# Low-priced Indies - Worth the risk?



## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

I love paying $0.99-2.99 for a good book. But I really HATE reading an otherwise good book that is marred by typos (no proof-reading), inconsistencies (poor editing) and poor flow (also poor editing). For me, they can ruin what would otherwise be a great reading experience. I'm starting to be more hesitant about automatically downloading those tempting low-priced books because they seem to offer a greater risk of aggravation.

For those who say, "You get what you pay for," how much do I need to pay to expect a well-crafted, well-presented work? How much does it add to the cost? I'm willing to hate those faceless, money-grubbing "publishers," but I'm starting to yearn for more product of the editors who work for them.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

There are gobs and gobs of good indie books out there. Out of the last 200 books I have read, I would easily say 195 of them were indie, and priced anywhere from $0.99-$5.99. You can get great books at fantastic prices. 
As this thread may end up getting moved to the Book Corner, tell us what genres you like, and I bet you will have tons of recommendations.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2011)

Nahhhh!  

To make a more substantive comment: I recommend that you sample regardless of what you buy. I recently bought The Windup Girl and it had an absurd number of obvious typos in it. You just never know, but checking out a sample will give you a good indication.


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## Domothy (Nov 28, 2010)

If the books have, say, at least 4 stars then I will gladly take the plunge. I like to say that if I get an hours worth of reading time per pound that I've spent then I'm a happy chappy.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

I know there are tons of good indie books out there, and I know I can easily find a lousy book from a well-known publisher. However, it seems that I'm inherently accepting a larger risk of poor quality, in return for lower cost and (perhaps) more originality. I suppose it's like choosing an unknown family-run restaurant instead of a chain. 

But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

foreverjuly said:


> Nahhhh!
> 
> To make a more substantive comment: I recommend that you sample regardless of what you buy. I recently bought The Windup Girl and it had an absurd number of obvious typos in it. You just never know, but checking out a sample will give you a good indication.


That's a good point, foreverjuly, although I've found that they usually get worse towards the end. Presumably that's because the beginning gets reworked more often and then the book gets kicked out the door (finally!) as soon as the last word gets put on the page.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2011)

GBear said:


> That's a good point, foreverjuly, although I've found that they usually get worse towards the end. Presumably that's because the beginning gets reworked more often and then the book gets kicked out the door (finally!) as soon as the last word gets put on the page.


There's some validity to this. I suppose a clean beginning can get a little worse and still be tolerable while a poor beginning is unlikely to get better. Let me say that I thoroughly share your distaste for typos. I'll admit that it's extremely hard to eliminate them completely in my own work, but seeing them anywhere always feels like a pinprick.



GBear said:


> I know there are tons of good indie books out there, and I know I can easily find a lousy book from a well-known publisher. However, it seems that I'm inherently accepting a larger risk of poor quality, in return for lower cost and (perhaps) more originality. I suppose it's like choosing an unknown family-run restaurant instead of a chain.
> 
> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


To answer your question fully, you should not under any circumstances "grin and bear" a poorly-edited book. Various indie authors have various methods of editing (and some do try to skimp), but I don't think there is a direct relationship between the amount of editing/the peripheral non-writing work and the price. A lot of authors will choose to price the first book in a series at .99 regardless of how much work into it. Then there are novels in which the length, either too long or too short, plays a factor in price. How well a book sells will also cause people to experiment.

Name a genre and I'll give you a recommendation.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

GBear said:


> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


I'm lucky enough to be an indie author with access to a professional editor, but as foreverjuly said, you should never expect to have to read a poorly-produced work. Writers who think that's acceptable aren't doing justice to their craft.

I would just encourage you to leave feedback. One of the real marvels of Kindle publishing is how easy, quick, and cheap it is to fix a broken book. So your feedback can either make the book better, or warn off other readers. Either way, you've done the world a service.


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## bwbollom (Jul 30, 2010)

I try to remember to download samples first. It's usually enough to know whether I'll enjoy it enough to pay or if it has too many blatant errors and is not in a style I'm interested in reading. 

I made the mistake recently of just taking the plunge and buying an indy book...it covered a topic I was very interested in and had read other books about. It had good reviews and I thought I'd like it just fine. After reading the first 10-20pages, I just couldn't take anymore of the author's smarmy attitude and writing style. I immediately emailed Kindle CS and asked for a refund. They had no problem doing this. 

So yes, it's definitely worth the risk...I will just make sure to download and read samples first in the future. But even beyond that, knowing that Kindle CS is good about allowing returns makes me even more willing to try new stuff! That's the only time I've ever had to return a book and hopefully will be the only time


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

BTackitt said:


> There are gobs and gobs of good indie books out there. Out of the last 200 books I have read, I would easily say 195 of them were indie, and priced anywhere from $0.99-$5.99. You can get great books at fantastic prices.
> As this thread may end up getting moved to the Book Corner, tell us what genres you like, and I bet you will have tons of recommendations.


Didn't you review a bunch of them? I know you're reviewing for Red Adept now, but wasn't it you who had a blog of reviews (I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it...maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Or not thinking. Or thinking too hard.)


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

I think if you check out the reviews and read through a sample, you should get a general idea of what you're getting into.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

GBear said:


> I know there are tons of good indie books out there, and I know I can easily find a lousy book from a well-known publisher. However, it seems that I'm inherently accepting a larger risk of poor quality, in return for lower cost and (perhaps) more originality. I suppose it's like choosing an unknown family-run restaurant instead of a chain.
> 
> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


Sure some of us hire editors. But just saying that isn't a guarantee either and since all books SHOULD be edited, there's no point in shouting "Mine has been edited!" Editing skills vary as widely as writing skills. I know at least two authors who spent well over twice what I did on editing and they still had typos...so it's a mixed bag.

As someone else said, sample, sample, sample. Read reviews. There's a couple of good review sites that review indie work. If you follow some of them you're likely to be steered towards the better edited stuff.

You can't rely on us writers to tell you whether our stuff is well-edited because every single one of us believes the work is polished when it goes out the door. We may find out later we were wrong, but I can't name anyone who purposely put crap out--and knew it at the time.


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## AlexSeverin (Feb 14, 2011)

I agree that downloading the sample and reading it first is a good indicator. And if there's no sample, think twice before you buy. The sample will also give you a decent idea of whether you like the writing style too.

And yes! Of course people should take a chance on 'indies.' A lot of us - probably most - are not doing it because of years of rejection and not being able to get published by the traditionals. And even then, that's not proof of a good or bad writer anyway. We're doing it because we want to. And because we _can_. Either way, I don't think non-writing readers care. They just want good books. Period.

~ Alex.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm reading Inevitable by Jason right now.  It's a great book, and I haven't found a single error.  The story is pulling me in, and I'm enjoying the fresh voice.

I've picked up quite a few indie books, all between $.99 and $2.99, and have enjoyed many of them.

Definitely pick up samples before buying, and enjoy the savings!

Vicki


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## Adria Townsend (Feb 24, 2011)

That's a great point that returns are possible, so there's little risk.  But still it's annoying to have to waste the time it takes to do that.  And I agree, editing and reviews aren't always a sure sign of a good thing. I've read traditionally published romances from Harlequin that had gaping plot holes.  I had my book edited (without it affecting the price), but it's great to have reader feedback if they spot something that gets missed.  Years ago I found a typo in Webster's Dictionary and wrote the publisher.  They actually sent me a letter promising to fix it... 

And reviews and recommendations?  Every movie my brother-in-law ever recommended to me I couldn't stand.  That's why I priced my book at 99 cents.  For someone to take a chance on an unknown, they have to feel they have nothing (or little) to lose.  
Best, 
J. S.


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## LRGiles (Apr 28, 2010)

foreverjuly said:


> I recommend that you sample regardless of what you buy.


Agreed. A quick sample is very telling, whether the book is .99 or 9.99.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

All I can do is echo the very good points already made. You have access to reader reviews, free samples, and refunds. And these all revolve around a $1 purchase. I'd say the "risk" was as close to zero as you can get. 

When I'm prowling for books, I just download samples left and right, and then later I sit down to read them all. If they're bad, I delete. If they're good, I buy. Never been disappointed by my system yet!


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> Didn't you review a bunch of them? I know you're reviewing for Red Adept now, but wasn't it you who had a blog of reviews (I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it...maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Or not thinking. Or thinking too hard.)


I have reviewed many, at Amazon. not on my own site. the only site I have is one I had to create for a computer class, where all I did was track what books I read every month for a year. https://sites.google.com/site/oneyearofreading/home

I didn't post September's numbers for that year, but I totalled 308 books during the whole time period.


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## RChaffee (Mar 3, 2011)

I'd like to put in my 2 cents on the price point. A cheap price doesn't always mean a cheap book.
Like someone earlier said, not all of us are self publishing as a result of rejection. I for one, didn't even try a, "Real Publisher" because I can't see the benefit in having an individual reject or accept my work, when I could have the whole of Amazon reject or accept it. That said, I would like to do what I can to avoid rejection. As a new author, I'm untried, untested, unproven, so why should someone pull the trigger and try my book? One reason is because I offer it up for a cheap price, and I hope that someone will take a chance. It's not because I didn't put a lot of work into it, that's for sure.


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## tim290280 (Jan 11, 2011)

I don't think you can say indie books are somehow the only titles at fault from poor editing standards. I've read plenty of bestsellers and major publishing company products that read like a first draft with no attempt at spell checking. The worst one I have read was a David Baldacci book, a NYT bestseller!!

IMO it isn't so much what you pay for but how professional the producers of the book are. An indie author has just as much chance of being professional as anyone else, and I think that all authors should be proud of their work and put the best possible effort into producing it to a high standard.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

I think every writer has a responsibility to make their work as professional and error-free as possible, no matter how much they're selling it for--or even if it's free.  After I've finished the final proof on my books and declared them ready for the world, if I find a typo or error in them, or have one pointed out to me, I die a little bit.  I feel that bad.  I hate seeing indie books marked as something like 'first edition (unedited)', to me that's unacceptable.  Writers should not be using readers to find their mistakes.  You write the best book you can and then you make sure it's as perfect as you can get it--yes, typos and errors will slip through, but I can't remember the last book I read that didn't have at least one.


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## TheRiddler (Nov 11, 2010)

Personally I'm not sure what qualifies as an 'indie' but the majority of books on my Kindle are low-priced (sub £3). I hate paying 'normal price' for something I will never actually own, and I love that I now get to experience books and authors I would never have read in bookshops.

Maybe I've been lucky but I've not come across any atrocious editing / typos. Sure, I've found the odd spelling mistake, and the odd formatting error, but nothing that distracts me too much from the story.

Twenty Dollar Bill - Elmore Hammes
Detective Jackson series: LJ Sellers
End of Marking Time: CJ West

are three books I can easily recommend without much thought. No idea if these are 'indie' but they were certainly 'low-priced' (I don;t like calling them cheap, it has negative connotations)


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## robins777 (Aug 10, 2010)

Since getting my Kindle I have only bought Indie books because they are reasonably priced and good value. I find that here in the UK I can get almost any other book I want at a cheaper price than the Kindle version so I buy the DTB version instead. Of the Indie books I have purchased all but two has been well edited and without ony typos. The two which had mistakes were replaced by Amazon when an update was available.


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## Painter John (Mar 6, 2011)

Personally I spend a lot of time re-reading my work, because typos are part and parcel of narrative writing, and as you say it does spoil the experience.  

I can see why authors rush to publish their work, it is an exciting moment, and once you have written something you want it instantly out there for all to see!

I suggest as previous replies have that you skim samples, see if formating and proofing is to a standard you like.  You can't expect indie books to be flawless, as you say its a compromise for originality, but I think good Indie authors should and at times do produce great work, its just about vetting the good from the bad, and tolerating a smaller number of mainly format based errors.

- Painter John


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## Christine Kersey (Feb 13, 2011)

For a $2.99 book I'll usually check out the sample before I spend the money. Sometimes even for a $0.99 book, although that's less likely. I recently finished reading a book where I enjoyed the sample and paid $2.99 and as I got further into the story I found several mistakes where the author used the wrong spelling of a word (waste instead of waist, for example) which I found annoying. But since I was enjoying the story overall, I finished reading it. But I might hesitate to buy other works by this author.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

The fact that you can read a sample before buying means you can try new authors with virtually no risk. I've run into very few stories that disintegrate as you get into them. Usually, you can tell if you'll like them within the first few pages.

So, in fact, I've been buying a lot of indie authors. I find their voices more unique and compelling and less edited to death to fit a specific mold. I went through a period where I just couldn't find any books I wanted to read, and then I got my Kindle and voila! Lots of things, now, that catch my eye.  I don't typically like the NY Times Bestsellar list and it seemed like those "kinds of books" were all you could get from the traditional bookstores.

Regarding flaws versus unflawed--my only response there would be, "Show me an unflawed book." Even those from the NY publishers have serious flaws and formatting problems. I sort of got in a huff the other day when I was browsing review sites and found one where the reviewer said s/he would only read until s/he found 15 flaws and then s/he would stop. It made me wonder how many traditionally published books s/he managed to finish? Why hold indie authors to a standard that even NY can't match?

I can't remember the last "flawless" book I read. Maybe because there's never been one. Copy editors are human too. Believe it or not.
Viva la indies!


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I'm reading Inevitable by Jason right now. It's a great book, and I haven't found a single error. The story is pulling me in, and I'm enjoying the fresh voice.
> 
> Vicki


Thanks for the shout out, Vicki!


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## zizekpress (Mar 9, 2011)

GBear said:


> I love paying $0.99-2.99 for a good book. But I really HATE reading an otherwise good book that is marred by typos (no proof-reading), inconsistencies (poor editing) and poor flow (also poor editing). For me, they can ruin what would otherwise be a great reading experience. I'm starting to be more hesitant about automatically downloading those tempting low-priced books because they seem to offer a greater risk of aggravation.
> 
> For those who say, "You get what you pay for," how much do I need to pay to expect a well-crafted, well-presented work? How much does it add to the cost? I'm willing to hate those faceless, money-grubbing "publishers," but I'm starting to yearn for more product of the editors who work for them.


As a reader, I'd say the odds are against an indie book being good. Depends on your standards, I suppose.

As a small press, I'd say ignore the advice above otherwise our press is dead in the water.

