# Advice for whiny indie authors



## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

So I'm tired of indie authors whining that their books aren't selling and then refusing to accept helpful criticism. I finally had to blog about it. Here's the link for anyone interested. For those who don't feel like visiting my blog, I've also pasted the article below.

http://pjjoneswrites.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/quit-whining-indie-authors/

So some guy on KindleBoards is whining that his book isn't selling. Loads of other authors offer advice. He's offended. He wants to quit the writing business.

I didn't comment on that thread, just like I don't comment on the numerous whiny author FB posts.

_My book isn't selling. Nobody loves me. I should just quit. Wahhh!_

Authors, don't invite us to your pity parties and then reject our advice. Authors, quit whining that nobody is buying your books. If nobody is buying your books, whining isn't helping. DO something about it.

Here are some options: 
◦1. New cover
◦2. Revise.
◦3. Promote more.
◦4. Try writing another book or a whole new genre.
◦5. Quit whining. Quit whining. Quit whining.

My parodies aren't selling as well as I'd like. I realize that this genre is limiting. Not every reader is a fan of crude paranormal parody. My mainstream comedy has received stellar reviews and has sold far better than the parodies. So my next PJ Jones' book will also be a mainstream comedy, not a parody.

Do I love writing parodies?

Hell yes!

Does it sadden me that I have to put those books on hold for a while?

Hell yes!

Am I whining about it?

Hell no!

Because whining isn't going to sell more books.

I pubbed YA under another name with a publisher about five years ago. Those books didn't sell well, but they are selling well now that I've gotten my rights back and put them on Kindle, Nook and itunes. I've realized that right now YA is HOT.

So yet another reason to put parodies on hold while I focus on releasing more YAs.

In today's market, when the publishing industry has been completely rewritten by Kindle and other epubs, publishing houses are forced to adapt. This is the perfect market for indie authors. At least, those indie authors who are savvy enough to quit bitching and write for the market. Just like the publishing houses, we have to adapt, too. We have to learn new ways to sell our books. Try new things. But most of all, we have to quit whining!

And if you, the indie author, can't market, can't revise, can't adapt, can't accept feedback, then maybe this isn't the business for you.


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## AnneMarie Novark (Aug 15, 2010)

*Stands up and applauds*

Exactly!!!


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Gee, wonder what made you think of this, PJ?   Actually, I do like your advice on adapting. I think it's a good idea to take note of what genres are hard sells and to think about moving into the better selling ones when possible - assuming you're able to enjoy writing other things.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Advice to whiny authors:

Put a sock in it.

And if it makes you feel like quitting, then for crying out loud, do, and leave the rest of us in peace.

The world is unkind to people who whine (as opposed to those who seek genuine advice).


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## Hilary Thomson (Nov 20, 2011)

This comment makes me think of the book The Unstrung Harp by Edward Gorey.  Mr. Earbrass attends a literary dinner, and “The talk deals with disappointing sales, inadequate publicity, worse than adequate loyalties, idiotic and criminal reviews, others’ declining talent, and the unspeakable horror of the literary life.”


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Dara, I don't come here often, but when I do, I usually see a post like the one that's got about six pages of authors giving a certain whiny author advice. I know other indies like this. Or maybe their books are selling well, but they are not making a large enough income. It's as if they are expecting to upload their books and become instant millionaires. It's annoying.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> And if it makes you feel like quitting, then for crying out loud, do, and leave the rest of us in peace.
> 
> The world is unkind to people who whine (as opposed to those who seek genuine advice).


THANK YOU!!!


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Haha, amen to that.


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## DonnaBurgess (Jan 1, 2011)

Wish there was a "Like" button here


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

So hey, I too have a book that's not selling. It's called, "The Way The World Churns", and it's about a butter churner, written from the perspective of a normal, inanimate butter churner. I'm marketing it heavily towards Amish Kindle enthusiasts, but I just don't know what I'm doing wrong!

Please help critique my blurb, but don't post anything negative. Thanks.

-----

Butter.

They put the milk in me and slosh me around. The churning reflects my mind's inner chaos. It's a violent act, turning cow's milk into butter, which is fitting. Violence leads to authority, and authority is the root of creation... authority over others for the larger things. Building a house, leading an army, conquering the moon. Authority of self for small things like painting a fence, writing a sonnet, taming a horse.

Killing a man.

They put the blood in me and slosh me around. I'm a killer, now. Tools are just as guilty as their wielders.

My name is Tom. I'm a murderer... and I'm a butter churn.

The Butterchun series:

* The Way The World Churns
* Butter Me Up
* Roiling Dairy (coming December!)
* Greasing the Pan (coming March 2013!)


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Wow, David. So no negative criticism huh? 

Well, I think Butter Me Up would sell really well as an erotic romance.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

David Adams said:


> They put the milk in me and slosh me around. The churning reflects my mind's inner chaos. It's a violent act, turning cow's milk into butter, which is fitting. Violence leads to authority, and authority is the root of creation... authority over others for the larger things. Building a house, leading an army, conquering the moon. Authority of self for small things like painting a fence, writing a sonnet, taming a horse.


That actually made me cry (only man tears, but still...)


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

David, are you coming to the Aurealis Award ceremony on Saturday? I have a feeling that you'd get on very well with the majority of the SFF writing scene ;-)


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Unfortunately, this is the only free book the Amish will be downloading.

http://www.amazon.com/English-Standard-Version-Cross-References-ebook/dp/B001EOCFU4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336532167&sr=8-1

Butter churning has too many sexual undertones.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

PJJones said:


> Wow, David. So no negative criticism huh?
> 
> Well, I think Butter Me Up would sell really well as an erotic romance.


I felt her soft hands stroke my handle. "Ready to be pumped?" she murmured demurely, letting her fingers 'walk' down the shaft of my pump, her nails scraping gently across the wood.

I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.

Her voice came out in a breathy whisper. "Mmm. You've been a bad churn... churning blood instead of milk. Making... _blood butter_."

I still said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.

The Amish woman slowly raised my handle, depressing it. The wooden insides of the churn sloshed the milk, bubbles and froth rising to the top of my cistern. How I wished it was blood.

"You bad, bad 14th century farming device..."

Churn, churn, churn. Over and over like waves on the shore.

The whole time I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn...

How I loved her. ... and how I wanted to _kill_ her.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

So now it's like an erotic romance/horror starring a butter churn.

It's an untapped market!


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

David Adams said:


> It's an untapped market!


There might be a reason for that.

But, seriously, hey, you go! As soon as you find yourself some Amish Butter Churner Bulletin Boards, and start pumping your book there, you're going to take off- zoom, to the moon, Alice.


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## GPB (Oct 2, 2010)

Needs more adverbs. Like, really.


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## AmberC (Mar 28, 2012)

Wow.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

5 stars: I would sleep with this book and have glorious butter babies.
---------------------------

The butter churn would have had me at "hello" like in Jerry McGuire, but it said nothing, for it was a butter churn. I found this book much more fun to read while listening to Weird Al's "Amish Paradise".


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## Danielle Kazemi (Apr 2, 2011)

Hey King wrote a bestseller about a killer car. Why not take a churn at it?


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I felt her soft hands stroke my handle. "Ready to be pumped?" she murmured demurely, letting her fingers 'walk' down the shaft of my pump, her nails scraping gently across the wood.
> 
> I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.


Bwahaha! You know something? This book might actually sell.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

PJJones said:


> Bwahaha! You know something? This book might actually sell.


Might sell? Heck, I just gave it a 5 star review!


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Danielle Kazemi said:


> Hey King wrote a bestseller about a killer car. Why not take a churn at it?


I'm a little under the pump at the moment...


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey, Rex, buddy! I agree the video makes the read so much better. And the butter churn scene was so perfectly erotic! 

What's with the backwards horses?


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I'm a little under the pump at the moment...


I should come to KindleBoards more often. David, you made my night.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Hey, long time no see, PJ. Glad to see you're still in fine form. 



> ◦4. Try writing another book or a whole new genre.


So true. I temporarily set aside the strange and quirky things I'd been writing and put out a nice commercial thriller. I don't really want to write thrillers, but... it's the only title of mine that's yet earned a profit, and this year, that book is accounting for around seventy-five percent of all my sales. One other title makes up twenty percent, and the other seven books - pretty much all quirky and strange stuff - make up the remaining five percent. But yet I keep writing strange and quirky things for which there is, clearly, very little demand...


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## Ann Chambers (Apr 24, 2011)

Rofl. As the butter churns... lol.
Plus, agree with PJ, hate it when people are whining and not listening.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

David, man, you are on fire! Excuse me while I go pet my butter churn...


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

"Oooh, you naughty boy," she said, giggling. She slid one slender finger through the sticky fluid, then raised it to her face. Her finger just a few, tantalizing centimeters from her lips, she peered carefully at it. "Are you going to tell me what this is, or do I have to guess?"
"I think you can guess."
"Is that how you're going to be?" She licked her lips hesitantly, then slowly stuck her tongue out and gently, delicately tasted the fluid. "If I didn't know better," she said, softly, "I'd swear it was-"
"Whey."
"What?"
"It's whey."
"No way!"
"Yes. Whey."
She sucked her fingertip clean, eying him seductively. "Are you sure?" she asked, eventually.
"Would I lie to you, Mistress?"
"Not if you know what's good for you." She sighed. "Still... I can't believe it's not butter!"


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey, George. So nice to see you, too. Yeah, I've been hiding out with my little band of indie writers, causing all kinds of ruckus on FB. 

I have been focusing more on my YA penname, though, since that's what's selling. I hear ya about writing other books. I enjoy writing YA, but parody is so much easier. It's really not that hard to write stupid funny stories. Actually, it requires very little thinking at all. LOL. The other stuff forces me to think like a real writer.  But I'm not whining. No, no, no. I will NOT be a whiner.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

I can see the back copy text now:

"You won't believe it's not butter!"


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

George Berger said:


> "Not if you know what's good for you." She sighed. "Still... I can't believe it's not butter!"


Hey, you stole that from FLABIO! LOL!


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

PJJones said:


> Hey, Rex, buddy! I agree the video makes the read so much better. And the butter churn scene was so perfectly erotic!
> 
> What's with the backwards horses?


At the end, he was just trying to be clever and shot the last scene in reverse. He probably thought it was cute because Amish are backward.

Then again, I'm analyzing a parody music video...


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

You're not supposed to think with parody, Rex. Save your brain power for satire.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

"Behave yourself, Mr. Churn.  Or I'll go beat the rugs instead."

I wanted to thank my mistress for her attention, but of course, I could not.   For I was just her butter churn, destined to feel her hands upon my shaft, the curves of my barrel nestled between her full skirts unable to give her all she gave me.  Her vessel to be used.  And I loved it.  Craved it.  Lived for it.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

DonnaBurgess said:


> Wish there was a "Like" button here


I was just thinking the exact same thing! LOL!


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I got a cover idea.

I'm just saying.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd rename the book "The Hand that Rocks the Bloody Ladle."


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

The man was coming towards me, he tipped me on my side and pushed.  I was ashamed.  I did not roll that way, but somehow, his touch moved me in ways I had never been moved before.  Once more, I was at the mercy of another, spinning, twirling, my head in a whirl, trying to make sense of these confusing new feelings.

~~

It was some time later and my mistress returned, her hands on my shaft, pumping up and down.  Her brow glistened with sweat in the heat of the day.  It was good, but what had gone before was tantalizing too.  How could a simple butter churn make sense of it all?  How could I serve them both?

Find out in Volume II of As The World Churns.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

David and George, you have me literally laughing out loud.

And now, I shall put on my imperious hat and tell everyone, "You should all stop telling other people what to do," which, as you can see, is super contradictory, because by telling people to stop telling people to do things, I'm telling people to do things, and that's like, a paradox or something.

Seriously, though, can't we all just get along? 

P.S. I think you should collaborate, write that butter churn story, and sell it on Amazon. You can give the profits to a charity for Whiny, Whey-Faced Indie Authors who Churn for Sales


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Just imagine how many pages in your next ms you'd have written if you'd have turned your creativity on that ;-)

@George ? don't get the remark about long time no see. Unless you know me from way back at Authonomy (urgh need to go wash my keyboard now)


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> @George ? don't get the remark about long time no see. Unless you know me from way back at Authonomy (urgh need to go wash my keyboard now)


Um, my salutations, greetings, and purely platonic Icelandic gestures were meant for the sadly inimitable P.J. Jones, who has made herself regrettable scarce 'round these parts this long and lonely year...


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

David Adams said:


> The Butterchun series:
> 
> * The Way The World Churns
> * Butter Me Up
> ...


David, as far as I can see, you're only missing one thing. Something that will help you hit a HOT demographic and jumpstart a 4-book trilogy that will make you millions.

May I humbly suggest:

The Vampire Dairies.

You're welcome.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

Hey PJ. Long time no see.  Great blog post, but what is happening when the problem is not originating from the book, the cover, the blurb, etc, etc... ? I'm curious for this. Because my book doesn't sell, yet the story is great according to independent reviewers and bloggers (And unlike what some authors have claimed before the grammar of the books has no problem either according to reviewers, but as almost every single review said; they're beautifully written and this is how books or literary should look like.). The blurb theoretically also has no problems as the sales what I had and the reviewers who have ever accepted the book has accepted the books with the very same blurb and they always use it when they put up their reviews. The cover is used to be loved by many as that's the feedback what I get back over and over again. And the promotion, well, I used to make a greater marketing for my books. Oh, and I have six books out there, so that also shouldn't be a problem. So do you have any idea for this scenario? I have few theories, some of them are nasty-nasty conspiracy theories, but I'd like to hear yours.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Learnmegood said:


> The Vampire Dairies.


In a world...

Where bovines suck the blood of the living...

Passion...

Desire...

Action...

More Passion...


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I'm a little under the pump at the moment...


See, this is where you need to adapt. The Amish are going to buy a book about a water pump, more than they are about a butter churner. Bigger market - everyone has a water pump.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

question) what drew me to this topic?
answer) 854 views, 854 whiny authors (myself included)


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

David Adams said:


> So hey, I too have a book that's not selling. It's called, "The Way The World Churns", and it's about a butter churner, written from the perspective of a normal, inanimate butter churner. I'm marketing it heavily towards Amish Kindle enthusiasts, but I just don't know what I'm doing wrong!
> 
> Please help critique my blurb, but don't post anything negative. Thanks.
> 
> ...


I would literally pay 99cents for every one of your comments like this. Please stop giving this stuff away, man!


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## ETS PRESS (Nov 4, 2011)

David - You are marketing this book in the wrong genre. Think: HUMOR. I do believe you have a butter churning hit on your hands.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I wish people would quit whining about whiny indie authors...


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## kea (Jun 13, 2011)

David, your posts never fail to entertain, enlighten or put one into fits of giggles.
I think you're on to something with this butter churner! 



