# Amazon announces Kindle Worlds - Legit Fan Fiction



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh, boy. This is huge. 

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/05/22/amazon-unveils-kindle-worlds-publishing-platform-to-help-aspiring-fan-fiction-writers-sell-their-work/

Original press release:

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1823219&highlight

Amazon landing site:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421



> Get ready for Kindle Worlds, a place for you to publish fan fiction inspired by popular books, shows, movies, comics, music, and games. With Kindle Worlds, you can write new stories based on featured Worlds, engage an audience of readers, and earn royalties. Amazon Publishing has secured licenses from Warner Bros. for Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and The Vampire Diaries, with licenses for more Worlds on the way.
> 
> The Kindle Worlds Self-Service Submission Platform will launch soon and enable you to submit your original works for publication. Can't wait to start writing? Learn more on our Kindle Worlds for Authors page.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Things just got even better in the writing world!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Can you imagine the flood of content they could have submitted on day one? There's a bajillion works of fan fiction out there, ready to be uploaded.

Now I'll be twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a Star Trek, Star Wars, Marvel, D.C., or LoTR license (as unlikely as any of those are).


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Holding out for a Transformers license here.  My Dinobots origin story has been sitting on my harddrive for far too long. 

Seriously, this is quite awesome.  As usual, Amazon shows why they're in the lead in this industry. They are always forward thinking.


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## Paul StJohn Mackintosh (May 22, 2013)

How is this going to work in practice, though? What if you self-publish free not-for-profit fanfic? Can you do that without going through the Kindle Worlds platform? And what share of the profits go to the original creator of the World versus the publisher or media rights owner? Strikes me that the fanfic world was already doing well enough without this platform, but I guess the opportunity was just too good for Amazon to let slip.

I'm probably going to be writing about this for TeleRead, so feedback is welcome!


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

It's Hugh's fault.

This could be very interesting.

ETA: Now, are they going to have a list of OK'd properties on the site at launch?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Paul StJohn Mackintosh said:


> How is this going to work in practice, though? What if you self-publish free not-for-profit fanfic? Can you do that without going through the Kindle Worlds platform? And what share of the profits go to the original creator of the World versus the publisher or media rights owner? Strikes me that the fanfic world was already doing well enough without this platform, but I guess the opportunity was just too good for Amazon to let slip.
> 
> I'm probably going to be writing about this for TeleRead, so feedback is welcome!


I'm sure you can still write fan fic and make it available for free on dedicated sites for that. Whether or not license holders sue will still be up to them (most don't bother). If you try to sell fan fiction elsewhere, the chances of getting sued go up (unless you are E.L. James, John Scalzi, or someone similarly clever).

My thinking of fan fiction has always been that it's a gateway drug for new writers. Amazon is brilliant for doing this. Self-pubbed authors will contribute (I know I will), and new fan fic authors will become self-pubbed authors (and then hybrids).


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

What did John Scalzi do?


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## Lizbooks (Mar 15, 2013)

These all seem to be Alloy Entertainment properties. Since they "package" these books in the first place, it makes sense for them to do this. I wonder if any companies that aren't book packagers will go for this.

ETA: Found this very interesting: "In addition, with the launch of Kindle Worlds, Amazon Publishing will pilot an experimental new program for particularly short works-between 5,000 and 10,000 words. For these short stories-typically priced under one dollar-Amazon will pay the royalties for the World's rights holder and pay authors a *digital royalty of 20%*."


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## LectorsBooks (Apr 30, 2013)

Wow - mind blown. Fanboys and girls everywhere went: SQUEEEEEEEEEE!


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## NicWilson (Apr 16, 2011)

Am I the only one who is skeeved by this condition?

*Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright.*
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_375976362_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1001197431&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0PMT9DQ23B7VKYDMFASX&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1549889182&pf_rd_i=1001197421


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm not. It's not like I'd be able to do do anything with it anyway after publication, since the original property is owned by someone else. I'm looking at this as a sorta-kinda work for hire type of deal, like a media tie-in or a comic book.

DC Comics may be the only one that goes for this since Warner Brothers only keeps DC around for movies and a tax write off.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Patrick Szabo said:


> What did John Scalzi do?


Redshirts. Not really fan fiction, but inspired work. Or satire. Not sure where those boundaries cross and re-cross.

Didn't he also re-write a formerly published work?

Heck, all of Shakespeare's works were based on older works or historical accounts.


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## NickSpalding (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, this is relatively mind blowing, isn't it? So much so that I've come out of my hole to post on Kindleboards for the first time in ages 

The very concept that Amazon would be able to persuade companies to share their IP with writers so all can profit from it is HUGE. 

Now then, who the hell do I email over at DC Comics so I can write a Batman story?


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Redshirts. Not really fan fiction, but inspired work. Or satire. Not sure where those boundaries cross and re-cross.
> 
> Didn't he also re-write a formerly published work?
> 
> Heck, all of Shakespeare's works were based on older works or historical accounts.


I forgot all about Redshirts.



NickSpalding said:


> Well, this is relatively mind blowing, isn't it? So much so that I've come out of my hole to post on Kindleboards for the first time in ages
> 
> The very concept that Amazon would be able to persuade companies to share their IP with writers so all can profit from it is HUGE.
> 
> Now then, who the hell do I email over at DC Comics so I can write a Batman story?


Wait for it. You don't want to work with DC editorial. Numbskulls.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

It looks like the fan fiction writer makes 35%. The rest is split with the original creator and Amazon.

This is HUGE for the reading world, much better I think than the KDP program. 

I just wish they had listed who they have licenses for already so we can work while we wait.  I am praying Twilight is one of the communities. I have an AWESOME fan fiction with 10 chapters I'd love to finish for this project.

SQUEEE indeed, seeing how much Pride and Prejudice fan fiction tops the selling charts, this was a no brainer on Amazon's part. And it help original creations too, because it keep the community engaged between official releases.


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## Aya Ling (Nov 21, 2012)

I can't believe it--I'm too used to the notion of fanfiction being free. I used to put disclaimers in every chapter of my fanfics to ensure my work is non-profit, all the rights belong to original author, blah blah. Still, it seems like a win-win situation to me, when the original author and the fanfiction author both receive a profit. Even if it's Amazon-exclusive, it already is a dream to be PAID for fanfiction, it's always been a genuine labor of love. Pity that I write mostly Japanese anime fanfic *sigh*



Hugh Howey said:


> Heck, all of Shakespeare's works were based on older works or historical accounts.


It's just as well he lived in the Renaissance, or we'd never read his works today. He'd get sued ALL the time.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Patrick Szabo said:


> I'm not. It's not like I'd be able to do do anything with it anyway after publication, since the original property is owned by someone else. I'm looking at this as a sorta-kinda work for hire type of deal, like a media tie-in or a comic book.


That's kinda how I read it too. Since you'd be playing in someone else's universe, someone else holds the IP rights to that world.

I'm excited about this, esp if they can get more licenses.

That being said, the people out there who are complaining about there being too much crappy self-pub books to sift through are now staring at another gigantic pile of new titles in potentia about to drop on the world. Fun times!

Though now that I think about it, I'd also want to encourage writers to play with fan fiction, but also work on your own universes and settings and stories.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

NicWilson said:


> Am I the only one who is skeeved by this condition?
> 
> *Amazon Publishing will acquire all rights to your new stories, including global publication rights, for the term of copyright.*
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_375976362_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1001197431&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=0PMT9DQ23B7VKYDMFASX&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1549889182&pf_rd_i=1001197421


Considering the fact that you don't technically "own" the rights to the IP to begin with, this isn't a big deal. It's part of the licensing agreement Amazon has with the IP holders.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Can you imagine the flood of content they could have submitted on day one? There's a bajillion works of fan fiction out there, ready to be uploaded.
> 
> Now I'll be twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a Star Trek, Star Wars, Marvel, D.C., or LoTR license (as unlikely as any of those are).


