# Be curious to hear other authors' thoughts on going to a patron-based model



## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

I self-published my first two books in the mid-Fall of 2010, and now have seven novels out. I've had ups and downs, but over the last six months, sales and royalties have been heavily trending downward. My last two releases have failed to earn enough in royalties to even pay the cost of putting them out (between editing, design, advertisement, etc.) Yet, through the grace of time, persistence, and a number of Kindle Select giveaways, I've built a small but highly committed body of readers. Despite this, it gets harder to legitimize pouring more and more money into delivering a quality product and losing thousands of dollars annually in the process. A few weeks ago, I announced a patron program, in which readers pledge $5-$350 which I can use to offset the cost of publication, and in return get a number of benefits such as advanced copies, google hangouts opportunities, and/or characters named after them. Crowdfunding for authors isn't new, but I don't know if anyone has taken this sort of direct-with-readers approach before. I've put this through my noggin in a number of ways to see if there's anything unethical or a potential for unintended consequences, and I'm not coming up with anything too worrying. (Obviously it will be a little trickier around tax time.) I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any impressions about this approach. Already in my first ten days patrons have pledged enough to cost nearly 1/3 the cost of publication of my next title.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

as you clearly know, it's crowdfunding and you will find a number of people here with very strong feelings about.'

personally, i will buy books, but i will not subsidize an author.  and honestly, i don't understand why it will take "thousands" of dollars to write and self-publish a book.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. I'm new to the kboards, so I don't know the general consensus on crowdfunding. My budget to put out a book is about $1500. Could I do it for less? Yes. Hell, I could (and have once) done it for basically nothing other than the cost of the cover art. The quality produced suffered greatly. For my situation with my available resources, this is what it takes to make something of quality. I'm certain as with all things and a diverse population with divergent needs, there is variance, both of opinion and of results.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Why should I pay you for a product you may or may not get done?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Where is this money going?


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

I'd like to get to the point where I can involve others in book production, but so far I've only spent money on a few ads. Everything else has been DYI.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Why should I pay you for a product you may or may not get done?


My effort isn't single-title driven, it's holistic. Also, as I've already put out seven full length novels, orchestrated and/or produced four audio productions, and released several shorts, I have a track record of producing material.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

It's not hard for editing alone to eat up more than that if you're writing novel-length fiction. Line edit + copy edit @ $0.02 cents / word will eat up that $1500 in only 75,000 words. Others may charge less, but that's not an unreasonable price for an editor who actually knows what she's doing.

If you're doing fantasy or SF and commissioning a piece of cover art that actually reflects what's in the book you can throw in a few hundred dollars more, plus the cost of the actual cover design/layout.

Granted you don't _have_ to do any of this, but it's certainly understandable that some people would prefer to before they publish because they'll have a far more polished final product.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

***Just saying***
But if you find you can produce work that you're happy with at that price point and break even, then more power to you. I am curious though, to know if that includes advertising, cover art, copy editing, etc. etc....because at least from an advertising perspective, I would expect your readers to do that for you. 
We are writers, seeking to hone our craft and sell our stories to interested readers. Centuries ago, they did not have the luxury of cover art, sexy models, and graphic designers.
I guess what I'm saying is figure out what can help you sell in a simplistic manner without sacrificing your budget and asking your readers to go above and beyond.
They're readers. They just want to enjoy what you've written.
If making it look pretty is your first and foremost concern, then perhaps you want to connect with then in a different way


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

MeganBryce said:


> I bought this book recently and I found it extremely helpful, especially thinking about the things you don't know you don't know. http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Finish-Running-Kickstarter-Campaign-ebook/dp/B009NNXQFQ
> 
> ....
> P.S. I was wondering why your name seemed familiar and then I realized I have one of your books sitting on my Kindle just waiting for me to be in the mood to read it.


Nice to "meet" you, Megan. Thanks for the reference. I'm not interested in the Kickstarter platform. Nothing wrong with it, its purpose is simply not in tangent with the design of my program or its aspirations.

_Edited to fix formatting of post. --Betsy_


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Where is this money going?


To offset the cost of publication and launch. If for some reason the program proved popular enough where it covered all these costs (I don't see that happening, but if...) I'd cut off additional pledges. I'm very upfront about costs and uses of funds, and I never want to provide a opportunity for mismanagement or a presumption that it's doing it anything other than what it was intended.


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## Iain Ryan (Jun 25, 2014)

I thought the OP was doing patronage not Kickstarter. With Patreon (http://www.patreon.com/) you don't have to fund something that doesn't get made. You can set it up as a type of agreed upon pre-order.

If you have a readership that can fund you, I can't see how it could hurt. No one's left out to dry. That said, I'm not sure how the math will work in your favour. I can't see people funding you more than a few dollars for each release and that's comparable to what you'd be getting through sales and the like. And holy moly, I've sold direct. Basically no one other than authors and SUPER users know how to side-load.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't know why, and this could be singular to me, but I get frustrated when people approach me about Kickstarter stuff and crowdfunding for their work. I am not trying to kick anyone while down, or try to push anyone over to my way of thinking, but as a reader, I would never donate money to an author. I want to buy a product. I don't want to invest in "some day."

Also, I agree with everyone else, how are you spending that much on prepping a book? That seems like a complete waste of money when you can buy a strong cover for less than a hundred bucks.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> +1
> 
> How on earth do you spend $1,500 on a self-published book? I'd be interested to hear the breakdown of your costs.


For my last book, copy editing alone was over $500. I have a breakdown on my website, but I don't know if it's in kboard policy to link that here? I'm not coming to this forum to self-promote, so I'm hesitant to link out [but can if that's considered in good form.]


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> Also, I agree with everyone else, how are you spending that much on prepping a book? That seems like a complete waste of money when you can buy a strong cover for less than a hundred bucks.


I'm curious that this is emerging as a recurring question. I consider my costs extremely low. Many of the highly successful authors I know incur costs in the neighborhood of $5000-$10,000 to launch a book. I'm aiming to keep costs below $1k, but generally $1200-$1500 is where it ends up. I'd be more curious how others are doing it well for less (though as mentioned, some have resources or arrangements that allow for this. I simply don't.)


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I took a look at your breakdown. $520 is not unreasonable for editing a full-length novel depending on how long it actually is. $230 might be a little high for a professional cover. $100-$150 is more reasonable and really, you can get it done for less.

I think where you're going wrong is your marketing strategy. That's obviously what's not working. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know anyone who's realized any kind of sales spike from a blog tour. And what is pre-release PR? I hope you're not doing a press release. Nothing ever comes of those, either. Just ask J.A. Konrath, for example. A very successful indie.

