# No more serials!



## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Decided to stop releasing serials. From now on I will just wait until all parts of the story are complete.

Why? Because I think _most _readers prefer full and complete stories.

What say you?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Different readers like different things. A properly written serial is a more than just a book that has been chopped up into pieces, and there are people who enjoy the format.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Depends on the series and the writer, really. I'm so used to waiting a little while for the next installment in a series that it's not a big deal. If a writer has hooked me on their series, I'll wait a reasonable time for the next one (and if it's really hooked me, I'll wait years--looking at you Stephen "Dark Tower" King).


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Depends on the series and the writer, really. I'm so used to waiting a little while for the next installment in a series that it's not a big deal. If a writer has hooked me on their series, I'll wait a reasonable time for the next one (and if it's really hooked me, I'll wait years--looking at you Stephen "Dark Tower" King).


Serial Vs Series (there is a difference)


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> Different readers like different things. A properly written serial is a more than just a book that has been chopped up into pieces, and there are people who enjoy the format.


Exactly. Each installment of a properly done serial should be a "stand alone" episode. Think of a serial like a TV series. Each episode has a clear beginning, middle, and end. There will be overarching plotlines that continue from episode to episode, but each individual episode still stands on its own.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

My most popular series is a serial. I write it just like its a TV show, with each episode doing something for the wider story, and each season standing alone with an arc of its own.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

JessHayek69 said:


> Serial Vs Series (there is a difference)


Even serials I'm willing to wait. I don't remember the waiting time in between The Green Mile releases, but it was worth the wait. Do what works for you, of course!


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Decided to stop releasing serials. From now on I will just wait until all parts of the story are complete.
> 
> Why? Because I think readers prefer full and complete stories.
> 
> What say you?


I say that's a bad idea. Readers complain.

Everyone complains.

The bottom line is you need to look at how things are performing, and if they perform well, you keep doing it. If your serial isn't performing as each book comes out, then you have another issue to address.

That's my take. It's BUSINESS. People whining is not a business consideration unless it impacts your sales.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Exactly. Each installment of a properly done serial should be a "stand alone" episode. Think of a serial like a TV series. Each episode has a clear beginning, middle, and end. There will be overarching plotlines that continue from episode to episode, but each individual episode still stands on its own.


So no cliffhangers?


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

RKC said:


> My most popular series is a serial. I write it just like its a TV show, with each episode doing something for the wider story, and each season standing alone with an arc of its own.


That's it. And some people whine about Game of Thrones but I don't see that show changing it's schedule or not doing cliffhangers because of that...


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> So no cliffhangers?


Cliffhangers are fine still.

Here's two good pieces on serial writing:

http://www.storymastery.com/story/structuring-tv-series-episodes/

http://storyfix.com/story-structure-television


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> The bottom line is you need to look at how things are performing, and if they perform well, you keep doing it. If your serial isn't performing as each book comes out, then you have another issue to address.


Based on sales/feedback....I believe it best (for me) to release a complete story. I think the majority of readers do prefer a standalone complete story versus a story released in parts.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> That's it. And some people whine about Game of Thrones but I don't see that show changing it's schedule or not doing cliffhangers because of that...


TV show vs book...the same?


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

JessHayek69 said:


> Based on sales/feedback....I believe it best (for me) to release a complete story. I think the majority of readers do prefer a standalone complete story versus a story released in parts.


Ditto. Although, some do really well with cereal, I prefer bacon, and that is my experience as well


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Based on sales/feedback....I believe it best (for me) to release a complete story. I think the majority of readers do prefer a standalone complete story versus a story released in parts.


Did you pull your books? I just went to check the response to your sequels and the book wasn't available...


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Did you pull your books? I just went to check the response to your sequels and the book wasn't available...


Yes I am pulling all the cereals from the shelf! 

But the complete Bear and Tiger stories are available


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> TV show vs book...the same?


Yup, pretty much. I've had too much success with them (and seen plenty of others do so as well) to believe otherwise.

To each their own, but you asked for opinions.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Yes I am pulling all the cereals from the shelf!
> 
> But the complete Bear and Tiger stories are available


I think that's a rash decision, but best of luck!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Decided to stop releasing serials. From now on I will just wait until all parts of the story are complete.
> 
> Why? Because I think _most _readers prefer full and complete stories.
> 
> What say you?


"What say you?" You do what works for you.

Your books and writing life doesn't have anything to do with anyone else's books and writing life.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

JessHayek69 said:


> Decided to stop releasing serials. From now on I will just wait until all parts of the story are complete.
> 
> Why? Because I think _most _readers prefer full and complete stories.
> 
> What say you?


Not sure I could manage without my cornflakes, but good luck with it.


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## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

You need to do what's best for you. That said, I wouldn't have removed the individual serials as some readers do actually prefer it. You can offer both the episodes and the complete set, just change your plan going forward.

You've established yourself as a serialist, so you'd be fine to stay that way. Some readers just might be tired of the model, but that's not on you. If you state clearly in your description that it's a serials with possible cliffhanger, you'll be fine.

Do what's best for you and your bottom line. If a series of episodes brings in more money, stick with it. It may sound greedy, but it's what you have to do to make a living.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I had hoped to be able to come in and say "Down with Spelt! Quinoa sux!" But alas...

I've not been at it long enough to say much of use but I think some who complain about serials are among the most excited to buy the next. I had a neighbor actually walk over and grab me and shake me after reading the last one, but I did not read that as a bad thing. It was enthusiasm and far better than a yawn. It rattled my head a little, but I survived. (If I didn't finish the last, though, I suspect I'd have to move to a new town.)

Besides, the serial frustration will last for less than a year, at least in my case. After that, they can buy the bundle. Or, they can buy the first at a low price and decide if they even want the bundle. Or they can wait to see it's complete, and then buy it. Or ignore me entirely. Lots of options! 

But you should do what you want. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule that applies to every genre and every case.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Serials could be hugely profitable under KU1 because you could make $1.30/episode. That benefit is gone now, so it's become less a business and more an artistic/personal preference decision. For writers who like the form and who've established audiences that like serials, there's no reason to stop producing them.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Personally for me and many other readers I know, especially for romance, we aren't touching serials with a 10 foot pole. I don't even consider something a romance if its not a complete story anyway. So there are for sure many of us that will not even take another look at an author that has serials. 

Others seem to like them apparently. I don't mind series, but serials, um, nope.  

I am not sure how any of that would influence me as a reader if the author at some point packages the parts into one book and then sells it. I would have doubts that it flows well as a novel since it wasn't written as a novel, but in parts with arcs. If it was a proper serial that is and not just a chopped novel.

There are readers for about anything out there really.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Books not in serial give you access to a wider audience at first (but you should get that same access with serials when you release your eventual omnibus) while serials give you more chances to connect with a smaller audience. You'll have to figure out what works best for you.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2015)

Wait . . . are serial authors supposed to be marketing to people who don't like serials?

If you don't like serials, what does that have to do with the people who do like serials?  

Sorry if the answers to the questions are obvious, but sometimes I feel like I've stepped into a carnival sideshow.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Wait . . . are serial authors supposed to be marketing to people who don't like serials?
> 
> If you don't like serials, what does that have to do with the people who do like serials?
> 
> Sorry if the answers to the questions are obvious, but sometimes I feel like I've stepped into a carnival sideshow.


Well.. it's very hard to market directly to serial readers. It's more like you market to everyone and hope to draw in the serial readers.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

JessHayek69 said:


> So no cliffhangers?


Takes me back to my second State-side visit which was to Florida when the state was full of bumper stickers making various claims about the shooting of JR.

I grew up on a TV cereal called Porridge.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Takes me back to my second State-side visit which was to Florida when the state was full of bumper stickers making various claims about the shooting of JR.
> 
> I grew up on a TV cereal called Porridge.


Aye.. even right now, a large portion of the world is captivated by the Game of Thrones cliffhanger. It's not your average cliffhanger because the show really didn't leave you hanging.. you're supposed to believe that said character is supposed to be dead, but most people think said character isn't. This will probably lead to the highest ratings the show will ever see for the first episode of the next season.

People like cliffhangers, even if they claim they don't.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Briteka said:


> Aye.. even right now, a large portion of the world is captivated by the Game of Thrones cliffhanger. It's not your average cliffhanger because the show really didn't leave you hanging.. you're supposed to believe that said character is supposed to be dead, but most people think said character isn't. This will probably lead to the highest ratings the show will ever see for the first episode of the next season.
> 
> People like cliffhangers, even if they claim they don't.


Yep. Back in the old days before cable TV, daytime soap operas were enormously popular. They had cliffhangers in every show. Viewers loved it.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

As a reader, I LOVE serials. I read romance, erom, erotica - I love them. I'm that clicker who buys the next thing even if it's only on pre-order. I like having stuff pop up on my kindle. 

As an author, a serial in KU is not necessarily the best decision financially. So I can see the dilemma. However, there are authors who do serials, and are not in KU, and do well.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

What you do is collect your episodes after the fact and get both types of readers.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

For the record....is there a minimum page count for a serial that serial readers are OK with?


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Jess, I wonder if your expectations are too high. I looked at your Bear Naked Love book, and it seems like you're moving a couple copies a day. This is way, way above what the average self published authors does sale-wise. You're already ahead of the curve. You're just going to have to keep writing and releasing .

The old method of serials (we'll call it the K Mathew method) no longer works on Amazon. KU has killed permafree, and you can no longer release and support your works through a permafree.

Perhaps this means you have to try something else, but you'll still be in the same predicament. You have to find a way to push readers to your books. I see no real flaws with your books. The covers are great and the blurbs are good. The problem is that people aren't actually seeing your books. This will be true no matter what you release until you figure out how to move eyes to your product.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Jess, I wonder if your expectations are too high. I looked at your Bear Naked Love book, and it seems like you're moving a couple copies a day. This is way, way above what the average self published authors does sale-wise. You're already ahead of the curve. You're just going to have to keep writing and releasing .
> 
> The old method of serials (we'll call it the K Mathew method) no longer works on Amazon. KU has killed permafree, and you can no longer release and support your works through a permafree.
> 
> Perhaps this means you have to try something else, but you'll still be in the same predicament. You have to find a way to push readers to your books. I see no real flaws with your books. The covers are great and the blurbs are good. The problem is that people aren't actually seeing your books. This will be true no matter what you release until you figure out how to move eyes to your product.


If only 2 copies a day was enough! I need to sell 200-2000 a day 

Thanks for the encouragement. I agree I definitely need to run some more promos (Freebooksy etc). I just finished Wanted by the White Tiger so hopefully I can use it at as funnel to the other book (or vice-versa). Working on a werewolf story now!


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Briteka said:


> The old method of serials (we'll call it the K Mathew method) no longer works on Amazon. KU has killed permafree, and you can no longer release and support your works through a permafree.


How have they killed permafree?


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I feel cheated.  This isn't a discussion about the merits of breakfast foods.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2015)

JalexM said:


> How have they killed permafree?


Thank you. I was thinking the same thing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I see too many serials hitting top 100 of so many genres to believe that readers have a huge problem with them. But if you don't enjoy the format and/or can't keep up that kind of production schedule, don't do it. Full novels sell well, too. 

Also... what? How is permafree dead? It's pretty awesome still from my experiences...


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

There's a lot more free competition now that so many authors are in KU. Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate. 

ETA: Permafree itself can still be a good strategy, though I'd recommend an established pen name to start their funnel now at $.99 instead. What doesn't work is the K Matthew method that so many of us saw success with before.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

RKC said:


> Cliffhangers are fine still.
> 
> Here's two good pieces on serial writing:
> 
> ...


Cliffhangers are not fine by me and many other readers. I avoid them and often see negative reviews posted to them.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Briteka said:


> There's a lot more free competition now that so many authors are in KU. Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate.
> 
> ETA: Permafree itself can still be a good strategy, though I'd recommend an established pen name to start their funnel now at $.99 instead. What doesn't work is the K Matthew method that so many of us saw success with before.


uh... neither of my perma-free first in series does less than 20 a day on Amazon (one is closer to 50-80 a day when not advertised.) So... perhaps your numbers are down. Mine still seem to be working fine. As do many other people I know who still use permafree to keep sales up on series.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Melody Simmons said:


> Cliffhangers are not fine by me and many other readers. I avoid them and often seen negative reviews posted to them.


