# An idea that'll probably get me banned...



## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

...but oh well...

What can I say, I'm an Idea Factory (TM)...



Ok, so here we all are: trad/indy published (or some combination of the two), hard working writers who are passionate about our craft. Some of us are struggling, others are doing ok, and some of us have become wildly successful beyond our wildest dreams...

Has anyone here ever considered making this...collection....more formal? Allow me to explain/expand:

Imagine for an instant that I become the next Hugh Howey or Elle Casey. Amazon Bestseller, USA Today Bestseller, NYT Bestseller. I pay off all my debts. I quit my day job. I start writing full time. My next book is a Bestseller, etc... Suddenly, money is no longer a concern for me. I'm good in terms of cash...I'm golden.

Now, I decide to pay it forward. I decide to INVEST in an up-and-coming author here on kboards. I see that they have some talent, but maybe they're struggling. I take them under my wing. I tell them that I'll pay for their new cover, or that I'll cover their editing expenses, or heck - that I'll pay them to write full time, in exchange for a % of their profits.

(In a way, we're already doing this now, here on kboards, but it's not formal - it's not a direct business relationship...)

Have I become a defacto publishing house? Am I merely an angel investor? Or am I just nuts and throwing money away?

Is this a viable or idea? Could this work?

I can envison this massive, powerful conglomerate of passionate, successful creatives: each of whom would invest in the next wave of creatives. Inspiring them, funding them - everybody making some coins and all of us doing what we love...

Or maybe I'm just a nut.

Probably the latter...nevertheless, I'd love to hear your thoughts.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

It's a beautiful thought.
But if money is no longer a concern for you, why take a cut?  And if you're "paying forward" you're not throwing money away. That would be the "paying forward" part.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Quiss said:


> It's a beautiful thought.
> But if money is no longer a concern for you, why take a cut? And if you're "paying forward" you're not throwing money away. That would be the "paying forward" part.


Very salient points, but I would look at this (and I'm sure most folks would), as an investment. I doubt you're going to get anyone interested otherwise, and good investments produce dividends and rewards.


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## gljones (Nov 6, 2012)

That could work for some folks, absolutely.  
However not for me.

One of the huge joys I get out of being an indie author is I'm in absolute control of everything!!
In the real world, (day job), I have zero control. In my little indie world it is the exact opposite and that's one of many reasons I love it so much.
Inviting someone into my little world is repellant. Heck I don't even want my wife reading my draft work! but again, that's me and I may be the only one that feels that way.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

So out of curiousity, do you actually think something this mundane would get you banned, or was the subject line just a cheap attempt to generate page views? 

And yes, if you take on all of the expense of the book in exchange for a portion of the proceeds, you are acting as a publisher. Nothing new here.


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## Lexi Revellian (May 31, 2010)

I'm convinced. I'll do it!

Oh wait, I'm not _wildly successful beyond my wildest dreams_ yet. Darn.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I guess you're joking about fear of being banned. 


You all can do whatever you want out side Kboards. . . . . .    People certainly have a right to do whatever they wish with their money -- to include donating it or spending it on stupid stuff or investing in people you feel will appreciate it.  Heck, you can dump it all in a room and swim in it if you want.

I also suspect there may be some members here who have already done what you're suggesting -- they've just not advertised the fact.  As is also their right.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

gljones said:


> That could work for some folks, absolutely.
> However not for me.
> 
> One of the huge joys I get out of being an indie author is I'm in absolute control of everything!!
> ...


Actually, this is where my idea would differ from a publisher, IMHO...I would have no creative input into your process. All I would be doing is funding your creative process. If you ask me for input, I'd be happy to provide it, of course, but otherwise, I'm just a backer for what you desire to do....


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Ashy said:


> Have I become a defacto publishing house? Am I merely an angel investor? Or am I just nuts and throwing money away?


Probably depends on how much control you expect.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm going to start banning people who post things like "this will probably get me banned...."

Call it the Betsy Wish Fulfillment Program


Betsy


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So out of curiousity, do you actually think something this mundane would get you banned, or was the subject line just a cheap attempt to generate page views?
> 
> And yes, if you take on all of the expense of the book in exchange for a portion of the proceeds, you are acting as a publisher. Nothing new here.


A little of both, I guess. 

I absolutely think that this could become a very inflamed topic. I don't know what kboard's policy on banning is, but I could see this becoming a hot 'tater...

Again, it would not necessarily be all of the expenses, and I would not have creative control unless the author asked for my input. That makes me a little different IMHO, from a publisher...maybe?


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Lexi Revellian said:


> I'm convinced. I'll do it!
> 
> Oh wait, I'm not _wildly successful beyond my wildest dreams_ yet. Darn.


Yea, we have a taker!

Awww...shucks!


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I guess you're joking about fear of being banned.
> 
> You all can do whatever you want out side Kboards. . . . . .  People certainly have a right to do whatever they wish with their money -- to include donating it or spending it on stupid stuff or investing in people you feel will appreciate it. Heck, you can dump it all in a room and swim in it if you want.
> 
> I also suspect there may be some members here who have already done what you're suggesting -- they've just not advertised the fact. As is also their right.


Again, who knows? I could see this becoming inflamatory pretty quickly. We indies don't want other people's fingers in our pies, so to speak...

Hurm...really? I wonder... I would love to know if this were the case, and if it was a successful "business model".


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Probably depends on how much control you expect.


I would not expect any creative control at all. I would respond to requests, but otherwise, step back and let the creative do what they do best: create...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm going to start banning people who post things like "this will probably get me banned...."
> 
> Call it the Betsy Wish Fulfillment Program
> 
> ...


ZOINKS!!!

See! I told ya! I told ya!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

You know. . . .if you're making the offer. . . . just say so.  If people are interested, they'll respond.  If they're not, they won't.

And that's how you'll know if it's a good idea or not.

If you're not in a position financially to make such an offer, why bring it up?  Or are you looking for someone to invest in you?


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

It seems like something that would be fraught with peril. You'd be inundated with requests, with free books, with begging and pleading and bluster and everything.

The only way you can make something like that work is if you do it incognito. That's how I would do it anyway (oddly, I've put some thought into exactly this...)


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> You know. . . .if you're making the offer. . . . just say so. If people are interested, they'll respond. If they're not, they won't.
> 
> And that's how you'll know if it's a good idea or not.
> 
> If you're not in a position financially to make such an offer, why bring it up? Or are you looking for someone to invest in you?


Just discussing an idea. Isn't that what a FORUM is for?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

Ashy said:


> Again, it would not necessarily be all of the expenses, and I would not have creative control unless the author asked for my input. That makes me a little different IMHO, from a publisher...maybe?


No, it just makes you a lazy publisher. Or a subsidy publisher if you are only paying part of the bill. If you are just talking about throwing money at random projects, there are thousands of people on Kickstarter looking for money.

Mentoring is more than throwing money at a person. What the industry needs are MENTORS. Not just people throwing money and giving out fluffy bunny slippers. Indie publishing has more that enough cheerleaders already. No sports team ever got to the Super Bowl or the World Series or the Stanley cup on the strength of its cheerleading squad. They get their on the strength of their coaches. The industry needs people who don't say "ignore the negative! You can do anything!" But instead say "Ignore the people telling you what you want to hear. You can't do everything. _So figure out what you can do well_."

