# Why do you think so many writers give up so fast?



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I've seen lots of writers on here over the past couple of years who are not here now. Just looking over some old posts and I remember quite a few names. So I did a very quick check on a few of them to see if they were still publishing and most were not. Perhaps they started new pen names, or maybe they are still writing and are working on something epic. But I suspect a lot of them have simply given up on publishing. And I'm wondering why.

Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away?
Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality?
Do you think that day jobs and life was just too demanding to find time to keep publishing?
Do you think that they put it on hold until they were in a better place to manage it? (with x amount in the bank to support the costs involved?)
Do you think that bad reviews / low sales were too much to handle emotionally?

Gosh this list could go on and on, so I'll just post it and see if any of you have theories?

Will this be you at some point next year?

Quite honestly it could be me, because you never know what life will throw at you, but I seriously doubt it. This is my job now, I have enough of an income to keep going for the foreseeable.  But my big fear is that the industry will change on me somehow and it won't be possible to maintain... we'll see.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Some folks are gone because they're busy or moved on to other forums. I actually have been considering becoming more of a lurker, myself.

But for all your questions, the answer is "yes" for some of those who've left. That kind of cycling will always happen. It's those of us who stick with things for the long haul who are the exceptions.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Unrealistic expectations (see sig).


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I think the world of writers in general (not just on this forum) is full of people who have VERY unrealistic expectations about what it's like to be a writer. Whether it's work, money, ease of breaking out, or expectation of fame, there are SOOO many people who stubbornly believe in one particular fantasy of "being a writer," and reality never lives up to their dreams.


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## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

I think it's a combination of those factors, and they don't have the tenacity needed to be a successful writer.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

I may well be one of them in a year or so.
Struggling to balance everything else can be difficult.
For myself I am not looking at this for full time income.  I am looking at this for some supplemental and hope to have enough success that by the time my son has to go for transplant I hope that carries me through the year.
After that year one way or the other I also hope there have been enough sales so that when I am completely flattened I can at least work up enough energy to pick myself up and keep going.

Most people have unrealistic expectations and life happens .....


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## suliabryon (May 18, 2009)

It always boggles my mind to realize that there are people who get into this because they expect a big pay day. A writer I met many years ago on a critique board once told me the novel I was critting for him was his fifth, and if "nothing came of this one" he was going to quit writing and move on to some other pursuit. He'd already tried several other "artistic" endeavors to no effect. I didn't even know what to say to this guy. His writing was decent, but he had yet to develop that voice that breathes life into characters and makes a story truly gripping. He might have, if he'd continued writing. I have no idea what happened with him, but I assume he made a try of novel #5, had little to no traction, and quit as he said he would.

For me, writing is just what I do. It's what I've done since I was eleven years old, scrawling horrible mishmash "novels" that combined my favorite elements (Star Wars/Gothic Romance - they were really, REALLY bad) in spiral bound notebooks at school. I was always an unpopular nerd. One morning on the bus, one of the most popular jocks in school sat next to me and asked what I was doing. I told him writing a book, and he blinked, said "Well, you'll be rich one day. You should marry me! Ha ha." It was obviously a joke, but he meant the part about me being rich one day. A stunning number of people have no idea what the reality of writing and publishing is. I think even on these boards, the number of vocal success stories we hear about can give some people unrealistic expectations. They publish a handful of books, and if they don't take off, lose interest/faith/motivation, and move on. 

Me? I will never not be writing. And if I'm going to write, I'm going to publish. I have enough experience now to know my writing is solid. I've even had interest from traditional publishers and sold some short stories. I'm not pursuing that road anymore because I want to maintain control of my work. I will indie publish, keep writing, and keep publishing. And maybe I will never make enough money to quit my day job, but I don't believe that. Jim Butcher once told me that the only difference between him and every other writer who "didn't make it" was that he never gave up. He kept writing, and he persevered. He was talking about getting published traditionally, but I think the same thing can easily be applied to indie publishing. The more you write, the better your books get, the more readers will like them. Sure, you have to do promo to get your books in front of readers. But keep going, keep trying, and eventually you will find your niche and your brand of success. Not everyone loves writing enough, or has to level of commitment necessary to do that.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Lack of confidence. The overnight success didn't happen so they decide they're no good after all and slink away. Which is a crying shame.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> I've seen lots of writers on here over the past couple of years who are not here now. Just looking over some old posts and I remember quite a few names. So I did a very quick check on a few of them to see if they were still publishing and most were not. Perhaps they started new pen names, or maybe they are still writing and are working on something epic. But I suspect a lot of them have simply given up on publishing. And I'm wondering why.
> 
> Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away? *Oh, yeah. People often start out in this biz with instant fame and riches on their minds. I think it's the same in lots of creative professions, and eventually people either move on or get another job when it doesn't work out. I sadly recall wanting to be an artist when I was a kid, and then being told I'd never be able to support myself. I came from a family who didn't have much, so I ended up taking a path that was more stable.*
> Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality? *Absolutely. The reality of what it takes to make a livable wage in this business is vastly different than the idea of "living the writer life."*
> ...


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## FlowerShift (May 25, 2015)

I think that the reasons for quitting vary for each person. A book I came across (sorry don't remember the title) talked about a dip that everyone goes through. It's pretty much the lowest point in your career. Everyone here knows that publishing is tough, but if you can get past that low point, then it's clear sailing. For me, I think I'm just coming out of this dip, and the future seems so much brighter


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## PermaStudent (Apr 21, 2015)

Evenstar, I think you hit most of the major reasons, though everyone's situation will be unique.  I think succeeding as an indie publisher takes a perfect storm of elements.  When I started, I thought this was more of a lottery system--a bunch of good writers put stuff out there, and the lucky few go viral.  That assumption cost me.

You have to be an artist with business sense to do this all yourself, and having both of those qualities also leads to associated weaknesses.  Anyone with business sense can recognize that the hours invested in publishing may not be logically worth the relatively modest returns.  Any artist who is reading constant criticism in reviews will likely get discouraged and withdraw.  You also have to have the time and self-control to write and publish regularly, and life and work (i.e. day job) get in the way of that.

Lacking a little delusion as a business person, a lot of courage as an artist, and the time and self-control, I don't think people ever break out of the early stages of their career.  They move on to something else, and some of them may come back to try again.

ETA:  I miss some of the previous usual suspects, and one in particular who I won't call out by name.  I wish them all the best wherever their personal journeys have taken them.  I don't think I'll ever stop writing, and I hope to be with kboards for years to come.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

"Everyone has one book inside them."

It's just in some cases they feel they've only got one, and I suspect they balk at the news that they now have to produce another one every month or so in order to tread water in algorithm hell...

"Write a novel" is high on many people's bucket lists, and a high proportion never get much further than thinking about it. So fair play to those who've faded away for getting as far as they did. But putting a book together is _incredibly_ hard work - until you've done it several times and have a system in place so you don't have to think so much about all of it. When that first book doesn't lead to instant fame and fortune, I think the instinct to say "fair enough, ambition satisfied" and walk away must be pretty strong.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't think it is a question of giving up fast, more that it is a long writing journey that self-publishing has brought to a close for many them and scratched an itch.

I think that you have to look at publishing history prior to ebooks and self-publishing for the answer. Before the internet, millions chose to to give up writing after exhausting the submission circuit, their MS languishing in limbo forever, without really knowing why their book was not considered viable, and so moved onto other passtimes.

If you go to writers' sites, what I have noticed over this past 6 years, is that many first time authors have been polishing their one completed book for years, having taken more or less an equal amount of time to write that one book in their head that they just had to write. They have then gone the agent route and failed. In the past that would have been the end of it, but with self-publishing disrupting the process, many of those decided to self-publish, without really knowing the process and not really having expectations.  I think that much of that is why in the early days so much dross was self-published. Others dream of making tons of money and fame, only to quickly have their hopes dashed, in what is a highly competitive market. 

So much more information is now known about the self-publishing process and what it takes to have even a small chance of success. For one thing, successful self-publishers, and not so successful, know that it is all about running a business, presenting a professional product in the market place, building a brand with a body of work and followers, and not just about the writing. 

So many factors are involved in choosing to give up that can be outside an author's control. One is the cost of continuing the business, the other is time, but there are many more. For many authors, self-publishing that one book is an end it itself. For others, they try it as a business, and like with all new business ventures, failures are high, and further investment in money and time are not just worth it as a priority in their life.

It is always that way in business, especially with a new type of industry. Everyone dives in at the start when that market segment appears to be on the up, but in the end, only a few survive to continue. 

None of that is to say that all will give up writing. I have no doubt many serious about their writing will have reverted to submissions to agents.

The only thing that thing that stops me from giving up is that I'm too old to make a career in a rock band.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Unrealistic expectations (see sig).


Love the sig.

I've never been afraid of hard work. My goal is to figure out how to work SMART, not HARD. But not avoid work.

As to the OP's original question- there are probably many reasons.

That ca-ching is a great motivator. If you're not hearing or seeing it, it can be easy to give up- especially if you really need the money. There are better ways to make money than writing.

I write because I must.

I also enjoy challenges and there is nothing quite as challenging as self-publishing


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## Bill.Leviathan (Oct 4, 2015)

They've all gone to the Great Typewriter Farm upstate.


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## hardnutt (Nov 19, 2010)

As someone who struggled for six looong years, writing a book a year before I got published, I can tell you why so many people give up. It's just way too hard for them.

I don't have a choice. I always wanted to be a writer. I just didn't realise it when I was a kid.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

My question isn't why did they give up, but why are we hanging on?    I've given myself permission to pack it in if something better comes along. (It won't.) God gave writers just enough rope to hang themselves.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

A lot of writers...


don't know how to run a business ("Dang it. Why aren't people buying my books?!")
suffer from "shiny object" syndrome ("Ooooooo, Facebook ads!")
aren't prepared for the effort of running a business ("Pfft. I don't feel like writing today.")
want a plug-and-play money-maker ("I just want to write, buy ads and make money. Easy peasy, right?")
put too much faith in flavor-of-the-month sales tactics ("I can't get permafree to work for me!")
aren't willing to test and accumulate their own data ("Hey guys, should I go wide or stick to KU?")
get paralyzed by nonessential details* ("Should I preview book 2 in the backmatter for book 1?")

Self-publishing is a business. Our books are our products. We need loyal customers who buy from us again and again. We also need a constant stream of new customers.

The challenge is finding and attracting both in a landscape with zero barrier to entry for new authors. Zero barrier to entry means ever-increasing competition for a finite amount of sales, borrows, reads, engagement and top-of-mind awareness.

That is a tough business. And a lot of writers aren't prepared.

* Details matter, of course. Just don't let them obfuscate the basics.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Because they're not writers. 

They either thought it would be 'cool' to have a book out there, or they were on some 'get rich quick' scheme. They were just hobbyists here for a lark.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

It's all about the glamour and fame and fortune... oh.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away?
> Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality?
> Do you think that day jobs and life was just too demanding to find time to keep publishing?
> Do you think that they put it on hold until they were in a better place to manage it? (with x amount in the bank to support the costs involved?)
> ...


All the above and then some. I'm sure a few read the money threads here and assume that's what happens when you throw a book up for sale, and then get mad/discouraged when it doesn't happen for them. Writing is great work, but it's still work. Best job in the world--we get paid to make shit up. I've seen it in tradpublishing and in indie--writers who don't have discipline or realistic expectations quit eventually.

Will this be me? Nope. I've never quit on anything in my life and I sure as heck won't quit on myself. The market will change, the methods will change, but I'll keep writing and publishing until I mentally or physically cannot do so any more.


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## AlexaGrave (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm sure all of the things mentioned are reasons people are no longer writing/publishing.

For me, I'll be writing until I'm dead.   That's not saying I'll publish consistently because I never know what will happen with LIFE. But writing, well I've been doing it for well over 2 decades already, and the only way I'll stop is if I'm in the ground - lol.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Obviously self-pub has brought millions of people out of the woodwork. Many of them either don't have the skills to tell a story or the skills to write, or both. When their books don't sell, they give up. Others only had one or two ideas and once they wrote them, they lost interest. Then there is the problem of the "midlist", or more likely the bottomlist. If I was trying to live on my sales, I would be very, very skinny. 

Unlike many I encounter on this list, I just started writing four years ago. I had little in the way of expectations and hoped that I might sell a couple hundred books and get a few 3-star reviews. The results have exceeded all but my wildest dreams. I'm starting to figure out what I'm doing, how to structure a story, and what people want to buy. Another decade, and I might actually get pretty good at this. In the meantime, I enjoy it, so I'll keep doing it.

Another thing, I'm lucky to have an SO who is supportive. I think a lot of people who don't hit big right out of the gate get a lot of discouragement instead of encouragement from those close to them.


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## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

alawston said:


> "Everyone has one book inside them."
> 
> It's just in some cases they feel they've only got one, and I suspect they balk at the news that they now have to produce another one every month or so in order to tread water in algorithm hell...
> 
> ...


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm running a two-day free promotion on Amazon coordinated with Bknights as I type. Results from my promotions have been modest so far but I've always felt like I'm in a good place. KBoards has been a big part of that. And I've enjoyed every aspect of writing and self-publishing so I think I'll keep doing it.


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## Gone Girl (Mar 7, 2015)

We miss you, Harvey Chute.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I gave up for five years because I sucked. I wanted to tell amazing stories, but my craft wasn't where it needed to be to do that. I just couldn't see a path from where I was to where I wanted to be, and it was heart-breaking. The lack of validation, and seemingly endless work was too much.

That, unfortunately, makes a lot of writers stop writing. I just wish someone had told me that I needed to keep writing, that if I powered through I'd find the success I wanted. I hope a lot of the people we've seen leave the board come back eventually =)


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

Oh, and I really did give up writing previously -- for a quarter of a century! I just ran out of publishers to submit to and went on to other things.


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## Seshenet (May 20, 2015)

Pretty much what everyone else has said and the reasons you've listed.

I've been writing off and on since I was ten. I'm lucky that my family, friends and coworkers are all thrilled I'm taking this journey and are enthusiastically reading the draft of my first novel, pointing out problems, telling me what they like, etc. I'd write anyway even if no one was supportive. It's in my blood. But the advent of publishing to the Kindle motivated me to give it a try. I'll keep writing even if I don't make one sale.


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## Sal Marotta (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't think people give up because they immediately don't achieve fame, money, or positive feedback, although it seems that way. What I think they give up on are the steps they must take to achieve those things.

Just to clarify, I do not think its unreasonable to expect that writing a good work of literature will bring you great success. But it is unreasonable to expect that it will come without a serious amount of effort and self sacrifice. 

I have only published one book, and its doing pretty well now. However, it has required me to make a lot of choices that I feared making. For instance, posting my book on social media was a big step for me. I am a young author, and I was afraid of the reception I might receive. I didn't know how my friends would react, but I did it anyway. I also reached out to a lot of old family and friends asking them to download the book. Ideally, (and I believe this the way a lot of authors think) I would have liked to upload my book and just have it take off without any promotion. 

But you have to promote. Promotion is a grind, and it asks you to sacrifice your ego in order to make something work. If you never expose your book to others, you never risk being judged. Your ego stays preserved behind a little glass window, and you never have to take the risks that will allow you to be successful.

I think this is where most people give up. There are so many people with great work out there that is either collecting dust in their mind or is hidden within the endless sea of books here on Amazon. You have to keep believing that your promotion efforts will pay off and then you will keep grinding. If you give in to the fear of bad judgement or ineffective promotion, you will just give up.

If you have belief, you won't stop until you succeed. Unfortunately the people that gave up, just stopped believing.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I make a good living with my day job. Writing is just something that I've always wanted to do. However, if it gets to be too much because of my small children, I'm willing to take a long break from writing. There's plenty of time to pursue writing again when I'm closer to retirement age. Life happens. Not all of us want writing more than anything else. I'm not willing to give up my family or career for it. If it ever happens that I have to choose between reading or writing, I would happily pick reading. So yeah, I might not be a long timer as a writer, or maybe I will. By pursuing it as a fun hobby that has paid for itself so far, I don't have quite the emotional highs and lows as some other writers, which  is probably good for me at this stage in my life.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

If I give up (although I always come back eventually) it'll be because I don't think I'm good enough.  I could be (but I'm not) the best writer in the world but I suffer majorly from self-doubt, negative talk to myself, etc.  

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Anyway maybe other creatives can relate to this feeling and maybe that's why they quit.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

Funny I have done pretty much the same as you Evenstar - I have searched for authors who bought premade covers from me in past years.  Some have published their books with my covers, have had great success and are still contacting me once in a while for another cover.  But some of my best premade covers ever have never seen the light of day as the authors never published the books they bought them for.  I guess life gets in the way sometimes...


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## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

I am one of the authors who has stopped publishing in the last 1-2 years.

My reasons are basically these:

- burnout on said genre (I still write for fun)
- I had an injury and ended up falling off the wagon for a bit
- having less time in the day than I had before to write. I come home severely exhausted each night, so my output is rather slim (I'd still love to do Nano this year)

Lastly, I suck at marketing. I loathe it. I'd much rather write and not stress over the money I could make and just write for fun. So, I took up working outside the home and have freed my mind of that anxiety of not having enough to make ends meet.

I write for fun and write what I love, which is what I set out to do so many years ago.


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## G. G. Rebimik (Sep 4, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Unrealistic expectations (see sig).


Wise Man. Wise and true....

g.g.


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## Jennifer Lewis (Dec 12, 2013)

Self-publishing makes it so easy to put your first ever magnum opus out there in the world right away, and that is probably not a great experience for a lot of people. Because I started years ago, I wrote TEN WHOLE BOOKS before I finally sold one and by that point I'd climbed a steep learning curve and more or less knew what I was doing. If I'd published my very first attempt, heart fluttering with excitement, and received a few meh to bad reviews then watched it drop like a stone below 1,000,000, the experience might have been more devastating than the encouraging rejection letter I got back then.

Of course if getting 9 books rejected didn't stop me then probably not much else would have either 

The internet really does offer all the information you need to write a book and sell it and find readers. When that doesn't happen people feel like a failure. Or they realize they have to write six of them a year (in a series!) just to get noticed. And be their own PR company. I'm sure there are people who just decide that's not for them.

I doubt I'll quit until I'm ready to retire. If something doesn't work I'll figure out what I did wrong and try again. I'm stubborn like that....


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

The truth is that writing (and publishing) is hard for a variety of reasons and most can't cut it over the long-term.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

Writing is hard, and being a self-published writer is harder still. If you don't feel compelled to write, you should quit and do something else. No shame in that.


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## Miss Bee (Sep 8, 2014)

I started publishing almost two years ago, and although I have not quit, things have gone slower than I would have liked. I have made a small amount of money on my small catalogue and it is disappointing that I haven't done better, but it is all my own fault. I need to write more, publishing more, promote more -- and that can feel overwhelming to a single parent with three kids and a full-time job. I have the ideas (too many!) but I lack much time to write. I recently had a discussion with my oldest daughter (who writes video game dialogue for a living) in which I told her sometimes I think about quitting (publishing), but I know I will never quit writing so why not continue publishing what I write? At least I have something out there -- a body of work to show that I was here. In some form, that writing will always exist, and knowing that makes me feel that I have contributed something to the great wide world of literature. My contribution may be tiny, but it's significant to me and hopefully to those who take the time to read what I have created. I might take a hiatus of a month or a year or even longer, but I won't ever quit writing entirely. It's something I've always done and will always do, and if I make coffee money doing it at least that's better than giving it away as fan fiction


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Because self publishing is really hard!

