# Erotic VS. Romantic



## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

If the goal is to sell as many books as possible to the largest audience:

How much erotic content compared to "romantic" should a book contain?

Can Erotica be listed as Romance?

Can Romance be listed as Erotica?

What if it's a hybrid of both? Does it default to Erotica category?


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## Janet Rochester (Mar 1, 2015)

These sound like some $10,000 questions.

Given what I'm seeing on the bestseller lists these days, it looks like the more erotica your book contains, the better. I'm probably a lousy person to try and respond to this post, because I don't read erotica, but I do follow what others are saying about it, so I'll give it a whirl anyway. 

The most important thing is that you don't want to give a reader an unpleasant surprise. If they buy your "romance" for their 14-year-old niece, are they going to get an earful from a ticked-off mom? OTOH, if someone looking for a hot read settles in for the afternoon with a story that never gets past third base, will they feel gypped? 

If you're looking to see the greatest number of books to the greatest number of people, I'd say try really hard to convey the level of heat in your blurb. Then, no matter what list you put it on, a savvy reader should have a good idea of what she's getting. And, as always, the right cover helps too. 

Hybrid? Hmm. That's an interesting question. What do you mean by hybrid? My impression is that erotic novels contain romance, but (obviously) not always the other way around. Am I wrong? Are there novels where the characters know nothing about each other, care even less, and just want to hit the sheets/wall/padded playroom?


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Janet Rochester said:


> These sound like some $10,000 questions.
> 
> Given what I'm seeing on the bestseller lists these days, it looks like the more erotica your book contains, the better. I'm probably a lousy person to try and respond to this post, because I don't read erotica, but I do follow what others are saying about it, so I'll give it a whirl anyway.
> 
> ...


Janet,

Great points. Thanks!


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

Erotic Romance is a huge subgenre of romance and has been for years. Entire publishers are devoted to Erotic Romance(Ellora's Cave, Loose Id are two well known ones). Do a search on Amazon and you'll come up with lots of free and .99 to study. There are also craft books on writing erotic romance.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

By "hybrid" it sounds like she actually means erotic romance or "erom". Erom is BIG right now. Erom is interesting because the content is expected to be hot hot hot, but readers also expect to see proper romance genre tropes. It MUST have a HEA or HFN ending. Readers seem to want to "feel" something, like they do with regular romance, but they want it a little more down and dirty.

I'm an urban fantasy writer but I've been working on some contemporary erom short stories in order to flex my writing muscles. It's been a real challenge but I'm likeing it. 2 of my shorts went live today under a pen name. I don't know if I'll ever CLAIM this pen name or how much work I will put into producing content for it, but it's definitely been a good learning experience.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> By "hybrid" it sounds like she actually means erotic romance or "erom". Erom is BIG right now. Erom is interesting because the content is expected to be hot hot hot, but readers also expect to see proper romance genre tropes. It MUST have a HEA or HFN ending. Readers seem to want to "feel" something, like they do with regular romance, but they want it a little more down and dirty.
> 
> I'm an urban fantasy writer but I've been working on some contemporary erom short stories in order to flex my writing muscles. It's been a real challenge but I'm likeing it. 2 of my shorts went live today under a pen name. I don't know if I'll ever CLAIM this pen name or how much work I will put into producing content for it, but it's definitely been a good learning experience.


HEA = Happily Ever After?
HFN = Happy for Now?

How many pages were your pen name short stories?


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> HEA = Happily Ever After?
> HFN = Happy for Now?
> 
> How many pages were your pen name short stories?


Yes those are the meaning. 
My first story was about 5,600 words and the second around 5,200. I'm sure the third will be around the same. They've each been live for about 8 hours and 4 hours respectively, and I've had...(checking)... 5 borrows total between them so far. Which I'm REALLY hoping means that this is the start of something good.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Yes those are the meaning.
> My first story was about 5,600 words and the second around 5,200. I'm sure the third will be around the same. They've each been live for about 8 hours and 4 hours respectively, and I've had...(checking)... 5 borrows total between them so far. Which I'm REALLY hoping means that this is the start of something good.


Awesome! Best of luck

I am working on my alt pen name's first release.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

no, romance should not be listed as erotica.

no erotica should not be listed as romance.

they have specific definitions, and putting them in the incorrect category will seriously annoy readers.

as has been suggested, there are inexpensive examples of romance, e-rom, and erotica available.  check them out (or check out their reviews) to get a sense of what people like/dislike.

i have to admit that i get a bit twitchy when authors seem to be writing a category they don't seem to have knowledge about.  (note: this tends to happen a lot in romance category, but i have also seen it science fiction and fantasy categories)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Adding to telracs post.
Read the genre before attempting to write it.  Most especially in those 3 distinct categories.    Those genres have picky readers.  They are also voracious readers.    So lots of money to be had or lost.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> Awesome! Best of luck
> 
> I am working on my alt pen name's first release.


lol the first 2 releases I did under a different pen name were COMPLETED flops. They've been up a week and the only 2 borrows were by forum members. I know that seems soon to judge but I can just feel that continuing that series is beyond pointless. I have a different series I will be launching under that name in 2 weeks so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck on your new pen name!!


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

There are actually three categories - erotica, romance and erotic romance.  Erotica has to have sex in the first or second chapter already, and often thereafter.  It usually has very little in terms of plot or character development.  It does not show the development of a romantic relationship either, but focuses on how sex affects the lives of the characters and how they explore sex.  Romance will probably only have sex by chapter 7, and might not have detailed scenes beyond kissing if it is more clean or Christian romance.  Romance has a detailed plot, focuses on the development of a relationship, and it also a happy ending.  Erotic Romance is romance but with more graphic sex scenes than the usual type of romance.

Oh, want to add - you can possibly classify your erotica as romance BUT you will end up with bad reviews if romance readers feel cheated and feel it is nothing but sex.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Melody Simmons said:


> There are actually three categories - erotica, romance and erotic romance. Erotica has to have sex in the first or second chapter already, and often thereafter. It usually has very little in terms of plot or character development. It does not show the development of a romantic relationship either, but focuses on how sex affects the lives of the characters and how they explore sex. Romance will probably only have sex by chapter 7, and might not have detailed scenes beyond kissing if it is more clean or Christian romance. Romance has a detailed plot and also a happy ending. Erotic Romance is romance but with more graphic sex scenes than the usual type of romance.
> 
> Oh, want to add - you can possibly classify your erotica as romance BUT you will end up with bad reviews if romance readers feel cheated and feel it is nothing but sex.


See that is the balance I am concerned about. I don't want to offend anyone but at the same I don't want to disappoint (cheat) them.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> See that is the balance I am concerned about. I don't want to offend anyone but at the same I don't want to disappoint (cheat) them.


I figure some people will love my work, some will hate it, some won't care. All you can do is write the very best story that you can, but you're bound to displease SOMEONE.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

The best thing you could do is actually read the genre.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm willing to give OP a pass on not understanding this because there are a lot of mis and poorly categorized books in erotica and romance. There's a huge variety on romance and one person's hot is another's tame, so there's no way to please everyone. For erom, I would look at Sylvia Day as the go to author. But I see books in erom with relatively few sex scenes that aren't all that explicit.

Romance (except for sweet/ Christan) seems to average 2-5 sex scenes per novel and they're not usually too explicit. E-rom (which is often just categorized in romance because retailers make it harder to get visibility is erotica and erotic romance is categorized in erotica) is probably about 10% sex scenes and they should be sensual and explicit. Depending on length, that's 5-10 1-2k word sex scenes. But, honestly, I've seen popular books in all categories totally across the board.

NA seems to be a little hotter on average.

But, as long as you make it clear with your blurb and cover, you should be ok.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

If you put "erotic" in the blurb, this should be enough to let readers know what to expect?


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

This is my first post, Hello everyone. 

I wanted to write a reply to your question because I write in the erotic romance genre (under a pen name) and i read a lot of books in this genre.

I would echo what Melody Simmons said about the three categories. With erotic romance there can be a lot of sex, there are quite a few books in the bestsellers chart right now that feature a lot of sex but there is always a HEA.

Some authors to check out - J.S. Cooper, Helen Cooper, Kristen Proby, Christina Lauren, Deborah Bladon, Whitney Gracia Williams, Laurelin Paige and Krista Ritchie. 
You can look at a list of erotic romance books on Goodreads - http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/erotic-romance

The readers of this genre are great, they read these books in a day and come back for more. So it's a good idea to plan out a series and write them and release them quite quickly. However, if you write at a slower pace then maybe consider writing novella's like Deborah Bladon and Helen Cooper do


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

katetanner said:


> This is my first post, Hello everyone.
> 
> I wanted to write a reply to your question because I write in the erotic romance genre (under a pen name) and i read a lot of books in this genre.
> 
> ...


Kate,

Thanks for the great feedback.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Here's my simple guide. Is a reader going to pick up this book to read about two people falling in love? Then put it in romance. Otherwise, no, it's not enough to just tack on someone saying "I love you" to an erotica book. 

There is a lot of erotica being mischaracterized as romance and it's irritating readers. When that happens, Amazon tends to crack down hard and it never goes well for erotica writers when that happens.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I'm making the transition from erotica to erom right now. In my opinion, erom should have a stronger plot. The plot can still evolve around someone coming to terms with who they are through sexual exploration, but the characters should be stronger, real people the readers can care about. Also, the sex is still graphic, but told with a bit more finesse.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sarah Aubrey said:


> Here's my simple guide. Is a reader going to pick up this book to read about two people falling in love? Then put it in romance. Otherwise, no, it's not enough to just tack on someone saying "I love you" to an erotica book.
> 
> There is a lot of erotica being mischaracterized as romance and it's irritating readers. When that happens, Amazon tends to crack down hard and it never goes well for erotica writers when that happens.


Misplacement is happening on a wide scale right now, so much so that reading to research might not help the op at all, since some romance titles could give her the wrong idea. I've been waiting for the crackdown for a while now. I'm sure it's coming soon. Then again, Amazon has only themselves to blame. Some of the erotica titles they are letting pass screening are blowing my mind. I mean seriously. All I can figure is they're trying to bloat KU numbers and will delete and ban accounts when they have what they need.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Sarah Aubrey said:


> There is a lot of erotica being mischaracterized as romance and it's irritating readers. When that happens, Amazon tends to crack down hard and it never goes well for erotica writers when that happens.


And let's not even get started on all the erotica in Women's Fiction. "Billionaire's Menage Secret Baby" isn't Women's Fiction by any stretch of the imagination. And this--really?

http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Pregnant-Steamy-Medical-Romance-ebook/dp/B00TUHBSMS

No. Not Women's Fiction.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> lol @ every single one of the categories on that page.


Yep. It's not ANY of them.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> And let's not even get started on all the erotica in Women's Fiction. "Billionaire's Menage Secret Baby" isn't Women's Fiction by any stretch of the imagination. And this--really?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Pregnant-Steamy-Medical-Romance-ebook/dp/B00TUHBSMS
> 
> No. Not Women's Fiction.


I came across a menage secret baby story the other day, lol.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I came across a menage secret baby story the other day, lol.


