# The Writers' Cafe



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Ever think about how hidden and out of the way this joint is, and yet it has become the best single spot for authors to come for publishing advice? It's pretty crazy. A subforum off a subforum.

There's been talk of breaking this out of a single subforum so we can keep threads organized by subject matter. And I get Harvey not wanting to mess with what's working. But I'd love to know what percentage of the site's traffic or revenue comes from this little corner of it. Because I think it could really grow and breathe if allowed to.

I'd love to be told I'm an idiot for thinking this, but here's something that occurred to me today: The internet needs the Writers' Cafe. But we need more tables in here. We need a room for people who want to go the traditional route to feel safe and be able to congregate and not be judged. Can you imagine if the Writers' Cafe was its own website? (really just its own forum). It could be hosted on the same forum as now, owned and run by the same people (sorry if this is like an open letter to Harvey, but it's all hypothetical musings and me being silly).

At some point, this place is going to burst at the seams. And the potential is here to service a lot more aspiring writers. To have an entire forum dedicated to agents. One to craft. One to promotions. One to cover art. To announce new works.

It would have to be the same people behind the scenes, though. It would have to be Harvey's Writers' Cafe, with Ann and Betsy making it awesome (and probably others). I'd be terrified of contemplating this. I'd be upset at anyone for bringing it up. But I think the existing users would move there and a lot of new users would move in. The sites could be linked, so it's still a part of KBoards.

I dunno. Or I could suck it up and venture off to page 2 or even . . . page 3 now and then. I just feel like if we knocked down that wall and put in a second toilet, we could squeeze more people in here.

Hey Harvey, delete this if it just gave you a headache.


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

I like things the way they are, but then I'm not a huge fan of change. And also, different subforums and things kind of remind me of another writing forum I'm not terribly fond of, so...

ETA: I also kind of like how out of the way this forum is. It's like, if you've found your way here, it's probably because you already take your work seriously and are motivated enough to find places that'll help you push it to the next level.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

As long as Harvey, Ann, and Betsy are around to keep it kind, I'll go wherever the Cafe goes. Lovely place, this.



(*Edited after realizing I'd misspelled Harvey's name. Sorry, Harvey!)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Ya mean like class the joint up? New tables and counters and a new menu? New sign? Quiche and white wine? Give those writers better stools to sit on. Next you'll want wifi or latte's or something. This ain't no Starbucks. I don't know Hugh, gettin' kinda fancy...not that I mind at all. 

edit: I do like having all the other Kindle folks in the same building too. The Bazaar and The Corner and Not Quite Kindle...it's like pollination.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

"Messing with a good thing" can be very dangerous.  So is messing with an established URL/domain name.

I belong to writer's groups with tens of thousands of members. Where do I hang out? Here.

It comes down to the members, the people who post here (which seem to be the same fifty people but who knows how many lurkers we have?).  I don't think this place is hard to find and I've passed the link on to quite a number of people that haven't heard about it. Do we need to reinvent the wheel?

ETA:  Hmmm, if I keep dissing Hugh's ideas he's not EVER going to write a blurb for the back of my cover! Dang!


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Maybe we just need our own sub-forum, so we can have sub-forums of the sub-forum?


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

EllenWaite said:


> I like things the way they are, but then I'm not a huge fan of change. And also, *different subforums and things kind of remind me of another writing forum I'm not terribly fond of, so*...


ITA, especially with the section in bold. I tried other forums and I found that the content was geared towards query letters, sample chapter critiques, query contests, and other aspects associated with trade publishing. In those communities, there seemed to be a mentality that writers seeking to self-publish were those who couldn't secure an agent and/or publishing deal.


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## James Bruno (Mar 15, 2011)

I wholeheartedly back your suggestion. Also, this site is badly in need of modernization and streamlining. It needs technical revamping from top to bottom.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

I like the idea but I'm hesitant about different sub-forums for reasons mentioned. Maybe if there was just an easier way to search the Writer's Forum or even tag posts? Dozens of threads surrounding the same issue are started every week and many times people aren't aware that the same thing was just discussed yesterday at 2am because it disappeared onto page 5 and if you search for the topic you get stuff from 2011 in multiple sub-forums of this great board thingy.


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## rex kusler (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not so sure there would be enough users. There has been a big turnover over the years. Authors hit it big and leave, others give up. I can't believe you're still here.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

James Bruno said:


> I wholeheartedly back your suggestion. Also, this site is badly in need of modernization and streamlining. It needs technical revamping from top to bottom.


Could be. What is lacking, old, or inefficient?


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

EllenWaite said:


> I like things the way they are, but then I'm not a huge fan of change. And also, different subforums and things kind of remind me of another writing forum I'm not terribly fond of, so...
> 
> ETA: I also kind of like how out of the way this forum is. It's like, if you've found your way here, it's probably because you already take your work seriously and are motivated enough to find places that'll help you push it to the next level.





Quiss said:


> "Messing with a good thing" can be very dangerous. So is messing with an established URL/domain name.
> 
> I belong to writer's groups with tens of thousands of members. Where do I hang out? Here.
> 
> ...


This.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I just feel like if we knocked down that wall and put in a second toilet, we could squeeze more people in here.


I'd be interested in a second toilet.

I'd even help clean up, if called upon.


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm cool with either way. I like this place as is, but I also wouldn't mind if we were able to have a few sub-forums to keep things more organized.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> "Messing with a good thing" can be very dangerous. So is messing with an established URL/domain name.


Very important point.

Also, going to sub-forums is just as difficult as going to pages 2, 3, or 4.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Hugh Howey said:


> Ever think about how hidden and out of the way this joint is, and yet it has become the best single spot for authors to come for publishing advice? It's pretty crazy. A subforum off a subforum.
> 
> There's been talk of breaking this out of a single subforum so we can keep threads organized by subject matter. And I get Harvey not wanting to mess with what's working. But I'd love to know what percentage of the site's traffic or revenue comes from this little corner of it. Because I think it could really grow and breathe if allowed to.
> 
> ...


If this became it's own website we'd lose our connection to the readers, because most readers won't be drawn to a website called The Writer's Cafe. Plus it'll hurt Kindleboards because I barely have time to hang out here most days, so there's no way for me to spend significant time here and a separate writer's site.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

I am open to the Writer's Cafe, and the forum overall, evolving to better meet the needs of our community. So I welcome this discussion and the ideas put forth!

In mid-March, we will be converting to an upgraded forum software. The change is quite significant behind-the-scenes, although the actual changes from a user point of view will be mostly cosmetic. One change, badly needed, is we'll be implementing a robust search engine that will make searching the forum, or searching a particular sub-board, a much improved experience. Right now our two search options (Google site search and a rudimentary forum search) are pretty crude.

Structural changes, like defining boards and sub-boards, are easy to make administratively. I do have an aversion to making sub-boards, as I find it can cause discussions to be orphaned. But, it may be time to look at that anew, especially for our busy Writer's Cafe.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Greg Banks said:


> If this became it's own website we'd lose our connection to the readers, because most readers won't be drawn to a website called The Writer's Cafe. Plus it'll hurt Kindleboards because I barely have time to hang out here most days, so there's no way for me to spend significant time here and a separate writer's site.


This is a good point. Even though there's only a handful of readers ("non-author readers," that is) that are active posters in the Writer's Cafe, last year we averaged slightly over 500 e-books being purchased on this site by readers every day. So that's a lot of reader interest, and purchasing activity.


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## rex kusler (Feb 12, 2010)

Greg Banks said:


> If this became it's own website we'd lose our connection to the readers, because most readers won't be drawn to a website called The Writer's Cafe. Plus it'll hurt Kindleboards because I barely have time to hang out here most days, so there's no way for me to spend significant time here and a separate writer's site.


Aspiring writers (and established writers) read more books than anybody. At least they should.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Perhaps I'm just a gruff old traditionalist but I like being able to see good news threads, craft threads, and marketing threads all on one page.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

After many years of enduring change, I wrote Chris' Law of Conservation. Don't change. 

Seriously believe its great as is, like Quiss and other said.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

If it's not broken...


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Darren Wearmouth said:


> If it's not broken...


Don't fix it...

Exactly what I'm saying.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I like it this way, too. I wouldn't bother to click on a bunch of sub-forums. I like seeing the variety of posts here.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

It might be nice just to have a small bit of division, like... I don't know. "Sales and Strategies," "Milestones and Good News," "Questions," and "General Discussion."

When I first got here, I did find all the madcap threads moving at the speed of light somewhat overwhelming. But I've adjusted, and I do actually like how lively and quick moving this place is.

And... I sometimes even go back as far as page 3.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Writing, touring, doing interviews, dreaming up anthologies, revamping the Cafe.....

One question, Hugh:  when do you find time to sleep?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Darren Wearmouth said:


> If it's not broken...


Im reminded of the Drudge Report and Craigs List.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I've been spending a little time across the hall lately at another site. Not sure why. I even engaged in a moderately nasty debate about the OP.  
Anyway, I get lost over there. I think that's too much division. Each sub-forum has it's own posting rules, etc... etc...

On the other hand, if you don't check WC posts often, cool stuff can scroll down the screen in a mater in minutes. Sometimes I'm too lazy to page back.

I'll be here as long and the mods and my friends are here or until asked to leave.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm new here so feel free to throw my opinion in the deep fryer...

But I would really hate to see this place change. It works, and that's a difficult feat in and of itself, for an online forum anyway. 

I also like that it's more difficult to find than other writer forums. The majority (well, everyone that I've rubbed elbows with) of people here are serious about self publishing.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I've been spending a little time across the hall lately at another site. Not sure why. I even engaged in a moderately nasty debate about the OP.
> Anyway, I get lost over there. I think that's too much division. Each sub-forum has it's own posting rules, etc... etc...


I was beating my head against the wall over there, earlier. I actually reported a few of the moderators posts


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Darren Wearmouth said:


> If it's not broken...


I tend to agree. Maybe the safest way to grow the WC without upsetting the delicate (and rare) balance that is a functional forum would be to bring WCers together outside the strict confines of the site for more shared endeavors. Hugh, your ideas of a conference and a flash anthology are right up this alley. Informal regional meet-ups for authors would be fun. Collaboration on multi-author box sets and promotions -- these things are already happening and hopefully will grow. Ages ago, someone floated the idea of a professional association for indie writers. That'd be a huge time-suck, but it'd certainly be valuable, and the WC could be its point of genesis. Reaching out beyond the site in these kinds of ways will not only expand the WC's profile and influence but will also keep it vibrant.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I've been spending a little time across the hall lately at another site. Not sure why. I even engaged in a moderately nasty debate about the OP.
> Anyway, I get lost over there. I think that's too much division. Each sub-forum has it's own posting rules, etc... etc...
> 
> On the other hand, if you don't check WC posts often, cool stuff can scroll down the screen in a mater in minutes. Sometimes I'm too lazy to page back.
> ...


