# How invested are you (financially)?



## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

I was just wondering what people thought about the potential cost of being a new author after reading the thread on paying for an editor. It seems to me that if you buy all the right things, even without getting the best, you can still spend a thousand dollars or more (yikes!) just to get the ball rolling. 

Cover art
Professional editing
P.O Box for mailing list
Website
Advertising
Etc.

The costs can add up pretty quickly. I am lucky in that my wife is a professional editor as part of her job, so having her edit my work saves a lot of money (even if she isn't a fiction editor). I've tried to do everything else on the cheap, as a matter of principle. As soon as we start spending money then it becomes a game of "recoup the costs".  

If I get lucky and make some money, then maybe we'll invest that into future works, but there is the catch-22 of getting started. Sales are hard to get if you have a poorly edited book with bad cover art and no advertising or marketing. What does everybody think? I personally wouldn't write if I didn't have something to say, so money isn't the only reason for doing it, but we'd all like to make a little money right?


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## nico (Jan 17, 2013)

We spend several times your stated amount on a novel, including detailed editing, photography, cover design, advertising, etc. In fact, we'd like to do more (hire a second editor), but our sales don't quite allow it yet. Here's hoping some day!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hi!  I have no answer to your question.  But I do have a recommendation.  Read all the posts by Blakebooks on here, and listen to the podcast he did.
He is very insightful.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks. I'll look for it and check it out.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2014)

Self-publishing is an investment.  A lot of people can't afford it or they skip steps they shouldn't skip.  

*I* do this because I'm willing to invest the money to get started.  If I wasn't willing to spend money, I wouldn't do it. 

Will I make the money back?  I'm confident I will.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Weeeeeellll... I think it takes a shift in mindset.  If writing is more of a hobby, consider the cost of hiring professional editing, covers, website, etc. akin to the cost of hobbies you would never blink an eye putting money into.  It is about investing money into something which brings you joy.  It is like how someone who is a miniature railroad enthusiast buys the perfect little buildings and landscaping.  Or a gear-head and the investment in classic car parts.  Or an airplane enthusiast who spends a couple hundred dollars to take the whole family to the air show and buy souvenirs.  I'd even say that publishing a book is cheaper than a week's trip for a family of four to Disney World.  And the cool thing is that this hobby does have the ability to return on the investment.  Plus, how about that joy of seeing something you've written published for all of posterity?  How can you put a price tag on that happiness?

But it sounds like you would like to make this more of a business than a hobby.  And again, I would just compare the cost of setting up a global publishing company devoted to the singular, branded product of you and your talents to the real world model of opening a local restaurant or a coffee shop or a physical bookshop.  For those, you need tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Those businesses usually go bankrupt in their first year.  If not the first year, by year five.  And yet this self-publishing business which does have a couple thousand dollars worth of start-up costs and does require an investment if you want to play in the big leagues WILL provide passive income until seventy years after your death.  Looking at it from that angle, it is one of the lowest cost, safest global businesses a person can start up.  This will be year four into my publishing adventure, which started off with a single book which was rejected by agents and publishers for five years before I self-published, and it looks like I will make my first six-figure income.  Do I work as hard as a small business owner?  Yes.  Do I invest my money in my own product?  Yes.  But I have a good product, a professional presentation, and it turns out that I am a wise business investment.  How cool is that?  All these years working for other people, it turns out I'm my own widget!  Do people fail at this business?  All the time.  They may have a faulty product, they may have a substandard product, they may be unwilling to adapt to changes in the market, luck and the algorithms might just be against them.  There's a million different reasons why it might not work out... just like that mom 'n pop restaurant that opens and closes every year in every small town in America.  It's the reality of small business ownership.  But, from my experience, if you are a good writer producing compelling stories, packaging it in a professional manner, and advertising it smartly, the possibility of success is a lot higher and safer than other small business risks a person can take.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Here is a link to the podcast I was thinking of.
http://rockingselfpublishing.com/episode-39-writing-entrepreneurial-venture-russell-blake-2/#listen


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## JV (Nov 12, 2013)

This is one of the reasons I went down the trade pub route. I have zero dollars invested in my projects (unless you count time...but I'm talking literal dollars). There are many reasons I went the trade pub route, but this is a pretty big one. 

I will say this, if you're going to do it, then do it right. A lot of people put out these sort of half *** products, trying to pinch pennies, and it usually doesn't go well for them. You definitely want to put your best foot forward.


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

We ended up at about $1200.00 for the first book. Rough breakdown below.

LLC creation and taxes: $400.00
Editing: $700.00
Paid ads so far: $40.00
Other odds and ends: $60.00

I do the covers and formatting so we get a break there. Also, we used Godaddy for our website. They have tools to help you put a site together (rather limiting at the base level but something to start with). 
For us the elephant in the room is the editing but it's a crucial part of making a finished product, so we accept it.

Our philosophy on spending has been, "It's not a bad thing to invest in yourself and the things you love."

Good luck, spend wisely.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I budget about $1200 per book to get to publication.

That's an investment in the book and the reading experience for the reader, of course, but it's also an investment in me. I learn a lot every time I go through the editing process. I already have above-average grammar skills, but with each edit, I learn more about word order, when to break the rules, trusting the reader to get what I am saying without being too overt about it, etc.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

As much love as goes into the writing of my books, I treat the final product as a business and than means investing / re-investing to ensure it is the best it can be.


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## kwest (Mar 16, 2013)

Take it from me, as someone who used to not invest much in my books, that it will bite you in the butt later, especially if you suddenly take off. There's no reason to get reviews for bad editing or typos. Pay the money and at least hire a copy-editor or two. Find beta readers with an eye for detail to hunt for typos. I didn't do this for my first book and it got bad reviews early on that no longer apply to the now properly edited version of the book.  But will readers know that, at first glance? Of course not.

I  thought I was good enough to edit my own stuff. I couldn't have been more wrong! Many things you can learn to do yourself (like formatting), but if you're not as good as professional, then hire a professional.

For the record, all my books are properly edited now. But people still see those bad reviews and it primes them to think that my book is bad when it really isn't. I'm also used to getting reviews saying things along the lines of, "I thought this book wasn't going to be good, but it actually was." It's really annoying, but I have nothing but myself to blame. I wanted to save a buck, but in the end, it has probably cost me more.

Trust me, it's not worth it. Be willing to pay whatever money is necessary to make your book the best it can be. Err on the side of caution. My reviews are fine on other vendors, because by the time I published there, my book was properly edited.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I have to count for a three book novella serial as a whole because costs were shared among them for different things (like publicity). So, for all three:

Covers $520 (artist plus the cost of the photos used)
Editing $1100
Copy-editing $625 (estimate as books 2 and 3 haven't gone to CE yet)
Publicity $410 plus 
Prizes for blog tours, contests etc. $150
Formatting: $260
So just around $3,000 for three 25k+/- word novellas or about a thousand bucks each. And I have to say, there isn't a penny there I wouldn't consider well spent.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

My first book cost around $3000. I looked at it as a major investment in my future, and wanted to put out the best product possible. The biggest expense was editing, which cost around $2000 (for two editors). The rest went to cover art, formatting, and misc. Strangely, I didn't spent a cent on advertising. My goal was always to publish 3 books in the same series, THEN start putting money into advertising.

These days, it probably costs about $1500 for me to push out a new book, thanks to improvement in writing by moi, and a better understanding of the talent out there. I could probably shave off a few hundred more here and there with more research, but I like where I'm at now.

P.S. I made back my $3K investment on the first book by the end of the first month. The sequel paid for itself in less than its first week.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

> P.S. I made back my $3K investment on the first book by the end of the first month. The sequel paid for itself in less than its first week.


I suppose it's all relative. At my current pace, I'd need 20 years to make $3k dollars, so...


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

jackcrows said:


> My first book cost around $3000. I looked at it as a major investment in my future, and wanted to put out the best product possible. The biggest expense was editing, which cost around $2000 (for two editors). The rest went to cover art, formatting, and misc. Strangely, I didn't spent a cent on advertising. My goal was always to publish 3 books in the same series, THEN start putting money into advertising.
> 
> These days, it probably costs about $1500 for me to push out a new book, thanks to improvement in writing by moi, and a better understanding of the talent out there. I could probably shave off a few hundred more here and there with more research, but I like where I'm at now.
> 
> P.S. I made back my $3K investment on the first book by the end of the first month. The sequel paid for itself in less than its first week.


Jack, what genre do you write in? I know I've seen you mention it before, I can't recall.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Depending on how much editing costs, mine'll be around $7500 by the time I publish. But I'm doing some silly stuff to self-indulge. I'm not expecting to make it back.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

A.C. Scott said:


> I was just wondering what people thought about the potential cost of being a new author after reading the thread on paying for an editor. It seems to me that if you buy all the right things, even without getting the best, you can still spend a thousand dollars or more (yikes!) just to get the ball rolling.
> 
> Cover art
> Professional editing
> ...