I am with you. There's a few 100% erotica books in new adult romance or contemporary romance categories.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I'm making the transition from erotica to erom right now. In my opinion, erom should have a stronger plot. The plot can still evolve around someone coming to terms with who they are through sexual exploration, but the characters should be stronger, real people the readers can care about. Also, the sex is still graphic, but told with a bit more finesse.


I made the transition mid-serial. Took my erotica and scrubbed the sex scenes--nearly a month of re-writes but kept everything else the same... Added more plot and hints to the HEA coming and republished in romance, marking it with a warning that it contains 'steamy sexual scenes.' Readers who've read the first five books may notice the extreme naughtiness gone... And if they do, I'm okay with that. It was the readers who were following for the plot, suspense and HEA that I was after.

If anyone wants to borrow the first one (short story) thru KU and tell me if I'm on the right track for steamy romance, I'd appreciate it. I certainly don't want to add to the mis-categorization problems.

http://www.amazon.com/Truckers-Wife-Steamy-Journey-Exploration-ebook/dp/B00LHA1L1O/ref=la_B00STAEDPG_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425826741&sr=1-2


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

I know the names of a lot of the biggest erotica authors so i know what to search for to find their books to read but some of the erotica books in contemporary romance have covers which could be a romance title, so i check the blurb and read a little sample or check the reviews (if there any reviews).


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> I made the transition mid-serial. Took my erotica and scrubbed the sex scenes--nearly a month of re-writes but kept everything else the same... Added more plot and hints to the HEA coming and republished in romance, marking it with a warning that it contains 'steamy sexual scenes.' Readers who've read the first five books may notice the extreme naughtiness gone... And if they do, I'm okay with that. It was the readers who were following for the plot, suspense and HEA that I was after.
> 
> If anyone wants to borrow the first one (short story) thru KU and tell me if I'm on the right track for steamy romance, I'd appreciate it. I certainly don't want to add to the mis-categorization problems.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Truckers-Wife-Steamy-Journey-Exploration-ebook/dp/B00LHA1L1O/ref=la_B00STAEDPG_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425826741&sr=1-2


I would love to read it. Also, I was thinking of moving some stuff to romance after I clean it up. Did you have to come up with a new title, or just unpublish the erotica and republish?


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I would love to read it. Also, I was thinking of moving some stuff to romance after I clean it up. Did you have to come up with a new title, or just unpublish the erotica and republish?


No, I kept the same title and covers as the story is the same story, just toned down the sex scenes... a LOT. Each episode has 1 and sometimes 2 sex scenes.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Lol. I thought about deleting my post as I haven't outed my secret pen name ever before... But now I'm quoted, I guess y'all know.  

Oh well, I'd rather take a chance at getting some valuable feedback than to keep hiding in fear, lol. Katrina, let me know what you think if you do borrow it. Appreciate it!


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Lol. I thought about deleting my post as I haven't outed my secret pen name ever before... But now I'm quoted, I guess y'all know.
> 
> Oh well, I'd rather take a chance at getting some valuable feedback than to keep hiding in fear, lol. Katrina, let me know what you think if you do borrow it. Appreciate it!


I'm not in KU, but it's only .99 cents. I'll just buy it. It's a tax write off , lol.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I'm not in KU, but it's only .99 cents. I'll just buy it.


Thanks, Katrina. And I wanted to clarify in case you and others do this. I didn't unpublish. I just edited the content, changed keywords and changed categories. I wasn't sure what would happen if I unpublished and republished. Like would I lose the few reviews I had? So just updated instead.

Looks like the worst thing in doing it this way is I lost my also-Boughts (at least on the iPad, it's not showing any), but that's okay, because my AB's were all erotica anyway.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Thanks, Katrina. And I wanted to clarify in case you and others do this. I didn't unpublish. I just edited the content, changed keywords and changed categories. I wasn't sure what would happen if I unpublished and republished. Like would I lose the few reviews I had? So just updated instead.
> 
> Looks like the worst thing in doing it this way is I lost my also-Boughts (at least on the iPad, it's not showing any), but that's okay, because my AB's were all erotica anyway.


I think what is confusing me is I thought you couldn't move a book out of erotica without republishing.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I think what is confusing me is I thought you couldn't move a book out of erotica without republishing.


That's what I thought too. But that was wrong! At least in my case. Although my books were NOT in the adult dungeon. I think if they are, you cannot switch. Mine were in straight erotica categories too. No romance. They switched over within ten hours. All six books. But the ranking starts at the bottom. So be prepared for that. I just did this Friday...2 days ago. And ranking has actually improved. I haven't run any promos or announced anywhere. Not even a tweet. That makes me think KU must be showing it as a new release... But I can't find it in the KU library. So not sure how readers are finding it 

I'm anxious to see how they do once I get up the guts to promo it...


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> That's what I thought too. But that was wrong! At least in my case. Although my books were NOT in the adult dungeon. I think if they are, you cannot switch. Mine were in straight erotica categories too. No romance. They switched over within ten hours. All six books. But the ranking starts at the bottom. So be prepared for that. I just did this Friday...2 days ago. And ranking has actually improved. I haven't run any promos or announced anywhere. Not even a tweet. That makes me think KU must be showing it as a new release... But I can't find it in the KU library. So not sure how readers are finding it
> 
> I'm anxious to see how they do once I get up the guts to promo it...


That's good to know. None of my stories are in the dungeon. I keep my titles and covers clean. At one point I considered simply publishing a romance version and leaving the erotica up for those who might want a steamier version, but I decided it could lead to accidental buys and angry offended readers.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> That's what I thought too. But that was wrong! At least in my case. Although my books were NOT in the adult dungeon. I think if they are, you cannot switch. Mine were in straight erotica categories too. No romance. They switched over within ten hours. All six books. But the ranking starts at the bottom. So be prepared for that. I just did this Friday...2 days ago. And ranking has actually improved. I haven't run any promos or announced anywhere. Not even a tweet. That makes me think KU must be showing it as a new release... But I can't find it in the KU library. So not sure how readers are finding it
> 
> I'm anxious to see how they do once I get up the guts to promo it...


Part of the rank jump is going to be due to the fact that Amazon nerfs erotica titles in the search results. As your titles get shuffled closer to the top of the search results because Amazon isn't shoving you to the back of the bus any longer, more people find you and click the buy button. This is a big part of the reason why so much erotica is being categorized in places it doesn't really belong (and the writers have been encouraged to do so by some big names in the genre).


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Part of the rank jump is going to be due to the fact that Amazon nerfs erotica titles in the search results. As your titles get shuffled closer to the top of the search results because Amazon isn't shoving you to the back of the bus any longer, more people find you and click the buy button. This is a big part of the reason why so much erotica is being categorized in places it doesn't really belong (and the writers have been encouraged to do so by some big names in the genre).


I've seen very big names recommend this, but I prefer to write a stronger story and really belong there when I make the jump. I know some think it's a grey area and Amazon won't act, but some of these titles popping up in rom make me think they will sooner or later.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

So maybe Amazon should create an official "Erotic Romance" category?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Erotica> Romance


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

CJAnderson said:


> So maybe Amazon should create an official "Erotic Romance" category?


They have erom they need an official erotica romance. There's actually a huge difference between erotic and erotica.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> I've seen very big names recommend this, but I prefer to write a stronger story and really belong there when I make the jump. I know some think it's a grey area and Amazon won't act, but some of these titles popping up in rom make me think they will sooner or later.


That's the safe way to play it and it's what *I* recommend. Deliberately mis-categorizing your books seriously p*sses off my reader side, and a lot of those same big names who recommend putting erotica titles in other genres put their books in less competitive subgenres/categories where they know they don't belong just to gain extra visibility.



CJAnderson said:


> So maybe Amazon should create an official "Erotic Romance" category?


There's not enough difference between romance and erotic romance to draw a line, and they're not really the problem anyway. It's the people putting hardcore porn that can in no way be construed as romance into the coming of age and inspirational and romance categories that are causing issues.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Please note: if you make a reader mad enough they can report your book to Amazon. 
Again note readers are  picky.  Now I know some erotic writers.    I hope when Amazon does clean house again, those authors aren't hurt because their books are already where they belong.


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## mish (Jun 27, 2011)

L.L. Akers said:


> If anyone wants to borrow the first one (short story) thru KU and tell me if I'm on the right track for steamy romance, I'd appreciate it. I certainly don't want to add to the mis-categorization problems.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Truckers-Wife-Steamy-Journey-Exploration-ebook/dp/B00LHA1L1O/ref=la_B00STAEDPG_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425826741&sr=1-2


I didn't borrow it because I'm not in prime so I can't do that. However, I can say that the cover, the title (or rather subtitle), and most especially the blurb do not scream romance to this romance reader. I would assume this to be an erotica story about a woman's sexual journey with potentially different partners(?) I dunno. There is nothing here that indicates a romance to me. I would pass over it and probably be annoyed that it was showing up in the romance category.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> That's the safe way to play it and it's what *I* recommend. Deliberately mis-categorizing your books seriously p*sses off my reader side, and a lot of those same big names who recommend putting erotica titles in other genres put their books in less competitive subgenres/categories where they know they don't belong just to gain extra visibility.
> There's not enough difference between romance and erotic romance to draw a line, and they're not really the problem anyway. It's the people putting hardcore porn that can in no way be construed as romance into the coming of age and inspirational and romance categories that are causing issues.


The subgenre/category makes me mad, too, because I've bought books that weren't anything like what I was looking for due to this.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

mish said:


> I didn't borrow it because I'm not in prime so I can't do that. However, I can say that the cover, the title (or rather subtitle), and most especially the blurb do not scream romance to this romance reader. I would assume this to be an erotica story about a woman's sexual journey with potentially different partners(?) I dunno. There is nothing here that indicates a romance to me. I would pass over it and probably be annoyed that it was showing up in the romance category.


Thank you. Valuable input. I guess I need to change the subtitles and work on the blurb... The main character does not have different partners... And she gets her HEA, although (spoiler...kinda), there's a reason why her friend... Who DOES have lots of different Patners, is trying to get the main character to behave as promiscuously as she herself does. Thus, the suspense. Book 6 brings more of the romance in as they move closer to the end of the story and the HEA.

I agree, the covers don't scream romance. But I usually go against the grain on covers anyway. My other series is Romantic Suspense and doesn't follow the herd on covers either.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Thank you. Valuable input. I guess I need to change the subtitles and work on the blurb... The main character does not have different partners... And she gets her HEA, although (spoiler...kinda), there's a reason why her friend... Who DOES have lots of different Patners, is trying to get the main character to behave as promiscuously as she herself does. Thus, the suspense. Book 6 brings more of the romance in as they move closer to the end of the story and the HEA.
> 
> I agree, the covers don't scream romance. But I usually go against the grain on covers anyway. My other series is Romantic Suspense and doesn't follow the herd on covers either.


Check out We put the "Baby in sitter" You can get away with your cover.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> Check out We put the "Baby in sitter" You can get away with your cover.


I wouldn't hold that up as a shining example to follow.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I wouldn't hold that up as a shining example to follow.


I guess I was being sarcastic, lol. I will say her new stepbrother series has absolutely gorgeous covers and it looks like it has a plot, haven't read it yet though.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Those seem a lot more legit. I must say the babysitter ones surprised me. Unlike some people, CZ has been very consistent about categorizing erotica correctly.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Those seem a lot more legit. I must say the babysitter ones surprised me. Unlike some people, CZ has been very consistent about categorizing erotica correctly.


