# Copyright of "Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night"--Dylan Thomas



## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Hi,
Does anyone know if this famous poem is still in copyright, and whether quoting 2 lines from it would require permission?

Sorry, taking a chance that someone might know offhand. Couldn't find the info easily on the Net.

Richard


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

My guess is that it's still in copyright -- published in the fifties -- but that quoting 2 lines in most cases is fair use and shouldn't be a problem.  I'm sure you'll get other opinions.


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## Christine Merrill (Aug 19, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> My guess is that it's still in copyright -- published in the fifties -- but that quoting 2 lines in most cases is fair use and shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure you'll get other opinions.


My librarianship is rusty. But I am pretty sure that fair use is reserved for research and non profit uses. If you're selling the book, you can't play that card. Also, poetry is tricky because you figure useage based on the portion of the work used. And poems are short. So two lines is a noticeable quote.

I'd recommend doing extra research on this, like asking an education librarian versed in copyright rules. Or just asking permission. The worst they could say is no (or give me a zillion dollars).


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Generally copyright runs out 70 years after the author's death. So when did Dylan Thomas die?


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

He died in 1953 according to Wiki.
His work is still under copyright.

Here is the page with info on getting permission: http://www.dylanthomas.com/index.cfm?articleid=20965

*By the way, all I did was search "Dylan Thomas Copyright."


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Note: although the law says "70  years after death" that's not currently a good way to figure public domain, because things which were in the public domain before the law went into effect remain so -- and the term has been extended continuously so that, so far, nothing new has come into public domain.

For the U.S. (and it's different in different countries -- you can check Project Gutenberg for info on UK -- it generally falls into the public domain if it was published before 1923 (i.e. not IN 1923).  Thomas didn't start publishing until the thirties.

Camille


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

MichelleR said:


> My guess is that it's still in copyright -- published in the fifties -- but that quoting 2 lines in most cases is fair use and shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure you'll get other opinions.


Of course it has a copyright. "Fair Use" doesn't apply here.

"Fair Use" is Ok for reviews, libraries, academia, teachers etc--non-commercial purposes. Your book is commercial. Any other use is not granted by "fair use" for a copyrighted print work. Song lyrics and poems are especially troublesome and "use" determines whether permission will be granted and how the courts will view it. Legally the copyright holder or heirs can convey permission and I would suggest trying to get in touch with them, it's worth the extra effort. Then you simply use the lines and footnote an attribution in addition to "permission granted in the back page". The courts look at 4 special legal tests in applying the law.

Usually if you are polite and the use is only a small infringement and doesn't offend the rights holder you can do the deal for a dollar. Try to deal only with the principles and not agents. If you were a bestselling author it could be different.

You can try dealing with a clearance agency but that will only cost you money and they like money very much. Do some detective work--it worked for the then young Stephan King...he cleared all the stuff himself.

You could cross your fingers but...it could come back at you and you would probably loose. An ounce of prevention is worth...


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I would like to note something about a misunderstanding people have here about "fair use" and creative expression.

First: this is NOT legal advice, nor am I recommending use of the quote.  You need to get legal advice to know how well you are covered.  And imho the advice to simply ask, or to use a clearance agency is the best you'll get here.

But.... the difference between academic and reviewing use and "commercial" use is less easy to define than people have mentioned here.  If you wanted to put that quote on a t-shirt -- yes, that's commercial work and not allowed.  Use in another creative work, as a form of social commentary, is stickier, and more of a gray area.  It's not cut and dried.  A great many books have "here's looking at you kid" or "we're not in Kansas any more" without having cleared it.

The thing to remember is that even though there is a large gray area, that area belongs to the side which is willing to go to the mat legally speaking.  If someone takes you to court, it's going to be costly, even if they don't have a leg to stand on.  Getting permission, even when you don't legally have to, is a good way to avoid headaches.

Camille


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

As I said, other people would come along and give more informed advice. 

The reason why I think it would be fair use is because 2 lines doesn't take away from the profitability of the original, the OP presumably will be deeming the value of the piece based on his own work, and not from selling a Dylan Thomas semi-poem, and the final work enriches the community -- but I'm not an expert and not claiming anyone should listen to me and I know there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of people on this board with a better understanding of the issue.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Here this may help you:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-rule-copyright-material-30100.html

and from the horses mouth:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Hope it helps.


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## Joseph Flynn (Sep 29, 2010)

Richard: Yes, it's still in copyright, as noted above. Here's the link to the Dylan Thomas website. http://www.dylanthomas.com/index.cfm?articleid=20965
As you can see, they're set up for copyright inquiries.

In the Bantam edition of my book Digger, I used seven lines of Steve Mason's poem DEROS: My Soul. The price was $350. Bantam added it on to my advance.


