# Question for Romance Writers.



## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

So, I've been wondering this for awhile now and I realize it has the potential to turn into a very heated debate, but... my curiosity burns.


How many of you romance writers include "people of color" (black, asian, african, hispanic etc) as heroes or heroines in your stories? 

If you do, how many books out of your current collection feature POCs?

Is the POC usually the hero (top) or heroine (bottom)? Or split down the middle?

If you do not or have not, why is that?


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I'm not a romance writer yet. I'm currently finishing up a series in another genre before I delve into romance. BUT when I do begin my romance writing all my main characters will be POC. All mains in every book I write will be POC.


Nice. That's actually sort of what I do. I always include one POC. Sometimes they both end up being POC, really depends on the story. But there's always one.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

I have a couple POC in my books. I also have half-orcs, griffon shifters, dwarves, elves and non-Terran humanoids that are not accepted in their worlds. I generally write in a far future universe or in fantasy lands.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

One of the main characters and his wife in Seattle Quake 9.2 are black. I write mostly Scottish historical novels, before the time before British slavery, but I've got plenty of Vikings, if they count. One of my mysteries has an American Indian, and some of my Triplet Trilogy takes place on an Arizona Indian Reservation. I'm not opposed to writing about other ethnic groups, but I fear taking the chance of offending someone, and getting a novel trashed because of it. There is that, you know.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Martitalbott said:


> I'm not opposed to writing about other ethnic groups, but I fear taking the chance of offending someone, and getting a novel trashed because of it. There is that, you know.


I was waiting for someone to say this. People would trash a novel with a POC main? Because they're written badly?

I don't count Vikings as POC just because they're Scandinavian which is in Europe and POC generally refers to people not of European descent. I know, it's really not the best phrasing, but hey it's what we've got.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

There was a pretty good (and pretty long) thread about it quite a while back. Don't remember the name of the topic though.

It was around when I was just get started writing, and some of the issues that came up convincing me to *not* include any characters presented as POC - and generally to avoid any explicit mention of race as much as possible.

Main concerns, for me, were appealing to the broadest possible Romance audience and avoiding drawing potential ire from readers who might take offence at some aspect of how a POC was portrayed or not portrayed.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

There are very few people in this day and age in the US that aren't POC regardless of the shade of their skin. The US is a melting pot. That's what all those DNA tests have been showing people. I'm writing about people who live in the US.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

boba1823 said:


> There was a pretty good (and pretty long) thread about it quite a while back. Don't remember the name of the topic though.
> 
> It was around when I was just get started writing, and some of the issues that came up convincing me to *not* include any characters presented as POC - and generally to avoid any explicit mention of race as much as possible.
> 
> Main concerns, for me, were appealing to the broadest possible Romance audience and avoiding drawing potential ire from readers who might take offence at some aspect of how a POC was portrayed or not portrayed.


I think I missed that thread, sadly. I feel like any way you write something, you risk someone being upset about how a character is or isn't portrayed. Re: the thread about heroines, ha!

I've been sorta warring with writing what I want versus writing to the broadest possible audience. I decided I was going to write what I'd read. And I prefer to read stuff with POCs as at least one of the mains.


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## dj Rangel (Jan 6, 2018)

This is an especially interesting topic to me because I have a 3 book series coming out in the next couple of months set in San Antonio, Texas. All the heroes are Hispanic and from the um, less affluent side of town, though now are middle class. All the heroines are Anglo. I'm writing what I know. In most of my other stories, however, I usually have at least one Hispanic as a side character because where I come from, that's the way life is. Texas is pretty much a polyglot at all levels of society. I don't write other POC (and have to say, that's the first time I've encountered the term for U.S. minorities) because I don't know the cultures as well. I would not want to inadvertently offend or make a major gaffe.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

idontknowyet said:


> There are very few people in this day and age in the US that aren't POC regardless of the shade of their skin. The US is a melting pot. That's what all those DNA tests have been showing people. I'm writing about people who live in the US.


Sure....

I said POC because it's an easy identifier without going: How often do you include someone who has darker skin tone shades or differs from the norm, say speaks a language other than English in the home, has recently migrated to whatever place your work is set in, or self-identifies as a person of color (because we can say everyone's POC, but not everyone identifies as POC).


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

dj Rangel said:


> This is an especially interesting topic to me because I have a 3 book series coming out in the next couple of months set in San Antonio, Texas. All the heroes are Hispanic and from the um, less affluent side of town, though now are middle class. All the heroines are Anglo. I'm writing what I know. In most of my other stories, however, I usually have at least one Hispanic as a side character because where I come from, that's the way life is. Texas is pretty much a polyglot at all levels of society. I don't write other POC (and have to say, that's the first time I've encountered the term for U.S. minorities) because I don't know the cultures as well. I would not want to inadvertently offend or make a major gaffe.


Nice! Yeah, I've lived in TX. You're right.

I feel like "POC" is the most generic word to use considering in some places the "minority" isn't the minority, like Texas. Pretty sure there are a lot more people of majority Hispanic descent than of majority European descent. It's not the best term. But neither is minority, neither is "colored", and I didn't want to try to list every different type of person, say it wrong, offend someone, etc etc. So.. POC.


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## dj Rangel (Jan 6, 2018)

i agree on using the word minority. Even as I typed it in my original post I was thinking, 'I don't like that word.'  But then, I don't like POC, either, but I haven't a clue as to what other designation to use. Even using the term Hispanic can offend some - or terms like Latino, Chicano, Mexican-American. Whatever someone chooses to be sensitive about, I suppose.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

Most people don't live in a bubble. (Maybe some Mormon or Amish etc groups) As authors we create story from a combination of imagination and experience. Are peoples ethnicities really any issue anymore? Maybe if the author is playing up stereotypes instead of as individuals.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

dj Rangel said:


> i agree on using the word minority. Even as I typed it in my original post I was thinking, 'I don't like that word.'  But then, I don't like POC, either, but I haven't a clue as to what other designation to use. Even using the term Hispanic can offend some - or terms like Latino, Chicano, Mexican-American. Whatever someone chooses to be sensitive about, I suppose.


Yep. For example, I don't like using the world "African-American" for American Black people.



idontknowyet said:


> Most people don't live in a bubble. (Maybe some Mormon or Amish etc groups) As authors we create story from a combination of imagination and experience. Are peoples ethnicities really any issue anymore? Maybe if the author is playing up stereotypes instead of as individuals.


I feel like I can't comment on this without it toeing the line.

So, I'm guessing you include a variety of different ethnic backgrounds in your work as main characters? In particular as the hero and/or heroine?


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

L_Loryn said:


> Yep. For example, I don't like using the world "African-American" for American Black people.
> 
> I feel like I can't comment on this without it toeing the line.
> 
> So, I'm guessing you include a variety of different ethnic backgrounds in your work as main characters? In particular as the hero and/or heroine?


I didn't really do a break down. I'm just starting to write, but yeah I'm just including people. I didn't really think oh I need to have an person with ____ color skin here. It should happen naturally.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

idontknowyet said:


> I didn't really do a break down. I'm just starting to write, but yeah I'm just including people. I didn't really think oh I need to have an person with ____ color skin here. It should happen naturally.


It should, exactly. No one's saying you have to put token POC in anything, I was just asking if you did or didn't.

I always think about who my characters are when I write, what they identify as, and no one just thinks of his or herself as a "person". There's identities -- with sexuality, with ethnicity, with anything. So I tend to know if my character identifies as a POC or not. I also know if they're gay, straight, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, etc. I know their religion, how they feel about organic food, if they like pets, what car they drive and why.

That's where the question comes from, I assume most people do a similar method of character development as I do. If not, that's cool.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

boba1823 said:


> There was a pretty good (and pretty long) thread about it quite a while back. Don't remember the name of the topic though.
> 
> It was around when I was just get started writing, and some of the issues that came up convincing me to *not* include any characters presented as POC - and generally to avoid any explicit mention of race as much as possible.
> 
> Main concerns, for me, were appealing to the broadest possible Romance audience and avoiding drawing potential ire from readers who might take offence at some aspect of how a POC was portrayed or not portrayed.


Unfortunately, I've recently seen authors report that books with black men on the cover have performed worse than books with white men on the cover. The sad truth is that books that are branded as having PoC as MCs don't usually do as well in romance.

I'm finally publishing my first non-white heroine. It was a huge PITA finding a photo with a female model who looked Asian. That's definitely an issue, somewhat mitigated by the choice to use solo dudes on a cover. But the availability of images with interracial couples is definitely an issue in putting out more diverse books.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Crystal_ said:


> Unfortunately, I've recently seen authors report that books with black men on the cover have performed worse than books with white men on the cover. The sad truth is that books that are branded as having PoC as MCs don't usually do as well in romance.
> 
> I'm finally publishing my first non-white heroine. It was a huge PITA finding a photo with a female model who looked Asian. That's definitely an issue, somewhat mitigated by the choice to use solo dudes on a cover. But the availability of images with interracial couples is definitely an issue in putting out more diverse books.


I always find the "melted pot" type of person for my covers. Dark hair, usually, dark eyes, usually, tanned. Works enough.


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## Angela Holder (Mar 19, 2014)

All the romances I've written so far include POC main characters.  I didn't plan it that way, it just sort of happened, due to the nature of the stories I want to tell.  

My science fiction romance features a millennia old, worldwide secret society, so of course its leaders are going to come from all over.  Of the books written so far:
1. He's black, she's white, both Americans
2. He's white, she's Hispanic (Californian, about 3-4 generations from Mexican immigrants), both American
3. M/M, they're both Iranian
Prequel. He's Russian Jewish, she's Japanese

Still n the planning stages:
4. She's African (Cameroonian), he's Spanish (from Spain)
5. He's Greek, she's Chinese (I think from Hong Kong, although that may change.  Maybe mixed race, not sure yet.)
6. She's Brazilian, he's Korean (and a paraplegic)
7. She's Indian, pretty sure it's going to be a F/M/F menage, not sure of the other two's race/nationality yet

My other series is contemporary, and stemmed from an idea that required my first FMC to be an undocumented immigrant from Mexico.  Her MMC is white.  The second is about her sister, who's an American citizen (born here) of undocumented parents.  Her MMC is Tejano/White.  I make a comment in the book that the Hispanic side of his family, who were Texans when Texas joined the US in 1845, have been American citizens longer than his Anglo side, who were German and Czech immigrants in the later half of the 1800's.  I've set up his three cousins to be MMC's of future books.  They're Hispanic on both sides.  Who knows who their FMC's will be.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Although I write mostly erotica it has a lot of romance built into it. I have several joint main characters, as couples, who include an Hispanic person and there is at least one who is multiracial. 

I can't write African American people well because honestly, I don't know the use of language well enough to make it look honest. With the US's long history of caricatures in entertainment that's the last thing I want to do, is come off like a white guy trying to write something that 'looks black'. Of course, not all African Americans use ebonics, but at the same time enough of them do, and if you are portraying an African American character you want it to appear genuine.

With the multiracial character, it was a bit easier, especially as I have met a few more of them, and had more to draw from in creating the character to make him appear genuine, as a real person.

One last thing, in erotica there can be a tendency with the nature of the stories to make the characters appear unidimensional. Some of it is just the nature of the form of entertainment. I go out of my way to avoid that, especially when dealing with POC's, because -- once again -- US history is full of such people being portrayed as caricatures. If I can't make the person a real person, I won't go there.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

I've read plenty of romances with POC characters that lacked any cultural flavor. So much so that I forgot they were supposed to be POC. They were basically coffee colored white people. It's probably so readers can project their ideal hero/heroine into the story without many identifiers that would zap them out of the moment. 

Personally, I enjoy reading about the cultural specific things that go with a POC.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

If you put this into a search box (not this site's), it should bring up several threads along the lines of your question:

people of color as characters kboards

I don't write romance, but my stories often have POC (which is the currently accepted term for people who are not Caucasian -- I'm a member of a group on FB that is mostly AA, and that's the term they use, so I know it's okay). I don't set out to do it, but my muse sends me what he sends me.

It may be harder to sell books with a non-white person on the cover, and it may not be a huge audience, but I see lots of readers who are eager to find books that are about people like them, both in skin color and experience. If you want to hit the biggest audience, at this point you may be better off not having a POC as the main character, but there is a reader out there for other books. It's just a matter of finding them. Give them characters they can relate to, not just differently-colored white people, try to target them in ads, and they will want to read your books.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> I can't write African American people well because honestly, I don't know the use of language well enough to make it look honest. With the US's long history of caricatures in entertainment that's the last thing I want to do, is come off like a white guy trying to write something that 'looks black'. Of course, not all African Americans use ebonics, but at the same time enough of them do, and if you are portraying an African American character you want it to appear genuine.


Interesting. I don't write my Black characters in using ebonics automatically. It depends on their background and who they're with which is because I don't use ebonics unless I'm around certain people (family, Black friends). If I'm in mixed company I stick to proper English. Most of my Black characters end up the same way.



C. Gold said:


> I've read plenty of romances with POC characters that lacked any cultural flavor. So much so that I forgot they were supposed to be POC. They were basically coffee colored white people. It's probably so readers can project their ideal hero/heroine into the story without many identifiers that would zap them out of the moment.
> 
> Personally, I enjoy reading about the cultural specific things that go with a POC.


I have came across this, too. There's a delicate balance between the POC being a caricature and being real, like Asians being intelligent nerds or Black people wearing stylish kicks, sagging their pants, and packing heat.

What I generally do is I start with the main MC and have him deal with some pesky cultural problems along with whatever he's doing otherwise. My last story in particular was about a Romani bisexual man raising a child. Instead of making him the "typical" Romani man, I used his mother, father, sister, ex-girlfriend to explore the facets of his culture without him having to sing and dance for the crowd.

Other times, say, if I'm writing a billionaire romance. My billionaire can be a rich Black man who's not famous from playing sports, but grandma (or great grandma) uses ebonics as a nod to the fact that it's there, but moving around in the world as a successful Black person, sometimes you really kind of present as a "coffee colored" white person.



she-la-ti-da said:


> I don't write romance, but my stories often have POC (which is the currently accepted term for people who are not Caucasian -- I'm a member of a group on FB that is mostly AA, and that's the term they use, so I know it's okay). I don't set out to do it, but my muse sends me what he sends me.
> 
> It may be harder to sell books with a non-white person on the cover, and it may not be a huge audience, but I see lots of readers who are eager to find books that are about people like them, both in skin color and experience. If you want to hit the biggest audience, at this point you may be better off not having a POC as the main character, but there is a reader out there for other books. It's just a matter of finding them. Give them characters they can relate to, not just differently-colored white people, try to target them in ads, and they will want to read your books.


Yeah, I'm not really concerned with hitting the biggest audience. I've done business for a long time (not writing in particular, but other forms of business) and I've found you can do two things: go for what you know sells and move on or do something unique and hope for the best. I tend to do the latter.

So, in some ways, I write for myself. I've seen the books featuring Black people and if they're written by Black people, they'll portray a lifestyle I'm not into. As in, black woman finds cheating POS boyfriend and wants to go beat up the ex-girlfriend. Everyone's flashy and there's a big messy fight, which isn't my life or how I was raised (ebonics or not). Or they're written by white people as the fetish or the story puts a major focus on the Black person being Black as the majority of the attraction.

Since I was a child, I've wanted to read gay romance featuring POC in a way white people get to read about each other in romance. As in, the POC gets more than being the Black guy from the other side of the tracks or the nerdy Asian or the Hispanic person with a bad temper who speaks half English-half Spanish all the time. I wanted to pick up a book that didn't make the POC the major selling point and go on to read it, just like white people don't go: "Aiden Blake Edwards was a *white *guy from the trailer park and Joey Aaron Smith was a rich, *white *billionaire".

Like I said before, I keep my covers pretty racially ambiguous and I don't even mention my character's race in the blurb. If someone gets upset halfway through the book because my second MC is Hispanic, well that's really personal. I don't target people looking for multicultural romance in my ad spends because, what do you know, I don't type in "mm BLACK romance" when I go searching for a book.

Yeah, that got long.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

For the few romances I've written, the POC is almost always the primary hero/ine. About half my romances feature black heroines.

They aren't _big_ sellers; I do believe my penname carries a stigma...


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

It is also hard to find good cover art. Sad, but true.


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

I don't ever think in terms of POC, and frankly referring to people as coloured or a person of colour is considered racist here in Australia. In my novels, my characters, and couples are typical of Australia's multi-cultural diversity. I don't consider the ratio of male to female skin colour variation is relevant in life or to relationships. Differences in personality and culture do have a relevance to how people connect, but those differences are not tied to the amount of melanin in the skin. 

Reading some of the other comments I see mention of cultural behaviour associated with skin colour. Maybe my experience is totally different to your experience. I don't see skin pigmentation and behaviour or culture as being necessarily connected. 

I would just write the story, and mention skin colour only when, and if, and at the time when it's relevant. The best books, in my opinion, focus on the character of people and what is happening to them, and not what they look like. Skin colour isn't an issue in a good story, unless it is a story about racism, rather than a story about life and love.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Ryn Shell said:


> I don't ever think in terms of POC, and frankly referring to people as coloured or a person of colour is considered racist here in Australia. In my novels, my characters, and couples are typical of Australia's multi-cultural diversity. I don't consider the ratio of male to female skin colour variation is relevant in life or to relationships. Differences in personality and culture do have a relevance to how people connect, but those differences are not tied to the amount of melanin in the skin.
> 
> Reading some of the other comments I see mention of cultural behaviour associated with skin colour. Maybe my experience is totally different to your experience. I don't see skin pigmentation and behaviour or culture as being necessarily connected.
> 
> I would just write the story, and mention skin colour only when, and if, and at the time when it's relevant. The best books, in my opinion, focus on the character of people and what is happening to them, and not what they look like. Skin colour isn't an issue in a good story, unless it is a story about racism, rather than a story about life and love.


So, uh, if you had an Aborigine character, that would not be relevant to her story or have affected her experience or her relationships? I have lived in Australia.

Person of color is simply the preferred term in the US for "not white European."

I write POC heroes and heroines fairly often. I do not usually use people, or identifiable-race people, on covers. I do not often write POC US characters though. I do have a mixture of supporting characters depending where the book is set. For books set outside the US, the ethnicity of the character does not matter for sales. I am guessing it would for US-set books.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I am guessing it would for US-set books.


To be honest, I don't know if it matters or not. I believe centering the book around a POC pops it into a genre (AA Lit, etc etc), but simply writing in a POC shouldn't affect sales.

Again, I don't target my work to people looking for POCs in books because that's not the way I search for books. I actually steer clear of books that mention ethnicities in the title like I should give them an award. So far I sell okay and no one's sent me angry emails about how I represent people in my books.


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## notenoughcoffee (May 5, 2018)

Nope. I'm ****** McWhiterson from Whitesville and would probably gack it all up.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

notenoughcoffee said:


> Nope. I'm ****** McWhiterson from Whitesville and would probably gack it all up.


At least you know, right?