Reading that thread--over there--really depresses me. My takeaway? The huge range of perceptions on success and experience. I'm truly depressed now.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

I actually think a little bit of organization regarding sub-forums would be an improvement.  I'm not talking about endless levels of categorization, but a few broad areas like industry news, marketing and sales, writing skills, milestone and supportive threads, technical/software issues, etc.

That way people could target what really interests them.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)




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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

I'd be a fan of moving it so it is no longer a subforum of a subforum, (so taking us out of the back alley and from behind the potted plants), but I'd be a little concerned about subdividing the joint.  That usually means that those small break out rooms languish and you lose the general exchange of ideas that I personally think works so well here.

For example, someone has a question about X.  The categories are A, B, C.  Which one do they put it in?  They finally pick A, and while it may or may not get addressed in A, people who tend to lean towards B and C never see it and so (thinking it doesn't apply to them), never give any input (like when a thread gets moved from the current Writer's Cafe to, well, anywhere and that's the end of that).

So, while we're currently all milling around in one big ball room instead of hanging out in separate little alcoves, I for one, like that in this case.

Just my thoughts.


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Well, I'm not sure what would work best, but I do know two things: one is that the information in the Writers' Cafe is so insightful that I often refer readers to it in my weekly blogs. Secondely, the Writer's Cafe is so large that I can barely get through the first couple of pages of threads before I run out of time. I'm sure there's tons of good information and comments I'd like to share, but to get through it all is really daunting.

There are threads that are more relevant to me than others. I'm both traditionally and self-published. I'm still learning how to promote myself effectively and am always seeking more tips. And then there's the incredible stories of inspiration and determination that I enjoy reading, not to mention the links people post to great blogs or articles they find.

I don't...but if you branch out or move, I'll follow.

Thanks!
Debra


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

K.B. Nelson said:


> I was beating my head against the wall over there, earlier. I actually reported a few of the moderators posts


;-; Why did you all have to mention it? Curiosity got the better of me and I sought it out. And then I wanted to throw up.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

A big plus would be if posters would title more explicitly. Titles such as "a question" or "need help" for "just a suggestion" aren't too helpful. Clearer titles would enable one to skim faster and zero in on preferred threads to read.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I seem to remember belonging to a board where each thread could have a unique tag. All posts were in the same forum. There was a little bubble beside the title (like the "new" bubble here) that categorized what that thread title was about.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Many forum software packages have the ability for you to either choose to view 'new posts', which would look much like the WC here, or go into each subforum and view the posts there. That would be the best of both worlds, but I don't think it would work within a subforum.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

The thing is, all the best marketing tips get thrown in as afterthoughts in non-marketing threads, so...


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

If we move, can someone let me know? I rarely make it past page 1.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I've been spending a little time across the hall lately at another site. Not sure why. I even engaged in a moderately nasty debate about the OP.
> Anyway, I get lost over there. I think that's too much division. Each sub-forum has it's own posting rules, etc... etc...
> 
> On the other hand, if you don't check WC posts often, cool stuff can scroll down the screen in a mater in minutes. Sometimes I'm too lazy to page back.
> ...


Nobody ask Joe to leave.....  you see what I did there? eh? did you? Thank you! I'll be here all week, maybe longer if I can't get my car to start!

Seriously I like things the way they are, but since I have no control over anything but myself I guess if a hurricane of change comes, I will just lash myself to one of the supports and hope for the best.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I'm saying you pretty much have to read every popular thread to not miss the good stuff. And the popular threads are easy to spot. 

YAY for the new search functions! I say we give those a whirl all on their own and then revisit this topic in three months, as we normally do.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple. For myself, I only have time for one forum. The more sub-forums you have, the more confused your visitors will be and lots of repetitive threads in the wrong place with people repeating the same information.

It's the Writer's Cafe, not Writer's Emporium. MHO, of course.


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## George Applegate (Jan 23, 2013)

Threads often wander and I think that's healthy. So rather than have subforums (subfora?) perhaps threads could be tagged by the OP or mods with symbols (often more than one per thread) to indicate craft, formatting, requests for critique, author news, etc. That way one could see at a glance which threads might be of interest.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Hugh, you're suggesting we break our family apart?

I think it's time we had a little "chat."


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## Mr. RAD (Jan 4, 2011)

James Bruno said:


> I wholeheartedly back your suggestion. Also, this site is badly in need of modernization and streamlining. It needs technical revamping from top to bottom.





Harvey said:


> I am open to the Writer's Cafe, and the forum overall, evolving to better meet the needs of our community. So I welcome this discussion and the ideas put forth!
> 
> In mid-March, we will be converting to an upgraded forum software. The change is quite significant behind-the-scenes, although the actual changes from a user point of view will be mostly cosmetic. One change, badly needed, is we'll be implementing a robust search engine that will make searching the forum, or searching a particular sub-board, a much improved experience. Right now our two search options (Google site search and a rudimentary forum search) are pretty crude.
> 
> Structural changes, like defining boards and sub-boards, are easy to make administratively. I do have an aversion to making sub-boards, as I find it can cause discussions to be orphaned. But, it may be time to look at that anew, especially for our busy Writer's Cafe.


I'd like to see some cosmetic changes. This place looks a little outdated if you ask me. It needs to appear more modern. A nicely designed logo instead of the bland text that currently exists would be nice. A stylish menu system (see Mashable.com and Examiner.com for examples) would be hip too. Signatures in which book covers automatically resize when users mouse over them would be a nice addition as well.

As for structural changes, well, I'd like to see threads that are Reddit-styled. You know, instead of pages of responses, all replies to a single thread show up on one page with nested comments and all. Also, repeating the thread title in every post seem kind of redundant. Only the first post in a new thread should contain the title whereas all others that follow shouldn't. (For a nice example of how it should work, just hit "Reply" to any post in this thread and see all the replies below; none of them have the thread title.)

Being able to tag threads and/or posts within threads would be extremely helpful in terms of locating information. I don't know what effect that would have on bookmarking if any.

These are just my opinions. I'm sure others here have better ideas. But even if this place stays the same, I'll still be around.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

EllenWaite said:


> ;-; Why did you all have to mention it? Curiosity got the better of me and I sought it out. And then I wanted to throw up.


It's a good thing I made that snarky blog post full of unfortunate language. It gives the people who hate me a valid reason to hate me. I love how any thread or comment about me over there results in a mod or the site admin posting a link (and then a flood of emails from readers who are disgusted with their actions and reaching out to me in support). Their behavior really fits in with their "be nice to authors" policy. 

Whatever some people think of me, I've never in my life been as rude to another human being as a dozen or so people over there have been to me. Not once. Actions are louder than words. I've been bullied my entire life. Not going to get down about it at this stage.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

JeanneM said:


> Hugh, you're suggesting we break our family apart?
> 
> I think it's time we had a little "chat."


Haha! I feel like I should retract this thread. As you were.

Or maybe, as someone joked above, I'm not supposed to be here anymore.


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

This is what I want: every day, around 10 pm, someone post "Today's WC highlights", which will summarize all the insightful and noteworthy threads, let me know if there was a locked thread that day, give a play by play of any arguments (or at least link to them) and maybe a post-game analysis, a few of the best memes that people post, etc etc. Sometimes I just don't have time to read every single thread. I'm usually 98% there, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

I vote that Hugh does it. Something to fill his time, ya know?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Endi Webb said:


> This is what I want: every day, around 10 pm, someone post "Today's WC highlights", which will summarize all the insightful and noteworthy threads, let me know if there was a locked thread that day, give a play by play of any arguments (or at least link to them) and maybe a post-game analysis, a few of the best memes that people post, etc etc. Sometimes I just don't have time to read every single thread. I'm usually 98% there, but I'm sure I'm missing something.
> 
> I vote that Hugh does it. Something to fill his time, ya know?


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## rex kusler (Feb 12, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> It's a good thing I made that snarky blog post full of unfortunate language. It gives the people who hate me a valid reason to hate me. I love how any thread or comment about me over there results in a mod or the site admin posting a link (and then a flood of emails from readers who are disgusted with their actions and reaching out to me in support). Their behavior really fits in with their "be nice to authors" policy.
> 
> Whatever some people think of me, I've never in my life been as rude to another human being as a dozen or so people over there have been to me. Not once. Actions are louder than words. I've been bullied my entire life. Not going to get down about it at this stage.


I'm a relative newbie. What site is that "over there"?


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> Hugh, you're suggesting we break our family apart?
> 
> I think it's time we had a little "chat."





Hugh Howey said:


> Haha! I feel like I should retract this thread. As you were.
> 
> Or maybe, as someone joked above, I'm not supposed to be here anymore.


I can't take my eyes off that cat.

Hugh, if you leave, we'll sic EL James on you. 

Harvey - you are a god if you can update the search engine. That alone would take this place a giant leap ahead in functionality. And I'm all about efficiency... which is why I'm here, sipping tea, shooting the breeze...


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Sapphire said:


> A big plus would be if posters would title more explicitly. Titles such as "a question" or "need help" for "just a suggestion" aren't too helpful. Clearer titles would enable one to skim faster and zero in on preferred threads to read.


I agree with this so much. I know I've started some stupid threads, but I should be tasered if/when I do, as should everyone.


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I've been a moderator of some very large population boards, and a few things I've noticed is that whenever people try to branch off a board and then expand it further (kind of what HH was suggesting), bad things tend to happen, such as you lose a large segment of the population that doesn't carry through to the new address, and when you expand further to additional subcategories, you end up with people abandoning certain parts of the boards to where it starts to become sparse, and quite often completely abandoned.

I really like the Writer's Cafe and I'd be one of the few who would follow it wherever, and however. But I've seen it happen the wrong way too many times, but in a few very rare cases I've seen it do well (like the IGN boards branching off into becoming Day One Patch boards, a gaming site for discussion, but that was necessary because the IGN boards became awful and were losing members daily).


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> The thing is, all the best marketing tips get thrown in as afterthoughts in non-marketing threads, so...


