# How much should it cost to self-publish a book?



## Kelsye (Aug 6, 2013)

What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*

I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

*Editing costs: $550
*Cover art: $200
*Website - I've had a site longer than I've been publishing ebooks, so I don't count this cost.

Everything else was negligible or free.

As for marketing - haven't really put anything in to book #1 - I'm going to start really pushing once I have two or three books out.


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## Michael Kingswood (Feb 18, 2011)

It can cost as much as you want it to cost.  However, at the minimum:

$35 - Copyright Registration
$10 - ISBN through Createspace
$25 - Createspace Extended Distribution

The rest is variable.  You can trade for editorial services or just find some really anal first readers.  Cover art can range from $0 if you take a picture yourself to hundreds or thousands.  Formatting for print is a small learning curve, but not too hard.  Formatting for ebook is just a couple clicks with apps like Scrivener.

*shrug*

Doesn't cost much unless you let it.

ETA - Oh yeah, and you'll need to pay for a proof copy of your paperback, around $10 with shipping.  Again, not much.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

LOL, do people really pat $1500 for formatting?

There's a lot wrong with this, imho, especially the smart spender. They're throwing away a lot of money on formatting, author photo, website, isbn, etc. And $1000 for marketing. I'm assuming this is a yearly cost? Spread over the lifetime of the book? There just aren't $1000 worth of options.


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## tkepner (Jun 13, 2013)

*Your cover is what attracts attention FIRST!* Not your writing, not your formatting, your cover can make people pick up your book first. Later, after the reviews come in, word-of-mouth and those reviews will sell your book.

You should spend as much on cover design and creation as you do copy-editing (and the publishers typically budget thousands of dollars for covers, far more than they pay their copy-editors to do the book). And they spend many hours coming up with the designs they use.

Yes, you can do it cheaper. And a lot of those cheaper covers look exactly that way, cheap. If you can find a very good cover at a reasonable price, grab it.


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## AutumnKQ (Jul 27, 2013)

Editing: $700-$1300 for a full-length 90-100k novel
Cover: $200 - $600
Formatting: $0
Marketing: $300 over the course of a few months to a year?
Audiobook Narration: A few hundred


I haven't put out a full-length novel, but based on what I know editing is costing me for my shorter work, I think what I wrote above will be what my novel ends up costing me.

I agree about the cover being really important. Before I decided to indie pub, I was a reader who wouldn't even read the blurb on Amazon if the cover looked cheap. If I read a sample with a ton of typos, I'm out. I won't buy it. Even if the story is great, I simply can't get through it.  I'm not convinced that marketing is as important as a great story, cover, and editing. I know of authors who have sold a lot of books without much marketing.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

MacBook Pro 1200 euro
Scrivener 40$
iPad with bluetooth keyboard 500$
Quickmill 820 espresso machine (second hand) 150 euro


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

I spend a grand total of 0 cents when I started.  

That's right: not a single cent! 

Wouldn't recommend it though.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

For novels, my budget usually looks like:

Copy-editing: 150-250 (depends on length of novel)
Cover: 30-325 (depends on genre)
Paperback formatting: free to 80 (I do my own ebook formatting and the paperback formatting is generally 30-50 but sometimes higher)

Everything else I do for myself.  For my short stories and such, many of them sold to magazines or anthologies, so I got free editing. Or I use my husband because he catches 98% of typos in shorter works (I could use him for longer works, but I feel that's putting too much on him and want him to read for enjoyment and to give me bigger picture feedback on the novels).  

Generally my rule on a book is that if I have to sell more than 100 copies to earn back what it cost to publish it, I've probably spent too much.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

For editing and proofreading, cover and formatting, I budget a grand.

Audiobook will cost you about $2500 unless you use the royalty share option, which you'll deeply regret if it sells well. The dumbest $2500 you'll have ever saved.

Marketing, probably $500 to $1000 over the life of the book.

All in, call it couple grand for the ebook. If it sells decently I'll recoup that within the first couple weeks.

And before everyone starts in on how not everybody can sell that many in a few weeks, consider carefully that I used that exact budget when I figured it would take me a year per title to recoup it (assuming I ever did). My theory was that there might be a reason that well-edited, well-packaged, appropriately marketed books sell better than poorly or non-edited, badly packaged, poorly or non-marketed books. I frankly don't get the immediate gratification notion that you'll make your investment back quickly (no other business works that way, so why should one of the most competitive on the planet?). And I know, I know, not everyone can afford to invest in their work, and we'd all be poorer for it if we weren't lavished with their precious snowflakes in a glutted market. Personally, mmm, not so much. I find it just an excuse to cut corners, but hey, everyone's got an opinion.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> For editing and proofreading, cover and formatting, I budget a grand.
> 
> Audiobook will cost you about $2500 unless you use the royalty share option, which you'll deeply regret if it sells well. The dumbest $2500 you'll have ever saved.
> 
> ...


I generally pay attention to who does well and what they say. I've used a similar logic and budget to what you have quoted, sir. So far the book is doing pretty well in the UK, not so much in the USA but I haven't started promoting yet.

I am going to use Mr. Nobody's profit/promotion percentages.

So far, so good.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

For my best-selling book (book 1 of the trilogy below, which is actually free at the moment), I spent $5 on purchasing the background image. That's it. Everything else I either did myself or bartered.

For my later works, I spent even less.

I have probably spent $1000 for all books combined.

My philosophy is this:

If you are confident that you have the innate ability to write with a low level of SPAG errors (and this is an important if), I would prioritise spending as follows:

1. The cover. It's simply got to look attractive.
2. Proofread/light edit. Because you never catch everything.
2a. If you *don't* have the innate ability to write relatively error-free prose, then editing should be number 1 priority and cover second.
3. Print formatting. Because CS does a pretty ordinary job at this
4. Marketing. Run some ads if you want. Not mandatory.
5. Ebook format. Because many bestsellers are simply uploaded as .DOC files, and readers don't pay much attention to this, much less require it. An ebook is a HTML document and it must flow freely. Any formatting restrictions you impose on it are going to look crappy on some devices for some people. I've seen some *really crappy* ebook formatting from big 6 books. The simpler, the more robust. Don't waste your money on ebook formatting.

I'm about to spend *mumble-mumble* amount of money to have a book edited by a "real" editor, with credentials. She also works as freelancer for the big 6. Since I call myself a "backyard editor", I hope to learn from this experience so that it will bleed over into my other books. I'm using this as training exercise and also to test my writing against industry standard.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Kelsye said:


> What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*
> 
> I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


It looks like there are no exacts.
But please have someone proofread it and a nice cover helps.


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## Vanades (Aug 10, 2012)

I guess it depends on what kind of budget you want to do. Are you only thinking about outsourced investments (cover, formatting, marketing-costs) or are you thinking about a complete calculation that factors in the total costs of a book?

With the latter you would also have to factor in the writer's time: the time spend writing, editing, doing marketing etc. As well as things like electricity, rent, paper, ink, investments in hardware and software (percentages), etc. 

The one thing I really miss in the budgets I've seen so far is a position for the writer's time (hourly rates would probably work best), because to have a complete budget you would have to factor in your own time as well. It's after all the largest investment.


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## John H. Carroll (Nov 26, 2010)

Budget All my money goes to feeding my family publishing - Under $50

Developmental edit - free (Workshops, friends, class)
Copy editing - free (friends, family, fans, numerous time doing it yourself while constantly improving)
Cover Design - $0 (Public Domain photos, spouse as photographer, GIMP)
Book formatting and layout - free (I've gotten pretty good at this)
Printing - $33 (Print on demand, optional $25 expanded distribution, $4.00 proof, $4.00 shipping.)
ISBN - Smashwords/Kobo/Createspace free.
Author photo - free (Your Facebook profile picture is fine)
Marketing - free (Rely on social media and friends and family only)
Website - free (Use free WordPress option(or Blogger))
Mailing List - free (Mad Mimi for me)
All other labor - hugs (for the emo bunny minions)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Kelsye said:


> What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*
> 
> I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


To quote the brilliant mind of beloved Peanuts character Lucy Van Pelt, "It should be five cents."


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## S. Shine (Jan 14, 2013)

How much it should cost to self-publish a book is, of course, to be determined on a case by case basis; what one person needs is not necessary what another person needs. But, of course, anyone with half a brain could have figured that out for themselves. It would be rather arrogant and petty, not to mention dumb, to presume that ones own needs must be the needs of all.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Developmental edit: Trusted beta readers
Line/copyedit: $600-$800 (generally $30-$50 an hour) (this is for two passes)
Proofread: less than $200
Formatting: $100 to $400 depending on what I'm after
Cover art: $450.00
LSI set up: $75

----

Total: $1500 to $2000


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Kelsye said:


> What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*
> 
> I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


Well, I'm not aware of many folks who go your "Big Spender" route.

Your "Smart Spender?" That seems not completely out to lunch... there are people who spend that much. Frequently.

But your Budget Spender? One can do it for far less. Here's what you specified:



> Budget publishing - Under $500
> 
> Developmental edit - free (Workshops, friends, class)
> Copy editing $300 (College student)
> ...


I'll give you an ACTUAL "budget publishing" plan - Under $80.00:

Developmental edit - $0.00 (find some volunteer beta-readers)
Copy editing - $0 (Trade copy-edits with another trusted author, and also be a decent self-editor to begin with. Obviously not everyone can do this, but it is done.)
Cover Design - $5 or less (License a photo or two from a place like iStockphoto or someplace, then do-it-yourself)
Book formatting and layout - free (Do it yourself using Scrivener or other free tools or even Draft2Digital)
Printing - free (use CreateSpace)
Expanded Distribution of Print Book via CreateSpace - $25* (*a luxury that can be cut, but a good luxury to invest in)
ISBN - Use the free ones provided by CreateSpace and Smashwords; use a free ASIN on Amazon or BNID on Nook)
Author photo - free (have a spouse or relative use your Galaxy S3 or S4 and make sure it's nice. Crop it and refine as needed in GIMP)
Marketing - free (rely on book blogger sites that accept ePub, .mobi and PDF files and don't require a physical copy)
Website - free (Blogspot and Wordpress work just fine, so the only investment is your time. Or maybe $10-12/year for a custom domain name)
US Copyright Office registration - $35 (this is one expense that I never go "budget route" on because I actually know what's fact and what's myth about copyright registration... It's one luxury no one should cut.

My total? $65 to $77.*

Sure, you're trading away a lot of credibility if you rely on a proofreader who's not good (but paying for someone isn't a guarantee of high quality, either), or if you can't proofread anything yourself, or if your cover design skills are subpar.

But assuming you can pull some proofreading and basic cover design skills out of your background and experience, as some of us can... It's a LOT easier to turn a profit with a budget that doesn't even exceed $80. 

Am I suggesting one NEVER pay for pro editing or pro covers or pro formatting?

NOT AT ALL.

But if you have a decent skill set, AND have way more time than money... my only point is that you can spend WELL below $500 (about 13-16.5 percent of that, actually) and have a lot less overhead per book to overcome.

I typically spend more. My three published books so far have covers I paid for and proofing I paid for, but I still spent a lot less than $500 per book. Probably around the $250 to $300 range, roughly.

**NOTE: If one foregoes printing, and debuts their book as an eBook only, that $65-$77 can be trimmed back further. Don't need the $25 for Expanded Distribution if you're not doing print to begin with. So that'd cut the costs down to $40-$52.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Haha, who on earth would spend $400 on a author photo? An iPhone and a mate is is pretty much all you need.


For me -

Editing/proofreading - $200 or so ($17.50/hour)
Cover - $60
Formatting (paperback) - $45

Before, when I thought I could do it all myself, I got complaints about errors, bad layout, rubbish covers, etc. Now, even with those tiny outlays, I get no complaints at all. Guess I must be writing okay ...


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## kwest (Mar 16, 2013)

Well...I now see that I pay relatively little. I pay $150 per cover (both CreateSpace and ebook versions), pay for stock images, and I pay for basic copy editing ($1 per 1,000 words through a guy I know on ODesk). What I pay is WAY cheap for copy editing, and admittedly my guy doesn't catch everything, but he catches a LOT...far more than I would. I'm a decent typist, so thankfully, that's not much of a concern for me. Most of my reviewers don't complain about typos (although they used to, when I didn't invest in the copy editing).

So grand total: about $200-$250 per book. That's a little less than my royalties every month, so that's a good balance for me. If I ever make the big bucks, I'll throw much more at my books, for sure. Honestly, I really don't think it's necessary to spend $1,000+ on a book, but I do think it adds to your chances of success. Ultimately, it comes down to your story and having that awesome cover that draws them in.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

For ebook only, usually $20 for stock art (http://www.amazon.com/Christa-Wick/e/B00684JIKK/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1). Maybe more if I want a new font I don't already own. All other costs are monthly overhead (cs6, website, mailchimp).

