# 20 books to 50k



## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

_I'm an Authoring Outlaw, I just ride my own path..._

If you asked people (especially authors) how they would write a story to get to the top of a mountain, I can only imagine some of the responses (some, not all) such as:

1) Go straight up, don't allow anything to stop you. Blow chunks of rock to bypass obstacles (even if going around is easier).
2) Find the easiest path, finding clues how to get you there. Kiss a few dames on the way.
3) Grab a group of dwarfs to tunnel up to the top.
4) Hercules C-130, parachute down.
5) Warp in from a different solar system, then grab the escape pod and hope like h#ll you stick the landing.

I state these paltry examples because I feel it illustrates a point. The point is that as creative as humanity is, there is ALWAYS another way to get to the top.

Can you write to market and up your chances? H#ll yes! I think Chris (Fox) makes a good point. Did I do this? _No_. I wrote about vampires and aliens and military sci-fi and absolutely no one was screwing anyone else - even sex is alluded to most of the time. Genre? Fat chance on defining that one. (Much to my chagrin as I've tried to figure out how to place it appropriately for fans _now_.)

You shouldn't have cussing? I have so many cusswords in my books fans want a list of all of the different ones. Do you believe that you can put too many 'F-bomb's' in a book? Yeah, well, the books can still sell. _Trust_ me.

Can you have a poorly edited book (or let's face it, originally abysmally edited) and be successful? Yes. Should you release it that way.... Yeah, probably not. Lot's of issues in your future if you do this. Much easier to have a decent edit job and skip the problems.

Can you succeed with short stories? YES.

I've talked in the past about how I wanted to create an income of $50k a year by having a backlist of 20 books. I came up with this number because I noticed after the first few days of selling my first book, I was averaging about $7.50 a day in income. At that number ($7.50 a day for each of the 20 books) I'd make $54k. You only need $36k to enjoy a very nice retirement in Cabo San Lucas. That was my goal.

When I started and released my first book in November (2015), I was happily ignorant. I had no experience, no one to tell me all of the reasons it can't be done (conversely, I didn't have some of the awesome and incredible wisdom I've read here on this same board to refine my path, either.) I still don't understand where the 'box' is and I never will. I refuse to accept normal conventions - but that doesn't mean I ignore the wisdom, I just refuse to accept dogma.

I was on The Author Biz with Stephen Campbell in January. I had just released my 5th book and was going to close above $10k that month. The title to that show is '90 days to $10,000' and it was a blast talking to him. I mentioned how Rick Gualtieri and Annie Bellet shared some incredible information here on kBoards and I really appreciated their willingness to lay out their information here for newbies like myself to read.

I admire both of them, as well as many more who share their information on what is possible. I enjoy Rosalind James's posts, Timothy Ellis's posts and many others. Rick G. has been nice enough to share with me on multiple occasions and I'm still working on implementing some of his recommendations. Trust me Rick, I listened! The box sets and the Audible will happen. Soon...sometime. Screw it, probably within two months as I'm hiring my own help now to help accomplish more.

Point of fact, one of my core decisions on how I decided to attack my strategic selling effort (or 'aha' moment) was when I FOUND Timothy's Hunter Legacy series. I was a super happy reader that Friday when I first saw that he had a series and it had 4 FREAKING BOOKS IN IT! Hot [email protected], I had a weekend of fun ahead of me. If I felt that way, wouldn't others?

How long did my book #7 (Kneel or Die) take to write, edit, and put up on Amazon? Twenty-five days, which included breaks for a funeral and a Production Editor who was sick as a dog for a few days. How many people beta read and helped with editing on it? Well, depending on what part we are talking about it ranged from four to eight. The book was written and reviewed by a group and there is a system to do it. I've still got some pretty picky readers and those readers say they found two mistakes. Two mistakes out of almost 75k words. Would a 'professional' find more? Sure, but I'm not going to get a professional to run their editing simultaneously with my writing. I invited Stephen Campbell (The Author Biz) to lurk in the FB Group as we made this happen. He had complete access to ask any questions and see exactly what I did and how the group worked.

He interviewed Stephen Russel and myself on Tuesday about the experience. That podcast releases on Monday if your interested on his insights.

When I did that first podcast with Stephen in January, I pulled back and stopped responding and lurked mostly here on kBoards. I suffered from the normal thoughts of 'What if it is just a fluke what I accomplished?'. Some of the push back I received on a couple responses (I also wrote on Amazon's forums a few times) caused me to go back and decide that suggesting a different way up the mountain wasn't being well received. Why was I going to fight that battle?

What if they were right? What if I had got lucky and I couldn't duplicate the results? I could always do a pen-name to test my method, but not when I'm on a book-a-month release cycle, now with a short story tossed in between (but that's another story). But I could do it if someone else was willing to let me teach them.

So, what makes me think I have anything to add to the paths to the top? Because results always matter, talk can always walk.

Here are my results:

1 - I made $10k in my first 90 days.
2 - I've made $60k in 150 days
3 - I'm on track to hit $300k this year - Obviously things can happen. My goal for March (to hit $300k in 2016) is $17,360. I'm projecting a gross of $25k this month - over $20k has been sold to date.

* 'So what' I've been told. You got lucky, your writing is crap - it's poorly edited, you need to do better. You need to do this, you need to do that. To those I would suggest that the ONLY one who has a vote is the person who pays you and pays me. The *reader*. Not the reader who downloads the free book, but the reader that buys your second (or any) that cost's money. So, how do I answer those who believe I 'got lucky'? - Well, here are some additional efforts I undertook since February. *

4 - I'm helping four (4) others in a tiny mentoring group. All four were fans of my work and three were helping me beta read / edit. I've offered any one in these beta reading groups that if they wanted to be a writer, I was willing to help mentor them (this was after the effort was over, not as an incentive). Two guys took me up in February after book 6 (2/3). One fan reached out to me and I invited him in between 6 & 7 and one lady took me up on the offer after book 7's release (3/7) :

* Of the two who started in early February, both have released books (all-in on Amazon).
* My female mentee has her first book and will release around the 22nd of April. She started on 3/9 or so.
* One (a fan, not part of the editing group) is 1/2 done with his first. However, he still has University papers to write (he is in Australia)

Of the two who have released stories:

* One released his first 'series' and it sold 68 books, 185 'free' and 9851 KENP in the first three weeks. He has paused that series to try another. His best was #5 in a smallish niche and he has fans asking for what's next.

* One released his first 'series' and he will close out his first 45 days at the end of this month with over $3,000 in sales. His fourth book should be out in a week or two. Hit #1 in multiple small to medium level Niche's.

I've been blessed. Hugely blessed. I've offered to help and spent a fair amount of time to coach and encourage these writers to help them in their effort to be successful. I don't have all the answers, I have a path to the top that has been successful for more than just myself, as I have proven.

Are the answers on these boards for most writers? Certainly. Are they 'all' the ways up the mountain?

No. Because there will always be an Authoring Outlaw or two. Some of us fall off the mountain to an ignoble death... A few of us will see the rest of you up at the top*.

I hope to see you all there,

Michael Anderle

* You define the top! For me, the definition is to have a series that has rabid fans that enjoy it and buy my books and want me to keep writing. For others, it will be to be sold in a bookstore, or on the New York Times Bestseller - may you *all* find your path to your _own_ mountaintop.


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## Brock O. Lee (Mar 10, 2016)

Take me under your wing. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

manderle said:


> * You define the top! For me, the definition is to have a series that has rabid fans that enjoy it and buy my books and want me to keep writing. For others, it will be to be sold in a bookstore, or on the New York Times Bestseller - may you *all* find your path to your _own_ mountaintop.


I think I define the top as the series being made into movies or tv series. But I agree, rabid fans who cant get enough are a definition worth paying attention to.

Btw, Kneel or Die is on page 3 of my also-boughts for Hero to the Rescue.


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

I think I'm on pace to make like 6k my first 90 days. I'm pretty psyched with that, especially given the first half of that time was pretty slow. I'm interested to see how much I can make monthly moving forward.

Mostly, I'm blown away by the volume which you can write. A novel in 25 days? Pshhh, that's crazy. Good for you man, that is incredible.

I'm hoping to have book 2 done in a year lol.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Awesome results, Michael. Congratulations.

How much of your success do you attribute to advertising? What have you done in terms of promotions so far?


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## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

Congratulations on your success. You've clearly got good crampons. Every time I try to buy some, they're all sold out, and I'm left at the bottom of the slope wearing flippers!


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks for the post.

Keep this updated!

