# The importance of outlines



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

People often ask me how I write so fast. I honestly believe it's because I outline. Now, I don't always follow my outlines. If I get into it and get a better idea I have no problem changing it. My outlines don't even flesh everything out. They're more like pacing beats and tidbits. It does help me to keep track of my story. Thanks to outlines I've finished four novels and two 25,000-word shorts since the beginning of January. I will finish another full WIP by Sunday. I didn't write today because I had to listen to and approve an audio book. When I was done, though, I put together five outlines. Yes. Five. I did three in one series and two in another. My hand hurts because I outline in notebooks by hand. It's because of outlines, though, that I will finish one book this week and start another next week. I honestly don't know how pantsers do it, but I give them a lot of credit. I would be lost without my outlines.


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## ML-Larson (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes, to all of this.  If I sit down and actually take the time to write out a good outline, which may take a few days, I can get through a full novella in about 2-3 days.  All told, it may take about a week to finish the first draft, from conception to getting the last word out.  Which, by contrast, often spans into eternity if I just make it up as I go along.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

I always pants, because writing an outline seems crazy hard. How can you know what's going to happen before it happens?

But can you post an image of yours? Or describe how you do it in detail. Maybe I've been doing it wrong.


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## ML-Larson (Feb 18, 2015)

funthebear said:


> I always pants, because writing an outline seems crazy hard. How can you know what's going to happen before it happens?
> 
> But can you post an image of yours? Or describe how you do it in detail. Maybe I've been doing it wrong.


That's what an outline does. Is it tells you what's going to happen.

How I do it is I have a book in which I keep all of my rough ideas. When I'm ready to plot something out, I write down everything I can think of; characters, places, things I want to happen, dialogue bits that have popped into my head. No detail is too small or too stupid. I also write down every possibility I can think of for how the story will go. Maybe they'll do this, or maybe this will happen. Eventually, as I do this, the details of the story begin to pop up. By the second or third page, the notes begin to get more coherent, and I start writing them down more or less in order.

Once it feels like there's a full story there, I write down each individual beat on notecards. This happens, then this happens, then this, then this. It's very precise, but also very vague. I don't describe the scene; just the key details. Characters that get introduced, decisions that affect the next line in the sequence. Each card winds up accounting for anywhere from 500-1000 words. Sometimes, I'll stray a bit, but if I stray too far, I always start over to make sure I don't meander.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I "panst" the way you outline. Sit down at the keboard, tell the character to tell their story and start typing as they tell me. I don't get as many done, but I have many other things I do that matter to me besides writing. If I outlined I'd get less books out. DIfferent personalities and tendencies, I think. Total right brain here. 

Since fall: 2 novels, 12 short stories.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?

At the risk of pissing you off - are these books any good?

I mean I understand that trad pub companies can hold the author up and that he/she should be able to produce more than one novel a year, but really..... Four in three months?

Writing is supposed to be a somewhat slow process, not where you just churn out stuff like a monkey at a keyboard.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

If include the fall that would be another six novels. My beats aren't as long as ML's. I have nice lined notebooks, one for each series, and I basically write down the chapter name and a couple sentences that happen in that chapter. Then I move on to the next chapter, and the next, and so on. This is how I support myself now, so I have to focus on writing. I also happen to enjoy it. Writing outlines makes me excited to write the book. Unfortunately for me, I won't start anything I did today for months. I have a strict writing schedule through June that will add another two shorts and three novels to my desktop. I work ahead for my pen name, so that stuff won't even be published until the fall.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


No. I like to put out crap.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


I kind of disagree with you that writing is supposed to be any type of specific process? Writing is as individual as the people who write. Right now I manage a novel every month and a half to two months. The only reason it's not faster is because I write more than one thing at a time and I have a full-time job. Yoda writes full-time and is making far more than a living from it, from my understanding. I think it's kind of BS to say that writing is 'supposed' to be anything. It's disparaging to those who can write that fast. -shrug-

I don't outline. I find them stifling and more anxiety-ridden than they're worth. I simply, as a writer, can't cope with outlines before the story is written. I am using them while editing my first few novels, though - writing out the scenes on index cards to shuffle them around. I'm thinking by my fourth novel or so I'll be able to skip that step since things won't need as much shuffling, and I'm okay with that. Right now my goal is a novel every two months and a short-thing (15k-25k) every two months, plus another novel in a different series every 6 months or so (write it in 10k-15k increments as a side project).


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> No. I like to put out crap.


Bazinga!


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

YodaRead said:


> People often ask me how I write so fast. I honestly believe it's because I outline. Now, I don't always follow my outlines. If I get into it and get a better idea I have no problem changing it. My outlines don't even flesh everything out. They're more like pacing beats and tidbits. It does help me to keep track of my story. Thanks to outlines I've finished four novels and two 25,000-word shorts since the beginning of January. I will finish another full WIP by Sunday. I didn't write today because I had to listen to and approve an audio book. When I was done, though, I put together five outlines. Yes. Five. I did three in one series and two in another. My hand hurts because I outline in notebooks by hand. It's because of outlines, though, that I will finish one book this week and start another next week. I honestly don't know how pantsers do it, but I give them a lot of credit. I would be lost without my outlines.


Did you see that book recommendation post earlier this week about "Take off your pants! Outline your books for better, faster writing." by Libbie Hawker? I also just picked up The Anatomy of Story by John Truby and I'm reading through that. Thrilling reads!



YodaRead said:


> No. I like to put out crap.


I like to put out crap as well, I hate that feeling you get in your stomach when you stop putting out crap.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

YodaRead said:


> No. I like to put out crap.


LOL!

I also groaned when I read about your prolific output, but I know enough genre and fiction writers who also have such a volume and in no way produce crap. I'm absolutely envious of them. I swear I have to sweat out every single word through my pores and it takes ages.

That said, outlines wouldn't help me. I know what happens in my stories, I have the outline stowed away. If I write it down in an abridged form I lose all enthusiasm for the story and won't finish it at all. It deflates.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

I don't believe in right brain left brain, but even if I did, I don't really see the division when it comes to outlining vs pantsing. Speaking as a reformed pantser, outlining is done in a huge creative rush of story, and the writing is a creative process of immersing myself in the characters. Analysis comes with editing.


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## Shiriluna Nott (Aug 26, 2014)

I've been doing this exact thing the past few weeks, and it's really helping me pick up my pace while I write. 

I'm a very slow writer (I edit as I go--I know, I know, bad!) and my average a few weeks ago was something like 400 words an hour. Now that I take 15 minutes to write out a detailed outline of every scene before I start to write it, I've found my hourly average has started to increase (still not super great, but more in the range of 650-700 words). 

For me, outlining has helped! My goal by the time the third book in my series is complete is to be up to 1,000 wph.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Nic said:


> LOL!
> 
> I also groaned when I read about your prolific output, but I know enough genre and fiction writers who also have such a volume and in no way produce crap. I'm absolutely envious of them. I swear I have to sweat out every single word through my pores and it takes ages.
> 
> That said, outlines wouldn't help me. I know what happens in my stories, I have the outline stowed away. If I write it down in an abridged form I lose all enthusiasm for the story and won't finish it at all. It deflates.


I have mystery elements in almost all of my books. The outlines also keep me on track for appropriate hints and red herrings. Those always have to be dropped in -- and at appropriate times.


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## ML-Larson (Feb 18, 2015)

Shiriluna Nott said:


> I've been doing this exact thing the past few weeks, and it's really helping me pick up my pace while I write.
> 
> I'm a very slow writer (I edit as I go--I know, I know, bad!) and my average a few weeks ago was something like 400 words an hour. Now that I take 15 minutes to write out a detailed outline of every scene before I start to write it, I've found my hourly average has started to increase (still not super great, but more in the range of 650-700 words).
> 
> For me, outlining has helped! My goal by the time the third book in my series is complete is to be up to 1,000 wph.


I used to be really bad about editing as I went. And then I got a tablet and a really cheap bluetooth keyboard that likes to type letters two or three times sometimes. I very quickly got into the habit of letting it, because I could easily spend 20 minutes of each hour backspacing to fix that stuff.



YodaRead said:


> I have mystery elements in almost all of my books. The outlines also keep me on track for appropriate hints and red herrings. Those always have to be dropped in -- and at appropriate times.


This is my experience as well. Foreshadowing has to be done with specific intent, and the only way to know how and went to do it is to know exactly what's going to happen throughout the entire story.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

When I start worrying about my output and how many words I write per day (let alone per hour), that's when the whole thing goes to buggery. Plotting, pantsing, whatever. I edit as I go, go over the entire book over and over again, but when the first draft is done, it goes to the editor the very next second.

I don't think I write very fast. Nowhere near 10k, 5k, or even 3k per DAY. Somehow, I published seven full length novels in 2014. As I said, the whole thing falls apart when I start to worry that I should somehow write MORE and MONITOR MY PROGRESS. So I don't. I think my output stacks up OK.


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## NoahPorter (Sep 15, 2013)

How long would you say your outlines are for a novel? Word or page-wise?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm playing with a new experiment -- I call it Xtreme Outlining. Basically writing the book completely before writing the book.

I started it because I have so much on my plate right now that I found my writing time for certain projects was getting squeezed.  A more detailed outline helps me get back into the story after a long break.  However, as I've been doing this, I've discovered a whole lot of benefits in terms of problem solving.

At the moment, it's still an experiment for "on the side" type stories -- and might be of interest to the part time writers out there -- but I think this might work for any type story with a tricksy plot (mystery thrillers, etc).  I might start using it more broadly.

(BTW: I'm neither a pantser or a plotter -- or perhaps I should say I'm both.  I normally use whatever technique works for the moment.)

Camille


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## Alyson (Apr 26, 2012)

NothingsShocking said:


> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?


Reading a YodaRead right now. Yes, it's good.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> I'm playing with a new experiment -- I call it Xtreme Outlining. Basically writing the book completely before writing the book.
> 
> I started it because I have so much on my plate right now that I found my writing time for certain projects was getting squeezed. A more detailed outline helps me get back into the story after a long break. However, as I've been doing this, I've discovered a whole lot of benefits in terms of problem solving.
> 
> ...


I'm considering doing the same.

My current novella trilogy is outlined, and so is my short erotica trilogy, but I can't help but think I can do better. I wrote only 2.3k words today, and I'd like to do more.

My main issue is that I edit as a go, which does slow me down.

I've also a problem with over-describing everything. This is especially bad for my erotica, considering I want it only at 5k words, yet it's already 25% done and the sex scene (I always write those first, I find it easiest) isn't done yet.

I wonder if outlining all the dialogue would help me. Maybe the actions too, though keep it simple, one or two lines (for the actions that is).

Thoughts? I have no hopes to ever be as a prolific writer as Yoda, but I'd certainly like to push myself more.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Navigator said:


> I'm considering doing the same.
> 
> My current novella trilogy is outline, and so is my short erotica trilogy, but I can't help but think I can do better. I wrote only 2.3k words today, and I'd like to do more.
> 
> ...


You might want to look into phase outlining? If I was going to pick a type of outlining to do, that's the one I'd do, I think. In fact, I might try that for my Camp project. It's like 'beats', but you throw in more dialogue, feelings, that sort of thing.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Navigator said:


> I'm considering doing the same.
> 
> My current novella trilogy is outlined, and so is my short erotica trilogy, but I can't help but think I can do better. I wrote only 2.3k words today, and I'd like to do more.
> 
> ...


There are two things to think about if you're going to go more extreme, I think.

One is -- do you like to re-read your work? In some ways, when you go with extreme outlining, you are getting deep into the story again and again. And if you are the sort who don't like to re-read what you've written, you are likely to have more trouble with "freshness" of the scene. For people like me, it can be like re-reading a favorite book. I can get into it thoroughly again.

And that leads me to the other element: for me, the extreme outlining is kind of like writing itself -- only faster and more pleasant. If I were just doing a pragmatic outline -- hammering out facts -- this could kill the fun. But that's not exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing something closer to exploratory writing and pantsing as I work through the story, going back and forth over the outline, just as I do as I write.

So it's really the same creative process. What I've changed is the need to get the prose down -- the language down -- early in the game. I'm developing the _story_ -- the characters, emotions and reactions, and the way they fit together -- rather than the voice. It's like.... playing the story. Like I did as a kid. Or like blocking out scenes when doing a play or movie.

I think by holding off on ANY writing until the outline is done, it will actually help the voice of the story -- because when I sit down to write it, I really will be able to concentrate on the voice (which is my favorite part of the actually prose writing).

In the meantime, I have found that what it really helps with is emotional pacing -- which is normally something I don't notice in an outline -- and I also have already fine tuned some things which normally would have been painful rewrites. For a mystery, this is important. How many times have I had to pull out of the story when I realized that I had a clue or an interaction in the wrong place -- but if I move it, it messes up so many other things? This is catching those things. Or the little frustrations which slow down writing, because I hadn't worked out some small detail -- one which isn't important to the emotional aspect of the scene, but I do have to KNOW to write the scene. (I.e. Is she on her way to work, or to the store? Do they find a gun, or a letter?)

I know from experience that doing this for bits of stories makes the writing faster -- I've just never done it for a whole story. I've never forbidden myself to write until things are completely ready before.

We'll see what happens.

Camille


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

daringnovelist said:


> Basically writing the book completely before writing the book.


A couple years ago I read a book by Elizabeth George on her process, and that's pretty much what she does. I can't remember if she gave page counts or percentages, but it sounded like her outline had to be 20-25% the length of the book.

I'm not speedy at all, but that has to do with how much time I spend with butt in chair, not whether or not I outline. One thing I notice every time we have this discussion, however, is that "outlining" is not a yes/no process when you talk to a bunch of writers. I see posts by people who say they're pantsers "except" for.... and then they describe as much of an outline as I start out with. Outliners vary from your extreme to those like me who start out with a sentence or two for each chapter. (As I go that usually develops to a sentence or two for each scene, and sometimes more for a complicated scene or a bit of dialog that has to serve several purposes).

Like a bunch of others, reading the thread on Libby's book made me buy it, but what she does is very different from what I do, and I can't see me adopting her system. So "outliners" covers a lot of variations. These days I use Scrivener, so I don't have pages of outline, but when I did, my initial outlines for a 90,000-115,000 novel ran from 3 to 5 pages of very short paragraphs with those couple of sentences for each chapter.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

elizabethsade said:


> You might want to look into phase outlining? If I was going to pick a type of outlining to do, that's the one I'd do, I think. In fact, I might try that for my Camp project. It's like 'beats', but you throw in more dialogue, feelings, that sort of thing.


Yes, I 've heard of it, and I usually do that in smaller ways when I am outlining. This is a little different in that...it's almost like world building. It's not so much doing the dialog or any of the actual writing. It's more about digging deeper into the things I normally gloss over.

For instance, I have a scene in which the heroine thinks someone is lurking out back of the cabin. It's a teaser, and a clue to later events. It really doesn't have to have much for it to drive the plot along, so normally I would just leave details like "what EXACTLY does she see or hear?" for my imagination when I get into the story. And it's a scene that could move forward a bunch of subplots.

And after many go-rounds, I find that it's a really important scene that needs a lot more to it. It solves great problems later one. But it took many go-rounds to get there. (I'm revising before writing -- which I kind of do anyway, but this is even more efficient.)

What I'm finding is that I'm avoiding the frustration of wrong choices. I'm "writing" the whole story, and running through it like a dress rehearsal (with much of the dialog being like the adults in a Charlie Brown special -- "Wa wa-wa wa wa wah") and realizing way earlier that I need to save this element for later, but I need to set this other element loose right here. Often things that were not at all obvious, until I ran through the story in detail a few times.

The only dialog or actual prose I do are when something really hangs on phrasing. For instance, my heroine has to completely misunderstand something in the opening. One of those things where the audience will probably get it, but I also need the audience to believe she wouldn't for at least a couple of chapters. So the exact phrasing of a comment is important. (And it's something that I might work on for several drafts of the outline.)

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

ellenoc said:


> I'm not speedy at all, but that has to do with how much time I spend with butt in chair, not whether or not I outline. One thing I notice every time we have this discussion, however, is that "outlining" is not a yes/no process when you talk to a bunch of writers. I see posts by people who say they're pantsers "except" for.... and then they describe as much of an outline as I start out with. Outliners vary from your extreme to those like me who start out with a sentence or two for each chapter. (As I go that usually develops to a sentence or two for each scene, and sometimes more for a complicated scene or a bit of dialog that has to serve several purposes).


Yes, I really do think that everybody can and does do more of either outlining or pantsing than they believe.

And for me, playing with more extreme outlining is a way of coping with when I don't have time. (or when I don't have time for a particular project.)

Camille


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

ML-Larson said:


> Foreshadowing has to be done with specific intent, and the only way to know how and went to do it is to know exactly what's going to happen throughout the entire story.


As a pantser, when I find I need foreshadowing earlier in the story, I go back and add it in. I'd hate to know what's going to happen before I even start writing. The fun part for me is finding out what happens as I go along.


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## JKata (Dec 9, 2014)

For those who do outlines, I'm assuming that it also cuts down on the amount of revisions you make. How long does it usually take you to revise?


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I've been trying outlining in some degree because I'm not finishing what I start for some reason. The outlining doesn't seem to help a lot either. I hate rereading what I've written, especially after it's been published. In the magazines my stories have appeared in, I've never read them again, not even in the magazine that published them, save one. My first published story in the US. I did read that one many years later and liked it.

Right now I'm trying a novella in Scrivener. I don't usually write in that program either, but figured I'd give it one more try.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> No. I like to put out crap.