It took me about a year and s half of writing novels to get to a place where I was making more than coffee money (and that was after many years of screenwriting going nowhere). I almost quit a hundred times. Evey week or two I would ask myself why I worked so hard at writing stuff no one cared about.

There is so much to understand in the art and business of this. I love it but it's the most stressful thing I've ever done. Not everyone is cut out for ruining a business.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I think it's a bit like asking why people quit farming. Obviously you can start writing and publishing without buying a farm, but the fact is it takes a lot of hard work, upkeep, investment, and luck to succeed--and sometimes it's just too darn much.

I'd venture to say most of us have quit writing, publishing, or both at some point in our lives. Maybe multiple times. If you love writing enough, you'll eventually go back to it (one hopes, as it's a wonderful hobby!!). Publishing? Well, I think a person has to see some benefit from it, either money or some other thing, to keep being worth it.

Because publishing (and of course promotion, reading your reviews, etc.,) can be really, really hard.

*R E A L L Y *hard.

Personally, I'm earning money and I have few if any other options right now. Plus, I just love writing. I'm doing the best I can with the publishing and promo things, but I know many other people could do better than I'm doing.

Gotta work with what you got, though.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Jennifer Lewis said:


> Because I started years ago, I wrote TEN WHOLE BOOKS before I finally sold one and by that point I'd climbed a steep learning curve and more or less knew what I was doing.


There's always the infamous 'you've got to write a million words before you're any good!'. I'm almost at that point, and I'm just starting to think I might be getting the hang of writing things people may want to read.

Some, obviously, write their first book and become an overnight success. But most don't. If you tell them upfront they may have to write ten or more novels before they write one people want to read, most aspiring writers will find something else to do with their time. The first book took years, and they were pulling their hair out as they tried to get it done, now they have to write nine more?


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

Three big reasons people quit is because they lack *faith* (I don't mean religious faith), they lack *persistence*, and they lack *patience*.


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.

My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum.  I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.' 


"If I was a real writer, I'd write every spare minute and push on when it's hard. Even when I have the flu/chronic migraines/out of control anxiety. Or my marriage is breaking up/my kids are struggling in school/I'm being evicted. There must be something wrong with me."-->They give up because they burn themselves out pushing too much and then feel like a failure. In reality, some people can write through any personal crisis, most can't. 

"If I was a real writer, I'd publish 4-6-12 books a year. It's taking me too long so there must be something wrong with me." --> Only the outliers started out and/or continue to write and publish fast. Most people build up to it and burnout is still a real possibility for everyone if there isn't a buffer of when to push hard and when to pull back. It doesn't help that most of the info here and other places are geared towards, 'publish frequently or fail.' 

If someone told you from the beginning that if you don't do it XYZ way, you're going to fail, and you discover you can't do XYZ to the same degree, how motivated would you be to keep going? It's human nature to be skittish about failure, more so for perfectionists. 

Anyway.

That's my rant for the day. 

Me? I spent the last year ill. I didn't give up even though it looks like it. I'm regrouping. And on my own terms and time.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

Because it really is a marathon and not a sprint.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Because it really is a marathon and not a sprint.


It's both a marathon AND a sprint, and is therefore hard. That doesn't mean that people who stop are losers, or failures. Or that people who stop for a time can't pick it back up and succeed later on down the road (I quit writing for nearly a decade before picking it back up again).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

SBright said:


> It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.
> 
> My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.'
> 
> ...


I think this is probably very true.


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## Rue Hirsch (May 4, 2014)

ElHawk said:


> I think the world of writers in general (not just on this forum) is full of people who have VERY unrealistic expectations about what it's like to be a writer. Whether it's work, money, ease of breaking out, or expectation of fame, there are SOOO many people who stubbornly believe in one particular fantasy of "being a writer," and reality never lives up to their dreams.


I think this is it, right here. Getting to the place where you're making enough money with writing takes more elbow grease than many are able, or willing, to put forth. And then maybe there are others out there who only had a few stories to tell, published those books, and got out. There's also life that gets in the way and considering that living off writing income is shotty, people must put their financial security first, etc. I've always lived on meager earnings, which is probably why I'm okay with making hardly anything doing this. It's been my dream to publish books since I was a child, so it's a blessing to have the opportunity for doing so now. Writing and publishing is just like any other business where it takes investment and dedication to get somewhere. I suspect many writers out there are doing it more so for the hobby vs the long haul, so they're going to be less inclined to do extra work for something they consider as just fun.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> It's both a marathon AND a sprint, and is therefore hard. That doesn't mean that people who stop are losers, or failures. Or that people who stop for a time can't pick it back up and succeed later on down the road (I quit writing for nearly a decade before picking it back up again).


The sprint analogy implies that the end-point is just a short distance ahead of you. Trouble is, that isn't an end-point, but just another mile marker. If you give everything you've got to achieve it, you'll exhaust yourself and drop out.

The truth is, you're always just trading up problems. It's important to keep running, but it's also important to pace yourself if you're in it for the long game.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Joe Vasicek said:


> The sprint analogy implies that the end-point is just a short distance ahead of you. Trouble is, that isn't an end-point, but just another mile marker. If you give everything you've got to achieve it, you'll exhaust yourself and drop out.
> 
> The truth is, you're always just trading up problems. It's important to keep running, but it's also important to pace yourself if you're in it for the long game.


My point is, if you're trying to define writing and publishing as purely a marathon-like activity (which, let's face it, only takes roughly a few hours in a day to complete so isn't really a good comparison anyhow), then you're not being any more fair to the process.

My feeling and experience tells me that success in publishing comes through short-term actions that also impact long-term consequences.

If I'm working on publishing a few books a month, I have monthly sales goals and perhaps even daily or weekly sales goals. Those goals are very important, and not hitting them isn't really acceptable if I want to hit my yearly goals.

As time marches on, though, you do have to consider things like diversification and balancing the business so that it can sustain itself under different conditions. So there are definitely long-term implications that you would be unwise to ignore.

But the day-to-day, for me, is just as important (both in terms of writing production and sales revenue) as the outlook a year away or two years or five.

I am planning five years out, and starting to undertake actions which will hopefully pay off in three to five years in a big way. But I'm also trying to kick butt right now. Today. And tomorrow.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> Not everyone is cut out for ruining a business.


I'd say *most* people are cut out for ruining a business.

_Running_ a business, on the other hand, is a whole 'nuther ballgame.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

SBright said:


> It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.
> 
> My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.'
> 
> ...


I agree with this. Over the last five years I've had a ton of bad stuff happen. I've written 3 short novels and can't bare to read them much less edit. I don't seem to have the motivation I once had. However, now that I'm over my life can end in the next year (cancer) I'm trying to write something new. I've read every book on plot and writing faster that's probably out there during the past five years. Now just to write and stick with it. BTW~ I've been at this for over 15 years. Let's move forward, again. &#128692;&#127999;


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## Rue Hirsch (May 4, 2014)

Douglas, I wish you plenty of healing and that your writing will provide some form of it. I also agree with S Bright's statements. So many factors can influence people's ability to quit or keep going in this game. Thank you for helping me view this subject in a more compassionate light.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Joe Vasicek said:


> The sprint analogy implies that the end-point is just a short distance ahead of you.


Er, I don't know how much you know about marathons, but they have an end too.

Both analogies are crap.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

gorvnice said:


> The truth is that writing (and publishing) is hard for a variety of reasons and most can't cut it over the long-term.


While I think this is it in a nutshell, I also wonder for how many it's simply a financial decision. So much advice these days centres around getting a professional cover and getting professional editing. Maybe some writers are turned off by the realisation that something they thought was going to be effort-only enterprise won't succeed unless they commit cash they simply don't have? I've often read posts on this board telling people not to publish until they've saved up the money for editing and covers, and maybe those people think, actually, in that case, self-publishing isn't viable for me right now.

But, to be honest, I'm amazed at the amount of people who even finish writing a whole book. I've belonged to a writers group for a few years, and I've found very, very few people who nurse the ambition to write can commit themselves to it.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Abderian said:


> But, to be honest, I'm amazed at the amount of people who even finish writing a whole book. I've belonged to a writers group for a few years, and I've found very, very few people who nurse the ambition to write can commit themselves to it.


For most, ambitions are just dreams.

When I used to build sites to game Google's algos, friends would ask me to show them how to do it. They salivated over the dollars signs and ignored the fact that it took effort (I was going to bed at midnight and rising at 4:00 every morning).

I gave them a blueprint to make more cash than they had ever seen. They chose to watch TV.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Anarchist said:


> For most, ambitions are just dreams.
> 
> When I used to build sites to game Google's algos, friends would ask me to show them how to do it. They salivated over the dollars signs and ignored the fact that it took effort (I was going to bed at midnight and rising at 4:00 every morning).
> 
> I gave them a blueprint to make more cash than they had ever seen. They chose to watch TV.


Sometimes I think you're my gimmick account (or vice versa).


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## Lady Q (Jun 27, 2015)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Yes. Writing a book, publishing it, and retiring to their new estate in Hawaii sounds cool.
> 
> But then, for most of us, writing turns out to be a lot of work, and the millions don't come in as soon as the first book is released. Then we think 'I made $20 on my last book after a thousand hours of work. Why don't I get a part-time job at McDonalds' instead?'


Ouch. That hits home. Just a few weeks ago I told my husband I'd be better off cashiering at the grocery store.

Many of us don't realize that writing is only one piece of the publishing process. Marketing is yet another, and it's a huge one that requires time, research, skill, and experimentation. Often times, we'll spend hours writing and revising and polishing a story, but have no idea how to describe it (blurb), how to categorize it (genre), what its audience is, and how to go about making them aware it even exists. It's like you run a marathon, only to find you have to scale a giant wall before getting to the finish line.

Marketing is daunting and low sales are discouraging. It can be hard to push through.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Sometimes I think you're my gimmick account (or vice versa).


Funny. I was getting the same feeling.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> For most, ambitions are just dreams.
> 
> When I used to build sites to game Google's algos, friends would ask me to show them how to do it. They salivated over the dollars signs and ignored the fact that it took effort (I was going to bed at midnight and rising at 4:00 every morning).
> 
> I gave them a blueprint to make more cash than they had ever seen. They chose to watch TV.


I'd say this pretty much sums up the world...

Unfortunately.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Everybody, raise your hand if you were in a band when you were a kid (raises hand).

Or if you're still in one.

I think you have the same situation there.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Anarchist said:


> For most, ambitions are just dreams.
> 
> When I used to build sites to game Google's algos, friends would ask me to show them how to do it. They salivated over the dollars signs and ignored the fact that it took effort (I was going to bed at midnight and rising at 4:00 every morning).
> 
> I gave them a blueprint to make more cash than they had ever seen. They chose to watch TV.


Maybe it's a now vs. future thing. We're more inclined to go for the immediate reward of TV than the less possible future reward of lots of lovely cash, because the future reward feels less real.

Which is why successful writers talk about writing as an itch they have to scratch. You need that itch to carry you through when the immediate reward isn't forthcoming.


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

My genius, exemplified in my first novel, wasn't recognized by the masses or by the critics. They must all be dumber than I imagined. Their abject failure to award me the Nobel prize for literature renders them unworthy to read any more of my unique talent. I won't waste any more of my time on ignorant readers. It will be their loss, not mine. Those grapes were probably sour anyway. /s


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> A lot of writers...
> 
> 
> don't know how to run a business ("Dang it. Why aren't people buying my books?!")
> ...


Why would those questions/comments in the parentheses lead to writers quitting? Some of them are just good questions to ask while learning the business. Well, maybe not the first one.  But lots of people here ask about the pros and cons of going wide v. KU because it is an important decision and so many here have experience in it; lots of people ask about back matter content because it's important and other people's experiences are important in helping us learn what may or may not work for our own books; why a permafree isn't working can have identifiable causes that some here might be able to help with (e.g., your blurb might attract more attention if you rewrite this line) or how important it is to promote those permafree titles; Facebook ads or whatever the hot trend is &#8230; eh, it's worked for some, so sharing those experiences can also be helpful.

I think people asking questions and soliciting feedback is actually a sign that they WANT to do better than they are currently doing - they are trying to learn and improve their business skills, and that's a good thing! God knows I ALWAYS have questions; I don't post them often because so many others have the exact same questions and I can usually find the answer first.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

HSh said:


> I'd venture to say most of us have quit writing, publishing, or both at some point in our lives. Maybe multiple times. If you love writing enough, you'll eventually go back to it (one hopes, as it's a wonderful hobby!!). Publishing? Well, I think a person has to see some benefit from it, either money or some other thing, to keep being worth it.
> 
> Because publishing (and of course promotion, reading your reviews, etc.,) can be really, really hard.
> 
> *R E A L L Y *hard.


This. I sort of break writing and publishing into two separate entities in my mind. Writing is something I enjoy. It's my world and I get to play. I like people to read what I write and I have developed people who will do that even at the draft stage.

Publishing is something completely different. Publishing can get expensive to do right and is enough work that I like to make some money from it or it isn't worth it. I can imagine there are some decent writers out there who just aren't up for the publishing end of things.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> My feeling and experience tells me that success in publishing comes through short-term actions that also impact long-term consequences.


You have just described a marathon: run in such a way that you can keep running long-term.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Abderian said:


> Maybe it's a now vs. future thing. We're more inclined to go for the immediate reward of TV than the less possible future reward of lots of lovely cash, because the future reward feels less real.


Absolutely. All things being equal, humans always favor current consumption over future consumption. (Economists call that "time preference.")

That's not a value statement. It's neither good nor bad. Just an observation regarding how humans act. 

To don my geek helmet, time preference is influenced by the (perceived) marginal utility of future goods. In the case of writers, those who are comfortable in their current circumstances will tend to refrain from working toward an uncertain future. They will abandon their writing projects if their efforts fail to yield quick results.

There. Instant cure for insomnia, amirite?


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Writing books is not an easy occupation. It can get lonely and frustrating.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Because most writers just want to tell a story (yes, often it's only one) and want it to be loved and famous, and in their hearts they don't really want to deal with having to put it out there (marketing) or having to face people's opinions about it.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Because most writers just want to tell a story (yes, often it's only one) and want it to be loved and famous, and in their hearts they don't really want to deal with having to put it out there (marketing) or having to face people's opinions about it.


This soooo spot on. ^^


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## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

Because for every Russell Blake, there's 10, 20, 100 other people who buckled down, wrote hard, perfected their craft, studied the market, got pro covers, and spent the money and still didn't succeed because most ventures fail. Then they looked back, realized they'd dropped $5K, $10k, or more on a venture that hadn't paid off yet, and hey, the prospect of just stopping the bleeding starts to sound good.

Then you stop and its like a weight off your shoulders and you look around and wonder why you stressed and tried so damn hard just to fail. You wind up looking back on it and wishing you never did it because it was really, really difficult and ultimately pointless, and as awesome as it was to write all those books no one ever read, well, you'd rather have that $10k because your car is about to break down and $10k would sure have helped if you still had it.

But hey, you did everything right. Maybe one more book? Yeah, and maybe 50 more. Maybe you just needed to write 5 million words instead of four. Maybe you just needed to spend $20k instead of ten. You think, okay, maybe, I'll try again. So you get yourself set to try again because you're a fool, and read the posts about people hitting it out of the park on try one. So you read their book and cry to yourself at night and say never again. I won't do this again. 

But you do, you always do, and you wish you didn't, and so you start writing, and you realize you've lost your love of it, and you hate it and yourself, and you ask yourself why? And you realize if you just walked away right now things would be better.

And they are.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

It's easy to make assumptions about why some former forum members no longer frequent kboards, or why some authors apparently have no new books out.  But everything is just that: an assumption.  Some folks here have popped up to say why they took a break for a while or were 'gone' for a few years, but there are probably almost as many valid reasons as there are people who claim them.  For some, maybe writing/publishing isn't what they expected, others may have been discouraged by lack of success (however they perceive success), still more probably found they didn't have time to devote to it, or grew tired of it and moved on to other endeavors.

And the OP wonders why many give up "so fast," when, again, we have no way of knowing how long or short a time any given writer has been at this business, or how many pen-names he/she may have


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> A lot of writers...
> 
> don't know how to run a business ("Dang it. Why aren't people buying my books?!")
> suffer from "shiny object" syndrome ("Ooooooo, Facebook ads!")
> ...


I think a lot of this comes from lack of confidence. People don't want to try perma free unless there's a majority of people saying "do it, do it!". It's the same with anything, and especially with something new. Oh, my gosh, the threads about Select when it first started would turn you gray-headed.

I think self-publishing is still so new that there aren't any static steps. In the old days, you wrote a book, got an agent who shopped it around for you, and maybe got you a contract. Do whatever edits the publisher wanted. Spend a year or two writing the next book. Wash, rinse, repeat.

These days, you write a book, get your best friend's college kid to edit it, and then have to decide what to do with the blasted thing. You have to figure out how to format it so it doesn't look like total crap, scrape up the money for a premade cover, because everybody said the one you did yourself wasn't any good, decide if half a cents per page read is worth going into KU, or if you go wide how you're going to handle all those uploads, and what the heck format do you need for Smashwords, anyway?

Then, you've got to learn about getting ads somewhere, or trying to get somebody to review the book, and how long is it going to take to write the next book, when you've got all this other crap to worry about. And just when you think you've got a handle on it, that you just might make something of all these words you can't help putting down, it all changes and you have to start over.

I don't think it's looking at it negatively, or being down on others, it's just reality. Not everyone is cut out to be a writer, and even less are able to self-publish. Nothing personal, it's just the way it is.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I quit back in the 90's after finding out what expectations should be (traditional publishing). Mostly it was the money, but there was also the control problem when I found out how little control an author actually has after making a publishing deal. Also the time in my life as I was working full time and putting in the equivalent of a second full time job with my horses.

And I'd quit in a heartbeat again today if I didn't think the financial reward was worth the effort put in. I'm a one book a year indie who needs and gets supplemental retirement income. If I were a younger, hard-charger spending 8-12 hours a day at it and putting out a book every 2 months, I'd expect income at Amanda and Russell's level and be discouraged if I didn't get it.

So my guess is there are people who quit over every one of the OP's reasons, combinations of some of them, and a few we haven't thought of, but too much effort for too little reward has to be the big one.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I think a lot of this comes from lack of confidence. People don't want to try perma free unless there's a majority of people saying "do it, do it!". It's the same with anything, and especially with something new.


Very true. Dr. Robert Cialdini referred to that phenomenon as social proof. We look toward others to help us identify appropriate behaviors in any given circumstance.

Here's the problem...

A lot of novices put their faith in whatever veteran self-publishers say because they feel others' experiences serve as bulletproof validation that a particular action/tactic/strategy has universal effectiveness. But, of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

Some people have success with permafree while others flounder with it. Some have great success going wide while others see their income and readership plummet after doing so. Some build their mailing lists on Facebook ads and successfully backend their subscribers into the black while others try it and hemorrhage cash for their efforts.

I'm all for asking questions. That's part of the education process. But a lot of writers seem to have the idea that a strategy that worked for Russell, Wayne, Mark or Amanda is going to automagically work for them too.

