# My self-publishing experiment - Results of the first four months



## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Here is an analysis of my self publishing adventure, my four months long test run, where I've followed the tips and advises of blogs, 99 cent millionaires, Amazon bestseller authors, etc, etc... I'm trying to summarize everything, so you may decide what may work and what does not. This includes pretty covers, Amazon tag numbers, pricing, where the books were advertised, etc, etc&#8230; So, here is an analysis summary for newbies just to see an other side of this business and not just the illusionary, hyped and presumably paid "How to become a millionaire-billionaire from ebooks." stories and advertisements what we hear day by day. First, I give you the book details and then in the spoiler you'll find the true sales results.

_*Personal note:*_ all these books have a pro story, memorable, easy to recognize cover and professional editing.

_*Test Subject #1:*_ "Blogger advices; Self-publishing a book: 25 things you need to know and need to do", a.k.a. Project: The website, the pretty cover and the network of thousands.











*Released on:* 11-11-11
*Price:* $4.99 - $8.88 ($4.99 for two months, $8.88 for two months)
*Marketing:* Dedicated book website, Blog, Facebook (600+ fans), Twitter (200+ followers), Spiritual Networks (3900+ followers), Forums (Including Kindleboards, Kindle Users, SFF Chronicles, etc, etc&#8230, per-release articles, arts, wallpapers, music, ARC previews, giveaways, 6+ month long advertisement and promo prior the release and few other things (such as two NASA certificates for sending the heroine's picture to space on two successful space flights (STS134 & STS135) and a third for sending her name to Mars aboard Curiosity).
*Amazon likes and tags (Official story: likes and tags makes your work truly visible to customers);*
like (6, fantasy (94), angel(93), adventure(92), demon(92), epic fantasy(92), fairy tale(91), spirituality(91), fiction(90), crystal(81), shade(81), supernatural(24), young adult fantasy(24), volume 1(22), angeni(20), crystal shade(13), tale(12), angels(7), ya fantasy(7), good vs evil(6), superna(1)

And now let's see the reality in the spoiler. Before you check the real numbers, please make an honest guess after all these details. Go ahead, make a guess. 



Spoiler



*Sold units on Amazon:* 9 / Paperback: 0 (Smashwords and other retailers: 50+, including some freebies) - From all the retailers, Amazon was advertised the most.
*Episodic release ($1.33):* 0 sold (Released on 02-29-12)
*Reviews:* 0 (Smashwords avg. 4.3 / 3 reviews)
*Present rank:* #521,518




_*Test Subject #2:*_ "How to become an .99 ebook millionaire books and advices", a.k.a. Project: $0.99











*Released on:* 11-30-11
*Price:* $0.99 - $1.33 ($0.99 for two months, $1.33 for two months) - *(Different price can make a true difference in sales, the cheaper sells better)*
*Marketing:* Facebook, facebook groups, forums (Including Kindleboards, Kindle Users, etc, etc&#8230, giveaways, plus combo advertisement with Test Subject #1
*Amazon likes and tags;*
like (62), detective(85), 7 post meridiem(84), detective story(84), fiction(84), noir(83), 7pm(82), pale moonlight(82), series(82), jack kelly(81), 99 cents(7, short story(23), 1930 (7), historical fiction (7), new york(7), novelette(7)

And now let's see the reality in the spoiler. Before you check the real numbers, please make an honest guess after all these details.



Spoiler



*Sold units on Amazon:* 6 (3x$0.99, 3x$1.33) (Smashwords: 20+, including freebies) - Zero difference between the two price, it does not sell better than Test Subject #1
*Reviews:* 2x5 star (Smashwords avg. 4.5 / 2 reviews) - But for shorts you get reviews much faster
*Present rank:* #332,377




_*Test Subject #3:*_ "Freebie generate sales and reviews", a.k.a. "The KDP Select experiment"











*Released on:* 02-19-12
*Price:* $0.99
*Marketing:* Facebook, facebook groups, forums (Including Kindleboards, Kindle Users, etc, etc&#8230;, plus combo advertisement with Test Subject #2 and sometimes with #1
*Amazon likes and tags;*
like (29), aliens(33), civilization(33), dark(33), fiction(33), sci-fi short story(33), science fiction(33), 7 post meridiem(32), 7pm(32), 99 cents(32), series(32), 29th century(10), anno humanae salutis(10), space marine(10), xss(10), short story(7)

And now let's see the reality in the spoiler. Before you check the real numbers, please make an honest guess after all these details.



Spoiler



*Sold units on Amazon:* 2 (+1115 freebie downloads) - 2 sold units after 1115 downloads. Seemingly it does not generate real sales.
*Reviews:* 1x5 & 1x3 star (Amazon exclusive) - 2 reviews after 1117 units. Seemingly it does not generate reviews.
*Present rank:* #339,662 (#2 Free Best Seller, February 25, 2012)






Spoiler



So, after these details and sale numbers, make your own conclusion about what may truly work and what is just a hyped advertisement. As we used to say in my country; Numbers do not lie. Only people do. Opinions also welcomed as I'm curious what did I do wrong. Statistically all three books should sell well above the average, especially the first one, but you see the results.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Sometimes going free does generate paid sales. It seems to depend. I had one book that sold over a thousand copies after coming off free. I had one book that sold two copies after coming off free. I can't tell you what the difference is, and how to get the better result.



> So, here is an analysis summary for newbies just to see an other side of this business and not just the illusionary, hyped and presumably paid "How to become a millionaire-billionaire from ebooks." stories and advertisements what we hear day by day.


I don't think anyone here is saying you can become a milliionaire from ebooks, at least not on a regular basis (breakouts happen, same as in traditional publishing, but they're hardly the norm). There are threads about numerous people doing well, but people are naturally more inclined to post when they're selling a lot. I think it's also very worthwhile for people to post when they're not doing that well, so newbies don't get the idea writing ebooks is a guaranteed cash bonanza, and so that people who aren't selling in the gazillions know they're not alone. There are no guarantees in publishing, and the reminder of that is always a good thing.

That being said, don't give up after four months. Plenty of us didn't really get rolling till we'd been slogging away for quite some time. I like your covers, and I wish you the best of luck as you go forward.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

EllenFisher said:


> Sometimes going free does generate paid sales. It seems to depend. I had one book that sold over a thousand copies after coming off free. I had one book that sold two copies after coming off free. I can't tell you what the difference is, and how to get the better result.


I don't know either, but I've set one of my other titles free, right now it's free on SW, than hopefully Amazon will turn it to free as well. I'll be curious for that result.



> I don't think anyone here is saying you can become a milliionaire from ebooks, at least not on a regular basis (breakouts happen, same as in traditional publishing, but they're hardly the norm).


That was a generalization from my part after all those kindle billionaire blogs and how you can sell million books advices. 



> There are threads about numerous people doing well, but people are naturally more inclined to post when they're selling a lot. I think it's also very worthwhile for people to post when they're not doing that well, so newbies don't get the idea writing ebooks is a guaranteed cash bonanza, and so that people who aren't selling in the gazillions know they're not alone. There are no guarantees in publishing, and the reminder of that is always a good thing.


I'm writing in the last ten years (I was an award winning screenwriter / director before), so I do know there are no guarantees. However these sales surprised me as well. For a year, when I took a relaxing break from screenwriting, I've sold physical books for around a year in a bookstore to real people, books between $15-35 and I usually sold minimum two per day. Now, I find it curious that I can't sell books for $9 or less, especially books that I know inside out and had a longer marketing.



> That being said, don't give up after four months. Plenty of us didn't really get rolling till we'd been slogging away for quite some time. I like your covers, and I wish you the best of luck as you go forward.


Why would I give up? I love the challenge. I have two more releases in this month.  And thank you.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

So, as a reader, you're writing about things I'm interested in - I'm a huge fan of angel stories. I went over to Crystal Shade: Angeni and took a look at it.

Your $8.88 price made me recoil. That, combined with no reviews, makes you a hard risk for any shopper. I'll sample a book that's under full MMPB price, but over that? I'll just keep going.

Your blurb has typos. Plus, I read it twice and I have no idea what is going on.

In addition, the 'Volume 1' makes me think it's a serial. As a reader, I'm not a fan of serials because I like the complete story in one novel.

In order to increase sales, I think you need to do a couple of things - fix your blurb. Make it punchy (and grammatically correct). Find a way to get some reviews (give away copies, goodreads giveaway, etc). And drop the price if you are comfortable with a lower price, at least until you get some reviews under your belt.

Going free can be helpful, but sometimes people just download and I'm not sure they even crack open half of what they download.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Also, I looked at the blurbs of your next two, which are priced cheaply. I can tell they're SF from the cover, but the 'series description' is confusing, and you don't provide enough of the story description (or maybe it's the wording) for me to sample.

I would really, really suggest getting help with your blurbs.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

jillmyles said:


> Your $8.88 price made me recoil. That, combined with no reviews, makes you a hard risk for any shopper. I'll sample a book that's under full MMPB price, but over that? I'll just keep going.


There is an episodic release here; http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007FFUQPC ($1.33 or Free on SW). Plus, this book, the large one was sold for $4.99 before, but there wasn't any true difference. I just put it to $8.88 as a price experiment.



> Your blurb has typos. Plus, I read it twice and I have no idea what is going on.


Strange. Until this time no one had a problem with the blurb. But I know about that typo and I've fixed that, but by some reason Amazon does not update my blub and I don't have a clue why. I've republished that blurb, along with the book update around six times and I also write letters to Amazon day by day. Everything is fixed, with the exception of the blurb.



> In addition, the 'Volume 1' makes me think it's a serial. As a reader, I'm not a fan of serials because I like the complete story in one novel.


It's a complete story, but the whole story has two more volumes. Each volume has three complete story arcs, nine in overall which makes a whole life-story.



> In order to increase sales, I think you need to do a couple of things - fix your blurb. Make it punchy (and grammatically correct). Find a way to get some reviews (give away copies, goodreads giveaway, etc). And drop the price if you are comfortable with a lower price, at least until you get some reviews under your belt.


There is Crystal Shade: Episodes for the lower price.



> Going free can be helpful, but sometimes people just download and I'm not sure they even crack open half of what they download.


Episodes #1 will be free, at least if Amazon will turn it to free, but Angeni itself won't be.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

jillmyles said:


> Also, I looked at the blurbs of your next two, which are priced cheaply. I can tell they're SF from the cover, but the 'series description' is confusing, and you don't provide enough of the story description (or maybe it's the wording) for me to sample.


One of them is a noir novelette, the other is a science fiction. That series has different genre per episode.



> I would really, really suggest getting help with your blurbs.


I'll try to figure out something, but until this time no one had problems with those blurbs (Especially as reviewers had asked some of the books after those blurbs.). Hmmmm... curiouser and curiouser.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

If you've previously used your Authorcentral page to modify your blurb, you may need to update it through there rather than through your Bookshelf. I was running into that same problem a couple weeks ago.

I agree that the current blurbs don't really pitch the story all that well.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> If you've previously used your Authorcentral page to modify your blurb, you may need to update it through there rather than through your Bookshelf. I was running into that same problem a couple weeks ago.


I never thought for that. Thanks! I'm going to update it via AC.



> I agree that the current blurbs don't really pitch the story all that well.


I'm trying to leave the usual "Be brave and save the world" and "Full of spoiler" descriptions. Hmmm. Maybe this is the reason they seems vague... I never thought for that the intention to make a difference will backfire. Well, I'll try to figure out something for these.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Well, the price has been reduced to $4.99. And this is the present description. I've found one typo in it and changed it via AC, but if there is more, please tell me (My editor is not available now.  ).

"Thousands of stars could tell thousands of stories."

Seven year old Grace always dreamt of becoming a guardian angel; like those who guarded and guided her people and prepared to bravely fight in a dreaded mythical event, the Crystal Shade - which never came. It's not like Grace ever wanted to see Demons. Or wants to know what evil and darkness is - things that no one ever faced on her world and as the legends says, the Crystal Shade carries within -, nor does she want to die to be reborn as a guardian. But she thinks the mysterious life of angels is so noble, a fable that it sounds exciting - until it actually happens.

Crystal Shade: Angeni, Volume 1 explores the early life of a young daydreaming soul who is destined to reveal the forgotten past of her home world and to seek the answer for to the eternal question; what the legendary Crystal Shade really is.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Ok. My 2 cents. I'll be blunt and sorry if I ruffle any feathers. I'm a reader and although i don't read your genre--your book descriptions are limp and tepid. Even the "Thousands of stars" one, while better than the others needs a whole new voice...it's boring and not active. It is very passive. Study the descrip's on successful books. Draw the shopper in.

You are competing with thousands of other books and you need your description to hook the book browser and your descriptions don't make me want to do that.

Pricing? You should play more with the pricing. $8.88 is...............


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Your first four months slaughters my first four months.

It took me four years to get where I am, and it could have taken much longer. Lower your prices, give everything away until you have fans, and do it because you love it, not because you hope to get rich.

Just my opinion. I know there's a lot of differing advice out there. All I have are my anecdotal experiences.


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## Spirit Flame (Feb 28, 2012)

Firstly I sympathise with Guardian on his plight.
The reason for my interest in the thread was of course the experiment and Guardian's view of the various success bloggers after his experiment.

Obviously there has been mention of the blurb needing correction and also mention of a typo.
What intrigues me is that Guardian says that his books were professionally editted.

What would be Guardian's view now about the various success blogs views?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but here is what I see:

1. Your new "blurb" you show here has poor sentence structure and the punctuation is also incorrect.  That right there would make me not buy the book because I know the book would be the same way.  It reads like a string of random and incomplete thoughts.

2. Your postings here also have poor grammar.  Sorry.  It just tells me that your books are probably the same way.  If people are seeing that in the blurb and the free sample they won't buy.  

3. Personally I don't do giveaways, but many do.  IF I was going to I would make darn sure my grammar and punctuation were correct.  Otherwise all those "free" readers will tell people not to bother. I would make sure of it even if I wasn't going free.  Authoring a book should mean that you understand those things, or pay someone who does before releasing.

Please don't think I am saying these things to be rude.  I am trying to help you and sometimes what you don't like hearing can help the most.  Good luck to you.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Spirit Flame said:


> Firstly I sympathise with Guardian on his plight. The reason for my interest in the thread was of course the experiment and Guardian's view of the various success bloggers after his experiment.





> Obviously there has been mention of the blurb needing correction and also mention of a typo.


I'm on it.



> What intrigues me is that Guardian says that his books were professionally editted.


Pale Moonlight and Anno Humanae Salutis got the "Typo Free, perfect editing" from some readers (One of the reviewer also mention this in AHS's review.). As for Crystal Shade, there could be some typos in that book, but that one is a 147k long beast. But read the samples. They supposed to be error free books from the beginning to the end.



> What would be Guardian's view now about the various success blogs views?


I always believe what I experience. I never trusted in blogs as I see in my country how they works. In my country many of them used to be paid by companies or people with interests to advertise their views, be it professional or political and also to control people's opinion or view. I don't believe that this would work otherwise elsewhere. Success blogs are based on hype, usually pushed from the background, but many of them has no true background to be successful. Only the hype used to run these sites up, not the true content. There are very few exceptions.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Caddy said:


> I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but here is what I see:


Never say sorry, when you're honest. I love when someone is honest. 



> 1. Your new "blurb" you show here has poor sentence structure and the punctuation is also incorrect. That right there would make me not buy the book because I know the book would be the same way. It reads like a string of random and incomplete thoughts.


Good to know, so I can send it to my editor.



> 2. Your postings here also have poor grammar. Sorry. It just tells me that your books are probably the same way. If people are seeing that in the blurb and the free sample they won't buy.


I'm a Hungarian. My books had a Canadian editor. My forum posts does not represent my books at all. If you check the book samples, you'll see that my forum posts and the books are two different things.



> 3. Personally I don't do giveaways, but many do. IF I was going to I would make darn sure my grammar and punctuation were correct. Otherwise all those "free" readers will tell people not to bother. I would make sure of it even if I wasn't going free. Authoring a book should mean that you understand those things, or pay someone who does before releasing.


Good advice.



> Please don't think I am saying these things to be rude. I am trying to help you and sometimes what you don't like hearing can help the most. Good luck to you.


