# The Thread About Serials



## I Give Up

[Deleted, may go up on blog in a few weeks]


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## kathrynoh

Thanks for posting this really helpful stuff 

In your pricing model A - did you mean $1.99 for the second book?

Also, do you do a detailed outline or have some kind of guide to where the serial is going?  I could imagine getting to the final installment and realising I needed something in an earlier book that wasn't there!


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## Fel Beasley

Thank you so much for posting this. Your insight is great and I always look forward to your posts. If you could go back and give yourself a piece of advice before you published, what would it be? Is there anything you are going to do differently between your first serial and your next one other than length?

It's awesome that you are so upfront about what works for you and what doesn't. I've read the first two of Claimed by the Alphas and I enjoyed them. Will probably get the rest of the series soon. Here's to your continued success!


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## R.V. Doon

Great tips on writing the serial, succinct and to the point. You've tapped into the heart of serial success, and I wish you continued success. Sliders was a cool show for its time.


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## kathrynoh

> Nope, it's 99 cents (a much easier sell than 1.99)


Sorry. I just realised I read it wrong


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## Becca Mills

Viola, what an extraordinary post. Thank you so much! <applause!>


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## bluwulf

Thanks for posting this!  You pretty much answered the questions I had in my other post.


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## SamanthaGrey

Thanks, Viola! This is very cool since I'm considering doing a serial


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## CristinaRayne

Thanks for posting your experience. I just launched my first serial a few days ago, and most of what you talked about were things that I was concerned about. Wow, selling 10,000 books a week is just phenomenal! Just out of curiosity, did your 1st installment start selling a lot more than just a handful of copies in your first week or did your sales only take off once you had parts 2 & 3 out?


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## LeeBee

You are incredibly generous to do this. The whole indie community owes you a debt of gratitude.


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## MarilynVix

Wow! Tons of great points. I love hearing about what is working for everyone. I guess with growing up with TV, thinking in terms of sitcoms and episodes almost comes natural. I know what you mean about imagining the scenes unfold. All the situations can wrap up, but leave one problem unsolved for the next installment.

I was curious about what you think about length for a serial. I've started with novelettes, and have a series that I will finish and eventually put into a novel length collection. The project is just turning out that way. I've got another project that is a novel length time travel romance about half done. Which do you think sales better? I mean, I've taken a few hits on comments saying they don't like the short length. But then, some love the world and characters and want a lot more. So, I think of the readers and their comments as I'm working on the next novelette. I figure I can always go back into the same world later with other characters.

Plus, I'm wondering if serialization is just making a come back. All writing in general is getting shorter. Attention spans of people is getting shorter. Our writing and literature is evolving with the internet. I mean, really, if you look at Victorian novels you can see what I'm talking about. Those things are wordy. Don't even get me started about how chatty Jane Austin is. But then, she wrote so people could read at night by the fire. People most likely visualized differently since they hadn't experienced TV.

Now, people want to digest a book or novel fast. I mean TV has simple plots and maybe one subplot. I think serials are evolving to people's new need for more with less of an attention span. Simple is better. Plus, they were popular before when magazines paid authors for the story. I've seen the original text for Les Miserables. Victor Hugo wanted to eat. The more he wrote, the more he got paid. But he did it in magazine installments, like a soap opera. 

So, I think this serial craze might just turn into a new evolved genre for writers. What do you think?


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## Michelle Maibelle

Wow, this post couldn't have come at a better time for me! I've been trying to figure out if I should just go to novels or if I should do another serialized romance. I'm still a little torn between the two... I don't know. I'd like to just do novels for the streamlining element, but I like serials because I could use the visibility and extra products out there.


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## CristinaRayne

Thanks Viola for posting the KDP graph. Nothing like visual aids to put things in perspective! If mine looks half as good as yours by the end of the month, then I'll be happy.  I was a little hesitant transitioning from full-length novels (written under a different pen name) to a serial, but the format looked like it would be a lot of fun to write, and I wanted to at least give it a shot. I'm about a week and a half away from publishing Part Two, so I have a long ways yet to see how well my story will be received.

At 5 episodes, it looks like you're probably near the end of your series, so all the best at writing that killer ending!


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## Sassafrazzled

Congratulations on your success. 
I would love for Amazon to come up with a royalty rate with serials in mind. Maybe it would mean that we need to submit at least three volumes at the start, or that the higher royalty didn't kick in until we had a certain number of releases in a series, anything that would allow us to price at .99 without taking the huge economic hit. Readers complain about 2.99 and I don't blame them, but with royalties as they are it's hard to justify going below 2.99 a lot of the time.


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## darkline

Thanks for sharing, Viola. Much appreciated. Congratulations on your success! 

I've been thinking about writing serials, too, but I wonder how much sales an average serial writer makes. I think your success is quite unique. Or not?

It would be really helpful if other serial writers shared their numbers, too. Right now I'm torn between writing a serial and a novel. The story I have in mind would work as a serial, so I'm considering my options.


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## micki

Viola--thank you for the informative post--very encouraging indeed.


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## Donna Alam

Fab. Thanks heaps for sharing.


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## Carradee

Thank you for sharing. One of my WiPs on the backburner will be a serial suspense/thriller (not sure yet which it'll be, but probably suspense). I plan to have it all written before I start releasing, but these kinds of threads are helping me think through what I plan to do with it.

Thanks!


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## Judy Powell

Thank you so much for this detailed advice, Viola.  You are so generous to share what has worked for you.  I'll definitely be following your tips as I work on future projects.  Continued success to you!


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## anniejocoby

Bookmarked this! Thanks so much for the detailed post!!!! I'm going to try my hand at an erotica serial after I get through with my next two series that I have planned, so I'll definitely come back to this when I do so. 

Thanks again, Viola. You rock!!!!


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## RachelMeyers

Great thread, thanks for sharing.

I'm interested in whether serials and shorts are going to take off more with digital publishing...a lot of novels in Victorian era were first published serially (Charles Dickens comes to mind) and Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock stories...maybe readers are circling back to that way of reading again.


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## nico

Thanks, Viola. You're so generous! 

Even though we don't write erotica or serials, this thread has been very insightful and inspirational. Maybe we can apply some of this to slower-paced novel writing, too.


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## Chrisbwritin

Excellent info, as always, Viola. Thanks!


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## vrabinec

Okay, forgive my ignorance, because I freely admit I know nothing about romance, but it would seem really difficult to pull off a serial. One of the things I THINK people love about a romance is that two characters they think belong together actually end up together. That back-and-forth of will they or won't they is a great draw, and in the end, the reader gets the payoff, the HEA. Well, if there's a sequel, they really weren't HEA, right? So, unless your recurring characters are the ones setting people up, and you only have a new couple that needs to be brought together in each book of the series, you're gonna have to break the couple up. How will reader's react to having a couple's relationship destroyed? These are people they rooted for all through the previous book. How does this work?


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## Carradee

vrabinec said:


> One of the things I THINK people love about a romance is that two characters they think belong together actually end up together. That back-and-forth of will they or won't they is a great draw, and in the end, the reader gets the payoff, the HEA. Well, if there's a sequel, they really weren't HEA, right?


HEA is one type of romance. HFN (happy for now) is also acceptable.

It's possible that a serial could also work as long as there was always progress toward the final HFN or HEA, but romance genre readers tend to get upset if there isn't at least a HFN.


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## vrabinec

J Ryan said:


> I certainly prefer a serial. That way I can move from story to story and read several at once rather than grinding through a long novel.
> 
> I mean as much as I love A Song of Ice And Fire those novels are an absolute chore to get through sometimes.





Carradee said:


> HEA is one type of romance. HFN (happy for now) is also acceptable.
> 
> It's possible that a serial could also work as long as there was always progress toward the final HFN or HEA, but romance genre readers tend to get upset if there isn't at least a HFN.


Yeah, and by the second book, the reader would realize this, and they'd know that THIS isn't really the right guy for the girl, and that there will be another one when book 3 comes out, so how enjoyable is it for the reader to know she's just making another mistake?


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## quiet chick writes

I'm reading Anna Karenina right now, and it was also published serially in its time. I can totally see how it would have been too. At the heart of things, it's an absolute soap opera! With all of the revolving POVs and storylines, it's actually quite a bit like the serial drama I'm working on. 

I can't wait to start pubbing mine. I have two episodes done and beta'ed, and I think I want to get one or two more finished before I start releasing. 

Thank you for sharing your results, Viola! Mine is more a drama than a romance, but I'll come back to share my results too (if I have any, lol!) when I get that far.


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## AgnesWebb

This is so awesome. Thank you for sharing!


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## Carina Wilder

Great thread, Viola!



> One of the things I THINK people love about a romance is that two characters they think belong together actually end up together. That back-and-forth of will they or won't they is a great draw, and in the end, the reader gets the payoff, the HEA. Well, if there's a sequel, they really weren't HEA, right? So, unless your recurring characters are the ones setting people up, and you only have a new couple that needs to be brought together in each book of the series, you're gonna have to break the couple up. How will reader's react to having a couple's relationship destroyed? These are people they rooted for all through the previous book. How does this work?


My trilogy (see below) is 3 parts of one longer tale. In one, there is no hea or even hfn; only the potential of the latter. It's based on Jane Eyre, and anyone who knows that novel knows how the story plays out. I think that may give me a little bit of leeway, but also knowing there's another book coming helps; the assumption that all will be resolved.

There was a question earlier about serials vs novels selling. I would say that yes, Viola's success is the exception and that in my experience full length novels (short ones, but still novels) are a far easier sell. But that's not to say don't try serials. I've been happy with my sales and am considering another (20,000 word instalments) over the next few months. As I'm writing the work will probably dictate to me how it needs to go.

One tricky thing is working sex in, believe it or not. Because you should have it in each instalment but it should of course be relevant. If there is a separation between hero and heroine that can be difficult, but the act of sorting it can be fun in and of itself. It's a good challenge. ETA that the sex thing, of course, need not apply for dramas or books about questing lemmings.


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## Carradee

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, and by the second book, the reader would realize this, and they'd know that THIS isn't really the right guy for the girl, and that there will be another one when book 3 comes out, so how enjoyable is it for the reader to know she's just making another mistake?


Beg pardon, I wasn't clear-it would still be the Mr. & Ms. Right as the couple, even when the end was HFN.



Laura Rae Amos said:


> I'm reading Anna Karenina right now, and it was also published serially in its time.


It was? I didn't realize that! I need to add that to my to-read list.


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## Lehane

De-lurking to thank you for this great post! I've been intrigued by the serial format, as I'm a screenwriter by training and TV/series-minded by nature. It's a neat hybrid sort of format that I LOVE reading and am excited to dive into, writing wise. This is hugely helpful for getting started!



vrabinec said:


> Yeah, and by the second book, the reader would realize this, and they'd know that THIS isn't really the right guy for the girl, and that there will be another one when book 3 comes out, so how enjoyable is it for the reader to know she's just making another mistake?


TheRo explained this well, but in a contained novel, then yes, an HEA/HFN is necessary at the end. But in a serial, each book is an "episode" toward that HEA/HFN, but (at least the serials I've read) each installment doesn't need its own explicitly happy ending. Honestly, I prefer a bit of intrigue and conflict at the end of each installment, as that's what keeps me jonesing for the next book. It's the classic soap opera urge to find out what happens on tomorrow's episode, because you know those two crazy kids will figure it out...eventually.


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## mrain4th

"Okay, forgive my ignorance, because I freely admit I know nothing about romance, but it would seem really difficult to pull off a serial. One of the things I THINK people love about a romance is that two characters they think belong together actually end up together. That back-and-forth of will they or won't they is a great draw, and in the end, the reader gets the payoff, the HEA. Well, if there's a sequel, they really weren't HEA, right? So, unless your recurring characters are the ones setting people up, and you only have a new couple that needs to be brought together in each book of the series, you're gonna have to break the couple up. How will reader's react to having a couple's relationship destroyed? These are people they rooted for all through the previous book. How does this work?"

I think you're confusing serial with series.  Imagine Dickens' "Great Expectations" being published one chapter at a time in a monthly magazine. That's a serial, one story cut into parts.  Russell Blake's "Jet" is a series; same character, different stories.


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## vrabinec

Carradee said:


> Beg pardon, I wasn't clear--it would still be the Mr. & Ms. Right as the couple, even when the end was HFN.


Ah, I get it. Okay, that could work. Kinda prolong the delicious agony.


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## kathrynoh

> TheRo explained this well, but in a contained novel, then yes, an HEA/HFN is necessary at the end. But in a serial, each book is an "episode" toward that HEA/HFN, but (at least the serials I've read) each installment doesn't need its own explicitly happy ending.


I would think that in a romance serial, the couple will have a number of obstacles that need to be overcome before they can be together and each part would deal with one of those - which is what would happen in a romance novel but a serial could make them more complete story arcs.


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## Redacted1111

I've done serials in the past but I moved to novels. I think when I'm finished with the three part series of standalone novels I'm working on, I will try a long format serial. Each book would be around 50k words but would act as a serial. That would give the reader a satisfying read, yet still push them into the next installment the way shorter serials do. My last serial was successful, for me, and I do like this format because it is easy to write quickly and see an income coming in. I don't like it because readers complain. It's hard to deal with length complains. I take bad reviews pretty harshly so I've changed my entire business model and pen names to start over. But I haven't had a fraction of the success others like Viola have had. It is a valid model and it will get you sales right out of the gate. I'm just iffy about working with short lengths anymore. 

Thank you for the info Viola. Congrats on your continued kick ass serial.


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## Crime fighters

I haven't decided if I want to do a a serial with my romance pen name - but I would just like to thank you for reiterating the point that a serial is not a novel chopped up. That kind of behavior and talk drives me up the wall. I definitely have plans for monthly serials outside of romance (going to start with 6-8 issues each) and see if they take off. 

I think this post has been helpful for all genre of serials.

Thanks!


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## LanelleH

Awesome post!  I plan to start on a serial as soon as I'm done with Mean Boys, it'll more than likely be a new adult supernatural romance so hopefully that alone will help draw readers.  As for the TV show method I've always treated my books like movies so that's not new for me.  I'm a daydreamer so it's hard not too, : ) what's going to be weird is actually writing a shorter length since I've always been a 100,000 word kind of girl.  I think I'll get over that though, depending on if I'm successful.


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## Charnell

This provides some great insight into marketing strategies and making serials. Awesome post!


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## Irisdeorre

Amazing advice thank you for sharing!


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## Guest

Hey there, Viola!  Thanks for the information.  I'll put the link to this thread in my files.  No plans for a serial now, but you never know what the future may hold!


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## Jason Halstead

Viola Rivard said:


> *Pretend You're Writing a Television Show*


Bingo!

That's what I did when I wrote my first published book. Except I didn't write it as a novel, I wrote it as 10 TV episodes, each about an hour long in my head (which meant 10k - 30k words). This was 5 years ago though, and serials weren't an option, so I lumped them together into a novel and it found a happy place.

But I tried again down the road with the serial mindset in science fiction. I wrote seven 15k - 30k novelettes, each aimed at being a TV episode and they took off. Same kind of success your seeing at first. then they plummeted when I got some sniping reviews without having acquired enough good reviews to counterbalance them. So I made an omnibus out of them and that book is currently one of my best sellers - sadly 7 $.99 books are now 1 $.99 omnibus book. Happily, the other 5 books (all novels) in the series are at $3.99 and doing well.

That's the trick though - think of a TV episode with a goal to resolve and keep the over-arching plot of the entire series as a subplot that gets worked on throughout. If you're just thinking of two or three parts with cliffhanger endings, turn it into a novel instead.


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## AssanaBanana

I'm trying the same strategy with my series, but being in Erotica it seems to be slower going. I first published January 23rd and have four books in my series out (the fourth I published a week ago). I am following pricing strategy A (1st book permafree, 2nd $0.99, the others $2.99). I also am on a two-week publishing schedule and send out mailing list updates whenever I have a new release. So far it seems to be doing well and I imagine I'd generate a lot more sales if I wrote about billionaire werewolf motorcycle clubs (to mash together the popular ones as I see it) than about well-endowed shifting dragons, lol. My sales trend resembles yours a bit, only with much smaller numbers. The point is that the general trend is headed UP.

My books are serials to a point and they are not romance, though they have romantic elements. The first series of six has one overarching plot, but each book focuses on a different set of characters getting together (sometimes it's more than two people) and each set has a different conflict. There isn't a HEA_ per se_.... more of an LEA, I guess ("lustfully ever after"), but that could be a _happy ending_ for many 

I also notice a lot of my "also boughts" are for your books (Viola), which I think is rad. You probably don't see mine as often in yours since you've got about fivefifty times the readership that I do, but it always excites me to see that my readers are buying stuff for fellow authors I bump into on KBoards. I actually started reading your series last night and can see the allure. Nice work! (Matter of fact, I've gotta go get Book 2 today because you left me hanging, d*mn you! )


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## Krista D. Ball

Thanks for sharing!


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## sandarr

This is great information, thanks for taking the time to post it. It is terrific that your books are doing so well, I hope they continue too for a long time.


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## RinG

Wow, so much great information I'm here. Thanks for taking the time to post it! 

I'm planning on working on a serial as soon as I've finished the current novel in my series, so this really helps. I always get inspired by seeing other's success.


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## CristinaRayne

Just had to say JessePearle that your covers are awesome. Just like with Viola's equally awesome covers, it made me immediately click over to Amazon to download your first book.


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## pagegirl

I've been toying with writing a serial after I finish my series. You're dead-on with all of this! A great post!


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## AssanaBanana

CristinaRayne said:


> Just had to say JessePearle that your covers are awesome. Just like with Viola's equally awesome covers, it made me immediately click over to Amazon to download your first book.


Thanks! My cover designer is one of my absolute favorite people. She can do no wrong. Even the one cover I rejected I still want to use for something. It was awesome, just a little too dark for the story it was meant for.

I love Viola's covers, too. A serial definitely needs somewhat of a uniform look to it.

Hope you enjoy my book enough to buy the others


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## pwtucker

What a great post! I've been wrestling with these issues ever since I started my serial. Each installment is 20k words, and I just published the final installment (Book 10) last Sunday, and am at a loss as to how best to go about pricing.

Currently I'm at:

#1: Permafree
#2 thru #9: $0.99
#10: $2.99
Boxed Set 2-4, 5-7: $2.99
Boxed Set 8-10: $3.99

I'm not getting a lot of sales, due in part because Book 1 averages only about 20 free downloads a day  Your point that putting all the books at $0.99 is well received, but I was scared people would look at the length of the series and decide not to dive in because eight $2.99 installments would scare them off. If anybody would like to take a look, the series is here.


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## AssanaBanana

pwtucker said:


> What a great post! I've been wrestling with these issues ever since I started my serial. Each installment is 20k words, and I just published the final installment (Book 10) last Sunday, and am at a loss as to how best to go about pricing.
> 
> Currently I'm at:
> 
> #1: Permafree
> #2 thru #9: $0.99
> #10: $2.99
> Boxed Set 2-4, 5-7: $2.99
> Boxed Set 8-10: $3.99
> 
> I'm not getting a lot of sales, due in part because Book 1 averages only about 20 free downloads a day  Your point that putting all the books at $0.99 is well received, but I was scared people would look at the length of the series and decide not to dive in because eight $2.99 installments would scare them off. If anybody would like to take a look, the series is here.


I can't speak for Viola but part of the reason to choose the $2.99 price point for most titles (in my understanding) is to keep the 70% royalties (Amazon doesn't allow you to price lower unless you're in Select). I consider both the free and $0.99 books at the beginning of my series to be loss leaders. Even though I'm still making some money on book 2 at $0.99, it's only $0.35 per sale. Also, pricing at $2.99 is a signal to readers what you think the title is worth as the person who put their time and effort into writing it. 20k words is absolutely worth that price, even moreso if it's steamy erotica.

I believe my series is worth the $2.99 and so far the only people who have complained about the price were reviewers of the free book. None of the people who have actually bought the full-price books have complained about not getting their money's worth. Actually, I think the thing people complain about the most is that my series isn't complete, not the price (and I'm madly working on that!)


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## pwtucker

JessePearle said:


> Also, pricing at $2.99 is a signal to readers what you think the title is worth as the person who put their time and effort into writing it. 20k words is absolutely worth that price, even moreso if it's steamy erotica.


Good points, Jesse. Do you think readers might hesitate about diving into a series that is complete at 10 installments long if books 3 through 10 are priced at $2.99? That they might balk upon realizing they're going to have to spend almost $30 to read it all the way through?


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## AssanaBanana

pwtucker said:


> Good points, Jesse. Do you think readers might hesitate about diving into a series that is complete at 10 installments long if books 3 through 10 are priced at $2.99? That they might balk upon realizing they're going to have to spend almost $30 to read it all the way through?


I think that's what the bundles are for 

I haven't finished my series yet (getting close to publishing book 5 of 6), so I don't have the experience to draw any conclusions yet, but my intention is to keep the pricing structure of $0.00 (book 1) - $0.99 (book 2) - $2.99 (the rest) and see what happens. Once the series is done, bundle the whole thing either for $4.99 or $5.99 (I will probably play with the prices to see what works). What I will say is that the fourth book I just released last week is selling fantastically at $2.99. Book 3 isn't selling quite so well, but I suspect that's because it got stuck in the adult dungeon briefly so lost sales due to the lack of visibility (all my titles are solidly in erotica categories).

I'm curious, why don't you have all 10 of your titles in a single bundle?


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## pwtucker

I only published the final installment this past Sunday. So say I have Books 3 through 10 at $2.99. What would be a good price for a complete bundle that large? And do you think I should scrap my mini bundles? (Books 2-4, 5-7, 8-10)?


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## Cherise

pwtucker said:


> Good points, Jesse. Do you think readers might hesitate about diving into a series that is complete at 10 installments long if books 3 through 10 are priced at $2.99? That they might balk upon realizing they're going to have to spend almost $30 to read it all the way through?


Here's what the writers of Write. Publish. Repeat suggest:

1 permafree

2-? 2.99 but once you have enough for a bundle, mention in the description a bundle that is a better deal

Have a bundle or a few that is a better deal, such as five 2.99 books for 9.99

Once you get toward the end of the series, quit mentioning the bundles that are a better deal. Presumably, if they have already forked out 2.99 each for 8 books, they are just going to be mad if they only now find out they could have gotten them for less.


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## Cherise

pwtucker said:


> So say I have Books 3 through 10 at $2.99. What would be a good price for a complete bundle that large? And do you think I should scrap my mini bundles? (Books 2-4, 5-7, 8-10)?


Here is what I might try, pricing as I went along:

1 permafree with mailing list links (just assume all the rest have mailing list links, too) Each time I released a bundle, I would update all the book descriptions (except the last few, see my post above for why) to point out that the latest bundle is the best deal, but all the other bundles are better deals than buying individual books. I would also include this information in my new release mailouts so that my readers know my plan from the beginning. I would point out this way they can read each installment as it comes out, or if they prefer they can wait and buy cheaper bundles. Note that releasing the bundles allows me to send out more new release mailouts than if I were just releasing episodes. It also means more covers, but that can be simplified with text.

2 2.99

3 2.99

1-3 bundle 3.99

4 2.99

1-4 bundle 4.99

5 2.99

1-5 bundle 5.99 4-5 bundle 3.99

etc


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## geekgrrl

What are the suggestions for pricing when starting a new series? Any thoughts on what to price the first book while it's waiting on book 2 etc? I'm not inclined to dive straight into free before I have any other books out.


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## Alex D

Thanks so much for your very generous advice, Viola. It's been great to read about your recovery and your amazing success. Congratulations and all the best! 

A question - I'm writing a serial, and was aiming for around 20k words each. But it has occurred to me that I could make the first book 15k, where there's a convenient point to stop. I'd likely make this book permafree, so the advantage of this one being shorter is that I could a) minimise the number of free words I'm producing, and b) take fewer words to discover whether readers like my idea before continuing with the rest of it. 

Do you think this is a good strategy, or not? 

Alex


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## AssanaBanana

I feel like I've had good luck with my mailing list so far, but have no basis for comparison. All I know is that it's growing. I set it up early on (shortly after the first book was released) and started including subscribe links in my front and back matter. I'm three months to the day into my publishing endeavor (I first pubbed on 1/23 and today is 4/23) and have over 30 subscribers and am steadily adding new ones each week. Not a lot, but the list is growing slowly and steadily, as are my sales.


Alex D said:


> Thanks so much for your very generous advice, Viola. It's been great to read about your recovery and your amazing success. Congratulations and all the best!
> 
> A question - I'm writing a serial, and was aiming for around 20k words each. But it has occurred to me that I could make the first book 15k, where there's a convenient point to stop. I'd likely make this book permafree, so the advantage of this one being shorter is that I could a) minimise the number of free words I'm producing, and b) take fewer words to discover whether readers like my idea before continuing with the rest of it.
> 
> Do you think this is a good strategy, or not?
> 
> Alex


Don't min-max your writing. Write it at a length that makes sense. Publish the pieces when they feel complete. Charge the price you feel it's worth. Seriously, readers will know when you've cut them short. Don't think so much about the money you're losing by making the first one permafree. You are losing no matter what, but that loss will gain you more readers, which is invaluable.

I still consider my first book worth the $2.99 I originally charged for it, but I'm giving it away for free now. When you start to write for the price you lose a whole lot of creative integrity. What does quality matter when you're just mass producing words?


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## RinG

I keep reading this thread, and going up and down on my pricing ideas for my future serial. I had thought to make the first free, then the rest 99c (I think they'll come in roar hound 25k). I know $2.99 is so much better for the 70% royalty, but since I have full length novels at $2.99, it seems wrong?


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## RachelMeyers

Rinelle Grey said:


> I keep reading this thread, and going up and down on my pricing ideas for my future serial. I had thought to make the first free, then the rest 99c (I think they'll come in roar hound 25k). I know $2.99 is so much better for the 70% royalty, but since I have full length novels at $2.99, it seems wrong?


My next project I'm planning as a serial, or several short novels. I'm thinking about pricing too, and agree I think my first will be free (or maybe 99c until the second releases, then drop it to free). I wondered about releasing them as an omnibus afterwards and charging that at a higher rate. I struggle to justify $2.99 for ~20k. But, disclaimer, I'm new to the writing side of this. Just been thinking as a reader what I would be happy to pay.

Also, I love this thread. Perfect timing for me and so many good points. Thankyou


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## H.M. Ward

pwtucker said:


> What a great post! I've been wrestling with these issues ever since I started my serial. Each installment is 20k words, and I just published the final installment (Book 10) last Sunday, and am at a loss as to how best to go about pricing.
> 
> Currently I'm at:
> 
> #1: Permafree
> #2 thru #9: $0.99
> #10: $2.99
> Boxed Set 2-4, 5-7: $2.99
> Boxed Set 8-10: $3.99
> 
> I'm not getting a lot of sales, due in part because Book 1 averages only about 20 free downloads a day  Your point that putting all the books at $0.99 is well received, but I was scared people would look at the length of the series and decide not to dive in because eight $2.99 installments would scare them off.


Just a note in case others have noticed the same: I'm finding that this model is no longer working. As of Jan 2013, I noticed a HUGE drop in my titles (serials or novels) that were structured this way. Permafree/ 99 cent to start series were losing money. I ditched the model and did better. I honestly think it's a dead paradigm. If it's working for you, great. If not, there ya go. I'm also anti bundle. I've tried it a few different times and this last one was the most obvious. A mid list serial (5 in series - completed and out for a year plus) lost well over $10K in a month by offering a bundle. Bundles are vampires. If you use them, be aware that they'll suck you dry. Sometimes throwing a book under the bus is helpful. Just be aware of it.

PS - My bestselling series is going onto 15 books at $2.99. That is the only fan driven series I have and they're the ones who made it that long. I thought there'd be 4 when I started. Don't guess what ppl will pay for something b/c u won't know until you try.


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## Alex Owens

Excellent information in this thread! I'd never considered the other side of the bundle coin... in fact I was prepping the cover to bundle the 1st 4 installments in my Crow series (to be compiled right after book 3 comes out), and now I'm having second thoughts...


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## RinG

Viola Rivard said:


> There's also the option, Rinelle, to increase the cost of your novels to $3.99, after you start the serial. I suspect they would sell just as well at that price.


Yes, this is what I'm tossing up doing. Worth an experiment at least anyway!


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## A.A

Holly, am wondering if overall sales numbers make a difference when it comes to bundles. My sales numbers are very small minuscule in comparison to yours. I tried a box set for my serial (books 2, 3 and 4) last month and it did better than I expected. I know it would cannibalise the single sales to a degree, but both they and the box set sales went well. 
But (and this is a big but!) I know you know your sales figures, and that it didn't work that way for you. Am wondering if the sales numbers/popularity/hotter genre are a factor here? ie. if most people after reading Book 1. go on to buy (single) book 2. and then 3, 4, 5 etc etc, then a box set doesn't make sense. But if something holds them back, then maybe a box set works sometimes?

(My sales numbers have taken a deep, deep dive now. The first book of my series went off-sale as of a month ago, as it's being republished by a publisher in May.)

By the way, love the new happy sig. pic!


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## Guest

Okay, is HM Ward advocating the 2.99 price point for book 2 in a romance serial?? Or is .99 cents still cool there with raising to 2.99 for book 3?


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## dotx

ShaneJeffery said:


> Okay, is HM Ward advocating the 2.99 price point for book 2 in a romance serial?? Or is .99 cents still cool there with raising to 2.99 for book 3?


She does 2.99 for each part, but I'm not sure the suggestion works for the rest of us. When you're already a bestseller writer, you'll keep selling, regardless of whether your book is 99 cents or 2.99


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## Guest

H.M. Ward said:


> Just a note in case others have noticed the same: I'm finding that this model is no longer working. As of Jan 2013, I noticed a HUGE drop in my titles (serials or novels) that were structured this way. Permafree/ 99 cent to start series were losing money. I ditched the model and did better. I honestly think it's a dead paradigm. If it's working for you, great. If not, there ya go. I'm also anti bundle. I've tried it a few different times and this last one was the most obvious. A mid list serial (5 in series - completed and out for a year plus) lost well over $10K in a month by offering a bundle. Bundles are vampires. If you use them, be aware that they'll suck you dry. Sometimes throwing a book under the bus is helpful. Just be aware of it.
> 
> PS - My bestselling series is going onto 15 books at $2.99. That is the only fan driven series I have and they're the ones who made it that long. I thought there'd be 4 when I started. Don't guess what ppl will pay for something b/c u won't know until you try.


Thanks for the info!


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## Guest

dotx said:


> She does 2.99 for each part, but I'm not sure the suggestion works for the rest of us. When you're already a bestseller writer, you'll keep selling, regardless of whether your book is 99 cents or 2.99


I assumed Hm Ward was giving info not just about her own experience but also what she'd seen across the board. Whoops. Maybe 99 cents is still the go for book 2 then.


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## Fel Beasley

I'm currently taking a workshop where we produce a novella (I'm aiming for 20-25K each) series. So this thread is very timely. However my genre isn't romance, it's just paranormal fantasy with romantic subplots. I've been really torn about pricing myself, especially since I'll be sinking about $400 into each part before publishing for editing, cover and formatting. I do have the money to invest and I don't have to see a return on it to continue to publish. I was thinking of using this novella series as a loss leader to build up my mailing list and hopefully converting some of the readers to my novel length fiction series. 

So my idea with pricing is to price everything at 99 cents, permafree the first and then bundle all six into a $3.99 box set. My hope would be to sell a lot of the bundle rather than individual episodes because of the 70% royalty rate. Looking at my genre, I don't think I can price at 2.99 and still sell. I'd rather have the sales, than the money at this point. But I could be missing something with this plan.


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## GaryCecil

pwtucker said:


> Good points, Jesse. Do you think readers might hesitate about diving into a series that is complete at 10 installments long if books 3 through 10 are priced at $2.99? That they might balk upon realizing they're going to have to spend almost $30 to read it all the way through?


I would. 10 books for $2.99 a piece, and then a bundle that's only $9.99 or whatever, just feels like a rip-off. It will also portray through your reviews. I would say, do what you would buy. Ted Dekker has his WATER WALKER series like this:

1st perma-free
2-4 - $2.99
Complete - $8.97

And he's TED DEKKER! Well-established author, who is now a "hybrid" author. So, since the book is in 4 episodes, he's really not ripping the customer's off, they can buy the stories 1-4 or 1,2,3,4 and pay basically the same price. If they want a paperback? No, problem, pay $11 versus $9. I think you have to be fair and price them equally. However, this is a business and we obviously make more money at the $2.99 price point. I see H.M. Ward coming out with $2.99 stories at under 70 pages and KILLING IT! But, she's H.M. Ward, she can do that right now. It works for her.

I'm going to release my series as such (I think!):

Episode 1: $0.99 (until I release E2, then FREE).
Episode 2: $0.99
Episode 3: $0.99
Episode 4: $0.99
Episode 5: $0.99
Episode 6: $0.99

Episodes 1-3: $2.99
Episodes 4-6: $2.99

Season One - $5.99 (eBook) $8.99 - $9.99 (Createspace paperback)

Obviously, I can still try and change things up, maybe make episodes 1-3 and 4-6 $4.99, things like that. But, at my current plan, no matter what way the customer wants to experience the story, they are still paying $6. They won't be able to write in a review (dear God I hope not!) that I cheated them, and that I made them buy the books for $3 and then sold the entire bundle for $6! How dare I! I also feel that it's just "fair." I'd see this as a good deal. $6 for a complete season (60k or more words), and I can experience them how I want to. Individually. Altogether... We'll see!

I think you should check out how Dekker warns his readers - http://www.amazon.com/Water-Walker-Episode-1-4-ebook/dp/B00I8WNXNS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1398440006&sr=8-2&keywords=the+water+walker

He does a good job of letting them know how they can experience his story.


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## Claudia King

Bundled serials are a tricky one. I personally really want to offer my serials as complete "novels" once they're done, but it definitely does have an impact on sales. Business-wise, it seems that the sensible option is to keep serials unbundled for as long as they're still making money on a regular basis, then to bundle up and channel all of your marketing into the complete edition to try and attract the crowd who don't buy serials.

Of course, it's kind of awkward to judge when, if ever, that point comes. :\
Besides which, I feel kind of mean holding off on a bundle just for the sake of money. I mean, goodness knows I need to be scraping together every penny I can make off my writing right now, but still!


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## Fel Beasley

vmblack said:


> Ted Dekker's series is clearly not long at all if the physical book is priced at $11. I could do that if I combined 2 of my serial installments and took zero royalties on the book, and mine are about the same length as Holly's. His is also only 4 installments long, total. His price is atually far higher than any others being discussed.
> 
> FM Beasley--I really can't see why you'd put it out in serial form at all unless you're price anchoring with that. ESPECIALLY in fantasy, you'll lose your shirt on the serialized stories if people buy them that way. You should consider releasing them all at once.
> 
> Bundling $.99 stories is usually a no-brainer. But you should seriously consider why you're doing $.99 in the first place. There are reasons--I'm going to do it--but you need to understand why you're doing it and use it as a tool because it's a really bad price. For $2.99, bundling more questionable in value, but the individual stories are more viable at that price point.


This is definitely worth thinking about. Thank you for the advice!


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## Carradee

vmblack said:


> Bundling $.99 stories is usually a no-brainer. But you should seriously consider why you're doing $.99 in the first place. There are reasons--I'm going to do it--but you need to understand why you're doing it and use it as a tool because it's a really bad price. For $2.99, bundling more questionable in value, but the individual stories are more viable at that price point.


This matches what I'm thinking for my planned urban fantasy suspense/thriller. It looks as if each episode will be around 7.5k words, so I'm definitely going to bundle it-but I have an idea that will make the length a marketing point. Once I get to try it out, I'll share the idea and how it worked for me. I'm going to write the entire thing before I start releasing it, though.

At that length, I'll definitely be seeking to put each episode for $0.99, first one permafree. I'm not sure how many episodes there will be, but I'm currently suspecting around 7 and have a cover mock-up that has gotten positive feedback from some folks in my target audience. I also plan to bundle it with a discount for the reader who buys the whole bundle, which would actually earn me _more_ money, thanks to how the percentages work.

I may even release the complete set at the same time as I start releasing it as a serial. Hmm. That would be interesting.


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## 58907

Bookmarked! Great info.


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## RinG

Hmm, yes, bundling would be an issue. If I have 6 stories at $2.99, then bundling them all together at 9.99 (highest you can go for the 70%, and higher than I'd feel comfortable charging for a single book), that's still way less than buying each book individually. Pity $1.99 isn't a valid price point.


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## Mahalo

Viola Rivard said:


> I would also add that you don't have to spend $400 an entry. Let me know if you need resources for cheap proofs and cover design. My entries run me around $60-$80 each.


I'd be interested in your proof options, Viola!


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## EC

I bookmarked the thread the other day and I shouldn't have come back to it - I'm confused now   

Okay, romantic erotica with a genuine romantic arc and plenty of steamy sex - 6 x 5000 words plus potentially a bundle. 

Where's the price point for that? I was thinking first one perma-free + 5 x 99 cents = one bundle at 2.99. 

Am I way out with that?


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## Carradee

EC said:


> I bookmarked the thread the other day and I shouldn't have come back to it - I'm confused now
> 
> Okay, romantic erotica with a genuine romantic arc and plenty of steamy sex - 6 x 5000 words plus potentially a bundle.
> 
> Where's the price point for that? I was thinking first one perma-free + 5 x 99 cents = one bundle at 2.99.
> 
> Am I way out with that?


The individual prices sound reasonable to me, but I'd consider putting the bundle at $3.99--it's still a discount for the reader, and it gives you room to run $2.99 short-run sales. That way it's a win-win on both sides.


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## Fel Beasley

EC said:


> I bookmarked the thread the other day and I shouldn't have come back to it - I'm confused now
> 
> Okay, romantic erotica with a genuine romantic arc and plenty of steamy sex - 6 x 5000 words plus potentially a bundle.
> 
> Where's the price point for that? I was thinking first one perma-free + 5 x 99 cents = one bundle at 2.99.
> 
> Am I way out with that?


Because of your genre, you could use the 2.99 price point and probably do well. As for bundling, you could take the advice above and not bundle with that price point. Look at the sellers in romantica and see what they are asking for. You can search for short reads and then genre to see what is selling at your length.


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## EC

Will do - thanks very much Carradee and Fm Beasley.


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## GaryCecil

vmblack said:


> Ted Dekker's series is clearly not long at all if the physical book is priced at $11. I could do that if I combined 2 of my serial installments and took zero royalties on the book, and mine are about the same length as Holly's. His is also only 4 installments long, total. His price is actually far higher than any others being discussed. As you are talking about 6 serials at 60k--yeah, again, that's a little more than 2 of my shortest ones and less than 2 of my longest ones.
> 
> FM Beasley--I really can't see why you'd put it out in serial form at all unless you're price anchoring with that. ESPECIALLY in fantasy, you'll lose your shirt on the serialized stories if people buy them that way. You should consider releasing them all at once.
> 
> Bundling $.99 stories is usually a no-brainer. But you should seriously consider why you're doing $.99 in the first place. There are reasons--I'm going to do it--but you need to understand why you're doing it and use it as a tool because it's a really bad price. For $2.99, bundling more questionable in value, but the individual stories are more viable at that price point.


I see what you're saying, and I'm going to quote my favorite horror villain, Chucky. "It's ain't the size that matters; it's what you do with it." *HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER* *KNIFE IN HAND*

I wanted to do a 1-3 and 4-6 bundle because--at some later date--I'd be able to put them on Bookbub. It's the only reasoning for my decision. You can't put 25k word serial parts up for Bookbub. But you can bundle them together and, as long as they are 150 pages, you can apply for the ad. Since, Bookbub is the hottest thing going, it makes sense. It gives me three chances to get on with Bookbub ( 1-3, 4-6, and 1-6) rather than one (1-6). You see?


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## von19

GaryCecil said:


> I see what you're saying, and I'm going to quote my favorite horror villain, Chucky. "It's ain't the size that matters; it's what you do with it." *HYSTERICAL LAUGHTER* *KNIFE IN HAND*


----------



## rosclarke

Viola Rivard said:


> I lump negative reviews into two categories: Non-Target Audience (NTA) reviews and Quality (Q) reviews . So what's the difference? An NTA review is someone who read the book, and for whatever reason, it just didn't click with them. It's important to understand that nothing is universally loved, and there will always be people like this. Accept it, and don't lose any sleep.
> ...
> 
> If you learn to separate your reviews as such, you'll find that the NTAs become less discouraging and you appreciate the Q's because they're telling you how to be better.


I actually think both kind of reviews are telling you how to be better. If you get a lot of NTA reviews, then you need to check your cover, blurb, title and categories to make sure that they are signalling correctly for your book. If you get a ton of reviews telling you how much they hated all the sexytimes, for instance, check that your cover doesn't look like a sweet romance. And if they're complaining that it's not hot enough, maybe take the naked guy off the cover. Because if you're selling your book to a lot of readers who don't like what you write, chances are you're not selling it to a lot of the readers who will actually love it.

Of course some of it's just individual taste within a (sub)genre and you can't do anything much about that. But if there are obvious patterns in your reviews, pay attention to them.


----------



## GaryCecil

Viola Rivard said:


> At this point in my serial, when I'm getting a review that says 'I hated the characters' or 'the story is stupid', I don't even bat an eye, because I have thousands of readers that love the characters and the story. I wanted to draw a distinction between the two types of reviews because people who are just starting out do not have the validation of thousands of readers. Early on, poor reviews can be very difficult to cope with, and it's important to understand that there's nothing that can be done to mitigate all bad reviews. You just have to take each as it comes, and make sure that if there's something of value in it, you don't pass up the opportunity to improve, but not _all _reviews are valuable.


WORD! ^^^^

No matter what you do, or how good you do something, there will always be the haters out there. People still try to ban Harry Potter books. I mean, come on, are you kidding me? The truth is, that we are so far along in society, and our mind's perceive what's "good" and what's "bad" through years of randomness, shaping up into what we call "our feelings." There are things I can't STAND, but that doesn't mean they are not good or bad, they're just not "me." Now, had I grown up a hundred miles away from my hometown and middle or upper-class instead of lower-class, that "feeling" I have may be completely different.

I may love THIS instead of THAT. And you know what? There's not a damn thing I could do about it. I'm not saying I believe in fatalism (sweet word by the way, look it up, if you don't understand it), but I do believe that when we "love" things or "hate" things it's completely out of our control by the time we are able to make the distinction. Therefore, it's okay to get one-star reviews, and you shouldn't look at the floor for answers. You should, as Viola mentions above, move forward. Believe in yourself and your abilities, and know that, if you try really hard and are proud of what you produced, then it doesn't matter. You win. Five-stars, two-stars, one-stars. You're still a winner.


----------



## Carina Wilder

> At this point in my serial, when I'm getting a review that says 'I hated the characters' or 'the story is stupid', I don't even bat an eye, because I have thousands of readers that love the characters and the story. I wanted to draw a distinction between the two types of reviews because people who are just starting out do not have the validation of thousands of readers. Early on, poor reviews can be very difficult to cope with, and it's important to understand that there's nothing that can be done to mitigate all bad reviews. You just have to take each as it comes, and make sure that if there's something of value in it, you don't pass up the opportunity to improve, but not all reviews are valuable.


I like this statement.

One thing people need to remember is what prompts a person to write a review: either they particularly disliked or particularly liked the work, and on some occasions they want to write it to support the author. Sometimes the reviewer who writes first is one of the ones who disliked the work, but other readers are intelligent and happy to make up their own minds. Each time a person adds themselves to my mailing list I check that off in my mind as a positive review, even if it's not public, because it's stating "I like what you do; keep it up." The public poor reviews hurt, of course, but as you say, there's very often something to learn from them and it's worth trying to listen and extract whatever information you can, sting though it may.

I've only ever written reviews of books I liked, and there are many books I've liked that I've never reviewed. I think it's important to remember that this is the case for many, many readers.


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## EC

vmblack said:


> If you have it cross-listed in a true romance category, 5,000 words at $2.99 will not go over well. If it's just romance > erotica, it should be fine. Mine are five times that long, and I still take a big hit for length in reviews. There are readers who dock 1 to 3--yes, 3--stars for 25,000 words for $2.99.
> 
> Anything under 10,000 in a serial is a dangerous length for romance at any price. 10k takes the average American reader 40 minutes. It takes a really fast reader (of which there are many in romance) 20 minutes. That's about the same length as a 30-minute show without the commercials, and it's long enough for waiting to pick up the kids from school or a doctor's waiting room, etc. You don't want it to take people too long to choose your book versus how long it takes to read! No one is happy with that outside of erotica. So personally, I'd try to stay above 10k, even at $.99.
> 
> That's why I suggest using $.99 very strategically. There is no viable price point between $.99 and $2.99. None. And $.99 is a rough place to be.


Thanks very much I'll take on board everything you say. I'm listing in the Romance Erotica and Erotica categories, I'll put an effort into mollifying the negs due to length by being upfront about it. However, I think it will be inevitable - it seems that anything shorter is going to be hammered by a certain coterie.

I'm just waiting on my covers coming in - I'm hoping to be live May 1st - I'll report back June 1st how I got on, including how many haters had a go at me


----------



## christianem

Hi Viola! Thanks for the post! I just want to ask a quick question - do you have any advice on what makes serials sell better on Apple? I have a romance serial, it sells decently on Amazon with Book 1 permafree then the rest at 2.99. All my books are 20k+words long. My BN sales are approx 16% sales of my income, Apple is just 8% the rest is Amazon. Do you think it's because of my pricepoint? If I didn't know Amazon would quickly price match, I'd be really tempted to sell my books on Apple at .99 just to see if my income would increase.


----------



## AssanaBanana

christianem said:


> Hi Viola! Thanks for the post! I just want to ask a quick question - do you have any advice on what makes serials sell better on Apple? I have a romance serial, it sells decently on Amazon with Book 1 permafree then the rest at 2.99. All my books are 20k+words long. My BN sales are approx 16% sales of my income, Apple is just 8% the rest is Amazon. Do you think it's because of my pricepoint? If I didn't know Amazon would quickly price match, I'd be really tempted to sell my books on Apple at .99 just to see if my income would increase.


Everything sells better on Amazon. If you're selling that well on Apple right now, you're actually doing better than a lot of people. (Okay, you're doing better than me, lol... I guess I am not 'a lot of people')

Right now, Amazon is 75% of my sales, All Romance Ebooks and B&N are close to tied for 10% each. Apple doesn't even rate for me for how few sales I've gotten there relative to my total. So if there are any tricks, I'd love to know them, too.


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## Nic Saint

Thanks for sharing your experience so generously. I just love reading success stories . Good luck with all your endeavors!


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## christianem

Viola Rivard said:


> http://www.appannie.com/books/ibooks-store/book/851180888/book-ranking/#type=best-ranks
> http://www.appannie.com/books/ibooks-store/book/866010883/book-ranking/?success=1#type=best-ranks
> 
> A large portion of my Apple readership is international. My books, for whatever reason, are more popular on iTunes than Amazon CA and AU. If you look at my latest two books, they both launched higher in several international rankings than in the US. Judging by reader feedback, most of my international readers, with the exception of UK, come from iTunes. I can't say why exactly this is, though.


If I finish a new trilogy, I'm going to set Book 1 as permafree and price everything at $.99. I'll see if it's the $.99 price point that attracts more readers on Apple. Will share if something good happens. But for now, I need to finish that new trilogy first. =/ Thanks for answering my question! 



JessePearle said:


> Everything sells better on Amazon. If you're selling that well on Apple right now, you're actually doing better than a lot of people. (Okay, you're doing better than me, lol... I guess I am not 'a lot of people')
> 
> Right now, Amazon is 75% of my sales, All Romance Ebooks and B&N are close to tied for 10% each. Apple doesn't even rate for me for how few sales I've gotten there relative to my total. So if there are any tricks, I'd love to know them, too.


There was one month when my Apple sales was twice as much as B&N and equaled to 1/3 of my monthly income. But after that, sales dropped and became stagnant.  That was the month when Book 1 just became free. I guess, my better question would be, what do I need to do to make my permafrees stay visible?


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## CristinaRayne

No sense in letting a finished story just sit there. I would publish it with a "surprise, I'm publishing it a little early this time!" message to your fans, but leave the rest of your schedule unchanged just in case of life's unforeseen problems.

Congrats on finishing your series!


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## nseneb

The fact that you worked at Gamestop just floored me! I spend too much time in that store trailing behind my 11 year old son. I jot story notes on a memo pad while he browses and has conversations with the guys behind the counter that I do not understand! Writing is my dream job; standing behind that counter is his!

I'm going to be embarking on my own serial journey this summer and your advice has been so enlightening. There is one thing that I don't understand. How did you get the email addresses from your buyers? Do they come from the purchases? Do they come from people coming to your website after reading? Is there a service?

Thanks!
Nakeesha


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## von19

Viola Rivard said:


> Also, the only thing I love almost as much as writing, is gaming, but I'd rather work a year frying fries at McDonald's (which I've done) than work another month as a GameStop manager.


Really? But it seems like heaven.

Sent from The International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Al Dente

Hey, I remember you from back when you published your first installment. I'm so glad to hear that your book has taken off. Keep up the great work!


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## H.M. Ward

Viola Rivard said:


> Thanks for telling me that! I've been scratching my head for weeks thing "Oh, well I _have _to make a bundle, right?"


No, you don't have to bundle anything. I don't. And I did try it several times, just to see what happened. The results were poor.

I wouldn't bundle again for me, or suggest it for others. You have to remember that I started the serials at $2.99 when no one knew who I was. I didn't get any extra slack or exceptions b/c I was HM Ward. I was a midlist nobody who made enough money to put food on the table, while working 2 jobs at the same time. I put them at $2.99 b/c that's where the highest profit margin is. That's also the comfy spot where there are less critical ppl. Its been said in here already, so I won't go into it much, but the FREE, 99 centers, 2.99-3.99ers, $5 ers, etc are all different sets of readers. Free rarely cross over to paid. 99 centers rarely cross over to $2.99. Amazon put one of my novels on sale last Christmas for 49 cents and people complained that the 2nd book was $4.99. Duh, the 1st one was on sale. Anyway, there are a lot of posts about the price points and the type of buyers, so I won't go into that again. Just pointing it out in case you haven't seen one. Search. It's good info.

I got a few messages asking about price points and perma free/ 99 cent/ 2.99 structure. I don't think it's working as well as it had been when Hocking was using it. The price had shock value. Ppl were amazed they could get a whole book for 99 cents. They're no longer amazed. The market shifted.

Do I think everyone should sell novellas for $2.99? No. Sometimes you want to throw something under the bus just to see what happens. Sometimes it pans out. Sometimes it doesnt. I did notice that it requires a lot more 'sales' at the free and 99 points to get traction. The algorithms are affected and its harder to be seen. This whole game comes down to visibility. The cheaper price points are working against you.

As for the price gouging line of thought - all of my books are lendable and in libraries, so the reader can get every single one for free. I personally, happily, paid $5.99 for novellas of my fav authors. Hubby won't. Novella readers are a different set of ppl and that's OK.

IMHO, under $5 for a novel is still an impulse buy. I try to keep my prices in that area, avoid free and 99 cents, unless its a limited time promo.

PROMOTIONS are key. And that doesn't mean you need BB or to pay for an ad. Run promos on your books to draw in new readers. Your current fan base, even if its just your mom, will mention your book is on sale. You can NOT put it on sale if its free or 99 cents b/c it's already the lowest it can go. But, if it's $3.99 and today it's 99 cents, well... maybe its worth a try. It gives you something to talk about and news to spread.

I'm talking about serials at RWA this year. There are many different ways to approach it. Mine are NOT one book split into parts. Each is its own story, but ties into a greater story. Ferroland. lol. Then all of the serials tie together, but can be read as separate series. It's a totally different paradigm. It's a chance to think outside the box and give your readers a chance to go deeper into a story than they would have thought possible. It makes the characters real and the story a living, breathing thing. It's amazing.