That's not necessarily the case. There are a ton of variables that are unknown and unknowable.

Nothing trumps your own data.


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

Is it not also possible some of these writers we think have quit have simply changed their names and made a fresh start? It can often be the wisest choice, both for the creative and business aspects.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

While I'm sure plenty just fade out because they either get discouraged or only had so many books in them, I do know quite a few people who just change names and genres. A lot of break-out "debut" books we see rising the charts aren't by new authors, for example, but old authors in new skins. Just because someone didn't have success with one genre or name doesn't mean they disappeared, they might have just morphed.

Also, life stuff does happen. People might publish regularly for a while and then drop off because of illness or family issues or divorce or new kid or whatever.  I mean, I released four books in six months last year but this year only released one. Why? Illness. Life happens.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

Abderian said:


> Maybe it's a now vs. future thing. We're more inclined to go for the immediate reward of TV than the less possible future reward of lots of lovely cash, because the future reward feels less real.
> 
> Which is why successful writers talk about writing as an itch they have to scratch. You need that itch to carry you through when the immediate reward isn't forthcoming.


Yep, have a co-worker that can't understand why I would give up tv to write. In her mind, it's great that I have readers, but it's not like I'll be the next Steven King.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I've been at this since July 2014, and to date, I've barely crossed the $2500 threshold. I do this because I love it, but I'm a place where I'm about to make one of those "What the heck am I doing wrong?" threads. I don't think people realize how hard this business is. Fortunately, I've had realistic expectations since before I hit publish.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm making more money now than anyone in my immediate family has ever. That doesn't mean I can sit back and eat bonbons and hire pool boys to amuse me while I lie in the sun beside my horizon pool... That's Amanda! 

JK. She's still working hard producing more books in a month than most of us can in a year. 

Even making what I consider outlandish money, I have to think about my next series, about promoting my current series, and about keeping my backlist visible. I have to think about what I do if my next series bombs. The good money right now is wonderful, but I don't believe it will last and so I have to keep working and keep producing more work to feed the audience I have developed.

I know it can all go south really fast, so I can't afford to slack off for too long. Have to crack the old self-flagellation whip!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Annie B said:


> While I'm sure plenty just fade out because they either get discouraged or only had so many books in them, I do know quite a few people who just change names and genres. A lot of break-out "debut" books we see rising the charts aren't by new authors, for example, but old authors in new skins. Just because someone didn't have success with one genre or name doesn't mean they disappeared, they might have just morphed.
> 
> Also, life stuff does happen. People might publish regularly for a while and then drop off because of illness or family issues or divorce or new kid or whatever. I mean, I released four books in six months last year but this year only released one. Why? Illness. Life happens.


This. Completely.

I've been watching a few debut self published authors and they know waaaay too much about marketing, promotion, etc. and seem to be so polished that I suspect they are a new pen name of an already established author.

Hey -- I might try that one day!


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

JACipriano said:


> Because for every Russell Blake, there's 10, 20, 100 other people who buckled down, wrote hard, perfected their craft, studied the market, got pro covers, and spent the money and still didn't succeed because most ventures fail. Then they looked back, realized they'd dropped $5K, $10k, or more on a venture that hadn't paid off yet, and hey, the prospect of just stopping the bleeding starts to sound good.
> 
> Then you stop and its like a weight off your shoulders and you look around and wonder why you stressed and tried so damn hard just to fail. You wind up looking back on it and wishing you never did it because it was really, really difficult and ultimately pointless, and as awesome as it was to write all those books no one ever read, well, you'd rather have that $10k because your car is about to break down and $10k would sure have helped if you still had it.
> 
> ...


{big hug - or manly fist bump}


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I don't know about anyone in specific, but I've watched a lot of authors get disillusioned by the idea that it's not the writing that matters, not nearly as much as the story.

An awful lot of writers I used to workshop with 20 years ago got entirely too uptight about the micro, including me. It wasn't unusual for a critique to consist mostly of usage corrections and things like _would toppled be a better word here than fell?_ Then the workshops 15 years ago were about the same. Ten years ago, I was far past worrying about that (at least, past worrying about it _first_) and went right for the big picture storytelling problems. It did not make me popular. Five years ago, similar problems. An awful lot of amateur writers want to fret over which is the best adverb or do you need a better verb instead when they don't even have a story yet. Storytelling isn't being learned early enough for some reason.

Nothing wrong with micro concerns, it's good to learn eventually, but in the early stages it's as wise as rearranging deck chairs on a ship with a hole in the stern. You can shuffle words and fix errors and beat the story with a thesaurus all day long, but if it's not a good story, nobody will care. On the other hand, in some genres,amateurish writing with basic errors can sell really well if the story appeals to people. Story's the thing.

This idea is hard for some writers to take. And I've watched many become disillusioned, even after they've gotten the story part down, that they spent so much time worrying about the micro and spent years figuring it all out only to have their 6-year masterpiece languish while something filled with its/it's errors and constant "to be" verb constructions (which has been pounded into their heads as a BAD THING) is selling buckets and bowls.

I think this realization is particularly hard for people who tried to trade-publish for years and got only rejections, then thought they'd found their solution in self-pub only to find that their fantastic novel isn't getting attention there, either. For them, it hasn't been fast. It's been slow and agonizing, and their last-ditch effort is a heartbreaker.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Shelley K said:


> I don't know about anyone in specific, but I've watched a lot of authors get disillusioned by the idea that it's not the writing that matters, not nearly as much as the story.
> 
> An awful lot of writers I used to workshop with 20 years ago got entirely too uptight about the micro, including me. It wasn't unusual for a critique to consist mostly of usage corrections and things like _would toppled be a better word here than fell?_ Then the workshops 15 years ago were about the same. Ten years ago, I was far past worrying about that (at least, past worrying about it _first_) and went right for the big picture storytelling problems. It did not make me popular. Five years ago, similar problems. An awful lot of amateur writers want to fret over which is the best adverb or do you need a better verb instead when they don't even have a story yet. Storytelling isn't being learned early enough for some reason.
> 
> ...


So incredibly well said, this should be stickied in every forum, even sports forums, the world over.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> I don't know about anyone in specific, but I've watched a lot of authors get disillusioned by the idea that it's not the writing that matters, not nearly as much as the story.


I think of this every time people complain about the writing in Twilight/50SoG/the trendy book of the month. No matter what we think of it, the story resonated with a whole bunch of people.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Shelley K said:


> An awful lot of writers I used to workshop with 20 years ago got entirely too uptight about the micro, including me. It wasn't unusual for a critique to consist mostly of usage corrections and things like _would toppled be a better word here than fell?_


Doesn't a lot of this come from what's possible in critique groups and workshops? A critique group goes through a novel 10-20 pages at a time, at least all the ones I've heard of do. No one gets a look at the story as a whole, so what's possible to critique is micro-level. A writer can come up with a detailed story summary that sounds good, but executing it is something else.

Micro is also the level easiest to focus on and control. In his posts on _Stages of Writers_, Dean Wesley Smith said, "Stage one writers believe fiction writing is sentences and grammar and punctuation. * * * That simple. The focus is sentence-by-sentence only." (DWS haters, don't waste time jumping down my throat. I'm not an avid acolyte, but I have learned a thing or two from him and do appreciate him.)

We see the same thing here at KBoards IMO. Someone posts they aren't doing well and asks for help. They get a lot of critiquing of their cover and blurb. One or more persons may go read their sample or a few pages and post, "Don't worry, you're a good writer," but to know if someone is a good _storyteller_, you have to read a lot more. Cover and blurb may provoke interest, but unless the rest of the world's readers are very different from me, that's all they do. Next comes whether the writing is good enough, which means the first pages, and last comes whether the story is good enough, which means reading either the whole thing (answer: yes) or until the answer is obviously no.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

ellenoc said:


> Doesn't a lot of this come from what's possible in critique groups and workshops? A critique group goes through a novel 10-20 pages at a time, at least all the ones I've heard of do. No one gets a look at the story as a whole, so what's possible to critique is micro-level. A writer can come up with a detailed story summary that sounds good, but executing it is something else.
> 
> Micro is also the level easiest to focus on and control. In his posts on _Stages of Writers_, Dean Wesley Smith said, "Stage one writers believe fiction writing is sentences and grammar and punctuation. * * * That simple. The focus is sentence-by-sentence only." (DWS haters, don't waste time jumping down my throat. I'm not an avid acolyte, but I have learned a thing or two from him and do appreciate him.)


I agree. In the beginning, it makes sense that the micro is the focus unless you're lucky enough to have some advanced writers in your group who get you focusing on the bigger picture. But an awful lot of writers never really make the jump from worrying about sentences to worrying about story.

And I agree it's not easy to critique an entire long work in pieces--we used to do 3 chapters at a time because it's easier to get the plot threads--but I can usually read the opening of something, whether a few scenes or a whole chapter, and tell whether the writer has story sense. The most common recommendation I ever gave about first scenes/chapters was to cut them. So, so common. In a beginner workshop, the most unnecessary and boring first chapter would be grammar-checked as if it would matter, because most people there have no idea what story is, either. Okay for beginners, but people get hung up on that for some reason.

I started out writing short fiction, so n a workshop setting the whole story was in front of you. The same storytelling problems persisted, usually with the same writers, for years. I think the words are the easiest part of writing (at least writing popular fiction--literary is a different animal). The storytelling is a lot harder for many people to grasp, but a lot of them really persist with the idea that it's the right adjective or turn of phrase that's going to make their fiction great. I guess a lot more writers than I ever expected never get past Stage 1.


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## G. G. Rebimik (Sep 4, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> A lot of writers...
> 
> 
> don't know how to run a business ("Dang it. Why aren't people buying my books?!")
> ...


Very well said....and thanks for saying it so well...

g.g.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

SBright said:


> It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.
> 
> My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.'
> 
> ...


It may be a rant, but it's a terrific one.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> I've seen lots of writers on here over the past couple of years who are not here now. Just looking over some old posts and I remember quite a few names. So I did a very quick check on a few of them to see if they were still publishing and most were not. Perhaps they started new pen names, or maybe they are still writing and are working on something epic. But I suspect a lot of them have simply given up on publishing. And I'm wondering why.
> 
> Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away?
> Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality?
> ...


The questions all imply failure or quitting as the reasons, which may be true for some, but it could just as easily be that some people have outgrown this site, moved on or don't have time to interact. As useful and enjoyable as this board is, it's just one of many similar groups on the internet. I tend to stick with a board for a while until I get bored and then find somewhere else to procrastinate. But I haven't reached that point here yet


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## CASD57 (May 3, 2014)

This may be wrong, but I write for the story, I write because I like the expression I can put across.
I work hard at the craft..I read everything about everything writing...I have posties of our 5 senses..to remind myself of what my character is feeling-smelling-seeing-tasting-hearing.. I try to improve my pose with each book, I'm my own worse critic
I write for the story and if I tell the story well enough they will following willingly.... If I don't...then I write for myself... either way I'm happy


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

SBright said:


> It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.
> 
> My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.'
> 
> ...


<3 <3 <3


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

SBright said:


> It's easy to assign negative character flaws to why people give up, instead of considering more likely factors that would influence it. Unrealistic expectations is one thing, but believing everyone gives up because they didn't get the cash they wanted or writing is tooooo hard is unfair.
> 
> My theory is the good writers became paralyzed by perfectionism and decided they couldn't live up to the current standards of self-publishing. It's the 'something must be wrong with me,' paradox. The unrealistic expectations but they didn't happen in a vacuum. I'm talking the fairy tale of 'If you work hard, all your dreams will come true," with the implied addendum of, 'If they don't, you're a lazy slacker and did something wrong.'
> 
> ...


I like this rant, well said


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## 666 (Oct 15, 2015)

mica said:


> I like this rant, well said


 love this attitude


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Sounds good, except people have been quitting writing far longer than self-publishing or self-publishing outliers and cheerleaders existed.

Writers quit for all kinds of reasons, and saying writing is hard is not an insult to those who quit.  It's just true.


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## 666 (Oct 15, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> I've seen lots of writers on here over the past couple of years who are not here now. Just looking over some old posts and I remember quite a few names. So I did a very quick check on a few of them to see if they were still publishing and most were not. Perhaps they started new pen names, or maybe they are still writing and are working on something epic. But I suspect a lot of them have simply given up on publishing. And I'm wondering why.
> 
> Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away?
> Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality?
> ...


I think it's very hard for people with full time jobs and families to keep going...I guess at some point they think that there's a lot of important 'real life stuff' going on in their lives which needs sorting. They probably think they will come back to it, but life happens...


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

SteveHarrison said:


> The questions all imply failure or quitting as the reasons, which may be true for some, but it could just as easily be that some people have outgrown this site, moved on or don't have time to interact. As useful and enjoyable as this board is, it's just one of many similar groups on the internet. I tend to stick with a board for a while until I get bored and then find somewhere else to procrastinate. But I haven't reached that point here yet


Agree. I've said this before, none of the authors I read on a regular basis are on kboards or any other forum I can find (unless they are posting under another name). The authors I read are on facebook or twitter or post on their websites.

I discovered one new author on here, Tess Oliver. She doesn't seem to post that much. I've purchased some of her books recently.

There are all sorts of reasons why some author is not posting on here anymore. And why it seems that some author has stopped publishing, maybe they are writing under a new pen name. I honestly just discovered that a NA romance author is writing erom under another pen name. Some authors are too busy, don't feel in the mood to interact on a forum like kboards or they are very private. I find forums like this to be useful to get information about self-publishing or to share your experience and encourage others, to make friends sometimes but it can be a time suck, so I don't want to spend too much time on here or any other forum.

Some authors might not have achieved the goals they set for themselves but not every author gives up. I meet so many people who love writing and would never give it up but they are trying something a little different, they might have had to go and get a day job because they aren't earning enough so it gives them less time to write, some authors have had a new baby or they got married or moved across the country or they are travelling around the world and are taking a break. Some are writing under a new pen name, some authors are exhausted and taking longer to write their next book and some are writing in a new genre.

If some of those authors came on here and left a comment, I bet there would be dozens of different reasons why.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Shelley K said:


> I agree. In the beginning, it makes sense that the micro is the focus unless you're lucky enough to have some advanced writers in your group who get you focusing on the bigger picture. But an awful lot of writers never really make the jump from worrying about sentences to worrying about story.
> 
> And I agree it's not easy to critique an entire long work in pieces--we used to do 3 chapters at a time because it's easier to get the plot threads--but I can usually read the opening of something, whether a few scenes or a whole chapter, and tell whether the writer has story sense. The most common recommendation I ever gave about first scenes/chapters was to cut them. So, so common. In a beginner workshop, the most unnecessary and boring first chapter would be grammar-checked as if it would matter, because most people there have no idea what story is, either. Okay for beginners, but people get hung up on that for some reason.
> 
> I started out writing short fiction, so n a workshop setting the whole story was in front of you. The same storytelling problems persisted, usually with the same writers, for years. I think the words are the easiest part of writing (at least writing popular fiction--literary is a different animal). The storytelling is a lot harder for many people to grasp, but a lot of them really persist with the idea that it's the right adjective or turn of phrase that's going to make their fiction great. I guess a lot more writers than I ever expected never get past Stage 1.


I think the reason many new writers focus intensely on the wordcraft is because that's what we're taught to do at school and university. We dissect the classics, many of which were written at a time when a wordier style was popular, or are actually almost entirely inaccessible to the average reader. We don't study much of the writing that earns most writers a living wage - genre writing. We rarely learn what makes a good story. So when most writers start out they're trying to be next Hemingway or whoever, because that's what they've been taught to aspire to, whether or not it will pay the bills.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Assuming that the authors who leave actually _do_ quit, and don't just go elsewhere or get too busy or write under a pen name, I suspect that they give up for two main reasons:

1. It's hard to write a good book -- an by _good_ I mean a book with a compelling story that has an audience. It's hard to write a _book_ period, but writing a book that will actually sell is a whole other thing.

2. Even if you have a book that is good, with a compelling story and an audience, it's hard to get and keep a book visible. It's not intuitive. It's a skill and requires knowledge of the publishing system and marketing.

Back when the only route to publication was via the legacy publishers -- or true vanity publishers who basically milked you of money and left you with a truckload full of books you couldn't give away -- only a select few hopeful authors were successful and got an agent, sold a book, and made an advance or living. The vast vast majority of aspiring authors never got an acceptance letter or book contract. Now, with self publishing as a viable alternative -- even the preferred choice for some genres -- there is another option, but even so, only a select few hopeful self published authors are successful, get book sales in enough volume to pay bills or make a living. As Author Earnings show, most self published authors do not sell very many books. They may get discouraged and give up because while it is easy to upload a manuscript and press publish, that is where the easy part stops.

The truth is that now, anyone can publish, but not everyone will be read. That's down to a number of reasons, which have to do with quality and visibility. There are some books that just should not have been published. They weren't ready, were poorly written / edited / formatted. They didn't have a story that resonated.

Some books COULD sell, but they lack a cover that draws attention or metadata that garners algorithm love or a promotional push that gets eyeballs and early reviews. Writing a good book isn't enough in this brave new world of self publishing. You need to know how to get your book visible and in front of appropriate readers. Without that knowledge, a good book with a potential audience can fall between the cracks. The author might give up because they have no idea what to do after they hit publish.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Let's turn things around:

I know for myself that I will *not* give up until I no longer enjoy it.

Also, when you go out in the big, wide world, you realise the staggering numbers of people still trying to self-publish using REALLY BAD advice. Like, vanity publishers.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sela said:


> Assuming that the authors who leave actually _do_ quit, and don't just go elsewhere or get too busy or write under a pen name, I suspect that they give up for two main reasons:
> 
> 1. It's hard to write a good book -- an by _good_ I mean a book with a compelling story that has an audience. It's hard to write a _book_ period, but writing a book that will actually sell is a whole other thing.
> 
> ...


All of this.

I'll point out, too, that just writing a good book in the old or trad world wasn't enough either. Plenty of authors with good books didn't get deals for multiple reasons. Plenty of authors who did get deals faded out after book one or two due to things like sales, burn-out, life stuff etc. The floor of publishing is littered with want-to-be and used-to-be authors, and always has been. Self-publishing isn't really so different.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

Just because someone stops posting here doesn't mean they have stopped writing, but I get the original poster's intended question.

A year ago my job and personal situation allowed me lots of time to write. I wrote three books in 6 months - 480,000 words.  Since then I've almost completed one more and have only another week for an unrelated travel book to be finished. 

My new job only leaves me a few hours a week to write, but I still bang away at it. 

I don't have much extra time to engage here though...


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Back in the 1980s, Eddie Van Halen was interviewed by Mark & Brian, hosts of a popular radio program in Southern California. They asked him what it takes to make a living as a rock musician. Specifically, they wanted to know how skilled someone needed to be on the guitar to make it big in the rock business. 

At the time, every long-haired teen wanted to be Eddie (I was one of them).

He told them, "There are 15-year-olds sitting in their bedrooms who can play the guitar much better than me. But they'll never make records or become famous. Why? Because they have no idea what it takes to be a musician."

The same can be said of writers who want to be selling authors.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Abderian said:


> I think the reason many new writers focus intensely on the wordcraft is because that's what we're taught to do at school and university. We dissect the classics, many of which were written at a time when a wordier style was popular, or are actually almost entirely inaccessible to the average reader. We don't study much of the writing that earns most writers a living wage - genre writing. We rarely learn what makes a good story. So when most writers start out they're trying to be next Hemingway or whoever, because that's what they've been taught to aspire to, whether or not it will pay the bills.


