# How some are scamming Kindle Unlimited and maximizing their payout per book/15 year old scams KU (ME



## Guest (Feb 23, 2016)

The reason I mention this scam is the fact that dummies like me and probably you who follow rules went from making 0.5 cent per page read in KU2 to 0.4 cent. Where is the rest of the money going? To scammers. Does Amazon care? No! they pay out of a fixed pot of money and couldn't care less how the money is distributed.

I call it a scam, but please note that it is not against Amazon TOS to use this trick to maximize your KU payout per book.

Basic point: Amazon cannot see how many pages a reader has actually read. Amazon can only see at what page the reader stopped reading.

So if I have a box set in which I gather 10 of my stories and a fan only reads story 1 in this box set, I get paid for story 1. If the fan only wishes to read story 10, then I get paid for all 10 stories, even though he only reads 1 story.

In essence Amazon cannot see where you began reading, but can only see where you stopped reading. So If I have a box set with 10000 pages and someone borrows this box set and only reads 1 page, namely page 8888 I get paid for 8888 pages. If he only reads page 10, I get paid for 10 pages.

Box sets are very hot because 1 KU borrow can net you 500 bucks. That is until Amazon woke up and limited KU earnings per borrow to 3000 pages and about $15 per box set per borrow.

How did and do scammers get readers to read 10000 pages? Simple: by putting a link at the beginning with click here for the table of contents, which is logically placed on page 9999 of the box set. And if a link to a table of contents doesn't do it, under it is a link to win a FREE kindle or Amazon gift card, and the link conveniently points to page 10000 of the box set. In both cases, even if the readers never actually read 1 page in the box set, the writer gets paid as if the reader read every page in the box set.

Do you want an EXAMPLE?

Click link, click LOOK INSIDE, scroll down!

_link removed. --Betsy_

Another EXAMPLE?

This writer: "Dorothy Thompson" has under different names more than a hundred box sets with the same 5 stories. The names of these stories are hidden and only revealed in the table of contents which you can find after clicking on a link that takes you to the end of the book.

Now you know as much as scammers and Amazon do and know why you, being a dummy, are making 0.4 cent per page read and not $15 per download.


----------



## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm hoping they'll wake up and crack down on scammers. If not and the payout keeps going down, I'll have to go wide. Never thought I'd say that, but I'm now considering it. We'll see what February's payout is. It better be more than January's.


----------



## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

This particular scam was already discussed in another thread.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Did you report them?


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2016)

Monique said:


> Did you report them?


I don't think it's against Amazon TOS.

As far as I'm concerned now we all have the info and can use it ourselves to turn every KU download into a 15 dollar payout. Why should only some have this info and use it for themselves and not all the others?

For instance, why not add bonus stories in each and every one of our books to get to 3000 pages?

PS: I'm not doing it myself. But if anyone needs rent money or money for baby milk, have at it!


----------



## jarmzet (Feb 19, 2016)

drno said:


> The reason I mention this scam is the fact that dummies like me and probably you who follow rules went from making 5 cent per page read in KU2 to 4 cent. Where is the rest of the money going? To scammers. Does Amazon care? No! they pay out of a fixed pot of money and couldn't care less how the money is distributed.


KU payout has been around half a cent a page.


----------



## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

Having conducted online research surveys for many years, I know it is possible to measure the length of time a person takes to complete a survey. If we notice a respondent taking say, 2 minutes to complete a survey that on average takes 15 minutes, then we know they are just plugging in answers and their survey is removed from the total and discarded. 

I would assume Amazon can do this as well, and I'd be surprised if they haven't already implemented something. They obviously don't want to being paying $$$ on fraudulent page reads.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

If you want Amazon to respond, a whole bunch of authors will have to email Jeff Bezos directly.


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

drno said:


> I don't think it's against Amazon TOS.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned now we all have the info and can use it ourselves to turn every KU download into a 15 dollar payout. Why should only some have this info and use it for themselves and not all the others?
> 
> ...


There was one book made up of everything under the kitchen sink. It was an interracial romance with like 10 other books including a cookbook with an offer for a free kindle by clicking a link to the last page. Me and some other people reported it and it got taken down as did the rest of that "author's" books. So doing this is a bad idea that will probably lead to a ban.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

drno said:


> Amazon cannot see how many pages a reader has actually read. Amazon can only see at what page the reader stopped reading.


Has this been confirmed? Is there viewable evidence?


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Amazon is aware of the situation and that's why they came out with the 3,000 KENPC cap. They will take books down doing this with the link scam if you report them. The number of scammers doing it isn't small.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Amazon is aware of the situation and that's why they came out with the 3,000 KENPC cap. They will take books down doing this with the link scam if you report them. The number of scammers doing it isn't small.


This^^
Yikes, there are soooo many books like this. It's crazy looking through the lists most days.


----------



## MMacLeod (Sep 21, 2015)

What puzzles me is, doesn't a live human already have to look at a book and click a button somewhere to make it go live? You could just about train a monkey to spot the current scam books. It shouldn't be so hard to weed them out.


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Nicole Carlson said:


> What puzzles me is, doesn't a live human already have to look at a book and click a button somewhere to make it go live? You could just about train a monkey to spot the current scam books. It shouldn't be so hard to weed them out.


This. 1,000 times..._this_.


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2016)

Nicole Carlson said:


> What puzzles me is, doesn't a live human already have to look at a book and click a button somewhere to make it go live? You could just about train a monkey to spot the current scam books. It shouldn't be so hard to weed them out.


Pretty sure there isn't or we wouldn't have so many keyword stuffed titles and other issues either. My guess is if the software doesn't flag it as "potential issue", it's all automated or the person just clicks go without actually looking at anything but that it's pending.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

drno said:


> The reason I mention this scam is the fact that dummies like me and probably you who follow rules went from making 0.5 cent per page read in KU2 to 0.4 cent. Where is the rest of the money going? To scammers. Does Amazon care? No! they pay out of a fixed pot of money and couldn't care less how the money is distributed.
> 
> I call it a scam, but please note that it is not against Amazon TOS to use this trick to maximize your KU payout per book.
> 
> ...


Amazon does listen to this stuff. I had pointed out a scam in KU1, wrote it up as a blog post, with several examples and links to them. Then tPV picked up my blog post, so it got a lot of traffic, and I had several hits on my blog from Amazon. It wasn't right then, I think it may have been passed onto someone else, because a few weeks later, my blog had another rash of hits by Amazon, with clicks on the links, and then those particular books were gone.


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Anma Natsu said:


> Pretty sure there isn't or we wouldn't have so many keyword stuffed titles and other issues either. My guess is if the software doesn't flag it as "potential issue", it's all automated or the person just clicks go without actually looking at anything but that it's pending.


Hard to believe Zon would be so lax - especially since it's costing them money.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

Please correct me if my memory is wrong.

I recall that several months ago authors were moving the Table of Contents to the back of the book.
That was because the preview function only shows a few pages at the front of the book. Authors wanted them to get a taste of the story without wasting viewing space on the Table of Contents.

I don't recall at that time of anyone claiming that was a scam.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Okey Dokey said:


> Please correct me if my memory is wrong.
> 
> I recall that several months ago authors were moving the Table of Contents to the back of the book.
> That was because the preview function only shows a few pages at the front of the book. Authors wanted them to get a taste of the story without wasting viewing space on the Table of Contents.
> ...


Are you arguing that piling eighty books in one title, putting a link at the front that says "free giveaway" and takes you to the back of the book to trigger a full read isn't a scam?


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Wired said:


> Hard to believe Zon would be so lax - especially since it's costing them money.


It's not. They pay however much they decide to pay. The money for those extra pages are divided among the other writers in KU. So it's costing US money.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

drno said:


> *I don't think it's against Amazon TOS. *
> 
> As far as I'm concerned now we all have the info and can use it ourselves to turn every KU download into a 15 dollar payout. Why should only some have this info and use it for themselves and not all the others?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that gaming the system and cheating or manipulating customers is against Amazon's very broad, very VAGUE TOS. If they want to ban an account and keep the money, they will.

Amazon already has the technology to determine how long it takes a person to read a book. Additionally, when I open a book, the first few minutes my kindle tells me it's "learning my reading speed" or something like that.

Amazon knows how long it takes each customer to read a book (avgs) and how long it takes for customers to read a specific book. With those two pieces of information (plus the KENPC pages), it shouldn't be hard to create a program to send up a red flag when 3k KENPC pages are read in a minute or two, or way below the average for that reader or type of book.

That being said, it's not a scam to have a box set with different authors or different stories. I have plenty of freebies where I will pick and choose the stories I read because I'm not a fan of each author/topic presented. The same goes for KU borrowed books.

Don't include legitimate authors in with the scammers. As someone said above, it's fairly easy for a trained monkey to spot the scam books. I've spotted a few myself. They have the exact same cover and have lots of "bonus" stories.

Amazon can fix this IF they wanted to.
The 3k page cap is just the beginning. A quick fix, if you will. More changes are coming. Will they hold off until June? Probably not. They certainly don't want to be known for allowing scammers to take advantage, nor do they want ticked off customers. IF they want to expand KU, they need to get a handle on this quickly.


----------



## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

I've seen this done in a few traditional publishers' ebooks as well.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Amazon needs to drop the 'pool', and just set a payment per page. You better believe then they'd be on top of these scams.


----------



## Blocked Writer (Oct 23, 2015)

drno said:


> ...
> Basic point: Amazon cannot see how many pages a reader has actually read. Amazon can only see at what page the reader stopped reading.
> ...


I'm curious what your source on this limitation is. And, as a software engineer, I'm skeptical. Amazon may not be able to tell whether or not you actually read a page, but they can certainly tell what pages you downloaded.

Per your example, if you get to page 8888, Amazon knows that's where you stopped. Well, when you were on page 8887, they must have known that was the last page you had "read," because if you chose to stop there, then they would "know" it, except that you went to the next page, right? They know every bit of data that you download, because they serve it to you. Recording it would be so very, very simple that I can't believe they wouldn't do it.

So I'm curious where the notion that they can only track the last page you get to comes from. Is this reported somewhere by a legit source, or is someone just speculating? I know that counting the first, last and every page in between would be feasible. I'd be surprised if they weren't doing it.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

We are dummies! Each and every one of us. We thought Amazon had the page reads figured out when they introduced KU2. 

If anyone here is waiting for Jeff Bezos to say that they don't have the page reads figured out then they will wait for a long time. Amazon was hoping that dummies like us who believe in Amazon and its almightyness would not figure out that there was a flaw in the system. They know that there are going to be scammers, but they also know that dummies like us will not figure it out. They are using our money to pay the scammers. That doesn't cost Amazon anything. Remember we, the dummies, went from 0.5 to 0.4 cent per page read. Smart people went from 0.5 cent per page read to $15 per download. Do you see how a small amount of scammers can destroy the income of many dummies?

If you don't believe me and you have a KU account or know someone with a KU account, you can test it yourself. (There is a latency issue, so make sure you give it time to report)

Remember Hugh Howey saying that from now on writers who delight their readers with great stories were going to benefit because these readers were going to read the whole book and that lousy writers were going to be washed away?

Remember when every time the pay per page read went down we were saying that more books were being read and we were happy because our books might be read? Uh? No! More and more scammers are taking advantage of the flaws in the system.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Did you honestly think the scammers wouldn't figure out a way to game the system? That's what they DO.

My time is better spent working on my books than worrying about what scammers are going to do. 

IF you are unhappy with KDP select, pull your books out.

Pointing out the flaws in KU on this board will not really accomplish anything. None of us here have the ability to make any changes. Only Amazon does.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

You know, after thinking about it, I see nothing wrong with this in the 'Click for Table of Contents' form.

From the perspective fo the reader, one a TOC in a ficiton book you're going to read straight through isn't exactly a sacrifice to ignore. For a list of books in a bundle, the single click is a tiny bit annoying and not Best Practices in terms of web design (and every ebook is really just a self-contained website). It really does nothing to the reader's experience, and the only 'victim' is Amazon.

You can't say it hurts other authors via the Global Fund because Amazon sets the Global Fund to whatever they want anyway, so it isn't actually going to change any given author's payout.

Taken by itself, it isn't screwing up the search results by stuffing not-even-tangentlly-related keywords, it's not breaking up a story into dozens of chapters pretending to be serial installments, it isn't messing with the interface of the book or the website. The worst it's doing is... making you click one more time than normal? Eh, I mean whatever.


----------



## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

I don't think Amazon is allowing this on purpose, they just don't have a very good programming staff working on kindle stuff would more likely be the case.
Hopefully they'll figure this problem out in the not too distant future, but look at the mess they've made of the bookshelf page. It went from being very easy to work with, to a complete pain in the butt to use if you have more than ten books out (I've got about 40). It was coded by complete idiots.
So, don't attribute to malice that which is surely due to ignorance and incompetence.


----------



## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Technically, any advertisement in your book is a violation of the TOS. It's right there in 5.1.2:

"You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services."

I would assume this includes advertising a giveaway or prize. (It probably means advertising "free book if you join my email list" is technically against the TOS as well, although I haven't heard of any crackdown on this...yet).

Incidentally, advertising a giveaway through a purchase might ALSO violate US sweepstakes law.


----------



## bardeh (Nov 3, 2013)

Actually I don't think this is how it works at all. From my experience of borrowing my own books and testing things out, if you skip right to the end, it doesn't trigger a full payout. Each page seems to be triggered when it's loaded, and then the half cent is paid out. So someone who opened the book at page 1 and skipped right through to the last page would only get payouts for two pages, because those were the only two rendered on the kindle.

Also, it's not a scam to have boxed sets, or collections. TOC's are there for customers to more easily navigate a book. If I release a collection of my novels, I don't want my readers to get frustrated clicking all the way through the book to get to the story they want.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

bardeh said:


> Actually I don't think this is how it works at all. From my experience of borrowing my own books and testing things out, if you skip right to the end, it doesn't trigger a full payout. Each page seems to be triggered when it's loaded, and then the half cent is paid out. So someone who opened the book at page 1 and skipped right through to the last page would only get payouts for two pages, because those were the only two rendered on the kindle.
> 
> Also, it's not a scam to have boxed sets, or collections. TOC's are there for customers to more easily navigate a book. If I release a collection of my novels, I don't want my readers to get frustrated clicking all the way through the book to get to the story they want.


Huge groups of people have tested it and it does work, though. There's an entire movement of authors doing the scam. Box sets and omnibuses are not scams. Eighty books with nothing to do with one another, including cookbooks, lists of words, four copies of the same book, etc. bundled together are scams.


----------



## bang on the drum (Nov 2, 2015)

drno said:


> Does Amazon care? No! they pay out of a fixed pot of money and couldn't care less how the money is distributed.
> ...
> In essence Amazon cannot see where you began reading, but can only see where you stopped reading.


You are obviously pretty high up at Amazon to know this much. It's nice that you came to visit us here at Kboards. Are you sure that Amazon is ok with you publicly disclosing their business strategy and their payout security measures?


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

I believe the world is a better place when we all have the same information, so it's important to know what other writers are doing to make KU work for them.

Putting the table of contents at the back of the book and putting a link to it at the beginning of the book is not against TOS. Some readers may even prefer it. The fact that a click on the link generates a full read is just a bonus. 

Adding notes to your book can be used for the same purpose.

Adding bonus stories to pad the payout is not against TOS. Use this trick if you have a back catalog that is not generating many sales. You can add the same bonus stories to each and every one of your books.

So as long as one uses the trick with some elegance, so as not to get customer complaints, you should be able to turn every download of every one of your books into a $15 payout.  

It occurred to me that a Bookbub or a Facebook campaign on the back of a box set rigged to pay out $15 can be extremely profitable. Let us know the results if anyone tries it out!

PS: A lot of writers are using the table of contents trick now. You're stealing from your own pocket if you don't. (fixed pot, some take more, other get less, basic math!)


----------



## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

juliatheswede said:


> I'm hoping they'll wake up and crack down on scammers. If not and the payout keeps going down, I'll have to go wide. Never thought I'd say that, but I'm now considering it. We'll see what February's payout is. It better be more than January's.


I don't get it, who's scamming who? I'm usually very happy to see that people do read my books on borrows and although I only make peanuts I'm glad they don't just read one page and decide it's a waste of time, so where is the scam?


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

Beatriz said:


> I don't get it, who's scamming who? I only make peanuts I'm glad they don't just read one page and decide it's a waste of time, so where is the scam?


Your book Beyond the Snows of the Andes is Print Length: 566 pages long; You don't have a table of contents. How to maximize your income?

Add a table of contents to the end of your book, that is page 567. Now at the beginning of your book add a link with - click here for the table of contents - and point the link to the table of contents on page 567. Every time a reader clicks on the link, they jump to the end of your book, and you automatically get paid for all 567 pages. It's a trick that is not against the TOS and is used by a lot of writers who know about it.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

drno said:


> I believe the world is a better place when we all have the same information, so it's important to know what other writers are doing to make KU work for them.
> 
> Putting the table of contents at the back of the book and putting a link to it at the beginning of the book is not against TOS. Some readers may even prefer it. The fact that a click on the link generates a full read is just a bonus.
> 
> ...


I actually have a BB ad for a box set coming up in a few weeks. I was going to upload a reformatted version, but only to make it prettier. (Vellum vs my own formatting). Tempting! However, I'd probably screw it up somehow. lol.


----------



## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

I only have one book in KU and it's a collection of novels and some novellas. One of the stories has illustrations which I indicate in the story with a notation that hyperlinks to the back of the book where the illustrations are. I did this so the illustrations don't interrupt the flow of text, and so that readers who don't want to examine the illustrations aren't burdened. None of this was done with the intention of having readers automatically make it appear as if they've read the entire collection. That possibility never dawned on me. So if Amazon somehow decides that hyperlinking to the back of the book is a scam and a violation of TOS, I'll be screwed.


----------



## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

drno said:


> I believe the world is a better place when we all have the same information, so it's important to know what other writers are doing to make KU work for them.
> 
> Putting the table of contents at the back of the book and putting a link to it at the beginning of the book is not against TOS. Some readers may even prefer it. The fact that a click on the link generates a full read is just a bonus.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your thoughts. But if I wanted to make money ripping people off, there are far more lucrative opportunities out there.

And I didn't go into novel writing with the intent of scamming anyone to make $15 (much less Amazon, the company that helped pioneer the eBook revolution and provides me with an outlet to sell my books). I'm sure not going to start now.


----------



## DaniO (Oct 22, 2012)

I really hope KENPC 3.0 is just around the corner because underneath the alsoboughts for that book it says:

This author was among the most popular in Kindle Unlimited in January. Learn more about Kindle Unlimited All-Stars.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

MaryMcDonald said:


> I actually have a BB ad for a box set coming up in a few weeks. I was going to upload a reformatted version, but only to make it prettier. (Vellum vs my own formatting). Tempting! However, I'd probably screw it up somehow. lol.


If you have weeks before BB, then just test it this week with a cheap ad. It should give you an indication of whether it works or not. Just make sure you have a table of contents on the Amazon page of the book for the people who want to buy the book instead of borrow it.

$15 bucks per click is a lot of money if you compare it to what Adsense and other internet marketers offer. I bet the get rich quick crowd is gonna go wild over this opportunity. If the Warrior forum or the Webmaster forums get a sniff of this it's over for us. We'll be getting 0,1 cent instead of the 0.4 cent we got this month.


----------



## shellabee (Aug 4, 2015)

drno said:


> Putting the table of contents at the back of the book and putting a link to it at the beginning of the book is not against TOS. Some readers may even prefer it. The fact that a click on the link generates a full read is just a bonus.
> 
> Adding notes to your book can be used for the same purpose.
> 
> Adding bonus stories to pad the payout is not against TOS. Use this trick if you have a back catalog that is not generating many sales. You can add the same bonus stories to each and every one of your books.


The issue here, as I see it, is that not only are these "tricks" not against TOS, they're actually very legitimate ways to set up an ebook. As you note, some readers will prefer it. Advertisement-like links that eke in under the TOS are a little shady, but even a link to an "About the Author" or "Series Overview" can be a very legit thing to use, IMHO.

Adding a bonus short story to a collection to increase sales or even just for completeness' sake is also very legitimate, and having a direct link to it at the end or to a table of contents at the back is not "trickery."

The problem is that the apparent counting of pages "skipped" via links like this basically invalidates the whole "pages read" payment method, destroying it at a fundamental level. And, simultaneously to invalidating the system, it allows easy exploitation by scammers who are using non-ethical (even if compliant with TOS) links to rack up page reads.

My expectation is that the KENP 2 cap is a temporary measure to cut down on the damage while an actual "how many pages have actually been viewed" improvement is developed and put into place. No doubt, many will complain when this is installed because their page reads will go down because they've been unknowingly benefiting from the current system.

Someone with a box set may see page reads plummet because a reader has read books 1-3 individually but grabbed the boxed set on KU and skipped straight to book 4 to continue reading the series. No "cheat" there but the author will see a read drop of 75% because they've been getting reads for books 1-3 until then.

Similar to how many felt "cheated" when the KENP 2 changed the way page counts were calculated...some were unknowingly benefiting from "inflated" page counts due to their formatting method and felt like Amazon was screwing them over because they suddenly lost 20% of their KENP for "no reason."

I would not support intentionally trying to game the system, though. The sets with loads of crap pasted in or repeated books are tricks, obviously. Other maneuvers are gray areas and might not be outright cheating but still a little iffy from an ethical standpoint. And "iffy from an ethical standpoint" is not something that I would encourage others to practice, even if I decided that it was okay for me to do.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I reported an author earlier this week when I tripped across a bunch of books, a dozen or so, all published in Jan and Feb of this year with titles like "ROMANCE: The Viking's Queen: (AMAZING VALUE BONUS OF 40+ FREE BOOKS!!!) (Historical Bad Boy Romance New Adult Contemporary Short Stories)" The blurb says, "INCREDIBLE BONUS OF 40+ AMAZING ROMANCE BOOKS INSIDE!!! Limited Time Offer!!"

Basically, there's nothing about Vikings, just a collection of short erotica about 2,000 KENP long. The first thing after the title page is a link that takes you to the end of the book to read "An important notice about your free bonus books". 

The number of ways this violates the TOS is amazing. At $8-9 a "full read", this sort of thing is definitely cutting into the pool.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

I find this whole situation YUCK

On one hand, I'm extremely dissatisfied with the new KU2 system, as I write shorts and my income has skydived. Where before I could write a short per week and have $1.35 on the borrow market, I feel now I have to write 1400 KPC (whatever) pages per month just to reach the same share. It's insane. That number is just getting bigger. 

But I don't want to put old books and stories into new releases when I know no one wants them. It's like total junk mail. It's really ugly. I don't think I could do this, even if it is within the rules. Feels very dirty to me. 

That said, I've seen some popular authors doing it.


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Carrie_Cox said:


> I really hope KENPC 3.0 is just around the corner because underneath the alsoboughts for that book it says:This author was among the most popular in Kindle Unlimited in January. Learn more about Kindle Unlimited All-Stars.


I think I'm gonna puke.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> I find this whole situation YUCK
> 
> On one hand, I'm extremely dissatisfied with the new KU2 system, as I write shorts and my income has skydived. Where before I could write a short per week and have $1.35 on the borrow market, I feel now I have to write 1400 KPC (whatever) pages per month just to reach the same share. It's insane. That number is just getting bigger.
> 
> ...


This, and what shellabee said above. No way, Jose. No. I'm writing for my READERS. Know how I get them to read the whole book? *I write a book they want to read all the way through.* I don't have to put my TOC in the back and put in a "click here" link, because most of them are reading the whole book.

How do I know that? Because I went back into KU a week before KU2 started, and put in 3 books in a series as a test. I could obviously see how many books were being borrowed per day. A week later, when KU2 kicked in? Same number of pages read per day as # of books from KU1 stats x # of pages in book.

You think Amazon doesn't notice what authors do? They notice. I emailed my rep when the page #s recalculated (mine stayed pretty close to the same, so I wasn't gaining from the inflated page counts before, but I didn't lose much), and mentioned that mine didn't change, asked her what was going on. Here was her answer. Is this a stock answer? I'm sure it is. But I thought it was interesting anyway. I too am betting that these loopholes get closed, and soon.

"The whole point of the update was to increase the equity and close some of the loopholes some people developed. You, as someone who didn't change her books to make a bad customer experience in hopes of earning a higher percentage of the fund, are coming out the winner. We observed the behaviors of authors in KU, took in customer complaints, and pushed out a single update to close those loopholes.

"This isn't impacting how we are surfacing these titles, and I didn't expect your KENPC to change much - just a slight adjustment with our new normalization. No one needs to compete for a higher KENPC; the trick isn't getting a higher KENPC, it's getting your readers to engage with your content. You are clearly doing this already "


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I write a book they want to read all the way through.


The problem isn't _our _books...it's the scammers who are lowering our payout per page. Stealing from us.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Wired said:


> The problem isn't _our _books...it's the scammers who are lowering our payout per page. Stealing from us.


I get that. But I can't do anything about that other than (1) go wide, which would cut off my nose to spite my face, or (2) assume that Amazon will address it as they've addressed the other ways people have tried to game the system.

Is it frustrating? You bet. But the scammers, ye will have always with ye. I can ignore them and assume they'll be dealt with and will pop up again, because some people will ALWAYS try to cheat the system. Or I can get my knickers in a twist to no end. Or I can note their sociopathic behavior and use it in a book.  I'll probably end up doing (a) and (c), personally.


----------



## Key (Jan 6, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I get that. But I can't do anything about that other than (1) go wide, which would cut off my nose to spite my face, or (2) assume that Amazon will address it as they've addressed the other ways people have tried to game the system.
> 
> Is it frustrating? You bet. But the scammers, ye will have always with ye. I can ignore them and assume they'll be dealt with and will pop up again, because some people will ALWAYS try to cheat the system. Or I can get my knickers in a twist to no end. Or I can note their sociopathic behavior and use it in a book.  I'll probably end up doing (a) and (c), personally.


I admire your ability to not react emotionally to this information.  Pretty much ruined my day.  I mean, I wasn't looking at a huge payout or anything anyway. But it's so egregious and frustrating...


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> ...assume that Amazon will address it as they've addressed the other ways people have tried to game the system.


I hope so. And I hope they do it _fast_.


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

Key said:


> Pretty much ruined my day ... it's so egregious and frustrating.


This.


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

drno said:


> Your book Beyond the Snows of the Andes is Print Length: 566 pages long; You don't have a table of contents. How to maximize your income?
> 
> Add a table of contents to the end of your book, that is page 567. Now at the beginning of your book add a link with - click here for the table of contents - and point the link to the table of contents on page 567. Every time a reader clicks on the link, they jump to the end of your book, and you automatically get paid for all 567 pages. It's a trick that is not against the TOS and is used by a lot of writers who know about it.


Putting the table of contents at the end isn't a scam. People have been doing it since long before KU2 came out because they didn't want their table of contents to clip into the free sample Amazon shows when people click look inside. Remember, when you're reading the actual book, most people don't have a reason to go to the table of contents. They just read the book straight through. Having one in fiction novels is mostly only helpful for people who've lost their place, like when I read on my computer and Kindle, they don't sync so a TOC helps me get back to my spot.

Most my stuff isn't long enough to need a TOC and most my "full reads" net me 30 cents. So I have no personal investment in this. I just didn't like the idea of it being suggested that people are trying to game the system by putting their TOC in the back. That's not the same as jamming 3000 pages worth of random crap together and offering people a chance at a free Kindle if they click to the end.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

kcmorgan said:


> Putting the table of contents at the end isn't a scam. People have been doing it since long before KU2 came out because they didn't want their table of contents to clip into the free sample Amazon shows when people click look inside. Remember, when you're reading the actual book, most people don't have a reason to go to the table of contents. They just read the book straight through. Having one in fiction novels is mostly only helpful for people who've lost their place, like when I read on my computer and Kindle, they don't sync so a TOC helps me get back to my spot.
> 
> Most my stuff isn't long enough to need a TOC and most my "full reads" net me 30 cents. So I have no personal investment in this. I just didn't like the idea of it being suggested that people are trying to game the system by putting their TOC in the back. That's not the same as jamming 3000 pages worth of random crap together and offering people a chance at a free Kindle if they click to the end.


If, as has been suggested, one puts the ToC at the end and then has a link to the ToC as the first bit of content in the book, it does appear to me that the sole purpose is to get people to go to the end of the book. Because in books that I've seen where the ToC is at the end of the book (which I don't personally like), there's no link; one gets to it by using the built in Kindle feature of accessing the ToC through the menu system. Unless I'm misunderstanding things. It wouldn't make me click, anyway, as I don't use the ToC in books and also wouldn't want to screw up the "furthest page read" or "most recent page read" set up. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> If, as has been suggested, one puts the ToC at the end and then has a link to the ToC as the first bit of content in the book, it does appear to me that the sole purpose is to get people to go to the end of the book. Because in books that I've seen where the ToC is at the end of the book (which I don't personally like), there's no link; one gets to it by using the built in Kindle feature of accessing the ToC through the menu system. Unless I'm misunderstanding things. It wouldn't make me click, anyway, as I don't use the ToC in books and also wouldn't want to screw up the "furthest page read" or "most recent page read" set up. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.


But since most people don't use the TOC it would be a terrible way to get people to the back of the book. Opening a book, it starts on page one, that would mean swiping back. Then clicking the link. Then going to the TOC. And choosing page one...My guess is they add a link because they don't know you can indicate to Kindle where your TOC is. And unlike the "click to the back" sweepstakes stuff, TOCs have been in the back of ebooks for years and years now. I remember the first formatting book I ever read suggested I put as much front matter as possible in the back because Amazon only gives a 10% preview and you don't want to waste space.


----------



## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Wired said:


> The problem isn't _our _books...it's the scammers who are lowering our payout per page. Stealing from us.


This.

Normally in a free market economy, when someone gets richer, it doesn't take anything away from me. There is no set amount of money I have to fight for a chunk of.

But if I were in KU, where the pool is fixed, every penny someone else got would be a penny I didn't get. I can only imagine how painful it is for authors in KU to realize that much of the money in that fixed pool is going to shysters, and not just people who wrote books with more appeal.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

These scammers don't just put links to TOC in the back, mostly they put teaser things, you must click here first, in bold, then again click here for the freebie, or the drawing or the whatever. 

We talked about them in another thread. They have in effect now ruined the romance categories for me and many other readers. I cannot look anymore what was released recently. There are 1000's of these things and they all look similar in that they are long, use keyword stuffing, put these click here must click here links in the beginning and stuff anything from porn shorts and anything else in there. Often the only "story" related to the title at all is the one you have to click the link at the front to get to. And then its like 10 pages. Reader just returns it at this point because its carp, but if it triggered the read, they just pocketed some nice change. Many KU readers grab their reads from the devices, phones. So they might search for some vikings, or historical romance and see a cover that looks decent and download it with KU. That is how they manage to get these rankings. 

This isn't about normal box sets. But its all getting mixed in now and readers can't find anything anymore. I am so glad my Voyage has the new kindle update with the goodreads integration now. I haven't had to go to amazon to browse for books anymore. I now get recs based on my star ratings and from goodreads friends and my own wish lists. 

As to the TOC in the back, I opened a bunch of the books I read and they all have it in the front. I cannot recall a book that had it in the back. But then if a 2 page TOC takes away from the 10% sample, such a book would be way to short for me anyway. Otherwise, 2 pages in a full book would not make really any difference to the sample at all. It would be odd for me to see a link to the TOC a the beginning of the book. Like Betsy said, its a button on the kindle to go to. 

Since a kindle book opens at the 1st chapter, or prologue, even a TOC at the beginning one has to page back. Always had been like that. So if a book opened at a link with a TOC, I would have to wonder at the intentions of the author with all that is going on as it wouldn't make sense for any other reason.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Surely all readers know that you go to the TOC by going to the, well, link to the TOC on your device. Because that's how Kindle books work. Why would you have a link from the front at all? As Atunah says, your book doesn't open at the TOC anyway.

Because it's in the Look Inside? What, a page or two? I get around that by titling the chapters, and trying to make the titles clever. So now the reader doesn't see the TOC, they see (I hope) that the book has a little bit of wit in it. If they notice at all. And that I'm sort of a normal author who puts the TOC in the front. Unless it's a boxed set of 3 books where you've got all the individual chapters, I can't see any reason to put it at the back.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Edward M. Grant said:


> It's not that the TOC takes up much of the 10% sample, it's that a reader has to click through two or more pages of TOC to get to the story when they go to the 'Look Inside'. I know I've _not_ bought a number of books that looked interesting because I clicked down through multiple pages of the 'Look Inside' (ToC, acknowledgements, reviews, I wouldn't have written this without my loving mother, pictures of cats, etc) and still wasn't at the start of the story.
> 
> Life's too short when there are so many other books out there that start the story within half a page.


I never look at the look inside, I only deal with samples if I need to check a book and samples open where the book does. I still say that 1-2 pages of TOC really wouldn't turn anyone off. Reviews and all that other stuff are a different issue though. But I don't really see that in the books I read. I see sometimes a half page of something, I have to page back to get to that, or its at the end after the story. A bit of the author on maybe how the story came about, what historical facts are true and which are not, etc. I don't see much of that at the beginning.
But then again, I never use the look inside and I don't like reading on my computer.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Here's what my Look Inside looks like on a Montlake book. Tons of stuff before you get to the book, but it looks professional. I think that's important. If a reader can't be bothered to page through the front matter, she probably isn't my reader anyway, as I write long books. Maybe if you write super short books? I'm trying to get into the mindset of a reader who's put off from scrolling with their finger for two seconds to get to the book. (I'm not talking about those authors who write a novel in the form of a dedication to their parrot who inspired the book, all their critique partners, etc. THAT stuff belongs at the back of a book! If at all.)

I do think titling the chapters can help. Piques interest, perhaps.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010DQX0YI/ref=series_rw_dp_sw#reader_B010DQX0YI


----------



## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

It's in Amazon's best interest to correct this. They don't want scammers or crappy books cluttering up their best seller and best author lists. They have the technology to fix this and I'm guessing that this is their highest KU priority at the moment. Go back to writing and consider this a temporary bump in the KU road.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Rosalind James said:


> Here's what my Look Inside looks like on a Montlake book. Tons of stuff before you get to the book, but it looks professional. I think that's important. If a reader can't be bothered to page through the front matter, she probably isn't my reader anyway, as I write long books. Maybe if you write super short books? I'm trying to get into the mindset of a reader who's put off from scrolling with their finger for two seconds to get to the book. (I'm not talking about those authors who write a novel in the form of a dedication to their parrot who inspired the book, all their critique partners, etc. THAT stuff belongs at the back of a book! If at all.)
> 
> I do think titling the chapters can help. Piques interest, perhaps.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010DQX0YI/ref=series_rw_dp_sw#reader_B010DQX0YI


Yeah, I can't recall every hearing another reader talk about how hard it was to page through 2 pages of TOC in the look inside. But then most I know use samples.

Yes to the titles having names. I just read a book in KU and on my Voyage, when I hit the top, it shows the name of the chapter nicely on the bottom. How you get to the general menu in a book. It added a nice touch for me reading that one.

I love nicely formatted books. Its a joy to open them and have a nice chapter heading, all things as they are suppose. I appreciate such formatting.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, my early books still had this, and I was a newbie, and it didn't seem to hurt, so . . .


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I wish I had the _time_ to scour through the listings at Amazon, turning in book after book for violating TOS and ethical guidelines that aren't really listed in the rules anywhere. Because I could use that time for so many things I don't have time for now. I still wouldn't gaf about scammers, because Amazon will do what it will do quite independent of me. But the extra time would be a-ma-zing.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

Shelley K said:


> I wish I had the _time_ to scour through the listings at Amazon, turning in book after book for violating TOS and ethical guidelines that aren't really listed in the rules anywhere. Because I could use that time for so many things I don't have time for now. I still wouldn't gaf about scammers, because Amazon will do what it will do quite independent of me. But the extra time would be a-ma-zing.


  I agree!


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> Well, my early books still had this, and I was a newbie, and it didn't seem to hurt, so . . .


Length matters too. For some of my shorts, if I crowded it with front matter there would have probably been a sentence left in the sample. If you're writing a 500 page book, then no, you probably don't have to worry too much about the table of contents. But even so, when I was learning how to format, the book I used specifically explained that ebooks aren't like paper books, you don't have to do everything the exact same way. So my point was that I don't think TOCs being in the back is a indicator of someone trying to exploit the system because A. most people don't need the TOC so it would be an weak exploit and B. People have been doing it that way long before KU 2.0 came out.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

kcmorgan said:


> Length matters too. For some of my shorts, if I crowded it with front matter there would have probably been a sentence left in the sample. If you're writing a 500 page book, then no, you probably don't have to worry too much about the table of contents. But even so, when I was learning how to format, the book I used specifically explained that ebooks aren't like paper books, you don't have to do everything the exact same way. So my point was that I don't think TOCs being in the back is a indicator of someone trying to exploit the system because A. most people don't need the TOC so it would be an weak exploit and B. People have been doing it that way long before KU 2.0 came out.


I had a couple short stories that were so short, the entire sample was just front matter. I contacted KDP and they lengthened the sample.

TOCs are actually rare in print novels (unless you have chapter titles). The reason that you add them to ebooks is for ease of navigation. I prefer them in the front, but if you don't, there's nothing that says you have to put them there. Though title page and copyright page should stay in the front, I think. Still, it makes no sense to put a link that says "click here to get to the TOC" when you can easily navigate there using your Kindle or Kindle app. Especially combined with other links to win a gift card or get a free audiobook or the whole "Click here! I have something important to tell you before you start reading!" Just a little suspect. 

Rue


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

ruecole said:


> I had a couple short stories that were so short, the entire sample was just front matter. I contacted KDP and they lengthened the sample.
> 
> TOCs are actually rare in print novels (unless you have chapter titles). The reason that you add them to ebooks is for ease of navigation. I prefer them in the front, but if you don't, there's nothing that says you have to put them there. Though title page and copyright page should stay in the front, I think. Still, it makes no sense to put a link that says "click here to get to the TOC" when you can easily navigate there using your Kindle or Kindle app. Especially combined with other links to win a gift card or get a free audiobook or the whole "Click here! I have something important to tell you before you start reading!" Just a little suspect.
> 
> Rue


That assumes everyone whose formatted an ebook has a Kindle and therefore knows how it works. And the Kindle only goes to the TOC if you know enough about how Kindles work to mark it properly in your file. If you don't know, you might leave a link to the TOC. I don't lump that into the same category as people who make those giant red "CLICK HERE" links that don't even tell what they are for or suggest you'll get some sort of prize for clicking to the end. A table of contents is not an enticement.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

kcmorgan said:


> That assumes everyone whose formatted an ebook has a Kindle and therefore knows how it works. And the Kindle only goes to the TOC if you know enough about how Kindles work to mark it properly in your file. If you don't know, you might leave a link to the TOC. I don't lump that into the same category as people who make those giant red "CLICK HERE" links that don't even tell what they are for or suggest you'll get some sort of prize for clicking to the end. A table of contents is not an enticement.


In a box set I think it is an enticement. I'm not saying everyone who puts a link to the TOC in the front of their book is a scammer, but so far I have only seen these links in books that are most definitely scams. Therefore, I wouldn't do it lest I get lumped in with the scammers--either by readers or Amazon.

Also, I think if you don't know how a Kindle or Kindle app works, you either shouldn't be formatting your own books or need to educate yourself. The last thing you want is bad reviews or your book flagged due to poor formatting.

Rue


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Just one thing, is that these scammers won't have long term careers. Sure they might make 2-3k this month, but in 4 months they'll make 0.


----------



## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

drno said:


> As far as I'm concerned now we all have the info and can use it ourselves to turn every KU download into a 15 dollar payout. Why should only some have this info and use it for themselves and not all the others?


So let me get this straight.

You complain about the scammers who have been gaming the system and as a result have lowered the page payout for all of us.

And your solution to this is for all of us to do the same thing the scammers are doing? For us to become scammers ourselves? And you think that even though Amazon lowered the page payment in the past, they won't do it again when more people are trying this trick?


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

DGS said:


> Just one thing, is that these scammers won't have long term careers. Sure they might make 2-3k this month, but in 4 months they'll make 0.


Or they make $150,000 in a month.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

DGS said:


> Just one thing, is that these scammers won't have long term careers. Sure they might make 2-3k this month, but in 4 months they'll make 0.


Many scammers have been making way more than that. A single 8,000 KENP stuffed-with-junk eBook borrowed once per day, every day in January netted $1,020.50.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Nicole Carlson said:


> What puzzles me is, doesn't a live human already have to look at a book and click a button somewhere to make it go live? You could just about train a monkey to spot the current scam books. It shouldn't be so hard to weed them out.