Not everyone likes them.

Not everyone likes anything.


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## miahart (Jul 12, 2015)

If a serial is fully written, so you can release on a consistent day of the week, every week, two weeks, or month. I think its still OK. Also, as a writer if you know the series is fully ready, it takes the pressure off.
Maybe try both approaches with different projects or create a poll on your website for your mailing list?


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

heidi_g said:


> Ditto. Although, some do really well with cereal, I prefer bacon, and that is my experience as well


 I got on this thread to see who the hell stole my Captain Crunch. No one messes with my CC.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Different readers like different things. A properly written serial is a more than just a book that has been chopped up into pieces, and there are people who enjoy the format.


Yeah, my general rule is a serial doesn't stand alone, but it could if it had to. If it couldn't it's a chopped up novel, not a serial.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Annie B said:


> uh... neither of my perma-free first in series does less than 20 a day on Amazon (one is closer to 50-80 a day when not advertised.) So... perhaps your numbers are down. Mine still seem to be working fine. As do many other people I know who still use permafree to keep sales up on series.


This really doesn't tell me anything. I don't know your rankings of further books and if they're ranked high enough to push sales to your permafree. I do not know what your permafree did before KU. I really don't know anything.

I'm certainly glad your permafrees still do well though!

I still see you as an outlier to the overall current trend.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Briteka said:


> This really doesn't tell me anything. I don't know your rankings of further books and if they're ranked high enough to push sales to your permafree. I do not know what your permafree did before KU. I really don't know anything.
> 
> I'm certainly glad your permafrees still do well though!
> 
> I still see you as an outlier to the overall current trend.


Actually, my perma frees do the same as Annie's so ... I guess it depends? I wish I had been in there during these long ago golden days, because then I would have more than doubled my income.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

X. Aratare said:


> Actually, my perma frees do the same as Annie's so ... I guess it depends? I wish I had been in there during these long ago golden days, because then I would have more than doubled my income.


They weren't that long ago. They were less than a year ago.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

My perma-free on the series that was out before KU did exactly what it does now. It stays pretty consistent.  Sell-through to book 2 (and the 4 book bundle) is about 20-22% each (3-5 sales a day average). Book 2, 3, and 4 are in KU, the bundle is not (just exclusive, not in the Select program), page reads usually add about equal to 1-2 borrows each a day.

My perma-free that is post KU is pretty recent (went free at end of April). None of the books in that series are in KU. I get about 30-40% sell-through on that one. (50-80 downloads a day, book 2 generally gets 20-30 sales a day- these are Amazon only numbers, I don't know exactly what the downloads are for other sites since they are harder to track).

And, as I pointed out, I'm not an outlier. I know a lot of people using permafree to good effect. It's still a very viable tactic, especially with longer series. Sorry if it doesn't work for you, but that doesn't meant it is dead.  Plus there are tons of ways to promo permafree and Bookbub freebie runs are amazing (gave away 60k with mine, and made about 15k extra monies that month just in follow-on sales)


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2015)

Briteka said:


> There's a lot more free competition now that so many authors are in KU. Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate.


My permafree is doing way more than that (100/day) and I'm a nobody with no advertising. Now I'm curious where your stats are coming from?


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I have experienced the opposite.
I have serials, and full novels...and my serials outsell my standalones by 3 to 1 all the way to 10 to 1.
I still release full novels every now and then, but I'll stick with publishing my books as serials as long as readers respond to them.


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

THANK GOD! When I first saw that title, I thought I'd never see Cheerios again. Or Raisin Bran or Special K. I LOVE those cereals!

Now, as far as serials go, yeah, I can see your point. They do work, however, for some writers. So the jury is still out on that one.

Now back to my Corn Flakes and to wipe the milk dripping from my nose.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate.


Is this based on your own experience, or observations from several authors? I've found sell-through on Kobo far higher than on Amazon.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

You're not denying readers who prefer a whole book by publishing in series or serial; they just have to wait for it to be completed before starting (a personal decision). Not all readers must have the whole thing in hand before starting.

Hugh Howey has done very well with his latest serialized novel (as well as his previous series). Unless you have a group of very vocal serial/series haters you wish to coddle, then it seems the only other reason I can see for waiting is to try the 4+1 method (or was it 5+1?), which is not something I personally follow.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Briteka said:


> There's a lot more free competition now that so many authors are in KU. Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate.
> 
> ETA: Permafree itself can still be a good strategy, though I'd recommend an established pen name to start their funnel now at $.99 instead. What doesn't work is the K Matthew method that so many of us saw success with before.


My Permafree on Barnes and Nobles gets about 40 a day and I've never advertised it, but it doesn't do as well on Ibooks and Kobo. Those sites are never as kind to me as Barnes and Nobles. On Amazon, I've never even attempted to have them price match. Permafree on the zon never worked well for me and I actually sell a few copies of the story here and there, so I'm in no hurry for them to match. I'm actually hoping it takes them a while to notice.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2015)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> You're not denying readers who prefer a whole book by publishing in series or serial; they just have to wait for it to be completed before starting (a personal decision). Not all readers must have the whole thing in hand before starting.
> 
> Hugh Howey has done very well with his latest serialized novel (as well as his previous series). Unless you have a group of very vocal serial/series haters you wish to coddle, then it seems the only other reason I can see for waiting is to try the 4+1 method (or was it 5+1?), which is not something I personally follow.


THIS.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Plus there are tons of ways to promo permafree and Bookbub freebie runs are amazing (gave away 60k with mine, and made about 15k extra monies that month just in follow-on sales)


But if you are in Select...you don't have to be permafree since you get 5 free days per 3 months. You can still schedule free days for promos...right?


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

JessHayek69 said:


> But if you are in Select...you don't have to be permafree since you get 5 free days per 3 months. You can still schedule free days for promos...right?


You can't be in select and do permafree for a title, because Amazon is price matching from another site. Obviously, you are free all the time and get (hopefully) more visibility and a funnel for the other books in your series. So basically make those 5 days forever ... and there's permafree for you.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Melody Simmons said:


> Cliffhangers are not fine by me and many other readers. I avoid them and often see negative reviews posted to them.


I do love a good a cliffhanger. The problem with so many of the cliffhangers in books, and the few serials I have read, is that few authors seem to know what a cliffhanger really is. I have read mysteries that should have been a standalone, where the author takes you right up to the very last scene and just stops. If you want to read the last scene, you have to buy another book. No! I actually read a book once that stopped in mid sentence. I'm not kidding. "She raised her gun and ..." Thoroughly p*ssed me off. That is one of the reasons I don't read serials.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> But if you are in Select...you don't have to be permafree since you get 5 free days per 3 months. You can still schedule free days for promos...right?


Yep. That's why I'm not in Select with anything I want free. My EF series has first book wide and perma-free, others in Select. My UF is completely wide, no Select at all.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Melody Simmons said:


> Cliffhangers are not fine by me and many other readers. I avoid them and often see negative reviews posted to them.


I wonder how many cliffhangers these days are honest cliffhangers where the current section actually had an end and now there's a new thing that's left unresolved. As opposed to 'And THIS is where I would put a chapter break' like the choppers use.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Cliffhanger: the character is literally left hanging on the edge of a cliff. And credits.

I have shook my head at this thread for days now. Raise your hand if you write cliffhangers in the majority of your books. ::Raising my hand:: Raise your hand if you've spent hours, days, months dissecting and analyzing stories from some of the greatest and longest running TV shows of all time. ::Raising my TV controller hand::

Everyone hates cliffhangers . . . if a story was good enough to get you there. But it's utter malarkey to think a great story that gets the reader to the very edge of that cliff and stops is somehow bad. It sells books. Sure, individuals may hate it, and SAY they won't ever, never, ever, never, no really never, read another book like that again. But the data says if that's true, they are in that 10-15% of readers who are strong enough to walk away or just haven't learned the next episode is out. 

There is a very strong medium in everyone's living room that gets a lot more hours from customers than books. And that's the television. Scoff all you want, but we now live in a consumer culture that expects content in episodic morsels and there's a word for the series that don't connect those episodes all together. Cancelled.

I have an over 80% sell-through rate on my two series. I'm going to stick with writing stories that serves that 80% with a nice arc and the perfect setup to the next episode. And having a bundle for the readers who want that 500 page historical novel of 4 Acts hasn't cannibalized my novella sales at all. The readers who prefer to binge read wait for the bundle, those who like the mental torture that's so good it's pleasurable buy the novellas.  

Personally, I'm 50-50. Some shows and book series I will happily snatch every installment when it comes out. Others? Meh, I'll wait and see if it wraps up first. Doesn't make one superior to the other, because whatever my tastes are, someone out there has the opposite feelings about the two shows or book series, so it's best if there are the different formats for everyone. 

Call me a chopper. I don't mind. But don't think for one second I didn't perfectly plan the emotional moment of where I ended a book. And I extend that professional courtesy to my fellow authors and expect they probably did the same.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

vlmain said:


> I do love a good a cliffhanger. The problem with so many of the cliffhangers in books, and the few serials I have read, is that few authors seem to know what a cliffhanger really is. I have read mysteries that should have been a standalone, where the author takes you right up to the very last scene and just stops. If you want to read the last scene, you have to buy another book. No! I actually read a book once that stopped in mid sentence. I'm not kidding. "She raised her gun and ..." Thoroughly p*ssed me off. That is one of the reasons I don't read serials.


Based on your reaction to that book (mine would be the same), the ending would be "She raised her gun and..." Shot herself in the foot.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I have shook my head at this thread for days now. Raise your hand if you write cliffhangers in the majority of your books. ::Raising my hand:: Raise your hand if you've spent hours, days, months dissecting and analyzing stories from some of the greatest and longest running TV shows of all time. ::Raising my TV controller hand::
> 
> Everyone hates cliffhangers . . . if a story was good enough to get you there. But it's utter malarkey to think a great story that gets the reader to the very edge of that cliff and stops is somehow bad. It sells books. Sure, individuals may hate it, and SAY they won't ever, never, ever, never, no really never, read another book like that again. But the data says if that's true, they are in that 10-15% of readers who are strong enough to walk away or just haven't learned the next episode is out.


We think alike on this. First of all, I love TV. Love Fargo, Mad Men, Game of Thrones, True Detective (season one), The Good Wife, and the list just goes on...a heck of a lot of the best TV has cliffhangers. And it's some of the best written stuff (imo) has cliffhangers.

I personally enjoy the format and I've found a lot of success with it in my own writing.

Yes, it gets complaints. But everyone these days complains about pretty much everything. My job is to try and separate out the complaints vs the stuff that really affects my bottom line and my business. Impacts it negatively.

A lot of writers honestly, in my opinion, just give way too much credence to individual reader reactions. You can see how people come on these boards upset over one bad review. I've had a lot more than one.

But I look at the purchasing of book after book in series, and I see that a lot of readers enjoy and can't wait for the next book to come out. And I can see that clearly it's working on the whole. Readers truly do vote with their wallets.

People saying that they hate serials honestly means less than nothing to me. Especially other writers. Why do I care that an author hates serials again? Why does that matter in the least to me?

I'm running a business, and other authors are frankly not my customers.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> People saying that they hate serials honestly means less than nothing to me. Especially other writers. Why do I care that an author hates serials again? Why does that matter in the least to me?


THIS, and THANK YOU.


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

Thank you.

I actually got so tired at the comments (especially one review that MOCKED the serial model and called me greedy) about serials and length that in my Part One description for a serial, I put that it's a SERIAL and the lengths of each one as well as the cost. I said, if you don't like the format or the prices, don't buy it.

I'd say 90% of my sales are my serials. And the hate they get is just astounding considering nobody makes people buy them. they can walk away at ANY time. 



