# What is the dividing line between YA and General Adult?



## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

A lot of the subject matter in YA books is pretty heavy.  There is often violence and frightening suspense.  So where is the line when a story becomes General Adult fiction?

What about sexual situations but without overt sex?

Literary quality of the writing?

Is Tolkien YA?  

And does YA stand for "Young Adult" or "Young Audiences?"


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I take YA as being young adult -- ready to handle more complicated prose, more adult topics.

YA usually has a younger protagonist and that's the first clue and deals often, but not always, with struggles of that age range, or complicated because of the age of the lead character.

The books can be just as serious as adult books and deal with all the same issues. One example would be Tender Morsels, which is a retelling of Snow White and Rose Red, but deals with incest and rape. Not appropriate for a young child, just the sort of topic that a teen might be interested in, or God Forbid, dealing with.

I think sex in YA has to be filtered through a sense of responsibility, but there's definitely room for those issues.


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## Cindy Borgne (Mar 21, 2011)

I've asked this question on other forums too. There never seems to be a right answer. I tend to like many books with young protagonists.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Simplest answer: it is "YA" if that is how you want to market it, meaning you feel it will mainly appeal to those who buy "YA" novels (regardless of whether or not they are actually "YA") or you specifically want to target that audience. Everything else is rationalization or suggestions to help appeal to that demographic.


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Young Adult is YA if it relates to teenagers and young adult! Lol. It's pretty broad of course but it's kind of like porn vs. erotica vs. a love scene, you know it when you see it!


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

NogDog said:


> Simplest answer: it is "YA" if that is how you want to market it, meaning you feel it will mainly appeal to those who buy "YA" novels (regardless of whether or not they are actually "YA") or you specifically want to target that audience. Everything else is rationalization or suggestions to help appeal to that demographic.


I was asking the question in general, not as an author. But that said, for authors and publishers the distinction is important because you don't want to be misleading or inappropriate. For example you can't market an R rated movie to kids. Although, ironically perhaps, since the advent of the PG-13 rating, most R rated movies are made for and marketed directly to Young Adults, between 17-25.

But that's what I'm trying to get at with this question. The designation is very vague. I don't associate Young Adult with kids, but it seems that in the book world, that's what people think as often as not. I'm just curious what the designation means to readers on an individual basis. I have a feeling there are lots of differences of opinion.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Not a lot of people know this, but YA actually stands for "You're Awesome".  It means that you're awesome for reading it.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> I was asking the question in general, not as an author. But that said, for authors and publishers the distinction is important because you don't want to be misleading or inappropriate. For example you can't market an R rated movie to kids. Although, ironically perhaps, since the advent of the PG-13 rating, most R rated movies are made for and marketed directly to Young Adults, between 17-25.
> 
> But that's what I'm trying to get at with this question. The designation is very vague. I don't associate Young Adult with kids, but it seems that in the book world, that's what people think as often as not. I'm just curious what the designation means to readers on an individual basis. I have a feeling there are lots of differences of opinion.


The comparison to movie ratings is somewhat misleading I think -- not "completely" by any means, as they do, as you say, play a part in the studios' marketing plans. But it's different in that they are implemented by a 3rd party which -- in theory anyway -- is non-partisan. On the other hand, there is no one with any official authority who can challenge an author or publisher in their claim that a given book is "YA". As you say, you do not want to alienate potential readers by grossly mislabeling the genre of any book, but on the other hand, I don't think you'll ever be able to draw anything approaching clear lines of distinction for any genre, including "YA". (And many of my favorite novels have been those that play around with the boundaries, making them difficult to classify -- and therefore often difficult to market, perhaps.)

Therefore, I personally go back to "YA" being any fiction targeted for a young adult audience, based on whatever an author/publisher thinks fits that targeting. _Generally_ speaking, I think that usually means a young adult protagonist and eschewing the use of some level of profanity and graphic sex/violence; and the definition of "some level" will be very subjective. Otherwise, the current "YA" field seems pretty wide open these days as far as subject matter and themes: not just formulaic teenage angst stories or teens overcoming stupid/evil/just-don't-get-it adults (though formulaic vampire/werewolf paranormal romance seems to be the way to go.  )


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2011)

I think it's important to note that there are really two kinds of YA books. There are the gritty, realistic ones that contend with the horrors of parental divorce/drug use/sex/bullying and so on, and then there are the paranormal and fantasy strains that have limitations cutting off a great deal of violence and sex. I'd say the common link is a teen protagonist or the like.