David Adams said:


> I felt her soft hands stroke my handle. "Ready to be pumped?" she murmured demurely, letting her fingers 'walk' down the shaft of my pump, her nails scraping gently across the wood.
> 
> I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

I read things like this, and wonder why KB has not unleashed its own _Atlanta Nights_ upon the world...


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## writingundertheinfluence (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't post here a lot, but I sometimes lurk to see what's happening.

David: I've never read one of your books, but I swear I'm going to buy one now just because of the butter churn blurb. If that's the kind of stuff you can pump out on a forum, I'm guessing your books are well worth reading.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

I admit that I'm whiny... but if somebody offers me good advice, I grab it out of their hands like a fat kid grabs cake!  

Always grateful for the wisdom of those further down the self publishing road than I am.


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## David Callinan (Oct 10, 2011)

Here, here! Both hands clapping.


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## Vegasgyrl007 (May 11, 2011)

PJ, you done good, woman. It does get tiresome because you want to shake the muppet out of their misery and scream, "Act like an adult!"

This isn't Romper Room and you don't get to have tantrums just because your lousy book won't sell. If it is too damn hot in the kitchen, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord/Allah/white bearded man in the sky split ya.

But that is just my humble opinion.


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## CJBranscome (Oct 25, 2011)

Hysterical thread! I clicked on it because I've had a few whiny students this week. I didn't realize this thread would cheer me up so much.  

Enjoy the day everyone!

CJ


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## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

David Adams said:


> So hey, I too have a book that's not selling. It's called, "The Way The World Churns", and it's about a butter churner, written from the perspective of a normal, inanimate butter churner. I'm marketing it heavily towards Amish Kindle enthusiasts, but I just don't know what I'm doing wrong!
> 
> Please help critique my blurb, but don't post anything negative. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Wow, David. That's not original. You got the Butter idea from the first sentence of my Prologue, _didncha_ !

[ excerpt: Prologue, Present-Day Dublin / " Traffic churned the fresh morning air to thick yellow." ]

Not to whine or anything. Think I'll start a thread about this in the Corner. If It's Not Your Butter, It Butter BE Good.

Unless of course, you butter me up. Fifty Shades Of Butter and all that. _Last Tango in Butter_ -- ?


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## J Dean (Feb 9, 2009)

Yep.  This is the wrong business to be thin-skinned and immature.


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

David Adams said:


> So hey, I too have a book that's not selling. It's called, "The Way The World Churns", and it's about a butter churner, written from the perspective of a normal, inanimate butter churner. I'm marketing it heavily towards Amish Kindle enthusiasts, but I just don't know what I'm doing wrong!
> 
> Please help critique my blurb, but don't post anything negative. Thanks.
> 
> ...


Yep. It's still funny.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

George, so sorry I've been absent. I've been really busy promoting myriad pennames, goofing off on Facebook, writing various genres, goofing off on Facebook, blogging, tweeting, goofing off on Facebook... 

After reading David's humor and everyone's responses, I feel I may need to goof off on here more often.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Vegasgyrl007 said:


> PJ, you done good, woman. It does get tiresome because you want to shake the muppet out of their misery and scream, "Act like an adult!"


Amen! Waving 'hi' to Danielle from one of my goof-off FB groups.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

PJJones said:


> So I'm tired of indie authors whining that their books aren't selling and then refusing to accept helpful criticism. I finally had to blog about it. Here's the link for anyone interested. For those who don't feel like visiting my blog, I've also pasted the article below.
> 
> http://pjjoneswrites.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/quit-whining-indie-authors/
> 
> ...


Well, that was certainly harsh and although I'm not a whiner, I feel sorry for those who are. This business is very tough and I think they just need to let off some steam, it helps them feel better, get pointers, find out what they are doing wrong. You invest a lot of yourself in a book and if nobody pays attention to it, is like ignoring your child and it hurts. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We are all entitled to whine a little because this is a game of Russian roulette anyway and not always the best books get sold. So to make the assumption that you're not selling because your book isn't good, is a bit cruel and false.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

J Dean said:


> Yep. This is the wrong business to be thin-skinned and immature.


Rats! I was afraid of that.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Beatriz said:


> Well, that was certainly harsh and although I'm not a whiner, I feel sorry for those who are. This business is very tough and I think they just need to let off some steam, it helps them feel better, get pointers, find out what they are doing wrong. You invest a lot of yourself in a book and if nobody pays attention to it, is like ignoring your child and it hurts. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We are all entitled to whine a little because this is a game of Russian roulette anyway and not always the best books get sold. So to make the assumption that you're not selling because your book isn't good, is a bit cruel and false.


I think you've missed the point here. Did I say that the book wasn't good? Where? Did you even read my article?


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

PJJones said:


> I think you've missed the point here. Did I say that the book wasn't good? Where? Did you even read my article?


You didn't come out and said it but you implied it with revise and accept constructive criticism. What is that mean? The book may be darn good and is not selling simply because the author doesn't have the time to kill himself on promotion. In this game some books catch on like wild fire without much effort while others need all the help they can get, that's all I'm saying.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

You've totally missed the point but alrighty then.


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## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

... puny author.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

Beatriz said:


> Well, that was certainly harsh and although I'm not a whiner, I feel sorry for those who are. This business is very tough and I think they just need to let off some steam, it helps them feel better, get pointers, find out what they are doing wrong. You invest a lot of yourself in a book and if nobody pays attention to it, is like ignoring your child and it hurts. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We are all entitled to whine a little because this is a game of Russian roulette anyway and not always the best books get sold. So to make the assumption that you're not selling because your book isn't good, is a bit cruel and false.


There is a difference between "venting" and "whining." It is good to vent and just get something out of your system. I vent all the time. When my head is ready to explode because I just got ANOTHER submission for a full length novel even though it says "we are not reading full-length manuscripts at this time" right on my submission guidelines page. When I'm ready to choke someone because the directions say "Do not nominate your own book" and then fifty people nominate their own books. When I discover someone bitching about me on their blog because of "unsolicited" feedback on a submission when the author specifically ASKED for feedback if the story was rejected. You vent to get it out of your system and move on. And in venting others in the same position can relate a little and feel better knowing it isn't just something they deal with.

But then there is whining, which does nothing constructive at all. The professional victims who consistently act like their is some vast conspiracy of people out to get them. Pointing fingers and laying blame on Amazon, other authors, readers, bloggers, the president, "The Big Six", etc etc etc. Particularly when you seem to be asking for advice and people go out of their way to offer it. If you ask a group of professionals (and make no mistake, KB has one of the biggest populations of actual successful self-publishers of any community I frequent) "Why isn't this book selling?" They are going to tell you what they think. You can ignore it or adopt it, you can agree or disagree. But what you don't do is tell someone that your website costs more than their house and go on about how jealous everyone is of you.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

David Adams said:


> I felt her soft hands stroke my handle. "Ready to be pumped?" she murmured demurely, letting her fingers 'walk' down the shaft of my pump, her nails scraping gently across the wood.
> 
> I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.
> 
> ...


I just died laughing. It's almost too much ... please, keep writing forever.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

I dont really see anything constructive, professional or mature about kicking someone when they're down.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> I dont really see anything constructive, professional or mature about kicking someone when they're down.


Bravo. That's exactly the gist of it. The big sellers out there should be glad they are selling thousands and let the whiners of the world whine away.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Beatriz said:


> Well, that was certainly harsh and although I'm not a whiner, I feel sorry for those who are. This business is very tough and I think they just need to let off some steam, it helps them feel better, get pointers, find out what they are doing wrong. You invest a lot of yourself in a book and if nobody pays attention to it, is like ignoring your child and it hurts. I really don't see anything wrong with that. We are all entitled to whine a little because this is a game of Russian roulette anyway and not always the best books get sold. So to make the assumption that you're not selling because your book isn't good, is a bit cruel and false.


Whining in a public forum is never a good idea, because it rarely gets you what you want. People feel free to share their opinions of what you've said, and at least some of it is not going to be what you wanted to hear.

If they really wanted pointers about what they're doing wrong, rather than just having people tell them what they wanted to hear, they would be more willing to listen when people offer constructive criticism. Note that I did not say 'follow every piece of concrit as if it were written in stone', I said 'listen'.

A lot of people make the assumption that the book isn't selling because of something other than the quality of the writing. But the fact is, sometimes it really is the quality of the writing.

I don't really understand how saying 'a book isn't selling because it's not good enough yet' is cruel. Especially if it's the truth. Sometimes a writer just isn't ready to be published. I've read a lot of slush in my time, and very rarely the press I work for will reject something because they already have something that's very similar. But most of the time, it's because the writing just isn't good enough. That's not cruelty, it's just the truth. And although I have no proof for this, I'd guess the percentage of good books to bad books on Kindle is similar, so to assume a book isn't good enough is probably not that far off the mark in a lot of cases.

And just to put this in perspective, I've submitted some short stories to magazines and racked up a good number of rejections, to go along with a few acceptances. Sometimes I got rejected because the story wasn't right for the market. But more often, it was because the story wasn't good enough. They weren't being cruel by saying so, it was just a fact.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Whining in a public forum is never a good idea, because it rarely gets you what you want.


Maybe, but if you can't speak about your failures on a public forum, don't do this job. Failures are part of this job, so as success. You're also a human and not everyone is successful, especially not in the beginning. If readers can't accept that, that's not your problem. Speaking about failures, speaking and theorizing about the possibilities is not whining, only to those who sometimes cause the failures in the background or who hate to help others. The 21st century is a pretty [expletive] century, with pretty [expletive] up people as everyone is keeping the distance from the others, and if you have a different opinion, that's already whining or already wrong, but speaking about failures or asking for help is not and never was whining.



> People feel free to share their opinions of what you've said, and at least some of it is not going to be what you wanted to hear.


However this is the other side. The oversensitive author syndrome. Don't ask for truth, if you don't want to hear it. But you also must meditate on what is good for your book, even if some advices sounds so good. Personally I encountered with the "envious author" syndrome when the dear author gave false advices just to take revenge for a never existed grievance or just to make a bad day for the fellow author, or just to present himself so important. There are plenty envious people out there, so I can't blame authors who love to meditate on advices instead of believing and accepting everything blindly.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Whining isn't the problem. It's the whiners who then refuse to listen to advice. My book's not selling but I don't want to revise my blurb, I don't want to promote more, I don't want to pay to fix my homemade cover...

Selling thousands? I wish. I nearly hit 1K sales last month (combined pennames and several books), so I am nowhere NEAR the big guns. I'm trying to get there. But I truly appreciate being labeled a big seller.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> I don't really understand how saying 'a book isn't selling because it's not good enough yet' is cruel. Especially if it's the truth.


Because many times the author has put forth his best effort, he has picked at the story, he has re-written it, he got professional editing done, he had betas read it, etc...And it's still not good enough. And then he thought maybe it was just the story and he went out and wrote another book, different story. Maybe even a different genre. Telling the author it's not good enough in that instance is essntially telling the author that he's not smart enough to write a good book. Any dreams he might've had are flushed. It is cruel. It is also merciful, because playing along and telling him the book is good keeps his hopes up, keeps him strung along, writing more bad books. Since most of us don't really know whether the author has put forth his best effort or not, we don't know if telling him it's not good enough is the nail in the coffin of those dreams, so most people assume the author simply hasn't tried enough, and encourage him and keep him trying by playing along and pretending it's some quirk of fate that has nailed him to his cross. And it's twice as hard to be honest and truthful, if it's someone you've befriended. People just have to figure this stuff out for themselves. We are all alone on that island of doubt. My advice is never give up. Assume it's something other than your writing and write the next thing, trying to improve. Maybe you're being naive, but it's better than surrendering when you haven't fulfilled your potential. But my advice to anyone who's critiquing another's work, is be honest. You owe it to them, even if it's that last nail in the coffin.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Guardian said:


> There are plenty envious people out there, so I can't blame authors who love to meditate on advices instead of believing and accepting everything blindly.


Of course a writer shouldn't just accept advice blindly - that way lies disaster. But there are plenty of good writers and successful marketers on this board who have offered a ton of good advice, with nothing but the best of intentions. They took time out of their own busy schedules to offer some really in-depth, well-thought constructive criticism, and when it appears that the person seeking advice didn't even take a minute to consider it, it feels like a waste of time, and a bit of a slap in the face besides.

If someone is too thin-skinned that they can't take some constructive criticism, perhaps there are better, safer places for them to vent than in an open forum well known to be filled with people who tell the hard truth.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> But, it's okay to be thick-skinned and immature, right?


Only if your genre's YA or fantasy...


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Whining in a public forum is never a good idea, because it rarely gets you what you want. People feel free to share their opinions of what you've said, and at least some of it is not going to be what you wanted to hear.
> 
> If they really wanted pointers about what they're doing wrong, rather than just having people tell them what they wanted to hear, they would be more willing to listen when people offer constructive criticism. Note that I did not say 'follow every piece of concrit as if it were written in stone', I said 'listen'.
> 
> ...


There you go again. There is a difference between soliciting advice and whining. The person who's complaining is not soliciting advice, they are simply stating a fact. I've seen posts where writers do solicit advice about their covers, style of writing, etc., and that's quite different. But when a writer feels bad and wants to complain that he or she is not selling at all, I do understand because for a long time I didn't sell anything either and the reason was lack of exposure, lack of time to promote like crazy, etc., etc., so I tell them to be patient, I try to offer them hope for the future. I don't mock them, I don't shoot them down because they feel bad enough already. Now it's true that there might be some or a lot out there who are poor writers and that's the reason they are not selling but they don't have to know that, do they? Lousy reviews if they get any, will tell them what the problem is soon enough, and then it will be up to them to improve or get out of the business, meantime their whining doesn't really hurt anyone, does it? And I'm not in a position to judge their books because I haven't read them. There might be very good but in this capricious business it doesn't really make a difference. You need a lot of luck in this field and a lot of books that make it really big like "The Hunger Games" are not masterpieces in my opinion so this is a very subjective business.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Assume it's something other than your writing and write the next thing, trying to improve. Maybe you're being naive, but it's better than surrendering when you haven't fulfilled your potential. But my advice to anyone who's critiquing another's work, is be honest. You owe it to them, even if it's that last nail in the coffin.


The problem with assuming it's something other than the writing, I think, is that a lot of people will assume that it ain't broke, so there's no need to fix it. But maybe if someone came along and told a writer in that situation that it was their writing, rather than putting the blame for lack of sales on everything else, and the writer was willing to listen to concrit from knowledgeable people, maybe the next book would be good enough. And that writer would get to where they want to be.


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## Michael Murray (Oct 31, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Whining in a public forum is never a good idea, because it rarely gets you what you want.


Well maybe what the whiner wants is attention? Often they get it. Whereas no one will answer my question about formatting headlines. Wait. _Whine...._


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Terry Gilliam (can’t beat a Python for a great line):  “Talent is less important in film-making than patience. If you really want your films to say something that you hope is unique, then patience and stamina, thick skin and a kind of stupidity, a mule-like stupidity, is what you really need.”


