# **RESOLVED** Thanks!



## Tabitha Levin (Nov 1, 2011)

Resolved.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

On the other hand, if you feel that her book could damage your brand you are within your rights to have a lawyer send a cease-and-desist letter. That's what McDonalds and Disney would do. Then they'd sue her out of existence, but you'd need deep pockets for that.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

My personal opinion is no. Sure, the colors are the same, and at first glance, the fonts look similar. But totally different looking people, different pose, different title. 

Now if the story mirrors yours, then you've got a case. Otherwise...


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Learnmegood said:


> My personal opinion is no. Sure, the colors are the same, and at first glance, the fonts look similar. But totally different looking people, different pose, different title.
> 
> Now if the story mirrors yours, then you've got a case. Otherwise...


I disagree. The titles are similar, both in a descriptive word followed by a name and the use of fonts. There are too many identical elements. If I saw these, I would assume they were by the same author, which is where you have the right to protect your brand.

I am not a litigious person, but I would totally understand having a lawyer draft a letter to this author.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Sorry, I'd tell you to get lost too.  You don't have a corner on basic black bar with text on it and a coloring (even green coloring) in the middle.  I'll bet if you were able to search by those things, you'd find hundreds if not thousands of similar looks.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

They are very similar, but there's really nothing all that unique about the design. Contacting an attorney would be a waste of time and money. Just ignore it.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I disagree. The titles are similar, both in a descriptive word followed by a name and the use of fonts. There are too many identical elements. If I saw these, I would assume they were by the same author, which is where *you have the right to protect your brand*.
> 
> I am not a litigious person, but I would totally understand having a lawyer draft a letter to this author.


welllllll, what if the _other_ book becomes a major best seller and people begin to assume they were by the same author and sales actually start flowing toward the OP? Would it still be wise to draft a letter and tell the _other_ author to take it down?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm with Monique. There's nothing unusual about a black band at the top-- Ellora's Cave has done that for years. I'll grant a similarity in color, layout and title, but I don't think it's worth going to a lawyer about. I'd shrug and let it go, myself.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

It's not just the black and green that is the same but also the green/white title font which seems to be more than just a coincidence. Having said that, I have no idea if there is a legal way to protect what is sort of a common choice. (Not the Colorado themselves but having the title with different colors.)


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

Wow. I guess I should feel flattered that you decided to post the cover of my short up for the whole board to pay attention to.

Honestly, I didn't know who you were or even about your books until you sent me a message via this forum earlier tonight. I never used the term "get lost." 

I said I had created the cover myself without any knowledge of your covers and did not feel comfortable wasting my hard work. You said your "designer" was considering a copyright infringement thing, to which I responded that I would be happy to forward any necessary paperwork to my legal team. 

Honestly, a brand new 5K short from an unknown writer that has sold zero copies is probably not a threat to "confusing your readers" as you put it in the message.

But again, I stand by what I said in both this thread and the original reply message. Thanks!


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

The question is "Did this person copy my cover?" 

My answer is: 

Does it matter?

If they did copy, are they damaging you or your book? If they're not causing damage to your brand, why does it matter?


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

No, you don't remotely have a case. No one can own the color combo of black and neon green or the pairing of plain fonts with fancy ones, or the idea of a couple in a romantic pose. With the exception of the color scheme, all these elements are incredibly common and even the color scheme isn't especially rare.

I don't say this to be harsh but if you approach every author you see whose cover has multiple similarities to yours, you're going to spend an enormous amount of time sending emails and getting "get lost" responses. The long and short: it may startle you the first few times you see covers that remind you of yours. But unless the circumstances are extremely unusual, it's something you're going to have to get used to.

My thoughts would be different if, for example, you ordered a custom photo shoot of specific models, paid for exclusive rights, then saw those exact images on another cover. _That_ would be cause for concern. Or if you commissioned a custom piece of digital art, paid for exclusive rights, then saw that identical artwork on another book. You get the idea.

I hope I'm not coming off as a big meany. I'm just trying to save you time and worry.


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## kisala9906 (Sep 4, 2011)

AndiAlexander said:


> Wow. I guess I should feel flattered that you decided to post the cover of my short up for the whole board to pay attention to.
> 
> Honestly, I didn't know who you were or even about your books until you sent me a message via this forum earlier tonight. I never used the term "get lost."
> 
> ...


Well this got ugly fast!

Okay, so looking at both covers, they do look similar but there are TONS of covers that look similar. Even if she did "steal" your cover I doubt anything could be done about it as the people look different and the fonts are well, fonts. There is nothing wrong about using similar fonts. I personally like both covers and I don't know that I have ever known anyone that says, oh that cover looks like this author wrote the book.


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

kisala9906 said:


> Well this got ugly fast!
> 
> Okay, so looking at both covers, they do look similar but there are TONS of covers that look similar. Even if she did "steal" your cover I doubt anything could be done about it as the people look different and the fonts are well, fonts. There is nothing wrong about using similar fonts. I personally like both covers and I don't know that I have ever known anyone that says, oh that cover looks like this author wrote the book.


No intention of things getting ugly. I just simply presented my side when things were posted to the forum. I wish her all the luck with her book sales, and I will continue to happily write my short stories.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

Look at this! 
It really isn't a problem.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Ardin said:


> Look at this!
> It really isn't a problem.


Wait. What? WHAT?

Are those all written by the same author?


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## Tabitha Levin (Nov 1, 2011)

Yes, it wasn't my intent for things to 'get ugly' either. I was just surprised when I saw it. My designer was annoyed, but I can handle him (graphic design husband - what a team )

But like Dara said, 'it's something you're going to have to get used to." And I'm in good company!

Also Hugh Howey commented on my post! Squee - that's made everything alright. *swoon*


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

traceye said:


> Yes, it wasn't my intent for things to 'get ugly' either. I was just surprised when I saw it. My designer was annoyed, but I can handle him (graphic design husband - what a team )
> 
> But like Dara said, 'it's something you're going to have to get used to." And I'm in good company!
> 
> Also Hugh Howey commented on my post! Squee - that's made everything alright. *swoon*


Hey, I was impressed by the Hugh Howey thing, too!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Ardin, I should have used those examples when people started thinking we stole from Lauren Kate's "Passion"










vs


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

AndiAlexander said:


> Hey, I was impressed by the Hugh Howey thing, too!


He can start signing his correspondence:

Hugh Howey, Peacemaker.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Similar copies happen all the time. Sometimes people alert me that someone else is using a photo of mine, then I have to let them know about stock pics, and how it happens a lot.

In the examples, those two covers are similar mainly because of the unusual green color. If it's not the same stock photo, plus other elements as well, I wouldn't worry.

I saw someone the other day with one of Maya Cross's stock pics and a different color. I see Maya's covers all the time, so I looked, thinking it might be hers (wasn't), but most casual readers don't know covers that well, unless they're extremely popular books.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

IMHO --

This is likely an intentional imitation, but not at all actionable in terms of copyright. The original design is too generic. The only reason I think it's intentional is that each element is the same -- down to the fonts in the title.

If you'd had a trademark on that particular combination of elements, you might have a case. 

But... I'm not a lawyer.

Camille


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

traceye said:


> I wrote a series of e.rom shorts last year, my designer used a particular cover design style for branding. I have seven in my series that use this style.
> 
> I noticed another new author has a cover very similar to mine (different stock photo, but all other elements look copied including title placement, colours, black bar at top, etc).
> 
> ...


Um, perhaps I could get you to look at a blog post I did on this subject. You'll see that there are a lot of covers that are WAYYYYYY more similar than yours that don't violate copyright at all : http://www.stevewhibley.blogspot.ca/2013/03/doppelganger-book-covers-beware.html

Here's a favorite from the post, and no, there's no copyright infringement.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> You'll see that there are a lot of covers that are WAYYYYYY more similar than yours that don't violate copyright at all


Most of those covers use the same stock photos. This does tend to make covers look similar, but if you buy stock photos, you're going to find that someone else has used the same image at some point. (As Mimi said above, the biggest problem with this is that readers sometimes don't understand stock photos and assume the cover image is "stolen" when in fact it's been used legitimately.) In this case, we have a cover with an entirely different image, but a similar overall feel, which is also not unusual.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Hey! Any other long lost "twin" covers out there?