In that same vein, I'm gay, gay, gay, gay and I don't write M/F romance because I'm afraid it'll feel flat and forced and terrible.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> To be honest, I don't know if it matters or not. I believe centering the book around a POC pops it into a genre (AA Lit, etc etc), but simply writing in a POC shouldn't affect sales.
> 
> Again, I don't target my work to people looking for POCs in books because that's not the way I search for books. I actually steer clear of books that mention ethnicities in the title like I should give them an award. So far I sell okay and no one's sent me angry emails about how I represent people in my books.


I have heard from other authors that they sell fewer of their books when for ex their football player hero is AA. In MF romance, writing a POC main character tends to put you in a niche. Mainstream white readers are just less likely to pick that book up. As I said though, not with my non-US-set books or a US-set book with a POC foreign hero, because the characters are already "exotic."


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I have heard from other authors that they sell fewer of their books when for ex their football player hero is AA. In MF romance, writing a POC main character tends to put you in a niche. Mainstream white readers are just less likely to pick that book up. As I said though, not with my non-US-set books or a US-set book with a POC foreign hero, because the characters are already "exotic."


Depending on how it's done, sure? Depending on the title and blurb I wouldn't either. Especially if it feels like the author specifically wanted to write about a BLACK football player, versus a football player that so happens to end up Black.

But I guess there could be returns if you don't say the main is POC from the start?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> Depending on how it's done, sure? Depending on the title and blurb I wouldn't either. Especially if it feels like the author specifically wanted to write about a BLACK football player, versus a football player that so happens to end up Black.
> 
> But I guess there could be returns if you don't say the main is POC from the start?


No, that's not what I mean. People who have a series where all the guys are on a team--very common. (I write sports romance among other things.) If they write one book where the guy happens to be AA, even if he's the quarterback, smart and sexy, that book tends to sell less.

In romance, people tend to want to read something where they can identify. (I suspect a majority of US romance readers are white but do not have statistics.) Unless as I say the book is "exotic" to begin with. Readers have no problem reading my Maori heroes and heroines, for example, or my Aborigine/white/Basque hero. If it's set in the US, though, and features a main character who's of a different ethnicity, there's just less interest. I did write an American Indian heroine set here, but she was mixed ethnicity. She worked fine, but she didn't have as much ethnic identity, as she wasn't raised in her tribe.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> No, that's not what I mean. People who have a series where all the guys are on a team--very common. (I write sports romance among other things.) If they write one book where the guy happens to be AA, even if he's the quarterback, smart and sexy, that book tends to sell less.
> 
> In romance, people tend to want to read something where they can identify. Unless as I say the book is "exotic" to begin with. Readers have no problem reading my Maori heroes and heroines, for example, or my Aborigine/white/Basque hero. If it's set in the US, though, and features a main character who's of a different ethnicity, there's just less interest. I did write an American Indian heroine set here, but she was mixed ethnicity. She worked fine, but she didn't have as much ethnic identity, as she wasn't raised in her tribe.


I guess I'm asking: How does one know the ethnicity of the character before they purchase the book? From the blurb or look inside, I suppose?

Though, I'm also curious to know if the authors with low selling POC mains write from first or third.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> (I suspect a majority of US romance readers are white but do not have statistics.)


https://www.rwa.org/page/romance-reader-statistics



> Demographics
> Gender: 82% are female; 18% are male.
> Age: average age is between 35 and 39 years; the highest percentage falls in the 25-34 age bracket.
> Ethnicity: 73% are White/Caucasian, 12% Black/African American, 7% Latino/Hispanic, and 4% Asian/Asian American.
> Sexual orientation: 86% of survey respondents identified as heterosexual or straight; 9% identified as bisexual, pansexual, or other bi+ identity; 2% identified as gay or lesbian.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> I guess I'm asking: How does one know the ethnicity of the character before they purchase the book? From the blurb or look inside, I suppose?
> 
> Though, I'm also curious to know if the authors with low selling POC mains write from first or third.


the majority of sports romance probably has male torso or face on the cover. I do not use men on the cover most of the time, and my guys are more like Dwayne Johnson in looks anyway, so it is not an issue for me. Otherwise, as others have said, if you cannot tell any difference between a brown hero and white hero from cover and blurb, you may be writing coffee colored white people. That is not diversity.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> https://www.rwa.org/page/romance-reader-statistics


Interesting. My audience is older. I have few readers under 35. I know from people who write to me that I have some nonwhite readers, and they appreciate my brown characters, but I could not say what percentage they are. I would guess maybe 15%.


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## Logophile (May 13, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> the majority of sports romance probably has male torso or face on the cover. I do not use men on the cover most of the time, and my guys are more like Dwayne Johnson in looks anyway, so it is not an issue for me. *Otherwise, as others have said, if you cannot tell any difference between a brown hero and white hero from cover and blurb, you may be writing coffee colored white people. That is not diversity.*


Not diverse according to whom? It's just as offensive to assume all Blacks speak the same way, think the same way, behave the same way, etc. There are lots of Blacks whose mannerisms, dialects, viewpoints, etc. do not coincide with the stereotypical descriptions given to Blacks in most literature. And for those Blacks, I don't think they would consider themselves as "coffee colored whites." They see themselves as people - who happen to be Black.

One person's "diversity" is another person's racism.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> the majority of sports romance probably has male torso or face on the cover. I do not use men on the cover most of the time, and my guys are more like Dwayne Johnson in looks anyway, so it is not an issue for me. Otherwise, as others have said, if you cannot tell any difference between a brown hero and white hero from cover and blurb, you may be writing coffee colored white people. That is not diversity.


Dwayne "The ROCK" Johnson is a POC. A beautiful one, at that.

I'm going to dig a hole, how would you be able to tell a brown person from the blurb?

I don't know of any brown people that first point out they're brown before anything else. Brown isn't a career choice, either.

When I write my blurbs, I give a little excerpt about my characters. I don't generally add that they're brown because, for the record, no one adds that characters are white in their blurbs.

If I were to point out that my character was brown in the blurb, how should I go about that?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Logophile said:


> Not diverse according to whom? It's just as offensive to assume all Blacks speak the same way, think the same way, behave the same way, etc. There are lots of Blacks whose mannerisms, dialects, viewpoints, etc. do not coincide with the stereotypical descriptions given to Blacks in most literature. And for those Blacks, I don't think they would consider themselves as "coffee colored whites." They see themselves as people - who happen to be Black.
> 
> One person's "diversity" is another person's racism.


Difficult to answer this without getting into thread lock territory, but as a writer of interracial/multicultural romance, people's culture tends to influence them, whether they're a white Southerner or a Maori from New Zealand. That is part of the appeal to me of writing a Maori character, and to my readers of reading it. It doesn't make the person less individual, any more than all European-origin white people are the same. It just means that, for example, any New Zealander is more likely to have a sibling living with them, especially if they've had some success, than a white American is, and to have dinner every week with their parents. If they're Maori, they're much more likely to do that. They're also more likely to know how to fish and to be able to back up a boat on a trailer. If I have a Maori hero who doesn't like boats, that can be sort of a wry, funny thing in the story.

People are partly their individual characteristics--their nature--and partly how they've grown up--their nurture. Culture, especially if it isn't mainstream culture, is likely to influence that nurture part. Foods you eat, strength of family ties, likelihood that an unmarried daughter will continue to live at home--so many things. And those things are pretty interesting to readers. There's a reason My Big Fat Greek Wedding was such a success.

My last book had a hero who was Basque, white American, and Australian Aborigine, from a family of merino sheep farmers in the Southern Alps. All those things influenced his character greatly, including an extremely protective nature due to prejudice against his grandmother and protecting her, passed down from his grandfather to his father to him. The heroine is Maori and white, and lived from her teen years with a white stepfather and stepfamily. Her Maori background is a huge influence, as it tends to be, and so is the experience of having been moved from a much more Maori area to a much whiter one where her looks and her interests and the fact that she grew up taking off her shoes as soon as she got out of the school building every day are "weird." She loves to sing (music is huge in Maori culture), and my hero's family all play instruments due to a number of things in their background, and music is a bond. Racism is an issue in the story due to an issue with my hero's young cousin. Et cetera. Romance is about people, and people are an interesting mixture of many things, including their family backgrounds.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> Dwayne "The ROCK" Johnson is a POC. A beautiful one, at that.
> 
> I'm going to dig a hole, how would you be able to tell a brown person from the blurb?
> 
> ...


I will mention that my character is Maori, because it's a selling point and is going to be important to the story. (Dwayne Johnson is half Samoan, I believe--that's why I mentioned him. He's pretty close to the ethnic background of many of my characters.)

Most romance writers, especially those who write with steam, will probably have the guy on the cover (or a couple on the cover), so you'd be likely to see his skin tone.

If there's no point to a character being from an ethnic background and they're divorced from the cultural/societal aspects of being from that background, I probably wouldn't write them being from that background. There wouldn't be much point. I write people from different backgrounds (southern, farm, big-city, ethnic, national, whatever) because that influences their world view and their relationships.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I will mention that my character is Maori, because it's a selling point and is going to be important to the story. (Dwayne Johnson is half Samoan, I believe--that's why I mentioned him. He's pretty close to the ethnic background of many of my characters.) If there's no point to a character being from an ethnic background and they're divorced from the cultural/societal aspects of being from that background, I probably wouldn't write them being from that background. There wouldn't be much point. I write people from different backgrounds (southern, farm, big-city, ethnic, national, whatever) because that influences their world view and their relationships.


He counts as a POC due to the diverse ethnic background. Most people read him as a tan white guy. Saying: you can't actually judge a book by it's cover.

Okay. So, I'm confused. I can't actually figure out what you're saying.

If someone were to write about a person. Say a big-time lawyer (for the sake of example), and he's Black. How should one denote that he's Black in the blurb? We'll say the cover doesn't have a human on the front.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> He counts as a POC due to the diverse ethnic background. Most people read him as a tan white guy. Saying: you can't actually judge a book by it's cover.
> 
> Okay. So, I'm confused. I can't actually figure out what you're saying.
> 
> If someone were to write about a person. Say a big-time lawyer (for the sake of example), and he's Black. How should one denote that he's Black in the blurb? We'll say the cover doesn't have a human on the front.


Like I said, I usually only write POC if they're not from the US. If they're Maori, I'll generally include "Maori" somewhere in the blurb, or they'll possibly just have a Maori name. I can't really say how I'd indicate ethnic background of a US character other than name. But here's a blurb from a book where both characters are ethnically mixed, and where their ethnic backgrounds will matter in the story. 
**

Even a hard man needs a soft side.

Marko Sendoa isn't a beach man. He's not an Auckland man. He's a hard man. Born Basque tough, raised in the heart of New Zealand's Southern Alps, and bred on hard work, discipline, and getting the job done. It's not easy for a rugby flanker who's played 13 bruising seasons to make it to age 32 at the top of his game, but he's done it. Next year is the Rugby World Cup, and he'll do whatever it takes to be on the field in the black jersey when the anthems are sung.

He doesn't need a kitten.
He doesn't need a pregnant cousin.
He definitely doesn't need a too-short, distractingly curvy, totally unimpressed Maori barista and part-time pet portraitist who fills his house and his life with too much color, too much chaos, and too many secrets.

He's getting them anyway.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> If there's no point to a character being from an ethnic background and they're divorced from the cultural/societal aspects of being from that background, I probably wouldn't write them being from that background. There wouldn't be much point. I write people from different backgrounds (southern, farm, big-city, ethnic, national, whatever) because that influences their world view and their relationships.


I'm not sure why there would be no point? I mean, is there ever a point to creating a character as white either or is that just the default if there's no special reason to make them anything else? And being divorced from your ethnic background can create a lot of character in itself. One of my MCs is like that because her mom died and she was raised by her stepdad/adoptive dad.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> I'm not sure why there would be no point? I mean, is there ever a point to creating a character as white either or is that just the default if there's no special reason to make them anything else? And being divorced from your ethnic background can create a lot of character in itself. One of my MCs is like that because her mom died and she was raised by her stepdad/adoptive dad.


Sure. That's why I said, "IF there's no point." I wrote a heroine who was half Lakota like that, and it's part of the story. She faces prejudice due to her American Indian background, but she doesn't have a cultural connection to it other than through her art. There's a point to her being half Lakota even though she doesn't have a connection. A point for the story.

I mean that I, as a white person, probably wouldn't write a POC character unless there was something about their ethnic background that mattered for the story. If they're a thoroughly assimilated X-American with no family traditions or frame of mind around their ethnic background, it might not occur to me to make them nonwhite.

I wrote one book however where I realized afterwards that only the heroine, her sister, and the sort-of-villain were white. Hero and every other character in the story was a POC, even if I didn't specify it--what they looked like in my mind, what I had in mind as I wrote them. That was interesting. It was kinda cool that it worked out that way.

Look, everybody can do what they want. They're thorny issues. If you write a POC heroine for ex, people can and will talk about a "white savior" trope if your hero is white and wealthier. There can be issues of cultural appropriation, especially if you don't get it right. Maybe you glorify the culture too much. All sorts of difficulties. That's why many people write their own ethnicity and that's it. It's your book, and you should do what you want. Just trying to answer the question.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I wrote one book however where I realized afterwards that only the heroine, her sister, and the sort-of-villain were white. Hero and every other character in the story was a POC, even if I didn't specify it--what they looked like in my mind, what I had in mind as I wrote them. That was interesting. It was kinda cool that it worked out that way.
> 
> Look, everybody can do what they want. They're thorny issues. If you write a POC heroine for ex, people can and will talk about a "white savior" trope if your hero is white and wealthier. There can be issues of cultural appropriation, especially if you don't get it right. Maybe you glorify the culture too much. All sorts of difficulties. That's why many people write their own ethnicity and that's it. It's your book, and you should do what you want. Just trying to answer the question.


It rarely occurs to me to make a character "white" unless it's important to the story, actually. I go through a lot of different types of characters and they usually come out as some form of POC. When I write in a white main character, I'm VERY aware of it. Distractingly aware to the point where I may not enjoy writing the story as much.

My POCs aren't always Black, either, but the world I write in is an imaginary city in the United States. I don't skimp on the issues surrounding POCs, but I don't flash it on the blurb, either. As far as covers, I don't try to make my covers represent the characters -- not because I'm hiding nonwhites from people, mostly because I let my artistic side cover-create and if I LOVE a certain picture and it's not the perfect representation of one of the mains? Eh, I don't worry about it that much.

I can see writing POCs as a big issue if you write from first person, too. As I don't, it's a little different for me. My readers don't get my characters thoughts. They get physical reactions and what they say. Only. A white person can never imagine what goes on in a POCs head, so yeah if you're doing the first person thing, I can see why there could be some issues. If you write from first person, I'd definitely tell you to write what you know if you're uncomfortable trying to think as a POC.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

Here's my two cents.

If you can comfortably write about a person of any ethnicity/culture without reverting to stereotypes, then go for it. If you've lived it/ experienced it it's more likely to seem authentic. If you can't and you don't appear to be that ethnicity you likely will be reviewed harshly for it.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I mean that I, as a white person, probably wouldn't write a POC character unless there was something about their ethnic background that mattered for the story. If they're a thoroughly assimilated X-American with no family traditions or frame of mind around their ethnic background, it might not occur to me to make them nonwhite.


I have no problem with that and I understand your reasoning, but "there wouldn't be a point" came off as more of a blanket statement. Just because for you there isn't a point doesn't meant that there isn't a point for anyone. If everyone only wrote non-white characters when they had a specific reason, there would be a lot less diversity especially in settings on other worlds, far into the future, etc., where the cultures we know today don't even exist.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

idontknowyet said:


> Here's my two cents.
> 
> If you can comfortably write about a person of any ethnicity/culture without reverting to stereotypes, then go for it. If you've lived it/ experienced it it's more likely to seem authentic. If you can't and you don't appear to be that ethnicity you likely will be reviewed harshly for it.


Can agree.

A lot of my gay-person readers feel that way about m/m romance. If you can't understand some of the things that go into being gay in the world, don't write it.

Also wanted to add on the vein of adding some sort of notation to the person's ethnicity in the blurb:

I would never write the words "Strong Black woman/man" as words to describe myself. It doesn't mean I'm not a strong Black person, born and raised. I just never think to write something like that. It sounds contrived and obnoxious to me. So my characters never describe themselves as "Strong hispanic/Romani/Iranian/Native/Chinese man, born and raised---" etc etc.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

We're all the same race: human. At least this is how I see it. I'm Hispanic and write mostly about white people. Honestly, with the exception of one family in my 1940's series (who were immigrants) I didn't really think about it. Characters come to me in personality more than anything. I agree to just write what feels comfortable to you and your story. My WIP features more mixtures of race because the Old West, despite what we see in the movies, was highly diverse. But most of the characters I read in other books are white. I seriously don't have troubles with it because people are people. We may look different on the outside and have the richness of various cultures in this world but inside we still love, still suffer, still seek answers, etc.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> I have no problem with that and I understand your reasoning, but "there wouldn't be a point" came off as more of a blanket statement. Just because for you there isn't a point doesn't meant that there isn't a point for anyone. If everyone only wrote non-white characters when they had a specific reason, there would be a lot less diversity especially in settings on other worlds, far into the future, etc., where the cultures we know today don't even exist.


Sigh. I already said I don't speak for anybody else. Just me. That's how I do it. It's my book. I try to write different characters because I find that interesting. And I have a default go-to, as L Loryn says in one of her (his?) many very thoughtful points, as a person who grew up white-bread--I tend to think as a white person. (Though I've written first person as a very wealthy Maori man. It was awesome, and I actually think I got it pretty right.) OTOH I've also written books with lots of POC, just like I've written books with gay characters, because the character came to me and was more fun (I like fun) as a POC or a gay person.

Everybody should do what they want. I'm not changing the world, just trying to do my best in my little piece of it. And now I'd better finish up my book. 134K in and still going. This one's pretty white, but then, Montana IS pretty white.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Sigh. I already said I don't speak for anybody else. Just me. That's how I do it. It's my book. I try to write different characters because I find that interesting. And I have a default go-to, as L Loryn says in one of her (his?) many very thoughtful points, as a person who grew up white-bread--I tend to think as a white person. OTOH I've also written books with lots of POC, just like I've written books with gay characters, because the character came to me and was more fun (I like fun) as a POC or a gay person.
> 
> Everybody should do what they want. I'm not changing the world, just trying to do my best in my little piece of it. And now I'd better finish up my book. 134K in and still going. This one's pretty white, but then, Montana IS pretty white.


I'm a gender non-specific person. So "they" or whichever you decide to use.

I'm a military brat, as they say. My parents lived away from our extended family, and I've been "adopted" by many people. Best friend growing up was Chinese. Her parents spoke Chinese primarily in the home and my parents were okay with her staying with us for long periods and me staying with her for long periods. Her parents treated me like their child.

In my adult life, I've moved a lot, too. And being a single person in a new city, I've made a lot of friends of different backgrounds, been at a lot of family gatherings, been "adopted" as part of the family.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Sigh. I already said I don't speak for anybody else. Just me. That's how I do it. It's my book. I try to write different characters because I find that interesting. And I have a default go-to, as L Loryn says in one of her (his?) many very thoughtful points, as a person who grew up white-bread--I tend to think as a white person. (Though I've written first person as a very wealthy Maori man. It was awesome, and I actually think I got it pretty right.) OTOH I've also written books with lots of POC, just like I've written books with gay characters, because the character came to me and was more fun (I like fun) as a POC or a gay person.
> 
> Everybody should do what they want. I'm not changing the world, just trying to do my best in my little piece of it. And now I'd better finish up my book. 134K in and still going. This one's pretty white, but then, Montana IS pretty white.


