# NYT and USA Today Romance Author with a Unique Idea. Tell Me What You Think!



## RomanceAuthor12 (Mar 18, 2017)

Hi everyone!

I'm a very long time lurker but first time poster. I'd prefer not to identify myself yet but I have a couple of questions I'm hoping you can all weigh in on.

First, here are my credentials: I've made the NYT bestselling list more than two dozen times and the USA Today more than 40. I've sold more than 7,000,000 books. 

I started publishing just a few years ago and my career has settled into a really nice place. I have a large following, great rapport with my fans and I'd love if more authors could achieve the same level of success I have. 

To that end, I'm thinking of offering my guidance and my resources to romance authors who haven't hit the level of sales they'd like.

This is still a work in progress in my head, so bear with me. 

I'm thinking of a tiered system of assistance (since not everyone is looking for the same level of guidance):

These are the tiers I'm considering and the pricing. Any and all feedback appreciated!

Top Tier  - $1299.00 for the year
-Weekly one-on-one time with me (via phone or facetime).
- Six spots in my mailing list blast. (80,000 very engaged, very enthusiastic romance readers.)
- Five covers designed and delivered per year.
- One video trailer designed and delivered per year.
-Three manuscripts edited and formatted per year.(Uploaded if necessary.)
- Ongoing weekly support with plotting, etc. 

Second Tier - $899.00 for the year
-	Three spots in my mailing list blast per year.
-	Two covers designed and delivered per year. 
-	Two manuscripts edited and formatted per year. (Uploaded  if necessary.)
-	Twice monthly support with plotting, etc.
-	
Third Tier - $599.00 for the year
-	One spot in my mailing list blast per year.
-	Two covers designed and delivered per year.
-	Two manuscripts edited and formatted per year. (Uploaded if necessary.)
-	One session of support with plotting, etc  per month.

As much as I'd love to offer mentoring and assistance for free, I have to pay my designer, the person who does the formatting and my editor to help with this. 
If you're a romance author and something like this would interest you, please share that here. 
This is a very exciting prospect for me so I'm anxious to see what the level of interest is.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm curious why you're considering this. Looking at the time involved in all this, even if you've hired help to handle most of it, it seems to me that someone with your level of success would make more money just writing another book or three. Some authors like Marie Force and Gemma Holiday have started their own publishing houses, but those efforts, once launched and properly staffed, wouldn't require the personal time commitment as what you're proposing.

Like I say, just curious. I wouldn't be a candidate for a client, so, sorry, I can't provide useful feedback.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2017)

What strikes me is the price. Editing could exceed $1299 for just one book done by a reputable editor. How are you able to do three? Is it simple line editing?


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## Tavia (Jul 15, 2016)

RomanceAuthor12 said:


> - Five covers designed and delivered per year.
> - One video trailer designed and delivered per year.
> -Three manuscripts edited and formatted per year.(Uploaded if necessary.)


I would want more information on the logistics of offering other people's services as a middleman sort of thing. Would it break down to a higher or lower price than the authors would pay going directly to the designer and editor? Would the author be able to communicate directly with the designer and editor?

It seems like that might be better handled as "here's the designer I use, you can contact her here" rather than including it in a package.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

As a romance writer I think it sounds like an amazing deal but I would want to know a) who you are b) what the covers look like (and what options are available) and c) what your editors' credentials are. 

If you can really deliver all that with the quality readers and writers expect then I'd think it any of those levels would be good value for the money! Most writers already spend more than that on covers and editing.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

RomanceAuthor12 said:


> Hi everyone!
> First, here are my credentials: I've made the NYT bestselling list more than two dozen times and the USA Today more than 40. I've sold more than 7,000,000 books.


I think your offer is very generous. And it's not expensive if you sold 7 million books. Your knowledge would be priceless.


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## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

Sounds interesting. Almost like you would be better off just starting a small publishing imprint. 

I'd also say that if you are willing to put anyone who pays in your newsletter, that your list will begin to devalue pretty quickly.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

First, congrats on your success!

I'm not looking for a program like this, but I did have some thoughts as I read through your planned offerings:

1. Even at your lowest tier ($599), I'm not sure how the numbers would work for you. Just for light copyediting and proofreading I pay more than your total package cost for two manuscripts (avg 75k each). Add on top of that two cover designs and 12 (1 per month) "plotting" sessions and it seems impossible that you could provide quality work for that annual price. The gap becomes even greater at the higher tier levels you've proposed. The only thing I can think of is that you're going to attempt to build the careers of fairly newbie editors and cover designers as well as authors, so maybe they're giving you some kind of massive discount off of more standard rates.

2. You only mention your own time investment in the top tier package (facetime/skype calls). Is this the case? Is it a developmental editor that is providing the plotting sessions? If so, see #1 - the pricing now seems even more unrealistic if an author is to expect experienced guidance. Also, given your credentials, how can you possibly have time for weekly skype calls? I would assume to have the sales accomplishments over just the past few years that you've outlined, you've got an extremely agressive writing schedule. How can you realistically make this offer, unless the top tier is limited to a single client?

3. Overall, what you've outlined strikes me more as you offering to be a contractor than a mentor - subcontracting nearly all of the items to editors and designers. If that's the case, I'm not sure you'd hit your stated goal:



RomanceAuthor12 said:


> As much as I'd love to offer mentoring and assistance for free, I have to pay my designer, the person who does the formatting and my editor to help with this.


To do this right, you'd give up a lot of time to broker services between authors and vendors - unless it's just a straight referral, which again goes back to the pricing issues and ultimate quality delivered. Is a lead into starting a small press... then maybe this somehow works for what you want to accomplish.

If your goal is truly mentoring vs. starting a side publishing business, I think it would be fantastic (and more doable) to choose an up and coming/deserving author or two to give the hands-on mentoring - and give them referrals/best practices to use when picking editors, designers, etc.

Anyway, that's just my initial take based on the limited details provided.

Best of luck!


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

I think at those prices it sounds too good to be true. 

For each cover that's worth paying for, figure a value of at least $200 (assuming stock photography with photomanipulatio rather than illustrations or photo shoots)
Figure at least $300 for a trailer worth paying for
Figure at least $0.008 per word on the editing (that's low - that's not dev editing)
Figure at least $50 per email blast
Any meaningful mentoring (you say weekly 1 on 1, but then also weekly support with plotting, etc., although not specifying it's with you) at a rate of at least $100 an hour.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2017)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I want to call [bull****]. I can name a few authors who would want to do this. I bet I have it right. The numbers don't add up.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> The numbers don't add up.


Which numbers? The 7 million books sold, the 40 USA Today bestsellers or the 2 dozen NYT bestsellers? Those numbers seem, perfectly reasonable to me. The only thing that sort of rained down my parade is that after selling 7 million books you still don't get to relax on a beach somewhere, but you have to keep working. That shattered my dreams.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

WriterSongwriter said:


> Which numbers? The 7 million books sold, the 40 USA Today bestsellers or the 2 dozen NYT bestsellers? Those numbers seem, perfectly reasonable to me. The only thing that sort of rained down my parade is that after selling 7 million books you still don't get to relax on a beach somewhere, but you have to keep working. That shattered my dreams.


Don't get so fixated on those numbers. I have no idea who the OP is and that's actually not important for evaluation of this plan.

It seems to me the plan is selling *someone* severely short, maybe several someones, namely these people:

- the cover designers who have to produce covers for much less than they'd usually charge to stay within the budget
- the editors, who have to work cheaply in order to stay within the budget
- the OP when she does the above two things. Even if she massively enjoys (and is good at!) editing and cover design, it strikes me that her time is much better spent writing books
- or, worst of all, the authors who pay, and subsequently the OP realises that the sums don't add up and it's all a metric [crap]-tonne of work, and the OP makes do with cookiecutter covers, skimps on editing and on personal coaching, and leaves a trial of angry authors who are out of pocket.

Unless it's all a carefully-managed paying-forward scheme from the OP, in which case it's the only way I could see this work, but she'll lose money on it.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I want to call Bullsh%t! I can name a few authors who would want to do this. I bet I have it right. The numbers don't add up.


Yeah, something isn't adding up. At those prices, OP can't be many much money. Why wound an author with a mailing list of 80k and 7 million copies sold want to bother with such thin margins? It makes me very doubtful of OP's claims.

I cleared six figures last year and I would happily pay $1200 for covers and editing on 3-4 books. I probably spend shit that on average or 2x that much if I include a developmental edit and I really don't want to get into prices for custom photos ($500-1k+).

If you want to help mentor people, find an author or two on social media or on Amazon. Don't charge for mentorship. Just don't be surprised when/if the person you're helping out had a nice release our month than you. I've had that happen a few times.


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## StatBabe (Mar 18, 2017)

I'm with the skeptical lot on this one.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

A few comments:

If you are this successful with that many NYTs and USATs under your belt in only 2 years, I have no doubt you are a skilled writer who delivers again and again. However, that doesn't mean that you can teach or coach. That's a whole other skill set. I can totally understand wanting to get into teaching, personal coaching etc. I enjoy that myself, having taught college courses for several years in my first career.

I think the most valuable thing someone like you could offer a romance author looking for more success is _feedback_ rather than actual covers or editing, formatting, etc. Those things won't sell a book that doesn't deliver and it's writing a book that delivers that most of us have to figure out how to do.

So, I would be looking for:

- feedback on an existing book, a critique of existing cover, blurb, keywords, etc. and suggestions on how to spiff things up. This would go a long way to proving your worth as a coach.

- feedback on plots and storylines, covers, etc. of upcoming books.

- a plug on your mailing list.

- access to the professionals you use at maybe a discount.

Depending on who you are, I might be willing to pay top dollar for that and I am a six-figure author. I'd like to move to the next level (7-figures and hitting lists) and would be willing to pay for advice on where my work is lacking, and feedback on new ideas, etc.


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## Wendy Jenae (Feb 18, 2011)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> I'd do it in a heartbeat if, as Sela says, there is mentoring value included.


I agree.

In fact, I'd pay $1300/year just for weekly mentoring.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

I have to say, my initial (unwarranted) impression is that the OP would be trad published but the timeline is impossible IMO. The timeline is pretty impossible absent both own books and books in boxsets. Is 7 million entirely own books sold or including boxsets in which the OP participated? Cost of books sold? 

E.g. say all NYT were boxsets with 12 authors at .99 each - that is a gross of 102083 for each participating author for 3.5m copies sold. If the rest of the books were own books at 99c, that is gross of 1,225,000. Hitting the lists that many times requires advertising budget.

7m copies sounds amazing -- is amazing in its own right -- but it is selective use of numbers. It's not gauche in my mind to say "I've sold 7 million copies and earned over $5m." Even then, I'd want an idea of net income -- because if part of the mentoring is "buy a lot of ads," then my money was poorly spent in buying a package.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

The OP has sold seven million copies in only a few years and yet needs to hustle for consulting gigs? I'm . . . skeptical.


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## KennethEng (Mar 19, 2017)

I am curious as to why you seek advice from us. I have virtually no publishing history, which is the case for most folks here. If anything, you should be advising us on what to do! 

I would probably continue publishing books the normal way if I were you. I am not into romance, but if you were to write a sci fi romance, I might happen upon your novel sometime.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

I'm skeptical too. The top tier seems cheap for what you are offering. 
I watch many interviews with bestselling authors and most don't seem to have the time to do all that with juggling their writing career, family, home and hobbies.

If you are as successful as you say, then what *Sela* suggested would work better.

-Take one romance author and offer some advice on their manuscript (how to make it more hooky for the readers)

-help them to promote their book (what are some good promo sites for contemporary/na romance). Is there one thing you are doing that you don't see other authors doing (although that might be one secret you don't want to share)

- Offer a couple tips that are not out there on every writing forum

-Maybe offer to add them to your mailing list and plug them on social media (thats not time consuming for you and you'd be plugging an author that you have helped and worked with.)

- As Sela said, offer a discount to work with your cover designer and editor OR recommend someone else that you know does good work

Charge or don't charge. That's up to you.


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

How long did you hold the top spots in those promotions? Was it achieved based on money spent, or because the books stuck on the top seller lists for a month without massive payment boosts to keep them there? Those are the sorts of questions experienced writers will want to know. Which is why I couldn't answer you, as to if what you are offering is good value or not. I've no idea who you are or what your qualifications are. People have bought those top spots. Sometimes it works for them, sometimes not. 