One of my covers uses the same stock photo as H.M Ward's _The Arrangement 3_. (We both got the covers at around the same time.) This has yet to result in my book appearing on the New York Times bestseller list, alas.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> The titles are similar, both in a descriptive word followed by a name and the use of fonts.


A lot of romance/erotic/NA books these days have similar titles and use fonts like that. There's nothing original about the cover. I'm planning to use the fonts I saw on one cover because I really like them and since they're just the usual fonts anyone can buy, I don't think there's a problem with that. It's the same like with stock photos. Anyone can use them.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Those covers are ridiculously similar.  Especially considering how rare that funky green color is in covers.  Add up all the other similar elements and it's clear.  I'd get a cease and desist letter out ASAP.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Um, perhaps I could get you to look at a blog post I did on this subject. You'll see that there are a lot of covers that are WAYYYYYY more similar than yours that don't violate copyright at all : http://www.stevewhibley.blogspot.ca/2013/03/doppelganger-book-covers-beware.html
> 
> Here's a favorite from the post, and no, there's no copyright infringement.


I don't get how you know the later book isn't infringing the rights of the former. Did a court case make it though the system and a judge make that determination? Otherwise, I'd have fun arguing how the second cover (whichever one it is) definitely would cause confusion for readers and infringe the rights of the original user.


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

I agree with ellecasey.  They're too similar.  I would be extremely upset as well.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Entangled publishing has been using font looking just like that on most of their covers for quite some time. Its their branding. Even the same color. Here is one example.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Entangled publishing has been using font looking just like that on most of their covers for quite some time. Its their branding. Even the same color. Here is one example.


Not the same shade of green as the covers in question.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Like I said, its one example. They have a gazillion books with the same font and all colors of the rainbow, including several shades of green. Its not just the color that is in question here, but the font.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

I'm with Hugh- it's not just the black bar and the green colour- EVERYTHING about this cover looks like a copy, whether it was intended or not:

> Black bar up the top (one that isn't actually needed in the "copy"... it's like the unnecessary label "an erotic short" was added just so there would be text up the top). Note that the text is also in white.
> Same shade and gradient of what is a fairly unique green for the genre
> Title structure is the same: "Perfect Amy" vs. "Always Amanda". Sounds like they belong in the same series, to me.
> The title colouring is the same- white descriptor, lime name. The placement is also the same.
> The author name is down the bottom, and coloured in green.
> While the fonts aren't an exact match, they're definitely of the same vein, and used in the exact same fashion as the original.
> I know that "couple making out" isn't exactly original, but the fact this copy has that too is just icing on the cake.

Seriously, if Andi never really knew about your book series before she created the cover, I have to presume she stumbled across it at some point, and while she didn't take much note of the actual book the image has burnt itself in her brain. How else can you explain _every single design aspect_ being a virtual carbon copy?

And regarding the posts showing covers with identical or very similar stock models- that's not what's happened here. What HAS happened is this:










Oh! Oh! But it's a different stock image. And you can't copyright the placement of text, right? So this is TOTALLY okay.

Surely people can see that this is a bit different to simply using the same stock image (as with Ardin's post) or having a similarly posed model (as with MrPLD's post). I know there's nothing groundbreaking in the OP's design, but given the similarities, I understand her concern.

*But.*

I also agree that if you take this to a lawyer, there's going to be no case. It's obvious that the two are ridiculously alike, but that's not enough for a case. I imagine you wouldn't have a case at all at least until such time that you can prove that you are losing money on account of this other cover design.

*But. (again)*

Just because there's no "legal" grounds, doesn't make it okay. I say that the onus is now on Andi to make changes, whether the similarity was intentional or not. 
Even Chip Kidd revised one of his cover designs when he realised there was another publisher releasing a cover with an almost identical design. He couldn't have POSSIBLY copied the design- he designed the cover before the "original" was even released! But he understood that having two identical designs would reflect poorly on whoever released their design second (in this case, it was Chip Kidd). So he changed the design. The cover ended up stronger for it, anyway.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Um, perhaps I could get you to look at a blog post I did on this subject. You'll see that there are a lot of covers that are WAYYYYYY more similar than yours that don't violate copyright at all : http://www.stevewhibley.blogspot.ca/2013/03/doppelganger-book-covers-beware.html
> 
> Here's a favorite from the post, and no, there's no copyright infringement.


BTW, I checked the covers. ^^ One of them has been changed. Who wants to bet it was due to a C&D letter?


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Atunah said:


> Entangled publishing has been using font looking just like that on most of their covers for quite some time. Its their branding. Even the same color. Here is one example.


I'm with Atunah on this one.
Most likely these covers were the inspiration for one or both.
IMO, the OP's books aren't ranking that high, while most of Entangled publishing's books are ranked very well.
So that's why I think Entangled publishing was what was meant to be emulated.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

For anyone interested in the legal issues involved (most notably "trade dress" type of infringement), here's a handy explanation.

Damages are profits made by the infringing party.

There's a reason why publishers, after receiving cease and desist letters related to book covers, _change the covers_.

http://www.wiemeltlaw.com/id16.html

And a really great example of a case involving some big powerhouses that show you how important book cover marketing really is... [from: http://www.copylaw.com/new_articles/tradedress.html#Jackets]

*Trade Dress Protection for Book Jackets*

In a battle of words that began in the reference section of your local bookstore and ended up in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, two titans of dictionary publishing duked it out over the use of name WEBSTER'S COLLEGIATE/WEBSTER COLLEGE and similar bright red dust jackets.

In 1991, Merriam-Webster ("M-W"), the market leader in college dictionaries, sued Random House ("RH") after RH changed the name of its dictionary (from RH College Dictionary) to Random House Webster's College Dictionary. In addition, RH adopted a trade dress similar to Merriam-Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. Among the similarities between the two competing works were:

Bright red dust jackets

The use of the generic word "Webster's" in combination with the descriptive term

"College" or "Collegiate" on the cover

The name "Webster's" in large white vertical letters on the spines.

Concluding RH acted with malice, a six-person jury awarded M-W over $4 million in damages and granted it a permanent injunction preventing RH from distributing its dictionary. Downplaying RH's "bad faith" attempt to capitalize on M-W's trade dress, the Court of Appeals reversed the decision of the District Court, and vacated the injunction and damages award.

In finding there was no likelihood of consumer confusion (the test for trade dress infringement), the appeals court placed special emphasis on the conspicuous use of the publishers' names and logos (including M-H's own distinctive "bull's eye" logo) which served to distinguish the two dictionaries. The court also noted that M-H had not objected to red jacketed college dictionaries published by other houses. In addition, the court found that the relative sophistication of dictionary purchasers cut against finding a likelihood of confusion. The court was unconvinced that dictionary purchasers -- whose motto might be "We never guess; we look it up" -- could be easily fooled. Further, the court noted the name "Webster's" featured on the spines was generic and therefore possessed no commercial magnetism.

While "innocent" intent is no defense to either trademark or trade dress infringement, "bad faith" in some jurisdictions may either prove likelihood of confusion or raise an inference of likelihood of confusion. What is significant about the Merriam- Webster decision is the court's failure to give "bad faith" much weight in the standard trade dress infringement analysis.

Moreover, in arriving at its decision, the appeals court apparently dissected the differences in trade dress as opposed to considering the total appearance. This is a departure from traditional trade dress analysis that takes a broad view of the combination of a product's color or color combinations, texture, design, graphics, typefaces and marketing techniques.

