# Nov KU Fund up from $3 mil to $6.5 mil, payout $1.39? Reports are up.



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I always get these things wrong, but it looks to me like the Nov. KU rate is 1.39. Am I right?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

That's what I calculated, too.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Yes.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

Looks like $1.39 to me.


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## VEwoodlake (Jul 11, 2014)

Oh thank God


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Definitely $1.39.

Rue


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks, guys. I'd wished I had been wrong and it was more. Not feeling the love from Ammy these days.


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## o.gasim (Oct 5, 2014)

JeanneM said:


> Thanks, guys. I'd wished I had been wrong and it was more. Not feeling the love from Ammy these days.


Not sure if you missed last month, but this is a .22 cent increase. I'm a big doomsayer myself, but what's not to love in a month over month increase?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

How are we feeling about $1.39? I know $1.33 for the previous month caused a riot here.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I think it is interesting to see that it actually went up.


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## Capella (Jan 16, 2014)

o.gasim said:


> Not sure if you missed last month, but this is a .22 cent increase. I'm a big doomsayer myself, but what's not to love in a month over month increase?


Wait, what are you saying last month's was? It was not $1.17 as far as I'm aware...
I just went and checked. By my (very quick) math, it was $1.33. So this month is up by 6 cents.


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

After months and months of it being over $2 back in the day, I just can't get excited over a $0.06 or $0.22 increase. Still is rotten.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm guessing the guys running the KU pot at Amazon are readers, too:


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

It was $1.33 last month. So, yeah, a 6-cent increase.


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## o.gasim (Oct 5, 2014)

Capella said:


> Wait, what are you saying last month's was? It was not $1.17 as far as I'm aware...
> I just went and checked. By my (very quick) math, it was $1.33. So this month is up by 6 cents.


Oh crap. You all just gave me a big raise for last month too  I seriously thought last month was 1.17.

Either way, an increase is an increase. Also, remember that 2 new territories joined KU this month so there are even more avenues for income.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

KU worked OK for me initially, and I've been all right with the $1.3x payouts, but my borrow/read count has dropped so drastically this month that I'm letting two of my books fall out of the program in a few days, then the rest are free mid-Jan. It was a good experiment, but I'm no longer getting any benefit out of it. Time to go back to wide distribution.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Opposite side of the coin, my sales are booming at both Amazon and smash words with Google play joining the mix. I'd highly encourage people to look into third parties.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm sorry. I don't like being negative about things, I really don't. I try to stay positive but I just can't get all excited over 1.39 when it used to be 2.06. We are not getting an increase...we are still on the decrease. 

I'll stay in for the next 3 months because they are including 6 months of KU free (from what I understand) with the purchase of new kindles. But after that, I'm outta there like a herd of turtles.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Evan R. said:


> I'm guessing the guys running the KU pot at Amazon are readers, too:


Evan, you are so right,

If anybody is thinking of letting this 6 cent increase convince them to stay in KU they need to read the book Evan displayed.


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

JeanneM said:


> I'll stay in for the next 3 months because they are including 6 months of KU free (from what I understand) with the purchase of new kindles. But after that, I'm outta there like a herd of turtles.


Just so you make an informed choice, there were no free subscriptions, merely an offer that equaled out to half off for six months. I don't know how many people added that to their new kindle purchases, but it was not automatic, it had to be added to the cart.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

6 months of free kindles no increase to pot equals a lower payout.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I've pulled in over 6 grand in borrows between Sept-Nov, but I've also seen my borrows cliff, and they're taking sales with them, which is why I've removed 19 of the 22 titles I had in KU and gone wide. My sales elsewhere have more than made up the difference.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Randall Wood said:


> Evan, you are so right,
> 
> If anybody is thinking of letting this 6 cent increase convince them to stay in KU they need to read the book Evan displayed.


I had predicted a small increase (to $1.41) just for this reason. But if this was Amazon's thinking, then they screwed up because $1.40 "looks" a lot bigger than $1.39 and would only have required adding about $47,000 over the $3.5 million they added for November (bringing the pot to $6.5 million). Psychologically, $1.41 looks even bigger than that. My money's on them dropping it quite a bit below $1.30 for this month.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I'm surprised they started it so high an havent locked in a payment rate.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

KU works for me. I've picked up tons of new fans (and yes they told me they found me because of KU). It's obviously not for everyone, but I ended up with $15,000 just in borrows from November. I don't for a second believe that all of those borrows would have been buys. Will I stay in Select forever? Probably not, but I'm riding my success right now. If you don't like the payout, get out. I look at it as increasing my fan base with a monthly cash bonus -- and I'm enjoying the ride. KU is no different than the regular store. You still have to attract people to your work.


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

I'm still happy with it. I will only put my serial titles in there. A borrow at $1.39 is still more than the .35 I would have made selling it. 

But my full length novels won't go in there.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> Evan, you are so right,
> 
> If anybody is thinking of letting this 6 cent increase convince them to stay in KU they need to read the book Evan displayed.


Thanks, but I take no credit for the observation. It seems like basic Gamesmanship / Realpolitik / PsyOps.



Saul Tanpepper said:


> I had predicted a small increase (to $1.41) just for this reason.


I remember that. It was on my mind at the time, too. Good call.



Saul Tanpepper said:


> My money's on them dropping it quite a bit below $1.30 for this month.


Honestly, this KU/KOLL Kremlinology is almost more fun than actually selling shedloads of books.

Let's start a wager, shall we? With real money? I still have some extra kopeks.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

$1.39 is better than the $1.17 I predicted but still not near enough for my full-length books, which will be coming out of KDPS as their terms end. I had a good run of it for the first month in KDPS /KU but it really fell off in Month 2 so that I am at 66% of my previous month's revenues. I have to get through another month and two on some books before I can pull and unless Christmas and New Years sees a lot of borrows, I will be feeling it in my pocketbook and not a happy camper.

I'm glad KU works for some, but not for us all. We have to each make a decision that's best for our own business.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

These KU conspiracy theories are fascinating. 

I'm not saying that it's aliens, but it's aliens.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Half Pint, I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to tell anyone about the aliens. The Evil Zon will be very displeased. Very displeased, indeed.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Half Pint said:


> These KU conspiracy theories are fascinating.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's aliens, but it's aliens.


LOL!!


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Lionel's Mom said:


> Just so you make an informed choice, there were no free subscriptions, merely an offer that equaled out to half off for six months. I don't know how many people added that to their new kindle purchases, but it was not automatic, it had to be added to the cart.


Thank you so much. I knew I'd heard something about it but couldn't remember quite what. My mind is like a steel trap...nothing gets in.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Half Pint said:


> These KU conspiracy theories are fascinating.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's aliens, but it's aliens.


That clicking noise isn't aliens, its authors unclicking the Select box! It's deafening!


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Randall Wood said:


> That clicking noise isn't aliens, its authors unclicking the Select box! It's deafening!


Rofl.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Half Pint, I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to tell anyone about the aliens. The Evil Zon will be very displeased. Very displeased, indeed.


