# My friend is Illiterate--- Advice?



## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

I have a friend that is illiterate. Both of his parents are also illiterate and so is his older sister (but oddly enough not his brother) It is someone very close to me and it bothers me very much that he never learned to read or spell. 

He can text message and he can figure things/words out sometimes(he has a cheat sheet with basic words on it).  But most of the time everything is misspelled and wrong. 
I have complete compassion for anyone with this problem and I would gladly take any amount of time to help someone that asked or needed it. 

The part the bothers me with him is that he is almost proud of not being able to read,write,spell etc. His family is very set in their ways and feel they are missing out on nothing by being illiterate. He will say all the time that him and his sister can't spell anything. He says that they need help in banks, post offices etc. If you are with him he will always ask how to spell certain words and if you try to help him rather than just TELL him the spelling he says "I don't want to learn I just want you to tell me" 

It's not that I don't have sympathy and compassion for him because I do. But I promise you they are in an odd way proud of their setback.
I am by far not the best speller or grammar police but he is 28 and his sister is 32 and they both could barely finish a children's book without alot of assistance. 

But they don't want assistance and it is not a prideful issue because they gladly ask to spell several words and they will ask you to read them letters,bills,menus etc. Its the point they don't want to actually learn to read. I have said several times that if he wanted me to help him 'learn' I'd be happy to help and/or find someone ALOT better than me because I am by no means an appropriate English teacher but I could help him and he said "why would I learn when I'm always with someone that will tell me how to spell or read it to me" 

It's that exact mentality that I just can't get my head around! At first I thought he made light of his problem out of embarrassment or pride. But after several conversations about it I know for certain that him and his sister both just have absolutely no interest or want to learn. It boggles my mind.  I don't know if I am posting to vent or to ask for advice or just your general thoughts. 

It seriously does bother me. I'm with this friend alot of the time because he works for my dad (as do I) and my dad's office is connected to their main house. BTW his part of the office work does not involve reading/spelling. At my parents house and when we meet casually he will see me reading my kindle often and he always says "I don't understand what would possess you to want to sit and read for hours on end, it makes no sense" 

I don't EVER mind helping or giving him the spelling of a word, but I feel as if when I just tell him the spelling or meaning of a word or If I read something aloud to him is it really helping him? Especially when I know he will not and does not want to take the time or effort to learn. He says my whole family got by just fine so I don't need to learn just TELL ME! 

I could go on all day with the countless ways it frustrates me, and please don't find me in-compassionate or if I sound degrading. I promise I do not try to ever publically put him down and I don't try to push education on him. When he brings it up I just merely try to show him how much better it would be if he took the time to learn. Learning isn't a bad thing. 

Obviously at the end of the day it isn't really my problem and if it doesn't bother him than why do I care? But I do care and for me I would feel like I suffered tremendously if I couldn't read, I'd just love to see him learn on his own, even if only an elementary school level would benefit him. 

Thank you for taking the time and reading all of this, I am just a concerned friend and I wouldn't feel right talking to my other friends about it in case it got back to him. I don't want him to think that I look down on him or his family because I don't. I would never think down on someone for that problem I just wish they/he would try to rise above it. Any comments/suggestions I am open to!


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

I went back and reread my entire post, I apologize for it being *SO* long. Thanks for bearing with me if you got through the whole thing and still found time to comment!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

You know, we joke here a lot about being enablers, but this is a classic case. He asks you to spell a word for him or read something or him and you do. Your friend's problem (mind you, I am NOT Dr. Phil) is that "it's working for him". Why SHOULD he bother to learn if he _can_ always find someone to help him out? There isn't much you can do except stop enabling. If he asks about a word, tell him you're happy to help him get into a literacy program (do some research first and have a place in mind that you can talk about every time he brings it up) but that you won't spell or read for him any more.

This will work best if you can get the rest of his 'enablers' to stop as well. Of course, it sounds like his family isn't going to be supportive, so you may be fighting an uphill battle no matter how many other folks are willing to encourage him. At first, at the least, he'll just find someone else, and it is very likely to jeopardize your friendship because he's possibly going to be embarrassed, since he may then have to ask a stranger, and very likely angry with you and think you're judging him and all that negative stuff. Still, if you can stick through it, you might eventually be able to get him to admit that he should learn and let you help him figure out how. But, he's got to want to.

I feel your frustration. . . .but you can't control what he does, only what you do and how you interact with him.