How many other businesses can you really start well for $1000? Not many. Self-publishing has one of the lowest bars to entry of any business out there.

However, if this is strictly a hobby, then yeah, it could seem expensive.

I look at it as a business and upfront costs are an investment in that business. I also budget money in for marketing too, and the money I spent there resulted in enough sales to cover all of the upfront costs for the books and the marketing, so after month one, it's all profit.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Or you could just say screw it and not spend any money.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

von19 said:


> Or you could just say screw it and not spend any money.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


And this my dear children is a good way to wind up in the Amazon million club.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> Jack, what genre do you write in? I know I've seen you mention it before, I can't recall.


SF/Fantasy/Action. Hard to pin down, mostly because I don't like to limit myself.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> I suppose it's all relative. At my current pace, I'd need 20 years to make $3k dollars, so...


I got extremely lucky, yes.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MeganBryce said:


> Well, yes, you can spend a lot if you want. But you don't have to. This is my business, I treat it as such, but my first thought is to be like McDonalds. Control costs. Don't cut costs that will increase revenue, but control them. If spending money will make me more, I'm all for it. If it won't... I'm a hard sell.
> ...
> I guess my point is no, you don't have to spend thousands. I wouldn't, especially for a first book from a first time writer, but there are lots of examples on this board where they did and it worked out fantastically for them. You have to do what makes you comfortable and what will help you reach your goals.


Great insights, thanks for sharing them. I largely agree. Do what works best for you and your goals.

I just finished my first 5-year business plan (finally!) and like others, will be starting off modestly. Looking at the long game and starting off with slow, steady growth.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm going to go against the grain here. It's great to be able to invest thousands of dollars in your books; but I've seen a lot of people spend thousands of dollars on "all the right things", be hybrid authors with trad pub deals behind them, and have sales lower than mine (I usually hang out around the 60,000 rank).

Here is what I did. I spent $15 on my first short story, Murphy's Star, for stock art--I'm a graphic designer-techie by trade so the cover design I did myself. My mother did editing--she's a technical editor, not a fiction editor. A few friends read the story for me for plot. The first month I made about $30...and then sales went down from there. 

Next, I wrote the first part of my series. I spent $0 on cover art, just used illustrations I did and public domain imagery. It was a very bad cover. It still sold enough though that I was able to earn enough money for better stock art.

I wrote my second and third in series. I made enough to splurge on a BookBub promo, from my proceeds.

For the most recent installment of my series I had enough money in the bank to invest in a professional fiction editor--so I did. It was worth the investment; I learned a lot from the experience. But I was able to pay for the experience with my earnings, not a loan from our retirement savings.

I see a lot of people say, "Wouldn't you expect to invest tens of thousands of dollars in any business?" I've worked in tech for a lot of years, and quite frankly, I can usually tell which are going to succeed because they start off with a product that's good, and slowly build up to external investments like marketing, fancy website, etc. I can kind of tell which start-ups will fail based on their emphasis on appearances vs. product.

I think it's okay not to have a fancy website. I think it's okay to not have the best cover. It will turn some people away, but you'll still be able to get some reviews and see if this writing thing has legs for you. I think you need to see if you have a story that (some) people will read and enjoy before anything else...and then make the big investments.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Here's the thing: you can approach your writing career in two ways -- either spend as little as possible and hope for the best, or invest as much as you're able, and try to increase your odds. I did the latter, but only because I could afford to. I've made enough money from my day job (I've been self-employed for the last decade or so) to be able to withstand making nothing from my writing for a year and then some. 

But that's my situation. I'm fortunate. I totally understand people who can't afford to invest in their writing in the beginning. As I said in another thread, it's pretty common for writers to launch a series without proper editing, but sell enough that they could THEN afford editing. It happens every day, so I wouldn't be discourage if you can't afford to invest now. If your work is good enough, it should, theoretically, get noticed and sell.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> And this my dear children is a good way to wind up in the Amazon million club.


Debatable. But ok.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

jackcrows said:


> Here's the thing: you can approach your writing career in two ways -- either spend as little as possible and hope for the best, or invest as much as you're able, and try to increase your odds. I did the latter, but only because I could afford to. I've made enough money from my day job (I've been self-employed for the last decade or so) to be able to withstand making nothing from my writing for a year and then some.
> 
> But that's my situation. I'm fortunate. I totally understand people who can't afford to invest in their writing in the beginning. As I said in another thread, it's pretty common for writers to launch a series without proper editing, but sell enough that they could THEN afford editing. It happens every day, so I wouldn't be discourage if you can't afford to invest now. If your work is good enough, it should, theoretically, get noticed and sell.


I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think you can shop around for deals, as well as spend when you need to. I was willing to pay over a grand for a custom cover, but I found a premade one I thought was perfect for my WIP for $30. Just because you have the means, doesn't mean you have to spend it. The one place I wouldn't skimp is editing.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

This topic comes up on a weekly basis.

I spend $1000-$1200 per book. Have from day one. Why?

Because taking a stock photo and slapping some crap fonts on it doesn't a compelling product make. Because if I expect to be taken seriously in a genre where many of the authors can write well, I need pro editing. I then need to have it proofed, and formatted. I could probably spend time learning how to format for MOBI and Smashwords and Apple, but I have other things to do with my time.

I was about $15K in the red when my 11th book took off. I made that back in under a month, at month number seven of publishing.

I've started a number of companies. Exactly zero required no investment. My belief is that if you want a pro publishing company that can make you a nice living, you need to invest, exactly as in every other business. True, you can do-it-yourself everything and hope for the best,  but my considerable business experience says that's an incredibly foolish approach if you want to do more than sell a book here and there.

There are millions of books on Amazon. What will make yours beat the odds and sell well? Probably not how cheaply you were able to get it out the door. The only person who cares about that is you, and frankly, "how much was the author/publisher able to save by cutting corners" doesn't rank high on reader criteria for book selection.

Or don't listen to the countless folks who sell well and share their time here, and cheap out on as much as possible. Then start your "Why isn't my book selling" thread and get commiseration, which I've found to be a poor substitute for cash.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

> I was about $15K in the red when my 11th book took off. I made that back in under a month, at month number seven of publishing.


So what you are saying is that you threw thousands of dollars on the gambling table and it _happened_ to work out for you. I'm breaking into a niche market where I will never gain mainstream appeal no matter how good the work is (extreme outliers like 50SOG not withstanding). Even if I sold a thosuand copies to make my money back, how many more would I sell after that?

I have learned one valuable thing so far though: most of the people on here take the business aspect of this very seriously. Some of us are expressing ourselves while trying to make a few bucks on the side, not trying to build a "global publishing empire."


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## Shaun Dowdall (Mar 8, 2013)

I think you need to treat it as a business, but one you love. Don't turn it into a money making factory, but treat it professional. You would like to think the big manufactures out there wouldn't put a new line of product out for sale without testing it etc.

For me I've just gotten through producing my first novel. It is currently being formatted and then it is ready for sale. At a number of times I almost skipped services, editing for example. In hindsight, every little thing I have paid for and utilised has given me a better understanding of the process and made my novel a lot stronger.

Everyone will be different but I do believe an investment is needed.


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## nico (Jan 17, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> I have learned one valuable thing so far though: most of the people on here take the business aspect of this very seriously. Some of us are expressing ourselves while trying to make a few bucks on the side, not trying to build a "global publishing empire."


I think it's cool that there are a bunch of people on this board, all with different goals and all willing to share their perspectives, approaches, etc. Our goals are a) write great books people love to read and b) make a modest living off of it. But since we have goal #2, we take this seriously as a business and therefore invest in the highest quality stuff we can afford at the moment.

If you don't want to invest in the business aspects of writing, then that's fine. Hobbies are great. But if you expect to turn people into readers and ultimately fans, well, there's lots of competition out there for people's attention...


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> So what you are saying is that you threw thousands of dollars on the gambling table and it _happened_ to work out for you. I'm breaking into a niche market where I will never gain mainstream appeal no matter how good the work is (extreme outliers like 50SOG not withstanding). Even if I sold a thosuand copies to make my money back, how many more would I sell after that?
> 
> I have learned one valuable thing so far though: most of the people on here take the business aspect of this very seriously. Some of us are expressing ourselves while trying to make a few bucks on the side, not trying to build a "global publishing empire."


It's about investment. How long do you want to keep doing this? If it's just for fun and kicks, and maybe make enough to buy a diner out with the missus every now and then, I don't see why you need to spend more than a few bucks on a book. You could, potentially, do everything yourself. It's easy enough to learn.

