, and become rich and famous. Some people get hit by lightning, too.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

cecilia_writer said:


> But aren't the plumbers' tools just the equivalent of having a computer to write on and an internet connection for uploading?


A machine for snaking out a clogged line is about $2,000 in and of itself, so I think it's a little more than that. But you raise a good point. People who write novels have _already_ invested a good sum of money, not even counting the hundreds of hours writing the book. We're not talking huge sums of money. A few hundred dollars. Isn't that worth it to give your book the best shot at success?

If you don't have it, you don't have it, of course, but in that case, it's going to be more of a hobby until you do.


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## AnnetteL (Jul 14, 2010)

One thing too many indies skimp on is craft, especially starting out. Anyone can publish, so weeee! And they put out their first attempt. I believe in having an apprenticeship because when you first start, you don't even know what you don't know. You don't know how, where, of if you suck, and how to fix it. You don't have a thick skin yet.

How much time that takes totally varies by the author, of course. It's the ones who don't bother really studying craft and becoming masters at what they do that end up giving the rest of us a bad name.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

MonkeyScribe said:


> Not everyone can toss down $3-400. But the reality is that to make a living at this business, most people are going to need to go into it with some seed money. Compared to most other small businesses, that amount is very, very modest, but why should we expect it to be zero?
> 
> Do you think someone can be a plumber without owning some tools? Or become a Realtor without training for a real estate license, buying a domain and printing business cards, etc.? Start a catering business without getting a food safety permit and having some cookware? Where is the other business that has an entry point as low as this one?


Exactly.

There is nothing shameful about the word hobby. If you feel that way, I'm sorry, but you are putting your own feeling into the word. Hobby just means that you aren't doing something with the goal of turning a profit on it. Hobbies will have different expectations and different requirements than businesses. That's the way it works.

If you are just starting out for this to be a business... you will have so much less heartache and headache down the road if you make that investment from the very beginning. I have one book that I did a home-made cover on (there were far less resources when I was starting in self-publishing) that I've since spent 1600 on various covers trying to find one that worked (I finally have quit trying to make a 7 year old book sell and moved on to what works lol). I had a chance to have a great cover for 300 when I started and I decided not to take that chance cause it seemed like so much money (it was! especially in 2010 for me). But I ended up spending more later, after the book had been out for years and lost a lot of chance at visibility and audience.

And if you think I don't know what it feels like to take money you don't have and invest it into a business you might never succeed at... you are so very wrong. I was 3 months away from homeless and drowning in medical debt when I finally got a clue about things, started looking at what actually worked for people who were successful, and spent credit card money (the last bit of credit I had) to fund 3 books. They were my last shot. I don't recommend being in that position, of course, I went full-time as a writer long before I should have for various reasons.

If you want this to be a business, treat it like a business. Know you will likely have a better shot at seeing profit if you invest and save/budget accordingly.

If you want this to be a hobby that maybe makes a little money sometimes, don't fret as much, though I would still recommend that you invest what you can because the nicer your books look re covers and editing etc, the more positive feedback you might end up with.

And for both hobby and business peeps- craft is king. It's king. Spend 90% of your effort on that. Seriously. Telling a great story is the foundation of everything.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

AnnetteL said:


> One thing too many indies skimp on is craft, especially starting out. Anyone can publish, so weeee! And they put out their first attempt. I believe in having an apprenticeship because when you first start, you don't even know what you don't know. You don't know how, where, of if you suck, and how to fix it. You don't have a thick skin yet.


We focus a lot on marketing here, but there's a lot of truth in this. One problem is that quality is subjective, and I'm frequently surprised to see something that looks pretty poor to me make tons of money. (Like Twilight/50 Shades level cash.)

But I do suggest that writers spend time reading books on craft and working on those elements that can be learned. That would make a big difference, in my opinion. I'm fortunate in that I started before indie writing was really possible, and so my earlier, terrible efforts will never see the light of day. But it's not like you leave a permanent stain if you quietly pull your old titles if you recognize that they're not up to snuff.



> How much time that takes totally varies by the author, of course. It's the ones who don't bother really studying craft and becoming masters at what they do that end up giving the rest of us a bad name.


Nothing you can do about that, and there's some bad trad stuff, too. I'd just focus on your own work and rest assured that the dregs remain largely invisible as poor sales and reviews push them out of sight in the virtual storefront.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

When I first self published, I didn't know what the heck I was doing, but I had read enough that I knew a good cover was a minimum. They say you can't tell a book by its cover but book covers can and do sell books. I paid for a pro cover for my first three books. The cost was $105 per cover. So I spent $315 for the three covers. I didn't pay for editing but I had my books beta read and I had a proofreader who did it for free. (I later paid to have all my books edited once I made serious money from Book 4)

That was it for costs. I didn't do any paid advertising but I did a lot of legwork on Goodreads and Facebook and Twitter to promote them. I gave a few thousand books away of the first book and that helped. In the first year, those 3 books earned $6177.97. So, I basically made back my initial investment and a tidy sum more. But my first 3 books were not a hit by any sense of the word. I wrote the books that I wanted to write (paranormal romance mish-mashed with urban fantasy) without thought to the market.










I pivoted, studied the erotic romance market, looked at the top books and I mean really really big sellers, and wrote my own version.

I spent $105 for the cover, $800 for an edit, and $25 for a sidebar ad on a popular romance book blog. So, $930 total expense.

Here's what that book made in its first year.










So, you can see how, even if your first books don't sell and you don't have a lot of money to invest, this business -- indie publishing -- is REALLY REALLY LOW overhead and minimal (minuscule compared to most businesses) investment to get started with the potential to make a WHOLE LOT OF MONEY if you publish a commercial book.


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

Yes - I can accept the idea of a writing apprenticeship more easily than I can accept needing to pay for other people's help - it's a question of control for me as well as a financial consideration. I've spent money in the past on writing workshops, getting a professional critique and research resources. I wouldn't necessarily advise people to have quite such a lengthy apprenticeship as I had - over 50 years! - but I do think there are some new writers who may be in too much of a hurry.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> There is nothing shameful about the word hobby. If you feel that way, I'm sorry, but you are putting your own feeling into the word. Hobby just means that you aren't doing something with the goal of turning a profit on it. Hobbies will have different expectations and different requirements than businesses. That's the way it works.


I'd give "hobby" an even more expansive definition: anything you pursue in a committed way that's not your profession, whether it's income-generating or not. For some people, their hobby is their true passion, and their job is what they do to put a roof over their heads ... and support their hobby. Writing is that way for me. I'm lucky that it covers its own costs, in my case, but I'd still do it, even if it didn't.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I was 3 months away from homeless and drowning in medical debt when I finally got a clue about things, started looking at what actually worked for people who were successful, and spent credit card money (the last bit of credit I had) to fund 3 books. They were my last shot. I don't recommend being in that position, of course, I went full-time as a writer long before I should have for various reasons.


Annie, you're my heroine.


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## IncorporealGhost (Nov 20, 2015)

Martitalbott said:


> It's the perfect example. It's a stupid green tree on a plain blue background. No talent wasted here, no matter who the author or publisher is. You could have made it and I certainly could have. Will his readers buy anything he writes no matter the cover art? Of Course, but that wasn't the point. The point is, how much did the publisher pay for this and is it the magic that sells his book? Nope.
> 
> On the other hand, it is different than the thousands of guys with no shirts, women in beautiful dresses, other worlds, dark covers trying to look scary. It's a trap, this, "what does it say about the genre" idea, because everyone ends up with the same old tired pictures.
> 
> I think it's more about color, but that's just me.


I believe anyone _could_ make that cover. *The distinction is knowing why that cover sells.*

You're right, it's not technically complicated. (I am a designer and marketer in my 9-5, so maybe my perception of difficulty is skewed.) But I would like you to read what Rosaline wrote about it. She clearly knows the "why" of why that designer chose such a simple design:


Usedtoposthere said:


> That cover follows genre conventions for thrillers and works with its title. It is selling the author and his branded look, and telling you what is different about this book at a glance (tropical location, signaled by colors and design).


It's a cover that signals to the buyer what is inside. The promises signaled by the cover (author, tropical, thriller) and the interior are aligned. The thing that kills me most about book cover flops is when it is a miscommunication of the story of the book. It doesn't matter if I like it or not. It matters if it works. An author's book cover is the first and best promise of what a buyer is going to get. If the cover is a bit amateurish, I argue that the reader who chooses it will not be surprised if the interior is the same. If the cover is immaculate but the interior is amateurish, they may be more motivated to leave a 1-star because they had expectations that were promised by the cover and those expectations were not met.

To address your point about the "same tired old pictures," to me that's a non-issue. If they like the genre enough to find the first cue of the cover to be tired, they will turn to the next sales opportunity, the title and/or blurb, and they will find the distinctions that will help them decide there. It is not a trap to use your cover to tell people what is in your book. It's a trap to go into it without trying to understand how covers can best communicate what's in your book.

I loved seeing the iterative progress of your book's cover, Ev Darcy. (If you missed it, she linked here: http://www.evdarcy.com/journal-1/2017/10/11/cover-art) Everyone has to start somewhere. The best thing about Indie Publishing to me is that we're able to make these decisions of how and when we're ready to start. And we're able to change and grow and iterate. The smart indies are the ones learning and growing as I believe Ev did. Work with what you have, pivoting where necessary, and continuing onward and upward.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

RRodriguez said:


> I don't think some people realize how privileged they sound. Publishing a book might not be as expensive as other new businesses, as you can publish on "only" $3-400, but for some people that $3-400 is still a LOT of money.


Just to chime in with regards to what I said earlier about the expenses being low... I totally get that the finances can be a restriction. That's why I had a side freelance gig specifically to pay for publishing stuff.

There are people working for hundreds of hours on a manuscript, pouring everything they've got into it, only to not get it proofread because of the cost. To me, that just seems like a shame because they could be blowing up their book's chances before they even get it up on Amazon. So while I acknowledge that I'm probably speaking from a position of privilege, not giving a book the best possible chance (by paying for editing, cover, etc) seems like a bigger risk to me than a few hundred bucks.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

RightHoJeeves said:


> Just to chime in with regards to what I said earlier about the expenses being low... I totally get that the finances can be a restriction. That's why I had a side freelance gig specifically to pay for publishing stuff.
> 
> There are people working for hundreds of hours on a manuscript, pouring everything they've got into it, only to not get it proofread because of the cost. To me, that just seems like a shame because they could be blowing up their book's chances before they even get it up on Amazon. So while I acknowledge that I'm probably speaking from a position of privilege, not giving a book the best possible chance (by paying for editing, cover, etc) seems like a bigger risk to me than a few hundred bucks.


You know, I'm starting to come full circle on this.

Nobody really knows how much this type of investment really pays off and how much it's necessary and how much it contributes to sales.

Many people, myself included, would very much like to see books with nice covers and good editing sell well, and books with crap covers and poor editing sit at the bottom of the heap, but there are too many examples to the contrary to indicate that it's not that simple.

If a book does well, is it because of a good cover and editing?

Hmmm, some of it may be, and especially a cover can draw people in. But a "good" cover equates a cover that appropriately indicates genre, not one that is artistically "good" (whatever that may mean). Bad editing can turn some people off, but how important is it really? People who care about proper spelling and grammar (myself included) love to bluster about how this is Very Important, but really how important is it?

When people come here and start threads about books not selling, the collective KB loves to p*ss on the writer's covers and editing, but if the writer improves this, will their sales suddenly be so much better, even if they re-launch the book? Mostly not.

Yes, you give yourself a better chance, but if it's going to go viral, peer-imposed quality matters so much less than the magic "it" factor.

What is the magic "it factor? Well, if anyone knew that, they'd be rich. Traditional publishers certainly haven't found it in over 100 years.

Edited to say:

I invest in covers and editing mostly for myself, because I can't live with myself if I know I've published a product that I could have made better, and I have to look at the covers on my website and if I think they're crap, I'm having a miserable time looking at them and cringing whenever I see them. I want to be able to look in the mirror and say: I am proud of my books.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> What is the magic "it factor? Well, if anyone knew that, they'd be rich. Traditional publishers certainly haven't found it in over 100 years.
> 
> Edited to say:
> 
> I invest in covers and editing mostly for myself, because I can't live with myself if I know I've published a product that I could have made better, and I have to look at the covers on my website and if I think they're crap, I'm having a miserable time looking at them and cringing whenever I see them. I want to be able to look in the mirror and say: I am proud of my books.


Indeed.

Further to the "no one knows anything" point - I think a writer has to go with their gut about covers & editing, to a degree. For me, personally, I get drawn to nice looking covers and I turned off by amateur looking ones. That's obviously not true for everyone, because as has been mentioned, plenty of "amateur" covers sell plenty (obligatory "who can say what is amateur" disclaimer). So given there is no real evidence to say why something is successful, one usually has to make decisions based on what they think they would do as a consumer.

If I know I like good covers, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to assume I can get away with ones I think aren't great.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Seriously, if a new author could do everything really, really, wrong, it would be me.

In 2010 wrote a little short story called Anna, put it on my website for free with no editing. Really, I'm a teachers kid and I can't spell (rebellion, you know). That was before Chrome spell checker, which I am always grateful for. The thing is, people loved the stories, gave me zero stars for editing (didn't even know what that meant at the time) and five stars for the story. So I wrote a bunch more short stories and posted one each month, until I had twenty badly written, error riddled stories. Know what else I had? 10,000 readers per month.

