# Proofreading, a thing of the past?



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

What happened to editing and proofreading? I'm reading a DTB at the moment along with an ebook. Both have errors. I haven't kept track specifically but I suspect that at least 1/3 of what I read has errors, some works having multiple errors. Do publishers no longer employ people to find and correct those? I've heard that schools are now accepting cellular texting by students in their papers and tests. Have we become that stupid and therefore there are no more proofreaders and editors either? Or am I missing the boat by not making money finding the mistakes others are missing? If that's the case, where and how do I apply?


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

You're posting in the writer's cafe and not the other parts of the forum I think you usually post in.  Therefore, I have to think you believe the people here don't proofread their work.  Sorry to disabuse you of that notion, but *most* of the writers who frequent this forum do in fact employ proofreaders, sometimes more than one proofreader.

Any book, indie- or traditionally-published has errors. It's inevitable.  Some have more than others, depending on the skill of the proofreader and the budget of the author or the money budgeted by the publisher.

If you believe you would make a good proofreader and want to make a business of that, then perhaps you should consider it. In that case, you would post your resume here and your rates so that others might consider your expertise and experience. My best suggestion, though, would be to approach the writers you might want to have hire you in a way that doesn't suggest they don't care about the product they present to the reading public, and at all costs, avoid suggesting that they're "stupid" (your word, not mine.)


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

The sad truth of the matter is not all self-publishers (or small indie houses for that matter) put a lot of work into editing.  Plenty do, but I've seen for myself books that appear to have been barely run through a spell checker.  I hope these are more the exception then the rule, but the truth is with 2 million+ ebooks available it's hard to know for sure.

Those that don't take the time to release a quality product do a disservice to all of us (readers especially, but also those authors who do put in the time and effort).


----------



## Stephen M Holak (May 15, 2012)

I should sic my editor, Rebecca Dickson, on them.  She doesn't miss a speck of dust, and isn't shy about bashing you with your sloppyness.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

ellecasey said:


> You're posting in the writer's cafe and not the other parts of the forum I think you usually post in. Therefore, I have to think you believe the people here don't proofread their work. Sorry to disabuse you of that notion, but *most* of the writers who frequent this forum do in fact employ proofreaders, sometimes more than one proofreader.
> 
> Any book, indie- or traditionally-published has errors. It's inevitable. Some have more than others, depending on the skill of the proofreader and the budget of the author or the money budgeted by the publisher.
> 
> If you believe you would make a good proofreader and want to make a business of that, then perhaps you should consider it. In that case, you would post your resume here and your rates so that others might consider your expertise and experience. My best suggestion, though, would be to approach the writers you might want to have hire you in a way that doesn't suggest they don't care about the product they present to the reading public, and at all costs, avoid suggesting that they're "stupid" (your word, not mine.)


Actually, I posted here because I believed authors would have the best and most first hand knowledge of publishing. I thought you guys would know if the publishers have cut the editing/proofing staffs slightly or significantly or completely.

I've proofed before just for the enjoyment of doing it and had my name included in the acknowledgements of one book, completely unexpectedly on my part. I find the dumbing down of the American students very saddening and was just curious.

I have no idea what a fair rate would be and have no real resume applicable to that field but perhaps I will pursue it further.

I've emailed authors with proofs and sometimes get a response and sometimes nothing. I find that the most interesting and telling.

If I posted this in the wrong area or offended anyone I apologize. I'm just truly curious about the seeming increase in the number of errors I see.


----------



## PeggyI (Jan 9, 2011)

Anything touched by the hands of a human will have errors. No matter how hard we try, something will always slip through. Although there is no such thing as error-free, I have to agree that sometimes it seems no one was watching. Yes, all big publishers have gone through cutbacks, downsizing, rightsizing, mergers, and occasional fits of allowing the bean counters to run the show, but truthfully, if you pick up a book printed in the 20s, 50s, or 90s you will find varying numbers of errors. C'est la vie.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

You do away with editing and proofreading at your own peril.


----------



## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

PeggyI said:


> Anything touched by the hands of a human will have errors. No matter how hard we try, something will always slip through. Although there is no such thing as error-free, I have to agree that sometimes it seems no one was watching. Yes, all big publishers have gone through cutbacks, downsizing, rightsizing, mergers, and occasional fits of allowing the bean counters to run the show, but truthfully, if you pick up a book printed in the 20s, 50s, or 90s you will find varying numbers of errors. C'est la vie.


^^
This, plain and simple.


----------



## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

PeggyI said:


> Anything touched by the hands of a human will have errors. No matter how hard we try, something will always slip through. Although there is no such thing as error-free, I have to agree that sometimes it seems no one was watching. Yes, all big publishers have gone through cutbacks, downsizing, rightsizing, mergers, and occasional fits of allowing the bean counters to run the show, but truthfully, if you pick up a book printed in the 20s, 50s, or 90s you will find varying numbers of errors. C'est la vie.


That's why I got a thousand chimps to bang away at a typewriter for my book  No human intervention!


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2013)

There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect book. There has never been. Every book will have a handful of errors in it. In most cases, if the writing is good you won't notice it because the human mind has this wonderful capacity to auto-correct as it reads. In general, it isn't until a reader develops hyper-awareness of editing (for example, because the reader is now publishing and is self-editing, or is in fact a professional editor or proofreader) that you actually start to see the mistakes you use to ignore.

I can't tell you how many times I have reread an old favorite and noticed errors. These are books that were published over a decade (or more) ago. Books that I have read multiple times. But now, because I publish and edit, I see things I missed the first three or four times. I can shake my fist at the youngsters and say "Back in my day..." but you know, back in my day proofreaders were still missing 'brake' versus break and dropping commas.  I just didn't possess the hyper-awareness to see them.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't write or publish, I just notice things. I'm sure I don't see them all and doubt anyone does. I just notice a lot of them and it seems the amount is growing. Hence my curiosity if the amount of editing/proofing was being reduced and thereby causing the increase or if my awareness were just increasing. Along with that came the thought that perhaps I should begin offering proofing services.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

The indie authors I know use proofreaders. Sometimes an editor/proofreader in one, sometimes as two separate people.

