# I'm shocked at editing prices!



## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

On some websites, over $4000 for a 73,000-word novel. WOW. Other offers varied, but none were under $1000. I used to think I could make money writing novels, but I'm suddenly realizing that the real money is in editing. As an author, I intrinsically believe I can edit another person's book. I know what sounds good, proper grammar and can easily recognize contradictions, weak paragraphs, and awkward phrasing. Those are things all authors should be able to do, and thus, we could all be editors. I'm sure I'll get plenty of responses like, "Editing is a completely separate and distinct task from story-telling, and it takes 20 years to become a half-decent editor!" OK. Believe whatever you want. I can edit a book as well as anyone and that's not the point, anyway.

How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections. Like I said earlier, I'm either in the wrong profession or editing prices should be much more competitively priced. $4000 for one week of reading and criticizing? Who wouldn't do that? I'm just surprised at these prices...

End observation.


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

I'd expect in-depth developmental and line editing for that price.  I think a really good editor is probably worth that, though. You pay for experience and skill level, essentially. Editing - especially developmental - is hard work, and it requires a LOT of skill and understanding. You need to be able to immerse yourself in someone else's world and writing style, pull out the main elements, map them, ensure that they all make sense and flow correctly... yeesh. I've just started with developmental editing on short stories, and it really brought home to me how freaking difficult it can be to do it well. Doing it badly is probably pretty easy, though.



markobeezy said:


> As an author, I intrinsically believe I can edit another person's book. I know what sounds good, proper grammar and can easily recognize contradictions, weak paragraphs, and awkward phrasing. Those are things all authors should be able to do, and thus, we could all be editors.


That'd make you an OK line and copy editor - IF you're capable of working with, not against, another author's style and voice. A lot of authors aren't.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Are you talking about developmental editing or line editing? Two totally different things.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dude, editing takes much much longer than merely reading.  But if you think you can do better for cheaper, then have at it!

$4000 is a premium price (maybe $15 a page) but not out of line if it's a service with more than one person working on the ms. (I.e. a developmental editor, and a copy editor and a proofer or two.)  And yes, some famous book doctors get more for their star names.  And a nonfiction work may involve a lot of rewriting or research and fact checking by a specialist who commands $50+ an hour. 

Having been just a story analyst -- no proofing or copy editing -- I can say that I would not do it again for less than $50 an hour.  And just writing the report can take quite a lot of time.

But honestly, if you think you can do better for less, you ought to hang up your shingle.  There's definitely a market for it.

Camille


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Get quotes.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

You know, I've been programming my DVR for years. I could probably set up shop as a cable provider.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

...


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Editors will also vary their price, based on the level of editing they thing is required for a piece. They may also include follow-ups. Let's say an editor saw a sample and thought it needed a developmental edit, then a copy/line-edit, and then a final pass. That would take a lot of time.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Id suggest dropping the word _edit_, and simply describe the task in question.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm guessing it's the Picasso thing? Like you're not paying for the time it takes to read the MS. You're paying for all of the years of experience and time it's taken to learn all the skills to edit.

Yeah, but I agree with you for the most part. Paying that much for editing is not economical. And there's no way you make that much more money for an edited book than a non edited one. Sure, you _should_ make more money if your book is flawless. But, you know, that's not how it works.

Not saying you shouldn't pay an editor, either. Just saying that is doesn't make good business sense to throw thousands of dollars at a product when you know that most of your products make you less than a grand per year. That puts you in the hole. Forever.

And you can say what you like about paying lots of money to ensure you have a professional product and you can play with the big boys, etc., etc. But this business is so utterly random that if it hasn't broken your heart yet, you haven't been in it long enough, so there's no ensuring _anything_. It's a fact that very poorly-put-together products sell well in this business. And it's not just occasionally. It's a lot of the time that I pick something up in the Top 100 of the Kindle store and it is GODAWFUL. It's also a fact that beautifully-published books languish down in the #300,000s of the store. Furthermore, there are cheaper ways to get a quality product.

Paying thousands of dollars per book for editing is a choice that some people might make for various reasons, and I'm not going to knock those people. I don't do it because it doesn't make good business sense for me.


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## B.T. Narro (May 30, 2013)

I was first shocked about the cost of most editors as well. However, most humans don't have the ability find missing words or misspelled words because their brain puts in what they expect to see. Good editors have either trained to read every word individually, or they've simply been born with this ability. I personally couldn't be a good editor because I would never find the missing "to" in second sentence of this post if I didn't know it was there. (Just an example).

What I'm trying to say is that editing is a skill that's very different from writing. Yes, as writers we tend to be better at editing than the average person, but that's only because of the time we've spent editing. It has little to do with our time spent writing. Good editors have way more experience than us, and that's why we pay them


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## BlairErotica (Mar 1, 2014)

Prices are not the same as what people actually pay. If you look at cars down at your neighborhood Ferrari dealership you'll come away thinking cars are not affordable. And those aren't for most of us. But there are cars that are more affordable just as there are editors (right on this board) advertising lower prices too.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

B.T. Narro said:


> I was first shocked about the cost of most editors as well. However, most humans don't have the ability find missing words or misspelled words because their brain puts in what they expect to see. Good editors have either trained to read every word individually, or they've simply been born with this ability. I personally couldn't be a good editor because I would never find the missing "to" in second sentence of this post if I didn't know it was there. (Just an example).
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that editing is a skill that's very different from writing. Yes, as writers we tend to be better at editing than the average person, but that's only because of the time we've spent editing. It has little to do with our time spent writing. Good editors have way more experience than us, and that's why we pay them


You're missing a "the" in the fourth sentence, too.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

markobeezy said:


> On some websites, over $4000 for a 73,000-word novel. WOW. Other offers varied, but none were under $1000. I used to think I could make money writing novels, but I'm suddenly realizing that the real money is in editing.


You can get it done for much less than $1000 but as you allude to that means not getting the person with 20 years experience. If quoted $300 it is likely to be someone fresh out of a college course and the chances are that, as an author, you know as much about novel writing and grammar as they do. If you see a really cheap offer check the person out on their website, Facebook, LinkedIn etc. Is their writing there the sort of standard that you would need to pay money to bring your novel up to. In many cases the answer is a clear no for most people (in my case it would a clear no even at $1000+ but I have a stronger writing background than most debut novelists). The reality is that the price has come down, that might have been topping out at $15000 ten years ago.

As to where the real money is, Mark Coker CEO of Smashwords said http://blog.smashwords.com/2012/12/mark-cokers-2013-book-publishing.html that it would be in ancillary services rather than the novelists themselves in his predictions for 2013 (point 14), but dropped that line in his predictions for 2014 as he realised that he was not pampering the novelists that his ancillary service makes its money from.

There are a lot of novelists who supplement their income with editing work, but I personally would find it hard to trust a novelist as editor because I would expect them to be tempted to write my novel for me, even if I was just hiring them for copy editing. Of course, as stated I would find it hard to trust any but the most highly rated due to my skill-set, but would not avail of their services due to my business sense in not spending too much on a literary fiction work that is never likely to set any sales records.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I didn't pay for developmental edit for my novel, but I ran it through two beta groups to help me with the structural issues. Then I just pay for a copy edit to help me with grammar and sentence flow. 