LucasArts had a strong history of supporting the fan fiction community. A lot of their official writers started out writing fan fiction. I agree that it is doubtful that we'll see Disney supporting this, but of the ones you mentioned Star Wars has the most precident.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Also, reading further:



> Kindle Worlds is a creative community where Worlds grow with each new story. *You will own the copyright to the original, copyrightable elements (such as characters, scenes, and events) that you create and include in your work, and the World Licensor will retain the copyright to all the original elements of the World.* When you submit your story in a World, you are granting Amazon Publishing an exclusive license to the story and all the original elements you include in that story. This means that your story and all the new elements must stay within the applicable World. We will allow Kindle Worlds authors to build on each other's ideas and elements. We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.


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## Aya Ling (Nov 21, 2012)

JimJohnson said:


> That being said, the people out there who are complaining about there being too much crappy self-pub books to sift through are now staring at another gigantic pile of new titles in potentia about to drop on the world. Fun times!


Oh yes! At least when I was reading it several years ago, 80% of fanfiction on ff.net was crap. Atrocious spelling, faulty grammar, over-the-top characterization, you name it. A lot of them were unfinished as well. I had to look for recommendations in groups to sift out the crap.


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## NicWilson (Apr 16, 2011)

Eh, I guess it just bugs me, because in a work-for-hire situation, I would be negotiating, rather than being locked into whatever Amazon's terms-of-the-moment are or may be in the future.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> LucasArts had a strong history of supporting the fan fiction community. A lot of their official writers started out writing fan fiction. I agree that it is doubtful that we'll see Disney supporting this, but of the ones you mentioned Star Wars has the most precident.


Star Trek has something of a fan fic tradition as well. For a long time, anyone was welcome to submit spec scripts to TNG, DS9, and Voyager, and for 10 years Pocket Books published an annual anthology, Strange New Worlds, that accepted short story submissions from fans and then had a pro editor review the stories and pick ~20 for each anthology. The writers were paid pro rates and published. Basically paid and published fan fiction.

I know the powers that be that hold the book licensing for trek have changed over the years, but the tradition is there. SNW generated my first three pro sales and got me into SFWA as an active member, so I have very fond memories.  Were Trek to get added to Kindle Worlds (not likely, but who knows) I know a lot of writers who would jump right in.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Wait.

It's 35% of NET revenue and 20% of NET revenue depending on the length. Well, that's a different story. It might be 8 cents on a 99 cent book is Amazon's "net" is only 40% of the deal...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

NicWilson said:


> Eh, I guess it just bugs me, because in a work-for-hire situation, I would be negotiating, rather than being locked into whatever Amazon's terms-of-the-moment are or may be in the future.


Interesting; I've had several work for hire contracts and none of them were negotiable. Basically they were if you want to play in our world, here are the terms. Sign or walk.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

NicWilson said:


> Eh, I guess it just bugs me, because in a work-for-hire situation, I would be negotiating, rather than being locked into whatever Amazon's terms-of-the-moment are or may be in the future.


Look at it this way. As of yesterday, the amount of money you could make on fan fiction was 0%. Today, it just jumped to 35%.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow. This is a huge gamechanger. I have some concerns, the biggest of which is how many people are going to try to make an easy buck by just swiping stuff off archives? We already have major problems with people stealing off LitErotica, and this is only going to make the issue worse. Will the KDP spiders make sure it isn't available elsewhere? If it _can _be available elsewhere, how can I prove I'm the writer, or that someone else hasn't stolen my work? Even if I take down all my fanfic, how do I know someone hasn't already saved it to their hard drive and won't profit from my work by uploading it? I don't see any way for a fanfic author to prove his/her identity.

I'm also a bit worried about what this might do to free fanfic, and I wonder if there will eventually be content parameters (for example, if they somehow managed to get J.K. Rowling to play along, she would probably insist on no sexual content, and it wouldn't be surprising if other copyright holders wanted similar limitations).


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Aya Ling said:


> Oh yes! At least when I was reading it several years ago, 80% of fanfiction on ff.net was crap. Atrocious spelling, faulty grammar, over-the-top characterization, you name it. A lot of them were unfinished as well. I had to look for recommendations in groups to sift out the crap.


Right. But look at the work they have lined up. It's from published authors. This will open up the gates for quality fan fiction (of which there is already plenty).


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## Jude Hardin (Feb 5, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Wait.
> 
> It's 35% of NET revenue and 20% of NET revenue depending on the length. Well, that's a different story. It might be 8 cents on a 99 cent book is Amazon's "net" is only 40% of the deal...


"As with all titles from Amazon Publishing, Kindle Worlds will base net revenue off of sales price-rather than the lower, industry standard of wholesale price-and royalties will be paid monthly," the company said today in a statement.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Right. But look at the work they have lined up. It's from published authors. This will open up the gates for quality fan fiction (of which there is already plenty).


So is Wool one of the licensed worlds? David must be chomping at the bit to publish his Wool-inspired erotica...


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## whatdanwrote (Oct 18, 2012)

I think this is fascinating. I'm going to start working on my Pretty Little Liars fanfic, as a way of drawing in new readers. 

If Stephanie Meyer signs up their servers are going to break.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> This will open up the gates for quality fan fiction (of which there is already plenty).


I agree. I've read plenty of crud, but there's also fanfic out there that is absolutely professional quality.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> I'm also a bit worried about what this might do to free fanfic, and I wonder if there will eventually be content parameters (for example, if they somehow managed to get J.K. Rowling to play along, she would probably insist on no sexual content, and it wouldn't be surprising if other copyright holders wanted similar limitations).


They've already stated there will be content guidelines for Kindle Worlds as a whole and each licensed property.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_375976362_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1001197431&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1DGYBMBZKX4KFFAMXD0D&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=1549889182&pf_rd_i=1001197421


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> I'm also a bit worried about what this might do to free fanfic, and I wonder if there will eventually be content parameters (for example, if they somehow managed to get J.K. Rowling to play along, she would probably insist on no sexual content, and it wouldn't be surprising if other copyright holders wanted similar limitations).


Slides his _Dumbledore and Grindelwald in Godric's Hollow_ manuscript back under the table.

B.

ETA:



Jude Hardin said:


> "As with all titles from Amazon Publishing, Kindle Worlds will base net revenue off of sales price-rather than the lower, industry standard of wholesale price-and royalties will be paid monthly," the company said today in a statement.


For those new to the subject of net revenues, please refer to this PV article:

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/2011/how-to-read-a-book-contract-big-royalties-not-so-fast/

The question that must be asked is how Kindle Worlds defines "net revenues" in their contract.


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

This is an interesting tidbit.



> We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> We will also give the World Licensor a license to use your new elements and incorporate them into other works without further compensation to you.


I would say this would actually be an _incentive_ for a lot of fanfic writers, who would be thrilled to see an idea of theirs pop up as canon. Also, it covers the companies' arses; otherwise people would be coming after them all the time and saying, "You got this idea from my fanfic! I want compensation!"

My biggest concern here is the potential for posting other people's work, which seems absolutely immense. How can anyone prove s/he wrote a fanfic that's posted out on the web?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

This is incredibly exciting for true.

A return to how things used to work in the literary world (sans the part about being friends with the guy whose work you're ficcing) and an expansion of the creative pool.

I am kind of worried about corporate influence coming into play with fanfiction. I'm imagining a Death Star II sliding into orbit over fanfic's forest moon of Endor. Will the license holders now try to put the kibosh on stuff on ff.net for example? Or will they be satisfied with the money they get from published stuff?

Also, is this the end of the expanded universe and licensed novels?

