# Are there any of you with a ton of books out making no money at all?



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

It's Writer Angst Monday here. Bad, bad day for the soul.
And now I'm in worrying mode.

We hear often how a lot of books out make money. Sure thing! No worries! A breeze!
Are there people around here who follow that idea that have dozens of books and make almost nothing?


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

How many is a ton? I've got five novels, three short stories and an MG novella... best month I've ever done was about $90. This month... I think at $9.

Mind you, this is better than the many, many months I made $0 with only one or two books.

By my calculations, I'll only need to publish another 200 books before I can start thinking about quitting the day job. Hmmm... I can do one a month if I push myself, ignore the family... let's make it one every other month... that's 20 years. Aw, hell, I'll be close to retirement age by then...


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## Ryan Sullivan (Jul 9, 2011)

Je n'espère pas, Nathalie!

What in the world do I aim for if not to have a bazillion books out? I can't think of any better plan than that with my puny human brain.


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

I'll throw in.....
Everything I own is below
One story collection, two short stories and two novellas
Last two years I made 24 bucks each year- thats almost 50 bucks

But following the advice of everyone here I am hard at work on at least 3 new short stories and a fantasy novel. Not that it's a guarantee of any cash flow but I keep hammering away, hoping.

Good luck to everyone else.....


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

A dozen novels, probably as many individual short stories, a half dozen collections, a couple of screenplays, blah, blah ... altogether I've got about 50 e-books available and about a dozen or so print books. I'm making money, but I'm not getting rich on Amazon. I've been an indie since late 2009 and my sales at other sites have gradually grown over the years, while my sales at Amazon have been up and down, up and down.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

It is a fallacy that more books out = more money in.

Everyone who tells you that assumes:

1 Your books will be discovered.
2 Readers will like your books once they are discovered.
3 Readers will buy your books if they like them.
4 Your books are all in the same genre so that readers will buy the rest of your books after liking the first book.

Nathalie, you are doing everyone a great service with your Find Read Love websites. That helps with assumption 1. Everyone, if you read WC carefully, you will notice that the really successful people not only have many books out, but they also talk about how much promotion their books are getting, and they sound disappointed if one of their books isn't getting any promotion one particular month. Read the Bookbub thread, if you don't know what I mean. 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,130094.0.html

Assumption 2 hinges on the cover, the book description, and the level of editing and writing in the book. All 4 of these have to be great, or who is going to like the book?

Assumption 3 has to do with price and prejudices.

Assumption 4 is what we are really talking about. Once 1-3 are met, then yes, writing more books really is the best way to keep the ball rolling. But writing more bad books won't make a first bad book sell.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Yeah it's not necessarily true. I have a ton out (20) and am not making a ton of money. I make a living to be sure.  Enough to pay my bills, etc and to travel, but not anywhere near where I thought I would be.


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

Vivi    And you have vampire books too. But at least you are bringing in a few bucks. Good for you ( and all)


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## Ryan Sullivan (Jul 9, 2011)

I think it's fair to assume ton of books doesn't equal ton of money. But if ton of books equals a living, that's hardly comparable to "no money at all".  Don't we all want to make a living at it?

Sorry if I'm a bit snarky at the moment. I just wrote a 1,100 word speech for Uni and it's late, and I have a test in the morning and I don't know how I'm going to get up for it but I'm not tired!


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm in the same boat as I'm sure a lot of others are as well. I have about a dozen or so books but just not a whole lot of sales. Granted, my sales are far better than they've ever been, but they're still far from astounding.


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## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

I have 5 books out, but I find my sales always slump after 6 months of a new release. And I mean REALLY slump. So I'm desperate to get my new book out as my last one was out back in January, which is the longest gap I've had between releases. 

Promos bump sales, but as more and more books come on to the market, I'm finding that this bump isn't lasting as long as it used to. Now, I have to work a lot harder to maintain sales - stacking up blog features, paid advertising, review requests etc. It's all-consuming. I'm in awe of those authors whose books rocket into the stratosphere, but my personal experience is that the more work I put in, the more I get out.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't make a lot of money, and I have thirteen titles released (fourteen if you count the anthology I have a story in).

But....

I not only write in all different genres, most of the time, my genres are not really identifiable at all. And I was inactive for about a year and a half, not releasing books or talking to people about them.

While both of those might be important, I find that the marketing does less good than releasing new books. Yes, you have to announce the books in some minor way. But really, I sell more books just interacting with people normally. Just having titles in my sig and on my blog's sidebar.

And yes, talking about my books on my blog, but not _selling_ them. Just blathering about my writing adventures sells more books for me. The reason is because my books don't look like they would be interesting to the people who might find them most interesting. My approach isn't to say "I like westerns, I bet a western would make a good mystery" but rather to say "I don't actually like westerns, but I bet I would like it if it were like a cozy mystery with shoot outs." And so the people who most like my books are those who say "Yuck! It's a western! I'm not going to read that."

The interesting thing is that it is really slow, but I get happy readers. By the time I had sold 100 copies of Have Gun, Will Play, I had ten reviews, all 4 and 5 stars, nearly all unsolicited (I think two of them might have been blind submissions to a book blogger). Every one of them started with "I don't like westerns, but..." None of the reviews caused a bounce in sales. Because people still look at the book and think "but I don't like westerns."

(Edited to add: After those first ten reviews, I experimented with soliciting reviews as folks say to do here. Did not help at all. Further, though the star ratings on the reviews stayed in the 4-5 star range, the reviews themselves were half-assed, and I think did more harm than good.)

What has caused an increase in sales have been three things:

1.) I sometimes put a mystery short story collection on Perma-Free, and that has two stories from the same series. However, that's only good for a couple of months before the downloads trickle off. And it doesn't cause enough additional sales to offset the fact that, when I have a price on it, I make most of my income from that book. Also, when I put that book up for free, it gets trashed in reviews. But even though some people scream that there are _westerns_ in their pure mystery collection, others actually read it and go by the novel and related novelettes.

2.) Exposure on book sites -- the sorts of things people tout here as the best place to get some buzz -- does NO good whatsoever for my books. (Your book has to look like a best seller, and be easily identifiable to sell on those sites.) But for Have Gun, Will Play, an advertising banner on a popular humor blog (via Project Wonderful) does get hits, and there is usually a bump in sales over the next week or so. This does not work for my other books. I don't know why. Book people don't like to mix their westerns and mysteries, but maybe the mainstream reader does.

3.) For all of my books, I can connect most of my sales to blathering on my blog about my characters. I've actually been told by fans that some blog post about a characters phobia of cheese intrigued them and got them to read the book. And then they read my other books.

I will say it out loud:

The idea that marketing works is also a fallacy.

It doesn't. Sure you have to interact and get some word out there, but the only thing that works is the books themselves. If you don't write commercial books in the first place, you won't get that many sales, no matter how much marketing you do. If that's the case, you have only one choice and that is to keep your small audience happy, and build it slowly, buy writing more.

If you do write commercial books -- if you're writing erotica or thrillers or well defined romance, for instance -- and you've written a lot of books in the same series, then anything will do you good. A little marketing will see a bounce. Writing another book will see a bounce.

But if you are writing commercial books, and nothing is working, then you need to look to the books themselves. (And part of the solution is to keep writing and try to get better at it -- forget your old books, write better new books.)

Camille


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

I would definitely be in this situation if I were relying on amazon.com for sales. I just checked my recent figures, and with 11 books out I usually sell less than 2 copies a day there (that's overall, not per book) whereas on amazon UK I sell between 16 and 20 copies a day overall. On the smashwords outlets I seem to mostly sell in Canada, Australia and NZ.