But I "paid" for my developmental edit by spending 6 weeks doing the same for 5 other writers. Either way, you still have to pay to play.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

markobeezy said:


> On some websites, over $4000 for a 73,000-word novel. WOW. Other offers varied, but none were under $1000. I used to think I could make money writing novels, but I'm suddenly realizing that the real money is in editing. As an author, I intrinsically believe I can edit another person's book. I know what sounds good, proper grammar and can easily recognize contradictions, weak paragraphs, and awkward phrasing. Those are things all authors should be able to do, and thus, we could all be editors. I'm sure I'll get plenty of responses like, "Editing is a completely separate and distinct task from story-telling, and it takes 20 years to become a half-decent editor!" OK. Believe whatever you want. I can edit a book as well as anyone and that's not the point, anyway.
> 
> How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections. Like I said earlier, I'm either in the wrong profession or editing prices should be much more competitively priced. $4000 for one week of reading and criticizing? Who wouldn't do that? I'm just surprised at these prices...
> 
> End observation.


Take a look at what ghostwriters make. Sticker shock.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Sit your work on a shelf until you've forgotten the story, then go over it with a critical eye. Repeat a couple of times, then pay someone you trust who charges by the hour. Saves me a lot of money. Not exactly time efficient though.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Well then I say, just get it proofread. 
I actually had to look up what developmental editing was to be honest with you.
It seems as though they are more of a partner in your writing as opposed to just a helper.
That being said, I'm not surprised it would cost so much.

Developmental editors cover : the underlying premise of the story, character development, use of dialogue/ sensory description, polish, narrative voice, pacing, style, and language. But they don't do spelling and grammar.

If you suspect you need help with the things listed above I would suggest creating a mood board for your book. 
Write a paper (or mood board) about your imaginary narrator. Learn their phrasing.
Keep a checklist for every chapter to make sure you use ALL of the senses.
Check for unnecessary paragraphs or things that stick out like too long paragraphs in a sea of short paragraphs or vice versa.
It really comes down to just knowing your book and the world you want to create. 

I think most writers can skip developmental edits, but proofreading is a MUST at the very least!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

You can do it with a few good beta readers and a decent proofreader if you have any grasp of how to use language.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

nomesque said:


> That'd make you an OK line and copy editor - IF you're capable of working with, not against, another author's style and voice. A lot of authors aren't.


^ That would be my problem. I can pick out typos and repetitive word choices and other problems in someone's mss, (much better than I can with my own!). I used to do a lot of beta reading when I started writing, and in fact, learned a lot by beta reading, but I know myself now. I would want to suggest writing something the way I would write it. Maybe I should practice a bit and see if I can subdue that desire, but who has the time?


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

ChristinePope said:


> You're missing a "the" in the fourth sentence, too.


I missed both of those. My mind filled in the missing words. Yikes!


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Freddy Hansen said:


> Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


Move over, Freddy.


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## Anthea Sharp (Feb 4, 2014)

Content editing often costs into the thousands. A good copy-edit can be gotten for $300-500. Don't conflate the two.

Many experienced authors have critique partners/beta readers who fulfill a lot of the "content editor" roles. Copy Editor is a must-hire, but should not break the bank.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Oh boy. I can see the potential of this thread spanning 3 - 5 pages of replies. 

Editing is hard and guarantees money (as long as you have a good reputation and eye for detail). Publishing your work is hard (should be if you're doing it right) and guarantees nothing (but has a limitless ceiling). 

*Deleted rest of post*


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Anthea Sharp said:


> Content editing often costs into the thousands. A good copy-edit can be gotten for $300-500. Don't conflate the two.


This.


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## lucyvarna (Feb 18, 2014)

markobeezy said:


> How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections.


I edit a small genealogy newsletter. It runs 32 to 36 pages per quarter. My first issue as editor (which was the first issue [of the newsletter]), I had an author submit what turned out to be a ten-page article. It took four weeks of back-and-forth between me and the editor to finalize the copy. I estimate that I put about ten to fifteen hours into the article and formatting, which the author told me (without my asking) was more than she put into writing the article.


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## FH (Jul 30, 2012)

KJCOLT said:


> Oh boy. I can see the potential of this thread spanning 3 - 5 pages of replies.
> 
> Editing is hard and guarantees money (as long as you have a good reputation and eye for detail). Publishing your work is hard (should be if you're doing it right) and guarantees nothing (but has a limitless ceiling).
> 
> *Deleted rest of post*


NOOOOO! undelete undeeeeelete!


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

I have repeatedly offered to do some editing for free, after which I would either do the whole work free, or for a very low price. There is one price is for grammatical, another for literary editing, and yet another for both. FYI I am very rarely contacted regarding this offer. My experiemce includes being a former newspaper book editor who has edited, formatted and published 28 ebooks. And, I wrote and edited my own Ph.D. Dissertation.

IF people prefer to pay high prices rather than use my free or very low priced services, that is up to them.

Regards,

Phillip Duke Ph.D.


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

markobeezy said:


> How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections.


I know! Those wacky editors, thinking they should get professional wages for professional work!

The copyeditors are the _worst_. All they do is check spelling to make sure names of characters, places, events, and things are consistent and accurate (and waste time on the Internet looking up stuff the author didn't); ensure grammar is properly used according to voice and character; and query 
* questionable word usage
* areas where the meaning is unclear
* possible factual errors
* inconsistencies
* repetition
* phrasing that might be more effective if condensed
* tone that may be inappropriate for the target audience
* quotations for which permission may be required

So what if a careful copyeditor can only copyedit 8-12 pages an hour, or maybe 12-15 if the manuscript has been touched by the gods? That's 3,750 gods-touched words an hour!

So what if they can only work about five hours a day before their brain is fried and they start to miss errors? That's 18,750 gods-touched words a day! And 93,750 gods-touched words in a week! It's outrageous to expect $500 for a week's work!

Oh, how I wish to someday see one of those gods-touched manuscripts.


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## B.T. Narro (May 30, 2013)

ChristinePope said:


> You're missing a "the" in the fourth sentence, too.


lol, nice  And that wasn't even on purpose.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Chris Vaughn said:


> Totally not in the theme of this post, but I love your covers!


Second that!


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

Off topic some more, but I love the winking coffee avatar!


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

markobeezy said:


> On some websites, over $4000 for a 73,000-word novel. WOW. Other offers varied, but none were under $1000. I used to think I could make money writing novels, but I'm suddenly realizing that the real money is in editing. As an author, I intrinsically believe I can edit another person's book. I know what sounds good, proper grammar and can easily recognize contradictions, weak paragraphs, and awkward phrasing. Those are things all authors should be able to do, and thus, we could all be editors. I'm sure I'll get plenty of responses like, "Editing is a completely separate and distinct task from story-telling, and it takes 20 years to become a half-decent editor!" OK. Believe whatever you want. I can edit a book as well as anyone and that's not the point, anyway.
> 
> How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections. Like I said earlier, I'm either in the wrong profession or editing prices should be much more competitively priced. $4000 for one week of reading and criticizing? Who wouldn't do that? I'm just surprised at these prices...
> 
> End observation.


Some editors re-read your corrected / revised draft and offer opinions / another set of editorial suggestions. They also answer your questions and/or brainstorm as needed. It takes a lot longer than 1 week, esp. if you're working with a very flawed story (not that grammar sucks, but the actual story itself requires a lot of work and attention).

BTW - if all you want is somebody to fix your grammar, you need copyediting, which should be much cheaper than $4k, unless it's virtually illiterate.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Dave Dykema said:


> Off topic some more, but I love the winking coffee avatar!


Thanks! I've always enjoyed your thought bubble!


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

markobeezy said:


> How long does it take to read a 73,000 word novel, if that's your primary job? One day? How long for actually editing the book? 1-2 weeks, with a detailed analysis and corrections.
> 
> End observation.