The men in black will be coming after me soon. I'll have to spend all the money I made in KU before they get... here... argh..... Help Me!!!!


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. The rate could go up or it could go down or it could stay exactly the same and the same people would be predicting the same things


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## Pauline Creeden (Aug 4, 2011)

That's not so shabby...still pulling most of my books out to try other platforms


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

YodaRead said:


> KU works for me. I've picked up tons of new fans (and yes they told me they found me because of KU). It's obviously not for everyone, but I ended up with $15,000 just in borrows from November. I don't for a second believe that all of those borrows would have been buys. Will I stay in Select forever? Probably not, but I'm riding my success right now. If you don't like the payout, get out. I look at it as increasing my fan base with a monthly cash bonus -- and I'm enjoying the ride. KU is no different than the regular store. You still have to attract people to your work.


I never on my one month KU trial sourced a book via my Kindle (I was wish-listed mainstream published stuff), but I assume on the Kindle that the KU filter works the same as the KOLL filter. That means that they can only be sorted by popularity, so once you get on top you stay on top. So someone raking it in would be unwise to take those books out. KOLL and presumably KU are based on the principle of favouring the already favoured despite the marketing claims about discoverability. Or they are in terms of those browsing on their Kindle.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I had predicted a small increase (to $1.41) just for this reason. But if this was Amazon's thinking, then they screwed up because $1.40 "looks" a lot bigger than $1.39 and would only have required adding about $47,000 over the $3.5 million they added for November (bringing the pot to $6.5 million). Psychologically, $1.41 looks even bigger than that. My money's on them dropping it quite a bit below $1.30 for this month.


It's a math thing, not a "calculation/psych warfare" on Amazon's part.

Number of actual borrows read in to the payout point, and the total amount in the pot, produces the payout.

If the payout is inching back up, the most likely thing is that the bloom is off the rose and all those authors pulling titles out of the program is making the program less appealing to consumers, so fewer consumers are sticking with KU.

Perhaps the number of borrows per month has reached an apex point, and payouts will inch up slowly as this new program finds its natural average.

I think it's fine to participate or pull books out as each author sees fit for their own path to success. No wrong decisions, just choices.

Speaking as a reader, I have no interest in KU. I prefer to own books, not rent. That just my mileage on the issue. Others will feel differently and that's fine, too.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

They just doubled it. They have to. They know the KU library will probably halve if they don't.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I'm pleased it went up. It means that all the flack for last month has had an affect. It also theoretically slows down the time it takes for the rate to go under a dollar. I thought we'd be under a dollar in January but that looks unlikely now.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Randall Wood said:


> That clicking noise isn't aliens, its authors unclicking the Select box! It's deafening!


LOL! That's fine, y'all can leave Select. More pie for the rest of us.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

they added 3.5 mill and it only went up 4 cents. I'd say it sucks, but since my borrows were near nonexistent before KU I can't complain. I don't believe all those borrows would have been sale, not for me anyway. I can see how it might hurt established big sellers, but at this point any exposure/money helps.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Just got an email!



> Hello,
> 
> We have continued to see strong response from customers to Kindle Unlimited (KU) and are adding a bonus of $3.5 million to the previously announced base fund amount of $3 million, bringing the total fund to $6.5 million for the month of November.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

1.39/borrow. All that matters


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

That's an average of almost 13 borrows per KULL title.  Yet plenty of authors are reporting drops in borrows.  Something tells me that KULL readers are nose-deep in the erotica section.  Especially since Scribd is now allowing erotica into their own borrowing program.

It would be interesting to see what genres of books are hitting the Top 100 pre-KULL vs. post-KULL, if anyone out there has kept statistics on the subject.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

I never get these emails. I wonder why not ...


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

It makes you wonder how many millions Amazon is willing to throw at this program. Paying FOUR times the normal royalty for the borrow of a 99 cent book can't be profitable. And I continue to hear that authors are still seeing sales decrease and so are pulling their books out of Select. I never thought I'd be making more money from Nook than from Amazon, but that's been the case for the past couple of months. Thank heavens for Nook, Kobo, Apple, and the smaller resellers.


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## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

Do you think because so many people have been pulling their books out that Amazon is able to up the funds now?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Two years ago I wrote a 20k romance story and sold 3500 copies on Amazon the first month. This was the first book under this pen, but I had learned how to do the blurb and subject matter in romance.

This year I finally got around to writing another story with this pen, and I put it in KU to see what would happen. Something like 1300 sales 2300 borrows. I did it again the next month. Similar figures. The second month of the first book dropped significantly to something like 100 sales 200 borrows. 

This month, I did it a third time but I wanted to go wide because I'm nervous of putting so much into Amazon. Part of my nervousness is knowing that Amazon froze my friend's account after she had 3 books in KU and owing her something like $7000. This had nothing to do with them being in KU. I actually don't know why her account is frozen. Just makes me antsy.

Anyway, this time with the last book not in KU, the book has sold 113 copies on Amazon. Either I taught readers to expect to get all books under this pen for free in KU, or something. The book is selling just okay on BN, but ok has never been anywhere close to Amazon levels.


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## Capella (Jan 16, 2014)

Mizuki said:


> Two years ago I wrote a 20k romance story and sold 3500 copies on Amazon the first month. This was the first book under this pen, but I had learned how to do the blurb and subject matter in romance.
> 
> This year I finally got around to writing another story with this pen, and I put it in KU to see what would happen. Something like 1300 sales 2300 borrows. I did it again the next month. Similar figures. The second month of the first book dropped significantly to something like 100 sales 200 borrows.
> 
> ...


WOAH WAIT frozen WHAT?!
Can you ask your friend what could have happened? I've never even heard of that, but it sounds terrifying!


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Yeah it seems they're making a serious cost-benefit analysis adjustment. I suspect people pulling out of KU has something to do with it for sure. But as long as it's still 1.39 per borrow, I don't know how it'll affect us. It's probably a move aimed at the large publishing houses, to keep them on board the program, but that's just a guess.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I asked her. She claims they aren't saying why. She says she keeps emailing asking for an update, and they keep saying they are looking into it. She thinks they are dragging their feet until it's time to pay out for this month. Here's what I think and that she won't tell me. She has two accounts, both with her SSN, two different bank accounts. I told her long ago that was probably a no no. So, either she's embarrassed to tell me that's why, or they truly aren't saying what happened. But they didn't freeze the other account, just the one. So I don't get it.

She was in tears because she takes care of her kids, makes more than her husband, and she financially supports her mother. She does this full time.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

6 months of KU and a kindle for $100 just started.    They had to up the pot to keep up with the borrows.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

I think I have to bring Scully in to illustrate my reaction to that email....


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Sever Bronny said:


> Yeah it seems they're making a serious cost-benefit analysis adjustment. I suspect people pulling out of KU has something to do with it for sure. But as long as it's still 1.39 per borrow, I don't know how it'll affect us. It's probably a move aimed at the large publishing houses, to keep them on board the program, but that's just a guess.