Seriously, it's tough, because percentages will say that around 80-90% of indie writers aren't very good writers. Forget typos, the actual story is the problem. Perhaps the percentage I give is too high, but in our experience it's very difficult to find an indie book which is really well-written, or fresh/different in some way. And we're supporters of indie books, because now and then you do find something that you'd never find in a traditionally published book...which is risk/gamble/passion.

Do others here have the same feelings or is the percentage of bad indie books lower?


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> Seriously, it's tough, because percentages will say that around 80-90% of indie writers aren't very good writers. Forget typos, the actual story is the problem. Perhaps the percentage I give is too high, but in our experience it's very difficult to find an indie book which is really well-written, or fresh/different in some way. And we're supporters of indie books, because now and then you do find something that you'd never find in a traditionally published book...which is risk/gamble/passion.
> 
> Do others here have the same feelings or is the percentage of bad indie books lower?


I don't think there is any actual data supporting your statistics, but those percentages may be useful because most readers won't like 90% of any of the books out there that are written. Readers have always needed to go through the same interpretive process of using information from reviews/friends/blurbs to choose books they will like before they read them, and indie books require the same consideration and hold an equal likelihood of payoff. We naturally gravitate toward books we are more likely to enjoy, and regardless of our preferred genres or styles, we're likely to find great books whether they are indie or traditionally pubbed as long as we carefully and thoughtfully hold true to our preferences.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

TheRiddler said:


> Twenty Dollar Bill - Elmore Hammes
> Detective Jackson series: LJ Sellers
> End of Marking Time: CJ West
> 
> are three books I can easily recommend without much thought. No idea if these are 'indie' but they were certainly 'low-priced' (I don;t like calling them cheap, it has negative connotations)


LJ Sellers and CJ West are definitely indie. I've read _The End of Marking Time_, and enjoyed it as well.



zizekpress said:


> Do others here have the same feelings or is the percentage of bad indie books lower?


I have no idea what the actual percentages may be. But what I _do _ know is that sampling before you buy, significantly decreases the percentage of getting a bad book. And the process only takes an additional 60 seconds.

I've read so many good indie books that I rarely read traditionally pubbed books now. The gain in potential quality is minimal and rarely justifies the higher price. Again, this is _if_ you sample first. YMMV.


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## coffeetx (Feb 12, 2011)

I say yes they are.  My love for reading has been revitalized with my recent discovery of indie authors available through the kindle.  To be honest, if I had caught on to that sooner I would have been more motivated to buy my kindle sooner which I just got this Christmas.  Having said that, I am a voracious reader of customer reviews.  Oddly enough, I think I love reading reviews almost as much as I love reading books.  I got hooked on amazon many years ago due to the customer reviews.  I am the same way with movies. I would read a user review any day over some professional movie critic.  So I read reviews before purchasing.  I can honestly say I have never bought a book that did not have any reviews.  Most books littered with typos will have tons of reviews stating this fact.  If people criticize the book for the story that's not something to necessarily deter me b/c that's more subjective.  However, grammar is pretty straight up.  If that's your pet peeve then invest some time in reading reviews and that will be made clear to you in advance.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> As a reader, I'd say the odds are against an indie book being good. Depends on your standards, I suppose.
> 
> As a small press, I'd say ignore the advice above otherwise our press is dead in the water.
> 
> ...


Funny thing, but an awful lot of readers disagree with you and it's not just Joe Konrath they're buying by the tens of thousands. Victorine Lieske--indie author--on the NYT ebook best seller list TWO WEEKS IN A ROW. Yeah, there is the tremendously popular Amanda Hocking. Well, I don't love her work but I don't love that genre. Then there are literally dozens of other indie authors who are selling in the thousands a month--something that DARN FEW of those traditionally published authors manage to do.

By the way, indie published does NOT necessarily mean unedited. A lot of us have our novels edited and some of us happen to have a background as editors ourselves.

I judge indie novels EXACTLY the same way I judge other novels. I look at the cover, I read the blurb, I look at the reviews, and then if I'm still interested, I download the sample. I also look at the price.

If that's good and the price is reasonable then I buy it.

And 90% of the time what I am buying is from an Indie Author these days. Sure I'll pop whatever it costs for that new GRR Martin novel--but darn seldom. There are too many good novels out there for under 5 bucks.

Edit: A couple more points to consider: Many of those indie published novels are from midlist novelists' backlists that the authors have retrieved their rights to, so they went through the traditional process (*cough* I'll restrain myself from discussing editing at publishing houses), and many are novels which established agents considered good enough to try to sell but were unable to because selling to publishing houses has become like wedging that camel through the eye of a needle.

Just a few points you might want to consider before you make those extremely blanket statements.


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## William BK. (Mar 8, 2011)

> I judge indie novels EXACTLY the same way I judge other novels. I look at the cover, I read the blurb, I look at the reviews, and then if I'm still interested, I download the sample. I also look at the price.


Ditto. I don't really care whether the book is published by Harper or by Joe Schmoe on the street. If it's appealing and triggers the right responses when I check out the sample, then I'll buy it.

Frankly, I can be a bit of a grammar-Nazi and even one error can rub me the wrong way. The problem is not exclusively that of indie publishing either, as I have been encountering more and more books from big publishers that have been poorly edited. I would rather spend .99c or $2.99 on something with a few errors than $10-$25. For that price, I want something perfect--or as near as is humanly possible--which is why, I suppose, I've found myself gravitating more and more to indie novels since I got my Kindle last fall.


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## aaronpolson (Apr 4, 2010)

The sample is the thing, really.  I might buy 1 out of 10 books I sample, but I have no problem buying a 99 cent book from an "unknown".  Every author started as unknown to someone.  

(My high school students don't know who Peter Straub is...I guess some stay "unknown")


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the input, everyone. The common advice is to sample and read the reviews. And I certainly tend to do that, except not as much on the low-priced books because I'm not sure if I've encountered a "today-only" deal or if I can come back to it later. I tend to buy and/or sample in spurts, so I might not read a sample and choose whether or not to buy it until months after first encountering the book. As for reviews, there tend to be fewer on the indie books, and I figure the first x number of reviews are likely friends of the author, but it's still a good idea. I'll just tell myself to stop saying "what the heck" and hit the "Buy" button on the low-priced book, and instead purchase with the same care as the high-priced book.

I had an interesting offline discussion with a KB member/author who did "pre-publish" a "beta version" of his book at a low price. I didn't understand until I made the purchase that it was "beta," but the gist of our conversation was that it's not something I'd willingly do again. It was an otherwise very good book that was marred by errors that would presumably be caught in later editing. (Some obvious typos and name issues, but also some timeline and more subtle errors.) "Beta-testing" a mystery novel isn't like beta-testing software because the first experience is the only experience. The auther agreed that he wasn't going to repeat the experiment.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

GBear said:


> *I had an interesting offline discussion with a KB member/author who did "pre-publish" a "beta version" of his book at a low price.* I didn't understand until I made the purchase that it was "beta," but the gist of our conversation was that it's not something I'd willingly do again. It was an otherwise very good book that was marred by errors that would presumably be caught in later editing. (Some obvious typos and name issues, but also some timeline and more subtle errors.) "Beta-testing" a mystery novel isn't like beta-testing software because the first experience is the only experience. The auther agreed that he wasn't going to repeat the experiment.


Wow. I am of the opinion that you should never publish unless you feel the work is the best it can be. Putting a book out before it's ready is akin to literary suicide.

And you should *never* charge readers for a beta version. I can see why the author would not want to repeat that experience.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

foreverjuly said:


> To make a more substantive comment: I recommend that you sample regardless of what you buy. I recently bought The Windup Girl and it had an absurd number of obvious typos in it. You just never know, but checking out a sample will give you a good indication.


I agree.

There are some wonderful indie books out there for a low price, but there's also some utter dreck. Hate to say it, but it's true.

The best thing about self-publishing is that anyone can do it. The worst thing about self-publishing is that anyone can do it.

ALWAYS sample.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

zizekpress said:


> As a reader, I'd say the odds are against an indie book being good. Depends on your standards, I suppose.
> 
> As a small press, I'd say ignore the advice above otherwise our press is dead in the water.
> 
> ...


I agree that it's hard to say because I don't read 100 percent of what I look at by indies. I sample. Of those I sample, I'd guess I download half or add them to my To Be Bought. Of those I then read that were good, I'd say it was about 90 percent. But the sampling culls about half, sometimes because the writing isn't there or sometimes because the topic ends up not grabbing me. I find a lot of books from these boards and I'd have to say that authors participating here don't go for very long before being told if there are typos or other problems. If you're on KB, you're going to hear from someone sooner or later if you have mistakes or problems. That probably ups the number of good books you'll find here.

But I admit, there are far more GOOD indie books than I expected at the outset. There really are plenty of them (For me and my tastes.)


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

GBear said:


> I had an interesting offline discussion with a KB member/author who did "pre-publish" a "beta version" of his book at a low price. I didn't understand until I made the purchase that it was "beta," but the gist of our conversation was that it's not something I'd willingly do again. It was an otherwise very good book that was marred by errors that would presumably be caught in later editing. (Some obvious typos and name issues, but also some timeline and more subtle errors.) "Beta-testing" a mystery novel isn't like beta-testing software because the first experience is the only experience. The auther agreed that he wasn't going to repeat the experiment.


If I were you, I would strongly urge your friend to reconsider the practice of releasing "beta" material. That sounds like a huge recipe for disaster to me. People will be expecting a finished product when they fork over money, and they will judge it accordingly. If he is desperate to get out some unfinished material, utilizing a blog might be a better option.


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## monicaleonelle (Oct 7, 2010)

GBear said:


> I know there are tons of good indie books out there, and I know I can easily find a lousy book from a well-known publisher. However, it seems that I'm inherently accepting a larger risk of poor quality, in return for lower cost and (perhaps) more originality. I suppose it's like choosing an unknown family-run restaurant instead of a chain.
> 
> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


Personally, I have two editors, one proofreader, and a ton of beta readers. I'm also good at grammar, spelling, and punctuation already, so I edited the book many times over before other people even touched it.

My book is priced at $0.99 only because I have no readership and no traditional publishing house to help me get a readership. Otherwise, it's gotten great reviews, all from people I don't personally know who have found my book randomly or received it as a review copy.

Eventually, I'll charge more, but right now the pricing is a tactic to gain more readership. It's not indicative on how much I spent on editing and a cover design. I'd actually prefer to have it listed for free than for $0.99, but alas, Amazon won't let me.

I guess my point is don't judge a book by the price! You can get good books at low prices and bad books at high prices. Read reviews, try samples, and go with your gut about what you might like.

That said, don't feel like you have to "grin and bear it" just because you paid less. Return the book if you are dissatisfied and if you can. If I bought a pack of gum for $1 and I opened it and half the gum was already chewed, I would go back to the store and ask for a refund, despite the price I paid.


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## nicholaslasalla (Mar 5, 2011)

Well, I think that 99% of the people here will say yes, of course.  

The way a reader can sort through the rubbish and get to the good stuff is simply put in the product description and by taking a look at the free sample of the book.  If the writing is obviously subpar then I don't buy.  If it looks interesting and reads well, I will.

A good book is a good book is a good book, regardless of who published it.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

GBear said:


> I had an interesting offline discussion with a KB member/author who did "pre-publish" a "beta version" of his book at a low price. I didn't understand until I made the purchase that it was "beta," but the gist of our conversation was that it's not something I'd willingly do again. It was an otherwise very good book that was marred by errors that would presumably be caught in later editing. (Some obvious typos and name issues, but also some timeline and more subtle errors.) "Beta-testing" a mystery novel isn't like beta-testing software because the first experience is the only experience. The auther agreed that he wasn't going to repeat the experiment.


   
Wow, just, wow. That's what beta readers are for, and they do it for free (or for a fee, but absolutely never do they pay for the pleasure). and they absolutely know ahead of time that they're beta reading.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I had several reviewers comment on my grammar/editing (in a good way), and that a bit frustrating, because I think it speaks to reader expectations. That hurts all of us.


I've seen "This book was free of typos and grammatical issues" in a review before. It's sad, really, that people are starting to add that in their reviews.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

Amanda Brice said:


> I've seen "This book was free of typos and grammatical issues" in a review before. It's sad, really, that people are starting to add that in their reviews.


It's a little sad that we have to watch out for that sort of issue. But it's also nice that so many readers take good writing seriously and take the time to leave detailed feedback like that for others.


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## Cindi_LeeJm (Mar 3, 2011)

There are a lot of good indies out there who strategically price their book at $0.99 just to gain a better readership and seem more attractive to readers, and since I know that, the lower-priced books don't usually throw me off. That's a move bestselling author Jack Kilborn blogs about and he mentions how that has increased his sales a great deal--the price drop from $2.99 I mean. I always read samples first anyway before I buy an ebook and I think I can usually tell when it hasn't been edited or when it just isn't a good read for me. The price of an ebook doesn't turn me off. Higher doesn't necessarily mean "better", and lower doesn't necessarily mean awful. I personally used an editor and paid good money for it. The discount I offered for Read an Ebook Week really helped boost my sales and introduce new readers to me, so I've even lowered my price to $0.99 to continue to gain a broader readership after the week is over. But there are a lot of good indies out there, and I do enjoy checking them out.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

zizekpress said:


> ... I'd say the odds are against an indie book being good ...


I'd modify this; the odds are against ANY book being good. Remember Sturgeon's Revelation, "90% of everything is crud".


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## Julie Christensen (Oct 13, 2010)

Here is my unscientific experience.  I've read about ten indies since I got my Kindle.  I loved the first and really liked the second.  I felt okay about the rest.  They weren't amazing but they weren't bad at all, and reviews showed that many people loved them.  Plus, I never spent more than 1.99 and usually 99 cents.  None were terrible.  But as someone else here said, if you're worried, sample.  It's simple that way.


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## Cytheria (Mar 10, 2011)

I usually check the reviews for the book, if there are any, that's what I go by. For me, it's not so much spending the money on a book that isn't so great, but the time wasted reading a crappy indie book...and I don't like abandoning books halfway.


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm with those who say sample before you buy, no matter what the price. I'm picky about what I read, indie or not. In fact, I've bought books from big publishers and started reading only to discover that the story is worse than what I've seen of indie authors here. My expectations were higher and that might be coloring my opinion, making me harsher on the big publisher book, but it shouldn't matter. Always try before you buy.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

I heard all these sorts of arguments in the past when OpenSource was coming out and "commercial software" people were doing their best to crush it.


