# Cautionary Tale On BookButterfly "Guaranteed" Results



## Catherine Lea (Jul 16, 2013)

I ran a promo last month and one of the sites I used was BookButterfly. It was an expensive slot ($90) but I decided that since they guarantee at least 50 sales or money back, I'd give it a go.

The results were, let's say, less than terrific. I tried to put up the sales graph here but failed . I'd done promos with ENT, FKBT, Kboards, amongst others, but the BookButterfly ran on the 24th. During that time my sales show an increase of around 20 from the base, then hit the cliff.

When I approached them about it, this is the response I got.

On 10/04/2016 8:25 a.m., Abhishek Singh wrote:
> 1) Nope, you're mistaken.
> 
> 2) This is rank tracking: > 
> I see it going from #1,523 up a bit, then falling a lot as previous promotion effect, went away, then our promotion kicks in and takes your book to #1,347 by early next morning. Which is right around what 50 sales over 2 days would do. _Um, no it's not. Rank is definitely not only reliant on sales, but on the sales of other books and Amazon's algos_
> 
> 2b) contact Us page has wrong old prices. _Then perhaps you should have updated it_
> 
> 
> 3) This is post.
> 
> Your book is #1 in Mystery/Thriller List, it's in Women's Fiction part, and it's #1 in Deals List. 
> 
> Here: http://freebookdeals.com/2016/03/24/0-1-1-series-special-free-ny-times-usa-today-bestselling-authors-free-zen-guide-free-golden-heart-award-winner-112-free-kindle-books-11-kindle-book-deals/ _My book being #1 in your email does not mean I got the sales_
> 
> 
> 4) We only guarantee total sales. If total sales on 24th and 25th (with baseline of days when you are not promoting the books subtracted) is less than 50 we'll gladly do refunds. However, rank change above indicates well over 50 sales. Baseline is days when you were not doing promotions, not days when promotion was being done._Again, rank is NOT a precise indicator of sales_
> 
> 5) Refund rate on thrillers is less than 5%. That's for books run ONLY IN THRILLERS. Your book was also run in Women's Fiction 
> _Hang on a second, this is what's on the payment information you send out:Note from 7 Dragons Inc

Silver 50 Slot Please Note: Moneyback guarantee does not apply if your misrepresent the price history of your book or if you change the price before the promotion is over. Please Note: Moneyback Guarantee is a prorated refund. If we get you only 80% of specified book sales, then we refund you 20% of your money. _
> 6) Here's what actually happened
> 
> We got you the sales _Actually, you did not_
> You are either using the wrong measuring method (assuming that sales from previous promotion will stay forever and we should generate 50 sales over it). Or you're attributing it wrongly to other promotions which didn't work. _So, my sales reports on Amazon are incorrect?_
> We're the only site that guarantees results and offers a prorated refund (there's one more but very few people know about it so pretty sure you didn't use it. _Fat lot of use it is_
> So the natural inclination is to hope that it was our site that didn't perform and the other sites, which don't guarantee results, performed.
> 
> ****************
> 
> 7) I'd welcome to run only with us in future and see results. We're one of only two sites for book promotion that guarantee results. IT's because our results are very good. _I'm sure you would but I'm not stupid enough to pay you again_
> 
>  If KDP results don't show 50 sales above non-promotion day baseline I'll gladly do prorated refund.
> However, as you may very well imagine, and as terms of service clearly indicate.
> 
> WE do not guarantee other sites' performance. Only the total.
>

I found the whole nature of this reply rude and unprofessional. Needless to say, I won't be using them again


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## Carol Davis (Dec 9, 2013)

I had a similar experience with him, Catherine. Almost every bit of it.


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## Catherine Lea (Jul 16, 2013)

Carol Davis said:


> I had a similar experience with him, Catherine. Almost every bit of it.


I'm not arguing with him. I don't have the time or the inclination. But I hope this is at least a warning to other authors.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the heads-up.


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

*Thanks for the heads up Catherine.

Gorgeous Lucky B,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.*


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## UnicornEmily (Jul 2, 2011)

Thank you for sharing that!  I agree, that's unprofessional and very rude (he basically accused you of lying).  I think I'll take BookButterfly off my list of "sites that are sometimes worth using."


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

This whole guaranteed-sale thing is flawed. They do not use affiliate links like most sites, which would show exact sales. They only go by rank to determine sales performance, which changes from day to day and is now skewed greatly because of KU borrows/reads. I don't see how they can fight with you if you know how many sales you got with their promo. Their service seems to be going down hill more and more.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

I tried to promote with them once, but they mistakenly identify my series as a serial and turned me down. I told them as much and their reply was as brusque as the one you received. I wrote them off after that. I'm glad I did.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Without seeing actual ranks and sales, I'm not going to comment on the details here.

What I will note is that for a site that doesn't do its own tracking that's advertising books in KU that are being otherwise promoted, sales rank will not give that site a true indication of SALES. The rank will give the site an indication of the total combination of SALES plus BORROWS. There is absolutely NO WAY the site itself can know how much of the rank is due to SALES and how much to GHOST BORROWS. If their guarantee is only for SALES, then they cannot simply look at the rank of a KU book and refute the number of sales claimed. Can't. Be. Done.


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## LadyStarlight (Nov 14, 2014)

I've had the EXACT same experience with them. This guy basically told me I was a moron and didn't know what I was talking about. I found it VERY unprofessional. Needless to say, I won't be using them ever again.


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## LindsayBuroker (Oct 13, 2013)

I've gotten enough sales with them in the past to book them again, but I also don't track things that closely (I usually have other promos going on at the same time and regular day-to-day sales, so that's tough). I'm really surprised they base things on sales rank though. Aren't they using affiliate links? I can tell you exactly how many copies of someone's book I sell when I mention it in a newsletter...


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I've used them twice, one time I received a refund (on a novella) and the other time it was within 2-3 books of being right, at leats I'm pretty sure it was.

I'll probably use them again for a promotion but I'm going to keep an eye on it this time. :-0

Thank you for sharing your experience.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

LindsayBuroker said:


> . I'm really surprised they base things on sales rank though. Aren't they using affiliate links? I can tell you exactly how many copies of someone's book I sell when I mention it in a newsletter...


Hey Lindsay, we had a long conversation about all that with the site owner last year:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,208313.0.html


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I've also heard that they're spamming authors hard on FB. 

Not cool.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Monique said:


> I've also heard that they're spamming authors hard on FB.
> 
> Not cool.


I can vouch for this. Myself and 5 people I know.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

My novel performed very poorly on this service last week on a dollars-to-dollars comparison with other promo sites. I had better results from a $13 promo a few days before. I'm not going to be snarky because I received a reasonably pro-rated refund, but yeah. At the price point the experience was eh. "Some books don't connect" is what I was told.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

I've used them a few times now and have had okay to good results with them. Actually, the first time I used them, the title didn't sell well and they gave me a refund without me asking. The other three promos I ran with them have all done better. I think it's a YMMV depending on genre. 


As for them being rude...well if one is rude to one's clients, one won't have clients for long. So if Booksbutterfly is reading this thread, perhaps they will look and see all the business they are driving away.

That said, they are another tool in my toolbox and I will likely be using them again next time I launch a new release.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

I have never understood their pricing model. They "guarantee" 25 sales at $0.99... and it costs you $50. So even if you're part of Select and get 70% royalties, those 25 sales brings in revenue of $17... for a cost of $50.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Unfortunately there are a lot of websites out there who don't have people signed up.

