# Very Good New York Times Article on Ebook Prices



## idolguy (Dec 31, 2008)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/technology/11reader.html?hp

This is a very good article on the subject. As one individual quoted says, if the publishers want to charge more than 9.99 for most ebooks, I will change my reading habits. There are hundreds of public domain books I haven't read. I may buy one or two ebooks at a higher price. I won't buy nearly as many books as I was purchasing before.


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

> "We may introduce a book at $14.95 for a year and then move the book to $9.99 when we would have put out the trade paperback edition," said Dominique Raccah, chief executive of Sourcebooks, an independent publisher. "I suspect you're going to see a fair amount of experimentation."


Oh yeah, that's going to go over like a lead balloon. Good luck with that. People who wait a year are going to expect prices well below $9.99 for most books.


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## Jason in MA (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks for the article. That's another good perspective. It seems most of the media is concurring with the consumers of eBooks and is generally against the publishers.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Harvey Chute was quoted in the article!


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

Why is it that (many) publishers look at this as a "war" about pricing between them and Amazon? Why can't they understand that MAYBE Amazon, the most successful online bookseller (and probably retailer in general) in the history of the world just MIGHT know what they're doing when it comes to pricing books? You think Amazon wants to drive authors and publishers out of business? Of course not. They want to sell a whole lotta e-books and make a whole lotta money for themselves, authors, AND publishers. All while keeping their consumers (readers) happy.

Maybe the floundering publishers -- who lose money on 95% of their titles -- could realize that Amazon is on their side and might have some good ideas when it comes to pricing and connecting with their customers? Is that a crazy idea?


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## arshield (Nov 17, 2008)

I do think that authors and publishers have not made the case that there isn't much real cost to the physical medium that are not present in the digital medium.  I have heard that the cost of shipping from China to your store for a pair of shoes is about $0.30 to $0.50 a pair.  That seems incredible, but it is probably true for books as well.  And I have heard that most paperbacks only cost about $1-2 for printing.  

But when I looked at the last three books I wanted to buy on kindle the cost differences 1) no difference between kindle and paper, 2) 19 cents more for kindle than paperback and 3) was 29 cents more for hardback than kindle.  

So even by the publisher's cost breakdown the kindle versions are being over priced.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

One of the points that I disagree with in the article is that people new to ereading will not mind the new prices, since they will still be much lower than the hardcover price.  Amazon and some other stores discount the hardcover books, resulting in prices as low as the new higher ebook prices.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

David Derrico said:


> Maybe the floundering publishers -- who lose money on 95% of their titles -- could realize that Amazon is on their side and might have some good ideas when it comes to pricing and connecting with their customers? Is that a crazy idea?


Though I've been bitterly critical of MacMillan and their ilk, I have to admit that Amazon is trying to build market share and dominate the ebook business. Publishers find this frightening (they don't want to be beholden to one vendor who sells a majority of their product). So they have an incentive to try to rain on Amazon's parade. Doesn't keep me from rooting for Amazon (I don't think they will have the total takeover the publishers worry about). But that concern of the publishers is a valid one, unlike their (apparent) attempts to protect hardcover sales at any cost. It goes without saying, but all the preceding is my opinion only, not wisdom from Mount Sinai.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

I honestly do not understand what this hoohah is all about. If prices for eBooks rise, just stop buying them. Why get all worked up about it? I don't get this "I have to have this and if you don't give it to me for almost free I'll steal it" mentality that seems to permeate our culture. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. While I won't be happy over price increases, I can understand that publishers want to make more money. After all, it is their business. They are not charities and are not obliged to give their goods/wares/properties to people at cost just because people want it that way. Actual cost is irrelevant in these equations, or else we would be boycotting supermarkets next for overpricing honey, and milk and most especially vegetables that grow for free.


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## arshield (Nov 17, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Though I've been bitterly critical of MacMillan and their ilk, I have to admit that Amazon is trying to build market share and dominate the ebook business. Publishers find this frightening (they don't want to be beholden to one vendor who sells a majority of their product).


I agree. Publishers have a right to be scared when one distributor has so much market penetration. But the way to solve that problem is the opposite of what they are doing. They are trying to empower Apple by raising their prices, which will have the opposite effect.


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## chiffchaff (Dec 19, 2008)

Guido Henkel said:


> ...If prices for eBooks rise, just stop buying them. Why get all worked up about it?...


I think that's what a lot of us are planning to do - or at least, we will buy fewer books than we have been at the $9.99 price point. The getting-worked-up part comes from not understanding why publishers think they'll make more money at $14.99 if they sell fewer copies, vs. leaving it at $9.99 and selling more, and also just finding it hard to believe the profit margin isn't larger on ebooks vs paper. It seems like they're resisting ebooks as a legitimate format. I know I'll still buy some ebooks at $12.99 - $14.99 but not nearly as many as I did over the past year.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Guido Henkel said:


> I honestly do not understand what this hoohah is all about. If prices for eBooks rise, just stop buying them. Why get all worked up about it? I don't get this "I have to have this and if you don't give it to me for almost free I'll steal it" mentality that seems to permeate our culture. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. While I won't be happy over price increases, I can understand that publishers want to make more money. After all, it is their business. They are not charities and are not obliged to give their goods/wares/properties to people at cost just because people want it that way. Actual cost is irrelevant in these equations, or else we would be boycotting supermarkets next for overpricing honey, and milk and most especially vegetables that grow for free.