If you were excellent at mentoring and editing those are great prices. I've paid prices like that for private tutorial, without all of the other bonuses. 

Mailing list sizes go over my head, I'm only interested in the open and act on numbers. 

I'd jump at your top tier deal, and write my first pure romance novel, rather than a crime with romance as an extra, if the deal was as good as it sounds and I had a mentor as good as you. 
It's because it sounds too-good-to-be-true, and you are anonymous, I'd pull back with extreme caution. I know how much time mentoring, promoting and editing (I don't edit my own books) takes.

What I don't understand is, if you are such a successful author, why aren't you using a professional editor and focusing on writing.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

oakwood said:


> Welcome to KBoards where we habitually hit newcomers on the head


LOL, but we hit them on the head with honest feedback, not baseball bats.  There are some very, very experienced authors here, from all genres and levels of success, so it's actually the perfect place to fly this kind of kite.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Having done some editing of indie manuscripts, one would have to be extremely selective of clients in order to do the editing alone. Unfortunately, the educational systems in the U.S. and U.K. (the only countries whose denizens I've edited for) have stopped preparing their students to use the written word. For me to edit three manuscripts at a little over $400 each, I would not be making any money, even if they were clean when I received them.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

My Dog's Servant said:


> I'm curious why you're considering this. Looking at the time involved in all this, even if you've hired help to handle most of it, it seems to me that someone with your level of success would make more money just writing another book or three. Some authors like Marie Force and Gemma Holiday have started their own publishing houses, but those efforts, once launched and properly staffed, wouldn't require the personal time commitment as what you're proposing.
> 
> Like I say, just curious. I wouldn't be a candidate for a client, so, sorry, I can't provide useful feedback.


I agree. Why would someone who is such a best selling author as to obviously be making millions our her books want to spend their valuable time on helping the competition?

I would definitely want to know who you are, I would want more than your word that you are this bestselling author, I would want samples of these wonderful covers and I'd want to know that the people doing the editing know what they are doing.

Romance is a competitive genre; why do you want to bring in more competition?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

KennethEng said:


> I am curious as to why you seek advice from us. I have virtually no publishing history, which is the case for most folks here.


 I must take issue with that. At least 50% of the authors on this board have many years and many dollars of publishing history under their belts. If you believe otherwise, why did you come here seeking advice for your first book? There are NYT and USA bestselling authors posting regularly to this board as well as others making seven figures a year. Yet they have, according to you, virtually no publishing history?


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

I think the mentoring alone would make this valuable to romance authors who would like to build their brand. I agree with others who have said that's where your focus should lie, should you choose to move forward with this plan. Good luck!


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

oakwood said:


> Joking aside, I haven't seen this offer in another forum where it would have made uh.. more sense, and for that reason alone sign me up with the skepticals.


It's not against the rules of forums.romancedivas.com to mention it outside the boards, is it?  I'm assuming that's where you were referring. RD isn't always open join - I don't know if they are closed now to new members or for how long they have been. That could be why you didn't see it there, if that's the forum you meant.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> LOL, but we hit them on the head with honest feedback, not baseball bats.  There are some very, very experienced authors here, from all genres and levels of success, so it's actually the perfect place to fly this kind of kite.


^ Yes, this. 

I like the idea of it, but I think the prices are low if you are trying to make it a profitable side-venture from your writing. I've sold a heck of a lot less books than you, and my side promo business requires enough attention that it needs full time staff. I love love love doing promos & helping out other authors at a reasonable price, but I need time to actually write books, since that's my full time gig. 
If you're taking a break from writing and want to do it because you simply want to help other authors, I think it's great, and that it would probably be a great value. (And a cool thing, too, because I love paying it forward.)


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

RomanceAuthor12 said:


> I'd prefer not to identify myself yet


A preference which isn't helping you in the slightest.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

No.

But I'm sure the PMs are pouring in of people wanting a secret to success. 

If you want to just create a course or heck, even a sequence of How-To Ebooks that cost that much, you'd help far more and make more and still have time to tend to your own massive empire.

But my hunch is that your 7,000,000 ebooks sold were predominantly at $0.99 with a ridiculous percentage of revenue funneled back into promotions, some of which are much less effective than before, and your "letters" were earned with multi-author boxed sets in which case, that's not really a secret or something that has to be coached. Its just a ton of work many don't put in. And if it was still profiting you well, you wouldn't need a consultant business on the side. Like others have said, you'd make a publishing company.

All monies should flow to the author. If someone wants to get involved in grooming someone, they need to setup to take a cut like an Agent or an Acquisition Editors would. 5-10% of a set time period of monies made. Anything that is pay me $1200 to $600 is someone looking to fill a cash flow problem.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

RomanceAuthor12 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I'm a very long time lurker but first time poster. I'd prefer not to identify myself yet but I have a couple of questions I'm hoping you can all weigh in on.
> 
> ...


Quoted before it is removed or changed by poster.

Guys, please be wary. I don't personally think this is a long time lurker who just decided to join yesterday and post this. I think many of us have seen this before and have an idea of who it is. It's not a nice tactic to create a second/third account to stay anonymous when such sums are involved. But I hope I'm wrong.



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No.
> 
> If you're someone not willing to say who you are on Kboards it's because you don't have a clean reputation. But I'm sure the PMs are pouring in of people wanting a secret to success.
> 
> ...


Yes. Caveat Emptor!


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I think many of us think it's someone closely tied to that group. It's just too similar to other programs that have been pitched from that crowd. If the OP is NOT, then happy to be wrong, but he or she should know, this isn't a new or unique idea and the time aspect makes it a failing business system unless they're looking to take on clients with no intention to fulfill the very time-consuming promises outlined.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_ 
_Further edited to remove quoted post. - Becca_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm not the target audience, but I'd say to the OP, it seems odd. For comparison, I've sold (or had borrow-equivalents) of close to 1.5 million books (my own books) over the past 4 years or so. Mostly at $4.99. That's quite a lot, but 7 million is a LOT-lot. There's a limited number of people this could be, if it isn't a whole ton of boxed sets at 99 cents. And if it's one of the very top indies (and you bet they've sold 7 million or more of their books in the past five years and have hit lists this many times), it really doesn't make sense.

No--the pricing doesn't make sense anyway. As others have said, the covers alone. The editing alone. And then the weekly sessions. It isn't enough money to pay for all those things, and somebody at this level of success would absolutely know that. So it's setting off my flashers despite my wish to believe the best of people. 

It'd probably be best to reveal your name, OP, if all this concern is unjustified. If you're subsidizing this venture heavily out of a genuine desire to pay it forward.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> No--the pricing doesn't make sense anyway. As others have said, the covers alone. The editing alone. And then the weekly sessions. It isn't enough money to pay for all those things, and somebody at this level of success would absolutely know that. So it's setting off my flashers despite my wish to believe the best of people.


I would imagine all this is outsourced. The designer / editor get a very reduced fee but the possibility of repeat custom?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think many of us think it's someone closely tied to that group. It's just too similar to other programs that have been pitched from that crowd. If the OP is NOT, then happy to be wrong, but he or she should know, this isn't a new or unique idea and the time aspect makes it a failing business system unless they're looking to take on clients with no intention to fulfill the very time-consuming promises outlined.
> 
> _Edited quoted post. --Betsy
> Slight additional edit. - Becca_


I'm just glad I'm not the only one who has that "aw, heck no!" response for a change! There's no way any of that could be done properly for the fees stated. Even I know that much. And big-selling authors just wouldn't have time to do it.

But I'm sure some have jumped on the PM boat and signed right up. Good luck to them.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

One last general information tip.... ANY service or company wanting you to pay through Paypal's "family/friend" run away. It's a tactic that is pitched as "oh so there's no fees" but the reality is it also erases most of your consumer protection. You can't get a refund if you need one. Paying fees is part of any business, there's even a block on your Schedule C to deduct them if they would be included in your overall income statements....  

Okay, now I really have to get hot planning out quarters of 3rd grade... and finishing off 2nd grade... good luck and be careful everyone.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

The other thing I will say it's that romance is way too big of a genre for OP to be able to help all romance writers. Even BookBub has four romances genres of contemporary and another one or two of PNR. Not all of them have much cross over of audiences. An 80k email list built on a Bella Andre type series don't help someone writing dark romance or sexy NA and visa versa.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Reports received. Locking so I can catch up ...

_Note from Betsy: Being discussed. We expect to reopen, eventually. However, I want to say two things right now
--we have no reason at this point to believe that this is a secondary account by any member of KBoards, as has been suggested, and
--we have many members who choose to post anonymously for a variety of reasons. I can readily understand why someone, who is floating an idea and looking for feedback as a new poster here might make their initial foray without revealing their name. Healthy skepticism is fine, but some of the posts here have gone a step too far. As I said, we're discussing. Feel free to PM one of us if you have questions or comments, thanks.

Becca, excuse me for intruding.  --Betsy_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Folks, we're unlocking this after making a number of edits and deletions.

Threads like this raise the issue of KBoards's role as a sort of community-driven vetter of indie service providers. That role is vital; indie authors work in a sector without a whole lot of protections, so we need to act as one another's protectors, as best we can (as EAW did in suggesting we avoid the friends/family PayPal option). We don't want to lose that protective function of the forum or the skeptical mindset that goes with it.

But that vital and generous effort to protect can be carried too far/pushed too fast. An internet forum is ill-equipped to make fully informed declarations about whether or not a service is a scam, totally on the up and up, or somewhere in between. Assumptions are often wrong; things that seem just too coincidental often really are coincidences; and we all have a tendency to judge new info through the lenses of our existing knowledge, values, and positions. Forums lack the tools to overcome these limitations, so judgments reached here need to be cautious and recognized as provisional.

People have pointed out that RomanceAuthor12 seems to have underpriced their proposed service vis-a-vis the time and expense involved in running it. But to jump from that concrete and defensible observation to the assertion that RomanceAuthor12 is doing something underhanded is premature. And it's risky, because once the assumption of underhandedness is in place, it seems only ethical to try to strip RomanceAuthor12 of their anonymity. Despite the absence of proof, speculation that Romance Author12 is another KB member starts to assume the weight of fact. The guilty verdicts become more entrenched all around, despite the fact that what's been formed is a highly speculative construction.

An alternate explanation is that RomanceAuthor12 is already filthy rich from those 7 million sales and doesn't need more money, but would like to give back to the indie community, with the fees -- low for what they cover, but certainly not nothing -- being intended to deter writers who aren't highly committed to their careers or truly open to being mentored in the way RomanceAuthor12 has in mind.

Or the truth could be something totally different. We just don't know. So ... let's do our due diligence by asking questions and pointing out elements of the proposal that strike us as odd. Let's respect RomanceAuthor12's choice to post anonymously, and let's avoid accusations and assumptions. Interested parties can and should contact RomanceAuthor12 to request supporting information supporting their claims.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> One last general information tip.... ANY service or company wanting you to pay through Paypal's "family/friend" run away. It's a tactic that is pitched as "oh so there's no fees" but the reality is it also erases most of your consumer protection. You can't get a refund if you need one. Paying fees is part of any business, there's even a block on your Schedule C to deduct them if they would be included in your overall income statements....
> 
> Okay, now I really have to get hot planning out quarters of 3rd grade... and finishing off 2nd grade... good luck and be careful everyone.


So agree & can't stress this point enough. I've been burned by this from a service in the past when I was a new-ish author. 

Catching up with the rest of the thread now & hope the OP returns to answer some of the questions posed, because this "unique idea" does sound strangely familiar.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

I don't think there should be an online dog pile. But something like this could do real damage to a writer who is frustrated and trying to get noticed. $1299 may be nothing to someone like me, Anne, Jana, or others making good money from our books. But someone with a day job, supporting their family it could really hurt. 
You see, I know how much these services cost when done professionally. And an actual best selling author would certainly want their name represented by quality work. Top tier pricing wouldn't cover editing for one book by anyone reputable. And even your basic cover made with common stock art is over $100. Then there is the one-on one's. If we were talking about a contest winner, I could see it. But to hope for multiple clients? It's insane. Half your time would be spent on the phone.
Someone could possibly do it themselves. But they would need to be an expert in every aspect of indie publishing and be able to work at a speed I've never seen before. So I suppose this person is quitting writing...or sleeping. One or the other.
So none of it makes a bit of sense. Not for that price. It's high enough to seem legitimate to a newbie, and cheap enough to be within the range of affordability. When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

For those who question why a successful author would take on this kind of venture when s/he could do lots better writing more books, I would point out that James Patterson, America's highest paid author ($95M/yr), sells his Masters course on writing and publishing for $80. I don't think Patterson needs the money.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> For those who question why a successful author would take on this kind of venture when s/he could do lots better writing more books, I would point out that James Patterson, America's highest paid author ($95M/yr), sells his Masters course on writing and publishing for $80. I don't think Patterson needs the money.