Traditionally published books don't come out of the fund. They're paid quite differently.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Marie Long said:


> Do you think because so many people have been pulling their books out that Amazon is able to up the funds now?


They've been adding to the base amount every month since KU started. Last month they only added 2.5 mill to the 3 mill base vs 3.5 mill this month. That has nothing to do with people leaving. If it did, they wouldn't have to put extra in to make the rate go up.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

It's to keep the borrow rate from dropping below a dollar, I think.


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## Marcus Richardson (Aug 15, 2014)

ChristinePope said:


> I think I have to bring Scully in to illustrate my reaction to that email....


Priceless. Love Scully and fits my reaction to a T.


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## Jac1106 (Jan 13, 2012)

Half Pint said:


> These KU conspiracy theories are fascinating.


This is the reason why KDP does not announce the borrow amount ahead of time.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

You couldn't get me back in that quicksand pit even at the point of a gun. KU is for suckers.
KU is there to help Z, not you or me. Basically it. Want to be shackled for the next 90 days? Go right ahead.
Fool's Gold...would be a better name for it.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Do you think because so many people have been pulling their books out that Amazon is able to up the funds now?


The Facebook ads Amazon is using to promote Kindle Unlimited are getting nasty. A lot of *readers* feel ripped off by the program; they are starting to call it "Kindle Limited" in the comment sections because they don't like the selection.

I've been following the ads with interest. In the beginning the comments section was largely positive, but it isn't anymore.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

ShaneJeffery said:


> They've been adding to the base amount every month since KU started. Last month they only added 2.5 mill to the 3 mill base vs 3.5 mill this month. That has nothing to do with people leaving. If it did, they wouldn't have to put extra in to make the rate go up.


The way that people borrow books on a Kindle drives you to those already selling well so it is possible to have large numbers of authors leave and Amazon still have to prime the pumps because most of your borrows are going to a small group of authors. There is not enough data revealed by Amazon to make any reliable guess as to what is happening with KU.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Marie Long said:


> Do you think because so many people have been pulling their books out that Amazon is able to up the funds now?


From everything I hear, writers are flooding Select with small, hastily written stories and non-fiction to take advantage of the program for as long as it lasts. Most of the authors I speak with who have full length novels are either already out, or will be out soon. The breaking point for many seemed to have been established at $1.50, but the unexpected decrease in sales, when added to low payouts for borrows, made it unreasonable for many to remain in. I expect the get-rich-quick scammers will continue to flood the program with drek, forcing Amazon to pump more millions into the fund to keep the program from degrading even further with respect to quality content. If writers were not required to keep their books in for ninety days, the number of books in KU would already be significantly smaller. Amazon is either going to have to change the rules for submissions and payouts, or cancel the program for lack of quality content. I don't think readers will continue to pay $9.99 a month when they have to search through the drek to find a decent short story.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I have more borrows than sales now which is the opposite of what it was. Losing $1 a borrow if you figure it like that.

and there were approximately 5 million borrows in November all averaged down, or up according to your sales price.

Come 1st February  - I'm out of it.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

ChristinePope said:


> I think I have to bring Scully in to illustrate my reaction to that email....


That was _exactly_ what I looked like when I got the email. Only like a dude and stuff.


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## RubyMadden (Jun 11, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> I never get these emails. I wonder why not ...


You can also find 'the announcements' here: https://kdp.amazon.com/community/ann.jspa?annID=670


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> 1.39/borrow. All that matters


This is the correct response.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> 1.39/borrow. All that matters


this, they've added to the fund every month, for the writers it just comes down the bottom line, add 3 mill 9 mill 125 mill, in the end it's what the borrow payout that matters (of course if they were adding 125 mil the payout would be insane)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ShaneJeffery said:


> I'm pleased it went up. It means that all the flack for last month has had an affect. It also theoretically slows down the time it takes for the rate to go under a dollar. I thought we'd be under a dollar in January but that looks unlikely now.


I don't think it indicates anything about the flack.

I think it indicates fewer borrows (slightly, anyway) occurring in November as compared to October, nothing more.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Didn't Amazon say something about adding according to the purchases around the holidays? So they vary what they add based on time of year as well. So it's possible they will increase what they add in January too. I'm not sure it's based on flack either.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Kindle Unlimited Borrows

November: 4,676,258 up 13%
October: 4,135,338 up 24% 
September: 3,311,258 up 27% 
August: 2,600,000


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

The amount they add to the fund means diddly squat. 

6cents increase. It's a joke. On us.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You can only have one Amazon KDP account.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Mizuki said:


> Didn't Amazon say something about adding according to the purchases around the holidays? So they vary what they add based on time of year as well. So it's possible they will increase what they add in January too. I'm not sure it's based on flack either.


They almost always increase the pot. Here is this month's email about it:

We have continued to see strong response from customers to Kindle Unlimited (KU) and are adding a bonus of $3.5 million to the previously announced base fund amount of $3 million, bringing the total fund to $6.5 million for the month of November.

To further highlight the KDP Select books that are most popular with customers, we will again award "KDP Select All-Stars" for November to the most-read authors and titles in the U.S., U.K. and Germany. We'll spotlight each All-Star author and title on applicable detail pages. These awards will come with financial bonuses and recipients will be contacted in the next few days. Anyone with a title in KDP Select-even a debut author with a single title-can qualify if their work becomes a customer favorite. For more information on All-Stars, visit https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2X66QXB12WV2.

We will also pay a separate bonus for Kindle Owners' Lending Library loans in France and Japan.

Best regards,
The Kindle Direct Publishing Team


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

IF the pot was increased by 3.5 million and the cut only went up 6 cents it means there were many many many more borrows.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I don't know. Maybe there's tons of erotica the romance readers are tired of coming across in KU, but there's a lot of mystery in KU I've come across that I can enjoy just fine, and fantasy too.

There's also tons that I'd like to read that I can't that's not in KU. I've stuck to the lower priced, shorter books that interest me more than the long, expensive stuff even if it has wonderful covers.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> IF the pot was increased by 3.5 million and the cut only went up 6 cents it means there were many many many more borrows.


^This^


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## Capella (Jan 16, 2014)

Mizuki said:


> I asked her. She claims they aren't saying why. She says she keeps emailing asking for an update, and they keep saying they are looking into it. She thinks they are dragging their feet until it's time to pay out for this month. Here's what I think and that she won't tell me. She has two accounts, both with her SSN, two different bank accounts. I told her long ago that was probably a no no. So, either she's embarrassed to tell me that's why, or they truly aren't saying what happened. But they didn't freeze the other account, just the one. So I don't get it.
> 
> She was in tears because she takes care of her kids, makes more than her husband, and she financially supports her mother. She does this full time.


That's awful. Does she know how to get them on the phone through author central? I would try that. They can escalate to actual KDP phone support, and at least she could talk to a human rather than waiting on emails.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks, merged two similar topics, sorry for any confusion.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I never on my one month KU trial sourced a book via my Kindle (I was wish-listed mainstream published stuff), but I assume on the Kindle that the KU filter works the same as the KOLL filter. That means that they can only be sorted by popularity, so once you get on top you stay on top. So someone raking it in would be unwise to take those books out. KOLL and presumably KU are based on the principle of favouring the already favoured despite the marketing claims about discoverability. Or they are in terms of those browsing on their Kindle.