Bookbub is great
ENT
BKNIGHT ( for free not paid )


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Monique said:


> I've also heard that they're spamming authors hard on FB.
> 
> Not cool.


Yeah, I got a message from them on my author page a few weeks ago. Which is really funny, because I contacted them late January to book a promo and asked what their cancellation policy was, and Abhi was so offended that I was the kind of person who would book a promo knowing that there might be a chance I'd need to cancel that he basically told me never to contact him again and that he refused to work with me because I was a manipulative person.

His entire email, like yours, was very rude and unprofessional, and the whole thing still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since I asked Booksends about their cancellation policy the same night and they were very happy to explain to me what my options were if I needed to change or cancel my date (which is NORMAL).


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

It sounds like a case of "The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing."


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## bundtbaby (Jul 22, 2014)

I ran an ad with them for a box set and I was happy with it. But like someone else said, I didn't track the numbers that carefully. But I would use them again.


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## J.T. Williams (Aug 7, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> It sounds like a case of "The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing."


I agree.

I had a promotion run without them ever sending me a Paypal notice and a month later I was contacted like I had intentionally "misled" them. It was surprisingly rude for the fact that they never sent the Paypal invoice and I had no so many other invoices I never noticed...I thought at first maybe they couldn't get me in then I got the email saying my promotion ran...

Once they contacted me, I paid what I agreed to and did have results as expected but it was odd that they got my submission info, ran my promotion, and then acted like it was my fault I didn't pay. Honestly, they got what I expected with my results so their not bad promoters just not the best at customer service.

I'm not sure what is going on behind the scenes.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

I ran a promotion with them a few days ago and got the 500 downloads for $50 for my permafree. If the book was in KU, I wouldn't bother with them. But I ran the ad mainly to boost my BN and iBook downloads, so I was okay with the results. I think they aren't the only promo sites that are under performing these days.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

It always baffles me how certain businesses completely drop the ball on customer service.

He could have simply compared notes with you and gave you a pro-rated a refund once you disagreed and invited you back next time. Perhaps he could've even offered to run another slot for you for free. But instead, the $45 bucks or whatever he wanted to argue about has ultimately cost him hundreds or thousands of dollars now that other authors are going to avoid him.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've run a couple promos with them. Both times the results were awful. Once they argued with me that my book was selling too well to do well with them (what?!) and once they just grumbled and tried to tell me I was wrong about the results, but both times they refunded me. Given the grumbling, the terrible method of just trying to track your rank (so you can't promo them alongside any other promo which makes them pointless anyway), and given my awful null results, I'll likely never use them again. Not worth it. I wouldn't run anything alone except Bookbub anyway, so I have no use for a site I can't stack with other promo.

I've heard worse stories about their rudeness, too, and things like them trying to claim Bookbub after-effects as their own etc.  So... I'd advise severe caution and don't promo stack with them, ever.


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

Annie B said:


> I've run a couple promos with them. Both times the results were awful. Once they argued with me that my book was selling too well to do well with them (what?!) and once they just grumbled and tried to tell me I was wrong about the results, but both times they refunded me. Given the grumbling, the terrible method of just trying to track your rank (so you can't promo them alongside any other promo which makes them pointless anyway), and given my awful null results, I'll likely never use them again. Not worth it. I wouldn't run anything alone except Bookbub anyway, so I have no use for a site I can't stack with other promo.
> 
> I've heard worse stories about their rudeness, too, and things like them trying to claim Bookbub after-effects as their own etc. So... I'd advise severe caution and don't promo stack with them, ever.


*So because your books are already selling so well, they aren't able to do anything to help boost the sales up just a notch. That sounds weird to me.

Gorgeous Lucky B,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.*


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## 87552 (Nov 4, 2015)

BookButterfly There, done. It is already hard as it is to start from scratch, see lower than low sales and try to understand the system. Adding these kind of disrespectful attitude from a paid service is simply unacceptable. I will not be using them. Thanks for the heads up!


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## Paul Kohler (Aug 14, 2013)

I used them on my last promo. The results were indeterminable, as I was also running other ads withing days of them. On the day that they ran, I was excited to see the "guarantee" sales come rolling in. I only got half of them on the first day, and just less than the other half on the second day.  Initially, I was upset that the guarantee didn't come through on that first day, but they claim that it's over the next day as well. I had another ad booked on the next day, so it was difficult to ask for a refund because almost all those sales come in - eventually. Regardless, I will not be using them again, either.


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## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

artan said:


> 500 downloads for $50


I wonder how many promo sites have download bots...


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

The fact that the site owner doesn't use affiliate links, and then comes here to argue with us about that sloppy, _unprofessional_ business choice, is enough to make me go "HahahaNO".

Plus, as someone said upstream, he spams authors on Facebook pretty hard. Not me personally, but others I know. Not cool.

This whole rudeness thing is definitely going to make me vocal about telling other authors--and readers--to stay the heck away from Bookbutterfly.


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## danpadavona (Sep 25, 2014)

Their prices are far out of line compared to FKBT, ENT, Robin Reads, BKnights, etc. And no, they've never delivered on the "guaranteed results." 

Sorry to hear you were treated so rudely. I will remove them from my list of advertisers.


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## josielitton (Jul 21, 2014)

Thanks for the heads-up on this. They're off my list.  I mostly deal with Freebooksy, Booksends, and Bknights. All very professional.


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## Chinese Writer (Mar 25, 2014)

JR. said:


> I wonder how many promo sites have download bots...


I actually wonder the same thing. This is my second ad with them. I never stack their ads. This second time, the results were just meh. I can't say anything about their customer service because I haven't ask for a refund yet.


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

Carol Davis said:


> I had a similar experience with him, Catherine. Almost every bit of it.


So did I. And he or she acted like a hysterical teenager throwing a tantrum. Unbelievably unprofessional, sending rapid-fire e-mails, one after another before I even responded.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

josielitton said:


> Thanks for the heads-up on this. They're off my list. I mostly deal with Freebooksy, Booksends, and Bknights. All very professional.


I applied for a Boodsends promo weeks ago and didn't receive a response.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

I guess I will add that they acted slightly irritated that I included a screenshot of my sales graph, like it was insulting. So when asking for a refund, I guess be as placating as possible? Don't know.


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

jazzywaltz said:


> Yeah, I got a message from them on my author page a few weeks ago. Which is really funny, because I contacted them late January to book a promo and asked what their cancellation policy was, and Abhi was so offended that I was the kind of person who would book a promo knowing that there might be a chance I'd need to cancel that he basically told me never to contact him again and that he refused to work with me because I was a manipulative person.
> 
> His entire email, like yours, was very rude and unprofessional, and the whole thing still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Especially since I asked Booksends about their cancellation policy the same night and they were very happy to explain to me what my options were if I needed to change or cancel my date (which is NORMAL).


  Wow. I've booked with them a couple of times in the past, but based on this thread, I won't be using them again.

OP, I may have missed it, but did you send the owner/manager a screen shot of your sales chart to SHOW him you didn't get the guaranteed number of sales? It seems like incontrovertible proof - if they are guaranteeing 50 sales over a two day period, and we can select that single title and show them the number of sales over those two days, then they should honor the refund for the sales you did not get. If that title only sold 37 copies, then you should get a prorated refund for thirteen unsold books.

Or am I missing something in why this wouldn't work in trying to secure a refund you deserve?

