# January KU compensation way down? $0.0041149



## bang on the drum (Nov 2, 2015)

Haven't seen a thread on this yet. By my math, it's $0.0041149 for January.


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## GT59 (Jul 6, 2014)

I calculated the same thing


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## Mjcaan (Aug 22, 2013)

I'm kinda new to these threads, but why the drop?  Is it just Amazon's way of paying less, or is their revenue somehow being disrupted (less Prime members or usage)?
Thanks,
MJ


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

Since the rates are different by currency, here's the full list of what I have:

USD	0.004114919
GBP	0.002618874
EUR	0.003328479
CAD	0.004756605
INR	0.100760142
BRL	0.0109019

Some of the EUR sites are reporting a higher rate - the above is the Amazon.de rate as that's where I get almost all of my pages read.

No idea what's feeding this, but that is a massive drop. Over 10% across the board.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Hopefully Amazon has now turned up the temperature on the pot enough that the bigger frogs or lobsters decide to leave the pan!


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## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

Mjcaan said:


> I'm kinda new to these threads, but why the drop? Is it just Amazon's way of paying less, or is their revenue somehow being disrupted (less Prime members or usage)?
> Thanks,
> MJ


A possible reason could be the people that keep saying they're happy with KU--even when they keep dropping the rate, like now. 28% down from the beggining of KU2, 11% down from last month. That means each month you have to make even MORE to make the SAME. That's not much of an reward to me.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Plus, the competition is heating up. I've noticed a whole bunch of Allingham and Cadael mysteries in the best selling cozy list. The books are also available in KU.


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

Looks like we've found our new normal for KU -- .004 cents. They will likely keep it here, with a few ticks up or down, similar to how they operated with KU1's $1.35/borrow.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Boyd said:


> Get out now, before it's too late.
> 
> 
> 
> Leave more in the pot for those of us who stay in


I think that is a marvelous idea!


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

Boyd said:


> Get out now, before it's too late.
> 
> 
> 
> Leave more in the pot for those of us who stay in


Joke? Because we all know Amazon will simply just lower their payout pot to get to the spot where they want each per-read rate. How many people stay/leave really doesn't figure into it at all.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Anna Drake said:


> Plus, the competition is heating up. I've noticed a whole bunch of Allingham and Cadael mysteries in the best selling cozy list. The books are also available in KU.


Interesting - the Cafael are reissues from Open Road. I wonder if that means they are willing to take about 1.44 for a title priced $7.xx or if Amazon is doing a 90-day "supplement" for them, eating the difference between what a buy is and the approximate # of full reads. Ellis Peters/Edith Parteger is dead, so this would be her estate/heirs taking advice from Open Road. Definitely stiff competition BUT not informed competition since Open Road would be looking at X% off hundreds of classics they might have in KU and the author's estate would be looking at a much smaller catalog. Allingham is dead as well.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

new_writer said:


> Joke? Because we all know Amazon will simply just lower their payout pot to get to the spot where they want each per-read rate. How many people stay/leave really doesn't figure into it at all.


No, but it could increase the number of pages read for books that are competitive and all star bonuses for authors who are competitive.


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

mach 5 said:


> No, but it could increase the number of pages read for books that are competitive and all star bonuses for authors who are competitive.


In theory, sure, I guess.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Hmmm.  On the one hand, January was a record month for me so it's still a big payout.  On the other, that payout number does shave quite a few shekels off of what I'd been expecting, even rounding down.


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## TimWLong (Dec 3, 2013)

Ouch. I had a great January as well but this is not a good sign.


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## Mjcaan (Aug 22, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Hmmm. On the one hand, January was a record month for me so it's still a big payout. On the other, that payout number does shave quite a few shekels off of what I'd been expecting, even rounding down.


What do you consider big from a page reads standpoint? North of...?


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## Mjcaan (Aug 22, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think that is a marvelous idea!


Nah...I think KU is still a good strategy. I just need to add more works to the fire lol.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Mjcaan said:


> What do you consider big from a page reads standpoint? North of...?


Well, for me, this was north of 3 mil page reads in Jan.


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## GwynnEWhite (May 23, 2012)

At what point does KU not become a worthwhile/viable marketing strategy? This is the question I am asking myself. Not having ever been wide, I done gave the answer, and that frustrates me. What does everyone else think?


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## ShadyWolfBoy (Sep 23, 2015)

January was a good month for me, so I'm still perfectly happy to be in KU, though the impact of this versus my already conservative projection was unexpected.  (I forecast low and am used to getting to bump my KU figure when the real number comes in).

I wonder how much of this is due to the issue they were having with people setting up 25,000 KENPC books that read themselves with one click? If it was big enough to cause Amazon to re-calculate the KENPCs, I wouldn't be surprised if the impact was enough to noticeably increase the overall pages read.

Not relying on this, though.  My forecast number just went down some more.

...

Still looks better than being wide, have to say. OTOH, my genre isn't one that does very well wide.


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Well, for me, this was north of 3 mil page reads in Jan.


Holy smokes! You go, dude. That's awesome.


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

GwynnEWhite said:


> At what point does KU not become a worthwhile/viable marketing strategy? This is the question I am asking myself. Not having ever been wide, I done gave the answer, and that frustrates me. What does everyone else think?


This is a question that every writer asks here constantly looking for one answer, and usually gets 100 different answers from 100 different people, because we all have different experiences and different books and different results.

The very honest truth is, you just have to try it and see if it works for you or not.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

GwynnEWhite said:


> At what point does KU not become a worthwhile/viable marketing strategy? This is the question I am asking myself. Not having ever been wide, I done gave the answer, and that frustrates me. What does everyone else think?


The moment you actually consider the idea that there is no pot, never was, and that there is only what Amazon thinks Select authors will accept without leaving.

Not to stir the pot (pun intended) but if you are really treating this as a business you have to consider this as a possibility.


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## Mjcaan (Aug 22, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Well, for me, this was north of 3 mil page reads in Jan.


Wow! That's amazing and inspirational. I really need to get cranking if I want to get to that level!


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## GwynnEWhite (May 23, 2012)

Randall Wood said:


> The moment you actually consider the idea that there is no pot, never was, and that there is only what Amazon thinks Select authors will accept without leaving.
> 
> Not to stir the pot (pun intended) but if you are really treating this as a business you have to consider this as a possibility.


I agree. I am locked into a fixed set until January 2917. But if things continue like thus, I will bail then. It us just so enticing to try a wider market.


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## marla_m (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear the compensation factor has decreased, but I've made more $$ by this method than any other, and making a lot more in the pages-read than in sales. Can't complain yet. For me, KU is still the best game in town!


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

So, people are willing to accept less and less each month for their work, just because 'they're doing so well in KU'.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> The moment you actually consider the idea that there is no pot, never was, and that there is only what Amazon thinks Select authors will accept without leaving.
> 
> Not to stir the pot (pun intended) but if you are really treating this as a business you have to consider this as a possibility.


Of course that's true (that there's an amount Amazon pays, and they decide how big the pot is when they see the reads. It's also true that January is always the lowest month, because, ahem, it's when people have Amazon gift cards and get new Kindles! I was hoping for .43, but I'm not too surprised by .41, as my borrows were, for me, huge in January--7.5 million).

But, yes, what you say has always been true. You can know that and accept it, and still treat Select as a viable business strategy. My business strategy is, "Do what makes me the most money with the least effort." When that stops being Select, that's when I change.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

stoney said:


> So, people are willing to accept less and less each month for their work, just because 'they're doing so well in KU'.


It's a matter of simple economics. If I make $1k in the other stores combined and $5k from KENP, even with their diminishing per page payout, then which am I going to choose?

Obviously as those numbers get closer together the decision can change.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> So, people are willing to accept less and less each month for their work, just because 'they're doing so well in KU'.


Sure. It's a business decision, you can't make a business decision by cutting your nose to spite your face.

Just because the payout is less, doesn't mean you'd necessarily make more wide. '

I think KU is still the best deal in town for people with only a few books who aren't ready to quit the day job yet. Time is money, and being wide definitely takes more time.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Sure. It's a business decision, you can't make a business decision by cutting your nose to spite your face.
> 
> Just because the payout is less, doesn't mean you'd necessarily make more wide. '
> 
> I think KU is still the best deal in town for people with only a few books who aren't ready to quit the day job yet. Time is money, and being wide definitely takes more time.


Or people who just don't want to deal with all that and who make a lot in Select.  Being wide made me super anxious. That, as much as the (radically decreased) money, is why I came back, because I do very well very easily in Select. But everybody's different!


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm not surprised it's dropping, although I am surprised that it dropped this much in one month. I thought my estimate of 0.0042 that I plugged into Book Report was pretty conservative. Apparently I need to revisit my assumptions, as they were wrong. Hmm. Think I'm going to put it at 0.0035 for the next couple months. 

As with most folks here, I think this is simply an economic decision. KU does grant significant visibility perks and the page read money can be fantastic (if you're killing it). When you're getting lower amounts of reads, I think it pays to explore wide a little bit more - there's something to be said about the relative safety of diversification and not being completely beholden to one retailer's decisions. Although it's a pain in the ass to get going on other retailers, and not every series can get jump-started. But it makes it worth testing when you have little to lose. I see some people with minimal page reads clinging to KU sometimes (or wide, or permafree etc.) because they don't want to "lose" the tiny foothold they have. Hell, even I do that. 

If something's not working for you, then be aggressive and try an alternative. But emotional rhetoric (e.g. Amazon is teh evils and trying to screw us all) or fearful decisions (what if I lose my 20,000 monthly page reads!! oh noes!) are unlikely to help your bottom line or do you any favors in the long run. At the end of the day, choose whatever gives you the best chance of attaining your version of success, given your available resources/titles/schedule. 

Nick


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Still way more per minute of entertainment than streaming plays for music. And artists haven't dropped out of streaming music - look, an album worth of music will pay a couple cents in streaming revenue. So it'll drop more and continue to move, as Boyd said/implied, to winner-take-all. In the big picture, the pot isn't very big however. This is all just pointless speculation.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

"My business strategy is, "Do what makes me the most money with the least effort." When that stops being Select, that's when I change."

Not poking you, Rosalind, but how do you know when that is if you are all-in with Amazon?

"Just because the payout is less, doesn't mean you'd necessarily make more wide." 

The opposite is just as true. I would argue also that the degree of control is much greater wide that it is in Select.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

555aaa said:


> Still way more per minute of entertainment than streaming plays for music. And artists haven't dropped out of streaming music - look, an album worth of music will pay a couple cents in streaming revenue. So it'll drop more and continue to move, as Boyd said/implied, to winner-take-all. In the big picture, the pot isn't very big however. This is all just pointless speculation.


Music streaming and ebooks are like comparing apples and asphalt. I'm in Select and plan to stay in, not arguing against that, but the music comparison doesn't hold water, never did.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Randall Wood said:


> The moment you actually consider the idea that there is no pot, never was, and that there is only what Amazon thinks Select authors will accept without leaving.
> 
> Not to stir the pot (pun intended) but if you are really treating this as a business you have to consider this as a possibility.


Am I the only one?










"Do not try and bend the spoon, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there is no spoon. Then you will see it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm doing well with KU2, much better than with KU1. The payout would have to really plunge to get me out. 

But the payout is indeed starting to plunge.You'll recall they started KU2 at $.0058 just 6 months ago. Now it's at $.0041. 

That is a Yuge decline.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

GwynnEWhite said:


> At what point does KU not become a worthwhile/viable marketing strategy? This is the question I am asking myself. Not having ever been wide, I done gave the answer, and that frustrates me. What does everyone else think?


1 pen name with 2 series in the same genre, with one series ALL IN KU and the other wide.

Get the best of both worlds. KU will give eyes to series 1, which in turn should help you wide series 2.


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## GwynnEWhite (May 23, 2012)

Charmaine said:


> 1 pen name with 2 series in the same genre, with one series ALL IN KU and the other wide.
> 
> Get the best of both worlds. KU will give eyes to series 1, which in turn should help you wide series 2.


That's my plan but it takes time to get that many books out. But I think it's a good strategy.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> "My business strategy is, "Do what makes me the most money with the least effort." When that stops being Select, that's when I change."
> 
> Not poking you, Rosalind, but how do you know when that is if you are all-in with Amazon?
> 
> ...


i tried being wide for 7 months. I had about 5 BookBub ads plus stacked promo, spent 1k per month. I had merchandising from iBooks and kobo. Result: first month was best, 10k wide. Then it dropped, despite adding books each month. My last month wide, I made 3k. When ku2 was announced (ku1 was the reason I went wide, as I write long novels), I put 3 books back into select, a series that hadn't done well wide. They immediately got big borrows. When KU2 hit, the pages borrowed on those 3 books were up to 100k/day. I said, "well, forget this," and pulled the rest of my stuff back into select.

I made 30k that month from borrows ALONE. vs 3k the previous month wide.

Is it that I'm a crappy marketer? Probably. I don't do Facebook ads and hate the idea, as it would take a lot of time and effort to do well, and I have s problem with anxiety that I have to consider as well. I put out a long book every 3 months and support it with an ad push behind a price promo on another book. And that's about it. I focus on writing. I don't have tons of books (16 out now), but each of them sells well.

Oh, and I also write for Montlake (APub), so the visibility from that reinforces the indie stuff on Amazon and vice versa. I'd love to think that my stuff is so fabulous that I could put it wide and kill it with the same ease I've always had on Amazon, but alas, either I'm not as wonderful as I think (nooooooo), or it would take a year or two and some serious marketing push, during which time I'd be forgoing the dollars that are right there right now.

