# August KU Rate: $0.00419



## jcalloway (Jan 10, 2014)

Unenthused.


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## LittleFox (Jan 3, 2015)

I'm very unamused. I can't afford to go wide, if I could I'd be out at the first possible opportunity.


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## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

Yup. Me, too. I'd already unchecked my auto-renew boxes. There's nothing about this number that makes me regret that decision. I'm actually starting to suspect that I'd make more _on Amazon _by not participating in KU.

The sales on other retailers will just be a nice bonus.


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## EllieDee (May 28, 2017)

Oh man, it just keeps getting worse! I was thinking about sticking my eventual SF trilogy on KU at first for the exposure, but is it really worthwhile for such an insultingly low payout?



> I'm actually starting to suspect that I'd make more on Amazon by not participating in KU.


I think I've heard a couple people on the board say exactly this. Of course, it's always tricky since no two authors have the same experience...


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

on a positive note it's up. If it keeps going up at this rate by the year 2080 it should be .0065

patience young grasshopper.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Isn't that up about 4% from July? At least it's moving in the right direction.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

So much for the speculation (some people insisting) that getting rid of the scammers would boost the payout. July was .00422. This is .00419. That's a drop.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I am keeping the renewal boxes checked until the last moment simply because I see no reason to give Amazon advance notice but one at a time starting at the next renewal in October I am taking my various series out. This has gone way, WAY beyond ridiculous.

ETA: It's a bit stupid that I'm pissed. It's business not a personal relationship, but I do feel as though Amazon is slapping us in the face. I had decided last month that I could no longer _afford_ to keep my novels in KU, but having my face rubbed in how little they value our business does have me pissed off.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> So much for the speculation (some people insisting) that getting rid of the scammers would boost the payout. July was .00422. This is .00419. That's a drop.


https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,254268.0.html

thought it was 0.00403472


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## hottakes (Jul 25, 2017)

NO. none of this "at least the rates up" bullcrap.

that's how amazon gets away with screwing us: they give us one horrible month, followed by a horrible-but-slightly-less horrible month to get us used to these low awful rates. we start making excuses because we're lazy and oh at least amazon's giving us .0001 cent per page more right guys?

remember when people said .005 was a fair rate? i'd be happy with .0045+ honestly, and i think that's still ripping us off.

we've been declining for years. i was optimistic that after they made changes to kenpc along with claiming they can actually accurately track pages read things would start to improve. i expected at least .0045 for august.

.0041 IS REALLY REALLY BAD and i think an indicator that amazon has no interest in raising the rates to something worthwhile for us.


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## jcalloway (Jan 10, 2014)

Modi Gliani said:


> So much for the speculation (some people insisting) that getting rid of the scammers would boost the payout. July was .00422. This is .00419. That's a drop.


July was 0.00403
June was 0.00422


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

hottakes said:


> NO. none of this "at least the rates up" bullcrap.
> 
> that's how amazon gets away with screwing us: they give us one horrible month, followed by a horrible-but-slightly-less horrible month to get us used to these low awful rates. we start making excuses because we're lazy and oh at least amazon's giving us .0001 cent per page more right guys?
> 
> ...


QFT

I'm done being frog-boiled.


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

Rate by country as usual:


Store	Currency	Rate	Change from PriorAmazon.com	USD 0.0041934 3.9%Amazon.co.uk	GBP 0.0032161 3.9%Amazon.de	EUR 0.0028617 3.9%Amazon.fr	EUR 0.0041639 3.9%Amazon.co.jp	JPY 0.5197279 3.9%Amazon.ca	CAD 0.0041232 3.9%Amazon.it	EUR 0.0041639 3.9%Amazon.es	EUR 0.0041639 3.9%Amazon.in	INR 0.0815656 3.9%Amazon.com.au	AUD 0.0036015 3.9%Amazon.com.br	BRL 0.0101419 3.9%Amazon.com.mx	MXN 0.0702803 0.0%

(Note that I didn't have a .mx number for July).

July top-line rate was .00403, so this is a small uptick.


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## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

Acheknia said:


> Hmm, not great but every post I've made on FB/Twitter/promo sites states that all of my eBooks are in KU, way too much bother to change that everywhere so I'll suck it up & hope that I can get enough reads over time to make me glad that I'm still in (for now anyway).


I can relate. Plus, I'm about to release the second book in a two-book series where the first book is in Kindle Unlimited, so my upcoming release will, alas, need to be in Kindle Unlimited too, if only to avoid irritating readers of book #1.

It will take some time to extricate myself from this mess, but I think it will be worth it in the end. I'm going to start with my older books and work them out of the system over time and launch them on other retailers over the course of several weeks/months.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MmmmmPie said:


> I can relate. Plus, I'm about to release the second book in a two-book series where the first book is in Kindle Unlimited, so my upcoming release will, alas, need to be in Kindle Unlimited too, if only to avoid irritating readers of book #1.
> 
> It will take some time to extricate myself from this mess, but I think it will be worth it in the end. I'm going to start with my older books and work them out of the system over time and launch them on other retailers over the course of several weeks/months.


I'm taking mine out one series at a time. Trying to extricate my entire back catalogue at once would be too difficult and eases the pain somewhat. But I am out, even though it will take a while. I'm simply done.

No, that ridiculous 'rise' does not count as a rise. It is an insult, like offering somone on salary a cent and hour increase.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

So glad I decided to go back wide.


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## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

JRTomlin said:


> I'm taking mine out one series at a time.


That's a good idea. It would ease the pain, like you said, plus give some time to build up a presence on other retailers. I think I might have to follow your fine lead on this.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

hottakes said:


> NO. none of this "at least the rates up" bullcrap.
> 
> that's how amazon gets away with screwing us: they give us one horrible month, followed by a horrible-but-slightly-less horrible month to get us used to these low awful rates. we start making excuses because we're lazy and oh at least amazon's giving us .0001 cent per page more right guys?
> 
> ...


Yeah, sadly (because I'm lazy and don't want to go to the effort plus page reads make up a large portion of my income), I think it's time to start making plans to go wide. After taking a hit on KENPC with v3.0, I was relying on it making a big impact on the payout rate. What a disappointment!


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

To me, it isn't the rate so much as the heavy-handed process and the pretense that they aren't setting a rate, but a total payout.  

Can anyone imagine another business transaction that operates this way? We need to commit for 90-days when we won't know the rate we'll be paid (or even a formula it's based on) until afterward.

At some point, self-respect trumps $$. Granted, for someone like me who doesn't really need the little bit of income I earn from my books, the equation is a lot different from someone with three kids and a mortgage. I certainly don't mean to sound judgmental.

Just FYI, if you haven't done a promo, they'll sometimes let you withdraw from Select before the period is out. One day, someone withdrew several books for me. I asked to have some others removed a couple days later and was told it wasn't possible. So I replied to the first rep, and he did it for me.  

Good luck to everyone, whatever you decide.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

EllieDee said:


> Oh man, it just keeps getting worse! I was thinking about sticking my eventual SF trilogy on KU at first for the exposure, but is it really worthwhile for such an insultingly low payout?


as someone who has been anti-KU since late 2016... i find myself ironically in a contradictory viewpoint now.

IF people start to abandon KU en mass there will be a honeymoon period for those who remain where there are fewer authors but still tons of readers. Authors should see a huge spike in KENP rate if that happens.

Then, readers will start to leave (as they notice a lot of quality authors have left), but as they are doing that, authors will start returning because of a higher rate, which will only then drop because readers have started to leave.

And going wide will get harder if people en mass start doing it.

So the real question is whether authors really will leave en mass. I don't think they will. Kboarders are a tiny fraction of the publishing community. I think most people will stay in.


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## EllieDee (May 28, 2017)

> IF people start to abandon KU en mass there will be a honeymoon period for those who remain where there are fewer authors but still tons of readers.


That's a good point. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.

The thing is, inertia is a powerful force. I see so many people staying in bad employment situations (not talking about KU right now) because they're paralyzed at the thought of fighting for financial survival somewhere else.

I kind of have the feeling the KENP will keep dropping, and dropping, and KU authors will complain but still won't budge. Maybe if KU drives off some of their high-profile stars who then post something negative on their blogs?

I can see a viral article that might discourage the new generation of authors from signing up and getting stuck in the cycle. Kind of like that Guardian article a few years ago about how the 'average author' won't even earn $500. I can almost see the sensationalist headlines now.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

This certainly encourages plans to go wide. I like being in KU because it's easy, but I think wide is the best long term bet. KU readers are much, much less loyal than buyers. So much of my marketing efforts go to chasing readers who won't stick with me. I'm going to see how my next release does before I start making serious plans, but I'm also going to update all my rough sketches. I don't think I'm in the best place to go wide at the moment, but I can get there. It just might take awhile.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

jcalloway said:


> July was 0.00403
> June was 0.00422


Thanks. I stand corrected. The intriguing question for me is what is Amazon trying to achieve by dropping the rate 20% from .005 to .004? This bafffles me.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

It sucks because some of my stuff is middle grade chapter books (in the vein of Goosebumps). They fall around the 15k-20k range (because it's the perfect size for those kind of books). Before the switch, I could make a decent amount of money from borrows, now it's virtually nothing. 

As some one else mentioned--I actually make more money on AMAZON when my books aren't enrolled in KU. In the program I get around $0.65 a borrow. When I sell them I get $2.07. The borrows don't make up for the lack of sales because my stuff has limits, it doesn't have mass appeal, but I could make decent money in the middle. Now I feel the middle has dropped out. 600 borrows a month no longer cuts it.

Amazon won't care until big players start dropping out and that'll probably never happen. It may be worth a try for some people making five figures a month, though. I think they have a good chance of making the same amount (or more) outside of KU even if they're getting less eyeballs on their books. Because if you already have thousands of people reading your books, I don't think moving away from KU would murder your career. Heck, I'm surprised that the big players haven't just created their own subscription service through a site like Patreon or on their own website.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

EllieDee said:


> I kind of have the feeling the KENP will keep dropping, and dropping, and KU authors will complain but still won't budge. Maybe if KU drives off some of their high-profile stars who then post something negative on their blogs?


I think another big factor is going to be whether zon's competitors seize on this trend. As they see a sudden increase in authors on their store, do they take full advantage of it or just do nothing.

Same goes for promoters. Do they start to give preference to wide authors the way bookbub does.

Lots of variables that go into whether KU will hold despite lower earnings, or whether it will pull a Hindenburg. Only time will tell I guess.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> I think another big factor is going to be whether zon's competitors seize on this trend. As they see a sudden increase in authors on their store, do they take full advantage of it or just do nothing.
> 
> Same goes for promoters. Do they start to give preference to wide authors the way bookbub does.
> 
> Lots of variables that go into whether KU will hold despite lower earnings, or whether it will pull a Hindenburg. Only time will tell I guess.


I don't understand why Google hasn't come out with a subscription service yet. They have YouTube Red connected with Play Music, a book subscription would just sweeten the deal. And I'm positive that they'd pay more than Amazon (the whole pot thing has always been a joke--just pick a flat rate for books of a certain length). Scammers won't be a problem too if they keep making authors wait to be approved, and if some cheaters slip through, just flag them and delete their accounts.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Google doesn't seem to care enough to make a subscription service. They could have been a big competitor with Amazon on ebooks. I expected that they would be. Instead, they're barely even on the playing field.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> Google doesn't seem to care enough to make a subscription service. They could have been a big competitor with Amazon on ebooks. I expected that they would be. Instead, they're barely even on the playing field.


I know. I figured they'd announce something after buying Oyster. Who knows, maybe something is still in the works


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

JRTomlin said:


> Google doesn't seem to care enough to make a subscription service. They could have been a big competitor with Amazon on ebooks. I expected that they would be. Instead, they're barely even on the playing field.


Is Google Play even open to new accounts for publishers?

They are clearly not trying to compete with Amazon.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

D. Zollicoffer said:


> I know. I figured they'd announce something after buying Oyster. Who knows, maybe something is still in the works


The problem they all have is whether challenging zon is worth it in the end. You'll never kill zon... so you'll spend a TON and ultimately just end up splitting the market with them. It may not be worth it in their minds... they may see it as mutually assured destruction (or lack of ROI as it were).

If someone is going to challenge zon, I've always seen it as a Walmart/Kobo/Microsoft type of partnership. There may be Asian players also that I don't know of, but I don't see it being Alibaba.

I hate Walmart, but right now they are the only ones that could mount a serious challenge. They have 4 times the revenues of zon. All they'd have to do is acquire Kobo, push their ereaders in all their stores, voila, zon is in for a world of hurt.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Is Google Play even open to new accounts for publishers?
> 
> They are clearly not trying to compete with Amazon.


They used to be. Now they've closed them off for some reason. I thought it was because they were planing to launch a new service, but I guess not.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

I can't buy the idea that Amazon's interest in a low payout is to maximize profits from KU. The entire annual revenue from KU (let us say $300 million from subscribers) is only a fraction of 1 percent of the total Amazon revenue (about $100 billion). They could dump KU or increase the payout to .01 per page and either way there would be no real impact on their total revenue. And if the purpose of KU is to drive people to the general store, you should want the maximum number of subscibers and never mind the cost of KU---no matter what the cost, it would still be a profitable loss leader. No, there is something else going on here.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Seneca42 said:


> The problem they all have is whether challenging zon is worth it in the end. You'll never kill zon... so you'll spend a TON and ultimately just end up splitting the market with them. It may not be worth it in their minds... they may see it as mutually assured destruction (or lack of ROI as it were).
> 
> If someone is going to challenge zon, I've always seen it as a Walmart/Kobo/Microsoft type of partnership. There may be Asian players also that I don't know of, but I don't see it being Alibaba.
> 
> I hate Walmart, but right now they are the only ones that could mount a serious challenge. They have 4 times the revenues of zon. All they'd have to do is acquire Kobo, push their ereaders in all their stores, voila, zon is in for a world of hurt.


Some truth to this.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> No, there is something else going on here.


You're overthinking zon's motivations. Apple could easily afford to pay its chinese slave labor more, so why don't they? Because why pay more than you have to? Why in the world would zon pay you .005 if you'll take .004 or even .003? Especially if no competitor is a serious challenger to them (and why is that, because everyone is in KU which requires exclusivity, hehe).

And while .004 versus .005 doesn't seem huge to you, for zon it's .005 versus .006 in their pocket and they've got thousands upon thousands of authors feeding them that revenue stream; that's a 20% difference to them. Toss that out why? So authors will be happy? Who cares if they are happy if they aren't walking?

Anyway, they've got authors in the perfect little trap. Sucker you in with high KENP, kill their competitors, then once they own the market, take the boots to you. This is business 101 and I'm always shocked that authors don't see this and continue to say "whatev, I make more in KU so I'm a do what I want!."

hehe, the whole KU situation is quite comical at this point.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Sigh.

I've been thinking about going wide again for some time now....then I stop and remind myself why I quit wide and went in on KU. Especially since I made the jump during KU1 at $1.35/book flat when, with the exception of two 25,000 word novellas, all my books are at 100,000 words or higher  (500+ KENP). I did it because B&N sales had gone down the tubes, I'd had no real success on the other sites, and hadn't worked to make them a success, either--with everything else going on in my life, it was just too overwhelming even to contemplate.  I did it because I wanted to simplify things by being able to focus on one platform with the possibility of building. Then KU2 came along and it seemed like a great idea. Now? Not happy...but the single focus motive still applies, and I'm still earning more than the $1.35/book that I'd expected to make when I moved....but the boosts that KU1 used to give aren't there any more.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Just got the fund email.

"The KDP Select Global Fund for August is $19.4 million."

Did they not add to the fund? That looks like the same number I saw last time I logged into KDP, but I don't pay careful attention. That is more concerning than the rate being .00419.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> You're overthinking zon's motivations. Apple could easily afford to pay its chinese slave labor more, so why don't they? Because why pay more than you have to? Why in the world would zon pay you .005 if you'll take .004 or even .003? Especially if no competitor is a serious challenger to them (and why is that, because everyone is in KU which requires exclusivity, hehe).
> 
> And while .004 versus .005 doesn't seem huge to you, for zon it's .005 versus .006 in their pocket and they've got thousands upon thousands of authors feeding them that revenue stream; that's a 20% difference to them. Toss that out why? So authors will be happy? Who cares if they are happy if they aren't walking?
> 
> ...


If what you say is true, and I can't argue with it, the KDP platform for publishing will eventually have enough bad PR to go the way of vanity presses, with a consequent tarnishing of the nobility of Jeff Bezos. And so it goes. Maybe no surprise. I think it's sad that your reasoning is strong. Maybe it's a reaffirmation that there is no such thing as Utopian Capitalism.


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## afwriter (Nov 29, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Just got the fund email.
> 
> "The KDP Select Global Fund for August is $19.4 million."
> 
> Did they not add to the fund? That looks like the same number I saw last time I logged into KDP, but I don't pay careful attention. That is more concerning than the rate being .00419.


They are testing their numbers out on us. Not adding to the pot and seeing what the rate does after hitting the scam stuff. I've always worried about them adding to the pot the way they do. It's been a HUGE issue since day 1. So they KNOW they are in over their heads here with the program. There has never been a month where the pot they say is what they actually pay. In the beginning the pot was like $8m or something and they would add $2,$3m to beef up the number. I think on their end they aren't willing to add more to the pot. I mean, we've gone up like $10m a month in the pot... 
Granted I'm sure there are a crap ton more subscribers on their end, but they look at it as "Why should we keeping adding? Let's see what the rate 'really' is and see what the authors do" ...


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> Anyway, they've got authors in the perfect little trap. Sucker you in with high KENP, kill their competitors, then once they own the market, take the boots to you. This is business 101 and I'm always shocked that authors don't see this and continue to say "whatev, I make more in KU so I'm a do what I want!."


I think that's a little simplistic. One big negative KU has had for the Kindle store in general is it's exacerbated the dominance of the narrow genre books.

Here are the top 20 books in fiction->classics:
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Fiction-Classics/zgbs/digital-text/157050011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_4_7588785011_1

That has to be a turn-off for a serious reader of fiction.

Here's the same category at Kobo:
https://www.kobo.com/us/en/search?Query=&fcmedia=Book&id=4f51fbee-b709-41fe-8c3d-91b8ab6edead

Ku has basically supercharged the sales of the authors who successfully write-to-market in narrow, popular genres. The non-genre readers that have experimented with KU probably don't tend to stay long. The romance readers who read 30+ books a month will tend to renew. So the # of books read per $9.99 monthly fee goes up, payouts go down, and the pool of authors gets ever narrower. (But that doesn't mean Amazon won't make $$ off of it.)


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## KylieG (Oct 30, 2015)

MmmmmPie said:


> Yup. Me, too. I'd already unchecked my auto-renew boxes. There's nothing about this number that makes me regret that decision. I'm actually starting to suspect that I'd make more _on Amazon _by not participating in KU.
> 
> The sales on other retailers will just be a nice bonus.


Everybody's different, but for me dropping out of KU has increased my typical month take home from $600 to $1200.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Bob Stewart said:


> Here are the top 20 books in fiction->classics:
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Fiction-Classics/zgbs/digital-text/157050011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_4_7588785011_1


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## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

KylieG said:


> Everybody's different, but for me dropping out of KU has increased my typical month take home from $600 to $1200.


Interesting. Would you mind elaborating? How much of that $1200 is from Amazon? Thanks for any info!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Bob Stewart said:


> Here are the top 20 books in fiction->classics:
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Fiction-Classics/zgbs/digital-text/157050011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_4_7588785011_1
> 
> That has to be a turn-off for a serious reader of fiction.


Are you saying that neither _Going Down_ nor _Going Deep_ were required reading in your high school english classes?

I find that hard to believe.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> If what you say is true, and I can't argue with it, the KDP platform for publishing will eventually have enough bad PR to go the way of vanity presses, with a consequent tarnishing of the nobility of Jeff Bezos. And so it goes. Maybe no surprise. I think it's sad that your reasoning is strong. Maybe it's a reaffirmation that there is no such thing as Utopian Capitalism.


zon and walmart and many others outgrew anything intended by capitalism a long time ago (we're in a oligarchy form of capitalism, a long way from utopian version of it). Walmart put thousands of mom and pop shops out of business and should have been stopped under some version of antitrust, but never were.

Zon will suffer on the PR front eventually, just as walmart has, but if they are big enough when that happens it won't matter (just like tons of people hate walmart, but still shop there, because they can't afford not to).

The best case scenario for us, as content producers, is Godzilla (walmart) and King Kong (zon) decide to fight and content producers are seen as an asset to win over (then we'll be treated very well). Until then though, there's literally zero reason for zon to care whether any author is happy or not.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Kyra Halland said:


>


Had the same reaction! 

Good lord, those are some interesting classics! I only saw three books that could fit into that category.


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Are you saying that neither _Going Down_ nor _Going Deep_ were required reading in your high school english classes?
> 
> I find that hard to believe.


Mine was a slow school, we never got through the Sold at the Auction: Virgin and Billionaire Romance Series Box Set. (If she's still a virgin in book four, something is seriously wrong with that guy.)


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Bob Stewart said:


> Mine was a slow school, we never got through the Sold at the Auction: Virgin and Billionaire Romance Series Box Set. (If she's still a virgin in book four, something is seriously wrong with that guy.)


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Bob Stewart said:


> I think that's a little simplistic. One big negative KU has had for the Kindle store in general is it's exacerbated the dominance of the narrow genre books.
> 
> Here are the top 20 books in fiction->classics:
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Fiction-Classics/zgbs/digital-text/157050011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_4_7588785011_1
> ...


Extremely overly simplistic.

I am a KU member and do not read hetero romances at all and only a few LGBT romances few of which are KU. And ALL novels on Amazon fall into a genre so which of us isn't in some way a 'genre writer'? Maybe you should eschew making that into a pejorative.

The novels I have had in KU are all either classic style Historical Fiction (NOT historical romance) or historical mysteries. I absolutely do not 'write to market', yet my novels have done well there.

I have seen a lot of assumptions and accusations thrown at both KU readers and authors, most of which are frankly bullshit.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Are you saying that neither _Going Down_ nor _Going Deep_ were required reading in your high school english classes?
> 
> I find that hard to believe.


Nah, we focused on _Sold to My Professor_ instead.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Okay, folks, let's not make fun of the romance titles. Yes, they're obviously miscategorized in "classics," and it stinks that those authors are putting their books there and that Amazon isn't policing its categories. But _Going Deep_ is no more inherently laughable than the kind of books I write, with magic and dinosaurs running around and whatnot.


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

cadle-sparks said:


> If Amazon were "screwing" me, I'd leave Amazon. They aren't, so I don't.
> 
> They offer me the opportunity to be read all around the world.
> The interface is pain-free to learn and use.
> ...


+1000%


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Bob Stewart said:


> I think that's a little simplistic. One big negative KU has had for the Kindle store, in general, is it's exacerbated the dominance of the narrow genre books.
> 
> Here are the top 20 books in fiction->classics:
> https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Fiction-Classics/zgbs/digital-text/157050011/ref=zg_bs_unv_kstore_4_7588785011_1
> ...


I doubt readers of literary fiction look at the Amazon bestseller lists. They hit Amazon when they have a purchase in mind based on reviews read elsewhere. They may be influenced by also-boughts but that's about it.


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> The best case scenario for us, as content producers, is Godzilla (walmart) and King Kong (zon) decide to fight and content producers are seen as an asset to win over (then we'll be treated very well). Until then though, there's literally zero reason for zon to care whether any author is happy or not.


Amazon as Godzilla is an interesting comparison, considering his destructor/protector relationship with Japan over 30 films. Since the films past the first one are all showing alternative versions of history where Godzilla changed the course of Japan's history, it's interesting to see that Japan ends up as a superpower because of what they've learned fighting Godzilla. Amazon supercharged the self-publishing industry, but they live in its shadow at all times and are trying to adapt to find safety.

(It's been a long time since I've seen Godzilla, but don't Americans from the future come back to the 90s to try to stop Japan from becoming a super power at one point, only to be stopped by Japanese from the future? Just how many times did Japan dig up the corpses of dead Godzillas/kaiju and turn them into robots?)


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

Emphasis my own, but these posts in their entirety -- plus Seneca's other observations in this thread -- are very insightful:



Bob Stewart said:


> ...
> 
> Ku has basically supercharged the sales of the authors who successfully write-to-market in narrow, popular genres. The non-genre readers that have experimented with KU probably don't tend to stay long. The romance readers who read 30+ books a month will tend to renew. *So the # of books read per $9.99 monthly fee goes up, payouts go down, and the pool of authors gets ever narrower. (But that doesn't mean Amazon won't make $$ off of it.)*





Seneca42 said:


> ...
> 
> The best case scenario for us, as content producers, is Godzilla (walmart) and King Kong (zon) decide to fight and content producers are seen as an asset to win over (then we'll be treated very well). Until then though, *there's literally zero reason for zon to care whether any author is happy or not.*





cadle-sparks said:


> If Amazon were "screwing" me, I'd leave Amazon. They aren't, so I don't.
> 
> They offer me the opportunity to be read all around the world.
> The interface is pain-free to learn and use.
> ...


As some have pointed out, Amazon's management of KU is basic business practice. Payouts decrease when more titles join the pool, or less readers subscribe. Amazon isn't going to throw more money into the pool if, say, subscribers are down. That would be a bad business move. They don't owe authors anything. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. Amazon is neither nefarious demon or cuddly author teddy. They're a business, and their objective is to make money.

If you're an author, you're a business too, and you need to think as such. If KU no longer makes sense as part of your business strategy, it's time to figure out something else.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

When KU payout gets down to .0011, there will still be those claiming they're making money in KU.

Thus, there's no reason for Amazon to stop reducing the payout.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

elizabethbarone said:


> Emphasis my own, but these posts in their entirety -- plus Seneca's other observations in this thread -- are very insightful:
> 
> As some have pointed out, Amazon's management of KU is basic business practice. Payouts decrease when more titles join the pool, or less readers subscribe. Amazon isn't going to throw more money into the pool if, say, subscribers are down. That would be a bad business move. They don't owe authors anything. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. Amazon is neither nefarious demon or cuddly author teddy. They're a business, and their objective is to make money.
> 
> If you're an author, you're a business too, and you need to think as such. If KU no longer makes sense as part of your business strategy, it's time to figure out something else.


When did anyone in this thread say that Amazon owed them anything? I haven't seen it. That is a strawman argument and you know it.

People in this thread are debating what business decision is right for them or else saying (as I am) that they've already made one and why. I don't think we need condescending lectures.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

cadle-sparks said:


> If Amazon were "screwing" me, I'd leave Amazon. They aren't, so I don't.
> 
> They offer me the opportunity to be read all around the world.
> The interface is pain-free to learn and use.
> ...


Well said. Thank you.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Okay, folks, let's not make fun of the romance titles. Yes, they're obviously miscategorized in "classics," and it stinks that those authors are putting their books there and that Amazon isn't policing its categories. But _Going Deep_ is no more inherently laughable than the kind of books I write, with magic and dinosaurs running around and whatnot.


Thank you.


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## hottakes (Jul 25, 2017)

this whole "you can opt out any time so why are you complaining" argument thing is myopic and insulting. 

the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not KU is worthwhile, what we can do about it, etc etc.

that's just a way of shutting down discussion and isn't helpful.


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## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

hottakes said:


> this whole "you can opt out any time so why are you complaining" argument thing is myopic and insulting. the point of this thread is to discuss whether or not KU is worthwhile, what we can do about it, etc etc. that's just a way of shutting down discussion and isn't helpful.


I agree completely (with this, and other posts expressing a similar sentiment.)

The truth is, Amazon has been great for me, and I've made some nice money in Kindle Unlimited. I'm very thankful for the opportunity to write full-time. But things change, and as business-people, we need to keep our eye on the market and adjust accordingly. For some, it makes sense to stay in Kindle Unlimited. For others, it makes sense to get out.

Personally, I find these threads very helpful, because it helps me consider the pros and cons as I adjust my strategy.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

KU authors come and go,
Talking of how the rate is too low.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JRTomlin said:


> When did anyone in this thread say that Amazon owed them anything? I haven't seen it. That is a strawman argument and you know it.
> 
> People in this thread are debating what business decision is right for them or else saying (as I am) that they've already made one and why. I don't think we need condescending lectures.


I won't speak for Elizabeth or Lou, both of whom mentioned that Amazon doesn't owe authors anything.

But I had the same reaction when reading posts like this one...



JRTomlin said:


> ETA: It's a bit stupid that I'm p*ssed. It's business not a personal relationship, but I do feel as though *Amazon is slapping us in the face*. I had decided last month that I could no longer _afford_ to keep my novels in KU, but *having my face rubbed in how little they value our business does have me p*ssed off*.


It sounds emotional. It sounds like you're taking personal offense at something Amazon has done. And that can only happen if you believe you're owed something (respect, revenue, etc.) that is being purposefully withheld from you.

Personally, I'm always appreciative in these threads of posts that remind us that Amazon doesn't own authors anything. Otherwise, it's too easy for posts like the following to foment unnecessary outrage and unwarranted accusations.



hottakes said:


> that's how *amazon gets away with screwing us*: they give us one horrible month, followed by a horrible-but-slightly-less horrible month to get us used to these low awful rates. we start making excuses because we're lazy and oh at least amazon's giving us .0001 cent per page more right guys?
> 
> remember when people said .005 was a fair rate? i'd be happy with .0045+ honestly, and *i think that's still ripping us off*.


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## hottakes (Jul 25, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> I won't speak for Elizabeth or Lou, both of whom mentioned that Amazon doesn't owe authors anything.
> 
> But I had the same reaction when reading posts like this one...
> 
> ...


it's called a rhetorical device. i don't know why this thread is getting so derailed.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> Personally, I'm always appreciative in these threads of posts that remind us that Amazon doesn't own authors anything. Otherwise, it's too easy for posts like the following to foment unnecessary outrage and unwarranted accusations.


Amazon owes authors respect. The fact that Amazon pays heavy all-star bonuses each month means they want to keep popular KU authors. IBM failed because of it's arrogance with both suppliers and customers. The same happened to ATT, which came to be hated by everyone. One of the reasons trade publishing is dying is the way they have insulted mid-list authors. Creative people need to be nurtured and encouraged, otherwise you get no superstars. I have had 1 million plus page reads in KU and have sold 77,000+ ebooks for royalties. No sour grapes. I liked KDP from the beginning because I thought it would nurture and encourage new authors. If KDP is now degenerating into a corporate commercial godzilla with the usual godzilla arrogance, maybe the hell with it. Like everyone else, authors popular and not so popular deserve a modicum of respect, and history says that businesses that do not respect people do not survive. IMHO.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> I won't speak for Elizabeth or Lou, both of whom mentioned that Amazon doesn't owe authors anything.
> 
> But I had the same reaction when reading posts like this one...
> 
> ...


It's natural to feel frustrated when the company that is essentially your boss keeps you in the dark on their policies (bonus books--okay or not? They're not. But they're everywhere. Who knows?) and continues dropping your income.

Yes, Amazon isn't technically our boss. We are not employees and we don't have a salary. But, for full-time, KU authors, Amazon is essentially a boss. And it is really, really frustrating having a giant corporation you can't actually communicate with as your boss.

Everyone craves recognition and appreciation for their work. We don't get much in this industry. It's only natural for people to feel frustrated that their de facto boss doesn't seem to appreciate them.

It's not about what's owed. We're all people with feelings. Experiencing emotion isn't the same as making emotional decisions.

Are we owed something? I'd say we are owed certain things (professionalism, clear guidelines, accurate page counting and sales reports, on-time payment) but not others (a certain borrow rate). Are we owed respect? Well, that goes a lot deeper than the Amazon - Indie Author relationship. IMO, everyone is owed respect in a business relationship. And that is one thing that factors in my decisions, because I don't trust people/companies who don't respect me.


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> I won't speak for Elizabeth or Lou, both of whom mentioned that Amazon doesn't owe authors anything.


Again, to me it isn't the rate. Amazon doesn't owe me $.005 per page read, or $.003.

But I would appreciate them showing me a level of respect that would preclude the gimmicky way they go about setting the rate. I don't see why they can't announce a rate a few months in advance and let people choose based on it. They've basically flopped off the risks in their model on the authors, while they decide all the inputs that bear on it. Is there any other business contract any of you have agreed to where you aren't even given the criteria on which a payment will be set? The closest analogy I can think of is sharecropping, where the sharecropper was forced to sell to the landlord at the rate he named.

I certainly don't mean this as an attack on anyone who sticks with KU. I'm just voicing my personal feelings. If I was making real money off of KU I'd probably swallow that and go along. But my lack of success in sales provides me the luxury of cosseting my pride. 