The publishers were already getting their money from Amazon. Amazon takes the loss on their lower prices.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

Yes, but there is a world outside of Amazon.


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## mlewis78 (Apr 19, 2009)

Guido Henkel said:


> Yes, but there is a world outside of Amazon.


The publishers get their money, no matter that some retailers are taking a loss to offer ebooks for 9.99.


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## nabrum (Jan 1, 2010)

Guido Henkel said:


> While I won't be happy over price increases, I can understand that publishers want to make more money. After all, it is their business.


Uhmmm, you do know that under the new MM/Apple Agent pricing scheme the publishers AND the AUTHORS will make LESS MONEY than under the current model?

No, it's obvious you didn't.


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## idolguy (Dec 31, 2008)

Guido Henkel said:


> I honestly do not understand what this hoohah is all about. If prices for eBooks rise, just stop buying them. Why get all worked up about it? I don't get this "I have to have this and if you don't give it to me for almost free I'll steal it" mentality that seems to permeate our culture. If you can't afford it, don't buy it.


Methinks this was the point of my post. If publishers raise the price of ebooks to these levels, I will largely stop buying them. I don't want publishers to give these to me for free--after all, it was Amazon who was paying their price and then absorbing the difference at 9.99 for most new books.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

nabrum said:


> Uhmmm, you do know that under the new MM/Apple Agent pricing scheme the publishers AND the AUTHORS will make LESS MONEY than under the current model?
> 
> No, it's obvious you didn't.


I have to admit that you lost me there. What, please, is "the new MM/Apple Agent pricing scheme" of which you speak?


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## Northernsnowbird (Feb 11, 2010)

I am a new Kindle buyer.  The problem is not one for Amazon but for the book sellers.  Apple has resisted pressure from the music industry and has kept its cut (song) charges down to 99 cents.  What about a Facebook petition?  Anyone willing to start that up?  A million signatures should make some impression.


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## comanche (Feb 11, 2010)

We bought the Kindle's because of the price of books. We were able to afford the at the $9.99, I know $15 isn't much more. The publishers are getting greedy.  I will never buy a hard book again.


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## TC Beacham (Nov 23, 2009)

It will be very interesting to see what readers are actually willing to pay - in the end, consumers decide.


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## angelad (Jun 19, 2009)

TC Beacham said:


> It will be very interesting to see what readers are actually willing to pay - in the end, consumers decide.


Yea, that's going to be an interesting development in our e-reader world.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

TC Beacham said:


> It will be very interesting to see what readers are actually willing to pay - in the end, consumers decide.


Agreed. I've stayed pretty quiet on this whole debate; in the end, it's the sales that will speak loudest. I prefer to buy books that are priced below $10 (same habit I had with paperbacks), because it suits my budget better. I'll choose my $9.99+ books very carefully, and limit it to the books I absolutely can't wait for.


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## Stellamaz (Aug 12, 2009)

arshield said:


> And I have heard that most paperbacks only cost about $1-2 for printing.


Okay, now ... I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but averaging this to $1.50 per copy, on a run of 100,000 books ... wouldn't that be $150,000 worth of costs that would not be incurred for the e-version? Are you saying that is insignificant and not worth saving?


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## Prazzie (Oct 25, 2009)

Guido Henkel said:


> I have to admit that you lost me there. What, please, is "the new MM/Apple Agent pricing scheme" of which you speak?


The MacMillan (MM) or "Agency Model" is the new pricing scheme MacMillan publishers pushed on Amazon. In the past, Amazon purchased ebooks from publishers and then set the prices, often selling at a loss. Under the new Agency Model, MacMillan (and other publishers who followed suit) will dictate the prices of ebooks. This is why Amazon will no longer be able to sell certain ebooks for $9.99 - the publishers, who generally have zero experience at setting retail prices for books, have decided that they want to try wearing big boy pants.

Follow the drama in this thread.

As I understand it, the new pricing model kicks in this March and will last as long as MacMillan et al enjoy losing money. Amazon, bless 'em, will be making more money under the new model.


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## JCBeam (Feb 27, 2009)

What I don't agree with and I've seen folks doing, is giving poor reviews on the book because they are not happy with the pricing.  I understanding being unhappy with the pricing, but giving 1-star reviews to books deserve to be rated on the merits of content, just doesn't seem right.  I don't leave reviews, but would never rate a book lowly because I was upset with its' price.  

As far as the actual "pricing war"; if I'm that upset about the price, I have PLENTY of public domain books (Classics) to keep me busy for the next couple of years, LOL, and I don't have to purchase the ebook at the higher rate.  Just as I had the choice of not purchasing hardcover books and waiting for the paperback after years of buying both and finally realizing I needed to cut back the spending thus waiting for the paperback, unless I really COULD NOT WAIT...same principle applies for me to ebooks.  Only ebook at this point I might overspend for would be the upcoming "The Girl Who Kicked the Hornets' Nest" since I've read the two books before it; but I can also make a trip to B&N to get the physical book as well.


