# Question for KB readers



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Would there be interest in getting free copies of ebooks that are normally not free, in exchange for an honest review on Amazon?

I'm pondering a notion where we set up a sub-board, a kind of "ebooks for review" area, where authors would make available free copies of their ebook for readers interested in reading and reviewing.

Let me know if you think there would be enough interest in this, and if so any advice or suggestions you might have on it from a reader's perspective.

Thanks!

-Harvey

PS I'm setting up a similar thread to get thoughts from our authors on this, in the Writer's Cafe: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,166956.0.html


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Harvey said:


> Would there be interest in getting free copies of ebooks that are normally not free, in exchange for an honest review on Amazon?
> 
> I'm pondering a notion where we set up a sub-board, a kind of "ebooks for review" area, where authors would make available free copies of their ebook for readers interested in reading and reviewing.
> 
> ...


I think that would be a great idea. Though I do have to ask one small question. If the book is so full of errors that it is almost impossible to read, do we have to read the entire book or just leave a review that is hard to read?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Whatever is done, I hope it will be civil, sincere, and snark-free.

Betsy


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

sorry, i'm in the "no" camp. 

i don't like solicited reviews, i think it becomes difficult to be objective when you know the author and i know i always look askance at reviews that state "i was given a free copy in exchange for a review".

also, in my mind, reviews are for readers, not authors, so getting the authors involved can lead to some controversy.

and honestly, there is no way this will not become an ugly morass.  someone somewhere will get their feelings hurt by a review (or by a refusal of an author to gift a book) and you and the other mods will have a major clean up in aisle four.

oh, and harvey, you might want to turn this into a poll, so people can vote without having to comment.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree with telracs. This topic comes up with some regularity in the cafe and the consensus is usually that it's not a good idea. 

I'm not at all worried about a book "so full of errors that it is almost impossible to read" as much as the difficulty for the reviewer if, for valid reasons, they just don't like the book much. Some writers will still appreciate an honest, if less than stellar, review, but there are also some who will not be happy about it and might blame the program or whatever. And some reviewers may feel like, since they got it free and are doing a favor, maybe they should make it a bit more positive than they would normally.

I think the only way it could work is if it was able to be made, somehow, completely anonymous.  So the author did not know who got their book to review, and has no way of knowing which review is the one from the program.  (Except that, if you get a free review copy, you're supposed to disclose that fact.  ) 

Also, other authors who also have books available to be reviewed, should not be allowed to act as reviewers.  'Cause then if anonymity was breached, you could get quid pro quo ego stroking or back stabbing.

I can't see it working well without a lot of behind the scenes work by someone who has absolutely ZERO interest in the books or the reviews or anything else.

But, then, I pretty much never post reviews on Amazon anyway, so it would not be directed at me.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

It seems to be a Gordian knot of concerns from both readers and authors. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, everyone. Moving this to the back burner (but still open to feedback and suggestions on it, of course!)


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## Harvey Click (Oct 28, 2013)

From a writer's perspective I'd be very interested. I think the folks who post here would give honest reviews. I can't believe people here would let their opinions be "bought" by a free mobi.

From a reader's perspective, I would probably download and review books if their descriptions interested me.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

telracs said:


> sorry, i'm in the "no" camp.
> 
> i don't like solicited reviews, i think it becomes difficult to be objective when you know the author and i know i always look askance at reviews that state "i was given a free copy in exchange for a review".
> 
> ...


Getting a free review copy doesn't mean you know the author. I get advanced review copies from big publishers and self published authors alike through NetGalley and I've never even spoken to anyone from the publishers, much less the author themselves. I have not hesitated to criticize or give a negative review of a book I've received for free.

And believe me, I am firmly in the camp of reviews being for readers, not authors. I've spoken out many times on here about how I don't think authors should respond to reviews at all, even positively, because the reviews aren't for them. It's like showing up at a party they're not invited to. But the fact is, free review copies are and have always been a standard in the industry.

So yes, I might be interested in this for KB but the issue but of course, I'm only interested in history related stuff, which is limiting.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

No. Some authors can handle it, but while others may think they are capable of hearing honest, constructive criticism, they are not. This is from experience. You would think that authors who submitted books to review sites are ready, but again, no. 

This would somehow eventually backlash badly into this wonderful community. This has no place here. I would hate to see here what I have seen on review sites. And it WOULD backlash here, no matter what one hopes. Transparency would allow authors to hunt down the reviewers not only on Amazon, but also here. 

No
No
NO.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Harvey said:


> It seems to be a Gordian knot of concerns from both readers and authors. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, everyone. Moving this to the back burner (but still open to feedback and suggestions on it, of course!)


I think it could work. Lots of review sites work well. The reviewers could be anonymous if they wanted (obviously many names on here are not true names and any review sites only list the name of the reviewer by the first name). No reason why Kboards can't have a "review" section or a "review" blog. The books could be listed for request.

Reviews are harder to get these days and as a writer, I really just prefer that review sites/people contact me and ask for a copy if they want to review one of my books. I generally expect or ask that the email tell me where the review will be posted (GR, Amazon, B&N, Blog, etc) and if the request looks legit, I go from there.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I would also like to add that I do use review sites to get a feel for a book.  I also like to be told if there are typos (and how bad they are.  I can deal with a few, but I have my pet peeves like everyone else when it comes to certain things and/or amount.)  