True...and it's worse than that, even. In universities all over America, creative writing programs teach that "plot is dead" and that there is good writing (language-oriented) and bad writing (story-oriented). There is endless elitist sniffing at commercial fiction. Meanwhile, the people who put down actual cash for books (to read, not to leave casually on the coffee table to make a statement about their own quality to visitors) want to be told a story.

Reading this thread has reminded me, not for the first time, how lucky I've been this past six months. I don't love the business end of this and studying possible promotion methods is about as exciting to me as eating mud, and yet with my inept and confused efforts, I've sold books anyway. Maybe the Muses finally have taken pity on me after decades of struggle with mixed success at traditional publishing. Whatever, I count my lucky stars every day.

I've quit writing for publication before, but I never quit writing. So my assumption (hope) is that some of the missing might be doing that, too. If they love writing, I hope they continue it for its own sake, that neither the brick wall of agents (which I knocked my own head until I was drained of hope, so I have deep sympathy) nor the real possibility of lack of success at self-publishing (yes, even for good books and smart writers) has tainted their love for the craft. As my Pop used to quote, "there but for the grace of God go I." That'd be sadder to me than their absence from kboards, if in trying to turn something they loved into a job, the love died.


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## Covervault (Mark) (Sep 29, 2015)

As for why people leave the forums, I'm not sure. But giving up on your craft is another. Lack of passion I believe. I always say, don't follow the money follow the vision— The money will come later. If you wouldn't want to do it for free, then I would move on.


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## Covervault (Mark) (Sep 29, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> Let's turn things around:
> 
> I know for myself that I will *not* give up until I no longer enjoy it.
> 
> Also, when you go out in the big, wide world, you realise the staggering numbers of people still trying to self-publish using REALLY BAD advice. Like, vanity publishers.


Love your book banner Patty!


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

PLENTY of highly successful authors have tried to help. The people who disappeared don't want help. They want an 12-step program to riches and there isn't one. The authors who have tried repeatedly to help often get shot down and are usually called "outliers" and their advice dismissed. It only takes so many times of that before they abandon a forum and go elsewhere where they can actually make a difference.


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

johnkellyjr said:


> Help, don't just sit there and wonder. My question to the OP is: How many of those writers that you saw disappear did you try to help?


The OP, Stella (Evenstar), is one of the most helpful people on this forum over a long period of time. She is always willing to share what she knows and I would hazard a guess that a large number of people have benefitted from her assistance. I know I have.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Jill Nojack said:


> The OP, Stella (Evenstar), is one of the most helpful people on this forum over a long period of time. She is always willing to share what she knows and I would hazard a guess that a large number of people have benefitted from her assistance. I know I have.


Yep, me too. She's ace.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

johnkellyjr, there are successful authors on this forum who do offer advice and help. The bickering … you'll notice it tends to involve the same profiles. Just ignore it. There's even an ignore feature you can use to make sure it doesn't bother you. Read the helpful posts and when you have a question, post it. The search function doesn't always work well, although Google may pull up the thread you need by typing in your keywords plus kboards. 

People will quote and comment "This" or "Agree" because the board doesn't have a like button or something similar. It's just one way of showing someone else's post resonated with us. 

I think if you post with specific questions, you will get answers - they may not be the answers you wanted, but you'll get honest answers. Granted, it would be great if everyone employed a hefty dose of tact when responding, but we can't control how people interact on the Internet. I get it: an actual SUPPORT group for indie authors where everyone is just offering pats on the back and virtual hugs and words of encouragement can go a long way in helping morale for those of us who are just starting out. But this isn't that kind of board - it's a board for independent writers/publishers. If a such a support group exists, then perhaps someone can chime in. I think both kinds of groups have their places and uses


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> Let's turn things around:
> 
> I know for myself that I will *not* give up until I no longer enjoy it.


THIS


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Do you think that they put it on hold until they were in a better place to manage it? (with x amount in the bank to support the costs involved?)


*This one definitely applies to me.

Best Regards,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.*


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Dying is easy, comedy is hard, and writing is even harder.


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## Christopher Holliday (Oct 16, 2015)

brkingsolver said:


> Obviously self-pub has brought millions of people out of the woodwork. Many of them either don't have the skills to tell a story or the skills to write, or both. When their books don't sell, they give up. Others only had one or two ideas and once they wrote them, they lost interest.


I totally agree. Years ago, the process was write, submit, receive rejection, hone your craft, repeat. Write, submit, receive rejection, eventually start receiving positive feedback on rejections, then requests for more work, then sales and publication. It was a merit based process that forced writers to hone their craft, participate in critique groups, and develop a support group of other writers as they moved toward a writing career.

At that time several editors told me that 95% of what they received in the slush pile was not publishable and that issues like manuscript formatting or spelling errors and typos got them tossed to the circular file in the first paragraph. Writers submitting solid stories were only competing with that remaining 5%.

Now, many just shortcut the process and self-publish and can't understand why their work doesn't jump to the bestseller list. ( I have much respect for those who do! ) I think many may be writing for the hope of fame and fortune, not necessarily out of a love for the craft of writing or simply storytelling.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

I have a few theories on this.  Apologies in advance for rambling.  

There are a lot of "hobbyist authors." I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily.  It is what it is, though.  They're the type of people that say "I've got a book in me" or "I've written a book." But, that's all they've written, and they never return to it.  They're successful in their other career, or other lifestyle and writing is just something they've dabbled in.  I know more people like that IRL than online though. For instance, my cousin is writing "a book." 

As far as this board goes, some (maybe a lot) still write but don't come here any more because of hurt feelings, constant salary comparisons, or the old "indie vs. trad" arguments (that really don't occur on this board as of late).

There are also some people who don't have the fire in the gut for this line of work.  I'm a lifer.  I'm never giving up writing, and I am in this for the long haul.  I'm constantly working to improve my craft, my covers, hire better editors than the people I bartered with at the beginning, reinvest my earnings, etc. 

I have taken breaks from this board from time to time (usually because I've forgotten my password   ). However, I always return, because I get better advice here than from other places.  Also, this is the best place for camaraderie amongst authors.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Christopher Holliday said:


> At that time several editors told me that 95% of what they received in the slush pile was not publishable and that issues like manuscript formatting or spelling errors and typos got them tossed to the circular file in the first paragraph. Writers submitting solid stories were only competing with that remaining 5%.


While I've heard that, too, I've edited a magazine and that was not my experience. (However, I've looked at plenty of self-published books that had serious problems of that nature on page 1 or in the blurb). Our magazine received mostly competent work. But it was still easy to reject by the end of page 1 because there was just no hook, or the topic was so cliche we didn't want to read on. I don't think I once saw an unprofessional cover letter.

I'm not saying the awful submissions don't exist, but I always feel a need to raise my hand and say "not in my experience" when I hear this oft-repeated claim. Were we oddly lucky? Maybe. About 2/3 of the slots in our magazine went to name writers. The slush pile author was competing for very few available pages. The reason for rejection (as opposed to whatever bland thing the rejection form said) was usually "It's competent, but it just didn't thrill us."


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

People stop writing for many reasons. Most, I imagine, stop when they realize they're just not very good at it - at least not good enough to make a living. It happens with musicians, athletes, artists, as well as more traditional professions. Not everyone is cut out for it. That is not to say they don't enjoy writing, but it's a large number of hours to dedicate to a hobby which will never bear fruit. So they quit and move on to something else. 
Some who have the talent, lack the ability to learn from others. They think they already know everything, so ignore any advice that contradicts their pre-existing viewpoint. They simply want accolades. They love when they are told that their on the right track, but if they hear anything else it's taken as an insult or a personal attack.
Many writers simply give up on public forums. When they answer questions honestly, only a very few want to believe what is said. There is a huge difference between talking about being a writer and actually doing what it takes to become one. When a writer who has put his or her best efforts at helping others get shouted down and marginalized, they eventually stop posting and move to other forums. If you haven't noticed most of the top indies don't post much anymore. They have started smaller groups where they are not attacked and can exchange ideas and experiences without being made to feel unwelcome. 
But hey...what do I know anyway? Nuttin' I suppose.


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

This_Way_Down said:


> People stop writing for many reasons. Most, I imagine, stop when they realize they're just not very good at it - at least not good enough to make a living. It happens with musicians, athletes, artists, as well as more traditional professions. Not everyone is cut out for it. That is not to say they don't enjoy writing, but it's a large number of hours to dedicate to a hobby which will never bear fruit. So they quit and move on to something else.
> Some who have the talent, lack the ability to learn from others. They think they already know everything, so ignore any advice that contradicts their pre-existing viewpoint. They simply want accolades. They love when they are told that their on the right track, but if they hear anything else it's taken as an insult or a personal attack.
> Many writers simply give up on public forums. When they answer questions honestly, only a very few want to believe what is said. There is a huge difference between talking about being a writer and actually doing what it takes to become one. *When a writer who has put his or her best efforts at helping others get shouted down and marginalized, they eventually stop posting and move to other forums. f you haven't noticed most of the top indies don't post much anymore. They have started smaller groups where they are not attacked and can exchange ideas and experiences without being made to feel unwelcome. *
> But hey...what do I know anyway? Nuttin' I suppose.


That has been mentioned a few times. I wish some of those top authors were still here. I love hearing success stories and stories about the journey people took to get to where they are (a writer making a good living doing something they enjoy), especially romance authors since I write romance. 
I've listened/read a few interviews where authors mentioned why they left kboards and most of these authors don't seem to move on to another forum, they are more active on their own website/blog, on twitter or facebook or they are just busy writing and keeping a lower profile.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

mica said:


> I've listened/read a few interviews where authors mentioned why they left kboards and most of these authors don't seem to move on to another forum, they are more active on their own website/blog, on twitter or facebook or they are just busy writing and keeping a lower profile.


Trust me, they are on other forums. I see all the big names daily, except Hugh, who is busy sailing the world.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

There is a lot of truth in that. And I wish some of the big names would visit more. Although I suspect it is more a matter of time than anything. They may move on to venues that are more conducive to chatting with folks who will help the bottom line (if you know what I mean). There are a lot of balls to keep juggling these days and time is always an issue.

But, as someone who has been through the mill for close to 20 years with this writing thing, I can tell you a lot of reasons why I have considered quitting, although I never did quit, and I doubt I ever will.

1) The constant battering you take as a writer. Criticism, even criticism meant to be helpful, can take its toll. Back when I started, it was the "Not quite good enough," "Not quite what we're looking for," and dealing with the meant-to-be-helpful criticism of crit partners that was really demoralizing. There are so many disappointments, so many rejections, so much angst about whether your writing is truly good enough. And it really burns when your help your crit partners to get trad contracts then, they "forget/cut you off" when you don't break in as fast. (You may even get multiple agents, as I did, but still...locked out of the big markets and watching all my crit partners move on.)

2) If you go indie (I'm a hybrid, but that's another story), you start to realize it's not all sunshine and roses down that road, either. You pay for edits, struggle to get good covers, write blurbs, try to stay on top of the market, and market like a crazy person, and that's still not always enough to guarantee a decent ROI. Or any ROI. It's a lot of work. Some people who have day jobs may find they can't meet all the demands and still have a family life.

3) It's overwhelming because it's a real job. 'nuff said there.

4) It may just not make sense to continue economically. You may be putting more money into your books than you are getting in sales. Just because you put out a quality product (and pay through the nose to do so) doesn't mean it will sell, as I'm sure everyone knows.

Writing is a rough game. There are no guarantees, no matter how hard you try. Some people are just never in the right place at the right time. No award for just showing up.

But when I want to quit, I drop out of sight and just do the one thing I can do and control, and that is: just write. Eventually, the writing will bring me back to the point where I can start to interact on FB and here, do the promo work needed, and address all the other tasks. Sometimes it takes months of just writing to reach the point where I can tackle those things. But if I didn't do that, if I didn't just go back to writing and block all the other voices and demands, it would be very easy to quit. So I can totally understand why people quit.



xandy3 said:


> I have a few theories on this. Apologies in advance for rambling.
> 
> There are a lot of "hobbyist authors." I don't think that's a bad thing. They're the type of people that say "I've got a book in me" or "I've written a book." But, that's all they've written, and they never return to it. They're successful in their other career, or other lifestyle and writing is just something they've dabbled in. I know more people like that IRL than online though. For instance, my cousin is writing "a book."
> 
> ...


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

Could be anything. There are a lot of unrealistic expectations, especially if someone is just jumping into writing and taking that occasional hobby and hoping to hit it big because they heard about some indies making big money with Kindle and Amazon.

I've been writing novels in notebooks since elementary school and did essay/short story contests all through school. I got to work as a freelancer for local papers and do film review for a living, all the while still writing novels that I never had any intention of publishing. Writing for me has always been a given, a passion, something I'm happy to do for free. Sending out a manuscript and getting my first publishing contract was just a bonus. When I sent my third novel out and couldn't find a publisher I just self published it. Now I have a contract for my fourth and fifth novels. I mean, it comes and goes. Some days the money is great and some days it's...meh. But, since I don't do it for the money, I keep on keeping on and am not discouraged.

Long story short, it comes down to the motive. For me, it's love of the game.


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Trust me, they are on other forums. I see all the big names daily, except Hugh, who is busy sailing the world.


I haven't found the authors I've read/listened to on other forums. The only place I see some of these authors commenting is on passive voice. As I said above, I cannot find any of the romance authors I read on any of the forums I've found. Maybe they are not commenting under their author name.


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## devalong (Aug 28, 2014)

Oh 'ell I know why people leave. You squeeze in a few minutes of writing time between diaper changs and crazy EDJ hours. You dream up a story you want to tell and manage to type it down. You spend precious months and treasure going over it with proofreaders and editors and covers. Then bang you finally publish it and someone finds a too that should be a to and slams you with a one star and a rant about how horrible it all is.

I _know_ why people run screaming for the hills, I'm amazed at how many don't .


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

mica said:


> I haven't found the authors I've read/listened to on other forums. The only place I see some of these authors commenting is on passive voice. As I said above, I cannot find any of the romance authors I read on any of the forums I've found. Maybe they are not commenting under their author name.


Who are you looking for - HM Ward, Elle Casey, Jasinda Wilder, Liliana Hart? I see all of them and more. If you can tell me who you would like to find, I might be able to direct you to the forum(s) they visit.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I started out in 2011 and gave up fast. I didn't even know about Kboards. I sold like 8 copies the whole year and two of them were bought by friends. I didn't stop writing, I should add. I just stopped publishing. Early 2014 I decided to give it another shot. I still couldn't sell, not even erotica. It turns out those keywords and covers and promotions are important. Once I found Kboards and learned a few things about that I did much better. When you don't know what you're doing wrong it starts to feel like a pipe dream that can't happen for you. Like winning the lottery. Once you learn there are things you can do to help sales it starts to seem more doable. It's kind of like for a long time I was convinced I'd never sell on other sites, only on Amazon with the help of KU. But my sales are seriously growing on other sites every week, so now I have no doubt I can do well on those sites, but at first it seemed impossible.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

How about more confessions about how things are not as easy or smooth as they seem? I have posted a few times about when I just want to hide under a rock, or when I feel overwhelmed and have to sort out the negative noise that my brain is hyperfocusing on instead of the wonderful positivity around me. And people seem to really appreciate that. I go through massive amounts of Mommyguilt, like when I left for my first ever reader conference this month the DAY my youngest was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, or when I tell my kids "just watch a movie, I need to finish this chapter!" If you don't have spaces where you can confess to some of the not so great things about going after success, it's easy to talk yourself into quitting for the sake of something else, even if that's an artificial thing. My daughter did not change one iota from who she has been for 6 years of life because a doctor finally put a label on it. She was FINE with my husband, her father, for six days while I traveled, and even talked to me on the phone to tell me she was proud of me and hopes everyone loved my books (that she helped me sort). 

If I ever write a memoir about being a military wife and mother of a special needs child and stepmother and also a full-time writer, I'm calling it "Breakfast for Dinner."  My Mom did the same kind of stuff, juggled everything when my Dad was out to sea, and you know what, as a kid and now grown up some of my BEST memories are when we had breakfast for dinner because Mom was too spent to cook.   

People quit because they didn't have support to push them to keep going. Sometimes that's internal support, but we all need extrenal support, too. And I know, I took 3 years off from publishing between Cancelled and The Trouble With Horses.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> How about more confessions about how things are not as easy or smooth as they seem? I have posted a few times about when I just want to hide under a rock, or when I feel overwhelmed and have to sort out the negative noise that my brain is hyperfocusing on instead of the wonderful positivity around me. And people seem to really appreciate that. I go through massive amounts of Mommyguilt, like when I left for my first ever reader conference this month the DAY my youngest was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, or when I tell my kids "just watch a movie, I need to finish this chapter!" If you don't have spaces where you can confess to some of the not so great things about going after success, it's easy to talk yourself into quitting for the sake of something else, even if that's an artificial thing. My daughter did not change one iota from who she has been for 6 years of life because a doctor finally put a label on it. She was FINE with my husband, her father, for six days while I traveled, and even talked to me on the phone to tell me she was proud of me and hopes everyone loved my books (that she helped me sort).
> 
> If I ever write a memoir about being a military wife and mother of a special needs child and stepmother and also a full-time writer, I'm calling it "Breakfast for Dinner."  My Mom did the same kind of stuff, juggled everything when my Dad was out to sea, and you know what, as a kid and now grown up some of my BEST memories are when we had breakfast for dinner because Mom was too spent to cook.
> 
> People quit because they didn't have support to push them to keep going. Sometimes that's internal support, but we all need extrenal support, too. And I know, I took 3 years off from publishing between Cancelled and The Trouble With Horses.


That's why I quit for three years. I didn't have a lot of writer friends and the people in my life treated my writing career like a phase or pathetic fantasy I'd get over eventually. Now I tell them I make enough to cover rent and have even had a four figure month and they want to know how to get started.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> People quit because they didn't have support to push them to keep going. Sometimes that's internal support, but we all need extrenal support, too. And I know, I took 3 years off from publishing between Cancelled and The Trouble With Horses.


This is a good point, EAW. For many years I didn't have good support and it was very difficult. I quit for about a decade.

When I met my wife, she gave me a lot of that support and belief that helped me find a way to rekindle the fire and believe too. Would've been completely impossible for me to do what I've done and be able to now write full-time without her support.

So that IS a huge reason why some end up quitting. And it's also a huge thing that makes writing so tough. Getting support is extremely difficult, unfortunately...


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

I love the posts about the challenges, the struggles, the screw-ups because I learn so much and I'm much more rational about trying to write for a living at the end of the day. Without those posts, it's easy to get the idea the writer is a failure because the book is. Not so. We don't know what's around the corner.


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## NanSweet (Apr 14, 2015)

I think a lot of people see writing as an "easy road to riches".  When the first or second books come out and only sell a dozen or a hundred copies, then the reality that this is a truly uphill climb sinks in.  Some would rather have free time than roll the dice on a maybe.


