# Amazon Debuts Self-Published Kindle Vella Story Format



## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Amazon Debuts Self-Published Kindle Vella Story Format


Kindle Vella is a new KDP self-publishing format that will allow authors to publish short serialized fiction that can be read on smartphones and mobile devices by using the Kindle iOS app.




www.publishersweekly.com







> Amazon is launching Kindle Vella, a new KDP self-publishing format, aimed at mobile readers that will allow authors to publish short serialized fiction that can be read on smartphones and mobile devices by using the Kindle iOS app. The service will begin accepting submissions today for publication sometime within the next few months.
> 
> The Kindle Vella service is designed to publish serialized 600 to 5,000 word short fiction. Through the service, initial story episodes will be free. After reading the initial free episodes, readers will be able to buy tokens that can be used to unlock later episodes of the stories they wish to follow. The price of the tokens, according to an Amazon spokesperson, will be announced at a later date. Authors will receive 50% of the token price.


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## Lady Runa (May 27, 2012)

Thank you very much! Very interesting. It had to happen sooner or later. It still differs from the traditional subscription model, as far as I can see, because the readers are supposed to pay for each installment separately. But as someone who grew up on SF magazine installments which were hugely addictive, I can only welcome it.


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## wearywanderer64 (Jan 27, 2013)

I just looked into it. It's only available to people who reside in the USA. But it is a fantastic idea as I, like many of you, used to read comics that had fictionalised series.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

WhatsApp on steroids


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

We can't know the word count in the example for the token cost.

I'm no expert on math, but here's what I have worked out.

If say the example is published at 5000 words per episode/chapter story as the maximum

Customer buys 24 episodes @ $1.99, or 140 tokens? this doesn't make sense if it's an actual example

In the example the reader would have to use 20 tokens for 1 episode.

50,000 story = 10 episodes. At that it would cost the reader @ $0.0829 per episode = $0.83 and the author would earn $0.415 @ 50%?

Yet

140 Tokens @ a cost of $1.99 for the example = 7 episodes = $0.28 per episode. = $2.80 for the 50,000 words and $1.40 for the author royalty?

Be interesting to know the actual cost of tokens/episode per word count.


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## NikOK (Jun 27, 2020)

Very interesting stuff. Might be time to dust off some of those random story ideas and make some shorter stuff.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Yes, it would be nice to do the math and see if having such shorts -- as opposed to having all the serializations in a book -- gives the author a better, worse, or same ROI.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Decon said:


> Be interesting to know the actual cost of tokens/episode per word count.


Considering the cluster f**k that happened when KU2 rolled out with its use ten cents per page read as their 'example' to get people on board, I'm in a holding pattern until I see what authors report before I make any decisions.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

wearywanderer64 said:


> I just looked into it. It's only available to people who reside in the USA. But it is a fantastic idea as I, like many of you, used to read comics that had fictionalised series.


They always start off with the USA, then the UK will get included. After that, who knows?


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

nail file said:


> I'm in a holding pattern until I see what authors report before I make any decisions.


It's not available to us here in Canada (yet), so we get to sit back and watch how this unfolds anyway.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

ImaWriter said:


> It's not available to us here in Canada (yet), so we get to sit back and watch how this unfolds anyway.


If I recall correctly we're not supposed to post popcorn gifs. But I am still holding the tub with all its buttery goodness.


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## Lady Runa (May 27, 2012)

ImaWriter said:


> It's not available to us here in Canada (yet), so we get to sit back and watch how this unfolds anyway.


I've just received an answer from them to the extent that "we'd request you to wait until the program is extended to non-U.S territories *which could happen soon*."


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Lady Runa said:


> *"could*"


Could is such a tricky word. It inspires hope and takes it away at the same time.


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

They've got it all worked out --except for telling us authors how much we'll be paid. Gee, I wonder why? If, like, each token costs a penny, we'd be paid a half-cent per episode, I wonder how many authors would sign up? Easy way to get around that, just don't tell the authors up front how much they'll be paid. (You can bet if it was a decent amount, they would have put it front and center.)


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## Loosecannon (May 9, 2013)

I went digging for more details and found this (Kindle Vella) :
*How will I earn royalties through Kindle Vella?*
You’ll earn 50% of what readers spend on the Tokens that are used to unlock your story’s episodes. You’ll also be eligible for a launch bonus based on customer activity and engagement. To make it easy for readers to find stories they love, the first few episodes of every story are free. 
And..."Readers can read the first three episodes in your story without redeeming Tokens "

THIS will affect your ROI for sure...KDP is being way too vague on compensation for my taste. And why 50%, as opposed to the 70% we get otherwise, maybe they think there is less customer friction for micro-transaction model they are pushing/experimenting with. And why is it only iOS for Apple devices and not Android too? Leaving money on the table I'd say.

More Content guidelines, with restrictions on previously pubbed stuff:
*Content*
Kindle Vella is a serial reading experience. To protect readers from purchasing Kindle Vella content they have already read in a different format, you cannot:

Incorporate your Kindle Vella content into other long-form content (e.g., a book) in any language. If you wish to incorporate an episode or story into other content, you must unpublish all episodes of that story from Kindle Vella.
Publish in Kindle Vella content that is in the public domain or freely available on the web.
Break down your previously published book or long-form content into Episodes and republish in Kindle Vella, even if that book or long-form content is no longer available or is written in another language. If your Episode or Story is derived from another work you have authored (e.g., it continues the story from a book), you may include up to 5,000 words of content from the other work in the first Episode to bridge the story, provided you control the rights to do so.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

MMSN said:


> They've got it all worked out --except for telling us authors how much we'll be paid. Gee, I wonder why? If, like, each token costs a penny, we'd be paid a half-cent per episode, I wonder how many authors would sign up? Easy way to get around that, just don't tell the authors up front how much they'll be paid. (You can bet if it was a decent amount, they would have put it front and center.)


It's still "months" (Amazon's word not mine) away from public release. They're letting the writers know early so they can plan and maybe figure out what they might want to test the new platform with. Would it be great to know what the writers will get paid so you can figure out if you want to specifically write a serialized novella for release day? Sure...so maybe we'll find out since we're still months out. 

If the pricing is as stupid as you're postulating -- half a cent for 5000 words-- no one will participate. Anyone who writes something specifically for serialization before the pricing information is released can instead sell it to magazines, post it on their webpage, rewrite as a novel, use it for Patreon, or whatever. I think we're all capable of figuring that out, just like we currently decide if we want to go wide, or exclusively with Amazon.

I'm not sure what you expect, but you need to know everything that is involved (as you say "They've got it all worked out") before you can do a proper cost-analysis to determine pricing for the customer (they've already said the author percentage is 50%).

I may or may not use the platform... and a large part of that will depend on how the authors are compensated. But I will note that typically, terms at release generally favor the creator because they need to entice the creators to produce the product for them. As time goes by, Amazon notoriously diminishes the amount authors earn--just look to KU--to as low as possible before they lose too many creators. Just guessing, but it'll probably be the best deal to hop in on release day--if the deal sucks, pull it off.


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## latenightwriter (Nov 14, 2017)

*Royalties*
You’ll earn 50% of what readers spend on the Tokens that are used to unlock your story’s episodes. You’ll also be eligible for a launch bonus based on customer activity and engagement. To make it easy for readers to find stories they love, the first few episodes of every story are free. The number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode is determined by the episode’s word count at the rate of one token per 100 words. You can view the number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode on the episode setup page. 

Here's how earnings per episode will be calculated:



*(Number of Tokens to unlock episode) * (Tokens bundle price/# Tokens in bundle - taxes and fees) * (50% rev share) = Earnings per episode*

For example, here's how we calculate earnings for a 3,025 word episode (30 Tokens) when the Tokens are purchased on the web in a 200 Tokens bundle versus an 1,100 Tokens bundle. In this example, we are assuming no taxes or fees. 



*Episode purchased with 200 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($1.99/200 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1493
*Episode purchased with 1,100 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($9.99/1100 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1362


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

And, we still have to do al the advertising and promotion ourselves. When you factor in the expense and time, your already in the hole. My book, Seattle Quake 9.2 sells for $9.99 of which I get approximately $6.34. Someone read it in KU recently (after I pulled it out) and my cut is $1.98.


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## latenightwriter (Nov 14, 2017)

Marti talbott said:


> And, we still have to do al the advertising and promotion ourselves. When you factor in the expense and time, your already in the hole. My book, Seattle Quake 9.2 sells for $9.99 of which I get approximately $6.34. Someone read it in KU recently (after I pulled it out) and my cut is $1.98.