I think it may be partly because (a) my books tend to be very British, often rather Scottish, and (b) I usually sell at $0.99 to keep the price down for my UK readers, whom I usually think of as older people living on a small income and of course (c) I never do any promotion! This isn't a grumble, it's just the way things are.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

CEMartin2 said:


> How many is a ton? I've got five novels, three short stories and an MG novella... best month I've ever done was about $90. This month... I think at $9.
> 
> Mind you, this is better than the many, many months I made $0 with only one or two books.
> 
> By my calculations, I'll only need to publish another 200 books before I can start thinking about quitting the day job. Hmmm... I can do one a month if I push myself, ignore the family... let's make it one every other month... that's 20 years. Aw, hell, I'll be close to retirement age by then...


Five definitely isn't a ton. I started hitting "living on my royalties money" at ten. DWS says you have to have 20 out to be considered a professional.


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## FMH (May 18, 2013)

When I got started I read a lot of interviews of the successful authors, about how they did it. Hugh Howey, Amanda Hocking, Karen McQuestion, Bella Andre and JA Konrath. Highly recommend googling their names + interview and gleaning knowledge from those who've gone before us, and who've done well.

Under a pen name - not this one - I've written a series and the first book I put free, after some doing to get it going on Amazon. 
* I studied successful blurbs
* I looked up keywords with google keyword and amazon auto fill in search
* I studied covers
* I even changed the cover mid-publish and my free downloads jumped from 111 a day to 500 a day and then kept going up.

I did this because I read Smashword's guide to marketing and Let's Get Visible (both recommended from authors on here)...as well what was said in the interviews.

Then I kept writing for that series... so that readers would have more to read - and I didn't make it go on forever - when it was all done - I combined the set into a box set and that is selling about 30 a day here and 20 in the UK...and these numbers are going up by the day. Because it is set at 4.99, and I have low overhead, it's now paying my bills and has freed me up to write more.

I've also taken the very good tip in the Smashwords guide about Back Matter. There's a link to my Mail Chimp mailing list there, as well as links to my other titles, and I request to please review and recommend if they loved the book. On the Mail Chimp mailing list I let them know I will only email them when a new book comes out, and only once. And I don't ask for their names - just emails. You can set this up in Mail Chimp and the how-to is in the Smashwords book (which I think is free?). He was right that email is a great way to market.. these are people who signed up and want to know - so every time a new book comes - they'll get the first word. Powerful connectivity.

The first book free system works. "Here's my writing style and stories... like it? Great - here's more. No? Cool beans. No harm, no foul"  It may be that only a fraction buy the others, but that fraction tells two other people and it grows and grows. 

It takes time - but done methodically, has served me very well and I'm incredibly grateful. Glad to be able to pass this info on.

(and if you're wondering why I didn't for this series... I will, but the first book is yet to be written so I'm waiting. It will predate the current first book. My muse is running the show - don't hate the messenger.   )


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

My original pen name (Dalya Moon) has 7 books and sells about 24 books per month, but that's with zero promotion, and no new titles for 14 months.

I tried some perma-frees, but it did nothing. 

I'd say I've learned as much studying my failures as my successes. It totally sucks that I have to try 10 things to find 1 thing that works, but I suppose that's life.


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## avwrite (Feb 11, 2013)

F.M.Hopkins said:


> When I got started I read a lot of interviews of the successful authors, about how they did it. Hugh Howey, Amanda Hocking, Karen McQuestion, Bella Andre and JA Konrath. Highly recommend googling their names + interview and gleaning knowledge from those who've gone before us, and who've done well.
> 
> Under a pen name - not this one - I've written a series and the first book I put free, after some doing to get it going on Amazon.
> * I studied successful blurbs
> ...


Really helpful advice! I also agree the first book free in a series works. I've seen some steady results (though not like the numbers you have yet as I only have 2 books in the series and I'm about the publish my third). I'm targeting a 6 book total on that series.

One thing I have to say though, at least for a first book free in a series, is it takes time (as you stated). People download these books, but they might not get to them months later, especially if they got it from Bookbub or some other ad site. Once they do get to it though, and they like it, they'll keep buying the next ones.

Patience is key.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Mimi said:


> My original pen name (Dalya Moon) has 7 books and sells about 24 books per month, but that's with zero promotion, and no new titles for 14 months.
> 
> I tried some perma-frees, but it did nothing.
> 
> I'd say I've learned as much studying my failures as my successes. It totally sucks that I have to try 10 things to find 1 thing that works, but I suppose that's life.


So true Dayla. It's all trial and error. I love hearing from those who have tried and failed, tried again, then bam found the thing/book/cover/blurb that works.

I'm still trying to find the thing but I know I will eventually.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Mimi said:


> My original pen name (Dalya Moon) has 7 books and sells about 24 books per month, but that's with zero promotion, and no new titles for 14 months.
> 
> I tried some perma-frees, but it did nothing.
> 
> I'd say I've learned as much studying my failures as my successes. It totally sucks that I have to try 10 things to find 1 thing that works, but I suppose that's life.


I think it largely has to do with genre, also. I mean, you can have 100 vampire books out and never be discovered because it may not be the hot genre now.

Which, I guess, these days, it's probably a good thing to write in multiple genres now.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

TattooedWriter said:


> Definition: ton
> /tən/
> Noun
> A unit of weight equal to *2,000* pounds avoirdupois (*907*.19 kg).
> ...


That's only if each book weights 16 oz (454 g metric). If you write chihuahua-killing epic fantasy, you might get there in just 150 titles! 

As for ebooks ... well, keep writing!


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## Izzy Hammerstein (Jul 6, 2011)

One can only keep trying and plugging away.
What else have we got to do other than do what we love to do - write stories.


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## Zenferno (May 29, 2013)

I've published 5 short stories so far and making a steady $120-$150 a month since I started writing/publishing in May.  I had hoped to be selling 1 of each book a day on average but I'm still pretty happy with where I'm at.  I'm learning fast and discovering new sub-genres to write in which is pretty exciting.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Shalini Boland said:


> I'm in awe of those authors whose books rocket into the stratosphere, but my personal experience is that the more work I put in, the more I get out.


This.

Sure some people get lucky on their first book ever released... but the normative case, IMO, is what Shalini said.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

31 total items out across four pen names. Last month I made about $15. Only three are full length novels but its safe to say shorts, collections and novellas don't sell well. Just keep on writing the next book!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

I've got sixteen books out and my sales have only risen the more I put out (knock on wood).  When I started publishing novellas, sales jumped by an order of magnitude.

I think that writing engaging, entertaining stories that people want to read is far more important than the total number of books, or the length of the books for that matter.  Also, I suspect that selling your books on multiple sites does a lot more to keep the sales regular than most of us think, even if 80% or more of the sales go to Amazon.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I've got sixteen books out and my sales have only risen the more I put out (knock on wood). When I started publishing novellas, sales jumped by an order of magnitude.


This is an interesting bit of info: I keep hearing that novels sell better than shorter works, but I just haven't found it's so. At all.

And that can be a destructive myth, if it leads people to set aside those shorter works and struggle over a novel, which may not even be their most efficient length.

Now... one of the reasons I think my novels sell less well is simply because it's a long time between books in the same series. With novellas and novelettes, you can hit the audience with more books in a shorter time. It's easier for them to follow up. That's a part of my experiment for the coming year. I am continuing to write one of my series as full length novels, but the others are really more suited to short works anyway. So I'm planning to do a lot more short works.

Camille


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> I will say it out loud:
> 
> The idea that marketing works is also a fallacy.


I've been wondering about that. Logic says that if marketing works, tradpubs would be marketing more, rather than cut back marketing and dumping the marketing load onto their midlist authors. Sure, publishers will do marketing for their top earners, but if you look at what those authors do, it's almost always all of these: book tour, talk shows, maybe TV spots, newspaper ads. That's it. Then they go back to their cubby holes and write the next book. That's what I'm seeing anyway among my favorite authors.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> This is an interesting bit of info: I keep hearing that novels sell better than shorter works, but I just haven't found it's so. At all.
> 
> And that can be a destructive myth, if it leads people to set aside those shorter works and struggle over a novel, which may not even be their most efficient length.