My friend just canceled over this. She said she had to drill down several pages to ever find anything new and a lot of the 'popular' works showed up in more or less every genre.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

DaCosta said:


> ^This^


Huh?

Not to be snarky, but I think it means;

Amount we wish to pay - amount we initially placed in the pot = amount we need to add now.

...and nothing more.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Capella said:


> That's awful. Does she know how to get them on the phone through author central? I would try that. They can escalate to actual KDP phone support, and at least she could talk to a human rather than waiting on emails.


Yes, the talked to someone on the phone. I think she used the Call Me feature. They are still delaying, and for some reason she tends to draw reps that have questionable English. I don't know how long they can drag this whole thing out. When Amazon accused me of multiple violations of their policies, which wasn't true, they kept me going with email back and forth. When I got customer service on the phone, they told me they would email me a link to where I could send an email instead.


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## Capella (Jan 16, 2014)

Mizuki said:


> Yes, the talked to someone on the phone. I think she used the Call Me feature. They are still delaying, and for some reason she tends to draw reps that have questionable English. I don't know how long they can drag this whole thing out. When Amazon accused me of multiple violations of their policies, which wasn't true, they kept me going with email back and forth. When I got customer service on the phone, they told me they would email me a link to where I could send an email instead.


Egads. Hope it is resolved for her soon.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Mizuki said:


> Yes, the talked to someone on the phone. I think she used the Call Me feature. They are still delaying, and for some reason she tends to draw reps that have questionable English. I don't know how long they can drag this whole thing out. When Amazon accused me of multiple violations of their policies, which wasn't true, they kept me going with email back and forth. When I got customer service on the phone, they told me they would email me a link to where I could send an email instead.


If you mean by questionable English being India then have your friend ask for a Spanish speaking person. 
I was having trouble with a different company and their overseas people were not understanding me so they put Spanish speaking when they transferred me. Yes the Spanish speaking person was in the states and told me what I wanted to know in English. She also reported the overseas people for upsetting a long term customer.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Where is the exodus? Kindle Unlimited launched with about 600,000 titles in July, now it's more than 800,000. If authors are pulling their books in droves, they are being replaced by an even bigger number of books. I don't see KU disappearing anytime soon.


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hi, folks, merged two similar topics, sorry for any confusion.
> 
> Betsy
> KB Mod


Ah, that explains it. No worries


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks, Capella and cinisajoy. With her luck, I think she'd get someone Spanish speaking without the English. She said she went back to the link she had for Call Me and it didn't work, but who knows. 

I think KU won't be going anywhere either. Amazon doesn't seem to dump its ideas easily. They may get quiet, but I don't think they go away. At first I thought Jeff was like King Midas or something, but I think his gift is wearing off. Or maybe I wanted it to dull a bit when it affects me adversely.

I said previously, I know tons of authors who took all their backlists and dumped them into KU. These were books that had dwindled to selling one or two copies a month. I know only romance writers, so you can imagine why KU is overrun with them.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan R. said:


> I'm guessing the guys running the KU pot at Amazon are readers, too:


Oh my! LOL


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Where is the exodus? Kindle Unlimited launched with about 600,000 titles in July, now it's more than 800,000. If authors are pulling their books in droves, they are being replaced by an even bigger number of books. I don't see KU disappearing anytime soon.


I have no numbers to back this, its only a suspicion, but I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of those new additions were once novels that have been broken up into pieces. This, and the flood of scamlets, are jacking up the number of "titles" in KU.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes, some readers are dropping their KU subscription, but the math says if borrows are climbing every month, more people enjoy KULL than hate it.  Amazon's subscriber base has to be growing.  

Anyone who thinks KU is a ripoff can always go back to discovering their books the old-fashioned way, by paying for each individual title in the hopes that it might turn out to be good.    If you're a reader of indie books, KULL's a bargain.  In fact, it's only bargain available for getting your hands on Amazon books cheaply, unless you haunt free lists.  If readers complain it's hard to find a good book via KULL, the same problem plagues the free lists, which are filled with dreck, yet readers don't often complain about getting books for free.

Ultimately, if readers want to be able to find good books more easily, they had better start doing more rating and reviewing.  Everyone wants it to be someone else's job to pull all the weight of finding the good stuff.  That sort of attitude reaps what it sows.  A lot of readers aren't thinking the whole process through.  If you think your tastes are utterly cool, then start reviewing.  You'll attract other readers who share your tastes, and you'll start picking up recommendations from them that you'll find you will like.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Where is the exodus? Kindle Unlimited launched with about 600,000 titles in July, now it's more than 800,000. If authors are pulling their books in droves, they are being replaced by an even bigger number of books. I don't see KU disappearing anytime soon.


65,706 of those are erotica titles - meaning books actually categorized as erotica. There are probably upwards of 100,000 once you pull in all the erotica miscategorized as women's fiction and inspirational romance. That's more than romance (52,632), scifi/fantasy (63,104), mystery/thriller/suspense (56,790).

Erotica authors can crank out a lot more 5k shorts for KU than anyone else can pump out 60k word romances or even 20k word paranormal serial installments. And at only 5k a pop it's cost effective to do it for $1.39 a pop. As the actual erotica category gets more competitive you'll find even more erotica crammed into sea stories and sports and family life.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

drno said:


> Kindle Unlimited Borrows
> 
> November: 4,676,258 up 13%
> October: 4,135,338 up 24%
> ...


Terrific research, Dr. No, since Amazon is usually not very forthcoming.

With those numbers in mind, do you have access to the number of KU subscribers for each month, too? That'd be useful!

Also... source?

Thanks for contributing facts to the discussion!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> IF the pot was increased by 3.5 million and the cut only went up 6 cents it means there were many many many more borrows.


True. But that info wasn't part of the discussion until recently. It does shed helpful new light on things, though!


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Evan R. said:


> That was _exactly_ what I looked like when I got the email. Only like a dude and stuff.


 

My husband said he could hear my eyeballs rolling from the next room.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Where is the exodus? Kindle Unlimited launched with about 600,000 titles in July, now it's more than 800,000. If authors are pulling their books in droves, they are being replaced by an even bigger number of books. I don't see KU disappearing anytime soon.


I think the "exodus" is largely concentrated to a portion of WC folks here. And we're but a fraction of all writers in KU.

Obviously, the library is growing, based on your numbers. So I think there are more titles coming in than going out.

That said, one should expect there to be "churn" on a service like this.

Even before KU, I know I personally only kept my books exclusive to Amazon for the Select benefits for only one or two terms... three to six months... and then pulled them out to "go wide." My habits haven't changed because of KU.

So, in the last few months, I've added in three new titles: Spoiled, Rotten, and The Woodsman.