When he asks why you read books/kindle. . .you could have a particularly rich story available to flip to and read to him out loud. . .something that gets you into the story right away, or has particularly beautiful language. Read until he's hooked and then stop. Keep picking different passages from different works and stop at a crucial part . . . .maybe he'll get the message that his learning to read means he can find out what happens next. 

Again, I'm NOT Dr. Phil. . .heck, I never even took a psych course in college. . . so I could be totally blowing smoke. . . .


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Wow, that's a difficult situation.

However, you can't make someone change, he or she has to want to change.  And if he or she thinks their life is fine as is, there's not much incentive to change.

What are his interests?  Perhaps if you found a book about whatever interested him, you could make him understand why you enjoy reading?

I have to say that I don't think not helping him is going to change anything other than eliminating you as a positive influence (because you're a reader); there will always be someone helping him and his sister.    I do think that reading to him, as Ann says, is a great idea.

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'll add here that, according to a NY Times article from 2007, people with poor reading skills tend to not live as long. The article reads in part:



> But, writing in the July 23 Archives of Internal Medicine, researchers say that one particular characteristic of a poor education, low reading skills, may alone account for much of the problem. The study was led by Dr. David W. Baker of the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University.
> 
> The researchers based their findings on a study of 3,260 Medicare patients over more than five years.
> 
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/health/31cons.html?_r=1

Betsy


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

Ann, your advice sounds really good.  Personally, I'm glad you're not Dr. Phil.  LOL.

koolmnbv, some people are very happy living in their own little worlds.  Some people do not possess an imagination.  Your story is frustrating on many levels.  Your reaction to this family is appropriate in my opinion.  This young man is 28.  Very young.  It is so aggrevating to me that he made it through some schooling without learning to read.  Even if he only went to the 3rd or 4th grade he should have been able to pick up something.  I'm not criticizing the teachers.  I know they are overworked.  But I am saying that somewhere along the line the ball gets dropped on some children.  

I think Ann is correct.  You can stop being an enabler.  You can set a good example by being a reader and showing how much you enjoy it.  And you can always point your friend and his sister in the right direction.  Your friend is illiterate, but it doesn't sound like he's stupid.  He has found a way to survive and perhaps you can be the person to show him there are better ways to survive in 2009.  
Good luck and keep up updated.
deb


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

With all due respect, it sounds like he needs a shrink, not an English teacher.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

There could also be an issue with learning disabilities, such as dislexia.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I've known several folks who learned to read well later than the usual age.  (How's that for politically correct?  Older than the traditional aged first grader? )  In all cases they had some reading disability, either dyslexia or something related or eye issues that didn't get diagnosed early enough.  In some cases teachers noticed a problem, in some cases parents, and in some cases neither until HS or college.  

I also worked one time at a day care center.  (If you knew me well, you'd know how weird that sounds.)  I was more or less the office manager and one of the caregivers who was there when I started couldn't read.  She was smart though, she'd use colors and shapes to figure stuff out.  Of course she couldn't do story time, but she knew her limitations and never gave any medicines or anything.  The kids loved her 'cause she'd get down on the floor and play with them rather than just standing and watching.

She was also The Hardest Worker by far. . . .many of the others felt they were too good to clean up the bathrooms if a toddler had an accident or a kid got sick.

Anyway, when the management above me found out she couldn't read, they were going to fire her.  I raised a stink. . . .instead, they enrolled her in an adult literacy program.  She got to learn to read -- which she wanted to do but didn't know how to -- and she got to keep her job as long as she stayed in the program.  Win-win for everyone.


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## Tippy (Dec 8, 2008)

My experience is very limited.  The long and short of it was a 30 something man, through his wife and his AA sponsor, went into a literacy program and learned to read.  I'll never forget the quiet pride in his eyes when he announced he could read.  He was a good worker and, because he could read, was promoted at his job. 

koolmnbv, you are a good person and I totally understand your frustration.  Your friend seems to have some desire to learn.  Would the brother that can read and write be someone that can encourage your friend to go to a literacy program?  

It is difficult to discontinue enabling, but somewhere, sometime, somehow your friend has to want to change so badly that he will do whatever it takes.  It is sometimes a fine line between being helpful and being enabling.  However, you must also protect yourself -- it can become too time consuming and emotionally draining and frustrating for you.  Been there done that.  Won't do it again.

You don't have the power to make people want to change.  If he doesn't want to change, it is not personal towards you.  He simply doesn't want to change. 

Blessings to you.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

I have little advice to offer beyond echoing that your friend would have to WANT to learn. As for what to do to bring that about, I think that if you simply stop helping him, other will just step in. And it may very well damage your friendship beyond repair.