I do reviews in a couple of places and try to cover that sort of thing.  I tend to review less often on Amazon these days and the most in-depth reviews I do are on my blog.  I wouldn't mind if the reviews were just kept here/on a related blog.  Some reviewers only review on a blog, some cross-post to other venues.  All of those things are helpful and I follow a couple of genre blogs that I think do a good job.  I'd definitely follow another one here if it had good reviews.  And I don't mean reviews that praise--I mean discerning reviews!


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

I would not do reviews for free versions of the book, but I do beta reading without any charges, favors or attached strings.
The difference to me is the target of my write-up and the hope I help out an author.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

A clearinghouse-type sub-board for offers of ARC/review copies would, as others have said, lead to plenty of headaches, I think.

Some seem to think an actual sub-board for reviews themselves is under consideration (I didn't get that from Harvey's original post at all).  I think that would be a really horrible idea.  Reviews posted to Amazon get enough grief in comments there and threads here.  I don't post at Amazon now because of it.  I agree with BTackitt 1000%.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Everyone has brought up some valid points. I'm on the fence with this one - readers grabbing the books and not leaving reviews, pressure to leave a positive review, and low-star reviews causing problems and animosity. It could work, but some strict rules would need to be in place.

I don't really have any interest though. I don't like doing the 'free book for a review' exchange unless I am absolutely sure I can leave a review in a timely manner, so I've only made the exchange once or twice.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

*NO*. Indies already get accused of enough review shenanigans (sadly, with some justification). The very existence of such a thing would just be proof of the pudding for many anti-indies.

IMO either a book inspires a reader to leave a review or it doesn't, and readers should be getting books in the normal way. If it's free, download it. If it has a price, pay for it.


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## quadtronix (Nov 7, 2013)

I understand what people are saying here about it becoming a problem for various reasons but personally (and from a purely selfish perspective) I am for it. It just sounds fun and I would be very interested in exchanging an honest review for a free copy of a e-book. But that's purely because I would like to get free e-books and I think it would be fun to write some reviews. As far as how well such a system would actually work- I just don't know enough about this kind of thing to speculate. I hope it happens though... count me in.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

crebel said:


> A clearinghouse-type sub-board for offers of ARC/review copies would, as others have said, lead to plenty of headaches, I think.
> 
> Some seem to think an actual sub-board for reviews themselves is under consideration (I didn't get that from Harvey's original post at all). I think that would be a really horrible idea. Reviews posted to Amazon get enough grief in comments there and threads here. I don't post at Amazon now because of it. I agree with BTackitt 1000%.


In fairness, the suggestion was for a sub-forum where authors could offer their ebooks for a review to be placed on _Amazon_. The sub-forum would not necessarily be for the reviews, just for the offers.

Either way, I would only do it if the authors agreed not to comment on the reviews.



ellenoc said:


> IMO either a book inspires a reader to leave a review or it doesn't, and readers should be getting books in the normal way. If it's free, download it. If it has a price, pay for it.


What is "normal" though? Like I say, free review copies have always been a part of the industry and are pretty normal, in my opinion. What is being proposed is no different from what NetGalley does, apart from the fee to have a book listed.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

history_lover said:


> Either way, I would only do it if the authors agreed not to comment on the reviews.


This is not the problem, the problem comes when they, A) Go complain in WC about the review they got from a member here, or B) and this has already happened to me personally, after I left a review on Amazon that was a 3star, the author tracked me down here and bitched me out in Pms.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> This is not the problem, the problem comes when they, A) Go complain in WC about the review they got from a member here,


I don't read the WC so I don't really care - but even so, I would still consider this a "response" to the review and therefore not allowed. If "no responses" was made a part of the deal, the moderators could enforce this. Anytime you leave a review for a book by a KB author, you run this risk, whether you got the book free or not. At least if it was part of a controlled KB deal, they could enforce a "no responses from authors" policy, a certain degree of protection you couldn't normally get.

Anyway, it's all hypothetical because it doesn't sound like even the mods are keen on the idea.



> or B) and this has already happened to me personally, after I left a review on Amazon that was a 3star, the author tracked me down here and bitched me out in Pms.


So add them to your ignore list and report them. This too can be dealt with pretty easily. Of course, it may mean more work for the mods but Harvey is the one suggesting the idea so it's up to him.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Hmm.  I'm not on the WC anymore either so I don't see those happenings.    

I guess from the comments here it would need to be a separate review site where no one really associated it with a particular name from this board.  A good review site is wonderful.  I rarely see authors misbehave on those, but it could be because they don't feel they know the owner or reviewer.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but many reviewers ban comments from the authors.  I allow authors to comment so long as they are in line, but if anyone gets political or obnoxious on any post, my delete trigger is pretty fast.  I also don't inform the author of the review; these are just books I come across and happen to review.  I doubt authors find me very often and I certainly don't search them out.

If a separate review site were set up, the site could request books like any other site does (or have a submissions policy for the book to be considered).  For example, I may get a request from site XYZ.  After checking out the site, I can submit the book but that doesn't mean that the person who wrote ot me is the one who reviews.  In fact, that's never happened to me.  One or two addresses seem to request the book and then the review will show up as "Holly" or "Devours Books."  

