# Never read "Game of Thrones" but...



## Stephen T. Harper

I've never read any of "Game of Thrones," but I'm getting excited by the hype for the HBO series.  Is this a must read before the show starts?  

Update: 3 episodes in and I love the show.  Fantastic character work.  Definitely adding books to my cue.


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## Carol (was Dara)

I too am very excited about the TV series. I'm hoping it'll be a little like LOTR in that you can understand what's going on even if you haven't yet read the books.


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## mom133d (aka Liz)

Several reviews I've read said that you don't have to be familiar with the books, in fact you might be better off. There are apparently references to events or information that we, the reader didn't learn until later books happening in the show for the sake of plot.


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## Cheryl Bradshaw Author

I am pretty excited for it too - already have it set to record  and I believe you don't need to read the book first in order to get a good grasp on it, but I have it on my list to read (and hopefully it won't spoil it for me!).


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## Ben White

I'm excited for the show, but I've never read much of the books--I wanted to like them but the writing style and voice never clicked for me.


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## NogDog

Ben White said:


> I'm excited for the show, but I've never read much of the books--I wanted to like them but the writing style and voice never clicked for me.


Yeah, I gave it a good shot -- probably read at least 200 pages -- but I was neither blown away by the writing nor caring about any of the (many!) characters except maybe one or two of them; so I moved on to other things.

As far as the TV show/series, if it's like 99% of book adaptations, you might like it _better_ if you have not read the books.


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## Stephen T. Harper

Ben White said:


> I'm excited for the show, but I've never read much of the books--I wanted to like them but the writing style and voice never clicked for me.





NogDog said:


> Yeah, I gave it a good shot -- probably read at least 200 pages -- but I was neither blown away by the writing nor caring about any of the (many!) characters except maybe one or two of them; so I moved on to other things.
> 
> As far as the TV show/series, if it's like 99% of book adaptations, you might like it _better_ if you have not read the books.
> 
> Thanks. That's pretty much what I wanted to know - if these are must read books or not. Sounds like people at least agree that the show looks good. Anybody think the books are a must? I'm sure I'll check them out eventually any way. Any big fans?


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## Tris

From the scenes provided on YouTube, it seems fairly straight forward from the book.  So I would assume that you wouldn't need to actually read the book.  I believe that is what the producers wanted to make it, and be fairly close to the actual book.  I read it because I always like to read the book version first if I can.  The book definitely gives you a bit more of an insight to the character as it's written in a semi-character POV or situation.  Some of it are internal thoughts and those are always tricky to portray on screen.  Many people told me that it was a difficult book to get into and/or slow.  I didn't find it difficult at all and breezed thru much of the book pretty quickly.  Sure there are a lot of characters, but thus far I haven't had any issues on keeping track of them and I am only 48% or so in.

Tris


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## endhalf

My excitement over this series is high too . There is so little good fantasy TV shows (well if you doesn't count anime) and Game of Thrones looks really great. Some reviews said that it is one of the best fantasy book ever. I don't know about that but it might be worth a try. Lets just hope the TV show will be great .


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## Ann in Arlington

I plan to read it so that when people talk about the movie I can say, "I read the book."


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## Jennybeanses

I read the first two books before today and started the third in hopes that it would make the series more enjoyable. I am so excited about tonight's premiere.


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## Kathelm

My understanding is that the first season will only cover Book 1, so the whole series isn't a priority just yet.  

The books are very intricately plotted and has tons of characters.  A good adaptation, though, should stand on its own, so I would hope that you won't have to read the books for the show to make sense.

That said, read the books anyway.  They're awesome.


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## Julia Kavan

Haven't read the books either - but looking forward to watching this!


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## Ben White

Hmm. I just finished watching the first episode, and put my thoughts about it into a bjournal post:

An In-Depth (but spoiler-free) Analysis Of The First Episode of "Game of Thrones"


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## Ben Dobson

Without spoilers, I'm going to say the show is very promising and the cast is excellent, I really enjoyed it.  I don't think there should be a lot of trouble if you haven't read the books--it might take a few episodes to get the big cast straight and figure out the relationships, but no more so than some great shows that aren't based on books.  The Wire, for instance.

My only complaint is that the episode feels too short, I wish they'd done a two hour premiere or something.  I think they simply might not have had time to get deep enough into the world for some newcomers to be really drawn in.  But I'm just guessing, since I've read the books and didn't need any extra drawing in.  Reviews are looking good even from a lot of people who haven't read them, so it can't be too big a problem.


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## padowd

I watched the show last night and loved it. I also wished they had done a 2 hour special on the first week. I now want to read the books. I am anxious to hear from those that have read the books how close the series is going to follow.


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## jason10mm

The show is VERY faithful to the books, probably too faithful. The books dribble out the backstory, I worry that TV viewers will want it up front. The intro gives you an idea of the geography, I wish it had a vioceover that explained the Targaryens, the Baratheon overthrow, and who Daenerys is. We will get that stuff, eventually, but I think it would be better to have an intro description.

The good news is that Martin's writing style is PERFECT for an episodic series. EVERY episode is going to end in a cliffhanger/WTF moment, and not a manufactured one. I can think of 4-5 episode endings right now that will blow minds.

There are a lot of flashbacks, or at least remembrances, in the books. No idea how they are going to do it in the series, as the characters will have to be much younger. Looking forward to it though, some iconic scenes await!


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## mooshie78

Thought it was very good and true to the book.  Only watched the pilot as it was free HBO weekend on DirecTV, so I probably won't watch any more until it comes out on Bluray.


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## WilliamM

thought it was very faithful to the book although i dont know how anyone is really going to be able to follow whats going on without reading the books..all the actors seemed to mumble a lot


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## PinkKindle

mooshie78 said:


> Thought it was very good and true to the book. Only watched the pilot as it was free HBO weekend on DirecTV, so I probably won't watch any more until it comes out on Bluray.


I can't promise this will work for you, but I also have DirecTV and don't have a subscription for the premium movie channels. However, when I looked before the free HBO weekend started, for some reason I do have HBO Signature (it was called "HBOSeHD" in the on-screen guide and is channel 503), and from what I can tell on the Game of Thrones website, they will be showing each Sunday night's episode on the following Friday night on that channel. Now I can't tell right now if I still have it, because it's still the free promo time and it still shows all the HBO channels available for me (even when I look days ahead) in the on-screen guide, but I'm really, really, really hoping that when I check tomorrow, it will still show I have HBOS available. So that's something you might want to check. Just a thought. 

I really enjoyed it also. Very true to the book, though occasionally some things were a bit out of order or spelled out a bit more or less information, but considering they are adapting for television, I think they did an excellent job. If I hadn't started a re-read of _Game of Thrones_ the day before watching it, I probably would have felt it was almost identical to the book. Very much the same feel. The books are also very adult, and the television adaptation didn't hold anything back in that regard.


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## jason10mm

Fuzzy Dunlop said:


> thought it was very faithful to the book although i dont know how anyone is really going to be able to follow whats going on without reading the books..all the actors seemed to mumble a lot


This is very true. A LOT of significant info is being delivered in off the cuff conversations that are often drowned out by background noise (be it actual noise, scenery, or events). Most of the Targaryen situation was explained while viewers are distracted by whirling dancers or fantastic vistas, and the crucial elements of service in the Night's Watch was delivered during a loud feast. I think HBO is relying on promo clips and web sites to deliver this kind of exposition to viewers unfamiliar with the books. I wish the intro was more explanatory, though I do hear that the intro will change depending on the events/locations shown in the episode.


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## EGranfors

I haven't read it (and didn't know it was even a book) until the promos began.  I may check it out.


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## Stephen T. Harper

jason10mm said:


> The good news is that Martin's writing style is PERFECT for an episodic series. EVERY episode is going to end in a cliffhanger/WTF moment, and not a manufactured one. I can think of 4-5 episode endings right now that will blow minds.


That sounds like my kind of show. Unfortunately, I completely forgot when it premiered. It's DVR'd, but now I have to wait until my wife returns from biz trip on Wednesday.


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## Mcfergeson

Been reading the first book for the past week, now. I won't start watching the series until I'm done with the novel. I'm more than halfway through the book, and it's great, btw.


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## Guest

We DVR'd it so I could watch with the hubby so I have to wait.  He did a charity thing today and was exhausted.

Stoked!


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## Basilius

Mcfergeson said:


> Been reading the first book for the past week, now. I won't start watching the series until I'm done with the novel. I'm more than halfway through the book, and it's great, btw.


FWIW, the first episode covered the first nine chapters (through the 2nd Bran chapter), and chapter 12 (the 2nd Daenerys chapter). This is one of those times I wish Martin numbered his chapters. If you've read at least that far, you can watch the first episode without spoiling anything.


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## mooshie78

PinkKindle said:


> I can't promise this will work for you, but I also have DirecTV and don't have a subscription for the premium movie channels. However, when I looked before the free HBO weekend started, for some reason I do have HBO Signature (it was called "HBOSeHD" in the on-screen guide and is channel 503), and from what I can tell on the Game of Thrones website, they will be showing each Sunday night's episode on the following Friday night on that channel. Now I can't tell right now if I still have it, because it's still the free promo time and it still shows all the HBO channels available for me (even when I look days ahead) in the on-screen guide, but I'm really, really, really hoping that when I check tomorrow, it will still show I have HBOS available. So that's something you might want to check. Just a thought.


No such luck for me. The channel isn't grayed out in the guide, but it shows up a "Channel Not Purchased" when you go to it.


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## endhalf

I have seen the first episode of the game of trones and I really liked it. It was very violent and sexual as true fantasy should be... But I don't know about Americans... You Americans seem to be overly sensitive to sexuality in TV... It will be certainly succesfull in Europe though... I have planned to buy all game of thrones books, they sell them in my country for about 100 dollars  I belive it is 8 books...


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## mooshie78

endhalf said:


> I have planned to buy all game of thrones books, they sell them in my country for about 100 dollars  I belive it is 8 books...


It's a planned 7 book series.

The first 4 have been out for a while, book 5 comes out this summer. Books 6 and 7 aren't written yet.


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## endhalf

It is "song of ice and fire" series... Might be possible that there aren't just  Game of Thrones books


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## mooshie78

endhalf said:


> It is "song of ice and fire" series... Might be possible that there aren't just Game of Thrones books


Yes, the Song of Ice and Fire series is 7 books, with 4 out so far, book 5 out this summer and 6 and 7 to come. A Game of Thrones is just the first book in the series

A Game of Thrones
A Clash of Kings
A Storm of Swords
A Feast for Crows
A Dance with Dragons
The Winds of Winter
A Dream of Spring


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## MichelleR

endhalf said:


> It was very violent and sexual as true fantasy should be... But I don't know about Americans... You Americans seem to be overly sensitive to sexuality in TV...


It's on HBO, which is pay cable, meaning people have paid extra for that smut.


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## mom133d (aka Liz)

Renewed for a second season!!! http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/04/19/game-of-thrones-renewed/


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## SebastianDark

I love all fantasy, usually, but GOT was a bit too.. dense.. for me. At least back when I first read it. There were so many characters introduced in such a short span of time that you had to consistently backtrack to figure out their relationships to one another. That was the least enjoyable part, for me. But I watched the premiere, and now have a better grasp of the characters I read about earlier.

So, I'd say watch the first episode, _then_ go and read the book. It'll help you in sorting all the characters out.


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## mooshie78

Yeah, the books a bit overwhelming at first.  By about half way through Game of Thrones you'll have the main characters sorted out and new one's get introduced more gradually over the remaining books.

I do agree that reading after watching a few episodes may help as well since you get a quicker introduction to the main characters in the show than in the book.


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## jonathanmoeller

I plan to wait until the season is done, and then get it on DVD.

Big books, though. I'd say read 'em before watching the show, but that's just a personal preference on my part.


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## kCopeseeley

I know everything is personal preference, but the child in me is sad when people say that Martin isn't a good writer.  I admit to being a skeptic when my friend told me that Ice and Fire was the best fantasy series every written.  (I mean, would YOU believe someone who said that?)  But when I read that series, I was blown away.  Every book is like a new example of what a master of character development Martin is.  He has become the gold standard by which I judge all writers now.  

I think I'm going to buy the DVDs when they come out, then I can enjoy them all in one big marathon.    SOOOOOO excited they got renewed for the second season!!!


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## Blanche

> I know everything is personal preference, but the child in me is sad when people say that Martin isn't a good writer. I admit to being a skeptic when my friend told me that Ice and Fire was the best fantasy series every written. (I mean, would YOU believe someone who said that?) But when I read that series, I was blown away. Every book is like a new example of what a master of character development Martin is. He has become the gold standard by which I judge all writers now.


I couldn't have stated it better. I think the books are fantastic -- characters are gritty and complex and Martin adds a new layer to them with each book. I watched the premiere (Direct TV free HBO weekend ). Very much enjoyed the premiere although was short. I like that the show remained true to the books. Will have to hold off and buy them when they all become available. But hopefully, I can read the next book in the series in the interim!


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## PinkKindle

mooshie78 said:


> No such luck for me. The channel isn't grayed out in the guide, but it shows up a "Channel Not Purchased" when you go to it.


This happened to me too now that the free weekend is over.  I'm sooooo upset. I guess I'll be glad to watch them all at once when the Blu-Ray comes out, but right now I'm just sad.


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## mom133d (aka Liz)

SebastianDark said:


> I love all fantasy, usually, but GOT was a bit too.. dense.. for me. At least back when I first read it. There were so many characters introduced in such a short span of time that you had to consistently backtrack to figure out their relationships to one another.


No, its true. Same with me. I used the family tree in the back constantly and was always having to flip back to the beginning of the chapter to see who the POV was from. And my husband went the audio book route. I have no idea how he kept the characters and POV changes straight.
I'm on my 4th read of GoT now with the Sci-fi/Fantasy book club over on Goodreads. I've don't think I've read anything this many times. 2 times usually, with the intent to read again but get distracted by other unread titles.


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## Tris

Saw this YouTube video from the "Winter Is Coming" website (a website all about the 'Game of Thrones' TV series), and it was funny. This guy is REALLY loving the show, so I thought it would be funny to share.

There is a warning to this video for language and a spoiler for the first episode...

http://youtu.be/3UA8swJtPsQ

Tris


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## Sean Thomas Fisher

Never read the books but watched the HBO premiere last night and was blown away. The ten minute opening was amazing! May have to dive into the books after this season. Hope there are a lot more White Walkers to come. Those things are crazy.


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## MichelleR

Tris said:


> Saw this YouTube video from the "Winter Is Coming" website (a website all about the 'Game of Thrones' TV series), and it was funny. This guy is REALLY loving the show, so I thought it would be funny to share.
> 
> There is a warning to this video for language and a spoiler for the first episode...
> 
> http://youtu.be/3UA8swJtPsQ
> 
> Tris


oooooh-suuuuum, dude!


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## Miriam Minger

Enjoyed the first episode last night on HBO On Demand, so looking forward to more.  

Miriam Minger


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## KaliedaRik

I read the series a couple of years ago, mainly because I was competing to design the Dothraki language (don't ask!) Getting into the first book was a bit of a struggle - too many POV characters, even for me, and I'm crap at remembering familial histories as I read - but by the end of the book I was hooked.

GRRM is a very 'easy on the eye' writer, I think. The words don't get in the way of the story, and the story he's telling us is fascinating, compelling stuff. I particularly like the way he world-builds Westeros: not just another mediaeval fantasy setting, with the settings as much a character in the story as the humans.

I'm an Arya fan, myself ... she's one heck of a character.


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## Mcfergeson

Basilius said:


> FWIW, the first episode covered the first nine chapters (through the 2nd Bran chapter), and chapter 12 (the 2nd Daenerys chapter). This is one of those times I wish Martin numbered his chapters. If you've read at least that far, you can watch the first episode without spoiling anything.


Thanks very much!

I'm about 75 percent of the way through GOT, so I think I'll just finish the book completely before watching any of the eps. I got them on VOD through my cable, so I have plenty of time.

I'm glad to hear the series has been renewed! We need more stuff like this on TV.


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## Neekeebee

KaliedaRik said:


> I read the series a couple of years ago, mainly because I was competing to design the Dothraki language (don't ask!)


Seriously? Neat! (I know you said not to ask but I couldn't resist commenting.)

N


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## Stephen T. Harper

Okay, finally saw the show!  As the original poster of this thread I was very jealous of all the comments but I had promised my wife to wait until she got home from a business trip to watch the dvr'd premiere.

Totally worth the wait.  Sophisticated, intelligent, beautiful even in the ugly parts.  I also see how the first book would be a chore to get through with all those set ups.  So many characters and settings.  But you know, this show might be a great primer to make diving into the novels easier.

Also interesting that it seemed barely a "fantasy." other than the decapitating wraiths at the beginning and the mention of dragon eggs, there was no magic or monsters.  

Definitely looking forward the rest of the season.


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## David M. Baum

Blanche said:


> I think the books are fantastic -- characters are gritty and complex and Martin adds a new layer to them with each book.


You can like the books or hate them, but I think they are a study in character development. There were a few characters which I hated in the first book, and which shifted to grudging admiration in the third book. There are no black-and-white characters in the books, and that is due to some fantastic writing, IMO.

I will not watch the series, because the image of the actors will intrude upon or replace my own images of the characters, and that really annoys me. Once I have finished all the books (and more importantly GRRM finishes writing them) I will watch the series. I think.


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## kCopeseeley

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Also interesting that it seemed barely a "fantasy." other than the decapitating wraiths at the beginning and the mention of dragon eggs, there was no magic or monsters.


YES!! That is part of the genius of Martin! Most people wouldn't read a fantasy book can read this stuff, because it's mostly like medieval fiction.

I'm a HUGE Tyrion fan and a huge Dinklage fan, so I am interested in seeing his portrayal, though I take the point about the show spoiling the personal viewpoint of the characters.


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## Stephen T. Harper

kCopeseeley said:


> YES!! That is part of the genius of Martin! Most people wouldn't read a fantasy book can read this stuff, because it's mostly like medieval fiction.
> 
> I'm a HUGE Tyrion fan and a huge Dinklage fan, so I am interested in seeing his portrayal, though I take the point about the show spoiling the personal viewpoint of the characters.


Very cool. No matter what genre, for me it's always going to be about the characters. I think I will enjoy these books (someday, after a whittle down my "to read" cue).

And yes, Peter Dinklage was really good in his role. I'm still not sure who everybody is at this point, but he's an excellent actor and that came through strong in Ep. 1.


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## mooshie78

Finished a Feast for Crows last night, so I'm done with the books until the 5th one comes out in July.

Really enjoying the series, though book 4 I didn't find nearly as good as the first 3.


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## David M. Baum

mooshie78 said:


> Really enjoying the series, though book 4 I didn't find nearly as good as the first 3.


Yes, that's a complaint of many readers. I still liked it, but the plot has become somewhat convoluted. I really hope he will come back with a very strong book 4. But GRRM might be in danger to go down Robert Jordan's path, where the middle books really made it difficult to stick with the series.


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## kCopeseeley

David M. Baum said:


> Yes, that's a complaint of many readers. I still liked it, but the plot has become somewhat convoluted. I really hope he will come back with a very strong book 4. But GRRM might be in danger to go down Robert Jordan's path, where the middle books really made it difficult to stick with the series.


At least there's not as many.


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## mooshie78

David M. Baum said:


> Yes, that's a complaint of many readers. I still liked it, but the plot has become somewhat convoluted. I really hope he will come back with a very strong book 4. But GRRM might be in danger to go down Robert Jordan's path, where the middle books really made it difficult to stick with the series.


Well, book 5 will be focused back on Dany and the stuff on the wall etc. so that should help.

I did find in amusing that in his little afterward in book 4 Martin said he decided to finish the story for the characters in book 4 first, and then go onto other characters for book 5, rather than just stopping in the middle when he realized it was too much for one book. Why I find it amusing is none of the stories of the book 4 characters are anywhere near finished!

My biggest worry is how he'll resolve the plot satisfactorily with only 3 books remaining given how many plot threads are hanging out there currently.

Anyway, my biggest gripe with book 4 was that it just introduced too many new points of view in a series that already has too many points of view IMO. I had a hard time caring about the stuff with the Greyjoys and the Dornish personally. The parts about Cersie, Jaime and Brienne were the strong points of the book. But again, book 5 should be much better since it's focused on central characters.


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## R. M. Reed

I saw a couple of reviews of the show that said Tyrion was comic relief. They obviously have not read the books. I can't see this until DVDs come out, I am hoping that will be fairly soon.


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## David M. Baum

kCopeseeley said:


> At least there's not as many.


LOL, true. Although I wonder whether GRRM can stick to 7 books. 
I think WoT was also originally planned as a 7-book series, but I might be wrong.


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## WilliamM

kCopeseeley said:


> YES!! That is part of the genius of Martin! Most people wouldn't read a fantasy book can read this stuff, because it's mostly like medieval fiction.
> 
> I'm a HUGE Tyrion fan and a huge Dinklage fan, so I am interested in seeing his portrayal, though I take the point about the show spoiling the personal viewpoint of the characters.


thats what attracted me to the books initially..read a review about how the magic and typical fantasy elements were toned down quite a bit


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## mom133d (aka Liz)

R. Reed said:


> I saw a couple of reviews of the show that said Tyrion was comic relief. They obviously have not read the books. I can't see this until DVDs come out, I am hoping that will be fairly soon.


Of course he is...aren't dwarves always the court jester?


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## MosheG

Charles Dance is great!


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## DYB

I'm approaching the end of the first book (dreading the big horrible event that I know is coming because I saw a spoiler.)  Anyway, I love Martin's writing.  Very straight-forward, but not simplistic.  The many points of view are fascinating and the characters are so complex and richly drawn.  You like them one chapter and hate them the next.  (So far Tyrion is the love/hate king.)  My favorite characters are Jon Snow and Arya.  With Ned also...of course.

I have not seen the premiere because I don't have HBO.  But I'm actually considering getting it this weekend, so I'll catch up.  

About Book 4.  The reactions to it are very mixed.  From what I've read Martin wrote one massive (more massive than others, which is saying something) book and his publisher wanted to publish it in two volumes.  He decided to just somehow split it in half and re-arranged into what became Book 4 and then re-wrote the remaining parts into what will be Book 5.  I'm sad to hear that book 4 does not feature the more familiar/beloved characters (like Jon.)  I fear I will have a hard time getting through it (like everyone else, it seems).


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## Neekeebee

David M. Baum said:


> LOL, true. Although I wonder whether GRRM can stick to 7 books.
> I think WoT was also originally planned as a 7-book series, but I might be wrong.


Now you've got me wondering that too. IIRC, this series started as 3 books (I thought it was a trilogy and when I started reading it at the time book 3 was due to come out), then became 5, and is now 7.



mom133d said:


> Of course he is...aren't dwarves always the court jester?


Tyrion comic relief? NEVER! 



DYB said:


> I'm approaching the end of the first book (dreading the big horrible even that I know is coming because I saw a spoiler.)


I _still_ dread the "big horrible" during re-reads. Once I even stopped reading altogether b/c I knew what was about to happen.

N


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## R. M. Reed

Neekeebee said:


> Tyrion comic relief? NEVER!


Exactly. He may want people to think he's harmless, but he's not.


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## purplepen79

Neekeebee said:


> I _still_ dread the "big horrible" during re-reads. Once I even stopped reading altogether b/c I knew what was about to happen.
> 
> N


I remember the first time I read that scene, I tossed the book aside and burst into tears--I was so mad at Martin I refused to pick the book back up for several days.


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## DYB

purplepen79 said:


> I remember the first time I read that scene, I tossed the book aside and burst into tears--I was so mad at Martin I refused to pick the book back up for several days.


Frankly this is why it's taken me this long to get through Book 1. I've been reading it for a few months. Knowing that it's coming I've just been putting it aside for a few weeks at a time. And I'm having a hard time going back to it right now. I'm at about 70% on the Kindle, so I know it's around the corner, but it's hard to continue. Though I'm glad I know because I've been trying to keep my distance from this person. Being surprised by it would just kill me!


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## MichelleR

Okay, I think I might know what the thing is -- having read a snippet of something -- but you all are making me nervous. I'm only at 8%, having other reading obligations before me. Ideally, I would like to be past the events of episode 2 before tomorrow, but I doubt it.


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## David M. Baum

Neekeebee said:


> Now you've got me wondering that too. IIRC, this series started as 3 books (I thought it was a trilogy and when I started reading it at the time book 3 was due to come out), then became 5, and is now 7.
> 
> Tyrion comic relief? NEVER!


I don't think it was originally viewed as a trilogy, but 5 books, yes, that does ring a bell. I guess we will have to wait and see. 

I think people who only watch HBO will be surprised by Tyrion's role in the story. Having him perceived as comic relief, if intentional, is a stroke of genius, IMO.


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## mooshie78

purplepen79 said:


> I remember the first time I read that scene, I tossed the book aside and burst into tears--I was so mad at Martin I refused to pick the book back up for several days.


That was what really hooked me on the series personally. Not really a specific spoiler, but I'll tag this just to be safe,....


Spoiler



too many writers, especially in the fantasy genre, are too easy on their characters with central characters never dying. It makes some long series a bit dull to read as you know the major characters will always come out unscathed. Right from that point in the book you know that no characters in this series are safe and it really adds to the drama of the series IMO.


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## purplepen79

mooshie78 said:


> That was what really hooked me on the series personally. Not really a specific spoiler, but I'll tag this just to be safe,....
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> too many writers, especially in the fantasy genre, are too easy on their characters with central characters never dying. It makes some long series a bit dull to read as you know the major characters will always come out unscathed. Right from that point in the book you know that no characters in this series are safe and it really adds to the drama of the series IMO.