If you're spending that much money on marketing/PR and not really getting satisfactory results, you need to rethink.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

killianmcrae said:


> I'm curious that this is emerging as a recurring question. I consider my costs extremely low. Many of the highly successful authors I know incur costs in the neighborhood of $5000-$10,000 to launch a book. I'm aiming to keep costs below $1k, but generally $1200-$1500 is where it ends up. I'd be more curious how others are doing it well for less (though as mentioned, some have resources or arrangements that allow for this. I simply don't.)


Well, first off, I do my own covers. I'm trained, and I know that's not how it is for some people. Still, there are tons of cover sites out there. You can get a wonderful cover for less than a hundred bucks. As for editing, it depends on the work. I have a university professor who does three of my series. He's does an extensive line read. He doesn't want money, but we've worked out an arrangement so I don't constantly feel guilty and I give him $500 a book now -- for a grand total of $3,000 a year for those books. For my other stuff -- my pen name stuff -- I spend $200 for editing on each book. I write clean, so I know I'm lucky on that front, but I still need someone to proofread. For my pen name stuff, I'm putting a book together for less than $250. I happen to do quite well with my books, and I would never (ever!) spend that much on launching a book. That just flabbergasts me.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> Well, first off, I do my own covers. I'm trained, and I know that's not how it is for some people. Still, there are tons of cover sites out there. You can get a wonderful cover for less than a hundred bucks. As for editing, it depends on the work. I have a university professor who does three of my series. He's does an extensive line read. He doesn't want money, but we've worked out an arrangement so I don't constantly feel guilty and I give him $500 a book now -- for a grand total of $3,000 a year for those books. For my other stuff -- my pen name stuff -- I spend $200 for editing on each book. I write clean, so I know I'm lucky on that front, but I still need someone to proofread. For my pen name stuff, I'm putting a book together for less than $250. I happen to do quite well with my books, and I would never (ever!) spend that much on launching a book. That just flabbergasts me.


I think it all depends on how badly you want to turn a profit. I'm an old school Field Dreamer...if you love it, they will come...at least, after the first 10 sales and it's any good


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## Iain Ryan (Jun 25, 2014)

MeganBryce said:


> I swear I read a post by Joanna Penn about Patreon but for the life of me can't find it. Here's her patreon page. http://www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn
> 
> And that's all I've got for patron-type crowdfunding.


If Joanna is sitting on $87 a podcast, I think you'd be unlikely to get more per release. I imagine her audience size is pretty huge now so if I was the OP I'd be wary of factoring in amounts larger than this.

$87 doesn't buy a lot of editing / design.

I actually think something like Patreon could work for someone in the future though. The way that content is created at present, a model based on free releases and patronage is not unthinkable. I mean, it works for other type of content. Vlogging, in particular. It might work especially well alongside Podiobook or something like that. Or a serial where that $1500 could be cut across a dozen smaller releases. I'm just spitballing.

And not to be too brutal but what you kinda have proof of right now is that your business model isn't working. Expenses are too high. Content or promotion or presentation is off somewhere. Something along the lines of Kickstarter -- without some sort of serious change to how you do things -- would be funding something you know is kinda headed in the wrong direction.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

telracs said:


> as you clearly know, it's crowdfunding and you will find a number of people here with very strong feelings about.'
> 
> personally, i will buy books, but i will not subsidize an author. and honestly, i don't understand why it will take "thousands" of dollars to write and self-publish a book.


I agree completely. As an author, I find crowdsourcing unpalatable. I prefer selling myself in my completed books, not on books I'm intending to write.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

You could always get a sugar daddy or a husband...


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Donations and crowd funding is fine with me.  I mean, if people want to donate to any person or cause, I can't take issue with that.  Although I spend next to nothing on my books, I can appreciate those who spend on editors and covers, etc.

But the one issue here is that from your website, it appears you spend between 400 or 500 dollars on PR and advertising for your books.  That doesn't compute.

If you spend that much and don't get a great return, then why are you throwing good money after bad?  It doesn't seem justifiable on the face of it.  If you manage to knock off 5 or 6 hundred dollars from your startup costs, then that brings you down to around 700 bucks to produce a book.  

That still sounds very high to me, but it's not totally out of line.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Here's the bottom, sad, but truthful, line.  If, by this point of your career, you cannot produce work without relying on charity, it's all over.  For every person that donates, you will alienate dozens more. 

Don't do this - don't subject the fans you have worked hard to gain to this.  Cut your costs as suggested by others, and read this board for marketing tips. Don't sell your dignity and career down the river. Find another way.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Another model might be to monetize your blog. Clearly, you have a way to contact readers personally, and you're already doing it with your patron program. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the system at all. It's no different than friends of the orchestra or endowments for the ballet. I would certainly offer a way to acknowledge the patron in the printed book. 

To many readers, the whole process of publishing is still a mystery. They don't know, even with all of the articles and brouhaha we indies make online, that one can simply upload a word document and an image and voila, have a book in the Kindle Store. Even people I know personally who KNOW I self-publish don't believe me when I SHOW them how easy it is to write and publish. They still will say "Yeah, easy for you, but that would be impossible for me." What? Clicking buttons? 

Now, that's says nothing about the quality of what's published, merely the ease it is to publish. I spent $700 or so on my first book. I guess it could be looked that spend that much now too in a way. My business partner has a stake, because that's how she and I work, and in the beginning, we had no idea the books would sell so well. I don't begrudge her share at all, to me it's less than what she's worth for all of the support and work she gives. We have a copyeditor that makes a flat fee, for one of my novellas that's anywhere between $150-$250. We have monthly expenses that are things like Adobe, image accounts, web hosting (paid yearly), so overall, my "expenses" per book are probably higher than what others would say is smart, but it works for me and my production schedule. 

And really, what is a publisher but a patron, paying an advance for a book that might never earn out? I say do you and if it works and no readers are coming after you with pitch forks, sounds like a great way to include readers on the journey for a series they are a fan of.


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## jakelogsdon (May 16, 2014)

Crowdfunding has had a great deal of success on websites like Patreon, especially for Youtube personalities - where you develop a reasonably sized subscriber base, and people can choose to donate a certain amount to you per video produced. What you've described is fairly similar; however, producing a video for Youtube tends to take markedly less time than writing a full-sized book. I'd be curious to see if short story or flash fiction authors could get that sort of system to work since they likely have a more rapid output, but for the traditional novelist I think it would be more difficult to achieve true success with this system. If it's working for you, keep at it, I'm sure it's a great offset for production costs - but I doubt it will replace sales for income generation, as it has proven it can for "new" media 



EC said:


> Here's the bottom, sad, but truthful, line. If, by this point of your career, you cannot produce work without relying on charity, it's all over. For every person that donates, you will alienate dozens more.
> 
> Don't do this - don't subject the fans you have worked hard to gain to this. Cut your costs as suggested by others, and read this board for marketing tips. Don't sell your dignity and career down the river. Find another way.