I like the idea of reading him parts of stories and making him wonder about the rest. Or perhaps there is some other hobby (or a new topic that you can get him interested in) that entails looking up information. Even if you can get him to want to look up something on the web rather than in a book, that would be some progress.

I'm guessing that he is not married and has no kids. If he wants kids someday, would he want them to be able to read? The answer to that might tell you whether he thinks that literacy as a concept is unimportant or whether he just thinks it's of no interest to _him_. That in turn might help you figure out an "angle of attack". Even if it's just telling him that kids learn to read primarily from their parents, so if he ever wants the chain to end, _someone_ has to be first.

If you're friends, he's probably a caring person who would do things to help his friends. Can you bring about a scenario (with scheming and a little manipulation if necessary  ) in which he finds himself needing to help someone else but can't because it would require reading? (In a made-for-tv movie this would be like having a family member come down with some rare disease and having to research a cure  -- but I'm thinking of something much less dramatic, of course.)

And if all else fails.... he's made it this far, he has a job, and friends, and only a few hundred years ago he would have been in the majority. We're lucky that we live _today_ in a time and place of mandatory schooling and near-universal literacy, but for most of the time since writing was invented, the vast majority of humans couldn't read (and in some parts of the world that's still true). So, sad as it seems to us, literacy isn't a requirement to leading a fulfilling life... small consolation in this case, I know, but if he's truly _happy_ without books, in the end you may just have to let him be.


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## Tip10 (Apr 16, 2009)

Unfortunately about all you can do is continue providing the support you have and continue to point out that having to rely on others to read/write/spell for him is not going to be sufficient to continue to function in today's world.

You can continue to point out the kinds of things some of the others brought up and also point out that, unfortunately in today's economy no job is really truly safe and that the ability to read and fill out applications is an absolute must in order to get anything other than perhaps the most menial manual labor position. In addition, many companies now include some kind of reading/written evaluation as part of the interview process so just relying on somebody else to assist with the application won't cut it.

Anecdotal search for instances where people have been purposely mislead might provide further illustrations of the dangers of relying on others to read and/or interpret for you.

The comments regarding learning disabilities may be spot on. Unfortunately many many LD's still sneak through the cracks and go undiagnosed. You very well may be facing some here but only evaluation by experts int he field can determine that.

This is likely a problem that you are simply not going to be able to solve -- BUT there are a number of things you can do -- first off is continue as you have being supportive of your friend -- don't worry about being an "enabler" -- focus more on the role of advocate. Use what you have (i.e. the ability to read and access to resources such as the internet) to collect as much data as you can on the programs available to assist with adult illiteracy -- become an expert on what's out there. Unfortunately, as others have said, until *they* want to change you cannot make them, but you can prepare yourself so if there is "any crack in the armor" or any opportunity to step forward with assistance you are well prepared and informed. In the meantime, use your love of reading to try and illustrate the world your friend has been closed off from. The subtle hints of "I read an article about ..." in a conversation, or "there's a really good book by soandso that I read" about whatever might be of interest to them.Try and help them understand just exactly how ingrained reading is in today's society and how much they may be missing and how vulnerable they may be by not having at least rudimentary reading skills.

Frustrating -- I'm sure it is. Can you help your friend -- maybe, maybe not -- will what you learn and how you prepare help YOU out down the line -- most assuredly.

The world needs more people like you!


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## Cowgirl (Nov 1, 2008)

This story is beyond sad to me.  I think of all the educational opportunities that are available to everybody in this country... and then about children in less fortunate countries who walk in their bare feet for miles just to go to school to learn to read.  I don't know how anybody could be proud of not being able to read unless they couldn't because of a disabilityor lack of opportunity.


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

I'd continue to tell him how to spell words when he asks. He will learn how to spell that word once he writes it correctly enough times, it will just happen. You can't make another person sit down and learn to read if he doesn't want to. If heartfelt discussion hasn't worked I'd left it go for now and still answer his questions. Refusing to help him spell when he asks will just generate resentment.


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## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

drenee said:


> Ann, your advice sounds really good. Personally, I'm glad you're not Dr. Phil. LOL.
> 
> koolmnbv, some people are very happy living in their own little worlds. Some people do not possess an imagination. Your story is frustrating on many levels. Your reaction to this family is appropriate in my opinion. This young man is 28. Very young. It is so aggrevating to me that he made it through some schooling without learning to read. Even if he only went to the 3rd or 4th grade he should have been able to pick up something. I'm not criticizing the teachers. I know they are overworked. But I am saying that somewhere along the line the ball gets dropped on some children.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was wondering....I am a teacher, where did he go to school, that they let him slip thru the cracks?