But IF you want to do this 5, 10 years from now, and leave a legacy for your family, then yes, you do need to look at its as a business venture. I pour my creativity out into the books, but after that, it's all business.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

My takeaway is this...if you want to try out some quick buck stuff, go ahead. Use a pen name that's not your normal one. There's always the chance something will catch fire. But for the things you think may really be special? Skip meals, cut coupons, and do anything you can to reduce all friction between the pages of that book and the readers.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

Here is my real problem. Everybody seems to assume that the thousands of dollars will all be recouped. What about all the people who spent the money, failed, and then don't come to message boards to tell their side of the story, like the 95% of new small businesses that fail?

Personally I think spending all this money to publish one book is ridiculous when you have no idea if it will be a success.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

That's the nature of capitalism. People spending this kind of money are generally determined to make it work, come he77 or high water! If its just a hobby, there are places you can post for free, like Wattpad. But are you wanting this to be a hobby?


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

AC Scott: Having built a number of successful start-ups, I can assure you that investment is one of the ways you distinguish placing bets on a gaming table and building a sustainable career in a competitive field. I had decided early on that this business would be like all others, and would require investment for the first 12-18 months. So I budgeted what I thought it would take to be successful at it, just as with any business plan. I wasn't interested in building a hobby that might or might not make money. I was interested in building a sustainable publishing company. Your goals might well be different, and that's fine.

Your perspective doesn't mirror my experience building successful sustainable businesses. "Taking a punt at the tables" is called gambling. While there's an element of gamble in every start-up, one tries to eliminate it to the extent one can, often through investment, product quality, long hours, and mastering all the nuances of the market.

Or one can throw something unedited up on Amazon with some free fonts and see how that works in rising above the other couple million books. I'm not concerned with how well everyone else does, rather how well I do, so you're free to try whatever you like. I'm just describing what worked for me, now on my third successful start-up.

All businesses entail risk. Most businesses fail. In this, as in all things. Dismissing intelligent investment in one's business because countless other businesses invested intelligently and failed misses the point, which is about how to improve your odds of succeeding. You may not see the wisdom of investing in your business, and that's fine. The market will reward your approach, or punish it. Arguing about what's a good approach is fascinating, but I don't know a lot of successful businesses where the management refused to invest in the business, considering it foolish - perhaps there are tons, but I haven't seen any. I do, however, know plenty of successful authors, and they all share my perspective, whereas 100% of those who advance the notion that you shouldn't invest in your business have had a paucity of success. Could just be coincidence.


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## JeanetteRaleigh (Jan 1, 2013)

For a long time I wouldn't buy stock photos for covers.  I was intimidated by both the price and what rights to buy.  Finally after reading a post by, yes, Russell blake   that basically said to look professional at every level, I decided I needed to make a change.

Long story short, I'm glad I paid for the photos to have great covers.  There is no guarantee that a book will sell, great cover or no, but it's pretty much guaranteed that a book WON'T sell if it has a bad cover.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Here is the main thing.  If I so desired, I could write a book, spend nothing on it and there is a 99% chance that it would be horrible and not make a dime.  Or I could spend a little money and have a better chance of making some money.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I'm going to go against the grain here. It's great to be able to invest thousands of dollars in your books; but I've seen a lot of people spend thousands of dollars on "all the right things", be hybrid authors with trad pub deals behind them, and have sales lower than mine (I usually hang out around the 60,000 rank).
> 
> Here is what I did. I spent $15 on my first short story, Murphy's Star, for stock art--I'm a graphic designer-techie by trade so the cover design I did myself. My mother did editing--she's a technical editor, not a fiction editor. A few friends read the story for me for plot. The first month I made about $30...and then sales went down from there.
> 
> ...


I agree that, if you don't have the funds, this is a solid plan of attacking the issue. I would add, though, that (short of the lightning in a bottle outlier) this would typically make the process move slower for the author to move from hobby to profession or business. I am TOTALLY on board with people who write as a way to supplement their income and afford a little vacation every year or to get the voices out of their head and have a creative outlet. But the approach I would take to achieve that outcome is very different than the one I would (and did) take to make writing my business. 
I guess what I'm saying to the OP is, no. You don't have to spend money to self-publish. But, IMO, you should IF YOU CAN, and the people that do pitted against the people that don't will win in a footrace to financial success almost every time in the long term. Again, this isn't taking away from everyone who can't or chooses not to or authors who aren't in it for the money. That's each author's personal decision. I do, however, think readers know the difference between a professionally edited and packaged book and one that has not had the same treatment. Does it have to be PERFECT? GORGEOUS? EXPENSIVE? No. Not for me, at least. But it has to look tight and clean and professional.

From a reader perspective, if I read a blurb that is clearly unedited (and there are MANY MANY out there) and the cover looks shoddy, I would logically assume the contents are the equivalent. If the author can't take the time to produce a professional package, and edit a 200 word blurb, I certainly can't take the time to read that 40k (and likely error-riddled) book. Just my .02.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Here is the main thing. If I so desired, I could write a book, spend nothing on it and there is a 99% chance that it would be horrible and not make a dime. Or I could spend a little money and have a better chance of making some money.


It doesn't sound to me like the OP is saying he won't spend a little money. His argument is that it doesn't make sense to spend $1000+ on a book in a genre where he's unlikely to sell enough to make that money back.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I was doing pretty good until I started adding illustrations to my books - that adds up fast.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Well now from all I have read here $1000 is a little money for a book.  And much less than any other business I could start.
This is why I am not writing a book.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Leebee: Put that way, sure. But let's start with covers. You can get pretty decent premades for $50. Is that too big an investment? If so, fine. But I wouldn't be writing in a genre where I was unlikely to recoup $50. So then, how about editing? Not sure how long the OP's book is, but let's say 50K. Could he find someone to edit it competently for...$250-$350? Probably. 

I think it depends on one's goals. If the goal is to get something uploaded to Amazon for as close to no money as possible, that's a different goal with different outcomes than building a successful, sustainable publishing business.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

To the OP, you mention writing niche, and then FSoG being an outlier in that niche genre as far as financial success. Are you saying your book is BDSM? Because if so, I would have to say that I wouldn't consider that a niche genre that won't earn out at all. There are hundreds of BDSM erotica authors making a very nice living writing it (one of them is my crit partner who makes back her $1200-1400 investment per book within the first two weeks of sales or faster). And we're not talking BDSM light like 50SoG, or a little saucy slap and tickle. We're talking balls out BDSM, pony play, chastity belts, collared-females in the lifestyle type stuff. I just wanted to mention in case that was the reason you weren't sure whether investing a lot of money would be prudent.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

Covers and editing aren't actually risks, they are things that you can actually pay for to REMOVE risk. I'm not sure there is a business where such a small outflow of capital can do so much to improve your chances to recoup the investment. The ROI on a book cover would be phenomenal. Same for editing, though people don't normally judge a book by its editing until AFTER the purchase. A well made cover helps book one to be a success. Bad editing can guarantee that the next book will be a failure. 

Believe me, it took me awhile to come around. I'm a graphic designer in my day job, like many others. But covers are closer to fine art than making banner ads or web interfaces.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

blakebooks said:


> I think it depends on one's goals. If the goal is to get something uploaded to Amazon for as close to no money as possible, that's a different goal with different outcomes than building a successful, sustainable publishing business.


I agree, but isn't it possible that the OP might be able to building a successful publishing business without starting out with pro-everything? Several authors have commented that they were able to do so, and started to invest more as their books began to make some money.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

A.C. Scott said:


> Here is my real problem. Everybody seems to assume that the thousands of dollars will all be recouped. What about all the people who spent the money, failed, and then don't come to message boards to tell their side of the story, like the 95% of new small businesses that fail?
> 
> Personally I think spending all this money to publish one book is ridiculous when you have no idea if it will be a success.


I see what you're saying, but you have to dress for the job you want. If you were going on a dream job interview would you don sweatpants and a beer-stained t-shirt because that's what you had handy? I would hope not. Would you get your best outfit together, make sure you ironed it to within an inch of its life, polish your best shoes and make sure you looked the best you could? At the very least. That's the minimum I would do. Then there are others who say, "This is the job I want. Do I know I'm going to get it? No. But I believe in myself. I'm going to invest in me, and do everything in my power to make it happen." And then they go and buy a decent new suit with their last $200, get a haircut at Supercuts for another $7, and walk into that interview with as much confidence as they can muster paired with a firm handshake and a smile, and hope like hell it was worth it. That's the camp I'm in. I think it increases my chances of getting that job a hundred fold from option one, and ten-fold from option two. 
There's only one thing on this list of options that seems ridiculous to me, and it sure as heck isn't #3!


