# Does Select increase your income short-term but cheapen your brand long-term?



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

I've been thinking for a while about a post that Russell Blake wrote on his blog last month. In particular:



> I believe we can expect royalties from subscriptions to shrink (safe bet based on the trend), and pricing power to disappear in many of the most popular genres. That means that those whose strategy is to depend on the subscription model will earn less money as the months go by.
> 
> And before I hear the usual arguments about how Amazon's program increases visibility, and thus, discoverability, by treating borrows as sales for the purposes of rank, consider this simple test of that theory: If higher rank = greater visibility with folks who _buy_, vs. _borrow_, and those buyers use rank (whether on POP lists or not) as their new author discovery mechanism, you'd expect your sales (not overall revenue, unit SALES) to increase once you go into Select. That's testable. If sales remain flat, or decline, then you have discovered that the ones using rank as a discovery mechanism are borrowers, not buyers. That runs counter to the established wisdom that higher rank equates to greater sales due to enhanced discoverability, but like most theories, when tested, it might just fall apart (it certainly does in my case - sales go down, borrows increase, and revenue increases due to increased borrows, but the type of reader I'm getting isn't one that's willing to pay for my work, as evidenced by the decreased sales).
> 
> http://russellblake.com/the-end-of-an-era/


I have incredible respect for Russell, not least because he points out things I've never thought of before.

So, assuming he's right (and he often is): is Select ultimately not good for your brand in the long run? Lower unit sales, more cheapskate types of readers, and promulgating an overall impression that your stuff is (and thus should ever be) "free?"

Nota bene, no advocacy here... Don't have a dog in this fight. Just wondering if anyone has opinions, with evidence.


----------



## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think the more important question is: What makes you more money?
KU isn't going anywhere. Not in the foreseeable future at least. So, can you make more money in Select or out of Select? If you're trying to build a business pretending KU is going to evaporate overnight, then I think you're deceiving yourself. You can go wide and make it work. That much is obvious. It all depends on what works best for your brand, because it's not "one size fits all."


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Genres are different, as well. Romance readers love Select and love cheaper stuff, because they're so voracious. And I don't believe romance readers see you as "cheaper" because you're in Select, have some cheap books, etc. In fact, many of them won't try a new author unless they can do so cheaply or free. 

For me, as Amanda says, it's about money. Going back into Select this summer meant I could spend 3 months living in New Zealand and write another rugby book, which is still my bestselling series. It also makes sense for me because I write for an Amazon imprint, and thus those efforts reinforce one another. Those reasons won't be somebody else's, and some people try Select and find that it doesn't work well for them. Their books don't get borrowed more, or whatever. Or they're really good promoters and find good success going wide. Whatever. People are different.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Russell brings up a great point in the comments:



> We're the beneficiaries of some of their tactical decisions, as well as their competitive jockeying (recall that Amazon only did 70% as a response to Apple paying that out -- they started at 35%, which was obviously what they felt was the right number. I think they simply went, "trad pub pays 25% royalty, 35% looks great compared to that, indies will suck it up" and then had to pivot when Apple introduced 70%)...


Suppose Amazon drives off its main competitors, and returns to a 35% rate. How might that affect your business? I'm sure a lot of folks have quit their jobs to write books based on the assumption they'll receive that 70% rate.

That rate could change.

I know a lot of folks who once based their entire business on driving organic traffic from Google. They were wiped out when Google made major tweaks to its algo.

I expect the same thing to happen with writers if (when) Amazon pulls the rug.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

The issue I have is the nonsensical statement that " the type of reader I'm getting isn't one that's willing to pay for my work, as evidenced by the decreased sales". 

The reader has paid. Why, after they pay for a subscription, would they buy the book to read it? I hear this kind of gibberish a lot. Circular reasoning. Ask the trad publishers or the record companies (remember records?) about how ebooks are going to crash or people won't pay for music on line. Zon has figured a way to make subscription reads work. It works for readers, it works for Zon. It works for me. It ain't going away.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

I'll repeat what I've said a few times before.

KU is splitting the readers into 2 groups.

People who buy ebooks are the re-readers. They go back and read the same books many times.

People who read once and never go back, are using KU, instead of buying.

So your sales are to people who really follow you as an author, or follow your series and love to re-read. Used to be everyone had to buy you book to read it. Now, only those who want to re-read the same book many times will actually buy it.

There is a crossover though. Some people use KU to see what they really like, and buy once they decide a book is a keeper.


----------



## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I don't think being in Ku cheapens your brand at all. In fact for a new author looking to grow readership on the biggest platform in the world, I would say it gives you a greater chance to find success. It's not for everyone and going wide can bring you to more readers.

With most people that have gone wide saying Amazon makes up 70% or more of their income I just wonder what they could make in KU.

I guess really it comes down to what works for you. IF KU is working for you, helping more people read your books and making you money then it's doing it's job, if going wide works for you and you get more sales then awesome.

As a reader I buy books and am not in KU as an author I like to give people the choice.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> The issue I have is the nonsensical statement that " the type of reader I'm getting isn't one that's willing to pay for my work, as evidenced by the decreased sales".
> 
> The reader has paid. Why, after they pay for a subscription, would they buy the book to read it? I hear this kind of gibberish a lot. Circular reasoning. Ask the trad publishers or the record companies (remember records?) about how ebooks are going to crash or people won't pay for music on line. Zon has figured a way to make subscription reads work. It works for readers, it works for Zon. It works for me. It ain't going away.


I think Russell's point may have been that that reader has not paid him, Russell. It's more of a question of what's in the author's long-term best interest. With the music analogy, I'm not sure services such as Spotify "work" for recording artists, unless the artists are huge like Adele or (maybe?) Taylor Swift. Musicians overall don't seem to love subscription services. But I agree that subscription ain't going away.


----------



## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

> Zon has figured a way to make subscription reads work. It works for readers, it works for Zon. It works for me. It ain't going away.


Agree. In fact, if anything is going to go away it'll be buying books (eBooks included). The world has been moving to a subscription based model for everything since the invention of the telephone. So in the end, I suspect books will be the same. There will be libraries that we borrow from, and Amazon will probably be one of them...if not the largest. As a result, I think being in KU will strengthen your brand in the long run. Everyone who wants their books available to the broad public will be there. It may take several years, but we're moving that direction quickly.

As a reader, I tend to borrow most everything. But, for favorite authors I'll buy the hardback for the novelty of having an old fashioned book to show the grandkids.


----------



## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I have been in KDPS twice - once when KU first came out, and until about a month ago when I went wide once again. My experience the first time can't really count because I had been adult dungeoned without knowing it, although it did prove similar the second time when my income spiked for a month, then downward declined the rest of the 90 days.

My sales diminished a LOT when readers could borrow my books instead of buying them. I usually have first in serial free, but not when in KU. Still got some buys here and there, but nothing compared to what I get now that I'm no longer in it. I'm on track to have my best month this year, back to having some freebies, right back to selling on the other sites, and decided KU isn't for me. But I think for some people, it works well, and we should all do what works the best for us (that's what I've learned this year!).


----------



## James R Wells (May 21, 2015)

John Twipnook said:


> I think Russell's point may have been that that reader has not paid him, Russell. It's more of a question of what's in the author's long-term best interest. With the music analogy, I'm not sure services such as Spotify "work" for recording artists, unless the artists are huge like Adele or (maybe?) Taylor Swift. Musicians overall don't seem to love subscription services. But I agree that subscription ain't going away.


Taylor Swift expressly refuses to go on Spotify because it's such a bad deal for the artist. Others likely think they need the exposure; she doesn't need no stinking exposure.



> I'm not willing to contribute my life's work to an experiment that I don't feel fairly compensates the writers, producers, artists and creators of this music. And I just don't agree with perpetuating the perception that music has no value and should be free.
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/taylor-swift-shuns-grand-experiment-of-streaming-music-20141106


Not quite "Free" of course since Spotify is a subscription service. [It has a "free" option that is designed to be so insanely annoying with Ads (for Spotify!) that you are driven to pay the $5 or $10 per month to get rid of the ads.] But still stunningly cheap compared to the cost of buying all the albums, on any reasonable usage pattern.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Not Lu said:


> Agree. In fact, if anything is going to go away it'll be buying books (eBooks included). The world has been moving to a subscription based model for everything since the invention of the telephone.


I dont agree. For people who only ever read a book once, maybe so, but the subscription suits them best.

But for those of us who repeatedly re-read the same books, we will want to buy a copy which stays with us.

This is especially true for series, where we want them sitting there, making the transition from book to book easy.

Its also the difference between your real fans, and people reviewing for their own reasons. My fans buy before Amazon even tells me the book is live.

As long as the subscription service limits you to 10 books on your device at a time, people are going to want to buy them to have all the time. If the subscription service ever changes to allow people to store books forever, then it will remove the need to buy. At the moment, its polarising the readers, and as long as you stick with Amazon, you shouldn't be missing out.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

As I have more titles available, what I may do is once one title's sales wanes enough to justify doing so, taking that title out of KU and putting it on other platforms. If I build up enough of an audience there, then I'll come out of KU. But for the time being, I look at it this way:
If am making money in KU but not on other platforms, should I give up that income so MAYBE one day I'll start making money on other platforms? All on the CHANCE that one day I might not make as much in KU? OR should I stick with my sure income now, in the event that taking it out now doesn't mean I'll make income wide ever.

In other words, definite income now and possible less income later, or less income now and possible income later? To me, a clear choice.


----------



## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

There's no right or wrong answer to this. Each of us must experiment to see what works best for us, our readers and our back catalogue. Success depends on many factors. Our perception of success differs, financial and personal success can be two very different things. We must each tread our own course. KU doesn't cheapen a brand any more than Google Play, Scribd, a library, or Apple does, it's just another way to reach a different demographic.


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> The issue I have is the nonsensical statement that " the type of reader I'm getting isn't one that's willing to pay for my work, as evidenced by the decreased sales".
> 
> The reader has paid. Why, after they pay for a subscription, would they buy the book to read it? I hear this kind of gibberish a lot. Circular reasoning. Ask the trad publishers or the record companies (remember records?) about how ebooks are going to crash or people won't pay for music on line. Zon has figured a way to make subscription reads work. It works for readers, it works for Zon. It works for me. It ain't going away.


I have an elderly lady who reads all my books and who told me in an email recently that she reads at least one book per day. She borrows my books through KU because obviously at one book per day, she would be paying a lot more to buy them. But, even though she has read my entire six book series through KU, she has still gone out and bought the boxed set! OK, you don't get many of those sorts of fans, but they are well worth cultivating when they do come along.


----------



## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

I don't think 'cheapen your brand' is necessarily the right attitude. As others have pointed out, "brand" differs for each writer. 

