# How to avoid the KDP Adult rating when writing erotic fiction



## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Hi, I will soon be self-publishing my first novel. It's an erotic thriller and I would like to get some advice about how to avoid getting put into the Adult category "dungeon" as I have spent 2 years writing and need some extra income to help with some medical issues I have.

I understand the cover is important and I have redesigned the jacket so that there is nothing too suggestive on it, but would like advice as to whether the attached photo would risk putting me into the adult category. http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/young-lovers-kiss-gm514914495-47766660 (I tried to attach it as a file, but can't so am inserting a link).

The jackets is very tame and my book has no incest, bestiality, violence or any of the other stuff that can get you put into Adult, but it has a scene between a husband and wife during a fight where the husband is forceful when it comes to kissing. He basically kisses his wife with his tongue while she is resisting and is not into it. She doesn't shout Stop or anything, but she's conflicted - part of her wants him, but she is still very hurt by what he has done. After about half a page where she resists him, she realizes she wants him and consents to everything else enthusiastically (not reluctantly) and they have consensual sex. My question is: could this fall into the dubious consent category and trigger an adult rating or is the adult rating mainly to do with the cover?









The resistance during the kissing scene is very brief and is more to do with the tension between the two characters than anything else.

Does anyone have experience with this?

Otherwise, there is a scene with a swingers club (all consensual) at one point. I think that is allowed in the erotic or dark romance category, right?

I read that if I write a disclaimer saying that this book is for a mature audience only, it can get me put into Adult. Is that right?

If anyone has any advice about whether I am risking an adult rating with any of this, please let me know. I have put so much into my novel and don't want to have it crash and burn before it even has a chance.

Thanks!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Don't put the book into the erotica category.  That's the first step. Secondly, don't use any erotica-type keywords (no mentions of any sexual things that would normally lead someone to think the book was erotica).

Otherwise, general fiction books have all sorts of things in them, including rape, incest, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and so on, so long as the scenes are not described in a way that is supposed to arouse the reader sexually.

I've seen books with mature content warnings, also "trigger" warnings sometimes, because some subjects are hard for readers for whatever reason. These have sometimes gotten people pushed into the adult dungeon, but if I remember correctly, these were erotica or erom books.

I can't see the cover image you linked, but in general you can get away with things in non-erotic genres that would get you dungeoned, blocked or even have your account terminated if you tried it on a erotica book. Still, I'd play it on the safe side, because you never know when the rules at Amazon will change, nor if you might get a more prudish reviewer.


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## thesios (Sep 7, 2015)

if u get stuck in the dungeons you can always revised your covers or some of ur story

as long as u dont get rosa/rose 

she is merciless


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## Krista.Cairn (Jun 13, 2014)

If you sell people erotica without them knowing it's in there, you are going to generate an enormous amount of hate. Just saying.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

MonHH said:


> She doesn't shout Stop or anything, but she's clearly not into it. After about half a page, she fully consents to everything else enthusiastically and they have consensual sex. My question is: could this fall into the dubious consent category and trigger an adult rating or is the adult rating mainly to do with the cover?


If she is "clearly not into it" then the husband is an expletive. That is the sort of behavior that makes me dislike make characters.

Not commenting on whether or not your book would get flagged, as I don't read erotic books (for basically this sort of reason). Just saying that in 2016, people are hyper-sensitive to the concept of "affirmative consent." A woman doesn't have to say "no" to get a man to stop, particularly when as you say she is "clearly not into it" and sending other body cues for him to stop. Particularly her husband, who SHOULD know her well enough to understand her body language. The scenario is the sort of thing that makes my skin crawl, as it seems to reinforce the notion that women "just play hard to get" and that men are entitled to sex.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks so much She-la-ti-da and Thesios.

I really appreciate your advice. I had originally written a non-erotic book and made it into an erotic thriller because I know that is what sells the most and need to make some supplemental income due to various issues I've been having. I only found out about this "dungeon" place a week or so ago and it was really shocking and upsetting that they even have that when they put well-known explicit Erotica by famous authors like EL James into the Contemporary Women's camp, and then put independents into the Adult Camp for minor things.

Although the sex scenes only make up about a quarter of the book at the very most, they are clearly there to arouse the reader. Would that be a problem? I am happy to be put into the Erotica category, but not the Adult category. I still intend to publish with Smashwords and know they are much more lenient, but don't my shot at Kindle to be compromised after so much work.

Because the sex scenes are designed to arouse, does that mean that I have to write a disclaimer? Is the disclaimer my choice?

The back jacket text is mild, but it makes it pretty clear that it's a story about love and lust and betrayal and that the female protagonist desires the male character. There is nothing graphic in it.

However, I do use explicit names of body parts. I guess they have some system of counting those or something. Could that be a problem? Like I said, it's absolutely nothing more explicit than the well-known erotica that is in the Contemporary Women's category?

I agree, I will play it on the safe side.