Spoiled's term recently expired and I pulled it out so that I can eventually go wide with it. I may even try a perma-free with it to promote the trilogy, since Book 3 should be out this month.

I'll probably pull Rotten out when it expires in January.

I haven't decided on a second term for The Woodsman yet. I'm two reviews shy of reaching that magical "now I can promote it" bar of five reviews.

If I can get two more reviews on The Woodsman before its term expires, I'll probably keep it in for a second three-month term.

If not, I may as well go wide...


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

CraigInOregon said:


> Terrific research, Dr. No, since Amazon is usually not very forthcoming.
> 
> With those numbers in mind, do you have access to the number of KU subscribers for each month, too? That'd be useful!
> 
> ...


Amazon reports on your dashboard, in emails, and in their newsletter, as well as in the KDP community forum, the amount they pre-load the pot and how much they supplement it after the fact. These numbers are readily available. The number of borrows is calculated by dividing that total dollar value by the amount/borrow each of your KU/KOLL read garners. There's no magic, no secret reporting or sourcing.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Avis Black said:


> Yes, some readers are dropping their KU subscription, but the math says if borrows are climbing every month, more people enjoy KULL than hate it. Amazon's subscriber base has to be growing.
> 
> Anyone who thinks KU is a ripoff can always go back to discovering their books the old-fashioned way, by paying for each individual title in the hopes that it might turn out to be good.  If you're a reader of indie books, KULL's a bargain. In fact, it's only bargain available for getting your hands on Amazon books cheaply, unless you haunt free lists. If readers complain it's hard to find a good book via KULL, the same problem plagues the free lists, which are filled with dreck, yet readers don't often complain about getting books for free.
> 
> Ultimately, if readers want to be able to find good books more easily, they had better start doing more rating and reviewing. Everyone wants it to be someone else's job to pull all the weight of finding the good stuff. That sort of attitude reaps what it sows. A lot of readers aren't thinking the whole process through. If you think your tastes are utterly cool, then start reviewing. You'll attract other readers who share your tastes, and you'll start picking up recommendations from them that you'll find you will like.


None of that makes any difference if the per unit payout has run off a hefty amount of the talent and encouraged the... opposite of the talent.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Craig you just need to be finding one.  Woops man  (love the autocorrect) is on the short list of reads.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

sounds like a great time to experiment writing shorts outside my main genres. lee child has his thriller shorts on amazon singles. 10-15k thriller? horror? noir crime? load 'em up. maybe i'll discover a few plots/characters worth pursuing in a full series.


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## dianam (Nov 1, 2014)

This was my first novel, I published on October 31st and enrolled in KU because so many people seemed so enthralled with it. Now I'm frustrated that I didn't research other alternatives more. I've had some borrows, but I don't know that it's been worth the trade off of not being able to advertise elsewhere. Especially since I have one novel, not a series (yet), so I can do a countdown deal but what's the point really of free days? I think it will just get lost in the ruckus.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Avis Black said:


> Ultimately, if readers want to be able to find good books more easily, they had better start doing more rating and reviewing. Everyone wants it to be someone else's job to pull all the weight of finding the good stuff. That sort of attitude reaps what it sows. A lot of readers aren't thinking the whole process through. If you think your tastes are utterly cool, then start reviewing. You'll attract other readers who share your tastes, and you'll start picking up recommendations from them that you'll find you will like.


Amazon is working on that on behalf of readers. They released a new Kindle app for iOS yesterday (shot across Apple's bow?) and one of the key updates was a better way to browse KU:










Also better Goodreads integration. More about the update here:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,204196.0.html

Betsy


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## ThomasDiehl (Aug 23, 2014)

Half Pint said:


> I think it is interesting to see that it actually went up.


Don't worry, it'll go down again soon enough. Not because of any schemes, as people here seem to always assume, but simply because KU expands into two new markets this month (France and Brazil, I think) with French customers getting a free first month.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

It takes up to 90 days to leave KU, and last months pay out was the nail in the coffin for some. Author numbers will start falling over the coming months as authors leave. I suspect shorts are filling the novel shaped hole in KU. Nothing against shorts, I'm keeping my novella in there, 'cos Amazon are stupid enough to pay me over the 99c I'm asking for it.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

T. M. Bilderback said:


> I, for one, will not participate in KU again, until two things happen: 1) Amazon removes the exclusivity requirement, and 2) the payout rate becomes a flat fee that one can count on to make informed choices.


Same here. The earliest I can leave is Jan 31st. All my three novels will leave KU, and my fourth - released in Feb won't be touching Select at all.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

T. M. Bilderback said:


> I, for one, will not participate in KU again, until two things happen: 1) Amazon removes the exclusivity requirement, and 2) the payout rate becomes a flat fee that one can count on to make informed choices.


Unfortunately, that's never going to happen. It can't. There is no way to set a flat fee because the number of subscribers and the number of borrows is constantly changing.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

vlmain said:


> Unfortunately, that's never going to happen. It can't. There is no way to set a flat fee because the number of subscribers and the number of borrows is constantly changing.


The royalty per borrow is a made up number. Of course Amazon can choose to make it a flat $1.50 if they want to, the same way they decided to raise it exactly 6 cents this time. The point is, they DON'T want to. They knew how much money to add to the pot to get exactly the number they did. Why they chose that exact number is the only thing open to debate IMHO. They will lower or raise it depending on what suits them. If they decide they can lower it to $1 they will. That they haven't yet means the market isn't ready for it... yet.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

While the uncertainty of the fluctuating payout is bound to discourage some authors (ok, maybe a lot) from enrolling their books, I believe amazon understands that it also 1) prevents the "library" from stagnating to a certain stereotypical type/size of book, and 2) encourages authors to give it a try in the hopes the payout goes up. Let's say they decide they want the average payout to be a buck. If they set it at that, then most of the books will be sub-$2.99 titles with the occasional backlist or non-selling $2.99+ title needing exposure. By keeping the payout moving up and down (emphasis on up), I think it encourages more $2.99+ titles than it discourages them.

Or I could be way off base. In any case, they're clearly using the volatility as a strategy to benefit the program, probably to encourage churn so subscribers constantly get some fresh new material. So, no, I don't see the "pot" going anywhere, nor do I see them getting rid of the exclusivity requirement. I do, however, see the payout average dropping to about $1.10 with +/- fluctuations in the 15-20 cent range.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Avis Black said:


> Yes, some readers are dropping their KU subscription, but the math says if borrows are climbing every month, more people enjoy KULL than hate it. Amazon's subscriber base has to be growing.


No. The mathematics are really simple.

Number of borrows = number of books borrowed and read to 10%

Note the missing factor from your claim that is not in the mathematics? The number of borrowers.

If you had to read100% of at least a 30k book to trigger a payment then time would become a factor and via time the number of borrowers would be a (hard to estimate) factor. But reading 10% of even a 30k book? Time is not a factor because of the generous payment trigger that Amazon have put in. Consequently borrowers are not a factor (even if they are a cute movie).

