# It's Not A Marathon



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Can we just retire that stupid analogy? Please? It has nothing to do with being successful in business.

In a marathon, you have to pace yourself because there is an end point.  You still run the absolute fastest you can to hit that end point with the desired time and to the best of your ability, but you know you can run out of gas and still get to your end point.

In publishing, there is no end point. There is no magical finite pool of readers or money that you have to be careful not to drain too quickly.

You want to walk in this biz to pace yourself? You are just going to get places more slowly. You might not even get anywhere at all.  Think of it like catching a "success" bus that never stops (and randomly throws you off it, ha). People who run faster, who plot out where the bus will pass, who try different ways of getting on that bus... those people are a lot more likely to catch the bus than people who stand around thinking "hey, the bus might pass here, and I'm gonna wait it out for the long haul."

It's a painful truth but... success breeds more success. And there is no level of success where you can stop sprinting to catch the bus and maintain where you are at. Won't happen.  You cannot walk in this business or stand around and expect that in a magical someday you will wake up and be successful.  You might as well wrap yourself in tinfoil, go stand in a field, and hope you get hit by lightning and wake up with superpowers.

So maybe next time you hear yourself saying "it's a marathon"... think about why you are saying that. Think about why you have resistance to doing things that will bring you success right now, about why you need to tell yourself that success will show up later... because later? It's like saying "I'll do X tomorrow."  You can't keep saying that. At some point you have to suck it up and do things TODAY, or else tomorrow and later and someday will always be over the horizon and out of your grasp.

It's not a marathon. You want success? Start sprinting. Start planning. Go find the bus.

(*caveat because I'm sure people will chime in about it... I am defining "success" here as gaining readership and making money. I'm talking about the business side of things. I realize there are many kinds of success, but for the purpose of this post, I'm talking specifically about having an ever widening pool of readers who are willing to fork over hard cash to you for your books. If that isn't success to you, clearly this thread isn't aimed at you. If you don't care about money and the business side of things, cheers to you. This post is about publishing as a business.  )


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Annie B said:


> (*caveat because I'm sure people will chime in about it... I am defining "success" here as gaining readership and making money. I'm talking about the business side of things. I realize there are many kinds of success, but for the purpose of this post, I'm talking specifically about having an ever widening pool of readers who are willing to fork over hard cash to you for your books. If that isn't success to you, clearly this thread isn't aimed at you. If you don't care about money and the business side of things, cheers to you. This post is about publishing as a business.  )


It's not an either/or situation, you know. The dichotomy as you paint it doesn't exist. Even writers who don't want to make compromises in their writing like to make a living. Go figure. 

The suggestion that if you don't sacrifice everything, including your firstborn, for the mighty dollar you "don't care about money," is so obviously simplistic that it becomes hard to believe intelligent people still try to make it.

I really wish people would stop these primitive and denigrating put downs.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Where did I say sacrifice all? That has nothing to do with my post... Maybe read the whole post and not just the caveat?

What I'm saying is that I think the mentality that somehow if you move slowly and keep your head down, you'll get somewhere eventually is a flawed mentality, because you'll get places a lot faster and probably to more places if you pick your head up, pay attention, move faster, and start aiming for success today, not tomorrow or in a vague someday.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

I think the marathon analogy has more to do with keeping a steady pace than anything. At least, it does for me.
If I think of this as a sprint, I'm going to work my ass off for days into weeks into months, then completely burn out and fail.
If I think of it as a marathon, I'm going to build sustainable habits, working my way up day by day, getting stronger, faster, building my stamina to the point that I can improve my running speed but still keep it all going.

The idea that you have to sprint sprint sprint all the time... well there's a reason people don't run marathons that way. You'd end up laying on the tarmac gasping for breath while all the success passes you by on its way to the finish line.  

I understand what you're saying... and I think it comes from people saying that because they are looking for a way to excuse their lack of motivation or slow progress? in some cases anyway? 
But I can't agree that the marathon analogy isn't a good one. It has its merits. You just have to look at it the right way.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Annie B said:


> Where did I say sacrifice all? That has nothing to do with my post... Maybe read the whole post and not just the caveat?
> 
> What I'm saying is that I think the mentality that somehow if you move slowly and keep your head down, you'll get somewhere eventually is a flawed mentality, because you'll get places a lot faster and probably to more places if you pick your head up, pay attention, move faster, and start aiming for success today, not tomorrow or in a vague someday.


Then say that. And stop the put downs like "if you don't care about money." Most of us care about money.

Frankly, I admire you, and I love your posts. There's an awful lot I and others can learn from you. I just wish these simplistic either/or comparisons, which by their very nature are wrong, would go away.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Interesting opinion, Annie, but it assumes everyone has the same say in whether they succeed or not and at what speed. The real painful truth is that most writers will not achieve financial success regardless of whether they are Olympic sprinters or hitching a ride on a turtle.

And the marathon analogy is perfect for someone who achieves success over a long period of time. It denotes determination and perseverance and delivers a great deal of satisfaction. That's hardly a stupid analogy; it's an accurate one.

I would assume everyone would choose fast success over slow. Nice if you have the choice.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I partially agree with your post but partially disagree. While you're probably not going to exhaust your pool of readers, time itself actually is finite. So with that time you have to decide if you will weigh yourself down by writing as fast as possible, or pacing yourself and coming up with that one good idea that takes you to the next level. 

It only takes one book. There's droves and droves of books being poured into the bookstore every day that go relatively unnoticed. A marathoner who isn't feeling burnt out from pushing their business might have that "AHA!" moment a little easier.

Sometimes I sprint and sometimes I relax. My most successful books have came when I paced myself.

Also, I try to have a life outside of writing. I'd be pretty sad if I suddenly "made it big" in writing then looked around me and realized that I had sacrificed my golden years and nothing but money to show for it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm not talking about the writing. I'm talking about people saying "oh well, my sales are low, but this is a marathon, not a sprint, so it's okay, they'll get better later" like that means anything. That's what annoys me, I guess.  Odds are... those sales won't get better. Low sales almost always lead to lower sales which lead to no sales. The long tail can and will drop to 0 without help.

In the writing side, yes, of course you have to pace yourself (and only you know what that pace is, though again I'd argue that if you aren't seeing results on the business side, perhaps you need to figure out a new pace or method for the production side too), but that's not the business side. There's no reason on the business side to pace yourself. Chase the sales, try new things all the time if you aren't seeing the results you want, test new books and new descriptions and new covers, widen your funnels and take risks, that sort of thing.

I made the caveat that I am defining success for the purpose of this post as X. Geez. If you don't define it as X, then ignore my post, it isn't about your definition of success. How is that a put down? 

Steve- that's kind of my point though. I used to believe that success would happen in tiny drips and drabs over some magical long term. That it was like filling a bucket. But it is more like filling a sieve in my experience. You put drips in, and they run out again or evaporate. 

Perseverance is absolutely key, but just doing the same thing over and over is unlikely to result in success. 

And we have control over a lot more than I think people give credit for in this business. We control what we write. We control how it is presented (cover, description, pricing etc). We control how often we release and where we sell our books (to an extent anyway). We control what formats our books are in. We control how we handle readership and build readership and how readers can find us (social media, websites etc). 

If something isn't working, try something new. Expand your horizons, don't just put your head down and keep doing more of same, plodding along.  We are in control of a lot more than we think.

And again... I am NOT talking about the production/writing side. I'm talking about the business of publishing. I am talking about the sales and marketing side of things.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

I definitely understand the book-selling _business_ is basically a never-ending war-zone.

Extremely competitive and highly unpredictable in many ways.

Not for the feint of heart


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Annie B said:


> I made the caveat that I am defining success for the purpose of this post as X. Geez. If you don't define it as X, then ignore my post, it isn't about your definition of success. How is that a put down?


That wasn't the put down, Annie.

You really don't understand, do you?  Okay, let it go...


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

I know exactly what you are talking about, Annie, but the implication of your argument is that everyone is on an equal footing, when what works for one person can be a career killer for another.

I absolutely agree that you should try something different if one thing isn't working, but in writing, you might have to adapt multiple times and a marathon can be the only way to get there, or find out how to get there. And if you have the belief and stamina, the marathon analogy is extremely helpful and motivating. I'm speaking form experience here


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

The marathon, or any other race analogy, isn't correct for the simple fact that there is no end. If you stop moving, whether it's sprinting or crawling, your career will die. Pacing for writing has zero to do with the publishing side of the business.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The marathon, or any other race analogy, isn't correct for the simple fact that there is no end. If you stop moving, whether it's sprinting or crawling, your career will die. Pacing for writing has zero to do with the publishing side of the business.


Yes. Thank you. Jana said it far more succinctly than I did. 

And Andrew- no, I guess I don't understand. I didn't mean any insult, I'm just pointing out and sharing thoughts about something I see repeated about the business side of things a lot that I feel is a potentially unhealthy mentality to have because it might stop people from achieving the things they could if they stopped thinking about this as some kind of race with an end point, and stopped thinking about business success like a bucket they can fill up. So... no insult meant. Seriously.

Vrabinec- I do see people say it about hte business side. People often say things like "It's okay that my books are only selling X, because this is a marathon, not a sprint" or "I wish I had more sales/reviews/readers/whatever, but I know this is a marathon, so I'll just keep going."

Which, you know... yes, keep going. But thinking that low sales will lead anywhere but to more low sales, or to no sales at all someday, just because you kept going? Can be a pretty damaging mentality.

I know. I used to live inside that mentality. I used to believe that I had a bucket and each sale put a drop in it and someday I'd have a full bucket.

The bucket has a hole in it. That's what I'm saying.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

You know what gets me about world class marathoners? They run absurdly fast. We're talking sub-5:30 miles for _26+ miles straight_. That's really fucking fast. They run that fast for over _two hours straight_. Maybe for them, they're pacing themselves, but I can't even sprint that fast. I was a more than adequate runner back when I was in the Army, and I've never been bothered to run even a _single_ mile that fast.

The point being that I think it _is_ a marathon, but people have no earthly idea what real talk marathoning is about. It's not about taking your time. It's not about pacing yourself. It's not about merely crossing the finish line...eventually. It's about training and practicing until hallucinations set in. It's about running until you're vomiting and stumbling and bleeding from your nipples. It's about doing something that most humans seriously aren't even capable of--never were, never will be, never _could_ be--let alone are willing to endure.

If we're not worried about your time, then practically anybody who can walk should be able to finish a marathon sooner or later. Some people probably are trying to run that sort of marathon, and that's fine. But if you're truly trying to succeed, to excel, to reach thousands of readers or earn six figures a year or five figures a month or anything else that's extraordinary...you might want to tape up those nipples.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> You know what gets me about world class marathoners? They run absurdly fast. We're talking sub-5:30 miles for _26+ miles straight_. That's really [expletive]ing fast. They run that fast for over _two hours straight_. Maybe for them, they're pacing themselves, but I can't even sprint that fast. I was a more than adequate runner back when I was in the Army, and I've never been bothered to run even a _single_ mile that fast.
> 
> The point being that I think it _is_ a marathon, but people have no earthly idea what real talk marathoning is about. It's not about taking your time. It's not about pacing yourself. It's not about merely crossing the finish line...eventually. It's about training and practicing until hallucinations set in. It's about running until you're vomiting and stumbling and bleeding from your nipples. It's about doing something that most humans seriously aren't even capable of--never were, never will be, never _could_ be--let alone are willing to endure.
> 
> If we're not worried about your time, then practically anybody who can walk should be able to finish a marathon sooner or later. Some people probably are trying to run that sort of marathon, and that's fine. But if you're truly trying to succeed, to excel, to reach thousands of readers or earn six figures a year or five figures a month or anything else that's extraordinary...you might want to tape up those nipples.


Haha. This is perfect, thank you. 

*gets the duct tape*


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I've always thought the it's a marathon, not a sprint analogy wasn't encouraging you to go slow, but telling you not to get discouraged if you don't see overnight success right away because like it nor not, it takes most writers time. I see a lot of writers on here say it took a year of working their butt off. Maybe I just took it differently than you did.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Annie B said:


> And Andrew- no, I guess I don't understand. I didn't mean any insult, I'm just pointing out and sharing thoughts about something I see repeated about the business side of things a lot that I feel is a potentially unhealthy mentality to have because it might stop people from achieving the things they could if they stopped thinking about this as some kind of race with an end point, and stopped thinking about business success like a bucket they can fill up. So... no insult meant. Seriously.


I never thought you deliberately went out of your way to insult people, Annie. Besides, I think you're right, and DWS isn't.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

When I started out, I thought sales would like a nice, gradual rise but I've found instead it's a steady, steady, leap. I went from double figures a month to triple in a leap, from triple to quadruple. I hit five figures a months for a while and found out that leap can be a downhill one too. 

And the leaps have all been through new book releases, permafrees and changes to sales platforms. At the moment, I'm trying to figure the strategy to make that next leap, back to five figures.

Btw, if I was to compare it to a sporting event, I'd say the decathlon or maybe the Iron Man.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Can we just retire that stupid analogy? Please? It has nothing to do with being successful in business.
> 
> In a marathon, you have to pace yourself because there is an end point. You still run the absolute fastest you can to hit that end point with the desired time and to the best of your ability, but you know you can run out of gas and still get to your end point.
> 
> ...


AMEN to all of this, Annie. 

"Success" for *me*, in this business, is "gaining readership and making money." It DOESN'T MATTER that if I never made any money from my writing I would STILL be able to eat, pay my mortgage, go on vacations, pay for the rest of my son's college tuition, get my nails done, attend pole dancing classes, and everything else in my life. Not having to struggle financially (a position many middle-aged people, like me, are in) actually makes it harder to push myself. However, pushing myself harder than ever, in this business, is what I'm NOW doing.

Not selling and not gaining readers is NOT what I want as an author. I've failed along the way, and I will continue to make mistakes, but I won't quit, and I will reach my goals.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> When I started out, I thought sales would like a nice, gradual rise but I've found instead it's a steady, steady, leap. I went from double figures a month to triple in a leap, from triple to quadruple. I hit five figures a months for a while and found out that leap can be a downhill one too.
> 
> And the leaps have all been through new book releases, permafrees and changes to sales platforms. At the moment, I'm trying to figure the strategy to make that next leap, back to five figures.
> 
> Btw, if I was to compare it to a sporting event, I'd say the decathlon or maybe the Iron Man.


That's what happened to me. At first I made less than ten bucks for a couple of months. Then I made 40-60. Then I made 250-800 for a few months.Now I'm low four figures. Haven't made five yet. I expect to stay at four for a while, or maybe that's the best I'll do. Unfortunately, we don't all get to five, but I'm hoping.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

kathrynoh said:


> Btw, if I was to compare it to a sporting event, I'd say the decathlon or maybe the Iron Man.


A swimming contest, maybe? In a shark tank?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

AuthorX said:


> Also, I try to have a life outside of writing. I'd be pretty sad if I suddenly "made it big" in writing then looked around me and realized that I had sacrificed my golden years and nothing but money to show for it.


I'm working hard, but I will always continue to take care of myself. You won't find me sitting in a chair all day and doing nothing else. NO WAY. You can be successful and still have a life. You can be a successful writer and still be healthy and fit. I make sure to follow my schedule. When I do that, I can have a life.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The marathon, or any other race analogy, isn't correct for the simple fact that there is no end. *If you stop moving,* whether it's sprinting or crawling, your career will die. Pacing for writing has zero to do with the publishing side of the business.


This is true. You can't just write one book and sit back expecting to see sales and reviews pour in. You have to _keep moving_ as in keep writing (among other things). There have been any number of threads over the past few years in which authors have said their sales didn't take off until they had X number of books under their belt. In other words, it took a lot of hard, steady work (write, publish, repeat) before seeing their desired results, which is building readership and seeing growing sales of the entire backlist. In that regard--and depending on each writer's definition of success--this "business" really does seem to be a marathon.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

kathrynoh said:


> When I started out, I thought sales would like a nice, gradual rise but I've found instead it's a steady, steady, leap. I went from double figures a month to triple in a leap, from triple to quadruple. I hit five figures a months for a while and found out that leap can be a downhill one too.
> 
> And the leaps have all been through new book releases, permafrees and changes to sales platforms. At the moment, I'm trying to figure the strategy to make that next leap, back to five figures.
> 
> Btw, if I was to compare it to a sporting event, I'd say the decathlon or maybe the Iron Man.


Yes. This is something else that I think about a lot, especially lately as my health has slowed me down a lot. Success isn't a perfect line pointing to the heavens. I'm making less sales with more books out than I was last fall, for example, for a number of factors. Income goes up and down. It's a lot more likely to go down than up.

As Jana said, stop moving, your success, whatever level it is at, will eventually die away. The higher you climbed, the slower the descent might be, but it will go down. If you are already on the low end of things, that 0 is going to come sooner than later. And the less momentum and success you have, the harder it will be to even regain what you had before, much less climb higher.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Why do people say it's a marathon and not a sprint?

Because they put their best work forward and it didn't pay off (enough).

Same type of philosophy as - Well, just because I'm down and out now, doesn't mean I'll always be here. OR - It's my first time publishing something and I don't expect much, cause, it's a marathon not a sprint.

In essence: I, WE, YOU, THEY, Have not reached our full potential yet. We're still trying and as long as we keep trying, there's a chance to succeed. 

There's always more that story, but I wouldn't deny anyone shouting that catchphrase in that context. They're being optimistic and they should be.

Of course, you can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. But everyone's journey / destination / future is part of one overlong marathon whether it ends in success or misfortune. The term sprint is, I feel, less about speed, and more about the short term. Which isn't quite the whole story. 

Let them have their silver lining.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I'm working hard, but I will always continue to take care of myself. You won't find me sitting in a chair all day and doing nothing else. NO WAY. You can be successful and still have a life. You can be a successful writer and still be healthy and fit. I make sure to follow my schedule. When I do that, I can have a life.


I was thinking about this yesterday. I want to spend a week in Austin and just have some fun. Then I started wondering what would happen if I didn't publish a story for a couple of weeks. Should we never take a vacation like a normal person? I'd be interested to hear how writers on strict schedules handle that. I think I saw an interview where Stephen King said he writes everyday, even on Christmas. I would think his wife and children must have not liked that.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

I always think of the 'marathon' thing as just a way of saying this is a long term career. Whether you achieve 'success' (whatever that is to you) from day one, or day 4357.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jena H said:


> This is true. You can't just write one book and sit back expecting to see sales and reviews pour in. You have to _keep moving_ as in keep writing (among other things). There have been any number of threads over the past few years in which authors have said their sales didn't take off until they had X number of books under their belt. In other words, it took a lot of hard, steady work (write, publish, repeat) before seeing their desired results, which is building readership and seeing growing sales of the entire backlist. In that regard--and depending on each writer's definition of success--this "business" really does seem to be a marathon.


But if you dig deeper into those stories... you'll see it wasn't having X number of books. It was having the right books (which sometimes involves a lot of trial and error and experimentation and writing things that don't sell well etc) and doing a lot of things besides just putting up books and hoping people would show up.

Volume is great and can't hurt. But volume without a plan for the business side of things beyond "write a lot" is likely to lead to frustration and stagnation.

I had nearly 40 titles up in Jan of 2014. That volume? Didn't do squat for me, because they weren't the right books for the kind of success I wanted (ie money and readership). All the drips into my bucket that those titles gave me just evaporated away because there was no actual momentum, no way to fill a bucket that was leaking. I didn't really understand this concept either until I wrote the right book(s) and started over essentially with a new plan. Then I saw it wasn't necessarily volume... it was having a plan and recognizing that I had a lot more control over the business side of things than I thought I did.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> I was thinking about this yesterday. I want to spend a week in Austin and just have some fun. Then I started wondering what would happen if I didn't publish a story for a couple of weeks. Should we never take a vacation like a normal person? I'd be interested to hear how writers on strict schedules handle that. I think I saw an interview where Stephen King said he writes everyday, even on Christmas. I would think his wife and children must have not liked that.


I write Monday through Friday, with weekends off. Period. If I fail to get all of the writing that I was supposed to get done during the week, then I don't get my weekends off.

I follow my schedule no matter where I am. For example, my husband and I will be going to Jamaica in November. I'll still be writing, I'll just be doing it while in a lounge chair.  Not following my schedule will NOT get me to my goals. I did that before, and it cost me.

Keep in mind, my kids are 20 and 23. One is at an internship with a major morning news program in New York and after that, he has one year left of college. The other graduated from college, is an accountant, and lives in her own apartment. So most of the time, it's just me and my husband. By now, he's used to my schedule.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Metaphors are always fallacies.

But I think that the "It's not a sprint ..." mentality actually has a very good place in this biz. I see so many people trying to promote a single book and getting frustrated. At that point, it's a lot better to put your head down and write. At that point you'll be working a second job--so you'll be doing maybe 1k words a day. You shouldn't hang out at this board at that point. At that point you should have some awesome betas and be working on making better books.

I think you're coming out of the DWS mindset where the way they framed a marathon was just to keep writing shorts and selling them at high prices? To me a marathon is just to keep going--trying new things on the business side, and keeping writing.

I did write an incredibly unbusiness savvy series (3rd person present tense ... and check out my covers!) My last installment took me six months, too, when I lost a big chunk of kidcare. It still has worked out.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> Metaphors are always fallacies.
> 
> But I think that the "It's not a sprint ..." mentality actually has a very good place in this biz. I see so many people trying to promote a single book and getting frustrated. At that point, it's a lot better to put your head down and write. At that point you'll be working a second job--so you'll be doing maybe 1k words a day. You shouldn't hang out at this board at that point. At that point you should have some awesome betas and be working on making better books.
> 
> ...


Again, I'm not talking about the writing though 

I'm talking about people who look at their low sales and say "it's a marathon" to themselves, ignoring that they have more control than that. That there are actively things they can do to get further down the road. The marathon idea on the business side seems to promote this idea that if you just keep doing whatever you are doing... those minimal sales and tiny readership will add up to something bigger someday. When the reality is... it will probably zero out instead.

So yes, keep going. Keep moving. But there is no end point, there is no special pace you are supposed to go to finish any race. There is no race. There is no bucket to fill. Without a strong head, there is no long tail.

Also... yes, your series worked out (I'd quibble with your calling it unbusiness savvy, given that it sells though I personally still think with different covers you could have a crazy winner on your hands  )... but I also imagine that if it weren't working out, you'd do other things and try new stuff and not sit back and say "oh well, eventually this might be successful and I'm sure it will work out because this is a marathon so slow is okay"


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I've definitely found the more money I spend, the more I make. Within reason, of course. I think it's important to differentiate between "vanity" spending (eg. paying $1000+ for a cover when you have low sales) and investment spending. I've seen people say they've applied to Bookbub, got knocked back so they aren't going to waste their time applying again and I don't get that at all. It takes what, less than 5 minutes to apply and the ROI is so huge. Even asking if they should book a BKnights promo on fiverr -- if it's money that means less food on the table for your kids then yeah, think hard about it but otherwise, it's five bucks!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Again, I'm not talking about the writing though


But aren't the writing and the business intertwined? And at the beginning, I think the really "businessy" side (promotions, classes like Mark D.'s FB classes) are wasted. You need books for those things to lead too.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Annie B said:


> But if you dig deeper into those stories... you'll see it wasn't having X number of books. It was having the right books (which sometimes involves a lot of trial and error and experimentation and writing things that don't sell well etc) and doing a lot of things besides just putting up books and hoping people would show up.
> 
> Volume is great and can't hurt. But volume without a plan for the business side of things beyond "write a lot" is likely to lead to frustration and stagnation.
> 
> I had nearly 40 titles up in Jan of 2014. That volume? Didn't do squat for me, because they weren't the right books for the kind of success I wanted (ie money and readership). All the drips into my bucket that those titles gave me just evaporated away because there was no actual momentum, no way to fill a bucket that was leaking. I didn't really understand this concept either until I wrote the right book(s) and started over essentially with a new plan. Then I saw it wasn't necessarily volume... it was having a plan and recognizing that I had a lot more control over the business side of things than I thought I did.


Writing for the market is exactly what I'm doing, most of the time. I haven't written a billionaire book, yet. But that doesn't mean I won't. LOL! Call me a hack if you'd like. I couldn't care less.

However, there are people who have gone their own way and have done well. Those people are rare, however.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> But aren't the writing and the business intertwined? And at the beginning, I think the really "businessy" side (promotions, classes like Mark D.'s FB classes) are wasted. You need books for those things to lead too.


True. I think you need two books for that stuff to start to work, if you are going that route. Book 1 and Book 2  However, I've seen people come up with really good launch plans for a single title (Jen Wells, Brenna Aubrey etc) and do amazing things with a single book.

So... to me it is a bit of myth that this is a magical threshold of books you have to hit before you can do the business stuff and promo side too. I think you should do it all, as much as you can, right from the start.

Fake it til you make it, basically


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

katrina46 said:


> I was thinking about this yesterday. I want to spend a week in Austin and just have some fun. Then I started wondering what would happen if I didn't publish a story for a couple of weeks. Should we never take a vacation like a normal person? I'd be interested to hear how writers on strict schedules handle that. I think I saw an interview where Stephen King said he writes everyday, even on Christmas. I would think his wife and children must have not liked that.


I take vacations and I travel. I don't work to an x no of words per day schedule but a release schedule. If I have a deadline, I meet it. At the moment, I'm travelling. I intended to have a short period of time off then a month in Prague to get back to work. Prague has not worked out like that though! I want my next novel out by the end of August though and I'm going to have it done, no matter what.

If you are releasing on weekly or fortnightly schedule, can you up the daily word count a bit to get cover the vacation period? Then have stuff to release while you are away.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Great post.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

kathrynoh said:


> I take vacations and I travel. I don't work to an x no of words per day schedule but a release schedule. If I have a deadline, I meet it. At the moment, I'm travelling. I intended to have a short period of time off then a month in Prague to get back to work. Prague has not worked out like that though! I want my next novel out by the end of August though and I'm going to have it done, no matter what.
> 
> If you are releasing on weekly or fortnightly schedule, can you up the daily word count a bit to get cover the vacation period? Then have stuff to release while you are away.


Everyone has to find their own way of doing it. For me, sticking to a daily word count, for each of my projects, is realistic. If I'm supposed to write 2,000 words for a particular project, I need to do that. Upping it to 4,000 words, when I know I have another 4,000 to do for my other projects, usually just puts me behind and gets me off track.

Side note: Traveling is something my husband and I do a lot, and Prague is on our bucket list.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I had nearly 40 titles up in Jan of 2014. That volume? Didn't do squat for me, because they weren't the right books for the kind of success I wanted (ie money and readership). All the drips into my bucket that those titles gave me just evaporated away because there was no actual momentum, no way to fill a bucket that was leaking. I didn't really understand this concept either until I wrote the right book(s) and started over essentially with a new plan. Then I saw it wasn't necessarily volume... it was having a plan and recognizing that I had a lot more control over the business side of things than I thought I did.


i'd be very interested in hearing more about your--and other kb'ers--plans. i understand the goals (readership, income) but how to form something coherent among the zillion biz/marketing options out there&#8230;that still eludes me.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I gave up the marathon analogy when I decided I wanted to do this for a living. Time(Money) waits for no man, or woman.

From what I have seen it takes books in a series to start and keep doing well. For a new author getting a list of books out is important. It's tough to make a living off of one book (your first book), but you need to have an idea if that book is sustainable, and maybe just needs more readers, or maybe it needs to be retired while you work on something else.

The fact is you should never stop writing, reading, and working on your craft.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The marathon, or any other race analogy, isn't correct for the simple fact that there is no end. If you stop moving, whether it's sprinting or crawling, your career will die. Pacing for writing has zero to do with the publishing side of the business.


I love writers who can say everything that needs to be said in a few sentences. Thanks, Jana.


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## horst5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Annie B. You are correct in your post and so are all the responses to your post.
However, I am a bit fed up with the terminology of "making" money.
I am 85 and I never "made" any money. I always "earned" it.
And, "earning" means working for it.
And, it seems that nobody wants to work anymore.
And, this is why I agree with you, Annie.
Horst 
,


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

kathrynoh said:


> Btw, if I was to compare it to a sporting event, I'd say the decathlon or maybe the Iron Man.


I'm going with the Iron Man.

FWIW, every very successful indie I know is sprinting. Lots of books, collaborations, pen names, multiple series. And they are working their butts off to understand how to market. Facebook ads, Twitter ads, co-ops, Facebook groups, pages, keeping reader engagement, learning how to use VAs most effectively.

As for sales, there are two possibilities: they are either going up or they are going down. When they go up, up, up, it's very exciting. But when they are going down? Everyone I know is sure their career is over. Here's the thing...every successful indie I know is sprinting through all of that.

I realize this sounds daunting and it's probably discouraging for people who want to write one or two books a year. But the harsh reality is that unless you are an extreme outlier, that's not going to cut it in indie if you're looking for sales volume.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> I'm going with the Iron Man.
> 
> FWIW, every very successful indie I know is sprinting. Lots of books, collaborations, pen names, multiple series. And they are working their butts off to understand how to market. Facebook ads, Twitter ads, co-ops, Facebook groups, pages, keeping reader engagement, learning how to use VAs most effectively.
> 
> ...


Yep, more yep.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> I'm going with the Iron Man.
> 
> FWIW, every very successful indie I know is sprinting. Lots of books, collaborations, pen names, *multiple series. *And they are working their butts off to understand how to market. Facebook ads, Twitter ads, co-ops, Facebook groups, pages, keeping reader engagement, learning how to use VAs most effectively.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would consider writing a series to be more like a marathon than a sprint. Or maybe a relay, with the same 'runner' running every leg. (Books = relay legs, and series = entire race. Or, writing = one leg, cover creation = another leg, marketing = leg after leg after leg, etc.) The point is, there is _always_ something else to be done as an independent writer: writing, budgeting, networking, cover design, marketing plans. Those too can all be seen as 'legs' of the race, or miles on the marathon, possibly even individual sprints. Whatever.

I guess there will be no consensus on this. Some people think in terms of sprints, some in terms of marathons, or even decathlons. There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG point of view on it.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Personally, I would consider writing a series to be more like a marathon than a sprint. Or maybe a relay, with the same 'runner' running every leg. (Books = relay legs, and series = entire race. Or, writing = one leg, cover creation = another leg, marketing = leg after leg after leg, etc.) The point is, there is _always_ something else to be done as an independent writer: writing, budgeting, networking, cover design, marketing plans. Those too can all be seen as 'legs' of the race, or miles on the marathon, possibly even individual sprints. Whatever.
> 
> I guess there will be no consensus on this. Some people think in terms of sprints, some in terms of marathons, or even decathlons. There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG point of view on it.


We can each call it whatever we want to. The analogy isn't matters to me in this conversation. My point is that everyone I know who is hugely successful is moving as fast as they can in all directions. Annie's point is that if your business isn't growing or sales are dying, you can't keep moving in the same direction at the same pace and expect things to improve. They won't most likely.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Whelp, at least I can't say nobody warned me about the doom and gloom that await me.


I was about to suggest we replace "marathon" with "Sisyphean ordeal," but maybe that's not motivating enough?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Deanna Chase said:


> We can each call it whatever we want to. The analogy isn't matters to me in this conversation. My point is that everyone I know who is hugely successful is moving as fast as they can in all directions. Annie's point is that if your business isn't growing or sales are dying, you can't keep moving in the same direction at the same pace and expect things to improve. They won't most likely.