As for Bards and Sages, I really don't appreciate your opinion. I didn't ask for it. It's not helpful in any way shape or form. As you said, you don't read Erotica, so why even bother forcing your opinions on writers in the genre? You didn't offer any advice, but just hijacked the thread to espouse your opinions and unrealistic, puritanical world view. 

I can see you don't read this type of book, because my book is tamer than almost all other erotic fiction I've read. As for the male character being very slightly forceful when kissing for about 10 seconds after a fight, please wake up and enter the real world. This happens all over the world every day in half the couples in the country, both by men and women. It doesn't make them monsters. It's part of life. It's sometimes a way to try to make a connection. To ignore that fact is totally dishonest. 

My female character in no way shape or form reluctantly agrees. She is an active participant. There is a lot of tension between them. It's about the breakdown of a relationship where dysfunctional stuff happens. I don't portray it as this great thing. I would never write a scene where a woman was forced into sex, ever. Your opinions are completely unfounded and just not necessary. 

If you'd have read 50 Shades, you'd see that constant pressure by the male protagonist towards the female is a crux of the ENTIRE book. And that book didn't do too badly, so I'm guessing there are a lot of women who don't mind that, though I guess you're one of the types who protest at that book. Well good for you, but this thread is about advice and helping, not hijacking people's questions.

The male characters in my book are well-rounded, respectful and passionate and that scene is extremely mild and isn't shown as this really hot, great thing. It's shown as part of the breakdown of a relationship.

Good luck to you and I hope your writing goes well, but please don't hijack my thread again. It's hard enough to be a first time writer and have to navigate so many difficult things, without being torn down by other writers and their unsolicited opinions of 150,000 words based on a brief summary of a half-page scene. Please go and help someone instead of wasting your time on me. I don't respect your opinion because I know my book and would like to receive some helpful advice from some of the kinder people in this forum. I have a few friends here who told me that this was a positive place, and I would like my thread to be that. Thanks.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll speak to the attached photo. It's borderline because there may be a bare booby there. Now, I can see from the color versions of the photo that she's actually wearing a bra, but that doesn't show in the B&W. I'd stick to one of the colored versions.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If she is "clearly not into it" then the husband is an expletive. That is the sort of behavior that makes me dislike make characters.
> 
> Not commenting on whether or not your book would get flagged, as I don't read erotic books (for basically this sort of reason). Just saying that in 2016, people are hyper-sensitive to the concept of "affirmative consent." A woman doesn't have to say "no" to get a man to stop, particularly when as you say she is "clearly not into it" and sending other body cues for him to stop. Particularly her husband, who SHOULD know her well enough to understand her body language. The scenario is the sort of thing that makes my skin crawl, as it seems to reinforce the notion that women "just play hard to get" and that men are entitled to sex.


This is fiction, Julie.  In fiction there exists a consent that doesn't exist in the real world, called dubious consent, which is a huge trope in romance novels since the first romance novel ever romanced. It's huge in erotica, and in the "dark romance" category it has often skirted the line between dubious consent and non-consent, and I think fallen on the non-side an awful lot. And it sells. It is what it is. I think lecturing someone about something a character does in a novel is beyond the pale, really.

From the description, OP, it sounds like one of the mildest erotica novels anyone could likely find on Amazon. You should have no problem with the content, though getting eyes on it might be kind of hard since it doesn't seem to have any definable kink or trope.


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

Dark erotica which has quite a bit of dubious consent and things like kidnapping and sometimes violence towards women sells well, so I don't think that one kissing scene deserves a disclaimer. You should be fine. The cover pic is also fine. There's nothing ban-hammer about it. At first, I was thinking some of the other photos from the set might be better because they're clearer but then the blur goes well with the whole theme of your book. Good luck.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, let's not derail the thread, Julie.  Frankly, scenes like the one described play out in books other than erotica but MonHH wasn't asking whether she should write the scene but rather whether it would trigger being sent to Amazon's dungeon--a legitimate question.

MonHH, welcome to KBoards.  This IS a friendly place, but people do tend to have strong feelings sometimes and can't resist posting.  If someone posts something that is inappropriate, please don't hesitate to report the post and let us handle it.  And, remember, not every post needs to be responded to.  It's your thread, you can choose to not respond to posts that you don't think add to the conversation.  We do ask that responses address the post and not the poster, thanks.

Betsy


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## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

Krista.Cairn said:


> If you sell people erotica without them knowing it's in there, you are going to generate an enormous amount of hate. Just saying.


I can appreciate wanting to avoid the dungeon, but I have to agree with Krista. If you eliminate every possible indication that the book is erotica, you're going to be cheating readers who buy it specifically because they're led to believe it doesn't contain any. That type of deception will cost you in reviews. You need to strike a balance.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thank you Briteka, Shelley, cvwriter, Betsey and Catana.

I really appreciate your feedback.