There is a great book by Bob Knight called The Power of Negative Thinking: An Unconventional Approach to Achieving Positive Results. It drives home the whole problem with the unicorns and rainbows approach.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

David Adams said:


> It seems like something that would be fraught with peril. You'd be inundated with requests, with free books, with begging and pleading and bluster and everything.
> 
> The only way you can make something like that work is if you do it incognito. That's how I would do it anyway (oddly, I've put some thought into exactly this...)


Yea, that will come, David, but I think that with some screening on the front end, much of that could be alleviated. Maybe the author would have to be proven...maybe it would be a referral-type process...ya know, things like that.

What thoughts have you had?


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No, it just makes you a lazy publisher. Or a subsidy publisher if you are only paying part of the bill. If you are just talking about throwing money at random projects, there are thousands of people on Kickstarter looking for money.
> 
> Mentoring is more than throwing money at a person. What the industry needs are MENTORS. Not just people throwing money and giving out fluffy bunny slippers. Indie publishing has more that enough cheerleaders already. No sports team ever got to the Super Bowl or the World Series or the Stanley cup on the strength of its cheerleading squad. They get their on the strength of their coaches. The industry needs people who don't say "ignore the negative! You can do anything!" But instead say "Ignore the people telling you what you want to hear. You can't do everything. _So figure out what you can do well_."
> 
> There is a great book by Bob Knight called The Power of Negative Thinking: An Unconventional Approach to Achieving Positive Results. It drives home the whole problem with the unicorns and rainbows approach.


Hurm...so maybe mentoring in exchange for money.... 

Just jokin...thanks for the link, Sithwitch!


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Personally, I think the best way that "Bestsellers" can help non-bestsellers that they like is by being a "tastemaker" and mentioning those non-bestsellers on their FB page, blogs, interviews etc. 

I suppose that investing in the undiscovered talent could help. In the music industry this type of thing happens all the time. A musician gains a certain level of popularity/wealth and creates their own "label" and then signs "undiscovered" bands to it, covers recording costs and distributes the music. Oftentimes the popular band will then take the smaller band out on tour with them too. Sometimes the smaller band can then equal or eclipse the bigger band (see "Panic! at the Disco" and "Fall Out Boy"). Two things about this process though. It's not really the investing that leads the smaller band to success, it's the investor pimping the band out and mentioning it and promoting it. (Panic! At The Disco wouldn't have gained their level of popularity just by being on Pete Wentz's Decaydance label, but because Pete Wentz is a tastemaker and talked about them all the time, they became known). Also, the barrier to publication is so low (a book should be able to be professionally presented and published for under $1,000) that it's not really a burden. The hard part about success in the publishing industry (as well as in any media) is being discovered.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

DDark said:


> Isn't there (or wasn't there) an Indie mentoring program, or am I imagining things? I was thinking the other day how I'd like a mentor, but they'd probably tell me what I'm doing wrong is not cranking out enough books fast enough.
> 
> Sorry to derail the 'getting banned' train.


LOL!

I'd love to see a link or some details on this if anyone has them!


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## Lanie Jordan (Feb 23, 2011)

I love the idea. But I think helping people out is more than just spending money on their covers, formatting, etc. Personally, I know how to do that stuff, but someone helping with the insider stuff--the marketing side of things, helping to promote them, share secrets (cause I'm sure there are some!)--that'd be worth more in the long run. 

Paying for the skills of someone else = short term help. Teaching someone the skills they need = long term help. 

And...honestly, if you're making a profit from "helping" people, then you're becoming a business. If you're not charging them, then you're "taking them under your wing". That's my view, anyway.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

NathanWrann said:


> Personally, I think the best way that "Bestsellers" can help non-bestsellers that they like is by being a "tastemaker" and mentioning those non-bestsellers on their FB page, blogs, interviews etc.
> 
> I suppose that investing in the undiscovered talent could help. In the music industry this type of thing happens all the time. A musician gains a certain level of popularity/wealth and creates their own "label" and then signs "undiscovered" bands to it, covers recording costs and distributes the music. Oftentimes the popular band will then take the smaller band out on tour with them too. Sometimes the smaller band can then equal or eclipse the bigger band (see "Panic! at the Disco" and "Fall Out Boy"). Two things about this process though. It's not really the investing that leads the smaller band to success, it's the investor pimping the band out and mentioning it and promoting it. (Panic! At The Disco wouldn't have gained their level of popularity just by being on Pete Wentz's Decaydance label, but because Pete Wentz is a tastemaker and talked about them all the time, they became known). Also, the barrier to publication is so low (a book should be able to be professionally presented and published for under $1,000) that it's not really a burden. The hard part about success in the publishing industry (as well as in any media) is being discovered.


Ah!!!! Excellent idea and points here!! That would be cool - the mentoring author could talk about their new "budding author protegee" on their blogs, or maybe even take 'em on a book tour...things like that. Hurm....


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

NathanWrann said:


> Personally, I think the best way that "Bestsellers" can help non-bestsellers that they like is by being a "tastemaker" and mentioning those non-bestsellers on their FB page, blogs, interviews etc.


This would be huge, IMO. After all as an indy, I KNOW wrote the best book ever (and I have have my mom's review to prove it!) I just need to get it out there! 

But seriously... help creating a cover is good... help hooking up with editors is good... but all that happens places like here, and other similar forums already. If you truly want to help and indy, then what they really need is exposure. IMO.


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

This is quite interesting - almost "Assisted Publishing". It's definitely a bit of a can of worms though. If there's no creative assistance, and it's purely cash then Julie is right, it would be in the vein of subsidy publishing. 

Perhaps a better route would be to think of it as a loan repayable only by royalties at a fair interest rate. If it doesn't earn out after x years, it's written off. That way, you can pay forward your success by enabling the author to buy editing/ art etc as they see fit, but without the worry of the upfront costs. Those fixed costs aren't huge - $1000 buys adequete art & editorial assistance to bring work up to a professional level, so the risk on any loan would be small. It could be repaid as 50% of income up to a cap of the initial loan + x% compounded over the duration taken to repay it. If you're helping multiple authors then bulk negotiation might help in securing better rates for those services as well - freelancers often like repeat business, and having 'go to' resources of proven quality is useful for an author who isn't perhaps as business savvy as the majority of the kindle board authors.

Once equity stakes in the IP come into play, the contracts get complicated - especially internationally. It also brings up questions of ethics - small investment now, big % long term off the author... that sounds more predator than guardian angel to me.

The mentoring/ social media help element can help the author earn enough to repay the capital more quickly, or be done as a non-financial method of paying it forward.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Lanie Jordan said:


> I love the idea. But I think helping people out is more than just spending money on their covers, formatting, etc. Personally, I know how to do that stuff, but someone helping with the insider stuff--the marketing side of things, helping to promote them, share secrets (cause I'm sure there are some!)--that'd be worth more in the long run.
> 
> Paying for the skills of someone else = short term help. Teaching someone the skills they need = long term help.
> 
> And...honestly, if you're making a profit from "helping" people, then you're becoming a business. If you're not charging them, then you're "taking them under your wing". That's my view, anyway.


Yea, very true. It could become very...mercenary pretty quickly, I guess. Hmmm.... Very good thoughts, Lanie!


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

VydorScope said:


> This would be huge, IMO. After all as an indy, I KNOW wrote the best book ever (and I have have my mom's review to prove it!) I just need to get it out there!
> 
> But seriously... help creating a cover is good... help hooking up with editors is good... but all that happens places like here, and other similar forums already. If you truly want to help and indy, then what they really need is exposure. IMO.


