# These Days, Does the Genre 'Romance' Really Mean Sex?



## Sandy Hyatt-James (Sep 11, 2010)

As a writer of two romances, both with only one 'tasteful' sex scene apiece, I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm now considered an old fashioned romance writer. To me, believable characters and a thundering good story is worth far more that graphic sex in nearly every chapter. but these days, it's almost as if wall to wall sex is required in romance.

A long time ago, I remember reading that fantastic novel, 'The Clan Of The Cavebear', and getting irritated every time the writer kept putting sex scenes in. It was like - yeah right, we know they fancy each other and they've already had sex, but do we have to keep reading about it, _yawn, doze off!_

I'd be interested to read what everyone else thinks.

Sandy


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Sandy Hyatt-James said:


> As a writer of two romances, both with only one 'tasteful' sex scene apiece, I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm now considered an old fashioned romance writer. To me, believable characters and a thundering good story is worth far more that graphic sex in nearly every chapter. but these days, it's almost as if wall to wall sex is required in romance.
> 
> A long time ago, I remember reading that fantastic novel, 'The Clan Of The Cavebear', and getting irritated every time the writer kept putting sex scenes in. It was like - yeah right, we know they fancy each other and they've already had sex, but do we have to keep reading about it, _yawn, doze off!_
> 
> ...


A couple months ago I saw a thread like this on the Amazon romance board. Got a little heated. 

Without reading your book or any book in question, (and too much talk of your books might get the thread moved to the writer area and I think it's a good topic for here.) I can't really judge your definition of tasteful, but I think Romance Novels is a pretty big tent with a wide range of preferences and fans. I can only speak for myself in saying that, depending on my mood, I can deal with a "sweet" romance or a pretty darned graphic one. Like all my reading choices, I like a variety and I think a lot of romance readers are the same.

I'll go a little old skool here and give the example of Lavyrle Spencer. Her books were excellent and I loved when she was writing. Her sex scenes weren't graphic and seemed to be an extension of the characters. Some writers seem to want to titillate the reader and some want to just have the reader understand what the act means to the characters. She seemed to aim for the latter. Again, one of my fave authors.

However, I could read one of her books and then turn around and read something so darned hot that the steam would rise from the page. I currently read (and occasionally write) erotic romance. I love those books too.

I don't think that level of sex determines if an author is old-fashioned at all. Anyone who reads more then one genre is capable of understanding that not every book needs a Big Bang, so to speak. 

Shoot, I do believe Clan of The Cave Bear was a freebie for a while. Not anymore!


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## MLPMom (Nov 27, 2009)

I don't think it necessarily means that, at least I hope not.

I love Nicholas Sparks and most of his work doesn't even have sex scenes in it. 

I do wish sometimes some of my favorite authors didn't have to be quite so descriptive. Sometimes I think just the sweet romance and tension of what could be are way more steamy to read about than the actual event. 

And I agree that some peoples view of tasteful and not tasteful vary so it can be a pretty dangerous territory to get into.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> I'll go a little old skool here and give the example of Lavyrle Spencer. Her books were excellent and I loved when she was writing. Her sex scenes weren't graphic and seemed to be an extension of the characters. Some writers seem to want to titillate the reader and some want to just have the reader understand what the act means to the characters. She seemed to aim for the latter. Again, one of my fave authors.


My thoughts exactly. Sex, like dialogue, is just another way to show character and the unique way two characters interact, and sex scenes should be as individual and interesting as the characters involved. There seem to be a lot of cookie cutter sex scenes in some romances these days--I don't object to the amount of sex so much as the monotony of the same scene over and over again, perhaps writtten with slightly different words but essentially the same interaction between characters. If something in a book doesn't advance plot or characterization, it shouldn't be there.

There's a thread right now in the Amazon Romance forum about erotic vs. love scenes in books that taps into a similar theme as this thread that you may find interesting if you're over there.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Romance spans a huge spectrum from person A meets person B/person A loses person B/person A marries person B in the end and they never have sex in the book to person A meets person B and they jump into bed in the first 5 pages.  And even in books where the characters have sex, the scenes themselves range from showing us the bedroom door and then picking up after the act is done to step by step graphic detail.