Exactly! Or a great writing idea is in the middle of a conversation about Amazon algorithms or jelly beans. That's the "free flowing" thing that I like here. Kinda like a big brainstorming session where lots of bits and pieces may be mixed together and people can take the bits and pieces that apply to them and run with them. If you try to sub-divide that, I think there will be a loss.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

rex kusler said:


> I'm a relative newbie. What site is that "over there"?


Well, strictly speaking, we're not supposed to talk about what goes on on other forums, but if you Google "writers' forum for self-important assholes," you'll find it.

No, seriously. First page of results.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

I wouldn't want to change sites either. I like the Cafe's location. But there are some issues with the single forum moving so fast - the main one being that I constantly lose my place when I come back.

If I could suggest changes it would be along the lines of topics being clearer - but hey no one's goingto police that and there are so many posters that not everyone's going to do that. So instead could I suggest what I see in a lot of other fora. Namely that you move your mouse over the thread title and get the first few lines of the actual thread. That would help me remember what I've already looked at.

Second, could the button something about new replies to your posts be tweaked a little or another button be added. Simply your last five posts, regardless of whether some's added to them. Some threads I like to reread just to make sure I got everything at least half right.

Cheers, Greg.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Hugh, don't you dare try to leave. We have gps units and know how to use them!  LOL  Seriously you are a big part of the family.  Picture James Gandolfini here..."And no one leaves the family!"


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## Paul Draker (Sep 11, 2013)

I finally found my way in here, and now you guys are talking about going somewhere else?

Guess I shoulda' brought some cold beer.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Paul Draker said:


> I finally found my way in here, and now you guys are talking about going somewhere else?
> 
> Guess I shoulda' brought some cold beer.


I'd settle for the toucan.


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## Paul Draker (Sep 11, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I'd settle for the toucan.


Shhh... he might hear!


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## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

(I didn't read a couple of the pages, just jumped in. Sorry if this has already been suggested.)

I agree that we could title our posts better, and I'm dying for a search engine that works better, too. Something that worked more like a good old-fashioned (horrors!) library cross-reference file. Better titles would help, there. Maybe we could come up with a list of subject categories that we could include in a post's heading, and that could be plucked out by the search engine --instead of having separate forums? 

Because... I like the Forrest-Gump's-box-of-chocolates-you-never-know-what-you're-gonna-get character of the Cafe, as it is. I need that stumble-upon aspect to stay in the Cafe! That's what makes it a do-a-little-dance, everyone's-welcome community, and not a place where people break off into cliques. 

What would we lurkers do?

--signed, Anxious


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

So far as people titling better, ain't gonna happen. I've been through that with umpteen forums. People don't get the memo.

What might work is if Harvey could grant trusted members the ability to re-title threads to something more informative of thread content. Very limited mod ability. Of course, then we would start to see threads debating the best way to title threads, and members insulting each other over that...


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Mr. RAD said:


> As for structural changes, well, I'd like to see threads that are Reddit-styled. You know, instead of pages of responses, all replies to a single thread show up on one page with nested comments and all.


Please no! All that clicking and backing. I like all the comments directly in the thread.


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## Joseph Turkot (Nov 9, 2012)

For whatever reason, I like that this place is an easily missed hole in the wall. It's reminiscent for me of "attraction rather than promotion." When I decided to take writing more seriously, the rabbit hole led me here. I think anyone who does the same will eventually land here.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

I think Hugh's proposal has some merit. 

Several of us here migrated from another forum (not sure if it's the 'The' other forum), and find far more value here. I now look on that forum as more of a 'beginners' forum and this one as a forum for authors who are further down the line.  However, even though the forum I previously visited daily is terribly maintained and horribly moderated, it has one really useful sub-forum that was tremendously useful to me when I started self publishing. That was the 'Formatting Issues' sub-forum. Beginning self publishers there ask very basic and detailed formatting questions and do get very detailed and useful formatting answers.

Somehow, I would be reluctant to post basic and beginning formatting questions on this forum, populated as it is by such well-established literary luminaries. It would seem inappropriate. So maybe at least a formatting sub-forum could be in order in a quiet corner of the Writer's Cafe.

Just a thought.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

I like the WC just as it is now.

I have an idea for an improvement of what already exists, though, since Harvey is listening to opinions. 

I'd love the ability to tag threads with a *preset* of tags, and be able to browse the lists of threads that have been tagged "#CoverArt", "#NeedHelp", "Fun", or whatever tags we could need.

The preset part would allow people to be sure they tagged right, instead of having the same kind of threads under different tags ("#CoverArt", "#Covers", "#CoevrArt", etc.).

And if there was a possibility of a RSS feed on those tags and on authors' posts, that would be awesome.


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## Lyndawrites (Aug 7, 2011)

"Once upon a time there was a tavern..."

Actually, it wasn't a tavern, it was a café, an ordinary caff. It was dark and dingy with Formica-topped tables holding sludgy-necked bottles of brown sauce and salt and pepper pots that had long since gummed up. It sold tea from a huge teapot manhandled by an old lady with well-muscled arms, coffee - black or white, and the best bacon butties (sandwiches) in town.

We went for the conversation, and the laughter, that flowed between the tables on topics as diverse as music, politics, space travel, and television. The  juke box in the corner was rarely silent and never that loud.

Then it changed hands, it became light and airy, sold croissants, dry bagels, and coffees that were little more than cups of foam. People left, moved elsewhere. The conversation died along with the soul of the place.

It's now a Gentlemen's' Outfitters


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## gonedark (May 30, 2013)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Harvey said:


> Structural changes, like defining boards and sub-boards, are easy to make administratively. I do have an aversion to making sub-boards, as I find it can cause discussions to be orphaned. But, it may be time to look at that anew, especially for our busy Writer's Cafe.


I think that sub-boards would help _lessen_ orphans. How many Scrivener threads are there? We have a ton of repeat threads that just get lost in the mix. I think it would be nice to have some organization to the threads that come up. A lot of the same topics get discussed and the same questions get asked.

I'm not bothered one way or another though. I don't mind change and would welcome it, but if it stays the same, that's fine with me too.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Count me as another one who likes things the way they are. Yahoo has "improved" its groups to where I never look at groups I followed for years. Someone urged me to join a particular Google+ group, and it's so modern it's pretty much useless.


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

I have been traveling the Internet highway checking out dozens and dozens of forums these first few days of the New Year. I found a few decent ones out there thus far but they can't touch this forum from Sunday to Monday.

This one without a shadow of a doubt is tops on the list as the best place to spend time reading many important threads as well as some good comments. Another point to consider also, this one is alive 24/7, while many others seem to be needing a "resurrection from the dead." 

If you're participating on this one, then its a feather in your hat.

BM


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Without reading the pages of posts, I'll just say that I'm not crazy about the idea of breaking the forum up into topics.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Cheryl M. said:


> I think that sub-boards would help _lessen_ orphans. How many Scrivener threads are there? We have a ton of repeat threads that just get lost in the mix. I think it would be nice to have some organization to the threads that come up. A lot of the same topics get discussed and the same questions get asked.
> 
> I'm not bothered one way or another though. I don't mind change and would welcome it, but if it stays the same, that's fine with me too.


I'd rather have more frequent Scrivener (or other topics) threads with actual, current information, than have to read a 35 pages thread filled with old news.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Without reading the pages of posts, I'll just say that I'm not crazy about the idea of breaking the forum up into topics.


My idea would be nice for that, we would still have all the threads in one place but people could browse topics if they wished? Harvey could also make it a switch on/off for people who don't want to see them.

Example:


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I think this place could probably do with a bit of tweaking, but no more than that. I'm not keen on the idea of subforums either. I joined another writers' forum, intending to get involved with that, but the constant clicking into subforums to find what I want put me off, so I never bother going there.

I agree with what someone said earlier: one of the biggest draws of this place for me is the people. How the forum works is a bit of a minor issue by comparison.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

I think it would be cool if we could have an off-topic sub forum attached to Writer's Cafe where we could have a bit of fun. We could discuss the meaning of life, the weather, place bets on when that chappie from Man v. Food will finally explode, and perhaps play some silly word games.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Colin said:


> I think it would be cool if we could have an off-topic sub forum attached to Writer's Cafe where we could have a bit of fun. We could discuss the meaning of life, the weather, place bets on when that chappie from Man v. Food will finally explode, and perhaps play some silly word games.


There's already a subforum called Not Quite Kindle for that kind of thing.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Colin said:


> I think it would be cool if we could have an off-topic sub forum attached to Writer's Cafe where we could have a bit of fun. We could discuss the meaning of life, the weather, place bets on when that chappie from Man v. Food will finally explode, and perhaps play some silly word games.





Lydniz said:


> There's already a subforum called Not Quite Kindle for that kind of thing.


 

Yes, there's a world outside the Writers' Café.... See the Not Quite Kindle...



Betsy


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Yes, there's a world outside the Writers' Café.... See the Not Quite Kindle...
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


Great Betsy! Have they discovered the meaning of life yet?


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## Adrian J. Walker (Jan 28, 2012)

OK, I feel like the guy turning up late to the party with a warm six-pack, but I'm here! Should have been on here a year ago at least.  Reading through this thread it sounds like this is a great community and I'm looking forward to sharing and connecting with all of you.

Also happy to offer my views on the forum as a newbie. I'm using Tapatalk...anyone else?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Colin said:


> Great Betsy! Have they discovered the meaning of life yet?


No need to call me "Great Betsy," a simple Betsy, leaving off the honorific, will do. 

And yes. The answer is 42.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No need to call me "Great Betsy," a simple Betsy, leaving off the honorific, will do.
> 
> And yes. The answer is 42.


So the meaning of life is 42. That's great Betsy and explains a lot.

Sorry, I'm from Great Britain, so can't help myself.


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## Sarah Stimson (Oct 9, 2013)

I run a forum (not a writing one) and members are ALWAYS resistant to change.  We've not made many changes over the years but when we do, we don't tend to put it up for debate as it's impossible to keep everyone happy.

That said - as it's up for debate here's my opinion  

I've been using this board for three months or so.  What would have made it much more user friendly is to have the Writers' Cafe split into three sections:

- Writing (as in, the craft of)
- Publishing (formating, trad vs indie, different distributor issues and so on)
- Sales and Marketing

There would be some threads that wander away from the original topic and that's fine - I am not a fan of forums where the mods are constantly telling the members to stick to the topic and I am v glad it doesn't happen here.  Some of the best threads evolve that way.