Patron-based crowdfunding isn't charity, as those who donate receive compensation for their money in the way the OP lined out. So long as the patron system isn't the exclusive way of generating income (which it doesn't sound like it is - it doesn't replace sales) there is no detriment to any fan. In fact, it's a benefit - receive the book earlier (advance copies), interact with the author, etc. And if you don't want to do those things, it won't affect you, as you can just purchase the book like you had done previously. Cutting costs intelligently is always good advice, but there should be absolutely no hit to one's dignity for providing an _option_ to give extra.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

The first thing _I_ would do is get the heck out of Select and see what happens on all the other platforms, of which there are many. Why would you resort to crowdfunding before trying this?


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

I would absolutely accept patronage if it were offered, and there were no weird strings attached, and the person didn't seem stalkery. And if he was a super hot billionaire.

Didn't artists in the old days have patrons? It seems really cool, actually. But I'd have a hard time asking. It would have to be offered.
I think because I want my readers to think my books are awesome, and that entails them being, or at least "seeming" popular. If I had to admit they weren't even earning production costs -- well I don't know if I could. 

You honestly *can* get a quality produced ebook for less than 1500 or 500 or even 100. There are cheap advertising options that work. Get your fans to promote you. Get them to leave reviews so you can get the ads.
Like everyone upthread is suggesting, try something different before throwing more good money after bad.
Good luck whatever you end up doing!


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

jakelogsdon said:


> Crowdfunding has had a great deal of success on websites like Patreon, especially for Youtube personalities - where you develop a reasonably sized subscriber base, and people can choose to donate a certain amount to you per video produced. What you've described is fairly similar; however, producing a video for Youtube tends to take markedly less time than writing a full-sized book. I'd be curious to see if short story or flash fiction authors could get that sort of system to work since they likely have a more rapid output, but for the traditional novelist I think it would be more difficult to achieve true success with this system. If it's working for you, keep at it, I'm sure it's a great offset for production costs - but I doubt it will replace sales for income generation, as it has proven it can for "new" media
> 
> Patron-based crowdfunding isn't charity, as those who donate receive compensation for their money in the way the OP lined out. So long as the patron system isn't the exclusive way of generating income (which it doesn't sound like it is - it doesn't replace sales) there is no detriment to any fan. In fact, it's a benefit - receive the book earlier (advance copies), interact with the author, etc. And if you don't want to do those things, it won't affect you, as you can just purchase the book like you had done previously. Cutting costs intelligently is always good advice, but there should be absolutely no hit to one's dignity for providing an _option_ to give extra.


I could tell you two stories of people who completely blew their careers pursuing this model, but I can't, as one of them is a member here and he knows the other individual too. I'll let him/them speak for themselves.

People have to recognize the fragility and risk of this approach.

It appeals to fundamental delusions - the first one being that your wider circle of family and friends are remotely interested in your writing career. Another is deluding yourself that they actually want you to be successful.

Have you ever wondered why many of the best artists work in solitude? They knew to step away from the crowd.

So what now? the new modern fashion of going to strangers with the begging bowl out.

"I want to write a book - and hey, there's 50,000 other authors out there writing and self-pubbing ebooks today, but I'm special. And I want you to pay all my costs, and take away all my risks.

That's because I have a brass neck, and I'll tell myself any lie to get ahead in life."

Do it yourself, owe no one anything.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Another model might be to monetize your blog. Clearly, you have a way to contact readers personally, and you're already doing it with your patron program. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the system at all. It's no different than friends of the orchestra or endowments for the ballet. I would certainly offer a way to acknowledge the patron in the printed book.
> 
> To many readers, the whole process of publishing is still a mystery. They don't know, even with all of the articles and brouhaha we indies make online, that one can simply upload a word document and an image and voila, have a book in the Kindle Store. Even people I know personally who KNOW I self-publish don't believe me when I SHOW them how easy it is to write and publish. They still will say "Yeah, easy for you, but that would be impossible for me." What? Clicking buttons?
> 
> ...


A publisher is an investor, taking a calculated financial gamble.

I suppose there could be hilarious consequences for going down the "buy a characters name route." Scottish historical fiction say -

Beyonce pulled up her tresses and turned with a vicious swing to Wayne, 
"If you want some tonight, you better start begging," she said. Wayne, tired from a day of skirmishing with the Clan Olibata, replied, 
"I've unsheathed my scabbard enough for the one day, I'll pass on the offer. Where's my porridge?"


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Ugh, hard to read through some comments in this thread -- you'd think patronage of the arts was some new evil. Charity? Begging? Wow. I hope nobody making such negative connections ever listens to NPR, watches public TV, uses Wikipedia, or enjoys any art from centuries before the 20th (during which the current model of compensating for creative work, on a per-unit basis, took strong hold with the influence of big entertainment corporations). I would normally think that indies in artistic fields would be able to think outside the corporate box...?

There's also some widespread confusion about "crowdfunding" -- which is not the same as patronage. A patron is not necessarily "owed" anything -- unlike someone who expects a "perk" from a crowdfunding campaign. A patron _might_ expect a certain result, and could end their patronage if they didn't get it, but there's no requirement for a per-unit connection between what a patron contributes and what they receive. A patron might expect absolutely nothing in return, other than seeing the supported artist continue to create whatever it is they're creating. Or they might only want to be known as a patron of the arts, with almost no regard at all for what the artist is creating.

As for those who say "edit your own" to cut costs -- that's terribly ineffective. You know what your manuscript is _supposed_ to say, so you'll gloss right over mistakes because you're not looking at it with fresh eyes. It might not be necessary to spend large sums for editing and proofreading, but the DIY approach is one of the negative hallmarks of indie books. It does _not_ guarantee quality.



Half Pint said:


> You could always get a sugar daddy or a husband...


Wow. I hope the OP found that to be more amusing than I did.


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## jakelogsdon (May 16, 2014)

A patron-based system only has inherent risk if you attempt to use it as a primary income source, or (more risky) an exclusive income source. Begging is asking for money for nothing - an artist is a creator, and the patron is supporting the creation of that content, which is hardly nothing. It's for if you have a central group of dedicated readers who may be willing to pay more for advance copies of books or author interaction. Saying, "I'm special...I want you to pay all my costs" is not inherently wrong, as people can decide for themselves whether or not to do so. It is not a method of taking away risks - viewing it as such, I can see how people would sadly fail to reach their goals and collapse. As with all things in life, going "all in" is incredibly risky. However, it's simply _asking_ for more money. The risk is only there if you quit your day job and assume the money will absolutely arrive. Otherwise, it's just potentially granting you more money than you had before. It grants an additional option for the die-hard fan to spend more if they so choose, while maintaining the traditional sales business model as well. You risk nothing and have the possibility of gain by providing more options to the consumers of your content.

