# Why Are Erotica Writers Unwelcome On Here?



## Lily Mia (Apr 24, 2012)

We write stories just like the rest of you people on here. We have a willing audience keen to buy erotica titles out there.
The only difference between erotica writers and most other writers is that we don't do fade to black, but write the parts of stories that people find interesting.

I understand that talking about aspects of our writing is not suitable for all venues and I accept that.

What I don't accept is writers taking pot-shots at erotica writers or erotica with no come back what so ever, worse still that silent sanction when this does occur.
Today I have come across a post which I won't quote, making fun of erotica covers and erotica pen names. A source of amusement readily spat out without any thought or consideration that most erotic writers are just as human as yourselves. I find it despicable that things like this carry on Kindleboards and seem to be acceptable. Yet dare say something about YOUR (non erotica) book and woe betide as the legions of righteousness gather in strength and numbers.

To hell with my pen name or the fact that this forum is Google indexed because it does not seem to wash with those user/authors that partake in this injustice. I hope some day someone Googles "Why Are Erotica Writers Unwelcome On Here?" and see's my protest and maybe they will take solace in the fact that we erotica writers do count, our stories, our craft does count as much as any other genre here.

The propensity and legitimacy to practice our craft should be respected as much as I respect genres that I find of little interest or value. Do I openly post disparaging views about such matters, no?

People come here to learn, catch up with news and trends in publishing amongst other reasons. I find it deeply offensive that one group of writers should be shunned or publicly insulted for nothing other than following their desire to publish what is a legitimate genre amongst every other genre represented on here.

I sincerely hope that people become aware of that most basic human right, "respect" when posting about erotica writers or their genre. 

Rant over.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I would guess there are as many erotica authors here as almost any other genre. Maybe more. 

I didn't see the comment you're referring to, so I can't comment on that.


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## Victoria lane &amp; R.T. Fox (Nov 10, 2009)

We have all types of writers (children to erotica), you are one of us.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

All authors and writers are welcome here as this is a *readers* forum and community.

Edward C. Patterson


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

If there weren't any erotica writers here - or at least people who write and publish erotica, which might not be the same thing - the two or three people who write nonfiction, and the handful of Christian fiction writers would get mighty lonely talking to themselves.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Lily--

I believe that KindleBoards and the majority of its members do not distinguish between erotica authors and other authors or other members (we do ask of everyone, erotica author or not, that language and images be within Forum Decorum). All authors, regardless of genre, are welcome here.

That being said, KindleBoards members are a diverse group, and occasionally someone will post something inappropriate. It happens but it doesn't mean it's acceptable. If you see a thread or post that you feel is inppropriate, please don't hesitate to report it so that we can review it. With over 2000 new posts a day, our five volunteer moderators do not read every single post and rely on member reports to find problems. I haven't seen the thread that you are speaking of, but will take a look around. It would help if you would report it or PM me.

As always, we ask that our members be respectful of each other. We are known as the "nice" Internet forum for a reason.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm fairly new around here, but I have not seen the unwelcome behavior that you refer to. I don't care what anyone writes as long as they take their work seriously.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I guess this one post has you all fired up, and I can't comment about that because I haven't seen it

Overall, though, I have to say I haven't seen a prejudice against erotica authors, or any genre for that matter, on this board.  Am I missing something?


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

I give your rant a three out of five stars. It was way too well-informed, well-written, and it lacked true profanity.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

<moderator pokes head in>

The usual reminder. . .if _anyone_ sees a post that they feel to be against forum decorum, including personal attacks, please use the report function to let us know. I don't know what comment prompted this response. . . I've certainly seen pokes at writers of pretty much all genres over the last few years. Seems like romance gets the worst of it. . . . but I've seen digs at paranormal as well.

In general, "Good fun" is fine, "Mean girl" is NOT OK, and personal attacks are right out. . . . . please report anything you feel crosses the line. We discuss all such reports and act as we feel is in the best interest of the Board as a whole.

<moderator wanders away>

edit: I see Betsy was poking her head in at the same time as me.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Why Are Erotica Writers Unwelcome On Here?

Not.

Maybe we all blind, but I've also seen no indication of what you are suggesting. Pity you didn't reference the post. Then I could pop over there, see what I think and maybe say what I think if I felt inclined to do so.


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## Scarlet Scrivener (Aug 30, 2011)

Lily Mia said:


> What I don't accept is writers taking pot-shots at erotica writers or erotica with no come back what so ever, worse still that silent sanction when this does occur.
> 
> People come here to learn, catch up with news and trends in publishing amongst other reasons. I find it deeply offensive that one group of writers should be shunned or publicly insulted for nothing other than following their desire to publish what is a legitimate genre amongst every other genre represented on here.
> 
> I sincerely hope that people become aware of that most basic human right, "respect" when posting about erotica writers or their genre.


I don't participate here often, partly because I'm busy working, but partly because when I do, I feel I'm met with hostility half the time. I started posting with regard to erotica and some of what I've experienced is nothing short of verbal violence, for lack of a better term. This occurred largely because I was defending erotica and writers, in general. And, the other running theme here is me posting an experience and others coming along and telling me it didn't really happen that way, I'm exaggerating, etc.

This is a really unfriendly board... and I'm an old-timer in terms of forums, far from being a newcomer. I know what forums can be like.

I hope I am proven wrong... but, I'm sure I'm going to get the usual reaction from this post. But, maybe it would do the people here some good to take what the OP is saying into consideration. It definitely has merit from my experience. And, it's a shame that things are this way.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Is this a common thing, Lily -- erotica authors feeling they're being made fun of If so, I'm sure the moderators will squelch it. They might just need the offending posts pointed out if they're buried inside long threads.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> edit: I see Betsy was poking her head in at the same time as me.


No, I was seven minutes earlier...


Again, folks, if you have a problem, please report it.

Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Lily Mia said:


> What I don't accept is writers taking pot-shots at erotica writers or erotica with no come back what so ever, worse still that silent sanction when this does occur.


Why didn't you provide a "come back"? You are being as silent as those you berate. If it means something to you, and clearly it does, stand up for it. Point it out. Say, I don't think that's cool. Otherwise, you're merely adding to the problem (as you see it). Have there been other comments? Did you call them out? Without knowing what's upset you, I can't really give more to the subject.


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

There can be some disparaging comments from time to time. For example when Paypal threatened Smashwords if they didn't remove erotica from its site. So, I can understand what the OP is saying.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Lily Mia said:


> We write stories just like the rest of you people on here. We have a willing audience keen to buy erotica titles out there...


Question. There are more than 1,726,005 posts on this forum, and you came to the conclusion that erotica writers aren't welcome based upon ONE negative post?


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## KindleKandy (Apr 9, 2012)

I lurked here for a long time and came back with a new account after losing the other ID.

I will chime in and hope for the best.

It has nothing to do with what you write. New people are not treated gently on this forum. There is a lot of good information, but it is buried very deep in sarcastic pile-ons that can feel like hostility, even hazing.

Mostly from a few people right on this thread, ironically.

I don't bother to post often for that reason. I read once or twice a month and bite my tongue. Why that atmosphere is encouraged I can't say, but I see a lot of newbies leave or take deep offense. My own response is just to make note of who the nasties are. I don't download or recommend their books and avoid them in general.

It isn't very nice or smart.


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## ShaunaG (Jun 16, 2011)

Confused.

I write both non-erotica and erotica. I've never been shunned or made fun of. I'm open with my real name and pen name *points at covers in signature*

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience though, that's a shame.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Lily Mia, take a deep breath.

Erotica writers are welcome here.
They just can't spell damn. They can spell arse, but not ass.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

ShaunaG said:


> I've never been shunned or made fun of.


My rates for shunning and public mocking are very competitive if anyone is feeling too included.

/helpful


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Erotica writers aren't welcome here? 

Crap.

I was going to start writing erotica, but I'd much rather be welcome here. (Actually it's a relief. Erotica is friggin' HARD to write...er...no pun intended...)


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

If that were true I wouldn't have so much fun looking at all the sigs.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No, I was seven minutes earlier...
> 
> 
> Again, folks, if you have a problem, please report it.
> ...


I just took longer to compose my post.  

As Betsy said. . . if you have a problem with a post. . .report it. . . .complaining about it in a thread like this doesn't help us figure out if there's something we need to deal with.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

As a non-erotica writer, I feel like I am teased and cattle-prodded frequently, but I must like it, because I keep coming back.  

The Cafe is a little like local weather though ... it can turn in a minute. Hang in there!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I hope it wasn't me that offended somehow. I love erotica writers, particularly their covers and avvys, and being the chauvenist pig that I am, often comment on them. But it's not a put down, it's just an uncontrollable appreciation of the female form. If it was me, sorry.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

D a l y a said:


> As a non-erotica writer, I feel like I am teased and cattle-prodded frequently, but I must like it, because I keep coming back.


Well, of course. Who wouldn't enjoy being teased and cattle prodded? Sheesh!

It's like I have to draw some folks a diagram, here.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I write erotic romance under a different name (well, two different names as of this week!), and although I keep that name separate and don't post under it here, I think everyone knows I write it. I haven't ever felt unwelcome here. If I've ever felt annoyed by anyone's posts, it was more as a romance writer than an erotic writer. There is the occasional condescending undercurrent to some posts about the romance genre, but that's typical almost anywhere, and I've mostly learned to ignore it. People also occasionally start threads bemoaning books with bad language and explicit sex, and I generally avoid those, because I know they are likely to annoy me. Some things really aren't worth arguing about.

Of course it's possible to run across the occasional post from someone who doesn't care for a particular genre and mocks it, but that doesn't mean writers of that genre aren't welcome here. Most people here are pretty amiable, and if they aren't the mods step on 'em.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Greg Banks said:


> Question. There are more than 1,726,005 posts on this forum, and you came to the conclusion that erotica writers aren't welcome based upon ONE negative post?


Greg, my friend, I read complaints like this, think back to my time at Lulu, and wonder if some folks have ever truly seen a flame war  

There are countless erotica authors on this site. You can't miss them. They are the ones with the book covers in the signatures featuring women grabbing their own asses or pushing up their boobs for the camera.   Can't virtually spit around here without hitting an erotica author. Between them and the romance authors (identified by the shirtless male torsos on the covers in their signatures), this place is practically CRAWLING with sexuality! CRAWLING I SAY!

If someone sees something that upsets them, there is a "report" function on the posts. Use it. I know it works, because Betsy gets reports all the time about me and has to go behind me and edit...oh...wait...what I meant was...on second thought, no, that is exactly what I meant. 

Just not seeing the widespread hating that is implied by the OP.


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## KindleKandy (Apr 9, 2012)

It can be even more confusing to readers (like myself) who don't write books. 

It really does feel like not only are the writers "running the show" but that the ops support them in doing it.

I forgot my old log-in from a while ago because I had not posted for months, and re-joined. It has gotten worse.

It's hard to figure out who did and did not mean to offend when so much offending is going on under the umbrella of "aren't we adorably sarcastic?"

No. You aren't.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

KindleKandy said:


> It's hard to figure out who did and did not mean to offend when so much offending is going on under the umbrella of "aren't we adorably sarcastic?"


Just assume we all mean to offend. You'll be good that way.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Betsy gets reports all the time about me and has to go behind me and edit...oh...wait...what I meant was...on second thought, no, that is exactly what I meant.


To be fair to the community at large, most of those "reports" were from me. I look for your posts, then report every one of them that I come across. My eventual hope is to have you banned from any and all human interaction so you become a crazy cat lady and I can get cute, fuzzy kittens from you in exchange for a kind word and a quarter.

So there.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> They are the ones with the book covers in the signatures featuring women grabbing their own *sses or pushing up their boobs for the camera.


I don't think we have enough of that. I'd like to see erotica authors push the envelope a little. Make the mods make some tough calls here.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Just assume we all mean to offend. You'll be good that way.


