# Shameless Plagiarism: Do Not Do This



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Another plagiarism scandal is rocking our little world. What on earth possesses people to do this?

Posting this as a warning in case you might be involved with Laura Harner in a set or some other business venture. Or, as the author of the linked article below says:



> If you're an author of paranormal, cowboy, SEAL, firefighter, highlander or motorcycle club romances, I urge you strongly to look through the extensive backlist of one Laura Harner, an unusually prolific author of M/M (male/male) romance. So prolific, in fact, that her GoodReads author page lists seventy-five releases since 2010.


http://jennytrout.com/?p=9685


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

The article pointed out that Harner probably picked M/F stories due to low crossover of readers and less chance of discovery. What scum.


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## FlowerShift (May 25, 2015)

Donna White Glaser said:


> The article pointed out that Harner probably picked M/F stories due to low crossover of readers and less chance of discovery. What scum.


Ugh! This is terrible. I hope that Karma kicks her in the butt big time


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bad.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Considering how much of a pain this can be for authors, much like the scammer who sent fake DMCA notices to people, how long before Amazon and other retailers start using some form of plagiarism checker for new submissions.

If it means longer wait times to get your work uploaded, it would be worth it to know that this sort of thing can't happen. It would also be nice if the retailers could take back any money paid out to these people.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Richard Murray said:


> Considering how much of a pain this can be for authors, much like the scammer who sent fake DMCA notices to people, how long before Amazon and other retailers start using some form of plagiarism checker for new submissions.
> 
> If it means longer wait times to get your work uploaded, it would be worth it to know that this sort of thing can't happen. It would also be nice if the retailers could take back any money paid out to these people.


Amazon has a plagiarism checker, but it doesn't seem to be a very smart one. A book seems to need to be a word-for-word match to get caught. Harner was rewording the material enough to slip through.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

If they have one then yes... it isn't very smart. I was just on the site linked to and read another entry where she has excerpts and the woman can't even make the excuse it's just coincidence and similar.. it is blatantly just the other womans book with some changes to try to hide the fact it was stolen. 

Utterly appalling.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Wow. Just wow. What is the point? Money, I guess? I mean, you certainly wouldn't feel any pride or accomplishment in receiving great reviews on writing that isn't even your own. Not to mention, rewording to the point that this author seems to have done takes a lot of work - I had to do this kind of thing with my own writing for some academic papers in college. Some classes had enough overlap that I had to write papers on the same topic three and four times, which made writing the same thing over and over without plagiarizing myself difficult. I HATED it. This took serious effort to do, effort she could have put into writing her own stories and words. You can see from the reworded bits that she isn't without her own skill.

She apparently took down ten or more novels after this hit, indicating those were also plagiarized work. She absolutely knew what she was doing, ripping off other people's hard work for her own profit. Absolutely disgusting.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

She'll probably claim she was writing an 'homage' to the original writers. It was a compliment! Really!


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Sadly, they do this because they know they can get away with it.

US Copyright law really needs to be updated so that it's not cost prohibitive to pursue this in court.

I wonder how Amazon will respond to this? Probably make life harder for the rest of us.


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## DiegoDinardi (Sep 25, 2015)

This is dreadful. I can't even begin to understand the mindset behind such a pathetic crime. Good thing this person got caught, and I hope they learn their lesson.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah, I don't understand what possesses people to do this, either. It seems like the plagiarists ALWAYS get caught, and can face some serious financial consequences for doing it. Why even bother? Surely there are less stupid ways to make a quick buck.


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

This "person" was allowed to get away with this, yet many of us have had to jump through hoops to prove we own the copyrights to our own work or provide a statement saying we are writing X book as this pen name. 

I hope they close her account for good! This is pathetic.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Revolting but not surprising.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Quiet said:


> Is Laura Harner a "person"? By that I mean, is she an actual individual or is she a company or a house name for ghostwritten material? There are a lot of companies (made up of one or more people) who regularly hire out for ghostwritten books. It's become very popular as a way to make money in the internet marketing industry. This is one of the hazards of that strategy. They get what they think is a quick, good ghostwriter and end up with plagiarized material.
> 
> I'm always glad when plagiarism like this come to light. The people doing it need to be outed as often as possible. It won't stop it, but the fewer people who get away with it, the more people will consider it too risky to try.


She's a member of RWA, people have posted pictures of her at booksignings and many people have met her at conferences, so a real person. Just really unethical.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Will only hurt her now. I feel partially sorry for her that she chose that route. Of course, more so for the real author.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Having read both of those samples - it would be nearly impossible for a computer to identify them as plagiarism. You actually have to think and see the patterns in the story to see how close they resemble one another. A  computer simply doesn't have that level of reasoning ability. Only a person would be able to pick this out. 

And even then.. I had to really read both samples carefully to catch it. It wasn't easy. That's probably how she got away with it for so long. 

Also, well Amazon rewards being prolific. More than anything else. If you publish a lot really quickly, the system will reward your handsomely for it. So of course this sort of things happens. People get frustrated, run out of ideas, and some will resort to this. That doesn't condone it - but the existing system certainly doesn't discourage it either. 

The more you write the more you make. So there will be some people who will risk it.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

If you publish a lot really quickly, the system will reward your handsomely for it.


How so?  Not trying to be difficult, just wrapping my head around this theory as a relative newbie.  cheers.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Andrew Murray said:


> If you publish a lot really quickly, the system will reward your handsomely for it.
> 
> How so? Not trying to be difficult, just wrapping my head around this theory as a relative newbie.  cheers.


Visibility. Plain and simple. It's why people bust their ass to publish a novel every month. The books you have in the system the more chances you have to get hits in searches, also boughts, best seller lists, etc.

Liliana Hart calls it her Nirvana technique: 
http://www.hughhowey.com/the-liliana-nirvana-technique/

She basically has a bunch of books ready to go and then releases them on a regular schedule. But that's probably veering off topic a little.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> She's a member of RWA, people have posted pictures of her at booksignings and many people have met her at conferences, so a real person. Just really unethical.


I'm stunned. She was a successful author with a serious following. How do you go to conferences, meet fans, and promote your work when you _know_ the hammer could fall at any second? Jeeezus, talk about living a lie.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Honestly, I don't feel sorry for her. I'm vindictive though.  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Frankly, I wish Amazon would pull all of her books and ban her from the site.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Monique said:


> Honestly, I don't feel sorry for her. I'm vindictive though.  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
> 
> Frankly, I wish Amazon would pull all of her books and ban her from the site.


I go further than that. The authors she stole from need to sue for all royalties and damages.

I reserve my sympathy for those that are in a bad situation not of their own making. I have zero sympathy for her, although I do feel sorry for her kids, if they're old enough to be mocked for their mother's horrible choices.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I go further than that. The authors she stole from need to sue for all royalties and damages.
> 
> I reserve my sympathy for those that are in a bad situation not of their own making. I have zero sympathy for her, although I do feel sorry for her kids, if they're old enough to be mocked for their mother's horrible choices.


Oh, absolutely they should. I meant in addition that she should be blocked from ever selling books on Amazon again. She's a repeat offender. She's earned all the bad she's got coming.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Personally I think she hired ghostwriters.. cheap ones at that. 

Which is why using ghostwriters for fiction is always a terrible idea. You have no clue where the material came from. 

Sympathy aside... I have an aversion to witch hunts. Yup it's terrible. Yup, she'll probably be roasted alive on every author forum there is. 

But I have no personal malice or axe to grind with her.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't think witch hunt means what you think it means.

I do find this sort of thing personally offensive and have an axe to grind with anyone who steals another's work.


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## Michael W Griffith (Sep 6, 2014)

I've always thought if people would work as hard at being legitimate as they do trying to cheat the system they'd do better anyway. Remarkable...


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Yeah, I read about that on RJ Scott's blog. :-( http://rjscottauthor.blogspot.com/2015/10/plagiarism-and-laura-harner.html


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

ebbrown said:


> I'm stunned. She was a successful author with a serious following. How do you go to conferences, meet fans, and promote your work when you _know_ the hammer could fall at any second? Jeeezus, talk about living a lie.


Actually, a novel about a plagiarist doing exactly this (gaining success and recognition, then being found out) could make for interesting reading...


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

People who steal and sell other people's work deserve to be prosecuted, in my opinion.  I think it ought to be an actual criminal offence, like it would be if they stole your wallet, because that's effectively what they've done.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Urban Mogul said:


> Personally I think she hired ghostwriters.. cheap ones at that.
> 
> Which is why using ghostwriters for fiction is always a terrible idea. You have no clue where the material came from.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why anyone would want to use ghostwriters for fiction. For me, the whole point of writing and publishing is for others to read and enjoy what I worked so hard to create. Ghostwriters would completely negate that.

Also, it's not a witch hunt when the person actually committed a crime. She stole someone else's work and put her own name on it. It is worse than stealing a material object, which can be insured/replaced. This was stealing, and while it might be difficult to convict her of that, whatever negative fallout she experiences from it is the consequence to her actions, and possibly one of the only real ones she will face.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Does she have a blog or twitter? Perhaps she DID hire a ghost writer, ala Patterson, and it went horribly wrong...I think she has a right to reply and explain herself before we all burn her at the stake...is she has indeed amassed a big following, then something doesn't add up.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

BTW, I don`t understand ghostwriters from an artistic stand point but I do from a business side...Patterson does it and is well respected by his fans. Not that I`d do it myself, the joy for me is creation.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

What I read looked like scratching the serial numbers off which is very often ghost writing. And there is a very fine line between that and plagiarism. There is always the trend of let's copy what's popular right now. How many Mary Sue virgins joined their kinky billionaire CEO bosses in a non-disclosure type dom/sub relationship after 50 Shades of Gray burst out? How many commonalities were there between Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray? Book selling has ALWAYS been about what's hot right now and what can we do to duplicate it to give the readers more of what they want?

Why would a successful author hire a ghostwriter? Many reasons. And I find the original link to have tons of things crossed out and new facts added so I am hesitant to jump all over this with "BURN THE WITCH." If the author knowingly took bestselling books and did this herself, yes, that is something that she should pay handsomely for doing. If she purchased ghost-written material and didn't know the material was lifted from another book, as she herself may not even read that genre, then I dearly hope she has business insurance. Either way, who knows what the full details are . . . but so far it looks like something really awful has happened to make a ton of headaches for a bunch of authors. I hope the situation is resolved for everyone involved and that this doesn't hurt more authors by making it more difficult to publish.

As fas as being shocked or amazed, I'm not. Stealing art and rebranding it to make a buck is as old as dirt, and it's not just self-publishers that do it.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

She has a website and people have started commenting there asking what is going on and attacking her. 

Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'd like to know it if was her or she hired ghostwriters. I can't see anyone doing this knowingly and attending conferences etc... far too visible.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> What I read looked like scratching the serial numbers off which is very often ghost writing. And there is a very fine line between that and plagiarism. There is always the trend of let's copy what's popular right now. How many Mary Sue virgins joined their kinky billionaire CEO bosses in a non-disclosure type dom/sub relationship after 50 Shades of Gray burst out? How many commonalities were there between Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray? Book selling has ALWAYS been about what's hot right now and what can we do to duplicate it to give the readers more of what they want?
> 
> Why would a successful author hire a ghostwriter? Many reasons. And I find the original link to have tons of things crossed out and new facts added so I am hesitant to jump all over this with "BURN THE WITCH." If the author knowingly took bestselling books and did this herself, yes, that is something that she should pay handsomely for doing. If she purchased ghost-written material and didn't know the material was lifted from another book, as she herself may not even read that genre, then I dearly hope she has business insurance. Either way, who knows what the full details are . . . but so far it looks like something really awful has happened to make a ton of headaches for a bunch of authors. I hope the situation is resolved for everyone involved and that this doesn't hurt more authors by making it more difficult to publish.
> 
> As fas as being shocked or amazed, I'm not. Stealing art and rebranding it to make a buck is as old as dirt, and it's not just self-publishers that do it.


On the website the OP linked to, the next post has some other samples. One of them shows just how alike these are. From the examples she pulled up it is very much a case of copied work with some stuff changed.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Richard Murray said:


> She has a website and people have started commenting there asking what is going on and attacking her.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'd like to know it if was her or she hired ghostwriters. I can't see anyone doing this knowingly and attending conferences etc... far too visible.


I agree, it seems too weird to make yourself so public. I think a ghost writing business experiment went wrong. By the way, how you doing brother? Us Murrays should stick together!


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Carews :

“Is that the woman Killer’s friend wants us to kidnap?”

Steele glanced in the direction Shock was looking. 

Hamers:

“Is that the dude Butcher’s friend wants us to snatch?”

Deuce glanced in the direction Gunny was staring. 

so yeah... not just coincidence.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Andrew Murray said:


> Does she have a blog or twitter? Perhaps she DID hire a ghost writer, ala Patterson, and it went horribly wrong...I think she has a right to reply and explain herself before we all burn her at the stake...is she has indeed amassed a big following, then something doesn't add up.


Well, IF she hired ghostwriters who did this, then they should absolutely be the ones held responsible/persecuted. I find that very unlikely. How many people hire ghostwriters to write fiction? How is that even cost feasible? And even if she had, how many professional ghostwriters would be stupid enough to try to pass off published work as their own? They likely wouldn't stay in business very long. In that unlikely event, you would think she would definitely be making some kind of formal statement to that effect, yet so far, she has apparently said nothing, while taking down several of her books (presumably to avoid an even bigger fallout).

I have been around long enough that I have seen this kind of thing happen before, even among "name" authors. (The whole Janet Dailey plagiarizing Nora Roberts scenario comes to mind.) Yes, people really do this. Yes, it is horrible, and yes, they deserve to be called on it. My point is, I don't think people are rushing to persecute her in an absence of evidence. I think people are calling it like the evidence portrays, and honestly, there is no "excuse" that justifies this, ever.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Andrew Murray said:


> I agree, it seems too weird to make yourself so public. I think a ghost writing business experiment went wrong. By the way, how you doing brother? Us Murrays should stick together!


Murrays of the world unite!


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> What I read looked like scratching the serial numbers off which is very often ghost writing. And there is a very fine line between that and plagiarism. There is always the trend of let's copy what's popular right now. How many Mary Sue virgins joined their kinky billionaire CEO bosses in a non-disclosure type dom/sub relationship after 50 Shades of Gray burst out? How many commonalities were there between Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray? Book selling has ALWAYS been about what's hot right now and what can we do to duplicate it to give the readers more of what they want?
> 
> Why would a successful author hire a ghostwriter? Many reasons. And I find the original link to have tons of things crossed out and new facts added so I am hesitant to jump all over this with "BURN THE WITCH." If the author knowingly took bestselling books and did this herself, yes, that is something that she should pay handsomely for doing. If she purchased ghost-written material and didn't know the material was lifted from another book, as she herself may not even read that genre, then I dearly hope she has business insurance. Either way, who knows what the full details are . . . but so far it looks like something really awful has happened to make a ton of headaches for a bunch of authors. I hope the situation is resolved for everyone involved and that this doesn't hurt more authors by making it more difficult to publish.
> 
> As fas as being shocked or amazed, I'm not. Stealing art and rebranding it to make a buck is as old as dirt, and it's not just self-publishers that do it.


It wasn't just a case of scratching off the serial numbers. Whole sentences/paragraphs/pages were lifted, with just enough reworded to keep a turnitin type scan from catching it. I think cases like the 50 Shades fanficcing of Twilight and getting published has given people a false sense that plagiarism is okay. The 50 Shades debate is neither here nor there. There is a vast difference between writing your own fanfic in your own words, and stealing someone else's words. This was no "I'm going to write a Billionaire romance just like this author's because it is popular". This was flat out words on the page, clearly copied.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Richard Murray said:


> Murrays of the world unite!


BOOM!

BTW, I am not justifying her, I am playing devils advocate. If she remains silent then we can deduce her guilt...maybe she has a reason along the ghost writing angle?...if she has and comes clean then she can remove those books at least. We dont know the FULL facts yet. I hope this thread remains open so lets not argue. I hope the truth reveals itself...I do admit it looks really bad though. Is this the KU2 fallout? Again...DEVILS ADVOCATE guys!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

She's responsible for publishing what any alleged ghost writer gave her. They are both guilty. 

The crime was committed. That much is plainly clear. Any "excuse" can't change that.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

I get it Monique, it`s wrong, very wrong...if someone stole my book I`d be spitting feathers, not like its making me a fortune though. I`d still like to KNOW the whys though.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Andrew Murray said:


> BOOM!
> 
> BTW, I am not justifying her, I am playing devils advocate. If she remains silent then we can deduce her guilt...maybe she has a reason along the ghost writing angle?...if she has and comes clean then she can remove those books at least. We dont know the FULL facts yet. I hope this thread remains open so lets not argue. I hope the truth reveals itself...I do admit it looks really bad though. Is this the KU2 fallout? Again...DEVILS ADVOCATE guys!


Nothing wrong with playing devils advocate, I love to play that role because I truly do love to... well, just annoy people. So I will take the opposite side if it is more entertaining. (I'm a terrible person I know.)

This could be a ghostwriting issue and the way she promoted / attended conventions etc aren't the behaviour of someone who knows they stole anothers work. Either way, she needs to get ahead of this and do more than just remove a load of books.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Andrew Murray said:


> I get it Monique, it`s wrong, very wrong...if someone stole my book I`d be spitting feathers, not like its making me a fortune though. I`d still like to KNOW the whys though.


I want to know, too. It defies logic really. But she's ultimately responsible for what happened no matter how it got there.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

True Richard.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

This story actually "broke" on Wed. How long a silence do you require?


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

I just ate one slice of pizza with a cup of tea.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Andrew Murray said:


> I just ate one slice of pizza with a cup of tea.


I don't get it. What?


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> This story actually "broke" on Wed. How long a silence do you require?


Well, I only found out about it now...I apologise for not being correctly up to date. I was serving beer to the Chinese President down the pub.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Andrew Murray said:


> Well, I only found out about it now...I apologise for not being correctly up to date. I was serving beer to the Chinese President down the pub.


No worries. I know it's just getting here now, but on other loops it's been discussed for a while now, and no announcement, apology or otherwise, has been forthcoming.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

Wow...how do people think (1) this is okay, and (2) they'll actually get away with it?