But the Masters course is one investment in time and then done. It's selling a product. It's feedback from other students and "possibly James himself"

That's what people are trying to point out... it's not that anyone with major money wouldn't help, it's just not typically in this way because it's a huge time sink. And for many of us the offer sounded very familiar to similar programs in the past that didn't end well.

Maybe the OP didn't realize he or she was putting forth something that has been done many times since the birth of the Kindle Direct Publishing platform... but this has been done before and it's just a huge mismatch of motivations. The program is both too expensive and too cheap at the same time.

Betsy and Becca . . . I was very very careful in my post. Hope I stayed inside the lines this time. 

_EAW, all is good!  --Betsy_


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

*For authors who have PMed RomanceWriter12 or who are considering PMing him/her:*

This could be an amazing opportunity. It could lead into a very bad situation. Or anything in between. We don't know - so be cautious and take some steps to protect yourself before leaping in.

*1. Google the author's name* with phrases like "scammer", "bad experience", "lies". I'm not saying OP is any of this - but there are a lot of sharks in the water, and a quick google search can sometimes reveal them. Check how they behave on social media and search writing forums for mentions of them.

*2. Make sure you have a contract.* It doesn't have to be anything fancy or go through a lawyer; just a clear lay out of expectations, limitations, and what happens if either party flakes. I cannot stress this enough - never do business without a contract! Conversely, if they present a contract, _read it carefully_.

*3. Check their credentials.* There's a difference between selling seven million copies of individual books you wrote and selling seven million copies of box sets you helped manage / joined. Have a look at their store rankings on Amazon and any wide stores they're a part of. Check how many Goodreads reviews their books have. Are the numbers adding up? (Hint: expect to see one Amazon review per 100-150 copies sold)

*4. Don't do anything that feels "off".* Like Elizabeth Ann West said, don't send Paypal money through Friends and Family - you lose your protection. Don't be pressured into buying or reviewing other authors' books to "help" them launch. Don't follow any advice that seems to circumvent Amazon's rules, either in word or in spirit. You could be risking your account.

*5. If in doubt, ask.* An author who has sold 7 million books will be well-known. PM or email a few people you trust to ask about the author's reputation.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Al Stevens said:


> For those who question why a successful author would take on this kind of venture when s/he could do lots better writing more books, I would point out that James Patterson, America's highest paid author ($95M/yr), sells his Masters course on writing and publishing for $80. I don't think Patterson needs the money.


But how much time does that masters course cost him? The OP is about personal consulting. It's a very time intensive offer.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Self-publishers generally self-publish in part because they like having control over all aspects of their work. I'm not sure many serious authors would be interested in package deals like this, as we generally prefer an ala carte menu. I may not want to hire an editor, or I might have my own editor I already like. I really like to have a lot of control over my covers, so I could never see simply passing that off entirely to someone else. Also, the fact that you seem to be subcontracting most of these services makes me wonder what the point is at all.

If the services that you personally have to offer are mainly consulting services, then sell that. Otherwise, as others have said, it sounds like what you really want to do is start a small press--which, if that's the case, means you should probably just start a small press instead.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> For those who question why a successful author would take on this kind of venture when s/he could do lots better writing more books, I would point out that James Patterson, America's highest paid author ($95M/yr), sells his Masters course on writing and publishing for $80. I don't think Patterson needs the money.


Patterson isn't personally mentoring those students week in/week out.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

My point isn't to compare Patterson's effort to the OP's intentions. It is only to say that huge success doesn't automatically exempt someone from wanting to get into something that might be--or even has to be--less lucrative.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Kate. said:


> *For authors who have PMed RomanceWriter12 or who are considering PMing him/her:*
> 
> This could be an amazing opportunity. It could lead into a very bad situation. Or anything in between. We don't know - so be cautious and take some steps to protect yourself before leaping in.
> 
> ...


Great list. I should say, though, that I personally get more like 1 Amazon review for every 1,000 copies purchased/full-read equivalents. (This doesn't even count free copies, which have a much lower review ratio.) I don't think this is uncommon in romance.

Otherwise, I completely agree with this list as a way to assess a potential investment like this. There are great classes etc. that provide value, I know. There are also bad actors. The only way to know which is which is to do your homework.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

It has been warned never to engage with any business that requires you to pay through 'friends and family' paypal, but is there a way to tell without asking? I've never really noticed as I don't use it to pay very often.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

The fact that the OP hasn't returned to the thread to respond or allay any fears speaks volumes to me. Am I the only one to think this? He/She _has_ logged in again since posting.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

The OP would likely make more in the long run by writing a book about it, like Stephen King.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Perhaps there should be a duty of care procedure applied with anyone who posts with a view to getting paid. The same google searches etc being suggested here could be done by mods/volunteers prior to publication. It would always, of course, be caveat emptor, but such a setup would probably deter at least some of those whose intentions are not honest.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping here to clarify a couple of points that have been made here and via PM to me.  

As I read the original post, it's posed as an idea for a business, not a currently running enterprise, with a request for feedback on a concept, which has been provided.  Such feedback is a strength here.  As a request for feedback vs an actual vendor thread, we would not require that the poster provide contact info to the membership as it does not appear that the poster is currently offering this service. A vendor announcing a current business would have to provide a way for potential customers to contact him or her. (We are continuing to discuss this issue.) This is not the first time a member has posted with an idea for a business model and asked about its viability. If I've missed something, please let me know.

Members are allowed to post anonymously here or under a business name.  We do not out posters who choose to post anonymously here.  However, I will say that the RomanceAuthor12 has a valid email address and a web presence separate from his or her posts here.

As far as vetting before posting, we would have to either turn on post approval for all posts (which, while it would probably result in far fewer food fights on the forum, would be burdensome for both members and moderators) or create vendors as a separate class of members which, in this case, would probably not have prevented this post from going through as (1) the member is not yet a vendor and (2) see comments above about our review of the poster.  Finally, the knowledge base and experiences of our membership do a far better job of vetting and asking questions than we could.

I do think that the fact that RomanceAuthor12 has not responded to any of the questions here indicates, at the least, that he or she may have thought better of this business model.  This thread continues to be a subject of discussion in the smoke filled admin caves.

EDIT:  In addition, KBoards is usually not the only place where proposals such as the OP's are made; by allowing a public discussion of the proposal vs one done only in the admin cave, it creates a publicly searchable record.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I will raise my hand and say I was the one who sent the PM.

I agree just asking for viability of a business idea is a fairly normal posting. I think it's when someone just made an account, posts an idea for a service or product and then ghosts or just handles inquiries by PM it's what causes everyone to jump. We are the ones who get the people who were duped after the fact, and in some cases it's thousands of dollars lost. 

My suggestion was to make a rule about new accounts making anonymous business lead type posts, even "I have this idea for a business" because it's a new account UNLESS they are willing to say who they are. That protects this community from continual frisking by businesses and services that have, like you say Betsy, a track record of mixed results, from reinventing themselves as this new entity. Now, someone who has been posting and contributing, and they're anonymous, totally different story. We know that person has come to Kboards to be a part of Kboards, not just try to find new customers.

Basically, if you're here just to find new customers, which is a valid use of the board, you shouldn't be able to be anonymous. If you're here as a member in any capacity and then have an idea for a business or service, then you're not just here for new customers, it was a legitimate "hmmm I wonder if..."

Because right now, we get the anonymous business opportunity posts, which the OP asked for anyone interested in signing up to reply, so it was a Call to Action, many of the veterans try our best to say "Whoa, hold up, we've seen how this goes many, many times," and we get in trouble (though I agree that I went beyond where I should, and I do apologize...) and more of our fellow Kboarders are victimized. And when it's all said and done.... they feel like no one warned them... because we couldn't.

IN this case, I think THIS thread has PLENTY of warning in it. Anyone getting involved in any business opportunity can apply much of the advice given here to feel out a new opportunity. But in the future  . . . I am glad the mods are duscussing what to do about business type anonymous posts, especially if it affects other parts of the forum as well.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm okay with threads like this, so long as the skepticism doesn't get moderated out of existence.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Agree 100% with Elizabeth. If someone comes here with the view (even with just the intention) of soliciting business, they should not be allowed to be anonymous.

Some people will already have PMed the OP (because people are desperate and do rash things without checking). If the OP wants to coach writers by way of paying it forward, that's actually awesome, but it still sounds like way too much work to be viable. 

But if it's a business... I assume the business model is at risk of collapse because it's not terribly sound and I can't imagine that someone who sells that much needs to do this for profit. Or in some other way, something will blow up and people will be unhappy and out of pocket. And then it's people like Elizabeth and myself, and others who are not anonymous, who get to be the shoulders that everyone cries on.

One of the great things about the KB is its infallible BS meter. Not saying it's at code red over this proposal, but anonymity from someone who will have recruited some people already via PM does nothing to help us give the yay or nay.

I, for one, am rather sick of consoling people who have lost thousands in ill-advised deals. TBH I'd much rather write.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> I'm in the camp that sees more signs the OP is on the up-and-up than signs they are not...


They sent you proof of their sales or which pen names of theirs appeared on the bestsellers lists? Can you post it here, please?


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> *Is there any way for those raising objections to avoid using terms like desperate and rash and generally bad gullible-like thing* to describe fellow writers on this board who are considering contacting the OP? Such language feels like a slap in the face rather than an attempt to help.
> 
> ...


No, there isn't.

If you want to get the point across you kind of need to make it ruthlessly. Patty is absolutely right, listen to her, she's trying to warn you not insult you! I've been on this board since 2012 and I've seen this happen more than once.

By all means contact the OP, but don't be gullible or rash or desperate. Do some research. She's trying to say that in terms that make it really clear not to rush headlong into a proposal like this without being sure of who you're dealing with. None of us are saying it's a scam, we're just saying it seems like something to investigate thoroughly before parting with cash.

It isn't a coincidence the most of us who are trying to get this point across are _not_ anonymous. 
And please realise that we're sticking our necks on the line to try to warn people who haven't been here so long, because there could easily be a backlash from voicing our concerns. Most of us have been the victim of 1 star retaliation at one point or another for being honest if we think something doesn't add up. But we are not hiding behind an anonymous name. Who would you rather trust?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> No, there isn't.
> 
> If you want to get the point across you kind of need to make it ruthlessly. Patty is absolutely right, listen to her, she's trying to warn you not insult you! I've been on this board since 2012 and I've seen this happen more than once.
> 
> ...


How very well put.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> Er? I was asking for courtesy and respect. You don't have to give it if you don't want to. You always do seem courteous and respectful, though, to everyone, even while getting your point across. I find your contributions valuable.
> 
> But since you bring it up, which seems more likely to help a person make business decisions unemotionally - a shaming post or a friendly warning?
> 
> ...


I think we have been very friendly, quite frankly. We have a lot of new posters coming here with great ideas to help us all, when to the well seasoned it is obviously they are only trying to feather their own nests. And it is the newbies and the desperate they are counting on; there is no detriment in saying so. It is true. This poster might turn out to be all that she claims, but given that she hasn't been back, I am doubtful.

Just as an aside, I don't think the moderators are waiting for your consent to do their job.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Just as an aside, I don't think the moderators are waiting for your consent to do their job.


Doglover! You know I think you're great, but that's not going to help!

Are you doing okay? You seem a bit grumpy recently.... I'm a PM away if you want to have a vent x


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Doglover! You know I think you're great, but that's not going to help!
> 
> Are you doing okay? You seem a bit grumpy recently.... I'm a PM away if you want to have a vent x


I've always been grumpy; it's part of my charm. I'll PM you.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> *No, there isn't.
> 
> If you want to get the point across you kind of need to make it ruthlessly. *Patty is absolutely right, listen to her, she's trying to warn you not insult you! I've been on this board since 2012 and I've seen this happen more than once.
> 
> ...