LOL! Very true, I'd totally missed the exposure angle in my initial thoughts...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

90daysnovel said:


> This is quite interesting - almost "Assisted Publishing". It's definitely a bit of a can of worms though. If there's no creative assistance, and it's purely cash then Julie is right, it would be in the vein of subsidy publishing.
> 
> Perhaps a better route would be to think of it as a loan repayable only by royalties at a fair interest rate. If it doesn't earn out after x years, it's written off. That way, you can pay forward your success by enabling the author to buy editing/ art etc as they see fit, but without the worry of the upfront costs. Those fixed costs aren't huge - $1000 buys adequete art & editorial assistance to bring work up to a professional level, so the risk on any loan would be small. It could be repaid as 50% of income up to a cap of the initial loan + x% compounded over the duration taken to repay it. If you're helping multiple authors then bulk negotiation might help in securing better rates for those services as well - freelancers often like repeat business, and having 'go to' resources of proven quality is useful for an author who isn't perhaps as business savvy as the majority of the kindle board authors.
> 
> ...


Hey, now there's an idea...and please don't get me wrong. I did not mean to inply that (in my original scenario) I would be getting rich off the labors of other creatives, but merely providing them an avenue that they might not have otherwise while still breaking even on my "investment".

Again, this is just an _*idea*_ - not a marketing plan/proposal or anything. I think something like this, if well thought out, vetted, and implemented correctly, could be a huge boon to creatives everywhere (not just authors).


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Mentoring is more than throwing money at a person. What the industry needs are MENTORS. Not just people throwing money and giving out fluffy bunny slippers.


Fiddle faddle. I'll offer myself up for the cause. Someone send me five grand and I'll let you know how it goes six months from now. Paypal, please.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Quiss said:


> Fiddle faddle. I'll offer myself up for the cause. Someone send me five grand and I'll let you know how it goes six months from now. Paypal, please.


LOL! Way to take one for the team, Quiss!


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## gljones (Nov 6, 2012)

Wait, I change my answer!  I'll take free money if someone wants to send it to me!


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

Would be good for some if there was a buddy system. Mentoring, guidance, feedback, support, regular check ins. At times this cafe can feel rather large, and often one's posts in threads come and go in silence


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

gljones said:


> Wait, I change my answer! I'll take free money if someone wants to send it to me!


*BZZZZZTTT!*

"I'm sorry, gljones, you've already answered, but thanks for playing..." (flashes patented Game Show Host Grin)....


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Would be good for some if there was a buddy system. Mentoring, guidance, feedback, support, regular check ins. At times this cafe can feel rather large, and often one's posts in threads come and go in silence


Another excellent idea to add to the stewpot...


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

Your money, your business. 

But.

If you want to pay it forward, don't give money...give audience. 

It costs you nothing. It has more value than cash to a new author. It provides value to your fans. 

#justsayin


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

ShaneJeffery said:


> Would be good for some if there was a buddy system. Mentoring, guidance, feedback, support, regular check ins. At times this cafe can feel rather large, and often one's posts in threads come and go in silence


that's why you need a network.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Nathan Lowell said:


> Your money, your business.
> 
> But.
> 
> ...


I concur completely!


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

Ashy said:


> We indies don't want other people's fingers in our pies, so to speak...


Unless you write erotica like I do ...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

summerdaniels71 said:


> Unless you write erotica like I do ...


ROTFL! There are exceptions to every rule, of course!


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Aren't many KB members already doing this _without_ expecting a portion of another author's profits? Writer's Cafe is filled with members offering others valuable advice and opinions. I even see members frequently take the time to help create covers for new books, and only asking for credit if their design is used.

I get your intentions, but I think if one really wants to help a fellow author, they can offer advice, support, and ideas without expecting a portion of already meager profits. It's working out quite nicely already in this forum.


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## penrefe (Nov 30, 2011)

Nathan Lowell said:


> Your money, your business.
> 
> But.
> 
> ...


True. I'd rather have Jim Butcher bigging up my books to his audience rather than him giving me $10,000.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Mandy said:


> Aren't many KB members already doing this _without_ expecting a portion of another author's profits? Writer's Cafe is filled with members offering others valuable advice and opinions. I even see members frequently take the time to help create covers for new books, and only asking for credit if their design is used.
> 
> I get your intentions, but I think if one really wants to help a fellow author, they can offer advice, support, and ideas without expecting a portion of already meager profits. It's working out quite nicely already in this forum.


Absolutely...all I'm talking about is taking it the next step. Continue to offer advice and solutions, and then offer to pay to have them implemented.

Again, it's just an idea...


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm with Mandy. This sort of things happens all over the place, privately, in PMs, and off boards. We promote each other, we share good leads on bloggers, we provide expertise on covers or send along good stock art we discover. Sometimes money is involved if we pay to promote each other's Facebook posts or offer up a prize for a Rafflecopter but don't charge anyone to be on it with us.

No need for formality. Just be friendly and helpful on the KBs.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

penrefe said:


> True. I'd rather have Jim Butcher bigging up my books to his audience rather than him giving me $10,000.


Very good point and I agree!


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## fallswriter (Sep 11, 2012)

Nathan Lowell said:


> If you want to pay it forward, don't give money...give audience.
> 
> It costs you nothing. It has more value than cash to a new author. It provides value to your fans.
> 
> #justsayin


Nathan states what I've already found in abundance here on KB. I've purchased several authors' books based on threads, posts, and helpfulness. Paying it forward is more than just monetary.



TexasGirl said:


> I'm with Mandy. This sort of things happens all over the place, privately, in PMs, and off boards. We promote each other, we share good leads on bloggers, we provide expertise on covers or send along good stock art we discover. Sometimes money is involved if we pay to promote each other's Facebook posts or offer up a prize for a Rafflecopter but don't charge anyone to be on it with us.
> 
> No need for formality. Just be friendly and helpful on the KBs.


^This.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

There are also these things called Indie-go-go and Kickstarter.  Where you can pay it forward if you want by supporting projects from various people AND you get cool swag.   That's what I do, anyway. It's fun to support various projects from fellow writers and artists, keeps my risks low, and I get neat things out of it.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Ashy said:


> Now, I decide to pay it forward. I decide to INVEST in an up-and-coming author here on kboards. I see that they have some talent, but maybe they're struggling. I take them under my wing. I tell them that I'll pay for their new cover, or that I'll cover their editing expenses, or heck - that I'll pay them to write full time, in exchange for a % of their profits.


If you're doing this as a philanthropy, you won't be asking for a "% of their profits." When corporations give away scholarships, they don't get money back.

Small and indie publishers do the things you listed already. Their acquisition editors see that a writer's work has potential. So they take the writer under the publisher's wings, do all the things you said, charge the author nothing, pay for everything in the publication process. You don't need an agent to work with these small publishers. The royalties for small publisher is about 40% across the board including eBooks and print books. There is no advance. But 40% is more than the 25% cap that Big 5 publishers give to authors for ebooks.

Several writers I know who don't know how to SP or don't want to be an entrepreneur have signed up with small publishers who are now publishing for them -- formatting, cover design, editing, proofreading. However, I am not sure what their distribution plan is, but these small publishers can get into bookstores too.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> There are also these things called Indie-go-go and Kickstarter. Where you can pay it forward if you want by supporting projects from various people AND you get cool swag.  That's what I do, anyway. It's fun to support various projects from fellow writers and artists, keeps my risks low, and I get neat things out of it.


Yea, I'm aware of Crowdsourcing/funding opportunities. I was talking about something a bit more...intentional, I guess. An active attempt to invest into the lives and projects of up-and-coming indie authors...