Along came this thing Called Kindle, so I divided the 20 stories into five volumes, threw together some covers, uploaded my word.docs, went to the Amazon community, and proceeded to start a fight with some mean, cruel, rude and unsympathetic people. They said my stories were junk and...well, you can imagine what they said.

I priced them at $.99 and between July and the end of the year, made over $1,000. I got some help and made a few changes (okay corrections). The second year I made the first book free and netted over $33k all with terrible cover art. The rest is history.

It can be done. I'm living proof. You can still read Anna free on my website and I still get 8-10 readers a day there, mostly from people in countries I'm not published in.

Before some of your freak, I'm not suggesting anyone should try this.

Marti Talbott


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

People keep comparing writing to jobs that require physical things, like being a plumber, or opening a restaurant, but it isn't the same thing. All you basically need is a computer. Those aren't that hard to get, you can find decent ones at thrift store for less than $50. Internet access, but I've seen writers who use free Wifi, or go to libraries. Covers? Canva. Formatting? Amazon accepts Word, and Open Office is free, so...

If you work hard, and are willing to learn -- even if that means you learn you can't do covers, or edit your own work, or whatever -- you can still make money being a writer. Sure, it's hard. It's always been hard. Always. But it's hard to do anything, so if that stops you, I don't know what to say. Just give up, I guess. But lack of money shouldn't be the factor that decides whether you can be a selling author. No matter what some here believe.

I've had to stop reading the thread because the elitism is getting overwhelming. Par for the course, sadly. I also think it's rather amusing that people are posting anonymously and dinging people for not putting money amounts in their posts. I don't know any of you from a monkey, unless I can see your books, so in the end your advice is not any more valuable than mine.

To those like me, who are taking this business seriously, making our own decisions and choosing our own paths, carry on. Just because someone wants you to give up doesn't mean squat, keep going. No one is guaranteed anything in indie publishing, no matter how much money they have to spend, or how serious they think they're being. It can all turn around in an instant -- and there are threads all over writer's forums from those who thought they had this shizz figured out, and now they are on the downward side of the mountain. Who knows? We might be the upwardly mobile ones while they're scrambling to turn it around again. Ain't that a kick in the pants?


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> You know, I'm starting to come full circle on this.
> 
> Nobody really knows how much this type of investment really pays off and how much it's necessary and how much it contributes to sales.
> 
> ...


This. 100%.



she-la-ti-da said:


> People keep comparing writing to jobs that require physical things, like being a plumber, or opening a restaurant, but it isn't the same thing. All you basically need is a computer. Those aren't that hard to get, you can find decent ones at thrift store for less than $50. Internet access, but I've seen writers who use free Wifi, or go to libraries. Covers? Canva. Formatting? Amazon accepts Word, and Open Office is free, so...
> 
> If you work hard, and are willing to learn -- even if that means you learn you can't do covers, or edit your own work, or whatever -- you can still make money being a writer. Sure, it's hard. It's always been hard. Always. But it's hard to do anything, so if that stops you, I don't know what to say. Just give up, I guess. But lack of money shouldn't be the factor that decides whether you can be a selling author. No matter what some here believe.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

Patty makes a very good point. I know when I'm reading a very engaging story, I can forgive all sorts of grammar mistakes: tense changes, missing words, homophones, comma crazies, indentation and line spacing madness. The one thing I can't get past is simplistic, stilted sentence structure that reads like an adult version of Dick and Jane. Of course, I'd love these books to get an editor at some point, but I was happy to get swept away by the story rather than never seeing them published because they were flawed.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I've had to stop reading the thread because the elitism is getting overwhelming. Par for the course, sadly. I also think it's rather amusing that people are posting anonymously and dinging people for not putting money amounts in their posts. I don't know any of you from a monkey, unless I can see your books, so in the end your advice is not any more valuable than mine.


I post anonymously these days because when I didn't, I seemed to get anonymous one stars on my books when I had this type of discussion. You can believe me or not, but I've sold over a million copies. I know at least two of the other pro-cover, pro-editing people in this thread from a private group I'm in, and they both make more money than I do. Again, you don't have to believe it.

To be clear on my position, I'm simply saying that best practices include investing some money in professional services. It's not the only way to do things, but it's the one that gives you the best chance of success, and worth scraping for if you can at all manage it.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

C. Gold said:


> Patty makes a very good point. I know when I'm reading a very engaging story, I can forgive all sorts of grammar mistakes: tense changes, missing words, homophones, comma crazies, indentation and line spacing madness. The one thing I can't get past is simplistic, stilted sentence structure that reads like an adult version of Dick and Jane. Of course, I'd love these books to get an editor at some point, but I was happy to get swept away by the story rather than never seeing them published because they were flawed.


Same here, the occasional typo doesn't bother me. Most of the books I DNF have issues on the developmental level - bland characters, unclear character motivations and incomprehensible decision making. Cliche plots and predictable twists, that sort of thing.

Good developmental editors are SO underrated. And no, beta readers can't fill in for a GOOD one.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

she-la-ti-da said:


> People keep comparing writing to jobs that require physical things, like being a plumber, or opening a restaurant, but it isn't the same thing. All you basically need is a computer. Those aren't that hard to get, you can find decent ones at thrift store for less than $50. Internet access, but I've seen writers who use free Wifi, or go to libraries. Covers? Canva. Formatting? Amazon accepts Word, and Open Office is free, so...
> 
> If you work hard, and are willing to learn -- even if that means you learn you can't do covers, or edit your own work, or whatever -- you can still make money being a writer. Sure, it's hard. It's always been hard. Always. But it's hard to do anything, so if that stops you, I don't know what to say. Just give up, I guess. But lack of money shouldn't be the factor that decides whether you can be a selling author. No matter what some here believe.
> 
> ...


Then I'll compare it to being a musician. You can certainly buy an old beat up guitar and learn to play. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need pro equipment. Unless you're REALLY that good, and few are. Musicians save up for years to buy what they need. In the meantime they practice, take lessons, and get better. And like being a writer, most play for the enjoyment of playing. Only a small number are good enough to turn professional. 
There is a reason some sound elitist. Being a novelist is an elite profession. Any group of friends can get together and play a game of football or baseball. Only the best of the best make it to the NFL or MLB. The uncomfortable truth is that most writers simply don't have the chops. Even if they spent thousands and thousands of dollars on a release, it wouldn't matter. Who *is *good enough? That's not my call. Nor am I qualified to judge. I know *I *am not because I tell myself this. Agents, publishers, and most importantly fans tell me. Enough so that I make a very good living. 
As for proof - Like Moneyscribe, I know better than to post publicly. I make anywhere from $250,000-$400,000 per year depending on the year and how much I am able to produce. If you want to believe me fine. If not, that's fine too. Either way.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Whenever this sort of topic comes up on this forum there is always going to be the same response from authors who put their money down and paid for a professional everything (editor, proofreader, cover designer, formatter).

The OP was just making a point that I see posted on reddit and other sites all the time, that you can do it for free or with a little investment. Just because you spend hundreds on a cover, an editor etc, that doesn't mean your book will sell. I can point out dozens of authors who have invested money and their books just don't sell. It might come down to the basics, write a good story in a popular genre.

Not everyone can save for months or years, not everyone can get a credit card, borrow money off a relative, work overtime or sell some stuff in their home. Some people have very little extra money, nothing to sell, a poor credit rating, a bunch of bills on the table but they have this dream to write.

There are authors who sell their books out of the trunk of their car or on the streets.

_Lisa Genova sold her book 'Still Alice' out of the trunk of her car
Relentless Aaron sold his books on the streets of New York _

There are many different ways to 'make it'.

I can show you a bunch of books that have numerous typos and clearly homemade covers and they are selling.

I mentioned it before, there is one author who has always ranked high but her books were so hard to read (IMO). Run on sentences and typos were her speciality. Cheap homemade covers too. She's been doing this for 4 or 5 years now. Her recent covers look a little more professional but clearly her readers don't care. She delivers and she entertains.

A plumber, restaurant owner, singer or dancer usually has their name and face out there and it can be easier for people to remember their first failed project or business.

If your book does not sell or you get a string of poor reviews, you can always change your pen name and try again.
You can always pay for an affordable proofreader today and get your books edited at a later date. At the least work with some Beta readers and if you cannot make a cover, find a friend or a graphics student who can make you a cover for a reasonable price.

As others have mentioned there is free software, free sites to make a cover (canva), free tutorial videos on Youtube etc....


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Been reading through this, and a lot of good points made... but in the end I agree with Patty.

More importantly, I think the thing that everybody short changes is not how much you have to invest in money, but how much you have to put into the learning curve.

_Write your own book?_ Heck yeah, but you have to learn your craft for it to be any good.
_Publish it yourself?_ There's a lot more to it than pushing a button. A lot of judgement to learn.
_Do your own cover?_ You may need design skills, and certainly need to learn what works no only for books in general, but for your books in particular (because your books will be different in some way)
_Edit your own work?_ See "write your own book"; that's a whole new level of craft. (And even judging an editor or crit partner or whatever takes a little experience.)

The list goes on. You do have to invest, and money is probably the cheapest way to go, unless you happen to already have a bunch of the skills for some other reason. But... if you are writing something that doesn't tend to sell well, you may be better doing it yourself because you'll never get your investment back anyway.

Camille


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

daringnovelist said:


> Been reading through this, and a lot of good points made... but in the end I agree with Patty.
> 
> More importantly, I think the thing that everybody short changes is not how much you have to invest in money, but how much you have to put into the learning curve.
> 
> ...


THIS.

Good editing doesn't guarantee huge sales numbers - it's still possible to get the marketing side of things wrong, find no audience, or to be plain unlucky - but it's so, so helpful for learning craft. And will help reduce editing cost for future books since the author now knows how to avoid most mistakes and how to weave a more compelling story.

I'd also like to add that while I sometimes see unedited first novels with homemade covers hit it out of the park, they tend to remain *one hit wonders*. Future books by the same author tend to not sell nearly as well.

Like this one. I know the author, and he deeply, deeply regrets not getting his first novel properly edited from the beginning. https://www.amazon.com/MageLife-Tale-Punch-Clock-Magelife-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B00SPA212W


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

Here's the thing...if it was hobbyist issues like character development, dialogue, plotting, world building, etc. it would be one thing. "How do I do this for a living?" is a "pro" question asked for only one reason. So don't get shocked and offended when actual professionals who are where you are trying to get answer honestly.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

There are only a few hundred authors in the world earning $250K plus on Amazon, and only about 100-150 are indie or hybrid.

http://authorearnings.com/report/may-2016-report/

At least four of them have commented in this thread. That's some pretty high level advice. They (we) aren't telling you to sink thousands of dollars into your first release. We are saying that if outside harsh sources are telling you that you have a book that could really sell, you have a much better shot if you can invest a few hundred dollars.

I didn't start out at this rich, that's for sure. Like many others, I was sick and not working when I wrote my first books. It was scary to spend any money on them. The $300 I spent on my first three covers was the best investment I ever made. It cost me very little to break out, but that was a different time (autumn 2012). 2010 and 2011 were even easier. It is MUCH more competitive out there now, especially in a huge genre like contemporary romance. Everybody struggles. The big girls in my genre are putting out 6-14 books a year. I'm doing 3 or 4. Many are spending 10-40k/MONTH on advertising. I'm spending maybe 1k/month. I have to up my game.

I hope I am the last thing from elitist. My first novel was my first fiction ever--and I mean I'd never even written a short story as a kid. (We didn't used to have to be creative in school, fortunately for me). Everybody turned it down. I said, "What the heck" and published those first three pieces of fiction myself with that $300. They've made I guess about $500K now all told. But yeah, they were my first efforts. I had been a copyeditor for a long time and I had good betas. I still struggle hard for story ideas and plots after 24 novels.

It's a very, very competitive market. Yes there are still huge breakouts (and not just when I'm finishing a book and forget to wash my face.) Yes some people can make 30 or 50k a year without spending much. Your chances are much better if you have a professional looking product. If you want to give your book a shot, try whatever you can do to present it well.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

"You can do all of this on your own"

and

"Best practices include professional editing and a professional cover"

are not contrary statements. Here, I'll show you:

"You can do all of this on your own, but best practices include professional editing and a professional cover."

The OP is correct. And so is everybody else.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

GeneDoucette said:


> "You can do all of this on your own"
> 
> and
> 
> ...












Gene wins.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> Here's the thing...if it was hobbyist issues like character development, dialogue, plotting, world building, etc. it would be one thing. "How do I do this for a living?" is a "pro" question asked for only one reason. So don't get shocked and offended when actual professionals who are where you are trying to get answer honestly.


Yes. Very much so yes. But what about working one's way up towards a professional standing?

Maybe some here are concerned about being judged as not being serious about their work because they haven't hired out help due to finances. I don't think anyone here can--or IS--judging in that regard. At least it hasn't seemed that way from what I've read. The thing is, I agree with both sides. Building a business takes time. Gaining traction/readers takes time. In that time, we can only do our best to put out the best product we can over and over again. I started with an expensive cover for Widow that did not hit certain expectations. It had a couple on the front. It had a somewhat historical looking background. But the title has done a bit better since the change of cover (and other reasons). I just kept tinkering with it and my other titles, which I know have zero reviews but that's because I haven't gone out of my way to score reviews...also I believe in organic at this point. I'm not selling enough to bring reviews in, really.