The books I publish with trad publishers get: 3 rounds (minimum) with a developmental editor, then a round with a copy editor, then a round with a proofreader, and three production passes (as author, I see copy edited manuscript and first pages--sometimes I get second pages, especially if I press for it, but it's not usual). The copy editor and proofreader are often freelance. Sometimes the DEs and PEs are as well. I work as a freelance DE and PE for trad publishers. I haven't noticed any skipping of copy editing or proofreading in the last 10 years. I've seen in-house editorial staff slashed, though. But then they're just hired back as freelancers.

I have certainly seen indie books offered for sale on Amazon that haven't been touched by a proofreader. I don't buy/download those.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

1001nightspress said:


> I have certainly seen indie books offered for sale on Amazon that haven't been touched by a proofreader. I don't buy/download those.


As a reader, I don't either. Plenty of well-edited books for me to read, so why bother with those that are not properly presented.

As a writer, I feel sorry for books that have not been edited/proofread. It is just fodder for naysayers to criticize self-publishing yet again.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

PeggyI said:


> Anything touched by the hands of a human will have errors. No matter how hard we try, something will always slip through.


I was looking through a the first title I published which I've must have read through a dozen times by now. Found "his" instead of "he". 
Gremlins, I tell you!


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Man, I WISH it was a thing of the past. I'd be putting out a book a month like bam if that were the case.


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2013)

LDB said:


> I don't write or publish, I just notice things. I'm sure I don't see them all and doubt anyone does. I just notice a lot of them and it seems the amount is growing. Hence my curiosity if the amount of editing/proofing was being reduced and thereby causing the increase or if my awareness were just increasing. Along with that came the thought that perhaps I should begin offering proofing services.


If you *WANT * to offer proofreading services, then just say so. Hang out a virtual shingle and be done with it. But don't do so under the false pretenses that you are swooping down to save the unwashed masses from their own lack of editing.

You claim that a third of the books you read have errors in them. Maybe the problem isn't a lack of proofreading in the industry. Maybe the real problem is your selection process. A person who eats at McDonald's every day probably shouldn't complain about the lack of healthy food available.


----------



## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Proofreading is so 80s, dude.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

What Julie said--AND be sure that you're qualified and know what the process entails. Because it's more than just noticing a typo here and there. Those indies who choose not to have their books proofread are making a choice--I highly doubt that they have looked for proofreaders and were unable to find one, and therefore decided they had no choice but to publish without. So offering proofreading services doesn't mean you'll rid Amazon of un-proofread works. It means you'll be competing with the legions of other freelance proofreaders whose services are already being used by those who see the value of outside eyes.

I've recommended this book a lot, but can't think of any reason not to do so again:



A lot of the discussion there is for in-house editors, but it almost all applies to freelancers as well.


----------



## Teri Hall (Feb 10, 2013)

swolf said:


> Proofreading is so 80s, dude.


----------



## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

swolf said:


> Proofreading is so 80s, dude.


_I_ remember that meeting! I wanted to keep proofreading, but nooooo. The rest of you decided to ditch it.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

LDB said:


> I just notice a lot of them and it seems the amount is growing. Hence my curiosity if the amount of editing/proofing was being reduced and thereby causing the increase or if my awareness were just increasing.


It is my understanding that, yes, the major publishers have cut their editing staffs. My guess is with the lack of emphasis on grammar and punctuation in today's schools, the pool of people who could be superb proofreaders is shrinking.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't believe I've said anything about swooping in to save anyone. I believe I came in making an observation on what I've noticed and asking relevant questions. That was my intention anyway. I'm not sure how I ruffled feathers in so doing.


----------



## Austin_Briggs (Aug 21, 2011)

LDB said:


> I don't believe I've said anything about swooping in to save anyone. I believe I came in making an observation on what I've noticed and asking relevant questions. That was my intention anyway. I'm not sure how I ruffled feathers in so doing.


Hi LDB, you didn't ruffle my feathers. It's just this is a sensitive topic here (we could've fooled you, eh) and sometimes writers are targets of folks who come lamenting poor proofreading only to turn around and offer their services.

I agree with your observation. The number of mistakes seems to be growing. I mentioned before that I just finished a Young Adult novel published by Penguin and found at least 6-7 seriously obvious typos. I don't want to even mention the dribble that some clueless "authors" publish, and don't get me started on the internet marketers who use Kindle as just another affiliate sales opportunity with their cheaply outsourced texts.

I know only one way to fight this: I always read the samples before buying books.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, 

For those who question LDB's motives (Julie  ), he joined the then-KindleBoards almost exactly one hour after I did...on October 27, 2008.  Before there was a Book Bazaar, before there was a Writers' Café....I hardly think he was so prescient as to join so that five years later he could start a proofreading business. I've known him as a member since that time, and I assure you, he's totally up front about what he's thinking.    Actually, kinda like you are, Julie.  

As for errors, I can't say I see more in the Indie books that I read than I do in the trad pubbed books.  What I was seeing a lot of, for awhile, were OCR errors in books that were converted badly.  But not so much any more.

Betsy


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Well, proofreaders are needed everywhere:

"The 33 most embarrassing spelling mistakes on education-related signs."
http://happyplace.someecards.com/3761/the-best-spelling-mistakes-on-education-related-signs

Proofreaders are also needed in the writing industry, as the OP has bemoaned. TQ for the reminder to...









http://pinterest.com/pin/353884483190330396/

And to...









http://pinterest.com/pin/353884483190330392/

But not just proofreaders, right? We also need copyeditors to remove ambiguities:









http://pinterest.com/pin/353884483190223413/

And structural/macro/developmental editors for something like:









http://pinterest.com/pin/353884483189977974/


----------



## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

If I ever get the chance to grade papers where text messages are allowed, I'm docking every time there's not a comma between the two F's in BFF.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I assure you, he's totally up front about what he's thinking.
> Betsy


Enough to get into semi-serious trouble at times.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LDB said:


> Enough to get into semi-serious trouble at times.