I know a very successful KU author who has rabid fans. She makes a lot of money, her fans love her, and I doubt she considers herself "cheapened."

This attitude that you don't have "true fans" because they are borrowing instead of buying doesn't make sense to me. If I had a KU subscription, I would borrow instead of buy if I had the option. I would only buy if I wanted to re-read and the book had been removed from KU. If I liked the author and wanted to read their backlist, I would only buy instead of borrow if some of the books weren't available in KU. 

What does concern me is Amazon getting more and more market share - to which we are all contributing when we go exclusive. The more market share they have, the less incentive they have to offer good terms to authors. This would be true of any company, but Amazon has a history of being especially ruthless in squeezing it's vendors. 

Also, this "easily testable" idea of comparing results in KU is failing for me so far. I made more money during the release month of my last release outside KU than I did on my current release in KU even though my release-week ranks were better. Also, the rank was far less "sticky." This seems to indicate that I should move wide. However, they are two different books. I've heard time and again people say that their most popular books are their most popular books no matter how they price them. I can pull the book from KU and go wide, so I have results for the same book in/out of KU - but I won't be able to duplicate that New Release bump - so still no clear results. If I'm missing the "easily testable" method - someone clue me in.  I suppose results might be clearer if I moved from wide to select - but I hate the idea of pulling a book from a market.

Anyway - my point is there are so many variables not only for each author, but for each book. These are decisions we all have to make based on what works for us and where we can find our readers. Bandying around terms like "cheapen" seems a little derogatory to authors who choose to utilize KU, though.


----------



## AngelaQuarles (Jun 22, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> The issue I have is the nonsensical statement that " the type of reader I'm getting isn't one that's willing to pay for my work, as evidenced by the decreased sales".
> 
> The reader has paid. Why, after they pay for a subscription, would they buy the book to read it? I hear this kind of gibberish a lot. Circular reasoning. Ask the trad publishers or the record companies (remember records?) about how ebooks are going to crash or people won't pay for music on line. Zon has figured a way to make subscription reads work. It works for readers, it works for Zon. It works for me. It ain't going away.


I think what he means is that he would only be cultivating the type of reader who only pays through subscription. There are a ton of readers who don't do the subscription thing and will pay full price for a book and he's noticing that _those_ readers aren't buying his book because his sales go down even though his algos push him up. I think he means that a writer is giving up on a chance to cultivate the latter if they're only focusing on the former.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

AngelaQuarles said:


> I think what he means is that he would only be cultivating the type of reader who only pays through subscription. There are a ton of readers who don't do the subscription thing and will pay full price for a book and he's noticing that _those_ readers aren't buying his book because his sales go down even though his algos push him up. I think he means that a writer is giving up on a chance to cultivate the latter if they're only focusing on the former.


I understand what he's saying, and it's nonsense. When I go looking for a book to read (non-KU reader), I don't specifically reject a book because it's in KU. I don't pay any attention to KU at all because IT DOESN'T AFFECT ME. If his sales on Amazon go down more than what he earns from reads, then he should pull his books out. But KU isn't diminishing his sales for non-KU readers.

Until this fall, I didn't own a Kindle. Until this past summer, none of my titles was in Select. It irritated me when a book was exclusive to Zon and I couldn't buy it for my Nook, but I put the Kindle app on my PC and phone.

All of the KU drama that authors are wrapped up in is just as silly as the TradPub vs. Indie junk that authors bloviate about. As far as readers are concerned, they don't care. I read almost everything on an ereader. My partner buys paper, preferably hardbacks.

Either you're making money on your writing or you're not. Authors need to start paying attention to what readers are really saying and not what we think they "should be saying".


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I think maybe sometimes it would help if writers take off their writing hat and try to pretend to see things from the readers side. 

I am a voracious reader, I have a KU subscription, I buy books, I use the library. Once in a while I still borrow a book from an online friend. In the past we'd have past around a paper book among 5-10 of us. 

I hear this a lot that readers that have KU are "cheapskates" or devalue books as they get them for free. KU isn't free. It costs more per month than Hulu, more than regular Netflix, more than Amazon Prime. Its not free. And the author does get paid by me reading their book. If I give them the honor to pick their book to read and I keep turning the pages, they get paid. Is not free. I pay, I read, you get paid.

I also do not think of any author as "cheaper" or their brand being cheapened for being in KU. That doesn't even make sense from a readers point of view. I been going to the library for years, yes I know taxes yada yada, but when I check out a book, in that moment I don't pay anything. It doesn't cheapen anything for me. If I pick up a free book, it doesn't cheapen it either. I picked up the first the Fever series by Karen Marie Moning for free. I bought the rest of them. I didn't think and never will think of that authors brand being cheapened. 

I read Connie Brockway, Laura Kinsale, Anne Stuart, Brenda Novak all in KU. The list goes on. These are big names in romance for those that don't know. Classic names. You think I think any less of any of them for having books in KU? Why in the world would I do that. Their brand is the same it always has. Anne Stuart is Anne Stuart. If I read her from the library, read one of the books I purchased in my account or if I pick one out through KU. 

We readers love the books, we love the authors, we don't really care how we got the books, we just want to have a good time reading them. 

Are there some readers that only read book in KU? I guess there are. Although no reader I have ever met or conversed with. First of not all the books are in KU and second we readers have always had a variety of ways to get our books. 

If I want to re-read a book over and over, I buy it. But I don't re-read a lot in any case and if I want to do that, I can always buy the book later, or borrow it again I guess. If one mostly re-reads, I don't think they'd be subscribing to KU anyway. 

I love a book just as much if I borrow it than another reader that buys the same book. You don't magically love a book more just because it sits in your archive permanently under purchases as suppose to returned with KU. 

Its also not an either or and not just 2 groups of readers between KU, other borrowing and buying. The majority of readers do all of it. 

So ask the readers if we think an authors brand is cheapened because they borrowed it. I don't think so. 

You should see the groups and forums we subscription readers have. We are elated when we find a book, author in a service we are part of and want to read. Its joy, not thinking, oh, I really feel less of this author now and I think they are cheapening their brand.  . Its gimme gimme.


----------



## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

> I dont agree. For people who only ever read a book once, maybe so, but the subscription suits them best.
> 
> But for those of us who repeatedly re-read the same books, we will want to buy a copy which stays with us.


If all the books you want to "repeatedly re-read" are in the library, would you buy them too? I'm guessing you wouldn't unless it was for the collector in you.

Here's my prediction of the book world 20 years from now (in developed countries). A few eBook libraries will dominate the market. Then there will be a niche market of fancy hardcovers for collectors and true fans. No more paperbacks or standard hardcovers.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It all depends on what works best for your brand, because it's not "one size fits all."


I think that pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

James R Wells said:


> Taylor Swift expressly refuses to go on Spotify because it's such a bad deal for the artist. Others likely think they need the exposure; she doesn't need no stinking exposure.


Yeah I was trying to be ironic about Taylor. But I didn't do it well. Sorry.


----------



## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

Based on 4+ years, 200+ titles in 8 different pen names across 4 different genres and trying all the various incarnations of KU throughout the years, I would say yes. Russell is 100% correct.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

AngelaQuarles said:


> I think what he means is that he would only be cultivating the type of reader who only pays through subscription. There are a ton of readers who don't do the subscription thing and will pay full price for a book and he's noticing that _those_ readers aren't buying his book because his sales go down even though his algos push him up. I think he means that a writer is giving up on a chance to cultivate the latter if they're only focusing on the former.


Yes you expressed it better than I did. You must be a writer! 



IreneP said:


> I don't think 'cheapen your brand' is necessarily the right attitude. As others have pointed out, "brand" differs for each writer. ... Bandying around terms like "cheapen" seems a little derogatory to authors who choose to utilize KU, though.


Well of course I didn't mean to judge or disparage anyone. I'm initiating discussion based on evidence. By "cheapen" I mean that it seems to me

1. Choosing Select means putting one's book into a marketplace where Big Publishing does not tread, for openers. For whatever reason, right or wrong, Big Publishing does not do KU. MacMillan, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins and Penguin do not publish in KU. So, again right or wrong, by publishing in KU one is distinguishing one's brand as separate from Big Publishing authors and product. That's just a fact.

2. The TYPE of reader one gets in Select is different from the type of reader outside of Select. Readers who are Select enrollees just plain don't buy as many books. That's why they enrolled--they want a bargain. They are the bargain hunters, the Costco member types of book readers. Thus by publishing in Select, an author's income may rise, but the volume of unit sales may (and often does) go down. You may be getting more borrowing readers, but not more buying readers. The type of reader shifts.

3. In Select, an ebook, unless it's free or 99 cents or so, goes for cheaper. Two months ago "the payment per page read for October was $0.0048 per page" for KU. (Figures courtesy Morris at Foner Books, fonerbooks.com/selfpublishing/select-royalty-kenp-continues-to-drop. By the way the KENPC keeps dropping despite that Amazon's stock more than doubled in 2015, but that's a different topic.) What does $0.0048 per page mean for a 400-page book read all the way? $1.92.

Look, again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not saying someone should or should not publish in Select. But are there long-term consequences of deciding to go Select, or not? And do those consequences matter enough to factor into one's decision? That's what I'm interested in.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

TimothyEllis said:


> I'll repeat what I've said a few times before.
> 
> KU is splitting the readers into 2 groups.
> 
> ...


What is to stop someone with KU from going back and re-borrowing a book to re-read it? My daughter just told me about her friend who loves a particular book and keeps borrowing it from her high school library. We're getting her a copy for Christmas, but if the girl hadn't had the option of borrowing the book in the first place, she wouldn't have fallen in love with the book in the first place.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

"3. In Select, an ebook, unless it's free or 99 cents or so, goes for cheaper. Two months ago "the payment per page read for October was $0.0048 per page" for KU. (Figures courtesy Morris at Foner Books, fonerbooks.com/selfpublishing/select-royalty-kenp-continues-to-drop. By the way the KENPC keeps dropping despite that Amazon's stock more than doubled in 2015, but that's a different topic.) What does $0.0048 per page mean for a 400-page book read all the way? $1.92."