I love when someone is honest and I'm well aware of this (With the exception of the blurb punctuation problem. That's new to me. Well, I believe I'll have a little talk with my editor.). Thank you for your honesty.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Guardian said:


> "Thousands of stars could tell thousands of stories."
> 
> Seven year old Grace always dreamt of becoming a guardian angel; like those who guarded and guided her people and prepared to bravely fight in a dreaded mythical event, the Crystal Shade - which never came. It's not like Grace ever wanted to see Demons. Or wants to know what evil and darkness is - things that no one ever faced on her world and as the legends says, the Crystal Shade carries within -, nor does she want to die to be reborn as a guardian. But she thinks the mysterious life of angels is so noble, a fable that it sounds exciting - until it actually happens.
> 
> Crystal Shade: Angeni, Volume 1 explores the early life of a young daydreaming soul who is destined to reveal the forgotten past of her home world and to seek the answer for to the eternal question; what the legendary Crystal Shade really is.


I'm sorry if this turned into a critique thread. I really wasn't trying to do that! I just immediately saw reasons as to why I wouldn't purchase your book, and I suspect a lot of people would feel the same. I forget who said that, as indie authors, we have to remove all the reasons why people WON'T buy our book up front. That means an incredible hook, a great cover, editing, a catchy blurb, etc.

Tell the reader more about what the Crystal Shade is. Is it a Ragnarok? Implosion of the sun? Death of all first born children? Give us a hook. I am still unclear about what the story is so far. Is it that Grace has trained as a warrior for doomsday, but doomsday never came? Until one day it...came?

What is your genre? You mention a 'world' - is this fantasy on a quasi-earth, or SF in a distant future? I'm just trying to mentally place it. Your covers make me think Final Fantasy, and while that's not a bad thing, if that's not the sort of genre you're looking to lean toward, we might be going about this all wrong.

At any rate, I sincerely hope this is helping you! I know English isn't your first language so that's why I wanted to talk about the blurb a bit more and see if that wouldn't help things.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

You are welcome.  I am glad that you understand that I am not trying to be mean to you. Now that I know that you are Hungarian, I understand that there could very easily be a difference in your posts and the book.  I admire anyone who speaks or writes in more than one language.  I have tried to learn some French and it is difficult.   I truly hope everything turns out well for you.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> Tell the reader more about what the Crystal Shade is. Is it a Ragnarok? Implosion of the sun? Death of all first born children? Give us a hook. I am still unclear about what the story is so far. Is it that Grace has trained as a warrior for doomsday, but doomsday never came? Until one day it...came?
> 
> What is your genre? You mention a 'world' - is this fantasy on a quasi-earth, or SF in a distant future? I'm just trying to mentally place it.


Blurbs are hard for me, and the reason why is that I'm too vague. I don't want to give spoilers. But questions like these really help me find out what really NEEDS to be spelled out in my blurbs. I totally agree with these questions. Give the readers more information so they can determine if this book is for them.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

jillmyles said:


> I'm sorry if this turned into a critique thread. I really wasn't trying to do that! I just immediately saw reasons as to why I wouldn't purchase your book, and I suspect a lot of people would feel the same. I forget who said that, as indie authors, we have to remove all the reasons why people WON'T buy our book up front. That means an incredible hook, a great cover, editing, a catchy blurb, etc.


Please don't say sorry, when you're right. I put up this thread, so now I have to face the consequences. 



> Tell the reader more about what the Crystal Shade is. Is it a Ragnarok? Implosion of the sun? Death of all first born children? Give us a hook. I am still unclear about what the story is so far. Is it that Grace has trained as a warrior for doomsday, but doomsday never came? Until one day it...came?


This is what I wanted to avoid in the description, all these doomsday, trained as a warrior cliches. The story is also trying to avoid all these cliches and the Crystal Shade actually has plenty meaning in the book (Around four+ and the heroine must learn what the true meaning is.). It can be a religion or the name of the end times. It can be everything or nothing, or anything in between.



> What is your genre? You mention a 'world' - is this fantasy on a quasi-earth, or SF in a distant future? I'm just trying to mentally place it. Your covers make me think Final Fantasy, and while that's not a bad thing, if that's not the sort of genre you're looking to lean toward, we might be going about this all wrong.


Now the genre is difficult. It has fantasy, science fiction, ya elements... Basically it's life itself. You can't give life a category. I call it Epic / YA fantasy, but it doesn't cover the truth either. It's not a standard fantasy as it doesn't have knights, dwarves, elves, nothing similar in it. The angels and demons also something else what about readers used to read (They also have a different name.). It's a brand new world, a huge experiment and this is giving the difficulty in introducing it perfectly.



> At any rate, I sincerely hope this is helping you! I know English isn't your first language so that's why I wanted to talk about the blurb a bit more and see if that wouldn't help things.


Everything helps as right now, I'm out of ideas. All I can say is; thank you.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

You know, you could totally call it a YA Science Fantasy. That immediately makes me think of Final Fantasy, etc., and it lets readers know exactly what they are getting. This is a fantastical setting with some science fiction elements, and it's aimed at a YA audience.

I would go back to your blurb and start again.

_Grace is a seven year old warrior training for the end of times, the legendary event known as the Crystal Shade. No one thinks the Crystal Shade will ever come, until the day a demon shows up on her doorstep and she realizes the old tales might have a hint of truth to them. Now Grace's world is filled with unicorns and evil! And she must find a way to stop the Crystal Shade before it's too late._

Or something along those lines. You get the idea. Tell us who the hero is. Tell us what happens to the hero that will make us want to read! And then tell us what awful things will happen to the hero if they can't save the day. You're not trying to sell the whole story. You are selling this book - JUST THIS ONE - and if we love the story, we will naturally read on. But you have to give people key words to look for in the blurb of things they love. Things like "angels" or "mysterious new boy" or "doomsday" or "magic portal" etc. I firmly believe most people skim blurbs looking for something to pique their interest. Give them those keywords that will pique their interest and make them sample!

And I just wanted to say that you have a great attitude about this! Thanks for letting us help you pick apart the blurb.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

jillmyles said:


> You know, you could totally call it a YA Science Fantasy. That immediately makes me think of Final Fantasy, etc., and it lets readers know exactly what they are getting. This is a fantastical setting with some science fiction elements, and it's aimed at a YA audience.


Yeah, it's something like Final Fantasy as Crystal Shade has no frontiers. It can play anytime in every possible setting. The Angeni series has a 80% fantasy and 2% sci-fi setting.



> _Grace is a seven year old warrior training for the end of times, the legendary event known as the Crystal Shade. No one thinks the Crystal Shade will ever come, until the day a demon shows up on her doorstep and she realizes the old tales might have a hint of truth to them. Now Grace's world is filled with unicorns and evil! And she must find a way to stop the Crystal Shade before it's too late._


I get the idea, and usually people want to see this into the blurb, all these "she has a warrior training", "the evil comes", "doomsday", etc, etc... The twist is, none of these are happening in the story, yet all does. I know it doesn't make sense as you read these line, but it does. And yes, you're right. I'm not trying to sell the whole story as it's telling the story of a life. How do you tell a whole life from the beginning to the end in few sentences? That is the hardest. That's the reason I try to break up to smaller chunks, even the storyline.



> Give them those keywords that will pique their interest and make them sample!


Now that's a good idea.



> And I just wanted to say that you have a great attitude about this!


If the act of desperation is a great attitude, that now I have the greatest attitude of all.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Guardian said:


> This is what I wanted to avoid in the description, all these doomsday, trained as a warrior cliches. The story is also trying to avoid all these cliches and the Crystal Shade actually has plenty meaning in the book (Around four+ and the heroine must learn what the true meaning is.). It can be a religion or the name of the end times. It can be everything or nothing, or anything in between.


I totally understand this instinct, but I think even if your blurb follows the standard dramatic cliches--the girl's been trained all her life to save the world, but once the moment arrives, she discovers no training in the world could have prepared her for the truth of the Crystal Shade yadda yadda--the specifics of your world and its characters will make it un-cliched.

With rare exceptions, a compelling blurb tells the reader about the characters, the setting, and the stakes. Readers then judge for themselves whether they want to explore further. I'm not sure whether anyone takes a more abstract declarative pitch ("This is an original story the likes of which you've never seen" or whatever) all that seriously.

I like the revised blurb you put up a few posts back. It needs to be smoothed out into more natural English, but I think it has a much better shot at helping you sell.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> Your first four months slaughters my first four months.
> 
> It took me four years to get where I am, and it could have taken much longer. Lower your prices, give everything away until you have fans, and do it because you love it, not because you hope to get rich.
> 
> Just my opinion. I know there's a lot of differing advice out there. All I have are my anecdotal experiences.


I guess I think the first four months is not indicative of any long-term success or failure. And, I agree with Hugh, if you're doing it to get rich, hedge funds are a better bet.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> the girl's been trained all her life to save the world, but once the moment arrives, she discovers no training in the world could have prepared her for the truth of the Crystal Shade yadda yadda--the specifics of your world and its characters will make it un-cliched.


See? This is what about I talked above. Everyone wants to see this into this world, but the girl never was trained to save the world... yet she was trained. There are many contradictions which is actually caused that this story is telling the two lives, but one character (There is a strange transition in Chapter 3.). The two lives are also two different lives, one is the life of a girl, the other is the life of a woman. But the character is the very same.



> With rare exceptions, a compelling blurb tells the reader about the characters, the setting, and the stakes. Readers then judge for themselves whether they want to explore further. I'm not sure whether anyone takes a more abstract declarative pitch ("This is an original story the likes of which you've never seen" or whatever) all that seriously.


Good advice.



> I like the revised blurb you put up a few posts back. It needs to be smoothed out into more natural English, but I think it has a much better shot at helping you sell.


Which one? The one what I posted on 07:48:08 AM?


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Jon Olson said:


> I guess I think the first four months is not indicative of any long-term success or failure. And, I agree with Hugh, if you're doing it to get rich, hedge funds are a better bet.


I hate money. I've never written for money. But there is one thing what I hate much more and that's failure. And I don't like if I don't know the source of the failure. All I want is to tell this story to more and more people, because if I won't tell it who would?


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

From a marketing efficacy stand point, you could try to analyze some of the following and consider (especially in keeping with the advice about grammar and spelling and pricing seeming high) what may or may not be working, which may change your understanding of your results some:

Look at your website analytics, how many page views were you getting per day? Where were they coming from. Your landing pages that direct to Amazon, what are the bounce and exit rates? Etc.
Looking at your Facebook Insights, how many: likes per day? People talking per day? Reach?
Etc.

If you can go back and see a traffic increase, spike or arc, but you aren't getting conversions, then you can assume that your marketing efforts were not the problem. If you have high traffic and high engagement on your social media, your contests, and your website, but you aren't converting to sales, then you may have the evidence you need that the problem is not that the marketing doesn't work. Which means the problem is at the "local" level, i.e., your book cover, the blurb, the inside sample (grammar/spelling/voice), or the price. 

Just a thought. I know sales are complicated (and it's insane that Amazon won't let us know where traffic to our book pages comes from... making marketing nearly a blind enterprise--unless they do and I haven't figured out where that information is), but all you can do is control for what you can control for, and then do as much A/B testing as you can.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Guardian said:


> See? This is what about I talked above. Everyone wants to see this into this world, but the girl never was trained to save the world... yet she was trained. There are many contradictions which is actually caused that this story is telling the two lives, but one character (There is a strange transition in Chapter 3.). The two lives are also two different lives, one is the life of a girl, the other is the life of a woman. But the character is the very same.


Well, I don't know the particular ins and outs here. With respect, I think you're getting hung up on trying to prove how your book is different and defies expectations. I think you should just tell us about the specifics of the plot and let the rest speak for itself. I mean, of course your book is far more complex than some silly little blurb can ever express. That's why it took 100,000 words to write and not 100. 

Yes, I liked the 07:48:08 AM blurb. I should stop procrastinating for a bit, but I'll try to take a closer look at it shortly and see if I can be of any help.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

John Daulton said:


> Look at your website analytics, how many page views were you getting per day?


This is the only thing what I haven't done since the release. Around the release I've abandoned one practice which draw people to the sites. Stupid me.  Thanks!



> Looking at your Facebook Insights, how many: likes per day? People talking per day? Reach?
> Etc.


Since Facebook has modified the FB pages, every visit, talk, likes per day dropped by +80-85% (Their so called improvements almost killed the visibility of every fan page, including mine. I've gathered 500 fans around 2-3 months. After the FB improvement I've gathered the other 100 under 4+ months.).



> If you have high traffic and high engagement on your social media, your contests, and your website, but you aren't converting to sales, then you may have the evidence you need that the problem is not that the marketing doesn't work. Which means the problem is at the "local" level, i.e., your book cover, the blurb, the inside sample (grammar/spelling/voice), or the price.


Well, this is going to be the program of the next week. 



> Just a thought. I know sales are complicated (and it's insane that Amazon won't let us know where traffic to our book pages comes from... making marketing nearly a blind enterprise), but all you can do it control for what you can control for and do as much A/B testing as you can.


Yes, this is a blind enterprise and it's making it harder with every so called improvement (This includes the FB and other "improvements".).


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Well, I don't know the particular ins and outs here. With respect, I think you're getting hung up on trying to prove how your book is different and defies expectations. I think you should just tell us about the specifics of the plot and let the rest speak for itself. I mean, of course your book is far more complex than some silly little blurb can ever express. That's why it took 100,000 words to write and not 100.


 Yeah, it seems I'm falling into the "Every writer protects his work" syndrome. I should drop this. However that's true that the plot is not an easy A to B plot line, which is making this a bit harder. And if I write the blurb to an A to B description there is the possibility that the reader won't get what for he paid and will be disappointed.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I know you don't want to be cliche, you want your book to be different. However, if the book is TOO different, it won't interest readers. Readers like reading what they're familiar with.

Saying things like "the girl never was trained to save the world... yet she was trained" and "It can be everything or nothing, or anything in between" don't help people get a grasp on what the book is about. Sounds like the book is confusing and doesn't make sense.

You can write a book that doesn't fall into the normal realm of book plots, but it might be hard to sell. People like familiar things.


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## Ras Ashcroft (Feb 8, 2012)

Victorine said:


> You can write a book that doesn't fall into the normal realm of book plots, but it might be hard to sell. People like familiar things.


Kinda reminds me of something I saw on Pinterest recently.










(The batman one is kind of odd though)


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Victorine said:


> I know you don't want to be cliche, you want your book to be different. However, if the book is TOO different, it won't interest readers. Readers like reading what they're familiar with.


The best is, its still familiar to readers. That's what Crystal Shade is all about. A brand new world with new things, new storyline, yet somehow it's still familiar. That's the trick. This was the reason for the six years long development, to balance this particular element in the story.



> Saying things like "the girl never was trained to save the world... yet she was trained" and "It can be everything or nothing, or anything in between" don't help people get a grasp on what the book is about. Sounds like the book is confusing and doesn't make sense.


Yeah, I know how does it sounds, and the strangest is, it makes sense.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Ras Ashcroft said:


> Kinda reminds me of something I saw on Pinterest recently.


LOL. This made my day now. Now, this is the reason why it's harder to sell this beauty, because it's not anything like this.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Guardian said:


> Yeah, it seems I'm falling into the "Every writer protects his work" syndrome. I should drop this. However that's true that the plot is not an easy A to B plot line, which is making this a bit harder. And if I write the blurb to an A to B description there is the possibility that the reader won't get what for he paid and will be disappointed.


Well, at least he'll have bought it in the first place. 

That sounds challenging. If you feel like workshopping it, maybe you should try writing as straightforward an A to B blurb as you can, then post it here along with your concerns about why it could be misleading? Maybe the board can help find a happy medium.


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

Ras Ashcroft said:


> Kinda reminds me of something I saw on Pinterest recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That made me think of this Kurt Vonnegut video on the Shapes of Stories. lol.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

A blurb is just a mini story: a character, in a situation, with a problem. Follow that with what I call "expectation telling" that indicates what kind of book the reader can expect. It doesn't have to be brilliant, it has to be enticing and it has to give a realistic impression of what reading the book will be about. Here is our Victorine Lieske's blurb for Not What She Seems, one of the most successful indie books of all times. I'm going to mark C, S, P, and E for each time we see character, situation, problem, and expectation, respective.