 

You're not the only one....

Betsy


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, I meant in trouble here on KB, and I've eaten and slept since then so I don't recall for certain but it might have even been with/from you. I'm not sure who I got in trouble with though, or why, other than I'm sure it was for commenting bluntly on something.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

LDB said:


> Well, I meant in trouble here on KB, and I've eaten and slept since then so I don't recall for certain but it might have even been with/from you. I'm not sure who I got in trouble with though, or why, other than I'm sure it was for commenting bluntly on something.


I have noticed something about the books, short to medium length stories seem to have the most errors.
Now do know that a couple of weeks ago, at least 140 short stories went online in a hurry. There was a challenge by an author to create and publish a book in 8 hours. Some were great, some are readable and some are "couldn't you have taken 5 minutes to run through the grammar check in your word processing program." One that I had to give up on was just all over the place. 
I did go into reading all the ones offered free knowing that I would probably find some errors due to the time constraint.


----------



## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

LDB said:


> What happened to editing and proofreading? I'm reading a DTB at the moment along with an ebook. Both have errors. I haven't kept track specifically but I suspect that at least 1/3 of what I read has errors, some works having multiple errors. Do publishers no longer employ people to find and correct those?


Sure. Lots of people. As I understand it, the big boys have spent the last few decades almost completely outsourcing these tasks to freelancers, but they still do them on every book and I think the quality has at worst declined only marginally. (And you probably are referring more to copy editing where typos and such created by the author are corrected rather than what trade publishing proofreaders do which is compare the typeset version to the original document for inconsistences introduced in the typesetting process. Self-publishers have almost universally recast the word to mean light copy editing or typo hunting.)



> I've heard that schools are now accepting cellular texting by students in their papers and tests. Have we become that stupid and therefore there are no more proofreaders and editors either? Or am I missing the boat by not making money finding the mistakes others are missing? If that's the case, where and how do I apply?


I hope your school anecdote is urban myth, but I can't speak to it and it's a red herring anyway. I'm not sure there's a shortage of proofreaders out there. As others have mentioned, it's more about who is or isn't willing to pay for the service at all and how much. Books never reach a state of perfection including those from the most obsessive publishers--they're just worked on until reasonable resources are exhausted and then they go out into the world in whatever state they're in. This hasn't changed fundamentally in our lifetimes.



> If that's the case, where and how do I apply?


It isn't, but if you disagree you could start by PMing me a message something like "I'd love to proofread you writing in exchange for nothing more than a free copy, and if I like it, I'll even write a review on Amazon!!!"

(The three exclamations are required so I know how enthusiastic you are about it.)


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

I guess I was originally meaning copy editing more than proofreading and just didn't know what to call it. I know of cases where teachers are no longer allowed to grade with red ink or pencil because that red color is harsh and hurtful to sensitive little feelings. It isn't a stretch to me at least to think text message grammar is acceptable too.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes, many publishing houses have cut editing staff.  No, I don't know of any that have done away completely with copy editing or proofreading.

When my writing partner and I produce a book on our own, I do preliminary copy edits. (I can spot typos/misspellings/missing words very well.)  Then we go two rounds with a developmental editor who also handles CEs, and we hire two proofreaders to catch lingering mistakes.

Some self-publishers have more labor-intensive processes, some don't.  It's an individual decision.  My recommendation is to read samples before you buy--nine times out of ten, you'll be able to spot poorly-edited work.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I have noticed something about the books, short to medium length stories seem to have the most errors.
> Now do know that a couple of weeks ago, at least 140 short stories went online in a hurry. There was a challenge by an author to create and publish a book in 8 hours. Some were great, some are readable and some are "couldn't you have taken 5 minutes to run through the grammar check in your word processing program." One that I had to give up on was just all over the place.
> I did go into reading all the ones offered free knowing that I would probably find some errors due to the time constraint.


I agree with all of the above. I didn't read any of the challenge books due to a lack of time, but time constraints can be an issue for any writer trying to produce their best work.

What I don't get is why the shorter works are not edited as much. The shorter the works, the cheaper the editing esp. when editors charge by the hour or page, depending on what type of editing.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

donnajherren said:


> Some self-publishers have more labor-intensive processes, some don't. It's an individual decision. My recommendation is to read samples before you buy--nine times out of ten, you'll be able to spot poorly-edited work.


Absolutely agree with this. I don't buy anything before I sample them. If the writing is poor on the first page, I'm out of there. As an avid reader, I don't have a choice nor the luxury of time. I have many books in my TBR box that are well-written. I read those. Once editing is done, you can hardly tell the difference between selfpub and tradpub.


----------



## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I have noticed something about the books, short to medium length stories seem to have the most errors.


That's not too surprising. The market for them tends to be smaller, thus the sales lower, thus the available budget to produce them miniscule. You also might be seeing more rank amateurs producing them since it's quicker and patience does not seem to be a virtue among that demographic.


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect book. There has never been. Every book will have a handful of errors in it. In most cases, if the writing is good you won't notice it because the human mind has this wonderful capacity to auto-correct as it reads. In general, it isn't until a reader develops hyper-awareness of editing (for example, because the reader is now publishing and is self-editing, or is in fact a professional editor or proofreader) that you actually start to see the mistakes you use to ignore.
> 
> I can't tell you how many times I have reread an old favorite and noticed errors. These are books that were published over a decade (or more) ago. Books that I have read multiple times. But now, because I publish and edit, I see things I missed the first three or four times. I can shake my fist at the youngsters and say "Back in my day..." but you know, back in my day proofreaders were still missing 'brake' versus break and dropping commas. I just didn't possess the hyper-awareness to see them.