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Monique said:


> I don't get it. What?


#breakingthetensionwitharandomfactoidtoavoidthreadlock


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Andrew Murray said:


> #breakingthetensionwitharandomfactoidtoavoidthreadlock


#no


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

North Star Plotting said:


> Wow...how do people think (1) this is okay, and (2) they'll actually get away with it?


1) It`s not but greed warps people 2) some actually do yeah bonus) I am not entirely convinced this is 100 percent malicious...if you plug yourself in the real world ( back to my ghost writing thing ) bonus 2) I may be totally wrong and she is just wicked as the wicked witch from the west


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

Monique said:


> #no


#touche


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I want to be clear - most ghostwriters are honest. I've ghostwritten articles and blogs for money. Most of my clients were busy folks running small businesses. They didn't have the time or training to write content on top of everything else. 

However, many people new to self-publishing are hiring cheap fiction ghostwriters they find on the web. These people offer to write full novels for tiny sums of money. You can bet that the vast majority of this content is stolen from another author. 

And that's the point of mentioning this. If YOU publish something a ghostwriter gives you then YOU are legally responsible for it. It's going to be your ass on the line if that work is plagiarized.  I don't think anyone is excusing her. People are taking the time to point out how much trouble hiring a cheap ghostwriter can get you into. 

Whether or not she hired someone or did it herself, she's still in a lot of trouble.  Also, there's more pressure to write longer now. It's going to push some people into doing the wrong thing. 

I'm willing to bet we're going to see more of this. The money is just too tempting... and there's a lot of money to be made.


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## Harvey Click (Oct 28, 2013)

Monique said:


> I don't think witch hunt means what you think it means.
> 
> I do find this sort of thing personally offensive and have an axe to grind with anyone who steals another's work.


I agree 100%. Can't understand why any writer would have any sympathy for a plagiarist. People who steal other people's hard work don't deserve sympathy. She is culpable even if she was hiring a cheap "ghostwriter" without making sure the material wasn't plagiarized.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

North Star Plotting said:


> Wow...how do people think (1) this is okay, and (2) they'll actually get away with it?


1. They know it isn't okay, they just don't care

2. For every one that gets caught, there are probably dozens more that no one ever knows about. I've stumbled across people republishing old, forgotten novels from the 1800s as their own work. I've had my own work plagiarized in almost the same way as what has been described in this topic. It's rampant through KDP.

3. Don't expect Amazon to care. They collect money either way. The plagiarist sells books, Amazon gets paid. Someone catches the plagiarist and Amazon claws back some of the earnings, Amazon gets paid _even more_, because they keep all the money. It doesn't get refunded to the customers and it doesn't go to the legitimate author. So Amazon has absolutely no incentive to spend a bunch of money fighting plagiarism. You're on your own.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

KelliWolfe said:


> Don't expect Amazon to care. They collect money either way. The plagiarist sells books, Amazon gets paid. Someone catches the plagiarist and Amazon claws back some of the earnings, Amazon gets paid _even more_, because they keep all the money. It doesn't get refunded to the customers and it doesn't go to the legitimate author. So Amazon has absolutely no incentive to spend a bunch of money fighting plagiarism. You're on your own.


Those are very good, and sad, points. It's a win-win for Amazon, like most things.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2015)

North Star Plotting said:


> Those are very good, and sad, points. It's a win-win for Amazon, like most things.


Unfortunately true. The only positive is readers soon latch on, let`s not patronize the reader by thinking they won`t, and the good authentic books will rise above.
Have a good weekend everyone.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

If this woman has taken other writers' books and altered them herself, she has a world of shame coming her way and I have zero sympathy.

If she has employed ghost writers and _they_ have taken and altered other writers' work, at best it seems that she has been cavalier in her approach to whom she has employed to be her ghost writers. In that case, I have a smidgeon of sympathy, but it is fleeting.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Is there any real claim from the plagiarizer that she used a ghostwriter or is that just a "what if" that someone threw out there?


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Donna White Glaser said:


> Is there any real claim from the plagiarizer that she used a ghostwriter or is that just a "what if" that someone threw out there?


That is a what if. The plagiarizer has made no comment at all.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Sam Kates said:


> If this woman has taken other writers' books and altered them herself, she has a world of shame coming her way and I have zero sympathy.
> 
> If she has employed ghost writers and _they_ have taken and altered other writers' work, at best it seems that she has been cavalier in her approach to whom she has employed to be her ghost writers. In that case, I have a smidgeon of sympathy, but it is fleeting.


That's where I am. And I do NOT think plagiarizing is ok. But . . . and this is where things get VERY murky . . . copyright means very different things in different countries. The only safe way to be absolutely sure you have the rights to publish your work is to write them yourself. I do believe someone took Book A and went line by line to change it to publish it as Book B with nothing substantial changing but wordsmithing. I do believe that to be wrong. I also think depending on the circumstances of who did that and how, it can be very difficult to take to court and to win damages and then actually get them paid.

That said, this woman went to conferences and had a very public persona. I cannot imagine she would not know you couldn't do that being in RWA etc. I COULD see her hiring ghost writers to save herself time and to put her energies into more executive functions of the publishing business. This happens sometimes with other series and well-known authors . . . the original author doesn't want to write anymore and the publisher hires ghost writers to keep writing with the author getting a cut. Sometimes it's all transparent, like Kindle Worlds. Sometimes it's not, like Goosebumps. So IF this is a case of hiring ghostwriters that broke the rules, like other point out, these kinds of "rewrites" that are not rewrites at all won't pop in a plaigarism scan, assuming other indie books are even scanned in the database it's checked against (probably not).

Therefore, IF you hire ghostwriters, because you are focusing more on being the publisher part, not the author part, it is critical you make sure you are hiring one who will play within the rules of our country and all countries you will be publishing in. And have insurance.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2015)

I feel dirty. Why do I love writing but hate the shady business of it? I wish the human race would stop trying to screw each other for a fast buck. May as well rob a bank. 
Interesting blog, dont know if this has been posted but it kinda echos my sentiments:
http://renaekaye.weebly.com/renae-blogs/i-feel-sorry-for-laura-harner

Ta ta for now. I`m off to write my OWN stories. And put the lottery on.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> No worries. I know it's just getting here now, but on other loops it's been discussed for a while now, and no announcement, apology or otherwise, has been forthcoming.


Not only this, but it appears at least two other authors' series may have had the same thing happen to them by the same perp. L. H. Has been taking down books, and blog posts where she referred to the books. No remorse. Frankly, I'm surprised she isn't hiring her own lawyer and shutting up about it.

She can get jail time (up to five years) and fined for 250K according to another source.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

There are two options and two responses:

1. If this person actually took another author's book and changed the names, changed the locations and did a bit of wordsmithing, then published it as her own, she has a very questionable moral compass. I would suspect she is a sociopath, who only cares about breaking the rules if she gets caught. They think the rules do not apply to them. Non-sociopaths would never consider doing this. Their moral compass is intact. 

I don't feel the least bit sorry for this person, if this is what she did. I hope she gets what's coming to her in terms of the law.

2. If she hired a ghost writer who did this, she is  a poor business person and should have run the book through a plagiarism checker at the minimum. If it were me and I hired a ghost writer who did this, I'd be screaming it at the top of my lungs to clear myself of the plagiarism and acknowledge that I had made a very poor business decision. 

If this was the case, I hope she learns her lesson. At best, she will clean up her business practices, and move on. At worst, her rep will suffer and there is no telling if she can recover.

Since all we have heard is crickets, I suspect it is the former.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Sela said:


> There are two options and two responses:
> 
> 1. If this person actually took another author's book and changed the names, changed the locations and did a bit of wordsmithing, then published it as her own, she has a very questionable moral compass. I would suspect she is a sociopath, who only cares about breaking the rules if she gets caught. They think the rules do not apply to them. Non-sociopaths would never consider doing this. Their moral compass is intact.
> 
> ...


I don't know. I hire translators for my books. I can't read the other language. I do use a double-blind system of two translation teams, two cold readers who are fluent in that language. It is HIGHLY unlikely one or all would conspire to rip me off by using a Google Translate translation or plagiarizing another book and passing it off as translation of my work. But I don't really know, know for sure and I'm not going to learn the other language just to check. Let's say I was somehow caught up in a scandal where my translation teams pulled the wool over my eyes, I wouldn't be quick to publicly admit I had been so stupid (especially as there is little to gain from that), would be leery that anything I said about the situation could make the situation worse, and also know that by saying nothing publicly eventually the PR fallout would die down. But if I release a statement, or comment, I absolutely ENSURE the story about my screwup, and a HUGE one at that with major legal ramifications, will stay buzzing for at least another week possibly longer and appeal to a larger media publication because there is a "Story" now between what's been accused and what does the accused have to say for themselves?


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

Sela said:


> There are two options and two responses:
> 
> 1. If this person actually took another author's book and changed the names, changed the locations and did a bit of wordsmithing, then published it as her own, she has a very questionable moral compass. I would suspect she is a sociopath, who only cares about breaking the rules if she gets caught. They think the rules do not apply to them. Non-sociopaths would never consider doing this. Their moral compass is intact.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree that the silence is deafening, and likely the largest clue to which scenario is true. That said, I think the wording was changed enough that a computer would have a harder time catching it. Phrases and sentences have to match exactly to get flagged. IDK, I think this kind of plagiarism almost takes a human eye to catch definitively.

Still, I don't hold with the ghost writer theory. Like you, I'd be shouting from the rafters, and I'd have my own lawyer by now. Then again, I'd never hire a ghost writer to begin with. WTH is the point of being a writer if you aren't the one writing?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I find the plagiarizing-ghostwriter theory pretty attractive.

When I tracked down my DMCA scammer earlier this year, the trail led me to a certain internet marketing forum. The scammer had been offering ghostwritten erotica there for ridiculously low prices. Like, $50 for a 5,000-word story, or some such. Everyone there was furious at him because it was all plagiarized -- material plucked out of already published works and changed just enough to get through KDP's plagiarism check. So, plagiarizing ghostwriters are definitely out there.

I'm thinking it goes like this: your writing career is going pretty well, but you feel you could be doing so much better if you could just produce work more quickly. So, you look into hiring a ghostwriter. But the good ones are asking, you know, a reasonable price for a ghostwritten novel. I'm not sure what that would be, but I'm betting it's north of $10,000. Any less, and the ghostwriter might as well sell it themselves and make three times that much. Well, you just can't bear to spend $10,000, so your plan seems destined for the trashbin. 

But then this one person shows up, someone who'll do it for $5,000. Their work seems really good. You're suspicious, of course, but this person explains they live in a foreign country, where the cost of living is low. Five grand will go a very long way, there. They can live off that for a year! Put their daughter through school! Get that operation for their Mom! You hesitate. They admit they've fallen on hard times and really, really need this work. So how about $2,000? And you really, really want it to be okay. So you decide it is. And what do you know? It works great. So you keep right on doing it.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I don't think we can accurately diagnose someone as a sociopath via the Internet. The only thing we know for sure is that she's a plagiarist, either intentionally or by accident. 

Her silence could be because she got caught plagiarizing. It also could be because her ghostwriter's plagiarism exposed her as not being the author of the books she has claimed, in person, to have written. None of us knows. I don't particularly care which it is, but I think one is as likely as the other. In fact, I lean toward the ghostwriter since she made personal appearances.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> I don't know that this is technically true. I don't think we can call this woman a sociopath, at least not in any sort of clinical sense. I don't support her behavior, and the behavior itself could probably even be classified as sociopathic behavior. But that doesn't make her a sociopath. We don't know her circumstances. Maybe she dug a hole for herself, and maybe she got in too deep with no way out. Maybe she needed money for some external factor in her life, and this was the only way should could conceive of getting it. We don't know. I certainly don't condone her behavior, not one little bit. But sociopathy is a whole other category made up of a long list of comorbid symptoms. And let's be honest: there are plenty of non-sociopathic people out there who have done reprehensible deeds. The woman who shoots her husband when she finds him in bed with his secretary isn't a sociopath. Her moral compass is intact. But she lost it for a long enough moment to pull a trigger. I just think we should be careful throwing around loaded terms like sociopath in a case like this.
> 
> And you very well could be write. This woman might tick of every box on the DSM-V checklist for an ASPD diagnosis.
> 
> And also to be clear, I'm not calling you out, Sela. I enjoy reading your posts. I think you have a ton of wonderful information to provide. Just wanted to say that I'm not picking a fight or anything. It's just me being a word nerd and finding an opportunity to dust off the psychology minor in my undergrad degree that rarely gets to see the light of day.


This is really an esoteric argument, but I tend to enjoy those. 

I have a minor in abnormal psych (which qualifies me for exactly nothing  ) and worked for a while in a special program with preschool children who were abused and neglected, and for a while with adults with brain damage or who were in care due to mental illness. I've seen sociopathy (antisocial personality disorder) and its precursors up close and personal, both in those programs and in everyday life. I know very well that it's not proper to diagnose someone as a sociopath over the internet, but that admonishment is for psychiatrists and psychologists and is about best professional practice etc. The rest of us non-professionals have to figure out how to spot sociopaths in our everyday life and learn how to deal with them. It isn't easy, and the best hope is to avoid them completely. Where they go, human misery follows. The really sad thing is that most likely, they are just broken and won't / can't be fixed. When treated, they tend to get even better at what they do.

While it's true that there is nothing new under the sun, and that we are all influenced by everything we read, see and hear, and often we incorporate tropes and ideas we've absorbed in our own reading, or write in hot trends, or in the same vein as certain successful books, most of us would _never_ contemplate taking someone else's work and doing what happened in this case - changing names, places, and a few phrases and publishing it as our own work. This was not just some temporary lapse in judgement, or due to ignorance, nor do I suspect an act of desperation. This is something far more methodical and conscious. For someone to do this is evidence to me that their moral compass is flawed and probably broken. That's sociopathy / APD. What they were doing was attempting to get around the plagiarism checker so it speaks to me of clear intent to defraud and consciousness of what plagiarism is and what intellectual property is and how to get around them for profit.

Sociopaths come in a range of degrees, a spectrum, but what is common is that they push past the moral boundaries most of us stay within. While most of us tell a little white lie now and then, mostly to spare other peoples feelings or save face, the sociopath is a compulsive liar and cheat, who doesn't care if they hurt others because others are mere objects in their field of vision to be manipulated and used. If caught, they aren't upset that they have done a bad thing. They are upset that they were caught and will face consequences and usually will deny, create fantastical excuses, or try to evoke sympathy for their plight, shift blame, etc.

You can spot a sociopath by their response to being caught: the non-sociopath, when caught, will feel bad for breaking the law and hurting the other person. The sociopath will feel terrible that they are now being treated so badly by everyone and focus on their own pain and feelings.

They're different from people who do horrible things in a fit of passion or out of sheer desperation.

No one can convince me that this case of plagiarism was done out of desperation. If you are desperate, there are many much easier ways of making money. This was fully-conscious self-aware cheating, fraud, stealing -- plain and simple.

The reason I belabour this is because I see a lot of people thinking they can shame this person and people like the person and somehow show them that what they did was very bad. I've watched people in long threads on Facebook and forums so shocked that a person could do such a terrible thing, how they should be ashamed of themselves, how could they do this, etc. I've been around for several cases of plagiarism in the indie world and have watched with interest how readers and other authors respond.

Shaming and educating is not going to work IMO. The perpetrators really don't have the ability to internalize morals and ethics. It's like they are trapped in the lowest level of moral development. Kohlberg's Pre-conventional. It's all about getting away with stuff, not getting caught, and focused on their own needs. Public shaming is for people who can be influenced by shame. Sociopaths aren't. They do not develop a moral compass because they can't.

Interesting topic! I actually have a sociopathic character and have done a lot of research on this for a book I've been writing like forever.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

At this point, I think it's safe to say she ripped off all of 'her' books from other authors. 
This just isn't something you do 'once or twice', it's something you do all the time. Maybe she did write a couple of her books herself, back in the beginning, but obviously she felt she could do this, and would never be caught, because the people who read M/M don't read M/F, right?

Let's not be making any excuses for her, she's a criminal who stole other people's hard work and profited off of it.

I hope her fans move on to the people who actually wrote the books that they liked.
I hope the authors she ripped off recover all of the money they lost to her.
I hope she never gets published anywhere ever again.
She's a crook.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2015)

Ok, not trying to beat a dead horse here. But I woke this morning and checked her website and social media, to see if some announcement or explanation was made. I have changed my mind on feeling sorry for her, 100 percent. She should walk away now and get a nine to five. Why? Well I found comments on her website that ousted her have been DELETED but good ones left. Her most recent FB posts have been DELETED to rid of the negative ones. It`s painfully obvious that this woman is hiding from the facts and continuing, without dealing with the scandal, to publish and profit. No more devils advocate from me. I am quite disgusted now. No attempt at damage limitation at all.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

JL - I find the discussion of sociopathy fascinating as well and it's something I read heavily on, especially since I've started writing thrillers. But there is information floating around privately among authors that is not presented here. That information puts me firmly in Sela's camp. Sitting in a chair eating popcorn, as a matter of fact. And I don't think this was about money. I think it was about attention, hence all the public appearances.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Sela said:


> Interesting topic! I actually have a sociopathic character and have done a lot of research on this for a book I've been writing like forever.


At first sight my reaction was, "That's way too much self-disclosure." Then I realised you were referring to a character in one of your books...


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Andrew Murray said:


> Ok, not trying to beat a dead horse here. But I woke this morning and checked her website and social media, to see if some announcement or explanation was made. I have changed my mind on feeling sorry for her, 100 percent. She should walk away now and get a nine to five. Why? Well I found comments on her website that ousted her have been DELETED but good ones left. Her most recent FB posts have been DELETED to rid of the negative ones. It`s painfully obvious that this woman is hiding from the facts and continuing, without dealing with the scandal, to publish and profit. No more devils advocate from me. I am quite disgusted now. No attempt at damage limitation at all.


I don't have a dog in this hunt because I'm too busy writing my own books from scratch, but this shifted it right into reprehensible.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

New pen name, new EIN, and back in business before the month is out.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I find the plagiarizing-ghostwriter theory pretty attractive.





she-la-ti-da said:


> New pen name, new EIN, and back in business before the month is out.


