# Trying to write romance, but I hate the genre



## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

I look at Amazon's bestseller list, and it makes me wish I could write romance novels. Romance novels are huge. For a while, I was seriously trying to write a romance novel. I even wrote an outline and a few chapters. But there's just one problem: I hate romance novels. I don't even like romantic movies. I just don't get it. Every word I wrote, I kept thinking, "Is this romantic? What's a romantic thing for this guy to say? If I have him say this, is that a turn off? Would this make the heroine unlikable?" Eventually I decided that it was pointless to try. My genre is adventure and scifi, and I could imagine what kind of novel someone who hated scifi would produce: crap. But I still wish I could get some of that romance pie.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

As you said, somebody who felt this way about adventure/scifi would produce something that...well, you would be able to tell that it is not something the author likes. I think if you forced yourself to write a romance, readers would know you did not enjoy writing it, and romance readers especially are a fickle lot. (I would know, ha!)

If it makes you feel better, I write romances but they do not sell considerably well. Well enough to brag a little about to family, but not enough to pay many bills on. It's a genre that takes a while to get your hold in anyway. Probably true for most genres, but I find it especially true for things like romance. 

I often wish I were a YA (or NA now) writer. I see all these other writer friends of mine having huge successes with just ONE title, and everyone else bites at the chomp to help them promote everywhere. Me? I have zero interest in those genres (if you want to call them that.) Not interested in reading them, not interested in writing them. I like my characters 40 and cynical. But sometimes I joke with my editor I should write one anyway for "quick cash", even though we all know that's not how it works.

There is a very dedicated audience for your genre(s) out there. If you dedicate yourself in turn, you will amass loyal readers who will boost your career down the line.


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

If there is no joy in the writing, it will show in the writing.  Do something you enjoy.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I agree with the others. There's no point in writing something you loathe. Not only is it difficult and unpleasant work, but your dislike for the genre will tend to shine through. Best to stick with what you love, I think.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Hildred said:


> I often wish I were a YA (or NA now) writer. I see all these other writer friends of mine having huge successes with just ONE title, and everyone else bites at the chomp to help them promote everywhere. Me? I have zero interest in those genres (if you want to call them that.) Not interested in reading them, not interested in writing them. I like my characters 40 and cynical. But sometimes I joke with my editor I should write one anyway for "quick cash", even though we all know that's not how it works.


I wondered if anyone else had that experience of wanting to write in a different genre. Glad I'm not alone


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

That's what would happen to me if I tried to write scifi, or most other genres for that matter. I write romance because it's what I know and love. I've read thousands of these books over the years and it's helped me to understand the genre so I can produce the best quality product for my readers. Trying to cash in on what's hot never works. My advice? Stick to what you know and love. The proof will be in your writing.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Don't write for the money. Write because you enjoy writing.
I've begun writing outside my primary genre to challenge myself and see if it's something I would enjoy. So far, I've delved into the romance genre, and it's not too shabby. If anything, it's taught me new writing tips and techniques that other genres don't teach you. I'm all about learning new things and I like to keep my mind open to new challenges.
My romantic short story isn't a best-seller, and I doubt it will ever be compared to books of the more established romance authors, but it was fun to write, regardless, I'm able to publish it and share it with the world, and that's all that matters to me.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

This sort of thing kills me.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

I've never had much interest in romance until I stumbled upon a writer I'm now friends with. Her m/m romance books is what got me trying out not just reading but also writing the genre last year. I still don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I like to try and play with the conventions.
Right now I'm working on a urban fantasy romance trilogy.

I've never had much interest in straight romance because I haven't found one where I can identify with the heroine and it makes my skin crawl thinking about most of the blurbs I've read for straight romance.

Don't try something you don't like, maybe try something closer to home? There are a lot of cross genre books that are great and have a good following.
I used to write sci-fi and even have some fantasy book outlines. Though my main genre these days in gay fiction (cross genre to urban fantasy or slice of life most of the time).

But I think it's great that you tried it, trying something new can be quite rewarding, but not all the time


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Don't write for the money. Write because you enjoy writing.


Yes and no. If you have no interest in money at all, you might as well just give your books away. I write for the joy of writing, but I also want to make a career out of it, which means trying to maximize my earnings. But writing stuff you don't really have a feel for is not the best way to do that.



> I've never had much interest in straight romance because I haven't found one where I can identify with the heroine and it makes my skin crawl thinking about most of the blurbs I've read for straight romance.


I'm not exactly sure what it is that makes your skin crawl about the blurbs you've read, but romance is a huge genre, and there are all sorts of different straight romances out there. Could be you just haven't found a subgenre that suits you yet.


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

I think you should open yourself up a little bit and gradually push your boundaries.  Ok so you can't write a gushy HEA romance novel.  what about a sci/adventure novel with romantic elements?  What about love stories without HEA or without the gushy loveliness?  Most of Hemmingway's novel revolved  around love and its foibles.  Even Fitzgerald, (his female characters suck), his novels all centered around romantic love. take Nicholas Sparks, his career is built around love stories with sad endings. kindleboards George Berger wrote his non-raunchy lesbian YA romance. 

I guess my point is you should find where the boundary of your like and dislike is and push further a little. Not too much.  Go hunt down male writers of romance(there are more of them than you think) and see if you look like their stuff.  Go read contemporary fiction by male writers that center about love and stuff and see what you like. You like scifi and adventure.  There's a healthy market for scifi/adventure stuff with a splash of romance in it.  It's really just a matter of being willing to play and experiment a little.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> I'm not exactly sure what it is that makes your skin crawl about the blurbs you've read, but romance is a huge genre, and there are all sorts of different straight romances out there. Could be you just haven't found a subgenre that suits you yet.


I don't like innocent girls, quiet girls, "cute" girls, girls who fall in love at first sight, and the list goes on. I'm pretty picky when it comes to what I like, there are very few books with female protags at all that that I liked, and I've read a LOT of them in different genres.
There are so many other books out there that do have my interest that I can't find the will to actually make time to find a sub-genre of a genre that over all doesn't speak to me. Straight romance simply doesn't seem to be my thing.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

RM Prioleau said:


> I've begun writing outside my primary genre to challenge myself and see if it's something I would enjoy. So far, I've delved into the romance genre, and it's not too shabby. If anything, it's taught me new writing tips and techniques that other genres don't teach you. I'm all about learning new things and I like to keep my mind open to new challenges.


I have to say I learned a lot trying to write romance. I used to think romance was easy: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl. But in reading up on romance, and trying to form a plot, I realized it's not that simple. It's hard coming up with reasons why they don't just get together, and are kept apart for a novel-length story. Best advice I read was to figure out why falling in love is the worst thing that could happen to the hero/heroine right now, and build the story around that.

I've also never been interested in the emotional lives of my characters, but I discovered romance is all about emotions. It forced me to try to delve deeper into the character's minds and hearts to find a story, which I think is useful. In my future work, I'll probably put in a romantic subplot, because I think it will add depth to the story. But I don't think I'll ever write an entire story about romance.

I have a lot more respect for romance authors than I did before.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> Yes and no. If you have no interest in money at all, you might as well just give your books away. I write for the joy of writing, but I also want to make a career out of it, which means trying to maximize my earnings. But writing stuff you don't really have a feel for is not the best way to do that.


Of course, if you plan to make a career out of it, then yes, you'd have to treat your writing like a business and therefore find the most profitable methods of turning your writing into revenue. I agree you shouldn't write something you hate just because it makes the most money. But what if the genre you like is the least-popular/least-selling genre? Publishers would most likely not accept your manuscript no matter how good it is because it's not the 'hot trend'. And if they DO take it, they might sit on it for x years to see if the 'hot trend' will shift in the direction of your manuscript.

And I think it would be that much harder for a self-publisher to try and sell something in a least-popular genre if they're looking to make a career out of this. Not saying it's impossible, but definitely difficult.

I certainly don't oppose to making revenue off my writing. I mean, I AM selling it. But I'm not doing it with the intent to get rich quick or something. If anything, it's providing me gas money to and from my full-time job


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> But I'm not doing it with the intent to get rich quick or something.


Well, I am! I've been trying to get rich quick... for fifteen years.

Just kidding. I'm just saying, money does enter into it for a lot of us, if not most of us. But there are no guarantees of ever making much money in this business, so it's best to have fun along the way.



> Straight romance simply doesn't seem to be my thing.


Fair enough. Different people like different genres.



> And I think it would be that much harder for a self-publisher to try and sell something in a least-popular genre if they're looking to make a career out of this. Not saying it's impossible, but definitely difficult.


Agreed. But you never know what the next big thing might be. It could be that less popular genre.



> I used to think romance was easy: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.


A lot of people think that. Romance writers get no respect.  It's great that you learned from the experience, though. I think trying new things is very rarely a waste of time, because the more we write, the more we learn.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

Italiahaircolor said:


> This sort of thing kills me.


Is it the implication that it takes no skill or effort to write a romance, and therefore it should be easy money? Or perhaps the notion that a person who dislikes a genre has so little respect for the writers who work in it that he thinks it should be a cakewalk to do and let the money roll in?

Because, yeah, this sort of thing kills me, too. I put this just below the "Yeah, I could write a novel if I had the time" comments.

Make my skin crawl...


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Is it the implication that it takes no skill or effort to write a romance, and therefore it should be easy money? Or perhaps the notion that a person who dislikes a genre has so little respect for the writers who work in it that he thinks it should be a cakewalk to do and let the money roll in?


Well, to be fair to the OP, he apparently started with that assumption, but learned he was wrong. Kudos to him for that, at least.