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk


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## Craig Martelle (Feb 6, 2016)

Appreciate the post Michael. Good job finding your niche and giving them material that they like to read. When your reviews end with, "can't wait for the next book..." then you've resonated well. It sets you up to win. Excellent work and congratulations on realizing your retirement to Cabo


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## T S Paul (Jan 6, 2016)

As the Men-tee I appreciate everything that Michael has helped me with. I have always been a big Ol fan of Sci fi and other genres. I read his books and got to be friends with him on FB. One thing led to another and  i was writing a book. I threw it up  on Amazon and suddenly it was selling. A Lot. So I wrote another, then another. Then I made a trilogy and put that up there. I even went back and fixed my mistakes on the previous two. My early reviews were not the greatest. I will admit that if you read version 1 of edition 1 of book 1 you may have been correct. But you still bought the book. I have 2 BS right now. You have to remember that all of this took place since Feb 17th of this year. Book 4 is on track and will be out mid April. Michaels way of doing things is a bit different but so far it works. Number wise I have sold 910 copies of the books with over 100k in page reads. I doesn't sound like a lot of KENP but my first 2 books were 60 and 30 pages. All at $2.99 and never free.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Thank you for sharing. I totally need to write faster (I know it's discipline but....) I have three sequels that I must get written or fans are going to riot. (What a problem to have, but still.)


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Lisa_Blackwood said:


> I totally need to write faster (I know it's discipline but....) I have three sequels that I must get written or fans are going to riot. (What a problem to have, but still.)


I know the feeling. I'm trying to get 9 written while having large chunks of each day without an working brain. Fortunately, my fans are not likely to riot, but every time someone asks where the next book is, falling behind makes me feel bad for them.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Awesome post! Thanks for sharing.


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## David Crosby (Nov 12, 2015)

Very inspiring, thanks for the post!


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I remember hearing your interview on The Author Biz. I was on a treadmill a little after 5 am, prepping for my daily writing.

You publish really, really quickly. You write decent sized books that people want to read. Your subject matter is a mash up of all the genre tropes people like me love. I'm not at all surprised you're blowing up.

I've released a book every month for the last six months. The difference this has made in my income is insane. Every month is a record month.

I suspect that if you keep releasing at this pace you'll blow past the 300k goal.


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## garyjonas (Feb 24, 2013)

Excellent post, Michael.  See you in a few days in Austin!


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## KeenToWrite (Oct 30, 2015)

Add me to the list of people curious about your marketing methods.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

*Thank you EVERYONE for chiming in!*

To those who want to get involved in the 20 books to 50k FB Group, message me on Facebook so I can add you to the group. Please understand, the goal is hacking the authoring process and making a livable income. So it will not be so useful if you want a literary agent / New York Times / etc. (at the moment, obviously you could do AWESOME and get those, too!)

If there is a way to shorten the success cycle, I (we) try to figure out a potential solution and we just _try_ it.

Hit me up on Facebook to join the group here: https://www.facebook.com/michael.anderle.16

*On Marketing*

I have done (and continue) to do Facebook drip campaigns around $12-$15 a day tops. My focus is on how to be successful without Bookbub / spending some of the insane amounts on Facebook I did back in January. I've played with $0.99 and I recently pulled my book back up to $2.99. The money is still very good, but I dropped in ranking. I'll admit that I'm competitive, so I'm focused on both gaining sales and ranking.

What I am testing at the moment is hacking the 30 day 'cliff' issue. After a lot of effort related to Also-boughts, my outlaw testing is to drop a short story between my longer books so that I'm never outside of 30 days. If you read a fair amount of posts, everyone says two things work: 1) Bookbub & 2) Another story. I can't control #1, so I'll work on #2.

Here are my thoughts when deciding to try this strategy:

* The short stories are much faster to produce.
* I'm targeting these short stories into genre's a little different than my core stories. New audience sees my name.
* My fans will guarantee that I'm in the top 20 of most small niche's for a week or so.
* I'm making money on this marketing effort, not spending it (Well, after editing / cover)
* My backlist is growing. 
* I noticed after dropping my short story that there are some really big names doing the same thing. [email protected]! ;-)

I spent time thinking about these short stories and how they fit into the bigger Universe. I make sure that the short stories are fulfilling a need for the series fans as well as potentially bringing in new fans.

*On hacking a new and successful series*

Here are the core steps I will tell everyone joining 20 books:

1) Read this article on emotionally engaging: http://annerallen.com/2016/03/insider-secrets-top-short-story-writers.html
2) Make sure, really sure, that your first few paragraphs make the reader give a [crap] about that character. Rip apart everything out of your story until you do that. Be brutal with yourself. For your favorite stories, go back and read them with an eye to paragraph, action, description and how they delineate characters talking. Beautiful descriptions do not engage me as a reader, a person (character) does. That beautiful mountain becomes incredibly interesting when the characters spaceship just narrowly missed it. It was the action and the characters sudden chance at pancaking into this mountain that gripped me.
3) Hacking the right story idea: Plan your book in 15-20k installments - Why? Because we aren't going to ask your Aunt, Uncle, Brother, Sister, Mother and Friends to answer whether or not your book is any good. In the end, it ONLY matters if the readers enjoy it. So, we are going to put your book out as short stories. If you can't get readers from Book 01 to Book 03? Close the series and try again. It took 200k words for me to write 3 books. It would now take me 45k - 60k words to figure out if I'm on to something (and not alienate those close to me in the process). I'm not looking for a circle of people to pat me on the back and then fail in the marketplace. I can tell you if I like something and will, but if you're a horror writer, I'm not going to be able to answer it all because I won't read your genre. That stuff scares me, so why am I going to read it?  I'm not the target market, but providing it to the target market is hella-easy. Scary, but easy.
4) Make sure you have a solid (genre specific) cover. I'd budget to get a pre-built if you don't have someone who can do this. I've done the covers for my mentee's if they want to work with me. Here is a post with the one's I've created to help them:



__ https://www.facebook.com/TheKurtherianGambitBooks/posts/620479121442816


5) Hacking your blurb: Subscribe to Bookbub for your genre while you are writing.  Then copy out every blurb for books in your Genre and get a sense for their style. Find one you like and plug in your own information. Then tweak until it flows. 
6) Go KU, the voracious readers in the program are willing (and anxiously looking) for new content.
7) Don't worry about reviews at the moment. If you have something, you will see it within a few days. If not, get advice on your cover / blurb. Otherwise, it's your story - It's not working with the readers.
8.) The goal isn't to market your way to success, it is to write in the genre you like that can support you, and then create the characters and _hook_ that resonates and finding that match as quick as humanly possible.
9) T S Paul (a mentee) put his shorts out at $2.99... He recently asked if I thought he should change his pricing. Since I would have SWORN you couldn't sell a short story at $2.99, I told him he should keep his own counsel as mine would just cost him money. He's forging his own path up his mountain and I'm now learning from him.

*Thank You*

To Gary, Chris, David, Felicia, Timothy, Scott, Lisa, Craig, CM, Oakwood, Raquel, Evan, Evan Pickering, and Spencer for your replies! They mean the world to me.

To Timothy - Thank writing one of the series that helped me with defining my own path.

Talk to you soon, I've got another 5k words to write before the Smarter Artists Summit (I'm arriving Tuesday for those going. Looking forward to meeting so many of you there!)

Michael Anderle


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## PhilipColgate (Feb 11, 2016)

These are the posts I love to read.  There are millions of readers shopping on Amazon and we, as indie authors, only need to convert a small number to earn a decent living--anything more is a big bonus.  This is why consistent, high volume publishing is crucial.  The market is an ocean and we have a better chance of catching a big fish if we have more than one line in the water.


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

Keep it coming, Michael.

Oh, and the facebook group link is dead--I'd love to join the 50k in 20 books!


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> I think I define the top as the series being made into movies or tv series. But I agree, rabid fans who cant get enough are a definition worth paying attention to.
> 
> Btw, Kneel or Die is on page 3 of my also-boughts for Hero to the Rescue.


Dude, we need to talk! Enough with just passing by on kBoards ;-)

Book 8 has some scenes in Australia as it is my second largest market. Australians are simply some of God's best people I think, and we here in the U.S. don't think or hear too much about you guys. How about we exchange your location with something closer? My first fan / editor is an Australian and he was so helpful.

Michael


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

CM Raymond said:


> Keep it coming, Michael.
> 
> Oh, and the facebook group link is dead--I'd love to join the 50k in 20 books!


Thanks!

I fixed that issue (my bad) plus sent you a PM - Correct link is https://www.facebook.com/michael.anderle.16


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks for sharing. Its a great post and interesting process. I wish I could write faster but I need to work on the just 'plain writing' part first. I'm going to watch from the sidelines.


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## reneepawlish (Nov 14, 2011)

Great post. I am sending you a PM as well


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

You know what I saw this earlier and the week and didn't read it until now.

For me it just shows there are many different ways to reach a goal. I loved this and really for me it emphasises one things. release, release, release. A good new book seems to trump any marketing you can do, and hitting a monthly or by-monthly schedule is a pretty big deal. I'm working on tightening my ship so I can hit  a by-monthly schedule, and start a new series. What I would like to do is either write one series sin the morning and one in the afternoon or just alternate months and make sure that why one is in editing that I am working on the next one. I'd love to have two series going each with a book coming out every 60 days. I might not get there right away, but I will get there.

I have three series in mind so who knows.,,,,


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Yep, this thread is getting bookmarked for later perusal and dissection. Thanks for this manderle!


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## mojomikey (Apr 9, 2014)

[quote 
I fixed that issue (my bad) plus sent you a PM - Correct link is https://www.facebook.com/michael.anderle.16
[/quote]

Just sent friend request - was that what you wanted? It looks like your personal page.