And I've gotten the friend request from someone who supposedly works there. Because we had mutual author friends, I thought it was another author, particularly because of the name which sounds very much like a female pen name. About a week later, I got a PM explaining who they were. I haven't unfriended this person because they never post on my timeline or tag me and haven't contacted me since so I don't worry about it. I WILL immediately unfriend and block anyone who tries to post any sort of sales pitch to my page though.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

KeraEmory said:


> I guess I will add that they acted slightly irritated that I included a screenshot of my sales graph, like it was insulting. So when asking for a refund, I guess be as placating as possible? Don't know.


The fact that I would EVER have to be placating to a business when making a customer service complaint is enough to never make me use them ever again. I fired my accountant from last year for exactly this reason because she bit my head off when I complained to her that the IRS tacked on a couple thousand dollars on our return because we didn't give proper evidence regarding our dependents. Not saying customers should have the right to be jerks, but few businesses can afford to be prima-donnas.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

For context, I guess I meant in the sense if "if you just want your money back with a minimum of fuss".


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Daizie said:


> This whole guaranteed-sale thing is flawed. They do not use affiliate links like most sites, which would show exact sales. They only go by rank to determine sales performance, which changes from day to day and is now skewed greatly because of KU borrows/reads. I don't see how they can fight with you if you know how many sales you got with their promo. Their service seems to be going down hill more and more.


I do wonder about anyone making any guarantee on a certain number of sales. Even with a tracking link, it just tracks that someone followed that link to the book. There is no way to know if the person then clicked on the book and bought it. (Please tell me if I'm wrong, because if there is a way to do it, I'd love to know.) Everyone who clicks a link doesn't necessarily buy the book, so how can any number of sales be guaranteed?


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Good point, EB, and when I attached my flat sales graph they seemed annoyed. (Or to be specific: told me it was unnecessary of me. I was just trying to provide data, but I also had no confounding promos running so the lack of performance was obvious.)

And yes they try to claim two days' worth of results.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

ebbrown said:


> I do wonder about anyone making any guarantee on a certain number of sales. Even with a tracking link, it just tracks that someone followed that link to the book. There is no way to know if the person then clicked on the book and bought it. (Please tell me if I'm wrong, because if there is a way to do it, I'd love to know.) Everyone who clicks a link doesn't necessarily buy the book, so how can any number of sales be guaranteed?


This is exactly what the Amazon affilliate tag does. It tells you how many people actually *bought* the books from Amazon after following the link. So, for example, BookBub knows almost exactly how many people buy your book via their links when they run it.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Nathan Elliott said:


> This is exactly what the Amazon affilliate tag does. It tells you how many people actually *bought* the books from Amazon after following the link. So, for example, BookBub knows almost exactly how many people buy your book via their links when they run it.


For paid books, yes, I do use AA links, but is there a way to track for free books? I've been hand-smacked by Amazon for using AA links with free books (against their TOS), and I'm sure that these big promo sites like BB are moving waaay more free books than I am. (if anyone is curious, this is what I was zinged on


> In addition, notwithstanding the advertising fee rates described on this page or anything to the contrary contained in this Operating Agreement, if we determine you are primarily promoting free Kindle eBooks (i.e., eBooks for which the customer purchase price is $0.00), YOU WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE TO EARN ANY ADVERTISING FEES DURING ANY MONTH IN WHICH YOU MEET THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS:
> (a) 20,000 or more free Kindle eBooks are ordered and downloaded during Sessions attributed to your Special Links; and
> (b) At least 80% of all Kindle eBooks ordered and downloaded during Sessions attributed to your Special Links are free Kindle eBooks.


So is there another way besides an AA link to confirm that a person actually followed through and bought a book, rather than just confirming that the link to the page was clicked? I use bitly to track free book clicks & AA to track paid books. I've even stopped using AA links on KU books, because it looks like AA considers them "free" and it's just not worth getting into hotwater with 'zon. One month I was over the 20K download limit and dangerously close to the 80% number, so I just stopped using the AA links for KU books as well. But if there's a link tracker that can tell me a customer actually bought the free book, I'd be all ears.


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## anameyer84 (Mar 29, 2016)

I actually contacted them looking for more of an explanation as to how it worked. They explained it but then sent me an invoice of Paypal for me to buy the $90 package. I was just looking for information. I emailed them to tell them that and the response was very rude. Basically he told me I shouldnt have wasted his time with the questions if I wasnt going to buy.


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## kimberlyloth (May 15, 2014)

Just want to add that I took them off my list a loooong time ago because I hated dealing with him. Plus, he's rude and results are are always so-so. Thanks for posting your experience though. This is one of the reasons I love kboards. We've all got each other's backs .


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## Mystery Maven (Sep 17, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> The fact that I would EVER have to be placating to a business when making a customer service complaint is enough to never make me use them ever again. I fired my accountant from last year for exactly this reason because she bit my head off when I complained to her that the IRS tacked on a couple thousand dollars on our return because we didn't give proper evidence regarding our dependents. Not saying customers should have the right to be jerks, but few businesses can afford to be prima-donnas.


Butterfly thinks they can afford to be just that. They made sure to explain to me how only Bookbub can outdo them, and how authors like me have very few choices if we want to be able to sell books. They also told me that no one books several promos close together. I was treated like a child and an amateur by the most childish and amateurish service provider I've ever dealt with.

I kept it to myself until now because I was concerned about reprisals. Hopefully now my complaint will blend in with the many mistreated customers.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

anameyer84 said:


> I actually contacted them looking for more of an explanation as to how it worked. They explained it but then sent me an invoice of Paypal for me to buy the $90 package. I was just looking for information. I emailed them to tell them that and the response was very rude. Basically he told me I shouldnt have wasted his time with the questions if I wasnt going to buy.


Yikes!

I'm sure he'll be along soon to tell us how wrong we are, and to give his usual (invalid) reasons for failing to use tracking links.


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

anameyer84 said:


> I actually contacted them looking for more of an explanation as to how it worked. They explained it but then sent me an invoice of Paypal for me to buy the $90 package. I was just looking for information. I emailed them to tell them that and the response was very rude. Basically he told me I shouldnt have wasted his time with the questions if I wasnt going to buy.


*Really? That was so uncalled for. Just because someone is looking more information, doesn't necessarily mean that they are ready to buy or what you have to offer them suit their needs. With that kind of attitude, this business won't exist for long.

Gorgeous Lucky B,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.*


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## jenncrowell (Mar 27, 2016)

Wow. What a horrid customer service experience. Thank you for the cautionary tale -- I will definitely avoid this service.


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## josielitton (Jul 21, 2014)

Marian said:


> I applied for a Boodsends promo weeks ago and didn't receive a response.


I'm sorry to hear that. I applied and got a response from them the same day. Here's hoping that your experience was a glitch. My promo is due to run Wed so fingers crossed it goes well.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Mystery Maven said:


> Butterfly thinks they can afford to be just that. They made sure to explain to me how only Bookbub can outdo them, and how authors like me have very few choices if we want to be able to sell books. They also told me that no one books several promos close together. I was treated like a child and an amateur by the most childish and amateurish service provider I've ever dealt with.
> 
> I kept it to myself until now because I was concerned about reprisals. Hopefully now my complaint will blend in with the many mistreated customers.