Good point. I agree but I also think there are a lot of ways to create suspense


Spoiler



without necessarily killing off characters. Sometimes it's necessary to kill main characters (and honestly with the scene we're discussing, I am in complete agreement with what Martin does), but some writers carry it too far. And if a writer is generating suspense by mostly killing off characters, that's probably not a series I want to read. One reviewer on Amazon described it as the Titus Andronicus syndrome--with some series, you know when you start to like a character, that character will probably be dead or have some other horrible thing happen to him or her in the next chapter. It gets predictable in the other direction from what you're describing. I personally like to read about characters' relationship development (which Martin excels at) and how that drives the plot The kinds of books you describe where the main characters always come out unscathed don't appeal to me either. In realistic character development, there are consequences for actions--the consequence doesn't always have to be death or physical maiming, but there should be a consequence.


 That's how realistic plots grow, IMO.


----------



## purplepen79

MichelleR said:


> Okay, I think I might know what the thing is -- having read a snippet of something -- but you all are making me nervous. I'm only at 8%, having other reading obligations before me. Ideally, I would like to be past the events of episode 2 before tomorrow, but I doubt it.


Sorry to make you nervous! You'll have to let us know what you think when you're done. _Game of Thrones _ is one of my all-time favorite books because it's one of the few fantasy books that has affected me so deeply. The only other fantasy books that have had a similar effect on me were _Lord of the Rings_ and a couple of Robin McKinley's fairy tale retellings.


----------



## MichelleR

purplepen79 said:


> Sorry to make you nervous! You'll have to let us know what you think when you're done. _Game of Thrones _ is one of my all-time favorite books because it's one of the few fantasy books that has affected me so deeply. The only other fantasy books that have had a similar effect on me were _Lord of the Rings_ and a couple of Robin McKinley's fairy tale retellings.


I just read the Dothraki wedding scene and I have to say I like the book version more -- her reaction to the horse. "Tell Khal Drogo that he has given me the wind." I know from reading around that Dany is going to be a really interesting character.


----------



## brianspringer13

It's a must-read no matter what. 

Personally, I would definitely read the books first, if only to avoid seeing the actors as the characters once you get around to reading the books.
I've read the series multiple times, and I'll wait for the first-season DVD to start watching.

Springer


----------



## MichelleR

brianspringer13 said:


> Personally, I would definitely read the books first, if only to avoid seeing the actors as the characters once you get around to reading the books.
> 
> Springer


See, that doesn't bother me.


----------



## brianspringer13

Really? It drives me crazy. But then again I'm a weak-minded troll, so it comes with the territory . . .

Seriously though, that's pretty cool. The few times I saw a movie before reading the book, it drove me crazy to see the actor in my mind instead of my own creation. I try to avoid it at all costs now. That and watching a movie/show too soon after reading the book. That ruins the movie experience for me too. I need a nice long break or else the movie just seems an even paler comparison than it normally does.

Springer


----------



## MichelleR

brianspringer13 said:


> Really? It drives me crazy. But then again I'm a weak-minded troll, so it comes with the territory . . .
> 
> Seriously though, that's pretty cool. The few times I saw a movie before reading the book, it drove me crazy to see the actor in my mind instead of my own creation. I try to avoid it at all costs now. That and watching a movie/show too soon after reading the book. That ruins the movie experience for me too. I need a nice long break or else the movie just seems an even paler comparison than it normally does.
> 
> Springer


I think it's a matter of wiring. I don't picture characters clearly so much as I have a vague image of them involving a few of their features. I tend to be more about a character's thoughts and words. So, I suppose I don't mind a TV show or movie providing a clearer physical picture of them, at least until I come up with my own. I'm okay with Sookie Stackhouse looking like Anna Paquin, for instance. 

Stephen King says that writing is telepathy -- it's the writer communicating with a reader across time and space -- but he acknowledges that the reader will never completely understand how the writer saw it:

"Do we see the same thing? We'd have to get together and compare notes to make absolutely sure, but I think we do. There will be variations, of course: some receivers will see a cloth that is turkey red, some will see one that's scarlet, will others will see still other shades."

It doesn't bother me to have a show sketch in some lines, because I already know that there's interpretation at work. The show is just another interpretation and, if in reading the book, that interpretation doesn't match, it'll fall by the wayside.


----------



## mooshie78

Yeah, I don't have much of a visual imagination so I don't do much in the way of envisioning what the characters etc. look like when reading a novel anyway.  So it doesn't bother me to read and have an actor's image in mind etc.


----------



## purplepen79

MichelleR said:


> I think it's a matter of wiring. I don't picture characters clearly so much as I have a vague image of them involving a few of their features. I tend to be more about a character's thoughts and words. So, I suppose I don't mind a TV show or movie providing a clearer physical picture of them, at least until I come up with my own. I'm okay with Sookie Stackhouse looking like Anna Paquin, for instance.


I agree with you--for me, it's not about the actors matching the physical appearance of a character so much as matching my overall impression of that character, which involves personality more than physicality. I've seen some movies based on books where the actors match what I pictured the characters to look like perfectly--but their performances don't match my impression of the characters at all, which is very jarring. Other movies may not get all the physical details the same, but the actor IS that character for me in some indefinable way. As I don't have TV or streaming internet, I haven't seen yet how HBO's _Game of Thrones_ matches up with my impression of the characters, but reading the comments here, I can't wait for the DVDs! Speaking of that (and this is going to sound kinda weird), I actually really like waiting for the DVDs. I didn't "discover" _6 Feet Under _ for myself until long after the show finished airing and what an experience it was to see all the episodes from all five seasons for the first time without having to wait several months for the next season. It's been like that for _Supernatural_ too--I've watched all of the first five seasons over the last six months and it's been really intense. And really cool.


----------



## MichelleR

purplepen79 said:


> I agree with you--for me, it's not about the actors matching the physical appearance of a character so much as matching my overall impression of that character, which involves personality more than physicality. I've seen some movies based on books where the actors match what I pictured the characters to look like perfectly--but their performances don't match my impression of the characters at all, which is very jarring. Other movies may not get all the physical details the same, but the actor IS that character for me in some indefinable way. As I don't have TV or streaming internet, I haven't seen yet how HBO's _Game of Thrones_ matches up with my impression of the characters, but reading the comments here, I can't wait for the DVDs! Speaking of that (and this is going to sound kinda weird), I actually really like waiting for the DVDs. I didn't "discover" _6 Feet Under _ for myself until long after the show finished airing and what an experience it was to see all the episodes from all five seasons for the first time without having to wait several months for the next season. It's been like that for _Supernatural_ too--I've watched all of the first five seasons over the last six months and it's been really intense. And really cool.


I love getting box sets and doing a whole series at once -- or at least a whole season at once. We're on the last season of The Wire. I think next might be Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica.

I discovered Six Feet Under the same way that you did and the ending was so profoundly moving to me and changed the way I looked at a lot of things.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

I need to start Six Feet Under again. I saw one or two seasons in re-run but then stopped for some reason or another. But I loved what I saw.


----------



## David M. Baum

brianspringer13 said:


> The few times I saw a movie before reading the book, it drove me crazy to see the actor in my mind instead of my own creation. I try to avoid it at all costs now. That and watching a movie/show too soon after reading the book. That ruins the movie experience for me too. I need a nice long break or else the movie just seems an even paler comparison than it normally does.
> 
> Springer


 I have the exact same thing. That's why I will try to see nothing from the HBO series until GRRM finished the whole book series. The pace he's going, DVD's won't exist anymore by that time.


----------



## SidneyW

I started the book after watching Ep. 1 and am really enjoying it.


----------



## Stephen T. Harper

MichelleR said:


> It doesn't bother me to have a show sketch in some lines, because I already know that there's interpretation at work. The show is just another interpretation and, if in reading the book, that interpretation doesn't match, it'll fall by the wayside.


I agree too. The reading experience is so different. I don't necessarily see faces that clearly in my head. Sometimes it's more like the way a dog perceives people, a conglomeration of senses that give a distinct impression, but isn't necessarily able to pick out freckles on faces. In other words, when I re-read Lord of the Rings, I don't see Elijah Wood and Sean Aston. It's still Frodo and Sam. And I think when I eventually get around to reading Game of Thrones, I'm not worried that the actors will be stuck in my head.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson

I'm not gonna claim the series is worthless rubbish or anything like that--I read three and a half of the novels, after all, so Martin had to be doing something right--but eventually I got so mad at his artificial creation of suspense I slammed the fourth book closed and have not been tempted to revisit. Every single chapter ends on a cliffhanger, and by the time Martin returns to that cliffhung character a hundred-odd pages later, he's skipped past all the action. The manipulation of it really got to me after a while. I don't need to be yanked along like that.

And I like grit as much as the next guy, but it would be nice for something nice to happen ever, or for there to be any recognizable themes beyond "The strong should protect the weak, but they never really do." Martin's style is good and he's great with characterization and epic sweep. But that's exactly why I got so frustrated when he let me down.


----------



## Chris Strange

purplepen79 said:


> I agree with you--for me, it's not about the actors matching the physical appearance of a character so much as matching my overall impression of that character, which involves personality more than physicality.


I totally agree with you there. For me the character's voice and personality is the most important thing to get right when adapting a book to the screen. Specific physical features are all well and good, but usually they do not make the character who they are. (With obvious exceptions--if Tyrion wasn't a dwarf in the TV series it would completely change his character. Likewise with Sansa's beauty.)


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Gotta say, if any actor has matched up the personality and presence 1000%, it is Sean Bean. Love every time he's on the screen. Good ol' Ned Stark.

...

Sigh.


----------



## brianspringer13

For me the DVD box set is definitely the way to go. I started that with THE SOPRANOS a few years back, and have done it with THE SHIELD and THE WIRE too. Once I get into them I just bust right through them. The whole wait-a-week for each episode and wait months in between seasons just drives me crazy. Anything I think I'll like I just skip until at least a few seasons of the DVD come out, if not the whole darn thing.

Springer


----------



## Basilius

brianspringer13 said:


> Personally, I would definitely read the books first, if only to avoid seeing the actors as the characters once you get around to reading the books.
> I've read the series multiple times, and I'll wait for the first-season DVD to start watching.


This has only really happened to me once. I read Pratchett's _The Colour of Magic_, then watched the first half of the BBC TV version. When I finally read _The Light Fantastic_, I could NOT hear Twoflower's character in anything but Sean Astin's voice. And that's partly because it was the PERFECT casting choice.


----------



## kCopeseeley

MichelleR said:


> I love getting box sets and doing a whole series at once -- or at least a whole season at once. We're on the last season of The Wire. I think next might be Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica.


BSG! BSG! Sorry, I'm a crazy fan of the re-imagining of that series. They did such a great job with character development.


----------



## MichelleR

Duly noted.


----------



## Basilius

For those keeping track at home, Game of Thrones has gotten through 17 book chapters (Chapter 17 is the third Eddard chapter) in two TV episodes. Given there's 73 chapters in the book, and 10 episodes, that's just about right.


----------



## Mcfergeson

I finished the first book, and it was great. I loved the epic sweep that Martin creates. The series is doing a superb job with the story so far.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

I just finished _A Game of Thrones_. It was a good story. No desire to read further, however. I was doing a lot of skimming. . . a sure sign it's not _really_ holding my interest. AND, the Kindle edition I was reading locked up whenever I wanted to place bookmark, so that was annoying. I can see where it would make a good mini-series. . . .I may lend/recommend it to my son.


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

I bought the four books bundled on Amazon yesterday, to read after the first season wraps. If the relationships are as dense in the book as some have said, I think having watched the series will help. Don't know if the usual disappointment will be there - finding that the series altered the first book. Either way, I'm looking forward to reading.


----------



## David M. Baum

Apparently, GRRM has completed the 4th book in the series, _A Dance With Dragons_.

Per Tor.com: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/04/george-rr-martin-has-completed-a-dance-with-dragons

*Edited to add*: now also confirmed by the series editor: http://suvudu.com/2011/04/yes-it-is-done-really.html


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

David M. Baum said:


> Apparently, GRRM has completed the 4th book in the series, _A Dance With Dragons_.


5th book  Release date July 12!


----------



## David M. Baum

mom133d said:


> 5th book  Release date July 12!


Arg, correct. The 5th book. I'm a writer. Maths is not my thing. 

About the release date, I believe that many feared he would not make it.


----------



## mooshie78

Ann in Arlington said:


> I just finished _A Game of Thrones_. It was a good story. No desire to read further, however. I was doing a lot of skimming. . . a sure sign it's not _really_ holding my interest. AND, the Kindle edition I was reading locked up whenever I wanted to place bookmark, so that was annoying. I can see where it would make a good mini-series. . . .I may lend/recommend it to my son.


Yeah, I wouldn't bother reading any more in that case. It doesn't really change/get better after the first book. The writing style and tone is pretty even across the books. If the first one didn't grab you, no reason to waste time on the other books.



lyarde11751 said:


> Don't know if the usual disappointment will be there - finding that the series altered the first book. Either way, I'm looking forward to reading.


Thus far, the first 2 episodes have been very true to the books with just some very minor changes. Of course I'm not sensitive to adaptations and not one who expects movies/tv shows to be 100% faithful to the source material either, so I may not be the best judge of that.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

mooshie78 said:


> Thus far, the first 2 episodes have been very true to the books with just some very minor changes. Of course I'm not sensitive to adaptations and not one who expects movies/tv shows to be 100% faithful to the source material either, so I may not be the best judge of that.


I've been re-reading GoT with a bookclub - we're up to Chapter 45...so its fresh in my mind. Yes, they have stayed very true to the book. I think I read somewhere that at the end of Episode 2, that brought us to Chapter 17 in the book.


----------



## JRTomlin

jason10mm said:


> The show is VERY faithful to the books, probably too faithful. The books dribble out the backstory, I worry that TV viewers will want it up front. The intro gives you an idea of the geography, I wish it had a vioceover that explained the Targaryens, the Baratheon overthrow, and who Daenerys is. We will get that stuff, eventually, but I think it would be better to have an intro description.
> 
> The good news is that Martin's writing style is PERFECT for an episodic series. EVERY episode is going to end in a cliffhanger/WTF moment, and not a manufactured one. I can think of 4-5 episode endings right now that will blow minds.
> 
> There are a lot of flashbacks, or at least remembrances, in the books. No idea how they are going to do it in the series, as the characters will have to be much younger. Looking forward to it though, some iconic scenes await!


Oh, this searies is SO going to have mind-blowing WTF moments. Some big ones. I love the books and so far I'm really impressed with the series.



Half-Orc said:


> Gotta say, if any actor has matched up the personality and presence 1000%, it is Sean Bean. Love every time he's on the screen. Good ol' Ned Stark.
> 
> ...
> 
> Sigh.


He is the PERFECT Ned Stark. Everything about him is right. I knew it from the second they announced he had the role and so far ... absolutely. He couldn't be better.


----------



## Ash Stirling

I'm a huge fantasy fan but Game of Thrones was one series I just couldn't get into.


----------



## Ty Johnston

I've got this series, but I've yet to read it. I keep putting it off because of all the hoopla about GRRM taking so long between books. Figured I'd start the series once the next book comes out.

But now my wife wants to watch the HBO program. Figures, because she has never shown much interest in fantasy before. Guess I've got some reading to do! ;-)


----------



## Ann in Arlington

darkbow said:


> But now my wife wants to watch the HBO program. Figures, because she has never shown much interest in fantasy before. Guess I've got some reading to do! ;-)


Honestly, I think I'd enjoy the story more as a TV series. . . .kinda wishing we had HBO. . .but still not willing to shell out just for this.


----------



## David McAfee

I don't have HBO, so no Game of Thrones show for me. I'm in the middle of the book, and I like it, but I find I can only take it in small doses. A chapter or two at a time.


----------



## R. M. Reed

There will be DVDs. When they come out, I will Netflix this show.


----------



## Stephen T. Harper

Second episode of the show was tremendous.  Great character work.  The story juggles so many, but does an excellent job of giving everyone a special moment so you very quickly come to care about them.  Whether that means rooting for or against, at least you care.

There is a tendency in fiction, and definitely on TV to create bad guys that you begrudgingly like.  Here, the heroes all have flaws, which is great, but I really hate the all the villains.  Refreshing and fun.

I have a long reading list at the moment (thank you, ebooks ), but I'm going to add this series for sure.


----------



## joepr

whenever u can read the book but the hbo series, so far, is very faithful to the book.

I enjoyed the book and now I'm enjoying the tv series.


----------



## BrentNichols

No HBO.  The suspense is killing me.  Of course, the suspense of waiting for the next book has been killing me for even longer.  Apparently it's not exacty killing me.  It's not helping me any, let me tell you.


----------



## Grady Hendrix

I really deeply dislike fantasy, to the point where when my wife asked if I wanted to hear a fantasy of hers I thought she was going to start talking about the lost dragons and the return of the darrow elves and so I ran out of the room screaming. However, someone I know really recommended the George RR Martin books and so, reluctantly, I downloaded the four of them. Cut to: me consuming them with unseemly speed. I'm 2/3's of the way through _Feast of Crows_ and am really looking forward to buying the new one in July so I can give GRRM some of my hard-earned cash in exchange for his new book (look mom - piracy works! Kind of. Never mind.)

I'm not sure why _Feast_ gets so much hate, but I've really liked it and I kind of appreciate getting away from the same POV's again and again occurring one after the other in order.


----------



## JRTomlin

BrentNichols said:


> No HBO. The suspense is killing me. Of course, the suspense of waiting for the next book has been killing me for even longer. Apparently it's not exacty killing me. It's not helping me any, let me tell you.


The waiting for the book is allllmost over. I have never waited so long and so anxiously for any novel!

Great series, but as good as it is, I'll always love the books more.


----------



## Chris Strange

I've been very impressed with how faithful the series has been so far. I'm even more impressed that it doesn't do this at the expense of making a good TV show.

The only bits of the show I'm not convinced about are the Daenerys scenes, which were always going to be difficult as so much of the conflict and development is inside Dany's head.


----------



## MichelleR

We're visiting my husband's family this week and I found myself in the basement of my bro-in-law's house while the guys checked out a train layout. I sorta quietly pulled out my Kindle while listening the everyone talking and the sound of the train. Before I knew it, my bro-in-law and, um, nephew-in-law were discussing the books and series. So, I said, "That's what I'm reading right now. No, literally -- right now." Then when my niece showed up, her husband was like, "Guess what your aunt is reading."


----------



## Miriam Minger

I'm really enjoying the HBO series, but I have to admit I like the scenes with Khal Drogo best.  Sorry, can't help myself.  

Miriam Minger


----------



## Wunderkind

By the end of the second show on HBO, I had to start the second book Clash of Kings. I had read Game of Thrones last year and seeing the show reignited my interest in continuing to read the books. Enjoying both immensely so far (show and second book).


----------



## RebeccaKnight

I'm a huge GRRM fan, and am loving this show so far.  All of the casting choices have been as perfect as I could hope for, especially Joffrey.  I mean, what a punchable face.  He does a great job of making me loathe him, as it should be  .

Also, in agreement over Khal Drogo....   Just, wow.


----------



## Amy Lunderman

I never read the books either, but got very interested after seeing previews for the show. I did however watch the series before reading and am glad I didn't ruin anything. The show is very good, and I look forward to seeing more of it. 

Winter is Coming.


----------



## RebeccaKnight

I've been wondering if the series was as good for folks who hadn't read the books, and I'm happy to see people enjoying it!

Good for ol' George.


----------



## Ben White

I've now watched Arya's training scene eight times and I still love it so much.










That adorable little grin! Tyrion is amazing and Jon Snow is gaining momentum but Arya is my favourite character by LOADS.


----------



## Basilius

Basilius said:


> For those keeping track at home, Game of Thrones has gotten through 17 book chapters (Chapter 17 is the third Eddard chapter) in two TV episodes. Given there's 73 chapters in the book, and 10 episodes, that's just about right.


Since I've been doing this for the first two episodes, may as well continue. The third episode covers Chapters 18-24 (Daenerys III), and some of 25 (Bran IV).

There are pieces of chapters 18 (Bran III) and 20 (Jon III) we haven't seen.

(BTW, I'm using the excellent chapter summaries at towerofthehand.com - do NOT use them if you haven't read the books, because there are spoiler's a-plenty.)


----------



## Laura Ruby

I just finished GAME OF THRONES (the book) and just ordered the second book.  I liked it quite a bit, especially after Eddard and Catelyn both left Winterfell and the action really got moving.  Before that I was having a bit of trouble with the women (as in, I didn't much like or empathize with any of them, except for perhaps Arya, which irritated me as I don't like it when the only interesting girls are, well, boys.  Or villains.  But the women got a bit more complex later on.  Sort of).  

But now I'm interested in watching the show.  Who plays Khal Drogo?

-- Laura


----------



## MichelleR

Laura Ruby said:


> I just finished GAME OF THRONES (the book) and just ordered the second book. I liked it quite a bit, especially after Eddard and Catelyn both left Winterfell and the action really got moving. Before that I was having a bit of trouble with the women (as in, I didn't much like or empathize with any of them, except for perhaps Arya, which irritated me as I don't like it when the only interesting girls are, well, boys. Or villains. But the women got a bit more complex later on. Sort of).
> 
> But now I'm interested in watching the show. Who plays Khal Drogo?
> 
> -- Laura


Jason Momoa 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0597388/

I like the women characters -- more so in the book than in the series, at least in some cases. I like book Dany slightly better. Book Dany is stronger and more spirited earlier on.

Love Arya.

I don't want to talk about Sansa.


----------



## Tris

MichelleR said:


> Jason Momoa
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0597388/
> 
> I like the women characters -- more so in the book than in the series, at least in some cases. I like book Dany slightly better. Book Dany is stronger and more spirited earlier on.
> 
> Love Arya.
> 
> I don't want to talk about Sansa.


I like Jason Momoa since I first saw him on Stargate: Atlantis. I was surprised with his recent jobs with "Game of Thrones" and "Conan"...

I am beginning to get that nearly EVERYONE loves Arya?

When ever I hear or read "Sansa" I keep thinking of that line in all of the previews (I don't have HBO and waiting for DVD) when she says "oh please, oh please, it's all I ever wanted..." in regards to her wanting to marry Joffrey. That line just doesn't work...

Tris


----------



## Laura Ruby

MichelleR said:


> Jason Momoa
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0597388/
> 
> I like the women characters -- more so in the book than in the series, at least in some cases. I like book Dany slightly better. Book Dany is stronger and more spirited earlier on.
> 
> Love Arya.
> 
> I don't want to talk about Sansa.


Never heard of Momoa, but I looked at the photos. Um, wow. I caught part of the show last night and if there were any Drogo scenes, I didn't see them. Saw Dany though. Not sure I buy that actress in the role. Felt off to me. I read that Tamzin Merchant was originally cast in the role, and I think she would have been better.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1708957/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamzin_Merchant

Though Sansa's DEEPLY STUPID AND IRRITATING in the first book, I do like the actress who portrays her in the show.

-- Laura


----------



## MichelleR

I had read about Tamzin Merchant being cast originally. I was sorta glad the part was recast, but only because TM's portrayal of Catherine Parr on The Tudors was still so stuck in my head and that was my only experience with the actress. She was great in that part and probably talented enough to be great in THIS part, but I have to say I associate her with the giggly little trashy 5th wife o' Henry.


----------



## mooshie78

Tris said:


> When ever I hear or read "Sansa" I keep thinking of that line in all of the previews (I don't have HBO and waiting for DVD) when she says "oh please, oh please, it's all I ever wanted..." in regards to her wanting to marry Joffrey. That line just doesn't work...


To be fair, I think it was more a life at court that she always dreamed of that was behind that sentiment more so than wanting to marry Joffrey specifically.


----------



## malligator

I'm enjoying the show. The production value is amazing. Much better than the Starz production of Pillars of the Earth. The only glaring difference I can see is that all of the characters are older than they are in the book...Robb and Dany, sepcifically.


----------



## Ben White

Far out, THAT bit in the jousting scene!  I was like this for the whole thing:

/(OoO)\


----------



## Basilius

Basilius said:


> Since I've been doing this for the first two episodes, may as well continue. The third episode covers Chapters 18-24 (Daenerys III), and some of 25 (Bran IV).


And episode four takes us into chapter 30. (Sansa II).

As I told my wife Sunday night, for the first three episodes or so, they've been loading the excrement into the catapults. In episode four, they've started turning on the fans.


----------



## malligator

Basilius said:


> And episode four takes us into chapter 30. (Sansa II).
> 
> As I told my wife Sunday night, for the first three episodes or so, they've been loading the excrement into the catapults. In episode four, they've started turning on the fans.


That's what I told my wife and brother in law. They've enjoyed the series, but have been wondering about the lack of real action. I told them that


Spoiler



once Cat and Tyrion cross paths


 it's on like Donkey Kong.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

Still loving it. It's rather fun just to sit back and enjoy watching these characters interact, and the gears of the story slowly turn. They're all done so well, so accurately, that it's just a joy.


----------



## JRTomlin

I just can't wait for the reaction of people when the action hits. I remember very well how I reacted.


----------



## Neekeebee

Ben White said:


> I've now watched Arya's training scene eight times and I still love it so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That adorable little grin! Tyrion is amazing and Jon Snow is gaining momentum but Arya is my favourite character by LOADS.


Me too! Well, I haven't watched it 8x, but the Syrio scene is by far my favorite so far. Tyrion is wonderful, too.

N


----------



## JRTomlin

It takes a while for Jon to mature. He starts a bit whiny although you can see why. Arya is great. I am SO impressed.