> Steven Ashton, a billionaire from New York(C), and Emily Grant, on the run from the law(C)...and when they meet he can't help falling for her. (S) What he doesn't know is that interfering in her life will put his own life in danger.(P)
> 
> When billionaire Steven Ashton couldn't stand his high society social life anymore, he left the stress of New York on a vacation for his soul.(S) The need to meet real down to earth people led him to a small Nebraska town.(S) He didn't want to lie about who he was, but he couldn't exactly tell them the truth.(P)
> 
> ...


Now, this is not the _only _thing that has helped this book sell over 100,000 copies, but with a confusing, off-putting blurb, it's safe to say that she wouldn't be where she is.

Note that this is formula, but so what? There's a formula for making a cake, too, but within the realm of possible cakes there are zillions of possibilities, from disgusting, to comforting, to decadent, to sublime.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Just for the record, I think that all book blurbs suck.

Why is it that we authors spend so much time building drama in our books, but when it comes to the blurb, it suddenly sounds like a book report?

I tried to break the mold a little bit with mine, but I'm always fiddling with it and don't claim to have written "the perfect blurb." But at this point, I have to say that 99% of the time I buy a book despite the blurb, not because of it, and some are quite good books!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Jan Strnad said:


> Just for the record, I think that all book blurbs suck. Why is it that we authors spend so much time building drama in our books, but when it comes to the blurb, it suddenly sounds like a book report?


My thoughts exactly and maybe this is the reason I suck so much in writing book blurbs. Crystal Shade is around 450k long (All three volumes). Only the first volume is 147k long. It has that length with a reason. If I would want to write something in 2-400 words, I would write a short story. 



> I tried to break the mold a little bit with mine, but I'm always fiddling with it and don't claim to have written "the perfect blurb." But at this point, I have to say that 99% of the time I buy a book despite the blurb, not because of it, and some are quite good books!


When I write the blurb I always feel I kill my story with it. The best is, the blurb at 07:48:08 AM is the one which describes my book perfectly, even if it sounds so strange. But that one tells the basics without spoiling anything.

Well. There was always one thing what I always hated in screenwriting; writing a logline. Now, writing a blurb seems the same.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about your poor results, but you are on the start of your journey and this is only a beginning (or so I like to console myself ).
I don't really market my books, but I did wrote a teaser (slices of life of side characters) for my trilogy which is available for free and I think that 's what brings me a few sells every month. So reading about what you have done, I can only admire you.

And for the blurb since my grammar is really bad and I'm bad at writing them too, I can't help you with that, but I have discovered a great article on that. It's about writing a short synopsis for query letters but it works great as blurb too. I recommend you read it, it might help you. http://mikewellsblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/secret-formula-for-creating-short.html

An excerpt from A "Secret" Formula for Creating a Short Synopsis for Your Book by Mike Wells:


> Each and every story is composed of the same five basic elements. If you can identify them in their purest, simplest forms, you will be well on your way to writing a good two-sentence synopsis of your book, regardless of its length or complexity.
> The five elements are: a (1) hero who finds himself stuck in a (2) situation from which he wants to free himself by achieving a (3) goal. However, there is a (4) villain who wants to stop him from this, and if he's successful, will cause the hero to experience a (5) disaster.


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> A blurb is just a mini story: a character, in a situation, with a problem. Follow that with what I call "expectation telling" that indicates what kind of book the reader can expect. It doesn't have to be brilliant, it has to be enticing and it has to give a realistic impression of what reading the book will be about. Here is our Victorine Lieske's blurb for Not What She Seems, one of the most successful indie books of all times. I'm going to mark C, S, P, and E for each time we see character, situation, problem, and expectation, respective.
> 
> Now, this is not the _only _thing that has helped this book sell over 100,000 copies, but with a confusing, off-putting blurb, it's safe to say that she wouldn't be where she is.
> 
> Note that this is formula, but so what? There's a formula for making a cake, too, but within the realm of possible cakes there are zillions of possibilities, from disgusting, to comforting, to decadent, to sublime.


This, I think, is strong advice. It speaks to a marketing principle that is about asking: What does the CUSTOMER want? I think it is easy as writers to get caught up in what WE think our story is about, or what WE want people to know or not know, etc. When writing the blurb, try to put yourself in the customer/reader's shoes. What do THEY get? Is what they get what they want? If not, reshape the blurb until it is.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

John Daulton said:


> This, I think, is strong advice. It speaks to a marketing principle that is about asking: What does the CUSTOMER want? I think it is easy as writers to get caught up in what WE think our story is about, or what WE want people to know or not know, etc. When writing the blurb, try to put yourself in the customer/reader's shoes. What do THEY get? Is what they get what they want? If not, reshape the blurb until it is.


This is a really good advice, John. And maybe this is what I forgot.



elalond said:


> An excerpt from A "Secret" Formula for Creating a Short Synopsis for Your Book by Mike Wells:


Thanks. I'll try to setup the next blurb based on this one.


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

Just a quick observation after reading a couple of the responses. I've seen your sales page and blurb and still have no real sense of what your book is about. The blurb is, well, not great - far too vague and replete with punctuation errors. And 147,000 words? It might seem to you that this is giving the customer more for his dollar, but frankly, it's off-putting to me. Even if I knew your work and loved everything you'd written previously, I wouldn't want to get locked into a book of that length. And at five clams, but price is still high relative to authors I do know and love.

In short -

Give it to me straight. Your blurb should tell me the genre in no uncertain terms. Give me the "set up." Who is the protagonist, what happens to him or her to spark the story and why should I care? What's at stake? And what is the "strange attractor?" What is the unique or ingenious aspect of your story that makes it a "must read?" And your word count and price should be in line with what your competitors are doing. Wouldn't you rather sell 500 books at $2.99 than just a few at $4.99?

EDIT: I should have mentioned that the sales page I looked for was for "Crystal Shade Angeni" (or whatever it's called). Also, I should add that your cover art, while very slick, probably isn't helping to sell your books.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

I feel your pain. I really do. Blurbs are incredibly difficult for an author to write because we can't sum it all up. We spend so much time writing the damn thing that being forced to sum it up is like being drawn and quartered. _Just kill me now_ is pretty much how we all feel.

In my opinion, you have to let some of the information out. You can't view everything as a spoiler or as a mystery. Mysteries in a blurb are not what make a person buy your book. Mysteries in a blurb are the purposeful withholding of key information and I see the hand of the author in that. I don't like to ever see the hand of the author.

Intrigue makes a person buy.

If you can't articulate that she was not trained but somehow was (?? you say it makes sense - if that's the case then you should be able to articulate that) and refuse to say that, then what do you expect the reader to go on? You *have* to be able to let go of any ideas of "I'm so different" and get to the story. Let the reader be the judge of how unique your story is. The basic story should be articulated. Her trainging might make sense to you but not to anyone else and it's not at all intriguing to pretend that it should make sense to the reader. All it tells me is that you're refusing to tell me something. I'm only using this as an example because it's the one that was brought up. If the MCs actual journey is to discover this in her character development, then obviously it's not for the blurb in the first place.

If you can't articulate what your book is about, hire someone. Or workshop it. Or something. Because just trying to justify why you can't fit into a mold of some sort isn't going to help make your blurb.

You must be able to articulate what your story is about. If you can't do that, then I assume you don't know. If I assume you don't know then I assume your story doesn't know either.

When I say you must be able to articulate your story, it doesn't mean you must be able to blurb well. I suck at blurbs too. But you really haven't been able to tell us what your story is about either. All you've been able to do is try to tell us why it *isn't* something else.

My advice: work on what it *is* and stop trying to justify what it isn't. Don't be afraid to let some of the surprises out - use those to hook a reader. You need to hook a reader in a blurb and you aren't going to do that by being secretive.

Make it punchy. Make it intriguing. And make sure it makes sense.

I know you aren't asking for critiques but after reading the replies, it doesn't seem like a bad idea.

"Thousands of stars could tell thousands of stories."

Seven year old Grace always dreamt of becoming a guardian angel.; (that's a nice little hook)(like those who guarded and guided her people and prepared to bravely fight in a dreaded mythical event, the Crystal Shade - which never came. BACK STORY = no place for it in a blurb) An even better place to start ----> It's not like Grace ever wanted to see Demons. Or wants to know what evil and darkness is tense problems and awkwardly written(- things that no one ever faced on her world and as the legends says, the Crystal Shade carries within DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS. (-,) <----I'm pretty sure that's not proper in any language) nor does she want to die to be reborn as a guardian (don't know what this means either.. But she thinks the mysterious life of angels is so noble, a fable that it sounds exciting - until it actually happens. (but what's the story? You still haven't gotten there but there are plenty of punctuation and grammatical problems)

Crystal Shade: Angeni, Volume 1 explores the early life of a young daydreaming soul who is destined to reveal the forgotten past of her home world and to seek the answer to the eternal question; what the legendary Crystal Shade really is.


You haven't actually said what your story is about in any part of this. Not one sentence tells me anything I can understand. Tell me something I can understand and use. What's the plot? Who is the MC? She's not some random 7 year old... What are the stakes? Who is the antagonist? What is she actually DOING? Is this a coming of age story? What is this story _about_?

Hopefully between seeing what Victorine said and seeing why yours isn't working you'll be able to pull it all together neatly. You've gotten a lot of really good advice from people here. Sometimes it's easier just to be shown why something isn't working. This is the why there is value in crit groups.

BTW, when I clicked on your book, the price was $11.11.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Ian Marks said:


> Just a quick observation after reading a couple of the responses. I've seen your sales page and blurb and still have no real sense of what your book is about. The blurb is, well, not great - far too vague and replete with punctuation errors. And 147,000 words? It might seem to you that this is giving the customer more for his dollar, but frankly, it's off-putting to me. Even if I knew your work and loved everything you'd written previously, I wouldn't want to get locked into a book of that length. And at five clams, but price is still high relative to authors I do know and love.


This is the reason why I started to release this fantasy in an episodic release. (It's the second book in my signature.). So people may buy it in it's full length or may buy it in an episodic form. For my luck the storytelling of this fantasy gave me the chance to do this episodic release and with this, even with the Episodic release, the readers may get smaller, but full story chunks. However, this fantasy is a slow read, so it's not for everyone. Hmmmm. Maybe I should add this warning to the blurb as well. 



> Give it to me straight. Your blurb should tell me the genre in no uncertain terms. Give me the "set up." Who is the protagonist, what happens to him or her to spark the story and why should I care? What's at stake? And what is the "strange attractor?" What is the unique or ingenious aspect of your story that makes it a "must read?" And your word count and price should be in line with what your competitors are doing. Wouldn't you rather sell 500 books at $2.99 than just a few at $4.99?


As you see I have three + one books in different prices and different genre. Fantasy - $4.99 - $8.88, Noir - $0.99 - $1.33, Science-Fiction - $0.99, Episodic fantasy - $1.33... and none of them sells. So first I would be glad if any of them would sell in 10 or 50 units even on the $0.99 price, but none of them sells at all.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Cheryl M. said:


> I feel your pain. I really do. Blurbs are incredibly difficult for an author to write because we can't sum it all up. We spend so much time writing the d*mn thing that being forced to sum it up is like being drawn and quartered. _Just kill me now_ is pretty much how we all feel.


 Yep, this is the feeling. And thanks Cheryl. I see now what could be the problem. Just a question; how do you write the antagonist in the blurb if life and it's challenges are the real antagonists?



> BTW, when I clicked on your book, the price was $11.11.


That's the paperback edition. The Kindle edition is now reduced to $4.99.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I think you've gotten a lot of excellent advice and the price was probably your biggest barrier to sales. That said, I do recommend that you have another editor go through the manuscript with a critical eye toward your dialogue tags. I skimmed the first few pages and those really jumped out at me as problematic. 

Good luck!


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Monique said:


> I think you've gotten a lot of excellent advice and the price was probably your biggest barrier to sales. That said, I do recommend that you have another editor go through the manuscript with a critical eye toward your dialogue tags. I skimmed the first few pages and those really jumped out at me as problematic.


What is the problem with the dialogue tags? Could you give me an example? I'm asking this, because this book was read by bloggers and some reviewers in the past (The first three chapters was reviewed and got great preview articles) and no one ever said anything regarding the d-tags.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

From what you're saying about not wanting to give too much of the plot away and yet it being impossible to blurb properly without doing so - I immediately thought of Hexwood, by Diana Wynne Jones, since I couldn't imagine how that could be blurbed without spoilers. I know that I spent the first half of the book wondering what the heck was going on!

I looked it up on Amazon & it looks as if, for this listing anyway, they came up with something decidingly un-enticing: http://www.amazon.com/Hexwood-Diana-Wynne-Jones/dp/006029888X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330802499&sr=8-1

One of the editorial reviews (the first one) majorly spoilers one of the most important plot points, namely, key information relating to the heroine (which may or may not be similar to the way you are dealing with your heroine.) Which in turn destroys the confusion that you feel when reading it for the first time without spoilers. I appreciate it's hard to review but I think that reviewer could perhaps have found a way to do it without ruining the plot.

If you read the blurb, the editorial reviews and the customer reviews, you might get some ideas on how to try and word a decent blurb for a cryptic plot, by working out what would tempt you to want to read more.

Edited to add: This review, for example, does a better job of selling the book than the official blurb: http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ED9HBB4EMTIC/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=006029888X&nodeID=283155&tag=&linkCode=


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Guardian said:


> What is the problem with the dialogue tags? Could you give me an example? I'm asking this, because this book was read by bloggers and some reviewers in the past (The first three chapters got preview articles) and no one ever said anything regarding the d-tags.


"I got you," the old man crowed...
"No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously...

"You may consider yourself a prisoner of the Knight of the Light," the young boy proclaimed...

I don't believe that all adverbs are the work of the Devil or that every tag should be "said", but I do think there are far too many tags drawing attention to themselves and repeating info we should already have from the context and dialogue.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Guardian said:


> how do you write the antagonist in the blurb if life and it's challenges are the real antagonists?


This is where _you _need to know what your story is. The antagonist is never just life itself. You'r MC has to learn _something_ in the book.

I think you might want to spend some time really looking at your plot. Write yourself a little bullet point outline of all the plots. Your main plot, your subplots, your character arcs, each character's goals, etc.

The antagonist is *never* life itself. Not even in a coming of age story. There is always something to overcome or there's no reason for the story. Who is lying? Who said the crystal shade should come? Why did they believe it? How does she find out the truth about it? What got her started on even looking? If you think the antagonist is life then you need to dig deeper into your story.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Monique said:


> I don't believe that all adverbs are the work of the Devil or that every tag should be "said", but I do think there are far too many tags drawing attention to themselves and repeating info we should already have from the context and dialogue.


Oh, those ones. No, they're not the work of the Devil. They're my work. However sometimes I'm a little Devil *evil grin*.  I directly avoid "said" where I can, because I love to give more emotion to the characters. It's my writing style and it's also the mix of Hungarian and English literature (Mostly Hungarian.). In my language we love to express ourselves as we have a really rich language. Maybe this is the only element what I don't really want to change. Also, check this sentence. You get two different visuals with and without d-tags.

"No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously. (Here you can imagine the character completely. With the victorious and shout add-on you get a complex and detailed picture)
"No! We got you!" the little girl said. (Here you get a black and white image about the character)

Those who have read Crystal Shade liked this part, because these d-tags and visual descriptions made the story much more colorful (However it also made it to a slower read. But I was well aware of this and I took the risk. But because of these d-tags you always do know what a character feel or do (And this is also really important in this story.).


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Guardian said:


> Oh, those ones. No, they're not the work of the Devil. They're my work. However sometimes I'm a little Devil *evil grin*.  I directly avoid "said" where I can, because I love to give more emotion to the characters. It's my writing style and it's also the mix of Hungarian and English literature (Mostly Hungarian.). In my language we love to express ourselves as we have a really rich language. Maybe this is the only element what I don't really want to change. Also, check this sentence. You get two different visuals with and without d-tags.
> 
> "No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously. (Here you can imagine the character completely. With the victorious and shout add-on you get a complex and detailed picture)
> "No! We got you!" the little girl said. (Here you get a black and white image about the character)
> ...