If you can do it in 2 weeks, I'll outsource my work to you (assuming you deliver the same quality, of course). A good job? takes me about a month. A rush job (which I only do for a few people ...), 3 weeks. One book is never my only job, but you also can't edit 6 hours a day straight. You'll miss stuff. You have to do it in spurts. Then you'll need a minimum of two passes, and some negotiation on bumpy passages. My authors take a bit of fact checking, too, and sometimes that takes time. And so on. It's not the same as pleasure reading. I do hope you get that, at least.

I charge indies in the neighborhood of $500-$650, depending on the work. But a trad publisher pays me $8000-12,000, and at a more leisurely 4-5 months. So there's not a whole lot of incentive to pick up more indie clients. I have my few that I love, and am booked out with them for the next year at least.

If you feel you can command those rates and deliver, then by all means, have at it. I have to turn down work all the time, so I assume there's a market for top editors out there still.


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## komura 420 (Aug 25, 2013)

Editor: Do you remember the minor character in Chapter 2, Taylor?
Author: Yeah, so what?
Editor: Well, in Chapter 2 Taylor is a man.
Author: Big deal
Editor: So the one night hook up between Taylor and your protagonist later in chapter 11...
Author: Oh my, I see your point


I think editors are essential.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> and waste time on the Internet looking up stuff the author didn't


This.



Sandra K. Williams said:


> It's outrageous to expect $500 for a week's work!


And this.

It always cracks me up when I see people complaining about how much editors make. I think many of you are living in a dream world if you think that most editors are making over 50K a year. But don't worry, most college kids with aspirations for such a job are being fed the same lie. I guess I should assume that most authors are making as much as Hugh or H.M. Ward. You know, just to be fair since we're tossing out salaries for top editors in the biz. 

This thread is precisely the reason I stopped editing. No money and certainly no respect.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm currently working on three utterly different projects (these were preceded by a how-to book for TV writers, three thrillers, two romances--and in each, I have managed, I think, to put myself in the author's shoes).

--The autobiography of a dyslexic British working class man who ended up visiting, working, and living in a number of countries on five continents.

--A book of history and historical commentary written by a professor.

--A commentary, by an Ivy league person of distinction, on certain religious texts. It takes me ten minutes to read a single page of this book: the language is complex. I am rarely able to work on this book for more than 3.5 hours a day. In fact, I am rarely able to do any other mental work on the days that I am working on this book.

Each of them is paying me a different hourly rate; I accepted a lower rate in one case, because the person is living on a pension, and I was happy to enable him to complete and publish his first book.

But I have also worked on the basis of a flat fee, and I've almost always ended up underestimating the time it would take: sometimes, out of an eagerness to get the job.

Either way, being an editor (I'm doing it only to support my works in progress) is definitely not a guaranteed road to riches, or even to an easy life. 

Still, I do enjoy editing an interesting or challenging book. In terms of job satisfaction (though not pay), it is preferable to many other jobs I could think of.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Anthea Sharp said:


> Content editing often costs into the thousands. A good copy-edit can be gotten for $300-500. Don't conflate the two.
> 
> Many experienced authors have critique partners/beta readers who fulfill a lot of the "content editor" roles. Copy Editor is a must-hire, but should not break the bank.


Prices are all over the board. I use Cindy Tahse of Smashing Edits for final copy edits, and she's very thorough, fast and reasonable, usually at the low end of the range quoted above. She does a sample edit and quotes based off that, so you get to see her work and she gets to see how much work is needed. Some projects need a ton of work, which takes much longer. She checks all grammar and spelling issues and also looks for inconsistencies, awkward wording, etc. She really does a great job and is super nice. www.smashingedits.com


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## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't understand. It's a buyers' market. Everyone and their dog offers content and copy editing. Just drop a proposal at Elance and you'll find $1,000 is the upper range for quality editors with an impressive portfolio. The prices only get cheaper and the service better if you stick to one editor for each of your books.


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## komura 420 (Aug 25, 2013)

Yo Pamela Kelly...thanks for the good recommendation for editing.

Am in need and this helps.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> I know! Those wacky editors, thinking they should get professional wages for professional work!
> 
> The copyeditors are the _worst_. All they do is check spelling to make sure names of characters, places, events, and things are consistent and accurate (and waste time on the Internet looking up stuff the author didn't); ensure grammar is properly used according to voice and character; and query
> * questionable word usage
> ...


So very true. This is one of the reasons I burned out on freelance writing years ago - people expect quality work for next to nothing.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2014)

Anthea Sharp said:


> Content editing often costs into the thousands. A good copy-edit can be gotten for $300-500. Don't conflate the two.
> 
> Many experienced authors have critique partners/beta readers who fulfill a lot of the "content editor" roles. Copy Editor is a must-hire, but should not break the bank.


^^^^THIS^^^^


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2014)

Dave Dykema said:


> Off topic some more, but I love the winking coffee avatar!


^^^^THIS^^^^


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## Paul Huxley (Feb 27, 2014)

phildukephd said:


> I have repeatedly offered to do some editing for free, after which I would either do the whole work free, or for a very low price. There is one price is for grammatical, another for literary editing, and yet another for both. FYI I am very rarely contacted regarding this offer. My experiemce includes being a former newspaper book editor who has edited, formatted and published 28 ebooks. And, I wrote and edited my own Ph.D. Dissertation.
> 
> IF people prefer to pay high prices rather than use my free or very low priced services, that is up to them.
> 
> ...


I've done a fair amount of proofreading, and story development too. I find it helps when pitching for work to check what I've written for mistakes before I post. Experiemce? And starting a sentence with 'and'? Sorry, I don't mean to be a dick, but it's a personal bugbear of mine.

I find editing, and proofing, a lot harder than writing fiction. Anyone can write, but not everyone can proofread. If I could afford it, I would pay top dollar for a good editor.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Paul Huxley said:


> And starting a sentence with 'and'?


If you meant that to be funny, it was. If you didn't, it still was.

Regardless, this is an example of potential interaction between editors and authors, and why we word-pervs can suck the hours out of anyone's workweek.

I occasionally start sentences with the word, "and." Maybe 2 or 3 per novel. I like how it flows in just a few places, and this drives my editor crazy.

Even if I were qualified (which I'm clearly not), I wouldn't want to edit books. I've read a few thousand of your posts here. I know you people. We writers can be a difficult bunch to work with.

Editing one of my books makes the Spanish Inquisition look like a frat party. My editor earns her money.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

I knew somebody that worked as a copy-editor and I can assure you that he wasn't not rolling around in money. People keep making the suggestion that they can work xxx hours a week, or do yyy manuscripts in a week, but the reality is that unless you have a reputation and a strong client base, steady work can be harder to find that you might think, even if you are good at it.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2014)

Joe_Nobody said:


> We writers can be a difficult bunch to work with.


In more ways than one.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't think I can edit. I could book doctor some because I've spent so many years studying technique, but I am well aware that I should not be editing copy. It's a completely different skill set than writing, and fiction is Chicago Manual of Style. Schools usually use something different (it escapes me at the moment because I'm old). Freelance is AP style. Technical is often Microsoft Manual of Style. And then every house, editor, writer, company has their own exceptions to the rules, so they have a personal style guide. 

I don't want to worry about serial commas and such when I write a book. I want someone who is passionate about serial commas to worry about them for me. I have no desire to edit and I am not foolish enough to think that just because I write a good book I could be a good editor. I am certain I could not. 

btw - For all the editors here, my editor swears I write clean. I'll take her word for it. Looks like a lot of tweaking to me.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Editors will also vary their price, based on the level of editing they thing is required for a piece.