Safety notice: no opinions for or against KU were harmed in the writing of this comment.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> Thank you so much. I knew I'd heard something about it but couldn't remember quite what. My mind is like a steel trap...nothing gets in.


For like a day, they had something where if you purchased a Kindle, you got six months. I saw the ad on Amazon's page, but I looked again later that same day, and it wasn't there, so maybe it was a glitch? Limited number of subscriptions or time to purchase them? Like a lightning deal maybe? Anyway, I know I saw the ad and I think a few others did here as well and that's why it's so confusing.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

Both my full length novels are dropping out of Select this month. Not worth it to keep them in KU. However, as others have said, it looks like it's at least worth a try for short fiction. So I'll be adding 2 short stories to KU that have gone past their lucrative streaks in other places. 

I agree that short stories, novellas, serials, and erotica will increasingly take up space in what KU has to offer. If there's a market for that, well good. I'll take advantage of it.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

T. M. Bilderback said:


> And, if it doesn't, I won't be participating in the Select/KU program again. Kindle Worlds, however, might be a possibility...


I'm not familiar with Kindle Worlds. I have heard it mentioned a few times and get the gist of it, I think, but have never looked into it. I probably should.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

The dilemma is the same as it's always been, even before KU: Can you make more on the other platforms that you can from Select/KU ?

What the payout happens to be is only relevant in that light. If the action you'll see at the other platforms is a pittance, as it is for many, staying in KU is still profitable even if the payout shrinks to $0.50. Making an emotional decision to storm away because you aren't happy about the payout dropping is a bad business decision *unless* you are going to make more money going wide. Many won't. This is a genre-specific decision to a large degree. It's been my overly-general observation that (in years past, anyway) if your book has been void of descriptive sex scenes you won't make much going wide, and as an avid reader of this board I haven't seen much posted lately that makes me believe otherwise -- yet, anyway.

The readers that aren't in KU aren't in it for one reason and it's that they are concerned about getting cornered into a unsatisfactory limited choice of what to read next. Same reason my wife and I will never be sold a timeshare. We like having wide open vacation opportunities.

But there is a huge timeshare market out there and companies do well simply arranging trades. So there is a market here in KU and anything you sell to it is gravy. I don't believe it cannibalizes sales all that much because most timeshare owners are only going to stay in a timeshare, feeling they are locked in and don't want to waste it.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Arkan9 said:


> The dilemma is the same as it's always been, even before KU: Can you make more on the other platforms that you can from Select/KU ?
> 
> What the payout happens to be is only relevant in that light. If the action you'll see at the other platforms is a pittance, as it is for many, staying in KU is still profitable even if the payout shrinks to $0.50.


True.

I'm not happy about the falling payouts, and I'm not trying to be silly, but I'd have to seriously consider whether to leave Select/KU even if the payout dropped to $0.00. I was "wide" for two years before joining Select, and even then 95% of my income came from Amazon. If I left Select/KU, there is evidence to suggest I'd flounder with other vendors, plus I'd get hammered on Amazon, as its algos appear to punish non-Select titles.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Going along with this scheme now is only going to hurt you worse long term. Once they realize they can pay you jack, what else are they going to take out of your hide?


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Arkan9 said:


> The dilemma is the same as it's always been, even before KU: Can you make more on the other platforms that you can from Select/KU ?
> 
> What the payout happens to be is only relevant in that light. If the action you'll see at the other platforms is a pittance, as it is for many, staying in KU is still profitable even if the payout shrinks to $0.50. Making an emotional decision to storm away because you aren't happy about the payout dropping is a bad business decision *unless* you are going to make more money going wide. Many won't. This is a genre-specific decision to a large degree. It's been my overly-general observation that (in years past, anyway) if your book has been void of descriptive sex scenes you won't make much going wide, and as an avid reader of this board I haven't seen much posted lately that makes me believe otherwise -- yet, anyway.
> 
> ...


Kobo is now 20% of my sales, up drastically since I went BACK wide after leaving KU in October. I write thrillers in the 110k word range.

Will you do as well? I don't know. One thing I can guarantee though is you will never gain any traction on the other platforms if you don't have your books there in the first place. Your argument is a bit circular, but I understand why you are making it.

Everyone will just have to make their own decision.

Edit; "... I'd have to seriously consider whether to leave Select/KU even if the payout dropped to $0.00."

Wait, what? So you're saying that even if Amazon paid you nothing you would still stay in KU?!?


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Going along with this scheme now is only going to hurt you worse long term. Once they realize they can pay you jack, what else are they going to take out of your hide?


If you believe that, be the first to pull all your books. Lead by example.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Arkan9 said:


> The dilemma is the same as it's always been, even before KU


Not necessarily. If having your books in KU is cannibalizing sales on Amazon irrespective of how your sales are elsewhere, then pulling them out makes sense.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

> If having your books in KU is cannibalizing sales on Amazon irrespective of how your sales are elsewhere, then pulling them out makes sense.


One of the points I made in that post is that I don't believe it is.

Think about what your reading habits would be if you were a KU reader. Would you be spending $4 for your next book to read? Not likely. You'd be shopping for it in the KU library, where there's no charge.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Arkan9 said:


> Think about what your reading habits would be if you were a KU reader. Would you be spending $4 for your next book to read? Not likely. You'd be shopping for it in the KU library, where there's no charge.


That's a big IF, though.

I still sell a minimum of six copies for every borrow, going by my November results. And November was a solid month for me.

I think a lot of folks still buy eBooks. I know I do. No personal interest in KU.

(December, so far, not so much...)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am accidentally in KU.  It is great if you are looking for say a quick guide to angry birds golden eggs.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I am accidentally in KU. It is great if you are looking for say a quick guide to angry birds golden eggs.


I sometimes wonder how you ever manage to leave the house.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> I sometimes wonder how you ever manage to leave the house.


In all honesty I don't most days. Did leave this morning because needed groceries.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I have heard a rumor that Cin, my bestest pal, reads while driving.

Not audio books, either!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInOregon said:


> I have heard a rumor that Cin, my bestest pal, reads while driving.
> 
> Not audio books, either!


Cin can read all she wants in a car. You don't want me driving. I can't judge distances worth a darn.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Arkan9 said:


> One of the points I made in that post is that I don't believe it is.
> 
> Think about what your reading habits would be if you were a KU reader. Would you be spending $4 for your next book to read? Not likely. You'd be shopping for it in the KU library, where there's no charge.


See, this comes back to books not being widgets. Not all books are equal, so if that book you heard about on Facebook or twitter or whatever isn't on KU, you're going to have to pay (or return-steal) for it. If it is in KU and you have an account, well of course you're going to take the 'free' option because that books spawned from the aether and it's not like someone's rent or medication is riding on it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Actually I had the choice of borrowing "the Hobbit" or buying it for $3.  I picked buy.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Actually I had the choice of borrowing "the Hobbit" or buying it for $3. I picked buy.


