# Frank Herbert's Dune; science fiction or fantasy?



## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

I have always been fascinated by the fineness of the line between science fiction and fantasy.

In Frank Herbert's Dune, Arrakis has all the hallmarks of a fantasy world - but what about the earth-like weaponry (lasguns and atomics), and the Atreides' hereditary links back to the house of Agamemnon?

What other books blur the line between these genres?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Science Fantasy.

In my opinion, both the Darkover and Pern books also fall into the Science Fantasy category.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

A lot of Roger Zelazny's work blurs the boundaries. The Amber books are pretty clearly fantasy, yet there are aspects to them that seem like science fiction. _Lord of Light_, on the other hand, is science fiction, yet has a distinct fantasy feel to it. _Eye of Cat_ and _Roadmarks_ are a couple others of his that come to mind.

Charles Stross's "Laundry" series is a cross between near-future scifi/techno-thriller and Lovecrfatian fantasy/horror.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

PS: Your mentioning of _Lord Valentine's Castle_ in another thread reminded me that it, too, had a bit of a fantasy feel in a sci-fi novel.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Warren Dean said:


> What other books blur the line between these genres?


Probably most sf books written. Time travel, ESP, FTL travel, etc. could all be called fantasy elements commonly used in science fiction stories. Many would argue that sf is a sub-genre of fantasy. I wouldn't say they are wrong. And then there are the people would use the term speculative fiction (with some justification).

I'd call _Dune_ science fiction, but my use of the term is very, very loose.

Mike


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

NogDog said:


> PS: Your mentioning of _Lord Valentine's Castle_ in another thread reminded me that it, too, had a bit of a fantasy feel in a sci-fi novel.


That's an interesting observation, Nogdog, I had Lord Valentine's Castle firmly pegged as fantasy.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

_Dune_ is absolutely hard science-fiction, with a solid, almost academic in places, attempt to build and describe a completely alien ecology. I'm no great fan of the novel if I'm being honest, but it is to science-fiction what _Lord of the Rings_ is to fantasy. There undoubtedly are books that blur the line between science-fiction and fantasy, but _Dune_ is nowhere near the top of that list, if it appears at all. It's a bit like dismissing _Hitch-Hiker's Guide_ as a comedy novel when in actual fact it throws away more solid SF ideas than some writers get in a lifetime.

There is very little that is actually science-fiction about, for example, the entire _Star Wars_ franchise. George Lucas tried to bring more of a SF edge to the prequel trilogy (midi-chlorians, cloning), and look how that turned out...


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 7, 2010)

While it's been a long time (decades) since reading the series I'd place Dune in the science fiction camp. Folding space, personal shields, spice, etc., while 'fantastic' aren't presented as magical, rather technology or science based.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I liked _Dune_ well enough. Interesting world. Interesting mythology/religion. Intriguing characters -- you wanted to learn "so, what's with this guy?"

Then I read the next one . . . . much more political and it felt like just more of the same long story. By the third one I was bored -- the people weren't, for me, very interesting any longer, and I wasn't interested in picayune details of the politics of a non-existant place.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I liked _Dune_ well enough. Interesting world. Interesting mythology/religion. Intriguing characters -- you wanted to learn "so, what's with this guy?"
> 
> Then I read the next one . . . . much more political and it felt like just more of the same long story. By the third one I was bored -- the people weren't, for me, very interesting any longer, and I wasn't interested in picayune details of the politics of a non-existant place.


I've not read the sequels after hearing quite a lot of people voice similar sentiments. They're big books to not enjoy. If I'm going to read a disappointing book, I'd prefer it to weigh in under 300 pages!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

alawston said:


> _Dune_ is absolutely hard science-fiction, with a solid, almost academic in places, attempt to build and describe a completely alien ecology. I'm no great fan of the novel if I'm being honest, but it is to science-fiction what _Lord of the Rings_ is to fantasy. There undoubtedly are books that blur the line between science-fiction and fantasy, but _Dune_ is nowhere near the top of that list, if it appears at all. It's a bit like dismissing _Hitch-Hiker's Guide_ as a comedy novel when in actual fact it throws away more solid SF ideas than some writers get in a lifetime.
> 
> There is very little that is actually science-fiction about, for example, the entire _Star Wars_ franchise. George Lucas tried to bring more of a SF edge to the prequel trilogy (midi-chlorians, cloning), and look how that turned out...