This. A thousand times this. I recently read one of my old favorites, perhaps for the fifth time, though the last time I read it was probably ten years ago. I picked up four or five typos this time around, but the comma abuse made me want to cry.
_He shook his head, sadly._
_I was eleven years old, and clearing tables in my father's restaurant._
_I dropped to one knee, as I spotted the table, and so avoided the knife that came whistling at my head._

Not a page went by without commas being abused like this. The sad thing is it makes it hard to just read for pleasure. Because we (editors, proofreaders, etc.) train our brains to look for that sort of thing, and once you do, it's hard to turn off.


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hi,
> 
> For those who question LDB's motives (***** ), he joined the then-KindleBoards almost exactly one hour after I did...on October 27, 2008. Before there was a Book Bazaar, before there was a Writers' Café....I hardly think he was so prescient as to join so that five years later he could start a proofreading business. I've known him as a member since that time, and I assure you, he's totally up front about what he's thinking.  Actually, kinda like you are, *****.


Fair enough. But just like you often (rightfully) remind writers that there is a big forum outside of the cafe and we should spend some time there, it would be useful if perhaps he had spend some time here in the Cafe actually reading the ten thousand threads on editing and proofreading before coming in making a post that essentially implied that the entire educational system is shot and most people publishing don't have enough sense to proofread. Particularly on the heels of the thread about the woman leaving bad reviews about editing and then trying to sell editing services to the authors she left the bad reviews for. His initial posts were ugly reinforcements of bad stereotypes that the writers around here work very hard to overcome.

And like I said, if he wants to hang a virtual shingle, he should. I'm all about competition in the marketplace and I'm sure he would find plenty of folks interested in his services if he is as good as he says he is at spotting errors.


----------



## FrankColes (Feb 22, 2012)

When I began formatting ebooks I practiced by reformatting the Classics. What did I find. Errors. Oodles of them.
When I published through trad houses, the editor, copyeditor and proof reader added errors each and every time and alternated style guides.
When I edited through trad houses the publisher added errors through poor processes and too many long lunches.
When I self-pubbed on Smashwords their meat-grinder added so many errors, I personally messaged Mark Coker and told him off.
When I hand-craft my final copyedits, layouts and proofs I have only myself to blame. Damn it!

Now...can you spot the deliberate typo above?


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

FrankColes said:


> When I began formatting ebooks I practiced by reformatting the Classics. What did I find. Errors. Oodles of them.
> When I published through trad houses, the editor, copyeditor and proof reader added errors each and every time and alternated style guides.
> When I edited through trad houses the publisher added errors through poor processes and too many long lunches.
> When I self-pubbed on Smashwords their meat-grinder added so many errors, I personally messaged Mark Coker and told him off.
> ...


There are so many errors in your post that I'm not certain which are deliberate.


----------



## FrankColes (Feb 22, 2012)

Lynn McNamee said:


> There are so many errors in your post that I'm not certain which are deliberate.


Only one is not deliberate!  Typo and not typos was a test itself.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

FrankColes said:


> Only one is not deliberate!  Typo and not typos was a test itself.


How are we supposed to know what you know and don't know to decide which is deliberate?

Making "copy editor" one word could be a typo.

Not putting a question mark after "find" could be a typo.

Making "proofreader" two words could be a typo.

Hyphenating "handcraft" could be a typo.

I could keep going. This is a ridiculous test.


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

It is true that a few errors will slip through no matter how many times a book is proofread. Nevertheless, I will make two observations about those errors. 1- I, too, have noticed an increasing number in traditionally published books. 2- Self-published books seem to fall into two categories. One is as carefully vetted as traditionally published books. The other category contains many mistakes, either from rush to publish or lack of knowledge.

As for the educational system, tight grammar, careful sentence structure, correct punctuation, and proper spelling are not drilled into students as they once were. Perhaps the electronic world shares some blame; perhaps the amount of subject material required in schools is partially to blame. I suspect somewhere along the line the 'powers that be' questioned the value of the amount of time spent on writing skills. There has been a change. Is it good or bad? That's a matter of opinion. Yes, I do have my opinion and you, no doubt, have yours.

One last thing: Why would anyone have trouble with a member venting their personal thoughts on writing?


----------



## Saffron (May 22, 2013)

FrankColes said:


> When I began formatting ebooks I practiced by reformatting the Classics. What did I find. Errors. Oodles of them.
> When I published through trad houses, the editor, copyeditor and proof reader added errors each and every time and alternated style guides.
> When I edited through trad houses the publisher added errors through poor processes and too many long lunches.
> When I self-pubbed on Smashwords their meat-grinder added so many errors, I personally messaged Mark Coker and told him off.
> ...


You should have a question mark after "What did I find?"

Is that the one you meant, or should I look for another?


----------



## George Applegate (Jan 23, 2013)

FrankColes said:


> Now...can you spot the deliberate typo above?


"Typo" should be plural?


----------



## AworkInProgress (Sep 5, 2013)

I find it a little disheartening, both to see posts like this that reinforce some of the stigmas associated with self publishing and the fact that there are plenty of published works that themselves reinforce those stigmas. Just the other day I was doing a google search for something ( I can't recall) and one of the first posts that came up was a thread from the Amazon customer discussion boards. The entire thread was someone asking if there were ways to avoid indie authors. 

It also makes me wonder if readers are utilizing the samples available to them before they buy?


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

D.L. Sharp said:


> It also makes me wonder if readers are utilizing the samples available to them before they buy?


I think a lot of readers have had to learn to do that.

I used to go to bookstores and stock up on books by reading the backs. I never bothered opening the books. If the description sounded good, I bought it.

Sure, I occasionally bought some duds, at least in my opinion, but I never once purchased something that was illegible.

These days, I've learned to never buy without sampling. Even then, I occasionally end up with some books I can't read. I think some authors are getting their first chapters edited in order to trick readers into buying their books.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

D.L. Sharp said:


> I find it a little disheartening, both to see posts like this that reinforce some of the stigmas associated with self publishing and the fact that there are plenty of published works that themselves reinforce those stigmas. Just the other day I was doing a google search for something ( I can't recall) and one of the first posts that came up was a thread from the Amazon customer discussion boards. The entire thread was someone asking if there were ways to avoid indie authors.