I wasn't arguing with you. I was just explaining that I originally took your statement as general advice to others, but I don't think that's how you meant it.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

I think it's important for writers to try to expose themselves (ourselves) to as much as possible in order to create fully realized characters.

I am a Black American and I grew up around all kinds of people, in a town of 70k people. I have/had White friends, Latino friends, Asian friends etc. I got to know them, met many of their families, talked to them about a variety of topics. It wasn't research, it was called being friendly and genuinely caring about the people in my social circle. As a result, I would feel comfortable writing characters of a variety of backgrounds.

Likewise, in my media consumption, I have exposed myself to books/movies/tv shows/etc where the characters and/or creators were of a different background to my own. As a Black person, most of the movies/tv shows I've ever watched had a majority of the cast who were a different race than I am. But even majority Black shows are popular with all kinds of people, think of Fresh Prince of Bel Aire, or Family Matters etc, it's not hard to portray characters who are different from you.

There is no such thing as "Oh, I don't want to write Black characters because I might get it wrong" Get what wrong exactly? If that's how you feel about it, then perhaps it's best to abstain. But for others who are more open minded and willing to expand their horizons then there are definitely opportunities to gain the confidence necessary to write any character you desire.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Matt.Banks said:


> I think it's important for writers to try to expose themselves (ourselves) to as much as possible in order to create fully realized characters.
> 
> I am a Black American and I grew up around all kinds of people, in a town of 70k people. I have/had White friends, Latino friends, Asian friends etc. I got to know them, met many of their families, talked to them about a variety of topics. It wasn't research, it was called being friendly and genuinely caring about the people in my social circle. As a result, I would feel comfortable writing characters of a variety of backgrounds.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

You hear that you got it wrong. Trust me.  Still better than never trying. None of us is perfect, as a writer or a person.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Matt.Banks said:


> I think it's important for writers to try to expose themselves (ourselves) to as much as possible in order to create fully realized characters.
> 
> I am a Black American and I grew up around all kinds of people, in a town of 70k people. I have/had White friends, Latino friends, Asian friends etc. I got to know them, met many of their families, talked to them about a variety of topics. It wasn't research, it was called being friendly and genuinely caring about the people in my social circle. As a result, I would feel comfortable writing characters of a variety of backgrounds.
> 
> ...


I so agree with this!


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

There is a very valid concern for any person that appears to be "white" that writes any other ethnicity. It doesn't take much for a reader to become offended and label a person a racist which can destroy an otherwise thriving career.  
Look at the conversation we just had. I bet there were times people were afraid to type something here incase it didn't come out right.

As writers we have to be mindful of our careers.  Our only obligation is to write a good story. The problem with that is that books change the world so what we write can do more than entertain.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Are there examples of someone's career being ended in such a fashion?


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

Matt.Banks said:


> Are there examples of someone's career being ended in such a fashion?


In writing I have no idea. I don't really follow writers I just read.

If you want to be more accurate then perceived threat (cause there is no way I'm looking to find out if there are actual examples) of being called a racist and it effecting a persons life/career.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

This may be illustrative.

http://www.vulture.com/2018/02/keira-drake-the-continent.html


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> This may be illustrative.
> 
> http://www.vulture.com/2018/02/keira-drake-the-continent.html


Interesting read.

I ultimately feel like people should write what they want to write and be able to defend it if it comes down to it. Know what you're doing when you do it and realize potential criticism.

In our "woke" world, it's turned into a place where white people are afraid to appear "racist" because "racist" is bad, but it's still okay to commit microaggressions thoughtlessly. And I think it does the writing world a disservice when we need trigger warnings and people have to over-think every character they put in a book just in case it may be "racist" (I don't think a troped POC is racist, I think it's thoughtless).

I appreciate the article recognizing that these SFF writers everyone looks up to wrote tropes and profited and there's traditionally been a very tense space for POCs in these works.

The writer's experience is unfortunate and I think the person who wrote the public post about how terrible the writer's work was should have sent a nice and private email instead. I don't like the way social media allows people to be jerks and, frankly, calling anyone a racist (even if they are) or saying their work is "racist garbage" in a public space where it can hurt someone's paper is a jerk move.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

There is a difference between having a book feature a non white person as the main character and writing a book about privilege and oppression.

Not every book with a non white person has to be about struggle and oppression. There can be cozy mysteries with a witch who is Black or Latina and there be no mention of racism or discrimination and that's OK! But if you are intentionally setting out to write allegory on racism and discrimination then yes, you'd better get it right!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Matt.Banks said:


> There is a difference between having a book feature a non white person as the main character and writing a book about privilege and oppression.
> 
> Not every book with a non white person has to be about struggle and oppression. There can be cozy mysteries with a witch who is Black or Latina and there be no mention of racism or discrimination and that's OK! But if you are intentionally setting out to write allegory on racism and discrimination then yes, you'd better get it right!


I do not write about struggle and oppression except in cases where racism would realistically be part of a character's experience. I still have to be incredibly careful as a white author writing experiences I have not lived. But then I am careful anyway, especially around issues of sexual politics, because as a romance writer, I think words and assumptions matter. Which does not mean everybody agrees with mine.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I do not write about struggle and oppression except in cases where racism would realistically be part of a character's experience. I still have to be incredibly careful as a white author writing experiences I have not lived. But then I am careful anyway, especially around issues of sexual politics, because as a romance writer, I think words and assumptions matter. Which does not mean everybody agrees with mine.


I think that's a very good approach to take. All we have are words to tell our story so it's a good idea to make sure we choose them carefully.

If anyone has questions about their manuscript that includes people of color, I'm always willing to procrastinate, er, provide feedback on your story


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

People of color are not necessarily any different than white people culturally. My husband is Indio-Carribean--his parents were born in Trinidad--and he's a regular dude from Long Island. He doesn't act brown or have a huge cultural heritage. If I was writing him as a romance hero, I'd barely mention his race, because it's not something he considers important.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

I'd say maybe a third of my characters are people of color. I just write them however I see them in my head. 

Also, for all the people saying it's not worth having people of color unless they diverge from white people somehow...

I eat McDonalds, I play video games, watch scifi and whine about my student loan debt.

I'm an American.

I was born and raised in America. That /is/ my culture.

Race mostly impacts my life when I'm forced to interact with a racist. The rest of the time I'm just as boring as everyone else.

Can you imagine if I made the same claim? That having white characters in your story is pandering to the majority unless they are eating cucumber sandwiches, watching hockey or playing golf? That's how silly it sounds when people claim you shouldn't put POC in your story without some ethnic quirk to entertain the masses.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't born black so that white people could have twerking.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

And this is why I only write POC main characters based outside the US, in cultures where their ethnicity and heritage DOES mean a whole lot to the lens through which they view their life. Too easy to get it wrong in the US. For secondary characters, I am just showing a person with a personality. I am not delving deeper and potentially offending. 

I was born in Oakland, CA, and spent decades of my life within a few miles of it. In Oakland this weekend, a white woman called the police at the park at Lake Merritt because a black family was barbecuing using the wrong kind of briquettes and was "causing a disturbance." Every black parent I know has conversations with their kids about what to do when the police stop you. That's something the staff of the local high schools are also very aware of. 

"Culture" is not necessarily the right word. Call it "lived experience." Call it a "lens." Our lived experiences tend to be different based on any number of things. If I wrote an AA hero, he'd probably (because I do write romance) be wealthy, like my wealthy Maori hero in NY who opens up more in the presence of his AA boxing coach than he does in the presence of wealthy white people (which is true of Maori, in general--they are more aware of and sympathetic to the struggles of indigenous people and POC in other countries, for fairly obvious reasons). My AA hero would presumably understand why some of his teammates might take a knee. Whatever. He's wealthy, yeah, but he's aware, as my AA OB/GYNs were, that when he's driving his Mercedes to play a game/deliver a baby/whatever, he's likely to be stopped by the cops. My OB in Las Vegas, a somewhat arrogant guy from a wealthy family in New Orleans, figured on it. He might dress better when he goes out than his teammate does, because he has to be more careful about the signals he sends. 

I don't necessarily understand all that well enough to write it in a MC. Yeah, maybe there are AA ballplayers in major US cities who do not get stopped for DWB because their car's too fancy, just like there are probably young Maori rugby players who don't get followed through the store by security when they're checking out the designer store in Paris. But it's sure as heck likelier than it would be for a white player. If you write IR/MC romance and don't ever address any of those things, I have to wonder what town that is, because it's not one I've lived in. 

So I don't go there. I don't want to not address it, and I don't trust myself to address it adequately. So I write my books with a diverse cast in terms of sexual orientation and race, and make sure I understand enough about my main characters' backgrounds, whatever they are, to write about them with an adequate amount of perception. (For ex, poor people get treated differently in the US--more differently than they are treated in NZ, where egalitarianism is a strongly held value. Some girls from wealthy families are going to be rude to waitresses in diners who are in their high school class.) 

I hope that doesn't make me a jerk, and since I care about that,  I'm careful.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> And this is why I only write POC main characters based outside the US, in cultures where their ethnicity and heritage DOES mean a whole lot to the lens through which they view their life. Too easy to get it wrong in the US. For secondary characters, I am just showing a person with a personality. I am not delving deeper and potentially offending.


Thanks, you know. For your answer on writing in POCs. We get it, you only write POCs outside the U.S.

You can (and should) stop deciding which POCs value their culture and heritage and which don't.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> Thanks, you know. For your answer on writing in POCs. We get it, you only write POCs outside the U.S.
> 
> You can (and should) stop deciding which POCs value their culture and heritage and which don't.


Geez. I give up. I suspect you have the answer to your question.

I did not say that. I said, "in cultures where their ethnicity and heritage DOES mean a whole lot to the lens through which they view their life." Because the two posters above had just said that IT DOESN'T, and they are offended by the very idea that it would. Which does not mean somebody else's heritage doesn't matter to them! It means that I write people who identify very strongly with their culture, because in that PARTICULAR, INDIVIDUAL culture that *I* HAPPEN to write about, people tend to think of themselves as "cultural thing" first, and "nationality" second. And even Europeans in that country tend to have absorbed elements of that cultural thing--it is an important part of the national character. I get that. I know to a decent extent what those elements are. So I can write it.

The poster above you just said there's no difference in her culture from any white person's, basically. Fine. We all have a background, based on different elements of our lives--our gender, our sexual orientation, our race, our nationality, our family's income level and THEIR families' historic income level, our region of the US, whether we grew up in a big city or on a farm ... on and on. It influences us all. Write what you trust yourself to know well enough, that's my advice. I write some rural characters because I know that, for example. People who don't have any farming in their family might not. Whatever.

I knew I should not answer in this thread. Go ask some other authors someplace else. Maybe they'll answer you honestly and attempt to explain their hesitations. I doubt it. Good luck, though.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Geez. I give up. I suspect you have the answer to your question.


Thank you, I do.

And you're stepping on toes when you blatantly decide that POCs outside the U.S. hold their culture to a higher standard somehow than POCs in the U.S.

I don't want to go down that road. So we can turn around and go the other direction if you want, but don't start deciding (as a white person) what POCs value.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> I eat McDonalds, I play video games, watch scifi and whine about my student loan debt.
> 
> I'm an American.
> 
> ...


[snip]

That ain't my quote.

Perfectly legitimate point of view, obviously--as anybody's point of view about their identity is legitimate. I mean, your identity is what you say/think/feel it is. Everybody gets to decide for themselves. But there aren't very many Maori who would feel that way. That's not right or wrong. It's just different. Even a European New Zealander is going to identify more strongly as a New Zealander than your average white American will identify as American. Sure, we might "know" we're American, but we don't have the same sense of national identity that a Kiwi tends to have simply by virtue of being from such a small and unique country. I write about that because it's interesting to me and interesting to readers. I write about a wheat farmer in north Idaho for the same reason. Farmers are interesting. It's too hard of a job to do unless you are born to it or otherwise resonate with it beyond logic. Both things interest me.

I'm not talking about "people outside the US" vs. "people in the US." I'm talking about one specific and very small group that does identify strongly with their culture, and whose cultural background influences their lives in certain ways that I happen to know more about than I know about most ethnic groups. Enough to write about it in what I sincerely hope is a respectful way and without getting hate mail from people from that country and culture who read my stuff. Period.

I'm not deciding what any particular POC in the US thinks or doesn't think about their culture, separate, homogenized, or whatever. Not my lived experience, and pretty darn complex. Which is why most people tend to either write their own background, or the majority (white) background, because historically marginalized people tend to have a much better understanding of the majority ethnicity than vice versa. Or just because the market's bigger and sales are better, in M/F romance.

If it were me, I'd be more p*ssed off by all the posters saying that ethnicity doesn't matter anymore and they just write "regular" people from the "melting pot." That's the stuff that took me aback more, but then, I tend to notice various differences in people and how they look at life. One of those tends to be family background, in whatever form it takes. (For ex, my mother's family was pretty rigidly and puritanically Protestant. That has an impact that resonates down the generations.) People are different in all sorts of interesting ways, and not just due to their born-with personalities.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> [snip]
> 
> That ain't my quote.
> 
> ...


My definition of culture revolves around the food you eat, the gods you pray to, the music you listen to, the language you speak. People born and raised in western cultures have a high degree of overlap in those categories regardless of race. It's not that I don't value "my" culture, it's that African-American culture is a subset of American culture. It was born and forged on American soil.

What you're describing in an earlier post isn't what I'd consider culture, neither African-American or American. I'd describe that as "the black experience" which has to do with navigating a society where you have a negatively regarded minority status and I did address that when I mentioned race mostly matters when having to deal with racists. All the examples you gave are about blacks having to deal with racism. But as I pointed out, when I'm not dealing with racism, my life is indistinguishable from other Americans.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Usedtoposthere said:


> If it were me, I'd be more p*ssed off by all the posters saying that ethnicity doesn't matter anymore and they just write "regular" people from the "melting pot." That's the stuff that took me aback more, but then, I tend to notice various differences in people and how they look at life. One of those tends to be family background, in whatever form it takes. (For ex, my mother's family was pretty rigidly and puritanically Protestant. That has an impact that resonates down the generations.) People are different in all sorts of interesting ways, and not just due to their born-with personalities.


Okay, fine. You got me. I'm not a regular person. I have super powers. I keep them hidden in my chitlings.

Also, if being Protestant or a farmer makes you a non-regular person. Who is a regular person?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Oh, and on a less thorny issue (because despite the prickles, I think it's an interesting subject and one I actually spend a fair amount of time thinking about)--to answer the question about cover and blurb--cover and blurb are marketing, and most people, I think, put on them/in them what will sell their book. If the ethnicity of the character is a selling point, they put it in there. The blurb doesn't "describe" the book. It sells the book. So, yeah, I'll say something about who my hero and/or heroine are ethnically, if it's a selling point. (I don't usually have identifiable-race people on covers.)

If I knew that in sports romance, having an AA hero's picture on the cover would likely result in fewer sales of that book, for whatever reason (and I think there are a number of kinda complex reasons for that), I'd think about what mattered most to me. Do I just want to sell books? Do I feel like I've written a three-dimensional character who's really interesting, and that reading about him might make my audience more open, in a teeny-weeny way, to reading more diverse characters, and does that matter to me? In which case, maybe I don't mention his ethnicity, so I possibly get more readership and make my small stand in the world. Or do I feel like maybe I'm capturing a niche market that I can possibly make my own? (In general, in IR M/F romance, it usually seems to be BWWM, not the other way around, because that's a pretty established niche market with a readership.) 

So--they're sales decisions, I think, usually, as to whether people mention it or not. The other thing is that romance is a HUGE genre. For example, in paranormal romance, AA heroes seem much more common. Part of the appeal of the "other," maybe, to white readers? (Take a look in IR/MC romance and see how many are about dragon shifters or something. I know it caught me unawares! Also--bear shifters who are American Indians!) In sports romance, even though in reality a whole LOT of major male sports teams are made up of nonwhites, it's usually white heroes (where I can tell the race of the hero from the cover). Because that's the readership, I guess. In small-town romance, especially, and mainstream romantic suspense, of which I've written some, it's pretty much Whitesville from what I've seen. (Also not that many LGBTQ characters.) I'm guessing fantasy and sci-fi romance are more diverse. 

All that refers to M/F romance, because that's the only one I know well. But from what I've seen, M/F and F/F romance also tend to be more diverse. So my subgenre/niche would probably influence my thinking about how obvious to make my nonwhite characters in cover/blurb.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> Okay, fine. You got me. I'm not a regular person. I have super powers. I keep them hidden in my chitlings.
> 
> Also, if being Protestant or a farmer makes you a non-regular person. Who is a regular person?


I was quoting earlier posts (not mine).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> My definition of culture revolves around the food you eat, the gods you pray to, the music you listen to, the language you speak. People born and raised in western cultures have a high degree of overlap in those categories regardless of race. It's not that I don't value "my" culture, it's that African-American culture is a subset of American culture. It was born and forged on American soil.
> 
> What you're describing in an earlier post isn't what I'd consider culture, neither African-American or American. I'd describe that as "the black experience" which has to do with navigating a society where you have a negatively regarded minority status and I did address that when I mentioned race mostly matters when having to deal with racists. All the examples you gave are about blacks having to deal with racism. But as I pointed out, when I'm not dealing with racism, my life is indistinguishable from other Americans.


I should have used the word "ethnicity" or "background" rather than "culture." Sorry. I tend to muddle those concepts up in my head. Obviously, somebody from a Caribbean background is likely to have a different "culture" than somebody whose family comes from Georgia.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

C. Gold said:


> I've read plenty of romances with POC characters that lacked any cultural flavor. So much so that I forgot they were supposed to be POC. They were basically coffee colored white people. It's probably so readers can project their ideal hero/heroine into the story without many identifiers that would zap them out of the moment.
> 
> Personally, I enjoy reading about the cultural specific things that go with a POC.


Being a POC doesn't always equate with culture. I live in Texas and most of my Hispanic friends were born and raised here. My best friend, Jesse, doesn't even speak Spanish. We work together. I'm white and when we get a customer that doesn't speak English I have to translate for him. I've never written a Hispanic character, but if I did based on my experience they'd probably be just like me.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> And this is why I only write POC main characters based outside the US, in cultures where their ethnicity and heritage DOES mean a whole lot to the lens through which they view their life. Too easy to get it wrong in the US. For secondary characters, I am just showing a person with a personality. I am not delving deeper and potentially offending.
> 
> I was born in Oakland, CA, and spent decades of my life within a few miles of it. In Oakland this weekend, a white woman called the police at the park at Lake Merritt because a black family was barbecuing using the wrong kind of briquettes and was "causing a disturbance." Every black parent I know has conversations with their kids about what to do when the police stop you. That's something the staff of the local high schools are also very aware of.
> 
> ...


Obviously, I appear to be in the... minority  but I think that's an acceptable perspective to take.