You're my hero.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Justice Joy said:


> For those who do outlines, I'm assuming that it also cuts down on the amount of revisions you make. How long does it usually take you to revise?


I pants. I do one draft. I edit as I go. I hate wastage, and I rather write 1000 words a day if I know I'm going to keep them than 5000 a day that I know I have to revise.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> I pants. I do one draft. I edit as I go. I hate wastage, and I rather write 1000 words a day if I know I'm going to keep them than 5000 a day that I know I have to revise.


This is me, too, almost. I do a bit of revision, but it's more tightening and trimming than major changes.

Nice review of Fire & Ice in the blog-off, by the way. It's fun having bloggers looking at SP books and saying in surprised tones: hey, this is pretty good!


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> I'm exactly the same (apart from the pantsing). I have about 200 words from my latest that I've had to discard and it's p*ssed me off no end. I'm wondering whether I can crowbar them into another book.


LOL


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Question: At the risk of  p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?

Answer: They're not only good, they also sell like the wind. Talk about the proof and the pudding.

On my writing habits, I can't do a formal outline. But I can write a sentence or two for each scene telling me what's coming up. I only work about five chapters ahead, though, because my favorite part of each book is when I figure out who the murderer is! What fun! I'd hate to spoil that moment by planning too far in advance.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Sometimes I use outlines, sometimes I don't. It depends on my mood, the story, deadlines; anything and everything. Outlines get the job done, but they lose (for me) some of the excitement I get when pansting and just writing what the characters tell me. For example, I'm writing a sci-fi rom right now, and besides the initial idea, I haven't outlined. This has given me the flexibility to run with any ideas that crop up during each scene. Little things, like adding what might appear to be a minor detail, can later turn into a significant clue. It's exciting for me, as a writer, but it means I have more revising/editing to do when the first draft is finished. I write quicker with an outline, because I know where everything is going, but I do find this tends to stifle the organic imagination process. So, I usually outline a little, then pansts, then outline a bit more, then pansts. The deeper into a series I get, an outline becomes essential, simply because of all the plot-arcs.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

metwo said:


> I'd hate to spoil that moment by planning too far ahead.


^This^

Surprise in the writer, surprise in the reader.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

All writing involves discovery, and the recording of what you discover.

I personally feel outlining is more efficient, because whilr outlining you're paying attention to the overall arc of
entire books, plot and characters and how they are combined. And if one idea doesn't fit into the whole, you can immediately change
it, and come up with a replacement scenario that does. To me it's like a multi-dimensional Rubik's cube, with characters, plots, etc instead of colors.  

It's a lot easier to organize into a coherent pattern when not worrying about every little sensory detail of every scene.

When writing word for word, you have to pay attention to the minute details and chronology of what's happening.

While writing the first draft, us outliners know the overall story and how the current scene fits into the whole, so our minds 
are free to discover the minute, step by step details as they happen, and put them down at that point.

Pantsers hope the minute step by step details will add up in the end to a complete, satisfying story. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

I do agree you have to allow room for surprises. Sometimes characters refuse to do what your outline tells them to do.

I've heard pantsing explained as driving from New York to Los Angeles. You can do it even though you can only see what's immediately
ahead of you in the road. 

True, but first you have to know you want to go to Los Angeles. If you pay attention only to the read just ahead, you may never leave the Bronx. Or may meander up to Boston or south to Miami or get stuck in the middle of Pennsylvania.

However, it's also true people's minds work differently. Some pantsers evidently have the ability to create patterns on an unconscious
basis as they write the word for word details.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Richard Stooker said:


> I personally feel outlining is more efficient,[...]
> 
> I've heard pantsing explained as driving from New York to Los Angeles. You can do it even though you can only see what's immediately ahead of you in the road.
> 
> True, but first you have to know you want to go to Los Angeles. If you pay attention only to the read just ahead, you may never leave the Bronx. Or may meander up to Boston or south to Miami or get stuck in the middle of Pennsylvania.


I think for those writing to deadlines, or as a full-time job, efficiency is an important consideration. Personally, I feel that carefully outlined books sometimes feel a little too sparse. Everything is pared down to what's essential for the plot and character arcs. Whereas a pantsed book has more time to smell the roses. That's my impression, anyway.

As for knowing you want to go to Los Angeles - I'd rather meander and see where the story takes me. It might be Los Angeles or it might be Boston. If I _know _ I have to get to LA, then the twists and turns along the way will feel forced. I like to let the characters decide which way they want to turn at each intersection, and then, wherever they end up, it feels logical because their decisions led them there. If that makes any sense.

But there's no right or wrong way. If it works, it's the right way. And as someone may have said upthread, probably pantsers do more plotting than they realise and outliners do more pantsing than they realise, too.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

If you want to use the LA metaphor...

If I need to go to LA, there is a direct flight from here. It takes 17 hours and is as boring as hell  Moreover, there are really no alternative routes.

Some time back, someone here made the point that pantsers and plotters are not that different. Just the pantsers tend to keep the outline in their heads. I certainly do, and in general I don't start a book until I know where I want the character to be at the end, and know a couple of key points along the way. I could write this down and call myself a plotter [insert devil smiley]


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

Yoda may I be your apprentice?


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

I always outline first. It gives me a roadmap i can follow, and deviate from when needed. It's a great way of fleshing out the story and world before you dive in blind. It means I can never get stuck during the process of writing a first draft, as I already have a back up answer. I basically treat writing the beats as a pre-draft.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I so wish I could outline. But when I've tried it, I lose the momentum for the book - as soon as it's out there, it starts going stale and if I know what's going to happen, I get no joy from writing it. Plus, I'd lose the connect with my subconscious, which right now drops my red herrings in at the right moment all by itself! I write stuff and I have no idea why it's there, but I trust my subconscious to know that when the moment comes, all will be revealed - and it usually is. Pretentious, yes - but it works for me.


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## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

I outline in my head as I find anything written down is too restrictive.

Like everything else in writing, there's no right or wrong way - just what works for you.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I look on outlining as a tool. If it produces for you, then use it. If it doesn't do ya, then don't.

The fastest thing that I write was without an outline. I pumped out 2k words an hour for two hours. That's about as fast as I can type. The quality was meh. I do better at 1k per hour. I only write for an hour at a time, so I get to think about the next 1k as the day goes by. I usually have an idea of where I want the next 10k words to go, so call that a mental outline.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

ellenoc said:


> Like a bunch of others, reading the thread on Libby's book made me buy it, but what she does is very different from what I do, and I can't see me adopting her system. So "outliners" covers a lot of variations. These days I use Scrivener, so I don't have pages of outline, but when I did, my initial outlines for a 90,000-115,000 novel ran from 3 to 5 pages of very short paragraphs with those couple of sentences for each chapter.


I bought Libby's book and read it, too, but I'm waiting to review it until I've gotten a chance to really apply the method. Her approach is also very different from mine, but for me that's a good thing, because I'm hoping that it will help address some of the weak points in my writing which my past approaches haven't cracked.



Patty Jansen said:


> If you want to use the LA metaphor...
> 
> If I need to go to LA, there is a direct flight from here. It takes 17 hours and is as boring as hell  Moreover, there are really no alternative routes.


There is an alternate route -- I know people who've sailed it, but that takes months. Long, boring, months interspersed with moments of sheer terror.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2015)

YodaReads, I have a feeling you have a very firm grasp on story structure and have found your sweet spot and that is how you can outline and write swiftly. Plus I suspect you are very comfortable with your voice and style of writing and are able to get out of your own way in order to write. 

Am I correct?

And I too, would like to see an outline example since I write outlines after I write...


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## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

Yoda, you're awesome! I also outline, partially because I read about you doing them. I used to be a pantser, and I don't know how I managed. my output has tripled easily thanks to them.

this is what I do now:

•	Ch1 –clyde
o	Retires from navy
o	Heart problem
•	Ch2 –bonnie
o	Librarian
o	Meets clyde
•	Ch3 – clyde
o	Goes to store to get clothes
o	Stays for lunch

just that is enough to get me to spit out a lot and my novels are more cohesive. I also found that if I edit everything I did the previous day before I start writing, I go a lot faster as well. I've written 4 novels so far this year. They're horrible, FYI.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Yoda, what are the names of some of your books?  I would love to check them out.  Thanks in advance.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I echo the value of outlining. I work faster and finish things when I outline. When I pants I start off hot and then sort of dribble off because there are no signposts or guides to follow. I slow way way down when pantsing and I can't afford to write slow.

I experimented in January with just pantsing story openings and scene openings and chapter openings, to get a better feel for faster and more effective starts to things. Had fun with it, but the thirty-odd openings I have are pants practice and probably won't go anywhere. Glad I did it though, because it reminded me of the value of outlining. So I went back to outlining in February and outlined the first two novels in a new series, wrote them, and then kept going with the series. Just finished book 5 on Sunday and am working on the outline now for book 6.

As for the revision question, I do one draft and one revision. I write pretty clean copy and with the outlines, I don't have to do much major fixing. The main things I'll be adding in the revision is more texture in terms of detail, a voice pass to make sure all the characters sound consistent, and, since I'm working on a series, I can plant some foreshadowing in the earlier books to set up stuff in the later books. There's a certain advantage in starting a new series and having a lot of books in the works at the same time. I think it'll make the first chunk of the series really cohesive, and that's something I don't think I could have done without an outline.

Oh, and for those interested--my outline process uses Scrivener cards on the virtual corkboard. I start with a 15-card outline and grow the book as needed. One card per chapter (though I've started to move to one card per scene lately) and I write a sentence or two about that scene or chapter. Big picture stuff with some details as needed. I take that basic outline and sit down and hammer out the draft, using the sentence or two as a guideline. If I go off the rails into new territory, and it works, I'll revise the card to fit. This keeps me flexible in writing the prose and not chained to an outline.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

NothingsShocking said:


> Writing is supposed to be a somewhat slow process, not where you just churn out stuff like a monkey at a keyboard.


Man, this myth just won't die.

Writing is supposed to be whatever works for the writer. What works for one writer may not work for another.


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## Genre Hoarder (Oct 4, 2014)

I pantsed my way through two novels and ten novellas and it made me question my decision to write full-time. It was incredibly difficult for me. I found myself having to reread everything that I wrote to remind myself of who, what, and where. It was incredibly time-consuming and frustrating. Finally, I came to my senses and studied various outlining processes. Alexandra Sokoloff's books and blog saved me from myself. My production rate has sky-rocketed and writing no longer feels like work. 

Outlining convert here!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Justice Joy said:


> For those who do outlines, I'm assuming that it also cuts down on the amount of revisions you make. How long does it usually take you to revise?


Like others -- I do almost no revision after I finish the draft. I revise as I go, revise in my head or on paper. I'm doing outlines to make the writing itself go faster.

Someone further up talked about how pantsers put in foreshadowing---

As I said, I am a person who does both pantsing and plotting, and I can say for certain that you actually can do anything when "pantsing" it that you can when plotting. As you write you tend to put in details that you don't know why -- you're just filling out the scene and writing in the kinds of things that could lead to something else. And as it develops, your brain acts like a reader and says, "hey remember that duck in the first scene, this would be a great time to bring it back."

You can, literally, change your mind on who the killer is when you get to the revelation, and it still works. (Although usually, when I "Pants" a story, I know what everybody is up to, it's just that I don't plan where they go from where they start.)

The only problem I have with pantsing that sort of thing is that those sort of foreshadowing details, and the intricate weaving of set up and pay off -- isn't very _dense_ in a pants-ed story. You don't have a layers upon layers of it. Most stories don't need that, but that's what I'm interested in just now. I've been writing long enough that the kind of stories I can write by the seat of my pants kinda bore me (not to read, but to write).

Oddly enough, I do find that going for the "Xtreme Outling" thing, I'm getting a lot of the freshness and playful experience of pantsing it. This is because the outlining IS the writing -- it's like the discovery draft.

(Hmmm, you know I wrote a blog post about the sort of intricate twisting and weaving I like to work into stories. Twisting Your Contrivances.)

Camille


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

My outlines are pretty simple. An example of one I did yesterday for a paranormal mystery would include:

Five
H and J meet everyone at the party. Highlight small conversations with at least five different people -- including Janet.

Twelve
H and Janet have discussion. H sees her talking to one of the maids. Dinner is served. Entertaining conversation.

Eighteen
Janet's past is exposed. H and J decide whether they should confront her or go straight to Josh.

Twenty-Four
Paul's explanation of Janet's actions don't make sense. J catches Paul in a lie. Things start to shift into place.

I obviously didn't post all the in-between stuff that highlights other characters. It's just a through line so I can make sure Janet is introduced because she plays big in the finale, etc. I don't ever go into large detail, but I do highlight what has to be hit in each chapter. That allows me to let conversations go where they want to go -- and even discover other fun things as I write.


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## 67499 (Feb 4, 2013)

Yoda is the greatest but I’m with Patty and the Pantsers – I admire outliners for their self-organizing ability but, if I outline a story, then the story is told and dead and I can’t write it.  So I pants.  But I also believe a story is made to cohere in the editing, so I edit, re-edit, edit again, heavily.  I vote for manic editing rather than outlining/pantsing as the key to getting what you want from a story.

PS:  Wish I were smart enough to figure out who Yoda is so I can read some of her stuff, which I suspect based on reading her posts is excellent (hint  hint).


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> I pants. I do one draft. I edit as I go. I hate wastage, and I rather write 1000 words a day if I know I'm going to keep them than 5000 a day that I know I have to revise.


I generally only do one draft, too, and I edit as I go. However, if I get into a later chapter and realize I want to add something that I didn't address earlier, instead of going back in the chapter file I make a note in my outline and tackle it when I'm going through the big edit before I send it off to an editor. I write it by hand in a different color ink and then I know that I have to add a few beats in chapter three about so-and-so, and I need to make sure I touch on the family dynamics in chapter five, etc.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Princess Charming said:


> YodaReads, I have a feeling you have a very firm grasp on story structure and have found your sweet spot and that is how you can outline and write swiftly. Plus I suspect you are very comfortable with your voice and style of writing and are able to get out of your own way in order to write.
> 
> Am I correct?
> 
> And I too, would like to see an outline example since I write outlines after I write...


I think I have a firm grasp on story structure (although I'm sure some people would disagree). I've also found that my first instinct is often my best instinct. The first book I ever finished I went through and edited and changed things so many times and &#8230; honestly? I think that's my worst book. I've learned so much since then. I will also say that I've learned to ignore certain "rules" and do what I want to do without second-guessing myself all the time. You can never break the HEA or HFN rule in romance (or the cheating), but I do not follow the rules in cozy mysteries and I know that drives a few other cozy mystery writers I'm friends with crazy. According to them you can't deal with certain crimes. It almost always has to be murder, but that irritates me. I've dealt with child trafficking, gang rape, steroid abuse, a dude cutting up his wife's body and trying to hide it in the house, etc. I don't follow those rules. I don't put cats on my covers. My characters are extremely snarky and they don't knit or do other crafts. They don't bake. There's talk of pot. There's drinking and stupid outings while drunk, etc. There's lots of talk about sex. I know my stuff isn't for everyone (and I've heard from people who think I'm going to Hell), but the people who like my stuff seem to like it. It's doing well for me.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> As for the revision question, I do one draft and one revision. I write pretty clean copy and with the outlines, I don't have to do much major fixing. The main things I'll be adding in the revision is more texture in terms of detail, a voice pass to make sure all the characters sound consistent, and, since I'm working on a series, I can plant some foreshadowing in the earlier books to set up stuff in the later books. There's a certain advantage in starting a new series and having a lot of books in the works at the same time. I think it'll make the first chunk of the series really cohesive, and that's something I don't think I could have done without an outline.


I agree. I wrote three outlines in a new series for my pen name that I won't even start writing until later this summer last night. By the third book, I came across tidbits that I wanted to implement in the first outline, and since I hadn't written anything yet all I had to do to implement them was go back into the earlier outlines and write them in. They were more character quirks than anything, but I want to be consistent. I hate it when stuff "pops" up in later books in a series that never happened in earlier books but we're just supposed to believe it. Sometimes that's inevitable, but I try to cut down on it as much as possible.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Steven Hardesty said:


> Yoda is the greatest but I'm with Patty and the Pantsers -- I admire outliners for their self-organizing ability but, if I outline a story, then the story is told and dead and I can't write it. So I pants. But I also believe a story is made to cohere in the editing, so I edit, re-edit, edit again, heavily. I vote for manic editing rather than outlining/pantsing as the key to getting what you want from a story.
> 
> PS: Wish I were smart enough to figure out who Yoda is so I can read some of her stuff, which I suspect based on reading her posts is excellent (hint  hint).


I sent you a PM.

The story is never dead for me because my outlines are very basic. I like the exploration of having the outline but letting the characters have fun. I don't edit heavily. I flesh some stuff out, and I tweak. Editing is my least favorite part of the job, though. I love writing. I love outlining. I love covers. Editing makes me want to yank my hair out.


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## Peter Spenser (Jan 26, 2012)

NothingsShocking said:


> At the risk of p*ss ing you off [&#8230;] Writing is supposed to be a somewhat slow process, not where you just churn out stuff like a monkey at a keyboard.


Wow! I thought _I_ was the one who, intentionally or not, generally posted the most provocative responses. I haven't even come _close_ to this.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

When I started writing years ago, with a thought to publication, I was a total pantser. I had no idea what happened when I sat down to write the novel, only a theme, a couple of characters and maybe an inciting incident. I wrote blindly and stuff happened and I seemed to always stall about four or five chapters in. What happens next? I had no idea. I didn't know what the end would be. I was like some others who have posted already. I discovered what happened next through writing. So I had a lot of novels that were 1/3 written because I lost steam and didn't know what to do next.