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Cliffhanger: the character is literally left hanging on the edge of a cliff. And credits.
> 
> ....
> 
> Call me a chopper. I don't mind. But don't think for one second I didn't perfectly plan the emotional moment of where I ended a book. And I extend that professional courtesy to my fellow authors and expect they probably did the same.


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Briteka said:


> There's a lot more free competition now that so many authors are in KU. Free downloads overall are down, and read through is down as well. You'll notice it when you launch a new pen name. iTunes, Apple and Play are like the golden days of Amazon permafree, where you'll have 50-100 free downloads a day without advertising, and a sell through rate of about 25 percent. Meanwhile, Amazon settles in around 6-7 free downloads a day without advertising and a very, very low sell through rate.
> 
> ETA: Permafree itself can still be a good strategy, though I'd recommend an established pen name to start their funnel now at $.99 instead. What doesn't work is the K Matthew method that so many of us saw success with before.


So, out of curiosity... Are you saying serials may perform better going wide vs KU?

I've been a lurker forever and soon launching my erom series. I've been procrastinating because I can't decide between the two. Made a pros and cons list but that didn't help lol.

Just would like your opinion 

Or if anyone else has an opinion, that would be awesome too!


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I had my serials in KU once after it came out and my sales tanked. It was okay for first month, but after that, I was making just as little as before I put them in, they were NO longer wide, and the first book wasn't free to encourage people to give it a try that weren't in KU.

They only lasted 90 days, and I will say, my serials with a perma-free do well all throughout every sales channel they are on. For me, it's worth it.



KinkyWriter said:


> So, out of curiosity... Are you saying serials may perform better going wide vs KU?
> 
> I've been a lurker forever and soon launching my erom series. I've been procrastinating because I can't decide between the two. Made a pros and cons list but that didn't help lol.
> 
> ...


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Violet Haze said:


> I had my serials in KU once after it came out and my sales tanked. It was okay for first month, but after that, I was making just as little as before I put them in, they were NO longer wide, and the first book wasn't free to encourage people to give it a try that weren't in KU.
> 
> They only lasted 90 days, and I will say, my serials with a perma-free do well all throughout every sales channel they are on. For me, it's worth it.


Thank you so much for your input!

I've like 99% sure about going wide but then I check the Amazon bestseller's list and I've seen a lot of new break-out books (in a series) be in the top 100. Those particular ones are in KU. So, I'm like ugh! Maybe I should just do KU. Lol.

Thanks again


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Annie B said:


> My perma-free on the series that was out before KU did exactly what it does now. It stays pretty consistent. Sell-through to book 2 (and the 4 book bundle) is about 20-22% each (3-5 sales a day average). Book 2, 3, and 4 are in KU, the bundle is not (just exclusive, not in the Select program), page reads usually add about equal to 1-2 borrows each a day.
> 
> My perma-free that is post KU is pretty recent (went free at end of April). None of the books in that series are in KU. I get about 30-40% sell-through on that one. (50-80 downloads a day, book 2 generally gets 20-30 sales a day- these are Amazon only numbers, I don't know exactly what the downloads are for other sites since they are harder to track).
> 
> And, as I pointed out, I'm not an outlier. I know a lot of people using permafree to good effect. It's still a very viable tactic, especially with longer series. Sorry if it doesn't work for you, but that doesn't meant it is dead. Plus there are tons of ways to promo permafree and Bookbub freebie runs are amazing (gave away 60k with mine, and made about 15k extra monies that month just in follow-on sales)


You actually are an outlier. There seems to be some confusion on what we're talking about and the way Amazon's algos work.

Your permafrees are the first books in a high-selling series that is receiving quite a lot of visibility from Amazon OUTSIDE of the permafree. That's why your read-through is so high (honestly, probably the highest I've ever seen someone claim on Amazon... quite the outlier). Amazon is giving your third and fourth books visibility, and people are going to buy the series... of which the first book (and maybe the second book?) are permafree.

This is entirely different than a permafree fueling a series. Your series is fueling your permafree. I understand your permafrees are doing well, but you must see you're an outlier. I mean, you have several very high-selling series and bounce on and off the top authors on Kindle list. You DO see that that isn't typical, right? You DO understand that you have things going on with Amazon's algos that aren't at all typical, making your results completely out of whack from everyone else's.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

I LOVE Cliffhangers!!!

It's like a long distance relationship. Sucks while you're apart, except that love is building and building every moment, and then when you get back together it goes off. If it's good enough, you appreciate every damn second you get with the person.. Until next time...

Of course, if you can't sell your serials then maybe it's worth trying something new. You can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. Only.... make sure that it being a 'serial' is the thing that's wrong with it....


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

KinkyWriter said:


> So, out of curiosity... Are you saying serials may perform better going wide vs KU?
> 
> I've been a lurker forever and soon launching my erom series. I've been procrastinating because I can't decide between the two. Made a pros and cons list but that didn't help lol.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on length. Honestly, right now, all my erom serials are going into KU for 90 days, and I'll reevaluate after. I've also increased the length of each installment. Before the KU changes, my installments were slightly more than 10k each, and I've bumped them up to 20k. I've pulled everything that was at 10k and put them wide.

All of my serials that are wide are still supported by a permafree. I'm about to about 54 of them now, and they still do very well on other retailers. When KU hit, I saw a drastic loss of income on Amazon, and I haven't been able to get that back without going into KU. If I decide to do a 90 days and out strategy going forward, I will still put the first of each series permafree when I go wide.

I'm not sure how to launch a new pen name these days. My old strategy (the K Matthew method) just doesn't work anymore, and I'm not sure where I'd be if I didn't already have established pen names. Honestly, I think I'm going to stop launching new pen names now and just use what I have, even if they cover several different genres.


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## KinkyWriter (Mar 17, 2015)

Briteka said:


> I think it depends on length. Honestly, right now, all my erom serials are going into KU for 90 days, and I'll reevaluate after. I've also increased the length of each installment. Before the KU changes, my installments were slightly more than 10k each, and I've bumped them up to 20k. I've pulled everything that was at 10k and put them wide.
> 
> All of my serials that are wide are still supported by a permafree. I'm about to about 54 of them now, and they still do very well on other retailers. When KU hit, I saw a drastic loss of income on Amazon, and I haven't been able to get that back without going into KU. If I decide to do a 90 days and out strategy going forward, I will still put the first of each series permafree when I go wide.
> 
> I'm not sure how to launch a new pen name these days. My old strategy (the K Matthew method) just doesn't work anymore, and I'm not sure where I'd be if I didn't already have established pen names. Honestly, I think I'm going to stop launching new pen names now and just use what I have, even if they cover several different genres.


Thank you for your response. This really helps. I just saw your response after I made a poll for people to vote if they would do KU or go wide in my scenario lol. Nevertheless, your input is appreciated and insightful.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Briteka said:


> You actually are an outlier. There seems to be some confusion on what we're talking about and the way Amazon's algos work.
> 
> Your permafrees are the first books in a high-selling series that is receiving quite a lot of visibility from Amazon OUTSIDE of the permafree. That's why your read-through is so high (honestly, probably the highest I've ever seen someone claim on Amazon... quite the outlier). Amazon is giving your third and fourth books visibility, and people are going to buy the series... of which the first book (and maybe the second book?) are permafree.


The algorithms explain the initial discovery of the free book, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the read through rate. The read through rate comes from the reader enjoying the first book enough to want to read the next one, and the next one, and so on. That has nothing to do with algorithms, it has everything to do with writing a good book.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Briteka said:


> You actually are an outlier. There seems to be some confusion on what we're talking about and the way Amazon's algos work.
> 
> Your permafrees are the first books in a high-selling series that is receiving quite a lot of visibility from Amazon OUTSIDE of the permafree. That's why your read-through is so high (honestly, probably the highest I've ever seen someone claim on Amazon... quite the outlier). Amazon is giving your third and fourth books visibility, and people are going to buy the series... of which the first book (and maybe the second book?) are permafree.
> 
> This is entirely different than a permafree fueling a series. Your series is fueling your permafree. I understand your permafrees are doing well, but you must see you're an outlier. I mean, you have several very high-selling series and bounce on and off the top authors on Kindle list. You DO see that that isn't typical, right? You DO understand that you have things going on with Amazon's algos that aren't at all typical, making your results completely out of whack from everyone else's.


Then I'm an outlier with a hundred best friends, cause I know lots of people who do as well or better with their permafrees than I do. Sigh. I guess that "algo love most people don't get" could mean "you sell well, thus getting algo love people who don't sell well don't enjoy" in which case... nah, I think I'd still disagree with you. Books 2 and 3 and 4 sell because of this thing called...readers want to buy more of my books. Because my books are good and they want to read more. That's why there is good sell-through. Algos might sell book 1, but good writing sells the others. But hey, tell yourself differently if it makes you feel better. Carry on.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

vlmain said:


> The algorithms explain the initial discovery of the free book, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the read through rate. The read through rate comes from the reader enjoying the first book enough to want to read the next one, and the next one, and so on. That has nothing to do with algorithms, it has everything to do with writing a good book.


Free books on their own bring in a certain type of reader - those that suck up free books like a vacuum. These people have more books than they can ever possibly read, and it's completely random as to whether they'll actually even get around to reading your book, let alone like it enough to spend money. The people who are looking for a new series to read and stumble across a highly visible series and download the first book, which happens to be permafree, are much more likely to read that first book.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Then I'm an outlier with a hundred best friends, cause I know lots of people who do as well or better with their permafrees than I do. Sigh. I guess that "algo love most people don't get" could mean "you sell well, thus getting algo love people who don't sell well don't enjoy" in which case... nah, I think I'd still disagree with you. Books 2 and 3 and 4 sell because of this thing called...readers want to buy more of my books. Because my books are good and they want to read more. That's why there is good sell-through. Algos might sell book 1, but good writing sells the others. But hey, tell yourself differently if it makes you feel better. Carry on.


As usual, we'll have to agree to disagree.  Have a nice day.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Boyd said:


> Ignore serials and cliffhangers if you want to ignore money. Heck, people ignore me and I'm definitely not an outlier, but I still sell five figures worth of books off one set of serials alone.
> 
> Think about it like this: Do you listen to the vocal minority, or do your own research and go with the silent majority who are one clicking? Me? I like money.
> 
> Peace.


Complainers just talk the loudest (I know cuz I am one). Luckily, the whole world of readers isn't made up of people like me...lol


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Briteka said:


> Free books on their own bring in a certain type of reader - those that suck up free books like a vacuum. These people have more books than they can ever possibly read, and it's completely random as to whether they'll actually even get around to reading your book, let alone like it enough to spend money. The people who are looking for a new series to read and stumble across a highly visible series and download the first book, which happens to be permafree, are much more likely to read that first book.


Do you have any stats you can share on that? Because I have discovered a few favorite writers because of a free book I saw on bookbub. I read the book, I liked it, I went looking for other books they had written, or if they listed their other books in the back, I clicked on them and went from there. I don't think I am unusual in this regard.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Boyd said:


> Ignore serials and cliffhangers if you want to ignore money. Heck, people ignore me and I'm definitely not an outlier, but I still sell five figures worth of books off one set of serials alone.
> 
> Think about it like this: Do you listen to the vocal minority, or do your own research and go with the silent majority who are one clicking? Me? I like money.
> 
> Peace.


I think we should define the context of "serial" in this discussion. Your books are 100+ pages each, which is enough to stand on its own without the "you cut your book into parts!" attack. I think 100 pages is enough to satisfy most readers, especially for the .99 price. ( My serials were much shorter, about 25 pages each. )

I do think page count is a factor to consider. Or is it possible for a 300 page book to be considered a "serial" ? (for example)

And making 5 figures from .99 cent priced books is impressive! Only 35% royalty, correct?


