# Can men write romance?



## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

(I know we've discussed this some time in the past but I couldn't find it and I'd love some incite on this topic.)

I've been enjoying the romance genre for about a year. It started off as a study of what exactly was going on over there and I quickly embraced the style and approach. I set out to write my own romance, a sweet romance with some light sci fi and a HFN ending. Maybe even a trilogy with it. But then I heard women don't like male romance authors. I was sort of stunned, maybe I was naive thinking I could write what a woman wants to read in a romance. So I did some research:

I went through the current top 100 and not one male author(okay, Dean Koontz was in there for some reason...) and don't even get romance readers started on Nicholas Sparks. Now, I did find a few outliers out there but even they had gender neutral names or just flat out used female pen names. So I thought I'd ask the awesome ladies of KB a few questions:

Do you feel men can't capture what you are looking for in a romance book? 

Would you negatively judge a romance book if it has a males name on it?

If I go through with my romance novel, would you recommend a female pen name?


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Ryan Winfield seems to be doing well.  Check out his facebook page.....his book Jane's Melody hit the NYTimes list and he just signed with Atria. This guy knows how to market to women. Doesn't hurt that he's very tall, blond and good looking. He also has over 140k fans on his facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/ryanwinfield


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

Most women say no to this question but that doesn't seem to line up with what actually happens  I don't think any of us try to discriminate when we see a male name however, I think a lot of us do. I've had some bad experiences reading romance that was raunchy or just not "romantic" by male authors in the past and that does affect my buying choices whether I admit it or not.

When I'm scrolling through the lists looking for a new book to read, my subconscious is making tons of choices per second -

_No- I don't like books with those pink covers 
No- that has a sword on the front, too violent? 
No - that cover art looks homemade, etc. _

I'm not even aware of all the things I'm glossing over, disregarding or scrolling past. I just keep going until something jumps out at me. Usually it's something that fits genre expectations of the kind of books I know I enjoy. Mainly romance, a couple on the cover, nothing too explicit (there's a fine line for most between what we see as sexy vs. raunchy)

I think that's why most male authors use a pen name or go for the initials. That way the name won't throw off the casual buyer before they even give you a chance.

Ryan Winfield is an example of someone who's doing it however, his books don't really fit the usual romance genre either. I would actually place him closer to the Nicholas Sparks type because his books deal with heavier themes like drug abuse, death, homelessness, etc. It seems to be working for him though which is great.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Matt Ryan said:


> I went through the current top 100 and not one male author(okay, Dean Koontz was in there for some reason...) and don't even get romance readers started on Nicholas Sparks. Now, I did find a few outliers out there but even they had gender neutral names or just flat out used female pen names. So I thought I'd ask the awesome ladies of KB a few questions:
> 
> Do you feel men can't capture what you are looking for in a romance book?
> 
> ...


Great questions, Matt. Personally, I don't care if it's a man's or woman's name on the cover, but my guess is that a fair amount of women might make a flash judgment in that regard and it probably comes down to the idea that they think a man can't quite capture the emotional dimensions to the degree they expect in a romance. Does that make sense? If we were more used to seeing male authors in romance, that bias would lessen.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if there were actually more guys than we know of who write romance but use a pen name.


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## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

If women can write in a man's point of view, then men can certainly write from a woman's.  But, I would definitely use a pen name!!


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> You know, I wouldn't be surprised if there were actually more guys than we know of who write romance but use a pen name.


There are. You'd be surprised.

Matt, like the others have said, we don't want to admit it, but there is a subtle bias against romances outwardly penned by men unless and until we know we're not going to be burned. (Like Minx said, a lot of "romances" I've read by men were just outright raunchy or were not at all what I would deem romantic -- remember that your readers are women so you need to go for the female fantasy, not the male fantasy.)

It's not that men can't write romance. You just don't want to give readers a reason to skip over your book without them even taking a chance. So a female pen name or initials is often the way to go.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I admit to a bias against male Romance writers (I don't mean writers of romantic tragedy, like Nicholas Sparks). It has been my experience that males tend to focus on the physical rather than the emotional arc of the characters (this is true in a lot of genres, not just Romance). This isn't an absolute by any means, but I'd think twice about buying a Romance by a male unless it had been positively reviewed by reviewers I trust like Dear Author or SBTB.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Isn't June Devereaux a male?  (Could be wrong, so don't start rumors)
I'm sure there are plenty of men using female pen names and doing quite well. There is probably the same bias as we as women have with writing sci-fi.
I do think it's not a bias that can't be overcome, and is even on its way out among readers.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

If you are a true writer, you can write anything, this is my take on the subject....


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Isn't June Devereaux a male? (Could be wrong, so don't start rumors)


If so, then she's a very realistic-looking cross-dresser.
http://jude-deveraux.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_Devereaux


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

People can write whatever they want, provided they can find the right voice and are able to do the story justice. As mentioned, I would personally use a pen name.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Amanda Brice said:


> If so, then she's a very realistic-looking cross-dresser.
> http://jude-deveraux.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_Devereaux


Haha, yeah. Guess I'm confused.


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## [email protected] (Apr 8, 2012)

If you use a male author name you will be fighting an uphill battle. Many male authors before you have left a lot of battle scars. As mentioned above, too many times the male writer will focus on the physical and not the romantic. Or focus on the wrong physical, ie describe the heroine in great depth (spending way too much time describing the raunchy) and gloss over the physical attributes of the hero. 

Make your life easy and pick a gender neutral pen name.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Is it not true that men write the greatest love songs?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> There are. You'd be surprised.
> 
> Matt, like the others have said, we don't want to admit it, but there is a subtle bias against romances outwardly penned by men unless and until we know we're not going to be burned. (Like Minx said, a lot of "romances" I've read by men were just outright raunchy or were not at all what I would deem romantic -- remember that your readers are women so you need to go for the female fantasy, not the male fantasy.)
> 
> It's not that men can't write romance. You just don't want to give readers a reason to skip over your book without them even taking a chance. So a female pen name or initials is often the way to go.


So, Amanda, are you a dude? I'm suspicious because the first letters of "Amanda" ....


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

LOL!


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## JKenney (Apr 1, 2013)

Matt Ryan said:


> Do you feel men can't capture what you are looking for in a romance book?
> 
> Would you negatively judge a romance book if it has a males name on it?
> 
> If I go through with my romance novel, would you recommend a female pen name?


My first instinct is No...mostly because male authors tend towards a plot focus, and romance readers are much more character focused. But I would not rule you out purely because of your gender.

A few male authors have written romance successfully...BUT mostly they were Gay men writing Gay Romance...But just like other women who write some Sci-fi I know that gender does not limit our creative impulses...

But there is a BIAS here. Many readers will just ignore a male author. Assuming they are going to be offensive or too male biased...

I would suggest a gender NEUTRAL name. Much like those of us chicks who write in the traditional male genres do...

Initials... is the easiest way to go. And viewed as less...misleading...


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> So, Amanda, are you a dude? I'm suspicious because the first letters of "Amanda" ....


That would be a good wink, wink, nudge, nudge pen name: *Aman*da Guy or *Aman*da *Boy*d.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

JKenney said:


> Initials... is the easiest way to go. And viewed as less...misleading...


And how far do you go? I know male romance authors who use stock photo of a woman to boot. I would think that might backfire if you go too far. That's why I agree that initials route is the best way to go.

Rowling did that with her latest book. She had a whole bio for her male pen name that was fake.


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## 72263 (Sep 10, 2013)

Of course men can write a good romance - just look at how many great romcom scripts are written by men! 

But I bet that if a publisher had the same story with emphasis on romance, they would put in Romance if it had been written by a woman (or a female penname) but in a different section if it had been written by a man/male penname.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

hey, this inspired me to take a look at my mailing list.

I have twice as many woman as men signed up (if I divide the "neutral" email addresses without names given by the same ratio).  So much for sci-fi being a guy's genre.
This mix always makes it tough to decide how to split the action/character ratio of my stories.

Miss Tee keeps bugging me to write a sci-fi romance but I wonder how the guys will feel about that. Seems almost like a genre jump.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Is The Bridges of Madison County considered a romance? Robert James Waller. 50 million+ copies sold and counting.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Is The Bridges of Madison County considered a romance?


No. Like Nicholas Sparks, it's a love story and actually quite tragic. Definitely a bittersweet ending, which contravenes the "happily ever after" or at least "happily for now" mandate of the romance genre.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

They do it all the time although they put a different label on it or else write under a pseudonym. It is one of the hangovers from the bad old days of gender specific publishing.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2013)

If men can't write romance, then women can't write science fiction or boys' adventure stories.  Which of course is just silly.

Romance is just as much a part of the male experience as it is of the female experience.  This idea that half of the human population can't understand or appreciate what it's like to be in love is absurd.  Most men probably bring a different perspective to the subject, but it's not something we're totally ignorant about (not all of us, anyway.  And there are plenty of women who are ignorant about these sorts of things too).

Gender stereotypes ... sigh.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> If men can't write romance, then women can't write science fiction or boys' adventure stories. Which of course is just silly.
> 
> Romance is just as much a part of the male experience as it is of the female experience. This idea that half of the human population can't understand or appreciate what it's like to be in love is absurd. Most men probably bring a different perspective to the subject, but it's not something we're totally ignorant about (not all of us, anyway. And there are plenty of women who are ignorant about these sorts of things too).
> 
> Gender stereotypes ... sigh.


THIS!

Discussions like this often come up in discussions about m/m romance. Who is better at writing gay characters, men or women?

Posing the question like that is unfair and untrue. The difference is not about the gender but about the story.
There are amazing Female fantasy and scifi authors (Robin Hobb, a neutral name based on the Tolkien lore, is one of them) and there will be amazing male authors "female genres".

It's like telling boys they can't play house with the girls because boys aren't supposed to play house, or to tell girls they can't play with trains because it's only for boys.

Really? Do we still discriminate that much?

And if you want to get around the problem that you think your name might scare them off, you can always use your initials. That's been done for decades.


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## ktashbury (Oct 10, 2013)

Here's a quickie guide for any (wo)men confused about how to write a romance novel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoiOnZ5otSo#t=27


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## MsTee (Jul 30, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Miss Tee keeps bugging me to write a sci-fi romance but I wonder how the guys will feel about that. Seems almost like a genre jump.


Ya know, for a second there, I thought you were talking about ME, but the name's different so OBVIOUSLY not. But I think I can agree with this Miss Tee person. They sound like they've got the right of things. Like, why aren't you writing SF Romance, Quiss? Just...why not? Why won't you write it? Please write it. Please...