Right. And once you get momentum, you can't relax. You've got to keep doing what you're doing.

Everyone talks about getting there. Getting there may not be as hard for some people as it is staying there.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> We can each call it whatever we want to. The analogy isn't matters to me in this conversation. My point is that everyone I know who is hugely successful is moving as fast as they can in all directions. Annie's point is that if your business isn't growing or sales are dying, you can't keep moving in the same direction at the same pace and expect things to improve. They won't most likely.


Yes. That was exactly my point.

And there are, in fact, wrong ways to go about things in this business. Believing there is no wrong way can blind one to the better ways and be a danger all in itself. However, yes, there is no one *right* way. There are multiple right ways (though many of those paths share the same foundations and a lot of the same blueprints), but there are also multiple wrong ways, too, if financial success and wide readership are your goals.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> I was about to suggest we replace "marathon" with "Sisyphean ordeal," but maybe that's not motivating enough?


"Sisyphean ordeal" is a more accurate term, but "marathon" uses less words. Wright tight.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I often think that people use the "marathon" analogy in terms of sales. I get that in a way. Annie is right, though. You have to have the right books. If you have forty books but they all don't manage to "brand together" and funnel into one another you're not only losing the race, you're throwing up hurdles in your own path. I see people say "I have twenty books. Why am I not making it?" When you look at those books you see things like raising backyard horses, one romance novel, one science fiction novel, two parts of an abandoned serial, two short stories, etc. That's not even the same race. It's eight overlapping races.
In this business you have to produce a lot to succeed. There are very few exceptions to that (there are always a few, though). If you want to think of that as a sprint, that's fine. I merely think of it as work that has to be done. Three weeks out of every month I have to write twent-five chapters a week. Period. If I don't get it done weekdays then I have to do it weekends. Audio books threw me off this week, so I shall be writing. It has to get done, so I do it. I honestly believe it's those coming up with excuses for why they didn't finish the work and refusing to make it up and instead pushing it off who aren't going to finish the race.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Maybe let me phrase it another way. Success is not a destination. You cannot put one foot in front of the other and expect to "arrive" at a finish line.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I think in regard to the marathon thing it's a case of semantics. I see it as a marathon, yet I totally agree one can't sit still and hope, nor can they refuse to try new ways to market. For me, the marathon means to keep writing, keep trying marketing and advertising ideas, and to not sit still when you see a few months of financial success. I'm doing decently now, with a humble living being made from my books across all retail markets. I'm well aware that can change and fall at any time. It could also grow at any time. So the marathon continues. I have to keep putting out work and marketing. 

I also think people misunderstand writing to market. There is more than one market, after all. Not every reader on the planet reads romance or erotica. Some of those other markets are tougher to crack and DO take longer. And then it's more of a marathon gaining readers...but certainly you don't sit still and wait for them to come to you. In markets (read genres)where the readers are tougher to find, sitting still and dreaming will be even less successful than in markets where there are a ton of avid readers.  But, still, because they are a different type of reader, or less easy to find on social media, etc

Also, even in markets (genres) that have a ton of avid readers it is VERY easy to get caught up in sitting around and talking about books than in writing and marketing. For example, I write m/m romance under a pen name. Oh my God, the amount of photos of sexy men people who read and write this genre put up every day, and then sit around and talk about the sexy men...if I spent the time some of these people do talking about men who either don't really exist or are models and touched up in the photos I'd get one book out every five years. So, in that case I sprint, offering a few comments/likes and moving on...trying to keep going in the marathon of handling 2 names, writing in one genre that doesn't have a lot of readers easily grabbed, and managing my time in the other.

So, for me, it is a marathon or endurance and dedication on both sides: writing and business. However, since I don't write on vacations or nights or weekends, my plans are different most most. And probably my goals are, too. You know, a very nice income can be made at 4 figures a month. Not everyone needs to make over $100,000 a year to be financially successful. It depends on what material things you desire. I'm older and I've been that route. A lot of things I thought important simply aren't. People and time with them are far more important than if I have a fancy car or the best house in the area. I'm not talking crappy stuff, but I'm okay with paying bills, going out to eat, to a movie, and having money to travel once in awhile but not staying in the fanciest place possible. And I'm not saying everyone who makes a big amount of money cares about that. I'm just saying making 4 figures a month isn't anything to sneeze at, either. After all, even $9,000 a month is 4 figures a month.  And $4,000 a month is $48,000 a year...not rich by any means but people can live on it.  It all depends on what you want out of life. And also if you are the only income earner.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Annie B said:


> Maybe let me phrase it another way. Success is not a destination. You cannot put one foot in front of the other and expect to "arrive" at a finish line.


That's true. However, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone use a marathon analogy to imply that there is an actual end. That isn't the point of the analogy. Maybe I've been missing all the posts where people say if I keep doing the same thing that isn't succeeding I will eventually succeed and cross the finish line. People do post all sorts of ridiculous things here,so it's possible I've just missed them.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Maybe let me phrase it another way. Success is not a destination. You cannot put one foot in front of the other and expect to "arrive" at a finish line.


So true in a way. Again, semantics.You better have your eyes open and make sure you're on the right road to where you want to go. And don't put blinders on and refuse to see all of a sudden your "road" is under construction or closed down and you better take an alternate route with the same trip in mind. 



Monique said:


> That's true. However, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone use a marathon analogy to imply that there is an actual end. That isn't the point of the analogy. Maybe I've been missing all the posts where people say if I keep doing the same thing that isn't succeeding I will eventually succeed and cross the finish line. People do post all sorts of ridiculous things here,so it's possible I've just missed them.


Agreed. I think we're all saying kind of the same thing in a different way. lol Although you're right about some of the things posted here.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Monique said:


> That's true. However, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone use a marathon analogy to imply that there is an actual end. That isn't the point of the analogy. Maybe I've been missing all the posts where people say if I keep doing the same thing that isn't succeeding I will eventually succeed and cross the finish line. People do post all sorts of ridiculous things here,so it's possible I've just missed them.


There have been posts that basically seem like people saying "it's a marathon" to excuse not actively doing things that could sell books for them. I made this post as a general frustration with that mentality, because I see people post they are sad about not selling or they wish they could sell like X person does, but instead they do the forum equivalent of throwing up their hands and usually then say something like "well, it's okay. I'm in this for the long term rewards, not the short term rewards. It's a marathon, not a sprint."

At some point you have to figure out how to be successful NOW, or you'll be waiting for success tomorrow and tomorrow will always be over the horizon. So that's my issue with the marathon idea. I just feel the analogy is flawed when it comes to the business side of things because it does sort of treat this as success being a distant thing that will arrive someday if only you put one foot in front of the other.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

A lot of people at Writers' Cafe judge financial success by their own situations, forgetting that each of us come from various financial backgrounds and lifestyles.  If a person's goal is $2,000 a month, and they're fine with that, that's their business, not yours.  Mind your own business and your own affairs.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> A lot of people at Writers' Cafe judge financial success by their own situations, forgetting that each of us come from various financial backgrounds and lifestyles. If a person's goal is $2,000 a month, and they're fine with that, that's their business, not yours. Mind your own business and your own affairs.
> 
> Yup. And some may want an extra $500 a month to pay off student loans or to save for an extra vacation. Sometimes here in Writers' Cafe it seems like people feel you're only successful if you make five, six figures a month. It's great if it happens but it's not everyone's goal. It's not mine, but I wouldn't give the money back. LOL If it happens because of my hard work, cool, but I'll consider myself a success with much less.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> But aren't the writing and the business intertwined? And at the beginning, I think the really "businessy" side (promotions, classes like Mark D.'s FB classes) are wasted. You need books for those things to lead too.


No. Being a writer is one profession. Being a publisher is another. A publisher would only buy and publish books they think would make a profit, and then they'd market them accordingly. Yes, we are performing both jobs, but we should approach them in completely different manners. Writing is a very personal thing and should come from your soul. Publishing has no room for feelings. You should approach it as a third party would anyone else's work and conduct your business accordingly. Which means making tough decisions like "this series isn't working, I should kill it." Or "I will no longer publish _____ because it doesn't sell." Even though you are the author. You have to separate your work from the publishing side of the business.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> No. Being a writer is one profession. Being a publisher is another. A publisher would only buy and publish books they think would make a profit, and then they'd market them accordingly. Yes, we are performing both jobs, but we should approach them in completely different manners. Writing is a very personal thing and should come from your soul. Publishing has no room for feelings. You should approach it as a third party would anyone else's work and conduct your business accordingly. Which means making tough decisions like "this series isn't working, I should kill it." Or "I will no longer publish _____ because it doesn't sell." Even though you are the author. You have to separate your work from the publishing side of the business.


THIS. When we self-publish, we are doing two jobs.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Maybe let me phrase it another way. Success is not a destination. You cannot put one foot in front of the other and expect to "arrive" at a finish line.


Success is definitely a destination. Not everyone shall arrive. Those who don't continue to put one foot in front of the other and they keep going.

Hope keeps their dreams alive. Focusing on a bright future helps them to deal with the unsatisfying now.

Those who aren't selling right now it's due to a reason. Genre, poor writing / covers / editing / blurb, lack of marketing and luck. Among other things. If what you're doing isn't selling to meet your goals, then yes, you definitely need to change your strategy. That's part of the marathon. Those who were doing well in KU1 need to alter strategy to do well in KU2. Well, at least some of us do.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

> Yup. And some may want an extra $500 a month to pay off student loans or to save for an extra vacation. Sometimes here in Writers' Cafe it seems like people feel you're only successful if you make five, six figures a month. It's great if it happens but it's not everyone's goal. It's not mine, but I wouldn't give the money back. LOL If it happens because of my hard work, cool, but I'll consider myself a success with much less.


Absolutely. And some of us have spouses. Some of us have investments. Some of us don't need the money from writing to survive.

I'm working hard, and I'll take whatever money comes my way - don't get me wrong. But I'm doing it for ME. I'm not doing it to satisfy some financial standard set by some fill-in-the-blank author.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> A lot of people at Writers' Cafe judge financial success by their own situations, forgetting that each of us come from various financial backgrounds and lifestyles. If a person's goal is $2,000 a month, and they're fine with that, that's their business, not yours. Mind your own business and your own affairs.


I have no problem with anyone's goal. Those are personal. I think Annie's problem is people who COMPLAIN about not selling books but sit on their rear and do nothing to actually sell books, then excuse their laziness as "it's a marathon." Like sales will miraculously materialize at some point even with no effort.

The bottom line is there is no end. A lot of people would look at my career and say I've made it. Trust me. I haven't. I have had huge success and I'm thrilled beyond belief with it, but am also well aware that I am only as good as my last book, and I will only be remembered so long after my last release. That's the business we're in. Sometimes reality isn't pretty.

[/quote]


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Absolutely. And some of us have spouses. Some of us have investments. Some of us don't need the money from writing to survive.
> 
> I'm working hard, and I'll take whatever money comes my way - don't get me wrong. But I'm doing it for ME. I'm not doing it to satisfy some financial standard set by some fill-in-the-blank author.


Which is nice, but doesn't really relate to this thread  I'm talking about success in terms of growing your business and making money. That's why I said so in the original post. I'm talking about people who complain they want more sales and more readers, but then throw up their hands and use the marathon excuse.

Shane- it is not a destination. There is no level at which if you sell at that level you will sell there forever. Not even JK Rowling stays on the bestseller lists.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jolie du Pre said:


> A lot of people at Writers' Cafe judge financial success by their own situations, forgetting that each of us come from various financial backgrounds and lifestyles. If a person's goal is $2,000 a month, and they're fine with that, that's their business, not yours. Mind your own business and your own affairs.


Yes, my goal is 4,000 a month. After taxes it's what I made on my day job, plus 500 a month for savings and one one nice vacation per year. I'm low four figures now, so that's probably doable by Christmas. I wouldn't feel any less successful than someone making 50k a month because I reached my goal. I am the type that is fine with wearing payless shoes and flying coach, so if I made 50k it'd probably just sit in the bank anyway. But like someone said, I wouldn't give it back. I even hope for it, but I wouldn't get depressed if it never happened.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Whenever I heard the marathon-sprint analogy, I took it as a reminder to think long-term instead of short-term. In that sense, it was helpful to me. It did NOT help me create a sense of urgency in my writing discipline, however. So I didn't apply it there.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Which is nice, but doesn't really relate to this thread  I'm talking about success in terms of growing your business and making money. That's why I said so in the original post. I'm talking about people who complain they want more sales and more readers, but then throw up their hands and use the marathon excuse.


Sorry for not relating to your thread. I'm done here, anyway.

And since I'm not a person who complains about wanting more sales and more readers, but rather a person who is doing what needs to be done to get more sales and more readers, I'm on the right track.

You have a nice weekend.


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## daffodils321 (Oct 31, 2014)

Totally get what you are saying. And I totally agree 

Nothing to add really. Just wanted to say I really appreciate this post. 

Also great points Deanna.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jolie du Pre said:


> A lot of people at Writers' Cafe judge financial success by their own situations, forgetting that each of us come from various financial backgrounds and lifestyles. If a person's goal is $2,000 a month, and they're fine with that, that's their business, not yours. Mind your own business and your own affairs.


Not sure what this has to do with this thread. Obviously, people have different definitions of success and some have sugar daddies, mommies, cousin-wives paying their way and situations vary. What am I missing? Who is telling them that they must reach X as defined as Y to be successful?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> Yes, my goal is 4,000 a month. After taxes it's what I made on my day job, plus 500 a month for savings and one one nice vacation per year. I'm low four figures now, so that's probably doable by Christmas. I wouldn't feel any less successful than someone making 50k a month because I reached my goal. I am the type that is fine with wearing payless shoes and flying coach, so if I made 50k it'd probably just sit in the bank anyway. But like someone said, I wouldn't give it back. I even hope for it, but I wouldn't get depressed if it never happened.


I'm not a brand buff for anything but shoes (and maybe some electronics). I'm going to have nightmares now that you've mentioned Payless.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Donna White Glaser said:


> Whenever I heard the marathon-sprint analogy, I took it as a reminder to think long-term instead of short-term. In that sense, it was helpful to me. It did NOT help me create a sense of urgency in my writing discipline, however. So I didn't apply it there.


Thinking long term though often means thinking short term. How do I get readers to pick up my book *today*. How do I make sure I'm hitting my target audience *today*. How do I grow my readership and hit my financial goals for this day/month/year etc? If you aren't hitting short term goals, the long term ones will remain in that nebulous long term and far away.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

It's not a Marathon

Maybe it's more like _The Long Walk _and anyone who goes too slow gets killed.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm not a brand buff for anything but shoes (and maybe some electronics). I'm going to have nightmares now that you've mentioned Payless.


It's funny you say that, because I just went out to breakfast wearing my new payless sandals and the waitress said they were the cutest shoes she'd ever seen in her life. I got them buy a pair get another half off, so I paid like 12 bucks. They are gorgeous if I do say so myself. I came back to edit and say I buy brand electronics, but that's just smart shopping. For a few hundred dollars more you can get a computer that won't go out on you for a long time. Any cheap computer I've ever bought never lasted even two years. I mean I'm a writer. I use it a lot.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Thinking long term though often means thinking short term. How do I get readers to pick up my book *today*. How do I make sure I'm hitting my target audience *today*. How do I grow my readership and hit my financial goals for this day/month/year etc? If you aren't hitting short term goals, the long term ones will remain in that nebulous long term and far away.


This is actually why I made the decision to go back into KU. Because right NOW, with my books and my individual situation, that's my best spot for making money. Maybe I'd make more in the long-term by sucking it up now and going wide. But I'm the primary breadwinner, and the stress of that has really eaten at me. Who knows what the publishing landscape, or my books' sales, will look like next year? Besides, I have things I want to do. If I get more sales and garner more readers now, whether that's through Amazon or somebody else, that's better than NOT doing those things.

Plus, writing new series. Much of my success has actually come from branching out and trying slightly different things (still within romance). That's ALWAYS felt risky. But it's been more satisfying, and it's widened my pool of readers.

But, yes. It's all risky. Every new step feels so risky and scary. And when it doesn't work out, you can feel like, "OMG it's all OVER." Which is when you have to go to Plan B, or Plan C.

Writing is easy for me. Writing is fun. It doesn't feel like a job. Publishing is hard. If Montlake wanted me to write for them all the time, I'd take that in a heartbeat. I'm not ashamed to confess it. Being indie is stressful and difficult for that reason. You're constantly adapting and swerving, and unless you have nerves of steel, that's scary. But that IS the business--and nobody wanted to publish me in the beginning. Indie got me here, and thank goodness for it, and for Amazon. But it's scary and it's risky and it's a lot of work to keep sprinting for that bus. Most indies I know feel like they're constantly pushing that boulder up the hill, or they will be tomorrow if they let up. How to balance that with having a life? I'm still working on that one. My husband would tell you that I'm not doing very well at it so far.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Whenever I see "It's a marathon, not a sprint," I cringe--mainly because it's a cliche. So in Marathon vs. Sprint, I'm siding with Sprint, since a sprint leaves no time to beat a dead horse, lead a horse to water, eat a horse, look a gift horse in the mouth, identify a horse of a different color, get on your high horse, visit a one-horse town, hold your horses, change horses in midstream, or jockey for position.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> It's funny you say that. Because I just went out to breakfast wearing my new payless sandals and the waitress said they were the cutest shoes she'd ever seen in her life. I got them buy pair get another half off, so I paid like 12 bucks. They are gorgeous if I do say so myself.


I probably have more than a hundred pairs of shoes. Most are sneakers. I also like boots and J-41 outdoor hoppers. I probably have forty pairs of sandals total, too. I'm addicted to Converse. You literally couldn't pay me to go into a Payless, lol. I am a shoe Nazi. I cannot explain it. The UPS guy delivered two boxes (three pairs) of shoes from Journeys on Friday and just laughed when he handed them to me. "You buy a lot of shoes, lady."


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

For me "It's a marathong, not a sprint." means if you see one good month, don't think your work is done. The good months don't keep going without work.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Mike McIntyre said:


> Whenever I see "It's a marathon, not a sprint," I cringe--mainly because it's a cliche. So in Marathon vs. Sprint, I'm siding with Sprint, since a sprint leaves no time to beat a dead horse, lead a horse to water, eat a horse, look a gift horse in the mouth, identify a horse of a different color, get on your high horse, visit a one-horse town, hold your horses, change horses in midstream, or jockey for position.


...and now I want a horse. Or possibly a pony. 

I agree that it's not a marathon (I get what you're trying to say, Annie). I'm not sure there's an apt analogy for succeeding in this business -- maybe it's like permanent Shark Week. We're all swimming around in this ocean, trying to eat as many fish and seals (and sometimes other sharks) as possible. We keep moving (or we'll drown)... and meanwhile, various non-shark entities are either studying us, running away from us, or trying to kill us.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

It seems a lot of people are getting hung up on definitions of words like: success, marathon, sprint, dedication, achievement, "enough" money, etc. I was a residential real estate broker in my last career. I watched new agents come into the business being told, "You better have funds to get by for six months because it takes that long to get rolling." There was some truth to that even though a few hit the ground running and did well right out of the gate. However, I watched a lot of agents sort of go through the motions for six months. Then, in the seventh month, they wondered what was wrong, in the eighth they panicked, and in the ninth they were broke. Some quit, some got depressed, and some figured it out. They had been waiting for the six month mark instead of doing what it took. In other words, I think Annie is saying you have to do what it takes to get on the road to wherever you want to go, as opposed to just going through the motions and waiting for it to happen. You decide where you want to go. You decide how to make it happen. But, as Nike would say, "Just do it."


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I probably have more than a hundred pairs of shoes. Most are sneakers. I also like boots and J-41 outdoor hoppers. I probably have forty pairs of sandals total, too. I'm addicted to Converse. You literally couldn't pay me to go into a Payless, lol. I am a shoe Nazi. I cannot explain it. The UPS guy delivered two boxes (three pairs) of shoes from Journeys on Friday and just laughed when he handed them to me. "You buy a lot of shoes, lady."


My friend is right there with you. She has a closet full of shoes and doesn't get my Payless fascination either.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Damn right, it's not a marathon, says the lady who has to write 60,000 more words in eight days so she can get to work on that 120K novel due to her publisher by September 4th. Two full-length novels in less than two months. If I operated this business as if it were a marathon, I'd go broke.

That's not to say you can't go slowly and pace yourself if you'd rather do it that way. You can. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping writing as an enjoyable, fun, relaxing hobby. But if you want to turn it into a business and earn your dolla-dolla-bills from your words, you'd better put on your Reeboks and start sprinting.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

The Marathon vs. Sprint thing is like apples and oranges.  One sells gas and the other sells phone services.  Not a good comparison if you ask me.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Shei Darksbane said:


> I think the marathon analogy has more to do with keeping a steady pace than anything. At least, it does for me.
> If I think of this as a sprint, I'm going to work my ass off for days into weeks into months, then completely burn out and fail.
> If I think of it as a marathon, I'm going to build sustainable habits, working my way up day by day, getting stronger, faster, building my stamina to the point that I can improve my running speed but still keep it all going.


I'm with Shei. I'm not trying to avoid draining the pool of readers, I'm trying not to drain the pool of ME. Not every writer is a never-ending font of words and ideas, and even if we all were, that doesn't magically grant every writer a never-ending pool of energy to draw on.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Dragovian said:


> I'm with Shei. I'm not trying to avoid draining the pool of readers, I'm trying not to drain the pool of ME. Not every writer is a never-ending font of words and ideas, and even if we all were, that doesn't magically grant every writer a never-ending pool of energy to draw on.


Who is talking about draining anything? I'm talking about staying flexible, realizing that your success or failure is far more in your control than a lot of people like to think, and maybe we should go after our goals *now* instead of in some magical *later* time that never seems to show up.

How each individual does that is up to them.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I think a mountain climb is a much better metaphor. It takes a ton of problem-solving and strategy, plus the right gear (books, marketing) to make it up the mountain. And the SPACE for authors as you climb higher and higher does shrink dramatically. It doesn't get easier with the higher you go, it's just different. When you're lower on the mountain, it's hard to understand how other activities and concerns could take up so much time, but once you get there, it's clearer. You always have to be writing more books of similar or better quality than what got you there, but it's an orchestrated effort of everything in the author's tool belt that gets you to each level of the summit.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think a mountain climb is a much better metaphor. It takes a ton of problem-solving and strategy, plus the right gear (books, marketing) to make it up the mountain. And the SPACE for authors as you climb higher and higher does shrink dramatically. It doesn't get easier with the higher you go, it's just different. When you're lower on the mountain, it's hard to understand how other activities and concerns could take up so much time, but once you get there, it's clearer. You always have to be writing more books of similar or better quality than what got you there, but it's an orchestrated effort of everything in the author's tool belt that gets you to each level of the summit.


There is no level or summit though. Only up or down. So that analogy falls apart a little too.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Who is talking about draining anything? I'm talking about staying flexible, realizing that your success or failure is far more in your control than a lot of people like to think, and maybe we should go after our goals *now* instead of in some magical *later* time that never seems to show up.
> 
> How each individual does that is up to them.


Annie,

What genre(s) were your previous books that did not sell well?

What did you do differently, then vs. now, as far as promotion?

Thanks!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I got it! It's like a growing volcano. You have to dodge lava flows, there are surprise eruptions and the summit keeps getting higher.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

My non-selling books were stand alones or first in series with no follow up. They were a smorgasbord of fantasy (epic, fairytale, romance, historical, urban etc), science fiction (hard sf, cyberpunk, space opera), lit fic, and thriller. Many were short stories and collections ala the DWS/KKR plan of spamming the market with short stuff and as many high priced products as possible.

Things I did badly:
Priced high, because I was worth it, right? Right? *crickets*
Wrote whatever I wanted with no regard to readership or market or anything
Put covers on things I thought were nice and fit the story instead of thinking of covers as a marketing tool.
Believed that "good enough" when it came to formatting and cover art etc was...well... good enough.
Didn't do much promotion because promoting only a few books is silly, right? And the best promotion is more books no matter what they are, because volume will mean readers can find you even if nobody is finding you yet.
No mailing list. No social media use for readership engagement. Etc.

There were two times I broke that mold briefly. Once with my thriller when I tested putting something free back in the halcyon days of 2011. I gave away 20k copies in a handful of days (this was pre-Select mind you) and was selling 50-100 copies a day at 5.99 for a couple months after that. I thought hey! I've got this. This is the start of it all!

So I followed my muse and wrote... an epic fantasy novella.

Yeah. Sales died. Predictably, but I was told that it was okay. They'd come back. Just keep writing.  This is a marathon and you are in it for the long haul.  What I should have been told (and what I should have figured out on my own, frankly) is that I was an idiot and to follow up that success with another bloody thriller ASAP. To give the readership I'd stumbled upon with my freebie experiment something to buy. 

The other time I had any kind of success at all was when I took four fantasy novellas and put them in Select briefly in 2012. I used free days (something I was told was devaluing my work and totally stupid, but I wanted to test things) and a couple of super cheap promo sites. I made a couple hundred a month for the three months those books were in Select...but I kept being told I was devaluing my work and that free wouldn't gain me real readers etc, so I stopped doing that.

What I did right finally:
Set up a mailing list.
Stopped listening to people who don't sell books and don't understand indie publishing as a business.
Wrote a kick-*ss series aimed at exactly the kind of readership I live and breathe in and... followed it up with more books.
Wrote with readership in mind (again, targeting a genre I know well, love to write, and sticking it full to bursting with everything I love about it).
Didn't skimp on cover art, formatting, editing or any of that, and made sure my books looked at good as I feel they are, so that readers see them and can trust that they aren't wasting time and money.
Launched at .99 and released multiple books quickly, building on success instead of resting on it.
Soon as sales slowed (and they have a lot, since my health issues mean I can't release every two months at the moment), I widened my funnel. Put book one to free (even though it was still selling 40-60 copies a day mind you) to push up sales in general. 
I use Bookbub when I can get it (only once, but that once was worth an extra 15k in follow-on sales from my freebie) and smaller sites occasionally.  I'm testing FB ads but I think they are over-saturated and not sure they are worth it for me since my illness gives me limited energy and I'm better off writing and doing all the more important admin stuffs.

Mostly though, I started taking this seriously on the business side. I realized that I want a huge readership (ok, I've always known that) and I went after it. I'm still a prawn compared to many of the top authors even in my genre, but I'm not going to stop sprinting. You stop, you slow down... you slide backward. It's a rough reality of this business, but that's how it is.  Like Jana said... publishing is a business. You can't be precious if you want to succeed. You have to pay attention to the business aspects as well as the craft. You marry great business acumen with amazing writing craft, and you keep flexible and remember there is no top, no summit, no bucket to fill... then you got something and might get somewhere.

There is no finish line.  We're in control of so much more than sometimes people like to pretend. It's easier to think that you aren't hitting your goals because of outside factors, but nine times out of ten when someone complains about slow sales or lack of readership, the reasons aren't external. Harsh, but reality. Sorry.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

It's like swimming upstream.  You only make progress as long as you keep moving and if you slow down or stop, you lose ground, er, water.  It's a continual stream with no end in sight.  Eventually, no matter how fast or strong you swim, no matter how far you get ahead, you're gonna tire out and end up broken and battered at the bottom of the waterfall.

On the plus side, all the free fish you can catch!


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

It depends on your goals. Even if the goal is to make money, our time frame for doing so will differ.

For me, this _is_ a marathon. My writing is part of my retirement plan. By that, I don't mean I want to make enough money from my writing to retire from my day job early. I mean, I am building a readership and catalog, now, so that when I do retire from my day job, I will have an additional income stream to supplement my retirement income. I love my day job and have decent benefits, so I have no desire to leave any time soon.

I write for a living for many years. I worked in advertising, writing ad copy, sales letters, etc. I worked long hours, lived on coffee and TUMS, and slept very little because I always had two or three deadlines looming over me. I made good money. I was a sprinter. I sprinted right out of the gate and didn't slow down until I sprinted, full blast into a brick wall. I burned out so badly that I took a day job that paid about a third of what I was making just so I could get away from it. It took me over ten years to bring myself to start writing again. As someone who wanted to be a writer for as long as I could remember, that was a bitter pill to swallow. I felt like I had destroyed my greatest love and I had no idea of I would ever be able to get it back.

It's been a long time coming, but I have started loving writing again, but only because this time, I am writing for me, and at my own pace. The last thing I want to do is go back to feeling like I need to sprint. I don't want to write under the pressure of meeting a deadline, or feeling like I need to get that next book out by a certain date. Yes, I want to make money, but the _right now_ money is not nearly as important to me as the sustainable, long term income is, and it is no way important enough to me to ever risk burning out again.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

It's not a battle, it's a war.

It's not a destination, it's a journey.

It's not a hill, it's a mountain.

It's not lighter fluid, it's charcoal.

It's not a moon, it's a battle station.

It's not a squall, it's a hurricane.

It's not ramen noodles, it's seven bean soup.

It's not Pillsbury biscuits, it's homemade sourdough from food storage wheat.

It's not bacon, it's... wait. Of course it's bacon. It's always bacon.

It's not a Chinese scooter, it's a 1989 Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

It's not a cheap blade made in Pakistan, it's genuine Himalayan Imports.

It's not the McMansion in Sarasota that starts falling apart after ten years, it's the old stone building that stands for centuries.

Any of these work better for you, or should I go on?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Thankfully it is not a marathon as the first runner got to the finish line, proclaimed victory, and promptly dropped dead. That story was one of the first ones I had to translate as a 13-year-old studying Greek.

What I think the marathon statement is trying to say is about a lifetime of sales in an industry where there is no shelf-life. A better analogy might be a relay. I broke my duck in novel writing with a highly literary book, but when I'm asked about its sales I say that I've moved on to the next project and if that very non-commercial book ever sells well it will likely be because of a more commercial book selling well and readers wanting to risk the weird debut. It's like I've passed the baton on to my more speculative fiction, more commercial runners, but if they cross the finishing line in first, the early book that didn't sell is still part of the winning team, and might pick up a few sales as the book that did the first lap.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Caddy said:


> For me "It's a *marathong*, not a sprint." means if you see one good month, don't think your work is done. The good months don't keep going without work.


Bolded because that's the best typo I have seen in a long time!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

vlmain said:


> It depends on your goals. Even if the goal is to make money, our time frame for doing so will differ.
> 
> For me, this _is_ a marathon. My writing is part of my retirement plan. By that, I don't mean I want to make enough money from my writing to retire from my day job early. I mean, I am building a readership and catalog, now, so that when I do retire from my day job, I will have an additional income stream to supplement my retirement income. I love my day job and have decent benefits, so I have no desire to leave any time soon.
> 
> ...


This is not in any way meant to be snarky, so please don't take it as such.

If you are not earning any money now, where do you expect the sustainable long-term income to come from? When do you expect you'll start earning money in the now instead of the "someday"? A year? Ten? Thirty? When does "long term I'll earn money even though I'm not really earning much now" turn into "today I'm earning money" in your mind?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Annie B said:


> This is not in any way meant to be snarky, so please don't take it as such.
> 
> If you are not earning any money now, where do you expect the sustainable long-term income to come from? When do you expect you'll start earning money in the now instead of the "someday"? A year? Ten? Thirty? When does "long term I'll earn money even though I'm not really earning much now" turn into "today I'm earning money" in your mind?