A general question for all: when writing White characters, how much does culture/heritage play a part in their identity?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> It is also hard to find good cover art. Sad, but true.


100% this^^
I recently moved away from using models on my covers for this very reason. I feel like a lot of what is out there for NA characters is tacky and borderline offensive (white dudes with bad wigs, asian models with wigs/feather in hair). I love the living heck outta Rick Mora and he has some of the best images out there, but until I can afford to hire him (or another model of his caliber) for a private shoot, I'm going to have to stick with a cover theme with more options.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

RBN said:


> Oh yes, by all means, let's allow racism to flourish uncontested so racists can profit.
> 
> In other words, maintain the status quo.
> 
> Anyone more worried about being called a racist for writing something racist than about the harm done to others by writing it, your slip is showing. People aren't "offended" by racism and other forms of prejudice -- they are HARMED by it, either while reading it or when someone else internalizes and acts on what was read. If you don't understand that, you're lacking a fundamental qualification to write in the POV of a character who doesn't look like you and deserve to be called out when you do a bad job, even more so than you should be for typos, sagging middles, and nonsensical plots, which at least have the virtue of not hurting anyone.


I had a longer post but I decided I didn't actually want to argue with you on this.

1. Don't cherry pick my words. I said something SHOULD be said, just not in an open public forum to the effect of someone touching a Black woman's fluffy afro and that Black woman turning around and screaming RACIST and walking off. I have many people touch my afro, all the time, but I don't scream RACIST in their face when I do it. I have a conversation explaining microaggressions and discrimination and they apologize.

2. If you want to throw a flag and scream RACIST at people, go for it. I don't care. My method of stopping racists from profiting is making sure I don't help them. By free advertising, by spending my coin on things that aren't for me (especially in the beauty industry). We all practice activism in our own ways.

Also. HEY, HI.

You didn't answer the question. How's the inclusion of POCs in your work?

Edited to add:

The reason I feel strongly about the OPEN PUBLIC FORUM is because I have an issue with social bullying. The way this woman was called out for being a racist opened her up for an extreme amount of bullying. Who knows how many people sent her more harmful words, threatened her, told her that she's "racist garbage and should off herself".

I think it's okay to call about people for discrimination. I don't think it's okay to do it at the risk of extreme social bullying. I would never want to inspire the mob-mentality the internet has on one particular person, racist or not.


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## Michaela Strong (Oct 5, 2016)

Matt.Banks said:


> A general question for all: when writing White characters, how much does culture/heritage play a part in their identity?


It certainly should, quite a bit. Everything about a person plays a part in who they are. Where they're from, what they look like, who their family is, what they do, what they eat etc. etc. etc. We (in the real world) are all a product of everything that came before us, and the same should be true for characters we write.

There's no universal white experience just like there's no universal black experience. There can be things more common to one group than another, but every individual person is a unique blend of their culture, heritage and personal experience so anything that happens is going to manifest differently.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

RBN said:


> Oh yes, by all means, let's allow racism to flourish uncontested so racists can profit.
> 
> In other words, maintain the status quo.
> 
> Anyone more worried about being called a racist for writing something racist than about the harm done to others by writing it, your slip is showing. People aren't "offended" by racism and other forms of prejudice -- they are HARMED by it, either while reading it or when someone else internalizes and acts on what was read. If you don't understand that, you're lacking a fundamental qualification to write in the POV of a character who doesn't look like you and deserve to be called out when you do a bad job, even more so than you should be for typos, sagging middles, and nonsensical plots, which at least have the virtue of not hurting anyone.


That sentiment there is a reason "white" writers avoid the topic completely. Because they are racist? No, but because a badly written or ill thought turn of phrase will get them stoned. Being the target of a witch hunt is not fun. Nor is being oppressed or deemed not human or any other host of horrible things that have happen and are still happening.

I will give you an example. I have a friend of the family. He was raised in an extremely bigoted family. I don't know if I could emphasis that enough. An extremely bigoted family. If you were to listen to him talk you would think he was a bigot like they are. It surprised me when I realized he wasn't. He's the first person to help regardless of a persons ethnicity or skin color. He didn't see the color he just saw a person. His speech patterns though were affected by his environment and without thinking he would say things he didn't even realize were racist. We have all been raised in one way other the other with stereotypes and prejudices. Finding fault with others doesn't help the situation. Trying to understand who they are and why they are way they are does.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I've always found it interesting that people who are the targets of racism are the ones who are supposed to be understanding, considerate and polite. They have to swallow their hurt and anger. They have to take time out of their day to teach basic human courtesy.
> They are insulted, disrespected or attacked in public, but _they_ are the jerks if they respond to that insult, disrespect or attack in public. If half as much pressure was put on racists to change their behavior and open their minds as is put on POC to coddle, educate and understand racists then we not still have the issues with racism that we do today. I can't speak for all POC but personally, I think a writer that doesn't address how exhausted many POC are with these double standards, shouldn't write from their perspective.


Everyone should be understanding, considerate, and polite.

If someone punches you in the face, you still have to be understanding, considerate, and polite.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I've always found it interesting that people who are the targets of racism are the ones who are supposed to be understanding, considerate and polite. They have to swallow their hurt and anger. They have to take time out of their day to teach basic human courtesy.
> They are insulted, disrespected or attacked in public, but _they_ are the jerks if they respond to that insult, disrespect or attack in public. If half as much pressure was put on racists to change their behavior and open their minds as is put on POC to coddle, educate and understand racists then we not still have the issues with racism that we do today. I can't speak for all POC but personally, I think a writer that doesn't address how exhausted many POC are with these double standards, shouldn't write from their perspective.


I expect all humans to treat others with respect, politeness, and kindness. I know that's wishful thinking right.

Anger and hate only seem to generate more.

Romance writers are not writing books to insult, attack or disrespect people. They are writing to entertain an make people happy. We are writing so that all poeple want to enjoy our book regardless of the color of their skin or ethnicity.

We are also human an imperfect, that doesnt make us horrible people. It is always easier to pick out a persons flaws and ignore the good.

This forum is about helping people not tearing them down. Majority of the posters here work to help an encourage others.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I'm sure you realized that wasn't the point of my comment but just in case:
> POC are expected to be understanding, considerate and polite. Racists aren't. It'd be nice if everyone was held to that standard, not just POC. And if someone punches me in the face I'm being "understanding, considerate and polite" with the cops on speed dial while being ready to defend myself in whatever way is necessary. Because violence should be firmly and unequivocally addressed. Just like racism.
> You don't address bullying by telling the bullied to be "nicer". You don't tell battered spouses to be more "considerate". You don't tell women to be more "understanding" about street harassment and unequal pay. But yet all those things are told to victims of racism.
> 
> But anyway, this conversation is going the way all conversations about racism eventually go, which is nowhere productive. But thanks for asking the question though.


This thread wasn't started about racists or racism.

I wanted to know how many people write POCs in their books, not about how we should all tackle racism.

Again. EVERYONE is expected to be understanding. I'm not the holder of the racist backstage pass to be a jerk. But I don't think others should be a jerk because they are.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I'm sure you realized that wasn't the point of my comment but just in case:
> POC are expected to be understanding, considerate and polite. Racists aren't. It'd be nice if everyone was held to that standard, not just POC. And if someone punches me in the face I'm being "understanding, considerate and polite" with the cops on speed dial while being ready to defend myself in whatever way is necessary. Because violence should be firmly and unequivocally addressed. Just like racism.
> You don't address bullying by telling the bullied to be "nicer". You don't tell battered spouses to be more "considerate". You don't tell women to be more "understanding" about street harassment and unequal pay. But yet all those things are told to victims of racism.
> 
> But anyway, this conversation is going the way all conversations about racism eventually go, which is nowhere productive. But thanks for asking the question though.


Actually I have done exactly that. I have told bullies what they are doing is wrong. Why it is wrong? How it is affecting the person that they have wronged?

Many times you will find a bully is ignorant or being hurt in another aspect of their life that is why they are lashing out at others.

Hate is taught. The only way to combat it is through education, kindness, and respect.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

idontknowyet said:


> .
> 
> Hate is taught. The only way to combat it is through education, kindness, and respect.


Well said.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Matt.Banks said:


> A general question for all: when writing White characters, how much does culture/heritage play a part in their identity?


That's a tough question, Matt. For me, I think the answer is that it plays a huge part for most of my white characters, but that it's hard to make the part it plays visible to readers who aren't already primed to notice it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> People of color are not necessarily any different than white people culturally. My husband is Indio-Carribean--his parents were born in Trinidad--and he's a regular dude from Long Island. He doesn't act brown or have a huge cultural heritage. If I was writing him as a romance hero, I'd barely mention his race, because it's not something he considers important.


This.



kcmorgan said:


> I'd say maybe a third of my characters are people of color. I just write them however I see them in my head.
> 
> Also, for all the people saying it's not worth having people of color unless they diverge from white people somehow...
> 
> ...


And this.

Not sure if it's because I grew up in the 90s but 'person of color' is kind of...idk...slightly offensive given I don't normally think about my skin color. I'm sure it's not meant to be that way though. I'm American. Period. Although my skin is brown, my hair is curly, and I grew up in a Spanish speaking immigrant home I consider myself fully a human, an American, and don't really see color unless--like KC Morgan said, I am forced to interact with someone who is racist. And oh, believe me it does happen. So saying 'person of color' is kind of like saying "you're different because your skin is brown" but that's just my interpretation.

Crystal also mentioned her husband's heritage and that he considers himself a guy from Long Island. Suppose I'm just throwing out another alternative. I think it's much more respectful to call people, well, people. It's much harder to do in a book though where you have to give a description of characters, unlike in a movie where actors are cast and there's no need for description.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

BlossomBubblesButtercup said:


> I've always found it interesting that people who are the targets of racism are the ones who are supposed to be understanding, considerate and polite. They have to swallow their hurt and anger. They have to take time out of their day to teach basic human courtesy.
> They are insulted, disrespected or attacked in public, but _they_ are the jerks if they respond to that insult, disrespect or attack in public. If half as much pressure was put on racists to change their behavior and open their minds as is put on POC to coddle, educate and understand racists then we not still have the issues with racism that we do today. I can't speak for all POC but personally, I think a writer that doesn't address how exhausted many POC are with these double standards, shouldn't write from their perspective.


I have relatively few examples (that I can think of) in my life where I witnessed actual racism towards myself and others. Just recently I had an issue with a customer at my last job back in April. But I no longer work there so let me say this: it's not like anything can actually be said when it happens. Typically it's someone who has power and authority over you. In this case, it was a customer, and it lasted just long enough for me to realize what was actually happening. But I didn't have the chance to call her out on it, especially with a co-worker next to me who was entirely oblivious and trying to appease this customer. Racism is an underhanded thing. It's sly, it's harmful, and it goes undetected while it's happening most of the time. At least this has been my experience. Oh, and MOST people are not racist. It's the rare few.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Rosie A. said:


> I have relatively few examples (that I can think of) in my life where I witnessed actual racism towards myself and others. Just recently I had an issue with a customer at my last job back in April. But I no longer work there so let me say this: it's not like anything can actually be said when it happens. Typically it's someone who has power and authority over you. In this case, it was a customer, and it lasted just long enough for me to realize what was actually happening. But I didn't have the chance to call her out on it, especially with a co-worker next to me who was entirely oblivious and trying to appease this customer. Racism is an underhanded thing. It's sly, it's harmful, and it goes undetected while it's happening most of the time. At least this has been my experience. Oh, and MOST people are not racist. It's the rare few.


Perhaps one of the challenges we all face as writers is that individual people have such different experiences of and attitudes toward the world, and thus see the world as a fundamentally different place. Some people I know IRL see racism and bigotry as pervasive and as informing every engagement they have with the larger culture, but I also know people who feel bigotry has become blessed rare, more of an occasional gross splash than an ocean they have to swim through, day and night. Our readers are likely to have a similarly wide range of views.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

I've experienced a variety of microaggressions throughout the years:

It's really customary for older "white" people to place a POCs change on the counter rather than giving it back to them in their hands. It's a microaggression. You really can't say much about it when it happens. My partner (who's white) used to put change on the counter and slide it over to people. She learned this from people in her family. I told her to stop doing that and why and now she's adamant about handing people change.

I used to work in a space with people who were adamant that racism didn't exist anymore, that it was over. We'd enter into conversations about the goings-on in the world. I once had one of the people tell me she'd experienced racism because she got in a fight with a Black girl as a child and the Black girl wasn't punished while she was. I had to explain to her that while that was a terrible experience, it's not actually racism.

I used to work at a crafts store and I would routinely have customers complain about me to my managers because I didn't smile and and "yessah" them right out the door. My manager told me I would just have to "deal with it" and I told him it was unfair of him to expect me to suffer through microaggressions because the "customer is always right".

I've been standing in line before (many times actually) where I've been ignored by the worker as the next in line and had them help the "white" person behind me. When this happens, I decide whether I want to call it out or let it go. Often, I call it out and say "I was next, actually, but I'm in no rush, you can serve that person first." 

Oh, I got stopped once because I didn't have a front tag on my car and then the police officer proceeded to check my car all over for the drugs I wasn't carrying. I got no ticket because my car was within regulation. I was simply stopped because I was a POC driving at night.

There are more... and it takes a special type of person to recognize and respond to racism when it's happening. Most can't, won't, don't know it's happening, clam up and get nervous or anxious.


As far as the term POC. It's the accepted term to refer to people not of European-descent. If you prefer to think of yourself just as a person from a place, that's cool. I don't sit around and think about my skin color either--- until I walk outside and have to deal with people in the world who say they're colorblind, but cross the street and drop your change on the counter.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Rosie A. said:


> Crystal also mentioned her husband's heritage and that he considers himself a guy from Long Island. Suppose I'm just throwing out another alternative. I think it's much more respectful to call people, well, people. It's much harder to do in a book though where you have to give a description of characters, unlike in a movie where actors are cast and there's no need for description.


I think he's actually kinda embarrassed by Long Island. He's from an especially uninteresting part of it. It's definitely not a part of his identity. (He' snot moved by my Billy Joel jokes). But he certainly doesn't think of himself as Trinidadian. If you asked him to describe himself, he'd mention a dozen things about his identity before he mentioned his race if he mentioned it at all. I think he considers himself a nerd, first and foremost.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

So some responses might have come across, well, a little confrontational, but I personally want to make it known that I encourage writers of all backgrounds, whether racial, ethnic, national etc, to use all resources available to enhance their writing.

If you were interested in writing a protagonist who was a different race than you, don't shy away from it because of fear! There are opportunities during the alpha/beta reading process to include readers of a variety of backgrounds to get feedback.

Or if you'd still rather not, that's OK too.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> This thread wasn't started about racists or racism.
> 
> I wanted to know how many people write POCs in their books, not about how we should all tackle racism.
> 
> Again. EVERYONE is expected to be understanding. I'm not the holder of the racist backstage pass to be a jerk. But I don't think others should be a jerk because they are.


The answer to the question, though, has so much to do with racism, or whatever name people want to give it--Why are romance readers in my genre less likely to read a US-based book starring POC? (As opposed to a book they've already picked up because they are attracted to reading about a different culture--that they've self-selected for). Why are writers hesitant to write a POC main character for fear they will unwittingly offend, even when they're trying hard not to? If you make a character very assimilated into mainstream society, as some posters have said, maybe people think s/he's a token. If you make them immersed in their background (for lack of a better term), maybe you're stereotyping. It's tricky to get right, so a lot of writers just don't go there. (Especially since, as above, you may be limiting your market appeal. Sad but true. I honestly think that's the big one.)

I don't think you can answer the question without addressing these issues--since you asked "why or why not" people wrote POC main characters, I believe. That would be the "why not" part. For example, I know an Asian writer who says she won't write Asian characters because people expect them to all be eating their "cultural" food (particular culture; I don't want to identify her in this post) or doing "cultural" things. Or they don't understand when the person's background DOES mean she responds to something differently. So she writes white people.


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## Logophile (May 13, 2018)

In today's world, it seems everyone is looking for an occasion to be offended. Some things are genuine racism; others are just differences of opinion. Some folks can't tell the difference.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Logophile said:


> In today's world, it seems everyone is looking for an occasion to be offended. Some things are genuine racism; others are just differences of opinion. Some folks can't tell the difference.


Let's please keep the focus on writing and publishing; these politically resonant topics need to maintain that connection.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> The answer to the question, though, has so much to do with racism, or whatever name people want to give it--Why are romance readers in my genre less likely to read a US-based book starring POC? (As opposed to a book they've already picked up because they are attracted to reading about a different culture--that they've self-selected for). Why are writers hesitant to write a POC main character for fear they will unwittingly offend, even when they're trying hard not to? If you make a character very assimilated into mainstream society, as some posters have said, maybe people think s/he's a token. If you make them immersed in their background (for lack of a better term), maybe you're stereotyping. It's tricky to get right, so a lot of writers just don't go there. (Especially since, as above, you may be limiting your market appeal. Sad but true. I honestly think that's the big one.)
> 
> I don't think you can answer the question without addressing these issues--since you asked "why or why not" people wrote POC main characters, I believe. That would be the "why not" part. For example, I know an Asian writer who says she won't write Asian characters because people expect them to all be eating their "cultural" food (particular culture; I don't want to identify her in this post) or doing "cultural" things. Or they don't understand when the person's background DOES mean she responds to something differently. So she writes white people.


Is part of it that some writers feel the nonwhite character has to be the "perfect" representation of that race? Yes, I know Black people who grew up in poverty but I also know Black people whose parents were doctors/lawyers/etc who went to private school and went on expensive vacations every year. I know Mexicans who pretty much only speak Spanish at home/with their family, they eat primarily Mexican food and are still strongly connected to the culture, I also know Mexicans who don't know any Spanish and don't have any connection to Mexico other than their grandparents or great grandparents were from there.

Maybe it's because I'm (relatively) younger but among people my age I don't really see cultural heritage having as big on an influence in the US, everything (and everyone) seems to just get all mixed up. I have a friend who is the child of Indian immigrants, they are Hindu, yet he said every year they put up a Christmas tree and give gifts even though they aren't Christian.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Is there the same conversation around men writing women characters or women writing men characters? I don't think I've ever seen someone say "I don't want to get it wrong so I'm only going to write women characters, since I'm not a man". Sure, I've seen some people criticize women characters written by men, but I've seen plenty of criticism of women characters written by women. Poorly written characters get criticized. What's the difference?


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Matt.Banks said:


> Is there the same conversation around men writing women characters or women writing men characters? I don't think I've ever seen someone say "I don't want to get it wrong so I'm only going to write women characters, since I'm not a man". Sure, I've seen some people criticize women characters written by men, but I've seen plenty of criticism of women characters written by women. Poorly written characters get criticized. What's the difference?


There was recently an online workshop about how to write from the male's POV without making him sound feminine.

Maybe someone should do the same for POCs?


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I think the takeaway is that POC are people before they're a certain race. Some people consider their race a big part of their identity and some don't. If you're going to write POC as your MCs, you need to think about them as individuals, the same way you would with white MCs. Otherwise, your characters will seem token.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> How many of you romance writers include "people of color" (black, asian, african, hispanic etc) as heroes or heroines in your stories?
> 
> If you do, how many books out of your current collection feature POCs?
> 
> ...


