# I really don't want short stories...



## cork_dork_mom (Mar 24, 2011)

Is there an easy way to see if a book is a novella or short story? I purchased a book thinking it was a full length book... when I'd read for a short while and noticed I was 50% done I was surprised. Went back to look at the description on Amazon and found in one of the reviews that it was a short story. Shouldn't this be in the product description?


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Sometimes it's mentioned in the product description but it's not required so sometimes it's not. If there's any reviews as well, it's best to read them and see if there's any clues about the length of the book. 

But the best way to spot a short story or novella is to look at the file size (and sometimes also there's a page count). In general, the longer the book, the bigger the file size... the thing that can throw it off though is if there's images in it (even if there's just some kind of embellishment or little graphic at the start of a chapter or something).

Also, look at the categories it's filed under (scroll down to where it says "Look for Similar Items by Category") - if it's in "Kindle Singles" or "Short Stories", it's a short story. 

Unfortunately, I still occasionally come across some that I just can't tell how long they are though. This is partly why I think indie authors shouldn't price full length novels at $0.99 (unless it's a limited time sale) - because it can be difficult to tell them apart from Kindle "singles" aka short stories.


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## ajbarnett (Apr 11, 2011)

I agree, the author or publisher should ensure it is in the product description. It simply isn't fair to put a single story out without explaining first.
The thing is, you only get burned once. After that, you simply don't trust that author again.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

i look at file size.  if the file size is small, i'll sample the book.  if the sample is only a few locations, i know it's a short story and pass on it.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

history_lover said:


> Sometimes it's mentioned in the product description but it's not required so sometimes it's not. If there's any reviews as well, it's best to read them and see if there's any clues about the length of the book.
> 
> But the best way to spot a short story or novella is to look at the file size (and sometimes also there's a page count). In general, the longer the book, the bigger the file size... the thing that can throw it off though is if there's images in it (even if there's just some kind of embellishment or little graphic at the start of a chapter or something).
> 
> ...


File size is a tough one. Usually this works, but if there is artwork included in a short story, it's going to look longer (even if the artwork is only a shot of the cover--and that is common because of the problem of covers not showing up.)

I don't sell singles except when I sell to a magazine, but it has been touted long and hard: Mention in the product description that it's a short story or novella (or whatever length.)

The big publishers aren't good about it either. I almost bought a novella by mistake--but luckily read the reviews and someone mentioned it was a long short story.

I also came across a short story the other day put out by a big publisher--8.95. EIGHT NINETY FIVE. I couldn't believe it.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Content removed circa September 2018 after realizing this forum was bought by VerticalScope -- a foreign corporation with seemingly suspicious motives and a bad attitude apparently attempting to grab rights retroactively. They can have the rights to this statement!


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

There's always a lot of discussion about this in the writer's cafe.  Most feeling that Amazon should provide that information.  But many indie short story authors will include a page or word count in their description.  It's in their best interest to do so otherwise you'd run the risk of a negative review.

If the short story was published through a publisher the author may not have had any say in their description.  Also, if the author is new, there's a good chance they didn't even think to add a word count, not realizing it would be a problem.  Obviously, if it's spam, that's a separate issue.  Just don't write the author off right away.

File size is a good indication.  A 5,000 word story with a cover will be about 100KB.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Alain Gomez said:


> There's always a lot of discussion about this in the writer's cafe. Most feeling that Amazon should provide that information. But many indie short story authors will include a page or word count in their description. It's in their best interest to do so otherwise you'd run the risk of a negative review.
> 
> If the short story was published through a publisher the author may not have had any say in their description. Also, if the author is new, there's a good chance they didn't even think to add a word count, not realizing it would be a problem. Obviously, if it's spam, that's a separate issue. Just don't write the author off right away.
> 
> File size is a good indication. A 5,000 word story with a cover will be about 100KB.


Alain, for those of us who still can't figure out word count, how many pages is a 5,000 word story?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

scarlet said:


> Alain, for those of us who still can't figure out word count, how many pages is a 5,000 word story?


About 20. But that begs the question of trade paperback, mass market...but it's about 20 in any case. 

50k is the equivalent of one of those older harlequins. (I believe they ran between 50 and 65k and I base that on their submission guidelines.) They also did a few where they combined to shorter "novelletes" into one novel. I think those ran about 40k per story, but there were two if them in the book.

The average mass market paperback is 85k. That runs about 350 pages or so.