Well, after what happened she probably didn't want to deal with the screening anymore. I can't blame her there, but like you said, the new ones look legit. I'm being as legit as I can with my crossover, so maybe she's decided to really write rom.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> That's the safe way to play it and it's what *I* recommend. Deliberately mis-categorizing your books seriously p*sses off my reader side, and a lot of those same big names who recommend putting erotica titles in other genres put their books in less competitive subgenres/categories where they know they don't belong just to gain extra visibility.
> There's not enough difference between romance and erotic romance to draw a line, and they're not really the problem anyway. It's the people putting hardcore porn that can in no way be construed as romance into the coming of age and inspirational and romance categories that are causing issues.


That's exactly what annoys me, hardcore pure erotica being put in the romance or coming of age categories. I search for erotica when i'm in the mood to read erotica and i search for new adult romance or contemporary or erotica romance (basically i want some romance with a HEA) when i'm in the mood for that. 
I can understand that some authors want more visibility but i wouldn't put my books in mystery because they have nothing to do with mystery.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2015)

This is a very tough question.

50 Shades of Grey changed definitions. And now authors are pushing more and more and creating genres that are, well, hard to categorize

Dark Romance
Romantic Erotica
etc.

I think the trick is to have enough romance that you can get into Romantic Erotica or Dark Romance. So you can give both romance and sexual satisfaction/pushing the boundaries.

A lot of naughtiness + then love after that.

There was a short that catches the sentiment precisely - Not Just An Orgy.

Your Erotica should be - Not Just Amazing Sex, Also Love and Connection and Broken Heroes the Heroine can Heal or something to that end.

When there's more. When the work doesn't just touch your reader in a sexual way, also in a spiritual and/or emotional and/or romantic way. If you really work at it you can even get intellectual satisfaction and HEA with the healed hero who's broken only when with the heroine.

Think of it as buttons or sliding switches. If you can flip multiple switches then you win.

Finally, the plot construction etc. really helps. At the core the story should be very strong, with everything else being built up around it.

Erotica tends to be extremely weak and illogical plot wise.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

50 Shades changed nothing - except that a bunch of romance writers decided to re-categorize their stories to jump on the gravy train. Before 50 Shades came out - right as the Kindle was hitting peak popularity and people discovered that they could read smut on the way to/from work, on the plane, etc. in perfect privacy - romance authors didn't want anything to do with erotica and looked down their noses at the entire genre. But as soon as they realized that they could jump on the 50 Shades coattails to cash in they were all over it.

The definitions of romance, erotic romance, erotica, and porn were there long before Twilight existed for EL James to write fanfic of it. Those definitions are still there, they're just being massively abused by people who know better but do it anyway because hey,  $$$ trumps everything else.

And of course you've got people constantly conflating erotica with porn. Selena Kitt's Baumgartner series is erotica. Lolita is erotica. Kitty Thomas' books are erotica. There is a story with a plot and complex characters and the MC(s) explore their sexual natures and what drives their sexual needs and urges. Porn is the 4000 word short where the pizza guy shows up and bangs the *innocent* babysitter *hard and without protection*. It's what the majority of the people publishing "erotica" are actually writing.

There's nothing wrong with porn. I make good money writing porn. But it isn't erotica. It's a very, very different market and the readers do not really care about plot or deep characters. It doesn't belong in any category outside of erotica, but these are the stories you see filling the other categories. The thing is that nobody really cares if you put dark erotic romance into contemporary romance because there's already enough of a gray area there to allow for a lot of variance. Having explicit sex scenes doesn't magically change a romance into erotica any more than having no sex scenes turns a romance into literary fiction. But erotica - and most especially porn - belong in the erotica category and they ought to stay there.


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## George Hamilton (Dec 14, 2010)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Yes those are the meaning.
> My first story was about 5,600 words and the second around 5,200. I'm sure the third will be around the same. They've each been live for about 8 hours and 4 hours respectively, and I've had...(checking)... 5 borrows total between them so far. Which I'm REALLY hoping means that this is the start of something good.


Congrats on the quick results, Stephanie. Have you done any marketing or anything else which made readers find your books so quickly?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

This leads to how should one categorize Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake series. 
She goes from pure to beyond trashy.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I just wish the erotic romance category was in romance instead of erotica. That would make things so much easier for e-rom authors.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> This leads to how should one categorize Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake series.
> She goes from pure to beyond trashy.


Aw, c'mon. Doesn't everyone like a little urban fantasy with their rape/gangbang/torture porn? Haven't been able to get past Blue Moon, myself. When the length of the books in a long-running series takes a sudden 50% jump it's generally not a good sign.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> 50 Shades changed nothing - except that a bunch of romance writers decided to re-categorize their stories to jump on the gravy train. Before 50 Shades came out - right as the Kindle was hitting peak popularity and people discovered that they could read smut on the way to/from work, on the plane, etc. in perfect privacy - romance authors didn't want anything to do with erotica and looked down their noses at the entire genre. But as soon as they realized that they could jump on the 50 Shades coattails to cash in they were all over it.
> 
> The definitions of romance, erotic romance, erotica, and porn were there long before Twilight existed for EL James to write fanfic of it. Those definitions are still there, they're just being massively abused by people who know better but do it anyway because hey, $$$ trumps everything else.
> 
> ...


I think the problem is Amazon likes to say they don't publish porn. Well, sure they do. i've been buying it from them for years since before I started writing erotica. But since they deny it they don't have a category for it, so porn goes into erotica and they call the line blurred. Now erotica writers say I belong in romance. I'm clogging up erotica with my romance. The fact is, I do write erotica, but most people don't know the difference between that and smut anymore. Not saying there is anything wrong with smut. Like I said, I've been buying it for years on Amazon. I'm just saying it's not erotica and I'm not really in the wrong category.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Aw, c'mon. Doesn't everyone like a little urban fantasy with their rape/gangbang/torture porn? Haven't been able to get past Blue Moon, myself. When the length of the books in a long-running series takes a sudden 50% jump it's generally not a good sign.


Kelli unless you want werethings/vampire/human orgies, don't bother. I had to quit after I forget which book that was.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

George Hamilton said:


> Congrats on the quick results, Stephanie. Have you done any marketing or anything else which made readers find your books so quickly?


Nope, I posted under a brand new pen name and then BAM! Borrows. Today I'm at 12 borrows and 1 sale for the day. After much internal debate over the last 24 hours Ive decided to bite the bullet and "claim" the pen name (praying that this isn't some terrible fluke!). I didn't want to tie myself to it in case it's a huge flop, but I might as well take the risk. So I've just finished updating my website and creating a dedicated mailing list.

As to the comment above about porn being 4000 words with a bunch of banging.

I write short erom. Maybe it's erotica but I think of it as erom. That's how it's classified in my mind. I tried to write erotica but my voice was to... Tame?

Anyway, my stories are about 5.5K. And in this last one I've crammed the story of a young woman that goes back to her home town in order to take over the running of her fathers diner after he suffers his second heart attack. Through her sorrow and stress she ends up banging a billionaire that comes into her diner one night, he's a hometown boy and they actually went to the same highschool. He was the schools golden god and she was a nobody, he thought she was hot, she thought she was invisible to him.
Don't know how it ends yet but there are 2 sex scenes in it.

ALL of that in 6,000 words. I even find time for her to visit her ailing dad in the hospital.

I guess what I'm saying is, don't be to quick to judge short stories with graphic sex as porn or erotica. I've only started writing short stories 2 weeks ago and I'm trying really hard to get everything balanced, find my voice, learn HOW to write short stories AND make money at it. All of my stories end with a HFN ending. And I'm trying really hard to write short story erom with my newbie skills.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Nope, I posted under a brand new pen name and then BAM! Borrows. Today I'm at 12 borrows and 1 sale for the day. After much internal debate over the last 24 hours Ive decided to bite the bullet and "claim" the pen name (praying that this isn't some terrible fluke!). I didn't want to tie myself to it in case it's a huge flop, but I might as well take the risk. So I've just finished updating my website and creating a dedicated mailing list.
> 
> As to the comment above about porn being 4000 words with a bunch of banging.
> 
> ...


No, it's not the length. I have a 6,000 word story with a lot of 4 and 5 star reviews talking about the story as well as the spicy stuff.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Kelli unless you want werethings/vampire/human orgies, don't bother. I had to quit after I forget which book that was.


Does this vampire look like Brad Pit or David Boreanaz. Cuz then I could say maybe.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> No, it's not the length. I have a 6,000 word story with a lot of 4 and 5 star reviews talking about the story as well as the spicy stuff.


I probably just read her post wrong. I'm a bit sleep deprived at the moment, lol.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> This is a very tough question.
> 
> 50 Shades of Grey changed definitions. And now authors are pushing more and more and creating genres that are, well, hard to categorize
> 
> ...


So in which categories does 50 Shades belong?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

It's fine, Stephanie. But no, it isn't the length. I do short eroms/romances as well as erotica/porn. It's quite possible to write a good romantic short story and get sales and good reviews for it (at least since the inception of KU). I'm strictly talking about the stories where there are no real characters or plot, just a lead-up to sex, being categorized as anything but what it obviously is and what the writer clearly intends it to be recognized as based on the cover and blurb.

Again, I write a lot of short porn so I have nothing at all against it in and of itself. I just get aggravated when I go to look for "may/december romance" or "older man younger woman romance" (my personal favorite romance trope) and instead of Arlene James or Laurey Bright or Barbara Mcmahon and such I get pages and pages and pages of  daddy/daughter PI or babysitter dubcon labeled as romance.

It's really getting to the point where just browsing the "clean" categories on Amazon is getting to be NSFW. Unfortunately at some point Amazon is going to have to do something about it, and as heavy-handed as they usually are about erotica they're going to end up slamming a whole lot of people who don't deserve it right along with the ones who do. That's how it always happens, and it's why I won't go all-in on KU and why I'm branching out into other genres as fast as I can.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jane_Dough said:


> I've been researching a lot of different categories lately and you're right. It's a hot mess right now. There are erotica showing up in very non-erotic categories and as I read the description it clearly didn't match my search terms.


Yeab, another writer on here told me about it and I started browsing. It was an OMG moment when I saw for myself. But like said before, Amazon screens and they let the stuff through when it suits their needs. Then they expect the writers, even the ones following the rules to take the heat for them. No gate keeping is great for indies, but it does allow the line to get more blurred in this instance. Amazon really needs to set stronger guidelines for erotica, then stick to them. Some erotica writers are probably not even aware they're breaking the rules. They see other similar titles up there and think it must be okay. Then they wake up and find they've received a nasty email from Amazon, who doesn't even tell them what the problem is. I've seen countless threads by new authors saying Amazon blocked their book and they don't know why. Someone whose already been through it will reply it's your title or your cover image or your blurb has this word in it. Not all erotica authors are trying to be sneaky. Some of us are just trying to figure out what the rules are.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> So in which categories does 50 Shades belong?


I'd put 50 shades in erotic-romance where it's categorised on goodreads. There is a romance/love story and a few boring vanilla sex scenes and some BDSM throughout the books. It's not hard core porn and it's not straight romance.