And to be practical about it, NogDog's assessment also hits the mark:



NogDog said:


> Simplest answer: it is "YA" if that is how you want to market it, meaning you feel it will mainly appeal to those who buy "YA" novels (regardless of whether or not they are actually "YA") or you specifically want to target that audience. Everything else is rationalization or suggestions to help appeal to that demographic.


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## KatieKlein (Dec 19, 2010)

I've yet to see a clear answer to this question.  It has to do with the age of the protagonist (but not always because Nicholas Sparks writes teen characters into some of his stories, and Prep was marketed to adults). The word count (50-75k) is shorter than adult books (but not always, because Stephenie Meyer's books were pretty long). 

I think it has more to do with the attitude toward the topic and the voice of the characters.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Here's a question that might help: is _Lord of the Flies_ a YA book, and why or why not? (I would vote for "not", but I'm not exactly sure why from any technical viewpoint.)


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> A lot of the subject matter in YA books is pretty heavy. There is often violence and frightening suspense. So where is the line when a story becomes General Adult fiction?
> 
> What about sexual situations but without overt sex?
> 
> ...


Think of YA like a teenage boy coming over to your house to date your daughter. You want your little girl to grow up and have a little bit of independence, make good choices without you making them for her, and to make up her mind about the man she will eventually marry, right? I think of YA as something like this. It's appropriate for a YA audience if you wouldn't mind your child taking it for a spin, reading it, and getting the ideas from it. You wouldn't want your teenage daughter taken to some sleazy alleyway without someone protecting her to make out behind a strip club and then walk off and leave her alone. But you do want your audience to step up, embrace a little audience responsibility, and start to think like an adult. That, to me, is a fair analogy of the YA market. Can you trust a teenager to get/make the right messages out of it.

That being said, I think Young Adult can fall in that fuzzy line between PG-13 movies and R movies. Some R movies really only have a woman naked (and not even involved in sexual situations) or some of them have maybe a few extra choice words thrown in at realistic intervals, or maybe an extra explosion with a drop or two of blood. I'm not talking Slingblade intensity here, but something like Terminator 3 for instance which is right on the borderland between PG-13 and R.

YA novels should demand a reader step up and challenge themselves, but not all at once. Does this make any sense?


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## J.R.Mooneyham (Mar 14, 2011)

That's a good question; one I struggled with in books about my own youth (most of mine so far are heavily autobiographical, and concern my high school and early college years).

My books deal with sex, violence, and terror quite a bit. But it's sex, violence, and terror of the kinds me and my teen peers were subject to in the real world at the time. 

I consider those books to be young adult in nature, for I got my own first job at 15, my first car at 16, and was pretty much at as much risk of death and dismemberment after that as any adult around. So I treat this stuff pretty straightforwardly and unapologetically in the stories.

I guess I do try to be a little more circumspect in my descriptive language though, than I necessarily would with older audiences. Especially with scenes of intimacy. It's probably best to treat those like old fashioned novels, when writing for young adults today; mainly hinting at things, rather than going excessively graphic. But sex is about the only place you might should be careful about in terms of YA Americans: because those people are saturated with violence and terror everywhere else in US media (check out the box office and mainstream TV fare). So it's doubtful you could make a noticeable mark in those areas of their psyches, no matter how hard you tried.


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## Steve Vernon (Feb 18, 2011)

With most of the YA that I've read a significant difference is in the pacing. Kids want their story delivered fast. YA should never fart around. The plot should never plod.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> But that's what I'm trying to get at with this question. The designation is very vague. I don't associate Young Adult with kids, but it seems that in the book world, that's what people think as often as not. I'm just curious what the designation means to readers on an individual basis. I have a feeling there are lots of differences of opinion.


I actually just finished a Library Science 405 class - Literature for Young Adults. YA ranges from 13 - 18, but there is a actually a pretty big difference between YA lit and Children's Literature (taking that class this quarter). Of course, in the lower age ranges there's some overlap with the higher age-range of childrens' lit, but the higher end stuff is definitely not to be confused. Similarly to movies, you start seeing more mature subject matter, but the books also tend to get longer, the vocabulary more advanced, etc.

As for what it means to me purely on a reader level - I tend to think of YA lit as being a bit "cleaner" than adult fiction, and also featuring a YA protagonist.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

The dividing line is personal preferences.  With YA, that preference may be that of the "parent' or "adult" if there is one checking the material.  

YA comes in all shapes and sizes, with characters that are usually, but not always, 20 or under.  But as a young adult, I certainly read material that I still find YA suitable and YA enjoyable with characters who are older.  The material does not contain "heavy" topics and are generally funny.  To me that qualifies them at least as cross over YA.