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## Andrzej Tucholski (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm a total newbie here, but I like the general flavour of - well - Writer's Cafe. Single room with different tables all around the place. But more subforums means better organization and I'm all about good organization


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

I agree with Hugh. This is the best place for selfpublishing on the internet and it will only get bigger. It should be allowed to grow in an organized fashion. It seems bizarre that it's still a subforum of a subforum.

Edit: By keeping this as a small rabbit hole, new people trying to find out about selfpublishing can get stuck in other forums with all sorts of bad information.


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

The one thing (apart from money, fame, sex, chocolate etc...) that we as writers all crave, is time. The problem at the moment is that as more & more people discover this place & go on to post themselves, the simple act of dipping in is going to suck more & more time from us. Granted, the meandering & discovering can be fun/productive too but as with the Net generally, if we want to do more than just fill hundreds of hours, we need to be able to search precisely and quickly. 
Think about the posters, some of them regulars, who have admitted in this thread that they just jumped in without reading it all. Four pages+ of threads, many of them long, will become the daily norm and not all of us have the time or patience to wade through to find the stuff we want.
More precise headers would help but I'm in favour of at least considering some kind of subforum structure. The people are what make the forum but they might not all stay if we spend more and more time combing for nuggets of literary/marketing gold.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Ever think about how hidden and out of the way this joint is, and yet it has become the best single spot for authors to come for publishing advice? It's pretty crazy. A subforum off a subforum.
> 
> There's been talk of breaking this out of a single subforum so we can keep threads organized by subject matter. And I get Harvey not wanting to mess with what's working. But I'd love to know what percentage of the site's traffic or revenue comes from this little corner of it. Because I think it could really grow and breathe if allowed to.
> 
> ...


No, just no....

Okay, not just no. Why no? The thing that makes this place great is the way its all in ONE place. Subforums for this kind of thread, subforums for that kind thread, no using it for this, but you CAN use it for that... I HATE that crap. I want to be able to come to one place where I don't have to search with precise terms just to find something worth reading! I know if I come here there will be something worth seeing. If its not on the first page, it will be on the first 4 pages because of the response times here are fabulous.

What you're really saying in my opinion Hugh, is not that it needs to be its own website or bigger etc (bursting at the seems? Come on, its just 1s and 0s in cyberspace, it is infinite!) You're really saying Harvey or somebody needs to publicise it more to more people. Getting the word out doesn't have to mean changing it. Change this place? Are you nuts? The reason everyone loves it so much is because it's great like it is?

How will making the page you are viewing now into a "website" make it better? Its all php code or html. If you mean you would like a different look, that's just templates. Separating the threads though, making sub forums to separate people into smaller and smaller groups? That's function. I say NO. Separating people isn't a good trend.

Sorry if I come across as testy, but this is the only place that I use now because it is PERFECT. You don't know how many times I have found places that word until someone thinks, "hey wouldn't it be great if..." No, it wasn't great. Segregation kills communities.


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

I'd rather things stayed the way they were, though I like the idea of the hashtags that Nathalie posted.

I like that you can scan the first (and subsequent) page and discover lots of different topics. A bit like overhearing different conversations in a cafe....


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> I like the WC just as it is now.
> 
> I have an idea for an improvement of what already exists, though, since Harvey is listening to opinions.
> 
> ...


Preset tags is an EXCELLENT idea. Search by tag, a list of threads appear. No need to search by title or content then and no need to go back in time looking for your place AND HUGE= no need for subforums for different topics. Score! You win the internets.


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## Doril (Nov 2, 2013)

Wansit said:


> I like the idea but I'm hesitant about different sub-forums for reasons mentioned. Maybe if there was just an easier way to search the Writer's Forum or even tag posts? Dozens of threads surrounding the same issue are started every week and many times people aren't aware that the same thing was just discussed yesterday at 2am because it disappeared onto page 5 and if you search for the topic you get stuff from 2011 in multiple sub-forums of this great board thingy.


I agree with this.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> I agree with Hugh. This is the best place for selfpublishing on the internet and it will only get bigger. It should be allowed to grow in an organized fashion. It seems bizarre that it's still a subforum of a subforum.
> 
> Edit: By keeping this as a small rabbit hole, new people trying to find out about selfpublishing can get stuck in other forums with all sorts of bad information.


What the hell? How is anything on the internet a small rabbit hole? Its not real! Its a WEBpage! The only thing small about any webpage is its traffic, and this place has BIG traffic from writers, which is what makes it good. Dammit, I am getting steamed. I DON'T ever get steamed. Look, make the place cosmetically pretty and more modern, add preset tags, better search... all great and modern. FINE. BUT do not segregate the community.

Look at every other forum THAT YOU DO NOT USE they are full of useless sub forums and categories. New threads are put in multiple places because the author of the thread just know that no one will read it or might miss it if he doesn't. Browsers ignore entire categories as not being relevent to them, without checking. ITS A BAD IDEA!

Pants and breaths fire. Noooooooo to segregation! Make this place bigger? Add more 1s and 0s? Making this place bigger really only means add more users. You do that by publicising the place more, getting the word out, not by splitting people into little groups.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No need to call me "Great Betsy," a simple Betsy, leaving off the honorific, will do.
> 
> And yes. The answer is 42.


I thought you were going to say to drop the "Betsy."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

A couple of things that address comments I've seen here...

We have two ways to search the forum. One is the Google search at the top right of the forum.

The other one is hidden, available only to those who are willing to master its secrets... 

No, seriously, there is a second one, but before I tell you where it is, you have to promise to use it carefully, as misuse creates a big drain on forum resources. OK? Everyone pinky swear?

It's under "forum" in the top menu. The trick to using it is to narrow the search to a specific forum, like, say, The Writers' Café. Tap to deselect the check mark by "Check all" and then tap on the plus key and select the Writers' Café. Fill in the other criteria as desired. As long as you narrow your search as much as possible, you shouldn't break the forum. *crosses fingers* I always start with the Google search; and if I can't find what I want that way, move to the forum search

Also, when browsing the Writers' Café, as many of you know, threads that have posts new to you have the little "new" indicator next to them. What many may not know is that, by tapping on the "new" indicator itself, it will take you directly to the earliest post that you haven't seen in that thread. So you don't have to remember where you were in the thread. This is how I read all threads. (Once you've entered a thread, however, it assumes you've seen all posts in the thread up to that time, so if you leave the thread before reading everything, well...) Leave no thread unread!

Hope this helps a little with navigation and searching with our current forum software.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mark, take a deep breath, you're scaring the new folk. Find your zen.... 



Hugh Howey said:


> I thought you were going to say to drop the "Betsy."


I like the way you think.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Mark, take a deep breath, you're scaring the new folk. Find your zen....


Ommmmmmmmmm.....


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Harvey said:


> I am open to the Writer's Cafe, and the forum overall, evolving to better meet the needs of our community. So I welcome this discussion and the ideas put forth!
> 
> In mid-March, we will be converting to an upgraded forum software. The change is quite significant behind-the-scenes, although the actual changes from a user point of view will be mostly cosmetic. One change, badly needed, is we'll be implementing a robust search engine that will make searching the forum, or searching a particular sub-board, a much improved experience. Right now our two search options (Google site search and a rudimentary forum search) are pretty crude.
> 
> Structural changes, like defining boards and sub-boards, are easy to make administratively. I do have an aversion to making sub-boards, as I find it can cause discussions to be orphaned. But, it may be time to look at that anew, especially for our busy Writer's Cafe.


I'm glad to hear that some upgrades are coming. Not that the place is crap, it most certainly isn't, but it definitely needs an upgrade (especially the search function).

The only real change I would opine on is making the Writer's Cafe its own forum section, no longer a child of another section. I can't really see a need for subforums unless editors, cover artists, typesetters, etc. all thought they'd have a better experience within their own subforums. Since I'm none of those things, I can't say one way or another if I think it is a good idea or not.

I do believe that other writers would have an easier time finding the place if it was a bit more in the open on the site (or maybe had some other way of being more visible outside of the site). If one of the members here hadn't mentioned it in a thread at the KDP forums that there was an alternative, and I hadn't been in the right place at the right time to find it, I'd probably still be wandering across the vast internet, stuck in other places that aren't nearly as helpful and useful as this place.

As far as I knew, Kboards.com was only a place to talk about Kindles and books. I'd surfed through here before and never saw that authors had a place to hang out. I would never want to see readers (our bread and butter) made to suffer or inconvenienced or even be given second-billing, but I do think as more and more writers join the fray, and find other places to be, let's just say, less than optimal for civilized and intelligent discussion, it would benefit not only them, but the rest of us 'old timers' by making it easier to find us and connect with us.

We don't want to be a backwoods hick village with a ton of inbreeding, do we? We need fresh blood. Some of us need fresh blood to be mean to, but most of us need fresh blood because fresh blood brings in new ideas, new questions that maybe none of us had thought of yet, new discussions, and even new problems to solve as brotherhood/sisterhood.

Plus I want more people I can type messages to while not wearing pants.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

markecooper said:


> What the hell? How is anything on the internet a small rabbit hole? Its not real! Its a WEBpage! The only thing small about any webpage is its traffic, and this place has BIG traffic from writers, which is what makes it good. Dammit, I am getting steamed. I DON'T ever get steamed. Look, make the place cosmetically pretty and more modern, add preset tags, better search... all great and modern. FINE. BUT do not segregate the community.
> 
> Look at every other forum THAT YOU DO NOT USE they are full of useless sub forums and categories. New threads are put in multiple places because the author of the thread just know that no one will read it or might miss it if he doesn't. Browsers ignore entire categories as not being relevent to them, without checking. ITS A BAD IDEA!
> 
> Pants and breaths fire. Noooooooo to segregation! Make this place bigger? Add more 1s and 0s? Making this place bigger really only means add more users. You do that by publicising the place more, getting the word out, not by splitting people into little groups.


If someone told me that there's a company, and it's the biggest and best at X. And I said, oh cool, what's the website address, and he said, it doesn't have a website, you go to company Y, then look inside the section about Z and then you'll find it. Let's just say I wouldn't exactly believe the person I was talking to, and I wouldn't bother going to www.companyY/sectionZ/bestcompanyX.

It's not segregation, it's letting people choose what they want to read about and discuss. If there're three subforums and you want to see them all, then click on them all. You get to be part of the full community, those who prefer to reside in a smaller subsection get their wish, and there's the option to mainly use one subforum, but check other ones briefly when there's time. It creates options, not segregation.