Yes, a lot of thought went into _Dune_, no question about it. When I first read it (probably around the original paperback issue?), I simply considered it to be science fiction. Decades later, my most recent re-read (when it came out on Kindle), it struck me a lot more as having a sort of fantasy element: amazing mind abilities for which there is no logical explanations with known scientific principles, a feudal system that is interplanetary in expanse, a "messiah" showing up amid a religion of sorts (with a lot of middle Eastern influences, by the way). It all still makes for a great story with a lot more meat on it that a lot of science fiction, but it's not, to me, "hard" science fiction; and it does have a sort of fantasy _feel_ to it -- but I'd still put it on the SF shelf, no question about it. 

On a side note, one of my sisters wrote a master's thesis on the religious aspects of _Dune_.


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

It's true that the sequels weren't as engaging as the original, but I still thought Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune were fascinating stories.



On another note, how does one pigeonhole Terry Brooks' Shannara books? The early ones had the feel (to borrow NogDog's terminology) of pure fantasy, but the more recent ones edge the series into science fiction territory.

Perhaps this is why science fiction/fantasy are often grouped together.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Warren Dean said:


> It's true that the sequels weren't as engaging as the original, but I still thought Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune were fascinating stories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Part of my personal solution is that I don't worry about it. I'm sure authors/publishers worry about it, because they want to be able to target the "right" set of readers, but my SF&F tastes are pretty broad (if picky): I don't look specifically for epic fantasy, hard SF, urban fantasy, space opera, etc....I just look for anything within the broader genres (I guess "speculative fiction" is as good as anything) and try to find good stories.


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## Don DeBon (Jun 18, 2016)

The general definition (at least I hear and how Analog defines Science Fiction) is if you remove the technology part from the story and it doesn't work, then it is Science Fiction.

Being that dune is all about the technology (star ships, folding space, galactic empire etc) if you remove those elements. not much would be left.  Certainly a story that would not work in anyway, shape, or form.

If someone hated the term "science fiction" you could use "speculative fiction" instead which includes fantasy.  Which I personally dislike.  If I hear "fantasy" I tend to think The Hobbit, or something with a middle ages type feel.  And I suspect this is the general consensus.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Don DeBon said:


> The general definition (at least I hear and how Analog defines Science Fiction) is if you remove the technology part from the story and it doesn't work, then it is Science Fiction.


I've never heard of this definition before, but it is gosh-darned clever and probably correct.


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## Joseph J Bailey (Jun 28, 2013)

There are quite a few books that I have enjoyed that blend the two genres.

A few of my favorites are:

_The Gunslinger_ by Stephen King
_Stranger in a Strange_ Land by Heinlein
Most _Shannara_ books by Brooks
_The Book of the New Sun_ by Wolfe
_Glory Road_ by Heinlein
_Hyperion_ by Simmons

While not exactly magic and science fiction, I love the _Dresden Files_ by Butcher for their blend of magic with present, everdyay technology.

There are quite a few others listed here:

_https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/5409.Books_With_The_Best_Blend_Of_Sci_fi_and_Fantasy_


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

Aha, someone else who thinks the Shannara series is a blend! Otherland, one of my favourite series, is a good example of how it can be done to great effect, I think.



Interesting list, Joseph. It makes me think that, within the broader speculative fiction genre, three subgenres should be recognised; sci-fi, fantasy, and books that blend the two. The question is, what shall we call our new creation? Nominations on a postcard, please... (or on this thread if you have none handy!).


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## MarkdownFanatic (Jan 14, 2014)

An alien substance that slows or stops aging, provides prescience, and enables access all your forebears' memories - and morphs you into a fish if you use it too much. How? Herbert doesn't even try to provide an explanation, let alone a connection to any known scientific facts. 

Anti-G that doubles as repelling "shield" fields - and cause "sub-atomic fusion" if hit by a laser beam. How? No explanation. 

Space travel at "translight" speeds. How? Nope, not even a token rationale. 

Human "mentats" who can hold and process more data in their heads than a computer - well, you see, they've been training their minds. Well, YOU see, mankind in our age has been fiddling with mnemonics for millennia, and we still don't have a reliable way to make the average person able to remember a shopping list. 

Herbert dreams up an awe-inspiring OTHERNESS in "Dune", but all the sexy stuff is magic - never explained. It's a great yarn, but it doesn't blur any lines between sci-fi and fantasy - it's every bit as much fantasy as LOTR, just in a less fairytale-like environment.