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> I think we should define the context of "serial" in this discussion. Your books are 100+ pages each, which is enough to stand on its own without the "you cut your book into parts!" My serials were much shorter, about 25 pages each.
> 
> I do think page count is a factor to consider. Or is it possible for a 300 page book to be a "serial" ? (for example)


Well I have some shorter serials that do great. Yes, some complaints--maybe even a lot depending on your standards. The sales numbers are what matters. How many hours it takes to write and produce vs how much you get paid. I make more money per word on serials BY FAR and its not even close...


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

gorvnice said:


> Complainers just talk the loudest (I know cuz I am one). Luckily, the whole world of readers isn't made up of people like me...lol


I don't consider myself a complainer, nor you, for that matter, but ask our opinion and we will give it. What a person does with the information we give them is entirely up to them.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Well I have some shorter serials that do great. Yes, some complaints--maybe even a lot depending on your standards. The sales numbers are what matters. How many hours it takes to write and produce vs how much you get paid. I make more money per word on serials BY FAR and its not even close...


Sales or KENP (Kindle Edition Normalized Pages) ? or both?


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> Sales or KENP? or both?


Both. I have serials out of KU and in KU. There are advantages to each way of doing business. KU offers visibility, algo love, and the free lure. Going wide offers more potential stability in knowing what you're making as you go.

For serials outside of KU, I have higher prices.

People complain sometimes about the prices. They complain about all sorts of things. Some say they're not going to continue reading anymore for various reasons.

BUT when I do the math, I clearly see that shorter, serialized books consistently out-earn longer books on a per word basis. And that's important to remember.

People often say that novels do better--but have they really thought about the math? If you can earn even HALF of what a 60,000 word novel earns with a 15,000 word serial segment, that's a huge win. And in my opinion, it's absolutely possible. The time investment of writing longer works can't be denied. You need to earn a lot more to make up for that time investment.

In the time it takes for someone else to write and release one novel, I can possibly have put out four or five episodes of a serial. Even if their novel outperforms one or two of my serial episodes in overall earnings, I'm still making more money with the same amount of words...


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Both. I have serials out of KU and in KU. There are advantages to each way of doing business. KU offers visibility, algo love, and the free lure. Going wide offers more potential stability in knowing what you're making as you go.
> 
> For serials outside of KU, I have higher prices.
> 
> ...


What is your target word count per serial? 15K? How many pages is that?

My newest release (Wanted by the White Tiger) is around there (77 pages total)


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> What is your target word count per serial? 15K?


I have a serial that hovers around 10k and some that are more in the 20-30k range. I've been doing this awhile, so I have a bunch of different lengths and series that I've done. Strangely, the shorter series have much more complaints and bad reviews but I've made a lot more money per word. So in the end, even with all the negative blowback, from a business perspective writing shorter works.

You just have to find where, if you go too low, the market won't tolerate it anymore. I think below 10k is almost impossible for the market to tolerate...


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> You just have to find where, if you go too low, the market won't tolerate it anymore. I think below 10k is almost impossible for the market to tolerate...


I think that was part of the problem for me. I was releasing 5K words. Did good in KU1.0 thanks to borrow payout but that is all gone now  Shooting for 15-20K per book now


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> I think below 10k is almost impossible for the market to tolerate...


I'm not convinced that's the case. However, I am convinced that having patience as an author is a dying quality.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

JessHayek69 said:


> I think that was part of the problem for me. I was releasing 5K words. Did good in KU1.0 thanks to borrow payout but that is all gone now  Shooting for 15-20K per book now


Aha. That does explain a lot. Rather than blaming the serialization aspect, I'd say that you simply dipped below non-KU market tolerance. And with payout changing, simply getting page reads from KU wasn't cutting it anymore.

I know several people who this happened to as well. You can possibly adjust by combining episodes and charging higher prices out of KU (at least 2.99), and then releasing longer episodes in the future. But the serial is alive and well--don't be discouraged!


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I'm not convinced that's the case. However, I am convinced that having patience as an author is a dying quality.


You may be right. I think at 99 cents below 10k words is doable. But that hits the pocketbook hard when you can't get that higher royalty and now with page reads being the thing, you can't make the per borrow payout on KU. So it's just tougher sledding with work below 10k...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> However, I am convinced that having patience as an author is a dying quality.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> You may be right. I think at 99 cents below 10k words is doable. But that hits the pocketbook hard when you can't get that higher royalty and now with page reads being the thing, you can't make the per borrow payout on KU. So it's just tougher sledding with work below 10k...


Are you saying that serial's over 10k should be priced higher than .99? Cause the ones i'm writing now are around 11k each(Originally 10k)


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

RKC said:


> http://www.storymastery.com/story/structuring-tv-series-episodes/
> 
> http://storyfix.com/story-structure-television


Thanks for the links, RKC. Now that I've accepted that I'm writing a serial, I'm having some trouble figuring out what to do next.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> I wonder how many cliffhangers these days are honest cliffhangers where the current section actually had an end and now there's a new thing that's left unresolved. As opposed to 'And THIS is where I would put a chapter break' like the choppers use.


This is what I'm doing, which is actually why I didn't realize I was writing a serial? I thought serial was ... you just stop.

In my case, each episode so far (all two of them) has had a central story question that resolves in THAT episode, with a new story question opened in the last chapter to create the cliffhanger. Is that what you mean?


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I'm not convinced that's the case. However, I am convinced that having patience as an author is a dying quality.


Marathon not a sprint?  (Opens can of worms)


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

JessHayek69 said:


> Marathon not a sprint?  (Opens can of worms)


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

My two cents: I have both series with standalone books and serials with cliffhangers. The latter pay the bills. Not only that. Serials and cliffhangers have built my mailing list and my reader groups. YMMV of course, and my serials average 30K per episode, but the format can and does sell very well if done properly.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Looks like someone dug up the horse skeleton for a few more rounds of beating. So let's just get this out of the way pretty quickly:

Serials work for some people but not for others. Just like standalones work for some people but not for others. Just like permafree works for some people but not for others. Just like KU works for some people but not for others. _Just like pretty much *everything* in self-publishing works for some people but not for others. _

Even if you don't like cliffhangers and you see reviews from readers complaining about it, there are still a lot of people who love them. I think the popularity of serialized television attests to this. If cliffhangers were so universally hated, they wouldn't be so ubiquitous in TV these days, so much so that they're even now finding their ways into franchise films.

Just because you don't like serials or cliffhangers doesn't mean your opinion is universal. Or even the majority. Don't like serials, don't read them. Don't like cliffhangers, then the first time one appears stop reading that author. But seems pretty ridiculous to get pissed when authors do these things--they do them because there ARE readers who like them. And those are the readers they're targeting.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Briteka said:


> Free books on their own bring in a certain type of reader - those that suck up free books like a vacuum. These people have more books than they can ever possibly read, and it's completely random as to whether they'll actually even get around to reading your book, let alone like it enough to spend money. The people who are looking for a new series to read and stumble across a highly visible series and download the first book, which happens to be permafree, are much more likely to read that first book.


Yeah, that hasn't been my experience nor the experience of many people I know. Free has saved people I know, ie they weren't selling, they set first book free, and things took off.

But you go on believing what you believe. Enjoy that  The rest of us will be over here using real strategies for a reason and reaping the rewards.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Yeah, that hasn't been my experience nor the experience of many people I know. Free has saved people I know, ie they weren't selling, they set first book free, and things took off.
> 
> But you go on believing what you believe. Enjoy that  The rest of us will be over here using real strategies for a reason and reaping the rewards.


Ugh. You've already admitted in a past conversation that you don't pay attention to Amazon's algos and don't know how the pop lists work. You don't even understand the basic concept of "Free buyers" and Amazon visibility, yet you have the confrontational ego of someone that is an expert. You're really doing a disservice to new publishers.

As I said before, but you just could not leave it alone, we'll have to agree to disagree. I won't be responding to you any longer because it's like bashing my head against a wall.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I just want to jump in and say that permafree didn't work well for me. I got a bunch of downloads during promos and then slowly fell to about 10 downloads a day. Sell through on Amazon was around 1%.

I am sure more commercial series do better, but I have never heard of a romance author breaking 20% sell through from permafree to paid. Most people I know consider 3% average.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Crystal_ said:


> I just want to jump in and say that permafree didn't work well for me. I got a bunch of downloads during promos and then slowly fell to about 10 downloads a day. Sell through on Amazon was around 1%.
> 
> I am sure more commercial series do better, but I have never heard of a romance author breaking 20% sell through from permafree to paid. Most people I know consider 3% average.


Because it doesn't happen. I was always on the high end at 10 percent, and that percentage always falls as the series loses steam and falls out of Amazon's promotional ecosystem. I hit about 2 percent conversion once a series is finally dead, and that's my average for a series once the permafree is driving 80-90 percent of sales.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Briteka said:


> Ugh. You've already admitted in a past conversation that you don't pay attention to Amazon's algos and don't know how the pop lists work. You don't even understand the basic concept of "Free buyers" and Amazon visibility, yet you have the confrontational ego of someone that is an expert. You're really doing a disservice to new publishers.
> 
> As I said before, but you just could not leave it alone, we'll have to agree to disagree. I won't be responding to you any longer because it's like bashing my head against a wall.


I pay attention to the algos, but not the pop lists. The pop lists come and go too much and I am not sure how to make them work for me, so I don't bother. I do pay attention to the algos and alsoboughts, keywords, genre lists, etc. So not sure where you got impression I didn't.

I just know too many people including myself who have had freebies work to completely turn around a series that wasn't selling to believe that it is somehow visibility in later books that makes a freebie work and not the freebie visibility itself, sorry. The stuff you seem to be saying runs counter to all my own experiences. Freebie readers don't convert at same rate paid ones due, it is true (20%-30% conversion from free vs 60% conversion from paid, for example, on the same book/series, so there is clearly a difference there but not one that would make me not utilize free in many cases), but they do convert and many go on to become paid customers.

If your freebies aren't converting over 10%, my advice would be to either run more promo and get them visible again, or maybe add a preview of book two to the end of book 1's file, or try things like that. Good books will cause people who read them to want more and go on to buy more of the series, too. Never underestimate the power of good writing.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Because it doesn't happen. I was always on the high end at 10 percent, and that percentage always falls as the series loses steam and falls out of Amazon's promotional ecosystem. I hit about 2 percent conversion once a series is finally dead, and that's my average for a series once the permafree is driving 80-90 percent of sales.


I have friends who get 10% sell through on Amazon in romance and I consider that good. They tend to do better on Apple, especially if they manage to get an internal promotion. (The stuff of legendary months!)

Heck, Annie Jacoby is always posting her exact numbers and none of them break 20%. But I'm not going to speak for her 

It's likely romance is more saturated with freebies than other genres, but the people who do the best with a permafree (from my observation), are getting a lot of their sales on Apple or Nook.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Briteka said:


> Because it doesn't happen. I was always on the high end at 10 percent, and that percentage always falls as the series loses steam and falls out of Amazon's promotional ecosystem. I hit about 2 percent conversion once a series is finally dead, and that's my average for a series once the permafree is driving 80-90 percent of sales.


It may not happen often, but that does not mean it never happens or can't happen.

This thread is getting dangerously close to sounding as if one is suggesting another poster is not being honest. Let's not go there, okay?