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## olefish (Jan 24, 2012)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I've also never been interested in the emotional lives of my characters, but I discovered romance is all about emotions. It forced me to try to delve deeper into the character's minds and hearts to find a story, which I think is useful. In my future work, I'll probably put in a romantic subplot, because I think it will add depth to the story. But I don't think I'll ever write an entire story about romance.


I'm glad you're thinking about the emotional lives of your characters(emotions don't have to mean love or romance). Books filled with flat characters or unemotional characters don't do well in any genre. Internal conflict mixed with external conflict is a winning combination across genres.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm not usually a big fan of romance either, so I wrote paranormal romance. It means I get to have were-tigers brawling and


Spoiler



getting shot


, with prophecies and whatever.

It all turned out okay, but I'd seriously struggle to write a book I wasn't enjoying.


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## leeannwriter (Apr 26, 2011)

If you hate romance, how can you expect to engage a reader? No amount of skill can disguise the author's disdain and dislike.  It will come through.  And to write any genre, it's vital to have a passion for that genre, one which can infuse the work.  I would suggest writing in a genre you enjoy.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Is it the implication that it takes no skill or effort to write a romance, and therefore it should be easy money? Or perhaps the notion that a person who dislikes a genre has so little respect for the writers who work in it that he thinks it should be a cakewalk to do and let the money roll in?
> 
> Because, yeah, this sort of thing kills me, too. I put this just below the "Yeah, I could write a novel if I had the time" comments.
> 
> Make my skin crawl...


It's both, really. Thanks Julie for summing it up.

When I read the opening of this thread I wondered where the integrity was? Where the respect for one's readers went? Are we so desperate to get rich that we'll shrug off the _art_ in pursuit of the _dollar_?

Romance is a HUGE genre because there was a stage set by authors who LOVE the genre and good storytelling -- not just because they could throw stuff against the wall and make it stick. There is a recipe, sure ... but there is also natural talent and unique voices.

I _respect_ romance novelists because I could never write a love story like that. Do I know there is money on the table if I could? Yes. But does that mean I should try? Nope.

In case anyone wonders what I think will kill publishing in the future ... it's exactly this sort of mentality.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

To speak more broadly, threads like this remind me of the enormous disconnect we see in the indie community between the technological ability to publish and actual LOVE OF THE CRAFT. There is this "gold rush" mentality at play that troubles me. Not just in threads like this where people want to jump on the hot genres to make a quick buck. But an overall notion that the craft itself is secondary to profit. Don't misunderstand. I don't suffer from starving-artist-angst. I'm all about making a profit on my work. But damnit all, I LOVE THE CRAFT. And as someone who has spend all of her adult life and most of her teen years working her ass off to improve her craft, I am floored at the mentality I see sometimes.

Someone else mentioned elsewhere that they are amazed at the number of threads in this forum about Amazon algorithms and book covers and pricing, but the lack of threads on actual craft. But that doesn't surprise me at all. There is very little interest in the craft. It seems like everyone apparently already knows everything there is to know, and all they need is light editing and a proofreader. _Now how to I get into the top 100 of my genre?_

Ironically, the original dream of self-publishing was to free the writer from the constraints of a profit-driven book publishing industry. Indie publishing paved the way for niche authors or experimental writers to find their audience without having to be restricted to what would be a bestseller. And yet here we are, even more cynical that the worst money-grubbing publishers in the Big Six, showing no concern for the reader and just thinking about what will sell and how to profit from it.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Is it the implication that it takes no skill or effort to write a romance, and therefore it should be easy money? Or perhaps the notion that a person who dislikes a genre has so little respect for the writers who work in it that he thinks it should be a cakewalk to do and let the money roll in?


No, that's not what I implied. That's exactly how I felt. But I learned I was wrong. See above


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> To speak more broadly, threads like this remind me of the enormous disconnect we see in the indie community between the technological ability to publish and actual LOVE OF THE CRAFT. There is this "gold rush" mentality at play that troubles me. Not just in threads like this where people want to jump on the hot genres to make a quick buck. But an overall notion that the craft itself is secondary to profit. Don't misunderstand. I don't suffer from starving-artist-angst. I'm all about making a profit on my work. But damnit all, I LOVE THE CRAFT. And as someone who has spend all of her adult life and most of her teen years working her *ss off to improve her craft, I am floored at the mentality I see sometimes.
> 
> Someone else mentioned elsewhere that they are amazed at the number of threads in this forum about Amazon algorithms and book covers and pricing, but the lack of threads on actual craft. But that doesn't surprise me at all. There is very little interest in the craft. It seems like everyone apparently already knows everything there is to know, and all they need is light editing and a proofreader. _Now how to I get into the top 100 of my genre?_
> 
> Ironically, the original dream of self-publishing was to free the writer from the constraints of a profit-driven book publishing industry. Indie publishing paved the way for niche authors or experimental writers to find their audience without having to be restricted to what would be a bestseller. And yet here we are, even more cynical that the worst money-grubbing publishers in the Big Six, showing no concern for the reader and just thinking about what will sell and how to profit from it.


I think that is because we have a lot of authors here on this forum who are making an actual living off their writing and are asking others for advice on how to increase their revenue. Many of these same authors also love the craft, but feeding their families and keeping the lights on is first-priority, which is understandable.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

The thing about something being popular is that you've got exponential amounts of competition. So, lots of people like romance, but there are lots of romance books.

I don't write straight romance because I can't be bothered to follow the rules, but all of my books have strong romantic elements. Occasionally, I do try to shoehorn my stuff into the romance formula (but like you said, it always gets so annoying keeping them apart for so long. My plots generally work more like, "They fell in love. And then things got worse.") but thus far my efforts to do so haven't sold too well.

I've taken this to be confirmation from the universe that I should write what I want and not worry about being popular, since I'm apparently no good at it. 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Someone else mentioned elsewhere that they are amazed at the number of threads in this forum about Amazon algorithms and book covers and pricing, but the lack of threads on actual craft. But that doesn't surprise me at all. There is very little interest in the craft. It seems like everyone apparently already knows everything there is to know, and all they need is light editing and a proofreader. _Now how to I get into the top 100 of my genre?_


Actually, I think that this is because a lot of writers are magic-driven writers. (Although I'm sure being driven to make cash is in there too. Heck, I study craft to make cash.) If writing is a magic trick, they want to be able to pull it off without learning the "trick" part, because that would destroy the magic. They write by feel. Nothing wrong with this, of course. Stephen King is a magic-driven writer. Dude doesn't have a clue how he does what he does. It's magic. Of course, he writes terrible endings, but we forgive him that because he starts and middles so well. I, however, like to look behind the curtain and inside the magician's sleeves. Not everyone does.

And, of course, I have to admit there is something magical about stories sometimes anyway. Sometimes they capture me for no discernible reason. I've spent five years of my life trying to figure out why on earth I could. not. put. down. the _Twilight_ series when it did _nothing_ right in terms of story craft.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> To speak more broadly, threads like this remind me of the enormous disconnect we see in the indie community between the technological ability to publish and actual LOVE OF THE CRAFT.


In fairness, there is a time-honored tradition among writers to use their skill (once their craft is honed) to make money writing whatever they could sell. I believe this was especially prevalent among the mid-listers who made a living by using more pen names than they could count, across multiple genres.

You're right about the craft threads, though. Personally, I don't talk about it here much but I'm constantly working on my craft. I still take writing courses constantly; I have another one coming up starting at the beginning of February. I keep re-reading Stephen King's On Writing, adding other stuff to the pile (I swear I'm going to get around to Secret Window and David Morrell's The Successful Novelist in the next couple months) and try to keep up with craft blogs here and there. But you're right, it's rarely something that bleeds over onto KB. Maybe we oughta work on that, but I suspect - and this is just a suspicion - that talking craft is ground that we fear to tread. I don't talk about it because I feel like I'm still a student in training, like I've got nothing figured out. I can't imagine what the newest people feel like. Just my suspicion.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I wondered if anyone else had that experience of wanting to write in a different genre.


I'm kind of slowly working my way through genres, partly to challenge myself and partly because it's fun to write something that's completely different. (Fun, but rather questionable from a marketing perspective.) I have no interest in doing hard SF, a traditional western, anything with a werewolf or vampire, or an epic fantasy, but other than that, I'm game.

I'm actually starting to run out of living genres to dabble in, at this point, and may have to start resurrecting dead ones, like the air-race genre that was popular, very briefly, in the 1920s. Have you ever read one? Neither have I, though I own a couple. (I own a couple of _everything_, I think, at this point.) There's probably some small community of people who still read and enjoy the things, and would buy mine if I wrote one. But I wouldn't write one without having ever read any, as that would be inane, and a grossly disrespectful injustice to all three dozen of those readers, and stupid, and I try not to do stupid things.

You say you hate romance novels, but what kind of romances have you actually *read*? Horrible 1980s bodice-rippers? There's far more to romance than creaking corsets and fainting couches. Try tracking down some gothic romances from the '60s and '70s, like a couple of Victoria Holt novels. (I'm reading one right now, _The Shadow of the Lynx_. It's a great romance for people who don't like romances - headstrong teenage British girl whose father died in Australia seeking his fortune in the gold mines is left in the questionable guardianship of one of her father's business associates there, a powerful, handsome widower with a charming son only a few years older than her. Will she fall in love as she settles into life down under? And if so, with whom? It's all in the first person, and the protagonist is wonderfully emotional and introspective. Quite fun.) Some of the romantic tropes are a bit discredited/outdated, but the better ones are pretty painless gateways to romanceland. (The bad ones tend to be rather genteel thrillers with about three pages of romance tacked on at the end. "Oh dear, a bunch of random people have died in various gruesome ways, and Milord So-and-so has suddenly realized he's madly in love with me. Shall I say yes now, or wait until morning? Hmm, decisions, decisions." But they're the exception, rather than the rule.)