But I'm still serious about my craft. I love writing. Always have and always will. Someday, I know, just know, that it'll happen where I'm making a living but it's years down the road for me because I'm realistic of what I can spend right now. Maybe others here feel the same way: that professional level is something to work towards. When I think of professional, I think of a nicely wrapped package that screams value. As Patty Jensen mentioned, looking at your books and being proud of what you put out there.

The thing is, yes, we can do it all for free. Some people don't have a lot of money. I'm lucky to have been able to save before I stopped working due to injury. I was blessed. But I still got so so so much wrong! Wrong covers! Wrong editor! Wrong everything right at first and there's still mistakes on my manuscripts due to choosing an improper editor. You know what? I tossed money down the drain and it taught me a valuable lesson. Spending money just because isn't the way. Money needs to spent wisely. Ultimately though, I do agree that spending money on services to make your product look professional is very important IF and only IF you cannot make it look professional yourself. For example, Usedtoposthere writes her own blurbs. Wish I could pay her to write mine because I surely would.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Here's the thing:

As one of our anonymous pros has pointed out -- not very many people are making big money at this, but we have a larger than average number of them posting here.

HOWEVER...

Let's just point out that of all the people doing it exactly right? Not very many of them are making big money either. Probably not even a higher percentage of the average population.  However, those doing it right are likely to have a higher percentage of those making a middling amount of money.  

Doing it right is kind of like having top equipment in sports competition: A study done on skiers found that if you ranked the success of people and then looked at the equipment they used, you'd find that the very best athletes had older, less up-to-date equipment (and of those who had the best, it was because a sponsor gave it to them AFTER they started winning). However, their equipment was all good enough for professional competition. The middle of the pack tended to have the very best equipment, though some of them have awful equipment.  Those doing that well with awful equipment, though, are on their way up and will likely upgrade when they get the chance.  Those at the back of the pack had the worst equipment, though some had great equipment.

And it does seem to shake out that way with any enterprise.  

The one thing that is absolutely true: landing at the top of the pack on the first try is EXTREMELY rare, even when you are utterly perfectly prepared, and do every thing exactly right.  On the other hand, even if you start out completely wrong, you can always work your way up.  You can fix things. You can replace covers.  You can get editing. You can ditch your old books and write new ones. You can use a pen name, if you screwed up so badly that your reputation is wrecked.

So ultimately, if you want to do everything yourself, and make your own mistakes, you could always START with a pen name, so then you can easily start over if you totally screw up. (If you don't screw up, you can ad a "writing as" to your pen name books later if you like.)

Camille


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Let's just point out that of all the people doing it exactly right? Not very many of them are making big money either.


I'll agree with that! It's a rough business. There aren't many that are harder to break into. If you want an easier path to financial success, try patient, savvy real estate investing. You definitely have to enjoy writing for its own sake to want to make a go in this.

Speaking personally, I started writing and submitting in high school, and probably earned $10,000 (before expenses!) over two decades. It was only in early 2011 when I start making real money at this. And I was working hard. Eight novels and 110 short stories before I indie/hybrid published.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I just thought of something. Another poster here mentioned how music artists continually invest in better equipment as they progress in talent/skill. 

As an old (and rabid) Aaliyah fan, I thought of when she started out super young and money was invested on her development as an artist. Becoming a pro like that not only takes years, but it takes a lot of money: just the right equipment for tone and type of music that's being performed. Image. Marketing. It's the same with writing, I think. Over the spread of time, continually investing in learning and honing your craft, getting better covers and etc will help bring out your talent. People will pay attention because you have a sharpened, professional product. I guess this is where I ultimately stand: putting out a professional product is #1 and quite honestly, that begins with the craft!


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

No successful book ever sold bunches because it was edited well. But I'll bet there are more than a few books languishing in the bad ranks that could have sold bunches if they hadn't been so full of sloppy writing. Betcha a Coke.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Shelley K said:


> No successful book ever sold bunches because it was edited well. But I'll bet there are more than a few books languishing in the bad ranks that could have sold bunches if they hadn't been so full of sloppy writing. Betcha a Coke.


The writing is ultimately what we're selling.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't know. My first three books are still most readers' favorites, and there's no doubt I'm a more skilled writer now than I was when I wrote my very first novel. But that book is still my best seller--in the US, in German translation, and in audio. Could be that lots of people read it, though, and didn't go on because it WAS my first fiction. I certainly might have done better if it hadn't been. It hit the sweet spot for a lot of readers too, though. It's all a fairly mysterious alchemy.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

In my opinion, the most important factors in becoming a consistently good seller are: STORY and VISIBILITY.


Figure those out and Bob's your uncle. And can you 'figure those out' for free? Maybe.


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## Travelian (Jun 1, 2017)

Well, since everyone else is sharing their 2 cents, I will too:

1. Indie is the exact opposite of one-size-fits-all. 
2. The OP is right. You can DIY everything for free. But if you're a newbie going the DIY route, asking for feedback can save you a lot of grief.
3. If you have the upfront money and lack the requisite design and editing experience, devoting your time to your writing is as good a choice as any. Especially in an indie environment which rewards launching books quickly.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

Rosie A. said:


> Yes. Very much so yes. But what about working one's way up towards a professional standing?
> 
> Maybe some here are concerned about being judged as not being serious about their work because they haven't hired out help due to finances. I don't think anyone here can--or IS--judging in that regard. At least it hasn't seemed that way from what I've read. The thing is, I agree with both sides. Building a business takes time. Gaining traction/readers takes time. In that time, we can only do our best to put out the best product we can over and over again. I started with an expensive cover for Widow that did not hit certain expectations. It had a couple on the front. It had a somewhat historical looking background. But the title has done a bit better since the change of cover (and other reasons). I just kept tinkering with it and my other titles, which I know have zero reviews but that's because I haven't gone out of my way to score reviews...also I believe in organic at this point. I'm not selling enough to bring reviews in, really.
> 
> ...


The thing *really *is that most writers are not very good. Being a cool person isn't enough. The dirty little secret that everyone avoids is that 99.9% of people who write do not possess the skill or talent to be anything other than a hobbyist. It's a dream. A wish upon a star. But in the land of dreams, you can't impose reality. Do that and you're banned. Look to your left, then to your right, then in the mirror. None of you will sell more than a handful of books. Click on the "publish" icon until the end of time. The results will never change....except for a one or two of you. And that's it. One or two. That's who will make it. Disagree? Prove me wrong.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> The thing *really *is that most writers are not very good. Being a cool person isn't enough. The dirty little secret that everyone avoids is that 99.9% of people who write do not possess the skill or talent to be anything other than a hobbyist. It's a dream. A wish upon a star. But in the land of dreams, you can't impose reality. Do that and you're banned. Look to your left, then to your right, then in the mirror. None of you will sell more than a handful of books. Click on the "publish" icon until the end of time. The results will never change....except for a one or two of you. And that's it. One or two. That's who will make it. Disagree? Prove me wrong.


This post has condescending down to a T.

Maybe I'm one of those people who will "never make it" because I don't make 250k on Amazon. I make a liveable wage off my writing and I haven't the faintest freaking idea who you are, but this sort of condescension is probably why that is necessary.

It's true that few people will make it, whatever your definition of making it is, probably earning 250k on Amazon and you look down even on those who support their families with a midlist income. So few "make it" by your shifting goalposts. Seriously. My definition is different: if you make enough money to support yourself or replace your previous income, you've "made it".

Yes, even that is hard, but it's because many people lack the grit to keep working at it. They lack the patience necessary to improve themselves or to angle out for bits of luck that may come their way. Or they just don't have the time. Not because their innate talent isn't enough.

You know, this business is hard enough without entitled, self-declared anonymous bestsellers pissing on everybody. This is not advice, although there is plenty of that in this thread. This is condescension, plain and clear.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

On the other hand, it might work. You can try it and see. Sometimes, the dream DOES come true. Take your best shot. Give your work every chance you can with whatever you've got. And see.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

jaehaerys said:


> In my opinion, the most important factors in becoming a consistently good seller are: STORY and VISIBILITY.


And without visibility story doesn't mean squat.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> This post has condescending down to a T.
> 
> Maybe I'm one of those people who will "never make it" because I don't make 250k on Amazon. I make a liveable wage off my writing and I haven't the faintest freaking idea who you are, but this sort of condescension is probably why that is necessary.
> 
> ...


Don't let people like him/her get to you. You and I know better, we've followed in a enough footsteps to know truth from fiction. The difference is, we listened and others didn't. Just like you, I'm not a bestseller, but I make a nice living and that's good enough for me. It's the old 'pity pot' thing. Either writers wallow in it or they climb out.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> The thing *really *is that most writers are not very good. Being a cool person isn't enough. The dirty little secret that everyone avoids is that 99.9% of people who write do not possess the skill or talent to be anything other than a hobbyist. It's a dream. A wish upon a star. But in the land of dreams, you can't impose reality. Do that and you're banned. Look to your left, then to your right, then in the mirror. None of you will sell more than a handful of books. Click on the "publish" icon until the end of time. The results will never change....except for a one or two of you. And that's it. One or two. That's who will make it. Disagree? Prove me wrong.


You see, this is where you and I depart.

Instead of talking about "good" I prefer to talk about "commercial" or "marketable".

I've seen books that I thought were pieces of [deleted] making scads of bank. I've seen books that I thought were the bee's knees sell diddlysquat.

So, obviously, "good" in the sense of "quality" is not applicable when it comes to a market based on personal taste and personal preference. What is applicable is whether a book has a _market_ big enough to make a person a side income, a nice income or riches beyond compare.

Some books may be "good" to only a few people while others may be "good" to millions.

The thing is that today, it is easier to get your book in front of potential readers than ever before because of the digital marketplace. It used to be that slush readers and then agents and then publishing editors and then publishing boards decided whether your book would get in front of readers.

Today, it's pretty much all up to you. You have to write it and unless you can afford to pay someone, you have to edit it and format it and get a cover and write a blurb and upload it to a retailer and then promote it. You can do that well or not so well. You can spend a lot of money or a little money or no money at all doing it.

Most indie books do not sell a lot of copies. But today, if any individual wants to try, they can write and publish a book easier than at any time in the past.

Do it the best you can. Give it your best shot. You may be one of those who writes a book with a large market / large audience and succeed in getting it in front of that audience. If you can and do, it's a great life.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

We get a few anonymous success stories here. I don't pay much attention to that. I mean, really, we're virtually all writers of *stories*. Who among us couldn't contrive such a tale if there was no way for our captive audience to check it out?

I will pay attention to their advice, however, same as that of everyone else, and measure it according to its substance. I just won't be impressed by the vague boasting of self-proclaimed big invisible fishes, the sometimes advantages of anonymity notwithstanding.

But I will be entertained. 

That said, know your limits and abilities when you decide whether hiring someone is better than DIY. Because it's your money and you time that you are weighing. Anecdotal evidence of "this crappy cover hit the lists" and "this error-free narrative tanked" don't help with that decision. Because its a crap shoot.

There are several documented ways to ensure a successful publication. None of them work.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> The thing *really *is that most writers are not very good. Being a cool person isn't enough. The dirty little secret that everyone avoids is that 99.9% of people who write do not possess the skill or talent to be anything other than a hobbyist. It's a dream. A wish upon a star. But in the land of dreams, you can't impose reality. Do that and you're banned. Look to your left, then to your right, then in the mirror. None of you will sell more than a handful of books. Click on the "publish" icon until the end of time. The results will never change....except for a one or two of you. And that's it. One or two. That's who will make it. Disagree? Prove me wrong.


Well, I'm not sure if this was specifically aimed at me or what, but I respect your right to an opinion. In a way, you're right. Many of us are suckers lost in fantasy worlds of our own making. But who cares? It matters little to me what anyone else does with their own career and life. Making it is an individual thing. For me, it means never giving up until the day I die. But that's because I've always written and tbh, having the chance to put my work in front of readers without spending years querying is already making it in my book.

This isn't American Idol. We do this for the love of writing for crying out loud.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> We get a few anonymous success stories here. I don't pay much attention to that. I mean, really, we're virtually all writers of *stories*. Who among us couldn't contrive such a tale if there was no way for our captive audience to check it out?
> 
> I will pay attention to their advice, however, same as that of everyone else, and measure it according to its substance. I just won't be impressed by the vague boasting of self-proclaimed big invisible fishes, the sometimes advantages of anonymity notwithstanding.
> 
> ...


I know who all those posters are (the ones who are selling a lot). They're legit. Of course, I could just be saying that, too. 

I believe all of us used to post under our pen names here. The problem is that KBoards can be hostile to people who sell a lot, and most have left. The ones who still post sometimes tend not to do it under their names, with some exceptions. It just gets old after a while to be told it's all luck, etc., and that everybody's opinion about marketing is equally valid whether they sell $50 or $500,000 a year. (The last thing that happened to me.) Publishing isn't recreational soccer, and not everybody gets a trophy. Maybe some people are just on the wrong team or whatever, but if so, it's good to find that out. As somebody who's done well, I've been fortunate to get some good advice along the way. (And some advice that didn't work out, even though it worked for others. Such is life. This isn't an easy business.)

(And before people jump in to say that, "That isn't why big names leave! They just get too busy!" etc.--Yeah. It is why.)

For anybody who wants to read hard truths and best practices without any sugar coating and without anonymity, I'd recommend Russell Blake's blog, and Jana de Leon's and others' _The Naked Truth About Self-Publishing_ (which is free, I believe). Neither of them post here anymore, but they used to, and they're both very successful writers and savvy businesspeople. I've also heard great things about David Gaughran's self-publishing books.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

To clarify, when I say "good books" I mean "books people want to read" which is my own definition of good and might not be yours. That's okay. As I've said multiple times, it all depends on what your goals are. Someone who needs to make 50k a year to survive/support their family is going to have different goals and expectations and need to do things differently than someone who doesn't need to make 10 bucks even. Same with someone who needs to make 250k.