So no, Romance doesn't really mean sex.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Sandy Hyatt-James said:


> A long time ago, I remember reading that fantastic novel, 'The Clan Of The Cavebear', and getting irritated every time the writer kept putting sex scenes in. It was like - yeah right, we know they fancy each other and they've already had sex, but do we have to keep reading about it, _yawn, doze off!_
> 
> Sandy


Just a small niggle here.. CotCB only had rape/sex between Broud & Ayla.. the REST of the series however.. Yep.. totally agree.. and it was far easier to skip those passages in a paper book than it is on the Kindle...


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Friendly reminder (and as hinted at by Michelle):  this thread is in the Book Corner and therefor no self promotion is allowed.  


On topic:  I'm not much of a romance reader. . . though I don't mind a little romance in my thriller/suspense/mystery story.  Don't have strong feelings either way about sex scenes. . . .though I have been known to skim them if they become to frequent. . .and doing that will lessen my enjoyment of a story.


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## Alan Simon (Jul 2, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Friendly reminder (and as hinted at by Michelle): this thread is in the Book Corner and therefor no self promotion is allowed.


Oops, sorry...still finding my way around Kindleboards ref: which discussion groups are which. 

To the main point though: I agree there's a very big range for what might be classified as a "romance novel." On the one hand you have explicit novels where the sex scenes are not only graphic, they're front and center and seem included at a predefined pace; i.e., "Twenty pages since the last one, time for another."

On the other hand and in the context of the subject line's "these days" time frame, there are books that are throwbacks to classics such as "Marjorie Morningstar" where sex scenes are either 1) subtly written or 2) referenced but not actually written. As a male reader, these are the types of books where I occasionally intersect with this genre.


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## meglet (Feb 14, 2009)

Not necessarily. Lately I've been in the mood to read mostly romance, and they range anywhere from no sex, to graphic sex. I think part of the impression that today's "romance" has to include sex is due to the increase in visibility of what I would consider the "erotic romance" sub-genre. 

I mean, look at the list of free titles for Kindle, and a large portion of them are billed as simply "Romance" but are really more what I would consider erotic fiction or erotic romance. In a book like that, I fully expect that the majority of the book is going to be varying degrees of graphic sex. 

On the other hand, if I've picked up something by Nora Roberts, Sherryl Woods, Susan Mallery, Debbie Macomber, etc, I expect a well-written story that may or may not include descriptive sex scenes, depending on the storyline and how it fits with the characters.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Definitely not.  As Michelle pointed out, the Romance genre is pretty huge, with LOTS of sub-genres falling under the umbrella.  There's a reason they're rated, too - not everyone likes the same levels of explicitness.  Personally, I can enjoy most levels of description, from the "sweet" romance to the graphic.  What I don't care for are the books that read much like a porn movie - ie. the plot is mainly a frame from which to hang sex scenes.  Usually two scenes per book is about all I care to read and more than that will have me wanting to skip ahead.

Anyway, there are as many preferences as there are people, but there is definitely room for the "sweet" romance.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

MLPMom said:


> I don't think it necessarily means that, at least I hope not.
> 
> I love Nicholas Sparks and most of his work doesn't even have sex scenes in it.
> 
> ...


I *love* romance--and it's quite difference from "sex with romance." It doesn't have to be "sweet" but everyone has their own lines of tolerance. I avoid a lot of newer stuff because what is considered ... descriptive is usually too graphic for me. I just love the romantic part of it--falling in love, the tension, the dance. One or two sex scenes isn't over the top, but it's all about plot for me. I love a mystery to be solved or a problem--along with a building love.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I think the perception that there's more sex in most romance novels is partly the result of, as meglet says, the increase in the number and visibility of erotic romance novels, and, our overall increased acceptance of all things graphic.

Think of what's now considered normal for a 9 PM TV show, as opposed to 20 years ago. I think that same "more sex, more violence, more graphic whatever" has seeped into all aspects of media, including romance novels.

Or not.  What do I know?


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I think a real argument could be made for more romances giving a tip of the hat to more experienced or more sexually confident women. It took a long time for these books to stop making virginity the default of any heroine from 18 to 40. Preposterous plot twists to explain how a widow had hymen intact. I think the 80s and 90s was when the romance industry caught up as they slowly released steamier lines and waited for a backlash that never happened. Then ebooks can along and epublishers and showed that you could go even hotter, more explicit, and the traditionally pubs learned again. 

I think that there's still a place for a traditional story, less detail, more left to the imagination, but there's clearly room for books with heroines who want to walk on the (somewhat) wild side. 

