# Hamilton Lawsuit, discussion & funding -- merged thread.



## PhoenixS

*NOV 29 UPDATE:* http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252500.msg3599299.html#msg3599299

Donations for legal fees being taken at: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

To make a direct donation via PayPal (Christina will update the gofundme page manually), use "friends & family": christina{at}christinagarner.com

_____________

ORIGINAL POST (June 19, 2017):

I'm posting the following as follow-up for the folk who donated to Christina's legal fund via gogetfunding.
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,250747.0.html

Much of the money has already been put to use.

Today, Rebecca Hamilton and QBW Services were served with a civil lawsuit citing:

1) BREACH OF WRITTEN AGREEMENT;

(2) BREACH OF IMPLIED COVENANTS OF GOOD FAITH AND FAIR DEALING;

(3) FRAUD;

(4) UNJUST ENRICHMENT;

(5) LIBEL PER SE; and

(6) DEFAMATION

Details of the case as they accrue will be posted publicly at:
http://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?casetype=civil

You'll need to enter the case number: BC664530

It's my understanding as well that Rebecca's Amazon account was terminated last month, and that it has not been reinstated. Others likely know more about the details around the new LLC the box sets are now being published under via Pronoun.

Christina will be along later to answer what questions she can. It's early yet in the suit, and there will some things she won't be able to discuss. So please keep that in mind. Right now, she just wants to assure those who donated that their money is in fact being used for the legal fees intended.


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## Krista D. Ball

Thanks for the update.


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## MonkeyScribe

Banned by Amazon sounds like an indie's worst nightmare. Sounds like a good lesson for always being on the up and up. Behave in a shady way with your business and sooner or later it will catch up to you.


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## Rick Gualtieri

Thanks for the update.


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## ChristinaGarner

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to once again say a heartfelt thank you for the outpouring of support I've received since all of this went public.

The financial donations made it possible to finally hold Rebecca accountable for her actions, and the messages of support have been more helpful than I can say during what has been a very stressful time.

Thank you all very much.

If you have any questions, I'll answer what I can. I'm limited in what I can say at this time, but this has been a community effort, and it's my intention to include those interested as much as possible.


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## Queen Mab

Hi Christina,

Wow, this is a big deal. I guess I'm just curious: will Rebecca be able to "settle"?


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## ChristinaGarner

Gabriella West said:


> Hi Christina,
> 
> Wow, this is a big deal. I guess I'm just curious: will Rebecca be able to "settle"?


She had the opportunity to settle in May when we sent the demand letter. She chose not to respond.


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## unkownwriter

Thanks for the update. I think her account being banned hasn't really slowed her down much. Already found some ways around it, which may or may not have been reported to Amazon.


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## GeneDoucette

Thank you for the update!


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## Morgan Worth

Thanks so much for keeping us updated!


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## 75814

Thanks for the update. Good luck with this, Christina.


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## 39416

I'm confused. Is this a different Rebecca Hamilton?

_edit -- link removed. The thread is only for purposes of keeping interested parties informed about the status of the case and we will NOT allow links to publications still available that rebecca may be connected to as that's off topic for the thread, thanks. -- Mod Team_


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## writemore

loraininflorida said:


> I'm confused. Is this a different Rebecca Hamilton?


I think she used to have more books. Some of those look like they are actually published by the co-author.

Good luck with everything Christina!

_edited quoted post._


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## PhoenixS

Rebecca's *KDP *account was terminated. I should have been more precise.

The ebooks on her author page are published by other accounts. The cowritten books with Jasmine Walt presumably are under Jasmine's account. One of the titles is small-press pubbed. The Magic After Dark box has one of her books in it so she can claim it through her Author Central account, but it's pubbed through Pronoun. Her print and audio are also unaffected. But all ebooks via KDP are gone.


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## Lydniz

Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## 41419

PhoenixS said:


> Rebecca's *KDP *account was terminated. I should have been more precise.
> 
> The ebooks on her author page are published by other accounts. The cowritten books with Jasmine Walt presumably are under Jasmine's account. One of the titles is small-press pubbed. The Magic After Dark box has one of her books in it so she can claim it through her Author Central account, but it's pubbed through Pronoun. Her print and audio are also unaffected. But all ebooks via KDP are gone.


I guess that puts a giant hole in the "Amazon doesn't have a problem with it" defense.


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## ......~......

Amazon actually terminated her KDP account? Color me pleasantly surprised. 

I wonder if some of her proteges are next? It'd be nice if the scammers were cleared out before I finally publish my UF novels, but that's probably too much to hope for. Scammers always find a way...


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## alawston

NeedWant said:


> Amazon actually terminated her KDP account? Color me pleasantly surprised.
> 
> I wonder if some of her proteges are next? It'd be nice if the scammers were cleared out before I finally publish my UF novels, but that's probably too much to hope for. Scammers always find a way...


They find a way, or they find a new scam.


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## dianapersaud

NeedWant said:


> Amazon actually terminated her KDP account? Color me pleasantly surprised.
> 
> I wonder if some of her proteges are next? It'd be nice if the scammers were cleared out before I finally publish my UF novels, but that's probably too much to hope for. *Scammers always find a way...*


And make things more difficult for the rest of us.

Google's answer to the scammers was to shut down access. I doubt Amazon will go that far. If a scammer is going to bypass KDP and use a distributor (like Pronoun) to get back on Amazon, they won't last long. After all, Amazon will still be able to catch rank manipulation IF they are looking for it.

In a previous life, I uncovered an international fraud scheme and brought it to the attention of the Executive team. I was told the FBI was monitoring it and to allow the fraudsters to continue doing what they were doing. Apparently they (FBI) wanted to give them enough rope to hang themselves with before they made their move.

Just because nothing is being done doesn't mean people aren't aware of the problem.


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## J.A. Sutherland

For those wishing to read the complaint but lacking an LA County Courts account (and their ridiculous fees): https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc75q2r5p7iwree/HamiltonCaseComplaint.pdf?dl=1


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## Rick Gualtieri

ChristinaGarner said:


> She had the opportunity to settle in May when we sent the demand letter. She chose not to respond.


Fight the good fight.


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## Gertie Kindle

J.A. Sutherland said:


> For those wishing to read the complaint but lacking an LA County Courts account (and their ridiculous fees): https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc75q2r5p7iwree/HamiltonCaseComplaint.pdf?dl=1


Thanks for posting that. Very interesting reading.


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## Becca Mills

Folks, after some discussion, the forum staff feels it's probably best not to extensively discuss an ongoing legal case. That said, we know many members are interested in this matter, and we invite Christina to post updates as the case develops in concrete ways. 

Edit: I've removed a handful of posts that get into the legality/ethics of using famous authors' names in promo activities, since this topic (while interesting) leads the thread away from Christina's case.


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## 864

After further discussion, we've decided to reopen this thread. We ask that it remain _specifically focused_ on Christina's legal case rather than other issues related to Rebecca Hamilton. We have already hosted one lengthy and very difficult thread about RH and we feel that thread was enough.


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## Elizabeth Ann West

I appreciate the thread being reopened.


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## MarilynVix

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I appreciate the thread being reopened.


I also appreciate this thread being reopened and being allowed to discuss the legal discussion that goes along with the case. I also appreciate the other links to the actual paperwork filed in California and am following how this will play out. I remember hearing about the troubles going on with some box sets, but didn't know the names involved. It's always good to see what happens with other people when they are dealing with things like this, ie box sets, and how to avoid issues in the future.

I also remember when Amazon changed the rules for box sets, and I think that's when things got all crazy with the situation. It's interesting to see how this has all led to a law suit like this. Thanks again for allowing the posts to go on for those of us on the board that have been following this issue.


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## MyraScott

Christina,

Rebecca Hamilton states that the papers were incorrectly sent to her instead of her lawyer.  Can you tell us what happened with that? 

Thanks!


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## Guest

MyraScott said:


> Rebecca Hamilton states that the papers were incorrectly sent to her instead of her lawyer. Can you tell us what happened with that?


I believe in most states the papers are supposed to be served to the defendant directly. Why would she think they were supposed to go to her lawyer? In the majority of cases, the plaintiff wouldn't even know who the attorney was until after the fact.


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## 75814

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I believe in most states the papers are supposed to be served to the defendant directly. Why would she think they were supposed to go to her lawyer? In the majority of cases, the plaintiff wouldn't even know who the attorney was until after the fact.


That's correct, papers are served in person directly to the defendant. I have no idea why she thinks it goes to the lawyer, but that's absolutely false.


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## J.A. Sutherland

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I believe in most states the papers are supposed to be served to the defendant directly. Why would she think they were supposed to go to her lawyer? In the majority of cases, the plaintiff wouldn't even know who the attorney was until after the fact.