Well the thumbs-up and follow feature is new and unique. Part of what's difficult as a Kindle Author is getting people on your mailing list. This has a feature much like YouTube where people subscribe and are automatically notified that you have a new release out. If you are someone who can churn out a new chapter every 1,2,3 days, you are going to be notifying your entire follower group automatically. If you get fave'd enough, you get to be on a leaderboard weekly which is also more automatic exposure that you don't get from Kindle. So right there you have 3 advertising features that are automatically built in that you don't get through regular KDP that could definitely help authors who write consistently and grow a fan base.


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

Anybody find the Vella contract on the site? I wanted to look at it but can't find it.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Considering Wattpad has been using their serialized fiction platform to expand into other media (most notably film and television).. it's entirely plausible to think Amazon might be doing the same.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Loosecannon said:


> Break down your previously published book or long-form content into Episodes and republish in Kindle Vella, *even if that book or long-form content is no longer available* or is written in another language. If your Episode or Story is derived from another work you have authored (e.g., it continues the story from a book), you may include up to 5,000 words of content from the other work in the first Episode to bridge the story, provided you control the rights to do so.


That part makes me sad. I have a two book series that was published for only a short time before I pulled it down years ago. It would have been great to give those books a new lease on life. Oh well. 😭


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

I'm not sure I understand what the appeal of this is supposed to be?

Why would anyone publish a short in Vella for 50% when you can publish it in KDP for 70%?

I guess it'd depend how much you could sell it for, but it doesn't sound like the author would set the price (am I wrong?) or that the benefits would be a lot more interesting than KU, so...

And, the other thing is, why do this at all? Can't folks already read ebooks on their smartphones or tablets? Why the need for such a platform?


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

latenightwriter said:


> For example, here's how we calculate earnings for a 3,025 word episode (30 Tokens) when the Tokens are purchased on the web in a 200 Tokens bundle versus an 1,100 Tokens bundle. In this example, we are assuming no taxes or fees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With these earning, it looks like they're setting the payout to be just about the same as the 70% for a $4.99 75k word book (around $3.40), which is higher than the $1.35 or so you'd get from a 300 page 75k word book on KU. But the big difference is you can have the same book for sale AND on KU. Right now, if your book is in KU and/or epubbed in any other way, you can't put it on Vella

If it was an added outlet, it would definitely be added value. If you have to put ALL your eggs in this unknown basket it doesn't even look reasonable. If you can churn something out quick to test it, I suppose at least you can republish later by removing it from Vella.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

US only.
Exclusive content.

I'm out. If I want to serialise my books, I can do that in any number of ways. Keeping it exclusive to one retailer is in no way a way I'm interested in. 

I can also set this up on Bookfunnel for free and keep all the royalties.


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## SaltObelisk (May 24, 2017)

Personally, I've decided to write a spinoff series of my main series just for Vella. It could be tragic, it could be awesome, who knows. I guess I'm a risk taker.  I hope it is "months" away, because I reckon it'll be a few weeks before I have anything substantial to upload.


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## A Fading Street (Sep 25, 2016)

ASG said:


> I'm not sure I understand what the appeal of this is supposed to be?
> 
> Why would anyone publish a short in Vella for 50% when you can publish it in KDP for 70%?
> 
> ...


Exclusivity of content could be one reason which is why content can't be or have been published elsewhere. Once someone is hooked and purchasing episodes, for which it seems there is no need to end the story so can go on forever, then Amazon can advertise their other products or sell space to third party advertisers. Amazon are not in this game to be creatives, they're in it to make money, so I can only assume, once they iron out the kinks, they see this as having potential to make them money. Whether it's worthwhile for writers would remain to be seen.


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## Lady Runa (May 27, 2012)

ASG said:


> I'm not sure I understand what the appeal of this is supposed to be?
> 
> Why would anyone publish a short in Vella for 50% when you can publish it in KDP for 70%?
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised but similar subscription-based platforms are sprouting all over the world although not yet in the Western market. It's basically a different reading culture, offering serialized stories that span for many hundreds of installments. And as I said before, once you're in it as a reader, following your favorite story can become seriously addictive, much more so than just reading a book. The question of remuneration is a totally different matter entirely, of course, and really depends on what Amazon has to offer. But I'd rather go with Amazon than with that Chinese platform we discussed a few posts back.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I write novels primarily, novellas occasionally, short stories rarely. I've never tried serialized short fiction before, but the idea of it intrigues me. If an idea strikes for something I can write in very small bites I might consider this. 

If history is any indication, what will happen with this product is that the first stories made available when this goes live will get a LOT of attention and the authors of those stories will likely do very well.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

On Wattpad a few years ago, some of the top books in the charts were very short chapters, some only a paragraph. I put their position on the charts down to them getting more likes recorded as readers waded through the chapters in quick time. I guess it suited the younger audience on there with a lower attention span. It was quite addictive, but they only worked because each chapter drove the story forward with cliffhangers or unanswered questions, which you don't always need in every chapter of a full length book unless it's a thriller type. I doubt that simply splitting up a short story into episodes would work.

Anyway, I experimented with a story with short chapters outside my genre for the high school age group, with some chapters only a series of images of cellphone messages using text speak, within an image of a cellphone, with some text messages including images sent and maybe a few paras extra of text.

It did reasonably well in the charts, but I abandoned the experiment as it wouldn't have fit my brand and it would have had a costly delivery charge as an e-book with the images. I also reckoned it would have been for an audience without many having the means to buy e-books. From that I was approached by an Asian company wanting to hire me for producing a number of similar stories, but only with images and few words, so there must be a market for that kind of short comicy type stuff to read on cellphones already.

However this Amazon venture is for word count, so images don't play into it. It would maybe suit Patterson style chapters at 600 words or so per episode, but I reckon it would be a whole knew skill set to learn to keep them reading. I also think it would take some experimenting on word count to episode ratio. The lower the word count for the chapter/episode, the less it would cost the reader to allocate their tokens to read on after the free ones, maybe gradually increasing the word count as they become hooked.

It's hard to know if will be worth the effort for authors as a new type of reading entertainment delivery, targeted at those with little spare time on their hands, or the new generation who read those short chapters on Wattpad, and who will eventually turn into young adults with an income to spend on a better quality of read than those free on Wattpad.

Be interesting to see if authors take it up, but the exclusivity is barrier for me just now, besides not residing in the US.



.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

A Fading Street said:


> Exclusivity of content could be one reason which is why content can't be or have been published elsewhere. Once someone is hooked and purchasing episodes, for which it seems there is no need to end the story so can go on forever, then Amazon can advertise their other products or sell space to third party advertisers. Amazon are not in this game to be creatives, they're in it to make money, so I can only assume, once they iron out the kinks, they see this as having potential to make them money. Whether it's worthwhile for writers would remain to be seen.


Oh I totally see the appeal for Amazon. I was more wondering about the authors 



Lady Runa said:


> You'd be surprised but similar subscription-based platforms are sprouting all over the world although not yet in the Western market. It's basically a different reading culture, offering serialized stories that span for many hundreds of installments. And as I said before, once you're in it as a reader, following your favorite story can become seriously addictive, much more so than just reading a book. The question of remuneration is a totally different matter entirely, of course, and really depends on what Amazon has to offer. But I'd rather go with Amazon than with that Chinese platform we discussed a few posts back.


Yeah, I was thinking about the webnovel model too.

I write a lot of short stories, so this type of format would work really well for me. And you're right about going with Amazon rather than those Chinese websites, I feel the same.

But, like I said in the webnovel thread, I'm already essentially doing this serialized format with KDP. And from what I can tell, Vella is a lot less interesting.

With KDP I can sell the chapters individually AND have them in KU. With Vella, you'd only have a KU-like interface, plus the first three installments are free (that's a lot!), plus the pay doesn't seem great... slightly better than KU, but you lose the possibility of full sales, so it kinda sucks in the end?

Unless I'm missing something.



GeneDoucette said:


> If history is any indication, what will happen with this product is that the first stories made available when this goes live will get a LOT of attention and the authors of those stories will likely do very well.


This is a fair point and might be the only real draw for authors, at least at this stage. It does make me consider it. Hmm.

Though this leads me to another thought... Would we be expected to make pro covers for all these releases? Just seems like it'd be a money pit, if we're to release a bunch of short stories like that, in a webnovel-like format... though those Chinese sites don't use individual covers... I suppose you could do one overall cover for the series and then just change the text over it to lower the costs (there are already a bunch of series that do this on Amazon).



Decon said:


> However this Amazon venture is for word count, so images don't play into it. It would maybe suit Patterson style chapters at 600 words or so per episode, but I reckon it would be a whole knew skill set to learn to keep them reading. I also think it would take some experimenting on word count to episode ratio. The lower the word count for the chapter/episode, the less it would cost the reader to allocate their tokens to read on after the free ones, maybe gradually increasing the word count as they become hooked.