Yes, they definitely have a "holier than thou" attitude that I, for one, do not appreciate.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

ebbrown said:


> For paid books, yes, I do use AA links, but is there a way to track for free books? I've been hand-smacked by Amazon for using AA links with free books (against their TOS), and I'm sure that these big promo sites like BB are moving waaay more free books than I am. (if anyone is curious, this is what I was zinged on
> So is there another way besides an AA link to confirm that a person actually followed through and bought a book, rather than just confirming that the link to the page was clicked? I use bitly to track free book clicks & AA to track paid books. I've even stopped using AA links on KU books, because it looks like AA considers them "free" and it's just not worth getting into hotwater with 'zon. One month I was over the 20K download limit and dangerously close to the 80% number, so I just stopped using the AA links for KU books as well. But if there's a link tracker that can tell me a customer actually bought the free book, I'd be all ears.


I dunno, but I think that you cannot selectively use the affiliate tag on some but not all links. I think you are required to use it on all links on the site if you use it on any. Of course not everyone does this andf they seem to get away with it, but I've seen others mention that it needs to be on all links or none. (I have not read the TOS in a while and don't remember what they say about this)

I think BookBub uses (or did last I checked) two affiliate codes. One for free and one for paid, so that they can presumably keep track of both. They may have a special agreement with Amazon about that. I dunno. But even if you are at risk of losing the ad fees for the month, the ability to track free downloads might still be worth that to you if you ran a promo service. I would not automatically assume that the ad fees are worth more than the download data you miss out on by not linking freebies.

I don't think there is any way to track free downloads besides using Amazon's affiliate tags. From a technological standpoint, it would seem that you need Amazon's cooperation to get that data b/c the click that you care about is going to *their* server.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

insane, definitely will not be doing business with them


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I don't think there is any way to track free downloads besides using Amazon's affiliate tags.


Affiliate tags don't track downloads, but more than 20,000 clicks on free products and I think Amazon starts dinking you.

You don't HAVE to put an affiliate tag on every book on your site, but for a lot of the scripts that automatically tag links for you (Viglink's tag for instance) it can be a pain to take the links off. Manually taking the code off of books that are free would be a pain in the ass.

With KU books they can't track borrows very well--affiliate tags or not. It may be that people downloaded books, put them into their libraries, but didn't read, so to KU author it looks like Butterfly doesn't work. A system that tracks clicks to your Amazon page might be enough data though. Maybe GoogleAnalytics? But then again, the way Butterfly works they have a LOT of sites, all sending peeps to your books, and it would be a pain collecting all that data--especially clicks across multiple genres. But it would be nice if Butterfly could promise to deliver X number of clicks to your page instead of sales. I track downloads/click ratios pretty closely with FB ads and GenrePulse and that would be enough data for me to judge their effectiveness.

I know that for a number of books I have, eBookButterfly has been the next best thing after BookBub. I've always gotten along well with them, and they've told me upfront when they've thought something wouldn't deliver.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks...

I've removed several posts.  Let's all relax.

Betsy


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Catherine Lea said:


> I'm not arguing with him. I don't have the time or the inclination. But I hope this is at least a warning to other authors.


Screenshot your dashboard. Insist on money back.

By the way, THIS is why I only trust a few place and won't use Butterfly etc.

Good: Bookbub, ENT, RobinReads, Freebooksy.

Bad: every fricking where else (for me, YMMV etc ad-infinitum)


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Screenshot your dashboard. Insist on money back.
> 
> By the way, THIS is why I only trust a few place and won't use Butterfly etc.
> 
> ...


I think the only problem with this list is it locks out most new authors and anyone who can't afford freebooksy to start with.


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## rex kusler (Feb 12, 2010)

I just got a PM on facebook from Grace Stewart who supposedly is Asst. Marketing Manager at Books Butterfly. All it says is, "Hello Rex". I thought it was the usual ice breaker I get from what look like hookers. I don't like the idea of guaranteed results. If I request a promotion and the sales don't meet my expectation, I just don't use that site again. I would never want to argue about getting money back.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

KeraEmory said:


> I think the only problem with this list is it locks out most new authors and anyone who can't afford freebooksy to start with.


Not to derail the thread, but there are some places that are more affordable than freebooksy.
Start small, make some money and then invest that money into other promotional sites.

Readcheaply is free.
I've used them several times and...well, free is always good. I get a small bump in sales when I use them.

Fussy Librarian isn't that expensive. Not as effective as in the past, but still worth it. I ran a promo with them last month and I'm very happy with the results. Much better than the last time I used them.

ETA: Paying for promos only make sense to me if you have at least two other books for customers to buy. Obviously, the larger your catalog, the better your chances of making a nice profit.


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## josielitton (Jul 21, 2014)

I have to laugh. After posting that BookButterfly wouldn't be on my list I just got solicited by them on FB. Are they actually trying to mine this thread for leads?


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

This is very sad to read. Writers work very hard for their money. It's a big deal to decide on a promo, pay it and wait and see. So to be disrespected by a company making a living off of writers, is simply wrong.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KeraEmory said:


> I think the only problem with this list is it locks out most new authors and anyone who can't afford freebooksy to start with.


You've seen C. Gockel's list of promo sites, right? Next time you go free, hit 20 of those.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

KeraEmory said:


> I think the only problem with this list is it locks out most new authors and anyone who can't afford freebooksy to start with.


Of the four listed, Bookbub's the only one that would be out for a new author ie a book with few/no reviews. I've used ENT, RobinReads and BargainBooksy for a new release, and also OHFB, another good one. Take the point about price, but some sites (eg OHFB) also have a free submission, but of course it's not guaranteed.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

Whoa! I've read this thread with wide eyes and a dropped jaw. Geesh. Thank you for the warning everyone. I'll be scratching these folks off my list.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

My two cents' worth is that with the rapidly changing landscape and host of uncontrollable factors (see this Kboards thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,234063.0.html) it may be a good idea for sites not to guarantee an exact amount of results but to rather give an indication of possible expected results?


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Catherine

thanks very much for sharing. I think there's a misunderstanding here.

On this post you write: During that time my sales show an increase of around 20 from the base, then hit the cliff.

1) Sales happen on day of promotion and next. Both days have to be counted

2) This is http://trackmyrank.com/B0199SDJ7O/?&startDate=2016-03-24&endDate=2016-03-25rank change graph: http://trackmyrank.com/B0199SDJ7O/?&startDate=2016-03-24&endDate=2016-03-25

Note: This is in every email sent to you.

Store delays rank change by 8 to 15 hours. So sales on day of promotion and change from #1,644 to #1,357 is impact of our promotion. Terms of service clearly state sales would be on day of promotion and next day

Note: #1,644 to #1,394 increase happened midnight to 6 am PST. That's BEFORE any other site goes out. So it's due to us.

Note: Rank tracking is only from time main post goes out. Smaller blogs and sites are updated between 3 am EST and 9 am EST

In the email you sent me, this is what you wrote:

I was running promos in conjunction with yours and would be surprised if I got any sales from your promotion.

As you might imagine there's a slight difference between 20 additional sales on Day 1 of promotion, X on Day 2

Versus

Writing: would be surprised if I got any sales from your promotion.

We do get 1% of authors who try to scam us.

If the sales rank graph shows a clear change, if the book is going to a genre where we have 4% refund rate on paid slots, and if you claim ZERO sales, then that triggers scammer warning.

All you had to do was write - increase of 20 on day 1, increase of X (or x) on Day 2

and we would do prorated refund.
Everyone who asks for prorated refund gets one. But you have to write something more specific than 'would be surprised if I got any sales from promotion' and then instead of responding you just post on a forum.