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## Shastastan (Oct 28, 2009)

Guido Henkel said:


> I honestly do not understand what this hoohah is all about. If prices for eBooks rise, just stop buying them. Why get all worked up about it? I don't get this "I have to have this and if you don't give it to me for almost free I'll steal it" mentality that seems to permeate our culture. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. While I won't be happy over price increases, I can understand that publishers want to make more money. After all, it is their business. They are not charities and are not obliged to give their goods/wares/properties to people at cost just because people want it that way. Actual cost is irrelevant in these equations, or else we would be boycotting supermarkets next for overpricing honey, and milk and most especially vegetables that grow for free.


I totally agree. Shouldn't we get bottled water for free or just the cost of the plastic bottle. I've heard (on 60 minutes) that the water that's being sold is worse than normal tap water.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

I don't want to stop buying ebooks because 1) I invested $300 in a Kindle to read ebooks; 2) Arthritis in my hands makes it too dificult and painful to hold DTB's; 3) I love the convenience of my Kindle.

I totally believe authors - and everyone else involved in the making of a book - should receive their fair share... but I just don't get how an ebook could possibly cost as much as a DTB.


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

nabrum said:


> Uhmmm, you do know that under the new MM/Apple Agent pricing scheme the publishers AND the AUTHORS will make LESS MONEY than under the current model?


Not to mention that MacMillan, like MOST of the other Big Six publishing houses, already cut author's royalties by half or more on ebook sales last year--in spite of making significantly higher profits on those sales than they did on the paperbacks. In MacMillan's case specfically, there are ebooks out there with digital list prices of $14.99 when the paperback is $6.99. So even when the ebook sold for $6.29 on Amazon under the old model, MacMillan took in $7.49 per sale--more than the RETAIL price of the paperback! And yet "oh, woe is me, our paper business is dying, you poor authors need to take less so we can survive?" Sorry. I call bulls**t on that one. Their paper business is doing as well as can be expected in a poor economy, in a society where a zillion other flashy, blingy, "faster than the speed of light for our short attention spans" entertainment mechanisms abound, and where they operate in a business that assumes (depending on whose numbers you want to use) that between 5-8 copies of every hardcover produced will be remaindered back to the publisher for destruction rather than being sold.

Yeah, that's a smart business model right there. Clearly, it's all the fault of those terrible, horrible, no good, very bad ebooks.

This, for those who were asking, is the real issue. The publishing world has made it clear they want to eliminate or at least reduce ebook sales because they think it cuts into their paper industry. By raising prices, they'll sell fewer books. When they sell fewer books, they can say, "See, we knew no one wanted ebooks anyway!" Meanwhile, of course, their paper industry will continue to diminish, because it's not the impact of ebooks that's killing them, it's their outmoded business practices.

I buy plenty of ebooks at higher than $9.99--about the same number last year as I did on hardcovers in previous years. Actually, probably a few more than that even. I can afford the higher prices if I have to. But what happens is that it cuts into my budget elsewhere, and overall, I'll end up buying fewer books entirely as the prices creep up. There are 43 books in my TBR stash right now on the Kindle, and quite a few more than half were paid for, not free. None of those would likely have been picked up at $9.99 each, but at $3-4-5, they were worth the gamble. As many of those books are first in a series, they may lead to additional sales when I get around to reading them.

As for the true freebies, nearly every one I've downloaded from the Big Six has resulted in significant sales, as I've ended up buying the entire series, plus the newest release (probably still at hardcover rates). In some cases, I've also bought everything else by the author. In one particular case, I not only did all that, but I bought six of the author's DTBs for a friend, and can directly trace some ten additional readers (some ebook, some not) I've created for that one author through my own recommendations. I can also trace some $200+ in other series that I've bought due to recommendations based on that one "free" book. Most expensive damn free anything I've ever owned!

Tell me again that ebooks are the bane of the publishing world, Big Six, I'm not getting it. I've spent literally 10X as much on new books this year as I have in previous years. But I'm apparently the enemy. Were you really better off when I spent the same amount of money on secondhand books that you received no profit on? Because that's what I'll go back to doing if prices keep going up.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

Okay, I thought I had missed something, but this is all old tea.



Prazzie said:


> the publishers, who generally have zero experience at setting retail prices for books, have decided that they want to try wearing big boy pants.


You have to be kidding, right? I mean, who's been setting their prices in the past? The Pilsbury dough boy? The publishers have been in charge of their pricing and so they should be. Just because Amazon thinks eBooks shouldn't cost more than $9.99 doesn't make it a valid business decision for publishers. Amazon neither runs their business nor owns their products. The publisher does, and as such they can do with it whatever they please.

I find it funny how people keep complaining about how greedy publishers are, yet their own motives are driven by the exact same thing. If people want to accumulate every book they might be tangentially interested in and as a result expect publishers to give them away as cheaply as possible is every bit as greedy. Maybe even more so, because ultimately it comes down to personal restraint and a mantra my parents used to teach me. _If you can't afford it, you can't have it._

Books have a value, regardless of whether they are digested in eBook form or as a printed novel. You are not paying for the medium but for the entertainment value within, the price of which is up to the discretion of whoever owns it - meaning the publisher or author.