Pipe-dream? Maybe.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

JanThompson said:


> If you're doing this as a philanthropy, you won't be asking for a "% of their profits." When corporations give away scholarships, they don't get money back.
> 
> Small and indie publishers do the things you listed already. Their acquisition editors see that a writer's work has potential. So they take the writer under the publisher's wings, do all the things you said, charge the author nothing, pay for everything in the publication process. You don't need an agent to work with these small publishers. The royalties for small publisher is about 40% across the board including eBooks and print books. There is no advance. But 40% is more than the 25% cap that Big 5 publishers give to authors for ebooks.
> 
> Several writers I know who don't know how to SP or don't want to be an entrepreneur have signed up with small publishers who are now publishing for them -- formatting, cover design, editing, proofreading. However, I am not sure what their distribution plan is, but these small publishers can get into bookstores too.


Very true, but those small publishers are likely going to want some measure of control over those created properties. Which is all well and good, but that's not what I was talking about...


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Ashy said:


> I would not expect any creative control at all. I would respond to requests, but otherwise, step back and let the creative do what they do best: create...


Hmmm. Then to me you are acting mostly like a publisher, but withholding a piece.

A publisher invests in editing and cover and formatting, in exchange for a slice of the future pie. In some cases, the publisher gives an advance--the point of which used to be that it freed the writer from other obligations so that she had time to write (my advances never accomplish that--the biggest I've gotten recently was $6000, and that was divided into 3 chunks--2k on signing, 2K on turning over a complete first draft, and 2K on turning over to production. Total advance was $12K, and half went to my co-author on the same schedule).

But that editing is a huge piece. It's one of the more expensive pieces to pay for on your own, which is why some writers, even though they don't need the arguable "prestige" of being published by someone else, still go through small presses. Under your system, the writer would still have to find that editing somewhere. I suppose the money you gave them could to go editing... but then why wouldn't the writer not just choose a full-service publisher in the first place?

I think the idea at a place like this, KBoards, is that you give help and you get help. Maybe not exactly the same kind of help, but you're in the karma circle. You feel a connection to the people here, and you offer advice and encouragement in advance of needing it yourself sometimes because you'll then have a place to go when you need help. Remember when Elle was so close to cracking the top 100 recently? People then bought a copy of her book (which she didn't ask for; people just did that on their own). I bought one. It's a buck--so what if it's not my usual genre? And maybe the push of, I don't know, 30 or 40 of us here helped her climb a few spots. But she's tireless at giving advice and encouragement here.

I'd put off making a mailing list because ... eh, I don't know why. After reading a number of successful people here saying "You gotta make a mailing list" and "If I could do it over, I'd do a mailing list from the beginning," I finally got that particular portion of my act together. I got help I didn't even know I needed!


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## Joseph Turkot (Nov 9, 2012)

I for one dislike the idea, and cringed at reading it, knowing how your suggestion would make successful authors feel. There is an underlying implication here that attempts to define how people should use their money, and that I find pretentious.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Joseph Turkot said:


> I for one dislike the idea, and cringed at reading it, knowing how your suggestion would make successful authors feel. There is an underlying implication here that attempts to define how people should use their money, and that I find pretentious.


Never meant to offend, sir.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

Joseph Turkot said:


> I for one dislike the idea, and cringed at reading it, knowing how your suggestion would make successful authors feel. There is an underlying implication here that attempts to define how people should use their money, and that I find pretentious.


I like the idea..... think it's good to have options.

[/quote]I think the idea at a place like this, KBoards, is that you give help and you get help. Maybe not exactly the same kind of help, but you're in the karma circle.[/quote]

Sure, but sometimes you want specific help. For instance, my blurbs are rubbish - I need specific help with them. Someone to work with you. Think it would be a nice feeling for anyone starting out or anyone who has been in the business for a while, but not getting to where they need to get to.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Sarwah2012 said:


> Sure, but sometimes you want specific help. For instance, my blurbs are rubbish - I need specific help with them. Someone to work with you. Think it would be a nice feeling for anyone starting out or anyone who has been in the business for a while, but not getting to where they need to get to.


But then, wouldn't you post your blurb here and ask for blurb help? I see people do that all the time.

If you want someone to help with blurb and everything else, and more focused on you and your needs, then that's a publisher. And as with the OP's proposed system, that person (or group of people) puts in all the work free of charge now, in exchange for a percentage of future royalties.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

No. Next!


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Monique said:


> No. Next!


LOL! I like it. Simple and straight to the point.


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## Joshua Dalzelle (Jun 12, 2013)

I know this is a "what if" hypothetical, but it seems this forum already provides an invaluable service to fledgling (or floundering) writers without shaking down the successful writers for money. 

There are some mega-successful authors here who freely and often give out advice to help those of us who aren't there yet. This is a little off-topic, but I also don't like the idea that my success is defined by my sales numbers or income. It certainly wasn't what I had in mind when I decided to publish for the first time. If many years from now I can leave the rat race and be supported by my writing that would be an incredible validation, but if I only ever sell just enough to cover my costs (covers, editing, etc) I would be just as happy.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Joshua Dalzelle said:


> This is a little off-topic, but I also don't like the idea that my success is defined by my sales numbers or income. It certainly wasn't what I had in mind when I decided to publish for the first time. If many years from now I can leave the rat race and be supported by my writing that would be an incredible validation, but if I only ever sell just enough to cover my costs (covers, editing, etc) I would be just as happy.


Thank you.


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

1001nightspress said:


> But then, wouldn't you post your blurb here and ask for blurb help? I see people do that all the time.
> 
> If you want someone to help with blurb and everything else, and more focused on you and your needs, then that's a publisher. And as with the OP's proposed system, that person (or group of people) puts in all the work free of charge now, in exchange for a percentage of future royalties.


True - like someone saying why join the RWA - when you have the board etc. as I said another option, is not a bad thing.... just like why bother advertising on any of the other stores if Amazon has the greatest market share


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## DCBourone (Sep 10, 2012)

Would be shocking if some version of this idea did not evolve over time.

A Howey or Hocking or Your Favorite Indie Star will eventually leverage brand/name/etc
into a clearing house for like talents.

Run it as a co-op.

Someone will spreadsheet the overhead eventually, and give it a shot.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

DCBourone said:


> Would be shocking if some version of this idea did not evolve over time.
> 
> A Howey or Hocking or Your Favorite Indie Star will eventually leverage brand/name/etc
> into a clearing house for like talents.
> ...


Well, if I make it to the Howey/Hocking level, you can bet that I'll give it a go.  Lotsa words to write before then, however...


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## bhazelgrove (Jul 16, 2013)

You just described the publisher of old. Develop the author and pay for the costs with a little advance to tide the author over to the next book or when royalties kick in. Unfortunately this is no longer the case. Sell or perish. And without support most authors perish.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I have some ducklings under my wing. Do you want them? I will send them over.   

If you're not bad*ss enough to take a cut off the top, your reward will be hugs and kisses and more questions than there are minutes in the day. If you're really unlucky, they'll just ditch you when they get a little taste of success and make you feel like a sap. 

It's so much easier to produce the good work yourself and learn the business. Remember the last few plagiarism scandals? How'd you like to get wrapped up in one of those as the publisher/co-author? Not good.