I, for one, appreciate the honesty of your (and others') posts when it comes to warning authors.

I know several people who have been taken advantage of because those in the know were too polite to issue any kind of warning. Scammers (bullies too) win when people are afraid to speak out.

Sugarcoating can be unhelpful. I think most of us on this board are professionals or striving to be. In that regard, we should all be wearing our big girl/boy pants and be able to deal with blunt, honest posts.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Doglover said:


> I think we have been very friendly, quite frankly. We have a lot of new posters coming here with great ideas to help us all, when to the well seasoned it is obviously they are only trying to feather their own nests. And it is the newbies and the desperate they are counting on; there is no detriment in saying so. It is true. This poster might turn out to be all that she claims, but given that she hasn't been back, I am doubtful.
> 
> *Just as an aside, I don't think the moderators are waiting for your consent to do their job.*


I'm not surprised the OP hasn't responded yet. They probably never will. Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately which this thread shows. Especially when when a member doesn't know what you know after only being here for a few days and getting told this in a far too blunt way.
Being ruthless isn't constructive if that's all you bring to the table.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> It isn't a coincidence the most of us who are trying to get this point across are _not_ anonymous.
> And please realise that we're sticking our necks on the line to try to warn people who haven't been here so long, because there could easily be a backlash from voicing our concerns. Most of us have been the victim of 1 star retaliation at one point or another for being honest if we think something doesn't add up. But we are not hiding behind an anonymous name. Who would you rather trust?


True story ^^.



JalexM said:


> I'm not surprised the OP hasn't responded yet. They probably never will. Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately which this thread shows. Especially when when a member doesn't know what you know after only being here for a few days and getting told this in a far too blunt way.
> Being ruthless isn't constructive if that's all you bring to the table.


The OP may have only been here for a few days, but she makes a lot of statements that would infer she is an expert in the industry -- especially by stating that she is considering charging for her guidance. She isn't a newbie who doesn't understand how it all works, and her business proposal would be targeting authors who have much less experience and knowledge of the industry. That's why there are experienced members here asking hard questions and trying to give newbies/anyone considering contacting the OP plenty of info.

I agree with Patty, too. It stinks hearing stories from authors who have been scammed by those who've run similar gigs to what the OP is proposing. Of course it would be wonderful if authors contact the OP, privately discuss qualifications and details, and come to a mutually satisfying agreement. Yet I continue to be stumped by why a person who sold 7 million books and has made the "NYT bestselling list more than two dozen times and the USA Today more than 40" isn't willing to disclose her identity. It's certainly not against the rules to be anonymous, but even giving her feedback as to the viability of her proposal (which she came here looking for) is kinda pointless if we don't know who she is. If she's someone who made a bunch of bestseller lists because she paid money to be in a zillion 20-author box sets, her experience and advice is going to be of a different value vs and author who sold all those books and made all those lists on her own. Would I be interested in a mentoring course by John Locke on how to get reviews? No way. So he's a NYT Bestselling author, sold millions, yadda yadda. None of that means squat to me. There are NYT & USA Today Bestselling authors out the yin yang on this board, and a good amount of authors who've sold millions, and they give their advice and guidance here on KBoards for free.
Public reputation and public persona definitely makes a difference when you're offering "mentoring" services for large amounts of money.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> crow.bar.beer: I have only the facts you do.


Nah, I've got nothing. The most I saw was the OP say they were a NYT bestselling author that'd sold seven million books. Floating a business idea by appealing to one's identity while not revealing that identity is trying to have something both ways. Whether or not we each glean from this that they are crooked or legitimate, that practice itself is *wrong.*


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

ebbrown said:


> Would I be interested in a mentoring course by John Locke on how to get reviews? No way.


Ha. I haven't snort-laughed in awhile.

Thanks for that.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

JalexM said:


> Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately which this thread shows. Especially when when a member doesn't know what you know after only being here for a few days and getting told this in a far too blunt way.


I'm a new member here, and I've felt welcome. Of course, I can be more than a little blunt myself, and I came here after doing about 6 months of research into the whole self-publishing thing elsewhere on the internet, although I think if I'd found this board when I was first starting my information search, I probably would have felt just as welcome. Can some people here be a little gruff and heavy-handed about their own opinions? Sure. But in my time here so far, I have found only a very few people actually cross the line to being mean, and the mods are diligent about keeping things civil.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Ha. I haven't snort-laughed in awhile.
> 
> Thanks for that.


My pleasure! &#128540;&#128540;

But now I'm waiting for someone to ask who John Locke is. &#128563;&#128541;


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

JalexM said:


> I'm not surprised the OP hasn't responded yet. They probably never will. Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately which this thread shows. Especially when when a member doesn't know what you know after only being here for a few days and getting told this in a far too blunt way.
> Being ruthless isn't constructive if that's all you bring to the table.


Making claims about being a best-seller and promises of sharing your success with others for a fee without providing any evidence to back up said claims is also not constructive. People have been hurt by these types of offers in the past and the posters who are being "ruthless" have a right to be suspicious. Because they've either seen or have been personally screwed over by people like this in the past.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I would also say that when it comes to service providers, which is what the OP may be unless, as I said, she's doing this as a pay-it-forward program, it's absolutely not the KB's primary task to be welcoming no matter what. We evaluate services and pick holes if there are any to be picked. One should think that a service provider should be astute enough to handle pointy questions. Because the lasting quality of a business (any service, any business, any industry) is determined not by the product or service, but by how the business responds when, inevitably, something effs up.

The OP even asked (in the subject line, no less) what we think, so I don't think anyone was being unnecessarily mean, just cautious in the conspicuous absence of identifying material. 

Yes, and in another window on this computer I'm taking to yet another writer who has lost thousands, so I really do want to warn people not to be rash or have the wool pulled over their eyes by the bestseller tags.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

JalexM said:


> I'm not surprised the OP hasn't responded yet. They probably never will. Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately...


This isn't some wet behind the ears newbie, but by their own definition a very experienced author who has sold millions of books and hit the lists multiple times. Although as others have rightly pointed out, anyone can claim anything anonymously.

Personally I think its great that more experienced k-boarders look out for the newbies, the innocent, and even the gullible. I've seen lots of new services pop up here and there's always a rush of people who throw money first and only stop to ask questions after its all gone pear shaped. As PT Barnum said, "there's one born every minute" and there are numerous scam advertisers, promoters and service providers springing up to relieve naive writers of excess cash.

If the op was entirely legit then they would come back and allay concerns by offering more information. Very telling that they appear to have slunk away instead.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

ebbrown said:


> My pleasure! &#128540;&#128540;
> 
> But now I'm waiting for someone to ask who John Locke is. &#128563;&#128541;


The bald guy on the tv show, "Lost."


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

JalexM said:


> I'm not surprised the OP hasn't responded yet. They probably never will. Kboards has been less inviting to newer members lately which this thread shows. Especially when when a member doesn't know what you know after only being here for a few days and getting told this in a far too blunt way.
> Being ruthless isn't constructive if that's all you bring to the table.


I could be wrong about this, but I think a lot of what is received by newer people to kboards as being harsh or less than inviting is often just plain ol' simple directness from a lot of 'been-there-done-that' folks who don't have the time nor inclination to beat around the bush. I think that's a good thing.

I also think that that directness often winds up being misconstrued by newcomers as maliciousness because tone is lost in text. Of course, there are exceptions here and there, but most of the time I view kboards as a place where self-pub sages waste little time in delivering the straight goods. It's tough love around here, and sometimes the medicine tastes bad, but when it comes to a career we're all serious about and real dollars on the line, I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## D A Bale (Oct 20, 2016)

Ken Ward said:


> I could be wrong about this, but I think a lot of what is received by newer people to kboards as being harsh or less than inviting is often just plain ol' simple directness from a lot of 'been-there-done-that' folks who don't have the time nor inclination to beat around the bush. I think that's a good thing.
> 
> I also think that that directness often winds up being misconstrued by newcomers as maliciousness because tone is lost in text. Of course, there are exceptions here and there, but most of the time I view kboards as a place where self-pub sages waste little time in delivering the straight goods. It's tough love around here, and sometimes the medicine tastes bad, but when it comes to a career we're all serious about and real dollars on the line, I wouldn't have it any other way.


Here here, Ken


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Nah, it's this guy:
> 
> John Locke


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm an editor. I would like to know how you can provide all of that for $1299. Of your 6 items, I provide 4. $1299 would not cover one of those 4 line items. Unless they were short stories, of course. I could probably do 3 short stories for $1299. Might even have some change, too. I definitely couldn't do a twice a week one-on-one for $1299. That's assuming it's 30 minutes per meeting. Feel free to PM me. I'm sincerely interested in how you can provide all of that for that cost. There's no way I could. Or would. If the skepticism is unwarranted and you truly have the credentials you say you have, I would think you're going to be booked to the extent that you'll lose money. I don't see it being sustainable. You'll eventually want to get paid properly for your time, because you will quickly have no time for anything else. 

YMMV.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Silly Writer said:


> The bald guy on the tv show, "Lost."


I was about to say that, then I remembered. Great programme, though, if a little confusing.

For those who believe some of us are being too sceptical, cynical, harsh, whatever, there is a newcomer on this forum who has spent nearly $1000 to have her paperback formatted by someone who obviously hadn't a clue what they were doing. That person wishes they had come here first for advice.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Doglover said:


> > Quote from: Silly Writer on Yesterday at 09:28:54 PM
> > The bald guy on the tv show, "Lost."
> 
> 
> ...


I would buy review advice from John Locke on Lost. He's legit. 

Agree on seeing authors get taken every day for lots and lots of cash. I've been there when I was a newbie before I came to KBoards, and I wish to Hades that others had warned me in a direct, pointed manner without beating around the bush. When I was a new author, I was so new to the biz that I didn't even know what I didn't know. And now that I know what I didn't know, I know better. 

Also, I revisited this thread today to apologize to anyone that I offended with my remark about the bestseller lists earlier in the thread. I received a FB message regarding it & I explained to the author I was not slamming anyone, and we resolved it and I think she probably does not hate me now so much. But since plenty of people browse this forum without commenting, I would like to make myself clear. The quote in question is this:


> If she's someone who made a bunch of bestseller lists because she paid money to be in a zillion 20-author box sets, her experience and advice is going to be of a different value vs and author who sold all those books and made all those lists on her own. Would I be interested in a mentoring course by John Locke on how to get reviews? No way. So he's a NYT Bestselling author, sold millions, yadda yadda. None of that means squat to me. There are NYT & USA Today Bestselling authors out the yin yang on this board, and a good amount of authors who've sold millions, and they give their advice and guidance here on KBoards for free.


I was in no way intending to bash or diminish the achievement of authors who make USAT or NYT Bestseller lists with multi-author box sets. That's a cool thing to participate in and readers love box sets. I think it's freakin' fabulous that we have tons of authors here who have made lists, and I love talking with those authors and learning from them every day. My intent in making a comparison between those who have made the lists with box sets vs those who have made it with an individual book was to illustrate that there are very different skill sets involved achieving that status. Joining an organized set with an experienced promoter who has a track record of getting box sets on the lists does not make an author an expert on how to get on a list; *it makes the author a participant who was guided by an expert*. An author who has shot his/her own books onto the list without expert intervention/guidance *likely is an expert* at that and has qualities that might be worth paying to be mentored by. They're two different animals, and the knowledge base for mentoring is quite diverse.

As for the John Locke comment, it is what it is. Just because an author has "letters" after his name, it doesn't suddenly make him/her a reliable resource. I bet plenty of authors would buy a review mentoring course from John Locke. I use Google search before I sign up for anything substantial, so no, I wouldn't pay for his services. I've read posts by USAT bestselling authors who can't string together a coherent sentence, and they're offering editing services. Again, no. So my point was that if the OP isn't willing to divulge her identity, the bestseller tags & claims of 7 million sales mean absolutely squat to me.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

And talking of new authors getting ripped off for thousands of dollars, there is a lot to be said for having not one red cent to get ripped off for! When I started, I might have been willing to scrape together a few hundred pounds for a service, but I didn't have it so I saved myself.


