# Wayward Self, Book 1 now BANNED on Amazon.com



## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

I guess the anti-erotica axe has finally swung my way . Recently made a new (tame as hell) description for my book just as a refresh (of my own decision), so I was forced to go through the re-publish/review process all over again. This was the end result:










And of course, they sent me the standard cookie-cutter response with no specifics whatsoever:



> Hello,
> 
> We're contacting you regarding the following title:
> 
> ...


To which I replied:



> Can I have the specifics as to why my book was removed? This book has been
> on sale at Amazon.com since May 10, 2013 and has been in the KDP select
> program at least 2 or 3 times since then. None of the content changed when
> I submitted the book again on Sunday other than fresh book description I
> created.


Which triggered them to *apologize* why they could not give me any specifics, LMAO:



> As stated in our content guidelines, we reserve the right to determine what content we consider to be appropriate. This content includes both the cover art image and the content within the book. Content that is violation of these guidelines will not be offered for sale.
> 
> *I'm sorry, but we can't offer any additional insight or action on this matter.*
> 
> Best Regards,


So basically even if I go through and flower every thing up, they still won't tell me what my book is in violation of if they decide not to accept the revisions, AND I lose all of the many nice reviews my book received. They won't even take into account that my book was kicking arse pretty hard at one point:










But whatever. Even more crazy is the fact that my second installment of this series is still live. I'm guessing all it will take is to hit the "publish" button on that one again to kill it.

Wayward Self, Book 1 is currently listed for free on iTunes and Smashwords.com for anyone interested. Draft2Digital has you do a minimum of .99 for B&N, where it is also listed. I am definitely heading over to Selena Kitt's new website and signing up over there as well.

Just thought you guys would be interested in knowing that the crusade against erotica writers is still in full swing at Amazon.com.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm sure that there are many others better at figuring out what amorphous and vague thing it MIGHT be than myself.  But I just wanted to say that I sympathize.  And that ... sad as this is, even if you fix it to one reviewer's satisfaction another might come alone and bong in again. I've had to do that with books that have NO sexual content about four times.  But still if you can figure it out, maybe you can get it back and hope they don't bong it again.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I felt bad for you until you used the 'R' word. 

Not cool.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Is the use of that particular word necessary?


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

K.B. Nelson said:


> I felt bad for you until you used the 'R' word.
> 
> Not cool.


Changed it.

No offense, but that is the whole point of this thread (Amazon censoring what they deem "inappropriate").

No matter what you write, SOMEONE is always going to be offended.

Forgive me, I grew up in the 80's when everyone realized the use of "that word" was not taken in the literal sense.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank you! I'm sure the word pops up in fiction, used by characters that we don't condone, but it reflects very poorly when you are the one saying it, and not through the lens of a characters mouth. 

Now, I don't understand Amazons arbitrary decision making and I think it's quite ridiculous at times. You should check out a thread a little further down, an erotica author has started a platform for erotica ebooks.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

I was born in 1961. Times change. People can, too.


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

K.T. Parks said:


> Forgive me, I grew up in the 80's when everyone realized the use of "that word" was not taken in the literal sense.


  I use it all the time still, and yeah, this really sucks (someday this word, too, will be banned). I'd hate to have my erotica pulled, and it's just not right that Amazon won't even give specifics


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

K.B. Nelson said:


> You should check out a thread a little further down, an erotica author has started a platform for erotica ebooks.


Yes, I plan to:



K.T. Parks said:


> I am definitely heading over to Selena Kitt's new website and signing up over there as well.


Thanks!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

They might be looking at PI again and you got caught.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> They might be looking at PI again and you got caught.


There is no PI in my books. There is a "step sister" character, but they are not "blood" related. No PI there. They don't even come in contact with one another in this book other than her telling him to take the trashcan to the curb, lol.

It wouldn't have gotten listed on B&N, iTunes, or Smashwords, as they do not allow PI either.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm skimming the Smashwords description. I wonder if it's the "high school" part.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Isn't that what PI is?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

K.B. Nelson said:


> Isn't that what PI is?


It is. Maybe the step-siblings don't do it, thus not PI?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

K.T. Parks said:


> There is no PI in my books. There is a "step sister" character, but they are not "blood" related. No PI there. They don't even come in contact with one another in this book other than her telling him to take the trashcan to the curb, lol.
> 
> It wouldn't have gotten listed on B&N, iTunes, or Smashwords, as they do not allow PI either.


A dude sleeping with his step-sister the definition of pseudo-incest (PI).


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

K.B. Nelson said:


> Isn't that what PI is?


Wiki has it as "step relatives", but I always assumed it only applied to blood kin. Wiki also has it as "a sexual activity", but as I mentioned above none of this is going on between them.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> Wiki has it as "step relatives", but I always assumed it only applied to blood kin. Wiki also has it as "a sexual activity", but as I mentioned above none of this is going on between them.


