# Women in sci-fi/fantasy



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Just an observation. Listening to the Rocking Self-Publishing Podcast  interview with Leeland Artra (I didn't know you're a fellow Seattleite, Leeland!) and I liked the bit where he talked about "going to school" for writing sci-fi and fantasy, by pulling all his favorite books off his shelf and re-reading them, studying what makes them so great. I found it interesting that Leeland's favorite authors in the genres are nearly all women.

It's been taken for granted for a long time that women don't get a fair shake in publishing, particularly in certain genres (sci-fi and fantasy being two of those) and are chronically under-represented among successful authors. I've never been entirely sure this is actually the case, although I certainly acknowledge that a lot of sexism exists in publishing (as in every other aspect of society) -- I just don't think it's as stark or as obvious in publishing as many people have claimed.

Just curious what your thoughts are, if any, on the subject of women writing in sci-fi and fantasy. Was there once a huge block to women publishing in this genre, but not so much anymore? Or is it still there, but I'm just not seeing it because I'm not very involved in the genre? If strides have been made in this genre, are they coming in others, or are there still blocks up?

The interview made me think, so I thought I'd kick the question out there and see what others think about it.


----------



## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

_High_ fantasy does have a reputation as being male-dominated, but some of the biggest fantasy series--Pern, Earthsea, and Dragonlance come to mind--were written by women. I personally tend to associate urban/paranormal with female authors.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

If you don't think it's bad then you need to read this...

http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/

Several sciffantasy authors have come out about the sexual harassment and discrimination they have suffered for years/


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

It was MacCaffrey's short story "The Rowan" that put me on my current path.
That flavour of people-centred soft sci-fi is what has the greatest appeal for me. I leave the high-tech stuff to the boys   (She says after just spending two days researching thorium-powered propulsion)


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, there was a ton of discrimination and a block. Now? There is less of one but it can still be there.

Also, I still run into readers who won't read women SF authors because they are convinced a woman can't write good science fiction. Sigh.


----------



## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

Alas, sweet ignorance.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Vivi_Anna said:


> If you don't think it's bad then you need to read this...
> 
> http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/


   

Wow, I've been living under a rock. Or in Canada 
Why are guys so threatened by female writers? With so many amazing sub-genres and wonderful mash-ups, why worry about "territory"?


----------



## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

It's funny though - women dominate in YA SF.  You rarely see a male YA SF author - yes, there is Rick Yancey, and his book was fabulous, if a little convoluted for my teen male SF reader. But for the most part, it's the ladies who are writing SF-ish stuff for the younger crowd.

I write hard SF and I think there absolutely is a boy's club. I could say a lot about it, but it's not worth my time so I'll just say this - I will write SF for a female audience only from now on.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Yeah, more women probably write and read fantasy than men these days, but there's still a Mummy's Club kicking around that seems to think we've been Timequaked into a perpetual loop of 1953.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Kathelm said:


> Alas, sweet ignorance.


Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the situation's really like in this genre. I write mostly in historical fiction, which doesn't seem to have the same issues with sexism I have seen discussed in the past with regards to sci-fi and fantasy. Except for the usual, run-of-the-mill sexism.  At least there's not much appreciable Super Bonus Sexism in my genre.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

I must put in a plug for Broad Universe, an organization promoting and helping women in genre fiction--SF/F/H. Many good contacts to be had, and chances to read and table at conventions. I just organized the BU Rapid Fire Reading at OryCon last weekend--eight writers in 55 minutes! Some awesome readings--I added two books to my TBR list. http://www.broaduniverse.org/

And as to women as creators, I was pointed to this heartbreaking piece by the amazing, talented, sweetheart of a comics creator Erika Moen, who has taken a battering for years essentially for daring to be a female creator (not to mention queer), and whose health has gone downhill this year because of the stress:

http://the-toast.net/2013/11/12/a-female-author-talks-about-sexism-and-self-promotion/view-all/

It kinda makes me glad I'm laboring in obscurity...


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the situation's really like in this genre. I write mostly in historical fiction, which doesn't seem to have the same issues with sexism I have seen discussed in the past with regards to sci-fi and fantasy. Except for the usual, run-of-the-mill sexism.  At least there's not much appreciable Super Bonus Sexism in my genre.


There actually is some of that if you write military HF. There is still an underlying assumption that women write about bowing and curtsying but not battles. It isn't as noticeable probably because there aren't the powerful organizations as there are in SFF.


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I think there are more female authors than male authors, period.

It's kind of like everything else in the world right now, though, I think. We're in the middle of a paradigm shift. I don't have hard proof of any of this, but I suspect that most women are doing better than most men these days, but that the heaviest hitters, with the most money and the most influence, are still men--from authors to CEOs.

But the way things are looking, I think this is probably not going to be true before the end of my lifetime. The world is becoming female-centric, and we have only to look at the fact that the heaviest hitting sci-fi and fantasy blockbusters recently--Harry Potter, Twilight, and The Hunger Games--were all written by and loved by women.

Anyway, I need to get out of this conversation _stat_, because I'm kind of heavily political about gender stuff, especially misandrism and the absolute blindness of popular culture to acknowledging a)how far we have come as women and b)the unintended consequences to the feminist movement, and I tend to get foamy at the mouth. So... yeah.

*Hides*


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> It isn't as noticeable probably because there aren't the powerful organizations as there are in SFF.


That's a good point.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

When I saw this thread pop up, my thought process was like this:

Ooh! I write SFF. This is relevant to my interests.
Oh, wait, I don't write _real _SFF. My books have feelings and relationships and sex in them. I should stay out of it.
Hey, a blog by Ann Aguirre. Cool. Hmm... Wait, she's talking about how folks think SHE doesn't write "real" SFF because there are feelings and relationships and sex in them? _Ann Aguirre really?_ Are you _kidding?_
Oh. Heh.

I don't know about external sexism because I don't get Out There or participate much in the community, but apparently I have managed to internalize some.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

valeriec80 said:


> It's kind of like everything else in the world right now, though, I think. We're in the middle of a paradigm shift. I don't have hard proof of any of this, but I suspect that most women are doing better than most men these days, but that the heaviest hitters, with the most money and the most influence, are still men--from authors to CEOs.


I don't have to look further for proof of that than the college where I work. Almost the ENTIRE administrative and support staff is female. And the larger part of the teaching staff.
Most of the deans, VP's and the president? Male.
I coordinate our online learning section. Enrolment is 80% female. ONLINE courses. This ain't basketweaving. We're talking about Accounting, HR, Media, health studies, teaching certifications.
Also not wanting to get political about this, but I think most sexism is simply rooted in fear.


----------



## Sarma (Oct 11, 2013)

Ok, I probably shouldn't say this and I promise that I'm not a jerk or stereotype-er but, yes, I think there is a huge bias against women in this genre, much like there is in all things nerdy. Because male nerds (and I do not use nerd as a derogatory term, btw) have a tendency to be pretty sexist *ducks and hides.* Yeah generalization, but one that is based on personal experience. I think it's because male nerds are generally pretty low on the totem pole/social pecking order growing up and many of them tend to cling to the idea that women are inferior because as long as that remains true, at least they are inherently better than somebody. We are easy targets. All they have to do is throw a "get back in the kitchen" out there to make themselves feel better. And the guys that think it's all BS are just too afraid of being ostracized by speaking up. As much as I sympathize with them, their silence basically an endorsement of this behavior, thus perpetuating it.

I love nerds. I am a nerd. I recommend that even non geeky women date nerds, because when they aren't sexist douchebags they make some of the best spouses around. Heck, many of them are some of the least sexist guys around. But I'm also a realist. From a business, brand building perspective, female sci fi/fantasy writers should probably write under a gender neutral pen name, at least at first, especially when self publishing. Why not eliminate an obstacle if you can? Same goes for men writing romance, because ladies can be just as sexist and the guys.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

Sarma said:


> From a business, brand building perspective, female sci fi/fantasy writers should probably write under a gender neutral pen name, at least at first, especially when self publishing. Why not eliminate an obstacle if you can? Same goes for men writing romance, because ladies can be just as sexist and the guys.


I obsessed over this when trying to decide on a pen name for my scifi/fantasy work. I decided to go with an androgynous name. But as I'm writing, I'm like, "yeah whatever, I write books women would enjoy." The fact is that more women read than men. There are plenty of "nerd" girls out there that enjoy nerd genres. And yeah, we like stuff like feelings and relationships and sex along with magic and spaceships.

Romance, as a generalization, is a women centered genre, there is probably more limitation for men in that genre than woman in SFF. But hey, I think men can write that under there own names. Use your strengths, write romance for men.

I think because there are more women reading that trying to hide our gender so we can appeal to men probably isn't that important. I think it might be better to be even MORE appealing to female audiences. (This is my general attitude at the moment about the subject.)

I get what you are saying though. I had the same thoughts before I pressed publish.


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

As a female fantasy writer I haven't felt any bias against me but that could be because I don't get out much. So many big names in fantasy are women that I honestly doubt anybody thinks much about it anymore. I think there's a stronger sex bias against men writing romance or women writing military fiction or hard sci fi. In fantasy, not so much.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Dean, women internalize sexism against other women--that is, a female SF fan might look at a book, see a female name and think, "not for me, a woman wrote it. I like REAL scifi, not squishy stuff." Never mind that inside might be military SF so hardcore it would give David Drake the vapours.