Maybe if I wrote in a genre outside romance I wouldn't do my own covers (especially if I did SF or Fantasy).

No beta readers, editors, proofers, or formatters. I'm not sure there's a single title in my catalog that went live having had more than just my eyes on it.

I did consider getting a formatter for the Createspace interior file and cover. When I was told I wouldn't get a copy of the base PSD/ID files (HUGE PET PEEVE OF MINE), I decided to try it myself. No sweat and I am satisfied with how they came out. Saved minimum of $150 (interior files) times 3. I don't think the time involved in performing these tasks was more than I would have spent managing someone else doing it.

Totally think marketing/PR $ is a waste (beyond my mailchimp auto-responder fee and my monthly web hosting costs).

Of course, before I self-published my fiction, I wrote, edited, formatted, marketed and published for a Fortune 500 audience.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> Developmental edit: Trusted beta readers


Are you saying that your beta readers are your developmental editors? Editors are alpha readers... or so I thought.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> My theory was that there might be a reason that well-edited, well-packaged, appropriately marketed books sell better than poorly or non-edited, badly packaged, poorly or non-marketed books.


Readers are smart. They'll vote with their pocketbooks. Digital Book World reported today that out of the top 25 ebook bestsellers this week, NONE of them were self-published. The one that came closest was Amazon Publishing, but we know that's traditional now.

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/ebook-best-sellers-hovering-near-7-00/

And BTW the average eBook price was US$7.22. That tells me again that readers are willing to pay a bit more for better written books. Is there a rush to publish for SP? Let's not bypass editing for the sake of the race.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Holy cow, you guys are spending a bundle. 

Each for 24 books I spent:

$35.00 for cover art - mostly from Book Cover Art
$150.00 for editing
$0.00 for author picture, took it off an old one I had
$0.00 for website, Google is free
$0.00 - do my own, a word doc works just fine
$200.00 in three years for advertisements that didn't do much. 
$0.00 - blog


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> Are you saying that your beta readers are your developmental editors? Editors are alpha readers... or so I thought.


A developmental edit is when you get an edit that discusses structural changes. i.e. that plot point doesn't make sense, or maybe you should make your character do X rather than Y. This character is flat, while that character's actions don't make any sense... etc etc. I use beta readers (I've never heard the term Alpha Reader) to read my books and comment on those points specifically. I do this once I think I have the book polished to the best of MY ability. I then take their criticisms into consideration. When I am confident I haven't made any egregious errors in plot, characterization and pacing, I begin to hire professional editors to put the book through the polishing phase (line edit, copyedit, proofread).


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> A developmental edit is when you get an edit that discusses structural changes. i.e. that plot point doesn't make sense, or maybe you should make your character do X rather than Y. This character is flat, while that character's actions don't make any sense... etc etc. I use beta readers (I've never heard the term Alpha Reader) to read my books and comment on those points specifically. I do this once I think I have the book polished to the best of MY ability. I then take their criticisms into consideration. When I am confident I haven't made any egregious errors in plot, characterization and pacing, I begin to hire professional editors to put the book through the polishing phase (line edit, copyedit, proofread).


I still like the idea of getting a professional developmental editor to do a once-over, and then a copy/line editor to comb it, and then a proofreader to pick up the lint.

I might be promoting my inner circle beta readers to be my first readers. If they can spot errors then I can self-edit myself before I send the mss to paid editors, which will then become my 2nd wave of readers. The more changes that paid editors say I have to make, the more it will cost me a pretty penny.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> I still like the idea of getting a professional developmental editor to do a once-over, and then a copy/line editor to comb it, and then a proofreader to pick up the lint.
> 
> I might be promoting my inner circle beta readers to be my first readers. If they can spot errors then I can self-edit myself before I send the mss to paid editors, which will then become my 2nd wave of readers. The more changes that paid editors say I have to make, the more it will cost me a pretty penny.


Oh, no, I actually agree. I think a professional developmental edit would be awesome. But I wouldn't want it done by someone who wasn't experienced, and who couldn't point me to professional work they've done. Those people aren't cheap. I have considered a manuscript critique by a professional editor before... the idea is I want someone familiar with my genre/market to give me the feedback.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> Oh, no, I actually agree. I think a professional developmental edit would be awesome. But I wouldn't want it done by someone who wasn't experienced, and who couldn't point me to professional work they've done. Those people aren't cheap. I have considered a manuscript critique by a professional editor before... the idea is I want someone familiar with my genre/market to give me the feedback.


Absolutely. That's a good checklist. I totally agree that the developmental editor needs to have done work in the genre we write in. For copyedit, not so much because they can pick through the grammar and usage and such. But for developmental editor, if I hire a professional editor who only does historical fiction and doesn't do suspense, and I put my thriller in front of her, I'm going to NOT like what I'm paying for. I write both genres, and I can tell you that I put on different hats every time I pick up the mss. Even the voice, the speech, the story are altogether different in different genres. If a professional editor can't handle my genre, we're both wasting time.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

What's obvious is that there are many different approaches and opinions. I'll say this: I've written over three million words and counting, do three drafts on my work, and have a trusted beta reader who used to be my editor read it for content and flow, and I still would never presume that my polish rounds were the equivalent of a line edit and a proofreading. I've seen the difference when I hand over what I thought was a "near-perfect" MS, only to have it come back from the proofreader's covered in red ink. As in dozens and dozens of nits. Missed words. Confounded names. Extra spaces.

Now, some might argue that doesn't matter. I happen to believe it does. Obviously, I fancy my approach, even though it's more expensive, because I've learned the hard way that it's very hard to get and keep readers, and quite easy to lose them. If I read something with more than a couple of gotchas in it, it changes my reading experience, and pulls me out of the story. And I won't likely pay for that experience again. My view is that if the author can't or won't do the work to ensure my experience is as good as a decent trad pub book, then I won't waste what small amount of time I have investing in their work. There are too many authors who are doing it right for me to put up with stuff that's shoddy or ill-crafted.

Is my view the end-all? Absolutely not. I have read Top 10 NA novels where simple words were confounded within the first 10 pages, and it got worse from there. Things like hurtled/hurdled or discreet/discrete or shuttered/shuddered. Common oopsy-daisies that any reasonable proofreader would have caught. And yet they sell. Only not to me. I tend to view it as sloppy, and ultimately, contemptuous of my time as a reader by an author who doesn't value me enough to do it right. Perhaps I just take it personally because I'm now in the business, but frankly I've always been like that. I'm probably not your average reader. Then again, for every person who leaves a review saying your book sucks because it's poorly edited or crafted, I believe there will be a hundred who don't bother. But I see a few of those reviews on a book, and it makes me think twice about buying it. Which usually translates into not buying it. Why risk my time, which is so precious to me, and of which I have no guarantees of much more? No, thanks.

In the end, I suppose my position on professional editing is one of erring on the side of caution. I value my reader way too much to not invest in polishing my work as well as I can have it done. Even then, nits will slip through. But it won't be for lack of effort or money on my part. That's a philosophical stance more than a business one, or rather, it's a philosophical business stance I've learned over the years. If you don't demand excellence out of yourself, and your work, including the editing and packaging thereof, then short-changing the customer, and they'll resent you for it. Nobody is forcing us to write books, nor customers to buy them. They're entertainment, not food and water. And other than our ability to tell a story, our product will be measured by things like grammar, punctuation, formatting, cover design. If any of those are amateurish, we will be judged amateurs, and rightly so.

To me, it's about respect. I want my readers and my peers to respect my work. Not because of how much I sell, or don't. Rather, because that's who I am. It's a representation of me, a synthesis of my years of effort, my philosophy, my abilities, my approach. I'm willing to invest in not being judged as inferior by people I'm asking to pay for my work. I want them to get maximum value for their money, and to tell their friends with confidence to buy my books. If I thought I could save myself a grand on each screed, believe me, I would. But it's the worst grand I'd ever save, and I think it would ultimately cost me much more than a thousand in lost sales. It would cost me the respect of my readers. The hardest thing to earn and the easiest to lose.

That, I'm not willing to risk.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> If I read something with more than a couple of gotchas in it, it changes my reading experience, and pulls me out of the story. And I won't likely pay for that experience again. My view is that if the author can't or won't do the work to ensure my experience is as good as a decent trad pub book, then I won't waste what small amount of time I have investing in their work. There are too many authors who are doing it right for me to put up with stuff that's shoddy or ill-crafted.


You are not the only reader who reads like that. Many of us avid readers do. I read literature, commercial fiction, and non-fiction all the time. I can speak for myself that I am very nit-picky about the books I read. If the MC is drinking coffee in one paragraph and then pouring out TEA from the same cup into the sink in the next paragraph, I would say that the novel has not been properly edited. If the MC changes names halfway through the book for no rhyme of reason, that's bad. Worse yet is when the plot has so many holes that you know a developmental editor would have caught all that in a heartbeat.

Here's the catch: No one will say that it was the editor's or the beta reader's fault. The blame will always be on the... (drumroll)... WRITER!

They say that the first chapter sells the rest of the book, and the last chapter sells the next book. When readers choose to buy someone else's books because they're written better, then some income has left the building.



blakebooks said:


> In the end, I suppose my position on professional editing is one of erring on the side of caution.


I agree with this statement. It's a catch-22, though, because of funding issues for many SP authors. That is why I have writer friends who are still not doing SP. They don't want to have to deal with the publishing side of it. Marketing, yes, but editing, no. They'd rather just send their manuscripts to a trad publisher and collect their 10% eBook royalties. Now smaller indie publishers are springing up, and some writers are getting 40% across the board for both eBooks and printed books.

But for the rest of us brave souls, if we want to do SP, I think we need to remember that we have to do what publishers do -- produce the best product possible so we'll have repeat customers.

Over and over, TP novels go through at least 4-5 rounds of edits before they are published. Last month I read a historical fiction that was written by an ex-editor turned writer. Knowing she was an ex-editor, I paid extra careful attention to everything to look for mistakes. I looked for plotting problems, story arc, characterization, usage, grammar, tenses, adjectives, etc, etc. I found ZERO problems. None. That is the standard that SP authors have to attain. Even the eBook was well designed and formatted. Not a single letter out of place. Not a single stray mark anywhere. Couldn't SP do just as well, if not better?


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2013)

How much should it cost?  As much as you need to produce a quality product, and not a penny more.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> Audiobook will cost you about $2500 unless you use the royalty share option, which you'll deeply regret if it sells well. The dumbest $2500 you'll have ever saved.


Ahh, but you assume all authors are mercenary about money.

I'm not. I'm glad to offer an audiobook vocal artist (I've worked with two so far) the royalty share option because if it does take off, it's just as much their success as mine and they should get their fair share in it.

Frankly, I think folks with your viewpoint are the REAL penny-pinchers here, and show less respect for the contributions of a VO artist, than those of us who do offer royalty share.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> My theory was that there might be a reason that well-edited, well-packaged, appropriately marketed books sell better than poorly or non-edited, badly packaged, poorly or non-marketed books.


Well, for one thing, your central thesis is faulty.

You central thesis is that there are only two categories for books to fall in.

On the one side, you have the great stuff that's expensive, and on the other, the terrible stuff that's cheap.

It's more complex than that.

I point to pre-traditional Amanda Hocking as an example; she paid a lot of good money for what she thought were good editors, but her early self-pubbbed work needed lots of help even after she forked over good money for bad editing.

So paying for services doesn't guarantee professional results. This is even true in my own experiences. I've had all three of my books professionally edited, and all three had things I found that the editor missed, changes the editor submitted that were wrong, and even after I had several sets of eyes of varying skill go over them, there have been more things found. (Not that there were ever a ton; but if you pay for editing and are still finding 3-5 things that were overlooked every six months or so, well... it just goes to show that no one's perfect. Publishing houses in New York catch as much as they do not because of employing superior editors (necessarily) so much as, if you have a house with an editing staff of 50 and most of them at least look at each book published once briefly, plus at least a dozen eyes looking at it closely and several times... sheer numbers of eyeballs catch more than any single editor ever could, regardless of how skilled they are.

So, yeah, I just don't buy that paying for ONE editor (no matter how much they charge) to look at a manuscript is gonna do as good a job as just getting it in front of a LOT of eyeballs... which means if you go the cheaper route, you need a great critique group, a healthy number of beta readers... anything to increase the number of people who look it over before you publish. And you must be open to the feedback you get and can't treat your words like the Holy Writ.

And you also assume mistakenly that any book that hasn't paid for an editor (or two, at most) to rifle through your manuscript is automatically amateurish and full of mistakes.

I've noticed work by a number of self-edited authors that is cleaner and leaner that work by authors who claim to have hired 2-3 top editors.