It's a darn shame that it has come to this type of conversation.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

BTackitt said:


> This is not the problem, the problem comes when they, A) Go complain in WC about the review they got from a member here, or B) and this has already happened to me personally, after I left a review on Amazon that was a 3star, *the author tracked me down here and bitched me out in Pms.*


This is TOTALLY Unacceptable behavior. Definitely reportable and potentially bannable. Bev, if you want to PM Betsy or I about it even now, we will address it.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Nah, it was a few years ago, and is over and done with. it was back when I was reviewing for Red Adept.I haven't even seen that author around here in a long time, I think she got picked up by a trade pub. I just want people to know the possibility exists of it happening again, because while we are indie author friendly here, (and I totally am, pretty much all I read is indie,) there are new authors coming here daily, and they have no sense of the community here. I would hate for something to ruin such a wonderful author/reader/kindle-lover interactive site.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

That's very gracious of you, BT!  But the point needs to be stressed that harassing people via our PM system is not allowed...and if any members thinks someone being abusive via PM, please let us know.  

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Russell Brooks (Dec 23, 2010)

It doesn't bother me to give a free book in exchange for an honest review. In fact, I do it quite often. It's one of the most efficient word-of-mouth marketing methods available right now. If you go through with this, then let me know.


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## WilliamGant (Sep 24, 2013)

I've read some bad press about the "book for review" practice, and while I have no problem asking readers or potential readers for reviews during my promotions - it is never offered as an exchange or quid pro quo.  With changing technology comes an expectation from a newer breed of readers who want transparency - and while they are encouraging writers in what many perceive as a power shift in the publishing industry between writers and publishers ... they're not too keen on practices that may be viewed as slightly less than ethical.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

I think it's a terrible idea. Unless it's a professional critic who can remain unbiased and articulate what they like or don't like about a book, you are asking people to read your book for free and they will naturally feel that since the author was so nice as to give them a book the very least they can do is say something nice about it. It would be the end of honest critiquing of books. (Shudder!  ) No thanks.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, in fact, it already happens all the time.  The question was really whether or not KBoards should set up a sub board to facilitate the distribution somehow.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

lmroth12 said:


> I think it's a terrible idea. Unless it's a professional critic who can remain unbiased and articulate what they like or don't like about a book, you are asking people to read your book for free and they will naturally feel that since the author was so nice as to give them a book the very least they can do is say something nice about it. It would be the end of honest critiquing of books. (Shudder! ) No thanks.


That hasn't been the case in my experience. As Ann says, it's already happening (it's actually always been a part of the industry) and I see negatives reviews from people who received free review copies all the time. I myself get ARC's from NetGalley and it hasn't stopped me from being critical when necessary.

The problem I have is with people who are hired specifically to write positive reviews. Sometimes, I'm not even sure they read the book, they are just paid money to write a positive review. This kind of thing goes on at Fiverr all the time. But that's not what would be happening here.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

history_lover said:


> That hasn't been the case in my experience. As Ann says, it's already happening (it's actually always been a part of the industry) and I see negatives reviews from people who received free review copies all the time. I myself get ARC's from NetGalley and it hasn't stopped me from being critical when necessary.
> 
> The problem I have is with people who are hired specifically to write positive reviews. Sometimes, I'm not even sure they read the book, they are just paid money to write a positive review. This kind of thing goes on at Fiverr all the time. But that's not what would be happening here.


I am all for giving a free book to a professional critic if you want an honest evaluation of your work. But if the copies are being distributed primarily to readers (which is what the original question stated) I think there can be a tendency to be kinder than they would be if they had paid for a book that turns out to be really bad. I have seen a few reviews on Amazon where someone criticizes a book that catches my interest and then states that they got it for free so they won't be as nasty as they could be, because after all, they didn't have to pay for it. (That kills my interest in buying the book right there.) I think statements like that do an author a disservice because they should be judged on the merits of the book and not have criticism diluted just because the reader paid nothing for it.

I recall when a famous author (whom I will not name here for the sake of kindness) ventured out of her familiar fantasy world and published a novel in a different genre and was criticized by readers for what they considered poor writing; they were vicious in their criticism, partly because of the price they paid for it. They felt that the book should have been better than it was with the kind of price tag that came with it. I couldn't help but wonder whether they would have been so harsh if the book had been a little cheaper. As it was, many of them said they were demanding a refund because the book was so bad. On the other hand, if they paid nothing for it they might not have been so cruel in their comments about the writing and the author, whom they accused of being delusional in daring to try something new, when the truth is she simply wanted to branch out and try a different genre. Maybe the book really _was_ that bad, but several people mentioned in their review that it wasn't worth the price, which made me assume that paying the price they did factored heavily into their criticism.

I can understand your viewpoint, but there are bound to be some slanted reviews if you give free copies to readers with the specific request to review it. My impression is that Amazon frowns on it and that is why they make that little "Amazon verified purchase" disclaimer above the review line.


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## Mark Young (Dec 13, 2010)

I think this is a great idea, Harvey--for writers and readers. Let us know if this comes to pass.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

If you do this, I'd like to see it done in a way where the readers who get review copies remain anonymous to the authors supplying the books. However, this would then require some sort of system whereby the exchange system (or Harvey and his minions) could verify that a reader had posted a review before s/he becomes eligible for another book. If done in this way, it would prevent authors from only giving freebies to reviewers they think will give them the best reviews. (E.g., if some picky reader named, say, "NogDog" were to give a one-star rating to John Doe's latest novel, not only would John Doe not want to give that old curmudgeon any more freebies, but neither would any other author -- except the really cocky ones who just _know_ they've written the great American novel.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Minions?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Minions?


Talk to telracs about joining the union.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

NogDog said:


> Talk to telracs about joining the union.


did i hear my name?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

NogDog said:


> Talk to telracs about joining the union.


Oh, good, you weren't talking about us....whew, had me worried....