Do you think this might also depend on genres? When I read suspense/thrillers or historical I don't like to read short works (i.e. anything under 60K words). In fact 60K is dangerously sounding like the Love Inspirational line from HQN which caps off at about 60K words and comes in little featherweight paperbacks that they publish about 3-4 per month in many genres.

However, if I'm reading contemporary or even some mysteries, I'm totally happy with 60K words if the story is perfect and wonderful and all that jazz.

OTOH, keeping in mind that when people say "novel" it could be only 40K words as opposed to the usual 80K-100K that tradpub prefers as full length, I can see how it would definitely be faster to write half a book 

Then again it's the storytelling, IMO. If you can tell a great story in 60K, why use more words?



daringnovelist said:


> Now... one of the reasons I think my novels sell less well is simply because it's a long time between books in the same series. With novellas and novelettes, you can hit the audience with more books in a shorter time. It's easier for them to follow up. That's a part of my experiment for the coming year. I am continuing to write one of my series as full length novels, but the others are really more suited to short works anyway. So I'm planning to do a lot more short works.
> 
> Camille


This I totally agree with. And I had a surprising discovery as a reader. I have some of CJ Lyons eBooks on my iPad, and I just assumed that since she is writing Thrillers/Suspense that these are full length novels (I was guessing 80K). Weeelllll.... I was at B&N browsing the shelves looking for something to read (yeah, I know, I should be writing LOL) and I came across one of her latest novels that is now traditionally published and was shocked at how teeny tiny the book is compared to other suspense novels by tradpub authors.

http://www.amazon.com/Hollow-Bones-Special-Caitlyn-Tierney/dp/1250015375/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379973699&sr=8-1&keywords=cj+lyons
Mass Market Paperback: 304 pages
Publisher: Minotaur Books; 1 edition (August 27, 2013)
Language: English
Product Dimensions: 4.1 x 6.7 inches

4.1"x6.7" is TINY. The Amazon listing of 304 pages include front and back matter. I checked the book and from Chapter 1 to the end, it was only 294 pages.

Does anyone know how many words are in this book? I definitely want to know!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Now... one of the reasons I think my novels sell less well is simply because it's a long time between books in the same series. With novellas and novelettes, you can hit the audience with more books in a shorter time. It's easier for them to follow up.


I think that's part of it. I think the biggest part, though is that my novellas are all in a numbered, sequential series, whereas my novels are not. Also, the first one is perma-free.


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> This is an interesting bit of info: I keep hearing that novels sell better than shorter works, but I just haven't found it's so. At all.
> 
> And that can be a destructive myth, if it leads people to set aside those shorter works and struggle over a novel, which may not even be their most efficient length.
> 
> ...


I'm going to give this a shot too. I don't know about you all, but for me, novels take almost exponentially longer to write, revise, and edit for their size than my shorter works do. (I don't know if that makes sense -- I mean, if a 10K book can be written/revised/finished in 1 month, you would think a 90K book could be written/revised/published in 9 months, but my novels tend to take 3 years all the same, lol!) But anyway, I doubt they are exponentially easier to sell and market though, especially when readers get itchy about a reasonably high novel price (for a newbie like me, anyway), which makes me wonder about the payoff.

So I'm still releasing a full-length novel about this time next year, but between now and then, I hope to have out 2-3 more novelette/novella-sized books. So the novel will make my 5th release. And then I'll make my short story perma-free. I also think by my 5th release, readers might not balk too much at a $5 novel anymore... or if they do, I'll have shorter/cheaper works for them to try first.

Well, that's my plan anyway.

As for the topic of this thread, I am nowhere near a "ton of books" to worry about this yet (which is not to say I don't worry though, lol!). Ask me again next year.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> DWS says you have to have 20 out to be considered a professional.


LOL, good to know he doesn't see me as a professional. Happily, I disagree.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't think I've ever heard Dean say you need 20 out to be a professional...  He does believe that you can't really get an idea of someone's long-term career until they've written at least ten novels, from what he's said, but part of that is that a bookseller friend of his told him he wasn't a career pro writer until he had at least ten novels under his belt, so I think the story gets conflated with what Dean actually believes sometimes.

Anyway, I have about 30 titles out (mostly collections and short stories, only 3 novels) and make anywhere from 200-400 a month. Not exactly paying the rent money yet. (I was getting over 1k a month when I was regularly releasing things, but I haven't been lately and my sales have slid down a lot).  Right now I'm writing a bunch of stuff and hoping to be able to release at least a novel a month next year and four or five short story collections. I have a feeling that will jump my income back up over the 1k mark, but who knows? No guarantees.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JanThompson said:


> Do you think this might also depend on genres?


Absolutely. But less so than people might think. I think that the real difference is that in certain genres, books that meet certain criteria (including length) have an unnatural boost in sales that have to do with hitting a very predictable audience.

That's the thing about the best seller audience. It's actually not a majority audience, but it's a lucrative audience because they tend to want a standardized product, and tend to follow trends. They like long books.



> 4.1"x6.7" is TINY. The Amazon listing of 304 pages include front and back matter. I checked the book and from Chapter 1 to the end, it was only 294 pages.


That is not tiny at all! That's standard Mass Market Paperback size. (That size is not available to POD - strictly high volume mass market.)

How many words on a page varies greatly at any size. On a mass market paper back, I've seen anything from 200-600 words per page. But the average seems to be about 275-375.

For reference: Sue Grafton's "S is for Silence" (one of those moderately fat best sellers in the mystery genre) is 350 pages with relatively dense type. Which would put it at over 100k. Pretty hefty.

Given that it's a novel if it's over 40k (Though most novels are 60k or over) that's a big book -- but it's a thriller as much as a mystery.

For reference, here are some Christie books: The Sittaford Mystery, 65,000. A Carribean Mystery, 52,000. At Bertram's Hotel, 62,000.

These are not novellas. These are novels. Novellas are what Rex Stout used to write (and collect them into trilogies) -- anywhere from 17.5k to 39k. Novelettes are long short stories -- about 7,500-17,499 words.

Camille


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> Right now I'm writing a bunch of stuff and hoping to be able to release at least a novel a month next year and four or five short story collections. I have a feeling that will jump my income back up over the 1k mark, but who knows? No guarantees.


I noticed my sales dropped way down when I stopped releasing anything new because I was too busy in my day job. I'm working on getting something out every couple of weeks at the moment, and I think I need to eliminate my other SF pen name so all those books are listed under one name.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> LOL, good to know he doesn't see me as a professional. Happily, I disagree.


Actually, the number was ten, and that number came from a bookseller friend. When DWS was first published, he found his bookseller friend was not impressed. He called Dean a "neo-pro." Dean asked him when he would stop being a Neo-Pro and be a REAL Pro. The bookseller said "Ten." So Dean wrote and got published ten books, and his friend gave him the respect -- also Dean realized after ten books he understood why the guy felt that way.

Camille


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## NicWilson (Apr 16, 2011)

I've got four novels out, five short story collections, and one nonfiction collection. So far I've seen my sales increase a bit, but they've always been very low. Of course, I've done hardly any kind of advertising, and for the most part, they're niche concepts. I'm hoping that once I get number five out next month, they'll sustain themselves a bit better. After all, I'm running out of older work to revise, and have only so much time for getting together new work... Glad to know the big-shelf bump isn't automatic, though. I'd wonder what I'm doing wrong.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

Well, just one dozen and change.

I'm happy when I sell each of my titles, even if just one copy. They don't make me much money, but I like putting them out there.