It's natural to worry if your favorite type of book will be crowded out, whatever your favorite type is, but I don't see it happening. The wilder some lines and pubs go, the more there will be people looking for the sweet story, loves scenes that stop at the bedroom door, or hints over minute details. I suppose it's a little like print book fans worrying about the Kindle. There's room for it all.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Not even a hint of sex in _Not What She Seems_, and I would definitely classify it as a romance in the Mary Higgins Clark vein.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Sure, as others have said, there are all "heat levels" from sweet (no sex) to "oh my goodness".


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

There may be all heat levels, but it's harder to find the ones with "romance."  It's not that they aren't out there, but the shelf space is now crowded with themes you didn't see before, including erotica--all that space before was fairly tame to a little risque.  

For me, I just shop for mysteries.  Cozies usually have some romance without going hog wild.    I rarely read anything from the "romance" section because I just do not want to bother to have to sort through it all.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

I don't think, even now when there are more sexually explicit books on the market, that "romance" is necessarily synonymous with "sex". I think it is a matter of personal choice whether you want to read something erotic or something gently romantic and it is up to a publisher/ author to make it clear to readers the tone of a particular book so individuals can make that choice. Speaking for myself, I am not comfortable with explicit sex (although I have read some books where it is intrinsic to the plot)- and I think that subtlety can be more effective. We all yearn for Darcy, despite the fact we see no more than drawing room manners from him. I feel the passion of Mr Rochester, although we are never shown it in the bedroom. Even in films, I think that seeing a first kiss as the camera fades can be more erotic than something full blown and graphic - in other words, as a reader (or a viewer) we are using our imagination as well as having things spelt out for us. Another favourite book is Rebecca - nothing explicit sexually, but full of passion and love - but perhaps this is a "love story" rather than a "romance" - and the difference between these two categories is a whole new discussion.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Romance and sex to not exclude each other, its not one or the other. Romance is my favorite category and within that category there are lots of genres, within those genres you find all kinds of heat levels. All have romance as the theme and for most romance reader must have a HEA. Thats why I don't consider Nickolas Sparks romance. It might have some romance in it, but its not romance as its defined at the moment I don't think so.

I have read hundreds and hundreds of romance novels from all genres. I found very few where there was no romance and only sex. Those are usually straight erotica. There is also erotic romance where the HEA rules apply again.

Personally, I get peeved usually when the door gets slammed after the teases. Very few writers can pull that off without it just being frustrating. Georgette Heyer is one that is a master at that kind of romance. Very few do it like her though.

When I hear "sweet" or "clean" I think of christian fiction stuff which I won't touch with a 10 foot pole .

I guess its also used for other romances where the door gets slammed in the readers face .

I have read great novels with only kisses in it, I have read great novels with much more explicit scenes. I love them all, but I lean much more towards open door, wide open .

As I do a lot of research before I read, I have come across very few that didn't have a story, plot etc. The depth of the romance itself varies, but most I read have great love stories and great plots. I have been reduced to tears by romances that have a heat rating of burning.

The amount of sex in a book does not equal no romance. Its all in the writer and if they can emote through the characters, including the sex scenes.

A good site to get an idea about novels and their heat rating is All about romance http://likesbooks.com/

You can even search for specific levels and get a huge list of reviews. Go to power search on the top.


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## lib2b (Apr 6, 2010)

I personally don't care what the "heat level" is so long as there is adequate character development, more plot than sex, good plot, and most importantly good relationship development.  The sex scenes can be nonexistant, closed-door, more sensual than descriptive, or totally descriptive...I don't care about that part.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find any romances lately, especially of the e-book variety that had both the very erotic sex scenes *and* character development/more plot than sex/good plot/relationship development.  The more erotic books that I've read have been primarily focused on the sex rather than the relationship or the plot (essentially PWP for those who are familiar with that term (Plot, What Plot?).  I'm not saying that books that have all of those elements don't exist, just that I haven't found them yet.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

lib2b said:


> I personally don't care what the "heat level" is so long as there is adequate character development, more plot than sex, good plot, and most importantly good relationship development. The sex scenes can be nonexistant, closed-door, more sensual than descriptive, or totally descriptive...I don't care about that part. Unfortunately, I have yet to find any romances lately, especially of the e-book variety that had both the very erotic sex scenes *and* character development/more plot than sex/good plot/relationship development. The more erotic books that I've read have been primarily focused on the sex rather than the relationship or the plot (essentially PWP for those who are familiar with that term (Plot, What Plot?). I'm not saying that books that have all of those elements don't exist, just that I haven't found them yet.