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

Meredith, that is an issue that bothers me greatly.  I'm really not trying to pick on teachers, because personally I could never do the job.  My sister, unfortunately, is one of those children that fell through the cracks.  She is handicapped and was going to school right about the time of inclusion.  She often missed many days of school each year because of hospital stays, pneumonia, and various other ailments.  She did have a homebound teacher on those occasions.  One or two times a week for a couple of hours.  Somehow she made it all the way through school and graduated.  But she did not make it through on grades or test scores.  She was simply moved through the system.  

Again, I understand the school systems cannot help everyone.  For years I volunteered at whatever local school I was living near.  Unfortunately, the unions have started opposing volunteers.  Their rationale is that if there is something for a volunteer to do then that should be a paying position, posted and filled.  Very aggravating.  

Sorry I got off topic.  
deb


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## cat616 (Nov 4, 2008)

If your friend does not want to know, you will never change his mind.  His problem lies with his family and their attitude toward literacy and not your inability to convince him to learn.

I do not think you are enabling him.  If you do not mind helping him with spelling and reading letters etc then you should.

This is just one of those sad examples of "each to his own".  Try to remind yourself that he is very happy with his life and his inabilities.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

ouch....I just don't understand being proud of it. I have a brother-in-law who is proud that he has never read a book. He told his young children that he didn't think reading was useful and proud that he didn't. I can't believe he said that to them! He can read if he wants to of course. 

He I think is mainly lazy and being "proud" of it is a way to feel good about yourself when you shouldn't


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Base don the story told above, I doubt that there is a problem with learning disabilities. Only one person in the family is literate. I think if there was a learning disability involved the family would happily use that excuse.

I have eight learning disabilities and know how easy it is for the school system to write a child off. My Mother was a pit bull and made sure that the school system did not screw me over. But she had to fight for everything that I was given. She went on to be an advocate for the learning disabled in order to teach parents how to advocate for their kids. The school system has an incentive to not provide services to kids and parents have to be tenacious in their battle to get their kids the help and support they deserve.

That said, the dyslexia has to be really severe to prevent someone from learning to read. My younger brother was not able to read until second or third grade because of his dyslexia. He graduated with an English Lit degree. It was not easy but he did it. With proper help you can learn to compensate. If you cannot, and that is unfortunately a possibility, there are books on tapes and other ways to "read".

It sounds to me like this is a family that is passing down bad habits. The parents don't read, so they never read to their kids. The kids mimicked their parents behavior. How they got through school baffles me. 

Personally, I would stop reading to him. I do think that  you are enabling bad behavior. Yes, there are other people who are enabling him as well but that does not mean that you continue to do so. By reading to him, you are saying that his decision is fine and he can get buy without reading. He should learn enough to be able to live his day to day life without help. He might not ever read for pleasure but he should be able to read his own bank statement.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

koolmnbv said:


> I have a friend that is illiterate. Both of his parents are also illiterate and so is his older sister (but oddly enough not his brother) It is someone very close to me and it bothers me very much that he never learned to read or spell.


Your whole post read like a horror story to me--as if someone actually wished to be crippled to the point of helplessness. Really disturbing.

CK

Edited to note (since advice was requested) that you can't help someone like that. Change is up to them.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

The "pride" thing may be a defense mechanism, a way to feel better about something he would otherwise feel bad about. That doesn't make it any easier, necessarily, as our minds are very good at self-deception.

As others have pointed out, it could be some physical disability (e.g. dyslexia) that might require trained assistance to overcome. If he could be convinced to have some specialist in these matters test him for any such disabilities and is found, in fact, to have any, then perhaps he could move his excuse from pride to that disability, and then be willing to work to overcome it.

If, on the other hand, it is purely stubborn refusal to learn, all I can suggest is to tempt him into wanting to learn by continually displaying subtle indications of the pleasure you get from reading. You can lead this horse to the proverbial water, but realize you can't force him to drink until he decides he's thirsty.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

ProfCrash said:


> there are books on tapes and other ways to "read".


This would be another way to find out whether it's just the _reading_ he's not interested in or the entire idea of storytelling and imagination and learning. If he's bored by the idea of books on tape, then it's not just an inability to read but a larger issue.



ProfCrash said:


> He might not ever read for pleasure but he should be able to read his own bank statement.


And someday, years from now, his immediate family may not be around anymore, and if he doesn't want to be dependent on strangers (not all of them well-meaning ones) for decisions about his healthcare and his finances and such, it would be a good thing to be at least minimally self-sufficient.