So, I disagree that there are only two distinct categories... those who lay out a ton of money to have things done by professionals, and those who take a more DIY approach and whose books automatically stink. I think there are many gradations of quality between those extremes. I know, because I read a lot, including both indie and traditional authors.

Finally, please note that I am not suggesting that the DIY/Budget approach is the right choice for every author. One has to be honest with themselves about their own strengths and weaknesses. If you can't edit a cover photo to save your life, have no sense of design, then pay someone to do a cover for you.

If you have a decent sense of story structure and no one in your critique group/beta readers group is telling you otherwise, DIY could be just fine in terms of bypassing developmental editing, or at least in terms of paying someone to do that. But if everyone is telling you "your POV jumps around too much; I get confused; why was there a flashback-within-a-flashback-within-a-flash-forward; or other structural questions of similar concern, then find a good developmental editor and pay to have it done.

If you spent years behind an editor's desk, know the critical differences between the CMoS and the AP Libel and Stylebook, and which is appropriate to use for the type of book you're dealing with, and you catch more than your El Cheapo Proofo guy does, you're probably better off not spending a ton on proofing unless you can afford really good proofing. However, if u spel lik ths andd thynk itll' be fyne bcuz who carz, u can reddit, then yeah... fork over the money for proofing.

If you have a great sense of book design and know how to clean up garbage from your document (and know what I mean by that) until it's lean and clean, and you have even done work formatting stuff before, you don't need professional formatting. But if you still think (and many writers do) that the best way to star a new chapter on a new page is to keep the Enter key pressed down until you come to one, and all your empty paragraphs are full of spaces for no reason at all, and you don't know what styles are, and you're not sure how to use a page break but you're pretty sure it might make your book bleed? Pay for some professional book formatting.

Every professional author's service has it's place. It can be a real time saver for an author who has more money to spend and gets irritated at investing the time it takes to follow a solid DIY approach because that's time they could spend working on something new: paying professionals to help you out IS for you.

But if you're next-to-penniless, have more time than money, but have a decent skill set and tools, you might be able to save a lot of money by going a DIY approach. But you must be honest with yourself about your skill level and hire out the services you can't swap for, do yourself, or have done for free.

Whichever route one chooses, the goal is always the same: the best possible book one is capable of producing at a given time or place.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that throwing money at things makes 'em all "just fine."

There are many authors who've spent $1,000 for a cover because they thought it would "show" and got a crap cover instead, after bypassing a perfectly good $200 cover.

Money invested in one's own career should be invested wisely, not widely. Learn to recognize talent and pay for those who are good, not just those who cost the most.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Kelsye said:


> How much should it cost to self-publish a book?


There is no 'should'. It depends upon each person.

It's like asking how much it should cost to redo your bathroom. That would depend on how much you can do yourself. Are you good at soldering pipes? Putting up drywall? Installing tubs? Tiling floors? Painting? If not, you're going to have to hire someone to do all that for you. If you can do some of those things, your costs will go down. If you can do them all, your costs will drop significantly.

In the end, it's the readers who'll decide whether you've done a good job. Spending $5,000 on a book doesn't guarantee it's going to be a story worth reading, just as spending practically nothing on it doesn't mean readers will hate it.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> In the end, I suppose my position on professional editing is one of erring on the side of caution. I value my reader way too much to not invest in polishing my work as well as I can have it done. Even then, nits will slip through. But it won't be for lack of effort or money on my part. That's a philosophical stance more than a business one, or rather, it's a philosophical business stance I've learned over the years. If you don't demand excellence out of yourself, and your work, including the editing and packaging thereof, then short-changing the customer, and they'll resent you for it. Nobody is forcing us to write books, nor customers to buy them. They're entertainment, not food and water. And other than our ability to tell a story, our product will be measured by things like grammar, punctuation, formatting, cover design. If any of those are amateurish, we will be judged amateurs, and rightly so.
> 
> To me, it's about respect. I want my readers and my peers to respect my work. Not because of how much I sell, or don't. Rather, because that's who I am. It's a representation of me, a synthesis of my years of effort, my philosophy, my abilities, my approach. I'm willing to invest in not being judged as inferior by people I'm asking to pay for my work. I want them to get maximum value for their money, and to tell their friends with confidence to buy my books. If I thought I could save myself a grand on each screed, believe me, I would. But it's the worst grand I'd ever save, and I think it would ultimately cost me much more than a thousand in lost sales. It would cost me the respect of my readers. The hardest thing to earn and the easiest to lose.
> 
> That, I'm not willing to risk.


Russell, one point you're missing here is that while you're passing judgment on those who spend less than you, you're being judged yourself by those spending more than you.

Look at the link in the OP. It's listing three different costs for self-publishing:



> Budget publishing - Under $500
> Big spender - Upwards of $20,000
> Smart spender - About $4,000


And you've stated this:



blakebooks said:


> All in, call it couple grand for the ebook. If it sells decently I'll recoup that within the first couple weeks.


So, you're not even reaching their level of 'Smart spender'. In their eyes, you're short changing your readers. You're not caring enough about the quality of your product to invest in it.

And even if you did spend $4,000, those spending $20,000 will look down their noses at you, claiming you haven't gone that extra step.

In short, if you were hanging out with the group of self-published authors the OP hangs out with, you'd be the cheap bastard who's refusing to invest in his writing.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

I'm lucky, because I get stuff like editing and cover design done for free. If I had to pay for it, I'd be out of business. (I do my own formatting. Takes like two minutes.)

Most of my stock photos also come for free because _reasons_. Although sometimes I do have to pay for it, and I never spend more than 10 bucks for a stock photo.

For my paperbacks I will buy the $10 CS ISBN.

Otherwise, my only expenses are my yearly business fee ($50) and my webhosting, which I already paid for for other reasons. Except now it's a tax writeoff.

I put out sometimes up to six titles a month, so I have to be as cheap and as economical as possible. Paying more than $20 bucks a month is just not feasible for me. And I believe that my system works just fine for me, and for other people I help, so I would say that those figures in the OP are really, really high.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, how much you spend won't necessarily have anything to do with how much the book earns.  I have books I've spent over 1k on between editing and covers that have yet to make more than 500 bucks.  I have a short story that has made over a thousand dollars and cost me less than 5 to publish.  It all depends.


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

Unless you're totally unable to do anything on your own and you don't like to look for the free activities that are everywhere you'll end up paying more than$500 to $1,000.

There's a ton of want-a-be's out there that offer their wares but you can usually do better.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Yeah, how much you spend won't necessarily have anything to do with how much the book earns. I have books I've spent over 1k on between editing and covers that have yet to make more than 500 bucks. I have a short story that has made over a thousand dollars and cost me less than 5 to publish. It all depends.


Your Flashover cover is one of the most memorable I have ever seen.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Your Flashover cover is one of the most memorable I have ever seen.


Thanks. I think it cost about 6 bucks (the stock image price. All photo manip and text was done by myself and a friend of mine).


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Craig: I'm sorry, we have to agree to disagree. If someone wants me to pay them $250 an hour to read my book, and that's a fair number they came up with, then it's work for hire and I'm under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to share in the rewards that me taking 100% of the risk brings. My job as a publisher is to maximize the revenue of Me, Inc., not create a fluffy marshmallow world where all live in harmony together. If that's mercenary, so be it. I call it smart business. You may choose to share whatever of your revenue stream however you like, and more power to you. I look at the business side of this as a business, not as a philanthropic endeavor, and as a business, it's about making the business as profitable as possible.

And sure, it's possible to hire a bum editor who misses a lot of stuff. That's called doing your due diligence and being a smart shopper. I personally pay two editors to do line by line editing, as well as a proofreader, because regardless of the rhetoric, I want as good a product as I can get, not as cheap a one as I can. If your approach is working well for you, super, have at it. I'll stick with mine. No hard feelings, but it's producing solid, consistent results, and I'm more than happy with them.

Swolf: No, I'm not passing judgment on those that spend less than me. I've said that I have one friend who does her own editing and proofing, and turns out as seamless a product as any trad pub. She's the exception. If she wasn't, then you pick up 10 SP books, and they would all be well-edited masterpieces. My experience has been that you pick up 10 SP books, and nine will border on unreadable, and perhaps the tenth will be competently executed. Maybe your experience has been different, or maybe it's just the genre I read in, but that's been the case. 

And yes, I'd be the cheapskate in that crowd. My goal is always to get the very best job possible for the least I need to spend. Again, my duty as a publisher is to maximize my profit without sacrificing on quality. I've got a system that achieves that. For me, it works. And BTW, others might well have systems that work for them. If they do, that's great. I just haven't found one that works as well as two editors and a proofreader. I've done it with one editor and a proofreader, and it wasn't as good a result. I've done it with seven to nine drafts and a beta reader, and that was pretty good, but wasn't a good expenditure of my time. So this is what I've come up with. Ultimately, I believe that as the market matures, the distinction between SP and TP will be lost on most readers, and they will simply see well-edited books, and poorly-edited books. In that market, the better edited efforts will succeed, and the budget minded efforts that fail to meet the quality bar will lose. It's evolution, and my sole purpose here is to offer some advice on how to avoid being road kill in that environment.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

What I have learned from this thread.
You can publish a book on a shoestring or you can publish it on a silk scarf. 
You can also price your book for whatever you think it is worth.
Heck you can price a crappy book cheap enough people will buy it and not return it.
Here is the main thing: you may or may not get a return on your investment.

What else I have learned is if I ever do decide to go back into the creative business, it will be with writing and not with crafts.    Crafts if 20 people want your vase, you are out the supplies and the time spent 20 times.  You will also get mightly tired of looking at that pattern.  At least with a book you only have to write it once and 1 person, 20 people or 20,000 people can buy it but you are only out the time and expenses (per se) once.  So I see more profit in writing.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Must ask:
How can one tell an SP from a TP at a glance?

And Blakebooks if you can tell me that I will gladly look at 10 SP books and give you a ratio.  Though of the last 2 SP's that I have read or attempted to read, it is at 50%.
Oh wait I caught some short stories and of the last 5 of them 4 were not good.  So that would make it 80% bad.

Though someone do please tell me how to tell the difference.  Heck I thought JA Konrath was an SP till I saw Whiskey Sour in a bookstore.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I'm not. I'm glad to offer an audiobook vocal artist (I've worked with two so far) the royalty share option because if it does take off, it's just as much their success as mine and they should get their fair share in it.


I happen to agree with you, Craig. Yes, your wrote the words that the actor is performing, but audiobook listeners choose this medium rather than print for a reason -- the performance. If an audiobook is successful, it's every bit as much because of the narrator (and possibly moreso) than the author.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Must ask:
> How can one tell an SP from a TP at a glance?
> 
> And Blakebooks if you can tell me that I will gladly look at 10 SP books and give you a ratio. Though of the last 2 SP's that I have read or attempted to read, it is at 50%.
> ...


JA Konrath is hybrid.

Often, it's the covers that give the self published author away. The thing is, it doesn't matter if you're self published or trad published, what matters is if you're well published. And doing things on a shoestring, or all on your own because you can't afford to do it another way, is the WRONG way to do it. Doing it cheap because you have the skills, or have people with the skills to do it for free for you is FINE. Self publishing is not DIY publishing. You need to wear the hat of the author and publisher. If a publisher offered you a contract and told you, "Oh, by the way, we don't have money to hire professionals, so I'm going to be the editor, and graphic designer and marketer..." I'm pretty sure you'd run for the hills. I would. I can't think of anyone who has all those skills. Again, I'm not saying you HAVE to pay for it. If you can barter, or trade, or beg, or negotiate... heck, all the power to you. But most people can't do that.

I pay for professional cover design because I'm not an artist. I pay for professional editing because I'm not an editor. And something to remember: Editor, is not an entry level position. It isn't a title you get from getting a degree in English, nor is it a title you get because you were pretty good at proofing work for a friend. Editors have specific skills that they've acquired through *continuing* education and professional training. They've worked under editors, and developed those skills. They're the ones who know when conventions have changed. It's not about knowing if it's "who" or "whom" because sometimes "who" is technically wrong, but correct for the manuscript. Also, I like to think of editors like doctors. They're specialists. You don't find a line editor who does science fiction novels as well as children's picture books.

Something to remember: your competition isn't other self published authors. Your competition is all the books beside you on the shelf. Most of those are trad. published.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: I'm sorry, we have to agree to disagree. If someone wants me to pay them $250 an hour to read my book, and that's a fair number they came up with, then it's work for hire and I'm under no obligation, moral or otherwise, to share in the rewards that me taking 100% of the risk brings. My job as a publisher is to maximize the revenue of Me, Inc., not create a fluffy marshmallow world where all live in harmony together. If that's mercenary, so be it. I call it smart business. You may choose to share whatever of your revenue stream however you like, and more power to you. I look at the business side of this as a business, not as a philanthropic endeavor, and as a business, it's about making the business as profitable as possible.