----------



## DYB

I finished the book of "Game of Thrones" this morning. It took me a long time because I kept putting it down out of dread of a certain event. Those who read it know what I mean. I must say I liked how Martin wrote that scene. I hope the HBO series will be as subtle as Martin's description, which describes the _sounds _of it, not the visuals. Very interesting approach, and a lot less traumatizing than I thought it would be. Although I suspect those who are not expecting it might fall off their couches.

Someone mentioned that some of the characters are a bit older in the miniseries than in the book, particularly Robb and Danny. (Ditto Jon, who should be same age as Robb.) I certain understand why Danny had to be older than in the books. I think she's 13 in the book. There is no way to portray a 13 year old in sexual situations, and the series if fairly graphic in that regard. Incidentally, I really like the actress who plays Danny. She's visually striking and vulnerable. I can't wait until she starts kicking butt!


----------



## crimescribe

I've been watching it since it debuted a month ago and think it's really a brilliant adaptation. Martin should be tickled to death that his series has been done so well on the small screen, since many authors' work don't fare as well on television or film.


----------



## Ben White

JRTomlin said:


> It takes a while for Jon to mature. He starts a bit whiny although you can see why. Arya is great. I am SO impressed.


From the perspective of someone who hasn't read the books (and so only know what the TV series has shown), I'd say that so far Jon Snow is an excellent example of how to do an 'angsty' character right. He has genuine problems and acts decisively to try to deal with them. He's made firm choices and been shown to have worked hard, so as a viewer I'm on his side, rather than thinking, "Oh, grow up and stop whinging!". Of course, his close relationship with Arya helps 

Also, I've seen quite a few comments from fans of the books like, "They're leaving so much out, people who haven't read the books are missing so much!". Like I said, I haven't read the books, and so (literally!) I don't know what I'm missing. What I can say is that I don't _feel_ like I'm missing anything, there hasn't been anything in the series so far that's made me think, "Hang on, what happened there? Who's he? Where did they come from?". It's all internally consistent and if they've left things out or made changes, it seems to be for the better. I think what people forget is that this is a TV show, not a book, and so in terms of structure and pacing it's an entirely different beast. It's not a book and it's not trying to be a book, which is part of the reason it's succeeding so very, very well. (Also the casting is superb.)


----------



## DYB

Ben White said:


> From the perspective of someone who hasn't read the books (and so only know what the TV series has shown), I'd say that so far Jon Snow is an excellent example of how to do an 'angsty' character right. He has genuine problems and acts decisively to try to deal with them. He's made firm choices and been shown to have worked hard, so as a viewer I'm on his side, rather than thinking, "Oh, grow up and stop whinging!". Of course, his close relationship with Arya helps


Jon is my favorite character in the series. Arya is a close second. I actually don't quite understand why people think he was a whiner in the books. I never got that sense from him at all. I thought he dealt with, for example, Caitlin's nastiness towards him (her biggest character flaw) a lot better than I would have. After he came to say goodbye to Bran in the book she says to him "I wish this had been you." And then he goes on to say to Robb that his (Robb's) mother was "kind." That's quite a noble thing to say. I don't know how I'll get through the 4th book since he's not in it at all!


----------



## Cristian YoungMiller

Episode 4 and I'm really into the show myself.


----------



## David M. Baum

DYB said:


> Jon is my favorite character in the series. Arya is a close second. I actually don't quite understand why people think he was a whiner in the books. I never got that sense from him at all.


 I'm with you. He didn't strike me as a whiner either.


----------



## mooshie78

Yeah, I never got a sense of Jon as a whiner either.  The only of the Starks that was a whiner really was Sansa in the first couple of books.


----------



## David M. Baum

mooshie78 said:


> Yeah, I never got a sense of Jon as a whiner either. The only of the Starks that was a whiner really was Sansa in the first couple of books.


 I'm really curious to see the development of Sansa in the next book. She's a great example of GRRM's ability to let a character grow, adapt and be influenced by the developments in the story.


----------



## mooshie78

David M. Baum said:


> I'm really curious to see the development of Sansa in the next book. She's a great example of GRRM's ability to let a character grow, adapt and be influenced by the developments in the story.


She may not be in book 5 much, if at all. Apparently when he decided to split book 4 into two books he decided to make Book 4 focus on one set of characters, and book 5 on another set rather than jumping back and forth between all of them in both books.


----------



## JRTomlin

Ben White said:


> From the perspective of someone who hasn't read the books (and so only know what the TV series has shown), I'd say that so far Jon Snow is an excellent example of how to do an 'angsty' character right. He has genuine problems and acts decisively to try to deal with them. He's made firm choices and been shown to have worked hard, so as a viewer I'm on his side, rather than thinking, "Oh, grow up and stop whinging!". Of course, his close relationship with Arya helps
> 
> Also, I've seen quite a few comments from fans of the books like, "They're leaving so much out, people who haven't read the books are missing so much!". Like I said, I haven't read the books, and so (literally!) I don't know what I'm missing. What I can say is that I don't _feel_ like I'm missing anything, there hasn't been anything in the series so far that's made me think, "Hang on, what happened there? Who's he? Where did they come from?". It's all internally consistent and if they've left things out or made changes, it seems to be for the better. I think what people forget is that this is a TV show, not a book, and so in terms of structure and pacing it's an entirely different beast. It's not a book and it's not trying to be a book, which is part of the reason it's succeeding so very, very well. (Also the casting is superb.)


The casting is fantastic. And you're right, imo, about why people don't get impatient with Jon. He is a bit whinier in the book than in the TV show simply because his whining is internal and you really can't put that into a TV show. 

But it's all perfectly understandable. He has had a rough time and deals with it rather than JUST sitting back and whining, so you never feel that impatient with it or I didn't anyway. Most readers really love Jon.

The casting is fantabulous!


----------



## DYB

David M. Baum said:


> I'm really curious to see the development of Sansa in the next book. She's a great example of GRRM's ability to let a character grow, adapt and be influenced by the developments in the story.


You saw the beginnings of "spunk" from Sansa even in the 1st book, after...the horrible event. She tells Joffrey off a couple of times, knowing the consequences would be unpleasant. I am also anxious to see how she continues to grow.


----------



## JRTomlin

DYB said:


> You saw the beginnings of "spunk" from Sansa even in the 1st book, after...the horrible event. She tells Joffrey off a couple of times, knowing the consequences would be unpleasant. I am also anxious to see how she continues to grow.


*cough* Nice of her to show spunk after


Spoiler



betraying her father to the queen


. (GRRM hasn't convinced me to like Sansa although I admit that she grows, but grows out of being a self-centered brat? Not imo)


----------



## Ben White

*BREAKING NEWS*: Varys/Littlefinger _almost_ usurps Arya's water-dance lesson for 'best scene of the show so far'. I got all shivery watching it, so much so that I actually went and found out Varys's name rather than continuing to refer to him as 'baldy advisor guy'.

*IN OTHER NEWS*: Episode Five the best yet, even if you're only going by 'number of decapitations'.

*ALSO*: TYRION SHIELD STOMP _yes_.

*AND IN CLOSING*: Anyone who calls this show 'slow' after that episode is _maaaaaad_.


----------



## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish

So what you're saying, Ben, is that you enjoyed it?


----------



## Ben White

Half-Orc said:


> So what you're saying, Ben, is that you enjoyed it?


What I'm saying is that SEVEN DAYS IS SO LONG TO WAIT.


----------



## M.S. Verish

Not seeing episode 5 is killing us!   We have to watch the show at someone else's house. GYYYAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!


----------



## Ben White

Also, I just have to share this:

Tyrion slaps Joffrey FOREVER


----------



## MichelleR

Ben White said:


> Also, I just have to share this:
> 
> Tyrion slaps Joffrey FOREVER


And yet it's still not enough.


----------



## JRTomlin

Ben White said:


> Also, I just have to share this:
> 
> Tyrion slaps Joffrey FOREVER


That is GREAT! LOL


----------



## Ben White

JRTomlin said:


> That is GREAT! LOL


I've had it tabbed in my browser all day, I keep going back to it. "Yep, still slapping the little git, well done, Tyrion, keep up the good work, you're doing a _fantastic_ job." And then go back to what I was doing, content that all is right in the world


----------



## Miriam Minger

Not enough air time for Khal Drogo lately, so hope that changes in the next episode of the HBO Series.  

Miriam Minger


----------



## JoeMitchell

I haven't read the books yet, but I'm really enjoying the TV series immensely.  I couldn't wait to see episode 5, and now I'm dying to see the next one.  I don't think I'll be able to resist reading the books much longer.  I need to know what happens next.


----------



## DYB

JoeMitchell said:


> I haven't read the books yet, but I'm really enjoying the TV series immensely. I couldn't wait to see episode 5, and now I'm dying to see the next one. I don't think I'll be able to resist reading the books much longer. I need to know what happens next.


Trust me, you don't want to know what happens next! I suspect that the final episode will leave you speechless - and very angry.


----------



## Tris

Why not? I am just barely ahead of the last episode (from what I can gather from previews), and I haven't found anything disturbing. Since the series is 10 episodes long, I think everyone following the series still has a bit to go?

Perhaps I have to read more, I had to take a break to read the new releases I had on hold for MONTHS at the library first. So now I'm in a rush to catch up. 

FYI: I am tad more than 53% into the book where I just ended Jon Snow's chapter:


Spoiler



Jon has spoke with Maester Aemon and Chett about Sam who is missing


, and now at the beginning of Tyrion's chapter.

Is it just me or is anyone else who read the book a tad creeped out when:


Spoiler



the little kid, Catelyn's nephew, says he wants to see Tyrion fly (repeatedly)


?

Tris


----------



## Chris Strange

Ben White said:


> Also, I just have to share this:
> 
> Tyrion slaps Joffrey FOREVER


Cannot...stop...watching!


----------



## MichelleR




----------



## Monique

Just finished the book and while I really enjoyed most of it, there were some very important things that left me feeling "meh". I did not like the way some of the big moments were handled. I'm honestly feeling a little ambivalent about the next book.


----------



## Stephen T. Harper

Thanks for the gif of the alloyed head scene.  Once we realized what was about to happen my wife made me fast forward through the last 30 seconds.  So... is he dead?  Or does he come back as a kind of James Bond villain?  

I've been loving the series.  But I must say that this last episode had a couple of pretty illogical actions from major characters.  The first was Stark's willingness to burn every bridge and basically start a war over some villager's vague testimony of crimes committed by a large man who could kill a horse with one stroke... "it could only be "the Mountain!"  Really? only that one guy?  You're sure?  You don't need any more evidence to confiscate all of his property and go to war?

And the Dragon's weird hissy fit that got him turned into C-3P0 at the end was just kind of... well what exactly did he think was going to happen?  Clearly he had been drinking.  But not enough to be that out of it.  

I do love the show though.  Peter Dinklage is awesome.


----------



## Ben White

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Thanks for the gif of the alloyed head scene. Once we realized what was about to happen my wife made me fast forward through the last 30 seconds. So... is he dead? Or does he come back as a kind of James Bond villain?
> 
> I've been loving the series. But I must say that this last episode had a couple of pretty illogical actions from major characters. The first was Stark's willingness to burn every bridge and basically start a war over some villager's vague testimony of crimes committed by a large man who could kill a horse with one stroke... "it could only be "the Mountain!" Really? only that one guy? You're sure? You don't need any more evidence to confiscate all of his property and go to war?
> 
> And the Dragon's weird hissy fit that got him turned into C-3P0 at the end was just kind of... well what exactly did he think was going to happen? Clearly he had been drinking. But not enough to be that out of it.
> 
> I do love the show though. Peter Dinklage is awesome.


I agree, that episode wasn't as sharply written as those previous. Still, a return to form with the most recent ep, despite the complete lack of Tyrion and Arya and the slightly rushed Jon Snow/Sam scenes ("I DON'T GET TO BE A RANGER RAGE!" "But you might become the COMMANDER!" "But being a ranger is all I've ever wanted!" *Adorable Sam Eyes* "Oh well, steward it is!").

Charles Dance was, as ever, exceptional.

Oddly, I keep seeing people complaining about how complicated the show is. It's not, really. You just have to pay attention.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Stephen T. Harper said:


> I've never read any of "Game of Thrones," but I'm getting excited by the hype for the HBO series. Is this a must read before the show starts?
> 
> Update: 3 episodes in and I love the show. Fantastic character work. Definitely adding books to my cue.


The books are a must have, the story is so mind boggling huge and complicated that you need "reference material", same as the WOT series. Remember the first seen in the first episode, as well as the prologue in the first book? The real enemy hasn't even made a significant appearance through 4 books. It is a story within a story within a story.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Without giving up spoilers Arya, Tyrion, and John Snow are my favorite characters.


----------



## MichelleR

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Thanks for the gif of the alloyed head scene. Once we realized what was about to happen my wife made me fast forward through the last 30 seconds. So... is he dead? Or does he come back as a kind of James Bond villain?
> 
> I've been loving the series. But I must say that this last episode had a couple of pretty illogical actions from major characters. The first was Stark's willingness to burn every bridge and basically start a war over some villager's vague testimony of crimes committed by a large man who could kill a horse with one stroke... "it could only be "the Mountain!" Really? only that one guy? You're sure? You don't need any more evidence to confiscate all of his property and go to war?
> 
> And the Dragon's weird hissy fit that got him turned into C-3P0 at the end was just kind of... well what exactly did he think was going to happen? Clearly he had been drinking. But not enough to be that out of it.
> 
> I do love the show though. Peter Dinklage is awesome.


Golden Skull? The Lannisters probably own that name.

Well, there was all sorts of evidence that was good enough for that time that this was directed at Catelyn for taking Tyrion Lannister, the Mountain is a distinctive guy -- and he really just wanted an excuse to get to request the presence of Tywin, probably in hopes of protecting his wife. Justice is pretty much one of the guiding principled of Ned's life -- and honor.

The book made a better case for how crazy Viserys was. He felt that he'd made a bargain was Khal Drogo, but no army was forthcoming. He had no respect for Dany, only to see her get most everything she ever wanted. The whole making him walk thing was particularly shameful in Dothraki culture, particularly when he was allowed to ride in the cart next day, which was reserved for the pregnant, the weak, and the elderly, and the contempt they felt must have been obvious. His drunkenness, shame, disappointment,feeling he was tricked, misogyny, sense of entitlement, and instability -- a little bit of madness seems to run in the family and I think Dany even has a streak of it -- made him do exactly the wrong thing. I don't think it occurred to him that anyone there would touch him, or that his sister would allow it.


----------



## Stephen T. Harper

MichelleR said:


> . His drunkenness, shame, disappointment,feeling he was tricked, misogyny, sense of entitlement, and instability -- a little bit of madness seems to run in the family and I think Dany even has a streak of it -- made him do exactly the wrong thing. I don't think it occurred to him that anyone there would touch him, or that his sister would allow it.


I'm sure you're right that it's all much more clear in the books. Seemed a little out of the blue on TV, but they are pressed for time.


----------



## R. M. Reed

Ok, no more spoilers. I have put this show on my Netflix queue and I will be watching just as soon as the DVDs are manufactured and Netflix gets some sets. So you can't say anything more for the next year or so.


----------



## mooshie78

Stephen T. Harper said:


> I'm sure you're right that it's all much more clear in the books. Seemed a little out of the blue on TV, but they are pressed for time.


There were more episodes of him pissing off Drogo etc., even in the show, but there was more in the book. Recall when he hit her and they made him walk (which is a huge insult in Dothraki culture to have to walk behind those on horseback).

He was just a whiny brat that viewed himself as a King and thought everyone should do what he said and no one would dare harm him.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII

Yes, indeed! Great fantasy show.  I also loved Pillars of the Earth series.


----------



## Colin Taber

Yes, Game of Thrones is coming along well. The crowning was as awesome as it was horrible.

Pillars of the Earth started out well, but increasingly lost its way. It was still good, and I'm glad I saw it, but the way things started to unravel in the last third left me a little disappointed.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Thanks for the gif of the alloyed head scene. Once we realized what was about to happen my wife made me fast forward through the last 30 seconds. So... is he dead? Or does he come back as a kind of James Bond villain?


Since you had to fast forward...yes he's dead. You missed the *thunk* when his body hit the ground. (And his burned corpse.)


----------



## Bob Mayer

Haven't read them either-- have been watching the mini-series and it's fun, but I'm not quite clear what the main storyline is.  Is it beyond the Wall?  The Drogo?  The King?  The midget?  The guy who killed the last king?  Who exactly is the antagonist?
And why are there like two versions of each book on Kindle?  I'm particularly concerned because other than George RR Martin, my books are the top selling scifi book on Kindle US and UK.  Still, good company to be in.


----------



## MichelleR

Bob Mayer said:


> Haven't read them either-- have been watching the mini-series and it's fun, but I'm not quite clear what the main storyline is. Is it beyond the Wall? The Drogo? The King? The midget? The guy who killed the last king? Who exactly is the antagonist?


The books alternate points of view and so I think it's fair to say the main storyline is all the different factions with different interests vying for or being pawns of the throne. That, I think, is the overarching thing. There is no one main character because so many have voices.

From what I see, people make their own minds up on who is a hero and who is a villain, and a lot of the characters straddle the line. Robert stole the Iron Throne, but he stole it from a mad man who was wholesale slaughtering and burning people, but then again his faction murdered most of the family too. Jaime killed the Mad King, which would seem to be a good thing, but he was meant to be the king's chief protector. Dany is largely a sympathetic character, but doesn't really flinch at her husband talking about rape and murder. Sansa is a pretty, innocent girl, but some of the things she does -- well...she gives people ample reason to hate her if they're so inclined. Catelyn made the best decision she felt she could in taking Tyrion, but all heck is breaking loose.


----------



## R. M. Reed

In the most recent book everyone is still fighting over the Iron Throne and almost no one is paying any attention to what is coming from beyond the wall. I can't really say there are any heroes. My favorites are the people who stick to some semblance of decency while they fight to survive.


----------



## Stephen T. Harper

mooshie78 said:


> There were more episodes of him pissing off Drogo etc., even in the show, but there was more in the book. Recall when he hit her and they made him walk (which is a huge insult in Dothraki culture to have to walk behind those on horseback).
> 
> He was just a whiny brat that viewed himself as a King and thought everyone should do what he said and no one would dare harm him.


Yes. I'm not saying that Drogo shouldn't have dumped molten metal on his head. And I get that the Dragon is a whiny brat. I'm just saying that that scene in particular also made him look altogether clueless. Or maybe he just had a death wish I mean... I thought Drogo was going to pout that stuff in his mouth like the Romans used to do. The Dragon got off lucky.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Yes. I'm not saying that Drogo shouldn't have dumped molten metal on his head. And I get that the Dragon is a whiny brat. I'm just saying that that scene in particular also made him look altogether clueless. Or maybe he just had a death wish I mean... I thought Drogo was going to pout that stuff in his mouth like the Romans used to do. The Dragon got off lucky.





Spoiler



The Targaryens have a high occurrence rate for insanity, and Viserys III Targaryen was as mad as a hatter. Viserys' sister and brother seemed to be fairly sane but his father was known as the mad king before the Kingslayer slayed him.


----------



## Ben White

Bob Mayer said:


> Haven't read them either-- have been watching the mini-series and it's fun, but I'm not quite clear what the main storyline is. Is it beyond the Wall? The Drogo? The King? The midget? The guy who killed the last king? Who exactly is the antagonist?
> And why are there like two versions of each book on Kindle? I'm particularly concerned because other than George RR Martin, my books are the top selling scifi book on Kindle US and UK. Still, good company to be in.


If you're asking who the antagonist is in a series like this, you're not watching it right  Also, why on earth is Game of Thrones in the science fiction section?


----------



## DYB

I think Viserys never for a second thought that HE, the rightful King, the Dragon, would ever be harmed by someone like Drogo.  He holds Drogo and his armies in great contempt.  Aside from the fact that he's just plain crazy, remember he is the son of a King, raised and pampered by subjects, even if in exile; he expects to rule everyone, he expects everyone to bow to him.  I don't think his actions are unreasonable at all.  Clearly furious that Drogo has not yet sent his army to reclaim Viserys' throne - which was the bargain he made when he sold Dany to Drogo - he threw a tamper tantrum, like royalty would do.

There is no one main character.  There are many and you can pick and choose which are your favorites.  Jon and Arya are mine.  Ned too, of course, but his - let's be honest - stupidity in the name of honor and righteousness kind of bugged me in the end.  A flawed hero for sure!  But certainly the moral center of it all.


----------



## JRTomlin

Most of us pick out the characters to love or hate, depending on our own attitudes and beliefs. SoIaF is not so simplistic as to have one antagonist. That isn't the way it is in life and it isn't the way it is in the series. 

I loath Jaime with SUCH a passion and Sansa. Love Jon and Arya. Ned. You have to love Ned but WHY did he give his older daughter a chance to


Spoiler



betray him


?


----------



## MichelleR

JRTomlin said:


> You have to love Ned but WHY did he give his older daughter a chance to
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> betray him
> 
> 
> ?





Spoiler



I don't think he knew her that well, she was clearly the child he understood the least. And I think that crush on Joffrey or not, I didn't think she would do something that dumb? ... disloyal? I mean, Arya didn't throw him under the proverbial bus so that she could continue her "dancing lessions."


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

JRTomlin said:


> Most of us pick out the characters to love or hate, depending on our own attitudes and beliefs. SoIaF is not so simplistic as to have one antagonist. That isn't the way it is in life and it isn't the way it is in the series.
> 
> I loath Jaime with SUCH a passion and Sansa. Love Jon and Arya.


And as it is in life, people change. I have come to like Jaime and Sansa as the series continues. Their situations have given them some growing pains and I believe they are becoming better for it.


----------



## David M. Baum

mom133d said:


> And as it is in life, people change. I have come to like Jaime and Sansa as the series continues. Their situations have given them some growing pains and I believe they are becoming better for it.


 I couldn't have said it better. The way GRRM managed to change my absolute loathing of Jaime to grudging admiration is in my view simply magnificent writing.


----------



## Colin Taber

David M. Baum said:


> I couldn't have said it better. The way GRRM managed to change my absolute loathing of Jaime to grudging admiration is in my view simply magnificent writing.


Yes. He does a great job of it.

I actually get to see this episode tonight. I'm looking forward to it!


----------



## Monique

David M. Baum said:


> I couldn't have said it better. The way GRRM managed to change my absolute loathing of Jaime to grudging admiration is in my view simply magnificent writing.


I'm dying to see how he pulls that off. Right now, it feels nigh on impossible, but others have said he manages it.

I'm reading Clash of Kings and am a little bored with it so far. But I'm only a quarter of the way in, so I'm assuming it picks up steam.


----------



## Ilyria Moon

Fuzzy Dunlop said:


> thought it was very faithful to the book although i dont know how anyone is really going to be able to follow whats going on without reading the books..all the actors seemed to mumble a lot


 

I'm enjoying it immensely. Just annoyed someone gave me an unrequested spoiler about my favourite character.


----------



## MichelleR

http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2011/06/02/my-new-favorite-thing-stupid-ned-stark/


----------



## DYB

MichelleR said:


> http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2011/06/02/my-new-favorite-thing-stupid-ned-stark/


  And it's all true. Ned is pretty stupid!


----------



## MichelleR

DYB said:


> And it's all true. Ned is pretty stupid!


I'm a sucker for honor and so I forgive him much -- but I still get a chuckle out of those. I don't think the one about covering for his wife and taking responsibility should be there though, because what kind of respectable dude wouldn't do the same?


----------



## JRTomlin

MichelleR said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he knew her that well, she was clearly the child he understood the least. And I think that crush on Joffrey or not, I didn't think she would do something that dumb? ... disloyal? I mean, Arya didn't throw him under the proverbial bus so that she could continue her "dancing lessions."


Several books later, I still haven't forgiven her--never will.

Ned might be dumb at times. She is responsible for


Spoiler



her own father's execution


! B****.


----------



## JRTomlin

MichelleR said:


> I'm a sucker for honor and so I forgive him much -- but I still get a chuckle out of those. I don't think the one about covering for his wife and taking responsibility should be there though, because what kind of respectable dude wouldn't do the same?


Not only that but as far as Jaime was concerned (who hated Ned from the get-go) the Starks were responsible. The Starks meant meant Ned, not his wife. If Ned tried to blame someone else, it just made him look like a coward; it didn't save a fight.


----------



## DYB

Here's an interesting analysis of the most recent episode and events in The Atlantic, including a defense of the much-hated Sansa.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/06/game-of-thrones-the-sins-of-ned-stark/239949/


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

If stupid=honorable, then yes, Ned is, but I like and deeply sympathize with his brand of stupid. That means Martin's done his job to get us so invested in a character that we actually care about his fate and want to slap him for making the honorable choice, rather than the one that keeps him and family safe. Wish I could tap into writing a figure like that. Martin's also just taking from life - the good guys don't win every time.


----------



## Colin Taber

I know that over its first few episodes its ratings climbed a little - was it to 4.2 million? - does any one know what's happened since then? Is it holding its audience?

The people I'm watching it with are enjoying it, but not overly so. I think they're getting impatient for stuff to happen at The Wall


Spoiler



and we all know that's not a good sign for their enjoyment, for at least a few seasons...


----------



## JRTomlin

Referring to that article. What? People watching this actually think


Spoiler



that Jon is Ned's son? No one I know who has read the novel thinks that. Ned's sole indiscretion? Maybe one of Ned's sole lies, other than the one he tells before he... you know



Say what?!


----------



## JRTomlin

lyarde11751 said:


> If stupid=honorable, then yes, Ned is, but I like and deeply sympathize with his brand of stupid. That means Martin's done his job to get us so invested in a character that we actually care about his fate and want to slap him for making the honorable choice, rather than the one that keeps him and family safe. Wish I could tap into writing a figure like that. Martin's also just taking from life - the good guys don't win every time.