I agree that I have to make it clear that the book is Erotica. I think I have done it with my back cover. There are no explicit sexual words, but there are words like "lust", "desire", "scorched", "acute craving", "flames", "dizzying", "possessed", "educated", so I think that makes it pretty clear. I would like to avoid writing the disclaimer if possible because I want to avoid the dungeon. Do you think that is okay, as long as the description on the jacket strongly indicates that the book is a romance novel with some heat? I have just opened a book by a famous Erotica author who is very graphic in her writing, and there is no disclaimer, though I know that famous authors can get away with _a lot_ more.

The book itself isn't necessarily mild. It's fairly graphic and explicit in many parts. The character's husband, who is in his early thirties and hot, is sexually dominant, but I mentioned the kissing scene as that is the only scene that could be accused of dubious consent, in terms of the kissing and the fact that she is pinned against the wall for a short moment. All other scenes have full consent, though this male character is clearly dominant. I have already rewritten the kissing scene to remove the word Stop, and I hope that is enough to avoid the dungeon.

Thesios, you mentioned trying to avoid Rose or Rosa. Is there any way of doing that or is it just a question of chance?

If I publish under Romance and Contemp. women's lit, if my book were to be flagged for the dungeon, how long would that typically take? Can it happen at any time?

Thanks Betsy for your advice. I will try to ignore comments like this. I've put so much into my book over the last two years and it's really upsetting to have people just tear it down, based on two simplistic paragraphs I wrote to give an overall impression of one scene. This writing and publishing stuff sure is hard enough as it is.

Thanks so much for any advice.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

If it is erotica then put it in those categories. I have some short erotica that sells fine and the only categories I put it in are the erotica ones, then use keywords to fit into other appropriate cats. 

Just choosing erotica category won't get you dungeoned but listing it as romance when it clearly is erotica will lead to bad reviews, complaints and such issues. Not worth the hassle.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FWIW, as a reader, if I'm looking for erotica, I know how to find it. If I'm not, I roll my eyes if it pops up and ignore it. 

But I can certainly imagine people being very much put off by it popping up when not expected -- for example if you're on a work computer at lunch time, or browsing with a youngster. 

So my preference is for people to categorize the books CORRECTLY so that when I want to find them I can and when I want something else, the wrong thing doesn't keep popping up at me. 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that mis-categorization is a sure way to make me NEVER buy those books, actually. So it has the opposite effect to that which is likely intended.

And I note that I feel the same way about mysteries that pop up as science fiction or vice versa. Though I also don't see that nearly as often as something fairly raunchy or smutty popping up among 'ordinary' reads. Such has been my experience, at least.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I think you're getting confused between erotica, which has very specific (ha! that's a joke) limits on what you're allowed to do so far as cover, blurbs and content, and erotic romance, which is somewhat more lax (or even wide open, from what I've seen lately).

My advice, if you consider the book erotica (the plot is about the characters having a sexual relationship), then put it in that category and walk the fine line on covers, titles, blurb and content.

If the book is more about a romantic relationship, that is, the main goal of the book is for them to have a HEA (happily ever after) or a HFN (happy for now) ending -- they get married/engaged/commit to each other only -- then you can put it in romance. There is a bit more leeway in covers, titles and blurbs, and content sometimes gets very erotic, even with some roughness (but watch out for rape/non-consent issues, which can get through, as in dark fantasy, but not always).

The adult dungeon is mostly used for erotica. You don't have to stay there, because you can ask what got you there (sometimes you'll get a vague answer, most most authors know why if they're honest), fix it, and email Amazon and ask to be removed.

The Rose/Rosa thing has to do with the people reviewing erotica. There's also Carlos F. It's sort of a joke in the erotica community about getting reviewed by the more prurient contingent of reviewers and getting held up, dungeoned, blocked or accounts terminated. For erotica, it's usually best not to upload on weekends.

If you are intending to write erotica, I'd recommend joining the forum at Dirty Discourse (I can't link, as there is erotic content there). It's a paid forum (several levels of cost), but it's very good for those writing in that genre, and they also cover romance/erom. Join, read, learn. Ask questions about stuff you don't understand.


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## janetlynn (Sep 7, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I think you're getting confused between erotica, which has very specific (ha! that's a joke) limits on what you're allowed to do so far as cover, blurbs and content, and erotic romance, which is somewhat more lax (or even wide open, from what I've seen lately).


This.

The problem is that you need to keep your ear to the ground to know what's causing trouble in erotica for the KDP people. It changes over time.

I have a nine-part series on KDP, all in KU, all labeled as 'erotica' and all including a warning about explicit content suitable only for mature audiences in the blurbs. None of them have been dungeoned. But the covers are all PG--PG-13, and the only kinks are threesomes and... interesting orientations. No dark stuff like dubcon, which it sounds like you are discussing. That may well be what has put your titles in the corner.

I second the advice to check out Dirty Discourse, or even do regular searches here (erotica can be and is still frequently discussed; the rules simply stipulate no explicit language, I think, and definitely no links to erotic content or erotic/adult images).


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

MonHH, how much popular, modern erotica have you read? Because your concern being enough to rewrite the scene where he kisses his wife forcefully and she says stop but then gives in is so over-the-top, I'm concerned you're not really aware of what's selling in erotica these days. The "stop" was fine. That's nothing. Nobody at KDP is going to read your book, period. But if they did, they wouldn't hit that and freak out. 