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

$1300 to set up LLC (done)
$~500 on contracts (this can wait a while)
$120-ish on website costs for the year (+$60 for Askimet subscription)

For each short, I calculate on the following:
*Edit
*Proof
*Cover

For each novella:
*Edit
*Proof
*Cover
*Advertising/Giveaways (lesser)

For each novel:
*Edit
*Proof
*Cover
*Advertising/Giveaways ("full")

For the shorts - I'm calculating around $100-150 (I have a deal going with my cover artist to do "template" covers, so once I have a short story template established, I can just switch title text each time - this makes sense, as they'll come in specific themes/character sets).

For the novellas - $500-600

For the novels - $1200-1500


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

A.C. Scott said:


> Here is my real problem. Everybody seems to assume that the thousands of dollars will all be recouped. What about all the people who spent the money, failed, and then don't come to message boards to tell their side of the story, like the 95% of new small businesses that fail?
> 
> Personally I think spending all this money to publish one book is ridiculous when you have no idea if it will be a success.


Those small businesses still spend money on advertising/signage/logos and whatnot. They don't go in assuming they'll fail.

I think the comparison would be starting a small business vs. running a stall at a local market - less investment, but a far more limited potential return.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> I agree, but isn't it possible that the OP might be able to building a successful publishing business without starting out with pro-everything? Several authors have commented that they were able to do so, and started to invest more as their books began to make some money.


I agree, LeeBee, I think he can as long as the product is still professional and well done.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

Chrisbwritin said:


> To the OP, you mention writing niche, and then FSoG being an outlier in that niche genre as far as financial success. Are you saying your book is BDSM? Because if so, I would have to say that I wouldn't consider that a niche genre that won't earn out at all. There are hundreds of BDSM erotica authors making a very nice living writing it (one of them is my crit partner who makes back her $1200-1400 investment per book within the first two weeks of sales or faster). And we're not talking BDSM light like 50SoG, or a little saucy slap and tickle. We're talking balls out BDSM, pony play, chastity belts, collared-females in the lifestyle type stuff. I just wanted to mention in case that was the reason you weren't sure whether investing a lot of money would be prudent.


I bet your friend writes M/f. I write F/m. The difference is more staggering than you might think. Many commentators have pointed out that F/m is one of the only BDSM categories that doesn't sell in erotica. I'm not going to write something else in BDSM because F/m is what I know.

I also don't like this idea that you should constantly be trying to break even. That was exactly what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Every time people complain about ads, somebody always says "yeah but if you just break even then you win because of the exposure". Not to mention all the people who pay for ads and don't even get that much.

I would also like to reiterate that I don't agree with the premise that: more money spent -> more sales, as though it's automatically assumed the investment will pay off. Hey that's just capitalism right? As long as we all agree that the plan is to go into debt for 5-10 years giving your books away by blowing the money on publishing the next one so you can _maybe_ be a success in the free market and it will all pay off someday.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

jtbullet said:


> Covers and editing aren't actually risks, they are things that you can actually pay for to REMOVE risk. I'm not sure there is a business where such a small outflow of capital can do so much to improve your chances to recoup the investment. The ROI on a book cover would be phenomenal. Same for editing, though people don't normally judge a book by its editing until AFTER the purchase. A well made cover helps book one to be a success. Bad editing can guarantee that the next book will be a failure.
> 
> Believe me, it took me awhile to come around. I'm a graphic designer in my day job, like many others. But covers are closer to fine art than making banner ads or web interfaces.


That's really interesting, because that's what I've seen. Even a professional graphic artist might not be a professional at creating book covers, and there's a difference. Especially ebook covers--even cover artists who know how to do print books have to re-think for ebooks and audiobooks, because the viewing experience is so different.

To answer the OP's question, my original investment for three books was $1400. $1100 for a professionally designed (value-added) website and Facebook background (which, of course, you could amortize across all my books), $300 for three covers. Now, I spend $200 per book on covers (ebook, print, and audio, including the stock art). A few hundred a month, on average, on marketing--all for ads to promote whatever promo I have going on every six weeks to two months. A little bit for tech support, not much, $50/month or so? That's my investment, but as mentioned in another thread, I was a professional editor, and two of my beta readers were as well, and I get heavy line-editing and developmental-editing help from my betas, as well as proofreading. If I hadn't had that background and help, I'd definitely have paid an editor also.

And I was a copywriter. If I hadn't had that background, I'd probably have paid somebody to help me with my blurbs. Because, similar to the cover thing--even though I had years of successful experience in copywriting, I hadn't written book blurbs before, and it took me a lot of effort, research, and practice to learn to do it well.

I do think your book has to be written to a professional standard, and professionally presented, to have the best shot at succeeding. Even then, obviously, it's not guaranteed, but you've taken out some pretty big obstacles if you've got those two things. Look at the Top 100 in any genre--covers, blurbs, "look inside." My guess is that, in general, whether trad published or indie published, they'll be professionally written and presented, will look and "read" polished.

It's not a guarantee. But NOT doing it is pretty close to a guarantee that you WON'T succeed. IMHO.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I once got hired because I changed clothes before the interview.  It was 30 minutes from turning in the application and the interview.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> I would also like to reiterate that I don't agree with the premise that: more money spent -> more sales, as though it's automatically assumed the investment will pay off. Hey that's just capitalism right? As long as we all agree that the plan is to go into debt for 5-10 years giving your books away by blowing the money on publishing the next one so you can _maybe_ be a success in the free market and it will all pay off someday.


You have obviously dug in on this topic, so I don't see any further point in trying to convince you.

Good luck with your writing ... however you wish to approach it.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

A.C. Scott said:


> I bet your friend writes M/f. I write F/m. The difference is more staggering than you might think. Many commentators have pointed out that F/m is one of the only BDSM categories that doesn't sell in erotica. I'm not going to write something else in BDSM because F/m is what I know.
> 
> I also don't like this idea that you should constantly be trying to break even. That was exactly what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Every time people complain about ads, somebody always says "yeah but if you just break even then you win because of the exposure". Not to mention all the people who pay for ads and don't even get that much.
> 
> I would also like to reiterate that I don't agree with the premise that: more money spent -> more sales, as though it's automatically assumed the investment will pay off. Hey that's just capitalism right? As long as we all agree that the plan is to go into debt for 5-10 years giving your books away by blowing the money on publishing the next one so you can _maybe_ be a success in the free market and it will all pay off someday.


Fem-dom is far less lucrative, from what I've heard, yes. When you mentioned FSoG I assumed it was an apples to apples comparison. That said, naturally, if you don't want to write to market, you're less likely to be financially successful. That's the nature of the beast, which is no problem if this is a solely creative endeavor. The thing that trips me up is that, then you say you don't just want to "break even". So I'm confused by your posts, I guess. Either you're writing because you love it and don't care about making money from it, or you're writing because you love it BUT ALSO want it to be a profitable venture.

If A. then you're doing fine as is. Write what you love, don't dump money into books you've already told yourself aren't going to sell and enjoy the process.

If B. then it's business, and in business, you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to sell snake oil in a rhino horn market. Now that's not to say you can't sell remedies (BDSM) at all, it just means if you want to make money, you have be willing to move a little with the market. I'm not suggesting that you do that. I'm just saying that is what's required if you know the sub-genre you're choosing to write in doesn't move units (which, I'm not saying it doesn't, I have no first hand knowledge of that) and you are trying to make this your business.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

This thread is confusing. The way he's titled it he will only get advice from people who have invested a lot in their books. The people who DIY and are successful, aren't answering this thread. They are out there, especially in erotica and erotica romance.

If I were you, I'd learn to create better covers. I wouldn't sink $2000 into a 20 page erotic short in this lifetime unless I was already making 10k a month writing erotic shorts.

At this moment, your rank isn't particularly bad. It's better than some of the people in this thread who advocated spending a lot of money. That could be because you bought your own book, but I have no way of knowing that.

You can spend only a few bucks and still produce a product that will sell in your genre. You can go from DIY to big time. It happens. But, I've got to say, your cover sucks. You'd sell a lot more books if your cover was more erotic. Your writing style isn't bad. I'm not good at seeing typos, but none jump out at me.

You could put maybe $50 into your books for better stock and a decent proofread and have a better product. Don't be discouraged. But honestly, investing _NOTHING_ is probably not a great idea.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Agreeing with Alf.  New cover please.  The cover with the title screams humor not erotica.