I don't believe Amazon has a human review each and every book before being published. They probably use software for a cursory review and humans quickly review the titles the software kicks out from the automated publishing queue.

If each new book was left to a customer service rep type person to review before being published, we would have more threads here about how horrible Amazon is for taking 1, 2, 3 months to approve books for publishing than complaining about scammers.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2016)

DGS said:


> Just one thing, is that these scammers won't have long term careers. Sure they might make 2-3k this month, but in 4 months they'll make 0.


The book I linked to said that the writer was an All Star in January. This means he made at least $40,000 in January.

Scams always grow exponentially. Amazon took the pot to 15 million and still our payout went from 0.5 to 0.4 cent per page read. This scammer is not going to be satisfied with $40,000 this month. Either Amazon adds millions more or our pay per page goes down again.


----------



## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

drno said:


> The book I linked to said that the writer was an All Star in January. This means he made at least $40,000 in January.
> 
> Scams always grow exponentially. Amazon took the pot to 15 million and still our payout went from 0.5 to 0.4 cent per page read. This scammer is not going to be satisfied with $40,000 this month. Either Amazon adds millions more or our pay per page goes down again.


Then report these books when you see them. Don't encourage other people to imitate this same bad behavior. That only increases the chances of Amazon bringing the hammer down on all of us.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Have you ever reported a book and later seen it taken down? Serious question. The book in question (though the link was removed) was no doubt reported by somebody, but it's still live, still "selling" well, and still says this: _This author was among the most popular in Kindle Unlimited in January. Learn more about Kindle Unlimited All-Stars._

This has to be addressed from the top down, not a few authors reporting books when we run across them. As others said, I don't have the time or energy to scroll through Amazon trying to find every scam.

Also, you know, that should be someone's job _at Amazon_?  Is it now our responsibility to police the system and make reports that get ignored anyway?



Perry Constantine said:


> Then report these books when you see them. Don't encourage other people to imitate this same bad behavior. That only increases the chances of Amazon bringing the hammer down on all of us.


How will them bringing the hammer down on this particular scam hurt any of us? Bring the hammer. Bring the fucking Thor-sized hammer down. If they don't want only scammers (and lots of them) then they need to stop allowing this and rewarding the scammers with bonuses on top of it.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

HSh said:


> Have you ever reported a book and later seen it taken down? Serious question. The book in question (though the link was removed) was no doubt reported by somebody, but it's still live, still "selling" well, and still says this: _This author was among the most popular in Kindle Unlimited in January. Learn more about Kindle Unlimited All-Stars._
> 
> This has to be addressed from the top down, not a few authors reporting books when we run across them. As others said, I don't have the time or energy to scroll through Amazon trying to find every scam.
> 
> ...


Amazon is making money off these questionable books. They must be. How else could they afford to pay 40k to these "authors" and "publishers." If it cut into their bottom line, you can be damn sure they'd be on it. But they let it go on, so it must not be that bad for them.

One of the books cited by the OP I just checked out. The front matter says that it is published by Random House. Considering the chapters are two pages long and the writer misueses apostrophes, I very much doubt the random house claim. Maybe someone should ask Random House if they actually publish this author and are actually giving away Free Kindle HDX units as is claimed in the front matter.

I shouldn't have checked out the book. It's just bloody depressing.


----------



## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

HSh said:


> How will them bringing the hammer down on this particular scam hurt any of us? Bring the hammer. Bring the [expletive]ing Thor-sized hammer down. If they don't want only scammers (and lots of them) then they need to stop allowing this and rewarding the scammers with bonuses on top of it.


I'm talking about punishing _all_ authors. If the OP's claims are true, that all authors have been punished by decreased page rates and changes to KENPC because of these scammers, then encouraging authors to use the same techniques as the scammers is only going to make things worse for all of us. That's why I said report these books when you find them. Complaining about scammers on KBoards or using the same tactics as they are isn't going to do anything.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I wish I could report them all, but there are so many, I don't have the time. Its like a flood of scam right now. 

This is bad for you guys that are in KU and its bad for us readers that are trying to find stuff. Its double bad for you guy since I can't find you in the see of garbage. I don't think sticking the head in the sand is going to do anything. 

Hopefully other readers like me are reporting that stuff, but I don't see why authors can't write some letters also. 

It matters to all of us.


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Where did you guys get your numbers from? Because all stars range all over, and the highest is 25k. https://chrismcmullen.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/how-much-does-amazon-pay-kindle-unlimited-all-stars/

At $15 a pop, to 150k?


----------



## Guest (Feb 25, 2016)

DGS said:


> Where did you guys get your numbers from? Because all stars range all over, and the highest is 25k. https://chrismcmullen.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/how-much-does-amazon-pay-kindle-unlimited-all-stars/
> 
> At $15 a pop, to 150k?


Wayne Stinnett was an All Star a couple of months ago. He received a bonus of $1000 for that month. In that same month he made $40,000 in sales and KU reads to be eligible for the bonus.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

A flaw system will attract scammers.

Since a link jump to the last page of a book can trigger the whole book KENPC to be counted, it's a scammer paradise.  

Amazon will fix this...one day many months from now.  Until then, scammers will make as much money as they can before Amazon put a stop to it.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think I'm a pretty average sort of reader . . . I do suspect I read rather more than many, but not nearly as much as some.

I don't browse the Zon all that often . . . rely on recs from GR, recs based on my reading/rating on the Zon, and recs from actual human persons I know.  I've never had a book recommended to me that I checked out and found to be pretty clearly a scam. If I did I'd complain to Amazon.

I don't care where the ToC is. I open a book and immediately go to the cover, and then page through to see if there's any interesting front matter. And then start reading at the beginning. I don't even look at the ToC except to the extent that I page through if it's in the front. If it's not in the front, I don't care. I only care that the 'time left in chapter' function of the kindle works properly.


----------



## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

drno said:


> Your book Beyond the Snows of the Andes is Print Length: 566 pages long; You don't have a table of contents. How to maximize your income?
> 
> Add a table of contents to the end of your book, that is page 567. Now at the beginning of your book add a link with - click here for the table of contents - and point the link to the table of contents on page 567. Every time a reader clicks on the link, they jump to the end of your book, and you automatically get paid for all 567 pages. It's a trick that is not against the TOS and is used by a lot of writers who know about it.


Thanks for the info. What will they think of next? But I really can't do that. The aim of an author is to communicate something valuable. My Beyond the Snows if my masterpiece and most people who do buy it do read it so I don't have to cheat, what would be the point, to earn a few more pennies? Definitely not worth it. But thanks a lot for taking the trouble of looking into it.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

drno said:


> Wayne Stinnett was an All Star a couple of months ago. He received a bonus of $1000 for that month. In that same month he made $40,000 in sales and KU reads to be eligible for the bonus.


Only the actual pages borrowed qualify one for the bonus. I would suspect that scammers aren't getting many buys. It takes at least 3.5-4 million reads to qualify for a bonus. Therefore at the Jan payout, an All-Star would be making a minimum of around 15 or 16k/month from borrows and another 500 in bonus for the lowest level.

To be technical about it.

I have no idea how big a problem this actually is--how many people are getting significant borrows with these techniques. Mostly, I just do my thing, and I've only heard about this recently. I suppose we'll see what Amazon does about it. They don't like customer complaints and they respond to them. That, I know.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Amazon is certainly aware of the scammer situation- why do you think they implemented the 3000 KENPC cap at the beginning of Feb.

Those who scammed Amazon (that they are aware of) will probably not see a dime. You know, the part of the TOS that says they can ban your account and keep the money?

I hope they do come down hard on those scammers- so word spreads and most who are considering doing this won't. 

I'm sure they are working on a solution. Or perhaps they already have a solution and are only mentioning one aspect of it (the 3k cap).

It's in Amazon's best interest to remove these scam books, especially if they are "all star" status. That means a lot of people downloaded it and are probably thinking, "this is crap! Why am I paying $9.99 a month for this?"


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

dianapersaud said:


> It's in Amazon's best interest to remove these scam books, especially if they are "all star" status. That means a lot of people downloaded it and are probably thinking, "this is crap! Why am I paying $9.99 a month for this?"


A very good point.


----------



## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

drno said:


> The reason I mention this scam is the fact that dummies like me and probably you who follow rules went from making 0.5 cent per page read in KU2 to 0.4 cent. Where is the rest of the money going? To scammers. Does Amazon care? No! they pay out of a fixed pot of money and couldn't care less how the money is distributed...





> Basic point: Amazon cannot see how many pages a reader has actually read. Amazon can only see at what page the reader stopped reading.


When people put TOCs in their book and it included links for CHAPTER 1... CHAPTER 2... CHAPTER 5 ... CHAPTER 25... and Author bio in their books... that preceded KU version Next by many, many, years--and it wasn't a scam.

When people put their TOCs at the back of the book so that it allowed customers to read more of the look inside (even though it magically jumped over the content of the book)--not a scam!

When people first bundled two books together... then three... then four... then twenty-four... then an entire library together and sold them for 99 cents--authors went on, and on, and on, about how ingenious it was, and that it allowed them to be discovered, and that it didn't devalue books, and blah, blah, blah, blah.

I hated it, but it wasn't a scam

(and I never heard authors, even ones who hated the practice, call it a scam--Why is it a scam now?).

Could we please stop calling things that have been around longer than KU 1.0, or KU 1.4, or KU 3.0, or KU whatever they think up next, (that weren't scams then) scams because the system doesn't work and it messes up the correct numbers?

...

Now.

Let's talk about scams:

When you get a job, and they tell you they'll pay you by the hour. Yet, their time clock never seems to work and it doesn't record anyone's hours correctly--there's a problem with that.

When you go to pump your gas and the station tells you that you get $ X.xx (9/10 gal.) and for some reason the pump doesn't charge you the correct amount for the gallons you pumped--there's a problem with that.

When your agent who makes 15% commission gets the check from the publisher and he takes a little more than his 15% from the check--there's a problem with that.

When a company tells you that they pay by the mile, and yet, they have no method of correctly adding up the miles you drove--there's a problem with that.

When you hop in a cab and the cabbie's meter doesn't work, so there's really no way of knowing how much you're being charged per mile--there's a problem with that.

If you go to the grocery store and buy a box of cereal, and the box says 32 oz., yet they always put a little less than that in the box--there's a problem with that.

Have you ever noticed how burger joints say things like "Half a pound" or "1/4 pound" or "Huge 3/4 pound burger" and then fall all over themselves to put in wee tiny letters that they're talking about the weight before it's cooked--it's so you won't have a problem with that.

Why is it, when a company tells you that they'll pay you by the page. And then it's discovered that they have absolutely no way to count pages--you don't have a problem with that?

Why do people look at all the things that aren't or never were scams and find fault with them? Is it because you like the company that finds fault with them?

The problem is, the government takes situations where people take money, and then some type of accurately measurable figure, and the offer of a good or service pretty seriously.

So, that company whose time clock never works--can get in trouble for that.

That company whose gas pumps don't work--can get in trouble for that.

That agent who takes a little too much--even though you like him--can get in trouble for that.

That company that pays by the mile and is unable to count miles--they can get in trouble for that.

That cabbie who doesn't know what to charge because his meter is broke--can get in trouble for that.

That cereal maker who never puts the right amount in the package--can get in trouble for that.

That burger place that falls all over itself to put in wee tiny letters "weight before cooking"--it's so they won't get in trouble for that.

Now, it wouldn't be a problem if a broke system paid more than what they are supposed to.

Time clock is broke. You worked twenty hours and get paid for twenty-five. Who cares? Have a nice day.

Cabbie's meter doesn't work. He drove you 10 miles, it charges you for 5. Who cares?

Agent gets check. He's supposed to take 15% but only takes 10%--(ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, _right_)

Who cares?

Now, it wouldn't be a problem if people linked to the back of the book and Amazon overpaid them because their system doesn't work. You would still get paid the correct amount, right? Or more? Who would care?

But...

The problem is, that's not the system they have.

The system they have is a POOL. It's a POT. It's a PIE (and there's only so many pieces that get shared between everyone).

It's a system where she had more reads than you (she wins). You had less reads than her (you lose).

So that means, when they overpay someone--they're under paying someone else.

That means when you work your 40. And Joe Blow works his 40, but the system gives him 45 because it's broken. It means your gonna get 35. (There's a problem with that).

Because he wins--you lose with a broken system.

It's important when paying people, that your system of payment accurately reflects what they are supposed to get paid. And it doesn't really matter the reason why it fails. But it has to work correctly regardless of your intentions or who you are. The measurements have to be correct. This. Is. Serious.

So stop looking for who's to blame when the system's broken. Fix the system. (Because you can get in trouble for that).


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

A.R. Williams said:


> When people put TOCs in their book and it included links for CHAPTER 1&#8230; CHAPTER 2 &#8230; CHAPTER 5 &#8230; CHAPTER 25&#8230; and Author bio in their books&#8230; that preceded KU version Next by many, many, years--and it wasn't a scam.
> 
> When people put their TOCs at the back of the book so that it allowed customers to read more of the look inside (even though it magically jumped over the content of the book)--not a scam!
> 
> ...


The problem with that analogy is that we're not Amazon's employees. I think putting the blame on anyone other than the people knowingly scamming in an attempt to steal money is a slippery slope. Is no one responsible for their own actions? They know they're doing wrong. They know they have to do it quickly, too. When Amazon starts banning accounts and withholding money from the scammers, is that somehow Amazon's fault? No, because it's very obviously going to happen. If people just followed the rules and did their thing on the up-and-up, there wouldn't be a problem. It's those trying to steal from others and not put the work in themselves creating the problem.


----------



## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> The problem with that analogy is that we're not Amazon's employees. I think putting the blame on anyone other than the people knowingly scamming in an attempt to steal money is a slippery slope. Is no one responsible for their own actions? They know they're doing wrong. They know they have to do it quickly, too. When Amazon starts banning accounts and withholding money from the scammers, is that somehow Amazon's fault? No, because it's very obviously going to happen. If people just followed the rules and did their thing on the up-and-up, there wouldn't be a problem. It's those trying to steal from others and not put the work in themselves creating the problem.


It doesn't matter.

When you go to the gas station to pump your gas. You are not an employee. Cab ride? Not an employee. Rent a car? Not an employee. It has nothing to do with whether you are an Amazon's employee.

It has everything to do with their system is broken. If they actually counted the real number of pages read--would people be able to scam by putting links to the back of the book?

They say they pay by the page, *YET* _they can't_ count pages. Does that really make sense to you?

Where's the real scam coming from?

Why call practices that existed long before KU was created scams because Amazon's system doesn't function the way it should.

Try looking at it like this:

If Joe Blow punches in early and punches out late--what does that have to do with your hours? If you punch in correctly, they still owe you what they owe you. They can't say well he cheated now we're taking away your hours.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

A.R. Williams said:


> It doesn't matter.
> 
> When you go to the gas station to pump your gas. You are not an employee. Cab ride? Not an employee. Rent a car? Not an employee. It has nothing to do with whether you are an Amazon's employee.
> 
> ...


Amazon tracks by the "furthest page read." People are still getting paid for their work. The problem stems from people trying to abuse the system. Would Amazon be better setting a .005 number for page reads? Sure. We can't dictate their business practices for them, though. We know the deal when we sign up for Select. That's on us. The graft is on the scammers. People abusing the system, whatever system, should reap the punishment. The guy trying to steal gas should be prosecuted. The guy cheating on his time slip should be fired. Their actions do have a negative consequence on others, whether it be a freeze on overtime, higher prices to cover stolen goods, etc. They should be held responsible for their actions. Why does no one ever take responsibility for knowingly doing wrong?


----------



## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Amazon tracks by the "furthest page read." People are still getting paid for their work. The problem stems from people trying to abuse the system. Would Amazon be better setting a .005 number for page reads? Sure. We can't dictate their business practices for them, though. We know the deal when we sign up for Select. That's on us. The graft is on the scammers. People abusing the system, whatever system, should reap the punishment. The guy trying to steal gas should be prosecuted. The guy cheating on his time slip should be fired. Their actions do have a negative consequence on others, whether it be a freeze on overtime, higher prices to cover stolen goods, etc. They should be held responsible for their actions. Why does no one ever take responsibility for knowingly doing wrong?


Still doesn't matter.

Someone may hold up the place you work. But if the company doesn't declare bankruptcy they still have to pay you your wages.

Stuff happens--but the show must go on. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Okay, there are scammers who are trying abuse the system. There are always people trying to abuse what ever system is in existence. There are also people who are not scammers being called that because the system doesn't work.

You can't say something is a scam because your system is broken and it mucks up what you're trying to do.

Having a TOC listing every chapter in your book. Is it a scam? Or is it a good practice when designing an e-Book?

Putting the TOC at the back of a book? Scam? Or a good way to let readers see more of the beginning of the book?

Bundling. A scam? Or a good way to provide extra value to readers?

Paying by the page. But you can't count pages?! ...

Scam? Mistake? Lack of foresight? Miscalculation? ...

When the big five and Apple got together because they wanted to protect the industry and paper distribution. Was that wrong? Were they trying to do right?

It doesn't matter. The manner in which they acted was corrupt. So who knows, maybe Amazon was a dangerous monopoly, it did not give the big five and Apple the right to price fix. All the howls of protestation from the trads, from Apple, from the writers in the trad-pub ecosystem didn't matter. The price fix six broke the law.

Just the same. It doesn't matter that Amazon has people trying to take advantage of their system. Their system is broken and it needs to be corrected.

The gas station that continually gyps customers by giving them less gas will be fined. If they continually do it they will be closed down. It doesn't matter if some people steal gas.

The company with an inaccurate time clock will be fined or sued. It doesn't matter that Joe Blow tried to sneak in hours.

It doesn't matter if someone makes an honest mistake. (Purchasing a time clock from a place that makes bad time clocks) When employees punch in, they need an accurate measurement of the time they worked.

Amazon's system is broken. Period.

Everyone knows it. Everyone admits it. No one disputes it--but they still make excuses for it.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

A.R. Williams said:


> Still doesn't matter.
> 
> Someone may hold up the place you work. But if the company doesn't declare bankruptcy they still have to pay you your wages.
> 
> ...


So no accountability for the people breaking the rules and purposely trying to steal? I get it. I shall move on.


----------



## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> So no accountability for the people breaking the rules and purposely trying to steal? I get it. I shall move on.


So no accountability for people who create a broken system that doesn't pay people correctly? I get it. I shall move on, too.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Amazon utterly failed to do any sort of due diligence before they rolled out KU. Anyone with half a brain could have told them in advance exactly what was going to happen. There were topics here addressing exactly the types of problems that were going to crop up as soon as Amazon announced KU 1.0. A number of us here publicly brainstormed ways to game the system before it was even live. The same thing was going on elsewhere in the darker corners of the internet. It should have been going on in Amazon HQ, but apparently it wasn't. Because when it comes to ebooks, Amazon is the honey badger.

They don't care that their store is full of plagiarized books. They could stop it easily, but they don't. Because they don't care. They make money off the plagiarized books just as well as they do on the legit ones. And if some writer does get p*ss y enough about their work being plagiarized that Amazon bestirs themselves to take the offending book down, *they keep the money*. They don't return it to the customer (I've bought some, I can say this for a fact). They don't give it to the author whose work was plagiarized (I've been one of these authors and I can say this for a fact). They keep it.

Similarly, they don't give a rat's patootie about whether you are losing money because someone is scamming KU. They didn't care when it was people making $1.30 a pop under KU 1.0 for a TOC and "The End" a page later. They changed the system because it was costing them more money than what they were getting back in also-boughts. If you think writer or publisher complaints had anything to do with it, go talk to Samhain or Cassandra Zara/Krista Lakes or Selena Kitt and see how much Amazon cares what indie publishers and authors think - regardless of how much money they individually make through the system, or how much business they generate for Amazon.

They know the KU 2.0 system is just as broken as 1.0 was, and they don't care about it, either. They know how much they can afford to pay out and still make money, and that's what they'll pay out. They don't care who gets it. A few writers threaten to drop out because they're getting less? So what? There are plenty more willing to sell their soul to Amazon for $0.004 cents a page, or even less. You're a widget. Your book is a widget. They don't *care*. They'll pay you what they want to pay you, and they know you'll take it.

There's a major bug in the keywords system. It's been broken for literally months. Thousands of writers have books with non-functioning keywords and don't realize it. Amazon hasn't fixed it. Contact tech support and they deny that it's a problem. Get them to duplicate it on the phone and admit that it's broken and then do a follow-up a month later? There's no problem. There's never been a problem. Because they don't care. They don't have to fix it. It doesn't matter to them if your keywords are broken. A customer who doesn't buy *your* book will just buy another one instead. So who cares?

That's Amazon. Right there. You can talk all day about scammers and their lack of ethics, but Amazon leaves the door wide open for them and they were doing so long before KU was a gleam in Jeff Bezos' eye. It doesn't do any good to report them if Amazon won't fix the problems at the root of their system. And they're not going to, because they don't have to.


----------



## Wired (Jan 10, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> You can talk all day about scammers and their lack of ethics, but Amazon leaves the door wide open for them and they were doing so long before KU was a gleam in Jeff Bezos' eye. It doesn't do any good to report them if Amazon won't fix the problems at the root of their system. And they're not going to, because they don't have to.


This thread gets more depressing with each new response.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Rosalind James said:


> Here's what my Look Inside looks like on a Montlake book. Tons of stuff before you get to the book, but it looks professional. I think that's important. If a reader can't be bothered to page through the front matter, she probably isn't my reader anyway, as I write long books. Maybe if you write super short books? I'm trying to get into the mindset of a reader who's put off from scrolling with their finger for two seconds to get to the book. (I'm not talking about those authors who write a novel in the form of a dedication to their parrot who inspired the book, all their critique partners, etc. THAT stuff belongs at the back of a book! If at all.)
> 
> I do think titling the chapters can help. Piques interest, perhaps.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010DQX0YI/ref=series_rw_dp_sw#reader_B010DQX0YI


I really quite enjoyed a look at your 'Look Inside'. Your front matter and overall presentation are very professional, and definitely an example I hope to follow. I especially love your idea of titling chapters - definitely piqued my (and my wife's!) interest. I can see why you're doing so well. Thank you for sharing.

ETA - Rosalind, just wondering how you do your formatting - do you use Scrivener? Do you pay a pro formatter? Also, forgive the newbie question, but how do you build your TOC? Is that something that automatically generates on KDP's end, or is it automatically generated when you format with Scrivener? Lots of questions, I know.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I must be terribly naive, but I am having trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that Amazon let KU 2.0 out the door with such a massive, gaping, please-exploit-me-with-the-world's-biggest-exploitation-device hole in the system. I mean, seriously? They only know where you stop, not how you got there? And they thought this was not only going to work, but was going to work _better_? And now, scammers are getting All-Star status? SMH, truly. Please, less of the Dash buttons and drones, more of the basic competence.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic as well.

I look at what the scammers are doing and obviously it's wrong. But, I can't control what any other person will do. I see that many scammers are making a lot of money from their scams. That's unfortunate, but again it's out of my hands. All I can do is write books that I enjoy writing and that I believe other people will enjoy reading. If I concentrate too much on the chaos that ensues all around me, I won't be giving my storytelling efforts the attention they deserve.

Sure, there's lots of people out there ripping people off. Sure, Amazon isn't nailing every perpetrator. And yes, in the end I'm probably not making as much money on Amazon's platform as I otherwise might had all those scammers been caught and kicked out - but again, it's out of my hands. It does me no good to worry about it.

Here's what I know: I'm a writer. I love to write. I love to tell stories. I love the idea of being able to sell my stories. Okay, so making a living wage doing that is getting tougher because of increased competition and yes, because of bad people scamming the system. Oh well. That's life. No sense dwelling on it. And the reason I say that is not to be glib - please don't take it that way. The reason I say 'c'est la vie' to all the scamming out there is because even given the difficulty of earning a living from my writing, I have to remember that no matter what, as long as I'm fortunate enough to do what I love - to write - I will always be rich. Sure, that sounds as cornball as a $2 greeting card, but it's no less true. I'm grateful for the opportunity to sell my stories, and as long as that opportunity exists, I'll do it even when the sky is actually falling.

That said, do I hope to one day earn enough to quit my day job and to earn enough so that my wife can do the same? Of course. What a gift that would be! But to concentrate on that lofty goal so singularly so as to rue the existence of anyone who's accomplished that by using less than moral methods - well - it undermines the initial spark of passion I'd had for storytelling to begin with. The hatred and the worry and the dread would be beneath me. If I allowed myself to fall into that, or rather, if concentrating on the negatives were to happen I might as well give up the ghost because assuredly my prose would be robbed of "that thing" - something I might define as my voice or perhaps something as esoteric as gratitude. 

However you define it, I believe worrying or concentrating your energy too much on digital publishing issues that are largely outside the realm of your control saps you of the types of energy best put into your storytelling/writing/marketing efforts - whether those forms of energy manifest themselves as happiness, purity, gratitude, benevolence, creativity, euphoria, inspiration, compulsion, dedication, etc etc etc. Keeping your stress low and your spirits high, in my opinion, is important to your work. Your work, nay, your passion deserves your best iteration of yourself. Part of your 'job', in my opinion, is to keep your mind supple and as stress-free as possible. Your gifted, creative brain is your potential livelihood. Concentrating excessively on the BS that surrounds you does a disservice to you, that beautiful money-maker between your ears, and to the readers who otherwise wind up deprived of all you truly have to offer.


----------



## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I think I see what A. R. Williams is talking about. The thing is, the fact that Amazon isn't actually counting pages isn't just a problem because people are scamming. Those are a problem and those books should be removed. But even if everyone was responsible and didn't scam, there are a whole lot of legitimate scenarios in which people will be being paid for pages that aren't being read. 

Say you download a box set because there's a book in it by an author you like. Since you don't know the other authors, you only read the one book, but if it's near the end of the book, the authors get paid for all the books, even though only one was read. 

Say you put your TOC in the back of the book, because that's what the formatting guide you read said was a good idea, so you skip to the end, then go back to the first chapter, but only read half of it, because you decide the book isn't for you.

Say you're the type of person who likes to read the ending of the book before starting, just to see if you're going to hate it. So you skip to the last page, read the ending, and decide it's not your book.

All of these scenarios generate a full read for that author, even though the person didn't read the full book. 

If Amazon was taking the hit for this, then I wouldn't care. But it is taking money out of the pot for pages that aren't being read. Even though no one is deliberately trying to scam.


----------



## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Ken Ward said:


> Just thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic as well.
> 
> I look at what the scammers are doing and obviously it's wrong. But, I can't control what any other person will do. I see that many scammers are making a lot of money from their scams. That's unfortunate, but again it's out of my hands. All I can do is write books that I enjoy writing and that I believe other people will enjoy reading. If I concentrate too much on the chaos that ensues all around me, I won't be giving my storytelling efforts the attention they deserve.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said and I feel exactly the same way. What's going to end up happening here is that Amazon is going to stop paying for pages read and it will be period, end of conversation. It always happens that way, bad apples ruin it for everyone else, but we, the honest people who take pride in our work will go on to earn a buck with honesty and dignity every time somebody buys our books.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Amazon supposedly sets the start point at chapter one, so how do these links even show up outside of the Look Inside? Are readers seriously taking the time to go back through the Go To menu to click a link? I guess the chance to win some prize is a lure.

Do these scammers have some way of setting their start points at the scam link? Can they bypass the supposed set start point that Amazon calculates? Maybe this is what we should be looking at, so we can have our books start at the cover no matter what, thus getting those extra few pages from the front matter.

But I agree with Kelli. Amazon doesn't care about anything that hurts us. We're nothing to them. A dime a gross and increasing daily. They've known how KU was going to work out from the beginning. When folks here and elsewhere were celebrating about how short story writers were going to get what was coming to them in KUv2, it was nasty. How nice that Amazon stopped all those scammers!

Yeah.

Amazon will only do something when enough customers complain (that is, people who've bought/borrowed the books in question) not other authors. When the revenue drops another ill-conceived "fix" will be announced, or maybe not. Then the wrecking ball will slam into all of us, and the guilty will just regroup and carry on.

They know all about the cheater links, the title stuffing, the mis-categorization, the scraped content, the nonsense "books" stuffed into a file, the plagiarized work. All of it. It's been going on for a long time. And they don't care until it hits the bottom line, because they are in this to make money.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Ken Ward said:


> Just thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic as well.
> 
> I look at what the scammers are doing and obviously it's wrong. But, I can't control what any other person will do. I see that many scammers are making a lot of money from their scams. That's unfortunate, but again it's out of my hands. All I can do is write books that I enjoy writing and that I believe other people will enjoy reading. If I concentrate too much on the chaos that ensues all around me, I won't be giving my storytelling efforts the attention they deserve.
> 
> ...


This is a great sentiment. Really. On the flip side there are people running a business and working full time as authors and you just told them not to worry if they can feed their family next month. There are a lot of people making a full-time living and if your monthly income suddenly takes a fifty percent hit ... Or a twenty percent hit ... Or even s ten percent hit because people are stealing, I think worried authors have a right to be upset about whatever is affecting their business.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2016)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Amazon supposedly sets the start point at chapter one, so how do these links even show up outside of the Look Inside? Are readers seriously taking the time to go back through the Go To menu to click a link? I guess the chance to win some prize is a lure.
> 
> Do these scammers have some way of setting their start points at the scam link? Can they bypass the supposed set start point that Amazon calculates? Maybe this is what we should be looking at, so we can have our books start at the cover no matter what, thus getting those extra few pages from the front matter.


Authors can set the start point of their books. It isn't anything scammy about doing that. For example, I have one start in a preface before the first chapter to make sure readers know it's there. The other I set to start on my first chapter. If you haven't set it, yes Amazon will attempt to guess at where the first chapter is, but I prefer setting it to leaving it to them, particularly on stories where I don't number chapters, or my next one which will have seven parts.


----------



## Gessert Books (Apr 20, 2015)

The underlying issue is paying authors by the page, where a page is an abstract, moving target when applied to ebook. There is no such thing as an ebook page. This inspires people to try and crack the code, and figure what on Earth an ebook "page" might be, and specifically Amazon's non-obvious definition of one. When honest folks are driven to tinker and strain to solve this puzzle in order to receive fair compensation, it's definitely no surprise that dishonest folks would do the same to play it in their favor.

Seems like the best thing Amazon could do to curb bad behavior is just to have some transparency about the way they're paying folks. And if the way they're paying folks doesn't stand up to that level of transparency, perhaps that's what needs to change.


----------



## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

Anma Natsu said:


> Authors can set the start point of their books. It isn't anything scammy about doing that. For example, I have one start in a preface before the first chapter to make sure readers know it's there. The other I set to start on my first chapter. If you haven't set it, yes Amazon will attempt to guess at where the first chapter is, but I prefer setting it to leaving it to them, particularly on stories where I don't number chapters, or my next one which will have seven parts.


How does one set the start point?


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

phillipgessert said:


> Seems like the best thing Amazon could do to curb bad behavior is just to have some transparency about the way they're paying folks. And if the way they're paying folks doesn't stand up to that level of transparency, perhaps that's what needs to change.


Except that the very last thing Amazon wants is transparency. They want to keep the content providers guessing. They want them off balance and nervous. They leave their policies so vague that they're meaningless. They change major policies without notice, and without regard to the upset they're going to cause. They want everyone constantly worried that if they rock the boat too much that their accounts might be shut down. It's how they do business, and it's not just with the writers. They do the exact same thing outside their digital media arm. Plenty of people who have either sold through them directly or worked for companies that do have spoken up about this here before.

Amazon has no interest in behaving ethically. They're sociopathic as a company, and they're going to do precisely nothing unless the vast majority of the benefit accrues to them.

How difficult would it be for them to implement a plagiarism detection system? There are plug-and-play systems already available that they could use if they didn't have the desire or ability to implement something in-house. They've been in common use for years in other areas where plagiarism is a serious issue. But Amazon doesn't even make the attempt.

How difficult would it be for them to implement a system that would stop these computer generated scam books? They could hire half a dozen $20/hr people to spot check books as they're published and catch the vast majority of them. It would take someone less than a minute per ebook to identify it as computer generated trash. Exactly how much would that cut into the bottom line of a multi-billion dollar company? So why don't they do it?

It would be trivial to come up with a sane definition for a page that eliminated the possibility of gaming through formatting voodoo. Just like it would be trivial for them to give us a 2 sentence paragraph telling us what the best practices are for entering our keywords into their system, rather than making us guess. The inner workings of A9 would still be a secret and they wouldn't be giving anything away. We just wouldn't have to waste a zillion hours trying to figure out how to enter keywords into their UI so that they're effective.

They don't want transparency. They want you to know as little as possible. They want to keep the systems completely arbitrary so they can change or make up the rules as they go along in their own favor.

FFS, stop defending them like they're some kind of corporate white knight. A lot of people here make a lot of money from them. That's fine. That's business, and you do what you have to do to keep the lights on. But stop acting like they're doing anything at all for *our* benefit. Because they're not. They'll throw us under the bus in a split second if they can figure out how to get content that would sell out of 3rd world ESL writers working in sweatshops for less. That's not directed at you, Phillip. It's meant for the fanbois who come out of the woodwork any time anyone says anything negative about Amazon on kboards, no matter how egregious the BS happens to be.


----------



## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

> How does one set the start point?


Here's Amazon's instructions: Place the cursor at the opening chapter of your book. Click "Insert > Bookmark." In the Bookmark name field, type Start and click "Add."

The details are found on this page: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A17W8UM0MMSQX6


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is a great sentiment. Really. On the flip side there are people running a business and working full time as authors and you just told them not to worry if they can feed their family next month. There are a lot of people making a full-time living and if your monthly income suddenly takes a fifty percent hit ... Or a twenty percent hit ... Or even s ten percent hit because people are stealing, I think worried authors have a right to be upset about whatever is affecting their business.


I wouldn't ever wish to deprive anyone their right to be upset. It's just that I don't think getting upset does anything for a writer but make it harder for them to write well and run their business to the best of their ability. I view worry as inaction, to me, that's the greater threat to a writer's livelihood.


----------



## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

Not Lu said:


> Here's Amazon's instructions: Place the cursor at the opening chapter of your book. Click "Insert > Bookmark." In the Bookmark name field, type Start and click "Add."
> 
> The details are found on this page: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A17W8UM0MMSQX6


Thanks, are those instructions for MSWord? Or something else?

Anyone know how to do this in Scrivener?


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

GrandFenwick said:


> Thanks, are those instructions for MSWord? Or something else?
> 
> Anyone know how to do this in Scrivener?


They specifically cite MS Word but I use LibreOffice and the process is similar. A bookmark is a standard feature on most, if not all, word processing programs. It may work differently between products.

You can check how the bookmark works in the "preview" function before you publish.


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> FFS, stop defending them like they're some kind of corporate white knight. A lot of people here make a lot of money from them. That's fine. That's business, and you do what you have to do to keep the lights on. But stop acting like they're doing anything at all for *our* benefit. Because they're not. They'll throw us under the bus in a split second if they can figure out how to get content that would sell out of 3rd world ESL writers working in sweatshops for less. That's not directed at you, Phillip. It's meant for the fanbois who come out of the woodwork any time anyone says anything negative about Amazon on kboards, no matter how egregious the BS happens to be.


CO-$#[email protected]#@#SIGN! It's insane.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Ken Ward said:


> I wouldn't ever wish to deprive anyone their right to be upset. It's just that I don't think getting upset does anything for a writer but make it harder for them to write well and run their business to the best of their ability. I view worry as inaction, to me, that's the greater threat to a writer's livelihood.


Getting upset and sharing that upset with a community like Kboards allows us to band together and make noise. Amazon seems less easily panicked by bad PR than many companies, but I'm sure they don't want to endure more of it than they have to.

I try to keep my author Fb page a happy place, but I sure as heck will be mentioning this. It's appalling.


----------



## TessOliver (Dec 2, 2010)

Becca has the perfect word for this "appalling". I'd like to add depressing and frustrating. For those of us who sit hunched over our computers every day, fretting over every plot line, section of dialogue, and character arc so we can produce books that, with any luck, people will want to read, it's terribly aggravating.

I pulled my books from other sites where I've always sold well. I, for one, loved the idea that readers would be able to pay one low price and read all my books. I thought, well, this might be fun. And I do feel that the KU program is great for expanding my reader base. 

I know that it's getting harder and harder to reach the page goal for the bonuses. I read up-thread that some of these page scammers are getting the bonuses. That's disheartening, to say the least. It seems to me, even if Amazon can't stop these books from being published that the least they could do is check those top 100 authors to make sure they are legit. 100 isn't such an enormous number in the scheme of things. 

If this continues, I think Amazon should at least drop the exclusivity clause so those of us who take pride in our work and our profession can sell our books on other sites.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

The interracial romance section is being taken over by writers selling 800 page books with a bunch of stories. They sell the same stories in every 0.99 boxset.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Perhaps we should all email Jeff Bezos and suggest he change the name of the company to Scamazon?


----------



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Only the actual pages borrowed qualify one for the bonus. I would suspect that scammers aren't getting many buys. It takes at least 3.5-4 million reads to qualify for a bonus. Therefore at the Jan payout, an All-Star would be making a minimum of around 15 or 16k/month from borrows and another 500 in bonus for the lowest level.
> 
> To be technical about it.
> 
> I have no idea how big a problem this actually is--how many people are getting significant borrows with these techniques. Mostly, I just do my thing, and I've only heard about this recently. I suppose we'll see what Amazon does about it. They don't like customer complaints and they respond to them. That, I know.


In a nutshell, these are sage words, Rosalind speaks. A good story, good editing, good cover, good blurb, and good marketing will take you further than any scam. No matter what anyone else does, I'll just keep on doing what I have been. Amazon's been good to me and any changes they might make, I'd expect them to be beneficial for me.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> Getting upset and sharing that upset with a community like Kboards allows us to band together and make noise. Amazon seems less easily panicked by bad PR than many companies, but I'm sure they don't want to endure more of it than they have to.
> 
> I try to keep my author Fb page a happy place, but I sure as heck will be mentioning this. It's appalling.


This!

This thread and the one re the recent review situation has been great for passionate venting/debate/discussion. In addition to the excellent source of info, the interaction among Kboarders has much more value than we realize.

In lots of ways, these discussions are good exercise.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Amazon supposedly sets the start point at chapter one, so how do these links even show up outside of the Look Inside? Are readers seriously taking the time to go back through the Go To menu to click a link? I guess the chance to win some prize is a lure.


FWIW, when I open a new book on kindle, the first thing I do is 'go to' the cover. Then I page through the front matter to see if there's anything interesting or useful there -- sometimes there's a short prologue or relevant quote that probably really should have been the 'start' point.

I don't follow any links. I ignore the ToC -- if it's there -- except to perhaps note how many chapters there are.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Ken Ward said:


> I wouldn't ever wish to deprive anyone their right to be upset. It's just that I don't think getting upset does anything for a writer but make it harder for them to write well and run their business to the best of their ability. I view worry as inaction, to me, that's the greater threat to a writer's livelihood.


That's you. If you can't write while upset, don't. You don't share the same writing process with everyone else. You are doing exactly what you preach against and telling others how to feel and act.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Ken Ward said:


> I really quite enjoyed a look at your 'Look Inside'. Your front matter and overall presentation are very professional, and definitely an example I hope to follow. I especially love your idea of titling chapters - definitely piqued my (and my wife's!) interest. I can see why you're doing so well. Thank you for sharing.
> 
> ETA - Rosalind, just wondering how you do your formatting - do you use Scrivener? Do you pay a pro formatter? Also, forgive the newbie question, but how do you build your TOC? Is that something that automatically generates on KDP's end, or is it automatically generated when you format with Scrivener? Lots of questions, I know.


Just saw this. That book is actually published by Montlake, so Amazon does the formatting. Any of my books not in that series are formatted by Everything But the Book. Before that, though, I did my own, just wrote it "formatted" by using Styles in Word, and it was fine if not gorgeous. .3 indents, flush left first paragraphs, Times New Roman 12-point type for normal paragraphs with 17-point leading. That came out looking fine.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> Here's what my Look Inside looks like on a Montlake book. Tons of stuff before you get to the book, but it looks professional. I think that's important. If a reader can't be bothered to page through the front matter, she probably isn't my reader anyway, as I write long books. Maybe if you write super short books? I'm trying to get into the mindset of a reader who's put off from scrolling with their finger for two seconds to get to the book. (I'm not talking about those authors who write a novel in the form of a dedication to their parrot who inspired the book, all their critique partners, etc. THAT stuff belongs at the back of a book! If at all.)
> 
> I do think titling the chapters can help. Piques interest, perhaps.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010DQX0YI/ref=series_rw_dp_sw#reader_B010DQX0YI


Your book does look professional and doesn't have too much front matter. Regarding the chapter titles. It could pique interest, but I'm not keen on chapter titles. Sometimes they act as a sort of spoiler and I don't like hints about what is coming in the next chapter, unless it is a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter. But others might disagree.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's you. If you can't write while upset, don't. You don't share the same writing process with everyone else. You are doing exactly what you preach against and telling others how to feel and act.