Evidently I'm one of the few. I didn't see anything in the OP that made me think it was directed only at indies, and it didn't put my nose out of joint. Maybe that's because I've read some of those threads on Amazon spewing real vitriol toward indies, and I've had the pleasure of some of those people coming after me in particular. Subtle doesn't get my blood flowing any more, but I still see no insult in the OP.

Out in the vast non-KBoards world, many readers want Amazon to stop accepting indie books. Knowing they won't get that, they want a way to filter us out of their search results. They spend *hours *in those threads lamenting that it's not the prices, we waste their *time *with our inferior crap. They don't want to be bothered sampling or taking any steps of their own to avoid us - they want it done for them.

I also see a lot of posts from readers who aren't particularly anti-indie who admit they never sample. If the cover and blurb appeal, they simply download. Maybe that's changed now that it's harder to return a book after more than 7 days has passed, but somehow I doubt it.

As to the sample being better than the rest of the book - I always thought that came about because many who pursue traditional publishing polish the beginning much more than any other part of the book. Contests only require a story summary and the first couple of chapters. Editors and agents often ask for partials of x number of pages or chapters from the beginning. Nowadays the fact that the sample on Amazon is the first 10% may enter into it, but surely any indie who deliberately produces a good beginning and error-filled middle and end knows not only Amazon's liberal return policy, but the old saying, "Fool me once...."

Where books usually fail for me is in plotting and character development, things that can't be judged in a sample, although I still sample. I did sample in the good old days of book stores. I'd read the first page of any book I was considering, something from the middle, a little dialog, and the end. It took the Kindle to cure me of reading the end first, a self-defense mechanism I started after _Gone With The Wind._


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

ellenoc said:


> Evidently I'm one of the few. I didn't see anything in the OP that made me think it was directed only at indies, and it didn't put my nose out of joint. Maybe that's because I've read some of those threads on Amazon spewing real vitriol toward indies, and I've had the pleasure of some of those people coming after me in particular. Subtle doesn't get my blood flowing any more, but I still see no insult in the OP.
> 
> Out in the vast non-KBoards world, many readers want Amazon to stop accepting indie books. Knowing they won't get that, they want a way to filter us out of their search results. They spend *hours *in those threads lamenting that it's not the prices, we waste their *time *with our inferior crap. They don't want to be bothered sampling or taking any steps of their own to avoid us - they want it done for them.
> 
> ...


Even here on the how to pick a book thread: I have seen it done by blurbs, reviews, samples, must be over $5(usually with the words cheaper books are worthless tacked on), must be published by certain people, must be exactly x number of pages, written by big name (usually with because unknowns write garbage tacked on).

Not that it has anything to do with this but I have seen how to pick a yarn say almost the same thing.

The way I see it is I go by blurb. Reviews are hit or miss. Samples: only if the book actually costs money. (forgot that one yesterday and had to return a book today. Pretty sure it was a trad book by the author), price does not matter, (although my cheap self prefers free), published by who cares, (I mean just because whoever replaced Bennett Cerf likes a book does not mean I will like a book.), not picky about page length unless they want an arm and a leg for 5 pages then nope, authors don't matter either (just because 1,654,879 people fell for E L James does not mean I like E L James.)

Oh and genres really don't matter except I try to avoid historical fiction and any christian.

Oh heck just throw me a cheap book and I will try to read it.


----------



## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Am I the only person who doesn't know what a DTB is?


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Fredster said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't know what a DTB is?


Probably. 

It's an acronym that presumably stands for 'dead tree book' and is used -- often disparagingly -- of paper editions.

I, having nothing at all against paper book, prefer to think it stands for 'dear traditional book'.


----------



## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Ah, thanks. All I was finding online was "Don't text back," and I knew that wasn't it.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Fredster said:


> Ah, thanks. All I was finding online was "Don't text back," and I knew that wasn't it.


Since you are new around these parts: TBR is to be read. 
Oh and welcome to the Pool. Just watch out for the erotic authors, they tend to get kinky.


----------



## AworkInProgress (Sep 5, 2013)

Fredster said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't know what a DTB is?


I'll be honest I had to google it.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I guess I was originally meaning copy editing more than proofreading and just didn't know what to call it. I know of cases where teachers are no longer allowed to grade with red ink or pencil because that red color is harsh and hurtful to sensitive little feelings. It isn't a stretch to me at least to think text message grammar is acceptable too.


Text messaging is changing the language. No big deal.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Since you are new around these parts: TBR is to be read.


Which translates roughly to: 'yeah, no. I'm actually never going to read this.'


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Text messaging is changing the language. No big deal.


My 'elders' were incensed when we (as teenagers) began 'changing' the English language to fit our needs or styles.

Now as an 'elder' (40th birthday was two weeks ago), I get kind of rage-y about stupid textspeak and the laziness of the young peoples when it comes to preserving the English language.

Haha, not really. It does irritate me, but I realize that language evolves over time (or devolves, depending on your view of it).

Try to read some 'English' from the waaaay old days. It looks like a foreign language. I've no doubt that some dudes with broadswords and maces would love nothing more than to step into a time machine and bash in our heads for 'ruining' their beautiful language.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

AngryGames said:


> Try to read some 'English' from the waaaay old days. It looks like a foreign language. I've no doubt that some dudes with broadswords and maces would love nothing more than to step into a time machine and bash in our heads for 'ruining' their beautiful language.


I remember reading Chaucer in the "original" English. That was a long, long time ago. It was a struggle, but how I loved it, once I understood it. 

To a certain extent, I can handle text-speak -- and modern culture in general -- changing the language, but I'll balk at random capitalization, improper use of apostrophes, and the rampant misuse of homonyms.

As to the OP, I did wonder if it wasn't a round-about way to advertise for proofreading services, because we have to be on guard against people who may try to take advantage of us (like the woman who was giving bad reviews, then offering her editing services).