I'll give you a cookie.



OP: A few weeks ago, avwrite (I think that's who it was) asked whether folks judge a book by an author's pen-name. There were a lot of, 'No way!'s, and I was a part of that group. But this new question has made me reconsider my answer from avwrite's post. Yes, as a die-hard Romance reader, I'm ashamed to say that the instant I see a male's name on the cover of a Romance, I go: 'Eehh, no thank you.' Minx Malone is so right about this. In theory we want to believe we're open-minded, but if left up to action, we engage in a lot of generalizations and judgement concerning books.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Is this a trick question? 

The OP used the word "can" -- you know, like "Can I get drink of water?" versus "May I get a drink of water?"

Or is this a male brain vs female brain question as in: Are men genetically capable of writing romance?

Here is my answer: *Yes, a man can write anything a woman can write.*

If a woman can writer thrillers, then a man can write romance.

[Various cravat memes deleted to protect those who are easily excited.]


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I have never heard of Ryan Winfield, nor have I ever come across his name on any of the sites I hang out or through browsing romance titles. Looking on amazon its filed under Literature and fiction > contemporary fiction > literary fiction > woman's fiction. So its not even filed under romance. Looking at goodreads folks file it under all kinds of stuff from women's fiction to new adult to romance. 

Someone I trust read it on there and they call it a romance, so I believe it. That means that a man can write "literary fiction" while writing romance and I don't think a woman would be filed under the same, it would just be romance eww cooties.  
And don't call Sparks romance, he does not want to be in that section. Not that his books are romance anyway, some of them would technically fall under it.

As far as if I would pick up a male romance writer. I'll have to ponder that. I am a long time romance reader across all sub genres and I haven't come across many. I have had bad experiences reading some that were written by men so that is clouding my opinion now. 

The advantage the OP has already is he has actually read the genre. 

I admit a bias when knowing its a man. Is it fair? Don't know. It's part experience reading them and also some of the comments I read by men a lot when it comes to romance. Even here on KB I read the sneering comments, be it about the covers, or how easy it is to write romance and often they confuse the romance genre with erotica. 

I think I would feel saver reading a man writing romance if he is with a publisher that knows romance. I don't want to be Nicholas Spark'ed at the end of the novel.  

M.L. Buchanan is a male writer successful with Sourcebooks. He writes military romance and I think many of his heroines are in the military. I haven't personally read him as I am not interested in military stuff but the reviews seem to be ok. He is obviously using letters for first name but not hiding he is a man. He is not pretending to be a woman. His profile on Sourcebooks calls him a "he"

So do I think a man can write romance? Sure. But getting me and others to read it with a male name on the cover might be a bit of a challenge. Just being honest here. I've been burned and I try not to have that happen again. Many times when I see a man writing romance its actually women's fiction. Not anything wrong with that, but I don't read women's fiction much. Too depressing often. Plus I like the viewpoint of both the hero and the heroine and WF tends to be more about the journey of the woman. 

I would go with first name initials but not pretending to be a woman. New Adult and many contempo romance novels have a author with initials. Most I am sure are women, but who knows. Maybe it became a thing in NA.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2013)

Now I want to write genre Romance with a female pen-name just to see if I can pull it off.


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## MsTee (Jul 30, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Now I want to write genre Romance with a female pen-name just to see if I can pull it off.


Joe, I definitely believe you can. I read Star Wanderers and the bit of Romance you had in it was very good.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> (I don't mean writers of romantic tragedy, like Nicholas Sparks)


Just have to say that I've never heard the term "romantic tragedy," but I love it! I wish Amazon had a romantic tragedy category.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

There used to be a romantic tragedy category in romance. It was called "bittersweet romance". It's been gone for sometime, which is a shame.

Of course men can write romance. My husband is much more romantic than I am (although I do enjoy being romanced). Just like straight can write gay, gay can write straight, monogamous can write erotica, non-sociopaths can write murder and horror...can we stop with the discrimination and stereo-typing please?


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

Caddy said:


> There used to be a romantic tragedy category in romance. It was called "bittersweet romance". It's been gone for sometime, which is a shame.


What?! How did I miss that? Oh well, probably better that I didn't know: saved me the heartache of it being taken away .



> Of course men can write romance. My husband is much more romantic than I am (although I do enjoy being romanced). Just like straight can write gay, gay can write straight, monogamous can write erotica, non-sociopaths can write murder and horror...can we stop with the discrimination and stereo-typing please?


Amen!


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

Romance is the great dream palace of the female imagination.  It's where any woman can enter to find solace from the idiotic, destructive, brainy world where men still rule--and kill and die--despite all female attempts to the contrary.  It's where the tormented, the frustrated, the weary, the shop girls, secretaries, wedding planners, meter maids, waitresses who will never become movie stars, who never get seats in the front row to feel the hot breath and heat from the loins of Justin Bieber, The Beatles, Frank Sinatra, Frankie Avalon, Johnny Mathis, Elvis, come and drink from the fount of Happily Ever After.

They do not want us in their palace, this sanctuary, even if we are clever enough to mimic them, even as they have been mimicking us for centuries.  Begone, they tell us.  Spare us your Anna Karenina, your Madame Bovary, your Juliet, your tragic heroines.  Leave us in our church, where Caleb will ever love Roxanne, and all will be well in this peaceable kingdom.


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## OEGaudio (Jul 26, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Now I want to write genre Romance with a female pen-name just to see if I can pull it off.


Do it. I wrote a 44k word romance and put it up under a pen name on October 1. I've had my best month in terms of sales, royalties and in fact it has now accounted for about 20% of sales since I started in July of 2012. It has outsold my other 13 works combined.

Plus it was a fun exercise and I enjoyed writing something totally different.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I don't think I've ever looked at an author name when buying a book unless I'm looking specifically for a well known author.  If I enjoy the book then I'll check out who wrote it, what else they have written etc.  I've read romance from a male POV -- although I guess that would be classed as lad lit, but it's great reading about guys going through the angst and pain of love  

And a word of advice to guys writing romance - never mention a woman's cup size! Dead giveaway of a male writer (and it's not even an actual size but ratio).


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Now what I want to know is: Can men write _erotica_ that is appealing to women?


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## whatdanwrote (Oct 18, 2012)

I asked someone this question, and I thought their response was interesting. They said, "You can write romance, but are your female fans going to want to come on Facebook and interact with you? Probably not as much."


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Depends. Some can and some can't. Just like some women can write romance and some can't. 

Rue


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> What?! How did I miss that? Oh well, probably better that I didn't know: saved me the heartache of it being taken away


I don't know if Amazon ever had it. I just know it used to exist and still exists on another romance book site. Usually one or the other dies, etc.



> Now what I want to know is: Can men write erotica that is appealing to women?


The answer is yes. They have. I'm a woman. Used to read it.  I liked it because it wasn't "romancy" or "flowery" but raw and hot. We're all different, male or female.

A good writier can write the opposite sex. Good heavens. Does an author actually KNOW what goes on in a killer's head? No, but they research, and maybe study and ASK. Drives me nuts when someone says a man can't write a woman or her viewpoint. Sure he can, if he bothers to talk to women and learn. Same with gay, straight, male, female, old, young, white, black. We are writer's. We are supposed to write about the human experience, not just our own.


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## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

I don't read or write romance, but....



Hudson Owen said:


> Romance is the great dream palace of the female imagination. It's where any woman can enter to find solace from the idiotic, destructive, brainy world where men still rule--and kill and die--despite all female attempts to the contrary.


Find solace from the *brainy* world where men rule??


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

Quiss said:


> Now what I want to know is: Can men write _erotica_ that is appealing to women?


My fav m/m erotica is written by men, though that might be a different case 

I agree with Caddy, often male erotica is rougher and I <3 that. Raw and sexy doesn't mean that it can't be emotional.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

ToniD said:


> I don't read or write romance, but....
> 
> Find solace from the *brainy* world where men rule??


I am assuming that, along with the shopgirls and secretaries, was meant tongue-in-cheek.


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## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

Quiss said:


> I am assuming that, along with the shopgirls and secretaries, was meant tongue-in-cheek.


Slow on the uptake, here.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't think it's a matter of can a man write good romance as much as it is a matter of perception. Certainty there are men doing well in that genre, but there's no denying it's overwhelmingly female oriented. Women would rather read romance written by other women (broad generalization). I would use a pseudonym if I went in that direction. There's no need to swim upstream when a simple pen name can fix it.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Can men write romance? 

Of course they can and many have. Peter O'Donnell, author of the Modesty Blaise spy novels, also wrote gothic romances under the pen name Madeleine Brent. Jessica Wilder, British author of historical romances, is an elderly man. Jennifer Wilde, a popular author of bodice-ripper style historicals in the 1970s and 1980s, was a man. SF writer Thomas M. Disch, a gay man, wrote gothic romances under a pen name. The Mills & Boon medical romance line has a male author writing under his own name. Leigh Greenwood, another male romance author, even made it to president of the RWA. There are also several male/female writing teams, e.g. Tom and Sharon Curtis who wrote as Laura London, the husband and wife writing teams writing as Ilona Andrews as well as KB's own Bob Mayer's collaborations with Jennifer Crusie.

However, as others have said, there is a bias against men writing romance. If anything, this bias has increased with the rise of indie publishing, because suddenly you get a lot of writers, many of them men, who see the big sales of romance and decide to try their hand at the genre, often without understanding the genre or ever having read a romance. Some of them are quite condescending, too. We've all seen threads to this effect here on KB. In the days of trad-publishing, none of the resulting works would have made it past the slush reader at Harlequin, but now many of them are available for sale at Amazon. And so romance readers who have been burned by a bad male written romance once too often develop a conscious or subconscious bias against male authors. Is this fair? Absolutely not. But it's the way things are.

Since the OP mentions that he enjoys reading romances, he obviously knows the genre and isn't one of those quick cash-in folks, which helps to reassure those who are wary of male romance authors. Another thing I would do in the OP's shoes is participate and comment at big romance sites like Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, Dear Author or All About Romance or at romance reader groups at Goodreads. Don't comment as an author, but simply participate as a reader. Men are rare at those sites and welcomed, provided they are genuinely interested in the romance genre. And if romance readers recognize your name as someone who reads and enjoy romance, they are more likely to give yours a try, even if you use a male name.  

Or you could avoid the hassle by using a gender neutral or female pen name.


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

Women book reviewers have said they are interested in reading romances written by men, to get more insight on the male characters and something fresh and different. So there is an interest out there and potential for breakout success.

