# Self Publish With BookBaby



## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

One of my friends found the site, and off to investigate I went.

Here's the quick write up: http://topublishornotto.blogspot.com/2011/04/self-publish-with-bookbaby.html

Thoughts? Comments? Anyone used them yet?


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Their very basic service, to convert a book and then upload it to the main 3 distributors (plus sony), is $99 plus $19 bucks a year.

Wait, why am I paying 20 bucks a year forever for a one time service? Oh, that's right. Because I'm stupid.

Add in another 20 bucks for an ISBN for each work you submit, in addition to that 100 bucks to start.

So...yeah. If you have a really, really complicated file full of graphs and charts, maybe it'd be worth it to save yourself the hair pulling. But they're just another Smashwords, only you pay them, and they keep no commission. Why do they keep no commission? Because they don't expect you to make any money.

Smashwords, Amazon, Pubit: all these don't make a dime unless you do. That means they're invested. That means they want you to succeed.

Bookbrewer, Bookbaby: avoid. They're preying on the lazy, the unwilling to learn, those who'll send their Word doc plus several hundred dollars and then wonder why their book is languishing in the 300k rankings at Amazon.


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## John H. Carroll (Nov 26, 2010)

^  What he said ^


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

The website claims they pay weekly. That's a little surprising since the retailers don't pay that often, which would mean BookBaby is floating you the cash until Amazon pays them? Definitely suggests a site that doesn't expect their clients' books to sell.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

So, from my math, you needed to sell about $1000 per book, and $20.00 for each year you're with them and then you're ahead on BookBaby.  No one here is interested in that offer?

Or are you thinking it's an out and out scam?  You pay them and never see the money back?

I know a few people have been floating around the idea of completely moving away from the royalty concept to the fee for services model.  This is it.  

I certainly understand how their business model works.  But unless they really are scamming, I'm not seeing how someone who is willing to do the legwork doesn't end up ahead.  But I'd interested to see what you think.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Well-said, Half-Orc! I think any place that requires you to pay any sort of annual/monthly fee to put your book up for sale is a red flag. I'd rather stick with the investor companies that actually will do what they can to help you succeed and sell.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

RM Prioleau said:


> Well-said, Half-Orc! I think any place that requires you to pay any sort of annual/monthly fee to put your book up for sale is a red flag. I'd rather stick with the investor companies that actually will do what they can to help you succeed and sell.


RM, what do you see Smashwords doing that BookBaby doesn't? (Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.)

Also, your cover rocks. Seriously gorgeous.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Their very basic service, to convert a book and then upload it to the main 3 distributors (plus sony), is $99 plus $19 bucks a year.
> 
> Wait, why am I paying 20 bucks a year forever for a one time service? Oh, that's right. Because I'm stupid.
> 
> ...


Yeah, doesn't seem worth it at all. I'd go so far as to say that indies should even try not to use Smashwords to get on iBooks, if possible. There's no reason to give up a percentage of every sale just because Smashwords uploaded your book for you and gave you an ISBN.

At some point I expect we will be able to upload directly to Kobo too, at which point Smashwords would be useful for Diesel and Smashwords itself.


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## JoanReeves (Jan 4, 2011)

Hi, I'm new here. (In other words, if I'm doing something wrong, just tell me. Don't flog me in public.)

I don't know anything about BookBaby, but I'm personally opposed to spending my hard-earned money on anything that I can do myself. There are a lot of businesses springing up now that offer to do your format, conversion, cover, and upload for you. I get email solicitations every week about them or requests for me to write about them. (I freelance write too.)

Don't know whether this is the place to post this, but if you're looking for other digital publishing opps, you might try XinXii.com.

I've written a series of articles on them on my blog SlingWords. (Hmm. First time I've used the link thing. If that doesn't show up, the blog is SlingWords.blogspot.com. (They did NOT pay me by the way.)

XinXii is a European Digital Publishing Platform. (Think Kindle in Europe.) Very easy to use. Just getting going so there's growth potential there. The interesting thing is you don't have to be in Europe to use them. My print books sold well in several countries so I'm hoping to expand readership there with my ebooks that I'm publishing.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Asher MacDonald said:


> Yeah, doesn't seem worth it at all. I'd go so far as to say that indies should even try not to use Smashwords to get on iBooks, if possible. There's no reason to give up a percentage of every sale just because Smashwords uploaded your book for you and gave you an ISBN.
> 
> At some point I expect we will be able to upload directly to Kobo too, at which point Smashwords would be useful for Diesel and Smashwords itself.


Don't you need like a mac and a subscription to the ipod store to get on the ibookstore by yourself?


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

I do think a service like this is useful. Having one place to manage books across all retailers is probably worth $20 a year. Especially if they add the smaller ones like Kobo and Diesel. However, I am suspicious of that payment schedule unless they mean you get paid within a week of retailers sending them the money. But that's not how the website presents it.

Also, what happens to your books if BookBaby fails? This is an issue with Smashwords too*. If the sites disappear one day, does everything uploaded from them stay on Amazon, etc? If so, how do you get paid?

There's nothing wrong with the idea of these services, but anything that takes the control out of the writer's hand is a risk. We all have to balance convenience with loss of control.

* I am not suggesting this is likely. Just possible.


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## JoanReeves (Jan 4, 2011)

jessicamorse is right: "so, what happens to your books if BookBaby fails?"

I know a lot of Penguin authors right now who are wondering if they'll get royalties because of Borders failing while owing Penguin something like 40 million.

Be careful about giving up control to your books retailing.

A few years ago, I can't remember which social media this was, but they shut down and everyone who had fans on there had no access to the mailing lists they'd created because they didn't "own" the lists - the website did.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

Half-Orc said what needed to be said.

The only thing I will add, since I blogged about it today, is that you have to REALLY count your pennies pre-publication.  If you are in the hole for a large chunk before you even submit?  You may never make it back.

Are we writers or hobbyists?


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

KerylR said:


> RM, what do you see Smashwords doing that BookBaby doesn't? (Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.)
> 
> Also, your cover rocks. Seriously gorgeous.


Smashwords doesn't charge you. They don't ask you to lay out money.



KerylR said:


> Don't you need like a mac and a subscription to the ipod store to get on the ibookstore by yourself?


No you don't. You can publish directly to the iBooks.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

There have always been a lot of people out there looking for ways to seperate aspiring authors from their money.

The golden rule is that money flows towards the author. The exception to this rule is legitimate expenses. These are the things you should pay for such as paper, ink, pens, your computer, editing, cover art and whatever marketing you choose to do. (Edit: You can do your own cover art, editing and marketing but you are paying in the form of time and effort). Bookbaby doesn't fall into that category. They're looking to make money doing something you can get for less or free elsewhere. (EDIT: The word parasite comes to mind)

Bookbaby distributes to all the people that Smashwords does. The difference is that you are paying them money to do so. Bookbaby doesn't market or edit your book. If you want them to do your cover, it will cost you an extra $99 to $199. They also have more fees if your book needs additional formating and an isbn (which is required for the apple store). I can't think of any reason to use them. It's a deal that looks attractive but so did a lot of the vanity press operations and we all know how bad those are.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

KerylR said:


> Don't you need like a mac and a subscription to the ipod store to get on the ibookstore by yourself?


You need to upload through a Mac and you need an ISBN -- dunno about the subscription.

I'm not saying it's easy, but if you're serious about self-publishing and you have decent sales, it seems like it's well worth the expense to upload yourself. You could rent time on a Mac at a Kinkos to upload.

Diesel isn't set up yet for indies to upload directly, but they are working on it -- I recently asked.

Here's the info for Kobo:



> Sign-up quickly and easily
> Just contact us at [email protected] to set up an account and start bringing your content to a whole new audience of readers on the go. We'll send you our Publisher's Agreement for review and begin discussion to determine how best to receive and process your ePub files. If you are new to the world of eBooks, we can help you get set up, or connect you with a distributor that will do the hard work for you. Is your content in some format other than ePub? Then perhaps you'd like to take advantage of our&#8230;


I emailed them a few days ago and have yet to receive a reply.

Smashwords getting 10% of iBooks, of Kobo, of Diesel -- that could add up to quite a lot. If you can keep that 10% for yourself, I don't see a real argument for not doing so. Let Smashwords make their money by selling through Smashwords.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

kyrin said:


> No you don't. You can publish directly to the iBooks.


Unless some changes have come along, you've always needed a Mac to go direct...


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Half-Orc said:


> Unless some changes have come along, you've always needed a Mac to go direct...


I was looking at the guide for publishing directly via the iTunes Connect web portal which can be used from any computer than can use iTunes. For publishing ebooks, Apple posted these technical specs. You can see them when you log into iTunes Connect or the guide on MacWorld.


An Intel-based Mac running OS X 10.5.8 or later 
At least 1 GB RAM 
QuickTime 7.0.3 or later. This is so you can encode and deliver content using our dedicated software. 
At least 10 GB of available hard drive space (more for larger catalogs) is recommended. 
A broadband internet connection with an upload rate of 1 MB/sec or faster is recommended. 

I haven't tried it yet because I am happy using Smashwords right now and Apple mentions a delay in payment for individuals publishing directly through them. The dedicated software requires a mac but an emulator might work but I'm not sure.

EDIT: I'll probably experiment later on and find out for sure now that I'm curious.

EDIT: I know the requirements say you need a mac. I meant to mention that I'm using a mac emulator for the test. The web portal doesn't require a mac. It's the dedicated software that is the issue.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

> An Intel-based *Mac* running OS X 10.5.8 or later


I don't see how this could be any clearer that you have to have a Mac to go direct with them.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Half-Orc said:


> I don't see how this could be any clearer that you have to have a Mac to go direct with them.


I was editing the post and screwing things up. I left out some stuff.

EDIT: For some reason, I have problems making posts that are longer than ten lines long. The cursor keeps going back to the top of the window and I can't see what I'm typing or editing. I usually have to go back and edit my posts or use word / notepad to write everything up then post it. It doesn't help matters when I am in a rush or distracted by my daughter clamouring for me to paint her custom my little pony.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

kyrin said:


> There have always been a lot of people out there looking for ways to seperate aspiring authors from their money.


Yep, I've blogged about several of them.



> The golden rule is that money flows towards the author. The exception to this rule is legitimate expenses. These are the things you should pay for such as paper, ink, pens, your computer, editing, cover art and whatever marketing you choose to do. (Edit: You can do your own cover art, editing and marketing but you are paying in the form of time and effort). Bookbaby doesn't fall into that category. They're looking to make money doing something you can get for less or free elsewhere. (EDIT: The word parasite comes to mind)


It's called Yog's Law, and I've blogged quite a bit about it, too.

No, you can't do it for free elsewhere. Anywhere you sign up to sell your book takes a cut. Smashwords takes 15% on top of whatever the base seller charges and subtracts out the processing fees. If you go straight to the seller they take their cut.

And, as you may recall, before the indie revolution, charging for editing and cover art was also considered something that parasites did. After all, a good publisher paid for those things for you. Yog's Law is changing as the indies begin to change how books are produced and published. We now pay for things no respectable writer would have ever paid for ten years ago.



> Bookbaby distributes to all the people that Smashwords does. The difference is that you are paying them money to do so. Bookbaby doesn't market or edit your book. If you want them to do your cover, it will cost you an extra $99 to $199. They also have more fees if your book needs additional formating and an isbn (which is required for the apple store). I can't think of any reason to use them. It's a deal that looks attractive but so did a lot of the vanity press operations and we all know how bad those are.


The reason to use them is once you paid the fee, everything you make is yours to keep. If you sell more than $1000.00 in copies per book, you make more than you would with Smashwords. If you go with Smashwords you pay them 15% of every copy you sell. If you sell more than 1000.00 worth of copies, (ie they get more than 150.00) you end up paying them more money than you'd pay to BookBaby.

So assuming you think you can sell more than 1000.00 worth of your book, and more than 129.00 each additional year to pay the upkeep fee, I'm not seeing why it's a bad deal. And, unless I've missed the point of his argument Koranth seems to indicate that taking the lower money deal up front, for the longer and and better pay off on the tail end, is the good plan. I'm not seeing how this isn't an application of his argument for indie publishing in general taken one step further.

Is my math wrong? Is it a scam? Do you think they won't really pay? Does Smashwords offer some other feature I don't know about to make that 15% for as long as I keep my book with them worth it?


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

KerylR said:


> RM, what do you see Smashwords doing that BookBaby doesn't? (Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.)
> 
> Also, your cover rocks. Seriously gorgeous.


As a previous poster said, Smashwords doesn't charge you monthy/annual fees to have your stuff up there. Also, you may want to check sites like Writer's Beware to see if they have anything to say about BookBaby. http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/

And thank you for the compliment!


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

oliewankanobe said:


> Half-Orc said what needed to be said.
> 
> The only thing I will add, since I blogged about it today, is that you have to REALLY count your pennies pre-publication. If you are in the hole for a large chunk before you even submit? You may never make it back.
> 
> Are we writers or hobbyists?


Interesting question.

In econ terms this is a question of the discount rate on your money. How much is money in your hands right now, your sunk costs if you will, worth compared to a potential income stream? You know exactly how long it takes you to earn the money to pay for BookBaby. By that same token you know how much the time it'll take you to sign up with Smashwords costs. But, how much is the potentially greater income stream from signing up with BookBaby worth after you've applied your discount rate? The discount rate is your potential for the book not making back what you've put into it. If you can imagine a graph with zero dollars in sales on one side and your full cost in sales at the other, the percentage that you'll land on any one of those numbers, with zero at full cost and 100 at zero, is your discount rate. (Yes, that's a very dirty approximation, among other things we aren't taking time into account here.) If you know you can make your costs back, then there's no reason to discount the income stream. If you don't think you can, then you need to add that potential for loss into your calculations for the value of a potential income stream.

If you're a complete unknown with no following, I'd suggest Smashwords. Your discount rate is too high to make the up front investment worthwhile. If you've got a following, and you're already selling safely more than a thousand dollars a year in each of your books, BookBaby sounds like a smart decision.

So, are we hobbyists or are we professionals? Do we do the math, crunch the numbers, project future earnings and then find ways to maximize our profits and potential cash flows even if they do involve greater immediate outlays? Or do we limit our earnings for the safety of lower start up costs? A hobbyist doesn't bother with risk calculations. A professional may be risk adverse or not, but he takes the time to figure out the risk before sinking his cash into the investment.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

RM Prioleau said:


> As a previous poster said, Smashwords doesn't charge you monthy/annual fees to have your stuff up there. Also, you may want to check sites like Writer's Beware to see if they have anything to say about BookBaby. http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/
> 
> And thank you for the compliment!


Nothing on Writer's Beware. (That's part of why I was asking if anyone here had used them. They do CDbaby as well, and that seems to work pretty well. My sense is they're new into books. But if anyone had been burned it would be good to know.)

And yes, I totally get it's an upfront fee. But if you sell enough copies, you make more by paying the upfront fee than you would if you paid Smashwords a chunk of your sales.

That's the point, the service gets paid one way or another. And you said you preferred a service that got paid with you and will do what it can to help you sell your books. What does Smashwords do to help sell your books that BookBaby doesn't? Once again, I'm not being argumentative, and I do like Smashwords, (I'm with them for my non Kindle, non BN platforms) but besides the ease of free coupons I'm not seeing much Smashwords does to help you sell your books. But if they do more and I'm missing it, I'd like to know because then I can write better articles.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

Harper Alibeck said:


> What David said, plus - I'd rather pour the money into cover design or editing.


I'd rather not pour money. Any dolt can do cover design. Given enough space & time from a piece of writing, any dolt can edit it too. Easy for me to say, I have a great friend or two who is an eagle-eyed editor.


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

Sounds like a middle-man scam to me. They do the up-load, they get the money from the sellers, then they turn around and give you your money. What if you sold 5,000 books and they told you, you sold 1,000 books. Middle-man money in their pocket.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

MikeAngel said:


> I'd rather not pour money. Any dolt can do cover design. Given enough space & time from a piece of writing, any dolt can edit it too. Easy for me to say, I have a great friend or two who is an eagle-eyed editor.


I can't decide if you're saying anyone can *claim* they can do cover design regardless of skill, or you seriously think that any Joe Schmoe can use MS Paint, letters, and a single stock image and create a good cover....I really hope you mean the first.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

sandynight said:


> Sounds like a middle-man scam to me. They do the up-load, they get the money from the sellers, then they turn around and give you your money. What if you sold 5,000 books and they told you, you sold 1,000 books. Middle-man money in their pocket.


Ummm... isn't that also a potential problem for Smashwords as well? (Hell, how do we know how many books we've really sold on Amazon? We take their word for it.)

As I've asked before, is it a scam? Anyone have any proof or even rumors of that? It's one thing if they don't pay, or mess with the numbers, or any thing like that. I'd say that's a very legitimate concern for any new self publish operation.

At the same time, if it's not a scam, moving to a set price fee for service plan seems like the way to maximize our profits as writers. We don't pay our editors or cover artists for their contributions with an eternal cut of our profits. Why have the sales mechanism be any different?


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

Well... no offense, but all this back and forth still ignores the issue of charging that $20 fee at all... like, ever.

And I don't take amazon's word for it unless you are implying they actually lie about/don't report sales.  Isn't that getting a bit far afield and... well... silly.

It's starting to sound less like a "friend told me" question and more like you work for them.  No offense... just a wee bit weird.


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

KerylR said:


> Ummm... isn't that also a potential problem for Smashwords as well? (Hell, how do we know how many books we've really sold on Amazon? We take their word for it.)
> 
> As I've asked before, is it a scam? Anyone have any proof or even rumors of that? It's one thing if they don't pay, or mess with the numbers, or any thing like that. I'd say that's a very legitimate concern for any new self publish operation.
> 
> At the same time, if it's not a scam, moving to a set price fee for service plan seems like the way to maximize our profits as writers. We don't pay our editors or cover artists for their contributions with an eternal cut of our profits. Why have the sales mechanism be any different?