My intention was to help, I apologize if that didn't come across and instead I've offended you. You're right, my approach is my approach and not a panacea for everyone. I think something along the lines of "don't worry, be happy" sums up my feelings a little better. **extends olive branch**


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Ken Ward said:


> My intention was to help, I apologize if that didn't come across and instead I've offended you. You're right, my approach is my approach and not a panacea for everyone. I think something along the lines of "don't worry, be happy" sums up my feelings a little better. **extends olive branch**


I don't think you realize how serious this is. It's hard to "be happy" when one's livelihood is being threatened.

As many of us work hard to produce quality books, scammers are putting hundreds of books in the KU system. These books may recycle the same stories over and over reversing their order, include foreign text, add cookbooks or unrelated material to a genre book such as romance etc. And they will try to maximize the number of pages for the largest pay out. One recent offering included 70 Bonus stories in one book.

Using techniques at the start of the book such as Click here to win an Amazon Gift Card, answer a riddle etc. the reader is taken from the front of the book all the way to the back. Because the system is not working correctly, the scammer is given credit for all of the pages read. At 3000 max KENPC and say .0048 a page read, the scammer is raking in close to $15 a book.

These scammers can easily load hundreds of books into the system for easy money. This dilutes the pot for everyone. And may even result in KU Bonuses for most pages read for some of these scammers. Yes some of these scammers have gotten bonuses.

Can you see where it would be more than a little upsetting to watch money that should be split among honest authors being given to those that regurgitate the same stories over and over, use techniques to get pages read that weren't etc.?

There are videos teaching folks how to game the system and more and more of these books are flooding the KU market. These scammers are advertising their "bundles" on Facebook now. If nothing is done this will continue to get worse till the entire system is destroyed.

I understood why Amazon went from KU1 to KU2. But they are paying for page reads and they don't know how to tell how many pages are really read! Not to mention these scam books are giving users a poor consumer experience.


----------



## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

Ken Ward was basically saying the same thing as Rosalind and Wayne so no olive branch required from my point of view. However, if everyone had the same philosophy not a whole lot would change in this world. So sure, I won't let it stop me writing (that's a given) but talk about it, analyze it, express strong feelings of justifiable anger about it? Yes, that I will do.

I'm boggled by this to be honest. I'm trying to get into the headspace of a company that SAID they were paying out per page read and in practice were paying out based on something quite different. (As A Y Williams said in his post.) And then to reward those "authors" who deliver a terrible customer experience with even more money and visibility? 

Nothing destroys credibility faster for the subscriber or the author. Sela posted some screen shots of these books in another thread and they looked like flyers for a pyramid scheme. Unbelievable.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

KittKat said:


> I don't think you realize how serious this is. It's hard to "be happy" when one's livelihood is being threatened.
> 
> As many of us work hard to produce quality books, scammers are putting hundreds of books in the KU system. These books may recycle the same stories over and over reversing their order, include foreign text, add cookbooks or unrelated material to a genre book such as romance etc. And they will try to maximize the number of pages for the largest pay out. One recent offering included 70 Bonus stories in one book.
> 
> ...


Suppose that you've got a neighborhood garage sale going on, and everyone is bringing their stuff to one big house that's conveniently located near the subdivision entrance. The owners are hosting the sale in exchange for a percentage of the profits. You then find out that the owners of the house aren't shutting their garage door and thieves are coming in during the night and stealing items intended for the garage sale. You call the owners half a dozen times, but they refuse to shut the door or do anything to the thieves. Now, is it your job to spend your time playing night watchman and trying to nab the thieves just because you've got some stuff in this garage? Or do you pull your stuff out of the garage and take it home until the owners get a freaking clue and shut the door?

When KU (and the main store) become so flooded with this garbage that the readers begin to leave and the authors with books in KU start to pull them out and the also-bought dollars for big screens and Nikes drop as a result, then Amazon will take notice and do something. Of course knowing the way that Amazon deals with problems, their "solution" will be drastic and all out of line with the actual problem, and tons of people who are innocent of any wrongdoing are going to get slammed right along with the guilty ones. And in the end it won't even solve the problem, it will just make the scammers a little more cautious for a while, because that's how Amazon deals with problems.

Oh, I'd also note that Amazon has managed to spend the time and effort to change their magical mystery KENPC calculation so that most everyone's total page counts dropped by about 20%. Funny how they can do that, but they still can't accurately determine how many pages are actually being read, when that's the cornerstone of the entire system that they put in place 8 months ago, or bother to take even trivial steps to stop the tsunami of scam books coming into KU. Kind of gives you an idea of where their priorities are, doesn't it?


----------



## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

If everyone who is angered by this clicks to withdraw their books from exclusivity, Amazon will have it fixed in a week.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The idea that not getting upset is somehow making it so nothing changes . . . I don't get the connection. How does getting upset cause a change?

Not that getting upset is bad or wrong in any way. Of course it isn't. But I can get as upset as I like. It isn't going to stop this happening or make Amazon fix it faster. What will make them fix it is one thing. Customer complaints.

When customers complained that they couldn't find novels in KU1 (and Amazon was paying out $50 to authors for every erotica reader's book-a-night fix of 5K of sexystuff and only getting $10 back), we got KU2. When customers complained that ebooks were formatted with extra spacing and all the other stuff to maximize KENPC, we got KENPC 2.0. They also complained about the gigantic bundles, so we got the 3,000-KENPC limit.

What do I expect to happen now? That within a month or two, the limit will be dropped to 1,000 KENPC. That would allow a very long epic fantasy volume to be read in full, but limit boxed sets. Why, though, should boxed sets be in KU at all? Typically they get priced at 99 cents for 10 books or whatever. They've been a way for authors to get visibility and sell their other books in a series. Fine. That's great. They don't have to be a way for authors to get paid as if they put out a new book. They've never been that--when they were paperback anthologies in the library, or during these last few indie years. 

When that happens, there will be a lot of complaints that the scammers have ruined things. But Amazon isn't caring about that. They're caring about what customers want. Customers want books, regular books, and they want to be able to find them, not to trawl their way through miscategorized bundles of keyword-stuffed titles clogging up their Interracial Romance or whatever it is. I expect the scamming would die down then, because $4 on a book probably isn't enough of a hook for scammers.

I wish they'd fix it NOW. You bet I do. But I'm guessing they'll fix it soon. Meanwhile, I have two choices. Stay in, and make pretty good money, or go wide. For me, staying in makes sense. If I do that--well, I could write to Amazon, I guess. Or I could just go on and write my next book. That's probably a more profitable use of my energy.

And if you think, easy for me to say, because I make good money--consider that people who make the most money are also losing the most to the scammers, and simply to those who adapt fast to whatever market and put out short stuff for KU1, bundles now, whatever.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> The idea that not getting upset is somehow making it so nothing changes . . . I don't get the connection. How does getting upset cause a change?


No one said being upset would make things change. But if you are upset with how things are working you are more likely to try and get things corrected than sit back and "be happy" and hope that Amazon figures it out and change magically happens without bringing it to their attention.



> Not that getting upset is bad or wrong in any way. Of course it isn't. But I can get as upset as I like. It isn't going to stop this happening or make Amazon fix it faster. What will make them fix it is one thing. Customer complaints.


It's good you're not upset. But many authors are. I think it's reasonable for anyone to be upset when they are losing money in their paychecks every month due to scammers. Some authors may have even missed out on a Bonus because a scammer nabbed what should have rightfully been theirs. Should we all just sit back and not express our concerns but hope it's taken care of because MAYBE Amazon knows about it?
One of my author friends wrote to KDP expressing her concerns and was told that no it was impossible for someone to get paid for page reads when the pages weren't read. But others have tested it and YES it is very possible. Does this leave you feeling confident about their awareness?



> When customers complained that they couldn't find novels in KU1 (and Amazon was paying out $50 to authors for every erotica reader's book-a-night fix of 5K of sexystuff and only getting $10 back), we got KU2. When customers complained that ebooks were formatted with extra spacing and all the other stuff to maximize KENPC, we got KENPC 2.0. They also complained about the gigantic bundles, so we got the 3,000-KENPC limit.
> 
> What do I expect to happen now? That within a month or two, the limit will be dropped to 1,000 KENPC. That would allow a very long epic fantasy volume to be read in full, but limit boxed sets. Why, though, should boxed sets be in KU at all? Typically they get priced at 99 cents for 10 books or whatever. They've been a way for authors to get visibility and sell their other books in a series. Fine. That's great. They don't have to be a way for authors to get paid as if they put out a new book. They've never been that--when they were paperback anthologies in the library, or during these last few indie years.
> 
> When that happens, there will be a lot of complaints that the scammers have ruined things. But Amazon isn't caring about that. They're caring about what customers want. Customers want books, regular books, and they want to be able to find them, not to trawl their way through miscategorized bundles of keyword-stuffed titles clogging up their Interracial Romance or whatever it is. I expect the scamming would die down then, because $4 on a book probably isn't enough of a hook for scammers.


You are very wrong. If scammers are scamming for $1.35 which they were with KU1, why wouldn't they scam for $4? That makes no sense at all. They can easily put bogus crap on Amazon in minutes and make a buck and they do and will. And now there are videos teaching them how. Yes it's gotten that bad.


> > I wish they'd fix it NOW. You bet I do. But I'm guessing they'll fix it soon. Meanwhile, I have two choices. Stay in, and make pretty good money, or go wide. For me, staying in makes sense. If I do that--well, I could write to Amazon, I guess. Or I could just go on and write my next book. That's probably a more profitable use of my energy.
> >
> > And if you think, easy for me to say, because I make good money--consider that people who make the most money are also losing the most to the scammers, and simply to those who adapt fast to whatever market and put out short stuff for KU1, bundles now, whatever.
> 
> ...


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> The idea that not getting upset is somehow making it so nothing changes . . . I don't get the connection. How does getting upset cause a change?
> 
> Not that getting upset is bad or wrong in any way. Of course it isn't. But I can get as upset as I like. It isn't going to stop this happening or make Amazon fix it faster. What will make them fix it is one thing. Customer complaints.
> 
> ...


I look for the cap to lower, too, and maybe an all-out ban on box sets and omnibuses at some point. Amazon will prefer pushing the single title and want to clean up the store, and the most effective way to do that now is lower the hammer and bar everyone (even those trying to do things the right way) from doing big box sets. Then the scammers will think of something new, but Amazon is clearly going to do something. The first cap was only the beginning.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amazon doesn't respond to author complaints. Even successful ones. They respond to customer complaints. My suggestion would be, if you're upset, take 10 minutes a day and report all the spammy books you find that day, as a customer.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> When customers complained that they couldn't find novels in KU1 (and Amazon was paying out $50 to authors for every erotica reader's book-a-night fix of 5K of sexystuff and only getting $10 back), we got KU2. When customers complained that ebooks were formatted with extra spacing and all the other stuff to maximize KENPC, we got KENPC 2.0. They also complained about the gigantic bundles, so we got the 3,000-KENPC limit.


How do you know that customer complaints had anything at all to do with this? Honestly, as hard as it is to get customers to complain about the massive amount of miscategorization and mislabeling of books that's rampant in the store now, is it really very likely that Amazon was swamped with so many complaints about ebook formatting that they changed KENPC? And obviously changing the KU payout method did nothing to change those problems, which were largely responsible for customers not being able to find what they wanted in KU or the main store. And why on earth would customers complain about gigantic bundles on sale for 99 cents? That makes absolutely no sense. Based on the rankings they're hugely popular.

Isn't it far more likely that Amazon did these things for their own reasons?


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I look for the cap to lower, too, and maybe an all-out ban on box sets and omnibuses at some point. Amazon will prefer pushing the single title and want to clean up the store, and the most effective way to do that now is lower the hammer and bar everyone (even those trying to do things the right way) from doing big box sets. Then the scammers will think of something new, but Amazon is clearly going to do something. The first cap was only the beginning.


Agreed. Probably ban boxed sets, so only all-new material can be in KU. Same way their bots search for KU material available elsewhere


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> How do you know that customer complaints had anything at all to do with this? Honestly, as hard as it is to get customers to complain about the massive amount of miscategorization and mislabeling of books that's rampant in the store now, is it really very likely that Amazon was swamped with so many complaints about ebook formatting that they changed KENPC? And obviously changing the KU payout method did nothing to change those problems, which were largely responsible for customers not being able to find what they wanted in KU or the main store. And why on earth would customers complain about gigantic bundles on sale for 99 cents? That makes absolutely no sense. Based on the rankings they're hugely popular.
> 
> Isn't it far more likely that Amazon did these things for their own reasons?


I know because my rep told me. Of course she could have been lying, but it's consistent with what I've heard and read from Amazon for a decade. They are focused on the customer experience.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> How do you know that customer complaints had anything at all to do with this? Honestly, as hard as it is to get customers to complain about the massive amount of miscategorization and mislabeling of books that's rampant in the store now, is it really very likely that Amazon was swamped with so many complaints about ebook formatting that they changed KENPC? And obviously changing the KU payout method did nothing to change those problems, which were largely responsible for customers not being able to find what they wanted in KU or the main store. And why on earth would customers complain about gigantic bundles on sale for 99 cents? That makes absolutely no sense. Based on the rankings they're hugely popular.
> 
> Isn't it far more likely that Amazon did these things for their own reasons?


Actually, no. Amazon asked customers what would get them to subscribe to KU. They cited lack of novels as a reason they weren't interested. Amazon asked novel writers what it would take to get them in KU. They said a change in the payout system. Amazon actually does care about keeping shoppers happy so they changed KU to do that so customers would keep coming back. Unfortunately, scammers try to ruin things no matter what and when a new shift comes everyone is going to scream and yell but you can see it's headed our way already.


----------



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Nothing like this happened at Scribd, the other sub service that closed down, did it? (can't remember the name of it). So it seems the pay-per-page thing started the scam. Seems to me only way Zon can realistically keep KU 'clean' and keep ahead of the scammers is curate to a certain degree?


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

The Story of the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation, LLC

You're the owner of a moderately successful strawberry farm. You can sell the strawberries yourself at your roadside stand, but it's a lot of hard work and sales are sporadic and it takes time away from picking more strawberries, so you decide to sell yours through the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation instead.

They agree to pay you $1 for every pound of strawberries that you bring them. The first week you back your truck up to their dock, unload 500 pounds of strawberries, and they pay you $500. You're happy, because it would have taken forever to have sold that many strawberries at your roadside stand.

But next week when you unload your 500 pounds of strawberries, you only get $400. When you go to the Scamazon rep and ask him why, he tells you that they recently adjusted their scales and according to that you only brought them 400 pounds. You insist that you're using the exact same truck and baskets that you were using the week before, and nothing has changed, but he shrugs and says that they have to go by what their scale says When you ask him how they calibrated the scale, he gets cagey and mutters that it's a proprietary method guaranteed to get the absolutely most precise possible measurement of strawberry weights *ever*. Which doesn't make any sense, because a pound is a pound and people have been weighing strawberries using the same method for a very long time. But still, $400 is better than what you'd make selling at your roadside stand so you sigh and go back to picking strawberries.

The next week when you unload, you only get $300. When you find the Scamazon rep and ask him WTF, he says you only gave them 300 pounds this week. You're sure that you delivered the same as last week, though. The truck was full, and all your baskets were in it. When pressed, the rep admits that they're not actually counting every basket because it's too much trouble. They just count the first basket, time how long it takes until the last basket is unloaded, and then assign a count based on the average amount of time it takes their workers to unload a basket from a truck. You agree that sounds very scientific and certainly a lot less trouble than counting every basket, but still have lingering doubts.

When you go back out to the loading dock, you see that the farm up the road has filled the back of their trucks with baskets that are much smaller than yours, and so it takes the dock workers much longer to unload these trucks than yours. They're delivering a lot fewer strawberries, but getting paid more than you are because of the way that Scamazon determines how many strawberries are on a truck. You try to point this out to the sales rep, but you can't find him. You notice a "Complaints" box on his door, but the opening has been taped shut.

Then next week when you unload, you only get $240. When you ask why, the rep tells you that they're getting so many strawberries that they're having to cut the payment per pound from $1 to $0.80. Your jaw drops, because you've seen the trucks with thousands of tiny baskets being unloaded at the dock and you know that Scamazon is using hugely inflated numbers. You tell the rep this. You complain that their scales are shady and that you know that tons of the strawberries they claim to be getting are bogus. The rep looks you in the eye as he lights a Cuban cigar with a $100 bill and tells you that you're welcome to go back to selling your fruit at the side of the road. 

The next week you spot the drivers who brought in the truck from the next farm up the road taking baskets from the back of your truck while it's at the dock and putting them into the back of their own truck. The Scamazon loaders on the dock stand by and do nothing as it happens, and then happily count the stolen baskets in with the others. When you complain, the rep rolls his eyes before snorting a line of cocaine off the ass of the hooker stretched out on his desk. He asks whether you can prove that they were your strawberries, so you show him your distinctive label on the baskets and point out that you're the only person selling your particular breed of strawberries. Grudgingly he agrees that you have a point. The other farm will no longer be allowed to sell your strawberries and won't be paid for the ones they stole. Finally! You feel vindicated. They've finally listened to you. But when you ask for the money for your strawberries that the other company sold, the rep laughs in your face. The other farm sold them the strawberries, so Scamazon can't pay *you* for them. You point out that they were your strawberries in the first place, and the other farm had no right to sell them to Scamazon, but the rep shakes his head sadly. It's simply too complicated, he tells you. There's no way to unravel the Gordian Knot to determine how much you actually lost. You stare at him in shock and ask him who keeps the money. He doesn't answer, being rather too busy snorting another line of coke off of the hooker on his desk. Outside, you see people from the farm up the road stealing strawberries out of other farmers' trucks, but the rep has disappeared with the hooker and you can't find anyone else who'll listen.

You go home and look at your books. You're now making less than half of what you were when you first started selling to Scamazon, even though you're providing them the same amount of strawberries you always have. Your strawberries are just as good as ever, and what's more they're far better than tons of the strawberries that you know Scamazon is selling at the same price as yours. When you flip through the Financial Times, you read that the Scamazon CEO, Jeff Beelzebezos, has just bought a new megayacht and a private island, even though Scamazon hasn't made a profit in 20 years.

The next week the Scamazon rep greets you at the dock with a bill for $160. He coolly tells you that Scamazon sold 200 pounds of your strawberries in India, but that they didn't like them so they were given refunds, which of course comes out of the money paid to you. Your jaw drops. They ate 200 pounds of your strawberries and *every single one* of them asked for refunds? He assures you that they did. Every single one. Perhaps, you suggest, perhaps this is just a little bit suspicious? Perhaps some people just want to eat strawberries without paying for them? Ridiculous, he scoffs. We'd certainly know if anything like that was going on. After the $160 for the refunds is taken out, you go home with a check for $80.

The next week you're presented with another bill for refunds paid. When you wave it angrily under the Scamazon rep's nose, he shrugs. Cost of doing business in India, he tells you. Aha, you think. There's the answer. You inform him that you no longer wish to sell your strawberries in India. You cringe at the evil chuckle which rolls from his throat. You don't get to pick where we sell your strawberries, he tells you. You sell them everywhere we have outlets, or you can go back to selling from your roadside stand. Oh, and by the way, he says as you're about to storm out the door. Since people in India are poor, we won't be selling your strawberries there at $0.80/pound any longer. We're now selling them at $0.20 instead. See you next week.

Now you can barely afford to put gas in your truck to haul your strawberries to Scamazon. You notice that the farms next to yours, which have begun using even tinier baskets, have just bought two new trucks and they've started labeling their strawberries with the same description as yours, even though they're of a much inferior quality and don't actually even have many of the characteristics listed. Others aren't even planting their fields any longer. They're shipping in cheap, low quality  strawberries from India and China and slapping their own brands on the baskets as they load them onto the trucks to go to Scamazon.

As you suck down a bottle of paint thinner vodka, you begin to wonder if you can get your old day job back.


----------



## Ann Grant (Jul 16, 2015)

Fantastic post, KelliWolfe.


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> The Story of the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation, LLC
> 
> You're the owner of a moderately successful strawberry farm. You can sell the strawberries yourself at your roadside stand, but it's a lot of hard work and sales are sporadic and it takes time away from picking more strawberries, so you decide to sell yours through the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation instead.
> 
> They agree to pay you $1 for every pound of strawberries that you bring them. The first week you back your truck up to their dock, unload 500 pounds of strawberries, and they pay you $500. You're happy, because it would have taken forever to have sold that many strawberries at your roadside stand.


The only problem with this analogy is that "Scamazon" didn't offer us a dollar. They offered us whatever amount they deemed fit. And if we didn't like it we could leave...after 90 days. That's what we accepted, and that's what we're getting.


----------



## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

I now have an irrisistible urge for strawberries.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

KaiW said:


> Nothing like this happened at Scribd, the other sub service that closed down, did it? (can't remember the name of it). So it seems the pay-per-page thing started the scam. Seems to me only way Zon can realistically keep KU 'clean' and keep ahead of the scammers is curate to a certain degree?


Well, Scribd didn't allow every book to be borrowed by their subscribers. My free book was allowed to be borrowed, but the rest of the series customers had to pay for. That was determined by Scribd, not me. So I pulled my books out of there.

Their model didn't work for me.

Apparently it didn't work at all, since they are now on the way out.

Scribd and Oyster started this whole subscription model nonsense and Amazon had the funds to "do it right" or better than Scribd. I don't recall hearing any author claim they are making a living off of Scribd's payouts. But there are plenty of authors who are doing well with KU (as in quit the day job).

I am surprised that people are clicking on obvious scam books. I just don't get it.

Anyway, those who are on the fence about going all in to KDP Select will (should) probably wait to see what Amazon does to fix this mess.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

If you don't like KU or feel it's too flawed, you're not forced to be in it. If you'd prefer to be trad pubbed, you can pursue that. If your odds look better wide, go for that. All avenues have their pluses and minuses for sure. Publishing isn't an easy business.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

kcmorgan said:


> The only problem with this analogy is that "Scamazon" didn't offer us a dollar. They offered us whatever amount they deemed fit. And if we didn't like it we could leave...after 90 days. That's what we accepted, and that's what we're getting.


Hm. Did they also tell you that as soon as you withdrew you'd take a rankings hit in the store because they've massively inflated the value of KU borrows versus buys in their ranking algorithms to give books in Select preferential treatment? Even though in the vast majority of cases a sale is worth significantly more than a borrow, and so this makes little sense from a business standpoint unless you're attempting to coerce people to go into Select. How many people have given up on going wide and put their books into Select because Amazon has made it so much harder for books to get into the HNR and Top 100 rankings on sales alone?


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> The Story of the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation, LLC
> 
> You're the owner of a moderately successful strawberry farm. You can sell the strawberries yourself at your roadside stand, but it's a lot of hard work and sales are sporadic and it takes time away from picking more strawberries, so you decide to sell yours through the Scamazon Strawberry Corporation instead.
> 
> ...


10/10 would read again!


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

LadyStarlight said:


> 10/10 would read again!


Same. I especially liked the part about the hookers and blow.

In all seriousness, I trust the KENPC "standard" about as much as that strawberry scale. But I'm willing to stick with it while they work on the system because I get paid a lot more that way. I'm sure there's a potential dealbreaker that could come along, but I'll cross that bridge when they build it.

Your analogy, though, is spot on.


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Hm. Did they also tell you that as soon as you withdrew you'd take a rankings hit in the store because they've massively inflated the value of KU borrows versus buys in their ranking algorithms to give books in Select preferential treatment? Even though in the vast majority of cases a sale is worth significantly more than a borrow, and so this makes little sense from a business standpoint unless you're attempting to coerce people to go into Select. How many people have given up on going wide and put their books into Select because Amazon has made it so much harder for books to get into the HNR and Top 100 rankings on sales alone?


I know. Believe me, I know. I used to be wide before KU got big and all my stuff stopped selling. But my point wasn't that we're not being used and manipulated. Clearly we are. My point is your analogy makes it sound like they broke their promise. They didn't. What people need to realize is they made no promises. If they decide the next pot for KU is five bucks, they are well within their rights to do so, cause that's what we agreed to.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

kcmorgan said:


> I know. Believe me, I know. I used to be wide before KU got big and all my stuff stopped selling. But my point wasn't that we're not being used and manipulated. Clearly we are. My point is your analogy makes it sound like they broke their promise. They didn't. What people need to realize is they made no promises. If they decide the next pot for KU is five bucks, they are well within their rights to do so, cause that's what we agreed to.


It has less to do with them breaking promises than creating an unethical business environment which allows the kind of scamming people have been complaining about so much here lately to flourish. If you have no intention of treating your content providers ethically and you're leaving loophole after loophole in the TOS and business systems to allow yourself the opportunity to screw everyone else over, it also leaves the door open for 3rd party scammers to come in and take advantage of the loopholes for their own advantage.


----------



## jrwilson (Apr 7, 2015)

I remember being devastated when I found out about the KU1 scamlets.  I can't quite work myself up to that level of disappointment this time around.
If I were Amazon, I would completely re-imagine KU. I would only make it available to authors by invitation, with some minimum level of expected quality.  This wouldn't stop people from publishing whatever they want via kdp, just limiting what gets into KU.  This would - hopefully - lead to fewer but higher quality books, and it would also make it something to be proud about.    Also, if you got caught trying to game the system, you'd be out of KU, and will never be invited back.


----------



## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

jrwilson said:


> I remember being devastated when I found out about the KU1 scamlets. I can't quite work myself up to that level of disappointment this time around.
> If I were Amazon, I would completely re-imagine KU. I would only make it available to authors by invitation, with some minimum level of expected quality. This wouldn't stop people from publishing whatever they want via kdp, just limiting what gets into KU. This would - hopefully - lead to fewer but higher quality books, and it would also make it something to be proud about. Also, if you got caught trying to game the system, you'd be out of KU, and will never be invited back.


This doesn't make any sense for Amazon though. They want to have the largest library possible to say to a potential reader: Look you can get 1 bazillion books for $9.95! The fact that 3/4 of those books are scamlets is well no nevermind. I know we think of Amazon as a customer centric company and they are, but obviously they don't think this is adversely impacting their customers. They don't really care if its affecting authors. They aren't going to invest all that people power into reviewing books. Think about the ridiculousness of what they are doing to reviews right now. Do you really want those same people reviewing YOUR BOOK and figuring out if its quality enough for KU? Trust me, you don't.


----------



## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> The idea that not getting upset is somehow making it so nothing changes . . . I don't get the connection. How does getting upset cause a change?
> 
> Not that getting upset is bad or wrong in any way. Of course it isn't. But I can get as upset as I like. It isn't going to stop this happening or make Amazon fix it faster. What will make them fix it is one thing. Customer complaints.


The media is powerful. "Bestselling Kindle Authors Speak Out On X" is a newsworthy story that could change the way the public perceive a company and lead them to take their money elsewhere, so don't imagine that Amazon, or any company, have no stake in what's said, even though it seems like they're doing nothing much at the moment. The industry reacted very quickly (and over-reacted, I think) to the media stories about monster porn a few years ago, leading to Kobo and WHSmith's withdrawal of very many indie titles.

What makes me very nervous is the rate of change in page reads, because we can't tell where this is going to end. For every scammer reported or caught there could be several more adding 20 books to KU this week. Amazon has to get a handle on this, or it'll become a bargain basement junkheap and it'll lose one of its biggest assets as people go elsewhere to find what they're looking for.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

X. Aratare said:


> This doesn't make any sense for Amazon though. They want to have the largest library possible to say to a potential reader: Look you can get 1 bazillion books for $9.95! The fact that 3/4 of those books are scamlets is well no nevermind. I know we think of Amazon as a customer centric company and they are, but obviously they don't think this is adversely impacting their customers. They don't really care if its affecting authors. They aren't going to invest all that people power into reviewing books. Think about the ridiculousness of what they are doing to reviews right now. Do you really want those same people reviewing YOUR BOOK and figuring out if its quality enough for KU? Trust me, you don't.


We readers do care if a bunch of those gazillion "book" are nothing but scams and dreck. If we can't find anything to read, we'll cancel and let Amazon know why. I did that before. Cancel. And I told them why. $10 a month is a lot of money to add to my budget. Might not be to some, but to me it is. That's $120 a year. If its not worth it and I am better off just buying several books a month instead, that I actually own, its time to cancel. 
A service has to have quality content, not just quantity.

Its actually not a bad idea to have some curated content in KU. Even a simple time requirement before being eligible to enter KU might help. As in, must have a 6-12 month no violations type publishing history. Violate the rules, maybe a 2-3 strikes you are out. Since sometimes a violation could be a misunderstanding or such thing.

I sure hope they are working on something. The thing I said before, this scam stuff doesn't just affect who subscribes or who puts books into KU. They show up on any lists. They shoot up in the rankings as folks download them on their device cause the cover looked good. Never mind if the reader returns it right away after maybe clicking some scammy link and finds out its just garbage. Its already been downloaded and from what I read here, it count somehow to move up in rankings. So they get the visibility and are pushing other stuff down. They prevent me, the reader, to browse for books even if I am not looking for a KU read, because they are everywhere. But especially in all romance category, which happens to be my favorite genre. 
Even if I didn't have KU this would still be a huge issue. Its just a double pain in the behind for consumers.


----------



## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

kcmorgan said:


> (...)My point is your analogy makes it sound like they broke their promise. They didn't. What people need to realize is they made no promises. If they decide the next pot for KU is five bucks, they are well within their rights to do so, cause that's what we agreed to.


They didn't break a promise. It's worse than that. They broke the contracted agreement with Select authors. The deal I signed up for was paid-per-page out of a shared pot for 90 days exclusivity. I understood the payment would be adjusted accordingly and I wouldn't know how until the 15th of each month. I understood the KENP was being tweaked and could potentially be adjusted. I know what I agreed to and I take my lumps just the same.

Now, I wander over to KBoards and I read that we are _not_ paid-per-page, that there is a way to get around it that's been discussed in various closed groups. That authors are "making bank" with this system. I still don't get it (because I'm thick that way) but sure enough, I see the books, I hear trustworthy testimony that this is happening and the authors in question are being rewarded with All-Star bonuses.

The giant leap made here is that the authors are scammers and there will be a crackdown on boxed sets and if innocent authors don't like the terms, we can go elsewhere. When the easiest and most obvious solution is to adhere to the original terms of the agreement: pay-per-page. Fix the freaking loophole ASAP.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

jrwilson said:


> I remember being devastated when I found out about the KU1 scamlets. I can't quite work myself up to that level of disappointment this time around.
> If I were Amazon, I would completely re-imagine KU. I would only make it available to authors by invitation, with some minimum level of expected quality. This wouldn't stop people from publishing whatever they want via kdp, just limiting what gets into KU. *This would - hopefully - lead to fewer but higher quality books,* and it would also make it something to be proud about. Also, if you got caught trying to game the system, you'd be out of KU, and will never be invited back.


The problem is- who's going to say "this is quality" and "this is garbage?"
IF trad publishers can't even tell the difference between what will sell and what won't, how is an Amazon hourly employee going to know the difference? How many times was JK Rowling told "no" before she was published?

The problem is that Amazon has left gaping holes for scammers (and they KNOW there are scammers) to get a pretty big foothold.
As numerous authors have said before- it's pretty easy to tell from a cover and description which books are scammers.


----------



## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Atunah said:


> We readers do care if a bunch of those gazillion "book" are nothing but scams and dreck. If we can't find anything to read, we'll cancel and let Amazon know why. I did that before. Cancel. And I told them why. $10 a month is a lot of money to add to my budget. Might not be to some, but to me it is. That's $120 a year. If its not worth it and I am better off just buying several books a month instead, that I actually own, its time to cancel.
> A service has to have quality content, not just quantity.
> 
> Its actually not a bad idea to have some curated content in KU. Even a simple time requirement before being eligible to enter KU might help. As in, must have a 6-12 month no violations type publishing history. Violate the rules, maybe a 2-3 strikes you are out. Since sometimes a violation could be a misunderstanding or such thing.
> ...


I actually agree with you, but Amazon must not agree with us. They must get tons of complaints about the scamlets, but ... well, they aren't doing anything about it. How does making the top payout of 3000 pages do ANYTHING to stop the scamming? It doesn't. So I can only draw the conclusion that Amazon feels this is an acceptable downside to KU. I took almost all of my work out of KU for a lot of reasons, but mostly b/c it limited where readers could get it and that's what matters to me.

Also, I noticed that formatting was what was impacted how much you got paid, i.e., simply by adjusting formatting I gained 100 pages, but that was STILL less than people with similar books were getting paid. Because of course, Amazon couldn't do something simple like pay per character/per word which is way fairer. No, they want to be able to adjust the price they pay per book and sayh, we're just evening things out with ANOTHER tweak that will decrease (or increase) your page count! Uhm, what? Shouldn't my books be the SAME PAGE COUNT no matter what? After all it's not like I added or deleted pages or words or anything at all...

Simply put, Amazon has created a monster and it is nibbling around the edges of the real problems for some reasons. But after seeing HM Ward's post about reviewers losing all reviews and reviewing privileges for no good reason I really don't want to be in KU when Amazon takes the hatchet to that, because the scammers will probably be the least affected.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

doolittle03 said:


> They didn't break a promise. It's worse than that. They broke the contracted agreement with Select authors. The deal I signed up for was paid-per-page out of a shared pot for 90 days exclusivity. I understood the payment would be adjusted accordingly and I wouldn't know how until the 15th of each month. I understood the KENP was being tweaked and could potentially be adjusted. I know what I agreed to and I take my lumps just the same.
> 
> Now, I wander over to KBoards and I read that we are _not_ paid-per-page, that there is a way to get around it that's been discussed in various closed groups. That authors are "making bank" with this system. I still don't get it (because I'm thick that way) but sure enough, I see the books, I hear trustworthy testimony that this is happening and the authors in question are being rewarded with All-Star bonuses.
> 
> The giant leap made here is that the authors are scammers and there will be a crackdown on boxed sets and if innocent authors don't like the terms, we can go elsewhere. When the easiest and most obvious solution is to adhere to the original terms of the agreement: pay-per-page. Fix the freaking loophole ASAP.


Exactly. If you are going to pay per page read...then pay per page read!

All these so called authors have to do is bundle bunches of books together (anything will do - cookbook in back of Romance....foreign language content in horror - who cares about the content). Then entice the reader to click thru with the big arrow at the front of the book to win a free Kindle, get bonus books etc. to get the reader to click to the back of the book and enjoy full payout. Not for them to get paid a paltry portion of 3000 KENPC - may as well go for it all - it's so easy. We are sharing the pot and bonuses with these folks.

It just takes a short amount of time to find a nice cover, add a title and throw a ton of books together. And they can churn these out again and again and again and they are!

For example on Feb. 27 one of these scammers (mentioned earlier in this thread) put out 50 titles. That's one day alone! 50 titles with thousands of KENPC each and many of the same stories used over and over!

The entire system is going to he** unless this is fixed and soon!


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

X. Aratare said:


> Also, I noticed that formatting was what was impacted how much you got paid, i.e., simply by adjusting formatting I gained 100 pages, but that was STILL less than people with similar books were getting paid. Because of course, Amazon couldn't do something simple like pay per character/per word which is way fairer. No, they want to be able to adjust the price they pay per book and sayh, we're just evening things out with ANOTHER tweak that will decrease (or increase) your page count! Uhm, what? Shouldn't my books be the SAME PAGE COUNT no matter what? After all it's not like I added or deleted pages or words or anything at all...


It would be utterly trivial to write a program that would strip out all the formatting except the paragraph breaks and then parse that into standardized pages (say 60 columns x 50 rows) with enough smarts to allow for shortened paragraphs for dialog and such. If you're creating a "standard" page, formatting should not be allowed to play a wildcard role and thus be exploitable to gain extra pages. The algorithm would need to be tweaked to handle images/illustrations, but even so we're not talking about writing anything terribly complex. This is something you could turn over to very junior programmers without a lot of hand holding, and it certainly wouldn't take eight months to write, debug, and put into production.

No, as you said, they want to be able to keep it secret so they can change it arbitrarily. "Oh, we said we'd pay you *per page*, we just didn't say what a page was, now, did we? Wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say-no-more."


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I look for the cap to lower, too, and maybe an all-out ban on box sets and omnibuses at some point. Amazon will prefer pushing the single title and want to clean up the store, and the most effective way to do that now is lower the hammer and bar everyone (even those trying to do things the right way) from doing big box sets. Then the scammers will think of something new, but Amazon is clearly going to do something. The first cap was only the beginning.


Even if the scammers were limited to 300-page books, they could still have a big impact on the pot. 



jrwilson said:


> If I were Amazon, I would completely re-imagine KU. I would only make it available to authors by invitation, with some minimum level of expected quality. This wouldn't stop people from publishing whatever they want via kdp, just limiting what gets into KU. This would - hopefully - lead to fewer but higher quality books, and it would also make it something to be proud about. Also, if you got caught trying to game the system, you'd be out of KU, and will never be invited back.


I think this idea has merit. I don't think the invitations should be based on aesthetic quality because, as dianapersaud pointed out, that's hugely subjective. But it'd be easy enough to separate KU from Select, and to make Select universally available, but to demand a probationary period before new accounts were eligible to publish to KU. The idea would be to make sure the owner of every new KDP account established a history of publishing real books -- not cobbled-together/plagiarized page mass -- before giving them access to the KU pot.

ETA: I wrote a Fb post about this issue, here. I tried to word it carefully, given the lack of absolute proof on whether this scam actually works (though the All-Star thing seems pretty damning). Feel free to share, if you think it'd help to inform your readers: https://www.facebook.com/bccamlls/posts/1020603687997239


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

So how many people here emailed Jeff?


----------



## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Even if the scammers were limited to 300-page books, they could still have a big impact on the pot.
> 
> I think this idea has merit. I don't think the invitations should be based on aesthetic quality because, as dianapersaud pointed out, that's hugely subjective. But it'd be easy enough to separate KU from Select, and to make Select universally available, but to demand a probationary period before new accounts were eligible to publish to KU. The idea would be to make sure the owner of every new KDP account established a history of publishing real books -- not cobbled-together/plagiarized page mass -- before giving them access to the KU pot.
> 
> ETA: I wrote a Fb post about this issue, here. I tried to word it carefully, given the lack of absolute proof on whether this scam actually works (though the All-Star thing seems pretty damning). Feel free to share, if you think it'd help to inform your readers: https://www.facebook.com/bccamlls/posts/1020603687997239


I still come back to the idea that this is really NOT important to Amazon. The pot is whatever they want the pot to be (see "pages" changing). So really you're asking them to do a lot of work so that AUTHORS, not them, get a larger portion of the pie (except would they or would Amazon just lower the pot?). Why would Amazon do this? In reality, KU is just one vehicle (like free shipping) to get people into Prime to buy other products where they make more of margin. What they would do if they decide to take on the scammers is likely to be something draconian that will adversely affect the "good" authors. Anytime Amazon does something its with a chainsaw NOT a scalpel. I point to reviews. Everyone was complaining about reviews being bought, fake, etc, but who really suffered when Amazon did something? Normal people who you'd love to have review your books!

I get that this cost per page is important to AUTHORS, but I don't think anyone here has really addressed what's good for AMAZON, which is the only thing that makes it move. Amazon feels that readers will report the most outrageous problems and they'll fix it. But other than Atunah claiming to have trouble finding books (which, honestly, as a reader myself has NOT been a problem) that aren't these scamlets, readers aren't really being harmed by this. So they pick up a book that's a hot mess of recipes and other stuff throw together. They delete it off their kindle with a note of disgust and GET THE NEXT BOOK. It costs readers NOTHING. The only people who care are the authors and Amazon only to the extent that they want to keep the cost of the pot down, but until that pot goes beyond Amazon's comfort zone, they're not going to do anything. And again, like I said above, what they do is UNLIKELY to make anyone happy.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2016)

Guys, keep this between us. Amazon cannot do anything, because they have been perpetrating a hoax on us writers, a pay per page hoax. This is a legal matter. We can take them to court if we want to, force them to admit they cannot count the amount of pages read in a book and win a settlement! So can the scammers! That's why Amazon cannot acknowledge what is happening and cannot stop the scammers from doing it. 

What they do sometimes is call it bad customer experience, remove a book, but that is all they can do. 

A cocaine dealer, who gets robbed, cannot go to the police. He just ads some baking powder to the coke and it's no longer his problem. That is how Amazon sees it. The KU pot is being robbed blind by scammers, but they just adjust our pay per page downward and give the money to the scammers. Amazon thinks we can't see it's a hoax and it's a legal matter.