I could point to a great deal of content creators that are successfully supported by this system on its own, not to mention the even greater number that use it as an income supplement; the latter point is what I'm principally arguing for here. I'm genuinely sorry that it did not work for a couple of people that you know, but that does not in itself invalidate the feasibility of the model. Again, though, I'm not sure how viable the patron system would be for traditional novelists, but it shouldn't be dismissed as an offered option out of hand.



Crenel said:


> There's also some widespread confusion about "crowdfunding" -- which is not the same as patronage. A patron is not necessarily "owed" anything -- unlike someone who expects a "perk" from a crowdfunding campaign. A patron _might_ expect a certain result, and could end their patronage if they didn't get it, but there's no requirement for a per-unit connection between what a patron contributes and what they receive. A patron might expect absolutely nothing in return, other than seeing the supported artist continue to create whatever it is they're creating. Or they might only want to be known as a patron of the arts, with almost no regard at all for what the artist is creating.
> 
> As for those who say "edit your own" to cut costs -- that's terribly ineffective. You know what your manuscript is _supposed_ to say, so you'll gloss right over mistakes because you're not looking at it with fresh eyes. It might not be necessary to spend large sums for editing and proofreading, but the DIY approach is one of the negative hallmarks of indie books. It does _not_ guarantee quality.


^ This! And as an editor and erstwhile author in a family of authors who works with authors, you should never rely on your own final edit going into publishing! Any grammatical errors you are blind to or do not know about you will miss, and you will often only see "what your manuscript is supposed to say". You should at the very least have your book proofread by a third party before you take it to be published - and this is often _not_ exorbitantly expensive!


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

It's really funny how the  'OH GOD CROWDFUNDING IS EVIL, Y U NO MONEY?' thing remains here and yet people seem to have forgotten the $1500 price point for a 'professionally produced' novel that every one used to push that made Kickstarting necessary for those of us that aren't vomiting free money out of our snarf holes.

Crowdfunding is fine. It's a way for people to pay to make sure the things they actually want can be funded without depending on some marketing guy to cast some bones and decide that finally your demographic can be allowed to have something nice.

I'm proud to say that I've personally helped a few dozen tabletop and videogames come into being that wouldn't be around otherwise. Apparently this makes me some kind of hobo Dath Vader to some people who don't GET crowdfunding and just see poor people getting money and upward mobility without having to bend knee to a bank or venture capitalist and just demand that kind of thing stop.

If you can offer something people want to see happen and are willing to pay to see happen, crowdfunding is awesome. The only real problem is how famous people have taken places like Kickstarted over and overshadow other projects by folks that couldn't actually find things via their aforementioned snarf hole.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Suggesting that indies edit their own books is just not good advice. I don't care how good you are, you will not catch all of your errors. Another pair of eyes is called for. It cost me a grand to have my last book edited––and it was worth it to me. My editor caught so much that I overlooked. And yes, my work is clean. Been at this for years. 

I also pay for formatting; covers, etc. I could do all of this myself, but I won't. The goal is to put out a professional looking product that looks every bit as good as product created by trad publishers. You don't send forth your best effort, you only hurt yourself. This is what they're counting on.

Crowdfunding? Need financial assistance? This is your only means to do it? I don't see what the problem is.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

A publisher is not an investor. A publisher pays portions of advances and sometimes a book is never accepted fully for publishing. It's much more akin to a patron of the arts that demands or expects a specific work commissioned for the agreed upon price. Especially when you consider the percentage of authors/artist who do not earn out their advance and never see a "profit." 

Just about any method of marketing, writing or promotion can make readers angry. There's no such thing as a ruined career for pity's sakes, there's pan names for that! Could an author tick off readers by holding sequs hostage, demanding exorbitant funds etc? Absolutely. But it sounds like the OP is not going through some generically public crowd funding site but working one on one with these readers who support his work. They already know the quality and ability for him to deliver. What happened to not every great book out there sees widespread commercial success? What happened to all great stories should be told? You can't say the author doesn't deserve to publish because his works are not appealing enough to readers and then also say writer need be alone to preserve the creative process. If it's art, then the patron system hs been around since the dawn of art. . . If it's not art to write and solely a commercial exercise than all of us should only write in the handful of genres that sell in the top 100.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I think where you're going wrong is your marketing strategy. That's obviously what's not working. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know anyone who's realized any kind of sales spike from a blog tour. And what is pre-release PR? I hope you're not doing a press release. Nothing ever comes of those, either. Just ask J.A. Konrath, for example. A very successful indie.


My instinct was against a blog tour, but it was suggested by another author much more successful than I when I asked about advice for marketing a series. It was my last try at one, and it was a tremendous waste of money. I won't be doing one again, or at least, I won't be paying for one again. pre-release PR involved hiring someone to create some graphics before release and also to contact some blogs and authors to coordinate some release day buzz. No, no press releases here. No doubt, however, marketing is where my business falls flat.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> The first thing _I_ would do is get the heck out of Select and see what happens on all the other platforms, of which there are many. Why would you resort to crowdfunding before trying this?


Actually, I'm one of those rare authors who's done far better in select than out of it. Nevertheless, I will be cycling out of it as my books come to the end of the list periods for other reasons.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> *If you can offer something people want* to see happen and are willing to pay to see happen, crowdfunding is awesome.


Emphasis above is mine.

I think this is the sticking point for a lot of people. It's not when someone offers something a lot of people want that noses get out of joint. It's when people who have no idea what they're doing - and sometimes don't even have any experience producing actual work - start sticking their hands out because they feel entitled to have the best editor and the most expensive cover that people start to get testy.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2014)

Half Pint said:


> You could always get a sugar daddy or a husband...


Or a job.... :/


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

killianmcrae said:


> My instinct was against a blog tour, but it was suggested by another author much more successful than I when I asked about advice for marketing a series. It was my last try at one, and it was a tremendous waste of money. I won't be doing one again, or at least, I won't be paying for one again. pre-release PR involved hiring someone to create some graphics before release and also to contact some blogs and authors to coordinate some release day buzz. No, no press releases here. No doubt, however, marketing is where my business falls flat.


I agree with the other people who have spoken up re: the amount you're spending on marketing. Obviously, we've all got to spend money to see how different marketing strategies work but unless you've hit on a strategy that's really working, I would be hesitant to put so much money into it. Have you ever released a book without putting $500 of (sounds like worthless, frankly) marketing towards it and seen how the book sells on its own? And if you spent several hundred dollars on graphics for a pre-launch, I'd seriously consider cutting back on that because, again, it doesn't look like its working.

You have a blog, you have dedicated readers, my question is: do you have a mailing list?