Let me be clear about it again, I am an avid reader and like everyone else I'd rather see eBook prices go down, but the reality of things is that there are a lot of peripheral costs associated with publishing books regardless of their medium. These costs need to be covered and simply saying, digital delivery is virtually free so the eBooks should be a whole lot cheaper is utterly unrealistic. These are business decisions that the general public simply doesn't have the insight to follow.


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## Shastastan (Oct 28, 2009)

"You have to be kidding, right? I mean, who's been setting their prices in the past? The Pilsbury dough boy? The publishers have been in charge of their pricing and so they should be. Just because Amazon thinks eBooks shouldn't cost more than $9.99 doesn't make it a valid business decision for publishers. Amazon neither runs their business nor owns their products. The publisher does, and as such they can do with it whatever they please."

Amazon set the $9.99 pricing for the NYT bestsellers in the past. Amazon paid the publishers for X number of books and then sold them for $9.99. Amazon took losses on these books because they paid the publishers more than what they were selling them for. This is historical fact.


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## Prazzie (Oct 25, 2009)

Guido Henkel said:


> You have to be kidding, right? I mean, who's been setting their prices in the past? The Pilsbury dough boy?


No, I'm perfectly serious. When we buy products for our shop wholesale, the wholesaler does not dictate the prices. I, the owner of my business, can choose to sell my items at a loss if I so choose.

Similarly, book retailers, not publishers, set the prices of books sold to the public. This is why new titles in bookstores are often sold at bargain prices from day 1.

Here is what Madeline McIntosh, President of Sales, Operations and Digital for Random House said on 5 February at the American Booksellers Association's Winter Institute meeting: "[publishers] have no real experience at setting retail prices."

'Nough said.


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## cruiseranne (Feb 11, 2010)

The New York Times article settled the dispute -- should I get an ereader?  The answer is a solid no.  One of the biggest pluses for the Kindle was the set price of $9.95.  Prices are going to skyrocket so that the kindle and other ebooks will become very expensive toys.


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

There are a few points of confusion. I will try to clear them up, avoiding opinion and focusing on fact:

(1) Paperbacks cost 50 cents to $1 each to produce in large print runs. Hardcovers cost under $2. The printing cost is a relatively small portion of the costs of the large publishing houses (roughly 5%-10% of the total list price of the book).

(2) _Retailers_ have historically set the prices of the printed books they sell. Publishers set a "list price" (the price you see on the back of the book), and retailers (Amazon, B&N, Costco) pay between 40% and 60% of that list price to the publisher. Let's say 50% to make it easy (which is what Amazon pays).

(3) Once Amazon pays the publisher 50% of the list price for the book (so, $13 on a hardcover with a $26 list price), Amazon can sell that book for pretty much whatever it wants. $13.01, $26, $9.99, whatever. It can take a loss if it chooses. But Amazon (and B&N, and Costco) chooses what price to sell each book at. This is known as the "retail model."

(4) Until recently, e-books were sold under this same model, and publishers often set the same "list price" for the e-book and the hardcover. That means Amazon paid the same $13 to the publisher for every e-book it sold AND every hardcover it sold, regardless of the price Amazon actually sold it for. Anything above $13 was Amazon's profit.

(5) MacMillan (and a few others) want to change the way books have been sold -- for e-books only. They want to keep the retail pricing model for printed books. For e-books, they want to switch to an "agency" model, where MACMILLAN sets the final retail price. MacMillan says, "This e-book WILL be sold at $15, and we will give you (Amazon) a 30% cut. You can no longer run 'sales' or have 'loss leaders' or change the price by even a penny."

Everyone can draw their own conclusions from these facts, I just wanted to try to eliminate some confusion.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification, David. I do believe a lot of the noise has been generated merely by people interpreting words/terms differently.

When it comes to the pricing, I am always assuming a "suggested retail price" or "list price." Everything else is not a "real" price tag because it can be all over the place and without any way or point of reference.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

I am continually amazed that the authors and publishers think that taking potshots (ETA:
the author in the NYT article discussing consumer's sense of entitlement and Wal-Mart 
mentality) at their customers is a good business strategy. 

I do have a few questions:

1. Why institute the agency model only for ebooks? Why not for print books as well?

2. When everyone discusses book pricing they neglect to discuss the value of being
able to share or re-sell a print book. How much of a discount should be factored in the 
price of an ebook because we can't share or re-sell it?

3. What is the publisher's cost of formatting an ebook?


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

Just a quick reminder that we all have different opinions and we do not allow attacking other members.
Thank you 
deb


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## cruiseranne (Feb 11, 2010)

I live in New York where I can get bestsellers for 50% cover price.  And because I read a great deal, prices are important to me.  I love a new toy as much as the next person.  But withe cost of ebooks going up significantly, the whole enterprise becomes too expensive.  And, add to this many good books aren't even available as ebooks.  And, if I drop an ereader all the books I purchased will be permanently gone.

If prices go back down, I'll certainly be willing to take the plunge.


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## Prazzie (Oct 25, 2009)

cruiseranne said:


> And, if I drop an ereader all the books I purchased will be permanently gone.


Digital products must work differently in New York, then! 

Ebooks purchased from Amazon remain on your account, so you can always re-download Amazon ebooks onto a new Kindle or onto your computer or phone. Non-Amazon ebooks/documents can be backed up as you would any digital items, on your computer, discs or drives.