Obviously: IMHO


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Rosalind James said:


> Just saw this. That book is actually published by Montlake, so Amazon does the formatting. Any of my books not in that series are formatted by Everything But the Book. Before that, though, I did my own, just wrote it "formatted" by using Styles in Word, and it was fine if not gorgeous. .3 indents, flush left first paragraphs, Times New Roman 12-point type for normal paragraphs with 17-point leading. That came out looking fine.


Thank you for this info, Rosalind. I'll be looking into these options.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

DGS said:


> So how many people here emailed Jeff?


Hopefully lots of us.



drno said:


> Guys, keep this between us. Amazon cannot do anything, because they have been perpetrating a hoax on us writers, a pay per page hoax. This is a legal matter. We can take them to court if we want to, force them to admit they cannot count the amount of pages read in a book and win a settlement!


I can't tell if you're joking or serious? If serious, why not talk to someone with some legal knowledge to get a better handle on the issues at stake. Sounds very fuzzy to me.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

X. Aratare said:


> In reality, KU is just one vehicle (like free shipping) to get people into Prime to buy other products where they make more of margin.


KU is a completely separate program from Prime.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

X. Aratare said:


> I still come back to the idea that this is really NOT important to Amazon. The pot is whatever they want the pot to be (see "pages" changing). So really you're asking them to do a lot of work so that AUTHORS, not them, get a larger portion of the pie (except would they or would Amazon just lower the pot?). Why would Amazon do this? In reality, KU is just one vehicle (like free shipping) to get people into Prime to buy other products where they make more of margin. What they would do if they decide to take on the scammers is likely to be something draconian that will adversely affect the "good" authors. Anytime Amazon does something its with a chainsaw NOT a scalpel. I point to reviews. Everyone was complaining about reviews being bought, fake, etc, but who really suffered when Amazon did something? Normal people who you'd love to have review your books!
> 
> I get that this cost per page is important to AUTHORS, but I don't think anyone here has really addressed what's good for AMAZON, which is the only thing that makes it move. Amazon feels that readers will report the most outrageous problems and they'll fix it. But other than Atunah claiming to have trouble finding books (which, honestly, as a reader myself has NOT been a problem) that aren't these scamlets, readers aren't really being harmed by this. So they pick up a book that's a hot mess of recipes and other stuff throw together. They delete it off their kindle with a note of disgust and GET THE NEXT BOOK. It costs readers NOTHING. The only people who care are the authors and Amazon only to the extent that they want to keep the cost of the pot down, but until that pot goes beyond Amazon's comfort zone, they're not going to do anything. And again, like I said above, what they do is UNLIKELY to make anyone happy.


You're right that the pot is flexible, so that Amazon can put as much money in there as it needs to keep the payout at .004, if it wants to. And you're right that realizing they need to put $20 million in there to keep the per-page figure reasonable is what will probably ultimately motivate them to clean up the scammers. On the other hand, if Amazon isn't aware of how many paid page-reads are scams, they may allow the payout to sink further than they otherwise would, believing the program to be more popular than it is. They've already let it sink, what? Twenty percent? Letting the payout shrink makes sense if there are tons of readers reading tons of pages, because authors will make up the loss with volume. But if most of that money is disappearing into scammers' coffers without Amazon fully being aware of it, well, authors will just make less and less, even though the pie seems to be growing.

But the larger impact is on KU's reputation. Readers will come to find the program tiresome if they download a high percentage of books that seem like crap, and authors will leave the program if it comes to be associated with piles of crap. And if they perceive themselves to be losing money to scammers -- because, hey, we just don't know what the payout would've been if the scammers weren't taking a share. Maybe it'd be the same, but maybe it wouldn't.

Author departures, shrinking readership, and high turnover in readership would make the program not work as intended. And rampant scamming makes Amazon look technologically incompetent, which can't be good for a major e-commerce company. I think Amazon cares about this sort of thing in addition to the monetary aspect.


----------



## TessOliver (Dec 2, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> Author departures, shrinking readership, and high turnover in readership would make the program not work as intended. And rampant scamming makes Amazon look technologically incompetent, which can't be good for a major e-commerce company. I think Amazon cares about this sort of thing in addition to the monetary aspect.


Well said. This exactly.


----------



## jrwilson (Apr 7, 2015)

TessOliver said:


> Well said. This exactly.


Ditto.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

And here we are at seven pages, and no one has yet mentioned the only thing authors can do to counter these sorts of shenanigans by various people, including Amazon: take control of your own audience.

Searches have become ineffective. Were they ever effective? They certainly weren't on any of the non-Amazon sites, ever. How do you get sales there? By taking control of your own audience. Screw searches. Send people to your books. Advertise, cross-promote.

Stop worrying about the latest trickery by less scrupulous people. They just end up in each other's alsobots. Sure, report them, but there will always be a next scam. If Amazon fixes searches, then it will be something else they do. I don't know what it is yet, but there will be something.


----------



## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

lilywhite said:


> KU is a completely separate program from Prime.


I'm well aware of that. What I'm saying is that they use KU like Prime, etc. to get more people to buy products from AMAZON. Whatever gets you and keeps you on the site is good. I buy tons of stuff from Amazon bc of Prime. If I have KU and I'm on the site to get a book maybe I'll get some toilet paper too. You get the point, I hope.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> And here we are at seven pages, and no one has yet mentioned the only thing authors can do to counter these sorts of shenanigans by various people, including Amazon: take control of your own audience.
> 
> Searches have become ineffective. Were they ever effective? They certainly weren't on any of the non-Amazon sites, ever. How do you get sales there? By taking control of your own audience. Screw searches. Send people to your books. Advertise, cross-promote.
> 
> Stop worrying about the latest trickery by less scrupulous people. They just end up in each other's alsobots. Sure, report them, but there will always be a next scam. If Amazon fixes searches, then it will be something else they do. I don't know what it is yet, but there will be something.


You can cross promote and advertise all you like but it does not negate the fact that if you are in KU scammers are taking a piece of your pie - and that's not nice or fair. Not only that but they are advertising at sites including Facebook so they are gaining higher ranks AND getting in the "customers who buy this buy..." so showing up in the search results big time and getting direct clicks (70 Bonus books included!) etc.

If folks signed up to KU and the deal is to be paid by page reads that means pay by page reads - not by pages skipped which is what the scammers are doing.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

KittKatt said:


> You can cross promote and advertise all you like but it does not negate the fact that if you are in KU scammers are taking a piece of your pie - and that's not nice or fair. Not only that but they are advertising at sites including Facebook so they are gaining higher ranks AND getting in the "customers who buy this buy..." so showing up in the search results big time and getting direct clicks (70 Bonus books included!) etc.
> 
> If folks signed up to KU and the deal is to be paid by page reads that means pay by page reads - not by pages skipped which is what the scammers are doing.


Well then, get out of KU. Vote with your feet.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> Well then, get out of KU. Vote with your feet.


I like KU (till this issue came up) and I like Amazon. And I'd like to see it corrected. If it's not corrected soon, I will be leaving - no question on that. 
But that has nothing to do with your comment that you can "counter shenanigans by taking control of your audience". Sure you can get more folks to buy your book
but if the system is flawed you will still be cheated out of your rightful earnings. And right now it's flawed!


----------



## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Well then, get out of KU. Vote with your feet.


That's exactly what I did. I'm waiting for my backlist to come out of KU so I can go wide again. I might release stuff in KU, but I doubt I'll leave it in there for more than three months.


----------



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

KittKatt said:


> I like KU (till this issue came up) and I like Amazon. And I'd like to see it corrected. If it's not corrected soon, I will be leaving - no question on that.
> But that has nothing to do with your comment that you can "counter shenanigans by taking control of your audience". Sure you can get more folks to buy your book
> but if the system is flawed you will still be cheated out of your rightful earnings. And right now it's flawed!


Agreed. And in truth it's been flawed/problematic from the beginning. A nice idea but due to the fact that it's so open to abuse, ultimately no longer a long-term realistic business proposition (for me personally). I'm out.


----------



## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

I just put one of my series into KU/Select in February, but having learnt of the scamming that's going on, have requested they be taken out now. I received an email back saying that it's probably not likely that they can be taken out but due to my *circumstances, they are going to see what they can do.


* I've no idea what my circumstances are apart from not selling as much as I'd like. I'm a prawn when it comes to sales.


----------



## Marysol James (Mar 1, 2016)

I must confess that I'm really taken aback at what I've read on this thread. I just joined these boards (so hi!), and normally just lurk and hang out on the Amazon KDP forum for writers. Sadly, I haven't found nearly as much helpful information on there as I have here, so I'm switching allegiances but quick 

Anyway. This thread has been very enlightening, and not at all in a good way. I'm really surprised that Amazon has created a 'pages-read' system whereby they can't actually, you know, count actual _pages_ _read_. Like, if the system doesn't count real, pages 'turned' or 'flipped', then it's a huge mistake and deeply flawed.

I've been seriously considering leaving the Select program for a few months, but refuse to do so in a snit or a fit. I'm in the process of planning a smart (I hope) way to do it, but I know the risk. I make a very good living from the KU pages-read program, but more and more, I'm wondering if I shouldn't take the chance.

Lots to think about.


----------



## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

dianapersaud said:


> I am surprised that people are clicking on obvious scam books. I just don't get it.


Your mistake is thinking that every KU subscriber is a reader.

If you put up a 13 zillion-KENP Keyword-stuffer with a free dictionary in the front, whose average payout per "full read" (aka "single click") is approaching $1000, you have made enough profit to purchase 9.99/month subscriptions for 99 underpaid click-farmers to search your title, download it, click on a single link, and move on with their lives and exponentially increased your income--you make 99,000 bucks for those 99 clicks. even after 990 bucks a month for KU memberships for your farmers, you're still sitting on damn close to 100 grand a month. All for about five minutes' worth of time. It's a LOT easier than spamming 65 million Nigerian Prince emails from bot-farms, a lot faster than running investment cons, and a lot cheaper than buying anything off the dark net. Plus, it's 100% legal, so no jail time, even if you're not in a country where commerce laws have as much force as mild suggestions.


----------



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Athena Grayson said:


> Your mistake is thinking that every KU subscriber is a reader.
> 
> If you put up a 13 zillion-KENP Keyword-stuffer with a free dictionary in the front, whose average payout per "full read" (aka "single click") is approaching $1000, you have made enough profit to purchase 9.99/month subscriptions for 99 underpaid click-farmers to search your title, download it, click on a single link, and move on with their lives and exponentially increased your income--you make 99,000 bucks for those 99 clicks. even after 990 bucks a month for KU memberships for your farmers, you're still sitting on damn close to 100 grand a month. All for about five minutes' worth of time. It's a LOT easier than spamming 65 million Nigerian Prince emails from bot-farms, a lot faster than running investment cons, and a lot cheaper than buying anything off the dark net. Plus, it's 100% legal, so no jail time, even if you're not in a country where commerce laws have as much force as mild suggestions.


Oh man this is seriously depressing....


----------



## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Amazon is aware of the situation and that's why they came out with the 3,000 KENPC cap. They will take books down doing this with the link scam if you report them. The number of scammers doing it isn't small.


So, we are supposed to write and check out scammers for 0.004 page reads. Sorry, but what are the Amazon employees doing? I thought they get paid to work for them. I know I don't.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Marysol James said:


> I must confess that I'm really taken aback at what I've read on this thread. I just joined these boards (so hi!), and normally just lurk and hang out on the Amazon KDP forum for writers. Sadly, I haven't found nearly as much helpful information on there as I have here, so I'm switching allegiances but quick
> 
> Anyway. This thread has been very enlightening, and not at all in a good way. I'm really surprised that Amazon has created a 'pages-read' system whereby they can't actually, you know, count actual _pages_ _read_. Like, if the system doesn't count real, pages 'turned' or 'flipped', then it's a huge mistake and deeply flawed.
> 
> ...


Hi, Marysol, welcome to kboards!


----------



## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Athena Grayson said:


> If you put up a 13 zillion-KENP Keyword-stuffer with a free dictionary in the front, whose average payout per "full read" (aka "single click") is approaching $1000


Just to clarify the zillions and other figures for this to work: $1,000 per full KU 2 read divided by $0.0045 payout per "page" would require a book with a KENPC of 222,222 "pages."

At a hypothetical 190 words per KU 2 "page," that's a word count over 42 million.

Is the new KENPC limit of 3,000 going to make a difference? I'm guessing it will. We'll know a lot more when reports are released on or around March 15.


----------



## Marysol James (Mar 1, 2016)

Thank you, Ken!


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

The whole thing that is the most upsetting to me is that Amazon said they'd set up a way to strip formatting, set a start point (at Chapter One), and make everyone's books equal.

They didn't.

We've all seen the evidence that you can set your own start point (or how else do the links to the back of the book even show up, unless all readers click back to the cover and page through the front matter?), get pages read just by skimming through the book, and I don't know what else.

So, instead of actually fixing the breaks in the system, all they've done is limit KENPC pages to 3K, which doesn't really do anything, because instead of one big book the scammers just break it up into three or four, and they've "adjusted" how pages are calculated. Yet, they do nothing to put a filter on the system to catch the crazy bundles of crap, or to stop the click to the back of the book scams, or to stop people from offering raffle or lottery type inducements to get people to willingly help them scam Amazon.

And then they pay these people a bonus! For cheating. And we wonder why people do it.

I'm in KU only because I can't afford not to be. Until I get a big enough catalog to make a decent push at other retailers, I settle for what money I do manage to wrest from the greedy guts and Amazon.

At least these folks are putting out full-length works, and not short stories.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

I just saw ONE of these scam books "under review". That is one book out of the "author's" many. They seem to be approaching it a book at a time instead of reviewing the publisher's whole account.

If these scam authors continue to push out 50+ books in a day (as some have done) it will be a disaster for those in KU.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

KittKatt said:


> I just saw ONE of these scam books "under review". That is one book out of the "author's" many. They seem to be approaching it a book at a time instead of reviewing the publisher's whole account.
> 
> If these scam authors continue to push out 50+ books in a day (as some have done) it will be a disaster for those in KU.


The do the exact same thing with the plagiarist accounts. And as often as not let them keep right on going, even if they end up blocking multiple books in the account.


----------



## Guest (Mar 3, 2016)

My feeling is that this plagiarism only truly affects authors who aren't happy with what KU is paying out per page. I mean, whatever's in the pot is an arbitrary amount that is based on what Amazon thinks authors will accept. If they think that an author will accept .4 cents per page or .35 cents or whatever, then if they get rid of the scammers, that extra money is just what they don't have to put into the pot this round. 

What I don't get is how authors would be cool with .4 cents per page, then there are some scammers, okay now we're not cool with it. 

I mean the authors who are doing well in KU are still doing well right? As long as KU remains the best option for them, why would they even concern themselves with this peripheral stuff?


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> That's exactly what I did. I'm waiting for my backlist to come out of KU so I can go wide again. I might release stuff in KU, but I doubt I'll leave it in there for more than three months.


Me too, definitely


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

ShaneJeffery said:


> My feeling is that this plagiarism only truly affects authors who aren't happy with what KU is paying out per page. I mean, whatever's in the pot is an arbitrary amount that is based on what Amazon thinks authors will accept. If they think that an author will accept .4 cents per page or .35 cents or whatever, then if they get rid of the scammers, that extra money is just what they don't have to put into the pot this round.
> 
> What I don't get is how authors would be cool with .4 cents per page, then there are some scammers, okay now we're not cool with it.
> 
> I mean the authors who are doing well in KU are still doing well right? As long as KU remains the best option for them, why would they even concern themselves with this peripheral stuff?


I am not following you. First off it is not plagiarism. It is stuffing books with foreign language texts, unrelated content such as cookbooks, recycling the same stories, etc. Then it's putting a link in the front to get the click to the end..."Click here and win an Amazon gift card." The pay outs per page is naturally going to be less if it is spread out over more publishers. And to make matters worse someone with x amount of genuine page reads will not get their KU Bonus because someone with fake page reads is getting it.

I am doing well with KU but every report I see my income sliding as the pay out amount goes down because it is being spread over a wider number of books.


----------



## Guest (Mar 3, 2016)

KittKatt said:


> I am not following you. First off it is not plagiarism. It is stuffing books with foreign language texts, unrelated content such as cookbooks, recycling the same stories, etc. Then it's putting a link in the front to get the click to the end..."Click here and win an Amazon gift card." The pay outs per page is naturally going to be less if it is spread out over more publishers. And to make matters worse someone with x amount of genuine page reads will not get their KU Bonus because someone with fake page reads is getting it.
> 
> I am doing well with KU but every report I see my income sliding as the pay out amount goes down because it is being spread over a wider number of books.


Amazon determine what's in the pot. It's a figure they pull out of a hat for all we know. My contention is that Amazon are paying the least amount of money per page that the think currently authors will accept, and that's how they get their number. IE if Amazon got rid of the scammers (not plagiarists, sorry) then the money you earn won't change, only Amazon won't have to top up the pot as much so you can get the minuscule .4 cent per page payout.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

Well, I just read this whole thread. It's depressing, and count me along the writers who are angry at not only the scammers, but Amazon, for allowing it to continue.

Looking to see how these scams worked, I just searched for "Dorothy Thompson" on Amazon and found the scammy books. Between every "book" in the first collection there's a "click to the TOC" link. And here's something else that's funny. It's NOT an imprint of "Random House." It's an imprint of "*Joyce *Random House." So basically, the book is also giving the false impression it was published through a major publishing imprint.

Yes, i'm going to keep on writing and focus on my own stuff. But I think that anger at the scamming is a good thing, because anything that draws attention to the cheaters is better than ignoring it and hoping it goes away. They're not stealing from Amazon. They're stealing from other authors.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Perhaps we should create a Twitter #AmazonKENPscammersmustfall. Seems to work for others


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Perhaps we should create a Twitter #AmazonKENPscammersmustfall. Seems to work for others


Great idea! I'd suggest a shorter hashtag though, to save characters, and one directed at Amazon's customers, not authors. Like "#KUReaderRipoffs" or something like that. (I think people could come up with a lot better idea. That was just something to get the ball rolling.) Of course, one danger is that this might give these books added publicity. Ugh.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> Don't despair! ... One of those ridiculous books at over 4000MB download with that scammy "click here for a super important message" links...
> 
> Reporting must work. While it's a terrible waste of time for us since Amazon has actual employees who are supposed to be paid to take care of stuff, clearly reporting will actually at least make them review. If that happens enough, then they'll maybe...just maybe...do something about it.


Yikes, 4000MB download. I wonder how many pages that was.

Probably a stupid question, but how do you report a book? I looked at the book's page on Amazon, but didn't see a clear mechanism for reporting scammers.


----------



## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

ShaneJeffery said:


> My feeling is that this plagiarism only truly affects authors who aren't happy with what KU is paying out per page. I mean, whatever's in the pot is an arbitrary amount that is based on what Amazon thinks authors will accept. If they think that an author will accept .4 cents per page or .35 cents or whatever, then if they get rid of the scammers, that extra money is just what they don't have to put into the pot this round.
> 
> What I don't get is how authors would be cool with .4 cents per page, then there are some scammers, okay now we're not cool with it.
> 
> I mean the authors who are doing well in KU are still doing well right? As long as KU remains the best option for them, why would they even concern themselves with this peripheral stuff?


The problem is that KU is not some kind of firewalled, self-contained little ecosystem that operates independently from the rest of the Amazon store. What happens in there impacts authors whether they participate or not, and it has an outsized effect because every KU borrow - whether any pages are read or not - is treated as somewhere between 2 and 3 times as much as a purchase by the Amazon algorithm for determining rankings. This is why it's not enough to just handwave it away and say, "If you don't like it, don't put your books in KU."

Every time some scammer posts a book and sets her click farmers to work on it, she's knocking legitimate books down in the rankings and making them more difficult to find. If you're not in Select, you're already fighting an uphill battle against the people with their books enrolled because of the preferential treatment Amazon is giving borrows. The scammers are adding insult to injury.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> Scroll down past everything almost everything and there will be a blue Feedback box. Report quality issues there and simply say it is a scam book with links that offer money to trigger a full KU read of max payout without actually reading. Or whatever. I don't copy and paste my text or anything.


Thanks for the info! I see it now. I just reported one that was written half in English, half in some other language. It's actually pretty surprising that Amazon doesn't catch these.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MmmmmPie said:


> Thanks for the info! I see it now. I just reported one that was written half in English, half in some other language. It's actually pretty surprising that Amazon doesn't catch these.


I get the sense that, with the exception of poring over romance covers to find hand bras, no one is really minding the store. It's all automated.


----------



## Row (Oct 21, 2014)

I am sort of shocked to see so many people worrying so much about what other people are doing and tattling on others. I prefer to worry about my own business and making my books better, more visible etc. Adding bonus content to books, in my opinion, isn't scamming the system at all. People gotta chill out a little. Sorry. But thats my two bits. Improve your own business and worry less about others. This is guaranteed success for you.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Row said:


> Adding bonus content to books, in my opinion, isn't scamming the system at all.


You're conflating two things. Bonus content is great. Five translations of the books, 50 extra books in a different category, and two dictionaries? THAT. IS. A. SCAM.

Gonna call it what it is, and too bad if that bothers folks.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

Row said:


> I am sort of shocked to see so many people worrying so much about what other people are doing and tattling on others. I prefer to worry about my own business and making my books better, more visible etc. Adding bonus content to books, in my opinion, isn't scamming the system at all. People gotta chill out a little. Sorry. But thats my two bits. Improve your own business and worry less about others. This is guaranteed success for you.


Adding 50 bonus books to your novel might not be scamming, but it is tacky.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

libwin said:


> Adding 50 bonus books to your novel might not be scamming, but it is tacky.


I see your point if it's purely bonus material, which the reader can choose to read or not. But it IS scamming if there's a link in the front of the book that basically says, "Click here to give me 3,000 page reads instantly. No actual reading required. Wheeee! Free money for the 'author'!"

In response to the "tattling" comment, is it "tattling" to call 911 when your car is stolen? Because we're talking serious money here. Some of these scammers have earned $40.000 or more in one month. That money is coming directly out of the pockets of legitimate authors who aren't using scams and tricks to rack up bogus page-reads.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

MmmmmPie said:


> I see your point if it's purely bonus material, which the reader can choose to read or not. But it IS scamming if there's a link in the front of the book that basically says, "Click here to give me 3,000 page reads instantly. No actual reading required. Wheeee! Free money for the 'author'!"
> 
> In response to the "tattling" comment, is it "tattling" to call 911 when your car is stolen? Because we're talking serious money here. Some of these scammers have earned $40.000 or more in one month. That money is coming directly out of the pockets of legitimate authors who aren't using scams and tricks to rack up bogus page-reads.


I agree with you. So many of these "books" have links on the first page to sign up for the mailing list at the end of the book, or click here to view bonus books.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

libwin said:


> I agree with you. So many of these "books" have links on the first page to sign up for the mailing list at the end of the book, or click here to view bonus books.


Yes, and even worse. One of these books says something like, "Click here for a chance to win a Brand New Kindle Fire HDX!"

So basically, it's almost like a lottery scam. The reader clicks, Amazon pays, and other authors lose out, because the pot is diminished through scamming.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Some of these, including the one with the gazillion scam books that was linked to up thread are not only faking the publisher name to sound like a bit publisher. They are faking reviews from Romantic Times Magazine and others. Try reading one of these things and its absolutely horrific utter garbage. 

And again, cluttering the romance category


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

I did a quick search today and easily came up with a number of "authors" doing this. It is rampant and they are putting out 50+ books a day.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

KittKatt said:


> I did a quick search today and easily came up with a number of "authors" doing this. It is rampant and they are putting out 50+ books a day.


The same recycled stories in every book. A new trend is starting where readers are expecting to get 50 stories for $0.99. I compared the rankings on some of the books from new authors, and the new "authors" giving away bonus books have lower rankings. So many of them are posting links to the end of the book on the first page of the book.


----------



## bbstar (Jun 4, 2015)

Ok this is my thoughts on this thread.

I guess I'm one of those "scammers" or simply smart business person that's been able to consistently make 100k per month for the last 3 months. Plus I always get the KENP all star bonus from US, UK, Europe and Canada so that's another 35k in bonus prizes. So yeh pretty much making 130k on average for the last 3 months. 

So total I made about 390,000$ in the last 3 months. Now with the new KENP 2.0, I'll probably only make 15k per month which sucks balls. Before I was making 125$ per click, now I only makes 15$ per click. Life is hard now. I can't support my family with only 15k in profit per month. Darn you kindle!

To be honest I'm really angry that people from abroad like Asia are using internal linking and some are even able to make 20-30k per month. That makes me angry. I wish Amazon could just ban all foreigners making money with dave's 10x method. Only Canadians should be making 6 figures per month on kindle.

You people could either could either complain about business people making 5, 6 figures per month while you make next to nothing as an author or implement these strategies and make money


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

bbstar said:


> So total I made about 390,000$ in the last 3 months. Now with the new KENP 2.0, I'll probably only make 15k per month which sucks balls. Before I was making 125$ per click, now I only makes 15$ per click. Life is hard now. I can't support my family with only 15k in profit per month. Darn you kindle!


Oh, you poor, poor thing. How _will_ you survive?


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Some of us would rather be known for writing good stories than for applying so-called 'smart business tactics'.

What a strange thought!


----------



## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

bbstar said:


> Ok this is my thoughts on this thread.
> 
> I guess I'm one of those "scammers" or simply smart business person that's been able to consistently make 100k per month for the last 3 months. Plus I always get the KENP all star bonus from US, UK, Europe and Canada so that's another 35k in bonus prizes. So yeh pretty much making 130k on average for the last 3 months.
> 
> ...


Seriously? I hope this isn't out of line but how could you come on here with so many hard working authors and say such a thing? This has to be a joke!


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

bbstar said:


> Ok this is my thoughts on this thread.
> 
> I guess I'm one of those "scammers" or simply smart business person that's been able to consistently make 100k per month for the last 3 months. Plus I always get the KENP all star bonus from US, UK, Europe and Canada so that's another 35k in bonus prizes. So yeh pretty much making 130k on average for the last 3 months.
> 
> ...


I just glanced through your old posts. Just a glance, not a full read. But, what I saw was you posting that you made $4,000 in November. Then in January, which you said was your best month, you made $40,000. Now you make $100,000 a month? Off of books you outsourced?

Something ain't right in this here milk.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I just glanced through your old posts. Just a glance, not a full read. But, what I saw was you posting that you made $4,000 in November. Then in January, which you said was your best month, you made $40,000. Now you make $100,000 a month? Off of books you outsourced?
> 
> Something ain't right in this here milk.


That's what I want to know. How the heck was he able to outsource that many books and make that much in a few months.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Vintage Mari said:


> Seriously? I hope this isn't out of line but how could you come on here with so many hard working authors and say such a thing? This has to be a joke!


Not serious. BBStar either has trouble with math or trouble remembering what she previously reported.


----------



## Guest (Mar 9, 2016)

Amazon may or may not be cracking down on this scam...

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,232158.0.html

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,232086.0.html

That Amazon cannot see how many pages are read and can only see where a reader stopped reading is pretty clear.

That the scam is seriously affecting KU and the payout per page for all writers is also clear from this:

MONTH KENPC GROWTH FROM PREV MONTH
October 2015	5%
November 2015	3%
December 2015 10%
January 2016	24%

Amazon had the option to either add 24 percent more money in the KU pot or they could lower our payout by 24 percent. Remember that we have already gone from 0.47 cent per page to 0.41 cent per page.

The KENP pages read rate was $0.00411 per page for January. That's a drop of 11% from the December payout.

In January 2016 the KDP Select Global Fund reached $15 million. That's a rise of 11% over December's Global Fund.

With a bit of fuzzy math you can easily calculate that Amazon ate half of the growth, that is 11 percent and took the other half of the growth, that is 11 percent from us. And the scammers got a pay increase of 22 percent.


----------



## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

I hope Amazon will develop new technology to resolve this very soon. It has to be within their capabilities to developing a system to make sure read counts are based on "reading" per page, not just which page is stopped at.

I am going to try to have faith.


----------



## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

Vintage Mari said:


> Seriously? I hope this isn't out of line but how could you come on here with so many hard working authors and say such a thing? This has to be a joke!


I'm gald you guys are calling him out. I couldn't believe it when I first saw that post. If what this person is doing is true, then the words I have about it are not suitable for public posting. And then to gloat about it and to call other authors stupid for "not maximizing their income"....ok, I'll stop talking now less I say something that upsets the Mods.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I get the sense that, with the exception of poring over romance covers to find hand bras, no one is really minding the store. It's all automated.


That's the impression they give out. So long as there's no naughty bits on a cover, all is right with the world.



Row said:


> I am sort of shocked to see so many people worrying so much about what other people are doing and tattling on others. I prefer to worry about my own business and making my books better, more visible etc. Adding bonus content to books, in my opinion, isn't scamming the system at all. People gotta chill out a little. Sorry. But thats my two bits. Improve your own business and worry less about others. This is guaranteed success for you.


You need to educate yourself on the topic before you post. That's my two bits.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

C. Rysalis said:


> Some of us would rather be known for writing good stories than for applying so-called 'smart business tactics'.
> What a strange thought!


I know, mind blowing isn't it?

Thankfully a good story today will still be a good story ten years from now. Crap, well, it'll just continue to stink.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

Maybe it is in Amazon interest to hire some people to look over the books of the top 1000 KU "pay out" authors and so forth.

If there is a scammer among them (warning signs:  lot of books, books are not readable, many pages, and have links to implore readers to click), don't pay the scammers the money and ban their account.  

Make a list of legit authors and next month when you go over the list again, skip these legit authors since they are in the clear.  This will save a lot of time since you don't have to recheck every month on legit authors.  


Basically, Follow the Money Trail.  Start with those with a lot of KU payout money and work your way backward.  

Legit Authors:  on the clear list, no need to check next month
Scammer:  Don't pay and ban 

Scammers will stop when they know Amazon is checking for scam books by following the money trail.  



hypothetical example:  

This month:  check the top 1000 KU authors by payout and caught 10 scammers among them.  Clear 990 authors and put them on a clear list.  Ban 10 scam authors

Next month:  check the top 2000 KU authors by payout.  The 990 "clear" authors, Amazon don't need to check.  So Amazon only need to check 1020 authors etc.....


This is just a temporary solution.  Amazon need to measure KU page read by actual page read.  A time duration might also be needed to prevent "page turn" scam.  AKA scammer hire someone to turn 500 pages in 5 minutes to make it look like a 500 pages read.  Without a time duration measurement, scammers will turn to this trick next.


----------



## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

VEVO said:


> Maybe it is in Amazon interest to hire some people to look over the books of the top 1000 KU "pay out" authors and so forth.
> 
> If there is a scammer among them (warning signs: lot of books, books are not readable, many pages, and have links to implore readers to click), don't pay the scammers the money and ban their account.
> 
> ...


Vevo, you're right. Surely it would be worthwhile at least to check out all the people getting all-star bonuses.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

Mystery Maven said:


> Vevo, you're right. Surely it would be worthwhile at least to check out all the people getting all-star bonuses.


Maybe Amazon is doing this since it's in Amazon interest to get the money back from the scammers.

Follow the money trail and it will lead Amazon to the top earning scammers.

Amazon also have sales data and KU read data. Check for authors who have high KU earnings but very low ebook SALES earnings.

Legit author: ebook sales about half of total earnings, KU is about half of total earnings
Scam author: ebook sales = 0-2% of total earnings, KU = 98-100% of total earnings

Easy way to catch the scammers since they are relying on scamming KU to earn money. Very high ratio of KU to sales = warning flag. Then go and check the books of these "suspicious" authors.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

VEVO said:


> Maybe Amazon is doing this since it's in Amazon interest to get the money back from the scammers.
> 
> Follow the money trail and it will lead Amazon to the top earning scammers.
> 
> ...





VEVO said:


> Maybe it is in Amazon interest to hire some people to look over the books of the top 1000 KU "pay out" authors and so forth.
> 
> If there is a scammer among them (warning signs: lot of books, books are not readable, many pages, and have links to implore readers to click), don't pay the scammers the money and ban their account.
> 
> ...


You are both onto something. As uncomfortable as it may seem, maybe we authors should do something about the scammers.

As I understand it from reading threads here and other articles on the internet, Amazon's purge of scammers from the German store was due to a group of authors getting together to report scammers. The same can happen in the US and UK and CA stores.

If this were to happen, extraordinary measures would be necessary to avoid a witch hunt or people getting carried away with personal agendas. Very high standards should be set for reporting. Maybe a website could be set up where authors could sign up.

Just some ideas ...

The bottom line is that scammers and gamers are damaging the Amazon book market and ethical authors are suffering as a result. Maybe it's not the best strategy for authors to wait for amazon to identify all the scammers. Maybe authors should point out where Amazon should direct its efforts.


----------



## Row (Oct 21, 2014)

It is a real shame that 'real authors' are channeling their energy towards outing 'scammers' when they could be working on improving their books and their own system. A witch hunt seems kind of counter productive to me.  Start a website for this? Who has time for that? You would be way more successful if you worked on ways of improving your own 'game'.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Row said:


> It is a real shame that 'real authors' are channeling their energy towards outing 'scammers' when they could be working on improving their books and their own system. A witch hunt seems kind of counter productive to me. Start a website for this? Who has time for that? You would be way more successful if you worked on ways of improving your own 'game'.


Who's to say we aren't?

However, I also don't care to stick my head in the sand and ignore issues that can - and have - come back to haunt the rest of the industry. The word "Indie" is a dirty one to many because of the actions of some bad apples. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.


----------



## booklover888 (May 20, 2012)

libwin said:


> Adding 50 bonus books to your novel might not be scamming, but it is tacky.


I checked out one of those. It was atrocious. I just reported it, and left a one star review. A "book" that claims to be "clean romance" but is a very short story, followed by dozens of other short stories, by other authors (or pen names) including some that are erotic sex stories, seems like a KU scam to me.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Tulonsae said:


> I'm having a bit of trouble believing that you really follow the general strategy of concentrating on your own work and not bothering with what other people do.
> 
> Because... if you did follow that strategy, why would you be reading this thread or 'channeling your energy' to post about what other authors are doing?


That was a classic distraction strategy and it worked. That post drew two responses.

The issue is that scammers are damaging the Amazon market. Because of the behavior of scammers, Amazon is going after ALL authors, especially Indies.

If we as authors want amazon to focus on the scammers, then we can spend a little bit of time identifying the bogus works and pointing them out via Amazon's reporting form. We might even want to pool our efforts to do so.

Indie authors are excellent multitaskers. If, in our market research, we discover works that use scammer tactics, we can easily take note of them without taking away from our work.


----------



## Ebook Itch (Mar 3, 2015)

Why page read value fell to $0.0041...










http://www.unleashthewealthwithin.net/kindle-publishing/



Some of us actually work for a living. You know, publishing books readers want to read.



What big changes are up at Amazon next in your opinion? More big July changes?

ETA: Here's a video of him wondering why he's having problems at CreateSpace...






Is this guy for real






He has two full notebooks of notes, which is why he saw sudden success!

Right...


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Row said:


> It is a real shame that 'real authors' are channeling their energy towards outing 'scammers' when they could be working on improving their books and their own system. A witch hunt seems kind of counter productive to me. Start a website for this? Who has time for that? You would be way more successful if you worked on ways of improving your own 'game'.


Sounds to me like someone didn't like having their books reported.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Goodness re that guy and his videos. I suppose I comfort myself with the idea that people like that are stuck living with themselves.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Ebook Itch said:


> Why page read value fell to $0.0041...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This guy is the textbook definition of "opportunist."


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Textbook definition of "opportunist."


I'd like to hear that guy try to SAY "opportunist."

*rim shot*


----------



## Ebook Itch (Mar 3, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> Goodness re that guy and his videos. I suppose I comfort myself with the idea that people like that are stuck living with themselves.


Right? How many legitimate authors were screwed out of money by him and others?

We do wonder if Amazon let him keep his ill-gotten gains.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Ebook Itch said:


> Right? How many legitimate authors were screwed out of money by him and others?
> 
> We do wonder if Amazon let him keep his ill-gotten gains.


Maybe Amazon should put new accounts on a six-month payment lag until they get this sorted out.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)




----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

When I saw that 1.3mil number on borrows, that sucked.


Good lesson here on the light and the dark paths. We can see where he's heading- the scam, then leading to another scam of selling his 'guides'. Then it'll be something else. I am in the camp of the end he'll arrive to won't justify the means.


from his own mouth:

Louie The Seller2 weeks ago
I always knew you were a trouble maker!!!...lol

Dave Koziel 
Haha always have been!


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Amazon didn't take action on erotica until there were several high-level articles were published trashing the erotica market. I think it may take more public exposure of these scammers before an actual fix is implemented.


----------



## bbstar (Jun 4, 2015)

are you serious? you're complaining about the fact that dave koziel has 1 million pages read per day. wow you should be see my pages read for the month of december


----------



## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

bbstar said:


> are you serious? you're complaining about the fact that dave koziel has 1 million pages read per day. wow you should be see my pages read for the month of december


No, people are complaining about the fact that Koziel is scamming the KU program.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

i write too said:


> Doesn't make any sense why you'd unpublish all your books instead of keeping them up as an additional income stream.


Makes perfect sense if Amazon told you to fix them or they'd pull them down (they don't ALWAYS just yank your book; sometimes you get a warning). What I see is ol' Dave got a warning that he had to shape up or face a smackdown so he's "voluntarily" pulling all his books because he doesn't ... uh ... have time to ... uh ... collect a passive income! That's it, guys! Spending all that Direct Deposit money from Amazon is so time-consuming! He'd much rather spend the $47 from all the chumps who see his (now flat) sales graph and ***** their jeans over the thought of a million page reads a day.

Too bad that particular method he's gonna sell them won't work for long.

But don't worry! Mushmouth Dave will be back on YouTube with another slushily-enunciated scam soon! I guar-on-tee!


----------



## kerris (Mar 10, 2016)

One of the community guys from Germany that helped taking down the scammers here.

My opinion on the topic is this. Amazon will stop this scam eventually, but a giant moves slowly. So this will take most likely until summer.

You can fix the problem right now yourself though by doing the following:

1. Login into your Amazon Account and click on a scammer's ebook. Because of the page-hack-scam you might as well go through the Kindle All Stars lists and see what stands out. Most scammers earned All Star boni on a global scale in multiple markets. It's a good way to identify them. The look-inside of the book is the scond hint, which is quite obvious as well: endless blank pages or a quiz or a hyperlink to read on or a chance to win something after one clicks on a link. People know the deal by now.

2. Then scroll down and click on "Report Quality problems". Fill out the form with your short complaint and press "send".
This is an automated script that will take the book down immediately after enough people reported it. On the German Amazon store less than ten reports from real accounts do the trick.
The book is then not available anymore and prevented from gaining further pages read.

3. Write down the ASIN, the file size and the page length of the book. If there is a CreateSpace version, write the CS page length down as well.

4. Send an email to customer support with those data points in the title and add "KU pages read fraud" at the end. Explain in the body that it is a very disappointing and poor reading experience that makes you cancel your KU subscription. The pages don't add up and literally tricked you into downloading the book.

5. Log into the customer support Live Chat and repeat your complaint. By doing so it gets leveled up and someone with more authority will look into it.

6. The scammers need to replace the files in their dashboards in order for them to go live again. If they risk uploading a page scam file again, you call customer support and complain there. Say that every single book of that author is fraud and resulted in you never wanting to buy something from Amazon ever again.

7. Make a blogpost about this or share this thread. Use #AmazonKindleScam

8. Organize in this thread and report back.


This grassroots mass approach works. Hundreds of books got deleted from the German store this way, many accounts banned and money frozen. The All Star boni will get re-distributed. Amazon is fully aware of this scam, but they can't fix it by hand. Until the review scripts of KDP and KENPC get updated, scammers will keep taking your money with a single click-bait and eroding the pay out per page further.

Don't stand at the sidelines thinking it's better to focus on yourself. The money pot will stay limited. The money the scammers trick out of it, is money you don't get. Straight up!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

kerris said:


> One of the community guys from Germany that helped taking down the scammers here.
> 
> My opinion on the topic is this. Amazon will stop this scam eventually, but a giant moves slowly. So this will take most likely until summer.
> 
> ...


And once again I must rue the lack of a "like" button on these forums.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Personally, I think Amazon owe us an explanation, upfront and immediately. With what author here is their behavior acceptable? If they are paying not for actual pages read, but by how far a reader has scrolled through an ebook, then we in KU have been seriously misled. Right now, as one poster pointed out, they probably won't do anything until it becomes a big enough news story. And that is frankly unacceptable. Every day they allow this to continue is not only cheating authors out of fair earnings from the KU system, but blackening the reading experience for many and tarnishing the reputation of self published ebooks all over.