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

I recently tried perma-free book one of a trilogy that was performing poorly, usually about 20 sales per book per month. Here are the results so far:

*May: (No perma-free) *
Book 1- 31 Book 2- 16 Book 3- 42 Trilogy Bundle- 27 (Gross approx $42

*June: (Perma-free book1, series of ads, reduced book 2 to $2.99, book 3 remained $3.99) Approx $150 for ads*
Book 1- 6,533 free downloads, Book 2- 186 Book 3- 167 Trilogy Bundle- 76 (Gross approx $1675)

*July: (Perma-free, same pricing, $10 ad)*
Book 1- 1,191 free, Book 2- 201 Book 3- 180 Trilogy Bundle- 211 (Gross approx $2,583)

If you measure success by the percentage of book 2 sales compared to book 1 downloads, my numbers are poor, but I think that's the wrong way to look at it. All those compilers who downloaded the book and never got around to reading it weren't going to buy my book anyway. The added visibility the perma-free gave me, the impulse buys of the bundle or the subsequent books improved my rankings and got me on some lists, and the resulting spread to the also-boughts of other books in the genre have been more than worth it. I also noticed a sharp increase in audio sales. Most are book 1 "Whispersync" sales so they don't earn much money, but I'm seeing increases in the other audiobooks in the series. So, I have to say perma-free with advertising has been a good deal for me. Your mileage may vary.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Marathon not a sprint?  (Opens can of worms)


I'm no longer with publishers, and I've only been self-published for a little over a year. I used to write dystopian, and now I'm paranormal romance. I got to four figures as a self-published author with dystopian within four months, but I screwed up by not publishing fast enough. Now I'm starting over with paranormal romance. I'd like to be back to four figures by the end of this year. However, if I reach it within a year or two, I'm fine with that.

I can afford to be patience. However, I know a lot of authors want or need to hit their goals right away.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> I recently tried perma-free book one of a trilogy that was performing poorly, usually about 20 sales per book per month. Here are the results so far:
> 
> *May: (No perma-free) *
> Book 1- 31 Book 2- 16 Book 3- 42 Trilogy Bundle- 27 (Gross approx $42
> ...


Thanks for posting, I'll be doing this with a trilogy soon, so great to see these figures.

Also, does the box set work out for you generally? I was in two minds about doing one....


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

B. Yard said:


> Thanks for posting, I'll be doing this with a trilogy soon, so great to see these figures.
> 
> Also, does the box set work out for you generally? I was in two minds about doing one....


I think it's worthwhile. Some people seem to prefer the set while others don't want to drop $5-6 on an author they haven't tried, but will take a chance on a free or discounted book 1.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> I think it's worthwhile. Some people seem to prefer the set while others don't want to drop $5-6 on an author they haven't tried, but will take a chance on a free or discounted book 1.


It's good to see it doesn't swallow up your individual sales. I would imagine many that get the permafree then buy the box set too.

Thanks.


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I do parts, then put together...and the parts outsell the bundle by a large margin every single time. At this point I could put out a whole novel in one in a decent amount of time, but so far for me, that doesn't compare to my serial sales. I guess it just depends! 



B. Yard said:


> It's good to see it doesn't swallow up your individual sales. I would imagine many that get the permafree then buy the box set too.
> 
> Thanks.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Violet Haze said:


> I do parts, then put together...and the parts outsell the bundle by a large margin every single time. At this point I could put out a whole novel in one in a decent amount of time, but so far for me, that doesn't compare to my serial sales. I guess it just depends!


Thanks Violet. I would imagine it would work with longer serials, I was just worried about doing it with only a trilogy. It's encouraging to see it can work though.

It gives customers another way to buy your work, and also creates more presence so I think I might go for it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I just want to jump in and say that permafree didn't work well for me. I got a bunch of downloads during promos and then slowly fell to about 10 downloads a day. Sell through on Amazon was around 1%.
> 
> I am sure more commercial series do better, but I have never heard of a romance author breaking 20% sell through from permafree to paid. Most people I know consider 3% average.


I have only one series, the rest of my historical novels are standalone. I put the most popular one (not in a series) as permafree at the end of February and it is has had over 50,000 downloads and is still getting between 2,000 and 4,000 per month. I know some of my new readers and new subscribers found me through this book, because they have said so in reviews. The book has also been picked up by bloggers which I didn't ask for.

That has been my experience. For anyone to say it doesn't work at all is like someone saying ghosts are definitely not real because I don't believe in them.

I put one of my books on countdown last November, it got picked up by a new promo site who advertised it to their subscribers for free and it sold 200 copies in the first day. This was a book which had sold a few copies to begin with but none since until this promo. It is still selling. I have put other books on that same site and got very little response. So am I saying this site is great, it will definitely sell your book or am I saying don't bother, it's no good?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I am definitely not implying that Annie B is lying. I am sure those are her numbers and I am genuinely happy for her that she is rocking permafree so hard.

I just want to share a perspective on my numbers and what I have seen and heard. All my experience is in NA or e-rom, genres saturated with a lot of cheap and free books. I don't know how that changes things, but based on what I have seen, the sell through is lower for freebies.

Didn't work for one of my series. It might still work for another. If KU doesn't work for that one, I'll try a permafree. Different things work for different people, but from what I hear, permafree doesn't work as well as it used to for most people.

But at this point we are really not talking about serials, so perhaps we should get back on track.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I am definitely not implying that Annie B is lying. I am sure those are her numbers and I am genuinely happy for her that she is rocking permafree so hard.
> 
> I just want to share a perspective on my numbers and what I have seen and heard. All my experience is in NA or e-rom, genres saturated with a lot of cheap and free books. I don't know how that changes things, but based on what I have seen, the sell through is lower for freebies.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to imply anything, Crystal. Sorry if I gave that impression; I know I can come across as abrupt, argumentative and self opinionated - probably all true - I just get very angry with anyone who says something doesn't work or isn't real, because they have no experience of it. I have read people saying they've had fantastic sales from the other sites, via D2D, but my experience is they don't like my books. Even my free one, 50,000 downloads on Amazon, a grand total of 80 via D2D! So I don't pretend D2D is no good, I just know it is no good for me. It does sell a few copies of my non-fiction though, but then so does the paperback version.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> I am sure more commercial series do better, but I have never heard of a romance author breaking 20% sell through from permafree to paid. Most people I know consider 3% average.


I broke 20% on mystery and I had over 100k in free downloads when I made the first in series permfree. AFTER all those sales happened, Amazon began pushing my books in emails, etc. AFTER.

Permafree is still the absolute best marketing tool for someone with a series and great books. If your book does not resonate with readers, they will not buy the rest of the series. It's that simple. I run a private loop with approx 1k members. At least half make six figures and I'd guess 50 or so of us make seven. We all got there using free to launch sales. And some as recent as this year. People have been declaring free dead for two years now. It's not. It's alive and kicking if you have the right product. I seriously doubt that the loss leader philosophy, which is the oldest trick in the marketing book, is going to be killed by publishing.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Permafree's been working pretty well for me, combined with some new covers. On my Infernum series, I ran a promo on the permafree book. Got a few thousand downloads. Since then, the second book in the series--which has traditionally been my lowest-selling title--has suddenly become my highest selling. About 70% of my sales in the month since the promo on the permafree have been on that second book. And a good portion of those sales have been paired with sales on the third book as well. People have been picking up the permafree, liked it, and then went on to buy the rest of the series at once.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> . Good books will cause people who read them to want more and go on to buy more of the series, too. Never underestimate the power of good writing.


Logically this makes sense. So the argument against permafree is that people who download free books just usually don't read them? (versus paid)


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I broke 20% on mystery and I had over 100k in free downloads when I made the first in series permfree. AFTER all those sales happened, Amazon began pushing my books in emails, etc. AFTER.
> 
> Permafree is still the absolute best marketing tool for someone with a series and great books. If your book does not resonate with readers, they will not buy the rest of the series. It's that simple. I run a private loop with approx 1k members. At least half make six figures and I'd guess 50 or so of us make seven. We all got there using free to launch sales. And some as recent as this year. People have been declaring free dead for two years now. It's not. It's alive and kicking if you have the right product. I seriously doubt that the loss leader philosophy, which is the oldest trick in the marketing book, is going to be killed by publishing.


This forum definitely needs a like button


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## Ceteris Paribus (Jul 31, 2015)

This reader certainly prefers to have everything together. I have been avoiding serials, and preferred full novels all along.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I broke 20% on mystery and I had over 100k in free downloads when I made the first in series permfree. AFTER all those sales happened, Amazon began pushing my books in emails, etc. AFTER.
> 
> Permafree is still the absolute best marketing tool for someone with a series and great books. If your book does not resonate with readers, they will not buy the rest of the series. It's that simple. I run a private loop with approx 1k members. At least half make six figures and I'd guess 50 or so of us make seven. We all got there using free to launch sales. And some as recent as this year. People have been declaring free dead for two years now. It's not. It's alive and kicking if you have the right product. I seriously doubt that the loss leader philosophy, which is the oldest trick in the marketing book, is going to be killed by publishing.


No, no, Jana. Didn't you listen? Permafree doesn't work! You and I and those hundreds of other authors making bank on our sell-through from our permafree are outliers!


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Annie B said:


> No, no, Jana. Didn't you listen? Permafree doesn't work! You and I and those hundreds of other authors making bank on our sell-through from our permafree are outliers!


I guess I didn't get the memo. LOL

So just how many of us does there have to be before we're not outliers? I keep wondering that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I guess I didn't get the memo. LOL
> 
> So just how many of us does there have to be before we're not outliers? I keep wondering that.


I'm pretty sure a lot of the time that "outlier" means "achieving something I am not/can't/won't" instead of the more traditional meaning  So... there will never be enough of us, if you go on that logic.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Just looking at this thread, there are people saying free works great for them and people saying free doesn't help them at all. Which means it's not dead *OR *the best marketing for everyone.

It means it works for some people and not others.

For some genres and not others.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> Just looking at this thread, there are people saying free works great for them and people saying free doesn't help them at all. Which means it's not dead *OR *the best marketing for everyone.
> 
> It means it works for some people and not others.
> 
> For some genres and not others.


Kboards in a microcosm.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Kboards in a microcosm.


Right? Makes my AP so much worse. Everytime I visit the boards, I'm like OOH someone doing well wide, better go wide. Someone doing well in KU, better KU. Repeat for every decision I have to make.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> Right? Makes my AP so much worse. Everytime I visit the boards, I'm like OOH someone doing well wide, better go wide. Someone doing well in KU, better KU. Repeat for every decision I have to make.


I've been here long enough to figure out that the baseline is that everything works, and nothing works, so when I built my business plan I put in the best ideas I could and will just venture forward and adjust things as the business dictates. I don't want anyone's career but my own. I'll read and listen to what works and what doesn't work and make the choices that work for me. *shrug* To do anything else would drive me nuts.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I guess I didn't get the memo. LOL
> 
> So just how many of us does there have to be before we're not outliers? I keep wondering that.


I've had my 70-100 pagers as .99 2.99 2.99

Was thinking of doing free 2.99 2.99 but with books of that length KU just kills you. Crap, i think I'm talking myself out of KU!!


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> Looks like someone dug up the horse skeleton for a few more rounds of beating. So let's just get this out of the way pretty quickly:
> 
> Serials work for some people but not for others. Just like standalones work for some people but not for others. Just like permafree works for some people but not for others. Just like KU works for some people but not for others. _Just like pretty much *everything* in self-publishing works for some people but not for others. _
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. I've seen big names on these boards doing things the exact opposite of each other, so if you do or don't do something because of what did or didn't work for someone else, you could be shooting yourself in the foot. I try everything until I find what works for ME and I never assume it would work for someone else.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

I totally get the YMMV argument. I only wished I had LISTENED to it.

So if there are any authors out there like me who felt whiplashed by people saying X works like gangbusters versus X is so last year and doesn't work at all ... TRY IT FOR YOURSELF.  

If only I had done so I would have doubled (or maybe more) my income from the individual books by trying permafree a heck of a lot earlier.  But I didn't do it, because I felt overwhelmed by the conflicting data.  

I'm doing permafree for two series. Just started the second. For the first one, its doing really well. For the second? I don't know yet.  It's not lifting the rest of the manga as well as I would like, but we'll see.

I'm using KU for another series.  Won't know if that works until I resurrect the series with the long overdue second book.  But I'm going to really test it.  

There are a lot of smart people having very different experiences, but don't assume either are outliers!  Because until you test it yourself you will NOT know!

YMMV ...