She used her real name, and has pictures of herself up signing books including the alleged (and since some pages are 85% identical...) plagiarized one. The one called Coming Home Texas.







,

She was/is? a member of the RWA, NINC, and several other author groups, so her picture is everywhere. Well-known book reviewers and authors in her genres know her. Google sucks as a search engine as there is more proof out there if you know how/where to look.

This was not a case of using a ghost writer. More details may be made public in the future, but those who know are leaving it up to the authors' (yes, I said authors) who have been plagiarized and their attorney(s) before letting all the proof into the more public arena. This picture was taken at the #GRL2015 conference October 15-18, 2015.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2015)

I guess it`s a delicate legal case for those authors, so I understand it not getting mainstream book news exposure until cases have been filled etc...I respect that for the damaged authors.
This is one very silly woman. Like wearing no mask to a bank robbery. Gosh, what drama!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I find this so upsetting because I think this is a subconscious fear all authors have; as if having to be your own publisher isn't work enough, without worrying about having to take someone to court for stealing your work. 

Supposedly (I'm not a lawyer) willful infringement on copyright carries a penalty of up to five years, and a huge six figure fine. I pray they throw the book at her as I do not want other scammers thinking this is ever worth doing, and if they see what happens to her, they might just decide there are easier ways to make money.


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## E.R.Baine (Mar 17, 2013)

> The more you write the more you make. So there will be some people who will risk it.


Harner seems more like a con-artist than an actual writer trying to pass off other people's work as her own.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2015)

Lisa Grace said:


> I find this so upsetting because I think this is a subconscious fear all authors have; as if having to be your own publisher isn't work enough, without worrying about having to take someone to court for stealing your work.
> 
> Supposedly (I'm not a lawyer) willful infringement on copyright carries a penalty of up to five years, and a huge six figure fine. I pray they throw the book at her as I do not want other scammers thinking this is ever worth doing, and if they see what happens to her, they might just decide their are easier ways to make money.


Indeed, we need a solid deterrent. I did carry a touch of sympathy yesterday, thinking she must have been desperate or something, but with no explanation, and the culling of her site and fb posts which called her out, I can see she is a very crafty woman. And very stupid making herself so public. Live a lie and it will find you out in the end. It`s better to honestly fail then to deceitfully succeed.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> JL - I find the discussion of sociopathy fascinating as well and it's something I read heavily on, especially since I've started writing thrillers. But there is information floating around privately among authors that is not presented here. That information puts me firmly in Sela's camp. Sitting in a chair eating popcorn, as a matter of fact. And I don't think this was about money. I think it was about attention, hence all the public appearances.


Agreed. She put her face out there in the public eye. It's amazing how many groups she belongs to, how many reviewers she's reached out to, and how many public appearances she's done. She wanted the attention.

Frankly, she is a fantastic marketeer, and if she had turned her attention to promoting or marketing the books she actually had written, or promoted other authors for a living, she could have made a great living.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

I recall reading her Highland Shift series and feeling like I had heard the story before. As I was reading, I thought it was a Catherine Bybee novel (who I adore). I brushed it off at the time because I was on a kick and had been reading every bit of Highlander romance I could get my hands on. I figured it was just me.  Does anyone know if that series is in question?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Sam Kates said:


> At first sight my reaction was, "That's way too much self-disclosure." Then I realised you were referring to a character in one of your books...


LOL!

Yeah, I guess I should have worded that a little better.  We authors tend feel a certain possession of our characters, and hopefully, not the other way around.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

As an author who was accused of plagiarism, wrongly i might add. (Luckily i had proof, thank the Lord for email recording ) I usually stay away from these kind of debates. However after reading Jenny Trouts blog, the similarities are uncanny. I hope the REAL author gets the justice she deserves. The similarities are hard to miss but is it the whole book thats the same or just these passages? No excuse either way. 
Hopefully Laura Harner learns her lesson and learns that its somebody elses livelihood she's basically stealing from. 
Lets be careful not to turn this into some kind of witch hunt though. Naming and shaming is the right course of action but there are some individuals out there that can take it a bit too far. (I'm not suggesting anyone in this forum is but we all know how the internet is)


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> 3. Don't expect Amazon to care. They collect money either way. The plagiarist sells books, Amazon gets paid. Someone catches the plagiarist and Amazon claws back some of the earnings, Amazon gets paid _even more_, because they keep all the money. It doesn't get refunded to the customers and it doesn't go to the legitimate author. So Amazon has absolutely no incentive to spend a bunch of money fighting plagiarism. You're on your own.


I'm not convinced they don't care at all, because it's a poor customer experience if you discover books you've bought are plagiarised. Many customers won't find that out if they don't hang out on author forums, though, so if we want Amazon to take plagiarism more seriously we need to make a fuss on social media about cases like this.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## Clementine (Jun 12, 2015)

My guess is that the silence (which is indeed deafening) comes from not wanting to make the situation any worse while she gets legal counsel, PR, etc. involved. At this point, she's got an uphill battle ahead of her, even if it is a case of ghostwriters gone bad (which I'm not buying). If I was in her shoes, I'd temporarily disable my FB account and website to stem the flow of comments rather than deleting them, which is incredibly poor form.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> BTW, I don`t understand ghostwriters from an artistic stand point but I do from a business side...Patterson does it and is well respected by his fans. Not that I`d do it myself, the joy for me is creation.


I agree. Ghostwriting has been around as long as publishing itself. It's a legitimate business. It's when they hire any old Joe from online these days that the problems start, but I myself have nothing against ghostwriting. I've made money writing for others in the past and it didn't bother me at all. Some people are marketing geniuses. They don't want to write. They want to create a persona they can market and sell and leave the art to the writers. I don't see a thing wrong with it and never have.


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## Mr.Robot (Aug 31, 2015)

*Sigh* - Plagiarism will never stop.. Just have to keep publishing and ignore it. It's the internet and either way, everything will always manage to be free or reproduced free, or coped.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Mr.Robot said:


> *Sigh* - Plagiarism will never stop.. Just have to keep publishing and ignore it. It's the internet and either way, everything will always manage to be free or reproduced free, or coped.


Ignore it?


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Mr.Robot said:


> *Sigh* - Plagiarism will never stop.. Just have to keep publishing and ignore it. It's the internet and either way, everything will always manage to be free or reproduced free, or coped.


Wouldn't happen if it was my work stolen. I loathe thieves. I would come at a thief with every last ounce of anger and money that I have. By the time I was done, they wouldn't even be writing a grocery list. You want to steal something, steal my car. That will hack me off royally, but it is nothing compared to stealing my creative intellectual property.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jana DeLeon said:


> And I don't think this was about money. I think it was about attention, hence all the public appearances.


That's just so so so icky.

Jeez, the ways the human brain can go wrong.


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## Doril (Nov 2, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I go further than that. The authors she stole from need to sue for all royalties and damages.
> 
> I reserve my sympathy for those that are in a bad situation not of their own making. I have zero sympathy for her, although I do feel sorry for her kids, if they're old enough to be mocked for their mother's horrible choices.


I totally agree. She should pay for stealing someone else's hard work. This is just frightening.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

ebbrown said:


> I recall reading her Highland Shift series and feeling like I had heard the story before. As I was reading, I thought it was a Catherine Bybee novel (who I adore). I brushed it off at the time because I was on a kick and had been reading every bit of Highlander romance I could get my hands on. I figured it was just me. Does anyone know if that series is in question?


Do you remember which book in the Highland Shift series it was?


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

So I should scrap my latest project, To Murder a Jay Bird, the tale of a young boy growing up in the Jim Crow era West and his widowed-mother, a lawyer who has to defend an Apache accused of a crime she didn't commit?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

JLCarver said:


> I know you're making a joke here, and I do think it's funny.
> 
> But I also think that, if you did do a story like this--not saying you are, but just extending a what-if--you theoretically could do it, SO LONG as you didn't take Harper Lee's words and pass them off as your own. Would some people catch the plot mirror and call you an uncreative hack? Possibly. But you wouldn't be breaking any rules, legally or ethically. Laura Harner, however, broke the legal and ethical rules with what she did. She blatantly plagiarized whole sections.


I was actually going to do up an excerpt, but thought that would be taking the joke too far for it to remain at all funny.


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## celadon (Sep 12, 2015)

Plagiarism is the worst. I had one episode of it, where my plagiarizer was so shameless, she was trying to tell everyone that I was the one with "the problem." Her fans wouldn't listen to reason, wouldn't look at my abundant evidence. It was terrible. I was losing sleep over it.

I finally had to wave my evidence under everyone's noses for her to slither away and steal from someone else.

It is soooo frustrating. It's worse when they're so open about it, like they think they're Teflon and nothing can harm them. And the sad thing is, sometimes for a while, they _can_ get away with it! 

I don't know the story behind this woman, but if she's been thinking she's Teflon for all this time, then I can't feel sorry for her, now that her deeds have been exposed.

Much sympathy goes out to the authors she ripped off. I can only imagine what they feel right now.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Instead of just shutting down their accounts and confiscating two months worth of royalties, I wish Amazon would distribute those royalties to the authors the plagiarist stole from.

I'm starting to wonder if any of Laura Harner's books were ever actually written by Laura Harner.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

She has 7 pages of active books up on Amazon so it doesn't look like Amazon did much of anything.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

jackz4000 said:


> She has 7 pages of active books up on Amazon so it doesn't look like Amazon did much of anything.


Yet. The specific books accused of being copies have disappeared (so far as we know). I don't know that Amazon will remove or force to be removed other books by the author NOT accused of being plagiarized as yet.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Mr.Robot said:


> *Sigh* - Plagiarism will never stop.. Just have to keep publishing and ignore it. It's the internet and either way, everything will always manage to be free or reproduced free, or coped.


The quoted comment actually means piracy, not plagiarism. Two totally different things. Plagiarism should never be ignored.

The free pirate sites, not much you can do about that (assuming they even have your books at all, and chances are they don't, they're just looking to collect credit card numbers and distribute malware). If someone is selling my books without my permission, they are stealing from me and I want them stopped.

And if someone is taking my words and calling them their own and selling them, I doubly want them stopped.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Meh. She can use stock photos, or an older one of herself, stay away from conventions and the like, and soldier on. She could hire someone to be her, if she wanted public appearances. I doubt anyone this brazen will stop the money train. She'll just go underground.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Meh. She can use stock photos, or an older one of herself, stay away from conventions and the like, and soldier on. She could hire someone to be her, if she wanted public appearances. I doubt anyone this brazen will stop the money train. She'll just go underground.


Yep, sadly, that would most likely be the case. The only way someone like this will stop is if they actually physically can no longer scam. People like this are looking for the "easy" way to achieve their goals. For her it must be to be a respected and well-known author of MM. Instead of writing the actual books, she plagiarized them, in the hopes that no one read the original and would call her out. In the age of the internet, it's so easy to just disappear for a while and reincarnate into a new avatar and start all over. The thing is, these people put a considerable amount of work into their scams. Too bad they use that cunning for evil instead of good.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

Sela said:


> Sociopaths come in a range of degrees, a spectrum, but what is common is that they push past the moral boundaries most of us stay within. While most of us tell a little white lie now and then, mostly to spare other peoples feelings or save face, the sociopath is a compulsive liar and cheat, who doesn't care if they hurt others because others are mere objects in their field of vision to be manipulated and used. If caught, they aren't upset that they have done a bad thing. They are upset that they were caught and will face consequences and usually will deny, create fantastical excuses, or try to evoke sympathy for their plight, shift blame, etc.
> 
> You can spot a sociopath by their response to being caught: the non-sociopath, when caught, will feel bad for breaking the law and hurting the other person. The sociopath will feel terrible that they are now being treated so badly by everyone and focus on their own pain and feelings.


A perfect description, Sela . . . and thank you. I ran across someone like this many years ago and you have described him to a T (not an author, but an accomplished con-man). Fortunately, I realized what he was (though I could not, at that point put a label on him) and ran away as fast as I could.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

In case this happens to you, i.e., plagiarized and you feel you have no recourse.  Don't believe it. This summer a reader let me know someone had done something very similar to one of my works.  I tracked her down and not only got that book removed, but am getting money for my losses.  We need to make this painful for the people out there who do this. Shame them, for sure, but also TAKE THE MONEY BACK.  The money and attention are what they do it for.  Make them rue the day that they decided to use your work to get those ill-gotten things.  They might still try to come back under another name, but they won't rip you off again, because you've made them realize that you aren't the person they want to go up against.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Ros_Jackson said:


> I'm not convinced they don't care at all, because it's a poor customer experience if you discover books you've bought are plagiarised. Many customers won't find that out if they don't hang out on author forums, though, so if we want Amazon to take plagiarism more seriously we need to make a fuss on social media about cases like this.


HAHAHAHA!!! The last time this happened to me and I provided proof that the book in question had not only been plagiarized from me but from multiple other authors, I was informed by Amazon's copyright people that they didn't get involved in this stuff and it was incumbent on me to resolve the issue with the other writer.

Amazon doesn't give a flying leap at a rolling donut about this issue. It would be utterly trivial for them to implement one of the many plagiarism detection systems already out there, but despite the fact that this has been going on for the entire time KDP has been in existence they haven't bothered. They're perfectly happy with the status quo.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

She had to do a lot of switching around for the gender swap. It seems she could have just as easily written an original booK?


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Even though the titles are still visible on Amazon, not all of them are available. Individual books and product descriptions are being pulled -- but it may be Laura Harner pulling them, so people stop looking at her work to see who she stole from. I was looking at the Highland series earlier and product descriptions were vanishing.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Sophrosyne said:


> Even though the titles are still visible on Amazon, not all of them are available. Individual books and product descriptions are being pulled -- but it may be Laura Harner pulling them, so people stop looking at her work to see who she stole from. I was looking at the Highland series earlier and product descriptions were vanishing.


This certainly seems to indicate that the Highland series is plagiarized too and that the work it is taken from just hasn't been discovered-yet.
If it wasn't plagiarized, why would she take it down?


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Lisa Grace said:


> This certainly seems to indicate that the Highland series is plagiarized too and that the work it is taken from just hasn't been discovered--yet.
> If it wasn't plagiarized, why would she take it down?


That was my thought too, Lisa. I would look at all the books she's pulled. Her Kindle books are now down to 59 listed. Didn't she have as many as 75 at one point?

Although, just going through her books again, it looks like the product descriptions I was looking at before are back up and the books are back on sale. WTH? Did she pull them and then change her mind? Maybe she realized it made her look guiltier. Although, it seems like a boatload of print books have been pulled down. She's only got 18 up now.

So... 75 minus 18 equals how many books plagiarized?

Hmmmm. B&N is down to only 10 print books by Laura Harner.

I could have sworn there were more than 10 print books by her when I looked at Amazon earlier. Am I just hallucinating books? Or have they been pulled?

Just went through Amazon again. At least 7 of the 18 print books listed are only available through third party sellers, they're no longer available through Amazon.

Has Laura made her public statement yet?


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

FWIW, the print books showing as no longer available in any print version on Amazon (except used) are:

Deep Blues Goodbye: Altered States Vol. 1
Coming Home Texas, Vol 1
Ride the Storm (Aspen Ridge Ranch, Vol 1)

I don't know if there were more that are just not showing up at all.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Her Facebook page seems to have disappeared. It shows up in searches, but when you click on it, it takes you directly back to your feed.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

Things seem to be vanishing and reappearing around her all day. It's like you have to grab screenshots of everything, because things change so fast.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Her FB page still shows for me.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Her FB page still shows for me.


I just tried again, and it says it's 'not available'. I'm referring to her page, and not personal profile.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Sounds a lot like George Harrison, who lifted the Chiffon's "He's So Fine" to make "My Sweet Lord." That lawsuit took five years and was settled out of court for about a half million dollars.

Or Michael Bolton vs. The Isley Brothers for "Love is a Wonderful Thing" which went to trial and led to the Isley Brothers being awarded five millions dollars.

Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues" was lifted from a song called "Crescent City blues" by Gordon Jenkins. Had to pay $75,000 for that.

Or Ice T vs. David Bowie

The opening bars of Stairway to Heaven are clearly from an instrumental called "Taurus" from the opening act they traveled with, Spirit.

https://youtu.be/1GWMvCXdsG4


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

555aaa said:


> Sounds a lot like George Harrison, who lifted the Chiffon's "He's So Fine" to make "My Sweet Lord." That lawsuit took five years and was settled out of court for about a half million dollars.
> 
> Or Michael Bolton vs. The Isley Brothers for "Love is a Wonderful Thing" which went to trial and led to the Isley Brothers being awarded five millions dollars.
> 
> ...


I consider these to be more in the league of artists drawing from past art. In general I find copyrights OTT where it chastises that. These days it has become pretty much impossible to create certain types of artwork which - when Picasso was alive - advanced Art per se. Have a gander at My Fair Lady (and its background) or Dracula.

Whereas Harner's doings are something else entirely: she simply genderswapped, did a few rewordings and never changed another thing of someone else's finished and polished story. That is theft.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> The only way someone like this will stop is if they actually physically can no longer scam.


Exactly, Sera. She may have shown up at conventions and such, but there are many authors who don't go to these things, don't do book signings, and so on. People wouldn't think twice about it.



X. Aratare said:


> In case this happens to you, i.e., plagiarized and you feel you have no recourse. Don't believe it. This summer a reader let me know someone had done something very similar to one of my works. I tracked her down and not only got that book removed, but am getting money for my losses. We need to make this painful for the people out there who do this. Shame them, for sure, but also TAKE THE MONEY BACK. The money and attention are what they do it for. Make them rue the day that they decided to use your work to get those ill-gotten things. They might still try to come back under another name, but they won't rip you off again, because you've made them realize that you aren't the person they want to go up against.


Details? How did you go about it, how much did it cost (without revealing too much personal info)?



> Whereas Harner's doings are something else entirely: she simply genderswapped, did a few rewordings and never changed another thing of someone else's finished and polished story. That is theft.