There's a certain limit to the size of a single forum. If posts fly off the page as soon as they are created then, it becomes unusable. Not saying that writer's cafe is at that level, but it would be a shame that the community becomes limited by the organization/lack of it.

Following all the threads in the Writer's Cafe takes a lot of time. It might be why people tend to disappear once they become successful. But if there was subforums, it'd be easier to stay a daily part of your favorite aspect of the cafe, stay part of the community, without it taking over an hour a day to stay on top of things.

Anyway, the Writer's Cafe is great, I have no problem with it staying the way it is. But I think there are ways to make it grow and get better without losing it's spirit. What makes Writer Cafe great is the members and the mods, not the organization. Don't fix what isn't broke is a very limiting motto, and a lot of advancement in all sorts of things have been made by ignoring that.

One forum has been great for growing it into what it is, but maybe there comes a time when you have to give it room to let it expand.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

(I haven't read the whole thread, so I may have missed something important)

Better searching/tagging would be great. 

I like having everything all on one page (no sub-forums of sub-forums) because that way it's easier and quicker to keep up with what's going on. When I was hanging out over on AW, I probably lost days of writing time to "oh, now that I'm done with The Roundtable let me see what's new in BWQ" or whatever, and vice versa. It's less of a time suck to just scroll through the first few pages of this forum and see what's new.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

ameliasmith said:


> I probably lost days of writing time to "oh, now that I'm done with The Roundtable let me see what's new in BWQ" or whatever, and vice versa. It's less of a time suck to just scroll through the first few pages of this forum and see what's new.


+23


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> If someone told me that there's a company, and it's the biggest and best at X. And I said, oh cool, what's the website address, and he said, it doesn't have a website, you go to company Y, then look inside the section about Z and then you'll find it. Let's just say I wouldn't exactly believe the person I was talking to, and I wouldn't bother going to www.companyY/sectionZ/bestcompanyX.


Exactly what I was driving at. It's a matter of better publicity, NOT changing the forum. You can get a domain name called writerscafe.com and have the same host point it directly to any web address. I have markecooper.com point directly to my blog page on my main publisher site. Harvey could do that for the cafe. Getting writerscafe.com on Google's first page now, that is more what is needed to get more writers aware of us, but first get the name linked to the board itself.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> My idea would be nice for that, we would still have all the threads in one place but people could browse topics if they wished? Harvey could also make it a switch on/off for people who don't want to see them.
> 
> Example:


I love this idea. Lets do it at once!


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## Accord64 (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm an occasional poster that doesn't spend a lot of time reading through the topics. I just don't have the time to keep up. For me, this place is like trying to take a drink from a fire hose.

I don't think that's necessarily bad, because it's a clear sign that this is an active and healthy forum. But success brings it's own set of challenges. I often wonder how many members (like me) who breeze through and remain passive because there's just too much going on to keep up with.

But on the other side of the coin, if you mess with the formula that already draws in so many active participants, will it degrade the quality of what's already here?

I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I like this forum as is but I do get frustrated at times when I can't find a thread I read the week before because it's buried twenty pages back. I don't want the WC to break off into an independent forum even if it had a link back to here. I may not venture out too often but I do sometimes and know I would miss general kindle related info. 

However, as distasteful as I find the other place, I do like all the different boards there. For instance, the board for researching real life issues. It seems no matter the topic, there is someone who has some knowledge. We've had sporadic threads where someone asked for advice but a subforum for questions about specific topics would be great. 

As far as other writers not finding this site, I have to say they haven't looked very hard or just aren't into message boards because I have mentioned this place to dozens of writers in real life writing groups but they never show up.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Having been a member of a few forums (all of which were divided and sub-divided by topic), the first time I came here it was a little overwhelming, kind of like the first time you dive into the Twitter stream.

But you know what? I like it this way. It gives it a certain kind of vibrancy.

I'd also worry that if you break it up into further sub-forums that people will gravitate towards their specific areas of interest, not interact so much, and little fiefdoms will arise (or maybe I'm scarred by one particular forum experience!).

The current set-up might be messy and chaotic, but I think it also means that I get exposed to a lot more topics/news items/points of view than I would if it was sub-divided.


(Note: perhaps the hashtag idea suggested by Nathalie could be a smart way of tracking topics without sub-dividing)


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Serendipity has found me a lot of useful info in the Writer's cafe. If I just went to certain threads that I thought might be useful, I would have missed out  .


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Again, just my opinion....

I really don't want to see this place look like Absolute Write Forum. They started forming cliques because no one talks to everyone any more. And then when there is some big gossipy piece, everyone converge in the Water Cooler subforum anyway.

What Hugh is asking for is a huge thing (haha). Great idea, but he must then be part of the administrators so he can work with all the problems and challenges Harvey and our moderators have to face. For example, he can be in charge of the Teaching Self-Pubs sub-forum. A big name is essential because if not, noobs and even I would just ask my questions on the General Forum because yeah...maybe Hugh would see my questions there.

And would anyone visit the Announce Your Good News sub-forum? Not really, especially when I'm in a hurry. So many people with milestones will just post in the General Forum to tell their happy news. I like seeing all the announcements on Pg 1 because then I know our writers are doing well.

Then there will be the Publishing News sub-forum. What, let's go visit it once a week? I'll soon forget to read it unless someone talks about it in the General Forum. Aha, link from General Forum! Sigh. Self-defeating.

Maybe a Newbie sub-forum? Who will go there regularly to help out? Yes, we need a Big Name volunteer there so newbie authors who don't get immediate answers don't start posting in the...General Forum.

We hang out here because this is the coffee place-grand bazaar. It's fun. It's crazy. Just like self-publishing. Don't make us all traditional.

I don't research into writing and publishing much and yet I found this place. It wasn't that difficult. And then, because I loved the atmosphere so much, I BOOKMARKED it. Just this page.

I'm one of those people who don't DVR their shows because I have no time to watch them. I can't DVR five or six sub-forums, so I'll just be bookmarking the main hangout, the...General Forum.

Anyway, Harvey's the one with the final decision ;-). I'll just be happy to go to the one area/subforum everyone hangs out at!

Edited to add: Thumbs up to Nathalie's hashtag idea.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I have no idea if this is even possible.

But a cool compromise would be if all new posts appear as they are now, for the first 3-4 pages. 
Once they're off the first few pages they are likely no longer a subject of intense discussion.  So then, perhaps because of how their OP is tagged, they automatically get sorted into sub-folders. People looking for older threads usually look for a certain subject, so it'd be easier to find that way (i.e. cover artists).


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## Writer1000 (Jul 28, 2013)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Serendipity has found me a lot of useful info in the Writer's cafe. If I just went to certain threads that I thought might be useful, I would have missed out .


I second this.

I prefer the forum as it is, but I think Nathalie's idea of the hashtags is great.


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## Rachel Aukes (Oct 13, 2013)

I like the current setup. It's like a big party, but I get to hear every conversation without walking around. If we set up subforums, then I'd feel like we have to go sit at a table, listen, then get up and move to another table. 

David said it best... there's a vibrancy to how it works today.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm pleased to hear that an improvement to search is on the way.  I've actually found it faster lately to go off-site to Google proper in order to find a specific thread!  You'd think that the Google site search would be as good, but it's not.

I'm not a fan of sub forums.  I agree with other posters that too many of those can kill a forum.  There needs to be a real need for a sub forum before you open one.  About the only one I can see a current potential requirement for is a services thread, and the rules on thread bumping generally help to keep those under control.

If you have four or five pages with a date stamp of today, you can probably survive another sub-forum.  Fewer than two or three, it might be risky.  

On the other hand, it might make sense to promote the Café out of the Book Bazaar.  It might encourage more people who haven't yet published to join it then.  I know I posted here for months before I hit publish, but I was initially cautious about doing so, and lurked for a while first to make sure that I wouldn't be breaking some unspoken rule of forum etiquette.  A lot of readers are interested in maybe writing a book one day, and having this forum a little more accessible might help inspire them to start!

A plea from me against nested comments!  Or at least to have the option to view the forum as we currently do.

I don't know how possible Nathalie's thread tagging suggestion is to implement.  But I think that's a great idea.

Edited to add:  If the forum software doesn't support tagging.  It might be possible for forum members in the know to use a single tag in the form of the little 'message icon' you can select when you make a new topic or post.  If the names and designs of those are customisable, then they could be used.  And existing members could advise new posters of how to change their icon if they think it might help them get more responses.  I've just changed the icon for this comment to a lamp to test it.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

David J Normoyle said:


> If someone told me that there's a company, and it's the biggest and best at X. And I said, oh cool, what's the website address, and he said, it doesn't have a website, you go to company Y, then look inside the section about Z and then you'll find it. Let's just say I wouldn't exactly believe the person I was talking to, and I wouldn't bother going to www.companyY/sectionZ/bestcompanyX.


I've had that same feeling when I've tried to tell other writers where this board is. However, I think a simple solution would be for there to be something on the very first page or whatever it is that new members see when they first sign up that directs them to The Writer's Cafe. Something like:

"Writers! You are welcome to enjoy all of the Kboards forums, but we have a special forum just for you to discuss writing and publisihing in The Writer's Cafe. Readers are not only welcome, but encouraged to participate."

If that kind of a post or ad, could be prominently displayed on a main page, it would go a long way towards making the cafe easier to find. I could just tell other writers to go to Kboards.com They will see a link to the board. I won't have to say it's s subforum of a subforum. (most people don't understand what a 'child board' is. I know I didn't when I came here and I've been on message boards since 1994)


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I've often said when this subject comes up that I don't want to see this type of change. I don't wander out of the cafe often, but I don't want to have to go to a different forum when I want to talk about Castle or Outlander or whatever. 

Since Harvey added bookmarks, I have no problem keeping up with threads that interest me even if they haven't been posted to in a while.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Like many here my forum time is usually very limited and this is the only one I spend any time in--usually 10 or 15 minute chunks. If there were various sub-forums of WC I would probably miss some good stuff since I probably wouldn't check every sub and topic. 

With everything in one big pot it seems easier to sift through what you want to read instead of clicking in and out of sub-forums. Search upgrade would be great though. Also if along with one's profile a "Favorites" where links to important threads could be stored and retrieved. 

Also a loud alarm that goes off after you've been in the WC for too long.  