This is your response to my first post last night, which was complete before we experienced an area-wide Internet outage on Comcast.

So I'll respond thusly:

You're coming off a bit arrogant, sir, as though your way of doing things is the ONLY right way to do them. An audiobook is a product of TWO creative people: 1) The author who wrote the story, and 2) The vocal artist who brings it to life.

By dismissing the royalty-split option as "a fluffy marshmallow world" and all that manure you were shoveling, you're showing extreme disrespect to those actors who read fiction to make part of their living. If that's truly your view of them, then I hope word of your view of them spreads throughout their community and they jack up their fees for your accordingly.

Remember, Mr. Blake, these are public, and publicly-searchable, forums. While you may believe you composed a witty little dismissive response only for my benefit, to make me feel foolish compared to you, mine are not the only eyes who will have access to your comments on "the hired help."

I may do some things DIY at times; but when I hire help, I choose a compensation mechanism that seems right to me.

Covers, editing, formatting: all these are the work of skilled craftsmen, to be sure, but the book would exist (in less-refined form, arguably) with or without hiring out those skilled professionals. So a flat-fee seems a more reasonable form of compensation, in those cases.

But without a voice artist (who has access to more than just a microphone and a PC, typically... both VO artists I've dealt with have invested in pro-level home studios) there is no audio book. Unless you think you have a reading voice that picky audiophiles are going to enjoy, in which case, DIY is an option. But someone needs to perform those words... flawlessly. Otherwise it's just a print book.

I would compare the writer-VO artist relationship in producing audiobooks as pretty much an equal collaboration of two artists of different disciplines. Without the VO artist, you just have a bunch of prose and no audio component. Without the writer, the VO artist has nothing to read. Only by equal collaboration of two artists do their efforts combine to create an audiobook.

It's similar to the collaboration level between a writer and a pencil-artist in the world of comic books and graphic novels. Take away the artist and all you have is a script. Take away the writer and all you have is pretty pictures. Only by equal collaboration does it become a comic book.

So, hurl insults about idealism all you want; but in my view, if the end product is a 50-50 collaboration, then a royalty split option is a legit path to take, and more reflective of how that product came into being.

Plus, royalty-split has this side-benefit: the VO artist knows they'll make more, the more your audiobook sells, so they have an equal motivation (the profit motive) to promote their newest audiobook as you do. The more both of you work to promote the audiobook the more copies that will sell, and thus the more you both earn.

With a profit-motivated VO artist also promoting your audiobook (because it's their work, too, and they'll benefit as well, the more it sells), you'll get more potential exposure than if you just pay a flat fee and that's all they'll ever get out of it. Yes, it's a sacrifice of "potential" income, but that promotional help has value to what an audiobook's maximum exposure might be.

Many VO artists are actors and comics and such who are just getting their start in Hollywood. Imagine the potential exposure if, by offering them work now, in five years they land a part in THE AVENGERS or something, and pretty soon they're a household name. And your book is read by them!

They could, very potentially, have more to do with the success of your audiobook than you do. If they're still earning money off those audiobooks, they might even mention their "past voice work" on a talk show appearance. HUGE exposure.

But if you paid them a flat fee? Why would they bother?

I see the potential for this already with the gal who read SHADA for me. Since completing that work last fall, Chrissy Swinko has gone from struggling comic and YouTube video artist to being part of a repertoire group who does occasional sketches on JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE. The more she appears there, the more doors open for her. At some point, she might get cast in a sitcom.

And once that happens, if it does? Suddenly there will be a lot of Chrissy Swinko fans. People who will search out her name. Who will find SHADA in that search. Who will buy the audiobook because it's something she did.

Yup: she absolutely deserves her half the the royalty split option. Even before any of that happens.

Who's to say every audiobook that does well, does well solely because of the writer? Good sales can just as easily come from the following a good VO artist generates! That's not "fluffy marshmallow world" talk, sir. That's reality.

One of the reasons I'm submitting my latest to a small press and contemplating becoming more of a hybrid writer than a pure indie is this: the idea of an entire company of professionals helping to get my name and work known and out there in front of buyers makes some sense. I, as one person, can only do so much promotion and keep busy writing. If I combine forces with a small press, what I give up in potential income is the trade-off I make for getting a LOT of help in making that next book a success.

You're free to disagree; but I'd be more careful in the future about how you word that disagreement, because you significantly disparaged the contribution of VO artists in the creation of an audiobook.



blakebooks said:


> And sure, it's possible to hire a bum editor who misses a lot of stuff. That's called doing your due diligence and being a smart shopper. I personally pay two editors to do line by line editing, as well as a proofreader, because regardless of the rhetoric, I want as good a product as I can get, not as cheap a one as I can. If your approach is working well for you, super, have at it. I'll stick with mine. No hard feelings, but it's producing solid, consistent results, and I'm more than happy with them.


This is something you wrote in response to a first draft of my posting last night; I expanded on it (and the expansion is now posted) but only completed that second post after the area-wide Comcast Internet Blackout we had here locally late last night... so you may want to re-read that second post, in addition to this response.

And again, your central thesis that paying a lot for someone's services makes them NOT a bum editor. Like money is the solution to human failings.

I say that it's still just one set of eyes. If you want to hire 20 editors and pay each of them, then you'll approach the level of scrutiny a trad-pub book receives.

But no one catches everything. Multiple sets of eyes trumps one set of eyes every single time.

A person can get willing beta readers and swap critiques and so forth with other writers, to increase the number of eyes that go over your manuscript prior to publishing, without spending a penny.

Or someone can find an editor and pay them and fool themselves into thinking that just one set of paid-for eyes makes their book automatically better.

But I'll politely disagree on that count. What makes the difference is the number of eyes, because everyone misses stuff AND every set of eyes will notice something different than someone else didn't catch.

But calling editors who charge lower fees than what you're accustomed to "bums" is YOUR particular prejudice, not mine.

I simply see editors as human, and increasing the number of eyes on a manuscript is the better solution, I think, than paying for one set of "trained" eyes.

Because I've been on both sides of the publishing biz over the last 25-30 years, and even a publishing house I worked for sent out pre-production proofs to groups of first readers, and sometimes those folks caught things our entire editorial staff missed. (And we had some great editors who could recite the CMoS chapter and verse.)

So, as I said, you can go DIY/low-budget or you can hire a team of 20 editors if you wish and pay a small fortune.

But a well-edited manuscript with minimal mistakes is almost always achieved through volume of eyes scrutinizing a manuscript, NOT by how much you pay for one set of eyes to scrutinize it.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Heck you can price a crappy book cheap enough people will buy it and not return it.


Not quite true... LOL... believe it or not, I have friends who've made one of their books perma-free, and still get the occasional return. On a FREE book!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Not quite true... LOL... believe it or not, I have friends who've made one of their books perma-free, and still get the occasional return. On a FREE book!


I was specifically thinking those .99 to 1.99 books that is some people bought with a prepaid credit card, the return fee would eat up anything they spent. Several of those cards have a 1 dollar to 2 dollar fee every time the card is used.

And yes I have returned one FREE book well if you could call it that. 6 words per page + a link for 10 pages does not = a book. No it did not have estimated page numbers either.
Paraphrasing the title The BIG BIG Book of nothing.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> I pay for professional cover design because I'm not an artist.
> 
> Something to remember: your competition isn't other self published authors. Your competition is all the books beside you on the shelf. Most of those are trad. published.


You are right on the editing. Only way I wouldn't hire an editor is if it was a very short piece and I knew exactly what the person publishing it wanted. (besides they would have the edit staff).

On the artist part, I could do a cover for a cross stitch book. Give me graph paper and I can design all day. Hand me a blank piece of paper and the local 1st grader could do a better job.

Oh and the reason I asked if there was an easy way to tell the difference was to see if blake's theory about 9 out of 10 SP's were bad is true. I would be willing to read 10 books for the cause.

Thanks for answering me.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Craig: You've created straw man arguments and then shouted them down. Problem is, they're not my arguments. You're either misconstruing, or misunderstanding. I'm not sure which.

If an actor is hired to appear in a TV show or a film, unless they have negotiated a contract that gives them part of the profits of the show, they do so for the flat fee per episode they agreed to. You may think that's unfair, but it is the industry standard. You may disagree with that, but it's like disagreeing with taxation or the draft - your disagreement doesn't change anything. It's merely your opinion of how the world should work, as opposed to a description of how it does work. 

If someone agrees to take a job I offer for $250 an hour, guess what? That's the deal. They're happy to get the work, and I've shouldered all the risk that it might take months, or years, to make my money back, if I ever do. That's called commerce. Risk/reward. Nobody forces the VA to take that job. Nobody forces me to choose that method to pay, rather than royalty shares. I actually turned down 3 different companies that wanted to pay to do audio on my backlist and pay me a royalty, effectively removing any risk from my end. I exercised my option, and turned them down. It was my option. Not yours. Not theirs. Mine. I did so willingly.

If I come off as insulting it's probably more because the above rankles, and you disagree with what I'm saying, than because I'm trying to be insulting. The fluffy marshmallow comment is my poetic license, which I exercise early and often. Although I might point out that you're using ad hominem argument - where you insult the speaker for his tone, or who he is, rather than his point. I'm afraid when I see ad hominem, I tune out. That's not an insult. That's a statement of my preference for the rules of logic in the use of rhetoric rather than choosing to find insults where none exist so that I can pretend umbrage. 

FWIW, I had over 45 applicants for my last VA opportunity. So your notions of fair or un, while they're precious to you, apparently aren't the consensus among those who are doing it for a living. You can disagree with that philosophy, but thankfully you aren't in my hiring pool. And I think that anyone searching these public forums will figure out pretty quickly that hard cash trumps possible reward down the road for many. A lot of VA artists prefer a bird in the hand to your offered one in the bush. It's their choice to make, just as it's mine to choose how I compensate them.

I didn't call anyone a bum. That's also an invention. When one is more interested in making points abrasively and putting words in other peoples' mouths than in hearing what they're saying, again, I tune out. You're saying that you could pay plenty for an editor and have them be crap. Guess what? That's true of everything. Hotel rooms. Cars. Plumbers. Contractors. Your job as a sentient upright biped is to protect yourself, and get the best value you can for your money. Not the cheapest, but the best value. For my process, I've found employing two editors and a proofreader is the minimum I can do to achieve the results I want. Your argument provides no counter to that, nor any illumination. It's the rhetorical equivalent of saying, "nuh uh." Sure, just because someone charges a lot, doesn't make them qualified, just as if they charge little, doesn't mean they aren't qualified. But that rather obvious point doesn't actually clarify anything in the debate, which from my standpoint, amounts to, hire the best help you can for the least they will accept to do the work, or do most or all yourself and hope you are a master at myriad skills. You can certainly drag that off onto tangents, but you'll lose me as a passenger on your journey, again, because I'm not out to prove a point, I'm offering what has worked well for me in selling, well, a decent number of books in my first 30 months of SP. You may believe that you know better, in which case, I'd say, fine, I hope you're seeing results anything like what I'm seeing, that are the universe telling you how your approach works in the real world. If so, great. If not, you might want to reconsider your position.

Now back to writing for me. Good luck with your writing. No hard feelings.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> I was specifically thinking those .99 to 1.99 books that is some people bought with a prepaid credit card, the return fee would eat up anything they spent. Several of those cards have a 1 dollar to 2 dollar fee every time the card is used.
> 
> And yes I have returned one FREE book well if you could call it that. 6 words per page + a link for 10 pages does not = a book. No it did not have estimated page numbers either.
> Paraphrasing the title The BIG BIG Book of nothing.


I see the point you're making.

But the friend I had who has experienced returns of her free book is someone who made 6K short story free, so that it could be used to promote her new releases. The story's a pretty good read, but she gives away maybe 500 copies a month and gets about... 5-10 returns a year? So, not statistically significant in terms of the number of returns to sales... but it always makes her laugh (and she'll send me a message about it, sometimes) when someone returns a FREE book.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> I didn't call anyone a bum.


False.

[quote author=blakebooks on Today at 11:48:31 AM]And sure, it's possible to hire a *bum editor* who misses a lot of stuff.[/quote]

And accuse me of ad-hominem attacks all you want... what I wrote was in response to things you posted.

And my responses allow for others to make their own choices, even you.

It's an interesting approach, wanting to play both the bully and the victim of bullies when it comes to your opinion and the opinions of those who disagree with you or advocate that other approaches are possible. Good luck with that.


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## Brian Olsen (Jan 13, 2013)

For my first (and thus far only) book, I spent $300 for custom cover art and did the design/layout myself. I didn't pay for any editors, I sent it to three smart, experienced beta readers, all of whom write for a living and one of whom has also worked as a proofreader. I also read, and re-read, and re-read it myself in as many different formats as I could.  I think the end result is satisfactory; I'm sure there are typos that escaped us, but I haven't had any complaints yet.