No matter what, I'm going to polish my Teen Titans fic that got raves to a high gloss now. Funny that I've already been using my fics to advertise my original works.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Melanie Ray said:


> This is an interesting tidbit.


That's Standard Issue ass-covering. There have been ficcers who did some damage to writers by claiming that thier ideas had been stolen.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Melanie Ray said:


> This is an interesting tidbit.


Which is also fairly standard.


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> I'm also a bit worried about what this might do to free fanfic, and I wonder if there will eventually be content parameters (for example, if they somehow managed to get J.K. Rowling to play along, she would probably insist on no sexual content, and it wouldn't be surprising if other copyright holders wanted similar limitations).


That's my big fear. If they get the license to big franchises, what's to stop them from going to FF.net and AO3 and demanding all of the free fanworks about that thing get taken down because it now competes with their for-profit model. It will decimate online fan communities.

I don't think this is a good thing. I think fanworks should largely remain nonprofit.


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## jabeard (Apr 22, 2011)

Though they mention "more licenses on the way", it is rather striking that the properties they mention are all from Alloy Entertainment, one particular entertainment division.  It's not even like they have some other Warner Brother licenses to announce, but rather licenses from that particular group.

We'll see where they are at in six months and if this becomes something more general or just Alloy Entertainment+.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Well, I've written a ton of fanfic (most of it novel-length), so I'm watching carefully to see which worlds get opened up. I'd love to have the opportunity for more readers to find those works. (Although since most of my fanfic is Star Wars, HP, and LOTR, I'm guessing I probably shouldn't hold my breath.)

I do hope that it won't affect the free fanfic communities, though.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

This will give Amazon yet another category of specious reviews to go after. They may not realize how vicious shipping wars get. Wait till they have to police organized one-star strafing runs on every fanfic that features a ship that another group of shippers doesn't like. The idea of fandom coming to Amazon honestly makes my head ache. 



> If they get the license to big franchises, what's to stop them from going to FF.net and AO3 and demanding all of the free fanworks about that thing get taken down because it now competes with their for-profit model.


Also, the ones that DON'T choose to be licensed will now have a reason to go hunt down fanfic, too. If you actively have to state you don't want your world licensed, your lawyers will probably want you to be consistent about it. It really could wreck online fandom.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Yeah, there's no way in hell Disney is going to allow this for their Marvel characters and the Tolkein estate has always been bearish about their license. I'm still surprised the LOTR movies got made.


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## OldGrumpy (Mar 21, 2011)

And this ofc.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421

BUT:

Content Guidelines for Kindle Worlds
Pornography: We don't accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts.

-- Is that not why some write fan fiction so they can make the characters do what they would not normally do... duuu...

Offensive Content: We don't accept offensive content, including but not limited to racial slurs, excessively graphic or violent material, or excessive use of foul language.
Illegal and Infringing Content: We take violations of laws and proprietary rights very seriously. It is the authors' responsibility to ensure that their content doesn't violate laws or copyright, trademark, privacy, publicity, or other rights.
Poor Customer Experience: We don't accept books that provide a poor customer experience. Examples include poorly formatted books and books with misleading titles, cover art, or product descriptions. We reserve the right to determine whether content provides a poor customer experience.

-- So Amazon want's fan ficton from complete strangers that are the quality of top notch authors... right...

Excessive Use of Brands: We don't accept the excessive use of brand names or the inclusion of brand names for paid advertising or promotion.

Crossover: No crossovers from other Worlds are permitted, meaning your work may not include elements of any copyright-protected book, movie, or other property outside of the elements of this World.

-- Now i'm not reading fan fiction as per se, but is that not why you write fan fiction so that you can do a bit of cross overs...

-- So you can have it any color you want, as long as it's black.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Content Guidelines for Kindle Worlds
> Pornography: We don't accept pornography or offensive depictions of graphic sexual acts.
> 
> Offensive Content: We don't accept offensive content, including but not limited to racial slurs, excessively graphic or violent material, or excessive use of foul language.


Don't they have the same vague guidelines in place for KDP in general, though? I'm not sure this means "no sex." But if sexual content is allowed at all, it will presumably vary from world to world.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

There's lots of non-crossover, non-boot knocking fan fiction. I don't see the problem.


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So is Wool one of the licensed worlds? David must be chomping at the bit to publish his Wool-inspired erotica...


Dibs on the tagline "A silo[ve] story"


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## Fahid (Dec 23, 2012)

Interested in The Vampire Diaries....

But let me guess it's going to be like the Kindle Serials service where they decide on what to publish or is it literally self-publishing in a sense


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Brianfre said:


> Excessive Use of Brands: We don't accept the excessive use of brand names or the inclusion of brand names for paid advertising or promotion.


 Hooray! 

I am so, so tired of fics that fetishize brand names. No one can wear sneakers, they must be Chuck Taylors, no one can drive a car, it must be an Audi or a BMW, and oh god the band name shirts 

Can we extend this to original work to 'zon? Can we, can we, can we?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> But let me guess it's going to be like the Kindle Serials service where they decide on what to publish or is it literally self-publishing in a sense


They are doing both, according to the press release.



> I am so, so tired of fics that fetishize brand names. No one can wear sneakers, they must be Chuck Taylors, no one can drive a car, it must be an Audi or a BMW, and oh god the band name shirts


I don't see this as fetishizing, but as descriptive writing. There's a difference between my hero driving a Mercedes and a Yugo. And "sports car" or "luxury sedan" doesn't really cut it, IMHO.



> There's lots of non-crossover, non-boot knocking fan fiction. I don't see the problem.


Sure there is. There have always been all types of fanfic. I'm mostly worried about the homogenization (as a friend of mine put it) of fanfic. If Amazon licenses stuff, and it all has to be PG-13 and follow certain limited guidelines, and then they chase the free stuff of the 'net... well, that pretty much destroys fandom as we know it. Hopefully it won't happen that way, but fanfic has always existed mostly under the radar. I don't think having it dragged out into the light is the best thing for the continued existence of fandom.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Chuck Wendig's response:

"The weird thing is what happens to that comfortable space that separated canonical from non-canonical. Like, one assumes that the fan-fic remains officially non-canonical - and yet, people are paying for it. And getting paid in return. Which lends a kind of intellectual and emotional legitimacy to it. And allows for a very weird thing to happen: it lets the licensed fan-fiction to become, in theory, bigger than the material that spawned it."

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/blog/ (couldn't link to article; pro-tip - don't put expletives in your titles)

ETA#1: Wait, didn't this already happen to the author of the Vampire Diaries?
ETA#2: Wait, wasn't Alloy Entertainment the same entity that fired the Vampire Diaries' author mid-series?
ETA#3: Confirmed. http://bookalicio.us/2011/05/interview-with-l-j-smith-part-duex/


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> I don't see this as fetishizing, but as descriptive writing. There's a difference between my hero driving a Mercedes and a Yugo. And "sports car" or "luxury sedan" doesn't really cut it, IMHO.


My issue is when they have to shove their brand allegiance into works that either never mentioned brands or created their own fictional brands to start with. It reeks of vapid materialism.

I absolutely hate when fiction yanks me out of my unreality bubble to punch me in the face with artifacts from the real world that escaped into theirs.



> Sure there is. There have always been all types of fanfic. I'm mostly worried about the homogenization (as a friend of mine put it) of fanfic. If Amazon licenses stuff, and it all has to be PG-13 and follow certain limited guidelines, and then they chase the free stuff of the 'net... well, that pretty much destroys fandom as we know it. Hopefully it won't happen that way, but fanfic has always existed mostly under the radar. I don't think having it dragged out into the light is the best thing for the continued existence of fandom.


Hopefully they'll treat it as self-generating licensed novels. and ignore the free stuff.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Hopefully they'll treat it as self-generating licensed novels. and ignore the free stuff.


