# Transgressive fiction - Chuck Palahniuk, Brett Easton Ellis, Irvine Welsh, etc



## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

I've discovered several books I really like fall under the somewhat obscure category of "Transgressive Fiction". Examples of authors linked to it are Chuck Palahniuk, Brett Easton Ellis and Irvine Welsh.

Wikipedia defines it as:

"Transgressive fiction is a genre of literature that focuses on characters who feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and who break free of those confines in unusual and/or illicit ways. Because they are rebelling against the basic norms of society, protagonists of transgressional fiction may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic."

There are a few other authors mentioned on the Wikipedia article, but can any of you recommend other authors and specific books you've read that fit this genre? (And which you'd recommend?)


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I never thought to lump these authors into their own sub-genre before, but I can see it. _Trainspotting_, _Porno_, _Pygmy_, _Invisible Monsters_, _American Psycho_, _Less Than Zero_, .... its a great body of work by some, arguably, disturbed authors

I would include Scott Heim in this list with Mysterious Skin and We Disappear - both fantastic and more than a little disturbing. Maybe early Poppy Z. Brite with things like Exquisite Corpse. I might also include Bart Yates with The Brothers Bishop ...


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Interesting! I can see the logic, too. *ponder*

This might suit:


I loved it.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Some great suggestions there of books I haven't read yet but look promising; I will slowly work my way through them!

Anyone else have any book recommendations in this genre?


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

I was going to suggest Kathy Acker, but I see that Wikipedia beat me to it. She's totally different in tone, but I think better than, say, Chuck, who seems to have written the same book over and over again, a little bit? I'd also recommend Mary Gaitskill - her short story "Secretary" was the basis for the movie of the same name, included in the collection Bad Behavior, although the movie is basically puppy dogs and rainbows compared to the story. (Gaitskill is the author who, after Bad Behavior was published, had an interviewer ask, "have you ever turned a trick?" and she responded, "yes, have you?") Bad Behavior is probably more transgressive in the sense you mean it than the later works that I've read. 

And now I'm wondering if Hubert Selby, Jr. is the mystery author I couldn't remember the other day...


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## jherrick (Apr 1, 2011)

Would _Bright Lights, Big City _ by Jay McInerney fit? Another nice treasure (different author) from the Less Than Zero '80s era.


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

William Burroughs would seem the obvious 'big' name not mentioned yet - Junky, Naked Lunch etc...

I'd also recommend Marion Stein and her book Loisaida - some drugs and debauchery in there for sure.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

James Everington said:


> William Burroughs would seem the obvious 'big' name not mentioned yet - Junky, Naked Lunch etc...
> 
> I'd also recommend Marion Stein and her book Loisaida - some drugs and debauchery in there for sure.


Thanks guys! I've just bought Loisaida and will try that one next.

I've heard "Last Exit to Brooklyn" mentioned as Transgressive Fiction; haven't read that one yet either though.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

tituspowell said:


> ...
> Wikipedia defines it as:
> 
> "Transgressive fiction is a genre of literature that focuses on characters who feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and who break free of those confines in unusual and/or illicit ways. Because they are rebelling against the basic norms of society, protagonists of transgressional fiction may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic."
> ...


When I read that, I thought it could include a _lot_ of fiction. The choices become significantly trimmed down when you read the next few paragraphs:

The genre of "transgressive fiction" was defined by Los Angeles Times literary critic Michael Silverblatt.[1] Rene Chun, a journalist for The New York Times, described transgressive fiction thus:[2]

"A literary genre that graphically explores such topics as incest and other aberrant sexual practices, mutilation, the sprouting of sexual organs in various places on the human body, urban violence and violence against women, drug use, and highly dysfunctional family relationships, and that is based on the premise that knowledge is to be found at the edge of experience and that the body is the site for gaining knowledge." 
...
Transgressional fiction shares similarities with splatterpunk, noir, and erotic fiction in its willingness to portray forbidden behaviors and shock readers. But it differs in that protagonists often pursue means to better themselves and their surroundings-albeit unusual and extreme ones. Much transgressional fiction deals with searches for self-identity, inner peace, or personal freedom. Unbound by usual restrictions of taste and literary convention, its proponents claim that transgressional fiction is capable of pungent social commentary.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Geek Love by  Katherine Dunn.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

I may be out on a limb here, but would expand this to include:

Marquis de Sade
The story of O ??
Nabokov's Lolita
Notes from the Underground
Kafka's books
Catch-22 (Screw War, the whole capitalistic system is a madhouse and a ripoff, and only one who opts out of society is sane)
Kurt Vonnegut (??)