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

As for the cost of formatting, it varies, but it is generally not a huge cost. I know it took me over a month to figure out all the ins and outs of Kindle formatting, adding a TOC, proofreading for special characters and dashes and such, etc. Some people buy "How To" books or hire someone to do the formatting for them.

Some books are "converted" by simply scanning them (which costs very little), but these books SHOULD be proofread and corrected and "cleaned up" before release. To do that properly takes at least the time of proofreading the book (several hours) plus fixing it. Of course, doing a crappy job takes less time.

For a big publisher, they would probably need to hire a few people with formatting experience, and they should be able to do the conversions relatively quickly once they've figured out how to do it.

Essentially, there's no fixed "product cost," but it does take anywhere from a couple hours to many hours of labor to convert. For a book selling a million copies, the cost becomes almost negligible, but for books selling in smaller numbers the cost is real, though far from enormous.


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## L Bracken - Hardrock books (Feb 11, 2010)

This Times article appeared on Publisher's Weekly (free subscription for those who might like one) and compelled me to check out and ultimatley subscribe to this forum.

When it comes to e-book formats, demand, devices and trends - every reader carries great weight, so this fromum provides great insight into what readers want, need and expect. 

I'm a writer, reader and publisher so will be paying much attention in the coming months to how the e-book market shakes out. Right now, it's in major upheaval. Kindle at least represents a kind of safe harbor for most readers and some publishers. To suceed wildy, it needs to be a safe harbor for all. 

I understand consumer frustration when it comes to digital book pricing, but as someone involved in both creation and consumption of content, pricing represents a complicated structure, sometimes causing frustration to be misplaced. Authors are usually the bottom-feeders when it comes to royalties, and often it's the publishers who decide when and if to release an e-book version at all. Middlemen (and there are many) always want a fat cut of the pie, and readers - bless them - can be voracious in their consumption at the expense of fair market value and at an ultimate cost of great content provided by paid authors. Please don't dilute the real power of a reader review with frustration at something that may well be beyond the author's control.


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## cheerio (May 16, 2009)

TC Beacham said:


> It will be very interesting to see what readers are actually willing to pay - in the end, consumers decide.


absolutely


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

cruiseranne said:


> I live in New York where I can get bestsellers for 50% cover price. And because I read a great deal, prices are important to me. I love a new toy as much as the next person. But withe cost of ebooks going up significantly, the whole enterprise becomes too expensive. And, add to this many good books aren't even available as ebooks. And, if I drop an ereader all the books I purchased will be permanently gone.


The cost of mainstream ebooks will be rising, this we pretty much all agree is inevitable. However, I would like to point out in this brave new world, there are many, many ebooks being given away for free, and many independent authors (many of whom are quite talented) who are selling their works at almost ridiculously low prices. Sure, many good books are not available as ebooks yet, but there is also such a rich catalog of classics available that no one with an ebook reader should _ever_ be able to say that they have nothing to read.

Also, if you drop your ereader, your books are not permanently gone. (1) almost every place you purchase ebooks from, including Amazon, will allow you to download the ebooks again; (2) everyone should be backing up all of their digital materials, on-site and off site; and (3) you can read the ebooks you purchase on multiple devices now, including your PC.


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## Malweth (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm totally in favor of considering price in a review. Most of you are probably in favor of it for other items... If I am buying a stereo, I want to know if I'm what I'm getting is worth its price. If an (e-)book is great, but costs 50-100% more than an equally good book (or the same book in a different edition), factor that into the review (including the number of stars).

It does appear at first glance, that the Macmillan Kindle editions of books are now priced equal to or below the MMP edition. This has been my only gripe about pricing, though I'm personally never planning on buying any Kindle fiction for more than $10.


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## Mycroft (Jan 10, 2009)

"I'm totally in favor of considering price in a review."

One problem with this approach is that prices fluctuate, particularly on ebooks, but that review will remain for years.  I believe that a book review should focus on the content of the work, not the price.


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

Malweth, you bring up a good point. When I review a toaster or a computer or a TV or whatever, I definitely factor in the price. Did I get my money's worth? If I bought a $10 pair of computer speakers, did they sound decent enough for the low price I paid? If I spring for the $500 Bose system, it needs to sound a LOT better to deserve a good review. "Decent sound quality" might garner 4 stars for the cheapo system, and 1 or 2 stars for the Bose.

I don't expect a $12,000 car to match a $180,000 Ferrari. But what about a $1 vs. a $15 e-book?

When books all cost roughly the same price (meaning all hardcovers cost about the same, and all mass market paperbacks cost about the same), book reviews can ignore price. In this new digital world with such vast variation in e-book pricing, I think it's fair to say, "This book was pretty good, but wasn't worth $15."

Note that I am NOT a fan of leaving 1-star reviews for any book over $10, even if you haven't read it. Just saying that price is a factor for anything else we review. Why not books?

EDIT: Mycroft brings up a good point too. But other prices change as well, go on sale, get cheaper over time, etc. If I considered price, I'd probably list the specific price I paid so people could factor that in if it became cheaper.


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## arshield (Nov 17, 2008)

What this shows more than anything is that most people, publishers, authors, and readers, included really have almost no understanding of basic economics.

There are two major economic issues that many of the parties just do not understand.