I would love to join the FB group! Thanks for the inspiring story


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

I just sent you a friend request, too. Excellent post!


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

Great, helpful post, Michael! I'll be looking for your latest interview with Stephen Campbell.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Thanks for sharing this AWESOME, highly inspiring story! I definitely want to be part of your Facebook group. Sending request now.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

mojomikey said:


> [quote
> I fixed that issue (my bad) plus sent you a PM - Correct link is https://www.facebook.com/michael.anderle.16
> 
> Just sent friend request - was that what you wanted? It looks like your personal page.
> ...


If you haven't been added to the group, grab me again as I "think" I've done everyone at this point. If I've missed you, my sincere apologies.

Michael

P.S., Today I will be out traveling (same tomorrow) until tomorrow evening when I hit Austin.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Chris Fox said:


> I've released a book every month for the last six months. The difference this has made in my income is insane. Every month is a record month.


Chris, what can you share on these numbers that would help show potential to others? Is there an issue due to the books are different (non-fiction - fiction) or are you producing under pen names as well? What was your experience with Audible recordings and omnibuses?

Look forward to chatting with you in Austin!

Michael


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

Hi, Michael. Thank you for sharing your experiences and best of luck with your career. I also sent you a Fb friend request.


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

I just got done listening to Michael's interview on Author Biz.

A great conversation.


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## JTriptych (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks for writing this thread. Really good information that helps.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

RobCornell said:


> Hey, it was your interview on the Author Biz that drew me back to KBoards, as I hadn't been on for a long time. So I not only have you to thank for the great info from Stephen's interview, but for getting me back here, where I have devoured a whole bunch of info that is totally changing how I approach publishing.
> 
> Your success is very inspiring. Keep it up!


Thank you! Rob, do you have any specifics to share on your thinking?

Michael


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

manderle said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I fixed that issue (my bad) plus sent you a PM - Correct link is https://www.facebook.com/michael.anderle.16


I signed up for the group, but it looks like your personal Facebook page. I sent a Friend Request.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Good deal on it all, Michael!  And 100% agreed. There are many paths to the top of this Everest, and many of them are still undiscovered - just waiting for trailblazers like yourself to hack their way through.

ps: though, seriously, get to work on those audiobooks.  You're leaving money on the table without them.


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## amerie (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi Micheal,

I sent a friend request too! I would love to join your group.  And thank you for all the helpful advice; I absolutely love posts/threads like this one. So much awesome information


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## angela65 (Oct 8, 2014)

Add me to the friends request! Great information. Thanks.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I see a lot of elements of this approach that fit with where I am. PM sent and friend request on FB. Thanks so much for posting the insights, Michael.


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## J.J. Fitch (Jun 17, 2015)

I sent you a PM on facebook, too!


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## Cxxxxxxx (May 30, 2015)

This sounds great! Just sent you a Facebook message.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

RobCornell said:


> Your idea of using short stories to address the cliff is pretty interesting, and definitely something to consider.


I tried that in SO, but it didn't work. It only really works in a genre where shorts are accepted.


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## BeachB (Sep 3, 2013)

Sent friend request. Hope you are enjoying Austin.  Cool place.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Thanks for posting... I've been amazed since I saw your video interview on The Author Biz!!! 

Also sent a request to join the reader group. 

Quick question - I'm not sure if I got this right. Are group members basically releasing their novel live in 15-20k installments as they write? Then bundling up those installments into one novel when finished?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> Quick question - I'm not sure if I got this right. Are group members basically releasing their novel live in 15-20k installments as they write? Then bundling up those installments into one novel when finished?


I don't know about the group members since I just joined and am getting my feet wet, but isn't that largely how Hugh Howey started writing Wool and Sand and Beacon 23? Short installments then bundled into the full novel?


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## Craig Martelle (Feb 6, 2016)

Urban Mogul said:


> Thanks for posting... I've been amazed since I saw your video interview on The Author Biz!!!
> 
> Quick question - I'm not sure if I got this right. Are group members basically releasing their novel live in 15-20k installments as they write? Then bundling up those installments into one novel when finished?


Michael was kind enough to let me join his group as well. In his first KBoards post, he noted that there are all different kinds of ways to get to the top. I don't feel he is prescriptive. The forum throws out ideas and helps people work through an approach that works best for them. The 20k stories won't work for me, but another idea that was tossed out was permafree short stories to introduce readers to your characters. Set the hook. Keep your novels priced. Or have the first in your series free. Although there is a certain slant on marketing, I believe Michael's real premise is to write, edit, publish, improve, and keep writing. When quality and quantity are matched, you'll make good money. Marketing is easy if you have a good product and a track record of keeping the books coming. Just my opinions, but I'm already tweaking my approach to putting books on the market thanks to Michael's group.


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

Urban Mogul said:


> Quick question - I'm not sure if I got this right. Are group members basically releasing their novel live in 15-20k installments as they write? Then bundling up those installments into one novel when finished?


That's one idea that is being tested, but I believe the group is open to testing any viable idea. I think they are referring to _series_ here, rather than _serials_. With _serials_ you might be better off to publish a box set of three first, then release each serial every 1 to 3 weeks along with a note in the first line of the blurb stating that the box set is available. This may reduce reader disappointment and cut down on the number of bad reviews. Some people call this a reverse launch.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

manderle said:


> To those who want to get involved in the 20 books to 50k FB Group, message me on Facebook so I can add you to the group.


Do you allow folks to join Anonymously? How does one do that for a FB Group?



manderle said:


> 3) Hacking the right story idea: Plan your book in 15-20k installments


I see that your books are around 300 pages which would be approx. 100,000 words. Have you seen the above strategy work before? I am willing to give it a try in the future, but probably under a pen name.


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## benlovejoy (Feb 28, 2016)

Sent you a FB message, but it will go to your Other tab.


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## benlovejoy (Feb 28, 2016)

SidK said:


> Do you allow folks to join Anonymously? How does one do that for a FB Group?


You can't be anonymous in a Facebook group (well, not without creating a fake account, which would be against the TOS).


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Michael, how long is---approximately---each of your vampire book? The first one says 299 pages. That's usually over 100,000 words for an ebook. Are they over 100 K? Does the fact that you have a space between each paragraph influence the length of each book? If they're over 100K, I'm amazed at your writing speed..,


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

He said in his author biz interview that they are around 70k in length. I didn't look to see if the paperback is out but if it is that will influence what Amazon lists as the length.

The old method is 250 words a page, not sure how Amazon does it. My last book was about 65k and it was around 172 on Amazon. Granted via the 250 words per page it would have been 260. Which is about where I expect the paperback to be when I put it together.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

Bbates024 said:


> He said in his author biz interview that they are around 70k in length. I didn't look to see if the paperback is out but if it is that will influence what Amazon lists as the length.
> 
> The old method is 250 words a page, not sure how Amazon does it. My last book was about 65k and it was around 172 on Amazon. Granted via the 250 words per page it would have been 260. Which is about where I expect the paperback to be when I put it together.


Thanks for letting me know that. My books are 70K and I can tell you they are no way near 299 pages. He does not have paperbacks of his books, only ebooks. So the reason they show up as so incredibly long then must because of all the spaces he has added in the formatting. I'm now considering adding spaces in my books as well, I have to admit as I have lots of page reads. Michael, if you see this, feel free to chime in


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

juliatheswede said:


> So the reason they show up as so incredibly long then must because of all the spaces he has added in the formatting.


It sounds like what could happen if the book was double spaced. For some reason, some people seem to think double spacing is appropriate in an eBook (or dont think), when it isn't. Its submission to agents and publishers format only.

I for one won't read a book which is double spaced. No, correct that, I can't read a book which is double spaced. Ok, can't and won't.

But double spacing would give a longer than should be number of pages.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> It sounds like what could happen if the book was double spaced. For some reason, some people seem to think double spacing is appropriate in an eBook (or dont think), when it isn't. Its submission to agents and publishers format only.
> 
> I for one won't read a book which is double spaced. No, correct that, I can't read a book which is double spaced. Ok, can't and won't.
> 
> But double spacing would give a longer than should be number of pages.


Yes, as someone who spent years submitting to agents, I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to double-spacing lines. However, in this case it's only paragraphs that are double-spaced. It looks a little odd, but since I can't see anyone in the reviews complaining about the formatting, I'm guessing ppl just don't care. Which is why I may do it to my own books. Will have to think about it...


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

juliatheswede said:


> Yes, as someone who spent years submitting to agents, I know exactly what you're talking about in regards to double-spacing lines. However, in this case it's only paragraphs that are double-spaced. It looks a little odd, but since I can't see anyone in the reviews complaining about the formatting, I'm guessing ppl just don't care. Which is why I may do it to my own books. Will have to think about it...


Anything that puts a large gap on a kindle page, is a put off to the reader. (well me anyway.)

Think twice about it. With all the kenpc changes being made, its possible at some point Amazon might crack down on empty spaces in books, generally.

It is possible that people who see the gaps in the sample, dont buy or read. Hence no reviews. They reject and move on without giving the book any thought at all.