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## kari (Feb 15, 2009)

I haven't read through all of this thread yet.  I'm so totally floored by the situation I had to stop and ask this.  Someone mentioned how he made it through school.  How much (if any) schooling has he actually had?  If he can only read a children's book, I'm guessing not much -- and if you tell me he actually finished high school, I'm going to go ahead and vomit now.  What a sad situation.  I think ignorance is bliss in that he truly doesn't know what he is missing.  I'm amazed he can do any sort of office job without knowing how to read and write though.  

Reminds me of the The Reader -- we just watched the movie last weekend.  But in her case, she was embarrassed and didn't want anyone to know.  Weird to be proud of such a thing unless it's just a cover.


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm not sure it was actually stated that the young man finished his schooling.  I think that was just something we have all been wondering about.  
deb


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## sjc (Oct 29, 2008)

My thoughts (and I speak from experience)

1. Has he been medically diagnosed with a learning disability?

2. Has he been to see a counselor or psychiatrist? Not wanting to better yourself is a whole other thing. In the case of not wanting to better yourself when you are perfectly capable; means that there is an underlying problem which needs to be addressed. If in fact he has a learning disability, there are all types of treatments depending on the disability: example, dyslexia, mirror imaging (my brother suffered from and has been cured) ADD, ADHD, etc...

3. Has the school system failed him and just let him slide by just to be rid of him? They did that with my brother; who passed by the skin of his teeth, just so they wouldn't have to deal with the situation. (But that was the 60's and there are laws now.)

There was a school principal who would be sitting in prison right now if my brother were a student today, instead of back then. She was tripling up his dose of Ritalin behind my mother's back, thinking it would calm him. He was wetting himself (she turned him into such a zombie) and she was making him sit in it all day for punishment. When my mother found out...HEADS ROLLED!!

I went on to be employed by the school system and I have one thing to say to parents: If your child comes home and tells you that so and so teacher or other did or said, this: BELIEVE YOUR CHILD and question the ATHORITY FIGURE. You would be surprised at what goes on. There are some_* FANTASTIC*_ teachers out there; please don't get me wrong...but like in any profession; there are a chosen few...

3. Without sounding rude; is this person lazy?

If you really want to help. Go to the learning center or some other educational store and buy phonics letters. If not, make them yourself...offer to school him x-amount of time per week, starting with the basics. Get some workbooks. Play Scrabble with open boards. Let you help him find words on his rack and apply them. If he says NO to all of the above; then he is just plain lazy and bless you for trying.

I have always cried inside for my brother. I was always the smart one and he was always "labeled" the dumb one of the twins. It is awful and I feel for you and your friend. It is hard on friends and family as well as the affected person. I could write a book. My twin sibling is 46 and it hasn't been an easy road...he's come a long way; and thankfully, so has the school system (for the mostpart). Find his attribute and accentuate it; my brother is gifted when it comes to working with his hands. He can fix anything; toaster, radio, computer, stove...etc. I am book smart and he is far more cabable than I when it comes to hands-on stuff.


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> I'd continue to tell him how to spell words when he asks. He will learn how to spell that word once he writes it correctly enough times, it will just happen. You can't make another person sit down and learn to read if he doesn't want to. If heartfelt discussion hasn't worked I'd left it go for now and still answer his questions. Refusing to help him spell when he asks will just generate resentment.


This. Exactly what I was going to say.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Hi I want to say first off thank you all so much for the replys and advice. I appreciate all the input and feedback and new questions. I'm gonna go back through and try to answer all the new questions that I read. Im so glad for all the replys because this issue has been bothering me for SO long and I haven't been able to talk about it alot or get any outsider advice.
I think this may be another long post to answer the new questions so please bear with me a little longer!! 

Ann in Arlington:


> Your friend's problem (mind you, I am NOT Dr. Phil) is that "it's working for him". Why SHOULD he bother to learn if he can always find someone to help him out? There isn't much you can do except stop enabling. I feel your frustration. . . .but you can't control what he does, only what you do and how you interact with him.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> Wow, that's a difficult situation.
> 
> However, you can't make someone change, he or she has to want to change. And if he or she thinks their life is fine as is, there's not much incentive to change.
> 
> ...