Then it's the high school setting.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It is. Maybe the step-siblings don't do it, thus not PI?


Right, there is no sexual activity between them.


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

K.T. Parks said:


> Changed it.
> 
> No offense, but that is the whole point of this thread (Amazon censoring what they deem "inappropriate").
> 
> ...


I grew up in the 80s and I have a son with a significant cognitive delay. That dreaded "r" word. Am I allowed to be offended? Or would be that too literal?

Know your audience, and be professional. I'm sure you'll figure this out soon. There have been other books banned from Amazon recently that have been allowed back after re-working.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Then it's the high school setting.


Yes, but the description of my book even says



> images of rappers popping bottles on the decks of luxury yachts, surrounded by shapely, scantily clad models sipping expensive champagne poolside, have filled* this 18yr olds' head *with dreams of riches and stardom. It's the fall semester of senior year and Devin dreads the idea of having to go off to college and ending up a 9-to-5 stiff.


My book even states inside:



> *NOTE: ALL CHARACTERS DEPICTED IN THIS EROTICA NOVELETTE ARE AGE 18 AND OLDER.*


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Your book description strongly implies the brother and step-sister do have sex.



K.T. Parks said:


> Wiki has it as "step relatives", but I always assumed it only applied to blood kin.


Step, but blood? That doesn't make sense.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

True, but the setting is high school. That's going to give flags.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> Your book description strongly implies the brother and step-sister do have sex.


I challenge anyone to show this. The book is available for free. Anyone is welcome to quote where in my book it implies "the bother and sister *do have sex*".

The only thing I've implied is that she makes sexual advanced towards him, nothing more.



Monique said:


> Step, but blood? That doesn't make sense.


Sure it does. If your father were to marry a woman who already had a son, the two of you would not be "blood" since you do not share the same mother and father.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> True, but the setting is high school. That's going to give flags.


I hear you, but as I have stated before, I have re-published this book on Amazon.com MULTIPLE time since May 2013 when I made changes to the price, corrected errors, etc. It has also been in the KDP Select program at least 2-3 times.

Food for thought: how did shows like *Dawson's Creek* and *Bevely Hills 90210* survive for so long? That show was raunchy as heck!

From Wiki (Beverly Hills 90210):

_"The show followed the lives of a *group of teenagers* living in the upscale, star-studded community of Beverly Hills, California and *attending the fictitious West Beverly Hills High Schoo*l and, subsequently, the fictitious California University after graduation...From Donna *losing her virginity and Kelly's shocking pregnancy *to David's destructive mental illness and a frightening hostage situation on the C.U. campus, surviving their *senior year* will be the toughest test they've faced yet."_


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## ecg52 (Apr 29, 2013)

I've had one of my erotica books end up in the adult dungeon and was very happy to get it out of there. I'm scared to do anything to the erotic books under my pen name for fear of a mad reviewer banning them or throwing them in the dungeon. Even though I think some of them could use a better blurb, I'm not touching them. They'll remain as they are with no price changes, cover changes, or blurb changes.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> I challenge anyone to show this. The book is available for free. Anyone is welcome to quote where in my book it implies "the bother and sister *do have sex*".
> 
> The only thing I've implied is that she makes sexual advanced towards him, nothing more.
> 
> Sure it does. If your father were to marry a woman who already had a son, the two of you would not be "blood" since you do not share the same mother and father.


Sigh.

First, I also thought the step-siblings had sex, since that's how I read your description:



> especially his foxy lustful 19-year-old step sister who believes she is very close to breaking down his barrier of resistance to her immensely erotic sexual advances.


Second, half-siblings are different than step-siblings.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> I hear you, but as I have stated before, I have re-published this book on Amazon.com MULTIPLE time since May 2013 when I made changes to the price, corrected errors, etc. It has also been in the KDP Select program at least 2-3 times.


And so you got caught this time.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

You can't have anyone related in any way in the same erotic book.
Also, people who have sex in your books cannot be in the same room.
Or state.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

GearPress Steve said:


> You can't have anyone related in any way in the same erotic book.
> Also, people who have sex in your books cannot be in the same room.
> Or state.


That looks like his second book


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree that there is strong implication in the blurb that there will be hanky panky between the step siblings. That implication in that paragraph is way more than her telling him to take the trash out. As a reader it is what I would expect, step sister and step brother. Its implied, strongly. The whole blurb seems to be leading up to sexual encounters between them after all the other stuff. 
And if some of us read that implication, than someone at amazon does too.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

K.T. Parks said:


> I challenge anyone to show this. The book is available for free. Anyone is welcome to quote where in my book it implies "the bother and sister *do have sex*".
> 
> The only thing I've implied is that she makes sexual advanced towards him, nothing more.