If that is 400 print pages then it will equate to 600 or more KENP, which changes the payout significantly. For a book priced at $2.99, a sale pays about $2.05. For a trad published author's ebook at $12.99, the author gets about $2.07. A full read in KU for the first novel in my sig is $2.31. It's 273 print pages.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> "3. In Select, an ebook, unless it's free or 99 cents or so, goes for cheaper. Two months ago "the payment per page read for October was $0.0048 per page" for KU. (Figures courtesy Morris at Foner Books, fonerbooks.com/selfpublishing/select-royalty-kenp-continues-to-drop. By the way the KENPC keeps dropping despite that Amazon's stock more than doubled in 2015, but that's a different topic.) What does $0.0048 per page mean for a 400-page book read all the way? $1.92."
> 
> If that is 400 print pages then it will equate to 600 or more KENP, which changes the payout significantly. For a book priced at $2.99, a sale pays about $2.05. For a trad published author's ebook at $12.99, the author gets about $2.07. A full read in KU for the first novel in my sig is $2.31. It's 273 print pages.


Fair enough. Thanks for the numbers!


----------



## Aderyn Wood (Feb 2, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> "3. In Select, an ebook, unless it's free or 99 cents or so, goes for cheaper. Two months ago "the payment per page read for October was $0.0048 per page" for KU. (Figures courtesy Morris at Foner Books, fonerbooks.com/selfpublishing/select-royalty-kenp-continues-to-drop. By the way the KENPC keeps dropping despite that Amazon's stock more than doubled in 2015, but that's a different topic.) What does $0.0048 per page mean for a 400-page book read all the way? $1.92."
> 
> If that is 400 print pages then it will equate to 600 or more KENP, which changes the payout significantly. For a book priced at $2.99, a sale pays about $2.05. For a trad published author's ebook at $12.99, the author gets about $2.07. A full read in KU for the first novel in my sig is $2.31. It's 273 print pages.


Is there a way of finding out how many pages your book actually has in KU?


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Aderyn Wood said:


> Is there a way of finding out how many pages your book actually has in KU?


Not without enrolling it. If it's enrolled, go to your bookshelf, click on "Promote and Advertise", then scroll down to "Earn royalties from the KDP Select Global Fund" and the KENP will be listed.

A way to get a rough estimate is to count the number of characters and spaces in the manuscript, minus front matter, and divide by 1,000.


----------



## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

I enrolled in Select for the first time this fall, with an older 5-book, completed series that was earning me an average of $500 a month with the first book permafree. Since most of that was on Amazon and I'd heard that KU gave more visibility, I hoped I could earn more if I went in.

Instead, my sales plummeted and I've only made about $25 on borrows a month. I went from $500 to less than $100 a month for this series. Maybe it's the time of year. Maybe it would've happened anyway, but I am getting out. I can't tell you how disappointing it was to have that extra visibility not pan out.

Like, at ALL. I've tried running .99 promos, free days, and there is no movement. I'm counting the days until I'm free from KU.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

W.W. said:


> I enrolled in Select for the first time this fall, with an older 5-book, completed series that was earning me an average of $500 a month with the first book permafree. Since most of that was on Amazon and I'd heard that KU gave more visibility, I hoped I could earn more if I went in.
> 
> Instead, my sales plummeted and I've only made about $25 on borrows a month. I went from $500 to less than $100 a month for this series. Maybe it's the time of year. Maybe it would've happened anyway, but I am getting out. I can't tell you how disappointing it was to have that extra visibility not pan out.
> 
> Like, at ALL. I've tried running .99 promos, free days, and there is no movement. I'm counting the days until I'm free from KU.


Actually, this is a good point.

I noticed with my ongoing series, 2 months between novel releases had KU reads dropping into nothingness.

But as soon as my next novel hit the new releases lists, the KU reads have picked back up again.

KU doesn't give instant visibility. KU pays when you already have visibility. Lose the visibility, you lose KU reads.

So putting in an old series, in and of it itself, isn't going to work. It has to have some visibility factor going along with it.

BTW, it is also the time of year. As soon as the time change happened, everything dropped.


----------



## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

TimothyEllis said:


> Actually, this is a good point.
> 
> I noticed with my ongoing series, 2 months between novel releases had KU reads dropping into nothingness.
> 
> ...


Yes, that makes sense. I hope someone else can benefit from my sharing this. I would not recommend entering KU for a series that's complete. As for series that start in KU, I have no idea, but I'm afraid to try it with any new series.

My earnings for other books through nook (direct) and Apple (D2D) used to be about 20% of my income, but each will exceed my Amazon earnings this month, separately. They have risen about 30% and my Amazon revenue has plummeted. My Amazon earnings are absolutely in the toilet.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

W.W. said:


> Yes, that makes sense. I hope someone else can benefit from my sharing this. I would not recommend entering KU for a series that's complete. As for series that start in KU, I have no idea, but I'm afraid to try it with any new series.


As with all other personal experiences, someone else's experience may be different. I put a 5-book series into KU in July. At that time, the newest book was 8 months old. KU reads more than made up for my sales wide, and I've had my two best months since then. So my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. My sales haven't diminished at all and the KU reads are now 50-65% of my total income.


----------



## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

brkingsolver said:


> As with all other personal experiences, someone else's experience may be different. I put a 5-book series into KU in July. At that time, the newest book was 8 months old. KU reads more than made up for my sales wide, and I've had my two best months since then. So my experience is exactly the opposite of yours. My sales haven't diminished at all and the KU reads are now 50-65% of my total income.


I'm glad it's working out well for you, B.R.


----------



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

I'll chime in here since I authored the words in question.

I'm approaching this as a brand manager, not an author. I can as an author, too, but it's more useful, when stewarding a brand, to do so as a brand manager.

It's really very simple, and self-explanatory to anyone who's ever shopped, which is everyone. There are some customers who are coupon clippers. They won't buy anything, if they can at all help it, without a coupon. Retailers understand that, as do manufacturers. There are other customers who will impulse buy because they see a sale. Retailers and manufacturers understand that, too. There are still others who will pay full price when they want something. Ditto for everyone understanding that segmentation. There is of course overlap, but when you're deciding who your audience is as a brand manager, you have to target one and be pretty clear on why they buy your product, or you won't be in business that long.

When you try to build a premium brand, you do so not by targeting coupon clippers as your core audience, nor by constant sales and promotions past a certain point, as the perceived value of your offering declines in the mind of the buyer. That's been my experience. You can't charge Ralph Lauren prices if you aren't protecting your brand appropriately - you're just another $3 polo shirt in the discount bin at Walmart. Brand identity, and its role in pricing power, is huge.

I'm not saying that KU is evil. I'm saying that, depending upon your goal, it may, or may not, be appropriate for you. I have a number of titles in KU. I do so because I want to ensure I get the equivalent of the coupon clippers: the voracious readers for whom price is a big issue. But I'm not sure my pricing strategy, which is to sell new releases in the $6-$7 range, is consistent with getting paid 50% of what I see from a sale via a borrow, especially when exclusivity is required, which it is. And I'm not sure I'm all that interested in branding myself as an author whose premium work can be had for the equivalent of next to nothing via subscription. Neither of those outcomes is one I get particularly excited about.

I believe KU's effectiveness in the short to mid term is highly genre dependent, so the answer of should I or shouldn't I probably has much to do with genre. It also has to do with an author's pricing power - if they can't give their work away at $3 or $4, then any revenue is good revenue, because at least they're getting paid something, right? Perceived value generally translates into pricing power in retail. I've learned that over the years. And selling books is a retail business.

There is no one size fits all. We're all at different points in our career trajectories, working in different genres, with different expectations. I tend to view things from a longer horizon than many I talk to, which may be foolish given that in the long term we're all dead, or not so foolish - if it works for me. So far so good. I'm at month 54 of writing as a full time endeavor, and I'm being rewarded more than handsomely for my efforts. Does that mean everyone should go wide, or shun KU on philosophical grounds, or whatnot? Absolutely not. I actually have a good relationship with Amazon - I should, I pay them multiple six figures every year for distributing my work, so I'm not bagging on Amazon. I'm saying that in my opinion, if you're trying to build a brand with perceived high quality, targeting coupon clippers isn't a strategy I'd recommend. But there's the irony: there's a lot of money to be made off coupon clippers, so if your business strategy is to target that segment, it's simply a different strategy than the one I take, not a better or worse one. The dollar store type venues make a fortune. Big box stores make a fortune. Outlet stores make a fortune. Premium retailers can make fortunes. Manufacturers exist that target all segments, and smart brand managers will often have different brands for the downmarket buyers.

Ebooks are entertainment. Hollywood studios don't make the films they expect to sell $15 tickets to, free to watch via subscription, until they've aged a certain amount of time and they've wrung all the profit to be had from theatrical release from the movie. But there's also a segment that does well, which is the direct to DVD, or the made for subscription. There are lots of wealthy folks from those models, too. But they all recognize they're different models, they don't argue that direct to DVD is a better idea than theatrical release, or vice versa. They get that they are different strategies for different products that are targeted at different market segments.

Having said that, I know a lot of musicians, many of whom are well enough known to have been doing it for 20+ years for a living via recording contracts. They can't make money unless they tour now, and they managed to hold onto their merchandising. The subscription model has gutted them, no question, but that's life, and they have to drag their tired #sses onto a stage a few hundred times a year now, rather than releasing an album. It's still better than laying bricks, but it's a different model, and they've adapted. Is there an adaptation authors can make should subscription models wind up paying a few pennies per read? Not sure what that is, but hey, I'm all ears, and I'm sure that those who write because they love to will keep doing so, whether it pays, or not. But that's not a business - that's a hobby, a labor of love. As a brand manager, I run a business.

So now the question is, what model do you want for your brand over the long term? I can't answer that. I've made my decision for my own brand, but if I were running a publishing company, I might have some titles/authors/genres I target at subscription services, and others that are my flagship brands. Depends on a lot of things. I might not see much of a future for some five or ten years out, and recognize they're in declining value genres that are best optimized now, while the getting's good. I might believe their genre will be gutted by subscription models, but belly up to the trough for now, because it is what it is. I don't know. But what I do know is that I've always aspired to receive what I view as fair value for my work. I'd rather set it on fire than sell it for less than I believe it's worth. I'm stubborn that way, and have probably lost plenty of readers by being "too expensive" or whatnot. That's fine by me. I have free offerings, and lower priced offerings, and yes, offerings in KU, to catch those who are in that segment. But the lion's share of my work isn't targeted at that, which doesn't make me superior in any way, merely means I have a brand vision, I'm disciplined about execution, and have received enough positive financial feedback from the market that I believe I'm doing it right.

For me.

Others will have different experiences. YMMV.

Anyhow, that's how this entire bit came about. And now, back to work for me. Because the books don't write themselves.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

RodT said:


> Nothing stops anyone from re-borrowing a book, however you will only get paid for the first time. I am unclear about any impact on ranking, but would assume it would only impact the first time it was borrowed to keep people from manipulating a books rank.