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## Capella (Jan 16, 2014)

Aha! Here I am! The dirty bootstrapper! Editing? I was stupid and decided I didn't need it.  Covers? Look, here are cheap ones! I put out my first two books on $350.  $250 of that was IBSNs. 
I refused to spend more until I knew I could sell. I released two romance novels that were super weird and literary and had no sex in them.  I believe a punchy blurb works wonders.
Anyway, I made good money from those first two books and sunk some of it back into my books.  I got editing (because I read kboards, I've actually never had a complaint about editing) and different covers.  It was now "justified" for me to do so.  For the third and fourth book in my series I spent 125 each on covers.  No editing.  Just me doing drafts.  I set book one perma-free and bookbubbed it and then the others sold.  
I've always held myself to not spending more on the books than I'm making.  I didn't grow up in a supportive 'pursue your art at all costs' family, and I sort of wish I was less harsh on myself in that way.
For the third series, I finally gave myself permission to go all big money with a new pen name and a new genre and a fancy and expensive cover artist.  The cover was expensive and didn't sell, plus I didn't like feeling the pressure of having to make the book sell enough to be 'worth' it.  Anyway, I switched the cover to a cheaper one (who knows, maybe it fit in the genre better?) and it sold better.  Meanwhile I wrote the next two in the series and bought cheaper covers for them to match.  Then I permafreed book 1 and bookbubbed it.  Boom, sales from the rest of the series.
I've been very lucky.  I have a supportive husband who said that he didn't care what it cost or whether he made money, he just wanted me to write.  But I'm the realist (pessimist) in our relationship and due to fears of ending up homeless I gave myself a year to try it, and if it didn't work, back to some awful job no matter what.  I'm lucky that I like writing in a fairly popular genre and that readers put up with my unique spin on things. 
I'm not saying expensive covers and editing aren't worth it.  I'm just saying that for me, each of those little 'spoil myself' moments never ended up doing as much as I thought they would.  Every time I strayed from doing the cheapest, most effective option, I regretted it.  
I thought, wow, if I can do well without those things, think how well I could do with all the fancies! Nope.  No change.
Good covers may up your chances, but what a really good cover needs to do is convey genre. It doesn't need to be the most unique or fancy.  And there are some really cheap ones that do a solid job of that. Some genres are tougher to get covers for, for sure.
But I just think that as long as the cover is professional, as long as you have drafted many times yourself or had someone else (someone qualified), and as long as you write a killer blurb, you've done what you can.
I regret the money spent on custom art.  It didn't increase sales and ended up replaced.
I regret the money on the highest grade covers.  It didn't cover the investment.  But I guess since I had been successful with cheap ones, I'm biased.  Maybe what I really learned was 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. 
I don't regret my bookbub ads.  I've had three and they were tasty. 
I do regret buying all of those isbns, though I used them all. They aren't needed really.
I don't regret buying copyright registrations for all of my books. 
More than any money spent, what helped me was sweat equity (churning out 8 books in one year, writing 10k some days) and being willing to write in a genre that wasn't as literary as my dreams, hoping to one day fund my lofty dreams.  Instead I discovered I love genre writing.  I'm not as literary as I thought.  
So spend if you have it and want to because it makes you feel good.  
If there's one thing that probably is necessary for the majority and helpful for most, it's editing.  I have seen improvement, but I have a very cheaply priced editor.  I use a friend for beta-ing, she catches crazy things and I like supporting her family since they are struggling.  I use another person for proofing.
I'd say now I spend about 200 per book, including cover.  Maybe 250.
Results may vary, and all that.  I still think as a rule you should follow the advice here about editing, covers, etc.  I probably would have done better somewhere between the extravagant spenders and my own skimpiness. But oh well.  Live and learn and I love my job.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

For all the people telling me my cover sucks--I know that. I will eventually replace it with a better (paid) cover, but for now I can't. The reason has nothing to do with spending money vs not spending money. I can't really explain, but that will have to do for now. 

Thanks for taking  a look ALF. I appreciate it.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Capella, what genre(s) do you write in?


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Leebee: Sure. Anything's possible. If the OP feels it's a good business strategy to differentiate his product with a home-made cover and no editing, super. I can point to a few bands where the singer can't sing, the players can't play, and yet they had a hit. Or a guy who drops a quarter into the slots and hits a jackpot.

That doesn't mean it's a good strategy. It just means that sh#t happens. 

I'll stick with my approach and leave the folks advocating investing little or nothing in their biz to their success. My stance is pretty well known by now.

So far, so good.

Steve: I don't advocate spending $ like a drunken sailor. I had to work very hard for every one I have, so I relinquish my hold on them reluctantly. I also spend as little as I prudently can to get the quality of product I think is superior to many of my competitors. I do this not because I'm profligate, but rather because 30 years of operating successful businesses I started from scratch has shown me there are common elements to them all. Responsible investment is one of them. I understand that there are many who want to spend little or nothing, and I don't begrudge them their experiment. It's not my success being hurt, so I have no dog in that fight.


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## ecg52 (Apr 29, 2013)

Sorry, I didn't read all the replies so I apologize if someone already pointed this out. But...

This is a business. I can't think of any business you can start without spending some money. Sure, some businesses have lower start-up costs than others, but you've got to spend something if you plan to succeed. The bright side of this indie-publishing business is that you don't need to rent an office with utilities, phone, and other expenses. You can work at home, save a bundle and even take a deduction for a home office if you follow the strict IRS rules. If you've got a house full of kids however, then you might be better off renting an office.
If all you spent for getting your first book out is $1000, then you got away clean!
Keep writing, keep putting money into your business, and with a little luck, you'll see a nice reward down the road.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> For all the people telling me my cover sucks--I know that. I will eventually replace it with a better (paid) cover, but for now I can't. The reason has nothing to do with spending money vs not spending money. I can't really explain, but that will have to do for now.
> 
> Thanks for taking a look ALF. I appreciate it.


As long as you're happy, it's all good. You are selling books from what I can see.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Must ask what do you mean by cuckolding as the only definition I found was unfaithful.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Must ask what do you mean by cuckolding as the only definition I found was unfaithful.


There are many sub-genres even of cuckolding. Usually though, she isn't actually being unfaithful. Think of it more like swinging, except that only she gets to do it and she dominates the relationship.

There are some cuckolding stories where she really _is_ cheating, but usually they end up with him actually liking it. The guy is always submissive, either all the time or by the end. He never feels 'cheated on' or anything like that, like most people would think of it.

There is a whole niche of black-on-white, but mostly in videos. Sissies. Having the 'bull' have sex with the boyfriend or husband. Chastity. The spectrum is pretty wide open for cuckolding. I write stories where the wife is in control of the relationship and they engage in BDSM activities.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you for the explanation.  Your books sound interesting.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

> If the OP feels it's a good business strategy to differentiate his product with a home-made cover and *no editing*


I'll have you know my wife is a damn fine editor, and she is paid a rather decent salary to coordinate and edit documents during her day job. I defy you to demonstrate that my story is poorly edited. The cover is bad, I'll grant you that, but I wouldn't have published something that was poorly edited.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

I spent quite a bit on my covers. I got a full trilogy done at once, as I wanted a consistent feel and style. I did get a discount for getting all three at once. My cover designer, Jason Gurley, is currently not taking on new commissions, so I'm glad I got all three done. 

I looked around for an editor. I found Felicia Sullivan, who has a strong track record with post - apocalyptic books. I have her booked in for all three books. Based on the sample edit, I'm being charged a low-end rate.

So I think I've saved a bit of money just from my approach (bundle deal on covers, clean self-edited manuscript before editing). It still adds up, though, and the cost is front loaded. 

With respect to recouping costs - time will tell.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

We all agree that the product, i.e. the book, should look professional, but there are different ways to get there and not all of them cost hundreds and thousands of dollars.

First of all, you must determine what is necessary to put out a professional looking product and what would be nice to have, but not vital. Next you need to decide which of those services you can do yourself, which you can barter for and which you must purchase elsewhere. Then take a look at your budget. Will you need to make some investments? Sure. Must you invest hundreds or thousands of dollars? Not necessarily.

When I first tested the indie publishing waters, I was determined not to invest a whole lot of money I might never recoup. So I started small. My first indie published works were a couple of backlist short stories for which I'd gotten the rights back. The stories were already edited, so no editing costs. As for formatting, I found some great formatting guides online and did it myself (still do). My first covers (since replaced) were either public domain artwork or photos I had taken myself. Since I run a different freelance business, I already had the tax and registration stuff settled. The only money I paid upfront was for the domain name and webhosting.

So what do you really need?