The Hobbit is a known quantity, though. You're not taking a risk as you pretty much know what you're getting.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> See, this comes back to books not being widgets. Not all books are equal, so if that book you heard about on Facebook or twitter or whatever isn't on KU, you're going to have to pay (or return-steal) for it.


Or not bother with it at all. There are vanishingly few books that I absolutely must have, regardless of price. Maybe one or two a year. For the rest, price is always a consideration (which is why I read so many self-pubbed books). And now that I have KU, I find I'm reluctant to pay for any book. If I like the look of a book, but it isn't in KU, well, there's plenty of other books that are.

I don't know quite what you mean books not being widgets. Do you mean they're all different? Yes, they are, but still relatively interchangeable. I think of them like cupcakes: I might like the chocolate ones best, but if I can get the cherry ones cheaper, or free, well, {shrug} I like cherry ones too.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> The Hobbit is a known quantity, though. You're not taking a risk as you pretty much know what you're getting.


Unlike the Angry Birds books which were an unknown as to which would have the information I was seeking.

Oh and the cherry cupcake sounds fabulous.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Or not bother with it at all. There are vanishingly few books that I absolutely must have, regardless of price. Maybe one or two a year. For the rest, price is always a consideration (which is why I read so many self-pubbed books). And now that I have KU, I find I'm reluctant to pay for any book. If I like the look of a book, but it isn't in KU, well, there's plenty of other books that are.


Mind if I ask where you hear about books?

If you're just going through the site, yeah, I get you. But I have to believe that said choice would change if you came onto the site pre-hyped for a book and then found it wasn't part of the subscription.



> I don't know quite what you mean books not being widgets. Do you mean they're all different? Yes, they are, but still relatively interchangeable. I think of them like cupcakes: I might like the chocolate ones best, but if I can get the cherry ones cheaper, or free, well, {shrug} I like cherry ones too.


Maybe it's a genre thing. For me (keeping with the cupcake analogy) I'm not happy with chocolate ones with cream filling, I only want ones without cream filling but with little shark sprinkles. I won't settle for cream-filled ones because I won't enjoy them.

Stepping out of the cupcake analogy, I'm a Fantasy fan. But I don't want Dark Fantasy, I want Epic with high magic and a good magic system. Now once I'm done with LE Modessit and Brandon Sanderson's work, I have to dig to find my fix. I'm not going to accept ASOFaI or Sword of Truth whether they're free or not. I'm very willing to pay for what I want rather than get kind of what I want for free.

And there are a lot of people out there like that. A book is not just a book and any one will do you.

Again, it's probably dependent on genre, but again, I have to imagine that readers in, say erotica are also going to be digging for stuff that caters to their kinks and willing to pay for what they want rather than settling for free stuff that's not what they're really after.


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

> I have to imagine that readers in, say erotica are also going to be digging for stuff that caters to their kinks and willing to pay for what they want rather than settling for free stuff that's not what they're really after.


In which case they aren't going to be in KU. This is the entire point. The KU borrows are an *additional* market. For the most part, KU members are paying the $10 per month to read the KU library, and probably not reading much else. So it boils down to whether the KU market or the other markets are more lucrative -- plus throw in the conspiracy theory of lost visibility in the non-KU market at Amazon (them throwing some kind of doom-switch on you) if you leave Select.

Probably an easy decision for best-selling authors making 5 figures per month. For us struggling mid-listers, not so much.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Mind if I ask where you hear about books?


I don't often browse for books. Mostly they get mentioned on a blog or in a discussion somewhere. I pick up a surprising number of books through this board, actually, sometimes just from sig images (they work, people!), or sometimes from discussion. But even if I'm hyped for a book, the price is almost always a consideration, except for a very small number of favourite authors. I simply won't pay a lot of money for an unknown author, whether self or trad pubbed. And now, with KU, I'm even less likely to.



> Stepping out of the cupcake analogy, I'm a Fantasy fan. But I don't want Dark Fantasy, I want Epic with high magic and a good magic system. Now once I'm done with LE Modessit and Brandon Sanderson's work, I have to dig to find my fix. I'm not going to accept ASOFaI or Sword of Truth whether they're free or not. I'm very willing to pay for what I want rather than get kind of what I want for free.


I understand that. But I've found that some of my most awesome reads have come from stepping outside my usual comfort zone. Sometimes you don't know what you'll enjoy until you try it.



> Again, it's probably dependent on genre, but again, I have to imagine that readers in, say erotica are also going to be digging for stuff that caters to their kinks and willing to pay for what they want rather than settling for free stuff that's not what they're really after.


Yeah, I can see that. 

But here's what I really like about KU. I can download a book just to try it. It's not the sample, it's the whole thing, so with non-fiction, I can skim through to find out if it's going to be useful or not. With fiction, I can read until I lose interest or get to the end, then it goes away again. No guilt. No stuff cluttering up my Kindle that I'll never read again. I have books on my Kindle that I bought two years ago because - well, who knows why? And I haven't worked up the enthusiasm to read them yet, but I feel I ought to. Because I *paid* for them. There's none of that with KU. I'm enjoying it more than I expected.

Sorry to derail the thread, which isn't really about the reader experience.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Arkan9 said:


> In which case they aren't going to be in KU. This is the entire point. The KU borrows are an *additional* market. For the most part, KU members are paying the $10 per month to read the KU library, and probably not reading much else.


If that's true, then why did sales of my erotica titles completely tank with the onset of KU and not begin to recover until I was able to move in 20% of my catalog?

I've seen this argument any number of times here, but I have a hard time seeing how it makes sense. Where did this sudden wave of KU borrowers come from? They didn't spring from Jeff Bezos' head fully-formed. They're not a huge wave of deserters from Apple/Kobo/Google, because most of us are seeing sales go up on those platforms, not cratering. So did Amazon somehow manage to tap into some hitherto unknown wellspring of voracious readers who only devour KU books?

Or are they just the same old Amazon customers who are now paying us $1.39 per book read instead of $2.07?


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

> So did Amazon somehow manage to tap into some hitherto unknown wellspring of voracious readers who only devour KU books? Or are they just the same old Amazon customers who are now paying us $1.39 per book read instead of $2.07?


Obviously they divided their customer base. Yes, it means less customers now paying for books. Cry all you like about it, but it's a done deal. Now we must all choose between KU and the other platforms. And for struggling mid-listers who write books without sex scenes, it's a difficult decision. Too me it looks tougher there than here still.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Arkan9 said:


> In which case they aren't going to be in KU. This is the entire point. The KU borrows are an *additional* market. For the most part, KU members are paying the $10 per month to read the KU library, and probably not reading much else. So it boils down to whether the KU market or the other markets are more lucrative -- plus throw in the conspiracy theory of lost visibility in the non-KU market at Amazon (them throwing some kind of doom-switch on you) if you leave Select.
> 
> Probably an easy decision for best-selling authors making 5 figures per month. For us struggling mid-listers, not so much.


Actually, until they stop shoving out free and discounted months like the ship's on fire, it's not an additional market because everyone gets to take a shot, not just those who will only shop within the KU framework.