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh for crying out loud, being an outlier is NOT a bad thing.  And statistically, yes, if you are making major bank, you are an outlier. Because the vast majority of the thousands of series out there with the first book permafree do NOT make major bank/quit you day job type money. If they did, sorry to say, you and me and the others doing well with a permafree wouldn't be in the position we are in because there's only so much room in the top 100 of whatever category our books are in. Only the top 100 free books of a genre get to be on that visibility helping list, so for the other thousand+, we are the lucky few. If there are 1,000 free books in your subgenre and you are in the top 100, you are in the top 10%. To the other 90%, you are not the majority.

The point is permafree CAN work if you have everything else banging spot on for your listing, including a way or vehicle to start the initial visibility to your permafree by an audience (usually as ad, but other methods work too). 

I rock a permafree, not for what I'm gaining right now with it but what I'm building 5 years down the road with it. Yes, a very large percentage of people who download my permafree are never going to read it, that IS the nature of that funnel. It's a wide, wide net that catches readers with 0 to little interest in my book apart from that they can effortlessly possess it for free. It's just a click of a button. Then, IF I break out big etc. they can go back and go "Oooh, I already have that book for free!" and feel good about being on the pulse of up and coming authors all over again.   

The majority of indie book advertising opportunities revolves around free and 99 cents. Until or if that changes, permafree and loss leaders will always be a self-fulfilling prophecy. But there are more and more authors finding other ways, including selling books for much higher prices and using more traditional, price egalitarian channels to promote their books. And they have tried to share such tactics and methods on Kboards to a resounding crescendo of "You're leading everyone astray! You're wrong! Only permafree + Bookbub works!" 

Well, I've had an $8,000 revenue month with no permafree on the back of a double release, and a $10,000 revenue month thanks to Bookbub+permafree+larger catalog (+4 books). No I'm not a consistent 5 figure a month maker, but I will be one day. And it won't be solely on the back of a permafree but through an ever increasing catalog and diversification. A permafree can only carry you so far, because it doesn't reach ALL readers, there is a large contingent of readers who ignore free books altogether. But no one is denying it can't be a very powerful tool to wield.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Decided to stop releasing serials. From now on I will just wait until all parts of the story are complete.
> 
> Why? Because I think _most _readers prefer full and complete stories.
> 
> What say you?


Jess, I realize this thread has gone off into a direction that has nothing to do with serials, but did you change your mind about serials or are you definitely done with them?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But no one is denying it can't be a very powerful tool to wield.


Technically... yes, someone said exactly this. 

But no, every method won't work for every book or every author. Obviously. That doesn't mean it isn't a good tool.

Anyway, back to serials, they still work, but from what I've seen, you have to keep up a frequent and consistent release schedule to keep up audience. But the readership is there, if you can hit it. Pretty much just like with anything


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

So I had an idea of putting out a perma free book as a Prequel to the series. What's the lowest amount of pages do you think I can get away with while still getting into low rankings? My series is 60-110 pages, if I put a book in it free it shoots to top 500 no problem.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

What's the amount of pages you need to tell a story that will hook people into your series? That's how I'd decide how long to make the prequel.  The point of a free first taste is that you are confident it is so good that people will pay for more. So focus on making it that good.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Annie B said:


> What's the amount of pages you need to tell a story that will hook people into your series? That's how I'd decide how long to make the prequel. The point of a free first taste is that you are confident it is so good that people will pay for more. So focus on making it that good.


Of course, but still? What's yours prequel vs book 1 book 2?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't write prequels, so, I can't say. Maybe study some prequels?


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

I think having prequels to your serial is an excellent idea. The more ways you can find ppl to get invested in your serial---or at least give it a try---the better. I personally will have two. One is a direct prequel of which my serial is a spinoff, but I need to put the current version through a rewrite before I start pushing it. My second prequel is just a book that focuses on part of what my serial is about. Maybe a better way to describe it is to call it a "companion book." It has good reviews and is novel-length, so I'm planning a major ad campaign for it in a few weeks, hoping it will drive more readers to my serial (which isn't completed yet).


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I have a bunch of perma-frees for various novel/novella/serial/short story series, and some work better than others. My main Tube Riders series does okay, but a couple of my niche market pen name series just sit there and do nothing. Can't get downloads, and when I can, can't get sell throughs. It really is case by case. In general I consider 5% to be good. I've heard of a couple of people around 10%, but most are in the 1-5% range. Still, it seems like the most viable tool out there at the moment.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Jess, I realize this thread has gone off into a direction that has nothing to do with serials, but did you change your mind about serials or are you definitely done with them?


Done with serials, but not done with series. I like the idea of writing in the same world, with the same characters, but each future book will be a standalone complete story. No more "part one" etc.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> Done with serials, but not done with series. I like the idea of writing in the same world, with the same characters, but each future book will be a standalone complete story. No more "part one" etc.