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## quiet chick writes

It's worrying to hear that 99c is a deadzone for serial episodes. My natural length for this WIP is coming out around 12-15K per episode, and that's a length I really love writing at and doesn't bog me down too much so I can get them out quickly (or well, quickly for me). But I wouldn't want to ask $2.99 for that, especially since it's not erotic, and though romantic it's mostly a drama. But knowing 99c is a deadzone anyway, I was thinking of just doing something odd like $1.49 per episode (so at least I get 52c instead of 35c), then waiting until the season is complete (6 episodes) before I even worry about attracting new readers who aren't already on my list. 

For those pricing under $2.99, do you guys think it makes sense to pull the individual episodes once the season is complete and bundled? Since they'll make less money anyway and the season will be a better deal for the readers too? Is that a dumb idea? lol! Or should I just leave them out and encourage people to buy the bundle? Is that common sense among readers anyway, that the season bundle will be a better deal?


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## Carina Wilder

I still feel that $.99 is a good place to gain impulse buyers, often leading to mailing list additions. I've promised my readers $.99 releases so that they can grab them, and I do find this helpful (and I know they appreciate it from various sweet emails I've been sent). 

My first serial installment was about 14k words. I released it, and it and the subsequent books continue to sell, and I've gained some loyal readers as a consequence. I put the second at $1.79, because it was longer, and the third I released at $.99, intending to bump it up. The funny thing is that the numbers for the first and third are identical; the numbers for the second are lower, as if people skip it because of the extra 80 cents. So finally I lowered it (not sure if it's reflected on the page yet). Right now I'm more interested in readers than money, and mine is a slow build to be sure. But I read a lot of reviews, and releasing short works at $2.99 can be killer. 

Honestly, though, stand alone novels still beat out serial installments, for me anyhow. My next release will be a novel along the same lines as my trilogy and I'll be curious to compare numbers.

I do have an 18-page erotic short on an alternate pen name that sells at that price point, but that's a whole other genre from romance, really.


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## H.M. Ward

Laura Rae Amos said:


> It's worrying to hear that 99c is a deadzone for serial episodes. My natural length for this WIP is coming out around 12-15K per episode, and that's a length I really love writing at and doesn't bog me down too much so I can get them out quickly (or well, quickly for me). But I wouldn't want to ask $2.99 for that, especially since it's not erotic, and though romantic it's mostly a drama. But knowing 99c is a deadzone anyway, I was thinking of just doing something odd like $1.49 per episode (so at least I get 52c instead of 35c), then waiting until the season is complete (6 episodes) before I even worry about attracting new readers who aren't already on my list.
> 
> For those pricing under $2.99, do you guys think it makes sense to pull the individual episodes once the season is complete and bundled? Since they'll make less money anyway and the season will be a better deal for the readers too? Is that a dumb idea? lol! Or should I just leave them out and encourage people to buy the bundle? Is that common sense among readers anyway, that the season bundle will be a better deal?





Laura Rae Amos said:


> It's worrying to hear that 99c is a deadzone for serial episodes. My natural length for this WIP is coming out around 12-15K per episode, and that's a length I really love writing at and doesn't bog me down too much so I can get them out quickly (or well, quickly for me). But I wouldn't want to ask $2.99 for that, especially since it's not erotic, and though romantic it's mostly a drama. But knowing 99c is a deadzone anyway, I was thinking of just doing something odd like $1.49 per episode (so at least I get 52c instead of 35c), then waiting until the season is complete (6 episodes) before I even worry about attracting new readers who aren't already on my list.
> 
> For those pricing under $2.99, do you guys think it makes sense to pull the individual episodes once the season is complete and bundled? Since they'll make less money anyway and the season will be a better deal for the readers too? Is that a dumb idea? lol! Or should I just leave them out and encourage people to buy the bundle? Is that common sense among readers anyway, that the season bundle will be a better deal?





Laura Rae Amos said:


> It's worrying to hear that 99c is a deadzone for serial episodes. My natural length for this WIP is coming out around 12-15K per episode, and that's a length I really love writing at and doesn't bog me down too much so I can get them out quickly (or well, quickly for me). But I wouldn't want to ask $2.99 for that, especially since it's not erotic, and though romantic it's mostly a drama. But knowing 99c is a deadzone anyway, I was thinking of just doing something odd like $1.49 per episode (so at least I get 52c instead of 35c), then waiting until the season is complete (6 episodes) before I even worry about attracting new readers who aren't already on my list.
> 
> For those pricing under $2.99, do you guys think it makes sense to pull the individual episodes once the season is complete and bundled? Since they'll make less money anyway and the season will be a better deal for the readers too? Is that a dumb idea? lol! Or should I just leave them out and encourage people to buy the bundle? Is that common sense among readers anyway, that the season bundle will be a better deal?


A good book is a good book. I'm not paying for the words, it's the story. It doesn't matter if its 500 words or 50,000. Charge what you want.

The pricing paradigm is an issue if u novels r 99 cents and u serials are $3.99. U can't do that b/c it'll make u readers brains blow up. The only exception is a sale/ promo. Otherwise you should have a pricing structure if u write more than 1 type of literature. (Short story, novella, novel).


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## Guest

H.M. Ward said:


> A good book is a good book. I'm not paying for the words, it's the story. It doesn't matter if its 500 words or 50,000. Charge what you want.
> 
> The pricing paradigm is an issue if u novels r 99 cents and u serials are $3.99. U can't do that b/c it'll make u readers brains blow up. The only exception is a sale/ promo. Otherwise you should have a pricing structure if u write more than 1 type of literature. (Short story, novella, novel).


I love your answers, H.M.

How do you deal with lots of reviews complaining about $2.99 for a 20,000 word book?


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## Noelle Stevens

I released a 4-part serial beginning March 3rd. The first part (30,000 words) I priced at .99 (I only sold a handful as I did no marketing and no one had heard of me). When I released the second part (21,000 words) I made the first book permafree and part 2 I set at $1.49. The permafree immediately started getting hundreds, then thousands of downloads, without me doing any marketing whatsoever. To date I've had 20,000 downloads of the first part.

When I released part 3 (25,000 words), I set it at $1.49 as well, and it's sold very well. I released the fourth and final part a few days ago. It's 35,000 words, and although I worried about pricing it too high, I set the price to $2.99. I've sold 400 since I released it Saturday night, which I think is great for an unknown author. I also released a bundle of all 4 parts on Saturday night for $4.99, which is also selling well.

I was worried that my readers would balk at paying nearly double for the final part, so I've been pleasantly surprised.


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## Vidya

Viola and Holly [and everyone else who might have an opinion]:

I would love to price 20,000 words at 2.99 but I looked up HM Ward and Sara Fawkes on Amazon. Both got a lot of positive reviews. But both also had a slew of one star reviews that said they loved the story but complained that 2.99 for 20,000 words is a rip off. Even tho Sara writes erotic romance and everyone says erotica is a genre where you can sell even short stories for 2.99. of course there is a difference between e-rom and erotica. The latter is just sex with no romantic plot at all.

So I got put off by the idea of getting nasty comments like these 2 got.

Then I had an idea:

I'm writing a YA PNR. My idea: Publish the first 10,000 words of it and make it permafree. 
Then charge 2.99 for all subsequent parts which will be 20,000 words each.

But I will also add to each part 20,000 words of another work. That way no one can say I charged 2.99 for only 20,000 words. I charged it for 40,000 words. I will make clear that with each book.

Now I realize it would probably work best if the 2nd serialized book was in the same genre but I don't have already written something in the same genre.

I could make the 2nd book either my YA rom com or my light women's fiction.

But those have already been published.

So instead I would make it my humorous anecdotes about life in India. Most of those have already been written and are ready to go.

The heroine of my YA PNR longs to visit India, so I would kind of tie it in by saying she is currently reading this book of india stories.

Tentative title of that book: Life in Crazyville, India.

This way I kind of get readers to read a book they might not otherwise have. And I bet most will like it once they start reading though I can't be sure since some romance fans may not enjoy it if all they want is romance.

So I get publicity for that book by tying it to a much more popular genre and story. Various reviewers have said they love my India anecdotes and find them funny.

What do you think of this idea? The main idea is to combine 20,000 words of any serial with 20,000 words of any other already written work so that it gets more attention and also prevents readers complaining you priced way too high. Perhaps the writers on this board could use that idea to combine stories if they want to price at 2.99 but like me, are afraid of the backlash. You could use a story that has good reviews but isn't selling that well, to give it more attention.


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## Sarah M

The thing is...people are going to complain about something, anything. It's the nature of reviews. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to make everyone happy. You can't. Viola's and HM's models work pretty well, despite the complaints. 

*skulks back into lurk-mode*


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## Maria Romana

Vidya said:



> I would love to price 20,000 words at 2.99 but I looked up HM Ward and Sara Fawkes on Amazon. Both got a lot of positive reviews. But both also had a slew of one star reviews that said they loved the story but complained that 2.99 for 20,000 words is a rip off. Even tho Sara writes erotic romance and everyone says erotica is a genre where you can sell even short stories for 2.99. of course there is a difference between e-rom and erotica. The latter is just sex with no romantic plot at all.
> 
> So I got put off by the idea of getting nasty comments like these 2 got.


Yes, they get lots of these nasty comments, as pretty much all serial-writers get, *regardless of length*, because there are some readers who just don't like the idea of a serial and want to tell the world about it. Despite the unavoidable unpleasant reviews, however, these authors -- especially HM Ward -- are laughing all the way to the bank. Ask yourself whether you want to be loved or whether you want to love what you do for a living!


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## bluwulf

Maria Romana said:


> Yes, they get lots of these nasty comments, as pretty much all serial-writers get, *regardless of length*, because there are some readers who just don't like the idea of a serial and want to tell the world about it. Despite the unavoidable unpleasant reviews, however, these authors -- especially HM Ward -- are laughing all the way to the bank. Ask yourself whether you want to be loved or whether you want to love what you do for a living!


I need to remember this.


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## Briteka

Viola Rivard said:


> Thanks for telling me that! I've been scratching my head for weeks thing "Oh, well I _have _to make a bundle, right?" because it's the conventional thing to do, but also knew that my rankings would subsequently plummet. I think I just needed to hear (esp. from someone who knows what the heck they're talkin' about) that bundles aren't mandatory. I may still do it for my cheaper serial, but for the $2.99 it makes so much sense not to bundle.


I would usually recommend bundling. Your rankings ARE going to crater eventually. You are having great longevity and rankings with your current series, so I'm not sure what to recommend. But usually, rankings are going to crater after 30 days no matter what and then fall again after 60 days. If you're selling a series at .99, you will make more money from people buying the bundle, and it adds more shelf space. Eventually when you fall in ranks and your series becomes just something in your backlist, you're going to want people buying the bundle and not each individual short because you will make more money.


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## Chrisbwritin

Noelle Stevens said:


> I released a 4-part serial beginning March 3rd. The first part (30,000 words) I priced at .99 (I only sold a handful as I did no marketing and no one had heard of me). When I released the second part (21,000 words) I made the first book permafree and part 2 I set at $1.49. The permafree immediately started getting hundreds, then thousands of downloads, without me doing any marketing whatsoever. To date I've had 20,000 downloads of the first part.
> 
> When I released part 3 (25,000 words), I set it at $1.49 as well, and it's sold very well. I released the fourth and final part a few days ago. It's 35,000 words, and although I worried about pricing it too high, I set the price to $2.99. I've sold 400 since I released it Saturday night, which I think is great for an unknown author. I also released a bundle of all 4 parts on Saturday night for $4.99, which is also selling well.
> 
> I was worried that my readers would balk at paying nearly double for the final part, so I've been pleasantly surprised.


Congrats, Noelle! I just snagged book one and can't wait to read.

I'm so happy to read about your trajectory, because I'm in the early stage of something similar right now (at least, I hope I am lol, in that it continues and winds up equaling sales). Book 1 of my NA serial (25k each installment) released on March 28th and was selling around 25 copies a day at .99. It went permafree five days ago and has had 5300 free downloads since then. I released book 2 yesterday with a pre-announced promotional price of .99 for the first three days only, and then plan to raise it to 2.99 at the end of the day tomorrow.

So far, at the .99 price point, I've sold 188 copies of book two since yesterday morning. I'm now TERRIFIED to raise the price as planned because I'm afraid it's going to just fall off and I'll lose that traction. At the same time, I can't get locked into that .99 price point long term, so I'm torn. Can I ask you (and Viola and Holly, and any other serial or short form series authors) if you found that it took a while for the # of free downloads to turn into sales on the subsequent books? Don't get me wrong, 188 copies in less than two days is THRILLING, but I'm wondering if that # will increase as free readers actually have a chance to read and maybe clink on the link to book 2? I know I'm getting some reads, because my mailing list has doubled since it went free, but I have no clue what kind of click through rate to hope for or expect. I'm also wondering if you've seen an increase as each new book comes out?

Anyway, thank you all for sharing all this information, it truly is priceless to those of us learning this frontier and I hope to one day return the favor!


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## Briteka

Chrisbwritin said:


> Congrats, Noelle! I just snagged book one and can't wait to read.
> 
> I'm so happy to read about your trajectory, because I'm in the early stage of something similar right now (at least, I hope I am lol, in that it continues and winds up equaling sales). Book 1 of my NA serial (25k each installment) released on March 28th and was selling around 25 copies a day at .99. It went permafree five days ago and has had 5300 free downloads since then. I released book 2 yesterday with a pre-announced promotional price of .99 for the first three days only, and then plan to raise it to 2.99 at the end of the day tomorrow.
> 
> So far, at the .99 price point, I've sold 188 copies of book two since yesterday morning. I'm now TERRIFIED to raise the price as planned because I'm afraid it's going to just fall off and I'll lose that traction. At the same time, I can't get locked into that .99 price point long term, so I'm torn. Can I ask you (and Viola and Holly, and any other serial or short form series authors) if you found that it took a while for the # of free downloads to turn into sales on the subsequent books? Don't get me wrong, 188 copies in less than two days is THRILLING, but I'm wondering if that # will increase as free readers actually have a chance to read and maybe clink on the link to book 2? I know I'm getting some reads, because my mailing list has doubled since it went free, but I have no clue what kind of click through rate to hope for or expect. I'm also wondering if you've seen an increase as each new book comes out?
> 
> Anyway, thank you all for sharing all this information, it truly is priceless to those of us learning this frontier and I hope to one day return the favor!


For me, it takes 72 hours, like clockwork, to start seeing buys from permafree sales.

As for your pricing, are you currently on any best seller lists? And if not, what are your genres and overall ranking?

You have to sell 6 copies at .99 to produce the same income for a single 2.99 sale.

So 31 copies at 2.99 to equal what you're making at .99. Personally, I would raise the price at that rate because I sell more than 31 copies in that timeframe at 2.99, but you could sell more or less. You're in a totally different genre, and I have no idea how it works there. If you're on a best seller list or hovering around a best seller list, I'd keep it at .99.

In fact, if I were new at this method... or even if I was in a new genre, I think I'd give the permafree two weeks and keep the price for others at .99 during that time and see if I can get on a best seller list. If I can, I'd keep the price at .99. If I can't, I'd raise it to 2.99.


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## Chrisbwritin

Briteka said:


> For me, it takes 72 hours, like clockwork, to start seeing buys from permafree sales.
> 
> As for your pricing, are you currently on any best seller lists? And if not, what are your genres and overall ranking?
> 
> You have to sell 6 copies at .99 to produce the same income for a single 2.99 sale.
> 
> So 31 copies at 2.99 to equal what you're making at .99. Personally, I would raise the price at that rate because I sell more than 31 copies in that timeframe at 2.99, but you could sell more or less. You're in a totally different genre, and I have no idea how it works there. If you're on a best seller list or hovering around a best seller list, I'd keep it at .99.
> 
> In fact, if I were new at this method... or even if I was in a new genre, I think I'd give the permafree two weeks and keep the price for others at .99 during that time and see if I can get on a best seller list. If I can, I'd keep the price at .99. If I can't, I'd raise it to 2.99.


Thanks for the input! I'm not sure which list would make the difference, like would it have to be one of the major ones (romance or contemp romance?) or a is a smaller, more niche one still a consideration for the above advice? Here is what it looks like right now (book 2 at .99):

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,427 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#25 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Sports
#80 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age
#87 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age

And then the freebie is:
#198 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
#3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Sports
#12 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance

And is also in the top 25 in free New Adult and College romance, which sometimes shows up on the book page and sometimes doesn't, randomly.


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## Briteka

Chrisbwritin said:


> Thanks for the input! I'm not sure which list would make the difference, like would it have to be one of the major ones (romance or contemp romance?) or a is a smaller, more niche one still a consideration for the above advice? Here is what it looks like right now (book 2 at .99):
> 
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,427 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
> #25 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Sports
> #80 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age
> #87 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age
> 
> And then the freebie is:
> #198 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Free in Kindle Store)
> #3 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Sports
> #12 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Romance
> 
> And is also in the top 25 in free New Adult and College romance, which sometimes shows up on the book page and sometimes doesn't, randomly.


I would stay at .99.

I don't have any experience with those genres except for New Adult, and that's for your permafree. But with that many best seller lists, I'd think the extra visibility will push you past 6 times what you'd make at 2.99, and I can almost guarantee you'd fall off if you raised to 2.99.

If the paid book is in New Adult as well, look out because you should be hitting the top 100 at any moment. My last New Adult hit top 100 around 1600 paid in store.

Personally, I think you're going to see a very successful series, and I'd be hesitant to change anything at this point.


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## Chrisbwritin

Briteka said:


> I would stay at .99.
> 
> I don't have any experience with those genres except for New Adult, and that's for your permafree. But with that many best seller lists, I'd think the extra visibility will push you past 6 times what you'd make at 2.99, and I can almost guarantee you'd fall off if you raised to 2.99.
> 
> If the paid book is in New Adult as well, look out because you should be hitting the top 100 at any moment. My last New Adult hit top 100 around 1600 paid in store.
> 
> Personally, I think you're going to see a very successful series, and I'd be hesitant to change anything at this point.


I appreciate the advice (and the vote of confidence >.< So the bigger question is, if I leave book 2 at .99 if/when I move to 2.99 for book three and for books of a similar length, do you think I'll have trouble/get pushback for that price? I put quite a bit of up front cash into each book, and at .99 it would take me months to make back what I invest in covers, editing, publicity etc. so I can't stay there for future books.


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## Briteka

Chrisbwritin said:


> I appreciate the advice (and the vote of confidence >.< So the bigger question is, if I leave book 2 at .99 if/when I move to 2.99 for book three and for books of a similar length, do you think I'll have trouble/get pushback for that price? I put quite a bit of up front cash into each book, and at .99 it would take me months to make back what I invest in covers, editing, publicity etc. so I can't stay there for future books.


If your book is sticky in the best seller lists, then go for 2.99 on the next and see what happens. You'll get bad reviews... I get bad reviews at .99... I even get bad reviews on permafrees for length, but that's going to happen anyway.

I would keep the price at .99 for an entire series, but I have no money really invested. I used to buy stock photos and did my own covers, but now I just use Fiverr, so each book costs me $10.

You should definitely be on an up slope for awhile. Your free sales are very good, and they'll mix with the best seller visibility. Another thing to think about is the Popular list. I'm 99 percent sure that Amazon's algorithm takes price into account when it deals with the Pop list. It places a higher value on books with a higher price.


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## Chrisbwritin

J Ryan said:


> I wish I could sell like the rest of you. Now I'm getting discouraged.
> Only 750 free downloads and less than 30 of books 2 and 3 combined in 3 weeks.
> I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.
> 
> So I'm doing a 3 part PNR with each part being 15-25k. I was going to do free, .99 and 2.99.
> 
> Now I'm thinking of free, 2.99 and 2.99.
> But I'm worried nobody will buy it at that price, especially based on my current crappy sales.
> Everyone that reads my books say they like them, even my negative reviews praise the writing and story, but sales aren't following.


J.- I have no experience in self publishing so I can't offer any advice because I'm in the same boat as you, trying to figure out what the best route is, but I CAN tell you that the reason the book started off well in my case is because I already have an established readership from the books I have out through my publisher. PLEASE don't get discouraged, it took me 24 books and three years before I started selling more than a few hundred copies a month, and that was with several small publishers behind me. It take time for many of us, so please keep plugging. It's just a matter of hitting that ONE book at the right time, and things will take off.


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## Guest

Maria Romana said:


> Yes, they get lots of these nasty comments, as pretty much all serial-writers get, *regardless of length*, because there are some readers who just don't like the idea of a serial and want to tell the world about it. Despite the unavoidable unpleasant reviews, however, these authors -- especially HM Ward -- are laughing all the way to the bank. Ask yourself whether you want to be loved or whether you want to love what you do for a living!


Excellent!

Yeah, I'm pretty much in love with HM Ward's attitude, approach and way of thinking.


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## Redacted1111

It takes awhile. It's rare to have a big hit out of the gate. I'm at about nine months and still only making 4-5 hundred dollars a month from all my distributors. I had a lot to learn during that time and I made a lot of mistakes. All you can do is keep working. Don't get discouraged.


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## Chrisbwritin

Briteka said:


> If your book is sticky in the best seller lists, then go for 2.99 on the next and see what happens. You'll get bad reviews... I get bad reviews at .99... I even get bad reviews on permafrees for length, but that's going to happen anyway.
> 
> I would keep the price at .99 for an entire series, but I have no money really invested. I used to buy stock photos and did my own covers, but now I just use Fiverr, so each book costs me $10.
> 
> You should definitely be on an up slope for awhile. Your free sales are very good, and they'll mix with the best seller visibility. Another thing to think about is the Popular list. I'm 99 percent sure that Amazon's algorithm takes price into account when it deals with the Pop list. It places a higher value on books with a higher price.


Thanks again, I'll keep an eye for now and see how things pan out as I go!


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## Noelle Stevens

Chrisbwritin said:


> Congrats, Noelle! I just snagged book one and can't wait to read.
> 
> I'm so happy to read about your trajectory, because I'm in the early stage of something similar right now (at least, I hope I am lol, in that it continues and winds up equaling sales). Book 1 of my NA serial (25k each installment) released on March 28th and was selling around 25 copies a day at .99. It went permafree five days ago and has had 5300 free downloads since then. I released book 2 yesterday with a pre-announced promotional price of .99 for the first three days only, and then plan to raise it to 2.99 at the end of the day tomorrow.
> 
> So far, at the .99 price point, I've sold 188 copies of book two since yesterday morning. I'm now TERRIFIED to raise the price as planned because I'm afraid it's going to just fall off and I'll lose that traction. At the same time, I can't get locked into that .99 price point long term, so I'm torn. Can I ask you (and Viola and Holly, and any other serial or short form series authors) if you found that it took a while for the # of free downloads to turn into sales on the subsequent books? Don't get me wrong, 188 copies in less than two days is THRILLING, but I'm wondering if that # will increase as free readers actually have a chance to read and maybe clink on the link to book 2? I know I'm getting some reads, because my mailing list has doubled since it went free, but I have no clue what kind of click through rate to hope for or expect. I'm also wondering if you've seen an increase as each new book comes out?
> 
> Anyway, thank you all for sharing all this information, it truly is priceless to those of us learning this frontier and I hope to one day return the favor!


Chris - thanks for picking my book up. I actually picked yours up as well. It looks like your sales are going really great! I've found that the sell-through from part 1 to part 2 is about 15 %, and sell-through from part 3 to part 4 is about 88%. Going from part 3 (at $1.49) to part 4 (at $2.99) will be interesting, but it's too early to tell as part 4 has only been out for 4 days.

This business is always interesting, but being able to experiment is why I love being an Indie!


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Noelle Stevens said:


> Chris - thanks for picking my book up. I actually picked yours up as well. It looks like your sales are going really great! I've found that the sell-through from part 1 to part 2 is about 15 %, and sell-through from part 3 to part 4 is about 88%. Going from part 3 (at $1.49) to part 4 (at $2.99) will be interesting, but it's too early to tell as part 4 has only been out for 4 days.
> 
> This business is always interesting, but being able to experiment is why I love being an Indie!


That's great info, thank you! I will post once I have some more data (my book three comes out on 5/20) and let you know how it goes. I'd love to hear how book 4 does for you as well!


----------



## Noelle Stevens

Chrisbwritin said:


> That's great info, thank you! I will post once I have some more data (my book three comes out on 5/20) and let you know how it goes. I'd love to hear how book 4 does for you as well!


I'll try to remember to report back in a couple of weeks. This thread had been very helpful. Thank you to everyone who's contributed!


----------



## KaSonndraLeigh

Thank you for putting all of this into perspective. I'm so glad a friend suggested that I come check out the Writer's Cafe. She said you're in for a treat because those ladies truly know what they're doing. AND you'll find other authors who don't mind sharing the tips and secrets to their success. I hope that I'll be able to contribute to the discussion in some way as well once I start to publish the installments in the serial I'm working on behind the scenes. Busy but fun times ahead!


----------



## Krista D. Ball

atmaweapon said:


> I'm not convinced that readers are as married to price points as we think they are. While I'm sure there are some readers who only buy free and $.99 ebooks, I believe there are others who generally stick with $.99 to try out new readers but will buy from authors they know and love at higher prices. We tend to obsess a lot about the differences between various price points but I've experimented with just about everything between free and $5.99, and my books have still sold at all of those prices.


A lot of people said early on that What Kings Ate & Wizards Drank wouldn't sell at $7.99. It sold, and still sells. It's just not an impulse buy, which is fine.

OTOH, I struggle to give away Spirits Rising. Moral of the story? It's all magical pixie dust.


----------



## EC

KaSonndraLeigh said:


> Thank you for putting all of this into perspective. I'm so glad a friend suggested that I come check out the Writer's Cafe. She said you're in for a treat because those ladies truly know what they're doing. AND you'll find other authors who don't mind sharing the tips and secrets to their success. I hope that I'll be able to contribute to the discussion in some way as well once I start to publish the installments in the serial I'm working on behind the scenes. Busy but fun times ahead!


Welcome to Kboards and you will learn a lot quickly here.

After reconsidering I've decided to release my original 6 x 5000 words serial as a single novella priced at 2.99. I'll need to do some minor rewriting to aid the flow however that won't take me long. I expect to pub the story some time next week.

I'm feeling a bit spooked by the change to serials as pointed out by Joe Nobody. That thread certainly impacted my decision.


----------



## Guest

Briteka said:


> We were never discussing how to "write from your heart". We were discussing how to increase sales. My advice is very good for people that would like to sell well. It's probably not so good for people that want to be a "fulfilled" starving artists.


You can can write to sell well AND write from the heart.

These "art of writing" arguments are so d*mn obnoxious. There are writers who claim they don't care if their books EVER sell. Well, goody, goody for them.

I'm not one of them, thank you.

Update: Sorry Viola. I saw that you'd like this thread to be about serials. Sorry for contributing to the derailment. I'll stop now.


----------



## Capella

Here are my thoughts on serials for the day:
This week I had a friend beta my new stuff and I was worried about telling her it was a serial, only to find out she loves cliffhangers and thinks lots of other people do as well. Me personally I usually grumble in my head about it but I've never not one-clicked the next part. Never left a bad review on one either. I guess secretly I too like the thrill of being left hanging, provided it's not for too long or too expensive.
I also think there are different kinds of cliffhangers. There is a kind that feels manipulative because the author hasn't made you care for the characters and has to use the cliffhangers as a cheap last resort to keep you interested. but there is another kind of genuine cliffhanger that comes because you could follow those characters forever and the cliffhanger makes it more exciting. Viola is a good example of this kind. she has it down. I'm not sure I've got it down, but I have to say that after writing 8 full length novels, writing serials have taught me a LOT about keeping the plot tight and introducing likable characters quickly. Even if I decide I'm not a serial writer I know writing these will make me a better writer in general. There is no spare space in a serial. I have to deliver as much of an entertainment punch as I can in a short amount of words. I find it a thrilling challenge, if a bit frustrating at times.
I love being able to try anything as an independent author. Those are my thoughts on serial writing today. Lol. Thanks for this thread Viola. I hope we serial writers can use this thread to discuss our work kind of like the New Adult thread helped those authors when that genre was new and exploding.

Anyone else have any thoughts on what makes a "good" or "bad" cliffhanger in a serial? Whether such things even exist?


----------



## RachelMeyers

Capella said:


> Anyone else have any thoughts on what makes a "good" or "bad" cliffhanger in a serial? Whether such things even exist?


I will be interested to see other people's answers! I agree, you definitely have to have the rapport with the readers built up. As a reader, I have to care about characters to want to read on. It can be the most omg cliffhanger-y moment in the history of moments, but if I'm not invested in the outcome, meh.

I honestly think that a lot of readers like cliff-hangers, provided they don't have to wait too long for resolution. Which is why monthly/fortnightly releases are a good idea if you're writing a serial. I know I read a lot of series books when I was younger that ended with cliff hangers and I loved that rush at the end where you have to run straight onto the next book to find out what happens. You can't sustain it forever, obviously, but I think for a set number in a series it works well. Also, I think more and more TV shows are using this technique now - especially with Netflix and box-sets, viewers don't necessarily have to wait a whole week to find out what happens next, they can just click "next". But the compulsion to click "next" (and waste five hours of your life binge watching) comes out of those cliff hanger endings. Imo, anyway.

I am working on part one of my serial at the moment, it's historical romance-ish, set during WW2. No idea if it will work, but as so many people have said before, that's kind of the joy of self-publishing. You can try things out and experiment.

On a parallel topic: what serialised books are you reading at the moment? I am on the hunt for new suggestions (I will scroll up and look at signatures as soon as I sub this comment...)


----------



## Capella

vmblack said:


> Cliffhangers are exactly like any other tease. They can be very, very good--and when good, they can make it way BETTER than without the tease because of the pent-up anticipation. Or they can be bad, when there's anticipation and no payout.
> 
> ahem


Seems like you are the expert on the 'tease'. Best pick up your books too. Lol. 


RachelMeyers said:


> On a parallel topic: what serialised books are you reading at the moment? I am on the hunt for new suggestions (I will scroll up and look at signatures as soon as I sub this comment...)


I just read Viola's. Amazing. Even if you aren't into her genre you could learn a lot from the way she paces things and sustains tension, not to mention builds very lovable leads. And I've read H.M. Ward's The Arrangement (as much as is out), but then I love everything she writes. She's a totally different style, but another good example of keeping people hooked. I don't know of any historical romance serials at the moment but I'm looking forward to seeing yours when it's out. I love historical romance.



CristinaRayne said:


> The first episode in my serial just went permafree today (thanks Viola for the help!^^) I've had pretty good sales for the past couple of weeks, so I'm nervous (and cautiously excited) about what will happen now. I'll post again in a week or two and let everyone know the effects it had on the sales of Part Two.
> 
> edit: To answer @Capella, I'm fine with cliffhangers as long as they're not purely used as a gimmick and the story up to that point makes me anticipate the next book/episode. I won't continue with a story just to find out what happens next if I don't care about the characters at all.


Will check it out and wishing you much success with your perma-free. Remember to give it a bit of time. Every time one of my books goes perma-free I have a mild freakout like 'ok when is this going to translate to paid?' But it will.
Edit: I checked it out. Oh my goodness, fantasy erotic romance? I didn't know that existed. Any way to put the title in your sig or make it bolder on the cover? That's a really unique and awesome premise and I would have one-clicked it sooner.


----------



## Capella

Great, now the reader in me has scampered away with 4 new books from this thread and the writer in me knows I have to do another round of edits on my serial.  Boo!


----------



## Steve Voelker

Does anyone follow the Netflix model and release all of the episodes in a serial at once? Like episodes 1-6 all drop on the same day, and maybe a boxed set to let people pick them up at a discount?

As a reader, I think I would like that model. You know you can snap them up as fast as you read them. There is no danger that the author won't finish the series (which I do worry about with authors who don't have a track record). The permafree episode 1 would still work to draw in the reader. 

Just curious.


----------



## Briteka

Voelker58 said:


> Does anyone follow the Netflix model and release all of the episodes in a serial at once? Like episodes 1-6 all drop on the same day, and maybe a boxed set to let people pick them up at a discount?
> 
> As a reader, I think I would like that model. You know you can snap them up as fast as you read them. There is no danger that the author won't finish the series (which I do worry about with authors who don't have a track record). The permafree episode 1 would still work to draw in the reader.
> 
> Just curious.


I wouldn't do this.

One of the main benefits of serials is the increase in time the title remains visible.

Once your 30 days are up, your title become invisible to a lot of people. Having another release in the series after 30 days means that it gets in front of eyes that wouldn't see it otherwise.

Also, you never want to release a box set that will hinder the upward trend of the series. Box sets are for after the series starts dropping and begins to become just another title in your backlist. You really want the box set to be the thing people buy later on, especially if you're selling at $.99 because you'll make more money once the individual releases leave Amazon's promotional ecosystem.


----------



## Briteka

Viola said:


> I love the Netflix model.


Not to derail your thread again , but the Netflix model leaves a lot of be desired as well. One of the biggest joys of watching television is discussing each episode online or with a friend. If True Detective or Game of Thrones followed the Netflix model, a lot of the joy would be sucked out of it for me because it would be impossible to really get the same post-discussion awesomeness out of it that I do now.

This year, True Detective was something else. It spawned a million fan conspiracies and people all over the internet were digging through every frame of the show to come up with wild theories. It was awesome and would never have happened if it was released in bulk.


----------



## Mr. RAD

Voelker58 said:


> Does anyone follow the Netflix model and release all of the episodes in a serial at once? Like episodes 1-6 all drop on the same day, and maybe a boxed set to let people pick them up at a discount?
> 
> As a reader, I think I would like that model. You know you can snap them up as fast as you read them. There is no danger that the author won't finish the series (which I do worry about with authors who don't have a track record). The permafree episode 1 would still work to draw in the reader.
> 
> Just curious.





Viola said:


> There's a big reason why it wouldn't work. A large part of serial readership doesn't understand the structure behind writing a serial. They'll view it as an author chopping up a book to make money, rather than selling them all together. That's one of the reasons it's important to pace out releases. It helps to keep each entry a distinguishable plot arch. Also, if you release a serial entry a month in a six entry novel, that's six months of consistent visibility, versus releasing everything at once and falling off the charts after a month. I definitely understand where you're coming from though. I love the Netflix model.


Does Viola's sage advice also apply to releasing all books in a _series_ all at once a la Netflix, assuming each book can be read independently of the others?


----------



## Jacqueline_Sweet

I honestly don't understand people who claim to be utterly against *all* cliffhangers. I will agree--in an instant--that some cliffhangers are unfairly placed or not suitably anchored in the book.

But when a cliffhanger is done well? Hoo boy, it can be great. Think of the end of Empire Strikes Back (which my little guy has made me watch a dozen times recently) where Han Solo is captured, Luke is maimed, and we all find out who Darth Vader is. That's a cliffhanger.

Or, the end of Supernatural, season one, where Our Heroes and Their Awful Father are taking a victory lap after saving the world and get smashed by a truck-driving demon.

Or, the Fellowship of the Ring--Boromir dead, two hobbits captured, and two hobbits sneaking off behind enemy lines.

It is not hard to come up with great examples of cliffhangers that work. The key is at figuring out _how_ they work. Each of these examples I've listed have a cliffhanger immediately after the emotional resolution of the story arc. So the audience is given emotional closure, some plot closure, and then a great leap towards a new plot and new emotional entanglements.

That's the cliffhanger trick.


----------



## Jan Thompson

Totally. Nothing wrong with cliffhangers. But it must be done well. Done poorly, and the readers feel cheated.


----------



## KBoards Admin

Hang on while we do a bit of thread maintenance: we're going to split the "writing from your heart vs writing to market" fork into its own thread. There will be a bit of disruption to this thread for a few minutes while we break it apart and then piece the sections back together. Should be done in about ten minutes.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Briteka said:


> One of the main benefits of serials is the increase in time the title remains visible.
> 
> Once your 30 days are up, your title become invisible to a lot of people. Having another release in the series after 30 days means that it gets in front of eyes that wouldn't see it otherwise.


I think this is the biggest detail that serials capitalize on. The initial boost in visibility that cascades from one release to the next, particularly if your releases are occurring on a shorter than 30-day schedule. One book might still be in the HNR spotlight when you release the next in the series... update your epub with links to the second book and it feeds your sales. (I'm speculating, but the thought has crossed my mind a few times.)


----------



## JeanetteRaleigh

Viola, you're definitely one of the authors I've been watching to see 'how it's done' as we share a category. So I really appreciate a post like this.

My novels are also serial romance novels.  I found success putting all 5 of them into a collection.  I charge $5.99 which saves the reader a significant amount and puts me up into the 70% profit margin. So it works out well all around.


----------



## Capella

Hey you get back to writing! Need more elf king! The problem with serials is my zero patience level blarrrghhh...



CristinaRayne said:


> She is. I instantly had to buy the 2nd part after finishing the first. There was no way I could wait, so I'm glad I discovered her serial when she already had two parts out!
> That's an intriguing idea, but before I even start contemplating another model, I need to complete the serial I'm currently writing! (which is what I should be doing right now instead of chatting)


----------



## EC

JessePearle said:


> I think this is the biggest detail that serials capitalize on. The initial boost in visibility that cascades from one release to the next, particularly if your releases are occurring on a shorter than 30-day schedule. One book might still be in the HNR spotlight when you release the next in the series... update your epub with links to the second book and it feeds your sales. (I'm speculating, but the thought has crossed my mind a few times.)


I've got three titles in number 1, 2, 3 spot in my genre - and I'm a bit furious with myself for not spreading them out more.


----------



## Jason Halstead

Briteka said:


> Not to derail your thread again , but the Netflix model leaves a lot of be desired as well. One of the biggest joys of watching television is discussing each episode online or with a friend. If True Detective or Game of Thrones followed the Netflix model, a lot of the joy would be sucked out of it for me because it would be impossible to really get the same post-discussion awesomeness out of it that I do now.


This must be where I fail as a social human being. On the rare occasions I watch television, I don't care if anybody else has seen it. I want to be entertained and provoked. Then again, I also really enjoy going to the movies by myself on the rare occasions I can...

As for how serials fall into this - my experience definitely supports the 2 - 4 week pacing. Different genre, but similar results. If you do it all at once you'll catch hell from readers for being greedy. And, simply put, that's exactly what it is. If you've got them all at once, release them all at once. Serializing serves many purposes, including gauging reader response and trying to tweak as you go, but ultimately it's about maximizing our earnings and trying to offset the low price the industry has driven us to. Starving artist or not, writers need to eat too.


----------



## pwtucker

Do people agree that the best pacing to release your installments is every 2 weeks? I was planning to do so once a week, but that sounds now like it may be too fast?


----------



## Donna White Glaser

My understanding is once a month to take advantage of the 30 day new release lists.


----------



## pwtucker

Does the New Release List only benefit books that are launched to high sales, or do all new releases benefit? 

Edit: For example, I just checked the New Releases for Paranormal Romance, and #100 was ranked around 4,900. So if your books aren't going to hit that high, is there any point in waiting?


----------



## pwtucker

VM, two simultaneous serials? You crazy. How are you handling the promotion to your email list?


----------



## Twizzlers

JessePearle said:


> update your epub with links to the second book and it feeds your sales. (I'm speculating, but the thought has crossed my mind a few times.)


How do you do this when you use a service like D2D? It's one epub for B&N and Apple and Apple won't upload if you have competitor links.


----------



## Capella

CristinaRayne said:


> I'm writing, I'm writing! So glad you like the story so far.  Reviews are finally starting to come in, and the consensus seems to be: too short, don't like to read books in segments. I'll be releasing Part Three in a week & 1/2, but I'm seriously considering releasing parts 4-6 together as a final novella depending on reader response at that point. I'm totally having fun writing in this format, but if the readers are unhappy, then I think novella or full novel series may be the way to go for future books.


Seriously, don't listen to serial reviews about length on a free book. For the first part being free and the second being .99, I think the parts are fine. Especially for erotic romance. There will always be the vocal complainers, but my guess is a lot of readers are more like me, and will just happily one click through the series. I'm saying this only as a reader. My thought on finishing was not 'boo short', but 'MOAR WHERE IS MOAR'. And you peeps on this thread need to understand, I have always skipped sex scenes when reading romance, since book sex just doesn't do it for me, and I'm one clicking erotic romance all over the place simply for the characters and storyline in these serials. For the sheer entertainment value.
Go with Viola's suggestion about making each a little longer, if you really want to appease. But I honestly think there is no length that will stop the complainers. I think serial writing takes a lot of bravery because of the reviews. But despite that, serial writers are doing well and having fun. If I were you, I would finish this out, and if you really hate the hate that comes with being a serial writer, write a series of novels or novellas next. 
I admit that I'm a bit nervous to publish my first serial, but I know that even the best serial writers are getting tons of angry reviews, and I will too. And yet there will be others like me out there, quietly devouring the serials and happily moving to the next serial, because they'd rather be reading more books than reviewing. 
I will say that my commitment to not leaving reviews now that I'm an author is very shaky these days with all of these good serial writers in need of good reviews. The reader in me goes, oh man, why can't I leave a review? I disagree with those other reviews. The writer in me goes, Amazon doesn't want writers reviewing, Amazon might start deleting their five stars if they think I'm a shill because I have a KDP account. Sigh.


----------



## Capella

vmblack said:


> I review with my non-KDP acct.


Do you think they link accounts by IP though? Again, I'm not trying to be sketchy. But every once in a while it feels unfair that as an author I can't review, when I spend hundreds a month on Amazon buying books as a reader. I know some authors review swapped, but none of the books I want to review are by authors who asked that of me.


----------



## pwtucker

Quick question: serials seem to flourish in paranormal and NA, but how do they fare in the other categories?


----------



## Sassafrazzled

J Ryan said:


> How do you do this when you use a service like D2D? It's one epub for B&N and Apple and Apple won't upload if you have competitor links.


You can do it in D2D by making multiple entries for each book and selecting only to distribute to the store whose backmatter you are using. It's not ideal but it's ok so long as you make sure to keep track of which version you are sending where.


----------



## Briteka

pwtucker said:


> Quick question: serials seem to flourish in paranormal and NA, but how do they fare in the other categories?


Before I moved to erotic romance, I'd done short story serials in horror, fantasy, YA and Gay. Gay serials sold slightly worse than my erotic romances (but the niche is also a lot smaller) and the rest sold probably about 75 percent worse. If my erotic romance serials fell is sales, I'd probably still release that way because most of my sales come from my huge backlist anyway, not the current series I'm releasing. If you can keep up a constant release schedule, I think having a large backlist is more important than having a current hit.


----------



## juliacavallero

Hello all! I wanted to say how inspiring it is to see you authors sharing your knowledge and passion for writing for one another. It's really heartwarming to know how generous everybody is in the community.

Someone earlier asked whether it would be a good idea to make the first book of a serial perma-free from the beginning, and I think Viola suggested that it *could* be a good idea, to establish a mailing list. Do you all find this to be true? I imagine that whatever sales are made by the first book before it goes perma-free would be negligible compared to the value of establishing a readership by the time the second book comes out. What do you guys think?


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

VM: 
Confused. 
Wasn't your permafree always a perfmafree? Would you do it differently now?


----------



## Lady Vine

I took a slightly different approach with my release dates. I released my second book in the series a mere 3 days after the first. I didn't want to give the any time to forget about the me. It also acted as some kind of guarantee that the series wouldn't be abandoned before they got to the good stuff. Then I released the third and final book 2 weeks later. The first book started out at $0.99 and became permafree about 3 weeks after the release of book 3, with the others selling at $2.99. I'll probably adopt this release schedule for all of my serials.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Great info, Viola, and love the new pic!

VC-Awesome timing on that post. I was debating whether to hold off on releasing the second in my erotic wolf shifter series until the first got some traction permafree, but now I'm going to put it out ASAP.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Viola said:



> I'm trying BKnights out on the 9th, so I'll let you know how that goes.


I'm interested in seeing how serials hold up with this advertiser, too. I was thinking of scheduling an ad for the day I release Part Three of my serial, but I just recently tried an ad on GenrePulse who claimed great download rates for romance and erotica. Needless to say I was less than impressed. 

Also, congrats on the completion of your awesome serial!


----------



## Madison Johns

J.S. Cooper and Helen Cooper does well with:

Book one .99
Book two .99
Book three $2.99


----------



## Madison Johns

I'm not sure how many of you know that there are readers waiting for a bundle because they don't want to invest in the extra money for each title. I know for a fact that there are some readers waiting for Viola to bundle her books for that reason and she kinda already put it out there that she was going to. My bundles are not serials or romance, but they had no bearing on sales whatsoever. I still sell more single titles than I do the bundles. Sales for me have gone down overall since January and I can't say that my bundles have anything to do with it. That's why I'm planning to go ahead with publishing a paranormal/shapeshifter romance serial. You could always price yours like $4.99.


----------



## Madison Johns

That's exactly what happens, but I still try to get my newsletter people to get more involved by offering them prizes if they reply to my newsletter. I just don't get the best open rate with Mail Chimp.


----------



## Briteka

Madison Johns said:


> I'm not sure how many of you know that there are readers waiting for a bundle because they don't want to invest in the extra money for each title. I know for a fact that there are some readers waiting for Viola to bundle her books for that reason and she kinda already put it out there that she was going to. My bundles are not serials or romance, but they had no bearing on sales whatsoever. I still sell more single titles than I do the bundles. Sales for me have gone down overall since January and I can't say that my bundles have anything to do with it. That's why I'm planning to go ahead with publishing a paranormal/shapeshifter romance serial. You could always price yours like $4.99.


I agree about bundles. I get A LOT of questions of when the entire series will be free (it was shocking the first few times because I price fairly. When you take into account the first permafree, the price for all episodes is always inline with the price if you were to buy it in novel format. Now I just accept that some people are like that!) and I always explain that it won't ever be free, but it will be available in a bundle at a discounted price. This seems to make them happy.


----------



## Sally C

Thank you so much for sharing this, Viola - it's really useful! Congratulations on your sales


----------



## Madison Johns

I did eventually put my bundle on sale for $.99 for a BookBub ad and wound up on the USA Today Bestsellers list. When I put a bundle together it was for marketing reasons. I knew that eventually I'd put it on sale with an ad and that hopefully it would perform well.


----------



## KaraKing

Thank you for this very informative post. I am bookmarking this one!


----------



## Steve Voelker

So I have a question about serialized romance.

Supposed you are writing a six part serial.

Does each entry need to have a "payoff" scene?
Or do the first five build the tension for the payoff in the sixth?
Or is it like every other episode?
Is there some generally accepted pattern authors follow?


----------



## Briteka

Voelker58 said:


> So I have a question about serialized romance.
> 
> Supposed you are writing a six part serial.
> 
> Does each entry need to have a "payoff" scene?
> Or do the first five build the tension for the payoff in the sixth?
> Or is it like every other episode?
> Is there some generally accepted pattern authors follow?


In the past, every part I released had a sex scene. I'm now trying to get away from that. I have a series that I'll start releasing on the first, and it gets away from the one scene a book. I don't know how it'll sell. I'm starting to think that it's the romance side of my erotic romances that are selling them. But I'm not sure. It's just that I've written so many sex scenes in the last two years that I'm so completely bored and everything is starting to seem the same.


----------



## Briteka

Viola said:


> I have a sex scene in one of each of my novelettes. I don't do multiple sex scenes, because my books have a heavier focus on romance, rather than sex. If you're referring to sex in general, if you're writing erotic-romance then I would recommend sex in each entry. However, it doesn't necessarily have to be the type of sex that readers came into the serial for. For example, if you're writing a BDSM story, you may be able to get away with a couple entries that only feature vanilla sex, especially towards the end, once readers are emotionally invested in the characters. Most people don't realize that my six-part werewolf menage only has actual menage scenes in two entries, parts two and three. My readers were okay with this, because by the time I released part four, they weren't really reading for the menage sex anymore, they were reading to see how the romance developed between the characters.
> 
> As a side note, I said I would mention what I decided to do about my next serial launch. I've given it a lot of consideration, and have decided to go with a 99 cents, $2.99, $2.99 pricing model and see how it goes. My mailing list has grown considerably, and my most recent launch put me at #104 in the paid store, which wasn't too shabby considering I didn't have a cover (Zon glitch) for over a day. I want to price the first entry of Bound at an impulse-buy price, because I have a feeling it's going to attract a lot of new readers. Judging by how well my permafree moved readers into my second book when it was $2.99, I suspect the price jump will only be a minor issue, so long as I'm up-front with readers about the price. I'll let you know how it goes later this month.


So no permafree on the next series?


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm planning a new PNR serial that will be around 40-50k words each. Do you guys plan out your full arc before you write the series/serial or do you wing it? I'm dreaming up the world now, but I'm not sure of all the details yet. I might want to just figure it out on the fly.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Annabelle said:


> I'm planning a new PNR serial that will be around 40-50k words each. Do you guys plan out your full arc before you write the series/serial or do you wing it? I'm dreaming up the world now, but I'm not sure of all the details yet. I might want to just figure it out on the fly.


I planned out each entry beforehand. I approached it as if I were writing an episode of a TV show which is how I wanted the serial to come across as. I'm not sure how successful I was in conveying that idea as some reviews have mentioned that it seems like a book that's been chopped up and released in pieces.


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm planning a longer word count for that reason. Reviewers terrify me so I do what I can to appease them. 40-50k is short novel long novella length. I'd also have very light cliffhangers. Not sure if I can plan it out before hand without taking out the joy of discovery. I do want to define my world though.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Annabelle said:


> I'm planning a longer word count for that reason. Reviewers terrify me so I do what I can to appease them. 40-50k is short novel long novella length. I'd also have very light cliffhangers. Not sure if I can plan it out before hand without taking out the joy of discovery. I do want to define my world though.


I planned it out yes, but I rarely follow my outline to the letter.  It's mostly to make sure that I get to point Z and to glance over if I happen to get stuck along the way. Having a reference helps me immensely during those times.


----------



## Redacted1111

Viola said:


> I'm just creating characters and watching to see what will happen. I know what will happen in part one, and I suspect that by next week, once I finish writing it, I'll know what will happen in part two as well. Other than that, I'm just going to keep writing whatever I come up with on the fly. For me, my characters take on lives of their own in my mind, and the challenge isn't figuring out what to write, it's figuring out how to write what they're thinking and doing in a compelling way.


This is usually how I work. I find novels a lot harder. I've had to do so much rewriting in the longer format. I'm hoping with a long novella/short novel format, it will flow better like with my shorter serial episodes.


----------



## Scottish Lass

J Ryan said:


> It's hard for me to get a high word count approaching it like a TV show.
> 
> I would write each part like an episode of a TV show but I bet I could only get about 5K words doing that. I'm just not a very descriptive person and I can't spend five paragraphs telling you about the door.
> 
> I struggle right now to get my parts to 15-17k words.


A one-hour TV drama is about 60 pages of script. By the time you add description that the camera would do for you to the dialogue, you'll easily have 60 pages of manuscript.

My novellas are like one-hour TV dramas. They are stories with a beginning, middle and end, with character development and some threads of the longer story, and the shortest is 13.5k words/64 pages (it was the one that _did_ originally start as a script  )

So yours at 15-17k sound about right for a TV episode.


----------



## Jason Halstead

The one I'm working on right now is coming in at a steady 22 - 25k for each part. Almost finished with 3 parts (waiting on editing to release part 1). And with these I have no idea what the hell I'm writing until it happens (or has happened). I started out with some great characters and let the story unfold. Each step has been as much fun for me to write as it would be for me to read.

Sex - I haven't done much with that yet. Lots of love interest and relationship tangles, including some hints at naughtiness. But the MC won't be getting her groove on until part 4. Hope that doesn't disappoint too many readers that are looking for something hot and heavy early on.