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## monicaleonelle (Oct 7, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> I heard all these sorts of arguments in the past when OpenSource was coming out and "commercial software" people were doing their best to crush it.


This is a fascinating analogy that gave me a new perspective on all of this. I used to be a software developer but didn't know about this because opensource was the norm by the time I was in the workforce (working at start-ups, of course). Thank you for this.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

monicaleonelle said:


> I used to be a software developer but didn't know about this because opensource was the norm by the time I was in the workforce (working at start-ups, of course). Thank you for this.


When was this? What sort of development work did you do (sorry, being nosy, I know  ). I remember great battle lines starting to being drawn up from the last 1980's to early 1990's, of course things really moved along by 1996 and the next 10 years was a constant fight for recognition. Once the likes of OpenOffice, Firefox, Ubuntu and in an interesting way, Google became entrenched it basically was the worst of the fight over, now for the most part OpenSource isn't seen as "Half ars*d, cr*p software made by Fat Freddy in his mother's basement".

There still is of course a lot of terrible opensource software out there, a billion "YetAnother" or "My..." but the good stuff now holds the rudder of the direction of the social perception (I love Inkscape, LyX, Ubuntu, Firefox, Chrome(ium) etc - couldn't live without them).

... sorry for the off-topic ...

Paul.


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## Tara Maya (Nov 4, 2010)

Sometimes I do just grab books and then after reading a little, decide not to continue. I have never returned a book. I actually don't know how.


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## monicaleonelle (Oct 7, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> When was this? What sort of development work did you do (sorry, being nosy, I know  ). I remember great battle lines starting to being drawn up from the last 1980's to early 1990's, of course things really moved along by 1996 and the next 10 years was a constant fight for recognition. Once the likes of OpenOffice, Firefox, Ubuntu and in an interesting way, Google became entrenched it basically was the worst of the fight over, now for the most part OpenSource isn't seen as "Half ars*d, cr*p software made by Fat Freddy in his mother's basement".
> 
> There still is of course a lot of terrible opensource software out there, a billion "YetAnother" or "My..." but the good stuff now holds the rudder of the direction of the social perception (I love Inkscape, LyX, Ubuntu, Firefox, Chrome(ium) etc - couldn't live without them).
> 
> ...


In the last five years... I'm in my late 20's  I can imagine the lines being drawn over OpenSource but don't have any recollection of that time. There is so much great OpenSource now, and even Wordpress and Drupal have spurred so much internet and business growth. It's quite amazing. Now, people expect code to work, OpenSource or not. I expect in a several years, the standards for books will go up and people will expect all indie novels to have been edited and proofread. (And hopefully they will be, for the most part )


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## tim290280 (Jan 11, 2011)

Steven L. Hawk said:


> Wow. I am of the opinion that you should never publish unless you feel the work is the best it can be. Putting a book out before it's ready is akin to literary suicide.
> 
> And you should *never* charge readers for a beta version. I can see why the author would not want to repeat that experience.


As one of your beta readers I'd hope not to be charged 

Seriously though, beta reading is essentially a form of editing akin to the writers groups. You wouldn't expect to charge your writer's group friends to read your book, as such I agree with your opinion Steve.

Also as a side note I'm 20% through Steve's new book which will be going to a professional editor after myself and the other beta's are done with it. At this stage I'm actually finding less typos and errors in this book than I found in JK Rowling's later *published* works. This is the sort of standard that good indie authors hold, they are proud of their work and want to make sure that it is at a professional level.

Personally when I end up finishing my book I can guarantee that there will be at least three editing phases after at least 2-3 drafts by myself. I am a professional editor, my wife is also (reviewing scientific papers), my sister isn't a pro but is also an editor (she only does it for friends), so I will be able to do this phase cheaply, but I will hold my work to no-less-a-standard than any publishing house.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Now I sample, and often don't make it past the first chapter. I try to think of it as browsing books in the store and reading a few pages, so I'm not really "reading" something until I get past the sample and buy.


I used to refuse to abandon a book but I got over that when I started writing seriously. Now I treat books like I'm an agent or editor, and sometimes won't even push past the first 3 pages.


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## ellicious (Mar 10, 2011)

They're worth the risk, after all its only $.99-$2.99. More than worth a few hours of enjoyment.


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## Steven L. Hawk (Jul 10, 2010)

tim290280 said:


> Also as a side note I'm 20% through Steve's new book which will be going to a professional editor after myself and the other beta's are done with it. At this stage I'm actually finding less typos and errors in this book than I found in JK Rowling's later *published* works. This is the sort of standard that good indie authors hold, they are proud of their work and want to make sure that it is at a professional level.


Thanks again for being a beta reader, Tim. And thanks for the kudos on the typos/errors. There are plenty still there, I'm sure. Every time I make a pass, I find less and less though. Hopefully, by the time it goes to the editor on April 1, 99.9% will have already been discovered and expunged.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

I had a textbook in college, and the author offered a dollar to anyone who found a typo, which he would correct in the next edition. It's a good motivator for an author to clean up his copy, and a method of correcting the (hopefully few) errors you missed.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Jon Olson said:


> I had a textbook in college, and the author offered a dollar to anyone who found a typo, which he would correct in the next edition. It's a good motivator for an author to clean up his copy, and a method of correcting the (hopefully few) errors you missed.


I remember a few of those - thanks for bringing that to the forefront of my mind again, I think i can actually make use of that concept.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Amanda Brice said:


> I've seen "This book was free of typos and grammatical issues" in a review before. It's sad, really, that people are starting to add that in their reviews.


Sad, perhaps, but since I'm getting to the point of doing the same with any trad-published books I review - "This book was free of OCR issues" - it strikes me more as a 'great leveller' atm than a stain on the indie standard. 

(I'm in the middle of Heinlein's 'Time Enough for Love', which - although nowhere near as bad as the reviews made it sound - does contain enough OCR errors that I've lost count)


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> It's a little sad that we have to watch out for that sort of issue. But it's also nice that so many readers take good writing seriously and take the time to leave detailed feedback like that for others.


I agree, and I'm a stickler for grammar, personally. However, I don't comment on good grammar in my reviews. I mean, it's SUPPOSED to be good. Similarly, when I'm telling friends about a new restaurant I don't tell them it was great because the food was cooked properly and I didn't get food poisoning. I will, however, comment on poor editing, just like I told my sis-in-law about the restaurant that brought my husband's pasta to the table and it was still crunchy. How the heck they managed that is beyond me


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## EchelonPress (Sep 30, 2010)

I have to weigh in on this as a publisher. I wish we could stop putting labels on publishers and authors. Indie, self-pubbed, micro, traditional. It simply muddies the water and it pretty much irrelevant at this point.

There are so many authors out there, of all status' who are published by a variety of houses, and many develop their own house. The industry has changed so much that we will NEVER be able to keep up or agree on what's what. Fact is, a book is a book is a book, whether it is print, eBook, audio, it's a book!

As for editing. We have a pretty strict editing guideline at Echelon, and yet with each person that edits a manuscript, the next editor i line finds something new. Our books go through at three three sets of eyes after the submission point. And there have been some that once they hit the market they still got complaints on typos. It is a losing battle, but I assure you that most authors and publishers work very hard to put out the cleanest possible books.

Editors have the same training as everyone else, English classes. I am not aware of any degree or certificate course for editorial training. Then you have the variety of style guides that differ, and the ever fluctuating grammar rules, depending on your generation. There are so many variable. I have had SEVERAL books submitted to me where the authors claimed to have paid thousands of dollars on a professional edit and when we edited the books again (and we certainly did) we found TONS of errors, not discrepancies, errors. There is no guarantee.

You can no longer judge price as a variable in quality. It just won't work. And keep i mind that reviews are merely OPINIONS and not a sure thing. I have never like an Oscar winning movie yet!


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

EchelonPress said:


> I have to weigh in on this as a publisher. I wish we could stop putting labels on publishers and authors. Indie, self-pubbed, micro, traditional. It simply muddies the water and it pretty much irrelevant at this point.
> 
> There are so many authors out there, of all status' who are published by a variety of houses, and many develop their own house. The industry has changed so much that we will NEVER be able to keep up or agree on what's what. Fact is, a book is a book is a book, whether it is print, eBook, audio, it's a book!
> 
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, but the fact of the matter is, as much as writers hate gatekeepers...readers really like them. It provides some level of risk management. A stamp of approval -- even a capricious, arbitrary one -- makes it a little bit easier to make that purchase.

And as the traditional publishing industry is dying, I think the role we writers hated most about it is probably the one with the most staying power. I agree with Konrath's claim that writers will (and already do) have methods for finding the stuff they want no matter the size of the slush pile, but one of those methods is finding a reliable filter.

I think in the future that role will fall to critics and reviewers. Not one or two deciding for the market, but thousands of them out there willing to take the time to review at Amazon or Goodreads. Readers will pick the individual reviewers whose tastes best match their own, and follow them the way they followed imprints in the last century.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

EchelonPress said:


> I have to weigh in on this as a publisher. I wish we could stop putting labels on publishers and authors. Indie, self-pubbed, micro, traditional. It simply muddies the water and it pretty much irrelevant at this point.


When I submitted the original post, I needed a noun and chose "indie" without really knowing what the term meant. I agree that the terminology has become confusing. I rarely know or check the mechanism for posting a 0.99-2.99 dollar book for purchase. So I wasn't intending to malign indies or any other publishing segment.

What I had noticed was that I seemed to be getting a higher percentage of "unfinished" books. The risk of lower quality (which leads me to waste several hours towards a frustrating end) has resulted in greater hesitation to make an impulse purchase based solely on the price. In a used book store, I might well stock up on a pile of cheap books, assuming that most have met some level of print-publishing editing standard. I'm coming to the conclusion that I can't make this assumption with eBooks, that I need to be more careful about sampling and reading reviews no matter the price.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

GBear said:


> When I submitted the original post, I needed a noun and chose "indie" without really knowing what the term meant. I agree that the terminology has become confusing. I rarely know or check the mechanism for posting a 0.99-2.99 dollar book for purchase. So I wasn't intending to malign indies or any other publishing segment.
> 
> What I had noticed was that I seemed to be getting a higher percentage of "unfinished" books. The risk of lower quality (which leads me to waste several hours towards a frustrating end) has resulted in greater hesitation to make an impulse purchase based solely on the price. In a used book store, I might well stock up on a pile of cheap books, assuming that most have met some level of print-publishing editing standard. I'm coming to the conclusion that I can't make this assumption with eBooks, that I need to be more careful about sampling and reading reviews no matter the price.


I guess I'm with you on greater hesitation on impulse buys (I'm not big on doing that anyway). I did start out downloading a lot of free stuff just because it was free. By and large I found most of it was not my thing (never mind the grammar/editing or endings.) I don't download even the free stuff unless it has SOMETHING to catch my eye, be it genre, good blurb and so on. I don't read the samples of the freebies, but even there I'm more selective and I don't care if it traditionally published, indie or small publisher! I ended up with about a 100 freebies from the early days---I've no idea what they are, why I downloaded them and from a sample here and there, I'll end up not reading most of them.


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## EchelonPress (Sep 30, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I am not so much disagreeing as I am trying to say that it really doesn't matter who pubishes it, it all boils down to the author taking pride in their work. Before anyone clocks me, I am a published author and my first three published books were not edited. I thought I had done a terrific job and the publisher backed me up on that. I ended up having crap published. I am embarrassed by my earlier books and am now in the process of having them edited so I can republish. Note I said HAVING them edited. An author should never rely on themselves, or even just one editor. It takes a village... 

I don't personally read reviews, as a rule. I used to and it ended up that every time someone said a book was the very best, I hated it. The steampunk novel LEVIATHON is a good example. So many rave reveiws and kudos, I read it. It was okay. There were errors, I even feel like the plot was a little lacking. Not to mention the character development was kinda weak. But that is simply my OPINION.

And as for gatekeepers. Who is really qualified to lead the masses when reading is so subjective? we rely on each other, but it should all be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Mark Young (Dec 13, 2010)

here is a tremendous volume of books to sample with the advent of eBook and POD self-publication, plus the whole gamut of so-called traditional and non-traditional authors. Trying to choose which one to buy becomes complicated. However, with the lower-priced books available, it affords the reader a great opportunity to 'sample' authors you might never have encountered before. To find that diamond in the rough, I think a reader needs to use all the avenues available: word-of-mouth, other avid readers you trust, and blogs and reviews you have trusted in the past. Yes, it is worth the risk.

Now, I find the biggest problem is getting the time to read all these new novels. Does anyone have a fix for that problem


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## spiritualtramp (Feb 3, 2011)

Aaron Pogue said:


> I understand where you're coming from, but the fact of the matter is, as much as writers hate gatekeepers...readers really like them. It provides some level of risk management. A stamp of approval -- even a capricious, arbitrary one -- makes it a little bit easier to make that purchase.


As a looooong time reader I never really paid attention to the "gatekeeper" when I bought a book. Granted when I was a kid and into adulthood the notion of an "indie" author or publisher wasn't anywhere on my radar. These days I'm more than willing to drop <$5 on someone who's unknown to me. Samples help. Podcasts actually help a LOT. (Authors, consider podcasting your work or if you're with a small press convince them to let you podcast your stuff and release for free through Podiobooks.) I've discovered half dozen or more authors through podcasts whose books I will now buy whether I sample them first or not.

Of course I'll grant that this may be because I'm an indie author myself and I see the level of passion in my community and want that passion rewarded.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

spiritualtramp said:


> As a looooong time reader I never really paid attention to the "gatekeeper" when I bought a book. Granted when I was a kid and into adulthood the notion of an "indie" author or publisher wasn't anywhere on my radar. These days I'm more than willing to drop <$5 on someone who's unknown to me. Samples help. Podcasts actually help a LOT. (Authors, consider podcasting your work or if you're with a small press convince them to let you podcast your stuff and release for free through Podiobooks.) I've discovered half dozen or more authors through podcasts whose books I will now buy whether I sample them first or not.
> 
> Of course I'll grant that this may be because I'm an indie author myself and I see the level of passion in my community and want that passion rewarded.