Then I got serious about publishing. I wanted to actually FINISH something, so I started to try to outline in a really bare bones way -- just the beginning inciting incident, the main complication and the end. Eg. Elizabeth and Darcy meet at ______. They have an instant physical attraction, but end up disliking each other due to a misunderstanding. They slowly come to realize they were wrong after each person faces a crisis and the other learns they are more than they first thought. They figure out the truth and end up together, in love and engaged.  WHAM! You have a bare-bones P&P plot structure with the hook and the HEA. Then I sit down each day and think of what will happen in the next scene and the next etc. on the way to each big event. Meeting. Catastrophe 1. Separation and angst. Catastrophe 2. Revelation. Reunion. Commitment. THE END. I pants in between each of those big beats so that I have some real creative moments when I explore the characters, settings and story. 

For me, and YMMV, it's the best of both worlds and helps the writing. You still have to sit butt in chair and actually write consistently, whether you are a pantser, a plotter or some mix.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

> I personally feel outlining is more efficient, because whilr outlining you're paying attention to the overall arc of entire books, plot and characters and how they are combined. And if one idea doesn't fit into the whole, you can immediately change it, and come up with a replacement scenario that does. To me it's like a multi-dimensional Rubik's cube, with characters, plots, etc instead of colors.


A wise man once told me, "Try not to think too much and just listen."

The subconscious mind can write incredible works of fiction, even if most of it is unknown at the time of the writing.



> True, but first you have to know you want to go to Los Angeles. If you pay attention only to the read just ahead, you may never leave the Bronx. Or may meander up to Boston or south to Miami or get stuck in the middle of Pennsylvania.


The wrong path can lead you to the right one. Of course, isn't that what the journey is all about?

The point in space I'm trying to reach is often all I need to create a work of fiction.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

YodaRead said:


> ... I've also found that my first instinct is often my best instinct....


This is the most important thing: KNOW THYSELF.

I have found that we can always benefit from acquiring more rounded skills -- by learning to do better the things we don't do well -- but... If we're talking universal rules here, then the best way to do things is the way YOU do things best.

That said, I do think that dyed-in-the-wool pantsers or plotters could gain something by doing at least a small experiment once in a while in the opposite way of writing. But odds are the results won't be something you want to show people.

Camille


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

> The story is never dead for me because my outlines are very basic.


It sounds like a sketch vs. a blueprint.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

> Then I got serious about publishing. I wanted to actually FINISH something, so I started to try to outline in a really bare bones way -- just the beginning inciting incident, the main complication and the end. Eg. Elizabeth and Darcy meet at ______. They have an instant physical attraction, but end up disliking each other due to a misunderstanding. They slowly come to realize they were wrong after each person faces a crisis and the other learns they are more than they first thought. They figure out the truth and end up together, in love and engaged. WHAM! You have a bare-bones P&P plot structure with the hook and the HEA. Then I sit down each day and think of what will happen in the next scene and the next etc. on the way to each big event. Meeting. Catastrophe 1. Separation and angst. Catastrophe 2. Revelation. Reunion. Commitment. THE END. I pants in between each of those big beats so that I have some real creative moments when I explore the characters, settings and story.


People keep telling me that even though I don't outline, a five-minute summary would work wonders. It sounds like that's what you're doing here, and to great effect.

Changing one's habits to include a summary phase is what's difficult for me. I tend to jump right into the story.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

elizabethsade said:


> You might want to look into phase outlining? If I was going to pick a type of outlining to do, that's the one I'd do, I think. In fact, I might try that for my Camp project. It's like 'beats', but you throw in more dialogue, feelings, that sort of thing.


Never heard of Phase outlining before, but after reading about it earlier today I've decided to give it a try. Perhaps mix it with writing down the dialogue like I posted about in my first reply as well.

I'm going to be redoing what I've already got done in my short 5k erotica story today. Lets see if outlining it even more helps. I'll let ya'll know how it goes!!

Also, thanks for all the great advice.


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Outline... yes, totally.
Your word count... [email protected]$%^

Sometimes it's hard to hear when someone can churn out sooo many words in a day. I used to be like, WTF that's impossible!!!! But I got to thinking about it a few years back, and I realized there are some really gifted people out there. You can see them in many different fields: sports, music, physics, engineering, etc... why shouldn't it be the same with writing? The thought makes it easier for me to swallow when I'm looking at my measly 700 to 1500 words a day, lol, but when I see stuff like this I still feel like a total slacker.

So I'm patting you on the back Yoda, while giving you a dirty look filled with jealousy.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Navigator said:


> Never heard of Phase outlining before, but after reading about it earlier today I've decided to give it a try. Perhaps mix it with writing down the dialogue like I posted about in my first reply as well.
> 
> I'm going to be redoing what I've already got done in my short 5k erotica story today. Lets see if outlining it even more helps. I'll let ya'll know how it goes!!
> 
> Also, thanks for all the great advice.


I'm a pantser currently for my novels (which has created a lot of fun things to fix when they're done, but I think that's more because it's my first and second novel, respectively), but I'm giving phase outlining a try - starting with a small series of short stories. Testing the waters, so to speak. I think it'll help give me some more confidence in outlining and realize that it doesn't have to constrain my creativity. So. We'll see!

But out of all of them, I like phase outlining the best because you can mix in emotions and feelings. Since I write a lot of character-driven romance, how the characters feel in a scene is basically what decides what happens next, so knowing that is important to me (and my writing).


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

I outline. A lot. It is the only way I finished my first book years ago and all the subsequent ones I've written except for a short story I did last year (you pantsters are so encouraging I experimented) and it was a miserable experience - I spent much more time pondering what happens next and alternative paths the character could take than I do when I have an outline. It takes me some time up front to outline but I get that time back while writing. I also find that while the outline carries the frame of the story, it frees me for hanging any ligament ideas I get while writing and frees my creative story telling for the in-scene impulses. I tend to outline a whole series when I do it so that I get a lot more out of the endeavor.

I use xmind.net to do my outlines and export to a text file that I paste into libreoffice.org to write, erasing the outline notes as I go forward. The outlines are filled with a range of ideas from sketchy notes like "they fall in a pit" to a bit of raw dialog that I only add quotes and punctuation and in-scene moves/description/attribution later. Two recent examples are attached below. The first is the Zombie series I'm currently writing (the first 3 books are published plus two I'm writing). The second is the 'capstone trilogy' to my existing 4 book Epic Fantasy series - it's bigger than the Zombie story ... "Epic" even? That project is up next when I'm done with the Zombies.

I still may pantster a project sometime soon. Maybe it will be easier with the next project and more experience?


















_Edited to shrink image to accommodate those using mobile devices or older monitors. Thanks for understanding. --Betsy_


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

YodaRead said:


> No. I like to put out crap.


I'll say what no one else will say. Well not everyone.

We are all green with envy, greener than Yoda himself (herself) 

hehe, how many million words per day? J/K! I think Yoda here may be like the Michael Jordan of writing.

Again... ENVY


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> I generally only do one draft, too, and I edit as I go. However, if I get into a later chapter and realize I want to add something that I didn't address earlier, instead of going back in the chapter file I make a note in my outline and tackle it when I'm going through the big edit before I send it off to an editor. I write it by hand in a different color ink and then I know that I have to add a few beats in chapter three about so-and-so, and I need to make sure I touch on the family dynamics in chapter five, etc.


I drop everything, go back and actually do it on the spot while I'm in the mood and I remember why again this needed to be added right there. I've written so many notes where the next day all I could do was stare at them and go WTF?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


Oh man, this you-must-write-slow-to-write-well stuff just never gets old!

I lied, it really does.

Everyone should do what works best for them. No one way is superior or inferior to the other. I get just as surprised by plot twists as a pantser, but my twists appear most often during outlining instead of deep in the prose. Same difference, different timing.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Hey fair enough.  But 5000 words a day, every day, completely edited?  Cormac McCarthy could learn a thing or two.


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## A Tiger (Aug 29, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> Hey fair enough. But 5000 words a day, every day, completely edited? Cormac McCarthy could learn a thing or two.


I'm not a groupie or anything, but this is getting sad. If you don't believe her, disregard the advice and move on. Whatever the case, a person must always find for him/herself what personally fits.


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## Holland d&#039;Haas (Mar 11, 2015)

NothingsShocking said:


> Hey fair enough. But 5000 words a day, every day, completely edited? Cormac McCarthy could learn a thing or two.


I'd like to put it out there that a superior typist can get 5k done in an hour without much issue; it's just a matter of understanding what you want to write at that point, which outlining can help immensely with. (If you want to see some crazy word counts and their writers, lurk around the "Beyond 50k" forum on the Nanowrimo site. There are some great pantsers there as well.)

But just because you can doesn't mean you should. Everyone has their skills and preferences.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Oh! Are we approaching a 'pics or it didn't happen' moment?


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## Holland d&#039;Haas (Mar 11, 2015)

a_g said:


> Oh! Are we approaching a 'pics or it didn't happen' moment?


I think that'd be an interesting video, actually - a timelapse of a writer putting their manuscript together with a clock visible at all times.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

I know who Yoda is... Many peeps do. I'd never out a fellow-writer, but I'd like to vouch that she speaketh the truth. She has massive output, her books are very-well done, and I'd love to have her rankings/sales.  

(Not that she needs validating, but for those who are skeptical  ...)


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Niles said:


> I don't know. I very much doubt that I'd find anything written that quickly even passably well-crafted ... by my own definition of 'well-crafted.' But I also very much doubt that that's the operative definition here.


I am of the opinion, if it matters, that _Thank you, Jeeves_ is one of the most beautifully crafted books of all time. I've never seen Wodehouse, for all his prodigious writing output (not only his 90 novels) accused of being not "even passably well-crafted", by anyone's opinion.

I can't write that fast. But I admire people who do, and I don't assume lack of craftpersonship because they have confidence in their output and voice.



PaulineMRoss said:


> Personally, I feel that carefully outlined books sometimes feel a little too sparse. Everything is pared down to what's essential for the plot and character arcs. Whereas a pantsed book has more time to smell the roses. That's my impression, anyway.


How do you _know_ if a book is outlined or pantsed?

This time around, I am carefully outlining. I have a Scrivener card and two sets of notes dependent notes reminding me of what the scene should be achieving structure/character wise in Scrivener for each scene.

The outline tells me what _needs_ to happen. Texture, minor themes, characterisation, conversation--they emerge during the writing process, when you immerse yourself in the scene. Having an outline doesn't prevent you from surprising yourself and exploring, it gives you the freedom to do so while knowing you won't muck up the book overall.

Some people write sparsely, some people write with a lot (too much?) of detail. I don't think outlining vs pantsing is the real difference. I'm finding only difference between outlining this book (and my last novelette) and outlining this one is that a)I progress faster, because I have confidence in where it's going and b) hopefully I won't need to spend so much time restructuring and rebalancing afterwards, because every scene has its place and intention.


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## JavierCabrera (Jul 21, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> People often ask me how I write so fast. I honestly believe it's because I outline. Now, I don't always follow my outlines. If I get into it and get a better idea I have no problem changing it. My outlines don't even flesh everything out. They're more like pacing beats and tidbits. It does help me to keep track of my story. Thanks to outlines I've finished four novels and two 25,000-word shorts since the beginning of January. I will finish another full WIP by Sunday. I didn't write today because I had to listen to and approve an audio book. When I was done, though, I put together five outlines. Yes. Five. I did three in one series and two in another. My hand hurts because I outline in notebooks by hand. It's because of outlines, though, that I will finish one book this week and start another next week. I honestly don't know how pantsers do it, but I give them a lot of credit. I would be lost without my outlines.


Can you like us to some of your works? I'm curious! ;-)


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Niles said:


> I outline. Then I write. I revise on screen twice, usually. Then on paper. Then I send to my first readers, all three of whom always have comments. I revise according to the ones that make sense. Then it goes out. My current series, a quite impressive editor had some interesting feedback, that I thought would strengthen the story. I rewrote for those. Then the book sold. The acquiring editor did an edit. I rewrote for that. Then it's just copyediting. This is for an MG, so a rather short book. I'd say I spent five weeks revising, though that's just a guess.


Have you tried not revising so much? I used to do multiple edits (like, way too many, as many as ten). Now, I pants one draft (at 2400 word/hr avg), do a single edit, then publish it. I'm making five figures a month, so people don't seem to mind or even notice a difference.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


In my experience there are fast writers and slow writers. Speed has little to do with the quality. I know some amazing authors who churn out words at an unbelievable rate. Some do it consistently. Some write in sprints of massive output. Everyone's process is different. Fast does not equal low quality any more than slow equates to a good book.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Also, while I do think an outline can help many people achieve a higher word per day output, they aren't for everyone.

If I outline, that is it. I have a nice outline for a book I never write. So again, everyone has to find what works for them.  Studies show that pantsers and outliners have a fundamentally different process. Some people can work either way. For some of us, it is more productive to work one way or the other.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

What I want to know is: Does anyone do outlines for outlines?  

Yoda, where can peeps buy your books?––or is this a moot point?

Cheers,

K


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

funthebear said:


> Have you tried not revising so much? I used to do multiple edits (like, way too many, as many as ten). Now, I pants one draft (at 2400 word/hr avg), do a single edit, then publish it. I'm making five figures a month, so people don't seem to mind or even notice a difference.


I think this is a matter of skill and comfort level? Right now I'm a prawn (two novels drafted, editing the first while the other sits since I just finished it last night) and a third in the works, plus some short things - and I know I'm going to do a lot more edits on them now than I will my fifth, sixth, seventh novels? Because I'll get better that them over time. I'm still going to do a couple edits - computer (one or two), paper, speech to text, that sort of thing - but the time spent editing and the errors found while editing will eventually stabilize, I think.


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

I'm basically a pantser, with an "outline" in my head. I find I write too damn slow.

My current work-in-progress has been floundering for awhile. This thread has inspired me to try and outline the rest of it, or at least the next few chapters, and see if I can get my output to increase.

Wish me luck!


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

I've written one novel ever and that was written 17 months ago. It was also the one and last time I outlined a novel. The outlining had nothing to do with finishing a novel after 37 years of failures, because the only scenes left from the outline where the beginning and the end and the end happened in a completely different location to the outline version. The main character also had a completely different character to that envisioned in the outline. 

The only reason that I outlined was because of the NaNoWriMo rules about not writing a word until 1st Nov. and I'll never outline again because for me its a waste of time. That ignored outline did not slow me down. After 37 years of waiting I wrote a complete novel in 25 days. A refusal to outline ever again has nothing to do with my zero output since, but is connected to the non-fiction project you see as my avatar, a temporarily abandoned 16k part novel from NaNoWriMo 2014 and a lot of health problems. Of course it is all about the diversity of human minds and there being such wonderful variety of thinking, learning, teaching, and writing styles. It is not surprising that I can write without an outline when I have given a two hour lecture with just three short sentences of notes in front of me. It's just the way my brain is wired.

My discovery method (pants are underwear where I come from) is write a chapter look at what has poured out of my brain, review it and ask if that is really the direction I want the novel to go it, say yes that'll be fun, and write the next chapter on the basis of the story so far. Note that at the end of the novel very little was rewritten apart from typos, it falls out of my brain complete and without an outline. Hopefully once the next round of paperback formatting is done in April I can get back to discovering a novel or discovering how my part written 16k and 19k novels end.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

> Have you tried not revising so much? I used to do multiple edits (like, way too many, as many as ten). Now, I pants one draft (at 2400 word/hr avg), do a single edit, then publish it. I'm making five figures a month, so people don't seem to mind or even notice a difference.


The Eight Hour Fiction Challenge helped me realize that I was performing one too many editing passes. Now my process is very similar to yours, but I'm not making five figures. Four figures isn't anything to complain about, though.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,  I'd like to point out that many authors here post under a pseudonym and do not have their books linked in their signature.  Repeated requests that they reveal their identity are not appropriate.  Let's move on on the topic of YodaRead's books.

I appreciate her sharing her process; if her post seems to have value to you, try it for yourself.  As has been said, no one method works for everyone.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I've taken a story that I started the other day and am making an outline in Scrivener. Hopefully this holds. My index cards are coloured with day, night, character, scene, chapter and a small amount of text that steers me in the right direction. I would think this will take most of tomorrow to complete, then we'll see about the actual writing. I've already started the story, but want to see if the outline will bore me or can I actually move with the story.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Dave Dykema said:


> I'm basically a pantser, with an "outline" in my head. I find I write too damn slow.
> 
> My current work-in-progress has been floundering for awhile. This thread has inspired me to try and outline the rest of it, or at least the next few chapters, and see if I can get my output to increase.
> 
> Wish me luck!


One way to transition from pantser to plotter mode: start by blathering out the outline in your head. Get it down and in fixed form -- but you don't have to refer to it again if you don't feel the need.

What I find sometimes works (when I'm in pantser mode but need to have more thinking ahead) is that I take that document where I "outlined" what I thought I was going to do, and treat it like a blog. The next day, I type a row of asterisks across the page and put my latest ideas ABOVE the old ones. I scroll down only if I need to refer to something. Every so often, I will re-outline the whole thing (or major parts of it) at the top of the doc. That way I keep all my notes and thoughts, but I don't feel the pressure to go down and look at the rest.

That said, this Xtreme Outlining (where I revise the outline and plump it up over and over -- and not write a single word on the story until it's done) is working better for me, but I don't know if this is good for the first go around with outlining -- unless you're writing something short.

Camille


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## Holland d&#039;Haas (Mar 11, 2015)

I enjoy outlining, but I end up getting too engrossed in the outline if I go beyond (at most) a sentence per chapter. By the time writing the actual book comes around, the story has already fulfilled me to the point where I feel no need to write it.