Re: male writers and romance, maybe--apocryphally speaking, absolutely--but I think it depends on how it's packaged. There are some really successful male romance writers, and they're branded differently than female. I haven't had enough coffee yet to suss out the detailed differences, but they definitely are. And not branded as softer men, either--rather the opposite. I'll have to drink more coffee before I can make more sense...


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Here's the dirty secret about women (and minorities) in spec-fic that the big publishers and comics industry doesn't want you to know: They play us the lack of female (and minority) fans and creators so they can still use it as a stunt to temporarily boost sales.

I've had my ear to the ground, especially in the comics industry and they STILL pretend girls and women don't like superheroes and sci-fi. I've seen one guy assert that at a con panel--then immediately go and have his picture taken with an all-female chapter of Stormtroopers. They know they're lying and they keep doing it because they think we're stupid (which... we are. No. We really are.)

Meanwhile, on the web, the nerd-genres are MASSIVELY more diverse. In webcomics and webficiton, there is much better representation and you know what? the geeks everyone wants to paint as misogynist scum? They're a minority. Yeah, you have MRA jackasses and trolls who like to spout 'get in the kitchen' BS, but that's a problem with internet culture, which is no longer the same as geek culture.

The truth is, the Old Boy's Club in the mainstream both wants to protect their dominance and use 'minority' fans and creators as gimmicks. But the thing they don't get is... they're not the gatekeepers anymore. All the geek girls and nerdy black dudes (hi there!) aren't hidden behind the curtain anymore. There are new ways to get their work out there and for fans of all types to make themselves heard.

A finely crafted illusion is being pierced and very soon, kings who thought themselves puppet-masters are going to be pulled down. And it's going to be a beautiful day.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I made a conscious decision in high school (1979) to read just as many books by female authors as by male authors. This was how I discovered Ursula LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, and Marion Zimmer Bradley among others who weren't as memorable. I think this is the best thing we can all do to help. Buy books by female authors.

I also think that with vendor direct publishing and online social media available for reaching fans instead of having to attend conventions, the old boys' club has less power than ever. 

More than the publishing paradigm has shifted, though. Science fiction started out as being about, well, science. Science or a scientist was the main character in these stories. That's the paradigm the old guard are having trouble letting go. That was back when science was more novel in and of itself. It was always "hard science," though. 

Then, in the 1990s, Kristine Katherine Rusch was the editor of Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine. I remember cheering when I read her explanation that biology, genetics, and even psychology are sciences too. She unapologetically said she would be bringing in more stories about the "soft sciences."

All this is books and magazines, though. 

Movies and TV latched on to the popularity of the space program and launched another trend: space ships as the setting or aliens as characters became genre indicators. Star Trek, Star Wars, Men in Black, my Dog Aliens books and such are science fiction in the minds of most people, even though in reality they are fantasy, adventure, or even soap opera drama like Star Trek, The Next Generation.

I don't really have a point, except that the dividing lines between science fiction and other genres were already blurring.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Vaalingrad, if that's true, DC is doing it wrong. I have given up their books entirely after the insults of New 52. I also personally know some people who've written and drawn for them, and after one editor gave an artist friend the note "make her more slutty" on an already-over sexualized drawing I realized fully they're not making comics for me. Luckily, lots of other people are!


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

smreine said:


> but apparently I have managed to internalize some.


I don't think it's possible to NOT internalize some. It's pretty prevalent in society, even if you don't get out much.



Sarma said:


> Because male nerds (and I do not use nerd as a derogatory term, btw) have a tendency to be pretty sexist *ducks and hides.* Yeah generalization, but one that is based on personal experience.


Interesting observation. I certainly love a good marathon of the original Star Trek series and I read lots of sci-fi...I'd consider myself more toward the nerdly spectrum than the non-nerdly. But compared to the people who identify with "geek culture" I am not anywhere near the same type of person. So I'm really not aware of any issues amongst the True Nerds.

I remember seeing a music video recently where a bunch of women defended their identities as "real geeks" and I remember thinking, "Is this really such an issue that it needs to have an inspirational video made?" Apparently so!

Yeah, I suppose that kind of boys'-club mentality would spill over a lot from the consumers of sci-fi and fantasy entertainment to those who produce it (writers).


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> I don't think it's possible to NOT internalize some. It's pretty prevalent in society, even if you don't get out much.


Yep. When we make first contact with an alien race, we will discover that we are the Klingons.

I have noticed that here in Utah, most of the local con panels are either all male, all male except for a token female, or all female. Generally. Beyond that, I don't know how much sexism there is in the local scene.


----------



## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> More than the publishing paradigm has shifted, though. Science fiction started out as being about, well, science. Science or a scientist was the main character in these stories. That's the paradigm the old guard are having trouble letting go.


Science fiction without science is just fantasy.

But that doesn't mean you need to forget about characters: most modern novels would have been considered science fiction a hundred years ago. "In the future people will be able to fly across the Atlantic in a few hours and contact just about anyone on the planet with a gadget they carry in their pocket? Wow!"


----------



## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Yep. When we make first contact with an alien race, we will discover that we are the Klingons.


When we first make contact with an alien race, we will discover they're Klingons created by Trekkies genetically modifying themselves.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I am a woman. I dare to write (amongst a raft of other things) hard SF, you know, what those dudes call "real" SF. (although I say big BLAH to that. There are lots of different types of SF that can all happily coexist--I even write some of them).

For a while I chugged along quite happily in the hard SF crowd, not feeling particularly discriminated against, albeit a bit of novelty at times. I was often the only woman in discussions, but hey, I worked in science and I'm kinda used to that.

Then an influential man in publishing told me that basically I shouldn't bother submitting any hard SF to his fairly major genre press because I'm a woman.
I kinda buy subconscious  discrimination. It stinks and we need to work at it, but the blatancy of this simply floored me.

You'll find my blog post about it linked in some of those discussions mentioned upthread.

I haven't really written an awful lot of hard SF since. For one, it's a heck of a lot of work.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I think it's precisely because female SF authors include confusing concepts in their books, like relationships and love.

I can get my mind around paradox-free time travel and wormholes and quantum supercomputers and warp drives, but if some authors are going to expect me to understand sex . . . they're gonna lose me. And I don't think I'm the only geek with this problem.


----------



## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I think it's precisely because female SF authors include confusing concepts in their books, like relationships and love.
> 
> I can get my mind around paradox-free time travel and wormholes and quantum supercomputers and warp drives, but if some authors are going to expect me to understand sex . . . they're gonna lose me. And I don't think I'm the only geek with this problem.


Just wait until I publish my magnum opus, "Banished to the FRIEND ZONE", the first in my Fedorapolis series. It'll all make sense.


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I think it's precisely because female SF authors include confusing concepts in their books, like relationships and love.
> 
> I can get my mind around paradox-free time travel and wormholes and quantum supercomputers and warp drives, but if some authors are going to expect me to understand sex . . . they're gonna lose me. And I don't think I'm the only geek with this problem.


Amen!


----------



## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Mcoorlim said:


> Just wait until I publish my magnum opus, "Banished to the FRIEND ZONE", the first in my Fedorapolis series. It'll all make sense.


Okay, now who's going to come clean the coffee spray off of my computer screen for that one, hmm?


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Vivi_Anna said:


> If you don't think it's bad then you need to read this...
> 
> http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/
> 
> Several sciffantasy authors have come out about the sexual harassment and discrimination they have suffered for years/


When I saw Ann Aguirre's post I couldn't help but think how supportive the self-publishing system is for female authors. It's crazy.


----------



## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

I am against using a male or androgynous pen name when writing science fiction.  When I beat a man at his own game, I want him to know it was a woman who did it.


----------



## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I suppose such gender-bias is more a concern for those who wish to be traditionally published. But self-published authors have not so much to worry about. Write what you want to write and let the market sort it out. If you worry that a female-dominated readership won't read the work of a female author, I don't understand. If you worry that the preponderance of SF/F readers are male and hold the bias, well, write a great book and prove them wrong.

I wonder whether the bias influenced Mary Shelley to first publish Frankenstein anonymously. Oh, wait. Her book is considered among the very first of SF novels. There could have been no bias because there was no genre.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

brendajcarlton said:


> I am against using a male or androgynous pen name when writing science fiction.


I would be, too. But I don't have a choice


----------



## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

brendajcarlton said:


> I am against using a male or androgynous pen name when writing science fiction. When I beat a man at his own game, I want him to know it was a woman who did it.


This. 

But there's a funny thing that happens when a woman's name is on the publication. My short story "Mars: A Traveler's Guide" doesn't even have a protagonist. It's a series of entries in a "help" system for Mars tourists. I didn't think much about who was accessing the database, I was mostly worrying about setting up the "what's going on here" experience for the reader and creating the inevitable. If I thought about it at all, I think I was hoping that readers would find themselves on the other side of the conversation, whether male or female.

But a funny thing happened when the story was published -- in all the reviews, everyone assumed that the nonexistent protagonist was female.

Regarding male pseudonyms, though, are you guys familiar with Silverberg's forward to the Tiptree story collection where he claims she absolutely has to be male? It's a hoot!


----------



## AbbyBabble (Mar 16, 2013)

As others have said, most of the people who work in SFF publishing and more than half of SFF readers are female.  So there's ostensibly no bias against women.  But .............