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Mimi said:


> I have some ducklings under my wing. Do you want them? I will send them over.
> 
> If you're not bad*ss enough to take a cut off the top, your reward will be hugs and kisses and more questions than there are minutes in the day. If you're really unlucky, they'll just ditch you when they get a little taste of success and make you feel like a sap.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I liked your idea of helping others, up until the point of being too involved and also taking a cut.  If I ever have financial success, I already have a list of people I want to help, but it would be more along the lines of buying them covers, and advertising if they need or want it.  I would also go through the threads to see who needs what, and help where I could.  But to ask for something in return?  Nope and nope. That's not true giving. It's a strings-attached type of giving.  That's not supporting a fellow indie...that's controlling one.


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that an indie author shouldn't need that kind of specialized assistance from anyone. Mentoring in small bits and pieces can be found all over this forum and many others for the author willing to put some time into research and networking. There's loads of information out there on writing good books, publishing them, and marketing them.

As for money. In general, I don't think indie authors need financial assistance. If an author spends six months writing and editing her book, that's six months she has to save money. If she put away $100 a month, she would have $600 by the time she needs it -- that's $100 for a cover and $500 for a copyedit. Yes, more money would get a more in-depth edit -- but hey, she's just starting out. As for marketing and promotion, while there are easy options that cost money, there are limitless free ones that only require effort. Even for people who can't squeeze out any extra pennies, there are free or super cheap options out there -- freelancers who are just starting out, trading services, etc. You might not get top-of-the-line results but you can't expect diamonds for nothing.

That's my opinion, anyway, for my own career at the very least. I plan to pay my own way and make friends and contacts instead of indebting myself to mentors. But then, the independence factor of self-publishing is what attracted me to it in the first place. If I wanted my hand held I would be querying agents right now instead.

M.W


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

DCBourone said:


> Would be shocking if some version of this idea did not evolve over time.
> 
> A Howey or Hocking or Your Favorite Indie Star will eventually leverage brand/name/etc
> into a clearing house for like talents.
> ...


It has already happened. Bob Mayer has a small publishing house and Theresa Medeiros is launching one as well. The Indie Voice has discussed it and think it's a great idea, but we simply don't have the time to do it right, so we have to pass.


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## Ethan Jones (Jan 20, 2012)

I thought about how nice it would be if things in writing worked a bit more like in music or in the movies. You know, when a famous band invites a local band to open up their concern or when an indie movie is shown at a major movie festival. 

What a great help it would be if Brad Thor or John Grisham or other big names had a chapter at the end of their newest books from an unknown writer in their genre. Some authors already do this to a smaller extent, in the form of blurbs for fellow writers.

Ethan


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## deana (Jun 7, 2011)

Joseph Turkot said:


> I for one dislike the idea, and cringed at reading it, knowing how your suggestion would make successful authors feel. There is an underlying implication here that attempts to define how people should use their mopney, and that I find pretentious.
> [/how]
> 
> I think the word "banned" was used for just this reason of how some people would take this idea. Similar to Oliver Twist asking for more food, please, for supper. MORE?!! Mr. Bumble says, Like a, "how dare you" attitude.
> ...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Ethan Jones said:


> I thought about how nice it would be if things in writing worked a bit more like in music or in the movies. You know, when a famous band invites a local band to open up their concern or when an indie movie is shown at a major movie festival.
> 
> What a great help it would be if Brad Thor or John Grisham or other big names had a chapter at the end of their newest books from an unknown writer in their genre. Some authors already do this to a smaller extent, in the form of blurbs for fellow writers.
> 
> Ethan


Now that's some cool, out-of-the-box thinking!


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I think it's a noble idea, and if you want to go ahead with it you should.

I am all about paying it forward to those who deserve it.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Ashy said:


> ...but oh well...
> 
> What can I say, I'm an Idea Factory (TM)...
> 
> ...


It can indeed work, but probably will not.

What you are talking about is often heard of, but rarely seen. It is called selfless compassion, a rare commodity these days. Historical examples can be seen in such actions as the old time 'barn raising parties', in which farmers from across an entire area would band together to help another farmer build a barn, for no more compensation then gratitude and a party that they even paid for. Most of the barn raising parties were pot-luck, so even most of the food and drink were brought by the farmers helping to build the barn.

Today it is an alien thought for many. The first question you will hear is 'what do I get out of it' from the people who can provide the help. The first question you will hear from those who would receive the assistance is 'what do you get out of it', followed by suspicion.

My advice?

Do it. Go for it.

It is a historically workable, and noble concept. This country has lost something quite precious, and we need to bring it back.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorry. Nobody needs to witness my pity party.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

This is the beginning of a really refreshing idea.

Given that a lot of the common advice is SPEND MOAR MONEY, on covers and editing and advertising, it creates an unnecessary barrier for entry for folks who are only just making ends meet and writing on the side. Basically people are putting up a 'no poors allowed' sign. Maybe we can pretend that's okay in more businesses, but it dramatically misses the point of the whole 'indie' label. It came from *not* being corporate and cutthroat, remember?

I think it would be great for everyone if there was some level of patronage for authors who are found promising  but are unable to afford all the extras that can really make them competitive.

However, I don't think taking a percentage chunk is the answer. A loan plus interest pending the effort actually making money seems more appropriate for an indie effort.


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## Jude Hardin (Feb 5, 2011)

I have a better idea. Instead of giving me money, a mega-bestseller in the same genre could share his/her mailing list with me.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> This is the beginning of a really refreshing idea.
> 
> Given that a lot of the common advice is SPEND MOAR MONEY, on covers and editing and advertising, it creates an unnecessary barrier for entry for folks who are only just making ends meet and writing on the side. Basically people are putting up a 'no poors allowed' sign.
> 
> ...


Hurm...I like the concept of patrons...and levels of patrons. Interesting.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Jude Hardin said:


> I have a better idea. Instead of giving me money, a mega-bestseller in the same genre could share his/her mailing list with me.


I think that would actually work more against you than for you...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> Sorry. Nobody needs to witness my pity party.


It's your choice, Sheila, but I think your prior point was poignant, pointed, and perfect.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Ashy said:


> It's your choice, Sheila, but I think your prior point was poignant, pointed, and perfect.


The things a beginning, IE financially broke, author needs the most:

1. A good story which will sell
2. A good cover
3. A good edit
4. A good blurb/description

The successful authors can help with everything but number 1. The ability to conceive, imagine, formulate, and then tell a good story is not something which can be provided.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I think that would be a matter of what the patron intends to do/sees needs help.

Heck, sometimes it doesn't even need to be direct or monetary. Just mentioning that you think writer X needs more love in a blog can go a long, long way.

Back when I was doing my webcomic, getting linked by Order of the Stick (even though Rich and I were internet friends) was a way, way bigger deal than if he, say, paid to upgrade my side.

Remember, the problem most of us have if we're even halfway good at what we do is visibility.As much as we talk about covers and blurbs and such, none of that matters if we can't even reach people--and that is something that is becoming more difficult and expensive with each passing month.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> I think that would be a matter of what the patron intends to do/sees needs help.
> 
> Heck, sometimes it doesn't even need to be direct or monetary. Just mentioning that you think writer X needs more love in a blog can go a long, long way.
> 
> ...


Very, very true.

OOTS rocks, BTW!


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Folks, for all the collective knowledge and expertise on here, what people sometimes need, above all else, is a simple silent click on their BUY button.

Sheila, you just sold a copy of every one of your titles in the UK. I look forward to reading them. And there's a hug on its way from 3,000 miles off . . . they tell me they arrive quite quickly in North Carolina.

Good luck
Joe


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> I think that would be a matter of what the patron intends to do/sees needs help.
> 
> Heck, sometimes it doesn't even need to be direct or monetary. Just mentioning that you think writer X needs more love in a blog can go a long, long way.
> 
> ...