And I certainly didn't mean to disparage KU readers, romance writers, or anyone else. My point was simply that some readers are going to find KU a much better deal than others, and since borrows--even borrows by people who don't read more than a page--count as sales, the Kindle store's lists, also-boughts, etc, will be skewed toward the types of books those people read. It's not good or bad, right or wrong, fair or unfair.

I think we all wish each other the best, whatever choices we make. Maybe we should just remember that when we read someone else's post. Their frustrations aren't aimed at you.


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## UK1783 (Aug 5, 2017)

I know this is bad news for established writers but for me the above comments are a very indication. Amazon could not give less of a fuck for writers. When I publish - two books pretty much at the same time - I shall go across the board on  all or most platforms.  KU seems like a shitty option now.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> I won't speak for Elizabeth or Lou, both of whom mentioned that Amazon doesn't owe authors anything.
> 
> But I had the same reaction when reading posts like this one...
> 
> It sounds emotional. It sounds like you're taking personal offense at something Amazon has done. And that can only happen if you believe you're owed something (respect, revenue, etc.) that is being purposefully withheld from you.


And you deliberately omitted the part where I discussed that it is irrational to be emotional - because emotions are by their nature irrational.

It is a business relationship. That doesn't mean we are able to totally turn off our emotions. "that can only happen if you believe you're owed something (respect, revenue, etc.) that is being purposefully withheld from you." *WRONG*. Emotions are called _emotion_s rather than thinking because they are irrational. They have nothing to do with what one thinks and believes and everything to do with feelings. I know someone whose condo was destroyed during Hurricane Irma. He cursed the storm in the most personal terms possible. That did not mean that he thought that the weather _owed_ him something.

My decision to leave KU which I made a month ago was based on business consideration but that doesn't mean that being a human being rather than a robot that I didn't have some strong emotions in the process.

Your attempts, along with some others, to shut down discussion and condemn those of us discussing it are rude and unproductive.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Crystal_ said:


> Are we owed something? I'd say we are owed certain things (professionalism, clear guidelines, accurate page counting and sales reports, on-time payment) but not others (a certain borrow rate). Are we owed respect? Well, that goes a lot deeper than the Amazon - Indie Author relationship. IMO, everyone is owed respect in a business relationship. And that is one thing that factors in my decisions, because I don't trust people/companies who don't respect me.


this 100%. All "healthy" business relationships are founded on respect and honesty (no different than personal relationships).

Unhealthy relationships often are founded on never admitting guilt, always working situations to your personal advantage, and demeaning the other party just because you can.

Everyone will have to make up their own minds whether KU is a healthy or unhealthy relationship.

I like zon when it comes to the main store and selling direct (I think it's a very healthy relationship and their behavior is very professional and respectful). They are great! KU? Not so much.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2017)

Concerning getting emotional about KDP/KU: If authors, especially new authors, don't get respect and feel their talent is exploited by commerce, that's like ripping their guts out. Authors do have emotions---they are not zombies. Writing fiction is an art. I took as a username a name derived from the name of an artist who had his guts ripped out by lack of respect. You can see his pain in his paintings. The trouble with booksellers and art dealers is that most haven't been there. They don't know. Many corporate managers who sell books should be selling shoes and not books.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

So...

The whole argument about KU3 drops in reads being made up for by an increase in the payout rate....

NUKED

No surprise here, and I feel my decision to pull out of KU was justified.

KU is broken. Somewhere between 30 and 50% of genuine reads are not being counted and paid for, and the rate continues to remain really low.

A lot of us dropped 30+% of reads overnight, lost 30% of our income overnight, and it WASN'T offset by a higher rate.

I'm 16 days into being wide now. Getting traction in the other stores is really difficult without a Bookbub, but I'm working on it.

In the meantime, my average days sales did 2 things. It tripled, and became stable. Money wise I'm down, but not enough for me to be pulling hair out.

The most surprising thing was the stability of sales. For the last 18 months or more, my sales have been like a sine curve. Good day, horrible day, bad day, better day, good day, rinse and repeat. While reads were a steady slightly down line after each release. Now, my sales do spike, but the trend is much more stable.

I'm beginning to agree with those who say Amazon are progressing towards KU payouts being equivalent to the 35% royalty. Sorry Amazon, I'm not sticking around to see you do that.

KU is broken, and I'm not going to sit here and be screwed by Amazon just because they dont want to solve the scammer problems. KU3 did nothing to solve anything, but deliberately hit genuine authors in the guts. I for one, am not putting up with it.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

http://rogerpacker.com/kindle-unlimited-kenp-rate-for-july-sinks-to-0-0040-despite-kdp-fund-hitting-19-million-record/

The US KENP payout figures since KENP v2.0 was introduced are:
2016

February: $0.0047
March: $0.0047
April: $0.0048
May: $0.0046
June: $0.0049
July: $0.0048
August: $0.0045
September: $0.0049
October: $0.0052
November: $0.0053
December: $0.0052

2017

January: $0.0047
February: $0.0049
March: $0.0046
April: $0.0045
May: $0.0043
June: $0.0042
July: $0.0040
August: $0.0042

The monthly KDP Select global fund totals since KENP v2.0 was introduced are:

2016

February: $14 million
March: $14.9 million
April: $14.9 million
May: $15.3 million
June: $15.4 million
July: $15.5 million
August: $15.8 million
September: $15.9 million
October: $16.2 million
November: $16.3 million
December: $16.8 million

2017

January: $17.8 million
February: $16.8 million
March: $17.7 million
April: $17.8 million
May $17.9 million
June $18 million
July: $19 million
August: $19.4 million


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

VEVO said:


> The US KENP payout figures since KENP v2.0 was introduced are:
> 2016


So if my math is right the pot (so one would assume subscribers) has grown by 40% and payouts have declined 10%.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I suppose where I come up against the roadblock when people talk about "respect" is--at what store are you seeing more of this respect? Barnes & Noble couldn't be more wonky. Recently they removed erotica writers' entire catalogs and made them jump through some hoops to put them back. Talk about solving a problem with a hammer. Google Play does weird pricing things at whim. Kobo and iBooks do offer some individual attention, but there are, I believe, two? three? individuals providing it at iBooks despite Apple's size, and the search in their store, their attention to their book-publishing business . . . 

And then you get into the whole traditional-publishing deal, where the "respect" is very much absent. Like it or not, this is pretty much publishing as it has always been. The only way to get individual respect/attention is to sell very, VERY well. Nora Roberts gets respect. And some places are better than others. Audible/ACX are really good at this. KDP not as much. (But then, the number of ACX vs KDP authors . . . it's orders of magnitude. On the other hand, Amazon Crossing isn't great at the personal touch, and they're dealing with smaller numbers. Sometimes it's as simple as the person at the top, I suspect.) 

I understand having emotions. But as others have said, it's ultimately a business decision about your own best course, and the more you let "unfairness" or "respect" influence it, the more that'll get in the way of making your most rational choice. I'd say, feel your feelings and then evaluate. You're never going to get to choose how publishing should operate. You can only chart your own course and adapt to the changes.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> You're never going to get to choose how publishing should operate. You can only chart your own course and adapt to the changes.


That's very true. But some of the other arts have guilds that help. There is an author's guild and a screenwriters guild and an actors guild and so on, and one of the big problems with KDP/KU is that there is no transparency, and the information authors need to chart their own course and adapt is not available from Amazon, and there is no machinery like a gulld to protect Amazon authors from abusive exploitation. It seems to me the idea that each author should fend for himself is not the best solution to the current problem. Sales go down or up and Amazon says nothing about why or when. No information apparently because the execs have forbidden giving out information. My firm belief is that attitude will eventually destroy KDP. Okay, fine. Another example of corporate darwinism. Let's hope there will be other platforms to nurture and encourage new authors. At the moment the outlook is grim because KDP has no substantial competition for all authors and genres, which makes Amazon indeed a godzilla.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> So if my math is right the pot (so one would assume subscribers) has grown by 40% and payouts have declined 10%.


Which means there's a lot more books/authors/pages to divide the pot between. If we're keeping it simple and pot divided by pages equals payout. Bigger pot, smaller payout means lots more pages being read, either by man or machine. Plus lots of readers aren't paying into the pot, since their subscriptions are free for years with various promos like Prime day.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> That's very true. But some of the other arts have guilds that help. There is an author's guild and a screenwriters guild and an actors guild and so on, and one of the big problems with KDP/KU is that there is no transparency, and the information authors need to chart their own course and adapt is not available from Amazon, and there is no machinery like a gulld to protect Amazon authors from abusive exploitation. It seems to me the idea that each author should fend for himself is not the best solution to the current problem. Sales go down or up and Amazon says nothing about why or when. No information apparently because the execs have forbidden giving out information. My firm belief is that attitude will eventually destroy KDP. Okay, fine. Another example of corporate darwinism. Let's hope there will be other platforms to nurture and encourage new authors. At the moment the outlook is griim because KDP has no substantial competition for all authors and genres, which makes Amazon indeed a godzilla.


As has been said here many times, those "guilds" are completely different, because they're for people who are EMPLOYED, either as employees or contractors, by an employer--a studio, a magazine, whatever. Novelists are not employed, whether they're traditionally or independently published. We are supplying a product to a distribution company, in exactly the same way that the makers of light switches sell their products on Amazon. (And to reiterate something that's also been explained before--any such attempt by authors to set prices, restrict supply, etc., would be both illegal in the United States (that's a cartel) and futile (your restriction is a non-cartel member's opportunity, unless you have a cartel with power to sanction individuals who deviate from the cartel's desires).

I don't know. So far, Amazon is winning--over the other stores, over traditional publishers. If it's Darwinism, it's running in the other direction.

Back in 2015? I think it was, Russell Blake had a post on his blog about how he foresaw the indie landscape becoming much more competitive, and a shakeup coming. His point was that indies needed to up their game, because it wasn't 2011 anymore. That professional levels of covers, writing, editing, formatting were all necessary to compete, or you'd be shaken out. Yes, the scamming, botting, stuffing, gaming of KU is an additional factor that hasn't helped one bit, but I think Russell's predictions were pretty much right on. A lot of people saw indie publishing as a get-rich-quick opportunity and jumped in. The number of titles (supply) has grown immensely, with no corresponding increase in the number of buyers (demand). That's going to result in a shakeout every time.

I'm not excusing Amazon. Their inability/unwillingness to deal with the garbage stuff is directly detrimental to my bottom line, personally. But I think it's important to look at it clearly instead of just saying that Amazon is the Bad Guy. Diverts attention from what's important--what do YOU do to compete in this marketplace?


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

An analogy about heat and kitchens springs to mind. Abusive exploitation? I'm trying to sell books I write about dragons and vampires, this ain't exactly the salt mines.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> As has been said here many times, those "guilds" are completely different, because they're for people who are EMPLOYED, either as employees or contractors, by an employer...


Well, I'm a member of the Authors Guild (which I think is still only for trade/print) and I have never been an "employee" of a publishing house. A royalty contract does not make you an employee.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Well, I'm a member of the Authors Guild (which I think is still only for trade/print) and I have never been an "employee" of a publishing house. A royalty contract does not make you an employee.


You're right about that. There are also many professional organizations such as SFWA and RWA. Perhaps folks want to lobby their professional organization to intervene with Amazon, but as far as I know, that's only been done for individual issues with plagiarism and so forth, not regarding Amazon's KU page rate. I'm not sure what an organization of professional authors would do about that. They're not going to arrange a boycott (because illegal). Basically you get a choice to participate in KU or not, much like tradpubbed authors have a choice to go indie or hybrid or stay trad.

Publishing changes. It's been changing fast for ten years, including in things like legal publishing and educational publishing, both of which I used to work in. Companies have adapted, been bought out, gone under . . . all sorts of results. Mainly due to the advent of e-publishing. Another suggestion I'd strongly make would be that if you're making good money now, use it to strengthen your financial position. Pay off your debt, don't take on more (bigger house, new car, etc.). Because things will change again. Hopefully they'll be better for you, but they might be worse. This isn't a stable industry.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

So what's the smartest way to play the game with the rules, written and unwritten, that we've got?
KU first is 'easiest.' One vendor, pointed promo. Enjoy the rank boost, fall off the various cliffs, take it wide. That makes wide readers mad, tho. All 3 of them (sorry.) But it's 'harder' to release wide, promo wide, then pull from wide and enter KU when wide sales drop, cause it's harder to make sure you aren't published somewhere obscure plus you've already fallen off the 30/60/90 day cliffs when you get into KU late. 
All wide has its pros and cons. Some series in KU, some wide has its pros and cons. 
Do you treat it like the food court restaurants? Figure out what 'sampler' bites work best in KU and write a few of those to the most logical word count that's not too short but not too long to have that tray of KU story samples available to lure people to the rest of your normal, wide, sales only catalog? Or just make a few permafrees instead and give nothing to tempt people who click the KU box to narrow their search? How does one best use KU as a tool while knowing all the things we know, or think we know, like KU is broken but the other stores suck?
The Wild West days are over. The wives have arrived dragging their what about the children with them, the whorehouses are closing as the churches and schools are being built. A new, more civilized self pub city is building on the ashes of what used to be, so how best should the adapt-or-die crowd go about adapting, do you think?


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Going Incognito said:


> A new, more civilized self pub city is building on the ashes of what used to be, so how best should the adapt-or-die crowd go about adapting, do you think?


oh boy people are not going to like my answer to this 

Honestly, a lot of authors are going to get washed out of this industry. KU is a false hope vehicle. If it didn't exist, how many fewer authors would be out there? A lot less (not talking about kboarders, most of whom will write until they die regardless, but the general sp community as a whole).

And I don't say that from the perspective that I won't get washed out. I've always been very realistic with myself. If I don't hit certain targets, or if the market says I'm not a good writer, well, that's that. I'm not going to waste my life writing 20 books no one will ever read or that no one likes. Maybe if I were 20 I might, but being in my 40's I don't have time to F around.

So I think the crunch is coming where a lot of dreamers are going to be taking a hard look in the mirror and asking themselves whether they are chasing a dream or whether they might actually have what it takes. I suspect a lot of them will have this moment when KU hits .0035 and they realize they are killing themselves for pennies.

At the end of the day, the only strategy that offers a glimmer of hope long-term is being a damn good writer that people like to read.

It's why I posted recently on where pricing is going. I'm optimistic that quality SP writers in the next year or two are going to start breaking away on price and moving up the stack. I think the high-quantity, low-margin bottom of the stack is going to get really ugly.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> oh boy people are not going to like my answer to this
> 
> Honestly, a lot of authors are going to get washed out of this industry. KU is a false hope vehicle. If it didn't exist, how many fewer authors would be out there? A lot less (not talking about kboarders, most of whom will write until they die regardless, but the general sp community as a whole).
> 
> ...


Outing myself here, but this is my best advice, which some people have found useful. "Get off the churn train: writing books that stick." 
http://www.rosalindjames.com/romance-amazon-churn-and-stickiness-writing-books-that-last/

This is quoted in there, but may also be helpful: "How to be hooky."
http://www.rosalindjames.com/how-to-be-hooky/

IMHO, hookiness is Job One. Trad or self-pubbed, if you're a genre writer, hookiness is what it's all about.

(I should note that I've done very well with KU. At this time, I have one series trad, one indie series wide, and three indie series in KU. KU can be great money, and that matters--it gives you flexibility and options. It's also, for me, easier, and that matters too. It's not really KU vs. not--it's building your audience, however you do that.)


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Outing myself here, but this is my best advice, which some people have found useful. "Get off the churn train: writing books that stick."
> http://www.rosalindjames.com/romance-amazon-churn-and-stickiness-writing-books-that-last/
> 
> This is quoted in there, but may also be helpful: "How to be hooky."
> ...


Welcome back. I always loved your posts.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

EllieDee said:


> Oh man, it just keeps getting worse!


 Isn't this up on last month? I thought last month was only .0040 so there is a slight improvement.


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## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

No improvement. Not even slight when you factor in the 10-30% page losses most authors are reporting with KU 3. Nobody wins. Scammers and real authors are both taking a huge pay cut.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> Isn't this up on last month? I thought last month was only .0040 so there is a slight improvement.





Phxsundog said:


> No improvement. Not even slight when you factor in the 10-30% page losses most authors are reporting with KU 3. Nobody wins. Scammers and real authors are both taking a huge pay cut.


This.

Its KU2.5 all over again. Do something which drops your pages read by 30+% and keep the rate marginally unchanged.

This is the second time Amazon have done this. Different each time, but the same result. 30+% down!

Give it another year, and they will find another way of doing a 30% drop in page reads, and the rate will be 20-30% down again as well.

Edit: The first time when they reduced the KENPC on each book, I was on a high at the time, and wasn't really concerned about the drop. This time, I was on a low, and this time I could see exactly where I was being hit.

Those doing really well out of KU at the moment, probably can't see what happened. I didn't last time. I did this time. Maybe its your turn next time.

And there will be a next time. Nobody engineers the same thing twice without having a third time up their sleeve.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I didn't lose any KENPC either time. I've never optimized for KENPC either, though, so I lost out when other people did so, of course.  

I understand that the book stuffing isn't working anymore with the new changes, so that is positive. However, the writers are still stuffing despite Amazon saying that's not OK, which is annoying. 

I'm not all in with anything. But nothing is black and white.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

VEVO said:


> http://rogerpacker.com/kindle-unlimited-kenp-rate-for-july-sinks-to-0-0040-despite-kdp-fund-hitting-19-million-record/
> 
> The US KENP payout figures since KENP v2.0 was introduced are:
> 2016
> ...


Never under 0.0045 since KU2 started (except that odd January right before this list starts in Feb) and then under it every month from May on. Even after a second KENPC adjustment and a 'jump to end' fix. Who wants to bet we never see 0.0045 again?


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I didn't lose any KENPC either time. I've never optimized for KENPC either, though, so I lost out when other people did so, of course.


I lost 30% of my KENPC in 2016, and my books were very ordinarily formatted.

I lost more than 30% of my page reads on Aug 2, and I can see the single digit pages where I should be seeing 350-500 pages read.

I dont really care about the mechanism. I've seen 2 30% drops in page reads in a little over a year, because of what Amazon has changed.

I dont have padded books. I dont have links to the back. I dont do anything except normal back matter, which half the time people dont read, and I can see that in the total reads each day.

Amazon cant kick me in the guts twice in a bit over a year, and expect to me to say "thankyou, please do it again." Not this little black duck!

The falling payout has been a worry, but not enough to trigger me into actually thinking about pulling out. But the combination with another 30% drop, this one as close to being a scam as the scammers are running on Amazon, no. I'm out. Page Flip non-payment is Amazon scamming us. Call a spade a spade. They are not hitting me over the head with it again.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

hottakes said:


> NO. none of this "at least the rates up" bullcrap.
> 
> that's how amazon gets away with screwing us: they give us one horrible month, followed by a horrible-but-slightly-less horrible month to get us used to these low awful rates. we start making excuses because we're lazy and oh at least amazon's giving us .0001 cent per page more right guys?
> 
> ...


I'm going to fly WIDE for a while. After my third book is finished I'll finally do my first advertising push and we will see what we see.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Your attempts, along with some others, to shut down discussion and condemn those of us discussing it are rude and unproductive.


It's always like this. Usually the same few folks who sit back and pronounce those of us with worries about the future as being emotional, un-businesslike, or whatever putdown du jour. We supposedly whine about what we're "owed", though no one expects rainbows and ponies. Some of us were hoping that the new world of publishing would see authors treated with a small measure of respect and appreciation. Turns out, we hoped in vain. So, sue us.

I'd like to be respected as someone who's doing the right thing, not scamming, not botting, not doing anything against TOS, but instead I'm watching people use every trick in the book get bonuses and at most are only being issued an off-hand warning to be good little boys and girls. Which is ignored as the crooked business goes on, and on, and on.

It does seems to be an interesting point that now that the long form authors are seeing the bite of KU adjustments, it's a different game. So long as it was erotica writers and short story writers in general, it was all put downs and disrespect, but now? Oh, people are feeling the burn. Suddenly we're all in this together! Yeah, right.

KU is never going to go back to what it was. Amazon is squeezing, trying to see who will stick. I suspect at some point there's going to be a massive upheaval in the program, and Select might end up curated and by invitation only. Which it probably should have been in the first place. Oops. Indie authors do make for building good business though. It's just now there are too many of them, and most of them aren't that great in the writing department, so time to start pushing them out. Except, things are backwards. You can't keep the good to decent ones in if you push too hard, and a lot of the bad ones are clueless about how things work, so they're still flocking to the program.

My magic mirror is saying KUv4 is coming, and it probably won't wait until next summer. So, make plans, figure out what you want to do in this business, and find a way to do it (ethically would be best, but your call). Wide or exclusive, it doesn't matter to anyone else. What works for you is your path. Only you can figure it out, and only you can make it work. There's no checklist that works for everybody.

{NOTE: general "you", not anyone particular.}


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## UK1783 (Aug 5, 2017)

Surely there must be a very large tech corp that has noticed this fatal flaw in Amazon's business plan in terms of KU, and is planning a massive takeover in terms of a KU model that works very well for hardworking authors?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Going Incognito said:


> Which means there's a lot more books/authors/pages to divide the pot between. If we're keeping it simple and pot divided by pages equals payout. Bigger pot, smaller payout means lots more pages being read, either by man or machine. Plus lots of readers aren't paying into the pot, since their subscriptions are free for years with various promos like Prime day.


I keep seeing this here and there and I don't know why. It is not true. There is no such thing as a free subscription for years. Not on prime day, not on any other day. Prime day has sales, which is what my plan is. You prepay for 6 months, 1 year or 2 years for a discount, not free. Only "free" is the free trial for 30 days for new customers of KU. You can only use that once. If you cancel and sign back up, you don't get it. I know this because I did this. Just like I know there aren't any free subscriptions for years on prime day as I paid for my prime day sub.

They had a few deals like over a year ago where you bought a specific device and you got a discounted subscription of 6 months with it. Again, discounted, not free.

If you know something I don't about how to get years worth of free KU subscriptions, please kindle point me to it. I would love to have that.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

There's always a lot of doom and gloom on these threads, which I understand when income is at stake, but I have to say...scammers aside (and obviously they are a real problem) doesn't the page reads drop coincide with the recent huge giveaway of free or discounted KU memberships? There was a free-for-three-months thing recently on like Groupon or something, right, and then discounted KU subs during Prime Day? I got mine for like, 40% for the next two years...

My page reads have been ginormous in the last couple of months. It's a much larger proportion of my income than it was last fall. To me that says more readers, but if they paid, say, 20% less for their subscriptions on average... 

And my page counts actually went UP by 20% under KU3.

(With that said, I am still taking Jaclyn Dolamore wide. I've always wanted to. Those books are kind of quirky and a lot of fantasy seems to do well wide, so it's worth making the leap.)


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Atunah said:


> I keep seeing this here and there and I don't know why. It is not true. There is no such thing as a free subscription for years. Not on prime day, not on any other day. Prime day has sales, which is what my plan is. You prepay for 6 months, 1 year or 2 years for a discount, not free. Only "free" is the free trial for 30 days for new customers of KU. You can only use that once. If you cancel and sign back up, you don't get it. I know this because I did this. Just like I know there aren't any free subscriptions for years on prime day as I paid for my prime day sub.
> 
> They had a few deals like over a year ago where you bought a specific device and you got a discounted subscription of 6 months with it. Again, discounted, not free.
> 
> If you know something I don't about how to get years worth of free KU subscriptions, please kindle point me to it. I would love to have that.


I don't know about free subscriptions, but I think (stress _think_) that this individual was referring to the botters who have thousands of credit cards and Amazon accounts. They start KU subscriptions, keep them for thirty days and read a ton of pages, and then close them before they have to pay. Then they start again on a 30-day free trial, do the same thing, and then dump the account again. Basically that means that thousands of "free" accounts are getting through, who just happen to be the heaviest readers, and no one is ever paying for those accounts so it's not adding to the pot.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JRTomlin said:


> Your attempts, along with some others, to shut down discussion and condemn those of us discussing it are rude and unproductive.


You asked (Elizabeth) when anyone in this thread had said that Amazon owed them anything. You then asserted that such a claim was a strawman argument.

I expressed my perspective: I too got the feeling that folks were saying Amazon owed them something. I included two posts that corroborated that perspective.

It was just my opinion. I was responding to a question you posed. I was offering my personal view on the matter.

For that, you accuse me of attempting to shut down discussion. That's entirely false.

You also call such posts rude and unproductive. I disagree.

All of us are just expressing our opinions. You expressed yours (in _several_ posts). I expressed mine (in _one_ post).

My opinion doesn't conform to yours, and *I'm* accused of being rude and proactively trying to shut down discussion?


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

UK1783 said:


> Surely there must be a very large tech corp that has noticed this fatal flaw in Amazon's business plan in terms of KU, and is planning a massive takeover in terms of a KU model that works very well for hardworking authors?


Subscription-based reading is a losing prospect. I don't think any tech company wants to dive into the morass of monetary loss just to "compete."

If I were a CEO of an Amazon competitor, I would simply ignore competing with KU. It will fail under its own weight, because the system is being scammed.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Outing myself here.


So glad to see you still hang out around here. I've missed your wisdom. Sometimes I agree; sometimes I don't. However, you always present a logical train of thought that makes me think and evaluate my own opinions. I might add that I hope you're not the only one. Many other silent voices are also missed. You all have so much to contribute.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't know about free subscriptions, but I think (stress _think_) that this individual was referring to the botters who have thousands of credit cards and Amazon accounts. They start KU subscriptions, keep them for thirty days and read a ton of pages, and then close them before they have to pay. Then they start again on a 30-day free trial, do the same thing, and then dump the account again. Basically that means that thousands of "free" accounts are getting through, who just happen to be the heaviest readers, and no one is ever paying for those accounts so it's not adding to the pot.


Well he said readers, I don't really consider scammers readers.  He also said that they are getting free subs on prime day. Don't think the botters care what day they get the 30 days free. So yes, those scammer accounts are an issue, but it didn't sound like that was what was meant with the prime day deals. I got discounted KU subs on the last 2 prime days, but there were certainly not free. Its a lot of money up front and one has to have trust in the program being around that long.

Its just that I have seen this here before, talk about these free subscriptions on prime day. I would know as readers would plaster that info everywhere if there was such a thing. . But I happily pay because I want it to stay around. But as its with majority of readers, we aren't a either or. We aren't just reading KU books and never buy anything. Most of us do all of the options. Its a mix. But book budget as it is, KU comes in handy to fill in. I bought three 4.99-5.99 books this month and blew my budget. I don't just read 3 books of course so books have to come from other places. KU I pay for, I can just grab some from the library without any out of pocket.

As long as I have books to read with KU, I keep the sub. So far my wishlists are still all there, nobody has dropped out on there in the last 6 or more months. I see others come in so I am still adding books to my wishlists.
I still buy books in any case, I just can't buy all the books I read for as much as I read.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2017)

she-la-ti-da said:


> It's always like this. Usually the same few folks who sit back and pronounce those of us with worries about the future as being emotional, un-businesslike, or whatever putdown du jour. We supposedly whine about what we're "owed", though no one expects rainbows and ponies. Some of us were hoping that the new world of publishing would see authors treated with a small measure of respect and appreciation. Turns out, we hoped in vain. So, sue us.
> 
> I'd like to be respected as someone who's doing the right thing, not scamming, not botting, not doing anything against TOS, but instead I'm watching people use every trick in the book get bonuses and at most are only being issued an off-hand warning to be good little boys and girls. Which is ignored as the crooked business goes on, and on, and on.
> 
> ...


Yes to all of it. These are wise words.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

she-la-ti-da said:


> KU is never going to go back to what it was. Amazon is squeezing, trying to see who will stick. I suspect at some point there's going to be a massive upheaval in the program, and Select might end up curated and by invitation only. Which it probably should have been in the first place.


I think I got booed for saying this in another thread a long time ago, but some kind of minimum curation would stop at least some kinds of scams. Amazon is so obsessed with bragging about the number of titles that are in KU, but I would think readers would prefer 200,000 books that have been through quality control to over a million that haven't. It would mean that authors might have to wait for a short time before getting into KU, but it might be worth it--for them and everyone else--in the long run.

Amazon clearly wants to run a system with virtually no human intervention, and it has proved it can't be done well. If it doesn't invest more in the program than it has, it's pretty clear it will collapse eventually.

No, I don't think Amazon owes us a living, but I do think it owes us what any vendor could reasonably expect: accurate payment. We might quibble over whether its responsibilities extend beyond that, but they certainly are responsible for at least that much.


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

UK1783 said:


> Surely there must be a very large tech corp that has noticed this fatal flaw in Amazon's business plan in terms of KU, and is planning a massive takeover in terms of a KU model that works very well for hardworking authors?


I agree. The business opportunity for digital books remains ripe. For the life of me, I can't imagine why one of the larger tech companies or online vendors -- Google, Microsoft, Walmart, Sony, Target or even one of the big publishing houses -- don't buy out Barnes and Noble just for their digital publishing arm. The overhead on digital books is cheap, it's a magnet into their other online ecosystems (movies, games, and music), and would bolster their core businesses.

As far as KU3, I think those books that readers skim through suffered most with the recent changes. For some, that loss of page reads coupled with the lower rate is a toxic combination. Last month was my worst for KU (although this is also due to the fact that I haven't published in 18 months as I finish a trilogy). That said, I think Amazon is now starting to manipulate KU not only to increase their profit -- squeeze as much as you can like any business -- but also as a way to use an algorithm to elevate the most engaging books (e.g. Most Read List). As a reader, I'm glad to see this considering that we otherwise have to wade through millions of books to find a few gems.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Atunah said:


> Well he said readers, I don't really consider scammers readers.  He also said that they are getting free subs on prime day. Don't think the botters care what day they get the 30 days free. So yes, those scammer accounts are an issue, but it didn't sound like that was what was meant with the prime day deals. I got discounted KU subs on the last 2 prime days, but there were certainly not free. Its a lot of money up front and one has to have trust in the program being around that long.


It just seems to me like Amazon has been promoting KU way more this year.

--On Prime Day, six months of KU was about 25% off. A two year subcription was 40% off.
--Currently my American Express card is touting 30% a year subscription, at the top of their highlighted deals when I check my balance.
--In March, Groupon offered two months for free.
--This summer, there was a "buy a Paperwhite, get 6 months of KU for free" deal.

All of these deals, as far as I know, are open to current subscribers. So I think there is a legit question of, how many long term KU subscribers jumped on these deals, knocking their buy-in down by 25-40% for anywhere from the next six months to two years?


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## Bob Stewart (Mar 19, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I suppose where I come up against the roadblock when people talk about "respect" is--at what store are you seeing more of this respect? ...
> 
> And then you get into the whole traditional-publishing deal, where the "respect" is very much absent...
> 
> ...You're never going to get to choose how publishing should operate. You can only chart your own course and adapt to the changes.


Generally, I agree with you. But the problems with the other sites are mostly ones of competence. And as bad as the terms might be in a traditional-publishing deal, do they ever ask you to agree to a royalty without even knowing the formula used to arrive at it?

The equivalent would be, "Each month we'll set aside x amount to be paid out in royalties (the exact amount to be determined by us based on our own business needs). Then we will divide this among all the copies of all the books sold (except some better selling authors will get a larger share based on criteria we will decide)."

Who would agree to that?

The level of the payout is, of course, neither fair or unfair. The opaque methodology most certainly leaves something to be desired.

At this point, with all the data they must have, there would be very little risk to Amazon to just set a rate and stick to it. If they need to change it down the road, just give people ample notice.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Amazon, like other tech giants, invests heavily in AI and machine learning. We're still in the early stages of those systems and we're on the front lines of experiencing their growing pains, i.e. scammers getting away with rampant scamming and the negative repercussions that has on our businesses. The good news is AI and machine learning improves all the time, some might even say it is improving at an exponential rate. 


Amazon's preference for AI over warm bodies means that as the technology improves (and it will, as it always does) their ability to rein in the scams will also improve. Yes, there will be those who will still manage to circumvent and scam in nearly any environment, but I don't believe the numbers of scammers overall will increase but rather will reach its apex and then decline as algorithms improve and things tighten. 


This machine-led tightening of systems effectively forms a gate or barrier to entry that should benefit most/all KU participants. I do believe as these systems improve the KU payout will likewise reach an equilibrium. The rate may be a bit higher than it is now and stabilize there, or it may go a bit lower and stabilize, either way I believe that stability will be reached and maintained for a not inconsiderable length of time.