My favorite SFF authors are all male.  Epic series and runaway successes tend to be written by male authors (unless it's YA).  George RR Martin, John Scalzi, Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, maybe even Scott Sigler and Hugh Howey, etc., are household name brand authors.  Their female peers aren't--and I'd bet they sell fewer copies, too (unless it's YA).  Personally, when I'm looking for a new SFF book to enjoy, I inwardly hesitate to try a female author.  Why?  Because I expect that it's going to focus on the romance, and the main character will be a snarky female detective or a whiny teenage girl.  Beyond that, I expect mediocre word-building, characters, and plot. I expect weird sex stuff to be the highlight of the book's 'wow' factor.

That sounds horrible and harsh.  It's doubly hard for me to admit my bias, because I am a female writer of SFF.  I don't consider my own work to be like those others--I consider myself on a tier with the authors I admire.  

So I'm worried that readers will hesitate to buy my books because of those expectations, and I've considered using a male pseudonym. 

If most of your favorite authors are female, and you enjoy SFF work by females, then you might be aiming at a different section of the market, and you probably don't have anything to worry about.  But if you're going for the audience that appreciates Martin, Scalzi, Sanderson, Rothfuss, Howey, et al., then I suspect there is a bias.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I suppose the question, then, is: who are the readers and what do they want?

IF sci-fi readers are increasingly female, are they looking for hard sci-fi? Are they looking for romance and sexy bits? Can these things be combined and still keep the science in science fiction?
While I don't have the chutzpa to put myself along Hugh or Scalzi, it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to write for what the readers want, if sales are what you're after.

I've had comments about my books either way. Some readers want more smexy stuff (women) and I have a considerable list of male readers on my mail list and among my reviews that seem to appreciate my female heroine who is neither whiny nor snarky. She's a woman with a tough job.
This actually makes it a little hard to write to my existing readers - I have no idea how to keep walking that line.

So, I'm less concerned with the gender of the author than I with : where the sales at?


----------



## swcleveland (Jun 6, 2010)

Female scifi writers!!! 

Elizabeth Bear
CJ Cherryh
Tanya Huff
Kay Kenyon
Karen Lowachee
Sandra McDonald
Sharon Lee
Anne McCaffrey
Jody Lynn Nye
Elizabeth Moon
Karen Travis
Linnea Sinclair
Kristine Rusch
Joan D. Vinge
Cherie Priest

I know there are more (these are the ones that leap to mind).  Obviously outnumbered by males in the field, but I can't say I know anyone in particular who pays any attention to gender when choosing what to read.


----------



## swcleveland (Jun 6, 2010)

Forgot Andre Norton.

I've heard (don't know if it's true, but could be) that her publisher(s) did hide her gender at the time.


----------



## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

AbbyBabble said:


> So I'm worried that readers will hesitate to buy my books because of those expectations, and I've considered using a male pseudonym.


When you're an unknown and readers are coming across your books at random, maybe.

But one of the biggest sources, if not the biggest source, of book purchases is a recommendation from someone who read the book and liked it, be it a friend, review, or whatever. If a friend or trusted reviewer says 'this book is great, you've got to read it', they're unlikely to care who wrote it.

And getting to that point is hard for any new writer.


----------



## Rob Lopez (Jun 19, 2012)

swcleveland said:


> Female scifi writers!!!
> 
> Elizabeth Bear
> CJ Cherryh
> ...


But can you make a similar list of male authors (using male names) in Romance? And would it be as long?

There was a thread here recently about men writing in Romance, and several female posters remarked on the trend of women preferring Romance that was written by women. No one screamed 'sexism' then. Several male writers commented on the need to use female pen-names. No one complained about the bar to male entry into Romance. In fact, I don't think the word 'discrimination' even came up.

I know it's a bien pensant view to assume sexism in the industry because there's sexism in the world, blah, blah, but really, for you female SFF writers out there, how 'oppressed' do you feel? What 'barriers' prevent you from writing in the genre, apart from the usual ones about finding readers in your chosen market?


----------



## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

RuthNestvold said:


> But a funny thing happened when the story was published -- in all the reviews, everyone assumed that the nonexistent protagonist was female.


Possibly because men refuse to read travel guides or stop to ask for directions?

I know a couple of women who write hard sci-fi, which isn't a genre I even read very often, let alone have any interest in writing.

I think that internalized sexism may be the main problem here, though certainly there's plenty of sexism among male nerds (my husband and his friends have occasional less-than-exemplary moments). There was an article I read somewhere which had to do with the proportions of male and female authors published by some major publisher (in the UK) and the editor/person who wrote the article found out that they were publishing female and male authors in the same proportion as the submissions they were getting. That is, women didn't send out as much work, for whatever reason.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I think it's precisely because female SF authors include confusing concepts in their books, like relationships and love.
> 
> I can get my mind around paradox-free time travel and wormholes and quantum supercomputers and warp drives, but if some authors are going to expect me to understand sex . . . they're gonna lose me. And I don't think I'm the only geek with this problem.


LOVE?

WHAT IS LOVE?










AWWWWW, YEAH, pulls a Gamesters of Triskelion reference out of her butt, WHO'S THE NERD NOW?


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> I suppose the question, then, is: who are the readers and what do they want?
> 
> IF sci-fi readers are increasingly female, are they looking for hard sci-fi? Are they looking for romance and sexy bits? Can these things be combined and still keep the science in science fiction?


Robert Heinlein seemed to manage this.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Ruth, the reason why everyone thought the protagonist was female is because the author is female. If you stick a male author name on a first-person or unspecified-gender story, they'll assume the MC is male.

And I really can't get over the girl/boy cooties in this thread. People, aren't we just perpetuating the crap when we assume (however jokingly) that men don't want to read about character and love, even those in SF.


----------



## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> LOVE?
> 
> WHAT IS LOVE?


BABY, DON'T HURT ME.

DON'T HURT ME.

NO MORE.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> And I really can't get over the girl/boy cooties in this thread. People, aren't we just perpetuating the crap when we assume (however jokingly) that men don't want to read about character and love, even those in SF.


My thoughts exactly, except you're politer than I am.


----------



## AutumnKQ (Jul 27, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I think it's precisely because female SF authors include confusing concepts in their books, like relationships and love.
> 
> I can get my mind around paradox-free time travel and wormholes and quantum supercomputers and warp drives, but if some authors are going to expect me to understand sex . . . they're gonna lose me. And I don't think I'm the only geek with this problem.


lol You wrote such tender feelings in Wool <3. That old lovelorn couple really got me.

---
So... I just revised the love scene in my sff novella. I decided to fade to black, because it felt right.

This whole thread is activating my mental middle finger in a big way. (It lives in the twelve-year-old sector of my brain.)

I was originally publishing my science fiction as A. E. Kalquist. Then I decided - screw it- I'm a woman, I write about things *I* care about and I want to write stories set in the future that are full of the things I love most in all the sci-fi shows I've watched and games I've played. I'm a woman and I won't apologize for it or hide it.

And if you're a reader who doesn't think women can write great science fiction? Wonderful! You've self-selected out of a series you'll probably hate. We're not meant for each other.

I honestly didn't like sci-fi until my husband convinced me to play Mass Effect. I fell in love with the story... and Kaidan. bwahaha. Then I went on a sci-fi media binge. But I still don't get pulled into most of the literature. (Though I love dystopian stories. Wool kept me reading all night long, in one sitting. Hadn't done that in years.)

And someone else mentioned it... a lot of the science fiction out there relies heavily on the science and not on characterization. Most humans want to experience the stories they read. If you can't make readers care about your characters, you'll lose most them. I think the focus on tech, weaponry, and laboratories is why many women *don't* want to read sci-fi. I can't get half my girl friends to even watch BSG... it's the title that throws them. When I do get them to watch it, they're hooked for the same reasons I was. And those reasons have nothing to do with space battles.

And the thing I like least about this whole debate (which I've been reading about for months), is the underlying assumption that _the way women enjoy their stories is somehow inferior to the way men enjoy their stories._

It shows through when women defend what they like or create as being "real" science fiction, and it comes through when men defend the women who create "real" science fiction. As if stories that focus on relationships are "lesser"... as if the exclusion of long paragraphs about how tech works renders the book "fantasy" instead of science fiction. I don't need to tell (bore?) the reader how all my tech works in order for it to work (or be based on science.) Ridiculous.

/rant
(And off to turn this into a post on my blog.)


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

But, for all that's dear...

Who the [bleep] says a story can't have science AND characterisation? Why must we perpetuate this dichotomy? Because there are plenty of writers (some even mentioned upthread) who do just that.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Swcleveland, no one is saying women don't write SF. It's the reception they get. They are dismissed more often, reviewed less, win fewer awards and are criticized more harshly. I linked this at the beginning of this thread, but I'll do it again:

http://the-toast.net/2013/11/12/a-female-author-talks-about-sexism-and-self-promotion/view-all/

And Anne Aguirre's post on sexism in the industry:

http://www.annaguirre.com/archives/2013/06/02/this-week-in-sf/

One of my male acquaintances had the sexually abusive Tor guy as his editor. And the SFWA "kerfuffle." Oy.