Benchmarking romances written by women, I've found incorrect nuances with the male MCs or situations the male MCs were put in. So switching around with a man writing romances for a primarily female audience can offer similar risks. How to minimize the risks, the potential errors? Pick a few titles to benchmark when outlining/writing and use women beta readers who can provide a check against the more obvious problems.

When writing my PNR trilogy I was about 2/3rds through book one and had a panic attack if I was and could write it convincingly (female MC, first person POV) but my beta reader loved it so much I was soon writing and sending over partial sections because she wanted to know what happened next. One of my NA Beta readers told me they let their kids get their own meals because they were so engrossed in the story. Though I still got hammered on the NAs by one star reviews after running Select free promotions.... So I'm still working on continuous improvement and more benchmarking.

Now this thread is making me wonder what trying either "the initials" or a pen name on the next project might do, just to experiment.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Wow, what a response! Thank you very much to each person for answering my questions.

I was definitely asking the bigger question about can the romance readers accept a male writer and what their instant reaction is to romance book with a male authors name on it. 

I think the general consensus is that while men can write romance it is seen as not ideal by the target audience of romance, women. Either from their past experiences or just a subconscious kind of thing, they prefer their romances to be written by women. Nothing wrong with the way they feel, thanks for the honesty. 

The other thing is if I join the romance writing genre, most would recommend I use a pen name or initials. I don't like the idea of posing as a women author. I don't have a problem with using my initials but I would be straight up on my author profile and website that I am a man. I think being honest with people is best long term.

My gut reaction to this is to go out and show it can be done, even with my name on the cover, Matt Ryan(there is nothing gender neutral about a name like that). But do I want to go through an uphill struggle? I would have to be better at it then my competition to even get noticed. Everything I did might be construed as "He can't understand, he's just a guy". It would be even more of a battle to get my foot into each door, each writing group, each blogger, each kindle. I would have to watch women come in, write the same stuff I did and they'd take off to the top, while I'd be passed over again and again, losing my will. Amazon would come around every so often toss me a wink and a "You're doing pretty good... for a guy" before giving another KDD to a female author over me, promising me that next time, it'll be mine, but I know it won't.

In all seriousness though, all I thought was, hey, I have this idea for a book and it follows the romance rules. I never thought about getting raunchy or m/m or going on describing breasts for three pages. No. I wanted to tell a story about a guy and girl, learning to love each other and help make both their life's better by doing so, using both POV's. I have a decent understanding of how a romance is written and thought it might be a broadening experience to delve into my feminine side. I love women and not just for the fun parts they have but for the way they think, the way they can soften my rough edges, get my heart to move. There isn't anything greater in my life than when I can connect with a women on such a deep level that I forget everything else, my barriers come down, my heart races, and it's not just sex, but just being there with her, getting the warm feelings every times she's near and sharing in life with her. That's what I wanted to capture, I wanted to create two people and watch them fall in love on the pages(with a healthy dose of obstacles, of course) and hopefully create some of those warm feeling with my words.

I'm about five chapters in and I've had a great time writing up to this point but now I'm nervous to go back to those pages. I don't want to mess up, I don't want to suck and give more evidence men can't do it right. I'll write it because I have to but I may just drawer it.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm pretty famous at this point for slipping a little Vitamin R (for romance subplot) into my stuff. Romance and combat; those are the two things I get praise for like all the time.

... Than again, people keep thinking I'm a woman. So there's that. Maybe people praise my combat in the same way they call me 'well spoken'.



Quiss said:


> Now what I want to know is: Can men write _erotica_ that is appealing to women?


On this beat, I'm going to cop to being way too immature, especailly in the Wild Wild West that is the 'sex with monsters' category. I've already outlined my aboleth erotica here. This time the only thing that came into my head--the only thing _staying_ in my head--is the title, _Wang Stiffman and the Boner Knights and Tang._ And I can't. Stop. Giggling.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Matt Ryan said:


> I'm about five chapters in and I've had a great time writing up to this point but now I'm nervous to go back to those pages. I don't want to mess up, I don't want to suck and give more evidence men can't do it right. I'll write it because I have to but I may just drawer it.


Don't shelf it!

Two words. Nicholas Sparks.

He is a man the last time I checked (his Amazon author profile, that is), but he writes love stories (nowhere on his Amazon page does he call them romance even though the novels are pretty much that). I think if you market your novel however Sparks does it, then you are going to be OK using your own name. IMO Sparks has crossed the threshold and succeeded.

To tell you the truth I don't read his books bc they are too teary-type can't-handle-Kleenex-moment for me, but I think he's worthy of a case study. Example:









http://www.amazon.com/The-Longest-Ride-Nicholas-Sparks-ebook/dp/B00BOTU42A/ref=pd_sim_kstore_5

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #31 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#2 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Literary
#2 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Literary Fiction > Women's Fiction
#3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Life

For the life of me I don't get how Sparks manage to get this book listed under Women's Fiction. Like he knows? Maybe he does. BUT what I'm noticing is that he listed it under "Family Life." That might be your ticket. A man *CAN* write about Family Life.

Again, whatever Nicholas Sparks did with his books, women are flocking to buy them, and they all know he is a man.  Sort of like psychologists don't have to be female to understand women.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

ToniD said:


> I don't read or write romance, but....
> 
> Find solace from the *brainy* world where men rule??


You have taken one adjective from my sentence. Actually, "bainiac," was the word I was looking for, meaning, a certain 1950s kind of annoying efficiency expert. I'm not certain that "nerd" means quite the same thing. And yes, when it comes to power and politics, men still rule, often with ill effects.

And, yes, shop girls and the like. Who reads the millions of Romance novels out there and why? Certainly not educated, feminist authors who would likely not be caught dead reading romance novels. I would guess they would be more into erotica and fiction and polemics that the literati read. You might call it a class issue as much as a male/female issue.

The women authors who posted ahead of me made it fairly clear that they did not really want men in their genre, maybe if men took female names or used initials. It doesn't interest me much that a female author can write sci fi or that a male author can pull of a Romance novel--how they can perform as actors It interests me what men and women say in their authentic voices, when they speak from the heart, unswayed by the politics of the moment.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> And, yes, shop girls and the like. Who reads the millions of Romance novels out there and why? Certainly not educated, feminist authors who would likely not be caught dead reading romance novels. I would guess they would be more into erotica and fiction and polemics that the literati read. You might call it a class issue as much as a male/female issue.


Surely you jest.



Hudson Owen said:


> The women authors who posted ahead of me made it fairly clear that they did not really want men in their genre, maybe if men took female names or used initials. It doesn't interest me much that a female author can write sci fi or that a male author can pull of a Romance novel--how they can perform as actors It interests me what men and women say in their authentic voices, when they speak from the heart, unswayed by the politics of the moment.


I happened to have posted right before you, and I gave an example of a male writer who successfully writes women's fiction.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Overall, I think Cora nailed it. I have no doubt that men CAN write romances that women, like me, will love. The issue is that so often, male authors see romance as a cash cow and jump in without sufficiently researching the genre, audience, or reader expectations. They are arrogant enough to believe that they can write a woman's voice without doing the research, asking the questions, etc.

We don't often hear people asking the reverse: can women write men's voices/desires? The truth is, yes, we can -- and yes, we do have to take the same care to be faithful and authentic to the characteristics of the male gender. The difference, though, is that most women grow up and live within a constant stream of male voices. The male perspective is everywhere in our society. In the movies/TV we watch, the books we read, the music we listen to, the pundits we try to ignore. It's hard to miss it. It's hard not to absorb that voice. It's expected that we will.

The same is not true in reverse. So just as a white author seeking to write about people of color would do a bit more research, so too should a male author do some extra research of his own when trying to write as a woman. This is nothing against the white and/or male author, and I certainly don't want to turn this conversation into any kind of political argument. It's just that, IMO (and in the Os of many scholars), those of us Others have internalized the male voice -- to a degree that he has not had to internalize the voice of Others. It's just the way it is. Hence the condescension that some of us readers balk at when we see men jumping on the romance train.



Matt Ryan said:


> I'm about five chapters in and I've had a great time writing up to this point but now I'm nervous to go back to those pages. I don't want to mess up, I don't want to suck and give more evidence men can't do it right. I'll write it because I have to but I may just drawer it.


It sounds to me like you HAVE done the research, you ARE asking the questions, and you have a story to tell. Don't shelve your book! Get some female beta readers, frequent Dear Author and Smart Bitches. I believe wholeheartedly that men can be romantic too!  And you have the right attitude. As for your name, I suggest using initials. "M. Ryan" or whatever. I'd pick that up.

As for Hudson Owen's comments -- I am biting my tongue SO hard, Betsy!


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2013)

MsTee said:


> Joe, I definitely believe you can. I read Star Wanderers and the bit of Romance you had in it was very good.


Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it.



kathrynoh said:


> although I guess that would be classed as lad lit,


  THAT'S what I write!


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Hudson Owen said:


> And, yes, shop girls and the like. Who reads the millions of Romance novels out there and why? *Certainly not educated, feminist authors who would likely not be caught dead reading romance novels.* I would guess they would be more into erotica and fiction and polemics that the literati read. You might call it a class issue as much as a male/female issue.


Oh, okay. So, romance readers are uneducated and antifeminist.

*tallies number of romance novels on shelf*

*checks to see if all those years in school were really just one long acid trip* Spoiler alert: they weren't!

You _truly_ have no idea what you're talking about.

BUT I can tell that you're not the type to be convinced of anything, so for any men reading this thread wondering whether they can write romance?

Think loooooong and hard before you underestimate your potential readership. Long. and. hard!


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

JanThompson said:


> Surely you jest.
> 
> I happened to have posted right before you, and I gave an example of a male writer who successfully writes women's fiction.


Why am I jesting? I've worked in many offices in New York City, like dozens of them, and I noticed who read what in those offices. None of the secretaries/receptionists (overwhelmingly female) read the literary fiction I read. Do you have the personal experience to say otherwise?

As I mentioned, it doesn't interested me if a writer can "cross dress, as it were, and write in a genre normally associated with the opposite sex. Yes, that can be accomplished. A more interesting stat would be how many men read romance novels, support the genre with their money?


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

JKenney said:


> My first instinct is No...mostly because male authors tend towards a plot focus, and romance readers are much more character focused. But I would not rule you out purely because of your gender.


I'm hoping you don't really mean this, because it is a generalization that I'm not sure you have the evidence to support. Just because we have male equipment doesn't mean we can't write character driven stories--and even from a woman's POV. Many of us have been successful doing just that. 