You say you've spent 2 years writing this, and I'm genuinely worried that it's not going to meet your expectations because it might not be what the market wants. You can temper your financial expectations, or maybe have somebody who's doing well in erotica have a look to see if you're on the right track?


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks very much She-la and Janetlynn.

I will follow your suggestions.

I appreciate your concern, Shelly and know you're trying to put me on the right track, but I have read a lot of erotic fiction, know the genre well and have friends who have written many books in the genre. It was they that told me to the avoid the adult dungeon "at all cost", with three of them having had to go through no sales at one point until they got their book out of it. That's why I asked a specific question about the dubious consent issue, because I don't want to have to go through that. My question about that doesn't reflect my knowledge of the market or industry of the genre. I have done a lot of research in writing my book.

Otherwise, my book, IMO anyway, is very hot, explicit in parts, the male characters are dominant, the whole book is designed to arouse. I've had a friend read it to confirm. It is in no way a tame book, doesn't pull punches and is clearly erotic fiction. I have been a bit paranoid as a first-time writer about this one dubious consent issue, because I've had several people bring it up to me. I wasn't concerned before then, but they have experience of it, so that is why I want to be on the safe side.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

This might be what I am actively seeking out or avoiding, but I don't see much dubious consent in non dark romance (or maybe in over the top alpha romance as it is sometimes called). It can get you in trouble on Amazon and it will get you bad reviews. If I come across dubcon in a book that isn't specifically labeled dark romance, I am one starting that sucker because I do not want to read a scene that I consider rape that is meant to titillate me (unless I'm actively looking for it).

You can call it what you want, but I would avoid dubcon in a book that isn't dark romance. It doesn't matter what EL James can get away with. You are not EL James.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Hi Crystal,

I appreciate your post, but you are giving me your personal opinion about how you feel about dubious consent scenes, and I never asked for your opinion.

I asked writers who have experience dealing with or avoiding the "adult dungeon" about whether that one particular scene could get my book sent into the dungeon.

Please don't force your personal feelings about dubious consent into my thread. Writing "You are not EL James" is a really negative and aggressive way to make a point. This whole self-publishing thing is hard enough--I'm sure you remember--without being put down by other writers who should know better. Judging by your post, you're probably no EL James either. It's not a nice thing to say to another person, right? 

I am sure there are other people who would benefit from your help much more than me, seeing as you have such strong opinions about the whole concept. On the one hand, I have people telling me that my scene is tame compared to most erotica. On the other, I have the word "rape" being thrown about. That's why I'd much prefer to get advice from writers with personal experience of this particular issue, rather than hearing opinions as to how people feel about that type of scene.

I am a bit surprised about how many judgmental comments are made in a forum that I thought was a positive place where writers could help each other.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

Shelley K said:


> From the description, OP, it sounds like one of the mildest erotica novels anyone could likely find on Amazon. You should have no problem with the content, though getting eyes on it might be kind of hard since it doesn't seem to have any definable kink or trope.


That's what I was thinking. I haven't self published anything myself yet, I'm traditionally published only- in erotic romance, but from hearing other erotica authors talk, you seem to be worrying about all the wrong things. Unless you put something in your actual blurb about the reluctant scene I doubt they'd even know since I don't think they flag based on reading the books, they flag based on your description (blurb) or cover, and key words. That's my impression anyway. As I said I haven't done it myself yet. My knowledge is from reading other erotica authors talk about these things.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

MonHH said:


> If I publish under Romance and Contemp. women's lit, if my book were to be flagged for the dungeon, how long would that typically take? Can it happen at any time?


If it's erotica and you deliberately miscategorise it as women's lit then it won't take long to be flagged/dungeoned (assuming people are buying it).

As a reader, if I want erotica I know where to look for it. If I buy a light romance or women's lit book, then *that* is what I want to read. If I buy women's lit and get erotica, I would return and flag it for Amazon.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Crystal's pretty knowledgeable about romance and erotic romance tropes. She's telling you what she sees in those genres, since you're wondering whether to categorize your book as erotic romance (I presume) or as erotica. 

A long book that's 25% sex is a little bit of an interesting animal, I think. Erotica's usually shorter, from what I've seen. You said it's an "erotic thriller." But you said "romance," and mentioned dysfunctional elements. That makes it sound more like "dark romance" to me as well, though I'm not as expert as Crystal.

People are trying to be helpful and point out where you might trip up. When they point out that some female readers (I assume that's your audience, if you're going for romance) are very much put off by any suggestion of dubious consent (which you brought up--we really have little to go on other than what you've said; as you mentioned, we haven't read your book), other than in "dark romance" which is pretty much about that--well, they're trying to help. That's not, whatever, puritanical. It's fact. Lots of romance readers don't even want to SEE the "dark romance" category, because they find it disturbing. It is what it is. 