I find the real money lies in writing eBooks for people that think _they'll _make a lot of money. I've made a lot of money that way so far this year; I don't think they have.


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## Jason Varrone (Feb 5, 2012)

I have five short stories, a collection of those five, a short nonfiction title, and a novella (perma-free) and novel within a series. The second novel in that series is on the way this December, and the third will follow next June. All my titles are in the fantasy genre. And I make...nada. Hardly anything at all. It's frustrating, to say the least. The aggravation of having to handle all aspects of publishing, the expenses associated with cover design, editing, and time spent formatting, all that money gone in a flash with little to no reciprocating income.

Is it worth it? Why don't I just quit and...go watch TV...or discover a love of knitting...or join Americorps?

And then I sit down and write, and two hours pass, and it's like I just sat down. During those two hours I am more at peace than I am at any point in the day. I smile a lot, which is odd because some people tell me I don't smile enough during the day. I laugh. I see my characters experience emotion. I see characters I created live life, or die, or croak in pain, or roar in delight as they draw their longsword and charge ahead to vanquish their enemy.

I know why I do this. I do it because, if I were to die tomorrow, I won't be able to take my money with me, but I can take away the memories and experience of doing something I love with every fiber of my soul. I do it because my kids think its cool their dad writes books and has an Amazon author page with his picture on it. I do it because, when I'm gone, there will be a little piece of me left.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Also, I suspect that selling your books on multiple sites does a lot more to keep the sales regular than most of us think, even if 80% or more of the sales go to Amazon.


This has been one of my arguments. I do not recall where I saw the number, but I was told that it takes something like 5 or 7 impressions before a person will actually buy. The more stores you have your book in, the better the chances for those impressions - and I suspect that Amazon is fast becoming the "Oh I saw this great book today, i will go to Amazon and buy it" even if people saw it at B&N or Apple, or etc.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> I don't think I've ever heard Dean say you need 20 out to be a professional... He does believe that you can't really get an idea of someone's long-term career until they've written at least ten novels, from what he's said, but part of that is that a bookseller friend of his told him he wasn't a career pro writer until he had at least ten novels under his belt, so I think the story gets conflated with what Dean actually believes sometimes.





daringnovelist said:


> Actually, the number was ten, and that number came from a bookseller friend. When DWS was first published, he found his bookseller friend was not impressed. He called Dean a "neo-pro." Dean asked him when he would stop being a Neo-Pro and be a REAL Pro. The bookseller said "Ten." So Dean wrote and got published ten books, and his friend gave him the respect -- also Dean realized after ten books he understood why the guy felt that way.
> 
> Camille


Ah. Well, I'm glad Dean earned his friend's respect, but whether you have 20, 10, or 1, you're a professional when you act act/think like one.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> Ah. Well, I'm glad Dean earned his friend's respect, but whether you have 20, 10, or 1, you're a professional when you act act/think like one.


I believe the point was that writers with ten novels would probably still be writing for years to come, while those with one or two rarely got that far. At least in the trade-published days.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Edward M. Grant said:


> I believe the point was that writers with ten novels would probably still be writing for years to come, while those with one or two rarely got that far. At least in the trade-published days.


I'm sure getting ten books out back in the day took a lot of work/gumption.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> That is not tiny at all! That's standard Mass Market Paperback size. (That size is not available to POD - strictly high volume mass market.)
> 
> How many words on a page varies greatly at any size. On a mass market paper back, I've seen anything from 200-600 words per page. But the average seems to be about 275-375.
> 
> ...


All good points! Yes, I was surprised when I found out that 60K is not the minimum novel length. For years I've been targeting more than 60K to make the novel cut LOL! If I had known... Oh well. Water under the bridge 

I saw that CJ Lyons' book was marked Mass Market, but what surprised me was that she didn't write a longer book as other thrillers do. AFter all her slogan is "Thriller with Heart" so I just focused on the "thriller" and as a reader of the genre, I expected 90-100K. Had I known they were more Romantic Suspense, I wouldn't have expected more than 70K.

I've noticed tradpub publishers sometimes publish an anthology of novellas in one book by 3-5 authors. I heard recently from a writer that her novella has to be 25K to fit into the multi-author book. I didn't ask how many authors were commissioned, or whether the publisher gave them the specs. But I like the idea of a 25K novella. I can do that in a way shorter time than my hefty tome LOL.

Grafton's books are big. Likewise books by Brad Meltzer or David Baldacci or Michael Koryta - over 400 pages long in hardcover sizes.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Monique said:


> I'm sure getting ten books out back in the day took a lot of work/gumption.


According to Michael Connelly and Jeffery Deaver it takes them 8-10 months to write one book and that's not including editorial revisions. So in the tradpub world, generally it would take 10 years to write 10 books. My guess is that it's not because the authors can't handle more books, but because the publishers can't. They publish many books with many overlapping deadlines, and each book has multiple editorial rounds. In selfpub, the fences are down.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I think that's part of it. I think the biggest part, though is that my novellas are all in a numbered, sequential series, whereas my novels are not. Also, the first one is perma-free.


I have a series of four novellas with branded covers, the first perma free, and haven't sold a copy since February. The perma free limps along at about one download a day. Review requests seem to go into a black hole and no promo sites will go near it. I've pretty much let it go to seed. Action comedy doesn't seem to sell well ...


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2013)

ChrisWard said:


> I have a series of four novellas with branded covers, the first perma free, and haven't sold a copy since February. The perma free limps along at


Boy, you have a lot of books listed as free right now!


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Hey… c’mere.
No, no, no. Right here. 
Look… Mondays suck for me too, alright? I’m hearing you. I don’t know what it is about the ‘day’ as I haven’t had to go to a J O B since May. Even so, no matter how kick a** my previous week was, no matter how awesome my weekend was, Mondays… well, they mentally suck. 

You’ve been around the block, Nathalie- just a glance at your post count says that.  I’m not saying anything you don’t already know. I’m just saying that I hear you.
As far as answering your question, well, I got nothing- I don’t have the volume count to make a valid call, the other posters have commented on that. 

My comment? Well, I’m well aware of the angst of Mondays, that’s all. 
And… as you probably know… Tuesdays and the rest of the week are better. One crapola day out of seven ain’t so bad, y’know. 
So Happy Tuesday bayybee!


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I have two collections, plus 16 individual titles of the 17 stories in those collections.
I also have 4 independent novelettes, 1 very short parody, and 1 non-fiction title.
My 8-episode series is available as 14 books (individual episodes, 2-book packages, omnibus issues).

All told, I have 38 books. My short stories and collections only sell a few copies each month. My two biggest sellers at my $9.99 omnibus and my $0.99 parody. Go figure.


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## FMH (May 18, 2013)

avwrite said:


> Really helpful advice! I also agree the first book free in a series works. I've seen some steady results (though not like the numbers you have yet as I only have 2 books in the series and I'm about the publish my third). I'm targeting a 6 book total on that series.
> 
> One thing I have to say though, at least for a first book free in a series, is it takes time (as you stated). People download these books, but they might not get to them months later, especially if they got it from Bookbub or some other ad site. Once they do get to it though, and they like it, they'll keep buying the next ones.
> 
> Patience is key.


Yes, it wasn't until I finished the fourth of the series and then put them all together as a bundle that sales really went up. The freebie went up, too - I think because they checked out what came after. Patience is key... and reworking your package until it hits the sweet spot.


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## Jason Blacker (May 20, 2011)

I have 65 titles out right now. 

80% short stories and collections. 20% novellas and novels.

I sell less than one hundred copies per month across all my 
titles. I have 4 names I write under, and I've been underwhelming
myself for over a year now.

I release at least one novel per month but I don't see that much
of a bump to be honest.

Not sure what the hell is going on. Anyway, can anyone beat this
paucity of sales?