Nevertheless, I hope to be able to hire a copy editor, if not for my next book then maybe for the one after. It's purely a matter of finances right now, I simply can't afford to pay for an editor. I know my work will be the better for it. As soon as I'm in a position to hire someone, I will.

Otherwise, I've spent next to nothing on marketing - I paid for a Book Discovery blog post here, and the shipping costs of two books on a Goodreads giveaway. I learned here that there's not much point in spending a lot on marketing if you've only got one book out, so I'm waiting until book two in the series is out, maybe even book three.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Craig: That's a brittish term. Like having a bum knee. There's a difference between using an expression and calling someone a bum. As in, "Cheap editors are scumbags and BUMS" vs. "I'm bummed about not selling squat" or "that was a bum deal." I obviously intended it in the latter sense.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2013)

Kelsye said:


> What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*
> 
> I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


Perhaps it would have been wise to ask this question BEFORE publishing an article that implies some sort of knowledge of the industry and risk spreading inaccurate information to new writers?

I realize it is a new site and you want to drive traffic to it, but you do a disservice to your readers by putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Research FIRST. Publish SECOND.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: That's a brittish term. Like having a bum knee. There's a difference between using an expression and calling someone a bum. As in, "Cheap editors are scumbags and BUMS" vs. "I'm bummed about not selling squat" or "that was a bum deal." I obviously intended it in the latter sense.


Mr. Blake is quite correct here, I read it as he explained.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I see the point you're making.
> 
> But the friend I had who has experienced returns of her free book is someone who made 6K short story free, so that it could be used to promote her new releases. The story's a pretty good read, but she gives away maybe 500 copies a month and gets about... 5-10 returns a year? So, not statistically significant in terms of the number of returns to sales... but it always makes her laugh (and she'll send me a message about it, sometimes) when someone returns a FREE book.


I had a thought on that one but it didn't pan out. Oh and I will gladly read your friend's book and not return it.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Perhaps it would have been wise to ask this question BEFORE publishing an article that implies some sort of knowledge of the industry and risk spreading inaccurate information to new writers?
> 
> I realize it is a new site and you want to drive traffic to it, but you do a disservice to your readers by putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Research FIRST. Publish SECOND.


This. Thank you, Julie. Much fire would not have broken out in the Cafe if OP had taken that sound advice.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Must ask:
> How can one tell an SP from a TP at a glance?
> 
> And Blakebooks if you can tell me that I will gladly look at 10 SP books and give you a ratio. Though of the last 2 SP's that I have read or attempted to read, it is at 50%.
> ...


Keep in mind, there are SP books by folks who frequent here, and then there's "the wide world of SP" which includes people who license some naughty pictures on a photo site, plop them in a book, and hit "publish." Or do the moral equivalent with words.... I've seen "SP" books that are nothing more than copying and pasting articles verbatim out of Wikipedia, and trying to profit off it.

Blake's statement indeed holds up, if you survey "the wide world of SP books."

I think a fairer survey of actual quality would be to sample 10 self-pubbed books at random from folks who are KB regulars. Because those of us who come here are, by a much higher percentage, folks who are actually making an effort, not just trying to "get rich quick" route.

If Mr. Blake believes that 9 out of 10 books by KBWC writers are all worthless, that's his opinion; but I'd wager most folks would disagree with him.

I'm not certain which way he means it, though, and in fairness, there are a lot of "get rich quick" types polluting Amazon's system with copy-and-paste jobs, "dirty picture" books, and outright plagiarism.

Include all that crud in the mix of your survey, and depending which 10 you select, you could easily come up with 10 out of 10 book fails.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: That's a brittish term. Like having a bum knee. There's a difference between using an expression and calling someone a bum. As in, "Cheap editors are scumbags and BUMS" vs. "I'm bummed about not selling squat" or "that was a bum deal." I obviously intended it in the latter sense.


I totally accept how you may have intended it. (Your profile says Mexico, BTW, not Great Britain.) I'd suggest your intent is not quite so obvious, however. Thanks for clarifying.

Oh, and you might want to capitalize "British" and use just the one "t." Spell-check is a part of this forum for a reason... we all need it at times!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Keep in mind, there are SP books by folks who frequent here, and then there's "the wide world of SP" which includes people who license some naughty pictures on a photo site, plop them in a book, and hit "publish." Or do the moral equivalent with worlds.... I've seen "SP" books that are nothing more than copying and pasting articles verbatim out of Wikipedia, and trying to profit off it.
> 
> Blake's statement indeed holds up, if you survey "the wide world of SP books."
> 
> ...


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Well now if we want to talk about just KBWC's, I will say that out of the last 10 of them I have read 90% have been very good reads.   The other one was so bad it was awful.   I only counted it because I did find him here at KBWC but I would not call him a regular KBWC so at the moment that leaves me at 100% good reads from the regular writers here.
Come to think of it, not counting the biggies I am slogging through and Erma, nearly all my reading comes straight from KBWC.
The biggies are Atlas Shrugged. (Blaming mom for this one) and Trilby by George Du Maurier.  (At times it might help if I actually read French.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Well now if we want to talk about just KBWC's, I will say that out of the last 10 of them I have read 90% have been very good reads. The other one was so bad it was awful. I only counted it because I did find him here at KBWC but I would not call him a regular KBWC so at the moment that leaves me at 100% good reads from the regular writers here.
> Come to think of it, not counting the biggies I am slogging through and Erma, nearly all my reading comes straight from KBWC.
> The biggies are Atlas Shrugged. (Blaming mom for this one) and Trilby by George Du Maurier. (At times it might help if I actually read French.)


My results have been similar.

When I first started hanging out here, I began reading indie authors exclusively for a while. And part of why I decided to "go indie" myself as a writer is that the books by the folks I found here were all decent reads.

In fact, I've discovered several "new indie favorites" by simply checking out the work of folks who frequent these environs.

I'm a sucker for anything by folks like: Victorine E. Lieske, David McAfee, L.J. Sellers, T.L. Haddix, and Daniel Pyle. Not all of them still come here regularly, but I found all five through here, initially. And that's just a random Top 5. There are others. Lots of 'em.

Lately I've found I've missed staying up on old trad-pubbed favorites like Stephen King, James Patterson, Jeff Lindsay, Charlaine Harris, and others, so I've incorporated those folks back into my reading rotation, but I still read plenty of indies. And the indies I read, by and large, come from my exposure to them here.

Heck, we had a minor dust-up just today in this thread, but Mr. Blake is certainly someone whose work I've checked out because he's a regular here, and I respect his work even if he's not a favorite yet, even though we did clash on opinions a bit today.

That stuff's minor, to me; and somewhat to be expected when passionate creative types are around each other long enough.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> My results have been similar.
> 
> When I first started hanging out here, I began reading indie authors exclusively for a while. And part of why I decided to "go indie" myself as a writer is that the books by the folks I found here were all decent reads.
> 
> ...


Mr. Blake is on my short list of books to read. He is number 8 in the queue. Which probably means Monday or Tuesday of next week. All depends on how much time I spend reading. Oh and I have a long list too but it is in no particular order. I will read almost everything. I do not read much if any Christian (fiction or non) and will only read historical fiction if the author has clearly labeled it as such. Though I am more into action and mysteries. Oh and cooking and craft books. Some humor but small doses please.


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## timskorn (Nov 7, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Perhaps it would have been wise to ask this question BEFORE publishing an article that implies some sort of knowledge of the industry and risk spreading inaccurate information to new writers?
> 
> I realize it is a new site and you want to drive traffic to it, but you do a disservice to your readers by putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Research FIRST. Publish SECOND.


Not to throw a bone into the fight, but her numbers seem accurate enough depending on who and how you decide to use services. Of course, the post seems odd by putting the answers before the questions.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Craig: I was doing three things at once, one if which was dealing with a lab who believes my sole reason for existing is to throw his ball, the other of which was a phone call. But that gaffe underscores why I need an editor. Or two, as the case may be.

Cinisa: I don't differentiate between KBers and non. I haven't had time to read over the last few months, which is really when I started haunting this place. The 15 hour writing days sort of take it out of you. So when I say 9 out of 10 indie books I've read were lousy, I'm referring to just my random sampling, most of which was in my genre. 

Let's face it. There's no barrier to slapping something up on Amazon. So it's become one giant slush pile of every MS written in the last 20 years and shelved, usually for good reason. At least that's how it appears to me. Within that universe, though, there are gems. I'm quite sure the KB community is the creme of that creme, or I wouldn't hang out here. So if you took a sampling of just KBers, it would likely be a much higher ratio of acceptable to un.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: That's a brittish term. Like having a bum knee. There's a difference between using an expression and calling someone a bum. As in, "Cheap editors are scumbags and BUMS" vs. "I'm bummed about not selling squat" or "that was a bum deal." I obviously intended it in the latter sense.


It's an American term, too. Bum knee, bum deal. A lemon or otherwise badly or poorly performing, unsatisfactory.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: I was doing three things at once, one if which was dealing with a lab who believes my sole reason for existing is to throw his ball, the other of which was a phone call. But that gaffe underscores why I need an editor. Or two, as the case may be.
> 
> Cinisa: I don't differentiate between KBers and non. I haven't had time to read over the last few months, which is really when I started haunting this place. The 15 hour writing days sort of take it out of you. So when I say 9 out of 10 indie books I've read were lousy, I'm referring to just my random sampling, most of which was in my genre.
> 
> Let's face it. There's no barrier to slapping something up on Amazon. So it's become one giant slush pile of every MS written in the last 20 years and shelved, usually for good reason. At least that's how it appears to me. Within that universe, though, there are gems. I'm quite sure the KB community is the creme of that creme, or I wouldn't hang out here. So if you took a sampling of just KBers, it would likely be a much higher ratio of acceptable to un.


My chihuahua would say your lab is right. We are here for their pleasure.
Now you have me curious... what is your genre and cin is fine. My name actually reads cin is a joy. Cin is short for Cindy.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Perhaps it would have been wise to ask this question BEFORE publishing an article that implies some sort of knowledge of the industry and risk spreading inaccurate information to new writers?
> 
> I realize it is a new site and you want to drive traffic to it, but you do a disservice to your readers by putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Research FIRST. Publish SECOND.


It's actually a republish of an article from May. I could swear we discussed it back then as well, but no changes. Maybe posting here wasn't about getting input, but views.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> For editing and proofreading, cover and formatting, I budget a grand.
> 
> Audiobook will cost you about $2500 unless you use the royalty share option, which you'll deeply regret if it sells well. The dumbest $2500 you'll have ever saved.
> 
> ...


A pretty reasonable budget. For a few I spend more because I splurge occasionally on cover art, but right in that range for most of my novels. I would say, referring to the article, that very few indie authors who are experienced pay for a developmental editor. I certainly don't.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Cin: I write action thrillers. So I'm usually in action/adventure or thrillers on Amazon. And Cindy? Nice to meet you, too.

JR: Like minds think alike. The numbers work well for me, so I'll keep on keeping on until they don't.

Christa: Yup. Pretty widely understood, I thought.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Cin: I write action thrillers. So I'm usually in action/adventure or thrillers on Amazon. And Cindy? Nice to meet you, too.
> 
> JR: Like minds think alike. The numbers work well for me, so I'll keep on keeping on until they don't.
> 
> Christa: Yup. Pretty widely understood, I thought.


I have your Fatal Exchange, King of Swords and Silver Justice. Which one should I read first?


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

This article makes a lot of outdated assumptions about a book as an object that comes into creation at a magical moment called "publishing" and can't be changed. One of the strengths of indie publishing is you can change things. 

Yes, there are some things like editing that you have to do before hand--if an editor is telling you to change major points, it's hard to go back and make changes that are that significant. Most everything else you can do on a bargain level and fix if your book does well. You can get someone to make sure your grammar and spelling are correct and then go back and worry about the en dashes and other CMS minutiae if you're selling enough to make it seem worthwhile. There are great premade covers available. You can do a bang up formatting job with just Scrivener or Word/Calibre.

What concerns me about a lot of these "costs" articles is they scare people off from dipping their feet in the water or on the other side they encourage people to spend more than their book is likely to take in--particularly if its their first book. You can get an ebook out there for a very reasonable price, nearly free, and if it does well, you can relaunch a second edition when you put out a print copy and so on and keep the sales in mind for budgeting on the next book.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Cin: Depends on what you're in the mood for. Fatal is a Tom Harris-y kind of romp, part police procedural, part international intrigue. Silver is police procedural/Wall Street intrigue. King is kind of Day of the Jackal, set in Mexico. All decent reads. I'd probably say begin with Fatal, go to King next, finish with Silver.