*********
I'll respond to rest of the comments later.

WE're not for everyone. By the grace of God we're getting more slot requests than we can take, so if you don't like

1) That we have prorated refunds

2) That we guarantee only our performance, not that of other sites

3) That having guaranteed results does not mean an open license to get refunds for no reason whatsoever

Then we still wish you best of luck. But we do strongly recommend you don't work with us and instead work with some site with which you don't have philosophical differences about how to measure and/or with a site that doesn't offer prorated refunds if it offends you so much


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

MAIN THING: We have the authors send us figures from their KDP dashboard.

The issue here is not that I'm contradicting the author's claims. The issue is that the author gave us a vague nebulous claim of 'no sales at all' when now she herself is saying 20 sales on day 1.

And instead of responding she posted on the forum trying to drum up public support without painting an accurate picture of what she sent us (a claim of zero sales).

JUST TO REPEAT MAIN THING: Authors send us figures from their KDP dashboard.

*********** Responding to authors one by one

1) Catherine I've responded above.

2) Carol, I'm sorry if you felt something was wrong.

This is rank tracking: http://trackmyrank.com/B00LGYQB2K/

Is there some other book you are talking about? I don't see any problems with this. It goes from #11,763 to #6,219.

I think it was a 2 day slot but perhaps you can clarify what you were disappointed about

3) PhoenixS, my issue is that the author didn't send any reports of sales, but just a vague claim of 'no sales' which the author herself is contradicting here by saying 20 sales on day 1.

4) Ladystralight, I'm not sure what book you're talking about. Sorry you had a bad experience. IF you let me know which book I can take a look.

5) WasAnn, the issue is that no sales details were sent to us

6) Monique, we're contacting authors on FB. A simple invitation to our group. We had one week where a new sales team member wrongly left comments on some author's posts and now we've made sure that mistake doesn't get repeated
I've discussed with authors and they were OK with a simple message on Facebook

7) Kera, yes, some books don't perform. We can only put a book in front of readers. We did a prorated refund. We can't do anything more than that. 
Prorated refund is EXACT. If you get 30 sales instead of 40, you get 75% back.

 Lisa, we are not rude to our customers. Only to scammers

98% of authors are great
1% are scammers and we're rude to them because otherwise they don't go away. They state completely wrong figures, get a scam refund, then want to promote again (why promote if you claim terrible results), then they use their girlfriend's email id, and so forth.
1% of authors fall into a category of they measure things in a way that we can't understand. They'll run with Bookbub or ENT and then expect our promotion to increase sales over that. We can't handle that.

9) David, pricing is a discussion for another thread.

10) WIP - we have lots of readers. 200,000+ on email now. Some books don't connect.

4% or so of free book promotions
7-8% of paid book promotions

We do a prorated refund to cover those cases.

We aren't magicians. Readers only buy what they like. There's no site that gets 100% success rate.

11) Jazzy, sorry if my forthrightness was rude.

You basically wrote saying - I'm going to book, then 1 week before date, I'll cancel if I change my mind. I said we don't do that and it's not right because you said you were doing it to lots of sites.
My mistake to be so forthright.

12) JT, I'm not sure about your case. Sorry it if was rude. It's the same thing again - 98% of authros are great. The 1-2% that are bad spoil things for everyone by trying to not pay etc.

13) AuthorX

The author did not write to us saying - she got 20 sales on Day 1.
She wrote saying she got zero sales. She's misrepresenting things here. I've shared the rank change graph and I can forward her email if some author here wants to be the one to confirm she wrote in saying zero sales.

14) Annie B

Your book went up from around 2,600 to 1,800. in the paid list.

You said that a rank change like that happens to you even without promotions so we did 100% prorated refund as you asked. I can't do anything beyond that.

15) Oganalp - I'd respectfully request that you don't make a call just based on some author's inaccurate claims.

16) Thetis, The author never sent us any figures

We would have no problems if author had done what you suggest.

Her first email - zero sales

Her response to our email - post on a forum thread

****

17) Nathan, For affiliate code questions

a) Yes, you cannot selectively use codes.

b) Yes, there are secret arrangements between big sites and Amazon. There are NDAs so it can't be discussed. So if you ask the site they'll be forced to write 'no comments'.

c) Free downloads are only tracked by total downloads for all books. Not by book

1 Patrice

This is the reality

We believe in what you write: . Writers work very hard for their money. It's a big deal to decide on a promo, pay it and wait and see.

THAT is why we do guaranteed results and why we let authors send us their dashboard results and don't require screenshots unless there is a huge discrepancy

The author never sent anything. Just a vague email saying zero sales. And instead of sending a screenshot she posted on the forum

*********************

I'll write one last email. Then I wish every author best of luck.


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## Annie J (Apr 11, 2016)

Hi all,

I'm stunned to see all the people here deciding not to try BooksButterfly, because I tried them a week or so ago after following many positive threads on a different forum and I have nothing but positive to report! I was thrilled from start to end... and no, no connection to Abhi or BB, I was just a debut author like everyone else. 

Those positive views of other KDP authors (in similar numbers to the negative views on here) were the sole reason for me giving BB a shot.

I paid for the 100 sales package at $170 and while we didn't hit target, the comms with Abhi were great at all times and I didn't ask for a refund, one landed in my Paypal without any request and I thought it was over-generous. 

What did happen was that I kept Abhi in the loop just out of interest, sending the daily sales report (well, orders graph) which he was very grateful for and we had a few chats about marketing per se, and about stats--a total reversal of another author's experiences, above, where he seemed offended to have been sent a screenshot of the sales graph.

I think that if we approach someone with positivity and encouragement, it can make a big difference, and I don't see BB guaranteeing X sales, merely that they target X sales volume and guarantee if they don't GET x sales, they do a pro rata refund so that people are not out of pocket. I never even discussed how that side worked with them; I just gave it a shot.

When mine didn't quite hit the mark, I wrote with 'Abhi, I'm absolutely thrilled at the promo results as I have had a significant sales uplift over the two days and a massive increase in visibility.' I said it had got me back to the visibility I was seeking, and that was more than true. I also said we had missed target but that I was extremely happy and would use BB again with no doubts.

I thanked him for his work--note also that I'd seen where the book had been advertised, just by chance, and he had presented it really nicely with some super review excerpts I didn't even know were on my book, as I rarely read my reviews. He had trawled for a nice review collection showing a balance of views. 

What BB achieved for me was a promo that lifted a flagging ranking back into better numbers, and since then, sales have been consistently high. 

I'm shocked if Abhi has been rude to people but would love to see the original exchanges because wording on both sides of any discussion is open to interpretation. He seems to take his business very seriously, works very hard on it and for a 'one man band' essentially, his communications are very fast. But hey, if people do not try BB for themselves, that's cool...more promos for me as there are only so many slots with any promo service! : )

There is never a call for rudeness on either side of an exchange, but I wanted to show that they also have positive customers and I know quite a lot of them. 

By the way, it's also not fair on any promoter, if we run multiple promos in close proximity and I also almost did the same, too damn eager to get a sales rise; we have to hold back, because running promos simultaneously, no way can we then know what result comes from what and it's bound to end up in disagreement. 

I ensured a clear 7 days prior to the BB promo, and in that regard, when I sent Abhi the sales graphs, he could see what my non-promoted baseline was, and what my previous promos brought. 