Dude, that was adorably sarcastic. You jerk.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Between them and the romance authors (identified by the shirtless male torsos on the covers in their signatures),...


Ahem. Monique Martin. Victorine Lieske. Anne Marie Novark. There are other romance authors on here who don't have shirtless male torsos. Let us not overgeneralize.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

EllenFisher said:


> Ahem. Monique Martin. Victorine Lieske. Anne Marie Novark. There are other romance authors on here who don't have shirtless male torsos. Let us not overgeneralize.


True. But I think most of the time, when you see a cover with a shirtless male model on it, it's a safe assumption that the story within falls under the "romance" umbrella. No?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Ahem. Monique Martin. Victorine Lieske. Anne Marie Novark. There are other romance authors on here who don't have shirtless male torsos. Let us not overgeneralize.


Just think how good their sales would be if they DID...


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Greg, my friend, I read complaints like this, think back to my time at Lulu, and wonder if some folks have ever truly seen a flame war  ...


Yes, and even Lulu was tame compared to some of the flame wars I've been through at the writer's site I used to help run.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

David McAfee said:


> To be fair to the community at large, most of those "reports" were from me. I look for your posts, then report every one of them that I come across. My eventual hope is to have you banned from any and all human interaction so you become a crazy cat lady and I can get cute, fuzzy kittens from you in exchange for a kind word and a quarter.
> 
> So there.


But there is a fundamental problem with your plan. Crazy cat ladies don't give away their cats. They HORDE THEM.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

EllenFisher said:


> Ahem. Monique Martin. Victorine Lieske. Anne Marie Novark. There are other romance authors on here who don't have shirtless male torsos. Let us not overgeneralize.


Ahem...so says the woman with a signature line DRIPPING with shirtless hunks.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But there is a fundamental problem with your plan. Crazy cat ladies don't give away their cats. They HORDE THEM.


Never once in my 38 and a half years of life have I laid claim to a reasonable amount of forethought.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Ahem...so says the woman with a signature line DRIPPING with shirtless hunks.


Obviously. My point being that you can't "identify" romance authors that way, as several ones who are far more prominent and well-known than I am don't have that sort of cover.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

EllenFisher said:


> Obviously. My point being that you can't "identify" romance authors that way, as several ones who are far more prominent and well-known than I am don't have that sort of cover.


See, now you are just trying to make sense. And we can't have any of THAT on the internet!


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> See, now you are just trying to make sense. And we can't have any of THAT on the internet!


I thought logic was illegal in cyberspace...?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

KindleKandy said:


> It can be even more confusing to readers (like myself) who don't write books.
> 
> It really does feel like not only are the writers "running the show" but that the ops support them in doing it.
> 
> ...


Well, to be fair, this is the WRITER's CAFE. . . .though non-authors are certainly welcome -- _everyone_ is welcome _anywhere_ -- we do tend to let folks here have a little more rope as far as discussions about things.

Because we do want it to be welcoming for them. . .there are very few other places where writers can interact with readers without getting their hands slapped. . . even other boards here they are not supposed to self-promote. And I know that's hard for a lot of them to hold back from.  Folks have opinions. . . .sometimes opposing, and we tend to let the discussions continue unless it becomes mean spirited. We keep a pretty close eye on things -- have virtual stalkers in place for some of you, honestly  -- but rely on member reports to let us know in many cases because there are a TON of threads here. There are only a half dozen of us and . . . well, way more than that of YOU. 

That said. . .yeah, sometimes I think some of the posts are boarderline. There are a number of things that the mod squad as a whole has deemed acceptable that I personally thought smacked of bullying and cliquish behavior. And other times it went the other way. Some things are obvious and sometimes it's a judgement call and sometimes, honestly, by the time we get to the problem, you all have put on your big kids clothes and sorted it out yourselves.

At bottom, this is the only forum that I've ever been able to stand being a part of for any length of time. In general I've found them 'no holds barrred' which is just ridiculous to put oneself through, or the rules are so tight that no one dares say "boo" and they die a lingering death. I think we've got a pretty good balance here, really.

So, again, if you see a post that is in appropriate, please report it.

And try to behave like people who are adult humans and not high school girls -- which I can say because I've been both things.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie and Ellen, I think it's easy to tell which of the titles in my signature is the erotica


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> Never once in my 38 and a half years of life have I laid claim to a reasonable amount of forethought.


You're 38 and a half years old? That's pretty old. Just sayin'. 

*Notice naked torsos in my signature line*


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

David McAfee said:


> I thought logic was illegal in cyberspace...?


Which would explain yout cat lady plan being flawed...


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Belonging to an erotica only forum vs. this one, no, KB is not particularly open to the sexy. You won't find much help marketing or discussing trends--it would all violate the TOS. Like any other niche, it has its own ins and outs and that discussion is stifled, if not mocked here.

Therefore many of us go elsewhere to network. Want to network with the movers and shakers in erotica? Twitter.

I check in here every so often just to see if anything important is going on and that's about it.
M


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Honestly, I've never noticed erotica authors aren't just as accepted here as any other authors. I've seen the occasional poke at romance writers - especially paranormal romance - but I'm used to seeing that and assume a certain amount of it is bitter grapes at the popularity of a genre that's not ours. I'm certainly guilty of feeling a slight envy when I see a genre I don't care for doing extremely well.  But I can't tell erotica gets mocked more than any other genre. Try telling some people you love fantasy and see if they don't give you a hard time. Try telling some literary writers you write genre fiction (or the other way around, I'm sure). I think KB does a pretty good job of respecting all genres equally or failing that, at mocking all of them with an even hand.


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## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

What was that one line from _Don't Tell Her It's Me_?

"I'm a romance author. We're used to condescension and insults."


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## JacksonJones (Feb 20, 2012)

Hey, maybe I'm the offending offender! I recently wrote a post in response to Rashad Freeman's thread "Why won't this book sell" that might possibly qualify. Here's the post:



> Rashad, if the majority real estate of your cover featured a naked, tautly muscled female abdomen with the corresponding upper, pneumatic portions of the torso encased in a tight, abbreviated shirt, then you'll definitely have a genuine hit on your hands. Also, if you added either a zombie, a werewolf or a vampire to the cover, perhaps standing just behind the feature female and dressed in fashionable attire, your sales will increase even more. Furthermore, if you changed your name to something like Kitty Deluxxe or Tawny Gurrl or Lexy Divine, then your sales would skyrocket.


I was attempting to poke fun at several genres at one go. I'm all about equal opportunity.
Romance: naked abdomen with upper torso clothed (I figure Romance would have the partial clothing, Erotica would not)
Urban Fantasy: inclusion of zombie, werewolf or vampire
Erotica: author name change options

You will notice, however, the inferred back-handed compliment--these genres make money.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> See, now you are just trying to make sense. And we can't have any of THAT on the internet!


Julie dear witchywoman: It took me MONTHS to teach you how to spell "definite" without an "a." Please note that "Internet" is always capitalized.

And be advised I will be offering a grad level class on Moderator Squelching. Whips & chains required.

_<Don't let him charge you for it, as he really isn't very good at mod squelching.  but very humorous, LOL!--Betsy>_


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Julie and Ellen, I think it's easy to tell which of the titles in my signature is the erotica


Road to Hell?


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

KindleKandy said:


> It can be even more confusing to readers (like myself) who don't write books.
> 
> It really does feel like not only are the writers "running the show" but that the ops support them in doing it.
> 
> ...


While I don't see any difference of how different genre authors are treated here, I can totally understand this comment and even agree with it to an extent. When I first came here I was almost disgusted enough to leave right away because of the rampant bullying and sarcasm. Luckily a few voices of reason by other members stepped in (as they usually do) and I decided to give it a chance. I still do not like to get involved in most debates because in my opinion, most posters come away from them having made an ass of themself. The debates start out sometimes with a thoughtful question or statement but you get drive-by comments that quickly turn it into a thread of insanity that I don't want my name linked to. [ahem.....case in point...how did we get to a debate about shirtless dudes from a real concern]

I am not totally innocent of sarcasm. I'm sure some comments can be pulled up by me that would make me cringe. But I will say that I try very hard now to ignore the caustic remarks and downright ugliness that can quickly get out of control. Even if we are considered the 'nice forum'....and I think that some of the main culprits have tamed their nasty lately, we can always strive to treat each other with respect. Writers, readers, flame throwers or stalkers...we are all human.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

MikeAngel said:


> Whips & chains required.


Promises, promises...


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Julie and Ellen, I think it's easy to tell which of the titles in my signature is the erotica


Yeah. I had to take a cold shower after reading _Road to Hell_!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

I like sexy books.  I don't read em much, but I like em anyway.  Especially the covers.

Shout out to Todd Young's JUMBO!

JUMBO, BABY!!!!


I must admit to shivering a bit at the incest books though.  *shudder*  But still, a writer's a writer!  Come one, come all!  (get it? get it?  pun intended!)


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

jnfr said:


> Road to Hell?


lmfao!!! That's funny on about 12 levels.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

LilianaHart said:


> You're 38 and a half years old? That's pretty old. Just sayin'.
> 
> *Notice naked torsos in my signature line*


Yeah, I know. Sometimes I have a hard time seeing my keyboard through my big, bushy eyebrows. Then other times my long white beard covers it up and I have to go and get a pair of scissors to cut it. To date, I have yet to succeed in cutting the beard because I always seem to forget what I needed the scissors for.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But there is a fundamental problem with your plan. Crazy cat ladies don't give away their cats. They HORDE THEM.


I know it's a typo (and I make a lot of them!) but I love the mental image of a crazy cat lady raising a sword while a pack of cats swarm into battle in front of her. 

(Ideally while wearing teeny-tiny armour.)

http://www.educationbug.org/a/hoard-vs-horde.html


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Romance: naked abdomen with upper torso clothed (I figure Romance would have the partial clothing, Erotica would not)
> Urban Fantasy: inclusion of zombie, werewolf or vampire
> Erotica: author name change options


I don't know if this is what the OP is referring to, but frankly, this is the sort of comment that I was referring to when I mentioned condescension toward romance authors. Nothing in this world ticks me off more than someone suggesting that the only reason I (or other romance authors) sell books is because I have nude guys on my covers. I'm not saying it doesn't help, but if I sell books, it's because I_'m a good romance writer_. I also don't love comments suggesting that my paranormal romances sell because I have wolfies or leopards on the covers. Again, it's the writing that matters. Covers are important, but if you put a sexy cover on cr*p it's still likely to sell like cr*p.



> if the majority real estate of your cover featured a naked, tautly muscled female abdomen with the corresponding upper, pneumatic portions of the torso encased in a tight, abbreviated shirt, then you'll definitely have a genuine hit on your hands.


And actually, this sounds more like erotica than romance to me. Or maybe some sorts of fantasy? You don't see a lot of tautly muscled female abs on romances, except maybe sci-fi romances or romantic suspense.



> Furthermore, if you changed your name to something like Kitty Deluxxe or Tawny Gurrl or Lexy Divine, then your sales would skyrocket.


Do names like this actually sell books? All they do for me is make me laugh uncontrollably.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I know it's a typo (and I make a lot of them!) but I love the mental image of a crazy cat lady raising a sword while a pack of cats swarm into battle in front of her.
> 
> (Ideally while wearing teeny-tiny armour.)
> 
> http://www.educationbug.org/a/hoard-vs-horde.html


You realize, of course, that I just ruined my laptop. I laughed so hard I spit Coholate-flavored Ensure all over the screen. I...

Um...hold on. I gotta go get some scissors...


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I know it's a typo (and I make a lot of them!) but I love the mental image of a crazy cat lady raising a sword while a pack of cats swarm into battle in front of her.
> 
> (Ideally while wearing teeny-tiny armour.)


Hmmm, and here I thought "horde" was the correct term for a group of cats. Sort of like "murder of crows."