Yeah, it's hard to not be influenced by previous works, and bits and pieces are likely to show up no matter how hard we try to avoid it, but outright taking an entire book? No.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Exactly, Sera. She may have shown up at conventions and such, but there are many authors who don't go to these things, don't do book signings, and so on. People wouldn't think twice about it.
> 
> Details? How did you go about it, how much did it cost (without revealing too much personal info)?
> 
> Yeah, it's hard to not be influenced by previous works, and bits and pieces are likely to show up no matter how hard we try to avoid it, but outright taking an entire book? No.


We're in talks now so I can't tell you details though you can read about what happened on my blog.

How I went about it? (1) First DMCA notices, including going to her web host as she used MY WORK to show how GOOD her book was, and told them to shut her website down. (2) Mobilized my fans to review and let people know EVERYWHERE. (3) Contacted her and her publisher by email and phone and kept at it. (4) Posted EVERY SINGLE PLACE she did: her FB, her blog, Goodreads, comments, reviews, emails, etc. (5) Didn't let up. EVER.

I'm a lawyer and though I have left the profession mostly behind, I found that my old pit bull instincts came back like riding a bike. I also used the power of moral outrage. I didn't back down. I was unrepentantly ANGRY and RUTHLESS. I wanted her and anyone else who was going to do this to steer clear of me. Because while we can't stop every plagiarist and copyright violator I figure they will go elsewhere when they realize that I am relentless.

That's why we mustn't be nice to these people. Don't pity them. Don't look for explanations that would "explain" away their theft. Don't say we should withhold judgment until we have the whole story. The whole story is terribly simple: they are thieves and they stole someone's stories instead of something physical like a jewels. What's more disgusting is that they revel oftentimes in the FAME that is not theirs. So they steal the readers' love, too.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> HAHAHAHA!!! The last time this happened to me and I provided proof that the book in question had not only been plagiarized from me but from multiple other authors, I was informed by Amazon's copyright people that they didn't get involved in this stuff and it was incumbent on me to resolve the issue with the other writer.
> 
> Amazon doesn't give a flying leap at a rolling donut about this issue. It would be utterly trivial for them to implement one of the many plagiarism detection systems already out there, but despite the fact that this has been going on for the entire time KDP has been in existence they haven't bothered. They're perfectly happy with the status quo.


Okay, let me put it another way: I think Amazon can be made to care, if this case leads to enough negative publicity. If this issue got into some national papers, and those articles were shared and retweeted extensively, it's possible.

I'm sorry this happened to you, that really sucks.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

This thread got me to thinking. Earlier this year, there was an author in one of my writing groups who was accused of plagiarism by another author. There was no actual merit to her claims, because the only similarity between the two books was the title. The author went on a tirade and directed her fans to the other authors page to accuse her of plagiarism, and try to force Amazon to remove her books. 

I got into a little bit of a verbal tussle with the accusing author, and had to outline to her what plagiarism was, and what it certainly wasn't. It's almost unbelievable how ignorant many writers can be when it comes to this issue, and the reckless nature in which they are prepared to drag others through the mud. 

This case, obviously, is nothing like that. This is clear plagiarism, whether it's because of a ghostwriter or the author's own arrogance. Even if it were a ghostwriter, I don't have much sympathy. I'm not one of those people who abhor ghostwriting (fiction or non-fiction), but I do abhor blind ghostwriting, a term I've coined to describe "Write me a book. I don't care what it is." If you're going to hire a ghostwriter, because you have a story you want told but don't have sufficient skills, do it. But lazy ghostwriting, where you give a vague outline (M/M in a small town, for example) is nothing more than a cash grab. 

We don't know that this woman did this; we only know what we know. We can speculate about the rest, but there is no accountability to be had here, and that's what irks me the second most. Whether or not it should (it shouldn't), these events serve as a referendum on the entire landscape of self-publishing. We've made great strides in the visibility of self-publishing as a solid career choice, but every time these asshats show themselves, we take a step back. 

So, get angry. Because while we can be thankful it wasn't our work stolen this time, each one of these events chips away at the publishing path we all love. I pray these authors find justice in whatever form satisfies them, and pray there is accountability in the future. I remember reading a blog from Jamie McGuire, who went after her plagiarist HARD. Unfortunately, not many authors have the financial resources she had. 

So if this outrages you, and you're left not being able to do much other than to get mad, then I encourage you to check out the books of those who were victimized, and perhaps purchase a book or two as a sign of support. 

Sorry for the long post. I had to rant.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

555aaa said:


> Sounds a lot like George Harrison, who lifted the Chiffon's "He's So Fine" to make "My Sweet Lord." That lawsuit took five years and was settled out of court for about a half million dollars.
> 
> Or Michael Bolton vs. The Isley Brothers for "Love is a Wonderful Thing" which went to trial and led to the Isley Brothers being awarded five millions dollars.
> 
> ...


You forgot he most recent episode. Marvin Gaye's family sued Robin Thicke and Pharell (sp?) over Blurred Lines.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm probably being ignorant but i always assumed that plagiarizers were people that either couldn't write, didn't have the patience for it or were just plain old scammers trying to make a quick buck. This author has so many works though. Are they all plagiarized? Because if they're not and some are her own work, i don't see the point. She may as well have wrote her own book than go to the trouble of changing the words around and swapping names. Its a shame really because she's just thrown her career away that from what i gather was quite successful for what?


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

Just spit-balling a scenario. What if... what if this writer had a few books out and wanted to bulk up her backlist so she put out a call for ghost writers. One of the ghost writers sent her entire manuscripts that were plagiarized. She then - in good faith - reworked the manuscripts to fit the theme she wanted. 

Not saying this is what happened, and if it is what happened she failed to double check her resource, but my point is we don't really know for sure yet.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Yeah the more and more that comes out (more books just slightly changed including some big publisher books) the less and less this is looking good for anyone caught it in, and looking like hopefully a very expensive punishment for the author who did this or facilitated it. I do think this thread was good in highlighting how it's important to show caution at first in these situations until more facts come out (because people have been wrongly accused and mobbed before), understanding how situations like this can happen without malicious intent (the whole IF there was ghost writers involved), and that now that it's becoming clear this is straight theft what anyone can do about it. 

I agree that people who will do this to other authors make like difficult for everyone because we don't need more bad press as a subsection of publishing. But remember, this also happens to NY publishers too where "true stories" are made up or lifted from others etc etc. There's even a famous experiment of querying agents with classic fiction beginnings and in some cases an offer to read the full manuscript was offered!


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

K.B. said:


> So, get angry. Because while we can be thankful it wasn't our work stolen this time, each one of these events chips away at the publishing path we all love. I pray these authors find justice in whatever form satisfies them, and pray there is accountability in the future. I remember reading a blog from Jamie McGuire, who went after her plagiarist HARD. Unfortunately, not many authors have the financial resources she had.
> 
> So if this outrages you, and you're left not being able to do much other than to get mad, then I encourage you to check out the books of those who were victimized, and perhaps purchase a book or two as a sign of support.
> 
> Sorry for the long post. I had to rant.


I agree. This is important. Not the individual case but the landscape that allows this kind of thing and makes the risk low and the cost for the victim high. Not cool.

I had an opportunity to give Amazon a little feedback recently, and one of the things I mentioned is that I'd really like them to take legal issues seriously. I want to know they have my back if there's ever an issue with theft. I don't want them to say "work it out with the thief, here, exchange emails."

It's still very much a wild west out there, and we need to look after each other when possible, and work on protecting ourselves.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

Sela said:


> This is really an esoteric argument, but I tend to enjoy those.
> 
> I have a minor in abnormal psych (which qualifies me for exactly nothing  ) and worked for a while in a special program with preschool children who were abused and neglected, and for a while with adults with brain damage or who were in care due to mental illness. I've seen sociopathy (antisocial personality disorder) and its precursors up close and personal, both in those programs and in everyday life. I know very well that it's not proper to diagnose someone as a sociopath over the internet, but that admonishment is for psychiatrists and psychologists and is about best professional practice etc. The rest of us non-professionals have to figure out how to spot sociopaths in our everyday life and learn how to deal with them. It isn't easy, and the best hope is to avoid them completely. Where they go, human misery follows. The really sad thing is that most likely, they are just broken and won't / can't be fixed. When treated, they tend to get even better at what they do.
> 
> ...


I've had the misfortune to deal with both NPD and BPD folks. One of the things they HATE is to be exposed. THEY create the narrative they put out into the world, not you or anyone else. LOL, not even facts get in the way of the fact (for them) that what THEY present and believe is the truth.

I agree that shame will not work if she has 75 novels and she's lifted many of them from other authors. What will happen is that she will take the time to create her narrative, and she'll die on the hill of her narrative (one that assigns no blame to her, paints her as a victim, or points fingers at the authors she stole from as big meanies).

So my hope is that this story goes wide, and the fans get hold of it, and are outraged. Taking the money from her (even though she deserves it, you know...) will be the consequence that will hit home.

IMO, and this is not professional, or with anything to back this other than my long-standing having to deal with a couple of cluster B PITAs, (they're related) is that she'll put out one or two statements that slough off all responsibility, and invent a pen name, and do it again. They don't learn. Because they are always right. Their way is the only way, and to heck with law, common sense, decency, etc.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

X. Aratare said:


> We're in talks now so I can't tell you details though you can read about what happened on my blog.
> 
> How I went about it? (1) First DMCA notices, including going to her web host as she used MY WORK to show how GOOD her book was, and told them to shut her website down. (2) Mobilized my fans to review and let people know EVERYWHERE. (3) Contacted her and her publisher by email and phone and kept at it. (4) Posted EVERY SINGLE PLACE she did: her FB, her blog, Goodreads, comments, reviews, emails, etc. (5) Didn't let up. EVER.
> 
> ...


I understand about not giving more details, but what you set out is very good. I've taken notes!  I'm neither a lawyer, nor a bull dog, but I can be very stubborn.

And yes, let's not be nice to these people. They don't deserve our pity. They deserve being put in the stocks of public opinion and beaten with scorn and disgust.

I'd feel differently if it had been a case of lazy oversight of ghostwriters. She could have issued a statement blaming herself and apologizing, offered to make it right with those harmed. But instead, she's culling blog posts, shutting down her Facebook, removing certain books, and so on, which tells me she knew danged well what she was doing and now she's in damage control mode.

I guess she thinks nothing can be done if people don't have an opportunity to study the books in question. I'd bet there are several people willing to send copies of these books to a blogger or two, for further examination, or even to the authors who were stolen from for legal action.

And yeah, she'll be cleaning stuff up, redoing her bio, and starting over again, in a totally different genre most likely. It wouldn't surprise me if she hasn't already set up a fall-back plan for just such an emergency.

Hm. Seems like I'm not in a generous, forgiving mood this morning.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm kinda shocked that she has not uttered one word of self-defense or some sort of acknowledgement of what is going on. Her personal FB page is still up, and plenty of people are asking about this mess. Bizarre.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

There was one comment from someone saying she had posted to FB - and since I don't see anything like that, I wonder if she posted it privately, i.e. only her friends-list can see it. Basically, trying to do damage control, but only with her fans?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

JLCarver said:


> I'd heard that she'd posted on Facebook too, but I haven't seen anything. Some in a Goodreads writing group I'm in said that her excuses were incredibly lame. Like a three-year-old could come up with a better excuse. I don't want to be one to stir up the rumor mill, so I won't repeat them here. They really are too far out there to make any sense, which makes me seriously doubt their validity.


The original author she stole from, Becky McGraw, apparently commented on a blog post somewhere and shared the two different excuses LH has tried to use with her thus far. Suffice to say, NEITHER ONE mentions a ghost writer, and both are so terrible as to be ridiculous. This woman is clearly desperate to try and cover her butt with a few lies. Unfortunately for her, there really is no excuse that holds water, particularly when more than one plagiarized book has already been proven.

So, that ghost writer theory? No dice. I'm sure she will kick herself for not thinking of it as a way to avoid blame. She did this entirely herself, and now I'm guessing will be doing as much as possible to mitigate the damage from behind the scenes. It has already started to fade from the limelight of the writing community as nothing new is forthcoming, which is sad. It just means she will have an easier time trying to pretend it isn't happening. However, rumor has it at least one author has sought legal representation, so maybe the real consequences are still forthcoming for this woman.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I'd feel differently if it had been a case of lazy oversight of ghostwriters. She could have issued a statement blaming herself and apologizing, offered to make it right with those harmed. But instead, she's culling blog posts, shutting down her Facebook, removing certain books, and so on, which tells me she knew danged well what she was doing and now she's in damage control mode.


Sounds that way to me, too.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Yeah, the "ignore it and hope it goes away" tactic seems to be effective. Did we ever hear any resolution to the Jamie McGuire case? It seems like it all just disappears, like it never happened.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

jdcore said:


> Just spit-balling a scenario. What if... what if this writer had a few books out and wanted to bulk up her backlist so she put out a call for ghost writers. One of the ghost writers sent her entire manuscripts that were plagiarized. She then - in good faith - reworked the manuscripts to fit the theme she wanted.
> 
> Not saying this is what happened, and if it is what happened she failed to double check her resource, but my point is we don't really know for sure yet.


There is/was no ghost writers. She did this on her own. She knew perfectly well what she was doing.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

So I wonder how long it will be, before they identify all of the other authors she's ripped off? 
That's a lot of books to check.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

The situation looks like it's becoming even more complicated according to this post:

http://lworrall.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/laura-harner-and-separate-ways-series.html?zx=f77bfb5e79bd5924

Harner appears to have done things that will drag a lot of other people into this mess with her.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

Some people unfortunately have no shame or no conscious.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Reading the second excuse that was reported on the latest link, it reminded me of another case. The writer was a Mormon school teacher, had a disabled child, I think? Didn't she also try to blame someone else, a sister, niece, or something?

Whatever, it seems she wasn't the easiest person to work with. All doubt there might have been a reasonable, understandable reason for all of this has fled due to her reactions to the reveal.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

cedric193 said:


> Some people unfortunately have no shame or no conscious.


Or even a conscience.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2015)

Well she put a new tweet on the last 24 hours, with not a mention of her recent ousting.  I`m so shocked at the brazen cheek of this woman. 
Any news on the original authors quest in justice?
I can`t believe I felt a thread of pity for her.
I`m sorry to bring this back up, I`m seething...I should move on but why is this planet full of cheats, and why do they always get ahead?


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## LondonCalling (Dec 19, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> I'm with you. It makes me angry too, and I keep checking for signs of justice.


There's rarely any with plagiarism. It makes my blood boil.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2015)

vanstry said:


> So I wonder how long it will be, before they identify all of the other authors she's ripped off?
> That's a lot of books to check.


If any of you write in her genre, you better check her books to make sure she hasn't done it to you.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

If it's true that she really resorted to these excuses, I'm even more disgusted than before. How much of your soul do you have to sell to throw your own daughter under the bus? How much contempt must you have for your readership for you to expect them to believe you kept a file of 'inspiration' and accidentally thought you wrote an entire book, never mind the fact the sexes of the characters were changed, while the rest of the story remained largely in tact? 

I have no patience for the theft of creative expression. I REALLY have no patience, nor tolerance for anyone who is incapable of owning their shit.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

ebbrown said:


> Yeah, the "ignore it and hope it goes away" tactic seems to be effective. Did we ever hear any resolution to the Jamie McGuire case? It seems like it all just disappears, like it never happened.


She and the other author sued the guy who plagiarized them and, if I recall correctly, won a judgment for the royalties from the plagiarized book.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

The accused finally speaks...and I'm still sitting here stunned at her brass balls.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/28/prolific-romantic-fiction-writer-exposed-as-a-plagiarist


> Harner added that she was "working to address concerns raised by two authors who have accused me of plagiarism", saying that she would provide a more complete statement later this week. "Until then, please do not judge me too harshly."


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

"Trout added that there was "definitely shock" about the situation, but that she was "surprised that there isn't more shock from authors". She pointed to "this unwritten law in the world of romance, young adult, and new adult authors and readers. I call it Be Nice, in which every author is expected to be supportive and enthusiastic of every other author, regardless of bad behaviour. And a lot of authors exploit Be Nice to do really awful things to each other, because they know they're not going to be called out."

I would not *be nice*. The "regardless of bad behaviour" rings false with me.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Flat out sociopathy. 

Nothing is her fault. She was under stress, she had extenuating circumstances, she really really feels bad about it...

The rest of us know what adulthood is like.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Sigh. 

I was hoping she was just guilty of being an idiot. But she pretty much admits she stole all that work deliberately and purposefully. Sad all the way around. 

Well if anything it's another good example of "don't try this at home kids". 

People never learn.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

"For those who know me best, you know that responsibility for my actions begins and ends with me. I will also add there are some personal and professional issues I've had to deal with in the last year that have stretched me in ways that haven't always been good for me. I write about certain concerns related to military service for a reason; however, I am not offering that as an excuse. I just think whenever someone acts so out of character, it's helpful to ask why."

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/28/prolific-romantic-fiction-writer-exposed-as-a-plagiarist


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Wansit said:


> "For those who know me best, you know that responsibility for my actions begins and ends with me. I will also add there are some personal and professional issues I've had to deal with in the last year that have stretched me in ways that haven't always been good for me. I write about certain concerns related to military service for a reason; however, I am not offering that as an excuse. I just think whenever someone acts so out of character, it's helpful to ask why."
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/oct/28/prolific-romantic-fiction-writer-exposed-as-a-plagiarist


To translate, "I don't want to _offer _military service as an excuse, so I'll merely _suggest _it as an excuse and hope someone else bumps it up to _offering_."

Interestingly, she herself says she "transform[ed] two M/F romance stories into an M/M genre." I wonder if she plans to pass the plagiarized work off as attempts at adaptation ("adaptation" = _Emma _--> _Clueless _or _Jane Eyre_ --> _The Eyre Affair_, not this sort of thing).


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2015)

Wow! A national paper like that will ruin her name. And good. But you know what? I`m sure she will just come back under a pen-name and make good cash again. I have to give her one thing, she is an excellent marketer. One good thing, I bet the original author will have an up-surge in sales due to the exposure.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

This part in particular makes me shake my head:


> In transforming two M/F romance stories into an M/M genre, it appears that I may have crossed the line and violated my own code of ethics...