Hope that helps explain. Everybody is different. I believe in experimenting and finding out what your version of the 80/20 rule looks like.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm curious what the rate will be in February with the new KENPCs. If it goes down anymore, I'll be making about $1.40-1.70 on my 3.99 and 4.99 titles for a full borrow. That's about half the royalty. I wish there was a way to know what percentage of my borrows would convert to royalties, but there isn't! I'd also love to know if I'll do well on Apple with the first in my series permafree but there's now way to know until I try.

My income peaked in November, a combination of the higher rate and a really successful release and promo. I'm likely to pull out of KU in the next few months if my income continues to trend down with the borrow rate. If my income goes up, I'll be less concerned with the rate.

I prefer Select for the convenience, but I don't like how the rate is zero sum when there are so many people willing to cheat!


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

disappointing


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

TimWLong said:


> Ouch.


My very thought. Or ouch 15 days ago and ouch again.


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## hunterone (Feb 6, 2013)

Boyd said:


> Get out now, before it's too late.
> 
> 
> 
> Leave more in the pot for those of us who stay in


ROFL!!! i agree. Get out quickly, run, grab your grandmother and make a dash for the hills


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## hunterone (Feb 6, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> The moment you actually consider the idea that there is no pot, never was, and that there is only what Amazon thinks Select authors will accept without leaving.
> 
> Not to stir the pot (pun intended) but if you are really treating this as a business you have to consider this as a possibility.


I agree Randall. I think they just throw a figure out there to lure folks in. As lets face it it they listed the payout per page instead of the pot they would probably have less people join.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Crystal_ said:


> I prefer Select for the convenience, but I don't like how the rate is zero sum when there are so many people willing to cheat!


Same. I'm in the process of taking a few titles wide and it's such a pain in the behind.


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## hunterone (Feb 6, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> But, yes, what you say has always been true. You can know that and accept it, and still treat Select as a viable business strategy. My business strategy is, "Do what makes me the most money with the least effort." When that stops being Select, that's when I change.


I agree.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

They upped the pot to like $15M to get that number, which should tell you how many reads they had for the month. The new cap and stabilized KENPC are both good in my book because it cuts down on some problems. Scammers will always find a way, but they have to address the problems as they come up. The stacked books and huge payout triggers with the links was becoming an epidemic. I will be interested in seeing February's numbers. Comparing payouts from when the program switched over to know is moot because the scammers skewed everything.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

It's also just going to depend on the length of your books. My books are super long, but I am constrained by genre on pricing. The max I can go is 4.99. My latest book, which I had lots of reads on in Jan., earned me about 2.90/read. That's less than I make for a sale at 4.99, but more than I'd make for a sale at 3.99, the most popular price point in my genre. 

If I wrote 250k books as many do in my genre, it wouldn't be worth it. But since my lowest KENPC on a novel is about 500, the picture looks a little better. So that's going to matter. 

For the record, I expect the payout # to rise for Feb as it has in all other years, because reads will be far lower.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

LilyBLily said:


> I totally feel like a frog too brainless to hop out of the water as it heats up to a boil and then kills me.
> 
> On a $2.99 romance, Amazon is now paying hardly more than one dollar--which effectively cuts us back to the 35% payout Amazon used to pay before competition made Amazon pay more. I assume 35% is the goal, but you never know. If I were Amazon, I push it to 25% just to see if we'd squeal.
> 
> I'm still at the prawny level, though, and staying in KU for another six months is part of my strategy. Once my series are complete, my tactics will change.


I thought amazon paid 75% on a $2.99 sale?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't see how the 3,000 page limit is going to stop the cheaters. If before I had one book that was 9,000 pages say, now I just make 3 books that are 3,000 pages each. 

The only way the epidemic is actually stopped is if Amazon said no more boxed sets (which would bring readers to the site more often to get those 3 or 4 book individually instead of in one lump), a limit on the number of books published in a month in KU by an author, and an overall page limit of 1,000.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Anna Drake said:


> Plus, the competition is heating up. I've noticed a whole bunch of Allingham and Cadael mysteries in the best selling cozy list. The books are also available in KU.


Minor note: only the first Cadfael book is in KU USA. The others in the series are not. There was a promo the other day, the first 10 books in the series for 1.99 each. And the first is in KU. Heck of a deal. My wife and I grabbed all 10 and will look forward to when the rest go on sale. 

EDITED to fix.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

Do you guys think KU pay will eventually go down to 0.001 or 0.002?


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Jim Johnson said:


> Minor note: only the first Cadfael book is in KU. The others in the series are not. There was a promo the other day, the first 10 books in the series for 1.99 each. And the first is in KU. Heck of a deal. My wife and I grabbed all 10 and will look forward to when the rest go on sale.


Here in the UK, the first four Cadfael books, plus the Cadfael Chronicles are in KU.


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## Craig Martelle (Feb 6, 2016)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Well, for me, this was north of 3 mil page reads in Jan.


Nicely done, Rick!


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

I guess readers will read as much as they can given the $9.99 investment. On the flip side, this new system of pages is interesting, but it probably won't change much pot-wise since everyone's pages are going down.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Nanny Ogg said:


> Here in the UK, the first four Cadfael books, plus the Cadfael Chronicles are in KU.


Good to know, thanks for the addendum!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

blancheking said:


> I guess readers will read as much as they can given the $9.99 investment. On the flip side, this new system of pages is interesting, but it probably won't change much pot-wise since everyone's pages are going down.


Only some people's went down. Mine seem close to the same. Of course that means I got underpaid by 10-20% or whatever the last 7 months, but oh well. I think they normalized it. Evened it out.

And I'll say again--Dec and Jan have had lowest payouts for 4 years, because they're highest reads.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

dragontucker said:


> I thought amazon paid 75% on a $2.99 sale?


As grandpa would say, there ya go thinkin' again. By which he meant, check your facts. 

It's 70% for the target range and has been since they raised it from 35% in response to Apple.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

dragontucker said:


> Do you guys think KU pay will eventually go down to 0.001 or 0.002?


No. I'll say this again too. They want novelists in. Good selling novelists. They want to pay where novelists will stay in. That means the borrow has to pay ad well as a $2.99-3.99 book. At least that has always been my assumption. Of course, there could just be too much scamming and it won't work, or the subscription model could be unsustainable. Things will keep changing.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> No. I'll say this again too. They want novelists in. Good selling novelists. They want to pay where novelists will stay in. That means the borrow has to pay ad well as a $2.99-3.99 book. At least that has always been my assumption. Of course, there could just be too much scamming and it won't work, or the subscription model could be unsustainable. Things will keep changing.


It's quite a bit less than that. My 80k word novels has a KENPC of around 420 with the new system, give or take. That's a hair over $1.60, quite a bit less than I make at 3.99 (what most authors charge for a romance of this length) and about half what I make at 4.99. I know lots of authors who write 50k word novels for 2.99. They're making a lot less per borrow versus buy.

Not that this means we should all pull out of KU. But at a certain point, if you're making a small enougb fraction of a royalty per borrow, then Select starts to look like a terrible deal. The question is what the fraction is-- 1/2 is debatable, but 1/4? I can't imagine many authors are willing to stay in Select for 1/4 a royalty.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> No. I'll say this again too. They want novelists in. Good selling novelists. They want to pay where novelists will stay in. That means the borrow has to pay ad well as a $2.99-3.99 book. At least that has always been my assumption. Of course, there could just be too much scamming and it won't work, or the subscription model could be unsustainable. Things will keep changing.


I'm not sure the math works to support that, though. Just some napkin math--say a novel is 100,000 words, and let's say the writer got a KENPC of 400 (guesstimating 250 words per page). That 100k word novel would make $1.64 per full read in KU. Assuming the author is selling the novel for at least 2.99, they're not even making the same amount per KU borrow as they are per a sale.

A book with KENPC of 500 would break the 2.00 barrier per full read. I don't know what that translates to as far as page word count, though.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I can't imagine many authors are willing to stay in Select for 1/4 a royalty.


That's really going to depend on a lot of factors. I went into Select after two years in which my non-Amazon income was something like 2% of my Amazon income. KU payouts are going to have to plummet pretty drastically to make KU not a good deal for me.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm not sure the math works to support that, though. Just some napkin math--say a novel is 100,000 words, and let's say the writer got a KENPC of 400 (guesstimating 250 words per page). That 100k word novel would make $1.64 per full read in KU. Assuming the author is selling the novel for at least 2.99, they're not even making the same amount per KU borrow as they are per a sale.
> 
> A book with KENPC of 500 would break the 2.00 barrier per full read. I don't know what that translates to as far as page count, though.


My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


OK, good to know. So figure a 100k book might be in the 550-600 KENPC range? 550 is $2.25, 600 is $2.46. So, I guess the longer the better, assuming the author holds the reader all the way through the book.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> As grandpa would say, there ya go thinkin' again. By which he meant, check your facts.
> 
> It's 70% for the target range and has been since they raised it from 35% in response to Apple.


Yea....70% is good


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I don't see how the 3,000 page limit is going to stop the cheaters. If before I had one book that was 9,000 pages say, now I just make 3 books that are 3,000 pages each.
> 
> The only way the epidemic is actually stopped is if Amazon said no more boxed sets (which would bring readers to the site more often to get those 3 or 4 book individually instead of in one lump), a limit on the number of books published in a month in KU by an author, and an overall page limit of 1,000.


The big scam was putting as many as 100 books in a bundle and causing exploded KENPC and then putting a link in the front to get people to jump to the back and trigger a full read. The cap cuts down on that and still allows legitimate writers to box their work. My understanding is that most people won't go on to buy something else by the scammers after the first shot. They were designed for a one-off scam. Personally I would be okay with a 1,000 cap, but I think I'm in the minority.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


What software do you use to write with?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

dragontucker said:


> What software do you use to write with?


Word.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jim Johnson said:


> I'm not sure the math works to support that, though. Just some napkin math--say a novel is 100,000 words, and let's say the writer got a KENPC of 400 (guesstimating 250 words per page). That 100k word novel would make $1.64 per full read in KU. Assuming the author is selling the novel for at least 2.99, they're not even making the same amount per KU borrow as they are per a sale.
> 
> A book with KENPC of 500 would break the 2.00 barrier per full read. I don't know what that translates to as far as page word count, though.


We did a lot of sharing. Under 2.0, it seems to be about 200 words per page for most people. I write 100k books. My kenpcs for those are about 500. My new book is almost 700. So, yes. If you write long, you can make more than a royalty at 3.99. If you write short, you probably want to go wide.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


That sounds like crazy high KENPC for a 73,000 word book. Back matter included? Excerpt in the back not included? My novel is 76,000 words and 325 KENPC - which is pretty on point with others I've talked to. Although after seeing this I might have to message Amazon to take another look.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Mind you, I am just a reader here. But I keep reading how the payout has to match what royalties on a sale are. I guess this baffles me as a consumer. If I buy your books, I own them. They are in my account, I can share them with others on  my account, or loan them out for 14 days to anyone. I can read it again in 2 years if I feel like it. Its in my archive, until amazon goes under or the world comes to an end. Whichever comes firs. 

If I read a KU book, I do not buy it. I do not own it. I borrow it. Its like borrowing a movie. I can buy the movie for 14.99 instant, or I can borrow it for 4.99 for 24 hours. They just aren't the same thing. 

I watch movies through netflix, prime and hulu. I don't own those either, I rent them. I rent KU books. I think the expectation to be paid the same for a borrow as a purchase, yet I, as the customer do not even get to keep that thing, seems a bit odd to me. 

I pay to rent the books, you get paid for me to borrow the books. I buy your books, you get paid for me to own those books. 

In any case, as long as I have enough stuff to find in KU I am good to go. I don't want folks to leave. Let me know if you do so I can fill some slots.  . Books stay in my KU archive even if you pull out. 

If you all pull out, I guess I'll just have to read my way through the Montlake catalog.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


I have an 87,300 word novel that is 451 KENPC. I don't have much confidence in Amazon's formula for page length being consistent or fair.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think that is a marvelous idea!


Ditto!


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## PhilipColgate (Feb 11, 2016)

This has finally convinced me to go wide.


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## susan_illene (Aug 10, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> OK, good to know. So figure a 100k book might be in the 550-600 KENPC range? 550 is $2.25, 600 is $2.46. So, I guess the longer the better, assuming the author holds the reader all the way through the book.


I have a 101k word novel and the KENPC is 503. I wish it was as high as 550-600!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

writemore said:


> That sounds like crazy high KENPC for a 73,000 word book. Back matter included? Excerpt in the back not included? My novel is 76,000 words and 325 KENPC - which is pretty on point with others I've talked to. Although after seeing this I might have to message Amazon to take another look.


No back matter other than a brief "author's note" and book list. I checked an 82,000-word book and it's 486 KENPC. Maybe the one book is off. It just happened to be at the top of my shelf.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> No back matter other than a brief "author's note" and book list. I checked an 82,000-word book and it's 486 KENPC. Maybe the one book is off. It just happened to be at the top of my shelf.


That still seems high. I don't know what magic sauce you are using but don't stop.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Atunah, how many books did you BUY last month that you read in KU, if you don't mind me asking. I know my buying habits, I rarely buy a book I read in KU. The only time I would buy it is if I wanted to read it again, went to go borrow it and it was no longer in KU. And those habits match just about everyone I talk to who reads in KU, not many books are purchased. For nonfiction, where a book is more of a reference, the rate is higher on who buys it with KU acting more as a full preview of sorts of is the book worth it to own.