Wow. My marketing director has been pressing me to start putting together podiobooks. I wasn't convinced there was _that_ much of a demand for it. It's hardly fair how often he gets to be right.


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## Joshua Unruh (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm Aaron's aforementioned marketing director pushing for podio books and I have to second your emotion, spiritualtramp. I have discovered a couple of authors I really enjoy because they were willing to give their book away for free via podcast and I think it's a great idea. Combine that with several websites devoted to genre short stories and you get me leaning on Aaron. Thank you so much for your response, you did a bunch of my work for me!  

As far as risk, I'm a guy who owns and reads a lot of comic books. A LOT of comics books. A new single issue, that's usually 1/6 of an entire story or less, costs between $2.99 and $3.99. More if you go to "indie" publishers. A thin greenback to try out an entire novel, even one by somebody completely untested (and who's really untested thanks to amazon reviews?) is an easy expenditure. As a guy who felt like he missed out on the golden age of pulp magazines when you could get a lot of prose for very little money, this is like a new renaissance for me.


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## Erick Flaig (Oct 25, 2010)

The risk is not in dollars, it's in time.  Jeez, a bottle of water costs $1.39.  I'll trade dollars for time any day in the week.  When I need something to read, I sample, I read reviews, and I buy.  I'm not hard on those writers who miss some typos, but I won't finish a book I don't enjoy.  That's the criteria I set for my own writing; I can return your 99 cents.  I can't refund your time.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

I think we should also consider that this is still the transitional period of ebooks and indie publishing becoming mainstream. The business models and tools are still maturing. The idea of self-publishing is still exciting.

But in five or ten years, this will all be mainstream and the excitement and novelty will wear off. People will realize that self-publishing is not a get-rich-quick scheme most of the time. I think we'll hit a point where fewer people are rushing to publish that novel burning a hole in their hard drive. 

And the tools and services to support the remaining authors will be even better (human and machine). So when the dust settles, I believe there will be fewer low-quality books out there cluttering up the interwebs. 

That is my infallible prediction.


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## easyreader (Feb 20, 2011)

As someone noted, it's not about money, it's about time.  That's the one resource you can't replace.


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## Aaron Pogue (Feb 18, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> And the tools and services to support the remaining authors will be even better (human and machine). So when the dust settles, I believe there will be fewer low-quality books out there cluttering up the interwebs.


That's a really good point. I hadn't thought about it like that, but you're absolutely right.

The tools and services to support buyers will be getting better, too. Amazon has some pretty fancy tricks for its recommendation algorithm, but as we move to e-books, as readers take a more and more active role in deciding what does and doesn't sell (through sampling and reviews), those algorithms are going to have much richer datasets to draw on.


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## Dan Ames (Feb 8, 2011)

Absolutely, whenever I buy books, I always include a cheap indie or two that looks good.  I've been disappointed, sure, but I've also found some good stuff.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

And consider this - what happens when a cheap and easy application comes along that allows anyone to create a decent video game? The video game industry is much more profitable than book publishing. 

All of the people who are either more interested in making money or who are simply less passionate about writing will flock to the new venue, leaving books to the book-lovers (us!).


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## D/W (Dec 29, 2010)

If the genre interests me and the book description really draws me in, I'm willing to spend a few bucks on an unknown book.  I have discovered some excellent indie books that way.  There have been some duds, of course, but I've had the same experience with more expensive books.


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## AmyJ (Feb 16, 2011)

I understand your point and your concerns are valid. But before you give up on indie writers and indie books I would like you to consider a few things first.  I read both indie books and those with well known publishers. I have found pro's and con's to both but nothing so drastic that it would deter me from reading either.

Indie Pro's 
Original material that has not been cut, redefined, molded ect...
creative and captivating reading material at a very low price
Variety of style

Indie Con's
Cover Art may be of less quality 
more typos, less polished, issues with the format
Not always as easy to locate or find a review, especially if the author is new

Commercial Pro's
Cover Art tends to be of much higher quality
Well edited for the most part
Easy to locate and find a review

Commercial Con's
Books are published as a result of anticipated sales! The story is not always original. Books are selected based on what is current in the trend of popular reading resulting in less variety of style.
more $$$

Having said that...  Writers and editors are not the same.  A good writer may not make a good editor and vice versa. Writers who are published commercially have something indie writers do not. Commercial back up, money!  The average cost to edit a book is around $1200.00. Not everyone has that type of cash lying around.  Ideally, if an indie author can make good sales on their first book they will reinvest the profit into editing for future books.  

I'm not making excuses. I only wanted people to see both sides of the situation.

Thanks for listening.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> And consider this - what happens when a cheap and easy application comes along that allows anyone to create a decent video game? The video game industry is much more profitable than book publishing.


Actually, this has already happened with the iPhone and similar devices. Tiny cheap games for a fraction of the cost of 'big name' boxed games, many of which have been created by a small team or even a single person, the most successful of which are making huge profits. You can see it to a lesser extent with things like Xbox Live Arcade (kind of a 'midlist' situation), and there is a huge and thriving community of indie game developers--look at Minecraft for an amazing example of indie game success. I'd actually say that indie game development right now is far more advanced than indie book publishing.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I've read some really good Indie books lately. *Out of Time* a paranormal romance by Monique Martin is very enjoyable. Other excellent Indie authors include Beth Orsoff and L.C. Evans. Check out their books if you like romantic comedy.

On the dark side, I've enjoyed some strange flash fiction stories by Claire Farrell. And Blake Crouch is now publishing independently. So are a lot of writers who used to be traditionally published.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

Ben White said:


> Actually, this has already happened with the iPhone and similar devices. Tiny cheap games for a fraction of the cost of 'big name' boxed games, many of which have been created by a small team or even a single person, the most successful of which are making huge profits.


Spot on. I guess I was thinking about some sort of generic engine that any random person might use to create a semi-professional looking game, so that the masses would all try to suddenly get rich quick making games. The gaming equivalent of Smashwords Meatgrinder for books.


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## Ben White (Feb 11, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> Spot on. I guess I was thinking about some sort of generic engine that any random person might use to create a semi-professional looking game, so that the masses would all try to suddenly get rich quick making games. The gaming equivalent of Smashwords Meatgrinder for books.


Well ...  There are things like Game Maker and similar programs that are simple enough for a not-particularly-technical person to use, but flexible enough to make something as interesting and polished as, say, Knytt Stories. But probably the one thing that has acted as an 'equaliser' for many indie developers is Flash--it's comparatively simple to use compared to less abstract programming languages/tools and has served as the foundation for many, many more technically simplistic games over the past few years, both indie and mainstream.

Actually, what you're talking about--at least the 'get rich quick' part--is kind of happening with Facebook games right now--there are a lot of what I think of as 'scam' games on there, where you can play so far for free but after that you're essentially forced to pay for 'gems' or other units of currency which allow you to progress further. Often these games have professional graphics and slick interfaces, but are greatly lacking in the actual gameplay department--basically a money and time sink.

But I digress


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

I've just finished one very good low price indie, The Summoner, and am in the middle of another, Death Has a Name.  Both books look pro-edited and are compelling stories.  

While I would normally suggest the whole 'you get what you pay for' thing is usually correct, in the book world, I don't think it holds.  Really, price only tells you what the author or publisher thinks a work is worth (and even then, you don't know if that's the worth of the work on it's own, or as part of a larger marketing plan).  

Sampling may not be perfect, but having read over 20 indies at this point, there was only one where the sample wasn't a good predictor for the rest of the book.  And even in that case it wasn't a bad predictor of the quality of the book as an exercise in grammar, just as an exercise in storytelling.  

Still, back in the day, we'd go to the bookstore, read the back of the book, maybe flip through it, and possibly sit and read a bit for a while, then buy the book.  At least now, with the indies and the low price loss leaders, you're only out a buck, and if you really loathe the book, you can return it with a few clicks of your mouse.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I think they are worth the risk. Like others have said though, check the product before buying. 

I have gone to the printed versions and looked at some of the high-selling indie authors and was not impressed with their typos and terrible word usage. However, I have found others that looked fine, and after I bought them, was completely happy with the purchase.

Over the years, I have been published. Some of my stories were edited while others were untouched by publishers before making it into the magazine. A few of them, I still grit my teeth today when I read them.  Wish I could take them back. But, that's growing with one's craft.

I don't see any reason to have a multitude of typos; even one will take me out of the story. If you want to be published in whatever format, make sure the story is ready. Proofreading helps, but sometimes you are too close to the project to see the issues. You need others to read them, and if you're not capable with grammar, find someone that can.

Don't ruin a budding career.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

To mention poor editing, I recently re-read my paperback of Stephen King's _Carrie_. Weird typos in almost every chapter. Since you don't expect to see typos in a traditionally published book, my eyes skipped over the first few. And honestly, it didn't really detract too much from my enjoyment of the story--I just figured someone typeset that particular edition who didn't mind his Ps and Qs very well. I've seen typos or missed words in almost every book I've read, no matter who copyedited it. If there are a lot of these errors, then it starts distracting me, but if there aren't too many (say, one every chapter or so), then my eyes tend to skip over them.

To err is human, to edit divine.


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## phatpuppyart (Feb 26, 2011)

I felt much like you -- not sure if it's worth the risk - and I'm new to the whole ebook thing. 

However, as much as you can run into poorly edited purchases - think of all of the treasures that are waiting to be discovered.
  I'm trying these days to look at that glass as half-full! lol

I recently got my daughter, 18, hooked on Amanda Hocking's books -- and she had never read an e-book in her life...
She was amazed at some of the good work she's already purchased thru kindle.

So I think with most anything -  you can get buy really lousy stuff for full pop too.

Just my opinion and I'm glad you posted your query for all of us to share the feedback.

Peace,

Claudia


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## tim290280 (Jan 11, 2011)

AmyJ said:


> Having said that... Writers and editors are not the same. A good writer may not make a good editor and vice versa. Writers who are published commercially have something indie writers do not. Commercial back up, money! The average cost to edit a book is around $1200.00. Not everyone has that type of cash lying around. Ideally, if an indie author can make good sales on their first book they will reinvest the profit into editing for future books.
> 
> I'm not making excuses. I only wanted people to see both sides of the situation.
> 
> Thanks for listening.


$1200 for editing is not always the case. Scientific papers are sent out for peer review and are essentially done free and are usually held to a much higher standard than a typical novel. So editing doesn't actually have to cost lots of money, it is more about the quality of the editing performed. I know if indie authors were to look they could find friends, fellow writers, etc, to edit in exchange for the same service in return. From comments here it sounds like many already do.

Also I was meant to get an official certification for editing so I have looked over the supposed qualifications necessary to become a "professional editor". Just with most qualifications, there is nothing special about being a certified editor who charges lots of money.


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## billie hinton (Jan 30, 2011)

One thing I'll add here is that many of the indie authors I know, including myself, have books that have been agented and edited professionally in the process of submission to traditional publishing's big houses. I've been reading a lot of indies since December when I got my Kindle, and there is definitely some diversity in the quality of the editing. But on the other hand there are some really good books. 

The free sample is definitely part of my routine when shopping for good reads, and I do this for every book no matter what the cost - it's the equivalent to what I have always done when shopping in a bookstore - title and cover, then inside flap copy, then first page, then a random sample in the middle of the book.


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## spiritualtramp (Feb 3, 2011)

Joshua Unruh said:


> I'm Aaron's aforementioned marketing director pushing for podio books and I have to second your emotion, spiritualtramp. I have discovered a couple of authors I really enjoy because they were willing to give their book away for free via podcast and I think it's a great idea. Combine that with several websites devoted to genre short stories and you get me leaning on Aaron. Thank you so much for your response, you did a bunch of my work for me!


LOL. You're welcome! I'll be putting a book (possibly two-three) up there later this year. Not only is Podiobooks in particular an awesome community, all the podcasters I know personally are good networkers and can help you go a long way (provided there's reciprocity).


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## pixichick (Mar 1, 2011)

I would definitely say to buy a sample - it's usually enough to give you a good feel for it.  The great things about indie books is that there are a lot of authors out there who are good writers, and the only reason they can't get an agent is because agencies aren't doing so well these days with the eBook revolution, so more and more qualified authors are getting turned away as a result because they are first-time writers.  

On the other hand, there are a lot of poorly formatted and not very well thought out books out there now too, so that's why a sample will help you weed out the good from the bad.


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## Jane Fancher (Mar 12, 2011)

GBear said:


> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


Good editing is essential. Writers who care enough to really edit their own work soon get too close to it for a clear overview. Writers who don't care enough get the kind of product they deserve.

We're lucky at Closed Circle. Lynn Abbey, CJ Cherryh and I edit each other...far more ruthlessly than NY ever edited any of us. (The only thing I ever got out of NY was (a) make it shorter (not because of the quality but because Warner wouldn't put out a book that long as a first novel---even the editor couldn't see how to make it shorter. Just told me "do it.") and (b) use double instead of single quotes and spell grey "gray". Real useful input.

I suspect that ultimately, and if they play their cards right, the most important non-writer in the book publishing chain will become the professional editors. I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a time when a given name listed as "editor" will make a real difference in the success of a book. It means editors will become quality sieves in their own right in order to protect their "name" on a product.

Ah, such a brave new world we're living in!


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## Jane Fancher (Mar 12, 2011)

MariaESchneider said:


> I know at least two authors who spent well over twice what I did on editing and they still had typos...so it's a mixed bag.


Youch! Editing is different from copy-editing. Typos, grammar: copy-editor. Consistency, pacing, character balance, etc: editor. Both important but very different. Typos are the least of a writer's problems, and have been a constant reality in published books since the beginning. A few of those don't bother me. Consistently bad grammar and punctuation...I consider that an author who hasn't bothered to take the time to learn the basics of their craft and am certain I'll find that lack of basics in the story-telling as well. (After years of workshop experience, I've never, ever found that not to be the case. There might be a good idea, even some endearing characters, but the story itself will be lacking.)

The story-telling is where an editor can really make a difference. I've seen lots of polished work...nary a typo nor grammatically mistake in sight...where the story-telling sucked pond water. FWIW, I'd say, in general, it's smarter to spring the big bucks for an editor and learn to do the copy-editing yourself. That critical overview is invaluable.


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## Jane Fancher (Mar 12, 2011)

Joseph Robert Lewis said:


> And the tools and services to support the remaining authors will be even better (human and machine). So when the dust settles, I believe there will be fewer low-quality books out there cluttering up the interwebs.
> 
> That is my infallible prediction.