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

There's always been 'formal' language used for important written stuff -- and informal language used in regular conversations and less important written stuff. I knew a guy in Hawaii who was completely bilingual: when talking to his bosses (mostly mainland Navy folks) he used perfectly acceptable English. When talking with locals, his pidgen was a thick as I've ever heard.

BUT -- it is true that copy editors/proofreaders are becoming scarcer. Most print newspapers, for example, have reduced their ranks -- not usually firing people but just by attrition and not re-hiring to fill the position. So where there used to be one or two for each section of the paper, now there are one or two who have to copy edit the WHOLE issue. Daily. And Sunday papers are even fatter.  I've no doubt it's similar for the big publishing houses.

I personally don't get too bent out of shape about an oddly placed comma or unusual usage in an otherwise engaging and well written book.

I will put down a book that seems to have been typed up for a 10th grade English assignment and never proof-read before handing it in to the teacher.

I'm less likely to stick with a book where the use of language is 'cutting edge'. . . .mostly because when I read for fun, I just don't want to work that hard. But if the story seems decent, I'll probably tough it out for a while. If I do, I'll usually find that after a short period, my brain has learned to read it without any trouble. (I had this exact experience with Chaucer, too, when I took a course in college. By the end of the first week, I barely needed to look at the 'notes' that explained things.)

But what will bother me even more is content anomalies: I got a book once that was meant to be a story about a fisherman's kid in England in the 1100's who's kidnapped by pirates or something. At one point, very early on, he's talking of going home from school and reading his father's adventure books.  I'm not sure that author ever _finished_ tenth grade!


----------



## robertsloan2 (Sep 12, 2013)

LDB said:


> What happened to editing and proofreading? I'm reading a DTB at the moment along with an ebook. Both have errors. I haven't kept track specifically but I suspect that at least 1/3 of what I read has errors, some works having multiple errors. Do publishers no longer employ people to find and correct those? I've heard that schools are now accepting cellular texting by students in their papers and tests. Have we become that stupid and therefore there are no more proofreaders and editors either? Or am I missing the boat by not making money finding the mistakes others are missing? If that's the case, where and how do I apply?


I think for indie, it probably relates to the author's resources and experience and skill. But this caught my eye because I've seen it happen in pro paperback publishing and hardcover editions. I have been in a writer's group where a wel known professional was screaming and banging her head on her desk because the publishing house's proofreader and copy editor put typos into her book that she hadn't made in the galleys.

I went back and read some old favorite SF and fantasy - famous names, first editions, big blockbusters in their time. I laughed my head off because the first page of one of these groundbreaking works that I remembered with such joy had about 4 major typos in it. On the first page. I went through my older books out of curiosity.

Truth is, the major publishers go through cycles of overworking editors, copyeditors and proofreaders. It depends on what the industry is doing and what the money people allocate per book. It's not the author. Authors are usually driven round the bend on it. Then you go indie and you're responsible for that, yourself.

It takes multiple proofreaders and things get through. Spell check errors are the most frequent. They turn up hilarious autocorrect stuff, changing what the word is. That one's endemic to every medium I've read since spell check became popular.

THere are answers to your question and they happen at all levels. Because even the most grammar-crazy fussy author I've ever known has put something through multiple beta reads all of whom were by proofreaders (this is the grammarian of one of my writing groups). And then on the umptieth read by the next one - there's errors none of the rest saw.

It's actually a difficult task finding them and no one is perfect at doing it. Even those who come closest aren't. The best way to do it is multiple, lots and lots of different critiques because fresh eyes will see the one you missed. No one is immune.

But they are much more common when something's rushed to print for some external reason. It's one of the most labor intensive areas of the craft by needing more time and other people who need to be paid for it. So if the budget's tight or the schedule's tight, it'll come up with more of those. Once I understood that, it bugged me less as a reader.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> BUT -- it is true that copy editors/proofreaders are becoming scarcer. Most print newspapers, for example, have reduced their ranks -- not usually firing people but just by attrition and not re-hiring to fill the position. So where there used to be one or two for each section of the paper, now there are one or two who have to copy edit the WHOLE issue. Daily. And Sunday papers are even fatter. I've no doubt it's similar for the big publishing houses.


The changes affect more than books and newspapers. There was a time not too long ago when people wrote stuff by hand, then gave it to a secretary for typing. The secretary did the proofreading and editing. Now so many people type up their own stuff on a computer that corporate communications are much more fun to read than they used to be.

Texting and email show the same pattern working. People who would never have written anything are now texting all day. The language will change to meet the needs of the users.


----------



## Guest (Sep 12, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> The changes affect more than books and newspapers. There was a time not too long ago when people wrote stuff by hand, then gave it to a secretary for typing. The secretary did the proofreading and editing. Now so many people type up their own stuff on a computer that corporate communications are much more fun to read than they used to be.


Combine this with "reply all" and you can lose an entire afternoon!


----------



## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Here are a few gems that stand out in my memory.

1) A teacher was chastising a student over missing materials. She said, "If you had went to the store last week like I told you to...." She was the English teacher.

2) At the same school, a teacher had a door-size, laminated banner at the entrance to her classroom. The banner read "Through this door passes students of distinction."

3) A prospectus from Fidelity spelled capital incorrectly (capitol appreciation).

4) A college student once wrote me a term paper arguing that people who were in deep commas (sic) should be allowed to die with dignity. In my margin comment, I noted that I'd skipped a period before, but I'd never been in deep commas.

5) Bungled newspaper headlines are legion, but my favorite was this one. "As part of a move to cut costs, UC Berkeley hires a female chancellor for the first time in history." If you read the article, you discovered that her _job mandate_ was to oversee cost-cutting.

6) In the early days of Word's spell checker, a well-known San Francisco restaurant put a special Valentine's day menu in their window advertising _melon with prostitute_. Seems Word thought that was the best substitute for prosciutto.