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Hmmm, and here I thought "horde" was the correct term for a group of cats. Sort of like "murder of crows."


Better than who....you know what? I'm not even going to finish that sentence. Yep. It's too bad even for _me._


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

So. .  .Julie. . . .David. . . .I'm pretty sure this is what people mean when they say they aren't taken seriously and feel like they're being made fun of. . .and so decide it's not worth it. 

Do I think erotic writers are treated badly?  No worse than other genre writers.  

Is that o.k.?  Probably not. . . but people will generalize.  That's why there are genres, after all.  

I do think some of you "in group" can be kind of 'mean girl' when a relatively new member asks something that's been asked and answered multiple times previously.  It's not nice.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Yeah, I've definitely seen David go all "mean girl"..


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> So. . .Julie. . . .David. . . .I'm pretty sure this is what people mean when they say they aren't taken seriously and feel like they're being made fun of. . .and so decide it's not worth it.
> 
> Do I think erotic writers are treated badly? No worse than other genre writers.
> 
> ...


You know, I was going to come back and say that I was just trying to lighten the mood, but you are right. I can see why it would seem like a newbie would read my posts and think they are not being taken seriously.

That said, I invite anyone here who is unfamiliar with me to read any other posts of mine in the KB. I'm sure it will not take long to see that I treat almost every subject, genre, and idea in the same lighthearted, trying-to-be-funny manner.

Apologies to anyone who may feel my responses belittled them or their chosen genre.

--David out.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

Whether you agree with the OP's premise or not, her concern is very real and I thank those who've addressed the concern.  I don't want this thread to become a nonsense thread, we have enough of those.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, I've definitely seen David go all "mean girl"..


See, but that sort of comment isn't particularly nice either, is it? There are clearly some people who feel like they are ignored and/or made fun of. And a lot of the responses in this thread pretty much prove their point, I'm sorry to say.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> You know, I was going to come back and say that I was just trying to lighten the mood, but you are right. I can see why it would seem like a newbie would read my posts and think they are not being taken seriously.
> 
> That said, I invite anyone here who is unfamiliar with me to read any other posts of mine in the KB. I'm sure it will not take long to see that I treat almost every subject, genre, and idea in the same lighthearted, trying-to-be-funny manner.
> 
> ...


David, you are a class act. I like your banter, and I hope the comment from Ann doesn't stop you from lightening the mood in the future. I agree with what she said, but I also think mood-lightening is needed around here sometimes. I am guilty of jumping in to do that from time to time too, and I'd hate to feel unwelcome over it.


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## Lisa Scott (Apr 4, 2011)

Lily Mia said:


> We write stories just like the rest of you people on here. We have a willing audience keen to buy erotica titles out there.
> The only difference between erotica writers and most other writers is that we don't do fade to black, but write the parts of stories that people find interesting.
> 
> I understand that talking about aspects of our writing is not suitable for all venues and I accept that.
> ...


Lily, I'm sorry you feel this way. This is usually a great place, but sometimes there are nasty threads or responses that I think have an unnecessary amount of snark, sarcasm, and meanness, especially toward newbies. It can be intimidating to jump into a new forum, and I do wonder how many people have popped in to say hi and never come back. However, there is so much great, helpful information in this forum and generous people (many who I now consider to be friends) that it's definitely worth hanging around. Hopefully, you'll find some useful information and support here.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ellecasey said:


> David, you are a class act. I like your banter, and I hope the comment from Ann doesn't stop you from lightening the mood in the future. I agree with what she said, but I also think mood-lightening is needed around here sometimes. I am guilty of jumping in to do that from time to time too, and I'd hate to feel unwelcome over it.


FWIW banter is great. . . I _love_ banter. _At the right time!_ 

But when someone brings up a topic that is important to them and within half a dozen posts it has degenerated into the usual silliness. . .well. . .that's not nice. There's just no other way to say it. It _will_ feel, to the OP, like what they think is NOT important and they're going to feel hurt.

I think there are some folks here who really don't get that. 

And, as Betsy says. . .we have enough nonsense threads.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I know it's a typo (and I make a lot of them!) but I love the mental image of a crazy cat lady raising a sword while a pack of cats swarm into battle in front of her.
> 
> (Ideally while wearing teeny-tiny armour.)
> 
> http://www.educationbug.org/a/hoard-vs-horde.html


Check out cat armor here: http://www.geekologie.com/2008/02/post-6.php

Sorry. Couldn't resist the teeny-tiny armor. Bad timing.

Yes, there is a prevailing culture here of ignore and trivialize. Not sure what we can do about that. Writing is such a lonely hard thankless and usually poorly paid task that I'd guess most of us just drop in here to goof off and chuckle in the company of like-minded people unfound in our day-to-day reality. A quiet room, a keyboard, a blank wall. All day every day. Wrestling with tricky ideas and alien minds. Nope, don;t much feel inclined to take anything seriously when I drop in here. Often I'll think to respond to a post, even write something, but know I'll have missed the moment and the topic will have moved on or will likely be ignored, and so delete post and just read on a bit, looking for the funnies.

Going to go here now and read some funny cartoons: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff600/fv00515.htm


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> See, but that sort of comment isn't particularly nice either, is it? There are clearly some people who feel like they are ignored and/or made fun of. And a lot of the responses in this thread pretty much prove their point, I'm sorry to say.


Yes, but that will always be true on every forum. Unless you're going to micro-moderate every thread, then you have to be able to recognize when people are just being silly or just trying to lighten the mood. I just don't think it's fair to say that the posts here are proving any points if the intentions of those posts are being misread. You can't interact on an Internet forum if you have a thin skin because almost anything posted can be misinterpreted depending upon the interpreter's frame of mind at the time. I still do it and I've been on the Net for like 18 years.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> See, but that sort of comment isn't particularly nice either, is it? There are clearly some people who feel like they are ignored and/or made fun of. And a lot of the responses in this thread pretty much prove their point, I'm sorry to say.


He started it! 

If we really want to get serious, then we'd have to talk about sex and how it's perceived. There's a part of society that still considers it "dirty", and there's a part that believes it's not something to be discussed, let alone written about, and that those who engage in the practice aren't real authors. We all know that. Erotica is look down upon by many authors as "smut", which causes all kinds of problems on forums that aren't exclusively erotica, or that are frequented by people who don't tollerate it. There was a big rift on a critique site that's often recommended here, that resulted in the expulsion of several erotica authors. We had countless arguments over it. You can't change the way people feel about it. There are people out there who look down on it, and no pleading post on a thread like this will will change the heart of those who feel that way. And it also leads to a lot of quips, mostly because sex is fun. It's fun to talk about, it's fun to joke about, it's just a party. Asking everyone to be respectful is great, but the only solution to someone's feelings getting hurt is for the person who's offended to report the offensive post to the mods. Soooo, I feel like this is your problem.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Dara England said:


> Honestly, I've never noticed erotica authors aren't just as accepted here as any other authors. I've seen the occasional poke at romance writers - especially paranormal romance - but I'm used to seeing that and assume a certain amount of it is bitter grapes at the popularity of a genre that's not ours. I'm certainly guilty of feeling a slight envy when I see a genre I don't care for doing extremely well. But I can't tell erotica gets mocked more than any other genre. Try telling some people you love fantasy and see if they don't give you a hard time. Try telling some literary writers you write genre fiction (or the other way around, I'm sure). I think KB does a pretty good job of respecting all genres equally or failing that, at mocking all of them with an even hand.


The distinction is the genres you mention tend not to violate the TOS and there's not much moral outrage behind any rancor. Erotica gets it on all sides, jealousy, morality, TOS.

To be frank, erotica writers have inside KB jokes. Where does that arise from? Not in a vacuum.

Every board has its own culture. I'm not saying anyone needs to do anything, but the OP is not alone in her experience here.And again, I advise erotica authors to look elsewhere.

With regards to another poster's comment on incest. I don't care for it either, but some very talented authors write it, and, out of respect to them, I took the time to understand the psychology of the kink. I won't be a reader, but I'll never be a critic either.

M


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

What seems like "lightening the mood" to some seems like "blowing off my concerns" to others. Believe me, I get the PMs.  Would that I saw some of this mood lightening in threads about responding to reviewers....

Betsy


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

If it wasn't for sex, I wouldn't be here today... can't speak for other members of this forum.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

EDIT: Nope. Changed my mind and am not gonna say it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Greg Banks said:


> Yes, but that will always be true on every forum. Unless you're going to micro-moderate every thread, then you have to be able to recognize when people are just being silly or just trying to lighten the mood. I just don't think it's fair to say that the posts here are proving any points if the intentions of those posts are being misread. You can't interact on an Internet forum if you have a thin skin because almost anything posted can be misinterpreted depending upon the interpreter's frame of mind at the time. I still do it and I've been on the Net for like 18 years.


I'm not trying to moderate anyone. . . I'm just asking that people think a minute before they post. . . 

But I fully agree that it's also the _reader's_ responsibility to accept the limitations of a forum post and not freak out over every perceived slight. Most of the time it was not personally directed at YOU nor was it posted with any meanness. Hard sometimes, to distinguish mean from passionate without liberal use of smilies! 

Again, I think we do maintain a pretty good balance here. And, just to clarify,I think _most_ of our members are genuinely courteous and generally make an effort to post that way. But I don't think it's a bad thing to periodically encourage all of us to remember that it's real people at the other side of the keyboard.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm not trying to moderate anyone. . .


Darn it, Ann....it's too hard not to comment when you post stuff like that. Stop doing it, or I'm not going to be able to hold myself back from making a McAfeeism...

On topic, I have never noticed any bias against erotica writers here. But then, I'm not an erotica writer, so I probably don't pay as much attention to that sort of thing as someone who writes it. Hopefully I have never said or done anything to make people think I dislike erotica or think it's cr*p. Heck, I write vampire novels. How much room would I have to talk about literary merit?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> EDIT: Nope. Changed my mind and am not gonna say it.


Wimp..I'm sorry, that was mean. I meant to say, you're a wise man.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Wimp..I'm sorry, that was mean. I meant to say, you're a wise man.


It's so nice to see someone use "you're" correctly. Text messaging and facebook have killed the English language, methinks.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> Heck, I write vampire novels. How much room would I have to talk about literary merit?


You know, on some level, vampire novels can take a heavier hit that erotica. In the rush of them after Twilight, it was brutal. At least erotica authors aren't accused of plagiarism, but in the wake of Twilight, pretty much every author who wrote about vamps was accused of plagiarism.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

As an erotica writer, I can say that I have never felt unwelcome on the Kindleboards.  There is a snarky comment or two now and then, but they do tend to be few and far between and most of those are in threads I wouldn't frequent anyway.  I have seen much, much worse on other boards.  The Amazon author's board had a thread once that had nearly 200 posts on it titled something to the effect of "Does it bother you to be associated with the trash?" in reference to erotica books posted on Amazon.  Those comments were downright unpleasant.  I've never seen anything like that here, not even close.

My experience is that you're as welcome as you make yourself.  Participate appropriately and relevantly, and accept that you're in a genre that everyone doesn't approve of.  You're not going to be invited to every blog, you're not going to be welcome in every critique group, and you may just run across the occasional snarky remark.  Shrug it off.  Life's too short to let stuff like this take up free rent in your head.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Back on topic 

One of the problems we have in moderating. . .well. . . .moderately. . . .is cover images and language. We do want to be a board that people won't mind letting their kids browse. Or that they can look at at work without getting in trouble. The language filters will work. . . .and we ask that folks who are going to post explicit excerpts, or who have threads for explicit books, make that clear in the post/thread title, so those who are not interested can avoid it. If you don't we might edit it.

We'll also sometimes switch a cover link to a text link in the body of a post so that people won't come across something questionable unawares. Betsy and I have each had conversations with various members who write erotica and who realize that their titles or covers might be outside 'forum decorum'. We work with 'em to get something that we can live with.

And we still get reports! 