The reason I even posted in this thread is because I think a lot of people starting out want to make some money at this and, as others have said, best practice for having a shot at doing so is being able to put out the most professionally produced books you are able to.  There's no guarantee you'll make 1k or 10k or 100k, but having good editing and formatting and a genre-specific professional cover up those chances. Those are easy things to control, too, and to change and improve if you aren't getting the results you want, which is why I think most of the advice centers on those things. Craft is harder to nail down, but if you have the readership you want and they are loving the books you write, good chance you've nailed enough of the craft aspect. If you don't have those things... it might be the book, it might be the presentation. Only way to know is to change things up and the simplest things to improve, as I just said, are things like description, cover, editing etc. If even those changes don't get you to your goals, then it might be the book and you might be best served writing something new and taking another shot with what you've learned.

I just see a lot of people follow the do what you can now advice and end up with years of frustration because they aren't achieving their goals, which is why I pointed out that if you want to do this as a profession, if you expect humans to pay you money and time for your work, that it might be a less frustrating and better plan to make sure your presentation is as professional as possible, and that will likely cost some (but not necessarily a lot of) money.  You've spent a lot of hours of your precious time already writing the book(s)... why not spend a little money to make sure they have the best chance out of the gate, if readership and profit are a part of your long-term goals?

I am not anon. I don't put my books in my sig for a few reasons but I'm easy to find and it is easy to see what I've done and what worked and didn't work for me since I talk about it multiple places. And I am pretty rabid about presentation and pricing etc mattering because changing up those things literally made the overnight difference for me between drowning in debt and making six figures. So... I can only offer my own experience and my own data to back up what I say and hope that it maybe helps someone make a decision for themselves about their goals and needs.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I know who all those posters are (the ones who are selling a lot). They're legit. Of course, I could just be saying that, too.


I do, too, including ^^^, and she sells. A lot.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

OK, well, that's my best advice. I always say I've had enough, and then I try again, but I hope now that I'm done. Sorry it wasn't helpful. 

(Annie said it better anyway.)


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> This post has condescending down to a T.
> 
> Maybe I'm one of those people who will "never make it" because I don't make 250k on Amazon. I make a liveable wage off my writing and I haven't the faintest freaking idea who you are, but this sort of condescension is probably why that is necessary.
> 
> ...


Condescending? Since when is the truth condescension? There is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist. There is nothing wrong with having dreams. But dreams are not reality. When authors who are at the top of their game, and I wish you well one day getting there, tell you what you should do, and those who have nothing but time on forums as experience claim they're wrong and contradict them, you don't want truth. You want reassurance. 
I have none. Being a writer for a living is hard. Unless you have the talent it is impossible. Period. Doing it for fun is rewarding and wonderful. But then that only takes determination...not talent. Don't ask questions if you are afraid of the answer.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I know who all those posters are (the ones who are selling a lot). They're legit. Of course, I could just be saying that, too.


I don't know who they are, (though in some cases, I can guess) but I believe at least some of the people posting anonymously are making as much money as they claim. And I always try to make my responses take them at their word about that.

To me, it doesn't really matter, and to cast aspersions on their unknown credentials is irrelevant and detracts from the discussion. Because in the end, their sales doesn't really tell you how good their advice is.

To go back to the sports analogy: the big money stars are not always the best coaches. They can't see themselves as well as others sometimes. They are often so heavily focused on what they do, that they can't really see how it compares to what others do. So even when they tell you "Do this, don't do that" they can't see whether that helps you. All they can say is: "This is how I do it. This is how it feels to do that."

Often, all you hear from them is repetition of the same advice you get from everybody. They followed that advice, and because they succeeded, they believe it is true, but it could be something unique to them.

That is one way to evaluate advice from pros, btw: if everything they tell you is exactly what everybody else says, it's likely they haven't really dug into what has made them successful.

In the meantime, sometimes the keen observer on the sidelines -- the coach -- can see that they did that no one else does. This is why the top players seldom make good coaches. Great coaches are often mediocre players -- but they are thinkers and communicators.

Or you may get good advice from the lucky idiot too. For instance: Sometimes that goofy newbie who INSISTS on giving out stupid advice is actually giving insight into readers who love your genre. (This applies more to writing advice than business advice.) You don't want to do exactly what they ask for, but you should listen to them because they are telling you what matters to them as readers.

Or, for that matter, the person who tried all that great advice and failed utterly can help you sort out advice too.

Given that we are all different, we all have different goals, different audiences, or different ways of learning, it's best for the beginner to weigh all advice on its own merits.

So how to you tell what's good and bad advice?

First, know yourself. Some of us lean toward advice that we want to believe is true and go astray. Others are so fearful of being led astray by promises that we lean too far in the other direction... and we still end up led astray.

Then think it through: Does it make sense? Does it fit with your goals? Is it something you can implement? Does it take advantage of your strengths (or strengthen your weaknesses)?

Does it sound like fun? (this question is often overlooked)

And if you can't tell, seek more information. Test it for yourself, or just read thorugh more threads on KB. Look for people who said they tested it for themselves. Look for the failures as well as the successes.

Camille


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> Condescending? Since when is the truth condescension? There is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist. There is nothing wrong with having dreams. But dreams are not reality. When authors who are at the top of their game, and I wish you well one day getting there, tell you what you should do, and those who have nothing but time on forums as experience claim they're wrong and contradict them, you don't want truth. You want reassurance.
> I have none. Being a writer for a living is hard. Unless you have the talent it is impossible. Period. Doing it for fun is rewarding and wonderful. But then that only takes determination...not talent. Don't ask questions if you are afraid of the answer.


LOL - that's just it, there is no "answer". Just a bunch of theory. My theory is story and visibility are how you make this a career. Is it right? Who knows? Is it wrong? Maybe, maybe not.

Does someone's sales figures make their theories more right or more wrong than others? No, it just gets painted as that because people refuse to believe there's no secret sauce and that some among us must have the recipe. In my opinion, that's faulty thinking that leads new writers down unnecessary rabbit holes when really there's much better uses of their time and money.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> I have yet to see anyone who edits professionally do it for their own book.


Never foul your own nest.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I know who all those posters are (the ones who are selling a lot). They're legit. Of course, I could just be saying that, too.
> 
> I believe all of us used to post under our pen names here. The problem is that KBoards can be hostile to people who sell a lot, and most have left. The ones who still post sometimes tend not to do it under their names, with some exceptions. It just gets old after a while to be told it's all luck, etc., and that everybody's opinion about marketing is equally valid whether they sell $50 or $500,000 a year. (The last thing that happened to me.) Publishing isn't recreational soccer, and not everybody gets a trophy. Maybe some people are just on the wrong team or whatever, but if so, it's good to find that out. As somebody who's done well, I've been fortunate to get some good advice along the way. (And some advice that didn't work out, even though it worked for others. Such is life. This isn't an easy business.)
> 
> ...


FWIW, I put a lot more stock in your advice after I found out who you were. Anyone who's been there and done that is worth listening to if you're trying to be successful at something.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Hear, hear on the hobby thing! I'm a hobby writer. Sure, I'd love to make it a career, but I'm too incompetent at actually finishing books for that. C'est la vie. It's an extremely fulfilling hobby, and one that adds to the family's coffers. Win-win.


My apologies if this has already been mentioned (and I picked Becca's post to reply to because it most clearly matches the tone of the point I hope to make). My thoughts are off the track of the thread, but I just wanted to mention it to those who feel insulted at the term 'hobby' or 'hobbyist' or 'amateur:' Don't.

The word 'amateur' comes from the French (via Latin) and means 'one who loves [the thing].' In its truest definition, an 'amateur author' is simply one who writes because they love writing.

There is no shame in being an 'amateur' or a 'hobbyist,' just as there's no shame in making, or trying to make, a living at doing the thing you love.

I've encountered some of the most fascinating, engaging, interesting, intelligent, and all-around wonderful people I could ever imagine via their hobbies, their amateur efforts, the things they do because they just plain _love doing them_. Some of them made money from their hobbies; some didn't. But none of them were any better or worse at what they did because they did or didn't get paid (or turn a profit). Do what you love, and do it as well as you can.


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## Jewel Allen (Oct 14, 2017)

JulianneQJohnson said:


> I agree that many new authors can publish on a shoestring and get away with it. You absolutely can do, or learn to do, most of it on your own. At this point, I have an editor. That's it. I made my Wordpress blog my webpage and started a Facebook Author Page. I write on word, learned to format myself, upload myself, and make my own covers. My covers are all right and I'm getting better as I go along. I have quite a bit of art background. Learning how to manipulate images on the computer is a different thing entirely, but I'm getting there. An author made cover does not have to look like a homemade cover. When I can afford it, I'll get a cover designer. Until then, other than the editor, my production team is a one-person show.


Good for you! I love your attitude. I do not discount the talent and skill of professional cover designers and formatters. I know a cover can make or break a book. But those skills are good to learn on our own as authors. We know our stories inside out, and can sometimes nail the message we want to send out. At first, I took forever to design covers and format, but once I got the hang of it, I had such a blast and got quicker at it, too. (Though yes, you do have to weigh if it's worth doing these if it takes you too much from your writing.) Saving money was doubly fun. My favorite thing to do is coming up with covers for series. Ah, if only the books would write themselves.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

I don't understand how some people on here are still surprised by the comments by some authors who think their way is the only way to make it.

People can take your advice to scrimp, scrap, save and spend money on an editor, a proofreader, a formatter, a cover artist and write in this genre, use this promo site etc.... but that does not mean guaranteed sales. There are just as many people telling their '_struggle stories'_ in self-publishing as there are authors telling their '_success stories_'.

It's sad to see someone talking about spending their savings or going deep into debt to publish their first book.

The thread is really about not having to beg, borrow, steal, save for years, work a 2nd or 3rd job, get a credit card or put your dream aside for years to get your book out there.

I see authors doing whatever they can do e.g. using beta readers, buying a cover on fiverr, using D2D for formatting. One author said she paid a little money upfront for editing and then gave the editor a IOU contract.

There are many ways to do this and there are lots of free resources. Not everyone wants to make 100k a year or a month, some just want to make a little extra cash and entertain a few people.

No one knows how well a book is going to sell or how many 5 star reviews it is going to get until it's out there.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I started out doing everything myself because it was all I could afford.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: if I'd had to wait till I could afford to hire help and get professional covers, I'd have had to wait forever.  For me, those early days were great because I learned so much, and I upped my game with practice.  Meaning, I wasn't going to be a bestseller out of the gate no matter what I paid for editing or covers at that point.  I was niche, I was learning, I was enjoying it a heck of a lot.  And each sale meant so much to me!  It really did!

As I earned more, I was able to invest in the business side--better covers, hiring proofreaders, dipping my toes in the advertising waters.  Some of that money has gone to waste, but most of it had a great return for me because I'd learned where money could be spent to improve.  And I wasn't going into debt to spend it.  There are a lot of cheap options to improve your product...when you're ready to re-invest.

Maybe some people can't start out like that, I don't know, but we're all on a learning curve of some sort.  I agree that writing itself is the biggest part.  The next is finding an audience that likes what you like.  Whether it's niche or a huge audience in a crowded genre, that takes time.  In my view, it takes a certain amount of consistency and multiple releases.  (But others have had opposite experiences.)

There are things a writer learns that you can't actually pay for.  Just have to learn them through practice.  I don't think my sales would have improved much in the beginning if I'd splashed out for all the best of everything.  Feeling that I had to would simply have kept me from ever publishing.  As it became viable for me, I treated this like a business instead of a hobby.  I do that whenever I can.  But I'm still pretty miserly in general about what I spend on.

Do I believe it's a value?  Do I understand what I'm actually buying?  Does it improve something in a measurable way?  For instance, I don't understand Facebook ads, and I don't trust Facebook.  They're notably difficult towards authors in my genre.  For me, it would be flushing money down the ol' rat hole to spend a lot of time and cash on Facebook ads.  Other authors have made a million bucks because of Facebook ads.  

We all have strengths and weaknesses.  I gotta say, nothing reveals weaknesses quite like hitting Publish and getting your first one-star.    But you keep going and learn, or else just stop.  And many people do.  You don't hear from them much; why would you?  

If you can afford to invest, that's great, but spend wisely and don't end up as a cautionary tale.  Chasing the latest thing or believing the slickest marketer doesn't always work.  People pay for all sorts of things they might regret later.  I really think publishing shouldn't dig you deeper into money troubles.

As well, everyone's case is different, genres vary, and the publishing climate changes all the time.  I don't think it's easy to start out now no matter how much you invest up front.  I do think being able to do something in a sustainable way is more important for upping your overall success than having to start out the gate in a make it or break it way.  Because how many people are really going to make it right out of the gate?  Realistically.  As a percentage of all beginners.  Whereas if you can afford to keep doing it, enjoy doing it, and just keep learning--it won't matter as much if you don't make huge money on your first release.  