Sorry I didn't get back here last night. 
I would trust the sellers because they are getting a cut of the sale. Smashwords is a seller and distributor and gets its commission of sales. But when a non-seller comes along to distribute I have to question this. And they say just pay us $19.00 a year and you get to keep all the money? What if a big seller came along? Are they going to be happy with $19 a year. And exactly what is that $19 for anyway, maintenance? Of what? Your sales money, that's what! 
I looked at their site and they have only a handful of sellers they distribute to, one is Kindle and Pubit which are the easiest ones to get on to. A writer does not need a distributor to upload their book to them. 
Now if they want to charge a flat fee to format and do covers, that is one thing. But I can't imagine anyone wanting to givie up their KDP dashboard and sales data. 
If you're looking to get a book onto a store that requires things like a minimum of books or a mac or whatever, be careful who you hand the keys to.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

KerylR said:


> At the same time, if it's not a scam, moving to a set price fee for service plan seems like the way to maximize our profits as writers. We don't pay our editors or cover artists for their contributions with an eternal cut of our profits. Why have the sales mechanism be any different?


You're paying a yearly fee to Bookbaby for as long as you keep your book published with them (not to mention any other fees that happen to pop up when you initially publish through them). If you're looking to maximize your profits as a writer, why would you use them? You can use another service that does the same thing for free or do it yourself. I would rather put my book on Amazon and B&N myself than pay someone else to do it. I get to keep all the profits without giving Bookbaby an eternal/yearly cut. As for Apple and other vendors, there is Smashwords which is free of charge. Again, there is no eternal/yearly cut of the profits. In fact, Smashwords can indirectly help you with your marketing and promotional efforts. I don't see any upside to using Bookbaby.

I'm not saying Bookbaby is a scam but I put it in the same category as all those businesses that have popped up looking for ways to part a writer from their money.


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

I had to go before I finished. 

And if it is not a scam, still how does that maximize our profits? The sellers still take their cut. Bookbaby is not a seller they are a distributor. 
And if they do pay, your royalty will go through their bank account first. I bet my sweet booty they'll let as much money sit in their account for as long as possible to earn interest. Meanwhile writers have bills to pay and food to buy.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Keryl, I found your blog article on BookBaby vs Smashwords really interesting. Looks like you did a lot of helpful figure comparison. Thanks for writing it.

Here it is if anyone else wants to read it: http://topublishornotto.blogspot.com/


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

oliewankanobe said:


> Well... no offense, but all this back and forth still ignores the issue of charging that $20 fee at all... like, ever.
> 
> And I don't take amazon's word for it unless you are implying they actually lie about/don't report sales. Isn't that getting a bit far afield and... well... silly.
> 
> It's starting to sound less like a "friend told me" question and more like you work for them. No offense... just a wee bit weird.


The only person I work for is me.

I'm just not seeing the flaw in my logic. As I've said, if it's a scam that's one thing. If it's legit, I'm not seeing why it isn't a better deal for anyone who sells more that $1000 per book.

That twenty dollar fee (if you compare to Smashword 15% cut) equals 129 one dollar sales on Smashwords. If you sell more than $129 on Smashwords per year you pay them more than the $19 BookBaby charged you per year. If you sell 10,000 on Smashwords they get $1,500 if you sell 10,000 on Bookbaby they get about $150.

Can you point to the hole in my logic? Can you show me where my math is wrong? Can you find someone who's been burned by this company to show it's a scam?

Look if they don't pay, if they skim off the top, if I missed a decimal point and my numbers are off, I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll blog about it. I ripped into OutskirtsPress something fierce because I do think they run an operation specifically designed to rip you off for as much as they possibly can.

Basically, I do think saying any organization would lie about sales when you know nothing about them is silly. Of course saying Amazon is lying about what we sell is silly. But we do take their word for it. We can't independently audit their books. That's the point, we have to trust the sales numbers we're sent from our sellers or distributors because we have no way of checking them.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

sandynight said:


> And if it is not a scam, still how does that maximize our profits? The sellers still take their cut. Bookbaby is not a seller they are a distributor.
> 
> And if they do pay, your royalty will go through their bank account first. I bet my sweet booty they'll let as much money sit in their account for as long as possible to earn interest. Meanwhile writers have bills to pay and food to buy.


Well, you're suspicious they don't pay in a timely manner. Other posters have been suspicious of their website saying they pay weekly.

Either way, if it's a scam, then I'll be happy to know about it.

If it's not a scam, here's how it maximizes our profits. Assuming you aren't going to DIY the distribution thing (which, yes, that really is the way to maximize your profits) you've currently got the option of Smashwords or BookBaby (and if there are other options, I'd be happy to hear about them, too). If you sell $10,000 worth of a book on Smashwords, you pay them $1,500.00 If you sell $10,000 worth of books on BookBaby, you pay them $150.00 On the second year, if you sell $10,000 worth of that same book on Smashwords you pay them $1,500. On the second year on BookBaby if you sell $10,000 worth of the same book you pay $19. So, that's how, assuming it's not a scam, it maximizes your profits over Smashwords.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

KerylR said:


> Ummm... isn't that also a potential problem for Smashwords as well? (Hell, how do we know how many books we've really sold on Amazon? We take their word for it.)
> 
> As I've asked before, is it a scam? Anyone have any proof or even rumors of that? It's one thing if they don't pay, or mess with the numbers, or any thing like that. I'd say that's a very legitimate concern for any new self publish operation.
> 
> At the same time, if it's not a scam, moving to a set price fee for service plan seems like the way to maximize our profits as writers. We don't pay our editors or cover artists for their contributions with an eternal cut of our profits. Why have the sales mechanism be any different?


Actually, what you have said makes me consider it in a different light. It's $99 up front + $19 for an ISBN + $19 for each year beyond the first year, but once you bear those costs you get 100% of the money, unlike through Smashwords where Smashwords takes a cut of every sale. Considering that Bookbaby says they will do the formatting as well, I don't think it's a terrible deal. I still wouldn't go for it, but for $118 they will take your manuscript and cover, format it, and push it to Amazon, B&N, iBooks, and Sony and then you get every penny of every sale.

I'd still rather go direct without a middleman as much as possible.


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

I've been looking at their site and it does look inviting but I do have a question. Can you select which sellers they distribute your book to, like smashwords? Does it have to be for all? Can someone opt of say Kindle an Nook and just use Apple or Sony? I could not find that info on their site. And also if you redo your cover after its been published it says you have to resumbit your book again, but can you use your own cover or do you have to buy one they make for you? And I read somewhere that they can alter your cover and product descrip without notification. I'd go over Everything with a fine tooth comb.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Some other things to note.

You have to get an isbn through them so you're looking at another $19 tacked onto the base price.

If you have a book with more than 30 interactive chapter headings, it's an extra $75. I'm not sure what their definition of interactive chapter heading is.

If you are doing a book with a map or other images, that's an extra $99. This may or may not be a concern depending on the type of book you're publishing.

If you have images or graphs in your book, there might be special formating issues for complicated conversion (ie your eBook has tables, graphs, graphics, or special formatting needs) which may require an additional fee. They'll contact you in the event of this but special formatting is billed at $150 an hour. This is from their FAQs. Again, this may or may not be a concern depending on the book you're publishing.

All of these charges can add up quickly. That is why Bookbaby reminds me of the old vanity press pricing structure. After you pay them, they have no incentive to help you sell your books. In contrast, Smashwords has a vested interest in things. They want you to sell books and provide tools to help you sell your books so they can get their cut. Smashwords isn't perfect but the ability to distribute review copies and issue coupon codes in addition to selling my books in the iBookstore is well worth it to me.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

All of these questions are answered on their FAQ. Here's the FAQ:
http://www.bookbaby.com/faq

Again, I know many of us are writers and would rather punch a baby in the face than do some simple calculations, but for just a moment, bare with me here:

1.) Smashwords takes 15% of every sale you ever make forever. On higher priced ebooks like 2.99 or 3.99, this represents 45 to 60 cents per copy sold for the life of your book. On 99 cent books, this represents only 15 cents.
2.) BookBaby charges 19.00 per year after an initial setup fee. For a 99 cent book, this fee appears to represent 127 books in Smashwords (1900 cents / 15 cents per copy). For a 2.99 book, this fee appears to represent 43 books in Smashwords (1900 cents / 45 cents). For a 3.99 book, this fee appears to represent 32 books in Smashwords (1900 cents / 60 cents).

Now, from the FAQ and the associated pages, some answers:

1.) You do not have to create a cover through them. You can use your own.
2.) You can use your own ISBN if you have one (1 ISBN can be used for all eBook formats, from what I understand).
3.) The payments are made within a week from when they are paid by Amazon, iBookstore, etc. 
4.) They claim to be able to push to all sellers within 5 days (no conversion needed) to 10 days if you need a conversion.

Who this appears to be for:

1.) Authors who sell more than 127 $.99 eBooks per year through channels you are currently using Smashwords for.
2.) Authors who sell more than 43 $2.99 eBooks per year through channels you are currently using Smashwords for.
3.) Authors who sell more than 32 $3.99 eBooks per year through channels you are currently using Smashwords for.

Who this does not appears to be for:

1.) Authors who are able to handle all eBook distribution and conversion themselves
2.) Authors who do not want to pony up an initial setup
3.) Authors who do not expect to sell many eBooks through the distribution channels that BookBaby goes through.

Additional fees:

1.) If you have over 30 chapters that you need included in your table of contents, then they charge an additional fee. This usually isn't a problem with most novels.
2.) The custom formatting price per hour is steep at 150 per hour, but these kinds of prices only affect situations where you are doing a lot of images, graphs, etc. within your file. If you can do your own eBook, this is a non-issue.
3.) If you need images other than the cover, you pay a one-shot fee of 99 dollars for up to 15 images.
4.) Most of these fees don't seem predatory and seem more in protection of their own time commitments for textbook formatting as they'll have to convert graphs, for instance, into something that renders well in an eBook.
5.) All service fees are shown here: http://www.bookbaby.com/pricing

My math may be incorrect on these, so feel free to point out issues with the numbers. These guys do CDBaby as well, which does hundreds of millions of dollars in sales. Everyone wants money, but I don't think these guys are a scam.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

sandynight said:


> I've been looking at their site and it does look inviting but I do have a question. Can you select which sellers they distribute your book to, like smashwords? Does it have to be for all? Can someone opt of say Kindle an Nook and just use Apple or Sony? I could not find that info on their site. And also if you redo your cover after its been published it says you have to resumbit your book again, but can you use your own cover or do you have to buy one they make for you? And I read somewhere that they can alter your cover and product descrip without notification. I'd go over Everything with a fine tooth comb.


I don't know if you can pick your distribution channels, and if not that goes into the pro column for Smashwords.

Because B&N and Amazon are so easy, I prefer to do them myself and save the 15%. But I'm not planning on getting a mac, or renting one anytime soon, so having someone else handle the Apple store is just fine.

Likewise I don't know about the nit picky what happens when you put up a book stuff. I was kind of hoping someone here had used them and could tell me.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

rexjameson said:


> 1.) Smashwords takes 15% of every sale you ever make forever. On higher priced ebooks like 2.99 or 3.99, this represents 45 to 60 cents per copy sold for the life of your book. On 99 cent books, this represents only 15 cents.


This math is wrong. Smashwords takes 15% of the actual take, not the initial listing price. So per sale, on a $2.99 to $3.99 book, you're looking at something closer to 30 cents to 41 cents. Nitpicky, but it'd add up eventually. And bear in mind, you have to make that $120 back in iBookstore and Sony sales ONLY (and just Sony if you have a Mac). You can go straight to Pubit and Amazon. Again, this drastically shrinks the market they're useful for, and makes it even harder to recoup their losses. The vast, vast bulk of people simply will not make any money. No, they'll be LOSING money, which is NOT how it would work at Smashwords.

It'd also be more expensive to buy an ISBN yourself, so you really don't have much choice but to use the ISBN from them. 20 bucks isn't bad...but it is 20 bucks more than Smashwords/B&N/Amazon require.

I'd also like to know why you magically dropped the $100 "ebook signup fee" which is not in any way optional. Again, this drastically changes your numbers.

So, you'd need, from iBookstore and Sony only, approximately:

($120 first year on a 0.99 cent ebook, with Smashwords cut at $0.10 based on their own calculator) = 1200 sales. So, 1200 sales of ONE book at 99 cents to get back to even in the first year. After that, you need 200 sales a year just to keep up with their yearly fee. And that is at iBookstore and Sony ONLY (and maybe Pubit if you just feel lazy). I'd love to see a raise of hands of just how many people are pulling that off in those select retailers.

($120 first year on a $2.99 ebook, with Smashwords cut at 0.30 per book) = 400 sales to recoup initial costs for the first year, and at iBookstore and Sony only. Seriously, there is such a shockingly low amount of self-publishers who will pull that off for just a single book. After that, you need about 66 sales a year to cover the costs.

This isn't counting extra formatting, $150 an hour if they feel like it took longer conversions for whatever reason, an extra 75 bucks for more than 30 chapters, etc. Again, someone trying out self-publishing loses nothing if their books don't sell going through Smashwords. They will be out money trying to use BookBaby. This is a service preying on the people who haven't learned what their doing, who don't know how to convert their files, who won't be treating this like a business. To me, maybe not everyone else, but to me this is just a vanity service designed to make money off the many, many poor sellers. You'd have to do very well on a rather difficult market (iBookstore/Sony) to have this at all justified.


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## Raybrite (Feb 9, 2011)

I guess it is sort of like gambling if they are legit. You are gambling that you will sell more books than would be required to pay for their costs.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't punch babies in the face when there is a bag of kittens to jump on. Just want to clarify that point.

I want to clarify another point. A book doesn't have to be particularly long to have a lot of chapters. It's going to come down to writing style and genre.

Also if BookBaby opens a store, they do state they will take a share of the profits. This is in their terms of agreement (along with a few other minor points).

If it's like gambling in a casino, the odds are always in favor of the house.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

*Wait wait wait!!!* There's more to this BookBaby/Smashwords comparison than meets the eye. A blog post over on Criminal Brief brought them to my attention, and I posted this as part of my comment:



> BookBaby looks like a good deal, on the surface. They certainly don't seem like a complete rip-off. However, that '100% of royalties' does eclipse an interesting point - if I left Smashwords and signed with BookBaby, not only would I be paying money upfront (and possibly lose distribution of my popular freebie promotional offering), I'd also be receiving a lower percentage of retailer sales for the majority of retailers (iBookstore is the exception). Even after Smashwords takes a cut, I get 60% of the sale price from B&N - my highest-selling retailer. They also distribute to Kobo, which may not seem impressive to American audiences but is fast becoming the #2 retailer in other English-speaking countries. A good deal on the surface isn't always so good a few inches down.


BookBaby do pay 100% of royalties received, but for the majority of stores, they haven't negotiated as good a deal as Smashwords have, and don't _receive_ as much money per sale.

Here are the figures:

*iBookstore*
Smashwords: 60%
Bookbaby: 70%

*B&N*
Smashwords: 60%
Bookbaby: 50%

*Amazon*
Smashwords: N/A
Bookbaby: 35-70% (same pricing structure as going direct)

*Sony Ebookstore*
Smashwords: 60%
Bookbaby: 50%

*Kobo*
Smashwords: 60% (38% for non-North-American sales)
Bookbaby: N/A

*Diesel*
Smashwords: 60%
Bookbaby: N/A


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Reading through this, it doesn't seem like a scam, but based on the numbers, it certainly seems like a massive percentage of authors would be better served financially by directly uploading to KDP, and going via Smashwords to B&N &Apple for books under $2.99 or going Pubit/iBooks direct for books $2.99 and up.  And using Smashwords for distribution to Sony and Kobo and Diesel.

Yes, if you sell large numbers a single title per year on Sony, you'd seem to be better off with Bookbaby.  And if you don't want to/can't get involved with uploading to iBooks, make that Sony and iBooks together. 

Otherwise, I suppose if you just want a single point of upload, you might choose bookbaby, figuring that as compared to Smashwords, the loss of Kobo is more than made up for by having Amazon. If you want that, presumably you've completely eliminated any consideration of maximizing profits.

Last point - Smashwords has a track record much greater than bookbaby at this point.  Yes, this includes some of the known problems with Smashwords.  Even if I fit into one of the above categories where bookbaby makes sense (I don't), I'd just as soon wait until a few authors I know start getting checks and providing sales numbers before moving there.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, random maths attack.

I've got 5 books, list price $2.99 each, and I'll sell 1000/year of each per retailer. For ease of comparison, I'm only using retailers common to both distributors.

*Bookbaby*

Basic startup cost: 5 x -$99 = -$495
Take from ibookstore: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.7 = $10465
Take from Sony: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.5 = $7475
Take from B&N: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.5 = $7475

Total for the year: $24920

*Smashwords*

Basic startup cost: $0
Take from ibookstore: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.6 = $8970
Take from Sony: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.6 = $8970
Take from B&N: 5000 x $2.99 x 0.6 = $8970

Total for the year: $26910

_Edited to add:_ Clearly it's never going to be this simple. For example, Apple takes VAT out of the royalties paid. But I still find it interesting.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

From the BookBaby website:

_"We pay you 100% of the wholesale price that we get paid by our partners (including Apple's iBookstore, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Sony). We take zero commission, period."_

Amazon, Apple, and B&N pay the royalties to BookBaby. I can think of no reason to give someone else control of the revenue stream.


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## Tom Junior (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm actually looking for a service similar to this. Not due to laziness mind you, but due to time. Right now I work an average of 9+ hours a day, when I come home I barely have the energy to write. Much less edit, create a cover, and fiddle with formatting. If theres a service that will do that stuff for me great. 
$99 seems very a very reasonable price to farm out some of the drudge work. 

I'm a little dubious about handing over control of my profits (if any). I would much rather have control of that myself. 

Besides Bookbay, are there any other 'full service' companies like this around?


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> This math is wrong.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'd also like to know why you magically dropped the $100 "ebook signup fee" which is not in any way optional. Again, this drastically changes your numbers.