First, price does not equal profit.  You can raise prices but that does not mean you will raise profits because the demand curve on a particular product does not necessarily mean sales will continue.  It may be that profits will increase, but it may also be true that dropping prices will increase profits.  This does not always make sense to people, but it is true.

Second, issue is value.  Authors and publishers keep asserting that value (price) is determined by costs.  This is just not true, or if you are a good economist it should not be true.  Value of a particular product (which is what should determine the price) should be based on what the average person is willing to pay for that product.  It may be that you can have a market where you sell the same basic product at different prices.  But most of the time most products in the US are fairly similar in price.  If the producer cannot make a profit at the price where the customer values the product enough to purchase it, then the producers goes out of business.  If the producer makes more profit than "normal" two things will happen.  One, other producers will come into the market and, two, at least some current producers will undercut the price to try and get a larger share of the market.  The end result of the process is the same with both, the price will stabilize at a lower amount until another technology or product changes the market, which will result in another instability.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

arshield said:


> Authors and publishers keep asserting that value (price) is determined by costs.


Actually, I think it is the other way around. The general public expects that value (price) is determined by costs. It makes no difference for the fact how prices are created, of course. For authors and publishers, while costs is a factor, it is usually not of ultimately deciding importance for the end price. Sadly, too few people recognize and understand that, as you rightly point out.


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## Meemo (Oct 27, 2008)

VictoriaP said:


> Tell me again that ebooks are the bane of the publishing world, Big Six, I'm not getting it. I've spent literally 10X as much on new books this year as I have in previous years. But I'm apparently the enemy. Were you really better off when I spent the same amount of money on secondhand books that you received no profit on? Because that's what I'll go back to doing if prices keep going up.


Amen, sister - same thing with me. But those used bookstores and the library - I can go back there (once I finish reading all the ebooks I've stocked up on ).

Guess they're too busy defending the status quo to figure that out, though.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

arshield said:


> What this shows more than anything is that most people, publishers, authors, and readers, included really have almost no understanding of basic economics.
> 
> There are two major economic issues that many of the parties just do not understand.
> 
> ...


Another thing pushing the "value" down on "new" e-books right now is the increase in supply of e-books, many of which come from the public domain and are "free". Other than a few stand-by classics that still get printed from time to time, the vast majority in the public domain were simply not available to readers. They are now . I can hardly wait till all the back lists start hitting the e-market, I'll be able to read for years and years and years on books that have already been written and have them available at my fingertips. I should be able to wait a long while for the next Dan Brown novel to come down in price.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

I just spent all day discussing this on facebook on an Anne Rice status update.  She only pointed out that she felt so bad for Douglas Preston that she bought 10 copies of his latest book to help him out.  Well, that was nice of her.  But whatever interest I had in Douglas Preston (I had been eyeing his "The Monster of Florence") vanished when I saw his condescending and obnoxious comments about the American consumer.  I found a good deal of irony in Preston's belief that American consumers have a "sense of entitlement" even as he appears to feel some entitlement on how much the public should want to spend on his books.  I live in NYC and regularly pay $13 to see a movie; I'm not thrilled to do it, but I accept it.  However, I won't be spending more than $9.99 on a book and Mr. Preston is not entitled to my money.  

Most of the arguments in Preston's defense on the Anne Rice post circled around the notion that authors deserve to be paid fairly.  I don't know anyone who disagrees with that.  Authors should absolutely be rewarded for their work.  But raising prices of e-books won't necessarily increase Mr. Preston's profits, even if his contract with his publisher gives him a cut of the profits.  And I bet his contract with his publisher is a lot more generous than most other authors.  (I'm taking for granted that most writers aren't as famous as Preston and Rice and King.)  Why publishers want to raise prices on e-books is a mystery to me, as it seems to be to most here.  But here we are.  Ultimately we the consumer - regardless of what Douglas Preston thinks of us - will determine how successful they are and how much richer Preston gets.  He might be a legend in his own mind and think she's worth $14.99, but we the readers will be the judges of that.  

One other interesting thing about the price raise is that Apple has been the match that lit the fuse.  And Apple is the company that created the $9.99 business model with their iTunes store.  They forced the music industry to sell full digital albums at $9.99 (while record labels were suggesting $18.99 for physical CDs in record stores - you don't see many record stores around anymore.  I worked at Tower at the time of its collapse).  And initially individual songs cost 99 cents.  These prices aren't in effect anymore; most individual songs at iTunes are now $1.29 and full albums are well above $9.99, but that model lasted for some time.  So it's fascinating to see Jobs and Apple - who insisted music was not worth more $9.99 per disc - decide that books should cost more.


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## TechBotBoy (Jan 25, 2010)

$15.00 for an e-book (a book that has virtually NO production costs associated with it - no printing, no distribution, no storage, no insurance etc. etc.) simply isn't going to fly - certainly not in my friendly skys.  More and more this just feels like unadulterated greed on the part of the publishers.  

            - Tbb


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## Shastastan (Oct 28, 2009)

Mycroft said:


> "I'm totally in favor of considering price in a review."
> 
> One problem with this approach is that prices fluctuate, particularly on ebooks, but that review will remain for years. I believe that a book review should focus on the content of the work, not the price.