I could totally do this, as I tend to write scenes that fall in the 300-1000 word range (averaging at 700-800). It'd be interesting to release those bite-sized chunks.

More food for thought.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

ASG said:


> Though this leads me to another thought... Would we be expected to make pro covers for all these releases? Just seems like it'd be a money pit, if we're to release a bunch of short stories like that, in a webnovel-like format... though those Chinese sites don't use individual covers... I suppose you could do one overall cover for the series and then just change the text over it to lower the costs (there are already a bunch of series that do this on Amazon).


According to the FAQ on Vella, they would want one square graphic for each story. (not each installment.) No text, just an image. It wouldn't be a huge cost.


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## nightwork (Aug 11, 2020)

ASG said:


> I'm not sure I understand what the appeal of this is supposed to be?
> 
> Why would anyone publish a short in Vella for 50% when you can publish it in KDP for 70%?
> 
> And, the other thing is, why do this at all? Can't folks already read ebooks on their smartphones or tablets? Why the need for such a platform?


It isn't for shorts. The people saying "shorts" don't know how to write for serial apps. You write long, very long, episode after episode, think General Hospital, years of soap opera that goes on forever if you can keep milking it that long. That's where the money is in a serial app where you're getting 12ish cents per person unlocking a chapter.

The appeal to the author is they can write, publish chapters, & abandon the whole project if it doesn't catch fire. You don't have to bother writing an entire book before you publish. You don't have to ever figure out the ending if you're not making enough money. You can just quit.

Best of all, if you're making bank, and you can't figure out the ending, you can just keep piling on more and more twists into the indefinite future... Being able to make money from an unfinished work can be very tempting.


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## latenightwriter (Nov 14, 2017)

Being alerted automatically when your fav author releases something is invaluable. That's the equivalent of having a mailing list that people sign up for by simply pressing a thumbs-up, and then they are alerted without you having to send anything. They don't have to open an e-mail or click anything. They just get an alert. That's huge if you ask me. 

You can release chapters instead of full-length works, which might sit well with certain types of writers, and the ranking/faves system could give authors a boost if they are doing well, which would mean a type of exposure you don't automatically get on Amazon with the way things are right now. 

I might give it a try. I love the serials idea and have toyed around with doing it for a while now on KU, but just never got around to doing it as serialized, non-romance fiction (in short format) never did very well (aside from a few authors).


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

A lot depends on how big Amazon gets behind this. Comparing it to KU isn't reasonable. As others have pointed out, this is a different group of readers. IF Amazon has a good reader interface, IF they promote it and hype the reader reactions, and IF authors can provide good serialized stories, it might work. If you think of 1,000 word installments and produce 100 of them... that's not even a particularly long book. If you have an episodic tale you want to spin that is a few hundred thousand words and it gets traction... you might get noticed and make money. It really remains to be see how it is executed both by Amazon and Writers. They must see potential as they aren't doing it so we can have another outlet. I'd guess they will (as someone noted) target younger readers who are not interested in the routine KU fare.


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## latenightwriter (Nov 14, 2017)

travelinged said:


> A lot depends on how big Amazon gets behind this. Comparing it to KU isn't reasonable. As others have pointed out, this is a different group of readers. IF Amazon has a good reader interface, IF they promote it and hype the reader reactions, and IF authors can provide good serialized stories, it might work. If you think of 1,000 word installments and produce 100 of them... that's not even a particularly long book. If you have an episodic tale you want to spin that is a few hundred thousand words and it gets traction... you might get noticed and make money. It really remains to be see how it is executed both by Amazon and Writers. They must see potential as they aren't doing it so we can have another outlet. I'd guess they will (as someone noted) target younger readers who are not interested in the routine KU fare.


Well, it's going to be on the Kindle app, right? So it's just a matter of clicking a different button to get to Vella. And really, if you wanted to take part in this, all you'd have to do is write in a way that makes readers want to click next to get to your next story. My chapters tend to be 1400-2000 words or so, so if I were to do 1400 words and stick to it, I wouldn't really have to do much different. Some peoples formats tend to be cliffhangerish anyways. 

I do agree obviously it's going to rely a lot on how Amazon goes about this, but for some formats and some authors, rolling out their story in this format might just be a no-brainer. Even some romance authors who I read who publish short romance, 10-15k, have chapters that end on "cliff-hangers," or at least things that make you want to read the next chapter immediately, because they know they're writing shorts and don't have time to mess around.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

travelinged said:


> A lot depends on how big Amazon gets behind this. Comparing it to KU isn't reasonable. As others have pointed out, this is a different group of readers. IF Amazon has a good reader interface, IF they promote it and hype the reader reactions, and IF authors can provide good serialized stories, it might work. If you think of 1,000 word installments and produce 100 of them... that's not even a particularly long book. If you have an episodic tale you want to spin that is a few hundred thousand words and it gets traction... you might get noticed and make money. It really remains to be see how it is executed both by Amazon and Writers. They must see potential as they aren't doing it so we can have another outlet. I'd guess they will (as someone noted) target younger readers who are not interested in the routine KU fare.


If it's a younger audience, that also means the material might need to be adjusted. Or, rather, YA/MG might work better there than more adult stuff hmm.

I'm really tempted to try it, but I don't know if I can handle writing TWO serials simultaneously LOL. That's my main issue, I suppose.

Though now I also have to worry about the YA/MG thing, which ain't really my thing...


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

There is no "Create Episode" button, just a "Save as draft" button and a "Publish and Start Episode 1" button, so has anyone figured out how to submit an episode? instructions say:
"To publish an episode:

Go to your Kindle Vella Library.
Select the story to which you want to add an episode.
Click *Create episode* or *Continue episode draft*."
Edit-- you have to hit the Publish and Start Episode 1 --though I dislike that "Publish" word in there.


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## Kathy Dee (Aug 27, 2016)

latenightwriter said:


> *Episode purchased with 200 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($1.99/200 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1493
> *Episode purchased with 1,100 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($9.99/1100 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1362


Suddenly, it all seems a lot less exciting!


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

latenightwriter said:

*Episode purchased with 200 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($1.99/200 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1493

30 tokens =3000 words ---- $1.99/200 @ 50% = $0.1493 ------1 token = 100 words @ 50% =;$0.00498 royalty.

If those figures quoted are from Amazon, then my math works out royalties as below for a comparison. But then I'm no math expert so don't take my figures as gospel. Could do with someone to confirm 100 words = $.0.00498 from their example.

WORDS & royalty @50%
5000 short story $0.25 
40,000 ---- $1.99 
50,000 ---- $2.49
60,000 ---- $2.99
70,000 ---- $3.49
80,000 ---- $3.98
90,000 ---- $4.48

Sale price [email protected]%
$2.99 ---------- $2.09
$3.99 ---------- $2.79
$4.99 ---------- $3.49
$5.99 ---------- $4.19
$6.99 ---------- $4.89

5000 short story @ 99c = $0.35


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Kindle Vella: Amazon's Newest Way to Reach Readers | Publishwide


What is Kindle-Vella and how will it impact self-published authors?




publishwide.com




Some interesting points here.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

I was rereading latenightwriter's post about the royalties, and this line stuck at me:



latenightwriter said:


> You can view the number of Tokens needed to unlock an episode on the episode setup page.


That phrasing seems weird. I'm likely misreading it, but it makes it sound to me like the author can decide how many tokens each episode is worth?

It would make for an interesting twist, at the very least


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## Bob Venrer (Feb 14, 2018)

From the Vella section on Amazon's website:
200 tokens = $1.99
525 tokens = $4.99
1100 tokens = $9.99
1700 tokens = $14.99

From the email I received:
140 tokens = $1.99
368 tokens = $4.99
770 tokens = $9.99

At 50% royalty that's anywhere from 0.71 cents per token (100 words) to 0.44 cents per token. At 100,000 words that $4.40-$7.10. Seeing as they have conflicting information in different places, they likely haven't set the base price of tokens yet.

The website specifically says their $0.1493 example is "assuming no taxes or fees".

Also, is Amazon ever going to put tokens on sale or give them away for free? If they do, our royalties decline because they're based on the price paid for the tokens.

@ASG That just means the page will show you how many tokens they're going to charge for your episode, which is based on its length. You don't get to set the number of tokens.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Decon said:


> latenightwriter said:
> 
> *Episode purchased with 200 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($1.99/200 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1493
> 
> ...


That doesn't take into account Amazon giving away the first three episodes or their unilateral ability to reduce token pricing again. They will be experimenting, be prepared to be a guinea pig (not necessarily a bad thing, just be prepared).