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## Lady Q (Jun 27, 2015)

Count me in the group of people who quit writing for a number of years. I had people who supported me, but I was totally burned out (not only writingwise, but in other areas also). Yet I returned to it. Some days I feel bad about the time I "wasted", but that's water under the bridge now. At least I learned a number of things about myself from the experience.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I would say that it's difficult to continue with anything if you are not getting rewards. Really, maybe the question is more, "Why do so many people write and continue writing, when most books don't make much money?" That includes tradpubbed books. When I first published a few years ago, I read that something like 85% of first romance novels didn't earn out their advances--typically $5,000. Which meant that the author wasn't offered a second contract. Those are sobering numbers. And yet authors still write, and publish, and continue writing and publishing. I'd guess it's because they want to, really. And perhaps many people who "give up" actually just give up on the sometimes-heartbreaking publishing part. Perhaps they are still writing--because they enjoy that part.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Who are you looking for - HM Ward, Elle Casey, Jasinda Wilder, Liliana Hart? I see all of them and more. If you can tell me who you would like to find, I might be able to direct you to the forum(s) they visit.


The authors I read: Jasinda Wilder, Christina Lauren, Shay Savage, Tess Oliver (who I know is on here), Whitney G (Reasonable doubt author), Colleen Hoover, Kendall Ryan, R.K. Lilley, Georgia Le Carre, K.A. Tucker, Alessandra Torre, Shanora Williams, JJ Knight, Tracy Garvis Graves, Tarryn Fisher, Penelope Ward, Helen Cooper, Katy Evans, Krista & Becca Ritchie and Deborah Bladon.

Don't want to derail the thread or get in trouble with mods for listing other forums, so you can pm me. Thanks.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

ebbrown said:


> You become a king of multitasking. But it drains you. I could not have kept that up for much longer. So I can see how many, many writers, would give up the dream.


You know, I think you are the first one to state that. I've heard a lot of advice about using every spare moment you have to follow your business dreams (some of the advice came from business books, not just writing forums or posts). They say it is worth the sacrifice.

I do agree with that.

But I also believe that kind of workload has to have an end, too, or you wear yourself out.

I've been trying to make better use of my spare moments, and not always succeeding, but still trying. Anyway, I've been at it for only this month, and I find it tiring already! (Having ADD doesn't help.) Some of it is leaking over to my writing, making me rush too much, probably because the end of the first draft is in sight and I'm plateauing on my eagerness over it now. I'm still going to push on, but I think your point is very important to keep in mind, so we can try to alleviate the draining if we aren't to the point of financial independence.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

vanstry said:


> Because they're not writers.
> 
> They either thought it would be 'cool' to have a book out there, or they were on some 'get rich quick' scheme. They were just hobbyists here for a lark.


For some, yes. For ones like me who launched a few years ago and barely put out anything, it wasn't either point. This is the only "job" I feel competent at doing, yet I also am riddled with doubts.

But things are changing: my writing is changing, my attitude is changing, my plans are changing. I have reached the same Point Non Plus (sorry, reading Georgette Heyer this week) that got me off soda (after 30 years of drinking it) and onto flavored water and finally onto 99% water, and sticking there despite recurring cravings.

The reason that lifestyle change worked was explained to me by _The Power of Habit_. You have to overwrite the old habit loop and have a strong reason for committing to the new one (mine was fear for my kidneys and the like).

Working at becoming at being a full-time writer is my new goal and habit loop I'm aiming for. But it is worlds harder for me because it takes longer, and I don't have quite the same level of confidence in the end goal. But if I keep at it, I can overwrite my old doubts which fed into lazy, passive habits.

But like with any habit, the old one will never be gone. You just have to have a stronger one in its place, or it will dominate all your new work.

So maybe some of the "given up" writers are like me but haven't reached their PNP point yet, and the habits of the non-writing life were stronger than the new one they were working toward.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Melody Simmons said:


> Funny I have done pretty much the same as you Evenstar - I have searched for authors who bought premade covers from me in past years. Some have published their books with my covers, have had great success and are still contacting me once in a while for another cover. But some of my best premade covers ever have never seen the light of day as the authors never published the books they bought them for. I guess life gets in the way sometimes...


Melody, have you thought about buying back those covers at a reduced rate? You could sell the covers to someone else who might actually use them, and the authors who stopped writing would have a chance to make back some of the money they spent on covers they didn't end up using. Just a thought.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

I read through this thread earlier and have to come back to it. I'm coming at this from the POV of someone who just got into publishing. I've been writing my whole life, and even published a teensy little bit. 

Until last year, I had no intentions of being an indie author. I was in the query go-round, and still optimistic. I'd had some bites, and they weren't soul-crushing when they turned into rejections, so I felt I had hope and a chance. Then I made the decision to self-publish, and found I had an entire new course load of work to learn.

I think the learning bit trips a lot of people up. Publishing, even trad publishing, isn't what we were led to believe anymore. It's not the same model it was even ten years ago. There's a lot more work involved. And it's work without a road map - most people aren't comfortable without that map. They aren't comfortable with making the map themselves.

I get it. I find that I struggle with coming up with my own map. I think it comes down to whether or not you want to write your own map, and work hard in mapping it. 

It's a business. Most small businesses have a high fail rate. I see being a career author as the same thing. The reality of being a SBO has never been easy. Add onto that writing a book, which is also not easy. 

Or - life changes, people have less time to be on the boards, and chat. I've had to limit my KB time, as my schedule has gotten busier. I hate to see people leave because of negative things, though. I've learned a lot from those further along in this journey than me.


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## derekailes2014 (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm glad I stuck with it.  It took a couple of years before my books started to sell.  On my journey, I've made many friends, met a lot of celebrities and became a regular contributor and a short story website.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Life happens. There are as many reasons as there are people who start down this path.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> PLENTY of highly successful authors have tried to help. The people who disappeared don't want help. They want an 12-step program to riches and there isn't one. The authors who have tried repeatedly to help often get shot down and are usually called "outliers" and their advice dismissed. It only takes so many times of that before they abandon a forum and go elsewhere where they can actually make a difference.


Quoted for truth. I've seen it happen here, and on the KDP forums, among others. When people keep pushing the knowledgeable ones away, boards are left to the other newbies and often to the disrupters, the liars and the tr*lls.

I've seen some of these folks around on other forums, but I won't say where because I don't want to have their new places broken up by the same kind of crap they got here.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

Ernest Hemingway allegedly said, "Writing is easy. You just sit at a typewriter and bleed,"  or something to that effect.

Some writers are like hemophiliacs and bleed out very, very, quickly.
Other writers apply tourniquets to the part of their soul that won't stop bleeding. When it turns to gangrene, they have skilled editors or honest friends cut it off (the most visceral, insightful revelations often come from the best of editors and friends.)
Other writers receive transfusions from God, the devil and his horde of demons, or other people.

After enough books perused, one can almost at times tell what kind of bleeder a writer is.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> Life happens. There are as many reasons as there are people who start down this path.


That's pretty much what my opinion is as well. And, with apologies to Perry Mason, claiming that others have "given up" assumes facts not in evidence. Stopping doing something doesn't necessarily equal giving up.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

There are some other potential reasons why writers have disappeared. Serious chronic illness is a possibility. Or, maybe they are one of those refugees trying to get out of the Middle East. Or maybe they got charged with political crimes against the State and are now locked up in a jail somewhere in China. You never know. Life is full of unexpected things.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

This answer will forever be incomplete. As I kinda think that a writer never quits. Once a writer, always a writer. I don't know. 

Each writer quits/stops writing for a different unique reason too you know. 

But I will say that unlike the indie music world/being a musician, it's really hard being not white and also LGBT, (I'll also add being autistic, as I am autistic. As there are very few autistic authors/writers) in the literary world and getting people to read your books. I'm sorry, I refuse to ignore the pink elephant sipping tea in the corner, looking at me with smug looks. I'm 28 years old and trying to mature myself, but it's tough. I don't have any family support or a boyfriend or anything, and writing is all I have it seems. 

Oh well.


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## CloudStrife (Oct 21, 2015)

Bixso said:


> This answer will forever be incomplete. As I kinda think that a writer never quits. Once a writer, always a writer. I don't know.
> 
> Each writer quits/stops writing for a different unique reason too you know.
> 
> ...


Not to undermine your pain, but sometimes it helps to flip your thinking. Perhaps this is the best time ever to be a minority, as I sense that there is increasing interest from the world in understanding different perspectives, and in sympathizing with the pain of the minority / have-nots. The world is working toward increasing rights for everyone, as a general trend, rather than in taking them away. Yes, progress is slow and painful, but if you look at changes through decades, you see the progress more clearly.

Think that you have a unique perspective and story to tell, and think of how you can make that story appealing to everyone, not just your particular group. This change in thinking style will put you in a position to write something that has wider appeal.

Some people will always try to shoot you down, but there is no point on focusing on that or on letting them get you down. If you do, they are just winning. Never let them get to you.

Realize that there are plenty of people who will accept you no matter who you are, and wish to learn more about your life and struggles and triumphs, and focus on that.

Good luck.

I am not LGBT, but I am a well-travelled person who is a minority everywhere I go, even in my homeland.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Bixso said:


> This answer will forever be incomplete. As I kinda think that a writer never quits. Once a writer, always a writer. I don't know.
> 
> Each writer quits/stops writing for a different unique reason too you know.
> 
> ...


Not to be an contrarian, but your wrong about non-white and LGBT writers. The rate in which these books are being published is increasing every year. Look at the Hugo's and that might give you an idea of just how far the publishing industry has come. In fact, it's never been a better time in literature for those groups. I was at SIBA this year and while industry pros were decidedly monochromatic, the writers were as diverse as you could possibly expect.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Bixso said:


> This answer will forever be incomplete. As I kinda think that a writer never quits. Once a writer, always a writer. I don't know.
> 
> Each writer quits/stops writing for a different unique reason too you know.
> 
> ...


So you pulled up a thread from 4 years ago to complain about how hard it is to be black and part of the LGBT community again. You are focusing on the wrong thing man.

_Most readers don't care what authors look like, what race they are or their sexual orientation. Most readers want a good book to read. _

I am a person of colour, I have mentioned this before when you were saying that POC don't sell books. I pointed out a bunch of successful black women who write books with characters that are diverse. Look at someone like Shonda Rhimes who is a powerful producer and showrunner in Hollywood, who has shows with a diverse cast of characters.

I think your focus on your race and sexual orientation has nothing to do with your writing and book sales. However, maybe arrange to meet up with some authors who write in your genre, who you feel a connection to and see if you can find a support network and get some help to cross promote your books.

A few people have pointed out that books with diverse characters are selling better than ever today. 
*
Look at authors like:*

Jasmine Guillory
Helen Hoang
Jenny Han
Angie Thomas
Tomi Adeyemi
Nicola Yoon
Casey McQuiston

*Look at what Netflix and other studios are producing now that have a cast of diverse characters:*

-13 reasons why
-Let it snow
-To all the boys I've loved before


Spoiler



(one of the black guys in the movie is gay and the main character is an Asian teenager)


- Orange is the new black

I can't be bothered to write a longer list but maybe I'll start a new thread about diversity in the publishing industry. It's wonderful to see so many POC and people from all walks of life finding success.

Seriously there are authors I read that I have no idea what they look like, their race or their sexual orientation. I actually just discovered that this book series I read a couple years ago, with a white cast of characters, which is now complete at long last. Well it was written by a black woman. I had no idea and I don't care.


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## josephdaniel (Jan 30, 2019)

I think sometimes giving up is the right choice, but sometimes, people give up for the wrong reasons. One of my friends gave up his entrepreneur dreams because he got married, bought a house and got a job offer. He is extremely content, and much happier/healthier now than when he was chasing the elusive goal. Now, personally, I doubt I would make the same choices as him. But I know he's happier now that he chose a path that allowed him to focus more on his relationships/family/wife. It can be draining to be your own cheerleader.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Good grief, I remember starting this thread far too well! I can't be really be over four years ago!?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

A post has been removed. As with any member, if you think Bixso's feelings are wrongheaded or unproductive, please stay on the civil side of the line in saying so.

An FYI for newer members: we have no rule against bumping older threads, but please note that many of the people who posted in this one four years ago are no longer around to see responses to their posts.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Being that the old thread was reopened, and I never saw it previously, I'll reiterate what some of the original posters said -- a lot of writers give up because their expectations were too high.

In any endeavor, one has to be realistic. It's work. It can be fun work, but it's work -- and a craft -- nonetheless. There are no easy breaks, although getting a break isn't impossible.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Decon said:


> I don't think it is a question of giving up fast, more that it is a long writing journey that self-publishing has brought to a close for many them and scratched an itch.
> 
> I think that you have to look at publishing history prior to ebooks and self-publishing for the answer. Before the internet, millions chose to to give up writing after exhausting the submission circuit, their MS languishing in limbo forever, without really knowing why their book was not considered viable, and so moved onto other passtimes.
> 
> ...


Wow, I can't believe it's 4 years since I wrote that post. A lot has happened since then, but I still think what I said still holds up.

I for one haven't written anythiing or published for around 2 years, but I've still earned a small monthly income, though it seems to have come to a halt this month. I also still post on kindleboards. In my case it's been a combination of factors that have intervened, not least because of computers packing in and moving continents. Moving to another country has taken the majority of time in not writing and I've still not settled everything. That alone has taken any money I could have invested in writing and publishing more. I've only just bought a new laptop, so I have high hopes of starting again on 2020.


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## Pyram King (Oct 7, 2019)

Evenstar said:


> I've seen lots of writers on here over the past couple of years who are not here now. Just looking over some old posts and I remember quite a few names. So I did a very quick check on a few of them to see if they were still publishing and most were not. Perhaps they started new pen names, or maybe they are still writing and are working on something epic. But I suspect a lot of them have simply given up on publishing. And I'm wondering why.
> 
> Do you think they thought they would make a lot of money and then had to quit when it didnt happen straight away?
> Do you think they liked the idea but not the hard work involved/the reality?
> ...


As a newbie, but someone that has had success in their own businesses over the last couple of decades, it comes down to tenacity. I believe many writers do not see the endevor as also a business. It is the same reason that the majority of start-up companies fail, an idea is not a business.

I have been told, focus on writing more books. I get it and that is certainly true, however if one does not also appreciate it is also a business, than writing more books alone may not lead to success. Perhaps some believe that others (publishers) will do the heavy business lifting.

Books are unique in that their is a subjective purchase decision by the consumer, which requires marketing and publicity - convincing the sale.

I do not know if my book/s will ever be popular, I have much to learn to hone my craft and also understand the self-publishing and marketing world. However, I do have over two decades of successful businesses that I have created and in two cases sold. True, my businesses are vastly different in product, but at the end of the day the business operations large and small all run on the similar principals. Perhaps, in my humble and novice opinion in the self-publishing arena, it is the lack of business acumen that hinders many. Perhaps they rely on hope and luck, rather than tenacity.

I will continue forth, I am also frequently known to be a stubborn tenacious SOB, perhaps it is that quality in myself that has helped foster success in my other business (as well as failure).

clink - the sound of my two cents dropping in the bucket.


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## Jeff Hughes (May 4, 2012)

People stop writing because it's hard.  And because most people aren't very good at it.  And because even for that small percentage who do manage to put out good words... actually making any kind of decent living off those efforts is hard.  Unfathomably hard.

Unrealistic expectations, indeed.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

I am no longer publishing (for now) because...

I'm diagnosed with both Asperger's and ADHD and was a fairly productive writer when I was unemployed. But now that I (fortunately, I really appreciate it) finally got a regular office job, where I'm accepted and welcomed despite my deficiencies, my creative energy has gone poof for the most part. The office drains it out of me.

I probably made more from my books than the majority of new Indie writers. Still, it was nowhere close what the office job pays, or what the editing (which I do on top of the office) pays. And my current life situation demands money. A regular, predictable income. I can't afford to quit one of my two jobs in order to continue writing. At least not right now.

I haven't quit for good, though. I 100% intend to complete my series one day - the webfiction version (published on my Wordpress site) is complete since 2016 and a good 650K words long. The ebooks will follow eventually.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

The bigger mystery is why so many hang on for so long.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Let's not forget the assumptions we're operating under on this thread.

~ the OP mentioned a comparison of people posting here on Kboards, back in the 'old days' vs today.  Even back in the heyday, the percentage of Kboarders to total published authors is probably quite small.
~ there have always been a (small?) number of readers who are active on Kboards, so just because one or five or twenty people no longer post here, doesn't necessarily mean those people were writers.
~ a lot of writers here don't (didn't) have books in their signatures, so it's not obvious what their author name is, making it difficult to track their publishing history.
~ not posting here doesn't mean writers aren't still writing & publishing.  Rather than quitting writing, maybe some just quit posting on kboards



But getting back to the original question, I think some people simply decide the work, effort, & time involved in publishing isn't worth it in the long run.  That does NOT necessarily mean they were unsuccessful and didn't sell books... it simply means they didn't get sufficient enjoyment out of it.  Outwardly "successful" people do sometimes quit their jobs if they don't feel fulfilled.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Dpock said:


> The bigger mystery is why so many hang on for so long.


No mystery there. It's art. With any art, people will continue to produce, regardless of return on the investment of time. If they feel they have an artistic gift, or actually do, they're going to exercise it.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

jb1111 said:


> No mystery there. It's art. With any art, people will continue to produce, regardless of return on the investment of time. If they feel they have an artistic gift, or actually do, they're going to exercise it.


I think you nailed it.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

ElHawk said:


> I think the world of writers in general (not just on this forum) is full of people who have VERY unrealistic expectations about what it's like to be a writer. Whether it's work, money, ease of breaking out, or expectation of fame, there are SOOO many people who stubbornly believe in one particular fantasy of "being a writer," and reality never lives up to their dreams.


OP posed a very good question, and I think most of the answer is in the response above. You can read plenty of comments on these boards that include "I hate that part of being a writer" and that includes marketing, following up on emails, getting covers right, managing our text going form one application to another, waiting for Amazon to finish updating or approving a manuscript, and so many other things. For me, those issues constitute 75% of being an indie. That makes it real easy to give up.

If you can keep your head down and do all those amazing things an indie has to do..........and write a great story, wow, you are an amazing author. And, you'll probably sell very well in the marketplace. I just wish it was easier and not a constant drive to get to the top 1 or 2%.

As an aside, I know several Trad Published authors, and while they might not make more from their writing than many indie authors here, they have a different outlook. It's as though they feel verified, or approved as a "real author" and they seem less inclined to quit because they only do the writing part and some marketing and the public seems to look up to them as professional. Kind of pisses me off, but I feel it too. For me, sometimes it's hard to just write as an indie because the perception by many is that I'm not a real writer - because I don't have a contract from a publisher.

Fortunately, I'm optimistic and stubborn enough to know my time is valuable and my work is good enough to get by, even if I can't make all the money I want from writing (that's my way of saying to everyone - myself included - hang in there, it's worth it).


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## scott.marmorstein (May 26, 2015)

Because writing is easy. Writing a story and telling it well is very difficult. Selling anything you write is a confluence of luck, timing, reader interest, and visibility. 