'Transforming' two works that weren't hers... _may_ have crossed the line... Wow. Just wow.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I've read that in addition to M/M, she's published in other genres as well.  What are they? On her Author Page I see some paranormal shifter books, but what else is there?  I'm just wondering if she made her way into any of my genres.  (Not likely, but you never know.)


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

And now BoingBoing has reported the story:

http://boingboing.net/2015/10/28/novel-plagiarist-gender-swappe.html


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> "I just think whenever someone acts so out of character, it's helpful to ask why."


People have been asking why for what, a week now? No answer from her (other than a couple of odd and unbelievable comments, which turn out to be not quite so odd, in comparison), while she busily cleans up her fouled nest.

As a veteran, I seriously hope she is not going to use someone's service as an excuse for what she's basically outright admitted as theft from other authors. Some of us will happily hand her her ass as she exits the building.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Sam Kates said:


> This part in particular makes me shake my head:'Transforming' two works that weren't hers... _may_ have crossed the line... Wow. Just wow.


Transforming... SMH.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

barbie888 said:


> She pointed to "this unwritten law in the world of romance, young adult, and new adult authors and readers. I call it Be Nice, in which every author is expected to be supportive and enthusiastic of every other author, regardless of bad behaviour. And a lot of authors exploit Be Nice to do really awful things to each other, because they know they're not going to be called out."
> 
> I would not *be nice*. The "regardless of bad behaviour" rings false with me.


Jenny Trout is right. There does, at times, tend to be a band of brothers mindset among authors. However, I do think people have become more outspoken about it. Several years of badly behaving authors making the rest of the industry look bad have definitely had a sobering effect on many.

ETA: awesome that this is starting to get some press. Crap like this needs to be exposed.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Considering that she's published 17 books this year, and 11 last year, I would definitely check to see if your books are among her output. Some are less than 200 pages, but others are almost 500 pages. By a rough estimate, that's over a million words this year alone. 

I guess the real question is if she ever wrote her own stuff, or has she been plagiarizing her whole career?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> Considering that she's published 17 books this year, and 11 last year, I would definitely check to see if your books are among her output. Some are less than 200 pages, but others are almost 500 pages. By a rough estimate, that's over a million words this year alone.
> 
> I guess the real question is if she ever wrote her own stuff, or has she been plagiarizing her whole career?


I'm not bothered by the amount of books or words. I think I've written about 1.7 million words this year (or will when I finish my 2015 books). My biggest problem is that she acts like she MIGHT have made an error in judgment -- and hey, the military apparently made her do it. She shows no remorse and acts like being caught is barely a problem.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm not bothered by the amount of books or words. I think I've written about 1.7 million words this year (or will when I finish my 2015 books). My biggest problem is that she acts like she MIGHT have made an error in judgment -- and hey, the military apparently made her do it. She shows no remorse and acts like being caught is barely a problem.


She might maybe possibly, if you look at it a certain way and don't take a bunch of other factors into account, have behaved a little bit out of character, but we should all be asking ourselves why. How's that for an apology? LOL


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

She actually put out more books than that. The numbers have been dropping as she pulls titles down.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> She actually put out more books than that. The numbers have been dropping as she pulls titles down.


I read it was 75 books in three years. That seems like a lot, but I'm not sure if the length was static or not. Twenty-five 70,000-word books in a year sounds like a lot. Ten 70,000-word books and fifteen 40,000-word books isn't quite as impressive. I'm not familiar with her, though, and I have no idea what lengths she was writing.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I read it was 75 books in three years. That seems like a lot, but I'm not sure if the length was static or not. Twenty-five 70,000-word books in a year sounds like a lot. Ten 70,000-word books and fifteen 40,000-word books isn't quite as impressive. I'm not familiar with her, though, and I have no idea what lengths she was writing.


Any of it sounds like a lot if we're supposed to believe that her year was so hard......


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Any of it sounds like a lot if we're supposed to believe that her year was so hard......


That's true, lol. How much do you want to bet that she writes up a big excuse full of "poor me" excuses? "Woe is me, the Army made me do it!"


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Ten 70,000-word books and fifteen 40,000-word books isn't quite as impressive.


Maybe not to you. I think it's pretty impressive to the rest of us.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's true, lol. How much do you want to bet that she writes up a big excuse full of "poor me" excuses? "Woe is me, the Army made me do it!"


I'm sure all manner of excuses are coming. But no one buys them for a minute. As I said on another forum. I know a Marine sniper that was first in line into Baghdad. Haven't heard he's stolen anything.....pretty sure he saw awful things.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Andrew Murray said:


> ... I have to give her one thing, she is an excellent marketer.


If you don't have to labor over writing the actual book, then you can focus on marketing.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> If you don't have to labor over writing the actual book, then you can focus on marketing.


True dat.

I'm just waiting to see how she excuses things for some military reason. But I'm guessing by next week she's going to vanish in hopes the crap will all be washed away, and bingo, bango! It's new pen name time. Maybe she can get that daughter that was publishing all those books without her noticing to be her front woman.


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## Seshenet (May 20, 2015)

Seems like there's always someone who thinks they're the one who can get away with it.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> Another plagiarism scandal is rocking our little world. What on earth possesses people to do this?
> 
> Posting this as a warning in case you might be involved with Laura Harner in a set or some other business venture. Or, as the author of the linked article below says:
> 
> http://jennytrout.com/?p=9685


Just looked through this thread. One thing I find interesting is that regardless of how much she has appropriated regarding content, she has also leaned heavily on John D. MacDonald regarding some of her titles.

JDM - The Deep Blue Goodbye
Mz Harner - Deep Blues Goodbye.

JDM - A Deadly Shade of Gold
Mz Harner - Deadly Shades of Gold

This has to be a tad more than coincidence. A lot of cheek involved, but I guess that she figured that Noire Fiction readers might not notice her titles.


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## Penelope Redmont (Sep 10, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> She might maybe possibly, if you look at it a certain way and don't take a bunch of other factors into account, have behaved a little bit out of character, but we should all be asking ourselves why. How's that for an apology? LOL


Nope. No apology there.

She's given an amazing response. Slightly smug, and a lot entitled. Just from her response, you can see why she did it -- she felt she had a right to -- and that's a pathological mindset.

I feel for everyone whose work she's stolen. Nothing she's said so far indicates that she's feeling remorse for ripping off her victims.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QI_zajpHbI

I find it interesting to listen to her interview...try and get an idea through her answers if she is hiding something.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I read it was 75 books in three years. That seems like a lot, but I'm not sure if the length was static or not. Twenty-five 70,000-word books in a year sounds like a lot. Ten 70,000-word books and fifteen 40,000-word books isn't quite as impressive. I'm not familiar with her, though, and I have no idea what lengths she was writing.


Her titles seem to run the gamut, from 170 pages (guess at 40-45K) to 475 pages (guess at 100k), with the majority over 300 pages. Since most of what's still available is print, I think that's pretty accurate. The plagiarized books are still posted on Goodreads if you want to see the full spread.

While I understand that someone who dedicates themselves to writing as much as possible can produce a lot, when you're "dealing with personal issues", etc, etc...

I can write fast, but usually it's a slower process. On the other hand, I can edit a book in a week. By using her method, I should be able to publish 52 books a year. Search and replace is such a wonderful tool. Reverse engineering an epub or mobi isn't too difficult either, so I don't even have to type much.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I admit that I haven't read every one of the 190 comments, but the only mention I see of the military is her incidental mention of "writing about military service for a reason." Is she supposedly known for characters who are current or ex-military?  (in shifter books, that doesn't seem very likely) Or has she served (or _claimed_ to serve) in the military? There's no mention of that on her author page. Someone here also made reference to her 'throwing her daughter under the bus' but I didn't see anything like that, either, in the very brief comments she's made about this matter.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and *had no choice* but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


Umm, "no choice"? In this fictional scenario, there are definitely other choices. Failing to see them doesn't negate their existence.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


The problem here is that this doesn't appear to be a simple case of, say, a homeless mother stealing bread to feed her starving kids. This is closer to her saying "Well, bread is good, but I'm gonna swipe a Ferrari instead."

This is someone who, from what I can see, actively basked in the glory that wasn't hers to bask in. I'm a pretty sympathetic guy, but that goes a long way toward erasing any sympathy I might have.


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## AngelaQuarles (Jun 22, 2014)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


She did have a choice, and in fiction, the type of choice she made would fall under the non-hero label. Seeing this all play out reminds me strongly of Larry Brooks's excellent writing craft book _Story Engineering_. In it, he talks about the three dimensions of character. First dimension are the surface quirks, ticks, the outward appearance/mask a character shows the world. Second dimension goes into the _why_, explaining why a character has adopted that mask, why they have those quirks. In other words, their backstory. Then the third dimension is when a person/character truly reveals who they really are based on their second dimension when they're faced with adversity and conflict. Not everyone reacts to their backstory (in this case some kind of military angle) the same way. Will a character shed their mask and be a stronger better person as a result of this conflict, or will they cling to their mask? She's definitely showing her true character here at this moment of conflict and at the moment when she chose this path.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

The plagiarism thing is getting waaaay out of hand. Just found a createspace paperback version of one of my study guides, and let me tell you, I was outraged. And then I looked inside. The buggers have just stolen my name and title and printed a book espousing fundamentalist religious views. There are only six copies, and they're retailing for $25 each. The logic probably went something like 'no one's buying this for under a buck, so there's no way they'll pay $25 for it'. Looks like my name and book title are being used to transmit seditious propaganda


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


The fact that you, as an author, would make excuses for Harner, despite the fact that she has provided no apologies or any explanations of substance, is, frankly, appalling.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

What I am still pondering over is the effort to change names and random words... Why not read a really good book - totally and utterly copy the storyline (thus saving yourself any extra effort at all of plotting, doing scene breakdowns, character arcs, etc) and then just write it from scratch in your own words.  It would still totally be stealing, but no one could ever take you to court for it, the worst you might get is some hate on the internet for having a story that is identical in plot. Am I right about that? (I'm assuming that as long as you don't take their words then it is not illegal to take their idea?)

I am absolutely NOT condoning doing this, I'm just saying that surely it would not take a great deal more effort than what she must have had to do anyway to plagiarise these books?


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> I am absolutely NOT condoning doing this, I'm just saying that surely it would not take a great deal more effort than what she must have had to do anyway to plagiarise these books?


Or likewise, while you're rewriting it, change a few scenes just to make it yours.
Also not condoning it, but I get what you're trying to say.

I used to teach at a local college and it would never fail that on occasion someone would feel the need to cheat and copy someone else's work verbatim - as if I wouldn't notice it. I mean seriously, it was just a homework assignment. Had they changed even a few things that would have given them plausible deniability.

I used to tell my peers that as far as I could tell there were two kinds of cheaters: Those who did it for the thrill, and those who were too dumb to even cheat correctly.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Any of it sounds like a lot if we're supposed to believe that her year was so hard......


Yeah, attending all those conferences this year, and signing all those plagiarized books from so many years of transforming them... rough.

Google sucks as a search engine which is why so many here think there isn't an outcry from readers, bloggers etc... but there is.
Two professional groups RWA, and NINC look like they are on the way to banning her. Various bloggers who have promoted her work in the past have been speaking out, there is backlash on Goodreads and in the M/M community of readers and reviewers, etc. She won't be able to show her face again at conferences or signings without someone asking if her work is plagiarized. Her public stints for attention: signings, panels, partnering with other authors for box sets, etc. seem to be over.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Thankfully, I had not read one of those books. But other romance reader friends have. Now I have to think before I try out a new author in romance. I mean how am I suppose to know with all those gazillion pen names in my beloved genre. 

And its not that there isn't any cross over between m/f and m/m in romance, there is quite a bit of it actually, its just that there are so many books and we tend to be voracious readers. So we can't read every book to find these things out, we can't remember word by word what we might have read 6 months ago, 100 books ago. So how many more of these people are out there that are doing this. It makes me wary every time I see new authors and books popping up in romancelandia. 

And this one can just create a pen name to add to the sea of pen names out there. Not sure if such a person can really be stopped all together.

But yeah, its certainly being talked about in romance land, writers and readers alike.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Atunah said:


> And its not that there isn't any cross over between m/f and m/m in romance, there is quite a bit of it actually, its just that there are so many books and we tend to be voracious readers. So we can't read every book to find these things out, we can't remember word by word what we might have read 6 months ago, 100 books ago. So how many more of these people are out there that are doing this. It makes me wary every time I see new authors and books popping up in romancelandia.


So true. I tend to wonder when I see a new author pop up, especially if there is a huge backlist and the author profile is empty. I've been burned more than once by book plagiarizers.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> The daughter comment came from the author she stole the work from. One of the excuses allegedly given to Becky McGraw was that her daughter plagiarized the books and published them under her name. The other excuse given to McGraw was that she had a slush pile of "ideas" that happened to include the full work from Becky McGraw and others. I say allegedly, because those excuses came in an angry post from Becky McGraw. I'm not saying McGraw is lying, but I am suggesting that she may have posted things out of anger (and she had a right to be angry).


Posting out of anger does not equal making things up. There are screenshots of those excuses.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Delete.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> The daughter comment came from the author she stole the work from. One of the excuses allegedly given to Becky McGraw was that her daughter plagiarized the books and published them under her name. The other excuse given to McGraw was that she had a slush pile of "ideas" that happened to include the full work from Becky McGraw and others. I say allegedly, because those excuses came in an angry post from Becky McGraw. I'm not saying McGraw is lying, but I am suggesting that she may have posted things out of anger (and she had a right to be angry).


Thanks for the explanation.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> I agree. Stephen Sondheim did it. He sat down one day and said, "Ooh! Here's an idea! Let's take Romeo and Juliet and set it in New York with street gangs!" Then he went on to write West Side Story. And let's not forget the countless story pitches involving Die Hard--"It's Die Hard on a bus!" (Speed), "it's Die Hard on an Airplane!" (Air Force One)... She could have saved herself a lot of heartache if she'd only tried to be even just a little bit creative. Personally, I'm disgusted by her.


In my opinion, those examples aren't even in the same ballpark of what this person did. Sondheim used Romeo and Juliet something that was in the public domain even back in the 50s. He didn't re-write someone's popular play that was already on Broadway. Airplane! was a parody of those type of movies, you get more leeway with parody. And even if they pitched something as "Die Hard on a bus" they wouldn't have gone too far if their script for "Speed" was a re-write of "Die Hard" with character names and locations changed but just about every scene was the same.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Delete.


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## RC Butler (Sep 17, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now.


She had a choice, as do we all. She apparently chose to break the law and take a quick an easy way forward as opposed to putting in the work required. That's on her and I have little sympathy for those that do so, no matter what the circumstances.


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## RC Butler (Sep 17, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> Too much of the internet is being watered down with public shaming. SHAME. SHAME ON YOU and blah blah blah. Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


While I agree that shaming is not needed, this is a situation where both the public and the writing community needs to be informed so they may take the actions they deem necessary and ensure their works have not been used as well. Her readership, and the authors she copied, deserve an explanation for the trust that has been violated and deserve compensation for said violation. As such, the situation will and should be discussed within the community.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

johnkellyjr said:


> I find your lack of discrimination about who you apply the label of author to almost as appalling as your lack of empathy. I don't condone what she did, but I'm not going to gather up rocks to throw at her either. Instead, I gave one idea to turn a negative into a positive. If you don't have any other solutions, and want to sit up on your high horse passing judgments around willynilly, kindly trot along. Not too much of anything you're going to say to me is going to sink in. Sorry.
> 
> Too much of the internet is being watered down with public shaming. SHAME. SHAME ON YOU and blah blah blah. Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


Dunno, John. I think the threat of public shame is a powerful tool when it comes to encouraging decent behavior. Not all bad behavior is illegal. Not everyone has the money to file a civil suit to seek redress for a wrong. But (most) people value their reputations, and knowing one's reputation will suffer can deter bad behavior (by "bad" I mean "damaging to others"). I think human communities have always relied on public shame as one way to keep order. Maybe it used to be gossip over the neighbor's fence, whereas now it's worldwide and electronic. It's still basically the same thing. Can it be misused? Yeah, sure, it's subject to abuse. But in this case, it's not being misused, so far as I can tell. Barring some unexpected revelation, this instance of plagiarism is A Bad Thing, and watching this woman suffer the consequences in embarrassment and loss of status may deter other would-be plagiarists.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

johnkellyjr said:


> I find your lack of discrimination about who you apply the label of author to almost as appalling as your lack of empathy. I don't condone what she did, but I'm not going to gather up rocks to throw at her either. Instead, I gave one idea to turn a negative into a positive. If you don't have any other solutions, and want to sit up on your high horse passing judgments around willynilly, kindly trot along. Not too much of anything you're going to say to me is going to sink in. Sorry.
> 
> Too much of the internet is being watered down with public shaming. SHAME. SHAME ON YOU and blah blah blah. Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


I'm confused. Are you NOT an author? I see a book in your signature, so I'm not sure Jolie addressing you as an author is considered indiscriminate. 
Is discussing the ongoing situation "throwing rocks"? Not sure why stating the known facts, sharing links with further info, wanting answers from the plagarist, and warning other authors is considered throwing rocks, but okay.
Plenty of people in this thread have offered solutions, most of which are geared towards seeing the victims (ie, Becky McGraw & other authors) get justice or compensation from the person who stole their work.
If you chose to identify with the perpetrator and wish to sympathize with her, certainly that is your choice. After all, this is the internet and there's not much you can do about people discussing things you don't agree with on the internet. I don't recall anyone ever talking about Harner's sweater color or anything or the sort. If you feel the entire discussion is a waste of time, you certainly don't have to engage in it. However, if you choose to engage by urging others to have "empathy" for the person who committed the crime, don't be surprised if you get some heated responses.