I wouldn't say outlining makes me write faster or slower, but having something down on paper before I write definitely keeps me on the right track and avoids the revision/rewrite "but what if this happened instead!" bug I tend to get.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

The phrase that makes me feel cynical is "churning out".  This phrase seems to be bandied around a lot when people talk about writing high word counts every day.

I'm not I would be happy to "churn out" stuff like a factory in Vietnam making fake sports shirts. I'm sure the writers that write at high volume feel they are not churning out books but the phrase is often - nearly always - used in relation to this.

I prefer crafted, to churned out.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

NothingsShocking--

There's no requirement that you or anyone else write at a high volume, word-count wise.  It works for some and not for others, as has been pointed out quite civilly by several in this thread.

If crafting works better for you as a description of your process, that's fine.  I think people are allowed to describe their own process their own way.


Betsy


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

Holland d'Haas said:


> I'd like to put it out there that a superior typist can get 5k done in an hour without much issue; it's just a matter of understanding what you want to write at that point, which outlining can help immensely with. (If you want to see some crazy word counts and their writers, lurk around the "Beyond 50k" forum on the Nanowrimo site. There are some great pantsers there as well.)
> 
> But just because you can doesn't mean you should. Everyone has their skills and preferences.


Hey,

Speaking of those 50k forums does anyone know if the Clancy vs King contest was real or not? Something I think I read about them seeing who could write the most over 1 week or something like that? I'm trying to remember if I read it or only think I read that.

The other thing is that recently I just read King's "On Writing" and he doesn't mention the fact that again, I thought I read where he was quoted as saying an author's first million words are just practice.

Can anyone enlighten this bottom hugging prawn?

Thanks,
SM


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> The phrase that makes me feel cynical is "churning out". This phrase seems to be bandied around a lot when people talk about writing high word counts every day.
> 
> I'm not I would be happy to "churn out" stuff like a factory in Vietnam making fake sports shirts. I'm sure the writers that write at high volume feel they are not churning out books but the phrase is often - nearly always - used in relation to this.
> 
> I prefer crafted, to churned out.


Many of us on the community would agree with you on the word 'churn' to describe writing, especially at speed. Others aren't bothered by the word or its negative connotations.

However, in this thread, you were the first one to use it and it was used in a derogatory manner.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

A few people have read Yoda's books. Is there s club I have to join to find out who she so I can try them? I've been wanting to for some time now.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Well, I wrote 4,800 words today, which is more than I've ever written in a single day.

I really like Phase outlining now and plan on doing it for all current and future projects. It's made writing so much easier and more enjoyable as well. If it weren't for a bunch of long distractions I had today, I'm sure I could have reached at least 6k words.

I pantsted my first trilogy and vowed to never, ever, do that again.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I craft books. At a high rate of speed. 

Outlines are my savior. Without my outlines, I'd be far, far slower and probably write messier, less tightly plotted books.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

D.L. Shutter said:


> A few people have read Yoda's books. Is there s club I have to join to find out who she so I can try them? I've been wanting to for some time now.


Ask her? A lot of us don't like giving out our pen names. I don't even tell people I know in real life any of mine, unless they're close friends.

If you're just wondering if people like her books, then I can confirm like several others that, based on the ranks of her books, the sales numbers she's mentioned in the past aren't exaggerated.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Sorry I missed all the fun today. I was writing  . I also had to put up another audio book this evening so that can go into production in a few weeks. For edification purposes, I wrote five chapters today. It was close to 13,000 words, though. I just finished about a half hour ago (then I went to Wild Berry and ordered some incense). I also ran errands today (Wal-Mart, the liquor store).
To prove outlines aren't infallible, I ended up combining two chapters because to do otherwise didn't make sense in the narrative once I was in it. Ironically, I had added a chapter earlier in the book that I never planned, so things are back on track. I have ten chapters to finish, and I need to do it by Sunday. I predict I finish on Saturday. I have another book to start Monday. I will get it done, though. Then, next week, I'll write an entire romantic suspense book in seven days. I've done it before (about eight times now). Then I will edit two books the following week and not do any writing. I never give up. I never surrender. Luckily, I like my work. Oh, I also worked on covers today for a trilogy (an addendum to a series that finishes this year) that won't even start being written until after the first of the year. It's been a long day.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> Sorry I missed all the fun today. I was writing . I also had to put up another audio book this evening so that can go into production in a few weeks. For edification purposes, I wrote five chapters today. It was close to 13,000 words, though. I just finished about a half hour ago (then I went to Wild Berry and ordered some incense). I also ran errands today (Wal-Mart, the liquor store).
> To prove outlines aren't infallible, I ended up combining two chapters because to do otherwise didn't make sense in the narrative once I was in it. Ironically, I had added a chapter earlier in the book that I never planned, so things are back on track. I have ten chapters to finish, and I need to do it by Sunday. I predict I finish on Saturday. I have another book to start Monday. I will get it done, though. Then, next week, I'll write an entire romantic suspense book in seven days. I've done it before (about eight times now). Then I will edit two books the following week and not do any writing. I never give up. I never surrender. Luckily, I like my work. Oh, I also worked on covers today for a trilogy (an addendum to a series that finishes this year) that won't even start being written until after the first of the year. It's been a long day.


I am in awe, Yoda! Complete and utter awe. (But I do hope you're taking care of yourself and having some fun away from writing. That's a grueling schedule you've set for yourself. )

I am getting lots of good ideas from this thread. I keep saying I *can't* outline, then I complain about how slow I write, how my productivity isn't what I want it to be. Gee . . . do you think there's a message there?


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

EC Sheedy said:


> I am getting lots of good ideas from this thread. I keep saying I *can't* outline, then I complain about how slow I write, how my productivity isn't what I want it to be. Gee . . . do you think there's a message there?


One thing that might help is to start small? I've had good success from pantsing (mostly, ignoring the giant developmental things I'm fixing which I think are just a byproduct of writing my first and second 'proper' novels) but I do want to try and outline more.

So I started by using phase outlining on this series of short stories I'm writing - and I'm enjoying it a lot more than I expected to. We'll see how it translates over to writing, though - I'm still in the outlining process for the next day or two.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

EC Sheedy said:


> I am in awe, Yoda! Complete and utter awe. (But I do hope you're taking care of yourself and having some fun away from writing. That's a grueling schedule you've set for yourself. )
> 
> I am getting lots of good ideas from this thread. I keep saying I *can't* outline, then I complain about how slow I write, how my productivity isn't what I want it to be. Gee . . . do you think there's a message there?


Oh, don't worry, I enjoy myself. I went to the liquor store, after all . Honestly, I work really hard during the week. I take the weekends off, for the most part. I'm working ahead on the pen name right now. I don't have to write a book next week. BUT &#8230; the weather will be mildly entertaining and modestly daunting. I try to take a walk every day -- but sometimes it doesn't work out. Next week looks promising. I'll still finish my book without taxing myself. I'd rather work ahead when the weather is crap (in Michigan it's a toss-up). If I work ahead when I have nothing better to do than spring cleaning (I'm a total pig and I hate cleaning) then I can enjoy the nice weather this summer. This will be my last summer with a "little pool" -- which I love to read in -- and next summer I will have a real pool (and hot tub) thanks to my diligence. Seriously, when summer hits in a few months, I can do whatever I want for three months. If I didn't write, I wouldn't fall behind. Since I plan on buying my dream house after the first of the year, I like being ahead, though.
Before I quit my day job in January, I was working 80 hours a week. It was hard, and it was torturous. I feel like I'm in Heaven now. I did forty at the day job and 40 when I got home. Now I'm probably doing about fifty total on everything and writing more. HOWEVER, working on covers is relaxing for me. I do it while watching television (or drinking ). It's not really work. It is, but it isn't.
I have put an extensive plan in action. Since my main name is so well established, it's kind of out of the loop. It sustains itself. I work on the books, don't get me wrong, but I don't have to do anything special with a release. They sell themselves. I will have one book every two months. I have a new series I'm chomping at the bit to add, though. In reality, I will probably write the first book this summer and then hold on to it. Moving is an arduous process. I will have two houses for quite some time. I live in a &#8230; craphole, for lack of a better word. I live here now even though I don't have to. I'm going to buy my dream house outright, and it's cheap to live here and save. I have a specific dream in my head, and those "man cave" people who keep advertising on billboards are going to love me when I task them to build either the "Prancing Pony" or "Leaky Cauldron" bar in my awesome basement. Once I have the new house, the transition will take a few weeks. Then I have a lot to do to this house before I can unload it.
My live-in boyfriend works for the oil industry. He works three weeks, and then he's home for three weeks. When he's gone, I get at least two books done. When he's home, I get one and other tedious tasks done. It works for us ,and I love our life. Being an author full time is the most gratifying thing that's ever happened to me.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

jvin248 said:


> Two recent examples are attached below.


Yikes!!! That is some awesome outlining.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

eleanorberesford said:


> How do you _know_ if a book is outlined or pantsed?


By hanging around on author forums here and elsewhere, where authors discuss the subject, and then reading some of their books. There is a detectable difference with some authors (to me, anyway). But equally, it could be that knowing whether a book was outlined or pantsed in advance affects my judgment. For the avoidance of doubt, I should say that I enjoy both methods and they can both produce great books.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

I've edited about 500 words today.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

If I purely pants, I write nyself into a corner.  If I outline, I avoid the corners in time.  I'm envious of those whose minds automatically avoid those corners.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


What kind of answer do you expect to that question? And thank you for telling everyone what kind of process writing is supposed to be. I never knew how to write before! I write a book every few weeks, my books regularly make the top 100, and I made several hundred thousand dollars last year, but I've been doing it all wrong. All right, back to the drawing board for me.

OK, in the interest of keeping this reply more positive, here is how I write that quickly:

1.) I write genre novels, so I generally know what specific elements are needed. I spend a few days brainstorming and writing out ideas - who the hero and heroine are, why they're opposed to each other in the beginning, what event forces them together, what exterior problem are they fighting, how do they get together the first time, what is the All Is Lost moment, how do they overcome that, what is the ending that shows how things have changed.

Then I write a chapter by chapter outline, a few sentences to a few paragraphs per chapter.

Then I start writing my rough draft. I set a timer, write for 30 minutes. Generally that's about 600 to 1200 words. Take a brief break, do it again, until I have written for two hours. Then I go do household stuff or run errands, then a few hours later I repeat the process. I have my rough draft in less than week most of the time.

My rough draft mostly has action and dialogue and rough descriptions of setting and emotion.

As I am writing the rough draft, questions occur to me, but I don't want to slow down my flow, so I type them all at the top of my manuscript so I can go back and revise them.

I go back then and fill in physical descriptions, what the characters are thinking and feeling, more detailed descriptions of scenes. That part takes me longer - I do two to three chapters a day.

Then I send it off to my copy editor, then I publish it.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Weirdling said:


> If I purely pants, I write nyself into a corner. If I outline, I avoid the corners in time. I'm envious of those whose minds automatically avoid those corners.


I've found that the more I write/pants, the more I start instinctively avoiding the corners because I'm more creative in getting out of them. I'll admit that I'm still a newb (two novels drafted under my belt, but 600k+ of fanfic written in two years), but I think it's a matter of practice, too? Still, sometimes there are cases where I just can't go any further where my characters are because a subplot just doesn't work so I make a note in brackets slicing it out and continue on my merry way without it.

I am trying outlining to see if I can kind of sort of avoid this particular problem. x3


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

YodaRead said:


> Sorry I missed all the fun today. I was writing . I also had to put up another audio book this evening so that can go into production in a few weeks. For edification purposes, I wrote five chapters today. It was close to 13,000 words, though. I just finished about a half hour ago (then I went to Wild Berry and ordered some incense). I also ran errands today (Wal-Mart, the liquor store).
> To prove outlines aren't infallible, I ended up combining two chapters because to do otherwise didn't make sense in the narrative once I was in it. Ironically, I had added a chapter earlier in the book that I never planned, so things are back on track. I have ten chapters to finish, and I need to do it by Sunday. I predict I finish on Saturday. I have another book to start Monday. I will get it done, though. Then, next week, I'll write an entire romantic suspense book in seven days. I've done it before (about eight times now). Then I will edit two books the following week and not do any writing. I never give up. I never surrender. Luckily, I like my work. Oh, I also worked on covers today for a trilogy (an addendum to a series that finishes this year) that won't even start being written until after the first of the year. It's been a long day.


You are a trooper. If I had a day like that, a liquor store would most definitely be on the bottom of my to-do list.


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## CASD57 (May 3, 2014)

I get the idea in my head and let it grow from there, maybe not the best for novel length writing but for my 15,000 +/- novelettes it works fine.
From start to published it takes about 5 weeks for 15,000  word novelette..


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## Mark Tyson (Sep 22, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> Sorry I missed all the fun today. I was writing . I also had to put up another audio book this evening so that can go into production in a few weeks. For edification purposes, I wrote five chapters today. It was close to 13,000 words, though. I just finished about a half hour ago (then I went to Wild Berry and ordered some incense). I also ran errands today (Wal-Mart, the liquor store).
> To prove outlines aren't infallible, I ended up combining two chapters because to do otherwise didn't make sense in the narrative once I was in it. Ironically, I had added a chapter earlier in the book that I never planned, so things are back on track. I have ten chapters to finish, and I need to do it by Sunday. I predict I finish on Saturday. I have another book to start Monday. I will get it done, though. Then, next week, I'll write an entire romantic suspense book in seven days. I've done it before (about eight times now). Then I will edit two books the following week and not do any writing. I never give up. I never surrender. Luckily, I like my work. Oh, I also worked on covers today for a trilogy (an addendum to a series that finishes this year) that won't even start being written until after the first of the year. It's been a long day.


So you write one book at a time in each series. In other words you don't write 5000 on series 1 book 2 then write some of series 2 book 3 etc. you write one at a time and just have some kind of output schedule? I am very interested in knowing because I sometimes fall into the trap of wanting to write 1000 words a day on three different novels thinking I will have them done faster.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I will never, ever, understand why a small minority of people find it necessary to be nasty to someone who puts up a method post or states a personal opinion. It's OK to say you don't agree. It's also OK, and often advisable, to ignore the rest of the thread and go your merry way. It seems everywhere I go, and especially in the semi-anonymous online world, disagreement escalates to personal attacks so easily.


My plea to knowledgeable and successful authors:
Please please please do not stop posting and sharing. Each of us can use what works for us or cast aside what doesn't. I don't want us to lose one more valuable resource because subjecting oneself to abuse just isn't worth it. Every member has something to say that's worthwhile to someone.


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)

Sapphire said:


> I will never, ever, understand why a small minority of people find it necessary to be nasty to someone who puts up a method post or states a personal opinion. It's OK to say you don't agree. It's also OK, and often advisable, to ignore the rest of the thread and go your merry way. It seems everywhere I go, and especially in the semi-anonymous online world, disagreement escalates to personal attacks so easily.
> 
> My plea to knowledgeable and successful authors:
> Please please please do not stop posting and sharing. Each of us can use what works for us or cast aside what doesn't. I don't want us to lose one more valuable resource because subjecting oneself to abuse just isn't worth it. Every member has something to say that's worthwhile to someone.


I think it comes from a place that's a mixture of jealousy and stubbornness. Some people don't want to try something new or different and they are mad that someone is doing something different than they do and seeing a ton of success doing it that way.

People hate finding out they might be wrong and especially in a semi-anonymous digital world where they don't see/think of the people they are talking to as real people, there is no way those phonies could possibly be right! Pics or it didn't happen!


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## Small Town Writer (Jun 11, 2014)

Outlining has definitely helped me as well. I didn't do that with my first book and it was all over the place. The editing took longer to draw in all the plot points and I spent far too long how to connect them all and have the story make sense. Even after heavy editing, I still don't think it's my best work. For my second book, I outlined. (Possibly so I could make sure I had consistency with all the crazy plot points from the first book.) As a result, I wrote the second book faster and I think it's more coherent. Obviously there are still a few holes, but nothing as large as my first book. I feel like it was easier to sit down and write because I didn't have to think about where I was in the story and where I wanted to go. I knew what was in the next chapter, I knew how it was going to end, so I just sat down and started writing. Boom. Just like that I spit out a novel faster than I ever have before. As a result, my editing process is so much faster and I only have a few notes of changes and additions I want to make. I just plotted out the third book and hopefully I can get myself to start writing that this weekend while I continue the edits on my second book.


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, but I will second what Yoda originally said. I was a pantser for some time, and found myself rewriting entire chapters, if not whole segments of books. Outlining works far better and I can write an outline in a few minutes.

I've written novels over a week. That's a rough draft, of course. But I can't do it without having the story fleshed out first.

I outline at first by writing about a sentence per chapter, but when I initially start a series I write a brief summary of what will/might happen in each book. This changes, inevitably, as the story unfolds. But it makes the process very quick. I've written 10,000 words in a day and average around 5,000. I then go back and polish, doing several runs over the work to refine and take out redundancies and continuity errors. Some days if I don't have the energy to write I simply edit what I've done to date in order to inspire myself to continue.

One can write decently at that rate. My books average 4.5 stars. And it gets easier as you go. Would I like to take more time and refine more? Sure I would. But I don't feel that I'm putting garbage out into the world.  

An added thought: Personally I'm not sure why writing a book needs to take a year; I think that's sort of a myth we like to tell ourselves to justify it. I understand fully that having time to absorb it is great, so I like to write a rough draft and sit on it for a while. But it doesn't do anyone any good if the words aren't actually out there. 