But WOULD that choice keep him and his family safe? Or the rest of the realm?

With JOFFREY as king? I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

JRTomlin said:


> But WOULD that choice keep him and his family safe? Or the rest of the realm?
> 
> With JOFFREY as king? I wouldn't bet on it.


Joffrey is definitely the six year old with a gun. But he's also his mother's tool. If she thought keeping Ned under her thumb would benefit her, she would make Joffrey do it. But the secret about him is too much, she can't risk Robert's brothers knowing it. Winter's coming, for real.


----------



## Liv James

I'm enjoying the series, too. I've liked watching Khaleesi develop into a woman with a mind of her own. It looks like she may be in for some trouble, though. 

I haven't read the books, but I probably will after this season ends. That's what I did with Trueblood ... I watched season one and then zoomed through all the books before season two started.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

JRTomlin said:


> Referring to that article. What? People watching this actually think
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> that Jon is Ned's son? No one I know who has read the novel thinks that. Ned's sole indiscretion? Maybe one of Ned's sole lies, other than the one he tells before he... you know
> 
> 
> 
> Say what?!





Spoiler



Ned NEVER said that Jon was his SON. Ned said that Jon was his BLOOD. We all have our favorite theory, the only problem with the biggest theory is that is so obvious. The biggest surprise would be to find out that Jon actually is Ned's son. Jon appears to be one of the few bastards who doesn't know who his MOTHER is, I am thinking his fathers identity is in doubt too.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

If you haven't seen Episode 7:


Spoiler



From the article linked above: "And at the episode's end, when Sansa steps forward to beg for her father's life in front of the entire royal court, it's an act of courage as genuine and meaningful as Robb's declaration of war on the Lannisters." What? Did they miss Cersei encouraging Sansa to come forward? I wouldn't call it courage in that, just more being the Lannister's pawn.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

mom133d said:


> If you haven't seen Episode 7:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> From the article linked above: "And at the episode's end, when Sansa steps forward to beg for her father's life in front of the entire royal court, it's an act of courage as genuine and meaningful as Robb's declaration of war on the Lannisters." What? Did they miss Cersei encouraging Sansa to come forward? I wouldn't call it courage in that, just more being the Lannister's pawn.





Spoiler



Sansa grows in the future books, I think she is going to be pivotal at a later stage. Her character strikes me as naive, not conniving. She is the ultimate pawn but by book four she seems to be developing some sense. The fact that she is caring for someone more naive and spoiled than she previously was seems to be helping

After all, G.M.M.R has killed off most of the prospective hero's, blinded them, burned them or left them hanging from a tree. Somebody is going to have to step up to the plate or poor Jon Snow and Danerys are going have to do all of the grunt work themselves.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

This has to be one of the most spoiler ridden threads ever.


----------



## Monique

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> This has to be one of the most spoiler ridden threads ever.


True.

And, all spoilers are not equal.

Maybe it would be helpful if people would break spoilers into categories. Like "episode 7", tv series season one, book one, book three, etc.

I might be okay with an episode spoiler or want to see what someone says about book one, but not book three or four.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Monique said:


> True.
> 
> And, all spoilers are not equal.
> 
> Maybe it would be helpful if people would break spoilers into categories. Like "episode 7", tv series season one, book one, book three, etc.
> 
> I might be okay with an episode spoiler or want to see what someone says about book one, but not book three or four.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Makes sense but there is so much foreshadowing in this story that almost any discussion can turn into a spoiler.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

@Dolorous Edd Tollett: I agree with your spoiler


----------



## Tara Maya

We just got HBO, so I've started watching it. Unfortunately, I've missed the first 6 episodes!


----------



## JRTomlin

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ned NEVER said that Jon was his SON. Ned said that Jon was his BLOOD. We all have our favorite theory, the only problem with the biggest theory is that is so obvious. The biggest surprise would be to find out that Jon actually is Ned's son. Jon appears to be one of the few bastards who doesn't know who his MOTHER is, I am thinking his fathers identity is in doubt too.


You are mistaken.


Spoiler



Ned told everyone, including Jon, that Jon was his son. His wife wouldn't have hated Jon if she had thought he was only Ned's "blood" and all the children refer to him as their brother. He calls Ned his father.


 It would certainly be a shock if it turned out to be the truth. Is the common opinion too easy an explanation? Possibly. I suspect it is the correct one but only Martin knows the truth. 



Spoiler



I think his father's identity is the BIG question. IMO Ned is the least likely candidate. But the fact that the article in question didn't even question his parentage meant that the writer is totally ignorant about the novels and storyline.


----------



## JRTomlin

Monique said:


> True.
> 
> And, all spoilers are not equal.
> 
> Maybe it would be helpful if people would break spoilers into categories. Like "episode 7", tv series season one, book one, book three, etc.
> 
> I might be okay with an episode spoiler or want to see what someone says about book one, but not book three or four.
> 
> Does that make sense?


I'm afraid it doesn't. The plot simply isn't divided up like that, all nice and neat. The spoilers I have traded in a couple of posts cover a subject that is relevant to every book. And I'm not sure what I've marked as a spoiler is really a spoiler since no one but Martin knows the answer, but I don't want to bring up speculation before people have figured out for themselves that there is a question about something.


----------



## DYB

Tara Maya said:


> We just got HBO, so I've started watching it. Unfortunately, I've missed the first 6 episodes!


Doesn't HBO re-run things 24/7? I'm sure you can catch all the other episodes!


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

If your cable company "subscribes" you can catch up via HBO Go. Doesn't sound like all cable companies are providing this service.


----------



## DYB

Okay, people who have not read the books...but are watching the series...have nothing to say about the most recent episode    Just seeing my friends' facebook status updates ("speechless," "stunned," "they did WHAT?" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!") made me think there would be a big reaction in this thread!


----------



## Ben White

I haven't read the books, but felt this outcome was fairly inevitable ever since Ned's decision in Ep 7.  So I wasn't really shocked, but the way it happened was pretty awful.


----------



## Colin Taber

With all the spoilers being slipped in, perhaps we've scared the unread off?


----------



## Ben White

I have to admit, if I even catch a glimpse of a black box in this thread I avert my eyes forthwith


----------



## Ilyria Moon

*SPOILER*



Spoiler



Well, my two favourite characters are dead - nay, three, I quite enjoyed watching the king, too. It had better be worth watching the rest of the series! Without Khal Drogo and the Ned Stark, the testosterone levels have halved. Ned's older child is so annoying and that little king wants a slap upside the head. I guess that's what happens with inbreeding. I'm just rooting for Daenerys now. I havent read the books yet, but I think I'll enjoy them.


----------



## DYB

ilyria_moon said:


> *SPOILER*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my two favourite characters are dead - nay, three, I quite enjoyed watching the king, too. It had better be worth watching the rest of the series! Without Khal Drogo and the Ned Stark, the testosterone levels have halved. Ned's older child is so annoying and that little king wants a slap upside the head. I guess that's what happens with inbreeding. I'm just rooting for Daenerys now. I havent read the books yet, but I think I'll enjoy them.


 

Yes, Daenerys does something amazing at the end of Book 1/Season 1. So stay tuned for that! By "oldest" do you mean Robb or Jon? I forget who is the oldest... I like both, though Jon is one of my two favorite characters (Arya being the other.) And Joffrey - he needs a spanking! There is that video of Tyrion slapping him on a loop.


----------



## MichelleR

ilyria_moon said:


> *SPOILER*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my two favourite characters are dead - nay, three, I quite enjoyed watching the king, too. It had better be worth watching the rest of the series! Without Khal Drogo and the Ned Stark, the testosterone levels have halved. Ned's older child is so annoying and that little king wants a slap upside the head. I guess that's what happens with inbreeding. I'm just rooting for Daenerys now. I havent read the books yet, but I think I'll enjoy them.


Oh, I like all the kids except for Sansa. I'm unsure which one you don't like. The last scene this season should be great! I think the show is both lucky and unlucky in casting so well, because the people who die have too much charisma.


----------



## DYB

Poor Sansa! 

Sean Bean has been stabbed! Though he's apparently doing ok.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/


----------



## MichelleR

DYB said:


> Poor Sansa!
> 
> Sean Bean has been stabbed!


That Joffrey!! Total overkill. ::ahem::


----------



## Ilyria Moon

MichelleR said:


> Oh, I like all the kids except for Sansa. I'm unsure which one you don't like. The last scene this season should be great! I think the show is both lucky and unlucky in casting so well, because the people who die have too much charisma.


Agreed! They had far too much charisma to die. Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing the season finale. Sansa needs a good shake and some chores. Or perhaps her sister should run her through with her sword. I like Arya. Joffrey just needs to be drowned. I like Daenerys, too. Viserys was annoying beyond belief!


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

DYB said:


> Poor Sansa!
> 
> Sean Bean has been stabbed! Though he's apparently doing ok.
> 
> http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43395782/ns/today-entertainment/


Awesome, orders another drink and lets the bartender stitch him up, not really Ned Stark like but at least he was OK.



Spoiler



Has to be the roughest weekend ever, lose your head FOLLOWED by a some dolt punching you in the eye and stabbing you in the arm


----------



## JRTomlin

Oh, don't worry. There is still plenty of testosterone around in the next one. For one thing Jon's testosterone is definitely ramping up. I can't imagine who would dislike Ned's older children whether Jon or Robb although there does come a point later when slapping Robb was severely needed. Can't discuss THAT. But he's a good kid in a more than trying situation. And Jon... Well, he's a lot of people's favorite character along with Ayla.

Poor Ned. 

Believe me, there is plenty of action in the next novel for a couple of seasons. Squeezing it into one should be interesting.


----------



## JRTomlin

DYB said:


> Okay, people who have not read the books...but are watching the series...have nothing to say about the most recent episode  Just seeing my friends' facebook status updates ("speechless," "stunned," "they did WHAT?" "NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!") made me think there would be a big reaction in this thread!


That was my reaction when I read the book. Then my next reaction was that it was a fake and they didn't REALLY do that. But I didn't know GRR Martin so well then.


----------



## Colin Taber

I'm looking forward to the last episode. 

It will be good to have seen the series and be able to then digest it. GoT hasn't been perfect, but nonetheless enjoyable.


----------



## Miriam Minger

I was shocked and bummed about Ned--and I hope we haven't seen the last of Khal Drogo.  

I'm riveted by the HBO series, what can I say.

Miriam Minger


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Miriam Minger said:


> I was shocked and bummed about Ned--and I hope we haven't seen the last of Khal Drogo.
> 
> I'm riveted by the HBO series, what can I say.
> 
> Miriam Minger


Don't get too attached to any one character, that's all I can say.


----------



## buyonamazon

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Don't get too attached to any one character, that's all I can say.


SHOW= AWESOME. Funny that this is in a reading forum&#8230;lol


----------



## JRTomlin

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Don't get too attached to any one character, that's all I can say.


Now don't scare them. Several favorite characters aren't dead -- yet.


----------



## MichelleR

JRTomlin said:


> Now don't scare them. Several favorite characters aren't dead -- yet.


No, but as established, there are worse things than death. 

Okay, people, tell me that that wasn't really awesome?


----------



## JRTomlin

MichelleR said:


> No, but as established, there are worse things than death.
> 
> Okay, people, tell me that that wasn't really awesome?


Awesomely awesome!


----------



## RebeccaKnight

What did everyone think of the finale last night?  

When the credits rolled, I had chills.  SO excited for the next season/book!


----------



## JRTomlin

RebeccaKnight said:


> What did everyone think of the finale last night?
> 
> When the credits rolled, I had chills. SO excited for the next season/book!


It was fantastic! I loved what they did with it.


----------



## DYB

An interesting interview with Sean Bean. The subject of Jon's parentage comes up and is it me or does Bean basically confirm that


Spoiler



Ned was not Jon's father?


 I wonder if he got that from Martin himself.

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html


----------



## padowd

I also loved it as well as my husband. I think this is one of the best series out right now and I can't wait for the second season to start. I have the first book on my Kindle and it is next on my list to read. I wish the set of the four ebooks would go on sale for $19.95 like the boxed set of paperbacks. I have got so many people interested in these books just talking about the tv series. I am thinking about buying a few of these box sets as Christmas presents for some people I work with who loves to read these kinds of books. At $19.95 for a 4 box set that is a great price.


----------



## jason10mm

I'm not sure much will come from Jon's parentage. It is not like there are many (any?) folks around at this point that could confirm it. He is described as being younger than Robb, so that certainly rules out him being a bastard of Neds older brother, Brandon. I figure Ned MIGHT hide this fact in case Jon ever tried to take Winterfell, being the son of the elder Stark, from Robb. Jon being Lyanna's son seems equally unlikely, as how could this have been kept a secret? I kinda like the idea that Jon's mother is the Sword of the Dawn's sister, but again, why would he have gone with Ned and why would he conceal it? I think, in the end, Jon is probably from Ned's little maid laison hinted at by Robert, and is therefore it is basically meaningless. I feel Martin left it open-ended because he knows what sort of things get latched onto by fans.

The only reason it would be important might be if having Targaryen blood somehow endowed him with some sort of abilities, but I can't see this happeneing. Him having Stark blood, which he plainly does, is far more critical, especially if the direwolf connection is related to that and not just because the Starks still worship the old gods.

Still, should Jon and Danaerys ever have a showdown perhaps all will be revealed then  Though if Sean knows something it is because MARTIN knows something, which means it is probably included in the pages of ADwD. 25 days to go!


----------



## MichelleR

jason10mm said:


> The only reason it would be important might be if having Targaryen blood somehow endowed him with some sort of abilities, but I can't see this happeneing. Him having Stark blood, which he plainly does, is far more critical, especially if the direwolf connection is related to that and not just because the Starks still worship the old gods.


Right now there is a king of the north and people are vying for the iron throne. Jon, if he had Targaryen blood, would be the one person who had a claim to both and could perhaps reunited the various factions. I don't KNOW this, I just read a lot of books about time periods where this stuff matters.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

jason10mm said:


> Jon being Lyanna's son seems equally unlikely, as how could this have been kept a secret?


Because she was "kidnapped" (according to Robert) and Robert started a war to get her back. We don't know if she was truely kidnapped or if she went with Ryannar willingly, (Ryannar did give Lyanna the blue roses rather than his wife) and we don't how the time span. Possibly 9 months  We are also told that Ned found Lyanna in "a bed of blood", which could have been from childbirth and she dies after begging Ned to "Promise me". What exactly did Ned promise? We'll never know.


----------



## DYB

mom133d said:


> What exactly did Ned promise? We'll never know.


We might! Maybe Martin will do a flashback. Maybe somebody eavesdropped!


----------



## Debra Purdy Kong

We watched the latest episode last night and were disappointed that it was the season finale! I'm hoping there's a season two, and yeah, it took a while to start remembering all the names and relationships, but each week things became a little clearer and the storyline more intense. Really entertaining!


----------



## DYB

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> We watched the latest episode last night and were disappointed that it was the season finale! I'm hoping there's a season two, and yeah, it took a while to start remembering all the names and relationships, but each week things became a little clearer and the storyline more intense. Really entertaining!


HBO did renew the series for Season 2, which hasn't even started production yet. It is scheduled to premiere Spring of 2012.


----------



## RebeccaKnight

Oh, man!    A whole year of waiting?  

Worth it, though.


----------



## M.S. Verish

If the series makes it all the way to "A Feast for Crows" and "A Dance with Dragons", I wonder if they will make the storylines simultaneous so we don't get stuck with only the book four characters.


----------



## DYB

M.S. Verish said:


> If the series makes it all the way to "A Feast for Crows" and "A Dance with Dragons", I wonder if they will make the storylines simultaneous so we don't get stuck with only the book four characters.


I was thinking that too. Martin has worked in television, so he should understand the television audience would not be as patient as his readers to not have their favorite characters.


----------



## R. M. Reed

With season one wrapped, HBO is busy making DVDs so I can see this, right? Please?


----------



## JimJ

I've just started reading A Game of Thrones after watching the series, which I think has become my favorite series on TV right now (maybe Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy will reclaim that spot when they come back later this year). I was really not expecting to like it at all. I'm not a huge fan of fantasy and I thought all the characters and kingdoms would confuse me, and it did take a few episodes for me to totally grasp who everyone was. Still, the story grabbed me from the first episode and I was hooked from the start.

Here's something I found on the Game of Thrones FB page and it cracks me up every time I watch it. According to the comments, Sean Bean has seen it and thought it was hilarious. Warning though, it contains very strong language, to say the least (and, obviously, episode 9 spoilers):


----------



## jason10mm

R. Reed said:


> With season one wrapped, HBO is busy making DVDs so I can see this, right? Please?


Historically HBO will drop the DVD/BR set a few weeks before the premier of the next season. Expect to pay around 60-90 bones for it though (or would those be silver stags?). My wife and I do a LOTR weekend every year, now we will be doing LOTR and GoT weekends (kinda sad to think that a movie trilogy is longer than an entire SEASON of a TV show . Head over to www.innatthecrossroads.wordpress.com for ASOIAF inspired food 

****Because she was "kidnapped" (according to Robert) and Robert started a war to get her back. We don't know if she was truely kidnapped or if she went with Ryannar willingly, (Ryannar did give Lyanna the blue roses rather than his wife) and we don't how the time span. Possibly 9 months We are also told that Ned found Lyanna in "a bed of blood", which could have been from childbirth and she dies after begging Ned to "Promise me". What exactly did Ned promise? We'll never know.******

You know, I didn't think of that wording in that way. But isn't Robert's unending hatred of the Targaryens motivated by Lyanna's death? Is Ned hiding Jon to keep him from being killed by Robert? They do say LYanna looks a lot like Arya who in turn is the most "Stark-like" alongside Jon and Ned. I just don't think Ned would have kept it from Catelyn, especially seeing how much animosity she bears towards him. If she knew he was actually Lyanna's son I think she would have kept the secret and treated him much better. Hmmm, all speculation at this point, I wonder if there is ana ncient midwife out there, or perhaps Howland Reed.....


----------



## JimJ

jason10mm said:


> Historically HBO will drop the DVD/BR set a few weeks before the premier of the next season. Expect to pay around 60-90 bones for it though (or would those be silver stags?).


I doubt it'll be that high. HBO's prices aren't as bad as they used to be. The True Blood season 3 set that just came out is 31.99 for DVD and 39.99 for blu. Treme season 1 is a little higher. 38.99 and 55.99 for DVD and blu respectively. Those are Amazon prices BTW. I wouldn't expect it to be more than 40 for DVD and 60 for blu.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

jason10mm said:


> Historically HBO will drop the DVD/BR set a few weeks before the premier of the next season. Expect to pay around 60-90 bones for it though (or would those be silver stags?). My wife and I do a LOTR weekend every year, now we will be doing LOTR and GoT weekends (kinda sad to think that a movie trilogy is longer than an entire SEASON of a TV show . Head over to www.innatthecrossroads.wordpress.com for ASOIAF inspired food


I'm really hoping that since GoT was 10 episodes we're not looking at a $60 set. (How many episodes are in a season of True Blood?)



> ****Because she was "kidnapped" (according to Robert) and Robert started a war to get her back. We don't know if she was truely kidnapped or if she went with Ryannar willingly, (Ryannar did give Lyanna the blue roses rather than his wife) and we don't how the time span. Possibly 9 months We are also told that Ned found Lyanna in "a bed of blood", which could have been from childbirth and she dies after begging Ned to "Promise me". What exactly did Ned promise? We'll never know.******
> 
> You know, I didn't think of that wording in that way. But isn't Robert's unending hatred of the Targaryens motivated by Lyanna's death? Is Ned hiding Jon to keep him from being killed by Robert? They do say LYanna looks a lot like Arya who in turn is the most "Stark-like" alongside Jon and Ned. I just don't think Ned would have kept it from Catelyn, especially seeing how much animosity she bears towards him. If she knew he was actually Lyanna's son I think she would have kept the secret and treated him much better. Hmmm, all speculation at this point, I wonder if there is ana ncient midwife out there, or perhaps Howland Reed.....


Honestly, I hadn't thought of the wording either until I read the theory on another site. But it rings true. I had put the dots together regarding Lyanna-Arya-Jon but I hadn't made that leap for Jon's parents. And never would have guessed a Targaryen. But the going theory is yes, Ned was hiding Jon from Robert. And I competely agree about Cat, I think if she knew, she'd treat him better. But maybe society would question her if she treated a bastard differently. Don't they say somewhere that most men don't bring their bastards home?

BTW, I'm writing this while listening to the GoT soundtrack.


----------



## JimJ

True Blood is 12 episodes but Treme is 10 and it's more expensive, so that's not the best predictor. Right now Amazon has GOT available for preorder at 41.99 on DVD. No blu listing yet. It's not been officially announced, so that price will probably change when it is, but if you pre-order now you're guaranteed to pay that price or lower. So, if you're worried about the price going up you should pre-order now.


----------



## jason10mm

If HBO said that they would sell the BR set for $100 with $50 GUARANTEED to go towards season 3, I'd pay it and be glad to do so!

In fact, I think GoT is one of the best recent examples of a show that could go all pay per view. The fanbase is rabid and appears to be large enough to make each individuals per episode contribution only $1-2. They have tried this before with (much) lesser IPs but I think it could work with this one should HBO back out after season 2 (which would be an idiot move as I think any number of other cable networks would pick up the show). The network landscape is so different from when HBO canned Rome and Carnivale prematurely, hopefully it allows GoT to flourish. Season 1 is essentially a giant glob of exposition, after this the number of naked lady adorned monologue sequences should drop dramatically in favor of more interesting conflicts.

Back to the books. Anyone see any evidence of a deluxe set? I have the hardbacks but would be enticed to get illustrated or leather bound editions. Not seen any movement on this front, just wondering if anyone has seen something from a small press or anything.


----------



## kansaskyle

jason10mm said:


> Back to the books. Anyone see any evidence of a deluxe set? I have the hardbacks but would be enticed to get illustrated or leather bound editions. Not seen any movement on this front, just wondering if anyone has seen something from a small press or anything.


Since the series is not complete, I'm guessing we won't see some kind of deluxe set for awhile. I'm hopeful the sucess of the HBO series will push Martin to finish the remaining books in a timely manner. It's been something like five or six years since _A Feast for Crows_ and he already had some of the next book already written!


----------



## JRTomlin

jason10mm said:



> Historically HBO will drop the DVD/BR set a few weeks before the premier of the next season. Expect to pay around 60-90 bones for it though (or would those be silver stags?). My wife and I do a LOTR weekend every year, now we will be doing LOTR and GoT weekends (kinda sad to think that a movie trilogy is longer than an entire SEASON of a TV show . Head over to www.innatthecrossroads.wordpress.com for ASOIAF inspired food
> 
> ****Because she was "kidnapped" (according to Robert) and Robert started a war to get her back. We don't know if she was truely kidnapped or if she went with Ryannar willingly, (Ryannar did give Lyanna the blue roses rather than his wife) and we don't how the time span. Possibly 9 months We are also told that Ned found Lyanna in "a bed of blood", which could have been from childbirth and she dies after begging Ned to "Promise me". What exactly did Ned promise? We'll never know.******
> 
> You know, I didn't think of that wording in that way. But isn't Robert's unending hatred of the Targaryens motivated by Lyanna's death? Is Ned hiding Jon to keep him from being killed by Robert? They do say LYanna looks a lot like Arya who in turn is the most "Stark-like" alongside Jon and Ned. I just don't think Ned would have kept it from Catelyn, especially seeing how much animosity she bears towards him. If she knew he was actually Lyanna's son I think she would have kept the secret and treated him much better. Hmmm, all speculation at this point, I wonder if there is ana ncient midwife out there, or perhaps Howland Reed.....


He would have kept it secret from Catelyn if his oath to his dying sister was to hide who Jon was. Ned NEVER broke his word nor am I absolutely sure she would have kept the secret. If the choice was between HER children and Lyanna's child, Catelyn would have sold Jon down the river in a heartbeat.

There is strong opinion that Howland Reed knows and I think that is true. Martin has promised that at some point the truth will out. I have an opinion but with Martin you can ever be sure! 

I suspect people now know why spoilers were so rife around here. It was hard to discuss without letting out a hint of the end of the novel. LOL


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

JRTomlin said:


> I suspect people now know why spoilers were so rife around here. It was hard to discuss without letting out a hint of the end of the novel. LOL


Not just the end of GoT, but things we know from the other books. The purist in me was upset when the HBO series revealed secrets we didn't know in the novel, but from a televised standpoint, it makes perfect sense.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

JRTomlin said:


> He would have kept it secret from Catelyn if his oath to his dying sister was to hide who Jon was. Ned NEVER broke his word nor am I absolutely sure she would have kept the secret. If the choice was between HER children and Lyanna's child, Catelyn would have sold Jon down the river in a heartbeat.
> 
> There is strong opinion that Howland Reed knows and I think that is true. Martin has promised that at some point the truth will out. I have an opinion but with Martin you can ever be sure!
> 
> I suspect people now know why spoilers were so rife around here. It was hard to discuss without letting out a hint of the end of the novel. LOL


There is only one passage where Ned offhandedly refers to John as his son. The scene with the wolves and Ned says it is time to see what trouble his sons have gotten into (paraphrasing here, beginning of book 1). After this Ned is non-committal about Jon's mother (or possibly parentage). The comment about his "sons" proves nothing, I have had occasion to know many adopted, and or step children who even though not actually born to a person were treated as and refereed to as son/daughter.

Why does this matter? Future plot twist for the succession? Possibility of kissing cousins (hey, the Targaryens have been marrying siblings for centuries). Or this is all just a red herring to keep our minds active but either way, I believe that Jon's parentage will be played out in the book eventually.