I noted that these numbers were after the initial setup fee (I didn't neglect to mention there was one). The setup fee appears to be easy to hit within the first year and I'm planning to write books for the long term. It's the recurring costs per year that I was curious about, and why I personally tried to do numbers on them to see what I'd have to hit. As you said, these may have been off because I'm not sure when Smashwords is taking off their percentages but I'm not off by thousands of books a year or something. I'm trying to come up with a ballpark. It certainly wasn't intentional. I'm trying to figure out where an actual break even point is on these numbers.

I have no experience with this service. For an established author selling thousands of titles a year through distribution channels that aren't Kindle/Nook, it doesn't seem like that bad of a deal for a bit of piece of mind. I have every intention of doing my own eBook conversions for my first books and trying to do all the distribution myself, so none of this really applies to me. But, long term, I'm not sure if I will be handling all of this personally forever, so I'd like to know my options. If there is ANY breakeven point for BookBaby over Smashwords, I'd like to know the math, and I'd like to be informed.

Some of the people that are coming into the thread and saying this is a vanity press option are intentionally misleading everyone here or are just having a bit of a knee jerk reaction. BookBaby does not appear to hyperinflate the cost of the eBook like PublishAmerica. They seem to be offering a service similar to Smashwords, and they have a pricing structure that is interesting if I'm able to push through thousands of sales a year through certain channels. Nomesque numbers are making me even more curious. I didn't realize that Smashwords was able to negotiate a better margin for its distribution service through certain providers.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

jessicamorse said:


> The website claims they pay weekly. That's a little surprising since the retailers don't pay that often, which would mean BookBaby is floating you the cash until Amazon pays them? Definitely suggests a site that doesn't expect their clients' books to sell.


Oh, that's a tricky one! Here's what I assume you're talking about:



> All accounting details will be available and updated daily in the secure members' login area at https://www.bookbaby.com/Login. We will make payments to you (by wire or electronic transfer) when the amounts credited to you exceed the Threshold Amount (as defined below) set by you initially upon your registration with BookBaby, or as subsequently modified by you. Payments will occur within 7 business days from the date that your account balance exceeds the Threshold Amount.


Which could (legitimately) mean that once they receive a monthly payment from a retailer, they update your sales info and a week later, pay you. Still faster than Smashwords, I grant, but I don't think it's likely that they'd pay for actual sales *made* the previous week. I think the sales they'd be paying out on would most likely be 1-3 months ago.


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## Christopher Hunter (Apr 11, 2011)

No thank them, I'll stick to Smashwords. Not paying a cent in up-front costs. That, plus the flexibility to do promotions with codes is unbeatable. The only problems I have with Smashwords are the slow payment system, the troublesome meat-grinder, the self-interested culture of the members, the fact that customers have to put in credit card information manually with each purchase, and the fact that a book will sink like a stone after publication. But those issues aside, I can't think of a more author-friendly distributor.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

T.J. Dotson said:


> I'm actually looking for a service similar to this. Not due to laziness mind you, but due to time. Right now I work an average of 9+ hours a day, when I come home I barely have the energy to write. Much less edit, create a cover, and fiddle with formatting. If theres a service that will do that stuff for me great.
> 
> $99 seems very a very reasonable price to farm out some of the drudge work.
> 
> ...


I'm biased but the few full service companies I have seen are just like the vanity press operations of the past. They charge a lot for what you can and probably should do yourself. If you want to do it, let us know how it turns out for you. I can't think of any I can recommend to you in good conscience.

I don't see it as drudge work but I can understand wanting someone else to do cover art, editing or formatting. Just be aware, it might not save you any time or work.

Uploading your book and putting it on Kindle is very quick and easy. I can't see paying someone to do it for me especially if it meant I wouldn't have access to the sales reports or they would have access to my account information.

When it comes to editing, you still have to make changes to your manuscript based on the suggestions and feedback from your editor. I don't know about you but I couldn't bring myself to trust someone else to change my manuscript for me. The same thing goes for formatting.

With covers, you might work closely with whoever is designing your cover or you might trust them to design something after reading your book / synopsis. I don't think it works that way with a full service company.

You can save time by doing certain things yourself. It might even decrease the amount of work you need to do. Formatting is one of those things. Using a template for your manuscript will take a lot of work out of formatting. There are a lot of threads and guides in this forum that take a lot of pain out of formatting your books. If you're skilled with Gimp/Photoshop, you could do your own cover. If not, you can find someone who will be able to do a professional looking cover and cost less than going to a full service company. For editing, I would hire someone to do it then I would make the changes to the manuscript. All in all, you might spend less than going to a full service company. Also If something needs to be changed, you don't have any hoops to jump through.

If you really want someone to do editing, cover art, formatting and publish your book for you then I suggest you look into getting a publisher. There are a lot of very good small publishers out there who might be a good fit for you. They will even pay you which is a far better deal than paying an operation like BookBaby.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

ChristopherHunter said:


> No thank them, I'll stick to Smashwords. Not paying a cent in up-front costs. That, plus the flexibility to do promotions with codes is unbeatable. The only problems I have with Smashwords are the slow payment system, the troublesome meat-grinder, the self-interested culture of the members, the fact that customers have to put in credit card information manually with each purchase, and the fact that a book will sink like a stone after publication. But those issues aside, I can't think of a more author-friendly distributor.


The coupon thing is the most attractive part of Smashwords, over all, imo. Regardless of take, that is just an incredible option to have available for promotion. I can't imagine not doing Smashwords, even if BookBaby did end up being better, if it meant that I could have a coupon option for reviewers or just promotional periods.


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## Beth Barany (Mar 14, 2011)

While I like what CDBaby has done for indie musicians (my husband is one of them), what they're doing for indie authors smells for like vanity press action. How are they invested in the author's success?

Another similar service like BookBaby is FastPencil.com

I guess I like the control that uploading directly to Smashwords, Kindle and Nook give me.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

KerylR said:


> And, as you may recall, before the indie revolution, charging for editing and cover art was also considered something that parasites did. After all, a good publisher paid for those things for you. Yog's Law is changing as the indies begin to change how books are produced and published. We now pay for things no respectable writer would have ever paid for ten years ago.


Yog's law has not changed. Publishers should still pay 100% of the cost of production. When you self-publish, _you are the publisher_ and therefore you are responsible for 100% of the cost of production. So while writers would never pay for editing, publishers do. And if you are going to serve as your own publisher, your publisher-self is resonsible for paying for that. If someone claims to be a "publisher" and asks you for money, Yog's law still applies. But if you are going to be your own publisher, Yog's law no longer applies in terms of you absorbing the publisher's expenses because you are the publisher.

Smashwords is a wholesaler or distributor. Publishers have always used distributors and wholesalers. This is a normal expense. These services essentially sell the books for you and keep a percentage of each sale. The reason why they distributors take a percentage instead of imposing a flat fee is because their actual expenses are based on processing sales transactions. A book that sells 100 a month incurs less expenses to "stock" than a book that sells 10,000 a month. So traditional wholesalers charge a percentage of the sale. The more you sell, the more expenses they incur through processing the transactions.

In the case of bookbaby, the fact that they charge a flat fee and no percentage implies that they do not expect to incur expenses from actual transactions of sales. They have priced their service more like a virtual warehouse, where you just rent pallet space. They are charging you for storage, but not expecting to actually sell anything.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> I'd rather not pour money. Any dolt can do cover design.


Technically, any Joe Schmoe could make a cover. But there's no guarantee it would be a good one, that looks professional and actually attracts customers rather than turning them off.

I hate to say it, but when I see an amateurish cover on an indie book, I stay far, far away. I know it's not always the case, but it makes me concerned that the writing (and editing) will be equally amateurish.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

On various threads, I detect a willingness to make perpetual payments of a percentage of royalties rather than pay cash upfront. There is also a willingness to turn over control of revenue to a third party. This is almost unknown in any other businesses.

So I'd take a very hard look at anything that 1) takes control of all your revenue, and 2) takes some of that revenue forever. 

The fact that it may look like the way traditional publishers do things means absolutely nothing. This is not traditional publishing.

Three services self-publishers need are editing, cover, and formatting. All can be done for lump sum payments. That means cash now and never again.

If one gets a formatted file, anyone can upload it to Amazon and B&N with a PC. Anyone. There is nothing at all difficult about it. It takes no skill. Doing it for Apple takes an Apple computer, but just as little skill.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I agree with Terrence. Giving away a percentage is not a good idea unless there is no other option. If I was selling a lot of books, I'd invest in a used Mac and upload directly to iBooks. 

Sony won't take indie books direct from indie publishers, so letting Smashwords take a percent or paying a service like Bookbaby is what you'll need. 

Kobo seems like it will take your book directly, but I've yet to receive a reply from an inquiry I emailed. 

Diesel requires you upload through Smashwords. Who knows if Diesel even sells?

I don't know much about Overdrive but that's another place to investigate. 

I expect to see some consolidation in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if someone purchased Kobo if Borders continues to struggle.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

When it comes to distribution, I don't mind giving a hit per sale to a _distributor._ For me, I can either pay a distributor to handle this stuff, or I can pay a person to handle it (or spend the time doing it myself). If I only had one or two titles, then it would make sense to set up separate accounts with each site and manually upload to each site. But I don't have one or two titles. Between fiction, the journal, and my RPG products, I have well over a 100. The administrative time dump involved to manually deal with that many products across, say, 30 or 40 sites is enormous. So I narrow down to a couple of distributors (Mobipocket, which feeds the "traditional" ebook vendors, Smashwords, which feeds the mass retailer sites.) Between the two of them, my books are available on dozens of sites without me having to go around manually doing all of it and checking it. Throw in Amazon (which Mobipocket use to feed but now requires direct set-up) and OBS and I have an enormous ebook reach without the strain on my time.

The second issue is that I know Mobipocket and particularly Smashwords are constantly looking to add new vendors to their channels. I don't have to go out hunting down new retail sites or having one of my folks do it. Again, for me, it is one less administrative function I need to worry about. They can set up the agreements, and I don't have to worry about learning a new special format because whatever they agree to will almost always adhere to the existing format specifications.

That doesn't mean I don't keep an eye on what my distributors are doing. I do. And if they stopped providing the service I expect, I would take my business elsewhere. But so long as they are distributing my books, collecting my money, and continue to improve their processes to buyers, I have no problem paying them a small hit on each sale. I prefer a distributor who only gets paid when they actually distribute (i.e. sell) books. Just paying someone a flat fee once a year means they have my money whether they do anything or not. Distribution requires constant upkeep and effort, not an upload and forget it approach. I want a distributor who has a vested interest in putting in that constant upkeep and effort.


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## BookBaby (Apr 12, 2011)

Hello all -- Lots of really good points offered and made about BookBaby. As a few others have mentioned, BookBaby is the newest member of the CD Baby family of brands. Since 1997 we've been a trusted friend and partner to the independent music and film community. In fact, over those years we've paid out over $180 million to artists, filmmakers -- and now authors. We have a deep understanding of digital distribution and enjoy tremendous working relationships with Apple, Amazon and many others.

Authors have a lot of terrific options to get their work distributed out to the marketplace. Every method or service has its selling points. BookBaby provides value to the authors who are looking for convenience and simplicity. We accept many original file formats - from MS Word to In Design -- for conversion. We do a lot of these text file conversions at no charge. But we also have the expertise to handle complex files with charts, graphs, tables and illustrations at a fair hourly rate.

BookBaby authors specify where they want their book sold -- any combination of Amazon, Sony, B&N and Apple - and tell us their paypoint. We provide authors with full sales reporting by store, and forward 100% of their net sales receipts *within a week* of receiving payments from the retailers. With retailers on different payment schedules, we don't hold your money any longer than we have to!

As BookBaby evolves, we're going to be adding new services and programs. This week we added very affordable cover design service options. In the coming weeks we'll have an author-friendly website hosting solution through another of our 'Baby brands, HostBaby. We're filling our BookBaby blog with resources and information. And of course we're working closely with our retailer partners to secure the best percentage deals for our authors.

The input we've been reading here and on other boards is being used to help us grow and improve BookBaby. If you have additional questions or suggestions please feel free to email us at [email protected]


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2011)

BookBaby said:


> BookBaby provides value to the authors who are looking for convenience and simplicity. deals for our authors.


Or too lazy or stupid to do it themselves for free elsewhere?

Yeah, about the cover design program. For $99 I can select a generic image or SUPPLY MY OWN and your designers will slap a standard font on it for me. If I want a fancy font, I have to pay an extra $100.

You charge $149 (on sale for $99) PER BOOK, then $19 a year. It costs an additional $19 for the ISBN which is needed for distribution.

What is curious is that the CDBaby site, which is what your credibility is based on, only charge $39 to upload and sell an entire album, no annual fee, and a low fee per sale. I don't pretend to be an expert on music, but I would think formatting and processing an album is a bit more complex that auto-converting a file to epub, not to mention differences in file storage size. How do you justify charging $149 to authors but only $39 to musicians? The CDBaby site is actually closer to the norms of digital publishing than the bookbaby site. A low processing fee to get the product set up, no annual fees, and a small percentage of each sale. I find it odd that, if you have a system that already works, you wouldn't port the system and price structure over to bookbaby. Instead, the bookbaby site reeks of price gouging.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

nomesque said:


> OK, random maths attack.
> 
> I've got 5 books, list price $2.99 each, and I'll sell 1000/year of each per retailer. For ease of comparison, I'm only using retailers common to both distributors.
> 
> ...


Are you taking out Smashwords cut? (I'm not seeing it in the formula.)

Still, the lower cut for Bookbaby is an important factor and does increase the number of needed sales before one can do better there than on Smashwords.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

KerylR said:


> Are you taking out Smashwords cut? (I'm not seeing it in the formula.)


Smashwords do take 10% of the book price for distributed sales, but that's not taken from the 60% the author gets. Basically, the cut is 30% retailer, 10% Smashwords, 60% author. The author gets a STRAIGHT 60%.



KerylR said:


> Still, the lower cut for Bookbaby is an important factor and does increase the number of needed sales before one can do better there than on Smashwords.


*blink* Unless you sell fantastically in the Apple store and nowhere else, you CAN'T do better on Bookbaby, as it stands, than on Smashwords. 60% will always trump 50%. Not to mention the initial and ongoing charges.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

BookBaby said:


> Hello all -- Lots of really good points offered and made about BookBaby. As a few others have mentioned, BookBaby is the newest member of the CD Baby family of brands. Since 1997 we've been a trusted friend and partner to the independent music and film community. In fact, over those years we've paid out over $180 million to artists, filmmakers -- and now authors. We have a deep understanding of digital distribution and enjoy tremendous working relationships with Apple, Amazon and many others.


Hey! Thanks for coming by, and I hope you come back. I'm curious about what happens if an author needs to change their manuscript and reupload - or wants to change their cover. Is this possible? Does it cost extra?


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Or too lazy or stupid to do it themselves for free elsewhere?
> 
> Yeah, about the cover design program. For $99 I can select a generic image or SUPPLY MY OWN and your designers will slap a standard font on it for me. If I want a fancy font, I have to pay an extra $100.
> 
> ...


I don't see it as price gouging. If a writer doesn't know how to create an ebook and has no desire to learn, he or she is going to have to pay someone to do it. At $99 I don't see anyone being gouged. And you get a bit of that money back in some of the markets by getting 100% of the revenue instead of giving a cut to the middleman.

My recommendation would be to do it yourself, including figuring out how to upload to Apple directly, and then let Smashwords handle Kobo and Diesel because I think those are small markets anyway. But some people won't mind paying $99 to get their book up for sale.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

@BookBaby: Also, could you comment about nomesque's numbers here? Are there any plans to try to negotiate a similar rate for you so that this is a more attractive option for the author community. If Smashwords is getting a much larger percentage to the author and giving us the ability to have coupons on their site for free offers, it's difficult for us to choose your outfit because we're still getting more return from Smashwords AND paying money up front for that privilege.

Specifically, nomesque is talking about the royalty section of the Smashwords FAQ here: http://www.smashwords.com/about/supportfaq#Royalties
You can see that they are claiming 60% of list price distributed to the author. If you're wanting to cut away a large portion of Smashwords business, you'll need to at least match this percentage and you'll have to have something else that justifies the per year fee.

Or are we missing something about your business model?


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> I don't see it as price gouging. If a writer doesn't know how to create an ebook and has no desire to learn, he or she is going to have to pay someone to do it. At $99 I don't see anyone being gouged. And you get a bit of that money back in some of the markets by getting 100% of the revenue instead of giving a cut to the middleman.


You are correct. Technically, it isn't price gouging because they do not control the market. That was the wrong phrase to use. Instead the more accurate word would be _price discrimination_. Price discrimination is the charging of different fees to different sectors of the population for the same service. In this case, the company offers almost identical services to musicians as it does to authors, however musicians receive a much lower rate of the service than authors ($39 per album compared to $149 per book). I challenge anyone to prove to me that processing a digital audio product is LESS work intensive than processing an ebook. Essentially, they have decided authors are gullible and are willing to pay over a $100 more for the same service than musicians. It is a price structure that depends on the potential customer having no idea what the actual marketplace looks like. And while we can argue that people should take personal responsibility and research before they enter a business deal (and they should), when you deliberately set up a price structure dependent on people NOT knowing the market and not doing the research that is unethical. It's like if you and I walk into a Starbucks and they charge you $5 for a coffee but charge me $7 because they think women are willing to pay more for the same thing.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You are correct. Technically, it isn't price gouging because they do not control the market. That was the wrong phrase to use. Instead the more accurate word would be _price discrimination_. Price discrimination is the charging of different fees to different sectors of the population for the same service. In this case, the company offers almost identical services to musicians as it does to authors, however musicians receive a much lower rate of the service than authors ($39 per album compared to $149 per book). I challenge anyone to prove to me that processing a digital audio product is LESS work intensive than processing an ebook. Essentially, they have decided authors are gullible and are willing to pay over a $100 more for the same service than musicians. It is a price structure that depends on the potential customer having no idea what the actual marketplace looks like. And while we can argue that people should take personal responsibility and research before they enter a business deal (and they should), when you deliberately set up a price structure dependent on people NOT knowing the market and not doing the research that is unethical. It's like if you and I walk into a Starbucks and they charge you $5 for a coffee but charge me $7 because they think women are willing to pay more for the same thing.