The reason we worry about a borrow being close to a royalty is because for authors who signup to be in KU if they had sales before that, they usually take a hit. Not everyone, but most authors see this. For me, I figured out that KU cost me about 30-40% of my sales just be being there to borrow. So where the math comes in to play, again, not for every author, some see so much more volume on page reads, it doesn't matter. But if you're NOT able to pull down that million+ page reads in a month (which is $4100), then it really does matter. I know of one author in my genre with a slew of books and her best months see about 100,000 page reads, or $410. And that $410 needs to be more than what she would make being wide and not losing money on her sale. Her books are all novels, but the KENPC is about $1 less than a royalty pay out, so everytime someone decides to borrow and read instead of buy the book, she makes $1 less. True, some readers would never buy, only borrow, so the loss is ONLY readers that would have bought anyway if the book wasn't KU and didn't buy the book because they read it and moved on.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I also have a ton of books right around 60,000 words for my pen name (I design them to that length) and they all appear to be 360-380 as far as I can tell.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

writemore said:


> That still seems high. I don't know what magic sauce you are using but don't stop.


I write in Word and format in Vellum. I don't mess with anything else.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Atunah, how many books did you BUY last month that you read in KU, if you don't mind me asking. I know my buying habits, I rarely buy a book I read in KU. The only time I would buy it is if I wanted to read it again, went to go borrow it and it was no longer in KU. And those habits match just about everyone I talk to who reads in KU, not many books are purchased. For nonfiction, where a book is more of a reference, the rate is higher on who buys it with KU acting more as a full preview of sorts of is the book worth it to own.
> 
> The reason we worry about a borrow being close to a royalty is because for authors who signup to be in KU if they had sales before that, they usually take a hit. Not everyone, but most authors see this. For me, I figured out that KU cost me about 30-40% of my sales just be being there to borrow. So where the math comes in to play, again, not for every author, some see so much more volume on page reads, it doesn't matter. But if you're NOT able to pull down that million+ page reads in a month (which is $4100), then it really does matter. I know of one author in my genre with a slew of books and her best months see about 100,000 page reads, or $410. And that $410 needs to be more than what she would make being wide and not losing money on her sale. Her books are all novels, but the KENPC is about $1 less than a royalty pay out, so everytime someone decides to borrow and read instead of buy the book, she makes $1 less. True, some readers would never buy, only borrow, so the loss is ONLY readers that would have bought anyway if the book wasn't KU and didn't buy the book because they read it and moved on.


Eh? Why would I by a book I just read in KU. I already paid for the rental of it. Now other books by that same author, that is a different story. But the same book? Why, I don't really re-read a lot. 
I am willing to pay with not having anything left to show for. Nothing I own after. Nada. Now in the rare case, like in the rare case of movie rentals, I go and buy something later. But not sure what that has to do with my point. Its why they are rentals and not purchases. They cost less and so one should get paid less? No?

I buy books, I borrow books. Most readers do that. Very very rarely is a reader only doing one thing. But I don't buy a book I just borrowed, borrowed for money that is. As suppose to a library book.

Befuddled why any of what I posted has anything to do with buying what I just borrowed. Maybe its too early in the day for my brain, but I don't get it.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I also purchase books I like after reading them in KU. I don't know the exact number, but I'm going to guess around 40-50 purchases.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I write in Word and format in Vellum. I don't mess with anything else.


Maybe Vellum is the secret then. But folks shouldn't get fewer pages because they don't compile with Vellum. All I know is that it doesn't make sense. One 75,000 word book should have the sameish KENPC as the next 75,000 word book.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Mind you, I am just a reader here. But I keep reading how the payout has to match what royalties on a sale are. I guess this baffles me as a consumer.


I don't think they have to match, but many writers do. Which is why being in KU has to be a personal decision each writer has to make. I view KU monies as bonus income and don't rely on a month to month income from it. Other writers approach it differently. When KU no longer serves my business goals, I'll pull the books and go wide. For now, I still need to experiment, and 3 months exclusive in the service is a modest time frame in which to experiment.


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## susan_illene (Aug 10, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Eh? Why would I by a book I just read in KU. I already paid for the rental of it. Now other books by that same author, that is a different story. But the same book? Why, I don't really re-read a lot.
> I am willing to pay with not having anything left to show for. Nothing I own after. Nada. Now in the rare case, like in the rare case of movie rentals, I go and buy something later. But not sure what that has to do with my point. Its why they are rentals and not purchases. They cost less and so one should get paid less? No?
> 
> I buy books, I borrow books. Most readers do that. Very very rarely is a reader only doing one thing. But I don't buy a book I just borrowed, borrowed for money that is. As suppose to a library book.
> ...


I can see where you're coming from in that a borrow shouldn't be as valuable as a purchase. The reader doesn't get to keep the book. What concerns many authors, though, is the exclusivity factor. They can't sell their ebooks anywhere except Amazon if they're in KU. That means a loss of sales, which Amazon has to compensate for as incentive to stay in the program. For instance, my audiobooks are borrowed in libraries for something like 20 cents a borrow (it hardly makes me much of a profit), but none of those libraries demand that I only have my book available to them and no one else. I can still sell my audiobooks at all the various retailers to make up the difference. With KU, that isn't the case.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Looks like I need to reformat my book. 80k words and only 399 pages; maybe I should stop crowding the text into long paragraphs.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

writemore said:


> Maybe Vellum is the secret then. But folks shouldn't get fewer pages because they don't compile with Vellum. All I know is that it doesn't make sense. One 75,000 word book should have the sameish KENPC as the next 75,000 word book.


Most reports say that before the adjustment books being formatted with things like Calibre and Jutoh were seeing extremely "fluffed" KENPC. The people at Vellum acknowledged they would not be doing that and instead opted to remain as they were so you often got a lower KENPC than you would with other programs. Most of the people I know using Vellum did not see big KENPC shifts. So technically Vellum users were essentially making less than they could (but nothing beats the ease of that program). I used to upload straight from Word and then shifted all of my titles over to Vellum. With 74 titles I saw a net gain of 36 KENPC pages. That was 74 titles, so barely a shift (less than half a page a book). When the big shift came down two weeks ago, most of my books stayed the same.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

blancheking said:


> Looks like I need to reformat my book. 80k words and only 399 pages; maybe I should stop crowding the text into long paragraphs.


Ironically enough, I have heard big blocks of text affect KENPC. My books have very short paragraphs and tons of short dialogue.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

You asked why authors wanted a borrow to be close to a royalty payment. Your perspective is the reader did not buy it, why should the payment be close to a royalty payment. I was trying to explain to you that for authors, most need the borrow rate to be close to a royalty payment because they pay their bills with all of the monies they get, not just what they make in sales.

In order to be in KU, authors have to give up the other revenue streams open to their book for digital book sales. Unless an author is seeing massive volume in  page reads, a much lower pay for a full read as a borrow vs a royalty hurts their bottom line. 

There are people making amazing money with KU, but many others are not. They literally can't, the pool is always paid out in proportion to the total pages read and the books that get the most clicks get the most visibility. I'm not saying it's not fair, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there will always be authors in KU that make very little compared to those at the top. So the readers who are the lower spectrum of page reads are carefully looking at is it worth it for me to take a book that says makes me $2 a sale but makes me $1.23 as a borrow (a 300 KENPC) and put it in KU or should I take it wide, have half the number of readers who are reading it all the way through and make up that difference in sales I can get elsewhere.

So that's why people are concerned if the borrow rate is close to a royalty payment, it has nothing to do with does a reader own it not, but how it affect what an author makes to support themselves or their families. We know that if a reader opts to borrow it, we are paid much less than if the reader had chosen to buy it. The tricky part comes in trying to figure out if you'd make more as an individual author by haivng your book available to borrow because you are attracting more readers to your books or not having your books available to borrow so readers have to buy them if they want to read them.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Most reports say that before the adjustment books being formatted with things like Calibre and Jutoh were seeing extremely "fluffed" KENPC. The people at Vellum acknowledged they would not be doing that and instead opted to remain as they were so you often got a lower KENPC than you would with other programs. Most of the people I know using Vellum did not see big KENPC shifts. So technically Vellum users were essentially making less than they could (but nothing beats the ease of that program). I used to upload straight from Word and then shifted all of my titles over to Vellum. With 74 titles I saw a net gain of 36 KENPC pages. That was 74 titles, so barely a shift (less than half a page a book). When the big shift came down two weeks ago, most of my books stayed the same.


Taking what is used to compile out of the equation... a 75,000 word book should still have roughly the same KENPC as the next 75,000 word book. If they fixed things our books shouldn't be 100+ pages different. And I'm not trying to point a finger at you yelling life isn't fair, I know it's not something you are doing, I'm just trying to point out the system is still very flawed.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Ironically enough, I have heard big blocks of text affect KENPC. My books have very short paragraphs and tons of short dialogue.


That's good to know, thanks!  I tend to crowd my text in a blob, with everything one person does in a big paragraph. Me thinks it's time to break it up a bit, and throw in that Table of Contents I forgot.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

blancheking said:


> That's good to know, thanks!  I tend to crowd my text in a blob, with everything one person does in a big paragraph. Me thinks it's time to break it up a bit.


I also have short paragraphs and dialogue, and far less KENPC than Amanda does.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Another factor that plays into being in KU or not are the monthly bonuses paid out to the top 100 authors in KU and the top 100 ranked titles. The authors placing a lot of titles in the top 100 are making a lot off bonus money.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You asked why authors wanted a borrow to be close to a royalty payment. Your perspective is the reader did not buy it, why should the payment be close to a royalty payment. I was trying to explain to you that for authors, most need the borrow rate to be close to a royalty payment because they pay their bills with all of the monies they get, not just what they make in sales.


I pay bills too, so why I use subscription for some stuff. Its still not the same though. Borrow is borrow and purchase is purchase. Why should the income from a borrow be the same than a purchase when I do not have anything after I read it. Its gone like a puff of smoke, along with my precious hard earned money.

I am well aware that authors have to pay bills, Duh. 

Just pointing out that one cannot expect the same payment for a borrow than for a purchase. I need to own those books, permanently in my account through KU for it to be the same. Maybe that is what they need to do? Let me keep everything I read through KU for good? Then it can be the same pay than a royalty.

Like I said, as of now there is no lack of great reads in KU. Novels that is, don't care about shorts. I have a 2 year sub that runs out July 2017. If nothing is left by then, I won't pay anymore. I have a feeling though they will get a handle on some of the scams going on right now which I believe are contributing to the lower payout this month. The next month or 2 will say more when some of their changes are implemented. I also think they need to fiddle some more to make this more fair.

If if doesn't work for authors, they'll get out of KU. I have wishlists for KU and for wait for loan. I have only lost about 30 books from my KU wishlist in the last 6 months. So doesn't look like a lot of novel authors are getting out at this time. I gained about 100 in that same time frame to add to my wishlist.

I also think many that are doing well in KU and still doing well, even with this somewhat lower payout don't really post here. They just collect readers and page counts each month.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I also have a ton of books right around 60,000 words for my pen name (I design them to that length) and they all appear to be 360-380 as far as I can tell.


I just checked one of my 60K books, and its KENPC is 317. So no consistency.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I will be totally out of KU by the end of this month. I do much better wide and feel like KU is just giving my books away. I did not like it and it did not like me. )


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages (just looked at the top one on my bookshelf) so that math really isn't right. A 100,000-word book would have a much higher KENPC.


My 70,000-word book has 376 in KENP. And my 76,000-word book has 385 in KENP. I'm clearly doing something wrong.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Boyd said:


> Top bonus is what, 25k?


Yeah. The authors ranked 1-10 get $25k each. Not counting added bonuses for their high ranked books. Bella Forrest is #1 and I think she has at least six titles in the top 100, which is another chunk of change. For prolific writers writing stuff readers want to read in KU, the bonus monies are significant.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

AnnChristy said:


> And that's where I don't get it. Because it may have "normalized" some, but it ain't giving everyone the same normal at all.
> 
> My 94K = 431 KENPC down from 485
> 102K = 488 KENPC down from 492
> ...


I agree this sounds suspicious. Just wanted to add that my one book that's 77,000 is 385 KENP and then another which is 76,000 is 465. Both are produced exactly the same way ( I use Calibre to convert my books). So the KENP count doesn't seem to have to do with how you produced your book, either (in addition to what you just stated about lots of space, many chapters etc).


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

AnnChristy said:


> And that's where I don't get it. Because it may have "normalized" some, but it ain't giving everyone the same normal at all.
> 
> My 94K = 431 KENPC down from 485
> 102K = 488 KENPC down from 492
> ...


And yet I also have a 58,000-word main name book with 287 KENPC. More goes into calculating KENPC than just words. Words are certainly a part of it. They arent the end of it, though.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Boyd said:


> I do want to point out you can email support... and they will evaluate your KENPC by hand. They've done it before during KENPC1, I'm sure it'll be the same to KENPC2


I hope you're right, because the discrepancy in KENP numbers is extremely unfair. Will definitely call, not email support to discuss it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Many people had WAY more KENPC per word count than I did pre-shift. Now, it seems MORE normalized, though I still know people (and, yes, they're good sellers) who have higher KENPCs and lower word counts than I do.

When we actually had a thread where people were reporting before/after word counts and KENPCs, it came out much more tightly clustered around 200 words/page. (Which is where mine are.) Before, it seemed to be all over the map. I had over 200 words per page on some books, and some people had as low as 140 words per page. 

So it seems, from what actual information-sharing there was at the time and a little larger sample, to be "fairer" now, whatever that means. But no question, previously, I was getting paid less (by word count) than it appeared most people were, who were sharing with me. Which I have to assume is why my KENPCs didn't drop as much.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

susan_illene said:


> I have a 101k word novel and the KENPC is 503. I wish it was as high as 550-600!