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

travelinged said:


> Kindle Vella: Amazon's Newest Way to Reach Readers | Publishwide
> 
> 
> What is Kindle-Vella and how will it impact self-published authors?
> ...


That was very informative, thank you!


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

Ken Rudisill said:


> From the Vella section on Amazon's website:
> 200 tokens = $1.99
> 525 tokens = $4.99
> 1100 tokens = $9.99
> ...


I just submitted four episodes. I kept the first three to as close to the minimum 600 words as I could because readers don't pay for them. My fourth episode is 1,252 words so if a token is worth a little less than a penny (according to the website), that means if somebody who bought 200 tokens buys my fourth episode, I get a little less than 12 cents divided by 2 = a little less than 6 cents paid to me. I have more episodes ready, but I'm going to wait and see how it all goes down. Just a note --the Previewer showed my episodes as not justified which looks kinda crappy. I don't know if there is a way to make the Previewer show it justified.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

I've decided to jump in too, though I'll have to wait since I'm not in the States. But I'll start writing episodes and keep them ready for when they open up wider


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

One more way to write stories and reach readers. Very cool.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Decon said:


> latenightwriter said:
> 
> *Episode purchased with 200 Tokens bundle:* 30 Tokens * ($1.99/200 Tokens - 0) * 50% = $0.1493
> 
> ...


Your math is correct, but the end revenue is skewed--the shorter the work the more off it is. This is due to the 3 free episodes. A 5000 short story would only make $0.159 not $0.25.
(5000 words - 1800 words) * $0.00498

The shorter your work the more the free episodes will skew the value lower as a percentage of word-count.

That said, I think the value in the venue is not for short stories, it's for hooky, short chaptered, never-ending stories with iconic characters.


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Guy Riessen said:


> That said, I think the value in the venue is not for short stories, it's for hooky, short chaptered, never-ending stories with iconic characters.


I get the feeling a lot are either missing that or not understanding it. 

This is about serialized writing, not short stories. The end of each installment needs to have the reader anxiously waiting for the next to see what happens.

Or maybe I'm wrong and everyone gets the premise is about installments and not "short stories."


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

ImaWriter said:


> I get the feeling a lot are either missing that or not understanding it.
> 
> This is about serialized writing, not short stories. The end of each installment needs to have the reader anxiously waiting for the next to see what happens.
> 
> Or maybe I'm wrong and everyone gets the premise is about installments and not "short stories."


Yeah it's kind of the opposite of short stories. Part of the blame is the name, though. I instantly thought novellas, which would still be cool that they'd try to figure out how to pave the way for people who write shorter.

If an author approached it anime/manga style, and organized their installments in story arcs, it could be a good way to test a series/idea and if it doesn't work financially release as books later, each arc getting it's own book.

I don't think what I'm working on now would work for that, but it might be a good way to test a fantasy idea.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Bite the Dusty said:


> If an author approached it anime/manga style, and organized their installments in story arcs, it could be a good way to test a series/idea and if it doesn't work financially release as books later, each arc getting it's own book.


Indeed. Look to shonen manga/anime for how to do it and do it well. You have a "season arc" and then you have the grand arc. Season arc can fully resolve a primary conflict, but the grand over-arc continues.


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## jaglionpress (Oct 5, 2016)

I'm intrigued by the Vella idea, because novels tend to come out of my brain in relatively small chunks (800-1200 words per writing session) and I don't like beating around the bush with a lot of description and detail. But...I'm halfway through the sequel to the most successful/least unsuccessful novel I've published to date, and am not sure I can draft two projects simultaneously.

The connection to East Asian webnovels/cell phone novels seems obvious, but I also wonder if this isn't an attempt to build a separate space for the high-churn, rapid-release authors/content syndicates to do their thing.

Many thanks to Decon for the math above. To estimate the money you would be losing from 3 free chapters of 600 words a piece, subtract $0.08964 from each of his Vella estimates. Not that hard with a calculator.

As far as the short story versus serial thing goes, I think some of this is people talking past each other. Vella is probably not going to be a suitable format for people writing short form literary fiction, but "patchups" that weld multiple short works about the same set of characters into a single larger work used to be a fairly common thing in genre fiction (mostly SF/F, but see also Agatha Christie's _Labours of Hercules_). If you are the ghost of Robert E. Howard, and have somehow spent the past 70+ years of your afterlife writing Conan the Barbarian short stories and novellas, your main problems* in the Vella format are going to be 1). making sure that you divide those stories into episodes of an appropriate length that end on a hook, and 2). blending the end of one story and the beginning of another into a single transitional episode that will hold the reader's interest.

I guess what I'm saying is that the people speaking of stories or shorts are perhaps thinking in terms of those two-hour reads you find in the Romance and Western lists. Some of those are serialized or semi-serialized, and I would expect the people who write in that format to be weighing up whether Vella would make them more or less money than their current approach.

*assuming you have solved the obvious issues with uploading to KDP from the afterlife, and convincing Amazon that you own the rights to Conan the Barbarian.


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

They are very prompt about getting the episodes approved to go "live", they only took a few hours for my four. FYI they give each episode its own ASIN.


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## latenightwriter (Nov 14, 2017)

MMSN said:


> They are very prompt about getting the episodes approved to go "live", they only took a few hours for my four. FYI they give each episode its own ASIN.


You can actually publish them already? I thought people were saying the service isn't fully live yet? I don't see it on the Kindle app, but I'm not using an iPhone. Is it ioS only?


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## MMSN (Feb 27, 2019)

It's Amazon.com and ioS. No, their dashboard says "Live" but they mean that when the store goes up, then the episodes will go up live with it.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

A lot of long running shonen are known for being constant filler so be careful what you use as inspo. In my, albeit limited, experience, many anime series have a mystery box problem. They keep readers on the hook by teasing a mystery box, but they tease for so long they can't live up to reader expectations/people lose interest.

IMO, semi serialized is the way to go, both for yourself and your readers. That is have an overaching "season" plot and an "episode" plot. Or a case of the week. It might not be a case and it probably won't be per episode at 6k words max. But it's much easier to write decent stuff and keep readers happy if you set up and pay off again and again, all while threading that season/series arc. My go to example here is The Good Wife but it's more in the case of the week side than the serialized side.

You can also do the classic solve a problem, introduce a new complication in the last scene. The Good Place did this really well though it can sometimes feel like taking to a sophomore philosophy major for too long. Full Metal Alchemist too, the anime at least.

You can go full on serialized plot twist every episode but that is really hard to do well long term. I can't imagine how hard it would be to keep writing plot twists every 6k words for 20 or 30 or 100 episodes.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I agree that it is not really for individual short stories unless you want to give them away. There is a good reason to do that with short stories, and that would because they don't really sell on Amazon at 99c (which is way to expensive for what they are) and all they do is to dilute your sales brand with what you have to offer on Amazon if you are mixing them with longer works . But free on this medium could draw in new readers to switch over to Amazon for full-length books and to keep your full-length book publishing brand clean on the sales page. Thinking that, it could work with a compilation of individual short stories with conclusions, published a series, all based around the say the same character that you make interesting enough for the reader to want to follow further episodes in different circumstances they face.

I also think that if you don't have a full season of episodes to upload as the finished article and with an eventual ending, then readers will be disappointed they can't make it to the end as a single interest, they will simply move onto something else..

Worse, if authors use it like Wattpad to write of the hoof with first drafts uploaded to keep it going, then readers will be equally disappointed with quality and timing of uploads if there are long gaps between publication. .

And finally, it could damage your brand if as a result of not having a full season to upload with an ending, then say the author abandons writing the series to a conclusion the reader will be really peeved.

I don't think it is a question of having regular plot twists, though of course they would be required, but thriller type episode/chapter endings/cliffhangers/unanswered questions, for them to want to follow the story and to turn the page, or in this case, feed in more tokens.

It's no coincidence that they call them episodes and not chapters. For crafting, authors need look no further than TV novellas/soaps which have a season ending with a plot twist, or Netflix type series films which also have endings. I can't see it being hard to craft if you already do this with chapters for your genre. I know here in Brazil I'm watching a series called Genesis, and it drives me crazy they only broadcast it 5 days of the week because of how they leave the endings of each episode. Just waiting 2 days over the weekend to get to the next episode drives me crazy. I don't have Netflix, but on a recent visit to family I ended up binge watching episodes of the life of Bolivar. to a conclusion, with little sleep, simply because of the way each episode ended.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Decon said:


> I agree that it is not really for individual short stories unless you want to give them away. There is a good reason to do that with short stories, and that would because they don't really sell on Amazon at 99c (which is way to expensive for what they are) and all they do is to dilute your sales brand with what you have to offer on Amazon if you are mixing them with longer works . But free on this medium could draw in new readers to switch over to Amazon for full-length books and to keep your full-length book publishing brand clean on the sales page. Thinking that, it could work with a compilation of individual short stories with conclusions, published a series, all based around the say the same character that you make interesting enough for the reader to want to follow further episodes in different circumstances they face.
> 
> I also think that if you don't have a full season of episodes to upload as the finished article and with an eventual ending, then readers will be disappointed they can't make it to the end as a single interest, they will simply move onto something else..
> 
> ...