Yes. Only after the first service and an attorney has filed a notice of appearance would further filings go to the attorney.


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## J.A. Sutherland

MyraScott said:


> Rebecca Hamilton states that the papers were incorrectly sent to her instead of her lawyer. Can you tell us what happened with that?


Also, the appropriate response when served something like this is to send it to one's attorney and then SHUT THE F UP!

Clients who talk publicly about ongoing cases are an attorney's nightmare and the opposition's dream.


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## MyraScott

Rebecca Hamilton has also stated she is planning to have the case moved to Federal court.  Since it was filed in CA, it would still be in CA as a Federal case.  Does anyone know how that changes the stakes?  It wouldn't be the venue, obviously.


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## Elizabeth Ann West

The only thing I can wonder is if it's because the QBW LLC still has a Florida address? But then again, if no one is actually there to be served, that's a whole different kind of problem. 

I read the same thing as you did Myra as I think the Genre Crave stuff is being handed out like tissues. I was really surprised Rebecca is saying her lawyer wants to take this to Federal court. Maybe those who were/are lawyers can explain if there's some kind of advantage to doing that? I would think it would be a bad idea with the stuff we now know about Paypal and how much of the business was conducted through Family and Friends . . . but I don't know, would Federal court bring more protections to a defendant business?


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## D A Bale

MyraScott said:


> Rebecca Hamilton has also stated she is planning to have the case moved to Federal court. Since it was filed in CA, it would still be in CA as a Federal case. Does anyone know how that changes the stakes? It wouldn't be the venue, obviously.


Not necessarily. Once a case has been removed to the federal courts, venue could be changed to another jurisdiction by request. Is it still the case though that state filings can only be removed to federal filings if they should've been federally filed in the first place?


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## J.A. Sutherland

MyraScott said:


> Rebecca Hamilton has also stated she is planning to have the case moved to Federal court. Since it was filed in CA, it would still be in CA as a Federal case. Does anyone know how that changes the stakes? It wouldn't be the venue, obviously.


Removing to Federal court could potentially disrupt a plaintiff's trial strategy. 
Federal juries are sometimes believed to award lower damages (as they're drawn from rural areas as well).
There are somewhat more limited rules of discovery.
There's a belief they're more inclined to grant motions of dismissal and summary judgment. 
There are also, as of today, 105 Federal judgeships vacant -- roughly 15% -- sometimes making Federal much slower than State.

So here's a common scenario: Removed to Federal Court. Defense files Motion to Dismiss. Motion sits for a very long time, during which some (not all) Federal districts don't allow discovery to proceed. End result: long, long delay during which the plaintiff can't get the discovery info -- followed by more long delays for each motion and hearing.


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## inconsequential

Just because someone asks to have their case moved to federal court, does that automatically mean it will happen? Or could the request be denied?


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## ChristinaGarner

Just want to chime in that J.A. is correct about keeping quiet.  Because so many in the community have donated and are invested either financially or emotionally, I spoke with my attorney at length about what I can share and what I can't. She was very clear that we would not be sharing strategy. But she absolutely gave me the OK to share things after they happened. Which is why I did not announce that the lawsuit had been filed until after Rebecca had been served.  

Just to state for the record, all procedures were followed properly and she was served correctly. Neither my attorney nor myself has any way of knowing who her lawyer is or if she even has one. She has made a public claim that I was served with a letter from her attorney in the past, but that did not happen. I can't claim she didn't write one, or have an attorney write one, I can just say as 100% fact that I did not receive it. My prior attorney did request the contact information for what she called her "legal team"  and she declined to provide it. Still, as has been noted above, the lawsuit would be served to her regardless. 

With regards to QBW Services LCC,  when the process server attempted to serve the Florida address listed,  The person at the establishment refused service and said the address was no longer valid. The process server then attempted at the forwarding address that was provided and again was turned away. We were given no other choice but to serve the LLC paperwork to her home address. She is certainly able to have her attorney file a motion to contest that service, but it will not affect the outcome of the case in the least.


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## 75814

J.A. Sutherland said:


> So here's a common scenario: Removed to Federal Court. Defense files Motion to Dismiss. Motion sits for a very long time, during which some (not all) Federal districts don't allow discovery to proceed. End result: long, long delay during which the plaintiff can't get the discovery info -- followed by more long delays for each motion and hearing.


So seems like it's a delaying tactic.



inconsequential said:


> Just because someone asks to have their case moved to federal court, does that automatically mean it will happen? Or could the request be denied?


I'm pretty sure the request has to be approved or denied, but JA seems to be very knowledgeable about this, so I'm sure I'll be told if I'm wrong.



ChristinaGarner said:


> Just want to chime in that J.A. is correct about keeping quiet. Because so many in the community have donated and are invested either financially or emotionally, I spoke with my attorney at length about what I can share and what I can't. She was very clear that we would not be sharing strategy. But she absolutely gave me the OK to share things after they happened. Which is why I did not announce that the lawsuit had been filed until after Rebecca had been served.


Thanks for getting permission from your lawyer to keep us updated.


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## 39416

When our legal system was created, if someone lived in one state sued you, a person who lived in another state, in _his_ home 
state, it was feared that that person would have a home-town advantage over you (the out-of-stater) in his state court. So, the rule was made that you, the out-of-stater defendant, could remove the case to federal court where it was presumed you would get a fairer shake (it's called "diversity"). (The colonies-turned-states didn't trust each other a whole lot.) Nowadays to keep out the piddly stuff however, federal courts require that the amount of $$ in controversy has to be at least $75,000.

Any prospective defendant (someone who knew a lawsuit was coming) who did not know that they would be the one to receive service of the Complaint, not their lawyer, is not someone I would believe is receiving legal advice.

Federal cases are expensive and long. The common way a defendant deals with being served with an expensive lawsuit is to just file a Notice of Bankruptcy which pretty much makes the whole thing go _phttt_. Or, they can just ignore the whole thing, let a default judgment be entered against them, which if they are "judgement proof" (i.e. broke or have hidden their assets), makes that judgment a "paper judgment" --not something that can be collected on.


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## David VanDyke

From my perspective, as someone not party to the suit but who contributed because I believe it sends an important message to people in our business, I mainly hope there is a judgment against the defendant for any proven wrongdoing. That is to say, if she engaged in misconduct, she should be held accountable as a way of deterring others. And I hope anyone she's defrauded gets compensated.

As I understand it, a judgment will stand forever and any money she ever makes in this business might be subject to garnishment or whatever the legal term is. So, this would be a good thing, as if she is convicted of wrongdoing, we don't want her to continue to do business in digital publishing.


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## 75814

David VanDyke said:


> From my perspective, as someone not party to the suit but who contributed because I believe it sends an important message to people in our business, I mainly hope there is a judgement against the plaintiff for any proven wrongdoing. That is to say, if she engaged in misconduct, she should be held accountable as a way of deterring others. And I hope anyone she's defrauded gets compensated.


I think you mean judgment against the defendant.


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## N. D. Iverson

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> The only thing I can wonder is if it's because the QBW LLC still has a Florida address? But then again, if no one is actually there to be served, that's a whole different kind of problem.
> 
> I read the same thing as you did Myra as I think the* Genre Crave stuff* is being handed out like tissues. I was really surprised Rebecca is saying her lawyer wants to take this to Federal court. Maybe those who were/are lawyers can explain if there's some kind of advantage to doing that? I would think it would be a bad idea with the stuff we now know about Paypal and how much of the business was conducted through Family and Friends . . . but I don't know, would Federal court bring more protections to a defendant business?


I apologize if this is off topic, but does anyone know if GenreCrave will be effected? I have a couple of promos booked with them for my new release and now I'm concerned...


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## Rick Gualtieri

N. D. Iverson said:


> I apologize if this is off topic, but does anyone know if GenreCrave will be effected? I have a couple of promos booked with them for my new release and now I'm concerned...


The courts don't move nearly that fast.


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## N. D. Iverson

Rick Gualtieri said:


> The courts don't move nearly that fast.


Very true. So as far as you know, their regular promos on GenreCrave are still up and running? Had I known about all this, I would have never spent the money...


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## Rick Gualtieri

N. D. Iverson said:


> Very true. So as far as you know, their regular promos on GenreCrave are still up and running? Had I known about all this, I would have never spent the money...


I've never done business with them, so I can't answer that. Just saying that any effect the court case will have, probably won't happen for a while.


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## Monique

N. D. Iverson said:


> Very true. So as far as you know, their regular promos on GenreCrave are still up and running? Had I known about all this, I would have never spent the money...


You can always try to request a refund and cancel them.