Elhawk, this is the video, by my hometown girls The Doubleclicks. It's in response to the "fake geek girl" thing going around in geek circles. (Google is friend.) Women in the geek world, including cosplayers and even luminaries like Felicia Day, are attacked for not _really_ being geeks. They're "faking it to be popular" (?!) and face attacks--in the case of the cosplayers, sometimes literally.






(Also? F-yeah Games of Triskelion ref!)

It all makes me triply glad to be indie, and to have a female-friendly, supportive local con like OryCon.


----------



## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Who the [bleep] says a story can't have science AND characterisation?


No-one. It's just traditional because many of the early big SF writers couldn't write female characters to save their lives.

And, to a lesser extent, because those who read the harder end of SF are usually far more interested in the science than the characters. In soft SF, the science and tech are just a background for the characters, in harder SF the characters are often just a background for the science and tech.


----------



## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> And I really can't get over the girl/boy cooties in this thread. People, aren't we just perpetuating the crap when we assume (however jokingly) that men don't want to read about character and love, even those in SF.


Well ... yes and no. I do think there are differences in what male readers as a group and female readers as a group are looking for. Whether or not male or female _writers_ are better able to deliver on that is a completely different issue, but it does influence reader perception, as was noted several times in the "can men write romance?" thread.



Rob Lopez said:


> But can you make a similar list of male authors (using male names) in Romance? And would it be as long?
> 
> There was a thread here recently about men writing in Romance, and several female posters remarked on the trend of women preferring Romance that was written by women. No one screamed 'sexism' then. Several male writers commented on the need to use female pen-names. No one complained about the bar to male entry into Romance. In fact, I don't think the word 'discrimination' even came up.
> 
> I know it's a bien pensant view to assume sexism in the industry because there's sexism in the world, blah, blah, but really, for you female SFF writers out there, how 'oppressed' do you feel? What 'barriers' prevent you from writing in the genre, apart from the usual ones about finding readers in your chosen market?


I wouldn't put it quite like that, but those are good points. Sexism runs both ways, though men might not be as vocal about it as women.


----------



## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

This so reminds me of the kb thread asking if men can write Romance genre. Conclusion in that thread was better use pseudon, same recommendation in sff it seems...


----------



## Sarma (Oct 11, 2013)

I had no idea that women made up such a huge percentage of sci fi readers. That is awesome, and no wonder the genre is changing to reflect that. I bet many male readers are happy about it too, because they get to read and enjoy more character driven stories. Hopefully a day will come when men can admit they enjoy it without shame. I mean, don't we all like interesting characters?

But I still think this bias exists, especially since some female readers here have openly admitted they are less likely to read scifi written by a woman. Maybe it's not as bad in fantasy, which I prefer reading and writing. Talking about this bias isn't perpetuating it. If anything, pretending it doesn't matter might do that.

I don't think women should write under male pen names or pretend to be men, but using a gender neutral pen name (initials work well) might be a good business decision.



Rob Lopez said:


> I know it's a bien pensant view to assume sexism in the industry because there's sexism in the world, blah, blah, but really, for you female SFF writers out there, how 'oppressed' do you feel? What 'barriers' prevent you from writing in the genre, apart from the usual ones about finding readers in your chosen market?


I think it's great that people are talking about misandry more lately, and men are coming forward about being a victim of discrimination, but I wish it didn't often come with a sentence that kind of implies that sexism against women doesn't exist, doesn't count, or or that women aren't thankful enough for how society treats them. Though romance readers will often pass over a book written by a man, I've heard that male romance readers are treated very well at conventions. The same cannot be said about female science fiction and fantasy writers at cons.

Did you read in this thread where a member was told point blank not to bother submitting her novel to a publishing house because she was a woman? Or the article written by Ann Aguirre where she recounts being called "the token female," asked to get coffee, wasn't able to ask questions directed toward her by name, and given a broken mic? Then she received the email "Its {b-words} like you that are ruining SF. Why cant you leave it to men who know what their doing?" within hours of making the post. And there's the incident where Connie Willis was groped while presenting a Hugo award. Do male romance writers experience the equivalent? I'm not aware of it.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

AbbyBabble said:


> My favorite SFF authors are all male. Epic series and runaway successes tend to be written by male authors (unless it's YA). George RR Martin, John Scalzi, Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, maybe even Scott Sigler and Hugh Howey, etc., are household name brand authors. Their female peers aren't--and I'd bet they sell fewer copies, too (unless it's YA). Personally, when I'm looking for a new SFF book to enjoy, I inwardly hesitate to try a female author. Why? Because I expect that it's going to focus on the romance, and the main character will be a snarky female detective or a whiny teenage girl. Beyond that, I expect mediocre word-building, characters, and plot. I expect weird sex stuff to be the highlight of the book's 'wow' factor.
> 
> That sounds horrible and harsh. It's doubly hard for me to admit my bias, because I am a female writer of SFF. I don't consider my own work to be like those others--I consider myself on a tier with the authors I admire.
> 
> ...


Lois McMaster Bujold appeals to much the same readership and is a bigger name than any of them except for Martin. Ditto for Connie Willis and Ursula K. LeGuin.

As for fantasy, there are plenty of women writing epic fantasy that is every bit as gritty and dark as the output of male authors, but they tend to be ignored. If you include urban fantasy, there are several female authors who regularly get sales on a level unseen by any male fantasy author except for George R.R. Martin, Jim Butcher and Brandon Sanderson, when he writes _Wheel of Time_. At the height of _True Blood_'s popularity, Charlaine Harris had ten different books on the _New York Times_ bestseller list at the same time, yet she is never mentioned in the same breath as Martin or Sanderson or Rothfuss. Her books may not be to everybody's taste (anymore than so-called grimdark fantasy is to mine), but that doesn't mean they're not fantasy.



Rob Lopez said:


> But can you make a similar list of male authors (using male names) in Romance? And would it be as long?
> 
> There was a thread here recently about men writing in Romance, and several female posters remarked on the trend of women preferring Romance that was written by women. No one screamed 'sexism' then. Several male writers commented on the need to use female pen-names. No one complained about the bar to male entry into Romance. In fact, I don't think the word 'discrimination' even came up.
> 
> I know it's a bien pensant view to assume sexism in the industry because there's sexism in the world, blah, blah, but really, for you female SFF writers out there, how 'oppressed' do you feel? What 'barriers' prevent you from writing in the genre, apart from the usual ones about finding readers in your chosen market?


There was a list of male romance writers in that thread and there were quite a few, for example Leigh Greenwood, Jessica Wilder (pen name for an elderly British gentleman), Jennifer Wilde (pen name for a male author), Tom Curtis (co-authored various romances with his wife Sharon), Madeline Brent a.k.a. Peter O'Donnell, Bernard Cornwell a.k.a. Susannah Kells, Thomas M. Dish (wrote gothic romances under a pen name), a male author writing for the Mills & Boon Medical Romance line under his own name, KB's own Bob Mayer who co-authored three adventure romance with Jennifer Crusie. There's probably more. And while many of those male romance writers had to use female or gender ambiguous pen names (but then most of the pen name examples except for Jessica Wilder are books from the 1960s to 1980s), male romance writers exist. Are prejudices against male romance writers unfair? Absolutely, especially since most of the gentlemen above wrote some very fine romances.

As for barriers against women writing SFF, read the various links about female authors being harrassed and insulted at cons, agents and editors trying to shunt women writers into certain subgenres and discouraging them away from others, bookstore buyers refusing to order books by female authors, because "no one buys SF by women", many genre mags, blogs and big name review sites reviewing far more books by men than women, SFF written by women relabeled as "something other than proper SFF" (mostly YA or romance), etc...

A lot of those barriers have become less problematic with the advent of indie publishing, because we no longer have to deal with agents, editors, bookstore buyers unless we want to and because we can label our own books. Ill treatment at cons and review bias still remain a problem though.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Sarma said:


> I think it's great that people are talking about misandry more lately, and men are coming forward about being a victim of discrimination, but I wish it didn't often come with a sentence that kind of implies that sexism against women doesn't exist, doesn't count, or or that women aren't thankful enough for how society treats them. Though romance readers will often pass over a book written by a man, I've heard that male romance readers are treated very well at conventions. The same cannot be said about female science fiction and fantasy writers at cons.
> 
> Did you read in this thread where a member was told point blank not to bother submitting her novel to a publishing house because she was a woman? Or the article written by Ann Aguirre where she recounts being called "the token female," asked to get coffee, wasn't able to ask questions directed toward her by name, and given a broken mic? Then she received the email "Its {b-words} like you that are ruining SF. Why cant you leave it to men who know what their doing?" within hours of making the post. And there's the incident where Connie Willis was groped while presenting a Hugo award. Do male romance writers experience the equivalent? I'm not aware of it.


Yes, this.

Even though some women may be reluctant to read a romance novel by an explicitly male writer, male readers and male writers are generally given a warm welcome at romance conventions and tend to get "You're a guy who reads/writes romance? That's so cool" along with a lot of reading recommendations, whereas way too many women at SFF conventions get harrassed and called "fake geek girl", if they can't name every member of the Green Lantern Corps by heart. That's not to say that there is no harrassment at romance conventions, because there have been incidents involving male cover models. But they are far rarer than at SFF cons.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

It's funny. I actually decided to add a romance to my serial to make it more marketable. 

With all the men drooling over the romance genre because of how popular it is, we're arguing about not having romance in scifi? 

I'm not making romance the plot of my serial, but it's going to be a strong emotional element for all of the characters. 