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Beatriz said:


> There you go again. There is a difference between soliciting advice and whining... I don't mock them, I don't shoot them down because they feel bad enough already.


There's also a difference between mocking and constructive criticism. One is useful, and one is just mean. And I think people usually assume that if someone puts a post up whining/venting about something, the poster is looking for ways to fix the problem. Maybe they aren't, but if that's the case, maybe it would save everyone a lot of time and effort if that was stated up front.



Beatriz said:


> Now it's true that there might be some or a lot out there who are poor writers and that's the reason they are not selling but they don't have to know that, do they? Lousy reviews if they get any, will tell them what the problem is soon enough, and then it will be up to them to improve or get out of the business, meantime their whining doesn't really hurt anyone, does it?


Well, yeah, I kind of think they do have to know that, if what they really want is to fix the problem they've got. Because otherwise nothing will change, and they'll be stuck in a big, vicious circle by a lack of knowledge. What if they don't get any lousy reviews to learn from? What if they do, but because everyone else has refrained from telling them the hard truth, they just think the 1-star reviewers didn't know what the heck they were talking about? Because, really, if someone isn't willing to take concrit from people who know what they're talking about, why would they take concrit from reviewers who may have no knowledge of the industry whatsoever?


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## Raquel Lyon (Mar 3, 2012)

Seriously, stop, stop. My sides can't take anymore! 



David Adams said:


> I felt her soft hands stroke my handle. "Ready to be pumped?" she murmured demurely, letting her fingers 'walk' down the shaft of my pump, her nails scraping gently across the wood.
> 
> I said nothing, of course, because I was a butter churn.
> 
> ...


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Beatriz said:


> Now it's true that there might be some or a lot out there who are poor writers and that's the reason they are not selling but they don't have to know that, do they? Lousy reviews if they get any, will tell them what the problem is soon enough, and then it will be up to them to improve or get out of the business, meantime their whining doesn't really hurt anyone, does it?


I think it's far more cruel to stand silently by while someone tries to rationalize away their non-success by blaming it - as happens all too often - on everything but the actual quality of their writing than to tell them, for example, that they need to write a different book, or that they desperately need a competent editor, and why.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Telling the author it's not good enough in that instance is essntially telling the author that he's not smart enough to write a good book.


I know plenty of brilliant people who can't write worth a damn. Intellect has nothing to do with it.

There is nothing cruel about saying a book is not good enough. Having your book accepted by the masses is not a Constitutional right. Having a book accepted by the masses is not an inate entitlement. I honestly don't understand arguments that imply somehow that the truth is bad.

I can't sing for a damn. If I self-produced an album and it didn't sell, it wouldn't be cruel to tell me "*****, you sound like a drowning cat." Because I DO sound like a drowning cat. What would be cruel is to tell me "You can do anything you put your mind to! Don't let the haters get you down!" and encourage me to continue following a "dream" that is only embarassing me.

I also have zero artistic ability (for those of you that have forgotten, allow me to remind you)










THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of my artistic ability. I SUCK. And no amount of positive thinking and rainbow-colored happy thoughts will ever change the fact that the above is the best I can do. And I have actually taken art classes (requirement in college-fortunately, they graded on effort and not talent lol) and I own some art software which I just goof around with. But if I opened up a website tomarrow offering to sell my services as an illustrator, I would hope to the gods one of you would drive over to my house, knock on the door, and when I answered it slapped my upside the head screaming "What in the blue hell are you thinking?" What would be cruel is if you all said "Keep at it!" and encouraged me to keep following a dream that has no basis in reality.

I read a report recently that 20% of high school grads are FUNCTIONALLY ILLITERATE. About half of the adults in the US can't read above a 5th grade level. Most people struggle to write grammatically correct sentences. And yet we act sometimes like writing well is just a matter of fluffy bunny slippers and happy thoughts. It isn't. Not everyone can do this. Just like not everyone can be an actor or a football player or a quantum physicist. I think it is more cruel to pretend something is good and encourage people to keep banging their heads against the wall than it is to say "this isn't publishable."


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

Well said.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Oh please... stop whining about whiny authors. There you are, that's my whine over with.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

PJJones said:


> It's the whiners who then refuse to listen to advice.


As I wrote, I believe it's better if people meditate on advices, instead of accepting everything immediately. And that's not whining, just soliciting the advices instead of accepting them blindly as many demands. These days people believe that everything what they say is gold, while everything what they say is just an opinion out of the thousands what others may accept or refuse as they have to decide what is good for the actual subject. My personal experience is that people love to give advices and they also demand from others to accept it immediately without questions. The problem is that many is just pretending that they know something about the actual subject, but in the reality they have no clue about it at all. But nowadays everyone is so VIP.



> My book's not selling but I don't want to revise my blurb, I don't want to promote more, I don't want to pay to fix my homemade cover...


But this is true. If someone doesn't want to do anything for the success, but just waiting the miracle to happen, that one deserves the failure. But if an author says to another author that something is not good enough, that doesn't mean he is right (The "Envious" factor, or "I want to eliminate the competition" factor.). I also got plenty false advices regarding few things because some people had ego and anger management control problems when the foreign guy, humble me knew few things better.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Can we move on to wine press stories? I think butter churns are too naughty.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Can we move on to wine press stories? I think butter churns are too naughty.


So, you're probably not interested in "Weeknights at the Winery, Vol III: The Mystery of the Empty Bunghole", either?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Whining isn't the problem. It's the whiners who then refuse to listen to advice.


Why is that a problem? For whom? The whiner or the advisor?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I know plenty of brilliant people who can't write worth a d*mn. Intellect has nothing to do with it.
> 
> There is nothing cruel about saying a book is not good enough. Having your book accepted by the masses is not a Constitutional right. Having a book accepted by the masses is not an inate entitlement. I honestly don't understand arguments that imply somehow that the truth is bad.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but those aren't dreams you actually think you might fulfill. A lot of people don't have any dreams left EXCEPT to be a writer. It's something to live for. Taking the dream away leaves them with nothing and leads to suicide...


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

If you post on a public forum in the Writer's Dept that your book is not selling etc etc etc there are some who will offer advice in trying to help that author. KB is such a place where some will try to help. The OP is free to implement the advice or not. No reason to get defensive and debate it or get all emotional. Usually here are some good reasons why a book does not sell. But not all good books will sell. Just ask any publishers about books they bet on or authors they rejected.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There is nothing cruel about saying a book is not good enough. Having your book accepted by the masses is not a Constitutional right. Having a book accepted by the masses is not an inate entitlement. I honestly don't understand arguments that imply somehow that the truth is bad.


AMEN!!!


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, but those aren't dreams you actually think you might fulfill. A lot of people don't have any dreams left EXCEPT to be a writer. It's something to live for. Taking the dream away leaves them with nothing and leads to suicide...


Ye gods. No. I refuse to take responsibly for people who are so unstable they would threaten suicide over a forum post. And no, I am not going to lie, feign interest in a bad book, offer false encourage, and essentially ENABLE someone who is that mentally unstable.

Besides, I have my own instabilities to deal with. I'm not gonna take on other peoples.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

or, as Victorine says "Be nice."

or, as Storm says "If you cant say anything nice, say nothing at all."


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> or, as Victorine says "Be nice."
> 
> or, as Storm says "If you cant say anything nice, say nothing at all."


Personally, I think that remaining silent while someone labors along under the delusion that they're much better than they actually are is not very kind at all.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Ye gods. No. I refuse to take responsibly for people who are so unstable they would threaten suicide over a forum post. And no, I am not going to lie, feign interest in a bad book, offer false encourage, and essentially ENABLE someone who is that mentally unstable.
> 
> Besides, I have my own instabilities to deal with. I'm not gonna take on other peoples.


I didn't suggest you do any of the above. Okay, toning it down for you, let me put it this way, let's say a homely girl gets herself all dolled up to go out in the hopes of meeting a guy, is it cruel to tell her that no amount of makeup will do a damn thing for her, she's still ugly? It's the truth, after all, right? Again, if you read my post, I think it is important for us to tell the truth to authors, but I also think it's cruel on some level.


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## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

The waffle iron gazed down on the scene from his place on the wall, high above.  It was a sight he had seen so many times before, and it sickened him.  The all-too familiar rage rose inside him like fresh batter in a hot waffle iron.

"Why does he get all the action?" he tried to say out loud.  Alas, he too was a simple appliance, lacking vocal cords.  And a frontal lobe.

He seethed.

"Your time will come, butter churn.  Your time will come."


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

If you feel your book isn't good enough, make it better. No one is stopping anyone from improving their work.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I didn't suggest you do any of the above. Okay, toning it down for you, let me put it this way, let's say a homely girl gets herself all dolled up to go out in the hopes of meeting a guy, is it cruel to tell her that no amount of makeup will do a d*mn thing for her, she's still ugly? It's the truth, after all, right? Again, if you read my post, I think it is important for us to tell the truth to authors, but I also think it's cruel on some level.


There's a big difference between those two situations. Unless a person gets plastic surgery there's not much they can do about their looks. But telling a writer that their book needs work can be productive, because if they work hard and try to learn from their mistakes, their writing will likely get better.


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## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Regardless of how whining is defined, and what the right way is to give criticism and when, and the right way to receive criticism, there will be at least one author out there who now believes they cannot turn to their peers for help or commiseration without being attacked, and that is sad.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I didn't suggest you do any of the above. Okay, toning it down for you, let me put it this way, let's say a homely girl gets herself all dolled up to go out in the hopes of meeting a guy, is it cruel to tell her that no amount of makeup will do a d*mn thing for her, she's still ugly? It's the truth, after all, right? Again, if you read my post, I think it is important for us to tell the truth to authors, but I also think it's cruel on some level.


Methodology is really the heart of the matter.

Cruel: You're ugly. Nothing will help you.
Constructive: People say that they think you're pretty when you wear your hair down. Why not try that?

With writers:

Cruel: Your dialogue is crap. It sucks.
Constructive: Here's the way people usually do dialogue, and they've gotten lots of sales. They must be doing something right. example 1, 2, 3...

When people ask for help, there's no need to simply write them off and tell them how bad they are. If they want sympathy that you won't give, is there any benefit to putting them down?

I would say no, and I would say that we have plenty of opportunities to be put down outside of hanging out with others who are supposed to know how it feels to go through some of the things we do. And I also think that every problem or cry for help can be approached in a constructive way. I don't demand that everyone be nice, but it's not too much to ask that people be at least neutral-constructive.


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## Guest (May 9, 2012)

PJJones said:


> I nearly hit 1K sales last month (combined pennames and several books), so I am nowhere NEAR the big guns. I'm trying to get there. But I truly appreciate being labeled a big seller.


PJ...I believe your covers are holding you back!


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Selina Fenech said:


> Regardless of how whining is defined, and what the right way is to give criticism and when, and the right way to receive criticism, there will be at least one author out there who now believes they cannot turn to their peers for help or commiseration without being attacked, and that is sad.


Just to be clear, are you saying that telling someone a truth that they maybe don't want to hear is an attack? Or do you mean comments that are deliberately meant to hurt someone?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> There's a big difference between those two situations. Unless a person gets plastic surgery there's not much they can do about their looks. But telling a writer that their book needs work can be productive, because if they work hard and try to learn from their mistakes, their writing will likely get better.


Again, I'm talking about the writer who has tried everything, and just doesn't have it. Doesn't matter how many times you tell them the book needs work, it will never be good because the writer doesn't have what it takes to make it good, same as the girl doesn't have what it takes to be attractive.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm always at least moderately amused by people who whine about other people whining.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Again, I'm talking about the writer who has tried everything, and just doesn't have it. Doesn't matter how many times you tell them the book needs work, it will never be good because the writer doesn't have what it takes to make it good, same as the girl doesn't have what it takes to be attractive.


Then wouldn't it be better for someone to tell them that their writing just isn't good, so they can find something else to do that they are good at?

I can only go by how I think I would feel in that situation, and that is that I would rather have someone tell me the truth, so that I could choose between a) saving myself from further embarrassment or b) continuing to plug away no matter what other people thought.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Okay, toning it down for you, let me put it this way, let's say a homely girl gets herself all dolled up to go out in the hopes of meeting a guy, is it cruel to tell her that no amount of makeup will do a d*mn thing for her, she's still ugly?


Makes you wonder if the advice is for the benefit of the author or the advisor.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> PJ...I believe your covers are holding you back!


Mike Angel, you got something against Flabio's moobs? I think you're jealous.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

*And back to my original premise, which I doubt some of the offended parties here have even read: * 
If nobody is buying your books, whining isn't helping. DO something about it.

Here are some options: 
◦1. New cover
◦2. Revise.
◦3. Promote more.
◦4. Try writing another book or a whole new genre.
◦5. Quit whining. Quit whining. Quit whining.

This, to me, is constructive criticism. How is this making someone want to commit suicide? How is encouraging an author to quit whining and work on improvement harming the author? Lying to authors and stroking their misguided and deflated egos is far more harmful.

I certainly am glad Kindle Publishing wasn't around ten years ago when I tried to publish a heaping pile of crap historical romance. I brought it to my first ever critique group, expecting them to lavish my manuscript with praise. I left with a sea of red on my manuscript and a seriously deflated ego, but at least I left with tools I needed to improve my writing. It still took a few years before I was able to final in writing contests and get a contract. And I'm still learning. I'm still improving my craft. Hopefully, the same can be said for anyone calling himself/herself a writer.

If your book isn't selling, and you come on here and complain, and then reject all helpful advice, how can you ever expect your book to do well in this competitive market? Those who offer helpful advice are doing you a favor. Those who pat you on the back and lie to you are doing you a disservice.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

I've run into this on pretty much every bulletin board I've ever been on.  You go on Monster's job boards asking why you can't get/keep a job.  You go on a mom's club board and ask why you can't pay your rent.  You go on a writer's board and ask why your book isn't selling.

I'm a call it like I see it girl.  I don't sugar coat it.  I don't set out to hurt your feelings, but I do get to the point.


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

Whining about whining about whining about... 

How meta! How internet! 

Can you imagine the deafening silence if the "whiners" shut up?


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## Michelle Muto (Feb 1, 2011)

The butter churn cracks me up. Even made me come out from lurking.

So, David... if the Amish woman loves the butter churn, why is she spanking pumping it? Clearly, it's been a baaaad butter churn.

And now I can't get that music out of my head. No, not THAT music. BOC's I'm churnin' for you. (Sorry, bad pun. Had to be done - ducks back into lurkdom).


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Michelle Muto said:


> The butter churn cracks me up. Even made me come out from lurking.
> 
> So, David... if the Amish woman loves the butter churn, why is she spanking pumping it? Clearly, it's been a baaaad butter churn.
> 
> And now I can't get that music out of my head. No, not THAT music. BOC's I'm churnin' for you. (Sorry, bad pun. Had to be done - ducks back into lurkdom).