Exactly. I'm hoping that, once I send mine out for quotes, they start a bidding war, offering to pay for the right to have their name associated with the thing. I've included the additional income in my budget.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Exactly. I'm hoping that, once I send mine out for quotes, they start a bidding war, offering to pay for the right to have their name associated with the thing. I've included the additional income in my budget.


Don't forget to include the retainer Bookbub will pay you to showcase your book.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Try my friend and editor, Frankie Sutton. She does great work for reasonable prices.

http://frankiesfreelanceediting.blogspot.com


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## Al Dente (Sep 3, 2012)

My wife and I both carefully edit my books, but not everyone has the patience or correct skill set to do that. I'm working on an English degree specifically so I can be an editor. When that's finished, I'll find out what the appropriate certifications are for editors and work on attaining those. I have worked as a slush editor for a webzine before, and I have years of experience helping friends polish their works; I'm confident in my abilities to edit my stuff.

I know it's sometimes laughed at, but it's true that writing and editing are very different skills. If I decided to hire someone else, I would not approach another author who has had no experience in polishing the written words of other authors. I don't want that person's voice invading my stories; I don't want their bad writing habits (we ALL have a few) to get mixed in; I don't want someone without experience to attempt developmental, or even basic line editing, on my story.

There are great editors posting on KB everyday, and some of them are also authors. I'd easily trust them with my books, because they have experience and a portfolio to show their talents. As for hiring someone who sees a $4,000 price quote on a website and thinks, "Man! I'm in the wrong business. I can do this too!" I'd have to say, "No, but thanks anyway." 

I don't say that to offend anyone. It's simply how I feel about the situation. I'm an indie author, which means that my books have to look just as good, and read just as well, as traditional books so I can show potential readers that I'm serious about what I do. I couldn't do that if I hired the first author I saw claiming to be a great editor. Show me how good you are, and not with your own books. Give me names of other people who trust you with their literary children. With that said, you certainly could gain the know-how needed to be an editor, but you're going to have to study hard and work hard to gain the necessary skills for that job. It's the same as any other gig.

I imagine many others feel the same way that I do.


----------



## Deke (May 18, 2013)

I use Elance and set my own price range. I've been lucky, but did hire one "editor" who did little more than run spell check.  So from now on I post a chapter, or a few pages, so I can judge the quality of editing before I hire.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

A development edit from a top editor is expensive. But, if you search, you can get a content edit/proofread from very good editors for $0.004 to $0.075 per word. That should run you $300 to $550 for a 73K word book. To earn $30K to $55K a year at these rates, you'd have to edit 100 books a year--about two a week. When you factor in the time it takes to drum up business and schedule and communicate with authors and handle invoices, it can't be easy.


----------



## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

You think that's bad...I just had to replace my living room furniture!


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Paul Huxley said:


> I've done a fair amount of proofreading, and story development too. I find it helps when pitching for work to check what I've written for mistakes before I post. Experiemce? And starting a sentence with 'and'? Sorry, I don't mean to be a
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Joe_Nobody said:


> If you meant that to be funny, it was. If you didn't, it still was.
> 
> Regardless, this is an example of potential interaction between editors and authors, and why we word-pervs can suck the hours out of anyone's workweek.
> 
> ...


From _The Chicago Manual of Style_:

5.206 Beginning a sentence with a conjunction

There is a widespread belief-one with no historical or grammatical foundation-that it is an error to begin a sentence with a conjunction such as and, but, or so. In fact, a substantial percentage (often as many as 10 percent) of the sentences in first-rate writing begin with conjunctions. It has been so for centuries, and even the most conservative grammarians have followed this practice. Charles Allen Lloyd's 1938 words fairly sum up the situation as it stands even today:

Next to the groundless notion that it is incorrect to end an English sentence with a preposition, perhaps the most wide-spread of the many false beliefs about the use of our language is the equally groundless notion that it is incorrect to begin one with "but" or "and." As in the case of the superstition about the prepositional ending, no textbook supports it, but apparently about half of our teachers of English go out of their way to handicap their pupils by inculcating it. One cannot help wondering whether those who teach such a monstrous doctrine ever read any English themselves.7

Still, _but_ as an adversative conjunction can occasionally be unclear at the beginning of a sentence. Evaluate the contrasting force of the_ but_ in question, and see whether the needed word is really and; if and can be substituted, then but is almost certainly the wrong word. Consider this example: _He went to school this morning. But he left his lunch box on the kitchen table. _Between those sentences is an elliptical idea, since the two actions are in no way contradictory. What is implied is something like this: _He went to school, intending to have lunch there, but he left his lunch behind._ Because and would have made sense in the passage as originally stated, but is not the right word-the idea for the contrastive but should be explicit. To sum up, then, _but_ is a perfectly proper word to open a sentence, but only if the idea it introduces truly contrasts with what precedes. For that matter, _but_ is often an effective word for introducing a paragraph that develops an idea contrary to the one preceding it.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Lynn McNamee said:


> From _The Chicago Manual of Style_:
> 
> 5.206 Beginning a sentence with a conjunction
> 
> ...


Showoff.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

" To earn $30K to $55K a year at these rates, …"

I'm not after the editor looking to make such yearly salary. I'm after the editor that wants to earn a couple hundred extra bucks.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Having used a variety of editors, I just want one who does a good job. And if she costs more, I don't really give a fig. I just want a clean edit and someone I can trust. Luckily, I've found a few who fit that description. No one wants me editing or proofreading anything. Heck, I wouldn't trust me. I think I might be a decent critique partner, though.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Lynn McNamee said:


> From _The Chicago Manual of Style_:
> 
> 5.206 Beginning a sentence with a conjunction
> 
> ...


That's good to know. Because I do it.

(See what I did there?)

Twenty years as an editor, two as a fiction writer here. Editing is harder and a lot less fun, but writing pays a whole lot better, so far. Which doesn't seem fair, but there you go.

I believe editors earn their pay, but I won't enter the debate beyond that.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

I ams with you for suure on dis one. I don't ned a stinking editr for my works cuz I cann doit myselph. So take dat!


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

markobeezy said:


> On some websites, over $4000 for a 73,000-word novel.


That is overpriced, even for macro editing.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I've long said you couldn't pay me enough to proofread a novel for someone else, and it's the truth. It's tedious, exacting, time-consuming work. While I've never thought about the other forms of editing that way because I don't have the skill to set myself up as a content editor or line editor, if I did have the skill, I'd still feel the same way and go looking for an easier way to make a living. 

I can only imagine how a content editor feels when he/she gets in a novel without a single redeeming feature and hates everything about it. I can only imagine the tedium of doing copy editing on something that has errors in every sentence.

Payors may feel the cost of editing is high, but I bet the payee often feels severely underpaid.


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## Lorelei Logsdon (Feb 4, 2014)

$4,000? Wow, I need to restructure my rates, then. I *do* have 20 years of experience and a master's degree in English.

It would take me roughly five days to edit 73,000 words, and my cost would be around $650 (before my current discount for the month of April).

Editing most certainly does not make me rich, but I do it because I love it and because I'm good at it.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Deke said:


> " To earn $30K to $55K a year at these rates, ..."
> 
> I'm not after the editor looking to make such yearly salary. I'm after the editor that wants to earn a couple hundred extra bucks.


It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'm looking for an editor I can afford, preferably someone who is fast enough that they don't have to charge so much for a really good job." But to look for someone who doesn't want to make a living?

People have a right to make a decent living at their work. We all seem to get the fact that it's bad to exploit writers. Why is it so permissible to exploit editors and artists? ("Oh, yeah, get some art student to do your cover for free!")

When we go around gasping and saying "OMG, they dared to ask for a wage that is less than the median income!" we put pressure on the market. We push the price down to where no one can make a living -- so you end up with a field of newbies who don't know the business.