It's entirely possible, but the old line about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free comes to mind. Who's going to pay for fanfic when there's plenty of good stuff out there for free? It seems the most likely outcome is that they will eventually try to quash the free, unlicensed fic.


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

The world changes ... again!

Probably the biggest thing since KDP.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Regardless of what the payout for this is I think it might be a great way to build an audience. My first series has been favorably compared to The Vampire Diaries so if I could write a fanfic that draws people to my name, and then over to my books.... Woohoo!


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## Ursula_Bauer (Dec 12, 2010)

OMG, the minute I heard of this I came to the KBs 'cause I knew there'd be good back and forth on this topic.
Great posts, guys.

What strange times we live in.

Sure wish the 'zon would get stuff I'd write fan fic for.

I sort of wonder, how many folks may try to pub fan fic through amazon thinking it's open season because they didn't bother to read all the instructions, etc? Does this set a precedent?

It's all so weird.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Want to give yourself a migraine?

Try to imagine if E.L. James had published _Master of the Universe_ through this program.

B.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> Don't they have the same vague guidelines in place for KDP in general, though? I'm not sure this means "no sex." But if sexual content is allowed at all, it will presumably vary from world to world.


Puts my slash HP and LOTR fanfic back in its box :0

A lot of it is way too explicit for those guidelines, LOL! If we do have to take it down from archives, it'll be very disappointing for the readers and fans.

ETA

Huh, just went to sign up to be notified when it opens, but it's for "US customers only"

So shared world doesn't mean the world can play in it, just the US.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> ........
> 
> ETA#1: Wait, didn't this already happen to the author of the Vampire Diaries?
> ETA#2: Wait, wasn't Alloy Entertainment the same entity that fired the Vampire Diaries' author mid-series?
> ETA#3: Confirmed. http://bookalicio.us/2011/05/interview-with-l-j-smith-part-duex/


From that web interview: " (and I duly wrote a book called Phantom, but no one will ever see it). "

Looks like she'll be able to publish it _now_!


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

It looks like Amazon isn't truly looking to publish fanfiction, but probably wanted to use the word to create controversy. It worked. What they're really looking for is publishing tie-in material, albeit stuff that could be mined from the fanfic archives. I don't think that means Amazon won't go after TVD fic, et. al, though, if they're trying to corner the market on TVD tie in stuff.

John Scalzi has a great breakdown of what it is and the things writers should beware of. 

The people who should be most worried right now are those who make a living writing tie-ins, because this is a lot like those crappy publishing contracts Big 6 publishers keep trying to offer with little imprints based on the Author Solutions model.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Can you imagine the flood of content they could have submitted on day one? There's a bajillion works of fan fiction out there, ready to be uploaded.
> 
> Now I'll be twiddling my thumbs and waiting for a Star Trek, Star Wars, Marvel, D.C., or LoTR license (as unlikely as any of those are).


Good luck with that. This could help some authors break out, or at least help them build their audience. I just wonder what "authorized" means in the statement: "will allow any writer to publish authorized stories"


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> It's entirely possible, but the old line about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free comes to mind. Who's going to pay for fanfic when there's plenty of good stuff out there for free? It seems the most likely outcome is that they will eventually try to quash the free, unlicensed fic.


To be honest, I totally would.

ff.net, as much as I love it, has Sturgeon's Law in full effect. Some days, the excavation necessary to find something good isn't worth it. I would pay handsomely for some quality controlled, easily searchable stuff. Especially on a place where 'durr, I suck at summaries' is not acceptable.


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## Lizbooks (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm curious about cover art for these and if they will allow writers to use licensed images from the properties.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> From that web interview: " (and I duly wrote a book called Phantom, but no one will ever see it). "
> 
> Looks like she'll be able to publish it _now_!


Funny thing about that...

"...And since I wrote _Phantom_ before they told me, that book may even sound a bit like my writing, because the ghostwriter can do anything she likes with it, all the while making every coming book strictly Stelena..."

http://anditsdraining.tumblr.com/post/3137484606/l-j-smith-creator-of-the-vampire-diaries-books-fired

So she probably could not publish _Phantom_ now, because it would read too close to the "original" work. *swallows a Tylenol*

B.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

NicWilson said:


> Am I the only one who is skeeved by this condition?


I'm not surprised by that. The first licenses listed were Alloy and they own all rights on most if not all their titles. L.J. Smith who wrote Vampire Diaries made headlines when she was (fired/replaced/asked not to write them anymore.)


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## MsTee (Jul 30, 2012)

Coming out of self-exile just to say that I simultaneously detest and like this idea. As I mentioned on one of my f-list's page on LJ, what about the beta-readers? They edit fic to make it squeaky clean. Some beta-readers are even professional editors (mine is!). So how would this very important tidbit play into all of this. Won't the beta-readers turn around and demand payment as well? 

Additionally, plagiarism will skyrocket. We already have to contend with plagiarism in the FF community on a regular basis, so just imagine what will happen when you can now get money for fanfic.

ALSO: What about folks selling fanfic OFF of Amazon? The original creators may give the OK for folks getting paid for the fanfic ON Amazon, but guess what some enterprising individuals are gonna do? Throw up a WordPress blog, get a free shopping cart plugin and start selling fic, because, after all, It's Totally OK To Sell Example Canon Fanfic Now.

I see more headaches and worries coming from this than positives...


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I love it. I thinks its a great idea.  Original author gets $$, new author gets $$ and readers get new stories in worlds they love.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm sure you can still write fan fic and make it available for free on dedicated sites for that. Whether or not license holders sue will still be up to them (most don't bother). If you try to sell fan fiction elsewhere, the chances of getting sued go up (unless you are E.L. James, John Scalzi, or someone similarly clever).
> 
> My thinking of fan fiction has always been that it's a gateway drug for new writers. Amazon is brilliant for doing this. Self-pubbed authors will contribute (I know I will), and new fan fic authors will become self-pubbed authors (and then hybrids).


I was a fanfic author who self-pubbed and I'm still a mod on a writing forum on fanfiction.net. I posted the news today in that forum, and I have to say, I was surprised at the negativity. I understand not everyone is going to like it, but so far, everyone who chimed in with comments, (admittedly, only about a half-dozen so far) were not enthusiastic. They had some legit concerns, mostly having to do with copyright, ironically enough. lol.


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## Hilary Thomson (Nov 20, 2011)

I'd like to point out that if you go to the trouble to scrape the serial numbers off, you get paid 70 percent on Amazon, not the much smaller amount they're offering, and you'll be the one who owns the copyright free and clear.  That's what EJ James did, and she made quite a nice sum of money.  If James had gone the new route Amazon is offering, she would not have done anywhere near as well financially.  Just look at the movie rights alone.  They're James' property, not Meyer's.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> It's entirely possible, but the old line about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free comes to mind. Who's going to pay for fanfic when there's plenty of good stuff out there for free? It seems the most likely outcome is that they will eventually try to quash the free, unlicensed fic.


I absolutely would pay for good fan fic.


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## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

If they acquire the Harry Potter license, I may just be motivated enough to finish my HP fanfic novel that currently grows by about a paragraph a year.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Hilary Thomson said:


> I'd like to point out that if you go to the trouble to scrape the serial numbers off, you get paid 70 percent on Amazon, not the much smaller amount they're offering, and you'll be the one who owns the copyright free and clear. That's what EJ James did, and she made quite a nice sum of money.