That's about where my words/KENPCs are, for the record.


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## susan_illene (Aug 10, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> That's about where my words/KENPCs are, for the record.


That's about where mine was prior to the change. It was at the low end compared to most people's before, but it does seem to be about average for that word count now.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

It's Amazon brinkmanship. Testing how far they can lower the bar before authors and publishers decide to adopt a strategy of jumpmanship.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Atunah said:


> *I pay bills too, so why I use subscription for some stuff. Its still not the same though. Borrow is borrow and purchase is purchase. Why should the income from a borrow be the same than a purchase when I do not have anything after I read it. Its gone like a puff of smoke, along with my precious hard earned money. *
> 
> I am well aware that authors have to pay bills, Duh.
> 
> ...


So&#8230;what is it that bothers you so much about authors discussing which options will be most profitable for them?

Is it that you expect us to keep our books in KU (if it's not as profitable for us) out of charity for readers?
On the one hand that seems to be what you're getting at by bringing up your "hard-earned money." But then you're quick to point out that there are plenty of books for you in KU. So what do you care if someone makes the business decision to leave KU because they're making less money there?

I don't get it. How does it affect YOU if we get paid the same for a borrow and a sale or not? How does it harm you?


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Mystery Maven said:


> So&#8230;what is it that bothers you so much about authors discussing which options will be most profitable for them?
> 
> Is it that you expect us to keep our books in KU (if it's not as profitable for us) out of charity for readers?
> On the one hand that seems to be what you're getting at by bringing up your "hard-earned money." But then you're quick to point out that there are plenty of books for you in KU. So what do you care if someone makes the business decision to leave KU because they're making less money there?
> ...


Can someone explain the difference between borrow and a KU read? How do they calculate the pay for borrows?

KU actually makes up 2/3 of my book income, so I have no inclination to get out of it. Also, I thought the only way to make $$ outside of KU is to take out a ridiculous amount of ads (all of which are very expensive) after going wide. Doesn't that also create a deficit and lag problem?

For example: if X makes $800 without ads normally, and then spends $350 on ads (I think that's how much just one Bookbub costs), then they would have to sell $1150 off book sales the coming month just to break even. And with Amazon's payout lagging at 2 months per payout, we're looking at deflated payments that could be avoided with KU enrollment. I don't know... just from an economic perspective, it doesn't make sense to go wide unless you're grossing over $5k a month


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My roughly 73,000-word book has a KENPC of 465 pages...


My 75,000 word book has a KENPC of 380. There just doesn't seem to be any consistency to their formula?


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Mystery Maven said:


> SoÂ&#8230;what is it that bothers you so much about authors discussing which options will be most profitable for them?
> 
> Is it that you expect us to keep our books in KU (if it's not as profitable for us) out of charity for readers?
> On the one hand that seems to be what you're getting at by bringing up your "hard-earned money." But then you're quick to point out that there are plenty of books for you in KU. So what do you care if someone makes the business decision to leave KU because they're making less money there?
> ...


I'm not Atunah, but I'll answer the questions from my perspective anyway with the disclaimer that I do NOT have a KU subscription! To answer the first two questions: I think it is a good thing for authors to discuss whether KU is a good business decision and I think Atunah showed she agrees with you by saying "If it doesn't work for authors, they'll get out of KU." I certainly don't expect authors to make their books available as a "charity" to readers.

To answer the last question: There is no harm to me whatsoever by how much or little you are paid for a borrow versus a sale. But the argument is a specious one, in my opinion. Readers and authors are aware that KU is a rental/borrow subscription. If I were to only borrow 10 books a month and they are all .99 books there would be no point in belonging to the subscription program. I could outright buy them and keep them in my account for others to read.

If I follow the "A borrow should equal a sale because I have a bills to pay" mentality, then I should never buy Elizabeth Ann West's $8.99 books because that eats up my book budget that could have supported the families of two, three, or 9 authors that price their books lower?? Of course not. She has always maintained that borrows take away from her sales and I have no reason to believe that is not true. If so, KU does not seem to be a good fit for her. Amanda, on the other hand, gets gazillions of page reads in addition to maintaining and increasing her sales, so even at dropping page-read rates, the increased visibility makes sense for her to stay in.

Readers who use KU perceive they are getting extra value from Amazon for a subscription program. Authors know they are agreeing to participate in a rental program. Wanting borrows to be equal to or more than a sale is what led to the proliferation of short stories that were the demise of KU1.

Discuss all you like about what makes sense for any individual author's business plan, but don't be outraged when readers offer their perspective on whether a borrow should be worth the same thing as a sale. I'm pretty sure if that the amounts were paid out that way across the board, Amazon will end Kindle Unlimited. It just wouldn't make any sense, a rental and a sale will never be the same thing.


----------



## Guest (Feb 16, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I also have a ton of books right around 60,000 words for my pen name (I design them to that length) and they all appear to be 360-380 as far as I can tell.


I have a 61,000 word novel in KU and it has a KENPC of 285

My numbers seem way off compared to yours


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

Ouch.  And this when they've also lowered the KENPC of all of my books (and I seem to recall almost everybody else's, too).  And here I assumed this was because they wanted to pay less per book without lowering the per-page rate.

Appaaaaaaaaaaaaaarently not.

I'm planning to launch my next series wide and see how it does.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The new page counts don't take effect until February. Neither does the 3,000 KENPC cap. So those aren't reflected in this month's numbers.

Also, I know I've said this twice already, but . . . January is ALWAYS the lowest (sometimes Dec. is right there with it). Always. 4 years now. Always. 

If Feb. isn't higher, there's an issue. But January being the lowest is no surprise.


----------



## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Colin said:


> It's Amazon brinkmanship. Testing how far they can lower the bar before authors and publishers decide to adopt a strategy of jumpmanship.


Heh-heh,

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I have no reason to think you're...not right. There is so many unknowns with KU that I have to think they want it that way.

Hows that saying go? "The exploiter never tells the exploited how they are exploiting them."


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Mystery Maven said:


> So&#8230;what is it that bothers you so much about authors discussing which options will be most profitable for them?
> 
> Is it that you expect us to keep our books in KU (if it's not as profitable for us) out of charity for readers?
> On the one hand that seems to be what you're getting at by bringing up your "hard-earned money." But then you're quick to point out that there are plenty of books for you in KU. So what do you care if someone makes the business decision to leave KU because they're making less money there?
> ...


Charity? Did I miss something? KU costs 9.99 a month. Doesn't sound like charity to me. Is it going to be all free for me? Where, point me to it. Deal with it. Readers and writers alike get to post on KB. What a great site this is. 



crebel said:


> I'm not Atunah, but I'll answer the questions from my perspective anyway with the disclaimer that I do NOT have a KU subscription! To answer the first two questions: I think it is a good thing for authors to discuss whether KU is a good business decision and I think Atunah showed she agrees with you by saying "If it doesn't work for authors, they'll get out of KU." I certainly don't expect authors to make their books available as a "charity" to readers.
> 
> To answer the last question: There is no harm to me whatsoever by how much or little you are paid for a borrow versus a sale. But the argument is a specious one, in my opinion. Readers and authors are aware that KU is a rental/borrow subscription. If I were to only borrow 10 books a month and they are all .99 books there would be no point in belonging to the subscription program. I could outright buy them and keep them in my account for others to read.
> 
> ...


Thank you crebel. You have better words than I can dig up.

Readers are a big part of KU. Don't be surprised when some of us chime in.

And watch me plow through Amanda's back list as we speak.


----------



## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Randall Wood said:


> Heh-heh,
> 
> I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I have no reason to think you're...not right. There is so many unknowns with KU that I have to think they want it that way.
> 
> Hows that saying go? "The exploiter never tells the exploited how they are exploiting them."


^This


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

um, never mind, quoted post is gone.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Atunah said:


> For that matter--readers. How about that conspiracy? I have a book that, when I wrote it, I thought, "Ha-HAH. Everybody who likes this series will love this book!" It sold OK, but it's definitely not one of my most popular books. Lots of folks felt there was something lacking. Then I wrote one recently that I didn't feel that way about, and it resonated like CRAZY. I don't know. I'm sure somebody else might be able to point out what it is, but I don't know.
> 
> Cause us romance readers are wacko?  Try to nail us down and we'll squirt out in West Texas. Do not ask, just go along for the ride.


Nope! It's just that authors can't always see their own books objectively.  I'm just happy anybody likes them at all!


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

it is what it is


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Except that you don't own any of the ebooks you have bought, either. You have a license that Amazon can revoke at any time.

I am not saying Atunah shouldn't have an opinion. Or that her opinion is even wrong. She asked why so many authors were worrying about if a full page read was close to a full royalty on a book and I explained one reason why. Some authors don't have enough page reads to compensate for other opportunities to sell their ebook. 

Love kboards. But just because some authors are making lots of money with KU doesn't mean everyone is or even can. Some genres will never pull the mass numbers of readers that other genres pull. That's why my novel is $8.99 and it was available for FREE to every reader on my mailing list who engages with me. If a reader is a fan, I don't care if they pay for my book or not. But if someone wants to buy a license to the ebook through a store, it's $8.99. And when you buy that book, it's not just my family you're supporting with your book budget. But also every editor, freelancer, translator, and companies that make up the expenses my business has. There's no way to look at it as just well I can help 3 authors here with $8.99, or 1 author here. We all fill different parts of the ecosystem, but we're all part of the same ecosystem.


----------



## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

Boyd said:


> Unless you call your amazon rep... and then you have to trust that they are telling you the truth


OR, do the reps even know!?! How do we know they aren't a bunch of prisoners working off a spreadsheet of canned responses for $.13/hour at a call center inside cell-block 9!?!   

I'm happy its working for some, for me its asking for too much suspension of belief. The constantly changing numbers/payout/page-count/pot just add up to "What Amazon Wants" to me. Its a very one-sided deal, especially when you add in the exclusivity. Nothing I've seen since its implementation has changed my mind on that. If anything its gotten worse.

But to each their own. I see some benefits as a launch vehicle but not much more than that. I won't knock anyone for trying it. From what I'm reading here it seems to do better with some genre's over others and I can only speak to my own.

I'll be watching KU, but from the sidelines I think.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Except that you don't own any of the ebooks you have bought, either. You have a license that Amazon can revoke at any time.
> 
> I am not saying Atunah shouldn't have an opinion. Or that her opinion is even wrong. She asked why so many authors were worrying about if a full page read was close to a full royalty on a book and I explained one reason why. Some authors don't have enough page reads to compensate for other opportunities to sell their ebook.
> 
> Love kboards. But just because some authors are making lots of money with KU doesn't mean everyone is or even can. Some genres will never pull the mass numbers of readers that other genres pull. That's why my novel is $8.99 and it was available for FREE to every reader on my mailing list who engages with me. If a reader is a fan, I don't care if they pay for my book or not. But if someone wants to buy a license to the ebook through a store, it's $8.99. And when you buy that book, it's not just my family you're supporting with your book budget. But also every editor, freelancer, translator, and companies that make up the expenses my business has. There's no way to look at it as just well I can help 3 authors here with $8.99, or 1 author here. We all fill different parts of the ecosystem, but we're all part of the same ecosystem.


The rare book I would pay 8.99 for. Not even the big publisher books, big names in genres often charge that much. Even in your genre there are other price points. Plenty of them. Not sure what any of this has to do with KU. You aren't in KU. I pay for books. I don't give a mouses behind what editors are there just like authors don't give a mouses behind what kind of money a reader has available. We all have families, we all have lives, we all have bills to pay. Nobody is special in that regard.

I also didn't say anything about authors not worrying about KU. I said if you don't want to be in it, don't be in it. Not sure if you read my post even. I said a borrow is not a sale. Its not the same. Don't want to loan out books, don't go into KU. Simple. I just want to read. I am willing to pay for what I read. Borrow or purchase. But I do know the difference. It shows everytime I look into my archive. All the Ku titles are gone poof, all the library loans gone poof, all the KOLL gone poof and all the 14 day loans gone poof. They are still there as a place holder, but I can't read them again. I do not own them. I borrowed the. And they are listed in my borrow section of "My Account"


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

juliatheswede said:


> My 70,000-word book has 376 in KENP. And my 76,000-word book has 385 in KENP. I'm clearly doing something wrong.


My 75k book has 351 KENP. I hand-code my books.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I am not in KU with EAW books right now. But there were once in the program. So guess what, this DOES still all affect me because I literally am still getting paid for page reads when at the time the books were in the program, that is not what the pay structure was. Nor was there any precedent for per page payments. Saying I'm not in KU, none of this affects me isn't correct either.

Also, every author in the store is fighting for the same visibility. If Amazon is going to give more visibility to ghost borrows than a sale (yep, I've compared data with other authors and we're pretty sure this is going on too) that affects everyone. There's only 100 bestseller spots and 100 hot new release spots. 

It's not as simple as "if you don't want to borrow out, then don't." It's already getting to where some authors feel they have no choice but to be KU. 

I respect your opinion as a reader. I always have.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2016)

Yeah. The payout dropped a bit. But so what? I suppose I could jump up and down and whine about how unfair it is. But then that would be ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that without Amazon I wouldn't have a career. Amazon has been the best thing to come into my life - aside from my family - that I could have hoped for. Say what you want. Amazon has been the prime reason for the indie explosion. That KDP exists is fantastic. And KU? How many books that would have remained unbought have been read as a result of that program? 
I'm never thrilled to make less money. But reality is reality. And the only thing I can do is shrug and keep writing.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

EAW has already explained why authors compute the pay for a full read borrow vs. a royalty really well. Personally, I don't really care what is fair or just. I care about what makes me the most money. I calculate what the pay for a full read borrow is vs. a royalty so I can gauge whether or not KU feels like it's my best option. There's no way to know for sure unless I try out being wide and try out KU. Even then, I can't know for sure what will be best for me next month. That's the hard thing about being an indie author

Some percentage of my KU readers would buy my book if it wasn't available in KU. That might be 1% and it might be 99%. Most likely, it somewhere in the 10-50% range.