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## Moist_Tissue

I know mods have requested to not talk about RH directly, but I hope they allow this response considering N.D. Iverson's question. If it is true her Amazon account was terminated, I would consider if Amazon has awareness of ongoing promo activities and accounts associated. I mention this because of that Free promo dite which triggered warnings for those avcounts that used their services.


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## PhoenixS

loraininflorida said:


> Federal cases are expensive and long. The common way a defendant deals with being served with an expensive lawsuit is to just file a Notice of Bankruptcy which pretty much makes the whole thing go _phttt_. Or, they can just ignore the whole thing, let a default judgment be entered against them, which if they are "judgement proof" (i.e. broke or have hidden their assets), makes that judgment a "paper judgment" --not something that can be collected on.


My layman's understanding is that you can't file for bankruptcy simply to avoid a lawsuit. That there would have to be sufficient other debt/creditors outstanding as well. There might be a temporary delay while the creditor/plaintiff files a motion to lift the stay, but those few days' relief might well pale to how unkindly a judge might look upon someone using that tactic. But IANAL, just an interested bystander, nor do I presume to know legal strategy on either side. That is what legal counsel gets paid the big bucks for.

ETA: I think some lawsuit claims -- possibly including a couple within this suit -- are non-dischargeable regardless, so even if bankruptcy were filed and upheld, it's possible the suit could still go forward. (Again, IANAL.)


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## N. D. Iverson

Monique said:


> You can always try to request a refund and cancel them.


Judging from this case, it sounds like I probably wouldn't get one...


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## Monique

N. D. Iverson said:


> Judging from this case, it sounds like I probably wouldn't get one...


Doesn't hurt to ask. She's under a lot of scrutiny right now, you might actually be more likely than ever to get one.


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## J.A. Sutherland

Bankruptcy discharges current debt not future. Until a lawsuit is finished, there's nothing for a bankruptcy to discharge. I.e. no monies are owed.

Theoretically the real debt (say unrefunded payments) could be discharged, but one would then be admitting the allegation. But the damages for things like defamation don't exist until there's a judgment.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## cdk

Bankruptcy isn't always the answer.  Generally, punitive damages are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and the complaint in this case seeks punitive damages.


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## ........

Page 52 of that complaint is a doozy.


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## 39416

The filing of a bankruptcy petition stops the lawsuit. The bankruptcy judge can discharge debt from a pending lawsuit. What usually happens though is that the Defendant doesn't respond to the lawsuit, lets it go to default judgment, and only then shells out the money to file for bankruptcy, which will discharge the default judgment.

It is extraordinarily difficult to get a judge to give permission to ask a jury to award punitives. Listing punitives in a Complaint is usually just boilerplate legal language. While I thoroughly support anyone who feels they've been wronged to file suit, the reality is, if you are not filing against a deep pocket, an actual monetary recovery is not to be counted on. That's why lawyers won't take these cases on a contingency basis.


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## Vidya

does anyone have any idea how long this case could go on? Could it be over in months? Might it go on for years?


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## David VanDyke

Perry Constantine said:


> I think you mean judgment against the defendant.


I absolutely do. Mea culpa. I have edited.


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## unkownwriter

@loraininflorida:  I'm not speaking for Christine, and I have no dog in this hunt other than as someone who wants scamming and other unethical behaviors to be ended, but sometimes it's not about the money, it's about seeing that justice is done. So winning punitive damages may not be the ultimate goal, but legal wrangling.

Anyway, I don't see how RH filing bankruptcy could stop a lawsuit, one which hasn't been brought to court, much less been resolved. That seems like it would be unfair to those filing the suit, as they won't get their day in court. I'm sure Christina's lawyer is on top of any play like that.


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## J.A. Sutherland

loraininflorida said:


> The filing of a bankruptcy petition stops the lawsuit. The bankruptcy judge can discharge debt from a pending lawsuit. What usually happens though is that the Defendant doesn't respond to the lawsuit, lets it go to default judgment, and only then shells out the money to file for bankruptcy, which will discharge the default judgment.
> 
> It is extraordinarily difficult to get a judge to give permission to ask a jury to award punitives. Listing punitives in a Complaint is usually just boilerplate legal language. While I thoroughly support anyone who feels they've been wronged to file suit, the reality is, if you are not filing against a deep pocket, an actual monetary recovery is not to be counted on. That's why lawyers won't take these cases on a contingency basis.


Interesting. And Florida does have a liberal homestead. Still, the big items ($25k in damages asked for) are libel & defamation -- which are hard to prove, and intentional torts, so not dischargable, right?


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## Guest

loraininflorida said:


> The filing of a bankruptcy petition stops the lawsuit. The bankruptcy judge can discharge debt from a pending lawsuit. What usually happens though is that the Defendant doesn't respond to the lawsuit, lets it go to default judgment, and only then shells out the money to file for bankruptcy, which will discharge the default judgment.


Recent changes to bankruptcy law over the last few years have made it harder to get things discharged. Many courts are highly resistant to allowing Chapter 7 filings (which would liquefy all debt) if they think it is being done just to avoid paying a judgment. And as J.A. pointed out, any fines, penalties, or restitution ordered for willfully breaking the law is exempt from discharge. SO if they can prove libel and a judge orders restitution, bankruptcy won't save anyone.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for all the updates. I think there is a book in all this


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## cdk

> It is extraordinarily difficult to get a judge to give permission to ask a jury to award punitives. Listing punitives in a Complaint is usually just boilerplate legal language. While I thoroughly support anyone who feels they've been wronged to file suit, the reality is, if you are not filing against a deep pocket, an actual monetary recovery is not to be counted on. That's why lawyers won't take these cases on a contingency basis.


I have over 25 years of experience as an attorney, all in criminal law, and all in Southern California. I have absolutely zero experience in bankruptcy and federal courts. I have tried exactly 1 civil case in my life, which coincidentally was for libel and conversion 2 years ago outside my usual sphere of influence in Northern California. I took a leave of absence from my job and represented the plaintiff pro bono and got a verdict for $600K, $400K in punitive damages related to the libel. Admittedly, I didn't come into the case until the end to try the case, so I'm unfamiliar with the pretrial proceedings and status conferences that took place before I arrived, but I don't recall the plaintiff requesting permission to seek punitives or it being difficult to prove, although it does require the higher clear and convincing burden of proof.

Maybe punitive damages is standard boilerplate language in a lot of complaints, but libel is the type of cause of action where there's usually some claim of malicious behavior and intent to harm a person's reputation, otherwise, why make the alleged libelous comment. So punitive damages in a complaint for libel is not likely to be the usual run-of-the-mill boilerplate language.

I have zero experience in bankruptcy, but I've been told that a bankruptcy filing stops everything. But my understanding is that's only a temporary solution for a party if the bankruptcy court grants a request to lift the automatic stay.

And I think you're absolutely right that monetary recovery cannot be counted on, which is why I think it was wise for the complaint in this case not to seek an exorbitant amount in damages.

Btw, does anyone know who the judge is or what courtroom the case is in?


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Filing bankruptcy in bad faith to defeat litigation would be a bad move, especially while building a house. And with both an individual and the business being named, it would be a poor maneuver on many levels.


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## ChristinaGarner

cdk said:


> Btw, does anyone know who the judge is or what courtroom the case is in?


I haven't confirmed with my attorney, but from the handwriting on the complaint I believe it might be Hon. Frederick C. Shaller.


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## ChristinaGarner

Hi everyone. I just wanted to give you the update on what's been going on.

A few days before the deadline for Rebecca to file a response (either an answer or motion to dismiss) my attorney was contacted for the first time by her attorney's office. They requested a two-week extension for filing and as a courtesy, my attorney complied.

Instead of a response, they have filed a motion to quash. Here are the links to the documents my attorney received on July 31st.

Rebecca's sworn declaration of not having business dealings in California, etc:

https://www.docdroid.net/XwbwDjQ/decl-of-raywood-73117.pdf

The motion to quash:

https://www.docdroid.net/1SB2q7m/mtn-to-quash-service-of-summons-73117-1.pdf#page=15

And a signed statement by an attorney in Georgia:

https://www.docdroid.net/1QwbKvw/decl-of-woodrum-73117.pdf#page=2

I can't say much more, but with so many of you invested (either financially, emotionally, or both) I wanted to make sure to update you.

All I will say is that there is no defense here--no assertion that she didn't libel me or break contracts, just that California courts are crowded, California is an inconvenient venue for her, and that she does almost no business in California. Make of that what you will.

Thank you again to all who have shown me such amazing support. I couldn't have done or continue to do this without you.


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## MyraScott

I'd say lawsuits in general are pretty inconvenient. Especially when you are using delay tactics.  When did that get to have legal standing to quash a case? 

When does this go before a judge?


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## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> I'd say lawsuits in general are pretty inconvenient. Especially when you are using delay tactics. When did that get to have legal standing to quash a case?
> 
> When does this go before a judge?