Yep, exactly. That's what I'm already doing with my KU series of novellas--it's structured like a TV show.

That's what I'll do with my Vella series too. And to cut down on the amount of work required, I'm going to set it in the same universe, several centuries in the past. This way, I can use the world-building I've already done. Plus the two series will feed upon each other and I can hopefully grow my readers by sending them from one to the other...

Cool thing about it is that it won't be that big of a time investment. I'm not sure what their requirements are in term of frequency of release (if any) but I could do six episodes a month and it'd only take me two days to write them. So totally doable.

But yeah, you need unanswered questions. Though you can't drag them on forever either. The trick to it is to ask new (bigger) questions each time you answer one.

In my current series, solving a mystery often leads to discovering two or three new ones LOL.

TV shows are a great place to learn how to do stuff like that, and I've been avidly watching them for 30+ years


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

ASG said:


> Yep, exactly. That's what I'm already doing with my KU series of novellas--it's structured like a TV show.
> 
> That's what I'll do with my Vella series too. And to cut down on the amount of work required, I'm going to set it in the same universe, several centuries in the past. This way, I can use the world-building I've already done. Plus the two series will feed upon each other and I can hopefully grow my readers by sending them from one to the other...
> 
> ...


A new timeline in the same universe sounds clever to me. Saves lots of work. Plus, these can be a lot shorter than your novellas. Just guessing but I think higher frequency will probably get you these readers faster than trying for 5k installments placed further apart. I'd bet they will like tasty bite-sized story chunks. Very much the format of old melodramas. As The World Explodes!


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

travelinged said:


> A new timeline in the same universe sounds clever to me. Saves lots of work. Plus, these can be a lot shorter than your novellas. Just guessing but I think higher frequency will probably get you these readers faster than trying for 5k installments placed further apart. I'd bet they will like tasty bite-sized story chunks. Very much the format of old melodramas. As The World Explodes!


Yeah exactly LOL. The novellas (which are in the 15-20k range) take me a week to write and have about 20 chapters each.

For Vella, it's like I'd be releasing the chapters individually. They're about 600-1000 words each, so that's why I can easily do 6 a month. Possibly more, we'll see... will depend what the requirements are, or rather what type of frequency works best with the readers (for the moment I'm thinking weekly releases, with 2 episodes at once every other week, or something like that).

Some experimenting will be required, I'm sure


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## Simply_Me (Mar 31, 2016)

Did you guys notice that they already have a solution for those who breaks the rules? I'm not planning doing so, it's just interesting. Unlike KU, it's like they know what they are doing this time. It's listed in Episode status.




__





Kindle Vella - Publish an Episode







kdp.amazon.com


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

Simply_Me said:


> Did you guys notice that they already have a solution for those who breaks the rules? I'm not planning doing so, it's just interesting. Unlike KU, it's like they know what they are doing this time. It's listed in Episode status.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see anything new there. It's the same as for KDP in general.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

travelinged said:


> A lot depends on how big Amazon gets behind this. Comparing it to KU isn't reasonable. As others have pointed out, this is a different group of readers. IF Amazon has a good reader interface, IF they promote it and hype the reader reactions, and IF authors can provide good serialized stories, it might work. If you think of 1,000 word installments and produce 100 of them... that's not even a particularly long book. If you have an episodic tale you want to spin that is a few hundred thousand words and it gets traction... you might get noticed and make money. It really remains to be see how it is executed both by Amazon and Writers. They must see potential as they aren't doing it so we can have another outlet. I'd guess they will (as someone noted) target younger readers who are not interested in the routine KU fare.


I think the draw to readers might be the price. It "looks" cheaper than KU. As you said, it all depends on Amazon's promotion.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

I'm sure they know what people will fall for, or they wouldn't do it, but I can't believe the generations that grew up on free games with in-app purchases or the adults that paid the bill would fall for this. It will end up costing you a whole lot more than KU to read less.

This might be cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if the prices they're showing in their promo material, the stuff that's subject to change, is inflated to get writers excited about payday and providing content for their new platform and then the real token prices will end up being cheap cheap cheap. Bait and switch.

Either way I feel wary the more I think about it.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Bite the Dusty said:


> I'm sure they know what people will fall for, or they wouldn't do it, but I can't believe the generations that grew up on free games with in-app purchases or the adults that paid the bill would fall for this. It will end up costing you a whole lot more than KU to read less.
> 
> This might be cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if the prices they're showing in their promo material, the stuff that's subject to change, is inflated to get writers excited about payday and providing content for their new platform and then the real token prices will end up being cheap cheap cheap. Bait and switch.
> 
> Either way I feel wary the more I think about it.


It's possible. Honestly, anything is with Amazon LOL.

But hey, if they do something sneaky like that, authors can always pull the plug. It wouldn't be that hard to convert the project into a novel, or a series of novels 

You just have to keep that in mind while writing.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

ASG said:


> It's possible. Honestly, anything is with Amazon LOL.
> 
> But hey, if they do something sneaky like that, authors can always pull the plug. It wouldn't be that hard to convert the project into a novel, or a series of novels
> 
> You just have to keep that in mind while writing.


True.

And authors are always talking about how people prefer long books, so it's possible it could work out for them even if Vella doesn't.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

Interesting. I'm cautiously optimistic. It sounds like it could possibly be a new frontier to reach a wider audience range, but it could also implode and just be another project Amazon sweeps under the rug. Any mention of the release date of this platform and when you can dabbling with it? All I'm finding is that it'll be released "in the coming months."


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

I'm sure they're just waiting on content (for the most part). This is lowering the barrier of entry, people can start without a finished book, but Amazon still need enough there to interest readers at launch.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Need More Coffee said:


> Interesting. I'm cautiously optimistic. It sounds like it could possibly be a new frontier to reach a wider audience range, but it could also implode and just be another project Amazon sweeps under the rug. Any mention of the release date of this platform and when you can dabbling with it? All I'm finding is that it'll be released "in the coming months."


No launch date that I've seen so far. That said authors can already upload episodes, and are even encouraged to do so 

I did mail them to ask... not for a date, I knew they wouldn't answer that, but if they had a mailing list or something to be informed when it would launch (especially since I'm not in the States, so I'll have to wait longer) and they just directed me toward the KDP Community forum, saying they'd post updates on there.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Kindle Worlds flopped, so Vella is no sure thing. 

I believe this is Amazon going after the smartphone market. They think phone users will be the primary readers of Vella. If that's the case I wonder what kind of fiction will work best for that market?

My concern is Vella is relying on microtransactions, which are not an easy sell. Very interesting though!


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I read the article and I'm not sure it's a good idea. Amazon won't let us link to our websites or other books, so isn't it just providing content for Amazon? How many readers would Google my name if they liked my story and find my other books? That seems to be the only way it would benefit my "brand." Marti's Books


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

Marti talbott said:


> I read the article and I'm not sure it's a good idea. Amazon won't let us link to our websites or other books, so isn't it just providing content for Amazon? How many readers would Google my name if they liked my story and find my other books? That seems to be the only way it would benefit my "brand." Marti's Books


Is there really no way to even advertise your own work? What incentive is there then? That just seems downright silly, especially since many of those additional purchases would lead back through a different branch of Amazon anyways.



ASG said:


> No launch date that I've seen so far. That said authors can already upload episodes, and are even encouraged to do so
> 
> I did mail them to ask... not for a date, I knew they wouldn't answer that, but if they had a mailing list or something to be informed when it would launch (especially since I'm not in the States, so I'll have to wait longer) and they just directed me toward the KDP Community forum, saying they'd post updates on there.


Have you uploaded any content yet? I'm not sure if there's any benefit to jumping on that train if there's no way to make a profit yet, or build an audience.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Need More Coffee said:


> Have you uploaded any content yet? I'm not sure if there's any benefit to jumping on that train if there's no way to make a profit yet, or build an audience.


I know some here have.

Me, I just created a story page for now. Though I did start writing (first three episodes completed tonight) but won't upload them yet. Not sure that I can. Vella support told me that I could, that I just wouldn't be able to hit 'publish' (because I'm in France). Except before you get to the episodes you need to hit 'publish' on the series itself, and I suspect that won't work. I'll probably try at some point, but eh, no rush at this point 

As for the profit thing... I look at it this way: I'm writing it specifically for Vella and it will only be two days of work in a month to write 6 chapters.