1. Editing is crucial. It seems you've got that settled via your wife, which means you're lucky. 
2. Cover. Your cover is not very good and also not really genre appropriate, so that's something you should invest in. Luckily, you don't have to spent hundreds on a commissioned custom cover. You can get some excellent premades for 30 to 50 USD. I'd recommend http://www.goonwrite.com/ He's got lots of erotica covers.
3. Tax, bank, business set-up and registration costs. Can't really be skipped, though costs depend on where you live. I would hire a tax professional, if at all possible (plus they save you money).
4. Formatting. Can be a bit annoying and there is a learning curve, but you can learn to do this yourself, if you don't want to pay for it. Here is a good guide: http://guidohenkel.com/2010/12/take-pride-in-your-ebook-formatting/ Just make sure you check everything before uploading.
5. Website. I would definitely buy a domain name, but you don't necessarily need a fancy pro-designed website. A self-hosted Wordpress installation works just as well or even a free blog with an URL redirect, if you can't afford webhosting.
6. ISBNs - nice to have, but not necessary. Again costs depend on where you live.
7. Copyright registration: My country doesn't have a copyright office - protection is automatic. Might be worthwhile, if you're in the US. Someone else will have to answer this one.
8. PO Box: Whether you need this depends on how important your privacy is to you and whether you are worried about people finding out where you live or friends, neighbours, coworkers finding out you write erotica. I live on a different continent than most of my readers, so I'm not really bothered. Your situation might be very different.
7. Advertising, blog tours, net galley etc... Again nice to have, but I wouldn't break the bank to pay for it. I'd start out with advertising opportunities, etc... that are free or low cost and then work my way up to bigger ticket sites like Bookbub. Guest posts and interviews are usually free and get your name out there. What is more, a lot of advertising sites don't accept erotica and/or short works anyway.

So in short, decide what you absolutely need and what would be nice to have, but not vital, and budget accordingly.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

I don't think your cover sucks that bad...in fact, you might be on to an untapped niche...erotica comedies based on rare subcategories of BDSM. It is sort of funny to look at. I know you like the DIY, and your wife is the editor. Why didnt you take a picture of her foot on your back? That's cheap, but its real, and people into those things would probably like the authenticity.

Not that I know anything about it. Really. Erotica covers are appealing to look at, but they are in many cases very very overproduced and mass produced, to the point that it is hard to take them seriously. Something like yours could really stand out if it was branded a little differently. If its as rare a category as you say, a good cover change could really spike the rankings.

Good luck! I just paid for a Damon Za cover today. Can't wait to see what he does with it!


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I have to co-sign on the cover comments. I won't say it's terrible but I had thought it was a humorous/light romantic mystery. I never in a million years would've guessed erotica.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Some clarification: "Pro covers" do not mean "expensive covers." When I started out, I foolishly spent $100s on a cover. And they were pretty good, I'll admit. But I've recently got an under-$100 cover ... and you know what? If you put it side-by-side with that expensive cover, you wouldn't be able to tell that it was done by two completely different people ... at a difference of several $100 dollars.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

*NOTE:* I made an edit in this post after I original posted it.

This thread intrigues me. I see folks advising investing spending real money and I see people saying start slow with a modest investment.

I see some advocating spending thousands of dollars, but I keep thinking that spending money doesn't guarantee sales enough to off-set costs.

I'm in a place where I don't have much money to invest. It's just not possible. I sometimes say that I might not get a profit any time soon, but I can't operate at a loss. I know there's a risk/reward factor here, but I see the risk of losing money. I'm not risk averse, but I can see the possibility of loss being pretty high if you invest a great deal of money.

I try to do as much as I can by myself. I'm a hybrid author. On one series, I work with a small press to cut my costs, but they take a big hunk of my profits.

I also self-publish another series. I do my self publishing at a minimal costs. On my first book, I did hire and editor for $200. I did the rest by myself - doing my own cover and got friends to beta readers. I have a background in video production and did my own book trailer with actors and special effects and everything. That cost me $125 to pay the actors and feed the cast and crew. That book has brought me in $41 so far, so I'm in the red.

I work a full-time job, but work nearly every day writing. I spend 20-30 hours a week writing, marketing, and doing my covers (and some covers for other authors) which would be considered a part-time job investment on my part, but I'm not even close to see a part-time job income.

Before turning to fiction, I did a lot of freelance writing and SEO writing on the side. I made a few thousand dollars a year doing that. (One year, I made 5 figures.)

I write fiction because I want to. I write fiction because I want to write for myself and not someone else. Yeah, I'd like to make some money at it and am doing everything within my modest means to be professional and competitive in the marketplace, but the road to success seems pretty steep right now. I'll keep at it.

I'm also starting to think I'm in the wrong genre.

I've wanted write this post for a long time. There are so many people on these boards speaking of their success, but there are a lot of "quiet types" struggling to get ahead.

No, don't feel sorry for me. I'm just keeping on, keeping on. It'll break for me or it won't.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm making a couple of hundred to a thousand a month from my books. Each time I have a new book out (every 2-3 months), I am looking for ways to invest more that don't take me away from writing. I outsource formatting (an absolute godsend!) I now outsource editing (I used to do swaps with friends, since I've also worked as small-press and non-fic editor and know lots of editors). I still enjoy doing my own covers too much to want to outsource that.

And I'm scratching the barrel. What more should I spend?

Ah, wait. Advertising. Another Bookbub coming up.

*g*


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

AC: Your second sentence begins with Everytime. Instead of Every time. A quick check of the online dictionaries reveals that Everytime's not a word. It's a Britney Spears song, but comes up red-lined in MS Word, as well as on the KB forum's spell checker, as well as being absent from MW dictionary and Dictionary.com. 

That would be an example of the sort of thing an editor would immediately catch.

The reason people need qualified editors is because at some point they begin to suspect that they don't know as much as they thought.

No disrespect intended.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I guess I took a different approach to the investment question:

Over the thirty years or so in traditional and self publishing, I have invested all the proceeds in stocks and REITs and now live off the income so I can write full time and still write whatever the _bleep_ I want.

What have I invested in the books/writing? I tend to invest in "infrastructure" -- education, hardware and software, effort. And on that I spend everything (because it's mostly time). I tend to barter for editing. I consider the cover to be a part of the work itself, so I don't hire a cover artist (otherwise I would).

Now and then I spend some money on something like advertising. I consider that to be more "gamblin' money" rather than an investment. Next year (or end of this year -- whenever I get my next round of books out) I intend to play that game more seriously. Even so, I expect the expenditure on promotional matters will be more in time and effort than money.

Camille


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

I think my question would be how financially invested am I compared to what? If you are talking my current level of income, My first book is going to be easily 50-75% of what I make in a MONTH (or 6 depending). Compared to Donald Trumps wallet, not even 1/10 of 1/10th of .5% will be invested. I am just starting out and to be perfectly honest I know where my weak points are. I want to pay for the best editor and formatter I can find because those are my weakest points but then again there is the question of HOW to pay for it? People dont work for free. Since I cannot afford the bet i am going to have to settle for less then.. am I happy about it? NO. but unless I win the lottery it is what I am going to have to do. So basically invest what you can afford and try to grow from there is my bet advice.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Build it up bit by bit. My first books were unedited, with covers I made in Word. Don't do that, haha. However, a year or so in, and I'd learned how to make better covers myself, done some proofreading swaps to get most of the errors out, etc. After two years I was investing around $250 for a light edit/proofreading job, $60 for my covers, a bit on advertising, etc. Now that I'm making a bit of money I'm hoping to employ a second editor, get custom made covers instead of photoshop jobs, etc. It's a slow process, but when you don't have thousands to just drop at the outset, I suggest you don't. It's not like it costs anything to publish. Do what you have to do to get the best quality product out there that you can afford. Don't scrimp though. While I didn't invest big bucks, I ran at a lost for my first two years, and if I'd been able to afford more I would have done.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

blakebooks said:


> AC: Your second sentence begins with Everytime. Instead of Every time. A quick check of the online dictionaries reveals that Everytime's not a word. It's a Britney Spears song, but comes up red-lined in MS Word, as well as on the KB forum's spell checker, as well as being absent from MW dictionary and Dictionary.com.
> 
> That would be an example of the sort of thing an editor would immediately catch.
> 
> ...


Do you know what else the spell-checkers and dictionaries don't like? "Submissive" used as a noun. We don't live in Germany where the government dictates what is and is not a word. "Everytime" may not be acceptable to pedants like you, but most people don't care because English is a living language and using "Everytime" as a word is commonly acceptable.

No spelling mistakes? No grammar problems? Are there some in there somewhere? Probably; all published works have them, but the editing job is perfectly acceptable.


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## Nymirra (Mar 15, 2014)

The first 3 stories I released were entirely cost free, in the sense that I didn't actively spend money. I got free pictures and turned them into covers. I got a good, English friend to proof them. I skipped on editing entirely (Other than what I did myself), set up a free blog, did no advertising that took more than time, and still don't have a P.O Box. It cost a lot of time, but no money. I mean, time is money, but I didn't fork over any cash to anyone.