I agree with everyone's suggestion that you not write romance under a male name. Many women use initials for the same reason when writing various genres, so as to not feed into any reader bias.

Pax and kind regards

G


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> Why am I jesting? I've worked in many offices in New York City, like dozens of them, and I noticed who read what in those offices. None of the secretaries/receptionists (overwhelmingly female) read the literary fiction I read. Do you have the personal experience to say otherwise?


That's anecdotal, IMO. RWA has the stats:

http://www.rwa.org/p/cm/ld/fid=582
"The greatest percentage of romance book buyers (39 percent) have an income between $50,000 and $99,900."



Hudson Owen said:


> As I mentioned, it doesn't interested me if a writer can "cross dress, as it were, and write in a genre normally associated with the opposite sex. Yes, that can be accomplished. A more interesting stat would be how many men read romance novels, support the genre with their money?


Why should a man cross dress in order to write women's fiction? Can't they stand by their own boxers shorts?

You asked how many men read R - well, not sure but 9% of R buyers are men:

http://www.rwa.org/p/cm/ld/fid=582
"Women make up 91 percent of romance book buyers, and men make up 9 percent."

The rest of the stats might be interesting too such as the R subgenres. So you might be zooming in on specific subgenres, but the R genre has many subgenres, including romantic suspense, romantic thrillers, romantic sci-fi, etc.

Which subgenres might your office ladies be reading? That might shed some light.









http://www.rwa.org/p/cm/ld/fid=582


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Hudson Owen said:


> Why am I jesting? I've worked in many offices in New York City, like dozens of them, and I noticed who read what in those offices. None of the secretaries/receptionists (overwhelmingly female) read the literary fiction I read. Do you have the personal experience to say otherwise?
> 
> As I mentioned, it doesn't interested me if a writer can "cross dress, as it were, and write in a genre normally associated with the opposite sex. Yes, that can be accomplished. A more interesting stat would be how many men read romance novels, support the genre with their money?


I'm a guy that's read romance novels(Feel like I'm at an AA meeting now). Would I take my Stardust novel to work for lunch break, yeah, cause what do I care, let them judge. BTW I'm the President of a company dominated by men. Did I have a "chick book" mentality about romance novels before? Yeah, but it stemmed from ignorance. Like everything in life, you can't really judge it until you understand it. The women at KB turned me, their posts and comments, their dedication to the craft. I had to read these books, I wanted to understand it better and found the appeal in them. So now if I saw a woman reading a book with a cover of a massive flowing dress, I'll understand what she is reading, even the genre/subgenre if the cover is good, and make an educated judgment, it might even give me a way to say hello and break that ice.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Here is another RWA study of romance readers demographics which shows that the majority of romance readers have college degrees. So much for the shop girls. The study also shows that there are more male readers than expected.

Indeed, condiscending attitudes like those are a lareg part of the reason why many romance readers are wary of male authors.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

CoraBuhlert said:


> Here is another RWA study of romance readers demographics which shows that the majority of romance readers have college degrees. So much for the shop girls. The study also shows that there are more male readers than expected.
> 
> Indeed, condiscending attitudes like those are a lareg part of the reason why many romance readers are wary of male authors.





CoraBuhlert said:


> Here is another RWA study of romance readers demographics which shows that the majority of romance readers have college degrees. So much for the shop girls. The study also shows that there are more male readers than expected.
> 
> Indeed, condiscending attitudes like those are a lareg part of the reason why many romance readers are wary of male authors.


Jan Thompson - thanks for the graph and stats. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of R readers are women. I am surprised at the income range and education levels. Maybe there is a story here. Maybe the story is a lack of romantic ideals in their dystopian work and leisure lives.

CoraBuhlert - Let's not dismiss the shop girls. I have affection and respect for shop girls. They are not stupid or dumb. They look for ways to improve their lives, to get a better job, a better boyfriend. Still, they are more likely to read the Daily News than the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal; Cosmopolitan than The New Yorker. They pass their dog-eared Romance and genre novels from one to the other at work, with their personal recommendations, totally outside the circle of academic literary criticism. They do not write or read essays like "Robert Frost's Theater of Cruelty," by Joyce Carol Oats in the latest Harper's Magazine. Be nice to the next shop girl you meet. Strike up a conversation with her; you might even come to like her.

I bid you all a pleasant good evening.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> *The women authors who posted ahead of me made it fairly clear that they did not really want men in their genre, maybe if men took female names or used initials.* It doesn't interest me much that a female author can write sci fi or that a male author can pull of a Romance novel--how they can perform as actors It interests me what men and women say in their authentic voices, when they speak from the heart, unswayed by the politics of the moment.


Well, bud, I didn't get that sense from the thread at all.

My debut novel (went live on Sat) is a rom-com. And it's good. Not because I said so, because I got some reviews already. Legit reviews, not fiver reviews. And women reviewed it. 
Frankly, if some woman were to shy away from my book because of my gender, I don't need that sort of stereo typing from a reader- especially since my take's 30 cents a copy because I'm trying to develop a readership.

Elle Casey does a lot of YA and she's over 20. Hugh Howey's mc in the silo series is a female. And to my knowledge he has never lived in a bomb shelter let alone a silo. Russell Blake NAILED the Jet character.

Yes, readers make snap judgements on covers, I sure do. But I've never NOT picked up a book and read the blurb b/c of the author's gender. Men can be lame brained and prejudiced. So can women. I deliberately didn't use a female pen name nor the whole initial thing because if that's a piece of data needed to decide not to read my book, then looks good on you.

I had a total gas writing the book. And if readers like it or not like it, I hope it's for the writing and not for my gender.

Now, if Funny Business takes off, I hope it's b/c of the writing and not some kind of 'affirmative action' sentiment!


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## Linda Barlow (Jul 5, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> And, yes, shop girls and the like. Who reads the millions of Romance novels out there and why? Certainly not educated, feminist authors who would likely not be caught dead reading romance novels. I would guess they would be more into erotica and fiction and polemics that the literati read. You might call it a class issue as much as a male/female issue.


Whoa...is this old-fashioned belief about romance readers STILL alive? Highly educated and proud feminist here. I've been reading romances for most of my life, despite my multiple advanced degrees. The same is true of many of my equally well-educated friends. Not to mention my Harvard-educated daughter. Yes, I read across many genres, depending upon my mood when I'm about to buy a book, but I love romance and always have.

As a feminist, I would note that because romances have usually been written by women, for women, focusing on women's fantasies, it is perhaps not surprising that they still incur such condescension from, the, er, patriarchy


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Maybe it depends? If life is treating the male species well, then why not? If you have a job where you're sweating on a roof all day and have birds fly by and sh*t on your head, you get off work and your wife or GF treats you like sh*t and the kids are crying, probably not.

I feel in order to write a believable story it would be best to write a story in a genre which represents a stage in your life. Mine is 100% pure dystopian. I need to be able to write romance/erotica one day, really I do, but in my present stage I have to many birds flying over and dropping stuff on my head and a Female counter part that could fill in for Linda Blair in the Movie the Exodus.

If your sipping fine wines on a yacht with a honey at your side and a wallet full of green stuff you can become a great romance/erotic writer. A wallet full of green can ensure your honey is not from the exodus and if she is open the wallet and exchange her for something with shorter fangs.  

Everything has to evolve in the state of mind the writer is in. If you live by yourself away from things with large fangs you could pull off a romance book as long as the birds did not fly over head and bomb you with brown specks of kindness.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Hudson Owen said:


> Jan Thompson - thanks for the graph and stats. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of R readers are women. I am surprised at the income range and education levels. Maybe there is a story here. Maybe the story is a lack of romantic ideals in their dystopian work and leisure lives.


Um, really? I'm hoping you're either being sarcastic, or stirring.

I have two university degrees. I like romance. I have no interest in literary fiction. At all.

Reading is about imagination, and entertainment, not about education. People read things that they enjoy. Some enjoy literary fiction, some don't. Some enjoy romance, some don't. It has nothing to do with education or income!

Anyway, back to the OP.

This one threw me, because when I first thought about it, my immediate reaction was that a male name on the cover would put me off, and my own thinking irritates me. I know many males who are sensitive, and totally could write a romance novel! But I think that fear of being burned is definitely there. Silly really, when many women writers have burned me too!

After reading through this thread though, I'm fascinated by the idea, and definitely want to find a few romances written by males to see what they're like. I completely agree that you should give it a go, and even if you use your initials instead of your full name, don't hide who you are. A little 'about the author' at the end of the book would be cool.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Romance is popular for the lack of it in our lives. It possibly says something about the way we live our lives and take the simplest things for granted, a slight touch on your girls hand, a gentle kiss an a slight smile showing you care. It all disappears with the kids crying or fighting amongst themselves, finding ways to pay the bills and put food on the table. Now that all those things are done we have little time for each other, but yet we have time to read a romance book? Why not put the book down and try to bring real romance into our lives?

Honestly it has been done before, not impossible, but it does take effort. If the romance slowly disappears it will be very hard to ever get it back. Shedule on a calendar romantic events where you have a baby sitter sleep over and you go away for the weekend without the kids and do it every month, don't put it off. If your poor and money is an issue camp out somewhere.

Romance books selling as well as they do is a sign that society is failing and we are falling out of love at alarming rates. Honestly I have not felt in love for so long I do not even remember what it feels like.

You read to enjoy yourself and to escape into a futuristic world of our choosing, romance should be lived, not read about. If your love life is the pits and the romance is gone recreate it, write a story and the MC's are you and your partner.


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## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

I haven't posted in a while, but I felt like this thread was a good excuse to come out of lurk mode since I find this topic fascinating. I've sold over 150,000 books writing erotic romance under a female pseudonym, and the name issue bothers me constantly. I went with the pseudonym because I knew there was a certain innate bias against romances with male names attached to them, and I didn't want to hamstring myself before I'd even begun. Plus, at the time, I really just wanted to see if I could do it. I expected that I'd fail miserably.

But now that I've found success, the name feels a little trying at times. I feel like I can't really be myself when interacting with my fans. I'm doing my best to make sure  that the way I conduct myself doesn't do anything else to further the lie. I don't fawn over images of shirtless guys, or talk about the Fifty Shades casting or whatever just to make myself seem more authentic, but it means I'm more distant from my fans than a lot of other authors, and I can't take part in the general romance dialogue that goes down on Facebook or Good Reads in the same way.