I sure hope you're right! 

BTW...just checked out your Mars novel. Downloaded the sample. Love the sound of it!


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

Jane Fancher said:


> I sure hope you're right!
> 
> BTW...just checked out your Mars novel. Downloaded the sample. Love the sound of it!


Thanks so much Jane, I hope you enjoy it!

(Rumor has it I'm thinking about a sequel to it)


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## Renee Adams (Mar 14, 2011)

I really can't stand typos myself, but for *some* indie books, the unique story lines can make it worth wading through the typos.

On the whole though, typos tend to jolt me out of the carefully crafted world that the writer has gone to so much trouble to create. It seems pretty self-defeating.

It's much like walking down a gorgeous garden path, admiring the flowers and landscaping, only to get a shock when you stumble over an enormous rock in your way. Suddenly you're not focused on the beauty of the garden so much as the knee you've just skinned.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Jane Fancher said:


> The story-telling is where an editor can really make a difference. I've seen lots of polished work...nary a typo nor grammatically mistake in sight...where the story-telling sucked pond water. FWIW, I'd say, in general, it's smarter to spring the big bucks for an editor and learn to do the copy-editing yourself. That critical overview is invaluable.


Big bucks is not what makes the difference in whether you get a good editor.  It might be a start, but every writer has to find an editor they can work with and one who is very good at her/his job. I've been critiqued by a reader or two that had stronger skills than some editors...it's all a matter or working, continuing to work and working harder. Then, try new things, new people, new beta readers and so on. The goal is to always up it a notch with every book, every story, every character.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> The goal is to always up it a notch with every book, every story, every character.


Absolutely. If you're not learning and growing, then...well, either you're failing as an artist or you've farmed out your work to a team of ghost-writing lackeys!


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## Shelia A. Huggins (Jan 20, 2011)

Renee Adams said:


> I really can't stand typos myself, but for *some* indie books, the unique story lines can make it worth wading through the typos.
> 
> On the whole though, typos tend to jolt me out of the carefully crafted world that the writer has gone to so much trouble to create. It seems pretty self-defeating.
> 
> It's much like walking down a gorgeous garden path, admiring the flowers and landscaping, only to get a shock when you stumble over an enormous rock in your way. Suddenly you're not focused on the beauty of the garden so much as the knee you've just skinned.


I was reading a sample last week, and this very thing happened. I like the way the story is written. But there is something going on with the font that's making it hard for me to stay focused on the story. I keep getting sidetracked.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

I host a blog called Cheap Thrills http://cthrills.blogspot.com/2011/03/sage-tales-from-magical-kingdom.html that reviews horror, sci fi, and fantasy e-books under $4.99. Stop by if you're interested!


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

When the Kindle first came out and Indie publishing started to become popular, some of those $.99 were... well, I guess of the "you get what you pay for" variety.

However, Indie publishing has become so much more!

I recently began offering Editing Services, and the books I take on are very good, with many being published at $.99 and the rest generally $2.99 and under.

Currently, I'm booked until late September with editing jobs. Indies have gotten serious about producing quality work!

I know a lot of other freelance editors are booked as well. We are all working together as a community to have professional books provided at a low price for wonderful readers!

**********************

On a side note, I encourage anyone who reads Indie books to post reviews, honest ones, good or bad. Those reviews can truly help an author who deserves it get 'known.'


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I don't see much risk. I pretty much always sample. If at the end of the sample, I want to keep reading, then it is highly unlikely I'm going to think it wasn't worth the 3 or 4 dollars I typically spend.

In fact, with dozens of indies purchased, I'd say I have only felt that it was really a waste because of what I considered a very weak ending once and that was probably me being too picky because the rest of the novel was fairly good.

There are bad indies out there but reviews and sampling makes finding the good ones reasonably easy.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

GBear said:


> I love paying $0.99-2.99 for a good book. But I really HATE reading an otherwise good book that is marred by typos (no proof-reading), inconsistencies (poor editing) and poor flow (also poor editing). For me, they can ruin what would otherwise be a great reading experience. I'm starting to be more hesitant about automatically downloading those tempting low-priced books because they seem to offer a greater risk of aggravation.
> 
> For those who say, "You get what you pay for," how much do I need to pay to expect a well-crafted, well-presented work? How much does it add to the cost? I'm willing to hate those faceless, money-grubbing "publishers," but I'm starting to yearn for more product of the editors who work for them.


I think much of this would be solved by sampling books beforehand. It's usually pretty easy to tell within the first few pages if a book is well written or if the writer just slapped it together and threw it on Amazon.


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## jabeard (Apr 22, 2011)

I've been burned a few times before (well, as much as spending 99 cents can hurt). Now, I just sample. Since I'e started that, I haven't had many issues. Sure, not every book is five stars, but if I liked the sample it usually is at least three stars and worth a few hours/99 cents.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I will put up with occasional typos - nobody's perfect - but sometimes the author has clearly never used a spellchecker. And sometimes the formatting is atrocious. Personally I "buy" a copy of my own ebooks (not to inflate the rank!), just so I can see exactly what the reader will see.

As a writer, I'd like to know every typo or other errors anybody finds - apart from UK/Us spelling variations!

deb


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## Keair (Apr 18, 2011)

The truth is, a writer can go through their work with a fine toothed comb and still not get all of the typos in there. If the book isn't flowing the problem may actually be with the writing, not the editing. Editing can't make a writer a natural with flow and prose (two things that are important if you are going to be a writer). But I have first editions of books by Stephen King, Anne Rice, and Nora Roberts, to name a few, that have typos here and there. If a work is riddled with them than perhaps the writer should go back over the story and do a little editing. We all miss a few but it is important to really read your work over and over again before submitting it anywhere. This is especially true when you know that you are your own editor. Having said this, if a story has a few maybe you could take a little pity on the writer. As I said before, I've read my own book cover to cover about 6 times editing at each go-round and I was looking over it today when I found a typo. But there is definately a difference between missing a couple and trying to muddle through a book that is full of typos and errors. I can sympathize with this. If you read the preview before buying, maybe this will help you get some of the good ones that are out there because there really are .99 books worth reading.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I've read some *awesomely* good minimum-priced indie ebooks. And some pretty awful ones too. But I'll take all the bad ones for the gems that I've found. Indies ROCK!


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## jonathanmoeller (Apr 19, 2011)

And that is why you sample a book before you buy. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who complain that they were cheated when buying an ebook because, jeez, the sample button is _right there_. You wouldn't buy a real book without reading the first few pages first, would you?

-JM


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## Tamara Rose Blodgett (Apr 1, 2011)

YES: When I received my Kindle as a gift, my husband started searching for books to fuel the 3-5 reads per wk. habit and we quickly discovered the $3 and under bracket. For me, it's all about genre and reviews. I search the recently popular in the genre I'm interested in, and if there is mainly 5 star reviews I'll take the chance. After all...the readers are reviewing the books so we can make an educated purchase ( I review every book I read also). I love some regular authors but their stuff is so much $...I find myself waiting until the price comes down, can't justify it. When I decided to publish, I kept that in mind. I will never publish my books for more than $2.99. If I hadn't had the experience before[with purchasing carefully selected, cheaper titles], I may have felt differently. I mainly read all the cheap books now and haven't been disappointed. Good luck~! Recent author reads: J.A. Konrath, John Locke, and Amanda Hocking. I am reading, Sam I Am right now.


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## Keith B. Darrell (Apr 27, 2011)

Personally, I follow Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. The rise of eBooks and self-publishing craze have moved the slush pile from the agent's waste basket to the Internet, making it harder to find quality work in a sea of guck. But hopefully, the cream will rise to the surface. The crème de la crème, to quote from The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, is out there. 

Writing is both a craft and an art. A writer masters the craft by learning grammar, spelling, diction, punctuation, characterization, pacing, plotting, and dialogue. The craft can be taught and it can be learned. But the art – the beauty of words finely woven into intricate sentence strands that blend into a concise, flowing experience that touches the reader on an emotional level – that cannot be taught or learned. It is an inherent talent, borne of the writer’s soul, as surely as the printer’s ink that flows through his veins.

Proper editing and proofreading are essential, yet typos will always find their way into every book, whether traditional or self-published. There are small printer's gremlins whose sole task is to wait at the printing press and insert them into the otherwise perfect copy delivered by the author. 

If you want quality writing, seek out quality authors. As has been mentioned in this thread, sample their work. Forego a candy bar and splurge the 99 cents on a work by a new writer. If the story is well written; the spelling, diction, and grammar would meet the approval of your high school English teacher; and you enjoyed it, then buy the rest of that writer's output. More importantly, spread the word here and elsewhere - speaking on behalf of my fellow authors, we need the publicity. We don't have Random House's budget: we rely on people like YOU to spread the word. 

Oh, and if you do find an error, tell the author. We work very hard on our books and want them to be perfect. If I'm notified of any error in any of my books or short stories, I will correct it immediately. Then I'll hunt down the gremlin responsible


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## Joanna Stephen-Ward (May 4, 2011)

Whatever the price of the book it should be edited for typos and punctuation and there should be no plot holes or inaccuracies.

It is up to the indie author to ensure their book is as good as they can get it.

I had both my Kindle books fully edited and appraised. It cost a lot of money, but if I want people to buy them they should be as good as possible.

Indie writers do themselves and other indie writers a huge disservice, if they put up a poor book.

Joanna

_--- edited... no self-promotion outside the Book Bazaar forum. please read our Forum Decorum thread._


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

I have been reading books recently that are from well known publishing houses and they've had some dreadful editing; words missed out or repeated and even a whole page repeated in one of them.
It isn't just self-published books that are the problem or the big publishing houses as I've seen some with publishers who say they have editors but it is horrendous. There are editors and there are editors and I can tell you now, there are an awful lot of people who call themselves editors and really shouldn't.

Sadly, I think this is what we'll see far more of now too.


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## Ray Rhamey author (Jan 6, 2011)

As an Indie author/publisher, I say don't paint us all with the same typo-laden brush. Even though I'm also an editor, I hired a copyeditor for the most recent novel published. I think the folks who pointed out sampling have the right idea.


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree with the comments about sampling and reading reviews. Downloading a sample is quick and easy, and you can usually work out within the first couple of pages whether the book has been well-edited and has a writing style that suits you. Reviews give you an appreciation of how the book as a whole fares.

While the occasional typo is forgivable, you shouldn't have to put up with typo-riddled work. There are hundreds of brilliant indie books out there that are well-written as well as being entertaining stories.


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## TLH (Jan 20, 2011)

I've been reading more and more indies. Bad formatting doesn't bother me at all. As for typo's  I haven't come across a book yet that had enough to bother me. I'm pretty low key about stuff like that. What bothers me more is when the authors tells every single thing the character is doing or they are over-descriptive.


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## Sift (May 9, 2011)

I'm pretty picky and find that a lot of low-priced books on Amazon have 4 or so reviews that are all like "This was the best book I've ever read! I can't believe how awesome it was! Everything was perfect." But then I read it and it's sub-par. So often I find I can't trust the reviews if there are only a few of them because they're probably by friends and family of the author. However, a sample is great at giving you a taste of the author's writing style and talent.

That's part of why I started Sift, actually.  I didn't know where to go for reviews that I knew were unbiased, since most reviewers won't look at self-pubbed books.


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## jherrick (Apr 1, 2011)

I've found some good low-priced ones. And like people noted above, I sampled before buying. I have to admit, the ebook's cover (or lack thereof) influences me too. It's not intentional, but in the back of my mind, I catch myself wondering, "If they didn't put an effort into the cover, how much effort did they put into the story?" The two are unrelated, the book is one whole package.


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## Kiley (May 8, 2011)

I usually find typos distracting, but I find myself a lot more forgiving when I've only spent $2.99 or less for a book. With the lower cost books, I find myself focusing on the story, seeing if the author can weave a good yarn.


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

I find one way to work out whose books might be worth reading or well written, is to check their blogs or websites. Most authors today should have one if they want to be taken seriously and they often show samples of their work or have articles in general that shows more about them. I won't promote anyone on Authors on Show unless they have a site people can go to in order to learn more as I want to give our readers a real insight into the author and their books before they buy.
That's how we select a lot of who we promote - just an idea you might like to try if you haven't already, Lorraine


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## Eliz (May 8, 2011)

I love the price of the ebooks. 
I would have to admit I have delected
a few ebooks due to the poor writing
skill level (I just couldnt take another 
poorly written sentence plus the plot was
weak). The other thing that makes me lose
interest is when an author goes on and on
about details that takes away from their plot.
Cheers Eliz


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

As a reader, I wonder why people give away their books so cheaply as to me, pricing them anything under £2.99 is a give-away really. Yes, it might get your name known, but to what purpose? If I'm looking for books and they're too cheap I think they can't be that good as they have to price them so low and so I overlook them to be honest.

As an author, I feel it wrong to price my books too low as I believe in them and think they are well worth the money - those who have read them (that I have had e-mails and messages from) seem to agree. As all of us on here who write know, a book takes a lot of hard work, time and effort and to think at the end it isn't worth more than about $0.99 or 71p is heartbreaking to me.

I know Amazon reduce the prices we set at will and can also price them up at times;  for example, one of mine is priced at £10.50 for it in paperback and they put it on Amazon for £14.99. As for Kindle I will stick to what I think mine are worth. and as they're selling, it must be ok.


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## William BK. (Mar 8, 2011)

I've also found myself reading more and more indie books, not only because I'm cheap (which is why I'd always wait the year for the massback to be released), but there is some real quality stuff out there. There are traditionally published books with poor editing, yes, but I hold the same rule for indie books as for trad books: if the formatting and/or errors don't get in the way of reading, then I'll push through. What is the threshold? I don't know. I read freshman essays, so my tolerance level may be higher than some, but then again I want to read books that speak of professionalism. Sample, yes, but I've also found on many occasions that the problems don't show up until late (or get worse), almost as though the author knows what the sampling window is and get things perfect till that point and then....

In short, I think I'm more willing to forgive occasional editing gaffes if the content is good. If the content is poor, even a perfect book technically isn't going to cut it.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Ray Rhamey said:


> As an Indie author/publisher, I say don't paint us all with the same typo-laden brush.


I agree.