----------



## Sarah M

Does anyone know of any craft resources for writing serials? Like books, website, workshops, etc? A friend mentioned at an RWA event she attending there was a workshop on it.


----------



## bluwulf

J Ryan said:


> It's hard for me to get a high word count approaching it like a TV show.
> 
> I would write each part like an episode of a TV show but I bet I could only get about 5K words doing that. I'm just not a very descriptive person and I can't spend five paragraphs telling you about the door.
> 
> I struggle right now to get my parts to 15-17k words.


This is me right here. I am a very to the point person in real life and it was so hard to put enough description in my stories. Now as I review and self edit on each pass, I add more description where I think it needs it. My first story I thought ended at 12K now it's up to 14K just doing that and I still have 3 more passes to do. It helps me to read a passage from a favorite author and see how they are doing it and I can usually come up with more descriptive words.


----------



## Briteka

Viola said:


> Idk how I missed this earlier. Nope, no permafree. My latest launch was just too strong to warrant it. I'm definitely open to trying permafree if 99 cents doesn't work, and I may also increase the price to $2.99 as well. The storyline I have planned out is one that I feel the majority of my readers will enjoy, so I'm pretty comfortable with experimenting with different price points.


I wish you the best of luck! I would love to see percentages on Book 1 sales of your new series compared to book 2 sales of Claimed. Only if you get a chance of course. 

I WANT to get away from permafree only because I feel a crackdown is coming from Amazon, but at the same time, I don't have the mailing list you do and doubt I can be successful without permafree.


----------



## Redacted1111

vmblack said:


> Won't help. If you have a mailing list, recruit readers for ARCs to review it and soften the blow from those who want nothing less than 80k for free.
> 
> (I haven't done this. But you can.)


I sent out ARCs for my last novel. I plan to do that from now on. It totally pays off.


----------



## Redacted1111

I pulled way back on my pre release schedule and took things much slower so that I could take advantage of betas and ARCs. I haven't released anything in months though, which hurts my income. Hopefully, the schedule will end up being one novel every two months or one long novella every month. I wanted a 70k word novel a month,  but I can't do it with the pre release stuff I want to do. Readers need time and editing novel length work seems to take me a long time.


----------



## RachelMeyers

lala said:


> Thanks for answers on mailing lists!
> 
> I have ALOT of sex in the first entry to my serial. Like its 12,000 words with 4 sex scenes. It does read very much like erotica.The next entries are longer and only have one sex scene each. How much/little sex each entry has doesn't seem to bother people. *I am curious if a sweet romance serial would see success though. I don't think I've seen one if those yet.
> *


I'm writing a serial that's historical romance/adventure (I guess?). Not sure if it'll have sex in it yet but if it does there won't be a lot. Focus on the emotional connection and whole life-in-wartime thing. I have already made mental red flags to make it very clear in the description that there isn't a lot of sex in it.  When it's up (I'm still writing/editing at the moment) I'll share what comes of it.


----------



## carmela3

Wow! A very detailed and useful post.  
"-If the serial is not performing, you're still obligated to finish" I think it is the most "con" on writing a series. Even there is no sale on the last few series, there should be the last series to finish it whatever the outcome.


----------



## Lady Vine

carmela3 said:


> Wow! A very detailed and useful post.
> "-If the serial is not performing, you're still obligated to finish" I think it is the most "con" on writing a series. Even there is no sale on the last few series, there should be the last series to finish it whatever the outcome.


That's why it really does help to have as many as you can written before you hit publish. For me I had two out of three written for my last series, with the third plotted, so I knew I was going to finish.


----------



## Redacted1111

carmela3 said:


> Wow! A very detailed and useful post.
> "-If the serial is not performing, you're still obligated to finish" I think it is the most "con" on writing a series. Even there is no sale on the last few series, there should be the last series to finish it whatever the outcome.


I've dropped a serial before. It was in a less popular genre. Although it had the best review average of anything I've written, it was my worst seller. Go figure. If you write in a popular genre like romance, you don't have to worry too much if something sells. It is probably better to commit to only a three part serial if you aren't super passionate about the story or if you are very certain they will sell.


----------



## CristinaRayne

lala said:


> I saw that Briteka had posted results on the bknights thread and was wondering if anyone else has tried his Fivver promo. Even if I do a promo with them and it fails its not a great loss but before I signup, I wanted to see if there were any other serial romance authors who had tried the service.


I've got a promo scheduled for the 15th to coincide with Part Three of my serial's release. I thought, "What the heck, it's only $5."  I'll post my results here on Fri.


----------



## Briteka

Viola said:


> I had one for my free book on the 9th. It was a bump of about 600 free downloads, which was pleasant. I wouldn't pay full price for it unless I wrote in a different genre though. I Love Vampire Novels has a free book feature that costs about $10 more. They had an unfilled spot and put my first book in last month, and the results were around 1,100 extra downloads with a higher follow-through to my second book. To be fair, I did upload a new version of my manuscript that informed readers they could wait until Friday and buy the bundle, rather than paying for the story in parts. There may be a decent percentage of readers who decided to wait. Time will tell.


Yeah I don't think I would pay "full price" either, basically because I'm not sure I understand what's going on with that Fiverr campaign. I chose the Facebook promotion and mentioned that I was from Kboards. I don't know if he upgraded me, and I'm not exactly sure I understand what the upgrades are. I spent a little time looking through how he does the different campaigns, but it seemed to be the same. You're listed on the website list, and he blasts the website link on Twitter and Facebook. I just don't know, and I gave up trying to figure it out. I would spend $5 again though.


----------



## pwtucker

To be fair, Viola, it was a very nicely written email. Smart, clear, honest, and upfront about your thoughts and motivations. Glad to hear the response has been so positive!


----------



## Twizzlers

I would write 50k paranormal romance serials if I could afford the proofreading for that large of a book. 

Right now what I can afford is to put out shorter (15-20k) word serials. It sucks, but it's the sad reality of not having really any additional income.


----------



## Briteka

Viola, I really like your Omnibus cover. Did you use the same cover artist? I'm having a hard time finding someone to make those 3d covers.


----------



## Briteka

Wow just checked her out. I have the cover, just need the "box setting" or whatever. heh. Not bad for $10. Hopefully she opens up for new orders soon.


----------



## Redacted1111

Viola said:


> make sure you read other popular works, that way you have an idea of what readers want. Look at their reviews as well, that way you can see what readers _don't _want, and _then_ come up with character/story ideas.


Wiiiiiiiiiise words there.

I'm planning a scifi PNR that will be short novel length serials set in the same world coming out in the next few months. I'm working with werewolves right now. The thing is, that if you have, say, a werewolf, but also have psychics or witches or aliens even, you are more likely to chart in those other subcats because werewolves are so popular. What you said about keeping things simple is important. I didn't plan out my world well enough before I started writing so now I need to cut a lot of exposition and explanation to keep everything tight. Not that I regret writing all that because now my world is more defined. EEkk, it totally want to talk about my world. Must hold in until published!


----------



## Briteka

Scarlett G said:


> Wiiiiiiiiiise words there.
> 
> I'm planning a scifi PNR that will be short novel length serials set in the same world coming out in the next few months. I'm working with werewolves right now. The thing is, that if you have, say, a werewolf, but also have psychics or witches or aliens even, you are more likely to chart in those other subcats because werewolves are so popular. What you said about keeping things simple is important. I didn't plan out my world well enough before I started writing so now I need to cut a lot of exposition and explanation to keep everything tight. Not that I regret writing all that because now my world is more defined. EEkk, it totally want to talk about my world. Must hold in until published!


Your nine (!) category listing is something to behold.


----------



## Redacted1111

Briteka said:


> Your nine (!) category listing is something to behold.


Most of my keywords are dedicated to category placement. I'd actually like to try to write keywords without commas, but I don't have the guts to try it yet. There was a really, really good podcast about keywords and categories on the self-publishing round table. Here is a link to that: http://selfpublishingroundtable.com/sprt39/

I've actually heard that you can use keyword strings without commas, but I haven't heard it explained well enough for me to trust it. lol. I'd really like figure out how to do it and try it if I put my next serial in a main category in addition to romance.


----------



## Twizzlers

Do the Demon and Witches categories even support serials? 

I try to do market research but a lot of the top sellers are boxed sets which encompass many genres. 

It seems the top 20 in a lot of these categories are full length books though. I just don't have the capital to support writing and editing a full length book right now.


----------



## Briteka

J Ryan said:


> Do the Demon and Witches categories even support serials?
> 
> I try to do market research but a lot of the top sellers are boxed sets which encompass many genres.
> 
> It seems the top 20 in a lot of these categories are full length books though. I just don't have the capital to support writing and editing a full length book right now.


Nothing supports short story/novella serials. It's rare to see these types of books be a massive hit like Viola's created. The benefit of these serials are price and the speed they can be written.


----------



## L M May

WoW! Great post. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I have been writing my first serialized novel, and this is very timely advice for me. I especially like the part about reviews - I have always been a big believer in what you say here, but could never have put it so eloquently! 

For me, I decided to write the first 2 parts before publishing the first one, and after reading your post I am glad you did. I am 15 000 words away from finishing the 2nd part, and with a month between books, it will allow me time to write the third part while giving me a 'safety net' time wise in case life gets in the way.

Although I wish I could do serialized to your word count in a way that would pull people in. Mine are all around 40 000.

Thanks again for posting this. I am screenshotting for future reference.


----------



## Redacted1111

You make really great points VM. I'm leaving short form serials behind because of how hard a sell they are. 
I won't release anything shorter than 40k-50k words from now on. Also, with a longer form, you can get into Bookbub. I like the format of KF Breene's Darkness serial/series which seems to be in that 40-50k word length. 
I should probably be writing right now, instead I'm playing WOW with my husband.


----------



## Madison Johns

I just released book one of my serial shapeshifter book and so far it's rough going. The price is lower at $.99, but I did make it to 23,778 words which I thought was not all that short. I still got some early reviewers complaining about the serial part, an arc reviewer at that. They must have missed the "must like serials" part, lol. This is a whole new genre for me and I haven't fared well with any of my new releases even the ones in my fan base of cozy mystery. I never sell hot out the gate and this book is probably not going to be read by my core audience. I can't let myself get waylaid by that as I'm now committed to writing two more books in the series. I'm still trying to make them each novella length. I'm not all that sure that I'll do the first perm free. I'll make that decision later. I'm not sure if I'll write another one because like Scarlett said above, you can't be featured on BookBub and I've made a good income from BB. Even when I box them I won't be able to draw readers toward my other books since I won't have any more in a series. Another reason I can see right away is being inspired to work on the next book. For me it's just easier to write 50,000 word books. The one thing I have noticed is that I'm getting some sales outside the US and finally might have found something that sells better in other countries finally. I do enjoy the genre and the spin offs will be longer.


----------



## vrcumming

vmblack said:


> It's easy for people to mistake prolific writing with sloppy writing and go, "Well, of course she's doing well, writing those easy, lazy vampire romances." (If you are experienced with literary analysis, you an take a peek at what I'm doing with my freebie, and you'll see there's nothing easy or lazy about it.) Speed and quality are entirely unrelated across writers. Most of my own best work is written quickly, simply because I know where I'm going, what I'm doing, and I'm juggling all the balls with no effort. Laborious writing for me is usually poor writing because I'm struggling with getting the major plot points across. Don't think because I or anyone else writes quickly that we don't care about quality. I absolutely do.


I would really like for someone to tell me, to my face, that writing "lazy vampire romances" is easy, particularly in erotica. I write paranormal romances (novels between 70-80K words and novellas between 30-40K words) under another pen name and I can tell you, writing a dark, vampire, erotic serial is a lot harder. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it, because I do. It's a lot of fun, but it's also a lot of work.

On a side note, I've really enjoyed this thread. (I've been following it under my other pen name. This is my first post under V.R. Cumming.) Thank you to Viola for starting it, and to V.M. Black, et al., for taking the time to provide insight. This is one of the more useful threads in WC for all romance and erotica writers, not just those writing serials.


----------



## CristinaRayne

lala said:


> I saw that Briteka had posted results on the bknights thread and was wondering if anyone else has tried his Fivver promo. Even if I do a promo with them and it fails its not a great loss but before I signup, I wanted to see if there were any other serial romance authors who had tried the service.


My bknights promo ran on Thurs, and as far as I can tell, I got an additional 400 downloads out of it. I had hoped the ad would push me into the top 100 overall in the Kindle store, but no dice even though I got a little over 1200 downloads for the day. I was already in the top 10 for 2 categories, and my ranking didn't move at all. My sales for Parts 2 & 3 of my serial haven't really seen a bump, so I can't be sure if any of the extra sales on Part 1 led to any buy-throughs. Still, 400 extra downloads is nothing to sneeze at, so if you're looking for an extra bump in rankings in a few subcategories, for $5, I'd say it's worth it.


----------



## Maria Romana

Viola said:


> What's difficult for me is describing settings. It can take me as long as an hour to write a paragraph describing a setting or even what someone is wearing. What I did to help my writing flow better, is cut out a lot of the descriptions and focused on my characters reacting to what they see, rather than describing it. For example, when I was writing my most recent manuscript, I wanted to describe what my female protagonist looked like when she entered the scene. I was able to get two paragraphs out of it like so, without having to actually give a solid description of her.
> 
> While Asch spoke, Caim's eyes roamed over his mate's body. Much like maps, clothing was another human convention that he had never favored, though he found that this was more of a situational dislike. He did not like clothing when he was forced to wear it and he still disliked his mate wearing clothing to bed, as he needed to feel her smooth flesh against his own.
> 
> But during the night, as she moved about the den, Caim enjoyed seeing her clothed. Not just because it hid her body from the eyes of other males, but also because of the way the clothing played against his favorite curves. Now, in particular, her tight shirt hugged the swell of her breasts. His eyes were drawn to her nipples, which had been drawn to stiff peaks by the chilled air. Caim was so wrapped up in thoughts of his mate's body, that he almost missed the shift in the conversation.


I was just reading back through the thread and saw this. Yeah, this is exactly how I like to both read and write descriptions -- where it's less of a straight narrative description and more of a character's reaction to what he's seeing. That way, you're not just getting an image put in your head by the author, but rather, "feeling" the character's perception of his surroundings. So it's both description and character-building in one, and can even become plot/motivation for something that happens later. Much less dull to read or write.


----------



## Maria Romana

J Ryan said:


> I sold six in a week before I went permafree but since going permafree I've sold 1200 in four days and 14 have bought number 2 since I went permafree.
> 
> I know this isn't a lot, but it's better than I've ever done with any series so I think things are looking up!


This is how it starts! Congrats. Keep the momentum going!


----------



## Madison Johns

I'd also like to say since I've written cozy mystery for a few years that three books seems to point where you start getting noticed. Thanks Viola that's encouraging.


----------



## SimoneLea

Hey Everyone

I am new to posting here, but have been lurking for a while.  Thank you so much for the great thread Viola! I am learning so much from you and everyone here, there is so much great information!

I know this is a little of the topic, but i would love some feedback from you guys relating to serials.

If you wrote a serial along the lines of Viola in terms of Genre- romance and sexy stuff, and then you wanted to write another serial but just romance. Would it be OK to use the same pen name, and have some character cross over, or would you pi*s off readers because they would be expecting the sexy stuff as well? 

Thank you in advance


----------



## CristinaRayne

vmblack said:


> Great going!
> 
> Yeah, 1200 doesn't get me into the top 100. I have to break 2000 for that. It's kind of kooky--but encouraging, really. I mean, how can it not be encouraging? It means there's that much room for growth!


Looking at it that way, that is really encouraging.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Has anyone come up with a "serial" beat-sheet in the style of: http://jamigold.com/2012/11/write-romance-get-your-beat-sheet-here/
Would love something like that. 
Also, re: demon's and shifters. Does all Paranormal Romance have to be set in the modern day? Are there any successful more "high fantasy" paranormal romances out there? Is it a much harder nut to crack?


----------



## Andie

Sophia Feddersen said:


> Has anyone come up with a "serial" beat-sheet in the style of: http://jamigold.com/2012/11/write-romance-get-your-beat-sheet-here/
> Would love something like that.
> Also, re: demon's and shifters. Does all Paranormal Romance have to be set in the modern day? Are there any successful more "high fantasy" paranormal romances out there? Is it a much harder nut to crack?


I haven't seen anything like what Jami does with beat sheets for a serial, but that would be interesting. She's very approachable and would probably be a good person to ask about that type of thing.

I'm not totally sure what you're looking for with paranormal epic fantasy, but Boone Brux has a series that seemed to combine elements of both kinds of stories. The first book is Shield of Fire. Good book. Not a serial, if that's what you are looking for.

And now I'm back to lurking!


----------



## Justawriter

vmblack said:


> Do you mean a sweet romance, no sex? The thing is, those audiences are mostly separate. There absolutely IS an audience for sweet romance, but those who want sweet pretty much never read sexy, and those who want sexy don't often read sweet. I'd personally choose another pen name.


I'd choose a different pen name too. I write sweet and often read sexy, so it's more common than you might think. But, I think the main reason to have a different name would be reader expectation....so you don't disappoint a reader who picks up your book expecting sexy and isn't happy to find that it's sweet instead.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

> Fantasy romance


Okay so I guess that's what I'm writing then. Cool.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

PamelaKelley said:


> I'd choose a different pen name too. I write sweet and often read sexy, so it's more common than you might think. But, I think the main reason to have a different name would be reader expectation....so you don't disappoint a reader who picks up your book expecting sexy and isn't happy to find that it's sweet instead.


I think readers read up & down the steam scale. Some women do deliberately seek out "sweet" romance because they don't like sex in books, but lots of women who enjoy steamy books will read things without sex, too, for the story and the characters. I love Eva Ibbotson, for example--one of my very favorite romance writers ever--and Georgette Heyer. No sex, but swoon-worthy heroes who push my buttons just fine. I don't read erotic romance, but love books with steam. Similarly, I have readers whose "other" reading is much more erotic romance, and those for whom my books are a daring leap into Steamyville. (And those who skip or skim the steamy parts and wish I'd write PG versions.)

I'd probably use the same name and just brand the series differently, if it were me--if it weren't TOO different. If you wrote erotic romance and had the nekkid chests to signal what it was, for example, you'd give your less-steamy series more of a sweet romance cover, and make sure the blurb set the right tone.

I'd be more concerned about the disappointment running the other way--about making sure the sweet romance folks could recognize that my steamy stuff WAS steamy and didn't read by mistake. And you have to give them a LOT of clues. Ladies who don't like sex in books aren't always as careful as they might be about the books they buy.


----------



## LBrent

As a writer, I write what I feel is just steamy (I rarely use smutty body part words), but in my heart I suppose it really is smut. I'm trying my imagination on writing sweet as an experiment now.

As a reader, I enjoy every level from the mildest sweet to the smuttiest smut as long as the writer can get me invested in the characters and story.

Sex scenes included just to make a quota are boring to me.


----------



## RinG

Another reader who reads both sweet and steamy, and everything in between.

I wouldn't worry about writing under a different name, but I would make sure both blurbs were really clear about what the books were like.


----------



## SimoneLea

Hey Everyone, 

Thank you for your replies! (Viola, V.M. Black, Pamela Kelly, Rosalind James, L Brent, Rinelle Grey)

I think you have just confirmed what i was thinking in that readers expectations might be a problem.   One is a lot more sexy than the other, so I will put them under 2 different names and see how they go.


----------



## Kay Marie

This is a GREAT thread. I learned so much information from it that I will utilize next month when I release my debut three part erotic romance serial. I was going to commit to longer than three parts. However, from this thread I learned that committing to less and giving the readers more if the serial sells well is best. Glad, I read this thread before my release.


----------



## Madison Johns

I've dabbled with this and I usually write cozy mystery and some sweet romances. I used my same pen name because I worked hard for it, including three USA Today Bestseller appearances, so hell yes I'm using it. I clearly state that my serial has adult content and not for anyone under the age of 18. I had a few of my mystery readers try out my paranormal books because they'll read anything I write. Not sure how they'll handle book two since it has three erotic scenes, but I'm interested to find out.


----------



## Tasha Black

What a great thread! I am working on a PR serial now, and this has been a big help!


----------



## Elysabeth42

Viola said:


> Thanks, guys! I spent a few days brainstorming the basics, and I'm glad it's helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is my first month.
> 2/18 was when it went live, to the tune of 7 sales
> 2/19-2/26 was 15-20 sales a day
> 2/27 Book 1 was made free.
> 2/28 Book 2 was released @ $2.99
> 3/10 Book 2 was reduced to 99 cents
> 3/11 There was a half-day blip where Book 1 lost permafree
> 3/16 Book 3 was released at 99 cents w/first mailing list blast
> 
> There's no advertising or cross-promoting, all of that just happened. However, just because you're not selling a dozen copies a day with your first book doesn't mean that you won't make money. Things can still take off once you permafree, and your sales will get a bump with every new release. This is why I recommend a price model with $2.99, unless your selling a lot of books. As you can see, the difference in sales between my book being $2.99 and 99 cents is really not enough to warrant the change, unless you're confident that the serial is going to be big.
> 
> I don't have any experience with whether a collection or a novel sells better, so I won't do you the disservice of guessing. Someone else may be able to chime in with an answer though.
> 
> I think you make some fair points. I can say that one of the reasons I love writing short stories is that I never feel the need to write unnecessary scenes. I think as a society, we're being conditioned towards smaller things, so long as there is good perceived value. If you can ensure each entry has valuable content (rather than just filler), you'll likely sell well.


Thank you for posting this information - it is very helpful and now I have a direction to consider a serial series. E


----------



## Madison Johns

Here's my question. How do you write you ending to each part without it seeming abrupt or can't you. I've been struggling with this. I ended book one after an erotic scene I thought I was okay. I guess not. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Madison Johns

I've gotten some opinions on this and I just think some people are gonna grip. I'll just have to try and make it now abrupt, but the truth is that I thought the main conflict was who she was gonna mate with first and that was resolved, lol.


----------



## Madison Johns

I'm going to try and do perma free after the second book is released. Although it's over 20,000 words it seems like $2.99 might be too much, but I have planned to release book 2 for a few days at $.99 then up. This has worked with my other books, but still not sure. There are so many authors who do better at $2.99 for their serials, but they probably have a better fan base than I do.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

What a bummer about the new series, but I DO think that it will hit hard when book three comes out. It really seems like a light switch almost, especially for serial s where people decide to buy in once they realize you're in it for the long haul. 
And as for $20,000, that is AH-MAZING! So awesome, whoohoo! Congrats. It couldn't happen to a better person. From where I'm sitting, you're doing everything right and I'm thrilled to see it working for you.


----------



## Charmaine

I don't have a serial out, but I have been noticing the serial-induced rage in reviews recently.
It bothers me, because it's a bullying tactic and I can't for the life of me understand
why can't they NOT buy the book.  
The amount some people seem to think their opinions should matter to others is astounding.
And they seem to think their opinion is law  

Whatevs you can always laugh your way to the bank


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Viola Rivard said:


> New launch has been kinda blah. General feedback from fans is that they want to wait until two or three entries are out before they buy in, which makes sense because that's how my first serial was. I'm going to leave it at 99 cents until Part Three is out, and if it's still not where I want it to be, I'll make it free. It's already earned out its investment and then some, so I'm comfortable with making it a loss leader if need be.
> 
> May was my first $20,000 month, thanks in part to bundling. I can't say it'll work for everyone, but in my case, as my stories were only 99 cents, I've seen an increase in earnings by $100-$200 a day.
> 
> Amazon is up for me, currently accounting for around 85% of sales. Apple came in second, but is falling off hard. I made about a quarter of what I did last month, but it may pick up again once my new serial picks up. Barnes is consistently scaling at an increase of $200/month, and Google Play is increasing rapidly, but still last. I don't count Kobo because it's still less than 1% of earnings.
> 
> I changed my branding on the books to declare them as serials. I think with the wave of serials, at least in my genre, readers are becoming more tolerant of them, and the readers that hate them are becoming more incensed by them. I'd definitely recommend anyone on the fence about how to label follows suit.


I agree, labeling them clearly as serials is a good idea. It appears to me (viewing from the outside, since I don't write serials) that readers mainly get upset when they didn't realize it was a serial.

Congrats on the great month. And my first book of my second series sold consistently half as much as the books in my first series until I released Book 2. Then they both took off. I'm sure with a serial it's Part 3 or whatever. Just human nature. It still makes you worry, of course, but I'd be willing to bet money that by the time Part 3 is out, readers will be happily on board with you once again.


----------



## Guest

Rosalind James said:


> I agree, labeling them clearly as serials is a good idea. It appears to me (viewing from the outside, since I don't write serials) that readers mainly get upset when they didn't realize it was a serial.


Seems it depends on how short each piece of content is. People seem to be fairly fine with approximately 25,000 words or more.


----------



## Tasha Black

My first serial is shaping up to be about 12k-15k words per episode. I am concerned about the negativity that seems to come at that length. I was thinking about trying this for pricing:

#1 - permafree
#2 - $.99
#3&4 together for $2.99
#5&6 together for $2.99

Maybe a bundle later for $4.99

I know the obvious question would be, "Why not just have 4 volumes?" But it is really set up as six episodes. I was thinking that the free and $.99 ones wouldn't get too many complaints against the length, and maybe pairing up the later ones would help as well. 

That #2 is bothering me. Am I better off doing #1&2 free?

Thoughts?


----------



## 13893

My retelling of Jane Eyre is done in five episodes, the shortest about 23K words and the longest 40K-plus words. I get the hate reviews too, despite each part being novella length - and the last one technically novel length. 

There is a cohort of readers who simply hate, hate, hate the idea of serialized story-telling. I'm not going to let their unhappiness with the format ruin it for everyone who enjoys it.


----------



## Maria Romana

Charmaine said:


> I don't have a serial out, but I have been noticing the serial-induced rage in reviews recently.
> It bothers me, because it's a bullying tactic and I can't for the life of me understand
> why can't they NOT buy the book.
> The amount some people seem to think their opinions should matter to others is astounding.
> And they seem to think their opinion is law
> 
> Whatevs you can always laugh your way to the bank


^^^This, this, and this!

You have hit the nail on the head. It feels as though there is a movement afoot to crush this type of writing, engineered by those who don't seem to like it. Why on earth should they care what other people want to read


----------



## Maria Romana

J Ryan said:


> The free one will garner you some negative reviews because people that aren't your audience will read it and have something to say (hell one girl flat out lied about my book and said it was filled with racist content).


This is just flat-out ridiculous. Did you report it to Amazon? Such a review would be against their TOS, and they should remove it, if you ask the right person.


----------



## Tasha Black

So I keep #1 free.
#2 at $.99

what about the last four?

#3&4 bundled together for $2.99
#5&6 bundled together for $2.99 as well?

Or is it better to keep them individually at a lower price?


----------



## Maria Romana

vmblack said:


> I have a review that basically just rants about what a horrible person I am and calls me names. It says nothing about the content of the story at all. Amazon didn't take that one down.
> 
> I wonder sometimes what it would take! LOL.


Seriously. That's one thing about the Zon I just don't get. Stuff like that is clearly in violation of their TOS. Why do they let it stand? I don't see how a site peppered with vitriolic non-content-oriented reviews serves their customers or their reputation.

And that said, I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, so I'll put a sock in it!


----------



## zzzzzzz

Has anyone had any great success with serials outside of the romance/erotica sub-genres? Beyond the SPP guys, that is.


----------



## Chris1962

It looks like Tor believes serials will work for Science Fiction as well http://fantasy-faction.com/2014/tor-look-to-bring-back-short-stories-with-the-imprint#utm_source=feed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=feed


----------



## Redacted1111

I've been working on a New Adult contemporary series and, while I love the genre, I find contemporary is not natural to me to write, at all. Speculative fiction is far more natural. It's almost effortless. I've steeped myself in romance so that it has now become easier to write. 

I have a series I'm working on that I planned to include werewolves in. Now, I'm not so sure. I know the keywords "werewolf" and "alpha" pretty much guarantee to sell books, I just don't know if I want to get on the bandwagon. It's hard to write something you do love but that is purposefully following a trend. I'm not sure. I might keep the werewolf aspect for the first part. Just cuz I know it sells books. There are a lot of other aspects of the series that will fit other paranormal genres. 

Eventually, I plan to move more into a broader context of speculative romance because I'm comfortable in scifi and straight fantasy. I'm not sure if I'll attempt more contemporary except to finish out this series I'm working on. I am a nerd girl. I love speculative fiction. I might even move out of romance all together in the future and just write in fantasy/scifi.  I find I like the paranormal romance novels that actually feel more like they have urban fantasy plots. You know, more than sex is happening....  You have to write what works for you.


----------



## Andie

Nothing is really an "easy" sell, in my opinion, which is why you have to enjoy what you're writing. Paranormal romance and urban fantasy are my main genres (under another pen name), and I can definitely confirm they aren't easy to sell, but they are sooo fun to write (for me, anyway).


----------



## Jason Halstead

Collaborating with my wife on a series I've been mentioning in this thread and other places that is a PNR. And by collaborating I mean using her name, picture, and talking to her about it when I have questions about girly things. She's excited and so am I, the first three parts are already out (approx 25k each) and part 4 is being edited / cover arted. Part 5 is a day or so away from being finished rough draft, and then I'll start part 6 (which I think is the end of it). Then I'll go back to writing one of my novels to make sure people don't forget about me (sales on my books have started to drop) before returning for another PNR serial that's a spinoff.

My first 3 parts are probably PG13 - R. No sex, but some innuendo and nudity. That's not considering the part about people and critters getting chewed up. Part 4 takes it to a new level with some quality softcore action. And by softcore I mean some people may consider it more than soft. It's all relative (and no, they aren't relatives). A touch more of that in part 5 and I have no idea what part 6 will bring.

I'm planning 25kish for all 6 parts though, sex or no sex. First book is perma-free and the remainders are $.99. So far for books 2 and (just released) 3, I'm moving 25 - 50 a day of each. Mailing list is growing too, over 20 people in the time that's been out (a little over a month). If that persists I'll probably price the second serial the same as the first. If it picks up to some substantial numbers I might boost the price to $2.99. I, personally, have never had any reason to go with $1.99 as a price. I tried it for a few months and wasn't impressed, so I moved on and haven't looked back.

The one other thing worth mentioning - and that shocks me - is that the UK sales are almost twice what the US sales are. Like I said, that blows me away! In almost 5 years of doing this now I've never once had a day, let alone a week or more, where I sold more books in the UK than in the US.  I've always done fairly well over there, but this is something completely new to me. Cool too, because I hope it means the US will take notice and soon follow suit.


----------



## Redacted1111

I have a billion speculative fiction romance ideas. They fall from the sky like rain. lol. But I'm stuck revising this full length contemporary. It's killing me. It's already taken me more than twice as long as the actual writing, and I'm not even done. Some days I don't even work because I'm avoiding it like the plague. In the mean time, I'm already half way through the rough draft of the first installment of the spec fic long novella series I have planned. It hurts. so. bad. But I'm not good at working at more than one project at a time. I think that's what slipped me up in the first place. I started writing the next book before the last one was finished. Some people can do that, but if I do it the current project always seems like the most horrible thing in the world and I don't want to deal with it ever again. I'm too addicted to new fresh ideas and change to work on more than one project at a time.


----------



## Mahalo

This was a review that was in response to a 20,000 word novella that I have out - for free. Now, yes, I get the pain in reading cliffhangers yet at the same time, I made sure that there was plenty of spice to the first installment.

*"Ugh&#8230;..maybe if we start posting with one star the authors would get the hint that there are so many wonderful ebooks for free and low priced complete books that I, personally, do not feel drawn to cliffhangers. Sorry for the 1 star and that I will never read your book. Is Amazon going to delete my post? I hope not since I have spent a fortune on Amazon since 1995! LOL"*

So, is there a movement out there against serials and short stories? I don't know. This review seems to suggest that people want to vote with their reviews though she didn't mention story length. Again, this reader clearly falls into the category of "reads only free & cheap books" as she seems to be well-versed in what is being offered for free. There are obviously different classes of readers that different pricing strategies appeal to which has been long discussed on these boards.


----------



## Andie

Viola Rivard said:


> I have another contemporary PNR serial planned after this one, and then I'm doing a historical PNR. I wanna make sure I have a large backlist to sustain me during what will probably be a few weeks of research before I'm ready.


LOVE historical PNR, and it's really an underserved genre (probably partially because juggling the worldbuilding details for both, and making them work together can be tricky). Kristen Callihan's series has brought the genre onto my radar, and I'd love to see more variety there.


----------



## SawyerPentecost

I feel like these may need to be branded almost like soap operas...stories without end on their own. Nobody complains about those having long drawn out storylines.


----------



## Andie

Ana Munroe said:


> This was a review that was in response to a 20,000 word novella that I have out - for free. Now, yes, I get the pain in reading cliffhangers yet at the same time, I made sure that there was plenty of spice to the first installment.
> 
> *"Ugh.....maybe if we start posting with one star the authors would get the hint that there are so many wonderful ebooks for free and low priced complete books that I, personally, do not feel drawn to cliffhangers. Sorry for the 1 star and that I will never read your book. Is Amazon going to delete my post? I hope not since I have spent a fortune on Amazon since 1995! LOL"*
> 
> So, is there a movement out there against serials and short stories? I don't know. This review seems to suggest that people want to vote with their reviews though she didn't mention story length. Again, this reader clearly falls into the category of "reads only free & cheap books" as she seems to be well-versed in what is being offered for free. There are obviously different classes of readers that different pricing strategies appeal to which has been long discussed on these boards.


It's really weird to me when people rate down for format, and have no complaints about the actual story. (And in this case, don't even mention the story.)


----------



## zzzzzzz

vmblack said:


> Some one is doing it in thrillers. For epic fantasy, I'd do 50k installments. For urban, 25k to 30k would work. Thrillers could go as short as 10-20k.


Hm. What about horror or science fiction?


----------



## Redacted1111

vmblack said:


> When I started writing, paranormal romances were mostly "woo-woo" romances. I HATED them because the worldbuilding was terrible. The maturity of the market in that regards is just stunning compared to what it once was. I think the first really amazing true SF romance will be genre-changing. The keywords might be a bit of an issue now, but slap it in PNR and fantasy romance anyway, and then bathe in the money when it comes in. LOL. IF you love it and you really understand the SF and romance genres, and you're a good writer...yeah, I think it will be AMAZING in about 5 years, and amazing now for the pioneer who really "gets" it.
> 
> (Secret: I'm going that direction with this series. It's fantasy without magic--it's all tech. So as the series continues, it's getting more and more SF.)


Yes! I'm working with metaphysical tech magic too. Woohoo! Love it!


----------



## von19

I'm doing a 25k Superhero Serial. Almost done with the first one. I'll post a 5k free teaser before I release.

Sent from The International Space Station using Tapatalk


----------



## pagegirl

Yeah, I really don't understand why a reader would even be tempted to leave a poor review based on length as long as it's stated the book is not a full length novel. If you don't want a shorter work, then buy full novels. And although cliffhangers can be annoying to some readers, I don't get a super negative review based off that either. Sure, leave a review and say you weren't crazy about that aspect and why but these scathing reviews 1 and 2 stars just because it's a serialized story seems a bit silly. I just published the first in a serial and though the length is longer than some--over 28,000 words-- I know poor reviews will likely come, which stinks but at least after reading these threads I'll know I'm not the only one.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Andie said:


> Nothing is really an "easy" sell, in my opinion, which is why you have to enjoy what you're writing. Paranormal romance and urban fantasy are my main genres (under another pen name), and I can definitely confirm they aren't easy to sell, but they are sooo fun to write (for me, anyway).


I can confirm this as well. I write Urban and Epic Fantasy under a pen name and though I've received mostly positive reviews from readers, they haven't really taken off like my Fantasy Romance serial no matter how much I marketed them. I'm hoping that after I have a couple of completed series out and I can permafree that things will pick up in that area since I really enjoy writing Epic Fantasy.



vmblack said:


> I think the first really amazing true SF romance will be genre-changing. The keywords might be a bit of an issue now, but slap it in PNR and fantasy romance anyway, and then bathe in the money when it comes in. LOL. IF you love it and you really understand the SF and romance genres, and you're a good writer...yeah, I think it will be AMAZING in about 5 years, and amazing now for the pioneer who really "gets" it.


One of my novels is a Science Fantasy with a romantic subplot that is a bit more Scifi than Fantasy(deals with the multiverse/quantum theory, etc). I've found that the scifi tends to confuse readers. They like the fantasy, they like the romance, but the scifi elements leave them with question marks even though they really don't have anything bad to say about it. I have it in the Urban Fantasy, Scifi and Paranormal categories, but I'm starting to think that having it in the UF and PN categories is not attracting its main audience.


----------



## Redacted1111

I have to wonder what the hate reviewers are expecting to accomplish since it mostly happens on free books. Frankly, I'm considering not putting any more books permafree for that very reason. It's like you get dumped on for giving people something for free. It's pretty counter intuitive on the part of the haters. Most of us know permafree leads to bad reviews. They're going to hate their way out of free books.


----------



## CJArcher

Andie said:


> LOVE historical PNR, and it's really an underserved genre (probably partially because juggling the worldbuilding details for both, and making them work together can be tricky). Kristen Callihan's series has brought the genre onto my radar, and I'd love to see more variety there.


I write historical PNR trilogies of 60-70k each book. They sell OK, but aren't stellar. The first book in 2 of the trilogies are permafree. At the moment I sell better at Apple than Amazon but that's not always the case. I wouldn't get into H-PNR expecting to see $$. Contemporary everything (PNR, romance, mystery) is a more lucrative option IMO which is why my pen names dabble there.


----------



## Redacted1111

Viola Rivard said:


> The perk of having a permafree loss leader is that unless you fall below 3 stars, your books will sell well


I've actually seen this to be true.


----------



## Mahalo

Viola Rivard said:


> The perk of having a permafree loss leader is that unless you fall below 3 stars, your books will sell well--provided you have a good cover/premise/blurb/first paragraph/understanding of your genre coupled with solid writing skills. Most people don't bother reading reviews of a free book, because it's an impulse buy. Even those that do read bad reviews are likely to give it a shot, as long as it doesn't have something they're morally against. You'll get frustrating reviews like Ana's (which is a particularly bad one, Ana is super nice, if you're out there, meanie), where you just stare at your screen, shake your head, and wonder how people can be p*ssed about a _free _book, but it gets better over time. My first 1*star made me wanna crawl in a hole and disappear, now (and I say this with the utmost awareness that I will probably regret it) they don't bother me at all. If anything, they're good conversation pieces with my friends while we're out shopping, dining at fine restaurants, and swimming in my backyard money pool (relax, it's above-ground, I'm not _that _extravagant). But I digress. If you can weather the initial rage, it gets easier. Plus, if you're doing a werewolf serial, they're so desensitized to serials now so it's a lot easier to get away with than it was a few months ago. I'm actually starting to get readers that defend my serialization. Never thought I'd see the day...


Thanks Viola - you are an absolute sweetheart, not only for your kindness in helping other writers, but also for your understanding of everyone's own personal struggle to grow and expand their craft.

As for the review, I don't mind reviews that are actually constructive and give me something to work off of. But when a review is simply to wage war on ALL AUTHORS it is a little frustrating because I'm not quite certain what they are trying to accomplish. It is clearly stated what the length of my free book is. And, I am sorry for the frustration in offering up a cliffhanger but not every free book is going to give the entire story. Writing is a business as much as it is a craft. Loss leaders serve to entice the reader to want to find out what happens next.


----------



## SabrinaLacey

Ana - you can write Amazon and ask them to remove it on the grounds that they didn't read the book, and they said that.

Let's look at success to learn the answer to this serialized question:

H.M. Ward (Hi Holly!) has a serial that's on installment 14 or something, and it's hitting the NYT Best Seller's lists again and again - with a ton of b*tching one-stars, but still going strong despite them!

And Hugh Howey's Wool is a serial - also NYTB list (Hi Hugh! I just read Wool 1 and dayum. You got me on that ending!)

I've got a serial going now. Some people b*tch, but very few, and others are logging onto my FB page and even emailing, asking, "When's the next book" Part 4 comes out next week, and I'm going to keep it going, with each a little longer than the last. I figure I owe them those extra chapters if they've loved it enough to come back for more... literally. 

As long as you price it right, and give them a fun story, the people who want more will follow it like the TV show episodes it really is (by way of their imaginations).


----------



## T.M. Blades

Thanks for writing this up. I'm very interested in doing a serial, though it's not a romance your information is still quite useful for other genres I think. I'm not sure how well serials sell outside of romance, but I like the idea that I have going, so I'm going to do it anyway.



> For those who think that serials are working just for romance....uh, HUGH HOWEY, people. It was the serial format that launched him to success!


Oddly enough, I'm not big on Wool, though Dystopian end of the world stuff is not my preferred genre. My favorite Howey book is "Half Way Home". If that was a serial I would read it forever. <3


----------



## Andie

Thanks for all the great advice and information in this thread, all!


----------



## Charmaine

vmblack said:


> I think if Penny Dreadful's successful, we'll see an explosion.
> 
> The safest choice for PNR historical is 19th century UK. The second safest is 17th through 1920s UK or the US. Possibly Australia or New Zealand. Also, pirates of this time period, LOL.


I'm glad I'm not the only one carefully watching the success of Penny Dreadful for Historical Fiction success implications. 
Also, the time periods you listed are the only ones I read or have an interest in writing. 
I won't quote all your posts Vmblack, but I agree with everything you've stated.
Ecspecially the viability of more-reader-accessible Thriller, Mystery, and SF Romance.
And I have to share your love for Harper's Island! It was my favorite show that year! And it would be an amazing starting off point to base the plotting and pacing of a serial


----------



## Maria Romana

Ana Munroe said:


> As for the review, I don't mind reviews that are actually constructive and give me something to work off of. But when a review is simply to wage war on ALL AUTHORS it is a little frustrating because I'm not quite certain what they are trying to accomplish. It is clearly stated what the length of my free book is. And, I am sorry for the frustration in offering up a cliffhanger but not every free book is going to give the entire story. Writing is a business as much as it is a craft. Loss leaders serve to entice the reader to want to find out what happens next.


This is exactly what I feel like is happening--there seems to be a concerted effort of some type to go around one-starring any perma-free serial starter book. As if our offering of free books that are not single, stand-alone novels is somehow causing harm to the universe. Do these same people run around Costco screaming at the people who are offering free food samples, "Well, it was delicious, but it wasn't a complete meal, and now I shall have to buy some food, if I want to eat more! How dare you!" Sigh.


----------



## Mahalo

Maria Romana said:


> This is exactly what I feel like is happening--there seems to be a concerted effort of some type to go around one-starring any perma-free serial starter book. As if our offering of free books that are not single, stand-alone novels is somehow causing harm to the universe. Do these same people run around Costco screaming at the people who are offering free food samples, "Well, it was delicious, but it wasn't a complete meal, and now I shall have to buy some food, if I want to eat more! How dare you!" Sigh.


This. Exactly this.


----------



## Guest

vmblack said:


> 9. It's unrealistic to do the kind of launch prep and stuff that you might do for a novel--cover reveals, blog tours, etc. That would kill me.


Not for all of them, but a definite possibility for the FIRST book in a series as part of a launching plan.


----------



## Madison Johns

My Clan of the Werebear serial isn't doing good at all, but I just released book two and it hit the fantasy list for New Adult & College, so things are looking up. I'll be the first writer to admit I have no clue how to write these things without a cliffhanger. So they have cliffhangers people and my arc readers have been very forgiving. Trying to get Amazon to make first book free with no luck. I'm going to send them another message tonight. I can't wait to see how free does for my second book and I'm about to write my third and final book of the series.


----------



## Guest

vmblack said:


> I personally, with my experience, would do the last, instead. You lose a HUGE number of sales between the first and second if you're doing permafree without the second already out, and a push on the first is of pretty limited value when you're not proven yet.


I've pushed the first in my series, and I'm pleased with the results compared to the results some others have had with their first. Second will be out soon and with that I predict increased sales. I'm with Select, so no permafree. (I'm fine with that.) First book is now 99 cents, and I think that's a good alternative to permafree. $2.99 for all others in the series.


----------



## RinG

vmblack said:


> Canada and Australia continue to be horrible.


I suspect that's because most Australians still buy through huge US store. The Australian prices are a ripoff. Everything above a 99c book costs $1 more.


----------



## Madison Johns

I'm finding that I'm selling way more books in the UK than ever before. Your books look really good VM. When I sold like 17 books the first day of the month in the UK overall I was like wow.


----------



## Guest

vmblack said:


> Unfortunately, results don't scale. So if you do 10x better with book 1 due to promos, you don't do 10x better on book 2. You just have those 10 people who might buy book 2, and the mere fact that book 2-* isn't out right NOW means you'll lose some of them. It's additive, only.
> 
> If you have a complete series with reviews and some buzz, the same effort might get you 100 sales of book 2, 85 of 3, 80 of 4, 79 of 5, and 78 of 6.


When *my* book 2 is out, I'll see what *my* numbers are. Until then, I'm not going to agree OR disagree with you.


----------



## Guest

HM Ward said in this thread (from memory) that boxed sets are vampires. Meaning they eat up your sales of the original stories. Does anyone have any theories whether boxed sets create sales? Meaning, that they have generated readers from having boxed sets that wouldn't' have otherwise bought the series. Just curious.


----------



## Guest

ShaneJeffery said:


> HM Ward said in this thread (from memory) that boxed sets are vampires. Meaning they eat up your sales of the original stories. Does anyone have any theories whether boxed sets create sales? Meaning, that they have generated readers from having boxed sets that wouldn't' have otherwise bought the series. Just curious.


Good question. I greatly respect H.M Ward, but I'd like to hear from others, Viola especially since she has a box set out.


----------



## Guest

Thanks for your reply, VM.

I understand the peripherals of profit vs boxing .99 cent stories, vs boxing 2.99 serial installments. What I really want to know however isn't about profit base, but whether you actually GAIN NEW READERS by having a boxed set, regardless of price points. Whether there is any data from authors that reflect that they are increasing their readership using boxed sets rather than just using boxed sets to capitalize on the royalty rate of already existing readers.


----------



## Guest

I understand the sentiment. What I'm looking for is cold hard facts though. I mean, is that true? If it is, then we might as well adopt the pricing:

1ermafree
2 - (3 - 5) .99
6 - 2.99

Boxed set - 3.99

Instead of going at 2.99

I wouldn't be so crazy questioning about this, but I have seen 5 - 10,000 words stories selling well at a 2.99 price point. They're the 2 opposites and I guess what's working for you, works, and you're (me) a loser no matter what you do... But still I do wonder if boxed sets are engaging new readers and if 2.99 serial installments are wise. So hard to figure out. Why? Because there's so much counter-intuitive information. 

But I would like some thoughts on this.


----------



## bluwulf

I think the box sets do engage new readers.  I remember some of Viola's reviewers even stated that they were waiting for the box set to come out.  I actually think it's a great idea for the reader to have the permafree to try it out and if they like the story they can buy the box set.


----------



## Lady Vine

I'm not sure whether you could call the readers "new" on box sets, seeing as your individual titles will likely fall in ranking once you release your sets. I think that's just par for the course, though. When people have the option of saving money, they'll likely take it.


----------



## Guest

Lady Vine said:


> I'm not sure whether you could call the readers "new" on box sets, seeing as your individual titles will likely fall in ranking once you release your sets. I think that's just par for the course, though. When people have the option of saving money, they'll likely take it.


But here lies the crux of the question. When faced with book two for .99 or 2.99 vs the box set for 3.99 or more, will you lose / gain a reader based on whether that boxed set option is available? Just want some clarity on this.


----------



## Scottish Lass

vmblack said:


> If you have 6 serials at permafree and $2.99, you might box up two sets of three at $4.99 each. Then, you'd almost certainly lose royalties.


This is where I'm at with Secrets - but I'm looking at it from the reader's (buyer's) POV, ie if it's better for the reader then hopefully it will eventually be better for me...


----------



## CristinaRayne

ShaneJeffery said:


> But here lies the crux of the question. When faced with book two for .99 or 2.99 vs the box set for 3.99 or more, will you lose / gain a reader based on whether that boxed set option is available? Just want some clarity on this.


I have had reviews of Part One (permafree) of my serial where the reader states that they don't plan on continuing with the serial until either all the subsequent Parts are available or even depending upon whether or not they are released in a box set. Saying that, unless they review again or give some other type of feedback, you have no way of knowing whether they won't just decide to buy each part anyway even if you _don't_ release them in a box set. Thus, I look at the issue of box sets as just giving readers as many options as possible when they're trying to decide whether they want to buy or not.


----------



## Catnip

Speaking as a reader, I really dislike the serial format (though I can see why writers like it). I won't buy individual books in a serial unless they're by one of a very small number of writers whose work I really love. But when it comes to writers outside that group, I would buy a box set instead, assuming it was a little cheaper that way.


----------



## von19

So... I was just scrolling through Amazon and I noticed a very large uptick in Werewolf books. Very _similar_ looking Werewolf books... *cough*

Sent from The International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Redacted1111

Considering the 80/20 rule and the vast amount of time I spent writing my last two full-length novels, serial sales are definitely the 80% part of the equation. I hate to disappoint readers, but the serial is vastly more productive for me as a writer. While I'm taking a great deal of what reviewers have said, (writing longer, complete stories) writing a shorter book that is part of a tight series is a far more productive use of my time than the full-length novel that is part of a lose series. 

It takes forever to write a good novel, which means having a loss leader takes even longer. That means, no matter how good the book and how well it's reviewed, it isn't as profitable as a serial. I've just taken about four months to write two novels, one of them isn't even close to done yet. All the while, my serials are still making me the most money. My new release novel is floundering in the 100k plus rank range and doesn't even make as much as the very first serial I wrote last year. This novel has 4.8 star review average and is so praised it isn't even funny. The serial loss leader has a 2.8 star review average and makes me more money. What am I supposed to think here? 

While I hate negative reviews, I also have to survive. I have to be able to support my daughter if anything happens to my marriage. People get so up in arms about authors trying to make a living, but it isn't like I'm rolling around on a pile of gold. I just don't want to end up in a homeless shelter or living in my mother's mobile home 2000 miles away. I have to do what works, even if some very vocal reviewers don't like it.


----------



## bluwulf

Kalypsō said:


> It takes forever to write a good novel, which means having a loss leader takes even longer. That means, no matter how good the book and how well it's reviewed, it isn't as profitable as a serial. I've just taken about four months to write two novels, one of them isn't even close to done yet. All the while, my serials are still making me the most money. My new release novel is floundering in the 100k plus rank range and doesn't even make as much as the very first serial I wrote last year. This novel has 4.8 star review average and is so praised it isn't even funny. The serial loss leader has a 2.8 star review average and makes me more money. What am I supposed to think here?
> 
> While I hate negative reviews, I also have to survive. I have to be able to support my daughter if anything happens to my marriage. People get so up in arms about authors trying to make a living, but it isn't like I'm rolling around on a pile of gold. I just don't want to end up in a homeless shelter or living in my mother's mobile home 2000 miles away. I have to do what works, even if some very vocal reviewers don't like it.


For myself, the thought of writing a novel is just too overwhelming. With serials I can at least focus on one chunk at a time and feel some sense of accomplishment when I'm finished. I don't understand what people have against authors making money. Who wants to work for free? I know I don't.


----------



## @Suzanna

vmblack said:


> Ah. I wonder about Canada! My sales there can get me a Happy Meal. LOL.


When I purchase a book from Amazon, I go through the .com store. I think many other Canadians do as well.

(I do purchase many of my books from Kobo, though.)


----------



## Maria Romana

This:


Viola Rivard said:


> While I appreciate all of my readers, the ones that I need to cater to are the ones that love my work and, by proxy, review it favorably. So far this is, to my knowledge, the best strategy to both maximize profits, reader loyalty, and positive reviews.