Another BOC butter churn, "Don't fear the Creamer".
It needs more cowbell.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

This forum reminds me of family vacations.

Kids in the back, asking "are we there yet?"

People up front telling everyone in the back to quiet down and write another book.

Kids in the back getting frustrated with length of journey, begin picking fights with each other.

Somebody throws up Ginger-Ale all over the dog.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Morgan Gallagher said:



> or, as Victorine says "Be nice."
> 
> or, as Storm says "If you cant say anything nice, say nothing at all."


Plato didn't say this. Not kind to point it out, perhaps, but true all the same.


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## AmberC (Mar 28, 2012)

Double LOL to last two posts. Cue the cold medicine it's time for bed.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Another BOC butter churn, "Don't fear the Creamer".
> It needs more cowbell.


I dunno about cowbells, but...


All our curds have come;
Here and then they're gone.
Kittens don't fear the creamer,
Nor do the dog, the kids or your mom;
We can be like they are...
Come on baby, don't fear the creamer
Baby take my hand, don't fear the creamer
You'll be able to try, don't fear the creamer
Baby I'm your man...

Lactose intolerance;
sulphur-y flatulence.
Romeo and Juliet, are together in eternity
Romeo and Juliet
40,000 men and women everyday
Like Romeo and Juliet
40,000 men and women everyday
Redefining dairy-ness
Another 40,000 coming everyday
We can be like they are
Come on baby, don't fear the creamer
Baby take my hand, don't fear the creamer
You'll be able to fly, don't fear the creamer
Baby I'm your man...

Almond soy is fun;
Drank it now it's done.
Tried the pasteurized sadness,
And it was clear we couldn't go on;
Then the door was opened and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared;
The curtains flew then he appeared,
saying "don't be afraid, Come on baby", 
and she had no fear
And she ran to him, 
then they started to fly
They looked awkward and said goodby;
she had become like they are;
She had taken his hand;
she had become like they are;
Come on baby...
don't fear the creamer...​
Also...


For everything
churn, churn, churn
There is a reason
churn, churn, churn
And a time
For all the cheeses
even Edam

A time to be born
A time to die
A time to plant
A time to reap
A time to kill
A time to heal
A time to laugh
A time to weep

For everything
churn, churn, churn
There is a reason
churn, churn, churn
And a time
For all the cheeses
even Edam

A time to build up
A time to break down
A time to dance
A time to mourn
A time to butter your scones
A time to butter scones together

For everything
churn, churn, churn
There is a reason
churn, churn, churn
And a time
For all the cheeses
even Edam

A time of love
A time of hate
A time of war
A time of peace
A time to try Muenster
A time to refrain from that Muenster

For everything
churn, churn, churn
There is a reason
churn, churn, churn
And a time
For all the cheeses
even Edam

A time to gain
A time to lose
A time to rend
A time to sew
A time to love
A time to hate
A time for cheese
I swear it's not too late​


----------



## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> Cruel: Your dialogue is crap. It sucks.
> Constructive: Here's the way people usually do dialogue, and they've gotten lots of sales. They must be doing something right. example 1, 2, 3...


Some people fail to respond to diplomacy.

*What you say:* "Here's the way people usually do dialogue, and they've gotten lots of sales. They must be doing something right. example 1, 2, 3..."

*What they hear:* "Other people, blah, blah, blah, sales, right, blah, blah, blah."

*What they're thinking:* "Awesome! My writing is unique and stands out from the crowd. It's not like every other book out there! I am a great writer. I just need to do better marketing."

*What you say:* "Your dialogue is crap. It sucks."

*What they hear:* "Your dialogue is crap. It sucks."

*What they're thinking:* "Who is this guy to question MY writing? I've been writing since I was in grade school when I wrote my first little book and my parents told me it was the greatest book they had ever seen. Wait. My parents also told me that kissing gives you cooties and that I just needed to have 'one more bite' of my dinner _a half dozen times_ before I could leave the table. What else did they lie to me about? Holy cow. This guy never told me kissing gives you cooties. He never made me eat overcooked vegetables that I wouldn't even want to eat if they were prepared properly. Dang. My dialogue does suck."


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> *What you say:* "Your dialogue is crap. It sucks."
> 
> *What they hear:* "Your dialogue is crap. It sucks."


My writing teacher wrote "TRITE" in the margin of a short story. Message received!

She disliked me on a personal level, but she still helped me immensely.

I actually prefer kind but direct critique. I don't like the phrase "brutally honest" because you need not be brutal to be honest. I prefer to be compassionately, directly honest.


----------



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

D. said:


> My writing teacher wrote "TRITE" in the margin of a short story. Message received!
> 
> She disliked me on a personal level, but she still helped me immensely.
> 
> I actually prefer kind but direct critique. I don't like the phrase "brutally honest" because you need not be brutal to be honest. I prefer to be compassionately, directly honest.


You're my kind of reader.

I think the mantra "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all" does a lot more damage than good. OK, it's fine for daily life, for getting on with the neighbours and your colleagues.

However, honesty is priceless to someone who is learning, especially when delivered with explanation in a way that is neither trying to put down the recipient nor trying to cloak the 'bad' stuff into too much BS so that the recipient can zone out.

That someone will then STILL view it as a personal attack is their problem.


----------



## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Michelle Muto said:


> So, David... if the Amish woman loves the butter churn, why is she spanking pumping it? Clearly, it's been a baaaad butter churn.


All I can say is... 50 Shades of Yellow.


----------



## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

There are all kinds of ways to give advice and some are kinder than others. It's also true that no matter how you phrase your advice, some people will never listen. 

I still love the butter churn.


----------



## Guest (May 10, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you feel your book isn't good enough, make it better. No one is stopping anyone from improving their work.


Lisa has a point. The written word, unlike the spoken word, is never final; can be altered, edited, revised. The spoken word is unchangeable, though more spoken words may be piled on. Writing is fluid and wonderful in this way.

A good teacher helps a writer make the writing better. There is almost always something good to build upon. Of all aspects of a story, I care most about voice--if a writer has voice nearly every other aspect can be improved. The greatest novels have unforgettable voice: _Moby Dick, Adventures of Huck Finn, Dark Blonde_---oops sorry. Cut that last book and throw it in the Bazar.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

http://www.amazon.com/Nut-Cream-ebook/dp/B000T90BY2

Don't kill the messenger. Please?


----------



## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Personally, I think that remaining silent while someone labors along under the delusion that they're much better than they actually are is not very kind at all.


Unless they ask, no one makes anyone else responsible for going around telling the world what they are doing wrong.


----------



## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Plato didn't say this. Not kind to point it out, perhaps, but true all the same.


I did wonder about that. It seems like such an unlikely thing to have been recorded. MUst go find out how it started!

(However, not the point!)


----------



## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

The funniest thing about this thread, apart from the butter churns, is that quite a few of you seem to think you know exactly what good writing is, versus badly written books, in terms of sales.

You know, I can look to the book stands and find plenty of terribly written books full of drivel - that are selling like hot cakes.  Equally, I can find loads of well written books that don't sell a bean.

How to get better sales, is a different question than asking if you are any good.  And if they ask, you should always treat people with courtesy and respect.  And if they don't, you should say nothing.

And hope you know what you are talking about.  Amazing how many people feel they are so well qualified, to condemn others. We'll just have to ignore the terribly written books selling like hot cakes.  Don't quite fit the paradigm. 

I'd rather walk a long and lonely road with someone who is both respectful, and a tad humble, than someone who feels it's their role in life, to point out the errors of everyone else.

And I certainly know who I'd ask for help from, should I decide I need it.

Your Mileage May Vary.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

The problem I have with this thread is that the post that inspired it, took place just the other day. I don't think many are in doubt as to who this is about...including the author who posted it.

Two things have become clear to me:

One is that there are a ton of kick-butt funny people here.
The other is that there are many on this board who think Compassion is just a word in the dictionary that falls someplace between Callous and Cruel.

Everyone is different. Some take in information slowly...some are highly sensitive....etc.  Instead of waking up each morning and deciding to be "direct" by telling people exactly where the bear...blah blahs..in the woods, try asking what you can do for someone else to help them along their path.  And if it requires you to show some restraint in your comments...for God's sake....show it.  It won't kill you.


----------



## kea (Jun 13, 2011)

Pure genius! Okay, George and Dave...you need to collaborate on something. Who is with me? You guys are inspirational! And I'm not just "buttering" you up!



George Berger said:


> I dunno about cowbells, but...
> 
> 
> All our curds have come;
> ...


----------



## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> The funniest thing about this thread, apart from the butter churns, is that quite a few of you seem to think you know exactly what good writing is, versus badly written books, in terms of sales.
> 
> You know, I can look to the book stands and find plenty of terribly written books full of drivel - that are selling like hot cakes. Equally, I can find loads of well written books that don't sell a bean.
> 
> ...


You know, unless I find flat-out grammatical errors, I have no clue what "well-written" means. Because I suspect it's largely a matter of taste. I've come to understand that after judging tons of writing contests and realizing that what I like is not what others like and vice versa.

In fact, I've discovered that books I just can't stomach (writing-wise) are those most likely/destined to be the most popular.

So I no longer judge books by the way they are written. It's just a matter of taste.


----------



## kea (Jun 13, 2011)

*fierce applause*



JeanneM said:


> The problem I have with this thread is that the post that inspired it, took place just the other day. I don't think many are in doubt as to who this is about...including the author who posted it.
> 
> Two things have become clear to me:
> 
> ...


----------



## Guest (May 10, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> I didn't suggest you do any of the above. Okay, toning it down for you, let me put it this way, let's say a homely girl gets herself all dolled up to go out in the hopes of meeting a guy, is it cruel to tell her that no amount of makeup will do a d*mn thing for her, she's still ugly? It's the truth, after all, right? Again, if you read my post, I think it is important for us to tell the truth to authors, but I also think it's cruel on some level.


We aren't talking about "homely girls" going out in hopes of meeting a guy. We're talking about a homely girl getting dolled up thinking she is going to steal Brad Pitt from Angelina Jolie. CONTEXT MATTERS. CONTEXT ALWAYS MATTERS. I believe that everyone has a unique skill. The problem is that many of us chase after things that are counter to our skill set.

I was in a workshop once with a girl who was a horrible writer. Part of the workshop was reading and critiquing each other's work. There was really nothing good that could be said about her work. Maybe "That's awesome that you use proper capitalization!" But that would have been patronizing. At one point in the workshop she just stopped talking to anyone and started doodling in her notebook. I happened to look over and she was AMAZING! She had a natural talent that was uncanny. But she had been focusing all her attention on this dream of being a writer. We actually started to talk about her drawings in the workshop because they were that damn good. Long story short, I crossed paths with her a few years later and she's a professional graphic designer now and very happy.

The point is, she needed that workshop...but not for the reason she thought she did. We all sometimes need that kick in the butt to put us in the right direction.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> We aren't talking about "homely girls" going out in hopes of meeting a guy. We're talking about a homely girl getting dolled up thinking she is going to steal Brad Pitt from Angelina Jolie. CONTEXT MATTERS. CONTEXT ALWAYS MATTERS. I believe that everyone has a unique skill. The problem is that many of us chase after things that are counter to our skill set.
> 
> I was in a workshop once with a girl who was a horrible writer. Part of the workshop was reading and critiquing each other's work. There was really nothing good that could be said about her work. Maybe "That's awesome that you use proper capitalization!" But that would have been patronizing. At one point in the workshop she just stopped talking to anyone and started doodling in her notebook. I happened to look over and she was AMAZING! She had a natural talent that was uncanny. But she had been focusing all her attention on this dream of being a writer. We actually started to talk about her drawings in the workshop because they were that d*mn good. Long story short, I crossed paths with her a few years later and she's a professional graphic designer now and very happy.
> 
> The point is, she needed that workshop...but not for the reason she thought she did. We all sometimes need that kick in the butt to put us in the right direction.


Nabbing Brad from Angelina wouldn't be akin to whining that your book isn't selling, that would be whining that you don't have a best seller on the magnitude of a Rowling. And, unlike you, I'm not convinced everyone has a special talent. Again, I advocate telling the truth, but I think there are a lot of writers who have nothing else, and telling them the truth, no matter how gently it's presented makes their lives just a little more miserable than they were. Before they had nothing, but had some hope. Now they have nothing and have no hope. You're comfortable dashing those hopes, and that's fine. I have no qualms with that, but I don't have the stomach for it.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> The problem I have with this thread is that the post that inspired it, took place just the other day. I don't think many are in doubt as to who this is about...including the author who posted it.
> 
> Everyone is different. Some take in information slowly...some are highly sensitive....etc. Instead of waking up each morning and deciding to be "direct" by telling people exactly where the bear...blah blahs..in the woods, try asking what you can do for someone else to help them along their path. And if it requires you to show some restraint in your comments...for God's sake....show it. It won't kill you.


You realize who this is/was about, and you really think that further months of touchy-feely snowflake-coddling were going to do any good? They had zero interest in actually taking anyone's advice; all they wanted was validation of their increasingly erratic decisions, and became rather belligerent as it failed to materialize.

There was a guy on here a couple of days ago, posting about how much he'd spent to produce his first book, and how poorly it was selling. At least a half-dozen people immediately told him he needed a new editor, with some going to far as to suggest he'd been ripped off by his current one. Should we have, I don't know, told him to try marketing his book to ESL students instead, in the hopes they wouldn't notice all the fundamental problems?



Morgan Gallagher said:


> The funniest thing about this thread, apart from the butter churns, is that quite a few of you seem to think you know exactly what good writing is, versus badly written books, in terms of sales.
> 
> You know, I can look to the book stands and find plenty of terribly written books full of drivel - that are selling like hot cakes. Equally, I can find loads of well written books that don't sell a bean.
> 
> How to get better sales, is a different question than asking if you are any good.


I like to cook. I have no formal education, beyond home-ec classes several decades ago, and what my mother taught me growing up. I'm by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be one. But I think that if someone gives me a piece of half-raw rotted chicken that they pan-roasted in a vinegar-mustard sauce, then plated onto undercooked wild rice in a bed of wilted cabbage, and asks me whether garnishing it with ketchup or mayonnaise will impress their girlfriend's mother more, telling them that without fixing the more fundamental problems no amount of garnishment is going to make the thing palatable is A, in their own best long-term interest and B, an opinion I'm adequately qualified to make.

I like to write. I have no formal education, beyond various classes several decades ago, and what I've managed to teach myself growing up. I'm by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be one. But I think that if someone gives me a piece of confusing fiction that they published to poor sales, laden with inarguable typos and sprinkled with universally-frowned-upon mistakes, and asks whether streamlining the book's website is going to generate more sales than marketing the thing to the wrong demographic at comic conventions, telling them that without fixing the fundamental problems no marketing tactic in the world is going to make the thing sell well is A, in their own best long-term interest and B, an opinion I'm adequately qualified to make.