Like police procedurals? _Gun Shy_ by Lori Lake is a classic contemporary F/F romance that's 75% about the protagonist going through the academy and becoming a police officer, 20% about the protagonist becoming friends with, and wanting to become more than friends with, her training officer, and 5% about bodybuilding. It's one of the more enjoyable books I read when preparing to write a romance novel of my own.

Or there's a whole wide world on paranormal romances, a/k/a PNRs. The whole "Undead" series by Maryjanice Davidson is hilariously awesome. Seriously. You won't even care that you're reading a romance. Her Fred the Mermaid books are made of win, too. The demon series by Julie Kenner is another one you wouldn't immediately realize is a romance.

Or if you don't even want to dabble in anything-romances yet, read some romantic comedies, or a fantasy with a romantic subplot. Hell, read some romance manga. There are piles of the things full of painfully tsundere characters whose every other word and action belie the romantic feelings they try and fail to deny they hold. It's F/F again, but Morinaga Milk's _Girlfriends_ is two volumes and something like 1200 pages (!) of bittersweet romantic awesomeness that'll teach you more about romance tropes than probably any two other books put together. _School Rumble_ is a hilarious romcom series that'll teach you ridiculous amounts about romance stories, as well.

Like fantasy? Read _Freedom and Necessity_ by Brust and Bull. It's an awesome epistolary historical fantasy with a strong romantic subplot, and contains what might very well be the. most. awesome. love. letter. ever. written. Like, seriously, I think even Hells Angels members would shed a tear or two, it's so awesome. If you read Caroline Stevermeyer's _A College of Magic_ - which contains no real romance, and is a wonderful fantasy novel in its own right - you'll better enjoy the sequel, _A Scholar of Magics_, which includes a well-done, and instructive, romantic subplot.

And, yeah, writing a romance well is _hard_. It requires a good degree of knowledge and effort. But the same is true of mysteries, thrillers, fantasies, SF... everything except the worst sorts of navel-gazing literary fiction, I suppose. But, yeah, like others said, write one because you enjoy the genre, the tropes and conventions, the challenge of putting your own stamp on something that's been done a million times before, not because you think it'll make you some quick money. (My F/F romance novel is my second-best-selling book, of fifteen. My best-selling book is a literary novella about a goat, in which nothing happens, and has outsold the romance something like 20:1. I admit I don't market them (I don't really market _anything_), but my erotica titles, under a pen name, have sold less than a dozen copies, and the way some people talk about it, writing erotica is like owning a machine that prints money. (I wrote erotica not to get rich quick, but as a way of flexing my writing muscles, so to speak. One is a hardcore erotic novella that contains _no dirty words_ and no weird euphemisms, that I wrote pretty much just to demonstrate I could. And I have a free erotic title that I wrote pretty much just to screw with readers' heads. Oooh, hot. Wait, not hot. Heh, okay, now that's hilarious. Oooh, that's *really* hot. Wait, *so* not hot. Twenty pages of emotional and hormonal whiplash and a bunch of really awful jokes later, it ends in a mixture of awkwardness and confusion and dampness, like so many trysts.  That some people have apparently honestly enjoyed that worries me, sometimes.))


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> To speak more broadly, threads like this remind me of the enormous disconnect we see in the indie community between the technological ability to publish and actual LOVE OF THE CRAFT. There is this "gold rush" mentality at play that troubles me. Not just in threads like this where people want to jump on the hot genres to make a quick buck. But an overall notion that the craft itself is secondary to profit. Don't misunderstand. I don't suffer from starving-artist-angst. I'm all about making a profit on my work. But damnit all, I LOVE THE CRAFT. And as someone who has spend all of her adult life and most of her teen years working her *ss off to improve her craft, I am floored at the mentality I see sometimes.
> 
> Someone else mentioned elsewhere that they are amazed at the number of threads in this forum about Amazon algorithms and book covers and pricing, but the lack of threads on actual craft. But that doesn't surprise me at all. There is very little interest in the craft. It seems like everyone apparently already knows everything there is to know, and all they need is light editing and a proofreader. _Now how to I get into the top 100 of my genre?_
> 
> Ironically, the original dream of self-publishing was to free the writer from the constraints of a profit-driven book publishing industry. Indie publishing paved the way for niche authors or experimental writers to find their audience without having to be restricted to what would be a bestseller. And yet here we are, even more cynical that the worst money-grubbing publishers in the Big Six, showing no concern for the reader and just thinking about what will sell and how to profit from it.


Hmm, this is why I was hesitant to put this experience in here. I thought maybe other writers would get where I was coming from, and understand why I did what I did, and what I learned from it. Perhaps if I had more of my books in my sig or posted here more, there would be a context. So let me see if I can help.

I love my craft. I've been writing for over twenty years. I've written literally thousands of short stories and hundreds of novels. I have an entire bookshelf on writing novels, short stories, fiction in general. If you click on my sig and read the sample, I think you'll find a story that I take pride in. If I felt comfortable giving out my pseudonym, you'd find a half-dozen more books I'm proud of. I'm writing two more novels right now, and editing three more to publish under my real name. I'm not someone who just decided to start writing to make money.

However, I decided to see if I could write romance. It was a mistake and I failed, and feel I learned a lot in the process. I don't see that as a bad thing. I know it offends people to say I hate romance, but I'll bet everyone has a genre they hate-erotica, scifi, western, action, you name it. The point of my thread was to reflect on the pressures in the industry right now that have and always will exist. Lots of writers try to write outside their genre, some at the encouragement of their editors. So it's not evil.

Kind of wish I'd kept this to myself now


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

I thought I was going to be annoyed by this post, assuming it was going to be just another "romance must be the easiest genre in the world to write" threads, but I'm actually not. I'm happy to see that the OP not only realized he was wrong, but that he came to the conclusion that it's important to write in a genre that not only do you read, but that you enjoy. If you don't enjoy what you're writing, then your readers will be able to tell.



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Someone else mentioned elsewhere that they are amazed at the number of threads in this forum about Amazon algorithms and book covers and pricing, but the lack of threads on actual craft.


I can't speak for everyone here, but I already have forums that I go to for craft discussion. I also attend countless workshops throughout the year, and have done so for years now.

I joined Kindleboards not for craft discussion, but for the discussions of the business and technical side of self-publishing (primarily on Kindle, but also on the other platforms). When I have craft questions or brainstorming, I take those to my other forums, because not only are those forums more genre-specific, but because that's where my comfort level is. (Those other forums are password-protected while this one is free and open). Plus that's just how I've been doing it for years now. Self-publishing is new to me, thus my participation on a new-to-me forum almost solely on that topic.


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## Jonathan C. Gillespie (Aug 9, 2012)

Yep. I've quite a few sales and the feedback from my readers is terrific, so I know I'm on-track with the craft side of things. But this paradigm shift in publishing is also brand new, and the main reason I come here is to learn from people making it work for them.

This isn't my first stop for discussion on plot holes, passive voice and POV shifts.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> Hmm, this is why I was hesitant to put this experience in here. I thought maybe other writers would get where I was coming from, and understand why I did what I did, and what I learned from it. Perhaps if I had more of my books in my sig or posted here more, there would be a context. So let me see if I can help.
> 
> I love my craft. I've been writing for over twenty years. I've written literally thousands of short stories and hundreds of novels. I have an entire bookshelf on writing novels, short stories, fiction in general. If you click on my sig and read the sample, I think you'll find a story that I take pride in. If I felt comfortable giving out my pseudonym, you'd find a half-dozen more books I'm proud of. I'm writing two more novels right now, and editing three more to publish under my real name. I'm not someone who just decided to start writing to make money.
> 
> ...


Not to worry, Nigel. I read through all your posts and understood where you were coming from. It doesn't offend me that you hate romance or that you even tried to write it. As writers, we are all curious and want to experiment. You don't know how many times I tried writing a historical (one of my favorite genres) and totally failed .

We all want a piece of pie somewhere some time . Or bacon.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

RobertJCrane said:


> Maybe we oughta work on that, but I suspect - and this is just a suspicion - that talking craft is ground that we fear to tread. I don't talk about it because I feel like I'm still a student in training, like I've got nothing figured out. I can't imagine what the newest people feel like. Just my suspicion.


I still work at it, too. I read. I attend seminars. I stalk people at conventions to pick their brains.  But there is something other than fear I sense. It's weird. But it is almost as if attempts to discuss craft get shot down. I stopped participating in a lot of the "why is this book not selling" threads because the very concept that the book was not ready for publication is forbidden from discussion. There are so many books that just are...not...ready. But mentioning fundamentals of writing is considered insulting, elitist, mean, or fill-in-the-blank with whatever you want. Unless your advice consists of

a. change your cover
b. change your genre
c. Use Select

Your advice is not welcome. That is the general feeling I get sometimes. Offering feedback on actual CRAFT issues like plot, character development, pacing, dialogue, setting...off limits.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm a firm believer in One for the money; one for the love


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> There are so many books that just are...not...ready.


I agree, but I don't think this sort of discussion fits well with KB's style. If I ask why my book isn't selling, and you point out my numerous grammatical errors and my inability to use commas correctly, then I will probably get angry and defensive, even if you're polite about it. Then the thread will rapidly degenerate, at which point the mods will step in and lock the thread. Everyone knows this is what's going to happen in such a discussion, so people avoid starting them.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> However, I decided to see if I could write romance. It was a mistake and I failed, and feel I learned a lot in the process. I don't see that as a bad thing. I know it offends people to say I hate romance, but I'll bet everyone has a genre they hate-erotica, scifi, western, action, you name it.