You also didn't say he had sex with anyone at all, but it's erotica, so.... You can pretend it doesn't, but your description does strongly imply they're the ones that do it. They're the only people mentioned by name, she wants him, he's horny. It's not a big leap. *shrug*



K.T. Parks said:


> Sure it does. If your father were to marry a woman who already had a son, the two of you would not be "blood" since you do not share the same mother and father.


Yes, that's step, but NOT blood. You said you thought PI was step-siblings, but only those who were blood. Step and blood...different things.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I agree that there is strong implication in the blurb that there will be hanky panky between the step siblings. That implication in that paragraph is way more than her telling him to take the trash out. As a reader it is what I would expect, step sister and step brother. Its implied, strongly. The whole blurb seems to be leading up to sexual encounters between them after all the other stuff.
> And if some of us read that implication, than someone at amazon does too.


Yup. Add in high school setting and all that language, and it sounds like something that'll get flagged eventually.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

GearPress Steve said:


> You can't have anyone related in any way in the same erotic book.
> *Also, people who have sex in your books cannot be in the same room.
> Or state.*


So it would seem, hahaha 

I would again like to bump this notion though:

Food for thought: how did shows like *Dawson's Creek *and *Beverly Hills 90210* survive for so long? That show was raunchy as heck!

From Wiki (Beverly Hills 90210):

"The show followed the lives of a group of *teenagers* living in the upscale, star-studded community of Beverly Hills, California and attending the *fictitious West Beverly Hills High School* and, subsequently, the fictitious California University after graduation...From *Donna losing her virginity and Kelly's shocking pregnancy* to David's destructive mental illness and a frightening hostage situation on the C.U. campus, surviving their *senior year* will be the toughest test they've faced yet."

Maybe if I had better connections then, lol?

Doesn't Sidney have sex in the movie "Scream"? She was in High School too.

But I digress...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> So it would seem, hahaha
> 
> I would again like to bump this notion though:
> 
> ...


...that's a joke, right? You DO actually understand the difference, right?


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> Yes, that's step, but NOT blood. You said you thought PI was step-siblings, but only those who were blood. Step and blood...different things.


I'm not sure were we are in disagreement then. I was only quoting Wiki:

_"Incest is sexual activity between family members and close relatives.[1][2] This typically includes sexual activity between people in a consanguineous relationship (blood relations), and sometimes those related by affinity, such as members of the same household, step relatives, those related by adoption or marriage, or members of the same clan or lineage."_


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't think you understand what pseudo incest is.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

Erotica is graphic, thus being the equivalent to pornography in the written form. Those teen shows weren't pornographic.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> ...that's a joke, right? You DO actually understand the difference, right?


I guess I don't ()

My fictional characters are *stated as being 18 and older*.

Those shows I listed have teen characters (I don't know their ages in the TV show) in sexually suggestive situations.

My book and their show are *both fictional*. The difference being that *I market my books to adults*. Those TV shows' main demographics where teen audiences.

What am I missing?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

K.T. Parks said:


> What am I missing?


Graphic sex.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

K.T. Parks said:


> What am I missing?


That you're selling your books on Amazon (or trying to), not selling a TV show. Amazon's rules, not a network's.

Betsy


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Monique said:


> I don't think you understand what pseudo incest is.


Pseudo > False

False (or "fake", "Implied") sex with relatives.

What am I missing?

The book has described the step sister as making "sexual advances", but call me a liar if you can quote anywhere in the book where they are having sex.

Maybe I am not grasping the "Pseudo Incest" in terms of fiction then??


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> That you're selling your books on Amazon (or trying to), not selling a TV show. Amazon's rules, not a network's.
> 
> Betsy


No argument with you there Senora Betsy! Which is why I said:



K.T. Parks said:


> Maybe if I had better connections then, lol?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

If they are not having sex in the book, why are you advertising in the blurb that they leading to that? That is like false advertising. Why even put that in the blurb if that is not the essence of the erotic story. The blurb is written like I said so it leads to the kink of step brother and step sister. 

And to compare erotica with a teen tv show and not knowing the difference, well I am just confused at that. 

But hey, don't take anything anyone says here, leave your book blocked if you are happy with that.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Since you don't have better connections, and are unlikely to acquire connections good enough to change Amazon's mind, you need to accept that you need to make changes and focus on what needs to be changed, not argue for the status quo, which is that your book is unsellable on Amazon.  That is, if you want to sell on Amazon.  If you don't want to change anything, give up on Amazon.  It's that simple.

Betsy


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

This is like watching an updated "Who's On First" with erotica instead of baseball.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Third base!


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Atunah said:


> If they are not having sex in the book, why are you advertising in the blurb that they leading to that? That is like false advertising. Why even put that in the blurb if *that is not the essence of the erotic story*.


Well, it is erotica after all. Regardless of what some people may think, you can write erotica without sex scenes:

_*"Erotica* (from the Greek ἔρως, eros "desire") is any artistic work that deals substantively with erotically stimulating or sexually arousing subject matter."_

The step sister is NOT the main focus of my book! She is only one character of many. How did you draw that inference from (part) of my blurb?