A lot of the reports we get are about images in signatures. We've discussed them _many_ times in the secret mod cave! If we think an image is too much, we let the author know and, again, work with them. We also advise members who are concerned about signature images to either turn them off -- which you can do in your profile -- or use an Adblock extension with your browser which will let you block specific images.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Heck, I write vampire novels. How much room would I have to talk about literary merit?


The truth is that most of us run into disdain for our chosen genre occasionally. As I've said, romance writers get whacked on a bit, often by people who don't even realize they're being condescending (the dated term "bodice ripper" gets thrown around a lot by people who don't know better, for example). Literary writers get told their genre is incomprehensible or boring. Science fiction and fantasy are, of course, only read by bespectacled geeks. Erotica gets derided as "mommy porn." And so forth and so on. Sometimes it's best just to close a thread that irritates you and move on.

I suspect it's more difficult for erotica writers, though, because there are quite a few subgenres of erotica that can make people uncomfortable. Incest, BSDM, LGBT-- all these things tend to be somewhat controversial. Witness _50 Shades of Grey_, which is in my opinion extraordinarily watered-down erotic romance, but which has managed to get itself banned from several library systems anyway. If that upsets people, then naturally a frank discussion of, say, erotica about incest is likely to cause an uproar on many forums.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> You know, on some level, vampire novels can take a heavier hit that erotica. In the rush of them after Twilight, it was brutal. At least erotica authors aren't accused of plagiarism, but in the wake of Twilight, pretty much every author who wrote about vamps was accused of plagiarism.


True enough. It got to the point where I was almost ashamed to tell people what my books were about. There was (and still is) such a glut of vampire fiction that many agents wouldn't even look at it for a while, there. That's pretty much what made me go indie in the first place.

But I don't think that is the case for erotica. When I look through agent websites and guidelines, I see many of them are actively seeking well-wriiten erotic works. So I think the bias may just be from the authorial community rather than the publishing world.

But then again, I really don't have any experience trying to place erotica, so my suppositions are probably innacurate. To date I have only written one sex scene that I would call explicit, and I shudder every time I read it. When I said it is hard to write erotica (despite the "pun" comment) I wasn't kidding. Some people just don't have the make-up to write sex well. I certainly don't.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

To get back to the OP's concern, I again encourage people to report posts that they think are inappropriate.  Does that mean we will always intervene?  No.  But we will take a look and discuss in the secret admin cave.  Sometimes we will edit, sometimes we will comment, and sometimes we will do nothing.  Sometimes people WILL take offense at things that are innocent enough and sometimes people will push the limits.  Sometimes we are too late to intervene and sometimes we make what people think is the wrong choice.  Maybe it is.  But we can't do anything if we aren't aware of the problem.

Betsy


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> See, but that sort of comment isn't particularly nice either, is it? There are clearly some people who feel like they are ignored and/or made fun of. And a lot of the responses in this thread pretty much prove their point, I'm sorry to say.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> To get back to the OP's concern, I again encourage people to report posts that they think are inappropriate. Does that mean we will always intervene? No. But we will take a look and discuss in the secret admin cave. Sometimes we will edit, sometimes we will comment, and sometimes we will do nothing. Sometimes people WILL take offense at things that are innocent enough and sometimes people will push the limits. Sometimes we are too late to intervene and sometimes we make what people think is the wrong choice. Maybe it is. But we can't do anything if we aren't aware of the problem.
> 
> Betsy


I, for one, am a little confused about the take away message here. The OP complained that people are making fun of erotica writers' pen names when a lot of them choose double-entendres _that are supposed to be funny _ (e.g., I'm fairly certain that "Joy Cox" is not the real name of that KB regular). It's a convention of the genre. The same goes with titles and covers: they're supposed to be a little over the top-titillating humour and all that.

So what should we do when one of the erotica writing regulars expects us to laugh along with the not infrequent jokes they make about themselves? Make no response because someone might be offended by it-thereby making the jokester feel like he or she has crossed a line? I'm just saying that you can't exactly predict how people are going to take remarks, so it seems to me that the onus falls on the listener as much as the speaker.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> We'll also sometimes switch a cover link to a text link in the body of a post so that people won't come across something questionable unawares. Betsy and I have each had conversations with various members who write erotica and who realize that their titles or covers might be outside 'forum decorum'. We work with 'em to get something that we can live with.


I think you should have a "notify" feature with a linik to those, for those of us who want to go check the covers out.


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## MBlack (Mar 12, 2012)

As an erotica writer myself (one little ol' story up so far, but more on the way!) I have to say I haven't found a lot of prejudice against erotica on the Writer's Cafe. I haven't even noticed the level of snark some people have mentioned. I've participated on other boards where it was far greater. This board is nice! The sarcasm I've seen seems mostly in a light vein, and people here tend to be genuinely helpful and supportive. I love it here.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> But then again, I really don't have any experience trying to place erotica, so my suppositions are probably innacurate. To date I have only written one sex scene that I would call explicit, and I shudder every time I read it. When I said it is hard to write erotica (despite the "pun" comment) I wasn't kidding. Some people just don't have the make-up to write sex well. I certainly don't.


Yeah about six months ago, the wife and I hadn't rolled in the hay in a while and things were backing up, so I tried my hand at a couple erotica scenes and fizzled. Came off as trashy Penthouse stuff. I definitely don't have a touch for that.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

WHDean said:


> I, for one, am a little confused about the take away message here. The OP complained that people are making fun of erotica writers' pen names when a lot of them choose double-entendres _that are supposed to be funny _ (e.g., I'm fairly certain that "Joy Cox" is not the real name of that KB regular). It's a convention of the genre. The same goes with titles and covers: they're supposed to be a little over the top-titillating humour and all that.
> 
> So what should we do when one of the erotica writing regulars expects us to laugh along with the not infrequent jokes they make about themselves? Make no response because someone might be offended by it-thereby making the jokester feel like he or she has crossed a line? I'm just saying that you can't exactly predict how people are going to take remarks, so it seems to me that the onus falls on the listener as much as the speaker.


WH,

Not sure how to be more clear...all I'm asking is for people to report situations that make them uncomfortable so we can assess them. We may or may not do anything. As I said in the post you quoted, people WILL take things wrong that are meant innocently enough. I get those PMs too.

I'll let Ann speak for herself. 

Betsy


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

A group of cats is a clowder -- I just looked this up two days ago. Really. 

I hadn't noticed an issue with people picking on erotica writers. If I had, it would have bothered me, a lot. So, it surprises me to see a thread about it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> WH,
> 
> Not sure how to be more clear...all I'm asking is for people to report situations that make them uncomfortable so we can assess them. We may or may not do anything. As I said in the post you quoted, people WILL take things wrong that are meant innocently enough. I get those PMs too.
> 
> ...


I'm just asking people to be considerate of the fact that what they mean when they post might not be conveyed accurately when it's read by others. Think playing telephone as a kid!

As to the OP. . . . .I feel like she saw a post that seemed to be mocking her sort of work generally, if not specifically. . . .I don't think it really was meant to. She hasn't said which post specifically bothered her, though at least one poster suggested it might be one of his and apologized for any offense.

Regardless, as Betsy said, the best response if you see something that you feel is inappropriate is to report it to us so we can look into it.

The discussion has gotten a bit off that original topic. . . . to a general one of "respect everyone, and think, before you post, whether something you want to say could be taken badly by someone who, after all, may not really know you very well."


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

In all seriousness, I write roleplaying games. *I'm a chick who writes RPGs.* You haven't seen condescension until you have gone to a game convention and have a table of ten guys look at you like you are an alien when they discover you are the GM for the game. At that moment, you have two options: you can get up on the soap box and engage in an angst-filled monologue about how women aren't made to feel welcome in the RPG community OR you drop your dice on the table and start running the game.

David mentioned vampire fiction. I write about vampires as well. And there are parts of the writing world that look down their noses at vampire stories. Oh well. Their loss. I'm not gonna run crying "woe is me they don't love me" just because someone I will never meet in real life makes a snarky comment about vampire fiction on a forum.

And frankly, I found the OP's post condescending. Because it came across as an angsty "this is the human rights issue of our day" post as if erotica writers are some oppressed minority. You are 50% of the ebook market! I wish I could write erotica! That is an enormous market demographic! People joke around about it not because they think it is easy to do, but because it is such a ridiculously huge market they wish they had the skill to get in on it. It's like when people "complain" about summer blockbusters but then we all go to the movies to watch the summer blockbusters. People make fun of reality TV shows but then go home and watch reality TV shows. Everybody whines about how bad pop music is, but what is it that sells these days?

The OP talked about respect. But truthfully, there have been a few erotica authors (a minority, but a graphic minority) who aren't exactly good representatives of erotica in regards to "respect." Ann mentioned book covers and book titles. There are a number of erotica authors who are very IN YOUR FACE and have no respect for the fact that this is not an erotica forum. And sometimes, the lighthearted comments about cover art you might be reading are actually complaints wrapped in a smile. I shouldn't have to turn my signatures off and miss all the great books because a handful of erotica authors don't care about decorum. I am very offended by some of the covers I see. But I don't get bent out of shape over it. But I will on occassion maybe make a joke to drop a hint. There are some erotica authors who are very militant and feel if they can't let it all hang out whereever they want whenever they want, then there is something wrong with everyone else but them.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

That's what I get for calling out Julie on 'banter'.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> That's what I get for calling out ***** on 'banter'.


See, you should have just allowed this thread to degenerate and by page five I would have been posting pictures of Godiva chocolate and Chris Hemsworth. And all would have been right with the world. Now you ruined it for everyone...


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## Scarlet Scrivener (Aug 30, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm just asking people to be considerate of the fact that what they mean when they post might not be conveyed accurately when it's read by others. Think playing telephone as a kid!
> 
> As to the OP. . . . .I feel like she saw a post that seemed to be mocking her sort of work generally, if not specifically. . . .I don't think it really was meant to. She hasn't said which post specifically bothered her, though at least one poster suggested it might be one of his and apologized for any offense.
> 
> ...


I don't want to put words in the OPs mouth, but I think what is being addressed in her post is not just one incident - she is just alluding to a particular thread as an example. There is an environment of intimidation and bullying at this forum, in general. And, there is a cliquishness. This is common to forums where there are long-time posters who will gang up on a newcomer.

I hope this will be taken in the spirit of constructive criticism because that is my intention. This forum could really be helpful to writers. I have found some real gems of information here, but it's like digging in a pile of dung most of the time. There are a lot of times that I would like to post something that could be of help to someone, but I don't because I don't enjoy the hostility. I like to feel that my contribution is appreciated and not degraded in some way.

I'm sure I'll be accused of being too serious, but writing is, after all, a business to me and to many other people. If this forum focused more on writing, publishing, marketing and technical help for people, I would certainly enjoy it far more and we could all benefit from each other's experiences. This kind of sharing does happen here, but more often than not it is a circus environment.

I think this is because most of the posters here enjoy the circus. I do not. Unfortunately, I don't know of any other good places to get info. and tech help apart from the KDP forums, which is far less circus-like and really the place to find technical help for KDP, at least. This forum could be a lot more than it is and a great help to people.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> See, you should have just allowed this thread to degenerate and by page five I would have been posting pictures of Godiva chocolate and Chris Hemsworth. And all would have been right with the world. Now you ruined it for everyone...


Chocolate is good even when the discussion is a serious one. . . . . maybe even more important then!

I was at a workshop once about how to talk to folks in your group, or bosses, when there were *things* that needed to be discussed.  This one person basically said the answer is always, "Pie". Take everyone out for pie, because it will be easier to have an important discussion when sharing food because it elevates the general mood and makes everyone more open to at least listening to each other -- rather than only being interested in getting their point across!


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## JoyCox (Mar 21, 2012)

Lily Mia said:


> Today I have come across a post which I won't quote, making fun of erotica covers and erotica pen names.