My issue is not that you wanted to experiment with something outside your genre. I'm all about experimentation and trying new things. I think breaking out of your comfort zone is essential for development. What bothered me is that you say you hate the genre, but decided to write it anyway. I'm not a romance writer. I don't like romance novels. But I would NEVER think to try to write a romance just to "grab a piece of the pie." I have too much respect for romance writers to do that. Sure, I might poke at them once in a while because of their nekkid covers  , but the idea of saying "Hey, I hate this genre but let's see if I can make money off of it" bothers me. It isn't you per se. It's something I see over and over and over.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But mentioning fundamentals of writing is considered insulting, elitist, mean, or fill-in-the-blank with whatever you want. Unless your advice consists of
> 
> a. change your cover
> b. change your genre
> ...


Most people in the NaNoWriMo forums ask craft-related questions more than they do publishing, making money, etc., because I believe there are a lot more young people and people who are new/unknowing of publishing who participate in that. But here on Kindleboards, I think since we have a lot more adult and business-minded people who are in the craft of writing, and so we tend to see more questions in business and money-related subjects.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> Most people in the NaNoWriMo forums ask craft-related questions more than they do publishing, making money, etc., because I believe there are a lot more young people and people who are new/unknowing of publishing who participate in that. But here on Kindleboards, I think since we have a lot more adult and business-minded people who are in the craft of writing, and so we tend to see more questions in business and money-related subjects.


I really think it comes down to a time and place for things. I joined this forum because I'd heard it was THE place to learn about the business side of self-publishing. I suspect many others did as well. We already have our craft forums, so we don't take that here because that's not what we're here for.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Jonathan C. Gillespie said:


> This isn't my first stop for discussion on plot holes, passive voice and POV shifts.


What you said. I also don't enjoy talking craft outside of workshops that I specifically pick and choose. I mostly avoid those threads because they usually evolve into "My way is the right way" and this kind of advice freezes me up as a writer. Not saying that they aren't useful--many writers find craft threads wonderful and love to discuss every aspect about the art. Not for me, that's all. I do read about craft and enjoy the occasional one-on-one with my few trusted writing friends on our writing. Also, if you'd been on writing forums since the 90s, you'd probably read many, many similar threads.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But there is something other than fear I sense. It's weird. But it is almost as if attempts to discuss craft get shot down. I stopped participating in a lot of the "why is this book not selling" threads because the very concept that the book was not ready for publication is forbidden from discussion.


I think, in a nutshell, it's that we're not all jerks, and that many of us are cynical enough to know that telling people who somehow didn't realize their already-published book is riddled with grammatical errors isn't going to do any real good.

That, and among the groupthink's problems is this weird belief that even the steamiest pile of camel dung will sell if you just give it a predictable enough cover and blurb. Who needs craft when you can have a $200 cover that looks exactly like all the other covers in the world, and a completely unoriginal blurb written by a committee?


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

I thought about writing a contemporary new adult romance, since they frequently hit the top 100 and many of my YA paranormal peers of 2011 are doing it. (I already write romance hybrids, so that's not the problem for me; it's the contemp part. Anyway...)

But here's the thing--if you do a one-off book, and you're successful? You have to keep doing it, or else the audience you've gained from that experience is totally useless. If you're disdainful toward the genre, you're reeeaally going to have a slog. Way to make the funnest job in the world suck. 

As others have said, write what you love. If YOU can get excited about it, others will, too. You can find success in any genre.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> Kind of wish I'd kept this to myself now


You're a quick study!


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

George Berger said:


> That, and among the groupthink's problems is this weird belief that even the steamiest pile of camel dung will sell if you just give it a predictable enough cover and blurb. Who needs craft when you can have a $200 cover that looks exactly like all the other covers in the world, and a completely unoriginal blurb written by a committee?


YES! This is the marketing strategy I've been looking for my entire life!


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

smreine said:


> But here's the thing--if you do a one-off book, and you're successful? You have to keep doing it, or else the audience you've gained from that experience is totally useless. If you're disdainful toward the genre, you're reeeaally going to have a slog. Way to make the funnest job in the world suck.
> 
> As others have said, write what you love. If YOU can get excited about it, others will, too. You can find success in any genre.


This! The second book is always the toughest because you're second-guessing yourself. I can't imagine going through that while hating it!


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I look at Amazon's bestseller list, and it makes me wish I could write romance novels. Romance novels are huge. For a while, I was seriously trying to write a romance novel. I even wrote an outline and a few chapters. But there's just one problem: I hate romance novels. I don't even like romantic movies. I just don't get it. Every word I wrote, I kept thinking, "Is this romantic? What's a romantic thing for this guy to say? If I have him say this, is that a turn off? Would this make the heroine unlikable?" Eventually I decided that it was pointless to try. My genre is adventure and scifi, and I could imagine what kind of novel someone who hated scifi would produce: crap. But I still wish I could get some of that romance pie.


I love romance novels, but I have yet to try my hand at them. I have one half done that is more romantic suspense, but it's threatening to turn into more of a thriller with romantic undertones. I also wish I could write romance! lol. I know the genre, I know what I like to read, and yet, I haven't been able to think of a single plot for a romance novel.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

Amanda Brice said:


> I really think it comes down to a time and place for things. I joined this forum because I'd heard it was THE place to learn about the business side of self-publishing. I suspect many others did as well. We already have our craft forums, so we don't take that here because that's not what we're here for.


I understand this. But I also think there is this huge missed opportunity because KB does have a great base of truly talented writers who could mentor beyond the "change the cover" cosmetic advice. Lots of folks come here to learn the business end, but part of the business IS craft and craft is something that needs to be addressed when it is a valid issue. The collective talent of this site, I feel, sometimes gets wasted on cosmetic stuff instead of meaty discussions. It's sort of like an accountant trying to teach the business to a person who can't do basic addition and doesn't know how to use a calculator.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I still work at it, too. I read. I attend seminars. I stalk people at conventions to pick their brains.  But there is something other than fear I sense. It's weird. But it is almost as if attempts to discuss craft get shot down. I stopped participating in a lot of the "why is this book not selling" threads because the very concept that the book was not ready for publication is forbidden from discussion. There are so many books that just are...not...ready. But mentioning fundamentals of writing is considered insulting, elitist, mean, or fill-in-the-blank with whatever you want. Unless your advice consists of
> 
> a. change your cover
> b. change your genre
> ...


I think we may be straying off topic, but this struck something within me, because I find that the few craft discussions we do have on this board quickly devolve to a sort of stand-off where people start (unknowingly) having this philosophical showdown over whether art should follow rules or not.

For example, a discussion about ways to execute the "moment of near defeat" is always tempered by a few people who speak up and say that they don't think that every novel needs a "moment of near defeat," and they like to just pick up their pens and write and see where it takes them without following any formula.

And then the can of worms is opened. In order to have a discussion about craft, first the people discussing would all have to agree that there's something to discuss and that all writing should not simply be done by closing one's eyes and being led blindly by the muse.

Heck, I don't even know if I agree about that. (I often get my best stuff being led blindly by the muse.) So... overall, I've given up on discussions about craft here, and it seems you have too.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> Personally, I don't talk about it here much but I'm constantly working on my craft. I still take writing courses constantly; I have another one coming up starting at the beginning of February. I


Ditto - in fact, we've been on the same course. 

I don't tend to get into craft discussions here for two reasons:

1) People tend to have strong ideas about what you should or shouldn't do - I'm not talking about grammar absolutes here - I'm talking about style. Having seen the hostility that broke out in here over whether or not to join Select - I'm not particularly inclined to discuss craft in the cafe when I know there are a few people who would just jump on my posts screaming, "YOU'RE WRONG!!!" This ties into my second reason...

2) I don't think it would be smart to keep advertising everything I feel I need to work on. This is because, if people see that I feel my weak points are: A, B, and C. Well, if they pick up one of my books, they'll be looking out for A, B, and C and that will detract from the story. Also, there are always going to be people who want to take you down or undermine you - and I don't see why I should make their job too easy for them! 

So - I'm just attending courses, reading articles, reading craft books, reading regular books (and studying them), doing writing exercises - and generally working on my craft in the background. Like Amanda, I think if I were to discuss craft, I'd rather do so in a password protected forum. You don't see many bestselling authors publicly posting, "Hey guys, I feel that I suck at this..." - and there's probably a reason for that. 

Kindleboards is great for talking about all the stuff that is less er... debatable! Things like whether there's a problem with reporting, or the best way to format a document for upload. Or what a new retailer/distributor is like. That sort of thing. It does often feel though, that unless you want to go KDP Select, do free promotions & advertise on the freebie blogs - you're better off just keeping quiet. You see the difference in the, "I've sold X copies this month" threads. If they did it via a freebie promotion, they just get congratulations. If they did it any other way - they also get challenged to provide proof.


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## britrocker (May 16, 2011)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I look at Amazon's bestseller list, and it makes me wish I could write romance novels. Romance novels are huge. For a while, I was seriously trying to write a romance novel. I even wrote an outline and a few chapters. But there's just one problem: I hate romance novels. I don't even like romantic movies. I just don't get it. Every word I wrote, I kept thinking, "Is this romantic? What's a romantic thing for this guy to say? If I have him say this, is that a turn off? Would this make the heroine unlikable?" Eventually I decided that it was pointless to try. My genre is adventure and scifi, and I could imagine what kind of novel someone who hated scifi would produce: crap. But I still wish I could get some of that romance pie.


Nigel, if you don't like romance books or movies I would skip attempting to write it as readers will notice it in your writing.

And that will result in more than normal bad reviews.

Having a crack at it is one thing, trying to shove a square peg in a round hole is another.

I take my hat off to you for attempting it but sounds like you know where your strengths are... capitalize on those. It will make your writing a helluva lot more enjoyable for you and for your readers.