_As the erotic ladies of Sinclair High begin to catch wind of his millionaire dreams, they soon start to formulate their own strategy to align themselves with his journey; some of whom seem to only be interested in using him as an instrument for their own personal carnal desires; *especially his foxy lustful 19-year-old step sister who believes she is very close to breaking down his barrier of resistance to her immensely erotic sexual advances.*_

She can tease and make sexual advances to him all day long. I DO NOT have to make them have sex in order for it to be erotica, LOL!

You can write erotica without having sex scenes. Selena Kitt is the master at this. Just read the first half of _*Babysitting the Baumgartners *_


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Oh no, baseball talk.  . Me clueless.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KT,

what were your expectations and goals in starting this thread?

Betsy


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> KT,
> 
> what were your expectations and goals in starting this thread?
> 
> Betsy


It was only to point out that my book was the most recent of erotica authors to banned even thought it has been selling on Amazon since May 2013 and has been re-published AND reviewed many times since then, even spending 2-3 stints in KDP select. This is a hot issue right now. Selena Kitt even launched a new erotica distribution website and the topic was posted on Kboards earlier today.

There were no other ulterior motives. My initial post conveyed the message (warning) I was trying to get out to other erotica author. I just decided to stick around and answer questions and comments. I could just as well be watching TV or something.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> Pseudo > False
> 
> False (or "fake", "Implied") sex with relatives.
> 
> ...


The "pseudo" doesn't refer to fake or almost sex. It refers to the familial relationship between the two, meaning it includes step-siblings as well as blood siblings. Pseudo incest is sexual relations (or in this case implications of) between people who are commonly seen as family, although not blood related. So, eg. it's not okay for step-dad to boink step-daughter (or try to) even though they are not blood related.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

K.T. Parks said:


> Well, it is erotica after all. Regardless of what some people may think, you can write erotica without sex scenes:
> 
> _*"Erotica* (from the Greek ἔρως, eros "desire") is any artistic work that deals substantively with erotically stimulating or sexually arousing subject matter."_
> 
> ...


What you don't seem to be getting is that it doesn't matter whether these two particular characters have sex or not - your blurb purposefully implies that they probably will. That is more than enough to get your book flagged. You keep asking "What am I missing?" In my opinion, this is the number one answer.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Monique said:


> Third base!


Takes on a whole new meaning in this context, doesn't it?


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Donna White Glaser said:


> The "pseudo" doesn't refer to fake or almost sex. It refers to the familial relationship between the two, meaning it includes step-siblings as well as blood siblings. Pseudo incest is sexual relations (*or in this case implications of*) between people who are commonly seen as family, although not blood related. So, eg. it's not okay for step-dad to boink step-daughter (or try to) even though they are not blood related.


If that is the case then I will admit to being unaware of that fact. I thought it explicitly meant the act of relatives engaging in sexual acts.

Would have been a whole lot easier if Amazon explained this, no (lol)?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, I thought perhaps you were looking for some insight into why your book might have been banned, which is what people are offering.  If you're not interested in those insights, it's probably best if everyone move on to more fruitful endeavors.

Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

LeeBee said:


> Takes on a whole new meaning in this context, doesn't it?


LOL. I was thinking the same thing.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> OK, I thought perhaps you were looking for some insight into why your book might have been banned, which is what people are offering. If you're not interested in those insights, it's probably best if everyone move on to more fruitful endeavors.
> 
> Betsy


Hopefully I haven't given that indication (that I was not interested in those insights). This has been very educational for me and many others I'm sure. I looked at the entire thread as a very healthy debate.

We're not in trouble, are we?

Again, the point of my thread was to "inform". In that process I received a ton of feed back and learned something new in the process. Couldn't have asked for more. I now have to look at my series from an entirely different perspective.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

No, no one's in trouble.   It just seems like nothing is being accomplished here.  Glad to hear that you appreciate the feedback you're getting.

Betsy


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

What? Are there to be no whips? I mean, this is a thread about erotica!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

LeeBee said:


> What? Are there to be no whips? I mean, this is a thread about erotica!


No whips, no sex, no cigar.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

No whips.  My leather moderator's uniform is at the cleaners.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No, no one's in trouble.  It just seems like nothing is being accomplished here. Glad to hear that you appreciate the feedback you're getting.
> 
> Betsy


Any time I post in a thread, nothing is being accomplished. I'll work on that...


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No whips. My leather moderator's uniform is at the cleaners.


Spandex would be an acceptable substitute.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Any time I post in a thread, nothing is being accomplished. I'll work on that...


Or you could just make it a trademark, as I have.