That's my 2 cents. Other writers on here may see it differently.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

katetanner said:


> I'd put 50 shades in erotic-romance where it's categorised on goodreads. There is a romance/love story and a few boring vanilla sex scenes and some BDSM throughout the books. It's not hard core porn and it's not straight romance.
> 
> That's my 2 cents. Other writers on here may see it differently.


That's how I always saw it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Katrina, 
What hurts is the ones that know better just want that quick money.  
They put their toys where they don't belong, then gripe when they can't expose themselves everywhere.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> I just wish the erotic romance category was in romance instead of erotica. That would make things so much easier for e-rom authors.


i wish Amazon would create more categories so authors did not feel the need to put their books in the complete wrong categories. I prefer the way you can choose genres on goodreads such as *dark *or *adult fiction>erotica* or *romance>erotic romance* or *erotica> bdsm*.

I too wish that Amazon would move erotic romance over to the romance section so that it is not flooded with straight erotic stories, especially not the 'daddy drillled my holes' or 'hard without protection' kind of stuff. That's straight erotica, why are these authors putting it in erotic romance.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Katrina,
> What hurts is the ones that know better just want that quick money.
> They put their toys where they don't belong, then gripe when they can't expose themselves everywhere.


I know, that's why I'm expanding into the other genres, like thrillers and erom that really is erom.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

katetanner said:


> i wish Amazon would create more categories so authors did not feel the need to put their books in the complete wrong categories. I prefer the way you can choose genres on goodreads such as *dark *or *adult fiction>erotica* or *romance>erotic romance* or *erotica> bdsm*.
> 
> I too wish that Amazon would move erotic romance over to the romance section so that it is not flooded with straight erotic stories, especially not the 'daddy drillled my holes' or 'hard without protection' kind of stuff. That's straight erotica, why are these authors putting it in erotic romance.


Because it's instant visibility and they're hoping to make tons of money before Amazon deletes the titles.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2015)

So in which categories does 50 Shades belong?

1) What KateTanner wrote. Erotic Romance.

2) It's basically a license. To take something wild that was bubbling in people's curiosities and give it a way out. The whole set up is a structure or construct that makes it OK to do things that would otherwise be considered 'wrong' or 'inappropriate'.

Basically, societies are becoming so politically correct and 'appropriate' that there's a strong desire in most people to break out and do something different.

If you spend your day within very narrow confines of what is considered appropriate, then there's a need for an outlet. Of course, going from the light to the darkness is too much for people, so shades of grey is perfect.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Katrina,
> What hurts is the ones that know better just want that quick money.
> They put their toys where they don't belong, then gripe when they can't expose themselves everywhere.


The thing is if erom is really erotica now, where should my erom go? It's getting confusing. I feel like my erom doesn't have enough e in it now.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Sorry if this is slightly off topic but I don't really understand what belongs in the *coming of age* category.

My next book is about two young people who grew up together, seperate for a few years and get together years later. I'm not sure if i could put it in coming of age. 
I'm seeing new adult romance and contemporary romance in coming of age. All Deborah Bladon's books are in coming of age. Then I see Neil Gaiman and Kathleen Grissom (The kitchen house) in there too.

It's a category that confuses me.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

It goes in erom.  Quit worrying and put your books where they belong.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> And let's not even get started on all the erotica in Women's Fiction. "Billionaire's Menage Secret Baby" isn't Women's Fiction by any stretch of the imagination. And this--really?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Pregnant-Steamy-Medical-Romance-ebook/dp/B00TUHBSMS
> 
> No. Not Women's Fiction.


Wow, that doctor story is ranked really high, but nope, not women's fiction unless it's a Grey's Anatomy episode. They have actually pulled that off a couple times.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

P.J. Post said:


> This tripped me up too. Even though my Punk series is about teens and, at its heart, is literally about coming of age, dealing with life and love, family, rebellion, morality and making sense of who we are after high school - I put an 18+ warning on it due to the darker elements, pervasive language and sexual themes, and categorized it in Romance and New Adult instead - even though I pushed the boundaries of those genres too.
> 
> I've since published the last book, deleted the warning and re-categorized the series to include coming of age, but after 9 months...eh, I think I messed up.
> 
> ...


This is what makes it difficult and confusing to know what should go into this category because growing up i saw coming of age stories that were about that transition from teen issues to young adult/adult issues. But then there's the YA and NA genres now so I don't know what the modern *coming of age * category means anymore. There's a mixture of stories in there including stories set in college, contemporary romance, new adult romance, a few erotic romance stories in there sometimes. Then there's Neil Gaiman and Mark Haddon (The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time).

As I said Deborah Bladon has all her books in this category and she's always at the top of the charts.

If anyone knows what the *coming of age* category means in this modern age, please explain.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Because it's instant visibility and they're hoping to make tons of money before Amazon deletes the titles.


Oh I understand what they are trying to do. I've seen an erotica fiction story in self-help. I had to laugh.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

katetanner said:


> Oh I understand what they are trying to do. I've seen an erotica fiction story in self-help. I had to laugh.


I will say it isn't always intentional. I've seen self help in erotica, too. Sometimes the key words you use can be right for your book, but someone else used a similar phrase and everybody gets lumped together. I asked another erotica writer about it and she said it happens all the time.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Yup, one of my first attempt was accidentally put into mystery, so I had to update my keywords.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> I will say it isn't always intentional. I've seen self help in erotica, too. Sometimes the key words you use can be right for your book, but someone else used a similar phrase and everybody gets lumped together. I asked another erotica writer about it and she said it happens all the time.


If you select erotica as your browse category Amazon will not allow your book into any categories outside of erotica, regardless of what keywords you use. When you see "My Daddy Got Me Pregnant" in inspirational fiction and sea stories, it's not because someone goofed up their keywords. I don't think you can accidentally get into erotica using just keywords, either. I think you have to explicitly select it as one of your browse categories.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Yup, one of my first attempt was accidentally put into mystery, so I had to update my keywords.


I always wonder why Amazon doesn't sort of put all erotica behind a virtual curtain where the customer has to key in erotica or hit an adult tab. I'd actually rather be confined to a place where people are looking for my type of book. That's better than offending someone. I don't want a Sunday school teacher stumbling across my stories. I don't want age play erotica popping up when I'm looking for children's books, either. As a parent I would have freaked out if that would have happened when my son was small and sitting on my lap shopping with me for his next book.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> If you select erotica as your browse category Amazon will not allow your book into any categories outside of erotica, regardless of what keywords you use. When you see "My Daddy Got Me Pregnant" in inspirational fiction and sea stories, it's not because someone goofed up their keywords. I don't think you can accidentally get into erotica using just keywords, either. I think you have to explicitly select it as one of your browse categories.


I didn't mean actually in the wrong category, I just said it wrong. I mean the search phrase is just bringing up a variety of results, not really in the wrong category. Like you could search self help and pull up some erotica. One phrase I searched has a ton of erotica and a book on sex education for grade school kids, I could see how that's a problem, but no one misplaced their books.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I will say it isn't always intentional. I've seen self help in erotica, too. Sometimes the key words you use can be right for your book, but someone else used a similar phrase and everybody gets lumped together. I asked another erotica writer about it and she said it happens all the time.


i don't think that's the case. I have seen erotica put in several categories where it just does not belong. When an author has chosen several categories including mystery, suspense and contemporary romance but the book is a straight erotica story, it's obvious the author is trying to get more visibility.

I understand that erotica authors are sometimes pushed into a secret corner and they can't get as much visibility as authors in other genres. I would still like to see Amazon create more categories/genres. Maybe a couple sub-categories in erotica and i cannot see an erotica category in kindle short reads, so there is some erotica in the romance category.

If Amazon is going to allow erotica authors to sell their books on their site, then give them more choices to be visible and to reach more readers.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I always wonder why Amazon doesn't sort of put all erotica behind a virtual curtain where the customer has to key in erotica or hit an adult tab. I'd actually rather be confined to a place where people are looking for my type of book. That's better than offending someone. I don't want a Sunday school teacher stumbling across my stories. I don't want age play erotica popping up when I'm looking for children's books, either. As a parent I would have freaked out if that would have happened when my son was small and sitting on my lap shopping with me for his next book.


Well my categories were actually women's fiction and biographies & memoirs so... Lol. But I did that due to the very specific way I wrote my story.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

katetanner said:


> i don't think that's the case. I have seen erotica put in several categories where it just does not belong. When an author has chosen several categories including mystery, suspense and contemporary romance but the book is a straight erotica story, it's obvious the author is trying to get more visibility.
> 
> I understand that erotica authors are sometimes pushed into a secret corner and they can't get as much visibility as authors in other genres. I would still like to see Amazon create more categories/genres. Maybe a couple sub-categories in erotica and i cannot see an erotica category in kindle short reads, so there is some erotica in the romance category.
> 
> If Amazon is going to allow erotica authors to sell their books on their site, then give them more choices to be visible and to reach more readers.


I think all erotica writers wish they could have more categories to choose from. I really don't see why we can't. Here's my concern with more detail. Not all customers shop category. So Grandma says Sally really did like those Twilight books, I'm going to search werewolves and vampires and see what I can find her. Right on the first page pops up a werewolves forbidden love book with a whole bunch of others just like it. Either Grandma will click the look inside feature and get offended at the content warning, or worse she'll think that girl and guy on the cover look a lot like Bella and that werewolve guy Sally likes and buy the book for Sally. Why? Because she's not thinking erotica books are going to show up in search like that. But that erotica writer didn't do anything to intentionally offend anyone. It's how the search works. I realize this isn't what you meant, but to me that's a huge problem. I don't actually want to be visible to people not looking for my erotica, but there's nothing I can do about it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Don't look for a vampire costume either. 

Now on erotica being self help well I guess it could be depending on what you want out of it.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Don't look for a vampire costume either.
> 
> Now on erotica being self help well I guess it could be depending on what you want out of it.


There's a sex education book for grade school kids that shows up with teacher student erotica, but with that said, I now have to go look for vampire costumes to see what pops up.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> There's a sex education book for grade school kids that shows up with teacher student erotica, but with that said, I now have to go look for vampire costumes to see what pops up.


What's sad is a fifth grade teacher once told her class you couldn't get diseases from Oral. Luckily some of the fifth graders came and told me. They were immediately handed a college textbook . Hey every one of those girls graduated before getting pregnant.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> What's sad is a fifth grade teacher once told her class you couldn't get diseases from Oral. Luckily some of the fifth graders came and told me. They were immediately handed a college textbook . Hey every one of those girls graduated before getting pregnant.


The scariest part is the fifth grade teacher was talking about oral.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I think all erotica writers wish they could have more categories to choose from. I really don't see why we can't. Here's my concern with more detail. Not all customers shop category. So Grandma says Sally really did like those Twilight books, I'm going to search werewolves and vampires and see what I can find her. Right on the first page pops up a werewolves forbidden love book with a whole bunch of others just like it. Either Grandma will click the look inside feature and get offended at the content warning, or worse she'll think that girl and guy on the cover look a lot like Bella and that werewolve guy Sally likes and buy the book for Sally. Why? Because she's not thinking erotica books are going to show up in search like that. But that erotica writer didn't do anything to intentionally offend anyone. It's how the search works. I realize this isn't what you meant, but to me that's a huge problem. I don't actually want to be visible to people not looking for my erotica, but there's nothing I can do about it.