The idea was that I'd spend the money I earned on those stories to improve the next batch. That's sort of what happened, too. I buy premade covers, but that's the only improvement I've been able to make because I prioritized making a living writing over funneling more money into my stories. Selfish, I guess, but that's how I decided to go about it.

If I ever get to making, say, $3000 a month or whatever, I'd definitely funnel a whole lot of that right back into my work. Editing, copy-editing, P.O Box for a newsletter, proper website(s), advertising, etc. That just isn't the case right now. I'm more at like $550-600 a month, which is enough to scrape by but no more.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm making a couple of hundred to a thousand a month from my books.


U da man! Err, you know what I mean.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

> If I ever get to making, say, $3000 a month or whatever, I'd definitely funnel a whole lot of that right back into my work. Editing, copy-editing, P.O Box for a newsletter, proper website(s), advertising, etc. That just isn't the case right now. I'm more at like $550-600 a month, which is enough to scrape by but no more.


*warning satire inbound*

No no no no no. You are doing it all wrong. First of all, stop being so selfish. Nobody needs to eat _everyday_ (oops, every day). Second, here's what you do: mortgage your house and spend ten thousand dollars on an original oil painting for your cover. Readers know. They don't buy books to read them (silly), they just like to browse the thumbnail covers and feel good feelings on their insides.

"Oh, that torso is attractive."

"Say, is that a semi-opaque wolf head staring at me through some creepy woods! I'm scared!"

"Wow, the ligatures on that font are amazing!"

Also, make sure you are writing at least one novel a day; quality doesn't matter, that's what you are paying your editor ten thousand dollars for.

Don't forget about ads, especially eBookSoda. I hear their results are AMAZING! Just look at the testimonials.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Just to ruffle a few feathers. This was my original launch cover for my first novel. I made it using Createspace cover creator. I thought it was awesome. I ran my manuscript by a few friends (none of them professional) and scrutinized it myself. This book sold nearly 5000 copies, before I decided to make the investment in 1.) the cover in my signature 2.) pro editing 3.) formatting and pro level proofreading. The number one comment in my early reviews was "great story, needs an editor." Back in those days, I had a full time job and my attitude was "let's see if this can work." 5000 sales told me it could, and I've never spent less than $1500 on a title since. Keep in mind that this was a stand alone title and I never did a promo.

Times are very different now. I got away with this in the fall of 2010, because ebooks were still in their infancy compared to today. The odds are stacked against you now, with millions of books on the market. I have yet to hear a one book wonder story like mine recently (and I am in no way bragging). Today, our world (real and perceived) is serials, product funnels, promos, perm free, rinse and repeat, launch a prequel, publish as much as possible, watch Kindleboards for the next success story and emulate (I do it. We all do it). If I had launched the above cover a year ago, I would still be at my day job. I'm convinced of it. There are simply far too many good writers making the investment described by the esteemed Mr. Blake (and others...he's just the loudest) to ignore the need to assemble a professional package. AND this package doesn't have to cost $4000, or $1000. It can be done for less, if you have the right connections AND A GREAT STORY.

Peace!


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't invest that much, honestly. Last year, for the year, my expenses were less than $5,000, and I put out twelve books in ebook and paperback. 

I do all my own covers, but I do pay for stock art, and I'm a professed self-editor, but I'm convinced that I'm a special snowflake and that's why I can get away with it. There are other reasons too--primarily that I'm a perfectionist and a control freak and I literally can't handle waiting for people.

I really don't have any idea what writers should do starting out. I don't know if I'd advise other people to do what I do. I'm pretty democratic generally, and I think that everyone can do anything, but that it will take more effort and more work for some people than others, because we aren't all born equal. I've realized lately that, while I may not be as lucky financially as some people, I'm lucky in that I have some innate ability and talent in a lot of different areas. And I am beginning to wonder if some people really can't make their own covers, because maybe they don't have a visual eye. And maybe some people can't learn to self-edit because they don't develop a sense of raging guilt over the idea that they've been spelling "every day" incorrectly for their whole lives. Like, when I find out I've been making a usage error, I get really embarrassed. I feel wretched. And you better bet that I never make that error again (at least not knowingly. My subconscious, however, sometimes makes me type things that I'm not even thinking. It will type make instead of made, for instance. It does that a lot). So, I don't know. I used to say that you either needed to invest time or invest money to get a quality product. Pay someone to do things, or take the time to learn to be good at doing things. And I used to say that it probably took about as much effort to become passably good at making covers as it did to become passably good at writing. I think I'd say that about editing too. If you want to publish flawless prose, you have to invest time in learning good usage. 

But I might revise this. It might be true that you need both time and talent/disposition to do things on your own. And I think you'll know that you have that disposition if you find yourself hopping mad every time someone insists you have to spend lots of money on this. If you find yourself determined that--by hook or by crook--you will find some way to be professional doing it yourself, then you've got the disposition.

But I think there's a difference between not spending money/not spending time/throwing things up and feeling helpless and finding ways to get a professional product using the resources you have available to you.


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## Maria Romana (Jun 7, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> It might be true that you need both time and talent/disposition to do things on your own. And I think you'll know that you have that disposition if you find yourself hopping mad every time someone insists you have to spend lots of money on this. If you find yourself determined that--by hook or by crook--you will find some way to be professional doing it yourself, then you've got the disposition.
> 
> But I think there's a difference between not spending money/not spending time/throwing things up and feeling helpless and finding ways to get a professional product using the resources you have available to you.


This is very well said. As anyone who has religiously followed KBoards long enough will tell you, there are plenty of folks who've sold well without spending a lot of money up front (see examples upthread). Outsourcing covers, editing, etc. is almost always a good investment, and will probably get you there quicker, but there are ways to get things done without a hefty cash outlay. Those things involve time, effort, and ingenuity, and choosing to go that way doesn't mean you're not serious about making a career out of writing.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Maria Romana said:


> This is very well said. As anyone who has religiously followed KBoards long enough will tell you, there are plenty of folks who've sold well without spending a lot of money up front (see examples upthread). Outsourcing covers, editing, etc. is almost always a good investment, and will probably get you there quicker, but there are ways to get things done without a hefty cash outlay. Those things involve time, effort, and ingenuity, and choosing to go that way doesn't mean you're not serious about making a career out of writing.


Too bad we don't have a like system here. I'd +1 this.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> This is very well said. As anyone who has religiously followed KBoards long enough will tell you, there are plenty of folks who've sold well without spending a lot of money up front (see examples upthread). Outsourcing covers, editing, etc. is almost always a good investment, and will probably get you there quicker, but there are ways to get things done without a hefty cash outlay. Those things involve time, effort, and ingenuity, and choosing to go that way doesn't mean you're not serious about making a career out of writing.


This! Wish there was a like button.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

AC: Your marvelous freedom from the tyranny of spelling and grammar are refreshing - if pedantic readers are expecting a book be filled with actual words, they clearly aren't in touch with the living nature of the language, wherein anything can be spelled or used however one likes, and there is no right or wrong. I'm afraid I didn't fully understand your approach. An editor is unnecessary in that case - save the money. I wish you every success with that.

Steve: OMG. That's quite a fetching orange. Should have stayed with it...

ValerieC: My problem is that 99% of those I've seen who profess that they're competent at covers and editing, aren't. Which a quick spin through their work shows. It's kind of the ugly baby syndrome - nobody wants to believe their baby is ugly, and many of its flaws are simply invisible to its creator. That, and the eye of someone who has been doing pro covers for 15 years is going to be vastly different than someone starting out. Ditto for editing, which requires a completely different set of skills than writing (assuming the author is a competent writer).

I think at best those doing self-editing are basically proofreading their own work. They won't be doing all the things an editor would do, largely because they have no idea what an editor does. As an example, echoes: repetitive words or repetition of an idea. A pet peeve of mine. I am still somewhat blind to these even after 3 drafts because my mind adjusts for them, and because I'm looking at other things. Invariably there will be paragraphs where I've got a few, which the editor flags. Same with passive voice. Same with sentence structure. I know better, but my brain doesn't work like an editor's, so I miss this stuff occasionally.

I'm just always fascinated by those who want to start a business and yet expect to put little or no money into it. In what other industry would this not get laughed out of the room? And yet in self-publishing, it's the prevailing wisdom for many.

Which might explain why the odds are so long of being successful.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

I can't believe people are still arguing with Russell. The dude has sold like a gazillion books. I give up on this thread.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

jackcrows said:


> I can't believe people are still arguing with Russell. *The dude has sold like a gazillion books.* I give up on this thread.


Which means absolutely nothing! What works for some people doesn't work for everybody. Warren Buffet has made a gazillion dollars, and his methods are pretty well documented; why isn't everybody a billionaire by now? He clearly only cares about making money, which is fine, but he also wrongly believes that many of his decisions have had anything to do with his success. If people could predict best-sellers, or box office flops, etc., then they would be doing it.