I don't write sex with this name. I have another name for that. But romance (sex) is one of the greatest motivating factors for human beings. What is the problem with having your characters deal with its power?


----------



## AbbyBabble (Mar 16, 2013)

> Lois McMaster Bujold appeals to much the same readership and is a bigger name than any of them except for Martin. Ditto for Connie Willis and Ursula K. LeGuin.


Cora, I would argue that Bujold is not as well known as the others. And Willis and LeGuin have been around since Orson Scott Card, Michael Crichton, Robert Jordan, and other ancients of 1980s (and Willis is really not a household name brand; LeGuin is only because she was picked up in academic circles). I was specifically steering clear of yesteryear.

As for Charlaine Harris and Paranormal Romance ... hey, I won't argue that they're popular and every bit on an equal footing with the male-written series out there. But they don't appeal to the same readership. Few fans of 'The Wheel of Time' are also going to be fans of 'True Blood.' As I said, if you're writing romance-geared SFF, you won't experience bias as a female author. (The opposite might be true--you might experience bias if you're a male writing Paranormal Romance.) It's only a problem if you're writing Grim/Dark Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, Hard SF, and so forth.

How big a problem? Someone should do a study on it! But I think the bias exists, since I have it, and I know I'm not the only one.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

I recently picked up a book from Bookbub by an author who was a childhood favorite. I was really excited to read something by him again after all these years. But the book was so full of info dumps about the physics of his world, I couldn't even find the story line. I couldn't even keep reading. If you're into that kind of thing, good for you, read it, write it, whatever, but it bores me to tears and isn't want interests me. 

I think most human beings listen to story to put themselves into the shoes of the character, to experience the hero's journey.
You aren't going to get that from a book full of technical info dumps and no characterization or story line.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> But, for all that's dear...
> 
> Who the [bleep] says a story can't have science AND characterisation? Why must we perpetuate this dichotomy? Because there are plenty of writers (some even mentioned upthread) who do just that.


I get pretty bored with science fiction without characterization.

In fact, I even have a hard time consuming science nonfiction without an interesting character or narrative attached to it.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

jvin248 said:


> This so reminds me of the kb thread asking if men can write Romance genre. Conclusion in that thread was better use pseudon, same recommendation in sff it seems...


...Which is interesting, because I never asked whether women can write sci-fi. Some responders in this thread (not you, I know) have answered as if they thought that's what I asked, when, if they'd read beyond the subject, they'd know there's no question about whether women can write it, but rather whether the bias against them is as strong as it's often made out to be/whether it's being eroded away/whether Kirk will ever teach the hot alien babe the meaning of love.

I certainly have no doubt that women can smoke sci-fi with the best of 'em. I mean, Ursula K. Leguin (to name only one). Need I say more?


----------



## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Quiss said:


> It was MacCaffrey's short story "The Rowan" that put me on my current path.
> That flavour of people-centred soft sci-fi is what has the greatest appeal for me. I leave the high-tech stuff to the boys  (She says after just spending two days researching thorium-powered propulsion)


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Ahem.

As pointed out. Some of us girl-bits-having-types write things with both science AND characters doing stuff n stuff...


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Great thread! My .02:

So, women dominate in certain genres, particularly romance - which, of course, tends to be dismissed as frivolous wish-fulfillment, unrealistic, the genre of housewives who need fantasy/escape, etc. But when women write in male-dominated genres like SFF, _they_ tend to be dismissed as overly emotional, or likely to include "mushy" stuff like love and sex and relationships. The posts in this thread show that this is the case, as do a couple of the blog posts linked here. We can't win! 

As much talk as there has been about men using pen names to write romance, you *never* see a man dismissed in the romance community (at a conference, for example) quite the way women writers are dismissed and harassed in the SFF community. Women in SFF often have to fight to be heard, to have a voice and not be objectified or dismissed. If a man wants to write romance, then in my experience, the predominant attitude is, "Let him do it -- we will judge him on the results." And sometimes, yeah, it's a little more like, "He can try!" But if he makes a good faith effort (& doesn't just see romance as a cash cow), he is welcome in the romance community.

So while there is a bias in terms of what the average romance reader will pick up, there's no active effort to SILENCE men who want to write romance. I don't hear about men getting hate mail and threats for daring to write in a "woman's" genre.

What gets me is that the response to women writers of SFF can be SO hostile. It's not judgment of the content/merits of their work -- it's judgment and vitriol based entirely on their gender. It's a judgment that says women should be silenced, that their voices don't matter. That they shouldn't be allowed to write or self promote, that they can't engage in a literary conversation about Man-Things like science, intellect, heroism, morality, politics, etc.

I admire the female writers in these genres because they do deal with a lot of crap. And I take comfort in the fact that these sexist jerks are in an increasingly dwindling (though vocal) minority. Most men and boys I know are very cool and very smart (and very nerdy), and they don't doubt that women can run with the best of them in any situation, including writing kick-a** SFF.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I think (but hope I'm wrong) that there may be more bias than many of you seem to think.

In the background, I've been preparing to publish some hard SF under a male name (unrelated to any of my series) to see what happens. One thing I've noticed that all authors on this forum who write SF with "space-y" covers and do halfway well or better are all male. For the female authors there seems to be the underlying assumption that the story will have romance.

Women are reluctant read it because ZOMG science cooties! and men may avoid it because girl cooties.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Ahem.
> 
> As pointed out. Some of us girl-bits-having-types write things with both science AND characters doing stuff n stuff...


And some of you do it better than we do, which makes us want to use our brawn (beer guts) to physically intimidate you into submission so we don't feel threatened, because every big smelly male chimp is privately terrified of being found out for how weak and sniveling we really are on the inside.


----------



## Sarma (Oct 11, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> And some of you do it better than we do, which makes us want to use our brawn (beer guts) to physically intimidate you into submission so we don't feel threatened, because every big smelly male chimp is privately terrified of being found out for how weak and sniveling we really are on the inside.


Hey now, wait a second. Are you saying that over used trope in practically every single romance novel is, um, REAL?


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> Vaalingrad, if that's true, DC is doing it wrong. I have given up their books entirely after the insults of New 52. I also personally know some people who've written and drawn for them, and after one editor gave an artist friend the note "make her more slutty" on an already-over sexualized drawing I realized fully they're not making comics for me. Luckily, lots of other people are!


DC is precisely the outfit I was talking about.

Harras and Didio are not shy about how they 'only make comics for 45 year-old men' and happily pretend there's no female fanbase or creative pool for them to draw from, pretty much just so they can hype the hell out of Gail Simone (and how in the world has she not gone over to Boom or Image yet?!) without, you know, treating her with any respect. Granted, the have zero respect for any of their creative talent, but they constantly make it a point to void their bowels on Simone's work in particular, then immediately hold her up as proof that they're not sexist twits.

They also are quick to jump on BS like the fake geek girl thing (they ran an ad making fun of 'fake geek girls' even.) to the point that they kept the stupid concept alive much longer than it should be been. What people don't seem to get or remember is that the actual fandom _eviscerated_ Tony Harras when he first started this whole thing. Everyone pretends like it's a concept that all of geekdom believes in, when really it's only something held up by only codgers, young trolls and MRA morons who buy PUA books.

The Geekosystem is WAAAY bigger and more diverse then people give it credit for. Trying to attribute things like this to all of geekdom is like trying to claim all people who drink beer drive drunk.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> And some of you do it better than we do, which makes us want to use our brawn (beer guts) to physically intimidate you into submission so we don't feel threatened, because every big smelly male chimp is privately terrified of being found out for how weak and sniveling we really are on the inside.


Aw. Hugs for your wee beer-gut. *pat, pat* There, there. I'm sure you can wipe your tears of angst away with a few c-notes


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> The Geekosystem is WAAAY bigger and more diverse then people give it credit for. Trying to attribute things like this to all of geekdom is like trying to claim all people who drink beer drive drunk.


Yes. It's way more diverse than I thought. I must have internalized some biases myself, because I was genuinely surprised to see how many women were reading my aliens/post-apocalyptic nonsense, which I falsely imagined was a total dude subgenre.

There is certainly institutional sexism in SF/F (from the old guard, from certain corners of geekdom, from general internet culture, etc.). And while many trad authors are also proving (and have been for decades) that SF isn't just for white guys, I think indies are primed to prove just how wide the audience for even traditionally male-dominated subgenres can be.

As always, respect will follow the money.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Vaalingrade: apparently I misunderstood your point entirely.  Apologies. I agree, it is amazing how little respect DC shows its people, especially Simone. Marvel treats its writers better, but not its artists; comics go through swings where it's either all about the artist or all about the writer, and it seems like it's writers right now. (Granted, they have some terrific writers right now. Fraction and DeConnick brought me back into superhero comics after a two-decade hiatus. <-- Team Hawkguy) All I know is my comics creating daughters are almost certainly going to be indies.

Ed: yeah, I think a lot of it is institutional. I know what you mean about being surprised. I figured my main series audience was women 35-50. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Surveys I've run are invariably 50/50 male/female and range in age from 18 up into the 70s. If they cluster at all, it's in education; lots of people with degrees. It's what makes it so hard to market--I can't get a clear picture of my audience. They're--say it with me now--too diverse!