If a borrow is worth literally half a sale, and exactly half of my KU readers will buy my books if they are out of KU, I will make exactly the same amount of money in KU or out of KU on Amazon.* But, if I'm not in KU, I can go wide and also makes sales on Nook, IBooks, etc. If my borrow is worth 1/8 a sale and half my readers will buy my books, I'll make a lot more on Amazon alone leaving KU. If a borrow is worth half a sale and only one-tenth of my KU readers will buy my books, then I'll make a lot less on Amazon if I leave KU.

*Of course, it doesn't actually work out this exactly. There's no way to know what percentage of your KU readers will be willing to buy your books. And, generally, on Amazon, all other things being equal, you are better off getting more sales + borrows because more sales = more visibility. The one exception is the pop list which doesn't count borrows, only sales and free downloads (which count for 1/10th of a sale). There are other benefits to being in KU-- convenience, use of Countdown Deals or Free days, ghost borrows. There are also downsides to being in KU-- you have to bite your nails every month on the 15th wondering how much you will make for last month's pages, you can't sell your books on other stores, BookBub seems to favor books in wide distribution.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> They are still there as a place holder, but I can't read them again. I do not own them. I borrowed the. And they are listed in my borrow section of "My Account"


You can borrow them again and read them if you want to. As long as the book's in KU, you can borrow it unlimited times if you have the urge to read them again.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> January is ALWAYS the lowest (sometimes Dec. is right there with it). Always. 4 years now. Always.


Except when it isn't.

In 2012, January was the lowest, because the KDP Select program was just getting started and Amazon was experimenting with how much to pay KDP Select publishers. So many bailed after January's payout announcement that Amazon pumped more money into the pot during the following months.

In 2013, January was the fourth lowest month.

In 2014, January was the sixth highest month.

In 2015, January was the second highest month.

The Global Pool payouts have been on an alarming downhill trend that's difficult to see when your Amazon bank deposits keep getting bigger. Look for yourself:

12/01/11,$1.70
01/01/12,$1.60
02/01/12,$2.01
03/01/12,$2.18
04/01/12,$2.48
05/01/12,$2.26
06/01/12,$2.08
07/01/12,$2.04
08/01/12,$2.12
09/01/12,$2.29
10/01/12,$2.36
11/01/12,$1.90
12/01/12,$1.88
01/01/13,$2.23
02/01/13,$2.31
03/01/13,$1.94
04/01/13,$2.27
05/01/13,$2.24
06/01/13,$2.24
07/01/13,$2.04
08/01/13,$2.26
09/01/13,$2.42
10/01/13,$2.51
11/01/13,$2.46
12/01/13,$1.86
01/01/14,$1.93
02/01/14,$2.24
03/01/14,$2.10
04/01/14,$2.24
05/01/14,$2.17
06/01/14,$2.24
07/01/14,$1.81
08/01/14,$1.54
09/01/14,$1.52
10/01/14,$1.33
11/01/14,$1.39
12/01/14,$1.43
1/01/15,$1.3765
2/01/15,$1.406
3/01/15,$1.337
4/01/15,$1.355
5/01/15,$1.35
6/01/15,$1.35 ~ $0.006104
July '15	$0.005779
Aug. '15	$0.00514
Sept.'15	$0.00507
Oct. '15	$0.004809
Nov. '15	$0.004919
Dec. '15	$0.004609
Jan. '16 $0.004115


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Shelley K said:


> You can borrow them again and read them if you want to. As long as the book's in KU, you can borrow it unlimited times if you have the urge to read them again.


There is no guarantee that the book is still there in 2 years and basically I would have paid twice for it then, even if it is and I still down't own it. I actually have 4 books in my KU account right now that are not in KU anymore. I could not read them again in my subscription. Once I return the borrow, they go poof. 
So not the same as buying it. I buy it, its there. Everything I bought in 2008 is still in my account. Everything I borrowed is not. Different things.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> There is no guarantee that the book is still there in 2 years and basically I would have paid twice for it then, even if it is and I still down't own it. I actually have 4 books in my KU account right now that are not in KU anymore. I could not read them again in my subscription. Once I return the borrow, they go poof.
> So not the same as buying it. I buy it, its there. Everything I bought in 2008 is still in my account. Everything I borrowed is not. Different things.


If it's still there in 2 years and you download and read it again in KU, how do you figure you're paying twice for it?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Atunah said:


> There is no guarantee that the book is still there in 2 years and basically I would have paid twice for it then, even if it is and I still down't own it. I actually have 4 books in my KU account right now that are not in KU anymore. I could not read them again in my subscription. Once I return the borrow, they go poof.
> So not the same as buying it. I buy it, its there. Everything I bought in 2008 is still in my account. Everything I borrowed is not. Different things.


Authors are only paid the first time a reader borrows a book. So KU isn't like other digital rental services where content providers are paid each time something is rented.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Shelley K said:


> If it's still there in 2 years and you download and read it again in KU, how do you figure you're paying twice for it?


KU costs 9.99 each month? So any book I read in that month costs me divided the the amount of books I read? If I read four, they cost 2.50, if I read 5 they cost $2. If I read 3, math will kill me.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> KU costs 9.99 each month? So any book I read in that month costs me divided the the amount of books I read? If I read four, they cost 2.50, if I read 5 they cost $2. If I read 3, math will kill me.


I also subscribe and have never thought of it that way, especially since I read several books a month. I pay $9.99 for access to an immense library I can tap into at any time as many times as I want. I guess it's a potato, potahto situation.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Atunah,

I am not in KU.

You seemed to be contradicting yourself to me, and I was trying to understand what you were getting at.

Elizabeth did a great job explaining to you why, for some authors, comparing the payment for a full read to a sale royalty was a big part of deciding whether to be in or out of KU. You seemed upset by this.

This perplexes me. I still don't see how it relates you and your "hard-earned money," unless you think authors should stay in. But you said you didn't care if an author stayed in, so . . . I don't get it.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Atunah said:


> KU costs 9.99 each month? So any book I read in that month costs me divided the the amount of books I read? If I read four, they cost 2.50, if I read 5 they cost $2. If I read 3, math will kill me.


So, I guess you'd better read a lot of books so you can get your money's worth. Would it affect your sense that you're getting your money's worth if those authors got paid close to the same amount as they would for a sale royalty?


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

I can't do it...  

I tried to split some of my longer paragraphs, the ones that take up the whole KU page, and found that it messes with the flow. Maybe next time I'll write a longer book. In the meantime, I'll take the 400 KU pages for a 81k-word story.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

LadyStarlight said:


> A possible reason could be the people that keep saying they're happy with KU--even when they keep dropping the rate, like now. 28% down from the beggining of KU2, 11% down from last month. That means each month you have to make even MORE to make the SAME. That's not much of an reward to me.


Really? You really think Amazon are taking any notice at all of people who say they are happy?


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Atunah said:


> There is no guarantee that the book is still there in 2 years and basically I would have paid twice for it then, even if it is and I still down't own it. I actually have 4 books in my KU account right now that are not in KU anymore. I could not read them again in my subscription. Once I return the borrow, they go poof.
> So not the same as buying it. I buy it, its there. Everything I bought in 2008 is still in my account. Everything I borrowed is not. Different things.


I have a book in my KU account which isn't even available for sale on Amazon anymore. But why would you look at KU any differently from a library? If I go to my local library and take out a book, there is no guarantee they will have it in two years. They constantly sell books and not because they're getting newer editions of the same ones. I don't pay as much for my library access as I pay for KU, but I do pay. I see KU - as a reader - as kind of a library access.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Gator said:


> Except when it isn't.
> 
> In 2012, January was the lowest, because the KDP Select program was just getting started and Amazon was experimenting with how much to pay KDP Select publishers. So many bailed after January's payout announcement that Amazon pumped more money into the pot during the following months.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Minor note: only the first Cadfael book is in KU USA. The others in the series are not. There was a promo the other day, the first 10 books in the series for 1.99 each. And the first is in KU. Heck of a deal. My wife and I grabbed all 10 and will look forward to when the rest go on sale.
> 
> EDITED to fix.


Thanks. Guess I missed that.


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## Chinmoy Mukherjee (Apr 26, 2014)

Where can I check that? It does not seem to appear in my amazon kdp report.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Randall Wood said:


> OR, do the reps even know!?! How do we know they aren't a bunch of prisoners working off a spreadsheet of canned responses for $.13/hour at a call center inside cell-block 9!?!


I'm falling off my chair laughing. Thank you.


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## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

2014

KOLL/KU Global Fund for July was $2.785 million  (average payout $1.80), 31 days of KOLL, 14 days of KU  --------1.547 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for August was $4.7 million (average payout $1.54) full month of KOLL and KU--------3.052 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for September was $5 million (average payout $1.52) full month of KOLL and KU-------3.29 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for October was $5.5 million (average payout $1.33) full month of KOLL and KU ---------4.14 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for November was $6.5 million (average payout $1.40) full month of KOLL and KU--------4.64 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for December was $7.25 million (average payout $1.43) full month of KOLL and KU --------5.07 million borrows

2015

KOLL/KU Global Fund for January was $8.50 million (average payout $1.3 full month of KOLL and KU -----------6.15 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for February was $8.00 million (average payout $1.41) full month of KOLL and KU ------------5.67 million borrows  (28 days February)
KOLL/KU Global Fund for March was $9.30 million (average payout $1.34) full month of KOLL and KU ---------------6.94 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for April was $9.80 million (average payout $1.36) full month of KOLL and KU -----------------7.21 million borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for May was $10.8 million (average payout $1.37) full month of KOLL and KU -----------------7.88 millon borrows
KOLL/KU Global Fund for June was $11.3 million (average payout $1.35) full month of KOLL and KU-----------------8.37 million borrows

KOLL/KU Global Fund for July was $11.5 million (average payout per KENP is $0.005779)---------------------------1,989,963,661 pages (KENP) read
KOLL/KU Global Fund for August was $11.8 million(average payout per KENP is $0.00514)--------------------------2,295,719,844 pages (KENP) read
KOLL/KU Global Fund for September was $12.0 million (average payout per KENPC is $0.00507)--------------------2,366,863,909 pages (KENP) read
KOLL/KU Global Fund for October was $12.4 million (average payout per KENPC is $0.004809) ---------------------2,578,498,648 pages (KENP) read
KOLL/KU Global Fund for November was $12.7 million (average payout per KENPC is $0.00492) --------------------2,581,300,813 pages (KENP) read
KOLL/KU Global Fund for December was $13.5 million (average payout per KENPC is $0.00461) --------------------2,928,416485 pages (KENP) read

2016

KOLL/KU Global Fund for January was $15.0 million (average payout per KENPC is $0.00411)-----------------------3,649,635,036 pages (KENP) read




If the Global Fund was $16.8 million instead of $15 million, then the average payout would equal to $0.00461 of last month. 
If the Global Fund was $18 million instead of $15 million, then the average payout would equal to $0.00492 of November 2015.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Nic said:


> I have a book in my KU account which isn't even available for sale on Amazon anymore. But why would you look at KU any differently from a library? If I go to my local library and take out a book, there is no guarantee they will have it in two years. They constantly sell books and not because they're getting newer editions of the same ones. I don't pay as much for my library access as I pay for KU, but I do pay. I see KU - as a reader - as kind of a library access.


But that is kind my point, isn't it. You borrow them, just like you borrow from a library. You don't own them.

KU costs $120 a year and I look at it as a subscription service. So my point still stands. A borrow is not a sale. The exchange of goods is not the same. The consumer on the other end doesn't own it. If they buy it they do.



Mystery Maven said:


> So, I guess you'd better read a lot of books so you can get your money's worth. Would it affect your sense that you're getting your money's worth if those authors got paid close to the same amount as they would for a sale royalty?


Well of course I want to get my money's worth? Why else would I subscribe to a service that costs more than Prime, more than Hulu and more than netflix, if I didn't make sure to get my value out of it. Books are there to be read. 
But I am also always aware that I never own those books, they are gone when I am done and return it. I did not buy them. So overall, I need to read enough a month to make it worth. Otherwise I might as well just buy them outright and actual own them. That kind if math I can still handle.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Atunah said:


> But that is kind my point, isn't it. You borrow them, just like you borrow from a library. You don't own them.
> KU costs $120 a year and I look at it as a subscription service. So my point still stands. A borrow is not a sale.


It's the rest of your conclusions which don't follow, I'd say. You are treating the subscription fee as if it was a sales price in some of them.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Nic said:


> It's the rest of your conclusions which don't follow, I'd say. You are treating the subscription fee as if it was a sales price in some of them.


No I don't. I don't own the books I read through it, so its not a sale, its a borrow. If I have a subscription to netflix, but never watch anything, I'd cancel it as it wouldn't be worth it. Folks have cancelled Scribd because they weren't using it much. I cancelled it because they yanked out a lot of what I read. I might have found a couple of reads a month on there, but at 8.99 a month, it would not have been worth it as I could have just purchased those books. I cancelled KU when it first came out, back when. There just wasn't enough for me to read in it and so lost its value. I re-joined last July as more novels have been placed in and I have a large wishlist now. 
Like most folks I have a budget. I can only pay for entertainment items I actually use and that are worth it.