However, we're not there yet, so, I do think it means we'll continue to feel the growing pains in the near term with scammers, page flip and the like. Just as we'll constantly be hearing 'the end is nigh' messages from the doomsayers who see numbers trending lower, scammers rising higher and who then make the assumption that where we are is where we're going and that nothing but trouble lies ahead. But again, in my opinion, the end is not nigh, a negative trend does not carry on forever, where we are is a small moment in a vast ocean of time and I think the systems overall will get better.


All of that to say I think patience, if you can afford it, is helpful. I believe KU as a program will improve, we just have to weather the storm, but we'll get there. Of course, there's no saying you have to stick with it either, there are other options. I just think in the grand scheme KU will prove to be a net positive for indies (some already feel that it is) and then some. And no, I don't work for Amazon.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2017)

I think there are 5 fundamental questions

1) Is there any evidence that suggests books will end up at a different end state than games, apps, movies, music?
In most other digital markets everything is ruled by free and cheap

Books we don't have indie authors with free books as marketing and $1 to $5 books dominating everything. Why not? Is this a factor of the Books Market being completely different from other digital markets, or is it simply a factor of established publishing companies having all their fingers and toes in the **** and holding off the ocean?

Same for ebooks supposedly stuck at 30% market share. Is that a function of actual market being that? Or is it that all the low priced and free ebooks are hidden (for the most part) in the stores and most of the Big 5 Publishers have ebooks priced at or near paperback prices?

Perhaps there is no 'big opportunity' for a new entrant because there is no dream state of ebooks being sold for $10 and the store excluding everyone else and giving authors $3.50 and making $6.50 (remember, that was the original model - $9.99 books and 65% for the store - Apple upended that with its 70% to authors model)

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that that model ($6.50 per ebook sale to the store) or even a model of $3 per ebook sales to the store) is now a dream. $10 ebooks are not going to be the end state

*************

2) Is there any evidence that a subscription model can be viable?

We don't know if Kindle Unlimited is actually profitable
We do know that Oyster got bought by Google and closed down
We don't know if Scribd's subscription service is profitable

So, even if we were to magically iron out all the issues with a subscription model, and arrive at a 100% honest attribution model, would that service be sustainable financially? Or does such a service, by its very nature, become something that can survive only if the content providers (authors) keep getting squeezed more and more

It is very telling that no one else is jumping into making a subscription service. We are all assuming it's because most tech companies are not interested in books. What if there is a different reason i.e. most tech companies have done their feasibility analysis and found that such a service can't be sustainable

***********

3) All the assumptions that digital books is a great market for tech companies to get into make the assumption that ebooks will end up in a state other than 'free and very cheap'

If we look at all the data points that are not 'controlled' or 'influenced' then interest in free books is 50 times more than interest in deals ($0.99) and that is 10 to 30 times more than interest in full price books

So, is it still an 'Opportunity' if everything ends up at $0 and $0.99 and $2.99

Regarding This:
***
I agree. The business opportunity for digital books remains ripe. For the life of me, I can't imagine why one of the larger tech companies or online vendors -- Google, Microsoft, Walmart, Sony, Target or even one of the big publishing houses -- don't buy out Barnes and Noble just for their digital publishing arm. The overhead on digital books is cheap, it's a magnet into their other online ecosystems (movies, games, and music), and would bolster their core businesses. 
***

The magnet into their online ecosystems part is true. However, magnet for WHAT TYPE OF CUSTOMERS? If ebooks end up at $0 and $0.99, then how does that help Google or Apple opr Microsoft or Sony. WalMart might still be interested. However, only Amazon and WalMart are interested in those value-seeking customers

Also, apart from Amazon and WalMart most of the companies don't have any 'online mall' of millions of goods to sell those customers. so a magnet into what? Microsoft makes most of its money from Office and Windows and Apple from iPhone. How does 'free and cheap books' help that?

*********************

4) Is a subscription model just a means to head-off an inevitable shift to free and cheap?

Perhaps everyone who has the actual data on trends sees that everything is shifting to $0 books as marketing (replacing $5,000 and $10,000 ads from Big 5 Publishers) and $0.99 to $2.99 books as sales (replacing $5 to $20 ebooks and paperbacks)

And a subscription model is their means to avoid that end state. It's not that a subscription model is sustainable, it's that a subscription model is their only hope of completely losing all control of what gets seen and what gets bought

**************************

5) how fast are indie authors evolving? how fast are ebook stores evolving? How fast are Publishers evolving?

It's a bit of a race between mammals (indie authors), small dinosaurs (ebook stores and small publishers) and large dinosaurs (big publishers)

There is no model in which the dinosaurs can survive if ebooks become $0 as marketing and $0.99 to $2.99 for sales. Absolutely none. Not only the big dinosaurs will die out

So the question becomes - how can the dinosaurs ward off the mammals?

let's consider a few ways

a) hide low priced books in ebook stores
b) hide low priced books from search results and bestseller lists
c) hide free books and/or pull the levers to reduce their ability to work as marketing tools
d) cut off the channels that allow indie authors to promote free and cheap books
e) create a narrative that ebooks are stalled and/or static to try and make indie authros believe they have hit a wall
f) create a model where statistics and figures and control is with dinosaurs, although content is provided by indies (which, interestingly a subscription model can achieve)
g) start snapping up all the most promising indie talent
h) create 'obscurity' by having so many options and such low 'filtering' that it's hard to find good indie authors
i) attacking the tactics that work best for indies (box sets, serials, free as marketing, etc.)

the list goes on
Are some of these already being used? Perhaps
Are many of these being used? Who knows? 
****************************

My 5 Predictions are (predictions, not what I wish were to happen)

1) eBooks end up like other digital content with $0 used as marketing and vast majority of sales (both in figures and revenue) being $0.99 to $2.99 books

2) Subscription models are not viable and within 2 to 4 years there is none left (well, for all practical intents and purposes, there is just one)

3) Tech companies only enter the market after it breaks down. If readers want cheap and free and indie authors are providing cheap and free, then the dams break down sooner or later
WalMart is the obvious candidate as it can get a lot of Amazon customers by catering to Kindle owners. Look for WalMart to acquire a lot of the book discovery and author services companies (especially the smaller, fast growing ones). However, all this activity will start only after it becomes clear the market is breaking

4) The whole attempt that

instead of free and cheap

readers will choose a subscription model

breaks down. In some ways it is already breaking down as we see that a subscription model cannot provide enough money to make it worthwhile for quite a larger percentage of authors with good books (that would sell even without a subscription model)

5) indie authors will, sooner or later, eat the dinosaurs alive. (they might even end up hurting each other in a race to low prices, however, that's an entirely different matter)

Let's think about the 'innovations' the existing gatekeepers have come up with in 2007 to 2017

- a subscription model
- hiding free and cheap books
- pretending ebooks have stopped growing

Versus what have indie authors achieved in the same time period

- sustainable models that work with $0 for marketing and $1 to $5 for sales
- box sets
- serials
- first in series free
- taken over entire genres (romance)
- created new viable genres

there are also a LOT of things that I can't talk about
however, the signs are there to see for anyone who looks at it as - Dinosaurs trying to avoid getting eaten alive by mammals, instead of buying into all the namby-pamby storylines

It's a hopeless battle for the dinosaurs because the further they take readers away from what they want (high quality, reasonably priced/low priced books from indies) the more they break their own market

A subscription model might perhaps counter 'free and cheap'. However, it requires convincing both readers and authors that it's better than 'free and cheap'

And we are beginning to see that it's not working for authors
at which point books start getting pulled, and it stops working for readers

Even if no books are pulled, the prices keep going down (earnings) and the model falls under its own weight. Just the costs of running it (maintenance, hardware, software, delivery, etc.) at some point might make it unsustainable even if authors keep being OK with lower and lower prices

Remember, there are some models in which EVERYONE loses out. You might create a Tragedy of the Commons model and have control and ownership. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it is profitable for you, or even sustainable or viable. You might be better off having a model where you don't have control and you don't do a Tragedy of the Commons and instead let everyone flourish

If readers are all gravitating towards free and cheap, then figure out a way to make that profitable, instead of trying to brainwash them into going with either

Expensive and More Expensive
or
Subscription

************************

the market is breaking in multiple ways
Some people want control
Some want profits
Some just want to make a living

with all these forces fighting each other, we're in for a very spectacular 'break'
What will emerge when that happens, that's anyone's guess

However, in the end the market gets what it is demanding, which in this case is high quality books at low and reasonable prices and also for free


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

JaclynDolamore said:


> It just seems to me like Amazon has been promoting KU way more this year.
> 
> --On Prime Day, six months of KU was about 25% off. A two year subcription was 40% off.
> --Currently my American Express card is touting 30% a year subscription, at the top of their highlighted deals when I check my balance.
> ...


True, they have been promoting it. Prime day especially, which makes sense since we want good deals on that day. 

But aren't those the kind of readers you want in the program? Those like me that are willing to put down a good chunk of money upfront. We tend to be "serious" readers, as suppose to the 30 day free riders. We tend to read a lot, buy a lot, borrow a lot, talk a lot about the books we read and are more often fans. Reader areas I hang out, where we talk about KU books and non KU books is where we also share getting those multi month, multi year subscriptions.

Casual readers aren't going to go all in for prepaying something 2 years. I did the 2 year on prime day in 2015 and I did the 1 year this year. Mainly because it was a tighter time so I couldn't shell out for the 2 year.

Maybe that is why they keep putting out those promos. They want readers like us in the program. Dedicated readers that share among other readers. Its those kind of readers that make authors be big time authors.

That isn't to say there aren't some taking advantage of the free trials, but they'll have to fix the scammer thing to make that go away. Or just not let brand new accounts have free trials. That would solve that issue right then and there. Just like they have a minimum purchase for reviews, they could have that for the free trials. 
Or like I said before, curate KU. Make it a larger prime reading section. That would eliminate the majority of scammers, especially the botting type.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

JaclynDolamore said:


> There's always a lot of doom and gloom on these threads, which I understand when income is at stake, but I have to say...scammers aside (and obviously they are a real problem) doesn't the page reads drop coincide with the recent huge giveaway of free or discounted KU memberships? There was a free-for-three-months thing recently on like Groupon or something, right, and then discounted KU subs during Prime Day? I got mine for like, 40% for the next two years...
> 
> My page reads have been ginormous in the last couple of months. It's a much larger proportion of my income than it was last fall. To me that says more readers, but if they paid, say, 20% less for their subscriptions on average...
> 
> ...


This isn't true for any authors I know. Everyone I've talked to says their pages are much lower this year, these last six months, etc. All the authors I talk to write somewhat sexy romance, which continues to get more crowded, and suffers most from scammers and stuffers.

Personally, I've found writing unique hooky books to be more of a requirement than a sure thing. My stickiness is 90% in the hands of FB ads and the Amazon algos (and maybe a bit of AMS ads). The change in ABs (they point more and more to new books now) has been brutal to my backlist. FB ads don't work as well anymore. I still sell my older books and make some money from them, but it's not really as much as it used to be, and it's all out of my control. I do wonder if I'll have more control with wide and permafree (and ads to said permafree), but I haven't tested it yet.

The series I'm writing atm is a better fit for the KU audience than wide, so I'll be putting it in KU and testjng some new release strategies. Once I go wide, I want to stay wide for a long time, so it's not something I'm going to do lightly.

There are a lot of factors in the decision beyond straight cash and the borrow rate. They're different for everyone. Some people prefer the easiness of KU. Others perfect the diversification of wide. The zig zag of the borrow rate and the inability to track my ads accurately are big points in the go wide column for me, as is Amazon looking the other way about botting, scammers, and bonus books. And, yeah, lack of respect from Amazon does encourage me to leave KU. Sure, Apple and Google won't respect me in particular, but they won't promise to pay me fairly for borrows then fail to police their program and take it out on my bottom line. I'm not leaving KU now, but I am changing my attitude about it. I used to think Amazon would act on those things eventually. Now... Not so much. I no longer see KU as a viable long term option. That may change-- I don't plan to leave for awhile given my release schedule-- but, until it's does, I'm acting accordingly.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Subscription models aren't going anywhere. Consolidation and 'everything' marketplaces are the trend (Amazon, Walmart, Costco), books included. In the digital 'everything' spaces and subscription services, the content providers may look at their average payout and weep when comparing it to days of yore before the movements of mass consolidation, but there's still a lot of opportunity out there to make good money on content.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

At this point, KU still makes sense to me. I'm largely an unproven author, and I have only one book out so far, so KU helps me get some readers. Once I have more books out, I may consider going wide.

It also helps that my book has 860 KENPC, so a full read in KU still makes me more money than I would make for a sale.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> You asked (Elizabeth) when anyone in this thread had said that Amazon owed them anything. You then asserted that such a claim was a strawman argument.
> 
> I expressed my perspective: I too got the feeling that folks were saying Amazon owed them something. I included two posts that corroborated that perspective.
> 
> ...


The posts you quoted showed no such thing except that you chose to insert a meaning that simply was not there. You stated that if someone was frustrated or upset about the current situation that it HAD TO BE because they thought 'Amazon *owed* them' which is _ridiculous_.

If you and Elizabeth stop trying to put words in my mouth, I won't accuse you of trying to shut down discussion.

ETA: If you didn't lose about 20% of your income in this drop, I'm happy for you. It happens I did and it is indeed frustrating. It is pretty human to react with emotion and I DO NOT APOLOGISE FOR THAT. That it is just business, that Amazon owes us nothing, that we need to make new business plans to deal with a change does not make us into emotionless robots.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> At this point, KU still makes sense to me. I'm largely an unproven author, and I have only one book out so far, so KU helps me get some readers. Once I have more books out, I may consider going wide.
> 
> It also helps that my book has 860 KENPC, so a full read in KU still makes me more money than I would make for a sale.


You're not alone. KU is still a great option for many people. I'm glad my one series is wide; but I'll be starting my next series in KU, too, because it's a new genre.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Atunah was right, I was talking about legit long term KU subscriptions, tho scammers are most definitely a problem. I admit as well that the various deals may be congealing wrongly in my head. I could've sworn over Christmas there was some kind of buy a kindle, get KU free for 2 years deal going on, but whether it's the recently expired buy a paperwhite get KU free for 6 months, the current buy a paperwhite get 3 months of KU for 1.99 or pre pay 2 years for 40% off, that's still a lot of readers who aren't paying into this mythological pot every month. 
I'm quite sure serious, quality readers are exactly who we'd want in KU, no doubt, but when you pay up front at 40% off, where does that money go? Into that month's pot? Spread out in the pots of the next two years with $6 instead of $10 in each pot? What I'm saying is there's a whole lot of not-10-a-month being deposited into the pot. 
Sometimes Amazon adds .4 mill. Sometimes it adds a whole mil. 
I was mainly just asking- knowing that this entire pot (that can not be as it's reported 'subscribers plus because we love you' money) divided by reads (that can't be counted correctly nor our borrow numbers given) equaling pay out is all 'don't worry about the man behind the curtain,' what's the smartest way to use this rank/discoverability tool we've been given without making it our only tool?
I started pubbing on Amazon long before KU, knowing full well that building a career would be a long, slow slog. KU was a very profitable surprise for me. It allowed me to experiment and have fun and funnel a lot of I-know-this-will-never-last-found-money away in retirement accounts, but as this brave new world finds an equilibrium I'm starting to prepare for that uphill slog again. I've had a blast playing but it's time to refocus on one long term, evergreen pen name. I'm just trying to plot out the best business plan for the future cause I agree with Seneca, lots of authors are going to be shaken out. I just don't plan on becoming one of them, so packing the parachute starts now. Debating with usedtoposthere is great fun because she knows of what she speaks. Outing herself wasn't needed in my case as I've been around in one form or another for a long time. I'd already read her links. I knew exactly who I was talking to, listening to, occasionally sparring with since I popped back into vocalness here. I was a baby when I found this place but I've grown, sarcastic, teasing posts aside I take my career seriously. 
I recognize that I'm at the end of my experimental college fun and it's time to figuratively pull out my piercings, cover my tatts, tame my hair and get a corporate wardrobe. I'm just trying to figure out if KU should be my closet or just an earring, lol. 
Sorry. That's long and rambling. Welcome to my morning coffee stream of consciousness free-writing session, lol.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JRTomlin said:


> The posts you quoted showed no such thing except that you chose to insert a meaning that simply was not there. You stated that if someone was frustrated or upset about the current situation that it HAD TO BE because they thought 'Amazon *owed* them' which is _ridiculous_.


My claim wasn't ridiculous at all.

It's one thing to be upset. It's another thing entirely to take things personally.



JRTomlin said:


> If you and Elizabeth stop trying to put words in my mouth...


I didn't put words in your mouth. On the contrary, I included excerpts from _your posts_. Here are your words (again):



JRTomlin said:


> ETA: It's a bit stupid that I'm p*ssed. It's business not a personal relationship, but *I do feel as though Amazon is slapping us in the face*. I had decided last month that I could no longer _afford_ to keep my novels in KU, but *having my face rubbed in how little they value our business does have me p*ssed off*.


I've had one six-figure business implode due to changes made by Google. I was frustrated. I thought, "_Damn, that sucks_."

But I didn't take it personally. I didn't proclaim on a public board that it felt like Google was slapping me in the face, and then rubbing my face in the fact it doesn't value my business.

See the difference?

One is frustration. Everyone feels it at some point. The other is taking personal offense. And _that_ only happens when you feel you're owed something.



JRTomlin said:


> ...I won't accuse you of trying to shut down discussion.


Uh-huh. I think that ship has sailed. I've read thousands of your posts and cannot remember a single time when you ever offered a sincere mea culpa to anyone. (And my memory is near perfect.)

So, your offer is disingenuous.



JRTomlin said:


> ETA: If you didn't lose about 20% of your income in this drop, I'm happy for you. It happens I did and it is indeed frustrating. It is pretty human to react with emotion and I DO NOT APOLOGISE FOR THAT. That it is just business, that Amazon owes us nothing, that we need to make new business plans to deal with a change does not make us into emotionless robots.


It's your prerogative to react with emotion. It's even your prerogative to make hyperbolic statements - for example, you "_feel as though Amazon is slapping you in the face_."

It's my prerogative to state that Amazon doesn't owe us anything. It's also my prerogative to opine that angst-filled hyperbole is likely to lead to more outrage.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

If KU was profitable, growing, and healthy - and thus not going anywhere - Amazon wouldn't have to put in ever-increasing infusions to keep it floating. If KU was run on subs alone, there wouldn't be any authors in it, except those willing to accept 5 cents per read.

It's heading to that point, despite the ever-increasing infusions. In other words, the KU subscription ship is sinking, despite all the effort. At some point, Amazon cuts the loss.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Just to be clear, the current offer to buy a Paperwhite does not give you 6 months KU free. It gives you $30 off if you get them together. So you get 6 months for the cost of 3 months. After that, it rolls over to the usual 9.99 a month.

So in order to get those extra month free, you have to buy a device also. No other way to get that deal. 

So yes, there are some discounted subscriptions out there, who knows how many. I was eligible to get another discounted long term that started after the current one ended. I am not eligible for any of the other offers as far as I can tell. I don't think the majority of subscribers are those that prepay a big chunk of money. Folks like payment plans, monthly type. All the subs work like that. They even added a monthly to prime because folks have asked for it. 

One has to wonder how many are just keeping it rolling over month to month and barely use it anymore, like they have many other services. Does it cancel each other out with those that use it a lot? Who knows. I do know that I am more careful to make use of my KU sub than I do other subscriptions it seems. But then I am not the only one using the other services. I am the only one that reads in my house.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Laran Mithras said:


> If KU was profitable, growing, and healthy - and thus not going anywhere - Amazon wouldn't have to put in ever-increasing infusions to keep it floating. If KU was run on subs alone, there wouldn't be any authors in it, except those willing to accept 5 cents per read.
> 
> It's heading to that point, despite the ever-increasing infusions. In other words, the KU subscription ship is sinking, despite all the effort. At some point, Amazon cuts the loss.


One thing this ignores is Amazon's focus on long term profits and market dominance. That isn't going anywhere. As long as KU works for those things (and I'd say it is based on the numbers I see in Author Earnings), it's working for Amazon.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> Well, I'm a member of the Authors Guild (which I think is still only for trade/print) and I have never been an "employee" of a publishing house. A royalty contract does not make you an employee.


Quite right. I suppose there are hired hands in the publishing business who are members of the Author's Guild, but I certainly think of it as a lobbying group for free-lancers.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> One thing this ignores is Amazon's focus on long term profits and market dominance. That isn't going anywhere. As long as KU works for those things (and I'd say it is based on the numbers I see in Author Earnings), it's working for Amazon.


Because they're taking ever-increasing profits from other areas to do it. The impact to the bottom line in the future won't be ignored. the clue is the reduced payouts and the sudden drops in page read counts. They're squeezing because the infusions aren't sustainable to profit goals.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> Because they're taking ever-increasing profits from other areas to do it. The impact to the bottom line in the future won't be ignored. the clue is the reduced payouts and the sudden drops in page read counts. They're squeezing because the infusions aren't sustainable to profit goals.


You could very well be right, but the truth is we don't have enough data to know much of anything for certain. Amazon doesn't release data on total number of pages read, total subscription income, or anything else--unless I've missed something. Hence, Amazon could be infusing money beyond what subscriptions bring in--or Amazon could be making a killing on subscriptions and pretending to add extra to the pot beyond what subscriptions cover. I know people have speculated that the initial pot was based on subscription income, but we don't know that for sure. It could just as easily be an arbitrary number.

More transparency would definitely be a good thing. 

Keep in mind also the theory that KU is a loss leader. Under that theory, Amazon doesn't expect to make money on it. They expect people to come for the cheap books and buy something else while they're on the site. Conceivably, that kind of model could result in an overall profit, but again, we lack the data to have any idea whether that's happening or not.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Markus Croft said:


> Long and informative I'd call it. I might be the only one, but in all the KU threads I've read so I can weigh my options, I've missed posts about all those offers. It's good to know that's happening and how it affects the ratio of page reads to pot.


Glad I could add more confusing logs to the KU pot fire, lol. 
Here's another. If you cancel your free trial and wait a bit, you can get another free trial. Wait, how did I figure that out? That may not be completely true. 
I did the free trial, then went on and had a KU membership. When I went wide last fall all Mad, I cancelled it. When I came crawling back with my books I rejoined as a reader expecting to pick up as paid, but they gave me a second free trial. So, whatever that means.



Atunah said:


> Just to be clear, the current offer to buy a Paperwhite does not give you 6 months KU free. It gives you $30 off if you get them together. So you get 6 months for the cost of 3 months. After that, it rolls over to the usual 9.99 a month.
> 
> So in order to get those extra month free, you have to buy a device also. No other way to get that deal.
> 
> ...


Interesting. The only current deals I see are on both the kindle and the paperwhite and both are 'add 3 months of KU for $1.99.'


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> You could very well be right, but the truth is we don't have enough data to know much of anything for certain. Amazon doesn't release data on total number of pages read, total subscription income, or anything else--unless I've missed something. Hence, Amazon could be infusing money beyond what subscriptions bring in--or Amazon could be making a killing on subscriptions and pretending to add extra to the pot beyond what subscriptions cover. I know people have speculated that the initial pot was based on subscription income, but we don't know that for sure. It could just as easily be an arbitrary number.
> 
> More transparency would definitely be a good thing.
> 
> Keep in mind also the theory that KU is a loss leader. Under that theory, Amazon doesn't expect to make money on it. They expect people to come for the cheap books and buy something else while they're on the site. Conceivably, that kind of model could result in an overall profit, but again, we lack the data to have any idea whether that's happening or not.


Right, we know very little. The only amount Amazon admits to is the infusion (and payout). That the infusion keeps increasing (millions and millions of dollars), logically tells us the subscription income isn't meeting the demand - or the infusions would be decreasing. In effect, we only need to see that the infusion is increasing to deduct that the other forms of income (subscription) aren't growing to meet the payout.

Couple that with the payout decreasing and I sense panic. They're slamming on the brakes.

That they're only telling us one factor is enough for my former corporate mind to sniff out the bandaids they're applying. That the payouts are decreasing while the infusions are increasing tell me the blood loss isn't being staunched. All corporate numbskulls, no matter how dense, eventually abandon something untenable.

Our assumption is when do they think it is untenable?


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> I understand why people get upset by the ever reducing rate. For some, this is their primary or only source of income.
> 
> The problem is the expectation. Amazon have never promised a minimum (or maximum) page rate. That makes KU an incredibly unreliable source of income. Admittedly, sales are equally unpredictable, but at least what you see is what you get. When it comes to page reads, that's not true because you don't know what the page rate will be. Unfortunately, in the absence of data, it's human nature to try and fill in the gaps, which leads to expectation. People get angry when anything falls short of their expectations.
> 
> ...


Well, those are cheery thoughts! As always, though, you make good points.

I know we're not employees, but just as surplus labor tends to force wages down, surplus content creators tend to force the royalties down. It's hard for most of us to have much leverage with Amazon when plenty of people are available to replace us. That probably isn't true for a small number of extremely popular authors, but it's true for the rest of us, especially us prawns. The sea is full of us.

Much as it's tempting to demonize Amazon--and the company is certainly annoying at times--it was probably inevitable that self-publishing would reach this kind of crisis eventually. If someone at Barnes and Noble had been visionary enough to start pushing more aggressively and rapidly into online sales, Amazon might never have gotten off the ground in the first place. B & N might still have created something like Nook Press without Amazon providing a nudge in that direction. Would we be better off, though? Probably not. Most companies want to make the most money they can. In that sense, most trad published authors are in the same boat, though they don't really realize it. Best selling authors have some leverage with publishers, but midlist authors don't have much. Self publishing (the best of it, anyway) has demonstrated that there are far more talented people around than the trads have space for. Perhaps that's one reason the trads don't like us; we somewhat reduce the pool of people available to them.

I'm thankful I don't depend on my writing income. That said, unforeseen developments may make the situation better than we can predict right now. (Yes, I'm an optimist.)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Laran Mithras said:


> Because they're taking ever-increasing profits from other areas to do it. The impact to the bottom line in the future won't be ignored. the clue is the reduced payouts and the sudden drops in page read counts. They're squeezing because the infusions aren't sustainable to profit goals.


I suspect you're 180 degrees off. I suspect that KU subscribers buy more from Amazon than they did before they subscribed. Amazon measures everything. And as I said, the other item is how much business they take away from other stores.

They've been selling two-year subscriptions. My guess would be that the program will be around at least another year. But who knows. Amazon is nothing if not secretive.

Audible will be rolling out subscription models also, so I don't think the subscription idea is going anywhere with Amazon. Of course, audio's a bit different as there are only so many books a listener can physically listen to. I probably used to listen to 2-4 hours/day, but even I, at best, was listening to only 2 books a week.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

I agree that KU is most likely here to stay, in some form or another. 
I also agree that the competition is heating up, with no need to court authors anymore. 
More information and transparency would definitely be a good thing, but we all know that's not happening. 
The pot is bs and has always been bs. A page is what we say it is. My profit is in your margin. Etc. 
Course I guess at the end of the day the basic answer hasn't changed- do what works best for you. Same bs, different day.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> I predict the rate will drop until it represents 30% of sale price. If Amazon could, they'd cut the sales royalty to 30%, which is something I expect them to try should the other platforms fail. We're all on a hiding to hell, but KU is the current target. Once Amazon have sufficient traction, they'll come for those of us doing sales only next.
> 
> No supplier is safe in Amazon's business model.


This doesn't make any sense. Books in KU are priced anywhere from .99 to 9.99 (and, occasionally, above). They're anywhere from 5k to 500k+. With the current payout system, there's no rate that will reliably be 30% the sale price. If they changed the system to 30% the same price, ppl will raise their prices.

I would love if Amazon would institute a minimum rate, but that won't happen. I don't think KU is going anywhere for awhile, but I also don't think it's the best place for midlisters anymore.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Going Incognito said:


> Interesting. The only current deals I see are on both the kindle and the paperwhite and both are 'add 3 months of KU for $1.99.'


Can't say I have ever seen that. What I see now is this. Which is in line with offers I have seen previously.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I think we're heading far below .003 cents per page before they pull the plug.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

As an outsider (I don't have any books in Select, and have only tried it for a couple books since it came to live with us in the fall of 2011), I have enjoyed this thread. 

All this talk about free and discounted readers has me puzzled. Do these people (who subscribe to KU) not know about the great American tradition of the public library? I just noticed that there are 123 books in my folder devoted to e-brary borrows. That's over the course of two years. Conservatively, a book a week. And I didn't have to pay Jeff Bezos $10 a month for the privilege. I live in a small, cantankerous state, not one of those open-handed (with taxpayers' money) bright blue states. Surely the other 49 have e-braries too?

I can confirm that free-lancing is not the green pasture it used to be. 2008 hit us hard. I write reviews for the Wall Street Journal, among others. In 2007 my rate was $1000 for a 700-word review. Now it is $350 ($450 for the weekend edition). Much the same was true of Big Five advances.

The KDP platform of course only began toward the end of 2007. The high point for me was January 2012, after which Kindle Select came along and killed the model. My income now from Amazon is about a third of what it was then.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> It's to do with the sale price. A 60,000 word book (approx 300 KENP) pitched at $2.99 earns $2.00 at 70% royalty. At a page rate of .0033, it'll earn roughly $1.00, which is equivalent to 30% royalty.
> 
> If authors discount their books to 99c then Amazon win because the sale price is cheap, which is their objective (remember your margin is their profit, so they give the consumer lower prices at your expense). The author wins inasmuch as they earn $1.00 per book in KU, assuming 99c is a fair sale price, which it probably isn't.
> 
> ...


I don't know. Amazon encourages pricing 2.99 to 9.99 with their royalty scheme. I don't think they want .99 books, necessarily. After all, 30% of $3 is more than 65% of $1.

Everyone has their "this is where I seriously think about leaving KU borrow rate," and, for a lot of authors that number is .004 (that's authors I know). I think we'll see a lot of people leaving the program if they go before that. Maybe not smaller authors and maybe not the authors who clean up every month but a lot of the people in the middle.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

notjohn said:


> All this talk about free and discounted readers has me puzzled. Do these people (who subscribe to KU) not know about the great American tradition of the public library? I just noticed that there are 123 books in my folder devoted to e-brary borrows. That's over the course of two years. Conservatively, a book a week. And I didn't have to pay Jeff Bezos $10 a month for the privilege. I live in a small, cantankerous state, not one of those open-handed (with taxpayers' money) bright blue states. Surely the other 49 have e-braries too?


Ah, but like I always say, us readers to not fit into one drawer. Every reader I have ever known, including me, has always gotten their books many different ways. Now even more different ways with ebooks. Its not one or the other, never has. The books I read with KU are not available at my libraries. I have access to 3 libraries with really good selections. But I still want to have KU. Some of us read a lot of books and we want to have options. I like to read Amanda's books with KU and they are not in libraries. I read amazon published books in KU and they are not in libraries. So many backlist titles re-released by authors are in KU but not in libraries. Its a combination of sources, not just one. I don't know any reader that only gets their book from one single place. Not a one. We buy, we borrow library, we read with KU, we get it loaned out by other readers and some even have a combination of ebooks and paperbooks.

We love books period. And the thought that I have access to almost anything there is now is just so awesome.

Its never just one way to acquire books. Even before ebooks it has never been one way.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

notjohn said:


> As an outsider (I don't have any books in Select, and have only tried it for a couple books since it came to live with us in the fall of 2011), I have enjoyed this thread.
> 
> All this talk about free and discounted readers has me puzzled. Do these people (who subscribe to KU) not know about the great American tradition of the public library? I just noticed that there are 123 books in my folder devoted to e-brary borrows. That's over the course of two years. Conservatively, a book a week. And I didn't have to pay Jeff Bezos $10 a month for the privilege. I live in a small, cantankerous state, not one of those open-handed (with taxpayers' money) bright blue states. Surely the other 49 have e-braries too?
> 
> ...


You gave advice for years, though, not to give any books away free, either permafree or through Select's five free days. When I told you four years ago that I'd gone from 5k a month to 30k a month using Select's free days four months into my publishing career, you accused me of lying. When I posted my sales graph, you accused me of photoshopping it.

Free books made authors money. Select made authors money. Many ways to do this, but authors do need to be aware of what the most profitable ways are at the time and be prepared to try new things. Permafree is a bit more out of favor now due to loss of Amazon visibility on free books and services like Instafreebie. Most authors are finding they have to up quality of presentation and product, and also promote more, to compete. Higher pricing (as realistic for your genre) may be appropriate and helpful as a quality signal if presentation and product support it.