I have diverse characters, but they are who they are. I don't write them just to have diversity, and their culture is usually different because I write fantasy/paranormal romance or it isn't an important part of their lives. I don't describe skin tones, so it's possible people assume the characters are white. Some of them are main characters. I'm not sure what the words top and bottom mean in this context, unless you're asking about a specific type of romance, but sometimes it's the hero, sometimes the heroine, and sometimes it's both. I only write characters that I find physically attractive, so that narrows down my options, especially when it comes to the hero.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L_Loryn said:


> This thread wasn't started about racists or racism.
> 
> I wanted to know how many people write POCs in their books, not about how we should all tackle racism.
> 
> Again. EVERYONE is expected to be understanding. I'm not the holder of the racist backstage pass to be a jerk. But I don't think others should be a jerk because they are.


Oh, come now, you stated in your original post it could be a heated debate. You had to have some idea it'd go there.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Matt.Banks said:


> Is part of it that some writers feel the nonwhite character has to be the "perfect" representation of that race?


I think so. It seems like they take this kind of criticism a lot more personally than other types of criticsm. I think they feel like they're being called a racist and so tune out what's actually being said.

The few cases I can think of where there was a shitstorm about it were examples of extreme cluelessness and were in the young adult genre, where obviously there would be more concern since the target audience is young and impressionable.


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## Marchie (May 10, 2018)

Well, as shown by this very thread, it can certainly be a minefield. 

In our current social climate, writers are even less likely to explore writing different groups for fear of giving offense. It's a real shame, too. I could almost swear there was more diversity in books five to ten years ago than there is today.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

PinkHare said:


> Well, as shown by this very thread, it can certainly be a minefield.
> 
> In our current social climate, writers are even less likely to explore writing different groups for fear of giving offense. It's a real shame, too. I could almost swear there was more diversity in books five to ten years ago than there is today.


I don't think people were as quick to boycott and 1 star an author over disagreeing with something they wrote back then. It's kind of a catch 22 I guess. People are calling for more diversity in books, but they'll 1 star you if they don't like the way you handled it, so authors are less likely to give them diversity in their books.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

katrina46 said:


> Oh, come now, you stated in your original post it could be a heated debate. You had to have some idea it'd go there.


It had the potential (as it always does when you bring up POCs), but I didn't really want it to.


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## C. Gold (Jun 12, 2017)

I think it's all too easy to let fear of being labeled a racist paralyze you into doing nothing. I experienced that in college when a friend and I swapped names on sharing a dorm room together. Only she backed out at the last minute and I was left with two random people. They wound up being black and smokers since I didn't check the no smoking on the form because of course I'd be with my friend (thanks for that, friend!) I can't stand cigarette smoke but I just knew the instant I tried to move rooms they'd think I was a racist. In the end, I switched because I had to. 

So far, I've written a few POCs, but since I write fantasy and scifi, I don't have skin pigment racism (which is really dumb if you think about it). There are so many other ways to cause friction that seem more reasonable to me. With so much racial tension in the world today, I like thinking that eventually it will become extinct. Since I make up cultures and prejudices, I can't get it wrong unless I'm copying stereotypes which I try to avoid. I just make sure I don't have any white savior thing going on and there are good and bad people of all color types.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

L_Loryn said:


> It had the potential (as it always does when you bring up POCs), but I didn't really want it to.


Did you lurk here for a while or are you new to kboards? I ask because this isn't the first thread about this topic and they almost always end by getting locked. It's always going to be a heated topic.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

katrina46 said:


> Did you lurk here for a while or are you new to kboards? I ask because this isn't the first thread about this topic and they almost always end by getting locked. It's always going to be a heated topic.


I have lurked for awhile and I've never seen a question asking about who includes POC and who doesn't in romance.

I specifically wanted to know about ROMANCE authors adding POCs and their experiences doing it and why they do or don't. I wasn't asking for advice on whether I should and reasons why I should or shouldn't.

I add POCs to my romance books. I'd say 75% of my main characters are POC. I'm not going to change what I do based on the answers here, I just wanted to know the percentages of other people.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

It might be more instructive to look at the top 100 in your subgenre, whatever that is, and see what percentage appear to have POC main characters and how they show that they do. 

The problem with asking here is that you are asking such a cross-section of people who sell at all different levels. The answer doesn't seem likely to be super helpful as far as "What works." But perhaps you are asking for another reason.

If you don't write M/F romance, the answer is probably also not that helpful, as that's a really different market from what I know from M/M and F/F romance. Heck, even the various subgenres of M/F romance will probably deliver very different answers on this one. It's too big a genre to generalize about any "what readers want" question. It's not, say, "cozy mystery," that can have more of a tone and more rules. If somebody's writing dark romance and somebody else is writing sweet small-town romance . . . the readership for those things is just poles apart.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> It might be more instructive to look at the top 100 in your subgenre, whatever that is, and see what percentage appear to have POC main characters and how they show that they do.
> 
> The problem with asking here is that you are asking such a cross-section of people who sell at all different levels. The answer doesn't seem likely to be super helpful as far as "What works." But perhaps you are asking for another reason.
> 
> If you don't write M/F romance, the answer is probably also not that helpful, as that's a really different market from what I know from M/M and F/F romance. Heck, even the various subgenres of M/F romance will probably deliver very different answers on this one. It's too big a genre to generalize about any "what readers want" question. It's not, say, "cozy mystery," that can have more of a tone and more rules. If somebody's writing dark romance and somebody else is writing sweet small-town romance . . . the readership for those things is just poles apart.


It could be more instructive to look at the top 100 in my subgenre, except not everyone highlights the potential of a POC main character in the blurb or on the cover so there's no way of knowing without actually reading the book and seeing how the character is described.

I'm not looking for "what works", no.

I'm not asking what readers want, either. I'm asking what authors do.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

Well, it seems like most of the writers here are white and write majority white protagonists. I haven't seen anyone say they are white and write romance with hero and heroine as nonwhite (although I could have missed it).

I believe Usedtoposthere has several interracial romance novels, so she is providing valuable insight as someone who is doing what you're asking about. And quite a few people have offered reasonable explanations as to why white writers avoid writing nonwhite protagonists. For romance especially, if the goal is to create "feel good" books, it's easy to just try to avoid controversy, writers may feel introducing racial dynamics could distract from the HEA story they want to tell.

If the ultimate goal is to get more people writing nonwhite characters, taking a more understanding and encouraging tone might be more helpful. Some responses have appeared to be somewhat antagonistic.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Matt.Banks said:


> Well, it seems like most of the writers here are white and write majority white protagonists. I haven't seen anyone say they are white and write romance with hero and heroine as nonwhite (although I could have missed it).
> 
> I believe Usedtoposthere has several interracial romance novels, so she is providing valuable insight as someone who is doing what you're asking about. And quite a few people have offered reasonable explanations as to why white writers avoid writing nonwhite protagonists. For romance especially, if the goal is to create "feel good" books, it's easy to just try to avoid controversy, writers may feel introducing racial dynamics could distract from the HEA story they want to tell.
> 
> If the ultimate goal is to get more people writing nonwhite characters, taking a more understanding and encouraging tone might be more helpful. Some responses have appeared to be somewhat antagonistic.


I write books where both characters are POC. Not all my books, but some.

And I agree. Thanks for your thoughtful contributions by the way. They have been encouraging.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Matt.Banks said:


> Well, it seems like most of the writers here are white and write majority white protagonists. I haven't seen anyone say they are white and write romance with hero and heroine as nonwhite (although I could have missed it).
> 
> I believe Usedtoposthere has several interracial romance novels, so she is providing valuable insight as someone who is doing what you're asking about. And quite a few people have offered reasonable explanations as to why white writers avoid writing nonwhite protagonists. For romance especially, if the goal is to create "feel good" books, it's easy to just try to avoid controversy, writers may feel introducing racial dynamics could distract from the HEA story they want to tell.
> 
> If the ultimate goal is to get more people writing nonwhite characters, taking a more understanding and encouraging tone might be more helpful. Some responses have appeared to be somewhat antagonistic.


Yeah totally, I'm not saying the answers haven't been there. I'm saying my reason for asking wasn't to decide what I, personally, am going to do. It was merely asking do you, why or why not.

My goal isn't to get more people writing nonwhite characters if they don't want to write nonwhite characters. I don't want to change the way anyone decides to write, I wanted to know offhand who does and doesn't and why. When I look at blurbs, I don't know what characters are brown unless I do a search for "BWWM" or whatever and I was wondering how many people included POCs without thinking of them as a, per se, tailored genre? I don't know how to say it, but I feel like someone who tags the book "BWWM" purposely set out to write that novel versus writing a story that happens to include a POC.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

oakwood said:


> Too many!  There is no reason to specify what color race age abilities whatever someone has unless it is relevant to the story and plot, and including it, unless it has relevance is simply distracting from the story.
> 
> Too many authors label their protagonists one way or the other without considering the fact that the reader will immediately focus on it (because it is seldom relevant).. authors should stop and think, why am I making my heroe (or villain) chinese, or 90-years old, or a ceo of a bank.
> 
> ...


So you're saying you never say things like "pale, tan, mahogany" as a descriptor when you're describing a character? Or describe what their hair/eyes look like?

When I am establishing a connection between two characters, I do a fair amount of describing how the other person looks because, well, physical attraction is a thing and saying someone's "hot" or just sticking to "lanky limbs, corded thighs" seems unfinished for me. Hair color, eye color, all those things pop up and all those things add to a description of a type of person even if you never directly say what the skin color is.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

oakwood said:


> Too many!  There is no reason to specify what color race age abilities whatever someone has unless it is relevant to the story and plot, and including it, unless it has relevance is simply distracting from the story.
> 
> Too many authors label their protagonists one way or the other without considering the fact that the reader will immediately focus on it (because it is seldom relevant).. authors should stop and think, why am I making my heroe (or villain) chinese, or 90-years old, or a ceo of a bank.
> 
> ...


Not suggesting you should change the way you do things, but just letting you know that characters aren't a blank slate. Characters are straight, white men until stated differently. It's because of the way human minds work. We don't just leave gaps in information, we fill in missing information with what's most likely to be right. Not what we want to imagine, but what we believe is most likely. And the vast majority of characters in western literature are straight, white men. So with no other info to go on, that's what we'll picture.

And to answer your question of why, I give my characters backgrounds because it influences how they view the world and how they behave. An orphan from Compton isn't going to have the same worldview as a girl from Orange County with a stay-at-home mom and six siblings.

Writing blank characters can be advantageous. Half the women in the world seem to believe they at one point dated Edward Cullen because Bella was a total self-insert character. But usually that kind of writing is highly criticized.


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## Jenwrites (May 12, 2018)

I only have 3 books that are either explicit or suggest race. I have one who is Hispanic - her last name and interaction with her grandmother make that explicit. The other two suggest white characters because the covers contain white characters. 

I describe hair and eye color. I mostly feature brown/black hair, brown eyed characters because most people have that combination. I do include other hair and eye colors to mix it up a bit. However, I never describe skin color (with the exception of the explicit book mentioned above). While it was mentioned that readers will fill in the gaps with a default, I'm hoping that those who are looking for a character like them will be able to place themselves in my stories.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Jenwrites said:


> I only have 3 books that are either explicit or suggest race. I have one who is Hispanic - her last name and interaction with her grandmother make that explicit. The other two suggest white characters because the covers contain white characters.
> 
> I describe hair and eye color. I mostly feature brown/black hair, brown eyed characters because most people have that combination. I do include other hair and eye colors to mix it up a bit. However, I never describe skin color (with the exception of the explicit book mentioned above). While it was mentioned that readers will fill in the gaps with a default, I'm hoping that those who are looking for a character like them will be able to place themselves in my stories.


I'll admit. If an author only gives me a hair and eye color of brown/brown, I'm assuming the character is a white person. It's one of those 'you don't describe skin color because you don't have to think about it' type of things to me. I never not know that I'm brown. It doesn't bother me to be brown, but I'm definitely not "colorblind".

I'm also not the type of person that "puts themselves" in stories. I don't generally read first person because, well, I don't want to be the character. I want to read about characters. And if someone manages to go 300 pages with not so much as a mention of "pale/tan/brown" skin, I definitely think they're White because they avoided it.

Last, I will say I notice the lack of skin descriptions more than others because I am a figure artist (I paint humans) and some of the sexiest things about people can, unfortunately, be things that tell race, like how people with pale skin will sometimes have red tipped fingers, knees, elbows, toes. Or being "flush" with blood from anger/arousal/embarrassment --- you describe those things, I will think white because dark pigmented people don't have that color change associated with flushing. They still have the rush of blood, the heat, etc.. but the skin color won't change as a reflection. So if there's ever a "rosy" description or another character describing seeing someone blush, I insert a white person because it then becomes logical.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> Yeah totally, I'm not saying the answers haven't been there. I'm saying my reason for asking wasn't to decide what I, personally, am going to do. It was merely asking do you, why or why not.
> 
> My goal isn't to get more people writing nonwhite characters if they don't want to write nonwhite characters. I don't want to change the way anyone decides to write, I wanted to know offhand who does and doesn't and why. When I look at blurbs, I don't know what characters are brown unless I do a search for "BWWM" or whatever and I was wondering how many people included POCs without thinking of them as a, per se, tailored genre? I don't know how to say it, but I feel like someone who tags the book "BWWM" purposely set out to write that novel versus writing a story that happens to include a POC.


I do not deliberately set out to write IR/MC novels. The ethnicities of the characters come to me as I build them. I wrote my first one because some aspects of the character were inspired by a real person who was of a somewhat similar ethnic background, and frankly because people of that background are quite attractive to my audience, and I suspected that would be the case. I do however place the book in IR/MC Romance, because some people enjoy that aspect and Contemporary Romance is the largest and most competitive subcategory on Amazon. I am not the most write to market person however and do not specialize in this category. Some books in a series may be in this category while others will not.

When I make a supporting character a POC I generally do not specify ethnicity but will indicate it in a more indirect way, as we all pay attention to how others look. Same with LGBTQ characters. I will indicate that by the person having a partner or expressing interest or whatever. I tend to be a fairly subtle writer however so that is part of it.

I still am not sure in what way this information helps anybody but there you go. That is what I do.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I do not deliberately set out to write IR/MC novels. The ethnicities of the characters come to me as I build them. I do however place the book in IR/MC Romance, because some people enjoy that aspect and Contemporary Romance is the largest subcategory on Amazon. I am not the most write to market person however and do not specialize in this category. Some books in a series may be in this category while others will not.
> 
> When I make a supporting character a POC I generally do not specify race but will indicate it in a more indirect way, as we all pay attention to how others look. Same with LGBTQ characters. I will indicate that by the person having a partner or expressing interest or whatever. I tend to be a fairly subtle writer however so that is part of it.
> 
> I still am not sure in what way this information helps anybody but there you go. That is what I do.


I'm the same way. I don't set out with a plan to write IR/MC, but when I start weaving backgrounds and developing the character, as lame as this sounds, the character will tell me who they are. And with only two categories, IR/MC isn't my first or second category pick. Though, Amazon does a good job of putting it there either way. I pick romance->gay and romance->contemp (or suspense) as I think both of those categories are more important than wasting one on IR/MC

I don't specify race all that much in supporting characters, either. They're not all white, but I don't linger on descriptions of them because they're not important.

I probably can't explain how it "helps". It wasn't really an advice question as much as just a poll. Like: what flavor ice cream do you like, why or why not. I'm not going to convince you to suddenly like strawberry if you don't like strawberry, I was just curious as to why you do or don't. And it was to satisfy my curiosity more than anything else.

Curiosity mostly satisfied. 

Though, now that the question's been asked, I've done extra thinking on the concept of description/lack of description and what people automatically insert for details. For example. If a character in a book mentioned a dog without really describing the dog. Say, we go with the human method of saying the dog is of average build and neutered or spayed, then I'm going to assume the dog has short, floppy ears and is brown/tan with a white chest and medium-short hair. Is that the most common dog coloring? Not really sure, but it's what I think about when I think of "dog".


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

One of the most important parts of writing fiction is helping the reader feel immersed in the story. In my experience, details that help the reader visualize the scene aid immersion greatly. If they can see the dog, they are that much more there. 

I actually do the IR/MC thing with keywords, as it works reliably. As my books in this category tend to do very well, it gives me much more visibility in the Amazon store.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> One of the most important parts of writing fiction is helping the reader feel immersed in the story. In my experience, details that help the reader visualize the scene aid immersion greatly. If they can see the dog, they are that much more there.
> 
> I actually do the IR/MC thing with keywords, as it works reliably. As my books in this category tend to do very well, it gives me much more visibility in the Amazon store.


Yes, I agree. Except if you read above lots of people don't specify skin color. So I was applying the same writing technique to dogs instead of to humans. We wouldn't half-way describe a dog and leave the rest to imagination, but it seems describing human characters is treated differently.

Those were my shower thoughts.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> I'll admit. If an author only gives me a hair and eye color of brown/brown, I'm assuming the character is a white person. It's one of those 'you don't describe skin color because you don't have to think about it' type of things to me. I never not know that I'm brown. It doesn't bother me to be brown, but I'm definitely not "colorblind".
> 
> I'm also not the type of person that "puts themselves" in stories. I don't generally read first person because, well, I don't want to be the character. I want to read about characters. And if someone manages to go 300 pages with not so much as a mention of "pale/tan/brown" skin, I definitely think they're White because they avoided it.


What if the character's name hints at their race? Do you still picture them as white if there's no other description? I mostly read and write first person, but I never imagine myself as the character. That would be weird. If I don't like the way a character is described but I like the book, I'll just ignore the description and picture something else. That's one of the reasons why I prefer books that don't have a lot of description.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

katherinef said:


> What if the character's name hints at their race? Do you still picture them as white if there's no other description? I mostly read and write first person, but I never imagine myself as the character. That would be weird. If I don't like the way a character is described but I like the book, I'll just ignore the description and picture something else. That's one of the reasons why I prefer books that don't have a lot of description.


If the name hints at their race, it's different. If the character's name is "Gabriel Sanchez" or "Cho Chang", that's one thing. And I guess, if you named the character "Laqueesha", I guess I'd assume she was black. I'd also put the book down, return it, and heavily consider giving it one star.

I'm Black american and you wouldn't know it by my name, so not all character names hint at race.

For me, if I don't like the way the character is described, I probably don't like the rest of the book so I'll toss it and move on to greener pastures. Since I like third person, I expect you to give me a good image of a character, not just a good enough one to not step on toes. Like I want to know if the character has curly, kinky hair and mahogany skin or a flushed nose and rosy cheeks. I don't want to use my imagination like that, I want to see exactly what the writer envisioned. That goes obviously for main/important characters. Lesser important characters, not so much. But if you're giving me romance and you don't comb over exactly how the other person looks then I'm going to miss some of the steamy physical connection.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

OP: think I have a better sense of what you're asking now. Sorry it took my dense brain so long. 