A lot of what it sounds like is being tossed around as patronage benefits goes hand-in-hand with how other people leverage mailing lists and street teams to market their books for them (only, the people in their street team aren't also giving donations). Is one method better than the other? I guess it depends on how comfortable you feel taking donations.

Something I've seen graphic designers do is create a special Premium Members access, where really dedicated followers could buy into extra access that's kept behind a locked door (the equivalent here would be early access to stories, one-on-one chats with the author, essentially all the stuff you talked about as rewards for patron donations). Personally, I feel like accepting money for no clear exchange of goods muddles the relationship I have with readers (or family if then knew what i write, which they don't  lol), but selling a Premium reader package has a little bit more cut and dry throughline of money for goods.

Some readers have a lot of extra spending cash and enjoy bestowing it on creative people whose work they enjoy, but I do think you have to walk a delicate balance with that, because you may alienate a LOT of readers =/

From a readers perspective: i don't crowdfund books. period. if i want to read a book, i'll buy it. that's sort of the point for selling books (from my perspective as a reader).


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

killianmcrae said:


> No doubt, however, marketing is where my business falls flat.


I would agree with that. $1500 costs to put out a professional quality novel is perfectly normal. Of course it's possible to do it for less, but if you have established a certain level of presentation, your fans will notice if that slips. And self-editing - don't go there. It shows. It always shows.

It seems to me that you've been in this business for a while, and you're a little out of touch with what marketing strategies work right now. Currently, it's all about sites with huge mailing lists. BookBub is the ultimate way to sell ebooks. It's expensive, but absolutely worth it. But there are plenty of others that cost way less (ENT is only $15, for instance, BKnights is $20). Someone here (sorry, don't remember who) posted this hierarchy of marketing sites:

God Tier --- BookBub
Top Tier --- Ereader News Today (ENT), Booksends, Pixel of Ink, My Romance Reads
High Tier --- One Hundred Free Books (OHFB), Freebooksy, BKKnights, The Midlist, Free Kindle Books & Tips (FKBT)
Mid Tier --- AwesomeGang, Readcheaply, Ebooksoda, Fussy Librarian, Kindle Nation Daily (KND)/Book Gorilla, Book Butterfly
Low Tier --- BookBasset (too much reliance on FB), Fantasy & Sci-Fi Rock My World, Pixelscroll

Look into anything from mid-tier upwards (except Pixel of Ink; they're not accepting submissions, they choose you  ).

{Edited to expand acronyms}


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't have a problem with the idea you posted about. It's up to your readers if they want to fund you. It's not something I would do, but to each his own. I won't say don't pay for editing or covers. But look around and see if you can cut some money off that $1500.

Have you looked into changing what you're writing and how it's presented, rather than spending money on "launching" books? Look at what H M Ward calls the "trifecta of awesome": cover, title, blurb. To which I'd add genre, category and keywords. What can you easily -- and cheaply -- tweak to get more eyes on your books?



Kirkee said:


> Suggesting that indies edit their own books is just not good advice. I don't care how good you are, you will not catch all of your errors. Another pair of eyes is called for. It cost me a grand to have my last book edited----and it was worth it to me. My editor caught so much that I overlooked. And yes, my work is clean. Been at this for years.
> 
> I also pay for formatting; covers, etc. I could do all of this myself, but I won't. The goal is to put out a professional looking product that looks every bit as good as product created by trad publishers. You don't send forth your best effort, you only hurt yourself. This is what they're counting on.
> 
> Crowdfunding? Need financial assistance? This is your only means to do it? I don't see what the problem is.


If an editor is catching a lot of mistakes, then your work isn't "clean".


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Emphasis above is mine.
> 
> I think this is the sticking point for a lot of people. It's not when someone offers something a lot of people want that noses get out of joint. It's when people who have no idea what they're doing - and sometimes don't even have any experience producing actual work - start sticking their hands out because they feel entitled to have the best editor and the most expensive cover that people start to get testy.


Up until the very moment someone suggests funding other than magical (mythical) bootstraps, this community is all about telling people to get the most expensive editing and cover in order to be 'professional'. The second they do not have said completely fictional footwear accessories, that necessity becomes 'entitlement'.


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## Syc (Jan 17, 2014)

I like the patronage model and i'm pretty sure that's where eBooks are heading. In the future most books are going to be free to download, which will massively increase your reach. But obviously you won't make any money from them. You'll have, say, 10,000 people download your book for free and you will earn $0 from then, you may even make a loss when you factor is editing, cover design, marketing etc. 

BUT! A small percentage, around 2%-5%, will absolutely LOVE your stuff and want to spend money on you. You just have to figure out a way to give them something they value. This may be advance copies of sequels, having a character named after them - as the OP suggested.

Or, it may be an annual meeting with the author or a dinner with them. Or perhaps merchandise from the book (e.g. a watch that has special significance to the story and is available to buy). 

If you want to look where publishing is heading, look at the music industry. Artists don't make the bulk of their money from record sales anymore, it's from things that are SCARCE, such as music tours and merchandise.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

At the end of the day, I think everyone's opinion on subjects like this is irrelevant. People will spend their money however they see fit. If someone enjoys giving an author they like money, more power to them. Some will, some wont. 

Personally, I'd do it, what is there to lose?


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Half Pint said:


> You could always get a sugar daddy or a husband...


That's basically what I've done - my husband has a good job, and acts as my patron. I'm trying to have each book fund the next one, and was doing fine until I paid $600 for a 3-day teacher's conference that may or may not net me a penny - I'm seriously re-thinking that one! I suppose it all depends on whether I can get my common core guide and coloring book pulled together enough to have available.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

TobiasRoote said:


> Or a job.... :/


In fact, I have two jobs: one full time, one part time.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Lia Cooper said:


> You have a blog, you have dedicated readers, my question is: do you have a mailing list?
> 
> A lot of what it sounds like is being tossed around as patronage benefits goes hand-in-hand with how other people leverage mailing lists and street teams to market their books for them (only, the people in their street team aren't also giving donations). Is one method better than the other? I guess it depends on how comfortable you feel taking donations.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, Lia. I do have a mail list with nearly 900 people on it. Yes, not as big as many others, but still sizable.

There is, of course, some variance of opinion. As a reader, if there was an author whose work I found engaging, I would consider that an investment of a product in which I believe. I look at it (and maybe this is my Silicon Valley enculturation coming through) as investing in a start up, one that has a reasonable expectation (but no guarantee) of success, which I believe in enough to invest in. I have done this for a number of musical acts I believe in that have gone on to success because of early backers like me.