I agree with both of you on this. I KNOW for sure that even when he isn't around me he always asks other people to read or spell for him. So even when I stop helping/enabling him he will just figure it out elsewhere. Also that is a GREAT idea about reading to him. The only problem is I know he would assume it was just a stepping stone to helping him learn and he would 'act' uninterested. Still completely worth a try though and definitely worth my bit of better effort.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There could also be an issue with learning disabilities, such as dislexia.
> 
> Betsy


No learning disabilities, he only went to 3rd grade in elementary school. Then his family moved around alot (same reason his closest age sister is also illiterate) and they had intentions of homeschooling. But when the parents are both also severly limited in their reading capabilitys you could imagine how badly the schooling got put on the backburner.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

drenee said:


> Ann, your advice sounds really good. Personally, I'm glad you're not Dr. Phil. LOL.
> 
> koolmnbv, some people are very happy living in their own little worlds. Your story is frustrating on many levels. Your reaction to this family is appropriate in my opinion. This young man is 28. Very young. It is so aggrevating to me that he made it through some schooling without learning to read. Even if he only went to the 3rd or 4th grade he should have been able to pick up something. I'm not criticizing the teachers. I know they are overworked. But I am saying that somewhere along the line the ball gets dropped on some children.
> 
> ...


LOL I think Ann is much more relatable than Dr.phil anyday!

But yes Deb he seems completely happy in his little world. I think that adds to the problem enormously. He did pick up a little bit through the short time he was in school and that gives him the basics just for daily function. It would feel like a handicap to me but for him he feels the small amount he does know is all he needs to know. I don't blame the school system at all, I think he was cut short of ANY type of education and then his parents did not ever make up the slack. They are very simple also so they never saw lack of education as an issue.

You are right he may be illiterate but he is not stupid. He is smart enough to ALWAYS figure out a way to make sure it is either done for him or cut him enough slack that he doesn't have to put in any effort at all.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I've known several folks who learned to read well later than the usual age. (How's that for politically correct? Older than the traditional aged first grader? ) In all cases they had some reading disability, either dyslexia or something related or eye issues that didn't get diagnosed early enough. In some cases teachers noticed a problem, in some cases parents, and in some cases neither until HS or college. *This is not the case with him as I mentioned above *
> 
> I also worked one time at a day care center. (If you knew me well, you'd know how weird that sounds.) I was more or less the office manager and one of the caregivers who was there when I started couldn't read. She was smart though, she'd use colors and shapes to figure stuff out. Of course she couldn't do story time, but she knew her limitations and never gave any medicines or anything. The kids loved her 'cause she'd get down on the floor and play with them rather than just standing and watching.
> 
> ...


Ann this is the type of person with illiteracy that inspires me. She knew she was lacking in certain areas so she tried harder to make up for it, she also found coping mechanisms until she could properly learn. When she did have the oppurtunity to learn she took it! That is a hardship story with a great ending to me! My friend does not want to put out the effort because he knows somewhere,someway,someone will do it for him or hold his hand along the way.


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

I see a whole lot of assumptions being made here as why he isn't taking some sort of literacy class. With issues like this, it's very common for the person not to share their real reason with others. IMO this is not a situation for "tough love".


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Susan in VA said:


> I like the idea of reading him parts of stories and making him wonder about the rest. Or perhaps there is some other hobby (or a new topic that you can get him interested in) that entails looking up information. Even if you can get him to want to look up something on the web rather than in a book, that would be some progress. *No computer skills AT ALL!!! I don't even think it would be possible for him to get further than turning the computer on, he could MAYBE connect to IE but past that he would have someone come and type in whichever website he wanted to visit.*
> 
> I'm guessing that he is not married and has no kids. If he wants kids someday, would he want them to be able to read? The answer to that might tell you whether he thinks that literacy as a concept is unimportant or whether he just thinks it's of no interest to _him_. That in turn might help you figure out an "angle of attack". Even if it's just telling him that kids learn to read primarily from their parents, so if he ever wants the chain to end, _someone_ has to be first. *He does want kids and loves kids and would be a great dad in alot of ways but education would be nothing on a list of priorities. I know this because I am pregnant and I will ramble all the time about my son's future and he has said before "I got by just fine so don't worry about school,etc. It isn't as big a deal as you think"*
> 
> And if all else fails.... he's made it this far, he has a job, and friends, and only a few hundred years ago he would have been in the majority. We're lucky that we live _today_ in a time and place of mandatory schooling and near-universal literacy, but for most of the time since writing was invented, the vast majority of humans couldn't read (and in some parts of the world that's still true). So, sad as it seems to us, literacy isn't a requirement to leading a fulfilling life... small consolation in this case, I know, but if he's truly _happy_ without books, in the end you may just have to let him be. *This is the part that I know in the back of my mind but won't let myself realize. He knows he's technically fine, he knows he cant get by ok. He knows its not a life or death issue so he is fine just going through life like this. But for me I just can't grasp that....in the end I might just have to. *


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Cowgirl said:


> This story is beyond sad to me. I think of all the educational opportunities that are available to everybody in this country... and then about children in less fortunate countries who walk in their bare feet for miles just to go to school to learn to read. I don't know how anybody could be proud of not being able to read unless they couldn't because of a disabilityor lack of opportunity.