I'd urge all new authors to give all promo providers a shot and not base views on forum posts, because all businesses have fans and non-fans...if you look to other author boards, BooksButterfly has just as many positives and I do think that if you write to Abhi in a warm manner, he's certainly shown me he's capable of replying equally positively.

I just tried to attach my sales graph for you all to see but I am mystified as to how to do it... : ). My BB promo was 3rd and 4th April--the promo clearly lifted my sales by 30+ units a day and sales have since stabilised (give or take yesterday when I was experimenting with pricing!).


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> You've seen C. Gockel's list of promo sites, right? Next time you go free, hit 20 of those.


I appreciate it, but I guess I should have been more specific--I was just making a counterpoint to the original post, which basically made it sound like there was no point in using ANY site but those four. I was just pointing out that not everyone can afford or be accepted by them. I wasn't complaining on my own behalf. (But I appreciate the link nonetheless, and the feedback from others who responded to that post.)

A-J, your new member status is going to cause some to question your motives.


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## Annie J (Apr 11, 2016)

Ha! While I was posting my comment, I see Abhi has posted. Good for you, Abhi. As you see, I am a firm fan and I think if people don't try your services then it's a shame, because it had super results for me and I found you very gentlemanly!


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

KeraEmory said:


> I appreciate it, but I guess I should have been more specific--I was just making a counterpoint to the original post, which basically made it sound like there was no point in using ANY site but those four. I was just pointing out that not everyone can afford or be accepted by them. I wasn't complaining on my own behalf. (But I appreciate the link nonetheless, and the feedback from others who responded to that post.)
> 
> A-J, your new member status is going to cause some to question your motives.


To be fair, I had no issue with them.


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## Annie J (Apr 11, 2016)

Hi all, 

I am a new member because everyone has to join at some stage!! If you check back, I joined yesterday because I wanted to take part in the thread about approaching trad publishers when self-published. Then I was surprised to see this negative thread and of course would present the opposing view because I had a very good experience. It's truly hard to sit by and see some company and person get bashed by name when I have had a super experience with them.

Forums are just like book review sites; they will attract polarity, and that's normal. I don't want people to think Books Butterfly is dodgy when I tried it based on other authors' recommendations (on KDP community) and when I had nothing but a great experience.

I have email contactability and am more than happy to send someone the sales graph that supports what I say about the BooksButterfly promo working for me, and heck, I will even screenshot the email exchange once I am back at my laptop. I couldn't manage to attach an image here, not sure how it works.

It's very sad if people will be suspicious or 'question motives'...there will be positive experiences of all companies and those who are new have just as much inclination to share their views as the established forum users. It's because my experience is so wildly different to those above, that I wanted to post.


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## Annie J (Apr 11, 2016)

Lovely book covers, JalexM.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

******************************************

Fundamentally, the book stores are hitting promo sites and indie authors hard.

There are 8 to 15 hour delays in when sales rank moves up. This means you don't go as high up the charts and don't get as many sales and downloads.

Now there are two options

Option 1: Turn on each other and start believing that EACH AND EVERY promo site is suddenly underperforming. Even though most big sites are growing very fast.

Option 2: See reality as it is

There is NO WAY $5 to $15 books can compete with free and cheap books.

So the ENTIRE Market of $28 billion a year in books in the US is up for grabs.

***************************************************************************

WE started focusing on emails in Feb 2013 (Feb 23rd) when the stores tried to nuke free books.

BECAUSE THE WHOLE GAME IS ABOUT VISIBILITY

Free is the #1 way indie authors can take over the market
$1 books and Box sets are the #2 way

Since Feb 2013 our email lists have grown from 3,000 or so to 200,000+ email subscribers. Net add rate keeps increasing.

Sites and blogs keep increasing.

EVERY DAY we help indie authors AND we do prorated refund for the 5% of authors whose books don't hit the target (provided they actually email us what sales they got and not a 'i think it was zero sales')

Prorated Refund - because we want to feel the pain if our authors feel the pain. We only take books we believe in. So it's our failure to not get results.

But, no, we are the BAD GUYS.

We were supposed to say - thank you for not emailing us any figures, and asking for 100% refund. When the author here on this thread has said 20 sales on Day 1.

********************************************************************************

*****************************
Here is the reality of the situation

98% of Authors are great. We want to help them and work with them and things are great.

1% of Authors scam us. We just don't work with them again

1% of Authors don't like our method of - look at your KDP dashboard and tell us if prorated refund is needed. Or have philosophical differences about us offering a prorated refund.
They want to count using their own methods. The terms of service are SUPER CLEAR about what authors have to do in case they need refund - look at KDP dashboard, email us figures, we do prorated refund.

**************************************

We are always polite to the 98% of Authors who are good

1% of authors who are counting wrong we can't do anything about. They want a refund and then they also want to complain about us and say our site is bad. Such is life.

It's very reminiscent of when we had 40,000 email subscribers and some authors really attacked us with things like

- must be a scam because they offer guaranteed results
- their site is ugly so they must be unprofessional
- results can't be measured accurately (authors check their KDP dashboard themselves - is that too much to ask?)

etc.

Now we have 200,000+ email subscribers and by the Grace of God we're growing fast and slot requests are growing fast and everything is great.
We're happy to work with the 98% of Authors that are great and get them results

If you fall into the 4% of free slots or the 8% of paid slots that don't hit the target, we do a prorated refund.

The scammers we avoid. There's one author on this thread complaining about us. Well, his analysis was that we generated -1,700 free book downloads for us (his claim was that if he didn't run with us he would have gotten 1,700 more free book downloads). After that he keeps emailing us for slots. He's asked for 4 slots even after claiming we generated -1,700 free bookdownloads. Guess he really needs those -1,700 free book downloads we were generating for him.

This is the KEY thing authors have to see - We can't be accommodating of the scammers and the ones who want us to guarantee results for other sites.

Then, instead of working with the 98% of good authors we have to work with the 2% of scammers and wrong-counting authors.

Would you want to find the 2% of readers who cursed you in their book reviews and then be forced to write and sell books ONLY TO THEM? That's what they want

They want us to give them free slots and give them priority and ignore the 98% of good authors who don't scam us and don't curse us after we promote their books

********************************

1% of authors being scammers and 1% having wrong counting methods seems not much. The problem is that they want more and more. If we start focusing on these non-customers then the cost of servicing them has to be borne by the honest authors.

We used to have a 100% refund policy. One gentleman in Great Britain figured out a way to scam that. After 2/3 instances of that scam, we had to remove it.

Now who suffers?

The 5% of authors who were getting 100% refunds. Now they only get prorated refunds.

We, because now instead of 100% refund we have to say prorated refund.

***********************

Some authors don't get results.
Some don't agree with how we do things

That's fine. No site has a 100% hit rate.

Number of slot requests keeps going up. 90%+ of authors keep getting good results (DESPITE the stores hitting all promo sites and doing 8 to 15 hr delays in when the rank changes, and 5 to 15 hr delays in updating KDP dashboard).

*********************************************

From Jan 2008 to 2nd half of 2014 we did curation without charging (that's so evil). Affiliate income was never a big part of it. It was for the love of books.

Now we charge for slots (because it's just too big of an opportunity now - as the stores kill all promo sites and try to remove $0 and $1 books and trap indie authors into 'No One Can See Your Book' land, the ones that survive and solve this problem for indie authors will take over all of books.

We're a top 5 site in size and results. And we're growing super fast.