I think a few other commentators have already iterated my belief, and I do believe my initial thread may have been slightly misworded. I'm not turning to patrons in lieu of selling books as I do now. I'm looking for second-round investors. Now that I have a good base of work with generally good reviews and a growing readership, that I've been around long enough to have learned from most of my mistakes, and that I've cemented a plan about the way I need to go forward for the next 12-18 months, I'm asking for the support of those who can help, knowing that those who cannot or will not will still benefit, and both being aware of that fact.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

carinasanfey said:


> You say you haven't made the money you spent back on your last two books. If this is the case, why do you continue to spend that amount of money? Surely the point of paying for such expensive services would be to increase your profits in the long run, not to prevent you from making any profit at all?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me. If a professionally-edited book isn't going to sell any better than a self-edited book,what exactly is your editor doing that makes the money you spend so worthwhile?


It takes time to build a readership and turn a profit. Continuing to invest in producing the highest quality product makes perfect sense to me. It will eventually pay off. There are a lot of things we can do to try to increase profits, but I don't believe sacrificing quality should ever be one of them.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You said you have several books out.    Have any of them made back their original investment? 

Now, I asked you a question up thread.    You did not answer my question but told me when you got the funding you were looking for you would cut off the donations. 
You want me to support your book.    What exactly will this money be going for?  I would want to know exactly where my investment is going.  Some of us might know of ways to cut some costs so you make a better profit to reinvest in your next book.

Oh and I think in your case a sugar mama would be better than a sugar daddy.  Or just have some jelly beans.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> You said you have several books out. Have any of them made back their original investment?
> 
> Now, I asked you a question up thread. You did not answer my question but told me when you got the funding you were looking for you would cut off the donations.
> You want me to support your book. What exactly will this money be going for? I would want to know exactly where my investment is going. Some of us might know of ways to cut some costs so you make a better profit to reinvest in your next book.


Apologies, I thought I had answered that. The funds would be used for the costs editing, cover art (I do all the technical parts of cover art myself, but I like to try to get a little higher tier RF art, so my cover isn't the same as five other's), ARC production and processing (I keep this very low in number, but there are few of my common pre-readers/reviewers who read only print), and set up. I've actually reduced my expenses exceptionally by no longer producing book trailers, by formatting my own, and by switching print distributors. This is all spelled out to patrons before they pledge.

And to answer the first question second: yes, I've had five books which made back their original COP and then some, and I have no doubt the two I noted that haven't eventually will as well. It will take longer, however. I have structured my patron program so that all but one level includes books upon release (or sometimes, in advance of release), so in a way the patrons are also pre-ordering my future books. It's a kind of pay-it-forward way of looking at the author-reader relationship, but one that doesn't negate traditional models either.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you for answering my questions.    That sounds so much better.    
As a reader, I appreciate that you know you need an editor.    I tend to get grumpy if I see too many errors in a book.  Or run across too many unedited books in a row.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> So you can afford to spend the $1,500 you insist is necessary to launch your books, yet you want other people to give you their money? I find the ethics behind this incomprehensible.


If you're approaching authorship as a business, seeking investors to share in your vision isn't unethical at all. It's standard business practice. Further, as I've already invested thousands of dollars of my own platform over the last five years to build slowly but steadily the foundation of the business, how seeking investors could be construed as unethical is beyond me. I guess that's just something on which we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

carinasanfey said:


> I wasn't suggesting the OP sacrifice quality; I was suggesting that the evidence seems to show that he is not getting quality in exchange for his money right now. If he spends that much on the book, he should be able to make it back once the book goes live.


It could be genre, it could be lack of visibility, or a host of other things that aren't related to the quality of the service he is getting in exchange for his money. A lack of good editing can certainly kill sales, but quality editing does not guarantee sales.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

I think what might be causing the disconnect here for a lot of people about what you're asking is this:

(1) You have the money to put forward the $1500 for your next book. 

(2) You admit that your books earn out and then some so you'll get that back.

(3) Yet now you want someone else i.e., readers to pay that upfront cost so you don't have to.

(4) You'll still sell the book and make presumably the $1500 plus more back.

So essentially you've gotten rid of any costs on your part. You just want more money.  And I guess one could say who doesn't want more money?  But IT SOUNDS LIKE you're asking for patrons because you're work simply isn't selling enough and you want the risk off your back.

Further, the idea of people paying you upfront as an investment doesn't really make sense. What they want is the BOOK itself, which is what you're going to give them regardless of whether they fund you or not.  What more do they get from giving you more than the book is going to cost them?  Are you not going to write if they don't?  I just don't see the impetus for people to do this to get a book you'll write anyways.  

An idea would be if these people fund you, you will write the book THEY want you to write.  That makes sense.  Patrons in general told the artists what they wanted.  I'm actually a patron to several artists. But I still direct their work. I give them freedom, too, but I'm the final judge.

I guess if readers want to do this cool, but unless you're very popular, which from your own words  you are not, then this isn't really going to go anywhere and may offend many of the small readership you do have.

I would seriously consider other marketing alternatives.  Many people have already posted what they think you should look into and I second that.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

carinasanfey said:


> So you can afford to spend the $1,500 you insist is necessary to launch your books, yet you want other people to give you their money? I find the ethics behind this incomprehensible.


Okay, that's it.

Having two jobs in this day and age does NOT -*NOT*- mean that a person can afford to pull $1500 out of their butt. You have no idea what expenses the OP has to incur outside of their books and thus have absolutely, positively NO RIGHT to make these assumptions and judgements about them.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

And the only people who would be offended by crowdfunding (Who are these people? What sort of tainted wacky tabaccky are they smoking to make them angry enough not to buy a book they want because of the revenue source of the freaking books being volunteers?!)... ARE NOT GOING TO BE ON A CROWDFUNDING SITE TO SEE  THE PROJECT.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

vlmain said:


> A lack of good editing can certainly kill sales, but quality editing does not guarantee sales.


^^^THIS. I mentioned in one comment that I tried this once, putting out a book without due diligence with the belief that the engaging story would overshadow a lack of proper editing and a handful of typos. There was a (very justifiable) backlash which hurt me professionally and the echoes of which I still hear on occasion. I shall not practice that anon. As a reader, I've also encountered some terribly flawed (and I speak here of grammatical and spelling flaws, not plot) books that were very popular and highly recommended. When I read a book an author has put out and asked me to pay for, in which the author can not respect their own work or my investment of a purchase enough to have prepared the best quality product they can, I find that presumptive and insulting. Granted some authors can put out work that is nearly flawless without editing; I believe they are far fewer in number than those who perceive themselves to be so. I personally know best selling authors who won't even post to their blogs or send out a newsletter without having it proofed by a professional.

We all grow to different heights and the size of the stool we need to reach the top shelf is not the same for each of us.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

killianmcrae said:


> I'm curious that this is emerging as a recurring question. I consider my costs extremely low. Many of the highly successful authors I know incur costs in the neighborhood of $5000-$10,000 to launch a book. I'm aiming to keep costs below $1k, but generally $1200-$1500 is where it ends up. I'd be more curious how others are doing it well for less (though as mentioned, some have resources or arrangements that allow for this. I simply don't.)