EDIT: Like David G said the way it is gives a certain vibrancy and immediacy. I've been on other forums with many departments and I found I don't like them.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

This is so cool. Eagerly awaiting the arrivals of Patterson, King, Sheldon, Cook, etc.. to get their take on one star reviews.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

That poor craft forum would be filled with spiderwebs by day two.


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## Accord64 (Mar 12, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> Also a loud alarm that goes off after you've been in the WC for too long.


Funny, the same thing happens to me. 

My top two rules regarding internet forums are:

1. Stay off them if you have writing to do.

2. Stay off them if you have writing to do.

Oh, that alarm just went off again...


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## ER Pierce (Jun 4, 2013)

I really like the way things are - please don't change too much. I think a new search function would be awesome. I think moving writers Cafe out the sub forum for book bazaar is a great idea. I almost like the hashtag idea too, but I'm not sure. I don't want to see too many subforums for the Cafe. We'd lose the specialness of the cafe, I think, if we did. 
ETA - Also, please don't make the site like Reddit. I can't figure that place out for the life of me, and I don't have time to try!

Is there a possibility of making more posts on the first page? Instead of 20 (or whatever) maybe 40? Or would that be too crazy... just a thought.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't think you need loads of subforums, writers cafe isn't that big.

I have an idea, not sure if the forum software allows this though. Divide the cafe into several forums. Every new thread has to go into one of these subforums. But, there's also a forum which shows every post as now(an amalgamation forum.) So those who want to see a snapshot of everything can just browse and reply as always. Those who want to check out a certain aspect can just delve into just that subforum, and the threads will last a lot longer on the front page. (Perhaps you could have a setting on the amalgamation forum, where the user decides if he wants to stop seeing posts from a certain subforum.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

jackz4000 said:


> With everything in one big pot it seems easier to sift through what you want to read instead of clicking in and out of sub-forums. Search upgrade would be great though. Also if along with one's profile a "Favorites" where links to important threads could be stored and retrieved.


Jack, we've had a "bookmarks" feature on the forum for several months now...when you're in a thread, you can tap on the "Add Bookmark" in the little blue menu bar above the thread, next to "Reply."

And to view your bookmarks, go to the top menu, select the "forum" dropdown menu and tap on bookmarks.

To remove something from your bookmarks, go to the top menu, select the "forum" dropdown menu and tap on bookmarks. Then, within your bookmarks, tap on the little box on the far right of the thread or threads you want to remove and tap on "Delete Selected Bookmarks" at the bottom of the list of bookmarks.

See? Ask and you shall receive!

Betsy


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Arggh, are nested replies the kind that  you have to click on the main reply and see replies to replies?

Arghh. What are we, Livejournal


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I've been biting my tongue on providing comment on this one but since I do read the Writers' Café pretty often for some reason  I'm going to say that I despise nested replies with a deep and abiding passion. My .02 on that issue.

Betsy


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## OliviaF (Feb 3, 2013)

Noooo! I love this place, the community, and that everything is all together. There are so many wonderful threads I would have missed out on simply because I would have never thought a particular sub-forum would have anything relevant to me.

That said, I do love the idea of being able to tag or categorize posts so it's easy to find them and easy to see what they are about. And having a writets' cafe URL that redirects to the cafe would be cool for when I recommend this place to others. 

But I want us all to stay together!


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

This flow of feedback is really helpful. 

To over-generalize, I think people coming to the WC are in one of two modes:

(a) GENERAL - just taking in and participating in the flow of WC ideas, inspiration, and conversation;
or
(b) looking specifically for ideas/advice/opinions on a particular matter, such as covers, blurbs, marketing, writing, formatting, tips from successful authors, etc.

With that in mind, I think the 'tagging' suggestion from Nathalie is a very good one -- it would retain the one-room atmosphere and vibrancy, while allowing you to filter the list of threads to a particular topic if there is a particular subject you're aiming for.

Also, the suggestion that tags be "pre-set" is a very good one and really the only way to make that feature useful.

Tagging is not currently a feature in our forum software, or even in the SMF 2.0 upgrade that will take place in March. There are some software mods available that provide a tagging feature, although I haven't found one yet that I feel comfortable installing -- i.e. that is both fully-featured and well-supported.

A lot of our features here are unique to KBoards, as we've customized the software quite a bit. So I may just look into adding our own flavor of tagging that we program ourselves.


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Serendipity has found me a lot of useful info in the Writer's cafe. If I just went to certain threads that I thought might be useful, I would have missed out .


I second this. As soon as I read Hugh's post, I realized that some of the best, most useful and sometimes most entertaining info comes from posts on subjects that I would never have searched for in some sub-forum (come to think of it, a sub-forum would be a great place for fans of FSOG--sorry Hugh for another reference to your friend E.L.).


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy beat me to the punch about BookMarks -- I use 'em regularly, though in my case, in addition to topics I want to follow out of personal interest, it's also topics I need to follow in case they blow up!  

I agree with the suggestion to try to make your subject lines more meaningful.  I'm not sure the hashtag idea is possible, but I'm sure Harvey will check into it.  There are icons you can choose when you start a new topic -- maybe we could look at whether there could be additional ones that would make for more meaningful tagging.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

There is another feature that I'd like to provide, which is a list of "similar threads" that appear when you're viewing a particular thread. That's a standard feature in vBulletin, which is a popular forum software package, and one I'm looking at providing for our forum.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'll note that both the tagging and the "similar threads" features would be of great value throughout the larger forum, not just in the Writers' Café.  Coolness!

Betsy


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

The essential difference between WC and the Absolute Write Water Cooler and other writers' sites, is Kindle.  This is the Amazon Kindle place.  It's true, the mods allow many non-Kindle topics to stay on the WC because they know that topics die when they are sent off to Not Quite Kindle, for esxample  I don't object to that; I post quasi-Kindle topics.  It's no sweat to go back three or four pages, and the search features and bookmark functions keep improving.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Just echoing what other people have said...I like the current setup just fine, but an improved search function would be awesome. (And tags, if possible.)

And no nested comments! Those things are the devil.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hudson Owen said:


> It's true, the mods allow many non-Kindle topics to stay on the WC because they know that topics die when they are sent off to Not Quite Kindle, for esxample I don't object to that; I post quasi-Kindle topics.


Well, really, we don't. (Especially Ann, she's the organized one. ) If a truly non-Writers-Cafe thread stays here, it's because we didn't notice it until it was off the front page.  Or because I was lazy.

Betsy


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I've been biting my tongue on providing comment on this one but since I do read the Writers' Café pretty often for some reason  I'm going to say that I despise nested replies with a deep and abiding passion. My .02 on that issue.
> 
> Betsy


Me three! I hate nests. I LOVE the bookmark button, but you do realise that the dropdown menu system is the biggest pile of... well, I hehe mod and all.

So okay, the dropdown menu is the WORST part of a lot of your problems. I never even glance at them, and it took me forever to realise where search was that last time it changed. No one looks all the way up there for stuff do they? My eyes start seeing stuff just below our profile pic. If you want people to use search more (and I love the idea of preset tags, and make it a mandatory thing that you have to choose one of them when you create a thread so they don't get forgotten. Tick boxes maybe?) then put the search under the profile pic.

I can't be the only one who looks straight away at the "You have new messages" thing when entering the cafe. Its got to be the first thing everyone sees right? Put important things near there, not at the top above banners no one looks at.

My 2 pennies worth (we don't have cents here) AND YES, I did spell cents with a c not an S!


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## Adrian J. Walker (Jan 28, 2012)

As somebody who's only just taking a look in the WC (already said I'm late to the party) my first instinct is that sub-forums would help.

Having said that, I wonder what I'd miss if I only jumped into the forums I thought might interest me? I like the idea of listening in on a big heap of conversations and getting to know people that way too.

So there. Nice and non-committal.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Gennita Low said:


> Arggh, are nested replies the kind that you have to click on the main reply and see replies to replies?
> 
> Arghh. What are we, Livejournal


Oh, please, no nested replies.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

markecooper said:


> Me three! I hate nests. I LOVE the bookmark button, but you do realise that the dropdown menu system is the biggest pile of... well, I hehe mod and all.


I'm not passionate about nests . . . but I think this way is better.



> So okay, the dropdown menu is the WORST part of a lot of your problems. I never even glance at them, and it took me forever to realise where search was that last time it changed. No one looks all the way up there for stuff do they? My eyes start seeing stuff just below our profile pic. If you want people to use search more (and I love the idea of preset tags, and make it a mandatory thing that you have to choose one of them when you create a thread so they don't get forgotten. Tick boxes maybe?) then put the search under the profile pic.
> 
> I can't be the only one who looks straight away at the "You have new messages" thing when entering the cafe. Its got to be the first thing everyone sees right? Put important things near there, not at the top above banners no one looks at.
> 
> My 2 pennies worth (we don't have cents here) AND YES, I did spell cents with a c not an S!


See, and, to me, what we have now at the top of the page is a VAST improvement over what we had before -- which was just a bunch of disorganized links. THIS way, there are categories of links. And if you look through you'll notice that some links are in more than one category because people think of things differently.

Also, remember, not everyone has the same preferences for what they want to hit first. For example I have my preferences set that when I come to Kboards, if I have a PM, I get a pop up that lets me know that and asks if I want to open the PM section in a new tab. In fact, if one comes in while I'm on the board, I get that notice when I go to a new post or board. So, really, the 'new messages' bolding there is usually redundant for me. Very rarely I'll notice there's a new message without having gotten the pop up but when that happens it's a bug. 

And -- brace yourselves -- I almost never come to the Cafe first.  I browse the whole board section by section. So I'll open each board in a tab and go through posts with the new tag. Some boards I really do read just about every post, but others I skim by 'headline' and open threads that look interesting in a new tab and then just mark the board as read. I almost never use 'show unread posts' or 'show new replies'. But I know there are a lot of people who do. If it was my decision, those two links could go entirely. In their place, I'd put the link to MY bookmarks.


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## Rejean (Mar 31, 2011)

dgaughran said:


> Having been a member of a few forums (all of which were divided and sub-divided by topic), the first time I came here it was a little overwhelming, kind of like the first time you dive into the Twitter stream.
> 
> But you know what? I like it this way. It gives it a certain kind of vibrancy.
> 
> ...


I agree. I don't post much, just tend to race through to catch the day's (or hour's) highlights. I like being able to see what is top of mind (even if it is another cover critique thread).