I don't know anything about the audio market, but I wouldn't format someone's ebook and go to the effort of pushing it to four different markets and then provide accounting services for those sales for $39. In my mind I can't find fault with them charging more than $39.

Would I pay for their service? Doubtful, though if I had a hot book that I thought was going to sell hundreds of copies a month on iBooks it might be worth $99 to get it there rather than allow Smashwords to take a cut of every sale. (It would make more sense to just buy a used Mac and do it all myself, but I can see someone not wanting to deal with that.)

John Locke, who sells ebooks by the ten thousands, says he pays $1000 for complete service -- editing, cover, and formatting for each book.

Overall, my feeling is why let anyone else take a percentage if you can avoid it through a little work. So it takes you a few hours to get your book up on iBooks? Isn't that few hours of work worth not handing out a cut of every sale week after week, month after month, and even potentially year after year, to someone else? Bypass Bookbaby AND Smashwords if you can. Let Smashwords work on boosting the sales on their own site so we're all dying to have our books sold on Smashwords.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

Asher MacDonald said:


> I don't know anything about the audio market, but I wouldn't format someone's ebook and go to the effort of pushing it to four different markets and then provide accounting services for those sales for $39. In my mind I can't find fault with them charging more than $39.


Asher, I think that is the point you might be missing. They aren't doing ANY of that. They are not editing the document for you. They are using an epub converter (just like Smashwords). They are not doing anything unique or special in relation to what everyone else in the marketplace is doing. Once the files are uploaded, they get electronically sent to the retailers (just like Smashwords and everyone else does). It is all automated. Then they get the sales reports and pay you (just like Smashwords and everyone else does). They aren't doing any special accounting. This is basic book keeping that EVERY vendor on the market does. They are PRETENDING that they are doing something special, but they aren't. Sort of like PublishAmerica PRETENDING that they are a traditional publisher.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

A better example of price discrimination is selling an eBook at different prices on different ePlatforms. With the eBook we have the same good being sold at different prices. With the music srevice and eBook service we have different goods being sold at different prices.


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## BookBaby (Apr 12, 2011)

Thanks for the welcome! Let’s see if I can answer a few questions here.

Regarding changes to books, book contents, covers, metadata: The answer is yes. BookBaby does accommodate content and cover changes, both before and after conversion and distribution. Fees may apply for books that have been delivered to the retailers. On pricing, metadata, keywords and descriptions, we do accommodate changes. Instead of detailing everything out, I invite you to go to www.bookbaby.com/faq for more information.

Regarding percentage deals from our retailers: We're in discussions with all the major retailers to provide the best returns back to our authors. I’m confident that this will be a non-issue in the near future. Stay tuned!

Regarding the CD Baby model vs. the BookBaby model and the difference in files: This is a much bigger conversation. While they share a lot of things – ownership, value propositions, vendor relationships, customer service orientation – the two brands are different in a lot of ways. CD Baby has its own music store for physical CDs and downloads and earns a transaction fee for each sale on its site, along with taking a small percentage from iTune downloads and the rest. BookBaby is purely a distributor right now. For many years now, music files come to CD Baby in a few very standardized formats that allow for automated processing. Each song sounds the same on every kind of player. Compare that to the book files BookBaby processes today: They come to us in many different original file types and even more formats within each type. Some books are text only; others have illustrations, charts and tables that need to be formatted carefully. While conversion is getting more standardized, there are probably over 100 readers on the market now that can display eBooks in different ways. What you see on a Kindle can be different from what you see on an iPad – even one that’s running the Kindle app! That makes for a lot of QC.

I'd be glad to answer any questions directly if that would be easier. My email is [email protected], or you can email our Portland office at [email protected] We really value these conversations and feedback as it helps us to grow a better BookBaby for everyone.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

BookBaby said:


> Thanks for the welcome! Let's see if I can answer a few questions here.
> 
> Regarding changes to books, book contents, covers, metadata: The answer is yes. BookBaby does accommodate content and cover changes, both before and after conversion and distribution. Fees may apply for books that have been delivered to the retailers. On pricing, metadata, keywords and descriptions, we do accommodate changes. Instead of detailing everything out, I invite you to go to www.bookbaby.com/faq for more information.


Aha! I can find the info in your FAQ now. I did look before asking, honest!  What sort of fee structure do you have in mind for those spelling/punctuation changes? And, if I reword a couple of paragraphs or change the cover, I'm looking at another $99 and a new ISBN?


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

BookBaby said:


> Compare that to the book files BookBaby processes today: They come to us in many different original file types and even more formats within each type. Some books are text only;


The MAJORITY of them are text only. At least insofar as fiction is going to be concerned. I appreciate special time and effort involved in something that has excessive formatting needs, but that is not the norm, and your service makes no differentiation between someone with a ready-to-distribute epub file and someone who needs six hours of formatting help. Particularly on sites like KB, most folks here already know how to format their own files. If you had a lower rate for DIY authors who don't need formatting, then I wouldn't bat an eyelash. But your price structure effectively forces me to pay for services I don't need just because some of your customers MIGHT need it. That is sort of like the gas station charging me for an oil change I don't get when I stop to get gas because some customers MIGHT stop and get an oil change as well.

Further, on your FAQ site, your site specifically says that if a book requires additional formatting for tables, there will be ADDITIONAL fees. So to be honest, the $149 does NOT COVER EXCESS FORMATTING. Your fee only covers basic formatting. In your example of illustrations and tables, that formatting would (as per your own website) incur ADDITIONAL COSTS.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Actually, upon further review, I think we need to clarify a couple of points as our Bookbaby rep is saying one thing but the site says something else. The bookbaby rep is implying certain things in his/her comments, but the website says something different and I don't think a lot of people are understanding that.

http://www.bookbaby.com/pricing

$149 ($99 special): does NOT INCLUDE FORMATTING. The author is responsible for basic formatting of the book and using the bookbaby online tool to convert to epub. Bookbaby does NO FORMATTING at this price.

If your book requires ANY formatting help from Bookbaby, you pay fees IN ADDITION to the original $149.

It costs $99 to add images to your file. This brings your total cost to $249.
If you want to include a table, this costs $100.
Additional formatting help is billed at $150 PER HOUR.

So if you do everything yourself and need no help, you pay $149 PLUS $19 for an ISBN PLUS $19 per year. That is with NO HELP from bookbaby. So all of my original concers regarding the price different between CDbaby and Bookbaby still stand. All the talk about some books needing extra formatting is a distraction from that point, because anything that needs extra formatting is billed in addition to the normal fee.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Actually, upon further review, I think we need to clarify a couple of points as our Bookbaby rep is saying one thing but the site says something else. The bookbaby rep is implying certain things in his/her comments, but the website says something different and I don't think a lot of people are understanding that.
> 
> http://www.bookbaby.com/pricing
> 
> ...


That does sound uncomfortably expensive. I might consider using them to push to Apple if the fee were less. I don't mind doing the legwork -- formatting, cover, etc.

Really, though, I think I'd rather go rent time on a Mac at a Kinko's and do it myself.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

KerylR said:


> One of my friends found the site, and off to investigate I went.
> 
> Here's the quick write up: http://topublishornotto.blogspot.com/2011/04/self-publish-with-bookbaby.html
> 
> Thoughts? Comments? Anyone used them yet?


No thank you. I'll give it a pass. I'm not laying out any money till my book begins selling well.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Beatrice Brusic said:


> No thank you. I'll give it a pass. I'm not laying out any money till my book begins selling well.


But how do you know not paying any money is what is keeping your book from selling well?

(not an endorsement of BookBaby, but I mean in general).


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## BookBaby (Apr 12, 2011)

I'll say it again: these conversations are a tremendous help to us. Having informed folks eyeball our site, FAQs, wording, etc. is just invaluable. What I've learned today: I think we're not doing a good job explaining what we mean by "formatting" and our approach. Let me give it a try here and I'll make changes on the site:

Most folks know what "formatting" is. It's having a word document that is in the optimal format to undergo successful ePub conversion. We inform authors about our guidelines (listed here: http://www.bookbaby.com/epubconversion). Things like: Not using tabs or the spacebar to format paragraphs, or making sure the file is in a standard font like Times New Roman. Basic things like that. The vast majority of our authors do this on their own - or at least try to -- but we list this extra service in our pricing for those who don't want to take the time.

But frankly? About 30% of these files come to us out of our most basic formatting spec. If they're major errors, we have to email those authors and suggest how they can make corrections. But for the vast majority, our customer service team simply goes in and fixes these minor issues. Our authors have no idea we've performed this service. And we do it for no extra charge.

We list out the charges for tables, charts, graphs, illustrations, etc. to make it easy for authors or publishers to choose BookBaby to handle these more complex jobs.

The reality is: about 90% of our authors thus far have paid us only $99 for eBook conversion and distribution. About half of them have also purchased the ISBN. And since we introduced Cover Design to our menu of offerings, about 15% of authors are opting to purchase those.

As I said in my first message, it's wonderful that authors have a lot of choices for eBook conversion and distribution. Our model of: Strong front end customer service + Free Conversion + 100% payout to authors works for a lot of folks. For experienced, DIY veterans of the eBook world, we may not be your best choice. And that's fine!

Along the way, we'll be modifying and improving our services and offers. Thank you again for your very honest and helpful feedback!


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I'll give you credit for good looking cover design at affordable prices. The gallery of $99 covers isn't bad, and the gallery of deluxe covers for $199 seems very much in line with what other cover artists charge. It's less than some and probably more than some, but they look good. 

You guys will be more competitive with Smashwords if you can push to Kobo and Diesel eventually. 

A question: In the future would you consider a reduced rate if the writer does all the formatting and furnishes you with an epub file that you only have to upload to the various sellers?


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> But how do you know not paying any money is what is keeping your book from selling well?
> 
> (not an endorsement of BookBaby, but I mean in general).


Because I've seen authors spend fortunes and they haven't gotten anywhere. This is a crap shoot and you just have to throw the dice and keep throwing it till your luck changes. Spending a little money is a waste of time (unless you dish out the big bucks and get yourself on the Opra show) but how many of us can afford that? If that were the case most of us would have published traditionally, don't you think?


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## BookBaby (Apr 12, 2011)

_From Asher MacDonald -- A question: In the future would you consider a reduced rate if the writer does all the formatting and furnishes you with an epub file that you only have to upload to the various sellers._

The answer is YES. We've been discussing this possibility for the last couple of days. Now that we know more about the mix of our business, we can start to experiment and open up new offers. If/when we introduce this, I'll be sure and post it here.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Beatrice Brusic said:


> Because I've seen authors spend fortunes and they haven't gotten anywhere. This is a crap shoot and you just have to throw the dice and keep throwing it till your luck changes. Spending a little money is a waste of time (unless you dish out the big bucks and get yourself on the Opra show) but how many of us can afford that? If that were the case most of us would have published traditionally, don't you think?


Crap shoot? Perhaps. But you can't imagine how many people I've seen come through here over the past year stuck in this infinite loop of "I won't spend money until I get sales to make it worthwhile" coupled with "I won't get any sales because my cover/editing is terrible and I don't spend a dime advertising". Consider it a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2011)

Beatrice Brusic said:


> Because I've seen authors spend fortunes and they haven't gotten anywhere. This is a crap shoot and you just have to throw the dice and keep throwing it till your luck changes. Spending a little money is a waste of time (unless you dish out the big bucks and get yourself on the Opra show) but how many of us can afford that? If that were the case most of us would have published traditionally, don't you think?


It is not an issue of whether or not to spend money. It is an issue on HOW to spend money. Most authors use the throw enough crap against the wall approach and spend money haphazardly on services they don't need or on advertising that doesn't reach their target market. Example:

You have a romance novel that you want to sell. For $20, you can buy a one day display ad at the hypothetical freeandcheapreads.com, which has 3,000 visitors a day. Or, you can spend $100 on ads in the program for the Time for Romance book festival, which attracts 500 visitors each year. You can only buy one. Which do you buy? The average indie goes with the $20 "deal" because they are reaching more potential customers. The smart marketer goes with the book festival. Why? Because while some romance readers may go to freeandcheapreads.com, your actual chance of catching one of them the day your ads runs, at a time when they are ready to buy, is actually low. Whereas people who attend the festival are dedicated romance readers, and they are attending with a desire to buy. In the first case, while you have the potential to reach more people, the reality is that people zone out online banner and display ads and they tend to have a very low click thru rate (1-3%). Whereas people who attend cons have a higher interest level in purchasing than the general population and actually pay attention to the ads in the programs.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

When companies contemplate new projects, one of the measures the use is the cash payback period. So if I am going to develop an oil field and it will cost 100 million, I will figure costs, project oil prices and production levels, then determine how long it will take to recoup the cash expended. That's cash payback period. [Yes, I have simplified it.]

Books aren't nearly as complicated as oil fields, but some principles carry over. I translate each expenditure into book sales. How many books will I have to sell to cover this expense? How many sales on Amazon at $2.99 do I need to recoup an editing fee? How many for the cover? How many sales to cover all the expenses prior to uploading to Amazon? How many to cover a banner ad?

It also provides milestones. If a cover costs $300, then that takes 150 book sales. So when the book hits 150, it has accomplished something. The next 100 sales cover the editing.

I know it's not very sophisticated, and it's not the only tool needed, but it's another tool that gives another perspective. When the companies look at these things, they develop all kinds of metrics because each provides different benefits. So i figure a little book deserves at least some of the same attention.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> When companies contemplate new projects, one of the measures the use is the cash payback period. So if I am going to develop an oil field and it will cost 100 million, I will figure costs, project oil prices and production levels, then determine how long it will take to recoup the cash expended. That's cash payback period. [Yes, I have simplified it.]
> 
> Books aren't nearly as complicated as oil fields, but some principles carry over. I translate each expenditure into book sales. How many books will I have to sell to cover this expense? How many sales on Amazon at $2.99 do I need to recoup an editing fee? How many for the cover? How many sales to cover all the expenses prior to uploading to Amazon? How many to cover a banner ad?
> 
> ...


I do something very similar to this with my own tracking. I've got a formula worked out where I can see what percentage of my expenses I've recouped. Each time I sell a book I get that percentage closer and closer to 100. Once I hit that, then I can start calculating profits. Can't wait to see that formula.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

nomesque said:


> Smashwords do take 10% of the book price for distributed sales, but that's not taken from the 60% the author gets. Basically, the cut is 30% retailer, 10% Smashwords, 60% author. The author gets a STRAIGHT 60%.
> 
> *blink* Unless you sell fantastically in the Apple store and nowhere else, you CAN'T do better on Bookbaby, as it stands, than on Smashwords. 60% will always trump 50%. Not to mention the initial and ongoing charges.


So, yes, you are taking their cut. Without factoring that in the 60% number gets whittled down further. Since you had taken it into account your numbers are good. As I said, I didn't see it in your formula.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Crap shoot? Perhaps. But you can't imagine how many people I've seen come through here over the past year stuck in this infinite loop of "I won't spend money until I get sales to make it worthwhile" coupled with "I won't get any sales because my cover/editing is terrible and I don't spend a dime advertising". Consider it a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Maybe you're right. I'll think about it when I come back from a much needed vacation. I'm beginning to find out that self promotion is very hard and filled with obstacles and I know I have much to learn in this field.


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## altworld (Mar 11, 2010)

KerylR said:


> So, yes, you are taking their cut. Without factoring that in the 60% number gets whittled down further. Since you had taken it into account your numbers are good. As I said, I didn't see it in your formula.


I'm very happy with the service and back end cost I have with Smashwords, the 10% cut they take is worth it as it takes out the hassle of dealing with distributors like Apple, Sony and Kobo. Plus I get a FREE ISBN and I don't have a problem listing Smashwords as the publisher to get it.

Giving the recent problems and lack of support you get from Pubit I'm even thinking of pulling back to SW to list through them, so I can have more time to just write.

I don't know, I don't get the structure of your entire argument, with Smashwords I'm paying for a service that is incredibly hassle free when my books sell, I can update on the fly, change prices around, generate coupons for sales and have most of my questions answered directly by the company CEO. With BookBaby I'm parting with money upfront, paying a listing fee and still in the same position I would be with Smashwords, accept SW is invested in me making sales to make money, while BB has your money and doesn't have to do anything once the check clears.

Are you shilling for Bookbaby? Because your constantly talking down Smashwords and talking up Bookbaby.
Arigato,
Nick Davis


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

I think Bookbaby is on the right track. The idea of paying a flat fee up front and an annual maintenance fee has the promise of being cheaper than letting a service like Smashwords take a cut of every sale. Bookbaby just needs to get the numbers right to ensure that they are the cheaper alternative. 

They also need the scope that Smashwords has, though the cover the two big ones, Apple and Sony. If they also covered Kobo and Diesel it would make for a more interesting comparison between their service and Smashword's.


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## altworld (Mar 11, 2010)

Cannot escape the feeling there is a growing anti-Smashwords movement on this forum, and for the life of me I cannot think why?
Arigato,
Nick Davis


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

altworld said:


> Cannot escape the feeling there is a growing anti-Smashwords movement on this forum, and for the life of me I cannot think why?
> Arigato,
> Nick Davis


To me it's the idea of giving away a percentage. I'm not against Smashwords, but if they're taking 10% and you earn $10,000 before they take their cut over the course of a year through them, their service is costing you $1000. If another service offered you the same royalty rate but instead of charging a percentage they charged you $120 per book, you might be better off going through them. It all depends on how many books you will publish and what your volume of sales will be.

Right now Bookbaby doesn't have the numbers right to compete with Smashwords. Smashwords is returning a higher royalty rate with Sony and B&N than you'd get through Bookbaby and they also offer access to Kobo and Diesel. So Bookbaby's financial argument isn't that compelling.

Note also that for the second year of sales Smashwords will still take that 10% but Bookbaby will only take a $20 fee.