I'm no good at the techy stuff but it puzzles me that Amazon allows erotica to be sold on their site then they lock these books up in a dungeon so erotica fans have to hunt to find them.
Erotica books sell like crazy so why can't Amazon find a way to put these books in front of the readers who want them without making them so visible to kids and people who dont want to see half naked women on the covers and are offended by incest stories. The problem i see on amazon is when i search for a freebie i see so much erotica pop up and i think wow if my young daughter and niece and nephew saw that, while innocently searching for a book. Maybe they can't do much about it and im asking too much of Amazon.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kate, it isn't a difficult problem from a programming standpoint. The fact that they do not do so means that they don't want to do it. Let's face it - sex sells, and they don't want to make the 2nd biggest selling genre significantly more difficult to find because it's one of the biggest draws into the Amazon store. And once people are in the store they tend to buy other things as well. So from time to time they make loud noises and protest that they're "doing something" to "protect the children" and such, but in reality they're just kicking the can down the road because it's a problem that to their bottom line really isn't a problem at all.

It's the same on Kobo and Google Play. They slap together vague content policies and police them in a totally arbitrary fashion until someone complains, then they make a big show of cleaning the content up for a little while until the noise dies down and then it's back to business as usual. They do the minimum possible so that they don't have to put that wall up to close off the erotica section because it's a freaking gold mine for them - almost pure profit any way you want to look at it.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> It goes in erom. Quit worrying and put your books where they belong.


This is bad advice.

Unless you're publishing in this genre, and have been for years (so you know how it's changed) it's completely useless to listen to a reader try and explain your business plan for marketing your romance, erotica, or erotic romance book on Amazon.

You should take this category thing very seriously if you want to sell books. If you write smut, stick it in erotica. You will sell better. If you write erotic romance stick it in romance. You will sell better. DO NOT put it in erotic romance under romance. It's the same thing a being in erotica. The erotic romance category is worthless. Use keywords to get into whatever sub genres they have.

I know this sucks for new writers because it's very hard to rank in romance, even if you sell a lot of books. It would be nice to be able to gain traction from erotica like you can in romance, but it's not possible for most people these days.

*If your book has a plot, it's romance. If you're writing smut, it's erotica. * _You know_ what you're writing - put in in the place where it will sell the most.
You do not have to have a HEA - it's in your best interest to have one, but if you put a little warning on it, readers will know.
You do not need a sexy cover to sell a romance. But if you have a smutty cover and put it in romance, you're missing your target audience. So don't do that. If you really think you have a romance and don't want it in erotica, then make sure you have a romance cover.
If you're writing a very steamy romance and want to ward off people who will "punish" you for putting it in romance, get rid of them in the blurb. Put in a few swear words.  Usually they pass your book over in disgust. There is an art to getting the right customer, and so there is an art in getting rid of the wrong customer too. 

What category to put your steamy romance in is a topic even bestsellers on Amazon still ponder. That's because it makes a huge difference in how your book plays out. Amazon changes the rules without warning, so by the time you notice you have typically already been targeted. (And that's how you know they changed the rules).

*EDIT to add *- they have recently changed the rules. I know. I sell a lot of books. I have sold a lot of books in both categories and right now, you do not want to be a romance in erotica. You will sell yourself short. It used to be that LOTS of steamy romances (topsellers) were in erotica - and you will see those same books still there. There's a reason for that. All you have to do is look at the rankings in the Top 20 for both Erotica and romance to see what's going on.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> The scariest part is the fifth grade teacher was talking about oral.


It was during sex education class.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

At peanut butter,
if you do not have an HEA or an HFN then it is not a romance.  Just having a plot does not make it a romance. 
By the way I know that author and have read her books.  They either go in erom or adult romance.  Oh and the big erotica publisher agrees with me or I agree with her on miss katrina46's books.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> At peanut butter,
> if you do not have an HEA or an HFN then it is not a romance. Just having a plot does not make it a romance.
> By the way I know that author and have read her books. They either go in erom or adult romance. Oh and the big erotica publisher agrees with me or I agree with her on miss katrina46's books.


I have 40,000 readers who disagree with you. I could care less what you think about it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am so happy for you.
But I was talking specifically about katrina46.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> I am so happy for you.
> But I was talking specifically about katrina46.


There is a reason self-publishers are so successful in romance. It's because they push all the limits and rewrite the rules. You can end your story anyway you want. I do advise a HEA, however you don't need one. Raw didn't have a HEA and as you can see from the reviews on Amazon, only a very minute percentage of readers ever cared. I don't think Raw was a great book - maybe a 4 from me. But it did have a great non-HEA ending that I loved. Readers want a story. Readers what YOUR story. If you write the end in a way that satisfies people, you did your job.

_~~~ edited to remove personal attacks - Admin._


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Raw by who please.
No only a minute number of readers reviewed it.
Now why don't we do each other a favor and put each other on ignore.
Oh and I would never tell certain authors how to write because I don't read their genre.  Well except maybe Hugh Howey because I am still waiting on him to write something I am not allergic too.


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## OW (Jul 9, 2014)

I'm a bit confused by this I must say, perhaps I'm missing something. 

Amazon allows you to pick two main categories does it not? Therefore they recognise that books may have story and content that fit's into more than on category. Are we saying here that there really can only be one category, or genre perhaps, and a book should stay there, regardless of what it is about. Or are we just talking about explicit books being safely stored away in Erotica, out of sight from anyone other than those who choose to seek them out?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

OW said:


> I'm a bit confused by this I must say, perhaps I'm missing something.
> 
> Amazon allows you to pick two main categories does it not? Therefore they recognise that books may have story and content that fit's into more than on category. Are we saying here that there really can only be one category, or genre perhaps, and a book should stay there, regardless of what it is about. Or are we just talking about explicit books being safely stored away in Erotica, out of sight from anyone other than those who choose to seek them out?


If you categorize your book as erotica, it can't be in any other category.

What we're talking about, though, is people deliberately putting their books in categories where they absolutely do not belong simply to goose their sales/ranks. This occurs both in and out of the erotica category.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> At peanut butter,
> if you do not have an HEA or an HFN then it is not a romance. Just having a plot does not make it a romance.
> By the way I know that author and have read her books. They either go in erom or adult romance. Oh and the big erotica publisher agrees with me or I agree with her on miss katrina46's books.


Yeah, I"m going into erom. I'm going to send you my cover now. It's doesn't say fluffy romance or smutty erotica. It's just edgy and kind of sexy. I think it totally conveys the story subject. I really like it.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> There is a reason self-publishers are so successful in romance. It's because they push all the limits and rewrite the rules. You can end your story anyway you want. I do advise a HEA, however you don't need one. Raw didn't have a HEA and as you can see from the reviews on Amazon, only a very minute percentage of readers ever cared. I don't think Raw was a great book - maybe a 4 from me. But it did have a great non-HEA ending that I loved. Readers want a story. Readers what YOUR story. Not Cinsajoy's view of what a story should be. If you write the end in a way that satisfies people, you did your job.


If you want to avoid one star reviews and ticked off romance readers, a book classified as romance should at least have a HFN if not a HEA. You can write a love story that does not end happily, but if you do, please do not put it in romance. That's not just Cin's view of what a story should be, it's part of the definition of the romance genre according to the RWA.

Regarding _Raw_, if it's the book that popped up when I entered the title into the search box, at least the author included a warning in the blurb that this was not a typical romance. The book still had 36 one star reviews and about as many two star reviews. It also had over 1000 positive reviews, which suggests that the author has a strong fanbase.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Romance readers want a focus on love, maybe some sex, and a happy ending?

Erotica readers want what exactly?


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

CJAnderson said:


> Romance readers want a focus on love, maybe some sex, and a happy ending?
> 
> Erotica readers want what exactly?


Romance is focussed on the development of a relationship with a positive ending. Inside this framework, you can have all sorts of subplots (see the various hybrid romance genres like romantic suspense or paranormal romance) and as much or as little sex as you like and the story demands. The sex content in romance runs the gamut from kisses only sweet romance to steaming hot erotic romance.

In erotica, the sex is central to the story. One partner, multiple partners and all sorts of combinations are possible and a happy ending is not required (except during the sex obviously). Erotica readers primarily seem to be interested in arousal. A lot of them have a specific kink or niche they are into.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Romance is focussed on the development of a relationship with a positive ending. Inside this framework, you can have all sorts of subplots (see the various hybrid romance genres like romantic suspense or paranormal romance) and as much or as little sex as you like and the story demands. The sex content in romance runs the gamut from kisses only sweet romance to steaming hot erotic romance.
> 
> In erotica, the sex is central to the story. One partner, multiple partners and all sorts of combinations are possible and a happy ending is not required (except during the sex obviously). Erotica readers primarily seem to be interested in arousal. A lot of them have a specific kink or niche they are into.


Cora,

Thanks for the info.

So to be categorized as Romance at Amazon, are there limits on the amounts and descriptions of sex?
Is it possible for a Romance story to cross the line when it comes to sexual content?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

CJAnderson said:


> So to be categorized as Romance at Amazon, are there limits on the amounts and descriptions of sex?
> Is it possible for a Romance story to cross the line when it comes to sexual content?


No, and no. They can enjoy whatever kind and however much sex they like as long as the main point of the story is the development of their romantic relationship, and at the end they get to live kinkily ever after. There are plenty of romance novels with lots of kink and explicit sex, but they never forget that in the end they are romance novels. If you're going to call it a romance you need to be able to pull out every single word of sex and still have a viable romance novel. If you can't, then what you've got probably isn't a romance.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> Cora,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> ...


if you read the books in the contemporary romance, new adult romance or erotic romance categories you will see a variety of books, some with little sex, some fade to black sex and some with very steamy descriptive sex.

I'd advice you to read some of the popular books and see what you prefer to write. Would you feel squeamish writing hot dirty descriptive sex scenes? Or would you prefer to write a scene where the characters get intimate, heavy kissing and touching but stop when it comes to them actually having sex. Like a movie when they cut just when the couple fall onto the bed or when they are rolling around kissing, then they wake up the next day and you know they've had sex but you didn't get to watch any of it.

Clean romance sells. So does hot steamy romance. So does kinky BDSM stories like 50 shades of grey. There is an audience for all types of romance.

Example - *Colleen Hoover* is popular in the new adult romance genre, she has never really written hot steamy sex scenes. *Kristen Proby* and *Katy Evans* are popular too, they write steamier stories. *JA Huss *and *Sylvia Day* write descriptive erotic romance. *JA Huss* even has BDSM stories that are a little darker.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

CJAnderson said:


> Cora,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> ...


The only thing I'd be careful with is explicitly described sex involving an underage character. Otherwise pretty much anything goes.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Hoover's latest, *Ugly Love*, has a few steamy sex scenes but it's nowhere near e-rom.

There are only two rules for romance: the main plot is focused on a couple's romantic relationship, and there is a HFN/HEA by the end of the series. That's it. It can be explicit as all hell or totally clean.

If you are confused about genres, look on iTunes where miscategorization is less of a problem. Or look for trad pub books. Still some miscategorization, but less.

But echoing Kate, you can really do anything between Colleen Hoover and Sylvia Day in terms of sexual content in romance. No matter what you do, some people will find it too hot or too tame. You can't please everyone.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks all for the great feedback!