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## Jo Clendening (Apr 9, 2011)

James Bruno said:


> I wholeheartedly back your suggestion. Also, this site is badly in need of modernization and streamlining. It needs technical revamping from top to bottom.


I agree. It's time for redecorating.


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## T.K. (Mar 8, 2011)

> I like the current setup just fine, but an improved search function would be awesome. (And tags, if possible.)


I vote for this. (Are we voting?)

Anyway, several years back I was an active member on another site. It was set up very similar to the the WC. Lots of members, a variety of topics, active and engaging. Then they changed it to a 'better' system and the site nearly died out. It wasn't only different, it was_ too_ different. After that it was just aimless wandering... The internet became a cold lonely place... I tried other sites but they didn't quite fit... Then alas, one fine day I found utopia! Okay, maybe not quite utopia, but the WC is pretty close and I like it just the way it is.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Maybe an A/B test would help? Leave everything as it is, but add some parallel forums for specific topics. Put a permalink to those new forums at the top of Writers Cafe to give them good exposure. 

Then see what happens. That lets people decide for themselves what best meets their needs, and I suspect it isn't major effort to implement..


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> And -- brace yourselves -- I almost never come to the Cafe first.


Infidel. You will never lie with 12 virgins.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Infidel. You will never lie with 12 virgins.


What would Ann want with a bunch of virgins? 

FWIW, I like the tag idea, too.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

I also vote for an improved search function. Maybe that will eliminate duplicate threads. 

Otherwise I kind of like WC the way it is. Free form, post anything writing/publishing related, with moderators making sure there's civility. Like a cafe, you know. 

As for tradpub vs selfpub, there's no problem there, really. There will be more and more hybrid authors, and there shouldn't be a have and have not division on the forum, IMO. Many tradpub authors I know are selfpubbing on the side e.g. backlists or short stories or other works their tradpub don't want to publish. And some selfpubbers are getting tradpub contracts. So there is a blending these days. For that reason, the name "Writer's Cafe" actually fits every writer, regardless of how you publish.

Just my two cents.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Jack, we've had a "bookmarks" feature on the forum for several months now...when you're in a thread, you can tap on the "Add Bookmark" in the little blue menu bar above the thread, next to "Reply."
> 
> And to view your bookmarks, go to the top menu, select the "forum" dropdown menu and tap on bookmarks.
> 
> ...


You just saved my sanity. I first saw the bookmark link and thought COOL! Then I couldn't find what I had bookmarked and was bummed out.

With that bit of knowledge, I'm still ambivalent about any changes to WC. On the one hand, it is really busy and stuff has a way of falling off the main 20 post page in a matter of minutes. If that's happening, then I think it's a lot larger than many people realize. It is a bit overwhelming for someone new like me. I wasn't finding anything at all and felt sort of at the whims and whimsies of the activity.

On the other, segmenting into subfora can end up with a drop of vibrant commenting as people section off into their interests and end up staying there.

Indecision. I'm just glad I found out how to find my bookmarks so I'm with the majority on this, whatever the majority ends up being.


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## dkgould (Feb 18, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Jack, we've had a "bookmarks" feature on the forum for several months now...when you're in a thread, you can tap on the "Add Bookmark" in the little blue menu bar above the thread, next to "Reply."
> 
> And to view your bookmarks, go to the top menu, select the "forum" dropdown menu and tap on bookmarks.
> 
> ...


lol I think what we really need is a guided video tour of shortcuts and features that already exist. I think Betsy has already posted three shortcuts that I didn't know how to use before and this thing is only up to six pages.


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## Sarah Ettritch (Jan 5, 2012)

I've been hanging around the Writers' Café for a while. I don't post often (see my post count), but I read the forum several times a day. I like having everything in one place, and I think that Harvey and the mods do a great job of keeping things on track. I'd hate having to click into multiple forums.

When I come across a thread I'll want to reference later, I bookmark it using my browser (I wasn't aware of the forum bookmark feature. Neat!).

I agree with the comments about the dropdown menu. It took me forever to figure out how to log off. If I haven't logged on for a while, I have to figure it out all over again.

Anyway, just my $0.02.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Remember, the writer's cafe isn't JUST for Writers!  Predominately it is of course, but it is a place for those of us who are JUST readers to interact with you all. I remember when it was started. Wanna talk about impossible to find threads? All conversations took place in book threads in the Bazaar. Imagine, the only way to hear anything from Jeff, or Hugh, or the Davids, was through reading in their book threads and commenting.

As someone who reads threads in more than just the WC, yes improved search function would be amazing, and yeah I know how to use BOTH existing search functions pretty well. Tags would be a FABULOUS addition.  Moving the WC out as just a regular subforum of KB instead of a sub forum of the Bazaar would be great. Nested threads, CRAPOLA. Breaking into many other subfora (?), not a good choice.  It just isn't. I have been a member of places that had lots of segregated and highly enforced subforums, and inevitably, it goes great for about 3-6 months, and then, it just becomes too much hassell, and people start leaving. Within a year, all of the good that creating the subforums did, is overshadowed by the slow death of the whole place.

back in the beginning of the WC, a couple of authors saw what they believed to be a better potential for the forum as its own place, and left to create  a similar place. almost no-one followed them, and of those that did follow, they ended up coming back.in less than 3 months.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

dkgould said:


> lol I think what we really need is a guided video tour of shortcuts and features that already exist. I think Betsy has already posted three shortcuts that I didn't know how to use before and this thing is only up to six pages.


I need to put them together into a post somewhere.... 

Betsy


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Endi Webb said:


> This is what I want: every day, around 10 pm, someone post "Today's Writers' Cafe highlights", which will summarize all the insightful and noteworthy threads, let me know if there was a locked thread that day, give a play by play of any arguments (or at least link to them) and maybe a post-game analysis, a few of the best memes that people post, etc etc. Sometimes I just don't have time to read every single thread. I'm usually 98% there, but I'm sure I'm missing something.


THIS!

This would be a great use of the KBoards Blog.

We could set up a schedule where we each have a day of the year when we do this and give it to Harvey to post on the KBoards Blog.

Please?

This is what I want, too. A summary so that I don't miss the good stuff.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Cherise Kelley said:


> THIS!
> 
> This would be a great use of the KBoards Blog.
> 
> ...


There's nothing to stop y'all from doing this^ now--why don't you start it and we'll see how it goes? There seems to be a lot of interest --Who's going to start?

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> THIS!
> 
> This would be a great use of the KBoards Blog.
> 
> ...


I think my highlights would vastly differ from other people.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Sarah Ettritch said:


> I've been hanging around the Writers' Café for a while. I don't post often (see my post count), but I read the forum several times a day. I like having everything in one place, and I think that Harvey and the mods do a great job of keeping things on track. I'd hate having to click into multiple forums.
> 
> When I come across a thread I'll want to reference later, I bookmark it using my browser (I wasn't aware of the forum bookmark feature. Neat!).
> 
> ...


With the site update in March, our menu headers will change -- the forum-related menu items will be at the top level (for Login, Logout, My Bookmarks, etc. I think that will make things a bit easier.

We will continue to have a single strip of menu options, with some of them having dropdowns for menu sub-items.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I've been busy preparing a new release, so I haven't read the entire thread. Forgive me if the following has already been said.

I find that as I progress in my career and learn more about the craft and the business, I find fewer and fewer threads are of interest to me. In my earlier days, I read nearly every post in every thread, and contributed where I could. These days, only a few threads get my attention, as the topics tend to repeat as more people join our ranks. Occasionally, I will go in and offer my two cents, however, I get discouraged and have contemplated departing the WC as it seems to be of less interest these days.

I don't know if dividing the WC into several subforums like craft, marketing, sales, covers, etc... would help or hurt, but in my case, it would make it easier to find what I am looking for. I also suspect that it would help threads stay alive longer and reduce the number of similar threads.

I do agree with Hugh, however, that the Writer's Cafe has a lot more potential to exploit.


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Rykymus said:


> I've been busy preparing a new release, so I haven't read the entire thread. Forgive me if the following has already been said.
> 
> I find that as I progress in my career and learn more about the craft and the business, I find fewer and fewer threads are of interest to me. In my earlier days, I read nearly every post in every thread, and contributed where I could. These days, only a few threads get my attention, as the topics tend to repeat as more people join our ranks. Occasionally, I will go in and offer my two cents, however, I get discouraged and have contemplated departing the WC as it seems to be of less interest these days.
> 
> ...


Ryk. Don't leave. Your posts have been like gold for me. Seriously, if you leave I'll have to come stalk you on your website or something. Staying here makes my job a whole lot easier


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> THIS!
> 
> This would be a great use of the KBoards Blog.
> 
> ...


I'll try it once or twice and see if people like it.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

We have promoted the Writer's Cafe to a main sub-board in the forum. All of your URL links, Bookmarks, etc are unchanged.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Endi Webb said:


> I'll try it once or twice and see if people like it.


Thanks! I suggest doing this by posting it in a new WC thread (subject: something like Writer's Cafe: Daily Digest), and we'll copy/paste each day's update into a daily post in our KBoards blog.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I agree.  Better organization would help the repetitive threads issues.


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Harvey said:


> Thanks! I suggest doing this by posting it in a new WC thread (subject: something like Writer's Cafe: Daily Digest), and we'll copy/paste each day's update into a daily post in our KBoards blog.


 
Oh man, now there's pressure to make it nice. D'oh!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Harvey said:


> We have promoted the Writer's Cafe to a main sub-board in the forum. All of your URL links, Bookmarks, etc are unchanged.


Woo-hoo!


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

We've been called up to the show! Woo hoo!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Harvey said:


> With the site update in March, our menu headers will change -- the forum-related menu items will be at the top level (for Login, Logout, My Bookmarks, etc. I think that will make things a bit easier.
> 
> We will continue to have a single strip of menu options, with some of them having dropdowns for menu sub-items.


Great. Everyone will forget that you already had this site update planned, they'll just remember my boneheaded suggestion for change around here, and when things look different, I'll get cursed like Zuckerberg does when FB changes.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hugh Howey said:


> Great. Everyone will forget that you already had this site update planned, they'll just remember my boneheaded suggestion for change around here, and when things look different, I'll get cursed like Zuckerberg does when FB changes.


That's certainly my plan....



Harvey said:


> We have promoted the Writer's Cafe to a main sub-board in the forum. All of your URL links, Bookmarks, etc are unchanged.


Woohoo, Harvey. You must have one of these!