Currently, I'd still choose Smashwords and try to upload to iBooks directly, but if Bookbaby gets the royalty percentages in line with Smashword's and expands to Kobo and Diesel, they probably are a better alternative if you expect to earn several thousand dollars from a title over a course of a year.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Cannot escape the feeling there is a growing anti-Smashwords movement on this forum, and for the life of me I cannot think why?"_

I think you are seeing discussion of the merits of adopting different business models for eBook distribution. They are:

1. Upload book to a eRetailer and pay nothing.

2. Pay $120 initially, then pay $20 per year. Includes initial formatting.

3. Pay 10% of eBook sales revenue for duration book is on eRetailer. Includes initial formatting.

The advantages and disadvantages of each alternative stand on their merits. However, those same advantages and disadvantages apply to vendors who provide them.


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## Chris @ BookBaby (Apr 19, 2011)

I saw the discussion going on here about BookBaby and wanted to weigh in about our services.

BookBaby is a member of the CD Baby family (the world's largest online distributor of independent music). We've paid out over $180 million to artists. In the 12 years since we began, we've helped level the playing field by revolutionizing online distribution for DIY musicians. We have always put our artists' needs first and, as a result, have become one of the most beloved names in the world of independent music.

The connection between CD Baby and BookBaby is important to make for several reasons. Firstly, we would NEVER withhold any of your sales information or money. As soon as we receive sales reports from our retail partners, we report those sales to you in your accounting dashboard and pay you the following Tuesday. Secondly, it has always been one our primary focuses to provide great customer service. If you ever have any concerns or questions, call or email us. We've got a huge staff of knowledgeable folks waiting to help. Most of them are artists, writers, and musicians themselves, so they're always up for talking shop. Beyond just the services we provide, CD Baby is a community. We always want to foster an environment where artists can help each other, communicate, and shape our company with ideas and feedback. We've become one of the go-to sources for advice, tips, and promotional tools in the music world (with our free DIY Musician blog and podcast), and we're hoping to do the same with BookBaby.

As for some of the specific concerns I've heard in this thread:

1) BookBaby is completely non-exclusive. You are welcome to use other distributors (as long as 2 different distributors aren't delivering the SAME work to the SAME retailer) and encouraged to sell your work directly to your readers through your website and social media efforts. 
2) BookBaby allows you to choose which retailers you'd like to carry your eBook. Want to use us just for iBooks? Great! Already selling direct for Kindle and Nook? Great! Use us for the other companies. Want us to handle the distribution to all of our retail partners? Great. You decide.
3) You do NOT have to use our cover design services. We fully expect most authors to already have covers made. Simply upload those art files during the signup process and we'll deliver your eBook with the existing cover. If you need assistance in the art department, our award-winning Design Studio can help you create a great looking cover.
4) Similarly, if you already have a valid ISBN for your eBook, you are welcome to use that. 
5) Our annual fee of $19 after the first year allows us to keep the lights on in the office without taking a cut of your sales. We think our unique 100% model (allowing you to keep ALL of your earnings) is a big plus for authors.

As I mentioned above, if you have a direct relationship with any of our eBook retail partners already, you are more than welcome to keep working with them and just use BookBaby for the OTHER companies. However, we also feel that there is much to be said for convenience. As the publishing world changes and authors are expected to do more of the heavy lifting when it comes to marketing, promotion, social networking, website maintenance, etc. (you know, all the things that AREN'T writing), time management and simplicity will be very important. You should spend your time writing and marketing, NOT worrying about ePUB conversion, formatting, metadata, deliveries, accounting, and having to upload your eBook and artwork every time you want to work with a new retailer. That is where BookBaby comes in. You work with us, upload your book one time for $99, and we'll deal with all those other headaches for you.

Hope that helps answer some of the questions posed on this thread. But if you need any more info, please check out http://www.bookbaby.com or send an email to [email protected]

best,

Chris at BookBaby


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## Chris @ BookBaby (Apr 19, 2011)

I saw the discussion going on here about BookBaby and wanted to weigh in about our services.

BookBaby is a member of the CD Baby family (the world's largest online distributor of independent music). We've paid out over $180 million to artists. In the 12 years since we began, we've helped level the playing field by revolutionizing online distribution for DIY musicians. We have always put our artists' needs first and, as a result, have become one of the most beloved names in the world of independent music.

The connection between CD Baby and BookBaby is important to make for several reasons. Firstly, we would NEVER withhold any of your sales information or money. As soon as we receive sales reports from our retail partners, we report those sales to you in your accounting dashboard and pay you the following Tuesday. Secondly, it has always been one our primary focuses to provide great customer service. If you ever have any concerns or questions, call or email us. We've got a huge staff of knowledgeable folks waiting to help. Most of them are artists, writers, and musicians themselves, so they're always up for talking shop. Beyond just the services we provide, CD Baby is a community. We always want to foster an environment where artists can help each other, communicate, and shape our company with ideas and feedback. We've become one of the go-to sources for advice, tips, and promotional tools in the music world (with our free DIY Musician blog and podcast), and we're hoping to do the same with BookBaby.

As for some of the specific concerns I've heard in this thread:

1) BookBaby is completely non-exclusive. You are welcome to use other distributors (as long as 2 different distributors aren't delivering the SAME work to the SAME retailer) and encouraged to sell your work directly to your readers through your website and social media efforts. 
2) BookBaby allows you to choose which retailers you'd like to carry your eBook. Want to use us just for iBooks? Great! Already selling direct for Kindle and Nook? Great! Use us for the other companies. Want us to handle the distribution to all of our retail partners? Great. You decide.
3) You do NOT have to use our cover design services. We fully expect most authors to already have covers made. Simply upload those art files during the signup process and we'll deliver your eBook with the existing cover. If you need assistance in the art department, our award-winning Design Studio can help you create a great looking cover.
4) Similarly, if you already have a valid ISBN for your eBook, you are welcome to use that. 
5) Our annual fee of $19 after the first year allows us to keep the lights on in the office without taking a cut of your sales. We think our unique 100% model (allowing you to keep ALL of your earnings) is a big plus for authors.

As I mentioned above, if you have a direct relationship with any of our eBook retail partners already, you are more than welcome to keep working with them and just use BookBaby for the OTHER companies. However, we also feel that there is much to be said for convenience. As the publishing world changes and authors are expected to do more of the heavy lifting when it comes to marketing, promotion, social networking, website maintenance, etc. (you know, all the things that AREN'T writing), time management and simplicity will be very important. You should spend your time writing and marketing, NOT worrying about ePUB conversion, formatting, metadata, deliveries, accounting, and having to upload your eBook and artwork every time you want to work with a new retailer. That is where BookBaby comes in. You work with us, upload your book one time for $99, and we'll deal with all those other headaches for you.

Hope that helps answer some of the questions posed on this thread. But if you need any more info, please check out http://www.bookbaby.com or send an email to [email protected]

best,

Chris at BookBaby


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Despite my prior arguments, I will say that BookBaby comes across as both far more professional, and a far higher value, than BookBrewer, which is what I immediately thought of when I first saw we had another similar company.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

You need to add your info to the "Yellow Pages for Indie Authors" at the top of the page in Writer's Cafe'.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

@Bookbaby: Chris, you guys need to match the royalties Smashwords pays on Sony sales and try to get a relationship going with Kobo and Diesel. If you can do that, you'll have a compelling service. I'll always handle Amazon and B&N myself, but Apple's a pain due to their restrictions and right now Smashwords is a better choice for Sony and gets us to markets you don't cover yet. For someone like me your only real advantage is your higher royalty on Apple, and that's not worth the $120 upfront right now.


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## JaimeRae (Apr 19, 2011)

As a newbie to epublishing after a lot of research, I decided to go with Bookbaby. I had heard via forums, etc. of authors ebooks taking weeks to convert! And then sometimes they had to resubmit and had no problem.  My main reason for going with Bookbaby is that they took care of the formatting for all readers and distributed my ebook to all. Second, I was able to get a cover done inexpensively as I had not been able to find anyone, at least locally to do a decent cover.  Perhaps on my next ebook I may do it on my own., I'll just see how this experience works. In any case, it allows me more time to concentrate on my writing and not get flustered over converting, etc.


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## JaimeRae (Apr 19, 2011)

This is exactly why I'm using BookBaby, so I can focus on my writing and marketing on my sequel and marketing for my first. Perhaps at some point I'll try it on my own, but for now, BookBaby is it. They have been wonderful getting back to me via email, etc. Hopefully, my first novel will be out by the end of April.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2011)

Wuzupbury said:



> As a newbie to epublishing after a lot of research, I decided to go with Bookbaby. I had heard via forums, etc. of authors ebooks taking weeks to convert! And then sometimes they had to resubmit and had no problem. My main reason for going with Bookbaby is that they took care of the formatting for all readers and distributed my ebook to all. Second, I was able to get a cover done inexpensively as I had not been able to find anyone, at least locally to do a decent cover. Perhaps on my next ebook I may do it on my own., I'll just see how this experience works. In any case, it allows me more time to concentrate on my writing and not get flustered over converting, etc.


Can you post a link to the book cover they did for you?


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Wow...what a thread. I am a Book Baby customer. I have just begun with them, so I have no great, earth-shaking revelations to share with you, but I can make a few comments and observations. This will likely be a wordy post, so be advised...

First, I never heard of Smashwords until after I set up shop with Book Baby (Book Baby was recommended to me by a trusted friend). I paid the $99 set-up fee plus the $19 for ISDN. However, in my research, I noted that other sites I searched just for acquiring an ISDN were charging as much as $49. I was most interested in getting my book up on Kindle (as opposed to Sony, iBooks or B&N), and Book Baby offered that service. I am confused by the statements, here, that you can do your own uploading to Amazon for free. When I looked into selling on Amazon, the site said I had to begin a membership that costs $75 up front. Having read all this information, here, I think perhaps I was looking at incorrect information, but I took that to mean my $99 fee at Book Baby wasn't too bad--heck, they would do all the work to convert it and get it online, AND do monthly accounting for me, complete with depositing money directly into my bank account.  In the bargain, I got three other retailers to boot. 

Here's what my experience has been: I sent BB my .doc file and my (self-produced) cover art, along with the $118 on the 12th of April. I received no confirmation email even acknowledging receipt of my money, no less the files. I knew that because I was requesting their services to e-format the book it would take about 10 days (they say 5-10 days, but don't say whether that means business days or calendar days). I waited 10 business days before finally emailing them on the 25th and asking what was happening, since I hadn't heard anything. They informed me that my book's conversion had gone well, and had been done on the 19th. I should expect retailers to take between 2 days and 2 weeks to get my book up "live." I was told to follow the progress on my book's status section, where I looked and found nothing. In a second email, I asked, "From when? It has no status showing." That afternoon, the status changed to "delivery requested" for each retailer. I got a response email from them saying "delivery is pending." I wrote again and said, "Yeah, but only as of today, when the book was ready to be sent on the 19th. So I lost 6 days for no apparent reason?" Their response? "Some retailers only accept our submissions once a week. But yours should have gone out before now, and we don't know why it didn't. We apologize. We are very sorry your experience has been unsatisfactory, because we are a very reputable company with a track record of outstanding service. Please know that if you are truly unhappy, you are not locked into your contract--we can always refund your fees and cancel if you'd like." Okay, that's interesting...the contract I signed said I could only cancel "within 24 hours." But I was 13 days into the process, already, and anxious to see my book for sale! Well, folks, today is the 30th, and my book is available only at Amazon and iBooks. Strangely, it first available at iBooks (on the 26th), and my book's status on Book Baby looked like this: " iBooks - Delivered 4/25; Amazon - Delivery requested 4/25; Sony - Delivery requested 4/25; Barnes & Noble - Delivery rquested 4/25." By the 29th, it said this: "iBooks - Delivered 4/25; Amazon - Delivered (3-4 weeks); Sony - Delivered (3-4 weeks); Barnes & Noble - Delivered (2-4 days)." Really?!? I have to wait 3-4 weeks for it to go live on Sony and Amazon? I was fuming. I also had a big problem: Everyone with an iPhone, iPad, whatever, had access to my book, but I didn't. I don't have one of Apple's handheld devices, and they won't give you access through a desktop PC or Mac. I didn't even know that it had converted properly, or that it looked good to readers, so I emailed Book Baby again, and asked why they don't routinely give authors a "galley" of sorts to examine prior to uploading the book to retailers. They responded that they don't do that because the file looks different on every device. WHAT? How about you send me one so I can decide whether or not I like the way chapters are set off, or the way any device I choose paginates the piece? So they sent me a copy of the e-file--after it had gone to retailers, obviously. I don't like the way it looks, and there are conversion problems that bother me. Moreover, as you can see, my already questionable cover art came out very dark (completely unsatisfactory). I contacted a friend with an iPhone and got him to download it from iBooks. The book looks really good (other than the cover) on the Apple device--I don't know why. However, within one day, it went live at Amazon, and it doesn't look as good on my Kindle for PC software or Kindle for Android on my phone. Today, it's still not on Barnes & Noble or Sony, so I don't know how it'll look on their apps. My cover art is a REAL problem, because to replace it, I have to pay another $99 to Book Baby! I am aware of at least 10 purchases through Amazon and Apple thus far (friends and family), but I have no way to track sales (that I know of) other than on my Book Baby page, where there is no sales information showing as of today. I understand that if I uploaded directly to those sites, I could track my sales in realtime.

I found out about Smashwords only a few days ago. I was shocked that I could use their site tools to do the conversion for free, and that it didn't take 10 days. Smashwords has more retailers than Book Baby, but no Amazon access (which is still a big deal for me, especially if Amazon actually does charge $75 for a seller account). I have been so disappointed in Book Baby, not only in terms of their poor service and lack of communication or clarity on the process, but the fact that I had no opportunity to correct problems prior to it being delivered and cannot now correct them without paying a bunch more money. I also learn here, now, that Smashwords gets a better percentage for authors than does Book Baby, so the 10-15% Smashwords takes is not as big a detriment as it sounded. I was willing to place my trust in BB when I began, but I no longer trust them and am considering starting over with Smashwords, EATING the $118 and removing my Book Baby version from these retailers. The problem is I've already spent a lot of time and effort marketing through FaceBook and emails to my entire contact list. I cannot, now, take down my book and have a delay in its return to availability. My contract with BB prohibits me from going to Smashwords while I have the same product up through Book Baby, so I can't get it up again through Smashwords before removing the BB version. I don't know what to do.

If I don't cancel this dog and pony show prior to receiving money from BB, I'll update at the proper time on how that process works. Sorry for all the verbiage--a bit overmuch, I know. Still, I hope this helps prospective authors and anyone who has been considering dealing with Book Baby.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" I am confused by the statements, here, that you can do your own uploading to Amazon for free. When I looked into selling on Amazon, the site said I had to begin a membership that costs $75 up front."_

1. You can upload to Amazon for free.

2. There is no $75 charge.

3. There is no ISBN required.

4. The same can be done at Barnes & Noble.


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

No fee for me!  I formatted my book myself and uploaded.  I think it took a few days to go live.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

I realize that, now. When I first went to Amazon and tried to look into it, I followed the "sell on Amazon" link, instead of the "self publish on Amazon" one. To sell anything else, they want a $75 account fee.


Terrence OBrien said:


> _" I am confused by the statements, here, that you can do your own uploading to Amazon for free. When I looked into selling on Amazon, the site said I had to begin a membership that costs $75 up front."_
> 
> 1. You can upload to Amazon for free.
> 
> ...


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Ah, I see.  What matters is that you find something you are comfortable with and get that book(s) out there.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Dano, these are mostly just opinion, but I hope they help somewhat.

First - delivery times and 'time to available status'. This isn't always the distributor's fault - actually, it's probably more like 'rarely' the distributor's fault. A huge number of files delivered at once, with the processing required to get data into various databases, images on image servers, etc - it can take a while. Some retailers have a more streamlined process than others. You may find that you have similar problems going through Smashwords.

Second - cover images. There's no excuse I can think of for a cover image to look much different after 'conversion' than it did beforehand. You do, however, need to ensure that you're providing a large, well-made graphic in RGB (because it'll be displayed on electronic screens, not printed on paper). If they need to convert from another colour mode, that might stuff things up.

Third - sales tracking. Any time you use a distributor, you WILL run into sales report delays. It's almost inevitable.

Fourth - Smashwords. Getting into their retail store takes a couple of days, atm, for conversion. They do provide a Style Guide, which you'll need to follow to get into the Premium Catalog (but it's best to follow it first up). Most new authors find this a long, laborious process to start with. After 5 books and multiple editions of most of those, I STILL have issues with getting approved first time. There's always some dang thing I forgot to check (usually line spacing or image placement). However, it does help you provide a clean, pretty-easy-to-read ebook.

I'd say that if you're REALLY unhappy, take BB up on the refund offer and start again elsewhere. Just be aware that your book might be out of the bookstores for up to 2 months while you get everything re-jigged. If they don't refund your money, you should - check your contract - be able to use your ISBN on Smashwords.

FWIW, I don't think BookBaby are bad. But they do seem quite new to the game, and not 100% sure of what authors need to know upfront, and what needs to be disclosed. They don't seem deliberately misleading, but they ARE nevertheless misleading people with the information on their site. I don't like that. Smashwords - it may be difficult to _find_ the information amongst the reams of stuff they provide, but it's generally in there somewhere. 

Whichever you choose, good luck - and keep us updated, eh?


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## Guest (May 1, 2011)

nomesque said:


> Smashwords - it may be difficult to _find_ the information amongst the reams of stuff they provide, but it's generally in there somewhere.


The nice thing however is that Mark is generally very good about answering questions if you can't readily find the info yourself.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks for all your advice, Naomi! I have pretty much decided to go the solo/Smashwords route from here out, but how to do it without losing what's already paid for is the issue. It IS possible to put the same book up through Smashwords as I did through Book Baby, but list them as seperate "editions (i.e., "Smashbook Edition vs. Book Baby Edition), at least according to my reading of the Book Baby contract. It does not appear to me that they have to differ in any substantive way (though they would differ in their cover art). Can't explain why the cover art I sent Book Baby, and which was vibrant and clean looking on my end, came out looking fuzzy and washed out--even the reds are darker and don't pop. I'm still considering how to fix this in the next go-round. Probably a completely different cover design. I'll report back on how the transition goes once I do something.


nomesque said:


> Dano, these are mostly just opinion, but I hope they help somewhat.
> 
> First - delivery times and 'time to available status'. This isn't always the distributor's fault - actually, it's probably more like 'rarely' the distributor's fault. A huge number of files delivered at once, with the processing required to get data into various databases, images on image servers, etc - it can take a while. Some retailers have a more streamlined process than others. You may find that you have similar problems going through Smashwords.
> 
> ...