And this:


Kalypsō said:


> While I hate negative reviews, I also have to survive. I have to be able to support my daughter if anything happens to my marriage. People get so up in arms about authors trying to make a living, but it isn't like I'm rolling around on a pile of gold. I just don't want to end up in a homeless shelter or living in my mother's mobile home 2000 miles away. I have to do what works, even if some very vocal reviewers don't like it.


It's never any fun to get negative reviews, but I'm not going to let it stop me from creating my art the way I see fit. I love the worlds and the characters that I create, and I'd rather keep making up adventures for those people, then always be inventing new people/places. Fortunately, there are a lot of consumers who enjoy getting involved in a world and its characters and staying there and just going deeper and deeper. This is why we have Harry Potter books and television series that stay on the air for twenty years. There may be people who don't like these things, that's fine, they don't have to buy our stuff, but why do they feel they have to be on a mission to crush us out like bugs?

Sorry, just a rant/vent. And I do feel better now .


----------



## Guest

Viola, thanks for sharing your info on bundles. 

~~~



Maria Romana said:


> It's never any fun to get negative reviews, but I'm not going to let it stop me from creating my art the way I see fit. I love the worlds and the characters that I create, and I'd rather keep making up adventures for those people, then always be inventing new people/places. Fortunately, there are a lot of consumers who enjoy getting involved in a world and its characters and staying there and just going deeper and deeper. This is why we have Harry Potter books and television series that stay on the air for twenty years. There may be people who don't like these things, that's fine, they don't have to buy our stuff, but why do they feel they have to be on a mission to crush us out like bugs?
> 
> Sorry, just a rant/vent. And I do feel better now .


Maria, thanks for sharing your thoughts on that.

If ALL of our reviews are negative, that's a different matter. However, most of us are good writers who are blessed with a variety of reviews.

Most of us have readers who leave us positive reviews, who then go join our mailing list, who "like" us on Facebook, who follow us on Twitter, and so on.

And yet, when a person leaves us a negative review, oftentimes, THAT is the person who captures our thoughts and gets our attention. It's bullsh*t, and ultimately, disrespectful - it's disrespectful to ignore the people who like what we do.

If you hate the way I write and you leave a negative review, fine. No problem. Leave your review and then move on. You don't like what I write, and therefore, you're not one of my readers. I don't expect to see you back, and if you do come back, I'll wonder why.


----------



## Maria Romana

Joliedupre said:


> And yet, when a person leaves us a negative review, oftentimes, THAT is the person who captures our thoughts and gets our attention. It's bullsh*t, and ultimately, disrespectful - it's disrespectful to ignore the people who like what we do.


Ugh, thank you for reminding me of this. Down deep, I know this, but every time I see a negative review, it flies right out of my head, and I _need _reminding. Thanks for slapping some sense back into me!

 Maria


----------



## kathrynoh

Jolie, I've released a series, not a serial yet and there are people who bought book 2 after leaving a bad review on book 1 just so they could leave a bad review. What can you do though? They are only tormenting themselves in the end.

I don't read bad reviews now. I just filter them out on Amazon or GR because it stops me from writing.


----------



## Madison Johns

I agree that box sets are a better money making idea, plus in boxed form you can get way more readers with a BookBub ad. I talked a few people into them because there are readers who will wait, and new readers it's still a deal versus buying them separate. I believe it should be part of your marketing strategy.


----------



## Guest

Maria Romana said:


> Ugh, thank you for reminding me of this. Down deep, I know this, but every time I see a negative review, it flies right out of my head, and I _need _reminding. Thanks for slapping some sense back into me!
> 
> Maria


We all do it, and we all need to be reminded! 



kathrynoh said:


> Jolie, I've released a series, not a serial yet and there are people who bought book 2 after leaving a bad review on book 1 just so they could leave a bad review. What can you do though? They are only tormenting themselves in the end.


Yep, but Karma can deal with that. I'll just try to put my focus where it should be - on my readers and on the next book. It's a daily practice, but I'm determined to do it. 



Madison Johns said:


> I agree that box sets are a better money making idea, plus in boxed form you can get way more readers with a BookBub ad. I talked a few people into them because there are readers who will wait, and new readers it's still a deal versus buying them separate. I believe it should be part of your marketing strategy.


Excellent information in this thread on bundles or boxed sets. Definitely something to think about.


----------



## Redacted1111

What it comes down to is that trying to please haters is a bad business model. Even if those people shout REALLY loud. 

As far as boxed sets go, if your serial is more than three episodes and you can offer a discount, they are probably a good idea. If you have just three episodes priced free, 99 cents, and $2.99, then a boxed set is probably a waste of time and money. Just my two cents.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Silly or maybe not so silly question: 
Is it better to have your serial have the same title, with part 1, part 2 part 3
or different titles for each installments?


----------



## Andie

vmblack said:


> DIFFERENT TITLE.
> 
> Not doing that caused my Amazon glitch that totally kill the recommendation engine for book 2.
> 
> Lots of people have no probs with Part One, Part Two, etc. HM Ward has done it for 15 books now! But I say DON'T RISK IT.
> 
> Yes, I'm yelling.  If Betsy wouldn't zap me, I would make the words blink. LOL.


Did you include the part number as part of the title in the actual title line? Not that I just ordered a bunch of covers with the same title name and different part numbers for my new serial or anything. 

I did use different titles for my current (contemporary erotic) serial, but was hoping to try a different approach for my next one.


----------



## Lady Vine

Kalypsō said:


> Considering the 80/20 rule and the vast amount of time I spent writing my last two full-length novels, serial sales are definitely the 80% part of the equation. I hate to disappoint readers, but the serial is vastly more productive for me as a writer. While I'm taking a great deal of what reviewers have said, (writing longer, complete stories) writing a shorter book that is part of a tight series is a far more productive use of my time than the full-length novel that is part of a lose series.
> 
> It takes forever to write a good novel, which means having a loss leader takes even longer. That means, no matter how good the book and how well it's reviewed, it isn't as profitable as a serial. I've just taken about four months to write two novels, one of them isn't even close to done yet. All the while, my serials are still making me the most money. My new release novel is floundering in the 100k plus rank range and doesn't even make as much as the very first serial I wrote last year. This novel has 4.8 star review average and is so praised it isn't even funny. The serial loss leader has a 2.8 star review average and makes me more money. What am I supposed to think here?
> 
> While I hate negative reviews, I also have to survive. I have to be able to support my daughter if anything happens to my marriage. People get so up in arms about authors trying to make a living, but it isn't like I'm rolling around on a pile of gold. I just don't want to end up in a homeless shelter or living in my mother's mobile home 2000 miles away. I have to do what works, even if some very vocal reviewers don't like it.


I'm with you on the serials. What people who complain about length don't understand is that, if I didn't write the story as a novelette/novella/whatever, I wouldn't write it at all. Don't get me wrong, I like writing novels, but publishing them is a different matter altogether. Much riskier, IMO. Besides, some stories are just meant to be short, whether the readers like it or not. They can't go on indefinitely. I'd much prefer a short story written tightly, than a drawn out story padded for length.


----------



## Andie

vmblack said:


> Yep, I did.
> 
> I'm thinking--not sure, but thinking--that it might have happened because I had both books in processing at the same time? But it's happened to other people. The Powerless author, now called Outage (I think)--sorry, I'm messing up on this--anyhow, she had something similar happen. It didn't kill her as badly as it did me, but I think they took my FIRST book out and made the SECOND book "old" instead of the other way around, killing my new release mojo.
> 
> Anyway, I'm no longer tempting fate.


Darn. Thanks so much for the warning. Back to the title drawing board!


----------



## Andie

CristinaRayne said:


> Serial authors, a quick question. This morning I noticed that my permafree in the Amazon UK and AU stores were switched back to paid. I was just wondering if anyone else has had this happen, if it's a common occurrence, etc? This has thrown a huge wrench in my momentum as I have been selling well in both those countries.


I think this does happen occasionally with permafree titles. Have you tried contacting Amazon to fix it?


----------



## Lady Vine

Andie said:


> I think this does happen occasionally with permafree titles. Have you tried contacting Amazon to fix it?


Common occurrence, I'm afraid. I have no idea why this happens to those stores and not to .com. Weird and annoying.


----------



## Andie

I hope they fix it for you quickly!


----------



## Maria Romana

CristinaRayne said:


> Serial authors, a quick question. This morning I noticed that my permafree in the Amazon UK and AU stores were switched back to paid. I was just wondering if anyone else has had this happen, if it's a common occurrence, etc? This has thrown a huge wrench in my momentum as I have been selling well in both those countries.


Ugh, yes, so dreadful. I've never gotten free in AU, but my UK and CA freebies went back to paid for a while, and I was miserable. Months later, I've still not quite gotten back to where I was in the UK when it happened. I went from 50-60 downloads per day there down to 10-15 . And I hadn't done anything to my books when this happened, so yeah, just some random algorithmic fluke.


----------



## Maria Romana

vmblack said:


> Mine are the opposite. I can finally write to my natural length, which is door-stopper. To have a FULL external plot, a FULL emotional plot, and a whole lot of sex, I need a huge hunk of text. Especially when I'm doing something stupidly difficult and ambitious like my vampire books. I can't put out that many words--170k now, and climbing--in a single chunk. I need the "shelf space" the novellas give me.


Yes, this is so me! I love to write long, complex stories with lots of characters, locations, events, and sub-plots, and that just doesn't work with the typical 70-100K novel length. When I first spewed out the original version of my first series, it was over 220K--much too long for a single book, at least in the romantic suspense genre. I tried and tried to trim it down, but there was no way to do it without destroying what I'd built. About that time, I saw how popular series were becoming (this was several years ago, in the pre-serial era), so I ended up re-writing the whole thing into three separate books. I personally feel like each one is a complete enough story on its own (and plenty long enough at 60-70K), but of course, there are those who disagree. Regardless, the serial format is the perfect way for me to tell my stories, so I'm stickin' to it and plowing ahead with my second series.


----------



## Jacqueline_Sweet

I have an urban fantasy romance novel that I wrote in three distinct parts, with each part having an arc to it. And I can't decide if I should serialize it or publish it as a novel. The benefits of serialization might be too much to resist.


----------



## Maria Romana

Jacqueline_Sweet said:


> I have an urban fantasy romance novel that I wrote in three distinct parts, with each part having an arc to it. And I can't decide if I should serialize it or publish it as a novel. The benefits of serialization might be too much to resist.


How long is each part? If you've got three distinct parts, you should probably go for it as a serial. Just understand that you will get some of those negative reviews, but if you really describe it well going in, you can minimize that. Remember, one of the advantages of the serialization is that you can put each of the parts in different categories (fantasy, romance, urban fantasy, etc.) and dramatically increase exposure.


----------



## Authorius

I'm in the same boat--I can't decide if I should serialize my story, or make it a series of novels. I have two serials/series in the works. The first one, I have always planned to be a series of novels, and the second one has always been planned out as a serial. However, the first story has ended up a little shorter than I expected, so it's a tad short for its genre, but should be within acceptable length for a novel. The second story is shaping up to be a lot longer than I planned. So now I'm wondering if I should switch, and make the first one a serial, and the second one a series. But then, the second one was really built around the serial concept. But is it really even a serial if it ends up being almost full novel length?

*sigh*

I'm struggling with the idea of price right now, but obv I'm going to need to figure out how long they'll _really_ be, before I can decide on price.


----------



## 75910

Thanks for posting Viola!  I'm considering dipping my toe into the serial waters this fall.  I love the format!  It's very helpful when you and other post your results!


----------



## Maria Romana

I'll second that. Since this group of authors is pretty much pioneering the whole serial concept for the digital age, we have no other source of information on sales and marketing other than each other. Your sharing of results is invaluable help, and we greatly appreciate it!


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the update, Viola!


----------



## RinG

Thanks for the update. Sounds like it's doing really well, and that there's just no beating that 'first novel free' strategy.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Viola Rivard said:


> June is going well so far. Little bit of a summer slump, I'm projecting it at about 10%-15% less than May, though that could improve if things go well with my new idea.
> 
> I crunched some numbers and decided to play around with the new serial I'm working on. I have 2 of 3 entries released so far. First entry was doing well at 99 cents, but still only netting about $30/day, which was negligible compared to what my previous serial is still raking in. After doing some thinking, I decided to make it free. The big question was, should I make it free before or after I release book #3? The answer is probably after book #3, but I had a twitchy finger that just wouldn't stay still, so I made it free yesterday evening. Super pleased with KDP support, they were very prompt.
> 
> So far I'm seeing very similar numbers to Claimed, so I'm cautiously optimistic. It's gotten over 1,000 downloads today without so much as a tweet, and I'm pretty sure it'll crack top 100 by tonight, but time will tell. Book #2 is already up 400 ranks since last night, and I'm confident that at the very least, I'll break even. I'm gonna do a bknights promo tomorrow, less for the downloads and more for the exposure to different audiences. I've already been contacted on social media by people who never read Claimed, that are just picking up my work for the first time and enjoyed it. To me, that's priceless. But I digress.
> 
> Revised price model is going to be:
> Book #1: Free
> Book #2: $0.99
> Book #3: $2.99
> Bundle: $2.99
> 
> The bundle is going to be cheaper than my previous bundle because the story is about 80 pages shorter. I know that I could just jack up the price of Book#2 and slap $3.99 on the bundle, but it's just not my thing. I'm already making 18-20k a month, so I'm not about to go for broke. You're probably wondering why I would do a bundle, even though my final entry is $2.99. I've found the bundle to be a very stable source of revenue. Unlike my serial entries, which tended to dip after a few weeks, the bundle has been steady for over a month now. I'll reevaluate after the final entry has been out for 3-4 weeks and keep you posted.
> 
> Starting July 9th, once my final entry is $2.99, I'm going to be doing aggressive advertising campaigns for the first time. I'm allocating around $1,000 for ads: Bookbub, Freebooksy, ILoveVampireNovels, and RomanceReads to name a few. I may stagger it over July and August, especially if BB gets approved. I was very tempted to start advertising this month, but with only one expensive title out, it really would have been a waste. I'm glad I waited, and I'm sure next month will be my biggest month yet. I'm going to post all of the results here for you guys, numbers, charts, thoughts, et cetera. I encourage you to do the same!


I haven't entirely kept up with the thread, but this update has been my general experience, too. Sales are down in June compared to May. Mine are a lot lower than 15% of last month but a big part of that is because I haven't published anything new in over a month. However, what I DID publish was my box set, which has already sold double the number of copies of my normally best-selling second book in the series (since the first book is free, those 'sales' don't count). I've made 10x as much in royalties on that box set relative to the sales of that second book in the same span of time. This definitely tells me a box set of a serial is worthwhile, particularly if you've already got a solidly performing loss leader to get folks interested. I have altered the back matter of my first book to lead to the box set rather than the second book. I still have links to all the books in the serial at the end of Book 1, but it's the Box Set that gets that prominent full-page teaser with the cover and blurb.

I use that exact same price model, though my serials so far each have 6 titles in them, and I'm charging $6.99 for the box set. The length of each installment in the serial are 12-18k. The box set came out to around 220k.

I'm formatting and publishing the first book in my Rising Dragons series today, and I plan to discount the box set of the first series so that when I send my mailing list and social media blasts out tomorrow, folks will get a chance to pick it up for cheap before starting the new series. I have at least one vocal reader who keeps "wishing" on my FB page that "the kindle store will discount the box set again" (I first published it at $2.99 for a week before raising the price, letting only my mailing list know, and she apparently missed it).

Regarding some other comments I caught while skimming:


Titles: I have different titles for each book in the serial, with the book number in the subtitle. So it looks like this "Animus (Sleeping Dragons Book 1)" or something similar depending on retailer.
I agree about the novel vs. serial comments. I've written novels and serials and honestly I prefer the serial format. Mine tend toward long, and each installment comprises a smaller arc within the full serial's arc. My first novel could have been split up that way and published with better sales results, in my opinion, particularly if I had been able to discount just the first third of it to gain more sales for Parts 2 and 3. If I hadn't already had a contract with a publisher for that novel I would have done it differently. It was originally written in about 8-15k chunks, too, which just happens to be a length I'm comfortable writing. When I started planning my second dragon erotica serial, I estimated each installment would clock in at around 18k, and I'm not far off that mark (17.5k for the first book).




ShaneJeffery said:


> HM Ward said in this thread (from memory) that boxed sets are vampires. Meaning they eat up your sales of the original stories. Does anyone have any theories whether boxed sets create sales? Meaning, that they have generated readers from having boxed sets that wouldn't' have otherwise bought the series. Just curious.


The way I look at it, sales dwindle for the later books in the series anyway. Even though my own conversion rates are generally high from one book to the next, they are NOT 100% and they gradually drop off a little more with each book. The box set is a way for me to get the entire series into people's hands who might not have otherwise bought all six books, and get them invested enough to buy the next series. Sure they may still read the first book in the second series and think, "I'll just hold out for the box set again", but I bet there will be enough readers who don't want to wait that long, who are more comfortable buying in $2.99 increments more frequently rather than waiting to shell out $6.99 in three months when the next box set is finally available.

After that box set is out, yes, sales for the individual titles drop, but I have no way of knowing how well they'd have sold otherwise. I suspect they wouldn't have really done that much better this far out since release, and my conversion rates are still decent (approximately 5% of the people who pick up the free first book go on to buy Book 2, 10% go on to buy the Box Set, and if folks managed to get to Book 3, most of them keep going).



ShaneJeffery said:


> But here lies the crux of the question. When faced with book two for .99 or 2.99 vs the box set for 3.99 or more, will you lose / gain a reader based on whether that boxed set option is available? Just want some clarity on this.


I think the pricing model still generates sales of the second book. When people finish the free first book, they have that option. Some may do the math and want the full series enough to go buy the box set. Others may hedge and opt to only spend the $0.99 for Book 2 - and THEN buy the box set. Either way, they're buying something, even if they stop after the second book. I don't care about those people who don't keep reading. I do what I can to keep them interested in the story, to make it easy for them to keep going with it, but I can't force them to spend their money. The best I can do is cultivate continued interest in the people who DO keep reading to ensure my loyal readers are happy. They are the ones who will feed my rank when I release new titles to increase visibility so that new readers can find me.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Viola Rivard said:
 

> I think that for super long/70% royalties serials, like VM & HM's it doesn't make as much sense to bundle. For 3 parts or 99 cents installments though, bundling is a good strategy. I'd be interested to hear how your bundling goes over the next couple months, Jesse, so keep us posted.
> 
> My Claimed serial plateaued after I released Book#4. After that, I made $3,000/week with a 150/week depreciation if I didn't release a new entry. The bundle performs at $3,000/week w/o depreciation, at least over the past five weeks. Starting next month, I'm going to trickle some advertising into its loss leader and hopefully it'll be enough to keep it alive and trucking all summer.
> 
> One thing I didn't anticipate about having a second permafree is that it has given my box set a big boost too. I was tempted to try writing a novel, but permafree is just too strong. Its already top 50 in the free store, and will probably hover around the 100s until I release the final part. Then I can douse book #1 in advertising and watch it blaze back up the charts. I really love this pricing structure. Next time, I'll definitely wait until all 3 parts are out until I make it free though. 3,500 downloads yesterday and only one book for them to move on to is_ le suck_ :|


Perfect timing. I was just trying to decide whether to make Book One of my newest serial free but this makes me think I should wait. It's sooooo hard to wait though, lol. I get twitchy waiting. That said, I have a new contemporary full coming out that I can get my fix with and I will just have to sit on my hands until I have the last part of that one out.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Viola Rivard said:


> One thing I didn't anticipate about having a second permafree is that it has given my box set a big boost too. I was tempted to try writing a novel, but permafree is just too strong. Its already top 50 in the free store, and will probably hover around the 100s until I release the final part. Then I can douse book #1 in advertising and watch it blaze back up the charts. I really love this pricing structure. Next time, I'll definitely wait until all 3 parts are out until I make it free though. 3,500 downloads yesterday and only one book for them to move on to is_ le suck_ :|


This is what I've been doing. Leveraging my current permafree into sales of my box set, which I hope to leverage to earn sales for the next series. With just one Bknights promo my permafree shot up in rank in the Free store (I think it was around 400ish when it usually sits in the 2000-1500 range... Author Central isn't showing me the graph today for some reason). I'll definitely do it again for the first book in Series 1, probably halfway through the second series. Then again for the first book in Series 2 once it's free.

Of course I wonder about the timing for my Box Set release. Perhaps I'll give the second series an extra month to earn single-title sales this time. For the first series I waited two weeks. But it's tough to judge whether my sales faltered during those two weeks because that's when I ran the promo that garnered THE best results (Freebooksy.com). But I maybe could have ridden that sales wave a little longer had I not released the box set when I did.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Viola Rivard said:


> Yeah, for the next one I'm going to wait a month before releasing the bundle. With Claimed I waited a week and I feel like it really ate up the momentum of the individual entries. Plus, I can time it with the release of my third serial.


This is what I'm doing right now. I didn't want to release a bundle until I had at least one more book out. I plan to release a novella next week and will probably bundle my 4-part serial at the same time. I wanted to wait at least a month after completing the serial to try bundling since sales of each part were still pretty steady. However, I did release a paperback omnibus edition already to see if I could generate interest from non-ebook readers. We'll see how that goes after I do a little advertising.


----------



## lucyvarna

CristinaRayne said:


> However, I did release a paperback omnibus edition already to see if I could generate interest from non-ebook readers.


Ok, yes...thank you. I know lots and lots of people who prefer holding a "real" (i.e. paper) book in their hands. So, thank you!


----------



## Maria Romana

CristinaRayne said:


> However, I did release a paperback omnibus edition already to see if I could generate interest from non-ebook readers. We'll see how that goes after I do a little advertising.


I'm also anxious to hear how this goes. I've been debating putting in the effort with CreateSpace. It's not really that much effort (I've done it before), but it's tough to justify even that little bit of time, if you only ever sell 10 copies in paperback.


----------



## RinG

For those who have the first in the series free, do you include it in the bundle? Even if you use it to funnel sales to the bundle? Just curious how this works.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Rinelle Grey said:


> For those who have the first in the series free, do you include it in the bundle? Even if you use it to funnel sales to the bundle? Just curious how this works.


I do. It seems silly to me to publish an incomplete collection. So what if they've already bought it for free? If they loved the whole series enough, they might just want to reread it all from front to back so it's more convenient to give it all to them.


----------



## Guest

Viola Rivard said:


> I'm too lazy. I'll see how it goes for you guys. I've got more stuff on my plate than... actually, I can't find an accurate analogy for how much I am behind on.
> 
> g2g.


Viola, you're doing so well that, if I were you, I would just keep doing what you're doing. It's authors like you who are my inspiration. So keep it up.  (I'm inspired by those at the top, not the bottom.)


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Rinelle Grey said:


> For those who have the first in the series free, do you include it in the bundle? Even if you use it to funnel sales to the bundle? Just curious how this works.


Yes, I always include it because readers who only ever saw the bundle wouldn't have read book one or even necessarily know about it, you know?


----------



## Ceinwen

vmblack said:


> I'm making one for every installment because I've had requests.


Your covers are so pretty I'm not surprised!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Josey Alden

I published the first book in my new BBW/shapeshifter serial last night! Thank you for sharing all of your serial knowledge!

This may be a bit off-topic, but my covers look awful in my signature. I noticed that V.M. Black's and Jolie Dupre's covers look perfect. I follow all the guidelines on Amazon and B&N for a high-resolution cover, but it looks bad on those sites, too. Twitter and Facebook seem fine. Has anyone had a similar issue? I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.


----------



## Lady Vine

Has anyone tried using preorders on their bundles? I think I'm going to do that with my new series, and put it on from about book 2 or 3, leaving 4-8 weeks from the release of the final book. I suppose the permafree would act as marketing for the boxed set.


----------



## Scottish Lass

Lady Vine said:


> Has anyone tried using preorders on their bundles?


I've seen a few people talk about pre-orders recently, but I didn't think they were available on KDP or Select - or maybe only if you're a top-seller?

Have I missed something?


----------



## Calista Cage

Viola, I have been following all your threads and decided to actually register so this is my first post.  

First, congrats.  Both on your success and dealing with your health issues.  I wish you much success with both and will go downvote any bad reviews.  

1.  Did you have a mailing list before starting?

2.  Did you have any facebook followers before this as well?

Thanks!
Calista


----------



## Terry Bon

What a great & informative thread! Thanks to everyone for posting their experiences.

I do have a question: how do you make your books permanently free on Amazon? I'm only aware of the 5 day free option via Select.


----------



## Calista Cage

Viola Rivard said:


> Having a mailing list right from the start, especially when you're publishing serials, is the key to driving sales. Put a link to it in your backmatter, not the front. It clogs up the beginning of your book and readers are much more likely to sign up after they've read the book.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Thanks for the response! That totally makes sense to me. I would think putting it in front and back would be best. But maybe that would seem to spammy.


----------



## C.F.

Calista Cage said:


> Thanks for the response! That totally makes sense to me. I would think putting it in front and back would be best. But maybe that would seem to spammy.


I've experimented with this and my links in the front get 25% of my clicks. I used to think front links were pointless, but the numbers have proven me wrong. I'd say experiment and see what works for you.

ETA important note: I do not write serials, so having a few links in the front does not have a huge impact on my sample size. Since this a thread about serials, it might be better to just do back matter links. The only way to know for sure is to test.


----------



## Jacqueline_Sweet

What do you serial gurus think about spreading your serial installments amongst different categories? I've seen some people recommend that, to maximize exposure. My current serial could fit in erotica or romance or fantasy, would spreading it across the three main categories (in terms of Amazon classification) maximize reader reach, or dilute it? 

I honestly can't tell.


----------



## Andie

Not sure, Jacqueline, but good question.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Jacqueline_Sweet said:


> What do you serial gurus think about spreading your serial installments amongst different categories? I've seen some people recommend that, to maximize exposure. My current serial could fit in erotica or romance or fantasy, would spreading it across the three main categories (in terms of Amazon classification) maximize reader reach, or dilute it?
> 
> I honestly can't tell.


I've thought about it, but I tend toward erotica and have found I get fewer bad reviews if I keep my stuff in the erotica categories. However the later books in my serial tend not to get reviews anyway so maybe I ought to try it with some of them. It's too late for my already published stuff - once you choose the Erotica category you're stuck there, as far as I can tell. And if you choose a keyword that points to an erotica subcategory, it seems like you'll get put in that erotica subcategory, rendering any non-erotica categories you chose null.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Viola Rivard said:


> I've considered crossing over to a different sub genre, but Fantasy best suits what I do right now. I can't imagine the extra exposure would have any negative repercussions. The only thing you may want to consider is if you're aiming to be a Top 100 author in one genre, it's better not to deviate.
> 
> ~
> 
> I have an advertising blitz scheduled for next week. I don't really have a goal, I kind of just want to experiment with different things to see how much it would take to land a USA Today slot. I think I'm going to shoot for that sometime in September. I have Freebooksy, Romance Reads, ILVN, and I'm still waiting to hear back from Bookbub. I may throw on another BKnights too. I'll post all the results here for referencing.


I thought Romance>Fantasy made sense when I first published, but learned pretty quickly that wasn't the case. Your stories lean a lot more toward romance than mine do, at least my first series. So I stuck to Erotica to avoid p*ss ing people off. And I discovered I like that little niche in the Amazon world. The new erotica subcategories they added increased my visibility a LOT. My box set is currently sitting at #2 in the Bisexual Erotica category and there have been days when I've had multiple books in the top 20 in various erotica subcategories. It makes ME feel good and it increases my sales, too. Maybe not as much as they'd be increased if I managed to rank in a Romance category, but that's a much more competitive category.

I'm trying an experiment today, as a result of this thread. My second best seller is my second book in the series: _Tabula Rasa_. Today I switched the categories and the keywords to less erotic ones. We'll see what happens...

Regarding your promo plan, have you tried those before? I love Freebooksy and look forward to another excuse to use them. Bookbub is expensive so I've been holding off until I have enough reviews to justify spending the money (I've got 22 so far... the more the better, I hear). BKnights is always a small bump, but I always earn back what I spend on it, and then some, so it's absolutely worth the money (I've done two BKnights promos so far and have been happy with both.) I look forward to hearing how they worked for you.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Jacqueline_Sweet said:


> What do you serial gurus think about spreading your serial installments amongst different categories? I've seen some people recommend that, to maximize exposure. My current serial could fit in erotica or romance or fantasy, would spreading it across the three main categories (in terms of Amazon classification) maximize reader reach, or dilute it?
> 
> I honestly can't tell.


I've tried this with a couple of my serial installments, placing three in strictly romance categories and one in Fantasy/Paranormal, but really, there's no way for me to tell if that had any effect or not except maybe in my Author ranking at Amazon and a couple of reviewers that complained that it was Romance and not the type of Fantasy they were expecting.



Viola Rivard said:


> I have an advertising blitz scheduled for next week. I don't really have a goal, I kind of just want to experiment with different things to see how much it would take to land a USA Today slot. I think I'm going to shoot for that sometime in September. I have Freebooksy, Romance Reads, ILVN, and I'm still waiting to hear back from Bookbub.


I've been thinking of doing a Bookbub ad too, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone mention any results on a serial boxset/bundle so it'd be interesting to see how you do.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Viola Rivard said:


> Oh, funny story. I spent three days looking for cover art of a blond male for my next serial. I found one with a super nice chest that was paired up with a woman in some pretty nice poses. I was like JACKPOT! but something was nagging at me. _Where have I seen these stock images before?_ Then it hit me. Elven King! *Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu----!* My cover artist was able to find a couple other hunky dudes that fit the bill, so it all worked out in the end.


I had/have the same issue. Thankfully, photoshop allows easy hair-coloring changing and hair replacement. I'd ask Yoly about it Viola, it's hard but not impossible.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Viola Rivard said:


> Oh, funny story. I spent three days looking for cover art of a blond male for my next serial. I found one with a super nice chest that was paired up with a woman in some pretty nice poses. I was like JACKPOT! but something was nagging at me. _Where have I seen these stock images before?_ Then it hit me. Elven King! *Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu----!* My cover artist was able to find a couple other hunky dudes that fit the bill, so it all worked out in the end.


Ha, ha. I know what you mean. Those particular models must be really popular because lately I've run across several covers that have them. Glad it didn't cause you too much trouble. I've gotten to where I've been searching for more obscure places for stock art because it seems every time I find a great image, two or three people have already used it!


----------



## AssanaBanana

Viola Rivard said:


> Oh, funny story. I spent three days looking for cover art of a blond male for my next serial. I found one with a super nice chest that was paired up with a woman in some pretty nice poses. I was like JACKPOT! but something was nagging at me. _Where have I seen these stock images before?_ Then it hit me. Elven King! *Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu----!* My cover artist was able to find a couple other hunky dudes that fit the bill, so it all worked out in the end.


A friend of mine used those models, too... I have to do a double-take every time I see those covers 

I agree with vmblack. The first time I ran a promo it coincided with a new book release so I had no idea how much the book release drove sales vs the promo. I can be pretty certain the promo drove more sales than the release, but if I'd been running multiple promos at once? I would have no idea which one resulted in more sales.

I bet Freebooksy will generate more sales than BKnights will. When my Freebooksy promo went live, I ended up with about 1300 downloads of my freebie on the first day (the most ever for me - my free downloads average about 50 per day). It also resulted in my most profitable week ever. BKnights always gives a nice bump, but nowhere near in that range and the sales/downloads drop off much quicker. It's still worth it because you DO get a bump (and I'm betting you will get a bigger bump than I did).

I guess the question is, should you maximize your sales by running a promo in conjunction with a release date? Drive your visibility up for that title in the first week? Or should you hold out just to get a handle on which promotional tools work best? I'd love someone to tell me "yes, absolutely run your promo for book 1 on the release day of book 2" for example. Or absolutely DON'T do it that way... I have no idea.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Jacqueline_Sweet said:


> What do you serial gurus think about spreading your serial installments amongst different categories? I've seen some people recommend that, to maximize exposure. My current serial could fit in erotica or romance or fantasy, would spreading it across the three main categories (in terms of Amazon classification) maximize reader reach, or dilute it?
> 
> I honestly can't tell.


So I did an experiment today. I tried to move one of my books OUT of the Erotica category into others (I chose Fantasy>Paranormal and Romance>Paranormal). Now that the title is live again, it is still solidly stuck in Erotica.

Perhaps that only means that once you gain a rank in an Erotica category you are stuck there, but that's the whole point in spreading out your categories, isn't it? Getting ranked in the top 100 to gain visibility?

My conclusion is that if you are trying to spread out among categories, avoid Erotica categories unless you feel your work is dirty enough to warrant it (like mine is). I believe I do better in those categories. They are smaller, for one thing, so I'm more likely to rank higher up in the subcategories (my books consistently rank in the top 20 of one of the subcats). But I am locked out of any other categories. I imagine "Romance>Erotica" is still valid and won't get you stuck in erotica, but not "Fiction>Erotica".

Because once you DO rank in an Erotica category, you will never be able to change it, so make sure you're ready to commit to Erotica before you choose it.

I think for my next serial installment I will try to put it in a non-erotica category from the start and see how it does.


----------



## Andie

JessePearle said:


> So I did an experiment today. I tried to move one of my books OUT of the Erotica category into others (I chose Fantasy>Paranormal and Romance>Paranormal). Now that the title is live again, it is still solidly stuck in Erotica.
> 
> Perhaps that only means that once you gain a rank in an Erotica category you are stuck there, but that's the whole point in spreading out your categories, isn't it? Getting ranked in the top 100 to gain visibility?
> 
> My conclusion is that if you are trying to spread out among categories, avoid Erotica categories unless you feel your work is dirty enough to warrant it (like mine is). I believe I do better in those categories. They are smaller, for one thing, so I'm more likely to rank higher up in the subcategories (my books consistently rank in the top 20 of one of the subcats). But I am locked out of any other categories. I imagine "Romance>Erotica" is still valid and won't get you stuck in erotica, but not "Fiction>Erotica".
> 
> Because once you DO rank in an Erotica category, you will never be able to change it, so make sure you're ready to commit to Erotica before you choose it.
> 
> I think for my next serial installment I will try to put it in a non-erotica category from the start and see how it does.


It does. I did this with the first in my serial and now it might as well be stuck there. Which is sort of okay for me now, because the first part is very erotica-ish and giving away tons of free copies in the romance section got me some less-than-stellar reviews.

You can get it moved out, but you have to contact KDP and request it. I got mine moved back to romance by letting them know that I thought it fit there better, and by giving them two exact categories I wanted it placed in.

However, every time I make any change and republish (even a blurb change through KDP or updating the file to make the back matter current), it automatically goes back to erotica, and I have to email all over again (hoping I get a person who will move it the first time I ask). This is kind of a pain in the butt, and the first part of the serial really is more erotica than romance (the romance builds in later parts) so I've left it there. Plus the reviews seem much better in erotica for this particular title.


----------



## Justawriter

Viola Rivard said:


> Too late! Oh well. Live and learn.


You'll be fine. You'll still be able to get a good idea of what is working. Is ENT one of the promos you are trying? That's my second best, behind BookBub, and it's dirt cheap. Another nice thing about it is that you will know exactly how well it worked, because they will send an invoice showing how many copies the ad moved, based on the affiliate tracking code.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Question: 
Would it be better to maintain a steady monthly release schedule of 25k serial? 
Or would it be better to release the 1+2 together, and then maintain a monthly release schedule from there on out? 
Or would it be better do a closer than monthly release schedule? 
What is the optimal spacing for 25k Serial Werewolf BBW Paranormal novella, that is -- despite my best intentions -- a little more plot heavy/character heavy/romance heavy than sex heavy. So more romance/suspense than erotic romance.


----------



## BlairErotica

S.R.F said:


> Question:
> Would it be better to maintain a steady monthly release schedule of 25k serial?
> Or would it be better to release the 1+2 together, and then maintain a monthly release schedule from there on out?
> Or would it be better do a closer than monthly release schedule?
> What is the optimal spacing for 25k Serial Werewolf BBW Paranormal novella, that is -- despite my best intentions -- a little more plot heavy/character heavy/romance heavy than sex heavy. So more romance/suspense than erotic romance.


Too many options for my wee brain! 
I just released the first book in an erotic series that is 25k words (PERSONAL SPY) and the second book is planned for release in one month. I introduced the first at 99 cents but it will go up to $2.99 soon. I have three books scheduled (each at 25 to 30k) to see how it goes. My intention, based in part on info in this thread is to keep them all at $2.99 (I'll use a 99 cent intro for a week). So, of course, the issue of bundling arises yet (ack!) again. The consensus here seems to be that such a bundle would take away sales, but maybe not. I think that opinion was almost definite, but I'm not sure (about much). Seeing as even established players (hello Viola) are back and forth on all of these things I guess its everyone experimenting and just finding out what works for them. The one thing I have noticed serious agreement on is the three to four week window for putting out the next book.

Okay, back to writing then.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Viola Rivard said:


> I think I looked into ENT and they don't allow for sexy books  If you guys can think of any promos I'm missing though, let me know!
> 
> Not sure. I may try to do two launches at once for my next serial. I haven't really considered it from a financial perspective, more of a reader satisfaction thing. The hook is going to be pretty hard for the first book, so I think there will be a lot of people p*ssed off if there's nothing else to move on to afterwards.
> 
> Has anyone done this? Satisfied, dissatisfied?


I'd say that hook of this one is mid-hard too. I'm thinking of pulling a VM and making the next chapter available to mailing-list subscribers.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

vmblack said:


> I'm now sticking with a steady release schedule. I'm trying to get my readers used to my predictability. Just starting out, I'd be tempted to release 1 then launch 2 the day 1 goes permafree.


How long does that take?


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

vmblack said:


> Not long if you're on google play! Lol.


So for all purposes that would be an instantaneous release. 
Thanks!


----------



## Justawriter

Viola Rivard said:


> I think I looked into ENT and they don't allow for sexy books  If you guys can think of any promos I'm missing though, let me know!


Wouldn't hurt to submit. They are very subjective about what they choose. A friend of mine was accepted and her book is straight out erotica, more obviously so than yours. So, it's worth a shot.


----------



## AssanaBanana

MariePinkerton said:


> I wanted to thank you all again for the great information in this thread. It's been extremely helpful. I've gotten my first self-pub title up, a serial, partially due to this thread!
> 
> Folk were talking about whether to categorize their books as erotica right away, or wait. I considered that long and hard (um, pun not intended), and ended up just putting it into normal categories for now. I think my story is more erotic romance than erotica, and I didn't want to close the door and risk getting it flagged as adult. I've read too many horror stories -- I'd rather err on the side of caution at this point. I figure it's easier -- and possible -- to recategorize into erotica than move away from it.


You won't get flagged as "adult" just by choosing the erotica category, or even racy keywords. The things that get you shoved into the dungeon are overtly sexual covers and descriptions - that's really it. Look at my stuff... it's as overt as I can make it and it still isn't flagged (the book "Gemini" got flagged with its former cover, but the new one passed).

Still, if you believe your stuff is closer to romance start with that category.


----------



## CristinaRayne

PamelaKelley said:


> Wouldn't hurt to submit. They are very subjective about what they choose. A friend of mine was accepted and her book is straight out erotica, more obviously so than yours. So, it's worth a shot.


This is good to know since I wanted to try ENT but thought they wouldn't accept erotic romance.


----------



## Madison Johns

Okay, so I did what everyone else is doing by making my first book in my serial free, but I never saw a huge bump of the second book so I did the unthinkable—I raised it back to $.99 and for a few days everything stopped, but now I'm getting about the same amount of sales on Amazon. Not a huge hit, but on Barnes and Noble my first book is blowing up. Nothing huge enough to impress most of you, but I'm now into the 508 stats mark. The last three days it's been up and up and sells better at B&N than it does on Amazon. I no longer have any free books. I had a few book free for a few months, but I didn't see a huge bump in sales of my backlist. When it comes to sales, I really think that it's important to try different things to see what works for you. I invested a huge amount into my covers so I have a lot to prove with this serial.


----------



## Andie

Boyd said:


> Andie, Jessie, can you folks give more details? If you use your two categories on erotica, you are putting yourself behind the filter voluntarily. If you are still ranking in erotica after changing those two out of erotica, look at your keywords, that's how you get into sub-categories. I'm scratching my head here trying to figure out what or why you think you are stuck there?
> 
> If you look up your book with salesrankexpress.com and it has -Adult to the right of your book title and kindle edition, then Amazon put you in the adult dungeon. That's when you email kdp and find out what it takes to get you out. Usually it's the naughty word list or a no-no on the cover image.... I've always had a book come out of the dungeon when I ask nicely and fix what they "deem inappropriate".
> 
> My books are solidly under romance for my main 2 cats, but have erotica keywords. So my stuff is searchable, but still visibly erotica. No smoke and mirrors here.


Once you classify your books as erotica, then you can no longer manually move yourself out of erotica and into romance categories (I didn't realize this when I was first playing with how best to categorize my books). Not talking keyword classifications here, but actual choose-able categories. I've never had a book put in the adult dungeon, so it's not as if they aren't searchable. But if you classify yourself there, you can no longer pull it back out without someone at Amazon doing it for you.

Keyword classifications will then only work for erotica subjects, I believe, if you are categorized there. As far as I know, if a book is categorized in erotica, then it cannot also be categorized in romance. It's a one or the other kind of thing.

Again, just from what I've seen.

Edit to add: It's not like my books can't still be found--they're searchable. But the couple I've put in erotica can't be pulled back out into romance. I have one series that straddles the line between erotica and erotic romance, so I wasn't totally sure how to classify it in the beginning. But (in my experience) if you put yourself in an erotica category, be sure that's what the book is and that's where you want it to be, because it can be difficult to reclassify if you change your mind.


----------



## Andie

Boyd said:


> Andie, I pop back and forth all the time when testing things. I guess I don't understand. Sorry.


Interesting. Maybe it's just a problem I have with this book. 

I have heard others say they've had this issue, but maybe it's not universal.


----------



## AssanaBanana

@Boyd: When you've swapped categories from erotica, were you ranked in an erotica category? I have a feeling that it might be tougher to ditch the category once you've achieved a visible rank.


----------



## AssanaBanana

I'll look at my keywords again later. There are some keywords that apply to both Romance and Erotica subcategories ("menage" is one, for example). Maybe I need to purge my keywords, too.


----------



## Silly Writer

Sticking my head in, just so I can learn about keywords/categories. This mystifies me.

Carry on!


----------



## Silly Writer

Viola Rivard said:


> The trick I used to decide which keywords is:
> 
> 1. I think, if I wanted to read a book like mine, what would I type in?
> 2. I type in the first few letters of themes, to see what's trending. For example, I may have just went with the keyword "werewolf" but when I type "were" in the Amazon search engine, "werewolf romance" pops up. Therefore, I can infer that "werewolf romance" is a popular keyword.
> 
> I don't know if these are the best ways to go about this, but it's certainly served me well.


Thanks,Viola! That's a great tip. Do you use only 7, or do you put unlimited words behind the 7th one? I read somewhere that someone (lots) said that actually works if you don't put commas between the words (after the 6th comma). I didn't believe it, so I only used 7.


----------



## AssanaBanana

Boyd said:


> The book was ranked. I truly am puzzled now, going through some older kboards threads I've seen others mentioning this. Somehow I missed it, but I've never had an issue moving out... only if I kept the keywords that got me in the subcatagories the same... did I still rank in erotica. Somebody hit me with enlightenment!!!


I'm still learning what works. It's only been a day since I tried another category for my second title and I know nothing happens instantly on Amazon. The book in question is not currently ranked in any top 100 list. I'm waiting to see what happens before I mess with my keywords.

On the keyword topic: The trick is to find the ones that autofill the quickest. If you type something you think is a good keyword into Amazon's search field and it doesn't autofill for you, then it is probably useless. Just start typing in that field... Amazon will tell you what's the most popular search terms.

Mine typed into the Amazon search field: Dragon... The first result is Dragon Ball Z, which is not my target audience. So I add "shifter"... the dropdown now gives me dragon shifter erotica, dragon shifter romance, dragon shifter kindle books... which means people are actually typing in those terms to find books that might lead to my books. I want them to find MY books... so I want to use THOSE keywords. The ones that are most applicable that pop up in a standard Amazon search.


----------



## Andie

Boyd said:


> Good to know I wasn't losing my mind completely Andie


The quirks of Amazon know no bounds.


----------



## BlairErotica

JessePearle said:


> I'm still learning what works. It's only been a day since I tried another category for my second title and I know nothing happens instantly on Amazon. The book in question is not currently ranked in any top 100 list. I'm waiting to see what happens before I mess with my keywords.
> 
> On the keyword topic: The trick is to find the ones that autofill the quickest. If you type something you think is a good keyword into Amazon's search field and it doesn't autofill for you, then it is probably useless. Just start typing in that field... Amazon will tell you what's the most popular search terms.
> 
> Mine typed into the Amazon search field: Dragon... The first result is Dragon Ball Z, which is not my target audience. So I add "shifter"... the dropdown now gives me dragon shifter erotica, dragon shifter romance, dragon shifter kindle books... which means people are actually typing in those terms to find books that might lead to my books. I want them to find MY books... so I want to use THOSE keywords. The ones that are most applicable that pop up in a standard Amazon search.


Curious. I've never had ANY keywords autofill on Amazon. On Smashwords they do too much. I've started using the keywords that the help file has for erotica to get it into the right subcategories.


----------



## Moira Quinn

I've been lurking for a long time and this thread was pretty much has been what has encouraged me to sign up and take a chance at self-publishing. I've done a lot of research into self-publishing itself - the importance of a good cover, blurb, marketing, etcetera. Writing serials also appeals to me, because of my day-job schedule; I can work out a writing schedule that allows me to produce twenty-thirty thousand revised words a month without the "all or nothing" terror that a novel's time investment implies.

More importantly, though, it suits my attention-span and work habits. When I was younger I'd write novella-length works, and that seems to be the most natural form my writing likes to take.

That said (and this is embarrassing to admit) I haven't actually read a lot in the way of romance _serials_. I would greatly appreciate pointers to series that would serve as excellent examples of form; preferably on the cheap-to-free side, as my income is rather limited at the moment. More specifically, I'm interested in the adventure/thriller/sci-fi/fantasy subgrenes, as that's what I'd like to write.

Any further advice along the lines of romance writing as applies to serials is very welcome, particularly as pertains to those subgenres.

Thank you,

Moira


----------



## Chris1962

Just wondering, which of bknights promos you all are using?  There are several on his fiverr page.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Chris1962 said:


> Just wondering, which of bknights promos you all are using? There are several on his fiverr page.


I used this one: I will promote and Market Your Self Published Kindle Book To 4800+ Active Kindle Readers On My Facebook Page During Your Promo Or Marketing Period for $5
I mentioned that I was from kboards and was given the special upgrade that included all the other options for free.


----------



## Authorius

BlairErotica said:


> Curious. I've never had ANY keywords autofill on Amazon. On Smashwords they do too much. I've started using the keywords that the help file has for erotica to get it into the right subcategories.


They aren't talking about when you are filling in your metadata before you publish a book. They're talking about going to the Amazon store and typing in keywords in the search bar. As Viola said, if you type in "were" and stop before finishing the word, automatically a drop down menu suggest several possibilities, the first of which is "werewolf romance". So "werewolf romance" would be an ideal keyword for Viola to use when she does go to fill out the metadata for her book's keywords.

And yes, the endless list of suggestions that Smashwords gives you when you fill out their keyword metadata is incredibly annoying.  Especially since some of them are so useless and ridiculous.


----------



## Roxysloane

This was super interesting! Thank you so so much!


----------



## BlairErotica

Authorius said:


> They aren't talking about when you are filling in your metadata before you publish a book. They're talking about going to the Amazon store and typing in keywords in the search bar. As Viola said, if you type in "were" and stop before finishing the word, automatically a drop down menu suggest several possibilities, the first of which is "werewolf romance". So "werewolf romance" would be an ideal keyword for Viola to use when she does go to fill out the metadata for her book's keywords.


Ah! Me looking at things from the wrong perspective again. Thanks.


----------



## Moira Quinn

Do you authors maintain one mailing list, one per genre, or one per serial?


----------



## CristinaRayne

Moira Quinn said:


> Do you authors maintain one mailing list, one per genre, or one per serial?


I have a mailing list for my Paranormal Romance pen name and one for my Epic/Urban Fantasy pen name only.


----------



## Alexis Anne

CristinaRayne said:


> I used this one: I will promote and Market Your Self Published Kindle Book To 4800+ Active Kindle Readers On My Facebook Page During Your Promo Or Marketing Period for $5
> I mentioned that I was from kboards and was given the special upgrade that included all the other options for free.


I had no idea there was Kboards upgrade! Darn it! Oh well. I just decided to give them a try and my promo is running tomorrow.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CristinaRayne

Alexis Anne said:


> I had no idea there was Kboards upgrade! Darn it! Oh well. I just decided to give them a try and my promo is running tomorrow.


Send him a message asking for it. Others here have gotten the upgrade after ordering so it may not be too late.


----------



## OW

Hi Everyone
Firstly wanted to say thanks you for this thread, it great for newbies. I have just started my first serialized romance (waiting for part 1 to go live as we speak) and was wondering something which may have been covered already (sorry) though cant find it. I was wondering in regards to romances on the 'steamier' side of things, if each book instalment expected to contain a steamy scene? 
Many Thanks


----------



## Navigator

Would it be advisable to list a 3 book paranormal romance series at-
Book 1: .99c
Book 2: $2.99
Book 3: $2.99

Or make Book 1 also $2.99 so when I decide to bundle it (if, not sure if I will) it can be priced at $9.99 or a little less?

All three will be about 25k words each, and will be my first series. I plan on doing several stand alone books in the same category afterwords, all shorter, at .99c


----------



## nseneb

Is there a way to see all the categories an author chose from the BISAC on Amazon? Not just those that are currently ranking? 

For example, I see that "Claimed by the Alphas" ranks in Coming of Age, Werewolves, Paranormal & Urban. Are those the only three categories you chose, Viola? If not, how could I see the others?

I ask because I'm writing a story similar to another book that was published a year ago. This book has since fallen off the rankings, but I know I want to capture the same audience. Is there a way for me to see how the author categorized her book? BTW the book is "The Queen's Consorts" by Kele Moon.


----------



## OW

Also, I saw it mentioned that this is a good forum for getting advice on blurbs. I am really bad at blurbs and was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of where I can post mine to get them whipped into shape - thanks


----------



## Lehane

Olivia Wilson said:


> Hi Everyone