Oh, I know that an author doesn't get paid again, however, they can be paid again if the person then goes on to buy the book. That can't happen if they buy initially. Anyway, my point was more that I don't want to judge what kind of reader a person is by how they acquire their reading material. Buy or borrow, as long as they aren't stealing it, I don't care. I don't think people who buy books are more invested in a book. I have many books I've bought but put aside after a chapter or two.


----------



## RubyMadden (Jun 11, 2014)

The way I see it is like this; can you dedicate a pen name to KU? If yes, then design a series and/or brand that works best in KU.

If you have stories you'd rather be sold WIDE, then develop a pen name that does exactly that.

You can have as many pen names as you're willing to manage and able to write for. 

For me, that is how I did it. A pen name is KU dedicated, another one is WIDE and the others are hybrids.


----------



## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

Okay, that was very informative.  I have enough info now to move on with my decision, glad I read this post and thank you Harvey (RIP) for making Kboards and specifically the Writer's Café.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

blakebooks said:


> I'll chime in here since I authored the words in question.
> 
> I'm approaching this as a brand manager, not an author. I can as an author, too, but it's more useful, when stewarding a brand, to do so as a brand manager.
> 
> ...


Thanks Russell.


----------



## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

I've often toyed with the idea of releasing a title out of KU for the first month or two (or possibly even three months) and then put it into KU after that. This way, you optimize revenue, while the "dollar theater" people have to wait to read it. This is a system that seems to work pretty well for movie releases since the invention of cable and now, things like Redbox and streaming. You would only do this for your bestselling series, but drop it into KU faster (or even right away) for your lesser series.

Thoughts?


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

blakebooks said:


> It's really very simple, and self-explanatory to anyone who's ever shopped, which is everyone. There are some customers who are coupon clippers. They won't buy anything, if they can at all help it, without a coupon. Retailers understand that, as do manufacturers. There are other customers who will impulse buy because they see a sale.
> .....
> I'm not saying that KU is evil. I'm saying that, depending upon your goal, it may, or may not, be appropriate for you. I have a number of titles in KU. I do so because I want to ensure I get the equivalent of the coupon clippers:


That's a pretty big assumption - that KU is all coupon clippers.

I think you're completely wrong to make that assumption.

Sure, some will be. Others are taking advantage of being able to read a lot more books for their buck, but that doesn't make them coupon clippers, it just makes them have a disposable income shorter than their reading habit. Others are taking advantage of a cheaper way to vet books before they buy.



benwest said:


> I've often toyed with the idea of releasing a title out of KU for the first month or two (or possibly even three months) and then put it into KU after that. This way, you optimize revenue, while the "dollar theater" people have to wait to read it. This is a system that seems to work pretty well for movie releases since the invention of cable and now, things like Redbox and streaming. You would only do this for your bestselling series, but drop it into KU faster (or even right away) for your lesser series.


Dont do that with a series. When KU2 first started, I kept my new releases out of it, thinking it would maximize sales. Until with book 4, I got a 1 star review from someone who's only complaint was it was the only book in the series not in KU. With book 5 I put it straight into KU. It didnt get the spike in sales that 4 did to begin with, but the overall money was significantly better because of KU.

With book 7 (the next novel), I had a day 1 spike from my mailing list, and since then, KU has been going crazy. Still getting better sales than book 5 did, but reads are returning to the same level I saw for 5.

Not going into KU for a month or 2 may be a good strategy for a stand alone book, but dont do it with a series. Once your in KU, release into KU immediately.


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I love KU as a reader--I get to read as many books as I can download and read in a month for ten bucks. I've been exposed to a lot of writers I never knew before, and have gone on to buy a whole lot more books. I haven't bought tradpub fiction in months--it's all gone to tradpub nonfiction and indie fiction.

As a writer, I'm happy with KU so far. I've got all of seven weeks of data, which isn't much, but I'm liking what I'm seeing. Slowly building my brand. If at some point it stops working, I'll make a new brand. Or make another one and try different tactics. So many options in this new world and one of them is experimenting with everything. I can build multiple brands and do a lot with them--one KU exclusive, one wide, one Apple exclusive, etc.


----------



## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

RubyMadden said:


> The way I see it is like this; can you dedicate a pen name to KU? If yes, then design a series and/or brand that works best in KU.
> 
> If you have stories you'd rather be sold WIDE, then develop a pen name that does exactly that.
> 
> ...


This is my plan for 2016. I've got my main pen name that is in wide distribution. I price my main pen name books at $4.99 for full length novels and $9.99 for boxed sets. I am starting a couple of pen names for KU for romance novella serials (new adult/erotic and paranormal). Once the books go stale in KU, I will put the collections in wide distribution.

My thinking is that you should never put all your eggs in one basket. Use KU for what it's worth -- the coupon clippers who are voracious and read a lot. You can make a lot of money off them. Put other books in wide distribution at full price and catch the premium readers who are willing to pay full price to own rather than rent and who do not like Amazon or prefer iBooks or Kobo, etc. You can make a lot of money off those readers.


----------



## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> That's a pretty big assumption - that KU is all coupon clippers.
> 
> I think you're completely wrong to make that assumption.
> 
> ...


Have you done pre-orders with your books? If so, what was your highest pre-order number? I tend to think that if you have a high pre-order, that means you have a strong enough readership base that you don't need to cater to the cheapskate crowd.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

benwest said:


> Have you done pre-orders with your books? If so, what was your highest pre-order number? I tend to think that if you have a high pre-order, that means you have a strong enough readership base that you don't need to cater to the cheapskate crowd.


No, I dont do pre-orders.

I'm trying to write to a 6 week schedule. Having to have the book submitted 10 days before pre-order date would just mean a 10 day delay for the people clamoring for the next book. If I was doing them every 4 months or so, pre-order would be the way to go I guess. But so far, nothing about pre-order makes sense with the way I'm writing.

As a comparison though, first 4 days of book 7 saw 321 sales and 205 full reads. But day 5 is shaping up to close that gap.

Initial sales come from your mailing list and interaction with your readers. KU reads build after your rank rises from the initial sales.

I would think if I was doing pre-orders, I'd have had about 250. But that guessing. But pre-orders and first weeks sales would amount to the same thing - the springboard to launch the next few weeks KU reads.


----------



## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> No, I dont do pre-orders.
> 
> I'm trying to write to a 6 week schedule. Having to have the book submitted 10 days before pre-order date would just mean a 10 day delay for the people clamoring for the next book. If I was doing them every 4 months or so, pre-order would be the way to go I guess. But so far, nothing about pre-order makes sense with the way I'm writing.
> 
> ...


That might be where our results may possibly differ. My last release netted 5.5K pre-orders. Even though those numbers didn't count toward my sales rank, the book somehow still managed to enter the Top 100 (it fell right back out after a few days, of course). It would be interesting to find out. I would readily expect 1-star bombs from KU readers, but I'm thinking my pre-order readers and ARCs could easily bury those angry reviews.

But anyways, just a thought. I've been leaning toward not doing pre-orders this time anyway, if just to see if I can stay in the Top 100 longer and get more of a boost for the series that way.

I don't release a book every 4 weeks, so I have plenty of time to think on it some more...


----------



## Erratic (May 17, 2014)

Going wide was fun for all of a week. After that, the doubt started creeping in. Now I'm moving my vampire series back into select and never looking back. My best sales were at All Romance Ebooks with 14 sold. My second best was B&N with 1. Now, I know I pulled the plug early, about two weeks isn't a great time to test anything, but look at this way...Amazon would've sold me more books. I'm reaching more readers daily by participating in KU. That's important to building a brand.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

1) I'm concerned about Amazon gaining even more market share than they already have (into the future)
2) i need to do what makes me the most right _now_, as this is my business and I have kids to feed and clothe
3) I want to create a brand and books that have lasting value and will be remembered by readers many years into the future

In my case, these things might just be irreconcilable. And I can only do well at Apple, B&N etc with big promotions such as bookbub. My books just don't bounce along at other distributors.


----------



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> That's a pretty big assumption - that KU is all coupon clippers.
> 
> I think you're completely wrong to make that assumption.


It would be a boring world if everyone agreed with my assumptions, although, perhaps, a more reasonable one. I'm not looking for validation or agreement, I'm sharing my thinking process in the hopes it might prove illuminating to a slim few. I also didn't say ALL KU readers are coupon clippers, or that none own Bentleys or sip Dom, or that KU readers are somehow bad, whereas non-KU readers are good. I tried to articulate that as a brand manager, my job is to make assumptions about audience segmentation, and target the segment I want. If I'm targeting those who frequent the dollar store, my job is not to argue endlessly whether some who frequent the store might pull up in Benzes or not. It's to be mostly right, most of the time.

So far, so good.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

TimothyEllis said:


> As long as the subscription service limits you to 10 books on your device at a time, people are going to want to buy them to have all the time. If the subscription service ever changes to allow people to store books forever, then it will remove the need to buy. At the moment, its polarising the readers, and as long as you stick with Amazon, you shouldn't be missing out.


Well, there's nothing to stop me from borrowing the same book more than once, when I want to read it (unless the book is no longer in KU; and then I still have the option of buying it.

I don't know about coupons, I'm not much of a coupon clipper...but I have found authors I liked in KU who I went on to buy books by.

Betsy


----------



## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, there's nothing to stop me from borrowing the same book more than once, when I want to read it (unless the book is no longer in KU; and then I still have the option of buying it.
> 
> I don't know about coupons, I'm not much of a coupon clipper...*but I have found authors I liked in KU who I went on to buy books by.
> *
> Betsy


I hear KU readers say this often (many times on this board, in fact), but I'm not sure I believe it. Are you willing to say how often you've actually done this? And why would you buy their books and not just read all of them using your KU subscription? Is it a conscious effort to support the author because you know the KU system isn't really fair to them? Or is it because some of their books are not in KU?

I'm genuinely curious because it doesn't compute to me.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

blakebooks said:


> I tried to articulate that as a brand manager, my job is to make assumptions about audience segmentation, and target the segment I want.


Have you tried taking your brand manager hat off, and putting your author hat back on, long enough to question what your brand manager hat is saying?

Honestly, I cant get my head around the concept of an author caring about the demographics of where their money comes from.

Maybe that defines me as a newbie, but I simply dont care.

I've looked at the threads advocating going wide. I've my own experience of being in KU. I can't see that going wide will sell me any more than I'm making money wise in KU at the moment.

Who KU people happen to be, doesn't even seem relevant to me. Beyond my own observation of re-readers verses once only's, which is an argument for being in KU more than anything.

All I know is, KU is providing me with a very good income, as long as I keep feeding it with new books.

On the other hand though, if you stop feeding KU with new books, there is plenty of evidence to show that KU stops feeding you. But that has everything to do with visibility, and zero to do with demographics.