Right now, Amazon are hiding in corporate shadows instead of showing their customers and suppliers that the situation has been recognized and being dealt with on a deadline. And that is a disgrace.


----------



## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Personally, I think Amazon owe us an explanation, upfront and immediately. With what author here is their behavior acceptable? If they are paying not for actual pages read, but by how far a reader has scrolled through an ebook, then we in KU have been seriously misled. Right now, as one poster pointed out, they probably won't do anything until it becomes a big enough news story. And that is frankly unacceptable. Every day they allow this to continue is not only cheating authors out of fair earnings from the KU system, but blackening the reading experience for many and tarnishing the reputation of self published ebooks all over.
> 
> Right now, Amazon are hiding in corporate shadows instead of showing their customers and suppliers that the situation has been recognized and being dealt with on a deadline. And that is a disgrace.


This. This. This.

While I totally appreciate the authors who have taken the time to clean up the German store, it's ridiculous that we have to do this (in addition to running our own businesses) for 0.0041 a page. When I enrolled my books in Select in June, I accepted the terms. When KU KENP was introduced in July, I read about it and understood I would be paid _per page read_. The stated agreement was basically "We will pay you per page read. If the customer jumps ahead to Chapter Four, you will be paid for that page, not the pages skipped." 
Got it. 
The scammers and unscrupulous will always be with us. I really, really trusted Amazon to have the technical know-how not to leave the safe open, allowing the stupidest of criminals to drive up and empty it. And then hand them an All Star Bonus for being such a "readable" author! Are they drinking their dinner? What the h*ll is going on?


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

bbstar said:


> are you serious? you're complaining about the fact that dave koziel has 1 million pages read per day. wow you should be see my pages read for the month of december


What are you waiting for, show us!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

DGS said:


> What are you waiting for, show us!


One can practically hear the desperate cry of "Look at meeeeeee!!!" in their post.


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

I have to say this maddening, but what's even funnier is all these authors saying, "I'm okay with the pay cut decrease as long as I'm making x each month," all while these scammers are getting away with murder and taking money out of everyone's pocket.

I knew when the pay rate started dropping by a load that something wasn't right, but to find out a big part of the reason was because of people scamming the system is unacceptable. There are tons of videos on youtube of people proudly stating how much money they make, most have multiple accounts and just spam duplicate content all day and telling others how to do it.

This has got to STOP. 

I bust my ass to write my books and I don't like working harder, investing more, to make the same amount OR LESS each month that goes by. And I can't see how ANYONE who works hard to make the best product that they can possibly make, could be okay with this.(Surprisingly enough, though, they are) There are some on this board who refuse to hold Amazon accountable for this disaster and instead blame the scammers. They also have a cavalier attitude about the whole thing "Mind your own and worry about yourself" How can you do that when what the scammers are doing directly effects how much you are making for your hard work while they do virtually no work and get rewarded? Not only that, what they are doing results in a poor reader experience for EVERYONE, which in turns make people not trust KU period. That directly affects everyone, yet people still make excuses. To me, that attitude is part of the problem and not a solution. Shame on them.

And I have to say, these people who are popping up in the thread with first-time posts defending the broken system are most-likely people who are benefitting from said broken system.

Everyone should be banding together right now to make Amazon address this issue. Not later, not in a few weeks, not in a few months, but NOW. Everyone needs to just spam Jeff Bezo's email until something is done about this mess.


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I think we have to take action like the authors in the German store. I also think we have to tweak our message to say: we are taking a unified mass action because you have failed to do so.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

And I hope you all leave so Pupsy can rule the universe!


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

There will always be more authors willing to fill the Zon ranks for 0.0025 cents per page read. They don't need any of us.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Maybe my next picture book will make me 10 cents. I can retire then! The whole subscription model stinks. Sales are much better. For children's authors it has been particularly hard. And I will say it again, a picture book takes as much effort as a novel. Writing for audience, creating compelling characters, and the art work. Yet the reward is pitiful.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

kerris said:


> This grassroots mass approach works. Hundreds of books got deleted from the German store this way, many accounts banned and money frozen. The All Star boni will get re-distributed. Amazon is fully aware of this scam, but they can't fix it by hand. Until the review scripts of KDP and KENPC get updated, scammers will keep taking your money with a single click-bait and eroding the pay out per page further.
> 
> Don't stand at the sidelines thinking it's better to focus on yourself. The money pot will stay limited. The money the scammers trick out of it, is money you don't get. Straight up!


The very fact we have to compete for a limited pool of funds - instead of simply being paid for each book we sell - is itself a scam. The entire KU system (which isn't going anywhere) is broken. So a broken system will attract dishonesty. Selling things should be a simple equation. But it's too late now. Indies sold themselves up the river to Amazon.

And now indie is much less indie. And KU2 turned out to be just as easy to scam as KU1 was. Yes some people are doing great in KU2. But can you imagine how those same writers would be doing, if they were just paid for each sale?

I pulled all my stuff down months ago. I have nothing live on Amazon. But I'm relaunching - and I'm NOT using KU at all. I want no part of it. I'm doing straight sales. No smoke, mirrors, and deception. Simple sales - where I know exactly how much I'm getting. It will be slower, but it can be done.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Urban Mogul said:


> The very fact we have to compete for a limited pool of funds - instead of simply being paid for each book we sell - is itself a scam. The entire KU system (which isn't going anywhere) is broken. So a broken system will attract dishonesty. Selling things should be a simple equation. But it's too late now. Indies sold themselves up the river to Amazon.
> 
> And now indie is much less indie. And KU2 turned out to be just as easy to scam as KU1 was. Yes some people are doing great in KU2. But can you imagine how those same writers would be doing, if they were just paid for each sale?
> 
> ...


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

Dorothy Thompson is getting the Amazon hammer! 60 books gone. A good deal of remaining 30 have this message:

*Item Under Review
This book is currently unavailable because there are significant quality issues with the source file supplied by the publisher.

The publisher has been notified and we will make the book available as soon as we receive a corrected file. As always, we value customer feedback.*

Wonder if Dave K. is gonna make a Youtube video about this! He almost survived the two month waiting period to get the money transferred to his bank account. 2 weeks short.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

M M said:


> The thing is, this doesn't impact just KU authors. It impacts every single Amazon author, KU or not, because everyone's rankings are being pushed down by Amazon's algorithm. While I hope they are pulling out all the stops to fix things, they don't seem to be. Surely a technology company like Amazon can quickly ID the books with a few ad-hoc queries. Maybe they don't want to.


As a reader I say this all the time. It affects all of you, even if you are not in KU. Because of this garbage cluttering up the genres, I don't even bother browsing anymore. It takes eyeballs away from all of your books when readers don't bother anymore to look. This is especially true right now in anything romance related.

I am done with browsing. I have resorted to read Montlake titles in KU and those selected that are recommended by other readers only. I will not browse anymore for KU reads. I also am not browsing for non KU reads anymore. So instead of casual browsing, which always brought me some interesting new authors, I read what I already own, get from the library and those again selected by other readers by recommendations.

So if your books are not getting recommended by the readers I know, I'll never see them. I used to.


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Atunah said:


> As a reader I say this all the time. It affects all of you, even if you are not in KU. Because of this garbage cluttering up the genres, I don't even bother browsing anymore. It takes eyeballs away from all of your books when readers don't bother anymore to look. This is especially true right not in anything romance related.
> 
> I am done with browsing. I have resorted to read Montlake titles in KU and those selected that are recommended by other readers only. I will not browse anymore for KU reads. I also am not browsing for non KU reads anymore. So instead of casual browsing, which always brought me some interesting new authors, I read what I already own, get from the library and those again selected by other readers by recommendations.
> 
> So if your books are not getting recommended by the readers I know, I'll never see them. I used to.


This. +1 million


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

drno said:


> Dorothy Thompson is getting the Amazon hammer! 60 books gone. A good deal of remaining 30 have this message:
> 
> *Item Under Review
> This book is currently unavailable because there are significant quality issues with the source file supplied by the publisher.
> ...


Probably what caused the whole Amazon site to shut down today...


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

drno said:


> Dorothy Thompson is getting the Amazon hammer! 60 books gone. A good deal of remaining 30 have this message:
> 
> *Item Under Review
> This book is currently unavailable because there are significant quality issues with the source file supplied by the publisher.
> ...


I just typed in her name and I see PLENTY of LIVE books WITH THE LINK!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Tons of her books still up and same with the other scammy books in her ABs. It's a bottomless pit.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

KittKatt said:


> I just typed in her name and I see PLENTY of LIVE books WITH THE LINK!


Why are they doing books individually instead of banning the whole account? Makes no sense.

The whole pay by page reads system is a mess. Pay by book and crack down on the scammers.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2016)

I did a search yesterday and Dorothy Thompson had 97 books under this pen name. Less than 30 remain today. And of the remaining books a lot of them have been blocked for review. I think they are going after them book by book and not by account. I still like what they are doing! 

Remember we should heard what the payout per page will be for February in a few days.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

KittKatt said:


> Why are they doing books individually instead of banning the whole account? Makes no sense.
> 
> The whole pay by page reads system is a mess. Pay by book and crack down on the scammers.


They wouldn't even have to ban their accounts. Just ban them from Select. They've done it to authors for having their books published wide. Surely cheating the page read system is worth the same penalty?

Rue


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

ruecole said:


> They wouldn't even have to ban their accounts. Just ban them from Select. They've done it to authors for having their books published wide. Surely cheating the page read system is worth the same penalty?
> 
> Rue


I personally would prefer Amazon move slowly and use caution. Whenever they've gone overboard, it's ended up hurting people who didn't do anything wrong. If Amazon is taking their time, reviewing works carefully, and then removing them. I'm fine with that. It never ends well when they go all Leroy Jenkins and start banning everything that even remotely looks suspicious.


----------



## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Urban Mogul said:


> I personally would prefer Amazon move slowly and use caution. Whenever they've gone overboard, it's ended up hurting people who didn't do anything wrong. If Amazon is taking their time, reviewing works carefully, and then removing them. I'm fine with that. It never ends well when they go all Leroy Jenkins and start banning everything that even remotely looks suspicious.


I agree. My comment was in response to someone who suggested wholesale banning accounts. Being banned from Select would be a compromise that doesn't involve pulling books at all. They would still be on Amazon for sale.

Anyway, I'm just glad Amazon appears to be doing something to curb the scamming. It hurts all honest authors whether in Select or not.

Rue


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Looool. I can see the Fine Art America watermark on some of these "Dorothy Thompson" covers. I guess I'll be sending Lee Avison an email.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

This thread is starting to veer into WHOA* territory.  If members see something on Amazon and want to contact Amazon about it, that's fine.  Helping people know how to report something on Amazon is fine.  Starting a list here of names of people to report to Amazon crosses the line and is fraught with issues.  Authors who are NOT "scammers" could be included and it's possible that not all of our readers would do due diligence in checking them out for themselves.  We're discussing in Admin.  For the time being, names of authors to target will be removed from this point going forward.

Betsy
KB Mod

*What Happens on Amazon stays on Amazon.


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

i write too said:


> He gave some strange reason why he took his books down and it wasn't because Amazon told him to fix something.


That's what he SAID, but I'm sure you'll forgive me if I say I'm not convinced of his moral fiber. I think he's lying. It makes literally no sense whatsoever that anyone would take down work that's earning them that kind of money. 800K page reads in a day? That's $3200. IN A DAY. He's lying about why he unpublished.


----------



## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

Was I wrong!!!

Not naming names, but it seems that scammer X only had a few books blocked for review by Amazon. Scammer X is removing books under pen name X and uploading them under pen name Y. He has uploaded more than 50 boxsets complete with links to back of book and links to win Free Kindles in past 24 hours. The stories inside are the same as under pen name X.

The lazy b*stard hasn't even changed pen name X to Y on cover.  

I think when Amazon announces the payout per page on March 15 and it's lower than it is today, I will write an email to [email protected]


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

The person has several pen names. They are obvious by the fake review blurbs in the frontmatter and the theft of Lee Avison's historical-themed photographs. That poor photographer has been infringed upon REPEATEDLY by this a-hole.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Screenshot with Fine Art America watermark. You can see the "a" and "m" in the lower right.

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/2-victorian-couple-dancing-lee-avison.html


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

(FWIW, I'm a new author who won't be participating in KU while this is going on.)


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

KittKatt said:


> Why are they doing books individually instead of banning the whole account? Makes no sense.
> 
> The whole pay by page reads system is a mess. Pay by book and crack down on the scammers.


because i only reported 11 books so far...


----------



## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

It really is hopeless because I have found 40 pen names for this beautiful man!!! Only the zika virus can stop him now.   Good Lord!!! He's gonna have so many page reads that he's gonna be the first Kindle Unlimited millionaire.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Eh, if someone wants to PM me some ways to find the scammers and the method of reporting, I have large swaths of downtime at the day job (no I can't write there, ethics problems) and I occasionally enjoy mindless repetitive tasks.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Reading through this thread turned my stomach. Yes, ultimately, I need to keep my eyes on my own paper and accept that there will always be scumbag opportunists. But damn. Trying to unravel that guy's web of pen names led me down a rabbit hold that, in my mind, justifies my misanthropic tendencies.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

kerris said:


> One of the community guys from Germany that helped taking down the scammers here.
> 
> My opinion on the topic is this. Amazon will stop this scam eventually, but a giant moves slowly. So this will take most likely until summer.
> 
> ...


Amazon can do this easy on their end by looking at the ratio of KU earnings vs EBOOK sales earnings

For most authors, the ratio is fairly balanced. If it's way off, there is something going on when KU earning is like 95% or more and ebook sales earning is only 5% or less for that author.

Next step, look at the ebook from these suspicious authors to see if there are scams going on.

It's not time consuming either since Amazon has the data on KU earnings / Ebook sales earnings for each author. Do this for all authors who earns more than $200 a month and KU is 90% or more of their earnings.

So easy to do and so easy to catch the KU scammers.

Amazon, please get on it.


----------



## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

Yes, it's super easy to catch this with a query on Amazon's end.  But they don't want to. The scammers get people to the Amazon store, which is Amazon's end goal. That's why nothing's happening. We are pawns to them.


----------



## Monie (Oct 4, 2014)

M M said:


> Yes, it's super easy to catch this with a query on Amazon's end. But they don't want to. The scammers get people to the Amazon store, which is Amazon's end goal. That's why nothing's happening. We are pawns to them.


I don't think scammers get people to the store. They actually turn people off. One of the reason that I as a reader have nor signed up for KU is that version 1.0 was overridden with sorry books and scam material. Version 2.0 seems to be even worse. I don't want to pay a monthly fee to wade through that mess. I can use Bookbub for sales and word of mouth for recommendations. It saves me time and effort.

There are going to be writers that I will miss about out on but I don't have the time or energy to keep downloading samples to make sure a book is legit or being disappointed that the s as sample is the best part of the book.

I think Amazon carries more about bragging about it being the largest ebook retailer than it does about it's customer experience.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

No matter what  Amazon does, the scammers will find a way to make money. We're talking people making life-changing amounts of money here. The temptation is just too great. Even a normally very honest person, would be tempted.  Not to mention there's lots of borderline cases too. Like writers who are bundling up related books - and using the linking techniques to get full reads on the omnibus.  These aren't necessarily hard core scammers with outsourced books. They are just like the rest of us and the money they're earning is just too tempting to turn down. 

It's not as simple as "scammy book filled with nonsense = bad customer experience". Some of the books using these techniques look quite nice and are entertaining reads. It's an easy out to try and dismiss them all.. but that's ignoring part of the problem. As long as this KU exists , people are going to do everything in their power to get readers to turn those pages.


----------



## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

This looks promising.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-update-your-kindle-amazon-launches-critical-software-update_uk_56e12d29e4b096ed3adba4ed?edition=uk


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Rinelle Grey said:


> This looks promising.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-update-your-kindle-amazon-launches-critical-software-update_uk_56e12d29e4b096ed3adba4ed?edition=uk


That's actually rather old news. It's been under discussion in the Let's Talk Kindle here for several weeks. Further, the 'critical' part is a bit of an 'alarmist' word . . . it's just a regular update that, if your older model kindle is frequently connected to Wifi, is probably already on the device because it probably was downloaded automatically and you may not have even noticed.

Note that it's only for OLDER MODELS . . . so I suspect that it has something to do with the wireless protocols. Even if you don't have the latest OS after the date mentioned, you can still install it manually, and even if you don't do that, you should still be able to download books and transfer to the kindle via the USB connection.

eta: here's the link to the Amazon page that explains it:
Latest Kindle Updates


----------



## Guest (Mar 11, 2016)

I think they should do something like this:
1) Set borrowed tier ( a novel at the old KU1 price...a picture book or art book as a novel price...a short story at around 40-50cents...) This could be tracked by the genre you submit to.
2) Have a clear and defined check list. Anyone who breaches that gets a warning, followed by a book cull if not fixed.

Now, I don't pretend to know the best way forward but KU1 and KU2 had/have major flaws. I do agree that people will try to scam. People will also write half-cut stuff just to publish faster (slush pile) but hopefully a hybrid, mixed model with tiers could fix some stuff.
Maybe this could appease all authors? 
I do like the idea they are trying to add some kind of quality control. I think readers get sick of half-baked books with awful grammar and story telling. So I do have faith amazon are trying to streamline this.
Let us face a cold, hard truth here: Amazon owe us nothing really. In fact, if not for Amazon, most of us would not have the oppurtinity to publish. Myself included. I have rejection letters aplenty. 

Okay, sitting back and waiting for the inevitable slap-down.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

It just boggles my mind that Amazon may be taking down books piece meal (if they are even doing that) instead of banning the accounts.

I just don't understand it.

I am working hard to put out quality books and these scammers are having a field day with the money in the pool and laughing all the way to the bank.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Rinelle Grey said:


> This looks promising.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-to-update-your-kindle-amazon-launches-critical-software-update_uk_56e12d29e4b096ed3adba4ed?edition=uk


Don't get your hopes up. The update only installs an updated security certificate, which replaces the one that will expire soon. Without the updated security certificate, the Kindle soon won't be able to connect securely with the Amazon server over Wi-fi or 3G. Without that secure connection, you won't be able to download eBooks directly to your Kindle, but you can still download eBooks via USB connection until you manually install the updated security certificate. So, the Kindle will still work, just not as conveniently.

This Amazon update doesn't directly address KU pages read or the scammers' other sleazy tactics, unfortunately.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

As to update. I have noticed on my last one, the newest, 5. 7. 3, unless I didn't notice it on 5.7.2. It now remembers more than just 2 points of locations when you read. Difficult to explain to those that don't have Paperwhites or Voyage. You can use whats called the page flip. You flip from the bottom up and it puts a smaller screen within the screen, which then lets you browse in the book by page or chapter, without losing the previous location. That previous page count stays on the bottom so if you are done, you click on it, tab the smaller window and you are back where you were. 

Before the update it would remember the 2 positions. Now it remembers all of them. I just tested it out and used go to to go to specific pages, and I used it to go to specific chapters. If I click the window to go there and then flip up, I now see all of those locations/pages I have been in the book listed and I can scroll through the one I want. I don't know how many it keeps, I stopped at 6 to test. So it will list page 30, 68, 200, etc. Any place I went to. Went to with go to and with flip page that is. So it creates these multiple spots now. Its really hard to explain. Now it could just be for convenience and nothing else. 
But maybe its also meant to remember each time a reader uses a link, a go to, to go to a further point in the book and if that is all that shows on the report that gets send from the kindle, maybe it will flag those. 

Or it could just be nothing to do with anything but reader options. But considering this latest update 3.7.3 came shortly after we just got 3.6.2 and then 3.6.2.1, who knows. I am not 100"s sure I got all the numbers right, other than the latest


----------



## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Atunah said:


> You can use whats called the page flip. You flip from the bottom up and it puts a smaller screen within the screen, which then lets you browse in the book by page or chapter, without losing the previous location. That previous page count stays on the bottom so if you are done, you click on it, tab the smaller window and you are back where you were.


{Excited} I never knew it would do this! So cool! I love my Voyage with a passion, and now I have another reason. Thank you so much for explaining this. Sorry to disrupt the thread. As you were.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

PaulineMRoss said:


> {Excited} I never knew it would do this! So cool! I love my Voyage with a passion, and now I have another reason. Thank you so much for explaining this. Sorry to disrupt the thread. As you were.


Glad I could help. The page flip has always been there, but it didn't remember all the different locations. Pretty sure it didn't. Just the last one. 
I use it a lot if I have to go back to like the first chapter to remember what year this is suppose to be and how old the characters are. I read a lot of historical romance so I want to refresh some stuff. Or I thought I might have misses something and I can just flip back page by page, re-read and go right back where I was. Just one of the many neat things on the newer kindles. 

Just saying if it creates some sort of point in the book, now multiple if needed, why that can't be used when the info gets send to the mothership. Maybe its just too much info coming in from millions and millions of kindles. But they already send info all the time. Every time I put something in a collection, every time I make a note, highlight something. You can even see other peoples highlights if you turn it on. So lots of stuff already being send off. Surely they can use that to at least to some mass decisions on what looks iffy.

So the next payout, comes out in what 4 days? For what month will that one be? February? Or January. This spamming was really really bad in January already, but February really made it 10 times worse it seemed. Just looking at the numbers of releases and how one can't even find normal stuff anymore. Its like they cashed in last payment and so uploaded 100's of 100's of more scams per scammer.


----------



## Learning by lurking (Jan 17, 2016)

Just a few comments on this thread. I commented on a similar thread at the beginning of February. I had stated shame on Amazon for allowing this. The reply by some who seem to have changed their tune was no, shame on the publishers doing this. I stand by my original feeling on this. Amazon is ultimately the one to blame for instituting a payout structure they have no way of measuring. Having said that, I believe there is a reason they want this for now. It works to their benefit.

Before KU, erotica and how- to books did very well in regards to sales. And charged prices that many novelists cannot get for their genre. Using the Kenp payout was a brilliant strategy on their part to force the price downward on these markets. Now you have the mega super bundles,  and more and more being priced daily at .99 instead of the normal 2.99 for a short. I am not referring here to the mega bundles that are dictionaries and foreign language books, etc.

I worked at an Amazon warehouse last fall through Christmas, and one of the pictures on the daily slide show we had to watch bragged that Amazon was unique in that its business model was geared to making money by lowering prices. Amazon has used KU to do this quite effectively. Now you see bundles that once would have sold individually for more than 100.00-200.00 being bundled together for .99.

They have gotten indies addicted to the KU money, and are using that to their advantage. And for most who self publish, if you don't like it you can feel free to pull out and lose a lot of money. They have most of us over a barrel and know it. I predict that in the coming years, all of this will seem like nothing compared to how it will be. 

I think it behooves all of us to work as diligently as we can to build our mailing lists now, so that when the squeeze becomes harder and harder we can wean ourselves off of their monopoly.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/2016/03/amazon-takes-aim-at-scammers-but-hits-authors/



> The latest wheeze from this shady crew was to place a message at the start of their KU titles encouraging readers to click through to the end - because this fools Amazon's system into thinking the entire book has been read, the author of that title then receives an inflated payout from the KU pot, and then honest, hard-working writers who aren't pulling these cheap tricks on readers have less money to share. It's a mess. These guys are peeing in the KU pool and Amazon is paying them by the gallon.
> 
> And it seems this is what triggered the TOC crackdown.


----------



## Row (Oct 21, 2014)

ChristinaGarner said:


> Reading through this thread turned my stomach. Yes, ultimately, I need to keep my eyes on my own paper and accept that there will always be scumbag opportunists. But damn. Trying to unravel that guy's web of pen names led me down a rabbit hold that, in my mind, justifies my misanthropic tendencies.


Totally agree. Sick


----------



## kerris (Mar 10, 2016)

> *The tricks in KU*
> 
> Imagine you could create e-books that contain more than 3000 pages, with just a tiny bit of effort. With a single Kindle-Unlimited subscription, you can now click through the book and earn 9,90 EUR (3000 x 0,0033 EUR) (USD 10,84). With that, your abo is paid for, and if you have a free trial month, you already earned 9,90 EUR. If you create 100 of these books, you can already earn 990 EUR (USD 1084). If you find 10 people who click through your books (maybe for a bit of money), then you can earn real good money with these ebooks. We're going to call these people *clickers*
> 
> ...




Taken from this German blog article (English version in the original article as well half way through):
http://selfpubli.eu/index.php/selfpublishing/67-die-betruegermaschen-im-kindle-unlimited-system


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

kerris said:


> Taken from this German blog article (English version in the original article as well half way through):
> http://selfpubli.eu/index.php/selfpublishing/67-die-betruegermaschen-im-kindle-unlimited-system


Amazon produced a fatally flawed system. I suspect it is the fault of Amazon's merciless pressure cooker environment where people are forced to produce without a true sense of true community.

Things like this happen in collegial team-based environments also, but the difference is that the mistakes get taken care of because people are allowed to admit fault, take their lumps and solve a crisis as a community. From what I've read about Amazon, this is not the case.

I imagine there will be a purge of Amazon employees over this as well as a purge of scammer books. If this is true, let's hope the new team creates a better system and the old team finds a better employer that doesn't create an environment where a system like this can see the light of day.

Also, I hope all the scammers suffer from chronic flatulence and their significant others leave them because of stinky nighttime emissions.

(EDIT: This post has sapped many of their sense of humor. Before people freak out and accuse me of penguin massacres and puppy eating, I need to point out that the last sentence was a joke. Farts are still funny in my book. Of course, my book was written by 7th graders, but I stand by my bathroom humor.)


----------



## Row (Oct 21, 2014)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Amazon produced a fatally flawed system. I suspect it is the fault of Amazon's merciless pressure cooker environment where people are forced to produce without a true sense of true community.
> 
> Things like this happen in collegial team-based environments also, but the difference is that the mistakes get taken care of because people are allowed to admit fault, take their lumps and solve a crisis as a community. From what I've read about Amazon, this is not the case.
> 
> ...


Wow. Wishing ill on others is just plain asinine. This thread is getting out of hand.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Row said:


> Wow. Wishing ill on others is just plain asinine. This thread is getting out of hand.


Yes, it is getting out of hand. Also, I meant the chronic flatulence part as a joke. Farts are funny. I didn't really mean it. Well, I didn't mean it ... too much ...


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Yes, it is getting out of hand. Also, I meant the chronic flatulence part as a joke. Farts are funny. I didn't really mean it. Well, I didn't mean it ... too much ...


Alas cruel world, where one cannot wish farts on a black hat! 

Maybe we could wish something fart-causing on them instead. Mountains of cabbage? A whole tub of these?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)




----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

Now I know why the amount of KU books added jump from the typical 1000 a day to almost 2000 a day. Probably in large part due to scammers putting up large numbers of unreadable "click-me" ebooks.

Tracking KU

1,023,681 (7.1)
1,021,552 (7.2)
1,018,591 (7/6)
1,024,944 (7/9)
1,028,068 (7/13)
1,033,785 (7/1
1,037,417 (7/22)
1,045,212 (7/2 ----------*815 books per day from 7/1 to 7/28*

1,051,346 (8/01)
1,058,532 (8/9)
1,061,687 (8/12)
1,065,063 (8/16)
1,075,359 (8/25)
1,078,910 (8/2
1,084,541 (8/31) ------------*1100 books per day from 8/1 to 8/31*

1,090,246 (9/6)
1,102,760 (9/21)
1,105,993 (9/24)
1,122,656 (10/1 -------------*762 books per day from 9/6 to 10/18*

1,150,239 (11/24)
1,169,763 (12/12)
1,176,438 (12/19)
1,185,388 (12/25) --------*1129 books per day from 11/24 to 12/25*

1,190,407 (1/1)
1,194,005 (1/9)
1,200,694 (1/17)
1,207,670 (1/25)
1,214,181 (1/30) ----*-827 books per day from 1/1 to 1/30
*

1,218,955 (2/2)
1,225,593 (2/6)
1,249,178 (2/17)
1,254,425 (2/21)
1,264,413 (2/27) -----*1840 books per day from 2/2 to 2/27*

1,281,791 (3/11) --------*1545 books per day from 2/27 to 3/11*

The recent jump can be explained by this post



Sever Bronny said:


> After spending the last 24 hours investigating, I have come to the conclusion it's a deluge bordering on a pandemic.
> 
> Do an Amazon search for "Victorian era romance." Or "duchess romance". Or anything keyword romance related.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> Yes, it is getting out of hand. Also, I meant the chronic flatulence part as a joke. Farts are funny. I didn't really mean it. Well, I didn't mean it ... too much ...


Farts are funny. And they're nothing compared to what I'm sure some people *looks innocent* are wishing on the scammers.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

How Amazon can fix KU:

1.  Count page read page by page and use time duration to catch cases where someone flip page by page a 300 pages book in 3 minutes.  This to prevent scammers from hiring page flippers. 

2.  Hire Real People to check each new ebook submitted.  This is what Apple and Kobo are doing.

KU is paying out $450 million this year.  0.5% of that would be $2.25 million.  More than enough to hire People to check each new ebook and hire people to catch scammers.  Look for people who have very high KU earnings but very low ebooks sales earnings.  Warning flag right there.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Reported my first book. Irritatingly, I'm trying to do legit "write to market" genre research, but my typical research suggests I should be writing a 32k PAGE compilation of "BBw alpha shifter billionaire compilation series", full of tricky links and giveaways.

I think I'm just going to write novels.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> Reported my first book. Irritatingly, I'm trying to do legit "write to market" genre research, but my typical research suggests I should be writing a 32k PAGE compilation of "BBw alpha shifter billionaire compilation series", full of tricky links and giveaways.
> 
> I think I'm just going to write novels.


I am going to write a book about pandas that become intelligent via a runaway science experiment. Think "planet of the apes," only the pamdas take over the world with hugs and everyone lives happily ever after. They will have cuddly sea otter sidekicks also. And penguins. Lots of penguins.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

KeraEmory said:


> Reported my first book. Irritatingly, I'm trying to do legit "write to market" genre research, but my typical research suggests I should be writing a 32k PAGE compilation of "BBw alpha shifter billionaire compilation series", full of tricky links and giveaways.
> 
> I think I'm just going to write novels.


Be careful that you are not lumping all erotica authors in with this scam. They are already getting a bad press on this forum for being scammers...some of them are very good writers who, like you, are trying to make an honest living from their passion.
I predicted this scam with the birth of KU1. I said that shorts are hard to write on their own and that novels won't always herald ethical writers to come up top. I guess the simple solution is to pull out and hedge your bets with sales only. At least a sale is a sale.
Two levels of depression hit me here: 1) the scammers, obviously...it sucks, I get it 2) the folks who incessantly moan yet sell or shift nothing ( I suspect an anger and frustration at this whole system causes this reaction and I get it, I do, I've sold about 20 dollars worth of books this month...whoo)
I think it is all well and good to debate and raise issues, as indies we want readers to respect our work. That will be lost the longer this happens. But I do not think it is helpful to single out genres of work. I get it, some people hate erotica and romance...that can make a lot of money. But it always has done. Some readers actually love that style of book, so we need to get over that snobbery just because our works dont bring in that kind of money. 
I predict that readers will eventually get fed up of these books with massive links etc...it graphically looks like crap, it smacks of desperation and the game will be so transparent that readers will naturally shift away from this kind of telemarketing tactic. I dont think we give readers enough respect...they are intelligent and all this will soon grow old. As I reader myself, I wouldn't buy a book that told me to check other stuff out first.
Just remember, before KU1 we had to sell. That hasn't changed. KU isn't some god given right. Change your game. Go wide. Amazon will listen to the consumer not the small guy writing. It is an unpleasant and frustrating truth, and I do share everyone's concerns but it's is a truth nonetheless.


----------



## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Row said:


> Wow. Wishing ill on others is just plain asinine. This thread is getting out of hand.


Since clearly there's been a miscommunication, I present the following as a public service announcement:










For [expletive deleted]'s sake, PJ was talking about scammers being cursed with too much farting. Hardly something we need to consult the Geneva Conventions about.


----------



## kerris (Mar 10, 2016)

*Further proof of this scam:*



http://imgur.com/YwBA0


Not only are these people bragging about it and selling it as genius hard work that eventually paid of, the owner of that screenshotted account is only 15 years old. Yes, it's that easy! A deluded kid can do it and rob honest people of money they deserve because of a blatant Amazon glitch.

Also pay attention to the dates. The scam even passed Amazon's 60-days-payout-window. Most likely more than once. The money's long gone.

_Edited to remove link that identified an individual. See my prior post. --Betsy/KB Moderator_


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Andrew Murray said:


> Be careful that you are not lumping all erotica authors in with this scam. They are already getting a bad press on this forum for being scammers...some of them are very good writers who, like you, are trying to make an honest living from their passion.
> I predicted this scam with the birth of KU1. I said that shorts are hard to write on their own and that novels won't always herald ethical writers to come up top. I guess the simple solution is to pull out and hedge your bets with sales only. At least a sale is a sale.
> Two levels of depression hit me here: 1) the scammers, obviously...it sucks, I get it 2) the folks who incessantly moan yet sell or shift nothing ( I suspect an anger and frustration at this whole system causes this reaction and I get it, I do, I've sold about 20 dollars worth of books this month...whoo)
> I think it is all well and good to debate and raise issues, as indies we want readers to respect our work. That will be lost the longer this happens. But I do not think it is helpful to single out genres of work. I get it, some people hate erotica and romance...that can make a lot of money. But it always has done. Some readers actually love that style of book, so we need to get over that snobbery just because our works dont bring in that kind of money.
> ...


Andrew, I wasn't really singling out a genre, as I don't know how to find any legitimate erotic romance at this point, even if that was what I wanted to research. I assume your typical dedicated romance writer is NOT writing the kind of titles I described--but maybe I'm wrong.

And more to the point, what I'm trying to find is what sub-categories might hold slightly more literary UF/vampire/suspense titles. The problem is this stuff is clogging up ALL the fiction categories.

I can see why curating services/mailing lists have become such a big deal.


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

kerris said:


> *Further proof of this scam:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is beyond infuriating, especially for someone who works hard to produce quality work, while these talentless people get to do no work, outside of spamming,and get to blatantly steal from honest hard working authors within the KU program with no real recourse. To top it off, Amazon let the rate fall KNOWING that something wasn't right with the explosive growth of reads, instead of taking money from these unscrupulous people and putting it back into the pot.

THAT to me says Amazon could give a flying [email protected]#! about its authors, top seller or not.

Honestly, someone needs to start a thread or petition or something for everyone to band together and let our voices be heard about this problem so maybe Amazon will actually DO something. Don't hold your breath on that though.

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

And most never write a book. I watched a few videos, I watched nine videos and I got no info. I knew I was watching crap but I was curious how shifty the man could be. His initials are DK. Turned out I had to join their course. It's all, excuse my language, bullshit. Get rich quick, pyramid schemes, you name it...all the same. One guy explained that he unpublished ALL his books...I bet you did mate, none you wrote, and probably most were ripped off.
Keep writing guys. Be artists. Learn your ethical promo stuff and dig slowly for your gold. These crooks sell you a lie.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

I'd like non-authors to come forward. Share your opinions. Do you see through this? We want to write and draw the best books for you guys. We are thankful for your custom. We want to entertain. Your opinions are the most valuable. As readers you can change this.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

I had to comment on his youtube. He needs to know some of us are onto him. Explain to me why you would unpublish books that were making you thousands just so you can concentrate on coaching? Surely that is passive income, right?


----------



## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

Even in my erotica writing years I wrote my own stuff. Since then I've been working under another name in an entirely different genre, but that's become saturated with these scammy, one-click books. Some of the "authors" even have high author rankings. Readers really can't tell the difference. These books mimic all the others in the genre, besides the heavy keywords in the titles.

*sigh*

The scammers are also working FB and running ads as well. Take a look at this FB page: https://www.facebook.com/Dark-Romance-Publishing-1110511572306824/?fref=ts All of those books are from scammers.

*more sighing*

I work hard at what I do. I adore writing for the creative outlet. The last 6 years have been fantastic in that respect. I've had some success as well. However, my page reads plummeted inexplicably overnight at the beginning of February. I think a lot of people had the same thing happen. Now we know why.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Virginia, hope you don't mind me saying but I looked at the first book on that FB page, I can't see anything scammy about it. 
Anyway, I feel your pain and I hope all is resolved.


----------



## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

They've "cleaned up" some of their books. Look a little further down.


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

Virginia Wade said:


> Even in my erotica writing years I wrote my own stuff. Since then I've been working under another name in an entirely different genre, but that's become saturated with these scammy, one-click books. Some of the "authors" even have high author rankings. Readers really can't tell the difference. These books mimic all the others in the genre, besides the heavy keywords in the titles.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> ...


These people are making LIFE-CHANGING money! There are some honest authors on here, who work hard af, barely scrapping by to pay even the smallest bill (Thank God I'm not one of them but could be soon if this is allowed to continue) while these people are raking in that easy money! We're talking 2-3 years worth of an average job's salary in one MONTH. For doing absolutely NOTHING. How can anyone be okay with this?

Amazon not doing anything sets the precedence that this kind of s$!! is okay. Every one should get a proxy, get a bot, start outsourcing and start spamming, cause hey, if you can't beat em, join em right? Once there is no quality left in the store maybe a new platform will arise that actually cares about its authors.  Here's to wishful thinking.


----------



## ufwriter (Jan 12, 2015)

I watched several of those YouTube videos, and I just...I don't know what to say anymore. In the most recent one, he goes through the process of "writing" a new book which involves a bunch of copy/pasting and cackling at finding out one of the example books he's found is using his page read scam. It's a two-hour video, so I didn't watch the whole thing. I'm sure there are even more gems in it though.

I think I need to go eat some cookies.


----------



## Claire Ryan (Jun 7, 2012)

A while back, I was working on a side project - an ebook discovery engine based on community-curated keywords. I didn't have the skill to make it work effectively at the time, but now I'm wondering whether I should go back to it :/ If a book's relevancy to a genre is determined by the community alone, these scammers would crash and burn.

I don't know. I want to do something more than simply complain at Amazon about these assholes. It grinds my gears to know they're getting away with this. I cannot BELIEVE that Amazon missed this, they're a major technology company for gods' sake.


----------



## Harald (Mar 23, 2015)

Here's David Gaughran's take on this from yesterday:
https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/amazon-takes-aim-at-scammers-but-hits-authors

He (and others) think it's the position of the TOC that's triggering Amazon Quality Notices. Others don't.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> I had to comment on his youtube. He needs to know some of us are onto him. Explain to me why you would unpublish books that were making you thousands just so you can concentrate on coaching? Surely that is passive income, right?


It makes no sense at all UNLESS your books were unpublished for you (by Amazon) and/or your account was about to be banned.
What kills me is how this coach claims he is helping people build a business. Hello...he should be on American Greed along with the other cheaters. These folks are laughing all the way to the bank.
Amazon appears to be going after individual books instead of banning whole accounts.

Amazon needs to clean this up NOW and honestly, though it's probably not possible, I feel that the amount of money paid to the scammers should be added into a pot by Amazon and distributed to all the authors who were cheated. Even if they can't get it back from the scammers, they should add it from their own slush fund. After all they said they were paying by PAGE READS not PAGE CLICK OVERS!
They should never have instituted a method of paying people that they couldn't support. And since they did, they need to pay what was promised.

I love Amazon and I enjoy writing for them...but they have dropped the ball on this one and they need to fix it and FAST!


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

I'm making a plan to go wide with my next few releases. I went from a few hundred page reads per title to almost nothing.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Learning by lurking said:


> Just a few comments on this thread. I commented on a similar thread at the beginning of February. I had stated shame on Amazon for allowing this. The reply by some who seem to have changed their tune was no, shame on the publishers doing this. I stand by my original feeling on this. Amazon is ultimately the one to blame for instituting a payout structure they have no way of measuring. Having said that, I believe there is a reason they want this for now. It works to their benefit.
> 
> Before KU, erotica and how- to books did very well in regards to sales. And charged prices that many novelists cannot get for their genre. Using the Kenp payout was a brilliant strategy on their part to force the price downward on these markets. Now you have the mega super bundles, and more and more being priced daily at .99 instead of the normal 2.99 for a short. I am not referring here to the mega bundles that are dictionaries and foreign language books, etc.
> 
> ...


I can't believe Amazon would allow this scamming to happen deliberately. These scam books are jammed with cookbooks, foreign language text, the same books over and over etc. THAT is NOT a good customer experience. Amazon wants their users to have a good experience. If you look at the reviews on some of these books, they are not good (except for the bogus ones)

I also doubt they want tons of angry authors spouting off to the media about how they are being ripped off. And they want to retain quality books so it doesn't make sense for the payout to drop to where good authors will go wide instead of staying exclusive.