Betsy


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## anguabell (Jan 9, 2011)

Perhaps for a start, it would be enough to have a sticky threat with the posts of the brave souls who want to do reviews, stating their preferences etc. And the authors can contact them via PM and go from there?

I also agree that the authors would have to promise not to respond in any way or form to the reviews they receive.

In general though, although this would draw a great deal of authors' interest, I am not sure the potential problems are worth it. Maybe something like a trial run for a month of two?
Personally, I would not be interested in participating (my twisted mind doesn't like "free stuff" in general) but I sympathize with authors who seem to have difficulties getting reviews.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

You know. . . . .if you want to write a review and post it here, there's nothing stopping you.  Feel free.  Post it in the author's bazaar thread, or start a thread about the book here in the Corner and share your thoughts.  Authors who become witchy or act like glass bowls (or rhyme with that) will not be doing themselves any favors since they're public and legitimate discussion.  AS LONG AS there are no personal attacks: critique the work, not the author.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

lmroth12 said:


> I am all for giving a free book to a professional critic if you want an honest evaluation of your work. But if the copies are being distributed primarily to readers (which is what the original question stated) I think there can be a tendency to be kinder than they would be if they had paid for a book that turns out to be really bad. I have seen a few reviews on Amazon where someone criticizes a book that catches my interest and then states that they got it for free so they won't be as nasty as they could be, because after all, they didn't have to pay for it. (That kills my interest in buying the book right there.) I think statements like that do an author a disservice because they should be judged on the merits of the book and not have criticism diluted just because the reader paid nothing for it.


Well, I have never seen this and again, in my experience, readers who have specifically signed up to be a part of an organization which provides ARC's are always pretty honest and don't shy away from being critical. Take a look at my blog, I recently gave a critical 2 star review to a self published book I got from NetGalley and looking at the other reviews of the book on Goodreads, I'm not the only one.

I suspect the reviews you've seen where people go easy on the book because it was free are books which were made freely available to anyone and not required to write the review and I think they may feel less responsibility as a reviewer than someone who joined an ARC organization and dedicates themselves to writing reviews. In my experience, people who are a part of the latter take their reviewers fairly seriously and wouldn't compromise their integrity by not being completely honest.



> I can understand your viewpoint, but there are bound to be some slanted reviews if you give free copies to readers with the specific request to review it. My impression is that Amazon frowns on it and that is why they make that little "Amazon verified purchase" disclaimer above the review line.


You are quite mistaken.

Amazon themselves provide free book promotional platforms. For starters, they provide thousands of free promotional books available to anyone and no review is required: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_ex_n_1?rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cp_36%3A0-0&bbn=154606011&hidden-keywords=-domain+-breakthrough+English&ie=UTF8&qid=1384381257

Secondly, Amazon have an ARC program called Amazon Vine, in which they provide advanced review copies of books to trusted reviewers. It's really no different than what KB is proposing here, or what NetGalley does.

The reason for the "verified purchase" note is an attempt to reduce sockpuppets - people who create "dummy" accounts and write bogus, mostly positive reviews of the product. These people may be the author themselves, an associate of the author, or someone merely hired to write the review.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

HL, you're right . . . if you're talking about responsible bloggers or reviewers.  

But there are a lot of stories that come into the Cafe about reviewers who slam a book because it's "competing" with some other author they like better. As if there were only one teen vampire romance novel! 

I've also seen authors post there complaining about a review that's "only 3 star" and basically asking if they should respond!   Some do and become entries in 'authors behaving badly': they rebut the review, point by point, via the comments when a reader doesn't give them full marks.  

I've also heard stories of authors hunting down reader/reviewers via their on line presence and basically stalking them and bad mouthing them for not giving them a good review. It's not frequent, but it does happen.

As a result, I've heard a LOT of folks opine that they won't review because they've heard these stories, as well as people who have flat out said that they've been less critical of an indie author because they want to 'support' them.  Which makes no sense to me: if you didn't like it say so. But it means that reviews may be inflated.  Or not -- if the nasty folks also have their say.

Anyway. 

Given all that: I think it makes sense for kboards at this time to stay out of it.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

lmroth12 said:


> I recall when a famous author (whom I will not name here for the sake of kindness) ventured out of her familiar fantasy world and published a novel in a different genre and was criticized by readers for what they considered poor writing; they were vicious in their criticism, partly because of the price they paid for it. They felt that the book should have been better than it was with the kind of price tag that came with it. I couldn't help but wonder whether they would have been so harsh if the book had been a little cheaper. As it was, many of them said they were demanding a refund because the book was so bad. On the other hand, if they paid nothing for it they might not have been so cruel in their comments about the writing and the author, whom they accused of being delusional in daring to try something new, when the truth is she simply wanted to branch out and try a different genre. Maybe the book really _was_ that bad, but several people mentioned in their review that it wasn't worth the price, which made me assume that paying the price they did factored heavily into their criticism.


I think price is absolutely a factor in the criticism of a product. The higher the price, the better we expect the quality to be. If we pay little to nothing for a product and it turns out to be a dud, we usually shrug it off and take the loss. If we pay higher end prices, it stings when the product doesn't live up to our expectations, so we criticize it and demand a refund.