--it all will depend HOW similar they are --- I'd argue this girl's cover is way too similar, whereas I don't think it's that similar to the one Atunah attached.--


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Entangled publishing has been using font looking just like that on most of their covers for quite some time. Its their branding. Even the same color. Here is one example.





Charmaine said:


> I'm with Atunah on this one.
> Most likely these covers were the inspiration for one or both.
> IMO, the OP's books aren't ranking that high, while most of Entangled publishing's books are ranked very well.
> So that's why I think Entangled publishing was what was meant to be emulated.


There are _numerous _differences between this cover and the OP's. While you *might* be able to say that one inspired the other, it is not a blatant copy. There is no issue here. The issue is having a carbon copy of a design, as Andi has. At this stage, I'd be embarrassed that such a thing occurred, even if it was purely accidental, and I'd certainly be making changes. The two covers are just _too_ similar.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

BelindaPepper said:


> Seriously, if Andi never really knew about your book series before she created the cover, I have to presume she stumbled across it at some point, and while she didn't take much note of the actual book the image has burnt itself in her brain. How else can you explain _every single design aspect_ being a virtual carbon copy?


Throughout life you'll find that this comes up with annoying/disturbing frequency. It's not just book covers, it's inventions/creations in all fields. It's one of those marvels of the universe.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

MrPLD said:


> Throughout life you'll find that this comes up with annoying/disturbing frequency. It's not just book covers, it's inventions/creations in all fields. It's one of those marvels of the universe.


Which is precisely why I mentioned it.  I _know _these things happen. But I also direct you (and Andi) to what I said about Chip:



> Just because there's no "legal" grounds, doesn't make it okay. I say that the onus is now on Andi to make changes, whether the similarity was intentional or not.
> Even Chip Kidd revised one of his cover designs when he realised there was another publisher releasing a cover with an almost identical design. He couldn't have POSSIBLY copied the design- he designed the cover before the "original" was even released! But he understood that having two identical designs would reflect poorly on whoever released their design second (in this case, it was Chip Kidd). So he changed the design. The cover ended up stronger for it, anyway.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MrPLD said:


> Throughout life you'll find that this comes up with annoying/disturbing frequency. It's not just book covers, it's inventions/creations in all fields. It's one of those marvels of the universe.


Quoted for truth. Newton and Leibniz. Darwin and Wallace. Deep Impact and Armageddon. The list goes on.










B.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> BTW, I checked the covers. ^^ One of them has been changed. Who wants to bet it was due to a C&D letter?


The publisher (Random House) must have realized publishing two books with nearly identical cover only two months apart would be a bad idea. If they had to send a C&D letter for this that would be just hilarious.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Time for Thunderdome. Two books enter, one book leaves.


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## Bec (Aug 24, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> BTW, I checked the covers. ^^ One of them has been changed. Who wants to bet it was due to a C&D letter?


Would it be unethical to take that bet, knowing that they're the same publisher  Perhaps a cover designer got lazy and didn't think anyone would notice.....


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Monique said:


> Time for Thunderdome. Two books enter, one book leaves.


Now I'm singing, We don't need another hero, and thinking that the idea of gladiator books sounds awesome


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Maybe there is a hidden positive in this.  Maybe you two can get together and do some joint promotions since you write in the same genre.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> Those covers are ridiculously similar. Especially considering how rare that funky green color is in covers. Add up all the other similar elements and it's clear. I'd get a cease and desist letter out ASAP.


That shade of green is actually very common. In five minutes scanning Amazon erotica I found these. Notice how the first example even has the black band at the top and bottom and a plain font combined with a fancy one.

Now not knowing either of these two authors, I can't say whether author #2's intention was to create a similar style cover to author #1. All I can say is that it's not an unusual cover style for the genre and I'd be completely bowled over if anyone had a legal case here. Whether author #2 has a moral obligation to change her cover, since there's no legal one, I don't have an opinion on.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Well. If it's going to be that hard to get a unique erotica cover, I'm going to go for unique word/concept in the title.

Nobody else use "billionaire" now.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Dara England said:


> That shade of green is actually very common. In five minutes scanning Amazon erotica I found these:


The only cover there that uses the exact shade of green is "The Tycoon's Revenge", and MAYBE "Highland Vengeance".

But it's not really about the green, anyway.  It's that every single element on the cover is virtually identical. The OP's cover doesn't look like any of the covers posted, despite all having green in them.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Well, there's also Incredible Hulk. He might actually own that color green, and all 50 Shades of Green, for that matter.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

I’ve been reading threads about covers on KBs for three years now and two facts stand out. One is that authors often like to have a cover which is in keeping with the predominant style for the genre to send a signal to readers that their story belongs in a particular category. The second is that many covers use pictures from a limited number of stock images available. The result is that I am never surprised to see covers which look similar – but am amazed when someone breaks the mould and has a unique cover.

Having said that, I do recall at least one instance when an author had her cover image deliberately replicated by a publisher, and when the facts came out - which included a trail which showed the similarities were no coincidence - the publisher did withdraw their version.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

To the original poster:

No.

Not the same photo, not the same design. Not the same fonts, not the same font sizes, not the same placement, not the same aspect ratio. Not even the same green.

Nothing to worry about.

Are there similarities? Sure. Our brains are wired to see patterns. _This_ seems like _that_. It's natural to make that leap. And it is a leap.

Seriously: nothing to worry about.

David


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Daphne said:


> Having said that, I do recall at least one instance when an author had her cover image deliberately replicated by a publisher, and when the facts came out - which included a trail which showed the similarities were no coincidence - the publisher did withdraw their version.


That's probably the LK Rigel "Spiderwork" vs Alex Finn "Bewitching" event? In which as I understand it it wasn't so much that the covers were so similar, but rather the back story behind it all.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Just seems that when you have hundreds of thousands of new covers every year, many of them trying for similar genre branding, there is bound to be some covers that end up similar. Unless one of the covers is super well known, the second cover designer is unlikely to have seen the original.

In the same way, two books can have remarkably similar elements, making someone convinced that one had copied the other, whereas most of the time the second author hadn't even read the first book.

There doesn't seem any advantage in copying the design. If the second cover designer had seen the first one, and liked some element and decided to use that, they'd probably go out of their way to make the other elements look different. (In the same way, if I was writing a book, and realized a few too many elements were similar to Lord of the Rings, I'd go out of my way to avoid the minor similarities; whereas if I'd never read the book, I wouldn't be able to do that.)


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

There are a lot of similar elements, but not enough to make me immediately think "imitation" or some type of infringement.  Personally, I'd be looking for the equivalent of someone pouring their own homemade beverage into a Coke-shaped bottle and trying to sell it to the public.  This is more like them pouring it into a regular 12-oz can and selling it alongside a bunch of other cans of the same size, shape, etc.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> That's probably the LK Rigel "Spiderwork" vs Alex Finn "Bewitching" event? In which as I understand it it wasn't so much that the covers were so similar, but rather the back story behind it all.


That's the one - and the backstory is an important element. Something similar happened with an author's book recently - another remarkably similar one popped up - this can happen by coincidence, but this case also had a trail/backstory which showed the publisher in question was aware of the book which was already in circulation.


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## Jacob Crow (Jun 25, 2013)

traceye said:


> I noticed another new author has a cover very similar to mine (different stock photo, but all other elements look copied including title placement, colours, black bar at top, etc).
> 
> Am I crazy? Is this blatent copying, or just a co-incidence?


Happens to all of us. Only the other day I noticed "my" stock photo on two different books; one of them here on k boards. Same semi-clad man in jeans but with different fonts. They are straight erotica, mine is gay erotica. I checked one of them, noticed it was published about a month after mine and thought _phew_.

It reminds me of the hundreds of _Twilight_ cover-copies out there with pale, young people standing in a dark mist, or _The Da Vinci Code_-looking covers with paintings or cathedrals. I don't think someone copying your cover will deter potential readers from buying your book.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Only the other day I noticed "my" stock photo on two different books; one of them here on k boards.