Spoiler alert, REALLY do not read beyond this line 

The one I am worried about is


Spoiler



Arya, after going through everything she went through will she become an assassin and then sent back to assassinate someone near and dear to our hearts? After all they are doing their best to make her forget her past. Or will she get her dream job of assassinating Cersei?? Will she stick her with the pointy end?


----------



## JRTomlin

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> There is only one passage where Ned offhandedly refers to John as his son. The scene with the wolves and Ned says it is time to see what trouble his sons have gotten into (paraphrasing here, beginning of book 1). After this Ned is non-committal about Jon's mother (or possibly parentage). The comment about his "sons" proves nothing, I have had occasion to know many adopted, and or step children who even though not actually born to a person were treated as and refereed to as son/daughter.
> 
> Why does this matter? Future plot twist for the succession? Possibility of kissing cousins (hey, the Targaryens have been marrying siblings for centuries). Or this is all just a red herring to keep our minds active but either way, I believe that Jon's parentage will be played out in the book eventually.
> 
> Spoiler alert, REALLY do not read beyond this line
> 
> [/spoiler]


Oh, I agree with you that Ned was non-committal about Jon's parentage. I was purely disputing that he would have told Catelyn the truth. If he swore to his dying sister to keep it secret, he most definitely would not have told anyone, including her.

I agree with your concerns about Arya. No comment further since it is impossible to discuss without massive spoilers. 

Edit: I felt that Ned's being nnon-committal was at least in part characterisation. He had to lie at least by implication but had difficulty bringing himself to actually say the lie. That would fit with my beliefs about what kind of person he was.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

JRTomlin said:


> Oh, I agree with you that Ned was non-committal about Jon's parentage. I was purely disputing that he would have told Catelyn the truth. If he swore to his dying sister to keep it secret, he most definitely would not have told anyone, including her.
> 
> I agree with your concerns about Arya. No comment further since it is impossible to discuss without massive spoilers.
> 
> Edit: I felt that Ned's being nnon-committal was at least in part characterisation. He had to lie at least by implication but had difficulty bringing himself to actually say the lie. That would fit with my beliefs about what kind of person he was.


This is the possibility that I see.


Spoiler



Lyanna was never kidnapped, she went willingly but Brandon's reacted to quick, without all of the information, the mad king ordered Brandon Stark's father or KL then proceeded to roast the father and strangle the son. Robert being Robert decided to rebel, Ned being Ned had to avenge someone and "rescue" his sister. After Rhaegar was killed and KL was taken (or delivered by the opportunistic lanisters) Ned, Howland Reed and others went to rescue Lyanna who would soon be delivering her and Rhaegar's son. Ned and Howland barely survived the fight with the Kingsgaurd (who were guarding a possible heir) but Lyanna suffered complications from childbirth. Before dying Lyanna exacted a promise from Ned to tell NO ONE, especially Robert about Jon. As of now, that would leave Howland Reed as the only surviving person with the knowledge of Jon's parentage. Howland Reed has not been introduced yet but his kids are beyond the wall with Bran looking for a three eyed crow.

The strongest point for this argument are the character witnesses for Rheagar, the person they describe is not someone who would kidnap and possibly rape someone. He is described as honorable, mild, reluctant warrior, not raving rapist or murder. Consider that the only person who spoke lf Lyanna's and Roberts love was Robert, I think he may have been mistaken.


----------



## stormhawk

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Spoiler alert, REALLY do not read beyond this line
> 
> The one I am worried about is
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Arya, after going through everything she went through will she become an assassin and then sent back to assassinate someone near and dear to our hearts? After all they are doing their best to make her forget her past. Or will she get her dream job of assassinating Cersei?? Will she stick her with the pointy end?


Ahh, but


Spoiler



she needs to have her sight restored first, unless she's going to be one of those cool Zatoichi blind swordswoman types.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IFT1ZA/ref=pe_20293640_emwa_email_title_1

Doesn't say when but they will take your money.


----------



## kellymcclymer

I should *not* have read this thread! I was all prepared to never see the HBO series (TV is almost always weaker than the books, and I love the books...). Now I'll have to put them on NetFlix and DH and I will do a GoT weekend sometime late this winter when the snow has us down.

I agree with lots of others here -- I want Arya and Jon to survive. If they die, my heart will break. I've been waiting for the next novel for ages. Martin is an amazing writer, but I wish someone would invent a device to extract this story from his mind a little faster


----------



## David M. Baum

kellymcclymer said:


> I've been waiting for the next novel for ages. Martin is an amazing writer, but I wish someone would invent a device to extract this story from his mind a little faster


 I have the feeling that the story hasn't fully formed in his mind yet.


----------



## Pearson Moore

Now that the first season is over, what are your thoughts on the characters in Game of Thrones? Which characters were most interesting? Did you prefer the portrayals in the novel, or did the television series do a better job in capturing the essence of the character? Did the television series add anything you didn't expect, or leave out important character traits or histories? If you could read more--or see more--of the characters, which ones would occupy the top slots in your list? I don't care about "spoilers", so if you want to talk about how the television interpretation of


Spoiler



Bran's sight might be interpreted as a harbinger of what happens to Arya's eyesight at the end of AFfC


 (or any other such connection), go for it!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

I've merged your thread with our existing thread for Game of Thrones, Pearson.  And while you may not care about spoilers, many members do, so I've added spoiler block to your text. 

Thanks,

Brtsy
KB Moderator


----------



## jason10mm

While I approve of most of the shows casting, upon rereading the books they fall short in many areas, particularly WRT age. Everyone is so young in the books, they are vital 30-somethings, not aged 40-50 year olds. So I just mentally replace book Ned with early Sharpe-era Sean Bean and all is well  The kids are definitely the actors now embedded in my mind though, especially Jon and Arya. Hopefully in season 2 Cersi will be more sexy as the actress won't be pregnant. They REALLY downplayed her smoldering personality. Danaerys was spot-on, though the depiction of the Dothraki was not what I imagined (I envisioned a 50's era Hollywood Mongol horde). Still, the show was fantastic, and a good tribute to the power of the books. I don't think I've ever seen such a faithful adaptation, down to entire lines of dialogue lifted straight from the book. What a tribute to Martin's screenwriting background.


----------



## Pearson Moore

> While I approve of most of the shows casting, upon rereading the books they fall short in many areas, particularly WRT age. Everyone is so young in the books, they are vital 30-somethings, not aged 40-50 year olds.


I agree, Jason. I think your point is well taken, especially since age is one of the more important themes of the novels. It's not the old, grey-haired, presumably "wise" characters who demonstrate the type of real wisdom GRRM is interested in. Here's something that makes your point even more vital: Robert and Ned and company were teens to early twenty-year-olds in the novel chronology when they initiated Robert's Rebellion. That is, they were about the same age as Jon, Robb, and Gendry and company are at the beginning of AGoT. The older generation made its move to take the Seven Kingdoms and extract revenge for Lyanna's death when they were about the same age as their children were at the beginning of the novel. This repetition of ages gives a very different kind of flavour to the proceedings in the novel than I found in the television series. In the novels, we have a feel of "seen this before," but in the screen adaptation, it's more like something entirely new, never seen before. I think this is actually rather important to what I understand to be the thesis of the novels, which I see revolving around Tyrion's idea of the Grotesques. Children can be among the Grotesques, since they are rejected for their immaturity. Adults enjoying positions of power with the current structure cannot be among the Grotesques, since they are the arbiters of social acceptability. Therefore, those who most define the established order--Ned, Robert, and characters I am apparently prohibited from mentioning [moderators' police action/prevention of "spoiler" mentions]--are the first to die. This concept is obscured in the screen adaptation by having ancient actors portray characters who, as you noted, were vital 30-somethings in the novels.


----------



## JRTomlin

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> This is the possibility that I see.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Lyanna was never kidnapped, she went willingly but Brandon's reacted to quick, without all of the information, the mad king ordered Brandon Stark's father or KL then proceeded to roast the father and strangle the son. Robert being Robert decided to rebel, Ned being Ned had to avenge someone and "rescue" his sister. After Rhaegar was killed and KL was taken (or delivered by the opportunistic lanisters) Ned, Howland Reed and others went to rescue Lyanna who would soon be delivering her and Rhaegar's son. Ned and Howland barely survived the fight with the Kingsgaurd (who were guarding a possible heir) but Lyanna suffered complications from childbirth. Before dying Lyanna exacted a promise from Ned to tell NO ONE, especially Robert about Jon. As of now, that would leave Howland Reed as the only surviving person with the knowledge of Jon's parentage. Howland Reed has not been introduced yet but his kids are beyond the wall with Bran looking for a three eyed crow.
> 
> The strongest point for this argument are the character witnesses for Rheagar, the person they describe is not someone who would kidnap and possibly rape someone. He is described as honorable, mild, reluctant warrior, not raving rapist or murder. Consider that the only person who spoke lf Lyanna's and Roberts love was Robert, I think he may have been mistaken.


Yep, a fair analysis of the situation. N


Spoiler



ed also talked about how strong willed Lyanna was. What's more there were times when Ned told things Lyanna said that indicated she was NOT eager to marry Robert. Add all that to Ned's stiff-necked notions of honor and I don't see any way Jon is his son.


----------



## JRTomlin

stormhawk said:


> Ahh, but
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> she needs to have her sight restored first, unless she's going to be one of those cool Zatoichi blind swordswoman types.


If she doesn't, I am going to be SO upset. One of my big questions though is,


Spoiler



is the Hound really dead? Remember Martin didn't show him die which leaves that very much in doubt.


----------



## Pearson Moore

J. R.,

Fascinating idea!  The ages and the timeline are just about right for your train of events, and it seems to make the characters and facts fit better than a superficial acceptance of the characters' own interpretations of the foundational events would allow.  Ned, in particular, fits better into your interpretation than into the superficial chronology and relationships that we would glean from an acceptance of his words as being correct.  It would mean that his move to protect his family at his public confession at the Sept of Baelor was not the first time he had made family a priority--it's just that the first time around--just before the Rebellion, that is--he was able to do so without sacrificing his honour, in a way.  He was willing to tarnish his own image to protect family, but in a way that was different from the lie he told at the confession.  Your idea gives Ned's character a great deal more continuity, and makes the other story elements fit into place better.  Fascinating!  Very nicely thought out.  I like it!


----------



## Pearson Moore

J. R., 

No, I don't think H (SC, the one who accompanied Arya in ASoS; I'm being cagey 'cause I don't know how to black out the text) is dead.  It's the Elijah Principle, applied to novels; if you don't see 'im die, he ain't dead.  Also, I think GRRM is going to assert some notion of nobility (honour, etc.) as being important, and I think he has tried to build SC into a noble character.  As for Arya's condition at the end of AFfC, I'm not so sure the condition is temporary.  As I alluded to in my reference to Bran, there is more than one way of seeing!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Pearson Moore said:


> ...and characters I am apparently prohibited from mentioning [moderators' police action/prevention of "spoiler" mentions]...


Pearson--

I'm sorry if you saw my request as "police action." Perhaps you misunderstood, and are not familiar with how spoiler block on this forum works. You are free to mention spoilers, just please use "spoiler block" over them as I did in your post. I'm sorry I didn't clarify things, you've been a member for awhile, and I thought you knew how it worked.

Click on the







in the tag icons above the text box, then type your spoiler between the tags. Or, if you decide something you typed needs to be spoilered, you can highlight the text and then click on the







. The text will be surrounded by tags like this: [spoiler]this is spoilered text[/spoiler] and look like this:


Spoiler



this is spoilered text


. To view the text, move your cursor over the black bar. (Or, on an iDevice, touch the black bar.)



Spoiler



Hope this helps!



As always, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. 

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Pearson Moore

Betsy,

Thanks!


Spoiler



I like the police photo in the signature line!


 I tried to insert the SP designation for the previous sentence. I'll check back to see if it works.

As for spoilers,
I was not trying to upset any apple carts by mentioning things not brought up in the first ASoIaF novel. I understood that this part of KB was for discussion of novels, and since the later ASoIaF novels are well, novels, I understood it was fine to discuss them. I am very careful at GoT websites and in anything I might have written about GoT (the television series) to leave out any spoilery material, since the focus there is on the television series, not on the novels. At Westeros.org, the oldest ASoIaF website, any discussions are allowed on the novels web pages, and the television series threads are labelled spoiler and non-spoiler. Thanks for the clarification about this. At what point will we be able to discuss later books in the ASoIaF series? Is it possible to start a thread about "A Clash of Kings," or would this be inappropriate to Kindle Boards? It's not a problem at all either way; there are plenty of places online for people to discuss the later novels--I'm just wondering, since it seems possible that other KB members may have an interest in Martin's later novels. Thanks again!


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

It is fine to discuss the later novels, we just use the spoiler tag because not everyone in this thread in particular, has read the novels. Some have been attracted because of the show though! 

We've had a few other threads about the books: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=61946.0;all is probably the closest to what you're looking for. But I'm sure it'd be OK to start a thread for ACoK...

Betsy: Think we could count it as a "book club" and have it set up similar to the Outlander section (ie a separate thread for each novel?) I think that would help as a book discussion rather than a comparison, and folks who haven't read the novels wouldn't be likely to stumble across spoilers.


----------



## DYB

I don't see any reason why you can't start a thread about "A Clash of Kings" (or even "A Song of Ice and Fire") and discuss whatever.  You can even say "Spoilers included" in the title of the thread - which should keep those who don't want spoilers away, and (moderators correct me here if I'm wrong) if you're warning of spoilers in the thread title you may not even need to put the text inside into spoiler protection program.


----------



## PinkKindle

JRTomlin said:


> If she doesn't, I am going to be SO upset. One of my big questions though is,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> is the Hound really dead? Remember Martin didn't show him die which leaves that very much in doubt.


I don't think he is, and


Spoiler



I think we see where he is in _A Feast for Crows_ -- Brienne goes to an island where some monks live, and the Hound's horse is there, and the description several times highlights a very large gravedigger who is limping. He is described several times without his face ever being described (I guess he was wearing some type of hooded robe). He is first described right after they see his horse (which was also a description I recognized, but then the monk elder does specifically tell Brienne that this was the Hound's horse), and my immediate thought was that it was the Hound. The elder does tell Brienne that the Hound is dead, but I suppose he was protecting him. Brienne, of course, believes him . . . but it's Brienne! I think he was wounded in the thigh in the fight at the inn, wasn't he? That would account for his limp. And of course the elder left the helm to mark the "grave."


----------



## PinkKindle

I've always agreed with the idea that


Spoiler



Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (though it kind of seems too obvious, makes you wonder why none of the characters thought of it!), and if that is correct, I think the fact that he is both a Dragon and a Wolf will be important -- even if he is a bastard. It makes me mad, though, how Ned kept the secret (presumably his promise to Lyanna) -- I mean, surely Catelyn would have treated him much better had she thought of him as Lyanna's son instead of Ned's bastard! But I suppose that's why he couldn't tell her . . . but still, what poor Jon went through as a child!



I have two main questions I want to know more about at the end of AFfC -- and I really hope that we find out more about them in the new book!

First,


Spoiler



I really want to know what happens to Davos the Onion Knight. Yeah, I know he's not the most exciting character, but I kind of like him in a way. In one of Cersei's chapters we hear that he was a captive of one of the Manderlys and that he was executed, but I really want to know whether that's true and how it came about! GRRM does mention him as a character we'll hear more about in the next book, so I hope so!



Second,


Spoiler



I really would like to get a Margaery point of view! I think there's a lot more going on with her than Cersei realizes! All the time when Cersei was plotting against her and trying to get her arrested for treason, I really think Margaery must have been plotting right back! It seems fairly obvious that Lady Merryweather betrayed the Cersei and led to her arrest, but I just wonder how much of it was a setup. Like was Margaery really requesting the moon tea, or was that a trap for Cersei? Also, I really don't think Margaery was the "younger prettier queen" in Cersei's prophecy -- I think Cersei should have paid more attention to that talk of dragons and slave revolts for that! Oh, and Lady Olenna, she's a hoot -- would love to hear more about her too! And is Loras really even injured? We never got to "see" that for ourselves, just heard about it . . . I'd just really like to hear a lot more about the Tyrells!



Well, there's a lot of black in this post, but those are the things I've been thinking about. I really, really can't wait for the next book!


----------



## MichelleR

jason10mm said:


> Everyone is so young in the books, they are vital 30-somethings, not aged 40-50 year olds.


Um, that's the cut off line between vigorous and decrepit, huh?


----------



## Ben Dobson

PinkKindle said:


> I've always agreed with the idea that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (though it kind of seems too obvious, makes you wonder why none of the characters thought of it!), and if that is correct, I think the fact that he is both a Dragon and a Wolf will be important -- even if he is a bastard. It makes me mad, though, how Ned kept the secret (presumably his promise to Lyanna) -- I mean, surely Catelyn would have treated him much better had she thought of him as Lyanna's son instead of Ned's bastard! But I suppose that's why he couldn't tell her . . . but still, what poor Jon went through as a child!


I'd personally almost guarantee that


Spoiler



Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I mean, why are all those little hints even there if he's not? I don't feel like GRRM is the kind of writer to insert completely pointless red herrings (same kind of deal with the Hound being alive--if you read between the lines at the monastery bit mentioned above, he almost definitely is, because why have those tidbits in there if they don't mean anything?) I've heard people say it's too obvious, but it isn't as though anyone in the books would guess--we only know it's 'obvious' because we have privileged information, having seen what's going on in Ned's head and whatnot. I'd be disappointed if Jon wasn't their kid or something along those lines at this point--I much prefer a plot element that makes sense and is set up properly than one that takes some random direction just because it's unpredictable. All that said, I'm not the author, and if ol' George goes in another direction, I trust he'll have a reason. He hasn't let me down yet.





Spoiler



I'm with you on the Tyrells--that's an area of the seven kingdoms we've only ever seen and heard about second hand, I'd love to get in the head of Margaery or Loras or Olenna and see what their game is. It never occurred to me to doubt that Loras was injured, but that would be interesting. Though it would have been hard to fake, since he was supposedly leading troops in battle at the time, so there'd be a lot of witnesses.





> Um, that's the cut off line between vigorous and decrepit, huh?


Sure, didn't you know the human body rapidly decays at 40? It's almost instantaneous, I hear.


----------



## PinkKindle

Ben Dobson said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on the Tyrells--that's an area of the seven kingdoms we've only ever seen and heard about second hand, I'd love to get in the head of Margaery or Loras or Olenna and see what their game is. It never occurred to me to doubt that Loras was injured, but that would be interesting. Though it would have been hard to fake, since he was supposedly leading troops in battle at the time, so there'd be a lot of witnesses.


Yeah, but


Spoiler



they wouldn't have to fake it to everybody, pretty much just to Cersei. She hasn't come in contact with anyone who was actually in the battle while she's there in King's Landing -- Cersei was just told that the news came by raven. It could be true certainly, but something about the whole thing seems funny to me. It just feels to me like Cersei is being really manipulated by the Tyrells and anyone whom they've been able to win to their side, and she's too stupid and arrogant to realize it!


 But that's just my theory. 

I absolutely agree with you that GRRM wouldn't put these hints in if there wasn't something to it. I think absolutely everything is in there for a reason. Sometimes we'll figure it out correctly and sometimes our theories will be wrong (but it's certainly fun to have theories!), but I'm sure whatever ends up happening will be great!  I also agree with you that what is obvious to us with the benefit of being able to read everyone's thoughts wouldn't be obvious to the characters -- that's also a very good point.


----------



## Neekeebee

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> Betsy: Think we could count it as a "book club" and have it set up similar to the Outlander section (ie a separate thread for each novel?) I think that would help as a book discussion rather than a comparison, and folks who haven't read the novels wouldn't be likely to stumble across spoilers.


Ooooh, _love_ that idea!

N


----------



## Geoffrey

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> Betsy: Think we could count it as a "book club" and have it set up similar to the Outlander section (ie a separate thread for each novel?) I think that would help as a book discussion rather than a comparison, and folks who haven't read the novels wouldn't be likely to stumble across spoilers.


How Fun. Betsy and I have been having the same conversation - that this thread is ripe for an Outlander style Book Club for the series .... I think it would be very popular. I read the first 2.5 books in the series as they first came out so I may even want to read along with the Klub. Gertie did a wonderful job leading the Outlander discussions and I think for this to work we will need 1 or more people willing to take on the roll of discussion leader.

Do me a favor, take a look at that Klub: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/board,36.0.html ... and tell me your thoughts. do you want to do this? Do you like the existing format? Do you want to be our fearless discussion leader? I'm all for this but I want to hear what you all think about it too ...


----------



## JRTomlin

PinkKindle said:


> I don't think he is, and
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I think we see where he is in _A Feast for Crows_ -- Brienne goes to an island where some monks live, and the Hound's horse is there, and the description several times highlights a very large gravedigger who is limping. He is described several times without his face ever being described (I guess he was wearing some type of hooded robe). He is first described right after they see his horse (which was also a description I recognized, but then the monk elder does specifically tell Brienne that this was the Hound's horse), and my immediate thought was that it was the Hound. The elder does tell Brienne that the Hound is dead, but I suppose he was protecting him. Brienne, of course, believes him . . . but it's Brienne! I think he was wounded in the thigh in the fight at the inn, wasn't he? That would account for his limp. And of course the elder left the helm to mark the "grave."


I agree 100%. That's been my theory. Also you might recall a hound sniffing and greeting the gravedigger which I thought was a sort of foreshadowing, but I will admit also that Martin can surprise so I don't like to assume too much.

Edit: A Klub would be fantastic. I would certainly take part, but I have no thoughts on format.


----------



## JRTomlin

Pearson Moore said:


> J. R.,
> 
> Fascinating idea! The ages and the timeline are just about right for your train of events, and it seems to make the characters and facts fit better than a superficial acceptance of the characters' own interpretations of the foundational events would allow. Ned, in particular, fits better into your interpretation than into the superficial chronology and relationships that we would glean from an acceptance of his words as being correct. It would mean that his move to protect his family at his public confession at the Sept of Baelor was not the first time he had made family a priority--it's just that the first time around--just before the Rebellion, that is--he was able to do so without sacrificing his honour, in a way. He was willing to tarnish his own image to protect family, but in a way that was different from the lie he told at the confession. Your idea gives Ned's character a great deal more continuity, and makes the other story elements fit into place better. Fascinating! Very nicely thought out. I like it!


I think it also makes Ned a different kind of person than the usual "oh, he's just too honourable to live" interpretation.


----------



## JRTomlin

stormhawk said:


> Ahh, but
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> she needs to have her sight restored first, unless she's going to be one of those cool Zatoichi blind swordswoman types.


Let me mention that I don't find that cool but cliched and really, REALLY hope it's not the direction Martin is going in. But I don't think it will be as easy as her waking up the next morning and it's all over either. Not sure what's going to happen with that plot.


----------



## stormhawk

Spoiler



IMHO, The Hound is too mean to kill easily.


----------



## PinkKindle

I just re-read them over the past 2 months (they're kinda long ), so I wouldn't start reading them again, but I certainly remember them well enough to participate in the discussion!  And I'd love to do so -- there is so much in the books to discuss!  I will be starting the new book in July, though (as I'm sure many others will be) -- would it be possible maybe to have a separate Klub thread discussing the new book simultaneous to discussing the previous books?  Personally I'd love to discuss the previous books -- but I know I'm going to really want to discuss the new one too!   If that was possible, then those that were up to the new book could discuss it without giving spoilers to those new to the series.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

This thread is for the HBO series, discussing any information from books 2-5 would include spoilers. A new thread for that book would probably be a good idea if you wanted to discuss it.


----------



## Colin Taber

stormhawk said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, The Hound is too mean to kill easily.


He's not mean. He's actually one of the most sincere and noble characters.


----------



## jason10mm

Given that the 5th book comes out in a few weeks, maybe we could do that one? I'm sure they exist but I have had a hard time finding a stable westeros forum (or at least one that is work accessible) so having one here would be nice. Going back to GoT would be cool as well.

BTW, pure speculation here, but after a recent reread of GoT I am now 100% behind the "Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid" theory. Jorah tells Danaerys that her actions of saving women from getting raped "reminds me of your brother", "Visiries?", "No, Rhaegar." Which suggests Rhaegar wasn't the beast Ned and Robert think he is. Plus Rhaegar gave Lyanna the bouquet of blue roses after the tourney instead of his own wife, which also hints at some (mutual?) attraction. Methinks this was more of a Romeo and Juliet type thing. I'm sure a careful examination of the timeline would clear this up as well.


----------



## JRTomlin

Colin Taber said:


> He's not mean. He's actually one of the most sincere and noble characters.


He is both. At times he is cruel because of his suffering but underneath that he is also sincere and noble. He is one of Martin's most complex and fascinating characters.


----------



## JRTomlin

jason10mm said:


> Given that the 5th book comes out in a few weeks, maybe we could do that one? I'm sure they exist but I have had a hard time finding a stable westeros forum (or at least one that is work accessible) so having one here would be nice. Going back to GoT would be cool as well.
> 
> BTW, pure speculation here, but after a recent reread of GoT I am now 100% behind the "Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's kid" theory. Jorah tells Danaerys that her actions of saving women from getting raped "reminds me of your brother", "Visiries?", "No, Rhaegar." Which suggests Rhaegar wasn't the beast Ned and Robert think he is. Plus Rhaegar gave Lyanna the bouquet of blue roses after the tourney instead of his own wife, which also hints at some (mutual?) attraction. Methinks this was more of a Romeo and Juliet type thing. I'm sure a careful examination of the timeline would clear this up as well.


I have a feeling we're all going to want to discuss ADWD.