Of course, then I'd have to make an effort to defend my trademark and sue you, so consider that when making your decision.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No, no one's in trouble.  It just seems like nothing is being accomplished here. Glad to hear that you appreciate the feedback you're getting.
> 
> Betsy


It from the last few posts it looks like the kids have been put to bed and the Trolls are coming out to play. Feel free to lock this thread at anytime, lol. I would hate for all of the knowledge other imparted with this evening to get lost in the mire of trolling.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

K.T. Parks said:


> It from the last few posts it looks like the kids have been put to bed and the Trolls are coming out to play. Feel free to lock this thread at anytime, lol.


I wouldn't equate levity with trolling. That said, I have some goats to scare off a bridge.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Boyd said:


> to quote Ace Ventura...
> 
> ExSqueeze me?
> 
> ...


There was nothing wrong with your post Boyd. It was golden, in fact:



Boyd said:


> First impression from somebody who's btdt is that your book's cover has her doing a hand bra... will get you filtered or banned depending on whether or not India is fielding the calls that night...
> 
> Secondly... Even a hint of step sib sex, implied or not can get you smacked down...
> 
> ...


I was getting at the "whips, cigars, and baseball" posts/comments.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> No whips. My leather moderator's uniform is at the cleaners.


Yoga pants anyone?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KT, 

you're new, so you don't know this, but "troll" is a four letter word here.  We don't accuse people of trolling.  At the same time, threads here will go slightly off topic from time to time.  It's my job to bring them back to center if they don't come back by themselves.  Your own posts have been very light-hearted at times in this thread.  You can either join in, or respond to the posts that interest you, and leave the rest to me.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> KT,
> 
> you're new, so you don't know this, but "troll" is a four letter word here. We don't accuse people of trolling.
> Betsy
> KB Mod


Sorry, did not know that. I apologize. I am part of other forums outside of writing and that term is used commonly.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

K.T. Parks said:


> Sorry, did not know that. I apologize. I am part of other forums outside of writing and that term is used commonly.


I think Betsy means that the term is not used on this forum to describe light-hearted joking and occasional digression from the topic. If anyone had actually been trolling you in this thread, it would have had a much different tone, and Betsy would have swung her mighty axe. Or whatever weapon is not currently at the drycleaners.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

If Amazon is banning books due to PI in the content, then that's something completely new.  In my opinion, it has to be something else. 

I'll take a quick look at the book.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

K.T. Parks said:


> Sorry, did not know that. I apologize. I am part of other forums outside of writing and that term is used commonly.


A lot of what goes on in other forums does not go on here. Be sure to read our Forum Decorum. Name calling is not allowed in general, and I've seen the label applied too often to people who posted here in good faith.

Betsy


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## NicoleSwan (Oct 2, 2011)

swolf said:


> If Amazon is banning books due to PI in the *content*, then that's something completely new. In my opinion, it has to be something else.
> 
> I'll take a quick look at the book.


Bolded for importance. Agreed. "One Way Ticket" was put in to the dungeon a few months ago, but a change of the blurb, removing all PI implications, got it back out despite the fact that the _content_ was still reasonably likely to be consider PI.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> If Amazon is banning books due to PI in the content, then that's something completely new. In my opinion, it has to be something else.
> 
> I'll take a quick look at the book.


VERY GLAD to see you have joined the conversation swolf! I've learned a lot from reading a lot of your older posts when I got started in writing erotica.

The problem is that Amazon is so vague you cannot say whether it is one thing or another.

Take Selena's book for instance. The "Baumgartner's" book had no PI in it anywhere, and no high seniors (the main character was 19), yet her book still got pulled. They didn't tell her why they pulled it. She chose to change the title and the cover.

But what if she had done all of those things and they STILL rejected it?

Selena sells very well, so admittedly she has more clout than I. But I am still pointing out that even if I did an entire re-vamp (no 18yr high school seniors, PI), there is still no way of knowing if Amazon will reject it or not.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I will look at the book next week but if the blurb was quoted correctly that is probably it.  Since it does read like they eventually have sex.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

NicoleSwan said:


> Bolded for importance. Agreed. "One Way Ticket" was put in to the dungeon a few months ago, but a change of the blurb, removing all PI implications, got it back out despite the fact that the _content_ was still reasonably likely to be consider PI.


Thanks for posting Nicole. I may end up trying this method as well.

Ironically, I checked multiple time via the link Selena Kitt posted that takes you to the site where you can check to see if your title is in the "Adult Dungeon" (the red "ADULT" next to the title of the book). I never was in the Dungeon at any point.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

My guess is the book was banned because you have your main character having sex with a high school junior. 

A reader probably noticed that, and contacted Amazon.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> My guess is the book was banned because you have your main character having sex with a high school junior.
> 
> A reader probably noticed that, and contacted Amazon.