I don't really think that everyone here is completely devoid of compassion. They just chose to give more compassion to the victim(s) than to the perpetrator.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> I find your lack of discrimination about who you apply the label of author to almost as appalling as your lack of empathy. I don't condone what she did, but I'm not going to gather up rocks to throw at her either. Instead, I gave one idea to turn a negative into a positive. If you don't have any other solutions, and want to sit up on your high horse passing judgments around willynilly, kindly trot along. Not too much of anything you're going to say to me is going to sink in. Sorry.
> 
> Too much of the internet is being watered down with public shaming. SHAME. SHAME ON YOU and blah blah blah. Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


Tell that to everyone that she's plagiarized.

~~~

Becky McGraw and Opal Carew, if you're reading this, I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm sorry that people, such as this poster, make excuses for plagiarizers.

Jenny Trout, if you're reading this, I learned about the plagiarism from you, before this Kboards thread was posted. So thank you for all you do.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


Grace?

More lies and more deceptions, but not an ounce of grace. The selfishness and potential psycopathy she's displayed are stunning. I see no evidence that she has any morals at all.

Painting her as some Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to save her sister's children is beyond absurd. Now, that's fiction!


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

johnkellyjr said:


> I find your lack of discrimination about who you apply the label of author to almost as appalling as your lack of empathy. I don't condone what she did, but I'm not going to gather up rocks to throw at her either. Instead, I gave one idea to turn a negative into a positive. If you don't have any other solutions, and want to sit up on your high horse passing judgments around willynilly, kindly trot along. Not too much of anything you're going to say to me is going to sink in. Sorry.
> 
> Too much of the internet is being watered down with public shaming. SHAME. SHAME ON YOU and blah blah blah. Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


Here's the thing: without shining a light on the darkness where these people live, you allow them to continue on. This woman clearly loves publicity and the adoration she gets from readers. She has a large social media presence. She feeds off of her ill-gotten spotlight. Shaming her far and wide is NECESSARY to stopping her. It stops her from continuing stealing from authors and takes away half of the reason she's stolen books in the first place. She can't be out in public now.

And btw the only GOOD to come out of this is (a) stopping her from continuing to rip authors and readers off and (b) if those authors get funds for her stealing of her work. Nothing else is GOOD.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

JLCarver said:


> But you can't necessarily copyright a plot. There are no new plots. Depending on the literary theorist you read, there are only 7, 13 or 22 plots in the world of literature. Everything ever told, written, or shown is another version taken from that finite number of plots. What you can copyright is _the way_ you tell those plots--the words you use and the characters you create that go in to creating your specific version of that plot.
> 
> What Evenstar was suggesting and what I was agreeing to is that a writer can take the general plot of a story and retell it in their own way. You can take the essential, bare-bones plot of another writer's work and make it completely your own by adding in your own characters and using your own creative word choices. The story is essentially the same, but it is not considered plagiarism. Hollywood does this all the time. Take the recent movie _San Andreas_ as an example. Almost to the month that movie was in wide release, another movie was released direct-to-video titled _San Andreas Quake_. It was essentially the exact same plot--a scientist develops an early detection system for earthquakes and predicts a mega quake to hit Los Angeles and the West Coast--but nobody is crying foul about that movie (okay, maybe they are in critic circles, but that's different), because the director and screenwriter had different characters and a different way of telling the story. (Both of them were horrible movies, of course, but only one of them had a budget into the millions...) Nobody is saying that director and that screenwriter are plagiarists--they might be two-bit hacks with no talent, but that's not against the law.


I didn't watch those movies, so I can't comment on that, but I should clarify that my comments are just in relation to what this specific person did to Becky McGraw and others. The side-by-side comparisons of the books that I've seen, leave very little doubt to what she was doing, and it was not getting inspired by a plot and then writing her own story or taking a common/popular plot and writing her own story. It was a scene-by-scene heist (re-written with new character and location names). I just can't fathom an excuse that could justify that.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> What I am still pondering over is the effort to change names and random words... Why not read a really good book - totally and utterly copy the storyline (thus saving yourself any extra effort at all of plotting, doing scene breakdowns, character arcs, etc) and then just write it from scratch in your own words. It would still totally be stealing, but no one could ever take you to court for it, the worst you might get is some hate on the internet for having a story that is identical in plot. Am I right about that? (I'm assuming that as long as you don't take their words then it is not illegal to take their idea?)


My guess would be that she was using ghostwriters and was telling them to this as a method of guaranteeing they could provide her with coherent writing at a minimal cost.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Instead of being "appalled," I'll paraphrase a quote sometimes attributed to Voltaire:  "I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.  .. unless you brazenly plagiarize it from someone else, in which case, you're toast."


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jolie du Pre said:


> Tell that to everyone that she's plagiarized.
> 
> ~~~
> 
> ...


I think the plagiarist is a fraudster and hope she is blocked and loses her public persona and never plagiarizes again, but I also agree that shame only works so much to stop this kind of behaviour and only works on those who are susceptible to it. People like this plagiarist, who did it so deliberately, and so methodically, and so often, have something basically wrong with them if they can't understand that this is terribly wrong and still do it anyway. They won't grow a conscience and not do this again the way we hope. Shame won't work on her. It wasn't just bad judgement -- it was a deliberate and outright fraud. Someone who does deliberate fraud in such a conscious way is not going to suddenly realize they did a bad thing and repent. They will just try harder next time not to get caught.

Shaming is for us folk who do have a conscience. We can't imagine doing what she did and getting caught at it. Ergo, shame works on us. We try extra hard not to approach plagiarism or copyright infringement because we know it's wrong and because we would never want to be shamed in public like this.

That didn't stop this person, either because she didn't think she'd get caught or because she doesn't care. Or both.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Sela said:


> I think the plagiarist is a fraudster and hope she is blocked and loses her public persona and never plagiarizes again, but I also agree that shame only works so much to stop this kind of behaviour and only works on those who are susceptible to it. People like this plagiarist, who did it so deliberately, and so methodically, and so often, have something basically wrong with them if they can't understand that this is terribly wrong and still do it anyway. They won't grow a conscience and not do this again the way we hope. Shame won't work on her. It wasn't just bad judgement -- it was a deliberate and outright fraud. Someone who does deliberate fraud in such a conscious way is not going to suddenly realize they did a bad thing and repent. They will just try harder next time not to get caught.
> 
> Shaming is for us folk who do have a conscience. We can't imagine doing what she did and getting caught at it. Ergo, shame works on us. We try extra hard not to approach plagiarism or copyright infringement because we know it's wrong and because we would never want to be shamed in public like this.
> 
> That didn't stop this person, either because she didn't think she'd get caught or because she doesn't care. Or both.


You have a point here. When I say "shame" I mean turn those with good conscience against her. The readers then know what she's doing and won't support her (though there are always the few that say they "don't care" if something is plagiarized headdesk) and she'll lose part of what she plagiarized for: adoration. She might feel no shame, but others will be ashamed of her and angry. They won't give her the "support" i.e., attention she craves and that hits her where she lives. It also makes it so she can't keep going under that pen name at least.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Sela said:


> I think the plagiarist is a fraudster and hope she is blocked and loses her public persona and never plagiarizes again, but I also agree that shame only works so much to stop this kind of behaviour and only works on those who are susceptible to it. People like this plagiarist, who did it so deliberately, and so methodically, and so often, have something basically wrong with them if they can't understand that this is terribly wrong and still do it anyway. They won't grow a conscience and not do this again the way we hope. Shame won't work on her. It wasn't just bad judgement -- it was a deliberate and outright fraud. Someone who does deliberate fraud in such a conscious way is not going to suddenly realize they did a bad thing and repent. They will just try harder next time not to get caught.
> 
> Shaming is for us folk who do have a conscience. We can't imagine doing what she did and getting caught at it. Ergo, shame works on us. We try extra hard not to approach plagiarism or copyright infringement because we know it's wrong and because we would never want to be shamed in public like this.
> 
> That didn't stop this person, either because she didn't think she'd get caught or because she doesn't care. Or both.


Yeah, I think that's right: the threat of shame only works on people whose minds work in a reasonably normal way. But plagiarism is very common. I think about 40% of college students admit to (what they see as minor levels of) plagiarism. So it is something an unfortunate number of perfectly normal people do, when they think they can get away with it.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Wow. I've read every post in this thread.

This thread is starting to become the equivalent of a mob with pitchforks and torches.

I know I am risking flames myself, but I can't sit by and watch this happen. So please, everyone, let's calm down and take some perspective.

It seems pretty obvious that Harner did something completely horrible and caused great harm to at least two professionals. That harm has spread out through the self-publishing community, specifically to those who write in the genres that Harner stole from. Her behavior also casts a pall on the self-publishing world.

Just to be clear and to ward off the barbs I will surely attract via this post: I do not condone anything Harner has done. Plagiarism is wrong. There are no excuses for it.

I have not seen anyone here in this thread make any excuses for Harner's bad behavior. Some people have suggested that Harner is a human being, and somehow this has caused a firestorm.

Harner will get what is coming to her. She should feel ashamed. She has done wrong, but she is also a person. The tone of this thread is veering towards dehumanizing an individual and this in itself is very dangerous. This is a very ugly thing and may be worse than what Harner has done. I'm still considering this.

I doubt there are any clinical psychologists posting here, and even if there are, there would not be enough evidence in a few scraps of information available to them to judge whether Harner is a sociopath or not. There is evidence of plagiarism. The parties who were directly harmed are taking action. The bad behavior is exposed. Let's not start attacking each other here based simply on opinions regarding the appropriate levels of moral outrage. 

PJC out.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> This thread is starting to become the equivalent of a mob with pitchforks and torches


I'm kind of at a loss as to why that wouldn't be appropriate. The woman is a criminal.

As to getting what's coming to her, most copyright violations are from someone in another country that's hard to track down or otherwise deal with via the legal system. The fact that she's open and public means anyone who's copyright has been violated can go after her legally.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> I'm kind of at a loss as to why that wouldn't be appropriate. The woman is a criminal.
> 
> As to getting what's coming to her, most copyright violations are from someone in another country that's hard to track down or otherwise deal with via the legal system. The fact that she's open and public means anyone who's copyright has been violated can go after her legally.


Are you suggesting that mob actions are appropriate? My post clearly makes the observation that legal action is being pursued against Harner. So we agree on one point.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Speaker-To-Animals said:


> I'm kind of at a loss as to why that wouldn't be appropriate. The woman is a criminal.


Criminals are dealt with by law and order. Pitchforks and torches are generally used on monsters.

And no, none of my comments can be construed as "excusing" a plagiarist.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

No one here has threatened Harner. No one has advocated attacking her on social media or in any other way. We're simply here, on Kboards, in a space separate from her (unless she chooses to drop by), talking about this thing she did, why she may have done it, and how serious a problem this is for writers in general. Mobs are mobile. Until people here start putting on their jack boots, electronic or real, and seeking her out, there is no mob.


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## celadon (Sep 12, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> Call attention to the problem, offer a solution, and move on. Wallowing in it with newsflashes about what color sweater she wore is a waste of time.


Call attention to HER and what SHE did.

Just discussing her online is not overdoing it. There are a lot of things I can imagine that would be overdoing it, but a thread where everyone discusses their outrage is not one of them.

When we're all too "polite" to make a huge issue of it, all that does is enable. When someone is as SHAMELESS as she is, then the story needs to have some traction. If we all politely "discuss it" and then let it drop, all that does is make it easier for her to get back in the saddle.

Let this story have some legs. Do it for the authors who were robbed. They deserve that much.

People tend to have short attention spans. They also tend to want to 'move on.' They will with this story too. Eventually. And then this woman will, like a cockroach, probably scurry from whatever rock she's hiding under and start again. But when she starts again, I want there to be some sort of documentation, something written about her, and not just in a few places.

I've been the victim of shameless plagiarism (not on this level, but enough to make me lose a few nights of sleep) and I wish I had had a group of people this outraged over it. All that happened in my case is that I finally got the plagiarist to go steal from someone else. No one gave a darn and few people actually believed me.

I want more for the authors who had this woman steal from them.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Are you suggesting that mob actions are appropriate? My post clearly makes the observation that legal action is being pursued against Harner. So we agree on one point.


We're in a discussion forum, discussing this, no one here is suggesting to do what you're implying with the whole "mob" verbiage. Why stifle discussion?


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

She's a public figure and we're a public forum that orients towards the industry she is a public figure in. I'm sorry, I fail to see the issue.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Alan Petersen said:


> We're in a discussion forum, discussing this, no one here is suggesting to do what you're implying with the whole "mob" verbiage. Why stifle discussion?


I'm not trying to stifle any discussion. No discussion is being stifled here, certainly not by me.

I can see now that my use of the word "mob" was distracting to the point I'm trying to make.

I'm trying to point out that some of the rhetoric in this thread is becoming toxic. The discussion is starting to sound like an angry mob to me. I should have used something along the lines of "resemble" a mob, instead of "become". Live and learn...

My point is this:

In reading over the posts, I'm seeing people refer to another human being as "garbage" and "worthless". I'm ADDING to the discussion by offering the opinion that this rhetoric is toxic. After reading through a flame war here where people accuse each other of defending a "criminal", I decided to contribute.

That's all.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

What she did is pretty awful.

And yes I'm totally against "mob actions", "retaliations", and threats. Hopefully, no one KB resorts to that sort of thing. From the looks of it no one is.

The indie community isn't really all that large. We're like six degrees of separation from another. I think what has most people jaws wide, is how brazen she was. She's stolen an entire series from one author.

I just think most of us haven't seen such blatant and dare I say prolific case of plagiarism before.

Again - many people are just in shock that she was so public. It takes balls as big as church bells to go the conferences, signings, and conventions - when you know you've been ripping off fellow writers.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Harner will get what is coming to her. She should feel ashamed. She has done wrong, but she is also a person. The tone of this thread is veering towards dehumanizing an individual and this in itself is very dangerous. This is a very ugly thing and may be worse than what Harner has done. I'm still considering this.


May be worse? I fail to see how "veering toward" _saying _ things that could possibly be interpreted as "dehumanizing" or "toxic rhetoric" is even potentially worse than plagiarizing and profiting from the work of others. I'm betting most people would take being verbally dehumanized by toxic rhetoric on the internet over being robbed by someone in real life any day of the week.


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## RC Butler (Sep 17, 2015)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> I'm not trying to stifle any discussion. No discussion is being stifled here, certainly not by me.
> 
> I'm trying to point out that some of the rhetoric in this thread is becoming toxic. The discussion is starting to sound like an angry mob to me. In reading over the posts, I'm seeing people refer to another human being as "garbage" and "worthless". I'm ADDING to the discussion by offering the opinion that this rhetoric is toxic. After reading through a flame war here where people accuse each other of defending a "criminal", I decided to contribute.
> 
> That's all.


There has been some minor flames but a war? In terms of internet discussion I've found this thread rather tame and civil. There are always a few that want to chime in with simple anger and hate but I've seen little in fighting here which is rather surprising. I certainly appreciate your premise that discussion, even of a topic that angers the community need not be toxic. I just haven't seen much here that I found fitting that description. Perhaps I gloss over the toxic posts as I give them no weight or it could be that I have become immune to them by nature as they are so prevalent online.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Let's not start attacking each other here based simply on opinions regarding the appropriate levels of moral outrage.
> 
> PJC out.


But aren't you doing just that? You're attacking those of us who don't have the same level of moral outrage as you, which appears to be ... none. It's like you're saying, "Move along people. Nothing to see here." That's another version of the Be Nice attitude that Trout was talking about. Take it from someone who HAS been plagiarized from. What people are saying in this thread is MILD compared to what those authors are thinking of the plagiarist. And its MILD compared to what Laura Harner deserves based on what she's done.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Urban Mogul said:


> It takes balls as big as church bells


Speaking of plagiarism, I'm stealing that for a book. LOL I know just who's gonna say it too!


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

X. Aratare said:


> But aren't you doing just that? You're attacking those of us who don't have the same level of moral outrage as you, which appears to be ... none. It's like you're saying, "Move along people. Nothing to see here." That's another version of the Be Nice attitude that Trout was talking about. Take it from someone who HAS been plagiarized from. What people are saying in this thread is MILD compared to what those authors are thinking of the plagiarist. And its MILD compared to what Laura Harner deserves based on what she's done.


Thanks for perfectly proving the point of my post with your ad hominem. My post attacks nobody. It is a critique of what I feel is a particular tone in the thread. Your reply in no way resembles my original post. It is a nearly perfect "straw man" argument.

My post clearly acknowledges the wrongness of her actions. Nowhere do I minimize plagiarism as you suggest. I never said we should not pay attention or that we should not be outraged.

Because my post did not completely vilify Harner, you have judged me to be lacking in moral outrage. You could not have proved my point any better.

This is getting fun.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

JLCarver said:


> This makes me think you're the one who wanted to incite a flame war.


Not my intention at all. I was just amused by what I felt was a radical distortion. Thanks for pointing that out. Probably not the best thing to write...


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/29/gay-romance-novelist-accused-of-plagiarizing-straight-romance-novelist/

Read the comments. This should probably be a whole new thread.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

If there are screenshots of Harner saying that her daughter did it, then Becky McGraw went pretty easy on her in her angry comments. She said she'd heard the excuses (pulled up the wrong file, then her daughter did it) through the grapevine, which lets people wonder whether it's true or not. I had assumed Harner hadn't given those directly to McGraw based on that, in fact.

Yeah, her comments were angry, but I think she's presented herself well. She should be angry. She's still behaving like the professional she is.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

barbie888 said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/29/gay-romance-novelist-accused-of-plagiarizing-straight-romance-novelist/
> 
> Read the comments. This should probably be a whole new thread.


I can't even get to the comments. I'm too busy steaming over the condescending tone of the article.

"a romance novel isn't exactly 'Infinite Jest.'"
"the fill-in-the-blanks quality of some romance novels seems to have been quite the hurdle for Laura Harner"

Give me a friggin' break.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2015)

She conned readers out of their money, amassing fans along the way. She took bread off another authors table, an author who poured their soul into that story...it`s theft and thanks to her nonchalant attitude, I lost any shred of sympathy I originally had. It`s not about mob rule, it`s about morals, of which she had none in terms of writing. It needs exposing. No one is attacking her personally, just as an unscrupulous author. End of story.