  I can relate to that. In fact, just today a friend from highschool asked me if I was interested in pursuing movies/tv with my books, and of course, I said yes. She has a good friend who is a screenwriter, currently working on a new Michael J. Fox project, and who has sold a screenplay, so she was going to ask him about it. I don't expect anything to come of this, but it got me thinking and a little worried. My premise has some similarities to the original fanfiction. Not the details, but the overall concept. I thought, what if they recognize it? However, I can't worry too much because the tv show itself was a blatant rip off of a movie from the late 40s, I believe.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Hilary Thomson said:


> I'd like to point out that if you go to the trouble to scrape the serial numbers off, you get paid 70 percent on Amazon, not the much smaller amount they're offering, and you'll be the one who owns the copyright free and clear. That's what EJ James did, and she made quite a nice sum of money. If James had gone the new route Amazon is offering, she would not have done anywhere near as well financially. Just look at the movie rights alone. They're James' property, not Meyer's.












B.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Hilary Thomson said:


> I'd like to point out that if you go to the trouble to scrape the serial numbers off, you get paid 70 percent on Amazon, not the much smaller amount they're offering, and you'll be the one who owns the copyright free and clear. That's what EJ James did, and she made quite a nice sum of money. If James had gone the new route Amazon is offering, she would not have done anywhere near as well financially. Just look at the movie rights alone. They're James' property, not Meyer's.


As a writer and lover of original flavor fics, the absolute best original flavor stuff is so tied to the original mythos that it _can't_ be divorced from it. That's why it's good fanfic and not just good fic.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> It's entirely possible, but the old line about not buying the cow when you can get the milk for free comes to mind. Who's going to pay for fanfic when there's plenty of good stuff out there for free?


I'm sure there are enough free books in the world that no one has to buy books anymore. Yet people do. How is fanfic any different? I'm not particularly interested in fanfic--and certainly am not going to bother searching through free sites--but if a book of the quality of Redshirts pops up (I know that isn't exactly fanfic) then I have no problem paying for it.



MegHarris said:


> It seems the most likely outcome is that they will eventually try to quash the free, unlicensed fic.


I don't see why. I doubt that the fanfic that has always been free will hurt the paid sales. It's likely difficult to quash the free stuff, plus it'll piss off fans and writers of fanfic who just do it for their own enjoyment. And it's unlikely to have much impact on the sales of the paid stuff.


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

I don't understand the concerns over copyright. There has never been any sort of legal protection involving fan fiction. Fan fiction writers have always been at the whim of the copyright owner. If the copyright holder let it go, then they let it go. If they went after you, then you got shut down. For anyone to argue that "OMG the owner of the IP is gonna steal MY idea that is based on their IP" is sort of like a thief threatening to have you arrested for stealing because you snatched your purse back from him before he could get away.

I've written fan fiction. Heck, I published fan fiction when _Demonground_ had the license from White Wolf to publish stories based on the World of Darkness. It was a labor of love. If White Wolf had turned around and made a video game or movie off those stories, my response would have been "OMG!" and my only request would have been give me a free copy of the game/tickets to the movie. Because while I created the characters, the characters were based on their IP. I could strip all of the World of Darkness references from the stories, but it wouldn't work the same way because those characters were meant to be what they were. Alex was a Lasombra. All of her decisions were rooted in her relationship with her sire and clan. Take that away and everything she does feels contrived. It was the same with all of the characters. Take away the IP, and it's just a random group of supernaturals.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Hilary Thomson said:


> I'd like to point out that if you go to the trouble to scrape the serial numbers off, you get paid 70 percent on Amazon, not the much smaller amount they're offering, and you'll be the one who owns the copyright free and clear. That's what EJ James did, and she made quite a nice sum of money. If James had gone the new route Amazon is offering, she would not have done anywhere near as well financially. Just look at the movie rights alone. They're James' property, not Meyer's.


They will obviously pick projects that have already gone that route. Pretty Little Liars, Gossip Girl, Vampire Diaries, all popular book franchises and TV franchises.


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## cheriereich (Feb 12, 2011)

NicholasAndrews said:


> If they acquire the Harry Potter license, I may just be motivated enough to finish my HP fanfic novel that currently grows by about a paragraph a year.


Hehe! That's what I was thinking. I have a ton of HP fan fiction stories that I didn't quite finish writing. It'd definitely would be worth taking them out, finishing them up, and editing them.


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## Seanathin23 (Jul 24, 2011)

If they had something like Star Wars, Star Trek or the like I might never leave, but as such I don't see me joining this. Still cool idea.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't understand the concerns over copyright. There has never been any sort of legal protection involving fan fiction. Fan fiction writers have always been at the whim of the copyright owner. If the copyright holder let it go, then they let it go. If they went after you, then you got shut down. For anyone to argue that "OMG the owner of the IP is gonna steal MY idea that is based on their IP" is sort of like a thief threatening to have you arrested for stealing because you snatched your purse back from him before he could get away.
> 
> I've written fan fiction. Heck, I published fan fiction when _Demonground_ had the license from White Wolf to publish stories based on the World of Darkness. It was a labor of love. If White Wolf had turned around and made a video game or movie off those stories, my response would have been "OMG!" and my only request would have been give me a free copy of the game/tickets to the movie. Because while I created the characters, the characters were based on their IP. I could strip all of the World of Darkness references from the stories, but it wouldn't work the same way because those characters were meant to be what they were. Alex was a Lasombra. All of her decisions were rooted in her relationship with her sire and clan. Take that away and everything she does feels contrived. It was the same with all of the characters. Take away the IP, and it's just a random group of supernaturals.


I know. I was a bit dumbfounded when the first comments from fanfic writers were about copyright and why should they sign over copyright to their works forever. I mean, they don't have to--nobody is forcing them to, but they can't actually sell them, unless they re-work the stories so they aren't copyright violations.

Someone upthread mentioned filing off the serial numbers, which I understand, and, ahem, have done, but there is one reason to not do that, at least in my case. One of my favorite fandoms involves the most awesome husband and wife ever on TV. I have a bunch of flashfiction length stories that I really love and thought about compiling into a book somehow. It would mean coming up with a whole new scenario, different jobs, different kids, etc, and I feel like it wouldn't come off nearly as well without the visual from the TV show. Especially for a show like that which has nothing supernatural or science fictionish about that can be tweaked or deleted. The interaction between the adults and the teens in the show feels genuine and organic, and that is because of the careers the adults have. I couldn't come up with other careers that would bring them in the same kind of contact without it sounding creepy. lol.


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

This is BRILLIANT!!

OMIGAWD! If amazon can get licenses from more companies and especially the foreign companies that make popular Anime      

The stories are already established, with a starving fan base. Talk about a slam dunk! Even if the FF author just gets .9 cents, they will still make money. These stories will require very little marketing (at first, then when it gets flooded you will have to work over the noise). Interesting about covers, and getting editors for fan fiction. I've had some ideas for novel length fan fiction when i was younger. There are some teens and YA's who are going to make a killing at paid FF. I know I would of.

Could you imagine someone making FF of YOUR story or YOUR characters and getting paid for it? Of course if they are not good writers, you might not be too impressed. But what if they are GOOD. Hmmmm, would it be competing with you or would they actually help keep your characters and stories alive? Giving them new life!

OMIGAWD! There is going to be so much violent gay porn FF about my male characters! LOL! I already know it! Actually, I've already had gay porn ff written about my characters technically.  I don't have the balls to write m/m for pay myself but I doubt anyone will enjoy reading them more then I will! I can't wait! SQQEEEEEEE!!!

WOW! OMIGAWD! Paid for writing fanfics! NERD-GASM!!!!


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

How fun! This brings back dear old memories of being in college. My boyfriend got me hooked on Final Fantasy games and I wrote some stuff. One novella-sized story that I put on ff.net. It was actually the first real full story I ever finished, and the first public feedback I've ever had on my writing. It got some pretty stellar comments along the way, which was totally life-changing for me at 20. Seriously, lol! I changed my major from business to creative writing and haven't stopped writing since. I logged in again a little while ago and found that a couple people were still actually reading it more than ten years later, lol!