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## LyraParish (Aug 27, 2013)

Maybe it's not about making money but more about helping people because she/he is bored. I'd be interested in hearing more and actually seeing who the person is. Many people have classes, that are making 7 figures a year and charge less than $1000. They have groups where people are being mentored and recorded videos so it's not a huge time investment for them every single day. It's not unreasonable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LyraParish said:


> Maybe it's not about making money but more about helping people because she/he is bored. I'd be interested in hearing more and actually seeing who the person is. Many people have classes, that are making 7 figures a year and charge less than $1000. They have groups where people are being mentored and recorded videos so it's not a huge time investment for them every single day. It's not unreasonable.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, but it's unreasonable, unless the author is heavily subsidizing it. A group class where each person is paying $1,000 (and that presumably lasts much less than a year) is a whole lot different from 52 sessions of personal mentoring. The author would also have to read and analyze each person's book every week. Huge time investment. Add the covers and the editing in (either one of which would break that bank also) and you have something that doesn't add up. Either the author is mistaken (which I find hard to believe at that level of success), subsidizing this, or there's something not-right.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Now I know how to make everyone's head spin around here. This thread is 5 days old with 4 pages of comments, and the OP has never responded.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> Now I know how to make everyone's head spin around here. This thread is 5 days old with 4 pages of comments, and the OP has never responded.


It's unlikely the OP even existed in the first place, if by "existed" you mean a writer who had sold 7M books and was offering this particular basket of services. Look at the list of KB writers, and there's only one writer who even claims to have sold that many books, and that's HM Ward at 10M. Pretty sure this ain't HM Ward, and so who does that leave?

There might be another 7M sales indie or two out there, but Occam's Razor says that the OP is an invention, not a real superstar offering dirt cheap services.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

To everyone who is interested in this concept of being mentored / coached / assisted by a multi-NYT and USAT 7M book selling author, some things to keep in mind:

PROOF OF CONCEPT: You need to evaluate whether this person can deliver the goods and whether the price is worth it.

You need two big things before ever getting involved in something like this:

1) IDENTITY: You need this person's pen name so you can vet them. Did they hit the NYT list multiple times like they claim? That can all be checked. With what kind of book? A boxed set of 30 books? Or with a single book(s) or series? While both are legitimate claims to the title of NYTs / USAT author, keep in mind that the NYTs has changed its policy to not include these multi-author boxed sets in the lists. Did the author actually sell 7M books? Under their own name? If you can verify that in fact, the author has sold 7M ebooks in 2 years and has hit the USAT and NYTs dozens of times, great! The author knows how to write and sell books.

ETA: apparently, I was wrong about multi-author collections not being eligible for NYTs. I thought I read it, but can't find the original source so I take this off the board unless someone else can prove me right / wrong.

HOWEVER, once you have established that, I can't emphasize how important it is to check this second bit:

2) EXPERIENCE AS A MENTOR: Has this author helped others achieve success? It's one thing to be able to write and sell ebooks, but can the author translate that knowledge and experience into advice that works and helps their mentee / coachee authors improve their game?

Doing something and teaching it to others are two different skill sets. A person can be a GREAT author/publisher but a LOUSY teacher/coach. If the author has never mentored someone before, they have no track record AS A COACH / MENTOR and this is what you would be paying them to do -- coach / mentor you.

To the OP, if you have never coached / mentored anyone before and seen success, and if you don't have any testimonials, then offer to do so for free and actually test out your concept. If you are able to help authors improve their game and move to the next level, collect your testimonials and THEN offer your services for a price. This is what most successful and legitimate coaches / mentors do.

CAVEAT EMPTOR: may the buyer beware.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MonkishScribe said:


> It's unlikely the OP even existed in the first place, if by "existed" you mean a writer who had sold 7M books and was offering this particular basket of services. Look at the list of KB writers, and there's only one writer who even claims to have sold that many books, and that's HM Ward at 10M. Pretty sure this ain't HM Ward, and so who does that leave?
> 
> There might be another 7M sales indie or two out there, but Occam's Razor says that the OP is an invention, not a real superstar offering dirt cheap services.


It's of course hard to verify anyone's sales claims, but as Betsy said upthread, the RomanceAuthor12 account "has a valid email address and a web presence separate from his or her posts here."


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

The real secret to be learned here is how someone who's allegedly selling this well and hitting all these lists has time for anything like this. I have two assistants and I still can't get everything done.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> It's of course hard to verify anyone's sales claims, but as Betsy said upthread, the RomanceAuthor12 account "has a valid email address and a web presence separate from his or her posts here."


Okay, but 7M is_ a lot_. We're talking a handful, at best, of indies who have sold at that level. That one of that handful of people would be offering such underpriced services seems less likely than someone anonymously claiming to have reached that level of sales. That the person has not returned even once to clarify or correct makes me even more likely to think it isn't a real offer from a real 7M selling author.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

MonkishScribe said:


> That the person has not returned even once to clarify or correct makes me even more likely to think it isn't a real offer from a real 7M selling author.


Well, they've returned multiple times, so they're keeping up with this thread. Just not responding to it. In fact, they pinged in just over an hour ago from the time I'm writing this. Without more to go on, as others have said, _caveat emptor._

Last Active:
Today at 10:13:51 AM


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

I humbly propose we burn this thread to the ground and forget it ever existed.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

So, here's a question for the mods:

When does fishing for customers become hooking them? There's discussion here about potential clients already for a business that supposedly doesn't exist yet. However, the potential is there for the OP to already be taking names of potential clients, either through direct PM contact or through simply jotting down the names of those who've expressed positive interest in order to PM them later. At these prices, it's not like they need a looong list of clients to get started.

When does something like this venture go from idea to reality and require more from the OP? When they open an official thread and begin to officially solicit customers? Or when they begin building a roster of potential clients ("so I'm anxious to see what the level of interest is.")? 

Yes, it's a very nuanced difference, but I'm genuinely interested in how that's vetted.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

PhoenixS said:


> So, here's a question for the mods:
> 
> When does fishing for customers become hooking them? There's discussion here about potential clients already for a business that supposedly doesn't exist yet. However, the potential is there for the OP to already be taking names of potential clients, either through direct PM contact or through simply jotting down the names of those who've expressed positive interest in order to PM them later. At these prices, it's not like they need a looong list of clients to get started.
> 
> ...


We are currently discussing this issue, Phoenix. We neither want to presume guilt/destroy anonymity nor make it easier for members to be taken advantage of. Problem is, it's nearly impossible to satisfy those two impulses completely at the same time. KB is not alone in facing such dilemmas: the freer a particular environment is, the more risk is present there, and the more you try to protect people from risk, the more limits you put on what everyone is able to do. It's an ages-old conundrum, and there may not be a perfect solution. The "vetting" long-time, well reputed members of the community are doing in this thread may be the best approach. It ensures that, at the very least, members who choose to take a risk (by, say, contacting an anonymous member via PM and potentially handing over $$$) know they are taking one. But as I said, we're continuing to talk about it. It's an issue that transcends this one thread.


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## raminar_dixon (Aug 26, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> We are currently discussing this issue, Phoenix. We neither want to presume guilt/destroy anonymity nor make it easier for members to be taken advantage of. Problem is, it's nearly impossible to satisfy those two impulses completely at the same time. KB is not alone in facing such dilemmas: the freer a particular environment is, the more risk is present there, and the more you try to protect people from risk, the more limits you put on what everyone is able to do. It's an ages-old conundrum, and there may not be a perfect solution. The "vetting" long-time, well reputed members of the community are doing in this thread may be the best approach. It ensures that, at the very least, members who choose to take a risk (by, say, contacting an anonymous member via PM and potentially handing over $$$) know they are taking one. But as I said, we're continuing to talk about it. It's an issue that transcends this one thread.


We often ran into the same kind of issue at DD, Becca. The mods wanted to protect the members (especially the newbies) from con artists and the like, but none of us wanted to do so if it meant squashing the ability of other, honest members from posting their services.

The solution for us was to add a "Resources" section to the forum, and require any member offering a service or product in exchange for money to have it listed there. Services can be anonymously be critiqued by customers (although mods can still see who posts the reviews), both with a star rating and a text review. Unscrupulous services don't last long. Upstanding services rise to the top of the list.

Perhaps something like this would work for Kboards, or perhaps not. The public nature of Kboards might make such a rule increase the mod duties here too much. Just something to think about.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Been watching this thread and I have to count myself among the skeptical.  Ignoring whether this thread has gone off the rails or been mean, there have been some legitimate questions asked. The fact that the OP hasn't stopped by to at least pick and choose a few to address doesn't really strike me as promising.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I want to thank everyone for their comments and interest in making sure we handle these kinds of threads in the best way possible to serve our membership. Great thoughts. As Becca said, we are discussing in the smoke-filled admin caves *cough*.



MonkishScribe said:


> Okay, but 7M is_ a lot_. We're talking a handful, at best, of indies who have sold at that level. That one of that handful of people would be offering such underpriced services seems less likely than someone anonymously claiming to have reached that level of sales. That the person has not returned even once to clarify or correct makes me even more likely to think it isn't a real offer from a real 7M selling author.


I will say that, based on the information we have through the member's forum registration, the member's claims about being on various bestseller lists are true, if the member is indeed who he or she claims to be. I can't speak to how that equates to number of sales.



PhoenixS said:


> However, the potential is there for the OP to already be taking names of potential clients, either through direct PM contact or through simply jotting down the names of those who've expressed positive interest in order to PM them later.


That is true whether a thread has been started, or not. We have many members who post questions asking about editing, covers, marketing, mailing lists, audio books. It wouldn't take much to come up with a list of potential customers. And, in fact, we have people who have done that. Though cold contact of people using our PM system is not allowed, it hasn't stopped people from doing it, at least for awhile. *NOTE: If someone contacts (generic) you for promotional purposes through our PM system, and you have not requested the contact, please use the "Report to admin" link on the PM to report it to us so we can explain our rules to the miscreant.*

Phoenix is right, there are a LOT of nuances to this issue, and we are discussing them. We've had people who posted under their real names and who have had substantial activity on KBoards who have also had problems with the vendor services they've offered. Someone could put an offer in their signature and never start a single thread and be contacted by people based on their signature.

I tend to agree with Becca that the discussion, healthy skepticism and genuine interest in helping fellow authors evidenced by members in threads like these is the best protection our members and readers have. We could block this kind of post and discussion--but the same offer may be made in multiple forums. Having an open discussion here is a good thing, I think. We will never have a risk-free environment here, but we can, through these kinds of discussions, continue to educate people on the things they should look for and consider when purchasing vendor services.

Thanks, *raminar_dixon*--having a separate area for vendor requests is definitely something that we've been discussing for awhile now. I'm curious, in the case of this thread, would you have required it be in your resource section? There's no actual business that's been offered...

I appreciate the good, thoughtful discussion. I would hope the OP would join in to answer some of the questions. I agree that members can and should take into account the lack of response from the OP when considering whether to express an interest or not in this idea.

Betsy


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## Deuces Deleted (Dec 21, 2015)

I have lurked and wondered where i fit in on kboard since joining in 2015. I posted a question for feedback because I am excited and nervous about doing a service others asked for and wanted the opinions of authors who didn't ask for the service. Never crossed my mind to be anonymous or do anything that would be misconstrued as shady I also haven't taken the lack of response to my post asking for feedback as a personal affront. Whether it is a person's nature to be blunt or what has been termed keyboard courage... The truth is most reputable business people don't conceal their identity. Nothing about this post appealed to me and even if I didn't like the response to my post asking for feedback I would respond to people who took the time to do so. I still don't know if I fit in around here but it is one of my fave writing spots and where I come to check out claims people make on others writing spots I use for research around the web because no matter what I do know people on kboards who are long termers are pretty straightforward. Even if I don't agree with the stance they do or don't take I appreciate the straightforward nature of the responses. This may also be due to my being a blunt and analytical person by nature. For those new to this easily offended ... Prepare to be upset cause negative book reviews are way worse than anything I have read here about a random person's post and about something more important... Your book. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey, Shawneda, girly geeks are welcome here!


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## raminar_dixon (Aug 26, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Thanks, *raminar_dixon*--having a separate area for vendor requests is definitely something that we've been discussing for awhile now. I'm curious, in the case of this thread, would you have required it be in your resource section? There's no actual business that's been offered...