Go big or go home doesn't work for every person or every situation.  That's how it used to be.  You had to go to expensive conferences, invest in expensive clothing so you looked high class enough to suit snobbish editors, you had to be charming and good at elevator pitches.  You had years in slush piles or a couple of minutes to sell your book to the sharks in person.  And then...when you did everything right and hit every single lucky break, if your book didn't hit it out of the gate (no matter extenuating circumstance), you'd be lucky to ever get a second chance.  Got stuck with a crappy cover and poor advertisement?  Regrettable placement and a terrible blurb that didn't exactly sell the book to the intended audience?  Too bad.  It's sell, baby, sell, or you're out of here.

I didn't use an editor on one of my more beloved books.  Others I have used an editor on and professional art and they still haven't been great hits.  But I keep going because I can.  One release isn't going to make or break me.  It gets tight sometimes, but it's sustainable.

A lot of us here on KBoards are doing well by our standards--which won't be everyone's--but frankly, I'm so grateful.  My readers help me do what I love.  This is a "job."  Writing!  It's a job!  But it didn't start out that way.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

BellaJames said:


> It's sad to see someone talking about spending their savings or going deep into debt to publish their first book.


Why is it sad if they were happy with the pay-off they got out of it? Some people spend their savings on a new car they don't even need, or on a five star vacation...

Startup businesses often have to rely on a bank loan to get started. There's no guarantee their homemade chewing gum or new dog food brand is going to sell, either. However, unlike authors those businesses need a business plan before they get a single dime from a bank.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> Why is it sad if they were happy with the pay-off they got out of it? Some people spend their savings on a new car they don't even need, or on a five star vacation...


I would think it would be sad if they sank money they couldn't afford (spending savings earmarked for something else and/or going into debt) to lose on a creative project when they weren't prepared to lose that money. Spending that same money (and going into debt) for luxury items is equally sad but not the same. They were expecting a payday return on the first, showing sketchy financial judgment on the second but had no expectation of return on investment.



C. Rysalis said:


> Startup businesses often have to rely on a bank loan to get started. There's no guarantee their homemade chewing gum or new dog food brand is going to sell, either. However, unlike authors those businesses need a business plan before they get a single dime from a bank.


For me, I think this is key. To make sound business decisions before getting eyeballs deep in debut on a venture, which would include a frank moment of decision on what will get you to the next goalpost in your plan _and whether you can afford to lose the money if it doesn't payout_.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't see anyone here saying you should spend thousands on your first launch. That seems a misrepresentation of the other argument. I see people saying there is a minimum needed for a release that will give that book a professional enough appearance to give that book a decent chance at success (all caveats of writing quality included). That sum of money, in my opinion, is 500-1,000.

That might be nothing to you, or that might be a painful amount. The harder it is to raise that sum, the more honest you should be with yourself about the quality of your writing. Honest to the point of being brutal. But if you are absolutely sure that you have the writing chops, and you have some validation from people who know what they're talking about, I would recommend finding a way to raise the money to get editing and cover work done.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

SerenityEditing said:


> My apologies if this has already been mentioned (and I picked Becca's post to reply to because it most clearly matches the tone of the point I hope to make). My thoughts are off the track of the thread, but I just wanted to mention it to those who feel insulted at the term 'hobby' or 'hobbyist' or 'amateur:' Don't.


I totally agree with that. I have a passion for doing local theater, and when I'm in a play, I throw myself 100% into it. I love it.

If someone saw a show I was in and wanted to cast me in a movie, I would absolutely take that opportunity. But I am not remotely doing what would be needed to make it likely to happen. I don't take acting classes, I don't audition for professional parts, I don't invest in a portfolio, etc. It would take some weird fluke of luck to make it happen. That's before you even evaluate whether I am the type of person who would get this sort of offer under the best of circumstances. (Hint: I am not.)

So when someone says, "Hmm, the cover looks like it was thrown up with MS Paint, and the book needs professional editing," they're not saying you don't care or that you don't have talent or that you didn't write to the best of your ability. They're saying you treat it more like a hobby than a serious pursuit as a business concern.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

MonkeyScribe said:


> I would recommend finding a way to raise the money to get editing and cover work done.


All the comments are starting to blur so I apologize if this has already been said. If a writer doesn't have a way to get the editing and cover, which appears in the context of this conversation to be two of the most important aspects of selling their books, there is the possibility of bartering for trade. Taking a look at their own unique strengths and offering a trade of some kind. Or putting their own strengths out there for sale to scrape up the money.

Shopping around for deals. If an author spent months on their book to get it written, wouldn't it behoove them to take the same time (and presumably, care) to look for good deals. I just saw an advertisement here on the boards for a proofread for $30. The discussion so far on it didn't have poor service stamped on it. Wouldn't camping in that thread to see what some clients come back to say after a few days be wise? What's a few days?

Premades, some are very good and for the price can be a real bargain. Once the book gets legs, think about upgrading.

There are more ways that using the rent and grocery money to get these things done.

Or perhaps, I'm just an optimist.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

DonovanJeremiah said:


> Shopping around for deals. If an author spent months on their book to get it written, wouldn't it behoove them to take the same time (and presumably, care) to look for good deals. I just saw an advertisement here on the boards for a proofread for $30. The discussion so far on it didn't have poor service stamped on it. Wouldn't camping in that thread to see what some clients come back to say after a few days be wise? What's a few days?
> 
> Premades, some are very good and for the price can be a real bargain. Once the book gets legs, think about upgrading.
> 
> There are more ways that using the rent and grocery money to get these things done.


Yes, I agree. The easiest way to cut expenses is to teach yourself formatting. That's something most people can do. Then a pre-made cover is going to look 100X better than something you whip up yourself. Teach yourself self-editing, master grammar, and give as clean a manuscript as you can to someone who is trying to build an editing portfolio and has some good early feedback.

I used to have $100 covers and now I pay 500-1,000, because I work in a genre where there's tons of competition with original art, and I've seen it make a big difference. But you don't _have to_. You just have to look professional.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

DonovanJeremiah said:


> For me, I think this is key. To make sound business decisions before getting eyeballs deep in debut on a venture, which would include a frank moment of decision on what will get you to the next goalpost in your plan _and whether you can afford to lose the money if it doesn't payout_.


If business plans were mandatory for authors, maybe more new authors would find success.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

C. Rysalis said:


> If business plans were mandatory for authors, maybe more new authors would find success.


TBH, I thought I was a freak for making an author's business plan since no one else seemed to be talking about them.


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## T E Scott Writer (Jul 27, 2016)

Everyone who thinks bootstrappers are hobbyists should go and listen to the michael anderle and t s paul episodes of the author biz. Just sayin.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

DonovanJeremiah said:


> TBH, I thought I was a freak for making an author's business plan since no one else seemed to be talking about them.


You ought to read some of BardsandSages posts.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

Perhaps I think of bootstrapping in a different light. 

I'm a bootstrapper. I use the tools at hand to get the job done. I know my strengths. Like MonkeyScribe mentioned above, I taught myself how to hand format to turn out quality books. If I can't afford to buy it, then I find a way to barter. Or I find another revenue stream to pay. I shop around for good deals. I seek arrangements with new service providers. I network to get into newsletters. I'm learning how to scoot around in the Facebook environment to make connections. I join forums where the quality and wealth of information is free. 

When I make money on my books, I turn it around and dump it back into my business to pay for better editing, better covers, and explore more avenues for promotion. Buy better tools to help me with what I can do. I just recently splurged for a Mac and for Vellum. I participated in NaNoWriMo a few years back to get Scrivener for half off.

This isn't an either/or proposition. It's a matter of how much elbow grease a writer's willing to put in to get the best bang for their investment. It's learning to maneuver within the confinements of your current situation. It's leveraging what you can do yourself vs. what you need help doing. It's shopping for the best deals.

Bootstrapping isn't just a thing you do, it's a mindset. And that, like all things, vary from person to person.

A book is an investment, whether amateur or hobbyist or professional or whatever designation people want to put on it. Do the best with what you have, constantly seek to upgrade and improve.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

C. Rysalis said:


> Why is it sad if they were happy with the pay-off they got out of it? Some people spend their savings on a new car they don't even need, or on a five star vacation...
> 
> Startup businesses often have to rely on a bank loan to get started. There's no guarantee their homemade chewing gum or new dog food brand is going to sell, either. However, unlike authors those businesses need a business plan before they get a single dime from a bank.


It is sad. Have you spoken to someone who has spent a ton of money trying to get a book launched because they were told that they had to get an editor who costs $1000+ or a book cover for $100+ or they will be seen as an amateur or hobbyist?

I have. I spoke to a woman who was crying her eyes out because she spent her little savings and now she's in trouble with her landlords. I've read the _struggle stories _on blogs and forums and youtube videos.

I've also spoken to people who invested in a business and made very little money. My friend's wife opened a salon and could only get a few relatives and friends through the door. She was lucky that she had products she could sell and make some money back.

When a book flops and you've spent savings, used a credit card or borrowed money you cannot get that back. So yes I find it sad and I think some people on here are insensitive and think there's only one way to do this.

Not everyone has a way to raise some funds in a short period of time and by short I mean under 1 year. There are ways to barter and I said in my previous comment that you can use Beta readers, use D2D for formatting and find a graphics student or a friend who can make you a professional looking cover.

You don't have to spend $500+. That investment does not guarantee that your book will sell. I've seen tons of authors saying they spent $0 to $100 to launch their first book and it did not kill their careers.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> Condescending? Since when is the truth condescension?


I think the rules of the board are unless people ask for craft advice we say nothing. I know it is sometimes hard when you open a Look Inside and the first paragraph is nearly incomprehensible, or someone is trying to sneak something that reads like bad poetry into space opera.



This_Way_Down said:


> Unless you have the talent it is impossible. Period.


I think more than lack of talent there is lack of polish. We all make certain mistakes repeatedly in our writing, and we need good editors, and willingness to fix them. Sometimes what might be a "mistake" to me are style choices to the author. Certain style choices may not resonate with as large an audience, and I think as long as we acknowledge them it's probably okay. (Yes, I love writing in third person present tense! Love, love, love it! I write faster and feel closer to the characters, and it also makes "flashbacks" feel more natural to me. I can get rid of all the hads.)

Ahem.

*There are a lot of people who don't want to know when a style choice is problematic, they just want reassurance. I don't give reassurance to them because I think false hope is ultimately unkind.* But I will not point problematic things out to them unless they ask. I figure if they don't ask, they're not ready to make a change anyway. Also, probably nicer to send that sort of info in a PM.



This_Way_Down said:


> When authors who are at the top of their game ... tell you what you should do,


But what might be right for someone who is at the top of their game may not be the right advice for someone at the bottom.

I'm really glad I didn't follow some of the advice of authors at the top of their game! For instance, being told repeatedly I should produce my own audiobooks. SO GLAD I DIDN'T DO THAT.

I am only in the $60-80K bracket and my family needs that income ... which is something that someone at the top might not have understood. Now with the WhisperSync issues I am so, so, so relieved that I didn't gamble what I had.

*All that said ...* You've got some really legit frustration This_Way_Down. *There is a lot of really bad advice on this forum* (not necessarily applying to the OP--I started on a shoestring!) Sometimes I want to reach through the screen and shake people, "Don't take that advice -- this person isn't earning a living but are talking like they are!"

Something I have wanted to say for a long time ... *Before taking advice here read back through people's posts and check their rank.* There are people like Patty who earn the bulk of their income on other vendors and overseas, there are some people who make most of their income at in person events, but they're still making a living. If you look back there are usually signs of where an author really is in their career.

Once you do that, ask yourself, is this person where I want to be? Can I act on this advice in my current life situation? (A cover overhaul by Damonza of seven books will probably not be useful to someone making $600 a year.) If yes to both, give their advice more credence.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

BellaJames said:


> It is sad. Have you spoken to someone who has spent a ton of money trying to get a book launched because they were told that they had to get an editor who costs $1000+ or a book cover for $100+ or they will be seen as an amateur or hobbyist?


I guess I just don't understand why anyone feels that 'uploading to Amazon' is the one and only path to being considered a serious writer. There are so many self-publishing alternatives that involve next to production cost. Tapas.io, Radish for romance writers, a plethora of web fiction platforms OTHER than Wattpad (with mature audiences), personal blogs... the list goes on.

'Selling books on Amazon' is a business decision. But there are so many ways to write, find readers, and make some money that don't involve Amazon... yet no one seems to want to acknowledge them. 

Because I mentioned Patreon earlier in the thread... https://www.patreon.com/drewhayesnovels


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

C. Gockel said:


> I think the rules of the board are unless people ask for craft advice we say nothing. I know it is sometimes hard when you open a Look Inside and the first paragraph is nearly incomprehensible, or someone is trying to sneak something that reads like bad poetry into space opera.
> 
> I think more than lack of talent there is lack of polish. We all make certain mistakes repeatedly in our writing, and we need good editors, and willingness to fix them. Sometimes what might be a "mistake" to me are style choices to the author. Certain style choices may not resonate with as large an audience, and I think as long as we acknowledge them it's probably okay. (Yes, I love writing in third person present tense! Love, love, love it! I write faster and feel closer to the characters, and it also makes "flashbacks" feel more natural to me. I can get rid of all the hads.)
> 
> ...


Advice from established bestsellers is good but taking that advice and making it work for you, is another thing.

There are authors who said they followed this authors advice, tried to write a similar book and had half or less than half of that authors success. Some failed despite following the general advice to pay for professional editing, a cover designer and formatting. Sometimes it is all about the story, some people are just good at telling a good story and that's why they sell and sell.

It is not bad advice to say pay for professional editing etc... but the OP was just saying there is another way of doing this.