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## juliatheswede (Mar 26, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> Anything that puts a large gap on a kindle page, is a put off to the reader. (well me anyway.)
> 
> Think twice about it. With all the kenpc changes being made, its possible at some point Amazon might crack down on empty spaces in books, generally.
> 
> It is possible that people who see the gaps in the sample, dont buy or read. Hence no reviews. They reject and move on without giving the book any thought at all.


Good points. I won't do it Hope your headaches are getting better. I can relate. I have horrible migraines that prevent me from writing as much as I should.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

juliatheswede said:


> Michael, how long is---approximately---each of your vampire book? The first one says 299 pages. That's usually over 100,000 words for an ebook. Are they over 100 K? Does the fact that you have a space between each paragraph influence the length of each book? If they're over 100K, I'm amazed at your writing speed..,


Sorry, I'm almost never on here because of ... well, stuff. I'm happy to answer the questions as best I can. If you ever want to know something, please reach me on Facebook as I'm having to spend my time over there building up the FB group. There are something like 60 new members and I've been scrambling like crazy to bring the resources up to snuff. We have Dan Wood from Draft2Digital lurking and Mark L From Kobo as well as a few others accessible now (totally due to being at the Smarter Artist Summit with the SPP guys). Anyone can join (you need to be an author), but the expectation is that any question is a good question but being a jerk or argumentative will get someone booted out pretty quickly. I think I mentioned that the FB groups goal is to figure out how to make a living with our writing more quickly (or hacking the process). For some, that won't jive and I'm ok with that. However, I'm opinionated and those who want to argue the point won't be invited to stay in the group. There are plenty of forums for civil discussion (and not so civil) when differences of opinion occur, but it's just not my thing when the _stated purpose of the group_ is to focus on making money with our books.

My book 1 is 76k words. *BUT* - That includes a little of Book 2 intro AND about 1k for the Author Notes. I don't personally do jack s##t w/ the spacing in Scrivener on purpose. That is all Scrivener and KDP playing hooligans on me. I WOULD make sure that there is a space between paragraphs if I could control it, but I haven't found that button yet. To my knowledge, there is no double spacing in the paragraphs, I can't stand that either.

I can tell you that when I have discussions between the main character and her alien symbiont I have them in all bold and put a line space between them. So, some of their conversations WILL absolutely (and have every time I've noticed in a Kindle) pad the conversation by putting spaces between their replies. Personally, again, I find that easier to read but it isn't something I'm trying to control, it just is. That I like it is a nice by-product. That it affects the page count is nice as well but their conversations don't take up too much of the book.

When KENPCV2 came out, I was one of those who lost 18-25%. Once again, no idea why. I never tried anything but 'Export from Scrivener for Kindle' and 'Import file' in KDP. <shrug> Couldn't tell you what they did nor did I care (after crying - just a little - for 10 minutes), just kept on going.

The only absolutely-on-purpose effort to add pages I've done was asking Rick Gualtieri for his first book so I could add it at the end of book 5. My fans were reading a book and then 'When can we have the next one?' Even when producing quickly, it was a bit much for me. So, I figured I could hopefully send some of the readers to Rick's Bill the Vampire series (which was accomplished). The worst, I figured, was that it padded the book length and someone would be upset.

I didn't receive any complaints with adding Rick's story. I started with a 500 word intro why my characters were reading the book and then put his 10k words into the book.

I DID, however; receive one or two complaints when I did the review responses at the back. However, those that loved them drowned out those that didn't. Just another case of you won't please everyone. I did that as a response to the 'you can't respond to reviews' thread. I, sorta, understand on Amazon. But it was pissing me off not to be able to reply to some of them. So, in book 5 (again) I copied the reviews and provided my comments. I left off 1 & 2 star reviews because, let's face it, if they were leaving 1 or 2 star reviews on book 1 what were the chances they would be reading book 5? So, I told all my readers if they wanted to have me answer their review, I would do it until I received 50 reviews on book 1 and then stop (well, I said that in #6). Either way, a tuck-fun of fans loved me doing that. It seems that the more I do things I 'shouldn't' do, the more fans like it. In the last week or two leading up to the release of book 7, I added something like 15-20 reviews as readers put them up to get into the next book.

I have a lot of conversation in my stories and I separate all characters speaking into their own paragraphs. I, personally, don't like when people are speaking in the same paragraph. Don't know if that matters to the page count discussion but I thought I would mention it.

I'm sorry I'm late to answering this thread, but response for the offer to join the group was way more than I expected and building the resources for the group(s) has been taking all of my time. We have 15 beta editors / beta readers as a common pool for those authors who don't have their own available and we have a professional editor in that group available for questions from the Beta Editor / Readers members as well.

I'm just trying my best to help. If I've pissed some people off in the process because I'm stepping on toes, well it wasn't my intention and for that I'm sorry. On the other hand, if I've pissed people off because I've stepped in their dogma and I'm scraping it off? Yeah, you can guess my response to that one. I'm a live and let live kind of guy but I will respond, at times, to point out what I see as religious arguments. I was vocal at the Smarter Artist Summit about the KU vs Wide debate and had a civil discourse with Sean and Johnnie about the subject. I don't mind disagreeing, but don't think someones 'buyers remorse' response requires validation.

Oh...screw it.

<SOAPBOX>

General comments have been that 'wide' is the only way to go. It will take 9 months to get somewhere. etc. etc. For some, especially those who see no traction in KU, why the heck wouldn't they immediately go wide? It makes NO sense not to.

For those who are making good money in KU, why wouldn't you expect them to continue that while it lasts? We aren't talking small change here, but LARGE differences as much as 6-figure amounts annually. Who has the right to 'demand' that someone should go wide if they are taking that kind of money out of their pocket? Just because someone wants to beat that drum? Trust me, $50k in the bank because of KU is a ... LOT ... of insurance for many authors. If they can't save that money? That isn't a KU vs Wide issue, that's a bad money management issue.

I had a long conversation w/ Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) last Monday night. The best solution I could come up with during our conversation (which, strangely enough, Chris Fox had already implemented weeks ago) is to put some special written books Wide and 'plant your seeds'. That way, IF Amazon becomes the boogeyman every 'Go Wide' proponent demands they will, you're prepared. Heck, you're prepared when your series finally starts stalling in KU (which I think is more likely, anyway).

Let those winning in KU be in KU. Let those who go wide go wide. This isn't the Hatfields vs the McCoys here everyone. My questions are showing that, so far, not every 'wide' book seller is good with all genre's.

My sales are in multiple countries. That's kinda cool. But what makes my family able to eat at night isn't being in 50 countries where 46 of them net me $125.43. It's being in the stores that net me 98% of my income. For me, that's the U.S. and Australia (first and second). I've sold in Japan... It was a cool feeling, but the money couldn't take out my family of four for lunch at McDonald's.

I had a wonderful talk with an author WHO IS WIDE AND LIVING OFF HER WRITING. As I kept seeking answers to why she was wide, it boiled down to her sense of security. I completely understand that response. I get it. I also get having $50k in the bank as a level of security, too and if someone can't perceive that as ok for me, _then what are they really arguing_? It becomes a religious discussion at that point and we are in business, not religion.

I'm going to write some short story series in the nearish future just so I get experience and my name out in the other stores. However, by the time I finish my series I will have netted over 6 figures in KU income (barring obvious changes...yada yada). At that point, I'll move them wide and have some history in those accounts as well.

That's just what I'm going to do. It makes sense to me and me only. Everyone has their own story. I overheard people who are wide proponents say that they are going to check out KU again. Why? Because the money is there (at the moment).

For those worried about Amazon changing the 70% income I only have one word.

Apple.

Until Apple decides to change their model, I have a hard time believing Amazon would go back to 35%. Could they change to 60%? Yeah, I could see that. But I'm not going to change to 'what might be' when 'what is now' is effective.

For those who say you need to get into the stores so that in three to five years I'll be prepared to reap the (proposed) benefits of the countries that are coming along? Sorry, I'm not going to ignore the income I know about over the next 3 years. I've been in technology a long time. I was there for the time when 'JAVA' was the Messiah programming language. I've lived through so many technology revolutions I'm bored with it, now. Yes, we will change. It is pretty rare, however; when consumer change happens quickly. Tech people (such as myself) will grab a new technology because it's cool as ... well, it's shiny and cool. Our biggest issues as authors isn't (I think) what most believe.

It's the older generation dying and the WattPad generation taking their place. As I see my audience, they skew older, not younger. What are you going to do to get the person who expects to read for free on WattPad or Fan-Fiction to move over and buy your story? That's the sales funnel I worry about in the future.

It will be the experience of your characters, your tribe, the group you build around your stories that matter. Most of us need to learn from the Romance writers and buddy up to them, they are the ones who have this craft down pat. People want to belong to a group, and WattPad (to my knowledge) isn't going to provide that rich an experience, can't provide that rich an experience as I can on my own. But it will be work, hard work where I get over my sense of rejection and keep getting out there and doing things with my fans. That makes a difference.

</SOAPBOX>

Look, I love kBoards. This was the first forum after Amazon's I found. There have been some STELLAR discussions on here. But you know what? It isn't helping some authors. I know this because they are asking for help. I'm not prepared to help everyone, I'm too ignorant of all of the issues to know the answers, but I'm willing to try. I'm willing to say 'I could be wrong, but' to enough of them. Most don't have editors / readers. So, I asked my group and my fans if they would step up and be willing to help others.