It would *not* be required to be in the Resources section until they began actually selling their services/product. Ideas and services are community-brainstormed all the time at DD and we don't seek to limit that type of creativity in any way.

Our members would definitely poke fiery holes in OP's service just as the kboardians here already have done. The mod team would seek out as much info as possible to certify the OP wasn't actively conning people (which is sounds like you guys were working on). And if we were informed by any member that they were not just brainstorming but actually operating as a service which hadn't set up a Resource where they could be fairly evaluated after all, and our evidence showed that report to be true, then the hammer would fall.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Even if the OP is 100% genuine and above-board (I'm making no assumptions either way), starting a thread and then never coming back to engage with the many responses does seem to speak to her general responsiveness. Even though we're not talking about direct contact like an email, not having come back to respond to anything anyone's said by now makes her look a bit non-responsive. And non-responsive is definitely not a quality most people look for in someone they're hiring for the type of services she's talking about providing. (Naturally, there could be mitigating circumstances, but that doesn't really change the fact of what her non-responsiveness is telling us right now.) It might be that she's just too busy to be responsive to the degree that customers expect, in which case that might be cause to reconsider this business angle.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2017)

Shawna Canon said:


> Even though we're not talking about direct contact like an email, not having come back to respond to anything anyone's said by now makes her look a bit non-responsive.


I am a long time lurker but new poster. I pm'd the author offering this service because I think it sounds like an awesome opportunity for a newer writer like me. I could spend thousands of dollars on other courses and not receive this level of detailed direction and support. Everybody has the right to spend their money where they think it will recoup the best return for them.

However, while I have pm'd her a couple of times I have not received any response


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

raminar_dixon said:


> It would *not* be required to be in the Resources section until they began actually selling their services/product. Ideas and services are community-brainstormed all the time at DD and we don't seek to limit that type of creativity in any way.
> 
> Our members would definitely poke fiery holes in OP's service just as the kboardians here already have done. The mod team would seek out as much info as possible to certify the OP wasn't actively conning people (which is sounds like you guys were working on). And if we were informed by any member that they were not just brainstorming but actually operating as a service which hadn't set up a Resource where they could be fairly evaluated after all, and our evidence showed that report to be true, then the hammer would fall.


So to piece out in a hypothetical situation:

People with a business must post in the resources section if the business is operational. Just an idea, no.

If people are being solicited through PM or doing business through PM without the thread in Resources and it is reported so mods can see it, then action is taken.

I think that system works for DD and I'm a member there because there is that added deterrent of a pay wall, someone has to cough up payment information. And I know too DD limits PM access until someone has been a member for a set period of time, which also prevents someone from joining the forum, posting a post like the OP and handling business through PM... though people PMing them would circumvent that... but again they PM'd the person to do business so it is on them.

 The longer I'm in business for myself the more and more I realize just about the only safeguard you have in anything is whether or not you are willing to foot the bill to sue someone for their misdeeds. Other than that, all you can do is walk away. Because there really aren't much in the way of consumer protection in the B2B world (business to business) not even if someone is an LLC etc. There's a whole lot of protection it seems for someone of any business size to go "well that didn't work out, sorry about your money" close shop and open a new one under a new name. They talk about how entrepreneurs often fail many times before they are profitable, and now it's just eye-opening having been on the receiving end of that "well that didn't work out, sorry about your money" about how many people lose cash from the crashes.

It's so easy to get blinded by the hope that something will take off vs. accurately assess the risk . . . think about a roulette table. Everyone watches to see who wins and moves to look at the reaction of the winner... they don't see the massive amounts of money raked off the table by the house.

EDIT TO ADD: I like the way DirtyDiscourse has their policy.... I'm not sure the same policy would work here because it's public.


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## Deuces Deleted (Dec 21, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hey, Shawneda, girly geeks are welcome here!


Thank you! I've been writing for literally 11 years and after trying the whole in person critique thing, Facebook paid and free author groups .... I always find my way back here. My girl geek popped up last year and I launched an app for readers and asked for feedback from people aren't my friends for feedback but I posted not anonymously. I just figured people were checking it out and didn't take the lack of responses seriously. My favorite thing about being here is the focus we are all taking different approaches and we're all determined to make it stick. Thank you for making me feel welcome.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Some very interesting ideas, here. Thank you, EAW and raminar_dixon! And thank you very much, Z_romantic, for posting about your PM experience -- a very generous act of sharing, on your part.



Shawna Canon said:


> Even if the OP is 100% genuine and above-board (I'm making no assumptions either way), starting a thread and then never coming back to engage with the many responses does seem to speak to her general responsiveness. Even though we're not talking about direct contact like an email, not having come back to respond to anything anyone's said by now makes her look a bit non-responsive. And non-responsive is definitely not a quality most people look for in someone they're hiring for the type of services she's talking about providing. (Naturally, there could be mitigating circumstances, but that doesn't really change the fact of what her non-responsiveness is telling us right now.) It might be that she's just too busy to be responsive to the degree that customers expect, in which case that might be cause to reconsider this business angle.


Good point about responsiveness. Of course, if RomanceAuthor12 intended this venture as a way of helping, at a loss, a few serious but less experienced authors, they may be so horrified at the way the thread has gone that they have no idea what to say or do and are just watching it unfold like a car crash. We really have no way of knowing.


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## BlouBryant (Jun 18, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Good point about responsiveness. Of course, if RomanceAuthor12 intended this venture as a way of helping, at a loss, a few serious but less experienced authors, they may be so horrified at the way the thread has gone that they have no idea what to say or do and are just watching it unfold like a car crash. We really have no way of knowing.


Or she meant what she said - she was looking for feedback, doesn't want to share her name now, and was gauging interest. She's got that and doesn't need to reply and convince the doubters. People are interested, that's clear.

BB


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

BlouBryant said:


> Or she meant what she said - she was looking for feedback, doesn't want to share her name now, and was gauging interest. She's got that and doesn't need to reply and convince the doubters. People are interested, that's clear.
> 
> BB


That's exactly what I was thinking.

The initial post was a test balloon. It wasn't intended to encourage dialogue with the OP.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Some very interesting ideas, here. Thank you, EAW and raminar_dixon! And thank you very much, Z_romantic, for posting about your PM experience -- a very generous act of sharing, on your part.
> 
> Good point about responsiveness. Of course, if RomanceAuthor12 intended this venture as a way of helping, at a loss, a few serious but less experienced authors, they may be so horrified at the way the thread has gone that they have no idea what to say or do and are just watching it unfold like a car crash. We really have no way of knowing.


Quite possible. It's always hard to know how to respond to these types of posts when you're in business (or want to be). You want to remain professional, but often you also just want to be another person discussing things. Saying nothing at all is usually the best way to avoid a confrontation you neither intended nor wanted since they don't usually go well. I don't necessarily think she's trying to cheat anyone. We don't really have enough information for that kind of judgement.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

As a new(ish) member of this community, I'll just say that I think the posting/vetting system here is working as it should. I'm happy to see a lot of experienced authors asking genuine/pertinent questions about the proposed "offer" and in the absence of any response from the OP, expressing their concerns.

To me, this kind of self-policing is the best way to allow newer authors (myself included) to see issues we might not have thought of, or have known to ask. Responses have highlighted the potential benefits of an offer like this (if the OP is genuine and the credentials are proven), and have also called out the risks and things to consider before handing $$$ over to anyone. After that, it really is caveat emptor...as it is in every other corner of society.



Becca Mills said:


> Of course, if RomanceAuthor12 intended this venture as a way of helping, at a loss, a few serious but less experienced authors, they may be so horrified at the way the thread has gone that they have no idea what to say or do and are just watching it unfold like a car crash. We really have no way of knowing.


You're right. Since he/she hasn't been back to the thread, we're all speculating about the reasons why. I will say that I've seen plenty of other threads with someone floating a potential idea, either for early feedback or as the start of business. Many of those posters have faced questions as tough or much tougher than this OP and the thing I've noticed is that if they're genuine and believe in what they're offering, they step up and respond directly to the questions, regardless of the skepticism.

IMO, if the OP is not willing/able to answer even the most valid of questions raised, then he/she might not be the best candidate to offer coaching services. There's nothing tougher than having to speak the truth to a new author about their "baby"... answering questions about editing, cover design costs and mentoring time should be a relative walk in the park compared to the actual mentoring.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

RomanceAuthor12 said:


> I'd prefer not to identify myself *yet *but I have a couple of questions I'm hoping you can all weigh in on.


Seemed the OP might've been planning to reveal herself/himself at the right time. Probably after seeing how their idea was received.



RomanceAuthor12 said:


> Top Tier - $1299.00 for the year
> -Weekly one-on-one time with me (via phone or facetime).
> - Six spots in my mailing list blast. (80,000 very engaged, very enthusiastic romance readers.)
> - Five covers designed and delivered per year.
> ...


Looking at their pricing, it's high enough that he/she would receive a limited amount of takers, mainly those who have, or are willing to spend, the money to receive this type of mentoring/services. That will probably make this doable for her/him to handle the schedule.

Also, he/she says 'weekly' one-on-one time, which doesn't mean seven days a week. It could be one day and maybe only one or two hours at most. This is probably why they wanted feedback to make sure they, too, hadn't missed something that may be misconstrued.

[To the OP, you might want to be more clear as to exactly how much time you will spend with each person. Like a psychiatrist, you can't have your students taking more than the session you have allotted, lol]

Only the first tier is where the OP will put out most of their own time/effort, and at that price, although a deal/steal for what they're offering should all their claims check out, as I mentioned, it will limit the takers who can afford or are willing to spend that.

Many don't/can't even spend $50 on promos, so there aren't many who will be able to take advantage of this offer. I wonder how many have been able to afford (or willing to spend on) Mark Dawson's course even though he is a well-established, reputable member on this forum with great success.

The other tiers and the services (aside from the once/twice a month support with plotting, unless that, too, won't be by the OP since they didn't actually mention it would be. Help with plotting could be by other professionals they have in their arsenal, like her/his editors or other capable persons with the credentials) are being done by others (designers, editors, and probably a VA for scheduling, mailing list spots, etc.)

Who knows, maybe the OP is even trying to help her designers/editors/other resources with getting steady work too. A win-win type thing for everyone? That's magnanimous.

With a mailing list of 80,000 very engaged, very enthusiastic romance readers, that in itself would propel a student of the OP to a very nice ranking. If you are familiar with Michael Anderle, you'd know that if he were to promote you/your book, you'd probably propel pretty fast too with his loyal following of readers giving you a chance.

Anyway, after what the mods have noted about confirming the OP's email address and their website, they may indeed be the real thing. The mods would've spotted something fishy as they seem to be pretty good sleuths, lol.

But even so, like any investment we'd want to endeavor in, we'd want to do our due diligence to make sure that things check out. So at some point, the OP would have to make known to those interested, their identity. I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to do so without that requirement.

And like any investment deal, nothing's a guarantee. You make that decision to take that risk or not. Sometimes they reap you rewards and other times they don't. And not always are they scams just because you don't make money. Sometimes it depends on your efforts to make it work too.

Whether the OP can handle the scheduling of her/his part in the project, to be where they are in their career should they be who they say they are, they probably have some keen business sense (and even common sense) and wouldn't take on more than they could chew. If they value their reputation (which most of us do, right?) they wouldn't want to risk getting disgruntled students who didn't get the product they ordered.

And if they hadn't considered that; that's why these discussions and the need for feedback was valuable.

I feel the OP has made a heartfelt and generous gesture.

I hope they will come back and further this discussion on what they intend. I don't currently write romance but hopefully those that do will benefit from the OP.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

Betsy, I found what you said very interesting:

“I will say that, based on the information we have through the member's forum registration, the member's claims about being on various bestseller lists are true, if the member is indeed who he or she claims to be.  I can't speak to how that equates to number of sales.”

oddly, everyone seems to have just skirted that and no one has even commented on it.

Based on what Betsy said, I now suspect the OP did indeed make those lists, but the sales may have dried up. In Annie Jocoby’s recent thread, various members thanked her for her honesty and confessed they were facing a similar problem. Their sales and royalties weren’t what they used to be. One said that many more authors were admitting to this in more private forums.