No snark taken, but just to clarify, I didn't say I wasn't making money now, just that my _focus_ is not on what I earn today. My focus is on the long term goal.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok... what does that mean? I mean... my focus is long term also. That's why I'm constantly pushing more readership into my existing books while working on more books and planning how to crack bigger markets etc. But this also means doing what I can to make sure what I already have stays visible and that I don't lose ground more than I have to (it's almost impossible not to given my release schedule lately, sigh).  So I pay attention to the short term as well as the long term, because the short term serves the long term.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> If you are not earning any money now, where do you expect the sustainable long-term income to come from? When do you expect you'll start earning money in the now instead of the "someday"? A year? Ten? Thirty? When does "long term I'll earn money even though I'm not really earning much now" turn into "today I'm earning money" in your mind?


Annie, I think what the author of this post is doing is FINE. He/she is enjoying writing and building a readership. With a full-time job it is really hard to do the promotions you are "supposed" to do, the blog posts you are supposed to do, and the social media you are supposed to do. And frankly, it's not worth your health. You can acquire diseases that are preventable by not taking care of yourself, and some of those you can't go back from easily if at all. When he/she "retires" they can put their foot on the gas of the promotions machine.

Also, burn out is a real. Yes, if you can fit your "big idea" into an established genre, it's great. But if your big idea doesn't fit an easily into an established genre ... well, honestly my favorite stories lately have been like that. I adore Nolander: http://www.amazon.com/Nolander-Emanations-urban-fantasy-Book-ebook/dp/B007R6PPZA/ and American Ghoul: http://www.amazon.com/American-Ghoul-Walt-Morton-ebook/dp/B00AFCTMCU/ . I also love stories about creatures that aren't as popular in the paranormal world: http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Hunt-Faerie-Sworn-Book-ebook/dp/B00KO76LC0/ (Love Nieto's voice, too, very lyrical). I'm' really glad all of these authors above didn't write what I expect from urban fantasy/paranormal.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> Annie, I think what the author of this post is doing is FINE. He/she is enjoying writing and building a readership. With a full-time job it is really hard to do the promotions you are "supposed" to do, the blog posts you are supposed to do, and the social media you are supposed to do. And frankly, it's not worth your health. You can acquire diseases that are preventable by not taking care of yourself, and some of those you can't go back from easily if at all. When he/she "retires" they can put their foot on the gas of the promotions machine.
> 
> Also, burn out is a real. Yes, if you can fit your "big idea" into an established genre, it's great. But if your big idea doesn't fit an easily into an established genre ... well, honestly my favorite stories lately have been like that. I adore Nolander: http://www.amazon.com/Nolander-Emanations-urban-fantasy-Book-ebook/dp/B007R6PPZA/ and American Ghoul: http://www.amazon.com/American-Ghoul-Walt-Morton-ebook/dp/B00AFCTMCU/ . I also love stories about creatures that aren't as popular in the paranormal world: http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Hunt-Faerie-Sworn-Book-ebook/dp/B00KO76LC0/ (Love Nieto's voice, too, very lyrical). I'm' really glad all of these authors above didn't write what I expect from urban fantasy/paranormal.


Ok... again... that's not at all what I'm talking about. Clearly I'm not communicating well here.

I'm talking about people who say things like "I wish I were earning more now but I'm not, but that's okay because it is a marathon"... often times that is putting the responsibility and results off on factors outside of our control when they are totally things inside control.

I'm not speaking to people who are perfectly happy with their careers. I thought I made that pretty clear, but I guess I didn't? I wasn't being snarky when I said there are lots of ways to define success and be fulfilled. I'm only talking about the people I see who are clearly frustrated with how things are going or seemingly think that they can just keep doing things that aren't getting them the results they want but that somehow, long term, that will work out and turn around into results. People who are aiming at an invisible horizon and falling over the rocks at their feet and then wondering why they keep tripping and end up blaming the terrain.

Is that more clear?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> Annie, I think what the author of this post is doing is FINE. He/she is enjoying writing and building a readership. With a full-time job it is really hard to do the promotions you are "supposed" to do, the blog posts you are supposed to do, and the social media you are supposed to do. And frankly, it's not worth your health. You can acquire diseases that are preventable by not taking care of yourself, and some of those you can't go back from easily if at all. When he/she "retires" they can put their foot on the gas of the promotions machine.


Yes, this! Right now, I feel I have the best of both worlds. I have a job I enjoy and the security that comes along with that, and I am enjoying writing again and building a readership. I write on topics I enjoy and at a pace that is comfortable for me. I don't have the time or even the desire to blog or do lots of promotions, but I have done okay despite that. I am sure I could be earning more if I did all those things, but even without doing them, my monthly payment from Amazon continues to grow. I am happy with that.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

You were totally clear, Annie. I'm coming out of the KKR/DWS world and I know *exactly* what you mean.

Your advice is going to save me a lot of time, money, and heartache. I'm glad I found it only two months into self-publishing. Spending this weekend working on pen names and creating branding for each of them instead of running headlong into writing whatever topic I fancy.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Ok... what does that mean? I mean... my focus is long term also. That's why I'm constantly pushing more readership into my existing books while working on more books and planning how to crack bigger markets etc. But this also means doing what I can to make sure what I already have stays visible and that I don't lose ground more than I have to (it's almost impossible not to given my release schedule lately, sigh). So I pay attention to the short term as well as the long term, because the short term serves the long term.


It means we are different. I don't want to be constantly pushing anything. I want to write and enjoy the process. That said, when I said I don't focus on the right now money, I did not mean I pay no attention to what's happening today. I just mean that my _primary_ concern is not on making as much as possible, right now.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

vlmain said:


> It means we are different. I don't want to be constantly pushing anything. I want to write and enjoy the process. That said, when I said I don't focus on the right now money, I did not mean I pay no attention to what's happening today. I just mean that my _primary_ concern is not on making as much as possible, right now.


Then, as I pointed out in the paragraph long caveat on my original post, my post was not aimed at you. Hence that caveat.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Then, as I pointed out in the paragraph long caveat on my original post, my post was not aimed at you. Hence that caveat.


I never thought it was aimed at me or people like me. I was merely sharing my experience and adding to the conversation from the perspective of someone who _does_ view this as more of a marathon. I have always enjoyed hearing many different perspectives on topics. I suspect others might, also.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Monique said:


> I got it! It's like a growing volcano. You have to dodge lava flows, there are surprise eruptions and the summit keeps getting higher.


And sometimes, _zombies!_

I agree with your post, Annie. I don't think it matters how people view it as long as they're not deceiving themselves and using the marathon bit as an excuse for not taking action now.

I also do think the Sisyphean analogy is pretty good. Your roll that stone up and up, and if you stop, it gets heavier and tries to roll back over you. And even someone with a breakout hit, massive success, who gets to perch that rock on top for a little while had better not take their hands off it. The wind is going to gust eventually. It's just a matter of how far back down it rolls before they can run to get ahead of it. And I would imagine someone who doesn't enjoy this business is going to have a larger, heavier stone than someone who does.



JP Friday said:


> You were totally clear, Annie. I'm coming out of the KKR/DWS world and I know *exactly* what you mean.


Congratulations on shedding that thinking early on.


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## Lady Q (Jun 27, 2015)

JP Friday said:


> You were totally clear, Annie. I'm coming out of the KKR/DWS world and I know *exactly* what you mean.
> 
> Your advice is going to save me a lot of time, money, and heartache. I'm glad I found it only two months into self-publishing. Spending this weekend working on pen names and creating branding for each of them instead of running headlong into writing whatever topic I fancy.


Me, too, JP Friday, and it's thanks to people like Annie sharing their experiences and offering different perspectives. I have 7 titles out, but nothing solid enough to build a brand on. I'd be in a different position today if those titles were in one or two series of either novels or novellas.

Now I'm doing things differently. I'm focusing on developing series concepts rather than standalones. I'm weighing the pros and cons of Select. I'm working in long novella to novel lengths (and short stories only once in a while, for the readers who really like my retold fairy tale collections). I've dabbled in some promotions and have learned a lot about how I need to tailor my strategies to take advantage of those.

Writing and publishing are not my primary job. I'm not looking to replace a fulltime income here. But, yes, I would like publishing to pay for itself and provide me with a nice part-time income. And precisely because my time is limited, I need to be wise about how best to use it to meet my goals. And that includes working on the marketing.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> You know what gets me about world class marathoners? They run absurdly fast. We're talking sub-5:30 miles for _26+ miles straight_. That's really [expletive]ing fast. They run that fast for over _two hours straight_. Maybe for them, they're pacing themselves, but I can't even sprint that fast. I was a more than adequate runner back when I was in the Army, and I've never been bothered to run even a _single_ mile that fast.
> 
> The point being that I think it _is_ a marathon, but people have no earthly idea what real talk marathoning is about. It's not about taking your time. It's not about pacing yourself. It's not about merely crossing the finish line...eventually. It's about training and practicing until hallucinations set in. It's about running until you're vomiting and stumbling and bleeding from your nipples. It's about doing something that most humans seriously aren't even capable of--never were, never will be, never _could_ be--let alone are willing to endure.
> 
> If we're not worried about your time, then practically anybody who can walk should be able to finish a marathon sooner or later. Some people probably are trying to run that sort of marathon, and that's fine. But if you're truly trying to succeed, to excel, to reach thousands of readers or earn six figures a year or five figures a month or anything else that's extraordinary...you might want to tape up those nipples.


I have to say, I read this thread first thing this morning and your post has been running through my head, so to speak, all day. It's EXACTLY it. I heard some famous person once say (and I think someone mentioned it earlier) that success doesn't mean you get to sit back on your laurels and life gets easier. It means that you get MORE of that thing that made you successful. Someone mentioned elsewhere how eye opening it was to realize how hard the reeeaally financially successful indie authors were working (in my mind, they're the ones earning $30,000+ a month. And I know a bunch of indies who qualify.) It completely changed my world view when I learned that those folks were writing 6k and 10k and 20k words on a normal day, plus managing their businesses and staying in touch with fans and juggling all of the realities of being a publisher. It wasn't a reflection on my value as a human being. It was just the facts. It was the signpost which told me if I wanted to make that sort of money, that was the level I needed to operate at to be a part of the club. I have made some duuuumb mistakes in my publishing career. Too many series. Too many worlds. Agreeing to bring to life other people's projects instead of my own. And the one series that is my bread and butter? I don't publish in it enough. But I are getting smrter! And I have to say, like weight lifting, it gets easier when you train up. Mistakes aren't as terrible when there is a Plan B and Plan C and Plan D sitting in ye olde back pocket. I think, for me, belonging to the Sprinter Club means acknowledging all I've got is today and I have a responsibility to make the most of it. What's that old saying... "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Kate is wise.


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

KateDanley said:


> I have to say, I read this thread first thing this morning and your post has been running through my head, so to speak, all day. It's EXACTLY it. I heard some famous person once say (and I think someone mentioned it earlier) that success doesn't mean you get to sit back on your laurels and life gets easier. It means that you get MORE of that thing that made you successful. Someone mentioned elsewhere how eye opening it was to realize how hard the reeeaally financially successful indie authors were working (in my mind, they're the ones earning $30,000+ a month. And I know a bunch of indies who qualify.) It completely changed my world view when I learned that those folks were writing 6k and 10k and 20k words on a normal day, plus managing their businesses and staying in touch with fans and juggling all of the realities of being a publisher. It wasn't a reflection on my value as a human being. It was just the facts. It was the signpost which told me if I wanted to make that sort of money, that was the level I needed to operate at to be a part of the club. I have made some duuuumb mistakes in my publishing career. Too many series. Too many worlds. Agreeing to bring to life other people's projects instead of my own. And the one series that is my bread and butter? I don't publish in it enough. But I are getting smrter! And I have to say, like weight lifting, it gets easier when you train up. Mistakes aren't as terrible when there is a Plan B and Plan C and Plan D sitting in ye olde back pocket. I think, for me, belonging to the Sprinter Club means acknowledging all I've got is today and I have a responsibility to make the most of it. What's that old saying... "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."


This post,and the post Kate quoted, and Annie's original post really sum up what I've come to realize in the last few weeks. I'm about nine months into the self-publishing gig and I have some pretty hefty goals I'm working towards. At first, when sales were less than stellar (hell, they're less than stellar now, but in the beginning they were abysmal) I pacified myself with the whole marathon saying. What I was trying to tell myself was to be patient, to let myself learn what I was doing, and to give myself the space to grow. I can be RIDICULOUSLY OVER THE TOP self-critical and I have very high expectations for myself. It's very possible for me to focus completely on where I want to be and never notice that I'm taking tiny steps in that direction each day. I become focused on the NOT having what I want rather than on the fact that what I'm doing each day is absolutely wonderful. I used the marathon vs. sprint analogy to remind myself to focus on the here and now rather than some nebulous and uncertain future.

And, to Annie's point, if I didn't have such lofty goals and expectations, I could keep repeating that marathon mantra and feel pretty crazy OK about what I've accomplished in nine months. (I've finished three books. I have readers in several countries. I get fan mail that just makes me giddy. I've learned a ton of new skills. I mean the list goes on and on.)

It's because I have these goals that I can't just continue doing what I'm doing and wait and hope and pray for magic to strike on my umpteenth book.

Let's say I'm in New York and I want to get to Florida, I could set out for a jog heading north (yes, I meant to type north) and sure ... if I was super persistent and ran into some luck along the way, I might eventually get to Florida. Maybe. If I didn't get too tired or discouraged to continue. Or, you know, I could hop a plane and be there in a few hours.

Now that I've gotten myself broken in as a publisher and I'm beginning to feel comfortable in the business side of things, it's time for me to take the reigns, experiment, study markets and trends, implement changes and be really honest about my work - all the thing that'll be akin to me buying that plane ticket and getting myself to Florida.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Can we just retire that stupid analogy? Please? It has nothing to do with being successful in business. [...] It's not a marathon. You want success? Start sprinting. Start planning. Go find the bus. [...] If you don't care about money and the business side of things, cheers to you. This post is about publishing as a business.


I'm surprised that you have had the amount of politeness that you have received in these responses, considering that you began you post with a complete negation and dismissal of a mindset that thousands, if not millions, of aspiring writers use to help them to get through their often lonely, frustrating periods of authoring.

If it works for them, if it helps them get through their writing days, if they are happy with it, who are you to say that it's out-and-out _"stupid"_?

And just so we're clear, just so you understand, the "marathon" part of being an author means that you can't expect overwhelming, instant success---by any measure---after quickly writing only one story, of any length, no matter how good it is. Long-term success can come (_might_ come) only from long-term work, work of all kinds related to authoring and publishing and marketing. That's what is meant when someone says, _"It's not a sprint."_

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Word Fan said:


> I'm surprised that you have had the amount of politeness that you have received in these responses, considering that you began you post with a complete negation and dismissal of a mindset that thousands, if not millions, of aspiring writers use to help them to get through their often lonely, frustrating periods of authoring.
> 
> If it works for them, if it helps them get through their writing days, if they are happy with it, who are you to say that it's out-and-out _"stupid"_?
> 
> ...


While I disagree with the rudeness of the language, the point this post makes is a good one. There's no one right way to write or publish and I think it's the height of arrogance to make statements on what a writer should or should not be doing. If someone wants to use a sprint/marathon analogy to get through the day and it works for them, rock on. Do what you need to do to get words on the page and your career to where you want it to be.

Others on the boards have written the concept of "you do you, I'll do me" in terms of managing careers. Annie B has had plenty of strategies and tactics that have worked and not worked for her; those exact same tactics and strategies might not work for someone else and might not even be what someone else wants. Pithy caveats or not.

A lot of this thread smacks of one true wayism and that makes me sad. If there's one thing I've learned in studying writers farther ahead of me on the path is that there are many roads to success, however you define success.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Lighten up, Francis.


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Annie - I read your OP as a motivational call to arms that encourages you to take control of your own success. It seemed pretty clear what the message was.

I'm not sure why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over it.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

There really aren't that many different ways to the top. If you're talking about being a midlister, or writing for reasons other than to create a wildly successful business, then yes, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat. That's not what Annie's talking about.

Annie's concern is that the marathon analogy leads people into thinking that moderate, deliberate progress will eventually culminate in success--as she's defining it--when that isn't really the case. She's right. It's very rare for that to happen, and folks who think they're going to get to the top by writing 1,000 words a day are almost certainly deluding themselves. We have enough examples of runaway, overnight success stories that were several years in the making for us to arrive at an understanding of their formula. It does take time, but it also takes strenuous effort. There's no pacing or deliberation involved--just furious effort sustained over a longer period than most folks can manage. That pairing of endurance and effort is what tends to sort the All-Stars from the rest of us.

If you disagree, or think that you're an outlier who will defy convention, that's fine, but Annie's point was fairly and politely stated. Annie will keep doing Annie, you keep doing you, and some other folks will take away an inspiring new perspective. Ain't no cause for churlishness.


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

How man words went unwritten today because people were so invested in debating whether or not "marathon" is a good metaphor instead of putting backside in chair, fingers to keyboard, making words? 
Just curious.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> How man words went unwritten today because people were so invested in debating whether or not "marathon" is a good metaphor instead of putting backside in chair, fingers to keyboard, making words?
> Just curious.


We're all guilty of that to some extent, or the Writer's Cafe wouldn't exist and we'd be a lot dumber. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> How man words went unwritten today because people were so invested in debating whether or not "marathon" is a good metaphor instead of putting backside in chair, fingers to keyboard, making words?
> Just curious.


Does it matter? Are you actually curious? Or is this passive aggressive? It's so hard to tell.


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

Monique said:


> Does it matter? Are you actually curious? Or is this passive aggressive? It's so hard to tell.


Doesn't matter. 
A tiny bit curious.
Mostly teasing/sarcastic.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> How man words went unwritten today because people were so invested in debating whether or not "marathon" is a good metaphor instead of putting backside in chair, fingers to keyboard, making words?
> Just curious.


I multitasked. I played video games, put on a mud mask, bought liquor, did some laundry, did four outlines AND found time to complain on the Internet. It can be done. Don't sell yourself short.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I multitasked. I played video games, put on a mud mask, bought liquor, did some laundry, did four outlines AND found time to complain on the Internet. It can be done. Don't sell yourself short.


I'm developing such a strange, endearing composite image of you and your lifestyle.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> I'm developing such a strange, endearing composite image of you and your lifestyle.


I'm pretty much an immature pain -- just like most of my characters. It's not even remotely a coincidence.


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## henderson (Jul 14, 2014)

I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!

As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book.  This is usually the best type of marketing."

Is this bit of advice still wise to follow?

I sure hope so because I have published four novellas in my fantasy series since February, and looking to publish the fifth by end of this month or early next month.

I have only published on Amazon, but with KU2, I plan to go wide with all the novellas when I publish the fifth novella.

I haven't done any marketing and promotion, and only have a smattering of sales across the four novellas because I'm spending all my time writing, then publishing.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

henderson said:


> I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!
> 
> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."
> 
> ...


It's all in this thread really.

Are your books doing great? No? Then spend LESS time writing the next book and more time marketing. Doesn't work? Abandon the series at a handy point (but DO leave it up) and write something else. KU not working? Then try something else. Go wide, bundle the books, make book 1 free. Whatever. Just do something other than what you're doing now.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

henderson said:


> I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!
> 
> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."
> 
> ...


It's true that the next book is always the most important thing. But, one also needs to market their series, get it in front of eyeballs and see if it sells. I think three books is a good place to start promotions, whether that's paid newsletter ads, Facebook ads, or making book one free. When it comes to publishing, the last thing you want to do is write a ten book series in a series that doesn't sell. So at some point, those books need to be taken out for a spin.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

henderson said:


> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."


I think Annie's disagreed earlier in this thread, and Annie's a successful fantasy author, so you should probably listen to her. I think it's true early on, but probably moot because you're getting past that point anyway. You definitely should change something if you come to a point where you have five books out and nothing's got significant traction yet. Could mean marketing, or it could mean there's a flaw in the series (novellas aren't always a good length for fantasy) that should nudge you in a new direction.

Actually, my advice early on would probably be to withhold publication and do the Liliana Nirvana technique. Brian Fuller's Trysmoon Saga is a good recent example from epic fantasy: four epic-length novels released simultaneously last November. They elevated each other, took off into the holiday season, and have been cruising from that high ever since. He probably can't retire yet, but he damn sure can write for a living.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I personally feel very lucky to be able to earn any kind of living at all, and have writing be a part of that.  I don't have a lot of other options and it means a lot that my hobby has value now.  

It's weird treating it like work, but I think I've learned a lot.  I hope I'll learn more, but I also have to work at my own pace sometimes.  

Personally, as someone who struggle with health and anxiety stuff, I need to arrange my time so I don't have to do too much of certain things that make me feel worse.  I'm finding methods that work for me and let me release new work regularly. 

For me, it's very much a marathon not a sprint because I'm in it for the long term, but I need to find a sustainable pace that lets me earn money without hurting my health.  

I doubt I'll ever be a top dog.  I'm okay with that.  I'll just do the best I can.

If there's something that I'd really like to go all out on and improve at it's getting healthier, but there's only so much I can do there.  I feel like I'm already doing it.

Not that anybody needs to know that, just sharing my two cents with the internet world.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2015)

henderson said:


> I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!
> 
> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."
> 
> ...


Yes, the next book is the best marketing tool you can have, but if you're depending on just one tool then you'll never accomplish anything. With marketing, you have to do a variety of different things at the same time, otherwise no single one of them will work as well as it could.

So for example, instead of publishing the next book to little or no fanfare, you could run a sale on the first book to celebrate the new release, run a Goodreads giveaway at the same time, take out a few ads to promote the sale, write a couple of guest posts, and send out a couple of emails to your mailing list announcing it all. That's the way (or one of the ways, rather) to properly leverage your next book.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

henderson said:


> I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!
> 
> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."
> 
> Is this bit of advice still wise to follow?


You can't sell a book that doesn't exist, thus, you should always be writing your next book. SOP.

And don't follow my marketing advice. Ever.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I've been monitoring this thread too.

For grammar.




So far, no major problems. 

But I shall keep monitoring, so watch yourselves.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Douglas Milewski said:


> You can't sell a book that doesn't exist, thus, you should always be writing your next book.


That's true. Ideally you should never hit a point where you market to the exclusion of writing. The point of the adage is that you should write to the exclusion of marketing early on, because marketing only works when you have products on offer.



swolf said:


> I've been monitoring this thread too.
> 
> For grammar.


Thank goodness. I feel safer already.


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## henderson (Jul 14, 2014)

@ Patty Jansen

Thanks for the responses.

I'm not ready to abandon the series. If I wasn't writing it, I wouldn't be writing. Having said that, I still want to make more money. I'm out of KU, and plan to go wide, and looking to release a collection after the series is complete.

@ Deanna Chase

Thank you for your responses. 

After releasing the fifth novella, it will be good time to do some marketing and promotion. I also plan to go wide and I think it would be an opportunity to re-establish my novellas while I get them in front of more readers.

@ Dolphin

Thank you for referring me to the Liliana Nirvana effect and Brian Fuller's Trysmoon Saga.  I may do this for the last three novellas in the series, instead of releasing all three stories as one novella.

@ Joe Vasicek

Thank you for responding.

It makes sense to think that marketing is part of the publishing process and not separate if the author wants more people read the books.

@ Douglas Milewski

Thank you for responding and please keep monitoring.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

henderson said:


> I have been monitoring this thread for most of the afternoon, and have found it to be informative. Thanks!
> 
> As I have been reading the posts, I keep wondering about the bit of advice that is frequently dispensed to new self-published writers: "The best thing a writer should do is write the next book. This is usually the best type of marketing."
> 
> ...


The answer to this gets at Annie's original post, I think. In one sense, yes, the next book is always your most important tool -- but don't assume that means the next book in your current series. If your current series isn't where you want it to be, and you've tried marketing it and switching things up and it still isn't grabbing the sales and readers you're looking for, then adding more books to that series isn't going to get you much of anywhere. No matter how long you keep running down that road.

In that case, your next book _in a different series_ might be your most important tool. Because that might be the one that lights a fire and finally gets things moving.

There isn't a great metaphor for this because metaphors are supposed to make sense, and publishing often doesn't. Maybe it's like running out into the darkness, hoping to get to the bigger city you've heard is over the horizon somewhere, but you're not sure if the road's headed in the right direction -- or if there's even a road under your feet at all.

So if you wind up in the middle of nowhere, it's probably not the best idea to keep running toward nowhere hoping that city's just a little further out there in the direction you've already been running. Better to make camp, see if you can improve your map (better covers; a new subgenre; studying others; etc), then strike out in a new direction.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

L


Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm pretty much an immature pain -- just like most of my characters. It's not even remotely a coincidence.


LOL! I can relate.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Liz French said:


> I'm not sure why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over it.


Because being offended has become the new national past time.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Because being offended has become the new national past time.


Man, I thought it was posting vague things on Facebook to get people to ask you what's wrong and then saying you don't want to talk about it. I miss all the fads and new past times.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Because being offended has become the new national past time.


I think we're supposed to be making fun of each other's shoes too.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Dolphin said:


> I think we're supposed to be making fun of each other's shoes too.


I only do that for Payless, Crocs, Reeboks and Adidas. I pretend not to notice otherwise.


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Because being offended has become the new national past time.


Dang it. I'm always late on the newest fad.


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Because being offended has become the new national past time.


How very dare you suggest this!


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Because being offended has become the new national past time.


Nah, I'm pretty sure people were doing this back before my parents got together.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> Are your books doing great? No? Then spend LESS time writing the next book and more time marketing. Doesn't work? Abandon the series at a handy point (but DO leave it up) and write something else. KU not working? Then try something else. Go wide, bundle the books, make book 1 free. Whatever. *Just do something other than what you're doing now.*


I've been reading for the gems of advice and this is gold. So many people keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. My mantra is now keep trying and keep trying something *different*


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

Sometime back I read a news article about a person who had run a marathon every day -- for a year.

I realized that was a better metaphor for writing success than "_*A*_" marathon. Run one a day,
for the rest of your life/career.

If you want to sprint, that's ok too. I do High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) 3 mornings a week.
But it takes only an hour, counting walking to warm up and warm down.

I don't care about winning races -- I got my ribbons, medals, and trophies when I was a kid on the swim team.
I just want to remain fit and healthy for many more decades to come.

Fortunately, writing is not as physically demanding as running, so run that marathon -- or two -- every day.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

AliceWE said:


> I've been reading for the gems of advice and this is gold. So many people keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. My mantra is now keep trying and keep trying something *different*


Just make sure that you don't leave abandoned projects all over the place, but that you give a project a good run, say three or four books (by which time you can usually wrap the series up without looking messy). But if you've written four books, done marketing and it's still not selling, then you have to decide that either you're going to be stubborn and finish it anyway (at which point all the above advice ceases to apply to you), or move to another series.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim- I don't mean this as one true way. I meant it more as "we have a lot more control over things than sometimes people seem to think they do" sort of thing, and as a "if you aren't seeing the financial success side of things, perhaps it's your mentality holding you back" etc. Because I see quite a few writers who use the "long haul" excuse it seems to excuse not taking control of their career and to avoid really looking at why they aren't seeing the success on the business side that they say they want. 

I don't believe anywhere I prescribed a way other than "look at what you are doing, figure out how to do it and get different results, don't make excuses and stop telling yourself that success is something that just shows up someday if you wait long enough"...


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Annie B said:


> Jim- I don't mean this as one true way. I meant it more as "we have a lot more control over things than sometimes people seem to think they do" sort of thing, and as a "if you aren't seeing the financial success side of things, perhaps it's your mentality holding you back" etc. Because I see quite a few writers who use the "long haul" excuse it seems to excuse not taking control of their career and to avoid really looking at why they aren't seeing the success on the business side that they say they want.
> 
> I don't believe anywhere I prescribed a way other than "look at what you are doing, figure out how to do it and get different results, don't make excuses and stop telling yourself that success is something that just shows up someday if you wait long enough"...


For me, the marathon advice is more about consistency. But I view consistency with the eyes of a 20+ years violin veteran. All progress with the violin is slow and gradual. The "marathon" to me means that I should mark my progress by the mile and not by the minute. In other words, I wouldn't judge my Handel sonata the day after I read through the notes, I would judge it several months down the road.

I think the same holds true with writing. While you can't just hope for success to land on your lap, you also can't rush learning.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

What does playing violin have to do with being successful in the business of publishing? I don't see the correlation. Maybe to the writing side, but as I've clearly stated over and over, I'm not talking about the creation/product production side. I'm talking about the business side.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie,

Did luck play any part in your success? I have no doubts about your hard work, talent, and wisdom but just wondering how much does luck play a part in an independent author's success? I've read Hugh Howey state that he got "lucky" but not sure what he was referring to exactly.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Luck is a factor in anything in life. However, "luck" isn't in our control. I choose to focus on the things I do control. That was kind of my point with this thread. It's amazing how "lucky" I get when I work harder, stop doing things that don't get me progress toward my goals, and take control of my business.

I can't remember who said it (Google says it is disputed who the original quote is by), but this holds well true for me: "The harder I work, the luckier I get"

So... I think we make our own luck far more than we think. People used to call me a "luck box" when I played poker for a living too (only the people who kept losing their money, though, funny that). They just chose to ignore the hundreds of thousands of hands of poker I played, the hundreds of hours of study I put into it, how careful I was about bankroll management and other business things, and all the work that boiled down to each decision.

I quit my job to be a full time writer before I'd ever sold a story. I told people I was going to make six figures a year before ten years were up. Most people laughed at me. They told me nobody but the extreme outliers make that kind of money on fiction writing. They told me it just wasn't likely to the point of being impossible and that I was crazy.

I did it in five.  

If I'd been less stupid about some things on the business side and stopped listening to the wrong people sooner, I probably could have done it in two or three. (I almost did it in two years... if I'd followed up my first successful-ish book, who knows what could have happened, sigh)

Calling that luck would be to ignore the amount of effort and pain and sacrifice of those five years. The number of hours both in and out of classrooms and workshops I've put into my craft. The huge cycles of trial and error I've put into the business side.  The conventions, the hundreds of rejections, the money I've invested into covers and editing and learning. So no, I choose not to say I got lucky. I choose to look at the amount of work I did, the amount of time and effort and money invested into becoming a *businessperson* as well as a writer, and say I got what I worked for.

(of course, I have to keep it up. Doing *even* more work, listening to people who are smarter and better at this than I am, continuing to make judgement calls and try new things and stay flexible. That's the business. I love being an entrepreneur and working for myself, but I know it isn't for everyone.  And it is like being in one of those mouse wheels sometimes. You run as fast as you can, but don't always get anywhere.)


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Of course luck is a very big part of the kind of success we're talking about.

Annie and I were part of another group. Did the same things, wrote and published to the same magazines. We both have series, both read in the genre. The difference? Well, my books suck of course. Luck.

I fully believe that you can get a decent and increasing income by working hard and publishing in series, and by publishing more of what sells best, and by trying new things, without ever striking a mega-selling lucky book.