$1500/book seems reasonable for me, especially if you are including advertising and promotions. But, if you are consistently not seeing a return on that money, you may want to cut back on costs.

I would consider donating to authors who write material that isn't commercial enough to make big bucks. One author I follow writes romances with disabled heros. I'd donate to her in a heartbeat.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Up until the very moment someone suggests funding other than magical (mythical) bootstraps, this community is all about telling people to get the most expensive editing and cover in order to be 'professional'. The second they do not have said completely fictional footwear accessories, that necessity becomes 'entitlement'.


I don't know what you mean by 'magical bootstraps'. Sorry if I'm being thick.

I disagree, though, that this community is all about telling people they need the most expensive editing and cover. I've seen plenty of more experienced people tell the new guys where they can get good covers and editing for cheaper prices. Personally I'd be a little leery of recommending really cheap editing to someone who didn't already have a strong understanding of grammar, because it's too easy for them to be taken by an unscrupulous editor. But since you can already see the quality that you're getting when you buy a cheap pre-made, there's much less likelihood of someone getting screwed. James at GoOnWrite makes great pre-made covers for $30, and there are plenty of others who charge $50 or $60 lovely pre-mades. There are plenty of people happy to give recs. I'm sure there are also plenty who would be willing to barter for editing or cover services. It's not all about being the having the most expensive thing.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Shayne, 
On those that don't have a good grasp of grammar,  I personally recommend talking to the GED or ESL people at the local community college.    They can tell you what would be best for you.  Be it their classes or a remedial English class.    
This is much better so they don't get screwed over by a bad editor. 
ESL is English as a second language.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> And the only people who would be offended by crowdfunding (Who are these people? What sort of tainted wacky tabaccky are they smoking to make them angry enough not to buy a book they want because of the revenue source of the freaking books being volunteers?!)... ARE NOT GOING TO BE ON A CROWDFUNDING SITE TO SEE THE PROJECT.


I assume the first people he's going to approach are the ones on his mailing list, NOT on the crowdfunding site. He's going to have to be pulling people INTO the crowdfunding site to fund him. So while he may get some funders who are hanging about crowdfunding sites, a lot of them will come from elsewhere. Look at the responses he's gotten here: some find it offensive. I'm betting a few on his mailing list will, too.

It's clear that you think crowdfunding is great, fine, whatever. I'm personally actually neutral on it and think if he wants to do it: go ahead! But he asked for our opinions on it and how it might be perceived and some people's opinions are negative, which is what he wants to know as well.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

X. Aratare said:


> I think what might be causing the disconnect here for a lot of people about what you're asking is this:
> 
> (1) You have the money to put forward the $1500 for your next book.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you have it quite right. From 2010-2012, I released five books which, in time, made back their initial costs of publishing. For several of these books, it took up to two years for that to happen. The profit I've made on the books beyond that has been less than four digits, and over an extended period. It's not as though I'm one of those authors who pays their mortgage with my royalties. At best, my monthly royalties might help pay for a week of groceries, if I'm having a good month.

I've already cut back dramatically on costs of production. The only further thing I can cut now that is optional and not required as far as I am concerned is the marketing, the likes of which I do is barebones. I don't believe NOT marketing is an option when you decide to pursue writing as a business and not a hobby. Yes, I need to reassess what marketing I do, and to what extent. Yes, I can continue to publish books using the money I earn from my "real" jobs, and I will continue to do that if I must. This both because I believe in my product, and because there is a sustained albeit small demand for my product. I have invested thousands of dollars in building my platform. To suggest I don't have skin in the game is not accurate. There would be no game at this point without the significant pounds of flesh I've already given.

The biggest disconnect I believe is happening here is that many seem to believe asking and expecting are the same thing. I ask for patrons, but I don't expect people to just hand me money without purpose or prudence. In return, I provide them with opportunities for direct communication, insights into my plans, and the ability to give me feedback in advance of my taking actions. This is classical patronage. I'm not extorting anyone, I'm not making false claims, and I'm not threatening to stop writing if they don't agree or want to participate. I'm just telling it like it is: this is something I like doing, it produces an artistic product they enjoy, and I would like to continue both for their benefit and mine. I can do it alone. I can do it better and faster with help, and with the object of help being the expansion of a readership so that the impetus for my asking for help in the future is removed.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> Editing, like writing, is a skill. It can be learned.


So can eye surgery, or embalming. Just because a skill can be learned does not mean you should expect to get good results performing it on yourself. Even a great editor should not edit his or her own work; good editing requires detachment from the manuscript, something the author _can not achieve_.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

A mailing list with 900 readers on it is not to be sneezed at. I remember reading somewhere around here that all you need for success is 1,000 dedicated readers on your mailing list. Now, if you list consists of people that only signed up to get something free, then that's a different story.

Even if your "patrons" fund your next book, you need a new marketing strategy. Cheaper does not necessarily mean ineffective. Freebooksy and ENT are just two of the very reasonably priced sites. 

Are any of your books in a series? I find that the first book permafree in a series is the most effective strategy. If you don't have any series, can you write a prequel to one or more of your books that you can make permafree? Novella length works fine. 

I honestly don't think I'd write anything less than a trilogy every again.

One more question, do you ever promote your older books or do you stop once you've laid out the initial marketing costs?


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> A mailing list with 900 readers on it is not to be sneezed at. I remember reading somewhere around here that all you need for success is 1,000 dedicated readers on your mailing list. Now, if you list consists of people that only signed up to get something free, then that's a different story.
> 
> Even if your "patrons" fund your next book, you need a new marketing strategy. Cheaper does not necessarily mean ineffective. Freebooksy and ENT are just two of the very reasonably priced sites.
> 
> ...


Three of my books are part of series, the others are either not or are but don't yet have other installments. I recently tried ENT and Freebooksy and didn't see any significant results from them, though I'm open to trying again with a different book. [I tried them with my historical romance.]

I would say my mail list is probably about 1/3 readers and the rest those who signed up through a promotion. Good point about quantity not equaling quantity.

Of course, I might just be tiptoeing around a darker truth: perhaps my books simply aren't that good.  Only, and though of course every author gets some bad reviews, I have mostly positive reviews and a good number of them for a self-published author.

I, of course, don't think my books are unworthy of success, and I would never take money from anyone in any form through any vehicle if I did. 
I am trying to move more towards shorter books and writing series rather than longer books that are stand alone. I have considered making the first book of my three-book series peramfree, but not until the final installment comes out next year.