My answer:
-unless the person is white I note skin tone. Olive, tanned, dark golden.
-Typically describe the hair texture as thick and dark, soft curls, wavy, and so on.
-Facial features. The heroine in my WIP is indigenous so I felt it proper to describe her appearance (and later on the reader learns about her heritage).
-Accents during dialogue.
-Culture if necessary. I have one fantasy romance where the heroine is what, in our world, would be a Romani Gypsy. I went into some depth about her attire and appearance to provide the reader with this visual.

I hope this helps.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Rosie A. said:


> OP: think I have a better sense of what you're asking now. Sorry it took my dense brain so long.
> 
> My answer:
> -unless the person is white I note skin tone. Olive, tanned, dark golden.
> ...


It's fine.

I'm curious now if I note skin color when the character is white. I'm going to have to look back and see.

Yeah, I just wrote a romance where one of the heroes was Romani. He had a Romani first and last name, but it was modern day. He was detached from his culture a little, but his family played a role in the book so they provided the culture.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

L_Loryn said:


> It's fine.
> 
> I'm curious now if I note skin color when the character is white. I'm going to have to look back and see.
> 
> Yeah, I just wrote a romance where one of the heroes was Romani. He had a Romani first and last name, but it was modern day. He was detached from his culture a little, but his family played a role in the book so they provided the culture.


Come to think of it I have used 'ivory' and 'peach' to describe skin color before (the peach was for an elven heroine though lol). So...yeah.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

This is quite interesting.



L_Loryn said:


> Yeah, I just wrote a romance where one of the heroes was Romani. He had a Romani first and last name, but it was modern day. He was detached from his culture a little, but his family played a role in the book so they provided the culture.


As a European I would never consider Romany people being PoC. They are a different ethnicity, but race and colour wise they are white and Caucasian. In fact they are the original Caucasians, if you will.

Furthermore, if you describe skin colours being olive, tanned, dark golden, tan or brown, and even if you add brown eyes, dark hair and curls, this does not at all imply PoC to me. What gets considered "Caucasian" and "white" in Europe spans such a wide range of skin colours, including those not imparted by outdoors exercise, that I wouldn't ever consider anyone having them as not being white. Maybe of a different ethnic background, for example Iberian, Greek or another Mediterranean derivation, but certainly not brown or black or otherwise "of colour".

By the way, this is no "colour blindness", though I would state that skin colour is of a lesser and different import in Europe compared to the USA. It's simply the local way of looking at things. Noteworthy levels of being PoC start for me with black people and Asian people. That's where I see a difference of race. "White" is for me a very wide range of shades from the near blueish translucent white of the far Northern red-haired Celts right down to the dark tan or swarthiness of Greek or Iberian people.

We notice ethnicity and derivation instead of skin colour and learning about who gets called "brown" or "PoC" among my American friends often leaves me speechless. Vin Diesel, for instance, is not someone I'd call "brown" if I met him here on a street. I'd probably wonder which area of Southern or Eastern Europe he comes from. Difference of culture.

Racism, as this was touched in this thread, is a completely normal, natural phenomenon. Just as the ethnic/tribal othering which is more common here. It is part of our genetic and instinct-driven inheritance. Apes do it, most animals do it. It's a genetic trait you can't just shed at will. If you believe that, you kid yourself. You can suppress it, but the instinct is built into people and it has a direct bearing on our survival. That's why evolution put it there. That doesn't excuse racist behaviour, because of course we need to civilise ourselves eventually. But the knowledge that it is evolutionary should at least temper the reaction of people, I'd say.

And in this vein, and to answer the initial question: I do write people of different ethnicities in my romances, but I rarely consider them being of different races (because of what I detailed above) and I so far wrote few "PoC". There were several Asian MCs.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

LilyBLily said:


> Nicely said. I went to school with kids whose last names were the names of towns in Europe, or whose names had linguistic tags that identified them, so of course my parents could instantly tell me, "Oh, she's from Poland" or "That's German for..."


Indeed. Geographic derivation is much more important here than the exact tone of skin and what people attach to that. Huge difference between the USA and Europe in this respect. What is similar, however, is religion. Or the absence of any.

It shows that "othering", separating us from others on a tribal level, is something which is built into our system. I find it quietly amusing when I observe someone ardently against any kind of racism turn around and behave like that without even noticing that they are doing the exact same thing. Happens without fail to people of any colour, too.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Nic said:


> Racism, as this was touched in this thread, is a completely normal, natural phenomenon. Just as the ethnic/tribal othering which is more common here. It is part of our genetic and instinct-driven inheritance. Apes do it, most animals do it. It's a genetic trait you can't just shed at will. If you believe that, you kid yourself. You can suppress it, but the instinct is built into people and it has a direct bearing on our survival. That's why evolution put it there. That doesn't excuse racist behaviour, because of course we need to civilise ourselves eventually. But the knowledge that it is evolutionary should at least temper the reaction of people, I'd say.


I disagree. Tribes and races are not the same thing. And it would be counter-intuitive biologically since we're more likely to be killed by people of our own race. Also, some people adore/fetishize other races which would happen far less commonly. They've done studies with young children and found they don't make racial distinctions. It's something people are taught.

People believe what they are brought up to believe whether some races are rapists and thugs or others have naturally submissive women and are good at math. If your theory was true then all races should be equally afraid of each other, which isn't the reality.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Nic said:


> This is quite interesting.
> 
> As a European I would never consider Romany people being PoC. They are a different ethnicity, but race and colour wise they are white and Caucasian. In fact they are the original Caucasians, if you will.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Romani being considered POC is a debate, actually. I don't have the answer. They have, however, been discriminated against for years (centuries), so I feel like they get a place at the table.

POC as a term doesn't just stand for Black, Asian, but to be honest, when someone describes a character as "tan/olive/dark tan", I don't think POC either unless there's some other identifier. And that's mostly because I assumed the person who wrote it wasn't going for POC. They were going for "tan white person" or "olive skinned white person".

Though, a lot of the POC debate is whether the person considers themselves a POC, too. Yeah, if you described Vin Diesel in a book, no on would think of him as a POC, but when it got down to describing his background or delving deeper into who he is. He identifies as a POC. While that may or may not come out in the writing (meeting his family or something), it still affects the way the character views himself.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

The Romani's origins are from Northern India and although I've seen gypsies with lighter skin colors I've come across ones with skin color like mine (dark). Make of that what you will. 

I mean, the OP asked a question and some of us have done our best to provide a helpful answer, whether others agree or not.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> POC as a term doesn't just stand for Black, Asian, but to be honest, when someone describes a character as "tan/olive/dark tan", I don't think POC either unless there's some other identifier. And that's mostly because I assumed the person who wrote it wasn't going for POC. They were going for "tan white person" or "olive skinned white person".


If you want a majority of readers to absorb that a particular character is a race other than white, I think you have to be direct and probably repetitive. We all probably remember the fan anger over how the _Hunger Game_ films supposedly transformed white characters into people of color, when that wasn't the case -- the casting generally followed the books, with the possible exception of the main character, where the transformation went from racially ambiguous to clearly white. Apparently, Collins didn't hit her character descriptions hard enough to break through presumptions. Having read the first of those books, I'm honestly not sure how hard you have to hit it to knock the presumptions down. Collins's character descriptions seemed pretty darn clear to me, with phrases like "brown skin" or "dark brown skin." That info just doesn't sink in, apparently.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Becca Mills said:


> If you want a majority of readers to absorb that a particular character is a race other than white, I think you have to be direct and probably repetitive. We all probably remember the fan anger over how the _Hunger Game_ films supposedly transformed white characters into people of color, when that wasn't the case -- the casting generally followed the books, with the possible exception of the main character, where the transformation went from racially ambiguous to clearly white. Apparently, Collins didn't hit her character descriptions hard enough to break through presumptions. Having read the first of those books, I'm honestly not sure how hard you have to hit it to knock the presumptions down. Collins's character descriptions seemed pretty darn clear to me, with phrases like "brown skin" or "dark brown skin." That info just doesn't sink in, apparently.


You do. You really do.

Phrases like "dark brown" and "brown" will sink in as non-white to me, but given I'm around white people that are always so excited to get "tan" or describe their own skin tone as "olive", those particular descriptors aren't enough for me to see the character as a POC without something added to it.

In fact, changing "tan" to "fawn" or "tawny" would change perception to me. But again, it's because my exposure to the word "tan" mostly references white people not wanting to look pale.


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## notenoughcoffee (May 5, 2018)

> If you want a majority of readers to absorb that a particular character is a race other than white, I think you have to be direct and probably repetitive.


For real.

I've lived most of my life next to the border. I know a lot of people who look white white white... and barely speak English. They're Mexican. 100%. They identify as Mexican (or Hispanic, depending on who you ask). If I were writing in a character like that, I'd have to address how their interactions go with people, how they are assumed to speak English, how they are assumed to be American. But I'm not sure that's my story to tell for them.

I also know a whole lot of Hispanic people, with Hispanic names, who have never been to Mexico and don't speak Spanish. They're third and fourth generation, often with no ties to Mexico at all. Their skin tones run the gamut from pale to very dark. I'd have to write in how they are assumed to speak Spanish, assumed to be first or second generation, and how they get prejudice from all sides - white people assuming they don't speak English, and Hispanic people taking issue with them being too "white" or too "American" (I see this being especially an issue when one doesn't speak Spanish). But I'm not sure that's my story to tell for them either.

I have one WIP (not much intent to publish it, it's a pet project as there's not really a market for this sort of plot) with Hispanic characters because it's set in the deserts of southern New Mexico. I didn't want to whitewash a book that takes place in an area that is predominately Hispanic. The characters have Hispanic names. They toss out Spanish words sometimes. They physically look Hispanic. This comes into play later in the book when they are in Mexico; a person of any other race, who didn't speak Spanish, just wouldn't work for the plot, when I need characters that blend in, not stick out. I couldn't swap out the MC for someone who is African American, or Asian, or Russian.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

notenoughcoffee said:


> For real.
> 
> I've lived most of my life next to the border. I know a lot of people who look white white white... and barely speak English. They're Mexican. 100%. They identify as Mexican (or Hispanic, depending on who you ask). If I were writing in a character like that, I'd have to address how their interactions go with people, how they are assumed to speak English, how they are assumed to be American. But I'm not sure that's my story to tell for them.


I think as writers, we get a free pass to tell anyone's story we feel we can do adequate justice to.

And I know where you're coming from. One of my closest friends is Hispanic and doesn't speak Spanish. He's assumed to speak Spanish, of course. But I don't think anyone with unique cultural experiences would be upset that you sat down and wanted to talk about what they go through. To me, it would be kind of nice.

I mean, if someone wrote a story about how American Black people aren't exactly accepted by African Black people (I don't know if that's even the right way to say that), but then American White people ask them if they want to go back to Africa. If someone tackled that in a story-- and pulled it off well-- I wouldn't be mad at all.


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## RRodriguez (Jan 8, 2017)

I don't know if I should answer since I don't write Romance, but I do write stories with very heavy romance themes, but I wanted to throw in one more answer for you anyway.

For me, it's all over the place. My first novel features one white hero and one racially ambiguous hero (who will, admittedly, probably be read as white). Initially the second hero was described as having brown skin, but I decided to take that descriptor out after realizing there were too many ways that could be interpreted as offensive/problematic. Now, the book does have two POC supporting characters, but they are minor.

My second book has a white hero and a POC heroine, with a very small supporting cast that's completely mixed.

My third book has a 100% POC cast as it's set in a fictional country modeled after Mexico.

I don't know if that's important or not too. I write fantasy, so I don't know if that also effects things. For example, in my second book with a white hero and a POC heroine, they are both from the same country and share the same cultural background and heritage. Still, for what it's worth, I like to try to create a realistic mix. My books are all about featuring people who are LGBT+, differently abled, different religions, etc. So it's only realistic there's a range of skin tones as well.


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## Greg Dragon (Jun 10, 2014)

L_Loryn said:


> I mean, if someone wrote a story about how American Black people aren't exactly accepted by African Black people (I don't know if that's even the right way to say that), but then American White people ask them if they want to go back to Africa. If someone tackled that in a story-- and pulled it off well-- I wouldn't be mad at all.


Stop airing out our dirty laundry... (runs away from thread)


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> I think as writers, we get a free pass to tell anyone's story we feel we can do adequate justice to.
> 
> And I know where you're coming from. One of my closest friends is Hispanic and doesn't speak Spanish. He's assumed to speak Spanish, of course. But I don't think anyone with unique cultural experiences would be upset that you sat down and wanted to talk about what they go through. To me, it would be kind of nice.
> 
> I mean, if someone wrote a story about how American Black people aren't exactly accepted by African Black people (I don't know if that's even the right way to say that), but then American White people ask them if they want to go back to Africa. If someone tackled that in a story-- and pulled it off well-- I wouldn't be mad at all.




__
https://139448275729%2Fdear-white-writers
 might be, though. This is a significant challenge, I think, the balance between bringing more diversity into books (for those authors who want to do that) and not taking over stories others may feel belong to them ... while recognizing that the whole question of cultural belonging is difficult and prompts a wide array of responses. An added wrinkle: the issue of cultural appropriation, as I've seen it discussed, is connected to the environment of scarcity created by traditional publishing, where a company may only afford one author the opportunity to tell the story you describe above (or any other), such that if a white author takes that berth, an author of African heritage will not have the chance to do so, despite their personal and/or cultural connection to it. Indie publishing doesn't work that way, exactly, so perhaps things are somewhat different in our part of the book world? I don't know, it's hard to say. It's definitely something I think about, though.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Greg Dragon said:


> Stop airing out our dirty laundry... (runs away from thread)


AHHHHH. LOL.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

RRodriguez said:


> I don't know if that's important or not too. I write fantasy, so I don't know if that also effects things. For example, in my second book with a white hero and a POC heroine, they are both from the same country and share the same cultural background and heritage. Still, for what it's worth, I like to try to create a realistic mix. My books are all about featuring people who are LGBT+, differently abled, different religions, etc. So it's only realistic there's a range of skin tones as well.


Answer appreciated.

I like that you mentioned "differently abled". I mentioned POC but we could have the same cycle with that topic (I guess now I know what to bring up for my next controversial thread).

I don't generally mention religion.


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## notenoughcoffee (May 5, 2018)

> I think as writers, we get a free pass to tell anyone's story we feel we can do adequate justice to.


I'm not sure that I could. I'm not in their heads before, during, or after interactions where their race comes into play in a negative manner, even though I have personal experience with that myself, as there's a lot of prejudice coming from Hispanic people toward white people down there, but that's not the same as knowing what anyone else feels when faced with bigotry that's been embedded in the region for hundreds of years. Despite being a minority where I grew up, white people still didn't have the systemic racism and outright terrible treatment that Hispanic and Native Americans in that region did and still do. I can't even begin to compare my experiences with theirs, nor should I try to. Being bullied for being white is not even close to knowing your great grandparents were shot because they refused to live on the reservation, or seeing your parents struggle to get a home loan despite being qualified simply because they are Hispanic and speak broken English. It's not the same as getting poor treatment in a restaurant because you're speaking Spanish among yourselves (even if you also speak English well). It's not the same as getting pulled over by the cops again and again simply because you drive a lowrider.

I will never know what racial profiling feels like. I will never know what it's like to be unable to have the same basic rights granted to me as easily and seamlessly as white, and white passing, people. I will never feel like I have to work twice as hard for the same accolades as my white peers. And having an understanding of that is exactly why I feel I'm NOT qualified to write POC if their race is an issue in the book.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Becca Mills said:


> __
> https://139448275729%2Fdear-white-writers
> might be, though. This is a significant challenge, I think, the balance between bringing more diversity into books (for those authors who want to do that) and not taking over stories others may feel belong to them ... while recognizing that the whole question of cultural belonging is difficult and prompts a wide array of responses. An added wrinkle: the issue of cultural appropriation, as I've seen it discussed, is connected to the environment of scarcity created by traditional publishing, where a company may only afford one author the opportunity to tell the story you describe above (or any other), such that if a white author takes that berth, an author of African heritage will not have the chance to do so, despite their personal and/or cultural connection to it. Indie publishing doesn't work that way, exactly, so perhaps things are somewhat different in our part of the book world? I don't know, it's hard to say. It's definitely something I think about, though.


It goes back to telling the story appropriately. You're fine to tell my story, White, Asian, Purple Alien Monster as long as you do it correctly, do your necessary research, and do it accurately.

I see where you're coming from and I definitely see how some people would get upset at not being given the chance to tell their story. For me, I feel like if no one else is telling it, someone has to. If there's no one in the publishing house writing about the struggle some Hispanics experience in America, and a White person picks up the premise, does their homework, and prints a novel dealing with it. Sure, a Hispanic person now can't tell that story, but no one was in the first place?

It's different if there are twenty stories sitting on a desk about the same topic and the publishers pick the White person over the person who has a cultural tie to the story, but it's another if there's only one manuscript and the story happens to have a White author.

As far as indie publishing, well. It's a little different in that anyone can publish what they want, but there's a stigma attached to POC authors like there are female authors (or male authors) in certain genres.

For me, the question becomes: Is it more important for someone with a cultural tie to the story to tell it, or for as many eyes to get on the story as possible?


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

cultural expectation of U.S. readers: the less you describe a person, the more likely people are to assume the character is white, straight, cis-gendered, able-bodied, and male.

genre reader's expectation of the MC: me!

I realize this is oversimplified. I know a lot of people here said they don't like to imagine themselves as one of the main characters.

I think the success of Rick Riordan, Bella Forrest, and Stephanie Meyer proves that most U.S. genre readers disagree.

Reading _literary_ fiction, I almost never imagine myself as the main character, because experience has taught me that there's usually no happy ending and terrible things will happen in the book. Reading _genre_ fiction (besides horror) at least gives me the reassurance of fulfilling my escapist side: even if bad things happen to the MC, she's probably not going to die and will likely get a decent ending. I want to imagine myself there, as that character.

Children don't have nearly as many hangups as adults do imagining themselves as people of other races, genders, ethnicities, etc. That makes it even more crucial that the way we write characters in children's books reflects lived experiences (outside of spec fiction).

I strive to go against there being a "default" setting at all in my fiction. I have yet to write a white male character as my MC, and that kind of just happened. But one of the reasons I stopped writing romance that wasn't paranormal is because the audience seems to be less tolerant of PoC on covers, and I have to make money. The fastest way to change the system would be to have a massive influx of characters of color as MCs, out there and visible on the covers, but until I stabilize my income, I can't be the only one writing outside the sea of white football players, doctors, billionaires, rockstars, etc.

[JFYI for non-USian authors: PoC / people of color originated from the phrase _gens de couleur libres_, or free people of color. Historically, the term referred to both a certain group of Haitians struggling for equal rights under French law and a general group of people in the Americas with multiracial heritage. It gained wide usage in New Orleans in particular and spread from there.

It'soften confusing to ESL speakers why two terms, "colored people" and "people of color," both nouns using genitive expressions, are not interchangeable in the U.S. "Colored people" or "colored" was a segregation-era classification used to denote separate and unequal public and private services like bathrooms, water fountains, etc. "People of color" is a self-selected phrase that PoC have used to describe themselves for a long time.]