It's always tricky. The good news is that there isn't one right answer. If something doesn't work, try another way. If something does work, do more of it.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Amazon has won. This is the result. The other retailers aren't even really trying to compete for the indie market. Even at .0035 a page read - its still better pay than a trad deal.

Do I like any of this? 

No! I hate it. I miss the days of having a wide range of venues to sell in. I really miss getting $1.35 per sale for a 10k short. I'd love to go back to those days.

But it ain't happening. Amazon crushed its competition and we helped them do it. So now they're King - and we dance at their command. 

Very few authors have what it takes to make it wide. You need to be s damned good marketer & prolific as a hell. Plus know how to schmooze your way into getting Apple and Kobo to feature you.

I'm not any of those things & neither are most authors. Like it or not its Amazon or bust.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> I think we're heading far below .003 cents per page before they pull the plug.


I think it will somehow get shuffled under prime. Take a look at this book that's #12 in paid and isn't released until Oct 1st, it has 877 reviews. (its a zon imprint)

https://www.amazon.com/Naturalist-Book-1-ebook/dp/B01N1UN91W/ref=zg_bs_158591011_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XQPPDEQ8P4EF3G1C6T0G

Now, I don't know how it got so many readers, but I assume it was via prime (I don't think KU gets advanced access, but I could be wrong; I'm pretty sure that prime readers do, though). If I'm correct on that, it's one example of zon seeing Prime as their flagship platform, and KU being secondary.

I'd imagine at some point they'll offer KU subscribers some kind of deal to switch over to Prime Reading. It also supports their ambitions to push more than just books.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DBYBNEE?_encoding=UTF8&pageType=FEATUREDOC&primeCampaignId=PrimeReading_landingpage_desktop&ref_=dbs_o_nonprime-pr_rwt_bark_c1_kmw_3004553982&storeType=ebooks

that right there is zon's long term ambitions.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

ireaderreview said:


> ************************
> 
> the market is breaking in multiple ways
> Some people want control
> ...


These are some interesting thoughts. A lot has certainly changed in the last few years. I suppose there could be much more change ahead!

==

Regarding reading ebooks from libraries. Certainly there are some good options. (I just got a chance to read three very interesting books.) But some genres simply are not carried. A lot of those genres have a higher-than-average indie presence in the market. Your local library doesn't really have much if any LGBT content, so the readers of this are bang out of luck. Your local library probably doesn't carry erotica, so good luck if that's your jam. Your local library will definitely carry mainstream romance--but maybe not as much as you read, or your favorite authors, if you don't love mostly the titanic-sized authors. Have you tried looking for urban fantasy at you library? Yeah. How's it going? Because where I live, they don't even have Jim Butcher ebooks, and certainly not a lot of smaller / newer authors. It varies, certainly, but I think most of you guys would agree there are some things the library doesn't carry--and not just "sexy" 'we must protect the children' stuff. They just don't consider some genres important. If, on the other hand, you read ONLY bestsellers, and are just as content with print books and long waiting lists as ebooks, then you're in luck. The library probably caters to you most of the time. But there are many readers that just aren't catered to by the library's selections. (Local library no longer even has a separate section for Sci Fi, which I think is a travesty.) And I don't see them changing any time soon, frankly. The idea that all books are interchangeable to all readers isn't true. (Not that I think anybody here really believes that! It just sounds like it sometimes when people say, 'just go to the library.')

===

I don't have anything in this discussion anymore, if I'm honest. I've been wide for awhile now, I think almost a year? IDK. Awhile anyway. I must say since getting out, there have absolutely been struggles, but in so many ways it's been a relief. I didn't realize how much of my brain power, energy, and writerly time was taken up with wrangling with the many decisions that, at least for me, staying in KU required. At the time it seemed like there were more and harder decisions and work for going wide, but that doesn't seem to be how it panned out, at least in my case.

====



Gentleman Zombie said:


> Very few authors have what it takes to make it wide. You need to be s damned good marketer & prolific as a hell. Plus know how to schmooze your way into getting Apple and Kobo to feature you.
> 
> I'm not any of those things & neither are most authors. Like it or not its Amazon or bust.


That's your experience. I couldn't schmooze my way out of a paper bag. I do tick the "Prolific" box, which I did while in KU as well, but nothing else. You have to understand: some people's incomes do better out of KU *just from Amazon sales*. It's not all schmoozing and being a good marketer. It really does vary!

The caveat being I don't know how well anyone personally is doing in KU or how they would personally do wide. I just know my own experience, and what I've read from others. And my impression is that you don't have to be an impresario and have every single duck in a row (though it certainly couldn't hurt, if you can do that). Results can really, really vary.


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## CABarrett (Feb 23, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> I think it will somehow get shuffled under prime. Take a look at this book that's #12 in paid and isn't released until Oct 1st, it has 877 reviews. (its a zon imprint)
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Naturalist-Book-1-ebook/dp/B01N1UN91W/ref=zg_bs_158591011_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XQPPDEQ8P4EF3G1C6T0G
> 
> Now, I don't know how it got so many readers, but I assume it was via prime (I don't think KU gets advanced access, but I could be wrong; I'm pretty sure that prime readers do, though). If I'm correct on that, it's one example of zon seeing Prime as their flagship platform, and KU being secondary.


Yes, _The Naturalist_ was one of the "Kindle First" books for this month. Anyone with a Prime subscription can pick one of the new releases for free.

Amazon is willing to learn what works in book marketing from watching indies: it's basically an ARC presented as a Prime perk. I think this means that someone in the company is paying attention to how much value you guys in KU are creating, and as a reader I hope that the compensation soon becomes more appropriate. I enjoy the subscription model but not if it's coming at such a cost to the creative producers.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> I don't think I'd call them an all time winner just yet. Things can change incredibly quickly.
> 
> And I don't think many would argue whether it's a good idea to list on Amazon or not. The question is whether we have to be in KU and exclusive. That will depend on personal circumstance, but all things being equal, then I'd rather not be in KU or exclusive.


SP authors tend to think in months. A year is an eternity, hehe. These companies are thinking in terms of 5-10 years and probably beyond.

Long-term I think the industry will be amazing to be (provided people like your writing). The technology will allow everyone to catch up to each other and content providers will have unprecedented access to consumers through a ton of channels. Books will simply be one facet of the "media buffet" available on each retailer.

The only reason zon rules right now is because they enticed authors to sacrifice their own long-term self-interests. But that will run its course in time because all commodifying markets have a bottom where the madness must stop.

But for the immediate future... here's your pool noodle, now get into the arena and fight those tigers and gladiators for our entertainment.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Can't say I have ever seen that. What I see now is this. Which is in line with offers I have seen previously.


I don't see that but there's always a chance we're looking in different places or with different devices. If I remember correctly, we live too close for it to be different markets. Mine offers a full price product but then you can add on the discounted KU. But yeah, you've gotta buy the device. Expensive way to get 'free' KU, lol. It also cracks me up that the power adapter is extra. Guess they're taking a cue from 'batteries not included?' Jeeze. (Holy cow imgur has become a PITA)










I just realized that in my coffee ramble this morning I meant to add a thank you to my 'I knew who you were and had already read those links' portion. I meant to then, but my brain was going faster than my fingers were flying and apparently I left out the 'you didn't need to uncloak _but thank you for doing so_' part. It was a very thoughtful way to point me and others toward good stuff. You could've just let us swing to protect yourself instead. When I reread I realized how ungrateful I sounded, but what I meant by you didn't have to was thank you, as I _know_ you didn't have to, if that makes sense. I meant it the thank you way, not the 'I already knew that' way. So, thank you.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Going Incognito said:


> I don't see that but there's always a chance we're looking in different places or with different devices. If I remember correctly, we live too close for it to be different markets. Mine offers a full price product but then you can add on the discounted KU. But yeah, you've gotta buy the device. Expensive way to get 'free' KU, lol. It also cracks me up that the power adapter is extra. Guess they're taking a cue from 'batteries not included?' Jeeze. (Holy cow imgur has become a PITA)


You know, I see the same thing also that is in your picture. I never thought to look on the right. One is on the left and one is on the right. Same screen. And yes, imgur is like a maze now. They keep moving stuff around. So basically they are offering on the same page if you buy a paperwhite KU for 1.99 3 months, or $30 for 3 months. Duh, let me think a tad about which one I would pick.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

A couple of points. Kobo is experimenting with a subscription service and it's non-exclusive. I've made just under $100 so far, I think, which isn't much, but it's only beta in one country. I also talked to someone who said the reason the other booksellers aren't doing more, is because good tech employees are next to impossible to find.

I agree with whoever said that these days, KU ebooks are like a lost-leader, drawing people in so they'll be tempted to buy more expensive products. I put a few books in KU, and then pulled out completely the first time they lowered the page counts. I won't lie, it takes time and lots of energy to build a following on the other booksellers. I also agree that this business changes so fast, who knows what's right around the corner.  Anyway, in case it helps, around 50% of my income comes from sources other than Amazon now.


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## writerlygal (Jul 23, 2017)

notjohn said:


> As an outsider (I don't have any books in Select, and have only tried it for a couple books since it came to live with us in the fall of 2011), I have enjoyed this thread.
> 
> All this talk about free and discounted readers has me puzzled. Do these people (who subscribe to KU) not know about the great American tradition of the public library? I just noticed that there are 123 books in my folder devoted to e-brary borrows. That's over the course of two years. Conservatively, a book a week. And I didn't have to pay Jeff Bezos $10 a month for the privilege. I live in a small, cantankerous state, not one of those open-handed (with taxpayers' money) bright blue states. Surely the other 49 have e-braries too?
> 
> ...


The libraries, probably even in very blue & liberal states, don't usually carry the kind of smut that many KU readers like to read. The library's 'classics' section is exactly that: classics. Many people who read romance eBooks do so because they like their smut packaged as romance & hidden in plain sight on their eReader or phone. It's a niche market the library doesn't cater to but self-published authors of smutty romance or erotica on KU sure do, & good for them. They know their market & what it wants, & they deliver that & are rewarded for it.

Also, the library doesn't usually carry self published books. Many Amazon/KU readers like & prefer self published books. I use my local library to borrow lots of eBooks [although I'm a pretty rare bird- not many of my friends or family members do] but there are also many books I want to read that my library doesn't have available at the time I want to read them or at all. This list includes most self published books, as well as many books that are available on Amazon in digital format but that the library doesn't have except in old fashioned print form [I haven't read a print book in years], & brand new popular traditionally published books I'd have to reserve & wait in a queue for ages to get from my library. If I want it now I want it now & many people are the same way. Readers of erotic romance & other self published genres often want the newest releases as soon as they can get their grubby lil hands on them... that is quite a difference from the library crowd which is usually a lot more patient, waiting for the library to notify them that their hold on a book has been fulfilled [or at least that's how my library system works with popular books].

Finally, I read awhile back though I'd scratch my head to remember where: libraries are most often used by the upper middle class or rich & educated, as well as the very poor & uneducated. But the second group uses libraries for things like Internet connection or to rent DVDs. Many self published authors find that their readership falls somewhere in the middle- skewing towards poor but not that poor. To me the library population & the Amazon self-published readers/KU population are 2 different things & there is little overlap.


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

You're a bit restricted by your geographical location when it comes to Overdrive, too. Our city library is lacking, our county library is much better (and responsive to "suggest this title.") Most of my friends read books on their phones from the library, but it's easy to go through the main catalogue if you're an avid reader and then find that you're #500 of #743 on 4 copies of Stephen King's IT. It's a godsend if you need something to tide you over after knee surgery, but if you're reading for more than a couple of months then you're going to need something more.

I still use Overdrive a lot for audio books, which tend to be pretty expensive. I have 2 hours of commute per day and it fills that time. I was surprised to see that one book I'd checked out from KU, A Criminal Defense, had audio, so I'm listening to that now. I assume since it's whispersync, the page count is calculated the same way, but I'd never noticed an audio option for my other KU books.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Vale said:


> I assume since it's whispersync, the page count is calculated the same way, but I'd never noticed an audio option for my other KU books.


I think the safe assumption is the author isn't getting paid by KU at all, since there is no page movement.

The big question is, are they being paid the normal audio read royalty this way?


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

I think we're in the "dark times" right now... in like three years we'll be looking at a different market. Google isn't standing still. Apple is still trying.

Take a look at Audible/ACX and the rates there - 40% on a random figure. Oh, and whispersync so let's sell that audiobook at a super low price that increase sales don't make up for.

If Google came out with a 70% audiobook program I'd jump with my next series. I'm already locked in for seven year terms on the current stuff but there's always a new series... 

That kind of money would produce a big shift as people moved over. 

I feel like KU is the same... we're just waiting for someone to put out a decent subscription model and provide a good royalty.

As for sustainability... Netflix has just under 104 million subscribers worldwide. Even at $8 a month that's $832 million a month.

And they're running a massive streaming empire requiring a huge infrastructure. 

ePubs are a few megabytes each. At three million readers at $9.99 a month, you're looking at $359 million a year in subscription income. Take half for authors and that's almost $180 million.

People do love their kindles but will happily read on any tablet they can get their hands on. Some startup promising 70% of the subscription price goes straight to royalties might be able to get moving.

Let's not forget the big publishers either - they could put together a subscription service app and move their titles over.

Amazon are massively powerful but in the end they're just an outlet that is almost totally dependent on their suppliers. The big five could cripple Amazon by withdrawing titles. 

Disney has left Netflix and off they go to start their own service. 

I think we're going to see some fragmentation that overall will be better for authors.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> I think the safe assumption is the author isn't getting paid by KU at all, since there is no page movement.
> 
> The big question is, are they being paid the normal audio read royalty this way?


The question was about an audiobook that showed up on the book page. The reader was surprised because she didn't usually see KU books with audio included at no additional charge.

The book will have been an Amazon Publishing book. Those books (at least most of them if not all of them) are available in audio as well as ebook. The author is paid the same royalty for a sale or a borrow. Before anybody gets all excited, that royalty is almost certainly less than the author would make on a self-published book, unless the book was extremely short.

The royalty on an audio listen is considerably less, but yes, the author is paid.


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## Vale (Jul 19, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> The book will have been an Amazon Publishing book. Those books (at least most of them if not all of them) are available in audio as well as ebook.


I took a quick look and, just to confirm, A Criminal Defense by William L Meyers is a Thomas & Mercer book (Amazon imprint).


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> I appreciate your assessment of the tragedy of the industry, but I'm not entirely sure we have enough insight to know what else might be happening in every company, including potential start ups.


Skynet 100%.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I think I got booed for saying this in another thread a long time ago, but some kind of minimum curation would stop at least some kinds of scams. Amazon is so obsessed with bragging about the number of titles that are in KU, but I would think readers would prefer 200,000 books that have been through quality control to over a million that haven't. It would mean that authors might have to wait for a short time before getting into KU, but it might be worth it--for them and everyone else--in the long run.
> 
> Amazon clearly wants to run a system with virtually no human intervention, and it has proved it can't be done well. If it doesn't invest more in the program than it has, it's pretty clear it will collapse eventually.
> 
> No, I don't think Amazon owes us a living, but I do think it owes us what any vendor could reasonably expect: accurate payment. We might quibble over whether its responsibilities extend beyond that, but they certainly are responsible for at least that much.


I've said it before, Bill, and most people react with horror. Oh, Amazon won't ever do that! Think of how long it would take, how much money it would cost! It would require people! And it's all true. It wouldn't be easy, but it would be better overall if it happened. Better for Amazon, better for readers, and better for us. It could even be phased in, with all new enrollments being subjected to some level of curating, or even not allowed until the book had made X amount of sales in Y amount of time. Scam books, books with loads of issues like formatting, spelling and the like, could mostly be found by bots, and given a quick human glance.

But, like you say, Amazon wants to do everything with bots. For all people tout computers taking over everything, we have a pretty good case study here that it's not happening any time soon. Physical jobs that are pure repetition? Yeah, probably going to be in all factory jobs soon, but writing books, figuring out if something is legitimate, correct, following the rules? Having to make judgments on things? Nah. Maybe in another twenty years. Probably more like forty, even one hundred.

I don't want rainbows and ponies. I want a system that can count pages read, ignore page flip, people who go back to the beginning after they read, books that are still double-spaced in large font, or whatever the latest "thing" is. I want a reporting system that isn't lagging behind twenty-four hours (which seems to be the average for my page reads to show up). I want a system that doesn't allow blatant, out in the blasted open, stick it where the sun don't shine you idiots cheating, and then gives the offenders freaking bonuses. Big freaking bonuses! I want a program to be closed down if the company can't follow through on what it promised, if they can't or won't fix it.

***
Thanks, Modi Gliani. 

***

Someone said upthread something about the scammers using the free subscription month, running up a lot of page reads, then getting another free month, on and on. It requires having legit credit cards, or a good facsimile of them, so that's something I don't know about, but one thing Amazon could do is monitor the free month subscriptions. If there are some with thousands of page reads, more than the average voracious reader would consume, then that's an account to flag. Watch which books are being downloaded, how fast these pages are being read, stuff like that. A good bot could likely be trusted to catch this sort of thing, and a human could double check. Then the authors of the books being downloaded a lot by free accounts could be assumed to be scams.

Anyway, KU is what it is. It might get cleaned up, run better, but even if it's not, it's still a matter of using the program to benefit ourselves, if it's possible.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

........ said:


> I think we're in the "dark times" right now... in like three years we'll be looking at a different market. Google isn't standing still. Apple is still trying.
> 
> Take a look at Audible/ACX and the rates there - 40% on a random figure. Oh, and whispersync so let's sell that audiobook at a super low price that increase sales don't make up for.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. Well said.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

........ said:


> I think we're going to see some fragmentation that overall will be better for authors.


https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/walmart-partners-with-google-to-introduce-voice-activated-shopping/article36063928/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

An interesting article about Walmart partnering with Google in the e-space. Early days, but interesting.

I've said this before. Zon taking the boots to authors is going to come back to haunt them. It's just a question of when it happens.

The thing about business is that all it takes is for one of the big guys to decide to challenge zon and the war begins. My prediction Walmart (distribution + marketing $ + US market) + Google (tech / tablet expertise + marketing $+ US market) + Kobo (ebook expertise + international market).

I'm telling you, if Kobo ever gets a mass push into the US market (as in the scenario above) zon is in for a world of hurt.


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## Wysardry (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm not in KU, as I haven't published any books, but I'm wondering if anyone has actually earned less because of the lower rate or whether they got more page views to make up for it.

To me, it seems fairly obvious that if the pot size and number of total page views (across Amazon) varies every month, that the rate also has to vary.


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## firstdraft (Apr 22, 2017)

Amazon's goal is to increase subscribers and purchases on their platform. People sign up and check out amazon primarily for the big name releases. As KU has grown, amazon has focused their time on getting more and more high profile content in KU, but to do that it costs them way more as they need to broker special deals and royalities beyond what they give indie authors. As the amazon sales team continues to improve their catalog it will continue to erode the indie market share as more money is given to non indie content and thus also more page reads are spent by readers on non indie content.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

firstdraft said:


> Amazon's goal is to increase subscribers and purchases on their platform. People sign up and check out amazon primarily for the big name releases. As KU has grown, amazon has focused their time on getting more and more high profile content in KU, but to do that it costs them way more as they need to broker special deals and royalities beyond what they give indie authors. As the amazon sales team continues to improve their catalog it will continue to erode the indie market share as more money is given to non indie content and thus also more page reads are spent by readers on non indie content.


how did none of us think of this. Brilliant insight (seriously, no sarcasm intended).

I bet you that's the gap we can't put our finger on. Zon does special KU arrangements with big authors (from payment to non-exclusivity). So who knows what they are being paid out of the pot.

Ugh, sort of gross to think of them stiffing indies to pay authors who are already millionaires.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> I've said this before. Zon taking the boots to authors is going to come back to haunt them. It's just a question of when it happens.


Yes to this for a simple reason: To the degree that Select authors feel they are being exploited by Amazon, to that degree there will be absolutely no loyalty to Amazon. Zero. Which means all it takes is serious competition to Amazon and authors will move in droves and leave Amazon flat. Kick the dog and the dog will remember and someday bite you. Beat the elephant and the elephant will remember and someday crush you.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> Yes to this for a simple reason: To the degree that Select authors feel they are being exploited by Amazon, to that degree there will be absolutely no loyalty to Amazon. Zero. Which means all it takes is serious competition to Amazon and authors will move in droves and leave Amazon flat. Kick the dog and the dog will remember and someday bite you. Beat the elephant and the elephant will remember and someday crush you.


hehe to be fair to zon though, even if they treated authors amazingly, most would screw them over if something better came along. And Walmart is just as ruthless to their suppliers. This is just the era of cutthroat capitalism, where everyone and everything is commodified as fast as it can be.

I don't think what zon is doing is smart, but I understand it. They aren't our "friend", merely a business partner with the upper hand who is using it to maximize their benefit in the relationship. And they are keeping the pure breeds fat and happy at the top, so they think they have everything well in hand.

But life has a way of punishing arrogance. What's funny and ironic about this is that Bezos knows all this. He's always said someone will dethrone zon one day, he just hopes it's not during his lifetime.

The stories of how amazon treats its own workers horribly (and views them as disposable) are widespread; not sure why we'd expect them to behave differently with us. It could very well be part of why they can't get the scamming under control, the workers just don't give a *&^%.

All I know is that zon is part of a larger trend, but do deserve some criticism because they don't have to participate in that trend to the extent they do; they are strong enough to resist it and even make it a negative to engage in. But Bezos and company don't seem to care about the human side of the equation, just what squeezes another cent out of the machine.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> how did none of us think of this. Brilliant insight (seriously, no sarcasm intended).
> 
> I bet you that's the gap we can't put our finger on. Zon does special KU arrangements with big authors (from payment to non-exclusivity). So who knows what they are being paid out of the pot.
> 
> Ugh, sort of gross to think of them stiffing indies to pay authors who are already millionaires.


And your source for this is?

To my knowledge, no indies, big or not, are getting any special deals in Select. There was a short (some months) period at the beginning of KU when some indies were allowed to try out KU while still being wide. That period has long been over. The authors were also not paid out of the KU pool. KDP will not promise any indie author promo or other special treatment. However, the better you sell, in Select or not, the more likely that is. Likewise the more likely to have a book in Prime Reading and/or be picked up by an imprint, either of which CAN help your bottom line. Or not.

Amazon also has deals with some publishers to put books in KU. And there are the aforementioned imprints. Neither of those is paid from the KU pot.

The other big incentive is bonuses.

That's what I know. If somebody has info about special terms for special indies, you're of course welcome to share. When I'm not promoted and am frustrated, I remind myself to write better, hookier, more appealing books. And that promoting occasionally might not be a terrible idea.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> hehe to be fair to zon though, even if they treated authors amazingly, most would screw them over if something better came along. And Walmart is just as ruthless to their suppliers. This is just the era of cutthroat capitalism, where everyone and everything is commodified as fast as it can be.
> 
> I don't think what zon is doing is smart, but I understand it. They aren't our "friend", merely a business partner with the upper hand who is using it to maximize their benefit in the relationship. And they are keeping the pure breeds fat and happy at the top, so they think they have everything well in hand.
> 
> ...


"bezosed" definition: sucked in and exploited


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Wysardry said:


> I'm not in KU, as I haven't published any books, but I'm wondering if anyone has actually earned less because of the lower rate or whether they got more page views to make up for it.


Yes, and No.

Yes we earn less. No we don't get more page views to make up for it.



> To me, it seems fairly obvious that if the pot size and number of total page views (across Amazon) varies every month, that the rate also has to vary.


The pot is an arbitrary figure Amazon put in each month based on corporate whim.

The number of page reads has 2 factors.
1. It is inflated considerably by scammers Amazon is failing to shut down.
2. Its is being reduced by ignoring Anything read in Page-Flip mode.

Both hurt authors really badly. 1 reduces the rate. 2 reduces the number of reads the author is paid for.

We get screwed both ways.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Amazon also has deals with some publishers to put books in KU. And there are the aforementioned imprints. Neither of those is paid from the KU pot.


I should have been clearer. I wasn't referring to indies. So the TP authors in KU aren't paid from the KU pot? Do you have a source for that?

So Amazon is paying them out of some other pot? Crouche blake, JK Rowling, Atwood, JRR Tolkein, tons of Amazon imprints... all those books get paid out some other way?

It's great if that's the case.

edit: I should also add. I kind of find the "pot" issue confusing. Ultimately, it's all "zon" revenue. So if zon sets aside $10M to pay those authors to go into KU, that's 10M being allocated to KU but not to the KU authors themselves (rather a separate side deal). It's competition within the KU environment, thereby decreasing KU reads of other authors. Not trying to be difficult, I just don't see how all these big names in KU doesn't ultimately detract from the revenues of the other KU authors.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> I should have been clearer. I wasn't referring to indies. So the TP authors in KU aren't paid from the KU pot? Do you have a source for that?
> 
> So Amazon is paying them out of some other pot? Crouche blake, JK Rowling, Atwood, JRR Tolkein, tons of Amazon imprints... all those books get paid out some other way?
> 
> ...


APub imprint authors are paid royalties, full stop. Sale or borrow. They're making about half of what they would on a KU borrow, so don't be jealous. They're also paid the lower amount on a borrow during times when the book is on sale. The number can get pretty low but it does not vary based on the KU rate and I have been told that it is accounted for separately--which makes sense as it's a completely separate payment type.

Tradpub authors ditto. It's the regular publisher royalty, or some agreed-on amount of it. I don't have access to those figures.

I am an APub author, so I know how they're paid. I also know how publisher contracts work with Amazon in broad detail. I've been told by somebody who would know that the pots are separate. Some stuff is under an NDA so I can't lay everything out that I know. Honestly I sometimes forget what was confidential so I usually speak generally. I was exclusive when KU started so was not incentivized as wide authors were, which stunk but on the other hand I got it.

The justification for big names, bonuses, etc. is that these are the authors drawing readers into the program. If the program doesn't attract enough readers, you have a Scribd situation. Book subscription services are tricky. Ask Scribd and Oyster. If you have what readers perceive as a second-rate library that includes no authors they've heard of, they'll probably stop renewing. This is why KU1 became KU2. Readers said it was becoming a library of shorts and erotica and didn't include the novels by bigger name indies they wanted to read. Of course, some liked that, but the numbers didn't work for Amazon.

I too am frustrated by the payout rate. I've been upset by the inaction over scamming, stuffing, and bots. I've diversified starting one year into publishing and am more diversified now. I have books wide, in Select, and tradpubbed. I have audio and translations ditto. I adjust as the market changes. But I think it's important to look at things as accurately as possible. My past career was in business. Business isn't fair, and acting out of emotion is a bad way to run a business. However, it's generally a good idea to avoid dealing with entities that are actually dishonest. That's why I don't have an advertising account with Facebook. If you think that applies to Amazon, I can certainly understand not wanting to do business with them. I haven't experienced dishonesty. I've experienced a company acting in its best interests, always, which are sadly often not mine.

Amazon people can be friendly and nice and great. But they aren't my friends, and it isn't their job to make me happy unless that benefits them. Sad but true.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I've been told by somebody who would know that the pots are separate. Some stuff is under an NDA so I can't lay everything out that I know.


I believe you and hopefully I don't sound like I'm trying to argue. But how can anyone know that the pots are separate? No one even knows what the revenues from KU are? I can quite easily believe that Amazon "says" the pots are separate, but I don't know how anyone can verify that.

But let's say there are two pots in actuality and not just words? One from subscription revenues and another that they cough up themselves and use to pay the AP's and trads? Where are they getting the money for that pot if it's not from subscribers?

For the pots to be separate that would mean amazon is footing the bill 100% for the traditional publishers and the amazon imprints. That would probably come to millions. If they are doing that, then that's a huge benefit to KU authors (as amazon is investing millions to make KU attractive but not dinging KU authors for those costs). But I really don't understand how anyone can verify any of this and it's entirely possible that zon is using the pot but simply say there are "two pots" (but for all we know both pots are created out of subscription revenues).

Anyway, not trying to be difficult  Just trying to understand how two pots exist beyond simply amazon "saying" they do.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> APub imprint authors are paid royalties, full stop. Sale or borrow. They're making about half of what they would on a KU borrow, so don't be jealous.


Also, just on this point. I'm not jealous of anyone  And what they get paid in royalties isn't "all" they get paid. They get tens of thousands worth of free promotion. So it's not really "full stop". I mean, I'd happily take 50% over 70% if you kick me 5k or 10k worth of promotion and visibility  I'd make out like a king on the sell through.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> Also, just on this point. I'm not jealous of anyone  And what they get paid in royalties isn't "all" they get paid. They get tens of thousands worth of free promotion. So it's not really "full stop". I mean, I'd happily take 50% over 70% if you kick me 5k or 10k worth of promotion and visibility  I'd make out like a king on the sell through.


You hope. It honestly doesn't work that way. Some books and series have huge appeal and some don't. My APub series is not as appealing as some of my indie series. Promo goes a long way if a book or series is super appealing. It doesn't move the dial nearly as much if it is not.

Some authors eschew APub offers. The offers are worth it if you sell at least 2-3x as many books via APub. But for the authors they are signing, that may or may not be true. And the royalty rate is nowhere close to 50%. Consider also that an author picked up by APub is already receiving Amazon push due to selling well. One question is how much money that author has to lay out to reach that success. My own expenses are relatively low. That figures in.

The "pots" are accounting categories. You are correct that Amazon has an overall accounting of KU expenses and income, including how much KU subscribers spend overall in comparison to non-subscribers. Amazon is ALWAYS measuring and tracking and adjusting. It will always be a moving target as they try new things, abandon what doesn't work. Try others.

This is a tough business. Is the deck stacked against any new indie? (Or indeed any established one?) Yes it is by virtue of competition of all sorts. What you have is a shot. There are all kinds of decisions to be made. You hope you guess right more often than wrong, and that you're capable of writing books lots of people want to read--Job One. If you aren't, all the promo in the world won't help that much. It's a nebulous thing to get hold of but a critical one. Then you just move forward one decision at a time, try to evaluate as best you can, and try to learn when you fall short.

At least that's what I do.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Amazon obviously has an ideal page rate that they want to pay. I don't understand why they don't just set that price and not change the page rate every month. Even if it was .004, or .0035 or .003 at least authors would know what it was and there would be no having to wait until after the fact to see what they decided the rate was going to be. That's the part that frustrates me. Just set a freaking rate and stick with it!


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## firstdraft (Apr 22, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Amazon also has deals with some publishers to put books in KU. And there are the aforementioned imprints. Neither of those is paid from the KU pot.


But they all reduce the pot!

There are numerous ways amazon and publishers agree to put what readers think are "tier 1" books in KU. All of these "trade secret" methods (e.g. bonuses, monthly "rent" charges, bonus page/book rates) reduce the total size of the pot and increase the number of page reads. That is why page reads have been increasing at a greater rate than the pot. Amazon is just making sure that there is still some pot growth while boosting their "tier 1" catalog. Publishers for a lot of content still try to milk amazon for a huge chunk of their KU revenue.

Anyone that thinks scammers are the problem needs to go write more fiction.

And for those that make more money by leaving KU, amazon doesn't care either cause they make more money too when you drop out and sell more out of KU (unless your book is a best seller that attractes KU subscribers). It is in amazon's best interest for you to choose the most profitable method for youself as it too will be the most profitable for them.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Atlantisatheart said:


> Amazon has played a wonderful game with indies. First, we provide content and we draw people into their store. We show them what sells and how to market it so that they could develop their own publishing company, whilst helping to make them zillions. Clever Amazon.
> 
> Now they can afford to pay us peanuts they will slowly take more and more. I do hope another Amazon comes along to kick them in the b***s before the well runs dry for us.


We showed Amazon how to market? Seriously? Amazon was the biggest book store in the world and selling quite happily and profitably for years before kdp was ever thought of. I suspect Amazon researched the number of new authors who had good material and talent, but gave up due to the major frustration of trying to get past the limited resources available. They thought they could make something out of it, and they did, and they gave something back.

To say we showed them how to market our books (which, btw, they don't do unless we're already selling loads) is well, one of the strangest remarks I've heard of.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

firstdraft said:


> But they all reduce the pot!
> 
> There are numerous ways amazon and publishers agree to put what readers think are "tier 1" books in KU. All of these "trade secret" methods (e.g. bonuses, monthly "rent" charges, bonus page/book rates) reduce the total size of the pot and increase the number of page reads. That is why page reads have been increasing at a greater rate than the pot. Amazon is just making sure that there is still some pot growth while boosting their "tier 1" catalog. Publishers for a lot of content still try to milk amazon for a huge chunk of their KU revenue.
> 
> ...