Some authors don't do well. We do prorated refund

95%+ of free book promotions do well
92%+ of paid book promotions do well

Rest we do prorated refund.

*********************************************

We can't do anything more than that. We just ask for common courtesy

IF your first step is to see 20 sales on Day 1 and then write us saying 'zero sales' and give me my money back
And your second step is to start a forum thread

Then I don't see how you're our customer. All you had to do was send figures for sales for days when you don't promote, figures for sales when you promoted with us

AS this graph shows, it's not that clearcut that we generated only 20 sales (as you claim on this thread) or zero sales ( as you claimed in your email to us) - http://trackmyrank.com/B0199SDJ7O/?&startDate=2016-03-24&endDate=2016-04-11

You want to count the day right before + assume that is baseline? Even though you were promoting with other sites
Then here you're saying 20 sales
In email to us you're saying zero sales.



We get a lot more slot requests than we can run. So we'd rather work with the 98% of authors that are great.

Are we going to remove the prorated refund policy that covers 98% of good authors because 1% of authors try to use it to scam us, and because 1% of authors misunderstand it as 'refund if ANY site underperforms).

NO

our responsibility is to the 98% of authors who are good honest people.

You want to paint us as the villains - yes, please go ahead.

In a world of 5 to 10 sites that work, you want to believe one author who emails us saying 'zero sales' and out here posts 20 sales, then please go ahead. WE'll focus on the 98% of good authors that are a pleasure to work with

P.S. thanks for starting this thread. We've had some of our best days of the year thanks to authors visiting us after finding out about us. Please do keep writing how much of a scam we are. It's really good for business because 98% of authors are smart and see for themselves and don't blindly believe someone's inaccurate portrait.

P.P.S. yes, there are some authors to whom our replies are rude. Sorry for that. We are just very forthright - we can't do anything if our readers didn't connect with their book. They just didn't connect. We can't mind-control them, and we don't want to.
Refund rate is 5% (combined) so if your book didn't connect it's not our fault. We do prorated refund. We can't do more than that. If you want to hold us to blame DESPITE us doing a refund, because it's somehow an affront to you that our readers didn't want your book, there's zilch we can do. Every site has a different audience profile - every book does different with different audiences.

It's important to see reality as it is. We try our best and then we do prorated refund if it doesn't work. If you attack us you're winning a Pyrrhic victory.

The REAL PRIZE for indie authors and promo sites is

$28 billion a year in books every year. $11 billion in ebooks every year.

There are 5 to 10 sites that work. One of them (or a few of them) are the weapon that can win you 80% of this market.

Established players can't touch you -

you can release 4 books in the time that they finalize which author is going to write their 50 Shades knock off starring a Bear Shifter and a Sparkling Vampire

They can't release $0 books for marketing

They can't survive on $1 to $3 books

They have to protect their $5 to $15 paperbacks

So the only restriction is GATEKEEPERS. these are all virtual. They are stifling your ability to compete but instead of SEEING REALITY AS IT IT IS you've conjured up this imaginary reality that suddenly each and every promo site is BIGGER in SIZE but is getting worse results because all the promo sites are suddenly terrible. That each and every promo site got up one morning and said - No, we don't want to make our customers happy. So we're going to ask the store to delay rank changes and make all results seem bad.

The Gatekeepers are NOT going to let your $0 and $1 and $2 and $3 books take over a store that is making money mostly from $5 to $15 books.
They did not invest billions in ereaders and reading tablets to end up being dumb terminals/vending machines dispensing books at $0 and books between $1 and $5. and making 10-20-30 cents a book sale.

You either

Build your own store

Or

Wait and let one of the big promo sites become bigger and build their store

Then it's GAME OVER. Then YOU WIN.

However, 1-2% of indie authors seem more focused on winning the pyrrhic victory of getting temporary, short lived, meaningless satisfaction by attacking all the promo sites. I'm going to HURT this site and that site and then when no sites are left then the magic fairy of book promotions is going to sprinkle fairy dust on my book and it'll start getting sales.

Even the good 98% of authors aren't connecting the dots.

It's $11 billion a year in ebooks AND $26 billion a year overall in books.

It's all there for the taking.
The stores are not going to lay out a red carpet and give it to you. You have to take it yourself.

If you prefer the frustration of 'every site has stopped working all at the same time' and 'pages read' that's your choice. Not making a decision is also a decision.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Mystery Maven said:


> I was treated like a child and an amateur by the most childish and amateurish service provider I've ever dealt with.
> I kept it to myself until now because I was concerned about reprisals. Hopefully now my complaint will blend in with the many mistreated customers.


^This.

I'm still concerned, given the "subtle" hints Abhi dropped in his email. Hence no signature in my post. After reading Abhi's tirade, I did some research on Butterfly (should have done this before booking!), and here's what I found:

1. Butterfly's Reader Websites: 
http://ireaderreview.com/ (Alexa rank in the US:794,303), http://freebookdeals.com/ (Alexa rank in the US: 457,415), http://kebooks.com/ (Alexa rank in the US: 238,047). There are a few others, most of them with no or very few visitors in the US (their global rank isn't impressive either). For comparison: BookBub's Alexa rank in the US is 2,091. Freebooksy's is 24,206, ENT's - 29,068. Even my little author website has a better Alexa rank than Butterfly's sites.

2. Butterfly's Facebook page: 
3806 likes. Last post: May 2015 (2 likes)

3. Mailing lists:
Their real size is impossible to verify, but if the rank and appearance of Butterfly's websites is anything to go by, I have my doubts.

But maybe I'm just stupid.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Haters gonna hate 

1) If we post all our biggest sites then everyone can copy our strategy. So I'm going to post some of the medium sized sites. However, feel free to Believe ANYTHING YOU LIKE.

2) I also will extend an OPEN invitation to you nominating 10 of your most trusted authors. Then I pick out 1 author I trust. And give her/him login for our email list account and they can verify email list size and can post it on this thread. Only requirement is that they only share Total Size and Add Rate. And not share anything about our new email lists or any other information which are trade secrets

Similar Web

1) iRR - 17.6K a month. https://www.similarweb.com/website/ireaderreview.com#overview

2) Erotica Blog - 15.6K a month. https://www.similarweb.com/website/eroticafreebooks.com#overview

Note: We have 100+ sites and lists

Twitter

1) https://twitter.com/kebooks

2) https://twitter.com/ireaderreview

Note: These are not our only twitter accounts.

********************

WE have 100+ blogs and sites and 80+ email lists.

So if you want to cherrypick and claim that because you found 2/3 sites out of those that are small, then please do so.

And why on Earth would we want to focus on Facebook

Updates go to 8% of your fans.
If you pay you can go to 30% of your fans

So pay once to grow fans
Then pay again EVERY TIME you want to reach people
That doesn't make sense to us.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Actually, let's set up a live stream. Let me know a date and time (Afternoon or Evening EST) and I'll show anyone who's interested

log in into our email account
invoices (paid invoices) showing what number of subscribers we are paying for

I'll also show you email from the author who started this thread where she's saying zero sales, in direct violation of her claim here of 20 sales.


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## skyle (Oct 13, 2014)

I thought long and hard about whether to pile on this one, because I have not actually used the service.

But I did enquire about the guarantee and selection criteria and got a very defensive reply, hence why I didnt use them. This was about six months ago.