And I agree about feeling somewhat obligated to leave a nice review in exchange for a free book. People who review regularly may be able to resist it and leave a professional unbiased review, but many others -myself included- will avoid being overly critical, even when it's warranted. Just another reason why I rarely participate in an exchange.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Mandy said:


> I think price is absolutely a factor in the criticism of a product. The higher the price, the better we expect the quality to be. If we pay little to nothing for a product and it turns out to be a dud, we usually shrug it off and take the loss. If we pay higher end prices, it stings when the product doesn't live up to our expectations, so we criticize it and demand a refund.
> 
> And I agree about feeling somewhat obligated to leave a nice review in exchange for a free book. People who review regularly may be able to resist it and leave a professional unbiased review, but many others -myself included- will avoid being overly critical, even when it's warranted. Just another reason why I rarely participate in an exchange.


I have to disagree with the feeling that price effects a review. I have a thread about my current reading project (I'm reading all my TBRs in alphabetical order). Because I'm reading books that have been on my kindle for a while, I don't know how much I paid for them until after I've read them, and usually, not until after I've written the bulk of my review. I've despised books that I've gotten on sale, or free and praised books that I got for $9.99 (which tends to be my high price point for e-books). I will however be harder on an author whose work I have loved in the past and who I feel has slipped.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> HL, you're right . . . if you're talking about responsible bloggers or reviewers.
> 
> But there are a lot of stories that come into the Cafe about reviewers who slam a book because it's "competing" with some other author they like better. As if there were only one teen vampire romance novel!
> 
> ...


Yes, it does, but authors/fans who do this will do so whether the review was from a freebie or not - yes, their actions might discourage readers from writing negative reviews but that would be true for people who bought the book too. People who are really concerned about this kind of behavior from authors probably won't take the free book for review deal in the first place. Therefore, I can't see how giving out free promo copies for reviews will inflate reviews anymore than normal.



> As a result, I've heard a LOT of folks opine that they won't review because they've heard these stories, as well as people who have flat out said that they've been less critical of an indie author because they want to 'support' them.  Which makes no sense to me: if you didn't like it say so. But it means that reviews may be inflated. Or not -- if the nasty folks also have their say.


Yes, but again, that's happening regardless of whether they bought the book or got it for free.



> Given all that: I think it makes sense for kboards at this time to stay out of it.


That's fair enough, I'm not necessarily pushing for it, I just think some of the assumptions and suspicions about reviewers who receive ARC's are unfair.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, I guess that's true: nasty people will be nasty regardless.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

history_lover said:


> You are quite mistaken.
> 
> Amazon themselves provide free book promotional platforms. For starters, they provide thousands of free promotional books available to anyone and no review is required: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_ex_n_1?rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A%21133141011%2Cn%3A154606011%2Cp_36%3A0-0&bbn=154606011&hidden-keywords=-domain+-breakthrough+English&ie=UTF8&qid=1384381257
> 
> ...


Perhaps you are not aware that even the free promotions are listed as an Amazon verified purchase, and I am well aware of the problem with sockpuppets. The reason for the Amazon verified purchase is to confirm that the book was downloaded from Amazon, whether as a paid purchase or a free promotion. Some writers in the Amazon KDP Forum have complained that Amazon removed reviews from their website by readers who bought the book elsewhere and then listed a review on Amazon's site. I have also seen posts on the Amazon KDP Forum by writers who complain that Amazon removed reviews that they personally solicited by offering free copies of their books in exchange for reviews. That is why I stated that Amazon frowns on it, as stated by authors who have learned that the hard way.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

lmroth12 said:


> Perhaps you are not aware that even the free promotions are listed as an Amazon verified purchase, and I am well aware of the problem with sockpuppets. The reason for the Amazon verified purchase is to confirm that the book was downloaded from Amazon, whether as a paid purchase or a free promotion. Some writers in the Amazon KDP Forum have complained that Amazon removed reviews from their website by readers who bought the book elsewhere and then listed a review on Amazon's site. I have also seen posts on the Amazon KDP Forum by writers who complain that Amazon removed reviews that they personally solicited by offering free copies of their books in exchange for reviews. That is why I stated that Amazon frowns on it, as stated by authors who have learned that the hard way.


I would be quite suprised to learn that Amazon removed reviews simply because the book was bought somewhere else, having posted those kinds of reviews myself. Unless the person claiming that has happened has an email from Amazon stating the reason, I would think it more likely that Amazon thought the review was hinky for some other reason. And, from my reading here, there is no problem with someone reviewing a book they received for free as long as they reveal in the review that it was a free copy. Lots of our author-members have stated that they give out review copies, it happens all the time. The reviewer needs to be up front about it, is all.

Also, let me note that Harvey has put this idea on the back burner for now...

Betsy


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I would be quite suprised to learn that Amazon removed reviews simply because the book was bought somewhere else, having posted those kinds of reviews myself. Unless the person claiming that has happened has an email from Amazon stating the reason, I would think it more likely that Amazon thought the review was hinky for some other reason. And, from my reading here, there is no problem with someone reviewing a book they received for free as long as they reveal in the review that it was a free copy. Lots of our author-members have stated that they give out review copies, it happens all the time. The reviewer needs to be up front about it, is all.
> 
> Also, let me note that Harvey has put this idea on the back burner for now...
> 
> Betsy


Perhaps if you purchased a book through an Amazon affiliate and posted a review on Amazon it would be considered acceptable by Amazon, and those sites are becoming more common. I have seen my own books listed on sites that are credited as Amazon affiliates although they are independent online bookstores.

There is also a difference between being offered a free book to review as a participant of ARC or NetGalley and an author posting a notice on their website that they will give a book in exchange for a review as some of these authors did only to claim Amazon yanked it for soliciting it. As I do not jump to the conclusion that they are liars, I assume they are telling the truth, since in their own words they admitted that they solicited the review in the first place.