Good times.   

I'm also wondering how Amazon will know that they're not all swiped off the internet? Especially when so many of us used pseudonyms to write them.


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## Hilary Thomson (Nov 20, 2011)

One potential problem.  You've got stories in more than one fandom up on fanfiction websites.  Fandom A lets you legit publish in their fandom.  Fandom B does not.  You go ahead and submit to fandom A, and publish a story under your own legal name. Everyone and their dog who has copies/screenshots of your old stories now knows who you are, including the copyright holders of Fandom B.  Fandom B, which doesn't allow fanfic, is in a sue-happy mood and has you pinned down.  You could end up in genuine trouble and be forced to pay money to someone else in court.

Back when no one knew who you were, you may have been too small to bother suing.  But now that you're a better-known legit author with some change in your pockets, you may be worth going after.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


>


I have to say, when I heard of the Kindle Worlds project, my first reaction was: "Well, I can think of one fandom that will never be allowed on Amazon."


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Oh, Amazon...


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I'm also wondering how Amazon will know that they're not all swiped off the internet?


I really do think this is the major problem. We already know there are people out there who will swipe stuff from LitErotica and post it. If they get more license holders on board, stealing stories from a major fandom and putting it up on Amazon is pretty much going to be like printing your own money. It's going to happen, and I don't see any way of combating it. How can Amazon know if I'm Icequeen Snowdragon or not?


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Don't care about the royalty rate.  I think the trick will be to write a nice quality fan fic, get it published, and get new readers over to your core books ... people who will be interested in your original fiction, but who would not otherwise think to look for you.  Sure, you can do that with fan fic now, but these will be people who are willing to pay for quality stories.

(IMHO don't hurt me  )


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## Guest (May 22, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> How can Amazon know if I'm Icequeen Snowdragon or not?


The same way they "know" you are Meg Harris. As in, they don't. I don't understand how this is a unique problem for fan fiction. I can upload one of your books right now under my name with a different cover and Amazon has nothing in place to stop me from doing that.

I assume Amazon will have some sort of filter because they have to protect the IP of their partners. There may be some restrictions we aren't seeing yet. It may be restricted to authors who are already "known" on Amazon (i.e. established KDP users). There may be an actual contract they ask you to sign instead of relying on just the digital clicking of a box. I doubt it is going to be as easy as upload the file and go because they have legal obligations now to the IP partners to protect the IP.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

This could also be a big money maker for those writing the new stories.  I mean those properties GG, PLL, and VD are HUGE, they are ginormous followings, and it will only get bigger with more new stories coming out in those worlds.

I'd be all over writing for Vampire Dairies.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> The same way they "know" you are Meg Harris. As in, they don't. I don't understand how this is a unique problem for fan fiction. I can upload one of your books right now under my name with a different cover and Amazon has nothing in place to stop me from doing that.


My books are already up on Amazon, and many of them have been up there for a while. If you were to do this, you might make some money, but if I or my _many _fans  noticed, I would object to Amazon and point out to them the previously posted book. They would then reasonably suspect you were a plagiarist, and not only would they remove the book, they might delete your account.

If, however, I've had a fanfic posted on the internet for several years, there is nothing to stop someone from swiping it off FF.net or another archive and post it as their own. I can then go to Amazon and say, "Hey, this is mine and I wrote it as Icy Dragon." They will then ask the other person, who will presumably say, "No, I'm Icy Dragon." There is little way for Amazon to determine who is telling the truth, so probably the person who posted it first will win, and the fic will stay up on Amazon.

I am not sure, however, how the problems with LitErotica have been resolved. If Amazon has reasonably worked out a way to remove fic swiped from LitErotica, then it is quite possible they can deal with a similar fanfic problem. I think they'd better brace themselves for a lot of this sort of problem, though.



> I assume Amazon will have some sort of filter because they have to protect the IP of their partners. There may be some restrictions we aren't seeing yet. It may be restricted to authors who are already "known" on Amazon (i.e. established KDP users).


Could be. "Wait and see" is always good advice. We'll see how it shakes out.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Nothing is stopping people from mining ficitonpress right now for stories to pub. This concern is not unique to fanfiction.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Nothing is stopping people from mining ficitonpress right now for stories to pub. This concern is not unique to fanfiction.


I agree, and this is one reason I don't post on Fictionpress or Wattpad. I admit I'm paranoid,  but it is awfullly easy for someone to swipe a story and publish it.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Oh, boy. This is huge.
> 
> http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/05/22/amazon-unveils-kindle-worlds-publishing-platform-to-help-aspiring-fan-fiction-writers-sell-their-work/
> 
> ...


This is just so weird, I've spent the day shaking my head. It has a huge potential for all sorts of problems. I dunno...


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> Nothing is stopping people from mining ficitonpress right now for stories to pub. This concern is not unique to fanfiction.


I suppose they could accept only new fanfics that haven't been posted anywhere. The fanfics would be exclusive to Amazon like Select.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm kind of curious what will become of all the social 'baggage' fandoms generate around fics.

Are people going to anthologize challenges?

If it goes well, will the internet be forced to stop being immature idiots about all fic being squick-tastic slash of low quality?

What will become of fanon, author's notes, cross-fic injokes and fic-hopping OCs (will they all die? Pretty please?)

Since AUs aren't precluded, how far AU will people go when eventually, they could change the names and get 70%?

And how about this one:

A known author writing fanfic of their own work for sale. Why do this? To protect canon and avoid creating 'official' AUs while still screwing around.


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## Nicole Ciacchella (May 21, 2012)

This is a really interesting idea and it'll be fascinating to see how it plays out.

I've written some fanfic myself, though mine's all based on video games. If the opportunity were to present itself, I'd be very tempted to publish some of what I've written.


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> And how about this one:
> 
> A known author writing fanfic of their own work for sale. Why do this? To protect canon and avoid creating 'official' AUs while still screwing around.


That actually sounds really, REALLY fun!


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Laura Rae Amos said:


> I'm also wondering how Amazon will know that they're not all swiped off the internet? Especially when so many of us used pseudonyms to write them.


It will probably have to be exclusive to Amazon and they'll have their bots run searches based on large portions of the text.

You won't be able to post it at ff.net AND amazon.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> ...they'll have their bots run searches based on large portions of the text.
> 
> You won't be able to post it at ff.net AND amazon.


This is how I would screen new material if I were Amazon.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> This is how I would screen new material if I were Amazon.


Yep, and if someone steals your fic, they aren't going to be able to sell it because it would have to be exclusive to Amazon. It's not likely someone stealing it is going to ask you to remove it so they can sell it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Li Chaka said:


> OMIGAWD! There is going to be so much violent gay porn FF about my male characters! LOL! I already know it! Actually, I've already had gay porn ff written about my characters technically. I don't have the balls to write m/m for pay myself but I doubt anyone will enjoy reading them more then I will! I can't wait! SQQEEEEEEE!!!
> 
> WOW! OMIGAWD! Paid for writing fanfics! NERD-GASM!!!!


Each World will have content guidelines. I strongly doubt any will allow smutfic. But, we'll see.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

This could turn into a great list-building tool for indie authors: write fanfic for a Kindle World in your genre, have an email sign-up at the end, and let subscribers know about your own fiction.

David


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Brianfre said:


> And this ofc.
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421
> 
> BUT:
> ...


Bah. I guess I'm out.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I have deleted this post as I do not consent to the new Terms of Service that Vertical Scope are attempting to retrospectively apply to our content.  I am forced to manually replace my content as, at time of editing, their representative has instructed moderators not to delete posts or accounts when users request it, and Vertical Scope have implied that they will deal with account deletion requests by anonymising accounts, which would leave personally identifying information in my posts.