But to have a big flash-in-the-pan success series that nets you big money out of the blue? Utter luck. However, the more books you have, the bigger the chance that one of your books will catch that magic ride. If not, you'll still have solid sales to bank on. This is how publishers operate, too. They can hope for bestseller luck, but meanwhile, they can plan for solid sales.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I guess I'll just keep working like crazy and keep being lucky then.  

I do agree though. To be successful doesn't mean catching lightning in a bottle. Building a solid foundation is always good. We have control of a lot of things. That's my point. If you (generic you, not Patty obviously) aren't getting the results you want, change things. Do something else, try different stuff. Don't think that if you sit back and keep doing the things that aren't working that someday those things will magically start working. Take control today, not tomorrow or someday.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I bet professional poker is actually a great preparation for everything in this career except the writing. It's important that you don't afraid of numbers.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Luck is a factor in anything in life. However, "luck" isn't in our control. I choose to focus on the things I do control. That was kind of my point with this thread.


And an excellent point it is, too.

I have not read the whole thread, I just wanted to say that I also dislike the "marathon" analogy. People run a marathon in a day. We're talking a trek of thousands of miles over the course of decades, here. You don't train for the one big day, you figure out how to live it and do the work day in and day out over a long reach of time, complete with life changes, changes in circumstance, etc.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Alain Gomez said:


> For me, the marathon advice is more about consistency. But I view consistency with the eyes of a 20+ years violin veteran. All progress with the violin is slow and gradual. The "marathon" to me means that I should mark my progress by the mile and not by the minute. In other words, I wouldn't judge my Handel sonata the day after I read through the notes, I would judge it several months down the road.
> 
> I think the same holds true with writing. While you can't just hope for success to land on your lap, you also can't rush learning.


That's a very useful analogy for you, given your skill-set. "You can't rush learning" is also very true. There's so much involved in this wacky world we call self-publishing, that we can't possibly learn it all at once or do it all at once. The way we deal with our third book will be totally different from what we did on the first one, and the same with the sixth, or tenth or fifteenth. We just take it a step at a time and keep on keepin' on.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Nothing irritates someone who has sacrificed years or decades of their life for a goal more than to suggest it is luck.










_Edited to shrink image to accommodate those using mobile devices or older monitors. Thanks for understanding. --Betsy_


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Nothing irritates someone who has sacrificed years or decades of their life for a goal more than to suggest it is luck.


Serena is one of my heroes. 

It annoys me, too, a bit, but if people need to tell themselves that other people are just luckier than they are to feel better, I guess there's no harm in it (well, to the person they are talking about, there is potential harm to the person feeling that way since it might stop them from taking an active roll in their own destiny). I'll keep on working my butt off to be more "lucky" anyway and they can tell themselves whatever. Patty and I did start in somewhat the same place, but she's done things her way and I've done them mine. Our careers don't look very similar once you start looking at the details. We both have success in this business. I would hope at least that her post wasn't to imply I just got lucky, so I chose to read it otherwise.

There are many paths. That's the beauty of this biz but also its curse. We self-publishing writers have tons of control over many factors, and so a lot of both the successes and the failures rest on us.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Diligence is the mother of good luck. - Benjamin Franklin 



Annie B said:


> Luck is a factor in anything in life. However, "luck" isn't in our control. I choose to focus on the things I do control. That was kind of my point with this thread. It's amazing how "lucky" I get when I work harder, stop doing things that don't get me progress toward my goals, and take control of my business.
> 
> I can't remember who said it (Google says it is disputed who the original quote is by), but this holds well true for me: "The harder I work, the luckier I get"
> 
> ...


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

I've read 7 pages of debate over whether a metaphor is good advice.

Maybe when dispensing advice, as writers we should be succinct and not rely on flimsy, collapsible, easy to debate/dismiss, metaphors.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

There is definitely an element of luck in any success.  (In my opinion.)  But luck can usually get someone only so far-- at some point there has to be something more.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I LOVE Serena and I LOVE that quote. 

To add to to that, I very much like Annie's poker analogy. Bad players win at poker sometimes. In every tournament, at every table, the sheer number of them vs. the better players is 5:1, minimum (and in most cases, depending on the tournament, 10:1 or more). That means that you're invariably going to see a couple of those bad players in the money, getting pats on the back and congratulations along with the rest of the players who worked their asses off to be there. 

It's the same with publishing. 

You can look at a top 100 list in any genre and there are going to be poorly written books. A lot of them. Because there are way more bad writers writing than good writers. And some of them will get lucky. And maybe even some of those good writers got lucky too. But I can promise you that your chances of getting lucky go up a thousand-fold if you become a student of your craft, get your BICHOK, and then learn the business. Make connections with peers. Read and ferret out news and information on publishing, talk about it, breathe it in (and learn from people who are doing it BETTER than you--which I still do ALL the time, while also hopefully offering something in return). Learn at least the basics of all facets of the business (and then delegate/hire out the things you're not good at to people who ARE good at it). Be a sponge. 

I wrote lots of books (well over a dozen) before I "got lucky". I was picked up by a lot of different publishers, but wasn't making anything even close to a living. The reason is so clear, in hindsight. If I say all the genres out loud, they can be sung to the tune of 12 days of Christmas.

Five paranormal romaaaaaaance! 
Four con-temp-o-rar-y
Three steampunk
Two erotic shorts
And a YA dys-top-ee-annnnnnn!

-_-

That's not even all of them. Not smart. But, at the same time, they were great practice. I worked with 10+ professional editors, learned how to read a contract and what to look for, and each book got better as I continually studied craft, formed a crit group, and busted my ass. And then? I "got lucky". I was on twitter combing the feeds of some people in the industry I felt were doing things that impressed me. One of those people was the head of a publishing house who put out a call for a type of book right there on her twitter feed. She described what she was looking for and invited interested parties to contact her and join a large, group style e-meeting. I spend the next four hours prepping questions and a pitch and scouring the web for other books like the one she wanted to see what was working in that sub-genre with that particular trope and what wasn't, then the next two hours at the meeting itself. When the meeting was over, I went and wrote the book that allowed me to quit my day job and I haven't looked back.

Would I have "gotten lucky" if I hadn't studied what was selling best in my genre? Would I have "gotten lucky" if I hadn't been on Twitter that day stalking the feeds of publishers and agents that I was interested in? Would I have "gotten lucky" if I hadn't sat down and hammered out that book in three weeks, thereby putting my manuscript in front of the publisher before many who were at that same meeting even finished their outline?

I doubt it. 

So, FWIW, here's a couple nuggets of unsolicited advice that you can either take or scoff at: 

1-Don't believe the hype that success is for the lucky few. It's not. It's for the few, to be sure. But not because there are only a few success slots open. There is loads of space on that bus. Just most people aren't willing to figure out and/or do what it takes to claim a seat. (To parrot Annie, if your view of success is the sheer joy of creation and the written word, and following your muse which may or may not eventually lead to financial success, this doesn't apply to you. You're already a success 

2-Don't wait on luck to find you. Constantly place yourself in a position to get lucky. Opportunity in this business is EVERYWHERE. All you have to do is put the work in to find it. If you're a good writer, or MAKE yourself become one, and you work hard, and consistently look for and take advantage of the opportunities in front of you, you stand a very good chance of succeeding at this business. I believe that wholeheartedly. If my readership disappeared tomorrow and I had to rebuild with a brand new pen name all over again, I know in my heart, I could do it all over again. I believe in myself and my work ethic and my ability to make *%& happen. If you don't believe that, then you're doing yourself a disservice because no matter how successful or unsuccessful you are, you will wind up with none of the credit and, more damagingly, none of the blame. If it's not your fault...if it's not within your control, then you're just a victim (or beneficiary) of this cruel, unjust industry. And isn't that the saddest thing? 

Claim your destiny. Hunt success. Gun it down and drag it back to your cave and skin it. I promise it will be far tastier than the meal you HOPE someone will come by and hand you someday.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

That's right! It's not a marathon...

It's a freakin hunting party 

I love that image. Hunting down success and skinning it. Thank you.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Annie B said:


> That's right! It's not a marathon...
> 
> It's a freakin hunting party
> 
> I love that image. Hunting down success and skinning it. Thank you.


A lesson for us all: a


http://imgur.com/akrWz

.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Andrew Ashling said:


> A lesson for us all: a
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/akrWz
> ...


I must try the naked trampolining.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Andrew Ashling said:


> A lesson for us all: a
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/akrWz
> ...


And he earned it. He's worked harder than most and been knocked down by this business plenty, having to adjust, change what he's writing etc. Good on him. If I had f*kitol monies, I'd be on a trampoline nekkid too.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> A lesson for us all: a
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/akrWz
> ...


Oh, thanks for giving me my laugh of the day!!!!! I'm bookmarking that!

Man, I wish I could play the bongos, jump nekkid on a trampoline and blow bubbles all day long, too! Especially in a house like that!


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Andrew Ashling said:


> A lesson for us all: a
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/akrWz
> ...


That's pretty much my day.

I don't like the idea of luck factoring into success. Maybe it does a little sometimes, but that kind of thinking isn't healthy for those striving for success.

Almost all of the success stories I've seen in self-publishing have come about from hard work and determination. That's what people should be emulating, not blaming others' success on luck.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

I don't subscribe to the luck theory when it comes to success in any business. Luck is winning the lottery. I don't believe that having a book become wildly successful, even when it seems to come out of the blue, is luck. It happens because somewhere down the line, the writer wrote a great story, and did what they did to get that book seen. Everything that made the discovery of that book possible are things the author had their finger on. They were decisions he or she made. That's not luck. 

Luck would be buying a fixer upper and finding a three hundred year old manuscript in the attic, putting it up on Amazon, and waking up the next morning to find it's the new Harry Potter. That would be lucky!


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

You know, I think there's a certain type of luck involved. You look around at an author with a decent body of work, and I think most (if not all) of them have one series that's hit harder than any of the others. Maybe it's sold better than their other stuff by orders of magnitude. If they'd never written that one book that started the series -- or if they'd written it at the wrong time, or left out that one twist that really tied the story together -- then their career might only be a fraction as large as it turned out to be.

Obviously, there's loads of skill in conceiving of that book, to say nothing of executing it. Even so, I often think about how, if I hadn't written that one book at the particular time I did, I might not be here right now.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> You know, I think there's a certain type of luck involved. You look around at an author with a decent body of work, and I think most (if not all) of them have one series that's hit harder than any of the others. Maybe it's sold better than their other stuff by orders of magnitude. If they'd never written that one book that started the series -- or if they'd written it at the wrong time, or left out that one twist that really tied the story together -- then their career might only be a fraction as large as it turned out to be.
> 
> Obviously, there's loads of skill in conceiving of that book, to say nothing of executing it. Even so, I often think about how, if I hadn't written that one book at the particular time I did, I might not be here right now.


Maybe. But a lot of what you described is just being good at what you do. And continuing to work and try things. That's not luck.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> You know, I think there's a certain type of luck involved. You look around at an author with a decent body of work, and I think most (if not all) of them have one series that's hit harder than any of the others. Maybe it's sold better than their other stuff by orders of magnitude. If they'd never written that one book that started the series -- or if they'd written it at the wrong time, or left out that one twist that really tied the story together -- then their career might only be a fraction as large as it turned out to be.
> 
> Obviously, there's loads of skill in conceiving of that book, to say nothing of executing it. Even so, I often think about how, if I hadn't written that one book at the particular time I did, I might not be here right now.


IMHO this only applies if you happened to write a book in a genre that become the next hot thing when you published. If you wrote a story in a well-established genre, then everything you described should have been a deliberate decision on your part before you ever started writing. That's not luck. That's planning.

I have one series that outsells my other by 3 or 4 times over. Was I lucky on the bestselling one? Absolutely not. In fact, that series is the one that I couldn't sell to NY because it was "over the top" and "too absurd" and "readers wouldn't like it." But I am stubborn and wrote exactly what I wanted the way I wanted because I thought I knew better than NY what people in my niche wanted to read. And I was right. But every decision I made to write that series was well thought out. Luck never factored in. Not once.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

I apologize if someone has already mentioned this or a similar situation (I've only read part of this long thread):

_Though Dune won the Nebula and Hugo awards, the two most prestigious science fiction prizes, it was not an overnight commercial success. Its fanbase built through the 60s and 70s, circulating in squats, communes, labs and studios, anywhere where the idea of global transformation seemed attractive. Fifty years later it is considered by many to be the greatest novel in the SF canon, and has sold in millions around the world._

The rest of the fabulous article can be found here:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/03/dune-50-years-on-science-fiction-novel-world

Also, one of the dictionary definitions of marathon is: any contest, event, or the like, of great, or greater than normal, length or duration or requiring exceptional endurance

That particular definition doesn't include a finish line.

Writers probably do best working at their own pace, fast or slow.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

heidi_g said:


> I apologize if someone has already mentioned this or a similar situation (I've only read part of this long thread):
> 
> _Though Dune won the Nebula and Hugo awards, the two most prestigious science fiction prizes, it was not an overnight commercial success. Its fanbase built through the 60s and 70s, circulating in squats, communes, labs and studios, anywhere where the idea of global transformation seemed attractive. Fifty years later it is considered by many to be the greatest novel in the SF canon, and has sold in millions around the world._
> 
> ...


I appreciate the post, and the sentiment that writers should work at their own pace. I agree on that front.

As for Dune, it's a rare example.

I say this in the politest of ways, something I know can be misconstrued: I'd rather base my business practices on what's working right now rather than waiting for something extremely unlikely to maybe happen in 50 years.  If someone wants to celebrate my work in half a century, great! I just hope I've made enough money off it to live a comfortable life before that point.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

RKC said:


> As for Dune, it's a rare example.


 I don't disagree in the least. And yet, life is replete with rare examples. They're as real as the mean in a bell curve


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## Colorwheel (Nov 21, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Yes. That was exactly my point.
> 
> And there are, in fact, wrong ways to go about things in this business. Believing there is no wrong way can blind one to the better ways and be a danger all in itself. However, yes, there is no one *right* way. There are multiple right ways (though many of those paths share the same foundations and a lot of the same blueprints), but there are also multiple wrong ways, too, if financial success and wide readership are your goals.


Thank. You. For. This.

I want to demand a quarter every time somebody tells me "hang in there, there are lots of ways to do this!" No. There is one. One true path through 3 or 4 lucrative genres. There is only one acceptable goal, and that is to make as much money as humanly possible. If you are not quitting your day job, you fail and you are not really a writer. I didn't know that until I came to Kboards, but believe me, I learned.

I'm one of those people who doesn't fit the mold - I don't think I could write in a popular genre even with a gun at my head - and so I accept that I am doing it wrong. My compatriots in the failure corps need to realize this too.

You can still write your little books if you aren't a real writer.

You can still write your little books even if they don't sell.

But you as a person do not matter, and you are doing it wrong. That does not mean you can't do it; you just don't deserve a voice in this community. That's all.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Colorwheel said:


> Thank. You. For. This.
> 
> I want to demand a quarter every time somebody tells me "hang in there, there are lots of ways to do this!" No. There is one. One true path through 3 or 4 lucrative genres. There is only one acceptable goal, and that is to make as much money as humanly possible. If you are not quitting your day job, you fail and you are not really a writer. I didn't know that until I came to Kboards, but believe me, I learned.
> 
> ...


Umm... I don't think anyone said this. At least not in this thread.

Sorry you are frustrated though.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

heidi_g said:


> _Though Dune won the Nebula and Hugo awards, the two most prestigious science fiction prizes, it was not an overnight commercial success. Its fanbase built through the 60s and 70s, circulating in squats, communes, labs and studios, anywhere where the idea of global transformation seemed attractive. Fifty years later it is considered by many to be the greatest novel in the SF canon, and has sold in millions around the world._
> Also, one of the dictionary definitions of marathon is: any contest, event, or the like, of great, or greater than normal, length or duration or requiring exceptional endurance


_Dune_ does not really fit the theme of the thread which is about the business of publishing, not the sales progress of a single book. An author can choose to follow Harper Lee in not worrying about success, but someone pursuing a writing career cannot sit around waiting for their book to do a _Dune_ or _Lord of the Rings_. The writer/publisher should consider changing to writing something different to see if that succeeds rather than waiting - *if a writing career is the aim rather than getting that one novel in them out of them.*


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I guess "luck" has a slew of meanings. Luck for me was in timing beyond my control. I retired early with no intent of doing more than trying out this new-fangled ebook thing in between petting the ponies and playing Scrabble. I was barely able to process being able to publish my own stuff in early 2011, let alone even consider handling the stuff of others. Then I reached out for a blurb, made a connection... and 8 months later Steel Magnolia Press was born. Then Select came along and I was able to turn that to my advantage before the algos readjusted. Then BookBub showed up and wowza. Then I dipped in quick while box sets were "the next big thing." 

I wasn't trying to "time the market" because the tools that really propelled our sales (our sprints, as it were) were not things I foresaw. I was "lucky" that the opportunities came along when they did. I didn't make my own luck there. I simply grabbed the luck when it shot by. 

I'm proud to own the results for each of those tool-fueled "sprints" (my mantra has always been it's a marathon made up of a bunch of sprints). But had the timing been 4 or 5 years in the past or future that these opportunities came about, I wouldn't have been there to seize them. In that regard, I consider what success we had to have been built on the luck of the market. I don't discount my hard work in the least. But at any other time, I'm not sure we'd have seen the same results we did.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I believe there is absolutely luck as a factor in a lot of success stories.  Daniel Radcliff's father was a casting agent.  Harrison Ford met George Lucas when Lucas hired him to do some carpentry work in his home.  And it was pure luck that led Misty Copeland, the first African-American principal dancer with the  American Ballet Theatre, to try ballet in the first place.  Now, skill, talent, and years of hard work got these folks where they are today, but a little bit of luck on the front end put them in the right place at the right time.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

People always get hung up on "luck". Is it real, is it fake, etc. When someone says "I got lucky", it doesn't mean that they really believe in the concept. It's just a saying. Life is random! Nothing is guaranteed. You can work hard, have a bestselling author as a coach, a superstar agent, and still flop. Don't believe me? Look at all the expensive movies that tanked at the box office. 

IMHO, when successful people mention hard work it's like they're implying that non-successful people aren't working hard enough. That isn't true, some writers on this board work just as hard as bestselling authors and they're still struggling. There's something else at play here. Call it luck, being at the right place at the right time, whatever. 

It's not an insane idea. As humans we can only control so much.  

On the flip side look at new authors who hit homeruns out the gate.  Stephanie Meyer called herself an  amateur  when Twilight blew up. She didn't spend years perfecting her craft. 

I also got lucky with my first book last year. It's so bad, I didn't have a clue, but it still sold well enough for me to quit my job after two months. I didn't work hard. What do you call that?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

That's one of the things Joe Konrath always points out. Luck/random chance does play a distinct role in success. But part of what the successful people who work so hard at this business do is position themselves to take advantage of as many of those random chances as possible. Their efforts make lucky breaks more likely to happen for them and make them more prepared to grab them and use them when they come along.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Colorwheel said:


> Thank. You. For. This.
> 
> I want to demand a quarter every time somebody tells me "hang in there, there are lots of ways to do this!" No. There is one. One true path through 3 or 4 lucrative genres. There is only one acceptable goal, and that is to make as much money as humanly possible. If you are not quitting your day job, you fail and you are not really a writer. I didn't know that until I came to Kboards, but believe me, I learned.
> 
> ...


Now I'm depressed.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Oh yeah, I agree. You can increase your odds, but saying random events has nothing to do with success is foolish. So we shouldn't brush luck aside. It's like saying, "I control everything in my life!" Sure, keep telling yourself that


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

D. Zollicoffer said:


> People always get hung up on "luck". Is it real, is it fake, etc. When someone says "I got lucky", it doesn't mean that they really believe in the concept. It's just a saying. Life is random! Nothing is guaranteed. You can work hard, have a bestselling author as a coach, a superstar agent, and still flop. Don't believe me? Look at all the expensive movies that tanked at the box office.
> 
> IMHO, when successful people mention hard work it's like they're implying that non-successful people aren't working hard enough. That isn't true, some writers on this board work just as hard as bestselling authors and they're still struggling. There's something else at play here. Call it luck, being at the right place at the right time, whatever.
> 
> ...


One thing I've noticed about wealthy people is that they always say "I worked hard" like other people aren't wealthy because they didn't work hard. I have no doubt that lots of successful people work very hard, but lots of unsuccessful people also work very hard. People who work minimum wage jobs work very hard. It takes a lot more than working hard to find success.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I believe in hard work and luck. When people ask me why my books took off, I honestly have no idea. My first covers were terrible. My first editing decisions were moronic (newspaper editing is not the same as book editing, lol). I did no marketing. I didn't pay for my first ad until 2014. I still don't advertise a lot but at least now I know it's out there. I haven't set up a website yet and I haven't updated my blog in more than seven months. I didn't start my mail list until last fall. I literally did every single thing wrong at the beginning. I've learned, don't get me wrong. Luck played out for me in a big way, though.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> One thing I've noticed about wealthy people is that they always say "I worked hard" like other people aren't wealthy because they didn't work hard. I have no doubt that lots of successful people work very hard, but lots of unsuccessful people also work very hard. People who work minimum wage jobs work very hard. It takes a lot more than working hard to find success.


It's funny really. Take social networks for example. The guys at Facebook worked hard, but the same is true for dozens of other startups. Now you don't get lucky on a test. Either you know the information or you don't. But when you're selling something to the public, luck plays a role in your success.

Because people are unpredictable.

I agree with Yoda. It's some of both. She may have gotten lucky, but her work ethic demands respect.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

'Luck' only occurs when opportunity, talent, and hard work converge. Thing is, there are opportunities popping up all over the place. It's up to us to constantly be on the lookout for them, and to be prepared to bring the other to elements to the mix. Without them, the opportunity is wasted, and the 'luck' never happens.

The thing to remember is that 'talent' and 'hard work' are subjective, just like 'quality'. You never know what the masses will consider to be worth the expenditure of their time and money.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

When I first was trying to break into traditional publishing (tried for about five years solid), nothing worked out.

The genres I was trying to break into (horror/thriller) were not "hot" at the time, and I often felt that I had a black cloud of bad luck over my head.  Whereas some writers I knew had written one book and gotten a great deal in a hot genre, I was getting rejection after rejection.

When ebooks came along, I fought hard because I KNEW and APPRECIATED just how rare this opportunity was.  The chance to make my own luck, to get more swings at the ball...etc.

So yes, luck factors in.  I didn't sell a book for five years in part because I was at the wrong place at the wrong time...and then I was lucky years later to have learned about ebooks early on and get into the game in 2011.

We'll all likely have both good and bad breaks throughout our careers.  But if you quit, you don't lucky.  If you're lazy and negative, you're a lot less likely to get lucky.  If you're uninformed, narrow-minded, rigid and stubborn and arrogant--you probably will have a harder time adjusting to changes and figuring out how to improve.

Luck plays an enormous part in every writer's career, but only a fool thinks "it's all luck" or "I'm just always going to have to wait for my lucky day."  You can give yourself more opportunities to get lucky--it's up to you!


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Umm... I don't think anyone said this. At least not in this thread.
> 
> Sorry you are frustrated though.


I have to agree: nobody said anything like that in this thread. I've seen threads where people who write for other reasons, or write for art or creativity sake are bashed...but not here. This thread has gone on for a few days and it's been respectful and interesting. I personally find it encouraging to see a decent discussion where views may differ a bit, but in general we're all saying the same thing in different ways. And it's been stressed: if you aren't writing to make money and have a large audience this doesn't apply. That does not translate in any way to "And you aren't important." Every post doesn't have to apply to every writer, after all. When a post doesn't apply to you, simply don't read it.  And maybe start one for people who write for reasons other than money. If you do, I hope people who do write for money will respect that post and not come in with disparaging remarks, but nothing is guaranteed on the internet. There may be a few that feel the need to become snarky. Ignore them. We don't know what goes on in other people's lives and why they respond the way they do on certain days. I know some days I respond poorly or take things too personally.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> One thing I've noticed about wealthy people is that they always say "I worked hard" like other people aren't wealthy because they didn't work hard. I have no doubt that lots of successful people work very hard, but lots of unsuccessful people also work very hard. People who work minimum wage jobs work very hard. It takes a lot more than working hard to find success.


I don't think we disagree entirely. I, too, believe that it takes a lot more than working hard to succeed when it comes to writing for a living. I just don't think luck is the other necessary ingredient. Some luck is fabulous, and a measure of talent surely helps, but even more than that, it takes the ability to work SMART. Running in circles is hard work. That doesn't mean it's going to get you anywhere. Publishing 10 different types of books and never sticking with anything long enough to make a go of it is hard work. I daresay it's harder than writing 10 of the same genre. Writing the book of your heart that isn't marketable in the current publishing landscape is hard work. And yes, maybe a handful of authors will become successful doing those things. But the path of least resistance is clear and it's not really even debatable. If I talk to 100 six-figure and up indie authors and ask what they do that WORKS, the majority are going to say the same thing. Learn your craft. Learn the industry. Write books people want to read. Write series. Get a good cover. Make sure your books are edited well. Learn how to market. Network with other authors. A solid writer with an excellent work ethic who is willing to put the time and energy behind finding and writing to a robust (or niche but under-served) genre can make a living at writing if they are persistent and do the above. That's what I believe. I've seen too many people do it to not believe it. It may be the unpopular opinion, and that's fine too.

Can it be done another way? Sure. But that's like betting the underdog. Fun if you're gambling (who doesn't love the underdog?!) but not so fun when you have a family to feed. Does that mean that authors who make the decision to solely write marketable books have to make some sacrifices sometimes? It sure does. If I could write whatever I wanted, I would be writing dystopian YA and psychological thrillers. Unfortunately for me, both tend to take me a very long time to write and I have six people who rely on me to take care of them. Some day, when I have enough socked away for a lot of rainy days, and the kids college educations are paid for, then I will roll the dice, take eight months off and write the book of my heart and hope for some luck. For now, I'll write the workhorse books that my readers love that also allow me to write full time and have the hubs home to help with the business. Beats the hell out of a day job, and I feel very fortunate. But it sure as [crap] isn't luck. I don't think I've ever mapped out anything more carefully than my career trajectory.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I don't think we disagree entirely. I also believe it takes a lot more than working hard to succeed in writing for money. I just don't think luck is the other necessary ingredient. Some luck is fabulous, and a measure of talent surely helps, but even more than that, it takes the ability to work SMART. Running in circles is hard work. That doesn't mean it's going to get you anywhere. Publishing 10 different types of books and never sticking with anything long enough to make a go of it is hard work. I daresay it's harder than writing 10 of the same genre. Writing the book of your heart that isn't marketable in the current publishing landscape is hard work. And yes, maybe a handful of authors will become successful doing those things. But the path of least resistance is clear and it's not really even debatable. If I talk to 100 six-figure and up indie authors and ask what they do that WORKS, the majority are going to say the same thing. Learn your craft. Learn the industry. Write books people want to read. Write series. Get a good cover. Make sure your books are edited well. Learn how to market. Network with other authors. A solid writer with an excellent work ethic who is willing to put the time and energy behind finding and writing to a robust (or niche but under-served) genre can make a living at writing if they are persistent and do the above. That's what I believe. I've seen too many people do it to not believe it. It may be the unpopular opinion, and that's fine too.
> 
> Can it be done another way? Sure. But that's like betting the underdog. Fun if you're gambling (who doesn't love the underdog?!) but not so fun when you have a family to feed. Does that mean that authors who make the decision to solely write marketable books have to make some sacrifices sometimes? It sure does. If I could write whatever I wanted, I would be writing dystopian YA and psychological thrillers. Unfortunately for me, both tend to take me a very long time to write and I have six people who rely on me to take care of them. Some day, when I have enough socked away for a lot of rainy days, and the kids college educations are paid for, then I will roll the dice, take eight months off and write the book of my heart and hope for some luck. For now, I'll write the workhorse books that my readers love that also allow me to write full time and have the hubs home to help with the business. Beats the hell out of a day job, and I feel very fortunate. But it sure as [crap] isn't luck. I don't think I've ever mapped out anything more carefully than my career trajectory.


This times a million...

A lot of authors work hard, but some of them also work hard at things that might not have a high chance of success. If you're intentionally working in a genre that doesn't have many readers available, then even if you spend years putting out high quality prose--you might not have much monetary success.

That doesn't mean you suck. And you might be very happy with the few rabid fans who love your stuff.

But if we're talking about putting food on the table, paying mortgages and insurance and car payments--then we're talking needing to access a large amount of readers to consume what you write.

And that means you have to consider audience and work intelligently to have a crack at the largest numbers possible. Or you need to understand how to reach that underserved niche in a way that puts you deeply in touch with enough folks...either way, working SMART is definitely part of the equation.

By the way, folks who don't have a lot of readers aren't therefore stupid. Sometimes it takes a lot of trial and error to find the right niche, to get the formula right for the kind of writing business you want to create.

However, I agree with what you and Annie B. and other similar minded authors describe. It takes a measure of effort towards considering the market and sometimes that means not writing what your heart wants. There are lucky writers who can just write what they love and sell gangbusters, or at least sell enough to keep them happy.

But many of us, myself included, have had to pivot and write material that isn't necessarily what we consume in our free time. It's a job, a fun job, and I love what I do. But my genre is not what it was when I first began this career...


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I don't believe in luck. I believe in _privilege_, but not really luck. Daniel Radcliffe's dad being a casting agent is an example of privilege. There's tons of those out there, and a great many of us are beneficiaries of one sort of privilege or another. Privileged to have had access to books as kids, to have been taught how to type, to have computers and internet connections, to have the time to write without starving as a consequence, &c.

Yet when one book skyrockets and another one doesn't, I'm disinclined to call that "luck." That just sounds like another word for the supernatural, like we somehow think that the book was favored by the gods. Like that author's fortune can be explained by propitious omens of serpents or birds on the day of the book's release.

That's nonsense.

That the book was put into a position where it could succeed was the result of many different factors, most of which were the result of the author's own agency. The book doesn't get written without the author, probably doesn't get published, probably doesn't get promoted or handed out or whatever else it is that made it possible for readers to buy in. If you dig deeper, comparing two similarly situated works, and conclude that there's some x-factor, some element of luck or divine intervention that made one succeed where the other one floundered, I think you're just missing something. This is especially true if you're assessing your own work. We suck at that. It's a given that we suck at that.

That element could be anything, really. One of the covers might have more blue in it. One of the protagonists might have a little bit more agency, or a little bit more development. One of the plots might have a slightly smaller hole. One of the ebooks might be coded more expertly, or one of the retailers might provide a better user experience. One of the authors might have a more appealing pen name than the other. Any of these tiny factors could turn off one crucial reader whose word of mouth is ultimately key in rocketing the successful book to the top of the charts. One of them might get a clutch review before the other (you could say this isn't part of the author's agency, but I'd ask you what the successful author did that contributed _in any conceivable way_ to getting that review first--we will find at least some tiny shred of potential causation if we look deep enough). In sum, all of these factors could make the difference for a slew of crucial readers. One book sinks while another triumphs.

We'll never be able to assess any of this with any great degree of success, but I believe that it's happening. There are professional humans who get paid good livings to decide which shade of blue will alienate 1% of the population, or which shade will endear them to 0.1%. These things matter. All taken together, these things matter a great deal. And unlike the favor of Zeus, we know that they exist even if we, in our ignorance, don't perceive them.