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## Kelsye (Aug 6, 2013)

Monique said:


> It's actually a republish of an article from May. I could swear we discussed it back then as well, but no changes. Maybe posting here wasn't about getting input, but views.


Yes! If there was a discussion here in May, I missed it. There are SO MANY answers to the how much does it cost to self-publish question, that I'm hopping to come up with three solid scenarios. There are people spending in the high range. Which, if they have that kind of money, that's fine. For the rest of us mortal folks, we have to find a way to get the best possible assistance and highest quality work at the lowest price possible.

When writers consider self-publishing, many have no idea all of the costs and steps that can be involved. Writers can get quotes and prices and have no way of checking if the prices are fair.

Want to see something that makes my blood boil? Go look at what companies like Author House are charging authors. $1299 for a "web optimized" press release with distribution? Considering that you can buy WIDE distribution from PR wire for under $300, and can hire an experiences publicist to write a very good release for under $200, this strikes me as taking advantage of authors who don't know any better. Not to mention the fact that a press release really isn't going to do much for them. Yet, you know that there are authors out there buying these services at these ridiculous prices.

*The more transparency we have on realistic prices, the harder it is for corporations to take advantage of writers.*

I fully support the folks that can publish quality books for almost nothing. But that is almost as impossible for many of us as is the big spender route.

There are real budgets out there. I'm hoping to get some middle of the road examples. How much are people REALLY paying for services? Assuming the goal is a highly professional book that competes well with those backed by publishing houses, what are authors actually investing?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Kelsye said:


> Yes! If there was a discussion here in May, I missed it. There are SO MANY answers to the how much does it cost to self-publish question, that I'm hopping to come up with three solid scenarios. There are people spending in the high range. Which, if they have that kind of money, that's fine. For the rest of us mortal folks, we have to find a way to get the best possible assistance and highest quality work at the lowest price possible.
> 
> When writers consider self-publishing, many have no idea all of the costs and steps that can be involved. Writers can get quotes and prices and have no way of checking if the prices are fair.
> 
> ...


If you will look back over this entire thread, several authors have graciously taken the time to break down their expenses for you. 
I am assuming that you want to publish your first book. Read this thread carefully, there is some wonderful advice on what to do and what not to do.

One author here has $65 invested per book, another 2 grand. I have learned quite a bit from this thread.


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## hyh (Jul 21, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Craig: That's a brittish term. Like having a bum knee. There's a difference between using an expression and calling someone a bum. As in, "Cheap editors are scumbags and BUMS" vs. "I'm bummed about not selling squat" or "that was a bum deal." I obviously intended it in the latter sense.


Yes, I read it as he explained too! The other interpretation never occurred to me!  Maybe it's because I'm used to British English...


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

I'm confused about this thread and the question.  Do not see the point.  The answer is - Whatever the author wants to spend or thinks is the correct amount to spend. Is this not common sense?
At the end of the day - you can format yourself, by studying it. Edit yourself by asking family and friends and get a free book cover from Createspace. Amanda Hocking did it for free as I have read on her interviews many atimes and I am sure she is not alone. Whereas others have paid such high amounts.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

Just another thing to throw into the mix. 

I paid well for a good, experienced content editor, which in turn has made me a better writer. 

If I look at my first draft compared to the finished article, it's like chalk and cheese. Harry Dewulf didn't rewrite the novel for me, but guided me in all of the right directions. He was worth every penny and more.


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## MrB (Aug 8, 2013)

There's a reason Howard Johnson developed 28 flavors... I think the answer to this question is, ultimately, "How much do you want it to be?" As has been pointed out, there's a wide range. A lot also depends on your *objective in publishing*--the answer is different if you want to create a profitable writing/publishing business versus get your book "out there." In addition to objective, the other factors are:

Your own *skill level and ambition*. Do you want to learn to format? Are you willing to learn the disciplines required?

Your analysis of *return on investment*. Whether you're considering learning a discipline or paying somebody to write your press releases, you'll want to think about the payback. Payback doesn't have to be about money--it can be about joy and satisfaction. I happen to love to learn, therefore my self-publishing efforts tend to be true "do-it-yourself" projects.

Not counting my time and overhead (paper, postage, etc. etc.) I spent well under $100.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MrB said:


> There's a reason Howard Johnson developed 28 flavors...


Umm, you're kidding, right?

Burt Baskin and Irv Robbins were the founders of Baskin-Robbins, not Howard Johnson.

And it's 31 flavors, not 28...

I mean, sure, HoJo's restaurants came first in 1925 with 28 flavors... you're technically correct... but it's not what HoJo's is remembered for. It's their hotels.

Baskin-Robbins came later in 1945, but their "31 flavors" is absolutely what they are remembered for.


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## Jacob Crow (Jun 25, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Umm, you're kidding, right?
> 
> Burt Baskin and Irv Robbins were the founders of Baskin-Robbins, not Howard Johnson.
> 
> ...


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I realize it is a new site and you want to drive traffic to it, but you do a disservice to your readers by putting the proverbial cart before the horse. *Research FIRST. Publish SECOND.*


Yes!

You don't want to know how many people I had to kill before I published the Amsterdam Assassin Series.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I have your Fatal Exchange, King of Swords and Silver Justice. Which one should I read first?


I enjoyed Blake's whole Assassin series very much. I like the Jet series less, but that's perhaps personal preference. The others are in my TBR, but I'm currently too busy writing to read as voraciously as I did before I started publishing the Amsterdam Assassin Series.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2013)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> Yes!
> 
> You don't want to know how many people I had to kill before I published the Amsterdam Assassin Series.


Your dedication to the craft is appreciated. (Hope you did A good job hiding the bodies...)


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

I spent $35 to register copyright, and about $12 in postage submitting my novella to a magazine which publishes novellas. I have _almost_ recouped my costs. My husband and I made the cover in photoshop.

I know of a guy who wanted to publish his first novel in print only, and in addition to the cost of an initial print run he wanted to hire a publicist for $5,000 or $10,000. All together he was looking at upwards of $30,000 in expenses. I think he didn't make the jump.

I'm a lot more comfortable being out $45 or so than risking tens of thousands of dollars, but for my next self-publishing venture (still probably a year away, but maybe less) I plan to shell out for a line/copy editor (at about $25/hour) and possibly some professional cover art.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Amanda Brice said:


> I happen to agree with you, Craig. Yes, your wrote the words that the actor is performing, but audiobook listeners choose this medium rather than print for a reason -- the performance. If an audiobook is successful, it's every bit as much because of the narrator (and possibly moreso) than the author.


Not necessarily. I have a friend who works as a private English teacher and spends half his day driving from one class to the next. He couldn't care less about the performance, he just wants to listen to books in the car and chooses his audio books based on the story he wants to hear, not who reads it.

IMO the 50% royalty split is just for people who can't afford the hourly fee up front. No one gives their cover designer a cut of their profits so I don't see why an audiobook narrator should be treated any different. It's a nice gesture, but its certainly not an obligation.


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## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

Kelsye said:


> *The more transparency we have on realistic prices, the harder it is for corporations to take advantage of writers.*
> 
> I fully support the folks that can publish quality books for almost nothing. But that is almost as impossible for many of us as is the big spender route.
> 
> There are real budgets out there. I'm hoping to get some middle of the road examples. How much are people REALLY paying for services? Assuming the goal is a highly professional book that competes well with those backed by publishing houses, what are authors actually investing?


Uhm, people have already given you real examples of their budgets. The budgets REALLY do range from $0 to thousands. Do you plan to write another article with the real budgets that people have given you? Because the article on your website is useless for anyone who knows anything (even just a little) about self-publishing. And for those people who are brand new, it's misleading. When I published my short story "The Shelter" I spent ZERO dollars and it has earned me hundreds of dollars. The story is free now, but when it was a "paid" story it was my bestseller, making it into the top 100 once (for like five minutes) 

The reality is that people don't need to pay for services in the beginning if they don't want to. Barter is a big deal in this community and I've met some talented people using the barter system. My recommendation for anyone just starting out, consider bartering before paying out of pocket, especially if you're publishing short stories.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> Uhm, people have already given you real examples of their budgets. The budgets REALLY do range from $0 to thousands. Do you plan to write another article with the real budgets that people have given you? Because the article on your website is useless for anyone who knows anything (even just a little) about self-publishing. And for those people who are brand new, it's misleading. When I published my short story "The Shelter" I spent ZERO dollars and it has earned me hundreds of dollars. The story is free now, but when it was a "paid" story it was my bestseller, making it into the top 100 once (for like five minutes)
> 
> The reality is that people don't need to pay for services in the beginning if they don't want to. Barter is a big deal in this community and I've met some talented people using the barter system. My recommendation for anyone just starting out, consider bartering before paying out of pocket, especially if you're publishing short stories.


It's very true about barter. I'm currently editing a novel for a guy who edits professionally. I paid him to edit my first two books but he thought I was good enough to do an edit trade for the third. I told him I'm not so sure but I guess he'll find out for himself pretty soon. Quite often all it needs is a different set of eyes. That's what I'm hoping...


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

ChrisWard said:


> Not necessarily. I have a friend who works as a private English teacher and spends half his day driving from one class to the next. He couldn't care less about the performance, he just wants to listen to books in the car and chooses his audio books based on the story he wants to hear, not who reads it.


I get what you're saying, but... I'm pretty sure your friend would be upset if his audiobook were read like it was a kindergartner trying to sound out the words  That's not saying he's expecting an Oscar-winning performance, but I'd feel confident in assuming that he expects a baseline of quality.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> The reality is that people don't need to pay for services in the beginning if they don't want to. Barter is a big deal in this community and I've met some talented people using the barter system. My recommendation for anyone just starting out, consider bartering before paying out of pocket, especially if you're publishing short stories.


I agree. Bartering is one way to fund SP. That reminds me of the Barter Kings...

http://www.aetv.com/barter-kings/about/


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Arkali said:


> I get what you're saying, but... I'm pretty sure your friend would be upset if his audiobook were read like it was a kindergartner trying to sound out the words  That's not saying he's expecting an Oscar-winning performance, but I'd feel confident in assuming that he expects a baseline of quality.


This. To me, the performance really is an integral part of the experience of an audiobook. If I can't enjoy the performance, then I won't be able to enjoy the words the author wrote.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

Amanda Brice said:


> This. To me, the performance really is an integral part of the experience of an audiobook. If I can't enjoy the performance, then I won't be able to enjoy the words the author wrote.


Financially, I could go either way (although I'd prefer to pay flat rate and hold all rights on the production and royalties). But I cannot find any readers I like enough to record.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Honestly, I would be very surprised if most voice actors wouldn't prefer to be paid up front for their work. Paid up front = guaranteed cash. Paid on royalty = gamble.  I bet if they were given the option, 9 times out of 10 they'd pick the cash.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Honestly, I would be very surprised if most voice actors wouldn't prefer to be paid up front for their work. Paid up front = guaranteed cash. Paid on royalty = gamble. I bet if they were given the option, 9 times out of 10 they'd pick the cash.


Pretty sure that I've seen at least one voice over artist on here state that up front payment is fairest to the artist too. They said that royalty share meant that the artist may never get fairly compensated for their work.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Honestly, I would be very surprised if most voice actors wouldn't prefer to be paid up front for their work. Paid up front = guaranteed cash. Paid on royalty = gamble. I bet if they were given the option, 9 times out of 10 they'd pick the cash.


Absolutely, but then there's the stipend program, which I feel is the best of both worlds. The voice actor gets paid $100/hr upfront by Audible (not by the author), but also gets royalty share.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ChrisWard said:


> Not necessarily. I have a friend who works as a private English teacher and spends half his day driving from one class to the next. He couldn't care less about the performance, he just wants to listen to books in the car and chooses his audio books based on the story he wants to hear, not who reads it.


There are folks who care less about performance than others, it's true. But you'd be surprised how many do.

In fact, although I'm a Stephen King devotee, I once bought an audiobook (via Audible) of THE BLACK HOUSE by King and Straub, performed by someone who was supposedly one of the best-at-the-time VO artists, but his style just wasn't compatible with my ears.

This guy read super-slow, you could HEAR every breath he tooth (oops, there he is breathing in through his nose, out through his mouth), he'd smack his lips, sniff in between some words like he was fighting a cold or a bad case of allergy-phlegm or something...

I don't know what other people saw in the guy, but I got about an hour in and just had to stop. King and Straub apparently donated most of the audiobook proceeds to the guy because he was having health problems around the time I bought the book. He passed, I think.

While that's a negative example, it illustrates how a bad performance can ruin an otherwise perfectly-good book.



ChrisWard said:


> IMO the 50% royalty split is just for people who can't afford the hourly fee up front. No one gives their cover designer a cut of their profits so I don't see why an audiobook narrator should be treated any different. It's a nice gesture, but its certainly not an obligation.