And don't assume all traditionally-published books have been expertly edited. My first book, The Kindness of Strangers, was published by a Big 6 publisher who got me on Oprah. I had handed in what I thought was a first draft. But my manuscript went to press without a single word or punctuation mark changed.

It wasn't until I got the rights back and put it out as a low-priced Indie e-book that I was able to fix the mistakes the NYC "pros" missed.

So maybe the better question is: High-priced traditional publishers - Worth the risk?


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## Dan Holloway (Dec 18, 2010)

Mike, it sounds like you had the same kind of problem Jonathan Franzen kicked up so rough about - what a nightmare for you. 

I think Eliz and TLH have hit the nail on the head - a lack of editing is way more off-putting to most people than a lack of proofing. Endless introspection and description and repetition, passages that add nothing, structure that's non-existent. Those are the things that kill most bad books. But you can usually tell if a book's going to have those issues within a few paragraphs - so if an indie book is cheap and looks great, all it takes to tell if appearances are deceptive is 30 seconds with the sample


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

Hello Dan, I feel more at home now - a familiar face and name xx


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## PraiseGod13 (Oct 27, 2008)

They are absolutely worth the risk.... but sampling them first will help (sometimes).  I have had excellent luck with low-priced indies with a few "not so excellent" ones thrown into the mix.  Some of my very favorite indies have been free or 99 cents.


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## Cheryl Bradshaw Author (Apr 13, 2011)

I believe a book, whether it be .99 or $9.99 should be as grammatically correct as possible.  I always download a sample, and usually I can tell fairly quickly if the book is going to be a good read that's worth my time


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## Dan Holloway (Dec 18, 2010)

ascepticalmedium said:


> Hello Dan, I feel more at home now - a familiar face and name xx


  There are lots of familiar friendly faces around here, though a few more from my Youwriteon days than Authonomy


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## StephenLivingston (May 10, 2011)

With the Kindle's facility to first view a free sample of the work and also the option to return books I don't see that there is any risk involved at all, so go right ahead and check out as many new authors as you can. I'm sure you'll find some great writers out there.

_--- edited... no self-promotion outside the Book Bazaar forum. please read our Forum Decorum thread._


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## ThatGurlthatlife (May 10, 2011)

One great way to avoid to badly written, poorly edit ebooks are to try the sample. It's free , so why not?  If I can't make it through the first three chapters of the sample, then I move on along to the next one. No money wasted and i still get to enjoy great writing for 99 cents!! Just because books are priced higher doesn't mean you won't get crap. Being frugal with your dollar, and taking the time to research just a little before you buy will help you and the good authors/great writers in the long run.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

The samples are certainly the thing to do.

Every now and again I decide to skip the sample, and, of course, those are the times I get caught out. Mind you, while I don't like buying something that's not 'finished', at 99 cents, I'm not going to waste my time chasing a refund.


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Say, has anyone mentioned trying the samples first? 

There's plenty of $0.99 garbage out there, for sure, but there are also plenty of jewels if you look.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

In regards to _looking_, for those who think it's all too hard, it's much the same as browsing a bookshop's shelves really.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> I used to refuse to abandon a book but I got over that when I started writing seriously. Now I treat books like I'm an agent or editor, and sometimes won't even push past the first 3 pages.


I still refuse to put down a book if I've paid too much for it (example: Dead Reckoning by Charlaine Harris. The entire time I was disappointed and wanted to stop, but I'd just paid $20 for the thing. I wasn't not reading it.) That's why I like indie books. They're cheaper (regardless where the book comes from, my budget doesn't allow too many books over $5) and for the most part, they're just as well written. Sure, they'll have mistakes editing-wise, but everything does (I found 12 mistakes in 8 pages while reading the tradpubbed Drizzt series).

I recently posted a blog on the subject, actually. A couple people thought I was limiting myself by reading mostly indies, but I don't feel deprived at all. I can read more books for the same price, and I'm just as happy (if not happier) with what I have read.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I haven't really looked much at the indie books yet but it would be great to find (discover) a new "voice" out there with a great new story.  I'm an avid reader when I have the time and I have been disappointed by some of the poor stories I have read by well know Big 6 authors over the last few years.  Some sloppy, some poorly written, some just clumsy and stupid...Most of them are bestsellers too.  So I would definitely give a new author a chance if the story interested me.  With the sample I don't really see how you could go wrong--since if its rough and clunky you will know it right at the beginning.  

Today it is more difficult than ever for a new writer to get a big publisher to publish their book and the book publishing business just ain't what it used to be.  Lot of big changes over the last 20 years and very hard for new writers to get their work out there.  I bet over the next few years there will be real gems on Kindle that the Big Six rejected.  Anyway for $1-$5 bucks you can't go wrong if you sample and fine with me if the writer can make a couple bucks for providing me with a good read.  

I think Kindle will just keep growing and provide a great venue for new writers to publish, something which paper publishers no longer do.  For decades publishers would nurture new talent and those days are long gone.


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## Skate (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm sure there are many fine writers amongst the cheap indies and it's only a matter of time before they become apparent. (That's my hope, anyway.) Sampling is a great idea. I find that sometimes even the blurb is enough to tell me that a story isn't going to be up to scratch. If the author can't put together a blurb that's coherent, what is the chance of the story being good? Well, that's my philosophy.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Sampling not only gives you a chance to, well, umm... sample, but also leaves the record of it, so you know where you've been. 

The only thing it's going to cost you is some time, and if that allows you to find some gems that shine, then that's a great thing.


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

This is a great thread. I haven't read it all yet, but I will.

I understand. Typos are a turn-off. They happen in any kind of book, not strictly indie. They don't bother me as long as everything is intelligible without any 'extra' effort on my part.

I love originality, or at least reading works that bend over backwards to be one-of-a-kind. The indie scene is great. I love being a part of it, watch it grow.


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## shawn p cormier (Jul 30, 2010)

The problem with many Indies is that the authors think they can rush book after book onto the market withour doing the work to make sure they are professional. Typos are only one factor, and that can be solved with some professional editing at a small cost. There's plot construction, character motivation, believable dialogue, book covers and just plain bad writing to consider as well. That said, there are many great Indie titles out there. You just have to weed through a lot of rushed titles to get to them.


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## GJThomson (May 14, 2011)

I've bought more than a few mainstream thrillers at full (paper) price, sucked in by the hype and glossy covers, that have failed to keep my interest – and it never ceases to amaze me how many errors make it in to print. Low cost ebook indies are a serious breath of fresh air. Not all are little gems, and some are quite frankly dreadful, but at such low prices (and the 80-odd page preview) you can afford to sift through a few until that one delightful surprise hits you.


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## crimescribe (Apr 27, 2011)

I have bought several low-priced titles written by indies and though I've found some typos in them, it wasn't enough disrupt the narrative flow for me. If I'm buying a book at .99 cents I can deal with that. It doesn't mean that I expect to find typos but at least I'm not paying through the nose for it if it does have them. I still think we as indies are doing ourselves a disservice if we continue to publish books like that. Eventually Amazon is going to take action, so we have to be vigilant in publishing the best edited product that we can put out there.


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## wm ollie (Aug 9, 2010)

I sample all the books before buying, as I would naturally expect and encourage someone to sample mine.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I sample everything before buying.

You really have to watch out with some of the old titles that the big publishers are putting up in a hurry. Badly scanned, formatting all over the place, they are really bad.


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

It's great when people shell out a few bucks for an indie book. Each purchase shapes the market. Just like people have decided to buy healthier items at the grocery store. Now grocery stores (even the likes of Wal-mart) are stocking healthier items for the same or even lower prices. It's one of the nice things about capitalism. The market does what people want it to do.

Buying indie's are like buying from your local market rather than going national. I very thankful for kboards. It is a great way to deliver original and fresh content to eager readers.

This whole place is very promising for people like me and you.

Ciao for now.

_[Edited. Self promotion is not allowed outside the Book Bazaar, thanks! --Betsy]_


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## Guest (May 22, 2011)

herocious said:


> Here's a short guest post I wrote on 'being indie' for The Next Best Book Club. I made full use of the bottomless coffee to write it
> 
> http://thenextbestbookblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/michael-davidson-on-being-indie.html
> 
> Ciao for now.


That is a great blog, and I enjoyed your post. Lori definitely is a great supporter.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mike McIntyre said:


> I agree.
> 
> And don't assume all traditionally-published books have been expertly edited. My first book, The Kindness of Strangers, was published by a Big 6 publisher who got me on Oprah. I had handed in what I thought was a first draft. But my manuscript went to press without a single word or punctuation mark changed.
> 
> ...


I've been lucky enough to get decent editing from my publishers (admittedly not Big 6) but the first cover I got from a publisher had to have been the ugliest thing ever conceived. I could only assume that they WANTED to kill sales. And no I'm not showing a picture of it.

For that matter, I had my novel Freedom's Sword edited by someone with a background with the Big 6. It wasn't close to a first draft but it's no secret that it's rough to proofread your own work and catch all the typos. Well, neither did she. Someone--as a favor to me--just RE-proofread it and caught about twenty typos in it. And there you have the advantage of being an indie.

I now have a newly re-proofed copy on sale. This never would have happened with a publisher.

Risk? There's a risk that there will be something wrong with any novel. If the blurb has errors, you probably don't want to look further. If the blurb is well written and interesting, exactly how much risk is there in a sample?


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## Miriam Minger (Nov 27, 2010)

I agree, sampling is a great way to check out the work of an author unknown to you.  If you love the story and the flow of the writing, odds are you'll enjoy the rest of the book.  That, and checking out the reviews always helps for a general consensus of opinion.  

Miriam Minger


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## Scott Daniel (Feb 1, 2011)

I kind of look at like dating ... sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your princess.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

For me, it's about story.  I do like a well-written story.  I recently had to delete a novel that several people had recommended for me because the writing style was just...awkward.  However, I am willing to forgive a typo or two.  I recently read a horror novel where the writer (and he is a fairly popular one) repeatedly spelled the word Volkswagon.


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, as others have said, its all about the reviews and the free sample. Even before I'd ever heard of independent publishers or direct authors I was always in the habit of reading the beginnings of books before I bought anything. I can be a picky reader!

Also, if you find some reviewers whose opinions work for you, you can check in with their blogs and see what they recommend.


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## davecleinman (Apr 13, 2011)

You guys are such a prolific group I don't think there's anything left to say.

Since I have started reviewing Indie books for my blog, I have noticed a wide range of quality.  I agree that this is really a lack of editing.  So far I have not found a bad story, however, and that I simply cannot say about traditional publishing.

It is difficult for an Indie writer to afford an editor, often, and so they do the best they can.  Unfortunately in some cases it just is not enough.  I've been wracking my brain to come up with a way to help some of these authors with their editing needs, but I can't think of a cost effective way to do it without charging them a per page, or set fee.  The very issue that most have is that they cannot afford this!  I've considered promotion exchange, but that is unreliable.  Other than that, I can't think of anything.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Dave Cleinman


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## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

I tend to sample all books before purchasing them. You can generally tell how well they're written within the first few pages.

Saying that though, just lately I've read a few books (not naming them) where I felt the author rushed the ending, giving the impression they couldn't wait to get the story finished.

Which is a shame as they were good books too.


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## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

Mel Comley said:


> I tend to sample all books before purchasing them. You can generally tell how well they're written within the first few pages.
> 
> Saying that though, just lately I've read a few books (not naming them) where I felt the author rushed the ending, giving the impression they couldn't wait to get the story finished.
> 
> Which is a shame as they were good books too.


That really bothers me when they do that. Stephen King does that a lot.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

This is such an interesting thing to look at. Personally I think it is well worth the risk. In my mind I think that reviews speak for themselves and sometimes you run the same risks with authors who are published conventionally. Why just the other day I bought a book by an author I really like. 12 bucks and I hated the book. Sometimes that's just how things go. Totally understand the frustration with spelling and grammatical error though. These are very easily fixed by just having a few beta readers. I guess, in the end, I just feel that being out .99 isn't such a bad risk.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I think if you're going to put something out there, you need to get it to be the best you can. If that means paying for an editor, you do it, otherwise you run the risk of just trashing your reputation.


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## felicityheaton (Aug 31, 2010)

Personally, I don't think price should be equated to quality. I don't price my books based on how good I think they are. I price them based on the length of the story. If it's a short story (under 30,000 words) then generally I'll price at $0.99-$1.99. I'll price novellas to barely novels (30,000 to 60,000) at $2.99, and novels at $3.99, or $4.49 if they're over 130,000 words. I think that's reasonable for the amount of editing effort and production that goes into my books.

I agree that it is a minefield out there, but you won't just find it at the $0.99 to $2.99 price range. I've read some pretty poorly produced offerings at higher prices.

You have to read the samples. I can never understand why people buy books without having a taste of them first. I wouldn't buy a paperback based on the blurb unless I knew the author and knew I loved their work. I'd read the first chapter or seek out an excerpt on their website. I think it's crazy the amount of people who don't download samples and then get burned by bad books.

I think excerpts are important, and I offer them for all of my books on my website. That way, readers can get a feel for the story and my style, and make an informed decision as to whether they're going to enjoy the story and purchase it.



Felicity


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

Samples/excerpts are definitely key. I always peruse a few pages of any book I'm thinking about reading.

Pricing is tricky.

I'm thinking aloud here:

I don't think it's fair to assume anything about the book based on the price. Low-priced indies are often priced that way because they don't want to exclude any potential readers. Low-priced indies want to be read, that is their objective, then they want to be profitable.

I have 2 versions of my book for sale. One is the physical book object for $13, for the traditional bibliophiles, and then there is the Kindle version, which I priced considerably less because after running it through edits and design issues, it requires no more investment from me, whereas the physical object requires making the book (on my kitchen table), packaging it, and mailing it.

More people have bought the physical object than the Kindle version despite the price difference.

This might seem strange to you, but the physical object is very beautiful.


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## kevinjamesbreaux (May 23, 2011)

Very much worth the risk. How else will you learn of new and upcoming authors. If the book is less than $3... seriously, less than a Starbucks... then why not give it a try. Get some $0.99 coffee at the local food store and sit back and read a few chapters. 



Kevin James Breaux


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Just a reminder, folks that this thread is in the Book Corner so no self-promotion is allowed.  That means links to personal websites or your books in the body of the post.  Such links will be deleted.  