Again: I ask for the evidence you have of these secret bonuses paid to indies. I'm a fairly good sized author in KU. I know many others. None of us has a secret deal. The KU pot does NOT include APub books or traditionally published books. They are paid royalties, not per page. Where the heck are you getting these ideas?

I also would ask you whether you would subscribe to a subscription service that included no bigger authors. How well would Netflix do if it didn't have any mainstream Hollywood successes in it? Do you seriously think there'd be any KU subscriber base if there weren't some marquee names?

Do what works for you. You are correct that Amazon doesn't care about individual-you unless you are a very, very big name indeed. But seriously, folks--every minute you spend thinking about what Amazon "should" do is a minute you should spend on figuring out what you CAN do.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

The first change I would like to see: The KU page rate needs to be announced in advance for the coming month and not after the month has passed. Since Amazon essentially controls the KU page rate by pumping money into the so-called "pot", they ought to stop the crap pretense and announce the KU page rate for the coming month and allow authors to drop out for that month if they want. Will Amazon lose money if they do that? I don't see how. Meanwhile the system will be fairer, since authors will know in advance how much they are getting for their work. An alternative would be to give authors a guarantee against actual earnings, similar to an advance against royalties in a trade contract. In any case, forcing authors to commit themselves to a "TOS" contract without  knowing what they will be paid is effectively a swindle taking advantage especially of the vulnerability of authors.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> The first change I would like to see: The KU page rate needs to be announced in advance for the coming month and not after the month has passed. Since Amazon essentially controls the KU page rate by pumping money into the so-called "pot", they ought to stop the crap pretense and announce the KU page rate for the coming month and allow authors to drop out for that month if they want. Will Amazon lose money if they do that? I don't see how. Meanwhile the system will be fairer, since authors will know in advance how much they are getting for their work. An alternative would be to give authors a guarantee against actual earnings, similar to an advance against royalties in a trade contract. In any case, forcing authors to commit themselves to a "TOS" contract without knowing what they will be paid is effectively a swindle taking advantage especially of the vulnerability of authors.


Then don't participate.

It does not matter what you think Amazon should do, or what you'd like to see. It doesn't matter what I think or what I'd like. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks or what we'd like. Your, my, anybody's choice is in how to adjust your strategy to accommodate what is, however you feel about it. That's what businesspeople do, and that's what you are.

Also, folks--if you'd like to sell better, to get your stuff borrowed more--get professional covers. Get professional editing. Get help with your blurbs. Give yourself your best shot.

And now I'm seriously out. Got a book to write!


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## firstdraft (Apr 22, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Again: I ask for the evidence you have of these secret bonuses paid to indies. I'm a fairly good sized author in KU. I know many others. None of us has a secret deal. The KU pot does NOT include APub books or traditionally published books. They are paid royalties, not per page. Where the heck are you getting these ideas?
> 
> I also would ask you whether you would subscribe to a subscription service that included no bigger authors. How well would Netflix do if it didn't have any mainstream Hollywood successes in it? Do you seriously think there'd be any KU subscriber base if there weren't some marquee names?
> 
> Do what works for you. You are correct that Amazon doesn't care about individual-you unless you are a very, very big name indeed. But seriously, folks--every minute you spend thinking about what Amazon "should" do is a minute you should spend on figuring out what you CAN do.


At no point have I talked about indies getting deals. The deals are all with the publishers. All these deals are slowly increasing the share of "popular" publisher owned books revenue vs the share of the indies pot from KU. When more books like 1984 and Harry Potter enter KU the less revenue there will be for indies. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Then don't participate.
> 
> It does not matter what you think Amazon should do, or what you'd like to see. It doesn't matter what I think or what I'd like. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks or what we'd like. Your, my, anybody's choice is in how to adjust your strategy to accommodate what is, however you feel about it. That's what businesspeople do, and that's what you are.


Who are you to tell me not to participate? Why don't you address the swindle?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

firstdraft said:


> At no point have I talked about indies getting deals. The deals are all with the publishers. All these deals are slowly increasing the share of "popular" publisher owned books revenue vs the share of the indies pot from KU. When more books like 1984 and Harry Potter enter KU the less revenue there will be for indies. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.


But all we are saying is that traditional publishers don't have the same deal as indies and don't share in the same pot.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Who are you to tell me not to participate? Why don't you address the swindle?


What swindle? How can there be a swindle when you know what you are signing up to when you sign up (at least, you do if you read the ToS)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Who are you to tell me not to participate? Why don't you address the swindle?


What is your choice? Your choice is to participate or not to participate.

Amazon makes the terms perfectly clear. They announce the rate per page read after the month is over. Many indies I know, when KU was announced, said the same thing you are--"No, thanks." They opted out, and they've stayed out.

You are right. You are perfectly free to participate in what you see as a swindle. My question is why you would.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Doglover said:


> What swindle? How can there be a swindle when you know what you are signing up to when you sign up (at least, you do if you read the ToS)


You're sidestepping. Listen up. The Amazon corporation is a member of our society and constrained by the necessity to do no harm. If they don't like that constraint, let them move to another society. Get it? It's a swindle to suck in vulnerable authors with a payment system that's a lie and doesn't exist anywhere else.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> You are right. You are perfectly free to participate in what you see as a swindle. My question is why you would.


The obviouis answer is that at the present time Amazon is a monopoly. There is no choice. They own the market and they have no competition.


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## firstdraft (Apr 22, 2017)

Doglover said:


> But all we are saying is that traditional publishers don't have the same deal as indies and don't share in the same pot.


So? You can all ignore that pub content is taking a bigger slice of the KU pie though.

Amazon has one revenue stream for KU. Subscribers. As KU continiues to grow there is a higher percentage of costs going to the publishers as they grow their catalog, which is reflected in the lower per page rate for you indies as more pub content fills up KU. Indies used to dominate KU thus pulled in a higher share. To keep KU profitable indies share will just continue to fall as trad pub takes over KU, unless indie books actually start to be on mass more popular than publishers' content.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> You're sidestepping. Listen up. The Amazon corporation is a member of our society and constrained by the necessity to do no harm. If they don't like that constraint, let them move to another society. Get it? It's a swindle to suck in vulnerable authors with a payment system that's a lie and doesn't exist anywhere else.


I'm not aware of such a constraint. Plenty of corporations do harm, generally not maliciously, but if they don't break the law, there's no constraint. (Monsanto and Walmart would be a couple of easy examples.) What law do you feel Amazon has broken?

In fact, a U.S. company's fiduciary responsibility is to act in the best interests of its shareholders. That and the law thing are about it.

Many, many indies make seven- and eight-figure incomes without being in KU with any of their books. It is certainly possible.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> What is your choice? Your choice is to participate or not to participate.
> 
> Amazon makes the terms perfectly clear. They announce the rate per page read after the month is over. Many indies I know, when KU was announced, said the same thing you are--"No, thanks." They opted out, and they've stayed out.
> 
> You are right. You are perfectly free to participate in what you see as a swindle. My question is why you would.


Imagine telling someone that if they don't like the way their electric company operates, they can go without electricity. Youk need to step away from the idea that all is fair in business because there is always a choice not to do business. That's a prescription for a crap society.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Imagine telling someone that if they don't like the way their electric company operates, they can go without electricity. Youk need to step away from the idea that all is fair in business because there is always a choice not to do business. That's a prescription for a crap society.


Well, in the UK if we don't like the way the electricity company operates, we can find another electricity company and frequently do. Besides, your argument is flawed. You can stay selling on Amazon without being in select, the choice is yours.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Modi Gliani, what do you suggest?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Imagine telling someone that if they don't like the way their electric company operates, they can go without electricity. Youk need to step away from the idea that all is fair in business because there is always a choice not to do business. That's a prescription for a crap society.


Ah. It's a philosophical/moral point. Well, as I said--the most successful indies are succeeding without KU, whether for philosophical or pragmatic reasons, so that's certainly an option. It isn't necessary to join Select to succeed. It's necessary to put out books lots of people want to read, present them professionally, and market them effectively, however that looks for you. Alternatively, you could pursue tradpub.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Doglover said:


> Well, in the UK if we don't like the way the electricity company operates, we can find another electricity company and frequently do. Besides, your argument is flawed. You can stay selling on Amazon without being in select, the choice is yours.


This is not the UK and Amazon is an American company. Electric companies here are local monopolies. As far as Select is concerned. if you are not in Select you get second class treatment by KDP. Or haven't you noticed?

_please, no politics.. --Betsy_


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Modi Gliani said:


> The obviouis answer is that at the present time Amazon is a monopoly. There is no choice. They own the market and they have no competition.


This simply isn't true. KU is one option, but as others have (repeatedly) stated, it's not compulsory. Amazon is one market that dominates in one country, it's not the entirety of the publishing world. There are plenty of authors who do well wide, just as there are plenty of authors who do well in KU. You need to run your business in a way that meets your goals and that means being open minded about your strategy.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> This is not the UK and Amazon is an American company. Electric companies here are local monopolies. As far as Select is concerned. if you are not in Select you get second class treatment by KDP. Or haven't you noticed?
> 
> _please, no politics.. --Betsy_


No, I haven't noticed, but then all my books bar two are in select. BTW This forum is international and so is select. It doesn't matter where I live, I can still either use select or not use it.


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## Hoop (Nov 22, 2014)

"Youk need to step away from the idea that all is fair in business because there is always a choice not to do business. That's a prescription for a crap society."

How is whining about a completely voluntary business relationship, while there ARE plenty of competitors and you do not need to participate in said relationship, the key to making society better?
Seriously. Get off the victim train.
It's your business. Run it like one, or don't. You need to step away from the idea that your ego has any business being near a monetary decision.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Once you're in it, you HAVE to participate in it for at least three months where they keep bleeding money from you.

It's also not an ego thing. IF you had a human business partner who suddenly altered your profit sharing agreement, this would certainly not be 'whining'. People only allow it because we've raised 'being a successful business' to idolatry status.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Going Incognito said:


> Modi Gliani, what do you suggest?


What do I suggest about what? What started this brouhaha was my suggestion that Amazon announce the KU page rate for the following month in advance. That got me told if I don't like the system, go somewhere else.

Why should I go somewhere else when I've made a hell of a lot of money in Select? My guess is I've made more money here than anyone telling me to use "business strategy".

All I'm saying is that announcing the payment rate after the month instead of before the month is exploitation, considering that there is no mechanism for audits and that Amazon gives out little info.

If you like the arrangement, that's your choice. But my suggestion should be discussed and not dismissed by telling me not to participate.

I have been in Select for years and I don't intend to go anywhere because I make money here and because Amazon controls 85% of the ebook market and because the platform is easy to use. That does not mean the system has no flaws.


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## LinaG (Jun 18, 2012)

My Neice was just telling me they'd been assigned "Knock Me Up, Boss" in Freshman English.  She's dreading having to read it.  I suggested she watch the movie with Gregory Peck as the "Boss." I think he won an Oscar for that role... Or am I wrong?


Ugh!


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## Wysardry (Jun 24, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> What started this brouhaha was my suggestion that Amazon announce the KU page rate for the following month in advance.


Amazon can't do that because part of the equation used to set the rate is how many page views there have been in the month across Amazon, and they can't know that until the month is over. I also suspect that the pot size is based on how much money KU subscribers have paid in for that month, which they also cannot know ahead of time.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Wysardry said:


> Amazon can't do that because part of the equation used to set the rate is how many page views there have been in the month across Amazon, and they can't know that until the month is over. I also suspect that the pot size is based on how much money KU subscribers have paid in for that month, which they also cannot know ahead of time.


We don't know what they know and what don't know since they don't tell us. All they need to do is set the rate based on last'month's stats. Since they essentially control the rate by the money they put in each month, my guess is they already know what the next month rate will be. At the moment what they do is "calculate" the rate based on secret information which they adjust with the money they say they add to the pot. That's a nasty game, their cards closed and your cards on the table. The rate should be announced in advance. I see no good reason not to do it, except maybe a need to get away with what they can get away with. If they lose some money basing the rate on last month's stats, they will make it up down the line because it will average out. There are no earthquakes in KU.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

For those asking if there's proof that the imprints and trade are counted separately, all you have to do is ask. Amazon has been open from the beginning when you ask. They're not coming from the same pot.
As for the rest, I'm not happy with the rate. I estimate the falling rate has cost me six figures since the spring. Unfortunately, a lot of what I see is people asking for wish fulfillment rather than something that is in Amazon's best interests. The thing is, Amazon is ALWAYS going to do what's in their best interests because that's the way it works.
We, as business owners, have to do what's in our best interest. That's why I'm taking one series wide (although it will take months for all the books to clear) and going from there. I'm certainly not pulling everything out of KU since I'm annoyed with the rate but I'm going to at least test one series at a time.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

> The thing that always astounds me is how little Amazon care.


Monopolies don't care unless they're regulated. In my many years in trade publishing, I met only one publisher who cared about authors as authors and people. Agents and acquiring editors and publishers, in general, do not care. Amazon does not care. They play the business game to suit themselves, at the moment writing the rules. But that does not mean we should take it without protest. They supposedly changed from KU! to KU2 as a result of protest.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Ah. It's a philosophical/moral point.


Which is what happens in an unregulated market like a black box subscription service 

I'd agree with your "free market" approach, and do at present because that is what we are dealing with. But in a sane world a vendor doing what zon is doing with KU would be required to have an independent third-party verify its numbers (at least putting in place some protections for the suppliers).

And zon has already lost in Japan over forcing authors to sell lower on zon than anywhere else. And they are fighting battles in the EU on the same front. Just because people can "choose" not to sell on zon doesn't give zon the right to do whatever it wants. There are laws and I suspect KU probably bends a whole lot of them (just that no one has challenged them yet). There's no way the page-flip issue is legal (unless the TOS clearly states authors will not be paid for people who read in page-flip, which I imagine it does not).

Anyway, I 100% agree, you can't change the world you can only react and adapt to it. But that doesn't mean if the local chemical company is dumping toxins in the river (because there's no regulator) that you should just move to another state (because no one is forcing you to live where you are). I mean, yes, that's actually what you should do to save yourself. But there's nothing wrong either with saying that what is going on is bullcrap. (and yes, the analogy is hyperbolic).

Ultimately, this situation is going to take more time for people to sort it all out in their head. It's highly complex with variables none of us can really know. I think as rates hit .0035 though, people are going to instinctively realize zon is in the process of strangling them and what they thought was their benefactor is now transforming into their oppressor. Then people will bail on KU and zon will start to suffer some real damage to its brand within the author community (what we're seeing right now is just the tip of the iceburg).

This industry is brutal and is only going to get more so in the coming years.


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## Wysardry (Jun 24, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> That's true, BUT they have enough data now to either provide a "projected" or "minimum rate" a month ahead.


By now, so do indie authors (as a whole). If all you want is an estimation of the rate, start a thread to gather the data and each month someone can work out what the rate is likely to be.

If Amazon do the guessing, we'll just have threads like this from people complaining every time the estimate is inaccurate.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

two comments:

1: corporations answer to shareholders, not the greater good

2: Amanda testing a series wide is the first indication I've seen that KU is actually in trouble


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's why I'm taking one series wide (although it will take months for all the books to clear) and going from there.


Ask them to pull the whole series at once.

I suggested to them it wasn't fair to readers for people to get part way through and find random books missing.

They pulled them all for me at the same time.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> Ask them to pull the whole series at once.
> 
> I suggested to them it wasn't fair to readers for people to get part way through and find random books missing.
> 
> They pulled them all for me at the same time.


No. I agreed to the Select terms when I enrolled the books. I won't ask for special treatment. It will take me a bit of time to get everything ready to load them to other vendors anyway. I'm going to NINC in October. The books should all be out by December. The series I'm taking wide is my worst-selling series. I'm not expecting much.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

GeneDoucette said:


> two comments:
> 
> 1: corporations answer to shareholders, not the greater good
> 
> 2: Amanda testing a series wide is the first indication I've seen that KU is actually in trouble


I wouldn't get too excited. It's my worst-selling series and it's completely finished so there is very little risk taking it wide. In truth, I'm more interested in going wide with a series here or there for BookBubs than as a protest against KU. My income streams are still extremely healthy under KU.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

GeneDoucette said:


> two comments:
> 
> 1: corporations answer to shareholders, not the greater good
> 
> 2: Amanda testing a series wide is the first indication I've seen that KU is actually in trouble


Corporations operate in society and without society they cannot exist. That jerk Milton Friedman (he's dead) blew a bugle that corporations have no social responsibility. All wrong. The idea that Amazon can do as it likes because it's a corp with shareholders is all wrong. Corporation execs and their shareholders need to understand they operate in a society at large and if they harm that society the corporation deserves to be extinguished.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Corporations operate in society and without society they cannot exist. That jerk Milton Friedman (he's dead) blew a bugle that corporations have no social responsibility. All wrong. The idea that Amazon can do as it likes because it's a corp with shareholders is all wrong. Corporation execs and their shareholders need to understand they operate in a society at large and if they harm that society the corporation deserves to be extinguished.


If Amazon hadn't done as it liked when it decided to give a worldwide platform to writers who might never get published otherwise, we would all be worse off.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Doglover said:


> If Amazon hadn't done as it liked when it decided to give a worldwide platform to writers who might never get published otherwise, we would all be worse off.


So? Does that mean they have a license to do anything they like, even if it's harmful? I like Amazon. I buy lots of things from them. It's a very efficient online retail operation. The idea of KDP was marvelous. But now 10 years later, the way they have been handling KDP is turning out to be a bummer and some changes are needed.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> So? Does that mean they have a license to do anything they like, even if it's harmful? I like Amazon. I buy lots of things from them. It's a very efficient online retail operation. The idea of KDP was marvelous. But now 10 years later, the way they have been handling KDP is turning out to be a bummer and some changes are needed.


But it's up to them to identify and make those changes, not us. Amazon give us a great platform; if they want to move the goalposts, well, they are their goalposts. If my bank decide to charge me for keeping my money in my account, I can either pay up or find a bank that's still free. Either way, my leaving won't change their mind.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Doglover said:


> But it's up to them to identify and make those changes, not us. Amazon give us a great platform; if they want to move the goalposts, well, they are their goalposts. If my bank decide to charge me for keeping my money in my account, I can either pay up or find a bank that's still free. Either way, my leaving won't change their mind.


But this isn't how business works. It only seems to work this way on the Internet because governments haven't fully wrapped their head around how to regulate it.

And regardless, what's commonplace today doesn't mean it's right. Society is a constant struggle of ideas (which ultimately get codified as laws); what's legal today can quickly become illegal tomorrow.

Rightly or wrongly, zon can do what it's doing. Our only options are either to participate or not. So that's the simplicity of the situation.

But as a topic for discussion, there's plenty of room for differing views beyond that simplicity. Views which may well reflect what the market will look like in the future.

I think that's what's creating a lot of disconnect. Some people are commenting from the perspective of what we're dealing with today and others are discussing the issue beyond just present limitations.

Either way, any time something becomes this contentious, there's a problem 

As I've always said, those of us wide would love it if everyone would stay in KU. That only makes our lives easier. I don't need all you guys stealing my Kobo promo spots


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## Wysardry (Jun 24, 2016)

Seneca42 said:


> As I've always said, those of us wide would love it if everyone would stay in KU.


I'm sure those in KU would also love it if everyone else went wide.


----------



## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Wysardry said:


> I'm sure those in KU would also love it if everyone else went wide.


hehe, true enough!

Which ultimately does reveal the simplest of all truths... unless you have a great book, life is only going to get more brutal. For those with great books, you'll do well in KU or wide (it's just a matter of which maximizes your revenue and what sits best with you from a business model perspective).

I do believe the SP industry is heading towards a "clearing the decks" phase where a lot of authors (not all obviously) will realize this is just too brutal an industry to pursue beyond a hobby.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Wysardry said:


> Amazon can't do that because part of the equation used to set the rate is how many page views there have been in the month across Amazon, and they can't know that until the month is over. I also suspect that the pot size is based on how much money KU subscribers have paid in for that month, which they also cannot know ahead of time.


There is no reason why the can't set the rate in advance. They won't because it's shifting risk back onto authors rather than the KDP department, not they absolutely can.

IMO, underpaying is a bar business strategy, not a good one, because it leads to high turnover, which ends up costing you more. This almost always hold true for employees, but where or not it hold true for authors is another story.

I have no control over what Amazon does and I know that. It doesn't stop me from speculating about what they sold do it complaining when they don't do things in my and KU's best interests like stop scammers. I think we all know we can't control anyone's actions but are own. "Complaining" still has value in and of itself.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Doglover said:


> But it's up to them to identify and make those changes, not us. Amazon give us a great platform; if they want to move the goalposts, well, they are their goalposts. If my bank decide to charge me for keeping my money in my account, I can either pay up or find a bank that's still free. Either way, my leaving won't change their mind.


You cannot ignore that Amazon controls 85% of the ebook market. Other platforms are not on an equal footing with Amazon. The reality is that to do well on the other platforms, you need to work much harder (and risk more) than you do on the Amazon platform. So it's not a question of an easy change from one bank to another bank. Not at all.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm shaking my head at the number of people who feel the government ought to be running Amazon.  To force them to "do good."  

Oh my.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

How about we bring back gatekeepers too?  So we can reduce the competition?


----------



## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

MyraScott said:


> I'm shaking my head at the number of people who feel the government ought to be running Amazon. To force them to "do good."
> 
> Oh my.


Ya, laws suck. Stupid government forcing people to drive at certain speeds and not drink before driving. Or making surgeries more expensive by forcing people to have "licenses". GRRRR! So annoying.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Welcome to the digital age.  You are content providers. 

You sell your content through Amazon, they distribute it, collect monies due, keep a percentage as agreed upon and send you the rest.

They also offer a program that allows to provide your content to readers at a pay-per-page rate based on market conditions. In return for enrolling in this program, your content is likely to be exposed to more readers. It's a totally voluntary opportunity that has made thousands of dollars for thousands of authors. 

No one is forcing you into a contract with a gun to your head.  Heck, if you want out of the contract, just let them know.  I've never heard of them denying anyone who asked to be let out of KDP Select early.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> Ya, laws suck. Stupid government forcing people to drive at certain speeds and not drink before driving. Or making surgeries more expensive by forcing people to have "licenses". GRRRR! So annoying.


LOL. Yes, Amazon is going to kill random people with these low payouts! People who weren't even reading! Innocent bystanders! Someone STOP THEM NOW!


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## EllieDee (May 28, 2017)

> The problem is KU. Now the guy running the fair says he'll pay you based on the total purchases at the fair. He won't say how much was bought, nor will he provide any proof that you're being paid fairly.


You put your finger on something that has always bothered me about KU. The lack of transparency. From what I understand, authors aren't even told how many individual people are borrowing each book. 1000 page reads could be 10 people finishing a 100 page book or 1000 people who didn't make it to page two. Both of these data points would change how that book is packaged, marketed, revised, or even nudge an author toward writing in a different genre. 'Fairly' is kind of a vague term, but it is unfair that authors have to make decisions about their business on such incomplete information.

I wish Amazon would be more open and honest about ... a lot of things. The page reads. Give some advance warning about changes coming down the pipeline. Take feedback from authors instead of sending it into the Round File. Let readers and authors propose more subcategories so we can better distribute or find the stories we want. I could go on.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> At best, you're *producing *for a *distributor* with the worst contract terms ever.


I really don't think many people understand this, but it's 100% a perfect definition of selling on KU.


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## KylieG (Oct 30, 2015)

MmmmmPie said:


> Interesting. Would you mind elaborating? How much of that $1200 is from Amazon? Thanks for any info!


I was only talking about Amazon and not the money from other outlets, which falls between $200 and $800 per month. However, the money I'm making at Amazon has doubled since I left KU. I can only assume it was cannibalizing sales for me.


----------



## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Except no one is forcing you to work with Amazon.

You can produce content for YouTube.  Except... you get paid a variable rate based on advertising and demand. 

You can produce content designed for Google Adsense... whoops, you never know what you are going to get paid.  It's based on market conditions, advertiser bids, traffic to your site...  hmnn. 

You can produce content aimed at selling affiliate products on Amazon. Oh wait- more variable payouts. 

It's like... this is a digital marketplace or something! 

Easiest thing to do?  Control your own price.  Create your own demand.  Sell your book through Amazon but unenroll in KDP Select. It's really easy to do.  Or keep comparing it to old school delivery methods and crying that no one buys buggy whips and bonnets anymore.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

MyraScott said:


> I'm shaking my head at the number of people who feel the government ought to be running Amazon. To force them to "do good."
> 
> Oh my.


Who suggested that?


----------



## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I wouldn't get too excited. It's my worst-selling series and it's completely finished so there is very little risk taking it wide. In truth, I'm more interested in going wide with a series here or there for BookBubs than as a protest against KU. My income streams are still extremely healthy under KU.


I've read through ten pages of this monthly bloodletting about the most recent KU rate. The only real news I've seen is that Amanda is taking her worst-performing series out of KU. I haven't seen any of the other huge self-published authors do something similar, even for their worst-performing series.

Until huge authors like Amanda start taking their best-performing series out of KU, I don't think Amazon will care a bit. I plan to spend my time writing books instead of writing on Kboards about the role of tech companies in modern society. But that's just me.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> What do I suggest about what? What started this brouhaha was my suggestion that Amazon announce the KU page rate for the following month in advance. That got me told if I don't like the system, go somewhere else.
> 
> Why should I go somewhere else when I've made a hell of a lot of money in Select? My guess is I've made more money here than anyone telling me to use "business strategy".
> 
> ...


Uh ... I'm not sure I believe you've made more money in Select than I have. I certainly don't believe the system has no flaws. I doubt anybody does. I have also seen countless threads in every forum over the years,
except the one with the most successsful folks in it, talking about what Amazon "should" do. So far, it's done none of those things. Thinking about what I can do is a much more productive use of my time. You don't have to do that. But using one's time productively is a pretty big success factor.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> You cannot ignore that Amazon controls 85% of the ebook market. Other platforms are not on an equal footing with Amazon. The reality is that to do well on the other platforms, you need to work much harder (and risk more) than you do on the Amazon platform. So it's not a question of an easy change from one bank to another bank. Not at all.


No. They have 85% of the indie ebook market. There are five enormous trad publishers out there as well as APub and many small publishers. Lots of options. There is audio and there are translations as well. Success in publishing isn't easy. It's getting harder. That's why I'm diversified, but it's also why my primary focus is on writing hooky books that Etsy sticky over months and years. The more I do that, the more power I have, the more control over my own destiny.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> I really don't think many people understand this, but it's 100% a perfect definition of selling on KU.


You aren't producing for them. You're producing for yourself and agreeing to distribute through them. Lots of people are making lots of money without doing so. They find issues with other vendors also however.

It's a tough business. My income has been pretty consistent for four years. I think that's unusual however. If you're doing well, bank your money and consider doing some experimenting so you're better set up to ride out the next change. You won't get to choose what it is.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Arches said:


> I've read through ten pages of this monthly bloodletting about the most recent KU rate. The only real news I've seen is that Amanda is taking her worst-performing series out of KU. I haven't seen any of the other huge self-published authors do something similar, even for their worst-performing series.
> 
> Until huge authors like Amanda start taking their best-performing series out of KU, I don't think Amazon will care a bit. I plan to spend my time writing books instead of writing on Kboards about the role of tech companies in modern society. But that's just me.


I have. Same as Amanda. One series. I did well enough to consider experimenting more. I'm sure others have too. It's not a protest. It's continual adjustment to the market. BookBub has also begun promoting fewer Select books. Is that unfair? Nope it just is.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

TwistedTales said:


> KU is exclusive. If you sign up for KU then you can only distribute through Amazon, therefore you have produced that book for them because they're the only distributor you can use.


Except you can remove it. Just like a vendor might sell to Walmart for a while and then decide not to.

Books are permanent. They don't get used up. Select enrollment is temporary. Honestly these analogies are pretty startling. Back to the book because that is really what gets me paid, however the market changes.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Holy cow, this thread.   


If you don't like Amazon's terms, KU's terms, vote with your feet and be done with it. All of this comparing KU with chemical companies dumping toxins in rivers and electricity providers running monopolies is ridiculous. 


KU isn't the salt mines or the gulag, you don't work for them, you work for you. They're not your keeper. So, again, if you don't like KU then get out. If you don't agree with the way Amazon conducts its business, then don't deal with them. 


It's your business, it's your say. You're not in a prison, you're not trapped, you have the freedom to do as you like. Talking about regulating a company because the way it conducts its business isn't compatible with your business? Are you serious?


If Amazon's business model is too much for you, then go. It's your business, it's your choice. This ain't rocket surgery.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Uh ... I'm not sure I believe you've made more money in Select than I have. I certainly don't believe the system has no flaws. I doubt anybody does. I have also seen countless threads in every forum over the years,
> except the one with the most successsful folks in it, talking about what Amazon "should" do. So far, it's done none of those things. Thinking about what I can do is a much more productive use of my time. You don't have to do that. But using one's time productively is a pretty big success factor.


I don't know who you are and I never said I made more money than you. Good luck to you in your career.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Amazon, despite its many flaws and concerns to us all, is still the leading retailer of ebooks. I think the decision to be in/out of KU is really determined by an author's goals and audience. I know the historical romance audience in KU is strong and that's what makes me stay. The added perks of extra visibility and promo days are really, really nice to this newbie author. Page reads also make up for my poopy algae sucking sales. At least at this point.

But what does the future hold for us authors still trying to build a back list? Still trying to gain traction? If KU is determined by audience, but your morality meter is telling you to git, then morality wins, right?

I understand why people are upset. Hell, I have a KU subscription that I rarely use because the books I want to read aren't in KU. Just my luck. I don't even know why I have the subscription. I used to read a lot of craft books but the ones in KU right now aren't connecting with me, so I've given up. My husband pays for my KU and I don't even use it. So as a reader, it's not showing me its value.

As an author, it's helped me gain a bit of traction and visibility. I need to write more freaking books, LONG ones. I know KU readers love historical romance so yeah, it's a feasible option for me to remain in the program. I'm so new at this I can't say much about anything though, because I'm still in the early stages of learning publishing and how to run a business.

What I do know is that Amazon owes me nothing. I'd probably get a worse deal with trad pub...but hey, they wouldn't take me! I couldn't sell a manuscript to save my life! Amazon stepped in and gave me the chance. Does that mean their system isn't flawed? It's totally flawed. I don't understand their decisions and just shake my head. But until I have a strong back list, or until another retailer catches up to Amazon, KU seems like the best program for what I write. But it definitely isn't a solid long term business strategy. Nope.



Usedtoposthere said:


> No. They have 85% of the indie ebook market. There are five enormous trad publishers out there as well as APub and many small publishers. Lots of options. There is audio and there are translations as well. Success in publishing isn't easy. It's getting harder. That's why I'm diversified, *but it's also why my primary focus is on writing hooky books that Etsy sticky over months and years.* The more I do that, the more power I have, the more control over my own destiny.


This is key! Long gone are the days when I tell myself it's okay to just write whatever comes to mind. I've been thinking a lot a lot a lot about how to write hookier stories. Emotions. I want to make readers feel strong emotions. To me, that's what hook is all about. That and nail-biting: "holy cow, will they end up together? Will they not? Damn it! I want to know now!"


----------



## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

GeneDoucette said:


> two comments:
> 
> Amanda testing a series wide is the first indication I've seen that KU is actually in trouble


Agreed.


----------



## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

jaehaerys said:


> KU isn't the salt mines or the gulag, you don't work for them, you work for you. They're not your keeper.


If you're in KU then you work for zon. By definition, due to exclusivity, you are not allowed to work for anyone else (and obviously, I'm interchanging the word "work" with "sell").

Yes, you can leave KU, so you are technically choosing to work for zon only. And that's all anyone has ever said or been discussing, which is: what exactly is the nature of KU? One camp thinks it's a monopolistic, margin-crushing program that takes advantage of indies. Another thinks it's simply a segmented market that you choose to either sell to or you don't.

Both are right (for today) and so the discussion value is merely what the situation might be in the future. Hence it has value because understand what you're "in" with KU is sort of important if you want to make good decisions for the long haul.

Not sure why people want to always shut down dialogue with regards to KU or why people get their feathers so ruffled when people express anything but support for it.


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

MyraScott said:


> I'm shaking my head at the number of people who feel the government ought to be running Amazon. To force them to "do good."
> 
> Oh my.