If you've got a really difficult relationship and issues of power and control, you may want to categorize the book as dark romance, so it can find an audience that enjoys that and avoid the audience that will hate it. Or at least look into that further, if you're planning to put it into romance and not erotica. They're different genres, as I'm sure you know.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

MonHH, You're missing everyone's point. It's frustrating but tradpubbed authors can get away with stuff that indie authors can't. You shouldn't worry what EL James or Sylvia Day can do because they can do whatever they want and their fans will respond enthusiastically.

If you are interested in what can get you in trouble with getting dungeoned or getting negative reactions from readers, then you need to be aware of how people feel about dubcon.

It's 2016 and issues of consent are a hot button topic. I'm giving you an example of how I would react as a reader. Other readers will react similarly. If you put "dobcon" in non dark romance genres, you will get readers who don't like it or find it offensive/disgusting/what have you. Those people will complain and possibly report your content as inappropriate to Amazon. That will potentially get you into trouble.

Which is why, if there's just this one dubcon scene, I would cut it. If the book is more about power play and BDSM, then I would make sure to be explicit about a safe word. If dubcon is a major theme, that is dark romance. You want to brand appropriately.

You don't want to use the words dubcon, rape, or consent in your blurb, but readers know what dark romance means.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thank you. I really do appreciate your advice.

I have been thrown for a loop with this "adult dungeon" thing and I am really afraid of being put in there after so much hard work, especially since I originally changed my non-erotic work into a more erotic novel in the hopes it would have more success.

I do know that I have to brand the book correctly. One of the first pieces of advice I got on this thread, and from other sources, was to not put the book in the Erotica category for fear of being put into Adult. I know that there is some truth to that, and I know it's perhaps a bit paranoid as well.

My book is not just straight erotica. There are various plot lines and a love story interwoven with the steamier scenes, so I believe that erotic romance and dark romance are appropriate categories. I saw famous writers who are very, very explicit whose book were in the Contemp. women's category, but I see now that there is one rule for them and another everyone else. 

I guess I was naive but I had no idea that it worked like that, especially as Amazon make so much money from Erotica. It's a learning curve for sure.

Anyway, thank you for your advice. It's very much appreciated. I think I have a better handle on what to do now.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

MonHH said:


> I have already rewritten the kissing scene to remove the word Stop, and I hope that is enough to avoid the dungeon.


There are books containing the rape and torturing of minors on Amazon, outside of the adult dungeon. I doubt a kiss would put it there.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

oakwood said:


> Don't worry, this is fine! You'll find variants of similar situations in 90% of the bestselling romances on Amazon from trade and selfpubs.


Simply not true.

Yes, there's a great deal of "romance" that sells well featuring dubious consent. It's called "dark romance," or as Crystal says, "super-alpha males" or whatever.

But it's 2016. Consent is a thing. In mainstream romance, any hint of dubious consent--a man who doesn't listen to what a woman wants and forces her physically, including, yes a kiss--will cause many readers to metaphorically throw their Kindles against the wall and not read an author again.

BDSM is not dubious consent or nonconsent. BDSM is all about consent and safety. I do not write BDSM other than the very lightest playing with it, but a woman can feel safe in surrendering control because she knows she can take it back at any moment. BDSM is about explicit consent and limits and respect, or it's not BDSM, it's abuse.

Are there books that blur that? You bet there are. But not 90% of bestselling romance.

Mainstream romance authors care about this stuff, because women care.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks so much for this Oakwood - great list! Really useful. I will keep all of this in mind.

I feel like I have a better idea what to do in general.

Thanks again for any advice given.


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## Maggie Brooke (Jan 30, 2016)

This thread has gotten be totally confused about the difference between erotica and romance. If arousal is the defining difference, then most of the books I've read recently in the romance genre on KU should be labeled erotica.

I just wrote my first two sex scenes this week in my novel. They didn't show up until around page 100, but due to the build-up (some start and stop with conversation mixed in), their first sexual encounter lasts about 20 pages in the book. Given that, can it still be considered romance? My language is pretty tame. I was surprised and pleased by how I could create the scene without having to use specific graphic slang. 

With my two main characters, I see sex as more a culmination or an expression of their passion for each other, which is cultivated through time spent together and intellectual banter. Does that make a difference? I certainly don't want to miscategorize my novel. I don't have a problem with erotica; I just didn't think that that was what I was writing. When I first started writing, I wasn't even sure that I was writing romance - more women's fiction and possibly even contemporary fiction. But now that I am more than halfway through, the relationship and the growth of it is the cornerstone of the story, which obviously means it's a romance.

What about the category on Amazon - Women's fiction - literary? I was looking at that one the other day and puzzling over what that means practically in terms of the prose and the story. 

I agree with others about the consent issue. If there's any pushing on the part of either character or even semi-disregarded "no's" bandied about, then I definitely want a disclaimer in the book letting me know it's that kind of story. 