"Luck" is what we call good decisions made in ignorance. As you come to understand your choices and the consequences of those choices, "luck" becomes nothing more--and nothing less--than talent.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

For what it's worth... Stephanie Meyer did study and work on her craft. She took classes from Dave Farland/Wolverton, for example.  A lot of people downplay the work they took to get where they are and say things like "oh, I got lucky" because of the pushback you see when you say "I worked for it"... because people automatically try to take that as an admonishment that if they don't have what they want, they aren't working hard enough. 

Someone else succeeding isn't a put-down of others. I realize that there are a lot of feels in this business and that green-eyed monster can hit any of us at any time, but... calling it "luck" negates so much hard work and smart decision making and testing out different things that it is sort of insulting to look at someone who has achieved something and tell them it was luck.

Do what you want to do. But not every path is going to lead to the same place.  There are many paths to financial success and growing a readership, but they all involve lots and lots of work, AND being smart about where you put your efforts.  If something isn't working today, don't think it'll magically start working tomorrow.


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

If you work hard you are more likely to be in a position to take advantage of opportunities that come your way. If you have self belief or even confidence because you've worked so hard you will be more likely see the opportunities when they arise.
Others then look at you and call it "luck".

That's different from random chance. IMO


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

When I was twelve, I started studying ballet. I was late to the game and had a lot of catching up to do as most pre-professional ballerinas start a few years earlier. I worked hard-ish and by the time I was fifteen, I had a contract with a training company attached to a professional company. I also managed to meet a boy, fall in love, and quit.

Fast forward a few years and I was nineteen, overweight, out of shape, and swimming in the repercussions of bad decisions. When I told my family I was going back into ballet, they laughed at me and told me that ship had sailed -hell, I'd almost missed it the first time I tried to jump on. I didn't listen. I started getting up at four am so I could get to the gym before work. After work, I went straight to the studio and took every available class I could get my butt into and often didn't stumble back into my apartment until somewhere near ten o'clock. I did this every day. I didn't take weekends off, although it felt like I had a day off because I didn't have to go to the work. I ended up getting that professional contract.

I got it because I worked my butt off (and I was quick to point that out to anyone who called me 'lucky'), but I also had a number of factors working in my favor. I had the right physical proportions (although again, I had to work hard to keep those proportions slim enough for the industry), the right amount of mobility in my joints, the ability to hear music and interpret what I heard, the ability to act - to communicate to my audience without the luxury of words, and I had a work ethic that could rival the best of the best.

An injury ended my career and I began teaching and selling choreography. I created another set of lofty goals that most assumed were unattainable for someone in my position and after studying and practicing and practicing and studying, I achieved them. Sure, I had the right students show up at the right time, but I also worked my butt off to be sure I had the right information to give to the right students. When my colleagues called me lucky, I shrugged. Sure. Would I have gotten where I was going if I hadn't had girls with the right combination of physical gifts, intellectual tenacity, artistic ability, and work ethic walk through my door? Maybe not. But would those kids have gotten where they got to without me taking the time to understand the psychology of teaching young artists? Maybe not. And to take it one step further, those girls walked through my door BECAUSE they'd heard about the kind of teaching environment I'd created.

Now, here I am setting lofty goals for myself in the self-publishing arena. Will I achieve them? I sure hope so, but I refuse to believe that I will _simply_ because I have a history of making the improbable happen. I can't afford to believe that. I know the kind of consistent work and concentrated dedication it takes to reach the kind of success I expect out of myself EVEN when the stars align and some amount of 'luck' factors in.

To tie all this in to the theme of this thread, what if, when I was nineteen and getting up at 4 am to go to the gym, I started lifting heavy weights? Sure, I'd have lost weight and gotten in shape, but I would have lost a lot of flexibility. I'd have built big bulky muscles instead of the long lean ones I needed. I may have actually put on weight and made it even harder for my partners to lift me in class and rehearsal. Sure, I'd still have been working very hard, but that hard work would have actually set me back from my goals.

What if, when I decided I wanted to create an atmosphere that produced elite ballet students with healthy self-images, I spent my time studying how to teach tap to adults? Or, let's hop out of the realm of the absurd, what if I'd simply studied how to teach adults? I might have been armed with knowledge, but I wouldn't have been armed with the right kind of knowledge and would have fallen short of my goals.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> Yet when one book skyrockets and another one doesn't, I'm disinclined to call that "luck." That just sounds like another word for the supernatural, like we somehow think that the book was favored by the gods. Like that author's fortune can be explained by propitious omens of serpents or birds on the day of the book's release.
> 
> That's nonsense.
> 
> ...


See, I can both agree and disagree with all of this, depending on how "luck" is defined. I've released similar box sets, for example, with the same themes, the same potential audiences, and in some cases the same authors where one set goes gangbusters and the other makes solid but not stellar sales. I've released sister boxes at the same time destined to snuggle in each others' alsobots where each get the same promotion on ad sites and most of the same promotion from authors in both sets. In some cases, I knew which of the boxes would go big and which wouldn't; in other cases, I was surprised. And in other cases, I can point directly to changes in algorithms that crushed a box where another, released before the algo change, escaped unscathed.

I can look at performance on other venues where titles might perform identically, but their performance on Amazon might differ by 20-30K sales. Why? Because one title might get featured face-out in an Ammy mail during its run because it was in the right rank in the right genre that Amazon's bots decided to feature that week and the other doesn't get that same visibility. One title might wind up as the first alsobot for another title that gets a Gold Box Deal or hangs in the Top 100 for weeks. Maybe one title was in the alsobots of another book and an influential blogger picked it up from there and blogged and tweeted it.

I might do all I can to position a title and get it to rank #1 in its subcategory (let's say Military SF) with an overall rank of #400, but if the SF Newsletter goes out that week featuring First Contact, SF Romance, and SF Adventure, then that title doesn't get the love. But if a sister title has First Contact as a keyword, and it's #1 in that cat and is ranking #430, then it might get an extra 200 or 300 sales that day, which might be just the visibility boost needed to get sticky at a higher rank than the other box.

In that case, there is no agency, no precognition even. It's bots randomizing featured subcategories and one title happening to be picked up that week and the other not.

Conversely, sure, there's any number of times I had only to look at a cover, author(s), genre and marketing plan and been able to say with certainty before it's even released, "That puppy's gonna hit the USA Today list."

So yes, there is MUCH we can do to position ourselves to take advantage of opportunity, even to create opportunity. But sometimes, luck rides in on the back of a bot (or just random chance -- not necessarily invoking the supernatural in any way) to boost a book above its all-else-being-equal peers.

BUT, without all the right triggers being in place (cover, blurb, content, genre, marketing, etc -- things within an author's agency), then even a "lucky" book can ultimately fail (by which I mean not live up to the opportunity granted it). So both luck and talent both _can_ play a part. And the ratios can skew the range from 0:1 to 1:0.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

It's true in that books are very subjective things. Some things will find an audience and some never will. Some require a little extra help to do so, and some will never succeed no matter how much help you give them.  You can never call "all things being equal" a thing in writing, I don't think, because no two books (or box sets) are the same. Too many variables. 

However, that doesn't mean it is all completely out of our control. That's why I advocate trying new things. If the current series or book or promo plan or whatever you are doing isn't working, take control. Do the things you can to figure out if something can salvage what you have, or if your efforts are better spent on a new project etc.  None of that is luck.

What I was trying to say with my original post is that instead of thinking that what doesn't work today might work tomorrow, maybe try something else today. Don't wait for the magical "long-term" that might never arrive. Make plans and work on things now, not later.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

Annie B said:


> What I was trying to say with my original post is that instead of thinking that what doesn't work today might work tomorrow, maybe try something else today. Don't wait for the magical "long-term" that might never arrive. Make plans and work on things now, not later.


Wholeheartedly agree with you, Annie. I feel many people have got so hung up on the marathon metaphor that they've failed to see the fantastic logic of your initial post.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> If I did that, I wouldn't read ANYTHING on this site.


hehe. This one made me laugh, thanks


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

Lunachick said:


> If you work hard you are more likely to be in a position to take advantage of opportunities that come your way. If you have self belief or even confidence because you've worked so hard you will be more likely see the opportunities when they arise.
> Others then look at you and call it "luck".
> 
> That's different from random chance. IMO


Totally agree! I don't think any writer has ever had great success without a lot of hard work! But as to the timing and even the manner of the "breakout" there are so many variables.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> See, I can both agree and disagree with all of this, depending on how "luck" is defined. I've released similar box sets, for example, with the same themes, the same potential audiences, and in some cases the same authors where one set goes gangbusters and the other makes solid but not stellar sales. I've released sister boxes at the same time destined to snuggle in each others' alsobots where each get the same promotion on ad sites and most of the same promotion from authors in both sets. In some cases, I knew which of the boxes would go big and which wouldn't; in other cases, I was surprised. And in other cases, I can point directly to changes in algorithms that crushed a box where another, released before the algo change, escaped unscathed. ...


 Redacted to save space

But they are not identical. They are different stories, different characters, which makes it impossible to compare them. Even when written by the same author, some stories will resonate with readers while others don't.

When I first got my Kindle, I downloaded a novel that I absolutely loved. I couldn't wait for the author to come out with the promised sequel. When she did, I started to read it, but didn't love it and never finished it. Same setting, new characters, different story. It was just as well written as the first, but there was something missing. It just didn't have the magic the first book did. Apparently, I am not alone, because it does not have nearly the buzz and fanfare the first book had.

I suppose someone could say she got lucky with her first book, but I am more inclined to believe that the second just didn't resonate with readers to the degree the first book did. That's not chance. That's just the way it works in this business (and many others). Sometimes you write something that readers love, sometimes you don't.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

heidi_g said:


> Totally agree! I don't think any writer has ever had great success without a lot of hard work! But as to the timing and even the manner of the "breakout" there are so many variables.


Yeah. That's why I like that Serena quote. She worked her *ss off so that when her time came, she'd be ready. We can do the same.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

vlmain said:


> Redacted to save space
> 
> But they are not identical. They are different stories, different characters, which makes it impossible to compare them. Even when written by the same author, some stories will resonate with readers while others don't.
> 
> ...


There's very little doubt in my mind that you could release the EXACT same book--same material, blurb, cover--same everything...release it at two different time frames and get two totally different results.

There is a lot of luck in what makes a certain book shoot up the charts at a certain platform, and then another book not do that. Obviously, when you release books with differing content it becomes much more difficult to tell what factors create a home run versus a single or a strikeout.

But you cannot ever know for sure what will happen with any given book, which is why I've always advocated for high volume if you want to have the best chance at "success."

One of the very few things a writer can control these days is their output. If, instead of getting one swing at a ball, you can instead take twenty or thirty--who has better odds of hitting a home run? The batter who takes one swing or the batter who takes fifty?

In that circumstance, even an inferior hitter can have a better chance at a home run than the superior hitter, just because of the amount of chances they get at hitting the dang ball.

It's how I've built my career in indie books, and it eliminates some of the luck factor, in that on any given book there is a luck element, but over time, I'm likely to have some hits and some triples and homers...


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

gorvnice said:


> One of the very few things a writer can control these days is their output. If, instead of getting one swing at a ball, you can instead take twenty or thirty--who has better odds of hitting a home run? The batter who takes one swing or the batter who takes fifty?
> 
> In that circumstance, even an inferior hitter can have a better chance at a home run than the superior hitter, just because of the amount of chances they get at hitting the dang ball.


On the other hand, maybe the first batter only needed one swing because he took the time to study the pitcher. ;-)

And I suspect that if the inferior batter had walked up to Hank Aaron and told him his grand slam was sheer luck, he's have gotten a bat upside his head.

I am not in any way disputing your position that the more titles you have, the better your chances, however.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

gorvnice said:


> There's very little doubt in my mind that you could release the EXACT same book--same material, blurb, cover--same everything...release it at two different time frames and get two totally different results.
> 
> There is a lot of luck in what makes a certain book shoot up the charts at a certain platform, and then another book not do that. Obviously, when you release books with differing content it becomes much more difficult to tell what factors create a home run versus a single or a strikeout.
> 
> ...


It could also be argued that the increased number of chances (in this case, the more books out there) actually facilitates the 'opportunity' for luck, which in this case could mean a book hitting the 'sweet spot' with the right readers at the right time.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Jena H said:


> It could also be argued that the increased number of chances (in this case, the more books out there) actually facilitates the 'opportunity' for luck, which in this case could mean a book hitting the 'sweet spot' with the right readers at the right time.


Donald Maass (and other folks) talk about how writers who keep writing and learning and moving forward with their careers eventually hit on the happy intersection of craft and timing and have a breakout hit. The more stories you write and the more hours you put into learning and writing and reading, the luckier you get.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The person who hits a ton of balls AND studies the pitcher is going to be in the right place at the right time a suspicious %. That's what I'm saying.  Just writing tons of books won't necessarily sell those books. 

Hard work in this biz is about more than the craft side. It's about smart and hard work on the business side, too. You gotta do both.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

To me, LUCK is all those factors that you just don't control. It's picking the right subject or genre or something when you don't know better. That's how folks become darlings, but then see their careers crash when they aren't the darlings any more. You get lucky once. 

I have never been a darling despite my desire to be the darling. My first three titles did absolutely horrid, but they weren't wastes. My writing skill increased with every title. My covers improved substantially as well. I'm still learning this game, especially the promotional game. I've substantially decreased the writing time on my novels while increasing quality. I've stuck my nose into multiple writing blogs and learned far more of the business. Over the last year, I've engaged in strategic reading of my genre in order to steal from the best. 

I think that writing is like a marathon because marathon runners are always training for the next race, just like we're always learning the market for the next book. Like writing a book, the race ends and then you're off to the next thing. The development continues, the next race being a new opportunity.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Douglas Milewski said:


> To me, LUCK is all those factors that you just don't control. It's picking the right subject or genre or something when you don't know better. That's how folks become darlings, but then see their careers crash when they aren't the darlings any more. You get lucky once.
> 
> I have never been a darling despite my desire to be the darling. My first three titles did absolutely horrid, but they weren't wastes. My writing skill increased with every title. My covers improved substantially as well. I'm still learning this game, especially the promotional game. I've substantially decreased the writing time on my novels while increasing quality. I've stuck my nose into multiple writing blogs and learned far more of the business. Over the last year, I've engaged in strategic reading of my genre in order to steal from the best.
> 
> I think that writing is like a marathon because marathon runners are always training for the next race, just like we're always learning the market for the next book. Like writing a book, the race ends and then you're off to the next thing. The development continues, the next race being a new opportunity.


I'm talking about marketing and business side, not the writing. I don't know how many times I need to state that. 

If you are happy where you are in the business side, clearly whatever you are doing is working how you want. Not everyone wants to sell their books or have that be a priority and that's fine. But I hear a lot of people who wish they had more sales, or sales at all, and then seem to think there is nothing they can really do. That's why I made this post. There is so much in our control.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Annie B said:


> There is so much in our control.


This. 
SO much within our control. SO SO much.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

C. Gockel said:


> Annie, I think what the author of this post is doing is FINE. He/she is enjoying writing and building a readership. With a full-time job it is really hard to do the promotions you are "supposed" to do, the blog posts you are supposed to do, and the social media you are supposed to do. And frankly, it's not worth your health. You can acquire diseases that are preventable by not taking care of yourself, and some of those you can't go back from easily if at all. When he/she "retires" they can put their foot on the gas of the promotions machine.
> 
> Also, burn out is a real. Yes, if you can fit your "big idea" into an established genre, it's great. But if your big idea doesn't fit an easily into an established genre ... well, honestly my favorite stories lately have been like that. I adore Nolander: http://www.amazon.com/Nolander-Emanations-urban-fantasy-Book-ebook/dp/B007R6PPZA/ and American Ghoul: http://www.amazon.com/American-Ghoul-Walt-Morton-ebook/dp/B00AFCTMCU/ . I also love stories about creatures that aren't as popular in the paranormal world: http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Hunt-Faerie-Sworn-Book-ebook/dp/B00KO76LC0/ (Love Nieto's voice, too, very lyrical). I'm' really glad all of these authors above didn't write what I expect from urban fantasy/paranormal.


You're such a terrific friend and booster, C.  And of course, your own series is probably the best example out there of what you're describing: something that catches readers' attention because it's a little different -- and, in your case, totally awesome.

I do see Annie's larger point. If you want to achieve financial success, and if you are not currently seeing _any _signs of that success, continuing to plug away at the same things you've been doing is _probably_ not the way to become successful. No doubt there are exceptions -- people who keep doing one thing for a long time, have a breakout moment, and get rich. But for most people, an unfruitful tactic is likely to remain just that, so continuing to pursue that tactic doggedly is not likely to lead to big bucks. It _might_, yes, but the odds aren't in your favor. I think this is the point Annie is making, and it's really a pretty limited one: *if* making substantial money is your goal, don't just automatically keep doing stuff that has shown no signs of working. "Write another book [exactly the way you did last time]" isn't always good advice.

The one caveat I think I'd offer is that sometimes it's hard to know whether or not something is working. Are you seeing signs of building success, or are you seeing a brief flare that isn't going to build into anything sustainable? With my own series, I'm really not sure.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Annie B said:


> If you are happy where you are in the business side, clearly whatever you are doing is working how you want. Not everyone wants to sell their books or have that be a priority and that's fine. But I hear a lot of people who wish they had more sales, or sales at all, and then seem to think there is nothing they can really do. That's why I made this post. There is so much in our control.


One thing I want to add is that there are tons of threads on how to advertise, how to choose covers, how to do marketing, etc. I'm often surprised to see someone who clearly has sold hundreds of thousands of books weigh in, only to hear a lot of "well, that's your opinion" in response. Someone else comes on, really loud, and says that covers don't matter, and advertising should be word of mouth, etc. This person does not sell so well, yet this opinion is treated as equally valid.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> So, Michael, you that just because you've sold lots and lots and lots of books and I haven't sold any, and I don't know the first thing about marketing, that your opinion on marketing should be given more weight on this board than mine? I am deeply offended. Mods! Mods! Where's a mod when you need one.


LUDICROUS, right?!?!


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> One thing I want to add is that there are tons of threads on how to advertise, how to choose covers, how to do marketing, etc. I'm often surprised to see someone who clearly has sold hundreds of thousands of books weigh in, only to hear a lot of "well, that's your opinion" in response. Someone else comes on, really loud, and says that covers don't matter, and advertising should be word of mouth, etc. This person does not sell so well, yet this opinion is treated as equally valid.


I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that covers don't matter and advertising should be left to word-of-mouth.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Jena H said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that covers don't matter and advertising should be left to word-of-mouth.


Someone literally said this re: covers not two days ago here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,217982.msg3045475.html#msg3045475
And I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say some form of "I don't waste my time on marketing. The best marketing is to write the next book." I myself used to subscribe to that when I started self-pubbing because I'd heard it SO often here. And it's just not correct. Yes, write the next book. And also market the work you have out currently. It's not an "either" "or" thing.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Thank you for finding that. Yes, sometimes people come right out and say it. More often, someone puts up a cover they whipped up in MS Paint and people shy away from saying what really needs to be said: "Amateur presentation will lead to hobby-level sales."


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> Someone literally said this re: covers not two days ago here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,217982.msg3045475.html#msg3045475
> And I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say some form of "I don't waste my time on marketing. The best marketing is to write the next book." I myself used to subscribe to that when I started self-pubbing because I'd heard it SO often here. And it's just not correct. Yes, write the next book. And also market the work you have out currently. It's not an "either" "or" thing.


I believe there was more to the conversation than just the words "covers don't matter," without regard to the context.

As for the advertising being word-of-mouth... if someone has said that and is satisfied with his/her results with it, that's their business and their opinion, but I don't think anyone has ever tried to convince others that it "should be" word of mouth. I think the poster who said must have been engaging in a bit of hyperbole.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

There was a whole thread of conversation, yes. But the person's comment re: covers is here in its entirety:

"I agree with the rest: It doesn't look like Sci-Fi.  That said, it can't be hurting sales all that much, with 45 customer reviews and an award.  Which goes to prove my theory that covers don't matter.  People will scream that they do, but here is the proof.  I'd think about putting something about the award on the cover."

I'm not sure how much clearer it can get than that...
As for if someone said something about advertising being word of mouth and that being their business, well, yes. But this is a public forum and if they are going to tout that opinion as if it's truth, then they should expect people who have had different experiences to come forward and respond, no? I mean, isn't that the point of a forum? Otherwise it would just be a bunch of people stating their opinions and then walking away.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Thank you so much, Annie B and the others who are selling well, for sharing your insights here. I have no doubt that eventually you will leave in frustration the way so many other top-sellers have, but thank you for being here while you are. 

To sum up what I believe is Annie B's point:


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jena H said:


> As for the advertising being word-of-mouth... if someone has said that and is satisfied with his/her results with it, that's their business and their opinion, but I don't think anyone has ever tried to convince others that it "should be" word of mouth. I think the poster who said must have been engaging in a bit of hyperbole.


That was KKR's entire premise!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> That wasis KKR's entire premise!


http://kriswrites.com/2011/04/06/the-business-rusch-promotion/


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> http://kriswrites.com/2011/04/06/the-business-rusch-promotion/


Jus saying that this post is more than four years old. People are allowed to change their minds over time. Not saying she has or hasn't, but it's and old, old post.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Jus saying that this post is more than four years old. People are allowed to change their minds over time. Not saying she has or hasn't, but it's and old, old post.


True.

And people are still taking the workshops and being told this same thing.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Patty Jansen said:


> Jus saying that this post is more than four years old. People are allowed to change their minds over time. Not saying she has or hasn't, but it's and old, old post.


There's some things in that post I heartily agree with and some things I find to be horrible advice.

It's interesting, because Kris never mentions it that I noticed, but nowadays alsoboughts and the algo's that shove our books in front of readers' noses at Amazon and B&N and Kobo--that's the new word of mouth. It works the same way. Hey, you liked this--here's this thing that's similar.

I believe that the current organic model Amazon has in place is its own promotion and that working within that system is the best way to promote books. Sometimes outside promo is needed--and some, like Mark Dawson, are particularly good at that.

But I haven't found outside promo's to be necessary, personally. At least, not much of the time.

But the part in her post where she says we should sell books traditionally so that the trad houses will promote? That's a really horrible idea, in my opinion, because most of the time publishers don't promote authors very well anyhow. If they did something above and beyond to get your name out there, then fine. But they don't (except in rare cases with six or seven figure deal authors).


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> True.
> 
> And people are still taking the workshops and being told this same thing.


I think more than anything, this thread is about using your own judgement and admitting to yourself that something you're doing isn't working as well as you want. If something is not working, do something else. If you're following whichever person who is telling people about their methods, and their method isn't working for you (heck, their methods might not even work for them, and you should know how to check that), FFS, abandon it and try something else.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I have great covers on one series but the sales are still horrible.

Why can't great covers be enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Crystal- I don't actually need answers to any of this (this thread really isn't for that, but you could start your own if you want), but here are things things to think about: are your covers actually great? Or are they just pretty/cool/whatever but don't necessarily fit/attract your intended audience? Does your book description have a good hook in it and show character, genre, and stakes without being overly talky? What's your pricing scheme? How many books do you have in the series and how have you promoted them? How many reviews do you have? Are your calls to action for mailing list and reviews easily visible in your files? Are the books professionally edited? Do your keywords actually apply to your genre and target your readership? Is the formatting good? Does the beginning of the first book have a hook? Do the books fit reader expectations and genre conventions? 

See? All things in your control.   If something isn't working, try other things.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> "I agree with the rest: It doesn't look like Sci-Fi. That said, it can't be hurting sales all that much, with 45 customer reviews and an award. Which goes to prove my theory that covers don't matter. People will scream that they do, but here is the proof. I'd think about putting something about the award on the cover."


Am I the only one who finds it rather funny that the OP says covers don't matter, then suggests putting something about an award on the book cover, all in the same paragraph?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Annie,

I'm just being silly/sorta making a point that you can't rely on marketing alone.

I know why that series isn't selling-- it doesn't meet genre expectations. I've already moved on to something else.

But they really are nice covers.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

katrina46 said:


> I've always thought the it's a marathon, not a sprint analogy wasn't encouraging you to go slow, but telling you not to get discouraged if you don't see overnight success right away because like it nor not, it takes most writers time. I see a lot of writers on here say it took a year of working their butt off. Maybe I just took it differently than you did.


Katrina--Thanks for pointing out this critical distinction. This is exactly what that saying means. Unfortunately, most of those who preach this have themselves sprinted to wild success, selling many thousands of books in their first few months following release of their debut novel. IMHO, this saying is intended to be a placebo to deflect attention away from their own improbable success and how they achieved it.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Katrina--Thanks for pointing out this critical distinction. This is exactly what that saying means. Unfortunately, most of those who preach this have themselves sprinted to wild success, selling many thousands of books in their first few months following release of their debut novel. IMHO, this saying is intended to be a placebo to deflect attention away from their own improbable success and how they achieved it.


Sometimes, what you're seeing is overnight success after years of struggle.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Mike Dennis said:


> Katrina--Thanks for pointing out this critical distinction. This is exactly what that saying means. Unfortunately, most of those who preach this have themselves sprinted to wild success, selling many thousands of books in their first few months following release of their debut novel. IMHO, this saying is intended to be a placebo to deflect attention away from their own improbable success and how they achieved it.


I think it's fine if you want to think of it that way *as long as* using the "marathon" thing isn't a crutch or an excuse. I see it used as an excuse a lot. People complaining about where they are at but saying things like "well, if I just keep going, I'm in this for the long term, so it'll be okay" instead of looking at what they are doing today and fixing things today. Which isn't to say that every test and fix will have immediate results, but I can generally tell if I change a cover or a price if it is going to work long term by looking at a few weeks of data, for example.

So it's fine not to be an overnight success. Most people aren't (I certainly wasn't). But using the marathon thing as an excuse to not be doing everything you can to succeed now? That's letting things within your control slip away from you, and that's not going to maximize chances for success in this business.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Annie B said:


> I think it's fine if you want to think of it that way *as long as* using the "marathon" thing isn't a crutch or an excuse. *I see it used as an excuse a lot. People complaining about where they are at but saying things like "well, if I just keep going, I'm in this for the long term, so it'll be okay" instead of looking at what they are doing today and fixing things today.* Which isn't to say that every test and fix will have immediate results, but I can generally tell if I change a cover or a price if it is going to work long term by looking at a few weeks of data, for example.
> 
> So it's fine not to be an overnight success. Most people aren't (I certainly wasn't). But using the marathon thing as an excuse to not be doing everything you can to succeed now? That's letting things within your control slip away from you, and that's not going to maximize chances for success in this business.


Do you think perhaps you're making an assumption here? How do you know those people _aren't_ "fixing things today?" Researching their market, buying ads or other marketing, etc. They could be like the proverbial duck, looking from the outside like they're not doing anything when under the surface they're paddling furiously, trying different strategies. After all, the duck is still going somewhere, still making forward progress. If a poster actually says "My books aren't selling, I'm not doing any marketing, I have no long-term plan, and don't know where to reach my audience" (and I'm sure there _has_ been some version of that, at some point), then I'm not going to assume that people who say they have slow sales are doing nothing. Again, I'm sure there are posters who have admitted that, in which case all [constructive] criticism is warranted, but unless they have said it, I'm not going to assume it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, I'm making assumptions. I assume if people are complaining about low sales and poor visibility, and then saying things like "it's okay, I'll keep doing what I'm doing because I'm in this for the long haul, so it'll work out eventually" which... I see versions of that on these boards and elsewhere a lot... I do assume they aren't doing things that work. I see people complain about sales when their covers are awful or even just mediocre, their keywords are all over the place, their blurbs are boring or don't tell me what genre and stakes are, their pricing is out of whack for their genre, they are complaining that covers/advertising/etc is too expensive, they say things like "I don't want to pay for editing/covers/etc, because I don't expect this book to sell, but if it does I'll just pay for it then" etc...

And yeah, I assume those people are making decisions on the business side that are not going to lead them to success. Doing the same things over and over and hoping for different results isn't going to work 99% of the time.

So sure, I make assumptions based on the data I'm given. Just like I study people who sell hundreds of thousands of books a year and make assumptions about their business decisions based on the data they give.

In my own experience, when you make a change like cover or pricing or advertising or tightening a blurb... you can tell within a couple weeks if it is working at all. Bigger changes, like switching to new genres, going into new markets and new platforms, writing a new series, etc, take more time to implement, but again... you release two or three books in a series, odds are you are going to know right away if something isn't working and that changes have to be made if those books are going to sell (and it might be that those books won't sell, not all books do, no matter how many ducks in a row you line up).  

What I keep trying to say is that this business...the BUSINESS SIDE which is PUBLISHING... has a ton of factors within our control.  Pretending that short term results have nothing to do with long term success is silly.  Long term success is built out of a continuing series of short term successes.

If you are constantly tweaking things and learning stuff and trying new things and have never heard yourself saying "oh well, it's a marathon, I'm thinking long term so short term benefits don't matter so much"... then clearly this whole thread is not aimed at you. Carry on.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Do you think perhaps you're making an assumption here? How do you know those people _aren't_ "fixing things today?" If a poster actually says "My books aren't selling, I'm not doing any marketing, I have no long-term plan, and don't know where to reach my audience" (and I'm sure there _has_ been some version of that, at some point), then I'm not going to assume that people who say they have slow sales are doing nothing. Again, I'm sure there are posters who have admitted that, in which case all [constructive] criticism is warranted, but unless they have said it, I'm not going to assume it.


I don't think she's assuming anything. I see writers on forums all over the net stating exactly that - "I don't have the money, time or inclination to market or even do social media, get editing, have professional covers, _______, but I can't make more money no matter how hard I squeeze my eyebrows together."

I get email/PMs every day asking how to get my readership without time or money invested. Without having professional support (editors, proofreaders, graphic artists).

The bottom line, it's not possible. Maybe an author can achieve their personal goals with none of those things, but no one gets to my level of sales without those things and yet I have people asking me how to do exactly that. How in the world can I tell people how to do something that I can't manage myself? Some people really ARE that clueless and lazy. Some people really DO feel entitled to sell simply because they wrote something and hit publish.

As for the overnight success thing. I also get email saying things to the effect of "You just popped up and stayed up and I want to do that, so how did you." But the reality is I've been at this for 14 years. I had 14 traditionally published books by NY houses. I didn't have success overnight. I had big success after about 11 years. Hardly lightning in a bottle. But no one wants to hear that it takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice and most often TIME to achieve a large readership.

And again, if you are happy with where you are then that's awesome, but if you're constantly whining about low sales and in turn doing nothing about it and completely ignoring advice from authors doing better than you, then your whining is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And the eventuality is that authors doing better than you will stop giving you advice altogether because it's a waste of their time.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

TLR: Writers, stop complaining in public and get to work.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I think it's fine if you want to think of it that way *as long as* using the "marathon" thing isn't a crutch or an excuse. I see it used as an excuse a lot. People complaining about where they are at but saying things like "well, if I just keep going, I'm in this for the long term, so it'll be okay" instead of looking at what they are doing today and fixing things today. Which isn't to say that every test and fix will have immediate results, but I can generally tell if I change a cover or a price if it is going to work long term by looking at a few weeks of data, for example.


I agree with this. I didn't start marketing in any meaningful way until I was three books in; but even with my piddly sales I had great reviews that were unsolicited. I knew something was going right.