Betsy seems to know the OP’s real identity and she confirms the member claiming that identity  has indeed made various bestseller lists. Whether those lists were made with individual titles or box sets has not been clarified, but as someone above said, even making the lists with box sets isnt exactly a zero achievement.

I could be totally wrong but since we’re all just speculating in this thread anyway, my hunch now is that this member has seen past success that may have dried up. Maybe she’s even burnt out as a writer and would like to focus, for a while at least, on helping others instead and making some money at it. Not everyone is a writing machine and can pop out book after book. Maybe she’s hit a dry spell, writer’s block, doesn't have more stories to tell right now, whatever. 

There are quite a few writers who also work as writing coaches and give ongoing feedback via phone consultations. Yes, I assume they do it because they arent earning enough as writers to pay the bills.

Sela gave some good advice:

“To the OP, if you have never coached / mentored anyone before and seen success, and if you don't have any testimonials, then offer to do so for free and actually test out your concept. If you are able to help authors improve their game and move to the next level, collect your testimonials and THEN offer your services for a price. This is what most successful and legitimate coaches / mentors do.”

OP, if you’re willing to do this, I’ll volunteer to be your guinea pig for the coaching. I would then post feedback on this forum, in this thread if you want, to tell how useful I found it. Many people here offer to edit for free to gather testimonials before they start charging.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Genuine question: can anyone think of a scenario like this where it hasn't ended up as something shady?

There are plenty of valid times to want or need anonymity. Providing services to authors is not one of them - especially not when those services are resting on claims (sales levels, bestseller status, experience) that could and should be verified.

I'm uber-skeptical. Why would a 7m-selling author want to do this? How is their time worth so little if their books are selling so much? How can all the services be provided for this price? Why is the author "gauging interest" when it's obvious to anyone that if this is legit, the author would have all the business they could possibly satisfy?

Red flags all the way down. 

Happy to be proved wrong. VERY happy to be proved wrong, in fact. But I can't think of one case like this where it has ended well. Genuine providers don't operate in the dark - they don't operate like this at all.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

dgaughran said:


> There are plenty of valid times to want or need anonymity. Providing services to authors is not one of them - especially not when those services are resting on claims (sales levels, bestseller status, experience) that could and should be verified.


The OP is not providing a service under anonymity. The OP is gauging interest in a potential service.

As wheart said above, the OP would presumably reveal her identity if she moved forward with the service. I doubt she expects people to purchase it via the darknet. lol


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Well-fed dogs don't do tricks for scraps. If the OP had the brand name she claims (assuming she here because it's romance), she wouldn't be doing fee for service, she'd be offering royalty sharing to interested co-authors, like Patterson and the other biggies. In other words, the opportunity cost makes no sense: No one who can make big money with small, low-risk investments in a proven property turns around and works as low-wage contract labour.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Well-fed dogs don't do tricks for scraps. If the OP had the brand name she claims (assuming she here because it's romance), she wouldn't be doing fee for service, she'd be offering royalty sharing to interested co-authors, like Patterson and the other biggies. In other words, the opportunity cost makes no sense: No one who can make big money with small, low-risk investments in a proven property turns around and works as low-wage contract labour.


In all fairness, it's not always about making money. This could simply be a way of giving back, completely as a loss leader. As for why charge at all, that could be a way to keep from being dog-piled by requests. i.e. only people who are serious and willing to invest in themselves need apply.

Just playing Devil's Advocate.

Personally, though, I'm still skeptical since the OP could easily clear a lot of this speculation up with a couple of replies.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> The OP is not providing a service under anonymity. The OP is gauging interest in a potential service.
> 
> As wheart said above, the OP would presumably reveal her identity if she moved forward with the service. I doubt she expects people to purchase it via the darknet. lol


Well, that's an assumption.

Hypothetically speaking, someone could post anonymously about a potential service, then PM anyone who expressed an interest, and continue their dealings outside of KBoards.

It has happened before.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

dgaughran said:


> Well, that's an assumption.
> 
> Hypothetically speaking, someone could post anonymously about a potential service, then PM anyone who expressed an interest, and continue their dealings outside of KBoards.
> 
> It has happened before.


Of course.

But to my knowledge, that hasn't happened here. If it does, then tar and feathering is in order. If it hasn't, then in my book, the OP is innocent until proven guilty.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> The OP is not providing a service under anonymity. The OP is gauging interest in a potential service.


_Allegedly_ gauging interest in a potential service.
I love the part where they tried to use their alleged identity to promote the service they are only gauging interest in, while not revealing said identity.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

crow.bar.beer said:


> _Allegedly_...


... said every defense attorney... ever. 

What can I say? I have a soft spot for defendants trussed up on dubious charges.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> In all fairness, it's not always about making money. This could simply be a way of giving back, completely as a loss leader. As for why charge at all, that could be a way to keep from being dog-piled by requests. i.e. only people who are serious and willing to invest in themselves need apply.
> 
> Just playing Devil's Advocate.
> 
> Personally, though, I'm still skeptical since the OP could easily clear a lot of this speculation up with a couple of replies.


The motive doesn't change the conclusion. Why give back with a lot of work and a low chance of success for the recipients of your charity when you can give back with little work and a high chance of success for the recipients of your charity? If Bill Gates wants to help tech start-ups, does he put links to their products on every pre-installed Windows OS or does he offer to edit their code for a small fee?


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> ... said every defense attorney... ever.


Here's my credentials: twenty-seven convictions, a Supreme Court case, $10,000,000, and made partner to boot.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> in my book, the OP is innocent until proven guilty.


I second that


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

crow.bar.beer said:


> Here's my credentials: twenty-seven convictions, a Supreme Court case, $10,000,000, and made partner to boot.


You were convicted twenty-seven times and _still_ made partner?!

Just kidding.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

My guess--that's all it can be; I have no facts--is that the OP is on the level. S/he queried the members to gauge the feasibility and acceptability of an idea. If the gauge goes in the red, s/he does not want his/her name associated with a bad idea, thus the anonymity. I further guess that s/he is ingenuous about what those services really cost and how much time they would take, or s/he tossed out some lowball numbers to encourage interest. Remember, a significant percentage of the membership comprises writers who don't pay for editing, buy el cheapo--er, inexpensive--cover art, and go for freebie formatting. Maybe that's the targeted audience.

Or it could be bait and switch. But I doubt it.

Why did s/he not return? I wouldn't. Given the nature of some of the responses, I can only imagine what it would be like on that other forum, the one that shall not be named.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Al Stevens said:


> Why did s/he not return? I wouldn't. Given the nature of some of the responses...


But they have returned, often multiple times a day. The fact they are checking in often implies they are either reading this thread and doing nothing and/or responding via pm to those interested in pursuing this offer.


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## madisyn (May 22, 2016)

Longtime lurker - first time poster!    Based on the stats, there is one author who comes to mind who this could be - heart of gold, altruistic (I'm not joking about that), open to mentoring others, generous, and willing to share knowledge.  I have had the benefit of this person's advice in the past (if it's who I think it is) so...I would say - yes, if this person actually is who she says she is - then obviously, there would be people clamoring for the mentee spot.  I would be one of them!  You really couldn't get me to sign up fast enough...personally speaking.

If this is not a legit person - then shame on you!  But I think it really might be the real deal... (call me naive aka an optimist).

-M

Edited to add: I do think the prices are very very low for this service - but perhaps the author wants to give back  I don't know.  It does seem super low for the amount of work involved for the mentoring author.  Extremely generous...


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

Madisyn, I now have a sinking feeling the OP was legit and we frightened her off.


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## Deuces Deleted (Dec 21, 2015)

Consider analytics for your book ads or your website view statistics and consider the massive number of hits versus the miniscule number of comments or engagement or sales conversions. As someone whose had an actual login name since 2012 I could've found the statement about first time posters offensive. I actually found it kinda funny. After receiving the feedback from the authors on the thread about my course and talking to non author friends I've already been able to make decisions about my course that I wouldn't have arrived at without the feedback from the authors on Kboards. But that's me. Just wanted to give a long time lurkers talking now but probably about to be quiet and lurking again when CampNano kicks off and Spring Break for my courses is over's take... some people aren't doing anything suspicious ... they just finally decided to start posting for reasons that have nothing to do with anyone other than what was going on in their lives.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

I have floated quite a few ideas here over the years. Some have come to fruition. Others haven't. Some worked. Some didn't. But I have always done so openly, because there is absolutely NO WAY to judge the full merits of a plan without knowing the person behind the plan. Because it isn't just about numbers floating in a void, it is about who that person is. Even when I offer advice, I always try to provide context insofar as who I am and what I do so that the advice doesn't exist in a vacuum.

So if someone is even going to just FLOAT a potential business, that person really should let us know who they are so we can give an accurate assessment.

Let's look at the math hypothetically. Let's assume for a moment the OP really has sold 7,000,000 copies. That is an incredible number. But what does it actually means? How was it done?

7,000,000 sales of her own individual books at $2.99 a pop? 
7,000,000 sales of her own books at 99 cents each?
7,000,000 sales of her book as part of various box sets sold at 99 cents each and money split between ten authors?

Those are three very different scenarios. In option one, we have someone who obviously knows how to sell books and make a profit. In option two, we have someone who obviously knows how to move volume, but may not be making as much money depending on her actual production expenses. In option three, we've got someone who is moving volume but is still as dirt poor as I am. 

Without knowing the WHO behind the question, we can't accurately assess the situation.

Transparency is a vital part of business trust. People have legitimate reasons for being anonymous in casual social forums. But anonymity does not breed trust when discussing BUSINESS. And anyone who has spent more than ten minutes on the internet should understand this point.



> Madisyn, I now have a sinking feeling the OP was legit and we frightened her off.


Anyone "frightened off" by the questions in this thread doesn't have a thick enough skin to run the type of business she was suggesting. The suggested business model demands exceptional self-confidence, knowledge, and emotional stability. Being spooked off by a few blunt questions doesn't help her cause. Someone who sold 7,000,000 copies should have the self-confidence to shrug off a few direct questions by simply glancing at her checking account balance. Seriously.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Part of me wants to make an anonymous account and make a thread that says I'm an acquisitions editor from a NY publisher but needs to remain anonymous for obvious reasons and I'm spearheading a new division of our imprint looking for well-written indie titles that are just missing the mark on packaging and need a NY-sized budget for marketing. If anyone is interested in being considered for this imprint, let me know what you think below because my bosses have signed off on letting me do this, I just need to show them the caliber to titles we can expect to be interested.

And then every PM I get begging to be considered I'll write back: IT'S THE INTERNET, I DIDN'T EVEN GIVE YOU MY NAME!

**I didn't even make an offer in this thread and I have had 4 Facebook PMs over this thread and 2 emails (because my profile is public and my email is listed) from people asking about specific scams I've seen over the years and why people need to be cautious. Some will never learn until they lose money, but plenty of us here have lost time, talent, money, and emotional investments from various business ventures because writing and publishing and the dreams of success are so potent. We warn with love, not insult. ***


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Vidya said:


> Madisyn, I now have a sinking feeling the OP was legit and we frightened her off.


I doubt the OP was frightened off.

She's probably thinking "_Hmm. Interesting response. Lesson learned. That was the wrong way to gauge interest for a business idea on KB._"


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> I doubt the OP was frightened off.
> 
> She's probably thinking "_Hmm. Interesting response. Lesson learned. That was the wrong way to gauge interest for a business idea on KB._"


Or she might be doing the sums she should have done to begin with and realising her proposition isn't viable.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> **I didn't even make an offer in this thread and I have had 4 Facebook PMs over this thread and 2 emails (because my profile is public and my email is listed) from people asking about specific scams I've seen over the years and why people need to be cautious. Some will never learn until they lose money, but plenty of us here have lost time, talent, money, and emotional investments from various business ventures because writing and publishing and the dreams of success are so potent. We warn with love, not insult. ***


I could add a service to Fiverr as a professional B.S. Detector. Pay me $5 and send me a copy of the business proposal you received, and I will tell you if it is a scam or not.

I could get rich...rich I say!

Come to think of it, there may be a market for that service...


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## madisyn (May 22, 2016)

Vidya said:


> Madisyn, I now have a sinking feeling the OP was legit and we frightened her off.