I feel exactly the opposite. You're needlessly repeating information and pulling me OUT of the story. It's like reading with an echo. YMMV.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Cheryl M. said:


> You'r MC has to learn _something_ in the book.


She has to learn how to live as that's one of the key in the plot. The protagonist must learn what life really is.



> The antagonist is *never* life itself.


It is in this case. And actually life is always an antagonist as that's the only thing which always can defeat you and always present.



> Not even in a coming of age story. There is always something to overcome or there's no reason for the story. Who is lying? Who said the crystal shade should come? Why did they believe it? How does she find out the truth about it? What got her started on even looking? If you think the antagonist is life then you need to dig deeper into your story.


Life is actually a collecting element for everything in this story. Everything has a brilliance and shadow and this book is presenting this through the eyes of the heroine. Dreams, nature, love, hate, belief, actions, everything has a light and a shaded part. And actually this is one of the meaning of the title. We're seeing the brilliance and shade, light and dark side of everything via the eyes of the heroine.

In most of the books authors trying to reduce the problem to one or two source point; who is lying, who wants to destroy the world, etc, etc... In Crystal Shade there are plenty elements which is originating from life itself. And each of the problems are changing chapter by chapter. In CS there is no "Who is lying" or "Who wants to destroy the world". That's what I wanted to avoid and this is why this book is so long as there are multiple challenges that with the protagonist have to face and defeat. Here, there is no Voldemort who is the main antagonist. Here, life, people's foolishness and the world is the true and real protagonist.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Guardian said:


> Oh, those ones. No, they're not the work of the Devil. They're my work. However sometimes I'm a little Devil *evil grin*.  I directly avoid "said" where I can, because I love to give more emotion to the characters. It's my writing style and it's also the mix of Hungarian and English literature (Mostly Hungarian.). In my language we love to express ourselves as we have a really rich language. Maybe this is the only element what I don't really want to change. Also, check this sentence. You get two different visuals with and without d-tags.
> 
> "No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously. (Here you can imagine the character completely. With the victorious and shout add-on you get a complex and detailed picture)
> "No! We got you!" the little girl said. (Here you get a black and white image about the character)


No, you get a black and white character because you left the sentence stale. An adverb doesn't do anything to make a sentence more rich. It just adds an adverb.

Watch the difference:

"No!" She pounded her fists in the air, cackling like a sea-witch. "We got you!"
The other girls scattered in every direction, pigtails flying around and whipping their cheeks. A blur of pink tackled the sea-witch's legs. "Nu uh! _We_ got _you_!" They fell into a giggly pile of taffeta and lace.

I'm not claiming that my example is genius, I'm just saying that it evokes a lot more emotion than an adverb. Adverbs don't evoke anything.

Being Hungarian doesn't mean the language is richer than any other. Good writing is evocative no matter what language it's in. I'm sure that even in Hungarian, showing is still better than telling.

There's a time and a place for which you choose (showing vs. telling). Dialog tags are rarely the place for an adverb. But again, I honestly believe that it's hard to understand until someone shows the difference. Until someone picks apart what you've written and shows you how to make it better, we don't internalize it. We just see comments as words on a page that we think we understand but in the end, don't really get it. So we blow it off or we think we're doing it right because we got rid of the "was" or the -ly but in reality, it's still not very good. In my experience, most people don't really understand it until someone rips you a new one with your own work. Seeing the difference in writing is always eye opening and much more effective as a learning tool. But it's also harder for a writer to deal with. It feels awful. It feels like criticism and it hurts. It feels like an attack. It feels like it's all negative. Unfortunately, it's also the only way for most people to really grasp what things mean because so many people are visual learners. They don't really get it until they see it.


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## NRWick (Mar 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> "No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously. (Here you can imagine the character completely. With the victorious and shout add-on you get a complex and detailed picture)
> "No! We got you!" the little girl said. (Here you get a black and white image about the character)


I agree with Monique and disagree with what you have placed in parenthesis. I'll explain why in a second, but I want to say that even though I disagree with your reasoning, it's your book and your writing style. So, take my comments with a grain of salt, I guess.

You claim that by saying that the girl shouted victoriously paints a more detailed picture, but it really doesn't. You have exclamation points already. Clearly she is shouting. If you want to emphasis the victoriously part, them maybe show how she is shouting. You don't have to use said. For example:

The little girl grinned with triumph. "No! We got you!"

or if there are weapons involved:

The little girl jabbed her gun at them. "No! We got you!"

Sorry, I don't know what's happening surrounding this scene, so my examples may not work perfectly for what's happening. However, my point remains. I painted a picture without using dialogue tags and without making it "black and white" like you mentioned using said does.

[EDIT: Oops! I see Cheryl beat me to it. Ah well.]


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Guardian, you said you write award winning screenplays, so look at your books blurb as a screenplay logline, where one sentence has to sum up the entire screenplay story. Fortunately for a book blurb you can have more than one sentence. You want to interest readers in your story and hook them.

examples:

"High noon in outer space." _Outland_

"An Epic tale of a 1940s New York Mafia family and their struggle to protect their empire, as the leadership switches from the father to his youngest son." _The Godfather_

"When a Roman general is betrayed and his family murdered by an evil prince, he returns to Rome as a gladiator for revenge." _Gladiator_


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Guardian said:


> She has to learn how to live as that's one of the key in the plot. The protagonist must learn what life really is.
> It is in this case. And actually life is always an antagonist as that's the only thing which always can defeat you and always present.
> Life is actually a collecting element for everything in this story. Everything has a brilliance and shadow and this book is presenting this through the eyes of the heroine. Dreams, nature, love, hate, belief, actions, everything has a light and a shaded part. And actually this is one of the meaning of the title. We're seeing the brilliance and shade, light and dark side of everything via the eyes of the heroine.
> 
> In most of the books authors trying to reduce the problem to one or two source point; who is lying, who wants to destroy the world, etc, etc... In Crystal Shade there are plenty elements which is originating from life itself. And each of the problems are changing chapter by chapter. In CS there is no "Who is lying" or "Who wants to destroy the world". That's what I wanted to avoid and this is why this book is so long as there are multiple challenges that with the protagonist have to face and defeat. Here, there is no Voldemort who is the main antagonist. Here, life, people's foolishness and the world is the true and real protagonist.


There doesnt' have to be a Voldemoort. There isn't one in Catcher in the Rye and yet there is still an antagonist. There isn't one in many many books. There has to be a *reason* for the challenges they face and defeat. You said it yourself that they are there. So what is it? But there must be a plot. And if you can't articulate it, then you have bigger problems.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Cheryl M. said:


> I'm not claiming that my example is genius, I'm just saying that it evokes a lot more emotion than an adverb. Adverbs don't evoke anything.


I'm not using the adverbs to evoke emotions, but to expand the perception and the visuals which belongs to the dialogue. Emotion comes from the dialogue, visual perception comes from dialogue or expanded d-tag (It may affect the flow.). This is my opinion, but that doesn't mean I'm right.



> Being Hungarian doesn't mean the language is richer than any other.


Hungarian is one of the richest and most complex language on the planet. We have plenty words and has rules which is not even existing in English. However that's true. Showing is still better than telling, but if you tell it, tell it colorful where it's possible. That's what I want to solve in your language, but with a Hungarian presentation what I don't really want to drop (However that doesn't mean I'm good in this. I just try.  ).



> Dialog tags are rarely the place for an adverb.


Rarely, but not never.



> Unfortunately, it's also the only way for most people to really grasp what things mean because so many people are visual learners. They don't really get it until they see it.


Now that's so true. I agree with this.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> Guardian, you said you write award winning screenplays, so look at your books blurb as a screenplay logline, where one sentence has to sum up the entire screenplay story.


If you read back I also mentioned somewhere that the only thing what I hated in my whole life is the logline. 



Cheryl M. said:


> There doesnt' have to be a Voldemoort. There isn't one in Catcher in the Rye and yet there is still an antagonist. There isn't one in many many books. There has to be a *reason* for the challenges they face and defeat. You said it yourself that they are there. So what is it? But there must be a plot. And if you can't articulate it, then you have bigger problems.


What is the plot of "life"? What is the reason for all the challenges we're facing "day by day"? Is there a real reason or we're making all of them up? If you can summarize what life is, what the reasons of all it's challenges in 200 words, I can tell what Crystal Shade is all about? Life is an adventure. And this story is about a life with all it's challenges from the beginning to the end.

Or maybe I'm making this tooooooooooo complicated.


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

I will PM you.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

Dam_Good said:


> I will PM you.


Okay.


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

Guardian said:


> Here is an analysis of my self publishing adventure, my four months long test run, where I've followed the tips and advises of blogs, 99 cent millionaires, Amazon bestseller authors, etc, etc... I'm trying to summarize everything, so you may decide what may work and what does not. This includes pretty covers, Amazon tag numbers, pricing, where the books were advertised, etc, etc&#8230; So, here is an analysis summary for newbies just to see an other side of this business and not just the illusionary, hyped and presumably paid "How to become a millionaire-billionaire from ebooks." stories and advertisements what we hear day by day. First, I give you the book details and then in the spoiler you'll find the true sales results.
> 
> _*Personal note:*_ all these books have a pro story, memorable, easy to recognize cover and professional editing.
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I wouldn't thrown in the towel after 4 months. My first year I only sold 250 books and year 2 about 1,250. Finally in year 3 my sales are much better. I sold 350 in just January. Most things take a lot of work, of course it helps if you go into the business knowing a bunch first and don't make all the mistakes I did, but live and learn.


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## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

Guardian said:


> If you read back I also mentioned somewhere that the only thing what I hated in my whole life is the logline.
> What is the plot of "life"? What is the reason for all the challenges we're facing "day by day"? Is there a real reason or we're making all of them up? If you can summarize what life is, what the reasons of all it's challenges in 200 words, I can tell what Crystal Shade is all about? Life is an adventure. And this story is about a life with all it's challenges from the beginning to the end.
> 
> Or maybe I'm making this tooooooooooo complicated.


Your book can't possibly be about "life." So I think you're definitely making this too complicated.

Your book has to be about some slice of life. Some particular meaning. It does not answer THE question of LIFE. Something happens to someone. Ideally, something comes of the experience. Some new understanding, a particular understanding. If you really think your book is about all of life then A) I can see why you can't write a blurb about it, because the blurb would have to be about a hundred billion pages longer than the book, and 2) you probably bit off more than you can chew, because even the great holy books of all time only barely handle "life" and, despite the depth of brilliance and wisdom in them, they do so clumsily and with such contradiction as to be as much problem and solution most of the time. So, I think having a realistic understanding of what you wrote will help you. I still say, go back to "what's in it for the customer" and get it done from there.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I hate when I see threads like this, when I see someone who is trying so hard and who is having little success in their efforts, and especially when so many others have had such huge success when doing little or nothing to promote or advertise. All I can say is to keep at it. Your chances for growing in sales and exposure can only increase with every day that goes by.

I skimmed the thread a little, and I don't have much time right now. I would like to talk about one example:

"No! We got you!" the little girl shouted victoriously. (Here you can imagine the character completely. With the victorious and shout add-on you get a complex and detailed picture)
"No! We got you!" the little girl said. (Here you get a black and white image about the character)

I would also disagree with the statements in parenthesis, but I would go a step further to say that something like this might be better:

The little girl's mouth curled into a sinister smile. "No! We got you!"

Or something like that. It paints the emotion with action instead of an explicit dialogue tag. If the little girl is the point of view of the scene, something like:

Her body filled with a sensation of accomplishment, a prideful feeling of finally catching him in the act. "No! We got you!"

You don't want to over-do it, of course; sometimes the plain dialogue tag and the statement itself is plenty to convey what's going on.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2012)

amiblackwelder said:


> I wouldn't thrown in the towel after 4 months.


I won't throw in the towel. I've worked six years on Crystal Shade, so I won't give up after four months. However I must admit, sometimes it's really tempting. But I've promised to someone very dear to me that all volumes will be released, so I'll keep my promise. If not for me, for her. For my luck I never break my promises, so I won't give up regardless how tempting it can be. 



BrianKittrell said:


> I hate when I see threads like this, when I see someone who is trying so hard and who is having little success in their efforts, and especially when so many others have had such huge success when doing little or nothing to promote or advertise. All I can say is to keep at it. Your chances for growing in sales and exposure can only increase with every day that goes by.


Hopefully you're right. I just checked my dashboard and I've sold two of my little science fiction in a row. I wish if I would sale just two every day just from this one alone.



> If the little girl is the point of view of the scene, something like: Her body filled with a sensation of accomplishment, a prideful feeling of finally catching him in the act. "No! We got you!"


In CS I'm using a fixed POV with limited floating (Mostly where the descriptions are), but it's mostly fixed on two person, the character that to the girl is speaking (The storyteller, as here the storyteller is actually present) and the winged lady that about the story is all about.



John Daulton said:


> Your book can't possibly be about "life." So I think you're definitely making this too complicated. Your book has to be about some slice of life. Some particular meaning. It does not answer THE question of LIFE. Something happens to someone.


Actually it can be. Slice of life, but a pretty huge slice of life. And yes, something have to happen, the character's evolution, the daily challenges that with she is facing, while she is searching the answer for a question, etc, etc...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Are you asking for why you aren't selling many copies or are you just asking for people to give you a pep talk? I'm not being snippy; I'm asking an honest question. The bulk of your answers to critiques of your work have been defensive and trying to justifying weak writing.

So, if you want help, say so and be willing to accept what's about to come out.
If you don't actually want help and instead want people to tell you it's going to be OK, say so.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> So, after these details and sale numbers, make your own conclusion about what may truly work and what is just a hyped advertisement. As we used to say in my country; Numbers do not lie. Only people do. Opinions also welcomed as I'm curious what did I do wrong. Statistically all three books should sell well above the average, especially the first one, but you see the results.


The cover is lovely, though readability at thumbnail size suffers. The marketing is reasonable. The blurbs needed help and you've gotten it here.

Let's assume the story is great.

That leaves one thing: the writing.

People have different tastes and mine really reflect only one reader. But that reader was drawn (by this thread) to sample the book. The early section with the old man left me entirely cold. It doesn't draw me in to the story. People "proclaim" things and have "countenance"s and it gave me this uneasy sense that it was stiff, formal, _old-fashioned_. That reading it would be work rather than entertainment even if it's a great story. I wonder if perhaps this style is not conducive to the youngish audience you're after?

I pushed on past this little prologue to the character mentioned in the blurb and you hit on my pet peeves. Some people are super-tolerant of it so make of it what you will.... But....  The dialogue tags weighed down by abverbs and _colorful_ tags and people not speaking but "smiling" words at each other drove me to distraction within a page or two. That did me in. I couldn't put up with a whole book of it without some hardcore _trusted_ recommendations telling me ignoring my biases is going to pay off strongly. So a second element of the writing itself that isn't instilling confidence in the sample to push things to a sale?

So if I had to bet, I'd bet the micro-level writing style married with this genre and target audience is your biggest problem.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Are you asking for why you aren't selling many copies or are you just asking for people to give you a pep talk? I'm not being snippy; I'm asking an honest question. The bulk of your answers to critiques of your work have been defensive and trying to justifying weak writing.


Now the problem is that from one set of the people that I've asked is saying it's weak writing and weak blurb, the other half, including some pros, veterans, publishers are saying it's very-very strong, beautiful and elegant (And none of them are my friends or people close to me.) and they've no problem with the blurb at all. I'm not saying that any of you're wrong, and I really appreciate the help, but both sides can't be right either. Here is just two reviews to see what about I'm talking;

"This book is a change from everything I've read recently. The story itself unfolds more gently, the action moving at a slower pace most of the time. The writing is beautiful. Elegant, even." - U.S. reader
"For a first novel from this Author, I'll have to say it's very well written. It's intriguing and thought provoking. It is not a book you can just quickly skim through and read in one night, you have to absorb the words and create the fantasy in your mind." - Australian reader

And some private letter snippets;
"I found your book to be beautifully written." - from a reader who hates fantasy
"It's award winning stuff. I was impressed." - from a publisher
"I've been reading it and it is certainly a page-turner." - from another publisher (I'm negotiating with them in the last months.).