And they did.

I have SEM's (Subject Matter Experts) who gig me when I'm wrong in my book. So, I ask them where they see my mistake, then I ask them if they would be open to other authors asking them questions.

And they are.

So, when I can get the first two pieces finished, the SEM group is going to get on board. Readers with decades of experience are HAPPY to help. When we do so, they tell two friends and so on, and so on...

If you are reading this and mad at me right now, for whatever reason, just ask yourself 'what are you doing to help other authors?' If nothing or very little is the answer, then start your group! I'm not in competition with you at all. Want to talk w/ Dan or Mark or any of the other people in my group? JUST JOIN AND MESSAGE THEM! They are here for all of us. They are part of a lot of groups, mine isn't special at all. They are awesome people. If you are mad at me because ... (here we go again)...

* My covers are crap
* My editing is horrible
* My stories are simple
* My (insert common gripe here)...

Then guess what? You aren't my stories target audience and that is ok!

If you are mad that my readers like my stories that isn't a condemnation of my readers (and if it is, who are you to judge people you don't know?) It is a statement that you have made a mistake understanding the market. Fortunately, it is correctable - you just have to be willing to perceive reality as it is, not as you desire it to be.

I was speaking to a well known author who has received a HUGE push back due to some controversial suggestions he has made. While I understand the complaints, they really boil down to someone's feeling of inadequacy on one side, and this authors lack of stating that his efforts are achievable 'for some' on the other. But he is showing us what is possible and many are doing twice as much as before because they see what is possible.

The four minute mile was impossible for humans to achieve, until it wasn't. Englishmen Roger Bannister broke it on May 6th, 1954. Now, it is the standard for middle distance runners.

Stop telling everyone what isn't achievable and start believing we can do it. If not separately, then together.

There is no need to nitpick the details of my page count (no offense to the original question as it was said very kindly). If I don't have a story that resonates, it doesn't matter if it is 299, 399 or 1099 because the reader won't go past page 15.

My focus is trying to figure out how we learn much earlier in the writing process if we have story that resonates. That way, if you are someone who can't get more than 1,000 words in a day no matter what happens, it doesn't matter. Because at 3,000 words you have a good idea if you should keep going or not.

Will we miss some great stories? Possibly. But if it allows 100 authors to earn a living faster are you willing to slam me for it? Because, at the end of the day dogma shouldn't stop an author from eating.

Just say no to dogma and write more stories. The readers want them, and I want you all to give them great stories that sell, too.

Michael Anderle


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

manderle said:


> My book 1 is 76k words. *BUT* - That includes a little of Book 2 intro AND about 1k for the Author Notes. I don't personally do jack s##t w/ the spacing in Scrivener on purpose. That is all Scrivener and KDP playing hooligans on me. I WOULD make sure that there is a space between paragraphs if I could control it, but I haven't found that button yet. To my knowledge, there is no double spacing in the paragraphs, I can't stand that either.
> 
> I can tell you that when I have discussions between the main character and her alien symbiont I have them in all bold and put a line space between them. So, some of their conversations WILL absolutely (and have every time I've noticed in a Kindle) pad the conversation by putting spaces between their replies.
> 
> ...


I call all this padding. Your page count is lying to the reader about the length of YOUR story.

I call your dialogue double spaced - and I absolutely wont read a book spread out like that.

I would also find bold all the time to be too hard on the eyes. And again, being a larger font size, its also adding to the padding.

Basically, you've said enough for me to not bother looking at your books at all.

The rest - I have no dog in this hunt.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Bbates024 said:


> He said in his author biz interview that they are around 70k in length. I didn't look to see if the paperback is out but if it is that will influence what Amazon lists as the length.
> 
> The old method is 250 words a page, not sure how Amazon does it. My last book was about 65k and it was around 172 on Amazon. Granted via the 250 words per page it would have been 260. Which is about where I expect the paperback to be when I put it together.


The 250 words per page figure is for manuscripts, not actual physical books. Here's what came up on Google when I searched for the average word count in a paperback:



> *The 250-word page is a really low estimate that's generally used to calculate manuscript pages, not printed books. For print books, a mass-market paperback runs around 300-350 words per page. A trade paperback (6"x9") (or hardcover) runs around 350-400 depending on typesetting.*


I've noticed at least two popular authors on this forum that have physical editions which result in a padded page count.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

Thanks for the long response Michael. The 'Short Story' series strategy is definitely intriguing and I am inclining towards trying it out sometimes in the future.


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## Bree Roberts (Dec 1, 2012)

Thank you so much for this post. For me, it's very timely. I feel like I've missed a boat to success and it's years too late, but if you just started in Nov. 2015, then that changes things for me in my head.

My brother and I are planning out a series (I only have one full-length novel published, but hey that's better than nothing!).  I worry that we won't see any money at all, based on the flatline of my one novel. My brother has a brilliant plot and I get to put it to words. He has no job at the moment. If I can take his brilliant plot, which spans several books, and get it down on paper and get him some sales that he can exist on, then I will consider that a huge success. He's moving cross-country to be close and we're getting started with the plotline and actual writing later this month (very exciting!). The first thing I'm going to have him do is read posts like yours on kboards to get him excited too!

Congratulations on your success! I'll be studying you (note: NOT stalking ... much) and hope I can glean enough info to emulate just a small percentage of your success. In the end, it comes down to sitting down and actually writing a good story. Or three. Or twenty.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> I call all this padding. Your page count is lying to the reader about the length of YOUR story.
> 
> I call your dialogue double spaced - and I absolutely wont read a book spread out like that.
> 
> ...


Ok, that is all fair and a personal preference (well, except the 'count is lying' which I didn't do that on purpose and lying is intent, isn't it?) - Not sure what you want to do when the purpose of providing a part of book 2 to get people involved in the next book is a relevant strategy? Perhaps mention it in the blurb? To use accusatory language means that you have strong feelings on the subject and while I would submit 'innocent' to the charges it won't change your feelings.

Once again, I don't double space my lines in my paragraphs. I've never seen this in my books, but I don't have the latest (I'll ask around if the latest did something?) I don't change to a _larger_ font (it is bold - that is on purpose). I DO separate paragraphs with a space. I grew up that way and hate reading when all the paragraphs are shoved together (just a personal reader preference on my part).

It isn't like authors which use the strategy (adding the start of the next book at the end of a book) in a series are 'ALL' doing this to affect the page count. I (personally) don't. In fact, I wasn't that aware of the page count for the paperback because I don't CARE what the amount is. Paperback page count doesn't affect my spreadsheet for income calculations so while I register it in the beginning when I setup the lookup table for the book, I don't remember it nor care.

It's easy to see that I have _no_ paperbacks for sale. If it is a well-understood Indie marketing tactic to pad paperback page counts to increase readership that isn't something I'm aware of being a) a dastardly tactic p*ss ing authors off or b) very effective. It hasn't come up in the many podcasts I've listened to <shrug>.

As for the part that is personal preference I respect that. Just like I respect my preference may be different and we are both right. It could be that I'm only 10% of the reading public and it is still right for _me_.

So, not sure why it matters here? Is this (padded paperback counts conversation) something that is floating around the forum and Indie Author-sphere? Have I stumbled into the mine field of yet another flaming war because I've had success? Someone feel free to explain it to me. Trust me, if I heard it from my fans, I would know about this. In fact (once again), I'll deal with this like I ALWAYS deal with these issues.

I'll just ask the freaking readers, because at the end of the day what I think or what another author thinks matters what when it is the voice of the fans that we all should be listening to? Of course, this could cause a large and curt discussion, but we shall all see. I don't think we should be annoyed with each other when the substance of the conversation is 'read through' not 'if they read my book, they don't buy your book' mentality.

Here is the forum post I created to ask 'my' readers - I don't have access to others, feel FREE to email your readers and have them answer the question however they would like. If I've missed the gist of the real question let me know: https://www.amazon.com/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html/ref=cm_cd_et_up_redir?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2LGFPPMJOE6CZ&cdPage=1&cdThread=Tx202X1PGY31ZTO&newContentID=Mx14SX16EL1ANRH#Mx14SX16EL1ANRH

I have my numbers for read through in the series, and here they are:

For all time (all books sold & KENPC)

The Kurtherian Gambit series as of 4/4/2016 to date:

73.9% of book 1 readers Read book 2
94.4% of book 2 readers Read book 3
92.2% of book 3 readers Read book 4
92.8% of book 4 readers Read book 5
93.4% of book 5 readers Read book 6
82.7% of book 6 readers Read book 7 (this book had just been out 4 weeks, so it does take a while for those who finished book six 7 weeks ago catch up at times. I usually assume (from no calculation other than a guesstimate) about 8 weeks.

I haven't heard what a 'good' read through from 1 to 2 is. I've the opinion (but not substantiated) that almost 75% is pretty high which means that the readers are enjoying the story for the most part and moving forward. I've heard of 90% in one case and I've heard of 40%.