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Interesting, and perhaps a positive thing...a marketing VP from Book Baby reads the Kindle Boards, for what that's worth. I got an email saying he had read my posts, here, was very disappointed for BB and for me, and wants to talk to me. I'll let everyone know how that goes...


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Their very basic service, to convert a book and then upload it to the main 3 distributors (plus sony), is $99 plus $19 bucks a year.
> 
> Smashwords, Amazon, Pubit: all these don't make a dime unless you do. That means they're invested. That means they want you to succeed.
> 
> Bookbrewer, Bookbaby: avoid. They're preying on the lazy, the unwilling to learn, those who'll send their Word doc plus several hundred dollars and then wonder why their book is languishing in the 300k rankings at Amazon.


Self-publishing is one thing, but those are vanity presses.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Jon, I think you have a misunderstanding of what a "vanity press" is. Vanity presses have nothing to do with e-publishing; they are companies that print paper books at a substantial expense paid by the author. Paying a company for eBook conversion services and distribution (and accounting and royalty dispersal) has no more "vanity" or "press" component than doing it yourself through the same retailers.


Jon Olson said:


> Self-publishing is one thing, but those are vanity presses.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I can't comment at all on the performance of BookBaby. However, its pricing scheme shows some evolution in self-publishing.

We already have models where a firm will put a book up on various retail platforms in exchange for a percentage of revenue. There is no cap on the amount that will be paid to the firm. Suppose a book sells for $2.99 and the firm takes 30 cents from each sale. If the book sells 63 copies, then the firm takes $19. If it sells 6,300 copies, then the firm takes $1,900. There is no limit to the annual amount the firm takes, and there is no limit to the total amount the firm takes. An author pays between zero and an unlimited amount to have his book placed on retail platforms.

We can look at the BookBaby pricing as a fixed entry amount plus an annual cap. $99 is the initial price. Each subsequent year, the price is $19. Let's translate that into copies of books at 30 cents per book. This is what the first firm would have charged.

The initial $99 is covered by the first 330 books sold.
The annual $19 fee is covered by the first 63 copies sold each year.

So we can look at the BookBaby scheme as a one-time fee plus a capped percentage of annual sales. The other scheme takes an unlimited percentage of sales, but charges no minimum fee.

Each of these schemes can be implemented well or poorly. Each can be managed well or poorly. Each can have additional service fees. Those are certainly very important in choosing one over the other. However, limiting consideration to pricing, the capped percentage system is an interesting development, and one that could have significant impact in the future as more competitors enter the market.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

I think eventually the capped approach will be the way to go for authors who will be moderately successful. Authors don't trade a percentage for a book cover, for editing, etc. Why should they trade a percentage for simply uploading a book to an online retailer? 

Right now Smaswords offers the most attractive deal but if Bookbaby can offer a better percentage on Sony and expand to include Kobo, they'd be competitive.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Competitive in a financial sense, for sure...but, again, there are the intangibles. And, at least until my pending discussion with the Book Baby marketing VP this coming week, my overall experience with BB has not been a very pleasant one. Moreover, what many here advocate (and have convinced me of the benefits obtaining thereto) is the self-conversion and self-uploading to various retailers. By doing this, timing, royalties, and real-time sales-monitoring are all under the author's control. While it may be more time-consuming and considerably less convenient, doing it all by one's self would eliminate the hassles I have gone through.


Asher MacDonald said:


> I think eventually the capped approach will be the way to go for authors who will be moderately successful. Authors don't trade a percentage for a book cover, for editing, etc. Why should they trade a percentage for simply uploading a book to an online retailer?
> 
> Right now Smaswords offers the most attractive deal but if Bookbaby can offer a better percentage on Sony and expand to include Kobo, they'd be competitive.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I actually think a Word template designed for a book is the key to successful loading of a book to Amazon, B&N, and Apple. If the right template is used, and it enforces a discipline, the book can be converted to the proper file type by Mobi, Calibre, and Pages, but there is no "formatting step" done by the author. It is created with the proper formatting.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes...there has been quite a lot of discussion about the accounting costs/benefits of the competing companies. From my perspective, the notion that you are unlikely to recoup the initial costs of utilizing Book Baby is exceptionally pessimistic. I would waste $100 just for the benefit of my own optimism if it takes an "unlikely" number of sales to recoup my start-up costs. I have sold at least three-dozen copies of my book in 10 days through Amazon alone, though, so I don't think I'll end up losing in the end. I feel like the vehement opposition forces, here--particularly those that do the math and decide it isn't worth it to use Book Baby--are either selling themselves short or have too little hope that their books are worthy of being marketed (where I think their REAL efforts should be concentrated).


Terrence OBrien said:


> I can't comment at all on the performance of BookBaby. However, its pricing scheme shows some evolution in self-publishing.
> 
> We already have models where a firm will put a book up on various retail platforms in exchange for a percentage of revenue. There is no cap on the amount that will be paid to the firm. Suppose a book sells for $2.99 and the firm takes 30 cents from each sale. If the book sells 63 copies, then the firm takes $19. If it sells 6,300 copies, then the firm takes $1,900. There is no limit to the annual amount the firm takes, and there is no limit to the total amount the firm takes. An author pays between zero and an unlimited amount to have his book placed on retail platforms.
> 
> ...


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

You can't count Amazon sales when you look at the cost of Bookbaby vs. Smashwords. What really counts is Apple. That's the only edge Bookbaby has right now, with a 70% royalty vs. 60% on Smashwords. So in the course of -- let's say two years -- you need that extra 10% royalty to recoup your $140 you spend with Bookbaby. 

What makes sense if you're talking about just a few books is to pick the vendor that gives you best return for each market. Upload directly with Amazon and B&N. Use Smashwords for Sony, Kobo, and Diesel and Smashwords itself. If you think you'll recoup that $140, use Bookbaby for Apple. Better yet, if you think you're in it for the long haul, invest in a Mac that will let you upload yourself to Apple.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

I disagree, Asher. You can count everything. The simple fact is that Smashwords takes 10-15% of all your sales forever. Book Baby doesn't take a penny. Just take an example of selling 1000 books and work the numbers. There is no way you earn more through Smashwords than through Book Baby, no matter where the books were sold or how you do the math. It is not relevant to me that Smashwords gets you a better deal on certain sites, so that, after their cut, you're as good or better off on the sale royalties. Because Book Baby overcomes that the minute you've recouped the $118 (not $140, as you keep saying), and don't owe them anything more until the yearly $19 fee comes due. Frankly, $19 a year is worth the service of having them administer the royalty-accounting and depositing from 4 different retailers, so I don't even equate that with a fee-per-sale cost.


Asher MacDonald said:


> You can't count Amazon sales when you look at the cost of Bookbaby vs. Smashwords. What really counts is Apple. That's the only edge Bookbaby has right now, with a 70% royalty vs. 60% on Smashwords. So in the course of -- let's say two years -- you need that extra 10% royalty to recoup your $140 you spend with Bookbaby.
> 
> What makes sense if you're talking about just a few books is to pick the vendor that gives you best return for each market. Upload directly with Amazon and B&N. Use Smashwords for Sony, Kobo, and Diesel and Smashwords itself. If you think you'll recoup that $140, use Bookbaby for Apple. Better yet, if you think you're in it for the long haul, invest in a Mac that will let you upload yourself to Apple.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

But Smashwords gives you a better percentage at some of the retailers -- Sony, I believe, is the big one. And Smashwords gets you on Kobo and Diesel, though I have never heard of anyone selling much on Diesel. 

There's no reason why you couldn't use Smashwords for some markets and Bookbaby for others. You're a writer with a handful of titles, not a publisher with hundreds. It's not that much extra work to work with an extra vendor. And Smashwords gives you another outlet -- Smashwords. I've made $20 there this month so far. Not much, but $20 multiplied by several months will add up to something. And it takes me no more than a few minutes to upload a title to Smashwords. There's absolutely no reason I can see not to use Smashwords to sell on Smashwords, Kobo, and Diesel because I can't get to those markets otherwise. And as long as Smashwords offers a better percentage for Sony sales, I'll go with them there, too. 

Ultimately I think it makes sense to go direct as much as possible and bypass services like Smashwords and Bookbaby. There is no easy way to do that with Sony, Kobo, and Diesel yet, and Apple's a bit of a pain for us PC users with their requirements. 

And I hope Bookbaby figures out how to match Smashwords at Sony and gets on Kobo and Diesel, too. It's good for us to have these vendors competing with one another.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Better yet, if you think you're in it for the long haul, invest in a Mac that will let you upload yourself to Apple."_

I took that option and added an iMac to my stable of four PCs and an iPad. I had been looking for an excuse for years, and when it presented itself I jumped on it. At a royalty of $2 per book it will take 600 Apple sales to break even. Only 595 to go! (The iBook sales have a bit to go to match Amazon sales.) The iMac is so great I will be eternally grateful to iBooks for restricting access to Macs.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> Jon, I think you have a misunderstanding of what a "vanity press" is. Vanity presses have nothing to do with e-publishing; they are companies that print paper books at a substantial expense paid by the author. Paying a company for eBook conversion services and distribution (and accounting and royalty dispersal) has no more "vanity" or "press" component than doing it yourself through the same retailers.


That's dangerous thinking. Actually, there are a number of companies that are vanity press type operations who prey on authors looking to epublish.

They charge a substantial amount of money for services. They promise the sames thing BookBaby and Smashwords do. The difference is that these operations are trying to dupe authors. They don't deliver on their promises or do so in such a way that involves even more expense for author. On another forum, not to be named, someone paid close to $1000 for formatting, conversion and a crappy cover only to have their book distributed to the company's website which has no traffic except for other authors looking to be taken for ride.

There will always be people out there looking to separate an author from their money. Like authors, they are quick to adapt to the changing publishing landscape.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes, Richard, and you have made it very clear in other threads that you think anyone who doesn't do every aspect themselves is being foolish. I just don't happen to agree with you. And what I said, here, is that these companies (Book Baby and Smashwords) are NOT vanity presses--there is a distinction between author-paid print publishing and epublishing that has no "real" expense associated with it. They are also not the fly-by-night or rip-off firms that you seem so concerned about. What is dangerous is anyone contracting with any fly-by-night outfit. That's not what we're talking about, here.


kyrin said:


> That's dangerous thinking. Actually, there are a number of companies that are vanity press type operations who prey on authors looking to epublish.
> 
> They charge a substantial amount of money for services. They promise the sames thing BookBaby and Smashwords do. The difference is that these operations are trying to dupe authors. They don't deliver on their promises or do so in such a way that involves even more expense for author. On another forum, not to be named, someone paid close to $1000 for formatting, conversion and a crappy cover only to have their book distributed to the company's website which has no traffic except for other authors looking to be taken for ride.
> 
> There will always be people out there looking to separate an author from their money. Like authors, they are quick to adapt to the changing publishing landscape.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

DanoJ said:


> I disagree, Asher. You can count everything. The simple fact is that Smashwords takes 10-15% of all your sales forever. Book Baby doesn't take a penny. Just take an example of selling 1000 books and work the numbers. There is no way you earn more through Smashwords than through Book Baby, no matter where the books were sold or how you do the math.


Already done in this thread - here[/quote]. Those end numbers are gross author income AFTER distributor costs.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks, Naomi...


nomesque said:


> Already done in this thread - here. Those end numbers are gross author income AFTER distributor costs.


http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,61497.msg1021521.html#msg1021521


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> Yes, Richard, and you have made it very clear in other threads that you think anyone who doesn't do every aspect themselves is being foolish. I just don't happen to agree with you. And what I said, here, is that these companies (Book Baby and Smashwords) are NOT vanity presses--there is a distinction between author-paid print publishing and epublishing that has no "real" expense associated with it. They are also not the fly-by-night or rip-off firms that you seem so concerned about. What is dangerous is anyone contracting with any fly-by-night outfit. That's not what we're talking about, here.


Actually, I said you should do what you feels right for you. Every author needs to find their own way. Every author has a different way of doing things.

When have I every said using BookBaby or some other method is foolish. I did say that I would not use them and I gave reasons why I wouldn't do so. It's called stating an opinion and then giving reasons for that opinion.

I also never said BookBaby or Smashwords was a vanity press. I said they weren't. They deliver on their promises. You were the one who mentioned that there are no vanity presses where epublishing is concerned. I commented on that part and even quoted the section I was talking about.



DanoJ said:


> Vanity presses have nothing to do with e-publishing; they are companies that print paper books at a substantial expense paid by the author.


EDIT: This is what you wrote and the part I was referring to in my post. Maybe you didn't know this but some vanity press operations have epublishing divisions. I had a lot more to say about the whole foolish fhing but that would derail the thread so I'll reserve those for private messages.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

That's right, Richard...there are no vanity presses where epublishing is concerned. I think you are conflating vanity presses with unscrupulous firms that charge a lot of money and then don't provide what they promised. That is not what vanity presses are, either (though there may be some that are unscrupulous). You may not approve of vanity presses for whatever reason, but it is equally questionable to suggest that, because you don't think people should use them, they are dishonest or don't offer a viable product. Createspace is a vanity publisher, as is Lulu, and I don't know anyone who has used them and thinks they are unscrupulous rip-off firms. The real danger, in my view, of conflating the two is that epublishing is already in an uphill battle to gain prima facie legitimacy among authors, agents, publishing companies, and even sometimes readers. It doesn't help the cause for people to think of the "service distributors," like Book Baby and Smashwords, as vanity presses (as Jon specifically called them--he was the one I quoted on that issue, not you). With reference to you, my comment had to do with your many previous comments about each of these companies that were, in your opinion, preying on authors who ought to be doing everything for themselves. If I am mis-characterizing your oft-stated position, my apologies.


kyrin said:


> Actually, I said you should do what you feels right for you. Every author needs to find their own way. Every author has a different way of doing things.
> 
> When have I every said using BookBaby or some other method is foolish. I did say that I would not use them and I gave reasons why I wouldn't do so. It's called stating an opinion and then giving reasons for that opinion.
> 
> ...


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> That's right, Richard...there are no vanity presses where epublishing is concerned. I think you are conflating vanity presses with unscrupulous firms that charge a lot of money and then don't provide what they promised. That is not what vanity presses are, either (though there may be some that are unscrupulous). You may not approve of vanity presses for whatever reason, but it is equally questionable to suggest that, because you don't think people should use them, they are dishonest or don't offer a viable product. Createspace is a vanity publisher, as is Lulu, and I don't know anyone who has used them and thinks they are unscrupulous rip-off firms. The real danger, in my view, of conflating the two is that epublishing is already in an uphill battle to gain prima facie legitimacy among authors, agents, publishing companies, and even sometimes readers. It doesn't help the cause for people to think of the "service distributors," like Book Baby and Smashwords, as vanity presses (as Jon specifically called them--he was the one I quoted on that issue, not you). With reference to you, my comment had to do with your many previous comments about each of these companies that were, in your opinion, preying on authors who ought to be doing everything for themselves. If I am mis-characterizing your oft-stated position, my apologies.


I think you're the one who is a little confused about things. Print on Demand Service Providers does not equal Vanity Press. Those are two very different things as far as I'm concerned (and a lot of people in the publishing world).

Vanity Press is a negative and derogatory term used by authors and other when talking about a publishing house that publishes books at the author's expense. These publishers are unscrupulous and look to take advantage of authors. Some are even outright scams. For example, you query a publisher who wants you to sign a contract with them and they respond by saying we'll publish your book but it will cost you. There is no positive connotation to the term vanity press. I don't use the term when talking about reputable publishers or service providers.

Createspace and Lulu are service providers who offer Print on Demand services. That's different from being a Vanity Press. They don't come across as a publisher looking to publish your book and then ask you to pay money to do so. They don't pull a bait and switch or do any of the other things vanity presses are known for. They are upfront and honest about what they offer and their costs. They say "You want your book published, these are the services we provide and this is how much it will cost. We're not going to tell you your book is good to get you to spend your money with us."

I


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

No, Richard...I'm not confused. I have been involved in the academic publishing-realm for a number of years (I am an academic editor by profession), and many University professors, colleges and departments use POD firms. POD, while it shares the aspect of vanity presses that the author pays for the print run, differs in that USUALLY the printing requested is done to fill a demand, or order, that already exists. Authors who have managed to build a paperback following, either at a local bookstore or at festivals, for instance, would have customer orders filled by a POD outfit. Vanity presses ordinarily don't fill that demand; instead, they simply cater to the author who wants to see his or her book in print, but who doesn't necessarily have pre-orders for it. Once again, scam companies exist in any industry, but not all vanity publishing houses are unscrupulous, despite the common connotation.


kyrin said:


> I think you're the one who is a little confused about things. Print on Demand Service Providers does not equal Vanity Press. Those are two very different things as far as I'm concerned (and a lot of people in the publishing world).
> 
> Vanity Press is a negative and derogatory term used by authors and other when talking about a publishing house that publishes books at the author's expense. These publishers are unscrupulous and look to take advantage of authors. Some are even outright scams. For example, you query a publisher who wants you to sign a contract with them and they respond by saying we'll publish your book but it will cost you. There is no positive connotation to the term vanity press. I don't use the term when talking about reputable publishers or service providers.
> 
> ...


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"Better yet, if you think you're in it for the long haul, invest in a Mac that will let you upload yourself to Apple."_
> 
> I took that option and added an iMac to my stable of four PCs and an iPad. I had been looking for an excuse for years, and when it presented itself I jumped on it. At a royalty of $2 per book it will take 600 Apple sales to break even. Only 595 to go! (The iBook sales have a bit to go to match Amazon sales.) The iMac is so great I will be eternally grateful to iBooks for restricting access to Macs.