Where are the double blind trials? Where are the statistics? Where are the predictive models that have been vindicated, instead of just fit to previous data? Where is the evidence? Oh right, there isn't any, just a lot of anecdotal stories, hunches, beliefs, and people like Russel who want to believe the thousands of dollars they've spent haven't been wasted.

Is it a good idea to have a nice cover? Yes. Should you get decent editing? Yes. However, does it really matter if you spend $500 dollars on editing vs. $50? I don't think so. Nobody here is writing literary fiction they expect to be around in a hundred years; these are read and dump books. People don't care! Things outside your control dictate sales way more than which cover artist you hire or whether your editor is an English major or a professional.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

In all fairness to the OP,  I sampled his book.  Let's just say I won't be buying the book.  
It wasn't written that badly but it needed more spice.  Some meat would have been nice too.  
But alas I am just a lowly reader so what do I know?


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> In all fairness to the OP, I sampled his book. Let's just say I won't be buying the book.
> It wasn't written that badly but it needed more spice. Some meat would have been nice too.
> But alas I am just a lowly reader so what do I know?


Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Thanks for sampling, that's what it's there for. I'm sure my writing will improve over time.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

A.C. Scott said:


> Which means absolutely nothing! What works for some people doesn't work for everybody. Warren Buffet has made a gazillion dollars, and his methods are pretty well documented; why isn't everybody a billionaire by now? *He clearly only cares about making money*, which is fine, but he also wrongly believes that many of his decisions have had anything to do with his success. If people could predict best-sellers, or box office flops, etc., then they would be doing it.


Okay, I just want to say that Russell may care a great deal about making money, but his commitment is also to produce high-quality writing. I think it's unfair to characterize him the way you are doing with this statement.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> Okay, I just want to say that Russell may care a great deal about making money, but his commitment is also to produce high-quality writing. I think it's unfair to characterize him the way you are doing with this statement.


Based on every statement he's made, he seems to care a lot more about running a successful business than he does about writing books. If he cares about high-quality writing it's only because he thinks people won't buy it otherwise.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

A.C. Scott said:


> Based on every statement he's made, he seems to care a lot more about running a successful business than he does about writing books. If he cares about high-quality writing it's only because he thinks people won't buy it otherwise.


Have you read any of his books?

Also, just as I see nothing wrong with someone keeping their business start-up investments within their means, I don't fault anyone for wanting to run their publishing career in as businesslike a way as possible. I don't think people should be characterizing you as a mere hobbyist because your financial priorities are different, but I also don't think you should be disparaging someone else's priorities as putting profit before craft, especially when the evidence of commitment to that craft is readily available to prove you wrong.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

A.C. Scott said:


> Based on every statement he's made, he seems to care a lot more about running a successful business than he does about writing books. If he cares about high-quality writing it's only because he thinks people won't buy it otherwise.


He sells because he does write high quality books. Since you don't know me here is a little background. I am the queen of free and cheap. Now having said that, I do buy Russell's books the minute they come out because I am guaranteed a fantastic book. Note, his books are not cheap.

AC, little advice from one that reads many genres. Your book started out more romance than erotica. Nothing wrong with either category but reader expectations are different. Good luck though.


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## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm not sure what kind of responses you're after. I mean, the question in the subject line is a straightforward one I can answer--$2-3k per novel, less for short novels or novellas, primarily editing & proofing expenses--but it seems more like you want to know if spending less is okay.

And people have answered that. Sure, do whatever you want. No one gets to dictate how you produce or market your work. But it's a bit rude to dismiss other people's experiences--experiences *you asked for*--because their views are out of line with your anticipated and desired replies.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

OP I think it's simple. Well made covers and great editors reduce your time to break even. if you want to "make a few bucks", those are the two single most effective ways to do it that are things you can pay for. The single most effective way to do things on your end is to simply write more. I haven't found many people, though I'm sure there are some, that complained about their expensive covers or expensive editors.

With careful attention to all three of these things, you are well on your way to doing something that is more than just making a few bucks. You've had the initiative to complete and publish a book -- something you should be proud of. Even if there are millions of books on Amazon, this is an accomplishment that puts you in the low single digit percentage of humanity (are there even 600 million published authors on Earth?). This shows that you have it in you to treat this as more than a side job. This can be expensive, but really, so is your time. You worked hard on that book. It deserves the best you can give it. See it as more than 'read and dump' and odds are that other people will too.

And on the content, listen to Cin. She knows what's up, and can probably help you more than an editor on the specific issues facing authors and readers of THAT type of book.

Again, best of luck to you.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Leebee: After a point, no good is served by arguing with those who are convinced they're right _everytime_ - their efforts are invested in defending their position, nor in understanding the flaw in their position.

I pointed out that the first word of the second sentence in the OP's work isn't English as defined by, well, references on what is, and isn't, English. His response was illuminating. He doesn't care. Those who appreciate the difference between gibberish and words are "pedants," as opposed to possessed of remedial literacy. Words fail me. Or perhaps not - what's a word, anyway?

I appreciate the defense, but I assure you it's unnecessary. I'll just muddle along, selling a few books here and there, while the OP pursues his career as he deems prudent. Time will tell the wisdom of the philosophies. With coming up on 550K books sold in 34 months, I'm more than satisfied w/ my approach. I'm in no way diminished by AC's continued insistence that his approach is meritorious.

As to my focus on business in this thread, investing in one's business is a, well, business decision, not a craft one. Hence the focus on that aspect (it was the OPs slant, not mine). The importance of using actual words in one's work is a craft discussion, however apparently that has no place here, as there are no rits or rongs. Because the language lives, even if all those stodgy dictionaries haven't caught up to the OP and his editor's singular command of it.

And now I must bow out of this scintillating discussion. Be nice to each other. I've had about enough.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

> And people have answered that. Sure, do whatever you want. No one gets to dictate how you produce or market your work. But it's a bit rude to dismiss other people's experiences--experiences you asked for--because their views are out of line with your anticipated and desired replies.


I get rude when people like his high lord and majesty Russel starts telling everybody that self-publishing should be done _his_ way and anybody that disagrees is just ignorant about business. I get rude when he accuses me of publishing something that hasn't been edited when my editor, who is paid nearly forty dollars an hour to edit documents all day, has already edited it twice. I get rude when other people tell me I need to bow down and kiss his royal *ss because he's sold more than five books.

I don't read mysteries or thrillers, but I took at look at his samples and I agree with the 1 star reviews that he tries *way* too hard to be cute with his prose. I don't care how clever you think you are, and I'm sorry that so many people have been suckered into thinking it's a substitute for quality.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Can we please not let another thread become one about Russell Blake? Yes, he's dismissive of opinions that don't suit him.

And yes, I found both what he had to say, and A.C.s very funny response to be valid and actually important to hear.

Let's also note that it wasn't Russell who said that his billions of sales makes him right (not in this thread anyway).  And even if he had said it, it is utterly irrelevant to the subject of the thread, or to the experience of anyone else.

So he insulted A.C. and A.C. sniped back -- let's not pile on and take sides.  Maybe send private messages of support instead?  So we can get back to the subject of spending or not?

Camille


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

+1 to Camille.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Can we please not let another thread become one about Russell Blake? Yes, he's dismissive of opinions that don't suit him.
> 
> And yes, I found both what he had to say, and A.C.s very funny response to be valid and actually important to hear.
> 
> ...


Wait... you're saying we're allowed to have threads that _aren't_ about Russell Blake?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

This thread has been reported; I'm locking it while I review.  Lots of other threads....  

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks...I've reviewed the thread.

And, I think the thread started to go wrong when everyone forgot (or didn't know) one of our rules here: critique is not offered when none is asked for. AC didn't ask whether his books could be better, he asked how much people were investing in their books. (OP quoted below.) And that's been answered, with a range of responses. It also appears that AC has his own opinion on what's necessary, as he's mentioned several times in posts here.

Since AC's question has been answered, and the rest of the thread has deteriorated, I think we're going to call this one asked and answered. Plenty to think about in the posts here. If anyone wants to make a compelling argument on why the thread should be reopened, feel free to PM me.

And a reminder that starting a new thread to continue the discussion in a locked thread is not allowed, for obvious reasons. At least wait a few days to make it look good. 

Betsy
KBoards Moderator



A.C. Scott said:


> I was just wondering what people thought about the potential cost of being a new author after reading the thread on paying for an editor. It seems to me that if you buy all the right things, even without getting the best, you can still spend a thousand dollars or more (yikes!) just to get the ball rolling.
> 
> Cover art
> Professional editing
> ...


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