There have been abuses by some independent authors on Amazon's website that have resulted in changes to it. The Facebook likes have been removed due to an extensive thread in the KDP Forum where an author offered to "like" someone's book on Facebook (which showed up on the book's listing on Amazon) in exchange for them doing the same for their book. A lot of authors jumped on this and in a matter of weeks the Facebook likes were removed from the books Amazon listings. Same thing happened with Tags; an author told everyone how to maximize their visibility by putting as many Tags on their own books as possible. Those have now fallen by the wayside too. Amazon is a great platform for independent authors to publish their work, but efforts on the part of some to manipulate sales have resulted in changes that affect everyone.

And, yes, I think it is a very good idea to put this on the back burner for now.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't care if I got a book for free or paid 7.99 for it. When I review I review the book, not what I paid for it. I do not lower my expectations just because a book was free. Why would I do that.    Doesn't matter to me. If I hated it, I'll say so. It also makes no difference to me if I got a Arc from Netgalley. I read and review them all the same. 

I started doing some netgalley reviews to hopefully get a bit better at them. But in the end, I just don't have the book report detailed type of reviews in me. 
I always review from the emotional end. They either like it or don't. If they don't, they can just not give me books anymore at Netgalley.  
I don't have different personalities when I review. So my review Arcs from Netgalley will be the same than the books I buy from amazon and the ones I pick up for free. I either like them or I don't. But then I don't review on Amazon, just goodreads and booklikes.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

lmroth12 said:


> Perhaps you are not aware that even the free promotions are listed as an Amazon verified purchase,


Of course I am, my point was that Amazon has no issue with the principle of free promo books, as proven by their own programs.



> Some writers in the Amazon KDP Forum have complained that Amazon removed reviews from their website by readers who bought the book elsewhere and then listed a review on Amazon's site. I have also seen posts on the Amazon KDP Forum by writers who complain that Amazon removed reviews that they personally solicited by offering free copies of their books in exchange for reviews. That is why I stated that Amazon frowns on it, as stated by authors who have learned that the hard way.


I post reviews of books I get through NetGalley and it's never been a problem, they've never been removed.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

history_lover said:


> Of course I am, my point was that Amazon has no issue with the principle of free promo books, as proven by their own programs.
> 
> I post reviews of books I get through NetGalley and it's never been a problem, they've never been removed.


I didn't say that Amazon had an issue with free promo books; my comment referred to authors who specifically asked readers for a review in exchange for a free book. They did not offer them through NetGalley but solicited the readers directly and claim they got in trouble with Amazon for it.

As I stated earlier on this thread I have no reason to believe that these authors lied about their statements, and will therefore give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

lmroth12 said:


> Perhaps if you purchased a book through an Amazon affiliate and posted a review on Amazon it would be considered acceptable by Amazon, and those sites are becoming more common. I have seen my own books listed on sites that are credited as Amazon affiliates although they are independent online bookstores.
> 
> There is also a difference between being offered a free book to review as a participant of ARC or NetGalley and an author posting a notice on their website that they will give a book in exchange for a review as some of these authors did only to claim Amazon yanked it for soliciting it. As I do not jump to the conclusion that they are liars, I assume they are telling the truth, since in their own words they admitted that they solicited the review in the first place.


Wow. I don't think I accused anyone of lying...and I apologize if something I wrote caused you to infer that I did. Allow me to clarify. I don't think honesty and lies are the only two options. I think people can be mistaken and make wrong assumptions based on incomplete data and totally believe what they are saying. That's why I said I'd like to see something from Amazon saying that that's a rule. I see it happen all the time here.

And no; the books I've reviewed were not from an affiliate, they were, in fact, from Barnes and Noble, where I got most of my paperbacks. I don't believe it is an affiliate.



Betsy

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 using Tapatalk 4


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't doubt that solicited reviews have been removed for being in violation of TOS, it has been discussed in the Writer's Café over and over.  

My understanding of why reviews for free copies of books were removed is because the books were "gifted" through Amazon - not a paper copy or a file directly from the author that can be sideloaded to an e-reader.  Gifting results in the equivalent of a gift certificate being sent to the recipient which can be used for anything at Amazon, not just the book the author is trying to provide.  

There was a time when that was considered a "paid" review then because they could get something besides the book and paid reviews are against the TOS.  Whether this policy has been changed, I do not know.  There are thousands of reviews from regular readers at Amazon and other places that have the required "I received a free copy of this book for purposes of reviewing".

The way the book is provided, how the solicitation for review is made, and whether the reviewer makes the required disclosure about a free copy will all impact whether a review is allowed to stand.  If we want to review, it behooves us readers to be just as aware as the writers of the TOS any site where we are posting our reviews.

I'm glad Harvey has put this idea on the back burner for now.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

crebel said:


> I don't doubt that solicited reviews have been removed for being in violation of TOS, it has been discussed in the Writer's Café over and over.
> 
> My understanding of why reviews for free copies of books were removed is because the books were "gifted" through Amazon - not a paper copy or a file directly from the author that can be sideloaded to an e-reader. Gifting results in the equivalent of a gift certificate being sent to the recipient which can be used for anything at Amazon, not just the book the author is trying to provide.
> 
> ...


Exactly. It isn't a free book in and of itself that causes a review to be pulled. Thanks for saying what I was fumbling with, Chris.