There is a problem here, but please understand that I am not being critical of you here.

If I understand what you said correctly, then you are comparing apples to oranges. I could be wrong in my understanding, and if so then I retract what I am about to say.

There is a huge difference between a non-paying webcomic to a professional work. I have an example myself, in the same vein. I used to write post apocalyptic fanfic. All that I needed to do it, and feel successful at it, was the screams of my fans wanting 'moar'. There is nothing as heady as enthusiastic fans, or a great comment by another author that you respect in the same genre concerning your story(s).

However, such things quite simply do not pay the bills *that have to be payed* by a professional. As soon as the 'publish' button is clicked at Amazon this becomes a professional endeavor, and not merely an amateur hobby. The person has taken the leap that separates the amateur from the professional, the hobby from the business.

Every professional, in any business, has business expenses inherent with their craft, no matter what the craft.

'Moar' does not pay fifty, to two hundred dollars for a good cover. 'Moar' does not pay five to fifty cents a word for a good editor on a 100,000 word novel. All the link-backs and mentions in the world will not help a horrible book description.

Waving or wishing these expenses away, will not make them go away.

These are the expenses a beginning author often can't hope to pay on their first novel, and many times even on the second.

Crappy covers kill immediate sales. Bad editing leads to bad feedback and terrible buzz, and kills future sales. A horrible book description makes the potential customer turn up their nose. A lack of sales means lack of funds to invest. Lack of investment funds leads to an inability to correct the problem(s), causing future lack of sales, causing a lack of future investment funds.

It is a vicious financial circle which will eventually cause most beginning indie authors to quit writing professionally... unless something happens to break the cycle.

At this point, they could be the writing equal of Mark Twain and no one would ever know the difference.

Like it or not... money matters. Also, like it or not, financial assistance is often more important then advice, encouragement, or well-wishing.


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## Ethan Jones (Jan 20, 2012)

Perhaps one way to deal with finances is to view writing as a hobby, an activity you enjoy doing that carries some cost. Birthday gifts, anniversary gifts can be monetary for your hobby, as well as bonuses and any extra penny you can save a year can go as the investment to pay for a book cover, proofreading and editing. 

At first, promotional work costs only your time, contacting reviewers, bloggers and so on. And write another book or story and repeat the process. If you have gotten some positive feedback and you have gained some readers, you are doing something right. Repeat and change as needed.

Ethan


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

pauldude000 said:


> <snip>


1) I did have a 'sometimes' there.

2) We have seen people time and time again come here shocked SHOCKED that Book X is doing well even though the cover isn't industry standard and editing is bad. Those things will keep people off the bestseller list, yes, but just to get movement? That just takes getting eyes on and a lot of people have their worst problems when it comes down to getting those eyes on.

That's why I said that sometimes *SOMETIMES* a person doesn't have to shell out money to help out a less fortunate author. People with those huge mailing lists could just mention some books that they enjoyed that they feel deserves their readers' attention and do a world of good for the authors of those books.

Word of mouth like that makes a huge difference and also _bypasses covers and blurbs_, making the actual story itself more important, which is better for everyone.

Also, other can stop reading here, but I have to take offense at something:

Non-paying webcomic? Let me make this clear: not every webcomic is 'non-paying', okay? My old comic might not have made a mint, but with ads and swag sales, it kept itself paid for and even sent me and my artist to a convention.

And yes, there were bills. This was a time before Drunk Duck or TheComic.com, and cafepress was not all that big, so not only did we have hosting and domain costs and hosting costs (oh hey, those cheap small internet hosts of today? Nope!), but we had to pay local printers to do all out swag for conventions and such, so we did pretty dang well for our 'non-paying' webcomic, okay?

Just like you don't like people presuming about self-publishers, I don't like people presuming about people who do webcomics. It is a hobby for plenty of people, but some people do put some blood on those pages and in those servers and don't deserve to be looked down on.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Ethan Jones said:


> Perhaps one way to deal with finances is to view writing as a hobby, an activity you enjoy doing that carries some cost. Birthday gifts, anniversary gifts can be monetary for your hobby, as well as bonuses and any extra penny you can save a year can go as the investment to pay for a book cover, proofreading and editing.
> 
> At first, promotional work costs only your time, contacting reviewers, bloggers and so on. And write another book or story and repeat the process. If you have gotten some positive feedback and you have gained some readers, you are doing something right. Repeat and change as needed.
> 
> Ethan


I understand the principle Ethan, but that assumes the author is not only a passable writer, but also a passable editor as well. Writing more books accomplishes zero towards making any of the books professional. Eventually it might lead to better writing skills, but that is it.

To even hire a cheap editor costs between .005 to .01 a word, and at 100,000 words, that is 500 to 1000 dollars. At ten to twenty sales sales a month per title due to buyer beware feedback, how many novels would that author have to produce to edit even ONE book? How many YEARS?

Write more does not fix every problem. It works toward building future income, after the initial requirements are met.

You see my point?

The hobby concept is true, concerning finances for some. However, a five hundred to a thousand dollar hobby would generally be out of most people's reach anyway, for any hobby.

For many people it would mean not paying rent, lights, or not buying food just to scrape together that much cash. The majority of America is NOT middle income, where a person can consider such expenditure on a whim.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Ashy said:


> Very, very true.
> 
> OOTS rocks, BTW!


I love to mess with other fans by pointing out that I got to see the first strips months before Rich even considered starting the site. I even offered to host him on our site, which is kind of funny given his arrangement with Rob Balder.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

I think the ideal of investing money in an author without providing some input/advice/mentoring on the writing side is where the idea will always break down. That means that either a) You're giving money to a writer who's already achieved some success, which will cut the most needy authors out of the equation; or b) Throwing money out to virtually anyone who asks, or who is recommended, and therefore as an investor or patron, you could literally be throwing your money away. And ultimately, it allows the author to publish, but doesn't help them to improve as a writer. I think it's like buying a man fishing gear so that he can acquire food for his family, but not bothering to teach him how to actually fish well enough to succeed at it.

If you're really interested in investing in an author, then you can't just throw money at him or her and stand aside. Not if your goal is really to help them become successful, that is.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> 1) I did have a 'sometimes' there.
> 
> 2) We have seen people time and time again come here shocked SHOCKED that Book X is doing well even though the cover isn't industry standard and editing is bad. Those things will keep people off the bestseller list, yes, but just to get movement? That just takes getting eyes on and a lot of people have their worst problems when it comes down to getting those eyes on.
> 
> ...


I am sorry that you took the non-paying statement concerning your webcomic so harshly. Yet, just like my fanfic, it is still apples to oranges. To the best of my knowledge, neither your webcomic, nor my fanfic, were professional ventures and cannot be compared as such.

I don't presume anything about webcomics, and hold no real opinion one way or the other concerning them. My statement was not a value judgement. (IE is good or bad) Something tells me that you have dealt with extended criticism over the comic issue. I have had to deal with criticism because I wrote fanfic. Big whoop. Someone, somewhere, is looking down their nose at both of us.

Don't assume someone has their nose in the air, just because they make a _*SEEMINGLY*_ negative statement. I am not biased about webcomics in general, nor your webcomic in specific.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Greg Banks said:


> I think the ideal of investing money in an author without providing some input/advice/mentoring on the writing side is where the idea will always break down. That means that either a) You're giving money to a writer who's already achieved some success, which will cut the most needy authors out of the equation; or b) Throwing money out to virtually anyone who asks, or who is recommended, and therefore as an investor or patron, you could literally be throwing your money away. And ultimately, it allows the author to publish, but doesn't help them to improve as a writer. I think it's like buying a man fishing gear so that he can acquire food for his family, but not bothering to teach him how to actually fish well enough to succeed at it.
> 
> If you're really interested in investing in an author, then you can't just throw money at him or her and stand aside. Not if your goal is really to help them become successful, that is.