And just for the record, I haven't done anything $1 store yet. My first in series is $2.99, and my short story is $1.99. I've never discounted, and wont be until I get a bookbub.

KU pays me an equivalent of a sale, and I treat them the same. One full read = 1 sale. Read or sale makes no real difference to me, its all money in the bank.

So as far as "cheapen your brand" is concerned, no such thing for me. Now, give me a few years to get into the $5.99 bracket, and maybe there will be something to it.

And maybe that is a qualification you should have made up front. You equate KU with dollar store, but perhaps that is only true if you're an author who prices above $5. For those of us not above the $3.99 price yet, KU is comparable with a sale. Maybe this will change, who knows, but for now, I dont call KU 'dollar store' - I call it money in the bank.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

benwest said:


> I hear KU readers say this often (many times on this board, in fact), but I'm not sure I believe it. Are you willing to say how often you've actually done this? And why would you buy their books and not just read all of them using your KU subscription? Is it a conscious effort to support the author because you know the KU system isn't really fair to them? Or is it because some of their books are not in KU?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious because it doesn't compute to me.


Sorry for any confusion. I don't buy books that are in KU; I buy non-KU books by authors who have some of their works in KU, where I discovered them. I tend to binge read authors.

I'm afraid I believe the fairness or not of the system is for each author to decide for his or herself; it's not a factor in my decision process. Based on this thread, some think it is unfair, others don't.

Betsy


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

John Twipnook said:


> Readers who are Select enrollees just plain don't buy as many books. That's why they enrolled--they want a bargain.


According to Russ Grandinetti (Amazon VP for Kindle) they buy more books. Of course that is a dubious use of statistics as it more likely points to those who buy more books also buying a KU (and maybe also a Scribd) subscription. To use a UK example I've just bought my annual print books (because a friend gives me a Waterstones token for my birthday). Those paperbacks are priced at the UK standard price of £7.99. Of the two books I bought at that price last year one remains unread. KU costs £7.99 in the UK. Amazon makes its money from those who so freely spend £7.99 on a paperback that they don't read that they don't mind spending £7.99 on a subscription even if some months they don't read anything. The subscription business model relies on most subscribers not looking for a bargain, but for convenience.



P.J. Post said:


> The subscriptions concept goes back at least as far as HBO and cable television, although it has exploded with the advancement of entertainment technology over the last decade.


My first library subscription was taken out in 1983 for the Linen Hall Library in Belfast. That library existed before the digital world was born having been set up in 1788.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm afraid I believe the fairness or not of the system is for each author to decide for his or herself; it's not a factor in my decision process. Based on this thread, some think it is unfair, others don't.


That sounds like the voice of the reader. 

I think that's where the OP has missed being specific.

For an author who commands $7.99 or higher (maybe even as low as $5.99), KU's payout is a pittance, and therefore could be called 'the dollar store'.

But for most of us, who cant command above $3.99, its nothing of the kind, being pretty equal to sales value.


----------



## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Not Lu said:


> If all the books you want to "repeatedly re-read" are in the library, would you buy them too? I'm guessing you wouldn't unless it was for the collector in you.
> 
> Here's my prediction of the book world 20 years from now (in developed countries). A few eBook libraries will dominate the market. Then there will be a niche market of fancy hardcovers for collectors and true fans. No more paperbacks or standard hardcovers.


Maybe in the US, but the rest of the developed world is slower to adopt e-books and doesn't much seem to care for subscription services.


----------



## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

I think the important thing to understand Tim, is that Russell has always priced his books high. (Though they don't seem to be as high as they used to be.) Selling books for $2.99 probably seems like the dollar store in comparison too. 

For me, I like KU. A sale nets me about the same as a read with my prices/book lengths. I have no problem with being a dollar store seller. I like making things cheap so that price isn't a barrier to reading my books. I've spent far too long being poor myself to want to be exclusive label. Not that there's anything wrong with exclusive label, it's just not me.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Rinelle Grey said:


> I think the important thing to understand Tim, is that Russell has always priced his books high. (Though they don't seem to be as high as they used to be.) Selling books for $2.99 probably seems like the dollar store in comparison too.
> 
> For me, I like KU. A sale nets me about the same as a read with my prices/book lengths. I have no problem with being a dollar store seller. I like making things cheap so that price isn't a barrier to reading my books. I've spent far too long being poor myself to want to be exclusive label. Not that there's anything wrong with exclusive label, it's just not me.


Blake has also done smart things in aiming for the higher paying market. His books look indistinguishable from a trad published book, for example. Professional, intelligent cover branding (which he changes up to keep up with the times, I believe), great editing and formatting, etc. It's a little easier to command higher prices when your books look like top quality as well.


----------



## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Blake has also done smart things in aiming for the higher paying market. His books look indistinguishable from a trad published book, for example. Professional, intelligent cover branding (which he changes up to keep up with the times, I believe), great editing and formatting, etc. It's a little easier to command higher prices when your books look like top quality as well.


Absolutely. And he has some excellent advice. This one definitely made me think. (And this discussion has been great too.) Russell's comments say to know your audience, and then describes his. He also says that if you're aiming for a different audience, market to that.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

TimothyEllis said:


> That sounds like the voice of the reader.


Well, it's the voice of *A* reader. I don't pretend to be *the* reader.

I support authors by choosing books I read these days largely from authors who post here on KBoards and by letting my friends know when I've found an author I particularly enjoy. But I don't spend money to support authors; I spend it for my own benefit.

Betsy


----------



## booklover888 (May 20, 2012)

As another reader, I do enjoy looking at books that are linked in author's siggys here on KB. If the book is in KU, and looks interesting, I'll add it to my WL.

I have a question for authors who have books in KU. If I borrow a book, and choose "Transfer via computer," and put it on my Kindle that way, and never turn the wifi on on the device, how does the author get paid? Does the author get the complete pages read when I return the book, even though the device never communicated with the mother ship?


----------



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

To put this to bed, a couple of thoughts: 

1) Every author's career is different. I went out of the gate with pro covers and editing, and strived to create "as good or better than trad" from the get go. I also priced at $3.99 back when many were claiming .99 was the best way to gain exposure and build a readership. Early on, I voiced the opinion that I felt it branded you as a .99 author, and that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to move much beyond that without seeing your sales tunnel - because of perception of the worth of your offering. To this day there are folks who have amateur covers and feel they don't require professional editing. Not surprisingly, most of them have no pricing power. For those, perhaps, KU is a good deal, because nobody will pay them for a sale more than KU will for a read, and it's clearly not the top tier they're shooting for, which is why they feel an amateur cover and amateur editing are sufficient. Both are valid approaches. I've always counseled going for the higher end on craft, covers, and editing, so you have pricing power - they tend to go hand in hand. Some disagree. They're the stewards of their careers, so hey, they will reap the rewards of their approach. Doesn't much matter to me or affect me at all.

2) I put my author hat on when I'm generating content. That's when it's appropriate to be an author. When I'm looking at marketing or promotions, or packaging, or pricing, I want my business person hat on. Because those are business activities, and I've got decades of successfully operating businesses in a variety of fields. So I look at things like market segmentation as a brand manager with considerable depth in retail. Which is how I prefer it.

3) Confounding "I make more in KU than out" without acknowledging that in order to make money wide, it can take six months or more to establish a readership on other platforms, and that further, different genres perform radically differently on other platforms (sci fi tends to be Amazon-centric, as an example), is akin to arguing angels on the heads of pins. I have books in KU, and I've had those same titles out, so I can do data-based evaluations of what happens to sales when I go into KU with those titles. I've discussed on my blog the popular assumption that higher ranking equates to better visibility on Amazon, and that the higher ranking will thus equate to better sales (vs. borrows/page reads), but for my titles, I haven't seen that. I see a ton of borrows and reads, and few sales. That tells me that in my genre, those who are using KU tend to use the POP lists and ranking as a discovery mechanism, but that people who buy books, don't - if they did, you'd logically expect your sales (as opposed to overall revenue from page reads) to increase from all that visibility. I haven't seen that. That leads me to conclude, in my genre, at least, that being in KU exposes me to folks who largely borrow, and rarely buy (or alternatively, who rarely buy authors whose work they view as readable for nearly free to them, and thus of low perceived value). Now, some disagree with my interpretation, and other don't. Again, I'm not here to convince anyone to do anything. Everyone's situation is different, and it's not my paycheck at the end of the year, it's yours. But I will say I've seen a trend that's pretty consistent in indie publishing over the last four and a half years, and that is short term thinking, rather than long. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it is what it is, and delivers different results over time than long term thinking, at least for me. When I remain focused on long term objectives, I find I make better short term decisions. As an example, if the question is, "Where do I want to be in five years and how do I get there," that will give me a different answer than "how do I maximize revenues this month?" Of course, years are composed of months, but frankly, focusing on what works best this week or month is reactive, and not strategic. Again, nothing wrong with reactive, but it doesn't work well for me. Maybe it does for some, and their careers reflect that. Shrug. Good for them.

In summary, I have no axe to grind. I have some titles in KU so I catch those readers, and most out. It's diversification, and nothing more, for me. As to the payout, the trend ain't anyone's friend, unless guessing what you're getting paid each month (and it being less most of the time) is a good way to run a business. Given that it makes it impossible to forecast, make informed marketing investments, etc., I'm not a fan - and yes, I know I can guess what it will be, and probably come close, but that's guessing, not knowing. I'm quite sure there are folks who, if hired to do a job, would be okay with being told, "we'll pay you whatever we feel like after you've done the work, based on however many others we also have to pay, as well as just how we feel about everything." I'm not one of them. 

Finally, the history of the subscription model, at least in music, isn't positive for content creators. Maybe it is for listeners, but as a content creator, that's not much consolation if I can't earn a living any more creating content, and that's what the model's done to most musicians. If there's some reason that this time will be different with another digital form of downloadable entertainment - ebooks - I'd have to be pretty skeptical of all claims as to why that is. 

With that, I return to writing, as I have another novel starting tomorrow, and it's not going to outline and write itself.


----------



## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

I see KU as I see Netflix: It's great for the price, I get to watch a lot of movies for little money--but any of them might disappear at any time. So I still buy the odd film if I love it enough. 

I've surveyed readers and there are those who use KU and who buy books they love. There are even those who read my ARCs and buy my books in spite of being handed free copies. 

It's a tough call for authors, but it comes down to what works or doesn't for the individual. Unless we're going to claim that making series for Netflix "cheapens" the brand (see Marvel's Daredevil or Jessica Jones for samples of something decidedly non-cheap), I don't think there's any reason to argue that KU cheapens an author's work. It's all about business and finding readers--and personal preference.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I think maybe sometimes it would help if writers take off their writing hat and try to pretend to see things from the readers side.
> 
> I am a voracious reader, I have a KU subscription, I buy books, I use the library. Once in a while I still borrow a book from an online friend. In the past we'd have past around a paper book among 5-10 of us.
> 
> ...