I've debated whether or not to out myself. Part of me feels like it would be an interesting experiment, and I know I'd get a lot of curiosity publicity. But I keep coming back to that innate bias, and I can't shake the idea that a good chunk of my fans would be upset by that revelation, even if objectively they acknowledge that they enjoyed my stuff prior to finding out. If anyone has any thoughts on this one way or the other, I'm all ears.

In terms of whether men can actually write that stuff, it's certainly possible. People seem to love my female characters for being strong, entertaining and authentic, and I get plenty of swoony comments about my male leads. Women also seem to really dig the sex scenes I write. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I actually think my stuff is pretty mediocre. I'm simply trying to point out that over hundreds of reviews and reader comments, no one has ever suggested I'm anything other than the female my name indicates. All the areas that people seem to think men would struggle with haven't been a factor, so I think that's a reasonable indication that men can nail that voice if they put in the work.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Matt Ryan said:


> (I know we've discussed this some time in the past but I couldn't find it and I'd love some incite on this topic.)
> 
> I've been enjoying the romance genre for about a year. It started off as a study of what exactly was going on over there and I quickly embraced the style and approach. I set out to write my own romance, a sweet romance with some light sci fi and a HFN ending. Maybe even a trilogy with it. But then I heard women don't like male romance authors. I was sort of stunned, maybe I was naive thinking I could write what a woman wants to read in a romance. So I did some research:
> 
> ...


Well Romeo & Juliette isn't an action thriller.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> Well Romeo & Juliette isn't an action thriller.


No, it's a tragedy.
And lacks a HEA or HFN ending.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Andykay said:


> I've sold over 150,000 books writing erotic romance under a female pseudonym, and the name issue bothers me constantly. I went with the pseudonym because I knew there was a certain innate bias against romances with male names attached to them, and I didn't want to hamstring myself before I'd even begun.


I kid you not, I really didn't give my author name a lot of thought when I hit publish. When I started my m/s in Jan I had read a bunch of Romance novels and simply thought that I had a story to tell. Your comment and the tone of this thread actually has me concerned that I might have wasted my time from a sales and marketing perspective.



Andykay said:


> I've sold over 150,000 books writing erotic romance under a female pseudonym, and the name issue bothers me constantly.





> But now that I've found success, the name feels a little trying at times. I feel like I can't really be myself when interacting with my fans. I'm doing my best to make sure that the way I conduct myself doesn't do anything else to further the lie.


I don't know if it's a 'lie' per se, but I do understand the presence of a line crossed. The fact that it bothers you speaks of your integrity more than what you did in order to get over a barrier.



> I've debated whether or not to out myself. Part of me feels like it would be an interesting experiment, and I know I'd get a lot of curiosity publicity. But I keep coming back to that innate bias, and *I can't shake the idea that a good chunk of my fans would be upset by that revelation*,


[/quote]

This sounds like an ethical dilemma. On the one hand, you want to come clean (or something like that) on the other hand, doing so runs the risk of hurting people who bought into your pen name's image. In addition to possibly damaging your pen name's career beyond repair.
- if you came out of the pen name closet just for some 'publicity' to give you a bump in sales, then I think you'd be hurting people (in some fashion) for money, and that's not very idealistic.
- if it's really bothering your sense of integrity though, the question I have pose is along the lines of 'wouldn't that also be sort of self indulgent?' Just sayin'.

How about writing and pubbing a few works (I don't know your productivity levels when I say this) under your own name? I'm sure you've considered it. Now if you don't want to because of the track record of your pen name... well, that sort of brings you full circle.



> even if objectively they acknowledge that they enjoyed my stuff prior to finding out. If anyone has any thoughts on this one way or the other, I'm all ears.


 Well, those are mine. You can see how I either sail or crash and burn w/ my novel and maybe learn from my experience in going in the other direction re author name.

(Why is the movie 'Victor/Victoria in my head right now?  )


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

JKenney said:


> My first instinct is No...mostly because male authors tend towards a plot focus, and romance readers are much more character focused.


The protagonist of my suspense fiction is a woman working as a freelance assassin. Not only have many people praised my depiction of a woman 'making it in a man's world', but her approach to her occupation is also deemed feminine by readers. I think a good writer can step into anyone's shoes and write about them convincingly.



C.C. Kelly said:


> I think it has a lot to do with understanding your audience and in general, I'd say a woman is going to understand how women think better than a man - again, generally speaking and vice versa.


Not necessarily. I write from a woman's perspective and get praise from female readers. I write from a blind man's perspective and I get praise from blind readers. I think every man has a feminine side and every woman has a male side to them.



C.C. Kelly said:


> When I read Twilight, I was annoyed by the constant and incessant whining (over all 4 books no less), but it was explained to me by a woman, that this was a big part of why teenage girls loved this book - that inner turmoil and drama.


We are talking 'women' not 'teenagers' are we? Anyway, many women enjoyed Twilight. Many women also decried the lack of feminism in the sense that the female protagonist was a weak, vulnerable person who constantly needed saving.



Quiss said:


> Now what I want to know is: Can men write _erotica_ that is appealing to women?


Can women write erotica that's is appealing to men?



CoraBuhlert said:


> Can men write romance?
> 
> Of course they can and many have. Peter O'Donnell....


I love you, Cora. You always manage to bring this level-headed constructive information into a discussion. Thank you.



Vaalingrade said:


> I'm pretty famous at this point for slipping a little Vitamin R (for romance subplot) into my stuff. Romance and combat; those are the two things I get praise for like all the time.


I write suspense fiction, not romantic suspense. Still, many reviewers allude to reading my books for the romance between the protagonists and having to quell the impulse to skip the suspense chapters to read the next interaction between the protagonists. Also, while the male protagonist isn't written as a hunky lovegod, many female readers consider him sexy and exciting. That also shows that female readers are more interested in what a character does than how he looks.

I wonder about romantic suspense. I've recently read one that has loads of fans but was criminally bad and I do think I would've done much better. For example, I never would've described a man french-kissing a woman as 'his tongue deepened the assault'. Although I might be tempted to write a romantic suspense novel, I'm more inclined to inject more romance in my suspense fiction series.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Can men write romance?

About as well as women can operate heavy machinery, I'd guess.

Of course, there's a lot of sexist profiling going around.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

The question at hand isn't can men write romance, of course they can, but will the fact that being a man might affect his ability to market his book, from what I've seen here and on the best selling romance list, yes, there is bias, so use a pen name.



> from: Andykay: I've sold over 150,000 books writing erotic romance under a female pseudonym, and the name issue bothers me constantly. I went with the pseudonym because I knew there was a certain innate bias against romances with male names attached to them, and I didn't want to hamstring myself before I'd even begun.


If JK Rowling can write as Robert Galbraith, why can't you write under a female pseudonym? She had a whole BS bio for Robert Galbraith. I understand why it bothers, but I don't think it's anything too fret. At that level of books sold, your books are being enjoyed by many, so even if you reveal yourself to be a man, you might lose some readers, but I think in the long run you'll be just fine if you decide to reveal your gender. 

To the OP, don't drawer your manuscript because of bias! You've written it, it seems like you enjoyed writing it, go for it. Just use a pen name with initials and go for it.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Romantic men can write romance. Romantic men get it, some men will never understand how to be romantic in a million years.

Then again maybe the phrase "how to be" is misplaced. You either know, or you don't. I recently watched a lady struggle with a bottle of red wine and unfortunately it crashed to the floor. I suppose in my dreams I could have dove across the floor and performed a miracle catch. Sorry, sometimes dreams don't come true. 

I knew that there was no point rushing over and helping with the clean up. We men know when to stay out of the situation. However I did make my way towards my apartment and removed a Cadbury's Creme Egg from my safe. yes I keep Creme Eggs in my safe, they are very precious. By the time I returned the mess was cleaned up and the post mortem was taking place. I apologized for her loss, ( a lady losing a bottle of red, that's a sore one ), introduced myself and gave the distressed damsel the Creme Egg by way of compensation.

There followed a beautiful summer romance with plans to move in together. Amazing.

Just at the point of selecting our love nest, my lady announced. "I've got a job on Houston, see you in 6 months".

I want my Creme Egg back.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2013)

I contributed to this thread a couple of times thus far, but each time something kept nagging at me. For a while I couldn't put my finger on it, but in the back of my mind I knew I was missing something. Then, as I was working on a scene for the next book in my series, it hit me. Men write romance all the time. We just integrated into our respective genres. 
One of the things my fans love about my books is the romance between the two primary characters. And not only between them, but there is romance with supporting characters as well. Lost love, true devotion, longing, lust - it's all there. It's just not considered a "romance" novel. 
There are three basic elements to a story - I'm not being condescending, just making a point - Action, adventure and romance. You would learn this in any beginners creative writing class. I know some will say, what about suspense? or what about intrigue? That's covered under the broader categories -  so don't jump all over  me and play just along for a second. 
A great example of this is Star Wars Episode I. People left the theater knowing something was missing. They couldn't tell you what is was, other than they hater Jar Jar. But I knew right away. There was action and adventure, but no romance. Sure, you knew Little Anni would end up with Padmay,but he was too young in the first movie. 
So, to make a short point very long....men write romance.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Hudson Owen said:


> And, yes, shop girls and the like. Who reads the millions of Romance novels out there and why? *Certainly not educated, feminist authors who would likely not be caught dead reading romance novels.* I would guess they would be more into erotica and fiction and polemics that the literati read. You might call it a class issue as much as a male/female issue.


You're aware that the statistics show that the Romance readership as a whole is better-educated, and has a higher income, than the readership of any other fiction genre, right?


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

BrianDAnderson said:


> I contributed to this thread a couple of times thus far, but each time something kept nagging at me. For a while I couldn't put my finger on it, but in the back of my mind I knew I was missing something. Then, as I was working on a scene for the next book in my series, it hit me. Men write romance all the time. We just integrated into our respective genres.
> One of the things my fans love about my books is the romance between the two primary characters. And not only between them, but there is romance with supporting characters as well. Lost love, true devotion, longing, lust - it's all there. It's just not considered a "romance" novel.
> There are three basic elements to a story - I'm not being condescending, just making a point - Action, adventure and romance. You would learn this in any beginners creative writing class. I know some will say, what about suspense? or what about intrigue? That's covered under the broader categories - so don't jump all over me and play just along for a second.
> A great example of this is Star Wars Episode I. People left the theater knowing something was missing. They couldn't tell you what is was, other than they hater Jar Jar. But I knew right away. There was action and adventure, but no romance. Sure, you knew Little Anni would end up with Padmay,but he was too young in the first movie.
> So, to make a short point very long....men write romance.