I agree - it's one reason I don't post on Kboards (except for this one thread!) I've seen too many innocents thrown to wolves, and it always leaves me with a sinking feeling in my heart. In Facebook author groups, people seem to be a little nicer - maybe because their faces and profiles, friends list, etc. are on display. Even though elite authors are used to criticism and bad reviews...it still stings, especially when you're gauging interest on what would essentially be a mentoring project. I absolutely understand why the OP would not put this in the "services" group - there are no services to offer yet. It's just an idea at its infancy, which may well be quashed now. <3

Edited to add: I also have seen a lot of scams on the internet - and A LOT of people who've been taken advantage of by people offering "author services" that are a money grab with no results. So - I also get the other side of it, and why people are so quick to jump on someone who is vague. There is a lot of desperation in the author world - and everyone is trying to get an edge. It's a hard business, and so I do understand why people are so critical. I really do.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Most of the questioning here came from elite authors. Perhaps the OP was absolutely legit. It certainly could be. In that case, I hope the questions helped her refine her strategy so she isn't stuck in a time sink that will satisfy nobody, and can refine her proposal to something that will benefit her and some newer authors as well. I'd think she would want to choose her mentees carefully, so she gave all that time to those who showed the most promise, but her life, her rules.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> Most of the questioning here came from elite authors. Perhaps the OP was absolutely legit. It certainly could be. In that case, I hope the questions helped her refine her strategy so she isn't stuck in a time sink that will satisfy nobody, and can refine her proposal to something that will benefit her and some newer authors as well. I'd think she would want to choose her mentees carefully, so she gave all that time to those who showed the most promise, but her life, her rules.


Yeah. It just didn't add up. You and I both know how much quality editing costs. That was the big sticking point. The rest would cost the service provider an enormous amount of time per client. Any best selling author would know this just as well. So that tells me that she has a staff already in place, or is not what she says she is. If she has a staff, they have to get paid. That eats up the money in a hurry. The only way it works is if she's doing all the work herself. One client would be a challenge. But she wanting multiple clients. I don't buy it.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

madisyn said:


> Edited to add: I also have seen a lot of scams on the internet - and A LOT of people who've been taken advantage of by people offering "author services" that are a money grab with no results.


Be careful what you call a scam. If you purchase a service from a vendor and they follow through with everything they promised, they are not a scam, no matter what the results. Zero results doesn't mean they're a scam. I'm talking as long as they didn't 'guarantee' results (but even then, they might not be a scam but just not well thought out to make such guarantees). Anyone who guarantees results are asking for disgruntled customers. There are vendors who guarantee 'x' amount of results and then refund/credit the difference of the missed marked, so I don't consider those to be scams either. They gave us that info all upfront. We knew the score.

If we buy a vendor's service and they provide everything they said they would (displaying/promoting on social media/website, sending out to mailing list, etc.) then they've done their part. If we get ZERO sales or not the amount we had hoped, does it mean they scammed us? I would hope your answer is no. To me it would mean that my book just didn't appeal to their followers/mailing list.

And if I didn't do my due diligence to ask the vendor how many members/readers they had in my genre before I bought into their service, then I can't very well blame them for that. It's on me that I didn't do everything necessary to derive at the conclusion that this service might benefit me or not.

Googling the service provider and even with 'kboards' (or any other forum you trust) after the name should turn up sites with members discussing the vendor. If there are some people getting results while other aren't, you have to then weigh if you're willing to take a chance with that vendor for your own book.

Just because someone claims a vendor/service is a scam, doesn't make it so. Use your smarts to decide what is true by the research you do on that vendor.

In this case with this OP who is 'inquiring' if this is a service people would be interested in, until she/he discloses her/his true identity and you can then do your due diligence to research all there is to their claims and if they're legit, nobody who has any degree of common sense would invest their money without knowing this info about them.

Whether the OP is making money on this venture or if doing it as a charitable 'straight from the heart' deed shouldn't matter if they are proven legit. That's their business. Our business (well, not mine since I don't write romance) is to decide (should they be legit) whether or not it's worth the investment.

With any investment, if you are going to hurt badly should you not get a return on your investment, then I say to you ... DO NOT invest.

For those who have the money to spend and who have the mindset that any investment is a risk and should it go well, great, should it go bad, well that's how it goes sometimes, then that's a healthy way to approach investing your money.

Again, we shouldn't invest what we aren't prepared to lose. That's the nature of investing. We would be foolish to do otherwise. And it is nobody's fault but our own.

Because as I said before and it is worth repeating since many people continue to blame the vendor for their lack of results ... just because you don't get results doesn't mean it's a scam. If the vendor lived up to their end and provided you what they promised, then the lack of results is not with them, but with something else.

Are there scams out there? You betcha. Just watch what you deem or accuse of being a scam, is what I'm saying 

*Edited to add: I have done a lot of investing in both my prior business and with stocks, so I do practice what I preach  And if anybody feels that my comments are unworthy of your consideration because I'm anonymous and have very little reputation here, lol, then feel free to skip my posts. I post what I do for those who welcome any viewpoint with equal measure, based on its content.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2017)

wheart said:


> Be careful what you call a scam. If you purchase a service from a vendor and they follow through with everything they promised, they are not a scam, no matter what the results. Zero results doesn't mean they're a scam. I'm talking as long as they didn't 'guarantee' results (but even then, they might not be a scam but just not well thought out to make such guarantees). Anyone who guarantees results are asking for disgruntled customers. There are vendors who guarantee 'x' amount of results and then refund/credit the difference of the missed marked, so I don't consider those to be scams either. They gave us that info all upfront. We knew the score.
> 
> If we buy a vendor's service and they provide everything they said they would (displaying/promoting on social media/website, sending out to mailing list, etc.) then they've done their part. If we get ZERO sales or not the amount we had hoped, does it mean they scammed us? I would hope your answer is no. To me it would mean that my book just didn't appeal to their followers/mailing list.
> 
> ...


It's not what is being offered that seems scammy. In theory, I could absolutely offer something similar. So could Rosalind James, Jana Deleon, Anne Bellet, or any other best selling author. But there is no way under the sun I could do it at that price. At least not in a way that provides professional results. It goes right back to the editing. Good editing is expensive. Very expensive. Even if she did it herself and was qualified to do so, it's time consuming. Combine this with weekly phone conversation, mentoring, and covers, the numbers are ridiculous. I know this, and so would any writer who has been around a little while. A writer fresh off writing their first book might not. 
There is a good chance they've already run into discount editors and cheap cover designers. And they are discovering just how hard it is to get established. They might have even come to Kboards hoping for a glimmer of hope, only to find they most of the writers here are struggling too. And some have been at it a long time. They'd see this offer as the books gods smiling down on them. It's targeting the vulnerable and the hopeful. 
You are right to say no one can guarantee results. But this isn't about results. It's about feasibility. In business, the numbers have to add up. These don't.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> It's not what is being offered that seems scammy. In theory, I could absolutely offer something similar. So could Rosalind James, Jana Deleon, Anne Bellet, or any other best selling author. But there is no way under the sun I could do it at that price. At least not in a way that provides professional results. It goes right back to the editing. Good editing is expensive. Very expensive. Even if she did it herself and was qualified to do so, it's time consuming. Combine this with weekly phone conversation, mentoring, and covers, the numbers are ridiculous. I know this, and so would any writer who has been around a little while. A writer fresh off writing their first book might not.
> There is a good chance they've already run into discount editors and cheap cover designers. And they are discovering just how hard it is to get established. They might have even come to Kboards hoping for a glimmer of hope, only to find they most of the writers here are struggling too. And some have been at it a long time. They'd see this offer as the books gods smiling down on them. It's targeting the vulnerable and the hopeful.
> You are right to say no one can guarantee results. But this isn't about results. It's about feasibility. In business, the numbers have to add up. These don't.


You just have to look at all the threads created here by editors/proofreaders, cover artists/designers and the like to know that there are a LOT of them needing the work. Many charge way under what they're worth because most authors won't hire them if they didn't. And their credentials aren't something to sneeze at. It would probably insult them to say that just because they charge a certain price that seems too low, that they are less than qualified to do a good job.

If the OP has common sense (I won't say business sense, because they are not doing this for money it seems for their part), then they'll be taking on only what they can handle for their part of it. That means, limiting the sessions for Tier #1 to once a week per student, and one to two hours sessions at most, and subbing out the rest.

3 students (1 hour each) x 5 days = 15 students they can handle with that schedule. That's probably more students than they'll probably get, so their hours spent would be even less. And if it's more, then they'll probably cap it off should they not be able to accommodate the number. It's a math calculation they can easily assess depending on how many hours they're willing to spend.

We should ask ourselves ... how many hours on kboards and other social media do we spend? Maybe the OP will be spending the same hours on her mentoring sessions instead (actually, I feel from what I calculated above, they'll be spending even less hours from those who spend more than 3 - 4 hours on social media per day). If most of us added up the hours that we spend socializing on forums/Twitter/Facebook/etc. I'm sure we can agree it adds up. To a LOT of hours. The OP may be just rerouting her time/energy to this venture instead.

If he/she is making enough money from their current book sales, or even if they were savvy and invested some of their proceeds from their over 7mil books sold with safe stocks that paid decent dividends, then they could be making residual income they're living on nicely without having to write much more books of their own.

And someone mentioned that they should be co-authoring and getting something from that instead of doing this for practically free, well maybe that was their intent for later, and would offer it to those students once things got established.

I bring up Michael Anderle again, because he's doing just that (but knowing him, it's probably not to make money off those other writers; he's doing it to help their careers. Having his name as a co-author as well as him promoting them to his fans, Michael will boost their books with a ton of sales). He didn't offer the exact services in the way this OP has brought up (he did take on individually mentoring a few students in the early days), but you can bet he spent/spends a LOT of time/energy continually helping other authors as students out of the goodness of his heart (he doesn't charge anything for it), because he wants others to succeed as he has. And he did/does all this while still writing his own books at the same time.

He's posted on kboards before, but spends most of his time/energy elsewhere. The OP will probably do that as well.

I'm not sure why some of you are finding it so hard to fathom this type of thing working. It's being done already. Most don't post their propositions here. They're doing it in Facebook groups or in their own forums.

Edited to add: I think it's good that the OP posted here first; otherwise, varying POV's wouldn't have been submitted to weight out all the angles. Everyone (pro and con) brought up valid points in this discussion. Not to mention (should this OP be legit), how many (who would be interested) would have known about it had the OP only presented this in their own Facebook group/forum? And now that it's being put through the gauntlet with kboard members, the OP would think twice about not following through with their promises once their identity is known (should this come to fruition).


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

OMG, speaking of how many hours we spend on social media; I have out-spent mine for the week just today alone! Yikes! I gotta get back to my ms, lol


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2017)

wheart said:


> You just have to look at all the threads created here by editors/proofreaders, cover artists/designers and the like to know that there are a LOT of them needing the work. Many charge way under what they're worth because most authors won't hire them if they didn't. And their credentials aren't something to sneeze at. It would probably insult them to say that just because they charge a certain price that seems too low, that they are less than qualified to do a good job.
> 
> If the OP has common sense (I won't say business sense, because they are not doing this for money it seems for their part), then they'll be taking on only what they can handle for their part of it. That means, limiting the sessions for Tier #1 to once a week per student, and one to two hours sessions at most, and subbing out the rest.
> 
> ...


The people I have spoken to about this are professional - this includes editors/proof readers. I haven't sourced cover artists. But I know how much a good cover costs. And not a single one my colleagues, many of which easily match the credentials of the OP, thinks this is anything other than a scam.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> The people I have spoken to about this are professional - this includes editors/proof readers.


The people I was referring to are professionals as well. There have been many professionals on these forums posting threads about editing/book cover designs.



This_Way_Down said:


> And not a single one my colleagues, many of which easily match the credentials of the OP, thinks this is anything other than a scam.


Even if every president/monarch of every nation said that, it wouldn't mean anything because there's no proof backing that allegation. In any case, until the OP reveals their identity, we're all just shooting arrows in the dark, lol


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

For now, it does appear that every thing that could be said has been said. Concerns with the original proposal have been pointed out. In the absence of any response from RomanceAuthor12, we're going to lock this thread.

RomanceAuthor12, if you want to respond to any of the posts here in-thread, please PM me.

Betsy
KB Mod


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