> Firstly wanted to say thanks you for this thread, it great for newbies. I have just started my first serialized romance (waiting for part 1 to go live as we speak) and was wondering something which may have been covered already (sorry) though cant find it. I was wondering in regards to romances on the 'steamier' side of things, if each book instalment expected to contain a steamy scene?
> Many Thanks


As a reader, I like to get at least some sort of steamy scene in each book. It doesn't have to be raucous and half the book, but I expect something. Even a dream sequence works. But that's just me, not sure what the more seasoned authors have found!


----------



## OW

Thanks Lehane, I'm currently working on a 'Part 2' so this is helpful


----------



## Silly Writer

Olivia Wilson said:


> Also, I saw it mentioned that this is a good forum for getting advice on blurbs. I am really bad at blurbs and was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of where I can post mine to get them whipped into shape - thanks


Here ya go: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,189261.0/topicseen.html

For blurbs


----------



## OW

L.L. Akers said:


> Here ya go: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,189261.0/topicseen.html
> 
> For blurbs


Thanks L.L, those videos hit the nail on the head.

On a separate note, how do people here tend to approach Smashwords, in particular the premium catalogue. Are there any channels to avoid when you upload if your work is on the steamier side?


----------



## Huldra

Olivia Wilson said:


> Thanks L.L, those videos hit the nail on the head.
> 
> On a separate note, how do people here tend to approach Smashwords, in particular the premium catalogue. Are there any channels to avoid when you upload if your work is on the steamier side?


Well that depends how you 'sell' the steam. I just got my first book un-blocked by Apple today *minor celebratory dance*, so my advice is: keep your keywords and blurp hinting at the smutty goodness inside, and as long as the content isn't rape/bestiality/incest/PI you are good to go on all retailers. 
Do not--I repeat, do NOT--use keywords that even remotely hint at these banned kinks.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

This is a good question re: steam. Do they have to have sex in the first installment, will it be too much of a tease if they almost do, but don't?


----------



## Huldra

Olivia Wilson said:


> Thanks Nash, there is nothing like that in it at all so not to worry. The blurbs a pretty straightforward romance, with a sexual content/adults only warning. The title contains the phrase BBW and keywords are pretty standard like holiday romance etc. You think that would be ok then? Am I to presume that they just wouldn't accept it if they didn't like it?


Yeah I think that'll be perfectly fine. 

If they don't approve (which I can't see why they wouldn't with regular steamy romance since they took my straight-up erotica after a re-work of blurp/keywords) you'll get a ticket in your Smashwords dashboard, telling you what the problem is. If it's fixable you can sort it out, email Smash support and let them know, and resubmit it.

You probably want to check the '18+ content' box when submitting at Smash though.


----------



## Twizzlers

What's Vellum?


----------



## CristinaRayne

J Ryan said:


> What's Vellum?


I believe she means the ebook creating software. Here's a link: https://180g.co/vellum/ I've been considering using it myself.


----------



## Redacted1111

That looks really nice. Too bad it's only available in for Macs.


----------



## Andie

Love Vellum. I used it recently to redo all of my books. Makes them look so snazzy, and it's super easy to use.


----------



## Navigator

Note to self: Buy a mac laptop in the future for Vellum.


----------



## Briteka

Viola Rivard said:


> My Bookbub got shot down. Bew hew. I requested on very specific days, so I'm gonna resubmit with a much vaguer request and see if that helps.
> 
> I Love Vampire Novels promo was good. Romance Reads is happening now. Freebooksy is tomorrow, I think. All in all, it was a little over a $200 investment, so it's worth it just for the exposure, if you have the money.
> 
> I'm redoing all of my books with Vellum, starting with my new serial. It's very pretty and looks much more professional. I'm a fan.
> 
> I had intended on making my latest serial entry longer and doing a Free>$0.99>$2.99 model, but it didn't turn out that long so I may try a Free>$1.99>$1.99 model with a $2.99 bundle, or, if I can really grow a pair [of ovaries], Free>$2.99>$2.99 and a $3.99 bundle. Stay tuned to see if I decide to make lots of money or if I chicken out!
> 
> All in all, Serial#2 was a good success and in my opinion, much better written than Serial#1. I'll be producing an audiobook for it in September, as well as a paperback. A lot of people want me to keep writing it, but I feel like the characters are done and I'm ready to move on to a more ambitious and profitable project.
> 
> Serial#3 is Running With the Alphas. I'm making it slightly more mainstream than my previous stories (there's going to be a car AND a house!). I'm still in the early drafting stages, but I'm going to aim for 30k word entries and I won't feel the least bit guilty about pricing those suckers at $2.99 cause between the cover and the premise, it'll come on like gangbusters no matter what I price at.


Just some words of encouragement... you're established. $2.99 will barely hurt your sales and will give you lots more money.  Also, from a buyer's perspective, there isn't much mental difference between $1.99 and $2.99. They're both cheap prices but neither are the "best" price possible ($.99). If $1.99 and $2.99 had the same royalty rate, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but at this point, $1.99 doesn't really make sense for any author to price at.


----------



## Madison Johns

All in all I'd say my serials I've lost money. I can't seem to get them noticed enough and my first two books have cliffhanger endings. My covers cost me a lot, but I do believe it was a good story. I just haven't been able to reach readers. They want more book about the characters, but I really have to think about it. Maybe I should have used a different pen name than my mystery books. I'm barely selling 40 a day, and at that price point that's not good. My first book, which was free went back up to $.99, but B&N it took off for four days. I'm doing the 1. $0.99 2. $0.99 3. $2.99, now they are boxed for $3.99. I basically have to have that 3rd book at $2.99 so the set looks like a deal. At some point I'll be trying for a BookBub. I really need a cheaper cover artist. I gave out a lot of ARC books to try to gain an audience, but I guess at this point I'm so frustrated and thinking that I should just quit writing.


----------



## Madison Johns

Viola Rivard said:


> My Bookbub got shot down. Bew hew. I requested on very specific days, so I'm gonna resubmit with a much vaguer request and see if that helps.
> 
> I Love Vampire Novels promo was good. Romance Reads is happening now. Freebooksy is tomorrow, I think. All in all, it was a little over a $200 investment, so it's worth it just for the exposure, if you have the money.
> 
> I'm redoing all of my books with Vellum, starting with my new serial. It's very pretty and looks much more professional. I'm a fan.
> 
> I had intended on making my latest serial entry longer and doing a Free>$0.99>$2.99 model, but it didn't turn out that long so I may try a Free>$1.99>$1.99 model with a $2.99 bundle, or, if I can really grow a pair [of ovaries], Free>$2.99>$2.99 and a $3.99 bundle. Stay tuned to see if I decide to make lots of money or if I chicken out!
> 
> All in all, Serial#2 was a good success and in my opinion, much better written than Serial#1. I'll be producing an audiobook for it in September, as well as a paperback. A lot of people want me to keep writing it, but I feel like the characters are done and I'm ready to move on to a more ambitious and profitable project.
> 
> Serial#3 is Running With the Alphas. I'm making it slightly more mainstream than my previous stories (there's going to be a car AND a house!). I'm still in the early drafting stages, but I'm going to aim for 30k word entries and I won't feel the least bit guilty about pricing those suckers at $2.99 cause between the cover and the premise, it'll come on like gangbusters no matter what I price at.


I think you have a good fan base and you'll still sell at $2.99, you could offer the $0.99 price the first few days for your fans if you want. One comment about BookBub, they almost always turn you down in the beginning. You've never used them before so you've not really proven who you are yet since you haven't been on an bestsellers lists. They blogged about how they decide who to feature. It took me four times before I was on there the first time, and it seems to be a standard. I always take whatever they have, but I also don't like weekend ads so I did start to tell them no weekends. Plus, if you want to be able to hit USA Today it's better for an early week ad.


----------



## Briteka

Madison Johns said:


> All in all I'd say my serials I've lost money. I can't seem to get them noticed enough and my first two books have cliffhanger endings. My covers cost me a lot, but I do believe it was a good story. I just haven't been able to reach readers. They want more book about the characters, but I really have to think about it. Maybe I should have used a different pen name than my mystery books. I'm barely selling 40 a day, and at that price point that's not good. My first book, which was free went back up to $.99, but B&N it took off for four days. I'm doing the 1. $0.99 2. $0.99 3. $2.99, now they are boxed for $3.99. I basically have to have that 3rd book at $2.99 so the set looks like a deal. At some point I'll be trying for a BookBub. I really need a cheaper cover artist. I gave out a lot of ARC books to try to gain an audience, but I guess at this point I'm so frustrated and thinking that I should just quit writing.


40 a day between 3 books= 13 a book. This is pretty good for a first timer. The key to serials is quick releases.

Until you now you can make the money back on covers, try a fiverr.com cover artist.

Your sales will build with each new release. Most of my money is made on my backlist. Having a permafree will help you a lot. Honestly, you're off to a great start.


----------



## Guest

Viola Rivard said:


> My Bookbub got shot down.


Whatever. With your sales, you don't need Bookbub.



> I'm still in the early drafting stages, but I'm going to aim for 30k word entries and I won't feel the least bit guilty about pricing those suckers at $2.99 cause between the cover and the premise, it'll come on like gangbusters no matter what I price at.


Go for it! You'll be a millionaire a lot faster if you charge $2.99.


----------



## Guest

VMた said:


> Paranormal romance isn't the cash cow people keep thinking it is. It's no easier to make money in than mystery or science fiction or fantasy. If you are looking for a quick buck, it came and went. Briteka's right. Most of the people who jumped on the BBW were bandwagon--which was super "hot"--are selling less than 10 a day at $.99. And that's before the 30-day cliff.


Be more specific, V.M. Are you talking about authors with just one book or more than one? You didn't go gangbusters with your FIRST book and neither did Viola. It didn't happen until you guys produced more than one book.


----------



## Twizzlers

That Vellum looks amazing and I'd love to give my books that look. Unfortunately I have a PC and kind of really hate using Macs.


----------



## Guest

VMた said:


> Oh, I'm talking about authors with 3, 4, even 5 books in a series. The vast, vast majority of them aren't doing well at all.


Okay, that makes it clearer.



> That doesn't mean that all paranormal romance is BAD. It's not. It doesn't mean that the serial form is BAD, either. It's also not. It just means that it's not the easy money so many people thought it would be. Two people have managed to ride Viola's coat-tails--that's it. Dozens tried. This is not a subgenre I'd touch now with a 10-foot pole unless you already have some traction in it. It's crazy crowded.


I have no interest in that subgenre. But if an author wants to write it, he or she should write it - with their eyes open. Not every author has the goal of making the amount of money you want to make.



> The brutal fact of the matter is that most books don't sell. The chances that you'll be one of those who sells is drastically increased by writing in a genre that you understand and for which you have respect.


Agreed.



> I wouldn't say I'm going gangbusters--especially after the Amazon burp that meant that my second book never made it to the HNR list at ALL--it just dropped straight off the cliff. *sigh* I'm doing okay across all my titles, though, and I'm building between releases, which is the best thing. I did barely any advertising for the past two months. I need to fix that, but I won't advertise for my $.99 titles because it's just. not. worth it. No more $.99 serials for me!


I checked your books. Like you said, you're not going gangbusters, but you're doing okay.


----------



## Guest

CristinaRayne said:


> I went 2.99 with my latest novella and because of it and releasing a box set, I'll probably make 5 figures this month. If they didn't burn _me_ at the stake, then you'll definitely be fine!


So you do think box sets are worth it? You don't think they take sales away from the individual books? Just gathering information.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Joliedupre said:


> So you do think box sets are worth it? You don't think they take sales away from the individual books? Just gathering information.


It's not so much that they're taking away from individual sales, just transferring. I still sell plenty of each individual part for the readers who prefer to buy a little at a time. Plus, there are the readers who picked up the freebie and were waiting for a box set to come out before purchasing anything. Having a box set caters to both types of readers so, for me, they are definitely worth it.


----------



## A.C. Nixon

Viola Rivard said:


> Thanks folks, I think I will go $2.99!
> 
> But if the mob swarms my house with torches and pitchforks, I'm pointing them all your way! ;-p


Don't send them to Texas, we have guns.

I've been following this thread for awhile, and you guys have have have inspired me to serialize a shelved project. Now all I have to do is finish what my current project.

I just want to thank all of you for sharing such wonderful information. Just so you know, the posts on what's not working are just as valuable as what is working. So to all of you that have shared - thank you.


----------



## Guest

CristinaRayne said:


> It's not so much that they're taking away from individual sales, just transferring. I still sell plenty of each individual part for the readers who prefer to buy a little at a time. Plus, there are the readers who picked up the freebie and were waiting for a box set to come out before purchasing anything. Having a box set caters to both types of readers so, for me, they are definitely worth it.


Okay, cool! Thanks!


----------



## AssanaBanana

A.C. Nixon said:


> Don't send them to Texas, we have guns.


As long as it isn't open season on romance writers (or fans) this month... there's a national romance writer's conference in San Antonio in a couple weeks.



CristinaRayne said:


> It's not so much that they're taking away from individual sales, just transferring. I still sell plenty of each individual part for the readers who prefer to buy a little at a time. Plus, there are the readers who picked up the freebie and were waiting for a box set to come out before purchasing anything. Having a box set caters to both types of readers so, for me, they are definitely worth it.


This is true. And if you think about it, you didn't put any more effort into writing to produce that box set. It's just an easier way for readers to consume what's already there in pieces. Same amount of ingredients, even less effort, and more revenue per ounce (for a very poor analogy).

In the first month my box set was released I sold nearly 300 copies of it. Granted it was discounted for about half that period (due to an irritating price matching - Google's fault), but it still earned me more than any other single title. It earned more than my three top-selling single titles from the prior month (before it was available), even though I sold more actual copies of those titles. It's my best-earning title to-date. No, it hasn't earned the same as the cumulative amount of ALL my others to-date. It does get fewer sales than those, but unit-for-unit those sales are worth a LOT more than the individual titles. I'd say it makes up for it, especially considering I do still get sales on those individual titles.


----------



## Guest

JessePearle said:


> This is true. And if you think about it, you didn't put any more effort into writing to produce that box set. It's just an easier way for readers to consume what's already there in pieces. Same amount of ingredients, even less effort, and more revenue per ounce (for a very poor analogy).
> 
> In the first month my box set was released I sold nearly 300 copies of it. Granted it was discounted for about half that period (due to an irritating price matching - Google's fault), but it still earned me more than any other single title. It earned more than my three top-selling single titles from the prior month (before it was available), even though I sold more actual copies of those titles. It's my best-earning title to-date. No, it hasn't earned the same as the cumulative amount of ALL my others to-date. It does get fewer sales than those, but unit-for-unit those sales are worth a LOT more than the individual titles. I'd say it makes up for it, especially considering I do still get sales on those individual titles.


Excellent information. Thank you!


----------



## ChelseaAuthorPromotions

Just wanted to say HELLO!  I've been watching Viola's post for awhile and I've never commented before now (you are my first Viola!) and Yes I've read your 1-6 part series  <3 I love that you explain your success in a way that's easy for writers to understand. Bigger conflict + smaller conflicts that are solved through each part. Beginning, Middle, Ends  

Anyways, just peeking my head in to say thanks for your honesty! Well deserved success on your serials! 


*waves to Jolie* Hey girl!


----------



## BlairErotica

VMた said:


> Yep, if I hadn't made the decision to go $.99....
> 
> It was because I THOUGHT I would be writing 14k to 17k pieces. Given that I have 24-26k at $2.99, I thought it would make more sense to go $.99 with these. And then I wrote long. Again. So I ended up doing 20k for $.99, which could have very easily have been just a tiny bit longer to get to a comfortable $2.99 range (for me--not for anyone else, mind you) by shaping the arc a little differently.
> 
> Reminder to self: You never write short. NEVER.


I have the same problem. I set out to write a series of stories that would be 10 to 15k. I just released the first and it is 25k, the second is nearly done and 20K+. The third will probably be at least that long. So its going to be $2.99 for that set when they are all out. The market be damned! It takes that many words to tell the story.


----------



## Guest

ChelseaAuthorPromotions said:


> Just wanted to say HELLO!  I've been watching Viola's post for awhile and I've never commented before now (you are my first Viola!) and Yes I've read your 1-6 part series  <3 I love that you explain your success in a way that's easy for writers to understand. Bigger conflict + smaller conflicts that are solved through each part. Beginning, Middle, Ends
> 
> Anyways, just peeking my head in to say thanks for your honesty! Well deserved success on your serials!
> 
> *waves to Jolie* Hey girl!


Hi Chelsea! I'm so happy you finally posted to Writers' Cafe here at KBoards. I tell as many authors as I can about this place. Some end up showing up, like you did.  Some don't. 

Yes, I would advise anyone interested in serials, and just writing in general, to read Viola's threads. They are invaluable. (The two are linked in Viola's sig line.)


----------



## ChelseaAuthorPromotions

Nice to meet you Viola 


Jolie, hehe! I know! I haven't been writing much..busy doing my author promo stuff LOL <3 So I've been a lurker  I saw both boards  I've been stalking...I mean following! Viola for awhile now  And believe me, whenever I see your name up before I ever posted I'm screaming HIIIIIIIIIIII JOLIE!!!  hehe!


----------



## Guest

ChelseaAuthorPromotions said:


> Nice to meet you Viola
> 
> Jolie, hehe! I know! I haven't been writing much..busy doing my author promo stuff LOL <3 So I've been a lurker  I saw both boards  I've been stalking...I mean following! Viola for awhile now  And believe me, whenever I see your name up before I ever posted I'm screaming HIIIIIIIIIIII JOLIE!!!  hehe!


Ha Ha! Yep, this is a public board. So we have to watch what we say. Having said that, I hope I didn't scare you too much! Ha Ha!


----------



## ChelseaAuthorPromotions

Jolie, No problem  I'm used to being in public eye with all my pages/blog/facebook  So I'm not scared LOL!  Glad I came out from my little corner to say hello though!


----------



## OW

Not sure if I need to start a new thread for this, though will try it here first. 

Though I was wondering what Viola and everyone thought sold better in regards to Romance serials. Those containing fully descriptive steamy scenes, those without them or somewhere in the middle?

Can it be too clean or can it work just as well with no action at all?


----------



## OW

I'm just wondering how you guys approach the publishing territories. I'm currently published to US, UK and Australia. Are you all generally selecting all territories for this genre or just some?

Also, so sorry for asking so many questions, its my first steps in this genre so am tying to find my feet best way I can


----------



## CristinaRayne

OliviaW said:


> I'm just wondering how you guys approach the publishing territories. I'm currently published to US, UK and Australia. Are you all generally selecting all territories for this genre or just some?
> 
> Also, so sorry for asking so many questions, its my first steps in this genre so am tying to find my feet best way I can


My books are available worldwide. I've sold books to people in Denmark, Belgium, The Netherlands, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia - the list is endless, so there's definitely an audience everywhere for romance.


----------



## OW

CristinaRayne said:


> My books are available worldwide. I've sold books to people in Denmark, Belgium, The Netherlands, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia - the list is endless, so there's definitely an audience everywhere for romance.


Thanks Cristina, that's really helpful. So you'd definitely advise 'selecting all territories' rather than trying to gauge which ones the work is appropriate for?


----------



## Guest

OliviaW said:


> Thanks Cristina, that's really helpful. So you'd definitely advise 'selecting all territories' rather than trying to gauge which ones the work is appropriate for?


I select all territories too. So far I've sold in the US, the UK, Germany, France, Canada and Australia. I haven't sold in the other territories yet, but I'm watching.


----------



## BlairErotica

The only reason not to select all territories is that you are selling a different edition of the book in a market (although even another language edition isn't a conflict) or have some reason for not wanting the book to appear in that region. If it is offensive to the ruling party of some region, or such. Otherwise, the worst that happens is you sell nothing there and you gain visibility.


----------



## Pauline Creeden

It helps so much when people share their results  thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OW

BlairErotica said:


> The only reason not to select all territories is that you are selling a different edition of the book in a market (although even another language edition isn't a conflict) or have some reason for not wanting the book to appear in that region. If it is offensive to the ruling party of some region, or such. Otherwise, the worst that happens is you sell nothing there and you gain visibility.


This is the thing though Blair, when writing things more on the raunchy side, how do you know what will or will not be considered offensive? I asked in a another forum recently and it was suggested that it is Amazons concern so was just wondering what consideration people actually publishing material on the steamy side and beyond were putting into it - if at all necessary.


----------



## wtvr

Just bounce around Amazon's top 100 lists for a while and you'll see there's quite a variety out there. Then distribute worldwide, and let Amazon handle the censorship if there's going to be any.

You should know your genre inside and out, though, even if you're not set on global markets.


----------



## BlairErotica

OliviaW said:


> This is the thing though Blair, when writing things more on the raunchy side, how do you know what will or will not be considered offensive? I asked in a another forum recently and it was suggested that it is Amazons concern so was just wondering what consideration people actually publishing material on the steamy side and beyond were putting into it - if at all necessary.


I wasn't really thinking about that kind of offense. My books can offend people in almost every culture. I was thinking more of things like, if your story makes fun of the king of Thailand, and you show up there one day only to find yourself arrested on arrival. They take that very seriously. Other than that, if Amazon is willing to put it up, I'm happy.


----------



## Authorius

I noticed two pages back that people were talking about Vellum.  Did a little research on kb for "vellum".  So far all I'm getting is that it's supposed to make the file look "pretty".  Is it really worth $50 per book to make the interior file prettier?  Is that affecting anyone's sales?  I downloaded Vellum and played around, and it does look nicer, but I'm not sure that it makes such a difference that it's worth the extra time and money in the long run.  

Can anyone tell me, am I missing something?


----------



## Steve Voelker

I have used Vellum for one book (so far!), and I have to say, it is pretty slick. VERY user friendly. I'm sure you can get some pretty formatting without it, but not with so little effort. 
I have also used Scrivener, and while I LOVE Scrivener for writing, I found the ebook output a bit tedious, with way too much trial and error, and no way to see how the changes you made would affect the layout until you compiled the whole thing. 
Vellum, on the other hand, basically allows you to have a live preview open as you work, so you can see how everything is going to show up on a kindle screen. It also has handy presets to optimize your book for the major marketplaces.
I am VERY tech savvy. I don't doubt for a second that I could get the same level of results on another program. But I'd rather spend the time writing (or lurking here!).
As far as price goes, I think they have a sale that gives you the unlimited license for $250 right now. Since I used it on one stand alone title, and plan to use it on a six part serial, plus the bundle, I am already up to eight books, putting the price per book at around $31. And that will go down every time I use it, until it is negligible. 
To me, the price is great to save the time and headaches of doing it any other way.


----------



## pwtucker

Viola Rivard said:


> So far, ILVN has been a great promo and it stuck for two days, about 1600 downloads. Freebooksy is going on now and I think it's going to be another great promo.


Hi Viola - did you do the email blast or FB post with ILVN? Also, how did the Freebooksy go? Thanks!


----------



## pwtucker

Thanks for the quick response! One last question - why did you stagger the promo's, instead of piling them up on the same day?


----------



## Mahalo

Maybe we all should band together and agree to release anything over 10K at $2.99. Whattayasay?


----------



## D. Zollicoffer

My children's books are doing well, and I know I can live exclusively from their royalties. But I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket. 

So I plan on writing a romance serial, and a mystery one. 

But I have a few questions. Is it okay to focus on more than one romance, and turn it into a comedy? 

Basically what I'm envisioning is something like a sitcom with multiple couples. There would be a main one, but I don't want to focus on just one.

Bad idea? I could write a normal one, but straight up romance isn't my cup of tea, but I love romantic comedies.


----------



## Mahalo

VMた said:


> I'm not doing $.99 again.


I just started a new series and the first is at .99 which will probably end up permafree, and I just published the second today at $2.99. It is 13,000 words and I anticipate that I will probably get less sales at that price point, but, maybe not. I've raised the prices on a few of my other works and have been pleasantly surprised to see things even out after a week or so.


----------



## Mahalo

By the way, I purchased a promo with World Literary Cafe today for the first in my Bad Genie series. They just opened to erotica/steamy romance promos today. I will should get a confirmation in a day or two on what dates the promo will be and will post here on results.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer

Viola Rivard said:


> I'm gonna do a combination of 99 cents and $2.99. I feel like I've finally found a sweet spot for increasing income, increasing visibility, and satisfying (most) readers. As it stands, if I continue to push myself I could easily be doing six figures a month by mid-autumn. My focus now if just going to be increasing my word count and tweaking my writing style so that I have more plotting and less pantsing.
> 
> I don't know a lot about romantic comedies. The closest thing I can think of would be Molly Harper. She writes romance stories but with funny characters and scenarios. Then again, I don't read anything other than paranormal and historical romances, so I'm probably not the best to advise on this.


Six figures a month? 

Yeah, I think I would be safer with paranormal, but it would come across forced, or I'd end up copying the first two seasons of True Blood lol


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Six figures a month, Violia? 0.0 You need to start buying TV ads! Or I don't know what.


----------



## Authorius

Viola, thanks for taking the time to post that chart of your promo results.  It really hits home when you see the peaks on the chart.


----------



## wtvr

Go Viola Go!!


----------



## ricola

D. Zollicoffer said:


> Six figures a month?
> 
> Yeah, I think I would be safer with paranormal, but it would come across forced, or I'd end up copying the first two seasons of True Blood lol


Because Deborah Bladen and H. M. Ward aren't kicking everyone's rear end?

Anyhow, on pricing, the free/$.99/$2.99 with linked series works GREAT. Finish the series, bump book 2 to $2.99, put out omnibus at $3.99. You can do that at around 45k words, even, and 60k is more than enough.

I write long. I don't think I could write a full story in 45k that's really satisfying. My SHORT STORIES run 6-7k. And I'd doing some other things, strategy-wise, so I need some high-priced omnibuses in my inventory to use for that. Plus, $.99 versus $2.99 doesn't actually seem to affect my sales that much. For some people, it's a huge difference. For me...meh. I may run a very limited-term sale on my #2 book when I release #6 of my vampire, but that'd be it.


----------



## Charmaine

VMた said:


> Plus, $.99 versus $2.99 doesn't actually seem to affect my sales that much. For some people, it's a huge difference.


I've actually noticed that I think over 20,000-25,000 is the magic word count for $2.99 and not getting complaints/ affecting sales that much.


----------



## OW

Ana Munroe said:


> I just started a new series and the first is at .99 which will probably end up permafree, and I just published the second today at $2.99. It is 13,000 words and I anticipate that I will probably get less sales at that price point, but, maybe not. I've raised the prices on a few of my other works and have been pleasantly surprised to see things even out after a week or so.


I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with this Ana. As I have just started a new series too and plan to release the second instalment in the next few days. It will be over 10,000 words so this is food for thought for me. Particularly as Amazon suggested on their new tool that I sell the first one at $2.99, but I didn't.


----------



## OW

CristinaRayne said:


> I haven't quite got enough content out to say I've found my sweet spot yet. However, the one thing I absolutely will never do again is release anything less than 20K words. The serial haters love to let the world know how much they hate serials by 1-starring the heck out of my 10k Part One.  It's gotten to where I can't even advertise some places because the star rating has gotten too low.  Oh well, live and learn.


I've just checked out your 1* reviews and what's interesting is that they are mainly regarding the free book. Your second book which is paid for and roughly the same size seems to have received comparatively little criticism in regards to its length.

Just thinking out loud here, though from your reviews alone I can see the selection process is very different between paid and free downloads, therefore perhaps may be the nature of the beast where perma-free's are concerned. Should someone change their model based on this? Well that would depend on whether their goal was financial or critical gain and whether the financial/critical gain promos that low ratings prevented them, was higher than the financial/critical gain of having a perma-free kick off the series.

As someone who is starting out in romance serials, I would be interested to hear what differences you notice when changing your word counts.


----------



## Authorius

One could also draw the conclusion that the people who complain do so with the first book, and then never buy the second one. Which is a good thing. _Please_ don't keep buying books from an author who doesn't write in the genre/length/style that you like.

But yeah, those free books really do draw readers' ire. It's weird. It's kind of like handing a ham sandwich to a hungry man, and having him throw it on the ground and call you stingy for only putting two slices of ham on the sandwich. Hey man, it's a free sandwich. You wanted a free sandwich. It's a good sandwich. It's got cheese and pickles and mustard on it, just the way you said you like it. Why are you busting my chops over the number of ham slices? It's FREE. And if you don't like it, just don't eat it. You don't need to throw the darn thing on the ground and insult me because the free sandwich I made for you wasn't the perfect size.

Next time, I'm peeing on your sandwich.


----------



## wtvr

Authorius said:


> Next time, I'm peeing on your sandwich.


HA! Yes!


----------



## Mahalo

Olivia Wilson said:


> I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with this Ana. As I have just started a new series too and plan to release the second instalment in the next few days. It will be over 10,000 words so this is food for thought for me. Particularly as Amazon suggested on their new tool that I sell the first one at $2.99, but I didn't.


Ha...funny thing, I checked the beta price suggestion today when I uploaded a different cover for my new book and it suggested that I sell it at $.99. Yesterday it told me $2.99. Sooooo. Yeah. I might try in the middle and see where $1.99 gets me. Though I hear it is a dead zone, I have yet to give that price point a real try. Will give it a week or so and see.


----------



## OW

Ana Munroe said:


> Ha...funny thing, I checked the beta price suggestion today when I uploaded a different cover for my new book and it suggested that I sell it at $.99. Yesterday it told me $2.99. Sooooo. Yeah. I might try in the middle and see where $1.99 gets me. Though I hear it is a dead zone, I have yet to give that price point a real try. Will give it a week or so and see.


Same for me, but the other way around


----------



## Mahalo

MariePinkerton said:


> Hey, Ana! We're naughty Genie buddies!
> 
> The first episode in my serial has been out for two weeks now. It had a small burst of sales from friends the first few days, and has leveled out at about one sale a day. I don't plan on buying any advertising, at least not until the bundle is out. I've been active on my new Facebook account, and got posted on Book Release Daily. I've submitted to a couple other free advertising places, but I'm more concentrating on writing the next episode than marketing.
> 
> So, I'm not quite to six figure months, but I've recouped my investment.


Hi Marie! Love your genie cover!


----------



## Mylius Fox

Hello, I've been reading this thread with enthusiasm, and I have a quick question if anyone has the time.  
I'm at the drawing board now for a serial I'm going to go ahead with, and I see it basically half romance half erotica. Is it usually better in such a circumstance to categorize the serial as a romance, stipulating in the description of course that it's heavy on the explicit sex side, in order to benefit from better visibility?


----------



## Alexis Anne

L.R. Panda said:


> Hello, I've been reading this thread with enthusiasm, and I have a quick question if anyone has the time.
> I'm at the drawing board now for a serial I'm going to go ahead with, and I see it basically half romance half erotica. Is it usually better in such a circumstance to categorize the serial as a romance, stipulating in the description of course that it's heavy on the explicit sex side, in order to benefit from better visibility?


Great question! And if anyone has a definitive answer, I'd love to hear it. All I can tell you about is my experience. Both my books and my serial are erotic romance. Very steamy and explicit, but with a clear romantic story line. My books are categorized Romance>erotica (and contemporary) and my serial is categorized Romance>Contemporary (and short story). I specifically avoided anything "erotica" with the serial. I was experimenting to see if it made any difference at all. So far...it really hasn't. I try to be very clear in cover and blurb that my stories are filled with "the sex" and that they are very romantic.

So far the biggest complaint about sex has come from the book that is clearly categorized in erotic. There is no accounting for people's ability to understand anything. As long as you aren't treading into extreme fetishes or taboos, in my experience, it doesn't matter much how you categorize it, just as long as it is discoverable. Contemporary Romance is a very full category and charting there without a smaller sub-genre is hard. I'd concentrate more on finding a smaller and popular sub-genre and worry less about whether you fall into Romance or Erotica. Sounds like you'll be good either way.


----------



## Mylius Fox

Alexis Anne said:


> Great question! And if anyone has a definitive answer, I'd love to hear it. All I can tell you about is my experience. Both my books and my serial are erotic romance. Very steamy and explicit, but with a clear romantic story line. My books are categorized Romance>erotica (and contemporary) and my serial is categorized Romance>Contemporary (and short story). I specifically avoided anything "erotica" with the serial. I was experimenting to see if it made any difference at all. So far...it really hasn't. I try to be very clear in cover and blurb that my stories are filled with "the sex" and that they are very romantic.
> 
> So far the biggest complaint about sex has come from the book that is clearly categorized in erotic. There is no accounting for people's ability to understand anything. As long as you aren't treading into extreme fetishes or taboos, in my experience, it doesn't matter much how you categorize it, just as long as it is discoverable. Contemporary Romance is a very full category and charting there without a smaller sub-genre is hard. I'd concentrate more on finding a smaller and popular sub-genre and worry less about whether you fall into Romance or Erotica. Sounds like you'll be good either way.


Thanks, your post was a huge help!  So, if I get this right, being categorized as erotica isn't a way to not show up on searches, only erotica that is branded as, in one way or another, too extreme or risky, ends up not being visible?

So, say it was 70% erotica 30% romance (just a figure of speech, the numbers) - it wouldn't hamper sales to categorize it as erotica? I ask because I know that things typically considered romance can include a good deal of explicit sex, so I don't really know where the tipping point is in deciding to label it as one genre vs. the other. 

I suppose, as you say, a more important factor to consider is how full a particular category is, and gaming the system _that_ way as far as visibility is concerned. That was a great suggestion.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

So long as there is a love story and a happily ever after, you're safe as it can be considered erotic romance no matter how steamy it gets. The only trouble you will run into is if you don't give readers their HEA. Aside from that, you should be ok in romance with a steam warning. Straight up Erotica focuses on the sexual journey rather than the romance and doesn't require an HEA or even an HFN.


----------



## Guest

Viola Rivard said:


> Don't worry, it's no safer than any of the other genres. It just seems that way because myself and a lot of the authors who post in this thread write PNR. There are a lot of people who have found much bigger success in contemporary romance serials.


First, as I've told you before, congratulations on your success! 

Second, I think it's a mistake, and also sad, for people to try and go out and *copy you* due to your fast success. Obviously, you've seen a lot of authors trying to write what you write.

Many authors who don't write what you write, but who focus on long-term strategies, eventually pull in what they want to make every month. But humans are so impatient that they want everything yesterday. Then, when it doesn't happen right away, they complain.

Authors with patience and persistence can do very well, also.


----------



## Alexis Anne

Chrisbwritin said:


> So long as there is a love story and a happily ever after, you're safe as it can be considered erotic romance no matter how steamy it gets. The only trouble you will run into is if you don't give readers their HEA. Aside from that, you should be ok in romance with a steam warning. Straight up Erotica focuses on the sexual journey rather than the romance and doesn't require an HEA or even an HFN.





Chrisbwritin said:


> So long as there is a love story and a happily ever after, you're safe as it can be considered erotic romance no matter how steamy it gets. The only trouble you will run into is if you don't give readers their HEA. Aside from that, you should be ok in romance with a steam warning. Straight up Erotica focuses on the sexual journey rather than the romance and doesn't require an HEA or even an HFN.


Christine makes a very good point. I always assume when someone says "Romance" they also mean HEA/HFN, and that was my mistake. When deciding where your serial falls, make sure you keep audience in mind. Romance readers expect the happy ending and will not be happy if it isn't there--no matter how much steam is involved. Even my own husband (who reads erotica and romance) is hounding me to make sure my serial has the HEA (as in, waking me up at night to plead his case for the characters!). So yeah, romance readers are passionate about their love stories. If you aren't going to have much love story and no HEA, then don't put it in romance.


----------



## Mylius Fox

Alexis Anne said:


> Christine makes a very good point. I always assume when someone says "Romance" they also mean HEA/HFN, and that was my mistake. When deciding where your serial falls, make sure you keep audience in mind. Romance readers expect the happy ending and will not be happy if it isn't there--no matter how much steam is involved. Even my own husband (who reads erotica and romance) is hounding me to make sure my serial has the HEA (as in, waking me up at night to plead his case for the characters!). So yeah, romance readers are passionate about their love stories. If you aren't going to have much love story and no HEA, then don't put it in romance.


Cool; thanks a million for the follow-up, 'cause that really clarified every unsettled issue in my brain. 
My idea includes a_ lot_ of romance, and a strong HEA element (it's the overarching plot question across all the planned "seasons"), so I think I'll be fine with this.


----------



## Irish Mint

Do you guys think KU will affect Romance serials? I just feel that romance readers would be the first to subscribe to KU en masse. Will this kill the perma-free method?

Why did this have to happen just as I was about to release my first serial


----------



## wtvr

I have a bknights promo on monday for my permafree. Glad I'm only investing $5 in that. But permafree has been climbing steadily and the sell-throughs are just starting now (72 hours later, as predicted on this board).

It will take a while for KU to ramp up and really show us the results. I think permafree is still a legit strategy for now.


----------



## OW

LisaGloria said:


> I have a bknights promo on monday for my permafree. Glad I'm only investing $5 in that. But permafree has been climbing steadily and the sell-throughs are just starting now (72 hours later, as predicted on this board).
> 
> It will take a while for KU to ramp up and really show us the results. I think permafree is still a legit strategy for now.


Out of interest Lisa (only if you wouldn't mind sharing of course), what was your first pais instalment selling before permafree and what is your paid second instalment selling now since the first went permafree. I have the first part of a serial out and am about to launch the second and the plan was to go permafree on the first, so am wondering about other peoples experiences.

I am also wondering if Kindle unlimited is going to be a game changer for that strategy. I wonder if anyone has any experience of having their first or subsequent parts in there instead of perma free?


----------



## wtvr

Olivia Wilson said:


> Out of interest Lisa (only if you wouldn't mind sharing of course), what was your first pais instalment selling before permafree and what is your paid second instalment selling now since the first went permafree. I have the first part of a serial out and am about to launch the second and the plan was to go permafree on the first, so am wondering about other peoples experiences.


OH! I didn't mean to ignore you. I couldn't find this post again after I read it the first time. The answer is: who the heck knows. I am new and making <10 sales a day right now. My data is too tiny to inform anything. But here it is: Before permafree, nada. Permafree in 2.5 days. In 3 days since permafree, 900 downloads, 14 sales to book 2. Working on book 3. My KU serial (episode 1 released yesterday) is 3 whole dl so far. Rockin ma world. 

Viola, love your attitude about the copiers. Life's too short to worry about a bad facsimile. You go.  Can't wait to hear about your KU experiences.


----------



## LBrent

It'll be very interesting to see how this KU program pans out.

I'm watching and trying to keep an open mind about it all.


----------



## BlairErotica

VMた said:


> Of course, you can't put your bundles anywhere else (if you're bundling), but you don't HAVE to put them in Select. I would strongly recommend that if anyone goes select to keep all bundles at more than $2.99 out of it.


I assume you mean if the stories in the bundle are in Select individually Otherwise, why can't you put bundles everywhere?


----------



## OW

LisaGloria said:


> OH! I didn't mean to ignore you. I couldn't find this post again after I read it the first time. The answer is: who the heck knows. I am new and making <10 sales a day right now. My data is too tiny to inform anything. But here it is: Before permafree, nada. Permafree in 2.5 days. In 3 days since permafree, 900 downloads, 14 sales to book 2. Working on book 3. My KU serial (episode 1 released yesterday) is 3 whole dl so far. Rockin ma world.
> 
> Viola, love your attitude about the copiers. Life's too short to worry about a bad facsimile. You go.  Can't wait to hear about your KU experiences.


I've had part 1 out for about 10 days now and am averaging just under two a day. I'm dragging my heels a bit on getting the second part out and really need to get a move on I think. I have a few serials in draft form and was thinking of sticking one in select to test out KU.


----------



## OW

How soon is too soon do we all think, in regards to 'action'. I have a couple in the first part of a romance serial who get it (in detail) on virtually right away. I'm just wondering if this is too soon?


----------



## Chrisbwritin

That really depends. Is it romance or erotica? Do the H/h know one another or have a pre-existing relationship? You can get away with a lot if they already know one another. You can also get away with it if it's meant to be a one night thing but then they kind of can't stay away from each other after that or something. Lots of ways that early sex can work. I think the concern with this format is that romance readers realllllly like to be teased. The build of tension and then the pay off is something steamy romance readers are very drawn to. So, if it was me, I would make sure you build the tension afterward in order to draw them back in. The tension has to be pull AND push. I want you. NO I DON'T! 

Short answer, though? Yes.


----------



## OW

Chrisbwritin said:


> That really depends. Is it romance or erotica? Do the H/h know one another or have a pre-existing relationship? You can get away with a lot if they already know one another. You can also get away with it if it's meant to be a one night thing but then they kind of can't stay away from each other after that or something. Lots of ways that early sex can work. I think the concern with this format is that romance readers realllllly like to be teased. The build of tension and then the pay off is something steamy romance readers are very drawn to. So, if it was me, I would make sure you build the tension afterward in order to draw them back in. The tension has to be pull AND push. I want you. NO I DON'T!
> 
> Short answer, though? Yes.


Hmmmnnn, its meant to be a romance with steam and its not meant to necessarily me a one off thing, though she is on holiday, meets him on the first day, go for a drink later and do the deed. There is more to the story than that due to other things going on in her life. Yes there is toing and froing later in the story, though since it seems they just go out then go home together with nothing in between. I'm new to the genre and still learning the way things are done.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

If you're new to the genre, I would suggest looking into how romance plots are typically structured. This isn't to say that you HAVE to do it this way, just that this is what most romance readers are used to seeing as far as a story arc. Here's a good explanation on beat sheets (this blog is also a good source for other craft related topics). http://jamigold.com/2012/11/write-romance-get-your-beat-sheet-here/


----------



## OW

Thanks that's really helpful, I'll take a look. It's not the romance side of things themselves I worry about, but the steam factor as its that sort of content I'm new to. I was debating if them getting together so quickly and descriptively pushed it more into the erotic side of things, though then the story is more about their romantic relationship so...

Though I do tend to doubt my work for various reasons, perhaps this is just something for me to get anxious about. I always used Betas for my other genres, which helps to iron out doubts. Though due to the very nature of the recruiting Betas I am reluctant to engage them for work like this.


----------



## 69959

I've been following this thread, on the fence about giving this whole serialized romance thing a try. KU has me thinking about it again. I have a ton of other books to write, having two open series and starting a new one. Do I really want to add a contemporary romance serial into the mix? I could always try one "season" and see how it goes. I do have that much outlined already.


----------



## Madison Johns

VMた said:


> She's a USA Today bestseller with an established fanbase.
> 
> Paranormal romance isn't the cash cow people keep thinking it is. It's no easier to make money in than mystery or science fiction or fantasy. If you are looking for a quick buck, it came and went. Briteka's right. Most of the people who jumped on the BBW were bandwagon--which was super "hot"--are selling less than 10 a day at $.99. And that's before the 30-day cliff.
> 
> People are taking off in EVERY genre like Viola did. At least one a month, some writer somewhere does something that really resonates, and BAM! It's not the genre. It's that Viola's a good writer, she positioned savvily....AND the stars also aligned.


I've said many time before that sometimes you get lucky. I wrote a good story and all sales are good sales. They all add up. I now have people wanting me to write follow up stories and I'd rather move on to a different set of characters. I learned a lot from writing the serial. I should have amped up the action in the second book and made it longer that it was. It seemed rushed to readers and I felt that way too. The problem is that when you're trying to do a monthly release you feel pressured to get that next book out. I had another writer who told me she writes them as long as she wants and does the break where it's more reasonable to do so. Book three was 33,000 words so for the three books it's around 77,000 words total. I would never have made it that far without doing the serial because my sweet spot is 50,000 words. You can't write a paranormal romance that is plot heavy with so few words, or at least I couldn't. Book 3 was raised to $2.99 after the first two days of its release. SO initially I thought or hoped I could make more of a splash, but I did make one because my first book lit up over on Barnes and Noble. Of all my books, it made the most money for me. I'm now back to my mysteries for a bit and trying the paranormal mystery that I touched on with one book early last year. I'll then be pushing on to my next serial.


----------



## OW

Ok so I'm almost ready to release Part 2 of a serial. Given the change of play over the last few days I was wondering in all of your professional opinions, which of the following options do you think would be potentially be most profitable strategy for me at this moment?

Option A
Release Part 2 for 0.99 when it's ready, then go perma free on Part 1.

or

Option B
Put Part 1 in select (unlimited) now and put Part 2 as soon when it's released.

Thanks


----------



## OW

Olivia Wilson said:


> I'm not sure if I should start a new thread for this or not. though will ask here first as this is such a great thread - thanks Viola
> 
> Ok so I'm almost ready to release Part 2 of a serial. Given the change of play over the last few days I was wondering in all of your professional opinions, which of the following options do you think would be potentially be most profitable strategy for me at this moment?
> 
> Option A
> Release Part 2 for 0.99 when it's ready, then go perma free on Part 1.
> 
> or
> 
> Option B
> Put Part 1 in select (unlimited) now and put Part 2 as soon when it's released.
> 
> Thanks


----------



## Charmaine

Olivia Wilson said:


> Ok so I'm almost ready to release Part 2 of a serial. Given the change of play over the last few days I was wondering in all of your professional opinions, which of the following options do you think would be potentially be most profitable strategy for me at this moment?
> 
> Option A
> Release Part 2 for 0.99 when it's ready, then go perma free on Part 1.
> 
> or
> 
> Option B
> Put Part 1 in select (unlimited) now and put Part 2 as soon when it's released.
> 
> Thanks


I'm going to do a serial, just for KU, but I'm not putting book 1 in KU.
It's going to be permafree.
I think for most authors starting out, the power of free can't be underestimated.
But, I think for _serial_ authors, permafree is even _more_ important.


----------



## Marie Long

I think my reason for not liking serials is that authors have not been doing it right. From some of the ones I've read, all they do is write an entire book and chop it up into x-amount of pages and sell it, calling it a 'serial'. That is NOT a serial!! I can tell when a book's been chopped up. I think most readers can. Chopping up a book IMO is cheating. Serials are usually meant to be ongoing (and by the time it's done, it'd most likely be MUCH longer than a standard 300-page novel), each installment pretty much a story (or short story) in itself with its own conflicts. There could be a 'to be continued' at the end, though many readers (especially romance readers) may have a problem with cliffhangers. Even TV serials have HFN endings, but there may be some loose ends that had not been tied up yet, which would help drive the plot for the next episode. But still, the audience is satisfied enough of the ending and will stay tuned for the next episode to see if that loose end gets tied.


----------



## Justawriter

Charmaine said:


> I'm going to do a serial, just for KU, but I'm not putting book 1 in KU.
> It's going to be permafree.
> I think for most authors starting out, the power of free can't be underestimated.
> But, I think for _serial_ authors, permafree is even _more_ important.


I think this is a good strategy. When I first saw this mentioned, I wondered if it was wise to have follow-up books in KU if book one is available everywhere. But, I did a survey in a reader group I am in and though the sample size is small, the results were interesting. Out of about 40 people who replied, all but 3 read on the Kindle and two of those three that have a Nook or Kobo as their primary device, also have the Kindle app so they can read on both. That was encouraging as it shows that it may be possible to reach people on other platforms and keep them them reading followup books via the Kindle app. It's not ideal of course, but it's an interesting option.


----------



## Marie Long

PamelaKelley said:


> I think this is a good strategy. When I first saw this mentioned, I wondered if it was wise to have follow-up books in KU if book one is available everywhere. But, I did a survey in a reader group I am in and though the sample size is small, the results were interesting. Out of about 40 people who replied, all but 3 read on the Kindle and two of those three that have a Nook or Kobo as their primary device, also have the Kindle app so they can read on both. That was encouraging as it shows that it may be possible to reach people on other platforms and keep them them reading followup books via the Kindle app. It's not ideal of course, but it's an interesting option.


This is not the first time I've seen this sort of marketing strategy mentioned here, and I still don't understand the reasoning for doing it. Putting a free book out on multiple platforms, and the subsequent books on an exclusive platform is like dangling a carrot to readers who don't have access to or use that exclusive platform. At least for me, I would feel very turned off by this, if I use Nook, and the only way to read the other books in the series is on the Kindle.


----------



## Noelle Stevens

PamelaKelley said:


> I think this is a good strategy. When I first saw this mentioned, I wondered if it was wise to have follow-up books in KU if book one is available everywhere. But, I did a survey in a reader group I am in and though the sample size is small, the results were interesting. Out of about 40 people who replied, all but 3 read on the Kindle and two of those three that have a Nook or Kobo as their primary device, also have the Kindle app so they can read on both. That was encouraging as it shows that it may be possible to reach people on other platforms and keep them them reading followup books via the Kindle app. It's not ideal of course, but it's an interesting option.


This is the strategy I've decided to use as well. The first book is permafree and available at Apple and B&N as well as Amazon, but the rest of the series is only in KU. I'm keeping the bundle out of KU. I just put parts 2-4 in KU on Sunday night. I had 4 borrows yesterday, and the usual number of paid sales. So far so good!


----------



## Charmaine

Marie Long said:


> This is not the first time I've seen this sort of marketing strategy mentioned here, and I still don't understand the reasoning for doing it. Putting a free book out on multiple platforms, and the subsequent books on an exclusive platform is like dangling a carrot to readers who don't have access to or use that exclusive platform. At least for me, I would feel very turned off by this, if I use Nook, and the only way to read the other books in the series is on the Kindle.


I understand the dangling carrot thing, which is why I've tried to minimize it as much as possible.
When I do go permafree, the only other place I'm going to list it is on Googleplay.
Amazon matches them quickly and most readers are on a mobile device, that will probably have a kindle app.
Not only that, but the books will be released out of Select after a 3 month period, which is when I will put them and my permafree on sites like Nook, Kobo, itunes, etc.

PS. You are preaching to the choir about what is a true serial.
I did a long post on it on another thread 
I keep wondering if I shouldn't drop it on here too.
In case some people would like to read it


----------



## Marie Long

Charmaine said:


> I understand the dangling carrot thing, which is why I've tried to minimize it as much as possible.
> When I do go permafree, the only other place I'm going to list it is on Googleplay.
> Amazon matches them quickly and most readers are on a mobile device, that will probably have a kindle app.
> Not only that, but the books will be released out of Select after a 3 month period, which is when I will put them and my permafree on sites like Nook, Kobo, itunes, etc.
> 
> PS. You are preaching to the choir about what is a true serial.
> I did a long post on it on another thread
> I keep wondering if I shouldn't drop it on here too.
> In case some people would like to read it


I personally know people who don't shop on Amazon. They don't even have Amazon accounts for whatever reason. Even with a kindle app on their phone or computer, it would be inconvenient for them to have to sign up for a new account just to get a book.
I don't know if Googleplay/Google Books is accessible to those who do not have an Android device. Might be something worth looking into.
Either way, I feel like you're limiting your audience in a big way. Either release the series on Kindle only, or everywhere. That's just my opinion.

I would love to read your post on serials, too. I just felt the need to express my concern and pet peeve about them. I would totally be a huge fan of them and read them voraciously if authors would get the concept of serials right.


----------



## Charmaine

*The difference between a Novel cut into pieces and a serial* 

Serial structure has a different rising and falling action sequence from a Novel.
For example, A novel follows the course of rising action over the story and then it peaks in the middle and falls to a conclusion
-Hero is searching for magic ring (rising) -> 
-Meets band of friends (rising) -> 
-Confrontations along the way (rising) ->
-Final confrontation with villain (Peak) -> 
-Wins (falling) ->
-Glory for All (End)
A Novel follows a pyramid shape with its action.

Serial Structure is a different beast.
It starts with rising AND ends with rising. 
An episode of a Serial follows a line that constantly ascends. Think of it like the first half of the pyramid. 
Start with a bang and end with a bang, _especially_ for episode 2 and on.

For example, to use the same idea (magic ring) as a Serial:
-Hero is searching for magic ring (rising) ->
-Meets band of friends (rising) -> 
-_*Small*_ Confrontation with villain *BUT a NEW Problem Arises* (rising) -> 
-**Mini-plot resolved**