Ditto to that. Lot's of really great books (ebooks) are either free or priced very low. Their quality has nothing to do with their price.


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## skookum (Feb 11, 2010)

_I have PLENTY of public domain books (Classics) to keep me busy for the next couple of years,_

I bought my Kindle to read Gutenberg books. I was delighted to discover a favorite author has released most of his work to free ebooks. I'm sure I could read free for the rest of my life if I chose to.
I paid $300 for the Oxford Unabridged on CD's and Amazon gets my music dollars but why buy books unless your world revolves around the next thing your favorite author publishes? I buy books from Goodwill and the Salvation Army.
Before Gutenberg I was a book junkie willing to pay all for a fix. Now only rarely will I pay to read. I recently read a copy of "1945" I found posted in a book forum. It was excellent and at some point I'll purchase a paper copy. I won't buy paper often because for 30 years I've understood book collecting is heavy work if one moves.


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## Selcien (Oct 31, 2008)

I've personally been buying most of my ebooks from fictionwise for the past month or so, I assume that they will have to agree to the agency terms, which will lower their prices. If the Micropay Rebate stays just like it is they'll be an even better place to shop.


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## Rob G. (Jan 20, 2010)

DYB said:


> One other interesting thing about the price raise is that Apple has been the match that lit the fuse. And Apple is the company that created the $9.99 business model with their iTunes store. They forced the music industry to sell full digital albums at $9.99 (while record labels were suggesting $18.99 for physical CDs in record stores - you don't see many record stores around anymore. I worked at Tower at the time of its collapse). And initially individual songs cost 99 cents. These prices aren't in effect anymore; most individual songs at iTunes are now $1.29 and full albums are well above $9.99, but that model lasted for some time. So it's fascinating to see Jobs and Apple - who insisted music was not worth more $9.99 per disc - decide that books should cost more.


The irony continues if you consider then the music companies ran to Amazon, helped them create their mp3 store and then used that as leverage to get some concessions from Apple. I read a lot of insider stuff on the music biz and pretty much no one is happy working with Apple as the company is pretty control freaky, but they see it as a necessary evil.

Of course the irony train continues rolling along when you consider the major concession the music companies got from Apple was the right to raise the per track price for popular titles from 99 cents to $1.29. Surprising on one, in the last couple of weeks, the head of Warner Bros. came out and said their sales took a nosedive after the price increase.

Now you'd think that maybe these publishers, all of whom I believe are connected corporately to one of the major record labels, might look around and see what's happened. The future was staring them in the face for years and they tried to maintain the status quo. They might notice that the music companies tried to ignore mp3s, then tried to bury them, which only created a huge darknet of file trading. They've worked with Apple, but it's pretty much been Apple's game and Apple's rules. They've tried to raise prices only to see sales plummet. You'd think they might notice that, but you probably aren't shocked that they haven't.

(One exception; Random House. I've read a few quotes from them that lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, they've been paying attention.)


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## Scheherazade (Apr 11, 2009)

Ironically, since it can probably be pretty fair to say that Apple is the one that started this mess of a ball rolling... they (as in Apple) are now pushing television networks to all sell their shows for a lower price on itunes (99 cents).  So on one hand they're trying to be all "We'll let you charge whatever you want." to the book publishers, but then trying to do exactly what Amazon is already doing with books to television on their ipods.  And I really hope they don't expect people to pay $9.99 for an ebook once the paperback book is out.  At the very least they should be the same price... charging MORE than the physical book is pretty outrageous.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

More on reader reactions to the changes in eBook pricing: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/technology/11reader.html

Brad Stone of the NY Times interviewed me last week as part of this article - - our site gets a nice mention in there.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

Harvey, you are about 3 days too late with this info. 

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,19770.0.html


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

"He's created a monster!  It has mutated out of his control and is running far ahead of what he can possibly keep up with!"

Wait, as an evil overlord, creating monsters that run amok and out of control is _MY_ job.....


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Harvey, as moderator of this board I must INSIST that these two threads be merged.  

Seriously, only if you want to. . .you're the boss, after all.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Ack! Caught red-handed and red-faced. Merging those threads now!!


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

The Hooded Claw said:


> "He's created a monster! It has mutated out of his control and is running far ahead of what he can possibly keep up with!"
> 
> Wait, as an evil overlord, creating monsters that run amok and out of control is _MY_ job.....


^ That is *so* true these days!!!

It's funny, I had been watching the NYT online site for it to post that story, but missed it until today. Sheesh!


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## Eclectic Reader (Oct 28, 2008)

Victoria P said:
"Yeah, that's a smart business model right there. Clearly, it's all the fault of those terrible, horrible, no good, very bad ebooks.

This, for those who were asking, is the real issue. The publishing world has made it clear they want to eliminate or at least reduce ebook sales because they think it cuts into their paper industry. By raising prices, they'll sell fewer books. When they sell fewer books, they can say, "See, we knew no one wanted ebooks anyway!" Meanwhile, of course, their paper industry will continue to diminish, because it's not the impact of ebooks that's killing them, it's their outmoded business practices.