And OP, any book with that cover likely falls under erotica. As a browser, I would certainly place it their in my head regardless of what Amazon labeled it. Any way to creatively communicate the passion of the characters with a less erotic photo?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Maggie Brooke said:


> This thread has gotten be totally confused about the difference between erotica and romance. If arousal is the defining difference, then most of the books I've read recently in the romance genre on KU should be labeled erotica.
> 
> I just wrote my first two sex scenes this week in my novel. They didn't show up until around page 100, but due to the build-up (some start and stop with conversation mixed in), their first sexual encounter lasts about 20 pages in the book. Given that, can it still be considered romance? My language is pretty tame. I was surprised and pleased by how I could create the scene without having to use specific graphic slang.
> 
> ...


What you're describing is a steamy romance. The amount of sex, the arousal quotient of the sex--those aren't the difference between romance and erotica. The difference is the point of the book: the characters' journey to HEA, or people having sex?

I think of erotic romance as: the sex is a driving factor in the plot. In other words, a lot of the book's "about" what kind of sex they have. Shifter stuff, BDSM stuff, etc. There'll be a sex scene every couple/few chapters.

Steamy romance is: it's a romance, and the plot isn't driven by the sex. But the sex scenes are, well, steamy.

Erotica is: it's not really about a relationship. The purpose of the book is to get people off. This is why it's usually short, because, well--what can you read in a session, ya know?

The OP's cover could certainly be erotic romance.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

Regarding your stock image question in your first post, it is not only nudity that will get the book dungeoned, but also couples in sexual positions. That image looks like a sexual act. It may pass initially but somewhere along the line they will put it in the dungeon or block your book.


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## MonHH (Mar 10, 2016)

Thanks so much for all the advice.

Maggie, your post was really useful. I had originally thought of my book as Erotica because it has several long sex scenes designed to arouse in it, but similarly to you, it has a whole storyline, full-formed characters etc, and the first real sex scene shows up about a quarter of the way into the book. I think that my book would be much better suited to the erotic romance or dark romance categories (and perhaps other romance categories--I will have a look).

About the cover, I've decided not to use that image of the couple in bed, even if you don't see any skin pretty much, and to go with a non-sexual cover that is more evocative of the symbolism I've tried to incorporated in places in the book. I think that will reduce the risk of my book having problems.

Thanks for the advice, Rosalind. I know where you are coming from. The point of my book is not just about sex. It's about the breakdown of a dysfunctional relationship and rebirth after that breakdown. The sex spices it up, but it could function as a novel without it. For that reason, I don't think that it has to be classed as Erotica. I'm clearer about the distinction than a week ago.

Thanks for the extra info, Oakwood. I agree that this is fiction and so has an element of fantasy in it. I also agree that in the real world of relationships, whether between men and women, men and men, women and women, whatever, conduct is not always impeccable 100% of the time, especially during a break-up. I am trying to write about the real stuff that happens in relationships, not the sanitized version. The scene reflects that, but is not shown as this great, hot thing. It is clearly shown as dysfunctional and messy.

Thank you all for the very useful advice. I have a much clearer idea of where I'm headed.


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## Maggie Brooke (Jan 30, 2016)

Rosalind, thanks so much for your helpful description of the sub-types of romance and the distinction between erotica and romance. I always appreciate it when more established and accomplished writers are willing to help new writers like me to wade through it all. I've been reading and writing my whole life, but this is my first foray into self-publishing and writing for (hopefully) profit.


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## TAGrey (Feb 24, 2016)

Nic said:


> There are books containing the rape and torturing of minors on Amazon, outside of the adult dungeon. I doubt a kiss would put it there.


This, what Nic and others have said. I seriously doubt you have to worry. I have 2 books in the dungeon. The one I have NO reason why it's in there, seriously. It's a tame but sexy shifter romance with a tame but sexy cover (it's called Wicked Surrender) and yet an erotica book I wrote, Midnight Sex Shop, which has mmf and ffm menage, exhibitionism, voyeurism, etc, is _not_ in the dungeon. Like, what?

The description of the dubious kiss does not sound like a big deal to me whatsoever. What I would recommend is that if you're *this* *worried* about it, either remove it, change it, or make the heroine agree or say yes to the kiss to make sure consent is there.

From the sound of your book I'd pub in something like fiction > romance > dark romance and fiction > romance > contemporary.

You can also had a playful {Warning: in the product description which describes a high/steamy heat alert to forewarn readers in case you're nervous}.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Wicked Surrender


Possibly it's the second word in the title, which could indicate dub con/non con, that's got you dungeoned. You can always ask if it's the title, or whatever you suspect, and sometimes you might even get a specific answer.


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## TAGrey (Feb 24, 2016)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Possibly it's the second word in the title, which could indicate dub con/non con, that's got you dungeoned. You can always ask if it's the title, or whatever you suspect, and sometimes you might even get a specific answer.


Wow! Literally never thought of that. I might think about changing that. The first book in that same series has been flagged and my contact at Amazon did tell me that it was because it had the word "breeding" in it--although there is in impregnation or anything weird. It's just a shifter erotic novel. But he said I'd have to change the title to get it removed. I never have because I love that darn title.