Beauty and youth are in the eye of the beholder.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

You're very right, Maria.  I was actually surprised that Hitchhiker's Guide was listed in my YA textbook as an example of YA lit.  Say what?


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

Arkali said:


> You're very right, Maria. I was actually surprised that Hitchhiker's Guide was listed in my YA textbook as an example of YA lit. Say what?


I haven't gotten around to HHG, but I would speculate it is because it is not super violent? And doesn't have overt references to sexual materials. It may make jokes about such things as religion, religious views, and perhaps at a few other things like that, but it doesn't dig into these topics and carry them to their absolute conclusions.

Truly, however, I consider YA writing to be, quite simply, better writing in most ways. It's quicker, it's cleaner (both in terms of subject matter and in terms of editing), it's to the point, and it pulls the reader along. Both adults and younger audiences can enjoy it, and who can deny the good of any book that gives older and younger people something in common to talk about and study together.


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## Alexandra Sokoloff (Sep 21, 2009)

_>>>>But it's sex, violence, and terror of the kinds me and my teen peers were subject to in the real world at the time.<<<<<_

I think that's a great way to put it, JR. It's a great thing that some kids escape that unscathed, I wish they all could, but I didn't want my books sugarcoated when I was that age and I've got to think a lot of teens feel exactly the same way now.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for the thoughtful replies everyone.  It definitely seems to be an eye of the beholder issue.  Although that 13-18 guidelline is helpful.  Is that an "official" designation by someone?  Is there such thing?

I agree that the writing in YA lit tends to be - I wouldn't say "better," but maybe more fun.  The pacing is usually very well done.  Also, the big commercial stories (as oppossed the one's about abuse and very serious subjects) tend to be more grand and less attached to the comparatively trifling matters of adulthood, where the vast world of imagination often shrinks to a tiny orbit of mere personal problems and psychological issues.  Stretching your boundaries and exercising your imagination is one of the best parts of reading, and YA books bring that in spades.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

I'd even go so far as to say 13-20.  I don't know if it's "official", but it is what was in my textbook.  I'll take a gander at the ALA site and see what they have to say.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Okay. From the YALSA web site:



> The term "young adult literature" is inherently amorphous, for its constituent terms "young adult" and "literature" are dynamic, changing as culture and society - which provide their context - change. When the term first found common usage in the late 1960's, it referred to realistic fiction that was set in the real (as opposed to imagined), contemporary world and addressed problems, issues, and life circumstances of interest to young readers aged approximately 12-18. Such titles were issued by the children's book divisions of American publishers and were marketed to institutions - libraries and schools - that served such populations.
> While some of this remains true today, much else has changed. In recent years, for example, the size of this population group has changed dramatically. Between 1990 and 2000 the number of persons between 12 and 19 soared to 32 million, a growth rate of seventeen percent that significantly outpaced the growth of the rest of the population. The size of this population segment has also increased as the conventional definition of "young adult" has expanded to include those as young as ten and, since the late 1990s, as old as twenty-five.


YALSA is the Young Adult Library Services Association, which is part of the American Library Association. That's probably about as official as you're going to get  Here's a link to the entire article, if you're interested:
The Value of Young Adult Literature


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

I have a slightly different take on this question -

I recently submitted a collection of short stories to a publisher.  She returned it to me with a very kind rejection, saying she felt that the stories were suitable for a young audience, and they don't publish for that market.  OK - I understand where she's coming from, and I'm sure she's correct that her company is not the right fit for my book.  But it did make me think:

I'm an adult - and not that young! And I wrote those stories for myself.  The people who have read them and responded to them aren't particularly young either.  I'm left wondering why did she consider them to be "young" adult stories.  

What I'm getting at is - why do I get the feeling that when a book is marked as Young Adult there is an invisible "...and not real adult" added? And if I'm right (and I'm not sure I am right about this!) what aspect would get a book marked in such a way, as not "really" an adult book.  An element of fantasy?  A young protagonist?  And if so - why?


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## Jamie Case (Feb 15, 2011)

I think the age of the character is important, but more important is that at least one of your young characters experiences a significant character arc in the story. If you feature teenagers in your book, but only as secondary characters (they don't change or grow over the story) then it's probably not YA. 

I would consider Lord of the Flies YA even though it was never intended by Golding to be YA.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

OT I know - but I've always disliked Lord of the Flies intensely. 

I'm not sure why, exactly. Something to do with the overal tone of the book. Is it YA? Good question. Looking purely at the subject matter, I would say yes. Looking at the book as a whole, I would say - maybe not.