Have you read Victoria Dahl's Tumble Creek series?







The heroine in the first book writes erotic romance and the book she was writing in the book was also released -- this one was more heat than plot.



What I like is that people would be hard-pressed not to call these romance novels, but the heroines have healthy libidos. As mentioned, one writes erotic romance. She keeps this from the hero, the chief of police, because she's embarrassed that her first book was clearly inspired by him. The heroine in Lead Me On was actually overly promiscuous in her teens and has sublimated and over-compensated until she meets the hero. She learns how to not be ashamed of her sexuality because it goes from being an act of low self-esteem but an act of passion and love. The author is also rather funny.

If you like historicals, Victoria Dahl also writes those, but I'm also a fan of:




(There was a third book in the series I never got into.)

I found these books really pretty sexy, but I know that's a subjective thing. Again, we have heroines who are very interested in sex, even before they have it. The heroine of the first book is fascinated by a naughty book and passes it on to the heroine on the second book, who is an artist and illustrates it. The hero, upon seeing her drawings, knows she's pretty innocent and imaginative.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Omigod... so, looking at that chart of romance heat levels, under burning it lists sample authors... and it says...


> and Bertrice Small (who never met a manroot she didn't love)


Which cracked me up. The reason for that, my hubby has a story of when he was a kid, his younger sister was reading one of his mom's romances when she suddenly started giggling. So of course hubby wants to know what's up. SIL managed to get out between snickers "She said 'manroot' - BWA ha ha ha!!" Now I know who the guilty author probably was.... LOL


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Bertrice Small, wow. I read her back when I was way too young to be reading her. Skye O'Malley!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> Bertrice Small, wow. I read her back when I was way too young to be reading her. Skye O'Malley!


LOL I'd never heard of her, but I BET it's the same author. I mean, how many people can write manroot with a straight face? I don't know about you, but I'm giggling as I type


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ah yes, the manroot . I like to refer to this thread from amazon that has been posted before for when you need a laugh. 
Its the hated phrases thread. 

http://www.amazon.com/tag/romance/forum/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=FxM42D5QN2YZ1D&cdThread=Tx11WCXSI7U7QV7&displayType=tagsDetail


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

Romance is also my favorite genre. I'll read all types from erotica to Christian fiction without any sex - anything but vampires really.

To me the sex has to make sense in the context of the novel. If it is a contemporary and the characters are the sort of people who would rip off each other's clothes and ask questions later, then fine. But if it is a historical romance and the unmarried Victorian characters are doing all sorts of freaky things with someone they just met five minutes ago, then I usually think "Oh come on!!". 

I like when the sex helps bring the characters together emotionally. A good example is Susan Elizabeth Phillip's Match Me If You Can. At first it seems as if the hero and heroine have absolutely nothing in common. It is only after they sleep together that you realize they are just perfect for each other. But you can also have a great romance about two people who don't initially seem right for each other (such as Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet) who fall in love without ever doing anything R-rated.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

Beatrice Small - lol - I remember her. Joanna Lindsey was another one I read as a teen.

Seriously - I get bored when there are more than one or two sex scenes. I'd rather read 'love scenes' (emotional intimacy rather that physical) which are harder to write. 

Nora Roberts can write a good love scene. C.L. Wilson can make two characters playing a game in public into a very emotionally initimate scene when the characters only flirted.

I think I miss the flirtation and courtship between Her & Him. The tension, the 'dance' as someone put it. However, I know from writing my own books that getting those scenes right takes time. I can dash off a sex scene in a few minutes, but to get the dialog of a flirtation right takes HOURS.  

There's nothing wrong with erotica - I'm just more interested in reading (and writing) the courtship than the bedroom scenes. But the silly purple prose and 'manroot'   of all the crazy words to use! just makes me laugh.


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## Joe Chiappetta (May 20, 2010)

Romance is often a red flag indicating mature themes are over the top. Yet there are a small minority who still try to handle the issue with a pure hearted approach like in old time movies. More of that is needed.


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## sportourer1s (Oct 2, 2010)

Does sex still sell? I wonder...............