My new  secret pen name appreciates it  too


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

oakwood said:


> I have always wanted to find a short and explanatory definition of HFN. Do the players have to stick together like in HEA?
> 
> If I and a chick bang each other romantically for a week in a story and then march away in different directions once we are satiated (without a fight) is that a HFN?


No. HFN just means that the couple is happy in a romantic relationship, but they could still be facing rough patches and there's no solid guarantee that they'll be able to live Happily Ever After. Think of it as the difference between a "classic" romance novel where the couple gets married at the end and a paranormal romance series (Kate Daniels, for instance) where at the end of each book the main characters are together, but you know they will face new challenges to their relationship in each book as the series plot arcs develop.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> Erotica readers want what exactly?


In the sense of short hardcore erotica, the reader wants to use the material for the purposes of sexual arousal.

One of the things that muddies this is that the kind of short erotica that sells very well on Amazon and a lot of people write is not really part of the traditional "what is romance and what is erotica" discussion. It's the kind of thing that used to be considered porn. You combine this with a far greater acceptance of sexuality in romance and the categories have shifted.

Short fetish erotica doesn't belong in women's fiction though and it's being put there to push sales.


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## JE_Owen (Feb 22, 2015)

Stephanie Marks said:


> I'm an urban fantasy writer but I've been working on some contemporary erom short stories in order to flex my writing muscles. It's been a real challenge but I'm likeing it. 2 of my shorts went live today under a pen name. I don't know if I'll ever CLAIM this pen name or how much work I will put into producing content for it, but it's definitely been a good learning experience.


I write epic YA fantasy myself, but I want to play in the contemporary romance genre because I'm a sucker for a love story. I'm happy to see other authors breaking out and flexing their muscles too. If you have any tips I'd love to hear them (not wanting to de-rail the thread, but feel free to PM me () ). I'm reading some novels to brush up on the genre expectations but I have a hard time breaking out of the epic save-the-world mentality XD


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

JE_Owen said:


> I write epic YA fantasy myself, but I want to play in the contemporary romance genre because I'm a sucker for a love story. I'm happy to see other authors breaking out and flexing their muscles too. If you have any tips I'd love to hear them (not wanting to de-rail the thread, but feel free to PM me () ). I'm reading some novels to brush up on the genre expectations but I have a hard time breaking out of the epic save-the-world mentality XD


Ok so I did decide to claim the pen name and it now has a place on my website with 3 shorts published. So far I've had borrows every day (ok that's only like... 3 days) and a single sale. I'm WAY too prawny to be giving advice about this other than.... Ummmm.... Keywords keywords keywords?

My first urban fantasy short story under my real name just went live about 20 minutes ago, so I'll have to see how it does. I can't lie though. I'm going to be REALLY choked if my "throw away tester pen name" work turns out to be more popular than the stuff I actually set out to write in the first place!

I mean, I'd understand it as my pen name was a hard core "write to market!!!!" test run while my urban fantasy is just... Me. With absolutely no writing "strategy" up my sleeve.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> You should take this category thing very seriously if you want to sell books. If you write smut, stick it in erotica. You will sell better.


If the smut being written is targeting a specific kink or niche, then sticking it in erotica definitely doesn't mean it will sell better. Books categorized in erotica will automatically have a lower ranking in keyword search results, and those keyword search results are critical to selling to a particular niche or kink.

The problem here is the way Amazon weights the keyword search results. There wouldn't be much of an incentive to list a PI gangbang short story in contemporary romance if the search results for "PI gangbang" weren't artificially altered to hide the listings from the erotica category. Amazon is rewarding authors targeting those keywords who aren't listed in erotica with more sales.


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## JE_Owen (Feb 22, 2015)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Ok so I did decide to claim the pen name and it now has a place on my website with 3 shorts published. So far I've had borrows every day (ok that's only like... 3 days) and a single sale. I'm WAY too prawny to be giving advice about this other than.... Ummmm.... Keywords keywords keywords?
> 
> My first urban fantasy short story under my real name just went live about 20 minutes ago, so I'll have to see how it does. I can't lie though. I'm going to be REALLY choked if my "throw away tester pen name" work turns out to be more popular than the stuff I actually set out to write in the first place!
> 
> I mean, I'd understand it as my pen name was a hard core "write to market!!!!" test run while my urban fantasy is just... Me. With absolutely no writing "strategy" up my sleeve.


Ha! Congrats on the publishing. I meant more about craft. Switching from fantasy mindset to the focus on relationships


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

JE_Owen said:


> Ha! Congrats on the publishing. I meant more about craft. Switching from fantasy mindset to the focus on relationships


Hmmm, that's not really what I did. There are all kinds of relationships in my fantasy writing. Let's see...

I started off trying to write erotica for the 7 day challenge but it didn't feel... grungy enough. Not that erotica has to be grungy, i just mean I felt like I was trying to force something unnatural for my writing style. Too many "feels" for a 3K word short. Which at that length is usually just spank bank material.

So I tried again, making the stories almost double the length, adding more plot and a second sex scene. And just let my characters be written the way I write them. I'm VERY new to writing short stories, I'm a novel length girl. But I found that so long as I stayed honest to my voice as a writer going from fantasy to erom wasn't that bad.


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## mish (Jun 27, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> No. HFN just means that the couple is happy in a romantic relationship, but they could still be facing rough patches and there's no solid guarantee that they'll be able to live Happily Ever After. Think of it as the difference between a "classic" romance novel where the couple gets married at the end and *a paranormal romance series (Kate Daniels, for instance)* where at the end of each book the main characters are together, but you know they will face new challenges to their relationship in each book as the series plot arcs develop.


Kate Daniels is *not* Paranormal Romance, it is Romantic Urban Fantasy. Sometimes also referred to as Urban Fantasy Romance (but I don't like that term because if it's called Whatever "Romance" than I--as a romance reader--will have the usual expectations of that genre). The endings of Kate Daniels books are not HFN. They didn't even get together until two or three books (can't remember exactly) into the series so couldn't possibly be even an HFN at that point. Even Ilona Andrews calls it Urban Fantasy. Chicagoland Vampires, Night Huntress, and Hidden Legacy series (regardless of what Avon books wants to miscategorize it as) are also Urban Fantasy with a romantic element but they are not actual Romance. Romantic does not equal Romance (as applied to the Romance genre).

A romance reader's .17 cents (adjusted for inflation)


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Thanks, Katrina. And I wanted to clarify in case you and others do this. I didn't unpublish. I just edited the content, changed keywords and changed categories. I wasn't sure what would happen if I unpublished and republished. Like would I lose the few reviews I had? So just updated instead.
> 
> Looks like the worst thing in doing it this way is I lost my also-Boughts (at least on the iPad, it's not showing any), but that's okay, because my AB's were all erotica anyway.


I haven't read your book yet since I've been working on one of mine, but I did just buy it. It might take a while to get to it. I downloaded Monique Martin's Out of Time a couple months ago and have only just now started it. Very good writer if you like horror with time travel, though. The first in the series is free, or was when I got it. I think it's a permafree, not sure though.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes, Monique's is permanent free.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I haven't read your book yet since I've been working on one of mine, but I did just buy it. It might take a while to get to it. I downloaded Monique Martin's Out of Time a couple months ago and have only just now started it. Very good writer if you like horror with time travel, though. The first in the series is free, or was when I got it. I think it's a permafree, not sure though.


I've read the first three of Monique's series. Great books! When I came on here after lurking awhile, I went all fan girl when I realized it was THE SAME Monique Martin.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> I've read the first three of Monique's series. Great books! When I came on here after lurking awhile, I went all fan girl when I realized it was THE SAME Monique Martin.


I only fan girled once in my life. One of my favorite actors lives here in Texas. I ran into him and of course I wanted to tell him I loved him on the show I watched, but it came out, "Oh, wow, you love me." Got an autograph, though. It was very unTexan of me. We're supposed to pretend we're unimpressed no matter who it is, but it was my all time favorite show. I've watched it for ten years, so I forgive myself.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I only fan girled once in my life. One of my favorite actors lives here in Texas. I ran into him and of course I wanted to tell him I loved him on the show I watched, but it came out, "Oh, wow, you love me." Got an autograph, though. It was very unTexan of me. We're supposed to pretend we're unimpressed no matter who it is, but it was my all time favorite show. I've watched it for ten years, so I forgive myself.


Hahahaha! I did som work with a certain very famous actor and was totally fine. But then last year I met Eliza Dusku and almost wet myself, lol


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Hahahaha! I did som work with a certain very famous actor and was totally fine. But then last year I met Eliza Dusku and almost wet myself, lol


Yeah, I loved Buffy. it was one of the guys from Supernatural I met. I guess I'm a die hard in that genre.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Yeah, I loved Buffy. it was one of the guys from Supernatural I met. I guess I'm a die hard in that genre.


I would have fangirled too. Especially if it was Jared Padelecki.


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## George Hamilton (Dec 14, 2010)

From her hospital bed, Jenny makes funeral arrangements with her father, then asks for Oliver. She tells him to not blame himself, insisting that he did not hold her back from music and it was worth it for the love they shared. Jenny's last wish is made when she asks him to embrace her tightly before she dies.
Love Story is a 1970 romantic drama film written by Erich Segal, who also authored the best-selling novel of the same name. A tragedy, the film is considered one of the most romantic of all time by the American Film Institute (#9 on the list). 

Did these guys missing the HFN or HEA ending affect their story?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

mish said:


> Kate Daniels is *not* Paranormal Romance, it is Romantic Urban Fantasy. Sometimes also referred to as Urban Fantasy Romance (but I don't like that term because if it's called Whatever "Romance" than I--as a romance reader--will have the usual expectations of that genre). The endings of Kate Daniels books are not HFN. They didn't even get together until two or three books (can't remember exactly) into the series so couldn't possibly be even an HFN at that point. Even Ilona Andrews calls it Urban Fantasy. Chicagoland Vampires, Night Huntress, and Hidden Legacy series (regardless of what Avon books wants to miscategorize it as) are also Urban Fantasy with a romantic element but they are not actual Romance. Romantic does not equal Romance (as applied to the Romance genre).
> 
> A romance reader's .17 cents (adjusted for inflation)


And this is why it's so easy to get yourself in trouble if you're not intimate with the genre you're writing in. I've got shelves of paranormal and urban fantasy sitting next to me (plus gobs more on my Kindle) and I just got pwned. Reader expectations are _important_.

It would be so helpful if Amazon would just let us pick the correct categories to put things in, instead of doing the automatic assignment using keywords. You could have much more fine-grained categories that way, because the current system would never support having both a paranormal fantasy and romantic urban fantasy subcategory due to the massive keyword overlap.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

George Hamilton said:


> From her hospital bed, Jenny makes funeral arrangements with her father, then asks for Oliver. She tells him to not blame himself, insisting that he did not hold her back from music and it was worth it for the love they shared. Jenny's last wish is made when she asks him to embrace her tightly before she dies.
> Love Story is a 1970 romantic drama film written by Erich Segal, who also authored the best-selling novel of the same name. A tragedy, the film is considered one of the most romantic of all time by the American Film Institute (#9 on the list).
> 
> Did these guys missing the HFN or HEA ending affect their story?