If you are rude to potential customers then it doesn't say good things about your service. I don't want to be an instigator in ruining a fairly new business, but as it seems that we have all had similar dealings with the same person it begs the question as to why they are still employed there. I can only assume he/she is the owner of the business, which makes it even worse. You simply can not run a business that way.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

This thread was created for a member to post her experience with a vendor.  The vendor is allowed to respond.  Everyone is allowed to consider the way the review is expressed and the way the vendor responds.  For the time being, I'm going to leave this thread open.  Keep it civil.

Note that while members ARE allowed to post anonymously here, you are not allowed to have one account where you post openly and another where you post anonymously for those times when it's not convenient.  Make a choice.  We'll be glad to lock the "open" account so you can post anonymously at all times if that's your wish.  While we con't check all accounts, we do check brand new accounts in threads like these to see if there's a connection with an existing account.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

Wow, I didn't know BooksButterfly and Amazon were this closely connected.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

ireaderreview said:


> 11) Jazzy, sorry if my forthrightness was rude.
> 
> You basically wrote saying - I'm going to book, then 1 week before date, I'll cancel if I change my mind. I said we don't do that and it's not right because you said you were doing it to lots of sites.
> My mistake to be so forthright.


Abhi, I understand that English may not be your first language and it's possible that the language barrier could be making it hard to see the difference between being "forthright" and being "rude".

What I said to you was that I'm booking up promos for my KCD, but that there was a chance I might not run it but that I wouldn't know until a week beforehand. And yes, OF COURSE I said this to multiple people because I was booking up promos for all 7 KCD days. And you were the only one who bit my head off about it, and then when I called you out for being rude you told me never to contact you again. Btw, I did run my KCD, and it was very successful, and I shared my results in a separate thread. It's too bad that I couldn't list you as one of my successful promotions, because I never got the chance to try you out and I never will.

What you SHOULD have said, if you wanted to be forthright, was something like this:

"Hi Jasmine, I'm sorry but we cannot offer you a refund under these circumstances. It isn't really fair to the other authors who use us to let you book our service knowing that you might cancel. Thank you for understanding."

Instead, you said this:

"We can't do that. It's not fair to us and it's not fair to other authors.

I mean it's one thing to cancel if Amazon messes up pricing or something. We can't get you a slot on hold in case you decide you want it 1/2 days before.

Normal wait times for Fantasy are 2/3 weeks.

If you're 100% sure you want to run the slot then I can schedule it for you. Else I'd suggest contacting us AFTER you know whether or not you're sure.

Look at it from a general perspective of EVERYONE in the ecosystem. Not just you

You're asking us to say no to every other author who asks for March 5th or March 6th
AND you're saying that on March 3rd or 4th you might say - I'm cancelling the slot.

So then we turned away those other authors for nothing
ANd we have to scramble and try to fill that empty slot.

*****************************************

If every author started doing what you're doing, then all the promo site people would go mad.

You're basically saying - You just spent 15 minutes evaluating my book, finding dates for it, scheduling it, and it was all a waste. Now I want to know if I can keep a spot on hold for you for 3 weeks and turn away other authors (loss of good will) and then allow cancelling at the very last minute, while not knowing if anyone else will take date last minute, and not factoring in overhead of cancelling the slot last minute.

How is that fair? Why would you think it's OK to set up a bunch of promotions and then cancel last minute?"

Do you see how one is practical and forthright, and the other one is inflammatory and unprofessional? You took what could have been a three sentence email and turned it into a huge rant that basically made me feel like a criminal for asking a question that every other promo site I contacted was happy to address in a professional and friendly manner.

Perhaps you'll take this as a lesson and, in responding to customer inquiries and complaints, consider how to respond in the least inflammatory manner as possible.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Anarchist, try.  

(Anarchist will know what I am referring to.  If not, PM me, A!)


Folks this is a serious thread and a serious discussion.  Let's keep it that way.

Betsy


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

1) JUST TO MAKE THINGS VERY CLEAR to all the authors here who are BLINDLY believing the author who started this thread

A) her email to us

Page Ask From: http://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/bookmarketing/contact/ 
Page From From: http://www.booksbutterfly.com/bookpromotion/results/ 
Client IP: X
Client Email: [email protected] 
Book: Child of the State 
Subject: Q from Author: Child of the State, Paid SILVER 50, 2016-04-09 13:08:54 
Question: I signed up on the 3rd of March this year for a Silver50 slot for my book Child of the State B0199SDJ7O to be run on April 24th, and was extremely disappointed by the sales. I was running promos in conjunction with yours and would be surprised if I got any sales from your promotion. The promotion cost me $90, not the $50 shown in your selection above, and I would like a refund for the guaranteed sales that did not eventuate. Kind regards, Catherine Lea

Please notice

a) the author writing: I was running promos in conjunction with yours and would be surprised if I got any sales from your promotion.

b) the author starting this thread saying - 20 sales.

So she's, perhaps inadvertently, misrepresenting what we wrote + she's ignoring the fact that (in our response below) we asked her for KDP stats.

I can foirward this thread to a moderator if you like.

*********************

B) Our response (she's cherry picking parts of it to make it seem wrong. There's no ill intent.)
And remember - this is in response to her writing - I was running promos in conjunction with yours and would be surprised if I got any sales from your promotion. 
*************

1) Nope, you're mistaken.

2) This is rank tracking: http://trackmyrank.com/B0199SDJ7O/

I see it going from #1,523 up a bit, then falling a lot as previous promotion effect, went away, then our promotion kicks in and takes your book to #1,347 by early next morning. Which is right around what 50 sales over 2 days would do.

2b) contact Us page has wrong old prices.

3) This is post.

Your book is #1 in Mystery/Thriller List, it's in Women's Fiction part, and it's #1 in Deals List.

Here: http://freebookdeals.com/2016/03/24/0-1-1-series-special-free-ny-times-usa-today-bestselling-authors-free-zen-guide-free-golden-heart-award-winner-112-free-kindle-books-11-kindle-book-deals/

4) We only guarantee total sales. If total sales on 24th and 25th (with baseline of days when you are not promoting the books subtracted) is less than 50 we'll gladly do refunds. However, rank change above indicates well over 50 sales. Baseline is days when you were not doing promotions, not days when promotion was being done.

5) Refund rate on thrillers is less than 5%. That's for books run ONLY IN THRILLERS. Your book was also run in Women's Fiction

6) Here's what actually happened

We got you the sales
You are either using the wrong measuring method (assuming that sales from previous promotion will stay forever and we should generate 50 sales over it). Or you're attributing it wrongly to other promotions which didn't work.
We're the only site that guarantees results and offers a prorated refund (there's one more but very few people know about it so pretty sure you didn't use it.
So the natural inclination is to hope that it was our site that didn't perform and the other sites, which don't guarantee results, performed.

****************

7) I'd welcome to run only with us in future and see results. We're one of only two sites for book promotion that guarantee results. IT's because our results are very good.

 If KDP results don't show 50 sales above non-promotion day baseline I'll gladly do prorated refund.
However, as you may very well imagine, and as terms of service clearly indicate.

WE do not guarantee other sites' performance. Only the total. 
*************

PLEASE take note of

a) Link to Rank Tracking

b) ending point of email i.e.

 If KDP results don't show 50 sales above non-promotion day baseline I'll gladly do prorated refund.
However, as you may very well imagine, and as terms of service clearly indicate.

WE do not guarantee other sites' performance. Only the total.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, this thread is under review.

We'll check back after we've discussed.  PM me if you have any questions.

Betsy


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