If you are referring to the back story, it takes place late-April, early May (time frame is mentioned in the book). They were 18 when they met. I believe her age (Donna) was mentioned as well. If not, then I guess I need to write it in. I thought my *"NOTE: ALL CHARACTERS DEPICTED IN THIS EROTICA NOVELETTE ARE AGE 18 AND OLDER."* left no room to suggest otherwise? It is right there at the beginning of the book. You can't read the story without scrolling past it first.

So there will end up being 19 around April/May Spring Senior year. It is not unheard of.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Regardless of your disclaimer at the beginning, this paragraph led me to believe she's younger than 18:



> I also found out the reason why I didn't see her around school often. Donna was part of the
> co-op program for students that wanted to work while going to school. This is usually reserved
> for seniors, but our school makes an exception for juniors who are in the honors program. It
> turned out that we only ran into one another that day because she had taken the day off of work
> ...


If she's a junior and 18, you probably want to make that clearer. Even then it may not fly with Amazon. Your best bet is to make her a senior like your MC.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> Regardless of your disclaimer at the beginning, this paragraph lead me to believe she's younger than 18:
> 
> If she's a junior and 18, you probably want to make that clearer. Even then it may not fly with Amazon. Your best bet is to make her a senior like your MC.


The MC is a junior (and 1 in the back story as well. Both are same age, same grade.

I guess I need to write in something like "it turns out that we both had turned 18 on the same day earlier that week".

Just when I thought I was going to bed 

Thanks for taking the time to look over my book though! Very much appreciated!


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

K.T. Parks said:


> The MC is a junior (and 1 in the back story as well. Both are same age, same grade.


I think that regardless of their ages, having eleventh graders participating in graphic sex isn't going to fly with Amazon.

Just my two cent. Good luck.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> I think that regardless of their ages, having eleventh graders participating in graphic sex isn't going to fly with Amazon.
> 
> Just my two cent. Good luck.


Thanks, but as I stated multiple times with Selena Kitt's situation, *NOBODY* knows what will fly with Amazon. It's anyone's guess:



> As stated in our content guidelines, *we reserve the right to determine what content we consider to be appropriate.* This content includes both the cover art image and the content within the book. Content that is violation of these guidelines will not be offered for sale.
> 
> I'm sorry, but *we can't offer any additional insight or action on this matter.*
> 
> Best Regards,


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

K.T. Parks said:


> Thanks, but as I stated multiple times with Selena Kitt's situation, NOBODY knows what will fly with Amazon. It's anyone's guess:


Yes, but in the case of this book, it appears you are skirting dangerously close to known bannable content offenses. It's not like there are absolutely no questionable calls here - there's a glaring one in the blurb, and another in the actual content. Neither of them is known for certain to be the cause of the banning, but either one is a likely candidate.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

K.T. Parks said:


> *NOBODY* knows what will fly with Amazon.


I think a lot of people in this thread have a pretty good idea what *WON'T* fly with Amazon and they've been trying to get that idea across.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm skimming the Smashwords description. I wonder if it's the "high school" part.


I can all-but-guarantee that it's the high school part.

The first run of my erotica shorts were all blocked because they were high school students (high school seniors are 18 in the region of Australia that it was set). I fixed this by search-replacing High School with College, and making sure to have each character state their age at the beginning as part of their introduction.

Do not ever even mention high school, because it seems like something their bots pick up on and crush with the weight of a thousand suns.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I can all-but-guarantee that it's the high school part.
> 
> The first run of my erotica shorts were all blocked because they were high school students (high school seniors are 18 in the region of Australia that it was set). I fixed this by search-replacing High School with College, and making sure to have each character state their age at the beginning as part of their introduction.
> 
> Do not ever even mention high school, because it seems like something their bots pick up on and crush with the weight of a thousand suns.


I was thinking of your situation when I typed this. Yup, high school = minors.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I was thinking of your situation when I typed this. Yup, high school = minors.


I graduated at 17 without skipping any grades. They wanted to double-advance me twice but my mom wouldn't let them because she didn't want me to be so much younger than my high school classmates.

Most of my classmates were all 17, so wouldn't that mean that it would be generally normal that a high school junior is more than likely 16 years old?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am thinking KT' s first language is not English.
I bet if she changed the blurb to lose the implied sex and changes high school to college she should be ok.
I was 16 first semester my junior year turned 17 shortly after the second semester started.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I am thinking KT' s first language is not English.
> I bet if she changed the blurb to lose the implied sex and changes high school to college she should be ok.
> I was 16 first semester my junior year turned 17 shortly after the second semester started.


According to this bio, "K.T. Parks lives in Houston, TX and attends the University of Houston Main Campus." While not a sure sign of a second language, I think he's probably first language English.

I'm not sure what a junior is (I'm Canadian), but high school is full of minors. Even if the characters aren't minors themselves, the setting is already pushing it enough.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> According to this bio, "K.T. Parks lives in Houston, TX and attends the University of Houston Main Campus." While not a sure sign of a second language, I think he's probably first language English.
> 
> I'm not sure what a junior is (I'm Canadian), but high school is full of minors. Even if the characters aren't minors themselves, the setting is already pushing it enough.