There's romance and then there is Romance. Romance has a specific focus, a building of tension based on internal struggles for a couple falling in love. You can have all the external plot you want, but if you leave that out, it's just romance with no capital R. And it's not an easy thing to pull off.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> You're aware that the statistics show that the Romance readership as a whole is better-educated, and has a higher income, than the readership of any other fiction genre, right?


Do you mean ... when pooled together?

I thought all the rich people did nothing but watch Mad Men and have Mad Men-themed cocktail parties.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Mimi said:


> I thought all the rich people did nothing but watch Mad Men and have Mad Men-themed cocktail parties.


Well, duh. And thus we can leave them out of the equation altogether since they don't read anything, right?


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

whatdanwrote said:


> I asked someone this question, and I thought their response was interesting. They said, "You can write romance, but are your female fans going to want to come on Facebook and interact with you? Probably not as much."


You might be very surprised. If you're friendly and take the time to converse with your fans on Facebook, it could pay off. Being a guy writing romance could make you stand out. Ryan Winfield's audience is mostly women and he takes the time to reply to all of them....doesn't sound like a big deal, but he has 140k+ fans now on his page. Most of them have come in the past year. I read his first book South of Bixby Bridge and have been following him since. His stuff isn't classic romance, but his most recent book, Jane's Melody, has a female main character and there's an intriguing love story there that has really resonated.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2013)

SBright said:


> There's romance and then there is Romance. Romance has a specific focus, a building of tension based on internal struggles for a couple falling in love. You can have all the external plot you want, but if you leave that out, it's just romance with no capital R. And it's not an easy thing to pull off.


It's a distinction with very little difference. A major part of my story is the relationship between the two main characters. It's a YA fantasy series, but romance is one of the key factors.


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## [email protected] (Apr 8, 2012)

theblether said:


> I want my Creme Egg back.


I am so sorry for your loss. Good people respect the gift of Cadbury.

Seriously, if you write romance I want to read it.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

So I just finished a nice long chit-chat with one of my coworkers over coffee. We talked romance novels the whole time.

According to Hudson, we must be shopgirls or receptionists. Except that we're both attorneys. Curious...


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

BrianDAnderson said:


> A great example of this is Star Wars Episode I. People left the theater knowing something was missing. They couldn't tell you what is was, other than they hater Jar Jar. But I knew right away. There was action and adventure, but no romance. Sure, you knew Little Anni would end up with Padmay,but he was too young in the first movie.


The Star Wars prequel trilogy was missing... everything. The romance, when it did come, didn't save it. The original trilogy was so intense and had so much light and dark and focus. The later prequels were cheesy in comparison.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2013)

Anya said:


> The Star Wars prequel trilogy was missing... everything. The romance, when it did come, didn't save it. The original trilogy was so intense and had so much light and dark and focus. The later prequels were cheesy in comparison.


I wasn't making a comparison. Just sighting an example. I agree, by the way.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2013)

BrianDAnderson said:


> There are three basic elements to a story - I'm not being condescending, just making a point - Action, adventure and romance. You would learn this in any beginners creative writing class. I know some will say, what about suspense? or what about intrigue? That's covered under the broader categories - so don't jump all over me and play just along for a second.


Interesting theory. So what distinguishes action and adventure? And why choose those two, instead of mystery, tragedy, comedy, etc?


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

BrianDAnderson said:


> I wasn't making a comparison. Just sighting an example. I agree, by the way.


No, didn't think you were making a comparison with the original trilogy - I just didn't agree that romance would have saved Phantom Menace. The creatures in the original were kind of cool and made you suspend disbelief, whereas Jar Jar was cheesy and wrong and sounded like Eddie Murphy as the donkey in Shrek.

I do agree with you, that men do often write lots of romance mixed in with plot. I guess Romantic Suspense comes close to that (and is largely written by women) except that it's as heavy on romance as it is on the danger/action elements.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Now we can really get into the nuances of everything. I have romance in my book, the title is about a CIA asset who my MC falls in love with, but I've never considered it a romance book. It's a spy thriller with a little romance.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> I love you, Cora. You always manage to bring this level-headed constructive information into a discussion. Thank you.


Dank je well.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

I am struggling with my books and the "LARGE WORD" C A R E." My latest series of books I will be breaking apart religion, war and terrorism and adding romance and love where it's not allowed. In order to "C A R E" you have to show a human side which is filled with emotions. They endure so many hardships and soon they forget all about religion and they learn to love for the first time, even if the end result is loosing their life. If I write a story it's hard for me to write romance in a category such as romance/erotic or romance/historical. Erotic and sex for me is turning the wash machine on spin cycle and using your imagination. 
Romance is special where you try to form a bond of friendship and understanding in which it can lead to lust and erotic entanglements.

As a whole I feel romance is something more than just erotic. It's a building block to our relationships and it's an end to our relationship if the fire burning in the fireplace is not maintained and fed new firewood. At 55 I have been through a lot. I have had the wild S*X and I have had romance. S*X is easy romance is incredibly difficult to maintain in our lives. You cannot have great "S*X without L O V E." S*X  without love is like eating a great pizza but when the pizza is finished then what? With romance you own the pizza making establishment.

If your better half goes to work and you are not watching your clock to see when they come home or when you go off to the store to buy one of my books.  If you do not miss the other person and have pain in your heart for the other person when their not with you then the romance is gone. Remember your first love when you were a teenager how you felt inside waiting for your BF or GF to show up, how you had pain in your heart and how you miss them so, that is romance.

We get older and colder, part of life. It's hard to get older and not to experience a broken heart or a failed relationship. Romance is about starting new and fresh and continuely building on that through out our lives. Only than will you experience the joys of buying a new be frame after you broke the one you have. A strong romance will lead to incredible lust and s*x. if your not breaking your bed frames at least a few times a year then something is wrong. Men can write romance, if they can leave their past behind them and use a pen name. After all that is said here, often times men are included in the romance and if they let go of their old ways and move forward they can show their romantic side.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Well Romeo & Juliette isn't an action thriller.


Hmm... let's see.

It opens with a sword fight.

There's a big pivotal sword fight further in, during which Mercutio dies and then Romeo loses it and goes after Tybalt and kills him.

There's actually quite a bit of action in it. Bloody action. Lots of people die.

I'd say it's closer to an action thriller than to what we consider genre romance these days.  Good ol' Will.


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

I do blame the plethora of insta-love on Romeo+Juliet, though.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Interesting theory. So what distinguishes action and adventure? And why choose those two, instead of mystery, tragedy, comedy, etc?


Action because it covers such a vest number of things. Not just physical action. But we all know the story has to move in some way or other.
Adventure- the various plot devises and twists.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Had I seen this thread just seven days ago I would have put my book in a drawer and cancelled a $400 promotional program.


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## Robert Gregory Browne (Mar 10, 2011)

Matt Ryan said:


> If I go through with my romance novel, would you recommend a female pen name?


This depends on what type of romance book you're writing. If you writing a Nicholas Sparks romance novel, then it's fine to keep a male name. If you're writing an HPA Harlequin type romance, you're better off using a female pen name.

The answer to your initial question is, yes, men can write romance. Many men have and do write series romance. In addition to my own books, I've written five romantic suspense novels for Harlequin under a female pen name and intend to indie publish under that name as well. There's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> ...I've written five romantic suspense novels for Harlequin under a female pen name and intend to indie publish under that name as well. There's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well.


Thanks for responding.

Did Harlequin require you to write under a female pen name? I know men are capable but are they accepted? I think it's pretty clear by now that they are not. That was my bigger question.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

They probably did at one time, but as I mentioned in my previous post, Mills & Boon (which is Harlequin) has a clearly male author in their Medical Romance line writing under a male name.


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## Robert Gregory Browne (Mar 10, 2011)

Matt Ryan said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> Did Harlequin require you to write under a female pen name? I know men are capable but are they accepted? I think it's pretty clear by now that they are not. That was my bigger question.


I chose to write under a female pen name. I made that choice before I even wrote my first proposal. I (and my agent) wanted to keep that genre separate from my straight thrillers. And I also felt (and still feel) that the readers of those books prefer to read women authors.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> I chose to write under a female pen name. I made that choice before I even wrote my first proposal. I (and my agent) wanted to keep that genre separate from my straight thrillers. And I also felt (and still feel) that the readers of those books prefer to read women authors.


I'm curious on your opinion on using a pen name with initials for the first name versus a female pen name. And how far do you go? Do you get a stock photograph of a woman, create a bio? Thanks for your insight on this topic!


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## TonyWrites (Oct 1, 2013)

I plan on writing a short but sweet, non-raunchy or explicit (but still passionate) romance novel as my National Novel Writing Month challenge. Fortunately, I have a best friend who is well-versed in romance novels, so --despite having read dramatic romances like Ernest Hemingway's _A Farewell to Arms_-- I will still have a woman to guide me, especially when it comes to making my main character's love interest a believable, three-dimensional woman. Not the mindless Barbie dolls that populate (pollute?) explicit "urban fiction" these days. I sure look forward to the challenges it poses for me!


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

TonyWrites said:


> I plan on writing a short but sweet, non-raunchy or explicit (but still passionate) romance novel as my National Novel Writing Month challenge. Fortunately, I have a best friend who is well-versed in romance novels, so --despite having read dramatic romances like Ernest Hemingway's _A Farewell to Arms_-- I will still have a woman to guide me, especially when it comes to making my main character's love interest a believable, three-dimensional woman. Not the mindless Barbie dolls that populate (pollute?) explicit "urban fiction" these days. I sure look forward to the challenges it poses for me!


 A farewell to Arms isn't a romance, it's a literary love story. If your idea of romance is Hemingway, then yes you're doomed from the start. No one disputes that men can write literary love stories, but people are disputing if men can write genre romances, think Harlequin, think the Fabio-covered books (Note those are old-fashioned, but you get the point).


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## JKenney (Apr 1, 2013)

Alan Petersen said:


> I'm curious on your opinion on using a pen name with initials for the first name versus a female pen name. And how far do you go? Do you get a stock photograph of a woman, create a bio? Thanks for your insight on this topic!


Just my opinion from a woman writing in sci-fi which faces a similar reverse bias against female writers....use initials and then be honest about who you really are. That first biased opinion is gone once they read your work, and look at your bio...

That first twitch is subconscious, and will only influence that first biased view. Once they have read your book, and value your work...gender will be irrelevant...

IMHO


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## TonyWrites (Oct 1, 2013)

olefish said:


> A farewell to Arms isn't a romance, it's a literary love story.