Let's stop being shocked that other people aren't willing to subsidize us by taking starvation wages.

If it's really that easy, why are people even bothering to hire someone else? Why not just do it yourself?

Camille


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Proofreading your own stuff? Output a Word html doc. In Notead, do a find/replace on all periods. Replace them with five para breaks and a period.

Now open the file in Word. Each sentence will be isolated with five blank lines above and below it. Go forward or backwards looking at each sentence in isolation. If you do it on a wide monitor, and don't write many long sentences, each sentence will be a single isolated line.

You have to do some file name suffix changing between HTML and TXT. I forget exactly what. Play with it.

Some folks find it much easier to spot errors in isolated sentences. I'm one of them.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks for the tip, Terrence. I read mine out loud and read it backwards paragraph by paragraph, but doing what you suggest and reading it backwards sentence by sentence would probably work even better.


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## S.G. Dean (Jan 25, 2014)

Freddy Hansen said:


> Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


I'm with you there.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'm looking for an editor I can afford, preferably someone who is fast enough that they don't have to charge so much for a really good job." But to look for someone who doesn't want to make a living?
> 
> People have a right to make a decent living at their work. We all seem to get the fact that it's bad to exploit writers. Why is it so permissible to exploit editors and artists? ("Oh, yeah, get some art student to do your cover for free!")
> 
> ...


Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I had a developmental editor who charged $600-something to read my 40,000 word book and she way undercharged. She was wonderful.

A good editor makes an enormous difference in how the public perceives you, your writing talent, and your professionalism. And it is near impossible to edit your own work. I was a newspaper reporter, I've been an editor, and I can't edit my own writing. And I just started a sentence with and, by the way. Twice.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> Having used a variety of editors, I just want one who does a good job. And if she costs more, I don't really give a fig. I just want a clean edit and someone I can trust. Luckily, I've found a few who fit that description. No one wants me editing or proofreading anything. Heck, I wouldn't trust me. I think I might be a decent critique partner, though.


I agree. Bad editors are worse than no editor.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2014)

Freddy Hansen said:


> Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


My popcorn is gone. Plus, I've seen this one before.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

NadiaLee said:


> I agree. Bad editors are worse than no editor.


This is great advice. So now I am going to market myself as a cheap editor, and just leave the customer's books unchanged. BRILLIANCE!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2014)

markobeezy said:


> OK. Believe whatever you want. I can edit a book as well as anyone and that's not the point, anyway.


Well, if by "anyone" you mean "anyone with a similar level of self-congratulatory hubris and general disdain for the editorial process." Then I suppose you are correct.

Others have already pointed it out. But it is clear you don't even know what an actual content editor does. Heck, few people around here do. Most of the time when people talk about editing they are talking about proofreading (which in and of itself is NOT an easy task. Ye gods know I suck at it!).

If you can't AFFORD a content editor, then you can't afford one. You do what you can. Maybe you make due with beta readers or you have a friend that works with you. Or maybe you genuinely believe that your storytelling is so flawless that an editor would "taint" your genius. But this entire post is an insult to those of us who actually do the work of content editing. It isn't just reading the story and looking for typos. It is looking for faulty logic, plot holes, poor scene execution, lapses in continuity, underdevelopment of characters, data dumps, poorly executed POV shifts, inappropriate head-jumping, stilted dialogue, bad pacing. *And that is on the first pass*. Then you go back to the author and you try to work out how to correct all of those things. And you rinse and repeat until it is right.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

D-Scrog said:


> My wife and I both carefully edit my books, but not everyone has the patience or correct skill set to do that. I'm working on an English degree specifically so I can be an editor. When that's finished, I'll find out what the appropriate certifications are for editors and work on attaining those. I have worked as a slush editor for a webzine before, and I have years of experience helping friends polish their works; I'm confident in my abilities to edit my stuff.
> 
> I know it's sometimes laughed at, but it's true that writing and editing are very different skills. If I decided to hire someone else, I would not approach another author who has had no experience in polishing the written words of other authors. I don't want that person's voice invading my stories; I don't want their bad writing habits (we ALL have a few) to get mixed in; I don't want someone without experience to attempt developmental, or even basic line editing, on my story.
> 
> ...


You know, nobody will ever convince me that it's a good idea to be your own editor. It's great that you're taking classes and all, but you perceive your own words on the page differently than anyone else, because the whole thing played out in the Scrogg head as it went on paper, setting, motive, and everything else. The mind plays tricks and fills in the blanks. It's unavoidable, no matter how disciplined an editor you are. The only person who could properly edit their own stuff is someone with Alzheimer's. I'm not saying someone can't put out a self-edited book that has no punctuation errors, I'm saying someone who self-edits will miss SOMETHING that could have improved the story 99.9% of the time. Of course, outside editors might miss the same stuff, but it's much easier to spot in someone else's work.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

The biggest shock for me?

That the OP has 433 posts under his belt.

Usually this kind of post comes from someone who's still pretty new here. Like, under 100 posts.

Oh well... we all live and post and learn at our own pace.

* grabs popcorn and shares a six-pack of ginger ale with Freddy and L.L. *


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Deke said:


> " To earn $30K to $55K a year at these rates, ..."
> 
> I'm not after the editor looking to make such yearly salary. I'm after the editor that wants to earn a couple hundred extra bucks.


Oh. You mean inexperienced college students who spend more time on their homework than your book.

Gotcha. Good to know.  LOL


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

A conversation I once had with an author during the third pass of his manuscript (shared with author permission):

*Me:* I noticed the comment I made on the scene where the guy gets pulled over by a cop is still there.

*Author:* Yeah, I meant to ask you about that. You said the driver reaches for his wallet before saying that's what he's going to do, but that's not what I wrote. He says he's pulling out his ID, _then_ he reaches for his wallet. So I don't know what you want me to change.

*Me:* I'm sorry, but you definitely have him reaching into his pocket first. In a situation like the one they are in, the cop would shoot him as soon as the guy reaches into his pocket, before he even gets a chance to explain.

*Author:* Yeah, I agree, but I read that section five times, and I'm telling you that he tells the cop what he's going to do, _then_ he reaches into his pocket.

*Me: *Okay, let me read the passage to you.

[I read the section over the phone.]

_Silence._

*Author:* Oh, man! I have no idea how I missed that. You're right. He reaches first. I guess I just had that scene so ingrained in my brain that I thought I had written it the way I saw it in my head. _This_ is why everyone needs an editor.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn McNamee said:


> A conversation I once had with an author during the third pass of his manuscript (shared with author permission):
> 
> *Me:* I noticed the comment I made on the scene where the guy gets pulled over by a cop is still there.
> 
> ...


Typo alert!

Suggested change:

_This_ is why everyone needs Red Adept.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

CraigInOregon said:


> Oh. You mean inexperienced college students who spend more time on their homework than your book.
> 
> Gotcha. Good to know.  LOL


Exactly. I also find it crazy that an author would spend maybe months writing something and then expect it to be edited in a day.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

If X improves sales of one instance of a product, then X is necessary to improve sales of all instances of the product. Interesting idea.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Like I stated earlier I had NO idea the extent of work done by a content editor.
I think the wall people are hitting here, is that many other authors don't know the difference between all the types of editors.
It would be really helpful to have a list of different types of editing, their job, and their average cost somewhere.
Maybe as pinned topic or something ?

Editors, we all luv 'yall


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Bethany B. said:


> Exactly. I also find it crazy that an author would spend maybe months writing something and then expect it to be edited in a day.


I blame Harry Potter. Probably everyone subconsciously thinks editing involves waving a wand and chanting, "Manuscriptus edito!"