True, but Chris, a cover designed it's an equal creative contributor to the total creative work. Their work adds real value and eye-appeal, true... but the parallel to a VO artist to an audiobook (equal creative partner) is a comic book/graphic novel artist to a comic book script-writer's work.

An eBook can exist and still be 97 percent the same product with a bad cover, or even no cover.

But without both a novel AND a VO actor, you don't have an audiobook.

Similarly, without a comic book writer AND a comic book artist, you don't have a comic book.

That's my rationale. You're free to view it as you wish, however. Actors more desperate for rent money will take cash up front over a royalty split, it's true; I think smart VO artists, however, will take as much of a gamble on a writer's future success, as the writer is on a VO artist's future success.

If one or both of you take off, you're then both the better-off for it.

Because of my principle belief in the nature of audiobooks being collaborative works, I personally will likely offer royalty split, even if I become the next Stephen King. It's just part of how I think about the nature of the work, combined with my personal value system.

But others will be more mercenary about it, and that's their right, so only as there are VO artists willing to take $2,000 now, versus half of possibly a whole lot more over the next seven years. (And VO artists are obviously free to choose to work that way, too. They know best what's more important to them.)


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

ChrisWard said:


> It's very true about barter. I'm currently editing a novel for a guy who edits professionally. I paid him to edit my first two books but he thought I was good enough to do an edit trade for the third. I told him I'm not so sure but I guess he'll find out for himself pretty soon. Quite often all it needs is a different set of eyes. That's what I'm hoping...


Bartering and offering services-in-trade with other pros is part of the really-low-cost, DIY approach I outlined.

My point there was not "short-change the reader," but that "money doesn't always have to be the only solution to achieve a professional result."


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Bartering and offering services-in-trade with other pros is part of the really-low-cost, DIY approach I outlined.


Have you ever been paid in furniture? I have. If only it were a book deal LOL.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Craig - here you go - all the posts by a pro-voice over artist who posts on Kindleboards: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?action=profile;u=46070;sa=showPosts;start=50

Note his repeated comments about how royalty share isn't a good deal for voice over artists.

See also - http://blog.karencommins.com/2012/01/to_voice_royalty-share_audiobo.html (opening few paragraphs talking about how unpopular the idea of royalty share is with voice artists)

and http://www.voiceoverxtra.com/article.htm?id=iuz8p9ii

You've got a royalty share deal. I assume that both you and your voice over artist are happy with it. That's great. However, I think it's a bit out of line to keep calling people who pay up front 'mercenary' - when most voice over artists would far prefer that option!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Because of my principle belief in the nature of audiobooks being collaborative works, I personally will likely offer royalty split, even if I become the next Stephen King. It's just part of how I think about the nature of the work, combined with my personal value system.
> 
> But others will be more mercenary about it, and that's their right, so only as there are VO artists willing to take $2,000 now, versus half of possibly a whole lot more over the next seven years. (And VO artists are obviously free to choose to work that way, too. They know best what's more important to them.)


And here I thought you were gonna be the next Erma Bombeck (except writing about writing) or maybe Dave Barry.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Zelah: Royalty share deals aren't very popular with established, seasoned pro VA artists. They aren't in the business to gamble with their limited time. They prefer making hard cash for the skill they're offering, which I support wholeheartedly. Usually, royalty shares are terrible deals for the VA artist, because the authors who will do them go in with the thought, "hey, it costs me nothing, so I've got nothing to lose." Those that think that way are usually selling a few books a day, if that, so their generosity in allowing the VA artist the "benefit" of doing a royalty share equates to not paying them for the work, because a book that's selling squat as an ebook won't sell any more as an audiobook. Unless there's a stipend associated with it, it's a crummy deal for the VA artist. And they mostly know that, unless they're newbies or totally desperate.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Zelah: Royalty share deals aren't very popular with established, seasoned pro VA artists. They aren't in the business to gamble with their limited time. They prefer making hard cash for the skill they're offering, which I support wholeheartedly. Usually, royalty shares are terrible deals for the VA artist, because the authors who will do them go in with the thought, "hey, it costs me nothing, so I've got nothing to lose." Those that think that way are usually selling a few books a day, if that, so their generosity in allowing the VA artist the "benefit" of doing a royalty share equates to not paying them for the work, because a book that's selling squat as an ebook won't sell any more as an audiobook. Unless there's a stipend associated with it, it's a crummy deal for the VA artist. And they mostly know that, unless they're newbies or totally desperate.


Hi! I started Jet last night. It does not need to be an audiobook, it should be made into a movie.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Cin: Glad you're enjoying it. We agree it would be a good film. It's not a bad audiobook, either. That was the first. I just approved JET II's performance, and I have someone narrating King of Swords as we speak, with the goal to have at least seven or eight audio books available by Xmas.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Cin: Glad you're enjoying it. We agree it would be a good film. It's not a bad audiobook, either. That was the first. I just approved JET II's performance, and I have someone narrating King of Swords as we speak, with the goal to have at least seven or eight audio books available by Xmas.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Hey, I'm a professional, union card carrying actor here in Canada in my other life outside writing and I can tell you that I wouldn't even be allowed by my union to take a deal where I was paid with a promise of money to maybe come in the future via profit sharing! There are specific rules as to the minimum of what professional unionized actors can be paid for a specific job - and those rules cannot be waived without applying for special permission (which is difficult to get).

Perhaps the situation is different in the US - or none of the voice actors belong to the Actors Union - but fair payment for services rendered is what this particular actor expects.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Zelah Meyer said:


> You've got a royalty share deal. I assume that both you and your voice over artist are happy with it.


Not only are both of them happy, but I feel I've made lifelong professional friends of them both. I promote Chrissy in general, and all of her work not just the audiobook we collaborated on. We stay in touch a bit.

As for Jen, she's still finishing off the final eight chapters of her project, but I intend to be as encouraging of her career, and a promoter of her professionalism, as I am of Chrissy's.

I mean, what did you expect me to say? "No, I tortured them for hours until they agreed to do it on my terms." or something like that? C'mon.

People can go out and find anyone to say anything, positive or negative, about anything. Doesn't mean a thing, no matter whether it's you doing it or me.

At ACX, I filter out those who won't consider royalty share so that I don't waste anyone's time who is unwilling to work that way.

And both have told me they felt, generally, highly complimented, because I went through dozens of VO profiles to find "the right voice" or each project, and approached them myself. On SHADA I got my first choice. On MOST LIKELY, my first choice cancelled because she accepted a full-time position with an entertainment firm, as performing talent, and she no longer had spare time to do audiobooks; so I approached a second artist and Jen committed right away.

And by the way, I've been very up front with both of them, each time, about my current level of success. No one went in blind.

Now that you've interrogated me, shall I interrogate someone famous enough to generate way more than the base fee these artists charge when paid via flat fee, and see if all of them were happy about not getting a cut of someone's ongoing success?  

I would hope not...


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I don't really understand this argument. What works for one won't work for another.

Some people will work for spec and others want cash flat fee on the barrelhead and some will take a blend of the two. This is not uncommon in movies and music. Negotiate a deal that works best for you.

Some may take a reduced fee on the front end for a piece of the back end. Not uncommon.

If I had Blake's sales numbers I wouldn't be giving away points for a VO without a big name. Though I would if Matt Damon or Morgan Freeman was in my book trailer. Or if they did the VO work.

Peter Coyote and David McCullough do excellent VO work and I'd expect to pay them a premium price.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I bet Morgan Freeman is just dying to get a piece of my action.


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## Zenferno (May 29, 2013)

I don't know how much it 'should' cost but I'm glad the current cost is free+.  I spend a whopping $3 for a stock image, add my own awful text font and BOOM! I'm good to go.  I can only drool over all those lovely covers on offer.  My plan is to get a pro cover for all my books in a few months, including the ones already published.  As far as developmental editing and all that jazz, I don't see that happening for another year or so.  I do plan on getting a website and newsletter up by Christmas though because I can do all that myself.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Your dedication to the craft is appreciated. (*Hope you did A good job hiding the bodies*...)


That's where most of my research went. How to get rid of bodies, how to commit the perfect murder, how to get someone drunk against their will, how to turn a stabbing into a 'fatal mugging', etcetera.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

swolf said:


> I bet Morgan Freeman is just dying to get a piece of my action.


He might be busy.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Relevant to the discussion:

http://www.helpwithpublishing.com/the-cost-of-self-publishing/


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

If you do it right, $0. I've done 22 for $0 (both eBook and paper). But I'm lucky - I do my own covers and my editor works for sandwiches. We'll I guess I'd have to add up that up (okay $$100 sandwiches). And No, she's not my husband.

Edward C. Patterson


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

jackz4000 said:


> I don't really understand this argument. What works for one won't work for another.
> 
> If I had Blake's sales numbers I wouldn't be giving away points for a VO without a big name. Though I would if Matt Damon or Morgan Freeman was in my book trailer. Or if they did the VO work.
> 
> Peter Coyote and David McCullough do excellent VO work and I'd expect to pay them a premium price.


If you can get any of these 4 to do a VO for you, then you are golden. Make that 3, I am not real fond of Matt Damon. And if it is Morgan or David, they could read the telephone book and it would sell.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> I don't really understand this argument. What works for one won't work for another.


I don't, either.

But it seems a couple people can't live with the fact that I do something different than they do, have good reasons for it, and feel it's a legit approach, without also feeling like I'm morally in the wrong and without me staying awake at night typing, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."

Because that's what anyone who doesn't adopt their approach SHOULD be doing, dontcha know. There's only one acceptable mindset/approach. It's "a bit out of line" to even suggest that the method they reject would be acceptable to ANYONE.

Which is fine; I can tune people out, too.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> And if it is Morgan or David, they could read the telephone book and it would sell.


HaHa! You are 1000% right. They are both great.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Narrators of that fame level are not often found hanging around ACX.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

What's going on out there in the blogosphere? Are bloggers just getting topic ideas from one another? Here's another cost-analysis article:

This link from Passive Guy...

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/08/2013/the-cost-of-self-publishing/

...came from this link here:

http://www.helpwithpublishing.com/the-cost-of-self-publishing/

It's refreshing to see everything in Pounds. The numbers seem so much... smaller, less scary...



A penny, er, pound, for your thoughts?

Interestingly the article writer calls it "structural edit" instead of "developmental edit."


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## Sandra K. Williams (Jun 15, 2013)

@JanThompson said: Interestingly the article writer calls it "structural edit" instead of "developmental edit."

That's because there are no universally-agreed-upon terms in the editing business. I could go on and on about it, but i hate typing on my iPad. Here's a presentation i did awhile back, if you really want to know more.
http://www.williamswriting.com/2009/editing-the-invisible-art-talk-and-handouts/


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Sandra K. Williams said:


> @JanThompson said: Interestingly the article writer calls it "structural edit" instead of "developmental edit."
> 
> That's because there are no universally-agreed-upon terms in the editing business. I could go on and on about it, but i hate typing on my iPad. Here's a presentation i did awhile back, if you really want to know more.
> http://www.williamswriting.com/2009/editing-the-invisible-art-talk-and-handouts/


Thank you, Sandra. That was VERY helpful. Appreciate the informative link.


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## AworkInProgress (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm still in the process of working to complete my first fantasy novel. And I've got a long way to go before publishing. When I start to consider what it may end up costing me to finalize things . By which I mean; editor, cover art and possibly formatting and a video trailer(maybe). It seems that I may end taking even longer as my current situation makes it hard for me to justify the spending at this time.  

My thinking on the matter from all the reading I've been doing in places such as here on these boards. Is that a debut book/author need to take extra care to leave any potential readers with a favorable impression. That being everything from the first glance at the cover to the last page in the book. So unless I suddenly come into some extra cash I'll have to hold off and perhaps start a new book with that extra time. But I'm willing to wait to make sure I put out something I can be proud of.   Glad to find all the advice and opinions on costs here, thanks.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Here are my costs...

cover $150
formatting free - I do it myself
editing - free, I use beta readers, and use autocrit to do a final read through, so $85


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

I have two approaches -- one with a small indie publisher and one all by myself.

*With Small Indie Publisher:*
Editing - Free from my publisher (but they take a chunk of the profits)
Cover - Free, I did my own
Formatting - Free from my publisher (but they take a chunk of the profits)
Marketing - $260

*All By Myself:*
Editing - Free; done by me, my wife, and a friend
Cover - Free, I did my own (and got help with one)
Formatting - Free, I did it myself

I did start my novel out with a copy editor, but when I went with the small publisher, I was able to have them take on the cost of editing.

A few years ago, I would have paid for more things (editing, cover), but times are hard and I have to go it alone now.

--
R.J. Spears


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## elaineorr (Mar 18, 2012)

For me, there are four answers to this question.