I completely agree, it is sad on many levels. I don't think he's proud of his problem as much as he just doesn't care at all and is blatantly open about it. Thats how I know he is not ashamed or embarrassed by this problem. He thinks its just fine and/or normal to have this problem.



Rasputina said:


> I'd continue to tell him how to spell words when he asks. He will learn how to spell that word once he writes it correctly enough times, it will just happen. You can't make another person sit down and learn to read if he doesn't want to. If heartfelt discussion hasn't worked I'd left it go for now and still answer his questions. Refusing to help him spell when he asks will just generate resentment.


I think he will eventually become resentful if I do not always help him when he asks, and I know he will turn it around that I am the mean one. But as much as you THINK he would eventually see the spelling enough times that he would get it right, he doesn't. One word in particular that I have seen him spell incorrectly MANY MANY times is 'hospital' he spells it 'hopstall' That word sticks out in my mind because I read his version as Hops-Tall. But I have even written the word out before and said look at the difference and sounded it out to him before and I promise you one time he said, " but you reread mine out loud enough times that you finally figured it out. So obviously my spelling worked good enough"


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Chad Winters (#102) said:


> ouch....I just don't understand being proud of it. I have a brother-in-law who is proud that he has never read a book. He told his young children that he didn't think reading was useful and proud that he didn't. I can't believe he said that to them! He can read if he wants to of course.
> 
> He I think is mainly lazy and being "proud" of it is a way to feel good about yourself when you shouldn't


It's hard to explain when I say 'proud' but you kinda get the idea of it because you see the similar additude from your B.I.L.

It's not that he's proud of the fact he can't read but moreso that its almost funny to him. Like reading is so unimportant. Like, "Hey look how good I am and I never had to read anything!" Its caveman-like.



ProfCrash said:


> Base don the story told above, I doubt that there is a problem with learning disabilities. Only one person in the family is literate. I think if there was a learning disability involved the family would happily use that excuse. *You are right on spot there, but that would mean that they assume illiteracy is a problem in the first place. Which they do not! *
> 
> It sounds to me like this is a family that is passing down bad habits. The parents don't read, so they never read to their kids. The kids mimicked their parents behavior. ** sigh* I sadly agree*


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

sjc said:


> My thoughts (and I speak from experience)
> 
> 1. Has he been medically diagnosed with a learning disability?
> 
> ...


SO Sorry for clogging up most of the entire 2nd page with all of my replys. I was away from my computer almost all day today so I didn't get a chance to reply as they came in. Thank you everyone for the replys and I will use alot of your advice in as many ways as I can. I do want to help my friend but in the end I think he may not WANT the help. I also think he doesn't think he NEEDS any help. Kind of like when a functioning alcoholic doesn't see there is a real problem but everyone else can. Just because they can get through the day and complete daily functions doesn't mean there is no problem. But I will still try because I do think it is an important issue. Maybe one day he will think so also, but since he has never been brought up that way I don't think that is likely. I will still do my best to try!


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

I think you're being a good friend by wanting to try.  You may not get anywhere, but you care enough to explore all the options for him...  I hope he realizes what a good and supportive friend he has in you.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Susan in VA said:


> I think you're being a good friend by wanting to try. You may not get anywhere, but you care enough to explore all the options for him... I hope he realizes what a good and supportive friend he has in you.


Thank you! In some ways I feel like maybe sometimes I'm pushing him or wanting something for him that he doesn't want for himself so why do I care? I know that reading is a joy and a blessing and I hate to see someone pass on it just because they can't really be bothered. I guess I will know for sure when the time comes that I should just let go and realize his problem is not my problem.