So, of course I'm defending as I hear two completely different and contradicting opinions about the very same book. So maybe it's not that weak. However that's true; Crystal Shade is not for everyone. It's a slower read, and I'm well aware of that as I wrote it to slow for a reason. But making something intentionally slow is not equal with weak writing at all. Crystal Shade is the book that you have to understand. It's not just a soft read for pure entertainment (If you check Pale Moonlight or AHS, their writing style, they're quite different than CS. They're fast reads for entertainment only.).



J. Tanner said:


> People have different tastes and mine really reflect only one reader. But that reader was drawn (by this thread) to sample the book. The early section with the old man left me entirely cold. It doesn't draw me in to the story. People "proclaim" things and have "countenance"s and it gave me this uneasy sense that it was stiff, formal, _old-fashioned_. That reading it would be work rather than entertainment even if it's a great story. I wonder if perhaps this style is not conducive to the youngish audience you're after?


The old fashioned is intentional as readers are capable to understand complex sentences or even complex storyline, if you let them and give them a chance. There is also a line in the book, around page 4-5, which is actually telling this;

_I don't care about a world in a slow, purple prose fairy tale. I care only about the people, little one. Get to the point,_ his own young, impatient voice had declared.
_You, human are so impatient, ignorant, and selfish. What is worse, you're so proud of it,_ a disappointed angelic voice responded. _You believe everything is just about people, yet you don't know anything about the world that surrounding you._

And there is another line from Chapter 4;
"Go ahead! Show them!" he egged Sophus on while he picked up the next book. "Never forget, young souls are dim and impatient; they only understand the action!" his echoing advice came from above, and then he blew the clean book cleaner. "Nowadays imagination is out of fashion."

So as you can see, it's very-very intentional. The slow purple prose is there for a reason. However only Crystal Shade is the harder, slower read from all three. If you check Pale Moonlight, that's a very easy read. It's also error free, just as Anno Humanae Salutis (Reader confirmed.). PM also doesn't have adverbs in the d-tags... actually it doesn't really have much dialogue at all as it's rather an inner monologue (But that one doesn't sell either.). So we have two categories; #1, a complex and harder read with an intentional old fashioned and slower style so it may live beyond it's time (Crystal Shade), #2, two trendy soft reads with less complexity and much faster pacing (Pale Moonlight and AHS). Until this time here I got critiques for Crystal Shade, but not for the other two. Actually I'm wondering on this, because this thread was about the sales of three books, not one.



> So if I had to bet, I'd bet the micro-level writing style married with this genre and target audience is your biggest problem.


That's a possibility. But CS was switched to YA category in the last one month. For three months in was only in the Epic Fantasy category. So right now it could be a possibility, but in the last three months it wasn't even in that category.


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## Spirit Flame (Feb 28, 2012)

I have been following this thread with some interest. There is definitely a conflict between peoples suggestions and your defence against the suggestions.

Reading your last post, I think there is a revelation of sorts. Your'e now torn between two sets of people, The people on here and the reader's/publishers you have cited.

If I recall one of your complaints was regarding your lack of sales on Amazon.

A suggestion would be to balance the suggestions from here and the reviews you have quoted. 

Are those reviews from printed editions?

It may be that the perception from a print edition will be different from e-book as unlike a real life book you can't physically look deeper into an e-book unless you have purchased it.
This might explain may be why you have conflict with defending your writing style?

However the thing you have to keep in mind is that the suggestions on here are for the most part from people who have e-published and can offer experience on the Kindle market.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Another important thing to remember is that many successful authors on here had slow burn starts. http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=18037 is an encouraging thread, you can see some familiar faces posting about how they were doing in the early days.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Spirit Flame said:


> Reading your last post, I think there is a revelation of sorts. Your'e now torn between two sets of people, The people on here and the reader's/publishers you have cited.


Yes. I believe to everyone and I appreciate all these advices. But as you've said I'm now torn between two sets of people. It can't be good and bad at the same time. At least I've never met with this scenario before, yet seemingly it's possible.



> A suggestion would be to balance the suggestions from here and the reviews you have quoted.


I believe you're right. I should find a proper balance. The question is; how?



> Are those reviews from printed editions?


No, from the ebook edition. The two publishers actually had requested CS as they wanted to read it, one just out of curiosity because I was involved in a charity project, the other to get some rights of this world, and this was their observation.



> However the thing you have to keep in mind is that the suggestions on here are for the most part from people who have e-published and can offer experience on the Kindle market.


That's why I shared my experience to learn from others, so they may give some advice as well. But as you see now I have to torn between two contradicting opinion, #1, what I get here and what I really appreciate, #2, what I get live from readers or publishers. As I have said, this scenario is new to me.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Zelah Meyer said:


> Another important thing to remember is that many successful authors on here had slow burn starts. http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=18037 is an encouraging thread, you can see some familiar faces posting about how they were doing in the early days.


Thank you! I'm going to check it out. A little encouragement would definitely boost my spirit.


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## Jim Chaseley (Feb 16, 2012)

My apologies to Guardian, I have nothing to add to the deluge of great advice you're already getting. I agree with Krista, though. Listen, don't defend. You won't change someone's opinion of your written work by exlpaining what you really meant, or how they were really supposed to take a particular sentence.

This is great feedback, I thought people ususally had to pay for this kind of service! Is there a queue I can add my book to?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Jim Chaseley said:


> My apologies to Guardian, I have nothing to add to the deluge of great advice you're already getting. I agree with Krista, though. Listen, don't defend. You won't change someone's opinion of your written work by exlpaining what you really meant, or how they were really supposed to take a particular sentence.


I'm not intending to change the opinion of anyone or convince anyone. I'm just presenting the other side, the background what about you don't know, so you may understand why I'm torn now between the advices. I'm hearing two contradicting opinion regarding the very same work, the same editing, the same blurb from two sets of people. One here, and one in the "reviewers' firing range".


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

I've just read through this whole thread.  

You say you're struggling with two sets of opinions, those that say your books are wonderful and those saying you still have a lot of work to do.  I can tell you that the ones saying you have work to do to improve are the correct ones.  

The way for you to know this is true is that in four months your books have not sold well.  Period.

Although it's true that you could just be having a slow start, in all likelihood there is some other explanation.  The simplest explanation is usually the right explanation, and in this case it's pretty clear to most of us that these books are not quite up to par.  You appear to have issues with pricing, writing a strong blurb and English grammar.

Logically you can see why this would be true.  English isn't your first language.  I admire your writing because it's actually very strong--but it's not quite polished enough for a novelist.  You say your novels are different because they've gone through editing, but even a good editor will struggle to retain your "voice" while improving the grammar.  So while they might be able to fix many of your grammatical issues during the editing process, this will likely lead to some awkward sentences or stilted dialog or places where things just don't quite work.

Writing strong fiction with a good voice is very difficult for even those of us who've spoken and written English our entire life.  It's going to be a very tall order for someone from another country who speaks and writes English as a second language.  That being the case, you really need to focus on this part of your writing and stop being so defensive.  Those dialog tags you were defending up thread are indefensible.  They're really amateurish and you need to accept this.  You are correct that they slow the book down, and it's not a good thing.

Almost all of the advice I read in this thread seemed spot-on to me.  If you truly want to succeed at this e-publishing thing you're going to have to redouble your efforts on the writing craft side of things.  It will take a lot of time and effort, but you can do it if you really want to.

If not, this will just be a hobby and you'll continue to struggle with disappointing sales and confusing feedback.  

The answer is the simple one--the one you know deep down but don't want to admit.

Best of luck.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm curious what _you _think is the explanation for a poor start. You don't think it's the cover, you don't think it's the marketing, and you don't think it is the writing. You must have some suspicions.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I read the whole thread too. I have to agree with gorvnice. If you can find someone who speaks English as a first language and has editing experience, they can point out the beginner mistakes in your blurb. If they're in your blurb and you didn't "see" them, I as a reader, would assume your book is riddled with them.

Your concept is wonderful. If you bring your craft skills up to the level of your concepts, then you will have a winner.

Congratulations on writing you novels in the first place. That is a major accomplishment.

One other issue, I looked at the also boughts for your books, and they're in the 99 cent to $1.99 range. To get increased sales, you should consider lowering your price to around $2.99, which is the price point for higher sales for most indie books (according to Verso publishing statistics).


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

What were the names of the publishers who praised your writing? The only reason I ask is because there are some publishers who make their money from the author, rather than from selling books to readers. These are scam artists and they will try to flatter any writer into publishing with them because they do not pay advances, they ask for money from the author.

Here's what Wiki says about dialogue tags, which I think is very good:



> Identifiers, also known as tag lines, dialogue tags or attributions, let the reader know which character is speaking. An example would be:
> 
> "This breakfast is making me sick," George said.
> 
> ...


Stephen King is one of the most successful writers of today. The writers here are echoing his sentiments. If creative dialogue tags are frowned upon by the likes of Stephen King, I would assume there's a good reason for it. At least if you want to sell books like Stephen King.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> I'm curious what _you _think is the explanation for a poor start. You don't think it's the cover, you don't think it's the marketing, and you don't think it is the writing. You must have some suspicions.


I don't want to create personal conclusions or create answers, because fabricated answers are not answers, just excuses. But if you want to hear my theory; Crystal Shade is actually nothing similar what you call as fantasy these days. It's a new world, new storyline, nothing cliche, nothing copy-paste. New things used to scare the readers as it's nothing what they know and also, my name is also telling that I'm not American and British. I have had problem with this before when I was a screenwriter, so I would add this to my guess list as well. Oh, and the marketing had a glitch in the past, so I also add it to this list. The blurb is an interesting thing, because one set of people capable to understand what does it mean and what the book is all about, while the other set don't understand it. I've never met with this scenario before that the very same blurb is "good and tells everything" for one and "bad and tells nothing" for others. This is the part what I can't place anywhere.



Victorine said:


> What were the names of the publishers who praised your writing? The only reason I ask is because there are some publishers who make their money from the author, rather than from selling books to readers. These are scam artists and they will try to flatter any writer into publishing with them because they do not pay advances, they ask for money from the author.


It's really matter what the names were (I never name anyone in forum conversations as it's not ethical in my opinion, especially if they should be named in pro or contra examples.). They're legal publishers with a proper background. They're not a scam and they also would gain nothing to tell this to me. Also as I've said, it wasn't just the publishers, but the readers who actually read this book as well. They had no reason to lie to me, or in the reviews as they've bought the books.



> Here's what Wiki says about dialogue tags


With all due respect, I'm not an author who has learned "how to write a story" or "how to write" from Wikipedia, from blogs or from the internet. So, please don't link wikipedia articles about writing or how tags should be used. Also, if you check many books, successful ones, many of them are filled with d-tags like mine. It's not amateurish as some of you're trying to tell me. It's just a different, harder, descriptive style. Actually I'm wondering why many of you're calling it amateurish, when extended d-tags are part of writing and they've always been part of novel writing, especially fantasy. Just check famous past and present novels in the fantasy genre.



> If creative dialogue tags are frowned upon by the likes of Stephen King, I would assume there's a good reason for it.


It's just a matter of taste. I'm not intending to amaze Stephen King and I don't want to fit any of my books to his taste. I'm writing for the readers, not to amaze writers. Stephen King doesn't like creative d-tags, that's his privilege. But that doesn't mean readers don't like it. Many bestsellers are actually full with extended, creative d-tags.



LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you can find someone who speaks English as a first language and has editing experience,


My editor is a Canadian editor, so I can't find better as English is her native language. She has a Hungarian family name, but she is Canadian and we're not related at all. She is a damned good editor and not I'm the one who said this, but few readers who have actually read my work from the beginning to the end.



> One other issue, I looked at the also boughts for your books, and they're in the 99 cent to $1.99 range.


Crystal Shade won't go below $4.99, only with discount. However it has an episodic release (The first is $1.33), so that's my experiment to be in this range, while I keep the original price.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Based on your replies, especially the last one--I can see why you're struggling to sell books.

This isn't a business that rewards self-deception.


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> The bulk of your answers to critiques of your work have been defensive [justifications].


It feels weird to agree with Krista. . .

There's no need to defend your choices. Take their advice, ignore it, or don't ask for it.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Guardian said:


> With all due respect, I'm not an author who has learned "how to write a story" or "how to write" from Wikipedia, from blogs or from the internet.


Oh, I have. And I will. In fact, I will happily learn from any source and have learned almost as much from bad examples of writing as from good ones. Even this thread provides some valuable writing advice. Those who are open to improvement won't dismiss it because of its source.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

You can write however you want to write. No worries. You said, "Opinions also welcomed as I'm curious what did I do wrong. Statistically all three books should sell well above the average, especially the first one, but you see the results."

We're just offering some ideas and opinions as to why your books aren't selling. You don't have to subscribe to our way of thinking. You can keep writing the way you have been. If it's working for you, great!

If it's not working for you, then maybe after a while, you'll want to take a look at these things.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

gorvnice said:


> Based on your replies, especially the last one--I can see why you're struggling to sell books.
> 
> This isn't a business that rewards self-deception.


But what is the self-deception here? I hear two contradicting opinion about the very same book, same editing, same blurb. That's not self-deception, that's the fact.



SentientSurfer said:


> There's no need to defend your choices. Take their advice, ignore it, or don't ask for it.


I'm telling again, as I did before. I appreciate every advice, and I'm not defending my choices, I just tell you the background to see the full picture instead of just giving advices based on half information. But regardless how many times I do if these details are vanishing in space. I've told few times I have a native English speaking editor, yet this information is passing near everyone's ear like if it wouldn't be there and I get over and over again to get a native English speaking editor. I've also told that my other two books are not filled with extended d-tags, because of the different genre, yet this info is still passing near everyone's ear. This thread was about three books, not one. But you guys pick on one very much, namely Crystal Shade, but I don't have a clue why. You've not even touched the other two, not even mentioned them. I'd like to know what is the reason? (This paragraph is in a "curious tone", not in an "offended" one.). I'm really curious why you've never said anything regarding the other two? This thread was about three books, not one. Crystal Shade got almost three-four pages of highlight, but the other two, which has different style got none.



MichaelWallace said:


> Oh, I have. And I will. In fact, I will happily learn from any source and have learned almost as much from bad examples of writing as from good ones. Even this thread provides some valuable writing advice. Those who are open to improvement won't dismiss it because of its source.


There is an old saying from Abraham Lincoln; You can't believe most of the quotes you read on the Internet.  Learning is one thing, looking after it and speaking from experience is another. Improvement is good, but the internet is not and never been a trustworthy source of information, especially not Wikipedia.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry about the sales of your first book (or in this case, two or three)... write the next one.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Sean Sweeney said:


> This is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry about the sales of your first book (or in this case, two or three)... write the next one.


Now this is the best advice of all. I already do.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Guardian said:


> There is an old saying from Abraham Lincoln; You can't believe most of the quotes you read on the Internet.  Learning is one thing, looking after it and speaking from experience is another. Improvement is good, but the internet is not and never been a trustworthy source of information, especially not Wikipedia.


If that's how you feel I find myself wondering why you started a thread on an internet message board asking for advice.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Now, that being said... and I haven't read the entire thread. I only skimmed a little. If the sales are low due to substandard writing -- and keep in mind I have not read your work, so I wouldn't know if your writing is substandard -- then you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and take a long look at your writing from a different perspective. 

For me, I didn't "get it" until I was six or seven books down the pipeline. I'm as impatient about my writing as the next person. But after I waited a few weeks to edit/revise and looked long and hard at the writing, I could see the mistakes I had made that others had pointed out, and now I do my utmost to correct the mistakes mentally before the words even get on the screen. Even if that means taking a few moments to think about the words before I start typing them.

Just my two pennies.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

The thing is, I read a snippet of your work you posted somewhere here--the bit about Bertha?--and thought it was quite good. And funny to boot. But reading your blurb, there's clearly something off about it; the phrasing suggests, rather undeniably, an imperfect command of the English language. My natural assumption would be the text of the novel's got the same problems. Which isn't the case. But the hypothetical me would never know that, because I wouldn't bother to check the sample after reading that strangely-worded blurb. No offense intended. I just don't think it's helping you at all.