And this isn't a criticism of anyone--I have days where I sit down and think, "Writing is too hard. I'm going to take a day off," then realize I've just allowed myself to play hooky from the nicest job in the world. I don't make the money I do by delaying my output. If I published a book a year, I'd make a few hundred bucks a year. I like the challenge of doing this as a sustainable career so on I forge, hard and energy-sapping though it is.


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## Stephanie Marks (Feb 16, 2015)

Outine? What is this "outline" you speak of? I know not these words. Seriously though, I've been writing stories my whole life, and I read a lot of books on writing. But somehow I grabbed all the ones telling me to outline. I never finished a single novel. It wasn't until last year when I embraced my Pantsing nature that I finished my first novel. 75K words. And now I'm finishing up my second. My daily goal is 2K words when I'm working on a novel. My top daily count is 10K. So a 75K novel for me takes about a month and a half if I'm not messing about.
Short stories are different because they move differently. Two nights ago I knocked out a 3K story in 3 hours. I'm working on another story today that I'm hoping will be 6-7K words and I would LIKE to finish it all today. Which is completely possible if I keep my butt off the internet. *eyeroll*

I'm just a fast writer *shrug*. And I ALWAYS refer to my writing as "churning it out" when I get a lot done in a day, but maybe that's because I've actually MADE butter from scratch before. And to me the feeling is similar so the word is perfectly apt. When I write 1,000 words an hour my mind is clear and the words just flow through me and out my finger tips. No pauses, questioning, stops and starts. It IS like the smooth rhythmic and repetitive motion of churning butter, it's zen. 

So yes, I say I'm churning it out, or that I'm hammering it out (because my fingers just fly I've the keys and bang away).

*oh, I'm also a fast reader and can easily finish two 300 page novels a day. I don't know if the two are in any way related?


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I skipped most of the pages of this thread, too, but as a natural pantser I've found outlining to be immensely helpful with writing speed. What works best for me is a bare-bones outline (though next time, I'm going to try Libbie's method) followed by writing out a paragraph for each chapter the day before I write. When I do that, I get a LOT more words written. It can mean the difference between 4k and 6k in a day. Other factors do come into play, but regardless, I write less without some form of an outline.

I can't write out paragraphs on each chapter too far ahead of time because my characters have minds of their own. My current WIP is perfect example. I had a certain plan in mind, but they took it in a far different direction. I'm in the last 15k and need to reign them in while still hitting some major points I wanted, but they tried to avoid.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Stephanie Marks said:


> Outine? What is this "outline" you speak of? I know not these words. Seriously though, I've been writing stories my whole life, and I read a lot of books on writing. But somehow I grabbed all the ones telling me to outline. I never finished a single novel. It wasn't until last year when I embraced my Pantsing nature that I finished my first novel. 75K words. And now I'm finishing up my second. My daily goal is 2K words when I'm working on a novel. My top daily count is 10K. So a 75K novel for me takes about a month and a half if I'm not messing about.
> Short stories are different because they move differently. Two nights ago I knocked out a 3K story in 3 hours. I'm working on another story today that I'm hoping will be 6-7K words and I would LIKE to finish it all today. Which is completely possible if I keep my butt off the internet. *eyeroll*
> 
> I'm just a fast writer *shrug*. And I ALWAYS refer to my writing as "churning it out" when I get a lot done in a day, but maybe that's because I've actually MADE butter from scratch before. And to me the feeling is similar so the word is perfectly apt. When I write 1,000 words an hour my mind is clear and the words just flow through me and out my finger tips. No pauses, questioning, stops and starts. It IS like the smooth rhythmic and repetitive motion of churning butter, it's zen.
> ...


I'm a slow reader (it took me ~2 minutes to read your post) and I average 2400 words an hour for fiction (3-4k for fact-based things like email or blogs or journals or stuff like this).


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## Scott_SA (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm new to fiction writing, and outlining seems to be helping me. However, after I write two or three scenes/chapters, I noticed the story starts to veer off in a different (better?) direction. So I need to stop and re-outline. After two or three more scenes/chapters, using the new outline, I've veered off again and need to re-outline again.

I'm not sure whether this is good or bad. I believe it's leading me to a better story. But I'm fairly certain it's slowing me down. I'm hoping it's something I'll improve as I write more.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Wouldn't it be great if there was a magic formula that worked for everyone and guaranteed a million sales? 

This is my first attempt at an outline because I want to write a trilogy and need to know if I have enough of a plot to make it through three books. Still working on it.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

How come my comments are always followed by those "lose fat" ads. It's a conspiracy, right?


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## Cora Jane Snow (Dec 19, 2013)

What Yoda calls an outline I call a beat sheet. I do that too. I pretty much know how many chapters I want, and I set them up in Scrivener. Then, I type in my beats for reach chapter right on the chapter page where I'll write. The index card thing confuses me, so I like to have my beats right in the same screen. After I've written the book, I just delete the notes in each chapter. Works for me.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> How come my comments are always followed by those "lose fat" ads. It's a conspiracy, right?


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

Kathy doesn't outline she's a one and done-r.

Me?  I list the main plot and subplot points to be accomplished in each chapter.  It 100% stops slow spots and other story telling flaws and keeps me from drifting.  These morph as the book gets written sometimes but that's what the characters tell me to do.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Martitalbott said:


> Wouldn't it be great if there was a magic formula that worked for everyone and guaranteed a million sales?
> 
> This is my first attempt at an outline because I want to write a trilogy and need to know if I have enough of a plot to make it through three books. Still working on it.


Isn't that the truth! I've written my first two novels without an outline but I think I could have significantly avoided the plot problems I'm spending time fixing now if I had a way to outline and could have felt them out ahead of time. And I think not having an outline is what's hurting me with the sci-fi series I want to write - I have no idea where it's going and no idea what's going on and although it's vaguely exhilarating/fun, it's also terrifying. I know it's going to be a multi-book series, because that's what happens when I juggle three POVs and I've never kept anything short in my life, but I have no idea where it's going.

Because I do best if I stick close to the story, to the characters, I'm trying phase outlining (or a variation thereof) because I can get close to the characters and keep my turtle-on-the-sand metaphor in terms of how close I am to my characters/story. So far I'm taking it for a test drive on a series of short stories. If it works, if I don't hate it, if I don't feel that it 'saps my creative energy', I'll give it a shot for my Camp project.

However, to each their own and all. My close friend (and writing confidante) needs to have a 'god view'/overall view of her world before she can even touch plot. Whereas I absolutely hate worldbuilding and prefer to let it all develop organically. 



Cora Jane Snow said:


> What Yoda calls an outline I call a beat sheet. I do that too. I pretty much know how many chapters I want, and I set them up in Scrivener. Then, I type in my beats for reach chapter right on the chapter page where I'll write. The index card thing confuses me, so I like to have my beats right in the same screen. After I've written the book, I just delete the notes in each chapter. Works for me.


I also use Scrivener and write them out in a document, but I split the screen in half and have the outline on the left and the chapter/whatever on the right. That way I can always reference the outline/make changes/whatever, but I don't have the notes in the chapter file itself (makes it easier to track wordcount, that sort of thing). (Also this might change - this is just how I'm planning to do it.)


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I honestly love my old school notebooks. I have one for each series, and I flip through them as I go. I think today is going to be a hybrid day. A few chapters of writing, a final read-through on a romantic suspense book that goes up next week for oreorder in early July, and then more outline work. I dreamed about this series last night, which I think means I have to write that stuff down before I forget about it.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Sapphire said:


> I will never, ever, understand why a small minority of people find it necessary to be nasty to someone who puts up a method post or states a personal opinion. It's OK to say you don't agree. It's also OK, and often advisable, to ignore the rest of the thread and go your merry way. It seems everywhere I go, and especially in the semi-anonymous online world, disagreement escalates to personal attacks so easily.
> 
> My plea to knowledgeable and successful authors:
> Please please please do not stop posting and sharing. Each of us can use what works for us or cast aside what doesn't. I don't want us to lose one more valuable resource because subjecting oneself to abuse just isn't worth it. Every member has something to say that's worthwhile to someone.


I suspect some of the most emotional versions of this comes from the fact that the person felt that learning that "fact" was an achievement, and they've kinda pinned their egos to the belief. So when someone shrugs it off and says "not for me", it feels like an indirect attack on this person's achievements and status.

I'm not saying this to belittle how they feel, but the opposite. It's a natural human reaction. (I remember one time I was wearing oxford shoes -- plain black ones. And a little boy in line at the grocery store looked at those shoes, and then at me, and then at the shoes, and he very sternly told me that those were BOY'S shoes. I got the feeling that, given that women and men dress alike in many ways, he had settled on shoes as the really certain way to tell men from women, and I had utterly upended his world view.)

Before the internet, and before self-publishing, many writers literally never heard from any other writers except within the mono-culture of college, and what that culture thought seemed like the only way to think. Even now, many people are thrown for a loop on the internet, when they come into contact with other cultures who think differently.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

YodaRead said:


> I honestly love my old school notebooks. I have one for each series, and I flip through them as I go. I think today is going to be a hybrid day. A few chapters of writing, a final read-through on a romantic suspense book that goes up next week for oreorder in early July, and then more outline work. I dreamed about this series last night, which I think means I have to write that stuff down before I forget about it.


I love my stenobooks. And I love 3x5 cards. But I never use them the way people are supposed to use them. (For me, they remind me of games, so they end up as like playing cards....)

Camille


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

daringnovelist said:


> Before the internet, and before self-publishing, many writers literally never heard from any other writers except within the mono-culture of college, and what that culture thought seemed like the only way to think. Even now, many people are thrown for a loop on the internet, when they come into contact with other cultures who think differently.
> 
> Camille


I very much agree with this. Even with the internet, it's very easy to be exposed to one specific writing culture - such as I spent a lot of time on NaNo's forums - and for early writers/young people to absorb this notion that there's only one 'proper' way to be a writer. A lot of my struggles the past six months haven't been skill-related, but dealing with the notion that I'm doing it 'wrong' because everyone else [ie, the forums I read growing up] are doing it a different way. It's taken a lot of time to get comfortable with this notion that there's no right or wrong way to write, just the way it works for you. And if you try something new - like outlining for the first time, or in a new way - it's not because you were doing it 'wrong' to begin with, but you want to try something new, and that's okay.


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## Ainsley (Dec 26, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> If you want to use the LA metaphor...
> 
> If I need to go to LA, there is a direct flight from here. It takes 17 hours and is as boring as hell  Moreover, there are really no alternative routes.
> 
> Some time back, someone here made the point that pantsers and plotters are not that different. Just the pantsers tend to keep the outline in their heads. I certainly do, and in general I don't start a book until I know where I want the character to be at the end, and know a couple of key points along the way. I could write this down and call myself a plotter [insert devil smiley]


Funny the LA metaphor comes up cause I used to live there. I never thought about it, but I was a pantser before I moved to LA. After living there though you learn to become a master of google maps, shortcuts, and planning ahead. After sitting on the 405 for what seems like an eternity the last thing I want to do when I get home is get lost pantsing, reversing out of dead ends and haggling with characters that pop up out of nowhere begging for your attention.

Needless to say, I've since become much more appreciative of outlines and use them often.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

a_g said:


> Many of us on the community would agree with you on the word 'churn' to describe writing, especially at speed. Others aren't bothered by the word or its negative connotations.
> 
> However, in this thread, you were the first one to use it and it was used in a derogatory manner.


Speaking of churning it out, Kris Rusch had some good thoughts on the matter.


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## Ainsley (Dec 26, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> One way to transition from pantser to plotter mode: start by blathering out the outline in your head. Get it down and in fixed form -- but you don't have to refer to it again if you don't feel the need.
> 
> What I find sometimes works (when I'm in pantser mode but need to have more thinking ahead) is that I take that document where I "outlined" what I thought I was going to do, and treat it like a blog. The next day, I type a row of asterisks across the page and put my latest ideas ABOVE the old ones. I scroll down only if I need to refer to something. Every so often, I will re-outline the whole thing (or major parts of it) at the top of the doc. That way I keep all my notes and thoughts, but I don't feel the pressure to go down and look at the rest.
> 
> ...


Another method I like is the 'watch the movie in your head', where you basically relax, close your eyes and play out the story like a film. I like to cast specific actors or even directors that have a certain style/genre. Makes the process more fun and it's helpful for dialogue especially if certain actors have a specific cadence e.g. Walken, Zooey D., etc.

In fact I think a great inspirational resource would be Robert Rodriguez's essay on low budget filmmaking. I think a lot of the same principles would apply to writing as well as filmmaking.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Cora Jane Snow said:


> I pretty much know how many chapters I want, and I set them up in Scrivener. Then, I type in my beats for reach chapter right on the chapter page where I'll write. The index card thing confuses me, so I like to have my beats right in the same screen.





elizabethsade said:


> I also use Scrivener and write them out in a document, but I split the screen in half and have the outline on the left and the chapter/whatever on the right. That way I can always reference the outline/make changes/whatever, but I don't have the notes in the chapter file itself (makes it easier to track wordcount, that sort of thing). (Also this might change - this is just how I'm planning to do it.)


I use Scrivener too and abandoned the cards because I spent too much time fussing with them. But I do use the Outline feature (which puts the info on cards automatically without my ever switching to that view). Just thought I'd mention that if you don't use the distraction-free screen in Scrivener and leave it with the Binder showing on the left and the Inspector on the right, you see your outline/card info on the top right. I've also started using the Notes feature on the bottom of the Inspector since I realized I could switch it from showing only for the one document I'm in to showing for the whole project.

I don't know why but I don't like the distraction-free screen. The Binder on the left and Inspector on the right provide some kind of security feeling for me. Of course before Scriv I used to write with my printed outline, timeline, character lists, etc., all around me.


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

I strongly believe in outlining, too. I like to know I actually have a good story to tell before I begin telling it, or at least before I've gotten very far into it (as sometimes a particular image or scene will simply demand to be written as the opening of a tale). I give myself room to let the story grow and change on its own, though.

One of the things that frustrated me so much about Stephen King's "On Writing" was when he came out and said, point blank, that anyone--ANYONE--who outlines a story is a "hack". Thanks, Stephen.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I find that I'm just too hijacked by spur-of-the-moment decisions. There's definitely a skill involved to pantsing in those first few chapters, setting up all sorts of conflicts that you don't know the resolution to. Depending on the order in which they resolve greatly effects the story. Rather than fight that, I've embraced it. The surprising combinations that come out of that rock my world.

Really, what it comes down to is that I don't really think about or explore my ideas until I'm sitting there writing. Only once I'm waist deep does my brain turn on and begin generating gobs of good stuff. Only once I'm writing do consequences occur to me. Only once I'm writing do I suddenly realize that some conception of mine is wrong and that my world wants a different solution.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Ainsley said:


> Another method I like is the 'watch the movie in your head', where you basically relax, close your eyes and play out the story like a film. I like to cast specific actors or even directors that have a certain style/genre. Makes the process more fun and it's helpful for dialogue especially if certain actors have a specific cadence e.g. Walken, Zooey D., etc.
> 
> In fact I think a great inspirational resource would be Robert Rodriguez's essay on low budget filmmaking. I think a lot of the same principles would apply to writing as well as filmmaking.


You know, when I was in film school, I used to dream in 4x3 ratio, and the dream was running on a moviola - which could be run back and forth when it stopped making sense. (Not that the dream made sense anyway, but it stopped making dream-sense.)

I tend to think of the movie-in-you-head as "playing." Like when I was a kid, and we'd climb the rocks in the neighbor's garden and it would be the alps or the bombed-out building from some movie or tv show we'd seen. Alone or in groups, we'd often "revise" the story as we went, improving it and negotiating among different visions.

For me, writing is a variation of playing. And I am discovering that when I go into full out play mode in my outlining phase, I really do work out the parts that aren't fun.

The other thing I was thinking today that is making this "Xtreme Outlining" project work for me is that I forbid myself to write any of it until that outline is completely done. Because that saves the "developing the voice" part for later, and which keeps the writing part fun and fresh for me, even after beating the outline to death.

Camille


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Seems I've ruffled feathers. But this is a discussion board and I thought that's what we were doing.

I guess it's a reflection of the kind of books I read, I don't read any genre-specific books. Never read any books that are romance/thriller/fantasy/etc.

It's great that you guys that are successful at it with 10,000 word a day counts and making hundreds of thousands a year. 

I may not appreciate it, but your readers do!  Keep it up.


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## Romanticreed (Oct 18, 2014)

I kind of agreed with you, in a way. I've wondered why people grab the first idea and went with it for their book, however, if they are successful, then who am I to ask? Then again nothingshocking, why are you here, if not to learn? It can't be to criticize people making a living, I wouldn't think. However, everyone loved Michael Jackson until he became a multimillionaire. Then he couldn't be tore down fast enough. That's the culture of North America. Push people to their greatest heights and then tear them down because they've gone way to far. They're making a living, better than you and me, that's for sure. But why penalize them? It is our culture that has made them making a living in the first place. So, again, why are you here, why in this thread, surely it's not for the betterment of our craft, because you already don't read genre books, right?


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Mainly I am here to learn about the industry of self-publishing. I am also here to learn how to write and writing/editing techniques.

It seems to me that most of the posts on this board are about the industry of self-publishing and how to market and sell more books. That's fine if that's what people want.

I am on the fourth edit of my first book. It's about 150,000 words of shit right now that I am continuously wading through trying to make sense of it all. It is not the kind of story that people will  want to read, it's fucking depressing and it ends not with a great final heroic win or a death but just life carrying on as usual with no way out of the meaninglessness of it all. That's how I want it to end and how it will end.