The hearing is August 31.


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## Rick Gualtieri

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a weak sauce argument to me, considering the nature of online commerce, but of course IANAL.


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## MyraScott

I'm curious how Rebecca can claim to not do business in CA when her co-author and co-promoter Jasmine Walt lives in Los Angeles.  And if she's ever had a book or promoted a book that's on Google Play or Apple iBooks... she's working with California companies. 

If you lived in say, North Dakota, I could see claiming that you rarely do business there (no offense North Dakota) but California?  I'd say the burden of proof is on her to prove that.


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## 91831

Sorry, I'm from the UK, so the court system is very different here to there. As to my limited understanding of law, in the UK we tend not to have things done in the same area as the defendant as it can be bias towards them (either for or against).  Why would the court system there allow such a thing in potential favour to the defendant?


----------



## CABarrett

evdarcy said:


> Sorry, I'm from the UK, so the court system is very different here to there. As to my limited understanding of law, in the UK we tend not to have things done in the same area as the defendant as it can be bias towards them (either for or against). Why would the court system there allow such a thing in potential favour to the defendant?


Our legal precedent (cases where judges have said how to apply the law) is all limited geographically. I'm not very familiar with UK law but I think Scots Law is a good analogy. Our states each have their own laws, so that's a major reason for the overall structure. We have federal laws that are nation-wide, but we don't want any single judge to make a big change to the law, so the federal courts are divided into circuits, and appellate judge's decisions only apply to their own circuit (although they will consider the decisions from other circuits, they are not required to follow them).

Also USA is geographically enormous (and California and Florida are as far as you can get). You can ask local people who have heard of the case to leave when the jury is being picked, and you can can request a different venue if you think everyone is prejudiced against you, so we do have safeguards against bias.


----------



## 91831

CABarrett said:


> Our legal precedent (cases where judges have said how to apply the law) is all limited geographically. I'm not very familiar with UK law but I think Scots Law is a good analogy. Our states each have their own laws, so that's a major reason for the overall structure. We have federal laws that are nation-wide, but we don't want any single judge to make a big change to the law, so the federal courts are divided into circuits, and appellate judge's decisions only apply to their own circuit (although they will consider the decisions from other circuits, they are not required to follow them).
> 
> Also USA is geographically enormous (and California and Florida are as far as you can get). You can ask local people who have heard of the case to leave when the jury is being picked, and you can can request a different venue if you think everyone is prejudiced against you, so we do have safeguards against bias.


Thanks for that CA. I must admit, despite the fact we speak the same languages, our countries are so vastly different that there are a fair few... WTF... moments sometimes. (Case in point discussion of the UK health system in US media recently with our 'death panels'.

Watching this with vested interest.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> I'm curious how Rebecca can claim to not do business in CA when her co-author and co-promoter Jasmine Walt lives in Los Angeles. And if she's ever had a book or promoted a book that's on Google Play or Apple iBooks... she's working with California companies.
> 
> If you lived in say, North Dakota, I could see claiming that you rarely do business there (no offense North Dakota) but California? I'd say the burden of proof is on her to prove that.


This doesn't make any sense. Her business has nothing to do with the California market? Good luck trying to prove that nonsense.


----------



## alawston

evdarcy said:


> Sorry, I'm from the UK, so the court system is very different here to there. As to my limited understanding of law, in the UK we tend not to have things done in the same area as the defendant as it can be bias towards them (either for or against). Why would the court system there allow such a thing in potential favour to the defendant?


Actually I'm not sure this is right. My understanding is that you're tried in your nearest court. If I was put in the cells for being drunk and disorderly tonight (slim possibility I guess  ), it would be a London magistrate fining me in the morning. Similarly if I was on a more serious criminal charge, I'd expect to be tried at Kingston Crown Court, or possibly Southwark, depending on where the offence took place.

IANAL, but I have served on a jury, as has my mother, and in both scenarios we were dealing with cases that were very "local".


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

In the U.S., court is held in the area of complaint; if I get a speeding ticket in VA and want to dispute it, I have to attend court there even though I live in CT. To avoid the costs of travel, legal fees, etc, I'd be better off just paying the ticket.

I'd really like to see less unethical business practices in our industry. Unfortunately there can be a lot of delays in court, which makes it frustrating to say the least. Hang in there, Christina.


----------



## LurkingUnderARock

Did I read the motion to quash right? Page 9 lines 5-7, specifically the "Raywood does not even write the books that ultimately get marketed under these contracts?" Does that mean that when she includes her books in the sets she has a different contract with herself? Or is it what I thought when I first read the sentence, which is that she is claiming that none of her sets have contained books she has written. As far as I can remember, she has FREQUENTLY participated in her own sets with books she cowrote and wrote. Is she saying she didn't write them? Or is she hoping that no one will prove that her writing IS in the sets? Does that jump out to anyone else, or am I just splitting hairs?

This is gonna be a really interesting court date. Good luck, Christina. Go get her.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to let you know that my attorney has answered the motion to quash, wherein it was claimed--among other things--that California is an inconvenient venue for Rebecca and that she does not conduct significant business in the state. You can find the response here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0R3Y1YXRmek0wR29TV2xlUnlUU0xPSXZ6TTZJ/view

Please let me know if you have any questions and I'll answer what I can.

Thanks again for all of your support <3


----------



## MyraScott

That is an excellent and well-supported response.  

Of course she does business in California- her co-writer lives there, as do many other writers for her sets and other projects. Not to mention iBooks and Google Play books. 

I cracked up at the line about overburdening the courts.  Basically, thanks for worrying about us, but justice is what we do.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> I cracked up at the line about overburdening the courts. Basically, thanks for worrying about us, but justice is what we do.


I did too, although I wonder if the judge will laugh--especially at a GA attorney intimating he's too busy to give a long-standing citizen justice in the state where I live and my damages occurred.

I also thought the offer to comply with court orders--which they are legally obligated to do--was particularly funny. Are we to infer that if they don't get what they want, they won't comply with the law?


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> I also thought the offer to comply with court orders--which they are legally obligated to do--was particularly funny. Are we to infer that if they don't get what they want, they won't comply with the law?


I think that's the underlying threat.


----------



## unkownwriter

> Are we to infer that if they don't get what they want, they won't comply with the law?


Kinda makes you wonder, right? It's not like any of that is optional in any way.


----------



## Monique

Proud of you for fighting the good fight. I know it's expensive and time consuming to do.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Monique said:


> Proud of you for fighting the good fight. I know it's expensive and time consuming to do.


Thank you, Monique. It's been both and will continue to be so, but enough is enough. Rebecca could have settled this by returning the funds owed me and admitting she'd made statements about me with no basis in fact. That would have been the honest and honorable thing to do, and this would be over. She's made other choices and I intend to see this through, whatever it takes.

edited b/c a typo was driving me nuts.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> I cracked up at the line about overburdening the courts. Basically, thanks for worrying about us, but justice is what we do.


I did, too. Your lawyer's ability to use well-reasoned legalese in order to throw shade is awesome.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Perry Constantine said:


> I did, too. Your lawyer's ability to use well-reasoned legalese in order to throw shade is awesome.


One of her many fine attributes


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Wow, I am impressed. Your attorney is thorough. I think I have a crush on her right now.

Good explanation of the time limits as well; I thought it was strange that there was no defense response to the issues of your motion when the motion to squash was filed. I've sadly had enough experience dealing with court motions it makes my head spin, but one thing my lawyer said is that we always need to file a cross motion in defense, no matter what sideline agreements are going on between lawyers or participants. 

Stay strong. Definitely following. Your lawyer's response was so well-supported that it gives a lot of considerations for small business owners to consider as well, especially those who do business worldwide via the internet. I'm kinda stunned that the defendant's lawyer tried to argue the California thing. I thought the defendant said that her lawyers were moving to get the case moved to Federal court, or thrown out entirely because she was illegally served and your case wasn't filed properly by your lawyer?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

ebbrown said:


> Wow, I am impressed. Your attorney is thorough. I think I have a crush on her right now.
> 
> I thought the defendant said that her lawyers were moving to get the case moved to Federal court, or thrown out entirely because she was illegally served by your lawyer?


I'm pretty fond of my attorney, too 

And yes, Rebecca did say that. I believe my attorney planned to address that in her own sworn statement. (It was filed, but I haven't received a copy yet so I can't say for sure. I will share once I have it.) Rebecca stated in June that laws were broken and that she would be moving the case to federal court. All the more reason it's troubling that her attorneys asked for more time to file a responsive pleading when it seems they were intent on this course of action all along.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Here is the link to the Go Fund Me for those who want to donate or who would like to check on the updates.