I so agree with all of this ^^

I subscribe to KU and find tons of great books to read. I still buy ebooks from my favorite authors even if they are not in KU. For books I am particularly fond of, I buy the hardcover or paperback and add it to my library shelf at home. Looking at it all from the reader perspective, it doesn't matter to me at all if a book is KU or not. If it's something I want to read, I'm gonna find a way to read it.


----------



## AngelaQuarles (Jun 22, 2014)

blakebooks said:


> To put this to bed, a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) Every author's career is different. I went out of the gate with pro covers and editing, and strived to create "as good or better than trad" from the get go. I also priced at $3.99 back when many were claiming .99 was the best way to gain exposure and build a readership. Early on, I voiced the opinion that I felt it branded you as a .99 author, and that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to move much beyond that without seeing your sales tunnel - because of perception of the worth of your offering. To this day there are folks who have amateur covers and feel they don't require professional editing. Not surprisingly, most of them have no pricing power. For those, perhaps, KU is a good deal, because nobody will pay them for a sale more than KU will for a read, and it's clearly not the top tier they're shooting for, which is why they feel an amateur cover and amateur editing are sufficient. Both are valid approaches. I've always counseled going for the higher end on craft, covers, and editing, so you have pricing power - they tend to go hand in hand. Some disagree. They're the stewards of their careers, so hey, they will reap the rewards of their approach. Doesn't much matter to me or affect me at all.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Russell! I've really enjoyed your comments and they resonate with me at least


----------



## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Sorry for any confusion. I don't buy books that are in KU; I buy non-KU books by authors who have some of their works in KU, where I discovered them. I tend to binge read authors.
> 
> I'm afraid I believe the fairness or not of the system is for each author to decide for his or herself; it's not a factor in my decision process. Based on this thread, some think it is unfair, others don't.
> 
> Betsy


Ah, see, that makes sense. And further convinces me to do my movie release thing... Thanks.


----------



## Censored (Oct 31, 2014)

IreneP said:


> What does concern me is Amazon getting more and more market share - to which we are all contributing when we go exclusive. The more market share they have, the less incentive they have to offer good terms to authors. This would be true of any company, but Amazon has a history of being especially ruthless in squeezing it's vendors.


Agree with both the above and Blake's sentiments. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

blakebooks said:


> To put this to bed, a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) Every author's career is different. I went out of the gate with pro covers and editing, and strived to create "as good or better than trad" from the get go. I also priced at $3.99 back when many were claiming .99 was the best way to gain exposure and build a readership. Early on, I voiced the opinion that I felt it branded you as a .99 author, and that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to move much beyond that without seeing your sales tunnel - because of perception of the worth of your offering. To this day there are folks who have amateur covers and feel they don't require professional editing. Not surprisingly, most of them have no pricing power. For those, perhaps, KU is a good deal, because nobody will pay them for a sale more than KU will for a read, and it's clearly not the top tier they're shooting for, which is why they feel an amateur cover and amateur editing are sufficient. Both are valid approaches. I've always counseled going for the higher end on craft, covers, and editing, so you have pricing power - they tend to go hand in hand. Some disagree. They're the stewards of their careers, so hey, they will reap the rewards of their approach. Doesn't much matter to me or affect me at all.
> 
> ...


Methinks Mr Blake talks a lot of sense


----------



## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

Liliana Hart also gives similar advice to Russell: http://www.thecreativepenn.com/2015/09/21/dont-go-exclusive-build-a-long-term-career-as-an-author-on-multiple-platforms-with-liliana-hart/

I have personally seen authors being put down by their readers when they decided not to put a new series in KU (e.g. statements like "If I can't get the books for free, I won'T read them anymore"), so I think there is some merit to the theory of cheapening an author's brand. Sure, it's hard to share that POV when you are cashing in a lot from KU right now and going wide would mean taking a loss for a few months at least, but I think everyone should keep an open mind.

Also, as someone who's worked in marketing and studied business, from a business POV Russell and Liliana's advice is legit.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

benwest said:


> I hear KU readers say this often (many times on this board, in fact), but I'm not sure I believe it. Are you willing to say how often you've actually done this? * * * Or is it because some of their books are not in KU?


For me I discover new authors through KU. If I like that author, I'll read everything that sounds appealing they have in KU. Then if they have other books not in KU that sound appealing and the price is right, I'll buy those. I've pretty much stopped buying books from new-to-me authors except in the case of highly recommended ones from someone I feel pretty confident in. Been burned too many times by books that look good (cover and blurb) and have a good sample and then fall apart.

As to buying after discovering in KU, that also depends. If the author's other books are reasonably priced, I do it without a second thought. However, one mystery series I started in KU then went to buy-only books at a reasonable price, and I bought them. Then the latest in the series was $9.99. I dropped the series at that point. However, $9.99 isn't my top price. There are a couple of favorite authors I'll pay what it takes to get their newest book. Yet I'm a voracious reader. If all KU subscribers were like me, we'd bankrupt Amazon in a month.

P.S. What makes a price reasonable for me is a function of how much I like the KU books. $2.99 and $3.99 almost always, yes. From $4.99 I have to have liked the KU books more than averagely (if that's not a word it should be).

P.S.2 I've seen a couple of authors who only put shorts in KU and keep their novels buy-only. I don't know how that affects others, but it turns me off and doesn't hook me into trying the KU shorts or buying their full length books.


----------



## Guest (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't see subscription models as any different than libraries. So long as a reader acquires a legal copy of my book, I don't care if they buy it, borrow it from the library, or read it as part of a subscription.

The problem with SELECT is that the exclusivity issue can stifle your brand, because you become a "private label" brand for Amazon.

For folks who don't know the term, you would know them as 'store brands.' In the past, store brands were the cheap alternatives to brand names. But private label brands have exploded over the last few years with different stores using their own exclusive private labels to build customer loyalty. Companies like CVS are spending HUGE amounts of money to promote their private labels (I know because I work in contract packaging).

The issue with private label brands, however, is that the brand loyalty belongs to the COMPANY, not the product. As a "private label" author for Amazon, Amazon is the one generating the brand goodwill with Select. As an author, you have to ask yourself, "If I left Amazon tomorrow, would my readers follow me?" If the answer is 'no' then they aren't YOUR fans per se. They are Amazon's fans. Chances are high that if you left Amazon your readers would simply transition to another author in your genre with similar work.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with private label. There are actually plenty of companies you never heard of making serious bank manufacturing private label products (in the past, private label products were simply the brand name products repackaged in plain packaging. Now a lot of private label products are original formulations with no brand name counterpart.) But it IS important to understand where the brand loyalty is with these business partnerships so that you can plan accordingly.

As has been said, for some genres with high volume readers, Select can make sense. There is a large demographic of loyal Amazon customers who are ONLY going to go to Select for their books. And if your books fall into those reading patterns you can do well. But you do need to accept that in a way you are a private label brand for Amazon and not a stand-alone brand unto yourself. Once people are on Amazon, they might look for you specifically. But if you leave Amazon they aren't following you: you will be replaced with the next closest thing.

There is a difference between a "private label" and an "exclusive brand" in consumer marketing. The difference is where the customer loyalty lies. With a private label, people will buy the private label over another brand because they are in the store and trust the retailer. With an exclusive brand, customers go to the store to_ follow _the brand. Private label brands generate sales by virtue of being in the store when people shop (i.e. algorithms driving Amazon customers to your product). Exclusive brands drive foot traffic to the shop in the first place (i.e. YOU driving traffic to Amazon).


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> As has been said, for some genres with high volume readers, Select can make sense. There is a large demographic of loyal Amazon customers who are ONLY going to go to Select for their books. And if your books fall into those reading patterns you can do well.


I don't really think that the majority of readers even know what select is. I am not even sure what is meant when that term is used most of the time. If someone says they are in KU, I understand that. But I am a KU subscriber.

Many of us just prefer to buy from Amazon because we have kindles. Indy, self published or trade published. Some publisher stuff is in KU too, not sure if that is also Select.

I see the Amazon imprints more as the store brands. Just me as a reader though. I know I can buy Montlake titles at Amazon, only Amazon as far as I know. I don't think any less for those authors. They include folks like Anne Stuart and Connie Brockway.

*************************************
I just noticed a bit, mind you just as a reader, there are some terms in this thread that tend to be a bit on the negative side. Describing KU readers and those authors that put books into it. I don't really get that. Somehow because I dare to pay money to read books, I am a Walmart shopper, as if something is wrong with that, a cheapskate, dollar store shopper, etc. And its used in a negative way. Somehow I am not premium, because I spend money on books? I am confused.

And yes, I have bought books that have been in KU. We are readers, we read books, We buy books, we borrow books. I don't care where or how I get them. I judge the book by the story, not what it costs me to get it. If I still think about what the book cost me a few pages in, you didn't do your job as an author. 

Now I am off putting on my walmart shirt and my Birkenstock and go to the store.  I might or might not buy something store brand.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I suspect that if you told Tracy Brogan that she wasn't building her brand, she'd laugh at you . . .

There are many ways to build a strong brand. My books are $4.99 and $5.99. I don't consider myself a dollar store brand. And I do seem to have extremely loyal readers who will read me across different series and subgenres. Select (and Montlake, and Crossing, and ACX, and Audible Studios, and Brilliance Audio--all Amazon enterprises) has been the thing that helped me build a strong brand from the start--brought me nearly instant visibility and kept me visible. So for me, it's worked, and it continues to work.

I did try going wide for 7 months. It was . . . not a success. I started out strong, and then it got WORSE, despite my putting more and more books in. Should I have kept making less money, in hopes that somehow, I'd catch on? I don't know. The difference between my last month wide and BORROWS/BONUS ALONE in my first month back in Select? Over $25,000. With 13 KDP books published--I'm not one of those with 40 books out there. That's a hard number to walk away from, no?

I just wrote this book that's really different for me, for example, in this new series that's very different for me. I do think that having it be in KU is helping a lot with establishing me in this series with such a different tone. As you can see, it's not tearing up the charts, but it ain't bad . . . and many of these readers don't normally read suspense. They're reading this book because it's me, and that's flattering. And it's the sign of a pretty strong brand.

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Close-Paradise-Idaho-ebook/dp/B010DQX0YI/

All that is completely anecdotal. Of course it is. That's "me only," my experience only. For others, other things will work better. I just don't think it's possible to generalize across all authors. I respect Russell's point of view, but every author has to consider his/her options and decide for him/herself. The "right" answer won't be the same for everybody. I'm pretty sure that, for now, this answer is right for me.