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## dotx (Nov 4, 2010)

Jason Blacker said:


> I have 65 titles out right now.
> 
> 80% short stories and collections. 20% novellas and novels.
> 
> ...


Have you tried doing something different? Like picking a couple of your books and getting pro covers for them? Or setting up a giveaway or a blog tour for a book? Or paid ads? I'm just wondering if it's a question of "keep writing" or if it's best to try something new for the next book (or the books that are already out).


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## FMH (May 18, 2013)

dotx said:


> Have you tried doing something different? Like picking a couple of your books and getting pro covers for them?


I like his covers...


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## Jason Blacker (May 20, 2011)

dotx said:


> Have you tried doing something different? Like picking a couple of your books and getting pro covers for them? Or setting up a giveaway or a blog tour for a book? Or paid ads? I'm just wondering if it's a question of "keep writing" or if it's best to try something new for the next book (or the books that are already out).


I've used pro covers. I've done giveaways. I've had a small blog tour. I've done paid ads.
I have perma frees and I'm on all markets. I've tried several different genres.

I don't know if it's writing more or that I just haven't gotten lucky yet 

I appreciate the helpful suggestions. Thanks!


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## Jason Blacker (May 20, 2011)

F.M.Hopkins said:


> I like his covers...


Thanks. I'm happy with most of my covers too.

The problem with covers is that sometimes it's subjective. We can all generally
spot a reasonably good cover, but an outstanding one, that becomes suggestive.

I've also seen books with crap covers selling very well, so I don't know the answer.

I'm trying to use covers that are reasonably good and I think they are, but at my
lack of success, and proliferation, I've gotta keep costs low too


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Jason Blacker said:


> I've used pro covers. I've done giveaways. I've had a small blog tour. I've done paid ads.
> I have perma frees and I'm on all markets. I've tried several different genres.
> 
> I don't know if it's writing more or that I just haven't gotten lucky yet
> ...


What are the genres of your books? I can't really tell by glancing at your covers....


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JanThompson said:


> All good points! Yes, I was surprised when I found out that 60K is not the minimum novel length. For years I've been targeting more than 60K to make the novel cut LOL! If I had known... Oh well. Water under the bridge
> 
> I saw that CJ Lyons' book was marked Mass Market, but what surprised me was that she didn't write a longer book as other thrillers do. AFter all her slogan is "Thriller with Heart" so I just focused on the "thriller" and as a reader of the genre, I expected 90-100K. Had I known they were more Romantic Suspense, I wouldn't have expected more than 70K.


So you've confirmed it's 70k? It's possible, but that would be really super low word density for a 295 page mass market book (around 230 words per page). Average for 295 pages should be in the 90-100k range.

Camille


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## dotx (Nov 4, 2010)

Jason Blacker said:


> Thanks. I'm happy with most of my covers too.
> 
> The problem with covers is that sometimes it's subjective. We can all generally
> spot a reasonably good cover, but an outstanding one, that becomes suggestive.
> ...


I didn't mean the covers were bad. I just meant sometimes you need to try something else and getting pro covers could be one of those things you try.


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## Jason Blacker (May 20, 2011)

dotx said:


> I didn't mean the covers were bad. I just meant sometimes you need to try something else and getting pro covers could be one of those things you try.


No worries. I didn't suspect you were suggesting my covers sucked


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> So you've confirmed it's 70k? It's possible, but that would be really super low word density for a 295 page mass market book (around 230 words per page). Average for 295 pages should be in the 90-100k range.
> 
> Camille


No, that was my guess ("I wouldn't have expected more than 70K") - I didn't think it could be more than 70K bc it had comparable font size and number of pages as the HQN line of Love Inspired Suspense novels which have a fixed word count of between 55K-60K. I added 10K for good measure. I would be thrilled (no pun intended) if the novel was close to 100K words, but when I put that novel side by side with the other trade paperback novels which were larger and thicker (but had same font size) and whose word count I knew, I thought "Hollow Bones" was smaller and thinner. I would like to be totally wrong!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I've been intensely curious about this question as well. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the conventional self-publishing plan, but is it a sure thing? Step one, step two, step three, , profit?

I'd like to think it's that simple. Still, I'd prefer to hear more stories to the contrary if they're out there! Is there some Hugh Howey lookalike who's inexplicably not selling?


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## DevinSGraves (Sep 24, 2013)

Well, Cherise Kelley certainly put it succinctly and articulately. Quite astute, and the first line speaks volumes: It is a fallacy that more books out = more money in.

This thread has been a very interesting read, but there is one element someone pointed out that Cherise didn't mention, and that's promotion: glorious and shameless and tastefully gratuitous promotion. Of course, if the readers feel the quality is not up to par, then all the promotion in the world might never be enough.

To recap the gist of what Cherise said, she highlighted these 4 things: the cover, the book description, the level of editing and the quality of writing, but then there are also the X factors: 1. Is your work being promoted by yourself or others? 2. Will your work be discovered? And 3. Do the readers like it, and how willing are they to buy more of your work, as well as recommend you to fellow readers? Can't forget the power of the word of mouth! And it's free.

I certainly hope to have some success, or eventual success (whenever I somehow manage to complete a project). But I never knew Mondays were also bad for self-published authors. Mondays just seem to be not so good in general. Oh, and it's generally also the worst day for restaurants, too. On top of that, I wish everyone that hasn't been too successful much luck, and to keep fighting the good fight.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

JanThompson said:


> No, that was my guess ("I wouldn't have expected more than 70K") - I didn't think it could be more than 70K bc it had comparable font size and number of pages as the HQN line of Love Inspired Suspense novels which have a fixed word count of between 55K-60K. I added 10K for good measure. I would be thrilled (no pun intended) if the novel was close to 100K words, but when I put that novel side by side with the other trade paperback novels which were larger and thicker (but had same font size) and whose word count I knew, I thought "Hollow Bones" was smaller and thinner. I would like to be totally wrong!


Here's a quicker (and more accurate) way to test: Open the book to a page which is full of text (i.e. not the beginning or end of a chapter, not a page full of dialog). Count the number of lines on the page. Count the number of words in three or four of the full lines to find the average number of words per line.

Compare these numbers (instead of page count or thickness -- which can be incredibly deceiving) to the book you are trying to compare it too. This won't give you the actual word count, but you will be able to see if one book has more words per page than the other.

Now, there are a number of elements that also affect real word count and perceive length: is there a lot of dialog, and are the chapters short? Both of these can lower the word count, because they leave a lot of white space. Twenty page chapters vs. five page chapters, all by themselves, can change the word count by 10-20 percent.

Also, very tight writing can pack more plot into a story, which makes it seem like the story is longer. There may be more events and details per word than a wordier styled book.

Camille


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## draconian (Jun 7, 2013)

Jason Blacker said:


> I release at least one novel per month ...


Say what?
At least one novel a month? 
Most people seem to take that long just for editing and proofreading. Not to mention time to think of a new story with good characters, plot twists and originality.
How do you find the time to write a novel a month, and more?


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

draconian said:


> Say what?
> At least one novel a month?
> Most people seem to take that long just for editing and proofreading. Not to mention time to think of a new story with good characters, plot twists and originality.
> How do you find the time to write a novel a month, and more?


The 'how quickly do you write' convo never really ends well around here, but I will just point out that he didn't say he wrote a novel a month, but rather that he releases a book a month. That could mean he has a backlist, or writes and publishes in cycles, etc.