The terribly-written books full of drivel that sell like hot cakes are, by and large, free of typographic errors, incorrect grammar, and egregiously purple prose, and I dare say any given example is free of two of the above. That's not the case for the book that prompted this week's cage matches...



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> We aren't talking about "homely girls" going out in hopes of meeting a guy. We're talking about a homely girl getting dolled up thinking she is going to steal Brad Pitt from Angelina Jolie. CONTEXT MATTERS. CONTEXT ALWAYS MATTERS.


Maybe more like a homely guy getting dressed to the nines to try and steal Portia de Rossi from Ellen Degeneres? 

Either way, homeliness is subjective, honestly. Rules of grammar and spelling and punctuation, not so much so.


----------



## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

I've missed you, George.


----------



## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

So my take away is:

*Butter sex sells*.

And
*
Don't whine on the Kindle Boards?*

I mean, that is sort of whiny in and of itself. This is the first place I think to go when I'm having a bad writerly moment (like today, when my bank REFUSED to deposit this damn Kindle UK check saying it was too small. What the *&#@$# am I supposed to do with it? It's over $100 US. Grr.)

I don't mind the whiners. I often learn from other authors' answers to them, and since new people are constantly *churning* through, it's helpful to see not everyone is a mega-seller.


----------



## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

I didnt read the thread in question.  It didnt interest me, so I ignored it and moved on.  That's what grown ups do.  They dont spend days on end throwing dirt in someone's face and then patting themselves on the back for it as if it's a public service they are performing.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Either way, homeliness is subjective, honestly. Rules of grammar and spelling and punctuation, not so much so.


I would argue that grammar, spelling, and punctuation are not the reason most people who aren't selling don't sell. There's a LOT to writing that IS subjective like "interesting plot", "graceful prose", etc...How do you teach someone to come up with interesting plots? How do you teach someone to turn a phrase in some new and cool way? How do you teach someone to create interesting characters? That's not makeup, that's an inherent part of the writer. In fact, I would argue it's easier to make yourself pretty because you can get plastic surgery. There's no plastic surgery that you can have to make yourself interesting. Doesn't matter how many books you read, if you're dull, you're not going to compile that information you might've memorized into something fresh and entertaining to read.


----------



## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

Oh dear.

Well, as some of you pointed out this was about a thread here, I went and found it, and read it.

Ouch.

This is an awful lot of energy being spent on ... nothing... Internetz 1, Peoples 0. *doh!*










Let's move on. What are people planning on having for tea? Think it might be a curry night here, in cold, gloomy, windy, frigid Scotland.


----------



## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> I dont really see anything constructive, professional or mature about kicking someone when they're down.


^I guess this just about sums it up from where I'm standing. This and what Jeanne said above.


----------



## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

People can feel free to drop out of writing! Doesn't bother me if my competition wants to eliminate itself. 

I follow someone on Twitter whom I like and has a very outgoing style. She finally wrote a book and put it up on kdp and I guess she was expecting all her twitter followers to immediately go and buy it. When in a couple of days she didn't have 500 sales from all her followers, she became angry. She yelled at us over twitter. She complained and was super bitter. 

The thing was, though, none of her tweets about her book indicated any value. I couldn't tell what the book was about, what genre it was, what about it I might like! No quotes from it, no taglines. She gave no reason to buy it other than "Hey, I have a book."

I'm slow with my decisions to buy something. I might have worked myself up to buying her book. Her behavior was such a huge turn off that I unfollowed.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Morgan Gallagher said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Well, as some of you pointed out this was about a thread here, I went and found it, and read it.
> 
> ...


I LOVE that drawing. And I confess, it hits a little too close to home.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

The person's personality doesn't matter.  Their response doesn't matter.  Compassion does.  Compassion always does.  

I have nothing else to contribute. You either get it or you don't.


----------



## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Because many times the author has put forth his best effort, he has picked at the story, he has re-written it, he got professional editing done, he had betas read it, etc...And it's still not good enough. And then he thought maybe it was just the story and he went out and wrote another book, different story. Maybe even a different genre. Telling the author it's not good enough in that instance is essntially telling the author that he's not smart enough to write a good book. Any dreams he might've had are flushed. It is cruel. It is also merciful, because playing along and telling him the book is good keeps his hopes up, keeps him strung along, writing more bad books. Since most of us don't really know whether the author has put forth his best effort or not, we don't know if telling him it's not good enough is the nail in the coffin of those dreams, so most people assume the author simply hasn't tried enough, and encourage him and keep him trying by playing along and pretending it's some quirk of fate that has nailed him to his cross. And it's twice as hard to be honest and truthful, if it's someone you've befriended. People just have to figure this stuff out for themselves. We are all alone on that island of doubt. My advice is never give up. Assume it's something other than your writing and write the next thing, trying to improve. Maybe you're being naive, but it's better than surrendering when you haven't fulfilled your potential. But my advice to anyone who's critiquing another's work, is be honest. You owe it to them, even if it's that last nail in the coffin.


This thread has ran its course so this is my last post on this matter. Writing is hard but marketing is even harder for those of us who don't know how to do it. It has nothing to do with "how good your book is" but more of "how many hours can you spend making a pest out of yourself promoting it." My books are good, okay? I'm a good writer but before KDP came to the rescue I was one of those authors who were just sitting there with no sales because my feeble attempts were for naught. There might many out there like me who produced good work but are not getting any help marketing, they haven't signed on to KDP, they haven't done much except expect that readers somehow will find them, so they come to us for help, as I once did and normally they get it. There are a lot of good, kind writers out there willing to help. But generally assuming their books are lousy is unfair, just like assuming the big sellers out there are writing masterpieces is equally unfair. I took exception to the original post because it was smug and "mocking the whiners of the world." But hey, we all live in glass houses and this is a very fluid business, you might be a big seller today and a lousy one tomorrow, so am I to assume you lost the formula if your sales suddenly stop? Am I to assume you are now writing dribble? That's all I'm saying and now adieu to this subject and bonne chance et bon courage to everyone, to all the winners and losers of the world, and especially to all the whiners.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> However, honesty is priceless to someone who is learning, especially when delivered with explanation in a way that is neither trying to put down the recipient nor trying to cloak the 'bad' stuff into too much BS so that the recipient can zone out.


Wouldn't price of that honesty to the recipient be set by the recipient?



> The funniest thing about this thread, apart from the butter churns, is that quite a few of you seem to think you know exactly what good writing is, versus badly written books, in terms of sales.


It seems a few are distressed when others don't signal agreement by accepting their advice.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> I didnt read the thread in question. It didnt interest me, so I ignored it and moved on. That's what grown ups do. They dont spend days on end throwing dirt in someone's face and then patting themselves on the back for it as if it's a public service they are performing.


Professionalism cuts both ways. Suppose a writer asks you why his book isn't selling and why it's getting such bad reviews. You read it and see that it's terribly written. And you can see that he's down. What's the grown-up and professional thing to do in that case?

My point in asking is not to get you to concede that telling him the truth is a public service and that it's always the professional thing to do. My point is that it's not a foregone conclusion that lying to him or trying to avoid saying anything at all is the grown-up and professional thing to do.

I should mention that I didn't participate in that unnamed thread either, because I had a pretty good idea what one of the problems was and good reason to believe (based on previous remarks) that the recipient wouldn't be receptive-regardless of whether I had anything of value to contribute. But supposed I did have something to offer. Did I do the right thing in avoiding it? Was I a beacon of compassion for avoiding it? Or was I really just avoiding the shrapnel that inevitably flies when false perception collides with reality? The latter is the truth, but I wouldn't say that professionalism came to bear.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

I dreamed about this last night...


It's early morning
The sunlight hurts
Last night was creamy
And full of curds
The cow is mooing
And filled to the brim
So what is wrong
With gallons of skim?
The goat is hungry
She needs the pail
So treat her gently
And milk her well
More days to come
New cheeses to do
I've got to leave
It's time for caboc

Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid
Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid

The curd is building
It starts to clot
cheese is coming
there will be lots
All out of rennet
the stores are closed
Just have to make it
With some lemon juice
The cream is clotting
I have to go
The farmer's hungry
He runs the show
He's licking his lips
He's ready to win
On the hunt tonight
For fresh-drawn beesting

Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid
Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid
Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid
Here I am, milk you like a dairy maid​
It makes about as much sense as the original, I'm afraid. (



 by The Scorpions.)


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Funny. The music didn't kick in until I got to the chorus....so I had to go back and re-read it.


----------



## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

I'll take whining over mockery any day...


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Nabbing Brad from Angelina wouldn't be akin to whining that your book isn't selling, that would be whining that you don't have a best seller on the magnitude of a Rowling. And, unlike you, I'm not convinced everyone has a special talent. Again, I advocate telling the truth, but I think there are a lot of writers who have nothing else, and telling them the truth, no matter how gently it's presented makes their lives just a little more miserable than they were. Before they had nothing, but had some hope. Now they have nothing and have no hope. You're comfortable dashing those hopes, and that's fine. I have no qualms with that, but I don't have the stomach for it.


The above is the best insight of this thread, IMO: context matters in deciding how to respond to a complaining post.

Is the poster genuinely asking for the kind of constructive criticism PJJones described? If so, by all means, give it -- and honestly, too. This is a writer who wants help, is willing to hear strong criticism in order to improve her/his work, and isn't likely to be psychologically crushed by a blunt response.

Does this person really just want to vent and receive a supportive or encouraging response? If so, would-be advisers should restrain themselves and let others dispense sympathy.

Is this an obnoxious person whose complaining genuinely offends others because of its I-am-God's-gift-to-readers-and-you-are-morons tone? If so, the troll-hunters should take that person down a notch, and more compassionate types should pass the thread over so they don't have to witness the carnage.

In other words, responding appropriately to others requires us to be careful readers, seeing what's between the lines and shaping our response accordingly. Being a blunt object that whacks every nail the same way isn't optimal.

Heck, if a bunch of writers can't read carefully, recognize the "genre" of someone's post, and shape what they write in response, who can?


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Heck, if a bunch of writers can't read carefully, recognize the "genre" of someone's post, and shape what they write in response, who can?


I agree with you in principle, but there's a snag in practice: the writer has to be clear about whether he's really seeking feedback or whether he's just seeking comfort. That means the OP has to be honest with himself. Some people are capable of it and they come out and say that's what they're looking for. But sometimes compassion-seekers dress up their compassion seeking as feedback seeking. To use your term, they don't make use of the right genre when they post. Then when the feedback comes, they lash out at those who answered the call.

Then the compassionate people weigh in about how everyone should be more compassionate-I mean no disrespect by that, by the way, but they also have to realize that it's not always obvious when someone's after the straight goods and when someone's after compassion. Bear in mind too that compassion isn't very useful to someone with a technical problem, so compassion isn't the perfect, faultless answer to everything.


----------



## elalond (May 11, 2011)

I don't mind whining as long as it's labelled as whining (in the title line or at the beginning of the post). A good whine now and then is good for the soul, I believe.

I also believe that writing is a craft and like all craft it can be taught. It helps if you have talent for it and can be excruciating learning it when you don't. But everything is possible if your desire for learning is strong enough and if the urge to tell stories pushes you froward no matter what. And if so, then your dreams won't be crushed when somebody tells you that your writing sucks, on the contrary, when the errors are pointed out (you know that) it will help your forward toward realizing your dreams. The best way to get better is when somebody points out your mistakes (no matter if that 'pointing' is done compassionately or bluntly). Not all people have this kind of attitude toward learning, but they, unfortunately, take an advice as a personal attack and if so, it's better to leave them be. You can't help somebody who isn't willing to listen. IMO



> -The Butterchun series:
> 
> * The Way The World Churns
> * Butter Me Up
> ...


That sounds very promising. Is it going to be available for pre-order?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Becca Mills said:


> Heck, if a bunch of writers can't read carefully, recognize the "genre" of someone's post, and shape what they write in response, who can?


I'm not a writer, I'm a reader. And I've learned over the years that what you write and what I read may not be the same thing. Two people may read a post and think completely different things are meant by it (I speak from recent experience here, another KBer and I read the same post and responded differently). So in the end, we all have to decide how we are going to read all posts. Basically, if I think someone is asking for advice (i.e. they do not clearly state they do NOT want advice), I may give some. And I will take all posts giving advice as trying to be helpful. Life's too short to get bent out of shape by what people say on the internet.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

WHDean said:


> But sometimes compassion-seekers dress up their compassion seeking as feedback seeking. To use your term, they don't make use of the right genre when they post. Then when the feedback comes, they lash out at those who answered the call.


Yeah, you're right -- the OP's genre may be disguised, at first. But I bet that, in most cases, it emerges pretty quickly. For instance, in the case of the poster who prompted this thread, it was clear from his "sequel" what genre he fit into. At that point, I think the kind hearts could've stepped out and let the carpet-bombing proceed.


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## Guest (May 10, 2012)

*Merriam-Webster:* sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it

*American Heritage: * Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it

Nowhere in either definition does it say "keep your mouth shut or only tell people what they want to hear." In fact, the heart of compassion is to not only recognize suffering, _but to be proactive and attempt to allieviate it._ Much like sometimes a doctor must cause pain to a patient in order to save the patient's life, sometimes one most be willing to speak the hard truths in order to stop a cycle of dissappointment that leads to more suffering.

I got back to my story about my three page rejection letter. THAT HURT LIKE HELL when I first read it. Under the definition of "compassion" some people are using, the editor should have just sent me a form rejection letter to avoid crushing my dreams. But instead, he decided to be honest and direct and tell me what I needed to hear...even when at the time I didn't want to hear it. It made me stronger. It made me smarter. it made me a better game designer. It made me capable of avoiding suffering in the future by learning from my errors.

I think some people confusion compassion with a fear of hurting someone's feelings. And no, I'm not saying people should go out of their way to hurt someone's feelings. But honesty should not be sacrificed on the altar of faux compassion, particularly when that honesty is the only way to be truly compassionate and attempt to allievate future suffering. Let's not confuse compassion with enabling.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> Is this an obnoxious person whose complaining genuinely offends others because of its I-am-God's-gift-to-readers-and-you-are-morons tone? If so, the troll-hunters should take that person down a notch, and more compassionate types should pass the thread over so they don't have to witness the carnage.


Except that we don't call people trolls here on KindleBoards; it's considered a four letter word. And we ask that people assume good faith unless proven otherwise. And we don't allow carnage.  I've removed comments referring to a poster in another thread as a troll.

Everyone--

If you want to have a general discussion on how to handle individuals who ask for advice, that's fine. If you want to bash a fellow member for a discussion in a different thread, I'll be locking this thread, sorry.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> My point is that it's not a foregone conclusion that lying to him or trying to avoid saying anything at all is the grown-up and professional thing to do.