This silliness again? Love Story isn't considered Romance by anyone who knows anything about genre. It's never shelved in Romance anywhere. Romance writers/sellers/publishers/bookstore employees/Amazon--none of them considers it a Romance novel. Amazon, for whatever reason, does have it in Literary>Romance, but that is NOT the same thing as Romance by a long shot.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

SevenDays said:


> This silliness again? Love Story isn't considered Romance by anyone who knows anything about genre. It's never shelved in Romance anywhere. Romance writers/sellers/publishers/bookstore employees/Amazon--none of them considers it a Romance novel. Amazon, for whatever reason, does have it in Literary>Romance, but that is NOT the same thing as Romance by a long shot.


Exactly. Love story is just that, a "love story". Something can be romantic (little 'r') without being a Romance (big 'R').

I also don't understand when people say that erotica that has a plot is erotic romance. Good erotica has a plot! Erotica can be amazingly artistic. Erotica does not automatically equal 5 pages of wanking porn. *eyeroll*


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> This silliness again? Love Story isn't considered Romance by anyone who knows anything about genre. It's never shelved in Romance anywhere. Romance writers/sellers/publishers/bookstore employees/Amazon--none of them considers it a Romance novel. Amazon, for whatever reason, does have it in Literary>Romance, but that is NOT the same thing as Romance by a long shot.


This. Love Story is not a romance according to the contemporary genre definition. Neither are Nicholas Sparks, Gone with the Wind, The Fault in Our Stars, The Bridges of Madison County and Romeo and Juliet. Funny how they're all written by men, except Gone with the Wind.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> I would have fangirled too. Especially if it was Jared Padelecki.


That's who it was. He lives in Austin.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

cool katrina


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Do we know what the majority age group is for E-ROM readers?


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> That's who it was. He lives in Austin.


Oooohhh, I think I would have passed out! He's totally hot.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Funny, I just did a blog post about this. Sort of. The new step-craze is creating a loophole Amazon may ultimately close again. We shall see.
> 
> But it's getting kind of old, hearing people quote my advice (not you) from a year ago, after the huge Kobo porn purge (followed by Amazon's purge) that suddenly made erotica as a category a true "red light" district. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, and back then, yes I suggested putting erotica into the romance cats because Amazon was purging everything they could find in erotica. Now that erotica has it's own subcats, erotica should go into erotica.
> 
> Now, we've got the step-craze loophole. I think you can still write e-rom with steps and put them into romance and have them belong there. But I also think, as you say, many erotica writers who are writing far more hardcore stories, are just trying to shove them in there to get away with it. I don't blame people for wanting to cash in, but I've seen enough censorship from Amazon to feel when a storm's brewing. They opened a door. They may close it again. And it's not gonna be pretty.


I'm working on an erom right now. It's legit. A lot of my erotica is more literary anyway, but I do have some smut. Sadly, my smut has been doing much better in KU than the literary. Can I ask if you would suggest I start a new pen name for erom? Since I'm targeting new readers, I'm wondering if the smutty stuff will offend those looking for romance.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Adding to telracs post.
> Read the genre before attempting to write it. Most especially in those 3 distinct categories. Those genres have picky readers. They are also voracious readers. So lots of money to be had or lost.


Cinisjoy,

I don't see your books in your signature line, but would love to read them. Share a link, please?


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## C. C. Genovese (Jan 12, 2015)

I love reading these threads. I'm a fairly new erotica writer (3 novellas out now) and I've wondered many times whether I'm writing smut or erotica. My stories do have interesting characters (I hope you feel that way) and a story. It's not just the bow chika bow wow. So far it seems that no one has been offended or felt that I should get out of erotica. So I guess I'm in the right place. And writing it is so fun that I've considered writing some naughty versions of the dark fantasy books I have under a different pen name.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Hmmm, that's not really what I did. There are all kinds of relationships in my fantasy writing. Let's see...
> 
> I started off trying to write erotica for the 7 day challenge but it didn't feel... grungy enough. Not that erotica has to be grungy, i just mean I felt like I was trying to force something unnatural for my writing style. Too many "feels" for a 3K word short. Which at that length is usually just spank bank material.
> 
> So I tried again, making the stories almost double the length, adding more plot and a second sex scene. And just let my characters be written the way I write them. I'm VERY new to writing short stories, I'm a novel length girl. But I found that so long as I stayed honest to my voice as a writer going from fantasy to erom wasn't that bad.


That's what I discovered, too. Apparently I like the HEA endings and relationship stuff


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

That is because I just read every one else's.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

MirandaDean said:


> That's what I discovered, too. Apparently I like the HEA endings and relationship stuff


As long as you market it that way and differentiate it from the "spank bank" crowd there is a definite market for it and you can do quite well. My longer eroms/romantic erotica sell at least as well as the pure smut, and it tends to be a lot stickier. No pun intended.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> Oooohhh, I think I would have passed out! He's totally hot.


Yes,he is, but I"m actually more of a Dean girl. I've watched Jensen Ackles on Days of our Lives, Smallville, Dawson's Creek and Dark Angel, so I"m a long time fan. If it had been him I probably wouldn't have been able to speak. I think he's moving back to Texas, too, but we're a big state. Chances of running into him are not so good.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Yes,he is, but I"m actually more of a Dean girl. I've watched Jensen Ackles on Days of our Lives, Smallville, Dawson's Creek and Dark Angel, so I"m a long time fan. If it had been him I probably wouldn't have been able to speak. I think he's moving back to Texas, too, but we're a big state. Chances of running into him are not so good.


Oh don't get me started on Jensen Ackles, he is gorgeous and I'd find myself hot and bothered if I ever met him.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Funny, I just did a blog post about this. Sort of. The new step-craze is creating a loophole Amazon may ultimately close again. We shall see.
> 
> But it's getting kind of old, hearing people quote my advice (not you) from a year ago, after the huge Kobo porn purge (followed by Amazon's purge) that suddenly made erotica as a category a true "red light" district. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, and back then, yes I suggested putting erotica into the romance cats because Amazon was purging everything they could find in erotica. Now that erotica has it's own subcats, erotica should go into erotica.
> 
> Now, we've got the step-craze loophole. I think you can still write e-rom with steps and put them into romance and have them belong there. But I also think, as you say, many erotica writers who are writing far more hardcore stories, are just trying to shove them in there to get away with it. I don't blame people for wanting to cash in, but I've seen enough censorship from Amazon to feel when a storm's brewing. They opened a door. They may close it again. And it's not gonna be pretty.


I've said it before, I'd personally like to see the E-rom genre moved to the romance section because right now it is filled with hardcore taboo and gangbang erotic stories which clearly belong in erotica.

I don't see Amazon allowing all these clearly hardcore erotic stories to stay in e-rom or contemporary romance or women's fiction or new adult romance forever.

The problem is that a few writers i talk to are not sure if their story belongs in erotica or e-rom.

As I mentioned before I am confused by the modern *coming of age *genre because there are ya stories in there, as well as new adult romance and contemporary romance. Deborah Bladon does great in that category.

I'd still like to see Amazon add more sub genres within erotica and give those authors more visibility. It doesn't make sense to allow someone to sell their goods in your store but you hide their stuff under the counter.


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## fallswriter (Sep 11, 2012)

katetanner said:


> As I mentioned before I am confused by the modern *coming of age *genre because there are ya stories in there, as well as new adult romance and contemporary romance. Deborah Bladon does great in that category.
> 
> I'd still like to see Amazon add more sub genres within erotica and give those authors more visibility. It doesn't make sense to allow someone to sell their goods in your store but you hide their stuff under the counter.


A main problem is that Amazon is not a bookseller. They are a seller of products. They don't treat their categories like we treat them. "Coming of Age" used to be a category in Children's & Young Adult. The overall theme for CoA would be a character who goes through an experience that ultimately results in his/her learning a lesson and therefore becoming more aware or more mature because of it. Could New Adult and CoA be paired? I guess technically, they can. And they have. Having read Deborah Bladon's books, her protagonists do go through a profound change by the end of each book series caused by the romantic relationship. So she comes under the theme of Coming of Age that way. If Amazon wanted to keep CoA young adult, they would need to filter that. And they're not going to.

I'm with you in terms of more sub-categories! In all genres.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

fallswriter said:


> A main problem is that Amazon is not a bookseller. They are a seller of products. They don't treat their categories like we treat them. "Coming of Age" used to be a category in Children's & Young Adult. The overall theme for CoA would be a character who goes through an experience that ultimately results in his/her learning a lesson and therefore becoming more aware or more mature because of it. Could New Adult and CoA be paired? I guess technically, they can. And they have. Having read Deborah Bladon's books, her protagonists do go through a profound change by the end of each book series caused by the romantic relationship. So she comes under the theme of Coming of Age that way. If Amazon wanted to keep CoA young adult, they would need to filter that. And they're not going to.
> 
> I'm with you in terms of more sub-categories! In all genres.


So Erotic/Romance can be listed in CoA?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

CJAnderson said:


> So Erotic/Romance can be listed in CoA?


No.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

fallswriter said:


> A main problem is that Amazon is not a bookseller. They are a seller of products. They don't treat their categories like we treat them. "Coming of Age" used to be a category in Children's & Young Adult. The overall theme for CoA would be a character who goes through an experience that ultimately results in his/her learning a lesson and therefore becoming more aware or more mature because of it. Could New Adult and CoA be paired? I guess technically, they can. And they have. Having read Deborah Bladon's books, her protagonists do go through a profound change by the end of each book series caused by the romantic relationship. So she comes under the theme of Coming of Age that way. If Amazon wanted to keep CoA young adult, they would need to filter that. And they're not going to.
> 
> I'm with you in terms of more sub-categories! In all genres.


Yes I understand Amazon are not primarily a bookseller and I appreciate that they let me sell my little romance stories on their website. I'm just a demanding woman and I expect a little more. More categories, more ways to be visible, more ways to advertise effectively on a lower budget.

It's interesting how Coming of age has changed. Thank you for explaining what the modern COA genre is.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> Yes,he is, but I"m actually more of a Dean girl. I've watched Jensen Ackles on Days of our Lives, Smallville, Dawson's Creek and Dark Angel, so I"m a long time fan. If it had been him I probably wouldn't have been able to speak. I think he's moving back to Texas, too, but we're a big state. Chances of running into him are not so good.


Yes, Dean definitely has that bad-boy appeal. When I wrote my NA, my character was more Sam than Dean. Since that one didn't do so well, perhaps I should write my next NA with a character who is more Dean than Sam. That seems to be what sells better, and, besides, Dean's character is still smoking hot.


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

What exactly is the meaning of labeling Romance/Erotica with "BBW"?

Does this mean the author is BBW, the characters are BBW, or the intended reader is BBW? 

Or all of the above?

I see a lot of the books with "BBW" in the title and just wondering what the meaning is.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

CJAnderson said:


> What exactly is the meaning of labeling Romance/Erotica with "BBW"?
> 
> Does this mean the author is BBW, the characters are BBW, or the intended reader is BBW?
> 
> ...


*BBW* means Big Beautiful Women (or woman). It is a sub-genre in the romance or erotica genres. The women are curvy and beautiful. Sometimes the women in these stories don't know/realise how beautiful they are. Sometimes they are confident and proud of their curves.