It is beyond sad they have a system of payment in place they can't support...I guess they never dreamed how these scammers would cheat the system.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Andrew Murray said:


> I'd like non-authors to come forward. Share your opinions. Do you see through this? We want to write and draw the best books for you guys. We are thankful for your custom. We want to entertain. Your opinions are the most valuable. As readers you can change this.


I've come across books at Amazon that are not really books . . . . when I do, I report them to Amazon. But it's been some time. I think what is recommended to me is very much determined by what I buy/borrow/read so I don't see the sorts of books being discussed here unless I go looking for them. Which I don't.

That said, I don't very often just go browsing for something to read on Amazon . . . I get things recommended from a variety of other sources. When I do come across problematic books -- keywords stuffed as part of the 'title', reviews that make it clear that it's a cut and paste job, etc. -- I report them to Amazon. If I've actually bought them -- doesn't happen often -- I return 'em, even if it's more than a week.

But, again, it's very very rare I come across such a title during the normal course of shopping on Amazon. Honestly, if I weren't active here, I doubt I'd know that there eve were such 'books'.


----------



## booklover888 (May 20, 2012)

Andrew Murray said:


> I'd like non-authors to come forward. Share your opinions. Do you see through this? We want to write and draw the best books for you guys. We are thankful for your custom. We want to entertain. Your opinions are the most valuable. As readers you can change this.


Nice of you to ask, I have posted in the Writer's Cafe and never gotten a response.  I am a reader, though I used to write, wrote books for years and years, before I had kids, after that my writing trickled and finally stopped. I do think about going back to it, but my stuff wasn't really that good  I liked my books, and that's what mattered, right?

Anyway, I now have 1 year of KU, so I am very interested in the issues. I am an extremely voracious reader, so I really want to find good things to read in KU. So yes, the things posted here really burn me. I don't want good authors to leave the program due to this! Yes I have found some of these ridiculous "books." Thanks to this thread, I have learned how to report them, and do so. The scammy books make me furious, because I don't want to have to wade through them to pick out the good ones. Unless I know the author's work, I will now use the "look inside" and download the sample first before "checking out" the book.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Jane_Dough said:


> I wonder if it would cut down on fudging the TOC if they developed a way to add the TOC during the publishing process, sort of what D2D does.


The problem is not really the TOC. It's the CLICK HERE TO WIN A KINDLE or ANSWER THIS RIDDLE CLICK TO SEE ANSWER text at the start of these books (BTW I bet the promised prizes are bogus also).
This takes readers all the way to the back where the scammers get full credit for every page read. Which is why the books are stuffed to the max with crapola. This way they can get say $13 for one click.
They can have their friends click or pay click farms.

And then of course the problem with the TOC is Amazon's system not being able to count page reads which means a TOC at the back gives full credit also if a reader goes there when they start the book.


----------



## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

Having the TOC in the back and a single link in the front to the TOC results in the same behavior that pays a publisher for a full read as does the Click to Win link... Amazon is right to remove both.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Jane_Dough said:


> I wonder if it would cut down on fudging the TOC if they developed a way to add the TOC during the publishing process, sort of what D2D does.


Oh trust me.. Amazon did crack down on the TOC issue. The scammers have moved on to other methods... like putting click bait inside the book. It's a lot harder to detect. You don't necessarily have to get the reader to click right to the end.. but you do get them to click around the compilation. Even getting someone half-way through a huge book can be a nice payout.

Or you stick something interesting at the end of the book "Click Here Download Your Free Bonus Book". The reader clicks, gets routed to the end. The last page hosting a link to the download the bonus material.

And I still blame Amazon. Because they lied to us. They have no real way of counting pages read. The fact that so many of us are giving them a free pass on this, shocks me.

Amazon is basing their KU payouts on a lie. They really have no idea how many pages were actually read. They intentionally did not disclose how KENPC and KU payouts work. That is the true source of this mess. If the KU system worked the way they told us it did.. this exploit wouldn't be possible.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Posting from a readerly perspective:

I don't think I've ever been able to find any fiction in KU that seemed terribly readable, in between all the spam, aside from all the obvious loss-leaders like Hunger Games (if that's still in KU). I've mostly used it for non-fiction. In fact, I found a lot of good writing-craft books occasionally in KU, including James Scott Bell's stuff. You can occasionally find trad-pubbed travel books in KU, and even some indie ones are decent.

But I've only spent about three months total as a paid subscriber in KU, and the most recent month's sub was because I was trying desperately to 'read deeply in my genre' and 'write to market', but I don't have much patience for wading through all the trash to find the real books.

I can say for sure that I never bother with a 'look inside' on a book that has heavily stuffed titles.

I don't know how reader-only readers parse that stuff. To me the spam/trash is obvious (stuffed titles), but I'm a detail-oriented person, and I'm also picky as heck.

And the kind of promo sites I qualify for at this point will accept anything (which I need, because newb with no reviews), and they mostly seem to be advertising a lot of that kind of junk.

But the TLR here is that I usually end up giving up quickly when trying to dig down in KU as a _reader._


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

booklover888 said:


> Nice of you to ask, I have posted in the Writer's Cafe and never gotten a response.  I am a reader, though I used to write, wrote books for years and years, before I had kids, after that my writing trickled and finally stopped. I do think about going back to it, but my stuff wasn't really that good  I liked my books, and that's what mattered, right?
> 
> Anyway, I now have 1 year of KU, so I am very interested in the issues. I am an extremely voracious reader, so I really want to find good things to read in KU. So yes, the things posted here really burn me. I don't want good authors to leave the program due to this! Yes I have found some of these ridiculous "books." Thanks to this thread, I have learned how to report them, and do so. The scammy books make me furious, because I don't want to have to wade through them to pick out the good ones. Unless I know the author's work, I will now use the "look inside" and download the sample first before "checking out" the book.


Yeah, I don't get many replies to my posts, either. But I'm sure people are reading them, they just don't respond directly. Thanks for sharing your reader's opinion! And thanks for reporting the scam 'books' you find, I'm not subscribed to KU so I never see any of those. Every reader who reports someone helps.


----------



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

You will always have the idiots who are doing it. 

I know some well known indie authors who frequent this forum ( i wont mention who they are ) who are doing it under pen names. How do i know its their books. I won't say but i know its there books

There day is coming.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Like Ann, I haven't encountered any of these books, but again like Ann, I seldom find a book by browsing.  And I am a KU member and do find fiction that I enjoy to read there.  But I'm still finding the books I want to read through recommendations or by clicking on books in signatures here--either authors' books or books in the reading bar of other members.

It's unclear to me why "click-bait" books are affecting page reads on other authors' books unless people are actually reading the books or are giving up on the whole program as a result.  If I found a click-bait book, I would report it, I wouldn't read it.  And then I would go on to find something to actually read.

Betsy


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

i write too said:


> Why would Amazon only check one book by an author/marketer and leave the rest up? Some of these guys have several books with the links inside. It took me about 3 minutes to check one authors books and they have several with those links.
> 
> Why are Amazon dragging their feet? These scammers are laughing, infact smirking like that guy DK.


I don't get that either.

Over and over an author with the initials DT has come up and many of the books are still there.

Why are then not banning these accounts?

It is very painful to work hard and see these scammers not only get paid but enjoy bonus payouts also.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Like Ann, I haven't encountered any of these books, but again like Ann, I seldom find a book by browsing. And I am a KU member and do find fiction that I enjoy to read there. But I'm still finding the books I want to read through recommendations or by clicking on books in signatures here--either authors' books or books in the reading bar of other members.
> 
> It's unclear to me why "click-bait" books are affecting page reads on other authors' books unless people are actually reading the books or are giving up on the whole program as a result. If I found a click-bait book, I would report it, I wouldn't read it. And then I would go on to find something to actually read.
> 
> Betsy


Because if the click bait is to WIN A KINDLE FIRE click here or ANSWER THE RIDDLE click here - Many people WILL click. And when they click the publisher gets a payout which is usually the max as the book is stuffed with crapoloa. Due to all these fake page reads the scammer is also getting KU Bonuses. This dilutes the payout for legit authors (there is only so much money in the pot) and takes the Bonus away from someone who truly earned it.

You may not fall for it but others do as evidenced by the 15 year old getting 64k in a month (see screen shot link earlier in post) and other scam publishers being awarded Kindle All Star Bonuses.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KittKatt said:


> Because if the click bait is to WIN A KINDLE FIRE click here or ANSWER THE RIDDLE click here - Many people WILL click. And when they click the publisher gets a payout which is usually the max as the book is stuffed with crapoloa. Due to all these fake page reads the scammer is also getting KU Bonuses. This dilutes the payout for legit authors (there is only so much money in the pot) and takes the Bonus away from someone who truly earned it.
> 
> You may not fall for it but others do as evidenced by the 15 year old getting 64k in a month (see screen shot link earlier in post) and other scam publishers being awarded Kindle All Star Bonuses.





Boyd said:


> It's not affecting the page reads of other authors, but the scam is definitely hurting the pool of money they determine bonus's and payout rates.


Yes, I understand it's affecting the pool and the bonuses. And I agree it's something Amazon MUST deal with. But more than one author in this thread has said their page reads were down recently and attributed it to the click bait scam.

Most recently:


libwin said:


> I'm making a plan to go wide with my next few releases. I went from a few hundred page reads per title to almost nothing.





Virginia Wade said:


> However, my page reads plummeted inexplicably overnight at the beginning of February. I think a lot of people had the same thing happen. Now we know why.


This is what I don't get....

Betsy


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Like Ann, I haven't encountered any of these books, but again like Ann, I seldom find a book by browsing. And I am a KU member and do find fiction that I enjoy to read there. But I'm still finding the books I want to read through recommendations or by clicking on books in signatures here--either authors' books or books in the reading bar of other members.
> 
> It's unclear to me why "click-bait" books are affecting page reads on other authors' books unless people are actually reading the books or are giving up on the whole program as a result. If I found a click-bait book, I would report it, I wouldn't read it. And then I would go on to find something to actually read.
> 
> Betsy


It's more difficult to stay visible after a few days. Last year a romance novella could rank well for at least a few weeks. Now, the number one book in interracial romance is a 900 page book for 0.99. Many readers are seeing these 900 page books as a bargain, so it makes it harder for a 2.99 129 page novella to stay visible. Also, the amount of romance books being published per day has more than doubled. The 900 page book doesn't look scammy, offering nearly 1,000 pages for one dollar is tough competition.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

M M said:


> Amazon's ranking algorithm also favors page reads over buys so the effect is compounded by books that aren't getting the same page read credits:
> 
> 1) non KU books get buried
> 2) KU books with lower page counts get buried
> ...


What rank are you referring to? Bestseller rank doesn't factor in pagereads. Afaik, no algo does.


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> But more than one author in this thread has said their page reads were down recently and attributed it to the click bait scam.
> Betsy


I published a romance novel at the end of February and it was a complete dud. Normally the book, which is in a popular genre, should have had at least some borrows. This time nothing! I've been wondering for weeks now if I lost my writing skills, which were reasonably good, or if Amazon is fighting the scamlet avalanche by turning off the 30 day recommendation love they normally give newly published titles.

If you've published in the romance genre recently, love to hear your experiences.

I wonder if only the Romance genre is affected by these scammers or if mystery is also seeing an avalanche of scamlets.

I also don't think Amazon is unhappy right now. Some indies still hope KU will be terminated by Amazon. Remember that Amazon with the help of indies and KU within the past 2 years has become a virtual monopoly in the ebook market. Amazon has more than 70 percent of the US ebook market and more than 80 percent of the UK ebook market. Amazon killed Oyster and Scribd. And now Nook is on life support. Whatever we indies say about Amazon, I think Bezos loves what his ebook team and KU team have done over the past 2 years.

As individual indies we win or lose, but Amazon has won.

But again in 3 days we'll see what the payout per page read will be. That affects all indies. But even if it goes down, what are indies supposed to do? Go after the 30 percent of the ebook market that Amazon does not own? Don't tell me go wide! Some of us have bills. Nah! We got nowhere to go. We have to demand that Amazon clean up the scams, but how do you tell a monopoly to do anything, though we, indies, helped create it?


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

drno said:


> I published a romance novel at the end of February and it was a complete dud. Normally the book, which is in a popular genre, should have had at least some borrows. This time nothing! I've been wondering for weeks now if I lost my writing skills, which were reasonably good, or if Amazon is fighting the scamlet avalanche by turning off the 30 day recommendation love they normally give newly published titles.
> 
> If you've published in the romance genre, love to hear your experiences.
> 
> I wonder if only the Romance genre is affected by these scammers or if mystery is also seeing an avalanche of scamlets.


My new releases used to make at least $200.00 the first month. Last month my new release made $50.


----------



## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

Page reads and sales rank:

From Amazon:

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A21KM4BNAD42EJ

This is near the end:

Free and Paid Rankings
In the Kindle Store, the Best Sellers Rank is divided into Free and Paid lists. If you enroll in KDP Select, your book will have a ranking in the Free list during its free promotional period. Once the free promotion is over, your book's previous Paid rank will influence its new rank when it enters the Paid categories again.

Your book's sales rank may also improve if customers read pages in your book through the Kindle Owners' Lending Library or Kindle Unlimited. Visit our Free Book Promotions Help page for more information.

I am convinced that it does, but of course only Amazon knows for sure.

And to answer an earlier post - mysteries and thrillers are impacted big time.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Ah, I see. I believe that refers to borrows not actual page reads, but I understand the confusion. I don't think anyone has ever seen actual evidence of page reads counting toward rank, but borrows certainly do.


----------



## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

Monique said:


> Ah, I see. I believe that refers to borrows not actual page reads, but I understand the confusion. I don't think anyone has ever seen actual evidence of page reads counting toward rank, but borrows certainly do.


I see what you are saying - the wording is confusing. I might be misinterpreting. But I have to say that based on my own books, I really do think they are being counted. I don't want this to be the case of course, but I still think it's true.


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

The more I think about this, the more I think Amazon really screwed the pooch on this one. They basically have a broken system, in which someone can push completely nonsense as a product and screw everyone who pushes the actual product the platform is made for. I wouldn't be surprised by a class action suit.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

libwin said:


> It's more difficult to stay visible after a few days. Last year a romance novella could rank well for at least a few weeks. Now, the number one book in interracial romance is a 900 page book for 0.99. Many readers are seeing these 900 page books as a bargain, so it makes it harder for a 2.99 129 page novella to stay visible. Also, the amount of romance books being published per day has more than doubled. The 900 page book doesn't look scammy, offering nearly 1,000 pages for one dollar is tough competition.


I'm still confused...I thought we were talking about page reads in KU? I don't really even know what most of the books I borrow in KU are priced at. But, if I were going to look at price, I'd borrow the most expensive-to-buy books, as the cheap books I could buy outright. Still not sure how scam books affect number of pages read of "real" books in KU. . Sorry if I'm being dense. Too much sunshine here in San Diego.

Betsy


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

WIP said:


> You will always have the idiots who are doing it.
> 
> I know some well known indie authors who frequent this forum ( i wont mention who they are ) who are doing it under pen names. How do i know its their books. I won't say but i know its there books
> 
> There day is coming.


My guess is some legit authors are turning to this.. because their payout rate and page reads are plummeting. As a member of a few author boards I've seen the complaints. I used to have a job as a manager for a large firm. We put a sales incentive in place and then quickly realized it required close monitoring. Why? Normally honest employees, were so tempted by the bonus money they were willing to do anything to get a sale.

That's what Amazon has created with KU2. If people don't read that last page, the author gets very little money. And let's face it very few people devour a book in one quick setting. My guess is that the flood of click bait books dominating the charts, is also hurting the visibility of legitimate books. If I wrote Western or Regency right now, I'd be hopping mad. It's impossible to find legit full-length Western or Regency Romances right now.

So with their backs against the walls, some authors are turning to the scammers methods. Because they work and they work fast. And this thread is basically a free lesson in how to do pull it off.

That's the insidious part. This works and it makes lots of money -- life changing amounts of it. Even a normally honest person might be desperate enough to try it.

Personally, I'm done with KU. I pulled my books ages ago. I'm doing some rewriting now and my new mantra is this.. Sales NOT borrows. I realize not everyone can afford to take that risk. But I'm watching KU transform into a hive of scum and villainy, and I don't want any part of it.


----------



## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

i write too said:



> I have found another way to search, I search in KU All stars > romance. Then I filter out the books I don't want to see e.g. -bwwm, -shifter -billionaire, -taboo or whatever. I've found some good books that way.


How do you do that? That sounds like a great idea. I can find "KU Bestsellers" and so on, but I can't seem to find "KU All Stars" as a search category.


----------



## libwin (Aug 22, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm still confused...I thought we were talking about page reads in KU? I don't really even know what most of the books I borrow in KU are priced at. But, if I were going to look at price, I'd borrow the most expensive-to-buy books, as the cheap books I could buy outright. Still not sure how scam books affect number of pages read of "real" books in KU. . Sorry if I'm being dense. Too much sunshine here in San Diego.
> 
> Betsy


For example two new books 
book 1 has 30,000 pages 
book 2 has 90,000 pages three novels in one book
Many KU readers will download the 90,000 word book especially if it is a series all in one book. Some readers could be saying why only download one 30,000 word story when they can get several stories for one download. Taking into account they can only hold 10 books at a time. (Non KU readers will download it because it is a series for 0.99) Since these books have more pages many readers will skip over books that are only 100 or 200 pages. 
Non KU readers also buy these books because they are a bargain. 
I don't think this applies to authors with a strong fan base, but for newer authors with only a few books like myself, it is harder to get noticed when offering fewer pages.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm still confused...I thought we were talking about page reads in KU? I don't really even know what most of the books I borrow in KU are priced at. But, if I were going to look at price, I'd borrow the most expensive-to-buy books, as the cheap books I could buy outright. Still not sure how scam books affect number of pages read of "real" books in KU. . Sorry if I'm being dense. Too much sunshine here in San Diego.
> 
> Betsy


My understanding is:

--Scammer makes X dollars on one fake book
--So why not do it with 100 fake books instead?
--Or 1000?

And now the "signal to noise" ratio when browsing KU is so bad that non-scam books are impossible to find on casual browsing. So they don't get clicked, read, or pages viewed, and they don't rise to tops of charts where the visibility would create a ripple effect.

A lot of readers DON'T use mailing lists or other curating services, they just click around on Amazon.com.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Monique said:


> Ah, I see. I believe that refers to borrows not actual page reads, but I understand the confusion. I don't think anyone has ever seen actual evidence of page reads counting toward rank, but borrows certainly do.


By borrows do you mean from the Prime Lending Library, meaning KU doesn't count toward rank at all? Because my trilogy box set has a sales rank in the 40k's with very few sales but decent (for me) page reads... The only way I can figure that happening is from page reads being counted. Or do I misunderstand the distinction you're making between page reads and borrows?


----------



## Claire Ryan (Jun 7, 2012)

kerris said:


> *Further proof of this scam:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should probably point out that it's trivial to fake that information... A screenshot of text on a webpage really doesn't prove anything, unfortunately.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

ChristinaGarner said:


> By borrows do you mean from the Prime Lending Library, meaning KU doesn't count toward rank at all? Because my trilogy box set has a sales rank in the 40k's with very few sales but decent (for me) page reads... The only way I can figure that happening is from page reads being counted. Or do I misunderstand the distinction you're making between page reads and borrows?


I mean KU borrows, when someone borrows the book to read. They aren't counting the actual pages read, but rather the moment the borrow occurs as a "sale" toward rank. Make sense?


----------



## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Monique said:


> I mean KU borrows, when someone borrows the book to read. They aren't counting the actual pages read, but rather the moment the borrow occurs as a "sale" toward rank. Make sense?


That made sense in KU1, but do we know that's still what they're doing in KU2?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Dragovian said:



> That made sense in KU1, but do we know that's still what they're doing in KU2?


The people who watch these sort of things haven't noticed any change.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

libwin said:


> For example two new books
> book 1 has 30,000 pages
> book 2 has 90,000 pages three novels in one book
> Many KU readers will download the 90,000 word book especially if it is a series all in one book. Some readers could be saying why only download one 30,000 word story when they can get several stories for one download. Taking into account they can only hold 10 books at a time. (Non KU readers will download it because it is a series for 0.99) Since these books have more pages many readers will skip over books that are only 100 or 200 pages.
> ...


But this seems to indicate that the 90000 page book (do books really have that many pages? About 400 pages is my max, and I like long books.) is actually readable. I understood these books to not be real books.

But yeah, if they are impacting visibility, that's an issue.


----------



## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Yes, I understand it's affecting the pool and the bonuses. And I agree it's something Amazon MUST deal with. But more than one author in this thread has said their page reads were down recently and attributed it to the click bait scam.
> 
> Most recently:
> This is what I don't get....
> ...


At the beginning of February, Amazon announced a new method they were using to calculate their "Kindle Edition Normalized Pages (KENP)." Many authors reported that the page counts on their KU titles had lost between 5 and 20% of their former numbers (although some authors saw a slight lift in the page counts of some titles). Essentially, a 100,000-word novel might have started at 550 KENP, but the adjusted KENP count went down to 505 (which is what happened to my one KU novel). That means the author would get paid less for an honest read where the reader read all the pages - same story, same words, same length of book, but a different Kindle page count. Losing payout share from the pool is one thing. But when you're losing money on a legitimate read of your story from one month to the next, that's between you and Amazon, and their terms just got a little less attractive to you (via the scammers, who caused the rule change and will figure out a way around it faster than you can adjust your expenses).

Additionally, the click-baiters have caused Amazon to put a cap on the amount of pages they will pay out for a title. It's something ridiculously high for a single book (like 3000 KENP), meant to put a payout cap on any one title (around fifteen bucks or so) so they wouldn't have to be paying the scammers a hundred bucks for a click-bait read. But that's also something that's not outside the realm of possibility for someone participating in one of the legitimate larger multi-author box sets or anthologies. For those authors, who split the profits for their collaborative effort, their share of the box set's reads topped out, perhaps at a too-small share for them to continue in the program.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Claire Ryan said:


> I should probably point out that it's trivial to fake that information... A screenshot of text on a webpage really doesn't prove anything, unfortunately.


However we know the earnings are happening as we can see that some of the books with the link bait are getting KU Bonuses. In addition to the bragging these folks seem inclined to do.

It is my understanding and based on my rankings that it is the point the book is borrowed in KU that counts towards rank not actual page reads.
My books do very well in KU but they would earn more if the pot did not include the scammers. And that is what is maddening. To be told you are getting paid by page reads and to see that is NOT what is happening.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Athena Grayson said:


> At the beginning of February, Amazon announced a new method they were using to calculate their "Kindle Edition Normalized Pages (KENP)." Many authors reported that the page counts on their KU titles had lost between 5 and 20% of their former numbers (although some authors saw a slight lift in the page counts of some titles). Essentially, a 100,000-word novel might have started at 550 KENP, but the adjusted KENP count went down to 505 (which is what happened to my one KU novel). That means the author would get paid less for an honest read where the reader read all the pages - same story, same words, same length of book, but a different Kindle page count. Losing payout share from the pool is one thing. But when you're losing money on a legitimate read of your story from one month to the next, that's between you and Amazon, and their terms just got a little less attractive to you (via the scammers, who caused the rule change and will figure out a way around it faster than you can adjust your expenses).
> 
> Additionally, the click-baiters have caused Amazon to put a cap on the amount of pages they will pay out for a title. It's something ridiculously high for a single book (like 3000 KENP), meant to put a payout cap on any one title (around fifteen bucks or so) so they wouldn't have to be paying the scammers a hundred bucks for a click-bait read. But that's also something that's not outside the realm of possibility for someone participating in one of the legitimate larger multi-author box sets or anthologies. For those authors, who split the profits for their collaborative effort, their share of the box set's reads topped out, perhaps at a too-small share for them to continue in the program.


I can see why they adjusted the page counts as some folks were trying to use wider margins etc. so they tried to make it uniform.

Yes if the $1.35 they earned in KU1 was worth it to them...why wouldn't $15 for a simple click. All you would need is a bunch of friends or to hire small task workers to do the clicking and you could ride the gravy train, enjoying payouts for doing pretty much nothing but stringing crap together in a book.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Monique said:


> I mean KU borrows, when someone borrows the book to read. They aren't counting the actual pages read, but rather the moment the borrow occurs as a "sale" toward rank. Make sense?


Interesting; thanks.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Athena Grayson said:


> At the beginning of February, Amazon announced a new method they were using to calculate their "Kindle Edition Normalized Pages (KENP)." Many authors reported that the page counts on their KU titles had lost between 5 and 20% of their former numbers (although some authors saw a slight lift in the page counts of some titles). Essentially, a 100,000-word novel might have started at 550 KENP, but the adjusted KENP count went down to 505 (which is what happened to my one KU novel). That means the author would get paid less for an honest read where the reader read all the pages - same story, same words, same length of book, but a different Kindle page count. Losing payout share from the pool is one thing. But when you're losing money on a legitimate read of your story from one month to the next, that's between you and Amazon, and their terms just got a little less attractive to you (via the scammers, who caused the rule change and will figure out a way around it faster than you can adjust your expenses).
> 
> Additionally, the click-baiters have caused Amazon to put a cap on the amount of pages they will pay out for a title. It's something ridiculously high for a single book (like 3000 KENP), meant to put a payout cap on any one title (around fifteen bucks or so) so they wouldn't have to be paying the scammers a hundred bucks for a click-bait read. But that's also something that's not outside the realm of possibility for someone participating in one of the legitimate larger multi-author box sets or anthologies. For those authors, who split the profits for their collaborative effort, their share of the box set's reads topped out, perhaps at a too-small share for them to continue in the program.


Wow, that's what I get for not logging into KBoards for February. I had no idea the KENP had gone down! I've just checked and each book has dropped by 20%, and I can assure you I was doing nothing funky with my margins. I had noticed a dip in my page reads but didn't realize it was due to the same books being worth less. How disappointing.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Someone asked upthread if the scam, or scheme or clickbait method was prevalent in non-fiction books on KU. I can now say that it seems common. After seeing one in a bookzio emai. I did some digging.

One such "bonus material" clickbait book was featured in my Bookzio email promotion. As the book is free, I downloaded it. I don't have a KU subscription, so I'm not patronizing the scammer. The book appears to be a cut-and-paste job from another book. I notified amazon as per the procedure outlined by the german community member upthread.

So not only is the market being devalued by the scamming schemers, but the value of our promotoin are sinking as well. Our works are bing lumped in with suspect books. So consumers who no longer rely on the broken amazon ebook system can now no longer rely on email promotions either.

I truly regret putting my novels into KU and will absolutely not be putting future works into KU.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There are sooooooooooooooooooo many scammers out there using these click-tricks I want to barf.


----------



## MmmmmPie (Jun 23, 2015)

On David Gaughran's blog, he just posted this in the comment section:

_"Important Update: I heard that Amazon is aware of the issue, has read the reports, and is on the case. Don't have much more to share than that."
_
https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/amazon-takes-aim-at-scammers-but-hits-authors/#comment-51900


----------



## JBennett (Dec 13, 2011)

I wonder how these scammers with their poor quality books are affecting reader perception of the KU program. Is it affecting KU's retention rate? The scammers could be gobbling up the shared payout pot and lowering the readership within the program. Double whammy!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I hope they throw the book at these people and the keyword title stuffers (often the same people) and I hope the book smells like the aforementioned farts.


----------



## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

Monique said:


> I hope they throw the book at these people and the keyword title stuffers (often the same people) and I hope the book smells like the aforementioned farts.


They need to sue them for millions in damages and make huge examples out of them. Maybe then, people will stop, but I doubt it. What I really don't understand, is how Amazon could pay these people. Some of these people had like zero sales, but 80,000 reads per book. How did that not raise any red flags? Unfriggenbelievable.

Each month, the payout has been dropping at an alarming rate, but to find out that it's largely because of these scammers is sickening. Sorry to say, but KU2 is far, far worse than KU1 EVER was.


----------



## Marie Antoinette (Sep 1, 2014)

i write too said:


> I save the KU All star link in my browser, I start filtering out the kinds of books I don't want.
> 
> Here's the links I use for KU All stars. I've discovered some great authors in there.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!!!

I can usually read a book in a day or two, but I haven't read anything this past week and it's killing me. I can't search for a book without getting pages and pages of crappy KU books. It's a shame, because I've genuinely found some great authors through KU (A. Zavarelli and L. J. Shen), but the scammers make it almost impossible to find authentic authors.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I hope all of you KU subscribers who have difficulty finding good books have complained to Amazon about it and why. If you haven't, please do.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

I really think they need to go back and evaluate approximately what was paid to scammers. And put that in a fund. And then pay those of us in KU for what we should have gotten.

Yeah, it would be a lot of work and money on their part. But if they say they will pay for page reads than that is what they were supposed to do. 

They should also consider a return to KU1 pay per book instead of calculating pages and page reads.

The pages they list are inconsistent from one upload to the next and bonus books even from legit authors make it hard to use the page reads system. We could all be padding our legit books with legit bonus books.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Monique said:


> There are sooooooooooooooooooo many scammers out there using these click-tricks I want to barf.


Ditto. Sigh.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I'm glad Amazon might be doing something about this. I'm sad so many people are so easily ready to let Amazon off the hook. 

As a community we were taken advantage of by Amazon. They can't calculate how much to pay authors based on page reads, accurately. They told us they could. That was a lie. I don't think they should get away with that.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

One thing I know about Amazon is that they don't want to pay out money they don't have to.

I figure they will fix this. I guess they're going after it now--hope they get it done fast. It IS appalling, and while I'm not at all happy that the vulnerability was there to be exploited, blaming Amazon for it rather than blaming the scammers is akin to blaming a burglary victim for not having a window locked, or blaming a woman who's assaulted for walking alone at night or drinking at a party.

In other words--people who scam and abuse are the ones to blame, no matter what the victim did.


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> One thing I know about Amazon is that they don't want to pay out money they don't have to.
> 
> I figure they will fix this. I guess they're going after it now--hope they get it done fast. It IS appalling, and while I'm not at all happy that the vulnerability was there to be exploited, blaming Amazon for it rather than blaming the scammers is akin to blaming a burglary victim for not having a window locked, or blaming a woman who's assaulted for walking alone at night or drinking at a party.
> 
> In other words--people who scam and abuse are the ones to blame, no matter what the victim did.


That's not the issue. The issue is listed a few posts above - amazon's f*ck up on how to count the pages. That is their mistake. We, all of us in KU, have been affected by this mistake. Would you like to have gotten paid at .0048 all these months? Or made the all star more often because that spot wasn't taken by scammers?

Amazon needs to start with a press release as soon as they run the system and nuke all those caught by the filter. Then they need to take the amount of money stolen over the life of KU2 and add it to the fund for the next month, whether they recovered that money themselves or not. That's the start.

Authors faith in Amazon had been shaken. They gotta make it right.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

DGS said:


> That's not the issue. The issue is listed a few posts above - amazon's f*ck up on how to count the pages. That is their mistake. We, all of us in KU, have been affected by this mistake. Would you like to have gotten paid at .0048 all these months? Or made the all star more often because that spot wasn't taken by scammers?
> 
> Amazon needs to start with a press release as soon as they run the system and nuke all those caught by the filter. Then they need to take the amount of money stolen over the life of KU2 and add it to the fund for the next month, whether they recovered that money themselves or not. That's the start.
> 
> Authors faith in Amazon had been shaken. They gotta make it right.


I am pulling my books out of KU as soon as the 90 days are up. My WIP will never see KU.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> One thing I know about Amazon is that they don't want to pay out money they don't have to.


Which is also the source of the problem: they don't want to pay people to look at each uploaded file before it's published, even though instituting an eyes-on approval process would solve this problem completely, without placing unnecessary burden on honest authors.

Indie ebook sales are, I suspect, intensely profitable for Amazon. They don't have to pay people to make choices about ordering our products, to store them, to pick them, to package them, to mail them, to rent planes or make drones to carry them, or to dispose of them when they're returned. Yeah, they had to sink some money into developing devices and apps, and buy some servers, and they have to staff KDP, which they appear to do on a shoestring, but that's probably about it. And they seem to want to keep it that way, even at the expense of appearing incompetent. The only way I can explain it is that Amazon cares more about profitability than their public stance would lead one to believe, and we're about the only low-investment profit stream they have. That is, we're not just here to get people onto the site to by TVs and treadmills. We're making the difference between profitability and non-, some of these quarters. They don't want to mess that up by instituting policies that would require adding a substantial number of well compensated staff to KDP.


----------



## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

This thread is seriously depressing. Here I thought Leonard Wibberley's daily KENP numbers were decent (1500 per day on a good day)...until I saw a 15-year-old doing better. 63K KENP per day! Holy cow!

I have a KU account. If someone wants to PM me some links to these egregious click-baiters, I'll be happy to report.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

And here I thought that Amazon was all knowing and all seeing, what with their ability to tell you how many pages you read and pay authors for how many pages were read in a month. I thought they had the whole big data thing figured out. How else could they pay an author for the number of pages read, right? They _had_ to have a way to calculate how many actual pages were read by actual people.

Right

I mean, they set up this brand new system of payment for KU. A reader reads your whole book? You get paid for the whole book. A reader reads only half? You get paid for those pages only. This would reward good books, right? Books that pleased readers? Those authors whose books pleased the most readers would be All Stars!

Except, no.

Turns out Amazon DOESN'T know how many actual pages actual readers actually read. It only knows the last page you were on before you stopped. It ASS-U-MEs that the reader actually read those pages in between the start and place where you "stopped reading" and I say that loosely. It doesn't know how you got to that place where you "stopped reading" just that you got there.

What a great system!

To scam...

As soon as the scammers figured it out, they unleashed the scambooks.

Got 30 erotica works that no longer earn much in KU 2.0? Simple: bundle them up, throw in a few novels, a few translations, and put the TOC at the back and a link so that the reader HAS to click to the back of the volume to read the advertised story. BAM. Full read in KU. Full payout. Some of those books were tens of thousands of pages long and netted their scammers $50+ per scam-read. Put a link to the back of the eBook and a contest, and readers would click to the back and BAM. Full KU payout. Put a riddle with the answer at the back, or an urgent message, or a chance to win a Kindle, or some other trick, and BAM. Full KU payout. Become an All Star. Scam Amazon.

Scamazon.

I WAS going to write a series for KU but until they figure this out, I'll stick with writing novels for all platforms and stick with getting paid for my books. Sure, I might not be able to make it into the top 100 ranks because of all the KU books, or top the search engines because of the scambooks with keyword stuffed titles, but at least I will get paid real money and will know what that money is at the time the book sells rather than finding out after the fact and from a ever-shifting pot, a lot of which goes to line the pockets of scammers.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> Scamazon


This wins the thread.

It's not about who is at fault, it's about who can stop it. There is only one place that can stop it: Amazon itself. They seem incapable of doing so. They use a sledgehammer and do not even appear to have a sledgehammer licence. They aim the sledgehammer at the wrong people and the wrong process.

Seriously did anyone ever TRUST Amazon? How many ways are there to spell Stockholm Syndrome?

They, and Google, are going to have to employ real people to check books to stop the scamming/plagiarism. They are going to have to ditch KU or invest tech into determining what people *really* read. Otherwise it will bite them in the place they'll feel it: the hip pocket.

In order to have something good, you need decent product. In order to have decent product, you need to invest in quality control. Invest in real product, and you will have loyal customers. Wait--that's what we're doing, with our mailing lists. And they (all companies, not just Amazon) are doing everything to pull that control away from us.

All I can say is: let's not allow them to do that.


----------



## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

PJ_Cherubino said:


> I am pulling my books out of KU as soon as the 90 days are up. My WIP will never see KU.


If you want to pull your books out sooner, you can try emailing Amazon, explaining why you want out now. I did that at the beginning of March, providing links to the DT books. I got a reply from someone from the Executive Customer Relations -

_"My name is [name redacted] with Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing Executive Customer Relations. Your message requesting to to remove your book's from the KDP Select program because of publishers including links directing customer to the back of their book was brought to my attention. I wanted to reach out to you personally and let you know that we don't allow content that is disappointing to our customers because content published through KDP is held to the high standards customers have come to expect from Amazon. I can assure you that if a publisher includes links in the book, we expect those links to enhance the customer's reading experience. With that in mind, we are actively investigating each book published by the authors that include those sorts of links and taking the appropriate actions."_

He wanted me to call them if I had additional concerns, but I just emailed back, saying that I still wanted my books out. Hours later, I received another email -

"._..Additionally, I have requested our team investigate the book you called out. If we find that the links do not enhance the reading experience we will take the appropriate actions. Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns_."

Hopefully, they would do the same with other authors who request their books be taken out of KU/Select and give the reason why. I'm no big-seller, or even a decent-seller, so it's not like they did this to keep me sweet.


----------



## VEVO (Feb 9, 2012)

This would make for a good news article if any reporters want to investigate.

Washington Post?
New York Times?
Publishers Weekly?
TechCrunch?
Engadget?



kerris said:


> *Further proof of this scam:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sela wrote a good post about this:



Sela said:


> And here I thought that Amazon was all knowing and all seeing, what with their ability to tell you how many pages you read and pay authors for how many pages were read in a month. I thought they had the whole big data thing figured out. How else could they pay an author for the number of pages read, right? They _had_ to have a way to calculate how many actual pages were read by actual people.
> 
> Right
> 
> ...


----------



## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Forgive me if I'm missing something at the posted link, but I don't see hard proof in the three screengrabs that those individuals are engaging in some sort of KENP manipulation. I can see how that conclusion could be drawn, given the circumstantial pieces of available information, but I think the evidence would have to be absolute for a reporter to get involved. Obviously the current KU system has significant problems, but I would make sure the case(s) are 100% open and shut. 

Nick


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

There seems to be the need to point out 2 things.

1. They capped the KENPC number for any book. 

2. They are currently going after books with the TOC at the rear, and rejecting them.

Might be slow to react, but react they are.


----------



## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

And when the person in that screenshot talks about his "mentee" - very reminiscent of internet marketing.  When internet marketers figure out how to be good scammers, they make even more money by charging people to mentor them and lead them through their systems step by step.  

Since Amazon doesn't pay for 60 days - maybe they'll catch some of these people and the people won't get paid for all of their efforts.

The reason this makes me really angry is, there's a limited amount of money in the KU pot, and when someone creates a deliberate scam, they're stealing from the rest of us.


----------



## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

How could we find more of these scammers and report them?  I think it would be worth the effort.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Tons and tons of these books are live in the KU system. In a few cases individual books have been flagged and placed under review but the account is still live. 

Which means these scammers will be getting payouts again this month because their account was not banned. Unless something is done, the pot will once again be diluted and the scammers in KU will 
gleefully steal our hard earned dollars. 

Amazon needs to stop this now and pay us for back earnings that were given to these scam "publishers"!


----------



## Guest (Mar 13, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> There seems to be the need to point out 2 things.
> 
> 1. They capped the KENPC number for any book.
> 
> ...


It's not enough.

Amazon has to know whether or not a page has been read, and until then or they change the system, KU is a joke.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Well from what I'm seeing on other author boards, a lot of writers are pulling out of KU. The consensus is not anger at the scammers, it's disappointment and loss of trust in Amazon.

More and more people are reporting that they are having a really hard time earning any money in KU2. A lot of these writers are categories like Western Romance or Regency Romance. Seriously, search "Cozy Mystery" or "Duchess Romance" on Amazon. You will get pages and pages of results like these...

*Cozy Mysteries: Title : Women Sleuths Detective Mysteries Murder Mystery Clean Romance (Sweet Romantic Mystery)

ROMANCE: Title: (Historical Regency Military Romance) (Scandalous Duke Historical Aristocracy Short Stories)*

Also, their rankings and ratings are usually awful. There's been a lot of speculation that real readers aren't even reading these. That these scammers are simply borrowing one another's books and clicking the links in them. A ring of people doing this, could easily net each other in the "click-ring" thousands of dollars a day .

People are speculating that millions of dollars are being leeched from the payment pool by the scam artists. Remember, too all of this isn't costing Amazon one red cent. That Kindle money is a fixed amount that was already budgeted and set aside. We have no idea how many Kindle subscribers there are. So for all we know KU is a huge windfall for them.

Also the click-baiters have to buy subs to do this. So Amazon still profits. The people who are suffering are the writers. Because we've been reduced to fighting for money in a pool over actually getting paid for a sale. Why should Amazon settle for a lousy 30% per book sale? When they can budget money aside - and then make authors fight for it "Hunger Games" style?

Also, please, please do not lump legitimate short and long form erotica writers into this. As a former erotica writer, I can tell you that the erotica and erotic romance community was hard hit by both KU2 and this latest scandal. Even some of the most popular authors in the genre are really struggling now.. we are flooded by the scammers. Those with strong mailing lists are coasting by.. but it's tough right now.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

TimothyEllis said:


> There seems to be the need to point out 2 things.
> 
> 1. They capped the KENPC number for any book.
> 
> ...