As for the adverbs and dialogue tags.. I'm going to dissent a little bit, and say if that's your style, that's your style. Anti-adverb sentiment wasn't always this strong among American writers, and I doubt it will be forever more, either. Still, that is the fashion right now, and if you choose to run hard against it, you'll probably lose sales as a consequence. There isn't really any way around it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

SentientSurfer said:


> It feels weird to agree with Krista. . .


JR Tomlin started a support group.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Guardian said:


> I'm telling again, as I did before. I appreciate every advice, and I'm not defending my choices, I just tell you the background to see the full picture instead of just giving advices based on half information. But regardless how many times I do if these details are vanishing in space. I've told few times I have a native English speaking editor, yet this information is passing near everyone's ear like if it wouldn't be there and I get over and over again to get a native English speaking editor. I've also told that my other two books are not filled with extended d-tags, because of the different genre, yet this info is still passing near everyone's ear. This thread was about three books, not one. But you guys pick on one very much, namely Crystal Shade, but I don't have a clue why. You've not even touched the other two, not even mentioned them. I'd like to know what is the reason? (This paragraph is in a "curious tone", not in an "offended" one.). I'm really curious why you've never said anything regarding the other two? This thread was about three books, not one. Crystal Shade got almost three-four pages of highlight, but the other two, which has different style got none.


I'm going to say what most people in this thread are thinking: _We aren't the ones not listening. You are._

You asked for advice. You were given it. You didn't like it because it called into question your writing skill. Instead of looking at your work objectively, you have dismissed every single piece of advice that you didn't like.

Who cares that none of us have look at books 2 and 3? No one is going to read them if they don't buy Book 1.

You had this has a serial. Was it free? People have higher tolerances for problems in free web serials because it's a) a serial and generally is being written as it goes and b) is free. When asking someone to pay for something, it's a whole another ball park.

You keep talking about all of these great things people said about your work. Well, let me share a few of those with you. When I ran Road to Hell through readers, the response was wow! great! gripping! Nevermind that I had a giant screaming plot hole in it...it was all about praise. I had people less experienced than me assisting me with the reading and it showed.

If you are arguing like this, I'm guessing you also argued with your editor, unless of course she lacked editing experience (that happens, no harm in that). Since you have no real interest in learning why your book isn't selling, I'll move on along. Good luck.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

This thread deteriorated a couple pages ago. I'm not sure that anyone can help you at this point. If all you want is for people to tell you to keep writing, then you've gotten it. Maybe you'll continue to get it. You can certainly continue with the idea that taking up more virtual shelf space is the answer.

I'm not one to tell someone to keep doing what they are already doing when it's not working. The editor in me absolutely won't let me. None of us know why your books aren't selling by the truckload but most of us have at least figured out reasons why you've only sold a handful.

No one is intending anything other than to be helpful, but to be any more help to you would require getting downright blunt and honest in a way that ends up hurting people's feelings. That's what happens when you get people trying to help mixed with someone that clearly doesn't really want help. It just deteriorates into a nasty mess because everyone gets frustrated.

I would suggest letting this thread die while it's still relatively civil. I'm sure that's probably not going to happen but I thought it was worth saying anyway. Yanno, just in case.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Guardian said:


> Now the problem is that from one set of the people that I've asked is saying it's weak writing and weak blurb, the other half, including some pros, veterans, publishers are saying it's very-very strong, beautiful and elegant (And none of them are my friends or people close to me.) and they've no problem with the blurb at all. I'm not saying that any of you're wrong, and I really appreciate the help, but both sides can't be right either.


Reading is highly subjective, both sides _can_ be right. Your elegant prose is my ridiculously overwritten filler. Not saying that's the case here, just examples of how different people can experience the very same work. Just as an example from my own reviews received within a week of each other for the same book--one person said my writing was amazing and another said my style was jarring. She was looking for something that I'm not, and don't try to be. That doesn't mean there's a problem with my book or that there's a problem with her, we just don't mesh. I'm okay with that, it happens. My job as a writer/marketer is to get my book into the hands of as many of the _right_ people as possible.

Since the point of the thread was trying to figure out why your books aren't selling, I'm going to hit that topic. I think you've gotten really great advice regarding the blurb. Our inclination as writers is to hide all of our precious plotline away and not give anything up, but in your blurb you have to give up something to make the reader want to invest their time and money on your book. You don't have give away the big twist ending, but you have to give them something interesting enough to make them click. You can't be vague. You have to be enticing and exact. I'm sorry if that goes against your grain, but it's just something you have to get over.

However, all of that aside, I think targeting is really your problem. I haven't read anything of yours aside from what's in this thread, so definitely take this with a healthy handful of salt, but from what I've seen you might be straining to hit the wrong market. YA is a market dominated by quick reads (50k is a common length) and heavy on action, which does not seem to be what your books are. In a market like YA it doesn't matter much how beautiful your prose is or how original your plot is, which seems to be what you're trying to push on your product page. You may very well think I'm wrong, but I'd suggest you browse through the top 10 or 20 books in the market you're trying to hit and figure out what those people want. Just because your book features a young character does not mean it is a YA book.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> The thing is, I read a snippet of your work you posted somewhere here--the bit about Bertha?--and thought it was quite good. And funny to boot. But reading your blurb, there's clearly something off about it; the phrasing suggests, rather undeniably, an imperfect command of the English language. My natural assumption would be the text of the novel's got the same problems. Which isn't the case. But the hypothetical me would never know that, because I wouldn't bother to check the sample after reading that strangely-worded blurb. No offense intended. I just don't think it's helping you at all.
> 
> As for the adverbs and dialogue tags.. I'm going to dissent a little bit, and say if that's your style, that's your style. Anti-adverb sentiment wasn't always this strong among American writers, and I doubt it will be forever more, either. Still, that is the fashion right now, and if you choose to run hard against it, you'll probably lose sales as a consequence. There isn't really any way around it.


I agree with this, especially the bit about adverbs & tags. I know it's not a popular opinion on here but I do think that they come under the heading of individual style and style is up to the author to decide and the reader to judge. The world would be a very boring place if every author had exactly the same style - it's like saying that every singer should sing only in the style of opera, or only punk, or only pop, or only folk, etc. Also, while tags and adverbs can be a sign of bad writing, that isn't always the case. Many classic authors used them and some of the most successful authors of recent years have been criticised for using them - but the majority of readers like their books anyway. Like most things, I think they're fine in moderation.

What I see a risk of, is people who have followed the same teachings on what is supposedly best, forgetting that these things are a style choice and therefore optional. Grammar, punctuation and spelling are different, they are required (but even there you'll find disagreements over exactly what is or isn't correct!)

Yes, I would agree that the blurbs read a bit too much like they've been written as a second language and are possibly holding back sales -but I also agree that the books don't read that way (not in the excerpts I've seen anyway.)

I wasn't going to comment but this is starting to feel a bit too much like everyone jumping on the OP, who is trying to explain themselves in a second language and therefore may not always intend things in the way they come across.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> The thing is, I read a snippet of your work you posted somewhere here--the bit about Bertha?--and thought it was quite good. And funny to boot. But reading your blurb, there's clearly something off about it; the phrasing suggests, rather undeniably, an imperfect command of the English language. My natural assumption would be the text of the novel's got the same problems. Which isn't the case. But the hypothetical me would never know that, because I wouldn't bother to check the sample after reading that strangely-worded blurb. No offense intended. I just don't think it's helping you at all.


7 Post Meridiem's series blurb, where I try to tell the concept is definitely off. I'm aware of that as someone who has bought Pale Moonlight also told me few days ago. That's why I'm wondering why do I get advices regarding Crystal Shade, while the series blurb of 7PM maybe has greater problems (And unlike in CS's case, I'm also aware of this one.). I just haven't come up with a new one. Oh, and I'm glad you like the "Bertha scene.". Pale Moonlight is the funny, easy read. 



Sean Sweeney said:


> If the sales are low due to substandard writing -- and keep in mind I have not read your work, so I wouldn't know if your writing is substandard -- then you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and take a long look at your writing from a different perspective.


I would agree with you if I wouldn't get two different opinion regarding the same writing. One is calling it weak mostly because of the extended d-tags, the other side is calling it quite good and has no problem with it. This is what about I'm talking.



Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm going to say what most people in this thread are thinking: _We aren't the ones not listening. You are._


Krista. This isn't a race about who is listening and who is not. But when I have to write down for the sixth times that I have a native English speaker, pro editor, not I'm the one who is not listening. Please, I ask you, don't look things into my posts that are not even there.



> Who cares that none of us have look at books 2 and 3? No one is going to read them if they don't buy Book 1.


I do, because there are three different books, three different genre, three different style and three different marketing. You pick only on one. I'd like to ask you to be honest. Have you actually looked at the other two books before you jumped in to tell how things should be done? Crystal Shade is a fantasy, which is a harder read. Pale Moonlight is a funny fast paced noir novelette and AHS is an extra short science fiction. This is the reason I'm asking.



Coral Moore said:


> However, all of that aside, I think targeting is really your problem. I haven't read anything of yours aside from what's in this thread, so definitely take this with a healthy handful of salt, but from what I've seen you might be straining to hit the wrong market. YA is a market dominated by quick reads (50k is a common length) and heavy on action, which does not seem to be what your books are. In a market like YA it doesn't matter much how beautiful your prose is or how original your plot is, which seems to be what you're trying to push on your product page. You may very well think I'm wrong, but I'd suggest you browse through the top 10 or 20 books in the market you're trying to hit and figure out what those people want. Just because your book features a young character does not mean it is a YA book.


I'm going to double check this again. However this book was in the epic fantasy section for three months, so my guess is presumably not the YA stuff is the problem as it wasn't there before, only in this month. But yes, it's definitely worth to check this out once again to check the other present YA titles.



Cheryl M. said:


> I would suggest letting this thread die while it's still relatively civil. I'm sure that's probably not going to happen but I thought it was worth saying anyway. Yanno, just in case.


That's a good idea.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> Yes. I believe to everyone and I appreciate all these advices. But as you've said I'm now torn between two sets of people. It can't be good and bad at the same time.


I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Of course it can. Reading taste is subjective. _Every book_ with a sufficient number of reviews will have 5 star and 1 star reviews--people who loved it and people who hated it and a slew of inbetween. Just recently on this board their was a thread about how The Great Gatsby has 20,000+ 1 star reviews. But it also has many more 5-star reviews. So every book is good and bad at the same time. The question is the size of the audience that it will appeal to. I think your choices, and we'll assume they're all intentional, have limited your receptive audience to a very small pool.

It seems you are more intent on "explaining" why you made those choices than doing something with the advice you're recieving. That's fine, but in that case your time is probably better spent writing your next book than going around in circles with people here.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Guardian said:


> I would agree with you if I wouldn't get two different opinion regarding the same writing. One is calling it weak mostly because of the extended d-tags, the other side is calling it quite good and has no problem with it. This is about I'm talking.


I just wanted to point out something that is really the key to getting what you want out of this thread. You say you have conflicting opinions. You need to pick one to follow. There will always be people that love your work and people that hate your work. You have to try to now distinguish which opinion you think has the most credibility and go with it. It's not really a choice anyone can make for you. Once you make that choice, you have to pray it's not the blind leading the blind because no one can make that choice for you.

Good luck. I know it's difficult but in the end you have to take a long hard look at what people are saying, what you've written and then make your own choice. *shrugs*

And one more thing to chew on before I shut up: writing is not subjective. Storytelling is subjective. Writing is absolutely not. There is good, there is bad and some would say there is okay. Style of writing is also not subjective. I can read a book I don't like and still recognize that it's written well. I can also recognize a style I don't like but see that it's still written well. I'm not sure where this idea that when people say limit adverbs means banish all adverbs. It doesn't. It means if you use them, use them well. Most people don't use them well. Adverbs are everywhere and they are not banished from books. Many of my favorite lines have an adverb. It all comes down to how you use them.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I've sampled all of the books in the OP's signature line. They all strike me as over-written. The writing draws attention to itself rather then disappearing and leaving the reader to get into the story. That's not grammatically "wrong" so your editor won't correct it. However, it will be harder to sell work that is written like this.

If you like this style of writing and don't want to learn how to slim things down, that's fine. But your books will be harder to sell.

Just my opinion. Others will disagree.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

J. Tanner said:


> It seems you are more intent on "explaining" why you made those choices than doing something with the advice you're recieving.


I'd like to know why do you believe that if I'm explaining my view about a certain subject, it is excluding the fact that I might take an advice into consideration? I never understood this. The two never excludes each other.



> probably better spent writing your next book than going around in circles with people here.


This week is preparation, mixed with a little well deserved holiday. The heavy duty writing comes next week. 



Cheryl M. said:


> Once you make that choice, you have to pray it's not the blind leading the blind because no one can make that choice for you.


This line sounded like an advice from a wise character in CS.  But I have to agree with this statement.



> Good luck. I know it's difficult but in the end you have to take a long hard look at what people are saying, what you've written and then make your own choice. *shrugs*


I always do. As I've written above, explaining something never excludes the possibility to listen to any advice. And thanks. I hope I'll find my answer sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

I based much of my commentary on what was written by you and others in this thread and my assumptions that arose from the discussion.

However, because you kept stating we'd not read enough of your work, I went and checked out both Pale Moonlight and Crystal Shade.  I just checked the samples.

The writing in both was stronger than anticipated...however, both had problems.  You are at a disadvantage as a non-Native English speaker.  You are not really able to evaluate the work done by your "pro editor" because you don't understand the subtleties of the English language in written form.  You simply don't.

Granted, your writing is still better than much of the general population's, and with a lot of work you might get to where you need to be.  But your steadfast refusal to listen to reason and also to see that your failure to sell books does say something about their quality--is ultimately going to keep you spinning your wheels.

You need to get to a point where you can write in this language so well that you don't require an editor to clean up your basic English mistakes. Your writing should be so fluid and natural that you can post on this forum without anyone guessing you're not a native speaker.  Until you can do that, it will be extremely difficult for you to write and sell books using English.

There are too many stilted sentences in your books, too many awkward phrasings and things that just don't seem natural from a basic reading comprehension perspective.  For instance, in your opening sentences of Pale Moonlight, I initially thought the narrator had killed someone when he had only opened an envelope.  I had to go back and re-read it to make sure.  It's clever writing in some ways, but then it becomes confusing and its slightly off-center (in a bad way) due to the language and phrasing.  It's very subtle.  You can choose to disbelieve us, but the sales numbers don't lie.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

And I'll even go one step further.  There are writers selling a lot of ebooks who can't write as well as you in terms of depth, description, cleverness of phrasing.

But because they are native English speakers their work has a feel and ease that yours lacks, and so they will sell more books than you do every time.  Are they better writers?  Yes and no.  Their talent and creativity might be lacking, but they know how to make themselves understood and are easier to read than you.  

I think part of this is just your natural style--but part of it, I am convinced, is also your inability to grasp some subtleties of the English language.  So that could explain why you are hearing two different kinds of reviews.  The problem is, the majority of people want to be able to understand what they read and not be slowed down by complicated and sometimes awkward prose.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

gorvnice said:


> The writing in both was stronger than anticipated...however, both had problems. You are at a disadvantage as a non-Native English speaker. You are not really able to evaluate the work done by your "pro editor" because you don't understand the subtleties of the English language in written form. You simply don't.


Maybe I don't understand, but my editor surely does. I've worked with her in the last ten years as in many screenplays she was my co-writer too.



> Granted, your writing is still better than much of the general population's, and with a lot of work you might get to where you need to be.


Thank you. I take this as a compliment. 



> But your steadfast refusal to listen to reason and also to see that your failure to sell books does say something about their quality--is ultimately going to keep you spinning your wheels.


As I said in my previous response, explaining something won't exclude the possibility that I'm going to take the advices. It never did. I don't know where do you got this idea.



> You need to get to a point where you can write in this language so well that you don't require an editor to clean up your basic English mistakes. Your writing should be so fluid and natural that you can post on this forum without anyone guessing you're not a native speaker. Until you can do that, it will be extremely difficult for you to write and sell books using English.