> Yes, write the next book. And also market the work you have out currently. It's not an "either" "or" thing.


But it is an either/or thing when you're raising young children and have a full-time job. The one hour you get to yourself a day (that you beg and plead for and have to negotiate and arrange childcare) is better spent writing the next book. I admire one of the guys here who said he wrote everyday on the train during his three hour commute. But you know what, it also made me bitter ... I didn't have three freakin' minutes too pee when my daughter was a baby and my son was four. A three hour commute where I had a place for a lap top would have been kind of heaven.


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## Sela Carsen (Jun 28, 2014)

So let's say I've done the work.
Good story, professionally edited.
Good blurb, good cover, hitting the keywords, right price.
Not in KU, but it's the first in a series, and it's a short story, so KU isn't worth it to me yet. When I get to the second or third story, maybe.
Active on social media, mostly FB, but some Twitter.

This is my first solo release in almost 5 yrs that isn't a re-release of an old title.

And I've sold 50 copies in a week. That's not good. It may be better than some, but I'm savvy enough to know that those numbers suck.

I will add that I'm going to start rebranding my covers beginning with the next release. I had an epiphany over the last week about branding my covers, but it'll take a while to get that rolling. In the meantime, I'm not making enough money to pay for editing and covers.

So, yes, I'm looking at the long game. I'd be stupid not to. And I know that this isn't going to be the story that catapults me to fame and fortune. But I can't spend hours a week fiddling with this, other than what's absolutely necessary, because I've got one story to write on a short deadline, and two to edit and prep for release within the next 6 weeks.

I agree that it's foolish to just release a story into the wild and expect it to take off like a rocket without any help, but you can't keep re-editing and re-branding and re-everything when you need to keep writing forward and looking ahead.

It's not an either/or, marathon or sprint, as others have said before me. It's having a long-term plan, while doing the best you can with what's in front of you.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> I agree with this. I didn't start marketing in any meaningful way until I was three books in; but even with my piddly sales I had great reviews that were unsolicited. I knew something was going right.
> 
> But it is an either/or thing when you're raising young children and have a full-time job. The one hour you get to yourself a day (that you beg and plead for and have to negotiate and arrange childcare) is better spent writing the next book. I admire one of the guys here who said he wrote everyday on the train during his three hour commute. But you know what, it also made me bitter ... I didn't have three freakin' minutes too pee when my daughter was a baby and my son was four. A three hour commute where I had a place for a lap top would have been kind of heaven.


For you, sure. You are prioritizing family over the business. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone said there was, no? Also... you do promote in many ways. So... don't think you are ignoring the business side, because I've seen you doing the opposite even though to you it might feel like there is never enough time to get everything done. So... this post clearly doesn't apply to you, because what you are doing is getting results. 

(though I will always maintain in your case, G, that if you changed those covers up you'd be superstar status. I might be wrong though, I admit that too  )

Sela Carsen- of course you can't keep fiddling. There's a point where one has to recognize that part of changing things up means doing something new. Not all books will sell, no matter how right everything is with branding/covers/whatever. 50 sales in a week is not rocket territory, true, but not bad for a short story either. Get a second book out quickly and I imagine you could build on that with promo of book 1 etc. Hopefully you'll find the money to invest in covers and editing (though it looks like your new story has a nice cover already), because without those it's tough to succeed... Nobody should start a business (and publishing is a business!) without capital, in my mind. It's just setting yourself up for failure. You wouldn't open a restaurant with a cardboard box on the side of road making people eat from their hands and hope that the food is good enough that people will pay so you can afford a real building and tableware at some point, would you?


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## Sela Carsen (Jun 28, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Sela Carsen- of course you can't keep fiddling. There's a point where one has to recognize that part of changing things up means doing something new. Not all books will sell, no matter how right everything is with branding/covers/whatever. 50 sales in a week is not rocket territory, true, but not bad for a short story either. Get a second book out quickly and I imagine you could build on that with promo of book 1 etc. Hopefully you'll find the money to invest in covers and editing (though it looks like your new story has a nice cover already), because without those it's tough to succeed... Nobody should start a business (and publishing is a business!) without capitol, in my mind. It's just setting yourself up for failure. You wouldn't open a restaurant with a cardboard box on the side of road making people eat from their hands and hope that the food is good enough that people will pay so you can afford a real building and tableware at some point, would you?


Whoof. I've got capital, but the money's going out faster than it's coming in, what with paying for edits and covers. I'm scrambling and praying that I'll at least break even soon.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Also... you do promote in many ways. So... don't think you are ignoring the business side, because I've seen you doing the opposite even though to you it might feel like there is never enough time to get everything done. So... this post clearly doesn't apply to you, because what you are doing is getting results.


Oh, my kids are 4 and 9 now and I was able to *almost* quit my job (only do a few hours a month now). I promote like a fiend; but I couldn't do it and keep my health early on. I get worried about people here who are working full-time getting depressed because they can't do it all and people here will tell them they are basically just making excuses (someone at some point told me I had to stop watching TV. I didn't watch TV then -- I still only watch about 30 minutes a week).

You need some things in life: sunshine, exercise, good food, and sleep. Neglect any one of those for any prolonged period of time and you'll suffer health consequences that may or may not be reversible.



> (though I will always maintain in your case, G, that if you changed those covers up you'd be superstar status. I might be wrong though, I admit that too  )


Thanks, and I agree (well, I may not attain quite "rock star status" but I'll do better. Even ten more downloads a day would add up to a lot at the end of the year.) I've got 1-3.5 done. Now three more to go. I'm taking your advice on the titles, too. I'm going with "A Loki Series".


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> Oh, my kids are 4 and 9 now and I was able to *almost* quit my job (only do a few hours a month now). I promote like a fiend; but I couldn't do it and keep my health early on. I get worried about people here who are working full-time getting depressed because they can't do it all and people here will tell them they are basically just making excuses (someone at some point told me I had to stop watching TV. I didn't watch TV then -- I still only watch about 30 minutes a week).
> 
> You need some things in life: sunshine, exercise, good food, and sleep. Neglect any one of those for any prolonged period of time and you'll suffer health consequences that may or may not be reversible.
> 
> Thanks, and I agree (well, I may not attain quite "rock star status" but I'll do better. Even ten more downloads a day would add up to a lot at the end of the year.) I've got 1-3.5 done. Now three more to go. I'm taking your advice on the titles, too. I'm going with "A Loki Series".


Yay. Can't wait to see them 

I think part of that is people needing to tailor their expectations too, though. I've been seriously sick for the last year and a half and I estimate it has cost me about 300k in terms of lost income due to not being able to write for long stretches. While that makes me super sad, I also recognize that I'm doing what I can and that I have to accept that I'm not as successful as I could be due to life stuff.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I think part of that is people needing to tailor their expectations too, though. I've been seriously sick for the last year and a half and I estimate it has cost me about 300k in terms of lost income due to not being able to write for long stretches. While that makes me super sad, I also recognize that I'm doing what I can and that I have to accept that I'm not as successful as I could be due to life stuff.


I think this is really true (both this post and the concept of the whole thread) - I will admit I was one of those people that was like 'eh, it's a marathon, I'll work slowly for now' and after seeing this thread it made me realize that it doesn't have to be a marathon. The speed of everything depends on me and how much work I'm willing to put in. It sucks that since I have an intensive full-time job that I really only have 3-4 hours a night to devote to writing, especially since my first priority is taking care of my mental and physical health (I don't have bad physical health, but my mental health can get me all out of sorts and make writing difficult at times if I'm not careful). Then I look at the other time throughout the day where I could be doing productive stuff, but I'm not. First priority would be to fix that.

I've set my goal bar high, for now. I type fast, so I want to get a novel done every two months. The bigger question is whether or not that's sustainable over time. I've set a bunch of goals and deadlines, and we'll see how sticking to them goes.

Thank you for this kick in the pants.  I really appreciate it.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I thought the "marathon not a sprint" adage grew out of the "ebooks are forever" sound byte. Which I always amend in my head as "ebooks may be forever, but ebook sales are not" and "it's a marathon made up of a bunch of sprints."

Sure, there will always be "new to you" readers, and backlist will sell to them. But...

I work with a backlist catalog where the print versions have sold over 60 million copies. True fans will buy the books when they stumble across them. But the original audience for these books is aging. Some of the themes that were faddish back when seem a bit old-fashioned and out-of-touch today (perhaps like billionaires, BDSM and were-shifters might be passe in 10 years). Finding "new to you" readers those backlist books resonate with is _hard_. Keeping sales afloat is _hard_. I'm constantly adjusting, readjusting and looking for new sales opportunities and tactics. And this is for NYT-sales-level books. Most of us don't have those kinds of sales now with our frontlist books. As the market becomes more competitive still, how difficult will it be in the future to move backlist?

Sure, if you have a big enough catalog AND become a big enough name, your catalog will be an income-producer for years to come. But there's no guarantee that level of income will sustain you in retirement. Folk who bank on their writing style, themes and genres still resonating with readers in 10 or 20 years may well be in for that proverbial rude awakening. Not to mention new technology coming along that may well make current-form works obsolete.

Optimizing revenue today (in sprints made up of various tactics, including release schedules, cover changes, series changes, genre shakeups, marketing tools, etc) is a good way to ensure a nest egg for the future. To pile on another cliché: Make hay while the sun shines. Sprint while you have the energy and enthusiasm in a market ready to reward you. Be fluid, agile and open to new ideas. Have a 5-year plan, a 10-year plan, a 20-year plan, but run your business like this whole ebook market may collapse tomorrow. It won't. I'm not saying it will. I'm saying to bake those cheese-chasing sprints into your plans as hedges against misfortune. Improve sales today because life often has a way of cutting our marathons short.

None of that, of course, precludes producing and publishing "for the love" and letting the income fall where it will. Maybe toward the end of the marathon, there are fewer sprints. Maybe you never sprint at all. Maybe some books are dear to your heart and you nurture them along even when you know they will never be real income-producers even while you're sprinting furiously with the rest of your catalog. Maybe life interventions mean you can't sprint right now. As Annie insists, that's not what this thread is about. But there's also no reason you can't have both IF your goals are realistically aligned with your strategies (and vice-versa).


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I think part of that is people needing to tailor their expectations too, though. I've been seriously sick for the last year and a half and I estimate it has cost me about 300k in terms of lost income due to not being able to write for long stretches. While that makes me super sad, I also recognize that I'm doing what I can and that I have to accept that I'm not as successful as I could be due to life stuff.


I'm so sorry! I know you've spoken of this a little elsewhere. I think it's important to stay well; and working on things that keep you sane instead of what makes you 300k might be more financially rewarding in the long run. Some investments see immediate return, other things take a while but the returns are higher. Health is one of them.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> I'm so sorry! I know you've spoken of this a little elsewhere. I think it's important to stay well; and working on things that keep you sane instead of what makes you 300k might be more financially rewarding in the long run. Some investments see immediate return, other things take a while but the returns are higher. Health is one of them.


Yep, my plan is to do what I can right now, and come back strong after we get this figured out. 

Vrabinec- you can be a slower writer and still see lots of success, it just requires different strategies than a faster writer might use. I have friends who write one or two books a year and still bring in six figures. Some are just very good at the marketing elements, while some of them choose to sell to publishers because of what they write and where the market is at for those kinds of books, etc. Heck, due to my health I'm planning on releasing 3 books and a novella this year, which is incredibly slow for me, and I'll still pull in a healthy six figure income. Speed is only one component and can be compensated for with other things.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Yes, I'm making assumptions. I assume if people are complaining about low sales and poor visibility, and then saying things like "it's okay, I'll keep doing what I'm doing because I'm in this for the long haul, so it'll work out eventually" which... I see versions of that on these boards and elsewhere a lot... I do assume they aren't doing things that work. I see people complain about sales when their covers are awful or even just mediocre, their keywords are all over the place, their blurbs are boring or don't tell me what genre and stakes are, their pricing is out of whack for their genre, they are complaining that covers/advertising/etc is too expensive, they say things like "I don't want to pay for editing/covers/etc, because I don't expect this book to sell, but if it does I'll just pay for it then" etc...


Yes, but it's often hard to know what's wrong. Cover/blurb/keywords/story itself/marketing are all judgement calls. It's not easy to know which of them is wrong, and if so, how to fix them.

If there isn't any visibility on present books, then changing blurbs/covers etc. isn't going to help, you need to add marketing as well to see the effect. So there's plenty of investment there in terms of effort and money. And maybe it's better to wait until you have 3/4 books in the series to invest serious money, because more chance it'll be recouped. Or maybe the effort/money is better spent on concentrating on a new series. And if a person is a slow writer, that might be a year down the line, which sucks (having to wait that long with poor sales), but is throwing more money via new covers/more promotion on a book/series that is already in the hole due to initial editing/covers/marketing the best use of effort?

I guess my main point is that if a person already have covers/blurb/keywords, they were probably created to the best of the author's ability at the time. Maybe an outside expert can easily see what's wrong, but it's not as obvious to the author or they wouldn't put the book out like they did originally. And if they aren't sure what's wrong, then changing them and throwing marketing money at the changed version mightn't be the best choice.

Also, maybe an author has a first book in a series out. Put some marketing but nothing much happens. So they decide to wait until there are more books out, then put the first one free and concentrate marketing dollars at that point. (That would be a marathon plan.) But maybe that is the best plan if first book isn't breaking even on marketing dollars as a paid book, and the author doesn't see anything wrong with blurb/covers/keywords.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> But it is an either/or thing when you're raising young children and have a full-time job. The one hour you get to yourself a day (that you beg and plead for and have to negotiate and arrange childcare) is better spent writing the next book. I admire one of the guys here who said he wrote everyday on the train during his three hour commute. But you know what, it also made me bitter ... I didn't have three freakin' minutes too pee when my daughter was a baby and my son was four. A three hour commute where I had a place for a lap top would have been kind of heaven.


And this is where I leave you, lol. There are very few people who don't have SOME time SOMEwhere. If, like Annie says, you are making the conscious choice to prioritize other things first, then that is a choice. The concept that so many people "just don't have the time" devalues the sacrifice it takes to MAKE time just as much as saying "you're lazy" or "stop watching TV" devalues YOUR choices to put other concerns ahead of business.

When people say to me, "I wish I could do what you do, I just don't have the time!" it makes my sphincter clench. Like I was sitting here with all this pesky extra time laying around and was like "Huh. Would you look at that. LOADS of spare time. I think I'll write 58 books."

I tell you this not to be glib, but just to offer another perspective. Can you imagine how dismissive that seems and how frustrating that is to hear?

When I started writing seriously six years ago, I had a full time job, four kids under the age of 18, was taking a night class, and had to travel 250 miles every other weekend due to out of state family obligations that were non-negotiable. I commuted to work every day at 7 AM, got home at 6 PM, cooked dinner, hung with my family until 9 PM and then wrote (and learned and edited and marketed and studied craft) until 2 AM during the week.

Is that what I'm suggesting anyone else do? Nope. Because then I would invariably hear how bad that is for you, and how people need 7 hours of sleep, and how I'm going to burn out, and allllll the other excuses people give themselves for not pushing hard enough other than the truth (for most of us who are physically and emotionally able): Either you have the time and aren't willing to use it writing OR you're making a choice to put other things first right now. That is NOT a crime. That doesn't mean you're lazy. It just means that it might take longer for your situation to change and as long as you are at peace with that, then nothing else matters.

I think the most important thing is to look at your situation and determine whether you're (not YOU personally, but each individual writer) actually consciously prioritizing those things ahead of your business (WHICH IS FINE. Then this message isn't for you because you're well aware of what you're doing and why), or if you're just rationalizing not putting more time and effort in. Which happens all the time. I know all about making excuses, because I DO it (when it comes to exercise, lol). So for THOSE people, take a good hard look and if you're not happy with your progress, work harder. Where as this poster might not watch TV at all, I know most of us (me, for SURE, I LOVE TV!) can skip those shows we love so much for a better shot at living our passion. Can we choose to stay home when everyone else is out having fun one weekend night and invest that five hours into ourselves? Can we lose even ONE hour of sleep a couple nights a week for a year and commit to using that hour effectively? Can we ask a trusted friend or family member to watch the kids for a few hours one day a week? I'm betting that most people CAN do one of the above or more*.

Are there times we all go through something and that something has to come first? Of course. Life happens. You get a bad case of the flu, or you're in the midst of a big move, or you young kids who don't nap etc. But those things are almost always finite. Don't do yourself the disservice of using that as your forever excuse. Put a clock on it and then get back to work as often as you ACTUALLY CAN without suffering. Notice I didn't say "without sacrificing." Believe me, the vast majority of full time authors I know make LOADS of sacrifices to get (and stay) where they are.

I know it all sounds kind of harsh, but I swear to god, it's meant to be tough love. If you can push through the hardest part, the rewards are priceless. I didn't sleep a lot for the three years it took for me to quit my day job. But now, I don't HAVE a day job. And sure, I still work until 2 AM some nights, but it's MY work for MY business and I get to wake up whenever I want. No alarm clock, ever. And last year, my husband was able to leave his day job as well. It's a dream come true. A dream we still work very very hard to keep alive. But a dream nonetheless.

Anyway, I'm sure none of this changes anyone's mind. I just wanted to offer the other side of the "I don't have time" coin and let people reading know that most of us weren't sitting around with an excess of time. We MADE time. I can certainly be judged for that because it took away time from my family, and alone time with my husband. I've missed my share of holidays and birthday parties and spent part of my family vacations in the hotel room writing. I was sleep deprived and definitely didn't call friends enough. But I always looked at it as an investment in my family. I wasn't doing it TO them, I was doing it FOR them. And now that hubs was able to retire, I'm able to sock money away for colleges, have a massive backlist with residual income that will be their inheritance, and feel happy and fulfilled as a person, I feel like it was worth it. And they would say the same.

*If you're physically ill, struggling with depression, you have triplet newborns or are a single mom working three jobs or something equally draining and you really don't have the time or ability despite having the desire, I feel for you. That must be really hard to have no support or time for anything in your life, and you must feel very helpless  I hope that the pressure eases soon and you can get some relief <3


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> As long as you're a good enough writer to begin with, and there's no guarantee of that.


Well, yes. If you aren't a good writer, you should not be publishing yet. I realize that's an unpopular thing to say, but... seriously. All my marketing advice is always assuming that you have the foundation of a good book. If you can't write good books, this is not the business for you. I'd never tell a terrible cook how to make it as a professional chef, either.


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## Sela Carsen (Jun 28, 2014)

I'll throw this on the fire and see what happens.

I took a 5 year long hiatus from writing and publishing. My mom moved in with us, we moved house, one of my children psychologically cracked up, then the other one had medical issues. I had to homeschool until they got better. Even with all that, it wasn't that I didn't have the TIME to write, it was that I didn't have the head space, or the heart space. And yes, that heart space matters. 

Before we can do the business of publishing, we can't ignore that what we do is an art. The stories come from a place that has nothing to do with business. And if you can't access that place because you're ill, or depressed, or exhausted...you have a couple of choices.

I know writers who use that pain and anger and fear and guilt, and they channel it into their writing because the writing is what makes their real life bearable. 

We're not all that writer. We're not. 

Or you can focus on what's in front of you, and put the writing off until later.

It absolutely killed my career. Any momentum I had going in is gone. Pfft. I might as well be a rank newbie for all the name recognition I have. I'm rebuilding entirely from scratch.

And it was worth it.

My family needed me, present and whole and healthy, and if I'd stayed up until 2am every morning, I wouldn't have been. We all know what we NEED to stay healthy. If you can survive on 4 hours of sleep a night because that's worthwhile to you to build a career, then that's great. You're not a better person than I am, you just have different abilities. (And please keep in mind, I'm using a generic *you,* and this is not aimed at anyone in particular. It's just a reference point.)

But you're the only person who can make the decision about what's best for you, and best for your family. Don't ever let anyone tell you that if you only stayed up later, or watched less TV, or just focused more, or whatever glib thing they say that's like a knife in the back, then you'd get the HEA. They're not in your shoes.

I'm not saying this to allow for excuses. You need to take a clear, cold, hard look at yourself and your situation, and just how much you really want this to be a career. If you can stay up later, and watch less TV, and focus more, then do it and don't look back. 

If you can't, then you can't. You can put down this mantle for this season, and pick it up again when your heart has the room for it. It won't be easy. You're shooting yourself in the foot - I can tell you from experience. Everything will have changed by the time you come back. But it can be done.

So. Now that I've probably derailed the conversation a bit, y'all have at it.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Sela Carsen said:


> I'm not saying this to allow for excuses. You need to take a clear, cold, hard look at yourself and your situation, and just how much you really want this to be a career. If you can stay up later, and watch less TV, and focus more, then do it and don't look back.


I'm guessing this comes right down to the heart of it. We all have reasons, excuses, justifications, etc., for whatever we do or don't do. The hard thing, the necessary thing, is to own the choices you've made and then make adjustments if they're choices that are getting in the way of where you want to be.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I think there are legit reasons to say "I don't have the time to write," but most of the people I know who say this sort of thing have plenty of time to post on FB about the latest movie or show pics of their garden or argue about politics.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Sela Carsen said:


> I'm not saying this to allow for excuses. You need to take a clear, cold, hard look at yourself and your situation, and just how much you really want this to be a career. If you can stay up later, and watch less TV, and focus more, then do it and don't look back.


I think it's important to note also that it's not up to anyone else to decide where that line is. Writing/publishing isn't a single, finite thing. There are WAY too many variables involved in the whole process, and what works for person A isn't an option for person B, or person C might follow person D's advice to the letter and not have the same results. This business is too subjective for the anecdotal 'evidence' to be of much help. We cannot make comparisons.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Sela Carsen said:


> I'll throw this on the fire and see what happens.
> 
> I took a 5 year long hiatus from writing and publishing. My mom moved in with us, we moved house, one of my children psychologically cracked up, then the other one had medical issues. I had to homeschool until they got better. Even with all that, it wasn't that I didn't have the TIME to write, it was that I didn't have the head space, or the heart space. And yes, that heart space matters.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of this. And you made a decision, willingly, wholeheartedly, knowing that was what you needed to do at the time. SOMETHING had to be sacrificed, and you made the only choice you could. 
I would've done the same. 
My dad had a cardiac arrest in March and it leveled me flat. He was saved by a stranger in a diner that should've been long gone (his wife was an hour late for lunch, so he was still there). That stranger just happened to be an EMT in a former life and did quality CPR on him for twenty minutes straight (anyone knows CPR knows just how difficult that is). I won't bore you with the details but suffice to say that his survival was miraculous. Less than 1%. And the odds of him coming through without brain damage were even less than that. When he he woke up and spoke, and knew who we were, every doctor at the hospital came in to tell us how amazed they were. 
After two long weeks of sleeping in a cot next to his bed, he was released and we spent two months getting tests done to try and make sure it never happens again. He had a defibrillator (sp?) installed in his chest and is now back at work and doing great.

I am not doing great.

I've spent months with my stomach in knots, feeling a crushing sense of panic every time the phone rings, living in a state of shock and terror at how mercurial life can be and how fragile it all is. My nights are spent tossing and turning, imagining all manner of thing happening to my children, my husband, my father, my mother and so on, because I still can't believe I didn't see it coming. I was driving along on a Friday on my way to deliver the flowers to my oldest son's wedding (yes. This happened on the wedding day.) And my phone rang with news that rocked my whole world.

I'm such a worrier. I worry all the time. HOW had I let my guard down? HOW was I not prepared? Because that's how life is. You're just driving along and it comes and kicks you right in the balls. It sent me into a tailspin that cost me months of writing time, tens of thousands of dollars in sales (which, not surprisingly, taper off each month you don't have a new release to feed the fire). I missed multiple deadlines, under multiple pen names and got gobs of angry emails from readers who were "STILL WAITING!" for the next book in one of three series. I'm only now starting to get control of it, and BELIEVE me, it's a work in progress. I posted to my readers on my FB, responded to their emails, and hope they understand. If not, that's okay with me. I stayed by my dad's side, and supported my mom as best I could and then I allowed myself to break down when I needed to. And it cost me. But I would do it all again, in a heartbeat.

So I'm with you, Sela. I get it. If I wasn't clear, I was addressing the people who DON'T have a major life situation going on. The ones who just don't "have the time", have the ability, but are, in fact, making excuses for themselves. Not because I'm better than them, (I admitted I'm ONE of them when it comes to exercise) but because I think they're hurting themselves by believing that.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're back on the horse and wish you lots of luck gaining back your readership.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

MichaelWallace said:


> I think there are legit reasons to say "I don't have the time to write," but most of the people I know who say this sort of thing have plenty of time to post on FB about the latest movie or show pics of their garden or argue about politics.


cripes on a cracker, I wish I was half this succinct. Yes. This. This is all I mean to say. Thank you, and good night.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Jena H said:


> I think it's important to note also that it's not up to anyone else to decide where that line is.


Hence the "Take a cold, hard look at YOURSELF." rather than, "Hold yourself up and let me decide."

As for the rest of that post, the evidence is anything but anecdotal. There are things that are known to work and there are things that aren't. If you do the things that are, you stand a better chance of succeeding. Outlining them yet again would be beating the deadest of all horses, so I'll refrain.


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## Tricia O&#039; (Feb 19, 2013)

Okay, how about this one - 

Writing is like sending a spaceship to Pluto. You spend a lot of time and research into crafting your spaceship so that it can weather the elements of space, hopefully dodging debris along the way, all while traveling at 36,000 mph. And in nine years or so – you hopefully reach your goal!


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Tricia O' said:


> Writing is like sending a spaceship to Pluto. You spend a lot of time and research into crafting your spaceship so that it can weather the elements of space, hopefully dodging debris along the way, all while traveling at 36,000 mph. And in nine years or so -- you hopefully reach your goal!


Be careful of setting narrow goals. New Horizons blasted off from Earth in January 2006 heading for the plant Pluto. In August 2006 Pluto stopped masquerading as a planet.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

I agree with Annie's original post. There is a clear difference between acting as a writer and acting as a publisher. I like to call it acting, because those two are roles you play--one of being an artist and the other of being an entrepreneur. Which business have you heard of where you need to work few hours a day, rest most of the time and make a living? Which ice cream maker, manager, sales person, accountant, lawyer, doctor do you know who works a bit than rests "to find inspiration"? The business of being self-employed is about tackling a multitude of tasks every day, and juggling private and professional life. 4-hour working week is a cute concept, but in reality it doesn't even work out for Tim Ferris, the guy who invented it.

We all live with too much past, too much future and too little present. It's the illusion the mind creates and the sickness of our society. Everything that happens, happens now and only now. It is only the present moment that is relevant and we are in control of. Whatever you want to achieve has to be done now. Nothing comes from nothing. 

Publishing is no different from any other business, and it's the same for all of us. Some companies aka self-pub authors are more successful in figuring out what works better for them than others. Some writers are better at figuring out how to write great books that sell well. It's all part of the quotidian routine, not an imaginary future.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> I work with a backlist catalog where the print versions have sold over 60 million copies. True fans will buy the books when they stumble across them. But the original audience for these books is aging. Some of the themes that were faddish back when seem a bit old-fashioned and out-of-touch today (perhaps like billionaires, BDSM and were-shifters might be passe in 10 years). Finding "new to you" readers those backlist books resonate with is _hard_. Keeping sales afloat is _hard_. I'm constantly adjusting, readjusting and looking for new sales opportunities and tactics. And this is for NYT-sales-level books. Most of us don't have those kinds of sales now with our frontlist books. As the market becomes more competitive still, how difficult will it be in the future to move backlist?
> 
> Sure, if you have a big enough catalog AND become a big enough name, your catalog will be an income-producer for years to come. But there's no guarantee that level of income will sustain you in retirement. Folk who bank on their writing style, themes and genres still resonating with readers in 10 or 20 years may well be in for that proverbial rude awakening. Not to mention new technology coming along that may well make current-form works obsolete.


You bring up a really important consideration with regard to deciding what we write. Writing to trends is great for immediate, and often large sums of money, but because trends change so rapidly, it requires an ability to shift genres and produce titles, quickly. For those who can do that, it's a great opportunity.

For those who can't or choose not to, for whatever reason, it would probably be better to stick with the tried and true genres. Yes, I know there are trends even within mystery and romance, but The Thornbirds is going to remain relevant longer than I Married my Shape Shifting Teenage Stepbrother.

I feel one of the first things any writer should do is take an honest look at the time they have to dedicate to writing and marketing and choose their genres accordingly.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Ask youself, how will you feel on your death bed? 

Will you have regrets you didn't get more writing/publishing done, or will you have regrets that you didn't spend more time with your loved ones? The answers will be different for everyone. 

I never got into writing for the sake of publishing. I write because it's a compulsion that makes me happy. I've been making up stories since I was five. Every day I have new ideas, and I'll never be able to write them all out.
If I had to do the query stuff to get published, I most likely wouldn't be published. I did it for a while, but it's just not in me to play that game.

I work at publishing because I enjoy hearing from my readers.

I just came off a thirty plus day vacation in which I wrote very little, but I did hang out with my extended family, and that was time I treasure. No one is getting younger. Babies I held in my arms when they were born are now having children of their own. Time does not stand still. Really think about what makes you happy, then pursue those things with passion.  

I know what makes me happy, and I hope you all can figure out what works for you, so you have no regrets on that last day.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Lisa Grace said:


> Ask youself, how will you feel on your death bed?
> 
> Will you have regrets you didn't get more writing/publishing done, or will you have regrets that you didn't spend more time with your loved ones? The answers will be different for everyone.
> 
> ...


Well said, Lisa, and what I've been saying and live by.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

I need to buy a Honda Jet.


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## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

> Sela Carsen- of course you can't keep fiddling. There's a point where one has to recognize that part of changing things up means doing something new. Not all books will sell, no matter how right everything is with branding/covers/whatever. 50 sales in a week is not rocket territory, true, but not bad for a short story either. Get a second book out quickly and I imagine you could build on that with promo of book 1 etc. Hopefully you'll find the money to invest in covers and editing (though it looks like your new story has a nice cover already), because without those it's tough to succeed... Nobody should start a business (and publishing is a business!) without capital, in my mind. It's just setting yourself up for failure. You wouldn't open a restaurant with a cardboard box on the side of road making people eat from their hands and hope that the food is good enough that people will pay so you can afford a real building and tableware at some point, would you?


Ahem...There's a whole book on how people started business (including coffee shops) with 100 bucks start-up money. It's rare, but doable.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Ahem...There's a whole book on how people started business (including coffee shops) with 100 bucks start-up money. It's rare, but doable.


Half of small businesses fail within five years. Half. I bet the number of people failing to make even their expenses back much less rent within five years of publishing are more than half. Now, some of that is because a lot of people think they can write compelling stories people want to read and are just wrong. But even great writers fail on the business side, for a host of preventable reasons.