I joined under the previous ownership and have posted over the years under different Terms of Service.  I do not consent to my name, content, or intellectual properties being used by Vertical Scope or any other entity that they sell or licence my data to.


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

Nicole Ciacchella said:


> This is a really interesting idea and it'll be fascinating to see how it plays out.
> 
> I've written some fanfic myself, though mine's all based on video games. If the opportunity were to present itself, I'd be very tempted to publish some of what I've written.


Publishing fanfics of video games would be awesome for this program. Basically you are the one to breath real character and storylines (working around the basic game storylines which are usually pretty loose)in to the story. You can flesh them out almost anyway you want. And it really would be like you WERE the main author of that story.

I had a video game FF on fanfiction.com a while ago. Fun to write and got good reviews. Wouldn't compete with my original writing but would be a fun to do another for pay as a side gig.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't know. This seems like a very bad work-for-hire contract.

1) 35% only AND you lose the global rights to the work for life of copyright (ie your life +70 years)
2) Alloy has the right to take any of your ideas and use them as it sees fit. Ie they could make a whole spin-off show based on your Pretty Little Liars novel and you'd get nothing at all.

Those are the two biggies for me, at the moment. Amazon exclusive, losing all rights, and no further dollars if your work is used in something else.

Tie-in fiction usually has much better contracts where you get paid either a large flat fee or an escalating royalty with options for more if your work is used in something else.

So yeah, it is an interesting development, but I don't think it is very good for writers.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Right, when compared to writing composed for your own IP, this reimbursement scheme looks no bueno. But Amazon is taking non-saleable goods and converting them into saleable ones. What was legally worth zero now has a potential value. So if an author is determined to write fanfic, or has a large fanfic backlist, this will be their first chance to make some change.

Personally, I would still be hesitant, but I'm confident that will be a minority position.

B.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Over on the Passive Voice, one of the authors who contributed to the initial batch of stories to be released on KW responded to some of my questions and noted that there is an approval process to go through:

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/2013/amazon-publishing-introduces-kindle-worlds-a-new-publishing-model-for-authors-inspired-to-write-fan-fiction/#comment-107776

So KW isn't simply a matter of writing a story, submitting it, and assuming it goes live for sale immediately. There's a vetting process, apparently.

Which is good, if so, IMO.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> I don't know. This seems like a very bad work-for-hire contract.
> 
> 1) 35% only AND you lose the global rights to the work for life of copyright (ie your life +70 years)
> 2) Alloy has the right to take any of your ideas and use them as it sees fit. Ie they could make a whole spin-off show based on your Pretty Little Liars novel and you'd get nothing at all.
> ...


I wouldn't worry about any of those things at all. You'd be using other people's materials anyway, like writing a spec episode of tv show. The idea that you could profit from it is a "gift horse." But even more than that, you get a chance to get your name out in front of a ton of readers from a big fan base. I wish I knew anything at all about the three shows they have contracts with. If I did, I'd do this in a heartbeat. I just hope they license more material.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Right. And plenty of writers are willing to work for terrible terms and low/no pay. 

I'm just not one of them.

And, mind you, I've done work-for-hire tie-in stuff. I got paid. Up front.

I know plenty of people will jump on this. Good for them. As long as they know what they are getting into and are okay with the terms, that's their decision.  We're all in charge of our own careers.  I was pointing out why I, personally, think it is a terrible idea and don't want to jump on it.

(Besides, if I was ever going to write fan-fiction or tie into an existing world all on my own without being paid by the source, I'd just write WOOL. Hugh's terms are way way better than this.  )


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## Nicole Ciacchella (May 21, 2012)

Li Chaka said:


> Publishing fanfics of video games would be awesome for this program. Basically you are the one to breath real character and storylines (working around the basic game storylines which are usually pretty loose)in to the story. You can flesh them out almost anyway you want. And it really would be like you WERE the main author of that story.
> 
> I had a video game FF on fanfiction.com a while ago. Fun to write and got good reviews. Wouldn't compete with my original writing but would be a fun to do another for pay as a side gig.


I think video games lend themselves especially well to fanfic because you already are creating a whole mythology about your character when you're playing an RPG. I'd be stupid excited if I could publish what I've written, particularly because I do believe one of the fics I wrote is longer than any of my original works.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> ...you get a chance to get your name out in front of a ton of readers from a big fan base. I wish I knew anything at all about the three shows they have contracts with. If I did, I'd do this in a heartbeat. I just hope they license more material.


You took the words right out of my mind!


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I put a few thoughts on my blog: http://www.hughhowey.com/amazon-announces-kindle-worlds/

My thought on the clause that people are up in arms over (some of them, anyway) is that it is meant for something quite different than first appearances.


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## Lizbooks (Mar 15, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> I don't know. This seems like a very bad work-for-hire contract.
> 
> 1) 35% only AND you lose the global rights to the work for life of copyright (ie your life +70 years)
> 2) Alloy has the right to take any of your ideas and use them as it sees fit. Ie they could make a whole spin-off show based on your Pretty Little Liars novel and you'd get nothing at all.
> ...


Many if not most work-for-hire deals give you an upfront sum with no royalties, or a very small cut of royalties. I've done a fair amount of work-for-hire stuff over the years, and this seems like a better deal to me. You have the opportunity to make a lot more money if your work is successful, rather than getting a 2K-10K flat fee and nothing else.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> You took the words right out of my mind!


Yes, I am quite terrifying that way.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Yes, I am quite terrifying that way.


Must. Resist.


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## Jason Eric Pryor (Jan 30, 2013)

It would be great if they were able to get the license to short-lived but loved properties. I'm a huge fan of Joss Whedon's Firefly. It was cancelled after only 14 episodes, but got a movie called Serenity three years later. Lots of passionate fans that would love to read more stories from the 'verse!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

As long as they're licensed, I've got no problem with it.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

I think someone at Amazon liked David Adam's fanfic


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Seeing as this is shaping up to just be a cheap way to produce tie-in novels, I have to wonder if they'll allow AUs at all.

Then again, it would be nice to be rid of all those superhero NoPowers!AUs.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Monique said:


> Each World will have content guidelines. I strongly doubt any will allow smutfic. But, we'll see.


Considering Vampire Diaries that would be kind of weird as on that show somehow everyone seems to have sex with everyone else, except for the women over 40 (poor Sheriff Forbes).

What they probably won't allow will be gay fiction aka slash. So no Damon dumping the girl for Alaric (even though they are almost canon and their bromance is epic). No angst-fueld love-fest between Taylor and Jeremy or Bonnie and Caroline.


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## LectorsBooks (Apr 30, 2013)

Jason Eric Pryor said:


> It would be great if they were able to get the license to short-lived but loved properties. I'm a huge fan of Joss Whedon's Firefly. It was cancelled after only 14 episodes, but got a movie called Serenity three years later. Lots of passionate fans that would love to read more stories from the 'verse!


Shiny.


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## Clare K. R. Miller (Apr 6, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Seeing as this is shaping up to just be a cheap way to produce tie-in novels, I have to wonder if they'll allow AUs at all.
> 
> Then again, it would be nice to be rid of all those superhero NoPowers!AUs.


Yeah, I was kind of wondering the same thing--and I agree that it's a cheap way to produce tie-in novels. I saw someone else describe it as crowdsourcing tie-in novels rather than fanfic as it's usually thought of. That seemed very accurate to me.

And I sincerely doubt that this is going to cut into outside fanfic in any appreciable way. I don't see the vast majority of copyright holders allowing this based on their books/worlds, especially considering how much extra work it will be for individual copyright holders (as opposed to book packagers like Alloy).