There is also *BWWM* which means Black Woman White Man (Interracial relationship)


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> There is a reason self-publishers are so successful in romance. It's because they push all the limits and rewrite the rules. You can end your story anyway you want. I do advise a HEA, however you don't need one. Raw didn't have a HEA and as you can see from the reviews on Amazon, only a very minute percentage of readers ever cared. I don't think Raw was a great book - maybe a 4 from me. But it did have a great non-HEA ending that I loved. Readers want a story. Readers what YOUR story. If you write the end in a way that satisfies people, you did your job.
> 
> _~~~ edited to remove personal attacks - Admin._


I remembered this discussion on HEA endings in romance and i've just read a book that has a bit of a tragic ending with no HEA. I don't want to give away the title, i did not enjoy the book.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

I just feel like having a bit of a moan today.

I am searching through free romance and I am coming across a ton of taboo, erotic menage, kinky erotic stories and they are sitting in the wrong categories. They are in cont romance, women's fiction, paranormal romance, new adult romance. *Anything but erotica*. I am getting tired of it. I have to wade through hundreds of titles to find some genuine contemporary or new adult romance.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

katetanner said:


> I just feel like having a bit of a moan today.
> 
> I am searching through free romance and I am coming across a ton of taboo, erotic menage, kinky erotic stories and they are sitting in the wrong categories. They are in cont romance, women's fiction, paranormal romance, new adult romance. *Anything but erotica*. I am getting tired of it. I have to wade through hundreds of titles to find some genuine contemporary or new adult romance.


Yep, I said it again and again. As a huge romance reader, browsing in the kindle store has become useless. I used to love it. Used to go by publishing date and see what came out the last month or so. Its just pages of pages of stuff that is not romance. 
Lots of stuff is stuffed in there on purpose wrongly. It has gotten so bad now that I started sending feedback to amazon. I think maybe its time to start reporting stuff. If enough of my romance reader friends do it, maybe they'll do something.

For me what this has meant is sticking with publishers. Meaning, no self published romance unless I know the author already. I do my browsing now in books, not ebooks. Most of these erotica/porn stories don't have a paper version. It has ruined the browsing experience. I see it around the web how many romance readers are getting really peeved at this.

Time for some pushback.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Atunah said:


> Yep, I said it again and again. As a huge romance reader, browsing in the kindle store has become useless. I used to love it. Used to go by publishing date and see what came out the last month or so. Its just pages of pages of stuff that is not romance.
> Lots of stuff is stuffed in there on purpose wrongly. It has gotten so bad now that I started sending feedback to amazon. I think maybe its time to start reporting stuff. If enough of my romance reader friends do it, maybe they'll do something.
> 
> For me what this has meant is sticking with publishers. Meaning, no self published romance unless I know the author already. I do my browsing now in books, not ebooks. Most of these erotica/porn stories don't have a paper version. It has ruined the browsing experience. I see it around the web how many romance readers are getting really peeved at this.
> ...


I reported a book yesterday, sorry but as a reader (more than a writer) i dont want to see an erotic lactation book in romance.

I'm fed up of it now. 

I want authors to place their books where they belong. If you want more sub-categories for erotica or if you want amazon to stop putting your books in a dungeon then rally together and approach amazon about giving more visibility to erotic authors. It isn't right that a reader searching for a romance book has to wade through these books.


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## Chinmoy Mukherjee (Apr 26, 2014)

Erotica seems to have higher demand than Romantic novels.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

Online Books said:


> Erotica seems to have higher demand than Romantic novels.


No, Erotica authors are trying to get more visibility by putting their books in romance categories. Romance books usually stick around a little longer on the charts too. Short erotica can chart high and drop quite quickly. That's why you are seeing quite a few successful erotica authors now writing more romantic fiction.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Agreeing with Atunah and Kate.  Authors please put your books where they belong.  This is so your readers can find you.    If I want erotica,  I am not going to look in romance., so you are losing readers and upsetting others.


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## JessA (Jul 17, 2014)

I cannot tell you how much authors intentionally miscategorizing their books pisses me off.


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## sinapse (Apr 28, 2015)

I finally read down to the latest entries on this highly instructive thread. We're new, and launching two new erom series. Thanks to all commentators for your experiences and wisdom! 

I've been publishing online since 1999, but my other main professional background is in search, consumer apps development, and marketing. IMO, Atunah, cinisajoy, and katetanner have made concise statements immediately above that would make me sit up and take serious notice, were I the suit responsible for tweaking the Amazon "discovery" process.

Most of the discussion in this thread has (rightfully) revolved about the "where do I tell Amazon to place this" dilemma of ero-various authors. Since most KBoarders have a strong interest in earning a living from their writing, a main sub-thread involves the attempt by some authors to game the poorly structured hierarchies of the Amazon search machine in an effort to maximize exposure for ero-various shorts, most of which seem intended to exploit the KUnlimited borrows goldmine.

I am originally an economist, sucked into the black hole of software five decades ago, Turing help me, so I do NOT use words like "game", "exploit", "goldmine", or "maximize" with any pejorative intent whatsoever. I look at all processes as systems driven by survival or sensual gratification or economic motivations. It's not "good" or "bad"; just is.

Authors deserve to make money if they are deemed worthy by the markets they write for. A business built in significant degree on a mutually profitable partnership with those authors should ensure that the process for self-publishing and promotion is nothing short of perfect, fair, and responsive to the fast-changing tastes of the readers those authors serve.  

A business looking out for its long-term survival should ensure its customers can easily find the all the goods and services -- and romance novels, too -- they want, quickly and with minimum frustration. A search or so-called "discovery" system that leaves a large cadre of its *most frequent* users with a feeling of being misled, or actually denied access to what they seek, undermines its chances of long-term prosperity.

It may or may not be important to Amazon if KBoard authors and publishers like myself can position our content "correctly" according to inconstant, unclear, even contradictory "rules" and guidelines.

But Ms's Atunah cinisajoy, katetanner have called Amazon's attention to a cancerous threat to their relationship with, I'll hazard, a million or more paying customers. As a specialist in building services targeted at *paying* females, I know that these are the customers that Amazon has worked tirelessly to bring into its storefront. They have even created a profit-sucking service in KU to bring in still more, and convert them to an auto-renewing revenue base.  And yet, Amazon, famous for its willingness to risk hundreds of millions each year in process improvement, has invested little to facilitate the search process in recent years.

Listen up, Amazon: these KBoards *readers* are warning you that you continue to ignore the confusion inherent in your categorization and keyword/tagging scheme at your ultimate peril. With D2D shaping up as a viable access-point to the other online sellers, and with the two largest of those sellers (in financial and technical resources) strengthening their book-selling capabilities, you face a triple challenge, on a scale unseen in the past.

Google would like nothing more than to build its *direct* relationship with several million affluent female consumers. And Apple knows it needs to build its core customer base "out" if it desires continued rapid growth.

An attentive, smart, thriving business listens closely to its *smartest, best, and most loyal* customers. Atunah, cinisajoy, and katetanner are telling you, Mr, Bezos, that it's imperative to fix the search capabilities and features of your platform.

Do you hear these observant women of KBoard? Or are you too absorbed with blue sky opportunities up there in the Cloud?


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## TaxationIsTheft (Apr 15, 2015)

katetanner said:


> I am searching through free romance and I am coming across a ton of taboo, erotic menage, kinky erotic stories and they are sitting in the wrong categories. They are in cont romance, women's fiction, paranormal romance, new adult romance. *Anything but erotica*. I am getting tired of it. I have to wade through hundreds of titles to find some genuine contemporary or new adult romance.


Yup. I was searching through Romantic Comedy the other day and the vast majority of books were erom, erotica, menage, or stepbrother stories. Call me crazy, but when I search for Romantic Comedy I expect to see authors like Susan Elizabeth Phillips and Rachel Gibson--NOT something like "Bound By My Stepbrother" (I don't know if a book with that name actually exists, I just made something up that falls in line with what I was seeing). The same issue is popping up in Sports Romance, New Adult, Contemporary Romance, etc. I have nothing against erom--I used to write it and at one point was with an erom publisher--but as a reader AND a writer I really wish other writers would categorize their stories properly. It ticks off readers and it hurts all of us writers.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

AubreyGross said:


> Yup. I was searching through Romantic Comedy the other day and the vast majority of books were erom, erotica, menage, or stepbrother stories. Call me crazy, but when I search for Romantic Comedy I expect to see authors like Susan Elizabeth Phillips and Rachel Gibson--NOT something like "Bound By My Stepbrother" (I don't know if a book with that name actually exists, I just made something up that falls in line with what I was seeing). The same issue is popping up in Sports Romance, New Adult, Contemporary Romance, etc. I have nothing against erom--I used to write it and at one point was with an erom publisher--but as a reader AND a writer I really wish other writers would categorize their stories properly. It ticks off readers and it hurts all of us writers.


Yes, that is an actual book.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

AubreyGross said:


> Yup. I was searching through Romantic Comedy the other day and the vast majority of books were erom, erotica, menage, or stepbrother stories. Call me crazy, but when I search for Romantic Comedy I expect to see authors like Susan Elizabeth Phillips and Rachel Gibson--NOT something like "Bound By My Stepbrother" (I don't know if a book with that name actually exists, I just made something up that falls in line with what I was seeing). The same issue is popping up in Sports Romance, New Adult, Contemporary Romance, etc. I have nothing against erom--I used to write it and at one point was with an erom publisher--but as a reader AND a writer I really wish other writers would categorize their stories properly. It ticks off readers and it hurts all of us writers.


The stepbrother erotic romance and erotic stories are in every category now and ha funny there is a book titled 'bound by my stepbrother'.

Ok today i did a search and i added -stepbrother, -taboo, -bdsm -ageplay, -transgender and so on...... so i do not get any of those books in my search.


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## TaxationIsTheft (Apr 15, 2015)

All I can do is laugh that "Bound By My Stepbrother" is an actual book (talk about knowing erom title conventions!). The fact that they're in every category now is just ridiculous. I just did a search for "baseball romance," and while it took a few pages, I got a result that literally had this as part of the title: (Stepbrother Billionaire Menage Taboo Forbidden Secret Romance,Stepbrother's Rules Stepbrother Irresistible Stepbrother ... Women's Fiction Short Story Collection). Its categories get even more interesting, considering I doubt they're even remotely accurate.


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## katetanner (Mar 8, 2015)

AubreyGross said:


> All I can do is laugh that "Bound By My Stepbrother" is an actual book (talk about knowing erom title conventions!). The fact that they're in every category now is just ridiculous. I just did a search for "baseball romance," and while it took a few pages, I got a result that literally had this as part of the title: (Stepbrother Billionaire Menage Taboo Forbidden Secret Romance,Stepbrother's Rules Stepbrother Irresistible Stepbrother ... Women's Fiction Short Story Collection). Its categories get even more interesting, considering I doubt they're even remotely accurate.


That's what's irritating me, pure erotica is in every category. I had to add so many minus signs to get rid of everything i was not looking for. Amazon has to do something about this. 
Yes erotica authors need to sell their books/get exposure but not in the wrong categories.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katetanner said:


> That's what's irritating me, pure erotica is in every category. I had to add so many minus signs to get rid of everything i was not looking for. Amazon has to do something about this.
> Yes erotica authors need to sell their books/get exposure but not in the wrong categories.


This. This. And more this.


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