Yes, I see your point there, especially after re-reading what I wrote. The way I worded things, that is exactly how what I was stating looks too, in that I was advising basically throw money at the situation.

Advice, even good advice, is common here, from what I have seen. There are numerous authors willing to share info or advice at the drop of a hat. I should have worded that in from the beginning. Basically, the advise is already here and available. If you were helping someone, they would probably ask your advise as well.

The point I was trying to make is that the advice is not sufficient, if money is the issue, but it came off as "throw enough money at it and the problem goes away."

Incorrect wording, and my fault. I apologize.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

pauldude000 said:


> <snip>


No, see you then did it again.

There _are_ professional webcomic ventures. There is an industry, there are revenue models and discussions about what makes a site more profitable. There are hobbyist webcomicers, yes. A majority of them are. But that doesn't mean there aren't professionals or people trying to become professionals and they have the exact same problem self published authors have in that you can make the best comic in the world with a slick site and maybe even a guy who does all your web stuff, but the problem is getting eyes on.

That is the point I was making and you constantly brush it aside to talk about things that have nothing to do with this one tiny facet of what I was talking about because you made an assumption about an industry you admit you don't known anything about.

You made a value judgement that was based on a presumption and it was massively insulting to someone who was part of that world for years.

Edit: To expound: Penny Arcade has a minor media empire these days because they treat the business seriously and parlayed it into more. And they pay it forward. They've brought other webcomicers under their umbrella, have a convention (PAX) and even have a reality web show (Strip Search) based on finding and rewarding good comicers. That is the kind of thought process we need in this business.

Edit2: Really, I just expect better from a place like this because I'm sure we've all had the 'Oh you self publish? Well that means I get to totally discount all the work and thought you put into it because I don't understand that things have changed in the last decade' thing.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> No, see you then did it again.
> 
> There _are_ professional webcomic ventures. There is an industry, there are revenue models and discussions about what makes a site more profitable. There are hobbyist webcomicers, yes. A majority of them are. But that doesn't mean there aren't professionals or people trying to become professionals and they have the exact same problem self published authors have in that you can make the best comic in the world with a slick site and maybe even a guy who does all your web stuff, but the problem is getting eyes on.
> 
> ...


You have issues on webcomics. I can't help that.

I assumed from your wording that it was not a professional venture. I even put a disclaimer in case I had interpreted your wording incorrectly.

I repeat, I am not biased either for or against webcomics, though now I could care less about yours. Get over it.


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## Michael Murray (Oct 31, 2011)

David Adams said:


> The only way you can make something like that work is if you do it incognito. That's how I would do it anyway (oddly, I've put some thought into exactly this...)


Are _you_ the one who purchased 170 TGOTD's last night


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

What I can see happening....it probably already is...is a successful indie author taking a great unknown book under his/her wing and promoting it to his/her social network.  And in return taking 10% or more of the cut.  It's basically what Oprah did with her book club (though I don't believe she took a cut). Like I said this is probably already happening.  I'd give Michael Connelly 10% of my profits if he promoted my book to his followers.  Hell yeah.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

pauldude000 said:


> You have issues on webcomics. I can't help that.
> 
> I assumed from your wording that it was not a professional venture. I even put a disclaimer in case I had interpreted your wording incorrectly.
> 
> I repeat, I am not biased either for or against webcomics, though now I could care less about yours. Get over it.


The issue is your attitude and utter disrespect.

No one here would take that kind of crap about self published books, so why should I take it over webcomics?


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> The issue is your attitude and utter disrespect.
> 
> No one here would take that kind of crap about self published books, so why should I take it over webcomics?


I will state that you are starting to earn my disrespect. You have personal issues on the subject, and I am not required to deal with them.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Anyway.

The thing is that different people need different things and different potential patrons are willing and able to give different things. I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel the way you do, Ashy, but don't bring it up because they either fear that they are asking too much, or fear that too much will be asked of them.

Kickstarter is a thing, but as has been said, sometimes people just need an actual mentor, or they need, say a cover with some good advice as to what to ask for and who to go to for it. Or they just need a push on the promotions front.

Ideally, there would be a service that could match writers in need with people willing to fill those needs based on merits they themselves perceive.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> It's your choice, Sheila, but I think your prior point was poignant, pointed, and perfect.


I just logged in to say thanks, and to apologize again. I'm in a down mood, and I think I took things in the most negative light based on that, and I didn't want to sideline the discussion.



> Sheila, you just sold a copy of every one of your titles in the UK. I look forward to reading them. And there's a hug on its way from 3,000 miles off . . . they tell me they arrive quite quickly in North Carolina.
> 
> Good luck
> Joe


You'll never know what this means to me. Especially the hug. I love you in a completely platonic way. I hope you find something in them worth the time and money, or at least view them as an object lesson of what not to do.

I've taken my stuff down. It was time. I gave myself two years to see if this was the answer to a dream I'd had since childhood. All I ever wanted to do was be a writer and sell stories.

I never planned to self-publish. I'd never even heard of it when I first started looking at the current publishing world, researching agents and query letters.

I never thought I would become rich and famous, so don't get me wrong. I hoped that I would be slowly building an audience and working towards a mid-list career.

But it's been more than two years, and telling myself that the last year and a half when my life has basically sucked is just making excuses. I try to keep up a good front, and tell myself things will work out and I'll start writing again. Every day that goes by is one more day I'm further from the words.

I think the mentoring idea is a good one. Lots of suggestions have been made that people shouldn't just dismiss out of hand. No man is an island. There's nothing wrong with having a little help.

I wish you all the best, I truly do. This is the best writer's forum I've ever found. I'll try to pop in sometimes and keep up. Even if I don't post, know that I'm celebrating your joys, and commiserating with your sorrows.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

pauldude000 said:


> You have issues on webcomics. I can't help that.
> 
> I assumed from your wording that it was not a professional venture. I even put a disclaimer in case I had interpreted your wording incorrectly.
> 
> I repeat, I am not biased either for or against webcomics, though now I could care less about yours. Get over it.


I don't see how the issues are his. You DID in fact make huge presumptions that assumed his webcomic was no different from fan fiction. But there are plenty of for-profit webcomics. Your default position is that webcomics are like fan fiction and therefore amateur. Your disclaimer at the end is about as effective as saying "I don't mean to offend..." before saying something terribly offensive.

Webcomics just have a different revenue model than selling individual copies. Don't know if you realize it, but plenty of sites draw revenue not from selling content, but from advertising (like KB, for example).