-*Wins for NOW (small victory didn't get ring) regrouping how to deal with setback, Now stakes are Higher* (rising)

Can you cut off after the first confrontation in the NOVEL and make it episode 1?
Sure, But it won't be a true Serial.
*For it to be a true Serial, there has to be a mini-plot in ALL the episodes.
Something HAS to be accomplished, it just isn't the MAIN goal.*

Maybe, in the Serial Version of this story, Hero's brother is missing. 
They don't get the ring, but now they know where to find the brother.
Searching for the brother was the mini-plot and now they know where to find him, but he's being held prisoner by a snake king! AND they still can't save the kingdom until they get that magic ring (<overall arc)

*Essentially, Serials are made by their mini-plots.
Or to think of it in a different way, think: How can my Hero ONLY win for NOW?*


----------



## OW

Thanks everyone.

So this is really interesting, from what you are all saying it seems the best strategy at this moment in time is a third option, a combination of the two. 

Option C
Release Part 2, set Part 1 to perma-free then put Part 2 into Select (Unlimited).

Is that correct?


----------



## Charmaine

VMた said:


> One thing I'd add--the hero doesn't have to "win" the little ones. He can lose or apparently lose them. My vampire is win - win...maybe? - lose - win - holy crap - win . In my werewolf, they over come things, but they steadily get worse:
> 
> - win...but are discovered
> - win....but are stranded with no vehicle and no shoes
> - win...but their entire plan is bust
> - win--actually win!
> - except that you soon find out they screwed up royally, and now they've escaped by the skin of their teet
> - win! really win!


You're totally right 
That reminds me of something I read about why Indiana Jones was considered a hero even though he failed at everything.
It was because he failed so spectacularly and never gave up


----------



## AnyaWrites

VMた said:


> One thing I'd add--the hero doesn't have to "win" the little ones. He can lose or apparently lose them. My vampire is win - win...maybe? - lose - win - holy crap - win . In my werewolf, they over come things, but they steadily get worse:
> 
> - win...but are discovered
> - win....but are stranded with no vehicle and no shoes
> - win...but their entire plan is bust
> - win--actually win!
> - except that you soon find out they screwed up royally, and now they've escaped by the skin of their teeth
> - win! really win!


Great point! There is definitely an art to getting people to continue to read a serial. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Carradee

One of my side WiPs is a serial that'll be a UF/thriller hybrid. Have the first episode 100% drafted, and much of the second. So far, I seem to be following a pattern of "Eeep!…Whew…*solving of immediate problem + progress toward resolving the elephant in the room*…oh, CRAP!"

Plan is to have the entire thing drafted before I start publishing.


----------



## jamielakenovels

Hi Viola, I've read every single post in this thread and from what I read, this is your formula for serial romance:

Pick a genre with an audience open to serial.
Create a serial where each "episode" is a self-contained story but include sweeping long-term story arcs too.
Price it perma-free  first episode and the others priced competitively in a tiered model.
Put all your books all across different platforms (not just KDP Select)
Promote the heck out of the perma-free first episode.

Anything else?


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

VMた said:


> That one doesn't actually have much of a cliffhanger, if any, though. That's the funny thing!
> 
> I'm going to cliffhangers for my next serial. Cliffhangers that will have people screaming. I lose readers between releases--some follow through, but some just forget about the book. Once the book is OUT, I see no difference in the readthrough rate. But without a cliffhanger, the initial jump is lower.


Sorry VM. Your second Vampire has a HUGE cliffhanger. I don't know how you're going to top that.


----------



## Authorius

Hey, can you guys give me an opinion on something?  I'm sure there's a thread on this, but I'd like the perspective of Viola and others with successful serials, rather than just throw the question out to WC at large. 

I just tried putting one of my books in select, and I'm considering doing a promo.  I'm torn between free and countdown.  I know I can do freebooksy and other places if I do a free promo, but I also know so many people whose free periods were a dud, so I'm curious to give countdown a try.  It's so stupid that we can't split the days and do both.  I don't know if anyone has seen serials in particular doing better with one vs. the other, but I thought I'd ask.


----------



## Silly Writer

Authorius said:


> Hey, can you guys give me an opinion on something? I'm sure there's a thread on this, but I'd like the perspective of Viola and others with successful serials, rather than just throw the question out to WC at large.
> 
> I just tried putting one of my books in select, and I'm considering doing a promo. I'm torn between free and countdown. I know I can do freebooksy and other places if I do a free promo, but I also know so many people whose free periods were a dud, so I'm curious to give countdown a try. It's so stupid that we can't split the days and do both. I don't know if anyone has seen serials in particular doing better with one vs. the other, but I thought I'd ask.


From my HOURS of research, it appears Free works better on first in a series, while Countdown works better on subsequent books. Hope that helps


----------



## Madison Johns

I did want to do a little update. My paranormal romance serial bundle was accepted by BookBub for August. I was really surprised, but I have monthly ads on there so I've probably proven myself, but when it comes to them it's a crap shot. Took me four times to get in the first time. One thing that might have helped possibly was I told them while my set didn't have that many reviews, each book had plenty.


----------



## megadams

Long time lurker, first time poster 

Just wanted to say thankyou for this thread - it's so interesting and informative.  I'm considering writing a serial in the future, so learning all I can in the interim.  Thanks for sharing your experiences!


----------



## Authorius

L.L. Akers said:


> From my HOURS of research, it appears Free works better on first in a series, while Countdown works better on subsequent books. Hope that helps


It does! Thanks.  Makes sense, too.


----------



## OW

Has anyone's sales on first instalments stopped. Mines had been consistent since release nearly two weeks ago. Then just stopped suddenly three days ago. Has anyone else experienced this?

I'm hoping they will start back up again after part 2 is released.


----------



## X. Aratare

Olivia Wilson said:


> Has anyone's sales on first instalments stopped. Mines had been consistent since release nearly two weeks ago. Then just stopped suddenly three days ago. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> I'm hoping they will start back up again after part 2 is released.


You aren't alone. My manga books, which have consistently sold have suddenly stopped three days ago two. I stared at the graph and was like: omg, what's happening here.


----------



## Twizzlers

Olivia Wilson said:


> Has anyone's sales on first instalments stopped. Mines had been consistent since release nearly two weeks ago. Then just stopped suddenly three days ago. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> I'm hoping they will start back up again after part 2 is released.


My sales have absolutely died over the last three days. Like panic levels of dropping.


----------



## OW

I feel for you both. What do you think is going on and what can we do about it.

I'm sitting at 0 across the board, complete standstill. I have another instalment set to put out and other serials in draft though is making me rethink my whole strategy


----------



## Twizzlers

Olivia Wilson said:


> I feel for you both. What do you think is going on and what can we do about it.
> 
> I'm sitting at 0 across the board, complete standstill. I have another instalment set to put out and other serials in draft though is making me rethink my whole strategy


Well I'm in the midst of a long series that includes four three part serials and a final book. I already have the first serial out and the first part of the second is due out the first week of August.

So I'm just going to keep releasing and hope for the best. I'll collect the first three books at that time too and release that.


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm pretty much dead. I haven't had any zero days yet, but I have a lot of titles out. It is upsetting how far down everything has fallen, but I did finally release something new and put one of my titles in Select. That has helped a little. All I can do is focus on putting out more work. I think this will level out eventually. Personally, I'm downloading the more expensive trad books I wouldn't normally buy. I also have a bit of "too many options" overwhelm. I have a feeling most readers are doing and feeling the same. I don't think the future can be based off the present. I think that eventually, serialization will become even more popular just because of the nature of KU. The trad book I'm reading right now is good, but it's really long and dense. I wish about 1/3 of the filler scenes were just cut out. My own feeling is that now is a time to write and publish as fast as you can. After Christmas, KU will probably explode. It will be good to have out as many titles as possible by then. I also think permafree is a viable course for first books. KU still doesn't offer any viability. You get a handful of free days but that doesn't keep you on the free bestseller lists. Free plus KU might be the best option for the long run.


----------



## Twizzlers

That's all you can do is publish and hope the craziness of the last few days is due to all the kinks with KU getting worked out. Hope that things go back to normal next month.


----------



## Guest

J Ryan you are King and your only challenge is to produce even faster than you already are (which is bloody fast). Don't rely on backlist series for sales, always think about the next series being the one that wrecks the charts. It's not just KU, competition is increasing in this genre, and you gotta be one step ahead.


----------



## Twizzlers

I have 13 releases planned between now and the end of the years. Basically each serial part is released 2 weeks apart with a three week break in between each serial.


----------



## Redacted1111

Jeeze, I wish I could get back on a schedule like that. I haven't released anything for two months. I stopped writing serials and started writing novels, then my kid stopped napping. That all culminated in being completely stuck. I haven't had anything really break out, but I've had some good months with decent money. For authors like me, it has to be a high volume thing. I have never counted on being a break out success. But my volume has suffered a lot recently. If I could just push through the stay at home mom motivation barrier, I'd be doing a lot better. But my kid interrupts me every few minutes. It just isn't conducive to writing. I need to figure out how to work through those interruptions and keep working. It's so depressing because right now I just can't. This KU thing has given me back some drive, so I hope it lasts.


----------



## Authorius

Wow, J Ryan, how many words are your serials?  Twice a month is impressive.



Since I see so many people here with standstill sales, I'm feeling a little less panicked.  Mine have really dropped, and one new book is going nowhere.  But then again, I panic with each new release.    I can't seem to stop it.  I'm just reminding myself that it could be a glitch, or something.  God willing, I'll have a big dump of sales in a few days, and it was all just a lag.  A girl can dream!


----------



## Twizzlers

Authorius said:


> Wow, J Ryan, how many words are your serials? Twice a month is impressive.
> 
> Since I see so many people here with standstill sales, I'm feeling a little less panicked. Mine have really dropped, and one new book is going nowhere. But then again, I panic with each new release.  I can't seem to stop it. I'm just reminding myself that it could be a glitch, or something. God willing, I'll have a big dump of sales in a few days, and it was all just a lag. A girl can dream!


I have the same feeling, but I'm watching my ranking steadily drop and my also-boughts go away.

My serials are 16,000-20,000 words.


----------



## Guest

J Ryan said:


> I have 13 releases planned between now and the end of the years. Basically each serial part is released 2 weeks apart with a three week break in between each serial.


That sounds pretty awesome. Between now and December you'll have a hell of a lot more product out. The more you have out, the less effect these KU type sand-shifts will have on you. And of course if it gets crazy bad (because people on your seller lists are killing because of borrows) you can always switch to their model. I wouldn't do that though based on what you have so far. Some people seem super confident the borrow rate will be around $2 but I'm a huge skeptic about that.


----------



## Twizzlers

ShaneJeffery said:


> That sounds pretty awesome. Between now and December you'll have a hell of a lot more product out. The more you have out, the less effect these KU type sand-shifts will have on you. And of course if it gets crazy bad (because people on your seller lists are killing because of borrows) you can always switch to their model. I wouldn't do that though based on what you have so far. Some people seem super confident the borrow rate will be around $2 but I'm a huge skeptic about that.


I don't plan on it right now because my serials are all connected into one series with one overarching plot. I'd be yanking it away from people with only a 1/4 of the story finished if I went exclusive at this point.

I do plan on experimenting with some Amazon Only serials after I finish these.

All I can do is try to keep up the pace I've set for myself and hope the creative fountain in my brain doesn't just dry up.


----------



## CristinaRayne

J Ryan said:


> My sales have absolutely died over the last three days. Like panic levels of dropping.


While I can't say my sales have died, they've definitely been cut nearly in half ever since KU rolled out.  My rankings have taken a major dive, especially in the last couple of days. KU really seems to be wrecking major havoc with the algorithms and also-boughts. I can only hope that things start to even out once this first initial rush of free KU subscriptions subsides next month and we'll be able to see A) how many people will actually pay for a subscription and B) How much we'll be paid per borrow. Before KU, I hadn't planned on releasing another serial just yet as I'm currently working on a new PNR novel series I was hoping to roll out by the end of next month and finishing up the last of a 2-part novella serial in my Elven King universe. Now that this very large wrench has been thrown into my plans, I may have to rethink releasing that new serial a little earlier, especially if my sales continue to take a dive.


----------



## Twizzlers

Jessie Donovan said:


> It's paid, albeit at $0.99. I was just happy to earn back my cover, editing, and ISBN costs.  I had no idea what was successful, so this thread has been extremely helpful!


I think you have to judge what success is to you. Most authors don't earn that stuff back or get that many sales on a first book from what I can tell. I could be wrong, I'm still so new at this too. That's just what I get from reading threads around here.


----------



## Redacted1111

I have a new book out but I haven't mailed my list because I'm going to make it free asap. Is it better to mail the list once it goes free so that my fans don't get disgruntled when it does? Anyone have a similar experience?


----------



## OW

I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


----------



## Redacted1111

Olivia Wilson said:


> I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


I use my husband's business address. I should probably get a PO Box but I'm lazy.


----------



## Andie

If you're going free ASAP then I would wait to email them. They're likely your most loyal readers, and it might strike them as shady to get them to buy it and then make it free the next day.


----------



## Twizzlers

Olivia Wilson said:


> I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


My address is the McDonald's down the street.


----------



## wtvr

J Ryan said:


> My address is the McDonald's down the street.


Me too. More or less.


----------



## Redacted1111

Andie said:


> If you're going free ASAP then I would wait to email them. They're likely your most loyal readers, and it might strike them as shady to get them to buy it and then make it free the next day.


It might take a few days, but still, I'm setting in free asap. I don't want to mail them and then it go free soon after. I'd like the sales bump but still. I don't have a lot of ppl on my list in the first place and I almost feel like just giving it to them free anyway.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Olivia Wilson said:


> I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


I use a PO Box for this.


----------



## Ava

Olivia Wilson said:


> I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


You should check out Campaign Monitor. Unlike Mail Chimp there's no free tier, you start out paying $9/mo, but they're based in Australia (?) which doesn't have the law about an address being necessary.


----------



## Navigator

J Ryan said:


> My address is the McDonald's down the street.


I should do this when it's time to create my mailing list.


----------



## OW

J Ryan said:


> My address is the McDonald's down the street.


Ooh is it ok legally to do this, it wouldn't actually be breaking any laws?

I know it must be or it wouldn't have been said, though I thought I remembered reading something somewhere about them asking for the address to comply with some law or something.


----------



## OW

CristinaRayne said:


> I use a PO Box for this.


Problem with that is that it's registered to your address which anyone has access to, so is not really that much different to using your own address.

I have no real reason not to use my address, I just don't like the idea of it.


----------



## Charmaine

Olivia Wilson said:


> Problem with that is that it's registered to your address which anyone has access to, so is not really that much different to using your own address.
> 
> I have no real reason not to use my address, I just don't like the idea of it.


You can also use the address of the post office where you have your PO box


----------



## Josey Alden

Here's an update on my serialized romance progress. I began publishing the first serial in April 2014. This week, both of my five-part serials are fully published, with a bundled version available for each. My first serial has a rockstar theme, and the second is BBW/shapeshifter (werewolf). The BBW/shapeshifter free downloads are _much_ higher than the rockstar, but the paid sales are closer together. I have used bknights (Fiverr) and Bargain Booksy. I play around on Facebook.

*Edited to add* ... Each book in the Rock Your World serial is 20,000 words, for a total of 100,000 for the bundle. Each book in A Wolf's Obsession is 15,000 words, for a total of 75,000 words for the bundle.

These stats are as of July 24, 2014.

*Total Across Retailers*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: *8*
Paid Sales: *114*
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: *5,200+*
Paid Sales: *710*

*Amazon*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 88
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: 4,300+
Paid Sales: 559

*Apple*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: 8
Paid Sales: 0
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: 163
Paid Sales: 25

*All Romance Ebooks*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 22
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: 730
Paid Sales: 68

*B&N*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 4
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 54

*Kobo*
_June 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 0
_July 2014_
Free Downloads: 0
Paid Sales: 4


----------



## OW

Well done Josie  are these stats for all books combined?


----------



## Josey Alden

Olivia Wilson said:


> Well done Josie  are these stats for all books combined?


Thank you. Yes, the stats are combined. I would have made an even bigger mess if I'd tried to separate sales by title. 

My purpose in reporting my numbers is to help show different patterns of sales growth over time. Now, let's hope my sales keep growing!


----------



## OW

So you've not suffered any decline in the last three to four days then?


----------



## Josey Alden

Olivia Wilson said:


> So you've not suffered any decline in the last three to four days then?


In the last week, my low was 37 sales in one day and my high was 65. I had a dip on 7/22 that was probably a KU effect, but I bounced back the next day.


----------



## Madison Johns

Good job Josey! Sales going up and up is a good thing.


----------



## ricola

Olivia Wilson said:


> I know I need to start a mailing list, its publicising an address so openly which puts me off.


If you go to a UPS store to get a box, they don't give out your address the way the post office will.

I use my registered agent's address, which I paid an extra $99 for for mail forwarding and to use the address as my company's registered address.


----------



## Miss Library

Olivia Wilson said:


> Problem with that is that it's registered to your address which anyone has access to, so is not really that much different to using your own address.
> 
> I have no real reason not to use my address, I just don't like the idea of it.


I see you've started a blog. You could add a Feedburner email sign up there. Just direct traffic to your site and ask people to sign up for updates that you could post for blog posts. Feedburner would email them every time a new post was made and there would be no address.


----------



## OW

Thanks V.M & Miss Library I'll give one of those a go.

On a separate issue, does any one else notice that these titles take longer to publish than others? All my non steamy books seem to go live within a few hours, though my romance serial instalments seem to take 24 hours or more. I'm waiting for an instalment to go live now, has been 12 hours and is still just in the review stage. Same with D2D.


----------



## Authorius

We'll miss you Viola!

My new novella series is starting out selling slow.  Sssllloooooowwwww.  Trying not to freak out.  But so slow.  Someone, quick, tell me how their series exploded after they had 3-5 books out, and I shouldn't worry.


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

Olivia Wilson said:


> On a separate issue, does any one else notice that these titles take longer to publish than others? All my non steamy books seem to go live within a few hours, though my romance serial instalments seem to take 24 hours or more. I'm waiting for an instalment to go live now, has been 12 hours and is still just in the review stage. Same with D2D.


I submitted Part Two of my serial to D2D early last week (for Apple) and it's *still* processing. Sigh. I hope it goes through by Friday...Kobo is taking a long time too!


----------



## CristinaRayne

Olivia Wilson said:


> On a separate issue, does any one else notice that these titles take longer to publish than others? All my non steamy books seem to go live within a few hours, though my romance serial instalments seem to take 24 hours or more. I'm waiting for an instalment to go live now, has been 12 hours and is still just in the review stage. Same with D2D.


The last 2 I published on Amazon took almost 24 hours to go live when all the rest had taken 6-8 hours, so it's possible. I haven't published anything non-romance lately so I don't really have anything to compare. We'll see how it goes when I publish my New Urban Fantasy in about a month or so.


----------



## Miss Library

Jessie Donovan said:


> I submitted Part Two of my dragon-shifter serial to D2D early last week (for Apple) and it's *still* processing. Sigh. I hope it goes through by Friday...Kobo is taking a long time too!


I just had something published to Apple this evening that I submitted on July 15. (Non-fiction)


----------



## Josey Alden

Authorius said:


> We'll miss you Viola!
> 
> My new novella series is starting out selling slow. Sssllloooooowwwww. Trying not to freak out. But so slow. Someone, quick, tell me how their series exploded after they had 3-5 books out, and I shouldn't worry.


Don't freak out. Write the next book. Write the next series. Tell yourself that you're not allowed to check your sales again until you've written 1,000 words. Very few people shoot to the top right away. The rest of us have to give ourselves a little time.


----------



## Kenzi

Do you guys think smaller-sized serials would be worth the bother? I'm under contract with a publisher for anything over 7500 words (yes, I regret signing it), so I was thinking of starting a serial that consists of 7499 words (roughly!) each installment. But after reading through this thread, it doesn't seem like most readers want to pay for anything under 20k-ish. 

It's really frustrating, having your hands tied like this. (PSA: Negotiate your contracts, folks!)


----------



## Charmaine

Kenzi said:


> Do you guys think smaller-sized serials would be worth the bother? I'm under contract with a publisher for anything over 7500 words (yes, I regret signing it), so I was thinking of starting a serial that consists of 7499 words (roughly!) each installment. But after reading through this thread, it doesn't seem like most readers want to pay for anything under 20k-ish.
> 
> It's really frustrating, having your hands tied like this. (PSA: Negotiate your contracts, folks!)


I'm not sure about a market for serials that short.
Would it be against your contract to bundle them?
Like say 10- 7500 word serials bundled as a season 1?
As long as they are labeled as separate and you offer them as separate. 
Could you sell a bundle of 10 serial shorts?
I think that would sell, or even a 5 book bundle.
Not sure of the legalities with your contract and bundling, but it may be a loophole and something to have a lawyer look over


----------



## J. Tanner

Olivia Wilson said:


> Ooh is it ok legally to do this, it wouldn't actually be breaking any laws?
> 
> I know it must be or it wouldn't have been said, though I thought I remembered reading something somewhere about them asking for the address to comply with some law or something.


It's illegal.

It's unlikely to ever be enforced but if someone does it looks (from the legislation, note IANAL) like you shouldn't be on the hook for more than 2 million dollars in fines plus legal fees and no more than a year of imprisonment. So nothing to worry about. 



Ava said:


> You should check out Campaign Monitor. Unlike Mail Chimp there's no free tier, you start out paying $9/mo, but they're based in Australia (?) which doesn't have the law about an address being necessary.


IANAL, but my understanding is that the law applies to you if you're in the US and the location and feature set of your mail service is not relevant.


----------



## Kenzi

MariePinkerton said:


> Kenzi, who is your contract with? That's a heck of a rights grab. Does it just cover the one name, where you can publish other stuff under a different name?
> 
> If you haven't sent your contract to Writer's Beware, I'd highly recommend it. That's the kind of thing they like to be aware of.


It's the digital-first imprint of a publisher. Unfortunately, it covers all romance genres except YA and sweet/inspy. I had a contract with the print side of the publisher first and basically just went along with my agent's recommendation to sign the digital-first contract. (She's no longer my agent, for other reasons, and I'm still angry with myself for being so dumb, but alas...)

I could try my hand at regular fantasy or YA, but those really aren't my thing. I can't imagine trying to build a career on something I don't enjoy writing.



Charmaine said:


> I'm not sure about a market for serials that short.
> Would it be against your contract to bundle them?
> Like say 10- 7500 word serials bundled as a season 1?
> As long as they are labeled as separate and you offer them as separate.
> Could you sell a bundle of 10 serial shorts?
> I think that would sell, or even a 5 book bundle.
> Not sure of the legalities with your contract and bundling, but it may be a loophole and something to have a lawyer look over


That's a good question. I'll have to go through the contract to see if there's anything about bundling.


----------



## X. Aratare

Kenzi said:


> It's the digital-first imprint of a publisher. Unfortunately, it covers all romance genres except YA and sweet/inspy. I had a contract with the print side of the publisher first and basically just went along with my agent's recommendation to sign the digital-first contract. (She's no longer my agent, for other reasons, and I'm still angry with myself for being so dumb, but alas...)
> 
> I could try my hand at regular fantasy or YA, but those really aren't my thing. I can't imagine trying to build a career on something I don't enjoy writing.
> 
> That's a good question. I'll have to go through the contract to see if there's anything about bundling.


Kenzi - maybe you've already done this, but SERIOUSLY get a lawyer to look at that contract and see if you can't get out of it. Never being allowed to write over 7500 in romance for ANY PENNAME EVER is insane and I'm wondering if it would stand up in court. I was a lawyer in another life, but I'm NOT giving legal advice, CYA. But seriously this smells.


----------



## BlairErotica

Kenzi said:


> It's the digital-first imprint of a publisher. Unfortunately, it covers all romance genres except YA and sweet/inspy. I had a contract with the print side of the publisher first and basically just went along with my agent's recommendation to sign the digital-first contract. (She's no longer my agent, for other reasons, and I'm still angry with myself for being so dumb, but alas...)
> 
> I could try my hand at regular fantasy or YA, but those really aren't my thing. I can't imagine trying to build a career on something I don't enjoy writing.
> 
> That's a good question. I'll have to go through the contract to see if there's anything about bundling.


How long is that clause in effect Is this say, for the rest of your life? Usually those are for a certain number of works or period of time...


----------



## OW

Ok so Part 2 is going live on Amazon as I type and have just noticed Part 1 is live on Nook (B&N). 
Problem is I have is the Nook listing is missing the description, this concerns me as it's a steamy book. There is an age warning in the front matter though someone would have to download it to see it and I'd rather it didn't get that far. I submitted through D2D and the description is clearly there and on the other listings.

I couldn't leave it so have emailed and delisted the book. Looks as though the book doesn't come down straight away though, any advice please?


----------



## CristinaRayne

Olivia Wilson said:


> Ok so Part 2 is going live on Amazon as I type and have just noticed Part 1 is live on Nook (B&N).
> Problem is I have is the Nook listing is missing the description, this concerns me as it's a steamy book. There is an age warning in the front matter though someone would have to download it to see it and I'd rather it didn't get that far. I submitted through D2D and the description is clearly there and on the other listings.
> 
> I couldn't leave it so have emailed and delisted the book. Looks as though the book doesn't come down straight away though, any advice please?


I've noticed that it takes at _least_ a week for the description to show up after the book goes live to B&N. Just like Amazon, they publish your book in stages - for example, it may take a few hours or a day for your "Look Inside" feature to show up after your book goes live in Amazon. Recently I had a problem with a book's description on B&N and emailed them. I was shocked when they actually replied and fixed the issue within 24 hours, so you might try that approach.


----------



## Madison Johns

Olivia Wilson said:


> Ok so Part 2 is going live on Amazon as I type and have just noticed Part 1 is live on Nook (B&N).
> Problem is I have is the Nook listing is missing the description, this concerns me as it's a steamy book. There is an age warning in the front matter though someone would have to download it to see it and I'd rather it didn't get that far. I submitted through D2D and the description is clearly there and on the other listings.
> 
> I couldn't leave it so have emailed and delisted the book. Looks as though the book doesn't come down straight away though, any advice please?


I was told things are published in parts from D2D to B&N. If you check it early on it might be missing one or two things. With me it's been the cover or description. I'm not sure how many sales you expected to have before it would really make a difference. I understand your concern, and personally I have never noticed if a description was missing or not with any of my books before. Good luck!


----------



## OW

CristinaRayne said:


> I've noticed that it takes at _least_ a week for the description to show up after the book goes live to B&N. Just like Amazon, they publish your book in stages - for example, it may take a few hours or a day for your "Look Inside" feature to show up after your book goes live in Amazon. Recently I had a problem with a book's description on B&N and emailed them. I was shocked when they actually replied and fixed the issue within 24 hours, so you might try that approach.


E-mail them direct? Even though I submitted through D2D can I do that? I emailed D2D straight away though haven't had a reply. I also delisted straight away though the book is still on the nook sight, with no description. I'm so glad I put a warning in the front matter and maybe the cover gives it away a bit, but still I'm not comfortable with it and if it's usual practice, I think I'll leave the B&N box unticked for this type of work in future.


----------



## OW

Madison Johns said:


> I was told things are published in parts from D2D to B&N. If you check it early on it might be missing one or two things. With me it's been the cover or description. I'm not sure how many sales you expected to have before it would really make a difference. I understand your concern, and personally I have never noticed if a description was missing or not with any of my books before. Good luck!


Hmmmn, well I've done all I can do so fingers crossed it gets sorted soon. Lesson learned for me I think.

On a better note I'm now free on Kobo so can try and get perma free on Amazon. Not sure if I can post a link here or not, so if anyone would like to help me get free on Amazon let me know and I'll post it


----------



## Authorius

Kenzi said:


> I could try my hand at regular fantasy or YA, but those really aren't my thing. I can't imagine trying to build a career on something I don't enjoy writing.


I think if you got creative enough, you could make the YA or sweet story into whatever you want it to be. For example, if you like writing steamy paranormals, you just make it a steamy paranormal with a heroine that is 17 1/2.

Or, if you like writing romantic suspense, try writing a regular suspense/thriller with romantic elements instead. All you'd need to do is switch the sub-plot and plot (make the crime the focus, and the romance a sub-plot). And then on top of it, use a new pen name. Then you've thwarted them twice; they don't know that Jane Author is you, and if they find out, they can't sue you because it's not a genre covered in the contract. It might not be the ideal solution, but at least you could make some money in the short term, while you wait out the contract.


----------



## Authorius

Josey Alden said:


> Don't freak out. Write the next book. Write the next series. Tell yourself that you're not allowed to check your sales again until you've written 1,000 words. Very few people shoot to the top right away. The rest of us have to give ourselves a little time.


Sorry for not answering, Josey, I didn't see your response. I know you're right, I just need to relax. I'm still writing like crazy. The books are taking off now, just slower than some of my other series did, so I'm driving myself crazy. If I become the next big thing, I'll still be doing the same thing, but I'll be worrying because I'll be _only_ in the bottom half of the top 100. First world problems.


----------



## Navigator

Summer Aarons said:


> I've started a pen name for trying this out and I have some questions about pen names. I've already set up a twitter and free blog; I will set up an email list soon. I have questions about pen names. Does anyone have advice or a good thread to point me toward? I searched Kboards and couldn't find anything newer than 2011.


What is it that you'd like to know?


----------



## Navigator

Summer Aarons said:


> Where to begin?  How many social media sites should I bother joining? I don't want to spend all day on social media between two pen names. I'm also not sure about telling my current fan base about the new pen name. Also, how to go about finding new beta readers. I'm sure more questions will come up... I don't know how people manage tons of pen names!


I still haven't released my trilogy, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

In regards to social media, this is really up to you. I've got Twitter and a Tumblr blog, and that's as far as I'm willing to go, aside from the mailing list I need to fix. I can't stand Facebook, and prefer the user friendliness of Tumblr over Wordpress. You can also have multiple blogs under just one Tumblr account name, and switching between them is very easy. So having one account with two or more pen names would be easy to manage.

If you're worried about it being a time suck, put aside an hour every day just for your social media. Morning, afternoon, evening, whichever works best for you.

I found a wonderful beta reader over at Fiverr and she's been a great help so far. Use the search function of this forum to find more, I recall seeing a thread or two about beta and/or proofreading.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Summer Aarons said:


> I'm also not sure about telling my current fan base about the new pen name.


I do the opposite. I've told my PNR/Fantasy Romance pen name fan base the name I write my Urban/Epic fantasies under. It's led to a lot of crossover sales.


----------



## Josey Alden

VMた said:


> I'm on Facebook (page & profile), twitter, instagram, pinterest, google plus (page and profile), and tumblr. I'm using all but the last 3 heavily.
> 
> Is my new picture pretty?


Gorgeous, love!


----------



## Redacted1111

I really like Tumblr. I find it super fun. I'm not commenting on the pic. Although, it's right on the tip of my tongue.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Kalypsō said:


> I'm not commenting on the pic. Although, it's right on the tip of my tongue.


----------



## Navigator

VMた said:


> I'm on Facebook (page & profile), twitter, instagram, pinterest, google plus (page and profile), and tumblr. I'm using all but the last 3 heavily.
> 
> Is my new picture pretty?


It's perfect. 

I'm actually using my twitter more than my blog right now.


----------



## Redacted1111

Sigh. So much humor and sarcasm potential wasted on the forum tonight. I guess I have to go write about aliens now.


----------



## wtvr

Did one of the dogs eat the cheerleader??


----------



## Shelley K

Kalypsō said:


> Sigh. So much humor and sarcasm potential wasted on the forum tonight. I guess I have to go write about aliens now.


Take heart! There's probably at least, oh, I don't know, six of us who get it.


----------



## ElleT

LOL. You girls are sooo bad!


----------



## Redacted1111

VMた said:


> I hope they at least have adventurous shenanigans in multiples.


No one gets it on with the aliens. They're the bad guys. But maybe the next set of protags will be polyamorous. I can see it now, polyamorous dragon shifters and a plucky witch. Money!

But really, I should go write because it looks like my dogs could be popular. Fingers crossed.


----------



## ElleT

Oh, hell. She's got my series!


----------



## Guest

LisaGloria said:


> Did one of the dogs eat the cheerleader??


LOL!


----------



## Navigator

Kalypsō said:


> Sigh. So much humor and sarcasm potential wasted on the forum tonight. I guess I have to go write about aliens now.


Will there be six of them?


----------



## Josey Alden

I have a Freebooksy feature scheduled for tomorrow (8/2). I'm excited! I ran a Bargainbooksy feature several weeks ago, and I was pleased with the results. Sales didn't explode, but the ad paid for itself and gave the book a nice boost afterward. I'll report back.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Josey Alden said:


> I have a Freebooksy feature scheduled for tomorrow (8/2). I'm excited! I ran a Bargainbooksy feature several weeks ago, and I was pleased with the results. Sales didn't explode, but the ad paid for itself and gave the book a nice boost afterward. I'll report back.


Me too!


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

VMた said:


> No shifter. Just dragon.
> 
> No comment.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Venom-Book-Dragon-Temple/dp/0451460790/


Is it wrong that I find myself intrigued by the sample.

*is weird*


----------



## wtvr

lol I got sucked into the Pleasure Tube on the Also Vieweds
http://www.amazon.com/The-Pleasure-Tube-Robert-Onopa/dp/0425039412/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1KGK258HAEKVJS1V8RB0

Yes. Sucked into the pleasure tube. Whoosh.


----------



## NoCat

I totally bought that dragon book. I couldn't help it. It's like when someone passes around a drink at a party with the line "oh god, this tastes awful!"...


----------



## Jacqueline_Sweet

I bought the dragon book for the same reason. I think I saw a post on I09 about crazy sex scenes in fantasy books and Touched By Venom was mentioned as one of the squickier, crazier dragon sex books.


----------



## Jason Halstead

The furry porn serial I worked on with my wife just saw the last part released a couple of days ago. I started releasing them in May, with a release mostly every 2- 4 weeks apart (depending on when the covers and editing was available).

May: $175 (turned book 1 free from $.99 after the second one came out)
June: $950 (4 of 6 parts released, 3 paid for at $.99)
July: $1150 (all 6 parts out, although part 6 was near the end of the month - also this is unofficial numbers)

We are working on a prequel that will be a single book in the 30k - 40k word range, plan to price that at $2.99 then move ahead with more books in the future that may or may not be serials. The money is there and it's good, but I feel like I'm screwing the readers over by writing them that way. Especially when my sci-fi and fantasy novels are in the 50k - 150k word range. Whatever the case, I'm a firm believer in giving the first book in a series (or serial) at a discount or, preferably, free.


----------



## Jason Halstead

CristinaRayne said:


> While I can't say my sales have died, they've definitely been cut nearly in half ever since KU rolled out.  My rankings have taken a major dive, especially in the last couple of days. KU really seems to be wrecking major havoc with the algorithms and also-boughts. I can only hope that things start to even out once this first initial rush of free KU subscriptions subsides next month and we'll be able to see A) how many people will actually pay for a subscription and B) How much we'll be paid per borrow. Before KU, I hadn't planned on releasing another serial just yet as I'm currently working on a new PNR novel series I was hoping to roll out by the end of next month and finishing up the last of a 2-part novella serial in my Elven King universe. Now that this very large wrench has been thrown into my plans, I may have to rethink releasing that new serial a little earlier, especially if my sales continue to take a dive.


No kidding? I haven't noticed a thing change since KU came out (and I'm not in KDP Select or KU). If anything, my sales have perked up a little. Then again, I've just released a couple of books too, so that helped.


----------



## justagirl

EelKat said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> plus the six dog sarcasm was aimed at me, not Viola, - it was in response to my post on how much money I was making writing Monster Porn, which was posted on another thread about 20 minutes before the cheerleaders showed up - *sigh* I had mentioned that M/M/M/M/M/M/M/f aka 7 alpha gangbangs with 7 monsters vs 1 human sell better and for more money, than human on human sex and that of all my monsters the Dog Demons attract the most readers. It was my response to what kind of Erotica was making the most money. The person I was answering had asked about making money writing BDSM and my response was that if they wanted to write for money, then Monster Porn was where the money was because we can charge $2.99 for flash fiction and $4.99 for short stories and $8.99 for novellas and people still buy it no matter what price we put on it. Plus we can pump out a lot of titles fast because it sells well at only 3k to 5k words, so I write lots of 3k to 5k Monster Porn and sell it for $2.99. (The cheerleading dogs happened when someone went looking for my pennames after that, but got their link wrong, because my Erotica doesn't have humans on the covers and I write Medieval not contemporary, so the cheerleaders wouldn't have been in it unless it was time travel - but I do write Time Travel Monster Porn, so, eh...) Apparently my recommendation p*ssed some people off. *sigh* Can't please everybody. Their 50k a month was a misquote, what I said was I was making $140k/yr right now and at the rate I release new titles vs the rate of sales, I'll likely be earning 500k within 2 years. That's only 41k a month. They think I'll make 50k a month though, so hey, I'll take that too! LOL! Oh well, laughs my way to the bank in my pink Rolls Royce and goes back to writing Overflowing For the Selkies, Taken By FarDarrigs, and Dog Demons of the North.


Eelkat (or anyone else) have you noticed if monster -romance- still gets some of the same treatment? I'm developing a series based on animal bridegroom fairy/folk tales - they'll have lots of plot and storyline, but also lots of monster sex scenes, so...

But I don't know that I could actually advertise them as erotica, because they wouldn't be.

Anyone else do monster romance?


----------



## OW

Has some smart person out there worked out an average percentage for the amount of perma free downloads turning to paid after sales on sequels please?


----------



## OW

lala said:


> It varies. Some people see as high as 25% and others 2%. You'll just have to wait it out for a few more days. With your permafrees ranking, I think you'll see some nice sales in a day or two. Congrats on the success!


Thanks Lala  Gee I hope so, though nothings happening yet.


----------



## wtvr

It seems to peak about 72 hours later, I think...


----------



## CristinaRayne

I just had a Freebooksy ad run on Sat ($50 option). What I really liked about the service was that they, like Bookbub, add links for B&N, Apple, and Kobo too. The first part of my serial has been permafree since May and I was still able to crack the top 100 overall free list in Kindle and my downloads are still triple what they were on Fri. My sales and rankings took a major dive after KU debuted and now they're back to pre-KU levels.  As for B&N and Apple, I was shocked to see that my downloads quadrupled over the weekend in both stores and the buy-throughs are also picking up steam. I don't have Kobo's numbers yet, but I'm hoping for at least a few downloads. Finally! I've been trying to find a way to gain more traction in those stores, and I'm so pleased with what Freebooksy has done so far. It was definitely worth the price. I may try the $100 option with a future title as I've heard good things about it as well.


----------



## Justawriter

CristinaRayne said:


> I just had a Freebooksy ad run on Sat ($50 option). What I really liked about the service was that they, like Bookbub, add links for B&N, Apple, and Kobo too. The first part of my serial has been permafree since May and I was still able to crack the top 100 overall free list in Kindle and my downloads are still triple what they were on Fri. My sales and rankings took a major dive after KU debuted and now they're back to pre-KU levels.  As for B&N and Apple, I was shocked to see that my downloads quadrupled over the weekend in both stores and the buy-throughs are also picking up steam. I don't have Kobo's numbers yet, but I'm hoping for at least a few downloads. Finally! I've been trying to find a way to gain more traction in those stores, and I'm so pleased with what Freebooksy has done so far. It was definitely worth the price. I may try the $100 option with a future title as I've heard good things about it as well.


Christina, how many downloads did you get for that? I've only done the $100 package and have wondered about the $50 one. Glad to hear it worked well for you.


----------



## CristinaRayne

PamelaKelley said:


> Christina, how many downloads did you get for that? I've only done the $100 package and have wondered about the $50 one. Glad to hear it worked well for you.


On Amazon, just shy of 2000, 600 extra on Sun. On Apple, a little over 400. B&N 150. Since you've done a $100 ad, is there a significant difference?


----------



## Justawriter

CristinaRayne said:


> On Amazon, just shy of 2000, 600 extra on Sun. On Apple, a little over 400. B&N 150. Since you've done a $100 ad, is there a significant difference?


It's hard to say, I think it just depends on timing and genre. When I did it it was at the tail end of a BookBub week and I had a ton of downloads for that and wanted to go back to free at a high ranking if possible, but it had already been really visible for 2-3 weeks. I got just over 3k. I suspect if it was earlier in the campaign, pre-BB, it might have been higher.


----------



## Charmaine

Summer Aarons said:


> I know this has nothing to do with any of the fun discussions going on now (  ) but what word count is about 100 pages? I noticed that a lot of HM Ward's books (all priced 2.99) are about 115 pages. I assume that's because of BookBub's requirements. I'd like to try my serial like that, but need to know what word count to shoot for. I'm guessing about 35-40k. Does that sound about right?


You'll get many different wordcount/page, but I think Amazon clocks in at about 285 words/page.
So a 100 page book is about 28,500 words.


----------



## Chrisbwritin

Charmaine said:


> You'll get many different wordcount/page, but I think Amazon clocks in at about 285 words/page.
> So a 100 page book is about 28,500 words.


This jives with my serial as well. 25k plus backmatter etc = about 85 pages


----------



## Madison Johns

Charmaine said:


> You'll get many different wordcount/page, but I think Amazon clocks in at about 285 words/page.
> So a 100 page book is about 28,500 words.


Not sure because they have my 33,000 word novella at 95 pages. They do it different all the time. I've had novels over 150 pages saying they were 142 pages. Book Sends tried to tell me my 157 page book was only 42,000 words. Huh, no. That's like 54,000. Book Sends are basically idiots. I gave up on them. They tell me my book isn't long enough at 157 pages and the next week I see books with less words. Meh.


----------



## AssanaBanana

CristinaRayne said:


> I just had a Freebooksy ad run on Sat ($50 option). What I really liked about the service was that they, like Bookbub, add links for B&N, Apple, and Kobo too. The first part of my serial has been permafree since May and I was still able to crack the top 100 overall free list in Kindle and my downloads are still triple what they were on Fri. My sales and rankings took a major dive after KU debuted and now they're back to pre-KU levels.  As for B&N and Apple, I was shocked to see that my downloads quadrupled over the weekend in both stores and the buy-throughs are also picking up steam. I don't have Kobo's numbers yet, but I'm hoping for at least a few downloads. Finally! I've been trying to find a way to gain more traction in those stores, and I'm so pleased with what Freebooksy has done so far. It was definitely worth the price. I may try the $100 option with a future title as I've heard good things about it as well.


I noticed a similar slump after KU debuted. But now most of my books are in Select and are selling better.

I had my first free promo period for my first book in Select, and took advantage of it with a $100 Freebooksy promo. The first day downloads just broke 1500, but the subsequent sales of my box set (a paid title) pushed my author rank to the top 100 of the Erotica category. That was a nice treat.

My sales of my two books that aren't in Select are pretty abysmal on the other stores, but they're trucking along just fine on Amazon. Whether I stick with Select will depend on how much the borrows end up paying out, but so far my sales are doing well enough thanks to the rank bumps I'm getting from borrows.


----------



## Andie

I have a novel just under 80k showing as 201 pages on Amazon. It's all over the place.


----------



## Silly Writer

I have a 82,000 word novel at 274 pages in print. If you put it in print, Kindle will use that page count. It all depends on your margins, spacing, etc., as to how long your print will come out to.


----------



## megadams

I was wondering about pagecounts/length too. Starting to see writers put wordcounts and in some cases estimating how long it will take to read in the description. I think it's a good idea and may help with negative reviews bc a book isn't long enough to suit readers. Assuming they read the description of course


----------



## Madison Johns

I know for me I like to be honest since those print books usually are longer. If you do the print first it makes your books look longer than they are, which works good if you want to do a BookBub ad. I'll make sure I report back how my BB ad does on the 15th. I'm not sure what to expect.


----------



## Silly Writer

Madison Johns said:


> I know for me I like to be honest since those print books usually are longer. If you do the print first it makes your books look longer than they are, which works good if you want to do a BookBub ad. I'll make sure I report back how my BB ad does on the 15th. I'm not sure what to expect.


I do my ebook first, and then my prints. I don't include a line between paragraphs, and I use 12 pt font. Typical paperback size (same as Nora Roberts 100th, lol). Mine are as honest as they can be. If anything, they're shorter in paperback, because I don't include all the back-matter that's included on an ebook, and I don't include the first chapter of the next book, as I do on the ebook either.

Could be the ebook IS actually longer (the pages are definitely smaller, thus I assume more pages to scroll through on ebook.) So, maybe I shot myself in the foot by making the print shorter. I really don't know.


----------



## Guest

JessePearle said:


> I had my first free promo period for my first book in Select, and took advantage of it with a $100 Freebooksy promo. The first day downloads just broke 1500, but the subsequent sales of my box set (a paid title) pushed my author rank to the top 100 of the Erotica category. That was a nice treat.


Interesting. I have a $100 Freebooksy promo coming up soon.


----------



## Maria Romana

megadams said:


> I was wondering about pagecounts/length too. Starting to see writers put wordcounts and in some cases estimating how long it will take to read in the description. I think it's a good idea and may help with negative reviews bc a book isn't long enough to suit readers. Assuming they read the description of course


YES! This has helped me a lot. I was getting a lot of those "I hate serials, and this is a serial" -type one-star reviews on _Little Miss Straight Lace_, even though it's about 65K words and doesn't really end on a cliffhanger. Sigh. I finally put a few lines in the description (actually "from the author") about the length in words AND pages, and I've not gotten any one or two star reviews since. It did decrease the rate of downloads, though hard to separate from general summer slowdown and KU and all, but I'd rather that than have all these haters leaving bad reviews.


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Jessie Donovan said:


> This is because HM Ward has print copies of her books. As soon as you have a print copy through Createspace, the Kindle version's page count updates too.  I noticed this for my full-length novels. Before the print book, the page count was 288 pages for an 84k book. After the Createspace book was out and linked, it changed to 356 pages!
> 
> So, technically, you can up your page count by putting out a paperback. But I have ZERO time for that when it comes to my serial, lol. (For the bundle, of course I'll do it as I have fans already asking for a paperback!)
> 
> And I love the stat sharing, so here's my first month's totals:
> 
> Release dates:
> Sacrificed to the Dragon: Part One --> July 10th
> Part Two --> July 30th
> 
> Amazon: $379.46 / 1189 copies
> ARe: $174.05 / 293 copies
> B&N: $50.80 / 127 copies
> Kobo: $5.56 / 12 copies
> iTunes: $ 4.04 / 8 copies
> 
> So most of the month was with just Part One. I haven't done a loss leader yet because Part One is still selling over a hundred copies a day at the moment. We'll see how it goes, however. Kobo and iTunes aren't doing that well so far. ARe has surprised me, although sales have slowed down there and picked up at Amazon. I'm not going to complain.
> 
> There are the usual amount of reviews saying each part is too short, but I did notice that once I put "Part One (of Four)" in bold at the top of the description, the lower reviews mostly stopped. If you know how many parts you'll have, it might be worth trying!


 What kind of promotion are you doing on Part One to get those numbers, Jessie?


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Awesome advice!


----------



## Sarah M

You may have to play with book size and margins, etc. My book is listed at 188 pages and it's 76K, but I have the interior pretty compact and the size is 6x9. (I'm going to fix that. Some day.)

Jessie Donovan, who did your covers? Those are fantastic.


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

SBright said:


> Jessie Donovan, who did your covers? Those are fantastic.


Due to a little recent craziness, I deleted my cover designer's name.


----------



## Sarah M

Jessie Donovan said:


> They're by the very talented Clarissa Yeo of http://yocladesigns.com/. I love her! I can't wait, because she's redoing my old series too.


Clarissa is awesome. <3


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

J Ryan said:


> It just shows permafree still works to drive sales for the next two books. I don't know if I'll ever not make the first part of a serial permafree at this point.


I'm not against permafree, but it doesn't yet make financial sense for me to use it.  I'm glad it's working so well for you, though!


----------



## Madison Johns

Jessie Donovan said:


> I'm not against permafree, but it doesn't yet make financial sense for me to use it.  I'm glad it's working so well for you, though!


If your first book sells that well it makes not absolute sense to give it away. I did free for a while, but it really didn't help my other books sell. I marked it back up and it started selling better. It's my bestseller over at B&N. You have a great serial Jessie and I do believe people like dragons so that can't hurt. Just because so many authors have done well with a loss leader doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit. We each need to make the right decisions for us. Congrats on your success Jessie!


----------



## NerdyWriter

Jessie, you should take down the cover. Reveal it closer to your release date. It's sad to say, but there are those who steal concepts and ideas. You will learn a lot people are looking for an edge and they see your sells and want to duplicate it for themselves.


----------



## Lehane

GregFigueroa said:


> Jessie, you should take down the cover. Reveal it closer to your release date. It's sad to say, but there are those who steal concepts and ideas. You will learn a lot people are looking for an edge and they see your sells and want to duplicate it for themselves.


Not that I don't think you're right, but I'm not sure in this case it will make a huge difference, unless someone opts to steal her title (which *would* be a real shame). I love the shifter romance genre to bits, but I'm not sure one could "steal" the "beautiful people caress in front of a wolf" concept. That is really the root of the genre, and is quite a bit of that out there.

And I want there to be MORE. [distant cackle]

(Not that I'd blame you, Jessie, for removing it. It is a stunning cover, it seems Clarissa has a way with this genre. Excuse me while I quietly add it to my list of future purchases.)


----------



## pagegirl

> I made over 6 grand at Amazon last month. I guarantee as many people wouldn't have known who I was or bought my books if they didn't have the first free.


That's incredible! I'd kill right about for even half that many sales and my recent medical bill would appreciate it too 

I'm curious though for those of you that have had successful perma-free serial when you notice the carry over in sales start. The first in my serial just went free yesterday (on US site) and I only have the second in the serial out but am working getting on the third done. I'm just wondering when I might start to see a trickle of sales... Should I have already seen it even in just a day. Will it take months? Until the readers finally read the first and decide whether to continue. I think I'm just nervous it won't help and so I'm trying to get a time frame as to when I can definitively say whether perma-free is working for me or not.


----------



## CristinaRayne

pagegirl said:


> I'm curious though for those of you that have had successful perma-free serial when you notice the carry over in sales start. The first in my serial just went free yesterday (on US site) and I only have the second in the serial out but am working getting on the third done. I'm just wondering when I might start to see a trickle of sales... Should I have already seen it even in just a day. Will it take months? Until the readers finally read the first and decide whether to continue. I think I'm just nervous it won't help and so I'm trying to get a time frame as to when I can definitively say whether perma-free is working for me or not.


This is one of those questions that don't really have one true answer. I permafreed Part One of my serial the day I released Part Two and had a couple of thousand downloads of Part One that first day with about a 25% immediate sell-through to the second. However, I know of a few authors that started out slow and whose sales exploded after a few weeks, usually after being picked up by a few of the sites like OHFB that advertise freebies, so the time-frame is really subjective. You can also jump start things by buying a promo with one of the cheaper places like a $5 ad with BKnights on Fiverr or eBookSoda if your downloads aren't where you would like them. I think it was yesterday, but EelKat posted a huge list on advertising site links on one of the threads you might want to check out.

Good luck!


----------



## Kenzi

What do you all think about this strategy Hugh Howey lays out? Do you think releasing the first few in the serial at once and then the next a few weeks later could build momentum? Or would it do the opposite?


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

Lehane said:


> Not that I don't think you're right, but I'm not sure in this case it will make a huge difference, unless someone opts to steal her title (which *would* be a real shame). I love the shifter romance genre to bits, but I'm not sure one could "steal" the "beautiful people caress in front of a wolf" concept. That is really the root of the genre, and is quite a bit of that out there.
> 