Richard Crasta


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## BenCheetham (Jul 24, 2011)

Pretty much anything by William Burroughs, of course. 

It's not fiction but George Orwell's 'Down and out in Paris and London' is a wonderful account of his experiences willfully living on the outer fringes of society.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

jherrick said:


> Would _Bright Lights, Big City _ by Jay McInerney fit? Another nice treasure (different author) from the Less Than Zero '80s era.


Hm. I find this sorta mainstream, hip, coming-of-agey, not so much transgressive.


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## Julia March (Feb 22, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I'd also recommend Mary Gaitskill


Definitely Mary Gaitskill. I would also mention _Two Girls Fat and Thin_ and _Veronica_, her 2 novels. In the longer works you get so many more details that sometimes show you why what looks transgressive is not, or conversely.

These are obviously written from a female point of view.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

tituspowell said:


> I've heard "Last Exit to Brooklyn" mentioned as Transgressive Fiction; haven't read that one yet either though.


Last Exit to Brooklyn definitely sounds like it would be up your alley. Or any other Selby book for that matter. He is one of my all time favs.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the suggestions guys... I have a quite a backlog of books to look forward to now!


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## JChris (Jul 18, 2011)

tituspowell said:


> "Transgressive fiction is a genre of literature that focuses on characters who feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and who break free of those confines in unusual and/or illicit ways. Because they are rebelling against the basic norms of society, protagonists of transgressional fiction may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic."


I've read Easton and Palahniuk, but I never knew there was a sub genre for these kinds of books. Based on your definition, I think Choke could possibly be the best example. That's one my favorites. I thought the movie botched the novel's ending about the looking past the confines and expectations of society. I thought the novel's ending with the castle of rocks was more uplifting. Anyone else read this book?


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

i highly recommend 'eustace chisholm and the works' and 'in a shallow grave' by james purdy.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Geek Love by Katherine Dunn.


Great book.

and by the way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grady_Stiles


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## Libby13 (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm a fan of all three authors you mentioned and I would second you trying Last Exit to Brooklyn.  Just a wonderful wonderful book and in line with the others you've read.  

This is the first time I've heard of the genre.  I have a few recs but am not 100% sure if they fit:

The Perks of Being a Wallflower
The Arsonist's Guide to Writers Homes In New England - gentler tone then those mentioned


And would Catcher in the Rye count?  I feel like it must.


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## youngadultfiction (Jul 28, 2011)

perks of a wallflower would definitely fit in, although it's more subtle and slower that say Less than zero. 'Apples' by Richard Milward was an amazing read, dark teenage and dirty, and also 'Before i Die' by Jenny Downham, These i would definitely recommend.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Libby13 said:


> And would Catcher in the Rye count? I feel like it must.


South Park has something to say about that. (I gotta say, I had the same reaction as the South Park kids when I had to read it in school: "this? really?")

I will say that as a result of this thread I picked up Geek Love, and whoa, immediately uncomfortable! I did not know what a "geek" was. Apparently. And just the first few pages are a writer's seminar in dramatic pacing and verb choice. Seems like it's gonna be a fantastic book that will make me feel totally squicked out until the overwhelming humanity or whatever it is dawns.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I've checked out every one of your recommendations. I don't think I can bring myself to read Geek Love based on the Amazon description, but have added Apples, Before I Die and Last Exit To Brooklyn to my 'to read' list. Several others sound interested too. I just stared reading Loisaida from earlier in this thread.


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## JimJ (Mar 3, 2009)

Not long after I got into reading Chuck Palahniuk, someone recommended The Contortionist's Handbook by Craig Clevenger. It's been a long time since I read it and I don't remember much about it (my memory of books is pretty terrible) but I do remember enjoying it. May reread now that this thread got me thinking about it. It's 6.99 on Kindle but I see that they also have a bundle with the author's second book, Dermaphoria, which I've never read, for 3 bucks more: 
 

Also, I think Donald Ray Pollock would probably apply. I just read his collection of linked short stories called Knockemstiff and there's some really gritty, ugly stuff in there. He also has a novel out called The Devil All The Time, which I have from Audible but haven't listened to yet.:


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

tituspowell said:


> I've discovered several books I really like fall under the somewhat obscure category of "Transgressive Fiction". Examples of authors linked to it are Chuck Palahniuk, Brett Easton Ellis and Irvine Welsh.
> 
> Wikipedia defines it as:
> 
> ...