But it still comes down to the same thing. Its a borrow and not a sale. I do not have it anymore. So the expectation to be paid the same as a sale, even though I don't have your item anymore, that is what I found a bit odd. That is all I am saying.

eta: I feel like talking in circles at this point. So I am going to bow out of this discussion.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Its a borrow and not a sale. I do not have it anymore. So the expectation to be paid the same as a sale, even though I don't have your item anymore, that is what I found a bit odd. That is all I am saying.


With respect, that isn't actually any of your business as a reader though. Compensation for services provided is a major part of the agreement between Amazon and KU authors who give up earning potential elsewhere to be part of the program. As with any business relationship, particularly one demanding exclusivity, there should be quid pro quo.

Remember, Amazon is the one providing the subscription service to you, and how much they do/don't pay their providers shouldn't concern the end user i.e. you.


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## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

Atunah said:


> No I don't. I don't own the books I read through it, so its not a sale, its a borrow. If I have a subscription to netflix, but never watch anything, I'd cancel it as it wouldn't be worth it. Folks have cancelled Scribd because they weren't using it much. I cancelled it because they yanked out a lot of what I read. I might have found a couple of reads a month on there, but at 8.99 a month, it would not have been worth it as I could have just purchased those books. I cancelled KU when it first came out, back when. There just wasn't enough for me to read in it and so lost its value. I re-joined last July as more novels have been placed in and I have a large wishlist now.
> Like most folks I have a budget. I can only pay for entertainment items I actually use and that are worth it.
> 
> But it still comes down to the same thing. Its a borrow and not a sale. I do not have it anymore. So the expectation to be paid the same as a sale, even though I don't have your item anymore, that is what I found a bit odd. That is all I am saying.


I think the idea is you aren't paying for books, you're paying for access to books. So you can't really neatly compare it as (1) sale vs (1) borrow. The reason the service is worth $10/mo is because so many authors have placed their works into it.

But they still gotta eat, and if a majority of KU subs are exceptionally active readers, and if most of those readers tend to read most of the books just once, and when the service pays per-page but has such a wealth of materials that it's easy to quit a book midway, and when many of the subs are folks that are interested in or at least open to self-pub authors, those authors begin to feel like they're lending a tremendous degree of value to the service but not receiving fair compensation in return. Especially for authors that haven't yet reached that critical mass in readership that makes it easy to justify as an economy of scale. Leaving KU can be a difficult decision because it's a bit of a behemoth and I imagine it's great for exposure.

I don't think most of the authors in this thread are trying to get more money out of you, but rather a greater percentage of your money out of Amazon.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Atunah said:


> No I don't. I don't own the books I read through it, so its not a sale, its a borrow.


If you divide the fee by the amount of books you read in a month and compare that to book prices, you are treating the subscription fee as you would treat a sum reserved for sales.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

phillipgessert said:


> I think the idea is you aren't paying for books, you're paying for access to books. So you can't really neatly compare it as (1) sale vs (1) borrow. The reason the service is worth $10/mo is because so many authors have placed their works into it.
> ....
> I don't think most of the authors in this thread are trying to get more money out of you, but rather a greater percentage of your money out of Amazon.


This.


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## MarkTH (Mar 18, 2015)

Well, it's basic economics.  They'll keep dropping until they lose enough authors that they stabilize the payout.  They don't care about the little fish (me), just about the big authors.  If they leave, then things will change.  Unfortunately, there isn't anybody else out there with the market share that Amazon has.  The only thing you can do is write good stories, and hope things change.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

MarkTH said:


> Well, it's basic economics. They'll keep dropping until they lose enough authors that they stabilize the payout. They don't care about the little fish (me), just about the big authors. If they leave, then things will change. Unfortunately, there isn't anybody else out there with the market share that Amazon has. The only thing you can do is write good stories, and hope things change.


There's one other thing - make things change. Amazon have basically offered authors two bad choices: lack of visibility, or a decreasing and unstable payout. They will respond if enough good authors pull out, or other retailers gain market share, or if they get bad publicity as a result of their treatment of authors which then leads more authors to pull out. Authors aren't powerless in this relationship, we're the ones the entire industry relies upon.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Word.


Thanks. I was a previous word user


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Atunah--in case you're still looking, I get it. It's a borrow, not a sale. It's not in your library. It's different. 

For me (not speaking for anybody else), it's about total dollars, mostly but not entirely. Borrows do cannibalize sales, in my case, and you are giving up career-building wide, so there's a real tradeoff. There's a long-term potential benefit to going wide. However, as long as the borrows + sales, and the ease of promotion within Select, add up to a better writer experience for me (because I don't have to fret about the money, which is my chief concern), it works for me.

The other thing is READERS. I realized yesterday how much of why I write is to get read. That might seem so stupid and self-evident, but it's real. I love that lots of people are reading my books and enjoying them. The way I can get most readers--that's the best route for me, both in an emotional and a financial sense.


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## bang on the drum (Nov 2, 2015)

Ros_Jackson said:


> more authors to pull out.


You first.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I don't have KU, because I don't want to pay to borrow books.  I don't have to pay to borrow books from a library, I don't understand why I would pay amazon so I could borrow books.  I have amazon prime, which gives me one free borrow a month and gives me access to streaming and free shipping (the real reason I got it).  I don't do netflix or any other "pay to stream" service.  

KU has always confused me from the authors' side.  To me, it would make sense if you got paid per borrow, but then I guess people got their panties in a twist because a 20 page short story was making the same amount as a 500 page novel.  So amazon went to "per page", right?  But people are gaming that system also.  And amazon, instead of picking an amount per page and sticking to it is changing the pay out every month?  Illogical in my eyes.

Also, some that was brought up here that I would like clarified...  subscriber borrows a book and reads 100 pages, then returns the book.  a few months (or years) later, the subscriber borrows the book again and reads 200 pages.  what does the author get each time?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

telracs said:


> Also, some that was brought up here that I would like clarified... subscriber borrows a book and reads 100 pages, then returns the book. a few months (or years) later, the subscriber borrows the book again and reads 200 pages. what does the author get each time?


As I understand it, we get paid once per page per reader. So the author gets paid for the first 100 pages the first time and the subsequent 200 pages the next time. They wouldn't get paid twice for the same page reads from the same subscriber.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Nic said:


> If you divide the fee by the amount of books you read in a month and compare that to book prices, you are treating the subscription fee as you would treat a sum reserved for sales.


Yep.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

KaiW said:


> With respect, that isn't actually any of your business as a reader though. Compensation for services provided is a major part of the agreement between Amazon and KU authors who give up earning potential elsewhere to be part of the program. As with any business relationship, particularly one demanding exclusivity, there should be quid pro quo.
> 
> Remember, Amazon is the one providing the subscription service to you, and how much they do/don't pay their providers shouldn't concern the end user i.e. you.


Exactly. Atunah, my question still stands: Would you feel less like you got your money's worth if the authors you read get paid an amount close to a sale royalty for your reads?

You're still paying $9.99. So what's it to you?

I kept waiting for you to make your argument cohesive by saying Amazon might raise the subscription fee if they paid authors more, but you never did.

And of course, as EAW explained in great detail, that's really not what was being discussed. People were simply using the royalty versus KU payout to help decide whether to stay in KU. Because being in KU means giving up some sales, for most people. So that number is relevant to the discussion. Which is a totally different topic than the direction you've taken things.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

I once read about a frozen yogurt shop that had a massive fan base. The owner aggressively controlled portions by cup size (unrelated to bras). He told his employees to fill customers' cups nearly full, stop the machine and then in full of the customers, add more yogurt to meet the predefined portion size. Customers thought they were getting something extra.

He told his employees to never EVER overfill the customer's cup and remove excess to meet the portion size. Why? Because once the yogurt is in the cup, customers think they have a right to it, even if the amount is grossly in excess of normal.

What's my point? That people are funny in the way they form expectations. And funnier still when those oddly-formed expectations inform a sense of entitlement.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

KaiW said:


> With respect, that isn't actually any of your business as a reader though. Compensation for services provided is a major part of the agreement between Amazon and KU authors who give up earning potential elsewhere to be part of the program. As with any business relationship, particularly one demanding exclusivity, there should be quid pro quo.
> 
> Remember, Amazon is the one providing the subscription service to you, and how much they do/don't pay their providers shouldn't concern the end user i.e. you.


And with all respect to you, if you don't want readers chiming in, don't post on the internet. And please don't tell us what should be of concern to us. Some of of care very much how much authors make and base our decisions on it. And we do have brains enough to understand the business aspects of it.

If you feel something is between you and amazon, talk to them privately. If you want to keep it among authors, do it via e-mail. KB is a forum for all people interested in kindle, so people who read, people who write, people who do both and people who do neither will read it. As can people who don't even post here.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

bang on the drum said:


> You first.


I currently only have one book in, and it's not staying there indefinitely. However, this is more about giving people the information they need to make the best decision. I may not have reached my tipping point to take that book out, but there could be other authors who have reached theirs but just haven't noticed yet.


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## eswrite (Sep 12, 2014)

Good thing my number of read pages per day has hit the floor. Win-win, right?


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Readers are free to chime in, and authors are free to ask them to clarify what they mean when they assert that authors shouldn't get paid as much for a borrow as a sale, and bring up their "hard-earned money."

Readers are free to enter a discussion, in which authors were comparing numbers and trying to speculate about which route would pay their bills.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

I think Atunah was making a good point but it got lost in the back and forth.

A borrow is not the same as a sale.

Anyone who has been doing this since before KU started can assure you that all those borrows would not have been sales if you weren't in KU. So saying things like "I lose $1 a borrow" is simply incorrect because it assumes everyone who borrowed the book would have bought it instead if that was the only option. If that were the case, not a single one of us would be in KU. None.

What happens instead is you might make only a dollar per borrow instead of two on a sale, but if five people borrow instead of two people buying, then in the end you've made a profit by being in KU. That's the kind of decision we're faced with, and working under the assumption that we'd have gotten 5 sales instead of 5 borrows if only we weren't in KU confuses the issue and hurts our ability to make an informed choice.

Borrowing lowers the bar. People consume more books and are willing to risk borrowing a book they wouldn't risk buying. In exchange for that lowered threshold of getting in front of the reader we're willing to take less money per unit. There does come a point where the amount per unit gets so low that a no borrows and a few more sales would make more money overall. When we hit that point, then pulling out is the prudent thing to do. But don't count every borrow as a loss of a sale when the numbers are probably closer to 35% than 100%.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm not quite sure why so many responses have gotten heated against Atunah trying to explain her position.  I don't find her point of view at all difficult to understand.

Yes, Amazon has determined the amount a KU subscription costs.  Yes, authors are not being compensated for borrows at a rate that equals (or comes close to) the compensation of a sale.  Yes, authors need to decide, each for themselves, whether the compensation they receive is worth keeping their books in a voluntary program.  Yes, discussing the ins-and-outs of that decision process relative to borrows versus sales is a logical thing to discuss here among peers and those both in and out of the KDP Select program.  No, how much readers pay to belong to the program or how many books they read while in it does not change whether authors think they are being compensated fairly and is not, I don't think, a consideration of those who join the program.

The point I believe Atunah has tried to make and I attempted to expand on earlier in the thread is that Amazon has put this subscription program in place for the advantage of the readers.  In order to make it work, it seems to me that the compensation of a borrow can never equal the compensation of a sale.  If readers must pay a larger subscription amount so author compensation works out to at least roughly equal to a sale, why have a subscription program?  Isn't that why other big-name subscription programs have failed?  If the subscription price needs to keep pace with cost of a sale, then why shouldn't readers just buy the book (or more correctly, the license to read) outright and keep the book in our accounts forever?

I totally understand wanting to be compensated for your work at the highest rate feasible.  I totally understand questioning the way Amazon slides the amount per page around every month and whether KU can work to your advantage or you are being screwed every month.  What I object to, and I believe what Atunah was objecting to, was specifically the discussion on whether the compensation rate for a borrow should be consistent with compensation for a sale because authors have to pay bills.  The readers who use the subscription program like it because it is a better value for their book dollars because they have to pay bills too.  If the subscription method has to sustain the same compensation as a sale, it's going to fail because, to repeat one last time, a borrow is a borrow and a sale is a sale - they can't be equal for the program to work, IMO.


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## dragontucker (Jul 18, 2014)

There are more subscribers to KU than ever. Doesn't that help make up for a bit for the lower payout?


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

But authors were discussing reads versus sale royalties in order to calculate the cost/benefit to them. It wasn't a philosophical discussion.

Atunah never brought up the idea that Amazon might have to increase the subscription rate.

So she came across as saying, "That's not fair! Why should you get paid more?" Without explaining how it would affect her if we did. I'm sorry, but it sounded mean-spirited, not to mention off-topic to me, since the discussion wasn't really about "fairness."


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Mystery Maven said:


> But authors were discussing reads versus sale royalties in order to calculate the cost/benefit to them. It wasn't a philosophical discussion.
> 
> Atunah never brought up the idea that Amazon might have to increase the subscription rate.
> 
> So she came across as saying, "That's not fair! Why should you get paid more?" Without explaining how it would affect her if we did. I'm sorry, but it sounded mean-spirited, not to mention off-topic to me, since the discussion wasn't really about "fairness."


That's not what I saw at all. She was pointing out an obvious logical flaw when people were equating sales to borrows. Sure, she explained it from the perspective of the reader, when you buy something you own it, when you rent it, you pay less for it but you don't get to keep it. But the heart of what she said is correct. Borrowing is not owning. A system where people paid full price to borrow a book is doomed to fail. The same way it has failed when others tried it.