You can write off some of the purchase, can't you? Considering that, you're probably closer than 595 sales to break even.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> No, Richard...I'm not confused. I have been involved in the academic publishing-realm for a number of years (I am an academic editor by profession), and many University professors, colleges and departments use POD firms. POD, while it shares the aspect of vanity presses that the author pays for the print run, differs in that USUALLY the printing requested is done to fill a demand, or order, that already exists. Authors who have managed to build a paperback following, either at a local bookstore or at festivals, for instance, would have customer orders filled by a POD outfit. Vanity presses ordinarily don't fill that demand; instead, they simply cater to the author who wants to see his or her book in print, but who doesn't necessarily have pre-orders for it. Once again, scam companies exist in any industry, but not all vanity publishing houses are unscrupulous, despite the common connotation.


Um, I was employed by a Columbia University for six years. That said, being employed at a university or being an academic editor doesn't mean you might know the definition and terms as they are used by fiction writers and author associations. I'm not saying you are wrong but you're looking at it from the academic world. You might not be allowing for the possibility that other fields and professionals might use the terms in a different manner.

Here is what I'm using. It's also what's used by the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) and a number of other associations. The terms might not be current because the definitions can change over time.

A commercial publisher purchases the right to publish a manuscript (usually together with other rights, known as subsidiary rights), and pays the author a royalty on sales. Most also pay an advance on royalties. Commercial publishers are highly selective, publishing only a tiny percentage of manuscripts submitted. They handle every aspect of editing, publication, distribution, and marketing. There are no costs to the author. These are your traditional publishers.

A vanity publisher prints and binds a book at the author's sole expense. Costs include the publisher's profit and overhead, so vanity publishing is usually a good deal more expensive than self-publishing. All rights and completed books are the property of the author, and the author retains all proceeds from sales. Vanity publishers may exclude objectionable content such as pornography, but otherwise do not screen for quality.

A subsidy publisher also takes payment from the author to print and bind a book, but contributes a portion of the cost and/or provides adjunct services such as editing, distribution, warehousing, and marketing. Theoretically, subsidy publishers are selective. A subsidy publisher claims at least some rights, though the claim may be limited and non-exclusive. The completed books are the property of the publisher, which owns the ISBN, and remain in the publisher's possession until sold. Income to the writer comes in the form of a royalty.

Self-publishing, like vanity publishing, requires the author to bear the entire cost of publication, and also to handle all marketing, distribution, storage, etc. However, rather than paying for a pre-set package of services, the author puts those services together himself. Because every aspect of the process can be out to bid, self-publishing can be much more cost effective than vanity publishing; it can also result in a higher-quality product. All rights, the ISBN, and completed books are owned by the author, who keeps all proceeds from sales.

While there are honest vanity publishers that fulfill contractual promises, there are also many that engage in a wide range of unethical or fraudulent practices, including misrepresenting themselves as commercial publishers, grossly overcharging for their services, reneging on contract obligations, producing shoddy books, failing to print the number of books contracted for, providing kickbacks to agents who refer manuscripts&#8230;the list goes on. These are the ones that are referred to as Vanity Press.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Richard, for Heaven's sake...you don't need to quote me the entire SFWA definitions page to explain your point of view.

I did NOT tell you what my profession is to give gravity to my knowledge of word definitions...I told you to explain WHY I know what POD is as opposed to vanity presses. We use POD services in the academic environment quite frequently, but never a vanity press. My academic experience or point of view does not change what the companies do. Vanity presses generally do not serve the "order-filling" capacity that POD's do--and I don't care whether your book is a Jungian philosophy work or a preschool picture-book--the two kinds of companies still serve different purposes. And what in the world makes you think I've never read SFWA's web site or that I don't belong to any writer's associations or groups? It so happens that I am very well aware of how and why you define things the way you do (and where you get all your definitions from). But it is your choice to believe as you do that makes me respond to you at all.

Feel free to use whatever definition you'd like to use, but please understand my point in all of this: There is nothing inherently wrong with epublishing through Smashwords, OR Book Baby, OR self-publishing through a vanity press, OR a POD, depending upon your purposes and expectations. The wholesale warning or suggestion that Book Baby is less worthwhile (more parasitic) than Smashwords, or that they are ripping people off "like so many vanity publishers" we are all aware of strikes me as not only incorrect, but unsupported and irresponsible. My experience with Book Baby has not so far been a very pleasant one, but this had nothing to do with them being unscrupulous, or scamming, or operating with an unfair rate structure--it has to do with lousy communication and documentation practices. Even there, the VP of Marketing at Book Baby, having read the Kindle Boards, will be calling me this week to discuss his displeasure with my experience (not something I think an unscrupulous company would do).



kyrin said:


> Um, I was employed by a Columbia University for six years. That said, being employed at a university or being an academic editor doesn't mean you might know the definition and terms as they are used by fiction writers and author associations. I'm not saying you are wrong but you're looking at it from the academic world. You might not be allowing for the possibility that other fields and professionals might use the terms in a different manner.
> 
> Here is what I'm using. It's also what's used by the SFWA (Science Fiction Writers of America) and a number of other associations. The terms might not be current because the definitions can change over time.
> 
> ...


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with epublishing through Smashwords, OR Book Baby, OR self-publishing through a vanity press, OR a POD, depending upon your purposes and expectations.


I never said there was anything inherently wrong especially with regards to Smashwords. Hell, I've had nothing but good experiences with Smashwords except for one time when of my books was in the queue forever and a problem with Kobo. Mark took care of both problems immediately which changed a negative into a positive. Smashwords isn't perfect, few things are but I am happy with them. Earlier in the thread, I expressed concerns about BookBaby, that was it. I wasn't the only one. Since then, those concerns have been addressed.



DanoJ said:


> The wholesale warning or suggestion that Book Baby is less worthwhile (more parasitic) than Smashwords, or that they are ripping people off "like so many vanity publishers" we are all aware of strikes me as not only incorrect, but unsupported and irresponsible.


That statement was made over a month ago based on the information at hand. At the time, BookBaby raised a few alarm bells that warranted caution. I didn't run to my blog or twitter or facebook to yell BOOKBABY is a scam. I said they seemed like a vanity press operation and I stated the reasons for my opinion and why I thought it might warrant caution in dealing with them.

This might come as a surprise but not everyone is aware of things. Someone new to publishing and writing might not know the same things you or I take for granted. It's not irresponsible to alert someone to possible danger if you can do it in a way that is responsible. Running off and yelling a company is a scam without proof is irresponsible. It can also get you sued. People, myself included, expressed concerns. The following post I made on the same day said



> I'm not saying Bookbaby is a scam but I put it in the same category as all those businesses that have popped up looking for ways to part a writer from their money.


I still stand by making both statements considering the information I had at the time. Businesses want to make money. There is nothing wrong with that but sometimes newer entries into a field can have issues that established businesses do not. As for my opinion about Smashwords and BookBaby, it's one I am entitled to. At this time, I think Smashwords is a better deal in the short and long term for the way I do things.



DanoJ said:


> My experience with Book Baby has not so far been a very pleasant one, but this had nothing to do with them being unscrupulous, or scamming, or operating with an unfair rate structure--it has to do with lousy communication and documentation practices. Even there, the VP of Marketing at Book Baby, having read the Kindle Boards, will be calling me this week to discuss his displeasure with my experience (not something I think an unscrupulous company would do).


Again, no one recently has called them unscrupulous. It's those lousy documentation practices that led to people having concerns about them. If you want to dwell in the past by quoting things from four pages and thirty days ago, please do so but things change. What people thought a month ago may not be the same as what they think today. The thread and people's opinions have evolved.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Fire bad. Tree pretty.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

No Kill I

((Been wanting to use that Trek quote for a while))


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




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## Emeline Danvers (Apr 11, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> Their very basic service, to convert a book and then upload it to the main 3 distributors (plus sony), is $99 plus $19 bucks a year.
> 
> Wait, why am I paying 20 bucks a year forever for a one time service? Oh, that's right. Because I'm stupid.


Yup.

If someone doesn't want to learn the formatting, go to Streetlight Graphics. for $40, they'll do all the major formats. Can't beat that with a stick. Haven't used them yet, but I hear they're good to work with.

Does that make me lazy if I pay someone to format my book? Well, I have six young children, all homeschooled, and I'm trying to write a book at the same time, soooo.... you tell me.



Spoiler



(Okay, I _am _lazy, but in this case, I call it delegation.)


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Emeline Danvers said:


> Yup.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to learn the formatting, go to Streetlight Graphics. for $40, they'll do all the major formats. Can't beat that with a stick. Haven't used them yet, but I hear they're good to work with.
> 
> Does that make me lazy if I pay someone to format my book? Well, I have six young children, all homeschooled, and I'm trying to write a book at the same time, soooo.... you tell me.


By the same argument, why are you giving someone a percentage of sale after sale when someone else can do the same thing for you at a flat fee?


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Both valid arguments, aren't they...


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Why anybody wants to use Bookbaby or Smashwords for Kindle / BN uploads is beyond me.

Getting direct deposits from multiple vendors won't kill you.  And it's not that complicated to fill out direct deposit forms and get the money deposited.  If you ever had a job that did direct deposit, you know how to do it.  Heck, if you ever got your tax refund deposited directly to your bank account, you know how to fill out a simple form.  Don't say you can't do it and let somebody take your money.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

NadiaLee said:


> Why anybody wants to use Bookbaby or Smashwords for Kindle / BN uploads is beyond me.
> 
> Getting direct deposits from multiple vendors won't kill you. And it's not that complicated to fill out direct deposit forms and get the money deposited. If you ever had a job that did direct deposit, you know how to do it. Heck, if you ever got your tax refund deposited directly to your bank account, you know how to fill out a simple form. Don't say you can't do it and let somebody take your money.


In my case, I use Smashwords primarily to reach the Apple iBookstore and Sony while I handle Kindle myself.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

kyrin said:


> In my case, I use Smashwords primarily to reach the Apple iBookstore and Sony while I handle Kindle myself.


Yeah. I use Smashwords for Apple, Sony & Diesel, but the number of sales there is so miniscule that I don't see any point in paying something like Bookbaby.

Kindle for me is the most important vendor b/c I sell so much there, then Nook. And I don't need Smashwords or Bookbaby for either of them.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

DanoJ said:


> Jon, I think you have a misunderstanding of what a "vanity press" is. Vanity presses have nothing to do with e-publishing; they are companies that print paper books at a substantial expense paid by the author. Paying a company for eBook conversion services and distribution (and accounting and royalty dispersal) has no more "vanity" or "press" component than doing it yourself through the same retailers.


I don't think it matters whether it's paper or not. Anytime you're paying a publisher to put your work out, that's a vanity press.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

NadiaLee said:


> Getting direct deposits from multiple vendors won't kill you.


No, but when you are actually selling on over 30 different sites, it WILL consume an enormous amount of administrative and accounting time, which for those of us that run businesses has a financial cost. I am either spending several hours a week personally reconciling 30 different accounts OR I am paying a staff member to do this OR I let Smashwords and Mobipocket take a hit on each sale and do it for me.

If you only have one or two books, maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal. I have over 100 digital products between or RPG and fiction lines, so no, I really do NOT want to deal with dozens of different vendors.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Does SW provide a single monthly wire transfer that represents sales at all the different vendors? If so, how does one get info on sales at the different vendors?

How about Amazon? If an author has two books on Amazon, does he get one or two wire transfers per month from Amazon?


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No, but when you are actually selling on over 30 different sites, it WILL consume an enormous amount of administrative and accounting time, which for those of us that run businesses has a financial cost. I am either spending several hours a week personally reconciling 30 different accounts OR I am paying a staff member to do this OR I let Smashwords and Mobipocket take a hit on each sale and do it for me.
> 
> If you only have one or two books, maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal. I have over 100 digital products between or RPG and fiction lines, so no, I really do NOT want to deal with dozens of different vendors.


Most self-pubbing authors do NOT get 30 different deposits from 30 different sites.

The main ones are Kindle & Nook, paid monthly, and Smashwords (which pools $ from SW direct, Kobo, Diesel, Sony & Apple), paid quarterly.

It doesn't consume an "enormous amount of administrative & accounting time". If it takes that much time & effort to reconcile 3 accounts, you need to reconsider your business process.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Does SW provide a single monthly wire transfer that represents sales at all the different vendors? If so, how does one get info on sales at the different vendors?
> 
> How about Amazon? If an author has two books on Amazon, does he get one or two wire transfers per month from Amazon?


It doesn't matter how many books you have w/ Amazon or Nook. They send you ONE transfer per month (1 for Kindle, 1 for Nook).


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Does SW provide a single monthly wire transfer that represents sales at all the different vendors? If so, how does one get info on sales at the different vendors?
> 
> How about Amazon? If an author has two books on Amazon, does he get one or two wire transfers per month from Amazon?


SW makes one payment for all vendors. You just run the sales report and it is broken down by vendor and title. You get one single payment. Same thing with Mobipocket. I just run the sales report and it breaks down by title and vendor.

Amazon pays one lump sum for all sales on Amazon.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Smashwords and Book Baby are not publishers, Jon.


Jon Olson said:


> I don't think it matters whether it's paper or not. Anytime you're paying a publisher to put your work out, that's a vanity press.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

NadiaLee said:


> Most self-pubbing authors do NOT get 30 different deposits from 30 different sites.
> 
> The main ones are Kindle & Nook, paid monthly, and Smashwords (which pools $ from SW direct, Kobo, Diesel, Sony & Apple), paid quarterly.
> 
> It doesn't consume an "enormous amount of administrative & accounting time". If it takes that much time & effort to reconcile 3 accounts, you need to reconsider your business process.


I'm not sure what you are arguing about. You said there was no reason to use a service like Smashwords or an e-distributor. I was pointing out that there IS a huge reason to do so...reach. You can focus exclusively on Kindle and Nook and be essentially enslaved to them, or you can use e-dsitributors that spread out your risk over dozens of sites. Mobipocket gets my books on over 20 sites, many of them overseas. Individually, no one site they distribute to would be worth the effort of setting up individually because they have small sales volume. But as a whole, they add up to a lot of sales. Same thing with Smashwords. Individually, Kobo, Deisel, Apple, etc would not be worth the effort. But as part of the whole, those extra sales have value. So I get the best of both worlds. I have a limited number of reports I need to deal with while increasing my distribution network. And whenever those distributors add a new vendor to their list, I don't have to do anything. They handle it.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

I am still reading this thread, but I just had to stop and throw in my two cents here.

I am honestly flabbergasted a bit horrified that twice now Keryl has been asked if she's shilling for BookBaby.  Why?  Because she's asking questions and engaging in a bit of critical thinking.  Yet nobody has asked Julie or David or other people who are in favor of Smashwords if they're shills.  Not that I think they are   But seriously, you can't engage in a debate and / or ask someone to clarify a point without being called a shill, or asked if you work for the company?

Disappointed in some KB authors today, truly.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Maybe I've missed something...I haven't seen anyone asking Keryl if she's shilling for Book Baby. I haven't seen anyone ask if anyone else is working for Book Baby, either. Is there something wonky with my browser?


Arkali said:


> I am still reading this thread, but I just had to stop and throw in my two cents here.
> 
> I am honestly flabbergasted a bit horrified that twice now Keryl has been asked if she's shilling for BookBaby. Why? Because she's asking questions and engaging in a bit of critical thinking. Yet nobody has asked Julie or David or other people who are in favor of Smashwords if they're shills. Not that I think they are  But seriously, you can't engage in a debate and / or ask someone to clarify a point without being called a shill, or asked if you work for the company?
> 
> Disappointed in some KB authors today, truly.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

DanoJ said:


> Maybe I've missed something...I haven't seen anyone asking Keryl if she's shilling for Book Baby. I haven't seen anyone ask if anyone else is working for Book Baby, either. Is there something wonky with my browser?


I started reading this thread this morning, from page one. One person asked her if she works for BookBaby. The second person asked her if she was a shill, or at least made a heavy implication. The first instance was early on in the thread, the second instance was about two pages back.



> It's starting to sound less like a "friend told me" question and more like you work for them. No offense... just a wee bit weird.





> Are you shilling for Bookbaby? Because your constantly talking down Smashwords and talking up Bookbaby.


In fairness, both comments were made some time ago, but they were never retracted and I just saw them today. And I didn't care for either comment, so decided to say something.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Oh, okay...my bad. I think, as far as I could tell, I seem to be the only one defending Book Baby these days (which is funny, because my first post here was to complain about their service). There is entirely too much sensationalist or hyperbolic rhetoric on this subject, in my opinion. Everyone's acting like the sky is falling if people use Book Baby or Smashwords. Some think all companies that take any money for their services are evil or corrupt (how should those folks make a living, one wonders?). Gee Whiz...


Arkali said:


> I started reading this thread this morning, from page one. One person asked her if she works for BookBaby. The second person asked her if she was a shill, or at least made a heavy implication. The first instance was early on in the thread, the second instance was about two pages back.
> 
> In fairness, both comments were made some time ago, but they were never retracted and I just saw them today. And I didn't care for either comment, so decided to say something.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

DanoJ said:


> Oh, okay...my bad. I think, as far as I could tell, I seem to be the only one defending Book Baby these days (which is funny, because my first post here was to complain about their service). There is entirely too much sensationalist or hyperbolic rhetoric on this subject, in my opinion. Everyone's acting like the sky is falling if people use Book Baby or Smashwords. Some think all companies that take any money for their services are evil or corrupt (how should those folks make a living, one wonders?). Gee Whiz...


Perhaps they live somewhere that the landlord doesn't expect to be paid?  Or the grocer, or the utility companies...

To clarify my post, and it's somewhat off-topic, but any provider of services is going to charge money for said service. Whether or not it is worth it to you depends on how much money your time is worth. That little nugget holds true no matter the service, though it assumes that talent doesn't play a part in the service being offered.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

DanoJ said:


> Everyone's acting like the sky is falling if people use Book Baby or Smashwords. Some think all companies that take any money for their services are evil or corrupt (how should those folks make a living, one wonders?). Gee Whiz...


I think it is called "penny wise, dollar foolish." Of course anyone who provides a service should be paid. But some folks get so enamoured with holding on to every single penny that they don't realize they might save money allowing others to do things instead of trying to do it themselves.