There are MILLIONS and MILLIONS (I can almost hear 'billllllions and billllllions...') of avid readers. That I don't hit 98% of them to read my books is ok with me. It could be for any various well deserved opinions. Timothy states his objections and I'm absolutely OK with this. I've enjoyed his books and that mine aren't on his list is completely fine. I'll always know what his series has done for me and my enjoyment.

It could be that I've p*ssed off a paranormal fan because my book moves to sci-fi. It could be they hated the movie Death Becomes Her and won't read my book 1 due to that reason.

All VALID personal reasons to not enjoy the book or not even give it a shot. That's GREAT! That means there are another 4 million books for them to peruse.

If we are spending our time arguing something, I can only assume it is due to the 'indie author' label and if one of us is artificially inflating their PPC because they feel it helps sell books, we all suffer.

Honestly, that is treating our readers as idiots. I'm capable of reading book one and deciding before the end of the book if I am going to finish it. I've NEVER personally been upset when I've read hundreds of books that someone had something cool and fun to read in the back. Next book? I'm up for it and if I'm not, it never registered on my radar that it inflated the page count as I've seen this marketing strategy as far back in the 80's.

I encourage you to check out the forum to see if we have any responses, send your readers to the forum post (or start your own). Let's ask the readers what they think, they are adults after all.

Michael


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Bree Roberts said:


> Thank you so much for this post. For me, it's very timely. I feel like I've missed a boat to success and it's years too late, but if you just started in Nov. 2015, then that changes things for me in my head.
> 
> My brother and I are planning out a series (I only have one full-length novel published, but hey that's better than nothing!). I worry that we won't see any money at all, based on the flatline of my one novel. My brother has a brilliant plot and I get to put it to words. He has no job at the moment. If I can take his brilliant plot, which spans several books, and get it down on paper and get him some sales that he can exist on, then I will consider that a huge success. He's moving cross-country to be close and we're getting started with the plotline and actual writing later this month (very exciting!). The first thing I'm going to have him do is read posts like yours on kboards to get him excited too!
> 
> Congratulations on your success! I'll be studying you (note: NOT stalking ... much) and hope I can glean enough info to emulate just a small percentage of your success. In the end, it comes down to sitting down and actually writing a good story. Or three. Or twenty.


Bree, it isn't stalking when I invite you to join us, right? Feel free to join the 20booksto50k group on Facebook. We Do NOT have all of the answers, but we are hacking the effort and making resources (like beta readers / editors and SME's) available to the group to help you get your products out faster.

Michael


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

manderle said:


> Once again, I don't double space my lines in my paragraphs. I've never seen this in my books, but I don't have the latest (I'll ask around if the latest did something?) I don't change to a _larger_ font (it is bold - that is on purpose). I DO separate paragraphs with a space. I grew up that way and hate reading when all the paragraphs are shoved together (just a personal reader preference on my part).


I guess it depends what you use to write in. Word with an extra space, gives you a double space between paragraphs. Word Perfect doesn't. No idea what other programs do.

My point is, the extra space could be costing you buyers and readers, and you'd never know. Just because your readers dont complain about it, doesn't mean it isn't losing you money by doing. The only poll that matters here is the one of people who looked inside, but didn't read. And you will never know who they are.

And the damage is on book 1. The conversion rate is irrelevant, because those people are ok with your formatting. It's the ones who look at it, shudder, and go look at another one without reading anything, you miss out on.


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## Book Cat (Jan 3, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> I guess it depends what you use to write in. Word with an extra space, gives you a double space between paragraphs. Word Perfect doesn't. No idea what other programs do.
> 
> My point is, the extra space could be costing you buyers and readers, and you'd never know. Just because your readers dont complain about it, doesn't mean it isn't losing you money by doing. The only poll that matters here is the one of people who looked inside, but didn't read. And you will never know who they are.
> 
> And the damage is on book 1. The conversion rate is irrelevant, because those people are ok with your formatting. It's the ones who look at it, shudder, and go look at another one without reading anything, you miss out on.


It might be just me, but I've never bought or not bought a book based on its formatting. As long as it's legible, that's fine with me.

When I get around to setting up a Facebook account, I think I'll join this group. It sounds like it could be helpful for a writer trying to finish their first book they plan to publish.

Thanks for all the info and inspiration.


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## T S Paul (Jan 6, 2016)

RileyMorrison said:


> It might be just me, but I've never bought or not bought a book based on its formatting. As long as it's legible, that's fine with me.
> 
> When I get around to setting up a Facebook account, I think I'll join this group. It sounds like it could be helpful for a writer trying to finish their first book they plan to publish.
> 
> Thanks for all the info and inspiration.


Riley I help to moderate the group Drop either me or Michael a line and we will let you in.


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## DanaFraser (Apr 5, 2016)

New kboards member, Michael. My wife said I couldn't use her account. I sent a PM and friend request on FB to join your FB group. Best regards, Ed.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> I guess it depends what you use to write in. Word with an extra space, gives you a double space between paragraphs. Word Perfect doesn't. No idea what other programs do.
> 
> My point is, the extra space could be costing you buyers and readers, and you'd never know. Just because your readers dont complain about it, doesn't mean it isn't losing you money by doing. The only poll that matters here is the one of people who looked inside, but didn't read. And you will never know who they are.
> 
> And the damage is on book 1. The conversion rate is irrelevant, because those people are ok with your formatting. It's the ones who look at it, shudder, and go look at another one without reading anything, you miss out on.


I'm not sure how damaging an extra space between paragraphs would ever be! I grew up in a time when many print books were formatted that way and I personally prefer it, though I don't publish that way as it is less common now.

There's enough readers to go around, and I don't think they worry at all about some of the things we do. Including excerpts of another book at the back - common procedure, particularly in YA and fantasy. Worrying about absolute word count - most readers don't really care and they'll stop when they want to stop, so it doesn't matter if someone puts extras in to 'pad' things for KU. If the reader wanted to actually read those extras, then that's a valid read and page count.


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## JE_Owen (Feb 22, 2015)

> It will be the experience of your characters, your tribe, the group you build around your stories that matter. Most of us need to learn from the Romance writers and buddy up to them, they are the ones who have this craft down pat. People want to belong to a group, and WattPad (to my knowledge) isn't going to provide that rich an experience, can't provide that rich an experience as I can on my own. But it will be work, hard work where I get over my sense of rejection and keep getting out there and doing things with my fans. That makes a difference.


I really like that you said this. I sell in Middle Grade / YA where sales are significantly lower than many adult genres, but I call my readers my Gryfon Pride, I answer all letters, I'm forging, I hope, a community where readers can come and feel like they're part of the world. I absolutely agree that author accessibility (for those who are comfortable with it) is going to be one wave of the future.

Cheers and best of luck with your endeavors!


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

wow


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

EdFraser said:


> New kboards member, Michael. My wife said I couldn't use her account. I sent a PM and friend request on FB to join your FB group. Best regards, Ed.


Happy to have you! If you haven't joined (Sorry, I didn't look) you will be #80 in the FB Group. Join before we move to the forum software and you can say 'back when we did this on Facebook' ;-)

Request to Join here (Everyone is accepted - Those being a jerk get warned once then released to focus their attention elsewhere): https://www.facebook.com/groups/781495321956934/

Hope you have success always, Ed!

Michael


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

manderle said:


> _I'm an Authoring Outlaw, I just ride my own path..._
> 
> If you asked people (especially authors) how they would write a story to get to the top of a mountain, I can only imagine some of the responses (some, not all) such as:
> 
> ...


It looks like you published in November 2, 2015 not December and you appeared to have published 3 in November 2015. That's why you had such a pick up. People like a series where they don't have to wait. It's simple math and KDP


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

JE_Owen said:


> I really like that you said this. I sell in Middle Grade / YA where sales are significantly lower than many adult genres, but I call my readers my Gryfon Pride, I answer all letters, I'm forging, I hope, a community where readers can come and feel like they're part of the world. I absolutely agree that author accessibility (for those who are comfortable with it) is going to be one wave of the future.
> 
> Cheers and best of luck with your endeavors!


Thank you JE!

My hats are off to all of you that are making the effort to write to mid-grade and ya. I talked w/ Clark Chamberlain on how freaking difficult mid-grade is and I have no ideas how to crack that market.

I wish you the very best!

Michael


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

WIP said:


> It looks like you published in November 2, 2015 not December and you appeared to have published 3 in November 2015. That's why you had such a pick up. People like a series where they don't have to wait. It's simple math and KDP


Seriously?

I have ALL the respect in the world for Timothy Ellis and his concise and clarified points that we (might) differ on. If you would like to just 'brush off' something as 'lot's of books, simple math and KDP' then you, my friend, have the recipe you need and I wish you the best of luck.

Trust me, your comment is wrong, based on experience.

I've been blessed to be around some of the most well known in the Indie Publishing this last week and I'm willing to learn from those who have gone before me.