Your stock photo on the left may be one of the most overused stock photos out there. I used it on my first indie published romance in 2010. I've seen it about a million and one times since then!


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## Jacob Crow (Jun 25, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> Your stock photo on the left may be one of the most overused stock photos out there. I used it on my first indie published romance in 2010. I've seen it about a million and one times since then!


Yes, I know. That was actually my point.  
Unless you get a photographer and a model to make an exclusive cover for you, your picture _will_ show up on other books.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Unless you get a photographer and a model to make an exclusive cover for you, your picture will show up on other books.


Yep, and when you see a really striking image that you think is totally awesome, you can bet other authors have looked at it and thought the exact same thing. The same goes for cover design. I said above that the black stripe at the top of the OP's cover was actually reminiscent of an Ellora's Cave cover. It's a very standard element on erotica covers. So is the one-word-in-print-one-word-in-cursive design element. And tinting a cover isn't particularly unusual, either (though I'll admit that this particular shade of green doesn't appeal to me; I like the green on the Entangled cover that Atunah linked a lot better). Add it all up, and I really don't think it adds up to anything underhanded or shady.


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## NicoleSwan (Oct 2, 2011)

Certainly the number of elements similar vs different make it feel like it's just a coincidence more than anything else.

As for stock art, it can be rather amusing at times to see how often the same image comes up, though it seems even big trad pubs get hit with that too.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Let me explain in detail why the designer and author who feel like they've been "copied" need to chill out.

There are a lot of similarities between the covers, but that's because a lot of those similarities are just standard design elements. Like pairing a fancy font (a different fancy font, I note) with a regular font. Like using a black bar across the top. Like superimposing a color.

The fact that the book is the EXACT SAME COLOR of green (it's not, really, but it is close) is completely irrelevant. There are so many books that are SOME shade of green superimposed over models that it's inevitable that a handful of them are going to overlap.

The truth is, there are only so many stylistic choices you can make about cover design for erotic romances that fall within the bounds of good design that convey the genre.

1. What's the underlying image: Couple on front? Woman alone? Man alone? (3 possibilities)
2. How do you make the text stand out: Superimpose a color? Go low saturation? Or use heavy drop shadows? (3 possibilities)
3. Font treatment on the title: Use one font? Or use two contrasting fonts? (2 possibilities)
4. How to make the tagline stand out: Put it on a non busy portion of the image? Use heavy drop shadows? Use a black bar over the top? (3 possibilities)

Let's say that there are 400 distinct colors you could use for a superimposed color.

That means there are 7236 possible covers within the bounds of decent design for erotic novellas. (3*2*2*3 + 3*2*3*400).

If there were only two erotic covers in the world, and they were designed independently by someone who had never seen your cover, the chance of the other cover being similar to yours in the way that these two books are similar is small: .01%.

If there were three erotic covers in the world, all designed independently, the chances that someone would design a cover that was similar to yours is likewise small: .02%.

If there are 500 erotic covers in the world, designed independently, the chance that someone would design a cover similar to your is 6%.

If there are 5000 erotic covers in the world, designed independently, the chance that someone will design a cover similar to yours is 50%.

I feel very confident that there are more than 5000 erotic covers in this world.

So, designer one, that's what you're complaining about. You have a better than 50% chance of finding someone, randomly chosen, who is using your same design elements even though they've never looked at your cover.

Congratulations. You won the coin toss.

Now look at the math, take a deep breath, stop talking about suing someone or sending a C&D because someone assembled bog standard design elements in a bog standard way, and move on.

If you want to do something really productive, think of ways to brand your books that do not consist of compiling bog standard design elements in a bog standard way. For instance, Marie Force has a little badge with a lighthouse that she uses to denote her McCarthy series. Barry Eisler uses a Japanese character on his John Rain series. I commissioned a hand-lettered name for my covers from the woman who designs the fonts that I also use. 

If you want to differentiate yourself in an instantly recognizable way, invest in a custom logo.


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## Jacob Crow (Jun 25, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> Yep, and when you see a really striking image that you think is totally awesome, you can bet other authors have looked at it and thought the exact same thing.





NicoleSwan said:


> As for stock art, it can be rather amusing at times to see how often the same image comes up, though it seems even big trad pubs get hit with that too.


I looked for an image that clearly signaled "men sells sex" without showing so much it would be deemed inappropriate. A little like bags of generic food with the words *sugar* or *flour* stamped on them. It's funny that others saw the same image and thought "that signals straight fluffy romance to me," but I guess that says more about _my_ imagination than theirs.


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

No one's *ever* used my stock art for their covers.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> No one's ever used my stock art for their covers.


Did you pay for exclusive rights? That's the one way to ensure no one can use your image, but it's expensive, and I'm pretty sure someone might still use another shot from the same photo shoot.


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> Did you pay for exclusive rights? That's the one way to ensure no one can use your image, but it's expensive, and I'm pretty sure someone might still use another shot from the same photo shoot.


Haha, I was being sarcastic, referring to the fact that the two models on the covers in my sig are used in a TON of NA romances.

Of course... I was oblivious to this fact when my designer first showed them to me back in April. I love them, regardless.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Haha, I was being sarcastic, referring to the fact that the two models on the covers in my sig are used in a TON of NA romances.


Ooops, sorry, my sarcasm detector must be broken today, or taking Saturday off.   Yeah, I thought yours looked familiar, actually... I thought I recognized the couple from Tammara Webber's _Easy_.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> Did you pay for exclusive rights? *That's the one way to ensure no one can use your image*, but it's expensive, and I'm pretty sure someone might still use another shot from the same photo shoot.


The models on my cover are actors from my book trailer video shoot. We had a little photo session in the middle of the shoot. Ain't nobody gonna have my pictures on their cover but me. 

*of course someone could use their own pictures and then use the fonts (public domain) in the same size, layout and color.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> The truth is, there are only so many stylistic choices you can make about cover design for erotic romances that fall within the bounds of good design that convey the genre.
> 
> 1. What's the underlying image: Couple on front? Woman alone? Man alone? (3 possibilities)
> 2. How do you make the text stand out: Superimpose a color? Go low saturation? Or use heavy drop shadows? (3 possibilities)
> ...


Good lord, that's impressive. The math, that is. I stand in awe.


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

Hmmm. Haven't read any other responses yet, but yes, the similarity is remarkable (although I think yours is a bit better). I'm not a lawyer (I don't even play one on TV), but I believe that in legal terms this is called "appropriation of trade dress" (or something like that) and if it's likely to confuse the average buyer, it may be actionable. I don't know if that could be proved here. I note that when shopping at my local supermarket, the color schemes of the store brand items often mimic the colors of the nationally-advertised items with which they compare, and are displayed right next to them. That's got to lead some buyers to grab the wrong item occasionally.

In this case, one could debate whether a buyer might confuse your work with that of your (alleged) imitator.

Another question is why they chose to imitate your brand. I'm not knocking your book cover, but with an unlimited number of choices, I have to wonder what it was about your cover that might have led someone to say "Yes! Let's do a cover that looks exactly like _that _one! It's exactly what we wants, _Precious!_" (Sorry - I got carried away there for a moment.) There are just so many ways to go with a cover (and so many talented designers willing to create something original for very little money). Which brings up another question: Did this "Andi" person design her own cover, or did she farm it out to someone else?

Anyway... best of luck with this. If I were in your shoes I'd be pretty upset.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

If I owed the original cover, I would be upset.

The reason is this is clearly a brand. Look at her other covers:




















































Whether intentional or not, the second cover looks like it was made to fit in that brand. And it seems the original author is popular enough that her readers would now pick her brand out from a list of books.

If I owned the second cover, I would redesign, since I wouldn't want readers to think I was trying to profit off of someone else's brand.


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## Zoe York (May 12, 2013)

Except, as a romance reader, I look at that line of books and say, "Oh, so they're similar to Entangled Brazen books, eh?" 