I'd def be interested in your attorney's statement regarding that claim. Wow, I am impressed with her mad research skills. Accurate research and fully notated sources float my boat (lol, it's probably the whole historical fiction thing, but anyway  ) Lately my hobby has been doing court document research, I find it fascinating. Thankfully, my lawyer is my friend, so she doesn't charge me for silly questions.

Thanks for updating, Christina.


----------



## 91831

At the end of that document, I just wanted to see an Obama Mic Drop and Peace Out Bitches pictures stapled to it!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

ebbrown said:


> Lately my hobby has been doing court document research, I find it fascinating.


Wow, you too??


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> ...make sure your contracts have a settled venue and method to handle disputes.


Among others you made, this is a great point. The onus is on the person drafting the contract to do so.


----------



## Becca Mills

Thanks for the update, Christina. 

Let me drop in a reminder for everyone that this thread should remain focused on Christina's suit. I've removed a post that strayed off topic.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I had hoped to share my statement with the exhibits attached, but the file is so large and image/screen shot heavy that my attorney isn't able to email it! She'll dropbox it to me eventually but after how hard she's been working I don't want to trouble her for it just now 

My statement is a brief summary of the case, as well as a rebuttal of certain claims Rebecca made in her own statement. If you missed her statement, you can find it here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0VWJZYmFYUEdHR19zR3UtdnNhZXJxdXlCWFNN/view?usp=sharing

In it, Rebecca claims to have a Florida address for QBW, an LLC registered in that state. However, when service was attempted at the address, the process server was told the address (a UPS box) was not registered to QBW LLC, and therefore the employee refused to accept the papers. (We have the process server on record with this.) She also says she plans to remain at her residence at XXX Tall Tree road for the foreseeable future, when in fact she's been posting pictures of the home she's having built and has stated she's moving soon.

She also says "I and QBW conduct hardly any sales in California." Given the number of sets she has on California retailers, the number of California clients she has, and the fact that her co-writer resides here, this is demonstrably false.

And of course there's her claim, "I do not even write the books that ultimately get marketed under these contracts." My statement and exhibits address this as well.

You can find it here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0TVpMUzUzT2Q4QTFKRnhNNDY0OEhaM2hncC13/view?usp=sharing

Just to answer a question that could come up--I was out of town when this was signed and needed to note my location at the time of signature, which is why it gives a location other than California. I do reside in CA full time.

Thank you again for your support and, as always, I'll answer any questions I can.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Thanks for the continued updates, Christina. It is most appreciated!  Wishing you well on this case, and hoping it's not causing undo stress outside of the legal matters.


----------



## MClayton

ChristinaGarner said:


> In it, Rebecca claims to have a Florida address for QBW, an LLC registered in that state. However, when service was attempted at the address, the process server was told the address (a UPS box) was not registered to QBW LLC, and therefore the employee refused to accept the papers.


Christina, I'm confused by this. If she has a registered LLC in Florida, she's required to have a registered agent. This agent has to be available in Florida during regular business hours at a physical street address (in order to, among other things, accept legal mail). Rented mailboxes won't work - the state will not accept an address for a rented mailbox. The address can be the owner's address, a friend or relative's address, or the address of a company hired to be the registered agent, but it has to be a Florida street address. The registered agent's physical street address is the address that would be listed on the Articles of Incorporation. I'm by no means a legal expert (not even close), but I've been the managing member of a couple of LLCs.


----------



## MClayton

Boyd said:


> That had me curious, so I googled it - https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2fhvyc/qbw-services-llc The address listed there is for a UPS store... so I scrolled a little more and found a sample contract for Charmed Legacy with the same address . http://charmedlegacy.com/sample-contract/
> 
> Thank you for the updates Christina.


I saw that, too. But it ain't s'posed to be that way. I once had a long conversation with a representative about that very topic. Edit to add: Rental boxes can be used for mail collection and can be listed as the public mailing address, but the authorized agent has to have a legitimate street address and be available during business hours (typically 9-5), and should be listed in the Articles of Incorporation.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MClayton said:


> Christina, I'm confused by this. If she has a registered LLC in Florida, she's required to have a registered agent. This agent has to be available in Florida during regular business hours at a physical street address (in order to, among other things, accept legal mail). Rented mailboxes won't work - the state will not accept an address for a rented mailbox. The address can be the owner's address, a friend or relative's address, or the address of a company hired to be the registered agent, but it has to be a Florida street address. The registered agent's physical street address is the address that would be listed on the Articles of Incorporation. I'm by no means a legal expert (not even close), but I've been the managing member of a couple of LLCs.


As I understand it, (and IANAL) as long as there is an actual street address with a live person working there (as opposed to a PO box) it is legal to register an address like this for an LLC. That the person working there has said the address is not valid for that business name is a problem.


----------



## MClayton

The registered agent (Edit to add: in Florida, at least) has to be a specific person who signs the application, accepting the role and all it may entail. http://dos.myflorida.com/sunbiz/start-business/efile/fl-llc/instructions/

UPS doesn't count, unless someone there signed the application and agreed to be the registered agent (which I'm sure wouldn't happen).


----------



## PhoenixS

I too followed the google path.

A quick google search brings up the Florida State Dept's information on QBW Services LLC:
http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/SearchResultDetail?inquirytype=EntityName&directionType=Initial&searchNameOrder=QBWSERVICES%20L140001342010&aggregateId=flal-l14000134201-da1dfda7-98c2-4a50-86ba-51aa7878a2b4&searchTerm=QBW&listNameOrder=QBW%20P090000734660

The same address is on record for the Company Address, its Mailing Address, the Registered Agent, and the Authorized Person:
300 E OAKLAND PARK BLVD.
#162
OAKLAND PARK, FL 33334

A second google search shows that address as being a UPS store.

A required Annual Report document filed March 19, 2017 (long after RH/Shana's move to Georgia, where, by her own filed court statement, she intends to continue living for the foreseeable future) lists the UPS store address as the address of the Registered Agent and Authorized Person.
http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/GetDocument?aggregateId=flal-l14000134201-da1dfda7-98c2-4a50-86ba-51aa7878a2b4&transactionId=l14000134201-4c8f8a82-1981-4bba-ae00-a7a587bfe5bc&formatType=PDF

Note her electronic signature verifying the info is true and accurate.


----------



## GeneDoucette

In my day job, I used to have to research business customers for reasons various and sundry (usually pertaining to money laundering) and I can't tell you how many times I came up on legal mailing addresses that were UPS or Mailboxes Etc (i don't know if those still exist) or the USPS. People will put down the postal address and call the box "apt.#" and it works. That's above and beyond the business entity agents that I think is the only functional purpose of the entire state of Delaware.


----------



## PhoenixS

Oh, and when she filed for the LLC, she named herself Registered Agent and agreed to accept service of process at the UPS store address:

http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/ConvertTiffToPDF?storagePath=COR%5C2014%5C0827%5C60767926.tif&documentNumber=L14000134201

ETA: Florida also seems to require a Registered Agent who's a person (which Shana, the Reg Agent is, I believe, and not an entity, like QBW Services is) to actually live in the state. Which RH had already moved to Georgia when she filed her 2017 Report (linked in the post above). There are no further public docs that I found showing she had changed her Registered Agent to someone residing in Florida.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View+Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=605.0113&URL=0600-0699%2F0605%2FSections%2F0605.0113.html


----------



## ChristinaGarner

boba1823 said:


> I'm super late to the party, and a little confused about the general background on all this since I'm still a publishing noob - so please feel free to ignore me if this is too basic:
> 
> What's the deal with this basic type of promotional service that is being discussed? You let them put your book into a huge box set, pay them several thousands dollars, they [insert some kind of magic] to get it on the NYT Bestseller list and then you're able to put "From New York Times Best Selling Author Diddly Wooks" on all of your book covers? Or am I misunderstanding something?
> 
> If that's roughly accurate, is this a legitimate (i.e. not against the rules) promotional model and there are only some bad apples, or are all such promotions scammy?


Because topics about the person being discussed in this thread (and currently in litigation with me) tend to get heated, the mods have asked we keep the focus of this thread strictly on the case, so please understand if we are reluctant to answer about box sets in general.

There are a lot of factors to deciding if a box set is something right for an author and if the tactics being used to sell a specific set line up with that author's integrity. This thread is a monster but will shed light on what we have been discussing in this thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,250491.0.html


----------



## 91831

Thanks for keeping us informed, Christina (and keeping it classy!).


----------



## 39416

It's a long process so it's a good idea to pace your expectations. After you get service, jurisdiction, and venue hammered out, you're likely to then get a Motion to Dismiss for Failure to State a Cause of Action. After you get the judge to dump that, then you are likely to get an Answer that simply says "Denied" fifty times. Then you move into Discovery, the deadlines of which many Defendants ignore --not to mention failing to provide the stuff you've demanded. (I sued a Florida State Agency once and discovered that before they provided me with the documents I'd demanded in Discovery, they took a bottle of White-Out and changed a crucial document to say the opposite of what it did.) Eventually though, you get there (usually via court-ordered Mediation). Of course by then most everyone is so pooped out all either side wants to do is settle.