As for the 'time to think of a new story' bit, for myself, I always have a story fully fleshed out and plotted and ready to go as soon as I finish a current project. I have a calendar file I call 'Daily Concepts', and every day I jot down a quick idea, could be a line long, could be a paragraph. Sometimes its a whole premise, sometimes its a character or a plot twist or just something I think would make an interesting piece of worldbuilding or mythology, as long as its something, it doesn't matter what. Then every time I start a new book, I make sure I have something 'on deck' for after its done, so I pull open that file and just start pulling together different days. Anything that feels like it goes together or fits the same mood. Soon enough I have a basic premise, plot and rudimentary characters and world building. From there, I create a new project section on the private wiki I host for myself on my site. While I'm writing my current novel, I wind down after every day's writing session by spending an hour or half an hour adding to the next project's wiki page, building characters and the world/backstory, mapping out plot twists, compiling music that inspires me to think of it, etc. Totally non-effort intensive, I usually do it while watching TV or surfing the internet. It not only gets my next project completely mapped out and ready to go by the time I finish my current novel, it keeps me energized and eager to start it, and thus helps me power through writing my current project when its starting to wear on me.

Been using that method for a little over two years now and I've never had a lull in productivity since then. I take breaks between books now and then to keep from burning out, but never because I don't have another story idea waiting in the wings.


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## RaeC (Aug 20, 2013)

Plus some people are just efficient and _fast_. I know there are quite a few people who have no problem getting down 5k to 10k words a day once they've fleshed out their outline. There are a lot of contributing factors, including genre and acceptable book length, that can enable a person to produce a high-quality novel a month.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> But if you are writing commercial books, and nothing is working, then you need to look to the books themselves. (And part of the solution is to keep writing and try to get better at it -- forget your old books, write better new books.)


I agree with this part, but I think you should look at _everything_--marketing, covers, blurbs, you name it. I would say this holds for anyone, regardless of how well you're doing. Skill is only one part of it. I know better writers than me who sell fewer copies, and there are worse writers who blow me out of the water. Luck is a big part of it and you can increase your odds of being lucky by trying different things.

All things being equal, better writers will sell more copies, but all things are not, and never will be, equal.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I agree with this part, but I think you should look at _everything_--marketing, covers, blurbs, you name it. I would say this holds for anyone, regardless of how well you're doing. Skill is only one part of it. I know better writers than me who sell fewer copies, and there are worse writers who blow me out of the water. Luck is a big part of it and you can increase your odds of being lucky by trying different things.
> 
> All things being equal, better writers will sell more copies, but all things are not, and never will be, equal.


That's what the "and nothing is working" part meant. Assuming you've already done that. Then you have to look at the books themselves.

And even there, quality does not equal success. Quality is often a niche product. People may think they are writing "commercial" fiction, but it's really literary, and it's never going to sell well no matter how you package it, or flog it or polish it. Those "worse writers" who blow you out of the water? They may not be worse writers -- they just may be better at giving the audience what they want.

But odds are, if someone is actually trying to write commercial fiction, and they're not selling, they need to take a hard look at whether they really are writing what the audience wants. Because if you're writing what the audience wants, then all techniques work.

Camille


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> Here's a quicker (and more accurate) way to test: Open the book to a page which is full of text (i.e. not the beginning or end of a chapter, not a page full of dialog). Count the number of lines on the page. Count the number of words in three or four of the full lines to find the average number of words per line.


Good idea. I'll do that the next trip to the bookstore.

Now, if Amazon requires authors to list word count in addition to page count, I would be a happy reader indeed.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2013)

draconian said:


> Say what?
> At least one novel a month?


You've always got to have folders with half an idea and partial outlines. These are the best things to work on when you can't stand what you're working on.

Plus every time you open your main writing folder you'll be reminded of those little projects, thus keeping them in your mind where the gears will turn and the lights will flash; and one day you might just have something new on your hands.


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## DavidGil (May 16, 2013)

I'm far from an expert obviously, as my published titles show.

With that in in mind though, my thoughts are as follows when it comes to the amount of titles you have available and sales:

1) More titles = a higher chance that your books will show up in search engines or that people will wander across your work.

2) If people like the book they read, then they may go out and buy the rest of your work.

But all of this hinges on luck. You can be the best writer in the world and have no sales. You can be the worst writer in the world and have sales. And I don't mean to imply that only rubbish writing sells. It's just to highlight that luck is a very important factor (and I perhaps over-exaggerated too, but you get the idea). One thing I do wish for though is a way to see how many times your books are viewed on Amazon. Currently, I have no idea if people are even looking at my work. I imagine others are in the same boat and it would tell us if we should tweak the keywords etc.

Without luck, you probably won't get discovered no matter how many titles you put out and their quality. And on the flip side, there are those who release one book that get discovered and sell a lot with barely any promotion, though that's quite rare.

I realise I've likely just said what everyone knows already, or restated what's already been said, but . . . *shrugs* So, I guess the only solution really is to carry on writing, though I know how discouraging a lack of sales can be. But hey, that's what other writers are here for partly, to encourage people not to give up and such.

Oh and please don't remind me of folders that contain ideas and incomplete works.  I have so many abandoned projects . . .

Jan,

That's a good idea about forcing authors to mention the word count. I do that myself, partly because of my work's length, but also because it's fair to readers regardless of whether it's a novel or a short story I'm selling. The problem though, while I've managed to avoid it myself, is that people can still complain about a story's length even if you clearly state it. This means product descriptions/titles aren't being fully read, or people just don't care even though they were warned. Obviously, it doesn't matter too much if people don't read the descriptions for what they're buying because the fault is with them, but the one star they may leave could damage you. I've seen it happen a lot while browsing unfortunately.  So, while it may help a lot of readers out, there will still be people complaining about a work's length.

Still, at least it may serve to minimise complaints.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

DavidGil said:


> Jan,
> 
> That's a good idea about forcing authors to mention the word count. I do that myself, partly because of my work's length, but also because it's fair to readers regardless of whether it's a novel or a short story I'm selling. The problem though, while I've managed to avoid it myself, is that people can still complain about a story's length even if you clearly state it. This means product descriptions/titles aren't being fully read, or people just don't care even though they were warned. Obviously, it doesn't matter too much if people don't read the descriptions for what they're buying because the fault is with them, but the one star they may leave could damage you. I've seen it happen a lot while browsing unfortunately.  So, while it may help a lot of readers out, there will still be people complaining about a work's length.
> 
> Still, at least it may serve to minimise complaints.


Thanks, David. That's nice of you to post your word count. I don't know about "forcing authors" but I do agree that people don't always read the blurb, so counts help. I've noticed that sometimes Amazon puts the blurb right next to the thumbnail, and sometimes it's below the thumbnail. Maybe consistency of placement on the page might help. I gather it's an Amazon thing.

As a reader, I'm guilty of sometimes not reading the blurb or check the page count myself. I go straight to sampling and if I like it, I buy it. It happened to me the other day and I can't remember how much I paid for the non-fiction book which turned out to be shorter than expected. If I had read the blurb properly and scrolled down, I would have seen the number of pages, and for now, it's all Amazon is giving me.

IMO the number of pages can be misleading. The page count could be 400-500 pages but if the print book dimension was 4x7" that would have inflated the page count. Truly if the same book was 6x9" the number of page count would be much lower. Word count doesn't mislead...


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

If this is a thread hijack, so be it!
I think word counts, page counts or something like this is an important topic. 

I got snookered by an author who pub’d a short story titled “Stephen King”. It was for a buck or something. I’m not going to bother pulling up my Kindle reader and go over my library to find it, b/c I’m speaking right now as a reader. And as one, I can easily be accused of lazy and apathetic towards the needs of the authors yadda yadda  BFD- I spent my money, and my time on the short story…

Here’s the thing:
I DID read the pg count. Yet… when I bought the ‘book’ okay… the Title… the short story ran either half or less than the posted page count. The rest was back matter: what other stuff the author had in the market, a couple of free samples etc…
Come to think of it, there might have been a Kb post on this topic this past Spring or early Summer. 

Here’s the bottom line: the author ripped me off.