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## AlpacaPicnic (Aug 12, 2015)

Mystery Maven said:


> But authors were discussing reads versus sale royalties in order to calculate the cost/benefit to them. It wasn't a philosophical discussion.
> 
> Atunah never brought up the idea that Amazon might have to increase the subscription rate.
> 
> So she came across as saying, "That's not fair! Why should you get paid more?" Without explaining how it would affect her if we did. I'm sorry, but it sounded mean-spirited, not to mention off-topic to me, since the discussion wasn't really about "fairness."


I never saw her as coming across as "Not Fair!" I saw her trying to explain from someone not financially invested in how much Amazon pays authors why it's different in appearance and why logically it doesn't really make sense to pay the same to an author for a borrow as it does for a sale.

Then it devolved as authors, who are financially invested in what Amazon pays, told her what they felt they should get paid and that her perception as a reader was invalid, even though without readers authors would have no income. It seems to me that authors got very defensive when they felt like their logic was being challenged and jumped at the chance to reduce her opinion because she's "just" a reader.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

kcmorgan said:


> That's not what I saw at all. She was pointing out an obvious logical flaw when people were equating sales to borrows. Sure, she explained it from the perspective of the reader, when you buy something you own it, when you rent it, you pay less for it but you don't get to keep it. But the heart of what she said is correct. Borrowing is not owning.* A system where people paid full price to borrow a book is doomed to fail. The same way it has failed when others tried it.*


But she didn't bring that up. I tried to get her to bring it up (in case that was actually what she was trying to say) by asking questions, and she didn't. It appeared that it never occurred to her. So I don't think that was her point at all.


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## JE_Owen (Feb 22, 2015)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Well, for me, this was north of 3 mil page reads in Jan.


My hat is off to you Sir.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Mystery Maven said:


> But she didn't bring that up. I tried to get her to bring it up (in case that was actually what she was trying to say) by asking questions, and she didn't. It appeared that it never occurred to her. So I don't think that was her point at all.


I think that's exactly the point and when Atunah wasn't able to explain it to your satisfaction, others have come in to try and expand on it.

Atunah said: "I pay bills too, so why I use subscription for some stuff. Its still not the same though. Borrow is borrow and purchase is purchase. Why should the income from a borrow be the same than a purchase when I do not have anything after I read it. Its gone like a puff of smoke, along with my precious hard earned money."

I am well aware that authors have to pay bills, Duh. 

Just pointing out that one cannot expect the same payment for a borrow than for a purchase. I need to own those books, permanently in my account through KU for it to be the same. Maybe that is what they need to do? Let me keep everything I read through KU for good? Then it can be the same pay than a royalty."

In other words, if KU payments for a borrow should equal the payments for a sale, there is no point in having a borrowing program. She makes the distinction between keeping the license to read in her account and returning the book where she would have access to it again only if it were still available to borrow.

Can anyone give me an example of a rental product where the rental price automatically gives the maker/owner their sales price equivalent from a one-time usage? Isn't the goal of making your product available through a rental/subscription program to create quantity use from those who won't or can't spend the one-time cost of purchase?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

The nature of our forum (and one of the things that makes it valuable, I believe) is that readers and writers mingle.  And in the nature of ALL discussion forums, not everyone is going to agree. If a member's point of view isn't of interest to you, it's all right to not respond.  If you've made your point, move on to a different facet of the discussion.

In this case, Mystery Maven, you've expressed your opinion about the point Atunah was making.  You don't agree with her point. Others think it's valid.  I think it's time for you to agree to disagree with her on this one point and move on.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## AlpacaPicnic (Aug 12, 2015)

crebel said:


> In other words, if KU payments for a borrow should equal the payments for a sale, there is no point in having a borrowing program. She makes the distinction between keeping the license to read in her account and returning the book where she would have access to it again only if it were *still available to borrow*.


She would only have access to it if it were still available to borrow AND she were still willing to pay $9.99 to have access it through the borrow program. If she bought the book then it's on her Kindle account somewhere and she can re-read it every day if she wants with no additional out of pocket cost.

I think Atunah explained her position from a readers standpoint perfectly well. Maybe she wasn't as verbose as others would have liked but then again, she admitted she's a reader, not an author.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

telracs said:


> And with all respect to you, if you don't want readers chiming in, don't post on the internet. And please don't tell us what should be of concern to us. Some of of care very much how much authors make and base our decisions on it. And we do have brains enough to understand the business aspects of it.
> 
> If you feel something is between you and amazon, talk to them privately. If you want to keep it among authors, do it via e-mail. KB is a forum for all people interested in kindle, so people who read, people who write, people who do both and people who do neither will read it. As can people who don't even post here.


Absolutely, but Atunah tried to shape her perception of value from a reader perspective and how much/little she feels KU authors should be paid. My point was that the declining payment is of less concern to her bottom line (none actually as it doesn't affect her at all financially) than it is to an author trying to decide whether or not to stay in the program.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2016)

It staggers me the authors who climbed into a reader for expressing an opinion about KU. Some seemed to have forgotten that without *readers*, you wouldn't earn a single penny... maybe you might learn something by listening to an opinion from someone who isn't an author and who doesn't have a dog in the fight?


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

KaiW said:


> Absolutely, but Atunah tried to shape her perception of value from a reader perspective and how much/little she feels KU authors should be paid. My point was that the declining payment is of less concern to her bottom line (none actually as it doesn't affect her at all financially) than it is to an author trying to decide whether or not to stay in the program.


Actually it does affect her. If we're trying to decide whether to stay in or leave and we're thinking that every borrow is a lost sale, which is pretty much how several people worded it, then there is incentive to leave which means as a subscriber her options become lower. Something she's already experienced with Scribd. So if I saw people mistakenly thinking that they were being cheated out of tons of sales based on a 1:1 borrow calculation in a discussion on if they should leave the program or not, I'd also point out that borrows and sales aren't the same.

She even said something like if you're going to drop, let me know so I can grab your books now. So yes, she does have a stake in us making decisions based off of miscalculations.


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## Mxz (Jan 17, 2015)

Well, Amazon still needs to fix their page count system.  Using different programs shouldn't affect the page count or the number of paragraphs, etc.  My book is a little more than 72,000 words on Microsoft without the back and front matter and it dropped from 425 to 376.  They need to develop some type of system to count the words.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Tilly said:


> It staggers me the authors who climbed into a reader for expressing an opinion about KU. Some seemed to have forgotten that without *readers*, you wouldn't earn a single penny... maybe you might learn something by listening to an opinion from someone who isn't an author and who doesn't have a dog in the fight?


Ah c'mon this is v clearly a coversation about declining KU income, nobody's dissing readers per se.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Spendings-profits bring out the worst in everybody; this just happens to be about Kindle Unlimited.  

Sometimes it's important to step back and get some perspective. Readers, I think what some of these authors are trying to say is that they spent months, sometimes years working on their books. They don't see what you see when they look at their amazon page. To you, it's a book, fungible compared to all the other books on the market. But to them, their specific book is special, and they want to feel that their work is appreciated. I'm not saying readers' opinions are any less valuable than authors', just that it's coming from a completely different angle.

That being said, it would help if authors also remembered why they started writing in the first place. Most of us became authors because we had a story to tell, not because we wanted to get rich. This is not a profitable field. (If I made the USA Bestsellers list, I would still make less than I pay in taxes.) But it gives us an audience for our art. Remember how hard it was trying to get friends and family to read our beta drafts? Well, the KU readers are reading it voluntarily and getting us paid. 

I'm done with the soap box now


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## MarkTH (Mar 18, 2015)

Personally, I want to write books _and_ get rich. I doubt that will ever happen, but, what we need to look at is not readers and writers, but Amazon profits. If, they're expanding their profit margin by squeezing us, then there's a problem. If the amount of money going into the pool from the KU is expanding, i.e. the amount of people subscribing to their service is expanding and they're making more money, but they just don't want to pay us, there's a problem. But, it's up to the individual writer to decide if they're going to stay with KU or leave it. Everybody here is going to have to do a cost benefit analysis to see if it's worth it to them to stay with KU. Eventually, if we all decide that we prefer to take our business elsewhere, there will be fewer books for people to 'borrow', causing fewer people to join KU, and then market economics will make them reevaluate the program.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> This is where I'm going to disagree.
> 
> I started writing because I had a story to tell. I began publishing, because I wanted to make a living. One does not need to do both to express themselves.


Again... taxes, though how do you distribute a book without publishing it?



MarkTH said:


> Personally, I want to write books _and_ get rich. I doubt that will ever happen, but, what we need to look at is not readers and writers, but Amazon profits.


One thing I like about authors is that they're not afraid of a challenge. Unfortunately, every time I hear Amazon, I think billion-dollar corporation with boxes of code monkeys and tanks of sharks. There's no winning against them. It's "lose a little" or "lose a lot."


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

blancheking said:


> Spendings-profits bring out the worst in everybody; this just happens to be about Kindle Unlimited.


Yes. One of the worst things about KU is that it pits readers against writers. Every page is worth the same, regardless of who wrote it, or how much a reader may value it.

For book sales, readers and writers come to an agreement about how much they value a book... price too high, and readers won't buy. Price too low, and you can't afford to keep publishing. For borrows, one size fits all, and it's set by Amazon. If Amazon decide to increase payouts, they'll eventually need to raise subscriptions, which hurts readers. If they decide to cut payouts to keep subscriptions low, they hurt writers.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Add me to the group who wants to write for love of the job AND who wants to get paid. I feel really bad for the reader in this thread because she was treated as if her opinion didn't matter. If that were true, none of us would have careers. She never once, however, said writers deserved less money. If you heard that, clean your ears out. She said why she believed borrows and buys were different -- and they are.
The simple fact of the matter is that paying the same amount to borrow books as buying them makes zero sense from a business standpoint. Take your emotions out of the conversation and look at it as Amazon does. Quite frankly paying out the same for a borrow as a buy is unreasonable, unfeasible and unsustainable. It cannot work. Period. If that's what you want and expect you should get out now. KU is not for you and never was.
Now, granted, I believe the graft has been skewing payouts for months. It's not going to magically disappear, although it will get better. This isn't going to be the last time they adjust KENPC either. Get ready, because it's going to happen over and over. If you can't handle it now you won't be able to handle it then. Get out.
Anazon doesn't owe anyone a living. They are not your employers. We are their suppliers. The cost of doing business on that playing field always changes, no matter the job description.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Anazon doesn't owe anyone a living. They are not your employers. We are their suppliers.


No, we're a way to tie readers to Amazon so they'll buy more toilet paper. Amazon will keep reducing the KU payouts and making the terms and conditions worse until they lose too many writers. Then they'll start over with KU3.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Mxz said:


> Well, Amazon still needs to fix their page count system. Using different programs shouldn't affect the page count or the number of paragraphs, etc. My book is a little more than 72,000 words on Microsoft without the back and front matter and it dropped from 425 to 376. They need to develop some type of system to count the words.


Gosh dangit! It is not fair (wah wah wah) that I am getting so much less for a 75,000 word novel!!!

The more people who post the worse I feel! FWIW I did contact them and they told me (of course) that the page count is correct. No Amazon, no it is not. *pouts*


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

This was a discussion where authors were factoring the value of a sale versus a read as part of the equation in their decision whether to be in KU.

It was math.

In spite of EAW's valiant effort to explain this, a reader misunderstood this to be equating reads with sales (on an emotional/fairness basis), and responded emotionally.

I have not engaged in the discussion of whether (in fairness, morally speaking, etc.) a full read is as valuable as a sale, because that is a different topic, and it doesn't interest me.

And now, since the mods have declared that I ought to be finished speaking my mind, I guess I'm out.

ETA:
And one more thing: I don't see this as readers versus writers. I see points made or not made, and express my opinion about them if I feel compelled. I see individuals and individual arguments. I have fabulous readers and I love connecting with them through my characters. What does that have to do with this discussion?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

These discussions always end up so polarizing. Everybody's opinion is valid whether or not I agree with it. I think it's fascinating in an academic sense, but not worth jumping on people over. I certainly don't see a reader vs. writers, either.



writemore said:


> Gosh dangit! It is not fair (wah wah wah) that I am getting so much less for a 75,000 word novel!!!
> 
> The more people who post the worse I feel! FWIW I did contact them and they told me (of course) that the page count is correct. No Amazon, no it is not. *pouts*


Well, it won't matter much when the payout is so low that the 60 pages another writers gets and you don't for the same word count only amounts to 3 cents. Bright side!


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Well, it won't matter much when the payout is so low that the 60 pages another writers gets and you don't for the same word count only amounts to 3 cents. Bright side!


For a moment, the part that was supposed to make me feel better made me want to drink. Then I pulled out a calculator, that's actually 24 cents more a book, so back to raging people.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

crebel said:


> Yes, authors are not being compensated for borrows at a rate that equals (or comes close to) the compensation of a sale. Yes, authors need to decide, each for themselves, whether the compensation they receive is worth keeping their books in a voluntary program. Yes, discussing the ins-and-outs of that decision process relative to borrows versus sales is a logical thing to discuss here among peers and those both in and out of the KDP Select program.


In the original KU1 I earned much less per borrow (only 2 full length novels ever in the program) than a sale. However, on my one short story, I earned almost 4 times as much for a borrow as a sale. I knew that couldn't last, and it didn't. In KU2 my books originally earned more for a borrow than a sale. I got all but one of my full length books into the program even though I knew that couldn't last, and it didn't. Right now, with KENPC and payout adjustments, I still have 3 romances earning over $2.00 a borrow, one still earns more than a sale. I suspect that won't last either.