The timeline makes it very much a possibility. Whether Martin has been leading us the garden path with another explanation... But I honestly can't see Ned having a bastard. It would be totally out of character for him.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

JRTomlin said:


> Let me mention that I don't find that cool but cliched and really, REALLY hope it's not the direction Martin is going in. But I don't think it will be as easy as her waking up the next morning and it's all over either. Not sure what's going to happen with that plot.





Spoiler



Everything to this point in the temple has been meant to make her forget or atleast seperate herself from her past. She killed a deserter from the watch presumably because he betrayed a trust to the watch/north/Starks and her half brother. If they had given up on her they would have left her out on the street. I think it stands to reason that this is another attempt to make her "forget" her past as a form of conditioning. I suspect that at a future point she will be set against her family in some way and her love from her family and her conditioning will cause her some "cognitive dissonance". Seems to me that this will be played out in the final book.


----------



## JRTomlin

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Everything to this point in the temple has been meant to make her forget or atleast seperate herself from her past. She killed a deserter from the watch presumably because he betrayed a trust to the watch/north/Starks and her half brother. If they had given up on her they would have left her out on the street. I think it stands to reason that this is another attempt to make her "forget" her past as a form of conditioning. I suspect that at a future point she will be set against her family in some way and her love from her family and her conditioning will cause her some "cognitive dissonance". Seems to me that this will be played out in the final book.


Yes, that is what she did. I'm not sure if what was done to her was conditioning or punishment. Whether what you suggest is the direction Martin will go with it or not, I don't know. It's possible.

When Martin hasn't given strong hints, and I don't think he has in this case, I hesitate to make predictions. He is too fond of surprising his reader. ("I chopped Ned's head off. Surprise!" *evil grin*)


----------



## PinkKindle

JRTomlin said:


> Yes, that is what she did. I'm not sure if what was done to her was conditioning or punishment. Whether what you suggest is the direction Martin will go with it or not, I don't know. It's possible.
> 
> When Martin hasn't given strong hints, and I don't think he has in this case, I hesitate to make predictions. He is too fond of surprising his reader. ("I chopped Ned's head off. Surprise!" *evil grin*)


No, I really don't think he has given strong hints in this case -- honestly, I'm really not sure where he is going with Arya at this point.


Spoiler



I do think he made it a point that what happened to her at the end of the book was because she was being "too Arya" by killing Dareon (the deserter from the Watch) since that's what a Stark would do -- I mean, he hadn't done anything to her, the only reason to kill him is because she's a Stark! -- and not "Nobody," but I'm really not sure why they blinded her or if it's permanent or what they're training her for. It was when she was caught practicing with Needle, though, that she had to get rid of all her stuff -- so I'm not sure how well that meshes with assassin training. I'm just taking a wait-and-see approach on Arya, because I honestly have no clue!





Colin Taber said:


> He's not mean. He's actually one of the most sincere and noble characters.


I agree with this. I've come to really like him.


----------



## DYB

So are we going to do the Klub?  I've never done one of these so it'd be interesting!


----------



## Geoffrey

DYB said:


> So are we going to do the Klub? I've never done one of these so it'd be interesting!


Yes. Are we? 

..... I like the format used for Outlander and I think it should be emulated ... that would be a separate folder per novel with a discussion leader (and that can be either the same person for the series or a person willing to do the first one with leaders for other books to volunteer themselves as we get ready to start the next books) I read the first 2.5 books some years ago and would be interested in reading them as part of the Klub - I just don't have the bandwidth to lead the discussions ....

I'm thinking it would be some work for the discussion leader but not a large amount - you would essentially break the book into discussion sized weekly sections, let everyone know the reading schedule and then start each week with some starter questions .... and generally do a little cat herding to keep everyone somewhat on topic.

If there is sufficient interest here (and someone wanting to be our fearless leader), we can discuss a starting week, I'll talk to Harvey about setting up the Klub and then we can make a general announcement for everyone who wants to join in ....


----------



## MichelleR

I'd join, but only because I'm ahead on the reading.


----------



## JRTomlin

I love the idea of a Klub. There seems to be enough interest. Who will volunteer to be "fearless leader"?


----------



## Neekeebee

Geoffrey said:


> Yes. Are we?


Are we starting with book 1 and going forward through book 5 (assuming it really is released in July...crossing my fingers here, after being disappointed by the two postponed dates for release of book 4) or doing all 4/5 concurrently? I have a feeling some of us who will be cracking open _A Dance With Dragons_ on July 12th will also want to participate in the discussions of earlier books....so let's get going! (Rubs hands together in anticipation. )

N


----------



## Basilius

Neekeebee said:


> (assuming it really is released in July...crossing my fingers here, after being disappointed by the two postponed dates for release of book 4)


It will be out in July. In fact, Amazon.de inadvertently shipped out some copies early, and spoilers are already hitting the net.


----------



## Neekeebee

Yea!  You've saved me two weeks of clicking on the book page on Amazon daily to make sure the release date hasn't changed.

N


----------



## Geoffrey

Neekeebee said:


> Are we starting with book 1 and going forward through book 5 (assuming it really is released in July...crossing my fingers here, after being disappointed by the two postponed dates for release of book 4) or doing all 4/5 concurrently? I have a feeling some of us who will be cracking open _A Dance With Dragons_ on July 12th will also want to participate in the discussions of earlier books....so let's get going! (Rubs hands together in anticipation. )
> 
> N


That's what I'm thinking. I've spoke to various and sundry people - on KB and off who have started on book 1 based off their love of the TV show ... I have one who's thinking of joining KB to participate in the Klub .... it will take some time to make it through all 5 books and discuss them in sections, but I think that will be part of the joy of it.


----------



## DYB

I've only read the first book, so I'm definitely in for discussion of that.  I will proceed with the rest as the Klub does!


----------



## Geoffrey

I did a little hunting and I found a good site which breaks the books down into chapter summaries. This could be useful place to develop discussion question ideas ....

http://towerofthehand.com/books/101/


----------



## Dr. Laurence Brown

I've never read these but this thread has me intrigued. At least I have a few books to work through before having to worry about the release of the next one!


----------



## JRTomlin

Geoffrey said:


> I did a little hunting and I found a good site which breaks the books down into chapter summaries. This could be useful place to develop discussion question ideas ....
> 
> http://towerofthehand.com/books/101/


Are you going to be our fearless leader?


----------



## Geoffrey

I want to participate in the group but I'm already leading the Quasi-Official Klub and a goodreads group so I'm pretty full up.  

now, an established author as yourself would be in a good position to be our leader ....


----------



## jason10mm

Heck, I'll head it up. I skimmed the book klub stuff. DoD is 70ish chapters so if we go with the 6-8 week guideline then we should be doing 10-15 chapters a week. Probably need two threads though, one for folks who finished it and is 100% spoilerrific and one for folks moving through it at the same pace that contains ZERO spoilers of upcoming material. Or we can just assume the rabid fans are gonna chew through this beast in 2 days and just have one open season thread. Given the brutal length of the book and the long time since AFFC, much less ASOS, I can easily see a need to service folks with specific questions (who is Arya and what was Needle again? Why is XXXX on the Wall?) but this thread can probably handle those type of questions.


----------



## DYB

jason10mm said:


> Heck, I'll head it up. I skimmed the book klub stuff. DoD is 70ish chapters so if we go with the 6-8 week guideline then we should be doing 10-15 chapters a week. Probably need two threads though, one for folks who finished it and is 100% spoilerrific and one for folks moving through it at the same pace that contains ZERO spoilers of upcoming material. Or we can just assume the rabid fans are gonna chew through this beast in 2 days and just have one open season thread. Given the brutal length of the book and the long time since AFFC, much less ASOS, I can easily see a need to service folks with specific questions (who is Arya and what was Needle again? Why is XXXX on the Wall?) but this thread can probably handle those type of questions.


Yay, a volunteer! I wish I had the time to head it, but I don't.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Sorry folks, I've been at WDW for the past week!  Happy to see so many like the idea of a Klub.  Still catching up on the boards and my other Internet stuff, so I'll poke my head back in later.


----------



## JRTomlin

I do hope we're going to do a Klub of all the novels and not only ADWD. I admit it will be tough going, but discussing them with some real book lovers would be fantastic.


----------



## DYB

JRTomlin said:


> I do hope we're going to do a Klub of all the novels and not only ADWD. I admit it will be tough going, but discussing them with some real book lovers would be fantastic.


I agree! I think the plan is to do a discussion of all the books, but to do the new book first since it's about to come out. Then the rest of us will go back to the beginning and hopefully will be joined by those who have already read them all. It'll be a couple of years before we get back to ADWD again!


----------



## Colin Taber

A club would be good and makes a lot of sense. 

This is a title we've really been waiting for, and it's also likely we'll be waiting a good while for the follow up. All the more reason to give us a dedicated place to talk about it as the conversation(s) will go on for years!


----------



## Geoffrey

Jason10mm's proposed schedule has a read through of Dragons first then starting the entire series this autumn with a break between each book.  

A Dance with Dragons – July through August

A Game of Thrones – October & November
A Clash of Kings – January & February
A Storm of Swords – Spring 2012
A Feast for Crows – Summer 2012
A Dance with Dragons – Late Summer/Autumn 2012

That spreads it out over a year ... which is a time commitment but also won't overwhelm anyone reading them all for the first time ....


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Looks good to me. And anyone who doesn't have time for a re-read can check out towerofthehand.com for chapter summaries.


----------



## drenfrow

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> Looks good to me. And anyone who doesn't have time for a re-read can check out towerofthehand.com for chapter summaries.


That site is exactly what I have been looking for. I read books 1-3 a couple of years ago. I just bought book 4 because I know I'm going to want read the new one when it comes out and I don't have time to start all over, so I need to get caught back up on the first books. Thanks for posting the link.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

You're very welcome. IIRC, that's where I first read the theory of Jon's parentage.


----------



## jason10mm

You know, using the tower of the hand summaries for ASOS has me reconsidering the lyanna/rhaegar theory for Jon. Anyway, we will hash it out over in the club  I'm hoping ADWD will let us see what foreshadowing in the previous books is meaningful or not.


----------



## Lursa (aka 9MMare)

Qualifier: I havent read the thread except the first and last pages.

*Spoiler Alert*





I dont really read much fantasy and the only reason I watched GOT was because Sean Bean is gorgeous. (And now he's gone!   ) And I wasnt sure if I was going to watch it after he died but did get roped in by 2 characters...his youngest daughter and the Horse Warrior Khalessi....esp after the final scene of the final season episode. 

I feel like I have too many books to try and read to read GOT also. Plus I found the HBO series pretty satisfying....am I missing out on alot of cool 'historical' detail? (not 'fantasy' detail so much).


----------



## Coral Moore

There's a lot of the political intrigue that you're missing in the TV series. The Kingdom situation is more complex than they can get into in the show. There are more players and more factions involved. As a whole, I think the books don't have much to do with fantasy at all. Only in the later books is there magical stuff going on.


----------



## Ben Dobson

To be fair, the first season, like the first book, is getting the pieces into place for the major political stuff.  I don't know that they skipped a lot of the complexity and players so much as a lot of players don't even come in until book/season 2.

But everyone should read the books, they're incredibly good.


----------



## Colin Taber

Geoffrey said:


> Jason10mm's proposed schedule has a read through of Dragons first then starting the entire series this autumn with a break between each book.
> 
> A Dance with Dragons - July through August
> 
> A Game of Thrones - October & November
> A Clash of Kings - January & February
> A Storm of Swords - Spring 2012
> A Feast for Crows - Summer 2012
> A Dance with Dragons - Late Summer/Autumn 2012
> 
> That spreads it out over a year ... which is a time commitment but also won't overwhelm anyone reading them all for the first time ....


That sounds like a good plan!


----------



## MichelleR

Ben Dobson said:


> But everyone should read the books, they're incredibly good.


Yep, I read the book, because of the series. Having approached it that way -- experiencing a couple episodes of the show, before catching up and surpassing with the book, I can say I feel richer having read the book. (And it leading me to the next book.) Once I was ahead of the show, the book made the show better.


----------



## R. M. Reed

I read each book as it came out, and until I read this thread it never occurred to me to question whether Jon was Ned Stark's "by-blow." That's what the story said, so I accepted it. I suppose I should start over and read them all again, but I want to do that when all the books are out and I know there will be an ending.


----------



## JRTomlin

Colin Taber said:


> That sounds like a good plan!


Great plan. I love it.


----------



## JRTomlin

jason10mm said:


> You know, using the tower of the hand summaries for ASOS has me reconsidering the lyanna/rhaegar theory for Jon. Anyway, we will hash it out over in the club  I'm hoping ADWD will let us see what foreshadowing in the previous books is meaningful or not.


I'm curious. What there made you re-think it? While I am perfectly willing to believe that Martin will surprise us, I do not think the surprise will be that Jon is really Ned's son.

Every time I re-read the novels (and I have read all of them several times) I become more convinced of the theory.


----------



## jason10mm

Mild ASOS SPOILERS regarding Jon's parentage/speculation:



Spoiler



The part where Arya meets up with Ser somebody who is a "milk brother" to Jon, a woman who happens to be called Wylla, who is a, IIRC, a maid to Arthur Dayne's sister. Then there is the story Reed's daughter tells Bran about the big tourney at Harrenhall where Ned and Dayne's sister met and danced. I had forgotten these elements and they do seem to indicate that Ned and her had a romantic relationship. So would Ned bring Lyanna's son there to get nursed and then claim him? Why not leave him there. Anyway, it made the waters murky for me, though gives me great hope ADWD will resolve this issue. I guess we will know for sure if one of Dany's dragons lands on his shoulder and licks him, indicating Targaryen blood (as one of her mercenary retainers got this reaction and also claimed remote Targaryen heritage)


----------



## JRTomlin

jason10mm said:


> Mild ASOS SPOILERS regarding Jon's parentage/speculation:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The part where Arya meets up with Ser somebody who is a "milk brother" to Jon, a woman who happens to be called Wylla, who is a, IIRC, a maid to Arthur Dayne's sister. Then there is the story Reed's daughter tells Bran about the big tourney at Harrenhall where Ned and Dayne's sister met and danced. I had forgotten these elements and they do seem to indicate that Ned and her had a romantic relationship. So would Ned bring Lyanna's son there to get nursed and then claim him? Why not leave him there. Anyway, it made the waters murky for me, though gives me great hope ADWD will resolve this issue. I guess we will know for sure if one of Dany's dragons lands on his shoulder and licks him, indicating Targaryen blood (as one of her mercenary retainers got this reaction and also claimed remote Targaryen heritage)





Spoiler



Yes, I think he would bring her son there to get nursed (the infant had to be taken somewhere to be nursed) and then claim him. He would not leave his sister's son to be raised without a proper warrior's training to be nothing more than a servant. Remember, the assumption is that he swore to protect the child, which he could hardly do if he didn't have him. Also, Ned adored his sister. Would he simply abandon her child?! I don't think so.

What's more the supposed mother is Wylla. That is what Arthur Dayne told Arya and why she was so angry. You are proposing that Ned had an affair with a maid? That was an full stop as far as I was concerned. I think that's a red herring and not a very strong one. 

But speculation. I don't think it will be answered in ADWD though.


----------



## Neekeebee

For those who pre-ordered ADwD for the Kindle, does anybody know if Amazon will deliver it at midnight on July 12?  EDT?  (Must adjust schedule accordingly... )

N


----------



## PinkKindle

Assuming it's the same as all other preorders, it will be midnight Pacific (so 3 a.m. EST).  If you leave your wireless on when you go to sleep, it should come in by itself somewhere around that time -- so it will be there when you wake up!


----------



## DYB

About Jon (and I have only read the 1st novel so far, so this the purest speculation!), but:


Spoiler



if Jon is Lyana and Targaryen's child, I can't imagine that Ned would have told Catelyn about it. I suspect she would have hated Jon even more because he would, in essence, become her own children's superior. And Ned would know this. It was probably safer to make Catelyn think Jon is his bastard. Plus, it puts Ned into a very awkward position of raising Jon while knowing Jon is socially superior to his own children. Makes Ned's life very complicated.


----------



## PinkKindle

DYB said:


> About Jon (and I have only read the 1st novel so far, so this the purest speculation!), but:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> if Jon is Lyana and Targaryen's child, I can't imagine that Ned would have told Catelyn about it. I suspect she would have hated Jon even more because he would, in essence, become her own children's superior. And Ned would know this. It was probably safer to make Catelyn think Jon is his bastard. Plus, it puts Ned into a very awkward position of raising Jon while knowing Jon is socially superior to his own children. Makes Ned's life very complicated.


Spoiler but not going beyond the first book:


Spoiler



I don't really think he'd be superior per se -- in all likelihood he'd still be a bastard, just Lyanna's bastard instead of Ned's, so I think Cat would have treated him better as her nephew, even a bastard nephew, than she did as her husband's bastard. There are theories that perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna and then he wouldn't be a bastard -- but to me it doesn't make much sense, considering that Rhaegar was already married to Ellia. Yes, Aegon the Conqueror married BOTH of his sisters at the same time, but no one else seems to be able to have multiple spouses, so I'm not really buying that he could marry her -- so Jon would still be a bastard for political and status reasons (therefore "less" than Ned's trueborn children), but he'd have both Stark and Targaryen blood. And he'd probably be in great danger for that reason as well (particularly from Robert!)


----------



## DYB

PinkKindle said:


> Spoiler but not going beyond the first book:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really think he'd be superior per se -- in all likelihood he'd still be a bastard, just Lyanna's bastard instead of Ned's, so I think Cat would have treated him better as her nephew, even a bastard nephew, than she did as her husband's bastard. There are theories that perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna and then he wouldn't be a bastard -- but to me it doesn't make much sense, considering that Rhaegar was already married to Ellia. Yes, Aegon the Conqueror married BOTH of his sisters at the same time, but no one else seems to be able to have multiple spouses, so I'm not really buying that he could marry her -- so Jon would still be a bastard for political and status reasons (therefore "less" than Ned's trueborn children), but he'd have both Stark and Targaryen blood. And he'd probably be in great danger for that reason as well (particularly from Robert!)


Remember Ned mentioned (well, somebody in the book did) that the Robert's bastard stable-boy was the rightful heir to the throne. Certainly over Cersei's children. So when I say that Jon would be the Stark children's superior I mean that he (if the theories are true)


Spoiler



would be the product of a union between two powerful families: an actual heir to the Targaryen throne mixed with blood of the Starks (King of the West.)


 That would certainly elevate him above the Starks and I don't think Catelyn would like that.

Incidentally, to go back to the HBO series, I wonder what happened with Jennifer Ehle playing Catelyn. She was originally cast and played Catelyn in the original pilot. I've never seen an explanation of why she didn't stick around for the series proper. Daenerys was also played by a different actress. I'd be very curious to see those performances!


----------



## PinkKindle

DYB said:


> Remember Ned mentioned (well, somebody in the book did) that the Robert's bastard stable-boy was the rightful heir to the throne. Certainly over Cersei's children. So when I say that Jon would be the Stark children's superior I mean that he (if the theories are true)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> would be the product of a union between two powerful families: an actual heir to the Targaryen throne mixed with blood of the Starks (King of the West.)
> 
> 
> That would certainly elevate him above the Starks and I don't think Catelyn would like that.


I respectfully disagree.  Robert's various bastards were a threat to Cersei, especially in demonstrating how much her own children don't look like Robert, but they are not rightful heirs to the throne. By the laws of Westeros, which are put forth in the books several times, a bastard cannot inherit a throne or a lordship or anything like that. I'm pretty sure this is discussed in the first book, but it's also definitely discussed later on as well. So, if everyone found out the truth about Cersei's children, then no they wouldn't be the rightful heirs (


Spoiler



and would be killed for being abominations born of incest and Cersei would be killed for being a traitor to the king -- so she really doesn't want this found out!


) -- but neither would Gendry or Edric Storm or any of Robert's illegitimate children -- Stannis would be the rightful heir and then Renly.

And the same for Jon Snow -- he can't inherit Winterfell and be the Stark heir.


Spoiler



Even if Lyanna is his mother, in the order of inheritance he would still be after all of Ned's children, and their children if they had any -- and still only if he were trueborn and Lyanna was married to Jon's father. The only way Jon could be the Targaryen heir is if Rhaegar and Lyanna were somehow married, which I guess is possible, but I'd like to see some good evidence for that considering that he was already married to someone else and had 2 children with her! But even then, the Targaryens have been deposed and are despised by the new regime, and the actual acknowledged Targaryen heirs have to live in fear for their lives across the Narrow Sea -- so all that would do was put Jon's life in danger, which I guess is a good reason for Ned to keep the secret.



So, again, I respectfully disagree as far as Jon having any superior claim versus the Stark children. However, I absolutely do agree that who his parents are and his bloodline will eventually become important, but I don't think it was any threat to Catelyn and her children, and I think it's a shame that he was treated so poorly by her all his life -- though I don't really blame her, given the information she had.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

PinkKindle said:


> I respectfully disagree.  Robert's various bastards were a threat to Cersei, especially in demonstrating how much her own children don't look like Robert, but they are not rightful heirs to the throne. By the laws of Westeros, which are put forth in the books several times, a bastard cannot inherit a throne or a lordship or anything like that. I'm pretty sure this is discussed in the first book, but it's also definitely discussed later on as well.


Somewhere, when we are given a history of the Targaryens, Aegon IV legitimised all of his bastard children of noble birth on his deathbed, which started the Blackfyre Rebellion. So, if someone were to produce a document legitimised Jon or Gendry (depending on his mother I guess), with Cersei's children the product of incest, they would be the rightful heirs.


Spoiler



Although, as you mentioned, the Targaryens have been displaced, so if the theory is correct, what good does it do Jon? Plus, he took the vows of the Night Watch, so he has given up any rights to claim.


----------



## Riven Owler

I love HBO Game of Thrones so far!  It's fabulous.  I'm thinking about reading the books now.  I could not believe it when they killed off one of my favorite characters (not going to say who).  I didn't love this character as much as I loved John Locke on Lost, but still....


----------



## mooshie78

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> Somewhere, when we are given a history of the Targaryens, Aegon IV legitimised all of his bastard children of noble birth on his deathbed, which started the Blackfyre Rebellion. So, if someone were to produce a document legitimised Jon or Gendry (depending on his mother I guess), with Cersei's children the product of incest, they would be the rightful heirs.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Although, as you mentioned, the Targaryens have been displaced, so if the theory is correct, what good does it do Jon? Plus, he took the vows of the Night Watch, so he has given up any rights to claim.


Well the


Spoiler



Targaryen blood could protect him from fire and give the Dragon's loyalty to him just like Dany...assuming it works the same for half bloods. Of course, that would be moot for why Ned kept him secret etc. since everyone believed dragons were gone. But it could be a major plot point down the road.


----------



## JRTomlin

PinkKindle said:


> Spoiler but not going beyond the first book:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really think he'd be superior per se -- in all likelihood he'd still be a bastard, just Lyanna's bastard instead of Ned's, so I think Cat would have treated him better as her nephew, even a bastard nephew, than she did as her husband's bastard. There are theories that perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna and then he wouldn't be a bastard -- but to me it doesn't make much sense, considering that Rhaegar was already married to Ellia. Yes, Aegon the Conqueror married BOTH of his sisters at the same time, but no one else seems to be able to have multiple spouses, so I'm not really buying that he could marry her -- so Jon would still be a bastard for political and status reasons (therefore "less" than Ned's trueborn children), but he'd have both Stark and Targaryen blood. And he'd probably be in great danger for that reason as well (particularly from Robert!)





Spoiler



Yes, Jon would still potentially be the superior to the Stark children. There is no other male heir to the Targaryen blood and the Targaryen blood is what is important in this context. It is the royal line of the kingdom while the Starks are just a royal line in the north.



You might look at, after the War of the Roses, what BASTARD line ended up ruling England, and much of the storyline for SoIaF comes from the War of the Roses. For anyone who doesn't know, the Tudor's were a BASTARD line of the Plantagenets through John of Gaunt's bastard children. In England, bastard children supposedly could not inherit but sometimes did if there was no legitimate line. William the Conqueror is often referred to as William the Bastard. He inherited Normandy in spite of being a bastard and was declared the heir to the throne of England. The Tudors are examples of that. So bastardy was not always a bar to inheritance.



Spoiler



When there is no male line, all bets tend to be off especially in the case of civil war, which they are at the end of book one. They are no longer following the rules of primogeniture. Robert made it clear that he would murder an infant Targaryan to protect his right to the throne and would have done so if he could have murdered Dany's child. He would have killed Jon, without doubt.


----------



## mooshie78

JRTomlin said:


> Yes, Jon would still potentially be the superior to the Stark children. There is no other male heir to the Targaryen blood and the Targaryen blood is what is important in this context. It is the royal line of the kingdom while the Starks are just a royal line in the north.





Spoiler



Not true until the events of Game of Thrones though, as Viserys was still alive and well. So he wasn't necessarily superior to the Stark children because of that, but just because of potentially being able to be inline behind Viserys and Dany if he could get around being a bastard excluding him as discussed above by others.


----------



## JRTomlin

mooshie78 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Not true until the events of Game of Thrones though, as Viserys was still alive and well. So he wasn't necessarily superior to the Stark children because of that, but just because of potentially being able to be inline behind Viserys and Dany if he could get around being a bastard excluding him as discussed above by others.





Spoiler



Being third in line to the throne is not unimportant though and I have no doubt that Robert would have killed him, and was, I think, Ned's motivation throughout much of his life


. However, I should spoiler protect my comment because that becomes a potential issue in later books.


Spoiler



And look at how the issue of bastardy disappears when Jon is offered Winterfell. It shows that that is not an absolute bar to inheritance.