Not everyone has access to extra money to pay for professional help. I know what it's like to want to start a business to improve your finances, go after a dream and have no money (and I mean salary in and salary straight out working shift work, no savings and nothing to sell around the house).


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> It is not bad advice to say pay for professional editing etc... but the OP was just saying there is another way of doing this.


My comment was more in general. I agree there are other ways to go about this. I Bring the Fire had homemade covers for a long time.

One thing I think is that if you do the whole bootstrapping thing and still have people saying, "Wow! This was a surprise and really good" (and those people aren't your relatives) you probably have a fairer shake at "making it." Some people's prose isn't very accessible.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2017)

C. Gockel said:


> I think the rules of the board are unless people ask for craft advice we say nothing. I know it is sometimes hard when you open a Look Inside and the first paragraph is nearly incomprehensible, or someone is trying to sneak something that reads like bad poetry into space opera.
> 
> I think more than lack of talent there is lack of polish. We all make certain mistakes repeatedly in our writing, and we need good editors, and willingness to fix them. Sometimes what might be a "mistake" to me are style choices to the author. Certain style choices may not resonate with as large an audience, and I think as long as we acknowledge them it's probably okay. (Yes, I love writing in third person present tense! Love, love, love it! I write faster and feel closer to the characters, and it also makes "flashbacks" feel more natural to me. I can get rid of all the hads.)
> 
> ...


I get it that some advice doesn't apply to beginners. But good habits and practices do. Hugh Howey, for example. I couldn't replicate his success regardless of how I tried. The man caught lightning in a bottle. But I can learn from him in a broad, general way. How does he market? How does he interact with fans? Things like that. I can also study the appeal of his work. What was it that drove readers to buy Wool? 
I *do not* advocate putting yourself in debt for a release. But there are ways to get a book ready on a budget. The thing is, it takes time. And what I see all too often is this rush to publish. _It's good enough. I can fix it later._ WTF? Indies have been struggling for respect for too long to ignore that sort of nonsense. It diminishes my profession and belittles my colleagues in the eyes of readers. It screams to the world that the critics of indie are right and have been all along.
Anyone with a bit of time on their hands, an idea, and enough patience can sit down and write a book. And KDP has enabled them to share their story with the world. Moreover, unlike an amateur musician who typically plays for enjoyment, they can charge people for it. That's all fine. Because in truth, those who refuse to polish their work and put out a product comparable with the Big Five releases, will only cost a few friends and family any money or time. Those who have what it takes will succeed. I've seen it time and time again. Because in the end, cream always rises to the top.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> The thing is, it takes time. And what I see all too often is this rush to publish. _It's good enough. I can fix it later._ WTF? Indies have been struggling for respect for too long to ignore that sort of nonsense. It diminishes my profession and belittles my colleagues in the eyes of readers. It screams to the world that the critics of indie are right and have been all along.


I'm glad to read someone saying this because I've been feeling like I'm spending way too much time on my first book. Some people have said go ahead and publish it and work on the next one, but there are still issues I'm ironing out. So I feel like if I publish something that's not the best I can do, then go on to the next one...what good is that since I've already established my reputation with the first one that wasn't as good it could be...you know?


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

BellaJames said:


> Advice from established bestsellers is good but taking that advice and making it work for you, is another thing.
> 
> There are authors who said they followed this authors advice, tried to write a similar book and had half or less than half of that authors success. Some failed despite following the general advice to pay for professional editing, a cover designer and formatting. Sometimes it is all about the story, some people are just good at telling a good story and that's why they sell and sell.
> 
> ...


One reason we can't always succeed using a successful authors advice is that the industry changed dramatically from the time they started until now, especially in terms of marketing. Old ideas don't work anymore.

Another point I was trying to make is that it takes time to learn how to do many things free, and some won't see the value in learning until later, when a dozen or so changes become clear, and they find themselves practically starting over. These include new ways to format, the good the bad and the ugly back matter, the Table of Contents, and I'm not even talking about better cover art and more editing. The ways to improve presentations is endless.

The more we learn how to do it ourselves early, the better we are prepared to make adjustments as the industry changes. For example, authors paid thousands to turn their books into audio and now we can do it ourselves for free. Yes, it takes skill and a huge learning curve, but I have over 40 books. No way am I going to pay thousands per book. I'm waiting for the day when costs come way down due to competition. Am I losing valuable sales? Probably, but it's better than investing in audio and not breaking even.

Marti Talbott


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2017)

Martitalbott said:


> One reason we can't always succeed using a successful authors advice is that the industry changed dramatically from the time they started until now, especially in terms of marketing. Old ideas don't work anymore.
> 
> Another point I was trying to make is that it takes time to learn how to do many things free, and some won't see the value in learning until later, when a dozen or so changes become clear, and they find themselves practically starting over. These include new ways to format, the good the bad and the ugly back matter, the Table of Contents, and I'm not even talking about better cover art and more editing. The ways to improve presentations is endless.
> 
> ...


The successful indies who have been around since the early days are still around because we changed with the times. Why do you think these new programs were invented? Why do you think new marketing tools became available? Why do you think cover artists and editors became more accessible? To service the up and comers with no money to spend? Are you serious? Everything you see in the indie world today is a direct result of the original indie explosion and those of us who were there at the time. We had needs, and the business world reacted. And as the publishing world changed, we continued to adapt. 
The part of the equation that includes the fledgling writer on a small budget is minuscule.


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## anikad (Sep 19, 2017)

> It is sad. Have you spoken to someone who has spent a ton of money trying to get a book launched because they were told that they had to get an editor who costs $1000+ or a book cover for $100+ or they will be seen as an amateur or hobbyist?
> 
> I have. I spoke to a woman who was crying her eyes out because she spent her little savings and now she's in trouble with her landlords. I've read the struggle stories on blogs and forums and youtube videos.


It's sad that people are getting into difficulties but I don't understand why people rush into self publishing without having a comprehensive business plan, risk assessment and mitigation strategy. Self publishing on amazon is not the only way to publish, if you really don't have money, or skills or are unable to barter then why not look at one of the publishing houses? If you're willing to give a way a book for free to grow your audience, why not try and publish with one of the NY houses as a loss leader? Then use the money that you earn to fund future self publishing. It's an option. Another thing I've seen people doing is setting up patreon, kofi, gofundme and kickstarters to fund self publishing.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

anikad said:


> It's sad that people are getting into difficulties but I don't understand why people rush into self publishing without having a comprehensive business plan, risk assessment and mitigation strategy.




Some of us start as a hobby or as self-expression, and then end up growing into a business. I think you'll find it's not rare that many authors will say they wrote when they earned nothing, and they'd keep writing if they never wrote another penny. Sometimes the focus changes, as one becomes more adept at writing what an audience actually wants to read, but many authors get into it for the writing, not thinking of business much at first. I suppose that could have changed, but I really do think that there's a preponderance of _writers_ rather than business people starting out. Not that it would be bad to have a plan, but that's not something everyone starts out doing. Also, someone publishing their first book might not know if they want to keep doing this or not, much less how to even begin the business sides. It can be a steep learning curve for everyone, and not every author has found KBoards.



> Self publishing on amazon is not the only way to publish, if you really don't have money, or skills or are unable to barter then why not look at one of the publishing houses? If you're willing to give a way a book for free to grow your audience, why not try and publish with one of the NY houses as a loss leader? Then use the money that you earn to fund future self publishing. It's an option. Another thing I've seen people doing is setting up patreon, kofi, gofundme and kickstarters to fund self publishing.


I think Patreon et all goes over much better when authors (and other artists) actually have something to offer their fans. Asking people to cover your costs before you offer them anything is a good way to earn ire on the internet.

If you think NY publishing is a good replacement for indie in terms of time, earnings, or anything else...well I'm really not sure what to tell you at this point. Stick around for a while and read more about the experiences of various authors, not just on KBoards, but all over the place. Big 6 publishing as a way to earn money...or any sort of reasonable time investment...is a pretty long shot, at best.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MonkeyScribe said:


> I don't see anyone here saying you should spend thousands on your first launch. That seems a misrepresentation of the other argument. I see people saying there is a minimum needed for a release that will give that book a professional enough appearance to give that book a decent chance at success (all caveats of writing quality included). That sum of money, in my opinion, is 500-1,000.


That range might work if you have a very short book or can get away with just professional proofreading, but a lot of writers need significant editorial work. I just went to the site of one of KB's editor members -- someone I know is good -- and priced out editing my second book. It'd be in the ballpark of $2,500. That seems pretty reasonable for a 120K book. Editors do need to make a living wage.

I'm not sure what the solution is for people who have a good story to tell but don't have anywhere near the sentence-level chops to go without editing. They're facing some pretty daunting costs. There's no editing equivalent of a decent pre-made cover.

Edited. Because of course I made a mistake in a post about editing.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

I just want to pop in and say that I'm 10000% in favor of authors starting out doing everything or as much as they can on their own. What if you ARE great at covers, or self-editing, or making your own website, etc.? You'll never know without doing it. Once you figure out what you can/want to do and what you can't/don't, then decide where to spend money. But there's no point in going into the hole over that first book experiment.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> I just want to pop in and say that I'm 10000% in favor of authors starting out doing everything or as much as they can on their own. What if you ARE great at covers, or self-editing, or making your own website, etc.? You'll never know without doing it. Once you figure out what you can/want to do and what you can't/don't, then decide where to spend money. But there's no point in going into the hole over that first book experiment.


A lot of people don't realize they're not good at it and then wonder why their book doesn't sell though. I know I can do a cover because I used to be a graphic designer and I went to school for it, but that's not everyone. Even saying that, there are designers who could do much better if I had the money to pay them...but I can at least do something professional that advertises the genre. Using a free image and MS Paint isn't going to get sellable results for most genres. I know as a reader, I won't even look at books with shoddy covers. I'm not alone in that. When it comes to editing, I thought my first draft was perfect until my editor tore it apart and my first round of beta readers pointed out everything that didn't make sense. I'm glad I found out that way instead of by publishing and getting no results other than bad reviews.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

paranormal_kitty said:


> A lot of people don't realize they're not good at it and then wonder why their book doesn't sell though. I know I can do a cover because I used to be a graphic designer and I went to school for it, but that's not everyone. Even saying that, there are designers who could do much better if I had the money to pay them...but I can at least do something professional that advertises the genre. Using a free image and MS Paint isn't going to get sellable results for most genres. I know as a reader, I won't even look at books with shoddy covers. I'm not alone in that. When it comes to editing, I thought my first draft was perfect until my editor tore it apart and my first round of beta readers pointed out everything that didn't make sense. I'm glad I found out that way instead of by publishing and getting no results other than bad reviews.


Who cares if it sells or not? The point remains that you'll never know where your skills or natural interests are if you don't try all of it. Go for it. Nothing's hurt by doing it, and you get experience in the whole shebang.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Make a business plan, learn to edit, DIY covers, learn to format an e-book, etc.

This is all good advice for those willing to take it. But search some of the threads on formatting, for example, and as soon as someone mentions html and css, you're buried under a rush of excuses why they can't or don't want to learn such an esoteric subject, the most frequent being, "I'd rather spend my time writing."

Newer tools are making it easier. Vellum, for example. But you need to know what an attractive product looks like to begin with. Having an air hammer and laser level doesn't make you a carpenter.

Someone mentioned _Wool_. What made it take off? Well, times are different and maybe it wouldn't today, but beyond all the other things Hugh did right, he wrote a dynamite book. I was hooked after the first sentence. (It didn't hurt when Stephen King mentioned that he liked the book.)

If you have money to spend, use it to gain visibility. Because without that, it doesn't matter how good the book is. I don't know the best ways to do that nowadays. Anything that works is immediately jumped on by everyone, so it stops working.

One of my best marketing investments was in a service several years ago that later turned into a controversy. They promised 10,000 downloads of any freebie. They didn't say how, but they delivered and amazon verified that those downloads were to legitimate accounts. The result was a boost in rank and piles of reviews, which drew in more readers, which gave the series exposure. The books got visibility and they do okay. Bookbub has helped too, but I don't know how I managed to get into it twice. The identical approach was rejected the other times I submitted.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> The successful indies who have been around since the early days are still around because we changed with the times. Why do you think these new programs were invented? Why do you think new marketing tools became available? Why do you think cover artists and editors became more accessible? To service the up and comers with no money to spend? Are you serious? Everything you see in the indie world today is a direct result of the original indie explosion and those of us who were there at the time. We had needs, and the business world reacted. And as the publishing world changed, we continued to adapt.
> The part of the equation that includes the fledgling writer on a small budget is minuscule.


Not sure who you think you're talking to, so I'll just let this pass.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Just wanted to say I love the term "whole shebang" and so glad someone else still uses it! The other saying we use is "What a maroon!" which many will recognize and we use in front of the nieces and nephews.


 I've recently learned 'bully for you!' and shall find a time to use it soon, hopefully!


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> Who cares if it sells or not? The point remains that you'll never know where your skills or natural interests are if you don't try all of it. Go for it. Nothing's hurt by doing it, and you get experience in the whole shebang.


Who cares if it sells or not?? Not everyone is doing it for the s**ts and giggles. Some of us need money and have few, if any, other options. If I didn't care if it sold or not, I wouldn't bother with editors and beta readers and re-writing so many times to make it accessible to the widest audience.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

paranormal_kitty said:


> Who cares if it sells or not?? Not everyone is doing it for the s**ts and giggles. Some of us need money and have few, if any, other options. If I didn't care if it sold or not, I wouldn't bother with editors and beta readers and re-writing so many times to make it accessible to the widest audience.