----------



## MyraScott

I have to wonder at a legal system that favors the wealthy... you shouldn't have to mortgage your soul to file a legal case but that is how it is. This is why people get away with shoddy business practices and taking advantage... if you are willing to put up with the intimidation and take things to court, the costs are soooo much more than the original contract.

In order to keep prosecuting this case, Christina needs more funds. If you want to help, here's the fundraiser: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/

No one should sign up for book promotions and spend the next year in litigation. Christina has had to take a full-time job to cover the legal fees. She's not asking us to foot the bill... she just can't do this on her own. No one should be bullied over a business contract.

While the defendant can whip up more courses, help books and box sets in order to afford this endless litigation, Christina is using the money she set aside to take time off and write this year to fight this case. This could have been settled at any point but instead it is being drawn out, costing thousands. The defendant has no choice but to delay because she doesn't want the evidence in public files. She doesn't want her business associates to have to testify under oath. Facebook will provide a lot of written proof and nothing is ever really deleted. Her only hope is to stop it from ever getting that far, to tie up the process until Christina's money runs out.


----------



## 75814

I just donated some more. Sorry I can't afford to donate more. Keep up the good fight, Christina!


----------



## thesmallprint

Am trying to donate but keep getting message that payment can't be processed at this time.

Given the anguish this has caused (witness the very long thread that predates the court case) it would be a travesty if Christina had to give way, having simply been ground down financially and emotionally in such a calculated manner.  A defeat for Christina through overall exhaustion would leave the 'winner' feeling unbeatable and all-powerful in the march forward.

Sadly, nobody can donate energy and emotional reserves to Christina, but a few dollars will help show support and take some of the strain.  In a way, this is for all of us...all of us.


----------



## Silly Writer

Donated again. Wish it could be more... but if everyone who's been hurt by this person/business (just on this board) pitches in even a little, we could meet this goal a dozen times.

Good luck, Christina. You're certainly taking one for the team here, and you're held up as a hero in many places that Indies convene. Keep fighting!

Edited to add donation link for others to find easier: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## 91831

I did what I could - stay classy, lady.  We're with you x


----------



## inconsequential

I donated what I could. I'll go back later and donate more if possible.

You're in my thoughts and prayers, often. Thank you for your commitment to this, and for keeping us updated.


----------



## Used To Be BH

I donated. Ideally, everyone in the indie community who cares about the integrity of the system will pitch in a little. Unfortunately, everybody isn't on Kboards, but there must be hundreds of people here who fit that description.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Added another drop to the pot.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Donated. Stay strong, Christina. Keep up the good fight. Fingers crossed you get your day in court and can get back to writing and selling books.


----------



## lilywhite

Donated again. I'll try to do this every couple of weeks. 

I'm trying to write my feelings about this situation, and nothing I type is going to make it past the mods, so I'll just say: This is unbelievable.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I just wanted to say a very heartfelt thank you for the donations as well as the very kind words. So much of this process has been ugly, but the support I've received from all of you is beautiful. Thank you, and please, no more comments about wishing it was more. Generosity doesn't come with a price tag and you all have been generous beyond measure. <3


----------



## Crime fighters

Christina, 

You are incredibly strong and brave, and I know that I wouldn't have the fortitude in your shoes. She's never done anything to me personally, although I have a feeling all of the newsletters in my inbox that I didn't sign up for are from her businesses, but I've seen her attack, defame, and demean others for years. More than anything, at the end of this, I hope you find peace and have the strength to continue publishing. We're all standing behind you and I wish I wasn't in such a crappy financial situation right now so I could contribute something other than words. 

Keep up the good fight! 
KB


----------



## Sapphire

Donated today, too.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I've been donating each month what I can.  

For me, this IS about a very clear message to ANY service provider that sees authors as a resource to fleece. And I've seen it many times since 2011... If the community supports Christina, it sends the message that we are not as vulnerable as they think. They can't just take the few thousand dollars and know it would cost more to sue so they can get away with whatever. 

No refunds when service is not provided as originally outlined is absurd to me. And I say that as a former book marketer. People here on Kboards can attest, I never denied anyone a refund for any reason. I planned it in my business plan like all of retail has to do. No one should have to sue for a refund.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

If it's a waiting game to see who runs out of money first, let's not let that happen. I just kicked in another thousand. Please continue to keep us posted.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Donated. 

Note that in addition to the $10,000+ Christina raised in A SINGLE DAY the first time around, authors have donated over $15,000 more this time! Over 200 donations just this time. That tells you something about how the community feels about what happened. (Not saying more because not the place & all that, but if you don't know--go read the old threads. And caveat emptor at this point. If you're considering a promo--Google is your friend. )

Go get 'em, Christina. I know it's exhausting and so expensive, but it's a good fight.


----------



## MyraScott

This is the same fund, so $10K of this money is already spent.  She's trying to raise $25K total, so another $15K on top of the first amount. 

But it's a great turnout so far- $5K today is amazing!!


----------



## Usedtoposthere

MyraScott said:


> This is the same fund, so $10K of this money is already spent. She's trying to raise $25K total, so another $15K on top of the first amount.
> 
> But it's a great turnout so far- $5K today is amazing!!


Oh--thanks for clarifying! I thought it was in addition. But 5K today IS great!


----------



## Monique

Great to see so many helping out, many for a second time.



Wayne Stinnett said:


> If it's a waiting game to see who runs out of money first, let's not let that happen. I just kicked in another thousand. Please continue to keep us posted.


Very generous of you, Wayne!


----------



## 75814

Wayne Stinnett said:


> If it's a waiting game to see who runs out of money first, let's not let that happen. I just kicked in another thousand. Please continue to keep us posted.


I nominate Wayne for Indie Author Sainthood. This is amazing.


----------



## unkownwriter

Perry Constantine said:


> I nominate Wayne for Indie Author Sainthood. This is amazing.


Seriously. Wayne, you're awesome (and everyone else who's contributed are just as awesome, no matter what amount)! Little amounts add up, and I can only give a little myself but I'll do it to see justice done, not only for Christina, but for everyone who's been dealt with like this.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I've been donating each month what I can.
> 
> For me, this IS about a very clear message to ANY service provider that sees authors as a resource to fleece. And I've seen it many times since 2011... If the community supports Christina, it sends the message that we are not as vulnerable as they think. They can't just take the few thousand dollars and know it would cost more to sue so they can get away with whatever.
> 
> No refunds when service is not provided as originally outlined is absurd to me. And I say that as a former book marketer. People here on Kboards can attest, I never denied anyone a refund for any reason. I planned it in my business plan like all of retail has to do. No one should have to sue for a refund.


That's a good way to think about this issue. It isn't just the one case--though that by itself would be outrageous enough. It's a way of standing up against scammy service providers in general. A victory here will make them think twice in the future.

There are a lot of problems in our ecosystem that we can't easily solve. But this is one in which our efforts have a chance of paying off.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Bill Hiatt said:


> That's a good way to think about this issue. It isn't just the one case--though that by itself would be outrageous enough. It's a way of standing up against scammy service providers in general. A victory here will make them think twice in the future.
> 
> There are a lot of problems in our ecosystem that we can't easily solve. But this is one in which our efforts have a chance of paying off.


More than that, Bill. The outcome of this case, should it go before a judge, is a foregone conclusion. The plaintiff will win. This will set a legal precedence, which will make any future litigation much simpler. The defense knows this and is using delaying tactics, even if it costs more than the settlement, to avoid the worst part of final outcome, a public apology and admission of wrong-doing.

As I pointed out earlier, if it comes down to who can produce the most money for the legal battle, well, I already know who that's going to be.  I consider it an investment in the betterment of our industry. Amazon is huge and ponderous. The volume of books sold there is staggering. They can't possibly clean things up. So, it's up to the community to police itself. Not with torches and pitchforks, but the right way, through legal discourse. Right is right.

You're very right though in that this will make others think twice, before they even get close to that ethical line of departure. Or, they can stumble blindly ahead, crossing it, ignorant of what's right or wrong, and get slapped down hard. That's Darwinism. Dumb is dumb.

"You! In the deep end! Out of the gene pool!"