----------



## PinkKindle

mooshie78 said:


> Well the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Targaryen blood could protect him from fire and give the Dragon's loyalty to him just like Dany...assuming it works the same for half bloods. Of course, that would be moot for why Ned kept him secret etc. since everyone believed dragons were gone. But it could be a major plot point down the road.


I do agree with this for sure,


Spoiler



but I didn't mention it much above because it was just talking about the first book and inheritance issues -- but I absolutely think that his Targaryen and Stark blood could play a major role in anything to do with dragons and Others and Ice and Fire, etc. Presumably, supernatural elements like that would deal with the bloodline, not the inheritance line -- as evidenced by Jon getting Ghost. Also, I think Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of a blue rose growing out of a wall of ice had to do with Jon on the Wall.



Also, back to inheritance again (spoiler for later books):


Spoiler



Robb did want to legitimize Jon and have him be the heir to Winterfell, since he believed Bran and Rickon to be dead, and it seemed he did make some kind of will to that effect prior to the Red Wedding. But Jon clearly isn't going to give up his vows to the Night's Watch and being Lord Commander, as is shown when he turns Stannis's offer down.



Again, I do think his blood, especially


Spoiler



if it is Stark (ice) and Targ (fire) blood


 will become important --


Spoiler



I'm guessing dragons don't care if your parents were married or not!


----------



## JRTomlin

PinkKindle said:


> I do agree with this for sure,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> but I didn't mention it much above because it was just talking about the first book and inheritance issues -- but I absolutely think that his Targaryen and Stark blood could play a major role in anything to do with dragons and Others and Ice and Fire, etc. Presumably, supernatural elements like that would deal with the bloodline, not the inheritance line -- as evidenced by Jon getting Ghost. Also, I think Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of a blue rose growing out of a wall of ice had to do with Jon on the Wall.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, back to inheritance again (spoiler for later books):
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Robb did want to legitimize Jon and have him be the heir to Winterfell, since he believed Bran and Rickon to be dead, and it seemed he did make some kind of will to that effect prior to the Red Wedding. But Jon clearly isn't going to give up his vows to the Night's Watch and being Lord Commander, as is shown when he turns Stannis's offer down.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I do think his blood, especially
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> if it is Stark (ice) and Targ (fire) blood
> 
> 
> will become important --
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing dragons don't care if your parents were married or not!


Oh, dear. We SO need our Klub so the whole thread isn't blacked out. It is really pretty funny if you just look at this thread.

Any new comers to SoIaF, there is a LOT to speculate upon. 

PinkKindle, that is what Jon decided for now... but in the future, circumstances could (and I suspect will) change.


----------



## PinkKindle

JRTomlin said:


> Oh, dear. We SO need our Klub so the whole thread isn't blacked out. It is really pretty funny if you just look at this thread.
> 
> Any new comers to SoIaF, there is a LOT to speculate upon.
> 
> PinkKindle, that is what Jon decided for now... but in the future, circumstances could (and I suspect will) change.


Yes, they could, and if he's


Spoiler



one of the heads of the dragon


, we don't really know what that will involve, but I kind of like him where he is. 

There's a nice essay up on the Tower of the Hand site dealing with inheritance issues for the Iron Throne (note, anyone who has not finished _A Feast for Crows_ probably should not read this): http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/07/10-bones-from-feast-lannisters/index.html.

I've actually been spending a lot of time reading the essays over there this past week or so, and I've really enjoyed this "Bones from the Feast" series -- highly recommend!


----------



## Victoria J

Wow! Every forum I go to where Game of Thrones has a thread it's Black Bar City!  

I just bought GoT for my Kindle. Hopefully I can catch up with you all! I hope to write great fantasy fiction like this someday!


----------



## gregoryblackman

Can't wait to hear about the new castings.  Anyone have any information?


----------



## JRTomlin

gregoryblackman said:


> Can't wait to hear about the new castings. Anyone have any information?


I'm here to serve.

From George's blog: The part of Brienne, Maid of Tarth, will be played by British actress GWENDOLINE CHRISTIE.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

JRTomlin said:


> I'm here to serve.
> 
> From George's blog: The part of Brienne, Maid of Tarth, will be played by British actress GWENDOLINE CHRISTIE.





Spoiler



And Natalie Dormer to play "The Little Queen"


----------



## jason10mm

Just so everyone knows, the ADWD book klub thread is officially open! We actually have an entire "A Song of Ice and Fire" section which we will eventually fill up, but for now the ADWD section is the only one I'm working in. Just a freindly reminder, if you use the KB affiliate link I've created there to pre-order the book, this site gets some $ I believe. The e-book is $15 which IIRC is as low as it has ever been, so if you cancel your previous pre-order and re-preorder with the affiliate link you shouldn't be losing any money (someone correct me if I am wrong).

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,75178.0.html


----------



## gregoryblackman

You're the best JRTomlin


----------



## JRTomlin

gregoryblackman said:


> You're the best JRTomlin


Awww... Thanks. *blush*


----------



## jason10mm

Wow, that actress is 6'3"!! Looks like she needs to hit the gym a bit but otherwise decent casting based on physicality alone. I was half expecting some spunky Buffyesque pixie actress, good to see they went with a half-giant 

Ughhh, I can see the Hodor/Brienne fanfic already......


----------



## Neekeebee

PinkKindle said:


> Assuming it's the same as all other preorders, it will be midnight Pacific (so 3 a.m. EST). If you leave your wireless on when you go to sleep, it should come in by itself somewhere around that time -- so it will be there when you wake up!


Thanks!

N


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

Downloaded this morning, going to go lock myself in my office at work. Luckily I can do that on occasion.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

Dolorous Edd Tollett said:


> Downloaded this morning, going to go lock myself in my office at work. Luckily I can do that on occasion.


hehe. Me too, except I don't need to lock the door. I'm only 3% since I am still trying to do some work  (And the boss left for the rest of the day!)


----------



## Colin Taber

Dance of Dragons: Got mine, though I went had copy!


----------



## MichelleR

Is had copy like hard copy -- only with a New England accent? I went in my cah to the stoah to get a had copy, which I will read in my front yahd. Oh, wait, Aussie accent! ::nods::

(Sorry, I don't know what's wrong with me.)


----------



## mooshie78

My preorder downloaded and I finished skimming over all the chapter summaries of the first four books on www.towerofthehand.com last night.

Now to finish the last 60% of the book I'm currently reading (the final book of David Dalglish's Half-Orc series) so I can start this up!


----------



## Neekeebee

Sooooo happy! 

N


----------



## David M. Baum

Got my preordered Dance of Dragons. 
I'm trying hard to temper my expectations. I sooooo don't want to be disappointed.


----------



## jason10mm

You won't be. Martin has lost none of his touch, and it isn't long before I was right back in Westeros.

Only problem now is that I can't help but imagine everything as made by HBO  Already been one or two events that I just KNOW will be the final scenes of an episode!

Taking lots of notes for the book klub. Hope to see lots of you guys there next week when we can start discussion. Soooooo much to talk about..... Damned if I don't need a character compendium and a big map though. Someone, somewhere, must make a nice cloth map of Westeros and a dramatis personae list. Off to towerofthehand....


----------



## JRTomlin

Oh, my God! It is SO good. I forced myself to stop at the part where Jon uses his sword. I'm trying not to finish it too fast.


----------



## JRTomlin

PinkKindle said:


> I respectfully disagree.  Robert's various bastards were a threat to Cersei, especially in demonstrating how much her own children don't look like Robert, but they are not rightful heirs to the throne. By the laws of Westeros, which are put forth in the books several times, a bastard cannot inherit a throne or a lordship or anything like that. I'm pretty sure this is discussed in the first book, but it's also definitely discussed later on as well. So, if everyone found out the truth about Cersei's children, then no they wouldn't be the rightful heirs (
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> and would be killed for being abominations born of incest and Cersei would be killed for being a traitor to the king -- so she really doesn't want this found out!
> 
> 
> ) -- but neither would Gendry or Edric Storm or any of Robert's illegitimate children -- Stannis would be the rightful heir and then Renly.
> 
> And the same for Jon Snow -- he can't inherit Winterfell and be the Stark heir.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Even if Lyanna is his mother, in the order of inheritance he would still be after all of Ned's children, and their children if they had any -- and still only if he were trueborn and Lyanna was married to Jon's father. The only way Jon could be the Targaryen heir is if Rhaegar and Lyanna were somehow married, which I guess is possible, but I'd like to see some good evidence for that considering that he was already married to someone else and had 2 children with her! But even then, the Targaryens have been deposed and are despised by the new regime, and the actual acknowledged Targaryen heirs have to live in fear for their lives across the Narrow Sea -- so all that would do was put Jon's life in danger, which I guess is a good reason for Ned to keep the secret.
> 
> 
> 
> So, again, I respectfully disagree as far as Jon having any superior claim versus the Stark children. However, I absolutely do agree that who his parents are and his bloodline will eventually become important, but I don't think it was any threat to Catelyn and her children, and I think it's a shame that he was treated so poorly by her all his life -- though I don't really blame her, given the information she had.


Yes, he can inherit.


Spoiler



All he had to do was claim it when Stannis offered it to him


.

This is based on English traditions where bastards sometimes inherit, as I just explained at some length, and


Spoiler



it certainly didn't stop Stannis from offering him a lordship. There is already one bastard who has inherited in the story--the Bolton's bastard, Ramsey Snow, had his bastardy 'removed' and was made the heir of Bolton. That they don't in the ordinary scheme of things does not mean they _can't_ under some circumstances


. If there is no rightful heir, a bastard can very much come into play. A bastard can easily be a threat to a house that has opponents.



Spoiler



I do think there is one possibly good argument against Jon having royal blood. It's the fact that the Red Woman never demanded his blood for her magic. That made me re-think my theory pretty seriously. However, that is by no means absolute proof. 1. She may not know as much as she thinks she does or 2. she may have her own reasons for not saying. However, if he isn't a Targaryan, I still don't think he is Ned's son by any of the currently given explanations. There is no way Ned was going around having casual sex with some maid.


----------



## mooshie78

JRTomlin said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way Ned was going around having casual sex with some maid.





Spoiler



Well he did have that conversation with Robert where Robert mixed up one of his whore's with one of Ned's when trying to remember Jon's mother. While he had that wrong, the conversation did seem to apply that Ned did some sleeping around back then. I don't see that as out of character as he was young and barely had been married to Catelyn at that point.

Not saying that I believe Jon will end up being Ned's son, just that I don't find it at all far fetched that Ned slept around when he was young and possibly during the war when he'd just married Catelyn.


----------



## JRTomlin

mooshie78 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Well he did have that conversation with Robert where Robert mixed up one of his whore's with one of Ned's when trying to remember Jon's mother. While he had that wrong, the conversation did seem to apply that Ned did some sleeping around back then. I don't see that as out of character as he was young and barely had been married to Catelyn at that point.
> 
> Not saying that I believe Jon will end up being Ned's son, just that I don't find it at all far fetched that Ned slept around when he was young and possibly during the war when he'd just married Catelyn.


I think if you re-read that


Spoiler



Ned actually doesn't admit he had a whore


. In fact, his part in that conversation bears looking at closely it looks very much like someone trying to equivocate without actually lying. Of course, Robert would think that though since Ned brought back a 'bastard'. 

Robert forgot who Ned said the mother was.


Spoiler



Ned had to say _someone_ was the mother. That doesn't mean a thing. Before he was married, I can see it. After he was married, it would have been on his list of being dishonorable.


----------



## mooshie78

Fair enough, I can see that.  I just also see Ned not denying having had any whores/casual flings, and would find it more unbelievable for a powerful, young male of that era to have not had any sexual encounters while away at war.  Especially in this series!


----------



## JRTomlin

Ned would definitely put his honor above a random sexual urge.



Spoiler



I mean consider Jaime who has (as he very clearly states) never had sex with anyone except Cersei


. If you don't remember that, I can find the passage where he says as much. Yet he was away from her fighting a war, too, several times.

Not all the men in Martin's world have random whores and casual flings. Many do, but Martin doesn't write a world where everyone is the same. There are men in the world who believe in fidelity. Mind you, I don't know that even Ned was so straight-laced he would have felt that way before he was married.


----------



## MichelleR

JRTomlin said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I mean consider Jaime who has (as he very clearly states) never had sex with anyone except Cersei
> 
> 
> . If you don't remember that, I can find the passage where he says as much. Yet he was away from her fighting a war, too, several times.


I think that was the scene in the cell between


Spoiler



Catelyn and Jaime


 in Clash of Kings at the 78% mark/page 798. The one they did a version of this season, just to confuse things. He was mocking her over


Spoiler



Jon Snow


, saying he was


Spoiler



truer to Cersei than Ned had been to her,


 and taking the moral high ground.


Spoiler



"Poor old dead Ned. So who has **** for honor now, I ask you?"


----------



## Lyndl

I got my pre-ordered copy.  I'm so excited, I want to start right now, but I also want to wait so it won't be over too soon.  I need to finish The Book of Deacon first.  It doesn't seem right to discard it as if it were of no consequence when I am actually enjoying it.


----------



## Colin Taber

MichelleR said:


> Is had copy like hard copy -- only with a New England accent? I went in my cah to the stoah to get a had copy, which I will read in my front yahd. Oh, wait, Aussie accent! ::nods::
> 
> (Sorry, I don't know what's wrong with me.)


Oops! Damn typos! And I dare not go back and fix it now or your post will make no sense! 
All's I can say is  Chowder!


----------



## MichelleR

Colin Taber said:


> Oops! d*mn typos! And I dare not go back and fix it now or your post will make no sense!
> All's I can say is  Chowder!


How gallant that you think my posts ever make sense.


----------



## jason10mm

JRTomlin said:


> Oh, my God! It is SO good. I forced myself to stop at the part where Jon uses his sword. I'm trying not to finish it too fast.


WHAT! Jon uses a sword! SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you gonna tell us that Tyrion drinks, Daenerys combs her hair, and Bran likes chicken? The book is ruined!!! 

But yeah, I know the part you are talking about. Good stuff


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about


Spoiler



I posted one word on Facebook: YES!!!!! And discussing with hubby over dinner (he was just up to Dany's first chapter) he completely guessed what the Yes was for. I mean, come on, with all the things that it could have been, he got it in one guess?! His actual words were "I hope some one dies" "I can't say what it was for" "I hope it was <correct name>"


----------



## jkswift

Just watched Episode 10 last night--I love this series and no I haven't read any of the books. But I think I may now.


----------



## JRTomlin

I just finished it. I am several steps beyond speechless. 

I feel it would be wrong to put what I really want to say even behind a spoiler, but... *cusses and stomps around*


----------



## jason10mm

Uh oh, I had better kick my reading into high gear. If there is major pain coming, like the death of a beloved character, I don't wanna get spoiled. Hopefully this won't sour the book klub, though if we made it through book one I'm sure we can survive book 5. I'm writing questions as I go, even though looking back some are so naive


----------



## JRTomlin

Well, I think I can say without spoilers that there are a couple or four cliffhangers (or more) and let's just say that Martin is NEVER predictable.


----------



## DYB

If he kills Jon or Arya - I'm not reading it!


----------



## JRTomlin

DYB said:


> If he kills Jon or Arya - I'm not reading it!


He leaves so darn many cliff hangers...

I will say that whatever you expected to happen in this novel is probably _not_ what happened. I won't comment even behind a spoiler beyond that. Too many people haven't read it yet.

*bites tongue til it bleeds*

Edit: Considering blah blah blah and blah blah blah and blah blah and blah di blah blah, if he takes six years to finish the next one... GAH!


----------



## DYB

JRTomlin said:


> He leaves so darn many cliff hangers...
> 
> I will say that whatever you expected to happen in this novel is probably _not_ what happened. I won't comment even behind a spoiler beyond that. Too many people haven't read it yet.
> 
> *bites tongue til it bleeds*
> 
> Edit: Considering blah blah blah and blah blah blah and blah blah and blah di blah blah, if he takes six years to finish the next one... GAH!


  I just read a few reviews at Amazon and they're decidedly mixed. The biggest complaint seems to be that actually not much happens and that Martin doesn't resolve anything at all. Someone suggested that this and "Crows" should have been one novel just as intended - but 1000 pages for all of it.


----------



## ginaf20697

DYB said:


> If he kills Jon or Arya - I'm not reading it!


Would it matter? It's not like anyone ever stays dead lately.


----------



## MichelleR

Okay, I think this thread just became a little too spoiler-y for someone who is only on the third book.


----------



## Geoffrey

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.  

Don't forget to use your Spoiler blocks ... Remember, there are a brazillion people waiting to start reading or not yet caught up ....


----------



## DYB

More casting news for the series. Stephen Dillane will play Stannis Baratheon. And Dutch actress Carice Van Houten will play Melisandre.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/HBO-Game-Thrones-Casts-Melisandre-Stannis-Baratheon-33575.html


----------



## JRTomlin

ginaf20697 said:


> Would it matter? It's not like anyone ever stays dead lately.


1. That would be a spoiler.

2. Fortunately, it's also not true so it's not really a spoiler.

I could make a list of important characters who stay dead. There are several of them including some VERY important characters. There is also a list of people we're not _sure_ whether they're dead or not. (If you don't see them die, they may or may not be dead, even if you're told they're dead.)

And there is a list of favorite characters who are still alive at the end of book 5 but I won't say which because a LOT happens.

Let's try to be careful about spoilers.


----------



## JRTomlin

DYB said:


> More casting news for the series. Stephen Dillane will play Stannis Baratheon. And Dutch actress Carice Van Houten will play Melisandre.
> 
> http://www.cinemablend.com/television/HBO-Game-Thrones-Casts-Melisandre-Stannis-Baratheon-33575.html


Thanks!

Dillane looks great for Stannis:


----------



## mooshie78

Dillane is a great choice.  He looks the part, and he's a very good actor based on what I saw from his performance as Thomas Jefferson in the John Adams miniseries.


----------



## jason10mm

Excellent choice for Stannis. If there was ever a role that called for a stiff "prim and proper" brit, it is Stannis  Plus he has to be Robert's younger brother yet seem 2 decades his senior.

The pick for Melisandre is cute enough, but even after a couple of books I'm still having trouble pinning her down. Alas, Eva Green probably has the correct mix of intensity, barely suppressed bat-s**t crazy, and sorta smoldering sensuality needed, hopefully this actress can bring the same. Plus she will get the dubious honor of being the one of the few female leads that isn't expected to get naked (though I bet HBO will fudge on this point).

Surprised that they don't seem to be trying for another "name" actor. I suppose the show has demonstrated it's ability to stand on its own, and Peter Dinglage, if he scores the Emmy, might be the PR "face" of the show. Still, I expected some more genre casting. Then again, I guess it would give away the life expectancy of the character


----------



## DYB

And another role cast: Davos.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/19/liam-cunningham-davos/


----------



## JRTomlin

Seems like a good choice for Davos. 

I know they're raising the ages of most of the kids but I seriously think that Natalie Dormer is too old to play Margaery Tyrell. I don't mean that she is old, but Margaery Tyrell is very young in the book, and I think that's raising her age too much. (Not that they're asking me) Still she's pretty enough and seems to be a decent actress.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

jason10mm said:


> Excellent choice for Stannis. If there was ever a role that called for a stiff "prim and proper" brit, it is Stannis  Plus he has to be Robert's younger brother yet seem 2 decades his senior.
> 
> The pick for Melisandre is cute enough, but even after a couple of books I'm still having trouble pinning her down. Alas, Eva Green probably has the correct mix of intensity, barely suppressed bat-s**t crazy, and sorta smoldering sensuality needed, hopefully this actress can bring the same. Plus she will get the dubious honor of being the one of the few female leads that isn't expected to get naked (though I bet HBO will fudge on this point).
> 
> Surprised that they don't seem to be trying for another "name" actor. I suppose the show has demonstrated it's ability to stand on its own, and Peter Dinglage, if he scores the Emmy, might be the PR "face" of the show. Still, I expected some more genre casting. Then again, I guess it would give away the life expectancy of the character


http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/19/stannis-melisandre/

The picture in that link strikes me as Melisandre-ish. As for not getting naked, lets hope they spare us the whole


Spoiler



Stannis' demon, shadow birth scene


. As for the other qualification (barely suppressed bat-s**t crazy), that brings to mind a couple of prominent politicians who could pull the role off nicely.


----------



## MichelleR

That you don't want to see the


Spoiler



shadow birth


scene, and I very much want to see it, leaves me with concerns about my emotional well-being.


----------



## David M. Baum

DYB said:


> More casting news for the series. Stephen Dillane will play Stannis Baratheon. And Dutch actress Carice Van Houten will play Melisandre.
> 
> http://www.cinemablend.com/television/HBO-Game-Thrones-Casts-Melisandre-Stannis-Baratheon-33575.html


Yeah, Carice van Houten rocks. I'm really curious to see how she does this. Go Holland!


----------



## dltanner99

George R.R. Martin is America's answer to John R.R. Tolkien. I always thought it interesting that if you compare the two names, there is a striking similarity in the sound of the first letter of the first name, last letter of the last name an the two middle initials (who has two middle names in the U.S.?). The first season of "Game of Thrones" ended with the first book. They'll likely keep the same title throughout the four potential seasons, and possibly a fifth, if George decides to finish it. They are incredible reading, but I thought the HBO series did a great job of boiling down the relationships and events that pitted the Stark family against the Lannisters. No spoilers here, but the books will not ruin series for you, or visa-versa. I just thought it was cool to see the part of Khal Drogo played by Stargate Atlantis' Jason Momoa, who is the new Conan the Barbarian.


----------



## LaRita

Is anyone as surprised as I was to find that George R.R. Martin was a writer and producer on the late 80's TV series "Beauty and the Beast?"  I recently watched a few episodes on Netflix and was amazed to see his name in the credits.  Was this before the "Game of Thrones" book or after?


----------



## jason10mm

Well before. Martin has a LONG list of excellent short stories, TV screenwriting credits, and anthology series to his name. Game of Thrones is but one feather in his cap. It was a big genre shift for him though, and probably caught him by surprise. It allowed him to duck most of the fantasy tropes of the 80s/90s as well, and his short form writing skills were what set AGOT out from the others, as each chapter usually ends in a cliffhanger and they had a staggering overlap with each other. Alas, his other interests keep him from needing to crank out ASOIAF. I fully expect some hungry authors to put out an entire triology between ADWD and his next book


----------



## Basilius

jason10mm said:


> Well before. Martin has a LONG list of excellent short stories, TV screenwriting credits, and anthology series to his name. Game of Thrones is but one feather in his cap. It was a big genre shift for him though, and probably caught him by surprise. It allowed him to duck most of the fantasy tropes of the 80s/90s as well, and his short form writing skills were what set AGOT out from the others, as each chapter usually ends in a cliffhanger and they had a staggering overlap with each other. Alas, his other interests keep him from needing to crank out ASOIAF. I fully expect some hungry authors to put out an entire triology between ADWD and his next book


Well, there were only two year gaps between books 1-2 and 2-3. Then five years, then six. I've got a feeling that, with the TV show, he's under a little more pressure to finish things off. I expect book 6 in late 2013.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

dltanner99 said:


> (who has two middle names in the U.S.?).


My brother-in-law.  Although he doesn't acknowledge his first name. I didn't know his first name wasn't Jason until I saw his driver's license.

The story goes that my husbands parents knew they weren't going to have any more children so they gave him all the male names they liked. They must have had a premonition because he (Dad) passed away suddenly not long after. Mom remarried a few years later.


----------



## David M. Baum

dltanner99 said:


> George R.R. Martin is America's answer to John R.R. Tolkien.


Why does America needs an answer for everything? I didn't even know Tolkien was a question. 
Tolkien was a great writer in his time, and GRRM is a very good writer in his time. Names aside, I don't think comparing them has much use.


----------



## David M. Baum

jason10mm said:


> Well before. Martin has a LONG list of excellent short stories, TV screenwriting credits, and anthology series to his name. Game of Thrones is but one feather in his cap. It was a big genre shift for him though, and probably caught him by surprise. It allowed him to duck most of the fantasy tropes of the 80s/90s as well, and his short form writing skills were what set AGOT out from the others, as each chapter usually ends in a cliffhanger and they had a staggering overlap with each other. Alas, his other interests keep him from needing to crank out ASOIAF. I fully expect some hungry authors to put out an entire triology between ADWD and his next book


 I believe he also wrote episodes for The Twilight Zone. I loved that series.


----------



## Dolorous Edd Tollett

David M. Baum said:


> I believe he also wrote episodes for The Twilight Zone. I loved that series.


There are so many good 2-300 page books wrapped up in each of the ASOIAF books. It is hard to grasp all of the different characters, plots, and subplots that he includes in each book and even then, in the end each book seems a little unfinished, like he could have just kept writing. That may be great for him as a writer, but for us as the readers it can sometimes strain the attention span. Not criticizing, I love the story but I wonder how he is going to tie it all together in a way that is not anti-climatic.

My other favorite series that is threatening to enter it's third decade has outlived it's author, and is being finished by someone who struggles to channel the characters the way Jordon did, although I don't think Jordon was very good at writing female characters I do believe he created characters we could love or at least love to hate.


----------



## MichelleR

LaRita said:


> Is anyone as surprised as I was to find that George R.R. Martin was a writer and producer on the late 80's TV series "Beauty and the Beast?"


Yes, and Linda Hamilton, the star of that show, was also Sarah Connor in the Terminator movies. Lena Headly, who played Cersei, starred in the Sarah Connor Chronicles. Is your mind blown?


----------



## Miriam Minger

Don't know about you, but I'm desperately missing my weekly Game of Thrones HBO Series fix.