Junior is grade 11. Senior is grade 12.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> According to this bio, "K.T. Parks lives in Houston, TX and attends the University of Houston Main Campus." While not a sure sign of a second language, I think he's probably first language English.
> 
> I'm not sure what a junior is (I'm Canadian), but high school is full of minors. Even if the characters aren't minors themselves, the setting is already pushing it enough.


I was thinking the style of his writing. Oh and when I went to college, there were numerous foreign students. I am guessing most universities have foreign students. So either of us could be right but he doesn't sound like a native Texan.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm not sure what a junior is (I'm Canadian), but high school is full of minors. Even if the characters aren't minors themselves, the setting is already pushing it enough.


As LB states, a high school junior is grade 11. I started first grade at age 5, and I was 15 in grade 11 and turned 16 before the end of the school year. My contemporaries were either my age or perhaps a year older. So in grade 11 we were all 15/16 or 16/17 at the oldest.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

David Adams said:


> I can all-but-guarantee that it's the high school part.
> 
> The first run of my erotica shorts were all blocked because they were high school students (high school seniors are 18 in the region of Australia that it was set). I fixed this by search-replacing High School with College, and making sure to have each character state their age at the beginning as part of their introduction.
> 
> Do not ever even mention high school, because it seems like something their bots pick up on and crush with the weight of a thousand suns.


My only motivation to have started this off at high school senior year was the same as most Hollywood films that do such: longevity (or "Sequels" in Hollywood's case, i.e. "Transformers", "Scream", "American Pie", etc.). I wanted this series to start from there and have the possibility to run though college and beyond.

But duly noted; at least if you want to to sell on Amazon. Thank you for providing your experience with this.



cinisajoy said:


> So either of us could be right but *he doesn't sound like a native Texan.*


This is just crazy, lol. How does a "native Texan" "sound" via fiction writing? Or even in (online) forum writing at that! Did I forget to include my Texan twang somewhere in all of my posts?

And you've probably never been to Texas, I assume? I'm sure your impression is that we are all down here riding horses and wearing ten gallon hats (well, it IS rodeo season, lol).

Oh, "YEEE HAW!" 



GearPress Steve said:


> As LB states, a high school junior is grade 11. I started first grade at age 5, and I was 15 in grade 11 and turned 16 before the end of the school year. My contemporaries were either my age or perhaps a year older. So in grade 11 we were all 15/16 or 16/17 at the oldest.


I personally know of at least 3 people who turned 19 late in their spring semester of senior year (April/May time frame) due to their parents starting them in school later (by choice). Not the norm, but definitely not unheard of.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

K.T. Parks said:


> I guess I don't ()
> 
> My fictional characters are *stated as being 18 and older*.
> 
> ...


Tons of Young Adult books have sex and oral or whatever too, but the purpose of erotica is to titillate with graphic content and language, so there's a huge difference, as far as every site in the world is concerned.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

K.T. Parks said:


> This is just crazy, lol. How does a "native Texan" "sound" via fiction writing? Or even in (online) forum writing at that! Did I forget to include my Texan twang somewhere in all of my posts?


On the most recent writing course I did with Dean Wesley Smith, he said that he met a few fellow writers who told him they could work out where an author was from (state, etc.) by reading some of their work - and they proved it to him.


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## Jash (Apr 4, 2013)

K.T. Parks said:


> Thanks, but as I stated multiple times with Selena Kitt's situation, *NOBODY* knows what will fly with Amazon.


Yes they do. Swolf does, Selena does, many other erotica authors do. Not with 100% certainty, but pretty much. While there are occasional surpises they have been fairly consistant about enforcing their secret rules since the S hit the F last year. This doesn't mean it won't change in the future, but for now we have a pretty good idea of what will and won't fly. Wheter or not your block _should_ have been blocked and all the semantic arguments about siblings and high school students and ages don't change why it was blocked and what you need to do if you want it unblocked.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

K.T. Parks said:


> I personally know of at least 3 people who turned 19 late in their spring semester of senior year (April/May time frame) due to their parents starting them in school later (by choice). Not the norm, but definitely not unheard of.


K.T., it's not about whether it's possible for a high school junior to be 18. It's about the general perception of high schoolers being minors. It's a known fact that Amazon will yank content depicting graphic sex between minors. If a reader reported your book for depicting graphic sex between high schoolers, Amazon is not going to pore over your content to determine whether you made it clear that everyone involved was actually of legal age. They're going to see the high school setting and make the decision to err of the side of caution.