> And I want there to be MORE. [distant cackle]


Haha, the love of shifter readers always amazes me, lol. But yeah, pretty much all of the shifter books have an animal and at least a hot guy. I decided to add a couple. 



> (Not that I'd blame you, Jessie, for removing it. It is a stunning cover, it seems Clarissa has a way with this genre. Excuse me while I quietly add it to my list of future purchases.)


Ah, thanks! <3 Now, back to editing this monster, er, wolf? Beast? Anyhoo, I'm going to stop procrastinating now...


----------



## NerdyWriter

Jessie Donovan said:


> Well, it's public on my author FB page, in various groups, and on Goodreads. It's also going on my website later today. So I don't really see how taking it down would make a difference.  And it's the first in the series, so I'm hoping it sells, lol. I'm not a big name author. Yet.


True, I can't handle so many different groups to keep up with. You are a workhorse.


----------



## OW

Regarding this model:
Book #1 Free
Book #2 99¢
Subsequent Books $2.

What are the general opinions regarding words counts in the 3rd book onwards. Is there a general lower limits considered acceptable or realistic for that price. Or perhaps more specifically, is there generally  an expected amount of increase amount in word count between Book 2 - Book 3?


----------



## wtvr

It depends.   I would say, go sift through also-boughts in your genre, take a look at the prices, reviews, and page lengths and see what works for everybody else. You can always change it. People do seem to like ongoing length-enhancement.


----------



## jamielakenovels

Kenzi said:


> What do you all think about this strategy Hugh Howey lays out? Do you think releasing the first few in the serial at once and then the next a few weeks later could build momentum? Or would it do the opposite?


Well, I'm willing to try it. I'm holding on to several of my books right now and I'll release the rest of the series all at once. I know, in my case, my books have a lot of cliffhangers and readers get irritated if they have to wait. Many people want to read things Netflix-style and binge. I'm the same way. I'll delay watching a series a few weeks or months just so I can watch what's going to happen all at once.

I'll report back to everyone how it works. I should be done in less than 1 month.


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm thinking of doing this with my next novella series as well. I find I get anxious between releases because people are waiting. While I prefer to write short, it might be better to release all the installments at once so I don't have to worry about it.


----------



## wtvr

Yeah, me too. Granted, most reviewers are low blood sugar or something, but 1* 2* for length and cliffhangers gets... depressing. My vampires were going to go to 11 episodes, but I'm wrapping up at 5, hopefully today. Then I'll start season 2, maybe release it all at once.


----------



## Going Incognito

J Ryan said:


> Last month may have been an anomaly, only time will tell. I think my normal income will be between $3000-$3500 each month as that's what I made in June and what I seem to be on track for this month.
> We'll see after Part 2 of my serial is released and part 1 goes permafree.


So very very cool. I remember your first posts, and to watch you grow has been neat. Congrats!


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm writing longer novellas, 20-40k words and have done away with cliffhangers. That's taken care of a lot of the hate. I'm not seeing as much sell through as I'd like but I think that might be because my first book has only been free for a little over a week. Even without the super short length and cliffhangers, I still prefer novella length and a serialized style. It's just how I like to write. The story I'm writing now will be 96k words before I move on to another couple. The next serial trilogy will be about 60k words. Then I might move back to the original couple for at least one novella of about 25-30k words. I also have a third couple in the same world I want to write about, which will probably be another three 20k word novellas. Then I will end the series with the original couple again. The first couple has an important mission that only they can accomplish, but I want to explore the world more with other couples. All in all, it will be like four full length novels when it is done. I just LIKE writing novella style much more. Plus, the freebie and extra titles gets way more exposure.


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

LisaGloria said:


> And for all the kvetching, my cliffie serial has a 90% sell-through from book 2-3. Non-cliffie series is 60%.
> 
> Ok, 2 kvetchers is not a lot. But still. Pbbtht.


lol, I think 2 is not bad.  But do whatever works for you!

And whatever a few reviewers might say, people are buying cliffhanger serials. So I think we should go by what people do rather than say...


----------



## Navigator

Kenzi said:


> What do you all think about this strategy Hugh Howey lays out? Do you think releasing the first few in the serial at once and then the next a few weeks later could build momentum? Or would it do the opposite?


Well I intend to release my trilogy all at once.

As for my next serial, I want to get them all finished first, release the first two or three and then release the rest of the books every three weeks. This will give me time to work on another series while the second is still being released.


----------



## OW

LisaGloria said:


> And for all the kvetching, my cliffie serial has a 90% sell-through from book 2-3. Non-cliffie series is 60%.
> 
> Ok, 2 kvetchers is not a lot. But still. Pbbtht.


Translate for a newbie not quite versed in the terminology yet please


----------



## SA_Soule

I have a YA PNR serial (series) that is doing well, but it is not published one chapter at a time. Each part is about 70k words. 

The first book, BEAUTIFULLY BROKEN is listed at $0.99 and the others are $3.99, which I think is a fair price. Well, anything under 5 bucks sounds like a good deal to me! LOL


----------



## Shelley K

LisaGloria said:


> What I mean is, people are fond of complaining about serials and cliffhangers, but 90% of those who buy episode 2 of my vampires go on to buy episode 3.
> 
> In a series, you would have related books as Cin described, but with a fuller story arc. So like in my werewolves, story 1 has a full arc and no cliffhanger. Yet fewer people buy story 2. More like 70%, now that I actually parsed out the math.
> 
> So, cliffhangers work for sales.
> 
> (But somebody with longer running serials and series will know better. It takes people a while to read sometimes. Lots of variables.)


There's no doubt that cliffhangers work best, but 70% is still a great sell-through.


----------



## wtvr

shelleyo1 said:


> There's no doubt that cliffhangers work best, but 70% is still a great sell-through.


It will all probably go sideways soon, LOL, but thanks.


----------



## Redacted1111

Wait. You are having 70% sell through from the first free book to the second book? Wah? I'm assuming you mean two to three. lol.


----------



## Redacted1111

Sherry_Soule said:


> I have a YA PNR serial (series) that is doing well, but it is not published one chapter at a time. Each part is about 70k words.
> 
> The first book, BEAUTIFULLY BROKEN is listed at $0.99 and the others are $3.99, which I think is a fair price. Well, anything under 5 bucks sounds like a good deal to me! LOL


I MIGHT start writing 50-70k word novels after I get my career more established. But honestly, I really prefer novellas. I like the tighter arc. The way I think about the story comes to me more in episodes so the story telling is quick and compact. There aren't any wasted boring bits. It's just action action action. Until I feel confident I can tell a story that way in novel length, I'm going to avoid novels. I've written three full length novels, as novels, and I have to say, I still prefer writing novella length.


----------



## wtvr

Kalypsō said:


> Wait. You are having 70% sell through from the first free book to the second book? Wah? I'm assuming you mean two to three. lol.


No... I am leaving the permafree out of it. That's too damn confusing, LOL. I'm looking at book 2 to book 3 (two serials and one series) or book 1 to book 2 (if there's no free).


----------



## AssanaBanana

LisaGloria said:


> No... I am leaving the permafree out of it. That's too d*mn confusing, LOL. I'm looking at book 2 to book 3 (two serials and one series) or book 1 to book 2 (if there's no free).


I was wondering, too... I went to look at my spreadsheet and my Book 1 to Book 2 conversion rate is like five percent due to the massive number of free downloads of Book 1. Conversion from 2 to 3 was closer to 70%. Mine's a serial, too, but I do have mini-arcs that get tied up in each book. There's an overall plot arc for the entire series, but each mini-arc focuses on a single relationship that is resolved by the end of each book. I still get complaints for it being "incomplete" or "too short" though.


----------



## Redacted1111

LisaGloria said:


> No... I am leaving the permafree out of it. That's too d*mn confusing, LOL. I'm looking at book 2 to book 3 (two serials and one series) or book 1 to book 2 (if there's no free).


Ah that makes sense. I was like, dang. I wish I had that sell through rate.


----------



## wtvr

Kalypsō said:


> Ah that makes sense. I was like, dang. I wish I had that sell through rate.


Me too, LOL. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I should have mentioned that the werewolves have no freebie.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Cryptic Fawn said:


> Well I intend to release my trilogy all at once.
> 
> As for my next serial, I want to get them all finished first, release the first two or three and then release the rest of the books every three weeks. This will give me time to work on another series while the second is still being released.


This is pretty much what I'm planning on doing with my next few releases though I'm still a little on the fence about whether or not I should release my new Epic Fantasy/Romance novel trilogy (in the final editing stages) all at once or release only books 1 & 2 initially and wait a month to release the third which, like you, would give me more time to work on all my other series/serials. I'm really interested to see how everyone does releasing all or 2 or 3 parts of their serials. If buy-throughs increase, it may be worth waiting until the whole serial or series is completed to release it.


----------



## Navigator

CristinaRayne said:


> This is pretty much what I'm planning on doing with my next few releases though I'm still a little on the fence about whether or not I should release my new Epic Fantasy/Romance novel trilogy (in the final editing stages) all at once or release only books 1 & 2 initially and wait a month to release the third which, like you, would give me more time to work on all my other series/serials. I'm really interested to see how everyone does releasing all or 2 or 3 parts of their serials. If buy-throughs increase, it may be worth waiting until the whole serial or series is completed to release it.


What I find so appealing about this method is that you can literally have one or two books being constantly released every month, all year round. A part of me wishes I had started with my longer serial first instead of my trilogy, but oh well, it's already almost done (also nearing the final editing stages!) but at least now I have a good idea on what to do next and how to implement it all. 

Edit: And technically, this is what Viola has been doing with her serials.


----------



## Sara C

I suppose I could make a new topic for this, but this thread seems to have gathered many of the serial romance writers on the boards. I'm just wondering how many of you (if any at all) publish on All Romance Ebooks, and whether or not you think it's a worthwhile site. I'm considering it, but don't want to go to the trouble if it's a bust.


----------



## Andie

I think ARE is worthwhile. It doesn't make me a ton of money, but I know some people do really well there. And once you get signed up, it's not difficult to load there.


----------



## Sara C

Great I guess I'll go for it . Thanks for you quick responses!


----------



## allurapub

VMた said:


> There is nothing special about romance re: serialization. In fact, romances were one of the few forms of fiction that WEREN'T often serialized outside of comics and the original "soap operas" (which were sponsored love stories).
> 
> To be honest, I'm getting a weeee bit tired of the "OMG!!! I HAVE to write a werewolf paranormal romance!!!" rush. Geez. Viola chose werewolves because she LIKES PARANORMAL ROMANCE *and* it was commercially viable. I chose vampires/werewolves/hunters/etc because I LIKE PARANORMAL ROMANCE. Yeah, it's commercially viable. SO ARE LOTS OF OTHER THINGS.
> 
> If I were going strictly for money, I wouldn't actually be writing romance right now. I'd be writing thrillers with romantic subplots. To me, this is the BIG market that's wide open right now. I know thrillers aren't as big in indie ebooks yet, but I think that's because romance WRITERS are so much more business savvy (and romance readers are more tech savvy), as a group, than any other kind of writer, and it's been that way for decades. Patterson, Konrath, CJ Lyons, Theresa Ragan, and Russell Blake aside, thriller writers aren't very business smart.
> 
> In fact, I'm seriously considering doing a light edit of The Alpha's Captive and repackaging it as a thriller when I'm done with the serial, just to see how well it does, because it is a shoot-em-up, action-adventure story. And yes, I actually do read quite a lot of thrillers.
> 
> It's a big, brave wonderful world out there, and if you're just jumping on this because one person did well, you're probably going to be bitterly disappointed unless you have a very, very low threshold for defining "success." Most of those jump-on-the-bandwagon werewolf serials aren't selling well because they just aren't that good--not that the writers stink, but they don't understand the genre, and genre alone doesn't lead to a strongly selling book.
> 
> Take a look at the Kindle Top Sellers:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-eBooks/zgbs/digital-text/154606011/
> 
> Notice how many werewolf books there are on page one? 0.
> How many paranormal romances? 0.
> How many romances? 4.
> YA? 3.
> Fantasy? 4.
> Historical fiction? 2.
> Thriller or Suspense? 6.
> Women's lit? 2.
> 
> Go do something you like! Do something you're good at! AND do something that's commercial!
> 
> Most of us like and read in more than one genre. Find that sweet spot that speaks to you and has a hungry or large audience. And the word "hungry" is also key. New Adult Romance is a very strong category right now, but it's also very crowded and it's full of bargain shoppers. Unless that was my love, I wouldn't start out there right now because even though the ceiling is very high, discovery's REALLY tough.
> 
> Sweet Amish romances have a smaller audience and are also pretty crowded. Sweet historical westerns and sweet contemporary romances are both smallish audiences, but they're very hungry.
> 
> Steampunk is crowded with a small audience--unless it bleeds over into other genres.
> 
> Historical fiction readers, especially ancient world readers, are a smallish audience that is very hungry.
> 
> Epic fantasy is a large-but-crowded genre.
> 
> Space opera is medium-sized and crowded.
> 
> Dystopian/post-apoc is very large and moderately crowded.
> 
> Medical thrillers are large and not at all crowded.
> 
> Go find something you read, you like, you enjoy, and that sells enough to support more writers, and DO THAT THING. Make either a series or a serial--doesn't matter which, but yes, for success, you need connected books.
> 
> I decided on my business model back in February because I knew what books I wanted to write. I really wanted to combine structural and tropic elements of Twilight, Outlander, In Death, and 50 Shades into the world that I'd built. I'm not writing blockbusters. I'm building slowly and steadily and am finding my audience. I am writing very close to a number of genres but coloring just a bit outside of the lines of all of them in the process.


VM,

How do you determine whether a genre is hungry? I am new here (first post, longtime lurker) and have been reading everything I can get my hands on.

Thanks,

Jessica


----------



## Gentleman Zombie

Jessie Donovan said:


> I'm not VM, but related to what she's saying is to find a current niche and/or trope that is hungry. Part of the reason Liliana Hart was so successful was because Traditional Publishers kept saying Romantic Suspense was "dead" but she published her books indie, and showed there is a HUGE audience wanting more of RS.


I think something to think about is that what is "dead" for traditional publishers, might be a goldmine for indies & smaller publishers. Remember, that a big publisher has a lot expensive overhead costs. So a genre that may sell barely in the hundreds of copies per month, isn't really worth it to them. Now for someone like me, who has no overhead to speak of, a few hundred sales monthly is a gold mine.

A lot of independents are simply picking up the dregs that big publishers don't want to bother with. I believe that's why you'll see a lot indies writing in genres like BBW (Big Beautiful Women), Paranormal (werewolves, vamps, witches, etc..), and the various romantic/erotic sub categorizes. It makes me wonder what other genres outside of romance are being under served.


----------



## NerdyWriter

J Ryan said:


> I make less than $100 a month there, but it's money I wouldn't have had otherwise and it takes virtually no time for me to upload there.


but after 3 months, $300 would like nice because they pay quarterly? I haven't uploaded yet. Just got a publisher's account on Monday.


----------



## Honeybun

VMた said:


> There is nothing special about romance re: serialization. In fact, romances were one of the few forms of fiction that WEREN'T often serialized outside of comics and the original "soap operas" (which were sponsored love stories).
> 
> To be honest, I'm getting a weeee bit tired of the "OMG!!! I HAVE to write a werewolf paranormal romance!!!" rush. Geez. Viola chose werewolves because she LIKES PARANORMAL ROMANCE *and* it was commercially viable. I chose vampires/werewolves/hunters/etc because I LIKE PARANORMAL ROMANCE. Yeah, it's commercially viable. SO ARE LOTS OF OTHER THINGS.
> 
> If I were going strictly for money, I wouldn't actually be writing romance right now. I'd be writing thrillers with romantic subplots. To me, this is the BIG market that's wide open right now. I know thrillers aren't as big in indie ebooks yet, but I think that's because romance WRITERS are so much more business savvy (and romance readers are more tech savvy), as a group, than any other kind of writer, and it's been that way for decades. Patterson, Konrath, CJ Lyons, Theresa Ragan, and Russell Blake aside, thriller writers aren't very business smart.
> 
> In fact, I'm seriously considering doing a light edit of The Alpha's Captive and repackaging it as a thriller when I'm done with the serial, just to see how well it does, because it is a shoot-em-up, action-adventure story. And yes, I actually do read quite a lot of thrillers.
> 
> It's a big, brave wonderful world out there, and if you're just jumping on this because one person did well, you're probably going to be bitterly disappointed unless you have a very, very low threshold for defining "success." Most of those jump-on-the-bandwagon werewolf serials aren't selling well because they just aren't that good--not that the writers stink, but they don't understand the genre, and genre alone doesn't lead to a strongly selling book.
> 
> Take a look at the Kindle Top Sellers:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-eBooks/zgbs/digital-text/154606011/
> 
> Notice how many werewolf books there are on page one? 0.
> How many paranormal romances? 0.
> How many romances? 4.
> YA? 3.
> Fantasy? 4.
> Historical fiction? 2.
> Thriller or Suspense? 6.
> Women's lit? 2.
> 
> Go do something you like! Do something you're good at! AND do something that's commercial!
> 
> Most of us like and read in more than one genre. Find that sweet spot that speaks to you and has a hungry or large audience. And the word "hungry" is also key. New Adult Romance is a very strong category right now, but it's also very crowded and it's full of bargain shoppers. Unless that was my love, I wouldn't start out there right now because even though the ceiling is very high, discovery's REALLY tough.
> 
> Sweet Amish romances have a smaller audience and are also pretty crowded. Sweet historical westerns and sweet contemporary romances are both smallish audiences, but they're very hungry.
> 
> Steampunk is crowded with a small audience--unless it bleeds over into other genres.
> 
> Historical fiction readers, especially ancient world readers, are a smallish audience that is very hungry.
> 
> Epic fantasy is a large-but-crowded genre.
> 
> Space opera is medium-sized and crowded.
> 
> Dystopian/post-apoc is very large and moderately crowded.
> 
> Medical thrillers are large and not at all crowded.
> 
> Go find something you read, you like, you enjoy, and that sells enough to support more writers, and DO THAT THING. Make either a series or a serial--doesn't matter which, but yes, for success, you need connected books.
> 
> I decided on my business model back in February because I knew what books I wanted to write. I really wanted to combine structural and tropic elements of Twilight, Outlander, In Death, and 50 Shades into the world that I'd built. I'm not writing blockbusters. I'm building slowly and steadily and am finding my audience. I am writing very close to a number of genres but coloring just a bit outside of the lines of all of them in the process.


VM... thank you for this post!


----------



## BlairErotica

Jessie Donovan said:


> Yeah, the quarterly payments are both good and bad, lol.
> 
> I'm not sure why so many people don't upload to ARe. Granted, it needs to be pretty steamy or erotic to do well, but ARe is my #2 seller after Amazon. Getting 60% of $0.99 for a serial part is quite nice.


I don't see the conversion on ARE for my series that I do on other sites. I get downloads of the permafree and periodic sales, but I haven't seen a build. I do better on B&N, iTunes and Oyster. So far ARE has been more work than return for my erotica.


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

BlairErotica said:


> I don't see the conversion on ARE for my series that I do on other sites. I get downloads of the permafree and periodic sales, but I haven't seen a build. I do better on B&N, iTunes and Oyster. So far ARE has been more work than return for my erotica.


iTunes is my worst seller (yes, I even sell better on Kobo), unless you count Google Play. But I've heard permafree on iTunes really helps to build momentum.

As for ARe, my steamier/erotic stuff does well there, but not my sort-of steamy stuff. I've also discovered that if I release on a Thursday or Friday on ARe it sells much better than Monday or Tuesday. From my experience, readers tend to buy there more on the weekends and your new release can get buried in the list if you release earlier in the week.

Of course, as always with this business, YMMV.


----------



## allurapub

Jessie and Vicki,

Thank you for your responses. I've been researching niches. I think I have found one that I like so I will be diving into writing ASAP. 

Thanks,

Jessica


----------



## Kenzi

Earlier in the thread, I posted about being under a restrictive contract with a publisher. Happily, my attorney was able to negotiate me out of it (well, it was a little more complicated than that). I owe them one book now, and then I'll be free to self-publish. 

Thank you to everyone in this thread for giving such great advice. And now I'm going to go sit in the corner and soak up all the collective wisdom.


----------



## Charmaine

Kenzi said:


> Earlier in the thread, I posted about being under a restrictive contract with a publisher. Happily, my attorney was able to negotiate me out of it (well, it was a little more complicated than that). I owe them one book now, and then I'll be free to self-publish.
> 
> Thank you to everyone in this thread for giving such great advice. And now I'm going to go sit in the corner and soak up all the collective wisdom.


 That's the best news ever! I'm so happy for you.


----------



## Honeybun

Please forgive me if this question has already been addressed.  I'm planning on writing a serialized erotic romance of short stories.  I'm unsure of what I should use for the POV.  I don't have a lot of experiences with romances so I wasn't sure what POV was most acceptable for a romance.  I googled it and found that omniscient POV between the hero and heroine were the most accepted.  But, in an erotic story, the POV tends to just be one person and these stories will be erotic romance.  So, I am feel unsure.  Should I do a split omniscient POV between the hero and heroine in an erotic, short story series?  Or, just go with single 3rd person heroine?  I plan to write in past tense, btw.

Thank you for any and all help!


----------



## Redacted1111

Omniscient POV is rare these days. In romance either write close 3rd person for one or both characters, alternating between chapters. Or first person (a bit more difficult with multiple POVs but becoming more popular), alternating between chapters. Or choose a single view point character and write in close 3rd or 1st. That would be my recommendation, and probably the easiest to write.


----------



## Andie

Omniscient is really only okay anymore in romance if your name is Nora. With few exceptions.


----------



## Ava Glass

Just last night, I read two prequel novellas to a NA paranormal romance (?) series.

The first was in third person present omniscient. The second was first person past omniscient. They didn't bother me at all and the reviews seemed to like the stories. They were well-crafted, so the readers probably didn't notice. Unusual POVs can be invisible when done well, but I imagine it's hard.

http://www.amazon.com/Irin-Last-Scribe-Prequels-Book-ebook/dp/B00L2QOLP6/

http://www.amazon.com/Scepter-Last-Scribe-Prequels-Book-ebook/dp/B00LH1O8CC


----------



## Honeybun

Thank you all for the advice!  For whatever reason, when I think of voice of the story I keep thinking of it in first person/heroine and I don't usually even write in 1st person.  That might be what I ultimately go with.  I was just concerned about potentially alienating romance readers by choosing the wrong POV.  Thanks again!


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Thank you all for the advice! For whatever reason, when I think of voice of the story I keep thinking of it in first person/heroine and I don't usually even write in 1st person. That might be what I ultimately go with. I was just concerned about potentially alienating romance readers by choosing the wrong POV. Thanks again!


You may want to read a little in the same subgenre of romance you plan to write to get a feel for what readers will expect.  Certain POVs work better for different subgenres. And you also want to write what you're comfortable writing. I would totally suck at writing a 1st POV romance, but there are some who are stars at it. It all just depends...


----------



## Honeybun

Jessie Donovan said:


> You may want to read a little in the same subgenre of romance you plan to write to get a feel for what readers will expect.  Certain POVs work better for different subgenres. And you also want to write what you're comfortable writing. I would totally suck at writing a 1st POV romance, but there are some who are stars at it. It all just depends...


I'm used to writing my erotica in 3rd person but for whatever reason this wants to come out as first person, past tense so I think I'm gonna give it a try. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Tasha Black

Hi everyone,

I just had to hop on to say thank you and to celebrate! With the help of Kboards and specifically this thread, I finally had the courage to publish my first title! It just went live on Amazon this morning!!!  

I know I'm jumping into a saturated market, but this was the story that spoke to me. Thank you for the endless and advice and handholding. The journey was less daunting with all of you by my side!

-Tasha


----------



## A.C. Nixon

Congrats Tasha! How many words are you planning for each episode of your serial?


----------



## CristinaRayne

Tasha Black said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just had to hop on to say thank you and to celebrate! With the help of Kboards and specifically this thread, I finally had the courage to publish my first title! It just went live on Amazon this morning!!!
> 
> I know I'm jumping into a saturated market, but this was the story that spoke to me. Thank you for the endless and advice and handholding. The journey was less daunting with all of you by my side!
> 
> -Tasha


Congrats and good luck!


----------



## Tasha Black

Hi A.C., I've already written all six parts - the whole thing is a bit over 90,000 words - the episodes are about 15,000 words each! (I made myself write the whole thing first. I thought Viola had a good point that life can get in the way of writing and I was worried I'd stop in the middle!)

Thank you, Cristina, it's an unbelievable feeling to see it up on Amazon! I've been a confirmed bookworm all my life - I've spent just about all my pocket money on books since I was a kid. It's really wild to see something of my own up there!


----------



## Honeybun

Tasha Black said:


> Hi A.C., I've already written all six parts - the whole thing is a bit over 90,000 words - the episodes are about 15,000 words each! (I made myself write the whole thing first. I thought Viola had a good point that life can get in the way of writing and I was worried I'd stop in the middle!)
> 
> Thank you, Cristina, it's an unbelievable feeling to see it up on Amazon! I've been a confirmed bookworm all my life - I've spent just about all my pocket money on books since I was a kid. It's really wild to see something of my own up there!


It's so impressive that you wrote the whole thing first! Congrads and good luck!


----------



## sunnywriter

Tasha Black said:


> Hi A.C., I've already written all six parts - the whole thing is a bit over 90,000 words - the episodes are about 15,000 words each! (I made myself write the whole thing first. I thought Viola had a good point that life can get in the way of writing and I was worried I'd stop in the middle!)
> 
> Thank you, Cristina, it's an unbelievable feeling to see it up on Amazon! I've been a confirmed bookworm all my life - I've spent just about all my pocket money on books since I was a kid. It's really wild to see something of my own up there!


Congrats Tasha. Judging by the store rank, it's already off to a good start, and with the other episodes already written, I am sure it'll take off. If I may ask, did you do any promotion/marketing for the first episode? And how quickly do you plan to release the next episodes, weekly? I am also working on a serial and I understand the excitement of releasing your works on Amazon.


----------



## Tasha Black

Thanks, Ada! (I love the first line of your Amazon bio, by the way!!!)

Sunny, wow, I just checked - it looks like I sold 5 copies! Though I must admit one of them I bought myself (couldn't resist seeing how it would look on my own iPad)! No promos yet - I figured I'd wait until the second one was out and this one free - that way there would be a way to get readers interested. Does that seem like the right approach? 

I'm glad that you asked about timing for Part 2. I was planning to wait at least a week or two to put out Part 2. Does anyone have advice on the proper amount of time to wait? What works for you? Anything to look out for?


----------



## Honeybun

Tasha Black said:


> Thanks, Ada! (I love the first line of your Amazon bio, by the way!!!)


Thank you! And, I'm so flattered that you looked!


----------



## Lehane

Tasha Black said:


> Thanks, Ada! (I love the first line of your Amazon bio, by the way!!!)
> 
> Sunny, wow, I just checked - it looks like I sold 5 copies! Though I must admit one of them I bought myself (couldn't resist seeing how it would look on my own iPad)! No promos yet - I figured I'd wait until the second one was out and this one free - that way there would be a way to get readers interested. Does that seem like the right approach?
> 
> I'm glad that you asked about timing for Part 2. I was planning to wait at least a week or two to put out Part 2. Does anyone have advice on the proper amount of time to wait? What works for you? Anything to look out for?


Hopefully someone with some experience can chime in here, but just as a thought (ETA: Lala beat me to it!) -- have you considered posting the first two now, and then starting a release cycle every week/two weeks/etc? I would think it certainly couldn't hurt your traction to have something else for readers to sink their teeth into. I know Hugh Howey was talking about releasing a chunk at first and then spacing them out recently.

Congrats on publishing and you're a superstar for having it all written already!


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

Lehane said:


> Hopefully someone with some experience can chime in here, but just as a thought (ETA: Lala beat me to it!) -- have you considered posting the first two now, and then starting a release cycle every week/two weeks/etc? I would think it certainly couldn't hurt your traction to have something else for readers to sink their teeth into. I know Hugh Howey was talking about releasing a chunk at first and then spacing them out recently.
> 
> Congrats on publishing and you're a superstar for having it all written already!


Is every two weeks ideal? Once a month too far-spaced apart?


----------



## Lehane

Sylvia R. Frost said:


> Is every two weeks ideal? Once a month too far-spaced apart?


As a reader, I love every two weeks. It does keep you fresh in the reader's mind...but then, you have to write faster to stay ahead on whatever comes next! I think anything up to a month, though, seems pretty common and totally acceptable. As more pure conjecture, I suppose less than a month apart could help stagger the impact of any 30 day cliffs. Maybe every three weeks? I think Viola experimented with that successfully.


----------



## Tasha Black

Thanks for the responses, Lala, Lehane and Sylvia! 

I will think about putting #2 right out - Lehane, you're right - maybe that is best. Someone on here said that summer was slow so I originally thought I might hold the whole thing until September. But I had a burst of nerves and decided to jump in now.

Since the individual lengths of 3,4,5 & 6 are not as consistent as the lengths of 1 and 2 I am planning to bundle them. (I didn't quite want to sacrifice plot to exact episode lengths, but I'm afraid anything less than 15K words will get panned for being short.) Here's the planned release:

- 1 (out now)
- 2 very soon (sounds like no more than two weeks and maybe right away - everyone's input is greatly appreciated!) for $0.99
- 3 & 4 as two-for-one item for $2.99 (two weeks after 2 comes out)
- 5 & 6 as two-for-one item for $2.99 (two weeks after 3 & 4 come out)

But I'm really grateful for any input and advice, especially on timing.


----------



## Navigator

Tasha Black said:


> Thanks for the responses, Lala, Lehane and Sylvia!
> 
> I will think about putting #2 right out - Lehane, you're right - maybe that is best. Someone on here said that summer was slow so I originally thought I might hold the whole thing until September. But I had a burst of nerves and decided to jump in now.
> 
> Since the individual lengths of 3,4,5 & 6 are not as consistent as the lengths of 1 and 2 I am planning to bundle them. (I didn't quite want to sacrifice plot to exact episode lengths, but I'm afraid anything less than 15K words will get panned for being short.) Here's the planned release:
> 
> - 1 (out now)
> - 2 very soon (sounds like no more than two weeks and maybe right away - everyone's input is greatly appreciated!) for $0.99
> - 3 & 4 as two-for-one item for $2.99 (two weeks after 2 comes out)
> - 5 & 6 as two-for-one item for $2.99 (two weeks after 3 & 4 come out)
> 
> But I'm really grateful for any input and advice, especially on timing.


I personally wouldn't price anything under 25k words at $2.99 You're going to most likely get yelled at by reviewers for that. $.99 would be better, I think.

I'd release Book 2 if you already have it done, now. And then release the other parts every 2-3 weeks.


----------



## Redacted1111

I think writing everything and having it all edited before publishing is a good way to go. I plan to do that with my next three part serial. I agree that anything under 20k words should probably be 99c. The good part is, your bundle can probably be $4.99 or more.


----------



## Tasha Black

Cryptic Fawn said:


> I personally wouldn't price anything under 25k words at $2.99 You're going to most likely get yelled at by reviewers for that. $.99 would be better, I think.


Episodes 3 & 4 will be bundled together for $2.99 with a total of about 30,000 words for the bundle.

Same thing for 5 & 6 - bundled together for $2.99 - 30,000 words for the whole.

Do you think that works?

Kalypso, thanks for chiming in on the word length. It helps to have a ballpark on what's acceptable!

Jesse, wow, your books look awesome and I like the way you think about August not being so bad! You know, the idea of buying myself time to write six more never occurred to me but it's a thought, especially if this season sells well. I like the idea of giving readers a steady flow of material...


----------



## Navigator

Tasha Black said:


> Episodes 3 & 4 will be bundled together for $2.99 with a total of about 30,000 words for the bundle.
> 
> Same thing for 5 & 6 - bundled together for $2.99 - 30,000 words for the whole.
> 
> Do you think that works?
> 
> Kalypso, thanks for chiming in on the word length. It helps to have a ballpark on what's acceptable!
> 
> Jesse, wow, your books look awesome and I like the way you think about August not being so bad! You know, the idea of buying myself time to write six more never occurred to me but it's a thought, especially if this season sells well. I like the idea of giving readers a steady flow of material...


Ah okay, that most certainly works!


----------



## Lehane

I'm in the midst of scribble drafting a serial, and I'm realizing I take quite a bit of time to get to any of the love interest business. Right now, the male characters arrive right around 3k or 4k, of probably a 20-25k episode. Is that too long to keep reader interest? Should I jump a bit more into the romance setup/action earlier on? I know most of what I read dives right in with the hunks, but I'm wondering if it can be a bit more flexible. 

I'm using the time to world build and introduce my heroine. I have big world that edges toward Urban Fantasy world, but the end result will be on the PNR spectrum. 

I will definitely do heavy edits after this draft, so I'll feel out what I like...but does anyone have experience with this?


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

I've got the love interest showing up at 2.5k, and I feel like I'm pushing it.


----------



## A.C. Nixon

Tasha,
Now that we have the ability to do pre-orders, you could put the rest of them up now and your readers could see that the serial is already written, and maybe go ahead and order it so it can be in their kindles when it drops.

It could be like that old infomercial, "just set it and forget it." (I'm showing my age) I'm planning to do that with my trunk novel that I'm planning to turn into a novella series. I'm almost afraid to look at it, I wrote it a couple of years ago, and hopefully I'm a much better writer now.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.


----------



## Will C. Brown

A.C. Nixon said:


> Tasha,
> Now that we have the ability to do pre-orders, you could put the rest of them up now and your readers could see that the serial is already written, and maybe go ahead and order it so it can be in their kindles when it drops.
> 
> It could be like that old infomercial, "just set it and forget it." (I'm showing my age) I'm planning to do that with my trunk novel that I'm planning to turn into a novella series. I'm almost afraid to look at it, I wrote it a couple of years ago, and hopefully I'm a much better writer now.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.


This is a great idea. It will ward off any reader fears about investing time and money in a series that may not finish. Plus it'll give the rest of us an opportunity to see if the model works.


----------



## I&#039;ve been burned

A.C. Nixon said:


> Tasha,
> Now that we have the ability to do pre-orders, you could put the rest of them up now and your readers could see that the serial is already written, and maybe go ahead and order it so it can be in their kindles when it drops.
> 
> It could be like that old infomercial, "just set it and forget it." (I'm showing my age) I'm planning to do that with my trunk novel that I'm planning to turn into a novella series. I'm almost afraid to look at it, I wrote it a couple of years ago, and hopefully I'm a much better writer now.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.


This slipped my mind, about the pre-orders, lol. Thanks for bringing it up, A.C.! (Granted, I have a deadline tomorrow, so my mind is slowly turning into mush...) But yes, I'm planning to try it to since I write two parts at a time. That way when they finish Part Three, they can pre-order Part Four. If anyone does this before I get to it in a few weeks, please share! I'm wondering if people will still sign up for your mailing list if they do the pre-order option.


----------



## Honeybun

Jessie Donovan said:


> This slipped my mind, about the pre-orders, lol. Thanks for bringing it up, A.C.! (Granted, I have a deadline tomorrow, so my mind is slowly turning into mush...) But yes, I'm planning to try it to since I write two parts at a time. That way when they finish Part Three, they can pre-order Part Four. If anyone does this before I get to it in a few weeks, please share! I'm wondering if people will still sign up for your mailing list if they do the pre-order option.


I find this idea super exciting but just to get my mind clear, does pre-ordering require you to go exclusive with Amazon via KDP Select?


----------



## Andie

No, you don't have to be in select.


----------



## Tasha Black

A.C., Oh my goodness, pre-orders, what a great idea!!! I'm doing one last once-over of Edpisode 2 today and then I will either put it up for real or for pre-order. I'm still trying to decide which.

And I may do pre-order for the rest! I'll keep everybody posted. Will, you're so right - if nothing else it will be a good experiment!  

As always, thank you buckets for the great input!!!!!


----------



## A.C. Nixon

I have to say this is my favorite long running thread.


----------



## Tasha Black

I agree, A. C.!! 
So I tried putting up Episode 2 tonight using Vellum. It uploaded, now Amazon says it is "converting" - and has been saying the same for hours... Apparently their site maintenance makes this happen sometimes? ARGHHH!!!


----------



## CristinaRayne

Tasha Black said:


> I agree, A. C.!!
> So I tried putting up Episode 2 tonight using Vellum. It uploaded, now Amazon says it is "converting" - and has been saying the same for hours... Apparently their site maintenance makes this happen sometimes? ARGHHH!!!


I second the "ARGHHH!"  Mine's been "converting" all day and it's now 2:30 am... I'm getting blasted by emails from readers asking when it will be available. Remind me to never publish on Sat again!

*update: Yay it's fixed!


----------



## Navigator

CristinaRayne said:


> I second the "ARGHHH!"  Mine's been "converting" all day and it's now 2:30 am... I'm getting blasted by emails from readers asking when it will be available. Remind me to never publish on Sat again!


Note to self: Never publish on a Saturday.


----------



## Honeybun

Andie said:


> No, you don't have to be in select.


Thanks, Andie!


----------



## Irish Mint

I noticed that Viola put all her books into Select.

Anyone here putting Part 1 as permafree and all subsequent installments into KDP Select for KU? I want to take advantage of KU but I also wanted to do permafree


----------



## Honeybun

Irish Mint said:


> I noticed that Viola put all her books into Select.
> 
> Anyone here putting Part 1 as permafree and all subsequent installments into KDP Select for KU? I want to take advantage of KU but I also wanted to do permafree


That's a really good idea, IMHO.


----------



## wtvr

Irish Mint said:


> I noticed that Viola put all her books into Select.
> 
> Anyone here putting Part 1 as permafree and all subsequent installments into KDP Select for KU? I want to take advantage of KU but I also wanted to do permafree


It works well with my sci-fi romance. I'm working on getting part 1 free for my billionaire vampire serial... Borrows are 3-4 times as many as buys. I say go for it.


----------



## Redacted1111

I'm doing the same thing with mine. Seems to be working well. I can't write fast enough for how well I feel it is going. lol


----------



## Tasha Black

I am debating about Select right now.

It goes against my instinct to put all my eggs in one basket like that, but it seems like such a nice basket!

I am not having any luck getting Episode 1 to go permafree.
Should I give up on permafree and throw part 1 in as well, or is permafree and select the smartest model right now?


----------



## Redacted1111

At this point, I'm planning to put my serials in for one round of Select (with first perma-free) and then possibly diversify. I have older books that are already in other channels that are selling well enough that I haven't taken them out. After ninety days on Amazon you face massive sales cliff anyway, seems a good time to try out other venues. We'll see. I'm still fairly new to this, almost a year, so I still have a lot of agility in what I'm able to try.


----------



## Tasha Black

Also, with 1 up now, and part 2 up sometime today, what's next?!

I want to start running some promos.
What is everyone having luck with lately?


----------



## Carradee

Tasha Black said:


> I am not having any luck getting Episode 1 to go permafree.


Did you e-mail KDP customer service directly? Do that on Monday. You'll likely have it permafree no later than Wednesday.


----------



## Kenzi

Irish Mint said:


> I noticed that Viola put all her books into Select.
> 
> Anyone here putting Part 1 as permafree and all subsequent installments into KDP Select for KU? I want to take advantage of KU but I also wanted to do permafree


Thank you for asking this! I'm trying to figure out a release strategy for my first serial and can't figure out which would be best:

1. Put it in Select and KU at 99 cents per installment, which means I'll make more than 35 cents per borrow/loan (right?) and use my free days for promo.
2. Make the first permafree and publish at all retailers to maximize exposure.
3. Make the first permafree at all retailers and put the rest in Select and KU.


----------



## OW

Can I ask what you guys are all doing when the perma free's start to trail off. My numbers have been on the downward turn for a few days now and was wondering if reverting to sales was the way to go if they get really low?


----------



## Tasha Black

Carradee said:


> Did you e-mail KDP customer service directly? Do that on Monday. You'll likely have it permafree no later than Wednesday.


I did email them. They told me NO!!

It was a form response that said something about price matching being done at their discretion. 
I wonder if it is a way to drive more titles into select?

They obviously view free as a valid price structure, or they wouldn't have free charts for every genre. 
Why make the process so hard for indies?


----------



## wtvr

Olivia Wilson said:


> Can I ask what you guys are all doing when the perma free's start to trail off. My numbers have been on the downward turn for a few days now and was wondering if reverting to sales was the way to go if they get really low?


I promote it with bknights or something like all the freebie submission sites. Eventually ENT or whoever will take me.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Irish Mint said:


> I noticed that Viola put all her books into Select.
> 
> Anyone here putting Part 1 as permafree and all subsequent installments into KDP Select for KU? I want to take advantage of KU but I also wanted to do permafree


Putting my first complete serial in Select to take advantage of KU is something I'm seriously considering. However, before I start un-publishing titles from everywhere else, I'm waiting to see what the payout per borrow will be for Aug and Sept as all the initial free 30-day subscriptions will expire. It was $1.80 for July, but there's no guarantee it'll be that high this month. I'll be starting a new series in Sept and I'm leaning towards doing select for at least the 1st 90 days. Hearing about all the short story writers making 4K+ with KU last month certainly makes going select more tempting. 



Olivia Wilson said:


> Can I ask what you guys are all doing when the perma free's start to trail off. My numbers have been on the downward turn for a few days now and was wondering if reverting to sales was the way to go if they get really low?


Usually when my downloads start to dip, I run a promo with sites like Freebooksy, POI or BKnights. At least for me, that usually gets the momentum going again. Plus, this is back-to-school season, so that may have contributed to your dip in sales.


----------



## OW

Thanks Lisa & Cristina. I was wondering about the promo's, though I did hear that they don't work as well a second time, but as you have both suggested it that may not be accurate. How far apart do you think it is necessary to space a promo on a perma free?


----------



## Navigator

Viola has updated the opening post for those that have not looked yet.


----------



## wtvr

Cryptic Fawn said:


> Viola has updated the opening post for those that have not looked yet.


How am I supposed to look when your avatar is always running up and licking my screen??


----------



## Navigator

LisaGloria said:


> How am I supposed to look when your avatar is always running up and licking my screen??


With some marmot slobber blocking your view.


----------



## CristinaRayne

Olivia Wilson said:


> Thanks Lisa & Cristina. I was wondering about the promo's, though I did hear that they don't work as well a second time, but as you have both suggested it that may not be accurate. How far apart do you think it is necessary to space a promo on a perma free?


I usually try to do at least 1 promo every month-month&1/2, usually on the day of a new release. I've done BKnights twice on the same permafree 2 months apart and received even more downloads the second time around.


----------



## Tasha Black

What do you guys think of Kindle Worlds?
It seems like romance is pretty hot there right now. 

I have a novella that I was thinking about publishing in the Game for Love world. (The only real qualification is that it be about sports.)

Do you think that is a good idea to get some eyes on my series?
Or am I better off just publishing it in KDP select?


----------



## wtvr

Tasha Black said:


> What do you guys think of Kindle Worlds?
> It seems like romance is pretty hot there right now.
> 
> I have a novella that I was thinking about publishing in the Game for Love world. (The only real qualification is that it be about sports.)
> 
> Do you think that is a good idea to get some eyes on my series?
> Or am I better off just publishing it in KDP select?


It's on my to-do list. Looks like great exposure.


----------



## A.A

lala said:


> If you have them all written, I would release them 7-9 days apart. Honestly, I would put out episode 2 right now and set the first one free everywhere.


Hi, can I ask how long it's taking people to set the first episode free?

Are most people releasing their serials at all distributors, or concentrating on Amazon and KU?

I have a serial ready to go (mystery/sci fi, with romance) but am confused about which way to go.


----------



## A.A

lala said:


> I waited until I had the second episode out before making the first free. That was about three weeks after the first was released. It looks like you have a fan base already too. I would wait a month to go free if I were you. You could possibly sell well even without putting any books free. It's worth giving a shot.
> 
> KU or not? Hard to say. Depends on how you feel about being exclusive & how much you're pricing your books at. I'm doing very well in KU & going in turned the summer slump around for me. But I know not everyone is seeing those kind of results. Results are so varied with the program and it's so new, it's hard to give any advice.


Thanks Lala. I'd like to go free with with the first ep right from the start, but I know that sometimes it takes months to have a book go free at Amazon. I was wondering if this has changed. Did you mean that you put ep.2 out 3 weeks after ep. 1 or that it took 3 weeks after publishing ep. 1 to have it go free? (Sorry, I'm a bit dull-headed at the moment. Trying to have a chocolate-free week ... and it's only Monday!)

I guess if I put it into select then those readers can that use KU can read for free right from the start. But I have no idea how many readers are in that. Most of my readers use Amazon.


----------



## Kenzi

Viola said:


> August 17th Update
> 
> *Kindle Unlimited & Where Should You publish?* [Updated]
> 
> Another thing worth mentioning, I wouldn't recommend going all in with KU at the beginning of your career. While most people make the majority of their income from Amazon, there are many who make a very significant amount from Google Play, Apple, and Barnes & Noble. It's always best to see where you're going to sell before you back yourself into a corner.


And that answers my earlier question.

By the way, I like your new avatar, Viola! Your hair is super cute.


----------



## A.A

Thanks again Lala - sounds like your email TO kdp might have done the trick, in the end.



Tasha Black said:


> I did email them. They told me NO!!
> 
> It was a form response that said something about price matching being done at their discretion.
> I wonder if it is a way to drive more titles into select?
> 
> They obviously view free as a valid price structure, or they wouldn't have free charts for every genre.
> Why make the process so hard for indies?


Ahhh, this is what worries me. I can't promise my readers it will go free soon if there's no guarantee it will.


----------



## wtvr

That sounds terrible! (I wish I knew what you were talking about. Or your pen name.) Swiping someone's pen name is bizarre.


----------



## Lehane

Is it really that common?   Maybe I live in a world of sunshine and rainbows, but that blows my mind. Popping into a genre is one thing, because hey, I didn't even know PNR was a a real thing until stumbling into Kboards, but stealing actual stuff...?

I feel like anyone desperate enough to steal names or plots (or character names and synopses?! WTF?) isn't actually in any way tuned to story or building an audience. If nothing else, they pose only the barest of threats to the genuine work you guys put out. Still, I can only imagine how frustrating that is.


----------



## Diane Patterson

Viola said:


> You and me both. So [expletive]ing p*ssed right now.


I'm very sorry to hear that you've been Kboarded (is that a term? seems like it should be) -- I was away from KBoards for a few months and then came back to find the vast majority of the strongest selling KBoarders had left because of crap like this. You shouldn't suffer for being helpful.

Even though I don't write PNR or serials, I have really appreciated all the info you have posted.


----------



## AnyaWrites

Viola said:


> You and me both. So [expletive]ing p*ssed right now.


I can't definitely see exactly what you both are saying. And it totally sucks.
I just wanted to say though, I'm so grateful for all the help you've given us!

And your latest update on the original post, Viola, definitely has me thinking. So again thanks for all you guys do!


----------



## geekgrrl

Viola said:


> You and me both. So [expletive]ing p*ssed right now.


((hugs)) to you both. That's pretty sad. Remember, there are other places that are more private, where you are both very welcome.


----------



## Lehane

AnyaWrites said:


> I can't definitely see exactly what you both are saying. And it totally sucks.
> I just wanted to say though, I'm so grateful for all the help you've given us!
> 
> And your latest update on the original post, Viola, definitely has me thinking. So again thanks for all you guys do!


Echoing this as well. I've been following this thread since it's inception, and it opened me up to a world of prose I didn't realize existed (coming from a TV background, it made indie publishing feel fun and possible). Thanks for everything you've shared so far.


----------



## C. Gockel

VM "Ta" (That's what it says in Japanese!) and Viola,

Thank you so much for all the constructive criticism and useful advice you've posted on this thread and Kboards. I am sorry that you're dealing with copy cats and people are asking for favors.
I hope you don't leave Kboards; I would miss you. I wish I had more to give in return.


----------



## Navigator

VMた said:


> I've seen these things. Some of them are just fine....on their own. For example, floofy dresses sell well in historicals. If you do bright-colored floofy dress covers, that doesn't make you a copy of Courtney Milan. Some title similarities are to be expected, too, as there are trigger words in any genre. Taking historical romance again, a title of a peer, like duke, marquis, earl, etc., or things like proposition, engagement, arrangement, mistress, secret, persuasion, bargain, etc. They're all common title keywords. But then people start combining it in way that are far beyond the likelihood of mere subgenre similarities.
> 
> I've seen people try to basically copy Viola's covers, just switching out the pictures. I've seen people even hunt down my cover model AND HIS POSE to make a cover virtually identical to mine. (How much time did that take you, people) I've seen people steal the made-up, unique character names from Viola's books. I've seen people lift her premises at least half a dozen times. People have swiped the occupations from my hero and heroine and combined it with other elements from my books and packaging in such a way that there's no way it could be anything like a coincidence. They've LIFTED my blurb copy and only tweaked it slightly. There are now a bunch of brand new authors with my last name. And on and on.
> 
> Yeah, people are [expletive]s.


That's really crappy of them. =| I'm sorry.



Viola said:


> You and me both. So [expletive]ing p*ssed right now.


I wouldn't and couldn't blame you if you decided to go and do that. I've taken your suggests and advice and made it my own thing, and I'm super grateful for all the help that you and other amazing authors have given, for free. But you shouldn't have to tolerate or even deal with crappy people out right stealing from you.


----------



## Navigator

VMた said:


> Yep. I'm on a number of lists now with people who are very business-minded, and that's where the other strong sellers have gone. You might notice I rarely post here anymore. I'd like to help, but I don't want my crap stolen. Geez, is that REALLY asking too freaking much?


Not at all! It's perfectly reasonable. I'm sorry this is happening. I honestly just don't know what else to say or do. =(


----------



## bluwulf

Wow - this is just unbelievable.  

I'm so sorry this is what is happening in response to the help you have offered here.  Now I totally see why people who do well eventually leave kboards.  Sad.

The time they spent copying your stuff could have been spent researching genres to find a sweet spot or looking what kind of story they can make they think would work. 

Even so - their copies are just crappy copies and readers will see that.  But it still is upsetting when you have done all the work on your own to and you show a way for other people but they'd rather just copy your stuff cause it's too much work to be original.  You don't even have to be original - a major twist in a story that isn't being done would yield better results than making carbon copies.

And unfortunately because of what I've seen with you guys and Elle Casey, Russell, Joe Nobody and others too many to mention, I won't be putting my books in my sig, or giving out pen names or providing links.


----------



## StraightNoChaser

VMた said:


> I've seen people even hunt down my cover model AND HIS POSE to make a cover virtually identical to mine. (How much time did that take you, people)


I'm not trying to minimize your pain, but that cover model is pretty common (I used him before I ever saw your work and wound up on the top 100 new adult list right next to him in a different pose, on another author's book.) It probably didn't take much time to find him.

If it's any consolation, you two posting so much here, complete with strategies and books in your sig, is probably how you got invited to the "in crowd" lists. I sell at similar levels, but I'm quiet here and don't think I'll ever get to network with the cool kids until I start speaking up. But I feel like that leaves me open to copycats/attacks. The one time I did list my work, I got smacked with a series of one stars and upvotes that very day. It was too much of a co incidence. I just hope there is another way to find these groups, especially for the socially awkward like myself.


----------



## Lehane

VMた said:


> I've seen people steal the made-up, unique character names from Viola's books.


Holy crap-wow, I just found what you were talking about here (at least one case of it). That person was even a double offender on your list of grievances. People are crapsticks. Or twats -- thanks, Viola.

However, I stand by what I said early and bluwulf's statement. The copycats are never as good looking or polished. It's a money grab, no way they are producing quality work. A shame, considering that in the time it takes to create a rip off, they could have been crafting something unique AND viable. But that probably ain't their game. Gross, though, and unendingly frustrating.


----------



## Kenzi

Eep! It's really disturbing that things like this keep happening. You guys are incredibly generous with your time. It sucks that people out there take advantage of that.


----------



## wtvr

Chase said:


> The one time I did list my work, I got smacked with a series of one stars and upvotes that very day. It was too much of a co incidence. I just hope there is another way to find these groups, especially for the socially awkward like myself.


Yup. People are shitty.


----------



## Navigator

Chase said:


> If it's any consolation, you two posting so much here, complete with strategies and books in your sig, is probably how you got invited to the "in crowd" lists. I sell at similar levels, but I'm quiet here and don't think I'll ever get to network with the cool kids until I start speaking up. But I feel like that leaves me open to copycats/attacks. The one time I did list my work, I got smacked with a series of one stars and upvotes that very day. It was too much of a co incidence. I just hope there is another way to find these groups, especially for the socially awkward like myself.


I read about another member who stopped listing her own books in her sig for that very same reason. So even though I have not yet published (so very close though) I wont be sticking my books in my sig either.

Decided to change my username and removed my two sig links.



Viola said:


> Yep, and s/he took an ENTIRE book of another author. Check it quick:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KOS9U18
> 
> versus
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MRML4WM


Even the cover for the ripoff is terrible.

Edit: Woops fixed a mistake.


----------



## Lehane

Viola said:


> Yep, and s/he took an ENTIRE book of another author. Check it quick:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KOS9U18
> 
> versus
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MRML4WM