No, my idea of romance _isn't_ Hemingway. I was just listing it as a love story I have read.
My goal is to write a romance that blends the traditional happy ending of genre romance with some deep literary introspection on the part of the main character and the woman he loves. That is possible, is it not?


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> This depends on what type of romance book you're writing. If you writing a Nicholas Sparks romance novel, then it's fine to keep a male name. If you're writing an HPA Harlequin type romance, you're better off using a female pen name.
> 
> The answer to your initial question is, yes, men can write romance. Many men have and do write series romance. In addition to my own books, I've written five romantic suspense novels for Harlequin under a female pen name and intend to indie publish under that name as well. There's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well.


See, that's my issue, you know. If "there's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well," then why did you have to "hide" behind a female pen name? It's the perception, isn't it, of HQN readers?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

So long as a guy can embrace the female fantasy of love conquering all, he should have no problem writing a romance.

I agree with the suggestion to use initials on the book cover, but your true picture and bio. I agree that the cover is where the bias can hurt sales, but once they've read your book it won't matter who you are.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Hudson Owen said:


> Jan Thompson - thanks for the graph and stats. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of R readers are women. I am surprised at the income range and education levels. Maybe there is a story here. Maybe the story is a lack of romantic ideals in their dystopian work and leisure lives.
> 
> CoraBuhlert - Let's not dismiss the shop girls. I have affection and respect for shop girls. They are not stupid or dumb. They look for ways to improve their lives, to get a better job, a better boyfriend. Still, they are more likely to read the Daily News than the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal; Cosmopolitan than The New Yorker. They pass their dog-eared Romance and genre novels from one to the other at work, with their personal recommendations, totally outside the circle of academic literary criticism. They do not write or read essays like "Robert Frost's Theater of Cruelty," by Joyce Carol Oats in the latest Harper's Magazine. Be nice to the next shop girl you meet. Strike up a conversation with her; you might even come to like her.


What century do you live in? Next you'll be saying all Asian girls ace in Math, have law degrees and still bind their feet.

I like my shop girls fine. Some of them are even good roofers, better than some of the men who work for me. You, however, appear to think some of us don't care for literature because we are "shop girls" who only read romances.

//still shaking my head at being called a shop girl in this century


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I am so sorry for your loss. Good people respect the gift of Cadbury.


Cadbury.....









But, to answer the question:


Matt Ryan said:


> Would you negatively judge a romance book if it has a males name on it?


Not on your life. I care about the gender of an author as much as I care about the gender of a coworker. As long as you do your job, what body part is (or isn't) hanging out in your nether regions hasn't the slightest impact. Whether you opt for a gender-neutral pen name or not, best of luck to you!


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Desmond X. Torres said:


> No, it's a tragedy.
> And lacks a HEA or HFN ending.


Sure, it has a real life ending rather than a fantasy, but it is still a classic love story. Men can clearly write about romantic love. If Merlin appeared and restored life it would have a happy ending.

Prior to relatively recent times romances did not require a happy ending - only brothels did. If you read French/Italian/Russian romantic fiction that was written - not set - in the 16th/17th/18th century they often had less than happy endings. They were classified as romantic fiction, or love stories - there was no "Romance" in those days.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

JanThompson said:


> See, that's my issue, you know. If "there's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well," then why did you have to "hide" behind a female pen name? It's the perception, isn't it, of HQN readers?


Could it be prejudice, simple and pure? Nah, it couldn't be, could it?


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

TonyWrites said:


> No, my idea of romance _isn't_ Hemingway. I was just listing it as a love story I have read.
> My goal is to write a romance that blends the traditional happy ending of genre romance with some deep literary introspection on the part of the main character and the woman he loves. That is possible, is it not?


Of course it's possible. Also I won't say Romance is devoid of deep literary introspection. I'm not familiar with the genre. But I'd guess authors run from bad-boy virginity popping tales to serious but happy ending.

Also there's Nick Hornby. He write love stories that end happily but they don't get classified as romances.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> Sure, it has a real life ending rather than a fantasy, but it is still a classic love story.


I'm not sure I'd call anything about the rather contrived ending of Romeo & Juliet "real life."  In fact, I'd argue that the fact that those crazy kids had to be together, even if it meant *death*, is as much a fantasy as any happily-ever-after could hope to be. Most real people I know would rather live for, say, 40 more years.

Shakespeare knew good drama/tragedy, though my favorites of his are still the comedies.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> What century do you live in? Next you'll be saying all Asian girls ace in Math, have law degrees and still bind their feet.


Don't hit him with too much stuff all at once, Gennita. You know how easily rattled these time travelers are, especially the ones from the 1950s. He might freak out.

Hide your microwave! Put on some heels and pearls!


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> rior to relatively recent times romances did not require a happy ending - only brothels did. If you read French/Italian/Russian romantic fiction that was written - not set - in the 16th/17th/18th century they often had less than happy endings. They were classified as romantic fiction, or love stories - there was no "Romance" in those days.


And, oh, how I wish we would go back to "Romantic Fiction". I could actually read romance then because I wouldn't already know the ending. Knowing for sure there is a HEA ruins if for me.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I sure hope we can. I'm starting one tomorrow for my NaNo.


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## Charles Harvey (Dec 29, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> I sure hope we can. I'm starting one tomorrow for my NaNo.


Go Hugh, go!


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## Charles Harvey (Dec 29, 2010)

Sure men can write romance. But I think men have to let go and channel that inner feminine side. It has nothing to do with being gay or straight. It has all to do with becoming the character you are creating in that moment of creativity. If you don't get into your character, the voice of your character will be stiff and stereotypical in my opinion. After all, writing is just acting on paper--or on the computer screen.


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

I think we can. My WIP isn't a romance, exactly. It has a strong romance thread running through it (teen first love), but the romance isn't the central theme. And there's no HEA or HFN; in fact, whether the girl gets her boy or not is the minor cliff-hanger at the end, with the implied promise that it will be answered in the next book in the series. I'll admit that writing the romance scenes has been the biggest challenge of the whole story. I'm a guy, but I do read a fair amount of sweet romances, which has helped a lot. It will be interesting to see if readers feel I've done a good job with the romance elements.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I sure hope we can. I'm starting one tomorrow for my NaNo.


Are you going to use a pen name?


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> What century do you live in? Next you'll be saying all Asian girls ace in Math, have law degrees and still bind their feet.
> 
> I like my shop girls fine. Some of them are even good roofers, better than some of the men who work for me. You, however, appear to think some of us don't care for literature because we are "shop girls" who only read romances.
> 
> //still shaking my head at being called a shop girl in this century


I have not called you anything.

What seems to amaze those who have taken exception to my comments in this thread is the idea what we are not all identical, with identical tastes and preferences; that fifty percent men do not write or read Romance; that it is mainly a women's category; that not everyone reads at the same level or has the same interests. Those who read Literary Fiction do not necessarily read Romance, or Military, or any of a number of genres; just as those who read The New Yorker tend not to read People Magazine, etc. etc. And when it comes to standardized testing in the U.S, yes, Asians tend to score higher than other groups. That is an observed pattern of behavior. I do not like to argue with facts.

Look at it this way, if no one had any characteristics, how would you write your novel? What would you assume the reader understands when you use the words "man" or "woman" or "dog" or "wolf"? We are bound to assume something about a common language to write anything intelligible at all.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Hudson Owen said:


> I have not called you anything.
> 
> What seems to amaze those who have taken exception to my comments in this thread is the idea what we are not all identical, with identical tastes and preferences; that fifty percent men do not write or read Romance; that it is mainly a women's category; that not everyone reads at the same level or has the same interests. Those who read Literary Fiction do not necessarily read Romance, or Military, or any of a number of genres; just as those who read The New Yorker tend not to read People Magazine, etc. etc. And when it comes to standardized testing in the U.S, yes, Asians tend to score higher than other groups. That is an observed pattern of behavior. I do not like to argue with facts.
> 
> Look at it this way, if no one had any characteristics, how would you write your novel? What would you assume the reader understands when you use the words "man" or "woman" or "dog" or "wolf"? We are bound to assume something about a common language to write anything intelligible at all.


You didn't have to call me anything. You just put me and many, many women in our place with a few choice sentences.

I don't need to discuss about generalities with you. Everyone generalizes in some way, but you are using words that imply more than you realize. Shopgirl? That tells me more about you than the word itself.



> It's where the tormented, the frustrated, the weary, the shop girls, secretaries, wedding planners, meter maids, waitresses who will never become movie stars, who never get seats in the front row to feel the hot breath and heat from the loins of Justin Bieber, <snip>


And that above, says it all, about how you judge romance readers. I assure you, I'm not taking exception with the fact that we are different on this planet, with different tastes and beliefs. THAT is a general philosophy. I'm taking exception about your knowledge of the heat of Justin Bieber's loins.

Look at it this way. What would you assume from the words "misogynist," "patriarchal," and "anti-feminist?" Because those words are floating around like hot air elephants.


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## ToniD (May 3, 2011)

Well said, Gennita.

Hudson, sheesh, what amazes me is that you do not appear to understand the condescension in your term 'shop girls.'


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> You didn't have to call me anything. You just put me and many, many women in our place with a few choice sentences.
> 
> I don't need to discuss about generalities with you. Everyone generalizes in some way, but you are using words that imply more than you realize. Shopgirl? That tells me more about you than the word itself.
> 
> ...


Is Steve Martin a misogynist for writing the short novel "Shopgirl"?


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Hudson Owen said:


> Is Steve Martin a misogynist for writing the short novel "Shopgirl"?


You were quoting Steve Martin? You wild and crazy guy, you, reading a romantic dramedy.


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

Steve Martin is one the original ironic hipsters. Just saying.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

Caddy said:


> And, oh, how I wish we would go back to "Romantic Fiction". I could actually read romance then because I wouldn't already know the ending. Knowing for sure there is a HEA ruins if for me.


Amen.

Fact is, a vast majority of the general reading population doesn't realize that love stories aren't romance. Only hardcore romance readers know of the HEA or HFN requirement. I've even seen readers online saying they want to read a romance without an HEA. They don't get that it's a contradiction in terms and they'll never find what they're looking for in a romance even though it makes logical sense that a books whose main subject is the romantic love between two people would be shelved as romance.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> You were quoting Steve Martin? You wild and crazy guy, you, reading a romantic dramedy.


That's me, wild and crazy, and a little slow going down stairs. And he's my age too!