If it doesn't work out, for whatever reason, I'll pull the episodes and retool them as a novel and publish it in KDP.

Either way, no loss. 

Plus, since I'm setting this in the same universe as another series I'm writing, it's actually going to add to my world building


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

Marti talbott said:


> I read the article and I'm not sure it's a good idea. Amazon won't let us link to our websites or other books, so isn't it just providing content for Amazon? How many readers would Google my name if they liked my story and find my other books? That seems to be the only way it would benefit my "brand." Marti's Books


For what it's worth, if I read something I like, I'll always seek out an author's other books. I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. A good story, well written, no matter how long, is some of the best marketing there is, IMO. 

Having said that, will the readers who are into serials be interested in reading a full length novel? I'm guessing the only way to know that is with testing. And I would do that with any form of marketing, knowing there might be a learning curve and potential losses going in.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

ImaWriter said:


> For what it's worth, if I read something I like, I'll always seek out an author's other books. I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. A good story, well written, no matter how long, is some of the best marketing there is, IMO.
> 
> Having said that, will the readers who are into serials be interested in reading a full length novel? I'm guessing the only way to know that is with testing. And I would do that with any form of marketing, knowing there might be a learning curve and potential losses going in.


Yes, I was thinking about that. Some might look to see what else the author has written, but I think most would just move on to the next series. A new writer might really benefit from the feedback. Those of us old-timers who've suffered though bad reviews, can see how "silly" comments could tank a chapter and thus a whole book. However, I don't know if readers will be able to see the critiques. 

I looked at Wattpad this morning and I think they said they don't display ads. So they make their money solely off of the author's work. We know Amazon won't do that. They'll plaster all kinds of ads in every space they can. I wonder if AMS ads will appear. In that case, we could buy ads that promote our other books and hope they are displayed on Vella. Just a thought. At any rate, we're still on the hook for advertisements and promotions. Marti's Books.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Marti talbott said:


> I read the article and I'm not sure it's a good idea. Amazon won't let us link to our websites or other books, so isn't it just providing content for Amazon? How many readers would Google my name if they liked my story and find my other books? That seems to be the only way it would benefit my "brand." Marti's Books


I had assumed we'd be able to add links to our websites and social media accounts in the bio page, at the very least. So I asked Vella support if this would be the case... and the answer was as frustrating as they can sometimes be:

"We don't have any information to share about future plans about linking Author information for Kindle Vella content. We'll be sure to pass your suggestion along."

Except it was a question, not a suggestion LOL. But oh well.

So I guess it's still up in the air.



Marti talbott said:


> I looked at Wattpad this morning and I think they said they don't display ads. So they make their money solely off of the author's work. We know Amazon won't do that. They'll plaster all kinds of ads in every space they can. I wonder if AMS ads will appear. In that case, we could buy ads that promote our other books and hope they are displayed on Vella. Just a thought. At any rate, we're still on the hook for advertisements and promotions. Marti's Books.


Interesting thought. That could be one way to do it.

Don't say it too loudly though, or Amazon might think OH YEAH! Why hadn't we thought of that? Let's see... want to post links on your Author Central? Can't anymore! Gotta buy ads now! 

Boy oh boy...


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## AgnesWebb (Jan 13, 2013)

Will Write for Gruel said:


> Kindle Worlds flopped, so Vella is no sure thing.


OMG I forgot about Kindle Worlds!!! 
This feels more scaleable though.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

This really could be Amazon's Quibi. If it weren't for the webnovel thread the other day I might've been wondering who's asking for this? I'm still kind of wondering because this appeals to me as a writer more than as a reader.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Bite the Dusty said:


> This really could be Amazon's Quibi. If it weren't for the webnovel thread the other day I might've been wondering who's asking for this? I'm still kind of wondering because this appeals to me as a writer more than as a reader.


Same here. I've looked at some of those Chinese platforms in the past, and it really didn't appeal to me.

Granted, it was in great part because the writing (or possibly translating) often sucked, and in part because it often seemed to have a heavy focus on romance, which ain't my thing 

That said, even with stellar writing and in a genre I love, I don't think I'd get into something like this. Though to be fair, I might have when I was younger. I think now it has more to do with time commitment and not wanting to get dragged into something that could potentially have no end--or come to an abrupt one 

It might work better with younger readers--which this seems more geared toward anyway.

I had to take that into account and made my MC a teenager LOL.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

ASG said:


> Same here. I've looked at some of those Chinese platforms in the past, and it really didn't appeal to me.
> 
> Granted, it was in great part because the writing (or possibly translating) often sucked, and in part because it often seemed to have a heavy focus on romance, which ain't my thing
> 
> ...


I guess it's time to admit I'm not "younger" anymore and I might not know what they like lol.

It's smart you're thinking ahead with your MC, and considering the audience. I don't know what to think about the demos. Every time there's a family get together all the older women are glued to their phones like teenagers, and I love a few genres where series just go on and on and on, so I suppose it's possible that stories aimed at them might take off too.

I guess time will tell.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Bite the Dusty said:


> I guess it's time to admit I'm not "younger" anymore and I might not know what they like lol.
> 
> It's smart you're thinking ahead with your MC, and considering the audience. I don't know what to think about the demos. Every time there's a family get together all the older women are glued to their phones like teenagers, and I love a few genres where series just go on and on and on, so I suppose it's possible that stories aimed at them might take off too.
> 
> I guess time will tell.


Well, to be fair, I'm trying to cover all grounds LOL. Though my MC is a teenager, it's not going to be YA. It's more along the lines of Ender's Game, I guess--haven't read it, but I hear it's an adult novel with a young protagonist.

Heck, if anything, this is probably going to be darker than my main series LOL. I want it to be more like Game of Thrones 

I hear a lot of teenagers enjoyed GOT, though, so...

Oh and hey, I haven't been young in a long time myself, so no worries!


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Bite the Dusty said:


> This really could be Amazon's Quibi. If it weren't for the webnovel thread the other day I might've been wondering who's asking for this? I'm still kind of wondering because this appeals to me as a writer more than as a reader.


Amazon is not throwing $1B+ at Vella, so it's not the craziness that was Quibi. Unless they are paying a few big name authors to write a few serials, I bet they can launch Vella for under $1M. 

I agree with your sentiment that it appeals more to me as a writer than reader, yet there are some serial sites on the web that do well. There are people who like serials.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

Will Write for Gruel said:


> Amazon is not throwing $1B+ at Vella, so it's not the craziness that was Quibi. Unless they are paying a few big name authors to write a few serials, I bet they can launch Vella for under $1M.
> 
> I agree with your sentiment that it appeals more to me as a writer than reader, yet there are some serial sites on the web that do well. There are people who like serials.


I get what you're saying. I meant more that they think there's an audience to sustain this, and it might not be there or it may already be served by the serial sites you brought up. When reading the press for Quibi, I kept thinking... but, YouTube already exists. I know it's not all high-quality content, but people who just want to watch filler to pass the time can watch a video about literally any odd thing.

And you're right, this is worse for content creators than Quibi because at least they got paid before it flopped. We'd be doing it for free/exposure/FOMO reasons.

At the same time, I get why people are excited. New stuff = new opportunity (maybe). And these days opportunity, even just the fantasy of it, is attractive. Personally, I just like the idea of structuring a series like a TV show with an overarching story framing episodic stories.

It's odd, actually, because I like a lot of genres/series that run on fluff and "filler" but I have a hard time writing it even though I enjoy every extra page as a reader.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

Random question: Watched the advertisement for Vella, the presentation of writing, building a series, and being rated seems considerably more casual than I expected. Is this only being advertised as a platform for aspiring/established writers, or will we possibly have to compete with this as the new outlet for fan-fiction?

No disrespect meant to fan-fiction writers, I know fan-fiction can be a gateway to professional writing.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Need More Coffee said:


> Random question: Watched the advertisement for Vella, the presentation of writing, building a series, and being rated seems considerably more casual than I expected. Is this only being advertised as a platform for aspiring/established writers, or will we possibly have to compete with this as the new outlet for fan-fiction?
> 
> No disrespect meant to fan-fiction writers, I know fan-fiction can be a gateway to professional writing.


Funny you should ask that. I was looking at the Vella topic on the KDP Community forum and the first thread I found was this one:





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KDP Community







www.kdpcommunity.com





The OP there asks some really interesting and important questions that are similar to what you're asking here.

Regarding fanfiction, the thing is that it wouldn't be _legal_ for them to try and monetize it, so I doubt Amazon would allow it. 