His points are valid. If Hugh Howey blogged about one of my books and told his fans how awesome it was, that one blog post would be worth more than him giving me $500 for a cover. (Hugh, I would totally love you if you blogged about me, but not like David loves you because that is a little creepy). Because you can't buy that kind of advertising easily. It doesn't matter how much you spend on production if nobody sees the finished product. If nobody knows about your books, you will sell zero copies regardless of how much you spend on editing.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm no Hugh Howey but I've been mentoring other self-pubbers for years. Right now I have a book on my desk that I've promised to read, critique, and possibly plug. It's a book that is currently floundering in the rankings. Even without reading it I can see some immediate changes needed to the cover and to her Amazon page, which because she has asked for my input, I'll tell her. If she gets the book up to par, I'll plug it for her to my readers because it is in the genre I know will appeal to them. She'll be one of many authors I've tried to help out over the years. I've read/critiqued manuscripts, brainstormed plotlines, offered marketing tips, and posted links to my sites. Sometimes my plugs will result in a huge movements of rankings. I've never asked for anything in return. {Though I do have a book launch coming up on Aug. 13 if anyone wants to plug!  }

I myself have a small group of authors (three of them are KB'ers) who I trust to go to for beta reading, ideas, questions, plot problems, cover critiques or just sometimes to burden them with my woes so that I don't have to post them publicly. I also have a mentor who is a huge seller and is known in the publishing world. She willingly gives me her time to critique my drafts as well as all the other things my other author friends do for me. I know that with her experience, if she says something of mine sucks, it does. If she thinks it will sell, I feel confident she is right.

It really is a _pay it forward _ type of thing and I think this goes on much more than people know.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Has Ashy been banned yet?  What a rabble-rouser!  


As for the topic at hand, if I wanted to mentor a few authors and bring them under my brand, I'd just create a few more pen names.  The more the merrier, I say.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

KayBratt said:


> I'm no Hugh Howey but I've been mentoring other self-pubbers for years. Right now I have a book on my desk that I've promised to read, critique, and possibly plug. It's a book that is currently floundering in the rankings. Even without reading it I can see some immediate changes needed to the cover and to her Amazon page, which because she has asked for my input, I'll tell her. If she gets the book up to par, I'll plug it for her to my readers because it is in the genre I know will appeal to them. She'll be one of many authors I've tried to help out over the years. I've read/critiqued manuscripts, brainstormed plotlines, offered marketing tips, and posted links to my sites. Sometimes my plugs will result in a huge movements of rankings. I've never asked for anything in return. {Though I do have a book launch coming up on Aug. 13 if anyone wants to plug!  }
> 
> I myself have a small group of authors (three of them are KB'ers) who I trust to go to for beta reading, ideas, questions, plot problems, cover critiques or just sometimes to burden them with my woes so that I don't have to post them publicly. I also have a mentor who is a huge seller and is known in the publishing world. She willingly gives me her time to critique my drafts as well as all the other things my other author friends do for me. I know that with her experience, if she says something of mine sucks, it does. If she thinks it will sell, I feel confident she is right.
> 
> It really is a _pay it forward _ type of thing and I think this goes on much more than people know.


I think that's awesome. I just feel, however, that there are many new authors who never even realize that this is possible. It would be cool, IMHO, if there was something more formal for them; ultimately, I think it would help us all be better at what we do.

Just my two cents...


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

swolf said:


> Has Ashy been banned yet? What a rabble-rouser!
> 
> As for the topic at hand, if I wanted to mentor a few authors and bring them under my brand, I'd just create a few more pen names. The more the merrier, I say.


Erp! Apparently not!


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

Ashy said:


> I think that's awesome. I just feel, however, that there are many new authors who never even realize that this is possible. It would be cool, IMHO, if there was something more formal for them; ultimately, I think it would help us all be better at what we do.
> 
> Just my two cents...


I agree. And to be honest, the more books I write means the busier I get and I've had to turn down numerous requests for reviews/critiques in the last year or so. My first priority has to be my own work and sometimes it's really hard to say no but I have to. I'd love to help everyone who asks me, but it's not possible.

So yes, something more formal and less 'behind the scenes' would really benefit new authors. Again, even projects like the book The Naked Truth About Self Publishing , as well as having a KBoards forum gives a much better launch to newbies than many of us had. The tools and information are now easily accessible out there, as well as an amazing online support system.

My own intro to the indie world was a lonely and terrifying affair, indeed. I would have loved to have had a mentor at that time.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

I've thought about this a little. Done right, I think it would be fairly indistinguishable from what a publisher does.


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

KayBratt said:


> I agree. And to be honest, the more books I write means the busier I get and I've had to turn down numerous requests for reviews/critiques in the last year or so. My first priority has to be my own work and sometimes it's really hard to say no but I have to. I'd love to help everyone who asks me, but it's not possible.


Precisely. While I am ALL for paying it forward, this was the primary reason why I suggested that the "mentor" in this sort of system would get a % return for their investment. YOUR time is precious. YOU need to continue to write and make a living. As such YOU should (if you choose) be compensated for helping a newbie.



KayBratt said:


> So yes, something more formal and less 'behind the scenes' would really benefit new authors. Again, even projects like the book The Naked Truth About Self Publishing , as well as having a KBoards forum gives a much better launch to newbies than many of us had. The tools and information are now easily accessible out there, as well as an amazing online support system.
> 
> My own intro to the indie world was a lonely and terrifying affair, indeed. I would have loved to have had a mentor at that time.


Again, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Something like a newbies guide to becoming a self publisher - a wiki, perhaps? Maybe with a conjoining book.... Hurm....


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Glynn James said:


> I don't think the financial help is the most important. Plugging someone's book on your own site, or to your own readers is far more powerful and helpful long-term.
> I do already, even with the limited (but growing) readership that I have, and it has helped other writers, but I haven't done as much as I probably could.
> 
> If I look back at my reading list, I read about 90% Indie, yet I've only mentioned a few of them to my readers.
> ...


I think it depends on who you are, and where you are in your indy journey. If you're just starting out, maybe you need information and direction. Mid-way, maybe you need funding, but later on, maybe you need a lift in the social media/marketing department...

To build on your idea, however, just think about what we (the kboards population) could do if we EACH recommended 3 books of our peers to our social networks...


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I think the only way this could work would be if you do something like what Bob Mayer is doing with Cool Gus publishing. It's a business. They don't dabble here and there, it's a clear cut relationship.

Other than that, I think the mentoring and paying it forward happens organically when readers and other writers respond to what you've written.

It all comes back to having a story that really resonates. I just read on Marie Force's Self-Pub loop this am (a great resource for self-pub info), something Marie posted in response to a question about promotion and the gist of what she said what that the best way to increase sales and awareness is to focus most of your attention on making your book as good as it can be.....study the people who are hitting the lists, read their books and try to learn why so many people are responding to those books by buying and recommending them.

Gail McHugh is a brand new Indie author whose first two books are on the NYTimes list right now....Ryan Winfield is another newer author who is hitting the lists by writing books that are getting talked about and shared on social media, simply because people are excited about what they've read.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> I just logged in to say thanks, and to apologize again. I'm in a down mood, and I think I took things in the most negative light based on that, and I didn't want to sideline the discussion.
> 
> You'll never know what this means to me. Especially the hug. I love you in a completely platonic way. I hope you find something in them worth the time and money, or at least view them as an object lesson of what not to do.
> 
> ...


Wait... did I read this right? Are you giving up on writing?


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

I'm still relatively new here, but I had simply assumed that - just as in the real world - mentoring was taking place on KB: people were making connections, getting to know each other, offering advice, etc.  Not always in the public forums, but surely behind the scenes at the very least.

On top of that, KBers already tend to lend each other moral and fiscal support.  Every time someone here is approaching a milestone, I marvel at how others come forward and help them by purchasing a copy of their book, downloading a free version, what have you. 

In short, I like the spirit of your post, but I think it seeks to formalize something that is already taking place organically and without the exchange of dollars. (Of course, if dollars were changing hands, I'd rather flip the script and slip some moolah to some of the other big sellers with the understanding that they'd tweet/blog just four little words: "Buy this guy's books!")


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