Actually only my forum sentences sucks, but when I write I have much better grammar (Don't ask why, I don't have a clue.). When I have to write a story, I used to write with a much-much better grammar. On a forum I rarely watch for it, especially as I have to response much faster and translate all my sudden thoughts from my language to yours. And translating Hungarian to English in an instant is damned hard.



> There are too many stilted sentences in your books, too many awkward phrasings and things that just don't seem natural from a basic reading comprehension perspective. For instance, in your opening sentences of Pale Moonlight, I initially thought the narrator had killed someone when he had only opened an envelope. I had to go back and re-read it to make sure. It's clever writing in some ways, but then it becomes confusing and its slightly off-center (in a bad way) due to the language and phrasing.


Hmmmm. The opening line is using a basic writing element what I've learned in elementary. It's called "image" or "semblance". It supposed to be the very same in both of our languages. At least I thought it's the very same, but it seems it doesn't really exist in English. Well, I've been mistaken before, so it's my fault.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> I'd like to know why do you believe that if I'm explaining my view about a certain subject, it is excluding the fact that I might take an advice into consideration? I never understood this. The two never excludes each other.


Sorry, I think being subtle obfuscated my point. Quotes like these give every indication you have zero intent to impliment the advice given:



> With all due respect, I'm not an author who has learned "how to write a story" or "how to write" from Wikipedia, from blogs or from the internet. So, please don't link wikipedia articles about writing or how tags should be used. Also, if you check many books, successful ones, many of them are filled with d-tags like mine. It's not amateurish as some of you're trying to tell me. It's just a different, harder, descriptive style. Actually I'm wondering why many of you're calling it amateurish, when extended d-tags are part of writing and they've always been part of novel writing, especially fantasy. Just check famous past and present novels in the fantasy genre.





> I'm not intending to amaze Stephen King and I don't want to fit any of my books to his taste. I'm writing for the readers, not to amaze writers. Stephen King doesn't like creative d-tags, that's his privilege. But that doesn't mean readers don't like it.


They actually go beyond explanation into dismissive territory. (For example: the advice about dialogue tags on Wiki is there because it's pretty much common knowledge. Like the earth is round. You don't dismiss the information that the earth is round because the person who mentioned it happened to cite Wiki rather than any number of other sources. This advice comes from MANY sources and the King book mentioned is but one. King may have popularized it but it existed before King mentioned it in On Writing (if I recall.) There are no hard and fast rules for novel writing. All of the guidelines are broken by very famous examples, but that doesn't mean that breaking them is a good idea, particularly early in your career before you've earned a certain amount of trust in your brand from readers.)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Guardian said:


> It's really matter what the names were (I never name anyone in forum conversations as it's not ethical in my opinion, especially if they should be named in pro or contra examples.). They're legal publishers with a proper background. They're not a scam and they also would gain nothing to tell this to me. Also as I've said, it wasn't just the publishers, but the readers who actually read this book as well. They had no reason to lie to me, or in the reviews as they've bought the books.
> 
> With all due respect, I'm not an author who has learned "how to write a story" or "how to write" from Wikipedia, from blogs or from the internet. So, please don't link wikipedia articles about writing or how tags should be used. Also, if you check many books, successful ones, many of them are filled with d-tags like mine. It's not amateurish as some of you're trying to tell me. It's just a different, harder, descriptive style. Actually I'm wondering why many of you're calling it amateurish, when extended d-tags are part of writing and they've always been part of novel writing, especially fantasy. Just check famous past and present novels in the fantasy genre.
> 
> It's just a matter of taste. I'm not intending to amaze Stephen King and I don't want to fit any of my books to his taste. I'm writing for the readers, not to amaze writers. Stephen King doesn't like creative d-tags, that's his privilege. But that doesn't mean readers don't like it. Many bestsellers are actually full with extended, creative d-tags.


The Wiki cites come from other very legitimate sources. If you want to sell your books in the USA it is good to know what the current style conventions are that most readers feel comfortable reading. If you don't pay attention to the current style conventions that may make your writing more difficult for some to read. Most readers like to understand what they are reading or they will stop at some point.

Usually when browsing books readers will sample and read a few pages and if they like what they read they may buy. If they don't like it--they definitely won't buy. If you want to sell books--think about what your reader wants, not what you want.

You posted asking for advice because your books don't sell. Why do you think they don't sell?


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> You posted asking for advice because your books don't sell. Why do you think they don't sell?


Cultural differences?  Just kidding. If I would know, I wouldn't ask.



J. Tanner said:


> Sorry, I think being subtle obfuscated my point. Quotes like these give every indication you have zero intent to impliment the advice given.


Wikipedia shouldn't be a reference for writing in any case. I've seen many pages there with plenty mistakes, so I won't take anything granted what is on Wikipedia. This is the reason I dismissed that advice. Also I never understood this idolization and worshiping of King (Maybe someone is going to explain this to me someday.). He is good. No. Let me to rephrase this. He is very good in creating ideas, situations and bound the reader to these worlds (That's why I love his works.). But like every author he has good and bad books and sometimes King is also very-very repetitive. I know that in the United States, King is considered as an "A+++" author, a legend, the almighty God-Emperor of Writing, but here in Europe he is just a "Class A" horror author who, sometimes, write good stories in other genres... but he is not so much beyond that. His old classics are also great, but some of his newer novels are simply average (However I haven't read his latest.). I know I won't win a popularity contest win this statement, but to me King is just King. A great author with an opinion, no more. He is a talented writer, a guy who's fortunate enough to have something he likes doing and does it well enough to make a living at it. As he had said once; he writes for the mainstream, not for academia. So, here, we don't idolize him, just recognize his talent and love his books (I also have most of them.). And honestly, I don't want to write as King. I want to polish my own style, so on one day hopefully it will be a polished, shiny crystal, what readers may recognize anytime, love or hate (As you can't satisfy everyone.).



> All of the guidelines are broken by very famous examples, but that doesn't mean that breaking them is a good idea, particularly early in your career before you've earned a certain amount of trust in your brand from readers.


You never know if you never try. I always took risks in my career. I always try to do something what the majority never dare to do. I never play safe and I face the challenges. This is one of the reasons I'm writing in a different, second language instead of playing on a safe ground.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

What are your goals? Do you want to write something that will sell well? Or do you want to write something risky, something that doesn't conform to what is popular today, with the risk that it might not sell?

If you want to write something that will sell well, you have to study writing techniques from those that sell well. Stephen King is just one of them. 

If you don't want to write something that will sell well, ignore the advice from the best selling authors and do your own thing. But there you have your answer as to why it isn't selling well. You ignored the advice from those selling well.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

As others have said, you're at a bit of a disadvantage in being able to judge your edited work not being a native speaker. I sampled the first couple of pages of _Pale Moonlight _ and the "perfect, error-free" text ... isn't. Perhaps your editor is a pro in the Hungarian language; I would not consider her one in the English language. There are tense issues, an instance of a "no" that should be "not," improper use of semicolons, missing italics and several instances where a mid-sentence phrase starts to be correctly set off by commas but the closing comma is missing. And remember, that's all just in the first two pages.

These are not style issues where one style guide may indicate one way and another style guide may indicate another, nor are they the writer's personal style coming through. I daresay if you give a manuscript to 10 different pro proofreaders/copyeditors you'll get back 10 different versions of comma placement and syntax. What you won't get back is wrong punctuation and mixed verb tenses.

Couple the grammar and punctuation issues with dense sentence structure and purple dialog tags and you're alienating a good many readers. Finding the readers who value the way you write, as you're discovering, is an uphill battle.

Another thing to consider is that I used to critique query letters on my blog and have critiqued several hundred across multiple venues. Undoubtedly the most common complaint from folk struggling to write a query or blurb is: "I can't possibly distill my 100,000+ word tome down into 150 words. My work is too unique. My plot too multi-layered. My characters too complex. My work is different from all that other simplistic stuff out there and deserves special consideration."

Newsflash: Every author considers their work unique and multi-layered, brimming with interesting characters, important sub-plots and transcendental messages. If you can't manage to come up with a blurb yourself that satisfies the requirements, ask someone who's read the book and is gifted with words to write it for you. Then be open to what they write. What you think you're communicating may not be, in fact, what is being received.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> As others have said, you're at a bit of a disadvantage in being able to judge your edited work not being a native speaker. I sampled the first couple of pages of _Pale Moonlight _ and the "perfect, error-free" text ... isn't. Perhaps your editor is a pro in the Hungarian language; I would not consider her one in the English language. There are tense issues, an instance of a "no" that should be "not," improper use of semicolons, missing italics and several instances where a mid-sentence phrase starts to be correctly set off by commas but the closing comma is missing. And remember, that's all just in the first two pages.


That Hungarian editor that to you're referring is actually a native Canadian editor with the native language of English and around ten+ years of experience. She has only a Hungarian family name and those punctuation mistakes... well, no one has mentioned those before, while plenty has read this book, professionals included. But if you point them out, I would gladly learn or may show to my editor, so she may watch for them next time. Please show me an example and what the mistakes are. Just one example from Pale Moonlight.



> Another thing to consider is that I used to critique query letters on my blog and have critiqued several hundred across multiple venues. Undoubtedly the most common complaint from folk struggling to write a query or blurb is: "I can't possibly distill my 100,000+ word tome down into 150 words. My work is too unique. My plot too multi-layered. My characters too complex. My work is different from all that other simplistic stuff out there and deserves special consideration." Newsflash: Every author considers their work unique and multi-layered, brimming with interesting characters, important sub-plots and transcendental messages.


Newsflash: I'm also well aware of this. I've worked as a screenwriter for ten years and everyone has a brilliant new idea, which is not so original after all. I know that. But IF something is really different as this was the primary goal with this fantasy world, to create something brand new, and that's why it took six years to develop, I won't say it's a standard fantasy world, because it isn't, regardless that people don't like to hear statements like this these days (Also every author love to tell this, just as you've mentioned, but if something is not new, I won't say that.). Actually it's really a different fantasy story. Go ahead, read the first three chapters. The episodic release's first part is now free on Smashwords; http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/137506. (Hopefully) You won't find any single elements from other fantasies. You won't find knights, elvens, dwarves, castles, bar fights. This world doesn't even have currency or any similar thing. So, I believe this is the only thing what I can say for sure; the world and the storyline is original. And I'm very proud for this achievement.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> As others have said...Newsflash: Every author considers their work unique and multi-layered, brimming with interesting characters, important sub-plots and transcendental messages. If you can't manage to come up with a blurb yourself that satisfies the requirements, ask someone who's read the book and is gifted with words to write it for you. Then be open to what they write. What you think you're communicating may not be, in fact, what is being received.


This whole post is so well stated.


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## Spirit Flame (Feb 28, 2012)

Guardian said:


> Cultural differences?  Just kidding. If I would know, I wouldn't ask.
> 
> Wikipedia shouldn't be a reference for writing in any case. I've seen many pages there with plenty mistakes, so I won't take anything granted what is on Wikipedia. This is the reason I dismissed that advice. Also I never understood this idolization and worshiping of King (Maybe someone is going to explain this to me someday.). He is good. No. Let me to rephrase this. He is very good in creating ideas, situations and bound the reader to these worlds (That's why I love his works.). But like every author he has good and bad books and sometimes King is also very-very repetitive. I know that in the United States, King is considered as an "A+++" author, a legend, the almighty God-Emperor of Writing, but here in Europe he is just a "Class A" horror author who, sometimes, write good stories in other genres... but he is not so much beyond that. His old classics are also great, but some of his newer novels are simply average (However I haven't read his latest.). I know I won't win a popularity contest win this statement, but to me King is just King. A great author with an opinion, no more. He is a talented writer, a guy who's fortunate enough to have something he likes doing and does it well enough to make a living at it. As he had said once; he writes for the mainstream, not for academia. So, here, we don't idolize him, just recognize his talent and love his books (I also have most of them.). And honestly, I don't want to write as King. I want to polish my own style, so on one day hopefully it will be a polished, shiny crystal, what readers may recognize anytime, love or hate (As you can't satisfy everyone.).
> 
> You never know if you never try. I always took risks in my career. I always try to do something what the majority never dare to do. I never play safe and I face the challenges. This is one of the reasons I'm writing in a different, second language instead of playing on a safe ground.


Reading the above and having followed this thread since it was created, My conclusion may not be popular, But...

I no longer see a "Needy" author seeking advice. I see self promotion, an engineered post that looking at the quoted portion has now turned into an author interview!
A master class in maximising exposure.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Spirit Flame said:


> Reading the above and having followed this thread since it was created, My conclusion may not be popular, But...
> 
> I no longer see a "Needy" author seeking advice. I see self promotion, an engineered post that looking at the quoted portion has now turned into an author interview!


Nope, you're right. It has turned to something like that in the explanation of my points, but it never was my intention with this thread, nor with any of my responses.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

Guardian said:


> I would agree with you if I wouldn't get two different opinion regarding the same writing. One is calling it weak mostly because of the extended d-tags, the other side is calling it quite good and has no problem with it. This is what about I'm talking.


One thing I've learned in nearly two decades of professional writing: You're not going to please everyone. Some people will like it, and some people will think it's rubbish. There are people who think Meyer and Paolini are the greatest writers in the history of the world. There are some who wouldn't use their books to line their birdcages. Everyone's tastes vary.

The only thing you can do is turn your ears off, and just work on the writing.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I finally read the Look Inside of all 3 of your books and now I get it. You are an "artist" with your own unique vision who will maybe find his own unique readers. I wish you luck and maybe you should pursue European academic readers who may like how you write. But Thomas Mann you are not.

From each of your books I read the first few pages and I could not spend the time to read further. You think you have a great editor, but I don't think so or you didn't listen to her. The tenses hop all over the place and so many needless words are gratuitously thrown on which makes for a thick, dense, plodding, confusing and lumbering read. 

Reads like a writer trying to impress one's own self or someone else with how many words he can throw into a sentence. Anyway it is your art and I understand you have your artistic principles, but selling this will not be easy in the USA. You somehow have to draw the reader in within the first few pages or they are on to the next book.

Honestly I don't care about your low opinions of King or any other author and I don't know why you need to indulge writing long boring paragraph dismissing another author. Shame on you. Now you sit and judge other authors? What a colossal ego you have.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> Wikipedia shouldn't be a reference for writing in any case.
> 
> Also I never understood this idolization and worshiping of King.


But this advice can be found almost _everywhere_ from basic creative writing courses to entry level critique groups to professional level books, seminars, etc. Wiki and King are just two places. It's everywhere because it generally works and it's a common issue with novice-level prose. It seems you want to brush off the general advice by discrediting the specific examples of two place of many where this advice appears.



> You never know if you never try. I always took risks in my career. I always try to do something what the majority never dare to do. I never play safe and I face the challenges. This is one of the reasons I'm writing in a different, second language instead of playing on a safe ground.


Well, you tried and you got the results you got. My guess is you'll continue to get similar if you keep doing things the way you are. But you never know. There're no unbreakable rules. There're are just easier and harder paths and I think you're choosing one that makes reaching the goal of good sales much tougher than the alternative. Your choice though. Good luck.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Sean Sweeney said:


> One thing I've learned in nearly two decades of professional writing: You're not going to please everyone. Some people will like it, and some people will think it's rubbish. There are people who think Meyer and Paolini are the greatest writers in the history of the world. There are some who wouldn't use their books to line their birdcages. Everyone's tastes vary.
> 
> The only thing you can do is turn your ears off, and just work on the writing.


I'll keep this in mind. Thanks Sean! 



jackz4000 said:


> I finally read the Look Inside of all 3 of your books and now I get it. You are an "artist" with your own unique vision who will maybe find his own unique readers.


So until this time you gave your advices blindly. Good to know. Then people are asking why I'm explaining things and meditate on advices instead of accepting them immediately. Don't ask anymore, as this is the reason. And, well, I'm an artist in general. Graphic artist, as that's my second profession.  But writing a book detailed and / or colorful doesn't mean its artistic at all. It's just a different style. All those words has a proper place in those books. I use no more words than I have to.



> From each of your books I read the first few pages and I could not spend the time to read further. You think you have a great editor, but I don't think so or you didn't listen to her. The tenses hop all over the place and so many needless words are gratuitously thrown on which makes for a thick, dense, plodding, confusing and lumbering read.