Betsy


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Wow. I don't think I accused anyone of lying...and I apologize if something I wrote caused you to infer that I did. Allow me to clarify. I don't think honesty and lies are the only two options. I think people can be mistaken and make wrong assumptions based on incomplete data and totally believe what they are saying. That's why I said I'd like to see something from Amazon saying that that's a rule. I see it happen all the time here.
> 
> And no; the books I've reviewed were not from an affiliate, they were, in fact, from Barnes and Noble, where I got most of my paperbacks. I don't believe it is an affiliate.
> 
> ...


I apologize if you thought I was accusing you of any such thing.  I was not, as my experience of you as a moderator is someone who would _never_ make a critical slur against anyone. 

My remark simply pertained to the fact that if those writers were not telling the truth about getting in trouble for soliciting reviews then they must be lying. And I do not automatically jump to that conclusion about people so I am therefore giving them the benefit of the doubt. Especially as several writers in the Amazon KDP Forum admitted to and even promoted the use of questionable tactics in order to manipulate sales. So when one or more writers state that they solicited reviews by asking readers on their websites to leave a review in exchange for a free book I ABSOLUTELY believe that they did just that. And the questionable ethics of asking someone who may already be a fan to leave a review of a free book is one of the reasons I would not want to see writers directly soliciting readers for reviews. If a fan loves your book and leaves a good review, great. But the writer should no more give a free book to a fan and ask them to review it than they should track down and stalk those who leave a review they don't like. At least in my opinion anyway.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

lmroth12 said:


> I didn't say that Amazon had an issue with free promo books; my comment referred to authors who specifically asked readers for a review in exchange for a free book. They did not offer them through NetGalley but solicited the readers directly and claim they got in trouble with Amazon for it.


There is little to no difference with NetGalley - authors/publishers offer their book for free to readers in exchange for a review, NetGalley merely provides a platform for authors/publishers to connect with reviewers, which would be exactly what would be happening on KB, if they did introduce something like this.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

history_lover said:


> There is little to no difference with NetGalley - authors/publishers offer their book for free to readers in exchange for a review, NetGalley merely provides a platform for authors/publishers to connect with reviewers, which would be exactly what would be happening on KB, if they did introduce something like this.


It is becoming increasingly clear to me that you have not really comprehended one word I have written. I spoke about authors who _directly_ solicited readers for reviews in exchange for a free book and stated they did _not _ offer them through NetGalley, yet you state there is little to no difference between the two. Actually, there is. It is one thing to go through an organization that is set up to provide reviews; it is entirely different to solicit directly from your own readers (read that FANS) by asking them to leave a review in exchange for a free book. At this point you simply seem determined to make me change my mind, or defend NetGalley and ARCs to anyone reading this thread. Please respect the fact that I am entitled to my opinion and gave it, as that is the purpose for this thread, to hear the viewpoints of others. And as it has already been pointed out, Harvey has put the whole issue on the back burner for now.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

lmroth12 said:


> My remark simply pertained to the fact that if those writers were not telling the truth about getting in trouble for soliciting reviews then they must be lying.


Again^, I disagree with this. It's not a fact. Sorry.

Someone can say something that they in all sincerity believe and can be wrong. It doesn't mean they are lying. It means they are wrong. It happens all the time here. It happens all the time everywhere in life. I have good friends send me stuff via email that they sincerely believe. I'm the kind of person who needs proof of stuff; and, 99% of the time, no matter how much my friends believe what they sent me is true, a little research proves them wrong. The USPS is not going to start charging for emails.

So the fact that I doubt that Amazon removed reviews for the reason someone said that they did doesn't mean I think that person is lying. Or that anyone in this thread thinks they are lying. Show me correspondence from Amazon saying that's why they did it, I'll believe it. Until then, I'm skeptical as I've seen just as many anecdotal cases where the opposite is true. And discussions here where the opposite is expressed.

I can wear my football team's regalia and they can win every time I wear it, and then forget to put the team t-shirt on and they lose. Doesn't matter how much I believe my failure to wear the shirt had an impact on the game, it didn't. But I'm not lying when I say "Darn, I should have worn my team t-shirt!" I'm just an emotionally involved fan.

Just sayin'. *shrug*

EDIT: Note that my skepticism related to one very specific statement you made in an earlier post, lm, about why Amazon had removed reviews, according to discussion in the KDP forum. Just wanted to clarify that as we've moved a bit far afield.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I can wear my football team's regalia and they can win every time I wear it, and then forget to put the team t-shirt on and they lose. Doesn't matter how much I believe my failure to wear the shirt had an impact on the game, it didn't. But I'm not lying when I say "Darn, I should have worn my team t-shirt!" I'm just an emotionally involved fan.


but. . . .but. . . .what about the beer commercials!    You mean. . . .they're not . . . . . _true!?_ . . . . . . .


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Again^, I disagree with this. It's not a fact. Sorry.
> 
> Someone can say something that they in all sincerity believe and can be wrong. It doesn't mean they are lying. It means they are wrong. It happens all the time here. It happens all the time everywhere in life. I have good friends send me stuff via email that they sincerely believe. I'm the kind of person who needs proof of stuff; and, 99% of the time, no matter how much my friends believe what they sent me is true, a little research proves them wrong. The USPS is not going to start charging for emails.
> 
> ...


Those writers claimed they were notified _by Amazon _ why the reviews were removed. Directly-from-Amazon. Straight-from-the-horse's-mouths. Why would they even relate that in a forum unless they were a) telling the truth, b) lying?