I'm ALSO shaking my head at anyone believing outside sources are responsible for their happiness, success, wealth, etc. We have college students needing a petting zoo because a speaker arrives on campus that they don't want to hear (just skip the speech). We have people wanting schools to teach children morality (usurping parental responsibility). We have customers insisting stores be controlled to operate they way the customer wants (KU authors). Get real, people. We are each responsible for ourselves. Do the best you can with the talent you have in the endeavor of your choice. Take the menial job until you can move up to the one you want. Practice your art or skill set until you're better. Learn the business environment and figure out how YOU can make it better for yourself. No one can change outside entities. One can only change oneself. And if you find out your current endeavor doesn't match your skill set, then it may be time to pursue another path. BUT don't blame it on corporations whose only purpose for existing is to make a profit: their profit, not yours. You have to do what you see as best for you. (My apologies to the mods if this sounds political. I don't mean it that way. I simply used some common examples.)


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Sapphire said:


> I'm ALSO shaking my head at anyone believing outside sources are responsible for their happiness, success, wealth, etc. We have college students needing a petting zoo because a speaker arrives on campus that they don't want to hear (just skip the speech). We have people wanting schools to teach children morality (usurping parental responsibility). We have customers insisting stores be controlled to operate they way the customer wants (KU authors). Get real, people. We are each responsible for ourselves. Do the best you can with the talent you have in the endeavor of your choice. Take the menial job until you can move up to the one you want. Practice your art or skill set until you're better. Learn the business environment and figure out how YOU can make it better for yourself. No one can change outside entities. One can only change oneself. And if you find out your current endeavor doesn't match your skill set, then it may be time to pursue another path. BUT don't blame it on corporations whose only purpose for existing is to make a profit: their profit, not yours. You have to do what you see as best for you. (My apologies to the mods if this sounds political. I don't mean it that way. I simply used some common examples.)


Really? So you don't believe in any lines?

Should we have kids working the coal mines? I mean, society has no obligation to any kind of "standard of living". It's just dog eat dog. And hey, the kid would starve otherwise. Do your time in the mines, and work your way up from there. If you don't like it, go work somewhere else.

And no I'm not saying zon is a salt mine, or coal mine, or any of that stuff (I'm being hyperbolic to take this ideology to its logical conclusion, and also to show that everyone *does* believe in lines). But this libertarian "corporations should be allowed to do anything they want" is mind-boggling to me. But maybe it's because I'm Canadian hehe. We're not as "free market" minded as the US.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Many people work for companies requiring exclusivity to avoid conflicts of interest. Many people receive a base salary plus a bonus. They have no idea what that bonus is until the end of the year, quarter, month, whatever. So, they don't really know how much they will earn until AFTER the pay period.

My husband once had a job that was 100% bonus based on profit. That was scary, especially since he was the primary earner for our family. Nevertheless, he knew what the terms were and he accepted the risk. Someone else might choose to go elsewhere to work instead. Which camp to you fall into?


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Seneca42 said:


> Really? So you don't believe in any lines?
> 
> Should we have kids working the coal mines? I mean, society has no obligation to any kind of "standard of living". It's just dog eat dog. And hey, the kid would starve otherwise. Do your time in the mines, and work your way up from there. If you don't like it, go work somewhere else.
> 
> And no I'm not saying zon is a salt mine, or coal mine, or any of that stuff (I'm being hyperbolic to take this ideology to its logical conclusion, and also to show that everyone *does* believe in lines). But this libertarian "corporations should be allowed to do anything they want" is mind-boggling to me. But maybe it's because I'm Canadian hehe. We're not as "free market" minded as the US.


You read far more into my words than what I wrote.


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

jaehaerys said:


> Holy cow, this thread.


Eh, we've had better ones. I didn't see username deleted show up with the 'KU authors are like abuse victims' post.

I see it the way I've seen it since the beginning of KU--it's a 3 month deal. I put my books in and every three months I re-evaluate. If I don't like it, I pull the books. So far, haven't pulled the books yet other than to work around promotion issues. No one is forcing me to use the system or stay in.

As for no competition--maybe someday some indie authors will team up and figure out how to make a better system than KU. There are plenty of indie authors out there who are a) smart and b) armed with disposable income. I'm sure if enough authors cared more about making a true competitor to Amazon than b*tching about KU, we'd see some real competition to Amazon and the other ebook sellers. Til that happens? Looks like Amazon is the only company really focused on selling the [crap] out of ebooks. I'm content to go exclusive with the market leader for now.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> I'm ALSO shaking my head at anyone believing outside sources are responsible for their happiness, success, wealth, etc. We have college students needing a petting zoo because a speaker arrives on campus that they don't want to hear (just skip the speech). We have people wanting schools to teach children morality (usurping parental responsibility). We have customers insisting stores be controlled to operate they way the customer wants (KU authors). Get real, people. We are each responsible for ourselves. Do the best you can with the talent you have in the endeavor of your choice. Take the menial job until you can move up to the one you want. Practice your art or skill set until you're better. Learn the business environment and figure out how YOU can make it better for yourself. No one can change outside entities. One can only change oneself. And if you find out your current endeavor doesn't match your skill set, then it may be time to pursue another path. BUT don't blame it on corporations whose only purpose for existing is to make a profit: their profit, not yours. You have to do what you see as best for you. (My apologies to the mods if this sounds political. I don't mean it that way. I simply used some common examples.)


This is just wrong. Tons of studies will tell you that poverty increases sadness. Nothing in life is truly within your control. We're all affected by outside sources. Yes, all we can do is react to them, and we'll be happier if we can recognize what's in our control vs. not, but that doesn't actually give us any control.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that a huge chunk of my career is out of my hands and comes down to whether or not my books get visibility on Amazon, because I've had it happen both ways. Yeah, whining "it's not fair," won't do anything, but neither will skipping the complaint. Either way, it's out of my control.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

The victim mentality in this thread is mind-boggling.

You have more opportunity than any writers_ in history_. But you are chained to the salt mines? Being abused? Because you have a platform to sell _whatever you want_ to write?

Wow.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

MyraScott said:


> The victim mentality in this thread is mind-boggling.
> 
> You have more opportunity than any writers_ in history_. But you are chained to the salt mines? Being abused? Because you have a platform to sell _whatever you want_ to write?
> 
> Wow.


I feel like this deserves a high-five, a cookie, and mojito.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Seneca42 said:


> If you're in KU then you work for zon. By definition, due to exclusivity, you are not allowed to work for anyone else (and obviously, I'm interchanging the word "work" with "sell").


No, you don't work for Amazon. Ever. You work for you. You become exclusive when you agree to become exclusive. It's your choice. There's no one forcing you into that exclusivity, you know that's the deal before you agree to it or not. If you don't want to be exclusive to KU for 90 days, then don't, you do not have to do it...it's your decision. But if you do decide to it doesn't make you their employee, it means you've decided to make an exclusive business arrangement for them for a mutually agreed upon period of time. Sure, they came up with the length of that period of time, but you're the decider.



> Yes, you can leave KU, so you are technically choosing to work for zon only.


Again, no. You're not choosing to work FOR Amazon, technically or otherwise. You're working for you. In this case, you're choosing to work WITH Amazon exclusively for the specified amount of time, there's a difference.



> And that's all anyone has ever said or been discussing, which is: what exactly is the nature of KU? One camp thinks it's a monopolistic, margin-crushing program that takes advantage of indies.


And I would urge anyone in that camp to learn the definition of 'monopoly'. There are choices. If you choose to put your content in KU, you've made the decision to do so. No one else. If you do not like KU, there are other options, and those options exist because there is no monopoly. 

And taking advantage? Really? It's a business looking to squeeze profits to the maximal amount. But is it taking advantage of you? How can it be when you have the say over whether or not you want to accept its terms?



> Both are right (for today)


Wrong. Anyone claiming Amazon has a monopoly is simply wrong.



> and so the discussion value is merely what the situation might be in the future. Hence it has value because understand what you're "in" with KU is sort of important if you want to make good decisions for the long haul.




Understanding what you're in with KU first begins with understanding that when you decide to put your content in KU, you are making that decision of your own volition. It means knowing you can choose to do something else, if you'd like. It means understanding that KU is an Amazon business model that operates as any business does (yours included) and that is to look out for its own ends. Amazon's responsibility in this regard is to itself, just as your business is your responsibility.



> Not sure why people want to always shut down dialogue with regards to KU or why people get their feathers so ruffled when people express anything but support for it.


That's a misrepresentation. It's not wanting to shut down dialogue that is not in support of KU, it's calling out the ridiculousness of dialogue that seeks to compare a program like KU with actual societally damaging activities by corporations where real harm is done to people via externalities, be that through environmental pollution, poisoning, machine defects, physical ailments etc etc. The KU payout rate could drop to 0.00001 or lower and the actual damage to society argument would still be inane. 

It's one thing to say that the KU payout rate sucks, it's another to then leap from there and say it's legally or societally abusive. We're talking about authors signing up (or not) to sell their stories on a particular platform of their own free will. Comparing KU issues with that of Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Banks, or even bringing up labor unions or the words exploitation or mentioning government regulation in the same sentence as a KU payout rate is beyond the pale.

Talk about first-world problems.


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## Wysardry (Jun 24, 2016)

jaehaerys said:


> The KU payout rate could drop to 0.00001 or lower and the actual damage to society argument would still be in*s*ane.


Fixed.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

And for those of us who don't or can't blunt out:


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Folks, I've deleted an inappropriate post and a number of responses to it. Please carry on without that sort of thing.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

jaehaerys said:


> The KU payout rate could drop to 0.00001 or lower and the actual damage to society argument would still be inane.


We'll have to agree to disagree. If zon is making .008 per page and paying out .00001 per page there is societal damage. That's how companies become unstoppable. But again, I'd also be someone that says it's wrong to employ slave labor out of China (while others would say better a slave wage than no wage).

Take to all the mom-and-pop shops that are gone because of Walmart because of these margin-squeezing and offshoring trends. So the only point I've tried to make in this thread is that I personally do not support this type of business practice and feel it is very harmful to society overall... but I also acknowledge there isn't much any one person can do about it.

Anyway, we see this from very different angles. I will say that I'm 100% in agreement that if you don't like KU you can (and probably should) leave. If you stay, it is a bit silly to complain about it.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

MyraScott said:


> The victim mentality in this thread is mind-boggling.
> 
> You have more opportunity than any writers_ in history_. But you are chained to the salt mines? Being abused? Because you have a platform to sell _whatever you want_ to write?
> 
> Wow.


THIS.

By all means, believe what you want, but if you're actually someone on here, lurking as I did six years ago trying to figure out how to build a career, listen to none of this. Out of control entitlement and wild, crazy expectations about what to expect from business partners are not likely to lead to success.

I'm not even going to comment on comparing a 20ish% reduction of payout in a totally optional program that doesn't involve commitments longer than 90 days to children working in mines.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> Anyway, we see this from very different angles. I will say that I'm 100% in agreement that if you don't like KU you can (and probably should) leave. If you stay, it is a bit silly to complain about it.


We're probably on the same side, but I think it's not silly at all to complain about it, since maybe they will hear the complaint and open their eyes. If not, what's lost on our end except words floating into a vacuum?


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> We're probably on the same side, but I think it's not silly at all to complain about it, since maybe they will hear the complaint and open their eyes. If not, what's lost on our end except words floating into a vacuum?


naw, zon's eyes are open. I just mean that complaining won't solve anything. I like these conversations because you get to see different ways people look at the market, which then helps re-evaluate how you see it.

I'm continually let down by the basic matra of "whatevs, don't like it, leave." hehe. I mean, that's fine and all, just doesn't help me formulate new views in anyway; and I don't find it particularly convincing.

But Twisted's comments in various threads have given me food for thought. Which then helps me solidify my own strategies in the market.

But beyond that, complaining doesn't do much if it's not accompanied by action. Unless it lowers your stress and let's you focus on writing  THen it's a good thing. I don't start writing for a couple weeks though, so I'm overly chatty hehe.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't think I "should" be paid more. That's the definition of entitlement. 

I get what my books earn. Tradpub or indie.  If it's not enough, I try to write more appealingly and market better. 

Am I happy with the drop? Of course not. It's a lot less money for me. But that doesn't equate to Amazon doing something "wrong." I know the terms. I can get out if they're unpalatable and (important part) I think I can do better elsewhere. If the drop spurs me to finish this book faster, being unhappy is useful. If it spurs me to gripe and do nothing else, it's as helpful as every other gripe session at every other job. Not much.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> I don't think complaining about these issues means anyone has a victim mentality or is acting entitled. If you dislike the griping then don't read the thread, otherwise let people have their airspace.


It's a forum. We read, we disagree, we post our opinions. Telling people to go away because *you* don't like that they don't share your point of view is an attempt to shut out_ their opinions_.

I can and will continue to be amazed that people who have an opportunity to write and sell books insist that they are being oppressed because of a lending program that is not only completely voluntary, but has actually built comfortable careers for many people who would have never had the chance to publish through traditional publishers.

I do see people asking for special treatment. Asking for a multinational company to "care" specifically about them and how much money they want to make. Complaining about the payout is one thing. Comparing it to slavery in the salt mines and insisting that Amazon is ruining you because of the choices you made to enroll in it, is victim mentality.


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## CopperDog (Sep 17, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> I'm ALSO shaking my head at anyone believing outside sources are responsible for their happiness, success, wealth, etc. We have college students needing a petting zoo because a speaker arrives on campus that they don't want to hear (just skip the speech). We have people wanting schools to teach children morality (usurping parental responsibility). We have customers insisting stores be controlled to operate they way the customer wants (KU authors). Get real, people. We are each responsible for ourselves. Do the best you can with the talent you have in the endeavor of your choice. Take the menial job until you can move up to the one you want. Practice your art or skill set until you're better. Learn the business environment and figure out how YOU can make it better for yourself. No one can change outside entities. One can only change oneself. And if you find out your current endeavor doesn't match your skill set, then it may be time to pursue another path. BUT don't blame it on corporations whose only purpose for existing is to make a profit: their profit, not yours. You have to do what you see as best for you. (My apologies to the mods if this sounds political. I don't mean it that way. I simply used some common examples.)
> 
> +1,000


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## tresero (Jul 27, 2015)

EllieDee said:


> You put your finger on something that has always bothered me about KU. The lack of transparency. From what I understand, authors aren't even told how many individual people are borrowing each book. 1000 page reads could be 10 people finishing a 100 page book or 1000 people who didn't make it to page two. Both of these data points would change how that book is packaged, marketed, revised, or even nudge an author toward writing in a different genre. 'Fairly' is kind of a vague term, but it is unfair that authors have to make decisions about their business on such incomplete information.
> 
> I wish Amazon would be more open and honest about ... a lot of things. The page reads. Give some advance warning about changes coming down the pipeline. Take feedback from authors instead of sending it into the Round File. Let readers and authors propose more subcategories so we can better distribute or find the stories we want. I could go on.


Ahh, I can tell most of you have never been gigging musicians. Many, many gigs are you get a percentage of the gate. You have no idea what that will be until you've played the gig and the club owner tells you what you've made.

People, Amazon didn't invent this.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

MyraScott said:


> It's a forum. We read, we disagree, we post our opinions. Telling people to go away because *you* don't like that they don't share your point of view is an attempt to shut out_ their opinions_.
> 
> I can and will continue to be amazed that people who have an opportunity to write and sell books insist that they are being oppressed because of a lending program that is not only completely voluntary, but has actually built comfortable careers for many people who would have never had the chance to publish through traditional publishers.
> 
> I do see people asking for special treatment. Asking for a multinational company to "care" specifically about them and how much money they want to make. Complaining about the payout is one thing. Comparing it to slavery in the salt mines and insisting that Amazon is ruining you because of the choices you made to enroll in it, is victim mentality.


I think that's more hyperbole than victim mentality. I'm pretty sure most people realize that real slavery doesn't come with a check box. That's like saying anyone who has ever said "ball and chain" really believes their spouse to be a medieval torture device.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

TwistedTales said:


> I don't think complaining about these issues means anyone has a victim mentality or is acting entitled. If you dislike the griping then don't read the thread, otherwise let people have their airspace.


Aside from the fact that "complaining" and "griping" are synonymous, and you seem to state one is absent and one is present, the reasons many people see entitlement here are:

1. The "discussion" on here has ranged from Amazon's "societal obligations" to its evil intent to children working in coal mines, so, let's be reasonable enough to acknowledge that this is more than a discussion about whether KU makes sense at any particular price point. The effort to elevate irritation with what Amazon pays (in full accordance with the terms it set forth in advance) to the same status as all manner of societal injustices seems a little irrational, and, to some, a bit callous to people who suffer true injustices. Again, children in coal mines?

2. There seems to be a readiness to accept the highest payout ever hit as some sort of guaranteed norm, and any drop from there to be some sort of underhanded action by Amazon. Amazon has not only expressly laid out how the program works, they have made it optional. Yes, it offers benefits in terms of reaching new readers and increasing overall rank, and it also comes with terms and conditions. Each writer can decide what to do, and can change his/her mind if that analysis changes.

3. There seems to be no recognition whatsoever that Amazon operates close to breakeven (so any increase in what is paid out would likely entail losses for the company, not a "sharing" of massive profits), and that Amazon's willingness to operate at breakeven almost certainly results in more traffic and customers, and as a result, probably more sales/borrows. There isn't the slightest nod to the fact that Amazon virtually created the industry that we are now part of. No, it's all just, 'they paid us less the last couple months, and that makes them evil!'

Reread this thread if you think I'm wrong. My God, if you sent someone here and didn't tell them what this was about you'd think Amazon was stealing babies and selling them somewhere or shooting down peaceful protestors in the town square.

I've been self-employed my entire life. Anyone who thinks Amazon is a bad partner, take one piece of advice. Never, ever, ever start your own business in any other industry. And, whatever you do, never have to deal with the government on anything of substance.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

tresero said:


> Ahh, I can tell most of you have never been gigging musicians. Many, many gigs are you get a percentage of the gate. You have no idea what that will be until you've played the gig and the club owner tells you what you've made.
> 
> People, Amazon didn't invent this.


For that to be comparable, they'd have to not tell you the percentage before you agree. If they say you get 10% of entry fees, then you know how much you're going to make. If you go on stage not knowing if you'll get 50% or 1% of entry fees, that's more accurate to the current KU pot set up. Amazon promises "an amount" for KU reads. They could one day say "the pot for this month is 1 dollar" and not be in violation of the agreement.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Seneca42 said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. If zon is making .008 per page and paying out .00001 per page there is societal damage. That's how companies become unstoppable. But again, I'd also be someone that says it's wrong to employ slave labor out of China (while others would say better a slave wage than no wage).


Right, because a voluntary program that you can choose or not choose to participate in is in anyway comparable to slave labor in China?  



> Take to all the mom-and-pop shops that are gone because of Walmart because of these margin-squeezing and offshoring trends. So the only point I've tried to make in this thread is that I personally do not support this type of business practice and feel it is very harmful to society overall...


Apples and oranges. Your analogy doesn't work because you are not a mom-and-pop shop in this scenario. You make the widgets that go on Mom-and-Pop's or Walmart's shelves. 

And guess what, before Walmart came around, Mom and Pop wouldn't carry your widgets, so instead of living your dream as a widget maker you pretty much had to do something else and widget making was relegated to being a hobby. Now you're making widgets full time and okay, Walmart is putting the squeeze on you...time to re-evaluate. Good news is, it's not zero sum - it's not Walmart or the Mom-and-Pops or nothing...you've got choices...there's Target and Costco and other big boxes too. 

Sure, there are fewer mom-and-pop shops available to carry your widgets than there might have been before Walmart and the other big boxes came to town, but before Walmart came to town you couldn't give your widgets away. Regardless, you still have choices, even if in your opinion the choices are all crappy...the point is, no one's forcing you to do anything, you're not being exploited like slaves in China and there's no one holding your feet to the fire saying you have to keep making widgets in the first place.



> but I also acknowledge there isn't much any one person can do about it.


But that isn't true. You can vote with your feet. As always.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

jaehaerys said:


> Holy cow, this thread.


You ain't kidding.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

kcmorgan said:


> For that to be comparable, they'd have to not tell you the percentage before you agree. If they say you get 10% of entry fees, then you know how much you're going to make. If you go on stage not knowing if you'll get 50% or 1% of entry fees, that's more accurate to the current KU pot set up. Amazon promises "an amount" for KU reads. They could one day say "the pot for this month is 1 dollar" and not be in violation of the agreement.


Yes. But maybe you mean "the pot for last month is 1 dollar"??


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I wish you guys would stop defending Amazon.  You KNOW it's not set up right.  Let people have their say.  Where else are folks gonna vent?  I mean, where anyone actually gets what we're talking about?  Take it or leave it is rarely a pleasant attitude.  Frankly, it kind of stinks.  Even if someone is "complaining too much" or "acting entitled" you are literally defending a multinational company that is earning billions of dollars.  Do you think it's ever right to side against a human being in a discussion like that?  I don't.  Amazon does not need your defense.  They've done a lot of good for indies, and they've done a lot of less than stellar things.  I think it's fair to talk about both without people getting insulted on Amazon's behalf and acting like anyone who's angry at Amazon's recent decisions is entitled and stupid.  You are allowed to have emotions, you are allowed to express them, and everyone who says business doesn't have that seems pretty wrong to me.  I like you guys.  I agree with a number of you about a lot of things.  But y'all are wrong.  Don't defend Amazon right now.  They don't need it.  Put up or shut up and devil take the hindmost is a hateful attitude to display right now. 
Don't turn on your fellow authors.  It's not helping.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

There is an enormous difference between defending Amazon and pointing out that Amazon is a business entity that will always and only act in its best interests, and authors would be wise not to forget that. 

Most people on here, as Jay has said, clearly have not been self employed. It's a different mentality. To succeed, it's good to adopt a more entrepreneurial mindset. To pay things off when you're doing well, but not to count on that continuing. Whether it's Amazon, your publisher, iBooks, or your segment of the reading public, things can and will change. Sometimes for the better. Often for the worse. You can't influence the market except when you can--by writing something amazing. 

I was lucky enough to succeed at this deal from the start. I had some writing talent, some experience in some aspects of marketing that helped me to package well, I'd written a concept that was very appealing to my market, and Amazon happened to be set up at the time to facilitate my success. It's tougher now. It is. No doubt about it. And I've never found quite so hooky a concept. Maybe I peaked at the beginning and it's all downhill! I still do well even in a tougher market, I still love writing books, so I continue. Who knows, maybe this book will be my next perfect storm. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy writing it. 

I don't owe Amazon anything. Yes they made me a lot of money, but I made them a lot of money too. And they don't owe me continued compensation at the same level. If I want a steady paycheck, I'll get a job (and hope they don't cut salaries. That's happened to me. It's happened to a lot of people. Life sucks sometimes.)


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

You know I have a lot of respect for you. And I know you have a lot of wisdom to share. But do you really need to keep repeating this stuff in this thread? Yes, people need to be reminded of the ever changing marketplace. Yes, it's important to save while the saving is good. Yes, it's a constant balancing act. But you are a success. You are not going to have to worry about whether you can take care of your family if you have a couple of bad months or have to pivot. Someone like you telling the people in this thread whose circumstances in life might be a lot more razor-thin-edged just comes across as tone deaf. By all means share your wisdom. We need the wisdom of people like you. You've given a LOT to the community over the years and are generally very level headed and smart. But I feel like you're not coming across well here. And I am not speaking as someone who is currently in KU or angry about KU. I've already jumped ship.



Usedtoposthere said:


> There is an enormous difference between defending Amazon and pointing out that Amazon is a business entity that will always and only act in its best interests, and authors would be wise not to forget that.
> 
> Most people on here, as Jay has said, clearly have not been self employed. It's a different mentality. To succeed, it's good to adopt a more entrepreneurial mindset. To pay things off when you're doing well, but not to count on that continuing. Whether it's Amazon, your publisher, iBooks, or your segment of the reading public, things can and will change. Sometimes for the better. Often for the worse. You can't influence the market except when you can--by writing something amazing.
> 
> ...


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

My sales records go back to 2011. I can see what Amazon shenanigans are doing to my bank account.

Here's an example - I have a series that each books earns roughly $10K in the first year. Readers like it, it's good. Then KENP numbers shrank and something happened last Aug/Sept (possibly page flip) and now the books make $6-7K in the first year.

You might think "oh, perhaps readers are bored," etc... but the sales are the same. It's just the page read component that has nosedived. Somehow a series that has stable reader numbers is suddenly failing with KU readers? 

Or is it because Amazon shrank my book lengths, introduced page flip and did who knows what else?

Another example - a series that made about $36K last year. $22K KU and $14K sales. This year it's right on track for about the same in sales but the KU component? It's about $14K. So instead of $36K I'll make $28K, a drop of $8K.

Book earnings can go up and down and a series can have falling earnings over time but stable sales figures and dropping KU? What is the explanation for that? 

A final example - Audible and whispersync. I have a series and for some reason one of the titles isn't whispersynced while the rest are. The buy figures are stable across the series. Whispersync doesn't bring me extra readers to make up for the lower royalty. It just cuts my earnings. The non-whispersync book makes far more than the whispersynced ones. 

What really annoys me about the Audible stuff is that I have given them seven years. Who knows what new deal they'll throw at me? An audible subscription program where I get $0.004 per minute listened? A seven hour book would earn $1.68. 

***

Here's what I'm doing about it: come November I'm starting two new series. One is going to be in KU, the other wide. The existing series that is currently in KU? I'll be finishing it, leaving it for maybe six months and then going wide with it (unless there are radical drops in the meantime).

For all the other authors out there who are multi-series -- we can make a difference. We're big enough to take a possible financial hit from going wide with a series rather than all in. I think encouraging bigger authors to take a series wide can have an impact. 

As for complaining... we should have these long loud threads each and every month. We need GooglePlay and iBooks to notice them. There are people working behind the scenes on their eBook programs and they're very aware of the market. Enough authors shouting loud enough can help get things moving.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

There are people who stick out their chests and brag about being "self-reliant". But in truth no one is self-reliant except the crazy mountain man.

The community paves and lights your streets.
The community provides your water clean.
The community subsidizes your hospitals.
The community educates your children.
The community provides you with a fire department.
And a police department.

Call 911 if you have a heart attack or a stroke and you get a city ambulance in minutes.

It goes on and on.

You pay taxes and you get services back and you need those services to survive. You live in a society of people who come together to help their own survival.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Atlantisatheart said:


> While we're sitting here fighting likes cats in a sack our amazonian overloards are laughing their butts off knowing we can never get it together enough (collectively) to do a damn thing about the price drop and the page flip fiasco. Just as amazon likes it.


What do people imagine authors collectively could "do" about it? We are neither employees nor contractors. I'm making my own decisions about my own career in response. I recommend others do the same. If you want to take action--take a series wide. Advertise that it's wide. Push your wide vendors. Seek out a tradpub deal if you imagine they'll treat you better. (Good luck with that.) Start a thread or a group to help each other with your wide endeavors. There are all sorts of ways already being practiced by people. Go for it. Seriously. Go get busy so Amazon's machinations affect you less. Go help others to do so. Let them help and advise you.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

TwistedTales said:


> 3. I don't know that Amazon do operate close to breakeven. Last I read they were reporting pretty high profits. I've never seen any credible reference that states KDP operates to breakeven either. Do you have a link? If so, is it recent?
> 
> I've been self employed and run my own mid range businesses for decades. My experience has taught me differently to what you seem to have taken from it. Amazon aren't a business partner, at least not in the way I define one. If they were then I would expect open books and total transparency.


Okay, as far as Amazon operating near or at breakeven, it is a public company that reports earnings every three months. Any search at all for financial analysis will turn up thousands of articles decrying the company's continued posting of small profits or losses. The stock just took a hit about a month ago because profits came in far below (the still low levels of) the estimates. So, there is really no argument that Amazon pours almost everything into giving customers value and growing the business (including the pool of readers). Massive wealth has been created by the company, but that is all stock value based on investor belief in the firm long term. It doesn't take a whiz at financial analysis to see that there is little room in Amazon's operations to pay out more. They pay out almost everything that comes in.

Why would you expect transparency when that wasn't offered? KU is pretty simple. You sign up for 90 days. You get paid per page read from the pool that is calculated by Amazon. If they contractually offered you transparency, then you'd have a legitimate gripe. But they didn't. They couldn't disclose KU revenues to authors without announcing them to everyone, competitors included, which they have decided not to do. So, knowing they were never going to disclose that info, knowing you would be paid based on the total pool, seeing that the pool has grown every month (and they did announce the pool), seeing this is a company that has never had anything but a razor-thin profit margin, and having had every bit of this clearly disclosed before you signed up (another kind of transparency, btw), I'm not sure exactly what your complaint is. If you think it doesn't work for you, you don't renew. Ninety days is a very short period. If they wanted to, they could make it a year, and most authors would feel they had no choice.

It's this feeling that they're doing something wrong and hostile to authors that I don't get. What do you all expect, some kind of author's welfare state? Amazon has created more author wealth in the last seven or eight years than anything ever has. That doesn't mean they can do no wrong, but the views on here amaze me.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Modi Gliani said:


> There are people who stick out their chests and brag about being "self-reliant". But in truth no one is self-reliant except the crazy mountain man.
> 
> The community paves and lights your streets.
> The community provides your water clean.
> ...


No argument (though how well much of that gets done is an open question). What, exactly, does that have to do with anything about this discussion? Are you suggesting that accommodating authors should be on the list with clean water and emergency services?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2017)

Jay Allan said:


> No argument (though how well much of that gets done is an open question). What, exactly, does that have to do with anything about this discussion? Are you suggesting that accommodating authors should be on the list with clean water and emergency services?


Of course not. What I'm suggesting is that boasting about self-reliance is crap. That's all.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I worked full time plus at a day job for 35 years to be able to take the risk of relying on my author income. My husband worked until he was 70 so we'd still have health insurance. If I still had a mortgage and kids, I wouldn't be writing at all. I'd still be working those 60 hours. We also just moved to a much cheaper area to ensure that we wouldn't have financial stress from the uncertainty of this career.

If I were taking on a cause, it would be universal health insurance. A far bigger obstacle than Amazon to an author career.

I'm pulling the ladder up after nobody. I'm saying, look for good advice. Take it. See if you've got it once you have done everything you can. Give yourself your best shot. Many people complaining on here have crappy homemade covers. You will not succeed, Amazon or no, with those covers. Everybody I know who sells well takes enormous pains to get great covers. Get your books edited. Trade, barter, save. Get that book polished. I looked inside one book and found a double period in the first paragraphs. That's not going to fly in this competitive environment.

_edited -- Ann_


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> What do people imagine authors collectively could "do" about it?


I've been thinking about this. A few ideas:

1) Mass day of KU unenrollment. Pick some date two-three months from now, begin promoting it, set up a facebook page or single issue website to clearly set out what is wrong with KU (page-flip, shrinking KENP, scammers, etc). Spread it across all author groups, pages, and so on promoting a certain day at the mass unenrol date.

- Because the terms are three months, perhaps the next step there would be to have a type of strike like the Writer's Guild strikes - as in they run for six months.

So, everyone unenrols on X date and then the strike continues for six months at least. When readers ask why not in KU, authors spread the word about payment rates, page flip and so on.

As part of this a concerted email out-reach to the top selling KU authors to directly ask them to support the cause. Amazon won't care much about losing that book hovering at one million but losing the top books would sting.

2) Same as above but hyper focused on Romance and perhaps Sci-fi. I think if you could get the top twenty Romance authors in KU to take some strike action, you'd see some results. Rather than try to organise thousands of authors to unenrol and strike, you'd only have to get twenty to fifty on board. And these people would presumably be making money so they can afford the hit from going wide (also, going wide can be lucrative).

3) Encourage a "go wide with one series" mentality among multi-series authors. Pitch it as a move good for all authors that may carry a financial cost but it is what it is. I can afford to put a series wide and take a hit, I'm sure a lot of other authors could too. I also have made money wide with other names and know that Amazon isn't the only retailer around.

4) A mass email campaign to iBooks, Kobo, NookPress, GooglePlay and others to start a fair subscription service. Authors with good sales emailing to let them know they they would jump ship if a decent subscription program were offered. Write up a template email, get the support addresses, spread the letter among author groups. Have them flooded with emails from authors asking them to fight Amazon on royalties and on the subscription program.
***
The Writer's Guild somehow manage to get it together to strike and their strikes have produced results. Entire tv series have been radically altered by shortened seasons and financial loss shown by the writers going on strike. The truth with KU is that there is a small group of indie authors who make the big KU bucks. The ones the readers love, gulping down their multiple series. I think with a concerted enough campaign you could see change with under five hundred authors working together.

But you need to convince those five hundred authors. Get Amanda M Lee to go wide entirely and Michael Andrele and A.G. Riddle, Ryk Brown and as many of the top ranking KU authors as possible.