No, no, no… explanations on her part are useless at this point. I did not return the book, and the story was good. She’s got a great talent. I actually posted a review. In it, I said something like great story, but too much back matter. 
She made thirty cents off me. And is lucky that I am such a lazy apathetic reader. Cuz if I could recall her name, I’d never touch her stuff again, no matter how swell it could be. 

She should have said in a way I saw that the short story was only half of the title’s contents.
Frankly, I believe her great story cost her career traction, But… that’s only my opinion.

Upshot?
I’m no programmer, but I think the ‘Zon could do a lot more for its readers in terms of content. I don’t think it would be a great stretch for them to have a area on the splash page for a title saying something about how long the work is. Relative to what? I dunno. But there could be a click on link that can tell a potential reader how thick the title would be in format A, B, or whatever. 

Yes, I know they’re doing something like this now—page counts next to a work’s title are prevalent. 

How ‘sum ever… my Kindle reading app doesn’t show ‘pages’ in the app, it shows a percentage and some sort of location number. 
I think they can make this issue work better.

Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they were working on it right now.


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## Jay Walken (Feb 7, 2013)

Not a whole lot of sales here, but I also write more mainstream books under a different name, and hardly promote my erotica. I find promoting erotica to be a difficult task.

Seven titles out on different platforms, and I think I'll get a few more out soon.


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## DavidGil (May 16, 2013)

JanThompson said:


> Thanks, David. That's nice of you to post your word count. I don't know about "forcing authors" but I do agree that people don't always read the blurb, so counts help. I've noticed that sometimes Amazon puts the blurb right next to the thumbnail, and sometimes it's below the thumbnail. Maybe consistency of placement on the page might help. I gather it's an Amazon thing.
> 
> As a reader, I'm guilty of sometimes not reading the blurb or check the page count myself. I go straight to sampling and if I like it, I buy it. It happened to me the other day and I can't remember how much I paid for the non-fiction book which turned out to be shorter than expected. If I had read the blurb properly and scrolled down, I would have seen the number of pages, and for now, it's all Amazon is giving me.
> 
> IMO the number of pages can be misleading. The page count could be 400-500 pages but if the print book dimension was 4x7" that would have inflated the page count. Truly if the same book was 6x9" the number of page count would be much lower. Word count doesn't mislead...


Fully agreed with this, Jan. As you say, page counts can be misleading. Word counts can't be. I'm guessing some readers may not be as well acquainted with word counts as authors are, as we know what defines flash fiction, a short story etc. but it should still help. At least when it's combined with page counts anyway, there's no real way a reader could rightfully complain because they'd have all the information before them.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Word counts mean nothing to most readers. 

Frankly, as a reader, I only care if the story satisfies me. If the novel is 40k words or 140k words, if I enjoyed it, the length really doesn't matter. As long as things say "short story" or "novella" or "novel" (though novel really is something I assume if there is nothing saying it is shorter than a novel), I don't care what the word count is. I don't even really look at page counts, either. If a book looks good to me, I buy it. Blurb, cover, etc are way more important than length.


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## DavidGil (May 16, 2013)

Yep, that's what it should come down to, Doomed. How a story makes you feel, regardless of length.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> I don't make a lot of money, and I have thirteen titles released (fourteen if you count the anthology I have a story in).
> 
> But....
> 
> ...


Camille,

I just wanted to say thank you. Those are some of the most honest words I have read in a long time.


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## ecg52 (Apr 29, 2013)

I have the four in my signature and 13 erotica under a pen name. I'm not getting rich. I'm not even making a living, can't quit the day job just yet. I spent a ton of money on promoting early last year and it did me little good. I do fairly well if I can put out a book (erotica) once a month. The others (below) spike when I add the next one. 

By fairly well I mean over $1K per month. But it's still not enough to live on and I can't always get one out every month. Without my other job, I'd be in trouble.

Most important to me is that I'm having fun.


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

If you were successful in the traditional world and allowed time to lapse before you chose to indie publish and or changed genres, the struggle to regain your sales is great.  I had 23 novels published by three publishers in up to eleven languages over twelve years traditionally.

Today I have a 21 book back list and 6, soon to be 7, new novels released between 6/2012 and the end of this month.  Sales are not where I would hope they would be and consistency is not there yet.  Last month is the first month where the new novels were measurably better in unit sales than the back list and the reviews on the new YA, suspense and NA books have been amazing.  I am so pumped about this next book as it is absolutely the best book I've ever written.

We don't market heavily or spend much money on marketing and sure it is frustrating to have a place like BookBub accept one of your books with five reviews but when the book has 20 to 30 and they are almost exclusively 5 stars they won't touch it.  And everyone gets the odd 1 and 2 star reviews.  But you know the product is good and with #30 releasing in another week that you've paid the dues and making progress.  You know when a teacher buys the first three in your YA time travel mystery series for her class that you're hitting the sweet spot and you just keep going.

Back to proofing and beta reader talking.


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## Stagewalker (May 19, 2011)

I guess twelve books with next to no sales would qualify me for this list.


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## Seanathin23 (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm at Five novels and a short story, I've made a little but not enough to quit my day job, following my wife out the county for vet school did that. Of course it also gave me lots of free time to test the idea that more books equals a chance at making a living. I'll have ten out by this time next year, or at least nine with a tenth off at the editors.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I have:

30 novels 

4 box sets (various combinations of some of said novels)

9 short stories

2 novellas 

I have done very well for myself on occasion, yes.  I had two five-figure dollar months this year.

Right now, however, I'm selling about 10 books a day across all titles, which is not enough to pay my bills. I also screwed up my estimated taxes, and I think owe the IRS all my savings. So, I'm on a path to run out of money. (*Cue up Aerosmith's "Livin' on the Edge."*)


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Just an update. I have 30 titles available. In October I sold 18 books. I think in November I'm on 14 so far. I've done very little marketing of late, though. I have limited free time so most of it right now is going into the writing. I'm not so concerned, though. I'm expecting a bit 2014, haha.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Fifteen books out - eleven novels, two novellas and two shorts. I sell between a hundred and a thousand books a month in Amazon US - it varies widely. But since I do absolutely no marketing, don't write series (save the two novellas), write across three or four genres, don't use pro covers, hardly ever touch my blog, etc etc it's probably not too shabby a result.

There is no doubt that writing more books will give you a good chance of making more sales - and it is literally my only strategy. The problem is that this is a very fickle industry. There are no guarantees. Marketing may be a better tool to achieve more sales, but again the results are going to be variable and I can't stand the thought of doing it. It strikes me as something between begging and boasting with an unhealthy dose of lying in the mix, and I don't like to do any of that. I guess I'll never be a salesman.

Having said all of that, I should point out that while there are strategies apart from marketing that I could use to boost sales - writing series, sticking to one genre, I won't do it. In the end I write what I want to write. So I'll stay in the low ranks and keep writing what I enjoy, and sales will come and go.

Cheers, Greg.


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## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

psychotick said:


> ... It strikes me as something between begging and boasting with an unhealthy dose of lying in the mix, and I don't like to do any of that...


So, you have nothing on offer you can honestly recommend?


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## TiffanyTurner (Jun 8, 2009)

I've been self-published since 2007. I've written 3 children's books now. I wish I could write faster, but it just takes longer since I slow down during the school year. For example, I spent the whole day working on report cards. I have been dabbling writing other genres, and worked on a novelette series. I've got a Time Travel Romance I'm working on. I think it just comes down to writing good books. Hugh once said in a thread that he tried different genres and stories before Wool took off. You just never know what people are going to go for. Getting out there and writing the good book only you can write will be the start. No product means no sales.

As far as success, I've been blogging about this off and on for a year. I sell mostly ebooks, which averages about 10 a month between all three children's books. Sometimes I'm able to do the Smashwords promo, and I did a permafree back in Jan. 2012 when it was still new. I had 8,000 downloads in a month. But then, free downloads aren't considered sales. They turned into about 25 sales of my second book. 