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

I apologize for coming in late and replying to the very first post =/

I've read scifi/fantasy since I can remember. I've never once cared if the author was male or female, but in the age of the internet, I've seen troll battles about this subject far too often. 

Dragonlance was my introduction to D&D stories that went beyond our irregular pen & paper sessions (and reading DM manuals and modules/scenarios). From Weiss/Hickman I moved to RA Salvatore, and while I noticed a significant difference in the direction the story was told from, I loved both. I like science fiction and fantasy that is told from a woman's perspective, or that comes from the female brain. It is usually different than how men write within the genres, and this is the important part for me. 

I love scifi so much that I want a million different good stories to read. I never want to run out of stories to read. I want them told from every perspective (though I'm not a romance lover at all). If all I read was male-dominated military science fiction of space and ground battles, I'd get sick of it. I have grown sick of it before. 

One of the best science fiction stories I've ever read was Handmaid's Tale. I could go on and on about why this book is so great, but I don't need to heh. I haven't read everything Octavia Butler has written, nor NK Jemisin, but what I've digested so far is great. It's different. I love it because of the sometimes subtle, sometimes vast differences of how women write the genre compared to men. It's the 'different' part that I need. 

I guess my point would be that I don't consider an author's gender (nor race, nor sexual orientation) when it comes to science fic / fantasy. Any genre, really. I'm also sad that most science fiction is so 'white,' as if there aren't any other racial types five hundred years in the future. When I read science fiction that has the human race being sort of a boring brown in the future from all of the genetic mixing, I like that. I totally dig science fiction that has strong women in strong roles. That might be a bit off topic so I'll stick with author gender. Sorry . 

I would also like to chime in and say I'm surprised at the ratio of female to male readers I get for my own science fiction. I really can't base hard stats on reviews, but from what I can tell, around half of my reviews are from females, which is awesome but weird. Awesome because it's another fan of science fiction, yay! Weird because I grew up my whole life with females kind of turning their noses up at science fiction. Video games too. Now it's all changing (my wife and I love to play things like Team Fortress 2 and Rock Band together, and she even *gasp* likes science fiction). This is good.  

And finally...it makes me unhappy to see authors (and readers) being ugly to each other, or even just dismissive because of gender/race/sexuality. I probably already said that. I'll stop saying things now.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm bowled over by that being an issue at all. Or even happening. I've read both genders in SFF in the past, liked or disliked both and given the many excellent and quite renowned female writers, some of whom got named in this thread, way back to the beginning of the genre, I'm astonished at this happening.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Aw. Hugs for your wee beer-gut. *pat, pat* There, there. I'm sure you can wipe your tears of angst away with a few c-notes


I don't carry change. 

Back on topic: When I go to events, the female/male ratio in the audience is typically around 70/30. Librarians and bookstore owners frequently comment on this, acting surprised. My response is to ask them who they see browsing their shelves. When I worked as a bookseller, I saw 5 female shoppers for every 1. My anecdotal sampling of friends and family would show a similar ration. At the store, we were always wondering how the hell we could get more men into the store and reading. Conversely, in the video game community, the dilemma is the exact opposite. Makes you wonder if reading and gaming are separating the sexes along pastime preferences.

I guess the point is that to ignore SF readers of the fairer sex would be crazy. I'd love to see a survey over time. My guess is that we'd see a huge swing in the gender imbalance, both of readers and writers in the genre.

Of course, I've been wrong before. Who knows?


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I don't carry change.
> 
> Back on topic: When I go to events, the female/male ratio in the audience is typically around 70/30. Librarians and bookstore owners frequently comment on this, acting surprised. My response is to ask them who they see browsing their shelves. When I worked as a bookseller, I saw 5 female shoppers for every 1. My anecdotal sampling of friends and family would show a similar ration. At the store, we were always wondering how the hell we could get more men into the store and reading. Conversely, in the video game community, the dilemma is the exact opposite. Makes you wonder if reading and gaming are separating the sexes along pastime preferences.
> 
> ...


I touched on it a little bit (hidden in my word sewage). There used to be a huge imbalance of male to female gamers, but I think as each generation grows up connected to technology from the instant they can walk and grasp concepts, that imbalance will (and is) become an even split. Just like with books, the difference is usually in the types of games. Men prefer FPS (Call of Duty) types (typically, not trying to say ALL men or such), RTS (real-time strategy), more 'twitch action' type of games.

Women tend to prefer things like DDR (the dance games), Mario, RPG's, puzzlers, whatever the heck is on Facebook, Bejeweled (I mention this because I suffered a severe addiction to Bejeweled 2 for almost four months straight).

Again, not trying to pigeonhole any gender to any category of gaming, but I've spent a lot of the last twenty years in this field. My wife plays FPS and loves to blow the heads off enemies with a shotgun up close and personal as much as I love puzzlers like Bejeweled and Dr. Mario (classic!). Keep in mind one of her favorite things in the world is when goalies in ice hockey fight. As in literally throw off the gloves and go at it like enforcers do.

As a high school teacher, she gets to see a much closer view of what teenagers are up to, and in her anecdotal experience, the females are just as game-crazy as the boys are these days, and the gap between the preference majorities for games are narrowing as well. My wife used to have to say nothing over the voice comms when she played online because it was 95% man-boy and her as the only female playing Soldier of Fortune and Unreal Tournament. Now whenever she steps into a TF2 server, there's usually about 1/4 to 1/2 of the players that are female.

Right. I apologize, just adding my $.02 of input to the gaming bit.

I definitely agree on the observation that there's a greater imbalance in reading between the sexes, and going with more anecdotal data from the high school teacher wife, it's a fairly large imbalance. Not that boys don't read, they just don't seem to be as passionate or maybe as consistent about it as the girls. She's also commented that she's seen quite a number of the girls reading things that are 'typically' outside of their preference. She's even caught a student with this book called "Wool" by some dude that posts in this forum. She'd love to take a pic because she knows how much he likes that sort of thing, but rules is rules, and it doesn't go over well for teachers to take pictures of their students, regardless of how innocent it is =(.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

AngryGames said:


> As a high school teacher, she gets to see a much closer view of what teenagers are up to, and in her anecdotal experience, the females are just as game-crazy as the boys are these days, and the gap between the preference majorities for games are narrowing as well. My wife used to have to say nothing over the voice comms when she played online because it was 95% man-boy and her as the only female playing Soldier of Fortune and Unreal Tournament. Now whenever she steps into a TF2 server, there's usually about 1/4 to 1/2 of the players that are female.
> 
> Right. I apologize, just adding my $.02 of input to the gaming bit.
> 
> I definitely agree on the observation that there's a greater imbalance in reading between the sexes, and going with more anecdotal data from the high school teacher wife, it's a fairly large imbalance. Not that boys don't read, they just don't seem to be as passionate or maybe as consistent about it as the girls. She's also commented that she's seen quite a number of the girls reading things that are 'typically' outside of their preference. She's even caught a student with this book called "Wool" by some dude that posts in this forum. She'd love to take a pic because she knows how much he likes that sort of thing, but rules is rules, and it doesn't go over well for teachers to take pictures of their students, regardless of how innocent it is =(.


This matches my own observations (also a secondary school teacher). Girls are just as avid gamers as boys and the genre preference gap is narrowing as well. For example, both genders love Minecraft and sports games like FIFA soccer, though action heavy games like _Assassin's Creed_ are still mainly played by boys. Or maybe the girls just don't talk about it, since they are theoretically too young to buy and play the more violent games. And for a bit of completely anecdotal evidence, I just stood in line behind a woman in her early twenties buying the latest edition of _Call of Duty_ at the electronics store.

I do have male students who like to read, but most of the really rabid readers (who always have a book in their hand) are girls and most of the "would never read a book, unless forced to do so" crowd are boys. But I suspect this is at least partly due to the fact that YA fiction is very girl focussed at the moment.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> And some of you do it better than we do, which makes us want to use our brawn (beer guts) to physically intimidate you into submission so we don't feel threatened, because every big smelly male chimp is privately terrified of being found out for how weak and sniveling we really are on the inside.


Isn't this weird? Dan Savage was just talking about this on his most recent podcast. He said he thinks every heterosexual man out there hides at least one trait that would be considered "gay" or "womanly" by his peers. I think my husband may be the only man who doesn't hide it! He loves knitting, and doesn't disguise this fact from anybody. When the guys in his Coast Guard unit found out, they made fun of him relentlessly, so he knitted them all pink and purple hats. Now they kind of think he's awesome for it.

So the moral of the story is: men, stop being afraid and just write that romance novel you know you've always wanted to try. Maybe when they get it out of their systems they'll back off trying to intimidate the women in SFF!


----------



## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

ElHawk said:


> So the moral of the story is: men, stop being afraid and just write that romance novel you know you've always wanted to try. Maybe when they get it out of their systems they'll back off trying to intimidate the women in SFF!


Sorry, no can do. I tried once. Of course, I was having a bit of fun with the genre and decided to make my alpha male over-the-top. Ended up with a novella ... but, upon further reading in the genre, found out that my 'over-the-top' was just 'fair-to-middling'. On the other hand, I've never tried to intimidate the women in SFF. I've read and enjoyed the writing of several, however.


----------



## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

How do you guys know the genders of your readers? Are you extrapolating from tho reviews you get? Or your mailing lists? Or is there some magic wand I don't know about?