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

AlixNowarra said:


> Considering Vampire Diaries that would be kind of weird as on that show somehow everyone seems to have sex with everyone else, except for the women over 40 (poor Sheriff Forbes).
> 
> What they probably won't allow will be gay fiction aka slash. So no Damon dumping the girl for Alaric (even though they are almost canon and their bromance is epic). No angst-fueld love-fest between Taylor and Jeremy or Bonnie and Caroline.


BOOO!! I like use to like slash  as long as it's not too graphic. With covers like the one in your sig!


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

Li Chaka said:


> BOOO!! I like use to like slash  as long as it's not too graphic. With covers like the one in your sig!


Heh, thank you . Though unlike the cover the story is rather graphic.


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

AlixNowarra said:


> Heh, thank you . Though unlike the cover the story is rather graphic.


Oh, I'm the type that just likes to be teased


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't anything about the rules or restrictions of writing fan fiction. But I'd love to write GoT fiction or Sookie Stackhouse fanfic. Can you write any fanfic? Do you have to change all names and not refer to the original content/author?

Can you write fanfic about any story out there? 

Excuse my ignorance.


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## J Bridger (Jan 29, 2013)

You can only do pretty little liars, the vampire diaries or gossip girl so far. I doubt George R. R. Martin will ever allow his universe to be used this way to be honest based on his track record.

I think we all have to accept that in a post fifty shades world, publishing fanfic is gonna be something desperate or unscrupulous places do.

See this for example - http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/72505774.html


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Just saw this post... time to hunt out/finish that Doctor Who fanfic I was writing....


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

This sounds more like tie-in novels/short stories, rather than what we're used to as fan fiction. At least there seems to be some screening involved, so the work will be readable. 

The contract terms look fair to me, considering you'd be writing for someone else's concept. 35% is lots better than 0%.

The only worlds I'd be interested in writing for:

Star Trek (did quite a bit years ago, when I was a kid)
Star Gate (had an awesome idea for an episode or several, right before the series got cancelled)
Firefly (well, duh, fantastic world)

I'll be waiting a long time before any of those sign on.


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## Fahid (Dec 23, 2012)

So what do they mean "original", I mean how "original" does it have to be? Because most TV shows copy other ideas to begin with, just wondering....


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## LynPerry (Apr 8, 2013)

Kindle Worlds will become a welcome outlet for hundreds of mid-list writers (original content creators) with worlds that have gone unexplored and untapped by traditional publishing. Fan fiction's been around a long time, and it's a boon for the publishers of such popular franchises as Star Wars and Star Trek - the key difference is the current copyright owners of these name brands solicit fans like A.C. Crispin, Dean Wesley Smith, Alan Dean Foster, Timothy Zahn, etc., to play in their playgrounds. And rightly so. But now not-so-big name brands (but popular nevertheless with millions of fans) will have a chance to open their doors to new writers with new ideas. Again, a welcome outlet for a whole new set of writers - both original content creators and fans who write.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I know very little about fan fiction, have never written it or read it (unless 50 Shades counts. ) 

I think this is a very interesting idea though, especially as Alloy is involved. Could be a way for them to eliminate those pesky writers-for-hire, and see which fan fic rises to the top, then run with it.

For writers I would think it could be a good way to promote if the fan fic audience is your target audience. If I wrote YA or NA, I'd definitely try this...imagine if your story resonated with die hard lovers of Pretty Little Liars...you could expand your reader base significantly.


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## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

J Bridger said:


> I doubt George R. R. Martin will ever allow his universe to be used this way to be honest based on his track record.


If you've read his blogs, he's pretty adamant about he being the only one to write in his worlds and with his characters. He's not a fan of fanfiction.


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## Alexis Quinn (May 23, 2013)

I love it!
I'm wondering if they'll buy the licenses to popular anime series or something. I would love that!


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

A left field question....    

Can us indie writers license our works to this?
If so....Would you want to?
And if  not, what's the diff between not wanting your own work licensed vs. enjoying the larger franchised works (Trek, Star Wars, Warehouse 13 etc)

I'm curious


And I don't mean that in a sarcastic tone I really am curious
It can be a two edged sword ( fan fic)  Its the ultimate compliment from a fan who loves your characters ( or the characters of a much larger corporate owned franchised property) and yet all those works BY fans are not generating additional income for the writers

I read the stuff myself but I am not sure I'd want a number of fans to start writing their own stuff with characters esp. if I won't be making any money from it-- though if I become very prolific and churn out a few new novels on my own the fan work would be helpful to keep interest going between my official stories

It seems like a complicated issue ( to me)


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> Regardless of what the payout for this is I think it might be a great way to build an audience. My first series has been favorably compared to The Vampire Diaries so if I could write a fanfic that draws people to my name, and then over to my books.... Woohoo!


Heck yes 

While the show is declining, consider season finale Nielsen #s

Season 1 3.47 million viewers
Season 2 2.86 million viewers
Season 3 2.53 million viewers
Season 4 2.24 million viewers

A 10% conversion of season 4 finale viewers to book buyers of the licensed "fanfic" is 224,000 buys.

A 1% conversion is 22,400 buys.

Let's say because of the "fanfic" you wrote, one of your original fiction vampire books had half of a percent conversion from the season finale numbers -- that is 11,200 buys. And consider if that original vampire fiction was a serial?


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

TattooedWriter said:


> We are all at different stages in our careers and what one person rejects could be a goldmine for someone else.


True enough


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## Li Chaka (Apr 19, 2013)

FrankZubek said:


> A left field question....
> 
> Can us indie writers license our works to this?
> If so....Would you want to?
> ...


I would license my work in a heartbeat! 
The series I'm presently working on is based on an RPG I created in the very late 90's early 2000. The game did very well (as it goes for chat based RPG's which were somewhat popular right before the WoW came out)
The players of the game enjoyed it so much they began creating fanfiction about it!  I had to build a website to house all of it.
I lOOOVVEED reading the fanfiction from my game! LOVED IT! OMIGAWD! YES! There was one brilliantly written horror fic based on the game. It was so cool to see my characters and the other players characters getting snuffed out one by one and how they died. The writer managed to tailor each excruciating death to the characters personalities. There was tons of comedy fics about it, I even wrote a few myself, of course. Some serious dramatic fics. And yes, there was a juicy collection of slash, Yaoi/Yuri stories. I tried myself but I had a hard time writing romance when I was younger, and I'm still like a 13 year old when it comes to sex scenes (*giggle*giggle* ewwwww!!*giggle**hides eyes*). But wow, I totally loved reading them. Some of them were soooo hot/romantic!

But honestly, seeing your characters used in storylines by other people, is one of the most awesome experiences! And I can understand some writers fears, but look at it like this. The people writing fan fiction are FANS, they love your work and your characters. They tend to handle with care, even parodies. My main character from my RPG was Male, and seeing him in a fanfic was like him being married off to a woman(or a man, or multiple men, as in some of the slash fics *lol*). Their new spouse tends to take very good care of them, just like you did mom/dad


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## Jim Bernheimer (Jul 21, 2010)

I came out of the HP fanfic world and had a decent following there.  It didn't necessarily translate into that many sales of my original works, but it did help.  Fanfic readers are generally used to getting it for free.  This might be a way to tap into those who aren't fanfic readers and would buy a title from a licensed world.

Given the number of times one of my fanfics has been posted by someone else at some point in time I can easily see how there will be folks who start grabbing every story they can get their hands on and passing it off as their own.  My guess is Amazon is lining up one big fish out there (probably not HP or Star Wars) that they'll announce when they need a bigger splash depending on how the Alloy properties fare.

If they ever did acquire a HP license, I could probably publish 7 novels in the span of 3 months, though I'd have to heavily edit for vulgarity in one of them and violence in others.

Still, it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next year.  One never knows, it might even rekindle (bad pun) interest in old properties that might lead to something new like Space Above and Beyond, Firefly, Logan's Run, or something similar.


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