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

caethesfaron said:


> Amen.
> 
> Fact is, a vast majority of the general reading population doesn't realize that love stories aren't romance. Only hardcore romance readers know of the HEA or HFN requirement. I've even seen readers online saying they want to read a romance without an HEA. They don't get that it's a contradiction in terms and they'll never find what they're looking for in a romance even though it makes logical sense that a books whose main subject is the romantic love between two people would be shelved as romance.


I would like to see Love Story as a sub-category of Literary Fiction. Amazon does now have Romance as a sub-cat of lit fic, and for now, that's probably the closest we can get to Love Story.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

donnajherren said:


> I'm not sure I'd call anything about the rather contrived ending of Romeo & Juliet "real life."  In fact, I'd argue that the fact that those crazy kids had to be together, even if it meant *death*, is as much a fantasy as any happily-ever-after could hope to be. Most real people I know would rather live for, say, 40 more years.
> 
> Shakespeare knew good drama/tragedy, though my favorites of his are still the comedies.


You don't regard HEAs as contrived? I find them far more contrived that any Shakespearean effort. The divorce courts are full of the end result of "real" relationships, and youth suicide - often a result of breakups - is a growing problem in many western communities.

Maybe unrealistic expectations created by too many romances with HEAs is a factor in the suicides of so many young girls who are unable to handle "real life". (Or maybe it is just Twitter as much of our media insists.)


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I sure hope we can. I'm starting one tomorrow for my NaNo.


Dino-erotic doesn't count.

Wait, I can combo those: Dinorotic... I like that title. That title is freaking awesome. *Reworking romance around new title*

"A women meets a strange man who cries at double rainbows and has to watch dino porn to get off. Can she endure the constant costume changes? Will she go through with the surgeries to shorten her arms?"

This is totally what women want to read about. What was I thinking even mentioning men can't write romance! This is gold! #amwriting

Don't steal my stuff Hugh.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Uh, Hudson? Seriously?

*head*desk*


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## portlandrocks (Jul 18, 2013)

There are parts of this thread that make me sad but... 

Thank you everyone for your input. This has been a really amazing read. I have appreciated both the reader viewpoints as well as the writer viewpoints (both female and male). 

Certainly has got my wheels turning.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> Sure, it has a real life ending rather than a fantasy,


Okay, this is something that always makes me twitchy: *Tragedy is not the only aspect of real life*. I don't get how people can constantly pretend that this is the case unless their own personal lives are such a downward spiral of grief and pain that they are completely incapable of recognizing the moments of joy and light in even other peoples' lives.

Edit: Holy crap, did I just watch 'Women = -4STR transmute into 'Azn=+2Int' Did I fall through a rift into a world where Kboards is 4chan?


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Matt Ryan said:


> "A women meets a strange man who cries at double rainbows and has to watch dino porn to get off. Can she endure the constant costume changes? Will she go through with the surgeries to shorten her arms?"
> 
> This is totally what women want to read about. What was I thinking even mentioning men can't write romance! This is gold!


LMAO I just spit coffee all over the floor!


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Okay, this is something that always makes me twitchy: *Tragedy is not the only aspect of real life*. I don't get how people can constantly pretend that this is the case unless their own personal lives are such a downward spiral of grief and pain that they are completely incapable of recognizing the moments of joy and light in even other peoples' lives.
> 
> Edit: Holy crap, did I just watch 'Women = -4STR transmute into 'Azn=+2Int' Did I fall through a rift into a world where Kboards is 4chan?


That is a very good point. HFN and HEA are part of real life probably even more than non-stop tragedy and drama where you don't end up with your "soul mate". If you truly believe that is more real, well I hope your significant other doesn't find out. 

And even if a reader's life is full of tragedy and sadness they want a book to take them away from all that. I think it's cool to make someone feel good and happy, letting them escape from their troubles with your book versus more sadness.


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## Scott Daniel (Feb 1, 2011)

I recently published a romantic novelette under my pen name, PJ Lincoln. _In The Sunshine_ has only received a pair of reviews so far, both from women and both positive. While I use the initials, it's not an attempt to hide my being a guy - my author page shows a picture of me. I think most readers just want a good story ... I think gender is less important than some may think.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Okay, this is something that always makes me twitchy: *Tragedy is not the only aspect of real life*. I don't get how people can constantly pretend that this is the case unless their own personal lives are such a downward spiral of grief and pain that they are completely incapable of recognizing the moments of joy and light in even other peoples' lives.


Clearly you've never been to Eastern Europe.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Clearly you've never been to Eastern Europe.


Or Staten Island....


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## Robert Gregory Browne (Mar 10, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> I'm curious on your opinion on using a pen name with initials for the first name versus a female pen name. And how far do you go? Do you get a stock photograph of a woman, create a bio? Thanks for your insight on this topic!


Sorry I took so long to respond to this. I was finishing a book.

I think initials work just fine, but I went with a combination of my children's names to create a first and last, and used a non-photo with a bio that was vague but true.


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## Robert Gregory Browne (Mar 10, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> See, that's my issue, you know. If "there's no reason whatsoever that men can't write romance and do it well," then why did you have to "hide" behind a female pen name? It's the perception, isn't it, of HQN readers?


I think Harlequin readers prefer female writers when it comes to the type of HPA romance that Harlequin sells. I could, of course, be entirely wrong about this.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> I think Harlequin readers prefer female writers when it comes to the type of HPA romance that Harlequin sells. I could, of course, be entirely wrong about this.


Gilbert Morris writes historical romance and he is an elderly gentleman.

(What's with elderly gentlemen knowing how to write romance? Harken to the good old days, I suppose.)

This one is not out yet so no reviews. But IIRC Morris started out writing westerns.









http://www.amazon.com/Sabrinas-Man-Western-Gilbert-Morris/dp/1616267593/

"This is a wonderful historical with romance, mystery, and characters who are sweet, cunning, and determined to get the upper hand on the bad guys. Historical details are written so well that readers can visualize the sights and sounds of Indian country. Morris is an amazing writer; he brings to life the 19th century - the good and the bad - with style and grace.: - (Patsy Glans RT Book Reviews 2013-10-16)


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## Robert Gregory Browne (Mar 10, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> Gilbert Morris writes historical romance and he is an elderly gentleman.


True, but he doesn't write for Harlequin as far as I know.

I think it really does boil down to what type of romance you want to write. If you're doing the happily ever after category stuff that Harlequin specializes in, you're probably better off using a female name.

If you write weepy tragic love stories ala Nick Sparks, you're fine using a male name. Apparently it's okay if you're writing historicals, too.


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## Suzan Butler (Apr 6, 2013)

DarkScribe said:


> You don't regard HEAs as contrived? I find them far more contrived that any Shakespearean effort. The divorce courts are full of the end result of "real" relationships, and youth suicide - often a result of breakups - is a growing problem in many western communities.
> 
> Maybe unrealistic expectations created by too many romances with HEAs is a factor in the suicides of so many young girls who are unable to handle "real life". (Or maybe it is just Twitter as much of our media insists.)


Really? This is the argument you're going with? That young girls are too dumb to understand the difference between real life and fiction?

Personally, I like knowing there's an HEA/HFN. It doesn't spoil it for me, because I'm not reading it for the ending. I'm reading for the experience, of seeing how two characters grow and change through the story to get to that happy ending. it's the story and the characters that's important. And I will throw a book that categorizes itself as romance and doesn't deliver that happy ending. But i'd also do that for a mystery book that doesn't end in the crime being solved. Because that's an expectation of the genre. You pick up a romance, you expect that HEA. You pick up a mystery, you expect the book to solve a crime.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> True, but he doesn't write for Harlequin as far as I know.
> 
> I think it really does boil down to what type of romance you want to write. If you're doing the happily ever after category stuff that Harlequin specializes in, you're probably better off using a female name.
> 
> If you write weepy tragic love stories ala Nick Sparks, you're fine using a male name. Apparently it's okay if you're writing historicals, too.


Point taken. I think Gilbert Morris is more like the historical fiction version of Nicholas Sparks who seems to be only writing contemporary fiction.

However, in both cases, IMO from what I gathered, neither Morris nor Sparks writer straight romance (by RWA guidelines) because their books are more about people and relationships, as sappy as the stories might be.

IIRC Harlequin follows the RWA guidelines which are quite severe, IMO. There are some must-have ingredients. I am not sure what the gender bias is, but I don't think any of my brothers or male cousins (but I may be wrong LOL) would want to read something that has this formula:

http://www.rwa.org/p/cm/ld/fid=578

*"A Central Love Story: The main plot centers around individuals falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work. A writer can include as many subplots as he/she wants as long as the love story is the main focus of the novel." - RWA*


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Suzan Butler said:


> Really? This is the argument you're going with? That young girls are too dumb to understand the difference between real life and fiction?
> 
> Personally, I like knowing there's an HEA/HFN. It doesn't spoil it for me, because I'm not reading it for the ending. I'm reading for the experience, of seeing how two characters grow and change through the story to get to that happy ending. it's the story and the characters that's important. And I will throw a book that categorizes itself as romance and doesn't deliver that happy ending. But i'd also do that for a mystery book that doesn't end in the crime being solved. Because that's an expectation of the genre. You pick up a romance, you expect that HEA. You pick up a mystery, you expect the book to solve a crime.


It's all fiction. Look where you're posting.

Yes, I find sugary happy endings forced, improbable, and phony. At no point did I mention "young girls" - your biases are showing.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Robert Gregory Browne said:


> True, but he doesn't write for Harlequin as far as I know.
> 
> I think it really does boil down to what type of romance you want to write. If you're doing the happily ever after category stuff that Harlequin specializes in, you're probably better off using a female name.
> 
> If you write weepy tragic love stories ala Nick Sparks, you're fine using a male name. Apparently it's okay if you're writing historicals, too.


There is a male author writing for Harlequin/Mills & Boon medical romance under his own name.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

CoraBuhlert said:


> There is a male author writing for Harlequin/Mills & Boon medical romance under his own name.


Brave man.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

DarkScribe said:


> It's all fiction. Look where you're posting.
> 
> Yes, I find sugary happy endings forced, improbable, and phony. At no point did I mention "young girls" - your biases are showing.


Yeah, only... you did:



DarkScribe said:


> You don't regard HEAs as contrived? I find them far more contrived that any Shakespearean effort. The divorce courts are full of the end result of "real" relationships, and youth suicide - often a result of breakups - is a growing problem in many western communities.
> 
> *Maybe unrealistic expectations created by too many romances with HEAs is a factor in the suicides of so many young girls who are unable to handle "real life". (Or maybe it is just Twitter as much of our media insists.)*


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