Good luck to you! 

~~~~

I'm exploring various lengths. This year, I've got my current serials; I've got a three-book novella-length series coming up; I've got a holiday stand-alone novel coming up, and I have a novel-length book one of a series coming up.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

So I have book 1 out, but I want to put out the book as a whole, not as series. I was think of making that book 1 perma free, but what if I released the whole book with book 1 within it as well. Or do I pretty much have to start with book 2 (for the whole book)?  Is it against TOS, how do I mention that "yeah, that perma free book is the first few chapters of this book." Any thoughts?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

DGS said:


> So I have book 1 out, but I want to put out the book as a whole, not as series. I was think of making that book 1 perma free, but what if I released the whole book with book 1 within it as well. Or do I pretty much have to start with book 2 (for the whole book)? Is it against TOS, how do I mention that "yeah, that perma free book is the first few chapters of this book." Any thoughts?


You're posts are very puzzling, but I think what you are suggesting is the James Patterson method of making the first HALF of the book free, and the whole book for pay. Technically, the T&C we agree to with Amazon say we will only release a full book . . . but what a "full book" means is up to interpretation: theirs. There have been some authors who do this technique, and as far as I know, Amazon did not ding them for violating T&C, but readers went bonkers with 1-star reviews on BOTH books. So be warned that can happen. If you're okay risking that, then clearly label the sample as BOOK TITLE FREE SAMPLE and in the blurb put "Read the first X chapter of Book absolutely free in an extended sample!" and have links at the back of the sample to the regular book.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You're posts are very puzzling, but I think what you are suggesting is the James Patterson method of making the first HALF of the book free, and the whole book for pay. Technically, the T&C we agree to with Amazon say we will only release a full book . . . but what a "full book" means is up to interpretation: theirs. There have been some authors who do this technique, and as far as I know, Amazon did not ding them for violating T&C, but readers went bonkers with 1-star reviews on BOTH books. So be warned that can happen. If you're okay risking that, then clearly label the sample as BOOK TITLE FREE SAMPLE and in the blurb put "Read the first X chapter of Book absolutely free in an extended sample!" and have links at the back of the sample to the regular book.


What I mean is I have 4 books in the series. 1st one is out. I want to make that one perma free, but then put the whole thing as one book. I want to know if it makes sense to put book 1 within that book or not? Or actually, maybe going wide is a much smarter play, so then it won't matter about KU and read throughs.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

DGS said:


> So I have book 1 out, but I want to put out the book as a whole, not as series. I was think of making that book 1 perma free, but what if I released the whole book with book 1 within it as well. Or do I pretty much have to start with book 2 (for the whole book)? Is it against TOS, how do I mention that "yeah, that perma free book is the first few chapters of this book." Any thoughts?


You could just make sure to label the books as part of a series, then label or at least note the full book is "the complete series" or "Omnibus Edition." Hugh Howey did this with Wool, I am pretty sure. His original Wool (part one) is permafree, the rest of the parts are for sale, then he packaged the whole story into the "Omnibus Edition", which does in fact contain the original permafree Wool #1.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You're posts are very puzzling, but I think what you are suggesting is the James Patterson method of making the first HALF of the book free, and the whole book for pay. Technically, the T&C we agree to with Amazon say we will only release a full book . . . but what a "full book" means is up to interpretation: theirs. There have been some authors who do this technique, and as far as I know, Amazon did not ding them for violating T&C, but readers went bonkers with 1-star reviews on BOTH books. So be warned that can happen. If you're okay risking that, then clearly label the sample as BOOK TITLE FREE SAMPLE and in the blurb put "Read the first X chapter of Book absolutely free in an extended sample!" and have links at the back of the sample to the regular book.


So how can anyone legally (per Amazon) publish serials if they are bound to only release a "full book" ? Could it not be argued that serials are just "parts" of a full story aka book?


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> So how can anyone legally (per Amazon) publish serials if they are bound to only release a "full book" ? Could it not be argued that serials are just "parts" of a full story aka book?


If you claim this then you weren't writing for a serial format, you were writing parts of a book and claiming it was a serial.
The serial series i'm writing is very much an episodic story, like a tv show or soap opera. If I combined them into a full novel without any heavy edits, it would become disjointed and hard to follow.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

DGS said:


> What I mean is I have 4 books in the series. 1st one is out. I want to make that one perma free, but then put the whole thing as one book. I want to know if it makes sense to put book 1 within that book or not? Or actually, maybe going wide is a much smarter play, so then it won't matter about KU and read throughs.


I think I would not put the permafree title into the omnibus with the other three books. You might get the "I'm be forced to pay for something that's free/that I've already read!!!" reaction, even if you charge for the four-book set exactly what you would've charged for a three-book set. After all, readers don't know that the $5.99 they're paying is really $5.99 for Book 2-4, with Book 1 being tossed in for free. It's just as easy to see it as $1.50 per book.

That's just my guess at the human psychology of it, though. Maybe some folks have already done it and have not gotten that reaction.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit about KU. If Books 2-4 are in KU, you could still collect them with a permafree Book 1 into a single omnibus. You just wouldn't be able to put that omnibus on sites other than Amazon.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> I think I would not put the permafree title into the omnibus with the other three books. You might get the "I'm be forced to pay for something that's free/that I've already read!!!" reaction, even if you charge for the four-book set exactly what you would've charged for a three-book set. After all, readers don't know that the $5.99 they're paying is really $5.99 for Book 2-4, with Book 1 being tossed in for free. It's just as easy to see it as $1.50 per book.


Hugh Howey did it with Wool. Not sure if anyone complained, but it is/was a best-seller.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

JalexM said:


> If you claim this then you weren't writing for a serial format, you were writing parts of a book and claiming it was a serial.
> The serial series i'm writing is very much an episodic story, like a tv show or soap opera. If I combined them into a full novel without any heavy edits, it would become disjointed and hard to follow.


This would be hard to prove, unless you had proof all of the "parts" were already written, then just released one at a time. And a disjointed story that doesn't flow well could also just be bad writing.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

All the bundles I see in romance include the free book. They are priced so that the bundle is still cheap compared to buying the other books.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Crystal_ said:


> All the bundles I see in romance include the free book. They are priced so that the bundle is still cheap compared to buying the other books.


This.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Ok I might be going into deep end here but stay with me. How's this - 1st book perma free. books 2-4 in KU. Boxset across all platforms.        compare with just going wide with everything, I'm trying to figure out how much KU will matter. If it's just 20% of readers or so, then maybe not going KU is better because you actually make money if books are shorter.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

DGS said:


> Ok I might be going into deep end here but stay with me. How's this - 1st book perma free. books 2-4 in KU. Boxset across all platforms. compare with just going wide with everything, I'm trying to figure out how much KU will matter. If it's just 20% of readers or so, then maybe not going KU is better because you actually make money if books are shorter.


Can't go wide with your boxset until you pull the books from KU...


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

DGS said:


> Ok I might be going into deep end here but stay with me. How's this - 1st book perma free. books 2-4 in KU. Boxset across all platforms. compare with just going wide with everything, I'm trying to figure out how much KU will matter. If it's just 20% of readers or so, then maybe not going KU is better because you actually make money if books are shorter.


No more than 10% of content in KU can be available outside of Amazon. If your 4-book box set contain >90% content NOT in KU (unlikely if books 2-3 are enrolled), then you're OK to go wide with it. The other problem with going wide with book 1 is any books given away outside of KU aren't leading to sales of other books. You're best off all in or all out. If in, take advantage of free days for book 1 and do a Countdown on at least the box set. If out, go permafree with book 1 and write a strong standalone or prequel to enroll in KU.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

JessHayek69 said:


> And a disjointed story that doesn't flow well could also just be bad writing.


No not really. I have experience writing episodic content(i.e. TV shows). I know the difference.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

JessHayek69 said:


> So how can anyone legally (per Amazon) publish serials if they are bound to only release a "full book" ? Could it not be argued that serials are just "parts" of a full story aka book?


I believe the comment was in response to the example of a writer giving away the first chapter or several chapters of a novel, and then requiring readers to make a purchase if they want to finish reading that book. That is against Amazon's TOS. Serials are a different thing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Can someone quote or link to the passage in the TOS that the partial book thing violates?


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

vlmain said:


> I believe the comment was in response to the example of a writer giving away the first chapter or several chapters of a novel, and then requiring readers to make a purchase if they want to finish reading that book. That is against Amazon's TOS. Serials are a different thing.


Would be interesting to see the actual Amazon policy and how they word it


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Monique said:


> Can someone quote or link to the passage in the TOS that the partial book thing violates?


I've never seen it specifically disallowed. The only thing I've ever been able to find in the TOS that even comes close is the section on Disappointing Content.

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=200952510#disappointing

I still think it's a cheap tactic. That's what samples and previews on your website are for.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> I've never seen it specifically disallowed. The only thing I've ever been able to find in the TOS that even comes close is the section on Disappointing Content.
> 
> https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=200952510#disappointing
> 
> I still think it's a cheap tactic. That's what samples and previews on your website are for.


I agree. I just don't think it's technically against the TOS.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Anything and everything can be against the TOS if Amazon says so. Also, that document HAS changed. Earlier versions defined what a whole work was considered to be and I distinctly remember it stating partial works of a larger work were not permitted (because I wanted to do the James Patterson style thing). 

So likes I said, you CAN do the 50% free and then have the full book for purchase. But you DO run the risk of customers complaining and Amazon deciding it's a poor customer experience. 

I used to keep every version of the changes, but now I just don't bother because the language now is that Amazon can do anything they want regarding what we publish and we can't say BOO about it.

Interestingly enough too now it looks like they also absolve all responsibility on their part if a third-party erroneously claims they have a copyright to your work and they wrongly withhold royalties. I have no idea when that was added in, but I don't remember that being there either.

And oh yeah, read section 7. Because we all break that just by discussing the terms in public without Amazon's approval.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

So short answer, it's not in the TOS.

I think it's bad form and could lead to a poor reader experience, but people keep saying it's against the TOS, but there's no evidence it is. "Anything can be against TOS" isn't particularly helpful. 

This is just one of those urban myths that is oft-repeated on the board even though there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence that it's true.

I'm pretty sure that's not what section 7 means.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

It used to be in there defining a book as a whole work and not a portion thereof. And the only reason I even remember that is because it was an idea I was going to co-opt back in 2012 when I was still writing different WIPS.  

I've ignored you constantly lately saying I'm leading people astray. I have never, ever posted on Kboards except in the very best of good faith.  Perhaps you should try that more and maybe answer more questions instead of just snarking all the time if you're so worried about what I post. 

It's NOT an urban myth. Amazon absolutely HAS taken down books in a variety of genres anytime it decides to. With no advance notification. There are tons of threads about that from over the years. I don't think it's wrong at all to warn a new author or just share the opinion that anything you do that's different than the norm could come back to bite you in the butt. It is a risk. I think you can take it, but don't expect to not get flak about it. 

And there used to be a ton of books that were rocking that 50% free thing pay to read the rest. And readers by and large got tired of it. 

Those of us who've been here like you and me KNOW Amazon kills flies with hammers. It really sucks for someone to get smashed and not even realize that could happen to them.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It used to be in there defining a book as a whole work and not a portion thereof. And the only reason I even remember that is because it was an idea I was going to co-opt back in 2012 when I was still writing different WIPS.


That's what I had remembered, too. Regardless of the change in TOS, it isn't something I would do. It just seems something that could result in angry readers. Even if you are careful to disclose that, people tend to either not pay attention or forget. I have seen a number of reviews from irritated readers over such things.

I don't know ... do the benefits outweigh the risk? Apparently, they do if Patterson continues to do it. I'm afraid my threshold for pain is too low for that sort of thing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It used to be in there defining a book as a whole work and not a portion thereof. And the only reason I even remember that is because it was an idea I was going to co-opt back in 2012 when I was still writing different WIPS.


It's possible it was there years ago, but it hasn't been there for ages. Or at least no one has been able to post a link to it.



> I've ignored you constantly lately saying I'm leading people astray. I have never, ever posted on Kboards except in the very best of good faith. Perhaps you should try that more and maybe answer more questions instead of just snarking all the time if you're so worried about what I post.


You've posted a lot of what I see as baloney lately, today especially. I think you mean well in your own way, but that doesn't mean it's not baloney.  I think my record of helping people on the board and answering questions here over the years stands for itself. I wouldn't have to snark if there weren't things that needed to be called out for being misleading.



> It's NOT an urban myth. Amazon absolutely HAS taken down books in a variety of genres anytime it decides to. With no advance notification. There are tons of threads about that from over the years. I don't think it's wrong at all to warn a new author or just share the opinion that anything you do that's different than the norm could come back to bite you in the butt. It is a risk. I think you can take it, but don't expect to not get flak about it.


It's not in the TOS. Amazon might send nastygrams about it, and I think it's a craptastic practice, but the claims that it's against TOS are just not accurate. It's perfectly fine to state what you have above. Just don't say it's against the TOS because there's no written proof that's true. Just be accurate. You can be both helpful and accurate.



> Those of us who've been here like you and me KNOW Amazon kills flies with hammers. It really sucks for someone to get smashed and not even realize that could happen to them.


I don't disagree. Warn newbs about what might happen, just don't cite an invisible TOS. That's all.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

It absolutely USED to be in the TOS. Sorry it's not there this second, but the thing changed July 1.. Go right ahead and call me posting baloney, I have yet to see you post anything helpful in 6 months+ 

You and I will never get along. I don't like a single solitary post you have written to me. I think it's best we just start ignoring one another, either formally or just with our own self-control. Good luck to you, Monique.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It absolutely USED to be in the TOS. Sorry it's not there this second, but the thing changed July 1.. Go right ahead and call me posting baloney, I have yet to see you post anything helpful in 6 months+
> 
> You and I will never get along. I don't like a single solitary post you have written to me. I think it's best we just start ignoring one another, either formally or just with our own self-control. Good luck to you, Monique.


It hasn't been in the TOS for quite some time as this exact subject has come up before. Bottom line is that it does not appear to be in it now. It's no big deal. Just warn people with what Amazon might do without including the erroneous info.

Are you calling me not helpful? Cause I think you're calling me unhelpful. 

We certainly don't see eye to eye. Feel free to ignore me. I'm content to keep responding to whatever I feels needs to be responded to. *shrug*

Good luck to you, too.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Group hug?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Boyd said:


> Better yet, I can line up shots of 1800 reposado


Make it Glenlivet and we've got a deal.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Monique said:


>


I am literally dying from the cuteness. The cuteness is killing me.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

So much passion, you two should collaborate on a book. 



other news:

Thanks for mentioning the box can't go wide and KU rules, I actually thought that too but zon didn't catch me yet so I thought maybe something changed.

Saul, "If out, go permafree with book 1 and write a strong standalone or prequel to enroll in KU."  Why even do this then if you have the perma free? If you mean to take advantage of KU readers, yeah, I have other books available in KU. 

I've got zon to take me out of KU for the 1st in the series... feels strange to leave KU but that's the game now it seems. Thanks to all for the help!


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Boyd said:


> Better yet, I can line up shots of 1800 reposado


I can be there in like 6 hours.

Wait - maybe 8 hours. I have to go through Amsterdam.

Make it more like 48 hours.

A couple of weeks, max.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> Different readers like different things. A properly written serial is a more than just a book that has been chopped up into pieces, and there are people who enjoy the format.