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Joe Chiappetta said:


> Romance is often a red flag indicating mature themes are over the top. Yet there are a small minority who still try to handle the issue with a pure hearted approach like in old time movies. More of that is needed.


What do you base this one?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, I didn't really understand that post. I am a bit confused by it. How is romance theme over the top? And a small minority doesn't like romance? I don't think I am grasping the meaning of the post 

There is lots for everyone out there when it comes to Romance novels. I really don't think there is much to read into the amount of sex that is or isn't in books as supposed to the evils going on in the world. If its ok to show people getting their heads blown off on TV, than its ok to read about the highlanders mighty sword swung heavily  

I grew up in Europe so people aren't quite as prudish there as I have found in the US sometimes about these things. 

I think its just a sign of the times that women, (and most romance is read and written by women) enjoy more explicit romance novels. 

My mom gave me Angelique when I was 12 or 13 and I have never looked back since when it came to romance novels.

I have also learned to grow a thick skin and not care anymore about the digs people get in about romance readers. 

I say, want to pick on my choices? Lets see what you are reading and discuss


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Joe might have a lot of experience reading romance, and I'm open to hearing about that, but there are a whole lot of folks who think they know what they're like or about. Mostly men, but definitely some women too. But they've seen the covers and they can imagine. When we talk more explicit sex, we're still talking about (with the exception of some epubs) monogamous, quite mainstream sex in a committed relationship. The wickedest traditionally pubbed books are still more innocent than the lives (or at least pasts) of a good portion of the readership.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, I think that sex sells books.

Some of that sex is really kinky. I'm thinking of a certain urban fantasy series that went crazy after a few books. I picked up one that read like a BDSM manual. Too strange for me.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't think Romance really means sex.  As others have stated, it's a broad topic.

Sex scenes do have a tendency to quickly get redundant.  Especially if you read multiple books by the same author.  You get to the point where you can even predict what "position" will be next.  But you can't argue with the fact that sex sells.  

Personally, the most enjoyable facet to a good romance is the buildup.  One of my all time favorite romance authors is Georgette Heyer.  Her books read like a more modern Jane Austen.  They have no sex, usually only one kiss at the very end.  But she's such a fantastic writer.  I get completely immersed in her books because her characters have just enjoyable personalities.  She totally plays up the "leave the rest to the imagination" card.

Which is why, sorry to segue here, I HATE those Pride and Prejudice knock off books. ESPECIALLY the ones that try to delve into explicit detail about Darcy and Elizabeth's wedding night.  Just... no.  I refuse to support that movement.


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## sal (Aug 4, 2009)

As an erotica writer, I think any book with explicit sex in it should be classified as erotica.
If it's pure romance with off-stage or no sex, then label is as romance.

I would never leave the erotica tag off any of my work. I'm not trying to "trick" any romance readers
into reading my stuff.

So, I think the real problem here is authors are not properly categorizing their work.


Sal


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

As a heavy reader of Romance, I have to disagree with that. A romance as a category just has to have some sort of HEA, under that umbrella I read everything from Heyer with doors shut to erotica romance. I think there is a difference between erotica and erotic romance. I think the only thing most romance readers get peeved about is if they don't get their HEA  .

I have read some very good erotic romance where although sex is very explicit, the romance is also turned up high and very satisfying. They are a little harder to find though. 

To me and I am pretty sure a lot of others, romance does not mean doors shut only. And I am glad for that. Glad there are still writers out there coming up with the stories to satisfy all of us.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

K. A. Jordan said:


> Some of that sex is really kinky. I'm thinking of a certain urban fantasy series that went crazy after a few books. I picked up one that read like a BDSM manual. Too strange for me.


Yes, but the author, assuming I'm thinking of the same one, was widely regarded as having lost her mind and her name became a punchline so she has hardly been rewarded.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

sal said:


> As an erotica writer, I think any book with explicit sex in it should be classified as erotica.
> If it's pure romance with off-stage or no sex, then label is as romance.
> 
> I would never leave the erotica tag off any of my work. I'm not trying to "trick" any romance readers
> ...


Okay, but erotica and erotica romance are different animals. Erotic romance contains everything or nearly everything a romance novel does, plus more explicit sex -- sometimes a little BDSM. Your comment that books should be labeled is correct, but in your case the problem would be more lack of romance than more lust, although both should be marked.