The scammers have already switched up methods. The TOC at the back, was just ONE method of scamming. The issue is, Amazon really can't count the number of actual pages read. All you have to do is have some compelling reason to get a reader to click a link to the last page of the book.

Also, the scammers are subbing to KU and clicking one another's book. So even with the KENPC payout limit that's $13 per click. They are bragging about this stuff all over social media and aren't the least bit shy about it.

This is all because Amazon lied to the author community about how KU2 really worked. But scammers being the ultimate opportunists, figured out Amazon was lying and a way to capitalize on it.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

This is a dead horse. 

Whats the point of continually posting new threads with the same old tired arguments?

Send your posts to Amazon. Make them actual complaints. 

Flogging a dead horse here achieves nothing.

I sent my argument for restricting links to Amazon, pointing out it was just a programming issue. Send your ideas as well.

But threads complaining about KU are getting old and tiresome, and very pointless.


----------



## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

I have a pen name series just for KU. Between that one and my main name, I had two releases recently. One at the end of Feb and one at the beginning of March. Even with two new books, I'm down on AMZN. My income from my wide books are up at every other vendor. My books were buried under pages and pages of scams. Without the visibility and 30 day push, what's the point of keeping a romance series in KU anymore? 

Amazon will never "do the right thing" in this situation. They can't even be troubled to pull these books/ban the accounts. I checked again this morning and KU is still clogged with scam books released just a few days ago. The only thing to do at this point is for authors to remove their legitimate books from KU--especially the hard hit genres like romance--and tell AMZN we don't appreciate being taken advantage of.


----------



## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I agree with Tim on this one. Dead horse, I've sent a few things to Amazon to point this out when my wife found some links in books she was reading. I have yet to have come across one myself.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

I'm a newb who'd learned enough in the last month to decide to wide with my debut novel. But even still, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on anything exciting, and I'm almost finished with a UF novella I was going to test in KU. Think I'm going to hold off on that till this is sorted out.

That said, I assume this situation is making it just as hard to find books for everyone, not just KU members.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

It only took me about three seconds of trying to do research to "write to market" to find my first one.

Furthermore, I re-enrolled in KU as a reader for this very purpose a few days back, and I'm going to cancel my subscription and request a refund, with links to examples and an explanation of the poor reader experience.

Typically I'm not a fan of duplicate threads either, but the title of this one is the one people need to see.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

i write too said:


> Well I reported a KU All star author who is putting her books in contemporary romance. She is padding her books with erotica or romance stories. She also has her books in 16 categories and has links to click on every page. (That's a new one, I've never seen someone add a link after every chapter).
> 
> The first story is in English, the next two stories are in Dutch. That's all in the sample.
> 
> ...


It appears that reporting to KDP is not enough. One author who did it got a reply that essentially said, it was impossible for an author to get paid unless each page was read - which we know is BS!

Send your complaint to Jeff himself and perhaps that will get it to the attention of those that need to see it.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

i write too said:


> Maybe it would make more sense to link to the interview he did on youtube with DK. *I have the link but I don't know if it's ok to post it. *


When people are making claims like this it's on them to post the link. Post it. If it gets taken down later, at least some people will see whether it was scaremongering or true. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but seriously, people, LINK or don't expect to be believed!)

For the record, I'm so over KU and am migrating most of my books out until it's fixed!


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

KittKatt said:


> I really think they need to go back and evaluate approximately what was paid to scammers. And put that in a fund. And then pay those of us in KU for what we should have gotten.
> 
> Yeah, it would be a lot of work and money on their part. But if they say they will pay for page reads than that is what they were supposed to do.


This post shows a disturbing sense of entitlement. There are many posts in this thread that show a disturbing sense of entitlement.

Is Amazon's system flawless? Of course not.

Are there flaws that are being exploited? Yes.

Is Amazon working to fix them? That seems to be the case.

Can it fix them overnight? No.

Did folks who are exploiting Amazon's flaws receive visibility and payouts that would otherwise have gone to authors who did not exploit Amazon's holes? Sure.

But Amazon doesn't owe anyone here anything retroactively. When you joined KU, you were told you would be paid for each page read of your books.

You *have been* paid for each page read of your books.

Review your contract. What promise made *directly to you as a participant of KU* has been violated? Point me to the precise section making the broken promise.

Contracts are there for a reason.

Let me clarify a couple things lest someone misconstrue what I'm saying... I'm not saying KDP Select and/or KU is good or bad. That's a personal choice that should only be made after weighing the pros and cons of exclusivity.

Nor am I saying Amazon hasn't made mistakes. But those mistakes - at least the ones described in this thread - don't violate the explicit terms of the contract you "signed" when you joined KDP Select and opted to stay in KU.

If this fiasco prompts you to abandon KU, godspeed. If it makes you disinclined to trust Amazon or join KU, that's your choice (and maybe a good one given your circumstances).

But put the torch and pitchfork down. Unless you haven't received payouts for *recorded* pages read, Amazon is meeting the terms of the contract you signed with it upon joining KU.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

HSh said:


> When people are making claims like this it's on them to post the link. Post it. If it gets taken down later, at least some people will see whether it was scaremongering or true. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but seriously, people, LINK or don't expect to be believed!)
> 
> For the record, I'm so over KU and am migrating most of my books out until it's fixed!


A moderator already said on the other thread.. NOT to post any links or names.

And seriously.. no one's lying. I saw the video myself. It's not rocket science to find.. nor is it an outlandish claim. This is a well known scam that's ALL OVER YOUTUBE.

Just search "Kindle Publishing" on Youtube.. these videos come up by the tons. The worst of the lot has the initials DK.


----------



## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

Amazon has had nothing but failures with the whole KU fiasco.  Any system they devise will be scammed. Let people go back to buying books, like the good old days...


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

OK, I didn't see that warning.  I gave up reading that thread ages ago.  

Will do the search, thanks.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

HSh said:


> OK, I didn't see that warning. I gave up reading that thread ages ago.
> 
> Will do the search, thanks.


You might want to take a few calming breaths before watching any of those! LOL... they can really make you angry. I reported them to youtube a while ago.. nothing was done about them. *shrugs*


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

KeraEmory said:


> It only took me about three seconds of trying to do research to "write to market" to find my first one.
> 
> Furthermore, I re-enrolled in KU as a reader for this very purpose a few days back, and I'm going to cancel my subscription and request a refund, with links to examples and an explanation of the poor reader experience.
> 
> Typically I'm not a fan of duplicate threads either, but the title of this one is the one people need to see.


Excellent!

Just as an aside one of the folks selling these scam courses and making bank claims (in his Amazon profile) he is an honest, transparent marketer teaching people how to build a business. What a joke!


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> This post shows a disturbing sense of entitlement. There are many posts in this thread that show a disturbing sense of entitlement.
> 
> Is Amazon's system flawless? Of course not.
> 
> ...


A disturbing sense of entitlement?

Sorry if you feel that being paid properly for one's work is a sense of entitlement.

Amazon said they would pay everyone in KU for page reads from a pool of money. In essence the money would be distributed based on legit page reads.

BUT that is not what has happened. Some of that pool of money along with KU Bonuses has been paid to people who did not have legit page reads. As a result this lowered the income for those in KU.

How wanting to earn what was promised in exchange for honest work is a sense of entitlement is beyond me.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

KittKatt said:


> A disturbing sense of entitlement?
> 
> Sorry if you feel that being paid properly for one's work is a sense of entitlement.
> 
> ...


No to mention that the scammers have systemically lowered the amount of the payouts and taken All Star Bonuses. Or that Amazon told authors that skipping to the end of the book would NOT result in a full pages read. Author's aren't idiots and I know for a fact, several authors asked their Amazon reps about this very scenario, right after KU2 was announced. They were told, that Amazon was counting actual page reads. And assured that skipping to the end wouldn't result in a full payment.

Those threads are buried on this site -- and I'm much to lazy to dig and find them.


----------



## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

So how is a minor able to create an account?

I didn't know my SS number until I was in College because it was used for everything.

His parents are going to see that $ in their account since (I don't think) a Minor can have an account by themselves.

Tax time will be interesting in that household.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Merged as the story of the teenager is being discussed in both threads.

Sorry for any confusion.  PM me if you have any questions.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> This post shows a disturbing sense of entitlement. There are many posts in this thread that show a disturbing sense of entitlement.


Forget the disturbing sense of entitlement. It still astounds me the people posting here and crying about scammers stealing their money still don't understand how the KU pot actually works.

*Amazon will pay you what Amazon deems they want to pay you; nothing more, nothing less.* They will continually add to the pot as much as they need to get to that point. It doesn't matter if there are one scammer earning a cent from that pot or five billion scammers earning five billion. You, and me, and all of us, are getting .04-cents a page read BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MUCH AMAZON WANTS TO PAY US, just like how they decided $1.30 was how much they wanted to pay us per borrow in the last KU iteration.

Why is this concept so difficult for some of you to understand?


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Claire Ryan said:


> A while back, *I was working on a side project - an ebook discovery engine based on community-curated keywords.* I didn't have the skill to make it work effectively at the time, but now I'm wondering whether I should go back to it :/ If a book's relevancy to a genre is determined by the community alone, these scammers would crash and burn.


Perhaps a pooling of resources can accomplish what a lone individual cannot. Another KBoards member, Alexis Radcliff, was working with a software developer on a similar project last year for community-tagging fantasy books. What are your ultimate goals, what steps have you accomplished so far to meet them, and what skills do you need? Alexis, or her developer buddy, or other KBoards members might be able to pitch in, because it looks like the outrage sufficient motivation to fix Amazon's book search incapabilities is on hand.



> I cannot BELIEVE that Amazon missed this


I, too, am *stunned* that Amazon promised to pay KDP Select authors by the page for eBooks borrowed and read in KU and KOLL, yet they didn't update the Kindle software sufficiently to actually make this happen. I want to say it _can't possibly_ be true, that Amazon's software development and management _can't_ be that incompetent, or uncaring, or ignorant that these scams would come about, but it appears we have enough evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

new_writer said:


> Why is this concept so difficult for some of you to understand?


Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand, that whatever the pot, some of these scammers are getting Kindle All Star bonuses on top of their ill gotten gains? Maybe you're fine with seeing the kids who cheated on the test be awarded student of the month in addition to getting an undeserved A+, but many of us are not.

When I see an Amanda Lee or a Hugh Howey get a top earner award, I know they earned it through good stories and having an engaged following. That's inspiring to me. Some punk who has figured out to how copy and paste together a couple of pamphlets and then upload it a hundred different ways getting the same reward ... just a bit less so.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone who defends the scammers. Either you have a reason to be biased or you're trying to 'win' a particularly strange/pointless online argument. 

I contacted Amazon today and asked for a refund of my month's KU subscription (purchased a few days ago), explaining the reasons and referring them to my borrow/page read history (where it's clear I wasn't able to find a real book with casual browsing of my chosen subgenres). Since I'm not a KU author, this is the best platform I have to complain. I also asked if there was a better/more appropriate place for me to send feedback about the KU reader experience.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

new_writer said:


> Forget the disturbing sense of entitlement. It still astounds me the people posting here and crying about scammers stealing their money still don't understand how the KU pot actually works.
> 
> *Amazon will pay you what Amazon deems they want to pay you; nothing more, nothing less.* They will continually add to the pot as much as they need to get to that point. It doesn't matter if there are one scammer earning a cent from that pot or five billion scammers earning five billion. You, and me, and all of us, are getting .04-cents a page read BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MUCH AMAZON WANTS TO PAY US, just like how they decided $1.30 was how much they wanted to pay us per borrow in the last KU iteration.
> 
> Why is this concept so difficult for some of you to understand?


Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I can't believe how many people are letting their butts hang out over this right now. 
I can't get mad at the "scammers" when the real scam is paying less than half a cent per page read. Authors should be doing everything they can to make sure they get what's theirs from such a disgusting system until it goes away. Can't even believe the number of people so happy to bend over and take it from one of the world's biggest corporations. Nah. Their could be only 8 books enrolled in the entire program and Amazon will still keep lowering their rates. It's not what they *can* pay, it's what they know you'll take.

Tell Amazon to better work on their search function if you don't like keyword stuffed titles. 
Tell Amazon to get actual erotica categories and an actual adult filter instead of a dungeon if you don't like category stuffing. 
If you don't want stuffed books in the KU program, leave KU and let Amazon know you are leaving because *their system* is flawed.

Kindle Unlimited is a complete failure and people need to start getting on Amazon's case to drop it. It's Amazon who's scamming you, freak out at them, they're the ones stealing from you, not the people who were smart enough to hustle this mega corporation when they saw the huge, glaring flaw. Amazon only wants your books to make money and to completely take over the Ebook market, they don't care about "fairness", they don't care if you can put food on the table, they don't care that they've practically made the value of an ebook ZERO, they just want to be the biggest and their using all of us to get there.

Honestly, go hard, "scammers". I'm rooting for you! Take em for all their worth until KU is dead.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Why is it a binary thing? Why can't people be upset with both Amazon and the scammers, as most are? It's not one or the other. Amazon created a crap system. Scammers are scamming. Both parties stink on ice.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Meanwhile, since KU isn't actually going to go away, how about if we blame the scummy scammers for being scummy scammers instead instead of chanting "burn it all to the ground!"?


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> Meanwhile, since KU isn't actually going to go away, how about if we blame the scummy scammers for being scummy scammers instead instead of chanting "burn it all to the ground!"?


I really don't think they're the ones who are scummy. ALL OF US should be doing everything we can to maximize our payouts.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

ishouldbewriting said:


> *I really don't think they're the ones who are scummy.* ALL OF US should be doing *everything we can* to maximize our payouts.


The plot thins.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

ishouldbewriting said:


> I really don't think they're the ones who are scummy. ALL OF US should be doing everything we can to maximize our payouts.


No, we shouldn't.

Lots of people will see the system as a means justify their own corruption, but that doesn't make it right.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> The plot thins.


I put out a quickly written and practically unedited novel every few weeks to pay my bills while the erotica I write and care about very, very much goes wide. Used to be able to pay ALL my bills with erotica, but the new KU really ****ed that up for erotic authors. So, if that's what I gotta do to survive in this business then that's what I gotta do. I'm not keeping it a secret. I don't care to put any internal links in it, but I absolutely respect the hustle of those who do. If I'm not going to get paid for the work that has worth, I'm still going to make sure I get paid.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

ishouldbewriting said:


> I really don't think they're the ones who are scummy. ALL OF US should be doing everything we can to maximize our payouts.


Wow. Just wow. Situational ethics much?

I'm taking a wild stab that shoplifting from Walmart is OK too, because Walmart.

Nope. The one thing I can control in life is what I do. My integrity as a writer and a person isn't for sale. It doesn't matter what somebody else can get away with. People got away with making the mortgage industry and the economy crash, too. They got away with it because the system was flawed.

They were wrong. They did wrong.


----------



## ChristinaGarner (Aug 31, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> Wow. Just wow. Situational ethics much?
> 
> I'm taking a wild stab that shoplifting from Walmart is OK too, because Walmart.
> 
> ...


THIS.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> I'm taking a wild stab that shoplifting from Walmart is OK too, because Walmart.


I'm sorry you think it's stealing. It's just being paid by the page  It's a system Amazon purposefully set up. They didn't plug the holes and so it's their fault that it's now leaking out everywhere. If Walmart left a giant open box of socks sitting in the middle of the highway saying "take a pair", you know, I might just take two. If they were worried about it, they would have made sure their box only dispensed one pair of socks at a time. They didn't. And they pushed the free socks really hard....

Amazon is the one who's stealing. Amazon is the one who decided that shorter works, that once got 1.30, or even a full 2.0whatever, are now only going to get paid pennies. Amazon is the one who decided that more pages = more money no matter what's on those pages. Amazon is the one tying to push other retailers out of the way so they dominate the ebook market to take advantage of us further.... yeah, sorry, but no matter how hard I try, I just can't feel bad for taking that extra pair of socks. Especially since they already took my jacket and my bra and my watch off me.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Maybe there will be a riot somewhere and you can loot a store. Hey, the window's smashed. Merchandise is just sitting there.

You make me sad.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

KittKatt said:


> Amazon said they would pay everyone in KU for page reads from a pool of money. In essence the money would be distributed based on legit page reads.
> 
> BUT that is not what has happened. Some of that pool of money along with KU Bonuses has been paid to people who did not have legit page reads. As a result this lowered the income for those in KU.
> 
> How wanting to earn what was promised in exchange for honest work is a sense of entitlement is beyond me.


You're making stuff up.

Here's what Amazon says about KU royalties:

"_You're eligible for royalty payment from Kindle Unlimited (KU, or Abonnement Kindle in France) and the Kindle Owners' Lending Library (KOLL) for pages an individual customer reads in your book for the first time._"

Here's what Amazon says about KU within the publishing dashboard...

"_You'll be paid for each page individual customers read of your book, the first time they read it."_

You can FEEL as if the above means something else. But that's little more than emoting. Amazon said you'll be paid for each page read. It did NOT say "_we guarantee to meet your standard of fairness and will insulate you from actors who try to game our system._"

The reason I'm bringing this point up is that you and select other posters have opined that Amazon is a scam, Amazon owes you back pay, and consequently there may be a class action lawsuit in the making.

If you don't know how contracts work in the context of liability, say so.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Monique said:


> Maybe there will be a riot somewhere and you can loot a store. Hey, the window's smashed. Merchandise is just sitting there.
> 
> You make me sad.


RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT because writing a generic, quick, [crappy] romance novel that I know will get me some quick page reads to pay my bills, or even a person linking to the back of their book so they actually get paid for the whole thing (does McDonalds get paid by the fry?) is exactly, absolutely 100% akin to rioting and looting. And I make you sad? Do you people even listen to yourselves anymore? You'd think people were killing dogs or something.

I can't feel bad about people taking advantage of a system that was designed, from the get go, to take advantage of US!

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

You're taking advantage of your fellow authors, too. But I think you know that and just don't care. That's what makes me sad. There's talk of entitlement on this thread and - yowza - that's it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Moderator stepping in here.

Let's remember to keep it civil with future posts. I can see this going bad rapidly. Please remember that not every post has to be responded to. Also note that posts designed to inflame are against Forum Decorum and that members who continue to make posts designed to inflame may find themselves on post approval or receiving a posting timeout or worse.

I'm going to be leaving in a few minutes for a birding trip along the Mexican border and won't have access, I don't think. Please keep it civil or Ann is likely to lock the thread when she gets back online. And I'll be sad.

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Monique said:


> You're taking advantage of your fellow authors, too. But I think you know that and just don't care. That's what makes me sad. There's talk of entitlement on this thread and - yowza - that's it.


Amazon is the one who decides the "pot" that we're suppose to be paid from. Amazon is the one who adds to the pot every month to bring it up to what they want to pay us. I'm not the one taking advantage of authors. That's Amazon. If you're upset with a low payout (and honestly, we all should be) please direct your anger toward the people who decide in advance what you're going to be paid. Authors are not stealing from authors, but they've done a pretty good job pitting us against each other to distract from it.


----------



## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

thewitt said:


> Amazon has had nothing but failures with the whole KU fiasco. Any system they devise will be scammed. Let people go back to buying books, like the good old days...


Yes. I wish it were so. This whole mess is depressing. I _was_ going to put my new serial in KU but now I'm not. I need to learn how to go wide anyway. Might as well be now.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

If you're scamming the system, you are scamming your fellow authors. Amazon is also to blame, but that does not absolve the scammers. Justify it all you want, I think deep down you know it's wrong.


----------



## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Amazon is the one who decides the "pot" that we're suppose to be paid from. Amazon is the one who adds to the pot every month to bring it up to what they want to pay us. I'm not the one taking advantage of authors. That's Amazon. If you're upset with a low payout (and honestly, we all should be) please direct your anger toward the people who decide in advance what you're going to be paid. Authors are not stealing from authors, but they've done a pretty good job pitting us against each other to distract from it.


Scammy authors _are_ stealing from other authors. They're stealing All Star bonuses and driving away KU customers with their low-quality "books". They're clogging up the lists and searches, and preventing other authors' books from being seen.

Anyone who takes advantage of anything--a big corporation, peers, or even the store clerk (who you may never even see again) that accidentally gave you back too much change--is wrong. I don't see how anyone can justify behavior that lacks integrity.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Monique said:


> If you're scamming the system, you are scamming your fellow authors. Amazon is also to blame, but that does not absolve the scammers. Justify it all you want, I think deep down you know it's wrong.


There are many people (as much as 3% of the US population) who DON'T "get" the concept of right and wrong. To them, anybody who doesn't get everything they can is stupid. I write suspense, so I find those folks fascinating and study them a lot. They're pretty much train wrecks in life, because, well, they don't really care about anybody else or have a conscience, but again, that doesn't bother them. I suspect many of these people are among the scammers.

There are other people who wouldn't pick up the money if an armored car overturned, because losing their integrity wouldn't be worth that money. I know which kind of person I'd rather be, because they tend to have better friends. I guess we know when we're put to the test. I hope I would pass but can't say for sure. I suppose the struggle is what I think life is about.

For me, it wouldn't be worth it to write a crappy book for money, because it would be giving up something that means a lot to me. But people do this for all sorts of reasons, so I guess I can't be surprised.

Book material. Which is what I always try to think when crappy stuff happens.

Excuse the philosophizing. I happen to be writing a book now about this topic. About what people will and won't do for money, and whether having a lot of money is worth it, if it compromises other things in your life.

"Take what you want, and pay for it, says God." Spanish proverb. Perhaps apropos.


----------



## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

It's (the pot) divided by (all page reads) times (your pages read), right? So every scammer drives down the price of every honest worker (increase all page reads). And as Allyson says, drives down the perception of KU. If people think of KU and think 'that's where people dump their crap', it's no good for anyone except those looking to make a quick buck before moving onto the next hussle.

And really, someone above - wow, LOTS of stores put their product outside. No one expects people to steal it just because they can. Trust is the most basic cornerstone of civilisation.


----------



## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

JR. said:



> And as Allyson says, drives down the perception of KU. If people think of KU and think 'that's where people dump their crap',


Funny, I had a friend tell me today that he pulled out of KU because all he could find to read was crap. So there you go.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> There are many people (as much as 3% of the US population) who DON'T "get" the concept of right and wrong. To them, anybody who doesn't get everything they can is stupid. I write suspense, so I find those folks fascinating and study them a lot. They're pretty much train wrecks in life, because, well, they don't really care about anybody else or have a conscience, but again, that doesn't bother them. I suspect many of these people are among the scammers.
> 
> There are other people who wouldn't pick up the money if an armored car overturned, because losing their integrity wouldn't be worth that money. I know which kind of person I'd rather be, because they tend to have better friends. I guess we know when we're put to the test. I hope I would pass but can't say for sure. I suppose the struggle is what I think life is about.
> 
> ...


Tis true. There are people who don't get it and don't care. I think far more are depressed, feel rejected and when they see a chance to "get some of their own", they go for it.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

I posted earlier that I'd contacted Amazon to get a refund for my KU subscription, purchased a few days ago, and I explained why.

(Quick backstory--I am NOT a KU author, I'm not even published yet, but I was trying to use KU for 'write to market' research and finding nothing but click-scam books and BBW bears.) 

I got the refund, they didn't comment on my concerns nor direct me to another place to send feedback.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, let's not make psych assessments of others.  A discussion of the "scam" and Amazon's reactions are appropriate and on topic.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Woooh, Ros and Monique, all this thread has shown me is that people are totally fine with, and maybe even a little bit eager, to get pooped on as long as everyone gets pooped on. If you're interested in questionable human behavior, maybe you should be studying *that*. 
I'm not alright with being pooped on, so if that makes me a 3% of the population type of sociopath, who doesn't know right from wrong, who has no friends, who has a train wreck of a life, sad, depressed and rejected.... then so be it, I guess? A lot to assume of someone who just wants to continue paying their bills with their art like they've been doing for years... Super weird to be seen as SCUM because I need to put food on the table so my family can eat because AMAZON completely turned the market upside down.... but of course you weren't suggesting that, right? Since that would be wildly inappropriate...

Until Amazon fixes THEIR mistake, I need to do what I got to do! I'm going to continue spitting out poorly written romance novels, I am going to continue bundling them up for more page reads and I'm going to continue making money. Yes, I know... sooooo evil, right? 

People are only utilizing the system Amazon so kindly set up for us. Don't take it personally and pull your books from KU if it bothers you so much. By enrolling your books, you're approving of this system!


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

*Sigh* I'm more depressed by my some of my fellows authors comments, than I am by any scammer.  But I'm not surprised. Some don't want to accept this happening and it actually effects their earnings.  Other's are jumping on board for the cash grab, which is causing more crap books to flood certain categories. 

*shrugs*

I'm going to avoid KB for a while and just get back to work. I have faith that there are now lots of readers looking for good quality reads in their categories. These folks are willing to pay full price -- and don't care if a book is in KU or not. That's where the real opportunity is folks. It may be a little harder.. but it's a better long term goal. 

Going to work now.. editing and writing to do. I suggest those of us who are trying to rebound just focus on quality customers who want to buy not borrow.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I earned a record amount in January without changing what I'm writing or taking shortcuts, so there actually is another way to pay one's bills under the current system. I think what's getting missed here is that people still are borrowing and buying regular, non-scammy novels in KU and out of it--it's just harder to find them. I'm guessing it'll get fixed soon, and I'm thinking we'll hear the same kind of upset from people whose accounts are blocked and whose earnings are NOT deposited as we heard from that guy on the YouTube video I saw posted somewhere, who was so upset that his 135 books were frozen in a single day due to the scammy links. 

One can't write short erotica and make a killing in KU anymore as many people did for a short period before, but I'm surprised anybody expected that to continue. It wasn't an entitlement. It was a perhaps natural development from Amazon paying the same price for anything from a 10-page short to a 600-page novel, but it wasn't sustainable. Neither is this. 

What IS sustainable is writing books, of whatever length or whatever type, that people want to read, so I will now turn off the internet and return to that. My best to all those also working hard to write books that people want, books that they'll still want in a year, because they're fun or thought-provoking or exciting to read. Just like they are to write.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> I earned a record amount in January without changing what I'm writing or taking shortcuts, so there actually is another way to pay one's bills under the current system.


Same here. I managed to (just barely) make the all star list in January without any of these shenanigans. At the same time, nobody owes me a living. I have to earn it and that means working as hard as I can and putting out the best stories I can.


----------



## KittKatt (May 4, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> You're making stuff up.
> 
> Here's what Amazon says about KU royalties:
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, I DID NOT say Amazon was a scam. No where did I say that.

I said I feel the pot has been diluted due to the individuals scamming Amazon's system. And Amazon's system is flawed. I do believe we were and are being paid less because of it. And that bonuses have gone to the scammers. These are things I believe.

I personally feel and if you look back at my prior posts you will see that I stated that I feel Amazon wants a good customer experience and I do not feel that Amazon is out to deliberately cheat authors. I am also not sure why you mention a "class action lawsuit". That is not even something I have considered or mentioned.

I love Amazon and I appreciate the opportunity to write and put my book in the Amazon system. It just is currently not working and I would like to see it corrected.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Urban Mogul said:


> I'm going to avoid KB for a while and just get back to work. I have faith that there are now lots of readers looking for good quality reads in their categories. These folks are willing to pay full price -- and don't care if a book is in KU or not. That's where the real opportunity is folks. It may be a little harder.. but it's a better long term goal.
> 
> Going to work now.. editing and writing to do. I suggest those of us who are trying to rebound just focus on quality customers who want to buy not borrow.


I do both, buy and borrow. Majority of readers its not an either or. But at the moment, I can't find either of them. Even non KU books are drowning in a sea of garbage. Because those scamfests show up everywhere. I can't buy a book if I can't see a book.

Best chance is if I already know you. But good luck for a new author trying to find readers, especially in the romance categories, which happens to be my favorite genre. Its also the favorite of the scammers to pile on to.

What this has done to me and I am sure many other readers, it has driven us back to so called gatekeepers. Be it sticking with known authors, known publishers, library or email ads. There is less browsing and less discovery.

I thankfully for now have a wishlist of KU titles that is 300 books long. I could just stick with those for now. But as a long time reader, it has always been fun to browse, to find new stuff on my own. KU or not. Not anymore.

I love the idea of KU as a reader and if I had to, I could just resort to reading nothing but amazon published items, Montlake, Mercer, etc. I so hope though they fix it. Or at least limit the wave. For all of us, writers and readers. KU included or not. The scammers are ruining the complete kindle store. They are ruining my favorite genre. It makes me angry.


----------



## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Gator said:


> Perhaps a pooling of resources can accomplish what a lone individual cannot. Another KBoards member, Alexis Radcliff, was working with a software developer on a similar project last year for community-tagging fantasy books. What are your ultimate goals, what steps have you accomplished so far to meet them, and what skills do you need? Alexis, or her developer buddy, or other KBoards members might be able to pitch in, because it looks like the outrage sufficient motivation to fix Amazon's book search incapabilities is on hand.


I'm sorry to have missed that post when it first came out. It looks similar to something I was doing in book discovery for SFF books. The main stumbling block if you're going to crowdsource is getting consistency: my version of "violent" isn't the same as everyone else's, and the same with descriptions like "epic length" "pacy", "funny", "light" and so on. The crowd might find a balance, though.

Quite a few recent attempts to build discovery engines have fallen on their face lately. However, that was before these problems with KU, which changes the landscape considerably. I don't think the technical problems are insurmountable. I also don't think Bookbub-style curation is the answer, when that itself relies on new authors surfacing with some visibility in order to get some reviews that "qualify" them for a newsletter feature.

I love the idea of a tagging system for book discovery that doesn't belong to Amazon.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> I earned a record amount in January without changing what I'm writing or taking shortcuts, so there actually is another way to pay one's bills under the current system.
> 
> One can't write short erotica and make a killing in KU as many people did for a short period before, but I'm surprised anybody expected that to continue. That was a short-term loophole that some authors benefited greatly from, and I get that it feels hard to have it taken away if you did somehow expect it to continue.


I haven't changed what I'm writing, I just now have to write extra. My shorts weren't in KU to begin with until the sales started to dry up... the direct result of borrows devaluing what once had value. Amazon decided to further devalue the market by paying less than half a cent per page read, so my only option was to write more pages. More pages, according to whoever thinks so, devalues all the other pages, so, what?? What? What exactly comes next? Anyone who thinks KU will ever work is dreaming..... in fact, anyone who thinks that KU is anything but a tool being used to push out other retailers is completely blind. May as well take advantage of it while it's still here. 

I remember when the change happened, ADAPTING was talked up quite a lot. If you want to make money, you gotta adapt to the new system! So I did. Apparently that makes me one of the 3% of the population that can't differentiate from right and wrong and just an all around scummy person, haha.

Congrats on the great January. I also had a great January.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Super weird to be seen as SCUM because I need to put food on the table so my family can eat because AMAZON completely turned the market upside down.... but of course you weren't suggesting that, right? Since that would be wildly inappropriate...
> 
> Until Amazon fixes THEIR mistake, I need to do what I got to do! I'm going to continue spitting out poorly written romance novels, I am going to continue bundling them up for more page reads and I'm going to continue making money.


Respectfully, but if you really have NO other skills that will allow you to "put food on the table" than running small-time internet scams, this would probably be a good time to acquire some. The bottom will be falling out of this one soon, and you yourself were earlier hoping that KU dies. Sounds like you became reliant on a VERY transient source of income.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Amazon Kindle publishing has become a get-rich-quick scheme for some. They don't care about pleasing customers. They care about scamming customers. They have figured out the system -- appropriate covers, blurbs, keywords, titles, and they have written or hired out a ghost written story they can put up front and then they have stuffed the book with dozens of erotica shorts. They have then used scam tactics to get a full page read in KU without the pages actually being read. 

The how-to videos on Youtube are clear on this. This is the same crew who did the whole derivatives scam on Wallstreet except on a smaller scale. It's still a scam, anyway you look at it and those who do it -- for whatever reason -- are scammers, period. 

They have no respect for writing, they have no respect for readers, they have no respect for publishing. They only respect results and money. They want something for nothing. 

They are not providing anything of value except to themselves. 

Amazon MUST get control over this scam to rehabilitate the program. In my view, Amazon should get rid of KU altogether. It's been one scam after another.

What they have done is open publishing up to everything and they let the reader sort through the dross and the algorithms sort through dreck. I guess it costs too much money to have real eyeballs check each book published on Amazon (4000 a day) and so Amazon leaves it up to the customer to complain to get things stopped or changed.

In my view, to rehabilitate the KU program -- if Amazon is not going to jettison it -- there should be some kind of limits placed on what is put in KU at the least. 

1. No boxed sets larger than say 6 full length novels by a single author or an equally long number of shorts / mixed shorts and longer works but by a single author.
2. For special collection of authors -- maybe 9 full length books. Their KENP cap, in other words. 
3. No links at the front of the book. Period. No contests. 
4. Table of contents that cannot be scammed. 
5. No more stuffed titles. If the words in the title do not appear on the cover, they cannot go on the product page. 

Optimally, all works should have to be either reviewed by a real person or put through some kind of automated review process / software to look for links at the front, that look for repeat material from the same author and look for scam material, such as Spanish translations or Dutch translations. 

I hate KU and have made no bones about it. However, I was trying to face the reality of its continued existence and adapt. What I will not do is compromise my own ethics and resort to scamming readers in order to make an unearned and undeserved buck. I got into publishing because I love to read and love to write. I want to write works that move and please my readers. I have done that to the best of my ability and guess what? I am making close to mid-six figures in income. I have many many happy readers who wait for my next book and send me fan mail.

KU scammer will scam. 

I'm going to keep on writing the best quality books I can that will please my loyal readers and grow my audience and increase my income.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

So many keyword stuffers are regular posters here on KB, too. They don't give a crap.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> Respectfully, but if you really have NO other skills that will allow you to "put food on the table" than running small-time internet scams, this would probably be a good time to acquire some. The bottom will be falling out of this one soon, and you yourself were earlier hoping that KU dies. Sounds like you became reliant on a VERY transient source of income.


Thanks for your suggestion! But I've been making money with my writing since long before KU and will still be here long after it's dead and buried. 
"small time internet scam" my @#$%^ing a**. I've just decided that if Amazon is going to create a program so flawed, I'm going to do whatever I feel like to take advantage of it. 
Just ridin' the wave, sister.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

When this wave crashes, you're going to wish you knew how to swim.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Monique said:


> When this wave crashes, you're going to wish you knew how to swim.


Is it my years and years in this business that suggest I don't 
Is it my growing ever growing collection of erotica that's finally reaching pre-KU levels of earnings wide that suggests that I don't? 
The fact that I'm comfortably on my boat with "scammy" romance does not mean I've forgotten how to swim, just means I don't have to deal with wet feet for a while.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

All you have done is complain that the only way to make money is to churn out crap. This leads me to believe you can't do anything else, i.e. swim.

If you're a scammer when this implodes, your paycheck will disappear. If you're just churning out self-proclaimed crap, all you will be left with is a pile of crap. 

One is stinky, the other is just short-sighted and selfish.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Is it my years and years in this business that suggest I don't
> Is it my growing ever growing collection of erotica that's finally reaching pre-KU levels of earnings wide that suggests that I don't?
> The fact that I'm comfortably on my boat with "scammy" romance does not mean I've forgotten how to swim, just means I don't have to deal with wet feet for a while.


If you have years in the business, yet can't make a decent living as an author without writing scammy romance? That says something about your writing chops.

Scammers are using trick links at the front that take the reader to the back, bypassing tens of thousands of words of erotica that the customer doesn't want and won't read along with Spanish translations and other material not advertised so they can get money they have not earned, thus taking it away from other authors who have material that is _actually_ read.

They have to look at themselves in the mirror each day. The fact that they can without feeling shame and guilt says a lot.

ETA: edited after I read a few posts.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

KeraEmory said:


> I also asked if there was a better/more appropriate place for me to send feedback about the KU reader experience.


[email protected]


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Thanks for your suggestion! But I've been making money with my writing since long before KU and will still be here long after it's dead and buried.
> "small time internet scam" my @#$%^ing a**. I've just decided that if Amazon is going to create a program so flawed, I'm going to do whatever I feel like to take advantage of it.
> Just ridin' the wave, sister.


Life can definitely be easier without a sense of ethics. In some ways, anyway. But thanks for making things suck a little bit more for readers and other authors in your crusade "against Amazon".


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Is it my years and years in this business that suggest I don't
> Is it my growing ever growing collection of erotica that's finally reaching pre-KU levels of earnings wide that suggests that I don't?
> The fact that I'm comfortably on my boat with "scammy" romance does not mean I've forgotten how to swim, just means I don't have to deal with wet feet for a while.


You're a new and anonymous poster defending scammers. There is nothing about you that suggests you have any credibility. You're the message board equivalent of a fart in the wind.

(Can we say "fart" here?)

(Apparently yes, we can say "fart" here. Good to know.  )


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

SevenDays said:


> (Can we say "fart" here?)


I believe the proper scientific term is "toot."


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Monique said:


> All you have done is complain that the only way to make money is to churn out crap. This leads me to believe you can't do anything else, i.e. swim.
> 
> If you're a scammer when this implodes, your paycheck will disappear. If you're just churning out self-proclaimed crap, all you will be left with is a pile of crap.
> 
> One is stinky, the other is just short-sighted and selfish.


On Amazon, KU is king. You're absolutely right that I cannot survive getting something stupid like 12cents a short. I can't. I want those page reads, so on Amazon, I totally am churning out crap I don't care about for that sweet, sweet 0.0041 a page. Wide? My erotica is doing well enough. I continue to produce short erotica and I always will. That is my art. If need be, I've finally gotten back to a point where it can pretty much take care of everything with some pinching. Disaster will not strike me twice.
With all due respect, Monique, but you don't know any of my pens, so you have no idea what sort of quality I produce. You have no idea how long I've been in this game. The only thing you know is that I write crap romance and put it in KU. I do. I totally do. I stuff keywords in my titles. I add an extra book or two to the back of the book. I edit as I go and then throw it out there to make me money.
I'm literally Hitler, I get it. 
If you want a fairer system, pressure Amazon for a fairer system, but don't pretend like it was other authors who are ruining it, when it's AMAZON who've set the system up like this.

But whatever! I'm off to get some more work done on one of my "scams".


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Me


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

new_writer said:


> *Amazon will pay you what Amazon deems they want to pay you; nothing more, nothing less.* They will continually add to the pot as much as they need to get to that point. It doesn't matter if there are one scammer earning a cent from that pot or five billion scammers earning five billion. You, and me, and all of us, are getting .04-cents a page read BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MUCH AMAZON WANTS TO PAY US, just like how they decided $1.30 was how much they wanted to pay us per borrow in the last KU iteration.
> 
> Why is this concept so difficult for some of you to understand?


In addition to what Rick said about bonuses, how do you know the above?

Sure, it's _possible_ that Amazon wanted to pay KU authors .0041/page and would've paid that exact amount no matter how many pages were read. Possible, but also just a guess, on your part. Equally possible: Amazon had hoped to pay .0046/page, but the jump in page-reads meant hitting .0046 1) seemed too expensive, given budget pressures, or 2) was perceived as unnecessary, on the rising-tides-lifts-all-boats theory, and so they shaved some off.

I'm certain Amazon runs KU at a loss. There's no way they're anywhere near breaking even at $119.88/year for a membership. So they have to decide, month to month or in some longer-term way, how much of a loss they're willing to take to sustain KU. It's possible that they planned out a _.0058 > .0051 > whatever_ progression back in the summer and are simply sticking to the plan, pumping enough money into the pool to meet their payout goal. But it's also possible that they're deciding the payout on a monthly basis, taking the program's growing/shrinking library, author feedback, and total page-reads into account.

In the absence of insider info, anyone who assumes they know how Amazon decides what to pay for a page-read is not thinking clearly. You don't know. None of us know. It's possible the scammers have had no effect on the worth of a page-read; it's also possible they have.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

SevenDays said:


> (Can we say "fart" here?)


Yes. And you can get away with flatulence, too!


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Gator said:


> Yes. And you can get away with flatulence, too!


I believe a well crafted fart joke has the power to change lives.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Hitler? No. Mussolini? Maybe. 

You've said you're scamming and putting out crap to put food on the table, that implies you aren't making money elsewhere. Since you are anon, all I have to go by is what you've said. 

I'm not the one pretending, you are. Why I don't know.

I've been vocal about my dislike of KU from the start and have told Amazon about it just as I've reported scammers (in and out of it) that I come across. The world might be simpler if it were the black and white one you profess to see, but it just isn't. Amazon isn't the big bad and the res of us are mere victims. They do plenty of things that stink on ice, and so, apparently, do you.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Gator said:


> Yes. And you can get away with flatulence, too!