I work in contract packaging. Do people really think major companies individually process sales at each retailer? They use wholesalers and distributors. Do you think Colgate manually processes sales to Jane Doe Supermarket for three cases of toothpaste? Heck no. They deal with distributors who handle the small accounts and only assign their people to handle the major ones. And how do those distributors get paid? By taking a percentage of the sale. Publishers have used distributors for decades. You only assign your own people to the major accounts and you let the distributor handle the smaller ones. Distributors are part of a functional supply chain, and services like Book Baby and Smashwords are just digital distributors.

My whole point is for people to look at HOW a distributor gets paid.  Distribution is an ongoing service. My concern with Book Baby was that there was a huge financial investment up front and no guarantee of a return. A distributor that gets all the money up front does not have a lot of motivation to actually distribute. Their income depends on merely convincing producers to pay them, not on convincing retailers to stock. Whereas a distributor that gets a percentage of each sale has a vested interest in making sure your books are available in the most places to the most people.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

I understand your concerns about BookBaby...others have voiced the same notion that "they have no vested interest." I disagree, primarily because I see a great value in the "good will" that accrues when a company's services are responsive to customer needs. Remember that BookBaby is a division of a much larger company (CDBaby and DiscMakers among their divisions) with a long company history and a reputation to uphold. Also, I remain a little bit disheartened at the knee-jerk negativity to their pricing and business format that seems almost ubiquitous, here, from people (nobody in particular inferred) with no actual experience dealing with the company. I feel like folks should do some research, at the very least, into how a company performs in the real world before assuming that they might be predatory or that they lack a vested interest and therefore do not perform as they promise.


Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think it is called "penny wise, dollar foolish." Of course anyone who provides a service should be paid. But some folks get so enamoured with holding on to every single penny that they don't realize they might save money allowing others to do things instead of trying to do it themselves.
> 
> I work in contract packaging. Do people really think major companies individually process sales at each retailer? They use wholesalers and distributors. Do you think Colgate manually processes sales to Jane Doe Supermarket for three cases of toothpaste? Heck no. They deal with distributors who handle the small accounts and only assign their people to handle the major ones. And how do those distributors get paid? By taking a percentage of the sale. Publishers have used distributors for decades. You only assign your own people to the major accounts and you let the distributor handle the smaller ones. Distributors are part of a functional supply chain, and services like Book Baby and Smashwords are just digital distributors.
> 
> My whole point is for people to look at HOW a distributor gets paid. Distribution is an ongoing service. My concern with Book Baby was that there was a huge financial investment up front and no guarantee of a return. A distributor that gets all the money up front does not have a lot of motivation to actually distribute. Their income depends on merely convincing producers to pay them, not on convincing retailers to stock. Whereas a distributor that gets a percentage of each sale has a vested interest in making sure your books are available in the most places to the most people.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

DanoJ said:


> Remember that BookBaby is a division of a much larger company (CDBaby and DiscMakers among their divisions) with a long company history and a reputation to uphold.


But therein lies the root of my problem. CDBaby charges $39 per album and takes a tiny hit on each sale. And for that, you get *BOTH * a hard CD and digital product. That is in line with similar services. I can wrap my head around that price structure. I can see where you have a physical product involved, there would be some additional set up and distribution considerations. If they were offering a book equivelent of the CD service, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. (I'd probably consider using their service, in fact).

But for ebooks, they charge $149 per book ($99 was a "special price). And there is no physical product, only the digital one. So for authors, they essentially more than triple the initial set up cost and offer less of a service. THAT makes the operation suspect to me. Kirkus had a long company history and reputation too, which they flushed down the toilet when they started to charge indies (and only indies) for reviews. Foreword Magazine had a reputation too, and then THEY flushed it down the toilet with their fee based reviews. Writer's Digest for decades had a reputation to looking out for writers, only to hop in bed over the last decade with several vanity presses and start their own scam contests for "self publishers." Plenty of companies with good reputations in their traditional industries have tried to use their reputations as shields versus unethical behavior when it comes to mooching money out of self-publishers. So their reputation producing CDs for independent musicians does not impress me. Their treatment of independent authors is my concern.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah...I get your point...but what surprises me is the angst. You don't have to like the pricing structure, or even think it's reasonable. But the idea that it's unscrupulous is what surprises me. Nobody on these forums (other than me, that I'm aware of) has actually dealt with Book Baby. How do they know what's really happening?


Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But therein lies the root of my problem. CDBaby charges $39 per album and takes a tiny hit on each sale. And for that, you get *BOTH * a hard CD and digital product. That is in line with similar services. I can wrap my head around that price structure. I can see where you have a physical product involved, there would be some additional set up and distribution considerations. If they were offering a book equivelent of the CD service, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. (I'd probably consider using their service, in fact).
> 
> But for ebooks, they charge $149 per book ($99 was a "special price). And there is no physical product, only the digital one. So for authors, they essentially more than triple the initial set up cost and offer less of a service. THAT makes the operation suspect to me. Kirkus had a long company history and reputation too, which they flushed down the toilet when they started to charge indies (and only indies) for reviews. Foreword Magazine had a reputation too, and then THEY flushed it down the toilet with their fee based reviews. Writer's Digest for decades had a reputation to looking out for writers, only to hop in bed over the last decade with several vanity presses and start their own scam contests for "self publishers." Plenty of companies with good reputations in their traditional industries have tried to use their reputations as shields versus unethical behavior when it comes to mooching money out of self-publishers. So their reputation producing CDs for independent musicians does not impress me. Their treatment of independent authors is my concern.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> Yeah...I get your point...but what surprises me is the angst. You don't have to like the pricing structure, or even think it's reasonable. But the idea that it's unscrupulous is what surprises me. Nobody on these forums (other than me, that I'm aware of) has actually dealt with Book Baby. How do they know what's really happening?


Someone is giving their opinion that the pricing structure based on the information provided by the company to perspective customers. People aren't pulling these number out of thin air. Julie and others have made observations and stated an opinion. No one has said BookBaby is a fraud, scam or whatever. In fact, throughout this thread several people have pointed out the upside to using BookBaby over Smashwords or doing it yourself. No one is basing BookBaby or being unfair. As a matter of fact, people asked if anyone had a sample of a BookBaby cover and to detail their experiences with the company.

You seem to want to think this thread is a witch hunt against BookBaby and that you're the lone defender of it and other full service companies. Has Julie said BookBaby is unscrupulous or guilty? She said "suspect". In this country, a suspect if innocent until proven guilty.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

I said,"I get your point," but, essentially, "what experience do [the opponents] have with the company?" Richard, I don't know what part of that you don't understand, but I think I was pretty clear in what I said.


kyrin said:


> Someone is giving their opinion that the pricing structure based on the information provided by the company to perspective customers. People aren't pulling these number out of thin air. Julie and others have made observations and stated an opinion. No one has said BookBaby is a fraud, scam or whatever. In fact, throughout this thread several people have pointed out the upside to using BookBaby over Smashwords or doing it yourself. No one is basing BookBaby or being unfair. As a matter of fact, people asked if anyone had a sample of a BookBaby cover and to detail their experiences with the company.
> 
> You seem to want to think this thread is a witch hunt against BookBaby and that you're the lone defender of it and other full service companies. Has Julie said BookBaby is unscrupulous or guilty? She said "suspect". In this country, a suspect if innocent until proven guilty.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> I said,"I get your point," but, essentially, "what experience do [the opponents] have with the company?" Richard, I don't know what part of that you don't understand, but I think I was pretty clear in what I said.


Yet after you say "you get someone's point", you bring up the same accusation that people are somehow being unfair or calling BookBaby unscrupulous when they aren't. You have even went so far as to attribute things to people that they didn't say and make the assertion that you are the only one standing up for BookBaby on the Forums after it was pointed out that you weren't.

That is my problem and what you don't seem to grasp.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Richard, there are a lot of people on the forums, here, that seem to dislike the idea or the business model of BookBaby, whether you agree with that or not. You have not only said you didn't trust them, but even reiterated it in more recent posts by saying you "stick by" your original thoughts. I never suggested I was the only person sticking up for them, but do my (apparently incompetent) self a favor, Richard...give me a freekin' list of BookBaby supporters.


kyrin said:


> Yet after you say "you get someone's point", you bring up the same accusation that people are somehow being unfair or calling BookBaby unscrupulous when they aren't. You have even went so far as to attribute things to people that they didn't say and make the assertion that you are the only one standing up for BookBaby on the Forums after it was pointed out that you weren't.
> 
> That is my problem and what you don't seem to grasp.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Try reading some of the earlier posts in this thread where people talked about the pros of going with BookBaby.

Maybe, if you actually read posts in the thread instead of making assumptions I wouldn't have to give one as learned as you a list.


EDIT: Oh and for laughs, try the original poster of this thread who even wrote a blog post stating BookBaby was a valuable new option for writers.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Are you f'ing kidding me, Richard?!? You earlier chastised me for reading and quoting earlier posts in this thread (including your own), and now, you're telling me to read them (as though I haven't). Yes, Keryl posted some positiove impressions about BookBaby (but never contracted with them). She, too, has been roundly criticized. The angst against BookBaby is so prevalent in this thread that it isn't even arguable. You have been one of the more vocal and vehement opponents. You need to back up and get out of this conversation--the gloves are off. You're a hypocrite..


kyrin said:


> Try reading some of the earlier posts in this thread where people talked about the pros of going with BookBaby.
> 
> Maybe, if you actually read posts in the thread instead of making assumptions I wouldn't have to give one as learned as you a list.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and for laughs, try the original poster of this thread who even wrote a blog post stating BookBaby was a valuable new option for writers.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> Are you f'ing kidding me, Richard?!? You earlier chastised me for reading and quoting earlier posts in this thread (including your own), and now, you're telling me to read them (as though I haven't). Yes, Keryl posted some positiove impressions about BookBaby (but never contracted with them). She, too, has been roundly criticized. The angst against BookBaby is so prevalent in this thread that it isn't even arguable. You have been one of the more vocal and vehement opponents. You need to back up and get out of this conversation--the gloves are off. You're a hypocrite..


Reading earlier posts in a thread helps you get the context and circumstances they were made in. Knowing the history and context of something is different from quoting the past. Also, you did ask for a list.

Another supporter besides BookBaby posters like Chris are Emma Midknight, Wuzupbury and some others who suggested they should be added to the author yellow pages. Hell, as one person said BookBaby comes across as very professional and I was thankful they stopped in here to address the concerns in this thread. I wish I could say the same about you.

I am not a vehement opponent. I stated concerns which were addressed as I keep telling you but you keep failing to grasp.

And if you want to resort to name calling, it's only going to get this thread locked when there is actually a lot of valuable information for those who might be interested in BookBaby, Smashwords or other service providers.

Thanks, o learned one for your wise words.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

The people you mentioned were folks that posted on this thread prior to my input. None (or almost none) have been positive since, Richard. Of the people you point to, only ONE was a self-described BookBaby customer...everyone else has an opinion, but, as I said, without experience actually dealing with BookBaby. You really have no dog in the fight, but you keep on. I don't get it.


kyrin said:


> Reading earlier posts in a thread helps you get the context and circumstances they were made in. Knowing the history and context of something is different from quoting the past. Also, you did ask for a list.
> 
> Another supporter besides BookBaby posters like Chris are Emma Midknight, Wuzupbury and some others who suggested they should be added to the author yellow pages. Hell, as one person said BookBaby comes across as very professional and I was thankful they stopped in here to address the concerns in this thread. I wish I could say the same about you.
> 
> ...


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

And the other thing, Richard, is that you can threaten me as often as you like (this is the second time you've threatened me with removal from the site), but it won't make you any more right. If I appear to be frightened by your blustery attitude...I'm not.


kyrin said:


> Reading earlier posts in a thread helps you get the context and circumstances they were made in. Knowing the history and context of something is different from quoting the past. Also, you did ask for a list.
> 
> Another supporter besides BookBaby posters like Chris are Emma Midknight, Wuzupbury and some others who suggested they should be added to the author yellow pages. Hell, as one person said BookBaby comes across as very professional and I was thankful they stopped in here to address the concerns in this thread. I wish I could say the same about you.
> 
> ...


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Dano, 

I read Richard's post several times and I don't see anything resembling a thread.

Fwiw, I think you've both stated your opinions repeatedly. Maybe it's time to just let it lie?


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> The people you mentioned were folks that posted on this thread prior to my input. None (or almost none) have been positive since, Richard. Of the people you point to, only ONE was a self-described BookBaby customer...everyone else has an opinion, but, as I said, without experience actually dealing with BookBaby. You really have no dog in the fight, but you keep on. I don't get it.


You asked for people who supported BookBaby, you did not specify with "after I joined the thread".

You keep saying I'm against BookBaby. I'm not. It's just a service that I won't be using at this time. That could change. In the future, I might want to use BookBaby or a service like it. That makes it in my best interests to follow threads like this and keep abreast of things.

It's not about having a dog in the fight. You don't need a horse in a race to bet for or against it or to have an opinion about that horse's performance. I stated an opinion earlier in the thread which every one has a right to do whether they're a customer or not.

It would be nice to hear from more customers of BookBaby or see a sample of a cover from one of their customers. Even after that is provided, it's still a matter of opinion.

You seem to read a lot into my posts that aren't there. I didn't make a threat. It's against forum rules to name call. Every thread that degenerates into that gets locked. I stated a well known fact.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

NadiaLee said:


> Why anybody wants to use Bookbaby or Smashwords for Kindle / BN uploads is beyond me.
> 
> Getting direct deposits from multiple vendors won't kill you. And it's not that complicated to fill out direct deposit forms and get the money deposited. If you ever had a job that did direct deposit, you know how to do it. Heck, if you ever got your tax refund deposited directly to your bank account, you know how to fill out a simple form. Don't say you can't do it and let somebody take your money.


A. Living outside the USA (Amazon will take us international authors, now, but they still send out cheques. That's minimum 4 weeks between depositing the cheque and getting the money)

B. Pricing one's books under $2.99 (Smashwords gets the author 60% of the sale price from B&N, vs going direct which gets 40% at that price point - if they ever close deal with Amazon, it'll be 42.5%, I think, vs 35%)


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

And calling you hypocritical is not "name-calling"...it's a statement of fact. Your posts all disagree with one another, as I've said before. Your earlier post to me (in addition to the private message you sent to me) contain the warning that I will be removed from the forum for my language--as though I am being somehow uncivil, here. You push the envelope with every post toward me, Richard, especially when you continually contradict even your own past posts. I think you should simply ignore what I post if everything I say causes you such turmoil.


kyrin said:


> You asked for people who supported BookBaby, you did not specify with "after I joined the thread".
> 
> You keep saying I'm against BookBaby. I'm not. It's just a service that I won't be using at this time. That could change. In the future, I might want to use BookBaby or a service like it. That makes it in my best interests to follow threads like this and keep abreast of things.
> 
> ...


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

DanoJ said:


> Are you f'ing kidding me, Richard?!? You earlier chastised me for reading and quoting earlier posts in this thread (including your own), and now, you're telling me to read them (as though I haven't). Yes, Keryl posted some positiove impressions about BookBaby (but never contracted with them). She, too, has been roundly criticized. The angst against BookBaby is so prevalent in this thread that it isn't even arguable. You have been one of the more vocal and vehement opponents. You need to back up and get out of this conversation--the gloves are off. You're a hypocrite..


Um, look at the last sentence in your post.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Monique, it's here as well as in a private message. Here, he said "if you want to resort to name calling, it's only going to get this thread locked," and, in private, he said I could be removed from the forum for similar posts. You're correct, we've stated our opinions several times. What I can't understand is the continued persecution of my point of view by Richard, and, apparently, only Richard. He seems unable to let anything I post in response to anyone alone (look back at my posts, if you disagree)...I am not talking to him when I answer someone else's post.


Monique said:


> Dano,
> 
> I read Richard's post several times and I don't see anything resembling a thread.
> 
> Fwiw, I think you've both stated your opinions repeatedly. Maybe it's time to just let it lie?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Dano,

That isn't a threat; it's a reminder of board policy. Even without "name calling" when things get too snarky, too personal or just plain not productive, threads are locked. Locking a thread is something done strictly at the moderators' discretion and will not result in any punishment to you or any other poster.


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## DanoJ (Apr 29, 2011)

Okay...thanks. The statements come off as threats. More so in the private message, I thought. Either way, I don't think my rather animated discussions with Richard (which I would prefer not having) can possibly amount to prohibited behavior on the forum. As I have pointed out, I don't know why he feels the need to keep engaging me in arguments when I'm not addressing him at all. It is quite clear that we disagree, not just on the issue of the thread, but even on his own history of comments about it. Thanks for your input...I agree it should somehow just end.


Monique said:


> Dano,
> 
> That isn't a threat; it's a reminder of board policy. Even without "name calling" when things get too snarky, too personal or just plain not productive, threads are locked. Locking a thread is something done strictly at the moderators' discretion and will not result in any punishment to you or any other poster.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

For the record, I'm not in the business of persecuting people. At no point have I stated anyone's opinion is not valid or that they were not entitled to it. I also never said someone should change their opinion to fit my view.

I sent a private message because i didn't think it would be right or fair to get a thread locked that had valuable information in it because things can get out of hand. I did it clarify a possible misunderstanding about something I said that was taken in a way that I didn't mean or intend. If at anytime some thinks a person is out of line or threatening them (publicly or privately), then they should contact a moderator.

Recently, the only thing I have been stating and arguing is about my right to change my opinion. Yesterday, I might have an opinion that XYZ might warrant concern. Today, I might have the opinion that XYZ is not a good fit for me but it could work for others. Tomorrow, if something changes or I have new information, my opinion on XYZ might change. That's it. That's not being a hypocrite, an insult that warrants an apology. That's being flexible and willing to change.

I'm going to leave it at that.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't get the angst.

DanoJ -- People don't have to fork over the $ and use the service in order to know that it's not right for them or that they have concerns / issues w/ the way the service is sold, etc.  I'm not sure why you're getting all worked up about it, when you said you didn't have a great time dealing with them either.

Nobody is attacking you for having used Bookbaby.


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