----------



## eswrite (Sep 12, 2014)

I haven't made a final decision, but I think soon (next period or next), I will switch to a hybrid KDPS-to-Wide approach, where:

a) My first in series are wide (non-KDPS) and perma-free
b) My next two or three in series are in KDPS at regular price
c) The rest (newest) in series are wide at regular price.

Right now I'm doing a + b, where b holds all my subsequent in-series titles in KDPS. I'm seeing a decline in both sales and pages read after a pretty encouraging first couple of months, which means, time to mix things up again.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I don't really think that the majority of readers even know what select is. I am not even sure what is meant when that term is used most of the time. If someone says they are in KU, I understand that. But I am a KU subscriber.
> 
> Many of us just prefer to buy from Amazon because we have kindles. Indy, self published or trade published. Some publisher stuff is in KU too, not sure if that is also Select.
> 
> ...


Hi, OP here--the word "cheapen" has a pejorative or negative connotation, it's true. But I didn't mean to cast aspersions or judgement on Select or those who publish in it. Basically to me it's more a notion of Costco. You can't shop at Costco unless you're a member. You pay a fee, you get a membership.

Now, Costco does sell good stuff--and it's reasonably priced. But it's still Costco. And the Costco brand for good or for ill has a certain kind of cheap-er image among the general public.

So some people might see Costco as "bargain" or "reasonably priced," and others might see Costco as "cheap." For example, you buy a pair of jeans. It has the Costco brand, the Kirkland label. So you're wearing a pair of jeans that clearly come from Costco. You throw a dinner party and you serve Kirkland wine. Your guests all think: "Ah. Costco."

Now, are the jeans or the wine BAD? No. They may objectively be better, by whatever metric, than Levi or [insert pricey French vintner]. But it's Costco. And Costco again for good or for ill has a patina of "low price."

My bigger point is: once you have that Costco thing going on with your own brand, what happens if pray tell you don't want to sell at Costco exclusively any more? Say, you make chocolate. You sell chocolate only at Costco because that's what Costco's terms demand. The bars are right next to the Kirklands chocolate. But then you decide you want to branch out and sell at Wegmans, Martin's, higher-end customers basically. Even though you're doing ok on volume unit sales, you think with your high quality you can raise your price and make more income even with fewer sales.

Will the customers say, "Hmm, I know that brand. Costco. And now they want x dollars more? For the same chocolate? What?"

That's what I mean by cheapen your brand.


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I can only guess that it's unlikely Joe or Jane Reader looks at books in KU or Select and thinks "cheap". If they're anything like me or others who've posted about their KU buying/reading experiences, they're more like "YAY! More authors I can try out through KU for the same monthly price!" and then borrow a ton of books and buy the ones we liked enough to buy in addition to borrow.



John Twipnook said:


> My bigger point is: once you have that Costco thing going on with your own brand, what happens if pray tell you don't want to sell at Costco exclusively any more? Say, you make chocolate. You sell chocolate only at Costco because that's what Costco's terms demand. The bars are right next to the Kirklands chocolate. But then you decide you want to branch out and sell at Wegmans, Martin's, higher-end customers basically. Even though you're doing ok on volume unit sales, you think with your high quality you can raise your price and make more income even with fewer sales.


So to infer...Apple and Nook and Smashwords and the other vendors out there besides Amazon are higher quality markets than Amazon? Or those that shop at places other than Amazon are higher-end customers? Amazon is Kmart and everyone else is Tiffany's?


----------



## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't see subscription models as any different than libraries. So long as a reader acquires a legal copy of my book, I don't care if they buy it, borrow it from the library, or read it as part of a subscription.
> 
> The problem with SELECT is that the exclusivity issue can stifle your brand, because you become a "private label" brand for Amazon.
> 
> ...


Best summation of KU ever


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> So to infer...Apple and Nook and Smashwords and the other vendors out there besides Amazon are higher quality markets than Amazon? Or those that shop at places other than Amazon are higher-end customers? Amazon is Kmart and everyone else is Tiffany's?


No...


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

John Twipnook said:


> Hi, OP here--the word "cheapen" has a pejorative or negative connotation, it's true. But I didn't mean to cast aspersions or judgement on Select or those who publish in it. Basically to me it's more a notion of Costco. You can't shop at Costco unless you're a member. You pay a fee, you get a membership.
> 
> Now, Costco does sell good stuff--and it's reasonably priced. But it's still Costco. And the Costco brand for good or for ill has a certain kind of cheap-er image among the general public.
> 
> ...


I know people that go out of their way to buy Costco brand stuff as they think its better. But I guess I am not enough of a "brand" shopper to be worthy.

This is what this feels like. You think Stephen King cared if I read his books from the library or from the Stephen King library? I belonged to that one back in Europe, I think they still have that.

It makes me think some authors only find readers worthy that only buy from expensive big brand stores. Really? I am not worthy because I shop where I can and some times in life stuff gets really tough and there is no money around. Yet, I still have books, I still love books.

I find this all very sad and elitist to be honest. Its not like I don't spend money on books, but because I also have subscriptions, some authors don't want me as a reader, as a fan of their work.

Its one thing to talk about how to brand yourself, its another story to look down on your readers for being costco shoppers, walmart shoppers, dollar store shoppers, etc. What do you guys care where we shop. We read your books. Legally. That not enough? Guess not. Sorry, but this just really bugs me, especially now.

I left reviews for books that touched me and got me through some really bad times and I got responses from the authors. They didn't ask me how much I paid for their book, where I bought it. They cared that they touched me.

I'll continue to read and pay for books by authors that "cheapen" their brand. And I'll have a heck of a time along the way. Thank you for giving me the stories, thank you for making things ok for a while in moments when things are not ok, thank you for making me smile, laugh, cry. Thank you for not judging.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I know people that go out of their way to buy Costco brand stuff as they think its better. But I guess I am not enough of a "brand" shopper to be worthy.
> 
> This is what this feels like. You think Stephen King cared if I read his books from the library or from the Stephen King library? I belonged to that one back in Europe, I think they still have that.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it's the late hour, but I think there's some emotional responses swirling re what's at bottom an economic discussion. It's about branding and perception. Not about if anybody is "cheap" or has cheap product. Can a brand be cheapened? Yes. There's no elitism there. It's just a fact. It happens to brands every day.

My original post respectfully requested an evidence-based debate re Select's benefits (or not) beyond income bump (or not). A rational debate about long-term economic brand benefit to Select enrollees.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Oh, and to answer the OP: Select has increased my income short-term for almost 3-1/2 years now, so that's almost getting to be long-term, isn't it?  

I mean, OK, maybe 10 years from now--but I'm 56. Just sayin'.


----------



## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't know why the OP feels the need to push this so hard. What Russell is saying and what the OP chooses to take from it seem to be different. I suggest that those who feel their "brand" is diminished and "cheapened" by being in Select withdraw from it, ensure none of their books are in libraries or sold at WalMart or Costco, and raise their prices to $9.99. If that is the sales model you wish to follow, go for it. But stop trying to tell me what to do or convince me that I should change the way I run my business. After four pages, I'm starting to get offended.


----------



## Erratic (May 17, 2014)

brkingsolver said:


> I don't know why the OP feels the need to push this so hard. What Russell is saying and what the OP chooses to take from it seem to be different. I suggest that those who feel their "brand" is diminished and "cheapened" by being in Select withdraw from it, ensure none of their books are in libraries or sold at WalMart or Costco, and raise their prices to $9.99. If that is the sales model you wish to follow, go for it. But stop trying to tell me what to do or convince me that I should change the way I run my business. After four pages, I'm starting to get offended.


Oh come now. I don't think anyone has specifically told you to do anything. Have a hot tea and take a break from the boards. It's good to hear differing opinions on this subject, because those of us with very few books to experiment with are curious to hear about the other side. Differing opinions, even those presented too strongly for your tastes, can help people in making their own choices.

And those of us who have already made our choices still find it an interesting read.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## AYClaudy (Oct 2, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I did try going wide for 7 months. It was . . . not a success. I started out strong, and then it got WORSE, despite my putting more and more books in. Should I have kept making less money, in hopes that somehow, I'd catch on? I don't know. The difference between my last month wide and BORROWS/BONUS ALONE in my first month back in Select? Over $25,000. With 13 KDP books published--I'm not one of those with 40 books out there. That's a hard number to walk away from, no?
> 
> I just wrote this book that's really different for me, for example, in this new series that's very different for me. I do think that having it be in KU is helping a lot with establishing me in this series with such a different tone. As you can see, it's not tearing up the charts, but it ain't bad . . . and many of these readers don't normally read suspense. They're reading this book because it's me, and that's flattering. And it's the sign of a pretty strong brand.
> 
> ...


That definitely sounds like the right answer for you! I appreciate you sharing the numbers like that, it's really added to the discussion and given me more to think over!! Like you said it won't be the same for everyone but it's nice to see hard numbers from someone who's done both!


----------



## Jeff Hughes (May 4, 2012)

My guess is that Select benefits authors more because of its discoverability advantages, than because KU subscribers can borrow instead of buy. 

And I think the other premise (there are two, somewhat conflated in this thread) - that a lower price point somehow sensitizes readers to that tranche and they become unwilling to buy at a higher price, remains very questionable.  Hugh Howey struggled with that very thing, the early Wool titles priced at $0.99 and Hugh wondering if making Wool5 $2.99 would kill it out of the gate.  AFAIK, the higher price didn't.

I know, as a reader who buys lots of books, that up to a certain point - say eight or ten bucks for ebooks, double that for paper - I'm just not price sensitive at all.  For me, it's all about the title itself.  How good the story is.  How well-crafted the words.

Just like it's always been.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Jeff Hughes said:


> My guess is that Select benefits authors more because of its discoverability advantages, than because KU subscribers can borrow instead of buy.
> 
> And I think the other premise (there are two, somewhat conflated in this thread) - that a lower price point somehow sensitizes readers to that tranche and they become unwilling to buy at a higher price, remains very questionable. Hugh Howey struggled with that very thing, the early Wool titles priced at $0.99 and Hugh wondering if making Wool5 $2.99 would kill it out of the gate. AFAIK, the higher price didn't.
> 
> ...