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## Mskeakelso (Jun 27, 2016)

Interesting thought - I love the Dune books, but always thought of them as sci-fi - didn't realise I was a fantasy reader! Aren't sci-fi books often set in an imagined world too?


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## Don DeBon (Jun 18, 2016)

Well not so much as a fish (although I agree the books do make that comparison) but enlarges the brain and mutates the rest.  Usually with magic it is much more straight forward type of change rather than "overuse this mutagenic compound and you will change."  That sounds more like Sci-Fi to me.

As for spaceflight, hmm I thought it was by space folding or creating a wormhole with one's mind.  Or a form of mental teleport by the use of a spacers guild member that has mutated and can open/do such warps.  Which again happened due to a mutagenic compound.  On the other aspect of it, would you not call Star Trek science fiction?  Or Star Wars?  Both of them have mental abilities (telepathy even if not called that) that are not explained other than it developed or was natural to the race.  Granted, in Dune it is far stronger but the core idea is the same.

Also about the "mentats" and training of minds.  You left out the juice that mutates them (and stains their lips), they are not only training their minds but changing them.  Much like the spice.  If they were only training that is something else.  Of course one might say not all use the juice, but then again who is to say that SOME humans didn't evolve more, or had a innate, specially cultivated, ability.  It is mentioned that not everyone could become a mentat, that is why they were so highly prized.  So they were not the "average person" in the slightest.  Also we might have been "fiddling with mnemonics for millennia" but there have been many "dark ages" throughout our history where knowledge was lost.  If you omit those, who knows how different things might be today.

As for not explaining the shield, you would prefer a info dump?  Enough info is given to simulate the mind and give the reader the ability to fill in the blanks.  The shield was not a worn pendant, charged with the blood of a unicorn.  It was more science and technology based.  Which again, if you remove the technology and you don't have a story, generally it is Science Fiction.  I know it is debatable due to Herbert's unique style, but in the end, even if everything is not explained in detail, the feel is technological not magic.


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

The posts on this thread illustrate the point, I think. There is a very fine line between sci-fi and fantasy sometimes, and often categorizing books can be quite subjective.

Any ideas on our new genre name?  I was thinking "Fantasci", but that isn't very imaginative.


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## Don DeBon (Jun 18, 2016)

Generally, the term "Speculative Fiction" is used as a all inclusive category.  Although I dislike the term myself.


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

Yip, surely we can do better than that!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

While it's really not all that important to me what you classify it as, I personally have no problem calling it science fiction. However, I will dispute with anyone who thinks it is _hard_ science fiction. It's still a great story with a beautifully detailed rendering, but there is very little in it that I would consider truly scientific. I might give Herbert a partial pass on some of the ESP-like stuff, since when it was written there were a handful of academic studies (now pretty much all debunked, and not all that convincing even bach then) suggesting such things might be possible.

I'm fine leaving it in SF, along with other "soft" SF that is still a great read (or viewing, such as "Star Wars").


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## Don DeBon (Jun 18, 2016)

While I am sure we could come up with something better, inertia is against us and I very much doubt any change would stick.



NogDog said:


> While it's really not all that important to me what you classify it as, I personally have no problem calling it science fiction. However, I will dispute with anyone who thinks it is _hard_ science fiction. It's still a great story with a beautifully detailed rendering, but there is very little in it that I would consider truly scientific. I might give Herbert a partial pass on some of the ESP-like stuff, since when it was written there were a handful of academic studies (now pretty much all debunked, and not all that convincing even bach then) suggesting such things might be possible.
> 
> I'm fine leaving it in SF, along with other "soft" SF that is still a great read (or viewing, such as "Star Wars").


Oh I agree, it is not "hard" but in general Science Fiction is soft unless it is in the "hard" category which is why that classification was started. Hard Science Fiction tends to be more "info dump" as everything is explained (not necessarily all, but a lot of them do) in high detail. Great for the geeks, but not so much the average reader who is more interested in the story itself. I enjoy both.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Warren Dean said:


> It's true that the sequels weren't as engaging as the original, but I still thought Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune were fascinating stories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bingo. Worldcon and the Hugos lump the two together without trying to differentiate.

I, too, enjoyed the first book but found the sequels boring. The movie was way too gruesome for my taste.

I like stories that blur this distinction. Love Darkover and Pern. And Star Wars.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk


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## Warren Dean (May 10, 2015)

May The Force be with you, Cherise...


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