And by similar, I mean, except for the black bar at the top, those look exactly like Brazen books to me. To the OP, please don't take that as a criticism of your books or your covers. But you can't have it both ways. And if you didn't intend to copy the Brazen design, give the other author the same benefit of the doubt.


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## Zoe York (May 12, 2013)

Also, Courtney's math is SPECTACULAR.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

swolf said:


> If I owed the original cover, I would be upset.
> 
> The reason is this is clearly a brand. Look at her other covers:
> 
> ...


Well, this seems to clearly indicate that we shouldn't be bothering to compare the the colors of the covers. Whatever color the second poster chose, it'd have a good chance of 'infringing' on one of the original poster's covers. So, the question is: are the other design elements unique enough? Another question: what should the OP do if we found a book published prior to hers that had the same combination of design elements that hers do?


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## Zoe York (May 12, 2013)




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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

This is a psychic energy sink. You can get bogged down in the issue of righting a perceived wrong and burn precious time better spent writing the next book.

Years ago I created, along with a small publisher, a so-called "line" of computer programming books. They sold really well. The line was identified in the title. Kind of like, "...for Dummies." We put out several titles, and the publisher contracted with other authors to do similar books with the same title prefix. My wife wrote one.

Well. next thing you know, other publishers appropriated my line prefix, and books with similar and sometimes identical titles hit the shelves. My first reaction was to get upset. But I don't get upset over many things, and I let it slide. Later, the most-offending author and I appeared at a lecture event on the dais together, and we became fast friends.

The line survived several imprint sales until a prestigious NY publisher owned it. None of the publishers cared about protecting their line. They said they'd rather publish books than bounce around courtrooms. Of course, there weren't millions of sales involved, only hundreds of thousands.

Anecdotal evidence? Sure. But the point is, don't let something like this eat you alive. Don't be upset. Write the next book, and don't give your precious royalties to lawyers to fight a battle you probably can't win and that won't be worth what it costs. Especially in psychic energy.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

swolf said:


> If I owed the original cover, I would be upset.
> 
> The reason is this is clearly a brand. Look at her other covers:
> 
> ...


No. This is not a brand in the legal sense, or even in the moral sense. It is an attempt to give her covers a unified look. Giving someone a "brand" that allowed them to exclude others from using the elements here would destroythe ability of new authors to bring books to market that fit a recognizable genre. You simply cannot claim a brand in black bar + color superimposed on couple + two contrasting fonts in erotic romance.

That would be like me saying that I claim a brand in covers where the woman is in a big, fluffy, highly-saturated colored dress + historical font + my name really big on the cover. Great, we have put work into giving our books a unified look and feel--but if you let me claim that broad a "brand" that means that no other author can use single women in big, fluffy dresses with historical fonts and big names. So someone else will use couples. Someone else will use pastels. Give me about 50 authors with "brands" and that's about all you can fit in the genre. That's it; we're done; nobody else gets to make historical romances with covers that look like historical romances any more.

Here is my brand: My name on the cover, Courtney Milan. Don't copy that, or I will come after you. Everything else is just a unified look and feel I give to my books.

You want a brand in your cover design? COMPOSE YOUR BRAND OUT OF NON-GENERIC ELEMENTS. And don't get pissed off when you try to "brand" yourself with generic elements and someone else uses those same generic elements. You didn't invent them, you don't own them, you don't get to control when other people use them. This is especially true when those things are used repeatedly by many players in the market to signify genre rather than brand ownership.

I try to give my covers a recognizable, unified look. I also try to make sure my covers fit the genre. It is inevitable that my recognizable, unified look will overlap with someone's recognizable, unified look. Don't confuse what marketing will call a "brand" with a legal ability to exclude others from using a particular look.

(And I am not a lawyer...because I don't have an active bar membership. But before I quit to write full time, I was a tenure track professor and I taught intellectual property, so I'm not just making this crap up.)


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

zoeyork said:


>


Point taken.


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

Generally speaking if you can't copyright something you won't make your back on stopping someone from doing something similar.  I doubt a cover design where the image, fonts and words are not the same can be copyrighted and is much of a rip off that any reputable lawyer will help you out with.  

I'd let go.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> No. This is not a brand in the legal sense, or even in the moral sense. It is an attempt to give her covers a unified look. Giving someone a "brand" that allowed them to exclude others from using the elements here would destroythe ability of new authors to bring books to market that fit a recognizable genre. You simply cannot claim a brand in black bar + color superimposed on couple + two contrasting fonts in erotic romance.
> 
> That would be like me saying that I claim a brand in covers where the woman is in a big, fluffy, highly-saturated colored dress + historical font + my name really big on the cover. Great, we have put work into giving our books a unified look and feel--but if you let me claim that broad a "brand" that means that no other author can use single women in big, fluffy dresses with historical fonts and big names. So someone else will use couples. Someone else will use pastels. Give me about 50 authors with "brands" and that's about all you can fit in the genre. That's it; we're done; nobody else gets to make historical romances with covers that look like historical romances any more.
> 
> ...


While it may not be a brand in the legal sense, I do believe it is in the moral sense. I want my books to be recognizable by readers from the design of the cover, and while I may not be able to enforce that legally, I would expect my fellow authors to respect it.

I may be within my legal right to create a cover with a woman wearing a big, fluffy dress, and put my name and title on it using the same fonts you do, but I would never do that because I believe it would be unethical. I would be trying to make a profit off of your well-earned reputation.

When you're discussing design, the line can be nebulous, and it's all a judgment call, but in my opinion, I wouldn't use the cover in the OP.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

I think there is still a lot of useful discussion here regarding what constitutes a brand and when is a cover too similar, and what to do about it.  But let me point out that, based on their posts in this thread, Andi (whose covers were in question) and Tracey (the original poster) have apparently amicably moved past the initial question.  

So, by all means, continue the discussion in general, just keep the above in mind.

Thanks!

Betsy


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

swolf said:


> I may be within my legal right to create a cover with a woman wearing a big, fluffy dress, and put my name and title on it using the same fonts you do, but I would never do that because I believe it would be unethical. I would be trying to make a profit off of your well-earned reputation.












OMG. How dare Sarah MacLean!










How dare Madeline Hunter!









How dare Julia London!










OMG, Liz Carlyle, not you, too?

Sabrina Jeffries, you're my only hope. You can't lead me astray. Right? Right?










And then look what came out, a mere two weeks after I released this:










Ima make these ones big so you can see the perfidy in action.








AND









Dark blue background composed of historical looking wallpaper? Bright pink, fluffy dresses? And they're ALL reissues and compilations?

Clearly, I have been betrayed by the entirety of the bestselling historical romance authors in the world! They're all trading on my reputation, to....

Uh... To...

Uh... Sell more copies of my books. Wenches!

Big name. Woman alone on cover. Overly big dress.

That is the look that historical romance publishers give to their bestselling authors. I didn't make it up, yo. _I copied it, and that's what smart marketers do._ While I appreciate your willingness to hand the look over to me wholesale, I hope this illustrates how ridiculously dangerous your rule is.

And yes, the fonts and poses are somewhat different...but in the two covers that started this exchange, the fonts are not the same, and the pose is totally different.


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## AnitaDobs (Sep 18, 2012)

Damn Miss Milan, you're sexy when you're on fire.

*phew*


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## RockyGrede (Apr 19, 2013)

Not at all copying. 

Though they might look similar, there is no basis for asking the author to change it.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Al Stevens said:


> This is a psychic energy sink. You can get bogged down in the issue of righting a perceived wrong and burn precious time better spent writing the next book.
> 
> ....the point is, don't let something like this eat you alive. Don't be upset. Write the next book, and don't give your precious royalties to lawyers to fight a battle you probably can't win and that won't be worth what it costs. Especially in psychic energy.


Word.