You hit the nail on the head right there. So many people are desperate and there's no need to be, especially for first-time authors with no stakes in the success of the very first book they're producing. However, they're told from the very beginning that they need to get right out there and be the best before they even know what self-pubishing a book is like. It's needlessly stressful. We should be encouraging first-time authors to give themselves the freedom to explore how the business even works without the pressure of doing the best right now, especially since even that is no guarantee of any kind of success.

Most people's first, second, or third attempts aren't going to sell, and that's a fact. First-time authors should be really taking advantage of that nice calm space to gain some more skills, learn, explore their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion. Pressuring them to spend money on anything first-off is, frankly, stupid. Encourage people to grow at their own pace, and we'd have a lot less desperate, crazy stress in the self-publishing world.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I write because I love writing. I publish because I make money. If this didn't pay me, I wouldn't publish. It's stressful and a lot of work. Without a return, I could just write whatever I want for myself and not worry about readers ever again. So some of us go into publishing looking to make money (after all, if you don't care about making money, why charge money for your books? You'll get more readers giving things away and have less stress probably). 

I bootstrapped in the beginning partially because back in 2010 there just weren't a lot of resources and what there was were very expensive. Plus my mentors at the time were all about doing everything yourself and saving every buck you could. They got pissy with me when I paid for cover art in 2011, slamming the beautiful covers I'd bought so hard that I ended up never writing those books. I learned HTML with Kindle-specific coding to make my first ebooks. I collaborated with a friend who had photoshop to learn how to make covers. And... I made almost no money. Oh, I got lucky a couple times with timing of things (I was one of the first people to try out Select and had some luck in it to the tune of a few hundred until my mentors told me I was being stupid and thinking too short term by being exclusive so I pulled the books and put them wide where all sales dried right up but at least I was now thinking long-term, right?), but for the most part, I made peanuts.  It was only by looking hard at what I was doing and where the differences were between me and the authors I wished I could sell like that I saw things had to change. So I changed them. 

There are totally things you can learn for yourself like formatting etc. But what I and a bunch of others are saying is that you will be maximizing your chances at selling well if you take the time and money to make sure you are presenting the best product you can.

Some people will sell well with the first book or two they write. Most people won't. If you aren't sure that your book is really good, maybe think about writing a new book with what you've learned. I think way too many people rush to publish because they are so happy to have finished something. But if your goal is making a living, maybe think about not rushing to publish. Think about what your craft might need, where you could improve, get beta feedback from people who READ your genre. If they are loving the book, it might be worth spending money to proofread and get an amazing cover and see how it does. If you are getting a lot of silence or empty flattery or uncomfortable comments, your work might need more work. So many times when people complain of low sales I go read the look-insides and it's obvious no cover change will save a book that needs either a total redraft or a really good developmental edit (which are not cheap).  It's painful to think your craft might not be up to snuff, that you aren't communicating the story you want to yet, but every single one of us can benefit by improving craft. Great writers who sell millions still improve and try new things. If you aren't sure if your work is ready, get feedback. Do some advance review copies via LibraryThing or something or put a few chapters up on Critters or Wattpad or wherever and get feedback from people who are familiar with what you are writing.

Feedback is free, generally... so why not start your bootstrapping there while you save up for the things that will make your story shine?


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> You hit the nail on the head right there. So many people are desperate and there's no need to be, especially for first-time authors with no stakes in the success of the very first book they're producing. However, they're told from the very beginning that they need to get right out there and be the best before they even know what self-pubishing a book is like. It's needlessly stressful. We should be encouraging first-time authors to give themselves the freedom to explore how the business even works without the pressure of doing the best right now, especially since even that is no guarantee of any kind of success.


There's no need to be, huh? You don't know my situation or anyone else's. Not everyone has the luxury of doing something just for fun. Some of us -- like myself -- are trying to build a career here. I want my first book to be the best it can be because that's the foundation I'm building everything else on. Apply your logic to any other type of business venture or career and it makes no sense, you see? Trying to get started in anything is stressful. A lot of my clients at my old job were doing start-ups and they were the most stressed people you will ever meet. If you're trying to succeed at anything, it isn't going to be a walk on the beach.



Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> Most people's first, second, or third attempts aren't going to sell, and that's a fact. First-time authors should be really taking advantage of that nice calm space to gain some more skills, learn, explore their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion. Pressuring them to spend money on anything first-off is, frankly, stupid. Encourage people to grow at their own pace, and we'd have a lot less desperate, crazy stress in the self-publishing world.


Yes, and right here in this thread, very successful authors have given reasons that those books don't sell. I do agree you need to take the time to develop your skills...but you should do that _before_ publishing, not just throw more crap into the heap as practice. When you get to the publishing point, you should be at least a little serious about it and feel like you have something that's close to your best effort...whether you're approaching it as a hobby on a shoestring, or trying to build a business that you can live on. This is how indie publishing gets a bad reputation.

I think most of the successful authors who have given advice here are probably operating on the assumption that when someone is to the publishing point, they have already "explored their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion." It not rocket science to understand that if you've written crap, slapping an expensive cover on it won't help. No one is saying that.

Plus, you apparently don't even follow this zen-like advice you are giving out:

?: How much do you pay for covers?


Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> $350 - $1k. Lower end was the best result.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Annie B said:


> I think way too many people rush to publish because they are so happy to have finished something. But if your goal is making a living, maybe think about not rushing to publish.


Yes...this is the mistake that I am forever grateful to KBoards for preventing me from making. I've been through two beta reader rounds and so many re-writes with this thing. Finally I'm where I think I have something really good as I'm getting close to being able to launch it. My first draft was awful, even though I thought it was genius. I was trying too much to be like another author, not realizing he is in literary trad pub and it's an entirely different game from genre fiction. I've had to really reign things in to make it understandable and enjoyable rather than something to slog through. I feel like I learned a ton, which will make it so much easier going forward. The learning process was as valuable as anything.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Someone suggested using the rank of authors who offered advice to qualify the veracity of that advice. I suppose that's a valid current metric, but some of us were successful authors well before amazon came to be. Rank isn't the final measure. But our advice might be as obsolete as our books.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> You hit the nail on the head right there. So many people are desperate and there's no need to be, especially for first-time authors with no stakes in the success of the very first book they're producing. However, they're told from the very beginning that they need to get right out there and be the best before they even know what self-pubishing a book is like. It's needlessly stressful. We should be encouraging first-time authors to give themselves the freedom to explore how the business even works without the pressure of doing the best right now, especially since even that is no guarantee of any kind of success.
> 
> Most people's first, second, or third attempts aren't going to sell, and that's a fact. First-time authors should be really taking advantage of that nice calm space to gain some more skills, learn, explore their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion. Pressuring them to spend money on anything first-off is, frankly, stupid. Encourage people to grow at their own pace, and we'd have a lot less desperate, crazy stress in the self-publishing world.


Any author should have plenty of stakes in the work they produce, even if it is the very first book they publish. And I think encouraging someone to have _lower_ standards is frankly ridiculous. If a book isn't ready to be out in the world, it shouldn't be published. If it isn't ready to be treated like a saleable product, it shouldn't be published. And if it is ready to be a saleable product then there's no reason an author shouldn't be encouraged to invest in that product, and by extension, their career.

On the other hand, if a book isn't ready to be published, either because it needs editing or beta reading, or because the author just isn't ready yet, encouraging the author to throw a cheap cover on and publish anyway isn't really doing them any favors. Sure, they've saved money on the cover, but they've published a book that wasn't ready, which doesn't seem like the best way to start their publishing career with their best foot forward.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

paranormal_kitty said:


> There's no need to be, huh? You don't know my situation or anyone else's. Not everyone has the luxury of doing something just for fun. Some of us -- like myself -- are trying to build a career here. *I want my first book to be the best it can be because that's the foundation I'm building everything else on. Apply your logic to any other type of business venture or career and it makes no sense, you see?* Trying to get started in anything is stressful. A lot of my clients at my old job were doing start-ups and they were the most stressed people you will ever meet. If you're trying to succeed at anything, it isn't going to be a walk on the beach.
> 
> Yes, and right here in this thread, very successful authors have given reasons that those books don't sell. *I do agree you need to take the time to develop your skills...but you should do that before publishing, not just throw more crap into the heap as practice. When you get to the publishing point, you should be at least a little serious about it and feel like you have something that's close to your best effort...whether you're approaching it as a hobby on a shoestring, or trying to build a business that you can live on. This is how indie publishing gets a bad reputation.*
> 
> I think most of the successful authors who have given advice here are probably operating on the assumption that when someone is to the publishing point, they have already "explored their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion." It not rocket science to understand that if you've written crap, slapping an expensive cover on it won't help. No one is saying that.


This. ^^^ All of this. But especially the parts in bold.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Feedback is free, generally... so why not start your bootstrapping there while you save up for the things that will make your story shine?


So much this. I think this is the thing most new writers are most afraid of doing ... or they do it, and don't hear back, and they don't put two and two together and realize they may have some major issues.

I don't believe you have to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but you have some kernel of a story that a certain number of people just can't let go.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

paranormal_kitty said:


> I think most of the successful authors who have given advice here are probably operating on the assumption that when someone is to the publishing point, they have already "explored their own creativity and how exactly they can or should present it in a saleable fashion." It not rocket science to understand that if you've written crap, slapping an expensive cover on it won't help. No one is saying that.
> 
> Plus, you apparently don't even follow this zen-like advice you are giving out:
> 
> ?: How much do you pay for covers?


I didn't say anything about staying at the point where you're doing everything yourself for the entirety of your publishing career. The post you referenced is after six years of publishing, where it's already been learned what should be done personally and what should be hired out for. I'm talking about first-time publishers. That's it. Then use that baseline to determine where to spend your money from there, and otherwise the experience you learn about the whole process can be invaluable in understanding the value of what you're paying for.



> There's no need to be, huh? You don't know my situation or anyone else's. Not everyone has the luxury of doing something just for fun. Some of us -- like myself -- are trying to build a career here. I want my first book to be the best it can be because that's the foundation I'm building everything else on. Apply your logic to any other type of business venture or career and it makes no sense, you see? Trying to get started in anything is stressful. A lot of my clients at my old job were doing start-ups and they were the most stressed people you will ever meet. If you're trying to succeed at anything, it isn't going to be a walk on the beach.


This extreme amount of stress is something I'm very personally close to, especially around this topic of owning your own business. This is the exact reason why I think people should stop stressing themselves out so much and take time to feel everything out, know what value to put where, etc. Yes, I'm trying to fight this intense small-business stress. That's the only reason why I posted here: because I live it every day, and frankly, I don't think it's a necessary part of being a successful business person.



> Yes, and right here in this thread, very successful authors have given reasons that those books don't sell. I do agree you need to take the time to develop your skills...but you should do that _before_ publishing, not just throw more crap into the heap as practice. When you get to the publishing point, you should be at least a little serious about it and feel like you have something that's close to your best effort...whether you're approaching it as a hobby on a shoestring, or trying to build a business that you can live on. This is how indie publishing gets a bad reputation.


I agree that people should be serious about publishing. I never didn't. I said I think it's an extremely beneficial learning tool for first-time publishers to do everything on their own and create a baseline for themselves.

That doesn't deny learning beforehand. I think first-time authors should learn as best they can, every single part of publishing. Then when you do decide to hire out you know 1. what to hire out for, and 2. you have better persepctive about what you want and why spending money on anything is valuable to you.

I'm not talking about permanently doing everything on your own (unless you're good at every part, then go you!), and I'm not talking about putting out a bunch of crap. I'm talking about giving onesself the space to fail, and learn from that failure so they can understand their own personal publishing career and where it should go.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> I just looked at Marti's Amazon catalog. Looks like she's doing okay to me. What's the rumpus? But I agree with you that we old-timers might have some practical advice to contribute.


I don't believe I said we don't have practical advice to contribute, but that the industry has changed so much, some advice is outdated. I was thinking about old articles and how, if we don't watch the dates, some think it is still good advice. Like $2.99 was supposed to be the sweet spot, and then the guy who said it raised his prices to $3.99. But then, I'm mostly non-combative. I would rather switch than fight.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I've removed some posts for cause and some other posts that responded to the now deleted posts.  ThisWayDown will not be posting in this thread any longer.

Thanks to others for keeping it civil.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

anikad said:


> It's sad that people are getting into difficulties but I don't understand why people rush into self publishing without having a comprehensive business plan, risk assessment and mitigation strategy. Self publishing on amazon is not the only way to publish, if you really don't have money, or skills or are unable to barter then why not look at one of the publishing houses? If you're willing to give a way a book for free to grow your audience, why not try and publish with one of the NY houses as a loss leader? Then use the money that you earn to fund future self publishing. It's an option. Another thing I've seen people doing is setting up patreon, kofi, gofundme and kickstarters to fund self publishing.


Why not use a NY publishing house instead? Perhaps because I don't want some brain dead editor, who has seen so much rubbish he can no longer tell the difference, reading a paragraph and throwing it out. If it gets past him, I don't want my story changed so dramatically that it is no longer my story, I don't want to be restricted to a few books a year, I don't want 10% or less when I could be getting 70% and I don't want to wait six months, unable to send elsewhere, while they make up their minds. And after all that, I still have to do my own marketing.

No, it is not an option.