I might be missing the mark, but wouldn't Catcher in the Rye? fit that description? There's probably a few classics that kind of launched that whole rebellion thing, unless transgressive specifically refers to modern works??


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## Spitzbub (Jul 4, 2011)

Interesting thread and titles.  Definitely "Crash" by JG Ballard.  It's a wild ride, pardon the pun, with a uniquely disturbing logic.  What a mad daredevil he was to write it--just like his characters.

John


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> I might be missing the mark, but wouldn't Catcher in the Rye? fit that description? There's probably a few classics that kind of launched that whole rebellion thing, unless transgressive specifically refers to modern works??


I haven't read Catcher in the Rye yet, but it sounds like it would fit the transgressive fiction category. That, Crash and The Devil All The Time all sound really good. Now I just need more hours in the day for reading!


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Ok, so, to some extent, what is or is not transgressive is based on contemporary social mores, right? It's a relative term; you have to transgress something.

So, I don't think, by contemporary standards, Catcher in the Rye could possibly be considered transgressive. I understand that at the time it was published, etc. etc. But...that was then. It may have been banned by a few schools when it was first published, but now it's required reading in a lot of middle schools. How transgressive do you really think it can be? Middle schools. For homework. 

Veering into bigger questions...I'm not sure how well Catcher in the Rye has really held up. I was not impressed when I had to read it in school, and I was bored when I tried to read it again later. I'd probably have to give it a real go to feel even remotely fair about calling it overhyped, but life is short, and there are books out there I'll enjoy more, so for now I'll stick with "not for me."


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm reading The Box Man by Kobo Abe right now. That might also fit the bill.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

**** friendly reminder:  authors, we're in the Book Corner so please refrain from mentioning your own work but, rather, address the question from the point of view of yourself as 'reader'.   ****


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> So, I don't think, by contemporary standards, Catcher in the Rye could possibly be considered transgressive. I understand that at the time it was published, etc. etc. But...that was then. It may have been banned by a few schools when it was first published, but now it's required reading in a lot of middle schools...


And people are still trying to ban it now: http://www.bannedbooksweek.org/node/2

Click one of the Florida ones: "(2010) J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye was challenged, but retained, in the Martin County, Fla. School District despite a parent's concern about inappropriate language."

I found that after just a few clicks; probably on a few of the others too. Worth looking at the whole site and what some people evidently still do consider "transgressive..."


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

James Everington said:


> And people are still trying to ban it now: http://www.bannedbooksweek.org/node/2
> 
> Click one of the Florida ones: "(2010) J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye was challenged, but retained, in the Martin County, Fla. School District despite a parent's concern about inappropriate language."
> 
> I found that after just a few clicks; probably on a few of the others too. Worth looking at the whole site and what some people evidently still do consider "transgressive..."


Yeah, I know, but it's sort of famous for being a banned book by now, right? Like, parents, if they are the type to look for altercations with school boards, know to look for this one. They don't even have to read it to be able to object; they can just read the objections that have been made before. If fact, I doubt most parents have read the books on their kids' reading lists, if only because most adults aren't readers. But this one is a reliable flash point.

I just think the activation energy threshold on banning a book gets lowered every time someone tries it, if that makes sense. It's usually the same books that periodically go through the whole banning cycle. Or maybe those are just the ones that get covered in the media? Who knows.

I just don't think you'd have anyone even try to put something like American Psycho or Geek Love on a 7th grade reading list. But Catcher in the Rye: pretty reliable. And I've never known a kid to do anything but yawn at it.


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> I just don't think you'd have anyone even try to put something like American Psycho or Geek Love on a 7th grade reading list. But Catcher in the Rye: pretty reliable. And I've never known a kid to do anything but yawn at it.


American Psycho - now _that_ would be interesting!