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## EllisonJames (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that, if it were possible, I would agree with the posts of purple79, atunah, and sal, all at once. As the market for books and stories expands, we find more work out there that stretches the normal boundries of any given genre or subgenre. While some stories should be classified as erotica, while others romance, there remains so much that falls between the lines of even erotic romance or romantica. I think that line is explained in what atunah said about sex being part of a character's development, or even part of events that drive a plot forward.


I don't want to be teased and led right up to the bedroom door only to have it slammed in my face at the last moment. But, on the other hand, I don't want to be left thinking I need to hide while reading and wash my hands afterward either. I don't want to read something that seems forced or just placed for effect but I don't want to be left out of the sexual development of a character and all the emotions involved in the sexual part of a relationship either.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

...only if you're lucky.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

I don't like having the bedroom door slammed in my face either, especially if the story calls for a love scene, and the author avoids it.  What's even worse are the generic sex scenes, though, that many have referred to on this thread.  K.A. Jordan made a great point when she said that scenes with emotional intimacy are harder to write than sex scenes.  The hottest sex scenes to me are the ones that have a build-up of emotional intimacy to go with the physical intimacy.  To me, that's true passion.  

Like the congressman (or perhaps senator) said once about the definition of pornography:  "I know it when I see it,"  I feel somewhat the same about well-written love scenes.  I know it when I read it.


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## EllisonJames (Nov 23, 2010)

Great point, Purple pen!

I can understand how writing a sex scene built on the premise of strong emotional ties can be difficult. I like to learn about the relationship and the emotional development that takes place. At some point, as in real life, characters want to express their emotion in a physical form. When I see this in a story, I continue reading and enjoying. But it is important to address emotional development, and the further development of the relationship along the way.



Anyway, What I'm saying is I agree while also saying there is a place for pure erotica. I also feel that stories should be proplerly labeled when possible. Personally, I'm still having trouble finding an exact label for my own work.


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## MLPMom (Nov 27, 2009)

There are a lot of "romance" writers out there that have steamy scenes were the sex is only implied and the story doesn't lack for it in the least, like I mentioned earlier, Nicholas Sparks is one of those authors, so it Deanna Raybourn,  and Deeanne Gist. I don't think you have to have sex to have romance and vice versa.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

This is a great thread and one that, as an author, I find very helpful.  I purposely wrote my stories under the paranormal mystery genre rather than paranormal romance, because I did not want to write sex scenes and I didn't want my readers to expect them and be disappointed at the end of the book.  I had plenty of romance and sexual tension - but no sex.  It's nice to hear that you don't have to rip off your protagonists clothes in order to satisfy readers.  
And, I agree, sometimes sex scenes become almost monotonous.  For example, I LOVE Nora Roberts and I am in awe of her skill - but it seems to me that every book she's written for at least the past ten years has a love scene where the man says, "Right here.  Right now."  And I can't help myself - I laugh out loud.


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## Cavaguy (Nov 28, 2010)

I consider my book to be a romance/relationship--it's a very modern one and it has sex (as well as Tesco's Finest Cava--sorry plug) in the title but I don't do graphic and try to put an amusing slant on the male perspective.

But I don't think romance has to be about sex--although with so called 'modern' romances it's difficult to aviod the subject matter.

Graphic is very difficult to pull of without being cliched.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I agree that romance is a big tent that can encompass all sorts of steam levels.  Until recently I would have said that if you wanted to write for New York, you needed to write pretty hot-- but Kristan Higgins' books have done great, and she doesn't have sex scenes to speak of.  Then again, a lot of other bestsellers have so much heat you can't read the books without protective gloves. 

I don't, however, agree that any romance with explicit sex should be categorized as erotica.  My books have explicit sex scenes, but they're definitely not erotica, just plain ol' romance.  If I categorized them as erotica, readers would be disappointed.  There's explicit, and then there's erotic romance, and they're not necessarily the same thing, IMHO.

Personally, I do like a lot of sex in my romances.  Someone mentioned Bertrice Small down the thread.  I read her books when I was younger, but I didn't care for her style overmuch.  I like the newer hot romances better-- less purple prose.   But I can read anything from no sex at all to a ton of sex.  As long as it's got a good story and interesting characters, I'll read it.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> Yes, but the author, assuming I'm thinking of the same one, was widely regarded as having lost her mind and her name became a punchline so she has hardly been rewarded.