Oblique references to books you've written are probably o.k. based on the discussion topic, but please refrain from naming titles, etc.


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## Michelle Muto (Feb 1, 2011)

I do think any indie who is serious about a career in writing should find a way or means to have their book properly edited. That's not to say the book will be perfect. It doesn't mean that it has to cost a lot of money, either. If an author cannot afford an editor, they should at least have someone VERY proficient in grammar go through their book. Print it out. Edit, proofread. Then, read it out loud before sending it off to someone for edits. I'd even repeat the printing and proofreading process twice more after getting it back. And I also cannot stress the importance of beta readers and critique partners who are not family.

A favorite editing quote: Proofread carefully to see if you any words out ~unknown. 

But, for the cost of a Starbucks (or less), I believe there are some great finds out there. Of course, I always suggest reading the description and sample chapters first. If those are riddled with errors/problems, then I'd bet the rest of the story is, too. This isn't really any different than reading jacket copy and the first few pages of a book at a bookstore. Make sure the book is truly something you are interested in reading.


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## Scott Daniel (Feb 1, 2011)

Having a good beta does really help in terms of editing, which is expensive. The range for an editor just to check for grammar and typos is about $.015 per word to $.02. "Book doctor" rates are even higher. So, for an 80,000 word novel, that's $1,200 - $1,600 just for editing. Tack on another $400 for cover art, and more for formatting ... and you can see the costs add up quickly.

This is a considerable expense for most of us. It can be a chicken and egg scenario - you want to produce the highest quality work, but you need funds to pay for it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

***let's not move the discussion into costs of editing. . . .there are plenty of threads for that in the Writer's Cafe  ***


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Even novelists I've liked in the past, I will rarely buy without sampling. We all know too many who suddenly decided THEY were to important to be edited or... whatever explains the nosedive in quality of some well-known authors. I'll buy GRR Martin's new novel without sampling it, because it's on preorder, but other than that? Nope. 

So of course, I sample the indies. Heck ones that aren't well edited often have errors in the blurb or it's poorly written. And the sample usually gives away a poor one within a page. I must admit I've read some where the editing could have used work but the story was good enough I read it anyway though.

Story trumps all (or darn close).


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

non fiction is invariably priced higher than fiction and so mine are priced based on that fact. They are still lower than the some other non fiction books in the same category, but I did sometimes wonder if they should be reduced a little more as they are downloads. They're selling, but was I losing more sales because of the price? Maybe and so I reduced one to $0.99 to see if it made a difference. Strangely, it hasn't so far and the ones selling more are the two with the highest prices. I have no idea what that says about it all


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## tim290280 (Jan 11, 2011)

davecleinman said:


> You guys are such a prolific group I don't think there's anything left to say.
> 
> Since I have started reviewing Indie books for my blog, I have noticed a wide range of quality. I agree that this is really a lack of editing. So far I have not found a bad story, however, and that I simply cannot say about traditional publishing.
> 
> ...


I haven't commented on the point, editing it costly for indies, in a lot of the threads as yet; now I will.

How about people save money to spend on the production of their book to the highest standard possible!?

There are plenty of ways to have your story edited cheaply if you have the right connections. Failing that though, if you want to publish a good novel then you should invest time and money in it. To invest the money you are probably going to have to save up from a day job or part time position. Now I've heard all of the "I'm poor and can't save money" arguments, as I have spent years as a student - postgrad students receive an insulting stipend to live off of - and these arguments are all rubbish. I was always amazed at the people who would tell me they couldn't afford X, when they made more than I did and yet I could afford X. Suffice to say, if you really want something then you can save your money to afford to be able to do it.


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## NickSpalding (Apr 21, 2010)

NoahMullette-Gillman said:


> That really bothers me when they do that. Stephen King does that a lot.


Ruin endings? Yep. I know the horror of the last few pages of The Dark Tower...


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Or the Stand. At least the 1000 pages before were execellent!


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

Like many others who have posted here, I have found and enjoyed many excellent indie reads, and I always sample first. The only exception when it comes to sampling is an author I have come to trust. If I liked the first book in a series, I might just grab the next one without sampling.


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

"Tack on another $400 for cover art, and more for formatting ... and you can see the costs add up quickly."

I am stunned, I just saw the amounts charged in this quote above for formatting and book cover art. I have a brilliant chap who does book covers and formatting for charges well under £100. He even offers a discount on those prices for those of us at Authors on Show. This isn't an ad. by the way as I get nothing from it and make no money from any of my sites, it's just because I'm stunned people have to pay so much and I want to see you get it done far cheaper if you need it. 
If you're interested, see here http://authorsonshow.com/contract-advice/


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## Peppa Swanz (May 30, 2011)

I've been reading a lot of Indie books lately (thanks to the Kindle) and yeah I've found some clunkers but also a goldmine of stuff that I really loved.  I think downloading a sample first is a good idea, but then I do that with mainstream books too...
So yes   I think they're worth the risk - A good book is a good book regardless of price.


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

Peppa Swanz said:


> I've been reading a lot of Indie books lately (thanks to the Kindle) and yeah I've found some clunkers but also a goldmine of stuff that I really loved. I think downloading a sample first is a good idea, but then I do that with mainstream books too...
> So yes  I think they're worth the risk - A good book is a good book regardless of price.


I like that you said this.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm liking it, too!


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## Joseph.Garraty (May 20, 2011)

I'm with you--typos and poor editing make me crazy. I think it's not really reasonable to expect most authors to pay a decent editor and copyeditor on royalties from a $0.99 book and make back their investment in a decent time frame (unless sales volume is very large). I'm happy to pay four or five bucks for a well-edited ebook. I look at that range as the best of both worlds--a significant price break from dead tree versions, and enough margin for the work to be decently edited and reward the author. 

Of course, as an author, I may be a little biased here.  

Fortunately, I can usually get a good idea of the quality with a little sampling. Poorly-edited stuff is usually obvious from page one.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, Joseph, samples are king! 

Another great benefit of the Kindle.


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## jherrick (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't link price to quality at all. For me, the biggest challenge is hearing about a good 99 cent (or other inexpensive) book. With so many 99 cent options out there--and multiplying daily--it seems a ton of good ones can get buried in surrounding static, unfortunately.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

jherrick said:


> I don't link price to quality at all. For me, the biggest challenge is hearing about a good 99 cent (or other inexpensive) book. With so many 99 cent options out there--and multiplying daily--it seems a ton of good ones can get buried in surrounding static, unfortunately.


But that's precisely the point. That "surrounding static" you mention is the attendant risk of buying a book that's marred by poor editing (typos, etc.) before you even get to whether you enjoy the book on its literary merits. Many great points have been made in this thread about bad apples appearing at every price point, finding unique indie books that would never pass the filters at a publishing house, the importance of sampling, etc. However, I still feel that I have more confidence in the quality of a book from a major publisher that's made some sort of bestseller list or at least a bookstore purchase decision, than the average quality of a given unfiltered 99 cent book available for download.

Yep, I can do more research and sampling. Yep, I can buy 5-10 books for the price of one and just expect a correspondingly lower yield. But that's MY additional time and aggravation. Or, at the very least, a different decision process for buying books. And maybe for reading them. I'm one of those whose habit has been to almost always finish a book once I've started. Perhaps I need to be more willing to give up on a poorly-written work and move on to the next one.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

GBear said:


> finding unique indie books that would never pass the filters at a publishing house


I've seen some epic crap that's not only made it past the filters, but also got published while still epic crap. In a lot of the more recent tradpub books I've read, it seems the quality filters have either busted or they've been set much lower, especially for editing and plot. Even though I shouldn't be, I'm more forgiving of errors in editing in indie novels (as long as they're not overpowering), especially if that book only cost me $.99 and I know the author didn't have access to a professional editor through a publishing house. I'm much more irate about it when I've spent $8.


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

samanthawarren said:


> I'm much more irate about it when I've spent $8.


Sure. And I'll be very forgiving of a book given to me by my just-retired neighbor who wants me to check out the result of his new hobby. (At least, to his face!)

There is going to be some scale of expectations based on the price and source of the book. Part of my question was based on wondering how much it really does cost to hire a professional editor. I'm not a writer, but I assume that many writers can turn out pretty errorless prose on their own with mixed literary results, while others may be geniuses but hopeless at proofreading. (I'd be in the former camp, stressing out over punctuation and spelling while delivering hopeless drivel.) Either way, there's a certain investment in time or third-party editing required to eliminate mistakes, and I think that I, as a consumer, may be willing to pay for it. But should that be fifty cents, or five dollars? At what price point should I justifiably be irate when struggling through an untrimmed thicket of errata?

Yes, sales volume will play a major role here, so there's no simple answer to this rather simple question.


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## Flash Rex (May 31, 2011)

I've read plenty of big-house house books with typos too.  Sampling would appear to be the answer as it is the Kindle equivalent of picking it of an actual shelf.  So I'd say low-priced Indies are worth the risk.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

GBear said:


> Part of my question was based on wondering how much it really does cost to hire a professional editor.


It varies immensely, but most cost at least $500. Not cheap. I couldn't afford that, but I have taken an editing course and worked as a copy editor for my college newspaper, so I was able to do at least a decent job on my novels. I also have pre-readers who help catch errors I miss and I recently discovered someone on this board who offers "oops protection" for a very reasonable price. She reads through and catches any obvious mistakes to help minimize the embarrassment factor.



> At what price point should I justifiably be irate when struggling through an untrimmed thicket of errata?


If it's an untrimmed thicket of errata, you should be irate if you paid anything at all. Mistakes happen, words will be misspelled, extra periods will be missed. But there is definitely a line, and that line is when it becomes more than just a passing "Huh, they misspelled that." When it starts to interrupt the flow of reading and distract from the story, then you have every right to be upset. Your line will clearly be different from someone elses, but the author has a responsibility to put out a piece that is the best they can do within their limits. And no matter what anyone else may argue, an unedited, unformatted piece of junk is not to the best of their ability, no matter how poor they are. There are always other authors out there willing to barter services, such as swapping editing for a decent cover or what-have-you.

And if it goes beyond an acceptable number of errors for you, do not hesitate to ask Amazon for a refund and/or contact the author. As an author, I know how embarrassing it is to have someone find errors, and I would be appreciative if readers would contact me directly so that I could fix them (in fact, one did and I'm very grateful to him for it).

I think I started rambling toward the end there, but I'm a bit tired and I know how frustrated readers get at the lack of concern some authors seem to show.


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## Joseph.Garraty (May 20, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> Yes, Joseph, samples are king!
> 
> Another great benefit of the Kindle.


Absolutely!


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## belindaf (Jan 27, 2011)

I love indie reading. Some of my new favorite books are indie and a lot of indie writers, including myself, hire editors/proofreaders to avoid being full of typos and grammatical errors. Like anything else, let the reviews guide you. What do you have to lose at under $5? If you like horror, check out An Apple for Zoe by Thomas Amo. It's a great read with characters that do not disappoint.


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## Saffina Desforges (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi guys. This is an interesting thread.

I think it is worth pointing out that some indies (and published) are suffering from a technical glitch that has been mentioned numerous times.

Sure, there is no excuse for a raft of grammatical errors and typos and we now pay for professional proof reading and editing services to ensure that reader experience is enhanced, but there is definitely a bigger issue that causes errors once uploaded. We have had readers kindly send us copies of problems that just aren't there in the version we have uploaded.

I have seen some traditionally published authors saying the same thing too. Hashes appearing, numbering problems, spaces and paragraph errors, even numbers and letters appearing mid-sentence that cannot be found in the doc uploaded.

So whilst I completely agree with you, please bear in mind that not all typos and errors are a result of indie's being lazy or not spending the money on editorial services.

And please don't let it put you off buying indie, there are some great books out there!


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

That's what I love about Kindles.  You can go to Amazon and download a sample.  Editing is key, too.  The problem with the ease of publishing nowadays is that authors rush them to the shelves instead of revising and having an editor critique their work.  You only get one shot to make a great first impression.


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## jherrick (Apr 1, 2011)

GBear said:


> However, I still feel that I have more confidence in the quality of a book from a major publisher that's made some sort of bestseller list or at least a bookstore purchase decision, than the average quality of a given unfiltered 99 cent book available for download.


Totally agree with you there. Really, anything worth doing is worth doing well (a cliche, but still). Ideally, each individual would invest integrity in his/her book before publishing it. I definitely make that one of my top priorities, since I look at it as, "If the reader is willing to invest his/her time with my book, I owe it to him/her to make it the best it can be," as do many other writers. But no doubt, in a long list of titles, that integrity will only show up in the nuances, if at all.


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

This is a hard question for me because as an indie I want to shout, "Of course it's worth it!" But I'm an avid reader too, and when I first got my Kindle I went freebie-happy and found myself completely disinterested in picking it up after a while because the quality was overwhelmingly poor. Unfortunately, there is a whole lot of poo out there. BUT, since finding Kindleboards, I've noticed that the quality of the books I download from the sig lines here are on par with or better than what I'm purchasing for twice the amount (sometimes more) with a trad pub (I still have my faves though too and I won't be giving them up any time soon). Yes, you have to be more discerning and be willing to sample until you find the writers who are worth your time. But you're also more likely to find a unique piece of work that is getting more and more rare from the big publishers because they're not willing to take a chance on something that hasn't been done before. The authors I've found on KB are dedicated to making their books the best possible reading experience and that makes a world of difference from the ones who throw together a mishmash of words, fail to edit and download thinking they'll make a few bucks with such little effort.

I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that there are places to go to make the process easier and more enjoyable, with fewer risks for downloading a real stinker... and you're already here .


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

WriterGurl1 said:


> I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that there are places to go to make the process easier and more enjoyable, with fewer risks for downloading a real stinker... and you're already here .


Couldn't have said it better myself. The authors who are just looking to make a quick buck and don't want to put in much effort are unlikely to hang out on forums such as these, and if they do, it's easy to tell who they are most of the time by their spammy posts.


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## NickSpalding (Apr 21, 2010)

Saffina Desforges said:


> Hi guys. This is an interesting thread.
> 
> I think it is worth pointing out that some indies (and published) are suffering from a technical glitch that has been mentioned numerous times.
> 
> ...