I love Catcher In The Rye, but not really because of any transgressive content, just the way it's written.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

James Everington said:


> American Psycho - now _that_ would be interesting!
> 
> I love Catcher In The Rye, but not really because of any transgressive content, just the way it's written.


Right? This makes me want to teach, for, like, 2 minutes. Then I remember I tried tutoring, once, and it was terrible for everyone.


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## anguabell (Jan 9, 2011)

On a lighter note, _Confederacy of Dunces_. I was also thinking about Steinbeck's _Cannery Row_ and _Sweet Thursday_ - I am not sure if those would fit the bill though because the characters in those books kind of lack the angst and edge that seem to be the main motivations in the books mentioned in this thread.


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## Spitzbub (Jul 4, 2011)

Perhaps another you might like is Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess, with its vicious little antihero who is a connoisseur of classical music.  Also, I've not read Dexter Darkly Dreaming, but I'm hooked on the TV show Dexter because of these same transgressive elements, i.e., dark antisocial humor.

I heard on the radio this morning that Fahrenheit 451 is often banned, and I thought, how can that not strike everyone as ironic or self-parodying?  But the book banners would not know what that means.  It takes a special kind of knucklehead.

John


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Spitzbub said:


> I heard on the radio this morning that Fahrenheit 451 is often banned, and I thought, how can that not strike everyone as ironic or self-parodying?


If you were a book burner, the first book you'd burn would be the book about the evils of book burning ... n'est-ce pas?


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Spitzbub said:


> Perhaps another you might like is Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess, with its vicious little antihero who is a connoisseur of classical music. Also, I've not read Dexter Darkly Dreaming, but I'm hooked on the TV show Dexter because of these same transgressive elements, i.e., dark antisocial humor.
> 
> I heard on the radio this morning that Fahrenheit 451 is often banned, and I thought, how can that not strike everyone as ironic or self-parodying? But the book banners would not know what that means. It takes a special kind of knucklehead.
> 
> John


Yes, I thought of Clockwork Orange when I was posting last night. On the topic of banned books, I wrote a blog about it a few months ago. The American Library Association posted a list of the top 100 books that some folks wanted to ban or burn. You won't believe this, but it's true. One of them was Charlotte's Web.


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

Debra Purdy Kong said:


> The American Library Association posted a list of the top 100 books that some folks wanted to ban or burn. You won't believe this, but it's true. One of them was Charlotte's Web.


Too right. That spider was a damn socialist mouthpiece if ever I heard one.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

James Everington said:


> Too right. That spider was a d*mn socialist mouthpiece if ever I heard one.


Probably because of the first line of the book:

_"Where's Papa going with that ax?" said Fern to her mother as they were setting the table for breakfast._

It goes on to explain that he's going to kill one of the pigs just born because it's a runt.

So there's the one side that would object to their kids reading that such things can happen, and, of course, the other faction that doesn't like the fact that the pig wasn't actually killed.

Mind you, though the kid is extremely forceful that the runt pig shouldn't be killed, she is, apparently, happy to have bacon for breakfast. Maybe it's the 'anti-hypocrit' faction that wants it banned.

But most likely, it's the people who don't think it's appropriate to imagine that animals 'talk' and 'think' and especially that spiders could spell.


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## Spitzbub (Jul 4, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> But most likely, it's the people who don't think it's appropriate to imagine that animals 'talk' and 'think' and especially that spiders could spell.


They didn't pay much attention in science class, but deep down inside they know and hate the fact that we descended from talking apes.

John


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## Iain Manson (Apr 3, 2011)

James Everington said:


> William Burroughs would seem the obvious 'big' name not mentioned yet - Junky, Naked Lunch etc...
> 
> I'd also recommend Marion Stein and her book Loisaida - some drugs and debauchery in there for sure.


It's a bit late for me to join the party, Titus, since you're now reading _Loisaida_, but I'll chip in anyway. I'm not entirely sure that it can be considered "transgressive", but it's a terrific read. I reviewed it on my blog not so long ago, and still consider it the best self-published novel I've seen. Could you let us know how you get on with it? (No pressure, but laboratory tests have shown those who don't enjoy _Loisaida_ are "of low intellect, and emit an unpleasant odour.")