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

Commercial use can sometime be considered fair use. An example might be a political cartoon in a newspaper comparing a politician to Micky Mouse (I know, that's hardly fair to Mickey). The problem is, corporations are pushing to eliminate fair use and shrink the public domain.

Walt Disney Corporation has been so successful (at least partially) thanks to their ability to use the public domain to create movies like Pinocchio, Cinderella, and The Little Mermaid. But, they spend millions of dollars to keep Micky locked up tight (see Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act). The public domain is important to societies for many reasons; one of the main one is that it helps culture to flourish.

But, getting off of my soapbox, I agree that taking 2 lines from a copyrighted book is often fair use, *2 lines from a poem is another story*. One of the factors in determining fair use is the percentage of the original used. For example Hip-hop artists often sample very small portions of other music to sue in their songs, the US Supreme Court ruled this cane be fair use (their were other issues her, such as the fact the song was a parody).

Usually, you can find an IP attorney who will talk to you for free, say over the phone. I'm sure they won't tell you a straight yes or no (there's just too much gray area), but they might be able to offer you some valuable advice in hopes that you'll use their services or refer them to someone in the future.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Walt Disney Corporation has been so successful (at least partially) thanks to their ability to use the public domain to create movies like Pinocchio, Cinderella, and The Little Mermaid."_

How does Disney use the public domain to make Little Mermaid?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"Walt Disney Corporation has been so successful (at least partially) thanks to their ability to use the public domain to create movies like Pinocchio, Cinderella, and The Little Mermaid."_
> 
> How does Disney use the public domain to make Little Mermaid?


I think he meant that they exploit public domain stories, such as The Little Mermaid, and turn them into IP which they defend so fiercely that they sometimes overstep into claiming ownership of elements from the public domain.

Camille


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Song lyrics and poems are especially troublesome and "use" determines whether permission will be granted and how the courts will view it.


One of my books back in 1989 had song lyrics in the part sections like Stephen King and other authors have done with their books. My agent told me to get rid of those because they could be "expensive" and a "hassle" to secure the rights to use. Have never tried to use lyrics since then but I think these days there is the possibility to get this type of commercial use at a more affordable cost or as was already suggested, contact the rights holder first hand. In other words go to the band (or whomever owns the rights to the published song), pay them $1 and get something signed from them. As with anything else in business, make sure there is a paper trail and check with legal.

At various times over the last 10 years I've considered approaching some indie bands to get permission to use song quotes from them for some of my books. I figure most of them would love the 'free' promotion (and getting $1 from me would be a bonus).


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

I have written to the agent, but am also taking this and many other truly informative opinions into consideration: 

"The reason why I think it would be fair use is because 2 lines doesn't take away from the profitability of the original, the OP presumably will be deeming the value of the piece based on his own work, and not from selling a Dylan Thomas semi-poem, and the final work enriches the community"

So I will keep my fingers crossed, but include the 2 lines anyway--the worst that would happen is that they would ask me to remove it (it's an e-book). 2 lines in a 20,000-word book.

Richard


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## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm wondering now, after reading this thread, what one could use without having to go through all the leg work of securing rights. For example, in my current WIP a couple of songs are mentioned and then a little bit later a quick reference is made to a specific section of lyrics. 

This is a very small blurb- like "Go on an hold her..." for that Melissa Etheridge song. So it's not even a full line. Would I have to take out the specific lyrics even though they are very small mentions and not even a full line?


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MichelleR said:


> As I said, other people would come along and give more informed advice.
> 
> The reason why I think it would be fair use is because 2 lines doesn't take away from the profitability of the original...


I studied up a lot on this issue and even posted on it a few weeks ago.

Bottom line is, even a couple lines can be considered beyond the bounds of fair use in a commercial work. When money gets involved... well, money gets involved.

I forget where I read this, someone's blog... but someone posted the story of an author who used two lines of a song and checked into permissions and the licensing fee the agency quoted him was in the 10K range. For an eBook.

I was thinking of using two lines I liked out of a Rev Theory song, "Voices," as a tone-setter in front of my novel MOST LIKELY.

I tried Twittering the band, contacted their agency in LA, etc., etc., and couldn't get hold of anyone willing to even respond to me.

Bottom line? I cut the quote. It wasn't so important to me as a tone-setter that I wanted to put myself at that kind of financial risk.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Kpfowler said:


> I'm wondering now, after reading this thread, what one could use without having to go through all the leg work of securing rights. For example, in my current WIP a couple of songs are mentioned and then a little bit later a quick reference is made to a specific section of lyrics.
> 
> This is a very small blurb- like "Go on an hold her..." for that Melissa Etheridge song. So it's not even a full line. Would I have to take out the specific lyrics even though they are very small mentions and not even a full line?