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## Harvey Click (Oct 28, 2013)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Thanks for perfectly proving the point of my post with your ad hominem. My post attacks nobody.


You just said, "I'm trying to point out that some of the rhetoric in this thread is becoming toxic. The discussion is starting to sound like an angry mob to me." Gee, I think some of us may feel we're being attacked when you say we sound like an angry mob, or maybe I'm just being thin skinned.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jolie du Pre said:


> The fact that you, as an author, would make excuses for Harner, despite the fact that she has provided no apologies or any explanations of substance, is, frankly, appalling.


Yes it is.



Evenstar said:


> What I am still pondering over is the effort to change names and random words... Why not read a really good book - totally and utterly copy the storyline (thus saving yourself any extra effort at all of plotting, doing scene breakdowns, character arcs, etc) and then just write it from scratch in your own words. It would still totally be stealing, but no one could ever take you to court for it, the worst you might get is some hate on the internet for having a story that is identical in plot. Am I right about that? (I'm assuming that as long as you don't take their words then it is not illegal to take their idea?)
> 
> I am absolutely NOT condoning doing this, I'm just saying that surely it would not take a great deal more effort than what she must have had to do anyway to plagiarise these books?


Maybe that's what she thought she was doing, in the beginning. Maybe she meant to do that, but got caught up in something and just decided to do as little work as possible. Maybe she showed these book files to ghostwriters, and said "write me something like this" and then never checked it.

Lazy, thieving, makes no difference. The moment she was outed the only correct response was to own it and make it right. She still hasn't done that.

I doubt it, though. She put quite a bit of effort into changing just enough to sail through a normal plagiarism check, while not having to do the amount of work to rewrite from an idea (ideas can't be copyrighted).

No one here has gotten the pitchforks out, as far as I know. I haven't seen or heard of anyone starting a slash and burn campaign against this woman. And they shouldn't. It's the authors who were stolen from decision about what to do. Legal recourse may be difficult, because it costs so much. So the least that can be done is to make sure as many people as possible see the crime, in hopes that at least one person will think twice about doing the same. Also to help other writers find out if they are also victims.

Most people wouldn't do something like this. But I'll bet there are some who don't understand that just changing the names/places/gender/whatever doesn't make the new work yours. There are newbies who don't understand how copyright works, and maybe they'll see the reports of this case and know better.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

X. Aratare said:


> But aren't you doing just that? You're attacking those of us who don't have the same level of moral outrage as you, which appears to be ... none. It's like you're saying, "Move along people. Nothing to see here." That's another version of the Be Nice attitude that Trout was talking about. Take it from someone who HAS been plagiarized from. What people are saying in this thread is MILD compared to what those authors are thinking of the plagiarist. And its MILD compared to what Laura Harner deserves based on what she's done.


Move along... made me think (and laugh) about this...


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

No one is advocating pitchforks. Mainly because then that would make Harner the victim she wants us all to think she is. I'm strongly advocating suing her for every dime she's worth now and in the future and running her out of publishing forever. No pitchfork required.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Yeah, I think that's right: the threat of shame only works on people whose minds work in a reasonably normal way. But plagiarism is very common. I think about 40% of college students admit to (what they see as minor levels of) plagiarism. So it is something an unfortunate number of perfectly normal people do, when they think they can get away with it.


As someone who taught college for five years on a part time basis and had to deal with plagiarism in student research reports and essays, most of what we caught was first year students who had no idea how to properly attribute material and ideas. They needed a course on writing and researching so they understood how to do research and how to properly cite ideas and direct quotes. Most of it was due to ignorance, in other words. There were a few who outright bought essays and then put their names on them, but most of it was the ignorant kind of plagiarism. I always had a special session on how to write and research for my course and what plagiarism was, with examples. Some students were poorly prepared for university. They should have learned in in high school all this and had enough practice that they hit the ground running, but not everyone has a good high school education. 

That said, the kind of plagiarism that is evident in this case seems like bald-faced plagiarism. Like stealing, plain and simple. There is no excuse for it. There is no rationale for it. The person who did it clearly stole from others in a way that is not the run of the mill using similar storylines and making it your own. Fiction is filled with that kind of imitation.

My suspicion is that a person who does this kind of plagiarism and then goes to conferences and conventions and is very public is a whole n'other kettle of tentacles. I would be suspecting borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder or APD. That's just me speculating on the kind of person who does this kind of plagiarism, and I acknowldge that I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist or anything professional. (ETA but I was a teaching assistant for a uni course on abnormal psychology during my grad years  )

That kind of person won't be shamed. They will be very upset that they were caught. They'll feel very outraged at how badly people are treating them online. They'll feel like a victim and come up with all kinds of reasons why they aren't really guilty of anything serious...

We're all humans, but some of us have issues with conscience and morality. Some of it may be genetic, some may be environmental or a combination. It's an explanation, but there can never be an excuse.


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

lilywhite said:


> I can't even get to the comments. I'm too busy steaming over the condescending tone of the article.
> 
> "a romance novel isn't exactly 'Infinite Jest.'"
> "the fill-in-the-blanks quality of some romance novels seems to have been quite the hurdle for Laura Harner"
> ...


Yes, the comments are steaming too. Especially the ones replying to one particular guy that shows he's never read a romance book.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

johnkellyjr said:


> If it bothers you so much, fictionalize her current situation and turn it into a best seller. A woman...a strong woman, of good moral character, upstanding and respected in her circle finds herself caught in a maelstrom of deception when she struggles to keep up appearances. When she struggles with the breakneck pace of churning out work, things go horribly wrong. We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now. How does she turn things around? She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace. My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it? You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance. I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


Except it doesn't even work for fiction.

No person of good moral character will take several entire novels and plagiarize them so boldly. Good moral character means they will not break the law like that for any reason other than having a gun to their head. I doubt there was a gun to her head.

She wasn't _caught up in_ a maelstrom of deception -- she _created_ one.

The only way to carry yourself with grace in this situation is to fess up, admit to the crime, and do the time.

No throwing your daughter under the bus, or claiming to have done it accidentally when fishing through her ideas file...

And all of us, as authors who create intellectual property, and rely on the income, have every right to be outraged and to call it what it is. A crime.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

barbie888 said:


> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/29/gay-romance-novelist-accused-of-plagiarizing-straight-romance-novelist/
> 
> Read the comments. This should probably be a whole new thread.


The comments don't appear for me.  (Just as well, I can imagine what the tone is.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

Just got off the plane in Houston and there have been reports...I need to read through the thread.  Keep it civil and remember, not every post has to be responded to...

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> No one is advocating pitchforks. Mainly because then that would make Harner the victim she wants us all to think she is.


THIS.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JLCarver said:


> Mr. Joe from Toledo can seriously go fu...ndamentally review his way of thinking.


Stealing this too! This thread on plagiarism is really working out for me!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Sela said:


> As someone who taught college for five years on a part time basis and had to deal with plagiarism in student research reports and essays, most of what we caught was first year students who had no idea how to properly attribute material and ideas. They needed a course on writing and researching so they understood how to do research and how to properly cite ideas and direct quotes. Most of it was due to ignorance, in other words. There were a few who outright bought essays and then put their names on them, but most of it was the ignorant kind of plagiarism. I always had a special session on how to write and research for my course and what plagiarism was, with examples. Some students were poorly prepared for university. They should have learned in in high school all this and had enough practice that they hit the ground running, but not everyone has a good high school education.


You know, I used to hold this view, but my attitude has become a little more jaded over the years. Yeah, some of it is truly due to ignorance, usually surrounding sources that don't "seem like" sources -- professors' Powerpoint slides, Wikipedia, students' own work from past classes, etc. It doesn't occur to some students that this material can't be reproduced verbatim without quote marks, and when you tell them, they're embarrassed in a way that seems genuine. Some don't understand that ideas also need to be cited, even when you put them in your own words. Some attempt to put material in their own words and do so ineptly, ending up with a pastiche of plagiarized and original material. These really are teaching moments, and students shouldn't be penalized for them.

But a lot of times, the ignorance is ... well, it's not exactly "willful," because it's not like they're actively trying not to learn this stuff. But the underlying issue of honesty is not significant to them. They become concerned about plagiarism only when they receive a grade penalty; until that point, they're not thinking about what they need to do in order to behave ethically. So, while it helps if I conduct lessons on what plagiarism is at the beginning of each semester, and if I remind students of danger areas on their assignment prompts, it doesn't fully solve the problem because a lot of people tune that stuff out as unimportant ... until they get a zero.

The take-away for me is that honesty is extrinsically motivated, for a lot of people. That's understandable. I recognize that many people are just in school to get a credential and get out. They're concerned about their future worklife, not the niceties of academic honesty. If a little cheating helps them get there, okay. If they get caught, then they have to focus on the problem and make sure they it doesn't happen again. If they don't get caught, then who cares? Yeah, I get the mentality, but understanding it doesn't mean admiring it. I find it distasteful.

And I know from having served on an institution's academic honesty review board that some of those extremely believable students who plead ignorance and seem shocked -- _shocked!!! _-- that they've inadvertently cheated are, in fact, having that "innocent" conversation with a professor for the second or third time in a row. This is why universities should track academic honesty cases across the institution, IMO, so the same student can't be shocked -- _shocked!!! _-- that they've inadvertently cheated in their lit class and then be shocked -- _shocked!!! _-- that they've inadvertently cheated in their psych class the next semester.

These are the figures from the research I mentioned earlier:



> Working with others on an assignment when asked for individual work: 42%
> Paraphrasing/copying few sentences from written source without footnoting it: 38%
> Paraphrasing/copying few sentences from Internet source without footnoting it: 36%
> Receiving unpermitted help from someone on an assignment: 24%
> ...


These are figures for undergraduates, looking back on the past year and self-reporting these behaviors. The data are aging (collected 2003-2005). I'd be surprised, for instance, if the percentage of people who've plagiarized a few sentences from an internet source is still lower than the percentage who've plagiarized from a print source. That's very last-decade. But I've been teaching since before 2003, and I haven't noticed any decrease in plagiarism. My personal, anecdotal experience is that it's increased as sources become more varied and more readily available.

Anyway ... /derail

I guess what Harner's done is somewhere between "Turning in work copied from another" and "Copying material almost word for word from a written source without citation." Seven to eight percent of undergrads self-reported having done those things in the preceding year. Fortunately, the percentage seems to be much lower among authors. Let's hope it stays that way.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Dunno, John. I think the threat of public shame is a powerful tool when it comes to encouraging decent behavior. Not all bad behavior is illegal. Not everyone has the money to file a civil suit to seek redress for a wrong. But (most) people value their reputations, and knowing one's reputation will suffer can deter bad behavior (by "bad" I mean "damaging to others"). I think human communities have always relied on public shame as one way to keep order. Maybe it used to be gossip over the neighbor's fence, whereas now it's worldwide and electronic. It's still basically the same thing. Can it be misused? Yeah, sure, it's subject to abuse. But in this case, it's not being misused, so far as I can tell. Barring some unexpected revelation, this instance of plagiarism is A Bad Thing, and watching this woman suffer the consequences in embarrassment and loss of status may deter other would-be plagiarists.


You can't shame someone who is high on the sociopath scale. She's busy figuring out how to keep publishing now that she knows it's "frowned" upon to "transform" someone's work (by borrowing up to 85% of the same words on a page) from a m/f work to a m/m work.

Her statement says as much. She'll just go back to hiring ghost writers, send them existing f/m plots, and maybe lay off "borrowing" the actual words, or at least bring it down to 40% .


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I'd be surprised, for instance, if the percentage of people who've plagiarized a few sentences from an internet source is still lower than the percentage who've plagiarized from a print source. That's very last-decade. But I've been teaching since before 2003, and I haven't noticed any decrease in plagiarism. My personal, anecdotal experience is that it's increased as sources become more varied and more readily available.
> 
> Anyway ... /derail
> 
> I guess what Harner's done is somewhere between "Turning in work copied from another" and "Copying material almost word for word from a written source without citation." Seven to eight percent of undergrads self-reported having done those things in the preceding year. Fortunately, the percentage seems to be much lower among authors. Let's hope it stays that way.


I would imagine a student might think they're being clever in plagiarizing a print book (the more obscure the better) than something on Wikipedia which is probably what this person thought, not thinking there would be a lot of crossover in readers of M/M and F/M romance novels.

And in the end, with the Copyscape, Amazon detection algorithms, and all the fancy plagiarism checking software type tools it took an alert human reading both books to bring her down.


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

Jena H said:


> The comments don't appear for me.  (Just as well, I can imagine what the tone is.)


Under authors bio, you'll see share on FB share on Twitter
Under that you can click "comments"


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> You know, I used to hold this view, but my attitude has become a little more jaded over the years. Yeah, some of it is truly due to ignorance, usually surrounding sources that don't "seem like" sources -- professors' Powerpoint slides, Wikipedia, students' own work from past classes, etc. It doesn't occur to some students that this material can't be reproduced verbatim without quote marks, and when you tell them, they're embarrassed in a way that seems genuine. Some don't understand that ideas also need to be cited, even when you put them in your own words. Some attempt to put material in their own words and do so ineptly, ending up with a pastiche of plagiarized and original material. These really are teaching moments, and students shouldn't be penalized for them.
> 
> But a lot of times, the ignorance is ... well, it's not exactly "willful," because it's not like they're actively trying not to learn this stuff. But the underlying issue of honesty is not significant to them. They become concerned about plagiarism only when they receive a grade penalty; until that point, they're not thinking about what they need to do in order to behave ethically. So, while it helps if I conduct lessons on what plagiarism is at the beginning of each semester, and if I remind students of danger areas on their assignment prompts, it doesn't fully solve the problem because a lot of people tune that stuff out as unimportant ... until they get a zero.
> 
> ...


You're exactly right. Everyone plays the innocent when they're caught and naïfs actually buy the "But no one ever taught me! Sob, sniff. Can I go now?" The same students who have no trouble figuring out how to find a paper online to pilfer suddenly become helpless babes in the woods when it comes to the oh-so-difficult task of figuring out how to cite it. Yeah, right. The very first hit on Google for "how to quote a book" tells you&#8230;wait for it&#8230;how to quote a book! Wow, if only young people knew about the internet. We wouldn't have this problem.

I remember a case of few years ago where a whole bunch of students at a school for the "gifted" were caught plagiarizing. Their excuse? People put so much pressure on them that they just had to cheat! Yes, people, it's a true story.

I don't think you're derailing the thread either. This is where the attitudes are formed that determine everything that comes after. When students aren't held accountable for plagiarism-and in my experience they aren't-they keep doing it. That's why I'm never shocked when these public figures and researchers get caught. And I often wonder at how other can be shocked when we don't do much about it at the primary level.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2015)

I thought this was the great post about the language used by plagiarists when caught and the slant of the Washington post article.

http://smartb*tchestrashybooks.com/2015/10/plagiarism-the-pattern-and-the-response/

_Edited: the profanity filter doesn't like the name of that blog! lol You will have to replace the * with an i_

The disdain of Justin Moyer for romance novels makes me think of the media questions to an all female team of scientists embarking on a space mission, who were asked how they would cope without makeup or men....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/73528777/female-space-crew-dismiss-sexist-questions-we-dont-need-men-or-makeup


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

barbie888 said:


> Under authors bio, you'll see share on FB share on Twitter
> Under that you can click "comments"


Yeah, I was trying that but it wasn't bringing anything up. Then I realized my ad block was blocking the comments from appearing. I think it's the universe's way of telling me not to bother.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> We've all been overwhelmed, maybe she got to low point and had no choice but to take the path she is on now.


I've had some of the worse years of my life since 2012. I've talked about it a few times here, but the short version is my parents became seriously ill, one after the other (my mother died and was resuscitated). My youngest son seriously went off the rails. I was broke, my own health was declining.

And you know what? I did not steal one author's book and publish it as my own.



> How does she turn things around?


She confesses to her wrong doing, with no excuses, and pays the authors in question all the royalties she earned from those stolen books. And she stops. Stops writing. Stops publishing. Stops stealing.



> She's holding her head up high, with dignity...I'd say even with grace.


Dignity and grace are defined in the dictionary. Nothing she has done meets those definitions. Nothing.



> My take on it is a few poor choices spiraled out of control, how does she get out of it?


It may have been some poor choices, but I don't believe it. One book, I could see. Maybe two. But this is beyond some newbie who has no clue about writing or what copyright means. This was a concerted effort to increase her income and standing in the writing community by stealing the hard work of others.

I explained above how she gets out of it.



> You all seem to forget that she's a real person facing a challenging circumstance.


What circumstance? Getting caught stealing? You know what they do to people convicted of that? They go to jail.



> I want her to persevere, fictional and in real life.


Wow. So you're okay with this person stealing the creative work of other people? Do you honestly think she's going to stop, if we just shrug and do nothing? I'd wonder if you would still be overflowing with such generosity if it was your books she was making money from, but frankly, I don't care.

I could overlook a truly poor person who'd tried every available avenue to get help, if they stole a loaf of bread or a package of ground beef to feed their child. It would still be wrong, but desperation is a powerful motivator.

This woman isn't that person.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

About a book being in her "idea file":  I have lots of books from other authors on my computer. Hundreds. And not a single one of them is in my idea file. My ideas are in there. But not the work of others.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> I know I am risking flames myself, but I can't sit by and watch this happen. So please, everyone, let's calm down and take some perspective.


PROTIP: In a highly charged emotional conversation, telling people to 'calm down' is akin to throwing gasoline on the fire, and takes away from whatever validity your discussion after that may have had.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I haven't been following this thread closely, just dropping in every few days. So I don't know if anyone has brought up Janet Daily and Nora Roberts. Daily had been publishing for twenty years when her plagiarism of Nora Roberts was discovered. She owned up to it in a "gee, I'm sorry, but I really didn't mean it and I was going through a hard time" sort of way. Lost her publishing contract. But four years later she was back with another publisher, though she never regained her previous status.

What Harner did isn't fan fiction copying. It's willful theft and done for profit. There isn't any excuse. She should be sued, and I'm only sorry that you can't be prosecuted for this sort of thing. It's not unethical, it's stealing. There's a difference. Sort of like slapping someone as opposed to knifing them.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

johnkellyjr said:


> The best you can hope someone like me comes around, reverse engineers the algorithm, and helps make your case in court that software was used to steal your work. It's coming. Don't hate me for it, be glad I'm not taking my free time and open sourcing things to speed along the process.