Guess what gives you a better chance to not crash and burn? Capital. Identifying and responding directly to customer desires. Identifying a profitable business model and going after proven revenue streams. Etc. Here's a good little article summing up why a lot of businesses fail: http://www.businessknowhow.com/startup/business-failure.htm

Publishing is cheap to get into. You could get lucky after slapping up some books with terrible covers and no editing etc and saving yourself money that way. But that isn't being smart about business, and it certainly isn't taking everything that is in your control and maximizing your chances of success. The most likely outcome of not investing in your business is going to be sitting there on the proverbial curb, wondering why nobody is reading your masterpiece while people around you with great covers and great editing who spend money to market their books make 99% of the income. If you are in this business to make money and grow readership (because there's no money without readers, so focusing on them is always a good plan)... why would you want to cut your feet off that way?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Half of small businesses fail within five years. Half. I bet the number of people failing to make even their expenses back much less rent within five years of publishing are more than half. Now, some of that is because a lot of people think they can write compelling stories people want to read and are just wrong. But even great writers fail on the business side, for a host of preventable reasons.
> 
> Guess what gives you a better chance to not crash and burn? Capital. Identifying and responding directly to customer desires. Identifying a profitable business model and going after proven revenue streams. Etc. Here's a good little article summing up why a lot of businesses fail: http://www.businessknowhow.com/startup/business-failure.htm
> 
> Publishing is cheap to get into. You could get lucky after slapping up some books with terrible covers and no editing etc and saving yourself money that way. But that isn't being smart about business, and it certainly isn't taking everything that is in your control and maximizing your chances of success. The most likely outcome of not investing in your business is going to be sitting there on the proverbial curb, wondering why nobody is reading your masterpiece while people around you with great covers and great editing who spend money to market their books make 99% of the income. If you are in this business to make money and grow readership (because there's no money without readers, so focusing on them is always a good plan)... why would you want to cut your feet off that way?


There's nothing wrong with starting out on a shoestring budget and upgrading later as the money comes in. That's what I did with my Star Wanderers series--spent zero dollars publishing the first ones, then later upgraded the covers and everything else. It is entirely possible to succeed that way, because successful businesses are really really careful about how they spend their money. In that area, the marathon analogy rings true.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> There's nothing wrong with starting out on a shoestring budget and upgrading later as the money comes in. That's what I did with my Star Wanderers series--spent zero dollars publishing the first ones, then later upgraded the covers and everything else. It is entirely possible to succeed that way, because successful businesses are really really careful about how they spend their money. In that area, the marathon analogy rings true.


I guess I define success differently than you, since as I said in the first post that I'm talking about making a very good living. But yes, businesses should be careful how they spend their money. However, to me that means spending it on things that have real results, like cover art, editing, advertising etc.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Annie B said:


> I guess I define success differently than you, since as I said in the first post that I'm talking about making a very good living. But yes, businesses should be careful how they spend their money. However, to me that means spending it on things that have real results, like cover art, editing, advertising etc.


Neither you nor JoeV is crass enough to discuss your actual numbers, but I'm going to leave myself free to speculate. 

My semi-informed guess is that he's talking about earning ~10,000 a year, while you are defining success as ~100,000+. In fact, my conservative guess is that you're probably making two or three times that.

One is a nice little supplementary income. The other is an excellent full-time living. I would advise readers of this board to look at their ambitions, their energy, and other considerations, and then follow the advice of those whose careers most closely match that to which they aspire.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Neither you nor JoeV is crass enough to discuss your actual numbers, but I'm going to leave myself free to speculate.
> 
> My semi-informed guess is that he's talking about earning ~10,000 a year, while you are defining success as ~100,000+. In fact, my conservative guess is that you're probably making two or three times that.
> 
> One is a nice little supplementary income. The other is an excellent full-time living. I would advise readers of this board to look at their ambitions, their energy, and other considerations, and then follow the advice of those whose careers most closely matches that to which they aspire.


Numbers aside, both scenarios can be considered a success, and there's also the fact that people who start out following one strategy can and do end up with the same results as the other.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Numbers aside, both scenarios can be considered a success, and there's also the fact that people who start out following one strategy can and do end up with the same results as the other.


Maybe so, but since I aspire to sell like Annie and not at a hobbyist level, I'm going to give more weight to her opinion than to Joe's.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

MichaelWallace said:


> Maybe so, but since I aspire to sell like Annie and not at a hobbyist level, I'm going to give more weight to her opinion than to Joe's.


I have to agree. It's just...logic. I mean, if Annie was a one-off and spouting crazy talk and just happened to be one of those authors who caught lightning in a bottle, I wouldn't. But everything I see and do supports what she's saying. If I'm going to dress for the job I want, I'm going to dress like Annie.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Maybe so, but since I aspire to sell like Annie and not at a hobbyist level, I'm going to give more weight to her opinion than to Joe's.


Again, there are many more variables involved than simple aspirations. But, to each his or her own opinions.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Again, there are many more variables involved than simple aspirations. But, to each his or her own opinions.


Why is it so important to treat all opinions as equally valid? The entire premise of this thread is that you want to make a good living as an indie writer. Go read the original post. Within that context, no, it isn't "to each his or her opinions."

Annie and several other people on this thread have sold literally hundreds of thousands of books. When they say "these things are important if you want success," it makes no sense to give equal weight to the advice of someone who sells at a fraction of that level. If I want success, _as defined by the original post_, then it's obvious who I need to listen to.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Average median income in the US for a family of 4 is about 60k, but that doesn't factor in running a business costs and taxes etc so I think making 90k and up is pretty darn good, as a bar I'd set for myself for example.  Note, this is not actually the bar I set for myself, since I intend to make at the Forbes list of top earning authors some day, but I think anyone pulling in 90k+ a year off fiction writing is doing just fine.  I'm sure plenty of people would be happy making less than that, but given the up and down nature of this business, I'd always aim at least 1/3rd higher than a salary job because you have to set aside money for the rainy days, money to re-invest into the business, and pay taxes, your own health insurance (in the States at least) etc.


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## Michael Parnell (Aug 25, 2014)

You guys are better than a congressional committee at a public hearing.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I started off on a shoestring (and I'm still there). When my first advertising campaign sold one book, I stepped back and accepted my hard knocks. Something was wrong, but I wasn't going to just throw money around until I knew what was wrong. Queue much learning.

I don't write to trends because I have demonstrated the uncanny ability to pick the end of any trend. As a result, I must write to the long-term market, where (hopefully) my books are as interesting to the next decade as they are right now. If I'm lucky, a trend will bump into me, but I can't depend on that. In the meantime, I have the challenge of building a readership on a constrained budget.


As for earnings, I would need to pick up $200k a year to make the switch to full time. I need to replace my current job, account for taxes, plus I need enough extra to make the risk worth it. The cost of living in my area is unkind.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Douglas Milewski said:


> I started off on a shoestring (and I'm still there). When my first advertising campaign sold one book, I stepped back and accepted my hard knocks. Something was wrong, but I wasn't going to just throw money around until I knew what was wrong. Queue much learning. (The answer: some of everything and no easy solutions.) The new series incorporates what I've learned.
> 
> I don't write to trends because I have demonstrated the uncanny ability to pick the end of any trend. As a result, I must write to the long-term market, where (hopefully) my books are as interesting to the next decade as they are right now. If I'm lucky, a trend will bump into me, but I can't depend on that. In the meantime, I have the challenge of building a readership on a constrained budget.


That's a recipe for poor sales, no readership, and long-term frustration, if success in the business side is your goal. Sorry to be harsh, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. What you are doing now is not working. Don't do more of it and hope that someday you'll get different results. This is not the way to succeed


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Why is it so important to treat all opinions as equally valid? The entire premise of this thread is that you want to make a good living as an indie writer. Go read the original post. Within that context, no, it isn't "to each his or her opinions."
> 
> Annie and several other people on this thread have sold literally hundreds of thousands of books. When they say "these things are important if you want success," it makes no sense to give equal weight to the advice of someone who sells at a fraction of that level. If I want success, _as defined by the original post_, then it's obvious who I need to listen to.


I suppose it depends on why they are selling a fraction of what another poster sells. Are they just starting out? Are they writing and marketing part time because they have a full time job? Do they have a different plan?

I appreciate the opinions of those who have been successful, but I also would never discount the opinion of someone who isn't working at that level. Just because they aren't working at that pace and producing at that same level _right now_ doesn't mean they don't have the knowledge and ability to do it. And just because they haven't come out and said what they earn doesn't mean they aren't earning a lot.

Most of us here are pretty intelligent people. Certainly smart enough to recognize nonsense or sound advice when we see it. I read each post, regardless of who posted it, and if seems reasonable to me, great. If it seems like nonsense, I ignore it.

One thing I have learned over the years about forums like this -- you don't always know who you're talking to. Sitting behind that _HeyIsaWriter_ moniker could be Stephen King, who has only made eight posts in the last six years because he's too busy being brilliant.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

vlmain said:


> One thing I have learned over the years about forums like this -- you don't always know who you're talking to. Sitting behind that _HeyIsaWriter_ moniker could be Stephen King, who has only made eight posts in the last six years because he's too busy being brilliant.


It's also tricky when reading posts from writers, _whose job description is to lie for a living_. Not that I think many folks here would BS their way through a discussion, but...it's possible. Bring that big pillar of salt with you to every discussion.


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

vlmain said:


> I suppose it depends on why they are selling a fraction of what another poster sells. Are they just starting out? Are they writing and marketing part time because they have a full time job? Do they have a different plan?
> 
> I appreciate the opinions of those who have been successful, but I also would never discount the opinion of someone who isn't working at that level. Just because they aren't working at that pace and producing at that same level _right now_ doesn't mean they don't have the knowledge and ability to do it. And just because they haven't come out and said what they earn doesn't mean they aren't earning a lot.
> 
> ...


Don't discount their opinions entirely, but discount them to a level commensurate with their actual achievements.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Annie B said:


> That's a recipe for poor sales, no readership, and long-term frustration, if success in the business side is your goal. Sorry to be harsh, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. What you are doing now is not working. Don't do more of it and hope that someday you'll get different results. This is not the way to succeed


I don't want to reread the whole thread, Annie, but did you happen to include a brief description of how you got started somewhere? If not in this thread, then elsewhere? I think it would help to see how someone with your success started out. Like, what was your startup capital, how did you get through the lean times, etc.

I started off with a shoestring, but I imagine one writer's shoestring is longer or shorter than another. And they're all valid approaches to getting going.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> Don't discount their opinions entirely, but discount them to a level commensurate with their actual achievements.


And don't rely just on Amazon rankings to determine what you think their achievements are.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Annie B said:


> That's a recipe for poor sales, no readership, and long-term frustration, if success in the business side is your goal. Sorry to be harsh, but this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. What you are doing now is not working. Don't do more of it and hope that someday you'll get different results. This is not the way to succeed


I am not ignorant of this. I know that I've chosen a more difficult path. But what makes you think that I just keep not learning? Didn't you actually read my last post? I don't think that you did. I think that you need to reread. FYI: My recent advertising has shown *measurably better results*, which demonstrates that I've learned. I've *cut production* time from 12 months to 4. I've *upped quality*. Don't tell me that's a recipe for poor sales, no readership, and long-term frustration. I focused on what my business needed most and I'm glad that I did.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Fill in the Blank Author said:


> Don't discount their opinions entirely, but discount them to a level commensurate with their actual achievements.


This.

As for a couple of the previous posts, estimating sales is as easy as looking at the author's book rankings. If you study the market and your own sales, those numbers can be analyzed pretty handily to within 20%, which would be more than enough information to determine whether someone is making a living or not. And then, for the more industrious types, there's Kindle Spy, which is a software that estimates monthly sales of any author on Amazon. Is it balls on accurate? No. Does it take other vendors into account? No. But it will definitely tell you if someone is...overstating things.

As for authors telling lies for a living and assuming the successful ones are going to spend their inarguably valuable time coming to this board to lie to you and lead you down a bad path (when the advice being dispensed can so obviously be corroborated by thousands of other successful indies or just by looking at said author's book offerings), that seems both preposterous and paranoid. No wonder everyone who makes it stops talking here and giving advice eventually...

Lawd have mercy.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

vlmain said:


> Most of us here are pretty intelligent people. Certainly smart enough to recognize nonsense or sound advice when we see it. I read each post, regardless of who posted it, and if seems reasonable to me, great. If it seems like nonsense, I ignore it.


The problem is, as much as we like to think that, it's not true. People take bad advice all the time. Dumb people. Not-so dumb people. Smart people. People who just WANT TO BELIEVE. It's such a strange thing, human nature. I don't think a person needs to be stupid to be ignorant of publishing. So when they come here and read the opinions of authors who've been at it for five years and still aren't selling right there next to opinions of authors who make millions, they need to weigh what is being said and who is saying it. Especially when the opinion of the lesser selling author is one that supports their own narrative ala "Write the book of your heart" or "Yes! That cover is gorgeous. It totally stands out and is totally different than all the others in that genre, good job!" or "You don't need to spend money on editors. I don't and it works great!"

Bottom line People WANT to be right.

They're instinctively going to glom on to the opinion that allows them to continue doing what they've already determined is the best course of action. And any time someone tells them differently, they're going to balk and make excuses as to why, and cite exceptions when the best thing they could do for themselves is ask questions and be WILLING TO HEAR AND ACCEPT THE ANSWERS. The information everyone needs to succeed in this business is RIGHT AT YOUR FINGERTIPS. Online, on the Amazon top 100 list, here, buried in the mire, on FB in indie boards and loops, it's all around us.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Douglas Milewski said:


> I am not ignorant of this. I know that I've chosen a more difficult path. But what makes you think that I just keep not learning? Didn't you actually read my last post? I don't think that you did. I think that you need to reread. FYI: My recent advertising has shown *measurably better results*, which demonstrates that I've learned. I've *cut production* time from 12 months to 4. I've *upped quality*. Don't tell me that's a recipe for poor sales, no readership, and long-term frustration. I focused on what my business needed most and I'm glad that I did.


Sorry. I made assumptions looking at your books under this name and seeing that the newest book has no reviews, no ranking, etc. Perhaps you have other new stuff that I'm just not seeing? Apologies if so. And again, if you are happy with where you are at, who cares what I say? I posted what I posted here because of this persistent mentality that if you just wait, someday you'll get lucky. It seemed like that was what you were saying. Maybe I misunderstood. Or maybe we just define success completely differently, which is fine, but I defined it for the purposes of this discussion as money and readership, just to be super clear on that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Chrisbwritin said:


> The problem is, as much as we like to think that, it's not true. People take bad advice all the time. Dumb people. Not-so dumb people. Smart people. People who just WANT TO BELIEVE. It's such a strange thing, human nature. I don't think a person needs to be stupid to be ignorant of publishing. So when they come here and read the opinions of authors who've been at it for five years and still aren't selling right there next to opinions of authors who make millions, they need to weigh what is being said and who is saying it. Especially when the opinion of the lesser selling author is one that supports their own narrative ala "Write the book of your heart" or "Yes! That cover is gorgeous. It totally stands out and is totally different than all the others in that genre, good job!" or "You don't need to spend money on editors. I don't and it works great!"
> 
> Bottom line People WANT to be right.
> 
> They're instinctively going to glom on to the opinion that allows them to continue doing what they've already determined is the best course of action. And any time someone tells them differently, they're going to balk and make excuses as to why, and cite exceptions when the best thing they could do for themselves is ask questions and be WILLING TO HEAR AND ACCEPT THE ANSWERS. The information everyone needs to succeed in this business is RIGHT AT YOUR FINGERTIPS. Online, on the Amazon top 100 list, here, buried in the mire, on FB in indie boards and loops, it's all around us.


This is so truth. I took terrible advice, heck... I PAID for terrible advice for years and it nearly killed my career and set me back so far. And I'm pretty smart. But people want to hear what they want to hear. The siren song that failing now means nothing and you can succeed if you just keep on keeping on and fail your way into success is a dangerous tune but also very seductive. Don't fall for it. Take control of your career, take control of your branding and marketing and how you approach the business, and go after success.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

I started off with zero dollars to put into this. Had homemade covers, which looked about like you would think. But it was Select in early 2012, when any book that looked not-awful could make a couple hundred bucks after a free run. So as soon as I finally found myself selling a little bit, I took that money and put it into new covers, more vigorous advertising, etc. Things got much easier after that.

That said, I wouldn't recommend trying to bootstrap your way up unless you have no other choice. It'll only slow you down.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> That said, I wouldn't recommend trying to bootstrap your way up unless you have no other choice. It'll only slow you down.


What would you recommend in place of bootstrapping? I'd love to see more "do this" than "don't do this".


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> What would you recommend in place of bootstrapping? I'd love to see more "do this" than "don't do this".


Put money into it. Sure, it's costs a little, but what [ETA: other] business can you open with a thousand bucks? I'd say, if you know your writing is good, and you don't have the money for a serious launch, go get a night job waiting tables for a few weeks, or whatever it takes, and launch right. Then you can use your profits to finance the next book, and so on until you're up and running.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Also, I'll quibble that I don't lie for a living. Telling stories is making things up, but they aren't lies. I'd even argue that great stories are mostly truth, just about non-real things.

And I never lie about business. I got burned far too hard by people who lied to me in this biz to ever do that to someone else. Ever.   I think if you are giving advice, it's fair to lay out how exactly that advice has worked for you, and to be concrete and honest about your results so that people can make their decisions based on actual information instead of spin or outright lies. 

It might feel like this is just another internet forum, or whatever, and in many ways it is... but it is also a place that real people with real business goals and desires come to figure out things about doing publishing as a serious career choice. Careers might depend on the information shared here. I know mine has been impacted by stuff on Kboards and elsewhere, by advice and information people share.  So I think it's important to be up front about things and not spin stuff to make yourself feel better, because it might make you feel better, but it might give the wrong impression and damage someone else's career if they are making decisions based on flawed, incomplete, or outright wrong information.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

MichaelWallace said:


> Neither you nor JoeV is crass enough to discuss your actual numbers, but I'm going to leave myself free to speculate.
> 
> My semi-informed guess is that he's talking about earning ~10,000 a year, while you are defining success as ~100,000+. In fact, my conservative guess is that you're probably making two or three times that.
> 
> One is a nice little supplementary income. The other is an excellent full-time living. I would advise readers of this board to look at their ambitions, their energy, and other considerations, and then follow the advice of those whose careers most closely match that to which they aspire.


No, I'm talking about starting out, not where I want to end up. I fully intend to build a million dollar IP--several, if I can. But everyone has to start somewhere. There's no shame in starting from the bottom and working your way up.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> What would you recommend in place of bootstrapping? I'd love to see more "do this" than "don't do this".


Put money into it, as Michael said. Can't afford it right now? Save up. You are starting a business, make sure you have some capital. It doesn't have to take a lot, less than 500 will do it in many cases.

I was thousands of dollars in medical debt, facing the hard truth that in a few more months I wouldn't be able to pay rent much less medical bills, and... I still made the decision to take the non-maxed out credit card and put covers and editing for my new series on there. Because I had a plan, I had studied what people who were doing very well had done, and I knew that to have the maximum chance of success I had to stop doing all the things that had led to failure, which included not getting wow-factor covers etc. I was confident my books were good, that they would hit their intended market, and I wasn't willing to hamstring them by skimping on the marketing and presentation of those books.

Best. Decision. I. Ever. Made.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Put money into it. Sure, it's costs a little, but what business can you open with a thousand bucks? I'd say, if you know your writing is good, and you don't have the money for a serious launch, go get a night job waiting tables for a few weeks, or whatever it takes, and launch right. Then you can use your profits to finance the next book, and so on until you're up and running.


Michael, if $1k isn't enough to get started on writing and publishing, what number would you put it at?

I've seen a lot of indies do well with less than that for business costs, covers, editing, etc. Heck, I've got just over $3k in my startup kitty and my expenses so far for my first dozen titles have been well under $1k, even if I add in my monthly subs to Adobe and lynda.com.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim, he meant 1000 or under, I believe. Reread that


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Jim, he meant 1000 or under, I believe. Reread that


I read it as "what business can you open with a grand?" None. As in you need more than that to start a business. Just looking for clarity.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> This is so truth. I took terrible advice, heck... I PAID for terrible advice for years and it nearly killed my career and set me back so far. And I'm pretty smart. But people want to hear what they want to hear. The siren song that failing now means nothing and you can succeed if you just keep on keeping on and fail your way into success is a dangerous tune but also very seductive. Don't fall for it. Take control of your career, take control of your branding and marketing and how you approach the business, and go after success.


And now you're giving horrible advice just as authoritatively as the people whose advice you paid for. Don't get me wrong, there's some good ideas in there too, but the same can be said of KKR and DWS, of whom you are referring. You're honestly not that much different from them.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> No, I'm talking about starting out, not where I want to end up. I fully intend to build a million dollar IP--several, if I can. But everyone has to start somewhere. There's no shame in starting from the bottom and working your way up.


Everybody does, but you put yourself at a real disadvantage if you don't treat it like a business from the get go.

Also, I think you should put away the million dollar IP thing. Who can even think like that? We're more like a small restaurant that leases its space than anything with independent value. The restaurant could be making a killing, but the value is in the chef and the management, not the name. Very, very few writers could survive if they stopped writing. Their sales would dry right up.

The thing that you _can_ shoot for is an income stream that you can refresh every time you put out a new book, do some effective advertising, etc.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I started off with zero dollars to put into this. Had homemade covers, which looked about like you would think. But it was Select in early 2012, when any book that looked not-awful could make a couple hundred bucks after a free run. So as soon as I finally found myself selling a little bit, I took that money and put it into new covers, more vigorous advertising, etc. Things got much easier after that.
> 
> That said, I wouldn't recommend trying to bootstrap your way up unless you have no other choice. It'll only slow you down.


Yes, exactly. When my books started making money, I invested it into covers, marketing, and a new series with some of the same characters. Start where you are, then move your way up.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Ah, I interpret it as "what other business can you start for so cheap" 

I'd say though that 1k would be a good baseline. Enough to get good covers, get editing, and some left over for formatting help if you need it and a little promo money.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> And now you're giving horrible advice just as authoritatively as the people whose advice you paid for. Don't get me wrong, there's some good ideas in there too, but the same can be said of KKR and DWS, of whom you are referring. You're honestly not that much different from them.


What's the part that's horrible?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Publishing is cheap to get into. You could get lucky after slapping up some books with terrible covers and no editing etc and saving yourself money that way. But that isn't being smart about business, and it certainly isn't taking everything that is in your control and maximizing your chances of success. The most likely outcome of not investing in your business is going to be sitting there on the proverbial curb, wondering why nobody is reading your masterpiece while people around you with great covers and great editing who spend money to market their books make 99% of the income. If you are in this business to make money and grow readership (because there's no money without readers, so focusing on them is always a good plan)... why would you want to cut your feet off that way?


It's probably important to distinguish serious advice-giving from the welcoming gestures, friendliness, and supportiveness.

Annie's advice, as she's said, is premised on the assumption that you're already producing great books, but many (most?) people aren't producing great stuff when they first show up here. I wasn't and still am not -- I can tell by my level of sell-through. I'm writing good books, I think, but they're not great. Get much further down the spectrum from "good," and it probably is not worth spending money on the existing product. I hate to see people being advised to sink thousands into editing and covers when there's no evidence whatsoever that their books are strong enough to earn that money back.

When new writers show up on the boards, and it's clear from their books that their craft is not where it needs to be to sell a lot of copies, what is one supposed to say? We're not allowed to offer unsolicited critiques of people's books (a sensible rule). In such a situation, "Hey, just focus on writing the next book" and "It's a marathon, not a sprint," are the sorts of thing you _can _say. I suspect that's the spirit in which those utterances are often offered: as a supportive and permissible stand-in for "It's early days; keep honing your craft," rather than as serious, focused, carefully thought through advice. Yeah, for writers who do have the craft in place and are failing due to poor strategy/lack of investment, suggestions like these might be damaging, but for others -- perhaps the majority -- they seem like reasonable responses.

I mean, for some people, it sort of _is _a marathon, isn't it? You have to write and write and write and write, receiving good critiques all the while, until you develop the level of craft that makes you capable of producing the kind of great book Annie's talking about, and once you finish _that _marathon ... then you need to change your mindset and no longer think in a marathony way. Or something like that.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Sorry. I made assumptions looking at your books under this name and seeing that the newest book has no reviews, no ranking, etc. Perhaps you have other new stuff that I'm just not seeing? Apologies if so. And again, if you are happy with where you are at, who cares what I say? I posted what I posted here because of this persistent mentality that if you just wait, someday you'll get lucky. It seemed like that was what you were saying. Maybe I misunderstood. Or maybe we just define success completely differently, which is fine, but I defined it for the purposes of this discussion as money and readership, just to be super clear on that.


There's no issue with you looking at my books and seeing no ranking. I was straight about doing poorly in money and readership, but I don't lay that at anyone's feet but my own. My first boat sank, so I went out and built a new boat. In the meantime, I have a finite amount of capital and I must choose very carefully how to spend it. Cash constraints do matter in business. I won't get my seed money twice.


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## Sela Carsen (Jun 28, 2014)

I started with $500. I funnel any writing income back into that fund - from royalties from old titles, to the money I make running a writer's group at my local library. It's not much, but I'm trying to invest wisely in good covers, good editing, and only paying for marketing/promo when I absolutely have to.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Also, I think you should put away the million dollar IP thing. Who can even think like that? We're more like a small restaurant that leases its space than anything with independent value. The restaurant could be making a killing, but the value is in the chef and the management, not the name. Very, very few writers could survive if they stopped writing. Their sales would dry right up.


I think there's room for both, really. When I wrote my business plan, I threw in a bunch of notional ideas for a couple of my series to expand out into larger-scale IPs. I don't have a million dollar bar to set, but I can definitely see where I could expand the offerings of the IP beyond just prose. I don't think it hurts to have big goals, you just have to be realistic about them and intentionally work and build toward those goals.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> And now you're giving horrible advice just as authoritatively as the people whose advice you paid for. Don't get me wrong, there's some good ideas in there too, but the same can be said of KKR and DWS, of whom you are referring. You're honestly not that much different from them.


Really dude? Really?

The differences, if you are too dense to see them yourself:

1) I charge nobody for my advice
2) I offer up concrete results and ideas backed up by other successful people besides just myself
3) I don't lie

Those are really the important differences, but hey... whatever you want to believe.  I realize your feelings are probably hurt by what Michael, Chris, and I are saying... but seriously... don't take it out on me. Look at maybe why you feel the way you do.

Also... KKR/DWS aren't the only ones who offer up terrible advice and make people pay for it. There are a few others who claim success without the proof to back it up, they just happen to be the loudest and most notorious of the bunch.

If you think taking control of your choices, investing in your business, paying attention to the marketing and presentation of your books, being flexible and willing to try new things and pivot as the business changes... and the like is bad advice, I guess I can see why you are at where you are at. Sorry... I clearly have nothing to offer you so I'm not sure why you are even bothering with this thread?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> I think there's room for both, really. When I wrote my business plan, I threw in a bunch of notional ideas for a couple of my series to expand out into larger-scale IPs. I don't have a million dollar bar to set, but I can definitely see where I could expand the offerings of the IP beyond just prose. I don't think it hurts to have big goals, you just have to be realistic about them and intentionally work and build toward those goals.


I'd love to have it happen, but I need to be realistic. If I were to stop writing and publishing today, my income be in the three figures in about a year. My work has zero IP value except what it generates by my continual effort in releasing new books. To get a million dollar IP, I'd first need a series that had already generated seven figures of income, thus attracting Hollywood sorts.

It's pure fantasy for all but a handful of indie writers, if even that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'd love to have it happen, but I need to be realistic. If I were to stop writing and publishing today, my income be in the three figures in about a year. My work pretty has zero IP value except what it generates by my continual effort in releasing new books. To get a million dollar IP, I'd first need a series that had already generated seven figures of income, thus attracting Hollywood sorts.
> 
> It's pure fantasy for all but a handful of indie writers, if even that.


Maybe  But I, too, dream that big. I got plans to get there, but it's going to take a ton of work and probably the actual level achieved is out of my hands. But even if I just make eight figures on the way to building a million dollar IP that can go on without me dumping thousands of hours of work into it... I'll be okay. I see nothing wrong with shooting the moon as long as you keep your eyes on the ground in front of you at the same time.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm going to agree with Becca to the extent that a lot of beginners won't see a payoff because the writing is not yet strong enough. In that case, they're probably not ready to publish in the first place. Better to learn in solitude before you put up something that's going to weaken you down the road. I generally add the caveat that if the book itself is strong enough then don't blow it by putting it in shoddy packaging (editing, covers, marketing).


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Really dude? Really?
> 
> The differences, if you are too dense to see them yourself:
> 
> ...


1) You both set yourselves up as authorities in your field.
2) You both have a "one true way" approach to the advice that you give.
3) You both attack people who disagree with you.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

It's not a marathon. It's a business. Whether you're trad or indie - it's a business. I'm part of my regional writers organization, and a great number of the members are trad published. They are discussing the same sort of things the indies do - how to increase visibility, readers, and sales. So while people may get into writing for just the art - no matter where you go, it's still a business. I see some struggling with that idea, or drawing away when I move into topics of the biz vs the writing. Unfortunately, it's not just the writing. I wish it was. Sort of. I really enjoy the business side of things, much more than I thought. Even though it's the scarier side of things. 

Having been self-employed, you cannot treat your business as a marathon, hoping that if you keep doing A, you'll meet with success. If A is not working, you and your capital must find B, C, or maybe even D. Because capital in business is finite. So you have to invest wisely. Will you invest unwisely? Sure, we all make mistakes. The key is to realize, OK, this wasn't the best direction, and find another path. 

Not keep doing the same things, hoping for a change, and watching your capital slip down the drain.  That's not a wise move, for you as a business owner. It's just not, any other arguments aside. If you do, your capital - and I'm not just referring to money, but your time, heart, energy, support - will be gone.

I understand that life gets in the way of business at times, particularly when you are a SP - which most of us start out as. You do it all, and if you fall down, the business takes a fall. I've found that this summer with the kids out of school and family here for a month - the writing I got done was almost nil. I'm seeing a reaction to that in my sales. Which sucks. BUT - I had a great time with family and kids, and I'm still on schedule with my bigger projects for the year, so I am working a bit harder now.

I think you always have to be learning, and as Annie mentioned multiple times, looking at those who are where you'd like to be, and seeing what they have done, both mistakes and successes. One of the things I love about KB is that so many people are willing to share both. It's an astounding resource. And a fair number are successes by MY definition - it's going to be different for all of us - so I find that what they say is worth reading and researching. 

This is a great post, both the OP and the discussions that have followed. It's kicked my behind right out of my "The AC is broken-I've been out of my schedule for so long - I'd rather look at FB" mode with a vengeance.


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

MichaelWallace said:


> Put money into it. Sure, it's costs a little, but what [ETA: other] business can you open with a thousand bucks? I'd say, if you know your writing is good, and you don't have the money for a serious launch, go get a night job waiting tables for a few weeks, or whatever it takes, and launch right. Then you can use your profits to finance the next book, and so on until you're up and running.


So if someone had $100 a month spare and could produce a novel/la every 2 months it would be best to A) publish no.1 after 10 months with $1000 and 4 books in hand rather than B) publish every couple of months with a smaller kitty?

It seems that A) would be best from what is being said here, but then if the book didn't sell äs well as thought you're back to square one and 10 months have passed.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Where have I said "there is only one way?" Where? I have said multiple times *in this very thread* that there are many paths to success. I was just pointing out also that there are paths to failure and trying to give advice IN MY EXPERIENCE AND OPINION (in case that's not clear enough) of how to maybe avoid failing as much and find more success.  