Sounds like an interesting thread - was it all snark, or was it a thread with potentially useful information about how readers feel about erotic covers and pen names? I'd personally love to see the link and read the thread.

As for feeling unwelcome here? I can't say that I've noticed any unkind behavior directed at me because of my genre. I've apparently had a few book covers in my sig that made a couple people uncomfortable, but the moderators were very open to working through that issue in a pleasant and professional manner. But for the most part, people seem to focus on the content of my posts instead of my sig line, or avatar cleavage.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

JoyCox said:


> Sounds like an interesting thread - was it all snark, or was it a thread with potentially useful information about how readers feel about erotic covers and pen names? I'd personally love to see the link and read the thread.
> 
> As for feeling unwelcome here? I can't say that I've noticed any unkind behavior directed at me because of my genre. I've apparently had a few book covers in my sig that made a couple people uncomfortable, but the moderators were very open to working through that issue in a pleasant and professional manner. But for the most part, people seem to focus on the content of my posts instead of my sig line, or avatar cleavage.


I do both, read the post with one eye on the avvy cleavage. Outstanding.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I haven't noticed a singling out of erotica authors, but then I don't write erotica, so maybe I'm not sensitive to it. I do, however, write paranormal romance and I admit, I haven't notice too much mocking of the genre. I mean, I've seen a few derogatory references to "those vampire" books.  I just always assume the posters are making a joke. If not, I don't really care. I write what I write because I like it. Give me a good vampire book over a Nicholas Sparks title any day.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Scarlet Scrivener said:


> I'm sure I'll be accused of being too serious, but writing is, after all, a business to me and to many other people. If this forum focused more on writing, publishing, marketing and technical help for people, I would certainly enjoy it far more and we could all benefit from each other's experiences. This kind of sharing does happen here, but more often than not it is a circus environment.
> 
> I think this is because most of the posters here enjoy the circus. I do not. Unfortunately, I don't know of any other good places to get info. and tech help apart from the KDP forums, which is far less circus-like and really the place to find technical help for KDP, at least. This forum could be a lot more than it is and a great help to people.


Okay, I love the circus, but I have to confess that I go elsewhere for serious discussion on writing. The problem with discussing the art of writing on this forum is that most of the authors are here, presenting what they consider polished product for sale, and talking about the ins and outs of similies, alliteration, and dangling participles makes them appear to be unpolished, so I think the conversationswouldn't go far, whereas, on other site designed specifically for writing skills and technique, there's no pressure to appear to be professional. The marketing gets some threads, but they're incredibly redundant. There's only a handful of ways to market, and they've been covered in the hundred marketting threads that have come and gone. Technical threads I thing get answered on an individual basis. Sorry, but the mix works well for me.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I don't participate in every thread... I don't even read every thread.  I don't think anyone would get anything done in his/her life if that person read every single page of every single thread.  I focus on threads whose titles are of interest, or suggest an issue I've had a question about.  So I hope the OP doesn't throw paint all of us "good eggs" with the same brush as the rotten one.  (Or maybe that should be apples in a barrel.  Whatever.)   Yes there seems to be some "cliquishness going on, but that's to be expected when some people have been around since books were written on scrolls.  To be honest I'm not interested in being part of any particular group.  I come here for information, for exchanging views and ideas, offering an opinion or bit of advice from time to time, and soaking up whatever wisdom I can glean from the experience of others.  As far as I can tell, iIt's easy enough to avoid the "circus" elements.  

I'm really sorry that you (the OP) had an unpleasant experience and I hope you understand that most people here (from what I see, anyway) don't care what kinds of books people write.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Yeah. I had to take a cold shower after reading _Road to Hell_!


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Yes there seems to be some "cliquishness going on, but that's to be expected when some people have been around since books were written on scrolls.


I don't have a clique. Wanna start one? Just agree with everything I say. It's easy. We can be a team.


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## JacksonJones (Feb 20, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> As to the OP. . . . .I feel like she saw a post that seemed to be mocking her sort of work generally, if not specifically. . . .I don't think it really was meant to. She hasn't said which post specifically bothered her, though at least one poster suggested it might be one of his and apologized for any offense.


Er...I can't recall if I apologized. To be honest, I'm having trouble seeing the offense in my post. To me, it was teasing several genres at once, and I think the Urban Fantasy/Romance people got it harder than the Erotica folks. I'll insert some smilies here, just in case.      However, if I need to commit hari-kari, let me know and I shall do so.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Lily Mia said:


> I sincerely hope that people become aware of that most basic human right, "respect" when posting about erotica writers or their genre.
> 
> Rant over.


As long as you're making money, why even _care_ what other people think? Spend the money, party, living well is the ultimate win.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

sicklove said:


> As long as you're making money, why even _care_ what other people think? Spend the money, party, living well is the ultimate win.


True. You don't go into erotica writing believing you are going to be highly thought of.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Back on topic
> 
> One of the problems we have in moderating. . .well. . . .moderately. . . .is cover images and language. We do want to be a board that people won't mind letting their kids browse. Or that they can look at at work without getting in trouble. The language filters will work. . . .and we ask that folks who are going to post explicit excerpts, or who have threads for explicit books, make that clear in the post/thread title, so those who are not interested can avoid it. If you don't we might edit it.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it's not a matter of being offended by erotica covers, it's a matter of browsing the forum during downtime at work, and having a risque cover pop up. I just scroll fast past any on this site, so no biggie, but one time I was checking B&N for book rankings and almost every book in the top 100 was erotica. I had to quickly close the page for fear that my boss would walk in.  (this was before B&N did something to the rankings of erotica books and screwed up everyone's sales.) My work doesn't have an AdSense filter. They used to, but now they have something else and it's automatic. I can't control it.

I must have missed the thread that offended the OP, but I don't recall anyone trashing erotica authors. Of course, I only read a fraction of the threads.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

AJHamilton said:


> True. You don't go into erotica writing believing you are going to be highly thought of.


If you're not a fame whore, what does it matter?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Scarlet Scrivener said:


> I don't want to put words in the OPs mouth, but I think what is being addressed in her post is not just one incident - she is just alluding to a particular thread as an example. There is an environment of intimidation and bullying at this forum, in general. And, there is a cliquishness. This is common to forums where there are long-time posters who will gang up on a newcomer.


Gosh, I haven't seen that at all. Things very rarely get heated, but this forum is a McDonald's playground, a bowling lane with bumpers in the gutters, a bike with training wheels compared to most internet boards. Considering the sheer number of posters and the diversity of experience and opinions, I find it so mellow that I wonder if the incense burning in the corner isn't dispensing psychotropics into the air.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Chocolate is good even when the discussion is a serious one. . . . . maybe even more important then!


Not to get overly Freudian in a thread that's theoretically about erotica, but food, on the Internet, _is always on topic_.

I occasionally write and publish erotica (under various gender-neutral pen names). I honestly don't see an anti-erotica bias here. Sure, people may poke fun at the genre, but no more so than any other.

Hell, within the last week someone posted a comment to the effect of "Why not write literary fiction? No plot, no problem." I've also written literary fiction. I, somehow, managed not to post a three-star diatribe about the awful suffering which we belletrists are forced to endure here, even though there's probably more of a legitimate anti-literature bias here than an anti-erotica one.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

This place is not a circus, nor do I think it's any more clique-ish than most other forums (much milder I'd say, in fact). And the word "clique" is thrown around far too easily. If you've got a group of people who've known each for a long time, and a newbie comes in, by the very definition you could call that a "clique". Sometimes they are in fact cliques, and do gang up to exclude "outsiders", but often times its the "outsider" who just approaches it the wrong way. It'd be great if everyone was all roses and sunshine and sweet and welcoming and such, but fortunately, the technology demonstrated in the film The Stepford Wives hasn't truly been invented yet.

Yes, sometimes people are in fact bullied on the Net, but just as often people are far too thin skinned or self absorbed, expecting others to fawn all over them. That's just not how life is, and this site is very much a welcoming place compared to others. It's no different in the "real" world, and that's just how it is. And I know people always criticize human nature for "loving a train wreck," but quite frankly, there's a reason none of us writers ever start our story with "And they lived happily ever after..." Life without conflict and drama of some sort would be idyllic, but also terribly boring.


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## Lily Mia (Apr 24, 2012)

Firstly I would like to thank everyone who has offered their support, it is greatly appreciated. Also if my post has made people aware of how they address other genre writers on here then that is something positive.

I will refrain from publicly identifying the post that upset me, to be frank its been more than one post. Starting a witch hunt or burning is not my intention and not something that would give me any kind of satisfaction.

Is KB welcoming to Erotic Writers? Your resounding response has been no. Has anyone responded to the erotica writers with their contribution within this very thread? Anyone asked further of the issues that they have brought, seperate from my own? No.

More or as many erotica writers on KB as non erotica, do they post much? 
Are they as active as non erotica writers on the forums?

KB is a nice place, informative, funny, social... Not if your an erotica writer. 

We erotica writers have to sift through posts and decipher for ourselves what resources, marketing etc we can adapt to for our own uses.

There is a culture of discrimination towards erotica writers on here. It starts off with "We" can't be invited here and stretches outwards like a web. In this very thread there has been discussion of our signatures causing offence (understandable).
Can you see this seismic shift and exlcusion? 
Some of you take this as license to see erotica writers as something less than yourselves.

For practicalities "We" adapt and accept that. 

Writers having a bad day, bad sales, bad reviews. Post about it. Do any of you going around insulting, mocking those writers?
Erotica writers are fair game however.

To be blunt it's been incredibly hurtful to even talk about this and I am incredibly upset as I write this. To quote one of my kindred (mrv01d) "And again, I advise erotica authors to look elsewhere.", I will follow this advice.

Feel free to laugh and mock and put my post through your microscope.

I have expired myself and my honour on here and this will be my last post on KB. Wishing you all well and success to indie publishing.

Kind Regards,

Lily,
xxx


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> There is a culture of discrimination towards erotica writers on here. It starts off with "We" can't be invited here and stretches outwards like a web.


I'm sorry you feel this way, but from what I can tell from this thread, most of us just aren't seeing this. In the first place, no one has to be "invited" here-- one comes in, registers, and starts posting. And secondly, most people who've posted have said they haven't really noticed much discrimination against any particular genre. Admittedly we may be missing something, but your complaint is so general that it's hard to really grasp what the problem may be.



> In this very thread there has been discussion of our signatures causing offence (understandable).


You say it's understandable, but you seem to be including it in your "culture of discrimination." But as Mary pointed out above, there are reasons for KB to curb certain covers beyond concerns about offending people. Some people may find the site un-surfable at work if the covers are too risque. I could be wrong, but surely this isn't unique to Kindleboards? Some of the covers I've seen I'd expect to be kept under a "over eighteen" pop-up on Blogger. I'm not a prude, but this isn't an over-eighteen-only board.



> Can you see this seismic shift and exlcusion?


I don't think most of us can, and perhaps that's why we're having a hard time grasping the problem. Are there any specific examples you have in mind?



> Writers having a bad day, bad sales, bad reviews. Post about it. Do any of you going around insulting, mocking those writers?
> Erotica writers are fair game however.


I guess my question is, have you seen this repeatedly? Not just once or twice, but a whole bunch of times from numerous posters? There are a few jerks here, for sure. But if you're saying that every time you comment in a thread you're insulted or mocked-- I really haven't seen that sort of attitude toward writers of _any _genre. I don't mean to dismiss your feelings, but I just haven't seen people behaving that way here.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I love a good internet flounce as much as the next person, but I always think it's probably not necessary. Instead, take a break quietly. Come back once the blood sugar is higher and life is less stressful.

Seems like a lot of unnecessary drama.


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## Scarlet Scrivener (Aug 30, 2011)

Lily Mia said:


> Firstly I would like to thank everyone who has offered their support, it is greatly appreciated. Also if my post has made people aware of how they address other genre writers on here then that is something positive.
> 
> I will refrain from publicly identifying the post that upset me, to be frank its been more than one post. Starting a witch hunt or burning is not my intention and not something that would give me any kind of satisfaction.
> 
> ...