Also bear in mind. Romance and Love doesn't have to be exclusive. You can have a mixture of sci-fi/love, history/love, horror/love etc...


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## Vanades (Aug 10, 2012)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> Every word I wrote, I kept thinking, "Is this romantic? What's a romantic thing for this guy to say? If I have him say this, is that a turn off? Would this make the heroine unlikable?" Eventually I decided that it was pointless to try. My genre is adventure and scifi, and I could imagine what kind of novel someone who hated scifi would produce: crap. But I still wish I could get some of that romance pie.


Maybe you shoudl simply write about what _you _think is romantic. Romance is a wide field and you have many options. I had a similar issue with a historical book I was working on. I liked the general idea, the characters and the setting but somehow was bored to tears by it. The moment I added a few paranormal elements to it and gave it a few more twists, everything fell in line much better.

I also wouldn't be able to write romance set in a contemporary setting but have no problem with it in a fantasy or SF setting.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I have to say I learned a lot trying to write romance. I used to think romance was easy: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.


No. It's girl meets boy.

And that might seem flippant, but I think it's an important distinction.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> No. It's girl meets boy.
> 
> And that might seem flippant, but I think it's an important distinction.


Very important distinction. What Courtney is trying to say is that romance is a genre aimed at women, so even if you write better heroes than heroines, you have to keep in mind your audience -- women.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> I can't imagine what the newest people feel like.


Like a little baby with his little weenie hanging out...wait bad analogy...or is it a metaphor (metafor?), or a similie? Allegory? Hold on, I'll get back to you.

I think Nigel should write a sci-fi romance. Take your typical sci-fi in which the guy gets the girl, try writing it in the 1st from HER POV, tone down the sci and rev up the characterization, make sure there's a HEA, and let her fly. See what results.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unless your advice consists of
> 
> a. change your cover
> b. change your genre
> ...


Julie, I'm the exact opposite of that. Because I am objectively a bad writer, I love 1 stars that actually point out things I did badly so I can learn from them, and I plead with my editors to be critical. Tell me when it's bad, so I can learn from it! I'm a big tough boy. I can take it.

Always got something to learn. And it's a lot.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I understand this. But I also think there is this huge missed opportunity because KB does have a great base of truly talented writers who could mentor beyond the "change the cover" cosmetic advice. Lots of folks come here to learn the business end, but part of the business IS craft and craft is something that needs to be addressed when it is a valid issue. The collective talent of this site, I feel, sometimes gets wasted on cosmetic stuff instead of meaty discussions. It's sort of like an accountant trying to teach the business to a person who can't do basic addition and doesn't know how to use a calculator.


It's important to note that providing this kind of help, unsolicited, can also be seen as a personal attack. I had a big post in one thread removed because someone was lamenting bad sales, and I went "well this and this and this, imo". Ahh well.

My motto is always: Come at me bro! I want to learn!


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

I would love to see more craft discussions on KB. We shouldn't knock the cover/blurb/etc threads--those are the things that make a book sell immediately. But craft is what keeps readers coming back in the long run. You don't need to be a great writer to sell well, but it sure as heck helps.

It would probably be hard to have quality craft discussions on a board like this without tight moderation. It'd be fun to try, though.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

We've had this discussion about craft here before. No way we get decent craft threads out in the open here where most of the people posting have books they'd like to at least pretend are professional quality, and they know potential readers may be reading their every word. People are too self-conscious. This is vanity-fair, the place people go to peddle what they've "learned" on other sites. That's why most people slink off to Critique Circle, or Writer's Biostro, or Scribophile, or wherever they go for that kind of talk.


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> We've had this discussion about craft here before. No way we get decent craft threads out in the open here where most of the people posting have books they'd like to at least pretend are professional quality, and they know potential readers may be reading their every word. People are too self-conscious. This is vanity-fair, the place people go to peddle what they've "learned" on other sites. That's why most people slink off to Critique Circle, or Writer's Biostro, or Scribophile, or wherever they go for that kind of talk.


You can talk about mechanics of craft without posting samples to be critiqued and making yourself look bad.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> I can't speak for everyone here, but I already have forums that I go to for craft discussion. I also attend countless workshops throughout the year, and have done so for years now.
> 
> I joined Kindleboards not for craft discussion, but for the discussions of the business and technical side of self-publishing (primarily on Kindle, but also on the other platforms). When I have craft questions or brainstorming, I take those to my other forums, because not only are those forums more genre-specific, but because that's where my comfort level is. (Those other forums are password-protected while this one is free and open). Plus that's just how I've been doing it for years now. Self-publishing is new to me, thus my participation on a new-to-me forum almost solely on that topic.


What she said. I work on craft outside of this forum in workshops,through reference books, by reading and studying novels, and participating in password protected forums. I come here to discuss business and chat with my virtual "friends".


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

I wrote a post-zombie-apocalyptic sci-fi novel in spite of the fact that I hate post-apocalypse stories. The reason I wrote it is that I had an interesting twist on it, and what came out was more or less an inversion of the trope. It's a post-apocalyptic world where the vast majority of the population has survived and infrastructure is basically intact, all stemming from the fact that I am pathologically unable to write a downer story. The catch: Inspiration hit me first. It's weird to get inspired to write in a genre or sub-genre you don't like, but it happens.

I don't share George's masochistic streak of diving into a format and intentionally writing something terrible that fits it, but I do admire his style. He's in it for the challenge though, not the money, and it invokes a different mindset. If you write something you don't like with the aim of making money, readers will see right through that. But if you wrote a romance that basically upturned and parodied the genre conventions because you hate the genre, going in with a knowledge of what you were mocking and a savage wit, you'd pique quite a lot of interest and perhaps satisfy a craving for destruction. The love for what you were doing, and the attention paid to the craft of doing it well (or deliberately badly), would be there.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "I wondered if anyone else had that experience of wanting to write in a different genre. Glad I'm not alone"


Not sure if you are old enough to remember _Dark Shadows_ on TV. They took a soap opera and threw a vampire in the middle. I occasionally see soaps and wonder about someone from from _Vampire Diaries_ or _True Blood_ visiting. It might be fun.

I don't read romance or vampire stuff, so maybe it's already been done a zillion times?


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> <snip>
> I used to think romance was easy: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl.
> <snip>


That was your first mistake. It's:

Girl meets boy. Girl loses boy. Girl gets boy.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't think Kindleboards is a good place to discuss craft.

Any general advice is would be greeted by: that's not a rule, I do that and xyz famous author does it.

Specific advice would be treated as a personal attack by many.


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

It is ok to write for the money. Just make sure it isn't something you loathe. Personally I hate romance. Erotica on the other hand...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

smreine said:


> You can talk about mechanics of craft without posting samples to be critiqued and making yourself look bad.


Start a couple. Let's see how much action they get. I'm too new to this writing stuff, or I'd do it myself. Wouldn't know where to start. I love reading them, though.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

I'd have to applaud the writer who can succeed by writing in a genre he dislikes. That's talent. Is there any support for the notion that a talented writer can't write and sell well in a genre he dislikes? Why can't he?

And love of the craft vs money? Millions of people feed their families everyday by working at jobs they dislike. I have far more respect for them than for those who can only do what they like.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

David J Normoyle said:


> I don't think Kindleboards is a good place to discuss craft.
> 
> Any general advice is greeted by: that's not a rule, I do that and xyz famous author does it.


Ha! Thank you for saying what I have been trying to say so succinctly.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> In the end, someone had to die. Then the story worked, but it's sure not a typical romance anymore. LOL.
> 
> I wouldn't rule out writing a typical romance. Maybe one day I'll finish that one I started years ago. In the meantime, my typical plot for a "romance" seems to be something along the lines of _girl meets boy and someone dies a horrible, horrible death_.
> 
> That's why I've learned to mostly stay far, far away from threads with people asking for cover advice. Too often, I think, someone asks for advice when really all they want is people to tell them their cover is the best cover ever made anywhere, EVAH!


That sounds like a nicholas sparks novel. He loves killing his leads  Must be a male thing. We love to maim everyone.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I think it's entirely possible that a writer can hate what he/she's producing and still put out a d*mn fine novel.

Why? Because I think we all have hateful days where we despise whatever we're working on, even if it's our most favorite genre and beloved characters. That hate doesn't come out in the tough scenes, so long as you work hard.

I'm not great at Romance-category stuff. I can do rom-com and stuff with romance elements. I've produced the occasional "Romance" purely by accident, but I'm a withholding author. Withholding. That is all.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Dalya said:


> I'm not great at Romance-category stuff. I can do rom-com and stuff with romance elements. I've produced the occasional "Romance" purely by accident, but I'm a withholding author. Withholding. That is all.


What's funny is that I'm the freaking president of the DC area RWA chapter. To date, all my published work is rom-com or stuff with romantic elements. With a heavier emphasis on the other elements.


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## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

I feel your pain . . . except for I actually force myself to write romance. My sales reflect that it is definitely a money making genre. Still, I absolutely hate writing it.


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## SaraJoEaston (Dec 10, 2011)

It would appear the trite phrase "write what you know" actually has some relevance here. 

I'm not a personal advocate of that phrase, as I don't know any dragon-like creatures or succubi.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Craft threads on here tend to get weird. Maybe because we're "published" we're not in the Beginner frame of mind? I like to learn, but I'm definitely not in that headspace of being truly open.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

SaraJoEaston said:


> It would appear the trite phrase "write what you know" actually has some relevance here.


I'm sure that there are countless authors out there who have known romance, but don't like writing the genre. I think the more pertinent axiom would be "write what you love to write".


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Dalya said:


> I'm definitely not in that headspace of being truly open.