Michael

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. Please note that members are allowed to post anonymously here and many members who have extensive published lists do so for a variety of reasons. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

WIP said:


> It looks like you published in November 2, 2015 not December and you appeared to have published 3 in November 2015. That's why you had such a pick up. People like a series where they don't have to wait. It's simple math and KDP


If only it were that simple. Not every series blows up just because it has a few books and is in KU or KDP. There's more to it than just throwing stuff out there.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> If only it were that simple. Not every series blows up just because it has a few books and is in KU or KDP. There's more to it than just throwing stuff out there.


Agreed if all you had to do is launch titles we would all be millionaires.


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## JMillington (Mar 14, 2016)

Hi Michael - thank you for adding me to the group! I'm a very slow writer and am very keen to see what mindset and methodology changes might be required to hack the writing process.


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## amy_wokz (Oct 11, 2014)

JE_Owen said:


> I really like that you said this. I sell in Middle Grade / YA where sales are significantly lower than many adult genres, but I call my readers my Gryfon Pride, I answer all letters, I'm forging, I hope, a community where readers can come and feel like they're part of the world. I absolutely agree that author accessibility (for those who are comfortable with it) is going to be one wave of the future.
> 
> Cheers and best of luck with your endeavors!


Another good "tribe in action" example is T. S. Joyce, who delivers excellent paranormal fiction to her readers like clockwork and works her website and Facebook Page like a boss. Her "mobile home beginnings" background story is classic--and true--and the other day when I checked, her rank was #4 under Romance Authors. I'm hoping she does an interview pretty soon (which would shoot her up even higher in the charts), because--yes, I confess--I'm hooked on her and her writing.


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## Susan88 (Apr 6, 2016)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.  I read it twice.


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## JE_Owen (Feb 22, 2015)

amy_wokz said:


> Another good "tribe in action" example is T. S. Joyce, who delivers excellent paranormal fiction to her readers like clockwork and works her website and Facebook Page like a boss. Her "mobile home beginnings" background story is classic--and true--and the other day when I checked, her rank was #4 under Romance Authors. I'm hoping she does an interview pretty soon (which would shoot her up even higher in the charts), because--yes, I confess--I'm hooked on her and her writing.


OOOoooo thanks! I'll look her up!


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

TimothyEllis said:


> I call all this padding. Your page count is lying to the reader about the length of YOUR story.
> 
> I call your dialogue double spaced - and I absolutely wont read a book spread out like that.
> 
> ...


I just read the sample, and don't see anything wrong with the formatting, per se. There are generally two ways to show paragraph breaks. You either indent the first line of each paragraph or you put a half line space between paragraphs. Generally speaking, fiction does the former and nonfiction does the latter, but there is variance within both types of writing.

His book uses both first line indents and the half space between paragraphs. The formatting looks fine to me, and doesn't seem to detract.

Also, the PPC on Kindle books is determined by character and word counts, not by spacing... So a book using the half-line break method to show new paragraphs doesn't magically come up with more PPC than it would if the same book used first line indents - at least as far as I have been able to determine.

Obviously his readers are not bothered.  And the reading experience of his books seems not too different from any other Kindle novel, from what I saw of his sample. Why the kerfluffle?


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## Andrew Broderick (Aug 6, 2014)

First of all, hats off to you. Pretty mind blowing stuff.

Now, a question about rapid-fire releases like you're doing. Do you commission a cover artist for each one? If you do, I can imagine that gets pretty expensive given the frequency. What are your thoughts on this?


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

TimothyEllis said:


> I call all this padding. Your page count is lying to the reader about the length of YOUR story.
> 
> I call your dialogue double spaced - and I absolutely wont read a book spread out like that.
> 
> ...


Jeesh man - who kicked your puppy this morning? I don't get the negativity and meanness. Michael has had success. Now he wants to see if that's something other people can replicate. I don't think he deserves this from you at all. This kind of behavior is why many successful authors leave KB and don't come back. Please stop it.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Andrew Broderick said:


> First of all, hats off to you. Pretty mind blowing stuff.
> 
> Now, a question about rapid-fire releases like you're doing. Do you commission a cover artist for each one? If you do, I can imagine that gets pretty expensive given the frequency. What are your thoughts on this?


From reading through the thread I'm pretty sure he created hs own covers.

Your right though it can get expensive, I just commissioned the first three covers in my new SyFy series and well it's tough to have money going out when you don't have as much coming in. I think in the end a super catchy cover, blurb, and first chapter are going to be what gets people into your first in a series. After that they will stay or not stay for the writing.


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## CarolynVMurray (Mar 13, 2015)

SidK said:


> Do you allow folks to join Anonymously? How does one do that for a FB Group?
> 
> I see that your books are around 300 pages which would be approx. 100,000 words. Have you seen the above strategy work before? I am willing to give it a try in the future, but probably under a pen name.


Yes, I believe you can create a pen name page for yourself and join under that.


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## benlovejoy (Feb 28, 2016)

CarolynVMurray said:


> Yes, I believe you can create a pen name page for yourself and join under that.


You can create a Facebook page using any name you like, but you can only join a FB group as an individual - not a page - and it's in the terms of service that you use your real name (or, more precisely, a name by which you are commonly known offline).


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

benlovejoy said:


> You can create a Facebook page using any name you like, but you can only join a FB group as an individual - not a page - and it's in the terms of service that you use your real name (or, more precisely, a name by which you are commonly known offline).


That's right, I couldn't join under my author page, only under my personal one. I think listening in and contributing though is worth it. Pluss all my stuff is set to private anyway so there really isn't anything to worry about.


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## benlovejoy (Feb 28, 2016)

Exactly. I limit Facebook friends to actual friends, but I'll happily join groups as no-one who isn't a friend can see my content except the things I choose to make global.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

Bbates024 said:


> From reading through the thread I'm pretty sure he created hs own covers.
> 
> Your right though it can get expensive, I just commissioned the first three covers in my new SyFy series and well it's tough to have money going out when you don't have as much coming in. I think in the end a super catchy cover, blurb, and first chapter are going to be what gets people into your first in a series. After that they will stay or not stay for the writing.


If you're talking about the one I think, it is an AWESOME cover!

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


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## Steve Statham (Aug 1, 2016)

Great meeting you at the Indie Publishing Austin talk last night, Michael. Thanks so much for coming to speak. I learned a lot!


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## Yayoi (Apr 26, 2016)

Hi Manderle, First of all thanks so much for sharing your success story. So how much do you spend for marketing every month? Not everyone has a huge budget obviously, so what do you recommend newbies like me should do if they're marketing on a limited budget? Thanks!


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

KL_Phelps said:


> wow


Having just read the thread from the beginning, my thought exactly.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Yayoi said:


> Hi Manderle, First of all thanks so much for sharing your success story. So how much do you spend for marketing every month? Not everyone has a huge budget obviously, so what do you recommend newbies like me should do if they're marketing on a limited budget? Thanks!


Hello!

I have vacillated on using FB... Part of the mistake (my side) was NOT testing blurb and image for my ads (and, frankly, because I'm not written to market (so to speak), I've had an issue honing in on my message).

But, I've been spending about $15 a day for about 6 weeks. I'm testing to see if I can go higher, but that's only because I found a successful ad.

I (had) been receiving clicks in the $0.22 to $0.35 area, but these new ones are coming up (on average) at $0.11.

I don't ever suggest doing more than $5.00 a day at most, unless you can get a return. Remember, with so many in my series (and a high read-through rate), each new reader to book one is worth a minimum of $15.00 (to $22) to me. So, I have options to screw up. It took me a while to get there, but I have it, now.

I've spent a total of $3,331.00 so far on Facebook this year (miscellaneous amounts on ebook email lists...probably less than $400 all told). I think a minimum of $1000.00 of the FB was worthless spend (thinking a $5.00 useful spend could be ramped up to $50.00 a day and get the same results...3 weeks of that crap before I realized the answer was a big fat (expensive) NO!)

So, I hope to spend more, because it would be nice. However, I've found the absolute best marketing between the long books is a short fiction piece in the Universe for $0.99.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Andrew Broderick said:


> First of all, hats off to you. Pretty mind blowing stuff.
> 
> Now, a question about rapid-fire releases like you're doing. Do you commission a cover artist for each one? If you do, I can imagine that gets pretty expensive given the frequency. What are your thoughts on this?


I apologize Andrew, I wasn't paying attention to this due to ... shall we say negativity? Either way, I did my covers originally and have now outsourced it to Andrew Dobell from Creative Edge Studios using the income from the books.

I started the process 3 months ago...It can take a LOOOOONNNGG time to get a find a model, contact the model...setup dates etc. etc. etc. So, the covers are just now coming in but they are FINE.

Had I known back then, what I know now, I would have fronted the cover money a LOT sooner than I did.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

juliatheswede said:


> Michael, how long is---approximately---each of your vampire book? The first one says 299 pages. That's usually over 100,000 words for an ebook. Are they over 100 K? Does the fact that you have a space between each paragraph influence the length of each book? If they're over 100K, I'm amazed at your writing speed..,


Hello!

The books are 68,000 - 78,000 words each. Oh My God! Let me tell you, when you have a serial that is working? That extra 8,000 words was very, very pretty to see on the KENP reports...BUT, I just get tired by 70,000 and want to close up the story.

HTH,

Michael


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

benlovejoy said:


> You can't be anonymous in a Facebook group (well, not without creating a fake account, which would be against the TOS).