Edited. PM me any questions. Evenstar (Moderator)


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> More than that, Bill. The outcome of this case, should it go before a judge, is a foregone conclusion. The plaintiff will win. This will set a legal precedence, which will make any future litigation much simpler. The defense knows this and is using delaying tactics, even if it costs more than the settlement, to avoid the worst part of final outcome, a public apology and admission of wrong-doing.
> 
> As I pointed out earlier, if it comes down to who can produce the most money for the legal battle, well, I already know who that's going to be.  I consider it an investment in the betterment of our industry. Amazon is huge and ponderous. The volume of books sold there is staggering. They can't possibly clean things up. So, it's up to the community to police itself. Not with torches and pitchforks, but the right way, through legal discourse. Right is right.
> 
> You're very right though in that this will make others think twice, before they even get close to that ethical line of departure. Or, they can stumble blindly ahead, crossing it, ignorant of what's right or wrong, and get slapped down hard. That's Darwinism. Dumb is dumb.
> 
> "You! In the deep end! Out of the gene pool!"
> 
> Edited. PM me any questions. Evenstar (Moderator)


Good points. Let's hope that the 'others' get to hear about this lawsuit.

_Edited to carry Evenstar's edits through the quoted material. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Wayne Stinnett said:


> More than that, Bill. The outcome of this case, should it go before a judge, is a foregone conclusion. The plaintiff will win. This will set a legal precedence, which will make any future litigation much simpler. The defense knows this and is using delaying tactics, even if it costs more than the settlement, to avoid the worst part of final outcome, a public apology and admission of wrong-doing.
> 
> As I pointed out earlier, if it comes down to who can produce the most money for the legal battle, well, I already know who that's going to be.  I consider it an investment in the betterment of our industry. Amazon is huge and ponderous. The volume of books sold there is staggering. They can't possibly clean things up. So, it's up to the community to police itself. Not with torches and pitchforks, but the right way, through legal discourse. Right is right.
> 
> You're very right though in that this will make others think twice, before they even get close to that ethical line of departure. Or, they can stumble blindly ahead, crossing it, ignorant of what's right or wrong, and get slapped down hard. That's Darwinism. Dumb is dumb.
> 
> "You! In the deep end! Out of the gene pool!"
> 
> Edited. PM me any questions. Evenstar (Moderator)


It absolutely will. And it will give teeth to anyone who is wronged and give incentive to service providers to negotiate a compromise. There are very big legal stakes at play. If you sign a contract with someone and the venue is not stated for disputes, where are they handled? Is it your state where you paid for the editing or marketing or other thing? Or, do you have to chase down the person who took your money and failed to deliver?

NOT all service providers are bad. Most are very, very awesome. But a few bad actors can hurt this industry so quickly, like Wayne points out. I don't have the same war chest as Wayne, but what I do have I give freely because this isn't just about Christina. It's about setting a standard.... if anyone steps up to work with scores of authors on projects there is an expectation of fair play for everyone. That's all.

_Edited to reflect Evenstar's edits in the quoted material. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## unkownwriter

Oh, Wayne. Words fail me. Rock on, dude. You are totally, absolutely without a doubt, correct in all points.


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated. 

Nick


----------



## PearlEarringLady

MyraScott said:


> In order to keep prosecuting this case, Christina needs more funds. If you want to help, here's the fundraiser: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


Quoting this to keep the donations link handy to save people trawling through the thread. The campaign is now 70% funded.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

PaulineMRoss said:


> Quoting this to keep the donations link handy to save people trawling through the thread. The campaign is now 70% funded.


Good to hear about the 70%. Bumping to keep it on the 1st page


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I've been watching donations come in ranging from $5 to $1500 and been appreciative of each individually and collectively blown away by the support of the community. And of course, Wayne's commitment to this cause leaves me speechless.   I'm also so humbled that despite early on being accused of "running to Hawaii" that you've all trusted me--to many, a relative stranger--with your money and this case. 

I have been and will continue to do my best to live up to the trust you've placed in me. I know this case is about much more than my personal losses.  

I can't say it enough... Thank you. 

Edited to get rid of the annoying symbols...


----------



## Abderian

Donated. Good luck, Christina!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Edited to get rid of the annoying symbols...


If you run a cut and paste through this https://dan.hersam.com/tools/smart-quotes.html you will get rid of the annoying symbols. (thanks to another KBoarder for this tip)


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If you run a cut and paste through this https://dan.hersam.com/tools/smart-quotes.html you will get rid of the annoying symbols. (thanks to another KBoarder for this tip)


You just changed my life...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> You just changed my life...


That's what KBoarders do for each other


----------



## wren14

Donated. I think this also sends a message to Amazon. If we speak up and loud enough, they'll start to listen.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## JRTomlin

Wayne is a real hero. I also threw my few quid into the pot. 😜


----------



## Becca Mills

Friends, I notice Evenstar and I have both had to be active here in the last day, editing and deleting posts that delve into Rebecca Hamilton's past and current behavior rather than focusing tightly on the status of Christina's case, as we've asked.

Having this thread open can only be helpful to Christina's effort. Please don't sabotage it.


----------



## Hope

i got a message that my donation couldn't be processed right now. I'll try again tomorrow.


----------



## thesmallprint

katygirl said:


> i got a message that my donation couldn't be processed right now. I'll try again tomorrow.


I just made my 9th attempt at donating through PayPal and got the same message. I suspect there are quite a few lost donations slipping away now.


----------



## unkownwriter

Becca Mills said:


> Friends, I notice Evenstar and I have both had to be active here in the last day, editing and deleting posts that delve into Rebecca Hamilton's past and current behavior rather than focusing tightly on the status of Christina's case, as we've asked.
> 
> Having this thread open can only be helpful to Christina's effort. Please don't sabotage it.


Yes, please, everyone remember to not go beyond the constraints of this thread. Christina needs this to remain open, and in the end her efforts will help all of us.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

thesmallprint said:


> I just made my 9th attempt at donating through PayPal and got the same message. I suspect there are quite a few lost donations slipping away now.


That is frustrating and I'm so sorry! I've reached out to you by email and hope I can help. I know there was an issue yesterday due to server maintenance but it definitely sounds likes this is more than that. Thanks for your willingness to keep trying <3



katygirl said:


> i got a message that my donation couldn't be processed right now. I'll try again tomorrow.


This *could* be the server issue but it's still frustrating. Please feel free to reach out to me by PM if you have an issue a second time and I'll see what I can find out.

I'm sorry to anyone who has tried to give and found it difficult


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## 77071

Do you allow people to donate directly through PayPal instead of this site? I won't sign up for things like this that require a physical address, because of privacy and data security issue, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

To put it bluntly: if the only way I can support or give is through a third party site that requires information I don't feel like I should have to share, or feel safe sharing, the cause will miss out on my support.  I doubt I'm the only one.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

HSh said:


> Do you allow people to donate directly through PayPal instead of this site? I won't sign up for things like this that require a physical address, because of privacy and data security issue, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
> 
> To put it bluntly: if the only way I can support or give is through a third party site that requires information I don't feel like I should have to share, or feel safe sharing, the cause will miss out on my support. I doubt I'm the only one.


I totally understand! I specifically chose this site for its PayPal integration and I assumed it would only require logging into your PayPal account. I had no idea the site was asking for info and I can see how that would be off-putting.

I've sent you a PM with my email address and would be happy to do the same for anyone else who prefers to give direct via PayPal. I don't often receive money via PayPal, so it will be easy for me to keep separate and assure any funds sent in this way will go directly to the lawsuit fund. I'll also see about adding a donate button to my site to make it easier.

Thank you for alerting me to this issue!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

HSh said:


> Do you allow people to donate directly through PayPal instead of this site? I won't sign up for things like this that require a physical address, because of privacy and data security issue, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
> 
> To put it bluntly: if the only way I can support or give is through a third party site that requires information I don't feel like I should have to share, or feel safe sharing, the cause will miss out on my support. I doubt I'm the only one.


I'm pretty sure this site doesn't require any of that. I just ran through the steps. They ask for first name, last name, and email ... all of which are optional, then you can go straight to Paypal.


----------



## 77071

Hm.  I tried to donate earlier and I could swear it asked for my address.  I just hit the back button.  Now I'm just seeing what you said, though.  Perhaps it was my mistake, or I confused it with another fund I tried to donate to.
Sorry.  Maybe you don't have to change anything.  Let me see if I can go the whole way through the process without giving my address...


----------



## thesmallprint

Just a thought. Christina kindly got in touch about my problems with the donating site and I managed to send the donation direct using Paypal. That might be a solution for you if you hit problems and want to PM Christina about them.  Also, it cuts out the middleman slice and adds a wee bit more to the fighting fund.


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## MyraScott

71% funded!

As you organize your end-of-month expenses, if you are able help out, please take a moment to make a donation.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


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## Piers Platt

Donated. Good luck, Christina.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey guys,

Last night I received the tentative ruling made by the judge regarding Rebecca's motion to quash. You can read it in its entirety via the link below. It's really interesting and points out some things we might have done to better represent our position. What I really appreciate is the fact that the judge carefully examined all the information presented before ruling. He even quoted from the Charmed Legacy contract.