_Sigh._ We know.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Lots of folks come here to learn the business end, but part of the business IS craft and craft is something that needs to be addressed when it is a valid issue. The collective talent of this site, I feel, sometimes gets wasted on cosmetic stuff instead of meaty discussions.


Well, yes, but many of us don't actually _know_ anything about craft, but can only blindly parrot whatever bits of sage advice we might have stumbled across once and managed to remember. And we do so loudly and at great length, to hide our insecurity over the fact that others around us are breaking the rules and not facing the appropriate repercussions.  And when you smart people start getting together and slinging around phrases like "conjunction modifiers", you might as well be speaking Latin.

Which reminds me, I found a _marvelous_ cringe-worthy example of how *not* to "show, don't tell" the other day.

_--George, Romane eunt domum..._


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## Starfire (Jun 25, 2012)

I'd _love_ a craft forum.

I know many people prefer workshops, conferences, etc., but I'm housebound, unable to use the phone easily, and have a slow internet connection.

Forums? THOSE I can participate in!  OTOH, if most people wouldn't be interested, it wouldn't be much of a forum.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> What's funny is that I'm the freaking president of the DC area RWA chapter. To date, all my published work is rom-com or stuff with romantic elements. With a heavier emphasis on the other elements.


What is even funnier: I write suspense about an assassin in a relationship with a blind character. And I received reviews and requests for an author interview from readers who are looking for fiction with believable disabled characters. Most of the novels they read are romance novels, but the problem is that the women who enter into a relationship with a blind character are often whiny with low self-esteem and body image issues, not a kick-ass heroine. And the blind characters are often recently blinded, suicide-prone, self-pitying dweebs who cannot commit because they don't want the woman to 'suffer' under the consequences of their affliction, not a capable, philosophical, smart jazz musician who studies aikido and shiatsu and has his own life in order. So these women are encouraging others to read my books and just 'skip the bloody gory suspense part' and get on the realistic interaction and relationship between Katla and Bram. So my suspense series is actually enjoyed by romance lovers because the romantic scenes strike their fancy more than the romantic scenes in the romances they read...

The thing is, I don't do 'romance' stuff. There is not push-pull attraction until the end of the book where the heroine can finally jump on the hero's naked torso. The tension is not 'will he overcome his commitment issues', but 'will he become a liability and do I have to kill him'. When the man is shirtless, his body is not a sculpted torso with rippling muscles, but he's scruffy and built like a whippet. The swooning parts are from the loss of blood, not high emotion. Nobody is falling head over heels in love, the attraction builds slowly and naturally.

Still, there are romance readers who read my series for the romance...


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

SaraJoEaston said:


> It would appear the trite phrase "write what you know" actually has some relevance here.
> 
> I'm not a personal advocate of that phrase, as I don't know any dragon-like creatures or succubi.


Dragons and succubi are my bread and butter, but then, I have known a few fire-breathers and soul-suckers in my time.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It isn't you per se. It's something I see over and over and over.


It's something you see over and over again. It annoyed Meljean Brook enough that she made a very humorous blog post about it - Book Pr0n (http://meljeanbrook.com/my-book-pr0n/). No pictures of flesh, but definitely some double entendre going. Also, you might not want to be taking a sip of anything lest you spit it on your monitor 

I agree with Amanda the the Cafe has always been geared toward the business end of indie _publishing_ and less toward writing. Nothing new with that. I think it's just how the board evolved.

I also agree with Julie that constructive criticism is rarely appreciated, but you see that everywhere on the internet. The Cafe is hardly alone in that regard (sadly).

Good thread.


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

I don't think craft discussions would work very well here. It's hard to gauge what level a writer is at through an open forum like this -- you get the person who's worked for 20 years at their writing and the person who just started last week. And what happens when maybe the person who started last week is more successful -- are they a better writer? Do they know more and can they help?

Working on craft is better suited to a dedicated forum or craft classes. And I know I've been in a ton of classes with writers, who are ostensibly there to learn, who have a ton to learn, and yet are not open to criticism of their baby at all. In an open forum? No. Just...no.

The Writers Cafe is much better suited to discussions of mailing lists and covers and stuff.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> _Sigh._ We know.


It's because I hate everything.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Maybe because we're "published" we're not in the Beginner frame of mind? I like to learn, but I'm definitely not in that headspace of being truly open.


I think this is true. I feel like I went through my writing craft apprenticeship already. When I was starting up, I'd read books, hang around in forums, looking to learn all about the craft of writing. I feel that I now know at least 90% of what I need. And now it's all about applying that, and writing great stories. I know I won't ever be a master of the art of a writing, the way a literary writer is, but I think I can get a story down well enough that most readers won't see the words, just the story. I no longer seek out writing advice the way I used to anymore (though I still, of course, polish to the best of my ability and use beta readers and editors). I think my craft is good enough--or I wouldn't have self published--and that now I need to see if I can create stories, characters and worlds that will thrill readers. Then I need to find readers (which I hope Kindleboards will help me do.)


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## SaraJoEaston (Dec 10, 2011)

RobertJCrane said:


> Dragons and succubi are my bread and butter, but then, I have known a few fire-breathers and soul-suckers in my time.


When you put it that way, who hasn't?


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

I like romantic elements in my stories but straight romance? Hmm... the male and female MC in the book I'm currently editing hold hands and say "To our sweet shining tomorrow!" before running forward together at one point.

However, the female MC is so badly scarred that one of her best friends says she'd be "horribly ugly" to him if he didn't know her, is the size of a male WWE wrestler, and she's running with the male MC to fight six 20+ foot tall abominations and an angel-like being.

She's so awesome...


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

George Berger said:


> I think, in a nutshell, it's that we're not all jerks, and that many of us are cynical enough to know that telling people who somehow didn't realize their already-published book is riddled with grammatical errors isn't going to do any real good.
> 
> That, and among the groupthink's problems is this weird belief that even the steamiest pile of camel dung will sell if you just give it a predictable enough cover and blurb. Who needs craft when you can have a $200 cover that looks exactly like all the other covers in the world, and a completely unoriginal blurb written by a committee?


You forgot your tag line:

_George Berger -- repressed curmudgeon. _


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But there is something other than fear I sense. It's weird. But it is almost as if attempts to discuss craft get shot down. I stopped participating in a lot of the "why is this book not selling" threads because the very concept that the book was not ready for publication is forbidden from discussion. There are so many books that just are...not...ready. But mentioning fundamentals of writing is considered insulting, elitist, mean, or fill-in-the-blank with whatever you want. Unless your advice consists of
> 
> a. change your cover
> b. change your genre
> ...


Maybe part of the problem is that it's very hard to critique these "global" elements effectively unless you read the whole manuscript -- or at least a sizable chunk of it. Mechanical issues in the writing are relatively easy to see in the first few pages of a book, so telling someone they need an editor is within the realm of possibility, but the big stuff requires a serious time commitment on the part of the critiquer, and most of us (I'm guessing) come to KB for a quick break in the midst of other tasks. We're not up for spending an hour reading the first five or six chapters of someone's book so that we can address issues like pacing, character development, and so forth.

But yes, the other part of it might be that we tend to operate under the assumption that all KBers are equally skilled and practiced writers, rather than dividing into newbie-supplicants vs. expert-teachers. I think that's probably a good thing for the health of the forum.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> But yes, the other part of it might be that we tend to operate under the assumption that all KBers are equally skilled and practiced writers


And those of us who aren't, are pretending to be and would rather not shatter the illusion, so that when our long overdue book comes out, we can trick the readers who peruse the boards into not dismissing it offhand.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Maybe part of the problem is that it's very hard to critique these "global" elements effectively unless you read the whole manuscript -- or at least a sizable chunk of it. Mechanical issues in the writing are relatively easy to see in the first few pages of a book, so telling someone they need an editor is within the realm of possibility, but the big stuff requires a serious time commitment on the part of the critiquer, and most of us (I'm guessing) come to KB for a quick break in the midst of other tasks. We're not up for spending an hour reading the first five or six chapters of someone's book so that we can address issues like pacing, character development, and so forth.


I think some folks may have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying people MUST offer critiques of these things. I'm saying that in the past, when folks HAVE gone above and beyond and offered these critiques they have been attacked. Ironically, the worst attacks I've ever gotten over these critiques never came from the actual author who would initiate the question, but other people who got offended on behalf of the author. I've seen folks make relatively mundane suggestions over certain plot points or offer feedback and get blasted by other people, not the actual author asking for feedback. it's weird. There were a few instances where I would get private messages from the original posters along the lines of "sorry the thread got sidetracked. What was it again you were saying about..." and they would continue to pick my brain privately. Meanwhile, the thread would devolve into nonsense as people would get all bent out of shape that someone dared to take the time to read the OP's excerpt and offer a critique...that the OP was asking for. 

And honestly, you can't even tell someone they need an editor anymore without THAT devolving into an attack on the editing professional and people piling on about how they don't need editors because they have great beta readers or can edit themselves.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> And those of us who aren't, are pretending to be and would rather not shatter the illusion, so that when our long overdue book comes out, we can trick the readers who peruse the boards into not dismissing it offhand.


I'd say those of us with only _one_ book out are in the same boat.


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## sweetcrabhoney18 (Dec 10, 2012)

You'd most likely more money writing what you love than writing what you hate. I do understand however, "follow the money." but that only works if you are able to commit to it. Just write what you and enjoy and you will enjoy the profits even more.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think some folks may have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying people MUST offer critiques of these things. I'm saying that in the past, when folks HAVE gone above and beyond and offered these critiques they have been attacked. Ironically, the worst attacks I've ever gotten over these critiques never came from the actual author who would initiate the question, but other people who got offended on behalf of the author. I've seen folks make relatively mundane suggestions over certain plot points or offer feedback and get blasted by other people, not the actual author asking for feedback. it's weird. There were a few instances where I would get private messages from the original posters along the lines of "sorry the thread got sidetracked. What was it again you were saying about..." and they would continue to pick my brain privately. Meanwhile, the thread would devolve into nonsense as people would get all bent out of shape that someone dared to take the time to read the OP's excerpt and offer a critique...that the OP was asking for.
> 
> And honestly, you can't even tell someone they need an editor anymore without THAT devolving into an attack on the editing professional and people piling on about how they don't need editors because they have great beta readers or can edit themselves.