Where have I said "I'm an authority?" Where? I am offering up my own experience and advice. There's a difference. I constantly caveat what I say with "in my experience" and "in my opinion"... or have you missed that?

Who is attacking anyone? I argue with people who, in my OPINION, are giving poor advice or not being upfront about their results, or who are clearly missing the point of what I'm saying.  If you feel attacked...perhaps you need to examine why that is? If my advice doesn't work for you, don't follow it. It's pretty simple.

Seriously, if what I'm saying doesn't work for you, keep on keeping on. Do your thing. Have fun. What's so hard about that?

I'm sharing my opinions and experiences because I appreciate it when other people do also, and I think sometimes people don't say things that need to be said. So I'm saying the things I wish someone would have told me years ago. If that's a problem for you, get over it and go read other threads. Easy, right?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'm going to agree with Becca to the extent that a lot of beginners won't see a payoff because the writing is not yet strong enough. In that case, they're probably not ready to publish in the first place. Better to learn in solitude before you put up something that's going to weaken you down the road. I generally add the caveat that if the book itself is strong enough then don't blow it by putting it in shoddy packaging (editing, covers, marketing).


I totally agree with this. I think it's better to wait until you have strong craft before you leap into the business side. A great book is the foundation of any business side of this. I wrote for years without letting anyone read my stuff, because I knew it wasn't good and I had so much to learn. Then I spent years more before I published getting feedback, taking workshops, and learning the craft. I still take lots of workshops, read craft books, and constantly work on my craft. It's the foundation that a good publishing business is built on.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Lunachick said:


> So if someone had $100 a month spare and could produce a novel/la every 2 months it would be best to A) publish no.1 after 10 months with $1000 and 4 books in hand rather than B) publish every couple of months with a smaller kitty?
> 
> It seems that A) would be best from what is being said here, but then if the book didn't sell as well as thought you're back to square one and 10 months have passed.


But you'd have four books in hand, right? Maybe by the time you finish #4, you realize #1 kind of sucks. If you still think it's great (and you're not deluding yourself, as we sometimes do), then you're still not in that much of a different place than you were to begin with. If you can't sell with good covers and editing, it's not like you'd be out a lot of sales from what you'd have done with the crappy covers and the poor editing.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

MichaelWallace said:


> What's the part that's horrible?


Lots of people on this thread have said that the marathon analogy has helped them to pace themselves and stay both consistent and persistent. To advise people to throw out a metaphor entirely instead of examining it carefully and applying it in useful ways is both arrogant and shortsighted, yet this is the entire premise on which this thread is based.



MichaelWallace said:


> Also, I think you should put away the million dollar IP thing. Who can even think like that?


So a page ago, I wasn't being ambitious enough, but now I'm being too ambitious? Here's an idea: how about you stop putting your nose in my business? Both on this thread and in the past, you have had a tendency to think that you know my situation, my business, my career and lifetime goals, and my current level of success better than I do. I am sick and tired of that bullshit, and I will not engage with it any longer. On the ignore list you go.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> I'm gonna disagree with you on this one, Sistah. The feedback from and editor is one of the most valuable things an author whose stuff isn't all that good yet can get (as long as it's a good editor). It will help the author improve his writing so that he CAn write good books down the line. I think the money's well worth the investment. Not necessarily for the cover, though. I agree with you on that.


I don't want to downplay the value of a good editor. But the kind of craft weakness I'm talking about isn't the sort of thing line/copy-editing can fix. I firmly believe there are great storytellers out there who need significant editorial help on the sentence level and always will, and there's nothing wrong with being one of those writers. But the big pieces of very strong storytelling need to be there. I suppose a developmental editor could help you get them in place, but the cost for that sort of work is huge. I think people starting out are better off getting beta-reads and joining critique groups.



MichaelWallace said:


> I'm going to agree with Becca to the extent that a lot of beginners won't see a payoff because the writing is not yet strong enough. In that case, they're probably not ready to publish in the first place. Better to learn in solitude before you put up something that's going to weaken you down the road. I generally add the caveat that if the book itself is strong enough then don't blow it by putting it in shoddy packaging (editing, covers, marketing).


I agree in principle with the don't-publish-'til-you-know-you're-good idea, but a lot of people do dive right in <ahem ... me ... ahem>. They're part of the indie community too, and advisers should keep in mind that they're out there and, in fact, may be in the majority. I really do think the advice to make a big capital investment in publishing should be prefaced with some cautionary language. _Are you sure readers will think your books are good? What makes you so sure?_


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I'm just waiting for someone to say what they really wanna say. "I write better than you."


The weird thing is that I'm less confident in my writing now than when I was unpublished. I had no evidence that I was _not_ brilliant, and I secretly wanted to believe my genius would be discovered some day. Now, I think I'm pretty good, and quite consistent at bringing my best work to the table. Brilliant, no.

That's one reason why the million dollar IP thing doesn't resonate with me. I know for a fact that I can't maintain success by word of mouth, that my reviews are solid, but not stellar, and that plenty of people simply don't get into my work. It's hard to imagine writing something that takes on a life of its own.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, though, I'm an "all of the above" kind of guy. But, yes, betas and critique groups are a good and free start.


I don't always agree with my betas/crit group. However, if more than three are telling me the same thing...even if I don't agree, I need to look at it.

Because you don't get a chance to explain yourself to the readers.

That was an...unfortunate lesson learned the hard way.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I don't want to downplay the value of a good editor. But the kind of craft weakness I'm talking about isn't the sort of thing line/copy-editing can fix. I firmly believe there are great storytellers out there who need significant editorial help on the sentence level and always will, and there's nothing wrong with being one of those writers. But the big pieces of very strong storytelling need to be there. I suppose a developmental editor could help you get them in place, but the cost for that sort of work is huge. I think people starting out are better off getting beta-reads and joining critique groups.
> 
> I agree in principle with the don't-publish-'til-you-know-you're-good idea, but a lot of people do dive right in <ahem ... me ... ahem>. They're part of the indie community too, and advisers should keep in mind that they're out there and, in fact, may be in the majority. I really do think the advice to make a big capital investment in publishing should be prefaced with some cautionary language. _Are you sure readers will think your books are good? What makes you so sure?_


Well, and again... the ideas I'm sharing in this thread are aimed at certain kinds of goals within this business. I think there are lots of valid reasons to both write AND to publish books that are not making a living/good income/etc with your business. There are many kinds of books and not all are commercially viable. I write lit fic too sometimes, but I keep my expectations about publishing it in line with the market and my own observations. I still write it and publish it 

So again... talking about the commercial side of things and commercial business focused angles. I think there are plenty of other reasons to do things in this business, but I'm not speaking to those things in this thread. Hope that clarifies


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

MichaelWallace said:


> But you'd have four books in hand, right? Maybe by the time you finish #4, you realize #1 kind of sucks. If you still think it's great (and you're not deluding yourself, as we sometimes do), then you're still not in that much of a different place than you were to begin with. If you can't sell with good covers and editing, it's not like you'd be out a lot of sales from what you'd have done with the crappy covers and the poor editing.


I suppose what I was thinking is that it would be impact vs flexibility, especially if it was a series which is something I've seen advised a lot too. Maybe I should revise my plan of kicking off with a series just in case &#128540;


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> 1) You both set yourselves up as authorities in your field.
> 2) You both have a "one true way" approach to the advice that you give.
> 3) You both attack people who disagree with you.


I don't think we've been reading the same posts.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> I'm just waiting for someone to say what they really wanna say. "I write better than you."


That's sooo pre-2011. Nowadays, writers just say "I make more $$$ than you." Same difference.


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Yes, exactly. When my books started making money, I invested it into covers, marketing, and a new series with some of the same characters. Start where you are, then move your way up.


But that's not the marathon, keep your head down and write as you plod on toward the imaginary finish line. What you're describing is doing the best you can and always looking for opportunities to do it better. Always looks for opportunities to market, improve your product, invest a little, invest more as you're able. Your head is on a swivel, looking around for what you can do right now to invest in both your present and your future.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> So a page ago, I wasn't being ambitious enough, but now I'm being too ambitious? Here's an idea: how about you stop putting your nose in my business? Both on this thread and in the past, you have had a tendency to think that you know my situation, my business, my career and lifetime goals, and my current level of success better than I do. I am sick and tired of that [bullcrap], and I will not engage with it any longer. On the ignore list you go.


I know you won't see this, Joe, but the thing that bothers me about your posts on marketing and presentation is that you come in with very definite opinions that go against what the people who are selling lots of books say. I want to listen to what people like Annie or Phoenix Sullivan say, and it feels to me like you're muddying the waters for no reason. Stuff like this:



> Remember that you can always upgrade your covers/blurbs/formatting later.


That does not work. I've tried it several times and failed. Every single time, without exception, that I've had good sales with a book it has been when I launched it properly. Maybe some people have done it, but I'd like to see at what level. For me, as someone who is interested in selling hundreds of thousands of books, not hundreds of books, "upgrading" simply doesn't work. I go in strong or I fail.

So Annie comes on here, making six figures. I don't want everyone to agree; it's the vigorous discussion that helps. But what I don't want is someone coming in with advice out of left field, and there's no indication that it could possibly work. We can tell by how it hasn't worked for you that you're not even giving good advice for yourself.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Becca Mills said:


> I suppose a developmental editor could help you get them in place, but the cost for that sort of work is huge.


The cost of on-going developmental editing is such that only the already successful who probably do not need it could justify the expense (this is a business thread and the first duty of a business is to manage financial risk in order to avoid going out of business). OTOH you can probably get the help that you are talking about by paying for a one-off manuscript critique at the point at which your first draft is completed. I read a lot of indie work and I have stopped counting typos because the biggest problem is poor story structure, pacing, dialogue, etc. In other words, exactly the same editing deficiencies as in the books put out by the major presses.

If you break down what you buy from a content editor it becomes much more affordable, because you are only paying for what you need. Full-on developmental editing is an invention of the English-speaking publishing industry in the mid-20th century. Even in the major presses it is nowadays usually restricted to remedial help (i.e., it is not on-going). But negotiate carefully. I heard of an author who paid £650 for developmental editing. The editor read the text said it needed completely rewriting, but that they could do nothing further for the author, except keep the £650.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> 1) You both set yourselves up as authorities in your field.
> 2) You both have a "one true way" approach to the advice that you give.
> 3) You both attack people who disagree with you.


The difference between Annie's approach and KKR and DWS is that she has shown that she can make six figures per year. The rankings on her Twenty-Sided Sorceress books are proof enough that her approach works. It's a much better approach then putting up jillions of titles and hope that some of them go viral all on their own. Sorry you can't see that Annie's approach not only has a much better chance of succeeding then KKR and DWS, but also is a lot less work.

I don't know about anybody else, but I can only write so many books before I get burned out and need a break. Like now. I don't want to rely on having to write hundreds of books to make a living, therefore I'll listen to Annie, who will tell you how to make a living on fewer books. I agree with everything that she said.

Also, she never said there's one true way. She simply said that it's folly to put your books out there without promotion and keep on writing and hoping that some mystical force will kick in and voila! You suddenly are a bestseller. This does happen for some - Hugh Howey comes to mind - but it's folly to think that this kind of thing is going to happen for most of us. Especially when there are so many other books competing for the reader's hard-earned dollar, and the market is being flooded more and more every day.

Take her advice, or don't. But seriously, do not insult her just because she doesn't happen to agree with you.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Well, and again... the ideas I'm sharing in this thread are aimed at certain kinds of goals within this business. I think there are lots of valid reasons to both write AND to publish books that are not making a living/good income/etc with your business. There are many kinds of books and not all are commercially viable. I write lit fic too sometimes, but I keep my expectations about publishing it in line with the market and my own observations. I still write it and publish it
> 
> So again... talking about the commercial side of things and commercial business focused angles. I think there are plenty of other reasons to do things in this business, but I'm not speaking to those things in this thread. Hope that clarifies


Yeah, I was talking about that same group of folks: people who want to be commercially successful writers. Unfortunately, wanting to be a commercial success doesn't mean you have the craft in place to make it happen. Unless they can afford to take a hit, writers should get some evidence that they're ready for the big time before sinking a lot of money into publishing. That evidence could take any number of forms, but it should be objective and fairly copious.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Yeah, I was talking about that same group of folks: people who want to be commercially successful writers. Unfortunately, wanting to be a commercial success doesn't mean you have the craft in place to make it happen. Unless they can afford to take a hit, writers should get some evidence that they're ready for the big time before sinking a lot of money into publishing. That evidence could take any number of forms, but it should be objective and fairly copious.


That's tough to know. Sometimes, you've got to take a risk. Only you can tell by looking at your finances if that money is something you can afford. Again, looking at the business side, this is a relatively cheap gig to get into. You certainly can't open a catering company or a florist shop with a thousand bucks. But with a thousand dollars you can buy a decent cover and some good editing. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but I figure you either believe in your writing, or you don't.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Yeah, I was talking about that same group of folks: people who want to be commercially successful writers. Unfortunately, wanting to be a commercial success doesn't mean you have the craft in place to make it happen. Unless they can afford to take a hit, writers should get some evidence that they're ready for the big time before sinking a lot of money into publishing. That evidence could take any number of forms, but it should be objective and fairly copious.


Yeah. Totally agree. I wasn't talking about craft in this thread, but I do agree with this. I think a lot of people hurt their chances by publishing too soon. A good book that readers actually want to read is the foundation. For sure.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Yeah. Totally agree. I wasn't talking about craft in this thread, but I do agree with this. I think a lot of people hurt their chances by publishing too soon. A good book that readers actually want to read is the foundation. For sure.


I think the difficulty of giving advice to someone you think doesn't have that foundation in place may generate some of the "just keep writing"/"it's a marathon" stuff.

I'd like to think so, anyway, since your larger point (don't just keep doing something if it isn't working) seems so obviously sensible to me.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> It's a much better approach then putting up jillions of titles and hope that some of them go viral all on their own.


It's kinda off thread, but I don't think that's an accurate description of their approach. I don't see them writing stories and publishing with the hope of them going viral. They're writing stories and publishing them and looking to get a reasonable ROI on each one. Don't need to go viral to do that. DWS has mentioned frequently that you don't know which stories are gonna do well and which ones will sell nothing; write and publish and let it go and move on to the next one.

I believe there's validity in that approach as well as in the approach to writing with a plan in mind, such as specific markets with branded covers and targeted advertising and so forth. A smart prolific writer should be able to do both (plus whatever other myriad permutations are out there to write and publish and find success).


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Making the minimum amount of money on the maximum amount of titles is, in my experience, an intensely frustrating and utterly unsustainable business model.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

MichaelWallace said:


> I want to listen to what people like Annie or Phoenix Sullivan say, and it feels to me like you're muddying the waters for no reason.


Are you saying that you want me to leave the boards altogether, because we disagree? That you'd rather turn this place into more of an echo chamber than it already is? Honestly, if you feel that I'm "muddying the waters," use the ignore list to filter out the posts you don't want to read.



> That does not work. I've tried it several times and failed.


I tried it and it worked.



> We can tell by how it hasn't worked for you that you're not even giving good advice for yourself.


The hell, dude? Where do you come off with this kind of crap? It's like in your mind, everyone is either making bank or they are abject, total failures and should leave KBoards with their tails between their legs. Is your brain seriously that binary? Is there seriously no middle ground for you?

For your information, my horrible advice made the difference between losing money on my writing career and turning it around into a profitable business. It also allowed me to go full-time for the majority of 2014, until KU 1.0 shook up the market and forced me (and many others, I might add) to retool.

Your hubris is mind-boggling. You think you can know everything you need to know about another writer by looking at their Amazon rankings. All that those rankings show you, though, is how well the books are doing in one place and one time. And with the way KU 2.0 is screwing with the way reads are counted, it doesn't even tell you that anymore.

How about this metric for judging the validity of advice here on KBoards: by how often the person giving the advice brings up the Amazon rankings of other members? The rankings are far too narrow to give the whole picture of someone's career.

But tying things back to the OP, it is entirely possible to build up to success incrementally. Building a foundation does not bring the sort of instant gratification by which you judge other people's success. I fully expect to build several million dollar IPs over the course of my career, and I'm doing what I can to get there.

Which reminds me, I should be working on my WIP now instead of wasting words on this forum.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Serena is one of my heroes.
> 
> It annoys me, too, a bit, but if people need to tell themselves that other people are just luckier than they are to feel better, I guess there's no harm in it (well, to the person they are talking about, there is potential harm to the person feeling that way since it might stop them from taking an active roll in their own destiny). I'll keep on working my butt off to be more "lucky" anyway and they can tell themselves whatever. Patty and I did start in somewhat the same place, but she's done things her way and I've done them mine. Our careers don't look very similar once you start looking at the details. We both have success in this business. I would hope at least that her post wasn't to imply I just got lucky, so I chose to read it otherwise.
> 
> There are many paths. That's the beauty of this biz but also its curse. We self-publishing writers have tons of control over many factors, and so a lot of both the successes and the failures rest on us.


For the most part, I think you're right. But there are always elements we can't control, which can work for or against us. Some people call that "luck." Someone posted a picture of Serena Williams. If we use sports as an example, I have 2 friends who are Olympic athletes. Factors such as injury, poor officiating, and which match-ups they drew resulted in a medal for one and no medal for the other.

Of course the level of competition in their particular categories or niches can have a big effect too. In many cases, people who are known not to work as hard as other athletes at the highest level end up with better results than the harder workers, even when talent is equal.

Life isn't fair.

But of course almost everyone at the top does work hard. It just doesn't mean they worked the hardest. And hard work is something we can control, so we should focus on that.

You (general you) can dismiss the hard work, the smart work of talented people who don't come out on top by saying there is no luck, just as much as you can dismiss the efforts of someone who does achieve great success by calling it luck.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> It's hard to trust any sort of evidence you're gonna get, free or not. I'll bring up critique circle, because I have that thread on the other board. There are VERY raw authors on there who will tell someone that their writing is good. And, compared to theirs, it is good, because theirs sucks even worse. On the other hand, you've got the critique group studs who beat their own chests and get off on belittling other authors, because their work sucks and they want to tear everyone down because they're so p*ssed. You say the opinion should be objective, but that's almost impossible to find. And objective opinion that is reliable. You're not gonna find it on beta sites. critique sites. Friends aren't objective. Man, sometimes you just have to suck it up and say that you're gonna do this. Step into the fray,. and if you're out $500 or something because you got an edit on something that wasn't ready, you've learned a hard lesson. But you did learn the lesson. It's hard, man. It's hard to take that step. No matter what ANYBODY tells you, you never really know whether your stuff is any good until you hit publish.


Yeah, I think that's right. And what Michael said above, too, about never being able to know for sure and being willing to take a risk. That (and hubris) is why I published without being at all sure of what I had. Reader reviews, people voting with their wallets -- that's the best and most objective evidence you can get. It was easier back then, of course. There was so much less competition. Maybe nowadays you really do need to sink a good bit of money into a book to give it any chance of being read. But man, every time I see $1,000 of window dressing on book that is just not going to go anywhere, my heart breaks a little. For a lot of people out there, a few hundred bucks is a huge sum of money.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, I get that. But if the thing flops AFTER you've put $1000 into it, then at least you know it's not the cover and editing holding you back, right? How many people on this board pump out book after book with low production costs, secretly wondering every day how well their books would sell if only they spent some money on the cover and editing? Too timid to step out and spend the money to find out.


That is a very good point.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey, folks, I'm getting reports for this thread and I'm at the grocery store. And can't read through. Be kind to each other, OK?

Betsy


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

What it the pro way to launch done once the book/cover art/etc. is ready to go?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Are you saying that you want me to leave the boards altogether, because we disagree? That you'd rather turn this place into more of an echo chamber than it already is? Honestly, if you feel that I'm "muddying the waters," use the ignore list to filter out the posts you don't want to read.


I thought you were going to hit ignore. Feel free at any time. But no, I don't want you to leave, I want you to be sensible about some things where it feels like you've got a blind spot. I know you can; you were a follower of the DWS/KKR method at one time and we fought about that, too. You eventually moved on.



> I tried it and it worked.


Great, care to share numbers? I have two books that I launched with weak covers that I later replaced. They have sold a total of X and ~2X copies respectively. Five other books of mine that got a proper launch with good covers and attention to detail at the beginning have between 8.5X and 45X sales. Maybe the first two books just suck and that's why the rebranding didn't work.



> The hell, dude? Where do you come off with this kind of crap? It's like in your mind, everyone is either making bank or they are abject, total failures and should leave KBoards with their tails between their legs. Is your brain seriously that binary? Is there seriously no middle ground for you?


Not at all. But I think it's important to note that not all advice on this board is equal. If you're looking for strictly marketing advice, and several big sellers are saying one thing, those of us who want to sell at higher levels would be better off listening to their advice. You're contradicting that advice. You insist that your path is valid. Fine, what are your sales so I can compare numbers?


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

I go back to what I said several pages ago on this thread, regarding the OP, but I think it still fits in this tangential discussion.

Those who endlessly preach "It's a marathon, not a sprint" have usually sprinted to wild success themselves. This proselytizing has a sort of numbing effect on the masses, keeping them doggedly pushing onward while not really seeking out the _real_ reasons for the preachers' quick, improbable success.

When I posted this a few pages back, one reply suggested these "overnight successes" were years in the making. Perhaps, if you count "years" as being time spent in other pursuits involving writing or publishing, or time spent in "getting one's head together" or whatever. But we've all seen the posts from writers who have sold thousands of copies of their debut novel within a few brief months, jumpstarting their career and opening the gates to a flood of cash. At this point, Amazon usually picks up the ball and begins heavily promoting them, shooting their sales into orbit. Very often, they'll say they did "no marketing &#8230; oh, maybe a mention on Facebook" and their only explanation for their initial burst of sales is a shrug, accompanied by "Just lucky, I guess."


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> I go back to what I said several pages ago on this thread, regarding the OP, but I think it still fits in this tangential discussion.
> 
> Those who endlessly preach "It's a marathon, not a sprint" have usually sprinted to wild success themselves. This proselytizing has a sort of numbing effect on the masses, keeping them doggedly pushing onward while not really seeking out the _real_ reasons for the preachers' quick, improbable success.
> 
> When I posted this a few pages back, one reply suggested these "overnight successes" were years in the making. Perhaps, if you count "years" as being time spent in other pursuits involving writing or publishing, or time spent in "getting one's head together" or whatever. But we've all seen the posts from writers who have sold thousands of copies of their debut novel within a few brief months, jumpstarting their career and opening the gates to a flood of cash. At this point, Amazon usually picks up the ball and begins heavily promoting them, shooting their sales into orbit. Very often, they'll say they did "no marketing ... oh, maybe a mention on Facebook" and their only explanation for their initial burst of sales is a shrug, accompanied by "Just lucky, I guess."


I can only speak for myself, but I submitted my first story to a magazine in 1988, when I was in high school. I attended Clarion in '93, sold a story to F&SF in 1995, and had several near misses with books. I wrote six novels, 104 short stories, had two agents, and collected well over 1,000 rejection letters before I self-published in early 2011. I had good success in my first few months. But yeah, I worked. And failed. And failed again. Tried to give up several times, but couldn't.

There's never been any "sprinting" as far as the actual writing goes, just lots and lots of work.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> I'm just waiting for someone to say what they really wanna say. "I write better than you."


LMAO, vrabinec! I find myself grinning in anticipation of your posts on the regular.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Lisa Manifold said:


> I don't always agree with my betas/crit group. However, if more than three are telling me the same thing...even if I don't agree, I need to look at it.
> 
> Because you don't get a chance to explain yourself to the readers.
> 
> That was an...unfortunate lesson learned the hard way.


But a lesson you were willing to learn.
THAT is priceless. The rest is semantics and putting in the time to fix it.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Joe Vasicek said:


> That's sooo pre-2011. Nowadays, writers just say "I make more $$$ than you." Same difference.


Not really. One is subjective, one is not. One is an opinion, one is solid, hard, real proof of a successful journey...


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Um... I got my successful start not even a year ago. Also... kind of one of my points is that this business is always changing and you cannot rest on any success even when you find it. There's no "made it"... so... yeah, I think what we have to say still totally applies. We're all still trying to sell books in the market of today, not the market of the past or the future.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks...

I'm home and starting to read through the thread.  I've removed a couple of posts already, and edited another, with more to come.

I'm throwing a yellow card and warning that I'm willing to put people in the post moderation penalty box (to mix sporting metaphors) if people don't change their tone.

Different opinions are fine.  Different goals are fine.  Different definitions of success are fine.  Just be clear in what you're saying AND don't put words in other people's mouths...

Keep it civil.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Heck with the writing/publishing process....  this THREAD is a marathon.  Best advice is to sprint away in case something is catchy.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I take issue with the measuring contest. It's restricts women from competing as ours are imaginary.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Enter Betsy, well aware that her cattle-prod is the longest.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

LilyBLily said:


> Mike, I know someone who had instant success. Put the book out, and boom. Life-changing sales with almost no marketing. It was erotica. I don't write erotica, and nothing, not even dangling hundred dollar bills, is going to make me write erotica. If that makes me one of the dumb ones who visit here, so be it. That does not mean I don't treat this like a business. I simply know what business I want to be in, and it's not erotica.
> 
> I know this thread has degenerated into some acidulous back-and-forth, but I see the issue as more that people who have had success are telling new self-publishing authors, "Do it this way" when we can all see that the game has changed since they got their start. I've been given completely opposite advice from the very person who got lucky and sold instantly. Should I follow it? I don't think so. My road is my own.


There is no accounting for luck, so there is no point in trying to wrangle or discuss it, you know? Like, we can all post ad nauseum about the exceptions. The people who rocketed out of the gates for reasons unknown but it's something that literally can't be replicated because most times it wasn't even on purpose. It just...happens. So the stuff Annie is talking about is stuff that has worked time and time again for countless indie authors. Stuff that, to my mind, is just pure common sense when selling ANY product.

Study the market.
Make a product that has a large consumer base.
Make the product as attractive as you can (to the consumers who are known to buy it).
Make the product as good as you can.
Price it in a way that makes sense for your market.
Promote the product.
Build on your brand by making another product.

Will there be an artist or a visionary or just some lucky SOB who breaks the mold and STARTS a trend rather than catching one? Yep. But the most well-trodden path to success is the one above, the one that most of us have taken to get there, and the one that has the best chance of success.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Enter Betsy, well aware that her cattle-prod is the longest.


House rule: Mods always win.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> Enter Betsy, well aware that her cattle-prod is the longest.





Jim Johnson said:


> House rule: Mods always win.


Your thoughts for the day.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> House rule: Mods always win.


Yipes! With a prod like that, who needs rule(r)s?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

I feel absolutely no obligation to share my sales figures in a public forum. There's a good reason why polite society considers it uncouth to ask someone how much they make: it's to keep people from nosing around in other people's business. I don't come here to tell other people how to run their business, or to set myself up as an authority dispensing advice, so I really have nothing to prove to anyone. 

And even if I were making five or six figures every month, I wouldn't flaunt it. Time and time again, when successful KBoarders wear their sales figures on their sleeve, it's because they're trying to push their opinion as the gospel. When I'm making that kind of money, I won't do anything differently than what I'm doing right now (at least on KBoards).


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, I've removed some posts and some posts that referred to posts already removed--apparently some people started responding to those posts before I had a chance to remove them.  

So, if your post is missing, and you're not sure what happened, feel free to PM me.

Let's keep it civil here.  There's no requirement that people post their earnings here.  And others shouldn't make guestimates.  Use the information that's visible in the thread; the quality and temper of the responses and the books in the signatures, if visible, to draw your own conclusions on whose advice you want to follow, given your own aspirations.  That's fair game.  Attacking your fellow members is not.

I'm trying to keep this thread open, but it's getting very difficult.  Remember, not every post has to be responded to--silence is a very powerful response in itself.

One last time, please keep it civil or this thread WILL be locked.  

Betsy


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> Study the market.
> Make a product that has a large consumer base.
> Make the product as attractive as you can (to the consumers who are known to buy it).
> Make the product as good as you can.
> ...


Very sensible list. I'd quibble a bit with the 'large consumer base' though. Not every writer wants to write romance or erotica or thrillers. If a writer's passionate about a niche market, they should go write to their passion, though they should plan to be realistic about their expectations of success. One of my first series is a weird western, which is a small subgenre with fans eager for more to read. I don't expect to make bank, but I expect I'll find some loyal readers, and I'll be writing something I love.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Jim Johnson said:


> House rule: Mods always win.


They didn't in _Quadrophenia_.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> Very sensible list. I'd quibble a bit with the 'large consumer base' though. Not every writer wants to write romance or erotica or thrillers. If a writer's passionate about a niche market, they should go write to their passion, though they should plan to be realistic about their expectations of success. One of my first series is a weird western, which is a small subgenre with fans eager for more to read. I don't expect to make bank, but I expect I'll find some loyal readers, and I'll be writing something I love.


Good  But... also not what this thread is about, as stated clearly in the OP.

Also... there are substantial audiences in genres besides romance or thriller. Readership in a genre doesn't have to be that huge to make good money in it. 10,000 semi-reliable fans will do the trick, I've found. But steps have to constantly be taken to retain existing readership and grow new readership, or success will be fleeting. That is sort of part of my point here.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> I feel absolutely no obligation to share my sales figures in a public forum. There's a good reason why polite society considers it uncouth to ask someone how much they make: it's to keep people from nosing around in other people's business. I don't come here to tell other people how to run their business, or to set myself up as an authority dispensing advice, so I really have nothing to prove to anyone.


But you _have_. You offered your experience as a counter, saying that you've found your own successful path. It's a claim you've made with zero evidence. The evidence, in fact, belies your claim.



> And even if I were making five or six figures every month, I wouldn't flaunt it. Time and time again, when successful KBoarders wear their sales figures on their sleeve, it's because they're trying to push their opinion as the gospel.


Who is doing that? What I see is other people saying hey, pay attention to Annie. She sells really well, and I think she knows what she's talking about. When I discussed my own experience, I took out numbers and showed sales of good launches versus weak launches as a ratio of good to bad. There were no numbers.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Michael, Joe....

You've both made your points.  Several times each.  They stand for people to consider.  Please move on--back to the original topic or to another thread.

Thanks.

Betsy


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I share basic numbers because I think people should make decisions based on data, real data. I remember back when a lot of us shared sales numbers on Kboards and it helped me immensely in staying positive and knowing what I wanted was even possible. My indie friends sharing numbers with me now helps me know what advice might help me and what advice to ignore. 

If you feel that someone saying "hey, here is some experience and advice that might be useful if you want to achieve X, and btw, I'm currently achieving X" to be offensive or whatever... I think that says a lot more about you than about us. Sorry.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> If you feel that someone saying "hey, here is some experience and advice that might be useful if you want to achieve X, and btw, I'm currently achieving X" to be offensive or whatever... I think that says a lot more about you than about us. Sorry.


But that's not what people are saying. They're saying "Kindlespy says you only make $$ a month, so GTFO and stop muddying the swimming pool."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok, folks, at the very least, y'all need a cooling off period, and, frankly, I'm having a hard time keeping up with the thread. Go away and post in some other threads or design covers or, you know, write something. Check back later.

_Due to the repeated warnings, this thread will remain locked. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to PM me.. --Betsy_

Betsy
KB Mod


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