I get the need to rationalize KU's cannibalization away, but... it just doesn't work. At some level or another, it IS eating SOME of your sales. Sales that would have paid you fairly instead of based on a scheme too unfair for carnival games.

Say the paycut is worth it for whatever reason, but it IS a pay cut. It's a discount you're giving Amazon for a promotion an a bit of dishonest jiggering of the ranks.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Randall Wood said:


> Edit; "... I'd have to seriously consider whether to leave Select/KU even if the payout dropped to $0.00."
> 
> Wait, what? So you're saying that even if Amazon paid you nothing you would still stay in KU?!?


I said I'd have to seriously consider it. And that's based on the emotion-free calculation that Arkan9 presented above: could I make more on other platforms than I could by staying exclusive with Amazon? I don't think I could, even at a much lower payout than the current one. Is $0.0 (I hear Animal House here) an extreme example? Yes. Is it _impossible_ to earn more overall from Amazon with a KU payout of zero than by selling books with other vendors? In my case, maybe not. As I said above, in the two years before I joined Select nearly all of my sales came from Amazon anyway; plus, my normal Amazon sales would likely suffer if I left Select since its current algos appear to punish non-Select titles. I probably fall outside the norm here. Most of my income is from standalone travel memoirs. I don't have a genre series or a permafree. I don't do any social media or marketing other than the promo opportunities that Select has offered over the years. When my books were available everywhere else, it was obvious that you had to be a good and tenacious marketer to gain traction on those platforms. That's not me, and I decided to let Amazon do most of my heavy lifting. But like you said, each of us have to make our own decisions. And for the time being, the periodic BookBub ad in conjunction with a 70% Kindle Countdown Deal--and the knock-on effect of that--is vastly more important to me than the plunging KOLL/KU payout.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Mind if I ask where you hear about books?
> 
> If you're just going through the site, yeah, I get you. But I have to believe that said choice would change if you came onto the site pre-hyped for a book and then found it wasn't part of the subscription.


I rarely ever rush out to buy a book because of word of mouth. I usually shop by genre/subject. I can do that just as easily in KU as on Amazon in general. My choices will be more limited in KU, but then again, price limits my choices in the general Kindle store even more. The last time I paid more than $5 for a book that wasn't a gift, was back in March when I bought The Martian. I hadn't heard anything about the book, but the cover caught my eye and the premise was exactly something I'd love to read. Also, I had about $80 in Kindle credit from that price fixing settlement, so I splurged.

I do discuss books a lot with my family, but while there are a few books we all liked, in general, my tastes are much different. (they love Pride and Prejudice, for example, while I'd much rather read a Tom Clancy novel)


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I've been in and out and still can't decide what is the best thing to do. A couple of months back, I did OK...well, OK for me anyway which is about 10-15 copies a month.

But this month my sales are as dead as Fredo was to Michael.


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## vrcumming (May 17, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> I get the need to rationalize KU's cannibalization away, but... it just doesn't work. At some level or another, it IS eating SOME of your sales.


I put all of my titles in KDP Select when KU was announced, just to try it out, and did fairly well across the board with both sales and borrows. (Both increased on all titles.) The funny thing was that my shorter works (15K-18K words each) were being borrowed 3-4 times more than they were selling, but the reverse was true for the bundle (consisting of six episodes of shorter works). It was purchased 2-3 times more often than people were borrowing it.

That changed at the end of November when I made a key change to the back matter in each of my books: I added a direct link to the next episode in the series at the end of the story. At the end of the first episode, I gave people two options, the first being to read the next book in the series and the second being to read the entire (bundled) series.

Um, oops. Almost immediately, my borrows [ETA: and sales] on the shorter episodes plummeted while the borrows on the bundle skyrocketed. (Relatively speaking. These books are steady sellers, but not large ones.) I'm not griping over "lost" earnings because this was an experiment for me, but yes, sales on the bundle were cannibalized by borrows.

I'll be taking the bundle out of KDP Select when its term expires in a few days, while leaving the individual episodes in. I figure, this will give readers the best options for reading (borrow vs. buy) as well as maximizing my income, since the episodes are priced at US$0.99 each and the bundle at US$3.99. As long as borrows are earning more than $0.35 each, I'm keeping the individual episodes in KU. It would take a very compelling and well-thought-out argument to persuade me to pull out while I'm still making more on borrows than on sales.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Or not bother with it at all. There are vanishingly few books that I absolutely must have, regardless of price. Maybe one or two a year. For the rest, price is always a consideration (which is why I read so many self-pubbed books). And now that I have KU, I find I'm reluctant to pay for any book. If I like the look of a book, but it isn't in KU, well, there's plenty of other books that are.
> 
> I don't know quite what you mean books not being widgets. Do you mean they're all different? Yes, they are, but still relatively interchangeable. I think of them like cupcakes: I might like the chocolate ones best, but if I can get the cherry ones cheaper, or free, well, {shrug} I like cherry ones too.


I am the opposite to this. To use your cupcake analogy - I can only have limited cupcakes because they go straight to my thighs (my time to read books) so if I am going to eat a cupcake, I am going to make darn sure it is a flavour I like (a really good book with genuine hype - usually by an author I know - always non-fiction by the way - I have stopped reading fiction). Have you ever had that annoying experience where you eat a sugary, high-calorie treat and it actually doesn't taste very good? You then have that version of buyer's regret where you realise you have to spend about 30 minutes on a treadmill to burn those calories but you didn't even enjoy it.

That's how I feel about taking a 2.99 risk on an unknown, usually self-pubbed book.

Even though I am in Australia and therefore don't have access to KU as a reader, I doubt any books I usually read would be in the program so would be of little use to me.

As an author, the only concrete information I have on the merits (or lack thereof) of KU is my own revenue, which has increased by around 10-20% since KU started. Everything else (for me) is conjecture.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

PaulineMRoss said:


> And now that I have KU, I find I'm reluctant to pay for any book.


One of the problems with trying to decide what to do is trying to figure out how many readers will react to KU this way and how many in other ways. I'm an avid KU user, but I have pre-orders outstanding right now for 4 books that I'm going to pay full traditional price for when they come out and that's that. The price of those books could get too high, and then I'd get them from the library for the first read and buy them later when the price comes down, but they're books I know I'll want to reread someday.

What KU has done for me is made me less resistant to trying new authors. I've been burned so many times by a good sample and then a book I paid for falling apart with characters who act with no believable motivation or a ridiculous plot that I'm chary of paying to try new authors. I'm one of those who have always looked askance at the free and $.99 books. Nine times out of ten there's something in the blurb that stops me cold. I still look sometimes, but boy it's got to sound wonderful. KU blew away my resistance. Download the whole book, get fed up with it at any point and _zap_. No financial consequence. Will I buy other books by the author? Yes, if they're reasonably priced, which means $4.99 and less.

If there are enough KU subscribers like me, for a midlist indie to have a few books in KU would be a good idea. If most are like Pauline, then the calculation changes. And probably different genres, authors, and individual books will provoke different reader reactions. Grrr. It gives me a headache.


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