Back in the day when IRoSF was still alive, I wrote an article with Jay Lake that touches on the discussion we're having here, "Tough Times for Beset Manhood. Or, Where Has Good Old Golden Age SF Gone?" It's still available in the archives:

http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10196

There's also quite a long discussion of women in SF, the good the bad and the ugly (and what Jay and I did wrong *g*), at the end of the article.


----------



## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I guess the point is that to ignore SF readers of the fairer sex would be crazy.


They not only read sf but they write it fabulously, too, and the world needs more of them. And more strong female sf protagonists.

And more _men_ writing sf from a _woman's_ POV.

It'll make you grow as a writer. I guarantee it.


----------



## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> So the moral of the story is: men, stop being afraid and just write that romance novel you know you've always wanted to try. Maybe when they get it out of their systems they'll back off trying to intimidate the women in SFF!


Already done. It's in my sig (and I'm sure there will be more to come). 



Hugh Howey said:


> I guess the point is that to ignore SF readers of the fairer sex would be crazy.


Ignoring anyone who reads you at all is crazy, whether they're male, female, or anything in between.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

RuthNestvold said:


> How do you guys know the genders of your readers? Are you extrapolating from tho reviews you get? Or your mailing lists? Or is there some magic wand I don't know about?


I don't know if it helps as much in harder SFF subgenres, but I can get a rough idea of my male:female reader ratio by looking at my FB page's stats. Only 15% of the people who have "liked" my page identify as male.


----------



## Lyoung (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm somewhat surprised but, sadly, not overly so. This reminds me of the reactions that Anita Sarkeesian gets - she is the host of Feminist Frequency and she writes about the tropes and treatment of women in media (video games, movies, books, etc.). While I may not agree with everything she says, the hostile cloud around her by both male and female viewers is astounding and agonizing. She receives the same kind of angry, disrespectful, and badly-spelled e-mails that Ann Aguirre does, with an extra dash of rape/death threats by the thousands. 

This incredibly hostile anti-female phenomenon is also prevalent in the gaming world. There's a blog where female gamers post the messages they receive from male gamers - it's pretty horrific. I purposely do not go online to game for that very reason. I'm not afraid to go online - I just don't want to enter the world of online bullying which may, to an extent, cause me to lose faith in humanity's ability to be *decent* just because of this anonymous, cowardly, and small-minded faction.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Lydia Young said:


> This incredibly hostile anti-female phenomenon is also prevalent in the gaming world. There's a blog where female gamers post the messages they receive from male gamers - it's pretty horrific. I purposely do not go online to game for that very reason. I'm not afraid to go online - I just don't want to enter the world of online bullying which may, to an extent, cause me to lose faith in humanity's ability to be *decent* just because of this anonymous, cowardly, and small-minded faction.


Hey, I'm a guy and I don't game online because of the bullying and name-calling. And I think just as in online gaming, the minority of jerks in the SF community ruin it for everyone else. I think that's changing now that women are being vocal about this needing to stop and get better. Major conventions are changing policy because of this nonsense.

Progress doesn't come without a lot of kicking and screaming, but it does seem to be coming.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

> This incredibly hostile anti-female phenomenon is also prevalent in the gaming world. There's a blog where female gamers post the messages they receive from male gamers - it's pretty horrific.


What astonishes me is that instead of lessening, as one would assume from where the world has reached in terms of equality and feminism, the hatred and hostilities seem to be augmenting, both in number as well as in severity. I remember reading sci-fi back in the early 80s and half of the household names were women, who were to my perception well-received and respected. Many of them were Hugo and repeat Hugo winners. Many of my mates bought Zimmer-Bradley or LeGuin without second thoughts. C.C. Cherryh used to be my teen bête-noir for her dry, technical prose, which nowadays fascinates me in its utter crispness and precision. Now, you didn't go to cons here, I wouldn't even be able to point out more than a few I even heard of. So there was no interaction except for when you ask for a signed copy and that almost always was through the mail. This current development leaves me scratching my head.


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Nic said:


> What astonishes me is that instead of lessening, as one would assume from where the world has reached in terms of equality and feminism, the hatred and hostilities seem to be augmenting, both in number as well as in severity. I remember reading sci-fi back in the early 80s and half of the household names were women, who were to my perception well-received and respected. Many of them were Hugo and repeat Hugo winners. Many of my mates bought Zimmer-Bradley or LeGuin without second thoughts. C.C. Cherryh used to be my teen bête-noir for her dry, technical prose, which nowadays fascinates me in its utter crispness and precision. Now, you didn't go to cons here, I wouldn't even be able to point out more than a few I even heard of. So there was no interaction except for when you ask for a signed copy and that almost always was through the mail. This current development leaves me scratching my head.


Oprah said it best this week (or last) when she said something to the effect of 'progress will be made when all of the old racists (bigots can be inserted here) die off and the younger, more progressive generation takes over'.

Keep in mind that's a paraphrase (that has Fox+ all up in arms heh), but that's what I took from it. In my experience, this is really the way progress will go. Once all of the old, privileged, hateful persons die and leave the rest of us in charge finally, maybe there will be enough of us to stop teaching our children harmful habits.

You know...like NO MEANS NO, Rape is never the answer, there is no skin color, race, nationality, or culture that is superior to another, women have different genitals but are equal to men, gays and lesbians are born that way just like you are born 'straight', bullying is bad...

All of this stuff is taught by parents/family to their children. The misogynistic lowlifes I've met...once I met their families, I knew exactly where it came from (same with racism, that definitely comes from home).


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

AngryGames said:


> Oprah said it best this week (or last) when she said something to the effect of 'progress will be made when all of the old racists (bigots can be inserted here) die off and the younger, more progressive generation takes over'.


Keep in mind that today's progressives are tomorrow's bigots.

Our grandchildren will be horrified that we ate meat or drove cars or used a dozen words that don't seem offensive to us today. They will be aghast that we sat by while North Koreas and Syria and Mogadishu happened. They will judge us for a myriad of things that we don't notice today because our arms get in the way as we reach around to pat ourselves on the back.

It may be something we can't possibly predict, like wanting to claim beloved pets as true offspring, to factor them into their tax withholdings and have work insurance cover the vet bills, and their sincerity will seem alien to us, and we will seem like out-of-touch geezers to them.

Oh, and their music will annoy us. We'll call it "noise."

Just watch.


----------



## Rob Lopez (Jun 19, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Keep in mind that today's progressives are tomorrow's bigots.
> 
> Our grandchildren will be horrified that we ate meat or drove cars or used a dozen words that don't seem offensive to us today. They will be aghast that we sat by while North Koreas and Syria and Mogadishu happened. They will judge us for a myriad of things that we don't notice today because our arms get in the way as we reach around to pat ourselves on the back.
> 
> ...


And they will wish for us to die so that they can 'take over and be in charge'. And we will call it a desire for euthanasia. And hatred. And we will fear them.

Bigotry used to defeat bigotry = bigotry.

It's a conundrum.


----------



## SarahCarter (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm a woman and I love to read/write fantasy. At the moment I've only published YA stuff, but I've been working on an epic fantasy for ages. And if I ever self-published it...I think I'd do it under "S. Carter" rather than "Sarah Carter", so that people don't know that the author's female. Despite the fact that I write epic fantasy myself, I admit that I do tend to avoid other female writers when it comes to this genre. 

The terrible thing is that I've probably only read a couple of female authors in the genre, and I've let them put me off. I've read fantasy by men that I don't like, but that's never put me off because there are male fantasy authors that I really enjoy to balance it out.


----------



## Rob Lopez (Jun 19, 2012)

SarahCarter said:


> Despite the fact that I write epic fantasy myself, I admit that I do tend to avoid other female writers when it comes to this genre.
> 
> The terrible thing is that I've probably only read a couple of female authors in the genre, and I've let them put me off.


How come?


----------



## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> Keep in mind that today's progressives are tomorrow's bigots.
> 
> Our grandchildren will be horrified that we ate meat or drove cars or used a dozen words that don't seem offensive to us today. They will be aghast that we sat by while North Koreas and Syria and Mogadishu happened. They will judge us for a myriad of things that we don't notice today because our arms get in the way as we reach around to pat ourselves on the back.
> 
> ...


Truer words have never been written. I had ancestors that were part of the underground railroad. Does that earn me any mercy points in the hatred of financially stable, heterosexual white people? No.


----------



## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> Oh, and their music will annoy us. We'll call it "noise."
> 
> Just watch.


"Will"? Ah, right, you're a lot younger than I am ...


----------



## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

SarahCarter said:


> And if I ever self-published it...I think I'd do it under "S. Carter" rather than "Sarah Carter", so that people don't know that the author's female.


And I publish under "H.S." instead of "Harry" because:

1) I'm writing first-person YA in a variety of young women's voices and don't necessarily want people to know I'm a man right away, and
2) c'mon? "Harry?" Really? _That's_ what you named me?


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> That's what they said in the sixties. Then the Me Generation did take over, and we're seeing the consequences.
> 
> People will always find a reason to hate others. Nothing's going to change that other than sticking electrodes in their brains to control them.


*snaps rubber gloves*

On it.


----------



## Lyoung (Oct 21, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Hey, I'm a guy and I don't game online because of the bullying and name-calling. And I think just as in online gaming, the minority of jerks in the SF community ruin it for everyone else. I think that's changing now that women are being vocal about this needing to stop and get better. Major conventions are changing policy because of this nonsense.
> 
> Progress doesn't come without a lot of kicking and screaming, but it does seem to be coming.