Charles Dickens knew this almost 200 years ago, too.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Kathy Clark a.k.a. Bob Kat said:


> Generally speaking if you can't copyright something you won't make your back on stopping someone from doing something similar. I doubt a cover design where the image, fonts and words are not the same can be copyrighted and is much of a rip off that any reputable lawyer will help you out with.
> 
> I'd let go.


This isn't directed at you specifically, Kathy. I'm just using your comment to make the below point:

Authors need to spend some time learning exactly w hat "copyright" means and applies to. The word gets thrown around far too much and far too loosely among a group of people who, as writers and therefore creators/artists, ought to know more about copyright than the average person.

There was never anything remotely "copyright related" about the similarity of the two covers, because you CANNOT copyright styles, layouts, color schemes, or ideals. And the cover certainly wasn't trademarked, nor contained any trademarked elements (like a specific logo or character), so that was out of the question too.

Everyone please take some time to learn about copyright because you of all people NEED to know what it actually is.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Greg Banks said:


> This isn't directed at you specifically, Kathy. I'm just using your comment to make the below point:
> 
> Authors need to spend some time learning exactly w hat "copyright" means and applies to. The word gets thrown around far too much and far too loosely among a group of people who, as writers and therefore creators/artists, ought to know more about copyright than the average person.
> 
> ...


You think copyright is thrown around here, go to a pattern website with forums and mention the word. It is even worse. Copyright means copying exactly. Trademark is logos and such.
Example Coca-cola is a trademark but coke is not. 
"The red badge of courage" is copyrighted as a book but any author can use the same words as a title.
heck just at Amazon I ran across two books with the same title "Firebrand" both are copyrighted as to the content inside but the title isn't. One was a romance and the other was non-fiction.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

AndiAlexander said:


> Hey, I was impressed by the Hugh Howey thing, too!


So then should I be impressed that Hugh Howey quoted me? Or horrified that he disagreed with me?


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> Dark blue background composed of historical looking wallpaper? Bright pink, fluffy dresses? And they're ALL reissues and compilations?
> 
> Clearly, I have been betrayed by the entirety of the bestselling historical romance authors in the world! They're all trading on my reputation, to....
> 
> ...


As you said, none of those have the same font, which is one of the criteria I mentioned. So it's kind of unfair to list ones that don't to try to prove me wrong.

Yes, romance novels tend to have women with dresses on the cover. You picking out a few with colors close to yours doesn't prove anything. There's not many characteristics to those covers: Woman in dress, background, author's name, and title.

The cover mentioned in the OP has more characteristics. Black bar along the top, black gradient from bottom, subtitle at top, title in the middle, author name at bottom, similar titles, similar fonts, similar switch of color in title, similar switch of font in title, similar color of author's name.

It's not even a fair comparison. The covers you showed basically have a woman wearing a dress, which is a staple in your genre. I'd be astonished if you couldn't find a few other with the same color dress and background. If you at least showed someone with the same font as you, you'd at least have three characteristics in common. The cover in the OP has at least six characteristics in common. Apples and oranges.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

swolf said:


> As you said, none of those have the same font, which is one of the criteria I mentioned. So it's kind of unfair to list ones that don't to try to prove me wrong.


You're right. The fonts I showed are just SIMILAR to mine. They're not actually the same. I felt that was fair since the fonts you're talking about here are SIMILAR, not the same. The sans serif font is different. (Compare the R and the T). And the scripty font is VERY different--look how different those two As are. One is a smooth, stylish script, and the other one is a chunky handwriting. So the similarity between the fonts I'm comparing here is equivalent.

And if you look at the final three covers, it's not just that they have similar colors. It's the same darned type of wallpaper in the background, not just the color. All three women have curly hair. They're all facing to the left, and they all have placed text to the side of the cover where the figure isn't. And all the author names are in white. CRAZINESS.



> The cover mentioned in the OP has more characteristics. Black bar along the top, black gradient from bottom, subtitle at top, title in the middle, author name at bottom, similar titles, similar fonts, similar switch of color in title, similar switch of font in title, similar color of author's name.


I think you are totally missing the point.

You're acting like these things are totally disconnected--as if someone would randomly choose to put a black gradient on the bottom of a cover, and then overlay the author name and the title over the image and leave the place with the black gradient blank. Like someone would put a black bar at the top and leave it blank, or like if you created a cover that had only one accent color in the cover, you wouldn't use that same accent color in the fonts.

And the one-color+black-and-white thing plus a black gradient on the bottom? That's an iconic look in the genre. It comes from Sylvia Day's BARED TO YOU/REFLECTED IN YOU covers in the first place. The reason covers that look like this are a Thing in the genre? It's because of Sylvia Day.

These covers came about because someone said, "I want a look like Sylvia Day's, but I'm going to make it different by adding the following two elements: A black bar across the top, and a two tone name."

That's why I find this baffling--because both of these covers are OBVIOUSLY striving to be knock offs of something else.

Acting like these people just happened to make these decisions independently is just weird. The main thrust of the cover is clearly copied. Half the design elements are copied. Half of the remaining elements are demanded by graphic design principles. There just aren't that many degrees of freedom left in a cover like this.

These covers look similar because they're both copying the same market trends, and happened to copy them in the same way.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> These covers look similar because they're both copying the same market trends, and happened to copy them in the same way.


I think this about sums it up. When you want your book to sell, following the current trends for covers in your genre or subgenre is a smart thing to do. It helps tell your intended audience, "Hey, here's the sort of book you're looking for." The downside is that this tends to result in a lot of similar covers.


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## Tabitha Levin (Nov 1, 2011)

I wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I'm humbled that so many of you, including some of my favorite authors, have given your thoughts.

I've moved passed this now. Yesterday I had a little author tantrum over my cover, but today is a new, fresh day. I'm sure the other author feels the same.

Thanks again
Tracey


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

I wanted to thank everyone who posted in this thread for their thoughts regarding this matter. I also want to thank all the wonderful seasoned authors who sent me private messages and sparked conversations. It almost feels a little surreal to have a cover that came into existence by my playing around in Gimp garner so much attention, especially from those I have admired as writers for a long time.

After a lot thought, reflection, and Elle Casey making me cry*&#8230; I decided to go ahead and change the cover. I kept a few basic elements for aesthetic reasons, but the cover was changed. (Including the color, which I changed to a lovely shade of bright pink.)

Whether I "copied" the OP's cover is highly irrelevant. I had no knowledge of her or her series prior to receiving an email. As most of you pointed out, this is not a case that would be winnable in court, nor is it really worth the expense that both the OP and I would have to go to in order to settle in that fashion. (Especially considering we reside on separate continents.)

The most important thing this issue taught me was that _my _cover wasn't original _enough_. While many of you speculated that there was some sort of "marketing" or "brand play" at work, I must remind you that I am a new author. I write stories I would want to read. I have covers that I personally think look cool. No marketing/branding really applied. 

(For those who were insistent that I even used the same "shade" of green and black bars. That particular color came to play after seven color overlays, and the bars from my trying to crop photo equipment out of a stock image. Go figure.)

I don't want there to be any bad blood between myself and any other authors. Therefore, I really want to say thank you to Tracey for bringing all this up. Her original private message to me was nothing but friendly and professional. Best of all, I discovered a new author and series that I want to read!

That said, new cover:










Have a great remainer of your weekend, y'all. I'm going to go get back to writing 

*Only because I'm a total fan girl and the fact that she was pushing so hard for someone to sue the pants off me was a little off-putting. I'll get over it.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

I think Courtney hit the nail on the head with this one. 

Glad to see the issue has been resolved. And so gracefully on both ends! (I can imagine how it would freak me out to have an accusation like that leveled at me!)


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

> That said, new cover:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Graceful end on the part of both authors. Kudos to you both! And I like your new cover MUCH better, Andi! The new 'fancy font' is nicer than the original, too, so it looks like this actually worked out in your favor. I hope you sell a ton of copies. Good luck!!!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I think your new cover is a decided improvement, Andi. I think the pink is eye-catching, and that the script you used on the new cover looks much more professional than the original script.