People drop out because they think about the money, not about the art, and the persistence, and the desire to tell great stories. Stories are what people want. Let them read good stories.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I think all of the OP's reasons are valid.
Writing is tough, folks.
You put your heart and soul into a work that exposes more of your inner-self than just building a widget, singing a song, or painting a picture. That book is you, your voice, your deepest thoughts, a vehicle of your true self. It is a child in a way, a communication that you have carefully molded, corrected, invested in, and nurtured.
You put it out there for others to see, which is an unnatural act for many people.
Either no one bothers to look, or they react with a brutal, harsh review.
Most parents would agree that someone unfairly attacking their child hurts more than just about any other experience.
Seeing your child fail is one of life's most difficult endurances, especially if you feel strongly that it's not the kid's fault. 
I'm actually surprised that so many of us stay in the game. 
I've earned a paycheck in some of the world's most difficult places. This is as tough as it gets.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I think all of the OP's reasons are valid.
> Writing is tough, folks.
> You put your heart and soul into a work that exposes more of your inner-self than just building a widget, singing a song, or painting a picture. That book is you, your voice, your deepest thoughts, a vehicle of your true self. It is a child in a way, a communication that you have carefully molded, corrected, invested in, and nurtured.
> You put it out there for others to see, which is an unnatural act for many people.
> ...


Well said.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I published a novel in one of my series a couple of weeks ago. It had been about a year and a half since I had published anything. My sales and reads had deteriorated each month. The reason that I hadn't written much was due to various factors. My eyes developed cataracts which made it difficult to see. I finally decided to get the cataracts removed which I did in January. The operation was simple and wasn't painful. I was surprised that I was able to see better than ever before. I have to use reading classes for reading my kindle, but I have no problem with using a computer. 

The housing market improved so my wife and I decided to sell our two story house which wasn't suitable for us any longer.  We moved to the town my wife was born in and I went to high school at. We found a ranch style house that was perfect for us. A lot of the students that I remembered from high school live in this town. Many of them had left and then returned since it is a nice small town to live in.

It was hard getting started writing again, but I forced myself to finish the novel I started more than a year ago. I used to be able to publish about six novels and short stories in a year. I am working on another novel that I started about the same time as the one I published. I hope to get back up to speed and get interested in writing on a regular basis.

I think health issues and a lot of other factors can force writers to give up temporarily. Writing is enjoyable so many writers go back to it like I am doing. I would like to publish at least a couple of books a year. I doubt I will ever be as prolific as I used to be though.


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## SaltObelisk (May 24, 2017)

To Bixso - I would argue that the exact opposite is true, especially in the tradpub world. Literary agents are aggressively looking for POC writers and LGBT "ownvoices" books, to the point that I imagine it might look a bit ostracizing to straight, white males.

As for why an author would quit--for me, it's the feedback. My pen names have about a 3.7 average on goodreads, so it's not all bad, but the bad reviews break me. I got a one-star the other day that raised my blood pressure. lol.

Two years ago, I wrote a series that I've never released. I wrote it right after my dad died. That world was my happy place during a very dark time, and I don't want mean people in my happy place. I'm already a very depressed and disabled person and I don't need more reasons to be sad. 

I don't know why people even leave one-star reviews. Don't they know that writers are twice as likely to commit suicide? https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/10/study-writers-are-twice-as-likely-to-commit-suicide/263833/

I frequent a video game subreddit where people are constantly sharing their art and cosplays. If people are rude to the artists there, the mean commenters are aggressively downvoted. So... why are one-star reviews still so accepted in our culture? I wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings, or be the reason why they gave up on their dream.

Maybe it's just me...


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Jeff Hughes said:


> People stop writing because it's hard. And because most people aren't very good at it. And because even for that small percentage who do manage to put out good words... actually making any kind of decent living off those efforts is hard. Unfathomably hard.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations, indeed.


Those are words that could have been mine.

If anyone really wants to know why people stop writing, they should perhaps visit the kdp forum, where a lot of newbies gather. That is where will be found 'writers' who wonder why their fifteen page leaflet is not competing with Stephen King. There will be found those who can barely string a sentence together in order to post, but think their English is fine even though they've never heard of words like a, the, my, her, whatever. There you will find those who bought the book 'How I made $50,000 in a month' and wonder why they haven't done the same.

I will always remember one such post, from a woman whose friend was making a couple of thousand a month from her book. Her question was: Is this true? Her other question was: So all I have to do is write a novel?

Writing fiction is not easy; writing is time consuming and solitary and the one thing really needed that so many people are missing, is an imagination. Even for non-fiction, one needs a way with words. One also needs to be prepared to research, even for contemporary novels. It's no good writing a story set in Holloway Prison when it closed down three years ago.

I've written stories since I learned to write; my imagination runs riot, all the time. But let's not forget that just because a writer is no longer posting on this forum, does not mean they are no longer writing. Several have joined the exodus to other forums since the change of Terms that so many objected to.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

scott.marmorstein said:


> Because writing is easy. Writing a story and telling it well is very difficult. Selling anything you write is a confluence of luck, timing, reader interest, and visibility.
> 
> People drop out because they think about the money, not about the art, and the persistence, and the desire to tell great stories. Stories are what people want. Let them read good stories.


Writing is not easy for many people; I know a lot who cannot even write a letter.

A lot of beginners, especially those who see those 'I made a fortune self publishing' think writing is easy. When they discover it isn't they run away and hide, telling the world that their originality wasn't appreciated. Rather like the new drivers who fail their driving test, but it wasn't anything they did. It was because the examiner had got his quota for the week; because the examiner didn't like him; and very often, it was even, the examiner was racist! The driver nearly hit someone pulling out at a roundabout, or nearly scraped the car beside him while reverse parking, but the reason he failed was because the examiner was racist!

I even had one who failed his theory test, but told me the computer had broken down half way through.

It's the same with writing. I look at pictures and I'm quite sure I can reproduce them, paint a face; looks easy enough, until I try! One thing's for certain: nobody is going to sell books if they can't write.


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## Lorri Moulton [Lavender Lass Books] (Jun 15, 2019)

I think visibility is the biggest challenge right now.  My plan is to keep writing, finish a few series...then finally advertise.  I can't see spending money until I have a reasonable sell through available.


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Life is complicated. Everyone has their own hierarchy of needs, wants, goods. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing in order to achieve another. With me, the kids are getting older, the 9-5 has turned into more of a 8-6, plus weekends, more demands due to aging relatives, etc. You reach different forks in the road and think, man, that's definitely a salad fork-- no, I mean, you have to decide right or left, and that means giving up one thing for another.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice something extremely good, such as writing, in order to achieve something else.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Writers give up because they keep knocking their heads against the wall. The wall of boredom.

The problem is that many (most?) authors start to write... before they have _a story_. They just have a couple of ideas that can sort of become interlinked and can, with hammer and saw and countless re-writings, be forced to shuffle from start to end.

That's not a story.

A *story* is something you can tantalize a reader to become interested in with just a sentence or two. This can't be done with most books that fail, even after editing, because they contain too many chopped and confusing and conflicting ideas instead of a core concept (such as a moral... law and order for example , an event... surviving an earthquake, an epic goal... voyage to Mars, a singular purpose... become president, or revenge, or etc etc etc etc)

Romance is a good example where there are tons of books where the characters have no purpose other than to connect the dots they themselves seem to sprinkle around them. That's not a story - there's no main purpose. It's just social stuff topped up with sex because you gotta give readers something. Meh.

A Romance book where the protag has, from the onset, *made a decision* let's say to find a mate... _that's_ a story, a superbly easy one to write and it can be written in 10,000 different ways without risk of repetition.

Off the top of my head let's say

_In the winter of 1875, Evelyn huddles in a cottage on the Irish highland. She reads in a paper about cowboys and Indians and decides she is going to marry a chief._

From there the story can evolve in any which way you want and still be comprehensible


she might sell the cottage and board a ship for the United Colonies the next day,
or she has no funds and sets out to kidnap and ransom a British Lord but is caught and sent to the colonies in punishment as a whore,
or she learns a chief is to arrive in London and sets out on foot to cross the British Isles in time,
or she wraps her boobs and enlists on a ship as a man, crosses the sea, and falls in love with Belle Starr who is already married to a Cherokee
etc etc etc

The point is - when the main character has a goal in life - the rest comes easy, both for the writer and for the reader.









Belle Starr


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

atree said:


> Writers give up because they keep knocking their heads against the wall. The wall of boredom.
> 
> The problem is that many (most?) authors start to write... before they have _a story_. They just have a couple of ideas that can sort of become interlinked and can, with hammer and saw and countless re-writings, be forced to shuffle from start to end.
> 
> That's not a story.


That is absolute twaddle. Having an idea is what starts a story off; ever heard of pantsing? Not everyone needs an entire story to begin to write. I only ever have an idea, or a couple of characters and those characters toddle off and write their own story.

The one time I decided to do a complete outline, the story veered off by chapter three.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

I did't mean you need to have the full story before you write. Quite the opposite actually. 

What I'm saying is that it is easier to create successful stories when they are based around a seed concept/idea which (despite being encapsulated in just a sentence or two; the elevator pitch) is powerful enough to act as a seed for a full book.

An author that continually struggles to create successful stories is a writer that finally stops, because of financial needs, or because failure (as in not enough sales, or no recognition) is painful, or simply out of boredom.

My suggestion to all authors, in all genres, that are not seeing the hits they expected or are having trouble crafting their books... can you describe/present your story/book to someone else in 2 or 3 sentences? If not, then the root of the problem might be lack of core concept/premise powerful enough to base a whole book on.

Examples of strong and weak concepts:
https://jerichowriters.com/the-elevator-pitch/

*Here's one from real life and currently in the news:*
A famous historian fond of cosplay is rescued from drowning and is immediately detained when the bloody arms of his lover are found in his backpack.

*Bang! Boom! Pow!*

What a setup! If an author can't write any number of stories, in any direction, of any type, in any genre, based on that sentence alone.... then the world is coming to an end 

A good seed/concept/pitch/blurb makes the reader ask questions, become curious, want to know more. Why was he in the water? Why did he not let the backpack float away before rescue? How did the lover die and who was it? Did the historian chop the body into pieces? Etc?


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

People give up writing for a lot of reasons. They might learn the hard truth that their talent is limited and they'll will never be ready for prime time. Often though, if they truly enjoy it, they'll write again, only with different goals in mind. Like me when I had to face my musical limitations, the hurt fades. In time I learned to simply enjoy playing. It's these people who don't stop writing so much as they stop publishing. 
I think that is the real question. Why do people give up trying to publish? Most commonly it's failure. Unreasonable expectations, limited resources, refusal to admit they're using ill-conceived methods, taking wrongheaded advice, or just plain old bad writing, are but a few of the causes. Failure sucks. Repeated failure REALLY sucks. Facing it head on is more than some can handle.
Then there are those who come to understand that indie is not, and never was, right for them. They don't quit so much as fade from the indie scene. *Spoiler alert* You are no more likely to break through as an indie as you are in traditional. The numbers are clear on this. Though the total number of genre fiction novelists making a living ranges from 10,000-15,000 depending on the source, the percentage of indie to traditional remains evenly split. Some writers find that they are better suited to a slower pace with fewer responsibilities outside the writing itself and seek other publishing options. 
Side note- 
I keep seeing people caveat the word success. I suppose they don't want to trigger anyone. Seems silly to me. Sure, personal success can be defined by the individual. But indie publishing is a business. And while you can try to have multiple goals that have nothing to do with profit, ultimately sales are the yardstick by which you measure success. This is true for any business. Regardless of your business model, the endgame is profit. Amazon broke even for years. But that was not the ultimate goal, as is evidenced by Bezos's enormous wealth. 
How profitable  - how much success -  desired can certainly differ from person to person. One restaurant owner might be satisfied opening for dinner only, five days a week. Another seven days, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And still another hopes to one day become a franchise. But regardless of ambition, all must make a profit to stay in business.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

That's such bullcrap on quitting because you're a "bad writer".

If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer. You just maybe need to be blessed to work with reliable editors, marketers, agents etc. That's the tough part. 

There is no such thing as bad writing.

There sadly is a such thing as "writing which doesn't conform". As I write in kinda a more urban prose I guess. Ugh. Such is life. 

I don't write like that, and refuse to. So don't buy my books, because I'm not changing.

I don't write like Shakespeare, but Shakespeare was a wonderful writer. That's just not my style, and it's okay.

The sad part is you have to conform to the literary world, and that was my point.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Bixso said:


> That's such bullcrap on quitting because you're a "bad writer".
> 
> If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer. You just maybe need to be blessed to work with reliable editors, marketers, agents etc. That's the tough part.
> 
> There is no such thing as bad writing.


Talk about bullcrap!


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## Jeff Hughes (May 4, 2012)

"There is no such thing as bad writing."

Alrighty, then.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Bixso said:


> That's such bullcrap on quitting because you're a "bad writer".
> 
> If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer. You just maybe need to be blessed to work with reliable editors, marketers, agents etc. That's the tough part.
> 
> ...


It has nothing to do with conformity. Not everyone can take their writing to the next level. If they could, "novelist" wouldn't be a profession. We wouldn't assign value to a great book. We wouldn't hold in high regard those who have mastered their craft. And the achievement of becoming a full-time writer would be meaningless. There would be only positive reviews and endless praise. Though I suppose reviews and praise would be meaningless, also. 
It's not too hard to pick out the writers who have the chops from those who don't. You don't need to be a literary critic. If you think it's about editors, you are misunderstanding the editing process and what they do. I've worked with indie editors and Big Five editors. None did anything to alter my prose or style, aside from minor corrections and suggestions. They polish. They don't create. 
I would *never *tell someone they don't have the talent to write. Writing is a form of self-expression that should be encouraged. You don't need to be a great writer to enjoy it any more than you need to be a great musician to derive pleasure from playing a song. There is nothing wrong with striving to get better and hoping to one day reach whatever goal you've set for yourself. That's what I love about indie.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Bixso said:


> That's such bullcrap on quitting because you're a "bad writer".
> 
> If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer. You just maybe need to be blessed to work with reliable editors, marketers, agents etc. That's the tough part.
> 
> ...


"Bad writing" sometimes _IS_ the result of not having an editor (or good editor), and lack of sales sometimes IS the result of poor or no marketing. Both things can be improved with a good editor and smart marketing plan.

But... sometimes bad writing is just that: bad writing. It's true that there are occasionally writers who "don't conform" and still sell books and become well known. e.e. cummings and Cormac McCarthy are two who are usually named as examples of this. Obviously, writers who achieve that are definitely the exception rather than the rule.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Bixso said:


> If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer.


  I disagree and I think that lowering the expectations... that others have on us and that we set for ourselves... is dangerous, counter-productive and delusional.

Let's fix it: 
If you completed a book/story/novel, you're a good writer.

A story needs a beginning a middle and an end. Almost anyone can do this, regardless of length. But simply putting 2+2 together does not make us into mathematicians. Completing a book, story or manuscript does NOT make one a good writer. A good writer is one that has (from birth or through development) the skill to tell a story, recount events and/or spin a yarn in such a way that the reader is willing to partake of that information and preferably, ask for more.

The 4 year old daughter of my niece niece has completed several stories in writing, complete with beginning, middle and end.
This does not make her anything other than literate. The stories suck, but we have fun reading them!  But the fact she has presented completed manuscripts does not make her a good writer, nor a good storyteller, and much less an author.

If we wish to become better, at anything, we need to raise the bar and strive for betterment and not to seek the safe-haven of complacency.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Here's my take (100% admitting I didn't read the last 8 pages of discussion), finishing a book is something to be proud of. And if you can do it, you have my respect. 

But that doesn't make you a good writer.  I liken writing to any other skill.  Some people are naturals right from the start.  Others will become proficient in it the more they practice.  However, there are some who simply do not have the aptitude for it, and no amount of practice will make them good at it.  Does that mean they should stop?  No. Not if they enjoy doing it.  Heck, I suck at basketball, yet I'm more than happy to throw myself clumsily into a pickup game.  At the same time, I'm not sitting by my phone wondering why the NBA isn't calling.  

Sometimes good books don't sell because of any of a thousand reasons.  But, sometimes it's a simple case of it not being a good book.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Here's my take (100% admitting I didn't read the last 8 pages of discussion), finishing a book is something to be proud of. And if you can do it, you have my respect.
> 
> But that doesn't make you a good writer. I liken writing to any other skill. Some people are naturals right from the start. Others will become proficient in it the more they practice. However, there are some who simply do not have the aptitude for it, and no amount of practice will make them good at it. Does that mean they should stop? No. Not if they enjoy doing it. Heck, I suck at basketball, yet I'm more than happy to throw myself clumsily into a pickup game. At the same time, I'm not sitting by my phone wondering why the NBA isn't calling.


100% agree with this part.


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## AllenOwen (Oct 5, 2019)

I imagine it falls along a bell curve: Some people are at one end, and are naturals: Stephen King, etc. Most fall somewhere in the middle of the curve and can become good with varying degrees of effort. And others simply can't do it. The extremes at both ends are a minority. 

I will caveat that even those we think of as "good" or "naturals" will scoff and say they got good through hard work. I think Stephen King taught English while he worked on his craft, and success was not overnight for him, either.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Here's my take (100% admitting I didn't read the last 8 pages of discussion), finishing a book is something to be proud of. And if you can do it, you have my respect.
> 
> But that doesn't make you a good writer. I liken writing to any other skill. Some people are naturals right from the start. Others will become proficient in it the more they practice. However, there are some who simply do not have the aptitude for it, and no amount of practice will make them good at it. Does that mean they should stop? No. Not if they enjoy doing it. Heck, I suck at basketball, yet I'm more than happy to throw myself clumsily into a pickup game. At the same time, I'm not sitting by my phone wondering why the NBA isn't calling.
> 
> Sometimes good books don't sell because of any of a thousand reasons. But, sometimes it's a simple case of it not being a good book.


Nicely put.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Sam Clemens. Ever heard of the guy? He used to go by Mark Twain, and is generally regarded as one of the finest writers in the English language. He also lost lots of money in publishing. He is the object lesson that quality doesn't guarantee success. Naturally, there are lots of caveats to his story, but the point remains: if he was subject to changing markets, times, and public fancies, then those things will certainly affect everyone else.


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## AllenOwen (Oct 5, 2019)

Stephen King said this about talent and writers: "If you wrote something, and someone sent you a check for it, and the check didn't bounce when you cashed it, and you paid the light bill with it, I consider you talented." I think that can include  a significant proportion of the population, if they put in the time for to learn.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

People get touchy about personal talent and skill. It's difficult to be self-aware about your limitations. Upsetting to know that other people recognize those limitations. Infuriating and humiliating when they're pointed out. 
Becoming a professional novelist is dangerous to your self-esteem. You don't know how good you are until you try. First attempts are typically train wrecks. So you have to keep trying to get better. But how much better can you get? That the big question. It can take years to learn the answer. And it might not be the answer you hoped for. 
Maybe it's our desire for immorality that makes it so hard to accept? We want what the manifestation of our imaginations to hold value; that others see our creations as something worthy of their time and attention. Perhaps it's so that what we create might outlive us in the way our children do? To leave behind a portion of ourselves so sometime in the future who we once were can be rediscovered. Better yet, that our work finds its home in the here and now, so that we know for a fact we will be remembered. 
Just speculating. I *do *know that people get upset in a unique way when discussing their talent...or lack thereof.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

There are bad writers who also write inaccessible material. They typically don't sell or have many hardcore fans.

There are bad writers (and just mediocre writers) who write highly commerical material. Some of them sell a lot.

There are great writers who write inaccessible material. They usually don't sell a ton but they have some hardcore fans.