Hmm. If the assumption I mentioned (we're all equally practiced) has become firmly established as part of KB's ethos, then people are going to feel invested in defending it -- perhaps especially when someone else's writing is the subject, since if you defend someone else, you're being nice, but if you defend yourself, you just seem defensive. I guess the real question is whether "no craft criticism" has become part of KB's community ethos. If it has, then that's a line that shouldn't be crossed. All communities have their unwritten but highly valued modi operandi, and all that.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Ironically, the worst attacks I've ever gotten over these critiques never came from the actual author who would initiate the question, but other people who got offended on behalf of the author.


I find this bizarre too. I can understand the author getting worked up-that's a natural human reaction to criticism, and it's often excusable. But the enraged peanut gallery response to the very idea of criticism is more difficult to fathom. You'd think no one ever benefitted from criticism. Only empty praise has value.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

For me as a writer - whether I am writing romantic suspense, psychological thrillers, ghost stories, coming-of-age or anything else, the very core of each story is both the emotional and the psychological development of my characters. That's what makes stories unique. It is virtually impossible to write an original plot. The only way I stay interested in a story - either one I'm reading or one I'm writing - is trying to understand the inner drives of the characters. Without that they re just puppets going through the motions.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> But mentioning fundamentals of writing is considered insulting, elitist, mean, or fill-in-the-blank with whatever you want... Your advice is not welcome. That is the general feeling I get sometimes. Offering feedback on actual CRAFT issues like plot, character development, pacing, dialogue, setting...off limits.


I get that feeling much of the time, too. I've resorted to just saying "this is what I do" but Julie is correct, there is a contingent that pitches a hissy-fit if you indicate that writers should actually learn how to write.


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## thwaters (Dec 12, 2011)

Ha Ha Ha!  You rock, Nigel.  Love your raw honestly - so refreshing.  I must admit that I feel exactly the same way.  I've never gone so far as to write something down but wish I could extract it from the depths of my DNA.  No such luck.  Thanks for the laugh!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "there is a contingent that pitches a hissy-fit if you indicate that writers should actually learn how to write."


Agree. There is also a contingent that offers cogent and intelligent argument supporting a different perspective. Some people set themselves up as arbiters of quality and then dictate standards to the rest. Others dictate the production process an author should use. They encounter people who do the same but have different ideas. And those hissies tend to play on both sides with equal levels of self-importance. Ain't this a great country?

Yes, I am so very important.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I'd say those of us with only _one_ book out are in the same boat.


Yeah, right. Those discussions you, Mike and WHDean have make my head spin, teacher. You're not pretending. You're the real deal. By the way, what do you think the WH stands for? I'm going with Willy Hashaway.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, right. Those discussions you, Mike and WHDean have make my head spin, teacher. You're not pretending. You're the real deal. By the way, what do you think the WH stands for? I'm going with Willy Dashaway.


Heh. You're a sweetheart, vrab. 

"Willy Dashaway" would be cool, but wouldn't the "H" have to stand for something that starts with "H"? (You can't sneak nothin' by us teachers.) Maybe ... Willy Hifenate? No, too obvious.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, right. Those discussions you, Mike and WHDean have make my head spin, teacher. You're not pretending. You're the real deal. By the way, what do you think the WH stands for? I'm going with Willy Hashaway.


Legally, it's "Wanda Hazel" because I'm still in transition. A few more shots and some paperwork and it'll be "Washington Hightower."


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a little bit of trouble with the underlying assumption that if your book is romance, it WILL sell, or its cousin, that if you write romance, it will be easier to make money.

I'd argue that it's probably harder to sell well in romance, because a lot more people are writing it and the field is much more crowded. It's being sold more as well of course, and this feeds the assumption that it's easier to succeed in romance.

I think the OP may suffer a spot of grass-is-greener-itis.

Of course it's the genre you don't write that offers more opportunities, just like the neighbour's house is always better than yours.

That said, there is nothing wrong with trying some new genres to see if *you* can sell them better than you're selling your regular genre. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

Meanwhile, I really wonder where people get the idea that for the proportion of writers writing SF/F, it's any harder to do well than for those writing romance.

[insert sneeze that sounds like Hugh Howey]


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

WHDean said:


> Legally, it's "Wanda Hazel" because I'm still in transition. A few more shots and some paperwork and it'll be "Washington Hightower."


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

RE: grass-is-greener-itis ...

Is it possible every genre has a balanced and equal supply versus demand of authors?

Or are there genres under-served?

Is the coming-of-age category the most over-saturated, since every beginner writer shoots one out prematurely?


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## Bianca Sloane (Nov 6, 2012)

Funny...I just wrote a blog on this topic.  Write what you're passionate about. Period.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Dalya, I wish that sort of information was available, but I think it'd be very hard to collect depending on how you identified the market for a particular genre and how you determined which books belong in the genre or not.

Maybe there is some sort of balance between the number of authors and the number of people wanting to read the genre.

In any case, it strikes me that books in the SF/F category do very well, so "I don't sell well because I write SF" doesn't strike me as a valid statement.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

re: 'Write what you know'
I saw that old chestnut roll by, I think on page 3, but I also remember seeing a documentary on a prolific and successful romance writer who turned out to be a thirty-something virgin spinster living with her mother. She never had a meaningful relationship, but her imagination fueled her passionate romances and readers lapped it up because romance is often idealized. That's why many romance novels end when the courting couple fall into each other's arms or when they stand on the steps of the church at their wedding. Rarely do we see beyond when the hero's rushes out the door with a half-eaten sandwich to get to work, while mom drives the twins to soccer practice.
Romance, like most fiction, is escapism.

re: romance vs money.
When I was considered smart by peers to write in English instead of Dutch, they claimed that there were more books sold in English than in Dutch. I told them there were also more writers and competition was fierce. If I'd written in Dutch, I might be a minor celebrity now, like a Koi carp in a bowl of goldfish, instead of a goldfish in a large pond filled with Koi.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Dalya, I wish that sort of information was available, but I think it'd be very hard to collect depending on how you identified the market for a particular genre and how you determined which books belong in the genre or not.
> 
> Maybe there is some sort of balance between the number of authors and the number of people wanting to read the genre.
> 
> In any case, it strikes me that books in the SF/F category do very well, so "I don't sell well because I write SF" doesn't strike me as a valid statement.


You can't really go by what agents/editors are asking for, because they might be looking for the Lottery Ticket books, as opposed to Milk and Bread Money books.

I've written for a few categories and genres so far, and I've seen that some markets have been more accessible, but I can't say it's the genre and not some stroke of luck.


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## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

smreine said:


> But here's the thing--if you do a one-off book, and you're successful? You have to keep doing it, or else the audience you've gained from that experience is totally useless. If you're disdainful toward the genre, you're reeeaally going to have a slog. Way to make the funnest job in the world suck.


I think this is one of the more interesting points in the 'write genres you don't know/like' discussion. The same argument occurred to me when I was considering exploring erotic romance. Unless you write the next 50 Shades, you're hardly going to sustain an income from a single novel. Even if you do well for a month or two, it's going to peter out soon enough. The indie authors that do really well are those with catalogues of at least a few books, all working as advertisements for one another. So even if you pull it off, the rewards probably aren't going to be great unless you continue down that path.

I do think it's possible to write a good book in a genre you aren't particularly familiar with. Saying otherwise is making the process a bit more mystical than it is. Good writers produce good writing, and with a little work they can make it fit unfamiliar molds. As someone said, many mid listers used to make a living doing just that. But your choice of genre definitely affects how tough it is. Romance is hard because its audience expects it to conform to more conventions than most. Something like fantasy has tropes sure, but nobody minds if they get subverted. Try to subvert the HEA in romance and you're asking to get skewered. You definitely need to do your research before testing your feet in new genres.

I'm probably still going to finish my erotic romance experiment, but mostly because I think it can teach me something and make me a better writer. Every genre calls for slightly different tools, with romance being strong on emotion and character development. I've already written ~40k words of it, and I already have a much better understanding of the way to structure an emotional arc than when I started. Even if the end result doesn't do well, my future work will be better for having written it, and at this point, that's one of my big goals.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I write three types of novels, so far. My supernatural ones, because I've had a lifelong interest and have some unique perspectives when writing in the genre. My real life history mystery because I love history mysteries. And science fiction stories, mainly as flash fiction pieces, because I just don't have the time right now to devote to all three genres.

I love all three genres and have been reading all three since I could read. I don't possibly see how my passion could translate to something I don't love. In fact, it would be agonizing trying to write something I didn't care about.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I do think it's possible to write a good book in a genre you aren't particularly familiar with. Saying otherwise is making the process a bit more mystical than it is. Good writers produce good writing, and with a little work they can make it fit unfamiliar molds.


I agree. I wouldn't want to write a book in a genre I hated, though. I might be able to do it well, but there wouldn't be any joy in it. It seems to me there's no point in writing if it's just drudgery.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Courtney Milan said:


> No. It's girl meets boy.
> 
> And that might seem flippant, but I think it's an important distinction.