Fantasy and sci/fi tend to be longer with 85 being the bottom end and 120k the top end. The top end is not arbitrary--you get larger than 120k words and you have trouble with glue bindings. Fantasy average is a bit higher than other mass market and I think runs about 90 to 95 depending on publisher preferences. For example, Baen in their guidelines says they prefer 100k. I think TOR may have had something similar at one time but haven't looked in a while.

Chick-lit and some romance average: 72 to 85K. (Again some of this comes from guidelines where they tell the writer what they are looking for.) (250 to 350 pages) And yes, I'm ballparking here because fonts differ, page sizes can be different and so on.

So for most people they are used to a book that is at least 70 to call it a novel.

45 to 65k is going to feel like a short novel, but still probably feel like a novel unless you're used to reading behemoth sci/fi.

FWIW. It's an ever changing scene really, but if it's under 45k that's where you should probably be letting people know in some manner the number of pages...or I guess I should say, that's where I'd like to know.


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## Bryan Cohen (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm about to release a novella, around 20,000 words, and while I'll certainly mention that it's not a full-length novel, how do you think I should specify in the description? I mean, I don't want to turn people off by saying 'it's short' twenty times .


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

Bryan Cohen said:


> I'm about to release a novella, around 20,000 words, and while I'll certainly mention that it's not a full-length novel, how do you think I should specify in the description? I mean, I don't want to turn people off by saying 'it's short' twenty times .


Just say exactly that - "novella - approx 20,000 words". That way people know exactly what they are buying. I bought what I thought was a novel recently and it turned out to be only about 20,000 words. Nothing wrong with that - if that's what I'd been expecting, but I wasn't.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

cork_dork_mom said:


> Is there an easy way to see if a book is a novella or short story? I purchased a book thinking it was a full length book... when I'd read for a short while and noticed I was 50% done I was surprised. Went back to look at the description on Amazon and found in one of the reviews that it was a short story. Shouldn't this be in the product description?


It should definitely be mentioned in the product description but sadly it often isn't. Sometimes you can tell by looking at the file size but that too can be deceptive.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Unless it's an "e only" book that doesn't have a print edition at all, there's usually something in the product description that tells you how many pages.  Scroll down the page a bit to the "Product Details" section.

If not, the thing to do is get the sample and see how long it is.  A sample is usually about 10% of the full book.  3000-5000 locations is usually an 'average' length book for me.  So the sample should be 300-500 locations.

Or just buy the book and see how many locations it has. . .press menu and it will show at the bottom of the screen (assuming a K3 here). Be sure to check this right away, and if it's shorter than you expected or that you feel is appropriate for the cost, contact Amazon and return it.  AND post feedback on the books page so that it will be feedback for the publisher too.

You can also gauge how long a book is by how long the row of dots is under the book title on the home page.  The more dots, the longer.  Shorts usually only have about a half dozen dots . . .the row's only a half inch long or shorter.  A novellete will have maybe an inch and a half of them.  Two inches or more is a longer book.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Unless it's an "e only" book that doesn't have a print edition at all, there's usually something in the product description that tells you how many pages. Scroll down the page a bit to the "Product Details" section.
> 
> If not, the thing to do is get the sample and see how long it is. A sample is usually about 10% of the full book. 3000-5000 locations is usually an 'average' length book for me. So the sample should be 300-500 locations.
> 
> ...


Uhm. I've seen somewhere on Amazon's pages that the sample is 5 percent of the book...(Not that I know one way or the other, but I've seen this on the KDP help boards a few times. Not by anyone official...)


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

one other suggestion, see if the author is a member here.  search for their threads, most of our authors post if stuff is not novel length, or at least you can PM them.

And Maria, I'm pretty sure (from empirical evidence) that the amazon sample is 10% of the total locations of a book.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I didn't even realize Amazon didn't have the word counts on there! My publishers put the descriptions up, I think, and over at All Romance Ebooks, they have the word counts, so I guess I missed it that Amazon did not.

Anyway, I went over and made sure all mine are appropriately labelled - even my full length novel, in case people weren't buying it because they weren't sure if it was short or not. 

Thanks for the heads up!


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

scarlet said:


> Alain, for those of us who still can't figure out word count, how many pages is a 5,000 word story?