> The most important thing this issue taught me was that my cover wasn't original enough.


The truth of the matter is that most covers are derivative. There are an awful lot of covers out there, and the covers in any given genre tend to have a certain similarity. This is not a bad thing, as I said above; it lets readers know what they're buying.

Good luck to both you ladies with your writing!


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## keithdraws (May 20, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> You want a brand in your cover design? COMPOSE YOUR BRAND OUT OF NON-GENERIC ELEMENTS.


I agree.
But perhaps I would go as far as saying "Compose your brand out of custom designed elements". 
When an Author asks me to create a brand for their work I will generally make, at the very least, custom typography(even on the special offers).
There can be no argument then. The lawyers will win hands down if it ever went to court.

This is different. What you have is an unfortunate case of similar cover layout. It's not even exactly the same so there is no argument other than either coincidence or style imitation which is not the same as brand infringement or copyright infringement. To be certain you could talk to a specialist such as TMA http://goo.gl/lbPke2 but I think you'd be wasting your money.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> You're acting like these things are totally disconnected--as if someone would randomly choose to put a black gradient on the bottom of a cover, and then overlay the author name and the title over the image and leave the place with the black gradient blank. Like someone would put a black bar at the top and leave it blank, or like if you created a cover that had only one accent color in the cover, you wouldn't use that same accent color in the fonts.


Well, that's what the author of the second cover is claiming Maybe you should be arguing with him/her.

I'm simply making the point that if my cover was that close to someone else's who has a brand, I would change it. (And it seems the author has done that.)



Courtney Milan said:


> And the one-color+black-and-white thing plus a black gradient on the bottom? That's an iconic look in the genre. It comes from Sylvia Day's BARED TO YOU/REFLECTED IN YOU covers in the first place. The reason covers that look like this are a Thing in the genre? It's because of Sylvia Day.
> 
> These covers came about because someone said, "I want a look like Sylvia Day's, but I'm going to make it different by adding the following two elements: A black bar across the top, and a two tone name."


Again, that's not what the author is claiming.



Courtney Milan said:


> That's why I find this baffling--because both of these covers are OBVIOUSLY striving to be knock offs of something else.
> 
> Acting like these people just happened to make these decisions independently is just weird.


Again, take that up with the author. I'm not making that claim, so I'm not sure why you're being flippant in your responses to me.



Courtney Milan said:


> The main thrust of the cover is clearly copied. Half the design elements are copied. Half of the remaining elements are demanded by graphic design principles. There just aren't that many degrees of freedom left in a cover like this.


So it seems we agree that it's a copy, although I'm not quite ready to claim it's intentional. So our only disagreement is what to do about it. My opinion is that I wouldn't want my covers that close to someone else's. (Nor someone else's that close to mine.)


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## LillianB (Jul 7, 2013)

Unfortunately, with stock pics, it will happen.  Granted - she could have used another color besides green.  I wouldn't worry about it.  I also agree that it would be a waste of time to go after her.

-L


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> I think your new cover is a decided improvement, Andi. I think the pink is eye-catching, and that the script you used on the new cover looks much more professional than the original script.
> 
> Good luck to both you ladies with your writing!


Thank you! 



R M Rowan said:


> Graceful end on the part of both authors. Kudos to you both! And I like your new cover MUCH better, Andi! The new 'fancy font' is nicer than the original, too, so it looks like this actually worked out in your favor. I hope you sell a ton of copies. Good luck!!!


And thank you!  I'm happier overall with the look, it worked out for the OP, and all is well. Thanks again to everyone who chimed in.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Andi, even though I'm not the OP, I'd like to thank you for making changes to the cover. That's exactly the right decision in these circumstances! It's what the pros do, and definitely better for your public image (if the roles were reversed, I'd be advising Traceye to make changes, merely because she did it second). While changing the green to pink isn't exactly a "save" (noting that the OP has covers in numerous colours), adding the low opacity white bar and pink border lines does make the cover different enough that it's not a carbon copy.
I take my hat off to you for having the guts to make changes, even though the "copy" wasn't intentional.

To Courtney, I respect your arguments but I don't agree with them. Your examples of "copies" aren't copies at all. They're following a design trope for the genre. While the key elements are indeed similar, they're not arranged in the exact same fashion, and not part of an obvious attempt to brand covers. I agree that the branding isn't unique, but the fact that this branding is replicated across all of the OP's books is enough to show that it's a brand and simply a common design trope of the genre (yes, other eroticas have black bars, but Andi's version copied EVERYTHING about the OP's cover design). Quoting my first post for emphasis. I'm with Swolf's assessments.



BelindaPepper said:


> I'm with Hugh- it's not just the black bar and the green colour- EVERYTHING about this cover looks like a copy, whether it was intended or not:
> 
> > Black bar up the top (one that isn't actually needed in the "copy"... it's like the unnecessary label "an erotic short" was added just so there would be text up the top). Note that the text is also in white.
> > Same shade and gradient of what is a fairly unique green for the genre
> ...


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## philstern (Mar 14, 2011)

Your cover has a blond being kissed in a green tinged forest. Her's has a brunette being fondled in front of a green screen.

Entirely different.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

philstern said:


> Your cover has a blond being kissed in a green tinged forest. Her's has a brunette being fondled in front of a green screen.
> 
> Entirely different.


I've come up with a new cover design, Phil. I hope you don't mind!*










*I should note that I've got absolutely nothing against you dude, it's just that crummy photoshop hacks are the best way I can attempt to make a point. Forgive me. 

Basically, the fact that the stock images are different is kinda irrelevant, imo.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

swolf said:


> So it seems we agree that it's a copy, although I'm not quite ready to claim it's intentional. So our only disagreement is what to do about it. My opinion is that I wouldn't want my covers that close to someone else's. (Nor someone else's that close to mine.)


No we don't. My use of "copy" referred to both authors riffing off of standard elements of the genre from separate sources, not to one author copying from the other.

The second author explicitly said she'd never heard of or seen the first cover when she created it. To be a copy you have to have seen the original. The covers weren't copies of each other. They were independently derived.



BelindaPepper said:


> To Courtney, I respect your arguments but I don't agree with them. Your examples of "copies" aren't copies at all. They're following a design trope for the genre. While the key elements are indeed similar, they're not arranged in the exact same fashion, and not part of an obvious attempt to brand covers. I agree that the branding isn't unique, but the fact that this branding is replicated across all of the OP's books is enough to show that it's a brand and simply a common design trope of the genre (yes, other eroticas have black bars, but Andi's version copied EVERYTHING about the OP's cover design). Quoting my first post for emphasis. I'm with Swolf's assessments.


Look, the word "copy" has meaning. It requires that you examine the original first and then...like...copy it. It's not a copy without examination of the original. It's an independent and parallel creation when you have no examination of the original.

Can we please recognize that continuing to call it a "copy" when Andi has stated she never saw the first cover is calling her a liar?


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## philstern (Mar 14, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> I've come up with a new cover design, Phil. I hope you don't mind!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm stunned and honored that you would take the time to do a mock up of my cover. Actually, I think it's kind of neat.

But to your point, if someone was specifically copying somebody's cover, and deliberately designing something to "fool" readers, then that would be wrong.

But let's be honest here. With all the covers being produced for indie authors, isn't it inevitable that some would be similar? Even very, very similar?

And what would be the incentive for someone to mimic a cover of a book that wasn't famous? Would that even benefit them?

So, short of some damning evidence to the contrary, I think this is probably just a coincidence. But that's just my initial impression.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Courtney Milan said:


> Look, the word "copy" has meaning. It requires that you examine the original first and then...like...copy it. It's not a copy without examination of the original. It's an independent and parallel creation when you have no examination of the original.
> 
> Can we please recognize that continuing to call it a "copy" when Andi has stated she never saw the first cover is calling her a liar?