I just CAN'T grasp the fact that someone would not WANT to read. Why?? But in the end him and most of his immediate family does not see it as important so they just don't care. They are wealthy through inheritance, HUGE inheritance. Other family members re-invested it for them a LONG time ago so basically now they just reap the benefits and they live a simple enough life. Nothing extravagent. So as far as any immediate pressure or financial risk they don't see how they NEED this extra knowledge. It's all mind boggling to me and I guess thats what frustrates me, their basic ignorance towards reading. I will keep trying because there is a chance MAYBE one day he will want it for himself also.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Kool, all I can say is you seem to have much more patience than I would have had.  It really does sound like he has no interest and, sadly, the lack of financial need means that he probably won't ever really have to.  (Another argument for spending your money and not leaving it to your kids. . . .I think I WILL get that DX!  )

I do sort of understand his mindset, though:  in school, if it was a subject I had no interest in -- or if the teacher was not to my liking -- I never did more than I had to to get by.  I was fortunate in that most subjects weren't too difficult for me -- even the ones I didn't like.  In his case, why SHOULD he put in any effort if he doesn't have to.  He IS lazy -- and I get it.  And, as to spelling, well, he has a point there too:

“Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.”


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> In his case, why SHOULD he put in any effort if he doesn't have to. He IS lazy -- and I get it. And, as to spelling, well, he has a point there too:
> 
> "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosnt mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."


Ann, I think you are right. Even though it frustrates me I guess his ignorance is his bliss. I just can't understand that mentality.

The 2nd part is amazing, I never heard that before and I am surprised at the fact that it's true. It makes sense now that you say the human brain doesn't read every letter just the word as a whole. But it still surprised me that your whole paragraph was easily readable even scrambled up like that. 
Learn something new everyday! Thanks for posting that, it was interesting!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Not my paragraph. . . .One like it goes around via e-mail periodically. . . . .I found this one by googling "how the brain reads" or something like that. . . . .


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

As someone with dyslexia and auditory discrimination, I know that I read a decent amount based on context. So the above paragraph is no surprise to me. Over time I have learned how to read words properly and how to pronounce them properly but it is not necessarily a strength of mine. I love spell check because my spelling is awful. I rarely write using my complete vocabulary because I misspell words so badly that spell check is clueless.


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Not my paragraph. . . .One like it goes around via e-mail periodically. . . . .I found this one by googling "how the brain reads" or something like that. . . . .





ProfCrash said:


> As someone with dyslexia and auditory discrimination, I know that I read a decent amount based on context. So the above paragraph is no surprise to me. Over time I have learned how to read words properly and how to pronounce them properly but it is not necessarily a strength of mine. I love spell check because my spelling is awful. I rarely write using my complete vocabulary because I misspell words so badly that spell check is clueless.


It's so interesting how the brain works in regards to that. I guess I can understand now how people with learning disabilities still 'manage'. Although it's hard the brain still allows for a little leeway (<--sp?).


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

Ann, that paragraph is amazing.  I was three or four words into it before I realized the words were messed up.  

kool, you are being the absolute best friend you can be.  We all should be so lucky to have a friend that cares as much as you.

deb


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

CS said:


> With all due respect, it sounds like he needs a shrink, not an English teacher.


I agree. However, as a last resort, show him a wonderful film, "Stanley and Iris," with Robert De Niro and Jane Fonda.

If this beautiful and moving story about a man who couldn't read doesn't snap him out of his stubborn self-destructiveness--then he's hopeless. And you have better things to do with your worthy compassion.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100680/synopsis


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## koolmnbv (Mar 25, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> I agree. However, as a last resort, show him a wonderful film, "Stanley and Iris," with Robert De Niro and Jane Fonda.
> 
> If this beautiful and moving story about a man who couldn't read doesn't snap him out of his stubborn self-destructiveness--then he's hopeless. And you have better things to do with your worthy compassion.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100680/synopsis


Thank you for the film reccomendation. I will DEFINITELY be showing him this because over the past week I have tried several other "intervention" type techniques and he basically doesn't care. I am pretty sure he will sit and watch a movie just as long as I don't tell him what it's generally about. Whether it works or not is out of my control I guess.

I just wish he would give it a chance, he shoots everything down (involving reading) before he even trys.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

Rasputina said:


> I'd continue to tell him how to spell words when he asks. He will learn how to spell that word once he writes it correctly enough times, it will just happen. You can't make another person sit down and learn to read if he doesn't want to. If heartfelt discussion hasn't worked I'd left it go for now and still answer his questions. Refusing to help him spell when he asks will just generate resentment.


I'm not so sure - he's 28 - how many more times will he have to ask? 
I'm a bleeding heart about some things, but this isn't sounding like one of those times. My dad used to say "There's nothing wrong with being ignorant (or in this case, illiterate) - there is something wrong with being unwilling to learn."


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## sjc (Oct 29, 2008)

Please keep us updated.  We are concerned and would like to know how you are progressing with the situation.  I wish you both all the best.  I find it very sad and at the same time, for your sake frustrating.
Thank you for the lovely comments about my brother.


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