Just to throw something else into the mix, what about Kafka's _Metamorphosis_? There's got to be something transgressive in a novel whose main protagonist is a cockroach , or something similar. Weird guy, Kafka.


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## MarionNYC (Sep 1, 2011)

Haven't been on these boards in quite a while, but I'm a google-whore and in my daily "who's talking about me now" check, I found I'd been mentioned.  

Titus -- Last Exit to Brooklyn is kind of essential reading for transgressive fiction, and certainly an influence for many writers, Richard Price among them.  In fact, Price would also fit into the transgressive category.  

Since you are willing to read the lowly indies, I'd strongly recommend Larry Harrison's Glimpses of Floating World and Cody James' books The Dead Beat and Babylon.  Sorry for no links, but everything except Babylon is easy to find on Amazon and Smashwords.  (Babylon might be missing in action, but I think it's on Lulu.)


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

I've been meaning to recommend: The Collector Collector by Tibor Fischer. Great book. Closest literary equivalent to the underground comics of the late 60s and early 70s.


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## Spitzbub (Jul 4, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> I've been meaning to recommend: The Collector Collector by Tibor Fischer.


The discussion reminded me of fictional characters who seek out transgressive literature. In Fingersmith by Sarah Waters, a young woman and her uncle, very proper and Victorian, together collect and catalog all kinds of pornography. They're quite serious about it. Their tone is scholarly, and the contrast with the nature of the material feels subversive to read about, transgressive.

John


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

Iain Manson said:


> It's a bit late for me to join the party, Titus, since you're now reading _Loisaida_, but I'll chip in anyway. I'm not entirely sure that it can be considered "transgressive", but it's a terrific read. I reviewed it on my blog not so long ago, and still consider it the best self-published novel I've seen. Could you let us know how you get on with it? (No pressure, but laboratory tests have shown those who don't enjoy _Loisaida_ are "of low intellect, and emit an unpleasant odour.")
> 
> Just to throw something else into the mix, what about Kafka's _Metamorphosis_? There's got to be something transgressive in a novel whose main protagonist is a cockroach , or something similar. Weird guy, Kafka.


Hi Iain - you're right, _Loisaida_ is fantastic. And with the multiple view-points, the drugs, and all the seedy details, I suspect it would be considered 'transgressive' by some.

Oh and I'm a big Kafka fan!


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm only halfway through so far but Loisaida is excellent. Very well written; I had no idea it was an indie. Well done Marion!


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## MarionNYC (Sep 1, 2011)

tituspowell said:


> Very well written; I had no idea it was an indie. Well done Marion!


Ha! As in, "Funny, you don't _look_ indie."

It must be the faux-publishing imprint that fools them.

Might I suggest you check out the Year 0 website? Lots of transgressive stuff there.

Edited to add: Just thought of another one (not an indie): _Great Apes _by Will Self.


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## pfenton (Sep 8, 2011)

MarionNYC said:


> Ha! As in, "Funny, you don't _look_ indie."
> 
> It must be the faux-publishing imprint that fools them.
> 
> ...


Loved Great Apes. I also enjoyed The Butt, but I did lose track of the plot from time to time.


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

Okay, old thread, but I love this genre.

Donald Ray Pollock is the new hotness. I haven't read The Devil All the Time, yet, but his short story collection, Knockemstiff is awesome.


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## MarionNYC (Sep 1, 2011)

Just to keep the subject going, I'm going to say something possibly controversial for this thread:  American Psycho -- has a great concept, a serial killer amongst us and he goes around TELLING people but no one listens or they literally can't hear him.  But it's not a great read.  The writing itself just isn't that great.  I think of Bret Easton Ellis as someone who got very lucky, very young with Less Than Zero -- also more concept that content.


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## sal79parody (Apr 7, 2011)

hmm... I loved American Psycho, but I can see where you're coming from. His last book-I forget the name-was underwhelming. 

I would add Jack Ketchum to this list, along with Ryu Murakami.


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## MarionNYC (Sep 1, 2011)

Just wanted to revive this thread by adding a suggestion, and it's only $1 on Kindle! Sweet. The book is One Hundred Dollar Misunderstanding by Robert Gover http://www.amazon.com/one-hundred-dollar-misunderstanding-ebook/dp/B003XRELUW/ .