Hi Hugh:

I agree. And I know there's bullying against males too - I don't mean to diminish or ignore that aspect of online bullying by jerk gamers. I just focused on the female aspect of it because of the topic, but I'm just as horrified by the male-on-male bullying as well...just in a different way from a different perspective. There's a sense of threat that men perceive that, in some ways, we may not understand because we are not men. There's a sense of threat that women perceive that, in some ways, men will never understand. And then there's a lot of common ground in between, where you feel and sense and react in similar ways because we're all human, we've all been through that experience, and we've all experienced it in a human way.

Yes, progress doesn't happen without people being vocal about it. The process of change can be painful, but we hope it'll yield some grand results.


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> That's what they said in the sixties. Then the Me Generation did take over, and we're seeing the consequences.
> 
> People will always find a reason to hate others. Nothing's going to change that other than sticking electrodes in their brains to control them.


True for the most part...but you can't really deny that we've come a long way since the 60's (when interracial marriage was still illegal in a lot of states, so was segregation, etc.)

I agree that even when our nation, 100+ years in the future is predominantly brown-ish from all of the genetic mixing (this is a good thing unless you wear a white sheet to your meetings), we humans will find someone/something else to hate.

You'd think that we'd have done a better job by now though...but as I said, as soon as all of the old, bigoted racists die off, we'll be a better country (notice I don't say 'racism and sexism will be eradicated)


----------



## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

> You'd think that we'd have done a better job by now though...but as I said, as soon as all of the old, bigoted racists die off, we'll be a better country (notice I don't say 'racism and sexism will be eradicated)


Um, isn't wishing for the death of senior citizens another form of hate?


----------



## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

brendajcarlton said:


> Um, isn't wishing for the death of senior citizens another form of hate?


If the people saying, "The country will be better once the bigoted generation dies off," are saying that out of hate, yes.

But it can also be a forthright opinion built on the belief that most of the bigots are older and there will therefore be fewer bigots _per capita_ once that generation dies. That isn't hateful.

Personally, I'm not convinced that most bigots are elderly. The most bigoted people I know are under fifty, but none of them realize or admit the bigotry, and they "prove" they're not with equivocation and other logically invalid arguments. So they're sneakier about it.

I therefore suspect it's going to get worse. But we'll see what happens.


----------



## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Carradee said:


> Personally, I'm not convinced that most bigots are elderly. The most bigoted people I know are under fifty


The most bigoted people I've met are young chavs. They're pretty much at the bottom of the social heap in the UK, so they're looking for anyone they can claim to be superior to.


----------



## TraciLoudin (Sep 10, 2013)

This topic comes at an interesting time for me, as I've just put together a list of books I want to read in 2014. When I looked back on my past reading habits, I realized that for some years, my ratio of male to female authors was 2:1.

If you think that's bad, it used to be a lot worse. Today I published a blog post (linked) talking about why, as a teenager, *I actively avoided reading science fiction and fantasy written by women*. (Hint: paranormal romance's dominance of bookstore shelves at the time)

If I, a woman who writes science fiction and fantasy, can look back and see how I myself used to discriminate against female authors, then I imagine the gender bias is stronger than most people realize. Until they come face-to-face with it, or topics like this one make people stop and think about their past/future choices when selecting books to read.

People often say they don't choose based on the name of the author, but based on the cover. Well, the author's name is on the cover! And if you're not actively paying attention, you may unintentionally fall into gender bias.

(Or, maybe not even gender bias. Maybe just name bias. For example, you used to know a really prissy girl named Jennifer. Now you're staring at a gritty, post-apocalyptic sf novel, trying to decide whether to buy it. Then you notice the author's name is Jennifer. Do you buy it, or do your own personal biases get the better of you? You may not even _remember_ that girl Jennifer, but your subconscious does. Not to go off topic here...)

If you catalog books you've read over the past few years, are your ratios as skewed as mine? In 2012, I sought out female authors, but I still only managed a 2:1 ratio, male.

I do think a lot of the problem is with the institution of traditional publishing. Not only do/did many publishers pressure female authors into using male pseudonyms, but, as others have mentioned, big-name reviewers tend/tended to select books by male authors to review.

And for traditional authors, that first six-week window is make or break. Male authors have/had a leg up, because they were getting more exposure, and therefor more initial readers, and therefore more initial buzz... And it's a cycle. It's no wonder why it's harder for readers to find female authors!

My hope is that with the decentralization caused by indie publishing, this issue will decline. But individual book bloggers and the readers' own biases still factor in.


----------



## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

Lydia Young said:


> I'm somewhat surprised but, sadly, not overly so. This reminds me of the reactions that Anita Sarkeesian gets - she is the host of Feminist Frequency and she writes about the tropes and treatment of women in media (video games, movies, books, etc.). While I may not agree with everything she says, the hostile cloud around her by both male and female viewers is astounding and agonizing. She receives the same kind of angry, disrespectful, and badly-spelled e-mails that Ann Aguirre does, with an extra dash of rape/death threats by the thousands.
> 
> This incredibly hostile anti-female phenomenon is also prevalent in the gaming world. There's a blog where female gamers post the messages they receive from male gamers - it's pretty horrific. I purposely do not go online to game for that very reason. I'm not afraid to go online - I just don't want to enter the world of online bullying which may, to an extent, cause me to lose faith in humanity's ability to be *decent* just because of this anonymous, cowardly, and small-minded faction.


when i learned about what Sarkeesian went through, i was rather stunned


----------



## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

Nic said:


> What astonishes me is that instead of lessening, as one would assume from where the world has reached in terms of equality and feminism, the hatred and hostilities seem to be augmenting, both in number as well as in severity.


Simone de Beauvoir always said that for real gains there will be extra-hard pushback...


----------



## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

i gravitate towards women writers, but i'll slip in a guy every now and then…


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

heidi_g said:


> Simone de Beauvoir always said that for real gains there will be extra-hard pushback...


I'm not sure it's a pushback. I have the feeling the pendulum swings into the other direction again.


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

heidi_g said:


> i gravitate towards women writers, but i'll slip in a guy every now and then&#8230;


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

heidi_g said:


> i gravitate towards women writers, but i'll slip in a guy every now and then&#8230;


_Hello._


----------



## SarahCarter (Nov 8, 2012)

heidi_g said:


> i gravitate towards women writers, but i'll slip in a guy every now and then&#8230;


As the actress said to the bishop...


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

FYI: Women who discriminate against other women aren't feminists.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Skye Ronan said:


> FYI: Women who discriminate against other women aren't feminists.


Eh, some are. There are a lot of different kinds of feminism, just like any other movement and just like in every other movement,t here are people who will discriminate against people in their category for 'doing it wrong'. Just being a feminist, a civil rights supporter, etc, doens't stop some people from still being bad people they're just well intentioned extremists instead of just plain jerks.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm sorry, but if you say you don't read books because they are written by women you are a misogynist. It isn't about a right or wrong way of being a feminist. You're just anti women, and that is anti feminist. I see comments on this thread from women saying they don't read female scifi writers and it feels to me like desperate attempt to be accepted into the boys club. Same thing happens in every arena where woman are typically considered inferior. Why do people still believe woman in the business world don't help other woman? Because there is only room for one, and they want to be that one. 

It is a very outdated attitude that I wish would just die.

When I read, it's about the actual content not the gender of the writer.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

It's like a black person saying, "I don't read books written by black people because they are black." That would be racist wouldn't it?


----------



## TraciLoudin (Sep 10, 2013)

Skye Ronan said:


> I see comments on this thread from women saying they don't read female scifi writers and it feels to me like desperate attempt to be accepted into the boys club.


Skye, my point was to answer the original question of whether bias still exists, and the answer is a resounding YES. *If gender bias against women can go unnoticed even by women, that shows how ingrained it is in our society.*



TraciLoudin said:


> If I, a woman who writes science fiction and fantasy, can look back and see how I myself used to discriminate against female authors, then I imagine the gender bias is stronger than most people realize. Until they come face-to-face with it, or topics like this one make people stop and think about their past/future choices when selecting books to read.


I came to the realization in my late teens that women writers write more than just paranormal romance (surprise!), and then I began branching out more. But it's still not enough. Even with my conscious realization that there was no excuse for not reading in my own gender, my ratio was still skewed 2:1. Which is why I decided to correct the imbalance and read only SFF by female authors in 2014 (another part of the blog, which I didn't mention).

It makes me want to go back to my teenage self and say "What were you thinking" which is what the linked blog post talks more about. My apologies if my dismay didn't come through very strongly in my earlier post on this thread. There was a lot of context missing, I suppose.


----------



## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

I had to make this point because you weren't the only woman to say something along those lines. I do think it is a matter of maturity for a woman to realize these things especially if you/we didn't fit into the socially expected norms for girls in our society. 

I know I've always read SSF but with no bias toward male or female. I DID however, have a strong bias against Romance. I had never read a romance novel, ever, until I started writing them. When I realized how much I enjoyed writing the internal journey of the romantic heroine, I decided to give them a shot. Low and behold, I like them! I still tend to go for the paranormal, but that might change. I'm willing to experiment. 

Sometimes something really fun comes along and it can be surprising what is actually entertaining.


----------