This varies and depends on font size and which e-reader you are using. But 250 words per page is usually the average. So a 5,000 word story will be _about_ 20 electronic pages.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

scarlet said:


> one other suggestion, see if the author is a member here. search for their threads, most of our authors post if stuff is not novel length, or at least you can PM them.
> 
> And Maria, I'm pretty sure (from empirical evidence) that the amazon sample is 10% of the total locations of a book.


That works for me. I actually have no idea; I've just seen the 5 percent thrown around (a lot).


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> File size is a tough one. Usually this works, but if there is artwork included in a short story, it's going to look longer (even if the artwork is only a shot of the cover--and that is common because of the problem of covers not showing up.)


Yes, I did mention it doesn't always work but it can help in some cases - if the file size is particularly small, you know it's a short story/novella.

If you're really desperate you could also google the author/title/publisher and see if they have a website that will be more informative.


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## gryeates (Feb 28, 2011)

Personally, I've been using this entry from wikipedia as my guide for when it comes to judging whether a project is novel, novella or a short story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_count

As people have noted, definitions can tend to be all over the place otherwise.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

I have been burned by this, too.  I do think an author should put it into the product description.  It seems like a simple enough thing to do.


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## Adam Kisiel (Jun 20, 2011)

I think that authors should say upfront if it is a novella or short story. But I have read some wonderful short stories, worth well 0,99 $.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Content removed circa September 2018 after realizing this forum was bought by VerticalScope -- a foreign corporation with seemingly suspicious motives and a bad attitude apparently attempting to grab rights retroactively. They can have the rights to this statement!


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Crenel said:


> Interesting, thanks for the link. I had not seen that before. Looks fairly reasonable, although 40,000 seems low to me for a novel, and I still think of my "Journey to Yandol" story (at approx. 10,000 words) as just a short story.
> 
> After reading this thread, I'm thinking I should go update my description for my collection of short stories and put the word counts in, to avoid any ambiguity. I figured "collection of short stories" was pretty descriptive, but since the length varies a lot (and expectations vary a lot), I guess it's not really descriptive enough.


Crenel, with a collection, you're fine. It's when people sell ONE story and don't mark it as a short work that is irksome.


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## Tim C. Taylor (May 17, 2011)

In my very first Kindle book I was burned the same way. I thought I was buying a novel (the price was $2.99) but it was a 4,000 word short story. I feel sorry for the author as I'm sure it wasn't her fault. If you buy from Smashwords, it gives a word count. I don't see any good reason why Amazon shouldn't do the same. In the world of physical bookshops, people learned to understand page counts and don't know really have a grasp for word count. But word count makes more sense in the world of eReaders and I reckon that will be the metric for e-book size that the next generation will use.

When I started publishing short stories, I learned from my experience and put the size (short story, novelette or novella) directly into the book's _title_. That's the only way I can think of to guarantee a potential customer will understand what they are buying. As a publisher I can't afford for anyone to read one of my books and feel cheated because it is 'only' a short story.

In fact with my next batch of publications I will include in the description a word count and an equivalent count of paperback pages.

Tim


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

history_lover said:


> Yes, I did mention it doesn't always work but it can help in some cases - if the file size is particularly small, you know it's a short story/novella.
> 
> If you're really desperate you could also google the author/title/publisher and see if they have a website that will be more informative.


I'm overly sensitive to the file size at the moment because the short story that was picked up by a publisher--he did an AWESOME job--but it happens to include 3 illustrations, plus the cover inside the short. So...the file size is 200k plus. (That said, it clearly says it is a short story in the description). But I'm still kinda sensitive to it because once I saw how great those illustrations looked inside, I wanted to illustrate one of the short collections I have. And that would really throw the number off.

But yes, I do glance at that number...probably first when I'm looking. If I see it is short, and I'm not in the mood for short, I move on.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Bryan Cohen said:


> I'm about to release a novella, around 20,000 words, and while I'll certainly mention that it's not a full-length novel, how do you think I should specify in the description? I mean, I don't want to turn people off by saying 'it's short' twenty times .


Bryan, I have a 23,000 word novella and I wrote exactly that in the Product Description. So far no complaints.

Sometimes a short story can seem longer too if a lot of extra things are included in the end - excerpt to novels, cover images etc. Put a few chapter excerpts from the author's other books, plus the covers and all of a sudden the short story or novella ends when you're only halfway through the kindle file! Very frustrating. Always check the other reviews first if there are any.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Content removed circa September 2018 after realizing this forum was bought by VerticalScope -- a foreign corporation with seemingly suspicious motives and a bad attitude apparently attempting to grab rights retroactively. They can have the rights to this statement!