It's just a figure of speech. My novel was about a heroine, girl meets boy. I think that was my biggest problem. I couldn't write from the woman's romantic point of view. I know what makes a woman attractive to a man, but as a straight male, I don't know what attracts women to men, besides the obvious of tall, muscular, and handsome. Like the whole bad boy/alpha male concept baffles me. I've read novels where the man seems absolutely cold or even abusive, but female readers fawn over them. Likewise, how to write a loving and tender male without making him seem wimpy. It's a delicate balancing act I couldn't pull off.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> It's just a figure of speech. My novel was about a heroine, girl meets boy. I think that was my biggest problem. I couldn't write from the woman's romantic point of view. I know what makes a woman attractive to a man, but as a straight male, I don't know what attracts women to men, besides the obvious of tall, muscular, and handsome. Like the whole bad boy/alpha male concept baffles me. I've read novels where the man seems absolutely cold or even abusive, but female readers fawn over them. Likewise, how to write a loving and tender male without making him seem wimpy. It's a delicate balancing act I couldn't pull off.


I don't think it's the behaviour that women are necessarily attracted to - I think it's what they read into it. For example, if the hero is cold and distant - it's never because he's a jerk (though she probably thinks that when she first meets him) - it's because he's been badly hurt in the past and he's on the defensive. As the story progresses, the heroine realises why he's acting that way. Eventually, it probably turns out that he was being such a jerk to her because he was in love with her and was trying to protect her/himself from the likelihood of anything happening between them. She makes it clear that she loves him anyway. The heroine's love heals him and he stops acting like a jerk. - That's a standard romance plot.

However, you can also have thoroughly decent guys (good, strong (normally physically, but not necessarily), and noble) who are kept apart from their true love by misunderstandings, circumstances, or by someone else plotting against either the hero or the heroine. If anyone wants to write romance and wants to see how a variety of different heroes can work - go to the library and read a few of the following Georgette Heyer regency romances. She has a whole variety of heroes who break the brooding, bad boy mold: Cotillion, False Colours, The Unknown Ajax, The Nonesuch, The Masqueraders, The Toll Gate, Sprig Muslin, The Foundling. - Any of those will give you a non-jerky hero to study.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Some people set themselves up as arbiters of quality and then dictate standards to the rest.


If you can't tell the difference between "discuss" and "dictate" there's no point in even trying.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I have to say I learned a lot trying to write romance. I used to think romance was easy: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl. But in reading up on romance, and trying to form a plot, I realized it's not that simple.
> 
> ....
> 
> I have a lot more respect for romance authors than I did before.


Romance writers are like Rodney Dangerfield - they get very little respect outside the genre. But each genre has it's conventions - it isn't fair for the reader, or the writer, to write a genre you hate.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "If you can't tell the difference between "discuss" and "dictate" there's no point in even trying."


Agree. There is a difference, and I recognize it. It doesn't take much trying. We have those who discuss, and we have those who dictate. Some even multi-task. But many of those who dictate don't like discussion of the merits of their dictates on quality or the production process. Some hissies are very important.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Nigel: I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for starting this thought-provoking thread. I thought for sure it would unravel quickly, and there were a few popcorn-eating moments when it looked like that might happen, but I think the responses have mostly been thoughtful and considerate.

My wife is writing her first romance novel now, and I'm one of her alpha readers. It has been fun and interesting watching her learn and struggle with the story. I'm not really much of a romance reader myself, although I do read the ones she passes along to me knowing I'll like them (and I usually do). Working with her as she progresses has been incredibly educational for me.

From what I understand, all great writing is about evoking an emotional response in your reader, regardless of what genre you write. Some genres focus on love and happiness while others focus on fear, nostalgia, or [pick an emotion]. I think the emotional response you are trying to get from your reader defines your genre more than anything else.

Of course, the emotions/genres aren't mutually exclusive. I write magical fantasy adventure, but my lead character has a love interest, and I try to make that relationship _matter_ to the reader. I don't know if it's possible to show love developing between two characters without including elements of romance in the story.

I guess I'm agreeing with those who have suggested you incorporate romantic elements with the kind of writing you love most. I think every story deserves a little romance.


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I don't think it's the behaviour that women are necessarily attracted to - I think it's what they read into it. For example, if the hero is cold and distant - it's never because he's a jerk (though she probably thinks that when she first meets him) - it's because he's been badly hurt in the past and he's on the defensive. As the story progresses, the heroine realises why he's acting that way. Eventually, it probably turns out that he was being such a jerk to her because he was in love with her and was trying to protect her/himself from the likelihood of anything happening between them. She makes it clear that she loves him anyway. The heroine's love heals him and he stops acting like a jerk. - That's a standard romance plot.
> 
> However, you can also have thoroughly decent guys (good, strong (normally physically, but not necessarily), and noble) who are kept apart from their true love by misunderstandings, circumstances, or by someone else plotting against either the hero or the heroine. If anyone wants to write romance and wants to see how a variety of different heroes can work - go to the library and read a few of the following Georgette Heyer regency romances. She has a whole variety of heroes who break the brooding, bad boy mold: Cotillion, False Colours, The Unknown Ajax, The Nonesuch, The Masqueraders, The Toll Gate, Sprig Muslin, The Foundling. - Any of those will give you a non-jerky hero to study.


Wow, that's great insight. You should write a how-to book if you haven't already


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## Jeanne Lynn (Nov 19, 2012)

I always want to write dirty erotica, but every time I sit down and try, I feel silly. Everything I write makes me laugh.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Jeanne Lynn said:


> I always want to write dirty erotica, but every time I sit down and try, I feel silly. Everything I write makes me laugh.


You may be onto something. If others have the same reaction, you could have a future in erotic comedy!


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Jeanne Lynn said:


> I always want to write dirty erotica, but every time I sit down and try, I feel silly. Everything I write makes me laugh.


That's not a bad thing. Laughter is an aphrodisiac, or so it's claimed.

My erotica usually contains more bad jokes than actual sex. Mind you, it also almost never sells, so...


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Nigel Mitchell said:


> I look at Amazon's bestseller list, and it makes me wish I could write romance novels. Romance novels are huge. For a while, I was seriously trying to write a romance novel. I even wrote an outline and a few chapters. But there's just one problem: I hate romance novels. I don't even like romantic movies. I just don't get it. Every word I wrote, I kept thinking, "Is this romantic? What's a romantic thing for this guy to say? If I have him say this, is that a turn off? Would this make the heroine unlikable?" Eventually I decided that it was pointless to try. My genre is adventure and scifi, and I could imagine what kind of novel someone who hated scifi would produce: crap. But I still wish I could get some of that romance pie.


The key to success is, write what you love... write it to the top level of your skill... and let the sales take care of themselves.

Those who follow trends don't produce lasting work, and are usually too far behind the trends to stand out anyway.

When Stephen King began writing horror in the early 1970s, the genre was considered little more than pulp. Those who directed scary movies were often spoken of in the same hushed tones one uses to speak of those who directed porn. It was very much a minority subculture that even read it.

But King loved scary stories; had loved them since he grew up on EC Horror comics (which had inspired a U.S. Senate investigation and the creation of the Comics Code Authority).

So he wrote horror, even though very few authors were writing it at the time.

And with his level of skill, which he brought to bear rather than writing down to the genre as many did, King elevated the genre. By the time novels like Cujo, Christine, and Pet Sematary came out, he'd become the genre's top name, and one of the best-selling writers in the country.

Know what WAS popular back then? What "sold well"?

Philosophical fiction like Johnathan Livingston Seagull and extremely long, sweeping historical epics by James A. Michener.

(SOURCE: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/25thann/bestsellers.htm)

If a young King had followed the "what's hot" trends, he'd have labored to produce titles like BANGOR: A Novel, or MAINE: A Work of Historical Fiction.

And he probably would have hated doing it, and would have been called a Michener clone.

Instead, he concentrated on what he loved - horror - and while his novels like IT and NEEDFUL THINGS are indeed sweeping and epic and really really LONG ... and are often allegorical to the Maine he knows so well ... evidence that Michener may have influenced him a BIT... he made horror extremely hot as a genre, even though it wasn't until the 1980s that King's books started outselling Michener's.

How? By writing what HE loved, rather than following "what's hot" trends.

Good career advice for anyone: write what you love, and write it at the top of your ability. Let sales take care of themselves.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> ...
> Good career advice for anyone: write what you love, and write it at the top of your ability. Let sales take care of themselves.


I dunno. I'm advising people to write in genres that I don't personally write in, and to really, really, really take their time. And draw their own covers. And do their own editing. And blend together as many different genres as possible. Actually, they should stick to writing only what they know, only things they've done. And they should spend a LOT of time researching, and then just as much time using the thesaurus to substitute a different word for whatever they were going to say. Oh, and every sentence should have two adjectives, minimum. But most importantly, whatever they're doing, they're doing it wrong, and readers will know. They should probably just quit now.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Those who follow trends don't produce lasting work, and *are usually too far behind the trends to stand out anyway.*


This was true in the past when it could take years from the time you started writing something for it to be picked up and hit the shelves, but in the age of self-publishing it's less so.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Dalya said:


> I dunno. I'm advising people to write in genres that I don't personally write in, and to really, really, really take their time. And draw their own covers. And do their own editing. And blend together as many different genres as possible. Actually, they should stick to writing only what they know, only things they've done. And they should spend a LOT of time researching, and then just as much time using the thesaurus to substitute a different word for whatever they were going to say. Oh, and every sentence should have two adjectives, minimum. But most importantly, whatever they're doing, they're doing it wrong, and readers will know. They should probably just quit now.


Consider my advice amended to this:

Do everything Dalya says. Do not do anything Dalya doesn't advise.  Dalya is NOT a cult leader... but do everything she says, precisely, and nothing else. 

That is all.

(Intended as tongue-in-cheek, but Dalya IS someone worth listening to.)


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