This is without debt transgressive. It's also offensive and very politically incorrect. You have to take it as satire which was the author's intent, otherwise it's a racist peace of trash that promotes child-trafficking. I haven't read it in years, and if I were reading it for the first time today, I might not be able to defend it. But the first time I read it I was 18, and it had been recommended by my creative writing teacher, Mr. Price. Who was not long for teaching with Hollywood calling. Whatever happened to that guy? And it had, I believe, been recommended to him by his teacher, a Mr. Selby.

If I'm honest with myself the contrasting multiple points of view, the technique of it, was of course a big influence on that novel I wrote which has been mentioned on this thread. Beyond that what reading Gover taught me is that unreliable narrators are unreliable to US, to themselves they are just telling the truth as they know it.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

MarionNYC said:


> I think of Bret Easton Ellis as someone who got very lucky, very young with Less Than Zero -- also more concept that content.


I think Less Than Zero is a beautiful book.



sal79paradise said:


> ... along with Ryu Murakami.


I liked Almost Transparent Blue. Coin Locker Babies is on my to-read list.


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## Nulke (Mar 5, 2011)

The author Harry Crews writes what many would consider transgressive fiction; his earlier books being considered his better works. He's very much in the vein of Donald Ray Pollock of "Knockemstiff" and "The Devil All Time".

http://www.amazon.com/Feast-Snakes-Novel-Harry-Crews/dp/0684842483/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1322233610&sr=1-1-catcorr


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## markarayner (Mar 14, 2011)

Anything by Tom Bradley, or one of his publishers, Enigmatic Ink. (http://enigmaticink.weebly.com/)

I think my own work would qualify too; both of my novels are teeming with anti-social characters.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

tituspowell said:


> Thanks everyone. I've checked out every one of your recommendations. I don't think I can bring myself to read Geek Love based on the Amazon description, but have added Apples, Before I Die and Last Exit To Brooklyn to my 'to read' list. Several others sound interested too. I just stared reading Loisaida from earlier in this thread.


_Geek Love_ is one heck of a tough read as far as comfort level. Excellent writing though. I consider it one of the better novels in the sub-genre.


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## SidneyW (Aug 6, 2010)

I had not encountered that term. Interesting.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

MarionNYC said:


> Just thought of another one (not an indie): _Great Apes _by Will Self.


I've been meaning to read Self for years (every time I'd grab a Selby book and see him shelfed right next to him) but havent done it. I need to rectify that at once! Thanks for the suggestion.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

MarionNYC said:


> Just to keep the subject going, I'm going to say something possibly controversial for this thread: American Psycho -- has a great concept, a serial killer amongst us and he goes around TELLING people but no one listens or they literally can't hear him. But it's not a great read. The writing itself just isn't that great. I think of Bret Easton Ellis as someone who got very lucky, very young with Less Than Zero -- also more concept that content.


Pardon the delayed response! The first time I read American Psycho, I thought it was a great example of how not to write a novel. But it grew on me over time and after a second reading I like it a lot better. I now like the fact that much of the book is an endless observation of brand names and male grooming products, with only brief episodes of psychosis - it reflects what's important in the character's mind. But I can totally understand how that could annoy people. I admit to skimming passages, which it could be argued one shouldn't do if a book is good!

Lunar Park I read recently and didn't like at all.

Anyone who's read both Less Than Zero and American Psycho... How do they compare?

Titus


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## soofy (Nov 26, 2011)

Would Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy fit the bill? Considering the incessant and mind numbing depravity and violence done pretty much for the sake of it by the Glanton Gang and Judge Holden, I would say there is more than a few social transgressions in that novel.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I know you mentioned Irvine Welsh at the top but "Maribou Stork Nightmares" is one of his least read, but, to me, the most powerful. For a large part of the book, you aren't sure where things are going. Then comes the ending. The most sickening ending. Brilliant. Disturbed, but brilliant.

It takes a lot to shock me, but that book did it. Oh, the ending.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll put both 'Maribou Stork Nightmares' and 'Blood Meridian' on the To Read list then.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

A warning: Maribou Stork Nightmares will test your patience at times. But persevere. It's worth it. 

It's not hard work to read, you just may wonder where it's all going, and then...


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

tituspowell said:


> Anyone who's read both Less Than Zero and American Psycho... How do they compare?


Much preferred Less Than Zero to American Psycho.