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Charmaine said:


> Editors, we all luv 'yall


Oh now, we know that's not true.  We're blunt and rip apart your baby. Being an author now, I can honestly say there are times I'd really like to hold my editors head in the toilet. But I'm still glad for the changes in the end.



LeeBee said:


> I blame Harry Potter. Probably everyone subconsciously thinks editing involves waving a wand and chanting, "Manuscriptus edito!"


I need one of those.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Lynn McNamee said:


> *Author:* Yeah, I agree, but I read that section five times, and I'm telling you that he tells the cop what he's going to do, _then_ he reaches into his pocket.
> 
> *Me: *Okay, let me read the passage to you.
> 
> ...


Thump thump thump! (The sound of my head hitting my desk.)

You know, that is another reason why the price of freelancing is so high. A huge part of the job consists of _dealing with the customer_. It is laborious, time consuming, aggravating.

I was kind of surprised at first when Self-Pub Book Covers attracted so many artists, in spite of the fact that they take a pretty large cut, AND they have the author doing the typesetting (which pretty much guarantees that the typography will not be optimum). But you know, there is seriously something to be said for cutting out the long, wrangling interaction with the customer over the simplest thing.

Camille


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> Thump thump thump! (The sound of my head hitting my desk.)
> 
> You know, that is another reason why the price of freelancing is so high. A huge part of the job consists of _dealing with the customer_. It is laborious, time consuming, aggravating.
> 
> ...


Actually, for me, that was one of the fun parts of the edit.  I love talking to my clients and explaining things.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Lynn McNamee said:


> Actually, for me, that was one of the fun parts of the edit.  I love talking to my clients and explaining things.


With developmental editing, that is definitely true. It can be a teaching job. But it's still a major part of the job, and must be included in the compensation.

Camille


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

I have read through this entire thread and have determined the following:

The OP's original concept was highly flawed.
Several characters lacked backstory.
The narrative hasn't really moved forward since page 2.
There have been several typo's and grammar issues reported.
We still haven't resolved who the villain is.

On that basis I think the entire thread needs an editor before it delivers on its original promise.

On a side note, to help things move forward with a side plot I took a look at KJ Colt's website and watched her far too adorable videos.

I now have a huge author crush on KJ Colt.

I expect this to end with a fight with another author taking their shirt off.

So romance writers of KBoards do something with this new development while us thriller writers concoct some outlandish plot that the OP is in fact some NSA stooge attempting to subvert the independent nature of editors and luring us in with the other of cheap editing services in order to subliminally deliver the government message that we are all to report to the nearest FEMA centre with a clean pair of underpants no later than 9pm or face termination.

This will hopefully rescue this from the slush pile.

Now Have at it. etc.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Josef Black said:


> I expect this to end with a fight with another author taking their shirt off.


Sigh. FINE.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

LeeBee said:


> Sigh. FINE.


Bookmarked this thread.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Sigh. FINE.


Sir, your tone suggests you wish to engage in fisticuffs over the internet crush rights of the author KJ Colt.

I demand satisfaction.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2014)

Josef Black said:


> We still haven't resolved who the villain is.


You must be new here. Most people generally assume I am the villain.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Josef Black said:


> Sir, your tone suggests you wish to engage in fisticuffs over the internet crush rights of the author KJ Colt.
> 
> I demand satisfaction.


Then I must refer you to Mick Jagger, as I cannot deliver the required satisfaction. Also, I am no sir, sir.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You must be new here. Most people generally assume I am the villain.


Not anymore. You've lost the aura. I think it's your new avvy. She looks like chocolate.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Josef Black said:


> I expect this to end with a fight with another author taking their shirt off.


Works for me....where's Russell Blake? Someone find him...quick!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Not anymore. You've lost the aura. I think it's your new avvy. She looks like chocolate.


Hmmm, maybe I should change over to my Sith Warrior instead of using my Sith Inquisitor.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You must be new here. Most people generally assume I am the villain.


Julie,
I find your new avatar...ummm...er... alarmingly interesting.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Thanks, Steven. Helpful. Those two hyphens especially. They haunt me.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

Josef Black said:


> I have read through this entire thread and have determined the following:
> 
> The OP's original concept was highly flawed.
> Several characters lacked backstory.
> ...


Quotes like this are why we need "like" buttons! Come onnnnn, moderators, give us a like button!


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

EelKat said:


> I mean, think about it, The average fee for a CHEAP editor of short stories is .04c per word or $200 per 5,000 words. (Note that editors charge way higher prices to edit short stories than novels, this is just standard industry practice, most editors will list "manuscript prices" and than also list "short story prices".) I've see prices as high as .4c which is $2,000 for a 5k word short story! $2,000 to edit a 5,000 word short story!
> 
> $200x52=$10,400 per year, if I only put out 1 story a week at 5,000 words per story or if I put out 2 or 4 stories a week, it could be as much as a whopping *$41,600 a year for editing.* And that's just the cheapest $200 for 5k words fee, some editors charge more, a lot more, and some of my stories a more than 5k words, could you imagine the totals if I was publishing a 15k to 30k short story each week? We are talking HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars, just for editing.
> 
> ...


Thanks to the people who stuck up for editors in this thread--I really appreciate it and I'm sure other editors do, too. In response to Eelkat, .4 cents a word (POINT four cents) is four tenths of a penny, and you'd multiply your word count by .004, so your hypothetical 5,000 words would run you $20, not $200.

The average project (80k - 100k words) probably takes between a week and a week and a half of time, and then a self-employed editor only "takes home" about 60% of that. The rest goes to business expenses, healthcare, and taxes. Also, figure in that we have no sick time, no vacation time. We have no benefits, no 401k, etc. If we're not working, we're not earning. If you think an editor is gouging you, you might take a minute and do the math as opposed to going with your knee-jerk reaction.

Posted with wishes for prosperity to all ;-)


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## WadeArnold (Sep 1, 2011)

Freddy Hansen said:


> Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


This is one of the most "classic" responses I've read in a while.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Phil, offering to do something for free does nothing to speak to your qualifications. Neither does how many titles you self published. There are erotica authors who self publish and self edit 30 or more titles a year, but that alone doesn't mean they are good or bad editors. Or editors at all. All it indicates is they are prolific.

One needs a bit more to go on than that.

Sent from my LG G2 Android Phone.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

jtbullet said:


> This is great advice. So now I am going to market myself as a cheap editor, and just leave the customer's books unchanged. BRILLIANCE!


Haha. I wouldn't pay you for that lol.

Usually when I send my book off to an editor, I know it's missing something but I just don't know how to fix it / have a hard time identifying exactly what I'm missing.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

CraigInOregon said:


> Phil, offering to do something for free does nothing to speak to your qualifications. ...


I thought he was saying that as proof that people weren't so keen on ultra cheap editing. (Or at least testing as to whether people meant it who said they were.)

Most of the editors I know do offer free samples of some sort. It's a natural thing to do, because it's the only way to find out of what the writer needs and the editor offers are compatible. And if the editor doesn't offer a free sample, then I think it's perfectly reasonable for an author to have a test chapter which they will hire the editor to do before committing to a larger fee/job.

A manager I did script reading for had a script had a mix of great and terrible elements in it, which she sent to everyone who applied to read for her. If you liked the things she liked about it, and spotted the weaknesses, she'd send you more scripts.

Camille


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## bjscript (Oct 26, 2011)

I read a script to evaluate the mechanics of the storytelling, but I don't offering editing. Every sentence is a choice. If every sentence is a bad choice, there's a massive amount of editing required.