I don't see giving advice as part of the writing profession, but it does seem an important part of the editing profession.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Well, I'm going to give honest opinions when people come on here and complain that their works aren't selling (and I have time to respond). Sometimes that opinion might actually be "I think you've got everything in place. You just need some luck." But the vast majority of the time, I'll offer opinions on what they might try to make the work better. If it's upsetting to some of you, I can advise you about how to put me on your ignore list.

And some of you must have done some extremely light reading of that thread to come to the conclusion that it was detrimental to the OP or other authors in a similar situation. The OP didn't gain anything from it (at least anything he's been willing to publicly admit), because he refused to listen to any of it. However, much of the advice was given honestly and in good faith. I've had messages from other authors about helpful advice given in that thread, so I'm positive that the thread was helpful to some.

Most of us come to these boards because we like the people here, authors freely give advice, and the Writer's Cafe offers a good pulse on the state of independent authorship. I don't know anyone who comes here for the whining. Most of us just try to apply the second part (freely giving advice) because we completely empathize with the mindset of authors in that position. We've been there and done that. PJ is just giving advice on how to deal with this mindset in a more direct manner than some of you might like. Essentially, she's saying that whining tends to not be productive. Requesting feedback, listening to the feedback, and acting on it if appropriate, is productive. If you need to whine, it may be in your best interests to create a private Facebook page for you and your author friends to go to where you can let it all out in private. Threads like this one and the thread in question for Ladystar tend to get mentioned on reader-heavy areas like the Amazon forums, where the tirades can result in lost readership and negative word-of-mouth. Try a search for "Authors Behaving Badly" or "Bad Authors" in Amazon to see what I mean.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> And some of you must have done some extremely light reading of that thread to come to the conclusion that it was detrimental to the OP or other authors in a similar situation.


I don't even know what thread we're talking about. Mine's all hypothetical response to the OP and what followed. But I'm assuming it's the same as the other thousand or so whining threads that came before it.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Getting back on off-topic, I love George's Don't Fear The Creamer (I do imagine Christopher Walken playing the cowbell in the background).

Has anybody mentioned that cheese goes very nicely with whine wine?

Fifty Shades of Julie - Don't be afraid of the collar-go ahead, give it a try.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I haven't read anything in this thread, because it's for whiny authors, and I'm a kickass author.  Oh, wait, I'm lying. I whine sometimes, and I'm totally reading every damn post until this baby gets locked up.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I have a philosophy on marketing books. Check out what the tops in your genre are doing blurb and cover wise. Don't copy, but find a way for yours to look like it belongs with that group. 

If something isn't working, do something different. If things are working, don't change it because Amazon will change it soon enough for you. Whatever you do, don't whine, but ask for feedback knowing you're going to get some that may hurt a little. It's like getting a shot of antibiotics, the pain is momentary. But you have a game plan on what to change to make your book the best it can be and hopefully, up sales.


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## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> The OP didn't gain anything from it (at least anything he's been willing to publicly admit), because he refused to listen to any of it.


Actually, based on advice here, the OP changed the cover, the blurb, his website, and was reworking his marketing plan, as he said many times throughout that thread. Not true that he refused to listen. Listening goes both ways.

And he thanked me privately for my suggestion on his writing style issue, said it was very helpful to him.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Most people don't object so much to giving or even receiving honest advice, I think. They object to giving it in a way that is unpalatable for the one who is asking.

How the message is delivered is at least as important as the content. If the receiver shuts down, the message misses its target. In fact, it could as well not have been sent at all. It's not a very intelligent way of communicating, in my opinion. A good teacher knows this. On the other hand, I suppose it doesn't matter if you're only interested in showing off. Then you can use your opinion - and it is _nothing_ more than your opinion, based on your own limited experience - to be so-called brutally honest. Never mind that a more constructive approach _could_ have had some effect.

And compassion is not a four letter word.


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## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

Andrew, what you've said is certainly true in my world.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

elalond said:


> I don't mind whining as long as it's labelled as whining (in the title line or at the beginning of the post). A good whine now and then is good for the soul, I believe.
> 
> I also believe that writing is a craft and like all craft it can be taught. It helps if you have talent for it and can be excruciating learning it when you don't. But everything is possible if your desire for learning is strong enough and if the urge to tell stories pushes you froward no matter what. And if so, then your dreams won't be crushed when somebody tells you that your writing sucks, on the contrary, when the errors are pointed out (you know that) it will help your forward toward realizing your dreams. The best way to get better is when somebody points out your mistakes (no matter if that 'pointing' is done compassionately or bluntly). Not all people have this kind of attitude toward learning, but they, unfortunately, take an advice as a personal attack and if so, it's better to leave them be. You can't help somebody who isn't willing to listen. IMO
> That sounds very promising. Is it going to be available for pre-order?


Not all crafts can be successfully taught to everyone.

In spite of my granny's best efforts my knitting looked like a huge snarl. I simply could NOT learn to do it well. Sure I could make the basic stitches. That could be taught, but the ability to do it WELL could not be taught. I simply didn't have the "nack" for it.

Many people who post that they aren't doing well at writing won't improve and don't want to know the truth. Unless I KNOW that they really are asking for advice, I don't give it. If someone else wants to, that's fine.

I would just rather not later hear THEM *whining * about their advice not being taken, because any time you give advice about anything there is a good chance it will be rejected.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Phyllis Lily Jules said:


> Actually, based on advice here, the OP changed the cover, the blurb, his website, and was reworking his marketing plan, as he said many times throughout that thread. Not true that he refused to listen. Listening goes both ways.
> 
> And he thanked me privately for my suggestion on his writing style issue, said it was very helpful to him.


I guess you don't know how this really works, so let me fill you in:

1. OP asks what's wrong.

2. Compassionate People say, "You're great! Don't worry." But they don't even hint that anything could be wrong.

3. Big Meanie points out (bluntly) that there's a problem with the writing.

4. OP flies into rage, blames Big Meanie for his/her problems.

5. Compassionate People take opportunity to wedge themselves in: now they decide there is, in fact, something wrong with the book, but the Big Meanie said it all wrong.

6. OP admits compassionate people may be right but that Big Meanie is mean.

7. Compassionate People take credit for their painless tutoring and complain about how Big Meanie should be more like themselves.

The essential part of this drama is that the Compassionate People never say anything critical until Big Meanie provides cover by playing the scapegoat. It's like good cop/bad cop except that the good cops pretend they were the ones who made all the good stuff happen.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

8. Advisors whine because a single OP rejected their advice.


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## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

WHDean said:


> I guess you don't know how this really works, so let me fill you in:


Yes, you've filled me in as to what your opinion is on how it works. My opinion in different.


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## 39179 (Mar 16, 2011)

WHDean said:


> I guess you don't know how this really works, so let me fill you in:
> 
> 1. OP asks what's wrong.
> 
> ...


Absolutely wrong. Good advice is counseling. Bad advice is grandstanding. Your above example falls clearly in the latter.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

WHDean said:


> I guess you don't know how this really works, so let me fill you in:
> 
> 1. OP asks what's wrong.
> 
> ...





Terrence OBrien said:


> 8. Advisors whine because a single OP rejected their advice.


9. Author writes fictional scenario "loosely based on forum drama," using broad generalizations, simplifying events and making them fit preconceived conclusion, from omniscient third person POV, making him feel superior to OP, BM and CP.


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## morantis (May 8, 2012)

This may initially sound off topic, but it isn't.  I hate it when I am driving and someone comes flying up the side trying to get in front of you because they need the lane you are in.  It is the lingering fact that people refuse to accept life as it is.  If you are in the wrong lane and can't get over, then turn the other direction and come back around.  If you wrote a book and your marketing is not working then either change the marketing method or write another book.  Trust me, if being angry and whining about something had the power to change it, then I would make whining a full time job, but it just doesn't do anything.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Not all crafts can be successfully taught to everyone.
> 
> In spite of my granny's best efforts my knitting looked like a huge snarl. I simply could NOT learn to do it well. Sure I could make the basic stitches. That could be taught, but the ability to do it WELL could not be taught. I simply didn't have the "nack" for it.
> 
> ...


If you want to be good in something, you have to work on in constantly. I bet if you continued with knitting you would over the years become a good knitter, but you would probably never be able to make your own patterns though.

I'm even more stingy with my advices and opinions than you. My grammar sucks, but I'm fairly good at other aspects of writing (or so I like to imagine). A person has to ask me personally for my opinion; I don't offer my advices via forums. It takes time and effort to analyse other people's flaws and since in lot of cases people actually resent that (like you said: 'don't want to know the truth'), I don't bother. But I do appreciate people who do bother. Just by lurking on this forum I learned a lot from them.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

elalond said:


> If you want to be good in something, you have to work on in constantly.


There is a great book called _Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America_ that I think people should read. In essence, the idea that all problems and shortcomings can be overcome by happy thoughts and hard work actually is detrimental to human development because it makes people at fault for things that they have no control over. Essentially, merely telling someone "if you want to be good at something, you have to work on it constantly" has a very real inference that she CHOSE not to be good at it and was simply too lazy to excel.

I also think this idea that "anyone" can do something by simply wanting it bad enough actually diminishes the talent of those who do something well. Dismissing a craft as something that "anyone can do" if they work hard enough implies that the craft itself requires no skill. Writing a book or knitting a scarf or painting a portrait becomes no different from flipping a burger or digging a hole or washing a dish.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Not just skill. Talent. I don't fall of horses much but I'll never be a show jumper or a jockey. Never. Ever. No talent for it.

Write the million words and if you have any talent you will get to be good. If not, you will have wasted a lot of time. Same with a lot of things. Ain't life cruel?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Chris Northern said:


> Not just skill. Talent. I don't fall of horses much but I'll never be a show jumper or a jockey. Never. Ever. No talent for it.
> 
> Write the million words and if you have any talent you will get to be good. If not, you will have wasted a lot of time. Same with a lot of things. Ain't life cruel?


I wouldn't call it wasted. At least now I write impeccable letters at work and I know a few more words than I knew before. But, yeah, if I flop, I will look back and lament all the time I could've been drunk in front of the television or making something down in the shop instead of being drunk at the laptop.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

morantis said:


> This may initially sound off topic, but it isn't. I hate it when I am driving and someone comes flying up the side trying to get in front of you because they need the lane you are in. It is the lingering fact that people refuse to accept life as it is. If you are in the wrong lane and can't get over, then turn the other direction and come back around. If you wrote a book and your marketing is not working then either change the marketing method or write another book. Trust me, if being angry and whining about something had the power to change it, then I would make whining a full time job, but it just doesn't do anything.


When this happens to you, do you then accelerate your vehicle and block the guy from getting off his exit. Then you get into a game of chicken where each of you guns your engines and cuts each other off. And then, do you become morally indignant when the guy flips you the bird?

Just wondering.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> When this happens to you, do you then accelerate your vehicle and block the guy from getting off his exit. Then you get into a game of chicken where each of you guns your engines and cuts each other off. And then, do you become morally indignant when the guy flips you the bird?
> 
> Just wondering.


You know, I'm usually the one cutting into the other lane, and I've never gotten flipped off doing it. You would think I would've gotten it a few times by now. I kinda feel guilty going it, but I always give a gratefuul wave, so that makes up for it. Because, my business is always more pressing than all those chumps waiting like sheep in the slow traffic.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> You know, I'm usually the one cutting into the other lane, and I've never gotten flipped off doing it. You would think I would've gotten it a few times by now. I kinda feel guilty going it, but I always give a gratefuul wave, so that makes up for it. Because, my business is always more pressing than all those chumps waiting like sheep in the slow traffic.


I find 9 times out of 10, if I cut in on someone in traffic and wave a "thank you" they wave back and peacefully let me in. Small gestures go a long way to decreasing hostility. It's amazing how accurate this analogy really is.


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Whiny  Barbs and Amazons (authors) need to level up (get craft experience) on minor mobs (preliminary fiction projects) like skeletons (novellas), goat men (genre fiction vignettes) and gargoyle traps (failed novel attempts) before they go straight to catacombs L4 (full-on advertising binges on a single novel) and get their butts kicked by Andariel (established author with a mercilessly helpful attitude, drops good stuff but watch those flame waves).  Especially on hardcore mode (self-publishing/indie publishing without respect for smallpubs).  Get build (craft) advice and reroll as a defensive Pally (write a more informed and conservative project) to get minor drops (sales) and set armor (reviews) before trying that again.  Nub.

Yeah, it comes out this weekend.


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## pulsemyne (May 7, 2012)

I think you also have to remember that indie authors and new authors are trying their best to get themselves heard. I've just released my first book and sales aren't exactly stunning. However as long as people enjoy it that's all that really matters to me. 
Giving out advice to people will help them but its how you phrase that advice that really matters. Just saying "Your book needs editing" doesn't help because the tone sounds negative. It's a blunt statement. Phrasing it as "It needs a bit of work here and there. Particularly around X chapter. However keep at it and you'll have a nice little book" goes much further in encouraging people to look at their work and say to themselves "Yeah he's right". 
That could just be me being very British about the whole thing though.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There is a great book called _Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America_ that I think people should read. In essence, the idea that all problems and shortcomings can be overcome by happy thoughts and hard work actually is detrimental to human development because it makes people at fault for things that they have no control over. Essentially, merely telling someone "if you want to be good at something, you have to work on it constantly" has a very real inference that she CHOSE not to be good at it and was simply too lazy to excel.
> 
> I also think this idea that "anyone" can do something by simply wanting it bad enough actually diminishes the talent of those who do something well. Dismissing a craft as something that "anyone can do" if they work hard enough implies that the craft itself requires no skill. Writing a book or knitting a scarf or painting a portrait becomes no different from flipping a burger or digging a hole or washing a dish.


The introduction of one of my favourite book about writing, Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell, starts: I wasted ten years of prime writing life because of the big Lie. In my twenties, I gave up the dream of becoming a writer because I had been told that writing could not be taught. Writers are born, people said. You either have what it takes or you don't, and if you don't you'll never get it." And ends with: "And I discovered the most incredible thing. The Big Lie was a lie. A person could learn how to write because I was learning."

Maybe "If you want to be good in something, you have to work on in constantly." doesn't apply to everybody, but I do believe that it applies to many. Of course, those without talent have a possibility to become good, but they will probably never excel like those with talent, no matter how much time they spend in learning the craft. And this has nothing to do with laziness. 
I wouldn't say that writing a book or knitting a scarf or painting a portrait is similar to flipping a burger or digging a hole or washing a dish. When did I ever equal craft with a simple manual labour? And I never implied that you don't need skill, only that that skill can be learned.



Chris Northern said:


> Not just skill. Talent. I don't fall of horses much but I'll never be a show jumper or a jockey. Never. Ever. No talent for it.
> 
> Write the million words and if you have any talent you will get to be good. If not, you will have wasted a lot of time. Same with a lot of things. Ain't life cruel?


What is talent? Is it that you go along with horses? Is it that you have the right built to be a jockey? Is it that you automatically know how to make the horse run faster? Or is the desire to become a jockey?