And there are great writers who write commerical material who sell a ton and have a ton of fans.

It's really a two by two continuum, not an either/or. Quality helps sell books but everything else needs to be in place.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Self-publishing has changed the market for ever.

Edgar Allan Poe, Mark Twain, Agatha Christie and Stephen King would find it hard to compete in today's market if they started out from scratch, regardless of if they did it as self-publishers or attempted to break into  trade publishing.

Still, I'm not sure we can say more writers give up quicker now than before. It's just that so many more people are trying their hand in this business. A natural result is a higher frequency of dropouts.

Competition is tougher now. Way, way  tougher.

That's the reality. Suck it up and act accordingly.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

atree said:


> A good writer is one that has (from birth or through development) the skill to tell a story, recount events and/or spin a yarn in such a way that the reader is willing to partake of that information and preferably, ask for more.


So how do you do that?


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

D. A. J. F. said:


> So how do you do that?


By understanding the fundamentals of story structure. Start with the basics like the three act play. Pay attention to how plots move and how characters develop, which means a lot of reading. Pay attention to pacing and learn how to distribute information gradually while not allowing the story to lag. Learn to give characters their own unique voice. Start with all this. And there's still much more.
While story telling comes naturally to some, even a gifted writer needs to study. The mistakes of writing "and then" scenes, information dumps, uneven pacing, irrelevant information, wandering plots, head jumping, unnecessarily avoiding the word "said", show don't tell, continuity errors, unrealistic character growth, two dimensional characters, are but few of the challenges to overcome. 
Of course, then there's the plot itself. Not all ideas are good. At least not good enough to warrant a novel.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

I still think "bad writing" is subjective.

I don't like polka music, but polka music performers are still talented.

Just because you didn't like the plot, pacing, it wasn't in a professional prose to you, doesn't mean the writer is "bad" and it's, "bad writing'. 

Hell, maybe it was black/dark comedy? Ever think of that?


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

atree said:


> Self-publishing has changed the market for ever.
> 
> Edgar Allan Poe, Mark Twain, Agatha Christie and Stephen King would find it hard to compete in today's market if they started out from scratch, regardless of if they did it as self-publishers or attempted to break into trade publishing.


I feel differently. If you read just about anything these four authors have in book form and can't see why they sold so well - and still would starting from scratch today - I'm afraid you really don't see their genius. And, the stories they told didn't have to be in a series - they stand alone proudly.

People quit writing because it takes the better part of a baker's dozen pieces to be successful and most of us can only cobble together six or eight pieces proficiently.

1) An idea
2) that appeals to the masses
3) with coherent, enjoyable writing
4) memorable, real characters
5) made into a compelling story
6) beautifully edited
7) skillfully marketed
 with a great cover
9) a great blurb
10) the right price point

It helps if you have

11) a follow-up story
12) cash to finish each step
13) a thick skin to ignore the critics


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## lea_owens (Dec 5, 2011)

'Bad writing' may have a subjective element to it, but there's also a fairly large level of agreement as to what constitutes 'bad writing' - and, ultimately, the readers are the final test. 
Perhaps it's analogous to cooking - twenty people cook a casserole - some use great ingredients and take a lot of care to balance everything and produce a good meal that looks good and tastes fantastic, and you want to come back for more. Some produce something edible, but you're not fussed if you finish it, and you probably would only eat more if you were really hungry and had no choice -and are surprised to hear someone down the table enjoyed it. Some have everything underdone - raw meat and they cut corners by adding frozen vegetables that are still frozen - so it looks OK, but is inedible. A few don't care about the hairs that fell off their head into it and the fact that they added a cup of salt instead of a pinch and garnished it with horse manure. So, they are all cooks and they all produced a meal, but some will be popular and some won't even pass the 'first look' test.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

lea_owens said:


> 'Bad writing' may have a subjective element to it, but there's also a fairly large level of agreement as to what constitutes 'bad writing' - and, ultimately, the readers are the final test.
> Perhaps it's analogous to cooking - it looks OK, but is inedible. A few don't care about the hairs that fell off their head into it and the fact that they added a cup of salt instead of a pinch and garnished it with horse manure. So, they are all cooks and they all produced a meal, but some will be popular and some won't even pass the 'first look' test.


Definitely analogous to cooking. I know because I started a book recently that must have been written by that last cook. It had a cup of salt and was garnished with horse manure that didn't cover up the original smell of the author's words. Surprisingly enough, just a single chapter killed my appetite.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> By understanding the fundamentals of story structure. Start with the basics like the three act play. Pay attention to how plots move and how characters develop, which means a lot of reading. Pay attention to pacing and learn how to distribute information gradually while not allowing the story to lag. Learn to give characters their own unique voice. Start with all this. And there's still much more.
> While story telling comes naturally to some, even a gifted writer needs to study. The mistakes of writing "and then" scenes, information dumps, uneven pacing, irrelevant information, wandering plots, head jumping, unnecessarily avoiding the word "said", show don't tell, continuity errors, unrealistic character growth, two dimensional characters, are but few of the challenges to overcome.
> Of course, then there's the plot itself. Not all ideas are good. At least not good enough to warrant a novel.


Thanks Brian D. Anderson.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Flying Pizza Pie said:


> I feel differently. If you read just about anything these four authors have in book form and can't see why they sold so well - and still would starting from scratch today - I'm afraid you really don't see their genius.


I do not dispute their intellectual strengths. Anyone who has attended A King stage performance will be humbled by his quick mind, humor and personality. All of the mentioned authors have my respect and are good templates to aspire to.

I mis-formulated my suggestion.
What I meant was not just "staring out from scratch" but starting out from scratch as a self-publisher without the benefit of high-end editing.They have genius, but all of them have had the benefit of being filtered, massaged and remodeled by editors in a way that almost no self-published author can achieve today. Editing in the trade biz was, and is, a huge huge benefit. Most of us employ editing services also as self-publishers but not to the extent of what a trade house would submit, and demand, re-writing on. King himself tends to say that rewriting is a vital cornerstone.

I'm 59 and have been an avid reader since i learned my ABC's. I've read a lot of Agatha's and King's work but I don't anymore as I find "better" works elsewhere these days (specially in King's realm where I feel he has become repetitious, since way back).

I do agree that the basic requirements for a good story remain intact, very few people knoew these from the start though, something that would make their introduction into today's market, with all the competition, a much more difficult enterprise.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Bixso said:


> I still think "bad writing" is subjective.
> 
> I don't like polka music, but polka music performers are still talented.
> 
> ...


A good musician _chooses _to play polka. They could play something else, but they don't. Similarly, a good writer chooses a certain style. They have the skills to do it differently. If your writing is "bad" because that is the limit of your skill and talent, it's a bit more subjective than if it's a choice. A good example of this is Stephen King as Richard Bachman. As Bachman, King alters his style considerably. Or using myself as an example, I change my style when writing contemporary fiction. The voice I use when writing high fantasy is dramatically different. This is a conscious decision. 
If you are excluding elaborate descriptions in your work because you can't write them well is a far cry from excluding them because you think it messes up the pacing.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Good or bad doesn't matter. Do you entertain your intended audience? That's what matters. Good writing sells. Bad writing sells. Boring writing doesn't sell. Don't be a boring writer.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Good or bad doesn't matter. Do you entertain your intended audience? That's what matters. Good writing sells. Bad writing sells. Boring writing doesn't sell. Don't be a boring writer.


Agreed!


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## Lorri Moulton [Lavender Lass Books] (Jun 15, 2019)

I enjoy old movies with romance, comedy, suspense, and intrigue.  That's usually the type of story I write.  If I enjoy it and other people enjoy it, that's enough for me. 

The cover, the blurb, the editing are all important...but the story has to appeal to readers.  Best advice I've had is find your group and keep writing.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Good or bad doesn't matter. Do you entertain your intended audience? That's what matters. Good writing sells. Bad writing sells. Boring writing doesn't sell. Don't be a boring writer.


How do you entertain the reader?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

D. A. J. F. said:


> How do you entertain the reader?


You keep opening these vast questions. Maybe you should resort to Google?


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

C. Gockel said:


> You keep opening these vast questions. Maybe you should resort to Google?


well it doesn't hurt to ask.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

D. A. J. F. said:


> Plus Google's boring.


It's third on my list of life's essentials:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Memory Foam Mattress
[*]Weighted Blanket
[*]Google
[/list]


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

D. A. J. F. said:


> How do you entertain the reader?


In all honesty, if you don't know how to entertain a reader, then perhaps you should think it over the next time you read something that is interesting to you.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Good or bad doesn't matter. Do you entertain your intended audience? That's what matters. Good writing sells. Bad writing sells. Boring writing doesn't sell. Don't be a boring writer.





D. A. J. F. said:


> How do you entertain the reader?





jb1111 said:


> In all honesty, if you don't know how to entertain a reader, then perhaps you should think it over the next time you read something that is interesting to you.


I could be talking out of turn, but I took D.A.J.F's question to be somewhat rhetorical, in response to Douglas Milewski's comment. In other words, if "Good or bad doesn't matter," how are readers entertained? How do you attempt to entertain others if "good writing" is pretty much irrelevant? That would be like telling a musician "play music the audience likes... but good music and bad music don't matter." (Again, that was MY reading of D.A.J.F.'s reaction to the earlier statement.)


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Jena H said:


> I could be talking out of turn, but I took D.A.J.F's question to be somewhat rhetorical, in response to Douglas Milewski's comment. In other words, if "Good or bad doesn't matter," how are readers entertained? How do you attempt to entertain others if "good writing" is pretty much irrelevant? That would be like telling a musician "play music the audience likes... but good music and bad music don't matter." (Again, that was MY reading of D.A.J.F.'s reaction to the earlier statement.)


Point taken, but he (or she) is on an authors' forum, where most of us, theoretically, should know what entertains a reader, and at the very least it's implied that fiction writing should be entertaining.

Given that what may be entertaining to you may not be all that entertaining to me, and vice versa. But it should be entertaining to your market. And I would think that most authors know their market -- they may even be readers of that market. I know what entertains in my own genre.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Hi Jena H and jb1111.

I'm a guy by the way.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

jb1111 said:


> Point taken, but he (or she) is on an authors' forum, where most of us, theoretically, should know what entertains a reader, and at the very least it's implied that fiction writing should be entertaining.
> 
> Given that what may be entertaining to you may not be all that entertaining to me, and vice versa. But it should be entertaining to your market. And I would think that most authors know their market -- they may even be readers of that market. I know what entertains in my own genre.


I think you're talking about the fact that the STORY is what entertains most readers. Knowing what kind of story to write is one thing; writing the story with "good writing" can be a whole different kettle of fish. In any case, "good and bad DOES matter."


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

As for the main topic of why writers give up so fast, I don't know.

As for the subtopic of bad writing.

I think there's 3 kinds of bad writing:

1. Writing that is full of grammatical errors and incorrect word usage.

2. Writing that is technically proficient, but is bland when it comes to the generally accepted  forms of "good" writing such as: characterization, plot complexity, and literary elements such foreshadowing and more. But this is subjective.

3. Writing that doesn't appeal to a specific demographic, would probably be considered by that demographic as bad or boring. But that same writing would be considered good to the demographic that it does appeal to.


I know genres have a specific audience, but in my writing I try to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. So most of my questions are broad and generic and not genre based.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

There is an answer to the "how to entertain a reader" question. But it's not simple. 
There's steady pacing. Not meaning quick or slow, but consistent. Avoid including things that grind the story to a halt or feel rushed against the backdrop. This can include unnecessary exposition, too much navel gazing, irrelevant information, stilted dialogue, etc. 
During the course of a story the writer continually poses questions and reveals the answer. Ah-ha moments are key to an entertaining story. This helps avoid information dumps and promotes a steady pace. You create a question and pick a spot to give the answer (or part of the answer as required). But each answer should create new questions and should be spread throughout the entire text. 
Action should not include a blow by blow unless there is a point for knowing that the hero threw a right cross then a left uppercut. You're writing action, not giving a workshop on pugilism. 
Don't rely solely on the fantastic or grotesque for suspense. While it's cool to hack and slash, situational suspense is just as, if not more interesting and shows your versatility as a writer. 
Misdirection is another important aspect. If you can learn to disguise your plot and motives of characters, when the big reveal comes, it will have a tremendous impact. 

These are a few tools. There are more. Many more.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> There is an answer to the "how to entertain a reader" question. But it's not simple.
> There's steady pacing. Not meaning quick or slow, but consistent. Avoid including things that grind the story to a halt or feel rushed against the backdrop. This can include unnecessary exposition, too much navel gazing, irrelevant information, stilted dialogue, etc.
> During the course of a story the writer continually poses questions and reveals the answer. Ah-ha moments are key to an entertaining story. This helps avoid information dumps and promotes a steady pace. You create a question and pick a spot to give the answer (or part of the answer as required). But each answer should create new questions and should be spread throughout the entire text.
> Action should not include a blow by blow unless there is a point for knowing that the hero threw a right cross then a left uppercut. You're writing action, not giving a workshop on pugilism.
> ...


Thanks for the good information Brian D. Anderson.


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## Fortunate (Jul 31, 2018)

Bixso said:


> I still think "bad writing" is subjective.
> I don't like polka music, but polka music performers are still talented.


But would you not accept that in the world of polka music, there can be 'good' and 'bad' polka music, even if you don't like any of it?
Someone can create something that is technically a polka song, but which no one except the polka-musician's mother likes. Because it's a bad polka song.
Another polka musician could set the polka world on fire, and even crossover into the mainstream with a polka-hiphop fusion track that breaks out into the mainstream. Maybe even you would like it. This song is a good polka song.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> There is an answer to the "how to entertain a reader" question. But it's not simple.
> There's steady pacing. Not meaning quick or slow, but consistent. Avoid including things that grind the story to a halt or feel rushed against the backdrop. This can include unnecessary exposition, too much navel gazing, irrelevant information, stilted dialogue, etc.
> During the course of a story the writer continually poses questions and reveals the answer. Ah-ha moments are key to an entertaining story. This helps avoid information dumps and promotes a steady pace. You create a question and pick a spot to give the answer (or part of the answer as required). But each answer should create new questions and should be spread throughout the entire text.
> Action should not include a blow by blow unless there is a point for knowing that the hero threw a right cross then a left uppercut. You're writing action, not giving a workshop on pugilism.
> ...


All stuff one might encounter in an "Introduction To Writing Creative Fiction" course well before ever attempting a novel. KDP isn't a learning platform for writers, and no one at the introductory stage of learning creative writing should publish their work on Amazon. There are other sites for developing your craft (Wattpad, possibly?).


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

D. A. J. F. said:


> How do you entertain the reader?


By not producing a broad work to try and appeal to everyone that ends up with no particular genre label. {unless you want to appeal to those who like literary fiction} 
.
Genre does matter when it comes to entertaining the reader. For a reader to be entertained, they have to become immersed in the story and with the characters, given their expectations for their chosen genre of interest. There are certain expectations for crafting any given genre. Stick to those and you can't go wrong as regards entertainment.

As an example one famous author said, {in simple terms} a thriller isn't a thriller if it doesn't thrill.

I would recommend reading many books in a given genre that entertains you rather than "how to" books.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Decon said:


> By not producing a broad work to try and appeal to everyone that ends up with no particular genre label. {unless you want to appeal to those who like literary fiction}
> .
> Genre does matter when it comes to entertaining the reader. For a reader to be entertained, they have to become immersed in the story and with the characters, given their expectations for their chosen genre of interest. There are certain expectations for crafting any given genre. Stick to those and you can't go wrong as regards entertainment.
> 
> ...


Good points, thanks for the reply Decon.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I see multiple ways to entertain a reader. A few include:


Appealing to the reader's interest
Progressing comfortably, as the reader expects
Defying the reader's expectations at some critical point
Engaging the reader on the little stuff
The right topic with the right voice at the right time


Note that some of the above ought to contradict themselves. Individuals read books, but groups produce statistics. Readers get into different moods. Trends happen. You're always bowling at a moving target.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Dpock said:


> There are other sites for developing your craft (Wattpad, possibly?).


Wattpad seems interesting.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Douglas Milewski said:


> I see multiple ways to entertain a reader. A few include:
> 
> Appealing to the reader's interest
> Progressing comfortably, as the reader expects
> ...


Good information, thanks Douglas Milewski.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

D. A. J. F. said:


> How do you entertain the reader?


Super simple: give the reader what they want. 
The reader is a customer and 99% of them know (or believe they know) what they want. 
There's an old saying that every successful entrepreneur understands: The client is ALWAYS right.
Don't try to invent the wheel or educate the masses. Give them what they are looking for. Make them your fan and customer. Once you reach that stage you can offer them something different.

Here's how to blow away potential customers and once done, they will never come back:

"Hello, I want to buy a Jeep."
"Jeep. Are you sure? You know, KIA is said to have better handling." 
"I like Jeep, been driving them all the time. What have you got?"
"See, I realize 4wd, a rugged car, it's what you're after. I could get you a Jeep.  But if you've been driving them all these years, maybe it's time to discover something new and step up you experience."
"But with a Jeep I know what I'm getting. I like Jeep. It's all I want."
"Yeah, but have a look at this other car." 
"It doesn't look very solid. It does not resemble a Jeep. Is it even the same type of vehicle?"
"Sure. It's got 4 wheels right? Hahah. Tell you what, take it for a test drive for a full week, for free." 
The potential client returns after 30 minutes and lobs the keys to the salesman.
"How as your drive? Did you like it?  Version 2 has just hit the market. You want to try that one too?"
"Naw. You won't respect what I want, so I'm not buying anything. I'll just go somewhere else, and get myself a Jeep."

The key to everything that deals with entertainment is: empathy. Being able to put yourself in the mind of the reader.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I think the point is that entertaining is just as subjective as good and bad. How can you objectively say "this is entertaining?"

I found _The Avengers _incredibly boring. I turned it off after slogging through an hour of it. Obviously, many people disagree.

I find the movie_ Before Sunset _fascinating. When I showed it to my husband (many years ago), he couldn't get away from the screen fast enough.

So many people have told me to watch _The Expanse_. It was a real struggle to get through the pilot. I'm not watching anymore. I love _Killing Eve_. My sister, who loved_ Fleabag_, is struggling to get into it.

Etc, etc.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

Good points, atree and Crystal_.


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## Brian D. Anderson (Nov 4, 2019)

Dpock said:


> All stuff one might encounter in an "Introduction To Writing Creative Fiction" course well before ever attempting a novel. KDP isn't a learning platform for writers, and no one at the introductory stage of learning creative writing should publish their work on Amazon. There are other sites for developing your craft (Wattpad, possibly?).


I wouldn't know where one goes for that these days. I just answered a question. Though I do agree that if what I mentioned is new information, you aren't ready to publish. Not that it stops anyone. After nine years I still see questions like "do I need an editor?" pop up. 
I absolutely could do a deep dive into what makes a book entertaining. But I doubt anyone would care to read a 10k word response to a forum question. And I wouldn't care to spend that much time crafting one.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Brian D. Anderson said:


> I just answered a question.


Yeah. I didn't mean to be critical of your response. It just struck me as odd that someone in this forum wouldn't have had those bases covered already.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Good or bad doesn't matter. Do you entertain your intended audience? That's what matters. Good writing sells. Bad writing sells. Boring writing doesn't sell. Don't be a boring writer.