If someone is confusing personal storytelling (designed to transport the author) with telling a story to an audience (story mechanics in play to transport the audience), editorial suggestions can come across as a personal attack.

A friend who does editing is going through this at the moment with an author. She has my sympathy.

Bill


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## Carol Davis (Dec 9, 2013)

bjscript said:


> If someone is confusing personal storytelling (designed to transport the author) with telling a story to an audience (story mechanics in play to transport the audience), editorial suggestions can come across as a personal attack.


I've come across this very thing so many times, Bill! When people (friends, co-workers, whatever) find out I'm a writer who's had a little bit of success, their next sentence is, "Will you read my story and tell me what you think?" Back in the day I misunderstood that as, "I want your honest opinion" when what they really want is to be patted on the head and told "This is awesome! Yay you!" When I gave suggestions like "Well, it might make your story stronger if you picked one POV and stuck with it" or "If you had this particular thing happen, it would bring everything full circle", I'd get either anger or tears.

Now, if somebody comes at me out of the blue asking me to read their stuff, I tell them, "Gosh, I'd love to, but I'm right up to my eyeballs with projects right now. But yay you!"

(I did get some inner satisfaction when a former boss -- a self-made millionaire -- asked me to read his book, as a fellow author, and give him notes. Which I did... only to find out he wanted a "Yay you!" complete with marching band, because he was the boss and I was a peon. So I went shuffling back to my tiny office thinking, "Well, you're all that and a bag of chips, but you're a terrible writer." And all the publishers he solicited agreed. He ended up having to pay to self-pub the thing.)


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## Catchy (Mar 3, 2012)

I have a few proofreaders and editors I refer my clients to, but I swear they're booked solid for like, life! I've been sending people to Mediabistro: https://www.mediabistro.com/fm/Default.asp?gdsr=1&vind=&vspc=&vloc=&exp1=0&exgp=1 You can usually confirm the background experience of the people listed here, but they're pricey (and people pay their prices). I sent one manuscript off to an editor on behalf of a client and the editor sent it back and refused to work on the project. She said it just wasn't "book material." She was completely right of course, but the author was hell bent on publishing it.


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## bjscript (Oct 26, 2011)

I thought I helped a writer once with a POV problem. She said she fixed it and asked me to recommend it to someone, which I did. And I got a twenty minute phone call that chewed off my arm, because she'd fixed nothing.

I think some people have to pay a lot of money for advice, or they don't value the advice that they get.

Bill


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## Jamie Maltman (Nov 1, 2013)

I'm another one of the authors here who has no desire to edit other authors' work. 

I don't mind editing my own with enough time and space (and will enjoy it at least some of the time, before I get the urge to stop for a while and go back to writing something new, to create space again to be useful editing again), and attacking it from different perspectives (passes in response to beta readers, passes for specific copyediting purposes like style sheet, timeline, consistency, repetition, word usage, and reading on different formats like in Scrivener, on Kindle, out loud for rhythm and pacing, out loud slower to make you find mistakes, etc).

But to do any of those different types of passes for someone else, even for money? Not my thing. Don't get me wrong, if I'm reading another author's work as a beta-reader for feedback, I'll definitely pick up some things along the way towards giving you my thoughts on what I enjoyed about the book, and responding to your questions. But I don't want to be your editor that is supposed to find all these things.

Hats off to the editors that enjoy it. I can only imagine how quickly your time can get eaten up. Having worked for professional services firms and seen the pressure (internal often) to eat time, it would be so hard when you have a good working relationship with an author and it starts taking you more time than you expected, and then far worse when the relationship is less happy with your client or they're already sounding irritated by your cost.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Hmmm, maybe I should change over to my Sith Warrior instead of using my Sith Inquisitor.


Off topic of the thread - but I must make an observation.

Jules - I love your posts and spirit and all - but I had a real wtf moment when I saw the new avatar. Go with the warrior.


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

Lorelei Logsdon said:


> $4,000? Wow, I need to restructure my rates, then. I *do* have 20 years of experience and a master's degree in English.
> 
> It would take me roughly five days to edit 73,000 words, and my cost would be around $650 (before my current discount for the month of April).
> 
> Editing most certainly does not make me rich, but I do it because I love it and because I'm good at it.


*she is*


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## TammySalyer (Mar 12, 2013)

B.T. Narro said:


> lol, nice  And that wasn't even on purpose.





Sandra K. Williams said:


> I know! Those wacky editors, thinking they should get professional wages for professional work!
> 
> The copyeditors are the _worst_. All they do is check spelling to make sure names of characters, places, events, and things are consistent and accurate (and waste time on the Internet looking up stuff the author didn't); ensure grammar is properly used according to voice and character; and query
> * questionable word usage
> ...


Haha! And amen.


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## C. Michael Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

These necro-bumps on really old threads always through me off. I'll be reading the whole thing all the while swearing to myself that I've read this post before and  then look at the dates posted. Instant facepalm.


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## C. Michael Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

Happened the other day and I saw I had posted something. I was like "I don't remember writing that." Then I saw the date. Sure enought, the thread had been Necro-Bumped. I think it was the horror tropes to avoid thread.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

It's nice that people are using the search function. They probably didn't notice the old date either, not sure if this forum warns that's it's old, some forum do that.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2015)

FH said:


> Fetches popcorn and takes front row seat.


Nah. That's okay. I've got a pole dancing class to attend. That's way more exciting than this thread.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2015)

1) This: I used to think I could make money writing novels, but I'm suddenly realizing that the real money is in editing.

This applies to everywhere where you can make money from product creation as opposed to product selling.

It applies across all markets.

People who sell components to phone makers sometimes make more money than phone makers. However, the #1 and #2 companies (i.e. the bestselling authors) are often able to make more than the service providers.

You have to decide what area you want to focus on. Do whatever makes you happy, without thinking about what ifs.

*****

2) The belief that we can go into another area and instantly master that, is a common misconception.

It's like Michael Jordan thinking he can go into baseball and suddenly become Mike Trout.

*

We used to work on the product creation side and thought salesmen and marketers were useless.

After we switched to selling things ourselves - suddenly our respect for salesmen went from zero to very high. It's an art in itself.

* It's very easy to THINK you could do a good job in A NEW area. It's called unconscious incompetence.
Easy to think you know everything because you actually know nothing.

It's quite hard to do a decent job. It's extremely hard to do a very good job.
The best editors will know just how much there is to learn and improve in editing/polishing a book and are worth their weight in gold.
A good editor will have skills, experience, passion specific to polishing a book and making it a masterpiece.

You can't just pick that up in a few years.

******

3) Generally, if you consider allocation of your resources across several areas i.e.

A) Creating the book. So tools like computer, monitor, keyboard, tablet etc.

B) Polishing the book. Editor, Cover Designer, etc.

C) Promoting (External Channels) - ads etc.

D) Promoting (Building your own channels) - email list etc.

E) Improving Skills - writing courses, etc.

in the long term, investing in polishing the book and building your own channels will ALWAYS be a better investment than anything else. That and writing a lot and improving your writing skills.

So looking at editing as just 'what's the price' might not be the best way to look at it.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes Alan.  You get a red message asking are you sure you want to post.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Arrrrgggggh!  Got me again. That's the second time in two days I've read a necro thread almost all the way through before realizing how old it was.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

I want to know who our necromancer is.


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## ccruz (Oct 11, 2014)

I was shocked at the prices too, which is why I started my business 3 years ago. I won't charge more because I'm still studying to complete my BA in English Literature. But I've acquired 3 years' worth of experience and have an extensive list of happy clients, so I think I'm a pretty good deal.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

As someone who's made a living as a freelancer, let me assure you that the market sorts these things out. If your services are worth $4,000 and you can develop business successfully, you'll routinely be able to pay your rent as an editor. If not, I'd consider relocating to a city that's chosen to house its homeless instead of ignoring them.