However, while borrows cannibalize sales to an extent that can only be estimated, I still believe I'm getting more readers with KU than without it. I'm certainly getting more subscribers to my mailing list than before and combined sales and KU income is higher. Since my "wide" income was never more than 5% of Amazon sales, for me KU is worthwhile. If that changes, so will what I do. Surely that's the bottom line for writers - every time the program changes, each of us has to reevaluate the decision again.

As a reader, I'm one of those I suspect will cause Amazon to change the KU program. At a guess they pay out more like $50 a month to authors than $9.99 because of me. I just can't believe there are enough readers who don't borrow their subscription's worth to compensate for readers like me - which I really believe means sooner or later there will have to be an extra charge for high volume readers.


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## writemore (Feb 3, 2016)

Shelley K said:


> Well, it won't matter much when the payout is so low that the 60 pages another writers gets and you don't for the same word count only amounts to 3 cents. Bright side!


Lol! Yes, bright side.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Anazon doesn't owe anyone a living. They are not your employers. We are their suppliers.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Boyd said:


> I still don't understand your message above... I am not a USA or NYT best seller that I'm aware of, and I make more than I pay in taxes. Heck, outside of this forum I'd be surprised if anybody had ever heard of me... but I grind away at the keyboard, day by day... Expressing my art and using Amazon as a vendor to distributi my product. I make a quiet, comfortable living doing so.


Then my congratulations to you. I can't do anything with my royalties; my tax forms currently tells me I've coughed up over $60,000 of taxes in the past year, and I'll see maybe a tenth of that back at most. So a couple hundred dollars extra in book royalties isn't going to make paying my student loans any easier.

My point was that as authors, we should be a little more respectful of our readers' opinions, since they're the most interesting we have at the moment. If we cared more about our demand for income than the contribution of our readers, we would have picked different careers, or at least, refrained from writing and did someone else with our time. And if we try to understand their approach to the market, we can figure out where Amazon is coming from and make a more economically-sound decision.

Anyway... happy tax season (not really)


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

blancheking said:


> Then my congratulations to you. I can't do anything with my royalties; my tax forms currently tells me I've coughed up over $60,000 of taxes in the past year, and I'll see maybe a tenth of that back at most. So a couple hundred dollars extra in book royalties isn't going to make paying my student loans any easier.


What for have you paid $60,000 in taxes? I've no idea about US tax rates, but that should amount then to - what? - at least $400,000 income? Give or take a little, depending on whether I got your tax rate right. So you take in $340,000 net and expect to also get your taxes back somehow?

This is definitely not how taxes work for Joe Public here.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Nic said:


> What for have you paid $60,000 in taxes? I've no idea about US tax rates, but that should amount then to - what? - at least $400,000 income? Give or take a little, depending on whether I got your tax rate right. So you take in $340,000 net and expect to also get your taxes back somehow?
> 
> This is definitely not how taxes work for Joe Public here.


Nah, that's closer to $220k, so he got to keep about $160k, and when we file we get to list exemptions and possibly get some back.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Nic said:


> What for have you paid $60,000 in taxes? I've no idea about US tax rates, but that should amount then to - what? - at least $400,000 income? Give or take a little, depending on whether I got your tax rate right. So you take in $340,000 net and expect to also get your taxes back somehow?


She overpaid her taxes, so she only owed about $55,000 in taxes. That leaves her roughly $100,000 to $110,000 after taxes, depending upon her tax situation. For the self-employed in the US, estimate 35% of your income will go to taxes unless you have a very high income (high tax bracket) or very low income (low tax bracket) or have loads of deductions.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Nic said:


> What for have you paid $60,000 in taxes? I've no idea about US tax rates, but that should amount then to - what? - at least $400,000 income? Give or take a little, depending on whether I got your tax rate right. So you take in $340,000 net and expect to also get your taxes back somehow?
> 
> This is definitely not how taxes work for Joe Public here.


US taxes vary by state and by income tax bracket; once you push past $100,000/yr your taxes start rising like crazy, because apparently our government doesn't understand that those of us fresh out of school need that $ to pay back our student loans (average ~100k at 8% annual interest). Where I am, it's ~33% of my net annual income. At $400,000, I think it's 45%, so basically that guy gets to see half his paycheck disappear every year.

I wish I made $400k a year... then I could pay my loans and retire when I'm 35.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Gator said:


> She overpaid her taxes, so she only owed about $55,000 in taxes. That leaves her roughly $100,000 to $110,000 after taxes, depending upon her tax situation. For the self-employed in the US, estimate 35% of your income will go to taxes unless you have a very high income (high tax bracket) or very low income (low tax bracket) or have loads of deductions.


Basically this. (except I'm not self-employed... I sold my soul to a large corporation, so the taxes were basically yoinked out of my paycheck before I got them.)


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Of course that's true (that there's an amount Amazon pays, and they decide how big the pot is when they see the reads. It's also true that January is always the lowest month, because, ahem, it's when people have Amazon gift cards and get new Kindles! I was hoping for .43, but I'm not too surprised by .41, as my borrows were, for me, huge in January--7.5 million).
> 
> But, yes, what you say has always been true. You can know that and accept it, and still treat Select as a viable business strategy. My business strategy is, "Do what makes me the most money with the least effort." When that stops being Select, that's when I change.


I think the month probably has a lot to do with it. I'm not even in KU and my sales went up in January. Then since I write erotica and romance they went up this month, probably due to V-day,


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Gator said:


> She overpaid her taxes, so she only owed about $55,000 in taxes. That leaves her roughly $100,000 to $110,000 after taxes, depending upon her tax situation. For the self-employed in the US, estimate 35% of your income will go to taxes unless you have a very high income (high tax bracket) or very low income (low tax bracket) or have loads of deductions.


Ah! And there I thought the USA are the land of the blessed and you only pay 15%.

But whether 15 or 35%, she will have earned 65 to 85%, which makes the initial comment nonsensical.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

blancheking said:


> Basically this. (except I'm not self-employed... I sold my soul to a large corporation, so the taxes were basically yoinked out of my paycheck before I got them.)


Lucky you! Your employer paid half your Social Security tax in addition to all the taxes you paid.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Nic said:


> Ah! And there I thought the USA are the land of the blessed and you only pay 15%.
> 
> But whether 15 or 35%, she will have earned 65 to 85%, which makes the initial comment nonsensical.


We're the land of ever changing politicians. It depends on who is in office.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Nic said:


> Ah! And there I thought the USA are the land of the blessed and you only pay 15%.
> 
> But whether 15 or 35%, she will have earned 65 to 85%, which makes the initial comment nonsensical.


I can't tell if this is a math or reading problem...

The initial comment was that some of us find our readership a little more interesting and valuable than our royalty checks, especially given that our royalty checks are nothing compared to what we pay in taxes. So unless you're suggesting I make more than $60k a year in royalties (flattering, but so far off base that it's comedy) my statement stands.

Anyway, it seems we're off-topic. In re: amazon KENP payouts... I spoke with a friend of mine who writes romance; she says it's the dialogue. More dialogue = more pages.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

blancheking said:


> I can't tell if this is a math or reading problem...
> 
> The initial comment was that some of us find our readership a little more interesting and valuable than our royalty checks, especially given that our royalty checks are nothing compared to what we pay in taxes. So unless you're suggesting I make more than $60k a year in royalties (flattering, but so far off base that it's comedy) my statement stands.


Apples and oranges. Do you pay the 60k on royalties? If no, then the 60k taxes (which you are paying on income NOT related to books, obviously) shouldn't be in this argument at all. The other responders referred to taxes paid on royalties.


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## JessieVerona (May 10, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> Just a couple of random comments.
> 
> First, Ive speculated in the past that it's quite possible KU may be engineered to operate at a loss if it's set up as a company loyalty program rather than as an ebook department-specific program. I have no idea how a corporation the size of Amazon might offset losses, or how their tax burden might be offset by designating certain programs as loyalty or marketing. Without that SPECIFIC inside knowledge, it's pretty difficult to say what's sustainable and what's not, or to speak to where the budget for KU is coming from and how (or if) it's already predetermined on an annual basis.
> 
> ...


You never fail to give me something to think about. Thanks, Phoenix.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I just uploaded a book yesterday, and the KENPC are so far more in line with average. (so far) I did nothing differently. And for the first time the estimated print pages look about right, too, matching about what the PB will end up being. Can't control any of it. Que sera, sera.


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## MarkTH (Mar 18, 2015)

I kind of disagree that buys and borrows are different.  The reader still gets to read the entire story.  If they want to reread it again, they can borrow it again.  Same as owning the book.  And, I'm a reader that belongs to KU, as well as a writer.  But, I still understand market dynamics.  It won't change until Amazon looses enough authors that they can't attract more readers to subscribe.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

"Can't control any of it. Que sera, sera."

That says a lot right there.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

MarkTH said:


> I kind of disagree that buys and borrows are different. The reader still gets to read the entire story. If they want to reread it again, they can borrow it again. Same as owning the book.


Not necessarily. There are 2 mystery series I started in KU. Neither is still available that way. Since I'm a re-reader that means to re-read any of those, I'd have to buy them now. Think about how many people here at KB put things in and then take them out.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Nic said:


> Apples and oranges. Do you pay the 60k on royalties? If no, then the 60k taxes (which you are paying on income NOT related to books, obviously) shouldn't be in this argument at all. The other responders referred to taxes paid on royalties.


It seems it was a reading problem, though more of a comprehension problem.  The point was that in the grand scheme of things, royalties don't contribute much to my life. Readers on the other hand, are fairly interesting, but we'll leave that for a different thread.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Tulonsae said:


> There is one difference (and it was mentioned way earlier in this thread). If the author pulls the book from KU, you can't borrow it again. But if the author pulls the book from Amazon, I'm pretty sure you get to keep it on your Kindle/Kindle app if you bought it.


The trouble currently is that from the readers' perspective, more books in KU > less books in KU, but from an author's perspective, it's the other way around. The goals are misaligned, and Amazon being the size it is, it probably won't care if a single author is making a couple thousand less every year because of the difference in pages.

Maybe the answer is to leave things be for now. If the readers like the book enough, they can always buy it after reading it in KU to ensure they'll have it later. If not... well, then maybe the KU read was what the book was worth to that reader in the first place.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

blancheking said:


> Maybe the answer is to leave things be for now. If the readers like the book enough, they can always buy it after reading it in KU to ensure they'll have it later. If not... well, then maybe the KU read was what the book was worth to that reader in the first place.


That was something I was trying to point out. For most books in most cases, a full read is it. The readers is not going to buy the book. The only real chance it has to be bought is if the book isn't in KU down the road when the reader wants to read it again. And worse, if the book IS still in KU when the reader wants to read it again, the author gets nothing. That's why authors look to a "borrow" to be close to a royalty, because they know if they accept a borrow on that book, then they have more or less forfeited a royalty from not just that reader, but also any reader on the other platforms since KU requires exclusivity.

I have KU and I don't look at as I paid my $10 for THAT book or THIS book. I paid my $10 for access to books in the program. Honestly, my husband uses it the most, he's currently reading the WOOL books. Bugs me the other night "Hey, you've ever heard of this WOOL thing? I think the author's name is Hugh Howey." ::eyeroll:: Yes, dear, clearly nothing I have said in the last few years about indie publishing and its heights registered. 

If you try to go I paid my $10 for these specific books, then you would be willing to tell Amazon you're only going to read 2,439 )$10 / .0041) pages in a month. For 300-KENPC books that's 8 books. For 400-KENPC books, which is more longer novel, that's 6 books. I don't think readers want to start having a cap on their pages where they have a quota. And if you read MORE than 2500 pages in a month, you DIDN'T pay authors for those page reads, you got them at a discount compared to the subscriber next to you.

I don't blame authors trying to evaluate the system for their personal catalogs and genres and writing speed and other variables for looking at a borrow rate to be somewhere in the ballpark of a royalty sale. As for other rental services, such as library and movies, it's really not apples to apples. If I rent a movie from Blockbuster, I can't keep it as part of my 10 movies forever, which you can with KU. In fact, towards the end of its life, Blockbuster offered a program like Netflix where users could have movies out indefinitely up to a certain quota. A library book is often more expensive than just buying the book at Barnes and Noble, that's why if you LOSE a library book, you can't just go to Barnes and Noble and go "Here, I lost Wicked, but here's a copy of the book I bought for you at the local book store to replace it." Even with library lends, there is a calculated premium placed on the fact that the book will be lent out again and again. Not all books, but many still have "library binding."


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

emilycantore said:


> Hopefully Google Play are putting that Oyster technology to use and will announce a kick-ass subscription program soon.


Seriously! I'd love to see a total overhaul of Google books at this point!


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> As for other rental services, such as library and movies, it's really not apples to apples. If I rent a movie from Blockbuster, I can't keep it as part of my 10 movies forever, which you can with KU.


Very true, though I didn't even think of Blockbuster until you said it. Makes me miss the 1990's and pizza-movie nights. 



emilycantore said:


> All the worries over stay in vs. go wide could come quickly to an end if Google Play and iBooks get their acts together. A non-exclusive subscription plan from either of them would probably break KU exclusivity within a year. Especially if authors started reporting their per page rates and earnings and they were higher than Amazon.


I wish they would, but something tells me Apple is worse than Amazon in the "hog all the books to ourselves" department. iBooks was already sued for attempting to fix prices along with the formerly big 6 (and shortly after, we got Penguin Random House, though I wish they had changed their name to Random Penguin.) At best, other distributors would be cautious in making some kind of agreement with Apple. At worst, it turns into another large-scale antitrust lawsuit.


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