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

I've seen several mentions here of getting "burned." How can you get burned if Amazon allows you to return it? And it's not like you have to package the book up, drive to the post office and mail it back to get a refund. Of all the ways to get "burned" in the world, e-books are at the bottom of my list.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I've seen several mentions here of getting "burned." How can you get burned if Amazon allows you to return it? And it's not like you have to package the book up, drive to the post office and mail it back to get a refund. Of all the ways to get "burned" in the world, e-books are at the bottom of my list.


  You'd be surprised how angry people can get.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I've seen several mentions here of getting "burned." How can you get burned if Amazon allows you to return it? And it's not like you have to package the book up, drive to the post office and mail it back to get a refund. Of all the ways to get "burned" in the world, e-books are at the bottom of my list.


Still an unnecessary inconvenience and I think part of the reason people get annoyed is because they feel like they've been "duped" into buying something. It's the principle of the matter.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

I'd think the price might be a good tip-off as most short stories, which are not part of an anthology, are 99c. Anything at that price, I check to see the length in the Amazon description to be sure it's not a short story. I can't get into the characters in a short story to care enough about them.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

The file size isn't a good guide, because the book cover image can take up a LOT of that.

I write single short stories. I price them at 99c, and because their are novels for that price, I make sure to clearly label each product description with the words "short story" and the exact length (5,000 words or 20 book pages). But one of my stories at that length is 738KB because of the cover.

You must label clearly so readers know exactly what they are getting.

I can't understand writers that don't do it. If a reader buys it, and feels cheated, they will one star you (and tell all their friends NOT to buy it). Pretty much the opposite of the reaction you are hoping to achieve.

I haven't had any complaints yet.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

This has been interesting reading.

Does everyone think 99c for a full length novel is too cheap?

I'm trying to build readership, so am happy enough to stick with that price for a while for my first novel (125,000 words). As to people thinking it must therefore be cheap rubbish, they can always sample it or read the product description - just as they can for other listed titles in an effort to work out if they are shorts, novellas or full length novels. 

I like the idea of the story type being indicated in the product listing.

Has anyone ever heard of someone offering suggestions to Amazon that they have accepted an implemented?


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Colin: 

If we can't get action from Amazon on spam listings and things like that, I would say there is little chance of this.

I think the onus is on the author here (and probably should be anyway).


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I put the approx number of pages at the beginning of my story description on all 10 stories and I also include (Short Story) with the titles, so there is no doubt as to what the reader is buying. There is no need for Amazon to do this, all short story authors can do this. I include both an American version and a UK English version in my short story ebooks, with internal links for the customer to make the choice, so file size wouldn't work with me. The page count I state is for one of the versions and not both. I have had no complaints and no returns, so this works for me.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't think readers should have to search around to try to figure out how long something is before buying. I included the number of Kindle locations in the descriptions for the ebook of 2 of my 3 books - forgot for the 3d and need to get that fixed. For my short story, however, I started the description with: SHORT STORY (6,000 words, 22 pages). I also have "a Short Story" in the title. Maybe that's overkill, but I'd heard how people can miss more subtle indications and how angry readers can get if they feel they were wrongly lured into a short story.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

cork_dork_mom said:


> Is there an easy way to see if a book is a novella or short story? I purchased a book thinking it was a full length book... when I'd read for a short while and noticed I was 50% done I was surprised. Went back to look at the description on Amazon and found in one of the reviews that it was a short story. Shouldn't this be in the product description?


Many product descriptions include a word count and page count. Without those, you can try to guess by the file size, but that's not a great indicator.


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## Bryan Cohen (Aug 28, 2010)

CJArcher said:


> Bryan, I have a 23,000 word novella and I wrote exactly that in the Product Description. So far no complaints.


Thanks C.J. 

I just ended up including it in the title of the work itself. I saw Amanda Hocking do that and I figured it was the most upfront method.


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

I do think that Amazon could do something simple but more clear to indicate length of a book. This doesn't just happen to me on the Kindle. I've also ordered paperbacks that turned out to be mere pamphlets, and I was annoyed. I know the info is there, but it isn't prominent, and you have to know how to interpret it. 

In many independent ebook publisher platforms, stories are much more clearly labeled (and priced) by length.


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