And all of the television shows and motion pictures you have referenced in this thread were mainstream entertainment, NOT erotica. Erotica is obviously quite different from tv or movie scenes of teens kissing or even under sheets in a bed. It's probably best to cut your losses and change the setting of your book and chalk this up as a learning experience regarding Amazon's expectations.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KT, 

This is why I asked your goal for the thread yesterday.  If you're not interested in feedback as to likely reasons why your book was banned on Amazon, just say so.  But, if feedback would be helpful to you, arguing against it by saying "no one knows" and pulling in cases that are NOT analogous is ignoring the very real experience that members are offering up here in an effort to be helpful.  Thanks to all of our members for your patience.
Betsy


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

K.T. Parks said:


> Thanks for posting Nicole. I may end up trying this method as well.
> 
> Ironically, I checked multiple time via the link Selena Kitt posted that takes you to the site where you can check to see if your title is in the "Adult Dungeon" (the red "ADULT" next to the title of the book). I never was in the Dungeon at any point.


Just for clarification, there are three 'bad' states Amazon puts erotica books in:

The book is placed under the Adult filter: This is mainly based upon partial nudity on the cover, and sometimes referred to as the 'Adult Dungeon'. And it's also what you're referring to above when you're talking about the red 'ADULT' flag. If your book has this flag, you can change the cover and ask Amazon to reconsider. They usually take the flag off if your cover passes their rules.

The book is set to 'Draft' status: This happened to a lot of folks last fall, when Amazon changed their internal rules and made certain subjects off limits in covers, titles, and blurbs. They'll send you an email letting you know where the problem is (cover, title, description) but not what it is. We erotica authors got together and figured out the things they were disallowing - step incest, babysitters, cheerleaders, in-laws, any family relationship, among others. Once you fixed it you could republish and hope you didn't receive another email about it. Once again, this wasn't about content. Even though these changes forced me to republish about 80 books (some of them multiple times), I never had to change a single word INSIDE the story. Even though Nicole mentioned 'dungeon' in her post, I believe this is what happened to her book, not the Adult filter. Also, this is why Selena Kitt had to change 'Babysitting the Baumgartners' to 'Sitting For The Baumgartners'.

The book is banned: Amazon sets the status to 'Blocked' and tells you the book is gone. The most likely culprit is the content, and I'm guessing that Amazon doesn't look at the content until a reader complains. I've had two books banned. The first was because I mentioned a character was 17. (Although nothing sexual happened to her until the night of her birthday, when she turned 1. The second was because a character admitted to an 18-year-old that he'd been fantasizing about her for several years. Well, I'm actually only assuming these were the problems, because I fixed them and republished over a year ago, and they're still on sale.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KT,
I was going by some of your sentences in this thread.
Except for a grand total of 3 years and 9 months.  I have lived my entire life in Texas.
But then again I am out in west Texas and we may talk different than Houstonians/Houstonites.

Now as to the high school thing, I knew one guy that was 17/18 as a junior.  The rest of us were a year or so younger.
Amazon sees high school and assumes minors.


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## K.T. Parks (Dec 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> Just for clarification, there are three 'bad' states Amazon puts erotica books in:
> 
> The book is placed under the Adult filter: This is mainly based upon partial nudity on the cover, and sometimes referred to as the 'Adult Dungeon'. And it's also what you're referring to above when you're talking about the red 'ADULT' flag. If your book has this flag, you can change the cover and ask Amazon to reconsider. They usually take the flag off if your cover passes their rules.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this experience. I definitely now know what to look out for going forward with future books I write.

I now have to decide whether or not to rework the series (if I want it to be on Amazon), or just stick with the current distribution channels I am currently using.

Thanks everyone for your feedback, comments, and suggestions.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

Putting them in a community college just doesn't have the same draw, but I have had to do that for a normal sci fi book, just to avoid the possibility.


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## NicoleSwan (Oct 2, 2011)

swolf said:


> The book is set to 'Draft' status: This happened to a lot of folks last fall, when Amazon changed their internal rules and made certain subjects off limits in covers, titles, and blurbs. They'll send you an email letting you know where the problem is (cover, title, description) but not what it is. ... Even though Nicole mentioned 'dungeon' in her post, I believe this is what happened to her book, not the Adult filter.


This is the correct assumption. Just thought you'd want to know that you got that right


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

swolf said:


> Just for clarification, there are three 'bad' states Amazon puts erotica books in:
> 
> The book is placed under the Adult filter: This is mainly based upon partial nudity on the cover, and sometimes referred to as the 'Adult Dungeon'. And it's also what you're referring to above when you're talking about the red 'ADULT' flag. If your book has this flag, you can change the cover and ask Amazon to reconsider. They usually take the flag off if your cover passes their rules.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification on all this, Swolf! I've bookmarked the thread for this info. I'm going to try my hand (so to speak) at rom erotica. Never expected to do so, but a story idea popped into my head the other day and it would truly only be accurately portrayed in that genre. Problem is, I really don't know the unwritten rules, so I'm glomming onto anything on the Kboards as I can.


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