My real concern are all the would-be writers who think it's easy to write and who will start something on Vella but never be able to complete it.

But, as someone said in that thread, it might be more of an issue in the beginning. Eventually, readers will weed out those who stay the course from those who fail to deliver.

It will be a rocky start, though, I suspect.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I wish I could read a crystal ball to know the outcome. I'll be surprised if it takes off. More than anything, I believe this because there is no vetting and will attract too many who haven't as yet learned their craft that currently post on Wattpad. If they had a stipulation that the only series allowed for upload, would be those with a complete season of episodes that end the main season's plot, then it might work. As a paying reader, I would expect that certainty. If that was the case, I would think it would be in with a chance. Still, who knows? I admire those who are diving in to this new shiny object and good luck to them. As some of the first to take this up, there is a chance they will make money, but it's not for me.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

ASG said:


> Funny you should ask that. I was looking at the Vella topic on the KDP Community forum and the first thread I found was this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link ASG! I share the concern that many of the KDP authors (and authors on kboard) have added. 

I worry particularly, that the nonexistent entry barrier could result in an influx of quantity over quality, which would subsequently give Vella a negative public reputation and scare away paying readers. We still have an unknown number of months until this is released, hopefully these potential issues are addressed by Amazon beforehand. As it stands, I may test the waters, but I'm not enough of a gambler to dive right in.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Need More Coffee said:


> Thanks for the link ASG! I share the concern that many of the KDP authors (and authors on kboard) have added.
> 
> I worry particularly, that the nonexistent entry barrier could result in an influx of quantity over quality, which would subsequently give Vella a negative public reputation and scare away paying readers. We still have an unknown number of months until this is released, hopefully these potential issues are addressed by Amazon beforehand. As it stands, I may test the waters, but I'm not enough of a gambler to dive right in.


At least Amazon won't be able to claim that they weren't warned LOL.

Hopefully they'll take all of that stuff into account and come up with a better system. It's not even like it'd be that difficult. There are some pretty solid suggestions in that thread.


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## cest la vie (Feb 4, 2021)

Need More Coffee said:


> I worry particularly, that the nonexistent entry barrier could result in an influx of quantity over quality, which would subsequently give Vella a negative public reputation and scare away paying readers.


I'm sure people thought and said the same thing about KDP in the beginning.


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## Need More Coffee (Apr 17, 2021)

cest la vie said:


> I'm sure people thought and said the same thing about KDP in the beginning.


I don't disagree with you. I bet there were plenty of old-school authors who thought that KDP would be the downfall of the system. If Vella winds up being an amazing platform and all of our books become super successful because of it, I'll be delighted!

If nothing else, maybe it will bring more legitimacy to self-publishing as a route to becoming a professional author.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

You beat me to it. I don't disagree about the potential poor quality but the same is true of KDP. Whether or not indie books are high quality, or trad quality, on average, at best, and at worst, is still highly debated, albeit not as highly debated as it was a few years ago.

I'm sure there will be great Vella serials and terrible Vella serials, just as there are great KDP books and terrible KDP books. Now, where the average will land... I have no idea there.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Crystal_ said:


> You beat me to it. I don't disagree about the potential poor quality but the same is true of KDP. Whether or not indie books are high quality, or trad quality, on average, at best, and at worst, is still highly debated, albeit not as highly debated as it was a few years ago.
> 
> I'm sure there will be great Vella serials and terrible Vella serials, just as there are great KDP books and terrible KDP books. Now, where the average will land... I have no idea there.


Yeah, it's really more about the fact that it's self-published rather than the medium itself. Self-published means you also have to self-control the quality and too many folks just skip that part altogether, because it's just so quick and easy to skip it, quality be damned! Heh.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

NO thanks!


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## AgnesWebb (Jan 13, 2013)

Anyone have predictions for when it will actually launch?


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Someone suggested June in the KDP Community forum, as that's apparently when they will be launching some other program (I forget what). They argued it would make sense to launch both at the same time.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

My impression is that Vella really isn't intended for the average indie author who publishes on KDP. It's a lure for the episodic writer who already publishes in that format on a platform like Wattpad and perhaps isn't getting paid for their work. Now they can do what they've been doing all along, but get a check for it. And if they have a following on another platform that they can bring with them, all the better. (In fact, I believe that's the point.)

So if you're already publishing on KDP, you're probably the undercard - not the main bout.


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## travelinged (Apr 6, 2014)

KevinH said:


> My impression is that Vella really isn't intended for the average indie author who publishes on KDP. It's a lure for the episodic writer who already publishes in that format on a platform like Wattpad and perhaps isn't getting paid for their work. Now they can do what they've been doing all along, but get a check for it. And if they have a following on another platform that they can bring with them, all the better. (In fact, I believe that's the point.)
> 
> So if you're already publishing on KDP, you're probably the undercard - not the main bout.


We could've been contenders!!!!


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## D.J. Gelner (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm going to give it a go--the very first book I wrote is about 150,000 words and has been sitting in a drawer for 10 years.

It's very much in the "TV season" format--a long arc of 15 or so chapters each season, followed by an epilogue.

Can't do any worse than it's doing now collecting dust! Haha.

I think the other part of this is any time there's a new distribution channel, there's an opportunity to "shuffle the deck" a bit and to get noticed for those of us who haven't caught on in "mainstream" indie publishing.

If it doesn't work, I can always republish each "season" as its own novel.

Will keep you all posted with my experience and thoughts as this thing rolls out!


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

KevinH said:


> My impression is that Vella really isn't intended for the average indie author who publishes on KDP. It's a lure for the episodic writer who already publishes in that format on a platform like Wattpad and perhaps isn't getting paid for their work. Now they can do what they've been doing all along, but get a check for it. And if they have a following on another platform that they can bring with them, all the better. (In fact, I believe that's the point.)
> 
> So if you're already publishing on KDP, you're probably the undercard - not the main bout.


This makes sense to me. Why let a segment of the market exist outside the Amazon ecosystem, especially a young segment? I'm sure they are hoping popular Wattpad writers jump ship and bring their fans with them, but I also don't think that means authors who are used to satisfying paying customers are SOL, because Vella is paid and Wattpad mostly isn't.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

I think the format is conducive to allowing good stories to do well. Sure you can put the 600 word minimum in your first three. But they had better be good enough to warrant paying for the fourth. Otherwise you're wasting your time. 
I included 3 5000 word episodes from a post-apocalyptic sci fi project I abandoned years ago (other writing priorities). It had already been edited. So all I had to do is trim it down and touch it up. I could have broken it down into smaller pieces. But it would have taken away from the experience. Given that I stand to make $8-$12 per 100k words, why would I do anything other than put out something exciting that engages a reader to want more?
No one suffers. Good stories are rewarded. Bad stories are not. But no one loses the ability to publish. Unlike KU 1, it's not a page read system people can game. You are free to put out something less than your best. But you won't make money. 600 words of nothing is not going get them coming back.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> I think the format is conducive to allowing good stories to do well. Sure you can put the 600 word minimum in your first three. But they had better be good enough to warrant paying for the fourth. Otherwise you're wasting your time.
> I included 3 5000 word episodes from a post-apocalyptic sci fi project I abandoned years ago (other writing priorities). It had already been edited. So all I had to do is trim it down and touch it up. I could have broken it down into smaller pieces. But it would have taken away from the experience. Given that I stand to make $8-$12 per 100k words, why would I do anything other than put out something exciting that engages a reader to want more?
> No one suffers. Good stories are rewarded. Bad stories are not. But no one loses the ability to publish. Unlike KU 1, it's not a page read system people can game. You are free to put out something less than your best. But you won't make money. 600 words of nothing is not going get them coming back.


Yeah, I jumped into the pool yesterday, with a new project. I hope to have 10 installments done before this thing goes live. Right now, I'm planning to stick to smaller entries of 700-1000 words per episode. The first three will be the equivalent of a book's prologue.

I found the preview function interesting, because it showed the story on a mockup of a cellphone screen. That really drives home how these stories are meant to be consumed, which is why I'm leaning into smaller bites.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

GeneDoucette said:


> Yeah, I jumped into the pool yesterday, with a new project. I hope to have 10 installments done before this thing goes live. Right now, I'm planning to stick to smaller entries of 700-1000 words per episode. The first three will be the equivalent of a book's prologue.
> 
> I found the preview function interesting, because it showed the story on a mockup of a cellphone screen. That really drives home how these stories are meant to be consumed, which is why I'm leaning into smaller bites.