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

notenoughcoffee said:


> I'm not sure that I could. I'm not in their heads before, during, or after interactions where their race comes into play in a negative manner, even though I have personal experience with that myself, as there's a lot of prejudice coming from Hispanic people toward white people down there, but that's not the same as knowing what anyone else feels when faced with bigotry that's been embedded in the region for hundreds of years. Despite being a minority where I grew up, white people still didn't have the systemic racism and outright terrible treatment that Hispanic and Native Americans in that region did and still do. I can't even begin to compare my experiences with theirs, nor should I try to. Being bullied for being white is not even close to knowing your great grandparents were shot because they refused to live on the reservation, or seeing your parents struggle to get a home loan despite being qualified simply because they are Hispanic and speak broken English. It's not the same as getting poor treatment in a restaurant because you're speaking Spanish among yourselves (even if you also speak English well). It's not the same as getting pulled over by the cops again and again simply because you drive a lowrider.
> 
> I will never know what racial profiling feels like. I will never know what it's like to be unable to have the same basic rights granted to me as easily and seamlessly as white, and white passing, people. I will never feel like I have to work twice as hard for the same accolades as my white peers. And having an understanding of that is exactly why I feel I'm NOT qualified to write POC if their race is an issue in the book.


That's fair.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> Yeah, Romani being considered POC is a debate, actually. I don't have the answer. They have, however, been discriminated against for years (centuries), so I feel like they get a place at the table.


The reason for their discrimination is however ethnic, not skin tone related. Irish Travelers are subjected to the same kind of discrimination, lately also for instance Polish migrants. And just to clarify, there are regions in Africa and Asia where anyone not of the local ethnicity and skin colour is discriminated against, including white Europeans or Americans.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

kcmorgan said:


> I disagree. Tribes and races are not the same thing. And it would be counter-intuitive biologically since we're more likely to be killed by people of our own race. Also, some people adore/fetishize other races which would happen far less commonly. They've done studies with young children and found they don't make racial distinctions. It's something people are taught.


That's the politically correct take. I even sympathise with people opting for it, because it makes some discussions with racists easier.

Unfortunately "discrimination" is something hardwired into our species, and not just ours. I've personally seen "racist" dogs which will accept only mates of their own breed, my nieces tell me of equines preferring to socialise not just within the same breed, but which even drill it down to associating only with the same coat colour. No one has shown these animals a mirror or told them such and such is better [for them]. Curiosity or disinterest in children without any need yet to function on a tribal level has no real import on later behaviour, especially when these abilities and distinctions are relevant for survival. Yes, in some this is more, in others less expressed. Doesn't equate that it's only learned, or that it can be dismissed. The problem is that the whole thing is much more complex than we might currently wish for.

Fetishisation often happens when the object is taboo for the fetishiser. The thrill of the forbidden. In light of the fact that for example there are people fetishising amputees (right down to specific kinds) or artificially fattened people should give a hint to where that may originate.

I'm backing out of this part of the discussion because I don't want Becca coming down on me. But if this interests you, there are scientific texts out there about this.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Rosie A. said:


> The Romani's origins are from Northern India and although I've seen gypsies with lighter skin colors I've come across ones with skin color like mine (dark). Make of that what you will.


I wouldn't use the term "gypsy". It's like using the n-word for a black person, and roughly of the same level of disrespect.

The actual origin of the Romany is still unknown. Their partial derivation from Northwestern Indian Aryans is a hypothesis and hasn't been proven, though quite a few have tried in the recent past. That India claimed the Romany is highly contended, including and especially among the Romany themselves. There is no scientific proof for this at the moment whatsoever.

Again, in Europe skin colour, short of being black, is rarely ever a decider of ethnicity or race. Go to Corsica for your next holidays. I am sure you will meet a lot of people of the exact same shade who all are considered French and white.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Indie publishing doesn't work that way, exactly, so perhaps things are somewhat different in our part of the book world? I don't know, it's hard to say. It's definitely something I think about, though.


One would hope so.

As to appropriation, I believe underinformedness is the biggest problem. And the easiest to remedy.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Nic said:


> I'm backing out of this part of the discussion because I don't want Becca coming down on me. But if this interests you, there are scientific texts out there about this.


Where racism comes from is a really interesting question, but yeah, it does go beyond our boundaries.

BTW, it's nice to see you, Nic -- it's been a while.


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## Lara Reznik23 (Feb 6, 2015)

My new romantic suspense novel,_ Bagels & Salsa_ has a Jewish heroine and a Hispanic hero.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Lara Reznik23 said:


> My new romantic suspense novel,_ Bagels & Salsa_ has a Jewish heroine and a Hispanic hero.


Love the title.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Lara Reznik23 said:


> My new romantic suspense novel,_ Bagels & Salsa_ has a Jewish heroine and a Hispanic hero.


Totally off topic, but you and I nearly have the same first name and I also have a Dr. Quintana in my books (she's female and specializes in treating vampires though)


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## Logophile (May 13, 2018)

PinkHare said:


> Well, as shown by this very thread, it can certainly be a minefield.
> 
> In our current social climate, writers are even less likely to explore writing different groups for fear of giving offense. It's a real shame, too. *I could almost swear there was more diversity in books five to ten years ago than there is today.*


This is true. Too much political correctness nowadays.


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## Jenwrites (May 12, 2018)

L_Loryn, you said, "I'm also not the type of person that "puts themselves" in stories."


Maybe I'm weird. I always put myself in the story whenever I read. It doesn't matter if the story is first person, third person, male, female, etc. When I read, I am the character. 

Now that I think about it, I don't know of anyone else who does that. Guess I am weird after all.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> If you want a majority of readers to absorb that a particular character is a race other than white, I think you have to be direct and probably repetitive. We all probably remember the fan anger over how the _Hunger Game_ films supposedly transformed white characters into people of color, when that wasn't the case -- the casting generally followed the books, with the possible exception of the main character, where the transformation went from racially ambiguous to clearly white. Apparently, Collins didn't hit her character descriptions hard enough to break through presumptions. Having read the first of those books, I'm honestly not sure how hard you have to hit it to knock the presumptions down. Collins's character descriptions seemed pretty darn clear to me, with phrases like "brown skin" or "dark brown skin." That info just doesn't sink in, apparently.


I think this was two things. One was that people didn't realize Rue wasn't white, which is understandable IMO because most of her descriptions focus on how much she reminds Katniss of Prim.

The other was that the studio was casting only white actors for the role of Katniss. She is more racially ambiguous in the book, so she could be white, but she could also be not white. People were upset that non-white actors weren't considered, though I think we'd all agree that Jennifer Lawrence did a great job.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I think this was two things. One was that people didn't realize Rue wasn't white, which is understandable IMO because most of her descriptions focus on how much she reminds Katniss of Prim.
> 
> The other was that the studio was casting only white actors for the role of Katniss. She is more racially ambiguous in the book, so she could be white, but she could also be not white. People were upset that non-white actors weren't considered, though I think we'd all agree that Jennifer Lawrence did a great job.


The problem with that is that Rue was described in the book. Her race was made clear. It was clear her district was supposed to be a southern plantation. The problem I have is that people overwrote information they were given because they couldn't imagine a little black girl reminding Katniss of her little sister and that is messed up.

And while Katniss is described as having olive skin, it's pretty clear her district is the Appalachians, so I just pictured a white girl with a tan. The only person I pictured differently in book one is Cinna because his description is short cropped black hair and gold eyeliner, which they do in the movie, but I had imagined a white man because everyone is white unless specified which in the case of Rue and Thresh, it was made clear they were black, it just didn't count for some reason.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Crystal_ said:


> I think this was two things. One was that people didn't realize Rue wasn't white, which is understandable IMO because most of her descriptions focus on how much she reminds Katniss of Prim.


I didn't realize Rue wasn't white either, but it had nothing to do with Prim. I pictured Rue as having olive skin and Katniss a shade lighter. Rue was described as having "satiny brown" skin, and I think I had no idea what that means, because I associate satin with light and gentle colors for some reason--I think it's because of makeup called satin that I used to have, so I pictured the first thing that combination of words evoked in my mind. I guess satiny in this case means smooth? That didn't occur to me when I was reading the book.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

LilyBLily said:


> Thread hijack. It's been a while since I read the book, but considering where Katniss lived--which pretty clearly was West Virginia or another equally depressed coal-mining area in the southeast--and given that WV is one of the whitest states in the nation, I always assumed Katniss was white. Just as I always assumed Peta was "Peter" pronounced with either a heavy New York or British accent (both turn a final "er" into "ah" sounds). But what do I know? I never read the other books or saw the movie.


For me, Peta was "pita" like, you know, the bread. Because I liked bread. I don't remember the movies enough to remember how it was said.

I'm the type of reader that kind of disregards everything about the books when it comes to the movie. The movie, to me, is a whole different dragon with different creative liberties based on what the director wants. I read the books and I can't remember what Rue was described as, what Katniss was described as, and I thought Peta was milktoast. The only thing I remember is the rich people were crazy flashy. Like, weird flashy. And I was, for some reason, really into that part.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

katherinef said:


> I didn't realize Rue wasn't white either, but it had nothing to do with Prim. I pictured Rue as having olive skin and Katniss a shade lighter. Rue was described as having "satiny brown" skin, and I think I had no idea what that means, because I associate satin with light and gentle colors for some reason--I think it's because of makeup called satin that I used to have, so I pictured the first thing that combination of words evoked in my mind. I guess satiny in this case means smooth? That didn't occur to me when I was reading the book.


When something is satiny, it's a darker version of that color. So if I had a satiny red shirt, it'd be a darker red than red. This is what satiny brown looks like: https://rudebelle.com/product/brown-satin-floral-set/


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

kcmorgan said:


> When something is satiny, it's a darker version of that color. So if I had a satiny red shirt, it'd be a darker red than red. This is what satiny brown looks like: https://rudebelle.com/product/brown-satin-floral-set/


Not in any definition I've ever seen. Satin and satiny refer entirely to texture- smooth and shiny like satin fabric. I can't find any place where it is used to describe color.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

Sarah Shaw said:


> Not in any definition I've ever seen. Satin and satiny refer entirely to texture- smooth and shiny like satin fabric. I can't find any place where it is used to describe color.


Shiny is something visible. So even taking that with the color tells you it's a shiny version of the color as this is the first time she'd seen the girl and hadn't touched her skin to know what it felt like. So while you might object to her use of adjectives, satiny brown doesn't imply the character is white.


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## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> I can't write African American people well because honestly, I don't know the use of language well enough to make it look honest. With the US's long history of caricatures in entertainment that's the last thing I want to do, is come off like a white guy trying to write something that 'looks black'. Of course, not all African Americans use ebonics, but at the same time enough of them do, and if you are portraying an African American character you want it to appear genuine.


You don't know English? You seem to be doing well enough. 

Seriously though, I read a fair number of romances written by black women featuring black female heroines and "ebonics" is not a common feature except in certain specific sub-genres.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

Matt.Banks said:


> Obviously, I appear to be in the... minority  but I think that's an acceptable perspective to take.


Agree with you. I don't have an issue with Ms. James' take.



Matt.Banks said:


> A general question for all: when writing White characters, how much does culture/heritage play a part in their identity?


Wouldn't that depend on where they're from and who they are? I think just like with POC, the extent to which white people are embedded into a particular specific culture varies from community and individual to individual.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

kcmorgan said:


> When something is satiny, it's a darker version of that color. So if I had a satiny red shirt, it'd be a darker red than red. This is what satiny brown looks like: https://rudebelle.com/product/brown-satin-floral-set/


I've never heard it used that way. Since skin was being described and not clothes, it just didn't make much sense to me. I searched for the description of Rue on Google, and I see most describe her as having "dark satiny brown skin," even though in my copy of the book it's just "satiny brown." If "dark" had been in the book, there would've been no confusion. To me everyone is white unless clearly described otherwise, so when a character is described as having "brown skin," it's very likely I'm going to think olive or tanned.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The irony is that white authors who are most sensitive to not wanting to write some kind of "all-straight, all-white, generic WASP world" are the ones who will be trying hardest to get it right, and the ones who will be distressed by being told they have written a stereotyped character, a white savior trope if the other character is white, that they shouldn't be telling stories to which they have no right, etc. (That's a tough one. I don't know the answer to that--well, to any of it, really.) They may retreat from the whole thing in honest regret and confusion. 

I am not saying that these things shouldn't be called out, just that it can seem pretty no-win at times, as here, and it can feel like you are opening yourself up for attack. Much safer to write ****** McWhiteville and his straight white tuna-with-mayo friends. And that is a shame and surely not the answer. What is? I do not really know. I'll keep on doing my best, because what else can you do? And because ****** McWhiteville & his straight white buddies are a little monochrome and dull.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> The irony is that white authors who are most sensitive to not wanting to write some kind of "all-straight, all-white, generic WASP world" are the ones who will be trying hardest to get it right, and the ones who will be distressed by being told they have written a stereotyped character, a white savior trope if the other character is white, that they shouldn't be telling stories to which they have no right, etc. (That's a tough one. I don't know the answer to that--well, to any of it, really.) They may retreat from the whole thing in honest regret and confusion.
> 
> I am not saying that these things shouldn't be called out, just that it can seem pretty no-win at times, as here, and it can feel like you are opening yourself up for attack. Much safer to write ****** McWhiteville and his straight white tuna-with-mayo friends. And that is a shame and surely not the answer. What is? I do not really know. I'll keep on doing my best, because what else can you do? And because ****** McWhiteville & his straight white buddies are a little monochrome and dull.


Trying too hard is probably where it goes wrong.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Paranormal Kitty said:


> Trying too hard is probably where it goes wrong.


Which means what, exactly? When I write any character, I am trying to write a three-dimensional person with a specific, not some sort of general or boilerplate, background. Whatever their ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation. (If you write character-driven fiction, that had better be your goal, or your characters are going to come across as pretty flat.) So I am not really clear on what "trying too hard" would mean. Sincere question.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

oakwood said:


> I disagree. Characters are more more often associated/angled towards/influenced by, the gender, age, social standing, color, race, and abilities *of the reader*. If you do not state that your protag is a white redhead, and you have a chinese reader, chances are high it will be easier for them to relate as the character being closer to their own.


First I want to say... y'all can seriously keep a thread going. We're still talking about this ?   

I disagree to your disagree in that I think "minorities", whichever they are be it ethnicity or weight or bodied, will think of a "blank" character as someone from the majority. Or, in my case, I'll assume they look like the author. If I know the author is a white person, I'm probably going to insert a white person as the main character. Likewise, a fat person is going to assume the main character, unless stated otherwise, is thin. If the person reading is an amputee, they're going to assume the main character is able-bodied. There's no reason to assume otherwise.

It's not the lack of other details that makes the minority assume able-bodied, thin, white-ness, it's the lack of anything else. A fat person has struggles that would have to be pointed out in some way if the main character was overweight (someone commenting on their size, likely, or at the very least worrying about their size internally). Same thing with an amputee. They wouldn't hop out of bed in the morning and neglect to mention putting on a prosthetic. Likewise a PoC wouldn't move through life ignoring the tax they pay for being a PoC.

Also, I don't think a Chinese person would assume the character is Chinese unless they have a Chinese name. We all pick names for our characters-- and names say a lot (as you agreed).


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

oakwood said:


> I agree with your disagree!  yeah, this thread will live until it is locked by someone overstepping.
> 
> As yet we all seem to be keeping tidy though. I think reason for the topic being lively is that it is an important core factor in storytelling and perhaps a topic that is seldom aired. Anyway, its interesting to see all the viewpoints as we on this forum come from diverse regional and ethnic groups.


It did get a little hot somewhere around pages 3-5, but I think we're all good now. Got it out of our systems.

It's ultimately an interesting topic, the theory behind putting in PoCs and other various minorities and not putting them in. I almost wish the discussion was about all various minorities because we could have the same discussion about adding disabled people or fat people in the same manner. As in, not putting them in because the story centers around their differences, but because you created the character that way.

I very often end up slipping in a mental health disability, such as anxiety, depression, PTSD. And I will also often send their butts to therapy (in the story), too.


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## Magic Lane (Jun 20, 2016)

SalomeGolding said:


> You don't know English? You seem to be doing well enough.
> 
> Seriously though, I read a fair number of romances written by black women featuring black female heroines and "ebonics" is not a common feature except in certain specific sub-genres.


Ya. I'm white and have had and still have a number of female friends who are black and none of the speak Ebonics. They speak straight up the King's English. They sometimes use terms like "Hey, girl" that are associated with black speech, but it is more an occasional flavoring, for fun and emphasis.

I am writing a science fiction story and a mystery romance (2 different books) and trying not to mention skin or eye color - or anything else the would limit the race. I want my readers to be able to apply anybody they want to the MCs and all other characters. If they want all the characters to be black, that's fine with me. If they want all Asian, that's also fine. And on and on...

I know it's said that people assume the MCs in books written in English are white unless specified otherwise, but I think people need to get away from that. Once a reader starts reading, it doesn't matter if the characters don't look the way I picture them. More power to them.

I think it is only important if you are writing specifically about the lives of POCs or white people, something where the ethnicity and/or race is a part of the story.

I did know Rue was black and thought she made that very clear and that the sector Rue came from was primarily black. I thought Katniss was white, but I picked up that Cinna was black from something in the book. Can't remember what.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

SalomeGolding said:


> You don't know English? You seem to be doing well enough.
> 
> Seriously though, I read a fair number of romances written by black women featuring black female heroines and "ebonics" is not a common feature except in certain specific sub-genres.


You caught my glitch.  Woops.

But you got the idea. ;-)

Thanks for the input.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Which means what, exactly? When I write any character, I am trying to write a three-dimensional person with a specific, not some sort of general or boilerplate, background. Whatever their ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation. (If you write character-driven fiction, that had better be your goal, or your characters are going to come across as pretty flat.) So I am not really clear on what "trying too hard" would mean. Sincere question.


I know what I mean, but it's hard to explain. I guess I find it a little strange that a writer (at least one who is from the United States) would have to _try_ to _not_ write a "all-straight, all-white, generic WASP world" because we don't live in a "all-straight, all-white, generic WASP world". And maybe if they feel like they have to "try" that's indicative that they don't have enough life experience with people who aren't like them to write about people who aren't like them.

I think if someone isn't comfortable writing certain characters, then they shouldn't feel obligated to write them, but I don't care for this blaming it on fear of criticism because the subtext I hear in that is: _you people should just be happy you're included so shut up and don't complain about it or I just won't bother anymore._

Plus we can't discount that sometimes authors manufacture these controversies to boost sales.


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

oakwood said:


> I disagree. Characters are more more often associated/angled towards/influenced by, the gender, age, social standing, color, race, and abilities *of the reader*. If you do not state that your protag is a white redhead, and you have a chinese reader, chances are high it will be easier for them to relate as the character being closer to their own.


If you are a Chinese person from China and everyone you know is Chinese and so are most of the characters you are exposed to, then yes, your default human being is Chinese. But if you're a Chinese person born and raised in America and almost all characters you are exposed to are white and 70% of them are male, then yes, your default human being ends up being a white male.