1) You can work with a critique group or a couple of other authors for comments on your book, then let it sit for awhile. When you make the changes you want and edit it yourself, you can trade copyediting with a friend who is an English teacher or other authors. Then you can use the _Smashwords Style Guide_ to learn how to format a book for electronic publishing. (I say Smashwords because it is presented somewhat humorously, but you can go to Kindle's guidance. Nook formatting differs only in that they want section breaks rather than page breaks. Guidance is there, too.)

If you use graphics software you can try a cover yourself, but you'll probably get what you pay for. You can get a cover for $5 from a designer on www.fiverr.com.

This do-it-all-yourself method can work, but unless you have friends with excellent proofreading skills, there will be typos. And the cover may look amateurish. You only have one chance to make a first impression with a reader.

2) You can probably spend about $200 and have a much better product. This assumes you do your own formatting and pay a copy editor and a cover designer each $100. You can get recommendations on both from friends, Craig's List advertisers in YOUR town, or by doing a Google search. Smashwords maintains a list of people who provide these services. While these are not recommendations, SW would remove someone if there were complaints. Visit http://www.smashwords.com/list. I once used a cover designer from this list and it worked well. I now use one who was recommended by a colleague and costs a bit more.

3) There are freelancers who do formatting, and many are quite good. You can find some on the Smashwords list mentioned above. I am a member of a couple of Yahoo Groups (including Murder Must Advertise) and many other authors mention formatters and cover designers who do good work. Remember, you don't turn a book over to a formatter until you are 100% done with all editing. Formatters work at a much higher skill level than even an author who does decent formatting themselves. You will likely still be loading your book to Smashwords, Kindle or Nook yourself, but there will be no issues. Unless you missed some typos.

4) Sign on with a publisher for self-published authors. Yes, that sounds like an oxymoron. These are not publishers in the sense of a publishing house, but a firm that does the editing and formatting and perhaps some marketing (maybe only on their own website, maybe more broadly). Generally your royalties would come through the publisher and would be substantially less than if you truly self-published. Fees can run from $1,000 to several thousand dollars. I am not knocking these firms, but be sure you know what you are agreeing to and that there are no hidden costs. If you are not especially computer savvy or feel threatened by the idea of formatting, such a firm can be ideal. Just read the contract carefully.

What do I do? I pay a good copyeditor and a cover designer and do my own formatting. It took me weeks to learn, and I loaded the first few books several times before I was satisfied enough to publish them on for Kindle (Amazon) or Smashwords (which markets your books to a number of sites that sell electronically).

The MOST IMPORTANT thing to know is that when you format you copy the book from your word processing program and put it in a program with no formatting, such as Notepad for Microsoft programs. Then you copy the unformatted copy (all italics, bold, etc., gone) and put it back into your word processing program. Then manually insert the formatting and never work on the book on a different computer. The _Smashwords Style Guide_ has a good explanation of this. It's a free download at http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/52.

I hope this is clearer than mud. Feel free to post a question.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Kelsye said:


> What is a reasonable budget for publishing a book? I outline three different budgets here: *http://www.writer.ly/community/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish-a-book/*
> 
> I'd like to know how these budgets hold up in the real world? Are these budgets in-line with your experience? Can you break down your actual expenses?


I think it varies so much, depending on the skills each person brings to the table (aside from writing.) I've been fortunate in that one of the most important skills outside of writing -- making a good cover -- is something I can do for myself. I paid about $15 for the stock image of the papyrus background I've used on all three (will be four soon) of my Egyptian historical novels and about $200 for a set of Egyptian vector illustrations which I use for the fancy borders around the pictures on my covers. The main artwork is public domain stuff. Certainly, creating a good cover that stands out and does its job well can run anywhere from about $30 for a premade up through a couple thousand for an intricate wrap-around paperback original illustration. But for me, $35.00 spread out over four titles.

I have paid $100 for print formatting for each of my books, too, because I just don't have the time at present to learn how to format well for print. It is something I'd like to learn in the future, but it will have to wait until I'm writing full-time, as right now my non-work time is taken up with writing! I have found it very simple to format ebooks, so that hasn't been something I've needed to outsource.

I have several partners -- other historical novelists -- I partner with to trade developmental edits and proofreading. It's a time-intensive thing, but dang, they give really great edits (and hopefully I do the same in return.) It is probably something I'll outsource once I am writing full-time, at least a few times to see whether it's worth the expense to me, or whether it's better for me to continue trading the work with my group. If I didn't have connections with such an outstanding group of authors in my own genre, I probably wouldn't attempt to swap editing services. It likely wouldn't be a good return on the time investment for me, but again, I've been lucky to end up with some really great, highly skilled people who are willing to trade the favors.

I paid for one Bookbub ad to promote my Egyptian series...that was $160 at the time.

All together, I've spent about $150 on each book.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

EelKat said:


> # 2) Short Story Collections (five 5,000 word stories bundled) and Novellas (40,000 to 50,000 words) (approx. 100 pages):


You're a bit off on your definition of a "novella."

The traditional breakdowns are as follows:

Up to 7,500 words = short story
7,501 - 17,500 words = novelette
17,501 - 40,000 words = novella
40,001 and up = novel (Ray Bradbury's NOVEL, Fahrenheit 451 = 46,118 words)

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_count#In_fiction)

And those are the breakdowns I learned in the 1980s when I was going by The Writer's Market and Writer's Digest.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> You're a bit off on your definition of a "novella."
> 
> The traditional breakdowns are as follows:
> 
> ...


I've always considered those figures and descriptions to be correct. Surprising how many people will ask what a *novelette* is, which only seems to be understood among short story writers.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

How much *should* it cost?

I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Clearly it can be done for nothing, depending on your skill sets (sometimes overrated by ones self...me included) and available software, together a few interested friends to beta read, not to mention if your financial circumstances don't allow other than a small budget.

I would say that the majority of self-published don't make a profit, and so keep their budget to a minimum, which self-perpetuates the chances of not making it big, although there are 25% of self-published books in Amazons top 100. However, that's some big pyramid that they on top of, still someone is doing something right. From a quality POV, what it *does* cost and what it *should* cost are like two sides of the coin.

Having said that, there are many readers out there who are forgiving of less than perfection and who are grateful for the low prices that indies charge for their work.

Long may we all prosper, whatever our budgets.


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## alicepattinson (Jan 27, 2013)

My employer is also asking on how much to publish a book,


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't pay for anything, except for my cover art. And I recently got a deal for 100 images for $99. My biggest challenge is proofreading. But I've found workarounds for that. There is a text to speech program called NaturalReader that helps A LOT.  

If you include all the software I use for writing, and cover design, (word, scrivener, photoshop) and my web hosting, etc. It would look like a lot more. But the individual projects don't cost a dime. 

My paranormal erotic romance sells. I put a novelette up on Amazon a few days ago, no promo, no permafree or select lead in, nothing but posing it on my Facebook fan page that has all of 8 fans. I've already had three sales. This in contrast to a scifi novella of the same price whose lead in is perma free and has already been downloaded 600 times. I've sold like four copies in two and a half weeks at a $.99 price point. wow... (Plus, those were proofread by someone other than me.) I just look at those numbers and feel like gagging. I spent weeks researching it and weeks agonizing over the editing.... I even... paid someone.  

It just goes to show, what matters most is what people want to read. I know of several authors who have become incredibly popular who started out with VERY poor editing. (Probably worse than mine, since my grammar and writing craft is pretty well honed.) But those authors were able to tell a good story that people wanted to hear. They earned up to being able to pay for all the goody services that save us all time and stress.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

S. Shine said:


> I spend a grand total of 0 cents when I started.
> 
> That's right: not a single cent!
> 
> Wouldn't recommend it though.


This! This is absolutely possible. If you are reading this thread and are holding up writing or publishing until you have enough money DON'T. IMHO there are plenty of things you could do to increase the success of your book. Undoubtedly. Many of them will cost money, however don't fall into a trap of needing to have money to publish. It could be a self imposed barrier to putting yourself out there.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Investment for first three books (put out all at once) was $1300. $1000 for a website, which I figured I'd have had to pay for whether I were self-published or trad published. $300 for three covers + art. 

When I made some money in the first month, I took about 10% of it and invested it in a book tour for each book and a couple ads, testing the waters. Tours seemed worth it, ads didn't.

I do my own editing, because I have many years of editorial experience, but I also have six harsh and cruel beta readers. I write my own blurbs, but ditto--used to be a marketing writer.

Unless you are brilliant at covers, pay for it. And by "brilliant," I mean that you know how to create not only a really attractive cover appropriate for your genre, but also a branded author look for yourself. Covers sell books.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

$10 for ISBN. That's about it.


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## franksergeant (Dec 1, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> I paid about $15 for the stock image of the papyrus background I've used on all three (will be four soon) of my Egyptian historical novels and ...


Were you able to pay the single $15 fee and then use the image on multiple covers? We usually use Can Stock for our stock images, about $2 to $3 per image, but the license is good for only a single "use" (such as a book cover for a single title). If we were to use it on a second book cover, we would need to pay the fee again.



ElHawk said:


> I have several partners -- other historical novelists -- I partner with to trade developmental edits and proofreading. It's a time-intensive thing, but dang, they give really great edits (and hopefully I do the same in return.) It is probably something I'll outsource once I am writing full-time, at least a few times to see whether it's worth the expense to me, or whether it's better for me to continue trading the work with my group.


I do much the same but on a smaller scale, trading off editing and proofreading with another writer. We tend to go through each book many times. Our policy is that if we find any errors on a proofreading pass, we must do another proofreading pass. We format as we go, so we proofread in several formats: on the computer in a word processor or text editor, on the computer in a web browser (the html version), on a Kindle. I suspect we catch different errors depending on whether we are sitting at the computer or in an easy chair. Also, the line breaks fall in different places, making certain typos easier to spot.



ElHawk said:


> I paid for one Bookbub ad to promote my Egyptian series...that was $160 at the time.


We haven't tried BookBub. How were your results? Did you feel it was profitable?

Frank


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

I have to give "props" to those that do most of the heavy lifting themselves. I did this with my first two titles and found that 1.) it consumed time better spent writing (for me) 2.) looked horrible compared to professional formatting (keep in mind I can't paint for more than eight minutes before it starts to look like $#%!, so much of that has to do with patience). I also did it myself, because I was on a tighter budget. My second book faired well in terms of sales, so I assembled a team and outsourced everything for book three. I never looked back. For me, putting "my team" to work on the final draft is an incredibly uplifting and relieving experience. Cost breakdown below:

Cover (Createspace PDF and ebook): $1000 - In my view, this is the most important aspect of your public appearance. If the cover looks fishy, your sales will smell fishy.
Editing: $600 (Light developmental edit and thorough line edit)
Proofing: $300
Formatting: $150 (A good formatter will not charge an exorbitant fee...they do it quickly and efficiently)
Copyright: $35
Marketing: Variable over course of year. Probably in the $500-$1000 range.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Cover (Createspace PDF and ebook): $1000 - In my view, this is the most important aspect of your public appearance. If the cover looks fishy, your sales will smell fishy.
> Editing: $600 (Light developmental edit and thorough line edit)
> Proofing: $300
> Formatting: $150 (A good formatter will not charge an exorbitant fee...they do it quickly and efficiently)
> ...


Oh, good. I was starting to think I was the only one around here who bothers to register copyright. That, plus ISBNs, just seem like important due diligence business things.

This would be very close to my ideal budget, but I don't have the sales to finance it. I do wonder a lot about whether it would be worth investing in some professional editorial feedback, since it's so, so hard to find good beta readers (or critique swap buddies).

I recently read this book, http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Prolific-Definitive-Procrastination-Perfectionism-ebook/dp/B006J7BZ8E/, which details her publication budget. She spent about $12,000. Yikes. She did spend a lot on print books to promote her business, and she feels that it was worth it, but obviously has money to burn (by my standards).


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## franksergeant (Dec 1, 2013)

ameliasmith said:


> I do wonder a lot about whether it would be worth investing in some professional editorial feedback, since it's so, so hard to find good beta readers (or critique swap buddies).


You make a good point. It reminds me of a Saturday Night Live bit that went something like "if you knew today was your last day on earth, would you do anything different -- especially if by doing something different it wouldn't be your last day?"

So, maybe a book's expected income doesn't justify spending $1000 preparing it, yet if you did spend the $1000 maybe its income would more than justify the expense. A tough decision. However, if you have a track record of each book on average earning $10,000 the first year and $4,000 every year after, it becomes an easier decision. 



ameliasmith said:


> I recently read this book, ... Secrets-Prolific-Definitive-Procrastination-Perfectionism ..., which details her publication budget. She spent about $12,000. Yikes.


Yikes indeed. It may make sense for Rettig due to book sales and income from her seminars, etc., but it brings to mind the term "vanity publishing". I think for the huge majority of no-name or low-name authors, it would be insane.

Frank


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