Also, I should add: I rate Geek Love very, very highly. I wouldn't let the Amazon description deter you. I recommend it unconditionally.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for the warning. I've just bought both that and Blood Meridian on the Kindle. I might start a thread asking for some light, cheerful reading afterwards!

P.S. Thanks Steve; looks like I need to get Geek Love and Less Than Zero too then.


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## AprilTara (Dec 30, 2011)

If you're a fan of Chuck P. and BEE, you'll probably like Will Christopher Baer. He wrote the "Phineas Poe" trilogy which consists of:
Kiss Me, Judas (Phineas Poe)
Penny Dreadful (Phineas Poe)
Hell's Half Acre

I'm not sure if this is still available, but the copy I have is all three books bound into one.

I can't believe I've been a fan of this type of story for so long and never knew until today that it had a name. I just always called it "dark stuff".


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## John A. A. Logan (Jan 25, 2012)

I don't know if it's on Kindle, I'd be pretty surprised if it was, but CAIN'S BOOK, by the Scottish writer, Alexander Trocchi, a book about heroin addiction by a major addict, set in 1950s New York where Trocchi lived then...but also a beautifully written and touching book...I think the paperback used to have a quote from Norman Mailer on the back saying something about the writer's genius and the book's art. 

I second A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES...no-one can have any doubt about the book's transgressions after reading the scene...involving "Rex" I think the name was. One of my favourite novels though...

Really though, the transgressions of Easton Ellis, Welsh, Palahniuk etc........are as nothing compared to what goes on in Knut Hamsun's 1890 novel, HUNGER. 
Or, for that matter, Dostoyevsky's NOTES FROM UNDERGROUND and his other books...

Hamsun and Dostoyevsky have heart and soul invested in their psychological and spiritual transgressions.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> Much preferred Less Than Zero to American Psycho.


I'd second that. Which doesn't mean that AP isn't worth a look.


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

tituspowell said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I'll put both 'Maribou Stork Nightmares' and 'Blood Meridian' on the To Read list then.


Just finished Marabou Stalk Nightmares. Thanks for the recommendation, David. It does ramble and is very disturbing in places but ultimately I enjoyed it a lot. Definitely counts as transgressive fiction.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

I love all the titles mentioned that I read--_Geek Love _is a real favorite, but it has elements of fantasy, I think, that differentiate it a little bit. As far as classics/non-fiction go, I'm surprised nobody mentioned Hunter Thompson, particularly _Hell's Angels_. But my favorite non-fiction addition to this genre (so weird to think of it that way) would be Jerry Stahl's _Permanent Midnight_. So. Good.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I love all three of those authors, they're just great and I can see how their fiction could be lumped into the same category.  Another I might consider part of the group is James Frey, although I've only read his first (supposedly) autobiographical book.

Chris Ward


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

AprilTara said:


> If you're a fan of Chuck P. and BEE, you'll probably like Will Christopher Baer. He wrote the "Phineas Poe" trilogy which consists of:
> Kiss Me, Judas (Phineas Poe)
> Penny Dreadful (Phineas Poe)
> Hell's Half Acre
> ...


Agreed with this. I bought Kiss Me Judas on a whim a few years ago and I loved it so much I used to limit myself to one chapter a day. I heard it described as "noir" fiction, though, but it certainly has an offbeat style, and the characters are great.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Jorja Tabu said:


> nobody mentioned Hunter Thompson, particularly _Hell's Angels_.


Have a look at the chapter about Thompson's Hell's Angels in the book, "The Gang That Wouldn't Write Straight." Pretty surprising revelation of Thompson's self-mythologizing. (At least, surprising to me - but maybe I'm naive and when I read the book years ago I thought it was fact, not fictionalized.)


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## CoffeeCat (Sep 13, 2010)

I never really thought of Palahniuck as Transgressive. I've always loved his works, and Transgressive fiction but those two never clicked for me before. 

My favorite Transgressive authors that come to mind are: 
Dennis Cooper - In university, some had a hard time choosing his books as reading material for courses because of the violence and gay sex but I love his writing. Frisk and The Sluts are my favorites by him.

I also loved JT Leroy's Sarah and The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

I'll check that chapter out, but I never really assumed Thompson was exceptionally truthful (more because of his booze intake--could anybody remember anything with a tenth of that going on?)--I think if even half of it is true it would count, though.