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## PhilipColgate (Feb 11, 2016)

I know a thing or two about erotica because "a friend of mine" wrote tons of it.  Amazon kicked off 2016 by specifically targeting erotica books that were mis-categorized in all sorts of non-erotica categories.  In the process of this review, they took a closer look at the cover, title, blurbs, and content of said books and dungeoned many of them.  My "friend" had half of his catalog, including most of his bestsellers, placed in the dungeon during this sweep.  Mis-categorizing erotica used to be a great trick to gain visibility but Amazon cracked down.  In short, mis-categorizing is a faster trip to the dungeon.  Dubious consent is a first class seat if that, indeed, is what you're talking about (though I'm not sure).

I'm looking forward to Amazon performing another sweep to take care of all the "mainstream" romance authors who currently mis-categorize in ridiculous genres like "sea adventures" and "sports."


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Seems like there would be money to be made in Amazon (or someone else with a lot of clout) to just spin off a whole other outfit to handle the porn. Then it could be properly categorized, everyone could find their specific kink more easily, erotica authors wouldn't have to play games with Amazon, and those of us trying to gain non-erotica visibility in fields like PNR might have an easier time. Could be a win all around. Done right, someone could even charge more than KU.

Of course, no way am I the first person to think of this.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

KeraEmory said:


> Seems like there would be money to be made in Amazon (or someone else with a lot of clout) to just spin off a whole other outfit to handle the porn. Then it could be properly categorized, everyone could find their specific kink more easily, erotica authors wouldn't have to play games with Amazon, and those of us trying to gain non-erotica visibility in fields like PNR might have an easier time. Could be a win all around. Done right, someone could even charge more than KU.
> 
> Of course, no way am I the first person to think of this.


Selena Kitt has done this with Excitica.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

dianapersaud said:


> Selena Kitt has done this with Excitica.


First time I've heard of it, which doesn't mean anything (I haven't written erotica since my fanfic days and I don't read it, not for any prudish reason, just don't. I suppose I get my jollies from prime time cable. Heh.)

Anyway, is it doing well for anyone?


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> Erotica is: it's not really about a relationship. The purpose of the book is to get people off. This is why it's usually short, because, well--what can you read in a session, ya know?
> 
> The OP's cover could certainly be erotic romance.


Not _all _erotica is like that by any stretch. There is plenty of "long" full length novel women's erotica that includes some story of personal growth for the woman through her exploration of her sexuality. Just getting people off with not much of a story is often called porn in comparison. There can be erotica without a definite romance that still has plenty of story.


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

PhilipColgate said:


> I know a thing or two about erotica because "a friend of mine" wrote tons of it. Amazon kicked off 2016 by specifically targeting erotica books that were mis-categorized in all sorts of non-erotica categories. In the process of this review, they took a closer look at the cover, title, blurbs, and content of said books and dungeoned many of them. My "friend" had half of his catalog, including most of his bestsellers, placed in the dungeon during this sweep. Mis-categorizing erotica used to be a great trick to gain visibility but Amazon cracked down. In short, mis-categorizing is a faster trip to the dungeon. Dubious consent is a first class seat if that, indeed, is what you're talking about (though I'm not sure).
> 
> I'm looking forward to Amazon performing another sweep to take care of all the "mainstream" romance authors who currently mis-categorize in ridiculous genres like "sea adventures" and "sports."


What I find ironic is Amazon has no problem selling "Barely Legal" porn magazines from big companies. I mean the actual title of these magazines was "barely legal" I found these when out of curiosity I use search terms of things that were said to immediately mean being dudgeoned, or even having the books removed. I also found books that had been banned meaning the author was no longer allowed to sell them, but for some reason Amazon WAS allowing these same books to be sold as second hand print copies by second hand sellers so the books with their blurbs and everything were still on there, the author just couldn't sell them herself and profit from them (what?)


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## StellaPurple (Jan 11, 2017)

Ebook stores claim that they refuse to publish any extreme themes like non-con/dub-con in erotica, yet I can still discover them all over the net.

It's this confusing me to this date.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2017)

Lisa5 said:


> What I find ironic is Amazon has no problem selling "Barely Legal" porn magazines from big companies. I mean the actual title of these magazines was "barely legal" I found these when out of curiosity I use search terms of things that were said to immediately mean being dudgeoned, or even having the books removed. I also found books that had been banned meaning the author was no longer allowed to sell them, but for some reason Amazon WAS allowing these same books to be sold as second hand print copies by second hand sellers so the books with their blurbs and everything were still on there, the author just couldn't sell them herself and profit from them (what?)


The confusion in this thread is a consequence of the confusion in our society--a society that wallows in hypocrisy.

The two strongest biological drives are hunger and sex. The former usually leads to finding food and the latter usually leads to procreation. The former keeps us alive as individuals and the latter keeps the species alive.

You can write cookbooks of all kinds, or stories about gourmands and gluttony, and no one will put you in a "dungeon". But if you write stories about sex, the brain-damaged religious zealots come out of the woodwork to put you in a dungeon.