A book with a very similar subject matter is Steve Augarde's "X-Isle" which I thoroughly enjoyed. And that is certainly YA. It's such a fantastic mix of vivid, dark, deeply emotional and spiritual moments, and really adolescent humor. Fart bombs!


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## brianrowe (Mar 10, 2011)

Yeah I've had similar questions, as my second novel Happy Birthday to Me tells of a 17-year-old in high school who's about to turn 18. How old can you go in a YA novel? Is 18 the limit? Like, could you write a YA novel about a 24-year-old? Or does the protagonist in the book have to be in high school?


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## LDHesler (Mar 25, 2011)

brianrowe said:


> Yeah I've had similar questions, as my second novel Happy Birthday to Me tells of a 17-year-old in high school who's about to turn 18. How old can you go in a YA novel? Is 18 the limit? Like, could you write a YA novel about a 24-year-old? Or does the protagonist in the book have to be in high school?


I think for a YA story to work, the protagonist probably needs to be 18 or younger (even though I would technically call anyone under 30 a "young" adult). YA readers are looking for a protagonist they can connect with on an emotional and physical level. They look for a book that has a little bit of themselves in the pages. I was a middle school teacher and I saw so many children reading books that featured protagonists who were reflections of the students.

But overall, I think a YA novel can be any number of things and take on any number of forms. There are dark and heavy YA books; there are light and easy-going YA books. And it's only natural; the YA audience has an ever-changing, unpredictable taste in literature.


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## KatieKlein (Dec 19, 2010)

> What I'm getting at is - why do I get the feeling that when a book is marked as Young Adult there is an invisible "...and not real adult" added?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anyone who feels this way has never read a YA novel.


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

Jamie Case said:


> I think the age of the character is important, but more important is that at least one of your young characters experiences a significant character arc in the story. If you feature teenagers in your book, but only as secondary characters (they don't change or grow over the story) then it's probably not YA.
> 
> I would consider Lord of the Flies YA even though it was never intended by Golding to be YA.


Did that term even exist when he wrote that?


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

mashadutoit said:


> I have a slightly different take on this question -
> 
> I recently submitted a collection of short stories to a publisher. She returned it to me with a very kind rejection, saying she felt that the stories were suitable for a young audience, and they don't publish for that market. OK - I understand where she's coming from, and I'm sure she's correct that her company is not the right fit for my book. But it did make me think:
> 
> ...


I am curious, too. Would you send a sample somehow? Or maybe a link?


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

KatieKlein said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anyone who feels this way has never read a YA novel.


I agree, although I'd add the word 'good' before 'YA'


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## Annalinde Matichei (Jan 23, 2011)

I know a number of adults who read YA books because they want fantasy stories without sex and profanity.


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## lpking (Feb 12, 2011)

As a parent -- my youngest is now almost 18 -- I used to assume novels classified as "YA" would have some uplifting, literary quality, as an encouragement to teachers/parents/librarians to push them at teenagers in lieu of the more titillating best-sellers aimed at adults. Then along came the Twilight series. Me, naive? Noooooo...


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

I find this discussion fascinating.  I've written a YA and have had this chat with some writer friends.  The YA market is interesting at the moment and here's my take.

I think YA as defined by publishers, marketing departments, bookstores and everyone else who needs to pigeon hole books, is more about theme.  Most popular YA themes are: Who am I?  How can I fit in? What's my purpose in life?  Of course these are universal to adults as well but I think teens obsess more and these questions are a huge part of their makeup (except for most teenage boys who seem to have only 1 thing on their mind and it's not incredibly esoteric, lol).  They want to know how they fit in within the bigger scheme of things, or they want to differentiate themselves from their parents and be their own person.

I've read several YA books where I'm amazed they're labeled as YA.  Phillip Pullman's Here Lies Arthur comes to mind.  Sure the main character is a child but it's a book I can't imagine many teens enjoying because of it's lengthy descriptions and slow pace.  But I think it's won an award (I could be wrong).  On the other end of the scale there's Twilight.  I know many many adults who love it, and teens too, and when I ask them why (believe me when I say I canvassed a lot of people over this) the answer is always the same - It's easy to read and Edward is hot.  Right.  So.  Maybe there's a lesson in there if we want to write hugely popular YA books.

And maybe there's 2 types of YA books - those WE want our kids to read and those our kids want to read. I like to think they're not mutually exclusive.  I'm hoping anyway.