This year, I've released a third book in my children's series. I've been doing a lot of local book signings, and have sold out of my stock of books. It usually takes about a year to do that. So, annually I order about 50 of each book. I sell the paperbacks at book signings. Ebook sales tend to go up when my book is reviewed by a blogger, or there is another promotion. 

Not giving the day job up, but I am selling books. I have to claim my income once a year. I get the W-2s. But I have noticed that my sales have increased with a new release. So, I would say, series and serials sell better, and keep writing. The more books you have, the more you can sell. 

To add to the how many books written make you a professional: I heard an author mention at a writer's conference that it took her about 10 books before she made enough to give up her day job (teaching). Those were picture books. Justina Wilder and her husband had done about 20 books. I think the more books you write, the better you get at writing. So, later books are getting better. Eventually, that best selling book will emerge if you keep writing.

Something to think about: I heard Dali didn't like the melting clocks in his art. He did it as a lark. And it turned out to be the thing everyone liked. You never know until you try.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi cdvsmx5,

I like my books. I write them for me after all and I wouldn't write them if I didn't like them. From the reviews and feedback other people seem to like them as well for which I am grateful. But there is no way I could ever be comfortable marketing them or anything else.

It's probably a character flaw and it kicks me in the butt every so often. Job interviews are a pain for example. When I get asked why they should hire me I basically can't answer the question. Selling is a character skill and not everyone has it. Which can be a problem for the self pubber. But it's just the way I am.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Cherise, in her post on the first page, sums up the issue of mass=money. There are 4 assumptions that go with it (if not more). If those assumptions are not met then mass does not equal money.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Ha ha, even on a thread about selling few books and making very little money, I still manage to come in last.    or maybe that should be


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## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Hi cdvsmx5,...


The source of the term, marketing, is the farmer taking his produce to town where people are hungry. There is nothing inherently dishonest in satisfying the needs of others or offering to do so. Listing your work for purchase is the primary act of marketing. So, pull them down or cut the pretense if you want to avoid dishonesty.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

Hello all, I'm commenting on Tuesday, of course, and the topic has drifted, but just thought I'd chime in.

When I first published (I have 4 pen-names in 3 genres, 20 total published ebooks that are mostly novella length of 20k words) I made decent sales.  I took almost this entire year off from writing/publishing and they tanked.  I think I might've made 1k total including all outlets and all pen-names.  Not sure if it was the break in time or if the market has changed (again), but the bloom is definitely off the rose.

I don't really care, though.  As others have said, I'm going to write anyway, so why not share it?

I've never done any kind of smart marketing, my books have no links or back matter, my blog is mostly rambling, and my genres are niche.  So what?  Its a labor of love.  

I think if making a lot of money self-publishing is your only aim (and I don't know any actual writers like that at all, for most it seems we would just be pumped to be able to write full time) there are probably easier ways to make a buck--nowadays, anyway.

Good luck all!


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

psychotick said:


> It's probably a character flaw and it kicks me in the butt every so often. Job interviews are a pain for example. When I get asked why they should hire me I basically can't answer the question. Selling is a character skill and not everyone has it. Which can be a problem for the self pubber. But it's just the way I am.


When I have to do this--say, to write a blurb or do a blog interview or come up with a cool swag idea--I have to go into an entirely new mode. I call it putting on my Don Draper hat--after the Mad Men character? I hate selling & marketing as well, but IMO at least some of it is unavoidable if you're an author.


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

I've only got one book out (working on the sequel) and it's been doing decent sales wise. Granted, I haven't quit my day job over it, then again my day job is ghost writing, and before that I worked as a free lance writer and film critic; novelist would just be a natural progression.

I think a lot of the success I've seen (albeit minor when compared to the big boys) is from the fact that my genre is popular right now; apocalypse scenarios and the whole dystopian future thing, combined with the fact that I put a unique spin on the scenario, in my opinion at least. I don't know how long it'll be before I have "dozens" of books out, I hope to have the sequel completed soon, but I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity.


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## philstern (Mar 14, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> We hear often how a lot of books out make money. Sure thing! No worries! A breeze!
> Are there people around here who follow that idea that have dozens of books and make almost nothing?


I think a lot of us have become victims of our own expectations, myself included. I think the simple fact is that there are so, so many kindle books, and still a limited (as compared to the general reading public) kindle audience, and even a far more limited buying kindle audience (as opposed to those who just read freebies), that it's very hard to rise to the top. Or hit "critical mass", as someone else said.

Sure, some have. And i may someday. But in the meantime it is what it is. And that's better than sitting around, querying agents, and not being published at all.


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## Tim McGregor (Apr 2, 2013)

philstern said:


> I think a lot of us have become victims of our own expectations, myself included.


Well said, Phil. I'm loathe to admit it but I'm certainly guilty of that.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi cdvsmx5,

It's not the selling that I find hard. That's just a transaction and I don't have to be involved any further than writing my books and listing them. It's all the other stuff that goes with it. The advertising, promotion, salesmanship stuff. And to respond to Donna, all of that stuff is completely avoidable. I know - I avoid it. I probably pay the price for that.

Cheers, Greg.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

I think making money with books has less to do with how many you have and more to do with writing stuff that people actually want to read. If you have 100 books about pea farming in the winter, I doubt you'd make as much money as someone who did market research and wrote for the masses. Now, I know a lot of people think that writing to please the market is the death of creativity, but if you want to make decent money from writing, then that's kind of what you have to do. Sometimes, luck strikes and an obscure book becomes a best seller. But it doesn't happen often.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

KMatthew said:


> I think making money with books has less to do with how many you have and more to do with writing stuff that people actually want to read.


No, it's both.

You won't make much money with a hundred books people don't want to read. But most people will make more money with a hundred books people want to read than with one.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Edward M. Grant said:


> No, it's both.
> 
> You won't make much money with a hundred books people don't want to read. But most people will make more money with a hundred books people want to read than with one.


That is true, for the most part. There are still the out of the gate successes though.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

KMatthew said:


> That is true, for the most part. There are still the out of the gate successes though.


True, but most out-of-the-gate successes do really well for a limited period, and then disappear or come here to complain how bad their sales are these days.

You have to keep writing more books to retain the audience. It doesn't really matter how often you release and how many books you have, as long as you're actively writing new books.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I think you have to think about a few things that effect the amount of sales that are possible for certain books. Is it a popular genre? Is it a popular format (ie. series, trilogy)? Is it a popular length (novel versus novella etc.)?

My YA dystopia sells well because it's a trilogy, which is expected in that genre, the genre is popular to begin with, and there are three full-length books with a couple of novellas thrown in to enrich the story. Pretty much all the big players -- divergent, delirium etc -- follow this exact model. My books are fodder for the people obsessed with this genre who devour everything in the top 100 sub-cat. 

However, my YA horror is a novella, a standalone and the subject matter is more unusual (ie. not about vampires, witches, fae or werewolves) and I've only sold a handful of copies. There just aren't enough people out there wanting to read that story. Sure, I got plenty of downloads when it was free, but that's different. Freebie shoppers are often a different breed of reader and will try anything. I don't think it will ever sell a lot, but that's okay. I just wanted the story out there and I'm glad it has reached a few people at least. 

Writing in a niche is hard, but sometimes it works for indies, so keep building up a name and gathering a fan base. It only takes one book to hook someone. All you can do is your best. 

I wish my readers would click on my mailing list link. It's pitiful at the moment!


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

sarahdalton said:


> Writing in a niche is hard, but sometimes it works for indies, so keep building up a name and gathering a fan base. It only takes one book to hook someone. All you can do is your best.


Thanks for the encouragement. I write in a niche, so I'm glad to hear there's hope yet.


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