Not sure I fully agree with that. I hear people saying that a lot but yet reviews tell the truth. People generally don't like paying $3.99 only to get to the end and find that the story is not complete. It's leaving you hanging there ( maybe they get together, maybe they don't ) Most folks know its a money grab. Reviews are the tell tell sign of what people enjoy and the biggest complaint on serials is people saying. This was basically a story stopping without wrapping it up ( i.e they got together, they went their sepearte ways )


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## CherieMarks (Oct 10, 2011)

RKC said:


> My most popular series is a serial. I write it just like its a TV show, with each episode doing something for the wider story, and each season standing alone with an arc of its own.


This is my next kind of project. I started the first episode, but had to set it aside to focus on other deadlines, but I think it's a great idea. I plan to release the first three episodes together. Then, one at a time after that in as little time period between as I can manage (once a month is the plan now).


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Violet Haze said:


> I had my serials in KU once after it came out and my sales tanked. It was okay for first month, but after that, I was making just as little as before I put them in, they were NO longer wide, and the first book wasn't free to encourage people to give it a try that weren't in KU.
> 
> They only lasted 90 days, and I will say, my serials with a perma-free do well all throughout every sales channel they are on. For me, it's worth it.


Strange. This persons approach was quite the opposite

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,222245.0.html

They have done better.

Do you think its a genre problem or serial problem? Meaning books that are serial ( broken up ) do better outside of KU, books that are standalone but are in a series ( standalone) do better inside KU?


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

kalel said:


> Not sure I fully agree with that. I hear people saying that a lot but yet reviews tell the truth. People generally don't like paying $3.99 only to get to the end and find that the story is not complete. It's leaving you hanging there ( maybe they get together, maybe they don't ) Most folks know its a money grab. Reviews are the tell tell sign of what people enjoy and the biggest complaint on serials is people saying. This was basically a story stopping without wrapping it up ( i.e they got together, they went their sepearte ways )


I just did a survey among my readers. When I asked which format they prefer to read, do you know what the overwhelming winner was? Serials. Reviews are not always indicative of all readers. Just because a few loud reviewers will stomp their feet about serials doesn't mean that there aren't people who like the format.

Also most serials don't cost $3.99. The vast majority of serial writers I know price their episodes low in the beginning and then price higher when a compilation is available.


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I should actually edit that reply  I wasn't aware for a long time that my books were adult dungeoned...and that was why they were doing so poorly in general, but especially in KU since people weren't able to find me. I've recently put all my books back in KU to give it a second shot (after a lot of convincing myself to do it), and so far, I am finding it worth it.



kalel said:


> Strange. This persons approach was quite the opposite
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,222245.0.html
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2015)

kalel said:


> Not sure I fully agree with that. I hear people saying that a lot but yet reviews tell the truth. People generally don't like paying $3.99 only to get to the end and find that the story is not complete. It's leaving you hanging there ( maybe they get together, maybe they don't ) Most folks know its a money grab. Reviews are the tell tell sign of what people enjoy and the biggest complaint on serials is people saying. This was basically a story stopping without wrapping it up ( i.e they got together, they went their sepearte ways )


I suspect that is the biggest complaint on stories that aren't serials but are just chopped up.

Seriously, arguing that people don't like serials is like arguing people don't like television shows because "they are just movies chopped up into weekly installments."

I would say reviews that "complain" on a serial that it is a serial fall into two types: the book really IS a poorly written money grab of a novel just broken up into parts or the reader just one-clicked something that was on sale and didn't read the description (akin to people who complain about a short story only being 5000 words despite the description saying "this is a short story of 5,000 words".


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I suspect that is the biggest complaint on stories that aren't serials but are just chopped up.
> 
> *Seriously, arguing that people don't like serials is like arguing people don't like television shows because "they are just movies chopped up into weekly installments."
> *
> I would say reviews that "complain" on a serial that it is a serial fall into two types: the book really IS a poorly written money grab of a novel just broken up into parts or the reader just one-clicked something that was on sale and didn't read the description (akin to people who complain about a short story only being 5000 words despite the description saying "this is a short story of 5,000 words".


Excellent point! With my serial I explained that it wouldn't work as a novel. It's like a writer deciding to work on a TV show or movie. Two different types of stories.

I'm writing a police-procedural, one inspired by shows like Law & Order and Person of Interest, so the novel format won't work for my story. But I make sure that each installment can stand alone, while tying into a larger plot.

It has nothing to do with money for some writers.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Serials are like TV. You have the range of Law and Order to Breaking Bad, the most procedural to the most serialized.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Crystal_ said:


> Right? Makes my AP so much worse. Everytime I visit the boards, I'm like OOH someone doing well wide, better go wide. Someone doing well in KU, better KU. Repeat for every decision I have to make.


But, that's how this self-publishing thing works. Once you accept that not everything will work for every author, or even every book, you can stop looking for the "one true way" and start drilling down and finding what works in general.

If there was a magic formula, a one-size-fits-all checklist of what to do, we'd all be rich. Or maybe not. Maybe things would be worse, because readers are different and they want different things (but not too different) and if all they got was cookie cutter books, they'd revolt.

Okay, on to the prequel thing. A prequel is about something that happened before the main story. It's a lead-in, an explanation of events, a tidbit about a character, etc. It must be a story in itself. The first couple of chapters of a book is not a prequel.

And, the free thing. No, free doesn't work. Not like it used to, when you could put any old thing up, make it free and get tens of thousands of downloads. Readers are over-stuffed and don't download like that anymore.

But, free used wisely, as a funnel or special intro price, can still work well. I've seen too many authors explaining their system and giving the numbers to believe otherwise. If there isn't a good buy-through rate, then maybe there's something wrong elsewhere: maybe the genre isn't ready for these kinds of tactics, maybe the series isn't up to par, maybe the topic is dated, or off-trope, maybe the Book Sales Fairy is busy elsewhere. Each author is going to have to look at their work and see if they can figure out why they don't get people on to the next books.

And, really, that's the way it is for everything in this gig: try different things, see what works, ignore the rest. Be ready to jump onto a different path, because the one thing we can count on as indies is that everything changes.

I've actually been working on my serial this morning as I caught up on this thread. I'm getting a little excited about it, after reading about success from folks like Boyd (save me a couple of shots, will ya?).


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

One more thing:  Amazon may have changed their TOS, but I think it's still in Smashwords' that you can't publish partial books, that is, a "preview" of a book. I think they look at serials as being a full story, though.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> One more thing: Amazon may have changed their TOS, but I think it's still in Smashwords' that you can't publish partial books, that is, a "preview" of a book. I think they look at serials as being a full story, though.


They do look at serials as being a full story. If not, then they overlooked my serial.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Are the majority of serial writers putting their novellas wide with a permafree? I think that's what you do right Boyd?

I'm thinking of putting my novels in select, and my novellas wide and seeing what happens.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> I'm all in. Everything is in Select. I did just do a free run on twb1 and loving the effect it's having. Since its too shory for bookbub i used freebooksy, book sends and others. I was able to get into the top 50 free this past weekend. Ymmv of course


Ah I see, interesting, thanks.

Have you ever been tempted to up your prices to $2.99? I guess not as the 0.99 price point is working so well for you!


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2015)

B. Yard said:


> Are the majority of serial writers putting their novellas wide with a permafree?


Nope. I'm a Select fan. My previous novellas always got both sales and borrows. My upcoming novellas will all be in Select.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> I'm all in. Everything is in Select. I did just do a free run on twb1 and loving the effect it's having. Since its too shory for bookbub i used freebooksy, book sends and others. I was able to get into the top 50 free this past weekend. Ymmv of course


Congratulations!  I always love it when authors have awesome success without a Bookbub ad.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Nope. I'm a Select fan. My previous novellas always got both sales and borrows. My upcoming novellas will all be in Select.


Thanks Jolie, good to know. Do you mind me asking your rough word counts and pricing?

My 50,000 odd books I am planning to price at $2.99 with the first being 0.99.

I have no idea what to price the 20,000 odd word novella's I want to do alongside though! 0.99 I guess following Boyd's shining example.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> I've thought about it. Before I release the omnibus stuff, I have to finish book 6. Then my plan is to bump up the price on book 3 and book six to 2.99 as they are both significantly longer than 1,2,4,5. Not novel range, but lots of good stuff I hope?!
> 
> Right now I got writing a side story to my main series and so far there is no end in sight. Who knows, this might be my big white whale because I'm over 60k words into it in the past week and I 'think' I'm at the 2/3 mark. I don't know for sure. Short story writer is writing a novel now. I may be out of my element but if I finish up close to the 100k mark, I'm going to slap 4.99 on this baby and ride it into the sunset... I hope... unless it eats me. Then, who knows
> 
> Jolie, bookbub turned me down, so I used freebooksy and booksends. Sorry for the confusion earlier, I was either drinking my lunch or typing on my cell phone


Sounds like a great strategy Boyd, thanks for sharing. I'll think about this w with what I'm planning (see above!)


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2015)

B. Yard said:


> Thanks Jolie, good to know. Do you mind me asking your rough word counts and pricing?
> 
> My 50,000 odd books I am planning to price at $2.99 with the first being 0.99.
> 
> I have no idea what to price the 20,000 odd word novella's I want to do alongside though! 0.99 I guess following Boyd's shining example.


My novella books will be 25,000 to 30,000 words each.

They will all be in Select.

The first novella will be 99 cents. After the 90 days, I'll go through D2D, make it free everywhere, and then request permafree on Amazon.
(That's what I did with my zombie series, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. I no longer publish my zombie series, and I was late in publishing book three, which killed the momentum. But I still make sales every week on book 2, which was published in August of last year and book 3, which was published in May of this year.)

All the other novellas will be $2.99. I never ran into an issue with the $2.99 price point for my zombie novellas. Some people complained that some of the books were too short. (Book two and book three are both less than 25,000 words.) But no one ever went on a rampage about the price of the books. Some people just wished the books were longer.

So that's it!  I'm looking forward to publishing my novellas.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> Right now I got writing a side story to my main series and so far there is no end in sight. Who knows, this might be my big white whale because I'm over 60k words into it in the past week and I 'think' I'm at the 2/3 mark. I don't know for sure. Short story writer is writing a novel now. I may be out of my element but if I finish up close to the 100k mark, I'm going to slap 4.99 on this baby and ride it into the sunset... I hope... unless it eats me. Then, who knows


I may try writing a novel series in 2016, but it won't be until after I'm done with my novella series. 

I'm doing this fiction writing thing for life. So I'm enjoying the journey.

We'll see what the future holds.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

B. Yard said:


> Are the majority of serial writers putting their novellas wide with a permafree? I think that's what you do right Boyd?
> 
> I'm thinking of putting my novels in select, and my novellas wide and seeing what happens.


Now that I have the All Purpose Cultural Template Cover, I'm going wide with weekly singles. No Select here because I want to still be doing this in five years.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> My novella books will be 25,000 to 30,000 words each.
> 
> They will all be in Select.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jolie, good to know.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Vaalingrade said:


> Now that I have the All Purpose Cultural Template Cover, I'm going wide with weekly singles. No Select here because I want to still be doing this in five years.


Fair enough, I can see the attraction of going wide, I'm just not sure the other sites are good enough.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> They weren't for me, when you figure out the time it takes to get traction, the learning curve to upload etc. You can use an aggregator (which I did) which helps... but you make even less. I still think amazon is the 800lb gorilla. I hear apple is catching up fast from friends who are wide though so ymmv


Yeah, I think Apple and Google will be decent players at some stage, but right now I'm going to concentrate on building a back list in select.

If I ever chose to switch, dumping a larger catalogue wide could get some visibility more quickly anyway.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Boyd said:


> They weren't for me, when you figure out the time it takes to get traction, the learning curve to upload etc. You can use an aggregator (which I did) which helps... but you make even less. I still think amazon is the 800lb gorilla. I hear apple is catching up fast from friends who are wide though so ymmv


I tried going wide with my serial. Got a bunch of downloads on the first episode and one person bought all the first season episodes. But no box sets have moved. I'm putting it all back in Select.

As much as I hate exclusivity, I'm sorry but the other vendors really need to step up their game. Improve discoverability, improve the platforms, offer promotions to more indies than just the ones who have interviewed you on their podcasts. Yeah, the other vendors may give you a higher royalty on books under $2.99, but 80% of $0 is still $0.


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## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

Everyone talks about how much bigger Amazon is, and that's true. But remember, your sales on other platforms don't have to come close to your sales on Amazon. They just have to come close to your borrows.

Some things to think about if you are in this as a business:

Being on multiple stores has some advantages, even if the sales are not there at first. 
It is much easier to get promos. Many promo sites like to feature books that are on as many channels as possible. 
You can't be a NYT or USA Today bestseller if you are exclusive to Amazon. Maybe you're not big enough to worry about that right now, but you can't tell me you don't want to be at that level eventually. And you can make whatever sour grapes remark you want about how the lists and titles don't matter to you, but the bottom line is that they matter to readers. Books with those letters get more clicks than the same books without. 
Amazon has a habit of jerking KU members around. What if the next change tanks your sales? Yes, you could always just move over your back catalogue then. But do you really want to be doing that when there are thousands of authors jumping ship at the same time? Or would it be easier to put in the time it takes to gain ground on the other stores now? What if it's not easy to get on some of those stores? Remember when Google Play stopped taking new authors?

I'm not saying there is one right answer. I've tried both. I am even thinking about launching a new pen name next year and going all in with KU, because I think it might be the right choice for that genre, length and release schedule. I'm just saying these are some of the things I think about when making the decision.


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## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

Boyd said:


> I dunno- KU pays 2/3 of my income and sales $$ pays 1/3. I'm a guy who writes 20-30k novellas at .99 so maybe my model is flawed... but I did try going wide.
> 
> First thing that happened? It took me over a week and a half to reformat and re-upload to aggregators and direct to vendors who weren't. In the meantime, my rankings on amazon tanked. Like... I went down 90% as soon as I lost that visibility. I went from making a living wage to having to flip burgers. Sounds fun right? I gave it 7 months and never got the traction needed...
> 
> ...


Sounds like you did exactly the right thing for your situation. For some people KU makes the most sense. And there are benefits to going that route. Not the least of which is the HUGE rankings boost amazon gives to KU members. I've looked at my sales numbers next to a friend's who is all-in KU. I didn't do any exhaustive research, but it seemed like we had books that hovered around the same ranks, even though the one in KU was bringing in about 1/2-3/4 as much money. So visibility and favorable algorithms shouldn't be underestimated.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2015)

Voelker58 said:


> You can't be a NYT or USA Today bestseller if you are exclusive to Amazon. Maybe you're not big enough to worry about that right now, but you can't tell me you don't want to be at that level eventually. And you can make whatever sour grapes remark you want about how the lists and titles don't matter to you, but the bottom line is that they matter to readers. Books with those letters get more clicks than the same books without.


Oh, believe me, I'm not about to say that I don't care about those labels. You won't get that line from me. In fact, the ONLY reason I'll ever go wide (other than to get a permafree on Amazon) is to try and get the NYT and USA Today bestseller labels. Yeah, that's on my Bucket List for a few years down the road, for sure.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

A couple other things that have me starting off with Amazon exclusively is that I've watched several indies get signed on to Amazon imprints, and I've seen several indies get their series added to Kindle Worlds. I haven't done a ton of research, but my guess is most of them started off in Amazon exclusively and got contacted by Amazon to go those routes. Two of the series I'm working on right now would fit right in with KW's offerings, and I've heard a lot of good things about Amazon's imprints. I suspect being part of the Amazon farm team rather than being in wide release stands a better likelihood of going in those two directions.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Going along with that, I've also seen a lot of indies who have found success going wide have also gone wide after finding success through Select. And it makes sense. If you're already popular on Amazon and then decide to go to the other vendors, I'd imagine your chances of having a pretty good buzz or of getting contacted by reps from the other sites are much higher than if you go wide as a prawn.


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