And thank you--I couldn't remember that author's name.  JT Leroy, the super scandal, still wrote some books that definitely fall in this genre.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Jorja Tabu said:


> more because of his booze intake--could anybody remember anything with a tenth of that going on?


Oh, but apparently that was part of the self-mythologizing, too. The Angels interviewed for "The Gang That Wouldn't Write Straight" said he could barely hold a few drinks.


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

But, dude, they're _Hell's Angels_.

I'm not picking sides, or even saying they're necessarily wrong, it's just... I cook using a pot and a kettle, I guess.

Jokes aside, I did read that article actually. I'm not sure if it's all crap whether or not that actually makes it even more genuinely qualified for this genre?


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Jorja Tabu said:


> But, dude, they're _Hell's Angels_. ... I'm not sure if it's all crap whether or not that actually makes it even more genuinely qualified for this genre?


Oh I still like the story ... to the point where I liked learning about what part of the story was true and what part "might not be." (I found the interviews in "Gang That Wouldn't Write Straight" pretty credible.) It was like reading Fitzgerald when I was a teenager, then reading his biography when I was older to discover where he got the material for the books, how he took what happened to him in life and transformed it into fiction.


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## Sequart (Jun 10, 2012)

Hey Joe,

If you are looking for something new, try the sample to Nira/Sussa. It won it's author a P.H.d. 
I feel its rare to find something that is both disturbing and well written.


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## mestrin (Aug 27, 2012)

I write in this category (albeit with a greater emphasis on dark humor), but I'm not quite sure it's a full-on genre. These authors have some thematic similarities, but like a lot of you have mentioned, they aren't naturally grouped together. Although as a group, they do make sense. So I think transgressive seems as good a label as any, but I wouldn't try to apply to many rules and argue that it's a genre.

I'd suggest checking out The Average American Male. It's little more Max Tucker than Bret Easton Ellis, but he captures the darkness of a 20-something college student quite well.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Average-American-Male-Novel/dp/0061231673/ref=pd_sim_b_4

As for the Catcher in the Rye question, I don't know. I don't think it has to be a contemporary book, although a lot of these authors are influenced by post modern thinking, so finding classics that fit the bill might be hard.

My sense is that Catcher's Holden Caulfield sort of fits, or maybe did for JD Salinger. But for several generations, Holden came to represent teenage angst. The idea that teenagers would have angst almost became normal, or part of the mainstream. The protagantists in these books aren't quite like that. That is, they take their anomie further... so far, in fact, that they can never be viewed as a representative of the norm. And that brings me to my second suggestion: anything by Charles Bukowski. Factotum is great start. But all of his books are worth a look. Enjoy!

http://www.amazon.com/Factotum-Charles-Bukowski/dp/0876852630/ref=la_B000APEQ9G_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1349712524&sr=1-11


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks guys! Reading Nira/Sussa at the moment.

Titus


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## tituspowell (Dec 29, 2010)

And I've now finished Nira/Sussa. Really enjoyed it, very disturbing though it is at times. It definitely belongs in our transgressive category. Thanks for the recommendation Sequart!


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## thedavebright (Sep 8, 2012)

Transgressive is one of my favorite styles. I've dabbled in writing it a little too. Tons of good recommendations on this topic. Thanks everyone


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

AprilTara said:


> If you're a fan of Chuck P. and BEE, you'll probably like Will Christopher Baer. He wrote the "Phineas Poe" trilogy which consists of:
> Kiss Me, Judas (Phineas Poe)
> Penny Dreadful (Phineas Poe)
> Hell's Half Acre
> ...


Yes! I guess I'm late to the party (only just joined the boards today), but I was reading this thread and wondering, _Why hasn't anyone mentioned Will Christopher Baer!?! _ And then you did, lol!

I just checked and all three from the trilogy are on Kindle:   

The second one is a little strange for the set, but all three are phenomenal!

Also, since nobody's mentioned her - she might be a little too domestic for some tastes - but A.M. Homes is pretty weird/darkly good. She writes a lot about the fringe of suburban life though. Less noir, more like American Beauty if you know what I mean.


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## MisterPasscod3 (Dec 9, 2012)

Jack Ketchum and C. W. Schultz.


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