Betsy


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Great. Everyone will forget that you already had this site update planned, they'll just remember my boneheaded suggestion for change around here, and when things look different, I'll get cursed like Zuckerberg does when FB changes.


Are you kidding? You got us *promoted*!


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Yay, Harvey! Thanks for making the Writer's Cafe more noticeable. That's great!

Is there a way to expand the number of posts that show on the screen? Is that something a user can do in their settings? Or can Harvey do that with his magic Tardis thing he's got in the back room?

I rarely click to page 2, but I would scroll down farther to see what else is going on.

Lazy much? Yeah, I guess I am.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Endi Webb said:


> I'll try it once or twice and see if people like it.


Endi,

If you try to keep up every day, then you will burn out. How will you know if there is interest in your highlights?

To gauge interest, I suggest you post a sign-up thread that explains this.

I think this will only work if there is enough interest in signing up so that any one member only has to watch the board and post highlights once every few months, at most.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Yay! We've been promoted!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

And what about the area for trad pubbed adults. We want to be inclusive and don't want them feeling persecuted.  Maybe a subforum cage for them? Something surrounded by a special membrane that let's the trad tolerant among us interact with them but blocks people like JRT?


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Endi,
> 
> If you try to keep up every day, then you will burn out. How will you know if there is interest in your highlights?
> 
> ...


I'm just going to do a post or two and see if anyone likes it. If so, then we can do the whole signup thing. I agree, that is a lot of work. I would only do one per week. Or maybe a weekly digest is better. We'll see.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Victorine said:


> Yay, Harvey! Thanks for making the Writer's Cafe more noticeable. That's great!
> 
> Is there a way to expand the number of posts that show on the screen? Is that something a user can do in their settings? Or can Harvey do that with his magic Tardis thing he's got in the back room?
> 
> ...


There are two aspects to this: the number of threads shown on the board's index page (currently 25), and for a given thread the number of posts shown on a page (currently 25).

The latter is a bit of a performance concern, but I think it's the former that you're suggesting could be extended. I think there would not be a noticeable performance hit in increasing that... so I just did increase it, to 40.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Harvey said:


> There are two aspects to this: the number of threads shown on the board's index page (currently 25), and for a given thread the number of posts shown on a page (currently 25).
> 
> The latter is a bit of a performance concern, but I think it's the former that you're suggesting could be extended. I think there would not be a noticeable performance hit in increasing that... so I just did increase it, to 40.


Yay!

I think this will help more than anything except improved search functions.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Harvey said:


> The latter is a bit of a performance concern, but I think it's the former that you're suggesting could be extended. I think there would not be a noticeable performance hit in increasing that... so I just did increase it, to 40.


Oooo, KB! Suddenly you're so ... long!


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Jack, we've had a "bookmarks" feature on the forum for several months now...when you're in a thread, you can tap on the "Add Bookmark" in the little blue menu bar above the thread, next to "Reply."
> 
> And to view your bookmarks, go to the top menu, select the "forum" dropdown menu and tap on bookmarks.
> 
> ...


Ahhhh, so that is what that little button does, duh. I miss some things, thanks Betsy. You know I've been saving links to certain threads in a KB Favorites on my browser. Some really good threads are copy and pasted in a document folder. Thanks again Betsy.

WOW! WC out of the Bazaar now! You are fast Harvey!


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

I would say to keep the Cafe a general interest forum so as to continue attracting the widest variety of writers--especially for the purpose of rallying support for an individual author or putting a collaborative effort like the  present flash fiction anthology into motion.  Making a sub-cat like Collaborative Action will not work, in my view.  Too few will check it out.  These sort of grass roots projects need the greatest  number of eyeballs on the board to gather a sufficient group of writers to decide to take part.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Harvey said:


> There are two aspects to this: the number of threads shown on the board's index page (currently 25), and for a given thread the number of posts shown on a page (currently 25).
> 
> The latter is a bit of a performance concern, but I think it's the former that you're suggesting could be extended. I think there would not be a noticeable performance hit in increasing that... so I just did increase it, to 40.


Awesome! Thanks!

You rock.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Awesome! Thanks!
> 
> You rock.


40 is definitely nicer. Slows down the first page slippage too


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## OliviaF (Feb 3, 2013)

Harvey said:


> We have promoted the Writer's Cafe to a main sub-board in the forum. All of your URL links, Bookmarks, etc are unchanged.


Woo hoo! That's awesome! 



Hugh Howey said:


> Great. Everyone will forget that you already had this site update planned, they'll just remember my boneheaded suggestion for change around here, and when things look different, I'll get cursed like Zuckerberg does when FB changes.


Of course. I mean you run things around here, right?


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## lynnfromthesouth (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm also in favor of reorganization and/or a separate site. There are a lot of features on forums for the separation of topics that we are unable to use just on one board, such as "Most Recent Topics". Like others, I only come on at certain times of the day, and I find it really hard to sort through everything. I also would like to see some boards closed to the public for some discussions we might not want everyone to see, like sales numbers and so forth. Maybe even things like flash fiction challenges. Think about how much trouble we're having just keeping the anthology organized! I know everybody doesn't want to be like that other place, but it will never be that because the people who run it and visit it are different. They weren't the first writer's forum, and they don't have any sort of corner on being it either. They're just one community.

I like the idea that readers and writers are together, but I've worked with SMF and other software for many years, and I know they kinda have a breaking point when they get too large. The search function usually causes a lot of issues. Harvey and staff have really tried to keep up with us, but we're a wide and fractious bunch.


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## Shane Ward (Jan 25, 2013)

So, thats what happened to the "The Writers' Cafe" I thought it was strange it was located on the main page. I thought, "Wasn't the The Writers' Cafe located in the book The Book Bazaar.

This is a much better place for it.

Shane


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Holy canolly, Batman, we've moved up in the writer-icity world. Yee-haw! I need to get back here more often (deadlines, deadlines, oh woe is me...NOT!). Harvey, thanks! Hugh, thanks! Only managed to read the first 2 pages (waaaaay over there ------> over the rainbow) and then this most current page. And the planned updates sound like the perfect op to wait-and-see further needs/developments. I'm kinda fond of the creaky door, beverage stained countertops, thumb-tacked notes on walls, etc. If it wuz all squeaky-clean-like, not sure my furry muses would feel as welcome.  

Back to the to-do list. Oh...can we get some fresh catnip in here? I promise not to inhale (maybe just a smidge).


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Does this mean we are no longer a hole in the wall cafe but are now Starbucks on the main strip?


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

No, please don't change these boards!!!!! I love the way they are organic and I loved the way the Writer's Cafe (used to be hidden!) I think the greatness of these boards is that the Writer's Cafe and writers were/are a smaller segment under a much larger umbrella. I think the success of these boards is that it's designed to serve readers, even if they don't post as much as writers do.

I stumbled upon these boards before I ever "signed up" quite a while back, and found them totally confusing However, when I came back and spent some time figuring out/learning what was going on, it was a light bulb moment. I think these boards are sooooo VALUABLE, i think part of their value is that they are like a hidden treasure that must be mined. I think if you make them too open, out there, accessible, easy, you might devalue them.

Also, I haven't been here that long, but I already feel very loyal. I have no illusions, the mods are the backbone, and I just think they probably have great insights into how these boards work and it's not that we can't give input, but they've created this and have been here for many years and I respect their experience. 

Sorry to get so long winded, apparently I feel very passionate about this. It's such an oasis for me. I would so hate to lose it. I'm sorry if that's selfish


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Ever think about how hidden and out of the way this joint is, and yet it has become the best single spot for authors to come for publishing advice? It's pretty crazy. A subforum off a subforum.
> 
> There's been talk of breaking this out of a single subforum so we can keep threads organized by subject matter. And I get Harvey not wanting to mess with what's working. But I'd love to know what percentage of the site's traffic or revenue comes from this little corner of it. Because I think it could really grow and breathe if allowed to.
> 
> ...


So, what are your intentions, Hugh? What are your aims and objectives? Do you aim to increase the number of posters? Is the objective of the exercise to make the forum more accessible?

I've been running forums since 2005. I've set up groups and closed them down. The Published Authors Network group on LinkdedIn reached 10,000+ members before I closed it down. At the moment, I'm closing down the Published Authors group on Facebook. I set up the group in 2007. It took almost six years to grow to 1,000 members. Between May, 2013 and the end of December, 2013, the membership increased five fold to 5,324 members. Discussions disappeared and the group became a billboard full of links to Amazon, Smashwords, CreateSpace, B & N etc.

When I deleted the LinkedIn group, I clicked a "delete this group" button and was asked "are you sure?". Two clicks and the group was gone. I looked for the "Delete" this group link on Facebook. There isn't one. I had to search on Google to find out how to delete a group on Facebook. Administrators of groups on Facebook have to remove every single member and then delete themselves to close the group down.

On the first and second of January, I deleted 5,314 members of the group. No matter how many times I refreshed the page, or tried different sequences of deleting the last ten members, they would not budge. I can't close down the group. My daily task is to delete hundreds of posts from the group until it finally dies. Facebook sucks.

I'm sure the moderators work hard here moving and deleting inappropriate posts and threads. Attracting new members is not always a good thing. It can be a a real pain in the [email protected]@.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

EelKat said:


> I don't mind if it stays as it is now, but I have often thought it would be easier to navigate if The WC was it's own sub-forum, instead of a sub-sub-forum off of Book Bazzar.
> 
> I would find it much easier to use the forum if threads were divided into categories, such as Marketing, Writing Tips, Self publishing News, Covers, etc. Would make it far easier to find threads, as the search feature is rather tedious.
> 
> Also, I think there'd be fewer duplicate thread topics if we were allowed to post on threads older than 120 days.  Old threads get passed by because even if they get found, attempts to post on them result in a warning message in bright red letters, telling you NOT to reply. It specifically says to create a new thread. There are a lot of old threads 1342 pages of old threeads, but only the first 20 pages or so threads a newer than 120 days old, so it's pointless to even bother looking at threads past 20 pages back because we are not allowed to reply to them. Removing the rule (and the big red warning) telling us not to reply on threads 120 days old, would result in far fewer duplicate topic threads being created.


Thank you -- that is certainly true for the search tools and hopefully we'll see improvements in that before long.

Regarding the old thread situation, it's not a rule, just a warning. You can post in those older threads and often that's the preferred way to do it. The warning, though, does help address a common circumstance: people who Google some issue, follow a search results link to an old KBoards thread, and then comment in it without realizing it's no longer a current issue.


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