I *totally* heard that, Gator.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It's the ones you can't hear that you really have to worry about.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Silent, but deadly.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Until Amazon fixes THEIR mistake, I need to do what I got to do! I'm going to continue spitting out poorly written romance novels, I am going to continue bundling them up for more page reads and I'm going to continue making money. Yes, I know... sooooo evil, right?


There's nothing wrong with putting out poorly written romances and bundling them, if that's what you want to do. Either readers will find those works satisfying, and you'll get page-reads, or they won't, and you won't. Fair enough.

But if you're doing this click-and-jump-to-the-end thing, you're taking a big risk for short-term grade. If your publishing account gets banned, you won't get another under your own social security number.



Monique said:


> It's the ones you can't hear that you really have to worry about.


OMG yes. Like dog farts. THE WORST.


----------



## TheLass (Mar 13, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> But if you're doing this click-and-jump-to-the-end thing, you're taking a big risk for short-term grade. If your publishing account gets banned, you won't get another under your own social security number.


I don't see Amazon banning anyone for something they say can't happen.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> On Amazon, KU is king. You're absolutely right that I cannot survive getting something stupid like 12cents a short. I can't. I want those page reads, so on Amazon, I totally am churning out crap I don't care about for that sweet, sweet 0.0041 a page. Wide? My erotica is doing well enough. I continue to produce short erotica and I always will. That is my art. If need be, I've finally gotten back to a point where it can pretty much take care of everything with some pinching. Disaster will not strike me twice.
> With all due respect, Monique, but you don't know any of my pens, so you have no idea what sort of quality I produce. You have no idea how long I've been in this game. The only thing you know is that I write crap romance and put it in KU. I do. I totally do. I stuff keywords in my titles. I add an extra book or two to the back of the book. I edit as I go and then throw it out there to make me money.
> I'm literally Hitler, I get it.
> If you want a fairer system, pressure Amazon for a fairer system, but don't pretend like it was other authors who are ruining it, when it's AMAZON who've set the system up like this.
> ...


You sound like an angry young wo/man. You sound as if you are really angry at Amazon for the way it has affected your income over the years, especially the way it treated erotica. I take it that you are at base an erotica author who was hurt by KU, KU 1.0 and now, you are going to take Amazon for what you can in KU 2.0 by writing what you consider are "scammy romance" works that you don't care about.

How sad that you feel that way about your work. I don't feel that way about my work. I try to do the best I can with my books because I really want my readers to love them. I also understand that they are works of fiction and are fantasy wish fulfilment but I don't disrespect my readers just because they like to escape in the fantasy worlds I create. You sound as if you have no respect for your readers and consider your books "scammy". That is truly sad.

I get that you place the blame on Amazon and not on the scammers, who are only trying to feed themselves and their families.

The thing is this: scammers hurt all of us. They hurt your business. Amazon responded to scammers who were scraping material off the net and getting the KU 1.0 payout after one page was read. That wasn't a fair system to authors with full length books that had their full book read, and Amazon recognized this. Readers were not finding the books they wanted in KU and so were complaining. KU 2.0 was a partial fix, but obviously had its own flaws, which the scammers found and exploited.

I get that the transition from KU 1.0 to KU 2.0 really hurt a lot of short fiction authors. I agree it sucked. I think KU SUCKS LARGELY AND SHOUD DIE. However, there was nothing stopping legitimate erotica authors from bundling erotic shorts and selling them that way. If they had readers, why not bundle and sell bundles for a full KU 2.0 read at novel-lengths? If your readers liked your work, they would read the bundle from beginning to end and you would get a full payout.

Look. I don't like KU at all. I think we should get paid for our product when it is purchased, period. If the reader is dissatisfied with the product, they can return it. That should be good enough. Books that are marketable will flourish and those that have no market will sink into oblivion -- the way it should be if the algorithms worked properly.

I love that Amazon exists, because it has provided me and thousands of other authors the chance at a decent income writing for a living and for that I will always be appreciative of Amazon.

That said, I also hate Amazon for some things it does and the way it acts. I agree that Amazon often acts in a heavy-handed manner towards authors / suppliers. It's often ham-fisted when it attempts to deal with problems, hurting authors in the process who were innocent, like this most recent flawed attempt to stop scammer by taking books off sale due to TOC at the end of the book. It seems they can't get a clue about the real problem and lash out in a knee-jerk manner.

That lack of decency on Amazon's part towards authors does not justify an author treating their readers with disrespect and scamming the system. Period.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> There's nothing wrong with putting out poorly written romances and bundling them, if that's what you want to do. Either readers will find those works satisfying, and you'll get page-reads, or they won't, and you won't. Fair enough.
> 
> But if you're doing this click-and-jump-to-the-end thing, you're taking a big risk for short-term grade. If your publishing account gets banned, you won't get another under your own social security number.
> 
> OMG yes. Like dog farts. THE WORST.


No, I'm don't use "click here for special prizes" links or whatever. SURE i will agree that those people, promising something that they have no intention of ever doing good on, are scammers.

Things I don't think are scams but other people seem to: Keywords in titles, bundling, adding a novel or two to the back, a "Click to the back for my mailing list" link or any click to the back link that isn't misleading (TOC, authors notes, link to author page).... Maybe it started as those specific "WIN A TV" scammers, but the people here seem to think that ANYTHING taking advantage of the system that was set up for us is a dirty scam done by scum.

Amazon was the one who set up this sh***y system for us. That's their fault. I just can't see how others are blaming authors for using something to their advantage. At less than half a cent a page, I can't believe that others are discouraging people from trying to get PAID.


----------



## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> I *totally* heard that, Gator.


Pardon me, folks. (I hadn't really noticed, since I've been holding my nose while I read about these stinkers.)


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Selena_Kitt said:


> Thanks for that. I've been writing in erotica since before it was a "thing."
> 
> I write legitimate books to entertain readers. I also put together legitimate erotica bundles by legitimate erotica authors.
> 
> ...


I separate out those who did what they did thinking it would not result in a full read out vs. those who specifically instituted practices that they KNEW would result in a full payout. It sucks that your rep lied to you. I hope you don't get swept up in Amazon's usually ham-fisted clean up.

I hated KU from the get-go because I was wide and doing well and didn't like exclusivity on principle. I saw my sales get cannibalized by KU 1.0 when I was in and the small payout was not enough to make up the difference because my books are higher priced than the average indie romance novel. SO KU 1.0 was just bad news for me. I didn't want to start writing short because I knew my readers preferred long works. It turns out that I was right. That's why we got KU 2.0

Scammers will always exist, true. That does not make it right to scam. Amazon is a huge heartless business. That doesn't make it right to scam it.

But I do understand the anger and frustration some people have felt towards Amazon over KU. I do. However, scamming Amazon out of anger is really just cutting off their nose to spite their face. If someone makes bank scamming in the short term, when the conditions change and the scam no longer works, they have to think up a new scam. In the end, they are nothing but a scammer and have to live with themselves.

I couldn't. As much as I get angry over Amazon, I want to have something real for all my hard work -- something I can be proud of. A big bank account attained by being a scammer is not something of which I could be proud. I want to be a legitimate author with a loyal readership. I want to write books that my audience loves.

In the end, I will have a real business as a romance author with loyal readers. The scammers will have nothing but a string of scam businesses all of which have to be shut down and started up again under new names, businesses, and pen names etc. They may end up with more money in the bank than me, but they may also end up being broke because they may also be the kind of person who takes more risks and falls flat on their faces eventually.

I think in the end, I will be the one who comes out in better shape. I will have a catalogue of books of which I can be proud and a strong business and an audience who is waiting for my next book.

The scammers will live in infamy.


----------



## Mopsy (Jan 4, 2015)

What happens if a reader reaches the end of the book but then goes back to an earlier chapter before syncing? Does this register as a full read? If not, that's the real problem. Let's be realistic...most people aren't getting All Star Bonuses & the page payout has nothing to do with the pot. The scammers are hurting everyone.

How?

My friends call KU "Krap Unlimited" and one of them now shops at Apple and says she won't come back until there's a way to filter out KU books. I feel the same way, but won't badmouth the store to customers, so I keep my mouth shut. Here we're all writers and can talk openly. When you search for anything, it's pages of useless krap. How awful for the legitimate authors drowning in this mess. Thank God I'm in wide distribution. It does start to look like Amazon is encouraging bad behavior.


----------



## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Gator said:


> Pardon me, folks. (I hadn't really noticed, since I've been holding my nose while I read about these stinkers.)


This thread reminds me of the lost star trek episode where Kirk fought the stink beast of flatulon 5. The episode only aired once.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> No, I'm don't use "click here for special prizes" links or whatever. SURE i will agree that those people, promising something that they have no intention of ever doing good on, are scammers.
> 
> Things I don't think are scams but other people seem to: Keywords in titles, bundling, adding a novel or two to the back, a "Click to the back for my mailing list" link or any click to the back link that isn't misleading (TOC, authors notes, link to author page).... Maybe it started as those specific "WIN A TV" scammers, but the people here seem to think that ANYTHING taking advantage of the system that was set up for us is a dirty scam done by scum.
> 
> Amazon was the one who set up this sh***y system for us. That's their fault. I just can't see how others are blaming authors for using something to their advantage. At less than half a cent a page, I can't believe that others are discouraging people from trying to get PAID.


I really don't understand why you are so upset at those of us who are angry at the real scammers. If you are not doing the click to the back scam, then WTF are you so angry at US for? We are not condemning you.

Sure Amazon set up this shi**y system. Sure authors should try to understand and OPTIMIZE their works to use Amazon's system to get the full benefit of their organic discovery engine. Not abuse it.

There is a difference.

You're conflating use and abuse; optimization of the system and scamming the system. Not us.

We accept the one and condemn the other.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Sela said:


> I get that the transition from KU 1.0 to KU 2.0 really hurt a lot of short fiction authors. I agree it sucked. I think KU SUCKS LARGELY AND SHOUD DIE. However, there was nothing stopping legitimate erotica authors from bundling erotic shorts and selling them that way. If they had readers, why not bundle and sell bundles for a full KU 2.0 read at novel-lengths? If your readers liked your work, they would read the bundle from beginning to end and you would get a full payout.


I chose to go wide with my erotic work, because I didn't want something I actually cared about to be trapped on Amazon making pennies while held hostage by exclusivity. But it's funny you should mention the bundles of erotic shorts, because that is what people were calling the ORIGINAL SCAM. Read back on the boards, here or anywhere, and you'll see people blaming bundles of erotic shorts for all of KU's shortcomings. It was erotic shorts in KU1 and erotic bundles in KU2, and only very recently have people been b****ing about things other than erotica. It's a long thread, but I'm sure if you read over everything, you'd find some posters saying things like "their stuffing their books with _EROTICA_!" or "they're including _BONUS EROTIC SHORTS_ to eat up all my page reads!" People hate erotica, so no one really sees erotic bundles as legitimate, especially when paid by the page. You're right though, there's money to be made if people want to make erotic bundles, I just think it's funny you bring it up because that is one of the "scams" people here hate.

I'm not angry, I just don't translate well on the internet, I guess.


----------



## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

ishouldbewriting said:


> ...because writing a generic, quick, [crappy] romance novel that I know will get me some quick page reads to pay my bills...


I'm no expert, but maybe this is part of the problem about why you can't sustain your income? If your romances are "crappy" (by your own admission) then I would think you constantly need a new audience. I imagine there wouldn't be much sell through if people read one, agree with you that its crappy and don't bother to ever pick up another book you have written. That must be an exhausting treadmill to be caught on.

Personally I'm writing the kind of romances I like to read. I want to build my readership. I only have 3 books out but they make me 4-figures a month. I plan to grow that amount as I grow my catalogue, my mailing list, and my followers. I invest in my books because I want readers who will stick with me and who will buy each new release - that approach is generating the income to pay my bills.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Sela said:


> I really don't understand why you are so upset at those of us who are angry at the real scammers. If you are not doing the click to the back scam, then WTF are you so angry at US for? We are not condemning you.
> 
> Sure Amazon set up this shi**y system. Sure authors should try to understand and OPTIMIZE their works to use Amazon's system to get the full benefit of their organic discovery engine. Not abuse it.
> 
> ...


I really think you should read this whole thread, and then all other threads on this board about "scamming" and what exactly the people here think "scamming" is. Keywords in titles, extra books, anything they personally think is poor quality... it's not just links to the back of the book. "Scam" has been shouted around here for longer than the back linkers have been back linking. Using Amazon's system to your advantage even a little bit is considered a scam around these parts. So no, you, as a group, do not accept one and condemn the other. If "WIN A KINDLE" links were the only think we're talking about, there would be no disagreement but that obviously hasn't been the case.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

ishouldbewriting said:


> I chose to go wide with my erotic work, because I didn't want something I actually cared about to be trapped on Amazon making pennies while held hostage by exclusivity. But it's funny you should mention the bundles of erotic shorts, because that is what people were calling the ORIGINAL SCAM. Read back on the boards, here or anywhere, and you'll see people blaming bundles of erotic shorts for all of KU's shortcomings. It was erotic shorts in KU1 and erotic bundles in KU2, and only very recently have people been b****ing about things other than erotica. It's a long thread, but I'm sure if you read over everything, you'd find some posters saying things like "their stuffing their books with _EROTICA_!" or "they're including _BONUS EROTIC SHORTS_ to eat up all my page reads!" People hate erotica, so no one really sees erotic bundles as legitimate, especially when paid by the page. You're right though, there's money to be made if people want to make erotic bundles, I just think it's funny you bring it up because that is one of the "scams" people here hate.
> 
> I'm not angry, I just don't translate well on the internet, I guess.


You're not getting it. People are complaining when authors add erotic shorts to books they label "clean regency romance."

I have to say after reading your posts, you're straw-manning your way through this thread.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Ava Glass said:


> You're not getting it. People are complaining when authors add erotic shorts to books they label "clean regency romance."
> 
> I have to say after reading your posts, you're straw-manning your way through this thread.


He/she also claimed about an hour ago to be leaving to go write.

But yeah, the story is slowly changing now.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> You're not getting it. People are complaining when authors add erotic shorts to books they label "clean regency romance."
> 
> I have to say after reading your posts, you're straw-manning your way through this thread.


I am getting it, thank you. If you're not going to read all the posts on "this is a scam" this board and it's posters are so famous for, then that's up to you.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TheLass said:


> I don't see Amazon banning anyone for something they say can't happen.


Good point ... if they felt they needed to justify bans. They don't. We're all selling on the platform at their pleasure, and they can jerk the rug out anytime without explanation.



ishouldbewriting said:


> Amazon was the one who set up this sh***y system for us. That's their fault. I just can't see how others are blaming authors for using something to their advantage. At less than half a cent a page, I can't believe that others are discouraging people from trying to get PAID.


I think it's a matter of degree, with some gray areas. When KU1 prompted a revival of serialization (a 19th century literary form), I thought that was brilliant and innovative. Was it designed to take advantage of the flat payment scheme Amazon set up? Yeah, sure. But so? It was totally fair, IMO, to take advantage of a payment system that was clearly designed with very little forethought in Amazon's rush to get out front and crush Scribd and Oyster. Book pages show estimated length. Readers who didn't like stories serialized in short installments could avoid them, one-star them, whatever.

But the scamlets ... that was different.

Same thing with KU2. If you manage to write longer/write more in a way that readers enjoy, that's fair, even if the product feels padded to you. You say your romances are "poorly written," but that's quite subjective. If readers are reading them, then the books are _good_, by that measure, even if you personally think they're bad. Bundling is fine. If someone reads the book they intended to buy and discovers, surprise!, there are four more books by the same author included after it ... well, they're not going to read those four books if they didn't like the one they just finished, eh? You get paid for the additional books at the back only if people want to read them.

If you're collecting the same old five books over and over at the beginnings of twenty different bundles, counting on five skipped-over books to inflate your page reads, that's different.

I do agree that this mess is Amazon's fault. Because there will always be ne'er-do-wells. Always. Systems need to be designed with omnipresent ne're-do-wellery in mind. Heck, this is a company that wants to send people into space. If I were a space tourist, would I put my life into the hands of a company that cannot competently design a book subscription service? I don't think so. And their reaction is to ban TOCs at the ends of books?!? It beggars belief, given how many other kinds of jump-to-the-end links the scammers are using. Talk about ineffectual. It feels very much like uninformed flailing around.

They need people. KDP needs a large staff of well paid, well trained people who are empowered to look at submitted files for approval/rejection and provide customized assistance to self-publishing authors, not form letters. Indie authors bring substantial income Amazon's way. We deserve a commitment of company resources commensurate with the profit we produce.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> I chose to go wide with my erotic work, because I didn't want something I actually cared about to be trapped on Amazon making pennies while held hostage by exclusivity. But it's funny you should mention the bundles of erotic shorts, because that is what people were calling the ORIGINAL SCAM. Read back on the boards, here or anywhere, and you'll see people blaming bundles of erotic shorts for all of KU's shortcomings. It was erotic shorts in KU1 and erotic bundles in KU2, and only very recently have people been b****ing about things other than erotica. It's a long thread, but I'm sure if you read over everything, you'd find some posters saying things like "their stuffing their books with _EROTICA_!" or "they're including _BONUS EROTIC SHORTS_ to eat up all my page reads!" People hate erotica, so no one really sees erotic bundles as legitimate, especially when paid by the page. You're right though, there's money to be made if people want to make erotic bundles, I just think it's funny you bring it up because that is one of the "scams" people here hate.
> 
> I'm not angry, I just don't translate well on the internet, I guess.


Yeah, you come off as angry. 

I have nothing against erotica or bundling erotic shorts. I think that the complaint is that the product page advertises one type of fiction and then the volume is filled with another.

For example, I might be into were bear billionaires but I might not be into BDSM erotica. I see a volume advertised as a were bear shifter volume and I borrow it in KU and find that it is stuffed with BDSM erotica that I don't like. It wasn't advertised. It's truth in advertising.

Now, if I WANTED BDSM erotica, and liked it, and it was advertised as such, I'd be like, HEY SCORE! and would read them. I have no problem with that and the publisher getting paid for all the pages read -- legitimately.

If people actually read books, short stories, novellas, erotica -- whatever -- I am all for the author/publisher getting paid for those pages read.

Fair is fair.

The whole issue is people getting paid something for nothing. And I mean, getting a full payout for a book that is stuffed full of material not advertised on the product page and which the customer has not read but which registers as being read due to the scam links that take the reader to the back. _That_ is what people don't like. Not erotica bundles. The click through to the back scam is what people dislike.

If an author writes great erotica and has an audience, bundle the F out of it and get higher payouts -- legitimately. People may not respect erotica authors but that comes with the territory of a prudish culture. If people are actually reading the pages, I have nothing against the author receiving a full payout. What I object to is an author or should I say scammer getting a full payout due to the scam for pages not actually read.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> I really think you should read this whole thread, and then all other threads on this board about "scamming" and what exactly the people here think "scamming" is. Keywords in titles, extra books, anything they personally think is poor quality... it's not just links to the back of the book. "Scam" has been shouted around here for longer than the back linkers have been back linking. Using Amazon's system to your advantage even a little bit is considered a scam around these parts. So no, you, as a group, do not accept one and condemn the other. If "WIN A KINDLE" links were the only think we're talking about, there would be no disagreement but that obviously hasn't been the case.


You're right. I am speaking about my position and the people I have read who agree with my position. No doubt there are people who do think everything is a scam, so I am not speaking for them. Pardon me for implying that I speak for all people on kBoards. I only speak for myself and people who agree with me. I think reasonable people agree with me. Because I am eminently reasonable, if I say so myself!



Keywords in titles are fine IF the keywords are also on the cover. That's OK in Amazon's TOS.

Keyword stuffing _without_ the keywords being in the title is _not_ kosher. It gets a book to the front of the queue unfairly and is against Amazon's TOS. Those TOS are intended to ensure organic sales based on customer satisfaction and preference. Those stuffed keyword titles game the system and put books that are not chosen by customers ahead of those that have been.

Those who follow Amazon's TOS regarding titles have a right to be pissed at those who break them knowingly.

Sure, if someone does it _unknowingly_, they can be given a pass -- by me at least -- due to their ignorance, but they should beware. Amazon has been very ham fisted over these things and the innocent and guilty get swept up in the same tsunami.

Putting extra books in a volume is _not_ a scam -- IF -- they are advertised in the product description. People LOVE getting free stuff, extra stuff -- if it is material they _want_. There is nothing wrong with that.

*BUT* -- putting Spanish translations and cookbooks into romance books and THEN putting a scam link at the front with a contest or riddle or "VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE" that takes the reader to the back solely to get a huge scam payout for pages NOT actually read is a scam and should be condemned.

Those are my views and they express my thinking -- and those who agree with me. YMMV.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> Yeah, you come off as angry.


No, s/he really doesn't. It's you and the other posters that come off as angry.


----------



## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

NeedWant said:


> No, s/he really doesn't. It's you and the other posters that come off as angry.


I disagree. The other posters have all rationally explained their positions. Whereas ishouldbewriting is throwing around lots of emotive accusations.

Always interesting when a brand new poster turns up and makes a post like this....


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

AliceWE said:


> I disagree. The other posters have all rationally explained their positions. Whereas ishouldbewriting is throwing around lots of emotive accusations.
> 
> Always interesting when a brand new poster turns up and makes a post like this....


I see more emotive accusations in your posts. You seem personally outraged by what ishouldbewriting is doing and the way they make their money.

As far as being a new poster, you're free to look at my registration date (July 2015), I just never got an activation e-mail and just had it resent.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm plenty angry, though not at ishouldbewriting.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

NeedWant said:


> No, s/he really doesn't. It's you and the other posters that come off as angry.


Of course, I disagree. 

I enjoy a good debate as long as it is more light than heat. I think ishoudbewriting comes off as more concerned with the tone of the debate than the real issue because s/he doesn't want to address the real issue. It's a difficult issue, I admit. But I think we can discuss it like adults.

The issue is people getting paid for material that is NOT being read and using tricks and deceit to get paid for material that is not being read.

People getting paid for material that IS actually read is okey dokey.

But if I had my druthers, I'd nix the entire KU program.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> They need people. KDP needs a large staff of well paid, well trained people who are empowered to look at submitted files for approval/rejection and provide customized assistance to self-publishing authors, not form letters. Indie authors bring substantial income Amazon's way. We deserve a commitment of company resources commensurate with the profit we produce.


Yup and doubtful Amazon will ever do that. Those are customer service type jobs in their eyes and KDP is probably a tiny piece of their business. A few of the big selling names say their KDP reps don't really do much for them and don't have much power and that's for the big sellers.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I love this thread. It's more entertaining than most of TV.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I love this thread. It's more entertaining than most of TV.


Bosch season 2 just dropped and it's quite good!


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

AliceWE said:


> I disagree. The other posters have all rationally explained their positions. Whereas ishouldbewriting is throwing around lots of emotive accusations.
> 
> Always interesting when a brand new poster turns up and makes a post like this....


Sure, I am emotional, I am a human being. What I said is I'm not angry. If I come across like that, then I come across like that, sorry.

I would hardly say other posters have been perfectly level headed though.

After I started commenting there was a conversation about how people like me have no integrity, there was a comment that if there was a riot I would probably be out looting and stealing stuff, lots of how I'm stealing and entitled.
OH and then a conversation came up which was obviously directed at me:


> "There are many people (as much as 3% of the US population) who DON'T "get" the concept of right and wrong. To them, anybody who doesn't get everything they can is stupid. I write suspense, so I find those folks fascinating and study them a lot. They're pretty much train wrecks in life, because, well, they don't really care about anybody else or have a conscience, but again, that doesn't bother them."


and in reply to that:


> There are people who don't get it and don't care. I think far more are depressed, feel rejected and when they see a chance to "get some of their own", they go for it.


And this:


> Respectfully, but if you really have NO other skills that will allow you to "put food on the table" than running small-time internet scams, this would probably be a good time to acquire some.


 And then that same person commented back to me saying that life is probably really easy when you don't have a sense of ethics.

So, as you can see, a lot of hostility and downright RUDE, DISGUSTING behavior from some pretty regular posters here. If I was rude, then I apologize, but I just tried to defend what a lot of people are calling SCAMS. Not every single tactic you don't like is a scam.

Like I said before... If it was just the "WIN A MILLION DOLLARS" links people here were complaining about...or the cook books in mysteries, then sure, we would all be in agreement, but it's not. Read the whole thread.

And if you're implying that the person defending me was me... it's not, again, more rude, snarky, high school behavior... can't say I'm surprised. But apparently I see to be the only rude, angry and irrational person here, huh?


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> The issue is people getting paid for material that is NOT being read and using tricks and deceit to get paid for material that is not being read.
> 
> People getting paid for material that IS actually read is okey dokey.
> 
> But if I had my druthers, I'd nix the entire KU program.


I agree that using tricks is not acceptable, but I don't see anything wrong with bundling as many stories/books one can. And let's be honest, Amazon is not counting the pages. If I borrow a book and decide to click to the back, bam, that author gets paid for a full read even though I didn't read the whole book. That's Amazon's failure, not the author's.

I remember a lot of people being happy here about the 3000 page limit on bundles. That's nothing to be happy about, it only makes sure Amazon doesn't have to payout as much. If the new system is all about pages read, why is it wrong to bundle as many books as one can?

I wish we could go back to KU1. I made a lot more money back then.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

NeedWant said:


> I see more emotive accusations in your posts. You seem personally outraged by what ishouldbewriting is doing and the way they make their money.
> 
> As far as being a new poster, you're free to look at my registration date (July 2015), I just never got an activation e-mail and just had it resent.


Yes, we are angry at scammers.

ishoudbewriting appears to be angry at us for being angry at scammers.

It makes her/him seem as if s/he thinks it's okay to scam because, Amazon.

We're angry that, as usual, the scammers sh*t in the soup and it's pretty much all some of us have to eat.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> Yes, we are angry at scammers.


Define "scammers."

A lot of people here seem to think that bundling = scamming, and I don't agree with that at all.


----------



## TheLass (Mar 13, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Good point ... if they felt they needed to justify bans. They don't. We're all selling on the platform at their pleasure, and they can jerk the rug out anytime without explanation.


Good point ... if they had a history of banning accounts without justification, warning emails and reference to their TOS. They don't.


----------



## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

NeedWant said:


> I wish we could go back to KU1. I made a lot more money back then.


KU1 was great for people who wrote shorts, but it hurt those writing full length novels. KU2 and pages read was Amazon's attempt to address that imbalance. I'm sure there will be a KU3 that will introduce something else. If you're trying to game the system then you will always be struggling to stay ahead of the changes.


----------



## Ebook Itch (Mar 3, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> I earned a record amount in January without changing what I'm writing or taking shortcuts, so there actually is another way to pay one's bills under the current system. I think what's getting missed here is that people still are borrowing and buying regular, non-scammy novels in KU and out of it--it's just harder to find them. I'm guessing it'll get fixed soon, and I'm thinking we'll hear the same kind of upset from people whose accounts are blocked and whose earnings are NOT deposited as we heard from that guy on the YouTube video I saw posted somewhere, who was so upset that his 135 books were frozen in a single day due to the scammy links.
> 
> One can't write short erotica and make a killing in KU anymore as many people did for a short period before, but I'm surprised anybody expected that to continue. It wasn't an entitlement. It was a perhaps natural development from Amazon paying the same price for anything from a 10-page short to a 600-page novel, but it wasn't sustainable. Neither is this.
> 
> What IS sustainable is writing books, of whatever length or whatever type, that people want to read, so I will now turn off the internet and return to that. My best to all those also working hard to write books that people want, books that they'll still want in a year, because they're fun or thought-provoking or exciting to read. Just like they are to write.


You win this thread and the internet today. 

Making readers happy increases the size of your mailing list, and the money is in the list.

We're also getting back to work promoting and publishing quality romance.

ETA: Some wise words from one of the richest men in the world...
**9. Base Your Strategy on Things That Won't Change**

Bezos at re: Invent, November 2012:

"I very frequently get the question: 'what's going to change in the next 10 years?' And that is a very interesting question; it's a very common one. I almost never get the question: 'what's not going to change in the next 10 years?' And I submit to you that that second question is actually the more important of the two - because you can build a business strategy around the things that are stable in time&#8230;.in our retail business, we know that customers want low prices and I know that's going to be true 10 years from now. They want fast delivery, they want vast selection. It's impossible to imagine a future 10 years from now where a customer comes up and says, 'Jeff I love Amazon, I just wish the prices were a little higher [or] I love Amazon, I just wish you'd deliver a little more slowly.' Impossible [to imagine that future]. And so the effort we put into those things, spinning those things up, we know the energy we put into it today will still be paying off dividends for our customers 10 years from now. When you have something that you know is true, even over the long-term, you can afford to put a lot of energy into it.

"On AWS [Amazon Web Services], the big ideas are also pretty straightforward. It's impossible for me to imagine that 10 years from now, somebody's gonna say, 'I love AWS, I just wish it were a little less reliable.' Or 'I love AWS, I just wish you would raise prices&#8230;' Or 'I love AWS and I wish you would innovate and improve the APIs at a slightly slower rate.' None of those things you can imagine.

"And so big ideas in business are often very obvious, but it's very hard to maintain a firm grasp of the obvious at all times. But if you can do that and continue to spin up those flywheels and put energy into those things as we're doing with AWS, over time you build a better and better service for your customers on the things that genuinely matter to them."

What are the things that will remain true for your customers over the next 10 years? Take Bezos's advice and work on those things every day and it'll pay off big time. Amazon retail is always working on lowering prices, faster delivery (can you say same day delivery?). And they're probably adding new products every day.

For Netflix, their focus is on streaming because that's where the future is. So they work on increased reliability with their streaming, a bigger selection in their streaming, and better content. They know customers want all of that.

For Google, they know their customers will continue to want accurate search results and instant answers.

For Verizon Wireless, they know customers will want more coverage, faster speeds, and more reliability. No one is going to say to a Verizon Wireless employee:

"I wish my phone didn't get reception here." Or "I want a slower internet connection with my smartphone." Or "I wish there were more problems with your network."

No customer is sincerely going to say that. So every day Verizon puts their energies into improving their services.

What would your customers say to you?

Where are you putting your energy? Is it something that customers will still care about in 10 years? If not, start working on things that will matter 10 years from now. You'll have Jeff Bezos to thank.

-----------------

**8. Obsess About Customers**

"Focusing on the customer makes a company more resilient."

Jeff Bezos

At Amazon, there is a common line of thinking:

"Start with the customer and work backwards."

Bezos has mentioned many times that you focus on customer needs and then work backwards from there. In his interview with Charlie Rose, he says:

"We're not competitor obsessed, we're customer obsessed. We start with the customer and we work backwards."

When you work backwards, you start with the customer and their needs and problems. This is the opposite of what some companies do, which is: they think up ideas, build a product, and then see if customers like it.

Bezos is a firm believer that what is best for the customer ultimately turns out to be best for the business. At the 2012 re: Invent conference, he said:

"If we can arrange things in such a way that our interests are aligned with our customers, then in the long term that will work out really well for customers and it will work out really well for Amazon."

Here are a few examples of Amazon focusing on the customer, sometimes putting them ahead of Amazon's own short-term returns.

-------------------

**5. Think Long Term**

If you can know only one thing about Bezos, it should be that he thinks long term.

Once, when asked about Amazon's revenue growth, Bezos couldn't even remember the exact growth percentage, something rare for a CEO. When asked why he didn't know, he said:

"I'm thinking a few years out. I've already forgotten those numbers."

Amazon retail has been around since 1994. Remember those computers and the very early days of the internet? Bezos knew back then that people would be buying products off of it. He has said that those days were some of his most difficult. He was trying to raise $1 million to get Amazon off the ground. But getting that $1 million was incredibly difficult. He said he talked to 60 people, and 22 people gave him $50K.

Why was it so difficult? People didn't know what the internet was. Bezos said "the first question most of those [investors] had was 'what's the internet?'" Think about that - most people didn't know what the internet was. Bezos did, and he knew people would be buying products off of it. That's his vision and long-term thinking at work.

Is there anything today that most of us are not aware of but Bezos is already planning on? Stay tuned.

Obviously, thinking long term requires a tremendous amount of patience. This is especially true when you're the CEO who needs to also focus on day-to-day operations. And it requires you to be misunderstood for long periods of time. It's part of building something new.

Bezos says that "me-too companies have not done that well over time." So you need to invent and be willing to be misunderstood. Because all disrupters are inventors. And me-too companies are not inventors.

Indeed, he often recognizes this with Amazon: A9 was a me-too of Google, Auctions was a me-too of eBay, etc. When asked if they're going to get into brick and mortar, Bezos has said:

"One of the things we don't do very well at Amazon is a me-too product offering. So when I look at physical retail stores, it's very well served, the people who operate physical retail stores are very good at it&#8230;the question we would always have before we would embark on such a thing is: What's the idea? What would we do that would be different? How would it be better? We don't want to just do things because we can do them&#8230;we don't want to be redundant."

He also says that long-term thinking and experimentation needs to be a fundamental ingredient of the company:

"You need a culture that high-fives small and innovative ideas and senior executives [that] encourage ideas. In order for innovative ideas to bear fruit, companies need to be willing to "wait for 5-7 years, and most companies don't take that time horizon."

Thinking long term and not being obsessed with quarter-to-quarter finances is:

Good for customers, as we see with the example of Amazon's $25 shipping. It doesn't make sense if you focus only on near-term returns when you plan to be around for the long term.
Good for the company, because you can be more open to innovation if you think and focus on the long term.
Avoiding doing something early on because it's bad for short term is bad strategy. Some things won't pay off right away. Focus on the long term and you'll have better results. Short term is a poor predictor for long term.

"If we think long term, we can accomplish things that we couldn't otherwise accomplish."


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

NeedWant said:


> Define "scammers."
> 
> A lot of people here seem to think that bundling = scamming, and I don't agree with that at all.


It's weird how you guys keep ignoring repeated attempts to explain to you the specific gist of the thread.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Hi regular posters!  Try the ignore feature!  It's awesome!    Especially on the T word users who don't exist.


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> Define "scammers."
> 
> A lot of people here seem to think that bundling = scamming, and I don't agree with that at all.


Quote these posts--in context too--and show us that they're not talking about mislabled bundles, bundles full of translations or other junk, or "click to the back" links.


----------



## ishouldbewriting (Mar 3, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> I just noticed something when I was going through my catalog to switch all my TOC to the front.
> 
> (Note: I'm not a scammer. I just followed the advice to put the TOC in the back and have clean and minimal front matter for the look inside.)
> 
> ...


So a link to the "about the author, newsletter, coming soon" is bad now? See this is exactly what I've been talking about this whole thread. A link to things that should be linked to are perfectly OKAY! If someone clicks on it and it takes them to it, THEN GOOD, that's how it's suppose to work! If someone skips to the last chapter through the TOC, is that going to start being a scam now too?? Second last? Middle of the book? Should we just get rid of TOC all together in case someone accidentally flips to the back? It's not bad, kid!

See what I mean when I say people think that EVERYTHING might just count a scam on these boards? Like come on, this is getting a little excessive.

Absolutely BULL that there are authors worrying about this type of crap, when it's Amazon's own flawed system causing the trouble. If they have so much trouble counting page reads, then maybe they shouldn't have a system based on page reads.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

This thread is about scammers who brag about scamming the system. Maybe another thread could be made for people who are just mad at Amazon and need to vent?


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

There seems to be two camps. Those who care more about their own profits than the reader's experience v. those who care about the reader's experience and realize how that maximizes their profits.

This thread is starting to feel more painful than a fissure. 

I don't think anyone is saying that box sets or bundles are scams. I think what has been said--numerous times--is that baiting the reader with one story, then loading in everything plus the kitchen sink is a scam. Loading keywords (in the category section) isn't scamming; loading irrelevant keywords in title/subtitle is scamming.

Those who find no fault in gaming the system won't have their opinions changed. They want to be paid, and they'll do whatever it takes to achieve those means.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> Quote these posts--in context too--and show us that they're not talking about mislabled bundles, bundles full of translations or other junk, or "click to the back" links.


I don't have either the time or the will to be looking for all the examples. Just search for that thread announcing the 3000 page limit for payouts and read all the posts of glee.


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

NeedWant said:


> I don't have either the time or the will to be looking for all the examples. Just search for that thread announcing the 3000 page limit for payouts and read all the posts of glee.


Not even one example from this thread?

If not, why be in this thread?

This is the thing that's confusing for people like me who are new. This thread is about a pretty clear-cut scam. From the outside, it looks like a couple of you are mad about past injuries of some sort, and therefore it's making you happy that people are upset about the *actual* scams. That's a little bit messed up.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

ishouldbewriting said:


> Sure, I am emotional, I am a human being. What I said is I'm not angry. If I come across like that, then I come across like that, sorry.
> 
> I would hardly say other posters have been perfectly level headed though.
> 
> ...


Okay I agree that there were some comments that came off as very hostile.

Here's the thing:

You did write this: "Honestly, go hard, "scammers". I'm rooting for you! Take em for all their worth until KU is dead."

So you may not _be_ scamming, but since you want KU to fail, you are saying HAVE AT IT SCAMMERS!

That's nihilism.

I hate KU, too. In fact, I wager you and I could mentally arm-wrestle over which one of us hated KU more. 

I understand your position but I don't think it does anything but line the pockets of people who do have questionable ethics. Amazon will remain unscathed. It's the readers and authors who do not scam who suffer.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> This is the thing that's confusing for people like me who are new. This thread is about a pretty clear-cut scam.


I don't see anyone defending actual scams here.



> From the outside, it looks like a couple of you are mad about past injuries of some sort, and therefore it's making you happy that people are upset about the *actual* scams. That's a little bit messed up.


I have no idea what you're on about here. Maybe refrain from psychoanalyzing people and judge them by what they actually say?


----------



## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> I don't have either the time or the will to be looking for all the examples. Just search for that thread announcing the 3000 page limit for payouts and read all the posts of glee.


I'm looking at that thread.



Amanda M. Lee said:


> No one said bundling itself is a scam. People are referring to the scam where you sell one book and tack on 50 after it and then put a link in the front for a "giveaway" and it takes you to the back to trigger a full payout (which is often exceedingly huge). It was much more prevalent than people want to believe. There was an entire group bragging about it. Those people were cleaning up and diluting the pool. Does this fix the problem? No. It's just the first volley. The only way to fix it is have human eyes look at each book upload and to do that Amazon is going to have to hire more people and to do that they're going to have to raise more revenue, like adding a fee for each new book upload (which would also cut down on a little bit of the graft).


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

NeedWant said:


> I don't see anyone defending actual scams here.


Post 444:



> Honestly, go hard, "scammers". I'm rooting for you! Take em for all their worth until KU is dead.


This is what's kicked off the entire last couple of pages, although the OP has backpedalled a bit.

Basically, just seems like the thread has been derailed by schadenfreude/bitterness.

I'm brand new so I missed ALL of the gold rush. All I want is a reasonably even playing field where I can write books, not worry about keeping up with the latest scammy gimmick. Therefore, I am anti-gimmick. That's my position and motivation in a nutshell.

And for what it's worth, I'm not even using (or subscribing to) KU.


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Ava Glass said:


> I'm looking at that thread.


Try this thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,230396.0.html


----------



## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

NeedWant said:


> As far as being a new poster, you're free to look at my registration date (July 2015), I just never got an activation e-mail and just had it resent.


Strange co-incidence that after being registered for 9 months you decide to have your activation email resent so you can attack long standing k-board members in defence of another new poster (who hasn't posted in any other threads except this one).


----------



## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> Post 444:
> 
> This is what's kicked off the entire last couple of pages, although the OP has backpedalled a bit.


Sorry didn't see that post. I hope it was sarcasm.



> I'm brand new so I missed ALL of the gold rush. All I want is a reasonably even playing field where I can write books, not worry about keeping up with the latest scammy gimmick. Therefore, I am anti-gimmick. That's my position and motivation in a nutshell.
> 
> And for what it's worth, I'm not even using (or subscribing to) KU.


Might as well quit while you're ahead, because that stuff will _always_ be a part of this business.

The best case scenario is to find success outside of KU, because if you're in KU, be ready for a very bumpy ride!


----------



## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

NeedWant said:


> Try this thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,230396.0.html


Seems like an interesting and generally civil discussion of the 3000 limit.

Not seeing the relevance to this thread.

Believe me, I really am trying to understand your point. If it's just "Amazon sucks", fine.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Multiple reports and I'm at dinner. Will review in a bit.

_EDIT: Just realized we never updated this--after discussion, this thread has run its course and will remain locked._

Betsy
KB Mod


----------