I honestly don't do much in the way of promotion as most any promotion I've done during the last few years didn't seem to have much of an effect. (Outside of bookbub, which I've done several times with tremendous results, but which is now out of my reach.)


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

MeganBryce said:


> I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


So... you're going to perform your own eye surgery?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> So... you're going to perform your own eye surgery?


Well, in all fairness, it's not as risky as do-it-yourself embalming.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Maybe these threads will interest you.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,169375.msg2422929.html#msg2422929

or this one

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,189673.msg2676158.html#msg2676158

I think maybe you're in the same position many of us are, only we (I) don't spend as much money. I do have my books professionally edited, but I do my own covers. I have two 12 book series out there and branding those would be cost prohibitive, especially since one series are novelettes priced at 99 cents.

Anyway, that wasn't your original question. I personally wouldn't seek patrons, but that doesn't mean I think you shouldn't. The only person whose opinion matters is your own.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

vlmain said:


> Well, in all fairness, it's not as risky as do-it-yourself embalming.


Thank you for a great laugh.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

vlmain said:


> Well, in all fairness, it's not as risky as do-it-yourself embalming.


Yeah, but if you botch that, you wouldn't care so much...


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

I don't think $1500 is that high. By the time Fallen Mangrove was released at the beginning of October, I'd spent $1400 on the cover and editing alone. Throw in the cost of buying, then shipping, nearly a dozen paperbacks to beta readers and it was easily $1500. By the end of the first month, I'd spent another $500 on advertising, for a total of $2000. Since then, it's sold over 6000 copies, half at $3.99. It's an investment in success, not an expense.

How did I get to the point where I can spend two grand to get a book out without blinking an eye? It's not my money. It's my readers' money. Not in the sense of the OP, on the front end, though. Since starting on this adventure, I've only paid $50 out of pocket to have my first book proofread. I paid myself back with early sales from that and paid for the next book's proofreading. Sales from those two paid for the third and advertising on the first. My business, and make no mistake, you are a business, started out in the red, but was in the black within three months.

There are things that I'll pay up front for. But not a book. And I'll never voluntarily subsidize anyone or any business. If a business can't produce a widgit and make enough profit on it to continue making widgits, it's right and proper for that business to fail. I'm sorry if that sounds soulless, it's not meant to. By rethinking their approach and building better widgits, a business can turn the corner to profitability.

We are all in the business of story telling. Most of our businesses are one person operations. The sooner you can move away from that, the better your business will become. That doesn't mean a full staff of ghost writers and a corner office in Manhattan. It means, paying a professional to do something that you're either not that good at, or your time will be better served doing something you are good at. Telling stories. Everyone has a friend who works in sales, from a department store to a used car lot. Give them a free book and promise a steak dinner after they read it and write a blurb. Salesmen sell and the blurb is one of the first sales tools in our belt. Find a good cover designer. Mine are simple. They're just a photo I bought the writes to (same as hiring a photographer) and a graphics designer buddy slapped a title on for $25. Ten friends that you give a free copy to, can be your first editorial team. It won't be perfect, but it'll be better.

By spring, I will have a paid employee working in an office. It'll be small at first, just my wife in our home office. By the end of the year, she'll be my office manager and we'll have a small office in Beaufort, SC, where we plan to move this summer. But, each step will be no more than what the past has shown to be able to support. If you take nothing else away from this, please remember this. Don't treat your business like it's profitable from day one, it's not going to be. But, if you move slowly and reinvest your income into your business, there won't be any need to look for alternate ways to float your boat. Boats have been launched successfully for thousands of years. Stick to what has worked in the past. In our case, a good story and hard work.


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## Lia Cooper (Jan 28, 2014)

I think Wayne's hit on one of the reasons this has ignited a bit of a debate around here: a lot of us approach indie publishing as a BUSINESS. So when we discuss about other organizations that run off of a patron model (e.g. NPR or PBS or a Philharmonic Orchestra) most of those are non-profits. 

I think the reason the suggested of using a patron model for bookselling is grating on some of us because from a business perspective it sounds a lot like a bail-out.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Wayne earned his spurs. The OP wants his bought for him.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2014)

killianmcrae said:


> I self-published my first two books in the mid-Fall of 2010, and now have seven novels out. I've had ups and downs, but over the last six months, sales and royalties have been heavily trending downward.


I would think that if your business is failing, you should look to why it is failing instead of looking for handouts.

Publishing is a business, not a charity. If after publishing seven books you have not recovered your expenses nor made enough profit to pay for the next project, you need to look at your overall business plan and determine what the problem is. You may be using the wrong pricing model, or your marketing plan is not suitable for the target demographic you need to reach, or your costs are out of line.

Call it patronage. Call it crowdfunding. Call it whatever you want. But at the end of the day you are asking strangers to finance your for-profit business for you because you either cannot afford to or chose not to.

Assuming the problem is not the product (and I have no idea, as I don't know what titles you have published) then you need to consider how you have been running your business. A common problem with indie authors is that they price too low under the assumption that their book will be 'available forever' and thus they will make their money back 'eventually.' But eventually doesn't always come because while ebooks may have an indefinite "self life" that doesn't mean the window of opportunity to sell them is perpetual. At $1500 a book, you need to sell over 4200 copies to recover your costs if the book is priced at 99 cents. You only need to sell just over 700 if the book is priced at $2.99. That is a huge volume difference.

Calls for patronage would seem to be nothing more than a temporary Band-Aid to a larger problem.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am one of Wayne's readers.    He writes a very good book.    I am noticing something and I may be way off base.  The authors that treat this like a business seem to be more successful than those that think it is an easy way to make money. 

I do not think that you can just throw words in a document,  hit upload and expect to make a bundle.    

Now this idea might work for a month or two but readers will get wise to your tricks.

Sure I will be Wayne's patron just as soon as his next book comes out.  But don't expect me to give him money for something not out yet.

Other question on this patronage thing,
What guarantee do I have you won't take the money and run?


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

I have seen a lot of authors do it like bloggers and author entrepreneurs and I approve it. For the editing 0.05 makes 1.35# per page, so 80 k words novel would be edited for 400$ approximately. I am curious though, where do you find your freelancers?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Antara Man said:


> I have seen a lot of authors do it like bloggers and author entrepreneurs and I approve it. For the editing 0.05 makes 1.35# per page, so 80 k words novel would be edited for 400$ approximately. I am curious though, where do you find your freelancers?


Check the KB yellow pages.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

ITT: Venture Capital and business loans are not things, or if they are, the common man should not be allowed to do them or less scamful/predatory versions thereof.


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Calls for patronage would seem to be nothing more than a temporary Band-Aid to a larger problem.


I think that's what I've been suggesting...


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## killianmcrae (Dec 10, 2014)

Also, this is neither here nor there, but... why do you y'all keep referring to me as "he"?








<<<is woman


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