And what means that you have talent in writing? I never occupied myself with do I have a talent or not -- I just want to tell stories -- or noticing other people's talent when reading stories. There were always thing that some people excel at it (strong flow, engaging plot, good twist, great characters, etc.) and some that need a little/some polishing/work (weak flow, dull plot, one dimensional characters, etc.). 
So, what is talent in writing? How do you define it? That if you have a talent your stories will be amazing from the start? That you won't need to work on it to better yourself?


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

Kent Kelly said:


> Whiny Barbs and Amazons (authors) need to level up (get craft experience) on minor mobs (preliminary fiction projects) like skeletons (novellas), goat men (genre fiction vignettes) and gargoyle traps (failed novel attempts) before they go straight to catacombs L4 (full-on advertising binges on a single novel) and get their butts kicked by Andariel (established author with a mercilessly helpful attitude, drops good stuff but watch those flame waves). Especially on hardcore mode (self-publishing/indie publishing without respect for smallpubs). Get build (craft) advice and reroll as a defensive Pally (write a more informed and conservative project) to get minor drops (sales) and set armor (reviews) before trying that again. Nub.
> 
> Yeah, it comes out this weekend.


I love you soooo much right now.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

elalond said:


> And what means that you have talent in writing?


Okay, we're just talking about the part that CAN'T be learned. I think there are two "talents" a writer can have. One is a rhythm, a cadance to the words he/she hears in his head and tranfers onto the page, that is pleasing like a good tune when read. Poor writers are tone deaf when it comes to this. To them, they're just words with a meaning, not words with a meaning that sings in the reader's head. I think people can try to make theirs better by means such as studying poetry, but trying to methodically put the iambic pentameter to every sentence is impossible for a work that's 100k words long. It has to spring from the soul, IMO.

The second thing IMO is plain ol' intelligence. The more intelligent you are, the more likely you are to have a better understanding of character motives. The more likely you are to come up with an imaginative plot. The more likely you are to come up with imaginative ways to condense information such as setting into descriptive paintings with a swift stroke of a brush, rather than having to list the characteristics of that setting by simply jotting down dry information the POV character sees. The more likely you are to pull out effective mataphors and similies.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> In essence, the idea that all problems and shortcomings can be overcome by happy thoughts and hard work actually is detrimental to human development because it makes people at fault for things that they have no control over.


Detrimental to human development? We would have to net the negative effects against the positive. People have made great strides because they had a positive attitude and believed hard work would pay off in the end. The people who crossed oceans in little ships and walked across continents had that positive attitude and did work hard to achieve what they wanted. We are all sitting around enjoying what they and many others accomplished.

I'll throw my lot in with the positive hard workers who believe they can accomplish what they set out to do.

It would be a pretty crappy world if everyone was sad and lazy.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Detrimental to human development? We would have to net the negative effects against the positive. People have made great strides because they had a positive attitude and believed hard work would pay off in the end. The people who crossed oceans in little ships and walked across continents had that positive attitude and did work hard to achieve what they wanted. We are all sitting around enjoying what they and many others accomplished.
> 
> I'll throw my lot in with the positive hard workers who believe they can accomplish what they set out to do.
> 
> It would be a pretty crappy world if everyone was sad and lazy.


Good post.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Phyllis Lily Jules said:


> Yes, you've filled me in as to what your opinion is on how it works. My opinion in different.





Andrew Biss said:


> Absolutely wrong. Good advice is counseling. Bad advice is grandstanding. Your above example falls clearly in the latter.


Let me say, first, that I'm not knocking you for being compassionate, because, as Martha used to say, it's a good thing. And I acknowledge and respect the fact that your intention is to help people and I concede that you've probably helped lots of people. But I reject the implication that your way always works and that it works with everyone or most people. More importantly, I suggest that it only works in most cases when you can play off the Big Meanie-in other words, you can only deliver the helpful advice because Big Meanie said it first.

Need evidence? Have a look at the threads where the meltdowns occur. They follow the pattern I described. As in "real life" situations like these, no one says anything until they have the protection afforded by playing the part of moderate to the extremist. Cops (in movies, at least) consciously employ the same strategy, and inventing extremists (strawmen) is a tried-and-true rhetorical strategy of politicians since politics was invented in the ancient Greek polis. Unions used it as a negotiating tactic, and I know parents who perform this routine to discipline their kids. And believe it or not, some firms and government agencies even hire editors to (more or less) play Big Meanie.

Bottom line. In sensitive cases, none of us is prepared to entertain the possibility of error until we're confronted with reality. Compassionate people know this intuitively, but they're unable to say anything because they know the person can't admit it. Someone else has to say it first so they can swoop in and play nurse. That's why compassionate people shouldn't kid themselves into thinking that they could do it all alone.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

elalond said:


> So, what is talent in writing? How do you define it? That if you have a talent your stories will be amazing from the start? That you won't need to work on it to better yourself?


Sorry for the edit... glitch.

Good question and one oft' addressed. Hard to answer, of course, or it would have been answered to everyone's satisfaction already. The thing that cannot be taught? Doubt it, at least Carl Sagan seemed to master the skills when he'd a mind to. But maybe he had talent before he started? Who knows?

I suspect that every single aspect could be taught to anyone who'd a mind to learn, but where would you start? A facility with language? Best hope you learned that early. Empathy? Utterly necessary but not much mentioned. Self-honesty? Best know how people work and you only have on person who won't lie to you about that, so best make a habit of telling yourself the truth.

Instinct about story? Kind of important to know what stories people will care about, which is what the big sellers have in spades; and it is instinct or Hugh of Wool fame would be able to tell you what it was about his stories that makes readers care. That's talent, but maybe not utterly unlearnable. If you know about people. If you have empathy. If you acquired the habit of self-honesty and know what people are really like because you are one.

Talent is lots of things that don't have much to do with actuall putting words to the page.


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

pulsemyne said:


> I think you also have to remember that indie authors and new authors are trying their best to get themselves heard. I've just released my first book and sales aren't exactly stunning. However as long as people enjoy it that's all that really matters to me.
> Giving out advice to people will help them but its how you phrase that advice that really matters. Just saying "Your book needs editing" doesn't help because the tone sounds negative. It's a blunt statement. Phrasing it as "It needs a bit of work here and there. Particularly around X chapter. However keep at it and you'll have a nice little book" goes much further in encouraging people to look at their work and say to themselves "Yeah he's right".
> That could just be me being very British about the whole thing though.


Re slow sales - that's not unusual. Most get an initial burst (authors friends, family etc) then drop off to virtually nil before slowly building. It's a grass roots thing - it takes a while for your readership to build through word of mouth. Ofc a few ads/ freebie run would speed it up, but 5 sales in week one isn't anything to be overly concerned about. As long as you've got a good book, with a well written blurb and a decent cover it will gain momentum over time, particularly if you release more ebooks.

'Needing editing' can be a very vague one. It might be that it's too long (or too short). A manuscript really should go through a few critique partners/ beta readers pre-release. Anything that doesn't add to the story should go (I keep my occams razor offcuts in another file, that way it feels less savage). If it's just one person that says 'edit more' then ignore 'em... if a whole bunch start then it's time to do a serious rewrite/ edit. Just remember that as the author you've got complete discretion - it's your book. It won't suit everyone, but no books do.

Beyond that, it's a case of get your head down, advertise as much as possible (Use a real marketing plan - if you haven't got one, a quick guide to planning one is up at http://rachelabbottwriter.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/guest-post-more-indie-author-marketing-tips-from-sean-campbell/).


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Let me say, first, that I'm not knocking you for being compassionate, because, as Martha used to say, it's a good thing. And I acknowledge and respect the fact that your intention is to help people and I concede that you've probably helped lots of people. But I reject the implication that your way always works and that it works with everyone or most people. More importantly, I suggest that it only works in most cases when you can play off the Big Meanie-in other words, you can only deliver the helpful advice because Big Meanie said it first.
> 
> Need evidence? Have a look at the threads where the meltdowns occur. They follow the pattern I described. As in "real life" situations like these, no one says anything until they have the protection afforded by playing the part of moderate to the extremist. Cops (in movies, at least) consciously employ the same strategy, and inventing extremists (strawmen) is a tried-and-true rhetorical strategy of politicians since politics was invented in the ancient Greek polis. Unions used it as a negotiating tactic, and I know parents who perform this routine to discipline their kids. And believe it or not, some firms and government agencies even hire editors to (more or less) play Big Meanie.
> 
> Bottom line. In sensitive cases, none of us is prepared to entertain the possibility of error until we're confronted with reality. Compassionate people know this intuitively, but they're unable to say anything because they know the person can't admit it. Someone else has to say it first so they can swoop in and play nurse. That's why compassionate people shouldn't kid themselves into thinking that they could do it all alone.


It's okay, you don't have to say Big Meanie, you can say Julie. We all know who you're talking about.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> It's okay, you don't have to say Big Meanie, you can say *****. We all know who you're talking about.


He was trying to be compassionate.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Detrimental to human development? We would have to net the negative effects against the positive. People have made great strides because they had a positive attitude and believed hard work would pay off in the end. The people who crossed oceans in little ships and walked across continents had that positive attitude and did work hard to achieve what they wanted. We are all sitting around enjoying what they and many others accomplished.
> 
> I'll throw my lot in with the positive hard workers who believe they can accomplish what they set out to do.
> 
> It would be a pretty crappy world if everyone was sad and lazy.


You're conflating attitudes or character traits that conduce to success with a catch-all adjective for those attitudes and traits, namely, "positive thinking." If someone succeeds because they worked hard, and they worked hard because they believed hard works pays off, they succeeded because they worked hard and believed it would pay off. Positive thinking is entirely superfluous in explaining how x got from point A to point B.

At best, positive thinking is just a name for beliefs like "hard work pays off," which do the real job of motivating people to succeed. At worst, it's a form of self-induced delusion, where you believe that entertaining only the possibility of success and hearing only the voices of like-minded "positive people" suffices for success. I don't think I need to point out that it doesn't, but I will suggest that it's a kind of pathology that's best resisted.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> It's okay, you don't have to say Big Meanie, you can say Julie. We all know who you're talking about.


Sure, Julie is the Big Meanie par excellence. But others play the role, often unintentionally. They usually get crapped on for their efforts (and, no, I'm not talking about me).



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> He was trying to be compassionate.


I'll have you know that the Pope himself is sending me a special medal for compassion. I think it's called the Just Like Jesus Medal, a moniker that does fit me rather well.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Talent is the ease with which a skill comes to you. 

If you are a "talented" hockey player then you only need to practice 12 hours a day for the first 20 years of your life. If you're not talented then you need to practice 16 hours a day. (Oh, you're going to mention genetic physical attributes like size? Explain that to 5'6" Theo Fleury.)

if you are a "talented" writer it only takes you 1,000,000 words to "master" the craft. If you're not talented then it might take 2,000,000 or 3,000,000. If you quit before you've mastered it, it doesn't make you "lazy".

I almost feel it's an insult to say someone that has put in hundreds of thousands of hours of work and succeeds is "talented"


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## BBGriffith (Mar 13, 2012)

Stephen King once famously wrote, “While it is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and while it is equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good one, it is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication, and timely help, to make a good writer out of a merely competent one.”

Which I think can be loosely translated to read: If you’re not born a great writer, you’ll never be one. If you’re a bad writer, you’re out of luck. But if you’re an okay writer, there’s an off chance that you can be made good.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

I have nothing much more to contribute other than I really appreciate the opinions here, and also the awesome poems and parodies. Thanks!


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

BBGriffith said:


> Stephen King once famously wrote, "While it is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and while it is equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good one, it is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication, and timely help, to make a good writer out of a merely competent one."
> 
> Which I think can be loosely translated to read: If you're not born a great writer, you'll never be one. If you're a bad writer, you're out of luck. But if you're an okay writer, there's an off chance that you can be made good.


This is what I think we were getting at viz talent. No sense pretending everyone can write well enough for people to want to read the product. It ain't so.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Sure, Julie is the Big Meanie par excellence. But others play the role


Yeah, Krista's pretty good at it, too.


WHDean said:


> They usually get crapped on for their efforts (and, no, I'm not talking about me).


Meh, it's a message board. Poop happens. At least the author gets a variety of support, the tough love, and the placating kind as well to choose from. In the end, it's all support, in its own way.


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## JacksonJones (Feb 20, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I also think this idea that "anyone" can do something by simply wanting it bad enough actually diminishes the talent of those who do something well. Dismissing a craft as something that "anyone can do" if they work hard enough implies that the craft itself requires no skill. Writing a book or knitting a scarf or painting a portrait becomes no different from flipping a burger or digging a hole or washing a dish.


That's an interesting thought. I think I like it.

I'm always confused by people saying stuff like "you deserve it." What does that mean? They deserve it like a soldier who gets wounded in combat deserves a Purple Heart? I don't think so.

I always figure that people deserve the opportunity to try to do something, to start a business or attempt whatever. But I don't think they deserve anything beyond that. Thinking you automatically deserve success sounds like some kind of free-government-cheese program. When we were kids, if we started acting like we deserved stuff, the Parent would kick our little ----s.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Talent is the ease with which a skill comes to you.
> 
> If you are a "talented" hockey player then you only need to practice 12 hours a day for the first 20 years of your life. If you're not talented then you need to practice 16 hours a day. (Oh, you're going to mention genetic physical attributes like size? Explain that to 5'6" Theo Fleury.)
> 
> ...


I found myself nodding while reading this. Talent is such a_ je ne sais quoi _thing, isn't it? And it's hard to tell how much talent and how much effort the final product contains. 
Well, there's one place where you can see the raw talent in abundance. On Fanficton.net. But does that mean that all those talented people will some day become authors of bestseller just because they are talented? Or even write a book with original characters?


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I almost feel it's an insult to say someone that has put in hundreds of thousands of hours of work and succeeds is "talented"


_Talent _ is one of those bivalent words. On the one hand, calling someone talented is shorthand for saying they're good at what they do-"He's definitely talented." On the other hand, it's a way of diminishing someone's accomplishments-"We can't all have a talent for it"-as if being able to write was akin to being able to eat spicy food without getting heartburn.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I agree that calling someone talented doesn't account for all the hard work they did to grow that talent, but ... at least writers aren't actresses, who are often introduced as "the lovely and talented."


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

WHDean said:


> _Talent _ is one of those bivalent words. On the one hand, calling someone talented is shorthand for saying they're good at what they do-"He's definitely talented." On the other hand, it's a way of diminishing someone's accomplishments-"We can't all have a talent for it"-*as if being able to write was akin to being able to eat spicy food without getting heartburn*.


awesome.


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## Morgan Gallagher (Feb 13, 2011)

Chris Northern said:


> This is what I think we were getting at viz talent. No sense pretending everyone can write well enough for people to want to read the product. It ain't so.


No, that's what some of you were getting at. Some of us were getting at the concept that being kind, and open, and supportive, even when being honest, can help someone move up from 'bad' to 'competent'. Or from 'competent' to 'good'.