And if strike is impossible to coordinate then perhaps the mass email to competitors is the next idea. It doesn't cost anyone financially. It doesn't separate the community into those striking and those not. Perhaps our mass day of action should be around contacting all these other retailers?

But we're not powerless and the answer isn't just like it or leave it as some claim.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Fact - when Amazon first started KU, it tanked the regular ebook sales for many of us. People are always going to opt into programs that offer items for free or at a discount. In this case, under $10 for all you can eat, um read, is a great thing for book lovers. The mistake authors made was getting into the program to begin with, not that anyone understood back then what it would do to the market. 

Can authors going wide change the system? Probably not. Authors pull out, new authors pile in. It just is what it is.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> There is an enormous difference between defending Amazon and pointing out that Amazon is a business entity that will always and only act in its best interests, and authors would be wise not to forget that.


hehe your post made me break out laughing. You know what's going on here right?

Half the people just want to vent and spend a day or so raging at the bs that is amazon. The other half want them to STOP and just focus on what matters, writing.

hehehe. It's quite humorous because it's an example of how different people process events and move past them. Some of us want to talk (vent) it out, some of us just find the topic curious and want to talk about it, and some of us just want everyone to shut up cuz they don't see the point.

Pure hilarity.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

No offense, but any author being wide doesn't hurt Amazon in the slightest. The indies pull out of KDP Select, well boohoo, they'll just funnel the money into contracts with other content providers.  . . . we are by far not the only place in town to get stories people will read.

Also, LOTS of people predicted what KU would do to the market, and many have had to work differently ( I won't say harder, that's subjective) to make their plans work around the effects of Kindle Unlimited. I've had reviews on my books saying "only get this if you can get it free in Kindle unlimited" and "don't like this author unless she puts her books in Kindle unlimited." With the old prime borrow system people weren't leaving reviews on books trying to bully authors into that program. And all I can do is shrug and move on, because I'm an author who makes more on Amazon alone when KU can't cannibalize my sales and the stuff I make wide is just a nice safety net for cashflow in case any vendor's payment is delayed.

There is really little evidence to me that Kindle Unlimited is in at all operating in a way Amazon did not expect. They knew there would be shrinkage aka scammers, and they've escalated the response to that as their growth occurred, but it's always going to be a reactionary, measured response. So long as it's algorithms and robots that run the show behind the scenes, there will be humans that can break the system, because we are still the smartest walking computers around... for now...


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Authors cannot legally collectively boycott Amazon. That's collusion and it's a cartel. You can look it up.

And why on earth would the top 20 romance authors pull out of KU? When you pay their mortgage, you can ask them to do that. People need to act in their own best interests. If that is going wide or experimenting with wide, great. Do that. Or, you know, share information. Join groups. Ask for advice and give it.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. Evenstar, Moderator_


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Authors cannot legally collectively boycott Amazon. That's collusion and it's a cartel. You can look it up.
> 
> And why on earth would the top 20 romance authors pull out of KU? When you pay their mortgage, you can ask them to do that. People need to act in their own best interests. If that is going wide or experimenting with wide, great. Do that. Or, you know, share information. Join groups. Ask for advice and give it.


You're wrong about a boycott being collusion and a cartel. Perhaps you'd like to explain how the Writer's Guild is able to strike? Or how any mass action can take place?

I'd also have to ask - why are you posting here arguing about this? If you don't want to discuss solutions then perhaps find another thread to spend your time.

_Edit to remove comment from quoted text. Evenstar, Moderator_


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> @seneca42, thanks for the shout out. Like you, I find the exploration of the model entertaining. Amazon, and the publishing business in general, is like the Matrix where nothing is quite what it appears to be on the surface. My business partner and I waste hours analyzing the many quirks in the model.


hehe this whole thread is one giant miscommunication. I think everyone actually agrees on 70% of the content, but are banging heads over the 30%.

Like the authors screaming - just shut up and get out if you don't like it. hehe - WE HAVE! Calm down, we've gone wide  No one is disagreeing with you.

And those of us (including me) screaming that zon is a big bully turning people upside down and shaking the change out of their pockets... most would agree that KU is broken (page flips, failure to count pages, rank botting, page read scamming, fake review swapping, etc.) and that authors are bearing the brunt of that. But they believe since nothing can be done about it, there's no point talking about it.

I forget the poster who mentioned it ... but they were bang on, this is where zon gets its power, being able to pit suppliers against each other.

It really shouldn't be hard for both sides to recognize the core position of the other, which is:

* Go wide if you feel zon is F'ing you and
* Zon will F you if they can (that's business)


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No offense, but any author being wide doesn't hurt Amazon in the slightest. The indies pull out of KDP Select, well boohoo, they'll just funnel the money into contracts with other content providers. . . . we are by far not the only place in town to get stories people will read.


I don't think this is true - when I look at Cozy for example, there is a lot of KU titles, voracious readers and close connection between all the indie authors. The readers are reading a lot of Indie titles. You can look at Yasiv to see how small the circle is.

The top cozy authors often have multiple series or a very long series. If you check the reviewers of these books they appear to be reviewing in only a few genres.

The readers are KU readers because they're heavy readers. They love borrowing and gulping down series. If they had to buy each book it would be cost prohibitive.

But there isn't really anywhere else for them to go if a bunch of the top authors removed their books from KU. There isn't unlimited cozy bakery at the quality level they want. Nor witch nor paranormal cozy.

Twenty authors acting in concert could easy take fifty titles from the top 100 of that genre out of KU.

Those readers can turn to whatever is next down the list in KU but it's not the same quality nor the characters they love.

We're not all interchangeable cogs where if one of us takes out our series there is another one ready to take its place. Enough cozy (or romance) authors leave KU and suddenly the offering becomes much worse.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

HSh said:


> Even if someone is "complaining too much" or "acting entitled" you are literally defending a multinational company that is earning billions of dollars. Do you think it's ever right to side against a human being in a discussion like that? I don't.


This might be my favorite comment on kboards ever.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

........ said:


> But you need to convince those five hundred authors. Get Amanda M Lee to go wide entirely and Michael Andrele and A.G. Riddle, Ryk Brown and as many of the top ranking KU authors as possible.


Leaving aside the illegality of unionizing and striking and acting in concert because that's been thrashed out on other threads, who is the "you" that needs to convince those 500 authors? And convince them of what besides giving up a lot of money for 3 to 6 months? To lobby Amazon to fix KU as it is? To lobby Amazon to create curated tiers where the Top 500 get a higher page payout than everybody else because suddenly they realize they're carrying everyone else?

You do realize that at least 3 of the most persistent Top 100 KU earners have posted in this thread just today, right? They're sharing how they feel about KU right here. You can ask them what their end goals are. But you've just invited one of them leave, so there's that.

Personally, if *I* were in the Top 500 and we came together to lobby, I'd be lobbying for those of us in the Top 500 to be given the same privileges and payouts as even the small trad publishers get -- the right to be paid a royalty percent and to be wide and in KU. Philanthropy only extends so far...


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

........ said:


> I don't think this is true - when I look at Cozy for example, there is a lot of KU titles, voracious readers and close connection between all the indie authors. The readers are reading a lot of Indie titles. You can look at Yasiv to see how small the circle is.
> *snip*


You are looking at the "top" authors that is a manufactured ranking based on KU borrows and sales. What you need to be looking at is the POP LIST or heck, even Amazon's brand new "Amazon charts" to understand there is a big disconnect between the top borrowed/discount selling and top revenue generating books. With each passing month, I'm witnessing the Amazon ebook store morph more and more into clear areas. And it's also more personalized than ever before.... if you do not borrow KU books or buy books by certain authors, you aren't shown those in the sliders. You are shown books, even in "Bestselling" and "New Release" based on your browsing and purchase behavior.



PhoenixS said:


> Personally, if *I* were in the Top 500 and we came together to lobby, I'd be lobbying for those of us in the Top 500 to be given the same privileges and payouts as even the small trad publishers get -- the right to be paid a royalty percent and to be wide and in KU. Philanthropy only extends so far...


If I could be wide and use KU, I would rotate titles in and let my backlist be borrowable. I *might* even test a new release with it. I still think KU would be less money overall, but I would be willing to support the program to increase reading in a measured way as part of a larger marketing plan.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> Leaving aside the illegality of unionizing and striking and acting in concert because that's been thrashed out on other threads, who is the "you" that needs to convince those 500 authors? And convince them of what besides giving up a lot of money for 3 to 6 months? To lobby Amazon to fix KU as it is? To lobby Amazon to create curated tiers where the Top 500 get a higher page payout than everybody else because suddenly they realize they're carrying everyone else?
> 
> You do realize that at least 3 of the most persistent Top 100 KU earners have posted in this thread just today, right? They're sharing how they feel about KU right here. You can ask them what their end goals are. But you've just invited one of them leave, so there's that.
> 
> Personally, if *I* were in the Top 500 and we came together to lobby, I'd be lobbying for those of us in the Top 500 to be given the same privileges and payouts as even the small trad publishers get -- the right to be paid a royalty percent and to be wide and in KU. Philanthropy only extends so far...


It's not illegal to organize and take action. It's a trivial step to have a website with an "enter your name, email address and click yes" and voila - collective bargaining.

People in different fields organize all the time.

This thread is so incredibly frustrating. What can we do? Okay, here's some ideas.

And then I get to see fellow indie authors fighting against any and all ideas.

If your position is "go in KU or get out and that's it" then perhaps these discussions aren't for you. Perhaps if people start talking about a day of action, it's not for you if you don't want to be involved.

But thus far I'm not seeing any better ideas. Have you brought something to the table? I think a day of action emailing all other retailers could be useful.

I do also think a mass day of unenrolment could be effective.

I really have to ask - who are you arguing on behalf of? It seems like some authors argue for Amazon and not other authors.

Talk about action and get told it's illegal and a cartel. What nonsense. Talk about top authors taking action and nope, that's impossible to.

If you really think there is nothing to be done then perhaps move to a different conversation. Other people think there might be something to do.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Cartels_and_collusion

Collective boycotts (or other measures such as price setting) between independent competitors violate antitrust law in the United States. (Also in Australia and many European countries.) Many such articles exist. Google "collective boycott competitors" to find them.

This gets brought up all the time. It's illegal, and it's highly likely to be ineffective, because there's too much incentive for one or more of the competitors to see an opportunity in their colleagues' withdrawal from the market.

Not a lawyer. A businessperson with an MBA, a stint as a business law research assistant, and a number of business law courses under her belt. This isn't anything obtuse or tricky, though. Pretty straightforward. Has been discussed in other threads in more detail, as Phoenix says, and the details could probably be found in a search.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Authors cannot legally collectively boycott Amazon. That's collusion and it's a cartel. You can look it up.
> 
> And why on earth would the top 20 romance authors pull out of KU? When you pay their mortgage, you can ask them to do that. People need to act in their own best interests. If that is going wide or experimenting with wide, great. Do that. Or, you know, share information. Join groups. Ask for advice and give it.


I know a ton of top 20 romance authors who are pulling out of KU, presumably because it's better for their bottom line. And I disagree 100% with your assessment of quality. Take another look at the romance charts right now. There are a lot of people in there publishing low quality content bc KU makes it profitable to do so. Honestly, I've had first page typos that weren't caught for quite some time (by my first or second proofer or any of my hundred something ARCs) in books that sold quite well. I can't proof to save my life, so, even when I get two rounds of editing, stuff falls through the cracks.

I've been self-employed all my life and I'd put Amazon in the middle of all my employers. Better than many. But Amazon does owe me certain things they aren't providing. Like fixing PageFlip. I'm in KU under the premise of Amazon counting pages accurately. PageFlip is stealing from KU authors and should not be allowed on KU books, full stop.

People feel trapped by KU bc it's difficult to go wide practically with rotating Select cycles and because they're even more screwed if they go wide and it doesn't go well and they crawl back to KU. Personally, my series are all related, so I don't feel good about taking some wide and leaving others in KU. Taking all my books wide at once is a huge risk. Staying in a KU with a declining rate with declining pages and tons of problems isn't desirable either. Can you really blame people for being frustrated by these options?
_
Edited to modify quoted text. Evenstar, Moderator_


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

How can they possibly think that lowering it is going to keep people inside? Eventually, people will leave. It's in their best interest to raise it to a competitive rate. This is getting super annoying.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

jcalloway said:


> Unenthused.


How many months is that now they have dropped it? ( 2, 3, 4 months in a row?)


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I like how a single minor typo they didn't catch automatically means someone is no longer entitled to have an opinion on a wholly unrelated business decision.

I heard Taylor Swift once got toilet paper stuck to her show. Guess she better sign on with Spotify and accept the fiscal reaming she so richly deserves for that then.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> I had decided last month that I could no longer _afford_ to keep my novels in KU


So you are saying you have proven that you can earn more OUTSIDE than INSIDE KU? Do you have these stats from previous months or years?


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You are looking at the "top" authors that is a manufactured ranking based on KU borrows and sales. What you need to be looking at is the POP LIST or heck, even Amazon's brand new "Amazon charts" to understand there is a big disconnect between the top borrowed/discount selling and top revenue generating books. With each passing month, I'm witnessing the Amazon ebook store morph more and more into clear areas. And it's also more personalized than ever before.... if you do not borrow KU books or buy books by certain authors, you aren't shown those in the sliders. You are shown books, even in "Bestselling" and "New Release" based on your browsing and purchase behavior.


Here is an example of what I'm talking about: Jana DeLeon had Hook, Line and Blinker out (https://www.amazon.com/Hook-Line-Blinker-Fortune-Mystery-ebook/dp/B071WKLCXH). It's $5.99 and not in KU. Look at the Also-boughts and the majority are not in KU.

Then look at To Test a Witch by Juliette Harper (https://www.amazon.com/Test-Witch-Jinx-Hamilton-Mystery-ebook/dp/B075FW61MG). It's $2.99 and in KU. The majority of the also-boughts are KU titles.

When you look at these cozy KU titles, you see extremely close network connections between various authors. They all show up in each other's also-boughts.

There are fifteen pages of also-boughts but it's only a small group of authors who dominate the list. It's maybe 38 or so (did a quick count) and from that group it's only a few who have the majority of listings.

This is what I mean by a small group dominate and are the main reason readers take up a KU subscription for that genre. The top ten authors in those also-boughts leaving KU would leave a gaping hole in the program for that genre.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

cadle-sparks said:


> If Amazon were "screwing" me, I'd leave Amazon. They aren't, so I don't.
> 
> They offer me the opportunity to be read all around the world.
> The interface is pain-free to learn and use.
> ...


I have to agree. But what i think folks are saying is that it has been dropping lower and lower every month.

Personally I think folks should contact the owner of Amazon and let him know via that email. At least raise it to his attention and tell him that if it continues going down folks will pull out.

I will stay in until i see it go really nuts


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I know a ton of top 20 romance authors who are pulling out of KU, presumably because it's better for their bottom line. And I disagree 100% with your assessment of quality. Take another look at the romance charts right now. There are a lot of people in there publishing low quality content bc KU makes it profitable to do so. Honestly, I've had first page typos that weren't caught for quite some time (by my first or second proofer or any of my hundred something ARCs) in books that sold quite well. I can't proof to save my life, so, even when I get two rounds of editing, stuff falls through the cracks.
> 
> I've been self-employed all my life and I'd put Amazon in the middle of all my employers. Better than many. But Amazon does owe me certain things they aren't providing. Like fixing PageFlip. I'm in KU under the premise of Amazon counting pages accurately. PageFlip is stealing from KU authors and should not be allowed on KU books, full stop.
> 
> People feel trapped by KU bc it's difficult to go wide practically with rotating Select cycles and because they're even more screwed if they go wide and it doesn't go well and they crawl back to KU. Personally, my series are all related, so I don't feel good about taking some wide and leaving others in KU. Taking all my books wide at once is a huge risk. Staying in a KU with a declining rate with declining pages and tons of problems isn't desirable either. Can you really blame people for being frustrated by these options?


I don't blame anyone for being frustrated. I'm frustrated, and I am a top 100 KU author. I have some books wide and am taking more wide. I am diversified in other ways. That is my response.

And yes, I would suggest that for long term success as an author (and yes there are marketers hiring teams of ghost writers. As far as I'm concerned that's a fairly different career, and fine to go after If that's what you want), it's on the book. You have to write something lots of people want to read. You have to let them know it's there. You have to satisfy your readers and keep satisfying them. It's been my observation that authors who have major success for five, ten, and more years do those things well, and that their work is polished and presented professionally. They also write in genres or niches that can support a mid-six to eight-figure income, and they brand well. My suggestion (not to you) would be to study those things, to spend some efforts there.

I totally get anxiety. I have a major anxiety disorder. I've found the most useful thing is to focus on what I CAN do right now. Which is usually writing the book and making it better, or making concrete plans, for ex to take a series wide. That's where I'm trying to come from here. If it sounds tone deaf, I apologize. I know how easy it is to get spun up. That's why I am now taking a break. Clearly I am not helping.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Cartels_and_collusion
> 
> Collective boycotts (or other measures such as price setting) between independent competitors violate antitrust law in the United States. (Also in Australia and many European countries.) Many such articles exist. Google "collective boycott competitors" to find them.
> 
> ...


The Writers Guild of America has been very successful in using strike action to benefit its members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Writers_Guild_of_America_strike

They have about 12,000 members.

Indie publishing is still very new and we're our own little fiefdoms but an evolution to a guild model that can take action could benefit us, especially given how indie authors are eating the lists.

So let's skip past the nonsense about illegal collusion and cartels - we can as a group legally organize if we wanted to, that group can then take strike action if they wish and can make demands.

Thus far no one has managed to set up such a group with credibility that can herd all the cats. It's obviously a difficult task but that doesn't mean it's impossible nor that it is illegal collusion.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

........ said:


> The Writers Guild of America has been very successful in using strike action to benefit its members: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Writers_Guild_of_America_strike
> 
> They have about 12,000 members.
> 
> ...


Those screenwriters were independent contractors and employees. Completely different law.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Those screenwriters were independent contractors and employees. Completely different law.


Are you being deliberately obtuse now? You can clearly understand that we, as authors, can organize just as they have. Many film and television writers are just like us - independent. The companies they work for engage the writer's company.

It's like you're just arguing to argue now.

There is no barrier to someone setting up an author guild for indies and inviting people to join and pay to do so. There is no barrier to that guild then making certain demands and asking its members to uphold the actions chosen by the collective. It's not illegal and not collusion.

I don't think you're being helpful here.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

........ said:


> Here is an example of what I'm talking about: Jana DeLeon had Hook, Line and Blinker out (https://www.amazon.com/Hook-Line-Blinker-Fortune-Mystery-ebook/dp/B071WKLCXH). It's $5.99 and not in KU. Look at the Also-boughts and the majority are not in KU.
> 
> Then look at To Test a Witch by Juliette Harper (https://www.amazon.com/Test-Witch-Jinx-Hamilton-Mystery-ebook/dp/B075FW61MG). It's $2.99 and in KU. The majority of the also-boughts are KU titles.
> 
> ...


And this is what I mean. You are looking at the tail that Amazon is wagging for you.  I mean that nicely.

Hook is #97 in Kindle Store>Mystery,Thriller, adn Suspense>Cozy

To Test a Witch is #32 on the same "bestseller" list. This is volume ONLY and it's sales + borrow clicks, the ratio of borrow clicks to sales no one knows the equivalency, it might be 1:1 it could be more.

What you need to keep an eye as well is the POP LIST for the same bestseller list. To get to it, you have to scroll down to a book's bottom where it LISTS the categories they are in, that lands you on the pop list page. There are now sliders of crap that are unique to YOU (you can try going to the same page as a friend or in different browsers / signed in not signed in to see how it changes. It's subtle, sometimes it's just differnt books or same books in different order or entire sliders missing or added depending on if you LIKE a genre and this is ONLY DESKTOP PEOPLE, mobile is different).

https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=dp_brlad_entry?ie=UTF8&node=6190476011

And if you scroll to the very bottom books are generally in order of revenue, meaning ACTUAL dollars made. Hook by Jana De Leon is #5 and I found To Test a Witch on page 6. THere's about 17-20 books per page, depending on ad spots.

Now what does this mean? It means in the last 24 hours (Poplist is only updated daily, not hourlyish like bestseller list), Hook likely made more MONEY. To Test a Witch is beating Hook with clicks and sales, but Hook is higher revenue. This is what I have tried to explain here for years thanks to finally understanding this phenomenon from Phoenix Sullivan . . . I've literally had a book fall OUT of the top 100 bestseller list, like Hook is about to do, but still be #6 on the pop list right under Diana Gabaldon because of my price. $9.99 means anything .99 has to sell 10x what I sell to beat me in revenue. The Pop List is what informs the emails and stuff that goes out more so than the bestseller lists, which is most often the source of "stickiness" authors observe but can't explain.

But you can't look at this stuff in a vacuum. For one, Hook is WAY older than To Text a Witch by 3 months. you'd need to monitor books for google alerts and bookbub listing to know if a book was just .99 and then swapped to full price etc. Or if a book is KU or not KU, etc. You would also need to pick a few examples of books in your genre as testers and monitor their behavior over weeks. Look at performance over 30 days. Was there a preorder? Etc. There's a LOT of moving parts to understanding the Amazon marketplace for YOUR genre.

Oh, and about Also Boughts . . . blow your mind and scroll down to the very bottom and read what Amazon lists as "What other items do customers buy after viewing this item?" and that listing is different than the Also Boughts . . . and you will start to see the picture is heavily manipulated at Amazon's whim. YASIV is a tool, and another to use is google search Amazon.com:ASIN and you can see all of the pages that link to that product because that ASIN is in the code to render on the page.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

T. M. Bilderback said:


> For all the hand-wringing and point-making in this thread, it all boils down to this: in business, if you don't trust your business partner, you stop doing business with them, or scale back the business that you do with them.
> 
> There's no need for name-calling, accusations, or "I'm doing it better than you". We're writers, and publishers. We're each and every one a business entity of our own. We produce the product, and find distributors (booksellers) that put our products on the shelves for a cut of the sales price.
> 
> ...


You make good points. But let me tell you why I stay in Select/KU:

It's easy.

I don't want to deal with half a dozen different distributors, some of whom I don't know to trust.

I don't want to spread my bank information around.

I don't want to try to squeeze out of 15% of the market what I'm getting out of 85% if the market.

I'm an author and not a marketer or a businessman and I don't want to bother hustling like a marketer or a businessman.

I like the fact that I can finish writing something and upload it and have it go live in a short time. I've had ebooks get published and go live on Amazon in less than an hour. I understand it can take weeks with other distributors.

I make serious money from sales and KU reads and the Amazon payment is always on time.

I upload books in only one format: HTML. It's easy for me to code a book, No epub. No Word. I write in plain ASCII text and in a few minutes I have everything converted into an HTML file for uploading.

So for me I'm in Select/KU because it's easy publishing and I don't want to be bothered with complications of what's called "wide". I never promote and I advertise only on AMS in Amazon and I've made six figures from the books I write and sell on Amazon. I've also published much in print in trade publishing, but no more. Amazon is a breath of fresh air and a delight because agents and editors in trade pub are a pain in the a**.

Still, there are changes in Select/KU I would like to see. I'm not whining. I'm not griping. There are just some things that could be better for me---if they just cared more about authors.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

........ said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse now? You can clearly understand that we, as authors, can organize just as they have. Many film and television writers are just like us - independent. The companies they work for engage the writer's company.
> 
> It's like you're just arguing to argue now.
> 
> ...


No, I'm being informed about business law. Indie or trad authors are competitors. Competitors cannot organize things like pricing agreements or boycotts under antitrust law. Read the article I quoted or any other. This isn't s fine point of law.

Of course there are writers' organizations that can talk to Amazon on behalf of their members. Join SFWA, RWA, or any other group, and suggest that they do so, would be my advice. But you cannot legally organize with your competitors to take action against a retailer. It's illegal.

This isn't about feelings, anxiety, or opinion. It's a fact.


----------



## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Look, just to wrap this up and move on, I have no interest in trying to tell anyone what to do.  But for anyone reading this and just getting started, the odds are that you are very likely better off in KU than not.  Why?  Because virtually the only thing important to you (aside from the quality of your work and professional covers, blurbs, etc.) is exposure. You need to create a base of readers.  Everything else (at least in career terms) flows from that.  And you are far, far likelier to accomplish that in KU, whether they pay 0.005, 0.004...or 0.002.  Why?  Because you simply cannot afford to lose the rank contributions borrows provide.  

I say this as someone who was wide for four years, and who tried to overcome the rank advantages my KU peers enjoyed.  I did well on other vendors.  I had a rep at BN.  None of that mattered, because for 99.9% of us (save the few lucky authors favored by iTunes and hooked up there), Amazon is utterly dominant.  No amount of success elsewhere is going to make up for losing ground on Amazon.  As someone with a fair amount of experience with wide distribution, I'd speculate that most of those leaving KU out of anger are going to be very disappointed with their sales at the other vendors, especially over the long term.

So, if you're experienced, if you've been selling your books for a while, have a blast.  Get mad, stomp off, compare KU to children in coal mines, child trafficking, whatever other overblown thing you can think of.  But if you're here trying to figure out how to build a career, be very cautious and analytical before following anyone off the deep end.

And, FYI, I'm not thrilled about the reductions in payout.  It's cost me a LOT of money.  But that doesn't change my ability to be rational about it, nor does it work me up into some hysteria making Amazon out to be some kind of bogeyman.


----------



## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> No, I'm being informed about business law. Indie or trad authors are competitors. Competitors cannot organize things like pricing agreements or boycotts under antitrust law. Read the article I quoted or any other. This isn't s fine point of law.
> 
> Of course there are writers' organizations that can talk to Amazon on behalf of their members. Join SFWA, RWA, or any other group, and suggest that they do so, would be my advice. But you cannot legally organize with your competitors to take action against a retailer. It's illegal.
> 
> This isn't about feelings, anxiety, or opinion. It's a fact.


I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The writers in the writers guild of America are competitors too. They're selling competing services for writing.

Farmers compete against each other yet have unions, protest and organize collective bargaining.

You see politicians trying to restrict or destroy the rights of people organize but it hasn't reached the point of being illegal or collusion.

Any group of people selling services or products can organize for their own benefit. It doesn't matter one jot if we're in competition to each other.

Guilds and unions exist. They work. They're not illegal. Their members are competitors.

You're just wrong here and it's puzzling why you're continuing with insisting there is no way for us to collectively organize.


----------



## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Modi Gliani said:


> I don't want to try to squeeze out of 15% of the market what I'm getting out of 85% if the market.


I don't see it this way at all. I know everyone views the market this way, but I don't.

1) Going wide you still have access to all kindle readers, just not KU (so you aren't cut off from 85%.). I'm not sure what KU represents, but you're giving that up in exchange for whatever the other vendors (collective) represent. The difference (if KU is larger) is your lost access to readers.

2) Even then, it's not about some singular pool of readers. It's about the sub-pool that will read you. Kobo for instance may be smaller, but if a higher percentage of their readers take an interest in your book, you may come out ahead. And they may do so because instead of 5 million authors they have 500,000 (or whatever the number is). Sometimes you can do better fishing in a smaller lake that has less boats trawling the same waters.

I do think for a section of authors KU is inescapable; primarily the genres that KU caters to.

But the banking info and all that other stuff, that's a fair and personal reason.

And I do think wide is a totally different mindset. If you're obsessed with rank for instance, leaving KU will hurt you on amazon. But if you get a kick out of ratings/reviews, my book on kobo has double the ratings/reviews than it has on Amazon (despite being on Kobo for a fraction of the time its been on Amazon).

KU is just a market like any other. The only difference is the flaws it has and the requirement to be exclusive. Those are the real deal breakers (for some authors).


----------



## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> And this is what I mean. You are looking at the tail that Amazon is wagging for you.  I mean that nicely.
> 
> Hook is #97 in Kindle Store>Mystery,Thriller, adn Suspense>Cozy
> 
> ...


Damn, my response got eaten by auto-log out.

I don't disagree we get shown different lists and there are a lot of them with confusing requirements for what ranks on each one. Nor that there are a lot of moving parts, variables and so on.

However, regarding KU, there is a dominance in certain genres by a relatively small group of authors. Their books are all connected to each other because the readers gulp down those titles in KU.

I think Romance is the strongest and then I see it in cozy and also sci-fi.

Indies are eating the lists and will continue to do so. The payouts dropping is bad for all of us and changes like page-flip are even worse. I think a small group of top authors could really make a difference by leaving KU. Get enough of them together and it's national news. The Indie Revolt. Get enough trad authors talking about it to and we could have our very own Writers Guild strike attention.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jumping in at the end here, but I would imagine a lot if it has to do with what just what you mean by organize. Can 5, 10, 100 or 1000 of us get together and decide not to price below 2.99 to protest the 35% royalty, no. Can a group we belong to discuss pricing tiers with Amazon on our behalf, yes. I think. IANAL


----------



## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

........ said:


> The Indie Revolt. Get enough trad authors talking about it to and we could have our very own Writers Guild strike attention.


"It always seems impossible until it's done." - Nelson Mandela


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

. . . . . . if you think it's nonsense, by all means, consult a lawyer and pursue the dream you have to form a union against Amazon. It's not like this is the first time Amazon has had something happen that made authors go "Hmmm, maybe we should organize so we are stronger in bargaining?" 

As far as legally making stronger entities for bargaining, indies have tried a whole bunch of different flavors of larger publisherhood. There was a company that once worked really well with Amazon and crafted a way for all of the parts of producing a book to make money over the life of the book, from the cover artist to the publishing manager to the editor to the author etc. That company folded. But it used to be a way to get an early look from an imprint long before the Scout program.

Indies have tried various types of publishers, aka small presses, etc. and for the large part very few still exist that started in 2011 or 2012. The typical cycle there is someone is a breakout and goes "I've done this amazing thing, I know, I will help others do it just like I did it and take a cut and be better off" and they NEVER realize how much work is involved, how much their success was or wasn't a fluke, and how quickly overhead gobbles up the 5 or 10 or 15% take they thought was fair to take. They realize about 1-3 years in there's a reason the "big bad Big 5" are the way they are because most publishing houses need to be have the capital to publish a lot of books to get those breakouts and a healthy mid-list that chugs along.

Finally, there are the professional organizations that when you join you witness they are VERY careful about any specific, prescriptive advice, sometimes to the point os uselessness. Some have only just opened the doors to indies, others are still a work in progress, a few were early adopters of the indie movement. And they quickly realize too, so many authors have vastly different goals, there's no one direction that helps all. 

Just take the disagreement in this thread. 14 pages. There are some agreements throughout, but a lot of ideas, a lot of vastly different experiences and opinions, and now imagine that as a cohesive body that's going to agree on something like a price?


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

........ said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse now? You can clearly understand that we, as authors, can organize just as they have. Many film and television writers are just like us - independent. The companies they work for engage the writer's company.
> 
> It's like you're just arguing to argue now.
> 
> ...


The Writers Guild members are EMPLOYED by the studios. They negotiate a contract by which their members are employed. That is a critical distinction under law. You are not an employee or a contractor of Amazon. You are an independent supplier in competition with other independent suppliers, and antitrust law applies.

Farmers have limited collective bargaining power, an exemption granted due to their providing an important public good. You could look it up. Seriously. Read the article on antitrust law and competitive suppliers. There's just no point in getting exercised about something that is not legally possible.

"Every three years, the Writers Guild negotiates a new basic contract with the AMPTP by which its members are EMPLOYED. This contract is called the Minimum Basic Agreement (MBA).[17] In 2007, negotiations over the MBA reached an impasse and the WGA membership voted to give its board authorization to call a strike, which it did on Friday, November 2, 2007." - Wikipedia

This stuff is my background. It was part of my job.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> Like fixing PageFlip. I'm in KU under the premise of Amazon counting pages accurately. PageFlip is _*stealing*_ from KU authors and should not be allowed on KU books, full stop.


THIS.

My emphasis in the quote.

This was the last straw for me.

Page-Flip should be disabled for any book downloaded through KU.

Leaving it the way it is, is criminal, imo.


----------



## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> . . . . . . if you think it's nonsense, by all means, consult a lawyer and pursue the dream you have to form a union against Amazon.


This is not helpful or useful. This is exactly the type of stuff that gets us nowhere. Talk about an idea and people seem determined to destroy it. For what?

If you don't want to be involved in collective bargaining then there are plenty of other threads. You're not saving anyone's skin by what you're posting here now.

It's really quite absurd. Talk ideas and your fellow authors don't come in with anything constructive. It's all negative, smack it down, destroy it as fast as you can.