Miriam Minger


----------



## Lursa (aka 9MMare)

Somebody please remind me, I only watched the series...didnt we already have a Stannis, in the flesh?


----------



## MichelleR

9MMare said:


> Somebody please remind me, I only watched the series...didnt we already have a Stannis, in the flesh?


Nope. We've met Renly, but not Stannis. When we meet him next year, he'll probably be at Dragonstone.


----------



## Indy

Yarghlllgrrrrrr............ I finished Dance with Dragons and holy cow.  The mods definitely don't want to hear the blue streak I'm cussing at the moment.  I mean seriously!  I know the hardback weighed three pounds (my mother in law told me) and if it went any longer it would rival war and peace...

But can we get somewhere with this story or what?!  It's like five minutes of chess, and two pieces may have been moved.


----------



## MichelleR

I'm so easily amused:


----------



## JimJ

That parody series is hysterical


----------



## MichelleR

Yep, I think it's great.


----------



## JRTomlin

Indy said:


> Yarghlllgrrrrrr............ I finished Dance with Dragons and holy cow. The mods definitely don't want to hear the blue streak I'm cussing at the moment. I mean seriously! I know the hardback weighed three pounds (my mother in law told me) and if it went any longer it would rival war and peace...
> 
> But can we get somewhere with this story or what?! It's like five minutes of chess, and two pieces may have been moved.


Believe me the words I said when I finished that novel made the local prostitutes blush. However, I don't quite agree that nothing happens. I *think* some things happen in the last few chapters; the problem is you're not quite sure WHAT.

Talk about a WTF moment.

Great parody by the way. Really hilarious.


----------



## JimJ

Some various casting news:

Gemma Whalen as Yara Greyjoy (they changed her name from Asha to avoid confusion with Osha)









Kerr Logan as Matthos Seaworth (son of Davos)









Nonso Anozie as Xaro Xhoan Daxos









Tom Wlaschiha as Jaqen H'ghar









And, they've also created a new character, called Alton Lannister. Apparently, he will take the place of Cleos Frey. I assume they did this the same reason they changed Asha's name. Cleos was a Frey but he was Jamie's cousin and fought with him. Making him a Lannister is just a way to avoid potential confusion for the casual audience. Karl Davies will play him:









EDIT: BTW, I don't think the Cleos thing has been confirmed, it's just a rumor from the set. He could be a new character with a new subplot. It's also been speculated that he could play some part in the


Spoiler



plot to set Jaime free


. I guess we'll have to wait until the show to know for sure who this Alton Lannister is.


----------



## Julia444

I just ordered the first book!  The excitement around this series (book and show) has finally gotten to me.  

I'm still trying to find a way to watch G.O.T. starting from Episode One, but can't find a legal way to access it!  It's not for sale on Amazon, either.

Julia


----------



## JimJ

Pretty cool visual effects reel from season 1. The CGI for this show was really well done.


----------



## MichelleR

Don't forget part 2.


----------



## JimJ

Box art for the season 1 BD/DVD sets, which drop on March 20th:


----------



## DYB

I'm actually really surprised they're not releasing it in time for the holidays, but it's fairly typical I guess to issue it before the new season starts.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

JimJ said:


> Box art for the season 1 BD/DVD sets, which drop on March 20th:


Sweet! I've had my BD pre-ordered for a while now. I'll call it my birthday present.


----------



## JimJ

Yeah, I've had my BD preordered ever since the listing showed up at Amazon.  I'm locked in at 54.99 (or lower, if the price is less than that).  It's available for preorder on HBO's site for 79.98, which I think is the standard list price for HBO BDs.  Amazon will, obviously, mark that down, just don't know how much yet, but it's good to know I won't have to pay more than 54.99 if it turns out to be higher than that.  Still crossing my fingers that it goes down to at least 45.99, which is what True Blood season 3 and Treme season 1 are priced at right now, with the same 79.98 list price.


----------



## JimJ

Apparently, the release date I read was wrong, because EW is reporting that it's March 6th, not March 20th. They also have a complete list of extras:

Blu-Ray only:

*Blu-ray Complete Guide to Westeros*
"An interactive compendium of the noble houses and lands featured in season one, PLUS 24 exclusive histories of the Seven Kingdoms as told by the characters themselves."

*In-Episode Guide*
"In-feature resource that provides background information about on-screen characters, locations, and relevant histories while each episode plays."

*Anatomy of an Episode*
"An in-episode experience that explores the creative minds and colossal efforts behind episode six, 'A Golden Crown.'"

*Hidden Dragon Eggs*
"Find the hidden dragon eggs to uncover even more never-before-scene content."

DVD and Blu-Ray:

*Complete Guide to Westeros*
"An interactive compendium of the noble houses and lands featured in season one."

*Making Game of Thrones*
"An exclusive 30-minute feature including never-before-seen footage from the set and interviews from the cast and crew."

*Character Profiles*
"Profiles of 15 major characters as described by the actors portraying them."

*Creating the Show Open*
"An inside look at the creation of the Emmy-winning opening title sequence for Game of Thrones."

*From the Book to the Screen*
"Executive producers David Benioff & D.B. Weiss, and author George R.R. Martin talk about the challenges of bringing Martin's epic fantasy novel to life on HBO."

*The Night's Watch*
"An in-depth look at the unique order of men who patrol and protect the Wall, a 700 foot ice structure that separates the Seven Kingdoms from the darkness beyond."

*Creating the Dothraki Language*
"An insightful glance into the comprehensive language created for the Dothraki people in Game of Thrones."

*Audio Commentaries*
"Seven audio commentaries with Cast and Crew including David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, George R.R. Martin, Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage, Kit Harington, and more."


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

woot! Now even closer to my birthday  (March 2)

I agree on the price, I thought $55 was a steal for a BR set.


----------



## VBooke

I will definitely be picking that up!


----------



## jonathanmoeller

> I will definitely be picking that up!


Me too. It'd be hilarious if HBO finished the series before GRRM did.


----------



## Brad Murgen

Those FX reels are pretty cool, always amazes me how much of the backgrounds are CGI.



jonathanmoeller said:


> Me too. It'd be hilarious if HBO finished the series before GRRM did.


I can only hope it jumpstarts him to get the series finished.



Indy said:


> Yarghlllgrrrrrr............ I finished Dance with Dragons and holy cow. The mods definitely don't want to hear the blue streak I'm cussing at the moment. I mean seriously! I know the hardback weighed three pounds (my mother in law told me) and if it went any longer it would rival war and peace...
> 
> But can we get somewhere with this story or what?! It's like five minutes of chess, and two pieces may have been moved.


I trust that Martin will get us to the right place in the end, and it will be worth it, but it really sucks having to wait so long for it to get moving. I had to deal with the same thing with The Wheel of Time, after 20 years of that I feel your pain.


----------



## samuelhawk

I must say, season 1 of GOT was quite good, but if COK and SOS are any indication, then the next two seasons will be amazing.  Watch out for book 5, though.  d*mn it GRRM.  d*mn it.


----------



## JimJ

samuelhawk said:


> I must say, season 1 of GOT was quite good, but if COK and SOS are any indication, then the next two seasons will be amazing. Watch out for book 5, though. d*mn it GRRM. d*mn it.


Next three seasons, actually. Storm of Swords is going to be two seasons, and they're considering shooting both seasons back to back. As for books 4 & 5, I wouldn't be surprised if they condensed them both into one season, since they were originally supposed to be one book. I really doubt they'll have a season with no Jon, Dany, or Tyrion.


----------



## JimJ

Season 2 teaser:


----------



## Brad Murgen

So based on that trailer, I guess the entire series is just going to be called "Game of Thrones" rather than "A Song of Ice and Fire."


----------



## CharlieLange

I just started reading Game of Thrones, but it is excellent so far, so yes I would recommend reading it!


----------



## flipside

Brad Murgen said:


> So based on that trailer, I guess the entire series is just going to be called "Game of Thrones" rather than "A Song of Ice and Fire."


Yep.

Actually, the HBO series has been called "Game of Thrones" while the first book was "A Game of Thrones". Minor differentiation but it's there if you want to be anal about it (and want to distinguish between the books vs TV series).


----------



## DYB

Brad Murgen said:


> So based on that trailer, I guess the entire series is just going to be called "Game of Thrones" rather than "A Song of Ice and Fire."


Oh yes, definitely. It would be an absolute nightmare - and would cost a fortune - to rebrand the series with every season. And I guess "A Game of Thrones" is short and to the point. "A Song of Ice and Fire" might be a bit too poetic for an HBO series. They knew they had a hard time selling a medieval fantasy series in the first place.


----------



## LauraB

I am a little confused. Is book 5 the last one or is he going to write a 6th.  I am only on book 3, but a friend who read the whole series said book 5 ended with a lot of open endings. Does anyone know if there will be a 6th? 
I am enjoying them so far, but have noticed they do all tend to end in a way that leads to the next book.


----------



## Seleya

> I am enjoying them so far, but have noticed they do all tend to end in a way that leads to the next book.


Yes, they aren't stand alone novels, the story is planned to be told in seven books, the next two are _The Winds of Winter_ and _A Dream of Spring_.


----------



## LauraB

Thanks for the answer. I'll let my friend know as well. She was disappointed after reading the last book, she said she really liked it but the end left to many questions. This concerned her because she thought it was the last book.

I've come to the series late, but I'm liking it.


----------



## Tony Richards

LauraB said:


> I've come to the series late, but I'm liking it.


Long before he started on his fantasy series, George was known to SF readers as a really first-class writer. He has always been one of my favorites.


----------



## Ernie Lindsey

Seleya said:


> Yes, they aren't stand alone novels, the story is planned to be told in seven books, the next two are _The Winds of Winter_ and _A Dream of Spring_.


I just finished up book 5 a couple of days ago. Not giving anything away, but some of the plot lines are still so wide open that I don't know how he's going to be able to finish them all in just two more books.

Going back to the OP, I can't wait to see what they do with the books throughout the series on HBO!


----------



## Colin Taber

I bought Dance With Dragons the day it came out, but still haven't finished it. Between being busy, the books hulkiing size (I went dead tree for this one) and based on the first 100 pages I've read, I can't help but struggle to gather the enthusiasm. Right now it's summer in Australia, maybe I'll leave it for wet and windy day as a housebound winter read?


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

LauraB said:


> Thanks for the answer. I'll let my friend know as well. She was disappointed after reading the last book, she said she really liked it but the end left to many questions. This concerned her because she thought it was the last book.
> 
> I've come to the series late, but I'm liking it.


IIRC, originally it was planned to be a 5 book series.


----------



## Grace Elliot

Just downloaded 'Game of Thrones' and looking forward to the read.


----------



## wdeen

I love the HBO series. Tried a few Kindle samples of the books. Didn't buy any. Just didn't click for me for some reason. Love the genre, story, and characters. Might try it again another time.


----------



## Nicholas Andrews

mom133d (aka Liz) said:


> IIRC, originally it was planned to be a 5 book series.


Originally, it was to be a trilogy. A Game of Thrones, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter. Without spoiling anything, the event with the initials RW was supposed to happen at the end of the first book. Then the story expanded so much he ended up writing A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords, and planned for a novel called A Time for Wolves to come after TWOW and finish the series. The tentative title was later changed to A Dream of Spring, and then when writing ADWD, Martin had issues with the plot and had to scrap everything he had written. That's when A Feast for Crows came about, because ADWD just got too big. He hasn't ruled out an eighth book either, if needed.


----------



## mom133d (aka Liz)

NicholasAndrews said:


> He hasn't ruled out an eighth book either, if needed.


ARRRGGGGHHH! If only we didn't have to wait so long between books...


----------



## DYB

NicholasAndrews said:


> Originally, it was to be a trilogy. A Game of Thrones, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter. Without spoiling anything, the event with the initials RW was supposed to happen at the end of the first book. Then the story expanded so much he ended up writing A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords, and planned for a novel called A Time for Wolves to come after TWOW and finish the series. The tentative title was later changed to A Dream of Spring, and then when writing ADWD, Martin had issues with the plot and had to scrap everything he had written. That's when A Feast for Crows came about, because ADWD just got too big. He hasn't ruled out an eighth book either, if needed.


Very confusing! And from what I've been reading about the latter books - it sounds like the plot got not so much too big, but got away from Martin. Discipline is a virtue - and I don't mean the fact that it's taking him many years to write (or not write, as the case might be), although that's an issue too. I mean discipline in keeping the story together and not letting it go on and on, which has been the major complaint about the last two books. To me it seems that there's a difference to discovering that you have a few more things to say and adding, say, a volume (in the case of Martin about 1000 extra pages.) But the man, it seems, has more than doubled his original idea. Which just screams Trouble! to me.


----------



## JimJ

Sample chapter from The Winds of Winter is up on GRRM's website! I really enjoyed reading this, much more than a lot of the chapters in ADWD. I've also heard that there will be another sample chapter in the paperback edition of ADWD. On the chronology of this chapter, here's what GRRM says: "The chronology, as usual, is tricky. This chapter will be found eventually at the beginning of WINDS, but as you will be able to tell from context, it actually takes place before some of the chapters at the end of DANCE,"
http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html


----------



## Ghost in the Machine

I cannot objectively comment on the TV series. I have a love/hate relationship with the books, and having read them a couple of times, I can't really judge if the TV series makes any sense without having read the books. I _seem_ to see lots of plot gaps, but I can't objectively judge if the series makes any sense while leaving them out, since the over-arcing storyline is fairly fresh in my head.


----------



## Ghost in the Machine

Also, I highly recommend checking out Martin's Fevre Dream. It's one of my favorite books.


----------



## JimJ

Ghost in the Machine said:


> I cannot objectively comment on the TV series. I have a love/hate relationship with the books, and having read them a couple of times, I can't really judge if the TV series makes any sense without having read the books. I _seem_ to see lots of plot gaps, but I can't objectively judge if the series makes any sense while leaving them out, since the over-arcing storyline is fairly fresh in my head.


I watched the show first and didn't have a problem understanding the plot. I gained a lot more understanding of everything once I read the books of course, but the show stands on its own pretty well, IMO. The biggest problem I had was getting a grasp on just who everyone was and what their relationships were, which took a few episodes.


----------



## Grace Elliot

I'm reading the book and it seems to be going on forever....(just saying.) Enjoying it, but boy is it long on the Kindle. Any idea how many pages the DTB is?


----------



## mooshie78

Grace Elliot said:


> I'm reading the book and it seems to be going on forever....(just saying.) Enjoying it, but boy is it long on the Kindle. Any idea how many pages the DTB is?


http://www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-Song-Fire-Book/dp/0553386794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325711596&sr=8-1

A Game of Thrones is 720 pages in paperback.


----------



## tinytoy

Am I the only one who has an insane jealousy of those reading AGOT for the first time?


----------



## romac

Not to beat this into the ground, but man, I was so let down by Dance. I started reading the series 2 or 3 years ago, and after reading A Game of Thrones, I was absolutely mesmerized and stayed just as in love through the next two. Then I read Feast, and it just felt different, but I thought it was a little better than some of the mediocre reviews it got. But Dance was almost a total let down. All the waiting, the hype. I read 1000+ pages and never truly went anywhere.

Book 6 is going to have to come out strong and make some big strides in my opinion. But I read somewhere that the opening parts of Winds will overlap timeline wise with some of Dance, like Dance did with Feast. I'm afraid for where this is heading if he can't make a decision to get us moving. Two books now that had almost none of the shocking moments and drama of the first three that make so many people fall in love.


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

I finally read the first four ASOFI books starting around Christmas, since I loved the HBO series. Glad to watch the series before reading the books. Rushed through first two, but started skipping some of the more tedious chapters in the rest - some of the Davos & Greyjoy ones are deathly boring. I love world-building as much as the next fantasy / historical reader, but sometimes Martin overdoes it. If he did a prequel I could understand the necessity of certain family ties. Otherwise, it's just more names to remember. I've heard so much bad stuff about the last book that I'm not sure it's worth the price.


----------



## Zackery Arbela

GRRM really takes the Epic Fantasy genre and deconstructs it down to the most base level. Really compelling reading...just wish he didn't take so long between books!

On a side note...back in the 80's, he worked in Hollywood as a writer and producer on a show called Beauty and the Beast, with Ron Perlman and Linda Hamilton. Looks like its going to be remade/rebooted. Wonder if he's gonna be involved in some way....


----------



## RuthNestvold

I love the Game of Thrones series, but for the last couple of books, I too started skipping chapters, especially in newly introduced plot threads that just didn't interest me. 

Do hope he finishes the series someday ...


----------



## DYB

Well, I'm glad to see Martin is actually working on the next book.  One month down, 72 months to go!


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

Two things I admire most about Martin: ability to create genuine, unpredictable characters and his daring, such as killing off a central character in the first book. If the TV series hadn't prepared me for that, I would've been FUMING when I read Game of Thrones and vowed never to touch the other books. As for how long he takes, it's frustrating to avid fans of his, but if he takes his time AND it proves worthwhile (sounds like Dance didn't), I say don't rush the brush. Hopeful Winds of Winter will put the storyline back on track. I NEED Littlefinger to get his just desserts and soon!


----------



## Nicholas Andrews

Don't let what you've heard about "Dance" keep you from reading it. I thought it was better than "Feast." It is slower paced, but I enjoyed it a lot more on my second read through. Since I knew the outcome of the book, I was able to pay more attention to the details and just enjoy the ride. 

I would also be surprised if the next book took five years to write. The circumstances surrounding the delay of the last two were unique. The middle of the story can be the hardest part for many writers, myself included, and with a story this vast I can see how the "Meereenese Knot" as he called it could easily form. He still managed to get Books 2 and 3 out in a two-year timeframe back in the day, and he's also going to be under more pressure to not let the TV show catch up to him.


----------



## Nana Malone

I just watched the first season on netflix.  And I just ordered the first book on audiobook.  Something to help on those long commutes.  I'm curious to see how close they stayed to the book.  I know there are some changes to True Blood from Charlene Harris's series.

Nana


----------



## Jorja Tabu

I am grinding my way through Dance...I'm honestly not even sure why it's taking me so long, but my best guess is less investment in the outcome. It feels like the series grew so vast that pulling it back in and refocusing the attention after Feast is difficult...

I adored the television series and can't _wait _for season 2--I just watched the promos up on youtube and I _never _do that!


----------



## MichelleR

Nana Malone said:


> I just watched the first season on netflix. And I just ordered the first book on audiobook. Something to help on those long commutes. I'm curious to see how close they stayed to the book. I know there are some changes to True Blood from Charlene Harris's series.
> 
> Nana


The first season was pretty darned close to the book. Some of the battle-type stuff was scaled down, fewer characters, but faithful for the most part. All indications are that season 2 is going to diverge more.

A lot closer than True Blood.


----------



## Nana Malone

MichelleR said:


> The first season was pretty darned close to the book. Some of the battle-type stuff was scaled down, fewer characters, but faithful for the most part. All indications are that season 2 is going to diverge more.
> 
> A lot closer than True Blood.


ooh, I'm off to search out the trailer. I can't wait. so excited.

nana


----------



## Miriam Minger

Still mourning the loss of Khal Drogo.  

Miriam Minger


----------



## Jorja Tabu

Miriam Minger said:


> Still mourning the loss of Khal Drogo.
> 
> Miriam Minger


I skip all the scenes at the end of the season where he's sick... In the book, I didn't have such a hard time, but...Jason Momoa...Wow  He's hard to get over!


----------



## Lyndl

Jorja Tabu said:


> I skip all the scenes at the end of the season where he's sick... In the book, I didn't have such a hard time, but...Jason Momoa...Wow  He's hard to get over!


This. He was perfect as Khal Drogo and I didn't want him to die.


----------



## Nana Malone

Jason Mamoa and his fine....well you get the idea.  He was so perfect and well, nice to look at.  He will be so missed.  Conan was a hot mess, but I stayed engaged just for him.

Nana


----------



## KindleChickie

I hate to be the wet rag, but I have to give up on these books.  I bought the four book set for my kindle a while back.  Never got around to reading them, but with the new tv season fittin to start, I decided to dive in.

My first impression was the books are so vividly detailed where the tv shows are kinda bland or just lacking color.  I got thru the first book because I knew where it was taking me, but when I hit book two I just lost interest.  It is just too much detail and it takes forever for anything to happen.  When the nights watch with Jon are climbing a treacherous mountain, it took 5 clicks to get over it.  I kept thinking, there is so much detail, this must be important or culminate in....something.  Wrong.  It was just part of a journey that it taking the whole book with a whole lotta nuttin to show for it.

So I decided to go have a peek on the books wiki site and that did it for me.  The plot is just soooo convoluted and drawn out, with too many characters.  I lost interest.  I don't want to spend hours going thru banners, what their signal is, who the are pledged too, etc, etc, it seems never ending and pointless to the extreme.

Needless to say, the books are not my cup o tea.


----------



## Seleya

KindleChickie said:


> My first impression was the books are so vividly detailed where the tv shows are kinda bland or just lacking color.


That was my opinion watching the first few episodes too, I didn't get the impression, for instance, that the Starks were one of the really great families of Westeros, for instance most of what everybody was wearing instead than_ rugged and practical_ felt _ill-made and peasant-like_ to me.


KindleChickie said:


> I don't want to spend hours going thru banners, what their signal is, who the are pledged too, etc, etc, it seems never ending and pointless to the extreme.
> 
> Needless to say, the books are not my cup o tea.


Well, as always pointless is in the eye of the beholder, anyway that kind of information is part of the backmatter in the novels, no 'hours of going thru' it in the actual story. You can find thing like 'the knight wore the crimson and gold of Lannister', or ' the Bolton standard flew on the higher tower'.


----------



## Sean Patrick Fox

Book 6 needs the love and attention of a _very_ talented editor, because _A Dance with Dragons_ did not appear to be edited at all.


----------



## Anjasa

I'm loving watching the series through with my partner. I might read the books once it's over, but I really want to experience the show first. I'm loving the actors.


----------



## KindleChickie

Seleya said:


> That was my opinion watching the first few episodes too, I didn't get the impression, for instance, that the Starks were one of the really great families of Westeros, for instance most of what everybody was wearing instead than_ rugged and practical_ felt _ill-made and peasant-like_ to me.
> Well, as always pointless is in the eye of the beholder, anyway that kind of information is part of the backmatter in the novels, no 'hours of going thru' it in the actual story. You can find thing like 'the knight wore the crimson and gold of Lannister', or ' the Bolton standard flew on the higher tower'.


I'm sorry Seleya, but I did spends hours reading in book two about all the different houses, and banners, and who they are pledged to, etc.

Like I posted earlier, in the beginning I thought it must be important if the author is giving it this much attention, only to find it is just his style to go on and on over things that wind up meaning exactly nothing in plot advancement. I am sure I am in the minority, but I am comfortable with my opinion. I gave it a book and almost 2/3 before drawing an opinion. My opinion is I would rather chew glass, or maybe I will just stick to the TV show.


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## mooshie78

Yeah, the series is definitely not for people who don't like a lot of detail, tons of characters, complex plot lines etc.  Martin is very descriptive and it takes a lot of work from readers to keep all the characters and their motivations (and ties to main plot lines) straight for sure.


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## Nana Malone

I love a lot od description, helps me feel like I'm there, but even I had a hard time.  I think that's just the author's style.


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## MichelleR

I love all (or most of?) the description. Some of it is there for world-building, and some of it does come into play. Martin believes in Westeros and all the rest, and can tell you about it with such authority, that you believe it, too. This is the exact place where a lot of authors fail, and fail hard. I think if an author can know that much about their setting and/or characters -- whether or not they share all they know -- that they're on the way to one hell of a book. 

I get that it's not going to work for everyone, and in a different type of book I wouldn't appreciate it much either, but it works for me here.


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## JimJ

The blu-ray of season one is now down to 34.99 on Amazon.   That is a steal.  I'd have happily payed the original 54.99 price.  Can't wait to get my hands on it on March 6th.


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## Carl Ashmore

Looking forward to reading the books and will then start watching the show


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## LaurenFah

Carl Ashmore said:


> Looking forward to reading the books and will then start watching the show


I think I'm going to do this too. Added the first book into my ever-expanding "to read" pile.


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## Jorja Tabu

I skipped the feasts after the second book.  "The table was laden with honey laced goose truffles, greased pork roasts with pickled onions, plum diggle wumdrumps with crinklebatted unicorn fats...And then the fish course started..."

But a lot of the other extraneous detail I enjoyed--until _Dance_. I don't care--I'm breaking up with the whole series until the entire thing is complete. It's an important decision in a woman's life, to end such a meaningful relationship, but it has to be done. _Feast _made me roll my eyes for weeks, and _Dance _made me furious.


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## DYB

Jorja Tabu said:


> I skipped the feasts after the second book.  "The table was laden with honey laced goose truffles, greased pork roasts with pickled onions, plum diggle wumdrumps with crinklebatted unicorn fats...And then the fish course started..."
> 
> But a lot of the other extraneous detail I enjoyed--until _Dance_. I don't care--I'm breaking up with the whole series until the entire thing is complete. It's an important decision in a woman's life, to end such a meaningful relationship, but it has to be done. _Feast _made me roll my eyes for weeks, and _Dance _made me furious.


I actually agree with that! There are a few paragraphs of food descriptions I jumped over. But the rest I've read through - and enjoyed!


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## JimJ

The Stark kids sing along to the opening theme, from the commentary on episode 3 of the BD/DVD.


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## mom133d (aka Liz)

JimJ said:


> The Stark kids sing along to the opening theme, from the commentary on episode 3 of the BD/DVD.


ROFLMBO!!!


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## Miriam Minger

Can't wait for the upcoming HBO series of GOT!  Still bummed about Khal Drogo...

Miriam Minger


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