I'd suggest something like that, while on the low end of the risk scale, is still a risk.

Ask yourself, "Can I afford the consequences if Melissa's people see this, get p*ssed, and demand money or a cease-and-desist, or even seek damages?"

"Go on and hold her" is a fairly generic phrase, so the other way to go is to drop all mention of artist and song and just attribute the phrase to a fictional artist and song. Because there's probably tens of thousands of songs with that phrase, so you could just attribute it to a fictional band/artist, rather than risking things by associating it with a real band/artist.

Example: In my current WIP, I wanted to feature a cameo by a female NASCAR driver. It would be easy to use the name Danica Patrick... and legally risky.

So, I decided to create a second-generation female NASCAR driver who's following in Patrick's footsteps, for the purposes of my novel. Now I can do what I want with that character and rest easy, because it's a fictional character and not Danica. It actually frees me up...


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

I wrote a story for an anthology once that was the title of a song featured prominently in a TV show and although I don't think I named the show in the story, I referenced it about 20 times, quoted a famous line from it. I would imagine 90% of the readers knew exactly which show I was riffing on. Neither the editor nor, by extension, the publisher seemed to be concerned. I get that this is different, but I'm not sure why it's different.


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## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks to both of you. The song blips are kind of important and I'm using them to hit the senses, "sound" along with other things. Maybe if I cut mention of the specific artist/titles and used more generic blurbs it will work... of course, I'll have to describe the tone/tempo a little better.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Kpfowler said:


> Thanks to both of you. The song blips are kind of important and I'm using them to hit the senses, "sound" along with other things. Maybe if I cut mention of the specific artist/titles and used more generic blurbs it will work... of course, I'll have to describe the tone/tempo a little better.


Keep in mind, I'm not a copyright lawyer.

I just know it's good to err on the side of not getting sued.


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## Ryne Billings (May 15, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Keep in mind, I'm not a copyright lawyer.
> 
> I just know it's good to err on the side of not getting sued.


As long as we're not getting sued, I don't think that we're erring.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I just know it's good to err on the side of not getting sued.


I'd buy that bumper sticker.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

This is a hunch (so sue my hunch if it turns out it erred): that lines from songs are far more precious and therefore difficult to use without copyright, than lines from poems. 

Two lines from a famous 1951 poem--possibly his most famous--who doesn't know them? 

But to take a different scenario, I don't suppose any permission is needed if you paraphrase or rewrite a famous line. Say, supposing, I had a chapter heading that said (and I might): 

I Shall Not Go Gentle, But Dragging and Screaming, into that F**king Night!

Can't object to that, or to this: 

I shall, as Dylan Thomas puts it, "rage against the dying of the light."

anyone disagree?

thanks.
Richard


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

The legal stuff I posted was just that and a warning that you could have problems.  But there are creative workarounds especially with a very popular song lyric if you are clever and that would not be infringement.  Like you can use the artists or writers name and you can use the title of the song if you are quite clever the reader already knows the lyrics.  

Next:  I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice and I will always say get permission, but......Federal Courts tend to be pricey and not an action most would take with a small ebook.  Before infringement court summons you will get a "cease and desist order" from the infringed authors lawyer.  Which means to remove it before we take further action. Maybe they will be open to an accomodation--likely not.  Remember you are a small fish who doesn't like Federal Court and remove it from your ebook.  That would be a big problem if it was a paper book.  Or a movie.

My personal opinion is that so much in music and words have become such an integral part of culture, civilization and our daily lexicon that a few lines of anything should be permitted as long as there is no detriment to the original copyrighted writer or his work.  But that's just my opinion and not the law at this time.  You can take your chances, "...so ask yourself are you feeling lucky today punk?" Now right there I just infringed upon someones copyright, didn't I?  I have to say it has been adopted by our popular culture to such a degree that the usual law should not apply.  If I needed would I would use?


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## mbsmcmillan (Feb 26, 2021)

jackz4000 said:


> Here this may help you:
> 
> The 'Fair Use' Rule: When Use of Copyrighted Material Is Acceptable
> 
> ...


The website seems to no longer exist


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

mbsmcmillan said:


> The website seems to no longer exist


This is a thread from 2011. A lot can change in ten years.


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## JA Wallace (Feb 20, 2021)

Richardcrasta said:


> Hi,
> Does anyone know if this famous poem is still in copyright, and whether quoting 2 lines from it would require permission?
> 
> Sorry, taking a chance that someone might know offhand. Couldn't find the info easily on the Net.
> ...


Book titles are not subject to copyright and it appears poem titles are not either. I would verify this, of course.


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