As for me, I proof multiple times, I use eagle-eyed betas, and I pay editors and proofreaders to check my work. And stuff still slips through.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

LDB said:


> I haven't kept track specifically but I suspect that at least 1/3 of what I read has errors, some works having multiple errors. Do publishers no longer employ people to find and correct those?


Are you aware that anyone can now publish to Amazon independently (indie), without using a publisher?

I suspect you were not aware of this. Most of us here in the KB Writers' Cafe do hire editors, but many many many people who self publish skip what you are calling proofreading.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I suspect you were not aware of this. Most of us here in the KB Writers' Cafe do hire editors, but many many many people who self publish skip what you are calling proofreading.


In some cases, line editors also do proofreading so that might have already been bundled into the service. I was looking for a proofreader but I found that it saves me time and money when the line editor and beta readers can also proofread.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Linguists eager to be exemplary relativists espouse a conceit that says any old gibberish people write reflects a "choice" they've made to "adapt" the language to their needs-as if cavemen (sorry, cave-persons) had a choice between grunts and the Queen's English, but chose the former because it better suited their cave-dwelling lifestyle. Of course, a position like that does make perfect sense if your primary concern is pandering to people.

Anyway, texting doesn't represent a decline of the language as such-let alone an evolution of it. Texting talk is just an amalgam of abbreviations and telescoping-things that have been done for centuries. The problem people really have with texting-talk is the violation of social norms that occurs when a person uses texting-speak instead of formal prose. Text-speaking to your boss, for example, is like addressing him as "dude." People only call it a decline in language because we lump language proficiency together with knowing what level of language is appropriate in a given social situation.

Poor or no proofing-which has obviously increased-is a plain old decline in publishing standards, not in the language. My newspaper is filled with gross WTF-level errors every day. Someone even missed a note to the copyeditor in one edition (or the copyeditor had been fired and the writer didn't realize it, so the piece went straight to print). The text written by a well-regarded pundit read "&#8230;the MP from Toronto-Danforth [CHECK!] said that&#8230;" Hilarious in one sense, I guess, but irritating in another. I'm actually paying for the thing.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

WHDean said:


> Linguists eager to be exemplary relativists espouse a conceit that says any old gibberish people write reflects a "choice" they've made to "adapt" the language to their needs-as if cavemen (sorry, cave-persons) had a choice between grunts and the Queen's English, but chose the former because it better suited their cave-dwelling lifestyle. Of course, a position like that does make perfect sense if your primary concern is pandering to people.
> 
> Anyway, texting doesn't represent a decline of the language as such-let alone an evolution of it. Texting talk is just an amalgam of abbreviations and telescoping-things that have been done for centuries. The problem people really have with texting-talk is the violation of social norms that occurs when a person uses texting-speak instead of formal prose. Text-speaking to your boss, for example, is like addressing him as "dude." People only call it a decline in language because we lump language proficiency together with knowing what level of language is appropriate in a given social situation.
> 
> Poor or no proofing-which has obviously increased-is a plain old decline in publishing standards, not in the language. My newspaper is filled with gross WTF-level errors every day. Someone even missed a note to the copyeditor in one edition (or the copyeditor had been fired and the writer didn't realize it, so the piece went straight to print). The text written by a well-regarded pundit read "&#8230;the MP from Toronto-Danforth [CHECK!] said that&#8230;" Hilarious in one sense, I guess, but irritating in another. I'm actually paying for the thing.


Do not get me started on newspaper errors. Also the circulation dept did not think delivering the ads was important.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Are you aware that anyone can now publish to Amazon independently (indie), without using a publisher?
> 
> I suspect you were not aware of this. Most of us here in the KB Writers' Cafe do hire editors, but many many many people who self publish skip what you are calling proofreading.


This might be a case of a person having not read the whole thread. . . . . LDB is a long time member. He's been around as long as ME. . . he is WELL aware of the indie publishing 'scene'. Betsy noted as much as well, earlier in the thread.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

As a dumb ole truck driver, although now just a fleet owner and no longer driving, I have to plead partial ignorance. Apparently copy editing fits more closely with what I've noticed than proofreading but I wasn't aware of what to call it.

I like to read. I like reading (at least almost) error free writing most of all. Having enjoyed my Kindle for several years now and through it many more reading opportunities than I had or would have had with printed books I posed my question.

I did not start this to solicit work in this area. I have done so a couple of times for a friend and enjoyed doing so, in part because I got to read his work sooner than if I'd had to wait for it to be published. I have no delusions of perfection. I'm sure at times I miss something that would be screamingly obvious to someone else. I do have delusions of pdg (pretty darn good).

Personally I believe we are in a decline as far as education is concerned. Along with that I believe we are seeing a decline in standards and expectations. I am NOT suggesting that applies specifically to anyone here but I did and do wonder if it applies to publishing houses in general and as also mentioned to newspapers etc. as well.

If my ponderings offended anyone I apologize as that was not at all my intent. I just wondered if the gradual decline I perceived was seen by anyone else and if so what were the cause(s).

Some have suggested I give it a try and list my areas of interest. I like Clancy, Flynn, Morrison, Grafton, WEB Griffin, most things WW2 related and similar. If it fits on a Kindle and you'd like a different set of eyes on it I'll give it a try as a few have suggested.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

LDB said:


> As a dumb ole truck driver, although now just a fleet owner and no longer driving, I have to plead partial ignorance. Apparently copy editing fits more closely with what I've noticed than proofreading but I wasn't aware of what to call it.
> 
> I like to read. I like reading (at least almost) error free writing most of all. Having enjoyed my Kindle for several years now and through it many more reading opportunities than I had or would have had with printed books I posed my question.
> 
> ...


Be careful what you ask for. You could wind up with bloody eyes and a stripped gear brain.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LDB said:


> As a dumb ole truck driver, although now just a fleet owner and no longer driving, I have to plead partial ignorance. Apparently copy editing fits more closely with what I've noticed than proofreading but I wasn't aware of what to call it.