Not that I post here often, for the aforementioned reasons, but I think you have the right idea.

The offenders are wholly unrepentant. And, it is clear to me that they enjoy soiling their own nest in this way and flinging it at whoever comes into their midst. And, apparently, this is acceptable here because I have not only been bullied, but not permitted to defend myself on those occasions. In fact, I'm surprised that nothing I've said so far hasn't been characterized as a "personal attack" or some such. I get the point, now, that this is how it is here and this is how it is going to be because its how they want it.

In solidarity, I will not post here, again, and will cease even visiting. All it does is raise my blood pressure about half the time, anyway.

OP, I'm glad you did this. I have kept coming here because I felt I was getting enough good info., but honestly, its nothing I couldn't get with a google search and it's just not worth it.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Lily Mia said:


> ...Is KB welcoming to Erotic Writers? Your resounding response has been no...


Reading between the lines just to justify your position is unfair. I think the "resounding response" here has been that the site IS welcoming to Erotic Writers, and all others, but all of us have to stay within the site's acceptable guidelines.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> The problem with discussing the art of writing on this forum is that most of the authors are here, presenting what they consider polished product for sale...


This. I don't really expect craft discussion on KB because most of the writers here are at the publishing phase, which is generally expected to come after the learning to write part. While I don't think anyone should ever feel they've reached a point where they no longer have new things to learn, I can definitely understand why the focus around here is more on promoting than craft. KB isn't really a big critique group, although I imagine it could be if enough members wanted that. I'm just not convinced that's what the majority come for. The critique-my-blurb threads are usually the least frequented.



Jena H said:


> I don't think anyone would get anything done in his/her life if that person read every single page of every single thread.


You've just described my life.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

/shrug

I don't like seeing a lot of naked backside and tata when my teens are looking over my shoulder. I'd hate to turn off the signatures because I get to see who is a writing and what they are writing. At the same time, I also don't like my teenage boys wondering WTH their step-mother is looking at  

If that makes me a hater, put me in the hater category.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

@ Lily Mia

Here is one of your latest posts:



> "I'm mostly an introvert too. I say mostly because as I've got older, I've become bolder with life and people.
> I can hang out with people but don't really enjoy it for prolonged periods. The reason being most people now days enjoy nothing more than talking about themselves *I'm looking at you extroverts*.
> On-line can be not much different, Facebook with it's "Hyper & Shiny" people and their *&^*$%& Blackberry that has to inform you where they are in the world.
> 
> ...


So it's basically okay for you to insult every extrovert on this board and call authors interested in discussing language "pompous," then turn around and say you don't feel welcome here?

And on a different thread, a quote from you:



> My own opinion, there are too many "Toff's" in the literary world. Each with their own egotistical claims to the literary world. Pompous dinosaurs.
> When you have become successful and need write no more, what better way to while your time than get that dusty old trumpet and start blowing on it?


And another:



> My own views, I've found academic's to be on the whole egotistical, big headed and shallow.


You've only made 85 posts on this forum, and I found 3 where you call large groups of people "pompous" and insult them, groups of people who could very well be participating in this forum. I didn't bother to look through all 85 of your posts, only the first few.

My point is that you felt there was no problem with coming to this forum and making sweeping generalizations that many will find insulting.

Pot, meet Kettle.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

As my old mate Billy Shakespeare would say, this thread is "Much Ado About Nothing."


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

i was going to not post on this thread, but hey, i can't resist....
1) we are all different here.  some people like erotica, some love it, some hate it, some don't care.
2) we all read posts differently.  as has been said, one person's blowing off steam may be a second person's direct attack.
3) kindleboards was designed as a thread for kindle owners and kindle book readers.  some of us have never written anything other than an e-mail, when some of us are best-selling authors.
4) this forum has always been touted as "family friendly" (definition difficult to pin down as it will be something different to different people), but I don't want to see *sses or t*ts when I'm at work. So, I avoid avatars, sigs and threads about erotica.  My choice, your mileage may vary.
5) everyone is welcome, but not everyone will be welcoming all the time.
6) our moderators do wonderful jobs.  i don't always agree with them, but i wouldn't want them to change how they do things.

to sum up, as betsy knows I will....  no matter what you do, some people will love you, some people will say bad things about you, and some people will just offer you chocolate to make you feel better no matter what....


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Lynn ODell said:


> call authors interested in discussing language "pompous," then turn around and say you don't feel welcome here?


This is the first time I've been included in a pompous collection. I'm honoured. Normally I'm just called self-centered, arrogant, conceited, and mean.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

> We erotica writers have to sift through posts and decipher for ourselves what resources, marketing etc we can adapt to for our own uses.


Well, yes, this is true. I'm not sure I understand how this is somehow linked to erotica writers being unwelcome here, though.

I can't help erotica authors market erotica because I don't write erotica and don't have any direct experience with trying to market it. Surely you're not blaming non-erotica-writers for not sharing information they haven't a clue about? Surely you should be chiding your fellow erotica writers for not sharing like-minded information more freely. No reason there can't be threads devoted to sites to notify about freebies and sales, places open to reviewing and advertising new releases, and all the other advice seen here for other genres.

Is the reverse true? Are erotica-only writers helping the nons market non-erotic books? Of course not, because they haven't a clue about what works best outside of the erotica culture. It's not a failing or a snub. It's simply selling to different markets where experience in one doesn't translate into experience in another.

In a way, it's like you're 1-starring non-erotica authors for being what they are. _"This book, NOT AN EROTICA TITLE, doesn't have enough sex in it, and what it does have is way too mild. Sure, people who like this kind of book will likely find it a fun and informative read, but because it doesn't have an erotic level of sex, I'm going to give it just one star and warn other erotica readers away from it."_ How fair is that?

Lily, I truly believe you think you have a very legitimate complaint with KB. I also think many of us are having a hard time understanding why you feel that way. I also think forums are like books in that no book will be loved by all -- our own personalities and belief systems will color how we approach a book and how we respond to it.

I wish you much peace and oodles of success wherever you wind up. Best of luck.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> This is the first time I've been included in a pompous collection. I'm honoured. Normally I'm just called self-centered, arrogant, conceited, and mean.


Don't forget "representative of Satan"


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

telracs said:


> Don't forget "representative of Satan"


You all wish you were called such


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You all wish you were called such


nah.... i'm just a minion to an evil overlord. perfectly happy with that.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Lily Mia said:


> Is KB welcoming to Erotic Writers? Your resounding response has been no. Has anyone responded to the erotica writers with their contribution within this very thread? Anyone asked further of the issues that they have


Lily and Scarlet, I don't mean to sound unkind and I'm genuinely sorry if you feel KB is no longer a place where you can feel comfortable hanging out. That said, I've just read six full pages of people either apologizing if some unknown comment of theirs has accidentally offended you or telling you they have no problem with erotica writers. And yet you say their resounding response has been that you're not welcome. That suggests to me that your minds were already fully made up on this subject and nothing could have changed them. I regret that KB has been a negative experience for you and wish you both well.


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## JoyCox (Mar 21, 2012)

Lily Mia said:


> We erotica writers have to sift through posts and decipher for ourselves what resources, marketing etc we can adapt to for our own uses.


It's hardly the fault of KB forum members that a number of marketing channels have a lousy attitude toward erotica. Yeah, it stinks that POI and ENT are channels that won't advertise erotica authors' KDP Select free days. Promo opportunities for erotica authors suck. Thank goodness our reader base tends to actively search for their preferred types of stories.

I don't find sifting through general threads to be that big of a hardship. It's just as hard for YA authors to find specific info about their needs and interests. Life sucks for them too - they are a minority viewpoint on the forum and they have to figure out how to market to a target audience that's too young to have credit cards.

Same applies to non-fiction writers, Christian romance writers, the paranormal folks, etc. With so many genres represented in the forum, I doubt any one genre could be categorized as the majority view. If you have a minority viewpoint or interest and want specific information of some kind, start a specific thread, stay active in it and hope that most people stay on topic, and be prepared to deal with the reality that the Internet is like herding cats - and the chance that you actually get quality information is probably about 1 in 10. (The rest will either not understand your question, not understand the specific nuances of your question, go off on a tangent, make dumb jokes, make an occasional funny joke, try to help - but not have a really helpful answer, promote their books, post an irrelevant link, post a broken link, or just be generally incoherent.) That's actually not too bad for an internet forum.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Lynn ODell said:


> @ Lily Mia
> 
> Here is one of your latest posts:
> 
> ...


Applause.


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## Lily Mia (Apr 24, 2012)

telracs said:


> i was going to not post on this thread, but hey, i can't resist....
> 1) we are all different here. some people like erotica, some love it, some hate it, some don't care.
> 2) we all read posts differently. as has been said, one person's blowing off steam may be a second person's direct attack.
> 3) kindleboards was designed as a thread for kindle owners and kindle book readers. some of us have never written anything other than an e-mail, when some of us are best-selling authors.
> ...


And the others;

I should have asked Betsy to lock this thread, But looking at the above quote... well!

You lot are hypocritical vultures and Betsy can amend this and carry on with telracs


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Scarlet Scrivener said:


> ... because I have not only been bullied, but not permitted to defend myself on those occasions.


I know what you mean about being bullied. I once got an "anonymous" hate mail from a KBer. Can you believe that? What kind of person would do such a thing?


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

You know, we need to merge this thread with the 'How to Walk Away On The Internet' one...


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## HezBa (Jan 24, 2012)

Lily Mia said:


> And the others;
> 
> I should have asked Betsy to lock this thread, But looking at the above quote... well!
> 
> You lot are hypocritical vultures and Betsy can amend this and carry on with telracs


I have to admit, I really don't know where you're coming from. And I want to.

I haven't seen all the comments you're alluding to (actually any of the comments) and since you refuse to mention them, I can't make any comment or judgement about the fairness of either the post or your complaint.

But I think that saying the people in this thread are vultures is really combative (the most combative I've ever seen in this forum, which is a bit ironic considering your OP). If you really want to improve the way things run here, this is not the way to do it. It seems more like you just want to be mad.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Hey, what's so bad about feeling unwelcome? It's a high and worthy goal I shoot for daily. I'm hard at work writing my first non-fiction book, "Moderating for Dummies." I get great material here.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> You know, we need to merge this thread with the 'How to Walk Away On The Internet' one...


http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,115210.0.html

I was just going to say the same thing, Morgan...


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

Before Betsy locks the thread, I want to end with this (because this should have been on page five)










and this


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Lily Mia said:


> And the others;
> 
> I should have asked Betsy to lock this thread, But looking at the above quote... well!
> 
> You lot are hypocritical vultures and Betsy can amend this and carry on with telracs


Really? After the post I made quoting your insulting comments on other threads, you have the nerve to come back and say WE are hypocritical?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Before Betsy locks the thread, I want to end with this (because this should have been on page five)


great! another bottle of godiva for me to steal. Thanks Julie!

but you can keep hammer guy, i'm taking Tony stark.

*hiccup!*


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

JoyCox said:


> It's just as hard for YA authors to find specific info about their needs and interests. Life sucks for them too - they are a minority viewpoint on the forum and they have to figure out how to market to a target audience that's too young to have credit cards.


...plus deal with the stigma of writing "simple" books for "children", and almost inevitably winding up with at least one also-viewed and/or also-bought recommendation that is _grossly_ age-inappropriate. Nobody ever complains if an erotica title gets a YA title on its also-bought list, but when the reverse happens, it generally seems to be full-blown panic time, and (I like to imagine) quite understandably so.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

I think there are a tremendous number of erotica writers here. I know that some of us refuse to promote erotica on our blogs/Facebook/Twitter etc. for a variety of reasons. I don't do it because I have a lot of young followers whose parents (who are members of my family) would kill me if I did.