Personally I don't think bad writing sells if a correct interpretation. A book itself isn't sold based on good or bad writing, since many people make their first purchase of an author without having read anything by that author other than the back cover. The quality of the writing impact additional sales of other titles by that author. And in that case good writing sells, and good storytelling sells. I doubt bad or horrible writing will sell unless there is good storytelling.

But what some people call weak, mediocre, or generic writing may resonate with one person and not another. Or it may mean an author needs to write a few more novels to grasp basic ideas. 
Many authors may cringe when reading the material because we see the mistakes. But a reader who isn't an author is looking to be entertained. And in being entertained they aren't looking at the how poorly a sentence is being crafted or a trope overdone unless it brings them out of their entertainment.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Dpock said:


> There are other sites for developing your craft (Wattpad, possibly?).


Technically, Wattpad is not a site for developing craft.... it's for exhibiting final results. A writer can _use_ Wattpad as an open forum to garner reaction/opinions to the work, but A) it's not a guarantee to receive any type of feedback, and B) from my experience, most of the "feedback" is in the vein of "I love it! it's sooooo interesting!! Please post more chapters NOWWWW!!!" (I.e., not very constructive or detailed.)

I believe there are likely some WP groups of dedicated writers who may serve as a critique group for fellow members, but 98% of WP readers are probably not inclined to be part of such gatherings.

Note: it's been a few years since I visited WP, so it's possible things may have changed. At that time there was a TON of One Direction fan-fic. Nowadays it's probably mostly BTS fan-fic.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

tensen said:


> Personally I don't think bad writing sells if a correct interpretation. A book itself isn't sold based on good or bad writing, since many people make their first purchase of an author without having read anything by that author other than the back cover. The quality of the writing impact additional sales of other titles by that author. And in that case good writing sells, and good storytelling sells. I doubt bad or horrible writing will sell unless there is good storytelling.


I think you're overthinking this. The reader decides what's good or bad, with entertainment value being their true criteria. It's an entirely subjective measure.

When I write a book, I don't care if the reader thinks it's good. What I want to hear is: "Your book kept me up all night."


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

The best use for Wattpad is as a marketing tool. I wouldn't post there unless I had published work gets monetized through the free stuff.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Fortunate said:


> But would you not accept that in the world of polka music, there can be 'good' and 'bad' polka music, even if you don't like any of it?
> Someone can create something that is technically a polka song, but which no one except the polka-musician's mother likes. Because it's a bad polka song.


This could be for many reasons. He's probably not marketing or advertising himself hard enough (which is part of my issue. I'm going to start to do more marketing and promoting), or his songs have a weird niche value.

Doesn't mean he's a bad polka musician. Even if he is, maybe he'll gain supporters for satire reasons, or being a parody or novelty act. So there is no caveat in some cases.

How this correlates to the literary world, is that sometimes you may need to do more advertising/write more books to push your name out there, some stories may only be interested by a certain group. Doesn't mean it's a bad story.



> Another polka musician could set the polka world on fire, and even crossover into the mainstream with a polka-hiphop fusion track that breaks out into the mainstream. Maybe even you would like it. This song is a good polka song.


Then it wouldn't be Polka. It would be a hip hop song that has polka samples/influences. Polka is a very specific music genre, and if you tried to fusion it together with hip hop, it would just be considered hip hop, hence I would probably be keen on listening to it, rather than authentic polka.

Maroon 5 started off doing sappy rock music, and I wasn't really into their music then. When they completely overhauled their music style, and went to a more R&B/Hip-Hop theme, was when I started to like their music. So you see.

How this correlates to the literary world very quickly.

Is that everything is subjective, and I think it's very very rare that an author puts out a book that isn't entertaining. Yeah it may have developmental hiccups (even the most critically acclaimed stories have giant ass plot holes), and a typo or few, (I tried to contact you to edit my book as an indie author, but you had to get your nails done lol) so you see?


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## VisitasKeat (Oct 15, 2018)

What does a career counselor advise? Choose the correct stream, the one which you like, have passion for. If you like baseball, practice hard and master that sport. Or, if you like to gaze at the stars, become an astronomer. Become a botonist if you like plants, or, become an automobile mechanic if you like to creep underneath a car. 

Similarly, we need a career counselor, an author counselor, who is able to identify the genre we are best suited for, from the vast range of genres. And that be the primary genre where we write, our area of specialization. It's a very tough and time consuming job. Most of the times we do that identification by ourselves, and unfortunately we make wrong choices when we get inspired by the success stories of many authors on forums. We try to write in their genre.

Imitation is a wrong approach. 

Imagine a short kiddo aspiring to become a basketball superstar! 

So, correct identification for the purpose of genre suitability is a major factor for long-term sustainability. 

And understanding that writing and marketing are two different but important components in the writing career would be yet another major factor for long-term sustainability.

The race ain't over yet, even for the bestselling authors. Who knows, they may become prawns tomorrow! We are all part of a marathon... a writathon that demands stamina and a strong mindset. Hence, wearing the correct outfit, eating the right food, sitting in the right posture, getting sound sleep, taking care of health and eyes, completing daily chores on time, maintaining composure at office, staying cheerful in real world and social media, are all equally important for a healthy lifestyle.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

VisitasKeat said:


> What does a career counselor advise? Choose the correct stream, the one which you like, have passion for. If you like baseball, practice hard and master that sport. Or, if you like to gaze at the stars, become an astronomer. Become a botonist if you like plants, or, become an automobile mechanic if you like to creep underneath a car.
> 
> Similarly, we need a career counselor, an author counselor, who is able to identify the genre we are best suited for, from the vast range of genres. And that be the primary genre where we write, our area of specialization. It's a very tough and time consuming job. Most of the times we do that identification by ourselves, and unfortunately we make wrong choices when we get inspired by the success stories of many authors on forums. We try to write in their genre.
> 
> ...


Good advice.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Jena H said:


> Technically, Wattpad is not a site for developing craft.... it's for exhibiting final results. A writer can _use_ Wattpad as an open forum to garner reaction/opinions to the work, but A) it's not a guarantee to receive any type of feedback, and B) from my experience, most of the "feedback" is in the vein of "I love it! it's sooooo interesting!! Please post more chapters NOWWWW!!!" (I.e., not very constructive or detailed.)


It's a place for new writers to gain some experience, because as we all know, the best method to improve your writing is to write. In that sense, it IS a place to develop your craft.

I never used Wattpad, but I know my writing would still be godawful if I hadn't published 750K words on my blog (through Webfictionguide) before publishing anything on Amazon. Now it's at least readable.


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## D. A. J. F. (Mar 29, 2019)

SaltObelisk said:


> As for why an author would quit--for me, it's the feedback. My pen names have about a 3.7 average on goodreads, so it's not all bad, but the bad reviews break me. I got a one-star the other day that raised my blood pressure. lol.
> 
> Two years ago, I wrote a series that I've never released. I wrote it right after my dad died. That world was my happy place during a very dark time, and I don't want mean people in my happy place. I'm already a very depressed and disabled person and I don't need more reasons to be sad.


That's a touching story.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Some quit due to bad reviews. I have many bad reviews, and I don't care about the bad reviews as I can't control that, and I don't pay that any attention. I've also had good reviews, so it's even keel. It's just I feel due to my disability and being autistic, the literary word is also racist/homophobic, I feel getting my ideas across is pointless. I'm going to continue to write, but I refuse to ignore the pink elephant smoking a cigar in the corner. I'm still young, and being a millennial in this generation is tough, but I'm going to keep on keeping on I guess. 

I know I can write, and I don't give a damn if negative forces doubt me, to tell you the honest to god truth.


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

Some people quit because they realize they cannot write.  Of course the average person can read and write and think that since they can do that and  coupled with "I have this amazing story in my head for years" somehow that will translate into a good book. 

Then there are those that cannot run their own business. Not understanding numbers,  the market and basic advertising.  

Also there are those that ignore good feedback. The one and two star reviews that mention poor writing, uninteresting characters and  much more are ignored. Excuses are made,  conspiracy theories  abound, somehow everyone is wrong! They are out to get me! 

Finally there are those that ask the wrong questions  or ask the right ones for the wrong reasons. 
"How do I sell more books?" should instead be said as, "Why are my books not selling?" 
Most authors do not want the right answers, they want validation for their question.  How many threads on here  concerning blurbs, covers  front matter etc that ask for help and by the end of it, the author does nothing? Thousands.


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## cake (Mar 1, 2020)

tensen said:


> But what some people call weak, mediocre, or generic writing may resonate with one person and not another.


Yeah. People love to make fun of lowbrow popular books, especially if it's a romance. What they seem to overlook is how catering to a particular audience, whether intentionally or naturally, is a special skill. Also, a considerable amount of time and dedication goes into completing a book, so it's not like anyone can instantly come up with a "better" one.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I haven't given up but merely taken a break. A really long break for over a year. It's been what I needed. I don't blame anyone except myself: I followed the popular advice out there to publish often and burned tf out. Also I wrote a couple books in a hurry that failed and were wastes of time. Never again. 

I can feel the desire to write returning. It will be different this time. No more trying to do it like everyone else because that made me miserable. I wager many people quit because they can't get the level of success the big ones have. For me, being realistic meant I needed some time to clear my head and enjoy other aspects of my life. I love to write and will always do it.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

I have been around for a long time since 2013. I took 7 years off. Work, stress plays an important part.

The number one reason many people think like this. TheY get the book edited, get 4 and five star reviews promote to the world And sat back and watch the sales roll in. For most they will be lucky to sell anything outside of friends and family. They knew they had a bestseller. What happened?

Five star reviews, great media promotions, great editing and a beautiful cover. That is not enough.

I’m one of the few who had a book go viral and stay on Amazon top 100 paid sales for 3 months in 2013.

Now I put four more books out there that just don’t sell. I had one sale. People download the one free book I put out. Bottom line you have to have something between the book covers that is special and readers want to read. Most don’t and my 4 new releases don’t have it either.

All anyone can do is start on the next book and don’t worry if it sells or not. Easy for me to say I’m not working now. But also I have no income.

High expectations I see it all the time people have a new book and they are so excited and than it does not sell.

Most people here do not sell. I normally can sell one or two books a month. I have a backlist of almost 30 books and only one series was popular and one other a few sales here and there. Most of my books never sell. If still get some sales from my 2 old series. On a good month 5 dollars on a bad month 2.00 dollars and a few months no sales. Last month I made about 11 cents from amazon and through other vendors about 2 dollars. This month I will make about 10 dollars and that has not happened in a year. So far for March I have no sales anywhere.

If your trying to make a living selling books good luck on that.

Very few people make enough to quick their day job.

Write because you want to. You might never sell a book. If that bothers you do something else besides writing. Most will be lucky to even sell one book. I have a large backlist of books that is the only reason I can get a few sales a month. My new books are not selling.

Good luck everyone. Keep expectations low and you’ll be okay.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Because they ran out of toilet roll.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I didn't give up; life happened to where I literally had no time to write. A sick relative I helped take care of passed away this past summer, homeschooling five kids before that, after-school sports programs, marriage counseling followed by my divorce, etc. I now have my time back. I'm getting my systems into place as much has changed in the last four years. In the scheme of things taking a few years off because life happens is okay.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Yep, best answer- Life happens.


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## solo (Dec 19, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> All the above and then some. I'm sure a few read the money threads here and assume that's what happens when you throw a book up for sale, and then get mad/discouraged when it doesn't happen for them. Writing is great work, but it's still work. Best job in the world--we get paid to make [crap] up. I've seen it in tradpublishing and in indie--writers who don't have discipline or realistic expectations quit eventually.
> 
> Will this be me? Nope. I've never quit on anything in my life and I sure as heck won't quit on myself. The market will change, the methods will change, but I'll keep writing and publishing until I mentally or physically cannot do so any more.


 . I write because I want to write. I never even expected my first book to be read. I just wanted the ASIN # because getting an ISBN number in my home country is such a pain. Then, I got caught up in the algorithm cha-cha for a while. Now, I write on a subject because it interests me, so thence my forays into science fiction, etc. Except for erotica. Probably need more experience.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Lisa Grace said:


> I didn't give up; life happened to where I literally had no time to write. A sick relative I helped take care of passed away this past summer, homeschooling five kids before that, after-school sports programs, marriage counseling followed by my divorce, etc. I now have my time back. I'm getting my systems into place as much has changed in the last four years. In the scheme of things taking a few years off because life happens is okay.


You took an indefinite break, which is fine.

I'm talking about quitting/throwing in the towel for writing, not taking breaks which is something completely different.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

Trioxin 245 said:


> Some people quit because they realize they cannot write. Of course the average person can read and write and think that since they can do that and coupled with "I have this amazing story in my head for years" somehow that will translate into a good book.


Dismissive, and your opinion. That still shouldn't make a writer quit. If they enjoy writing, and it's haphazard writing. Who gives a damn? Still write. Yeah they will encounter "haters", and won't gain as big of a following if they had a better craft, but so what. Who gives a damn? As long as they enjoy writing, they should continue.



> Then there are those that cannot run their own business. Not understanding numbers, the market and basic advertising.


Now that's something different. Marketing and promoting is very difficult, and luck is involved in most of it. Especially being that people refuse to share their secrets and keywords and whatever the hell else they use to get readers. So it's not entirely someone's fault in this category. They have to be fortunate enough.



> Also there are those that ignore good feedback. The one and two star reviews that mention poor writing, uninteresting characters and much more are ignored. Excuses are made, conspiracy theories abound, somehow everyone is wrong! They are out to get me!


Tell you what, why don't you edit my next book. Exactly. You're not an editor, and editing a book is very complex. You have to pay someone first of all, second of all, the person you pay is a human and isn't perfect.

If you want to complain about typo's, then heaven help us all. There's nothing I can do. Don't read the book, I'm not quitting because there was a typo or two in the book. It's the end of the world as we know it. 

Third of all, this goes back to being dismissive. Let the writer, write. Even if he's a bad writer, keep your sentiments to yourself. If you see a bunch of 1 star reviews, don't buy the book. Don't force someone else to not purchase the book/read the story. In addition, don't you dare undermine the author either. You don't know the whole story (pun intended). Hate the story, but don't hate the author please. Unless in extreme rare conditions an author puts out a damaging book, (even then there are caveats) you should still respect the writer/authors art.



> Finally there are those that ask the wrong questions or ask the right ones for the wrong reasons.
> "How do I sell more books?" should instead be said as, "Why are my books not selling?"
> Most authors do not want the right answers, they want validation for their question. How many threads on here concerning blurbs, covers front matter etc that ask for help and by the end of it, the author does nothing? Thousands.


How do you know if they take the advice or not? You don't. I'm sure majority of people (myself included) on this message board take advice from those that are successful. It's just many choose not to reveal their secrets, and that's fine and dandy. They aren't obligated to at all. I just don't think it's correct to assume writers quit for that reason.

Many of us are willing to take changes, at the right degree. Some things I feel are dismissive, and the book will still be a bestseller, breaking all the rules. It's okay to go against normality. It doesn't automatically mean bad. Yes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it; but this idiom doesn't apply to everything. There are certain things an author should take into consideration yes, but they don't need to change everything if they don't wish to, especially if it has no impact on the story. You may not agree, and it's probably going against what is popular, but so what. So this is kinda dismissive as to why an author quits.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Bixso said:


> How do you know if they take the advice or not? You don't. I'm sure majority of people (myself included) on this message board take advice from those that are successful. It's just many choose not to reveal their secrets, and that's fine and dandy.


What kind of secrets are you referring to?


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

What are you going on about, Bixso?

Trioxin was answering the question OF THIS THREAD.

Which was *Why do you think* so many writers give up so fast? (emphasis mine)

The question was *not* Why do you think so many writers SHOULD give up?

Nothing Trioxin said was dismissive. It was a simple answer that many writers THEMSELVES have given as to why they stopped writing.


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

AlecHutson said:


> What kind of secrets are you referring to?


For example, keywords, and Amazon ads. It's very confusing and complicated, and I wish people here would help some of us out that are struggling with that. They don't have to, (and why would you in some instances) but it would be nice to have a little help with that.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Bixso said:


> For example, keywords, and Amazon ads. It's very confusing and complicated, and I wish people here would help some of us out that are struggling with that. They don't have to, (and why would you in some instances) but it would be nice to have a little help with that.


I don't think there's really any secret. When I release a new book I just choose a few words that represent my book. Amazon ads I research a bunch of similar titles and advertise on their pages. Do you think it's more than that?


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## Bixso (Mar 29, 2019)

nail file said:


> What are you going on about, Bixso?
> 
> Trioxin was answering the question OF THIS THREAD.
> 
> ...


Which is fine. I'm not trying to debate or argue. They are entitled to whatever they wish to say, and also entitled to their opinion. I have a right to voice my opinion as well, and reply and "debunk" most of that.

I'm just saying why they shouldn't give up. As I feel once a writer, always a writer. Well in my opinion. I feel a writer shouldn't get overwhelmed and quit over reasons like that. If anything, stuff like that should make them prove others wrong, and keep going. That's just what I think anyways.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Bixso said:


> For example, keywords, and Amazon ads. It's very confusing and complicated, and I wish people here would help some of us out that are struggling with that. They don't have to, (and why would you in some instances) but it would be nice to have a little help with that.


Personally, I think the "BIG SECRET" that many of us are missing is that *THERE IS NO ONE, SPECIFIC SECRET.* You mention keywords and Amazon ads. And yes, the "right" keywords or the "perfect" ad can possibly have a big impact for authors.

But the thing to remember is, nobody can tell you what those keywords are for your specific book, and nobody can say what ad to run on Amazon or FB or whatever.

And, most importantly, the biggest "secret" of all is that, even if every popular, successful author shared all their "secrets," their strategies and their tactics may not work for anyone else. Just because some tactics work for Author A, doesn't mean those very same tactics will work for Author B, even if B does exactly the same things. There are too many variables.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Oh, my ... the secret. I can't believe someone let it out of the bag. Nobody is supposed to talk about it. Ugh. Somebody is being kicked out of the club.


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## nail file (Sep 12, 2018)

Bixso said:


> I have a right to voice my opinion as well,


Absolutely.



Bixso said:


> and reply


No one said you didn't or couldn't or shouldn't.



Bixso said:


> and "debunk" most of that.


You didn't debunk squat. You were addressing a poster and 'debunking' something THEY NEVER SAID. That was my point.

If you're going to disagree with someone, at least disagree with what they actually said and not what you read into it.



Bixso said:


> I'm just saying why they shouldn't give up. As I feel once a writer, always a writer. Well in my opinion. I feel a writer shouldn't get overwhelmed and quit over reasons like that. If anything, stuff like that should make them prove others wrong, and keep going. That's just what I think anyways.


And I don't disagree with any of that.

Except your 'fisking' of their answer was so far off what they actually said that it was boggling to see. You addressed the commentor over things that they didn't even say. They gave the reasons why they thought people give you. YOU ATTACKED the commentor and tsk-tsked them for saying that was why writers SHOULD give up.

I don't know why I bother. You do that all the time just so you can champion the underdog. Even at the expense of twisting someone's words around so it looks like they attack you or the issue you hold so clear.


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## cake (Mar 1, 2020)

Sometimes I want to give up, but I have unfinished books on pre-order, so I can't, lol.


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