It is not to Amazon's credit that they conform to and foster the hypocrisy of our society. Amazon is not a progressive force for social change or reason trumping myth. Amazon, unfortunately, is merely another big company interested primarily in making money.

My advice about writing erotica in KDP is that if most of the content is erotic, tell that up front by the proper categories. Forget about explicit covers. You don't need an explicit cover, all you need is an interesting cover with a visible title and author. If there is any kind of erotic content, always put a warning in the product description and in the front matter. No surprises for the reader. Those are the keys to avoiding trouble: No explicit covers and no surprises about erotic content for the reader. You don't need an explicit cover to sell a book and you don't need to fool readers (or fool Amazon) about what is in the book.


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

StellaPurple said:


> Ebook stores claim that they refuse to publish any extreme themes like non-con/dub-con in erotica, yet I can still discover them all over the net.
> 
> It's this confusing me to this date.


 Each ebook store and fan fic site has it's own rules, so you have to judge each store and site by itself. There is no one erotica authors guideline to rule them all. And rules change, all the time. Like a long time ago, back in the glory days of erotica writing and KU1, Kboards used to allow erotica books in our signatures. Then Google got a ton of complaints from the peeps buying ad space, so Google changed their adsense rules. Although, I'm sure if you looked closely enough you'll find exceptions. Places where advertisers haven't noticed. The internet is a huge place, and no rule is ever going to be executed equally.

On amazon, lots of stuff gets through their filters all the time. But then one day the right person complains and they go on a hunt to take it all down. Everyone panics and scurries away. But new peeps are submitting stuff every day, and a little bit will always get through. Once the holidays are over, amazon and other stores relax their sensors and a bunch more gets through until the next complaint, and the purge happens all over again.

B&N used to allow absolutely everything cos no one over their cared about the online store. Then new management came along and they decided they wanted to be "family friendly", so they started purging stuff, too. But they've got prolly millions of books. No store purges by hand and stuff gets missed all the time. It happens.

I think there was a time Kobo freaked out and decided to quit accepting books from indie authors cos of complaints somewhere. Then they got even more complaints or they fixed their system, or whatever, and started accepting us again. I don't actually know much about them since I just use D2D to distribute, but I'm sure they have rules, and I'm sure their system misses non-compliant books all the time, too.

Paypal has gone suddenly crazy, in the past, as well. Adults, especially American adults can become absolute nutters when it comes to sexual content. A site can be anything goes one day, then bim, bam, thank you, Ma'am, decide to delete the publishing accounts of anyone who has ever published erotica through them, even if they haven't published an incesty or non-con title in years.

You just never know. The stuff sells and sites are greedy, they want their piece of the pie. But they also want to hold on to their squeaky clean public images. Hence the vague rules and the sudden purges. And our tech simply isn't 100% perfect yet, so stuff will always get through sometimes.

Don't look for even enforcement, logic, or sensibility when it comes to erotics or porn. There are double standards everywhere, the rules will never be completely open and clear, and there is no safety net. You can be making millions one day, and be cut off at the knees the next. Decide how risk averse you are. And if you (the proverbial, universal you) can't stand the danger of erotica publishing, write romance instead.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

<snip>

Oh gosh, this was a NECRO thread. ahhhh


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

Laran Mithras said:


> <snip>
> 
> Oh gosh, this was a NECRO thread. ahhhh


 *Teehee*

I was apparently following this zombie, so got an email alert. I thought about ignoring it, but decided to reply to the newbie ressurectionist.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Krista.Cairn said:


> If you sell people erotica without them knowing it's in there, you are going to generate an enormous amount of hate. Just saying.


This^^

We are finally seeing erotica get purged from the wrong categories. Put it where it belongs.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

MonHH said:


> I understand the cover is important and I have redesigned the jacket so that there is nothing too suggestive on it, but would like advice as to whether the attached photo would risk putting me into the adult category. http://www.istockphoto.com/photo/young-lovers-kiss-gm514914495-47766660 (I tried to attach it as a file, but can't so am inserting a link).
> 
> Thanks!


I don't think anyone answered about the cover. From what I hear from erotica authors they are avoiding any kind of horizontal position on covers where the one person is on top of the other, as it looks like a sexual position, and that is going to get you in the dungeon. No images that look like a sexual act, no groping, no piece of breast sticking out, no bare back,no standing embracing positions that look too wild either or with the woman gasping with an open mouth. Those are the rules.

If you are purchasing an image from a stock site like iStock then it is better to cut faces off if you are going to classify the book as erotica, as models can get upset and sue the author. Some authors use images from porn stock sites for erotica, or cut faces off, or use special romance stock image sites where the models have agreed to be on erotica covers and where they sell images for the erotica category.

Presently you will find mostly single male torso covers in the erotica category, a few with single girls in lingerie but they are properly covered, and a few couples but they are not in a very wild position. Of course there are books that slip through that do not comply to the rules, but usually after some time they end up in the dungeon.


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