I'll be honest, I get terrifically turned off by endless pictures of bare butts etc. in sig lines but I consider that is MY problem and I ignore the threads where they take over. I always feel like I'm being "moon"ed.

But aside from that I have no problem with erotica writers.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Before Betsy locks the thread, I want to end with this (because this should have been on page five)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yum and yum!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Lynn ODell said:


> And another:
> 
> "My own views, I've found academic's to be on the whole egotistical, big headed and shallow."
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm an academic! Those are some pretty nasty insults.

I'm not going to stamp off the board in a tizzy because Lily shares a common prejudice against college professors, but I am sort of sorry I posted sympathetically near the beginning of this thread.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

On a more serious note, the thread about walking away may be useful. Remember, if it happens in an internet forum, it is by definition not a matter of life and death. Sorry if this seems to be trivializing the OP's comments, but I don't see things the way the OP does. Get what you can from this forum and be glad it is here (the Mods try very hard to make it a civilized and welcoming place, but neither they nor the forum, nor I am perfect).


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## HezBa (Jan 24, 2012)

This is how I see it: The OP is wondering why erotica writers are unwelcome. The overwelming majority says that that is not the case. OP comes back and is still angry. 

Does this thread have anywhere to go but down?


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

ShaunaG said:


> I write both non-erotica and erotica. I've never been shunned or made fun of. I'm open with my real name and pen name *points at covers in signature*


I also write erotica and non-erotica, and I'm also open about my pennames. I've had people say they weren't interested in reading it (which is perfectly fine), but I've never had anyone say, "Oh, well, that's bad and you shouldn't do it".

In fact I've found the boards on a whole to be quite encouraging to erotica writers everyone.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

telracs said:


> great! another bottle of godiva for me to steal. Thanks Julie!
> 
> but you can keep hammer guy, i'm taking Tony stark.
> 
> *hiccup!*


I want him!! I want "hammer guy." Dibs, dibs!!!

ETA: Now that I have hammer guy, I'm walking away.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything else, but now here I am again.

Two points in general.

1.  Yes, it is nice if everyone is all nicety nice and sunshine and lollipops.  But that's not the real world.  I don't think most people on these boards go out of their way to be mean or cliquish or whatever, but hey, it does happen from time to time.  So what?  Toughen up folks.  If you think people here are "mean", go out there and meet the readers.  They'll tell you exactly what they think and what orifice you can stick it in, how far and how many times to twist it.  Then they'll get mean.  This is a grown up business world you're dealing in when you start selling your wares for real money.  Toughen up or this industry will eat you for lunch and spit out the toenails.  If one is that sensitive, this isn't the industry for them. Go find something that you're less personally invested in like selling Amway.

2.  I have a very flexible schedule, because in my day job, I'm on call 24/7/365 and I work from home.  I work a good 50 hours every week, and I routinely have to cross 4 time zones, but that kind of schedule also allows me to take a few minutes throughout the day to get on my personal computer and read the forums and respond if I'm not involved in something else.  I do not surf the net on the work computer and I do not surf the net when I'm working in the office.  If the flash of an erotica cover (or your personal chit chat or your banking or whatever) is something you'd worry about your boss seeing, you shouldn't be on the company computer wandering around the net.  You really can't blame Kindleboards or erotica authors or anyone else for that lapse in judgement.  And, most companies (big and small) have software that logs and reviews your time spent online.  They will know where you've been and what you've been looking at, how much time you spent on Farmville this week and in some cases, they even log every keystroke you make.  Not exactly a great choice since most companies also have policies that restrict personal use of company computers.


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## SwordJazz (Mar 15, 2012)

David Adams said:


> In fact I've found the boards on a whole to be quite encouraging to erotica writers.


This forum has only helped me move forward. I don't expect people in the Kindle Boards buying my stories. I just want to read about what's going on in the self-publishing business.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

This may come across as snark, but quite frankly the former erotica writers of KB deserve to toss a dose of well deserved snark at you
It is just a question of thick skin anyway, right?

The denial about this subject is baffling when the tsunami of proof is right on front of you after a year filled with waves of exodus. 
In this thread you have made comments about the many erotica writers on KB and how large the market share is, yet only 3 4 erotica writers have commented in the thread. Why?
You complain about all the risque covers but what you might want to do is think back and ask yourself the last time you have had that problem. How long?

The answer to both is the vast majority of the erotica writers have left long ago because of the reasons outlined in the OP and the failure of KB's moderation to deal with it. Mods, I have seen you at work all over this board. You haven't missed this problem, you have overlooked it.

If the one erotica writer left on this thread ever gets sick of it, please PM for an invitation to a more friendly world where we all went. All 300 plus ex-KB erotica writers...

Truth is my writing pays all the bills and a lot more. How about yours?
And don't claim that doesn't matter, the endless KB sales and tears in the beer threads prove otherwise. Pass that chocolate around again.

Best regards from an erotica writer in it for the cash that supports my writing for the craft
Tata (pun intended)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Someone said:


> 3 4 erotica writers


7 by my count.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Someone said:


> You complain about all the risque covers but what you need to do is think back and ask yourself the last time you have had that problem


On KB? Frequently. It was really bad for a while when the step-parent covers were out in full force; not because of the photos but the titles. My company is very laid back, but even my boss did a few double takes when I had KB open on my desktop and he came by to chat.

There was also the male pubic hair one, the shower scene, the oral sex...I can go on if you wish.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

1 book doesn't count
But hey, I'll give ya' 7
Point is, we are gone and deep down most of you are glad


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Someone said:


> 1 book doesn't count


I'm glad to know the erotica police are here 



> Point is, we are gone and deep down most of you are glad


Well, if you said your name instead of hiding, perhaps we could say if we were collectively glad or not. It's hard to make a firm statement when you are telling us how horrible we are and too big of a coward to give your identity.


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## CathleenShaffer (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm very new but I have been lurking around for months. I basically tune in to find out what's going on in the industry and initially needed help learning how to self publish. I figured out how to do it by buying a few e-books and reading this forum. I have never asked a question though because I have seen how curt and "eye rolling" some of the answers have been when some poor newby has asked a question that the "regulars" claim has been covered a million times. The person then gets told to look through the threads etc. and half the time they don't know how to navigate this system and how to begin looking. The forum has the feel of a giant clique and I suppose with many of the same people on it day after day that is to be expected. I'm not saying people are being mean but a definite attitude exists here that some writers (and I have discussed this forum with quite a few writer friends) find off-putting and less than welcoming.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm glad to know the erotica police are here
> 
> Well, if you said your name instead of hiding, perhaps we could say if we were collectively glad or not. It's hard to make a firm statement when you are telling us how horrible we are and too big of a coward to give your identity.


Heads up. You're about to get some "anonymous" hatemail. In 3...2...1...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I believe you can say that about every single forum on the internet. All groups of people have their own tone and system, and it always takes a bit to figure out.

I belong to three different groups that we vote on people before we let them into our online circle. Even though those people are there because everyone wanted them, they still take a bit to settle in.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm glad to know the erotica police are here
> 
> Well, if you said your name instead of hiding, perhaps we could say if we were collectively glad or not. It's hard to make a firm statement when you are telling us how horrible we are and too big of a coward to give your identity.


I was thinking the same thing. Hard to take this one seriously.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Heads up. You're about to get some "anonymous" hatemail. In 3...2...1...


 

I know this thread is about to get locked as soon as Betsy finishes her supper. I also know that someone signed up for KB just to post in a double flounce thread about how we're all mean - in a thread about how we're all mean - to tell us we hate erotica authors, and to let us know who is actually an erotica author and who isn't, and FURTHER, to let us know that a mysterious group of 300 erotica warriors are secretly lurking on the internet.

Good for them. There are, I'm sure, dozens, if not hundreds, of small groups formed from current and former KB authors.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Someone said:


> 1 book doesn't count
> But hey, I'll give ya' 7
> Point is, *we are gone* and deep down most of you are glad


I don't know if this is true, but supposing it is, I didn't notice it happening, so if this exodus is really happening, oh well. It's not like the place is dead or anything. It's not like we need more threads, whether they're about boobs and butts or something else.

As for erotica, who exactly is giving you a hard time? I mean, more than anyone else gets? People snark about romance, about paranormal, about anything. My own genre of crime fiction gets called formulaic sometimes. Are you talking about a joke or two about a double entendre pen name? Come on, some people are writing about group sex, tentacle porn, or step daddy fantasies, and this is what bothers them? If you are, I guess this isn't the place. There are enough erotica writers around here with a sense of humor that we'll still have a representative sample.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

David McAfee said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Hard to take this one seriously.


An anonymous poster makes wild, inflammatory statements on a public forum? And you don't believe them!?

*monacle falls out in shock*


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Hard to take this one seriously.


David, I don't believe me and you have ever agreed on anything before. There's a support thread for that in case it keeps you up tonight: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=107703.0;all



And with that, I'm going to bow out before Betsy yells at me.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> mysterious group of 300 erotica warriors are secretly lurking on the internet.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

+1


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

I just want to point out the 'we don't see any problems' is because most erotica writers are not posting here. Look through the last few pages of posts and count how many erotica genre threads there were. 

Go back and look at the paypal censorship posts and note how many of those folks are or aren't (mostly aren't) posting regularly.

The lack of overt conflict is because that demographic has been driven away. It's the irony of wondering why a room is empty when you're (general you not specific you) the reason no one's there.

And I really have an issue with whoever said no one writes erotica to be any good at it (or some such nonsense).  That really just kind of made the point. Yeah, I write sex so I can phone it in and be a horrible writer.   That's the attitude of someone who has never sustained a work on a sexual premise alone. Try and see how far you get. 

I'm over it. Really. It's just the logical fallacies were making me twitch. I will never create an ID for my erotica work. This isn't the board for it and it will never be, but not because the erotica writers didn't want to be here.

The sad thing is, we are good at making money, not just on subject, but marketing, algo analysis too. We have knowledge that could be extrapolated for others. But it doesn't get posted here.

M


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

CathleenShaffer said:


> I have never asked a question though because I have seen how curt and "eye rolling" some of the answers have been when some poor newby has asked a question that the "regulars" claim has been covered a million times. The person then gets told to look through the threads etc. and half the time they don't know how to navigate this system and how to begin looking.


I very much agree that questions from new members are often greeted with a regretable lack of patience - I've definitely seen a lot of complaints about this and can only imagine how many visitors don't come back because of it. I consider it very much a problem and I think everyone (including me) could work on being more friendly with new members. I just don't agree with the OP's feeling that it has anything to do with what genre the new member writes.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

This mass exodus, was it because people were mean to them or because they couldn't discuss their work freely because of the KB family-friendly TOS? Was it because many non-erotica writers weren't as upset with PayPal debacle as erotica writers were? I really and truly don't remember any dust-ups.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> And with that, I'm going to bow out before Betsy yells at me.


Hell no! I'm riding this flaming bag of poop all the way down, just like Kong from Doctor Strangelove.


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## Vera R. (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm an erotica writer...well, I write erotic romance (yes it's different from erotica), and I personally haven't seen anyone be disrespectful to me. Now, I know the general feeling about erotica is that it's porn, it's trash, it's dirty, etc. And I'm sure despite how _badly_ it's written, the 50 Shades books are making a lot of people wondering why _that_ book is a best-seller and not their book.

I get it.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to sell erotica or how people should give it a chance or weed out the bad because there's a lot of good. There's bad in every category and genre; erotica just happens to get the 'naughty' cloud over it. However, I haven't felt not welcomed here (sorry for the double negative). In my defense, I'm not on the boards that much and I spend most of my day writing and promoting my other works and I lurk more than I post.

My point is, erotica writers should be respected for their work. You may not agree with what they write about but they shouldn't be treated any different from someone of another genre.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Do I have to respect people who write really bad stuff? I don't mean bad as in naughty. I mean bad as in bad English? Cause I have a hard time with that one.