Many if not most of the writers here are very genre specific. I have actually downloaded and read a select few authors work from here and been greatly disappointed by all that I have read. Some of it is just dire; complete nonsensical plot turns (and not in a good  way), terrible dialogue and really just very bad writing. I cringed.

I hope that my book will be better. When I release it to the masses I imagine it will  sell a dozen copies if that.


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## Romanticreed (Oct 18, 2014)

That's great. Yes, you're right, a lot of what's on here is marketing and so forth. One of the authors on this board has a book out about structure and so forth. I haven't got it yet, but plan to. Her name is Libbie Hawker and the book is on Amazon. It's here ... http://www.amazon.com/Libbie-Hawker/e/B00CCRAKWM Good luck with your book!


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Thank you.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

NothingsShocking said:


> Many if not most of the writers here are very genre specific.


Actually, SOME of the writers here are genre specific. Many of us use genre as a communication tool -- we talk about things in terms of genre because most people in publishing know what it means.

I am cross-genre / non-genre and take a literary approach to my work, went to grad school in creative writing. (Heck, I _taught_ college creative writing.) Certainly spent a lifetime on it.

The first thing I should mention is that, though this forum is more known for the mechanics of publishing, for the last year or so, it has increasingly become more of a place to talk about craft. BUT... if you are serious about talking craft here, the first thing you have to do is hang up your preconceptions about genre at the door. There are many people here who have a lot to teach who also happen to be hyper-sensitive about criticism of their genres. If you snark at them, they will not teach you.

There are also a lot of people like me, who are not sensitive, but if you get people going on this old debate, _we will not help you_ because we don't want to hear this debate over again. We're tired of it.

As for the cringe-worthy prose you may have seen. Yeah, there are some pretty bad books out there, both pro and indie. And yes, there are some very popular (and not popular) authors whose work makes me cringe, but that's irrelevant. So what. That has nothing to do with the kind of information we're talking about here. Sometimes that's not a craft issue (it's what their audience wants and they have honed that craft) and sometimes it is, but it has nothing to do with how fast the author writes or whether they outline or not.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't assume that the things you don't like and want to avoid are due to things you have prejudices about. After all, you are writing slowly and haven't mastered your craft -- one could as easily say "well your writing crap because you write slowly" (and believe me, there is a literary school of thought that holds that as true).

The other thing to keep in mind is that, you are learning, and I am sorry to say but when you are learning, pretty soon everything looks like crap. If you haven't reached this point yet, I warn you, there will come a point when you can't read for pleasure any more, because you see so many "mistakes" in everything.

Be assured, this will pass. It's a manifestation of the old Zen rule about how before you study zen, you see mountains as mountains, and water as water. While you study zen, you can't see mountains any more, you see their elements and the symbols about them (like not being able to see the forest for the trees), and then, when you have mastered zen, once again you can see the mountains as mountains (while also seeing their elements and symbols and all that too).

So chlll. It's okay. Like zen, there really isn't a lot of material to learn, but it can take a lifetime to understand it. Don't reject anything that you might be able to use based on preconceptions. (And if you can't use it now, file it away for later, because really, at some point, you will learn from everything.)

Camille


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> Mainly I am here to learn about the industry of self-publishing. I am also here to learn how to write and writing/editing techniques.
> 
> It seems to me that most of the posts on this board are about the industry of self-publishing and how to market and sell more books. That's fine if that's what people want.
> 
> ...


I think you need a hug. Here... (((hUG)))

Now I'm going to snark at you a bit.

Don't like what you're writing? Then stop.
Don't like what you're reading? Then stop.
Want to see more writing craft threads? Start one.

You're not a tree. You CAN move.

And now, another hug: (((hug)))


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Oh, you!  Get your hands off me, I'm married.

Ok so thanks for the virtual hug, I appreciate it.  But in response to what you said, I should say that I do enjoy what I am writing, I just don't like the results so far. It's getting better but piece by gradual piece.

And I read writers who I think I will hate because I need to know why I hate them. (I'm looking at you Dan Brown - Scooby Doo called, they want their ideas back).

But yes you are right about starting more threads. No reason I should not do that.

Man....... You make me feel like the Grouch out of Sesame Street.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> Oh, you! Get your hands off me, I'm married.
> 
> Ok so thanks for the virtual hug, I appreciate it. But in response to what you said, I should say that I do enjoy what I am writing, I just don't like the results so far. It's getting better but piece by gradual piece.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see more threads on writing/craft too, personally. Especially on tropes for each genre. Main tropes.

...and you have been a bit grouchy, to be honest. But there's' always a way to turn it around! Start now! Writers can be a prickly bunch... But here, we're all on the same page. We all want to learn from each other.

And I'm a non-sexual hugger. Similar to hugging a board, actually. I'm sure your wife wouldn't mind


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

L.L. Akers said:


> I'd like to see more threads on writing/craft too, personally. Especially on tropes for each genre. Main tropes.


Off topic, I know, but I've been contemplating starting one about romance and expectations, but I just don't feel brave enough yet. (Downside of being a prawn.)

Back on topic, I'm really enjoying my outlining so far. Who knows, maybe I'll adopt it for my longer projects, too.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

YodaRead said:


> Oh, don't worry, I enjoy myself. I went to the liquor store, after all . Honestly, I work really hard during the week. I take the weekends off, for the most part. I'm working ahead on the pen name right now. I don't have to write a book next week . . .


Weirdly, although I don't know you, Yoda, I'm very glad to hear you balance things out. I guess going from 80 to 50 hours a week is a huge improvement. I hadn't thought about that!  You are an inspiration.

I'm going to try this outlining business...


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

elizabethsade said:


> One thing that might help is to start small? I've had good success from pantsing (mostly, ignoring the giant developmental things I'm fixing which I think are just a byproduct of writing my first and second 'proper' novels) but I do want to try and outline more.
> 
> So I started by using phase outlining on this series of short stories I'm writing - and I'm enjoying it a lot more than I expected to. We'll see how it translates over to writing, though - I'm still in the outlining process for the next day or two.


I did not know of this "phase outlining method" until it was mentioned here. So I went here: http://www.datarave.net/zfh/2012/01/05/phase-outline-methodology/#sthash.QlAOyVRi.dpbs

It actually looks quite interesting--and maybe doable for me. Thanks. (That said I'm always looking for the productivity silver bullet when what I really need is some dollar-store super glue to keep my AIC.   )


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

EC Sheedy said:


> I did not know of this "phase outlining method" until it was mentioned here. So I went here: http://www.datarave.net/zfh/2012/01/05/phase-outline-methodology/#sthash.QlAOyVRi.dpbs
> 
> It actually looks quite interesting--and maybe doable for me. Thanks. (That said I'm always looking for the productivity silver bullet when what I really need is some dollar-store super glue to keep my AIC.   )


No problem! I heard about it through NaNo, actually. I haven't tested it properly (I used to be quite adverse to outlining), but I'm giving it a proper go now that I'm further down my writing road (last time I tried it was a couple years ago) and I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with it now.

I don't think it hurts to try new things? I'm trying out phase outlining to see if it helps structure my novels better. Could I stick with what I've been doing, and probably do okay? Yeah. But I want to give this a go, because I think it could help. If you try it and it doesn't work, try something else.  I don't think there's much of a hurt in trying something new?

I find phase outlining to be good for people who like to stay close to the story (I call it turtle-level) because it allows you to incorporate more emotions/feelings/that sort of stuff when you're planning instead of just 'Jane meets Dick. Have this conversation happen.' because that sort of outlining doesn't work for how my mind processes the story.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Jim Johnson said:


> Speaking of churning it out, Kris Rusch had some good thoughts on the matter.


Yes. That exactly!


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

We are all different, and different approaches work for all of us.  It's wonderful to hear of the techniques that work for one writer, and apparently, work extremely well.  That doesn't mean that anyone else's approach is wrong, just that it is their own way of doing things.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you for sharing, YodaRead! Rock on.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

NothingsShocking said:


> Oh, you! Get your hands off me, I'm married.
> 
> Ok so thanks for the virtual hug, I appreciate it. But in response to what you said, I should say that I do enjoy what I am writing, I just don't like the results so far. It's getting better but piece by gradual piece.
> 
> ...


I don't know if you saw my post (it was at the end of the previous page, and might have been "too long; didn't read") but I think the issue here isn't that you're being a grouch, but that you don't seem to realize that a lot of us ARE literary writers.

If you'd just unstop your ears, maybe you'd realize that what you want is actually here. Very often, to communicate, we talk about genre, because we all understand common terms there. That doesn't mean what we say is actually about genre, and genre only.

For instance, the idea of writing fast without rewriting is not actually a genre and pulp fiction concept. It was something that was espoused by a great many of the avant garde writers of the stream of consciousness movement.

And one of the things they discovered is that when they wrote forward, and didn't go back, they became stronger writers because they gained a lot more experience. (Rewriting may help the story you wrote, but it doesn't give you experience.)

Camille


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

One of the things I was told by a publisher was that I wrote horror with a literary bend. I thought it was a weird description until another writer said you could tell a Doug Wright story without my name and that I was classic. I had to clarify he wasn't talking about my age.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

Camille, I did read your post and I agree with what you wrote there.  In fact, I find myself agreeing with many of your posts.

That said, I don't think I have my ears blocked. I don't personally know anyone here so all I can go by are the  posts that I see. From that it seems that the majority are genre specific authors.  It's refreshing to know that there are writers on this forum that are not.

I'm not going to view self-publishing with rose-tinted specs. Yes, it has taken away the gatekeepers somewhat but by doing that there has been a flood of work from authors who have no right to call themselves that.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

NothingsShocking said:


> Camille, I did read your post and I agree with what you wrote there. In fact, I find myself agreeing with many of your posts.
> 
> That said, I don't think I have my ears blocked. I don't personally know anyone here so all I can go by are the posts that I see. From that it seems that the majority are genre specific authors. It's refreshing to know that there are writers on this forum that are not.
> 
> I'm not going to view self-publishing with rose-tinted specs. Yes, it has taken away the gatekeepers somewhat but by doing that there has been a flood of work from authors who have no right to call themselves that.


The thing to remember is that this is the internet. You don't know anybody on it. You have no idea, for instance, what else people, what pen names they write under. You don't know what else they may have published. Many of us who started in traditional publishing, for instance, have many works which are out of print, but also have tied up rights.

The issue isn't that you should take anyone's word for anything -- it's that you should never dismiss what someone has to say just because you think they are a mere genre writer. Or even if you have sampled their work and don't like it. Even (heaven forbid) Dan Brown might have something to teach you.

That said: what is the thing you want more of from your own writing? (And does it relate to outlining....) That seems to be the best way to get a craft discussion started here: practical questions you are working on. We all have struggled with many of the same issues.

Camille


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

In terms of outlining I have done this: Written a ton of disjointed scenes and stories and then outlined them afterwards to try and make cohesion between them all.

Then I have rewritten it all as one book, looked at all of that and made an outline from that.

I'm still doing that now. I think outlining is important as it holds the story together like glue. I like narrative (I am very much against the idea of dispensing with narrative) but not to the point where I must hold on to it against all odds.

I think outlining of course is important but I have done it in a reverse method I guess, outlining after the event so to speak.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

NothingsShocking said:


> In terms of outlining I have done this: Written a ton of disjointed scenes and stories and then outlined them afterwards to try and make cohesion between them all.
> 
> Then I have rewritten it all as one book, looked at all of that and made an outline from that.
> 
> ...


Reverse method has always worked for me. Although I'm doing this experiment right now, normally I always write an outline after I have approximately 75 percent of the material written. I do this in every single book, and some shorter works. Since I don't write in chronological order, this is especially important -- it helps me see how big the gaps are between sections as well as elements I might not have realized I need.

it also helps, at that point, to see the timing and what I call "emotional trajectory." (I'm a big on on emotional trajectory.) Make sure you don't bring the character to the point of a decision, and then back away because you have this one more thing to happen before the decision. (That changes the trajectory, and they are no longer headed for the decision.)

Camille


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

When I said 'reverse outline' I meant the system that you have employed, Camille.  And yeah, I am totally with you on the emotional trajectory. That is something that my main character keeps getting lost on. I rather, I do.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

NothingsShocking said:


> It is not the kind of story that people will want to read
> ...
> I hope that my book will be better. When I release it to the masses I imagine it will sell a dozen copies if that.


At the very least you'll have a book that by your own subjective standards is "better". Hopefully you understand why that is the overarching motivating principle for you and your work.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> Yes, it has taken away the gatekeepers somewhat but by doing that there has been a flood of work from authors *who have no right to call themselves that*.


 

And you are the one who gets to decide this?


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

NothingsShocking said:


> In terms of outlining I have done this: Written a ton of disjointed scenes and stories and then outlined them afterwards to try and make cohesion between them all.
> 
> Then I have rewritten it all as one book, looked at all of that and made an outline from that.


One of the best pieces of advice I ever read was to be willing to throw out my darlings. I would write a scene that was beautiful, the words flowing, the imagery dramatic, maybe even a brilliant piece of dialogue or internal monologue. In reality, those scenes dragged out a chapter or made it clunky or, worse yet, boring. Sometimes, they didn't even fit in very well. Cutting them felt as if I were cutting out the best of my creativity. The only way I was able to do it was to cut and paste into a saved file rather than hitting delete. I was sure I'd use them somewhere else because they were so wonderful. So far? Not the case. Confession time: I'm sometimes guilty of writing more.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow. Just read through this thread and am bookmarking so I can go back and dig a little deeper. I, too, am in awe of Yoda's output. I've never gotten more than 3000 words in a day. Not ever. Sad, me. Part of my problem is I think I'm not self-editing as I go, but I am. I do use very detailed outlines, and TBH, I love outlining far more than I do actually writing. At least when I first sit down. Once I'm about twenty minutes into the session I suddenly remember I love writing. I don't understand that glitch in my memory, but I blame it on fibromyalgia.

And that's the other problem I have. It relates back to the self-editing-as-I-go thing. Because I have fibro there are days when my brain gets sluggish. I get hung up trying to think of a particular word, whatever that might be. Then I get mad at myself because I can't think of THAT word. I can almost think of it. It kind of dangles there just out of my reach, taunting me. And I know that THAT word is the perfect word. I must have THAT word.

Sigh...

And I know Yoda wants to remain anonymous and has absolutely every right to do so. Doesn't stop me from trying to figure it out, though.  I'm not smart enough to follow the trail of clues, although every now and then I think I might know. OMG. Yoda's identity better not turn into a THAT word situation for me. I'll never get any writing done!


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

a_g said:


> And you are the one who gets to decide this?


As a reader of some of the rubbish on Amazon, yes. I am a consumer.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

NothingsShocking said:


> As a reader of some of the rubbish on Amazon, yes. I am a consumer.


It's subjective, an opinion. I think 50 shades is terrible. Millions disagree. (Other millions probably agree, but that's beside the point.)


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

NothingsShocking said:


> As a reader of some of the rubbish on Amazon, yes. I am a consumer.


Cool. As long as it is understood that it's just your opinion and that your idea of rubbish is not the same as other opinions. And that it may end up that you get tossed into that same category by someone else.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

NothingsShocking said:


> As a reader of some of the rubbish on Amazon, yes. I am a consumer.


So are you more of a dictator/consumer that has the ability to unilaterally decide if other people have the right to call themselves authors, or one of many consumers forming a legislative body who collectively determine to whom this right extends? 
Could a writer in regards to whom it has been decreed that they do not have the right to call themselves an author hire a lawyer and appeal the decision?


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> One of the best pieces of advice I ever read was to be willing to throw out my darlings. I would write a scene that was beautiful, the words flowing, the imagery dramatic, maybe even a brilliant piece of dialogue or internal monologue. In reality, those scenes dragged out a chapter or made it clunky or, worse yet, boring. Sometimes, they didn't even fit in very well. Cutting them felt as if I were cutting out the best of my creativity. The only way I was able to do it was to cut and paste into a saved file rather than hitting delete. I was sure I'd use them somewhere else because they were so wonderful. So far? Not the case. Confession time: I'm sometimes guilty of writing more.


I'm running into these kinds of situations since I'm working on editing my first two novels right now and I'm 'coping' with it (so to speak) just by pretending that I'm editing someone else's. It helps that I let the 'finished products' sit for a good month before I get into them, but it lets me steamroll through them and ruthlessly tear out things that don't belong.

Do I think my beta readers will still be like 'this [part] is boring'? Probably. Hopefully in a lesser quantity than they would have otherwise, but we'll see.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

NothingsShocking said:


> As a reader of some of the rubbish on Amazon, yes. I am a consumer.


Which, by your own criteria, means you have no right to call yourself a writer either.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't tend to judge other people's work. I don't believe stuff is generally bad. It's just not for me. People have to decide what they want out of this endeavor. I want to write entertaining books that aren't going to change the world but do make people laugh. I also want to make a comfortable living. Period. I do this full time. I put 50 hours a week into it. I enjoy what I do. I think April is finally going to be the month where I break the $50,000-a-month threshold.
The truth is, I don't have time to sit around and look down on other people's work because it takes away from my enjoyment in life. It doesn't make me feel superior. It doesn't help me buy my dream house outright after the first of the year. It certainly doesn't make me happy. Those are the important things to me.
So, I'm running to Target because I need some house-cleaning supplies and I want the fifth season of Modern Family to pop into the DVD player while I write -- and I might even splurge on Del Taco. Then I'm going to write five chapters -- and since I didn't write yesterday I'm going to write the final five tomorrow -- and then Monday I'm going to start a romantic suspense book and finish it by the end of the week. I'm sure they will both be crap -- but I'm surprisingly okay with it.