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## anikad (Sep 19, 2017)

> I don't want to be restricted to a few books a year, I don't want 10% or less when I could be getting 70% and I don't want to wait six months,


You seem to be misunderstanding my point. Who is talking about permanently publishing with NY? I'm talking about publishing with NY for 1 or 2 books as a loss leader to grow your audience and earn enough money to self publish. If you are giving your books away anyway, doesn't it make more financial sense to get paid something rather than nothing?

Yes you _could _be getting 70% from Amazon but you _could_ also be selling nothing. 10% of something is better than 70% of nothing. My main point is publishing is a business, you need to look at all the options realistically and not allow your personal biases to cloud your judgement. You need a business plan, you need the risk assessment. A lot of people seem not to treat publishing as a business which is a shame.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

anikad said:


> I'm talking about publishing with NY for 1 or 2 books as a loss leader to grow your audience and earn enough money to self publish. If you are giving your books away anyway, doesn't it make more financial sense to get paid something rather than nothing?


Publishing a few books as a loss leader with a NY house could certainly be a good strategy... but it's not as simple as just _choosing_ to publish with them. NYC publishing houses are notoriously difficult to crack into if you're an unknown. If you're an indie author and plan on staying that way, it makes more sense to devote your time and effort to flourishing as an indie, rather than pursuing trad deals as a loss leader. The whole process (from querying agents to actually have books on the shelf) could take 2 to 3 years. All that time for a strategy that might not even pay off? Personally, I'd rather keep the rights myself.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

anikad said:


> You seem to be misunderstanding my point. Who is talking about permanently publishing with NY? I'm talking about publishing with NY for 1 or 2 books as a loss leader to grow your audience and earn enough money to self publish. If you are giving your books away anyway, doesn't it make more financial sense to get paid something rather than nothing?
> 
> Yes you _could _be getting 70% from Amazon but you _could_ also be selling nothing. 10% of something is better than 70% of nothing. My main point is publishing is a business, you need to look at all the options realistically and not allow your personal biases to cloud your judgement. You need a business plan, you need the risk assessment. A lot of people seem not to treat publishing as a business which is a shame.


And my point is that one cannot simply CHOOSE to publish with a trad publisher. One has to submit a sample, a query letter, then if you are fortunate enough, one must wait at least six months for them to decide they don't want it. I've known authors wait 11 years or more to find a publisher; even big names like Stephen King and J.K. Rowling were rejected many times.

Why do you think all you have to do is decide to publish with a big publishing house? Have you ever tried?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Martitalbott said:


> I don't believe I said we don't have practical advice to contribute


The continuity of this sub-thread has been jostled by moderation. I agree with you.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

To bring this back on topic -- doing it all yourself -- there is one other issue to consider:

It takes a freaking lot of time to do it all yourself.  That's why it is often good to do it while you're learning. When you are learning, nothing is wasted, plus your time isn't as valuable as it will be when you've established yourself.  Then you have to consider your points of efficiency -- what can you do best yourself, what do you love to do yourself and what simply takes too much time, no matter how well you do it.

If you love to do it all yourself, as I do, that will cut your productivity in terms of the number of books you can write in half.  Just right off the bat.  If anything else is pressing on your time too, you're done.

This used to be an argument against self-publishing. The traditionally published crowded would cry "I don't have time for all those publishing tasks. I want to concentrate on writing." However, that argument doesn't float because traditional publishing means you have to spend a lot of time on marketing.  (And with traditional publishing do don't have the option of doing anything yourself but write.)

And that last point is something to think about.  Sometimes doing certain other things yourself is an actual well of inspiration and joy. Sometimes, though it steals some time away from your writing, it also infuses your writing time with extra energy.  While it doesn't get enough press, there is nothing wrong with taking your writing side as a no-nonsense profession, and treating publishing as the fun hobby.

Camille


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> To bring this back on topic -- doing it all yourself -- there is one other issue to consider:
> 
> It takes a freaking lot of time to do it all yourself. That's why it is often good to do it while you're learning. When you are learning, nothing is wasted, plus your time isn't as valuable as it will be when you've established yourself. Then you have to consider your points of efficiency -- what can you do best yourself, what do you love to do yourself and what simply takes too much time, no matter how well you do it.
> 
> ...


Agree. Learning how to format my own books when I first published, saves me bundles of time because now I write with the format already set up - 3 indent, right justify, etc.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2017)

anikad said:


> If you're willing to give a way a book for free to grow your audience, why not try and publish with one of the NY houses as a loss leader?


Just curious - but are you published with one of the large NY publishers?

Your comment implies that you don't know what is involved in querying, seeking agent representation and then going on submission. You don't simply send your manuscript to Harper Collins or S&S and ask them to publish it. The big publishers are closed to unsolicited submissions and you need to query agents. I spent a couple of years in the query trenches trying to land an agent. At the time there were stats kicked around that less than 1% of querying writers would receive an offer of representation and of those, less than half would sell their manuscript. Some writers will query multiple projects for years and never land an agent. Plus the big publishers move at a glacial speed. I once had a manuscript that took 18 months to wind its way through an open door call (by a mid sized publisher) to make its way to the acquisitions committee. I was then told I would be waiting 3 years for a publication date. You read that right, *three YEARS* because their current authors and series took priority.

There are lots of reasons why people chose to go indie. For many writers it comes from being disillusioned by the process of querying, going on sub (assuming they land an agent) and then the lack of control over the publishing process. Yes there are advantages to having a contract with one of the Big 5, including their reach and marketing heft, IF you are one of the 0.05% that makes it that far.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Tilly said:


> I once had a manuscript that took 18 months to wind its way through an open door call (by a mid sized publisher) to make its way to the acquisitions committee. I was then told I would be waiting 3 years for a publication date. You read that right, *three YEARS* because their current authors and series took priority.


 

That's crazy.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I once had a book sit at Del Rey for 40 months before I finally got a form rejection letter. This was very early in my writing life, and I'd long since moved on.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

You can submit to anybody without an agent, if you know how to address the submission. (As a matter of fact, many prefer to work without an agent, and just use a lawyer who is a publishing specialist to negotiate.)

The problems with traditional publishing are manyfold, but one of the biggest (as far as this conversation is concerned) is; it is NOT a short cut.  It is, if anything, the long way around.  It isn't free either, nor without a lot of marketing time and effort. (It's just that you're doing "B2B" marketing -- marketing yourself and your work to publishers rather than readers.)

Camille


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Tilly said:



> I once had a manuscript that took 18 months to wind its way through an open door call (by a mid sized publisher) to make its way to the acquisitions committee. I was then told I would be waiting 3 years for a publication date. You read that right, *three YEARS* because their current authors and series took priority.


Ha, wow. How in the hell is someone supposed to even remotely be marketable if things take 3 years to get published? It's like trying to throw a dart at a moving target in a hurricane while blindfolded.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> If you love to do it all yourself, as I do, that will cut your productivity in terms of the number of books you can write in half.
> Camille


This is another example of the assumption that what happens with one, happens with another. I do everything myself but it certainly doesn't cut my writing time by half or anywhere near half.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Anyone can submit a manuscript to any publisher without an agent - of course they can. They'll get it thrown back at them it's true, but they can submit it.

Personally, I prefer to sell to my readers. They are the ones I care about, not someone whose only interest is in how much money it will make. Even then they don't know what they're doing.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I shall be dead a buried by the time a trad publisher gets back to me. I haven't spent a penny on publishing in four years, only on marketing. I wish I had more to spend on that, but at the moment I am slowly building a following and using what little I make to advertise.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Puddleduck said:


> I have no words for that.  Seeing things like that, it's kinda ridiculous that anyone can tell authors with a straight face that going through that process is the only way to be a "real" author.


Unfortunately, people with no experience believe what they see on tv, when a character writes a book, sends it off and straight away it's a bestseller. In real life, things are horrific. I think if the trads don't get their act together, they'll be gone in a very short time. They are no longer the only game in town.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Puddleduck said:


> I'm pretty sure they think that all you have to do is mail it to some centralized location where all books get published, and if it's good, it'll definitely get published and they'll be able to pick up a copy in time for Christmas.


A friend of mine asked me to edit his manuscript because he wanted to "shave a couple of months off of the process." (We joke about it now and he has given me permission to use him as a cautionary example, lol.) It was... what comes before a rough draft? Like, when you scribble down some ideas on a McDonald's napkin? Anyway, about three months (of grueling work) into things, he complained one day about how long it was taking and how if he'd sent it to a regular publisher it would be on the shelves by now.

We had A Talk and he admitted that yes, he'd thought that publishers just published whatever anyone sent them, regardless of quality. In his words, he thought it was like taking clothes to a dry cleaner: They don't tell you that color looks awful on you and the cut is 20 years out of style and it's cheap material anyway, they just clean it and press it and put it on a hanger, ready to go. He did know they didn't give advances and "book deals" to everyone, only the ones they thought would sell, but couldn't understand why a publishing company would risk missing out on a potential surprise bestseller. Why would they not publish EVERYTHING on the chance that some of it will take off? He said that was the reason he didn't 'waste time' on doing any revisions or rewriting - he figured the publishing house would do all that anyway so why should he bother?

I made him come here, and a couple of other places, and read some of the stories about submitting to traditional publishing houses. (I wish I'd known about Ms. Hosth's decade-long debacle!) He resigned himself to the fact that you have to spend time on it _somewhere_ along the line, and is now working on his third book.

His astonishment at the fact that tradpub houses are highly selective and don't just throw everything at the market to see what sells made me really question the way I see the world. Like, what goes on out there that is the complete opposite of what I assume and expect?


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Doglover said:


> I shall be dead a buried by the time a trad publisher gets back to me. I haven't spent a penny on publishing in four years, only on marketing. I wish I had more to spend on that, but at the moment I am slowly building a following and using what little I make to advertise.


The last time I contacted a publisher was about 3 years ago. A friend of mine is good friends with the editor in my hometown. I was told to contact her about submissions. I read the site, then contacted her the way my friend said to.

It's been 3 years and not even so much as an email back.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

My editor when I was TPing once told me that most editors consider it their job to avoid and postpone making publishing decisions for as long as possible. That way it's not their fault when a book tanks.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> My editor when I was TPing once told me that most editors consider it their job to avoid and postpone making publishing decisions for as long as possible. That way it's not their fault when a book tanks.


Well, that's sort of true. It's less about whether the book tanks, however, than it's just that the kind of big companies that now own most of those publishing companies partly measure "success" by how long you can delay incurring and then paying debts. It's basically leverage. If you don't sign the contract until you absolutely have to, then the money makes your cash-on-hand look larger. Furthermore, it's actually a measure many stock analysts use: the longer you can get away with not paying debts is considered a sign of a strong business. (However, it is also balanced with how quickly you can force others to pay you, and publishers are not that good at that part. But that just makes it more critical that publishers put off payments as long as possible to make their balance sheets look better.)

Camille


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

SerenityEditing said:


> A friend of mine asked me to edit his manuscript because he wanted to "shave a couple of months off of the process." (We joke about it now and he has given me permission to use him as a cautionary example, lol.) It was... what comes before a rough draft? Like, when you scribble down some ideas on a McDonald's napkin? Anyway, about three months (of grueling work) into things, he complained one day about how long it was taking and how if he'd sent it to a regular publisher it would be on the shelves by now.
> 
> We had A Talk and he admitted that yes, he'd thought that publishers just published whatever anyone sent them, regardless of quality. In his words, he thought it was like taking clothes to a dry cleaner: They don't tell you that color looks awful on you and the cut is 20 years out of style and it's cheap material anyway, they just clean it and press it and put it on a hanger, ready to go. He did know they didn't give advances and "book deals" to everyone, only the ones they thought would sell, but couldn't understand why a publishing company would risk missing out on a potential surprise bestseller. Why would they not publish EVERYTHING on the chance that some of it will take off? He said that was the reason he didn't 'waste time' on doing any revisions or rewriting - he figured the publishing house would do all that anyway so why should he bother?
> 
> ...


A friend of mine had been to umpteen creative writing courses as well as doing them online. She is slightly dyslexic and can't spell anyway and has no idea what to do with a full stop or a comma or an initial capital letter. She knew that and asked the so-called tutors and was told that an editor would sort that so there was no need to worry about it.

I wonder if people like your friend realise how much it costs to publish a book. If he did, he wouldn't be thinking they'd spend out for everything they get.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Please read this, newbies!



HSh said:


> If you can afford to invest, that's great, but spend wisely and don't end up as a cautionary tale. Chasing the latest thing or believing the slickest marketer doesn't always work. People pay for all sorts of things they might regret later. I really think publishing shouldn't dig you deeper into money troubles.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Newbies, read this, too!



Annie B said:


> I think way too many people rush to publish because they are so happy to have finished something. But if your goal is making a living, maybe think about not rushing to publish. Think about what your craft might need, where you could improve, *get beta feedback from people who READ your genre. If they are loving the book, it might be worth spending money to proofread and get an amazing cover and see how it does. If you are getting a lot of silence or empty flattery or uncomfortable comments, your work might need more work.* So many times when people complain of low sales I go read the look-insides and it's obvious no cover change will save a book that needs either a total redraft or a really good developmental edit (which are not cheap). It's painful to think your craft might not be up to snuff, that you aren't communicating the story you want to yet, but every single one of us can benefit by improving craft. Great writers who sell millions still improve and try new things. If you aren't sure if your work is ready, get feedback. Do some advance review copies via LibraryThing or something or put a few chapters up on Critters or Wattpad or wherever and get feedback from people who are familiar with what you are writing.
> 
> Feedback is free, generally... so why not start your bootstrapping there while you save up for the things that will make your story shine?


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