I clarified to you that I did not accuse you of lying. My remark was in reference to whether I personally believed those writers who claimed Amazon removed them and the explanation they were given for it. If someone claims they received an answer _directly_ then it should safely be assumed that they are either telling the truth or lying, and that is the point I made. And since I believe most people are honest, then *I * (read that *ME*, not you or anyone else) would assume they are not lying.

Here is my original remark in reference to that, by the way: _"There is also a difference between being offered a free book to review as a participant of ARC or NetGalley and an author posting a notice on their website that they will give a book in exchange for a review as some of these authors did only to claim Amazon yanked it for soliciting it. As I do not jump to the conclusion that they are liars, I assume they are telling the truth, since in their own words they admitted that they solicited the review in the first place."_

It should be clear that it was myself I was referring to when I made the remark about not calling them liars. And I brought this up in the first place to clarify where I received the impression that Amazon frowned on writers soliciting reviews. It was directly from the Amazon KDP Forum where those posts were made.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

lmroth12 said:


> Those writers claimed they were notified _by Amazon _ why the reviews were removed. Directly-from-Amazon. Straight-from-the-horse's-mouths. Why would they even relate that in a forum unless they were a) telling the truth, b) lying?


Because they were simply mistaken. That's Betsy's point.

I have definitely had cases where people have said to me, "but I got an email from So and So that said this." And I say, "Do you still have it?" and they say, "yes" and I say "may I see it?" and they show it to me and it turns out it's not from So and So at all, but from someone else entirely, though on the same general subject and maybe So and So was also named as a recipient.

People can make mistakes. Heck, I've even made one or two myself.    When something someone has said is wrong, I prefer to assume that they've just made a mistake rather than that they are lying, even by ignorance, or that they are purposely intending a deception. And if it's my place to correct their error, I generally try to do it in the form of, "I think you might be mistaken because here's what I found out about it," rather than, "that's a bald faced lie." Honey and vinegar, you know. 

But, again, this is WAY off the topic of the original post. . . . . . . and, as has also been shared earlier, at this this, the idea of a 'reviews wanted' area has been put back in the idea jar. Maybe we'll toss it around again at a later date.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Because they were simply mistaken. That's Betsy's point.
> 
> I have definitely had cases where people have said to me, "but I got an email from So and So that said this." And I say, "Do you still have it?" and they say, "yes" and I say "may I see it?" and they show it to me and it turns out it's not from So and So at all, but from someone else entirely, though on the same general subject and maybe So and So was also named as a recipient.
> 
> ...


As I said, (quote) "And _since I believe most people are honest_, then *I* (read that *ME*, not you or anyone else) would assume they are not lying." (Unquote) Yes, honey and vinegar, that's my middle name! 

That was in reference to writers claiming that Amazon told them personally why they removed their review, and that is where I received the impression that Amazon frowns on soliciting them directly from readers. It actually _is_ on the subject, but you are right; it's getting to where we are beating a dead horse now  and can safely bury the old nag and lay her to her final rest.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

lmroth12 said:


> It is becoming increasingly clear to me that you have not really comprehended one word I have written.


That's funny because I was just thinking the exact same thing about you.



> I spoke about authors who _directly_ solicited readers for reviews in exchange for a free book and stated they did _not _ offer them through NetGalley, yet you state there is little to no difference between the two.


Yes, because the principle is the same. Books being offered for for free in exchange for a review.



> Actually, there is.


I disagree and last time I checked, I'm entitled to my opinion.



> It is one thing to go through an organization that is set up to provide reviews;


The organization is not providing the reviews.



> At this point you simply seem determined to make me change my mind, or defend NetGalley and ARCs to anyone reading this thread.


I'm simply defending my point of view.



> Please respect the fact that I am entitled to my opinion and gave it, as that is the purpose for this thread, to hear the viewpoints of others.


Right back at you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> but. . . .but. . . .what about the beer commercials!    You mean. . . .they're not . . . . . _true!?_ . . . . . . .


Yes, Ann, like all commercials, beer commercials are completely true...
  

LM--

Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part. Your latest comment clarified things.



lmroth12 said:


> Those writers claimed they were notified _by Amazon _ why the reviews were removed. Directly-from-Amazon. Straight-from-the-horse's-mouths.


That's actually somewhat different from your original comment, which was:



lmroth12 said:


> Some writers in the Amazon KDP Forum have complained that Amazon removed reviews from their website by readers who bought the book elsewhere and then listed a review on Amazon's site.


My problem with the original comment was that, after being a moderator here for five years (almost exactly) and reading almost the entire forum of posts, I've seen many members, authors or not, claim that Amazon did A because the member did B, simply because A happened after B. Later, after more research, it turned out that A was not because of B, but because of something else entirely. Hence my skepticism.

Which is why I said


Betsy the Quilter said:


> I would be quite suprised to learn that Amazon removed reviews simply because the book was bought somewhere else, having posted those kinds of reviews myself. Unless the person claiming that has happened has an email from Amazon stating the reason, I would think it more likely that Amazon thought the review was hinky for some other reason.


And now, as you say that they did hear directly from Amazon that the reason the review was pulled was because it was bought somewhere else, it appears it is simply an unevenly applied policy... Since I have posted reviews of books not bought through Amazon, (*cough* B&N) my personal experience led me to think the authors must have been mistaken.



Betsy


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Yes, Ann, like all commercials, beer commercials are completely true...
> 
> 
> LM--
> ...


No problem, Betsy. I had several posts dispersed through the pages of this thread and so it's little wonder that something was misunderstood. 

And I agree: the beer commercials are completely true!


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