Sorry the post was so long.  Interesting thread.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

C.J., I think you've hit the nail on the head by bringing up themes.  I consider my books to be YA mainly because of the perspective they show--of (mostly) competent young people desperate to prove themselves to an adult world.  There are other themes too, of course, but this is the big one.  And I don't think it's a theme that only young people could appreciate, I think most people have been in situations where they know they can do something, or have a certain expertise or even just a useful perspective on a problem, and yet they're ignored because of their position or age or sometimes for no real reason at all.  Well, I know that I have, anyway.

So yes.  I agree that themes are very important and a useful way of delineating YA.


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

CJArcher said:


> I find this discussion fascinating. I've written a YA and have had this chat with some writer friends. The YA market is interesting at the moment and here's my take.
> 
> I think YA as defined by publishers, marketing departments, bookstores and everyone else who needs to pigeon hole books, is more about theme. Most popular YA themes are: Who am I? How can I fit in? What's my purpose in life? Of course these are universal to adults as well but I think teens obsess more and these questions are a huge part of their makeup (except for most teenage boys who seem to have only 1 thing on their mind and it's not incredibly esoteric, lol). They want to know how they fit in within the bigger scheme of things, or they want to differentiate themselves from their parents and be their own person.
> 
> ...


When I have children, I think I may have to make them read Dracula before they read any popular vampire fiction. Anyway, I hope young adults will choose good (not necessarily wholesome, but good) literature to read, but I know there is such a thing as a guilty pleasure, or just plain pleasure (for some). What's funny is they think Twilight is original in some way.


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## EliRey (Sep 8, 2010)

I find it interesting that so many have a different take on this. When I first wrote my novel I didn't put any thought into what genre I was writing for it was just a story of first love. However when I decided to self publish I really had to think about it because the protagonist is 17 in the book. They're both in high school but then there was the profanity and the, yikes sexual content. That's the part that kept me questioning whether it was suitable for teens or not. But come on in this day and age get real. I ended up toning it down a bit but even as I promoted I found myself calling it a YA romance vs just a romance. Even when I submitted it to a review blog as a romance they ended up posting the review in their teen section of their blog.  

I think everyone will always have a different take on this. Me personally I think it's anything that would appeal to a young audience that said, I don't believe the main characters necessarily NEED to be teens.  Just my .02.


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## Plotspider (Mar 15, 2011)

EliRey said:


> I find it interesting that so many have a different take on this. When I first wrote my novel I didn't put any thought into what genre I was writing for it was just a story of first love. However when I decided to self publish I really had to think about it because the protagonist is 17 in the book. They're both in high school but then there was the profanity and the, yikes sexual content. That's the part that kept me questioning whether it was suitable for teens or not. But come on in this day and age get real. I ended up toning it down a bit but even as I promoted I found myself calling it a YA romance vs just a romance. Even when I submitted it to a review blog as a romance they ended up posting the review in their teen section of their blog.
> 
> I think everyone will always have a different take on this. Me personally I think it's anything that would appeal to a young audience that said, I don't believe the main characters necessarily NEED to be teens. Just my .02.


I'm not really sure there should be different genres divided like this (kids, young adult, adult). People are all different levels and they don't necessarily seek out books at their level. Perhaps, instead, books should be divided by the level of explicit content to expect (not to use as a banning mechanism, but instead as an expectation mechanism). Precocious children will read books that are far above them (I read All Quiet on the Western Front, understood it and enjoyed it and still remember it in 8th Grade (nearly twenty years ago, at least), along with 1984; in high school, I read The Merchant of Venice without provocation). And there will always be people who will want something that's a quick, fun, easy read they can just lay back and breeze through, if for no other reason than to get books under their belt. Having a book be YA really has almost no meaning, except that it won't have some of the more graphic things, but I find the more graphic things written in some novels read in a juvenile way and sound ridiculous, no matter how scary they are trying to be. I dunno. I write for the YA audience, but at the same time, try to challenge them and have them look up and see the realistic side of the world, the adult side, I guess.


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## Allan R. Wallace (Mar 15, 2011)

Thanks to all. You've shot my quandary between the eyes.

Hacker School has been called young adult by its readers. I didn't understand,

YA wasn't my target audience. The story starts with a young heroine trying to survive in a dystopia. My readers rightly focused on the youth and action. To them it was a YA story, later changes in tempo must have felt like focus drift. Since _young adult_ is so ambiguous, first impressions may have extra strength.

It's really a backstory for my trilogy, a backstory I seem to have left underdeveloped according to feedback. I could probably rewrite it with an older protagonist and remove some confusion (but I like Charlene as she is). Another fix might involve stabilizing the pacing (but I like changing gears).

Perhaps I have a schizophrenic story. Hmmm . . .


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