Every time I hear from you guys it is wrong. But I don't see any examples. How should I learn from you, as basically this is your intention to teach me, if you're just telling; It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. So? I'm a patient guy, but just saying something is wrong without backing it up won't make me smarter.



> Reads like a writer trying to impress one's own self or someone else with how many words he can throw into a sentence.


You never heard about that possibility that an authors might have different style than mainstream, right?



> Honestly I don't care about your low opinions of King or any other author and I don't know why you need to indulge writing long boring paragraph dismissing another author. Shame on you. Now you sit and judge other authors? What a colossal ego you have.


There wasn't any low opinion about King as I like him. But I also won't idolize him as you guys do in the U.S. as there are plenty better authors than King. He is very good, but I won't say he is the best or the example what everyone should follow. King's style is for King. It's his style, no one else's. If you want to write as King, you'll be a cheap copycat, but you won't be that genius as he is as you can't learn his genius. No one can. And no, it's not ego what I have. I just try to be a simple author, someone who want to do something different. If it's shame in your opinion, that's not my problem.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Guardian said:


> But I don't see any examples. How should I learn from you, as basically this is your intention to teach me, if you're just telling; It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. So? I'm a patient guy, but just saying something is wrong without backing it up won't make me smarter.


But you have been given examples. 3 or 4 of us gave you very specific ones using your own example. You just dismissed them, explaining why you think it's okay for you to do it your way. That's perfectly fine. All well and good, no one is begrudging you your choices. But people aren't going to take any more time to give you examples when you show us you don't really want them.

You can't decide to argue with people's examples and then complain when people stop giving them. How much work would *you* put into giving that kind of help if you felt like the person you were trying to help didn't want it?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Guardian said:


> That Hungarian editor that to you're referring is actually a native Canadian editor with the native language of English and around ten+ years of experience. She has only a Hungarian family name and those punctuation mistakes... well, no one has mentioned those before, while plenty has read this book, professionals included. But if you point them out, I would gladly learn or may show to my editor, so she may watch for them next time. Please show me an example and what the mistakes are. Just one example from Pale Moonlight.


Missing hyphens in the size and misused comma after suit:
A real four foot nine fighting machine in a bright yellow suit, it was his trademark, like his Tommy gun.

Missing comma after Knuckles:
Anyway, who the hell thought that Mr. Fancy pants and his thug companions, Buzz and Knuckles would greet me with the barking of their machine guns.

Semi-colon issue plus tense change:
And it truly was a simple job; learn who is tapping Fisherman Frankie's stockpile.

Semi-colon issue:
Many would ask; what precious stock an Irish fisherman might have.

Typo:
I learned if you're good with Frankie, no only can you get a box of fish cheap...


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

Cheryl M. said:


> But you have been given examples. 3 or 4 of us gave you very specific ones using your own example. You just dismissed them, explaining why you think it's okay for you to do it your way. That's perfectly fine. All well and good, no one is begrudging you your choices. But people aren't going to take any more time to give you examples when you show us you don't really want them.


What did I dismiss immediately? The blurb? I started to revise it. You also have seen it. The punctuation errors? I've heard there are punctuation problems here and there, but I never got any examples, regardless how many times I've asked. Grammar errors? When someone finally had read it, the grammar errors are already not existed, but I got a nice compliment instead that I write better than the general population (What I don't believe at all, but I liked this compliment.  ). So, please tell me, what have I dismissed? The blind advices which was born without reading anything, and later was admitted, or the ones what some gave me and I tried to change it (i.e.: the blurb.)? So?

I believe the actual problem of yours that I meditate on advices and I don't accept everything immediately without a word as others used to do.



Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Missing hyphens in the size and misused comma after suit:
> A real four foot nine fighting machine in a bright yellow suit, it was his trademark, like his Tommy gun.


I'm not a genius in English, but I also believe that this is correct on this way, but I'm going to ask around for this one. You may use hyphens, but it's not necessary in this case.



> Anyway, who the hell thought that Mr. Fancy pants and his thug companions, Buzz and Knuckles would greet me with the barking of their machine guns.


I'm also not sure in this one that you need a comma there. The Hungarian and the English punctuation has no real difference and in Hungarian I wouldn't add a comma after that. And I wouldn't add a comma there in English either as it would serve no real purpose there.



> And it truly was a simple job; learn who is tapping Fisherman Frankie's stockpile.


I don't see any problem by switching the tense here, but maybe I'm just too tired.



> Many would ask; what precious stock an Irish fisherman might have.


"Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.". This is the rule so this semi-colon. And also that semicolon is serving a purpose to present the tone of the thought. It also may flow well with a comma, after ask, but semi-colon is also acceptable. At least by my shallow knowledge.



> Typo:
> I learned if you're good with Frankie, no only can you get a box of fish cheap...


That's a good catch. Thanks for this.


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## eBooksHabit (Mar 5, 2012)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Missing hyphens in the size and misused comma after suit:
> A real four foot nine fighting machine in a bright yellow suit, it was his trademark, like his Tommy gun.
> 
> Missing comma after Knuckles:
> ...


That is all in the first couple of pages? Dang.



Guardian said:


> You never heard about that possibility that an authors might have different style than mainstream, right?
> 
> ...I just try to be a simple author, someone who want to do something different. If it's shame in your opinion, that's not my problem.


I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's a shame.

What most in this thread are saying, is that it is one of the main reasons that you are not selling (which was the intended purpose of this thread, or so we thought).

That coupled with obvious issues, as quoted above, just in the first couple of pages, it seems like you have a lot of work to do to get this book going.

If you don't want to get another editor to make the proper fixes, I suggest that you try selling it at a lower price point. You're not selling it like you want to anyhow at your higher (current) price point, what do you have to lose by selling it for less?


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> I believe the actual problem of yours that I meditate on advices and I don't accept everything immediately without a word as others used to do.
> I'm not a genius in English, but I also believe that this is correct on this way, but I'm going to ask around for this one. You may use hyphens, but it's not necessary in this case.
> I'm also not sure in this one that you need a comma there. The Hungarian and the English punctuation has no real difference and in Hungarian I wouldn't add a comma after that. And I wouldn't add a comma there in English either as it would serve no real purpose there.
> I don't see any problem by switching the tense here, but maybe I'm just too tired.
> "Use a semicolon in place of a period to separate two sentences where the conjunction has been left out.". This is the rule so this semi-colon. And also that semicolon is serving a purpose to present the tone of the thought. It also may flow well with a comma, after ask, but semi-colon is also acceptable. At least by my shallow knowledge.


The original poster had it correct. You've got it wrong.


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## Ras Ashcroft (Feb 8, 2012)

Guardian said:


> _Anyway, who the hell thought that Mr. Fancy pants and his thug companions, Buzz and Knuckles would greet me with the barking of their machine guns._
> 
> I'm also not sure in this one that you need a comma there. The Hungarian and the English punctuation has no real difference and in Hungarian I wouldn't add a comma after that. And I wouldn't add a comma there in English either as it would serve no real purpose there.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

You need that comma in the first example (try reading it out loud without stopping for the pause that a comma provides and you'll understand). You can also get rid of the semi-colon in the second example, since there's no need for 'Many would ask' to be a separate sentence of its own in this case.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

breakaway11 said:


> That coupled with obvious issues, as quoted above, just in the first couple of pages, it seems like you have a lot of work to do to get this book going.


I'm truly curious that they're real mistakes or not as by my knowledge half of them is presumably not. But I'm not an editor and I'm already dead tired. 



> If you don't want to get another editor to make the proper fixes, I suggest that you try selling it at a lower price point. You're not selling it like you want to anyhow at your higher (current) price point, what do you have to lose by selling it for less?


Sorry, but I'm not working for free, nor for cheap. I never did. I know it's a new trend to sell everything for the price of a diet coke or less or for free, but I do not belong to this group. If something can be fixed, that one will be fixed, but I won't be cheap.



Ras Ashcroft said:


> You need that comma in the first example (try reading it out loud without stopping for the pause that a comma provides and you'll understand). You can also get rid of the semi-colon in the second example, since there's no need for 'Many would ask' to be a separate sentence of its own in this case.


Well, you could be right. As I told I'm tired already. It's 11pm already and I slept only four-five hours. I'm going to double check everything tomorrow.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

And because I officially don't listen to advices, at least as many of you claim this, here is the new version of the blurbs, special thanks to a dear friend, Rik. As I have said, speaking about things doesn't mean I don't take advices. 

For Crystal Shade:
"A Thousands stars would tell a thousand stories."
Seven year old Grace always dreamt of becoming a guardian angel. She wanted to be like those who guarded and guided her people. Wanted to be one of those who fought in that dreaded event, the Crystal Shade - but it never came. Grace did not want to see Demons. She did not want to know what evil and darkness was. And, she really did not want to die to be reborn as a guardian. But she always thought that the mysterious life of angels was so noble, such a grand adventure that sounded exciting! Until it actually happens.

And for 7PM:
A short novel series, 7 Post Meridiem - At seven in the evening something happens! The genres are different, the time and space is different, but the seven pm is the same, and that is where it starts! A noir novelette was written by the creator of the Epic Fantasy trilogy, Crystal Shade.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Someone just provided you several examples and you basically tried to argue your way out of most of them, despite the fact that your English isn't at the level to even judge whether they were correct or not.  I'm not going to give tons of examples because you'll do the same to me.

But I will tell you that beyond just pure grammar--and there were plenty of mistakes there--you have a tremendous amount of awkward phrasing and sentences that need to be read multiple times to be properly understood.  Although they may be technically "correct," it isn't good, clean writing.

Your lack of sales is proof of this, despite your trying to find explanations to the contrary.

BTW, I'm the one who said you write better than most of the general population.  This might be true, or I might be wrong, but either way that's not good enough for a novelist.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Guardian said:


> And because I officially don't listen to advices, at least as many of you claim this, here is the new version of the blurbs, special thanks to a dear friend, Rik. As I have said, speaking about things doesn't mean I don't take advices.
> 
> For Crystal Shade:
> "A Thousands stars would tell a thousand stories."
> ...


Did your pro editor also work on these? There are (once again) multiple issues with tense and awkward sentences. This is why you need so much work as a writer, and why your insistence that you don't has become ridiculous.


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## Ras Ashcroft (Feb 8, 2012)

Guardian said:


> Sorry, but I'm not working for free, nor for cheap. I never did. I know it's a new trend to sell everything for the price of a diet coke or less or for free, but I do not belong to this group. If something can be fixed, that one will be fixed, but I won't be cheap.


You're free to set your own price, since that's part of the joy of independent publishing. Just make sure that the product you sell lives up to its pricetag, especially in terms of what are seen as 'basics' by readers such as spelling, punctuation and grammar etc.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Sorry, but I'm not working for free, nor for cheap. I never did. I know it's a new trend to sell everything for the price of a diet coke or less or for free, but I do not belong to this group.


If you manage to sell a thousand copies at the lower price, then you'd clearly be coming out far ahead, financially speaking. There is, of course, no guarantee that this would happen. But it's the reason people price lower-- because books do tend to sell more copies that way. At least it's sometimes worth an experiment to see what happens.

I have to admit I'd very rarely spend $4.99 on an indie author. The book would have to be exceptional, and talked up all over the place, before I'd spend that much on it. I don't think I'd be likely to spend over eight dollars on an indie. $2.99-$3.99 is more in my usual comfort level. Of course, I tend to read romance, which usually has a lower price point anyway *shrugs*.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

gorvnice said:


> Did your pro editor also work on these? There are (once again) multiple issues with tense and awkward sentences.


No. He is actually a university teacher and an editor. So, what is awkward in these ones?


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Guardian said:


> For Crystal Shade:
> "A Thousands stars would tell a thousand stories."
> Seven year old Grace always dreamt of becoming a guardian angel. She wanted to be like those who guarded and guided her people. Wanted to be one of those who fought in that dreaded event, the Crystal Shade - but it never came. Grace did not want to see Demons. She did not want to know what evil and darkness was. And, she really did not want to die to be reborn as a guardian. But she always thought that the mysterious life of angels was so noble, such a grand adventure that sounded exciting! Until it actually happens.


Content seems fine. The execution is a mess. It needs to be edited (or if it was, you need a new editor.)



> And for 7PM:
> A short novel series, 7 Post Meridiem - At seven in the evening something happens! The genres are different, the time and space is different, but the seven pm is the same, and that is where it starts! A noir novelette was written by the creator of the Epic Fantasy trilogy, Crystal Shade.


No clue what this is about from reading the blurb. And the execution is a mess again. But I'd start over in this case rather than just try to bang the writing into shape.


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## eBooksHabit (Mar 5, 2012)

Guardian said:


> Sorry, but I'm not working for free, nor for cheap. I never did. I know it's a new trend to sell everything for the price of a diet coke or less or for free, but I do not belong to this group.


You've sold 9 copies of your book that was $4.99 for 2 months and $8.99 for 2 months. I don't know at what price point those 9 were sold, but i'll get an average of $6.99 per book.

6.99 x 9 = $63. 70% of $63 is just a tad over $44. if all of the 9 sales were at $4.99, you've earned roughly $32 after Amazon's cut. In 4 months.

That is between $8 and $11 per month. That is working for cheap, even if your books are not priced cheap, plain and simple.

I do not know if lowering your prices will work, but it could. Lowering your prices could mean more people buying your book. Yes, you will earn less $$ per book, but you will be selling more copies of the book. That can increase exposure for your other books, which are currently not selling like you would hope, and you could increase sales for those books as well. Plus, by selling more, you can improve your rankings in your niche, and thereby gaining more exposure and selling more books. At $1.99 price point, you would have to sell only 15 books per month, to make as much as you are making now per month for your $4.99 book.

If you're fine with $11/month because you are too stubborn to even experiment with a lower price point, then don't let any of us change your mind.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> So, what is awkward in these ones?


Well, to start with, "the seven p.m. is the same"? That sentence is simply odd.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Well, to start with, "the seven p.m. is the same"? That sentence is simply odd.


I get that one. I had to read it twice but it makes sense. Reading what he's written, it looks like there is going to be a series of books in different genres, all set with something happening at 7pm. So, different genre, different locations but same time of day.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Guardian said:


> So, what is awkward in these ones?


Pretty much everything. And I'm not saying that to be rude. It's the truth.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

breakaway11 said:


> because you are too stubborn to even experiment with a lower price point, then don't let any of us change your mind.


My other two work is for $0.99 & $1.33. The episodic release of the fantasy is also $1.33 at Amazon and free on Smashwords. So where should I lower them, please tell me? I'm not stubborn, but I don't want to lower these anymore. And the more expensive one sells better (If you check my results my poor sales are mostly on Amazon, but not on Smashwords.).



J. Tanner said:


> Content seems fine. The execution is a mess. It needs to be edited (or if it was, you need a new editor.)
> No clue what this is about from reading the blurb. And the execution is a mess again. But I'd start over in this case rather than just try to bang the writing into shape.


This is the second editor. The first edition of the blurbs, which was made by another editor is are still on the book's pages. But I find strange that British, Canadians and Australians understand these blurbs. The only place where they seems to be a mess is the U.S. What is the difference between British English and U.S. English? The books was also edited by following the rules of British and not U.S. English. Is it possible that there is this huge difference between the two types of English language? I don't think so... As Alice had said in Wonderland, curiouser and curiouser.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I get that one. I had to read it twice but it makes sense. Reading what he's written, it looks like there is going to be a series of books in different genres, all set with something happening at 7pm. So, different genre, different locations but same time of day.


It's not good if you had to read it twice to understand. And I read them three times and still they make no sense.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2012)

gorvnice said:


> It's not good if you had to read it twice to understand. And I read them three times and still they make no sense.


I have to agree with this that if you have to read them more than once, it's not good. But this is what I've written above. British, Canadians and Australians had understood the original edition immediately. I don't understand this... Now I'm puzzled.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

gorvnice said:


> It's not good if you had to read it twice to understand. And I read them three times and still they make no sense.


To be fair, the first time I was scanning through looking for the phrase "the seven p.m. is the same" but, since it comes towards the end of the sentence, I had to then go back and read it again in context to know what it meant.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

pretty sure all that needs to be said has been said and posts are getting much less . . . . polite. . . . .the longer the thread is open.

so conisder it locked


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