Likewise, that human dignity can be respected, whilst also saying "You know, that can be improved. Get back to me if you want my tuppence worth on how."

And that as we all pass on our pathways, lonely, scared, alone, and wondering if we're Good Enough as human beings, we can always say "Hey, it's hard, let me walk a while with you."

It's not about how they react. They are in charge of their destiny. It's about how you react, for you are in charge of your own.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

elalond said:


> Writers are born, people said. You either have what it takes or you don't, and if you don't you'll never get it." And ends with: "And I discovered the most incredible thing. The Big Lie was a lie. A person could learn how to write because I was learning."


The only creative writing I've done in my life is 8 years of describing porn movie titles and descriptions for adult sites.

I'm about to publish my first book, A Sicklove Story: City of Singles.

I guess we'll see if the practice of having to write 5,000 ways to describe a blowjob translates into good storytelling.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

sicklove said:


> The only creative writing I've done in my life is 8 years of describing porn movie titles and descriptions for adult sites.
> 
> I'm about to publish my first book, A Sicklove Story: City of Singles.
> 
> I guess we'll see if the practice of having to write 5,000 ways to describe a blowjob translates into good storytelling.


I think YOU are awesome! You sure got my attention with this post. I'm already keen to see what you write. ;-)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

BBGriffith said:


> Stephen King once famously wrote, "While it is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and while it is equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good one, it is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication, and timely help, to make a good writer out of a merely competent one."
> 
> Which I think can be loosely translated to read: If you're not born a great writer, you'll never be one. If you're a bad writer, you're out of luck. But if you're an okay writer, there's an off chance that you can be made good.


I think many readers are looking more for a great story, than a great writer. I think a good writer can write a great story that captures the imagination of readers during their time. A great writer will transcend time and their works will still be fresh, vital and moving 100 years later. Usually we don't know who will be a great author until long after they are dead.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

WHDean said:


> _Talent _ is one of those bivalent words. On the one hand, calling someone talented is shorthand for saying they're good at what they do-"He's definitely talented." On the other hand, it's a way of diminishing someone's accomplishments-"We can't all have a talent for it"-as if being able to write was akin to being able to eat spicy food without getting heartburn.


In the movie _Amadeus_, Salieri says of Mozart, "It was if he was simply taking dictation from God" and talked about how there was nothing crossed out on his originals etc...Well, the Mozart historians went nuts. According to everything in their records, Mozart worked his butt off...but there really weren't all that many things scratched through in many of his originals. He arranged the music in his head before he put it down note-by-note. I think a good author may make it seem like he's taking dictation from God, but there's a lot of thinking about the subject going on. A lot of fantansizing. Role playing in the head. And that inner voice that puts words to what the brain is seeing is expressive. While most writers drag it out of their heads in loosely scribbled stick figures and painstaking word placement that they must then give a form, color, taste, etc...Part of the talent is that ability to play with the scene before it goes down on paper and the quality of that inner voice. So, that IS an advantage some writers have over others. Doesn't diminish the final product they produce in any way, but IMO it's foolish to claim that they don't have an inherent advantage over others that ultimately makes the task easier.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> You're conflating attitudes or character traits that conduce to success with a catch-all adjective for those attitudes and traits, namely, "positive thinking." If someone succeeds because they worked hard, and they worked hard because they believed hard works pays off, they succeeded because they worked hard and believed it would pay off. Positive thinking is entirely superfluous in explaining how x got from point A to point B.


So what? The issue was human development. Human development would be enhanced if more folks were sad and lazy?


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> In the movie _Amadeus_, Salieri says of Mozart, "It was if he was simply taking dictation from God" and talked about how there was nothing crossed out on his originals etc...Well, the Mozart historians went nuts. According to everything in their records, Mozart worked his butt off...but there really weren't all that many things scratched through in many of his originals. He arranged the music in his head before he put it down note-by-note. I think a good author may make it seem like he's taking dictation from God, but there's a lot of thinking about the subject going on. A lot of fantansizing. Role playing in the head. And that inner voice that puts words to what the brain is seeing is expressive. While most writers drag it out of their heads in loosely scribbled stick figures and painstaking word placement that they must then give a form, color, taste, etc...Part of the talent is that ability to play with the scene before it goes down on paper and the quality of that inner voice. So, that IS an advantage some writers have over others. Doesn't diminish the final product they produce in any way, but IMO it's foolish to claim that they don't have an inherent advantage over others that ultimately makes the task easier.


The mathematician who consulted on _Good Will Hunting _ made a similar complaint about that movie. He said he liked what the film did for mathematics, but that he didn't believe in innate mathematical genius. Personally, I think the problem is looking at a complex system with a multitude of variables like it was a linear one with a dichotomous variables-i.e., where it's either innate talent or hard work.

There are likely a large number of different things that go into making the large number of different kinds of writers. On the innate side, how come no one mentions memory, for example? The ancients put more weight on that than pure intellect. What about attention to detail or some oddball quality? For that matter, the ability to create stories might be the result of as minor mental deficit or disfunction combined with some other qualities. On the hard work side, there's another whole list of different things could contribute to a good writer.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> So what? The issue was human development. Human development would be enhanced if more folks were sad and lazy?


Let me put it this way: Positive thinking adds to a belief in the benefits of hard work what the Great Ring of Wamba adds to $3.48 when you're buying a cup of coffee at Starbuck's.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Human development would be enhanced if more folks were sad and lazy?


But this is the point. The Cult of Positive Thinking essentially relegates anyone who is not successful to the category of being "sad and lazy." If you are poor, it is your own fault because you simply don't work hard enough and don't think positive enough. If you are overweight, it is your own fault because you don't "believe" enough you can be a size 6. If you are sick, it is your own fault because you didn't think positively enough. And if your book is not selling, "ignore the haters and write the next book!!!!!!!!!" without pausing for a nanosecond to critically dissect what might be wrong with the first book so you don't repeat the same mistakes.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If you are overweight, it is your own fault because you don't "believe" enough you can be a size 6.


Well, when I had the photo in my avatar taken, I was 265 and every meal was pizza and Jack Daniel's!

Certainly being overweight is something that people can change through belief in healthy living. Now I eat this quinoa and chug down protein shakes after an hour of cardio, because I know that a lifestyle change will help you lose weight.

You're right though, some of that "positive thinking" stuff borders on kooky


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

sicklove said:


> Well, when I had the photo in my avatar taken, I was 265 and every meal was pizza and Jack Daniel's!
> 
> Certainly being overweight is something that people can change through belief in healthy living. Now I eat this quinoa and chug down protein shakes after an hour of cardio, because I know that a lifestyle change will help you lose weight.
> 
> You're right though, some of that "positive thinking" stuff borders on kooky


No, people change it not by a "belief in healthy living", but rather by living healthily.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

telracs said:


> No, people change it not by a "belief in healthy living", but rather by living healthily.


Healthy living started by the choice to believe that a more difficult and less pleasurable life was superior to an easy one, so again, for me, it took belief in healthy living before I could live healthier.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> No, people change it not by a "belief in healthy living", but rather by living healthily.


I suppose one could stumble into healthy living by accident. Others could be forced into it. But for many the belief precedes the action and is a necessary condition for acting.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I suppose one could stumble into healthy living by accident. Others could be forced into it. But for many the belief precedes the action and is a necessary condition for acting.





sicklove said:


> Healthy living started by the choice to believe that a more difficult and less pleasurable life was superior to an easy one, so again, for me, it took belief in healthy living before I could live healthier.


But belief is not enough. I can BELIEVE I'm going to win the lottery, but if I don't play it, I can't win it.

I can believe that healthy living is a good thing (in fact I know it is) but if I don't cut down on my salt and fat and increase my exercise, my weight is not going to change.

I'm not saying belief is a bad thing, but I am saying you need more than just belief for changes to happen.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

Terrence OBrien said:


> But for many the belief precedes the action and is a necessary condition for acting.


Yes. Exactly.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Reagarding OP: Had a whole thing planned here to say, but I have a horrible migraine....and don't feel like getting into it now. (maybe I'll make a blog post of my own  ) 
But I'll be brief for now...
Not to one-up you but rather to add to what you have said, and shed a little more light on it: 
1. If you whine...you are not acting professional. BE A PROFESSIONAL!
2. Why would you whine here? Your competition hangs out here. NEVER show your lack of confidence to your competition. 
3. It's fine to seek advice, from people you consider experts, and people that you trust. Decide who those people are, and seek their advice. 
4. Have a thick skin. BY ALL MEANS, handle criticism (from anyone, whether a trusted friend or fellow author) maturely!

Regarding positive thinking: I'm all in favor of positive thinking. However, it should be followed by positive actions and a willingness to do what it takes to improve. Otherwise, "positive thinking" is just "happy day dreams."



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I also think this idea that "anyone" can do something by simply wanting it bad enough actually diminishes the talent of those who do something well. Dismissing a craft as something that "anyone can do" if they work hard enough implies that the craft itself requires no skill. Writing a book or knitting a scarf or painting a portrait becomes no different from flipping a burger or digging a hole or washing a dish.


^^ I can completely relate to that. In my teens and early twenties I wanted to be a dancer in the worse way. My first college major was Ballet. I was a soloist at my former dancing school when I was a teenager, but at the professional level I was barely average compared to most of the other dancers. My teachers all labeled me as someone with "potential" but that was about it. Potential doesn't get you very far, even if you work very hard and eat, sleep, and breathe ballet. Your physique and athleticism definitely plays a part.

Coincidentally, it was my psychology professor (who was also my academic adviser) that recommended I become a writer based on my writing assignments for his class.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> In the movie _Amadeus_, Salieri says of Mozart, "It was if he was simply taking dictation from God" and talked about how there was nothing crossed out on his originals etc...Well, the Mozart historians went nuts. According to everything in their records, Mozart worked his butt off...but there really weren't all that many things scratched through in many of his originals. He arranged the music in his head before he put it down note-by-note. I think a good author may make it seem like he's taking dictation from God, but there's a lot of thinking about the subject going on. A lot of fantansizing. Role playing in the head. And that inner voice that puts words to what the brain is seeing is expressive. While most writers drag it out of their heads in loosely scribbled stick figures and painstaking word placement that they must then give a form, color, taste, etc...Part of the talent is that ability to play with the scene before it goes down on paper and the quality of that inner voice. So, that IS an advantage some writers have over others. Doesn't diminish the final product they produce in any way, but IMO it's foolish to claim that they don't have an inherent advantage over others that ultimately makes the task easier.


QFT.

Just try telling people that when you're quietly sitting at the table, drinking a cup of coffee, staring at the wall, you're actually working your butt off.


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## Guest (May 11, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> QFT.
> 
> Just try telling people that, when you're quietly sitting at the table, drinking a cup of coffee, staring at the wall, you're actually working your butt off.


I can see the action playing in my head, much like a movie. I'm extremely visual when I'm writing, zooming in with the mind's eye to observe the finest details. Freezing time and surveying a scene as if it is frozen in time, looking at the character's faces, the clothes they wear, the neon lights across the street they're standing on, the asian people walking a few meters away, the shadows cast off the main character's body by high end xenon headlights. It's pretty trippy and quite tiresome sometimes.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> But belief is not enough.


Correct. It's not sufficient for anyone, but for many it is a necessary condition. They must have the belief prior to initiating the healthy living.

For many their probability of success is further enhanced if they believe they can personally achieve a state of healthy living.

[I believe one can train to achieve a 400 pound bench press. However, I lack a belief that I can personally accomplish it.]


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## pulsemyne (May 7, 2012)

90daysnovel said:


> Re slow sales - that's not unusual. Most get an initial burst (authors friends, family etc) then drop off to virtually nil before slowly building. It's a grass roots thing - it takes a while for your readership to build through word of mouth. Ofc a few ads/ freebie run would speed it up, but 5 sales in week one isn't anything to be overly concerned about. As long as you've got a good book, with a well written blurb and a decent cover it will gain momentum over time, particularly if you release more ebooks.
> 
> 'Needing editing' can be a very vague one. It might be that it's too long (or too short). A manuscript really should go through a few critique partners/ beta readers pre-release. Anything that doesn't add to the story should go (I keep my occams razor offcuts in another file, that way it feels less savage). If it's just one person that says 'edit more' then ignore 'em... if a whole bunch start then it's time to do a serious rewrite/ edit. Just remember that as the author you've got complete discretion - it's your book. It won't suit everyone, but no books do.
> 
> Beyond that, it's a case of get your head down, advertise as much as possible (Use a real marketing plan - if you haven't got one, a quick guide to planning one is up at http://rachelabbottwriter.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/guest-post-more-indie-author-marketing-tips-from-sean-campbell/).


Thanks for the reply. This is how you help people. It's filled with information that newbie authors like myself need.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

D. said:


> at least writers aren't actresses, who are often introduced as "the lovely and talented."


I wish I was called lovely and talented!

*sob, icecream*

Regarding getting even slightly back on topic... well, I've found that success comes down to two points:

- It's all about luck.
- The more I practice and the harder I work, the luckier I get.

Weird, isn't it?


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I suppose one could stumble into healthy living by accident. Others could be forced into it. But for many the belief precedes the action and is a necessary condition for acting.


Some are born to healthy living, some achieve healthy living, and some have healthy living thrust upon 'em.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

telracs said:


> I'm not saying belief is a bad thing, but I am saying you need more than just belief for changes to happen.


You can't "make changes" without it though, so to discount it is to throw away a crucial ingredient.

"I believe I will write a good book." So I sit down and write a book. Maybe it's good maybe it isn't.

"I don't believe I will write a good book." I don't even write a book.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

NathanWrann said:


> You can't "make changes" without it though, so to discount it is to throw away a crucial ingredient.
> 
> "I believe I will write a good book." So I sit down and write a book. Maybe it's good maybe it isn't.
> 
> "I don't believe I will write a good book." I don't even write a book.


When did I discount it? Please read my post below, again. I said it was a good thing, but it was not enough.



telracs said:


> But belief is not enough. I can BELIEVE I'm going to win the lottery, but if I don't play it, I can't win it.
> 
> I can believe that healthy living is a good thing (in fact I know it is) but if I don't cut down on my salt and fat and increase my exercise, my weight is not going to change.
> 
> I'm not saying belief is a bad thing, but I am saying you need more than just belief for changes to happen.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

telracs said:


> When did I discount it? Please read my post below, again. I said it was a good thing, but it was not enough.


You are discussing a point _against_ people who are defending the power of positive thinking. I don't think that anyone here said that ONLY a positive belief _was_ enough. So when you make a statement against that, you are making a statement against positive thinking. No? Did I misunderstand you, and you are actually just agreeing with Terrence and Sicklove. If so, then I apologize for thinking that your statement was discounting it.


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## glennlangohr (Nov 15, 2011)

Great advice about the whining, and then the thread went classic with the butter churn and follow up. I love this board!


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