Ask some minorities, most will tell you that they don't picture their race/gender when there is ambiguity. The reason for this is because they are likely to be wrong. And our brains aren't try to make us feel included, they are try to come to the right conclusion.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

oakwood said:


> I agree with your disagree!  yeah, this thread will live until it is locked by someone overstepping.


Let's try to keep it going.  For writers who're interested in including a wide range of characters, it's helpful to be able to talk about it, and an internet forum is a pretty good place to try to have that conversation, IMO.


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## Marchie (May 10, 2018)

kcmorgan said:


> Ask some minorities, most will tell you that they don't picture their race/gender when there is ambiguity. The reason for this is because they are likely to be wrong. And our brains aren't try to make us feel included, they are try to come to the right conclusion.


Whenever I read ambiguous character descriptions, I do picture them close to myself and the people around me. If I read that character A has dark hair (with no other descriptions), then I will assume a Black/Biracial woman in her mid to late 20s. I can't imagine reading a book and picturing every character as a White man. I don't even let the cover model influence me anymore now that I realize the issue with finding diversity in stock images. Plus, most minorities in America stay in urban areas. My neighborhood is 60% Black, 20% Asian, 10% Latino, and 10% White. It'd be odd for me to automatically assume White man when I'm surrounded by such a diverse community.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

Here Goes:

While I don't write category romance, the second book in my pulp adventure series does feature a romantic subplot that takes up a major part of the book and builds one of the primary character relationships that holds for all subsequent books. 

I'm currently writing a pulp adventure series that's loosely inspired by Doc Savage filtered through a lens of binge-watching Ancient Aliens while trying to find a group to play Call of Cthulhu and reading too much space opera. The books are set in an alternate Earth with the series beginning in 1937 (I'm currently writing Book 6 and just getting into January of 193.

While the original Doc Savage books featured Doc and a team of five white male compatriots, I decided from the beginning that in writing from a modern perspective I didn't want to limit my story by giving all my characters the same background. I ended up starting the series by giving Doc Vandal (my initial protagonist) a team of three: An erudite gorilla, an expatriate Russian Countess, and an African-American from North Carolina.

In the second adventure, I found myself writing more and more about the Countess (who has since become a co-lead of the series) and a large part of that adventure shows her falling in love with a Chinese woman. Note that they do get their HEA, and are still together as of book 6 with no plans on my part to ever break them up.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that yes I do include POC in my writing, and even in romantic relationships.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Marchie said:


> Whenever I read ambiguous character descriptions, I do picture them close to myself and the people around me. If I read that character A has dark hair (with no other descriptions), then I will assume a Black/Biracial woman in her mid to late 20s. I can't imagine reading a book and picturing every character as a White man. I don't even let the cover model influence me anymore now that I realize the issue with finding diversity in stock images. Plus, most minorities in America stay in urban areas. My neighborhood is 60% Black, 20% Asian, 10% Latino, and 10% White. It'd be odd for me to automatically assume White man when I'm surrounded by such a diverse community.


I think you're the exception to this rule.

As far as it being something indicative of location. I used to live in New Orleans, Texas, and Jackson, MS (along with Atlanta), both in rural and suburbs and I picture a white man/woman. I like being around diversity, of course, but I don't extend that to what the author expected. I pretty much think if the author skipped on details, it's because they "don't see color" thereby picturing everyone as white around them.

I also think it's lazy not to describe exactly how a character looks, but I get the idea of trying to be vague or nonspecific. I just think it fails most of the time.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

DCRWrites said:


> Here Goes:
> 
> While I don't write category romance, the second book in my pulp adventure series does feature a romantic subplot that takes up a major part of the book and builds one of the primary character relationships that holds for all subsequent books.
> 
> ...


 

We haven't even gotten to the success/failure of the romantic relationships. I think we're still covering putting them in there. But I like the note about them getting the HEA.

Unrelated, but does anyone else notice how PoCs talk to other PoCs versus non-PoCs? I was at the fabric store earlier (unrelated) and I was listening to a Black woman talk to this White woman about fabric. I don't know if it was purposeful or not, but she heavily used ebonics in the discussion while managing to sound like she was from the backwoods of nowhere. Now, the appearance didn't help. Let's say, she looked incredibly casual. While the white woman looked very put together and her child was wearing a dress.

When the Black woman moved to get her fabric cut, her tone changed towards the worker (a Black woman). I wish I could describe it more, but these are the types of interactions I expect to experience in a novel if you expect me to picture a PoC as the main-- interactions where the PoC changes the way they speak to others based on the color of their skin because, yes, it's real. I know there's a name for it, but I can't think of it at the moment.


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

L_Loryn said:


> I wish I could describe it more, but these are the types of interactions I expect to experience in a novel if you expect me to picture a PoC as the main-- interactions where the PoC changes the way they speak to others based on the color of their skin because, yes, it's real. I know there's a name for it, but I can't think of it at the moment.


Do you mean code switching?


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## kcmorgan (Jan 9, 2013)

L_Loryn said:


> We haven't even gotten to the success/failure of the romantic relationships. I think we're still covering putting them in there. But I like the note about them getting the HEA.
> 
> Unrelated, but does anyone else notice how PoCs talk to other PoCs versus non-PoCs? I was at the fabric store earlier (unrelated) and I was listening to a Black woman talk to this White woman about fabric. I don't know if it was purposeful or not, but she heavily used ebonics in the discussion while managing to sound like she was from the backwoods of nowhere. Now, the appearance didn't help. Let's say, she looked incredibly casual. While the white woman looked very put together and her child was wearing a dress.
> 
> When the Black woman moved to get her fabric cut, her tone changed towards the worker (a Black woman). I wish I could describe it more, but these are the types of interactions I expect to experience in a novel if you expect me to picture a PoC as the main-- interactions where the PoC changes the way they speak to others based on the color of their skin because, yes, it's real. I know there's a name for it, but I can't think of it at the moment.


While I do code switch, it's usually the reverse of what you're describing. I sound whiter around white people and blacker around black people. It's not even a conscious choice. I also pick up Indian accents which is really bad because they probably think I'm trying to mock them.

One time I was watching Jerry Springer or something and I started talking about it and I was in full sista gurl mode in front of my white friend who was just tickled pink to watch me shift like that.

It stems from people thinking negatively of me if I don't speak to them in a certain way.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

kcmorgan said:


> While I do code switch, it's usually the reverse of what you're describing. I sound whiter around white people and blacker around black people. It's not even a conscious choice. I also pick up Indian accents which is really bad because they probably think I'm trying to mock them.
> 
> One time I was watching Jerry Springer or something and I started talking about it and I was in full sista gurl mode in front of my white friend who was just tickled pink to watch me shift like that.
> 
> It stems from people thinking negatively of me if I don't speak to them in a certain way.





Paranormal Kitty said:


> Do you mean code switching?


I think code switching is more of what kcmorgan described. We all code-switch slightly. I mean I go full-on steward-esque on the phone when I help customers. However, I've been working on NOT code switching so much. My habit was to sound "Blacker" when I was around a lot of Black people because I don't use ebonics.

For this lady it was more like... she purposely dumbed herself down to talk to this white woman. Maybe it was my perception as a person who has left the deep south in my late teens and didn't come back until I was thirty, but it seemed like she tried to sound dumber when she talked to this woman.

Kcmorgan - my partner does exactly what you do. She's white and from Texas and didn't understand rap or r&b music until I met her (now it's her go-to music, small victories), but she mimics whatever accent she's around. It annoys me because it can sound like she's making fun of the way Black people talk when she does it around a group of Black people.


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## Magic Lane (Jun 20, 2016)

L_Loryn said:


> I also think it's lazy not to describe exactly how a character looks


I disagree with this. I think describing exactly how a character looks takes away an important entry point into the story from the reader. A general description, maybe with one distinguishing feature if they have one, is all I want when reading.

And why does a character have to look exactly like the author pictures that character, anyway? Unless their physical characteristics are important to the story, why can't it be anything the reader wants?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

In romance, readers generally want a very good idea of how characters look. Personally the more vivid even secondary characters are, the better the book seems to do. Otherwise they are talking balloon heads. And painting a vivid picture will generally include ethnicity.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

DCRWrites said:


> While I don't write category romance, the second book in my pulp adventure series does feature a romantic subplot that takes up a major part of the book and builds one of the primary character relationships that holds for all subsequent books.
> 
> I'm currently writing a pulp adventure series that's loosely inspired by Doc Savage filtered through a lens of binge-watching Ancient Aliens while trying to find a group to play Call of Cthulhu and reading too much space opera. The books are set in an alternate Earth with the series beginning in 1937 (I'm currently writing Book 6 and just getting into January of 193.
> 
> ...


You just sold your books to me. *grabs wallet*


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Usedtoposthere said:


> In romance, readers generally want a very good idea of how characters look. Personally the more vivid even secondary characters are, the better the book seems to do. Otherwise they are talking balloon heads. And painting a vivid picture will generally include ethnicity.


Most of my five-star reviews mention how vivid the characters were and that everything was easy to picture. My descriptions are minimal, since I've always hated them. Actually, if there are too many details about how a character looks, I'm more likely to imagine them as a caricature, especially when the author starts describing their cheekbones or their nose, so I have to skip those. Some readers want everything described and some don't. I like that my readers are free to picture a person of their own race as the main character, if that's what they want.


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## SalomeGolding (Apr 25, 2018)

kcmorgan said:


> If you are a Chinese person from China and everyone you know is Chinese and so are most of the characters you are exposed to, then yes, your default human being is Chinese. But if you're a Chinese person born and raised in America and almost all characters you are exposed to are white and 70% of them are male, then yes, your default human being ends up being a white male.
> 
> Ask some minorities, most will tell you that they don't picture their race/gender when there is ambiguity. The reason for this is because they are likely to be wrong. And our brains aren't try to make us feel included, they are try to come to the right conclusion.


Definitely agree with this. In fact, even if you grow up in a majority non-white country, if the majority of American / English literature, television programmes, movies, etc. that you are exposed to feature white people, then by default you will imagine white people if the characters are not otherwise defined and they are set in what you can identify as an "English" or "American" context.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

L_Loryn said:


> ...my partner does exactly what you do. She's white and from Texas and didn't understand rap or r&b music until I met her (now it's her go-to music, small victories), but she mimics whatever accent she's around. It annoys me because it can sound like she's making fun of the way Black people talk when she does it around a group of Black people.


This was part of the point I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.

I don't think any author wants to write a POC character's language and come off like they're making fun of the POC group, when that wasn't intended.

It may not be the same, as the written word is obviously different than when you are hearing or seeing someone speak, but it is on the back of the mind just the same. You want to make sure it 'sounds' genuine. If it doesn't, it could come off like a caricature or 'making fun' even when it is not intended to be received that way.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Magic Lane said:


> I disagree with this. I think describing exactly how a character looks takes away an important entry point into the story from the reader. A general description, maybe with one distinguishing feature if they have one, is all I want when reading.
> 
> And why does a character have to look exactly like the author pictures that character, anyway? Unless their physical characteristics are important to the story, why can't it be anything the reader wants?


Okay, we're all entitled to our opinions? I mean I'm not asking for a perfect rundown of exactly how the character looks as soon as you intro them, but I like subtle clues as the book progresses. Plus, a character rarely describes themselves to, well, themselves. Since I write romance, I usually describe one character from the lens of the other.

If there's no distinguishing characteristics that make the character beautiful to the love interest, then I'm supposed to pretend it's all some mental thing? Hah, yeah okay. It's like talking to your best friend. They say they meet a person and their description is "Well s/he's hot." Yeah, but how and why?

Another question I think is important is the tense we're all writing in.

I write in third person past. It's going to be weird for me to be hanging out on my character's shoulder and conveniently forget all details. However, I can see if you're writing first person past (or present), then you don't want to get too detailed on the description of the person telling the story because it can make it awkward for the reader if they don't look like the storyteller. I guess. I think first person (past or present) is awkward no matter what (perhaps because I never view myself as the person in the story and I'm honestly creeped out by first person intimate scenes). And yes, I know it's the most popular in the romance genre.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

For obvious reasons I never describe a character from their own POV because I'm writing pulp action and I usually have my characters doing things rather than staring into mirrors. I do try to get things like height, weight, hair, and eyes down at some point or another but I don't focus on the characters that way. 

In fact the only character I've really described closely is Shard, who's a rather Lovecraftian alien; and that's because I want to drive home the physical differences between her species and humanity.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> This was part of the point I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.
> 
> I don't think any author wants to write a POC character's language and come off like they're making fun of the POC group, when that wasn't intended.
> 
> It may not be the same, as the written word is obviously different than when you are hearing or seeing someone speak, but it is on the back of the mind just the same. You want to make sure it 'sounds' genuine. If it doesn't, it could come off like a caricature or 'making fun' even when it is not intended to be received that way.


I think it would be different as written word. And also different because she's around a specific group (not PoC group, it's more regional) when she does it. When she's at home, she doesn't come at me with the same type of speech. She speaks her default.

Because she's (basically) code-switching, it can't be the same with writing because you make a conscious effort to write someone's dialogue in a work while code-switching is more of an effort to fit in or, rather, not stand out.

As far as making it sound genuine... yeah, well.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

DCRWrites said:


> For obvious reasons I never describe a character from their own POV because I'm writing pulp action and I usually have my characters doing things rather than staring into mirrors. I do try to get things like height, weight, hair, and eyes down at some point or another but I don't focus on the characters that way.


Pretty much yeah. My characters aren't staring into mirrors so I never run down the list of how they look when I'm following them. There's a "run down" at the meet cute of the love interests looks. I'm generally vague on height as I assume no one knows exactly how tall they are (or at least no one cares). My height is: short, average, tall. Or generally in relation to another character who I've described already. I did do a look-inside where the narration said exactly how tall the character was and I thought it was weird because I can't picture what "six foot three" is. Tall would've worked or "a foot taller than me" (if told from the shorter person's perspective) because it's easy to assume the tall person is around 6ft and change and the other is 5ft and change.

I describe build more because I write gay romance and I'm particular about people assuming the "bottom" is the thin/slender one and the "top" is the muscular/bulky one. I will hammer home the look of both of the men before it gets intimate.


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## DCRWrites (Jan 20, 2014)

L_Loryn said:


> Pretty much yeah. My characters aren't staring into mirrors so I never run down the list of how they look when I'm following them. There's a "run down" at the meet cute of the love interests looks. I'm generally vague on height as I assume no one knows exactly how tall they are (or at least no one cares). My height is: short, average, tall. Or generally in relation to another character who I've described already. I did do a look-inside where the narration said exactly how tall the character was and I thought it was weird because I can't picture what "six foot three" is. Tall would've worked or "a foot taller than me" (if told from the shorter person's perspective) because it's easy to assume the tall person is around 6ft and change and the other is 5ft and change.
> 
> I describe build more because I write gay romance and I'm particular about people assuming the "bottom" is the thin/slender one and the "top" is the muscular/bulky one. I will hammer home the look of both of the men before it gets intimate.


I do do heights, and to an extent weights partly for determining things like reach, but also because it's the kind of thing the character from whose perspective I usually write these details would either notice or remember. He also needs to know these details when he's designing a custom-fitted suit of power armor for someone.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> I write in third person past. It's going to be weird for me to be hanging out on my character's shoulder and conveniently forget all details. However, I can see if you're writing first person past (or present), then you don't want to get too detailed on the description of the person telling the story because it can make it awkward for the reader if they don't look like the storyteller. I guess. I think first person (past or present) is awkward no matter what (perhaps because I never view myself as the person in the story and I'm honestly creeped out by first person intimate scenes). And yes, I know it's the most popular in the romance genre.


I read both first and third person the same way. It's like watching a movie for me. I don't know if that's because the first book I read in first person had a male main character, so I never even thought about inserting myself. Second person is the only one that throws me off, but if I really want to read the story, I imagine it's directed to someone else, but it takes some effort. I'm curious, though. What do you see when you read first person, since you say intimate scenes creep you out but you don't view yourself as the person in the story? Do you see the main character at all or just the characters the MC is interacting with?


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

katherinef said:


> I read both first and third person the same way. It's like watching a movie for me. I don't know if that's because the first book I read in first person had a male main character, so I never even thought about inserting myself. Second person is the only one that throws me off, but if I really want to read the story, I imagine it's directed to someone else, but it takes some effort. I'm curious, though. What do you see when you read first person, since you say intimate scenes creep you out but you don't view yourself as the person in the story? Do you see the main character at all or just the characters the MC is interacting with?


I won't read second person. Yep, I'll close it and push it away. Goosebumps was the first and last time I read second person.

First person? I generally don't read them. Yes, I'll put it down. If I have to read it (editing someone else's work or it's requested I read it), I see the main character as another person.

There are plenty reasons why I don't like first person in romance:
1. When/if the main characters "talk dirty" to each other, I don't like when, during sexual encounters, one person tells the other what's going to happen. "I'm going to pound *you *against the wall." Said main character to the other. Yeah, no thanks. It's personal. Like some people don't like "Daddy" or "baby girl" etc. I know it's in third person, too. But when it's first, it's an intimate line I don't like crossing. Maybe because it now drags in my own experiences? Who knows.

2. It feels like I'm in the author's head when they're fantasizing rather than on the wall watching two people fall in love. I don't want to read the author's fantasy. I want to read about two people falling in love. I know it's not necessarily the author's fantasy, but it's how it feels for me.

3. If the narration changes and I don't feel a distinct difference in how the stories are told, I don't see why it wasn't written in third. First person is for unreliable narrators, not just to do it.

4. I don't like italicized thoughts. Frankly, I don't care about anything going on in someone's head. I find that it pulls me out of the story because now I'm thinking the main character sounds childish, those wouldn't be my thoughts, etc etc.

Yeah I know my brief listicle was a little unrelated, but it's the collection of things that drag me out of the setting and make it hard to identify with. I feel like I'm an intruder in someone's brain. I definitely don't want to be there, I want to be in a coffee shop eavesdropping. When you're in a coffee shop eavesdropping, you don't have a scrolling marquee telling you other people's thoughts.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

L_Loryn said:


> Yeah I know my brief listicle was a little unrelated, but it's the collection of things that drag me out of the setting and make it hard to identify with. I feel like I'm an intruder in someone's brain. I definitely don't want to be there, I want to be in a coffee shop eavesdropping. When you're in a coffee shop eavesdropping, you don't have a scrolling marquee telling you other people's thoughts.


Thanks for explaining. It makes more sense to me now. I feel the same way as you about some of the things you listed, but they don't throw me out of the story. I'll quit reading when I don't like something, but it'll never be because it feels too intimate. I like reading about characters' thoughts, and if they forced some innocent author to tell their story, then they want me in their thoughts so I'd know them better, which means I'm not intruding on anything.


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## WegR (Mar 4, 2016)

Great thread with lots of thought provoking input - thanks.

Currently struggling with conflicting advice - I have refugees from around the world (mostly from various African and Arabic countries) in my WIP, and obviously they're PoC. That much should be obvious from the writing, too, because if you come from Nigeria then you are most probably going to be Black.

However - advice on the net varies: some say leaving out skin color descriptors is a sign of White folk too scared to be clear, others (like many in this thread) suggest these indicators are unnecessary.

I'll have to think about this some more, and read a few more stories with more white, non-white and PoC characters mixing.


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