Which is why I buy my books and read the version the public will get! Waaaay too risky trusting the formatting software


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## Erick Flaig (Oct 25, 2010)

I've been buying "indie" before "indie" was cool, back in the Lulu days. Once I bought a book advertised as an epic fantasy for 99 cents. It was three hundred pages of MEOW MEOW MEOW, over and over. Literally!  The humor of it was worth more than a buck, but I would not have bought a second one from that author.

I bought another epic fantasy on Lulu. Now, you may talk about unintended hilarity, but this was full of it! We read it out loud, with tears streaming down our faces, howling like mad things trapped in a blender. It was absolutely terrible...and hilarious. But I didn't buy a second one from that author.

Every author competes with every other author, not for the reader's money, but for their time. A buck is a throw-away item now. I'm not agonizing over 99 cent purchases, but as a reader, my time is a one-way street. I don't get that back. So when I ask you as a reader to spend some time with my book, I want you to enjoy that time so much that you blow milk out of your nose.

After all, Mark Twain is right over there; he's funnier than I am. Wodehouse? Funnier, and his characters sing with life. Mine sing, but they may be 'pitchy.' Tolstoy? He understood more about life and humanity than I can dream of in my philosophy. And you can find them, and more, for free, for the Kindle or at your local library. For that matter, please continue to support your local library! Having a Kindle doesn't make you an island.  Sorry for the editorial ADHD moment..._and there goes a chicken!_


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

I've read some fabtastic indie books (and a few doozies). I don't think there's much in the way of risk - the samples are free to download and you can usually tell by the time you've read it if the book's any good. If it's riddled with errors, they're going to show in the sample, too. Plus, if you hate it when you get started, Amazon has the return policy (7 days, I believe). Go for it, I say.


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## GraceKrispy (Mar 28, 2011)

I've read over 100 indie books in the past year or so, and I have found some fantastic reads, and some not so fantastic reads. I definitely think it's worth the risk, but I think a reader has to pay attention. Reading samples is a good way to start and I sometimes look for reviews from people I trust (not just "omg, i luv this book its so awesome and im gonna read every book this author has ever written!"). When I see a book on Amazon with a bunch of 5-star ratings and look at that person's reviews and see that was the ONLY book ever rated, or EVERY book rated was 5 stars, I start to get scared  

So short answer, YES, there are most definitely indie books out there that rival and surpass those published traditionally. But there are also a ton of junky books out there, particularly with regards to editing.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

It's the unusal twists on things that indies do (that a traditional publisher wouldn't risk) that make them so worthwhile - and the cheap prices only make that doubly true!


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## Ray Rhamey author (Jan 6, 2011)

As a reader, I, too, am irritated by goofs in published books. One recent Indie by an English professor was peppered with typos and "grammos." 

However, as an Indie publisher of low-priced books, I can tell you that I work hard at making them as error free and as ripping a read as possible. For one of them, I went the extra step of hiring a copyeditor (I should add that I'm an editor, too). The manuscript came out so clean that I'm confident that the others are in very good shape. 

If the Indie book is low-priced, then I say accept the good parts and write the publisher an email about the mistakes--in ebooks, it's fairly easy to upload corrected text. I know I'd appreciate a such a note.


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## heatherjustesen (May 5, 2011)

I always sample books by authors I'm not familiar with before shelling out. If the author has edited out typos in the free sample, chances are *most* of the time, they've bothered to do a decent edit all the way to the end. That doesn't mean they won't get lazy with story structure, etc at the end, but at least you'll know if you like the characters, the voice and if the storyline seems interesting. Once I've read something I enjoy, I'm always more willing to purchase the author's next book based only on the blurb because I trust them. As an author, I'd totally take into account anyone's review saying they saw more than a couple of typos and go back through for another proof.


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## wm ollie (Aug 9, 2010)

I think this would be a good question to ask somewhere where 90 percent or more of the posters weren't authors, if a place like that even exists. I often joke that every other person on the internet is an author.

I also agree with posters who say price isn't all that important, but the time invested in reading a book is. I've read plenty of samples, sad to say I haven't gone on to buy all that many of them... then I see 12 five star reviews, and then three one stars complaining about many of the same issues being discussed here: editing, typos, weak writing and weak storylines, and it makes me wonder where the rave reviews are coming from, why they're there. Of course, I should probably sample some of these to see for myself, but I find I just don't have the time, and with so many choices out there, I find myself feeling overwhelmed with them all and tend to go back to the tried and true authors I know I can count on.

I do think being able to sample a book is a great thing, tho...


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## ascepticalmedium (Mar 18, 2011)

I am getting a little concerned about this talk of samples. Do all books on Kindle automatically come with a sample as I never did separate ones for my books? 

If they don't, can someone tell me how I go about doing samples for Kindle please. Thanks


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ascepticalmedium said:


> I am getting a little concerned about this talk of samples. Do all books on Kindle automatically come with a sample as I never did separate ones for my books?
> 
> If they don't, can someone tell me how I go about doing samples for Kindle please. Thanks


Yep. It's the nature of a book for Kindle. By default it's about 10% of the total book length though it might be possible for the publisher to request a different amount somehow. It's one of the reasons that many suggest putting a lot of the stuff that might be in the front of a paper book in the back of the e-book instead. That way the sample is more useful as it will actually include some of the story!


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

GBear said:


> I know there are tons of good indie books out there, and I know I can easily find a lousy book from a well-known publisher. However, it seems that I'm inherently accepting a larger risk of poor quality, in return for lower cost and (perhaps) more originality. I suppose it's like choosing an unknown family-run restaurant instead of a chain.
> 
> But do some of you indie authors choose to use or not use "indie editors" to improve the quality of your work and, if so, do you factor that into the price of your book? If that value is, say, $1.50, then should I just plan to "grin and bear it" for any poorly-edited book that costs less than $3?


I do pay for a professional editor from the Freelance Editors Association here in Canada, and also run the book by my critique groups. Even then, there are still one or two typos that crop up, but what I've found is that the formatting of one of my books is a little problematic for some of the e-readers, however, I have a publisher and didn't do it myself. So, if a problem crops up, then I at least pass the information onto her. The thing is, what shows up from her end is different from some of the other readers.

One of the things my print publisher was telling me is that the range of formatting quality runs a pretty large gamut, and that formatting well takes time and practice.


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## Jim Franz (May 22, 2011)

I'll admit my bias; I'm currently in the process of publishing a novel independently.

I agree with some of what has been said: try a sample if you're uncertain, read the reviews, etc.

I personally wouldn't lower the quality bar for a novel, regardless of whether I pay $.99 or $9.99 for the book.  My time is worth so much to me that I expect a quality product at any price.  Also, I bet all of us have found the occasional typo in books that are published by the Big Six.  But a book that is distracting due to typos?  That's not worth my time, at any price.

Still, I would highly recommend trying out indie books.  I've become active on the Writers' Cafe portion of this website, and it has added dozens of books to my To Be Read pile.  These books are as good as anything you would find at ten times the price, and you'd be just as hard-pressed to find a typo as you would in any traditionally published novel.  I would have hated to miss out on those reads, simply because I was worried about the quality of a book based on its price.


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## Stefanswit (May 9, 2011)

Editing issues are definitely a concern for a lot of low priced e-books out there. For me 99c is the biggest risk, although having said that, I have read a few well written and professionally edited books at that price. But for a couple of dollars more, say $2 - $3, the authors seem to be more discerning about what they publish. Well worth the extra.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

Stefanswit said:


> Editing issues are definitely a concern for a lot of low priced e-books out there. For me 99c is the biggest risk, although having said that, I have read a few well written and professionally edited books at that price. But for a couple of dollars more, say $2 - $3, the authors seem to be more discerning about what they publish. Well worth the extra.


This comment gave me a thought. Yes, there are (entirely too many) people out there who want to throw some crap up to make a quick buck (or $.35 in this case). But as Stefan mentioned, it seems that the authors who go through the effort of publishing a book at a higher price show a bit more care. The thing is, a lot of them bump the first book in a series down to $.99 to generate interest. So in theory, you could look at what else the author has published. If they're all $.99, then it might be an indication to be cautious.

On another note (and this is just thinking out loud, not really expecting an answer), I wonder if bumping that first book down to $.99 might hurt in a lot of instances. If someone sees that cheap book, they might write it off as crap to start with, without looking at what else is in the series. Food for thought, considering I was thinking of keeping a novella at $.99 permanently once June is over... Hmm....


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## Jim Franz (May 22, 2011)

Stefanswit said:


> For me 99c is the biggest risk, although having said that, I have read a few well written and professionally edited books at that price. But for a couple of dollars more, say $2 - $3, the authors seem to be more discerning about what they publish. Well worth the extra.


Speaking as an author going through that process now, my decision about what I ultimately choose to price my novel has nothing to do with how clean my manuscript is, how many drafts I've written, nor how professionally edited it has been; instead, it's based on how interested I am in growing my readership. If I believe I can entice more readers at 99c than 2.99, I'll use 99c. It's a business and market-based decision, not quality-based.

I might be the exception, though, which is why I'd still encourage readers to do what I do: sample everything you're unsure about!


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## Kali.Amanda (Apr 30, 2011)

I am an indie writer and I have had at least one editor check out my work. There is still a possibility that a typo may escape several eyes, but it is absolutely unacceptable to be saddled with a work that is riddled with grammatical and spelling errors. But as several others have pointed out, I'd start by downloading the sample and if it grabs you, then purchase it. Not all authors will offer samples and I would be a little suspicious of these.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

samanthawarren said:


> This comment gave me a thought. Yes, there are (entirely too many) people out there who want to throw some crap up to make a quick buck (or $.35 in this case). But as Stefan mentioned, it seems that the authors who go through the effort of publishing a book at a higher price show a bit more care. The thing is, a lot of them bump the first book in a series down to $.99 to generate interest. So in theory, you could look at what else the author has published. If they're all $.99, then it might be an indication to be cautious.
> 
> On another note (and this is just thinking out loud, not really expecting an answer), I wonder if bumping that first book down to $.99 might hurt in a lot of instances. If someone sees that cheap book, they might write it off as crap to start with, without looking at what else is in the series. Food for thought, considering I was thinking of keeping a novella at $.99 permanently once June is over... Hmm....


It is something to think about and I've pondered it myself for, quite frankly, far too long. The answer seems to be in the sales figures. When I put the price on my first book to $2.99 the sales drop by a factor of 10. So, if the game is about building a readership, then I would have to go with the 99 cent price, despite it being a full length professionally edited novel.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

That being said, if you're really cheap (free or 99 cents) you will get a lot of curiosity buys you'd never otherwise get, some of whom will not and never would have liked your work, but will take a chance because they like _some _ fantasy (or genre), even if it turns out that they don't like _your _ fantasy (or genre) and then go on to review it. This can be it's own negative.

Still, you have to believe that in the long run that quality will shine.

My first title made the bestseller list (albeit briefly) upon release at Borders Australia, hitting the heady heights of number 16. In Australia DTB (trade paperbacks) cost a lot (+$30 AUD), so for a reader to so casually buy the same book as a Kindle download for 99 cents seems almost like sacrilege (the Australian $ and US $ are close enough to be considered of equal value).

The way I see it, my first trilogy is like a welcome mat for readers. Next year I'll be launching 3 more series and they're not likely to be selling that cheaply.


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## Matt Maxwell (Jun 5, 2011)

At this point, it's not the price as much as my time that's the major consideration. At least in picking up new books. The trick is teasing out from the sample whether or not the book will end up being worth my time. If that sounds elitist, sorry. I have my own work (taking care of the kids and my wife), my own job (which is writing, but a collaborative thing), my own writing and then "free time." I don't get a lot of that. So the price tag isn't the biggest obstacle.

That said, I still have a hard time pricing anything below the 2.99 threshold. It irks me that Amazon could make twice on the transaction what I do as the author. Now, I could be wrongheaded about this. But if .99 is the new impulse buy threshold with .35 of that coming back to the author, that's a tough pill to swallow unless you're doing tremendous numbers. Such tremendous numbers that raising the price wouldn't crash things.

My view now, and I'll admit I'm new at this. It could change with experience. And clubbings. Lots of clubbings.


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## philvan (May 26, 2010)

Gosh, should I price my 13,000 word novelette at $2.99 to avoid the stigma of being 'cheap' and probably riddled with errors? Or continue to list it at $0.99 and hope any reader will have first read the available sample? Then of course, mine is written with a 19th Century English vocabulary and style, so many will find unfamiliar spelling; better to have decided not to buy, than to buy and then discover you don't like something.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

Matt Maxwell said:


> At this point, it's not the price as much as my time that's the major consideration. At least in picking up new books. The trick is teasing out from the sample whether or not the book will end up being worth my time. If that sounds elitist, sorry. I have my own work (taking care of the kids and my wife), my own job (which is writing, but a collaborative thing), my own writing and then "free time." I don't get a lot of that. So the price tag isn't the biggest obstacle.


That's not elitist at all. There are a gajillion books out there that I won't like. I'm not going to waste my time reading something I don't enjoy. No one should. That's why samples are crucial. Honestly, I don't feel bad for anyone who buys a book they hate w/o reading the sample first. It's there for a reason.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

samanthawarren said:


> That's not elitist at all. There are a gajillion books out there that I won't like. I'm not going to waste my time reading something I don't enjoy. No one should. That's why samples are crucial. Honestly, I don't feel bad for anyone who buys a book they hate w/o reading the sample first. It's there for a reason.


I agree completely!

Doubly with the last bit!


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## NapCat (retired) (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks to the KB, I am having my eyes opened to the Indie World.........there is Sooooo much talent out there.  I really appreciate the reviews and referrals from board members.


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## Michelle Muto (Feb 1, 2011)

For me, the same rule applies to indie books as it anything coming out of NYC - the blurb has to catch my attention. Then, I'll download the free sample. If the sample works for me, I buy the book. 

It's kind of like going to the book store - I see a book, read the jacket copy. If that intrigues me, I'll read the first few pages or chapter. If I'm hooked, I buy the book. I've never walked into a bookstore and bought a book on cover, author name, or price alone. Okay, I confess that I bought sequels to books I love without reading blurbs/samples, but never the first in a series. I'm speaking of the Harry Potter series specifically here. 

I even read samples from my favorite authors before I buy.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Checking Kindle samples is just another kind of browsing. It doesn't take long to get in the habit and it's a great way to find some gems you'd otherwise probably never buy. I love it!


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