If you can hook them in 1000 words (3000 actually, I suppose) enough to be willing pay, no reason not to. I haven't written anything under 100k words in years. I would need to change the way I develop characters, plots, and conduct word building, etc. entirely, to write anything so short. 
I still have the final book in the Sorcerer's Song series due to my editor by the end of June. Two more due for Audible after that. 12 conventions to attend this year. And finishing the next manuscript I'm pitching Tor (luckily I have 90k words written. Only 90k words to go). If I didn't already have 50k edited words that coincidentally I'd written in 2 25k word episodes, I wouldn't be able to participate. All I had to do was break them into 4-5k word segments where the story breaks naturally (and a bit of editing here and there). I even had a cover where the title shows perfectly along with the words "season one".


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

D.J. Gelner said:


> I'm going to give it a go--the very first book I wrote is about 150,000 words and has been sitting in a drawer for 10 years.
> 
> It's very much in the "TV season" format--a long arc of 15 or so chapters each season, followed by an epilogue.
> 
> ...


It would be nice to have a book already written to submit. My problem is that to sacrifice a book to this "maybe" endeavor, means not publishing a new book for my fans for at least six months. That's a deal breaker for me. Marti's Books


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## pugalug (Jan 4, 2021)

I have to say this is interesting, but I'm not sure about audience. I mean, I assume Amazon did consumer research and found demand but I'm not sure who those customers would be.

I'm in the text-game/interactive space, and TONS of games of text games/interactive fiction take the episodic/tokens approach with varying degrees of success, but they provide player agency/decision-making along with at least minimal art assets. I think weekly cliffhangers are more addictive when your choices drive the story and you want to see the results of your decisions the following week. Plus you can see cute avatars of your story crush or whatever. You might even be able to see your character's outfits and stuff. So I can see how those make money (they do). And yes it skews teens/early 20s.

But would these customers read a conventional episodic story every week for like months without the hooks of visuals or choices/gameplay/collecting stuff in game? Heck, I don't know, but there's just so much other competing content out there with more bells and whistles. Heck, you can play many text games totally for free if you avoid "premium-type choices/options."

At least regular novels have depth/meatiness working for them. This...I'm not sure?


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

pugalug said:


> I have to say this is interesting, but I'm not sure about audience. I mean, I assume Amazon did consumer research and found demand but I'm not sure who those customers would be.
> 
> I'm in the text-game/interactive space, and TONS of games of text games/interactive fiction take the episodic/tokens approach with varying degrees of success, but they provide player agency/decision-making along with at least minimal art assets. I think weekly cliffhangers are more addictive when your choices drive the story and you want to see the results of your decisions the following week. Plus you can see cute avatars of your story crush or whatever. You might even be able to see your character's outfits and stuff. So I can see how those make money (they do). And yes it skews teens/early 20s.
> 
> ...


I'm no expert in short episodic fiction. I'm a novelist, so take this with a grain of salt. But yes. Wattpad already does it. I think for a large number of readers it will fit in nicely with their lifestyle. Passing time on their phone, reading short fiction is something I can imagine younger people enjoying. And with the way they've set it up, the first three episodes are free. So if someone uploads an unedited piece of crap trying to make a quick buck, they'll be outed in a hurry. It forces a writer to put their best foot forward thereby rewarding good writing and storytelling. And the royalties based on a 100k word novel (even if split into smaller pieces) are better than anything I've seen before.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

pugalug said:


> I have to say this is interesting, but I'm not sure about audience. I mean, I assume Amazon did consumer research and found demand but I'm not sure who those customers would be.
> 
> I'm in the text-game/interactive space, and TONS of games of text games/interactive fiction take the episodic/tokens approach with varying degrees of success, but they provide player agency/decision-making along with at least minimal art assets. I think weekly cliffhangers are more addictive when your choices drive the story and you want to see the results of your decisions the following week. Plus you can see cute avatars of your story crush or whatever. You might even be able to see your character's outfits and stuff. So I can see how those make money (they do). And yes it skews teens/early 20s.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried. There's clearly an audience, if you consider the popularity of Wattpad and all those Chinese webnovel sites. That's the audience Amazon is aiming for, I'm sure.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

pugalug said:


> I have to say this is interesting, but I'm not sure about audience. I mean, I assume Amazon did consumer research and found demand but I'm not sure who those customers would be.


It's my guess that Amazon is aiming for the milliions of young readers who read on their iPhones, a demographic that Amazon doesn't have. Amazon is using this new program attract them, and they're doing it on the cheap with your work.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

A past poster said:


> It's my guess that Amazon is aiming for the milliions of young readers who read on their iPhones, a demographic that Amazon doesn't have. Amazon is using this new program attract them, and they're doing it on the cheap with your work.


If you need content for a new product, you go out and get content providers. I'm not sure I understand your evident objection.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

GeneDoucette said:


> If you need content for a new product, you go out and get content providers. I'm not sure I understand your evident objection.


It isn't that I object to Amazon getting content providers, it's how the company behaves afterwards. After KDP was a huge success at getting people to join Prime, the KDP terms to authors changed. More often than not, history repeats. It's a safe bet that the terms being offered to writers now aren't the same terms writers will be getting if the project is a success. Time is a precious resource. Is it worth spending on this?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

A past poster said:


> It isn't that I object to Amazon getting content providers, it's how the company behaves afterwards. After KDP was a huge success at getting people to join Prime, the KDP terms to authors changed. More often than not, history repeats. It's a safe bet that the terms being offered to writers now aren't the same terms writers will be getting if the project is a success. Time is a precious resource. Is it worth spending on this?


Okay, I understand.

From my perspective, it's time I have. I'm 60% of the way through a novel that doesn't have to be finished until the beginning of September, I have a trad pub book launching in about 4 weeks, I have a standalone novel idea that's backburnered until I can finish the novel before September, and I'm on hold with a screenplay. I can absolutely afford to spend an hour here or there penning another 700 word episode in a story without a planned ending, since that's already how I write.


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

A past poster said:


> It isn't that I object to Amazon getting content providers, it's how the company behaves afterwards. After KDP was a huge success at getting people to join Prime, the KDP terms to authors changed. More often than not, history repeats. It's a safe bet that the terms being offered to writers now aren't the same terms writers will be getting if the project is a success. Time is a precious resource. Is it worth spending on this?


I did my math. I can do 6 episodes a month and it'd only take me two days of work. Two days a month ain't much. I can definitely spare that.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

ASG said:


> I did my math. I can do 6 episodes a month and it'd only take me two days of work. Two days a month ain't much. I can definitely spare that.


Man, I wish I could write that fast. What kind of release schedule are you thinking with 6 episodes/month?


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## ASG (Dec 5, 2020)

Bite the Dusty said:


> Man, I wish I could write that fast. What kind of release schedule are you thinking with 6 episodes/month?


I first thought of releasing one every 3-4 days, but it'd probably be too much trouble. An easier way to do it might be to release one episode a week, with a second one every other week. I'll probably do it like that.

As for writing speed, keep in mind that I do this full time. And the fact that I write every day helped too--I started off at 1000 to 2000 words a day, now I average 6000 to 7000. The main thing though is that you can't force it (well, you can, but if you do too often that's a sure way to burn out). You have to let it happen naturally.


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## Bite the Dusty (Aug 9, 2020)

ASG said:


> I first thought of releasing one every 3-4 days, but it'd probably be too much trouble. An easier way to do it might be to release one episode a week, with a second one every other week. I'll probably do it like that.
> 
> As for writing speed, keep in mind that I do this full time. And the fact that I write every day helped too--I started off at 1000 to 2000 words a day, now I average 6000 to 7000. The main thing though is that you can't force it (well, you can, but if you do too often that's a sure way to burn out). You have to let it happen naturally.


I'm excited for the launch now, it will be cool to hear how everything goes with Vella.

Where you started word count wise is more or less where I'm at. It's nice to know if I keep at it it might improve over time.


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## jaxonreed (Dec 7, 2016)

And we have a date. Or at least a better idea of the timeline.

'We're excited to share that readers will have access to Kindle Vella stories in the Kindle iOS app and on Amazon.com by mid to late July! 

Once Kindle Vella stories are available for readers, they’ll be able to find and view your story’s detail page in the Kindle Vella store; read the first few episodes of your story for free; use new features like Follow, Faves, and Thumbs Up to engage with your story; and purchase Tokens to unlock more episodes. 

Make sure your stories are ready and waiting for readers to dive right in. Stay tuned for additional updates about when your stories will become available for readers."





__





KDP Community







www.kdpcommunity.com


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## scottdouglas (Mar 12, 2016)

MMSN said:


> Anybody find the Vella contract on the site? I wanted to look at it but can't find it.


They don't separate the contract--it's the same terms attached to your KDP account, I believe. The terms and conditions published last updated April of 2021 now has a section on Vella. The content guidelines are also in the Kindle Publishing help section.


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