But why in the world would you invent such a thing? Surely people stealing have reasons that negate you trying to prove they're criminals, what with all that empathy you have for people who do the wrong thing.

People who steal outside of food when starving are loathesome individuals. The woman did not need the money. She craves the spotlight, and she's completely unapologetic in her theft. Since, in her opinion, she's not done anything wrong, I see no reason to feel anything for her but the disdain I do for any other common criminal.


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## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> She conned readers out of their money, amassing fans along the way. She took bread off another authors table, an author who poured their soul into that story...it`s theft and thanks to her nonchalant attitude, I lost any shred of sympathy I originally had. It`s not about mob rule, it`s about morals, of which she had none in terms of writing. It needs exposing. No one is attacking her personally, just as an unscrupulous author. End of story.


It's also theft from competing authors in the genre who put their blood, sweat and tears in an original work rather than advertising and promotion. It's theft from readers who bought the stories expecting something original, honest, and genuine. (I've always wondered why so many M/M romances sound like they were actually written about straight couples - now I wonder if this substitution is more common than we all realize!) I'm late to this thread, but it angers me to no end.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> About a book being in her "idea file": I have lots of books from other authors on my computer. Hundreds. And not a single one of them is in my idea file. My ideas are in there. But not the work of others.


Anytime I CnP something from another author, I take the time to annotate the file with their name, the source and the webpage link. Sometimes, I even make notes as to why I grabbed it (ie, what spoke to me from the grabbed passage).

With those across the top, it's kind of hard to 'forget' that I didn't write it.

In the end, we all have choices, we all make them. As adults, we need to understand that those choices, whatever they are, will come with a price. Part of being a responsible adult is to look at the choices in play and decide 'is the price worth it?'

Apparently she thought so. Until she was caught.

Making those choices, regardless of the reasons behind why, regardless of the desperation that drove them, still have consequences. Many people have hard, desperate lives, and yet they manage, somehow, to do the right thing.

And while I'm on a rant about being a responsible adult, part of that process is learning how to apologize.

It's a really simple thing, yet probably the hardest to do.

"I'm sorry."

Not, "I'm sorry, but-"

Not, "I'm sorry, however-"

Not, "I'm sorry that you-"

Not, "I'm sorry you were offended by-"

"I'm sorry."

Or, "I'm sorry, I was wrong."

Maybe even, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't and I have no good excuse."

I'd take, "I'm sorry. I hurt you."

Intentions, while they sound good, are really irrelevant. Intentions are easily twisted into excuses, placing the onus back on the wronged party as being the one responsible. Or deflecting any wrongdoing and culpability on their part.

That's bullsh*t.

Anywhere in all her statements, has she said "I'm sorry" and not followed it up with some reason or excuse? Just a simple "I'm sorry" might have gone a long way in damage control.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2015)

johnkellyjr said:


> Speaking of moving on, I've been called an author on this thread, and again...I'm not. I'm a software developer.


You link to a book in your signature. That's what authors do at Kboards, and that's why *I* thought you were an author.

I apologize for my error.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

The "I'm sorry" that should be posted is on the memo line of a big fat check to the plagiarized authors that includes the $150K penalty plus all royalties earned.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

michaelsnuckols said:


> I've always wondered why so many M/M romances sound like they were actually written about straight couples - now I wonder if this substitution is more common than we all realize!


Yes, I'd say. There are several m/m authors who read as if they published their gender-switched reject lists. Like JSCarver I would not say that female authors can't write gay men, but it's rather obvious some just change gender.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

stoney said:


> Anytime I CnP something from another author, I take the time to annotate the file with their name, the source and the webpage link. Sometimes, I even make notes as to why I grabbed it (ie, what spoke to me from the grabbed passage).
> 
> With those across the top, it's kind of hard to 'forget' that I didn't write it.
> 
> ...


I love this post ^^. Like, love it so much I want to marry it and live happily ever after.


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## celadon (Sep 12, 2015)

I cannot tolerate some lecturing about how we're being too hard on a plagiarist. Why is it that there is always someone who wants to make the perpetrator the "victim," just because a lot of us are outraged and speaking out?

I've had my work plagiarized, and my thief was shameless and was telling everyone that _I_ was the one with the problem, that _I_ was the troublemaker. If she could have convinced everybody that I stole from her, she would have. These plagiarists don't care about how we feel. But yet we're supposed to tiptoe around their delicate feelings, and get lectured self-righteously if we don't.

I don't advocate tar and feathers, or taking our outrage to the next level and getting really personal about it. But we're not doing that. We're venting on a message board. And we can't even do that without someone wringing their hands and worrying about what the poor, beleaguered plagiarist is feeling? Really?


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2015)

When I first told my wife about this, she did not need to be told how serious it was or why. In the literary world this is more or less the worst crime a writer can commit - aside from stealing an actual manuscript and publishing under your own name. Harner would have known this as well as anyone. She would have also known what would happen if she was caught. So she did it with her eyes wide open. Then she did it again, and again, and again. Did she rip off some nobody indie with a decent story? Someone she could possibly pay off or even buy the rights to the work? Nope. I guess she figured if you're going to steal, steal big.  In truth, it would have been better (not to mention safer) to troll the worse sellers in romance, take a story that had a spark of potential but still needed some work, buy it from the author, polish it up, and release it. Most indie unknowns would sell their story for peanuts compared to what she'd make on it. But did she do this? Nope. She went forward with a plan so utterly lazy and stupid as to cancel out any apology she could give. The literary world doesn't not suffer her kind very well. And for that I am grateful.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

"I'm sorry" in this situation is completely meaningless.

"I'm a thief and I stole from other authors" is the only thing she gets to say that has any meaning. 

Then: "Here's a list of books I ripped off and the money I made from each." 

Followed by checks made out to the authors in question. 

Other than that, she's being a sociopath who just enjoys attention.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2015)

celadon said:


> I don't advocate tar and feathers, or taking our outrage to the next level and getting really personal about it. But we're not doing that. We're venting on a message board. *And we can't even do that without someone wringing their hands and worrying about what the poor, beleaguered plagiarist is feeling?* Really?


THANK YOU.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

celadon said:


> I cannot tolerate some lecturing about how we're being too hard on a plagiarist. Why is it that there is always someone who wants to make the perpetrator the "victim," just because a lot of us are outraged and speaking out?





celadon said:


> I don't advocate tar and feathers, or taking our outrage to the next level and getting really personal about it. But we're not doing that. We're venting on a message board. And we can't even do that without someone wringing their hands and worrying about what the poor, beleaguered plagiarist is feeling? Really?


**Round of applause**


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

celadon said:


> I don't advocate tar and feathers, or taking our outrage to the next level and getting really personal about it. But we're not doing that. We're venting on a message board. And we can't even do that without someone wringing their hands and worrying about what the poor, beleaguered plagiarist is feeling? Really?


Really. Welcome to the new world of no accountability.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

celadon said:


> I don't advocate tar and feathers, or taking our outrage to the next level and getting really personal about it. But we're not doing that. We're venting on a message board. And we can't even do that without someone wringing their hands and worrying about what the poor, beleaguered plagiarist is feeling? Really?


I'm in total agreement with this.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Getting back to the topic at hand.....  If anyone hears any new developments in this matter, please do share.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

@stoney:  I do the same. I have stuff by various people saved because it's so helpful. Their name and/or website is on it. It's not anywhere I might in some fevered dream think it was written by me.

@ celadon:  Thank you. I can't wrap my mind around this mewling sympathy either.

I understand we shouldn't jump on someone without evidence (so-and-so says author z is a thief!), but this is not that situation. There's enough evidence to show that flat out theft was done. It was not an accident, and every day that goes by without a mea culpa and restitution only makes it worse.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

I just read an update on FB, that she has issued a statement saying she suffered PTSD and that "made" her do it. Has anyone seen it? I'm trying to find a source and will link it if I do.

Strange that she has PTSD so bad she didn't know she was plagiarising other authors, but could still attend all those in-person events and signings to suck up the fan adoration...


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Tilly said:


> I just read an update on FB, that she has issued a statement saying she suffered PTSD and that "made" her do it. Has anyone seen it? I'm trying to find a source and will link it if I do.
> 
> Strange that she has PTSD so bad she didn't know she was plagiarising other authors, but could still attend all those in-person events and signings to suck up the fan adoration...


PTSD?

Oh, I get it.

*P*ilfer plot
*T*ranspose gender
*S*teal dialogue
*D*eny responsibility.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

Has her facebook page disappeared? I cant seem to find it anywhere. 
I'd feel genuinely sorry for her if this excuse didnt come up until she actually got caught. Knowing people with PTSD and having suffered with it myself, i dont understand how this caused her to copy and paste a book and then change words and genders. Does this woman have no shame?


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

I'm sure this "update" is in a FB post that only her friends can read. It is truly amazing how she can twist this situation to make herself the victim, exploiting our soldiers who actually do have PTSD to do it. 

In some cases, people like this actually rewrite history in their own minds when they make excuses like this, believing their own BS on some level. I actually know someone like this, and to be fair, she does have PTSD. From an extremely traumatized childhood. She can never, ever admit she is wrong. She will twist and rewrite history and believe her own lies to make it so she is never in the wrong, even when she is. I'm wondering now if this author is like that. And no, I am in no way excusing her pathetic actions. Nothing will change what she did, or that she knew what she was doing when she did it. This is more idle speculation on how she hopes this will turn out. Like, is she desperately hoping her fans will buy that line of BS, or is she actually letting herself believe her own lies, so she can believe she's the one who has truly been victimized here, even if only by herself?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

My favorite thing in the whole world right now is this:



> *Please note that Laura cannot read unpublished manuscripts or accept ideas for future books (she's gotta write the story the way her characters tell her to)


http://lauraharner.com/laura/contact-me/

Don't send her your unpublished manuscripts folks, or your unwanted ideas. She's too busy stealing the *published* ones.

I've been chortling about this all day, because I am a truly terrible human being.


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## P.C. (Peter) Anders (Feb 6, 2013)

So it seems that you get caught only if you're famous and/or are plagiarizing other reasonably well-known writers. 

But what about those of us who are barely known to all but a few readers? How do we even discover that we have been plagiarized, and if by chance we did, how would we get justice? It seems even more unfair to those for whom this is barely a living--to have their living, or a big chunk of it, taken away from them by strangers who can get away with it, because they operate under fake names.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Tilly said:


> I just read an update on FB, that she has issued a statement saying she suffered PTSD and that "made" her do it.


That's the best she could do?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> My favorite thing in the whole world right now is this:
> 
> http://lauraharner.com/laura/contact-me/
> 
> ...


Priceless.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I saw a reference to "the military" in one of her non-apologetic so-called 'explanations.'  Are we supposed to assume she served in the military, and now the sound of fingers typing on a keyboard triggers PTSD?  (Sorry, that might have been a cheap shot, and I don't mean to denigrate those who were in horrific situations and truly do suffer from PTSD--my apologies to them.)


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

I read the comment about PTSD on a post on Becky McGraw's page. Another person (not Becky) said they saw a statement from her on a couple of difference blogs, that referenced her having PTSD and personal issues and struggles that "no one" could understand. I'm googling but coming up empty and can't find another source to verify it.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

Humans have an innate impulse to believe they're the 'good' person in any sort of conflict. It's amazing what sort of gymnastics the brain can go through to justify and maintain the illusion. "I spent hours re-writing the book, and actually made it better than the original, so it's at least _part_ mine", "The original author is a rich jerk so it's okay if I take their stories", "Everyone does it - at least I'm doing it ethically!".

The more I read about Laura, the more I'm convinced she doesn't feel remorse over the situation, and never will. She probably regrets being caught, but I'm pretty certain she'll twist it into a "look how mean everyone is being to me!" thing. Because she won't, or can't, acknowledge that she's a bad person.

Also...


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Monique said:


> Priceless.





lilywhite said:


> My favorite thing in the whole world right now is this:
> 
> http://lauraharner.com/laura/contact-me/
> 
> ...


That's #2 for me. The best part is the "Note" in the upper right hand corner, and the statement that "Honesty is what matters most." It's perfect, hanging over every page.

Also, I suffered with PTSD from an even that happened 22 years ago, though I have felt recovered for some time. I know people who suffer with it from various causes. And I knew a man who suffered with it from his time in Vietnam, who has been gone for some time. It's not a joke or a convenient excuse. When people blame PTSD or anything for behavior like this, they're disrespecting everyone who's been there. It's just an outright rotten thing to do.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> ...It's not a joke or a convenient excuse. When people blame PTSD or anything for behavior like this, they're disrespecting everyone who's been there. It's just an outright rotten thing to do.


This ^

Throwing around PTSD or ANY real life issue is not a "get out of jail free" card. You never know what another person is going through in their life, very few people live in a world of sunshine, roses, and golden paved roads. Most of us face each day bearing some personal, health or financial issue. Some people carry incredible burdens, but continue to live within society conventions, like not stealing.

I would suspect any regret she has, is that she got caught not for the plagiarism, she'll have that completely justified in her head.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Holy cow. 

Move over, lilywhite. I have a feeling this couch isn't going to be big enough.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

When this story first broke i felt the tiniest sliver of sympathy for the woman. I assumed like many others that it could have been the work of a ghost writer or maybe there was a completely innocent explanation. The more i read though, the more i begin to truly dislike this person. She has no remorse, instead blaming everything and everyone around her. I dont know if she just assumed that blaming PTSD and using one the excuses that most people would sympathise with- The military, would garner her pity or sympathy or even understanding. She needs to pull her head out of the sand though and own up to her actions, take full responsibility. He writing career under this name anyway is over. Atleast then people might change their opinion that shes a disgusting human being. 

This is the NHS websites page for PTSD, These are the symptoms. Nowhere does it say that it causes people to break the law, steal someones hard work and pass it of as your own and be so manipulative as to change words, genders etc. 

Re-experiencing
Re-experiencing is the most typical symptom of PTSD. This is when a person involuntarily and vividly re-lives the traumatic event in the form of:
flashbacks
nightmares
repetitive and distressing images or sensations
physical sensations – such as pain, sweating, nausea or trembling
Some people have constant negative thoughts about their experience, repeatedly asking themselves questions that prevent them from coming to terms with the event.
For example, they may wonder why the event happened to them and if they could have done anything to stop it, which can lead to feelings of guilt or shame.
Avoidance and emotional numbing
Trying to avoid being reminded of the traumatic event is another key symptom of PTSD. This usually means avoiding certain people or places that remind you of the trauma, or avoiding talking to anyone about your experience.
Many people with PTSD try to push memories of the event out of their mind, often distracting themselves with work or hobbies.
Some people attempt to deal with their feelings by trying not to feel anything at all. This is known as emotional numbing. This can lead to the person becoming isolated and withdrawn, and they may also give up pursuing activities they used to enjoy.
Hyperarousal (feeling 'on edge')
Someone with PTSD may be very anxious and find it difficult to relax. They may be constantly aware of threats and easily startled. This state of mind is known as hyperarousal.
Hyperarousal often leads to:
irritability
angry outbursts
sleeping problems (insomnia)
difficulty concentrating
Other problems
Many people with PTSD also have a number of other problems, including:
other mental health problems – such as depression, anxiety or phobias
self-harming or destructive behaviour – such as drug misuse or alcohol misuse
other physical symptoms – such as headaches, dizziness, chest pains and stomach aches
PTSD sometimes leads to work-related problems and the breakdown of relationships.

Last weeks she was just a plagiarizer, a theif and a liar. Now she's using a relevant mental health problem to get out of it.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> When people blame PTSD or anything for behavior like this, they're disrespecting everyone who's been there. It's just an outright rotten thing to do.


HOWEVER, she should get some mental help, because at this point I'm thinking she's more than just your garden variety plagiarist.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Nah, I think she's just the usual, narcissistic thief kind of plagiarist, using whatever excuse she thinks will garner sympathy. When this all blows over, she'll be back at it, if she isn't already.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Holy cow.
> Move over, lilywhite. I have a feeling this couch isn't going to be big enough.


Yeah, I gained a lot of weight this year and we still need room for Monique and Shelley.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

I looked up the symptoms of PTSD. Plagiarism was not among them. Go figure.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> Yeah, I gained a lot of weight this year and we still need room for Monique and Shelley.


I'm pretty um -- plump -- myself. I say we put in an Ikea order ASAP, because it looks like there's quite a few others joining us. Plus, we need snacks. And drinks.


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## cedric193 (Oct 15, 2015)

I know nobody has commented on this for a while but i was just wondering if there was any updates?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

cedric193 said:


> I know nobody has commented on this for a while but i was just wondering if there was any updates?


Haven't heard any. Her personal FB page appears abandoned, and she has not bothered to delete any of her public posts where people discussed the incident in the comments. She could easily disable her account if she wanted to hide all the damaging conversation. Weird. <shrug>


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

This came through in the RWA email today:

_The RWA Ethics Committee reviewed the complaint of plagiarism brought by Becky McGraw against Laura Harner. After examining and assessing all corresponding documents, Laura Harner received lifetime expulsion from membership in Romance Writers of America due to plagiarism, which includes a permanent ban from participating in or attending any RWA-sponsored events or activities including conferences, workshops, classes, and any chapter activities. Ms. Harner was notified on November 16, 2015. _

Becky McGaw made a comment on an update that 11 books of Harner's have been pulled as possibly plagiarised. I imagine legal action will take years though.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

That`s some justice at least. I hope the person learns and can rehabilitate herself, and that all credible authors can move forward with confidence. It gives me no satisfaction, it`s a pretty sad situation all around. But what has happened needed to...as by way of example.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Tilly said:


> _The RWA Ethics Committee reviewed the complaint of plagiarism brought by Becky McGraw against Laura Harner. After examining and assessing all corresponding documents, Laura Harner received lifetime expulsion from membership in Romance Writers of America _


I'm almost more upset about the dangling participle than I am about the plagiarism. WTF, RWA?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> I'm almost more upset about the dangling participle than I am about the plagiarism. WTF, RWA?


Haha, you too?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Shelley K said:


> Haha, you too?


I can't help it.  Job hazard!


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## 80593 (Nov 1, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> I'm almost more upset about the dangling participle than I am about the plagiarism. WTF, RWA?


I had hoped that was intentional, that after reviewing all the evidence, she'd decided to expel herself.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Jen Rasmussen said:


> I had hoped that was intentional, that after reviewing all the evidence, she'd decided to expel herself.


I adore you. LOL!


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