I'm pretty sure I've already stated a number of times in this thread that I agree it's entirely possible to come up with a "copy" without ever having seen the "original".  I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt, so if Andi said it wasn't intentional, I'm inclined to believe her. That doesn't stop the fact that they're super duper similar, which is what my whole stance has been about. If you can come up with a better word than "copy" (that still retains its meaning in the context of this thread) then I'm happy to use that. 

I think Andi has done the right thing in rectifying this issue, so right now I'm just trying to call into question the argument that the covers didn't look enough alike... which, I would have thought, the likeness was kinda.... obvious?


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

BelindaPepper said:


> I'm pretty sure I've already stated a number of times in this thread that I agree it's entirely possible to come up with a "copy" without ever having seen the "original".  I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt, so if Andi said it wasn't intentional, I'm inclined to believe her. That doesn't stop the fact that they're super duper similar, which is what my whole stance has been about. If you can come up with a better word than "copy" (that still retains its meaning in the context of this thread) then I'm happy to use that.
> 
> I think Andi has done the right thing in rectifying this issue, so right now I'm just trying to call into question the argument that the covers didn't look enough alike... which, I would have thought, the likeness was kinda.... obvious?


I think the word you're looking for is something like "likeness" or "similarity."

I don't think anyone has argued that it's not similar.

My issue is with equating copying (which is what you did to Phil's novella cover) with "parallel yet independent similarity" and THEN acting as if the two are morally equivalent.

I don't think there are any moral issues with parallel yet independent similarity.


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

philstern said:


> I'm stunned and honored that you would take the time to do a mock up of my cover. Actually, I think it's kind of neat.
> 
> But to your point, if someone was specifically copying somebody's cover, and deliberately designing something to "fool" readers, then that would be wrong.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, it's entirely possible that this was just a freak occurrence. We see it in writing all the time (i.e. writing a novel that is crazy similar to a novel you've never even heard of before).

Like I said in my first post, Chip Kidd was informed that one of his cover designs was a virtual carbon copy of another book. He couldn't have possibly stolen the design, because it hadn't even been released at the time he designed his version!

The moral of the story that I'm trying to drive home here (and that Andi has graciously done) is that if you are informed that you've created a design that is THIS SIMILAR to another design, you should change it, whether the "ripoff" was intentional or not. It would be a bad business decision not to.

Regarding "motivation", the OP's books actually have a pretty strong following, so in the case that this WAS intentional (which I don't believe is the case), you could definitely say that Andi (a new author) could definitely benefit from brand confusion. A book doesn't have to be uber famous to benefit from something like this- it just has to be doing better than yours.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

The word is homoplasy.

B.


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

BelindaPepper said:


> The moral of the story that I'm trying to drive home here (and that Andi has graciously done) is that if you are informed that you've created a design that is THIS SIMILAR to another design, you should change it, whether the "ripoff" was intentional or not. It would be a bad business decision not to.


I will admit that I was shocked last night when the OP first approached me. My immediate reaction was an emotional one; which was basically to tell the OP no way in hell was I changing my cover.

Then, I actually had time to sit and think about the whole situation and detach emotion from it.

The covers do look alike and I could see where the OP was coming from. (The word "copy" does irk me a bit... because there was no way I could copy a design I knew nothing about.)

_Was changing it annoying and extra work for me?_ Yes, especially so because I have nine other coordinating covers to go with it for future releases.

_Was changing it the reasonable and prudent thing to do? _ Yes, it was. Her cover came first.

_Did it turn out to be an even better cover?_ Oh heck yes!  I'm happier with the second one than I ever was the first.

Trying to put off a "good" or "bad" business image has little to do with it. I've set my course with this writing gig. Sales or not, I'll probably continue to put a new short story out a week until I die. It is what I like to do and if someone else finds pleasure in my stories, then so be it.

But, I am grateful for everyone who has chimed in that this was a good decision. So, thank you 

ETA: I know it is still showing up with the old cover at Amazon/in my signature. I've already submitted the update to D2D.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> No we don't. My use of "copy" referred to both authors riffing off of standard elements of the genre from separate sources, not to one author copying from the other.
> 
> The second author explicitly said she'd never heard of or seen the first cover when she created it. To be a copy you have to have seen the original. The covers weren't copies of each other. They were independently derived.


You're the one who brought up the word copy. I just agreed with you.

And I'm not sure how you can determine the source of where they were copied from. If we're going by just the covers themselves, they look much more like each other than the source you're referring to. So I find it odd you're insisting it was copied, but it wasn't copied from the one it looks most like.

I agree they both could have been copied from the same source, so I'm not going to accuse anyone of being a liar. But that's all beside the point. The point is that, whatever the reason, the two covers were very similar. Almost identical, in fact.

And once again my ONLY point is that I wouldn't be comfortable having a cover that close to someone else's, especially if that's their brand.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

AndiAlexander said:


> The covers do look alike and I could see where the OP was coming from. (The word "copy" does irk me a bit... because there was no way I could copy a design I knew nothing about.)


I have a question concerning the discussion I'm having with Courtney. When you designed this cover, did you start off wanting it to look like specific covers from a successful author (possibly Sylvia Day), and then set about to make them different by adding other elements?


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

B.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you realize how often different movies from different studios have movie posters that ape each other's style? If Hollywood can't prevent this, I doubt you'll have much luck.   

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

B. Justin Shier said:


> B.


Sorry... But this is funny.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

Wow! How often do we see a dispute settled so graciously. I'm applauding both of you.


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## Jacob Crow (Jun 25, 2013)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> Wow! How often do we see a dispute settled so graciously. I'm applauding both of you.


Almost never. Which brings on an idea for some free advertising:

Log in under your real name and vehemently attack your pen name for copying your cover, book, etc.

Make sure to show the covers of both books repeatedly.

Log out and come back as your pen name, enraged, incensed and on the brink of tears, but still dignified in your response.

Jump from name to name with a little banter before you pull back and let the two fractions your name and your pen name created on the board battle it out for you.

Pray the moderators do not stop the fun.

Let your pen name present an altered cover and admit to be a _little_ bit wrong.

Let your real name take the olive branch gracefully.

Voila. You just snared yourself two fan groups.

Or am I being cynical and paranoid?


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## Tabitha Levin (Nov 1, 2011)

Jacob Crow said:


> Almost never. Which brings on an idea for some free advertising ...


Jacob, are you implying that Andi and I are the same person?

LOL. Um, no.

But thanks for the laugh!


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## BelindaPepper (May 19, 2013)

Jacob Crow said:


> Or am I being cynical and paranoid?


Yup! 

But oh dear, what does that say about the usual happenings that the only explanation for civility is that it's a big conspiracy? *giggles*


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## Pamela (Oct 6, 2010)

Very funny, Jacob.  Who cares if you're being cynical or paranoid.

We are talking about an author with one "book?"  It's 19 pages!  19?  Is it even a short story?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

AndiAlexander said:


> I will admit that I was shocked last night when the OP first approached me. My immediate reaction was an emotional one; which was basically to tell the OP no way in hell was I changing my cover.
> 
> Then, I actually had time to sit and think about the whole situation and detach emotion from it.
> 
> ...


Can you imagine what the internet would be like if everyone was as reasonable and badass as you are?

This thread is full of win.


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## Kitty French (Dec 3, 2012)

My fear with having a cover that is incredibly similar to another / others is that readers might pass it by because they mistakenly think they've read it already.
It's tricky to try to stay within the genre norm and be different at the same time though, isn't it? I try not to use couple pics for that exact reason, but those covers appeal to me A LOT so it's hard to stay away!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> We are talking about an author with one "book?" It's 19 pages! 19? Is it even a short story?


Yes, it's a short story. And everyone has to start somewhere. By this time next year, she may be the next Hugh Howey or Amanda Hocking. You never know.


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## AndiAlexander (Jul 30, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Can you imagine what the internet would be like if everyone was as reasonable and bad*ss as you are?
> 
> This thread is full of win.


  Thank you, Mr. Howey.


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