It sounds like the same author. I thought she lost her mind, too.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Just my two cents.
I think it all depends whether you can relate to the characters.
In some books the sex seems to be there, just because the last sex scene was 2,000 words ago and so it's time for another round. As far as I'm concerned that's porn. Nothing wrong with it, just advertise it as such. On the other hand, I read books where the characters go at it like energizer bunnies, but it serves the story.
That being said - and it's quite ironic in my case, for reasons I won't go into - one of the most sexy scenes I ever read was this:

*****​
It was in Mary Renault's _Fire From Heaven_ when Alexander and Hephaistion make love for the very first time. I still wonder whether Renault meant it like that, or some prudish editor edited a paragraph out.


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## EliRey (Sep 8, 2010)

I've been confused about this myself. Concerned mainly because reading a love scene and writing one are two different monsters. I've read so many romance novels where the scenes get pretty heavy but I wouldn't categorize it as erotica, yet when I tried my hand at writing one, OMG it so felt like erotica ony it wasn't anything heavier than the stuff I'd read. I've come to the conclusion that it all comes down to the story and the characters. I personally am annoyed after so much built up sexual tension nothing happens. If the writer is going to build it up that much and have the reader deal with it for 20 chapters it better happen and it better be worth the wait. While others are not so built up so it's okay if it never happens or it's a closed door scene. Just my .02


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

Good point EliRey - 

It is easier to write a bad sex scene that a good one. Look at all the "Bad Sex Awards" winners over the years.

My books are Romance because I don't want to ruin the story. What if my attempt at a hot sexy scene fails? I can give the reader enough tension and spice to keep them interested - they can fill in the details themselves. That way the reader can "Have It Her Way" with all that implies. 

I think that this bears paraprasing: The difference between Romantic and Erotic is the difference between using a feather and using the whole bird. 

I'll stick to feathers, thanks. But you can go 'whole bird' if you prefer.


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## anastaciaknits (Nov 28, 2010)

Funny, because I've been thinking the same thing. I rarely am in the mood for a romance, and if I do I like the paranormal romance kind. But I've gotten a few free kindle books that are romance - and you'd be 3 or 4 pages in & the sex scenes would start, before you even have gotten to know the characters. They were promptly deleted. Don't get me wrong, I like a steamy book once in a while, too, but I think of romance books as hearts & flowers, and the erotica as, well, the erotica...


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I guess I just don't see it as all or nothing. Romance comes in all "heat" levels, from clean to burning. They are all still romance.
Erotica is a different animal all together. Not to be confused with Romance. 
There is though erotic romance, which still has the theme of the HEA, but also very graphic scenes. Bondage, menage and other stuff like that can all be in there. 

Sex in a Romance novel does not equal erotica. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't understand that a romance cannot have steamy sex in it, or that somehow its less of a romance. Its all just what we like. Not one better than the other. Hearts and flowers and sex are not mutually exclusive. Not in books and not in life


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

EllenFisher said:


> I can read anything from no sex at all to a ton of sex. As long as it's got a good story and interesting characters, I'll read it.


Hope you don't mind me butting in with a recommendation. I really dig Moriah Jovan's Tales of Dunham series. Very smart writing, filled with great characters, and - yep! - sex (not the manroot kind). The first book in the series, The Proviso, is a modern-day Hamlet:

*Knox Hilliard's uncle killed his father to marry his mother and gain control of the family's Fortune 100 company. Knox is set to inherit it on his 40th birthday, provided he has a wife and an heir.

Then, after his bride is murdered on their wedding day, Knox refuses to fulfill the proviso at all. When a brilliant law student catches his attention, he knows he must wait until after his 40th birthday to pursue her-but he may not be able to resist her that long.

Sebastian Taight, eccentric financier, steps between Knox and his uncle by initiating a hostile takeover. When Sebastian is appointed trustee of a company in receivership, he falls hard for its beautiful CEO. She has secrets that involve his uncle, but his secret could destroy any chance he has with her.

Giselle Cox exposed the affair that set her uncle's plot in motion-twenty years ago. He's burned Giselle's bookstore and had her shot because it is she who holds his life in her hands. Then she runs into a much bigger problem: A man who takes her breath away, who can match and dominate her, whose soul is as scarred as his body.

Knox, Sebastian, and Giselle: Three cousins at war with an uncle who will stop at nothing to keep Knox's inheritance. Never do they expect to find allies-and love-on the battlefield. *

The Proviso (Tales of Dunham)


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