And, yes, I came back because of David's photo. *sigh* I am weak.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm OK with any genre. The only issue I have with erotica is those racy covers make it hard to surf Kindleboards at work sometimes. ;-)


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> And I really have an issue with whoever said no one writes erotica to be any good at it (or some such nonsense). That really just kind of made the point. Yeah, I write sex so I can phone it in and be a horrible writer.


What was said was actually, "You don't go into erotica writing believing you are going to be highly thought of." Not a reflection on what the poster thought about erotica writers' abilities as much as the way he thinks most of the world views erotica writing, I think.



> My point is, erotica writers should be respected for their work. You may not agree with what they write about but they shouldn't be treated any different from someone of another genre.


I agree, and I don't see anyone saying otherwise. (And I will grant you there are doubtless people who disagree, but they're refraining from posting.)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> What was said was actually, "You don't go into erotica writing believing you are going to be highly thought of." Not a reflection on what the poster thought about erotica writers' abilities as much as the way he thinks most of the world views erotica writing, I think.


I also didn't take it as a slight, but more of a reality check. It's doubtful the top literary prizes will ever go to erotica (or science fiction, or epic fantasy, or horror, or...)


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Monique said:


> This mass exodus, was it because people were mean to them or because they couldn't discuss their work freely because of the KB family-friendly TOS? Was it because many non-erotica writers weren't as upset with PayPal debacle as erotica writers were? I really and truly don't remember any dust-ups.


All of the above.

And I'm only bothering to post here b/c I feel like if no one bothers to say anything, no one will know. The ' no one's mean' thing only applies if you don't write erotica, and it speaks to people focusing only on what's important to them.

M


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Seriously?  I'm gone for 3 hours and I come back and you people are still going at it.  

You've got your chocolate liqueur and hammer man . . . .go write your books or what-have-you.  Geesh!

Yes. . . people are sometimes mean. . . . . we call them on it when we know about it.  So. . . for the millionth time. . .if you ever see a post that you feel is inappropriate, please report it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I see far more disparaging comments towards paranormal romance authors than anyone else, to be completely honest.

ETA: SORRY ANN


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Where was I when this happened?

Anyway, I'll give you a bit of your own medicine: There is a post on Kindleboards that is an affront to me and my genre, and I take great offense to it. I'm not going to link to it; it's your responsibility to find it, but I expect you to do so and to respond sympathetically. It is distasteful and pompous and against my very being. I'm a human and deserve respect.

Now, in these vague terms, I demand all of this, and I demand it now. Such injustices cannot be allowed to continue on Kindleboards. I mean, read this lin... ah, I almost posted it! Almost! I nearly did your job as the reader to read my mind and find the evidence of which I speak!

If you have guff, you can link to other links on the KB site for clarity. Without clarity, I can't really say I can sympathize, empathize, or any-other-kind-of-ize with the situation.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

There is a group of women at the office who talk constantly about their kids. I don't have kids, so when I go into the lunchroom and they are talking about their kids, do you know what I do?

A. Whine at them that they are hypocrites that don't make me feel welcome because I don't have kids
or
B. Get my coffee and move on

When the group of guys at the office are talking about fantasy baseball over break and I walk into the room, do you know what I do?

A. Complain and stomp my feet that they are not being inclusive and welcoming because they only talk about their fantasy baseball
or
B. Get whatever I was there for and move on

See, when you walk into a place, be it an office or a classroom or a forum, and the people there aren't talking about the things you want to talk about, that doesn't mean you aren't welcomed. That means you either need to decide to join the conversations they are having, or go find a group that talks about what you want to talk about.

I'm often been accused of being mean to newbies. More than once I've said something along the lines of an older forum member having "earned their spot." What that means is that in any group, the responsibility is on the person seeking entry to integrate into the group. The responsibility is not on the group to conform to whatever the new person wants. If you come to KB or any site and expect it to conform to you, and then accuse it of being unwelcoming when it fails to conform, that is your own insecurity and poor social skills at work. NOT the existing community. You don't get to come into someone's house and change their rules, and then complain at them when they say "no." 

It's like visiting a new city. Just because the cops in your hometown let you drive down Main Street at 70 miles an hour doesn't mean the cops in my town are bastards because they ticketed you for doing the same. It just means you didn't bother to learn the rules.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> What was said was actually, "You don't go into erotica writing believing you are going to be highly thought of." Not a reflection on what the poster thought about erotica writers' abilities as much as the way he thinks most of the world views erotica writing, I think.


Absolutely. It's somewhat hard to deny popular perceptions of a stigma against everything to do with the genre. There's a reason damned near everyone in the genre uses one or more pen names, after all...

_--George, I guess the only people more oppressed on KB than the erotica writers must be the LGBT authors..._


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> It's doubtful the top literary prizes will ever go to erotica (or science fiction, or epic fantasy, or horror, or...)


Ha. There is totally a Pulitzer Prize out there with my name on it *nods*.



> And I'm only bothering to post here b/c I feel like if no one bothers to say anything, no one will know.


Yes, it is sometimes frustrating to be an erotica writer. No one really gave a darn about the big B&N adjustment except erotica writers. No one really cared much about certain types of erotica getting removed from sites except erotica writers. No one worried about PayPal except erotica writers. But that's just human nature. People don't worry that hard about stuff happening to the other guy, and they rarely worry about injustice unless it hits them in the paycheck. So if erotica writers have created a place to discuss these issues, that's great. It's a very sensible thing for them to do. I just don't get why that means they all want to pack up and leave KB. But as someone said above, no one forum works for every writer *shrugs*.


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Jena H said:


> I want him!! I want "hammer guy." Dibs, dibs!!!
> 
> ETA: Now that I have hammer guy, I'm walking away.


Hammer Guy in the same thread as erotica musings makes a dirty mind go only one way... And that is up!

Yee, so inappropriate on so many levels! I love it when I can be immature!

Caedem


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Lily, 

I'm sorry you felt upset enough to start this post, but I have never felt like an outcast here because I include erotica and erotic thrillers in my repertoire.  I've also had the pleasure of working with some fantastic erotica authors over at Excessica, so I've had my fair share of exposure (no pun intended). 

Writing craft is just that and whether we write erotica, thrillers, sci-fi or any other genre out there, our goal is to put together the best story with the most suitable cover to represent that story.  

And while erotica covers do usually lend themselves on the sexy side of the street, we (erotic writers) need to be able to smile and chuckle at some of the more stereotypical covers and pen names - just like some of the more stereotypical romance covers, or thriller covers...  

I see your point - but I also think it's just as healthy to poke a little fun at ourselves and not take things personally. 


Don't lose faith in this forum, because it has some genuinely fantastic folks on both the writing side as well as the reader side.  It's a great way to connect and one of the better forums on the net.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Dara England said:


> I very much agree that questions from new members are often greeted with a regretable lack of patience - I've definitely seen a lot of complaints about this and can only imagine how many visitors don't come back because of it. I consider it very much a problem and I think everyone (including me) could work on being more friendly with new members. I just don't agree with the OP's feeling that it has anything to do with what genre the new member writes.


It may be true that some newbies are getting snarked at, but I've only been here for two months, and I've had a great time so far. For instance, a couple weeks back I posted asking for advice on running a free promo, a question I'm sure has been asked and answered a hundred times. Nevertheless, I quickly got excellent advice from a number of people. That advice made a huge difference in how well my promo went -- a 17,200-download difference, compared to my preceding promo. I was extremely grateful. So for at least some of us newbies, the board's working just fine. Better than fine.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

I've said plenty in this thread already, so naturally I feel the need to chime in again. I promise, this will be my last post in this thread.

I don't hate any genre. I don't hate writers of any genre. We all write what we want to write, and as such, each and every story will be different. Erotica is not to my taste, but that doesn't mean I don't respect those who can spin an artful story regardless of how many nude body parts are featured in it. I have gone on record earlier in this very thread saying that writing erotica is difficult, and not everyone can do it. I certainly can't. Huge kudos to those who can write it and write it well Seriously, I applaud you. As Julie noted, it's an insanely popular genre and I wish I were capable of writing it so I could buy a nicer house. Everything I have said that seemed to be mocking, I have apologized for, as no offense was ever intended. 

What I DO dislike is a poor attitude. So, flame me if you wish, but the OP of this particular thread seems to have a very combative and negative attitude. Lynn's post got me thinking, and I looked into several of the OP's posts. Many of them are FULL of remarks that insult one group of writers or another. 

As another poster noted, she read through six pages of people who either apologized for any behaviors that may have been taken as offensive or truly didn't see any issues and were curious as to what the OP considered offensive or unwelcoming comments. Yet even after six such pages, the OP still ripped into the entire non-erotica population of KB in a derisive and insulting manner.

I understand that something, somewhere in KB put the OP on the defensive, and once there it is sometimes difficult to read other people's posts without some measure of bias, but this whole thing comes across as "Us against Them" simply for the sake of Us against Them. 

So, to the OP: My apologies if I have ever, ever said anything that you deemed as derisive or offensive to your chosen genre. I truly have the utmost respect for talented writers in any category. With that said, your combative nature, combined with your habit of insulting other writers as pompous dinosaurs, could certainly account for why you may not have felt welcome here.

That is my last post on this matter. Agree or not, hate me if you will, but I am done with this thread. 

Adieu!

--David out.


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## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

Nice snipe on the hate mail. You know that kind of thing is a frequent technique used by those who are losing an argument, right? Learn something new today and look that fallacy up.
So on the hate mail? Naw, I ain't gonna do that.

And to address another argument fallacy which closely followed the above, I would tell you my name but unfortunately there have been erotica writers who have been targeted by KBers in the reviews. This is also another well-established fact expressed by multiple erotica writers who used to haunt these woods. So I am going to refrain from taking that risk as with a reveal I gain nothing, but stand a lot to lose -- all that crazy booty money belongs to me!
I am sure most can't blame me for that...

So in your race to refute my argument...
Toss in ad hominem and we'll have a trifecta!

The truth:
KB once was important to me and the other 300 plus erotica authors who left. It was a helpful, friendly place for all but for those in my genre, sadly those days have long passed. 
I just thought some of you deserved the truth. Bless ya for caring and looking in. We do appreciate it.

Now you can dismiss all of this if you want, but the proof is in the pudding. My name nor any of the other failed argument techniques you pull out your hats are going to change the facts.

You want to see it with your own 2 eyes?
Look back a year ago and pull up a random group of KB threads. Come on, do it. 
See all those erotica writers and their nasty, offensive covers posting in numbers?
Now pull a recent random group of threads. 
See the difference, the practical extinction of the genre on KB? 
What explains that?
What explains it is exactly what I said explains it. Erotica writers are for the most part gone and they all left in droves for a reason.

But hey, you don't do erotica so who cares? Just a bunch of thinned skins who aren't real writers left, so no harm no foul. *** ( see below)
No big deal, right? After all you didn't even notice us missing. Yeah, no big deal unless just maybe your genre is next. 
Eek! 
Who knows which genre KB will toss in the compactor next. Will it be Vampires? Romance? YA fantasy? What genre will be the next dismissed caste?
I got dollars to doughnuts on Vampires myself. I have teens, they are even befriending garlic and getting sick of the blood thirsty who lurk in the dark. 
OTOH my dark horse is definitely romance. Sure, they got strength in numbers going for them, but so did we.

However whichever genre it shall be, sadly it is a battle I will miss; I have terribly offensive void of all value tata to write. Toodle Loo

*** That last sentence is not putting words in anyone's mouths. _Thin skinned_ has been asserted in this thread more than once and _aren't real writers _has been said many times before our exodus. Now I could supply links for that, but such shouldn't be needed on my part seeming one person in this thread has already acknowledged the later has been said on KB.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

locking. . .don't expect it to be re-opened. . .really, everything has been said.


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