Just a quick note (as I don't really check kBoards all that often - I was told by a friend that stuff was happening here).

The FB Group is "everyone is welcome, jerks will be shown the door." There are plenty of places to call people names, make snide remarks, be rude etc. on the internet. 20booksto50k isn't one of them. There are a lot of lurkers in our group (most, actually) and I hope they get something out of it. However, drop in, ask a question if you want and see what we are trying to do.

It isn't secret science, it's just another group helping each other up "A" path. Occasionally, someone doesn't get the message that it isn't about self-promotion, either. One warning is provided in case it was an honest mistake. We tend to believe people are adults and are treated as such.

<shrug> like it or not, it is what it is. There are a LOT of groups all helping each other, find one and make your future happen!

Best to all of you,

Michael


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

juliatheswede said:


> However, in this case it's only paragraphs that are double-spaced.


That's called "block paragraphs".


TimothyEllis said:


> With all the kenpc changes being made, its possible at some point Amazon might crack down on empty spaces in books, generally.


Default Amazon formatting right now actually *is* block + indent setup on paragraphs. (Note: indented paragraphs can get called "tabbed" paragraphs, even when there isn't a tab.) I've actually have to override the formatting via CSS in order to prevent it.



KevinMcLaughlin said:


> His book uses both first line indents and the half space between paragraphs.


For folks upset about this, I have to wonder if you've looked at your own books, lately, because this seriously is Amazon's default, right now.



manderle said:


> General comments have been that 'wide' is the only way to go. It will take 9 months to get somewhere. etc. etc. For some, especially those who see no traction in KU, why the heck wouldn't they immediately go wide? It makes NO sense not to.
> 
> For those who are making good money in KU, why wouldn't you expect them to continue that while it lasts? We aren't talking small change here, but LARGE differences as much as 6-figure amounts annually. *Who has the right to 'demand' that someone should go wide if they are taking that kind of money out of their pocket?* Just because someone wants to beat that drum? Trust me, $50k in the bank because of KU is a ... LOT ... of insurance for many authors. If they can't save that money? That isn't a KU vs Wide issue, that's a bad money management issue. [bold added]


As someone who *is* wide (but sometimes sticks a new project in KU for a term or two to test), I agree. The "You must!" is BS.

I'm happy KU is working for you. That you're all in makes me cringe--I've had too much experience with sudden abrupt changes in income any time I've been exclusive, myself, including when I tried the conventional day job--but you're using the money to build a buffer that'll give you plenty of time to go wide if you ever need to.

I considered putting my new novella series in KU, myself, at least to try to get some reviews--but then I would've had to pull the first one off Wattpad, etc., so I chose not to. (I also have two versions of the story in the e-book, one with salty language and one without, which isn't something I could've done in KU. Maybe in five or ten years, at which point I expect we'll be able to use JavaScript switches to "flip" specific set words for the particular audience, but by that point I suspect KU will have been replaced by something else.)



manderle said:


> I'm going to write some short story series in the nearish future just so I get experience and my name out in the other stores.


I've found it helps to put the first one free.




manderle said:


> It's the older generation dying and the WattPad generation taking their place. As I see my audience, they skew older, not younger. What are you going to do to get the person who expects to read for free on WattPad or Fan-Fiction to move over and buy your story? That's the sales funnel I worry about in the future.


Speaking as someone who deals with those folks... Their general attitude seems to be more along the lines "Supporting this person/series/project I like" rather than "Buying something to read."


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## 67499 (Feb 4, 2013)

_I'm a Marketing Dummy, I wander in circles in the woods..._

Thank you, Michael - you've just shown me the way out, if I can figure out FB.


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Carradee said:


> Speaking as someone who deals with those folks... Their general attitude seems to be more along the lines "Supporting this person/series/project I like" rather than "Buying something to read."


I'll reach out to you about this. I have a LOT of WattPad questions and don't personally know anyone in it. I'd love to ask you stuff!

Michael


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

Steven Hardesty said:


> _I'm a Marketing Dummy, I wander in circles in the woods..._
> 
> Thank you, Michael - you've just shown me the way out, if I can figure out FB.


Thanks Steven! Here on KB or 20books or wherever, there ARE ways that work...but they come with constants. However, that is the hallmark of any working system - the emphasis is 'system'. It never guarantees success, as you have to have a certain quality of story, anyway, but it does help you refine your effort.

My latest learning on FB ads is that the Image is super...super... important. I cut my expenses by 1/2 by only changing the image. Went from $0.27 to $0.13 per click.

Michael


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Great stuff. Thanks.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

manderle said:


> Just a quick note (as I don't really check kBoards all that often - I was told by a friend that stuff was happening here).
> 
> The FB Group is "everyone is welcome, jerks will be shown the door." There are plenty of places to call people names, make snide remarks, be rude etc. on the internet. 20booksto50k isn't one of them. There are a lot of lurkers in our group (most, actually) and I hope they get something out of it. However, drop in, ask a question if you want and see what we are trying to do.
> 
> ...


Michael, I sent you a PM and I hope you get it. If the Facebook group is still active, I'd love to join.


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## JMillington (Mar 14, 2016)

Pizzazz said:


> Michael, I sent you a PM and I hope you get it. If the Facebook group is still active, I'd love to join.


Come join... the FB group has hit 2300 members, and is as active, focused and productive as ever


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## EmmaS (Jul 15, 2014)

JMillington said:


> Come join... the FB group has hit 2300 members, and is as active, focused and productive as ever


Can confirm. I just joined and I'm thrilled with what I'm seeing!


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## MiriamRosenbaum (Nov 30, 2016)

I just read through the whole thread, and wow!  

Congratz to Michael for executing such an ambitious endeavor!

As for the facebook group, who do I need to pester with PMs to get in?


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## PattiLarsen (Jan 23, 2012)

Me too, please  I'd love to connect with such a fabulous group. Now I'm stalking...


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## PattiLarsen (Jan 23, 2012)

MiriamRosenbaum said:


> I just read through the whole thread, and wow!
> 
> Congratz to Michael for executing such an ambitious endeavor!
> 
> ...


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## manderle (Dec 19, 2015)

PattiLarsen said:


> Me too, please  I'd love to connect with such a fabulous group. Now I'm stalking...


Hi folks!

There is NO secret (or secret handshake, or PM...) Just search Facebook for 20BooksTo50k and request membership. One of the four Admins will let you in as soon as we see it (or wake up and see it).

The reason I created a closed group is because occasionally, humans who are old enough and SHOULD know better, attack others personally. I've explained in the group that there are many places on the Internet to be a jerk.

20Books is NOT one of them.

Someone can hate my successful rear and we can drop a 1,000 members (or, all the way back to the 4 we started with) I don't care. I don't have enough years left in my life to listen to haters, or allow them to attack someone in a freaking group I created. They are welcome to go create their own Facebook group and be "snide, ugly, derogatory" or use other ways to cut a person down. Seriously, what is the benefit to someone for being ugly?

We don't put up with it. We are adults (most of us, one of us is 17...so close) and I have told everyone I treat members as adults. Including when they act irresponsibly, We ban them.

It's pretty freaking simple.

Now, work effort (covers, blurbs, other stuff) can be criticized because it is asked. There is a difference between critical comments on a cover, and insinuating that somehow it makes an author any less a person because they couldn't afford anything better. I don't think KBoards will allow me to say what I think about that.

Which, actually, brings me to a point. I cuss...I cuss in my books...I cuss in real life... I actually, occasionally, cuss in the Facebook group. Please be aware this is a group for adults and everyone is able to choose for themselves if our group is something you might like to be involved in. Or, just lurk. Trust me, most of the 2,300 people in there lurk.

Including me, a lot of the time ;-)

I learn something all of the time from people, and I see some amazing, heart warming support that can make my day (and grow the Grinches heart 2 sizes..too) I'd love anyone to swing by, see what's going on and if you have a few days, read the posts.

There is a LOT of good information there.

Shared Joy is Increased...Shared Pain is lessened...

Michael


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

joining now


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

The Facebook group 20booksto50K is my favorite Facebook group (and I'm a part of many groups that I enjoy very much). Moderation is on point. There is no self-promo clogging up the news feed. No one is allowed to be a jerk. The atmosphere is supportive but willing to give tough love when needed. There are a vast difference of experiences so advice isn't cookie-cutter, one true way, kind of thing. While there are many posts about marketing, writing itself isn't ignored at all. 

The only downside is that it's a very active group so spending copious amounts of time reading and replying can cut into writing time. 

I heartily recommend the group to everyone.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Felicia Beasley said:


> The only downside is that it's a very active group so spending copious amounts of time reading and replying can cut into writing time.


Seriously. This is me every time I'm about to leave and get work done...


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## Buddy Pilgrim (Aug 6, 2015)

Mentioned you in my post, Mike. Wish I had seen this one back in May. I might be co-writing with you in Gambit world by now.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

All anyone has to do is search for the group, and it will come up, if they're interested.

_Edited to remove quote, which was likely spam. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/781495321956934/

The group now has 19,792 members.

_Edited to remove quote, which was likely spam. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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