For a brief moment I was going to *try* to play devil's advocate (combining billionaire with werewolf doesn't sound that crazy, etc, etc), but aofjoaksdfajksd the first scene is the same! Same setting, same introduction, just not as interesting! COME ON.

I'm offended by all of this nonsense for many reasons, and a very small part of that is being gobsmacked by how bad people are at stealing.

ETA: ...who is Mr. Beady Man?


----------



## Atunah

He is on a lot of historical romances too, I swear he looks like that same guy. Often laying down.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

I always have this sinking feeling when I read this kind of treatment of authors who are generous and successful. I hate what it does for the givers. And, I'll be honest, I hate that it means the boards will probably use yet another (or two or three) of the mighty resources that we have here. I value the wisdom here and in several other threads, but it usually means the generous thread-starters are attacked or somehow brutalized. It's just so wrong.


----------



## Lehane

Viola said:


> I'm every werewolf ever. Rawr.


I am intimidated and disturbed by his I-guess-he's-moderately-handsome wet haired stare.


----------



## Indiecognito

> Not very nice of me to say this? Tough titties. I'm getting a bit tired of the people who think that my genre is why I'm selling. IT'S NOT.
> 
> If you're flailing in the dark, your sales aren't going to be good, no matter what the genre. THINK about what you're doing. PLAN it. RESEARCH it. And "research" does not mean "copy."


Hi guys,

the reason I don't post---the reason I don't even use my pen name(s) is all of this.

To anyone reading this thread: copying won't give you anything like longevity. You need to think outside the box.

To anyone thinking about starting such a thread in future: be really wary. Since day one I've winced when I see this thread and its view numbers. What's happened is that the market has become saturated with Rivard lookalike-serials and it's no good for anyone. Finest form of flattery aside, I've seen plenty of reviews by people saying things like "I already read this book when it was called _______." Be careful. Be original.

Years ago was a post on Reddit, I think, by a guy who'd had his first $1000 day selling ebooks. Fortunately I don't recall his name. This began a flood of copycats. People who saw a gold rush and jumped in. But a whole lot of books that are virtually identical helps no one. Unfortunately here what's happened is that Viola's been punished for her willingness to share. In that regard she's a bigger man than I. I wouldn't offer my titles or my ideas. I will happily tell a stranger how to publish, and even give tips on visibility. But I will not instruct them to follow my lead, because that hurts my sales, potentially.

I wouldn't be entirely sad if this thread disappeared. There's great advice in it but there are plenty of silent parties reading it, imitating and waiting for cash to roll in. I'm in the same boat---I've been publishing in the paranormal genre for some time and I have to circumnavigate the effects of fast-publishing serial writers now. It puts pressure on a lot of people.


----------



## StraightNoChaser

That sucks VM.

As for those two books Viola linked, I just skimmed the samples and it doesn't seem like the author actually copied the story word for word. Right? Is it ripped off scene by scene? It seems like that would take more time that just coming up with something original, although if you're not a particularly creative person...

Amazon won't do anything unless it's outright plagiarism I think. It seems like this kind of thing would happen regardless of an author's participation on forums. Look at all the fifty shades knockoffs. Anybody who lurks here has some idea how much money someone is making by looking at the ranks. I'm just waiting for someone to "reinvent" my books.

I wonder if it's because they are short works. For me, they'd have to rewrite three 100K+ novels. "Spinning" a 20K installment is a lot quicker payoff.

I hope you this doesn't radically affect your sales


----------



## Sylvia R. Frost

I'm sorry. :-(
It makes me so sad that you guys are getting copied.
But in the end I think the cream will rise.
I hope.


----------



## Tasha Black

I have to come clean:

I chose my name before I ever joined Kboards, based on Orphan Black (the best show on TV.)

And I did use Viola's cover designer, because she recommended her highly in a previous post. But I specifically tried to get something that would not look like a copy. No swirly script, no hunky guys, something with more of a magic feel, since that plays into my story.

I also tried to write the most original story I could. (Given the admittedly crowded genre) Female wolf, who is also a witch, in world where wolves hate magic, trying to reconcile the two halves to find her true place in the pack. 

I love you guys! And I love this place!!

Please don't hate me!!!!!


----------



## Lehane

Indiecognito said:


> I wouldn't offer my titles or my ideas. I will happily tell a stranger how to publish, and even give tips on visibility. But I will not instruct them to follow my lead, because that hurts my sales, potentially.


I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with illuminating people on how to go the serial route. It's merely a format, an interesting one that some readers like (I do!), and the OP is a great summary of what to do in serials. Viola never targeted her advice even toward PNR, and definitely not her specific topic within PNR. I don't think any of the OP encouraged someone to follow her wolfie lead. If people just followed the advice within the post, I suspect the copy-cats would be doing much better than they probably are having stolen plots/names/etc.

I think this thread is fantastically helpful and *should* be/have been broad enough to avoid a flood of direct copycats, because the romance serial trend was growing anyway. Of course, when combined with the titles in the signatures, that apparently went awry. Blagh.


----------



## StraightNoChaser

VMた said:


> That's still plagiarism, and flagrant. Lots of people think that you can just take a story that's popular and massage it a bit and rewrite it and it's yours. It's not.


That's what sucks. It's not technically copyright infringement, so there's nothing anyone can really do to get it taken down.


----------



## justagirl

*Hugs*

I'm really sorry that you guys have to deal with the copycats and generally mean-spirited people. 

(...I might have just changed my name to something that's not recognizable with a simple search because of that... hope that there's not another "justagirl" on the forums or I'll need to change it again, yeah?)

This thread has been so inspirational and helpful. It's what convinced me to give my serial a go, and I'm definitely grateful! It's a shame that people would rather steal than put in some honest work. I've been plagiarized before and it's never a fun thing. 

Indiecognito, I think you're talking about "throwaway_writer". I read his AMA, too - he's another guy I owe credit to. I think he was pretty careful not to talk about specifics, though, so that there was less chance of someone just copying him directly.


----------



## Indiecognito

> Of course, when combined with the titles in the signatures, that apparently went awry. Blagh.


Yep, there's the rub, sadly. It's the "What's the quickest way from A to B" syndrome. I wish everyone the very best. I'm not surprised this has happened, and it's really unfortunate. It'll keep happening, too. In the same way that TV shows try and profit off others' success. Funny thing is that those shows rarely make it.


----------



## MsTee

VMた said:


> So something like Salome Rivers. I bet there are none of those. Sabrina Storm. Whatever.


*goes off to namecheap.com*

*purchases salomerivers.com, salomerivers.ca, salomerivers.net, salomerivers.co.uk, and salomerivers.biz because why not*

I have been a lurker for a while now. I have been reading this thread since its very first post, and even saved it on my computer. The advice and information offered in this thread is, IMO, probably way more worthwhile than I've ever received in all the other threads I've read combined. I'm sorry to see these things happen. It's not new. Every so often I come on here and read about another successful author leaving Kboards because people are dicks. :/


----------



## StraightNoChaser

VMた said:


> I'll soon bet getting my lawyer to draft takedown notices. Amazon doesn't play with that when you do it the right way.


I'm really curious how this will work out and if it does work, I hope you post the results to discourage this kind of behavior.

I know you can't copy storylines, but I'm pretty sure it has to be *very* close, that's why I was wondering if the whole story was ripped scene by scene. I remember reading an article about two people who came up with "All dogs go to heaven" at the same time. One sued the other, but the judge said they were dissimilar enough, if I recall.


----------



## Redacted1111

Post removed due to acute paranoia of Kboards.


----------



## Tasha Black

VMた said:


> The one that really p*ssed me off was Clarissa. I figures yours could be chance. It's not an uncommon name...
> 
> So something like Salome Rivers. I bet there are none of those. Sabrina Storm. Whatever. (I'm making those up without checking, but you get the idea.)


Thank you, VM. And you are so right, I had no idea how common the name was until I posted my first book and then literally could not find it.

I have to agree with Ms. Tee, your Salome Rivers is a REALLY good name! If you publish as Salome Rivers it almost doesn't matter what you write, I'm gonna buy it!

And you are correct, a good lawyer letter ought to set the other situation straight. Amazon doesn't want to bother with legal problems just to hold onto a title with typos in the blurb.

Again, thank you for your advice and guidance.


----------



## OW

How similar are these two books?


----------



## Chrisbwritin

To be clear here, I don't think anyone is mad because of a similarity. In romance, and especially once you get into sub-genres, certain things are a given. There are tropes and well-trodden sub-genre staples that are going to be repeated time and time again, in new (and hopefully) fresh ways. Girl gets bit by wolf, doesn't know what happened, starts to change, or two people see each other and instantly, they realize they're one another's one true mate and on and on. There are going to be guys without shirts and moons and wolves on covers (and even sometimes the same stock photo, because let's face it, there are only so many) just like there were before Viola became an author. There are also going to be oddball names because these aren't guys, they're WOLF-SHIFTERS, after all. But what ISN'T cool is having the SAME weird names, or the SAME covers with only one or two elements tweaked, or the SAME storylines, not just one element, but lots of similar elements, in a way that, while it might not be actionable, you KNOW it when you see it. I think that's an important distinction. In Viola's case, we're talking about a character name (and spelling) that just is too odd to be coincidental within the same little niche. If you're in the industry and doing your homework in your genre (and you should be), you should be aware if there is a HUGE book out that you could be crossing the line with. If you're not, and it's brought to your attention, you should fix it. End of story.


----------



## Diane Patterson

VMた said:


> Um, yeah, that's infringement. There are writers who really do steal to that degree on KDP. Another one got caught and called out recently, too.


Dang. I have been missing a lot. Got a pointer or some search keywords for that thread?

Sigh. This place. SO USEFUL. And yet filled with so many boobytraps.

One of the best boards I was ever on required a minimal yearly reg fee -- maybe $30. (I don't remember.) But that was enough to serve as a massive filter for the drive-bys.


----------



## LBrent

Lehane said:


> I am intimidated and disturbed by his I-guess-he's-moderately-handsome wet haired stare.


I think it's his eyebrows. Very wolfish.

Isn't he often on the beach in dress slacks and an unbuttoned white tuxedo shirt, sometimes smoking a cigar?

Or is that his doppelganger?


----------



## LBrent

VMた said:


> That's still plagiarism, and flagrant. Lots of people think that you can just take a story that's popular and massage it a bit and rewrite it and it's yours. It's not.


Unless your initials are (cough) EL J (cough).


----------



## Redacted1111

Viola said:


> As someone who remembers who you are and knows your pen name (your secret's safe with me) you write very unique and interesting stories. You definitely do your own thing and more power to you.


----------



## Monique

I'm so sick of seeing that model.


----------



## Charmaine

I figured something was up, since I always look out for Viola's and VM's posts and they've been pretty quiet here lately.
I knew it was dangerous to keep your books in your sig, because whenever someone had a 'I'm doing awesome' post, sure enough there would be a flurry of one stars. 
That said, I never worried about someone stealing/ plagiarizing books! Sure a few coattail riders, but never out-right thieves!
This isn't doing my paranoia any favors


----------



## Navigator

VMた said:


> Go snatch up that twitter handle, too! LOL.


Actually I just went and finally got my own domain name for my website/blog (I already got Twitter). I've been meaning to do that for weeks now but was dragging my feet. Got it setup as well in a matter of minuets.



VMた said:


> Here's the newest plagiarism scandal to hit big:
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=shey+stahl&oq=shey+stah&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4678j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


Oh no.


----------



## wtvr

That was like a year ago? Was there one on this board? (I'm sorry, terribly curious. No excuse.)


----------



## Charmaine

VMた said:


> Nope. Not here. The Stahl one is exploding again because now she'd defending her theft. Pfffth.


Yeah she got back on her facebook again after having the not-stolen books returned to her amazon account.
Her fans are standing behind her! Do they not understand that it wasn't actually her work that they loved? 
Her story has changed way too many times. 
Went from the real writers were the thieves -> She was unaware of similarities -> She hired a ghost writer -> Ghostwriter was the theif


----------



## Lehane

VMた said:


> Nope. Not here. The Stahl one is exploding again because now she'd defending her theft. Pfffth.


Ahhh, delicious. A strange reverse of the Cassandra Clare (then Cassie Claire) plagiarism scandal back in the wee days of internet fandom, which was book > fanfic, not fanfic > book. The sad thing is that this stuff just happens over and over. Sometimes people learn their lesson, sometimes they don't.


----------



## Redacted1111

It's hard to pull myself away from the news and paranoia to write. My area is in the middle of multiple week rioting. I spent the morning listening to Anonymous videos about anarchy. I'm tired of watching one demographic of people shot down in the street. I know plagiarism is a major issue. And people like VM and Viola have had major balls to post so much here. I've just got this feeling like the world is falling apart around my ears. Plus, my teenager is going back to his dad's 2000 miles away tomorrow. It's hard to get motivated about fantastical creatures and their sex lives. lol. 

Tuesday, I'm back on the grind!


----------



## wtvr

Oh, thanks for the update. That Stahl thing is ridiculous too. It seems like rewriting someone else's book would be more work than writing your own!


----------



## OW

Viola said:


> Enough to be a topic of discussion on multiple writing forums. She also used both of my main character's names on two different stories and they ain't common names like Dan or Frank. Other books are probably knock offs as well, if anyone cares to look into it. I'm so done wasting energy there (unless it's to b*tch, that's cathartic for me).


I see, so this is a repeat occurrence and similarities beyond key trends you would normally see in the titles, covers and stories within genre's and sub genre's.

Actually, I don't know why I'm questioning it, when two seasoned pros who know what they are talking about (and much more than me) have both mentioned it. lol

In regards to covers in your signature/avatar, in case anyone doesn't realise, Googling your cover does bring up your posts here.


----------



## LBrent

LisaGloria said:


> It seems like rewriting someone else's book would be more work than writing your own!


This.


----------



## bluwulf

Viola said:


> I've given up on doing anything productive today. I'm too emotionally drained. Those names were just so meaningful to me, far beyond any books I've wrote. It may sound silly/lame, but of everything I've dealt with in my short but eventful career, this has been the most upsetting.


I'm so sorry. I wish there was something I could do.


----------



## AnyaWrites

Viola said:


> I've given up on doing anything productive today. I'm too emotionally drained. Those names were just so meaningful to me, far beyond any books I've wrote. It may sound silly/lame, but of everything I've dealt with in my short but eventful career, this has been the most upsetting.


Sending hugs and Vodka  your way. If I knew the name of that model I'd send him too, cause I really do think he's hot.


----------



## bluwulf

Jessica - it's this piece of shit.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KZ6LWTW


----------



## Lehane

Viola said:


> I've given up on doing anything productive today. I'm too emotionally drained. Those names were just so meaningful to me, far beyond any books I've wrote. It may sound silly/lame, but of everything I've dealt with in my short but eventful career, this has been the most upsetting.


I'm so sorry. I know how it is to get attached to seemingly "silly" pieces of your creations. I have names and characters I created when I was ten that would completely shatter me if someone stole. I know it probably doesn't help, but no way do the ripped-off versions of those characters compare to something created with a genuine touch.


----------



## Navigator

Viola said:


> I've given up on doing anything productive today. I'm too emotionally drained. Those names were just so meaningful to me, far beyond any books I've wrote. It may sound silly/lame, but of everything I've dealt with in my short but eventful career, this has been the most upsetting.


----------



## Chance

There is a reason why, when I do start getting published works out, I will not be putting them in my signature nor will I even expose any pen name(s) out publicly (for the time being). Even though I just joined Kboards not long ago, and having not thought of becoming a writer of any capacity 6 months ago, I studied enough threads to notice a trend of the most successful indie authors disappear from the forums because of various reasons. Besides the issue of plagiarism, there are also those who are jealous of others that are more successful than they are (most likely those who do not really post in the forums and/or just happened to come across this forum) and thus giving out less-than-stellar reviews and ratings.

The risk of being plagiarism and the risk of getting poor reviews (from the lazy and/or the jealous people) are reasons why I remain hesitant of posting any books that I will publish in the near future (if it does happen).

But I digress. I'd hate for those who are successful, that are extremely helpful in sharing their knowledge to newbies like me, to abandon Kboards because I myself had learned quite a bit from the success stories and tips since entertaining the thought of becoming an author a few months ago. Threads like these show invaluable insight and provide lessons to be learn when getting into the eBook business. For that, I thank the Kboards forums very much.

I hope for Viola and the other successful writers here (and to everyone else here as well) to continue contributing to this wonderful forum. When I get more experience under my belt, I certainly will (granted, with some anonymity). Oh, and I hope those copycats get what's coming for them (karma's an [expletive]).

Stand strong, fellow indies!


----------



## Redacted1111

Viola said:


> Thanks everyone. Hate to go all drama queen on you. It was extra frustrating because I just updated the darn thread even though I vowed I was done with it due to the previous issues. But meeting everyone [who came to Chicago] was just such a wonderful experience. Everyone had so many questions for me and I really felt compelled to do whatever I could to help, which pretty much just consists of keeping this thread fresh and current because I suck at giving advice in person, apparently. I really loved meeting all of you, I can't stress it enough.


Viola, you have given so much amazing advice and have been the sweetest person all this time. Just the advice about writing what you want to read has changed a lot for me. 

It might be better if you were to blog your advice. I know Kboards is convenient for a lot of people, and that isn't necessarily a good thing for you due to the nature of this place. If you blogged your advice, you would own the content. People would have to actively go to your blog to read your advice, thus demanding more commitment from the reader. There are a few great small blogs that I follow: thesecretlair and genrehobo are awesome. You could do something like that and protect yourself more from the A-holes.


----------



## Al Dente

Viola said:


> I've given up on doing anything productive today. I'm too emotionally drained. Those names were just so meaningful to me, far beyond any books I've wrote. It may sound silly/lame, but of everything I've dealt with in my short but eventful career, this has been the most upsetting.


I'm so sorry this happened to you. I don't write the most commercially viable books, but this sort of thing is why I don't put my books in my signature. It's also why I try to avoid talking about any success I might have and part of the reason I changed my forum name a few months ago. It really sucks that it has to be that way.


----------



## Jash

Viola said:


> Yep, and s/he took an ENTIRE book of another author. Check it quick:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KOS9U18
> 
> versus
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MRML4WM


That's the tip of the iceberg. Several others have been identified. Worth noting that it's not just PNR authors and it's not just kboards posters. There's no reason for this to stop anyone posting anywhere. It wouldn't have made any difference.


----------



## Navigator

Jash said:


> That's the tip of the iceberg. Several others have been identified. Worth noting that it's not just PNR authors and it's not just kboards posters. There's no reason for this to stop anyone posting anywhere. It wouldn't have made any difference.


You missed the part where other's have stated that simply putting their books in their signatures ended up causing them to suddenly have a bunch of 1 star reviews that get up-voted. =|


----------



## Al Dente

Puzzle said:


> You missed the part where other's have stated that simply putting their books in their signatures ended up causing them to suddenly have a bunch of 1 star reviews that get up-voted. =|


Yep. That also happened to me, except slightly different. My good reviews get down-voted. Even after taking them out of my signature, it has continued.


----------



## Jash

Puzzle said:


> You missed the part where other's have stated that simply putting their books in their signatures ended up causing them to suddenly have a bunch of 1 star reviews that get up-voted. =|


No I didn't. No books here VVVVV  Same reason. I was referring to this specific plagiarist. Unfortunately the latest of many.


----------



## S.E. Gordon

> Years ago was a post on Reddit, I think, by a guy who'd had his first $1000 day selling ebooks. Fortunately I don't recall his name.


Throwaway Writer.


----------



## Romance4Ever

lala said:


> I get copying. Someone talks about how they make a lot of money & are successful, people will try to emulate them. It's tough out here & people are struggling. Reading about overnight success stories & 10k/month royalty checks is going to entice desperate people.


Emulating someone who is successful by creating your own, but similar, work isn't plagiarism. Taking someone's book and rewriting it line by line is intellectual property copyright infringement. Amazon needs to start closing the accounts of these copycats or it will just continue happening.


----------



## Andie

How can you plagiarize someone and yet still manage to introduce that many typos? Sheesh.


----------



## Lehane

Viola said:


> The plot thickens:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JG31B4Q
> 
> versus
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M3J60XW


This is more blatant than the other ones. Also, the reviews don't surprise me -- three complaining about terrible writing/lack of editing, and two that make weird references to it being a good story "in a crowded market" and "for Amazon's publishing climate". It's just kind of weird, almost like the author put someone up to it, or it's part of some strange ring of people doing the same thing.


----------



## Diane Patterson

GAH. Can someone file a motion with Amazon already?


----------



## Andie

I reported the one you just posted. No idea if it'll do anything, but maybe it'll get them to look at it.


----------



## OW

Viola said:


> Yeah, note how both of the 5 stars are not only Unverified, but also reviewed several of this author's books and nothing else in the genre.


Have you read those reviews?


----------



## Going Incognito

Kalypsō said:


> It's hard to pull myself away from the news and paranoia to write. My area is in the middle of multiple week rioting. I spent the morning listening to Anonymous videos about anarchy. I'm tired of watching one demographic of people shot down in the street. I know plagiarism is a major issue. And people like VM and Viola have had major balls to post so much here. I've just got this feeling like the world is falling apart around my ears. Plus, my teenager is going back to his dad's 2000 miles away tomorrow. It's hard to get motivated about fantastical creatures and their sex lives. lol.
> 
> Tuesday, I'm back on the grind!


Holy crap, you're in the middle of all that? That looks crazy. How close are you to Ferguson?


----------



## Redacted1111

Jamie Klaire said:


> Holy crap, you're in the middle of all that? That looks crazy. How close are you to Ferguson?


I'm about forty miles south in south city St. Louis. It feels like we are on the verge of revolution even though my neighborhood is completely normal. I feel so appalled at the militarization tactics used by the police. I am appalled that this is the forth unarmed African American man to be killed by police in the last thirty days. Because of the kind of city Ferguson is, and the history of racism and police brutality there, it was a powder keg waiting to explode.

To make this about writing, much of what I write about has undertones criticizing the military industrial complex that creates situations like the one in Ferguson. (Trying not to be political.) I believe in social justice.


----------



## Miss Tarheel

Viola I just want to say that I too have found this thread to be invaluable.  I'm releasing my first serial at the end of the month and what you've said has really helped me prep so far. So thank you for taking the time to write everything out.


----------



## RachelMeyers

Ugh, I am so sorry to see this!  Just another one who wanted to chime in with thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread, I really have found it inspiring and encouraging.  I'm hoping to launch my first serial in the next couple of months in a different genre but even so this thread has been so, so useful.  Thankyou, and I'm sorry this is happening!


----------



## Jash

Yo Baby Yo said:


> GAH. Can someone file a motion with Amazon already?


The author of the book Viola linked is aware of it. A couple more have been identified and the authors are aware of it (for one of them it's the second time she's been hit by a totally different plagarizer. Ultimately it's up to them to take it up with Amazon (and I know two of them have). In the past people have had mixed success doing this.

Unfortunately fighting this can be pretty time consuming and stressful and some people just don't think it's worth the effort. It would be nice to think these people don't get away with it long enough to get paid, but a lot of the time they do.

Plenty probably go without being detected.


----------



## Carradee

Jash said:


> Unfortunately fighting this can be pretty time consuming and stressful and some people just don't think it's worth the effort. It would be nice to think these people don't get away with it long enough to get paid, but a lot of the time they do.
> 
> Plenty probably go without being detected.


I've heard of at least one case, too, where the plagiarizer had better sales (judging from the sales ranking) than the original writer.


----------



## KevinMcLaughlin

Viola, sorry to hear that you're having that happen to you. I can't imagine how much that has to suck.  =(

On the flip side, I'll add my voice to those saying a big "THANK YOU!" for the advice you offer. It's hugely helpful, and very much appreciated. People like you are awesome.


----------



## Donald Rump

> How can you plagiarize someone and yet still manage to introduce that many typos? Sheesh.


Pure stupidity!


----------



## Going Incognito

Kalypsō said:


> I'm about forty miles south in south city St. Louis. It feels like we are on the verge of revolution even though my neighborhood is completely normal. I feel so appalled at the militarization tactics used by the police. I am appalled that this is the forth unarmed African American man to be killed by police in the last thirty days. Because of the kind of city Ferguson is, and the history of racism and police brutality there, it was a powder keg waiting to explode.
> 
> To make this about writing, much of what I write about has undertones criticizing the military industrial complex that creates situations like the one in Ferguson. (Trying not to be political.) I believe in social justice.


Wow. We've had a few issues like that, but nothing that exploded to the degree you are seeing. It's a crazy world right now, for sure. My thoughts are definitely with you. All of you.


----------



## riley_writes

Okay, first of all -- I am SO sorry for all the trouble you guys are having with plagiarism and copycats! That's awful and those people doing it should be ashamed of themselves. I'm new to these boards, and I can't tell you how invaluable the advice on this thread alone has been. So thank you, because even if you take down all you've offered, I've learned more than I could ever have figured out on my own. 

I'm not trying to turn the tides of the posts regarding outrage over the crappy people who steal things and pass them off as their own at ALL. But... I do have quite a few things I'm wondering about regarding serials and I'm really hoping for some advice.  I hope these aren't stupid questions/thoughts — but go gentle on me, I'm a complete newbie! (Not to writing, but to self pubbing). Basically, this is some of what I'm planning/considering, and I would love feedback to any part of it — or all. 

I have a sexy romance novel I plan to release (serialized in three acts) starting in November. (Two weeks between each release — or would three be better? Each act will already be written and edited before I release the first one so I won't be rushing to complete anything.) I would like to use the pricing model A described (Act #1 free, #2 99c, #3 $2.99) but here are my questions about that:

How do I make Act I free? I know I can't use Kindle Select if I go this route, if I want it to be free for more than five days. But how do I start out with it free if (from what I've read) I can't price it lower than 99c when I upload it to Amazon? Do I upload it to the other non-Amazon venues and price it free there and then list it on the "Make It Free" thread and just hope and pray Amazon will match it? And what do I do to promote it in the meantime, since I can't market it as free unless I know it actually will be… Or should I use Select and just promote it for free for the first five of the ninety days and then price it at 99c for the rest of the time? 

Each act of the novel will be between 25k-30k words — and I see that pricing as low as 99c for anything that long isn't recommended, but I'm thinking because I'll be a debut author, it's still probably a good idea for the second act because readers won't really know me yet. And maybe down the road I can up the price?

Then there's the Kindle Select option, which I'm struggling with even more than just trying to figure out if I should use it for the first act or not. What about the next two acts? I've read tons of the posts in these boards and there seems to be a fairly even divide between those who think it's worth it, and those who don't. I change my mind every other day about whether or not to do it. But since I have three Acts coming out in short succession, would it make sense to do select for all of them, or just the first, or none? Ugh, sorry, my mind is spinning over all the choices. Maybe do select for all three at first, and then after the each ninety day period ends, upload each act to the other non-Amazon venues available? 

Once I get all of the above figured out, there's more. I have several companion novels to write, and I would like to release them as full books, which means I'd also like this first novel to be available as in that format as well. A month or so before the first companion is released I plan to bundle all three acts of this first novel of and sell them as a complete book — maybe with a sneak peek or the first chapter of the upcoming companion novel at the end. That being said, when I bundle the acts together, I don't know how to price it… I would welcome thoughts here, too.

Okay, well, I could keep going on, but this is basically a novel of a post. I apologize if I've mishandled any sort of etiquette in asking so many questions in one spot.


----------



## Navigator

Riley_Writes said:


> How do I make Act I free? I know I can't use Kindle Select if I go this route, if I want it to be free for more than five days. But how do I start out with it free if (from what I've read) I can't price it lower than 99c when I upload it to Amazon? Do I upload it to the other non-Amazon venues and price it free there and then list it on the "Make It Free" thread and just hope and pray Amazon will match it?


Yes, do that.



> And what do I do to promote it in the meantime, since I can't market it as free unless I know it actually will be... Or should I use Select and just promote it for free for the first five of the ninety days and then price it at 99c for the rest of the time?


If this is your first series, don't go into Select. Branch out, sell your books at other places.



> Each act of the novel will be between 25k-30k words -- and I see that pricing as low as 99c for anything that long isn't recommended, but I'm thinking because I'll be a debut author, it's still probably a good idea for the second act because readers won't really know me yet. And maybe down the road I can up the price?


Meh well I'm releasing a trilogy that's also between 25-33k words and I'll be charging $2.99 for books 2 and 3 while the first is free. Also a new author. Don't undersell your work just because you're new.



> Then there's the Kindle Select option, which I'm struggling with even more than just trying to figure out if I should use it for the first act or not. What about the next two acts? I've read tons of the posts in these boards and there seems to be a fairly even divide between those who think it's worth it, and those who don't. I change my mind every other day about whether or not to do it. But since I have three Acts coming out in short succession, would it make sense to do select for all of them, or just the first, or none? Ugh, sorry, my mind is spinning over all the choices. Maybe do select for all three at first, and then after the each ninety day period ends, upload each act to the other non-Amazon venues available?


You're going to most likely get differing opinions, but I say avoid it for now. You're going to have just three books out at first. Viola made the same mistake with going into Select first and now she advises against it, and for good reason.



> Once I get all of the above figured out, there's more. I have several companion novels to write, and I would like to release them as full books, which means I'd also like this first novel to be available as in that format as well. A month or so before the first companion is released I plan to bundle all three acts of this first novel of and sell them as a complete book -- maybe with a sneak peek or the first chapter of the upcoming companion novel at the end. That being said, when I bundle the acts together, I don't know how to price it... I would welcome thoughts here, too.


You mean bundle your trilogy? Well if you price them as free, $2.99, and $2.99 individually, I'd sell the bundle at either $3.99 or $4.99.


----------



## RTEdwins

Viola said:


> _Book #1 Free
> Book #2 99¢
> Subsequent Books $2.99_
> This is a wonderful model for a three-part serial. I structured my second serial like this and the benefit is that you'll weed out the freebie crowd with the second book and by the time readers get to the third book it's pretty much just people who are wholly invested in the story, meaning you won't get (too many) hate reviews.


This whole post was extremely helpful and couldn't have filtered to the top of the forum at a better time as I'm about to start my very first serial. Have no fear, it's not Romance and there will be no character name stealing going on, but I have been looking for information about serials and how they are supposed to function. Luckily I was approaching it almost as if it were a TV show, as you mentioned with the bit about Sliders. I was also toying around with pricing structures. I suspect I will do something very similar to what you said above (quoted) except since this is my first run, I'm thinking I'll keep all the subsequent books at $0.99 until I can build a fan base.

thank you for updating this and congrats on your success. =)


----------



## RTEdwins

Viola said:


> I'm pretty sure all of the books are knockoffs of something, I just don't have the time/patience to match them up. It may actually warrant a case to Zon. I don't think they'll actually do anything, but I'll probably submit a ticket regardless.


As a person who works in Intellectual Property Law, if you are finding people blatantly ripping off your work, don't file a complaint with Amazon, consult a lawyer and sue them. If you are making a pretty penny off of your work then you likely have grounds for damages and these people need to understand that what they are doing is illegal and should be stopped at once.

I know a lot of IP Lawyers if you need a referral. you can PM if you have interest

(I haven't read every comment on here so maybe this wasn't referring to your book, but my comment stands the same if you've found people ripping your works off)


----------



## Rachel E. Rice

Thanks for the information Viola. I read your previous posts, where you discussed how well your books were doing. Because I wanted to find out why others were buying your books, I tried your first book and read it. I couldn't put it down until I had finished it. It was a great read and satisfying. I liked it so much that I purchased more books. You have found your voice and it is unique. Your books are erotic without being over the top and I enjoyed them.


----------



## riley_writes

Thank you, Puzzle!



Puzzle said:


> Yes, do that.
> 
> If this is your first series, don't go into Select. Branch out, sell your books at other places.
> 
> Meh well I'm releasing a trilogy that's also between 25-33k words and I'll be charging $2.99 for books 2 and 3 while the first is free. Also a new author. Don't undersell your work just because you're new.
> 
> You're going to most likely get differing opinions, but I say avoid it for now. You're going to have just three books out at first. Viola made the same mistake with going into Select first and now she advises against it, and for good reason.
> 
> You mean bundle your trilogy? Well if you price them as free, $2.99, and $2.99 individually, I'd sell the bundle at either $3.99 or $4.99.


----------



## allurapub

Viola and VM,

I am SO sorry to hear of what you are going through. As a new author I find it disturbing that some have the audacity to blatantly rip someone off like that. I have learned so much from this thread alone. Thank you for sharing.  

Jessica


----------



## Alyson

Viola and VM: I'm deeply sorry that the generosity you've both shown has been so poorly rewarded.

I, for one, am very thankful for all of your shared wisdom.


----------



## Navigator

Riley_Writes said:


> Thank you, Puzzle!


You're welcome!


----------



## Jacqueline_Sweet

Viola said:


> The best part is, every time I see him I think of Jacqueline's 50 Shades of Gay Tentacles.


That's so awesome, but I don't think I even used this same Mister Beady Man.

Also--jeez--I go away on vacation for two weeks and suddenly everything has gone terrible around here. I can't believe the shamelessness of the copiers.


----------



## Donald Rump

The one-star reviews are starting to pile up for Clarissa Black. And in case anyone missed this:

http://aubreyrosewrites.com/ive-been-plagiarized/


----------



## Romance4Ever

RTEdwins said:


> As a person who works in Intellectual Property Law, if you are finding people blatantly ripping off your work, don't file a complaint with Amazon, consult a lawyer and sue them. If you are making a pretty penny off of your work then you likely have grounds for damages and these people need to understand that what they are doing is illegal and should be stopped at once.
> 
> I know a lot of IP Lawyers if you need a referral. you can PM if you have interest
> 
> (I haven't read every comment on here so maybe this wasn't referring to your book, but my comment stands the same if you've found people ripping your works off)


It's difficult to sue someone who is hidden behind a pen name with no contact information. And for most authors, the route is cost prohibitive and the thieves know it! That's why your best bet is to try and cripple their income stream by filing a copyright infringement claim with Amazon.


----------



## Navigator

Donald Rump said:


> The one-star reviews are starting to pile up for Clarissa Black. And in case anyone missed this:
> 
> http://aubreyrosewrites.com/ive-been-plagiarized/


I'm glad she's been made aware and hopefully Clarissa gets taken down.


----------



## Going Incognito

Saw this on my FB feed, figured it belonged here:


"This is how the plagiarizers are doing it. This is an actual job ad on Odesk, a freelance site, posted on August 5th. There are LOTS of these ads on freelance sites.

Job Description

THIS JOB IS FOR AN EBOOK REWRITE.

NO SPINNING SOFTWARE ALLOWED...MANUAL REWRITE ONLY!

PASS COPYSCAPE, ETC AS 100% UNIQUE CONTENT

YOU WILL BE GIVEN DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS AND MUST EXECUTE THEM WITHIN THE ALLOTTED SCHEDULE.

RECURRING REWRITE OPPORTUNITY TO QUALIFIED WRITER/S

You must be able to effectively research the niche
and RE-write to make the e-Book unique and COPY SCAPE PASS. Sometimes I will provide an existing ebook that I want you to rewrite. You must have good grammar and spelling as well.

I'm willing to pay a fixed amount $20 per e-Book and I am looking to build a long-term relationship with someone that can provide exceptional quality eBooks for me quickly (MUST deliver each completed book in 10 days or less).

Please include a sample of your re-writing jobs (if possible) for me to review."


----------



## Navigator

Jamie Klaire said:


> Saw this on my FB feed, figured it belonged here:
> 
> "This is how the plagiarizers are doing it. This is an actual job ad on Odesk, a freelance site, posted on August 5th. There are LOTS of these ads on freelance sites.
> 
> Job Description
> 
> THIS JOB IS FOR AN EBOOK REWRITE.
> 
> NO SPINNING SOFTWARE ALLOWED...MANUAL REWRITE ONLY!
> 
> PASS COPYSCAPE, ETC AS 100% UNIQUE CONTENT
> 
> YOU WILL BE GIVEN DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS AND MUST EXECUTE THEM WITHIN THE ALLOTTED SCHEDULE.
> 
> RECURRING REWRITE OPPORTUNITY TO QUALIFIED WRITER/S
> 
> You must be able to effectively research the niche
> and RE-write to make the e-Book unique and COPY SCAPE PASS. Sometimes I will provide an existing ebook that I want you to rewrite. You must have good grammar and spelling as well.
> 
> I'm willing to pay a fixed amount $20 per e-Book and I am looking to build a long-term relationship with someone that can provide exceptional quality eBooks for me quickly (MUST deliver each completed book in 10 days or less).
> 
> Please include a sample of your re-writing jobs (if possible) for me to review."


Ugh, those really shouldn't even be allowed on those kinds of sites.


----------



## jcalloway

Jamie Klaire said:


> Saw this on my FB feed, figured it belonged here:
> 
> "This is how the plagiarizers are doing it. This is an actual job ad on Odesk, a freelance site, posted on August 5th. There are LOTS of these ads on freelance sites.
> 
> Job Description
> 
> THIS JOB IS FOR AN EBOOK REWRITE.
> 
> NO SPINNING SOFTWARE ALLOWED...MANUAL REWRITE ONLY!
> 
> PASS COPYSCAPE, ETC AS 100% UNIQUE CONTENT
> 
> YOU WILL BE GIVEN DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS AND MUST EXECUTE THEM WITHIN THE ALLOTTED SCHEDULE.
> 
> RECURRING REWRITE OPPORTUNITY TO QUALIFIED WRITER/S
> 
> You must be able to effectively research the niche
> and RE-write to make the e-Book unique and COPY SCAPE PASS. Sometimes I will provide an existing ebook that I want you to rewrite. You must have good grammar and spelling as well.
> 
> I'm willing to pay a fixed amount $20 per e-Book and I am looking to build a long-term relationship with someone that can provide exceptional quality eBooks for me quickly (MUST deliver each completed book in 10 days or less).
> 
> Please include a sample of your re-writing jobs (if possible) for me to review."


Jamie, I think this deserves its own thread. Not everyone checks in on this one since not everyone is interested in serials or romance, but this is the kind of thing that we should all be aware of, especially if it's becoming trendy enough for there to be multiple ads across multiple sites.

(Just spent a little while skimming the writing ads on Odesk. I feel dirty.)


----------



## Going Incognito

Good idea. Coming up.


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## CristinaRayne

Jamie Klaire said:


> Saw this on my FB feed, figured it belonged here:
> 
> "This is how the plagiarizers are doing it. This is an actual job ad on Odesk, a freelance site, posted on August 5th. There are LOTS of these ads on freelance sites.
> 
> Job Description
> 
> THIS JOB IS FOR AN EBOOK REWRITE.
> 
> NO SPINNING SOFTWARE ALLOWED...MANUAL REWRITE ONLY!
> 
> PASS COPYSCAPE, ETC AS 100% UNIQUE CONTENT
> 
> YOU WILL BE GIVEN DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS AND MUST EXECUTE THEM WITHIN THE ALLOTTED SCHEDULE.
> 
> RECURRING REWRITE OPPORTUNITY TO QUALIFIED WRITER/S
> 
> You must be able to effectively research the niche
> and RE-write to make the e-Book unique and COPY SCAPE PASS. Sometimes I will provide an existing ebook that I want you to rewrite. You must have good grammar and spelling as well.
> 
> I'm willing to pay a fixed amount $20 per e-Book and I am looking to build a long-term relationship with someone that can provide exceptional quality eBooks for me quickly (MUST deliver each completed book in 10 days or less).
> 
> Please include a sample of your re-writing jobs (if possible) for me to review."


That is completely disgusting!


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## Shelley K

LisaGloria said:


> holy [crap] - who would do that? and for $20


People who desperately need that $20, I guess. There will always be people doing this stuff. Also, $20 American is a full day's pay for some people in the Philippines. Crank several copies out a month, it's letting getting several extra days of work.

There are several people the plagiarists discussed in this thread have copied, multiple times. Many, many erotica and erotic romance authors. It's not like they're just targeting a couple of people here. They're copying successes, probably with a whole crew of writers working on it. Taking it personally makes no sense, FWIW.


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## swolf

Viola, I'm not sure you can blame this plagiarism on this thread or your presence here on KBoards.  I've had two books ripped off in the same manner, and the pen name I used was never revealed in this or any other forum. The only thing that set the books apart was that they appeared in the best-seller lists on Amazon. 

These jerks copy success, and unfortunately because of your huge success, you're going to be a target.

Hope it all gets straightened out.


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## bubbagump22

swolf said:


> Viola, I'm not sure you can blame this plagiarism on this thread or your presence here on KBoards. I've had two books ripped off in the same manner, and the pen name I used was never revealed in this or any other forum. The only thing that set the books apart was that they appeared in the best-seller lists on Amazon.
> 
> These jerks copy success, and unfortunately because of your huge success, you're going to be a target.
> 
> Hope it all gets straightened out.


The plagiarizer(s), while unscrupulous, are likely semi-adept internet marketers who can spot profitable niches. There are whole communities/forums, much like this one, but dedicated to shady internet marketing. Rewriting articles, books, outsourcing crappy work, copying competition, etc. is not a new thing nor is gaming the Kindle marketplace. What I think IS semi new is their foray into fiction instead of nonfiction. If this thread was in fact the cause of the plagiarism, it was not from a fellow writer, but from a marketer doing research.

The silver lining in this is that authors of legitimate work, mainly those writing niche fiction, are now aware that they need to check their 'competitors' closely and report or publicly out the copiers. If Amazon is slow to react, or does not at all, a rash of 1 star reviews can go a long way. Obviously, one should tread lightly with this and NOT broadcast inept but original imitations, only suspected marketers.


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## Honeybun

I'm very happy to hear that there is a likely plausible explanation as to how/why/who plagiarized your work and others.  I do wish there was as likely an explanation as to why authors often get hit with negative reviews after sharing successes on kboards.


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## Navigator

Honeybun said:


> I'm very happy to hear that there is a likely plausible explanation as to how/why/who plagiarized your work and others. I do wish there was as likely an explanation as to why authors often get hit with negative reviews after sharing successes on kboards.


Jealousy? That's the only logical reason I can come up with, aside from some people just being naturally mean towards those who do well.


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## Honeybun

Honeybun said:


> I'm very happy to hear that there is a likely plausible explanation as to how/why/who plagiarized your work and others. I do wish there was as likely an explanation as to why authors often get hit with negative reviews after sharing successes on kboards.





Puzzle said:


> Jealousy? That's the only logical reason I can come up with, aside from some people just being naturally mean towards those who do well.


I guess I should clarify. I meant good a explanation for negative reviews happening following success that did not point a finger at this site.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter

Thanks for the updated info Viola! I write in a different genre, but I have some fantasy novellas coming up that I can definitely use this info for.

Good luck with the Nasties out there and congrats on all your success.


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## Adrian P

Wow!  I hadn't seen this before, but I'm sure happy to see it now.
This is great stuff to know.
And, as you said, adjust for myself, since I don't plan to be writing in the romance or erotica genres.


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## Tasha Black

I'm going change topics briefly to thank everyone who encouraged me to contact Amazon directly rather than just clicking through the "tell us about a lower price"! I contacted them twice and the day after the second contact my first episode finally went permafree. 

This is my first time publishing anything and although everyone said this was the case, I was amazed to see how many people will download a free copy compared to how many were willing to pay $0.99. I wouldn't have thought a price of less than a dollar would really stand in anyone's way - the real cost at that price point being the time the person invests in reading it. But I guess in this day and age people just search for free stuff. 

Per everyone's advice, I did put up the second episode right away. 

AC, as you suggested, I also went ahead and put up the rest of the series for pre-order too. It looks like either no one has pre-ordered anything yet OR I'll have no idea if anyone pre-orders anything until it comes out. But VM, Jesse, AC and Will I will absolutely keep you all posted here on how it works out.

Jesse, I think you were on deadline last time you posted. How did it go?


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## Will C. Brown

Tasha Black said:


> AC, as you suggested, I also went ahead and put up the rest of the series for pre-order too. It looks like either no one has pre-ordered anything yet OR I'll have no idea if anyone pre-orders anything until it comes out. But VM, Jesse, AC and Will I will absolutely keep you all posted here on how it works out.


Tasha, I see that the Amazon ranks of the two bundled sets are at ~105K as of this writing, so it sounds like they've at least had one sale each at this point. By the way, I like the branding of your covers. Good luck!


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

I was poking around the kdp board, looking for an answer to a minor question, and I spotted this:

https://kdp.amazon.com/community/thread.jspa?threadID=203622&tstart=0

Kind of interesting in light of the recent problems you awesome folks have had--especially the Zon's response.


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## Tasha Black

Thanks for noticing the charts, Will! And I'm glad you like the covers - I was going for something that works in the genre but with a female-werewolf/witch feel to it. 

SevenDays, wow! I just checked the Amazon store for the author mentioned here. At least one of the books that was discussed on this thread is gone from her page. It's good to see that there is some real response to theft. Hopefully no one had to pay for an attorney to make that happen.


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## Andie

The plagiarist mentioned before seems to be down to a single title on Amazon now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CristinaRayne

Madison Johns said:


> BookBub updates. Yes, I most likely got my spot because I'm a USA Today Bestseller, although not in paranormal romance. Yes, I sold quite well, but not as well as my cozy mystery sells. Yes, I made it into the top 100 overall with an appearance at #60 and had a great author rank for both paranormal and science fiction. Unfortunately I didn't have any other paranormal books to sell in my backlist. I tripled my money back because paranormal romance is a cheaper BB ad than is mystery. I loved writing a serial, but what I've found is that as Viola pointed out, it's not always everyone's style. Novels are more my style and work best for me. Life has a way of getting in the way, and unless I was able to finish the entire serial I can't see myself stopping in the middle and trying to write the next book. I did go all out and spent quite a bit for my covers. Paranormal romance is a new genre for me, but I feel I needed the break from writing mystery. I'm now working on a new paranormal romance, but it a longer format. You just don't make much when you sell books at $0.99. I gave away arcs in the beginning and I do feel that's a great way to get started, but it seems like readers want everything for free and that not something I'm willing to do outside of early arc readers who have really helped me a lot.


Thanks for the info! Did you list for $.99? BookBub is something I may try on the bundle for my 1st serial, but as you mentioned, I'm waiting until I have a couple more titles in my backlist. Congrats on the success!


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## swolf

VMた said:


> "The story stayed in my head and I significantly altered it" <-- "I totally ripped off someone's book because I suck, and I don't understand why I didn't get away with it."


Yeah, I just commented on that.

By the way, just looking at the first few pages of that forum tells me it sucks as much as it used to.


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## Honeybun

swolf said:


> Yeah, I just commented on that.
> 
> By the way, just looking at the first few pages of that forum tells me it sucks as much as it used to.


Swolf, you were kind and gentle in your response to them. I want gore! Guts on the floor! I want disembowelment of the self-proclaimed story "alter"er!


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

VMた said:


> "The story stayed in my head and I significantly altered it" <-- "I totally ripped off someone's book because I suck, and I don't understand why I didn't get away with it."


Yeah, exactly. Cry me a freakin' river, thieving bottom-feeder.


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## Capella

SevenDays said:


> Yeah, exactly. Cry me a freakin' river, thieving bottom-feeder.


Yeah. Wow. I didn't like how long it took Amazon to take action against the books that were ripping of kboards authors, but at least they did. It's hard when people purposely make sure their stuff passes a plagiarism check. But this person on the other hand doesn't even seem to understand that what he/she did is stealing.


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## StraightNoChaser

Congrats on getting the plagiarist's "books" pulled from Amazon!!! 

I really didn't think the they would do anything and I'm so glad to be wrong!


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## OW

Are you feeling a bit better about things now Viola?


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## Ros_Jackson

I'm really pleased they took the infringing books down. 

I wonder how they will deal with the duped customers? I guess whether they get their money back and pointed in the direction of the original works depends on whether Amazon thinks this is pending further investigation, or an open and shut case?


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## Shelley K

Ros_Jackson said:


> I wonder how they will deal with the duped customers? I guess whether they get their money back and pointed in the direction of the original works ....


*laughs uproariously*


----------



## unkownwriter

SevenDays said:


> I was poking around the kdp board, looking for an answer to a minor question, and I spotted this:
> 
> https://kdp.amazon.com/community/thread.jspa?threadID=203622&tstart=0
> 
> Kind of interesting in light of the recent problems you awesome folks have had--especially the Zon's response.


Similar attitude that I saw there when I first found those boards. Lots of people wondering why their PLR stuff was being pulled. Oy. Some folks just don't get it, always chasing the easy money scheme.

I've enjoyed this thread (though I have skipped a few pages), and it's sad that people like Viola and VM are being ripped off, getting bad reviews and other miseries for helping other writers.

Reading this thread and others have made me take another look at serialized work. I might give it a try later on this year. Thanks for all the helpful info and links.


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## I&#039;ve been burned

Tasha Black said:


> Jesse, I think you were on deadline last time you posted. How did it go?


Yes, I'm still here, lol. I met my deadline despite Part Four ending up at 20.5k words instead of the planned 16k. Now I'm doing all of the editor suggestions for Parts 3 & 4 (and just finished for my full-length shifter book too). Once that's done, I'll set up Part Four for preorder but not Part Three since I want to post that puppy as soon as it's ready. I have fans very much waiting for it. 

Nothing to really report except that I may sell 10k copies this month alone of my two serial parts. Yes, I'm super happy about this!  I'm already writing the next story arc of my serial. My goal is to have at least one part a month!


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## dianasg

Huh. Well this thread went sour fast!


----------



## MsTee

DianaGabriel said:


> Huh. Well this thread went sour fast!


As well as lost 5 pages fast...


----------



## Navigator

MsTee said:


> As well as lost 5 pages fast...


I'm thinking something happened, cause she changed her view-able username to "I Give Up" as well.

Oh dear. I hope she's okay. =(


----------



## Diane Patterson

Wow. Does seeing the first post of this thread now really make me depressed.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Oh crud. What happened now?


----------



## Kenzi

Man. What on earth happened?? I'm really glad I saved this thread a couple days ago. 

PSA to no one in particular (since I don't know what happened): Stop being jerks to those who are trying to help you. No one wins.


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## Honeybun

VMた said:


> Just more of the same, guys. Everybody has a breaking point. Sorry about that to those of you who weren't jerks.


VM, I'm glad you chimed in. Hearing from you helps to keep things positive and reassuring given the extreme measures that "I give up" has taken. I've only recently clued into this thread but her choice to leave in the manner she did paints an inspirational, hope giving, life building thread in a sad, gloomy tone and it sort of feels as if Elvis has left the building. It's not a happy thing.


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## Honeybun

VMた said:


> I kept the comments of mine that were the most helpful and the least genre-dependent.


^^ I really appreciate you doing that.


----------



## That Author

Another Perspective said:


> Words


Glad somebody took the time to say what I've been thinking.

Also, I would just like to point out that you can use Google image search to find the tens (or in the case of really popular images hundreds) of other covers that use your same cover model by plugging the *original* cover model image in to Google image search with the text 'book'. Doing that, I've only ever found one image that hadn't been used before, and that was only because it took some creative cropping to make the original usable as a cover. For example.


----------



## Jash

OK, that Image + Book google search thing is awesome!


----------



## Lehane

VMた said:


> And the one that swiped from her this time? It wasn't that they took the title. They basically rewrote the book, almost scene-for-scene, with a different animal.


After the CB issue, which was exactly that (and the elance posting to prove it), I just don't feel like KB was necessarily to blame here. It just seems like something that happens in this brave new world of indie publishing. Crappy, though.

I've been peeking in on her blog somewhat regularly, waiting to see if it'll progress. It'd be interesting to continue to hear her perspective.


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## Ann in Arlington

locking due to multiple reports -- it's a long thread so it may take some time to go though and see if any action is needed.

Plenty of other threads in the mean time.


edit: After discussion, we've decided to leave this thread locked but intact.


----------