Really have to wonder what the point of you saying that is. It's really producing a passivity and helplessness.

The battle of unions and guilds is never easy but it's really destructive and pretty snide to say "...if you think it's nonsense, by all means, consult a lawyer and pursue the dream you have to form a union against Amazon."

I really do have to say to fellow authors who oppose and rip apart any suggested solutions - what is your motivation here? Talking about the falling payment rates is always going to lead to discussions of what to do. And without fail I see a bunch of authors ripping into any suggestion made to change things.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Modi Gliani said:


> I make serious money from sales and KU reads and the Amazon payment is always on time.


Define serious money? Some people make a hundred bucks and think that's brilliant.

You're making some pretty sweeping statements about how much money you make and how you earn more than anyone else in this thread, but the evidence doesn't stack up. You said you wouldn't listen to anyone else's strategy because you make so much money from KU. To flip that, why should I take KU advice from someone whose books are ranked in the millions?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

An Indie Authors Guild should have no legal problem doing what the trade/print Authors Guild does.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Monique said:


> Jumping in at the end here, but I would imagine a lot if it has to do with what just what you mean by organize. Can 5, 10, 100 or 1000 of us get together and decide not to price below 2.99 to protest the 35% royalty, no. Can a group we belong to discuss pricing tiers with Amazon on our behalf, yes. I think. IANAL


This. Seriously, there are groups out there. SFWA. RWA. Others. Get involved. Suggest they talk to Amazon if you think that will help. It is the nature of Amazon to be secretive and to pursue market share above all else, and that is always its end game. Probably the best bet is to figure out ways your interests align with Amazon's, and pursue those avenues while also keeping other options open.


----------



## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

........ said:


> I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The writers in the writers guild of America are competitors too. They're selling competing services for writing.
> 
> Farmers compete against each other yet have unions, protest and organize collective bargaining.
> 
> ...


What you're saying is wrong. Independent publishers *cannot* attempt to collectively bargain. The law is crystal clear on this. Any such action would be tried in court, and the independent publishers would lose. Open and shut. That's all there is to this. Fin.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

HSh said:


> I wish you guys would stop defending Amazon. You KNOW it's not set up right. Let people have their say. Where else are folks gonna vent? I mean, where anyone actually gets what we're talking about? Take it or leave it is rarely a pleasant attitude. Frankly, it kind of stinks. Even if someone is "complaining too much" or "acting entitled" you are literally defending a multinational company that is earning billions of dollars. Do you think it's ever right to side against a human being in a discussion like that? I don't. Amazon does not need your defense. They've done a lot of good for indies, and they've done a lot of less than stellar things. I think it's fair to talk about both without people getting insulted on Amazon's behalf and acting like anyone who's angry at Amazon's recent decisions is entitled and stupid. You are allowed to have emotions, you are allowed to express them, and everyone who says business doesn't have that seems pretty wrong to me. I like you guys. I agree with a number of you about a lot of things. But y'all are wrong. Don't defend Amazon right now. They don't need it. Put up or shut up and devil take the hindmost is a hateful attitude to display right now.
> Don't turn on your fellow authors. It's not helping.


When KU's payout reduction is being compared to slave labor and people are saying things like Amazon is exploitative in the same way that corporations who actually damage our society are exploitative, then I think it's useful to provide a dose of perspective where apparently little exists.

I think the payout reduction sucks, and I think it's fine to say so, but we're still mostly a bunch of first-worlders talking about money being paid to us for our writing through a voluntary program. We are not talking about lead in our water, oil on our beaches, people chained in sweatshops or anything of that ilk.

There are people in this world legitimately suffering at the nefarious hands of multinational corporations, let us not downplay their plight by pretending the topic of this thread bears any resemblance to what they're going through. And if pointing that out counts as "unpleasant" then so too does all of this thread's rampant hyperbole.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

........ said:


> This is not helpful or useful. This is exactly the type of stuff that gets us nowhere. Talk about an idea and people seem determined to destroy it. For what?
> 
> If you don't want to be involved in collective bargaining then there are plenty of other threads. You're not saving anyone's skin by what you're posting here now.
> 
> ...


I am sincerely not trying to rip anyone's idea apart. Those who do not know the past are doomed to repeat it, though. I was genuine in saying you SHOULD be the change you want to be in the world.  I apologize that's how I sounded to you, I know well what it's like for people to actually tell you that your idea is dumb, will hurt, and never work. I've never let it stop me.

There are laws about what you're trying to do. There really are. If you WANT to do something you need to put your ducks in a row. That's all. And things that didn't work for others can be learned from.

But you DO need to know your publishing history, and I'm not just talking about Amazon. Look what it took for Harlequin authors to try to get what they should have for ebook sales . . . and I believe that didn't even go the way they hoped.

I, too, used to interpret people trying to give me information I could USE as just mean-spirited taking me down all the time. Unless someone is outright calling you a name (which won't last long, the mods here are awesome), people generally mean things here in the best tone possible. It can be difficult for me I know to sometimes pick that out, but still for years, in all the noise of Kboards, there is like a mega eff ton of experience here from trad pub to just indie and hybrid in between.


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Tilly said:


> Define serious money? Some people make a hundred bucks and think that's brilliant.
> 
> You're making some pretty sweeping statements about how much money you make and how you earn more than anyone else in this thread, but the evidence doesn't stack up. You said you wouldn't listen to anyone else's strategy because you make so much money from KU. To flip that, why should I take KU advice from someone whose books are ranked in the millions?


Your post is ridiculous. I never said anywhere I earn more than anyone else in this thread. Apparently, you looked at some of the titles in my signature. The books in the signature are merely my favorites. I have close to 700 titles on sale on Amazon/KU, most short fiction in several genres. So you really don't know anything about me or my catalog. Serious money? I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread that I have over a million KU pages read of my titles and that I have sold 77.000+ ebooks (I checked Book Report again and it's actually 73,500, my error). That's enough information for you. What does not stack up is why it's so important to you. I mention that I've made serious money only as a counterargument to anyone who thinks my complaints are sour grapes from not selling books. There are certainly people in this thread who have made much more money in Select/KU than I have.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

crow.bar.beer said:


> What you're saying is wrong. Independent publishers *cannot* attempt to collectively bargain. The law is crystal clear on this. Any such action would be tried in court, and the independent publishers would lose. Open and shut. That's all there is to this. Fin.


I haven't read the whole thread, but there was a bill in CA recently to let Uber/Lyft drivers organize and it fell apart due to antitrust concerns.


----------



## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> The Writers Guild members are EMPLOYED by the studios. They negotiate a contract by which their members are employed. That is a critical distinction under law. You are not an employee or a contractor of Amazon. You are an independent supplier in competition with other independent suppliers, and antitrust law applies.
> 
> Farmers have limited collective bargaining power, an exemption granted due to their providing an important public good. You could look it up. Seriously. Read the article on antitrust law and competitive suppliers. There's just no point in getting exercised about something that is not legally possible.
> 
> ...


The blind insistence that we can't organize unless we're employees is astonishing. There are guilds, unions and all sorts of organisations that can legally exert power for its members.

It's not just farmers who are "allowed" to organize. There are industry groups for virtually every industry that exists. These groups can organize and engage in collective bargaining.

The idea that it is restricted to employees is nonsense and is exactly the type of thing that convinces people that Uber drivers have no right to organize.


----------



## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

........ said:


> The blind insistence that we can't organize unless we're employees is astonishing. There are guilds, unions and all sorts of organisations that can legally exert power for its members.
> 
> It's not just farmers who are "allowed" to organize. There are industry groups for virtually every industry that exists. These groups can organize and engage in collective bargaining.
> 
> The idea that it is restricted to employees is nonsense and is exactly the type of thing that convinces people that Uber drivers have no right to organize.


We should all chip in on GoFundMe so you can speak to a lawyer.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Over the years, I've learned that one of the single biggest obstacles to people achieving what they want in life is a tendency to see the world and the challenges they face in terms of what's right or fair rather than what IS. Getting hung up on what "ought to be" can result in not dealing effectively with what IS.

I told myself I wasn't going to follow this thread because, frankly, there hasn't been much said that hasn't been said before...multiple times. The details change (.00403 vs .00425 or whatever), but the essence doesn't. And yet I came back because I wondered if someone, at some point, might not say the magic words that would make the situation and the decision I made easier to live with, or offer that one brilliant insight that would make everything work out right.  

Didn't happen, because what IS is exactly what I thought it was....not easy, and with no perfect choices. I'd prefer to be wide, but I've been there and I know, for me, right now, it's still more headaches than I can cope with. It's not that I make more money in KU--I don't, especially not now (I don't necessarily make less in KU either!)--but KU just plain makes my life simpler so I can focus on my writing. 

Am I happy with things like scammers and page flip and declining payouts? Not by a long shot! Do I think I could do better wide? Yes, I do, actually....IF....and make that a very BIG IF....I could get my act together and juggle the demands of this business more effectively and efficiently than I have in the past.  And that's where I run into MY "IS", of which Amazon and KU are only a part....as it is for pretty much everyone here, actually. It's just sometimes really hard to see it clearly...or accept it when you do.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I am sincerely not trying to rip anyone's idea apart. Those who do not know the past are doomed to repeat it, though. I was genuine in saying you SHOULD be the change you want to be in the world.  I apologize that's how I sounded to you, I know well what it's like for people to actually tell you that your idea is dumb, will hurt, and never work. I've never let it stop me.
> 
> There are laws about what you're trying to do. There really are. If you WANT to do something you need to put your ducks in a row. That's all. And things that didn't work for others can be learned from.
> 
> ...


I'm not unaware of the past. I've worked in publishing for years prior to becoming an author.

Your post and tone was unhelpful and I think wrong for this discussion.

I am very tired of seeing people attempting to rip apart any idea that could help indie authors. People who do not bring anything themselves to the table. They don't have any other strategies. Not even "Hey, email Google and tell them to start a program".

I also don't care much if previous authors groups have failed. So what? The road to winning is long and arduous.

I know from my own position that I can financially afford to take a hit from leaving KU (if it happens). So I'm doing it for some of my work and may eventually take all my work out. I'm doing it because this is the long game. I know that KU is dependent on Indie authors staying in. So I expect better treatment. Much like the writers in the Writers Guild of America. They know that the massive industries of television and film is wholly dependent on them.

This is our position as authors.

Discussions around "hey, let's leave KU as a group" I think are very useful. It only takes a small group of bigger authors to join the movement and who knows, maybe everything can change.

But what you and others are doing where the issue is defined as "stay in KU or get out" as the only possibly solution and nothing else can be discussed is utterly useless. It leads to no good result.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Modi Gliani said:


> I have over a million KU pages read of my titles and that I have sold 77.000+ ebooks (I checked Book Report again and it's actually 73,500, my error). That's enough information for you.


It's also a bit vague. Is that pages read in total? Or monthly? Just curious.
Up until this year, and before page-flip, I was doing 1mil page reads in a month, 3 or 4 times a year. I did 2 mill one month. So the time scale matters when quoting numbers.

I'm in the lower 6 digit range per year. My estimate of losses per month from page-flip alone is $2000+, and this isn't even based on a good month, but an average one without a release. Amazon cant hit me that hard overnight and not get a reaction.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

TimothyEllis said:


> It's also a bit vague. Is that pages read in total? Or monthly? Just curious.
> Up until this year, and before page-flip, I was doing 1mil page reads in a month, 3 or 4 times a year. I did 2 mill one month. So the time scale matters when quoting numbers.
> 
> I'm in the lower 6 digit range per year. My estimate of losses per month from page-flip alone is $2000+, and this isn't even based on a good month, but an average one without a release. Amazon cant hit me that hard overnight and not get a reaction.


In total. You're very successful. Congratulations.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

........ said:


> maybe everything can change.


For authors in KU making high 4, 5, or 6 figures a month, why would they want it to change? And for authors making 1, 2, or 3 figures a month why would Amazon care or listen to them should they actually organize?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

........ said:


> I'm not unaware of the past. I've worked in publishing for years prior to becoming an author.
> 
> Your post and tone was unhelpful and I think wrong for this discussion.
> 
> ...


You are so right . . . I have never done anything, not a helpful post or guide for anyone about how to make a living at this without being in KU. I am unhelpful. . . .

I hope you have a great night and a great career. I'm walking away now to spare the mods any work.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

jaehaerys said:


> For authors in KU making high 4, 5, or 6 figures a month, why would they want it to change? And for authors making 1, 2, or 3 figures a month why would Amazon care or listen to them should they actually organize?


Top authors are still seeing losses.

I've seen losses on certain books of around $4K a year per title from KU changes. When sales are stable but my KENPC shrinks and other stuff happens (page-flip) I can see it in my bank account.

I'd love to see an explanation of how sales can be stable but KU page reads drop 30%.

So top authors who might be earning $30K a month are seeing it drop to $25K a month or maybe $20K a month. They're still making a lot but not as much as they were. Over a year, it's a huge hit to overall income.

I'm on $100K a year and it very much matters to me that payouts are dropping. I've directly seen how a book can go from making $10K a year to $6K a year and the only thing different is what Amazon is doing. The books aren't worse or the competition better. The sales are consistent. The read-though for the series is too.

I think it's very worth discussing collective action and mass withdrawal from KU. Also I think we should encourage authors to write to GooglePlay and other retailers to ask them to start subscription programs.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You are so right . . . I have never done anything, not a helpful post or guide for anyone about how to make a living at this without being in KU. I am unhelpful. . . .
> 
> I hope you have a great night and a great career. I'm walking away now to spare the mods any work.


I'm specifically talking about this topic Elizabeth. When I see the equivalent of "lol, go see a lawyer and you do it then ha ha ha!" it's not great.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Subscription programs are the problem. We need fewer not more. I'd wish KU into the cornfield, but I'm not Anthony. Do you think more of them would change the landscape for the better? I think they're all bad news for authors.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Modi Gliani said:


> In total.


There are posters in this thread who have millions of pages read per month. You were over reaching to say you earned more than them and therefore their advice is invalid. Context matters.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Tilly said:


> There are posters in this thread who have millions of pages read per month. You were over reaching to say you earned more than them and therefore their advice is invalid. Context matters.


Another ridiculous post. I never said what you think I said. You're hallucinating.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> What do I suggest about what? What started this brouhaha was my suggestion that Amazon announce the KU page rate for the following month in advance. That got me told if I don't like the system, go somewhere else.
> 
> Why should I go somewhere else when I've made a hell of a lot of money in Select? *My guess is I've made more money here than anyone telling me to use "business strategy".*
> 
> ...


This was the post some of us noticed, I believe. You've since denied saying it three times, but yes, you did say it.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

........ said:


> Top authors are still seeing losses.
> 
> I've seen losses on certain books of around $4K a year per title from KU changes. When sales are stable but my KENPC shrinks and other stuff happens (page-flip) I can see it in my bank account.
> 
> ...


Amazon wants marquee names in KU. To get Amazon to the table you'd have to organize the marquee indies with substantial readerships into some form of collective. I'm not even sure it would be legal to do so given we indies are all separate business entities.

Beyond that, I won't say that what you're talking about is impossible, but it certainly qualifies as highly unlikely. If it were me, I'd take the time and energy an undertaking that mammoth would require and put it into my writing and selling. But to each their own.


----------



## ........ (May 4, 2013)

crow.bar.beer said:


> What you're saying is wrong. Independent publishers *cannot* attempt to collectively bargain. The law is crystal clear on this. Any such action would be tried in court, and the independent publishers would lose. Open and shut. That's all there is to this. Fin.


The Authors Guild and the American Society of Media Photographers took on Google (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/12/google-tries-to-kick-authors-guild-out-of-court-in-book-case/), amongst others.

As part of this they tried to negotiate a settlement and terms... which was legal to do so. They represent thousands of members, who are competitors. They put forth demands and then eventually reached an agreement.

Perhaps this is all hinging on some specific idea of what "collective bargaining" is under US Anti-trust laws.

Here is what I believe is perfectly legal:

It is legal for authors to organize.

It is legal for discussions about a mass withdrawal from KU to occur.

It is legal for such an organization to encourage its members to withdraw.

It is legal for authors to go ahead and withdraw.

It is legal for such an organization to publish what changes it would like to see to payment structures.

***
Other organisations do this kind of thing and it is perfectly legal. The photographers, most of them independent, organize and have a body who represents and guides and advises.

If it's anti-trust that people are worried about then make a withdrawal recommendation a request and nothing more.

I find it hard to believe that if across indie-author-space if a KU withdrawal date was discussed and then enacted that somehow anti-trust is going to come stomping in. As many have said - no one can force you to stay in KU. And there are plenty of author organizations who recommend working with or avoiding certain other businesses without falling foul of anti-trust.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

jaehaerys said:


> we indies are all separate business entities.


I'm not a business entity. I am a meat popsicle.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Seneca42 said:


> I'm not a business entity. I am a meat popsicle.


Take care. The weather can turn warm suddenly.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

zzz said:


> I'm out.


**passes the popcorn***


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

jaehaerys said:


> Amazon wants marquee names in KU. To get Amazon to the table you'd have to organize the marquee indies with substantial readerships into some form of collective. I'm not even sure it would be legal to do so given we indies are all separate business entities.
> 
> Beyond that, I won't say that what you're talking about is impossible, but it certainly qualifies as highly unlikely. If it were me, I'd take the time and energy an undertaking that mammoth would require and put it into my writing and selling. But to each their own.


I'm in a private group with some other cozy authors, some of whom are heavy hitters. The world is very small. I know there are other groups too with big names in them. They organize so they can do box sets or shared world series and the like.

The discussions about KU in that group are a little different from here given that all the authors in the group are full-time and making a living from their books. We talk sales drops and KU drops and rank changes and all that.

People are trying series wide and reporting back reasonable results. I think one of the things authors really crave is some form of stability. The KU rollercoaster is awesome when you're up and making hundreds or more a day but it really sucks when you're down. The other stores definitely have more stability.

So we talk about stability vs. the rollercoaster a bit too. If you can run on the KU treadmill you can do well... or you used to be able to until they changed things. If you go wide you can have lower earnings but they're more stable.

I don't think there is much of a movement toward a collective happening just yet. We need a leader to follow and frankly most of us in this business are sick of leaders which is why we are the way we are.

I'd support an indie organisation that talked clearly about KU and other issues we face (like page flip). When all that was going on would have been the perfect time to arrange a mass unenrol in protest. It may have only been symbolic for a little while but it might have done something.

I think the power of a small committed group is not to be underestimated.


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> **passes the popcorn***


Yeah, you're right, this is super helpful of you.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

........ said:


> I'm specifically talking about this topic Elizabeth. When I see the equivalent of "lol, go see a lawyer and you do it then ha ha ha!" it's not great.


She was advising you to consult a lawyer because what you're proposing is illegal. Multiple people have pointed that out. You seem unconvinced, so you need to speak to a lawyer about it. If you can find a lawyer who tells you it's not illegal, then hire them to help you organize it and cover yourself legally.

I copy and pasted the following that I posted in another thread where this came up:

It is absolutely illegal to group boycott. The law says so and the Supreme Court has ruled on it. The Supreme Court has said specifically that businesses cannot organize to boycott a retailer. If you'll read the Wikipedia entry on United States antitrust law, you'll see the example of Fashion Originators' Guild of America v. FTC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion_Originators%27_Guild_of_America_v._FTC). The TLR version is that fashion designers got together and decided to boycott selling their clothes in stores that sell "pirated" designs (pirated is in quotes because clothes aren't protected by copyrights). The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the FTC because such an agreement restricts competition.

And if that's not enough, here is the FTC page explaining how group boycotts (like getting authors together to boycott KU) are illegal: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/group-boycotts.

There are already author organizations in place, they just don't collectively bargain or organize boycotts because they legally can't. When RWA made a post about Harlequin contracts (https://www.rwa.org/p/bl/et/blogaid=96), they specifically said, "I know that authors would like for RWA to tell them what to do, but *unfortunately, we cannot. Beyond the fact that associations cannot engage in collective bargaining*, contract terms have varied over the years, and some of the earlier contracts are likely more favorable, particularly with regard to reversion clauses." (Emphasis mine.) Courtney Milan is on the Board of Directors for RWA. She's an attorney and law professor and is incredibly active in the community. You should reach out to her and see what she says about organizing a mass KU withdrawal or trying to collectively bargain with Amazon.

Multiple people in this thread have encouraged you and others to join writer organizations. The only thing that has raised objection is the suggestion that a mass withdrawal from KU be organized. That objection is based on the illegality of the suggestion, not on the belief that it's impossible or doubt of the ability for a small group of dedicated individuals to affect change.

ETA: For those of us who do see serious problems with KU, the solution isn't to try to go down a path that is legally not open to us. If you want to see change, do exactly what you're doing here: share experiences, warn, raise red flags, keep the discussion going, add your voice so that authors trying to make this decision for themselves can do so with information you have and that you want them to keep in mind. I would also encourage you to join your genre specific organization and a group like Novelists, Inc. Voice your concerns there. Go to the NINC conference and speak directly with Amazon reps and with reps from the other retailers about how you can be successful wide. There's a lot you can do. There's just a few things that legally you can't, and it's a distraction to pursue those.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

........ said:


> I think the power of a small committed group is not to be underestimated.


The problem you run into though is that Amazon wants KU stocked with marquee names and I doubt "a small committed group" of indies qualifies as anything that would cause Bezos & Co to pay attention.

For indies to hold any sway at all I imagine they'd have to have most if not all of the top sellers speaking with one unified voice - best of luck getting that to happen. And even then that's far from a sure bet given that most of the marquee names Amazon and KU subscribers covet are trad or hybrid authors with massive readerships.

I could be wrong, but I doubt Amazon much cares what most indies want no matter how unified. Most indies participating in KU is likely viewed as just gravy for Amazon, meanwhile it's the household names of the world that truly have their ear.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I wonder too if we are arguing over different layman's interpretations of "organizing." I am NOT a lawyer, but possibly a letter of a very specific concern/request from Amazon signed by a recognizable group of authors that did not have any kind of threat in the communication would be something . . . but getting authors to stick their necks out and livelihood on the line to do something like that is probably a nonstarter.

I know price and denial of participation cannot be a part of the situation, but like RWA has sent a letter of concern to Amazon before. it's a toothless, heavily edited kind of document something that the "small group" would need vetted by someone like CF mentions.

That said, if I was in KU I would not stick my neck out on something like that. I personally feel that in many threads here there is an assumption that Amazon doesn't know what they're doing, that WE know best for Amazon, and I think their quarterly reports state otherwise. 

I'm going to NINC in a few weeks and plan to go to the presentations from Amazon, even though I am not in KU. It will be interesting to hear what they have to say, and more importantly, what they do not have to say about the future of KDP and Createspace....


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## ........ (May 4, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I wonder too if we are arguing over different layman's interpretations of "organizing."


Yes, I think you're right.

I see organisations (such as a the photographers) putting out all sorts of communications that if you went by what people have said here are boycotts, collusion or a cartel. There's not much of a difference between "we recommend not licensing your photos to businesses that do x" and a boycott in reality.

I also agree it can come down to very small differences in language and appearance. I also think that some of the stuff might hit anti-trust but no one cares enough or it's just not big enough for anyone to do anything.

My frustration from earlier stems from constantly seeing the position put forward of "you can stay in or leave" as though that's all there is to it. Then it gets worse when I see people I respect ripping into seemingly any and all ideas of what action authors could take. I want to see ideas not the equivalent of "suck it up princess", which it seems a few people get into.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Usedtoposthere said:


> And I know how much my opinion matters (picture my finger and thumb millimeters apart).


At least you still have a thumb. KU removed mine.

I'd like to see a massed effort to bombard Amazon with both author and reader emails, all saying pretty much the same thing. If its done from a form on a site, they will just block the sender. If it comes from thousands of email addresses, all individually sent, it could make a difference.

To do it, we need a big enough group of authors, and an agreed upon date to send to our lists with a recommendation and an email address to use, with a day everyone sends the emails.

I dont think this is ever going to happen, but its what I'd like to see.

I had some feedback from my recent email on why I pulled out of KU. 1 in particular asked for an email to use. That is in another thread.

Even if each author only had a dozen readers willing to email Amazon, if we had 100 authors, that's 1200 emails Amazon gets on the same day. It might be big enough to at least get them to take notice. Or it might not. Never know if we dont try.


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## wingsandwords (Nov 1, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> This was the post some of us noticed, I believe. You've since denied saying it three times, but yes, you did say it.


I've been ghosting this thread for a while now, and I only wanted to post to quote what you quoted here, because it was driving me bonkers seeing that being denied, but you beat me to it. I'm glad you actually quoted it  Even if it is being ignored that you quoted it.

Sorry for not providing anything to the discussion, but I've got things to do. -scuttles-


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Modi Gliani said:


> Another ridiculous post. I never said what you think I said. You're hallucinating.


Don't think I am...



> Why should I go somewhere else when I've made a hell of a lot of money in Select? My guess is *I've made more money here than anyone telling me to use "business strategy"*.


Then you boasted about having a million pages read over the entire life of KU, when there are posters here who regularly have millions of pages read *per month*. But please share your strategy about how you make "serious money" for the poor souls in this thread who only make 6-figures a month...


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Tilly said:


> Then you boasted about having a million pages read over the entire life of KU, when there are posters here who regularly have millions of pages read *per month*. But please share your strategy about how you make "serious money" for the poor souls in this thread who only make 6-figures a month...


That wasn't fair.

What he said was open to misinterpretation, but there's no need to get so sarcastic about it. Its why I asked for a clarification, because I had misinterpreted it.

I can place him now in relation to me, others in the thread, and those without decent traction yet. Its all relative.

He can make suggestions for people not doing as well as he is. And he might also suggest something which helps me. Who knows?

Nothing he's said about where he is in the scale of things, invalidates his opinions.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Tilly said:


> Don't think I am...
> 
> Then you boasted about having a million pages read over the entire life of KU, when there are posters here who regularly have millions of pages read *per month*. But please share your strategy about how you make "serious money" for the poor souls in this thread who only make 6-figures a month...


Since there are so many millionaires here, I'm happy for them. Happy for you too, if you're one of them. The money I make in Select is serious money to me, so I'll stick around as long as I'm making it. Meanwhile the reality is I did not ask for anyone's advice about "business strategy" and I did not offer advice to anyone. All I did was talk about a change that I would like to see in KU (advance notice of page rate) and I was jumped on and told if I did not like KU I should leave it. Nice talk, especially if it's coming from millionaires. Good luck to you in your career.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> Since there are so many millionaires here, I'm happy for them. Happy for you too, if you're one of them. The money I make in Select is serious money to me, so I'll stick around as long as I'm making it. Meanwhile the reality is I did not ask for anyone's advice about "business strategy" and I did not offer advice to anyone. All I did was talk about a change that I would like to see in KU (advance notice of page rate) and I was jumped on and told if I did not like KU I should leave it. Nice talk, especially if it's coming from millionaires. Good luck to you in your career.


While I agree that the suggestion of 'like it or leave' was uncalled for, you did dig yourself a hole by declaring that you probably made more money than anyone else, especially while showing signature books that are all ranked in the millions. I see you have now removed them.

I could declare that I have several pen names and all my books under those names are making a fortune, but it would be a lie and if I did have so many bestsellers, those are the ones I would add to my signature. I think this is a case of 'nuff said.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Doglover said:


> I could declare that I have several pen names and all my books under those names are making a fortune, but it would be a lie and if I did have so many bestsellers, those are the ones I would add to my signature. I think this is a case of 'nuff said.


What is this all about? My signature books are merely my favorites from a large catalog. What you would add or not add is your choice. So what? What are you looking for with your words? What are you so bitter about?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

TwistedTales said:


> I'm not interested in the squabble about how anyone interpreted some post you made 10 - 15 pages ago, and I can't find the post where you mentioned you have 700 books.
> 
> Seriously? 700?
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, because that's the highest number I've ever heard, what do you write?


Short fiction in several genres. I do a story a day or in two days. I had a few dozen books in print and I used them when I started in KU. If you write full time and do 15 stories a month, they pile up. I'm 88 years old and so I have the leisure to do it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> What is this all about? My signature books are merely my favorites from a large catalog. What you would add or not add is your choice. So what? What are you looking for with your words? What are you so bitter about?


I'm not bitter, just trying to point out how you stirred things up yourself. Obviously you're are never going to see it, so there you go. Being 88 years old doesn't give you licence to be right about everything.

Your suggestion that Amazon should tell us in advance what the payout is going to be, would make little or no difference to someone making as much money as you.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Doglover said:


> I'm not bitter, just trying to point out how you stirred things up yourself. Obviously you're are never going to see it, so there you go. Being 88 years old doesn't give you licence to be right about everything.
> 
> Your suggestion that Amazon should tell us in advance what the payout is going to be, would make little or no difference to someone making as much money as you.


I did not ask you to point anything out. And where did I say I'm right about everything?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Modi Gliani said:


> I did not ask you to point anything out. And where did I say I'm right about everything?


You don't have to ask; this is a public forum. If you post, you must expect people to reply.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2017)

Doglover said:


> You don't have to ask; this is a public forum. If you post, you must expect people to reply.


I expect people to be polite. You were not and are not polite.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Doglover said:


> You don't have to ask; this is a public forum. If you post, you must expect people to reply.





Modi Gliani said:


> I expect people to be polite. You were not and are not polite.


Doglover is very very direct. Polite, but direct.

Being direct can be interpreted as not being polite, but I find direct refreshing. There is way too much beating around the proverbial bush going on resulting in misinterpretations.

I'm not sure you noticed the threads with massive amounts of moderator chainsawing in them, but if you want polite, this is not the forum for it. Things get heated. Opening your mouth in here gets your keyboard stuffed it in, with your foot used to mash it in there. Its just the way this place is. I've been in worse though, and left. The mods do the job here, even if I hate the way they do it.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Modi Gliani said:


> I expect people to be polite. You were not and are not polite.


Pot, meet kettle. Doglover is a Kboards treasure. We love her, so she's allowed to be forthright, OK? When you've posted as much as she has, maybe we'll smile at your forthrightness, too.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Pot, meet kettle. Doglover is a Kboards treasure. We love her, so she's allowed to be forthright, OK? When you've posted as much as she has, maybe we'll smile at your forthrightness, too.


Ooh, shucks 

I'm the same in the real world, in case anyone was wondering. When my youngest was a teenager, she said she couldn't bring her friends round cos they were all scared of me! I'm lovable really.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Doglover is a Kboards treasure.


Yes. She was found locked in a chest, buried under a tree, on a deserted island, in some obscure pirates novel.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

zzz said:


> If Hunts, Libbys, and Del Monte decide to refuse to sell to Walmart at Walmart's price, then it's definitely collusion and/or a cartel. There is no collective bargaining rights for one company against another.
> 
> Self-published authors are not employees of Amazon any more than Hunts, Libbys, and Del Monte are employees of Walmart. Although Amazon calls what they pay us royalties (which may come back to bite them on the butt) they are by no stretch of the imagination royalties. They are wholesale payments for the products we provide to them. There is no legal, or even possible, way for self-published authors to strike against Amazon, or anyone else. It simply cannot happen. There can be no collective bargaining agreement between self-published authors and Amazon.


I don't understand where that belief originates from. Most assuredly there are author/creator unions within Europe, which also most assuredly push for better contract and remuneration levels of authors and legislation enhancing those rights. They aren't comprised of exclusively employed authors and creators.

http://www.authorsocieties.eu

http://www.societyofauthors.org/Where-We-Stand/C-R-E-A-T-O-R-Campaign-for-Fair-Contracts

https://vs.verdi.de/

https://www.authorsguild.org/who-we-are/

In addition, cartel laws - as a rule and especially in Europe - have been established to stop several large companies from colluding in secrecy against the best interests of the customers or killing a competitor by outpricing him.

They haven't been established to keep the fleas on the back of some giant corporate dog from fighting back against being squashed.

On the contrary: cartel, monopoly and trust legislation here in Europe works AGAINST Amazon, Google et al., because it sees their market shares as being close enough to a monopoly to make the cut of the definition (this to those who argue Amazon hasn't got one in the ebook market just because there are a few minor stragglers also offering ebooks).


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> Yes. She was found locked in a chest, buried under a tree, on a deserted island, in some obscure pirates novel.


An awful lot of people wish I had been left there!


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Okay everybody, I'm going to lock this and give you all some time to cool off.

It's the early hours of the morning in the US and so I'm the only Mod online. But we will discuss it in our smoke filled cave and there may be some deleting. In the meantime, there are plenty of other threads to enjoy.

Evenstar
Kboards Moderator


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