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## AshRonin (May 5, 2013)




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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

NothingsShocking said:


> Four novels and two 25,000 word pieces?
> 
> At the risk of p*ss ing you off - are these books any good?
> 
> ...


Depends on the author. I routinely write 90,000-100,000-word novels in about three weeks. (Like the OP, I use outlines to achieve that.)

Are my books any good? Check the reviews on the books linked below and see what my readers think.

I've never bought the idea that writing is "supposed" to be a slow process. It's supposed to be whatever kind of process works for you. Whether you get better results by writing slowly and ruminating over every word, or trusting your gut and riding the streak of fire, depends entirely on your personality.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

YodaRead said:


> I want to write entertaining books that aren't going to change the world but do make people laugh.


Oddly enough, those are the things that DO change the world.

I keep thinking of two things: One is a story about Jim Henson who once called all his people together and said, simply, "I want to create a TV show that will change the world." It was a very simple, very Henson sentiment, but he did what he hoped.

The thing is the marvelous Preston Sturgis flick, Sullivan's Travels.






It's about a Depression Era director who wants to make a serious picture about the state of the world, a picture that will make a difference! But when he heads out to gain experience how bad life can be, he winds up hopeless and at the bottom of the heap, working on a chain gang. And then... he discovers that the things that makes the most difference in life is silly comedy.

Sturgis wasn't, of course, a maker if silly comedies. His work was fun, funny and satrical, but it was considered "too egg headed" (i.e. too intellectual) for most people of the day. He ended up on the Blacklist for it, actually.

Camille


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Oddly enough, those are the things that DO change the world.
> 
> I keep thinking of two things: One is a story about Jim Henson who once called all his people together and said, simply, "I want to create a TV show that will change the world." It was a very simple, very Henson sentiment, but he did what he hoped.
> 
> ...


Awesome post.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Sweet Amber said:


> Aweomse post.


Thanks... and I, uh, fixed the YouTube link.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> As a pantser, when I find I need foreshadowing earlier in the story, I go back and add it in. I'd hate to know what's going to happen before I even start writing. The fun part for me is finding out what happens as I go along.


I'm getting to this thread late, I'm afraid, but find this post fits my approach to a T. A big bonus for pantsing is that I have the same fun a reader has to wants to know what happens. I could never outline for hours, days, probably because my imagination works more slowly. I try to write a sentence or two of what lies ahead, and if I complete chapters with those ideas and there's nothing left to go on, I simply take a day or two off. My imagination works 24/7 and always comes up with ideas, most of which I use. I believe it was E.L. Doctorow who used the simile of traveling cross-country and using only what one can see with the headlights. For me, drafting is like reading and I'd never try to edit while drafting--that's what causes me to freeze up.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm also late to this thread, but I too have embraced outlining. I have had to adopt "and then what happens" as my mode of outlining in composition books, leaving two-three pages blank at the beginning of the notebook for setting and character names/brief descriptions as they happen when I write. I use highlighters to cross off what's already written which helps me stay encouraged to keep going, look at what I've already done! 

Not as fast as Yoda, but I have some other major things killing my speed lately, I had walking pneumonia earlier this year and now we're rennovating a house to sell it so my writing time has been half of what it was. Since January I've only done one novella and one novel. 

I think when you study story structure and practice, practice at laying out a story, it comes very easy to do this. As far as is it any good or not, well I'm not paying $50 to be considered for a Pulitzer . . . my readers love it, that's all I care about. Outlining is great too to make sure you're keeping tension and conflict at appropriate levels throughout the story. You get into your personal rhythm of up and down up and down etc the reader should feel in the emotion/action/suspense/surprise etc.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

NothingsShocking said:


> From that it seems that the majority are genre specific authors. It's refreshing to know that there are writers on this forum that are not.
> 
> I'm not going to view self-publishing with rose-tinted specs. Yes, it has taken away the gatekeepers somewhat but by doing that there has been a flood of work from authors who have no right to call themselves that.


First, I would ask why is that refreshing? Genre fiction is the majority of fiction and in addition to the entertainment factor, genre fiction asks a lot of important questions and explores a lot of important issues about being human. It reaches more readers than literary fiction and so has the potential to have a greater impact. I think, too often, that critics simplify Tolkienish elves and Rician vampires and Kingian killer dogs as mere escapism. Those elements of the most popular genre works may sound silly, but if you break down those books in a serious way, as a scholar, each one says a lot about many issues that are relevant to the human condition. I'm serious about that. There is always a rich mine of meaning beneath those genre tropes and lots of stuff going on that the reader -- and possibly writer -- are not aware or are aware of but at a deeper subconscious level.

Second, yes, there is a lot of bad writing and stories out there now that perhaps shouldn't have been published -- at least, not in their current form. The freedom to publish anything (pretty much) has allowed people to do just that. I am not concerned AT ALL as a writer or reader. The works that are really bad, or lack any kind of audience, or are scams, will sink to the bottom and disappear. There are millions of books that never see the light of day on Amazon. The works that are quality, or that have an audience or whose authors have business sense, or are legitimate works of art, will rise to the top. Ultimately, the "tsunami of dreck" argument is flawed and is based on an elitist understanding of writing and reading -- as if the great unwashed masses have no idea about what they like or _should_ like and only the experts should be in charge to deciding what the masses will read and what is worthy. There has always been dreck published. There is currently a lot of dreck published. Snooki just got another book deal, I see, from the Big 5 -- the supposed arbiters of quality.

No worries. Dreck gets washed down the sewer of rank on Amazon and elsewhere and is generally not heard of again.

Not having the old crew of gatekeepers has allowed readers to become the new gatekeepers. Readers and bloggers now determine what will succeed, not Manhattan agents and editors looking at spreadsheets and quarterly sales reports. We readers decide what to read, and writers decide what to publish.

The rise of electronic books, online shopping, eReaders and apps and self-publishing are all part of a great democratic development in the art, craft and business of writing and is as important as the printing press, IMO.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> I don't tend to judge other people's work. I don't believe stuff is generally bad. It's just not for me.


This. I wish everyone could adopt that attitude. I look at a book I enjoyed and see that it had mostly 5 and 4 star reviews and I think yes - a great book! I look at the reviews of a book I disliked and see it has just as many 5 and 4 star reviews as the book I did like.

I either have to conclude that all those who gave the great reviews were total idiots who don't know what a good book is from a hole in the ground, or else I have to conclude that in matters of taste, there is no dispute.

I wish people had the maturity to understand that one man's trash is another man's treasure and move on. It's no skin off your back if a book you hated does really well and has lots of readers who loved it. This life is so short. It's great that people find books that please them and make them happy.

What a blessing to be able to write for a living and make readers happy!


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

I have every admiration for writers who outline. I’ve tried outlining and can’t do it. Just. Can’t. Do. It. Been trying to figure out why. This is the best I can come up with:

My stories tend to start with a What if? scenario. E.g. what if over 99% of the world’s population was wiped out by a virus manufactured and disseminated deliberately? Of course, more questions then arise, to some of which I won’t yet know the answers. 

I then create characters and place them into the opening situation suggested by the above scenario. However, I don’t yet know much about these characters so I don’t know at the outset how they are going to react to the circumstances in which they find themselves.

I therefore find it impossible to say what is going to happen in Chapter Two – even to the extent of a one-sentence outline – until I have written Chapter One. That tends to hold true for the entire story, certainly for the novel-length ones.

Terry Pratchett described his writing process in a way that struck a chord with me. It went something like this: he was standing on a hill looking down on a fog-covered town. The tops of some buildings – a church spire, the town hall roof – poked above the fog, but everything else remained invisible. He might be able to see his goal, the roof of a building at the far edge of town, but had no clear idea how he would reach it, except that he knew his path would take him via the church and the town hall.

That’s how my stories look to me at the beginning, except that sometimes no buildings at all are visible from the hill. Nevertheless, I set off down the hill to uncover them. But I can’t plot that journey at the outset because it’s all shrouded in fog.

Not sure if that will make any sense to the plotters, but it’s the best explanation I can come up with as to why I find it impossible to outline.

Whether that affects my writing speed, I don’t know because I have no point of comparison. I average around 10,000 words a week when my writing time is maximised – small potatoes compared to someone like Yoda’s amazing output – but I write around a full-time job that I hate with a passion but that helps pay the bills. 

We’re all different. I wouldn’t recommend my method to any new writer seeking advice, but it works for me. I don’t know of another way that would.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Sam Kates said:


> I have every admiration for writers who outline. I've tried outlining and can't do it. Just. Can't. Do. It. Been trying to figure out why. This is the best I can come up with:
> 
> My stories tend to start with a What if? scenario. E.g. what if over 99% of the world's population was wiped out by a virus manufactured and disseminated deliberately? Of course, more questions then arise, to some of which I won't yet know the answers.
> 
> ...


I sometimes think of creating a story as like viewing a cathedral by the light of a matches. The question in outlining is when you start writing it down.

As for your method: I have worked in a similar, but not _quite_ so blind way. When I "pants" a story, it's usually an adventure. At the start, I know who all the major characters are and what they intend to do, and then set them loose. I usually have an idea what will happen for a couple of chapters into the future, and I also usually have a vague idea about the ending I'm heading for. So for instance, with my YA swashbuckler -- The Adventure of Anna The Great -- I had this idea that the ending would involve a foot chase across the roof of a flaming building. I didn't know where the building was, or what the chase was about. The rest was a "follow your nose until all the questions and tensions are tied up" sort of thing. I only knew what would happen about three chapters in advance at best.

That book got me into grad school, and I got lots of wonderful relationships with editors because of it -- but in those days, nobody wanted swashbucklers in YA. (Also, it kinda fell between seats on YA and MR.)

I will never diss seat-of-the-pants writing. It just doesn't work for every kind of story or writer.

Camille


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## Ainsley (Dec 26, 2013)

YodaRead said:


> I don't tend to judge other people's work. I don't believe stuff is generally bad. It's just not for me. People have to decide what they want out of this endeavor. I want to write entertaining books that aren't going to change the world but do make people laugh. I also want to make a comfortable living. Period. I do this full time. I put 50 hours a week into it. I enjoy what I do. I think April is finally going to be the month where I break the $50,000-a-month threshold.
> The truth is, I don't have time to sit around and look down on other people's work because it takes away from my enjoyment in life. It doesn't make me feel superior. It doesn't help me buy my dream house outright after the first of the year. It certainly doesn't make me happy. Those are the important things to me.
> So, I'm running to Target because I need some house-cleaning supplies and I want the fifth season of Modern Family to pop into the DVD player while I write -- and I might even splurge on Del Taco. Then I'm going to write five chapters -- and since I didn't write yesterday I'm going to write the final five tomorrow -- and then Monday I'm going to start a romantic suspense book and finish it by the end of the week. I'm sure they will both be crap -- but I'm surprisingly okay with it.


I'm down with everything you said but..._ Del Taco?_ Shiver


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> I sometimes think of creating a story as like viewing a cathedral by the light of a matches. The question in outlining is when you start writing it down.
> 
> As for your method: I have worked in a similar, but not _quite_ so blind way. When I "pants" a story, it's usually an adventure. At the start, I know who all the major characters are and what they intend to do, and then set them loose. I usually have an idea what will happen for a couple of chapters into the future, and I also usually have a vague idea about the ending I'm heading for. So for instance, with my YA swashbuckler -- The Adventure of Anna The Great -- I had this idea that the ending would involve a foot chase across the roof of a flaming building. I didn't know where the building was, or what the chase was about. The rest was a "follow your nose until all the questions and tensions are tied up" sort of thing. I only knew what would happen about three chapters in advance at best.
> 
> ...


No - and I would never diss writing with outlines, even though I'm not the kind of writer who uses them (or is ever likely to use them).

Just thinking out loud here: I wonder whether outlines lend themselves better to plot-driven stories than character-driven ones? I can imagine sitting down and outlining the basic plot of a story - in simple terms, X happens, then because that causes Y to occur, Z happens. But how then does the author allow for characters who maybe s/he doesn't yet fully know to take the plot off in unexpected directions? I'm guessing that plotters _do_ allow for such things, but it's one of the main reasons I can't plot - I only come to know my characters as the chapters advance.

Is the secret then, as you hinted at Camille, to know all your main characters before you start writing the novel? (That still wouldn't work for me because I have to write my characters reacting to the story's circumstances and to each other, engaging in conversations, etc before I get to know them properly. Maybe I'm weird...)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Sam Kates said:


> No - and I would never diss writing with outlines, even though I'm not the kind of writer who uses them (or is ever likely to use them).
> 
> Just thinking out loud here: I wonder whether outlines lend themselves better to plot-driven stories than character-driven ones? I can imagine sitting down and outlining the basic plot of a story - in simple terms, X happens, then because that causes Y to occur, Z happens. But how then does the author allow for characters who maybe s/he doesn't yet fully know to take the plot off in unexpected directions? I'm guessing that plotters _do_ allow for such things, but it's one of the main reasons I can't plot - I only come to know my characters as the chapters advance.
> 
> Is the secret then, as you hinted at Camille, to know all your main characters before you start writing the novel? (That still wouldn't work for me because I have to write my characters reacting to the story's circumstances and to each other, engaging in conversations, etc before I get to know them properly. Maybe I'm weird...)


On the surface, outlines would seem to be for plot driven stories -- they are, after all, mainly used to describe plot.

But I don't think that one leads to the other. That is, that adventure story I talked about is very "plot" oriented. If you already have a sense for the plot model of the story, then you don't need an outline to write that kind of story. However, you can easily produce an outline related to such a story. It's pretty quick.

On the other hand, a "plotless" story with many intricately woven character arcs might very well benefit from outlining. As I mentioned in some post above -- very often the most important thing I am doing with outlining is to work out "emotional trajectory" of characters.

Regardless of whether the story is plot driven or not, every interaction changes the direction of the story. Even if you try to force it not to. Outlining is about sorting out those changes of direction -- which is something essential to character.

The other element which I think benefits from outlining are twists. Whether it's a formal mystery or thriller, or a twisty and deceptive literary drama, leading the audience astray requires some planning. And even if you aren't leading the audience astray, but you need to deceive the character, doing that believably can benefit from planning.

Camille


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

daringnovelist said:


> On the surface, outlines would seem to be for plot driven stories -- they are, after all, mainly used to describe plot.
> 
> But I don't think that one leads to the other. That is, that adventure story I talked about is very "plot" oriented. If you already have a sense for the plot model of the story, then you don't need an outline to write that kind of story. However, you can easily produce an outline related to such a story. It's pretty quick.
> 
> ...


I think what I've struggled with a lot when it comes to outlining is that a lot of the 'traditional', often-talked about outlines /feel/ plot-driven? Like this happens, this happens, then that happens, and then this happens - and yes, maybe they're influenced by character decisions, but you can't always really tell that from the outline, especially if you're leaving a lot of room for your pants, so to speak.

For me I had to find a type of outlining that felt like it was at the character-level and getting into what /drives/ characters forwards and I think that's what phase outlining will do. Different types of outlines for different people!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

elizabethsade said:


> For me I had to find a type of outlining that felt like it was at the character-level and getting into what /drives/ characters forwards and I think that's what phase outlining will do. Different types of outlines for different people!


In the end, an outline is just notes. It's whatever you need to remind you of that spark of greatness that blossomed in your head as you thought of this. I suspect that for a lot of people what happens is the thing that reminds them how it happened, or why it happened. (btw, WHY is a great thing to have as a formal part of your outline, especially when you are writing about characters who are a mystery to the other characters.)

Camille


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Still working through why I find it impossible to outline - it seems that a more than passing acquaintance with your main characters from the outset is advisable to be able to effectively outline. 

Heck, I'm working on the last instalment of a trilogy that will come in at around 300,000 words all told and the motivations of one of my main characters are still unclear. She has been in the tale since very near the beginning of the first book and I know she will have an important part to play before the end, but I have absolutely no idea what that part will be. I'm just over a third of the way through the final book and I'm not in the slightest bit concerned - her role will become clear when it's time for her to enact it. 

Wouldn't it be a boring world if we were all the same?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Sam Kates said:


> Still working through why I find it impossible to outline - it seems that a more than passing acquaintance with your main characters from the outset is advisable to be able to effectively outline.


Not necessarily. I find that I develop my characters to fit the plot. As in: I need certain things to happen and for those things to happen I need people with certain personalities.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Lydniz said:


> Not necessarily. I find that I develop my characters to fit the plot. As in: I need certain things to happen and for those things to happen I need people with certain personalities.


This is how it works for me too, and a character needs the background to support his/her personality. For instance, generally, friendly, trusting and outgoing doesn't come from an abusive background.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Lydniz said:


> Not necessarily. I find that I develop my characters to fit the plot. As in: I need certain things to happen and for those things to happen I need people with certain personalities.


I think that's also what we were saying earlier - that, at least on the face of it, outlining lends itself better to plot-driven works. But if the work is more character- than plot-driven, you'll need to know the characters in some detail to write an adequate outline. Or I could be getting this hopelessly wrong...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Sam Kates said:


> I think that's also what we were saying earlier - that, at least on the face of it, outlining lends itself better to plot-driven works. But if the work is more character- than plot-driven, you'll need to know the characters in some detail to write an adequate outline. Or I could be getting this hopelessly wrong...