Honestly, the problem at that price point is just finding the work. There's nothing wrong with charging $4,000 for a week of work or even a _day_ of work if you can find people who value your time at that rate. Ask your worth. That's all any of us can fairly expect from capitalism.

P.S. Editing is hard, most people suck at it, and most editors are far cheaper.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> So what if they can only work about five hours a day before their brain is fried and they start to miss errors? That's 18,750 gods-touched words a day! And 93,750 gods-touched words in a week! It's outrageous to expect $500 for a week's work!


$500 a week equals $2,000 a month or $24,000 a year. That's not a very high wage, but it's still a near third above minimum wage and can be considered a wage good enough to feed and house yourself with. It's also within the region of what gets paid for similar professions (e.g. a librarian or a research assistant).


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

ccruz said:


> I was shocked at the prices too, which is why I started my business 3 years ago. I won't charge more because I'm still studying to complete my BA in English Literature. But I've acquired 3 years' worth of experience and have an extensive list of happy clients, so I think I'm a pretty good deal.


And when you've finished your BA, do you think you'll live off $350/65k? You're probably not that naive. Does that mean you'll raise your prices? If so, you should realize that there are a thousand more people like your old self waiting to take your place at $350/65k.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Nic said:


> $500 a week equals $2,000 a month or $24,000 a year. That's not a very high wage, but it's still a near third above minimum wage and can be considered a wage good enough to feed and house yourself with. It's also within the region of what gets paid for similar professions (e.g. a librarian or a research assistant).


I've never met anyone who could eat favourable comparisons with other professions.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Nic said:


> $500 a week equals $2,000 a month or $24,000 a year. That's not a very high wage, but it's still a near third above minimum wage and can be considered a wage good enough to feed and house yourself with. It's also within the region of what gets paid for similar professions (e.g. a librarian or a research assistant).


But out of that 24k/year, a freelancer must deduct money that people who work for others don't have to pay, such as self-employment taxes, website fees, and credit card processing fees.

Also, companies often offer other benefits to their employees, such as 401K matches, vacation, sick pay, and lower insurance premiums. Freelancers must provide all of that for themselves.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

Exactly, and there is a huge amount of non-billable work that goes into freelancing. For example, the free sample edits many editors provide. You can't simply take hourly rate X business hours in a year and use that to calculate a salary.


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## Laterz (Jul 8, 2015)

As the saying goes, "You get what you pay for." 

Having said that, I found a proofreader who charges way, way less than she should. I had to nudge nudge her to raise her rates because I felt so bad about "taking advantage" of her. She's extremely good and very fast, and after going through 4 other proofreaders, she's bar none the best I've ever used. 

My editor, on the other hand, regularly runs me in the 4-digits, but she's worth every cent of it.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Lynn McNamee said:


> But out of that 24k/year, a freelancer must deduct money that people who work for others don't have to pay, such as self-employment taxes, website fees, and credit card processing fees.
> 
> Also, companies often offer other benefits to their employees, such as 401K matches, vacation, sick pay, and lower insurance premiums. Freelancers must provide all of that for themselves.


For self-employment taxes, employed people pay income taxes, and anyone who has a bank account also needs to pay fees. If you're a zero-hour worker, there are few if any benefits, and our insurance premiums are the same across the board at that level. Healthcare is free anyway. At 24k you can be expected to get around.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

David S. said:


> That 24K per year assumes that there is always another editing job lined up starting Monday that took no time or effort to get, and that you not only always get paid, but paid on time.


Not everyone who is employed can expect to have their job the next week either, depending.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Nic said:


> For self-employment taxes, employed people pay income taxes, and anyone who has a bank account also needs to pay fees. If you're a zero-hour worker, there are few if any benefits, and our insurance premiums are the same across the board at that level. Healthcare is free anyway. At 24k you can be expected to get around.


Self-employed people pay those same income taxes employees do PLUS EXTRA TAXES, specifically for being self-employed. (It's a part of taxes that employees' employers pay for them--even in 0-benefit jobs.) Self-employed persons also pay the same fees you speak of *and* added ones that come from doing business.

Even when employers don't pay any part of insurance premiums, their employees still often have access to group rates that give a discount. Healthcare ain't free everywhere. It's actually bankrupted many a person in the US.

But all that said, I've known employers who didn't always pay their employees, or that broke employment law in how they paid them, or that randomly laid folks off without warning. Freelancing as a whole has always been more stable than employment, in my experience, but that's my experience. Yours may vary.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Carradee said:


> Healthcare ain't free everywhere.


It is where I live.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Nic said:


> $500 a week equals $2,000 a month or $24,000 a year. That's not a very high wage, but it's still a near third above minimum wage and can be considered a wage good enough to feed and house yourself with. It's also within the region of what gets paid for similar professions (e.g. a librarian or a research assistant).


You've forgotten to take out about 40% for self-employment taxes. And I hope you don't want time off, because as a freelancer, that's not paid. Oh, and you better not get sick. That's not only unpaid, but you don't have an employer paying for your health insurance. Also, don't plan on retiring at that wage, and pray that no emergency comes up, like car repairs, your AC going out, needing your septic tank emptied, roof repaired, none of that. Also, don't forget your overhead--credit card fees, software, computer, subscriptions to Chicago and Merriam-Webster, the list goes on. Your hypothetical $24,000 a year will probably wind up being closer to $12,000 a year take-home. But you can go ahead and work for that if you like. Because I know that everyone aspires to barely scrape by, right?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Nic said:


> It is where I live.


You obviously live somewhere other than the United States.

Now back to the topic of editing prices. I have seen some books that if one charged a dollar an error, they would make at least $25 a paragraph.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Nic said:


> For self-employment taxes, employed people pay income taxes, and anyone who has a bank account also needs to pay fees. If you're a zero-hour worker, there are few if any benefits, and our insurance premiums are the same across the board at that level. Healthcare is free anyway. At 24k you can be expected to get around.


If you're employed by a corporation, i.e. you get a W-2 at the end of the year, your employer pays a good portion of your employment taxes--self-employment taxes are a lot higher. Further, you might have to pay bank fees, but you don't have to pay 3% of your income to process your paycheck, do you? Freelancers do, at least if they want to take credit cards. And I don't know where you live that healthcare is free. It's not free here, not by a long stretch, and that's even with health insurance. Or maybe I can call the radiology company and tell them I don't actually owe them $800 for my MRI and X-rays last year.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

The prices that you are seeing are generic prices. I have seen countless first drafts from countless number of authors, and believe me... 75% of them are full of drivel and insanely difficult to read.

The truth is that most authors suck at writing and rely on their editors to smooth out their books so that they are at least somewhat readable.

I'm going to guess that your command at English and storytelling is already up to par. I'd recommend developing a relationship with an editor. They will see that your writing is good right away, and 1-2 weeks of editing will not be necessary. If a writer is good an editor can do a full edit in just a few days. But without having experience working with you, an editor is going to charge you full price.

If your eye is keen enough, don't worry about an editor. My last few releases have been self edited. I give my work about 2 weeks to sit on the shelf and then pick it up when it's not fresh in my brain. Then it's almost like I'm reading it with an outside eye.


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## Laterz (Jul 8, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> I think this one belongs in the "How do you stay positive?" thread.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2015)

If you want to become the best writer you can be you'll master the techniques of an editor. The idea that one cannot edit her own work is a myth; there are ways to do it completely and well.


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