Romance readers, because they buy MANY books, tend to be the most price-sensitive. $4.99 is often mentioned as an upper limit beyond which they will only buy their very favorites, and $3.99 is preferred. So this will differ by genre. In romance, $4.99 is quite a pricey book. In thrillers, $4.99 is a cheap book. But romance readers buy many more books. Revenue is price x units, so in a genre where you sell more units, the readers' price sensitivity isn't as big an issue.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Atunah said:


> I know people that go out of their way to buy Costco brand stuff as they think its better. But I guess I am not enough of a "brand" shopper to be worthy.
> 
> This is what this feels like. You think Stephen King cared if I read his books from the library or from the Stephen King library? I belonged to that one back in Europe, I think they still have that.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with everything you said.

Just read this entire thread. When you try to define a group of authors as having "cheapened" their brand, you're making a statement about their readers as well and you're likely to get some strong kickback from that.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2015)

P.J. Post said:


> I understand your premise, and it might hold true for vacuum cleaners, laundry detergent or other consumer goods, but not with books. The comparison isn't valid - because Art. I respect ***** and almost always agree with her, but not about the private label brand nature of Amazon exclusive authors. Private label brands can't take their marbles and go play somewhere else, authors can - every 90 days. They also can't spread their product mix over multiple distribution channels like authors can.


Can they?

Legally, sure, an author in Select can leave Select at any time. There is nothing physically to stop them (FYI: the same is actually true with a lot of private label brands...those products are made by third-party companies, not the retailers, and are negotiated every two to three years. And the same company can make different PLBs for different retailers, just like authors can use pen names to publish outside of Select).

But in _practical terms_, how many authors who established their sales through Select have successfully moved out of Select? We don't hear many of those stories. We do hear about authors who were _already successful _going into Select and getting more so (i.e. exclusive branding) but not often do we hear about people starting in Select later leaving Select and doing better.

I think some people are misconstruing my argument. I am not placing a value judgment on PL at all. This isn't 1985 where the store brands were all in white boxes with black lettering and contained watered-down versions of the brand names. There are some really quality PL products out there because stores use them to build their own brands. This has nothing to do with being "cheap." In 2015, PLBs are big business for a lot of reasons.

It is a matter of where the brand loyalty is. With PLBs, the loyalty is with the RETAILER. With independent brands, the loyalty is with the brand. It is the difference between "Amazon customers are finding my book on Amazon thanks to Amazon's algorithms" versus "People are going to Amazon specifically to buy my book." If your sales are dependent on Amazon algorithms; if a change to Amazon's algorithms causes your sales to plummet; you are a PLB.

And again, this isn't a VALUE judgment. It is a business decision people make. My point is people should at least acknowledge and understand this difference.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

John Twipnook said:


> Hi, OP here--the word "cheapen" has a pejorative or negative connotation, it's true. But I didn't mean to cast aspersions or judgement on Select or those who publish in it. Basically to me it's more a notion of Costco. You can't shop at Costco unless you're a member. You pay a fee, you get a membership.
> 
> Now, Costco does sell good stuff--and it's reasonably priced. But it's still Costco. And the Costco brand for good or for ill has a certain kind of cheap-er image among the general public.
> 
> ...


Or, you could compare it to Netflix, which is a cheap way to watch movies and television shows. Does that mean their stuff that is only available on Netflix isn't as good a quality as something on broadcast television? Hmmm...let's see, there is House of Cards, Orange is the New Black, Bloodline, Daredevil...


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Unrelated, but Timothy, that cover for _Hire a Hero_ rocks. I love how the splash of red makes it pop.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

we're taking a look at this thread which seems to have derailed somewhat late last night. I'll reopen it shortly after catching up.

Thanks.

*EDIT: I've done some pruning and I'm going to reopen this thread. As we review the thread, additional editing may be done.

Note that referring to KU readers as "coupon clippers" and "the cheapskate crowd" as has been done within this thread, either through quoting others or as original comments, is going to make readers respond, understandably enough.

Readers have weighed in with their reasons for being in KU and with information about their buying patterns. And dismissing those reader comments as emotional and invalid is impolite at best and in a discussion which, frankly, is about reader reaction to pricing/KU, kind of surprising to me.

The interaction between writers and their target audience is one of the strengths of KBoards as far as I'm concerned. You may not agree. That's fine. But we still require civility here. Members are free to ignore posts. They are not free to insult posters. C'mon folks.

I'm going to reopen the thread. Please, peace on earth, folks.*

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

eswrite said:


> I haven't made a final decision, but I think soon (next period or next), I will switch to a hybrid KDPS-to-Wide approach, where:
> 
> a) My first in series are wide (non-KDPS) and perma-free
> b) My next two or three in series are in KDPS at regular price
> ...


Only thing I would do is be very careful with this type of plan, you may alienate readers on other platforms if they can get your first book but the next few aren't available in a series. Last thing you want to do is make enemies. I'm also not sure a perma-free first book will do much for you as far as KU goes, you won't get any page reads for that only for the next couple, and if the ones after that are wide you're trying to turn KU readers into buyers which may not work.

I don't feel as if KU cheapens my brand at all, the extra sales ranking has actually helped show my books to more people that purchase them. So I am getting people in that are leaving reviews from just reading the book in KU, and getting paid from the program, all while getting the exposure and selling more books than I would have without making it into the charts. I don't care how a reader finds my books, or how they chose to pay for them, only that they do find them and are reading them.

Ku has done more for me than anything else I plan to support the program with all of my releases in 2016, right now that's on track to be another 8 books. Ask me this question again in 2017 and I'll tell you how it went.

If your a KU reader in this thread, thank you for picking up books in KU, if you read mine I hope you enjoy it!


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2015)

ebbrown said:


> Just read this entire thread. When you try to define a group of authors as having "cheapened" their brand, you're making a statement about their readers as well and you're likely to get some strong kickback from that.


I think the correct term we want is "brand dilution." Brand dilution is when a brand loses its power and/or becomes a commodity/interchangeable product.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I know people that go out of their way to buy Costco brand stuff as they think its better. But I guess I am not enough of a "brand" shopper to be worthy.
> 
> This is what this feels like. You think Stephen King cared if I read his books from the library or from the Stephen King library? I belonged to that one back in Europe, I think they still have that.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, Atunah, but after this you are no longer allowed to refer to yourself as just a reader. You are a writer. Maybe not a published writer, but you are now obligated to own the title writer. Are we clear?


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

PhoenixS said:


> I'm sorry, Atunah, but after this you are no longer allowed to refer to yourself as just a reader. You are a writer. Maybe not a published writer, but you are now obligated to own the title writer. Are we clear?


I've often thought Atunah sells herself a bit short on her writing skills.   

FWIW, as long as authors put out quality books -- well written, well edited, professional production of cover and formatting -- I'm not likely to think about whether I paid $10 or $15 or whether I got 'em for a buck or two, or didn't pay anything at all. I have been keeping track on GR, though, and have some data that covers the last couple of years. I have to make note as soon as I get the book, though, or else I'll forget where I got it. I've several times gone to GR to post a review and realize I completely forgot that it was a book I'd bought a while back or borrowed last month, or came from the library. 

Initially, I was mostly BUYING books -- and in the early heady days of kindle, lots of books that I might otherwise have had to pay $6 to $7 for (as paperbacks) were showing up as FREE! Whoa! Free books! AWESOME!

I quickly learned to be a bit more discerning because I began to realize that I was picking up some books mostly because: FREE  Sadly, that's what many of them were worth.  In fact, some were overpriced at $0.00. 

That's changed over the last 8 years, though. Sure, there are still some real duds floating around -- but they're pretty easy to avoid. Based on my records, here's how I've acquired the books I've read over the last year or so.

I've been borrowing books via KOLL/KU for a year or so now -- at least one a month since they started KOLL. Out of KOLL/KU, there have been 3 of 15 (that goes back to when KOLL started) that I didn't finish. But the other 12 have been mostly 4 stars. With KOLL, I'd get one a month; with KU, which I've just started, I get pretty much as many as I want. HOWEVER when it was KOLL (for me) I made sure to READ the book each month so I could borrow the next, 'cause that was how it worked. Now, with KU, I'll be honest: I'm not sure I'll be so vigilant about that.

I've also been getting one a month free through the Kindle First program since it started. Of the Kindle first books I've read (9 of 17 -- again going back to the start of the program) all have been at least 3 stars except one which I didn't finish. I try to pick a book every month -- there have been a couple of months where they've allowed 2. They're Amazon imprint titles and all end up in KU once they're officially released, so in the cases where there are two that look good, I get one and put the other on my KOLL/KU wishlist. But I don't always get to these right away, as is pretty clear from the numbers.

***In both of the above cases, I've found new favorite authors and now bother to BUY their books rather than just borrowing them.***

I also get 'free' books from the library -- unless you count that I'm paying for 'em with my property taxes.  I do this frequently with 'best seller' titles that look good, but not good enough to pay $12 or $14 for when they're released. I'm a member of 3 different libraries so almost always at least one of them will get it in their catalog. I generally have to get on a wait list, but that's not a big deal. If it was something I really REALLY wanted to read NOW -- then I probably would judge it worth paying the release price for. Of the 19 I've gotten from the library since I started keeping track on GR, only 2 have been DNF -- with a pat on the back that I'd not actually spent money on 'em. 

Of the rest of the 100+ books I've read this year -- probably around 80 -- all were purchases via Amazon. These are sometimes titles I happen upon in my browsing here or elsewhere, and sometimes things I've specifically gone looking for. I'll generally pay $2 to $5 for an author I've never heard of and up to $7 or $8 for a book that I'd wishlisted on release that never came to my library. A very few are favorite authors/next in a favorite series, and I have been known to spend up to $12 for those. When I do that, I read 'em right away!

I used to pre-order favorites, but have stopped that unless I see a pre-order price that's a bargain; otherwise I just wishlist 'em. In short, I'm aware of prices and that there are a lot of very good books available for a very good price. I'm also smart enough to know how to vet so that I don't get too many that aren't worth my time. AND, once it's on my kindle, I rarely think about how it got there -- as I said, until I go back to GR to note I read it and write a short review, I haven't thought about whether it was bought or borrowed. At least once I got a reminder about a library book I'd borrowed that it was due back in a couple of days -- I'd not even started it. 

After all that thinking and analysis, I guess this is my conclusion: For me, I know that there are books I will like via any of a number of conduits -- KU/KOLL/Kindle First, Local library, Purchase. There are also books in each category that I'll be disappointed in and may not finish. It's probably slightly more likely that a book that's borrowed or free will be a DNF, but that's mostly because, as noted, I don't tend to pay for books that I'm not pretty sure I'm going to like, and aren't available elsewhere. I do experiment a bit more when there's no actual cash on the line.  There have been a few, though, that I thought I'd really like, paid full price for the book, and was severely disappointed.  Fortunately, doesn't happen often. One particular book I'm thinking of -- well, THAT author is definitely a 'brand' that I'll not buy any more!


----------