Most copy or line editors are perfectly capable of proofreading as they go along. So, hiring a proofreader per se is probably not an economical move for most writer-publishers when it's easier to bundle the service and hire a copy editor who can do more than just proofread a galley copy. After all, you might need to hire that copy editor anyway before you get to the final proofreading. We're not even talking about macro or substantive editors here, only copy editors. For macro editors, I look for someone who has at least 20 years of professional editorial experience before I hire her.

If you're thinking of proofreading as a service to writers, I recommend you check out some proofreading books from the library and go over all your grammar, language, syntax, usage, etc. I use the Chicago Manual of Style but others might use something else. Also helpful is Strunk & White's classic Elements of Style.

But perhaps instead of offering proofreading, you might consider offering to be a beta reader instead. That is less stringent in its requirements and comes with fewer obligations. Usually the writer will provide you a questionnaire regarding his manuscript, and you can just answer those. And as you read you will find typos that are questionable and you can make the writer aware of those. It would be a good neutral ground to help writers, if that is your intention.

As both a reader and writer, I see the benefits of many eyes, but even so, I select my beta readers and editors very carefully. However, I'm always grateful whenever someone points out a typo in my writing that had been missed after the 10th pass.

IMO, you'll find that writers are happy to be informed of mismatching eye color or wrong spouse names (yikes) or stray typesetting marks in their books. But writers are probably not so delighted to be scolded like little kids. We all work very hard. If you read some of the other threads, you can see that some writers go without food and sleep and... some even go without baths for days (the shocking tabloid thread on who last the longest exists on KB!) all for the sake of completing their masterpiece manuscripts for the readers. They work hard, and should be complimented for their diligence. Though not necessarily for their hygiene (you know who you are).

So have mercy on the poor writers trying to make a living. Send them food. And soap.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

The ones I did so far were on Kindle. I never scolded. I emailed something like "loc 385 their not there?" or "loc 818 he said turn right not he said he turn right?" or similar, always asking not telling.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LDB said:


> The ones I did so far were on Kindle. I never scolded. I emailed something like "loc 385 their not there?" or "loc 818 he said turn right not he said he turn right?" or similar, always asking not telling.


Fair enough. I was only trying to help.

BTW since you are an observant reader, have you considered writing? All writers began as readers.









http://www.pinterest.com/pin/353884483190285062/


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

You weren't just trying to help, you were helping and I appreciate it. Now and then I think about writing but sanity usually returns rather quickly. I'm afraid I don't have even a fraction of the patience required.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LDB said:


> You weren't just trying to help, you were helping and I appreciate it. Now and then I think about writing but sanity usually returns rather quickly. I'm afraid I don't have even a fraction of the patience required.


Thank you, too. Your post is a reminder to me that writers should do their best to produce excellent work. So I will take my time to polish my manuscripts before I publish them.

Are you referring to a full-length novel between 80K-100K words? That will take time. It took me 3 years of part-time writing to produce 100K words, and then another 14 years to do 3 complete rewrites. And I'm not ready for it to be published yet! I'm doing another complete rewrite. Don't do it the way I did it. I'm slow. It's killing my career to do so many rewrites. But it only took me about 3-6 hours tops to write and edit a 6K word short story. I wrote it in one pass, one draft, and I'm totally satisfied with it.

If you type 1000-2000 words an hour, it doesn't take long to write. What takes time, IMO, is the research. It took me 2 years to research a historical era, and I haven't finished writing that novel yet.

If you write a novella which is between 20K-40K (actually 40K words make a novel) or a serial with each episode only 5K-10K words, that's doable, is it not?

The beauty of self-publishing is that you set your publication/production schedule, and you determine the length of your writing. There are no "gatekeepers" (literary agents, traditional pubishers) to tell you that a 40K novel is too short, or that they can't accept your 30-page short story. You get to decide. Set the price accordingly, of course, out of respect for your readers.



LDB said:


> As a dumb ole truck driver, although now just a fleet owner and no longer driving, I have to plead partial ignorance. Apparently copy editing fits more closely with what I've noticed than proofreading but I wasn't aware of what to call it.


IMO you should leverage your experience. You could write about a truck driver who is really a covert somebody (can you tell I write thrillers LOL) -- think Clancy, Flynn, Thor, the rest of your list of authors. OK also Baldacci, Finder, etc. Seriously. So your undercover truck driver goes from place to place and solves homeland security crimes. That reminds me of Jack Reacher. Except with a twist. Your MC is really a truck driver too. Jack Reacher is not - he has no driver's license, remember? Leverage your experience.



LDB said:


> Some have suggested I give it a try and list my areas of interest. I like Clancy, Flynn, Morrison, Grafton, WEB Griffin, most things WW2 related and similar. If it fits on a Kindle and you'd like a different set of eyes on it I'll give it a try as a few have suggested.


I read all of Clancy's books back in the 90s. Are you referring to Vince Flynn? Good writer.









http://www.pinterest.com/pin/353884483190412954/

Edited: P.S. Cinisajoy -- OK OK I'm logging out now. I know, I know. I should be writing.


----------



## Louis Shalako (Apr 13, 2011)

Without proofreaders and other help, I have to read all my own stuff, generally 10-12 times. Amazon now has spell-check, and recently I published a couple of stories where I saw this feature. The first one had no errors and the other reported two. When I checked those, they were proper names or made-up words. Even so, small mistakes will inevitably creep in.

If there are enough of them, we tend to notice and remember.


----------



## LDB (Oct 28, 2008)

Yes, Vince Flynn. I like how Ryan handles things. And how Crais has Joe Pike handle things.


----------



## FrankColes (Feb 22, 2012)

Lynn McNamee said:


> How are we supposed to know what you know and don't know to decide which is deliberate?
> 
> Making "copy editor" one word could be a typo.
> 
> ...


Absolutely!!! I was once asked to compile a style guide for a publisher, the thing I realised then was that grammar, spelling and style are ultimately changeable, all any creator should aim for is _consistency_ in how their output is presented.

 I love that smiley btw!


----------