I buy plenty of ebooks at higher than $9.99--about the same number last year as I did on hardcovers in previous years. Actually, probably a few more than that even. I can afford the higher prices if I have to. But what happens is that it cuts into my budget elsewhere, and overall, I'll end up buying fewer books entirely as the prices creep up. There are 43 books in my TBR stash right now on the Kindle, and quite a few more than half were paid for, not free. None of those would likely have been picked up at $9.99 each, but at $3-4-5, they were worth the gamble. As many of those books are first in a series, they may lead to additional sales when I get around to reading them.

As for the true freebies, nearly every one I've downloaded from the Big Six has resulted in significant sales, as I've ended up buying the entire series, plus the newest release (probably still at hardcover rates). In some cases, I've also bought everything else by the author. In one particular case, I not only did all that, but I bought six of the author's DTBs for a friend, and can directly trace some ten additional readers (some ebook, some not) I've created for that one author through my own recommendations. I can also trace some $200+ in other series that I've bought due to recommendations based on that one "free" book. Most expensive damn free anything I've ever owned!

Tell me again that ebooks are the bane of the publishing world, Big Six, I'm not getting it. I've spent literally 10X as much on new books this year as I have in previous years. But I'm apparently the enemy. Were you really better off when I spent the same amount of money on secondhand books that you received no profit on? Because that's what I'll go back to doing if prices keep going up."

***I couldn't agree with you more, VictoriaP. I have spent waaay more (overall) in the past 2 years on ebooks than I had on hardbacks in the previous years. Being a librarian, I generally got my books from the library unless they were "keepers" that I just HAD to own. And the ebook freebies I've picked up have (more than not) resulted in purchasing other books in the series, or other books by the author (purchases that would never have been made, otherwise).

But to increase the ebook price--fuggedaboudit! I've expanded my horizons in reading by reading Indie authors for a dollar or two, and I'll spend my reading money on them before paying more for TB6 books.

BTW, VictoriaP, as a Children's Librarian, I *LOVE* your nod to my all-time favorite children's book!


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## Prazzie (Oct 25, 2009)

From the article:


> "There are people who don't always understand what goes into an author writing and an editor editing and a publishing house with hundreds of men and women working on these books," said Mark Gompertz, executive vice president of digital publishing at Simon & Schuster.


Why don't they explain it to us, step by step? I'm an educated woman, if an effort is made to educate the reading public, I'm sure I will be able to grasp it. Right now, it sounds to me as though publishers are selling me jpeg images and asking the same price as the original painting. Mumbling about how I don't understand the work and effort that went into creating the piece in the first place, hand-waving about artistic merit and intellectual property rights doesn't mean squat to me. Show me the figures. Explain the process to me and show me how many people you need to pay for converting the digital copy of the work into an ebook.

I am not an unreasonable person. I am willing to pay for ebooks. As an international customer, I'm not even hung up on the $9.99 price - I already pay $11.99 for NY Times bestsellers.

I just don't like being lied to and then treated like a child who can't understand the issue at hand. If this is not greed, show us why not, show us what's going on inside your company. Until the publishers are able to demonstrate the ebooks should cost the same (or more in the case of some paper backs) as tangible books, I'm going to assume they're flailing about trying to dig themselves out of a financial mess by taking advantage of my love of reading and technology. And I won't let them.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Prazzie said:


> From the article:
> Why don't they explain it to us, step by step? I'm an educated woman, if an effort is made to educate the reading public, I'm sure I will be able to grasp it. Right now, it sounds to me as though publishers are selling me jpeg images and asking the same price as the original painting. Mumbling about how I don't understand the work and effort that went into creating the piece in the first place, hand-waving about artistic merit and intellectual property rights doesn't mean squat to me. Show me the figures. Explain the process to me and show me how many people you need to pay for converting the digital copy of the work into an ebook.


I'll admit it doesn't have figures, but this is the best explanation I've seen. By Jerry Pournelle, author and long-time computer columnist for BYTE magazine:

http://www.chaosmanorreviews.com/oa/2010/20100208_col.php

Back in 1980 (approx) he actually wrote a piece predicting independent ebook publishing and some of the effects it would have (I'm old enough to have read and remember the original), so I give him more credibility on this than I do most people.

Costs he cites that I've seldom seen mentioned elsewhere include the fact that most books don't make money, or at least don't make much (especially by new authors, which you need if your business is going to continue to the future), and that because of debt incurred in consolidating publishing houses, most big publishers have a lot of debt service (or so he says, and I do consider him reliable as mentioned above).


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Debt, unprofitable books, advertising, editing, etc ... I'm still willing to pay for ebooks as that sort of thing happens in every industry - expenses get passed on to the customer.  Its the way things are done.  

I'm still not sold, however, that this is what's happening here.

Some of their concern may be to concern over a future bottom line.  But, I still think quite a lot has to do with preserving their pre-ebook financial model.  I'll pay more than $10 for a new release - pre-kindle I did that often.  I will not, however, pay more for a DRM'd ebook than I will a paperback as I'm just paying for a license to a single copy and not actually buying the book.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> I'll admit it doesn't have figures, but this is the best explanation I've seen. By Jerry Pournelle, author and long-time computer columnist for BYTE magazine:
> 
> http://www.chaosmanorreviews.com/oa/2010/20100208_col.php


Great article. I've been reading Pournelle's stuff since the 1980s, and I give him a lot of credibility. He certainly knows more about the publishing game than most.

Mike


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