No, you're probably right. I write mystery which is by definition plot-driven, so first I think of a plot and then I think up some characters to make the plot work.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been writing fiction off and on for nigh on twenty years, but I just do it in the way that feels natural without thinking about how I do it. It's only when coming across threads like this that I try to analyse (if only a little) why I do something in a certain why. Then I realise that I know little about how other writers do their stuff. Not that it matters - I'm not looking for new methods of working (though I wish someone would come up with a way of creating a thirty-hour day) - but I do find threads like this most fascinating.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I think some of it also has to do with HOW you were taught to write. I am of a generation that was instructed from elementary school in a specific writing process : prewriting (brainstorm/outline), rough draft, first draft, peer editing, polished product. This was from 3rd grade on. During many exams, again, as early as elementary school for the Literacy Passport Test which you HAD to pass to move on to middle school, you were given a prompt, and 45 minutes to write your essay. I was taught to spend 5 minutes "organizing my ideas" on scratch paper.

Later on, I was taught to use notecards, detailed outlines. For every major paper I had to turn in, fiction or nonfiction, I had to submit an OUTLINE to be approved by the teacher before I was allowed to write my first draft. It's just ingrained in me that I cannot write unless I at least JOT some ideas down. LOL


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Sam Kates said:


> I think that's also what we were saying earlier - that, at least on the face of it, outlining lends itself *better *to plot-driven works. But if the work is more character- than plot-driven, you'll need to know the characters in some detail to write an adequate outline. Or I could be getting this hopelessly wrong...


I don't know about "better," but I outline for my romances, and while they have more action in them than some, they also have quite a few reviews describing them as character driven. Yes, I have to decide on and know my major characters before I write the outline, but that was true for my mystery too. I think it's in this thread above I mentioned reading the book by Elizabeth George where she sets out her process, which includes an outline that's beyond anything I'd ever consider and is as long as some books all by itself. Yes, she writes mysteries, but at least IMO her characters drive her stories. Guess I really don't agree that the kind of story would dictate whether or not an outline would be useful. Obviously the kind of writer does.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think some of it also has to do with HOW you were taught to write. I am of a generation that was instructed from elementary school in a specific writing process : prewriting (brainstorm/outline), rough draft, first draft, peer editing, polished product. This was from 3rd grade on. During many exams, again, as early as elementary school for the Literacy Passport Test which you HAD to pass to move on to middle school, you were given a prompt, and 45 minutes to write your essay. I was taught to spend 5 minutes "organizing my ideas" on scratch paper.
> 
> Later on, I was taught to use notecards, detailed outlines. For every major paper I had to turn in, fiction or nonfiction, I had to submit an OUTLINE to be approved by the teacher before I was allowed to write my first draft. It's just ingrained in me that I cannot write unless I at least JOT some ideas down. LOL


Maybe showing my age now, but I don't recall ever being taught how to write, other than being instructed upon required elements of certain types of formal writing at various stages of education. I certainly was never taught how to write outlines (that I can recall), which perhaps partly explains why they are such foreign creatures to me.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

ellenoc said:


> Guess I really don't agree that the kind of story would dictate whether or not an outline would be useful. Obviously the kind of writer does.


Much of what I'm saying is out-loud wondering, kind of feeling my way. I don't disagree with what you're saying.


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## Donald Rump (Dec 10, 2013)

I vomit words onto the page. Works great!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Donald Rump said:


> I vomit words onto the page. Works great!


I kinda liken my outlining and writing as vomiting onto a framework and then cleaning up the mess and seeing which chunks stick.

Erm...yeah. Only less gross.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

My book, after it's fourth edit, looks like a word salad that has been vomited on to a Scrivener file in the wrong order.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I was never taught to write either, other than from printing to writing, so I do both together, (backhand at that) when I use a pen. I've been teaching myself for many years and now I'm giving outlining a shot.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*passes out airsick bags*


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think some of it also has to do with HOW you were taught to write. I am of a generation that was instructed from elementary school in a specific writing process : prewriting (brainstorm/outline), rough draft, first draft, peer editing, polished product. This was from 3rd grade on. During many exams, again, as early as elementary school for the Literacy Passport Test which you HAD to pass to move on to middle school, you were given a prompt, and 45 minutes to write your essay. I was taught to spend 5 minutes "organizing my ideas" on scratch paper.
> 
> Later on, I was taught to use notecards, detailed outlines. For every major paper I had to turn in, fiction or nonfiction, I had to submit an OUTLINE to be approved by the teacher before I was allowed to write my first draft. It's just ingrained in me that I cannot write unless I at least JOT some ideas down. LOL


That's an interesting poiint. But if I'm honest, I used to write the essay first, and then produce an outline and rough draft to hand in.

That might be why I am so passionate about outlining no (for me, I quite understand it doesn't work for everyone.) I'm like a reformed smoker.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Not kidding, they are teaching my KINDERGARTNER the writing process. First, they talk their ideas. Then, they draw a picture. Then they write their sentences!! Yes, SENTENCES. My daughter is in regular public school in Connecticut, and she comes home with "books" she wrote that they laminate and keep in their class library and pass back and forth. They started the year with KidWriting (writing the sounds they hear, an adult translates), now they are working on learning to spell words correctly anyway they can (like find it in the classroom, on the book they are writing a freaking book report on, etc). 

It's simple stuff, sure. But she knows you organize your thoughts, then you write, then you edit. Her latest book was on dancers. Dancers wear ballet shoes. The shoes help them dance. Dancers dance on stage. People watch the shows. 

My husband and I are truly blown away. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to write, but in my experience, I find it easier to feel free to put my ideas on paper because I was trained to do that from the get-go then other writers my same age who were not (different school districts/states I guess), and they write with no real goal or purpose for a scene or chapter and then get upset when it's not what they want. I too tip my hat off to pantsers, I just can't write a scene unless I know the objective before hand. 

Eleanorbereford : I did the same thing until I HAD to turn in the outline first. Then I just wrote that on the bus. But for the timed essays, even in college, I always jotted down my main keywords or ideas.


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## I_Love_Vampires (Dec 1, 2014)

I think that is fantastic that your child is being taught the importance of writing. In ancient times, many countries regarded literature and poetry and art as important life skills, equal to maths and science.  So many kids today hate reading. That's not a good sign.


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## Scott_SA (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm starting to think I need to look at outlining like a long car drive at night.

I know where I'm leaving from and where I want to end up. I know who is in the car (my characters). I have a good idea where we'll stop for gas and food (my major plot points). I may even be looking forward to a few sights during the trip (my minor plot points and scene ideas).

But, somewhere along the trip, there will almost always be detours. One of my passengers will want to stop off to visit a friend, we'll have a flat tire, or a bridge will be out.

As long as I have my headlights on, and can see a bit of the road in front of us, I can keep driving. It probably won't be the exact route I planned, but we'll eventually get to our destination.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Either way we're making up the story as we go, it's just with outlines, we have a higher view, and we're more likely to change things we've already written since we devote far fewer words to each scene than would be devoted in a rough draft.

I really like outlining itself (anything to put off writing just that much longer), but I find it slows me down significantly, and I end up spending more time editing because of the temporal disturbance of knowing in advance what's going to occur.

Do any of you outliners outline other things? For instance, when I started writing this post, all I knew was I was going to post something about how outlining is drafting, but from an airplane. Everything else is as it comes to me.

As for school, I think there's far too much importance/blame put on it. I went to K-3 (with spotty attendance), then 5th grade, then 8th-9th, then a little of 11th, then a little of 12th. I rarely did any of my homework, and usually would shirk classwork as well. I didn't graduate high school. I ended up starting college at 19, and got a degree in computer science, and also a job as a programmer at $30/hr while I was still in my junior year. By graduation I was at $50/hr.

Other than having not-so-good handwriting and being a terrible speller, I'm doing better than any of the friends I knew who went to school regularly, and indeed, most people who went to school. I think there's something to be said for being outside of tradition. It really demonstrates how there's not only one way to do something.

That last part sounds like bragging, but I'm just pointing out that doing things the way everyone else does them is a great way to be ordinary.


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## elizabethsade (Feb 3, 2015)

funthebear said:


> Do any of you outliners outline other things? For instance, when I started writing this post, all I knew was I was going to post something about how outlining is drafting, but from an airplane. Everything else is as it comes to me.


I'm apparently a newly discovered outliner (I'm quite fond of phase outlines so far) and I outline my academic papers to death. Mostly because I can't juggle 20+ papers and citations in my head before putting it down on paper.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I should stress that I'm not afraid to change an outline -- especially when I find something better to do. I guess, in a weird way, you could say I'm an outliner who is open to panting. When I make _some_ changes (especially near the end), I don't go and change the outline. For example, I'm five chapters away from finishing my WIP. I should finish Sunday. As I was finishing chapter thirty, I decided to change the outcome for one of my characters and make her a cohort. Originally, I thought it would be good to keep her around as a foil in future books. As other things transgressed, conversation evolved, etc., I decided I don't need her to be a foil down the road. The characters have moved beyond her. So, I'm making her a partner in the crime as an added reveal. Everyone already thought she was evil, the swerve was having someone else being a culprit. Now I'm adding a swerve back -- and some funny scenes to give her what she deserves. I don't have to change a thing. I'm willing to change things as they happen. That's what I love about this business.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Mark Tyson said:


> So you write one book at a time in each series. In other words you don't write 5000 on series 1 book 2 then write some of series 2 book 3 etc. you write one at a time and just have some kind of output schedule? I am very interested in knowing because I sometimes fall into the trap of wanting to write 1000 words a day on three different novels thinking I will have them done faster.


Sorry, I missed this one. No, I don't write more than one work at a time. I've done it a couple of times. It doesn't work for me. Why? I have a lot of different worlds in my head. Right now I have nine different worlds in my head. Three of them haven't gone into production yet, but they have outlines. I cannot jump from world to world. I have different cities. I have different settings. My characters don't all look alike. If I jump from world to world, I slow down and I make mistakes. It's officially one world at at time for me.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

Characters and plot are two sides of the same coin.

A good plot consists of what the characters do because of who they are.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

funthebear said:


> Do any of you outliners outline other things?


You bet. For instance, I interviewed someone for several hours for an article for my dog breed club's magazine. Faced with distilling an article of the length I needed from that, my mind boggled. So I made an outline of every topic we covered, deleted those I decided not to include, and rearranged what was left until I had what seemed like a logical order. And then wrote.


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## eleanorberesford (Dec 22, 2014)

I didn't outline any of my essays. I didn't even outline my Masters thesis. The not very flattering truth is that I was arrogant enough to know I could get top marks without it, and I assumed conventional rules only applied to other people. Outlining first is new to me, and something I was incredibly resistant to.

Mind you, if I'd outlined my PhD thesis, I might have actually finished it instead of getting hopelessly lost in the useless quest for perfection. It might have been the stimulus needed to stop endlessly researching and rewriting and move on to the next chapter, then the next.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

The writing process. This brings me back to the idea that writing is a skill, and more importantly, both outlining and pantsing are skills.

I pantsed out all my novels, each one coming out better than the one before. I then repace them, figuring out what plots I'm really interested in and dropping the dull ones, moving scenes about, eliminating dull patches, writing punchy additions, or even slowing overly quick scenes, making the whole novel work as a single piece.

My point here is that after six novels, I've developed pantsing skills. If I had used outlining or pre-writing, I would have developed those skills instead. The more that you do it, whatever method that you use, the easier that method gets.

These days, I do some outlining. It's more like an index-card sized checklist of where I'm heading. I don't do more than that because I often have to rewrite the cards, so I don't like to put too much time into it. My characters love wrecking my stories.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

The neat thing about outlines is that they can be as detailed or as sparse as you need them to be. They can be different for every project. They can morph or be discarded as you go along.

It's up to you how you write. Your process is your own. Fast, slow, outline, pants. Whatever works for you. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. The only way you can be wrong is if you aren't open to learning and growing as a writer.

I write outlines with as much detail as I have. If I don't write stuff down, I forget it. That makes me mad and sad. Like Yoda, I'm open to change as the work progresses. I'm not rigidly tied into everything I've outlined. Sometimes the gray matter is working hard behind the scenes and comes up with better ideas, or better ways to express the ones I have.

When I first started writing, lo these many years ago (like, half a century), I was a pantster. I just sat and started writing. Of course, I had loads of unfinished work that has been lost to the winds of time, which I was likely never going to finish because I'd lost track of the story. Now I have outlines and all sorts of notes and research compiled, so that I can at least keep the idea alive and know I can finish what I start.

But, that works for me. Think, study, research and learn what works for you.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

To me, writing without an outline is like trying to build a house without blueprints. You can do it, and it is entirely possible for it to come out great. It's also possible for you to do it without wasting time and money tearing down and rebuilding walls along the way when you get a better idea.

I see the outline as the blueprint. I build according to the blueprint, but the decorating and furnishing is done on the fly. I can still knock down and move a wall during or after the construction, but I'm less likely to need to if I have a good idea of what I want as a finished product before I start.

What it boils down to is that although I could write a good book by pantsing, I'm more likely to write a great book by outlining. But that is just me.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I've been trying to outline a book for the past week, without success. Last night I began a story without an outline, and it's well on its way.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I used to write computer programming books. How to code a programming language, and such. I couldn't have done it without outlines. The presentation of information is structured to teach and build lessons upon prior lessons. Outlines helped me keep straight in my mind the sequence and organization of lessons. And besides, when I was pitching to a publisher, they always wanted to see a proposed TOC.

Fiction? No outlines so far. The story is usually a chapter ahead of me, nothing beyond there except a vague idea of how things are going to turn out. The characters in my head speak and act extemporaneously. They ad lib the script. The process often involves a bit of backtracking and rewriting when I find myself in a corner. Or get a better idea. Which often comes when I wake up.

I don't pretend to understand the process or even recommend it. If it stops working, I'll try outlining. If that doesn't work, I'll check into a nursing home and read the wallpaper.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

I don't outline although I wish I did. With my current novella, I did an outline, and I've deviated so completely from it, it's pointless. I DO find it helpful to sit down and summarize what I WANT to write for that day, a pseudo outline of sorts. This has been a helpful exercise ... read it in the book, how to go from 2K to 10K:

http://www.amazon.com/2k-10k-Writing-Faster-Better-ebook/dp/B009NKXAWS/


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## Jenna_Elle (Mar 15, 2015)

I didn't outline my first novel when I started writing it. But I don't think I could have finished it if I didn't create an outline after having written the first draft.

I'm working on my second novel now (and participating in Camp Nano) and am starting with an outline. Hopefully I'll be able to get this one done quicker and more efficiently than my last


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## CJAnderson (Oct 29, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> I don't tend to judge other people's work. I don't believe stuff is generally bad. It's just not for me. People have to decide what they want out of this endeavor. I want to write entertaining books that aren't going to change the world but do make people laugh. I also want to make a comfortable living. Period. I do this full time. I put 50 hours a week into it. I enjoy what I do. I think April is finally going to be the month where I break the $50,000-a-month threshold.
> The truth is, I don't have time to sit around and look down on other people's work because it takes away from my enjoyment in life. It doesn't make me feel superior. It doesn't help me buy my dream house outright after the first of the year. It certainly doesn't make me happy. Those are the important things to me.
> So, I'm running to Target because I need some house-cleaning supplies and I want the fifth season of Modern Family to pop into the DVD player while I write -- and I might even splurge on Del Taco. Then I'm going to write five chapters -- and since I didn't write yesterday I'm going to write the final five tomorrow -- and then Monday I'm going to start a romantic suspense book and finish it by the end of the week. I'm sure they will both be crap -- but I'm surprisingly okay with it.


What is the price tag on the dream house?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

CJAnderson said:


> What is the price tag on the dream house?


It depends. Right now I'm leaning toward new construction, so for everything I want in the area I want probably $300,000-$350,000. My other options are buying a big house on the lake at foreclosure auction, which is definitely something I haven't ruled out. I also would really like something with a walkout basement because I want a cool party patio area with a saltwater pool. It really depends on what is available when I seriously start looking. It is still one year away. I want to be in my new house next summer. I'm a hoarding squirrel right now.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Livin' the dream, YodaRead!  Thanks for the inspiration.


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

YodaRead said:


> It depends. Right now I'm leaning toward new construction, so for everything I want in the area I want probably $300,000-$350,000. My other options are buying a big house on the lake at foreclosure auction, which is definitely something I haven't ruled out. I also would really like something with a walkout basement because I want a cool party patio area with a saltwater pool. It really depends on what is available when I seriously start looking. It is still one year away. I want to be in my new house next summer. I'm a hoarding squirrel right now.


You'd be way over half a mil if the tax man would give some of that back


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

Nic said:


> ...but I know enough genre and fiction writers who also have such a volume and in no way produce crap. ...


*Yes* to this.
Some members of our critique group also get together for a 2-hour write-in on Wednesday mornings. We sit at the same table, pound away on our laptops and don't talk to each other. At the end, we compare our word counts. I've been averaging 1600 good-quality words per hour (I usually have a brief outline). Another person averages 750 wph, but polishes each word and each sentence as she goes along. Another averages *above *2500 wph and even so, her work usually needs only very minor edits (we hate her  -the sound of her furious keyboard is simultaneously jealously-inducing and inspiring.)


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Scott_SA said:


> I'm starting to think I need to look at outlining like a long car drive at night.
> 
> I know where I'm leaving from and where I want to end up. I know who is in the car (my characters). I have a good idea where we'll stop for gas and food (my major plot points). I may even be looking forward to a few sights during the trip (my minor plot points and scene ideas).
> 
> ...


Love this analogy!!


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## TiffanyLambert (Mar 7, 2015)

I love outlines. I write more when I have one. The one I'm working on now, I mapped out 21 chapters. Then as I was re-reading them, I realized 4 of the chapters needed to be from a different character's viewpoint. It turned my story into something far deeper. Sometimes it helps me to look at the skeleton of a project from a big picture POV and then smaller details/scenes/dialogue etc will pop into my head.


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## Charlie Ward (Sep 29, 2014)

I've started lots of novels, but I never really finished one until I outlined it.


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