For anyone who prefers the nutshell version:

TENTATIVE RULING

Shana Raywood dba Rebecca Hamilton and QBW Services, LLC's Motion to Quash
Service of Summons on the ground that the Los Angeles County Superior Court lacks
personal jurisdiction over them is DENIED. The court further denies the motions made
pursuant to CCP §418.10(a)(2) and 410.30(a), for an order staying or dismissing the case
for inconvenient forum.
The alternative motion to stay the action based upon forum non-conveniens is DENIED.
Defendants have not submitted sufficient evidence to overcome the strong presumption in
favor of a California resident's choice of a California forum.

The defense can either chose to submit to this ruling and we'll move forward with the case, or decide to argue the matter in front of the judge this Thursday, 8/31. I'll keep you all posted and thank you again for all of your support.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0c1NvSVllTmhkNUE/view?usp=sharing


----------



## 75814

Can I just say this judge is freaking awesome?


----------



## Guest

I particularly liked this part:



> California's Interest in Regulation: As noted above, one of the triggers for the interests of this state is if the suit involves products made here. As Defendants have insistently repeated, they do not write the books they promote; Plaintiff did. Those books are California products, and California has an interest in adjudicating suits regarding the promotion of materials produced in California. This factor weighs in favor of Plaintiff.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Perry Constantine said:


> Can I just say this judge is freaking awesome?


I agree. This is a complex case with four different contracts and issues of libel/defamation. While he hasn't been briefed on the entire case, there is still a lot to digest for this motion. I'm very heartened to see how conscientious he is in reviewing the facts, as that is what this case will hinge upon.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I particularly liked this part: California�s Interest in Regulation: As noted above, one of the triggers for the interests of this state is if the suit involves products made here. As Defendants have insistently repeated, they do not write the books they promote; Plaintiff did. Those books are California products, and California has an interest in adjudicating suits regarding the promotion of materials produced in California. This factor weighs in favor of Plaintiff.


So did I, and if I'm honest, that wasn't something I'd considered before. But of course it makes perfect sense.

I also appreciated:

"Interests of Potential Juror: The local community has concern that contracts entered into by residents here can be enforced. This factor weighs in favor of Plaintiff.'


----------



## JRTomlin

MyraScott said:


> In order to keep prosecuting this case, Christina needs more funds. If you want to help, here's the fundraiser: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


 Quoting to keep the contribution link easy to find.


----------



## Silly Writer

Just wanted to note that it did not require my address or anything other than my Paypal log-in to contribute to this cause.

Let's try to fund it to 100% and show all scammers taking (or trying to take) advantage of Indies, that we at Kboards are a family, and we won't stand for it! Like they said on GOT this weekend, the lone wolf may die, but the pack still stands. I'm gonna tweak that a bit to say, 'the lone wolf may be attacked, but the pack won't stand for it!'

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## unkownwriter

Christina, that is great news! I really liked the part Julie pointed out as well, and the thing about potential jurors having an interest in their neighbors getting their day in court (paraphrased as I understood it).


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Just realized there was a part of this process I neglected to post.

The moving party (in this case, the defendant) gets to have the last word (other than the judge of course) which means when we filed our opposition to their original motion to quash, they provided a reply. Here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0aGxMU015Vi1Wb0RhdDhQZ1ZzUDJHVHVhWGtV/view?usp=sharing

Just so there's no misunderstanding, this was filed _prior_ to the judge's tentative ruling and therefore was taken into account before he reached his decision. There will be no further filings until the hearing on 8/31. I just neglected to post it--sorry. Lots going on!


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

This is very heartening. Thank you for the update, Christina!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Good news. Hope to hear more of the same.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Wow. Reading the preliminary ruling was eye-opening. Not that it means much, but thank you Christina for sharing this process so that all of us are more educated about what would REALLY be involved to bring action against any company.

I am proud of the way the community is stepping up to help support this. https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## MyraScott

Good luck at today's hearing on the motion to quash!


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

MyraScott said:


> Good luck at today's hearing on the motion to quash!


Good luck, Christina!


----------



## thesmallprint

Good luck, Christina.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## C. Gockel

> California's Interest in Regulation: As noted above, one of the triggers for the interests of this state is if the suit involves products made here. As Defendants have insistently repeated, they do not write the books they promote; Plaintiff did. Those books are California products, and California has an interest in adjudicating suits regarding the promotion of materials produced in California. This factor weighs in favor of Plaintiff.


I can't help wondering if my state would also step up for me like this. This is a good thing.


----------



## unkownwriter

I hope things go well today.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

she-la-ti-da said:


> I hope things go well today.


Thank you! I was actually just coming by to let everyone know what happened 

Often a judge will hear the oral arguments and then write up his final decision later, but in this instance he listened to them and decided to rule from the bench that his tentative decision would stand. He said he'd given his eleven page ruling careful consideration and believes his reasoning would stand up to appeal if need be.

Rebecca's motion to quash was denied, and the case will proceed in California. She has ten days to answer the suit.

Thanks for everything, guys. I'll keep you posted with updates as I have them. I'm very happy to have won this opening round and be able to proceed.


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> Rebecca's motion to quash was denied, and the case will proceed in California. She has ten days to answer the suit.


This is the answer she was supposed to be giving when she asked for more time to file, then tried to get the case thrown out of CA?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

That's good news  .


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> This is the answer she was supposed to be giving when she asked for more time to file, then tried to get the case thrown out of CA?


Yes; exactly.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> This is the answer she was supposed to be giving when she asked for more time to file, then tried to get the case thrown out of CA?


Stalling tactic. She's trying to drag this out as long as possible.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Right this is good but there is still a long way to go? Hang in there Christina. At least it will be heard in California !!!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Right this is good but there is still a long way to go? Hang in there Christina. At least it will be heard in California !!!


Yes; absolutely. We are still in the preliminary stages, and there is a long way left to go. The wheels of justice may be slow, but I'm heartened they are moving in the right direction. The next step is her answer or demurrer which must arrive by September 11.


----------



## Seshenet

ChristinaGarner said:


> Yes; absolutely. We are still in the preliminary stages, and there is a long way left to go. The wheels of justice may be slow, but I'm heartened they are moving in the right direction. The next step is her answer or demurrer which must arrive by September 11.


You have true grit. Not sure I'd have the strength to go through with this.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Seshenet said:


> You have true grit. Not sure I'd have the strength to go through with this.


That's kind of you to say. I think this was honestly a case of "enough is enough" for both me and the community as a whole. I had given serious thought to letting her keep the money owed me just to avoid the backlash. But when I was falsely accused of plagiarizing/pirating a book and scheming to break KU's ToS, we crossed the Rubicon. Believe me, I wish it hadn't happened this way--my life has dramatically changed because of it. But sometimes you have to take a stand, and I'm very, very fortunate the community has been willing to stand with me.


----------



## unkownwriter

Yes, sometimes you have to take a stand. I get how it would have been easier to let things go, and goodness knows, over the years a lot of people have done just that, but what was said about you was too much. I'm glad you had the courage to step up and do what was right.

Hard as it may be, as long as it may take, remember you are not alone, Christina.


----------



## Lydniz

Just bumping.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

I'm so, so glad to hear that things will continue in CA. You definitely have miles to go, but this bodes well. Hang in there, Christina, and please remember to practice self-care, especially as this goes on. 

It really does take a community, and I'm glad to see so much support here.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?

At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.

Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


You're my new hero. 

Will some of the court costs be recoverable in the event Christina prevails? I know that sometimes the losing party in a civil suit has to be pay all the court costs for both sides, but I have no idea how that works.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Bill Hiatt said:


> You're my new hero.
> 
> Will some of the court costs be recoverable in the event Christina prevails? I know that sometimes the losing party in a civil suit has to be pay all the court costs for both sides, but I have no idea how that works.


Sometimes/ I'm not sure about this case, but I don't anticipate repayment. In a lot of instances, when huge amounts are spent and the defendant loses, they file bankruptcy. I'd expect no less in the case of this defendant.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


I was just speaking to someone about how much I appreciated your voice in the original thread where all of this began. If not for the willingness of you and others to speak in my defense and take some of the blows meant for me, I'd have never been able to keep posting. And now you've stepped forward in a way I would never even have imagined. I find myself speechless when I think of your generosity, so please forgive my lack of eloquence.

I have spoken with my attorney about the possible delay tactics and timeline. Some might be better discussed offline, but I can say that even with minimal delays we are looking at a year for the matter to be fully resolved. (Though some of those months will just be waiting for the next motion and not be nearly as expensive as this past month was!)

To your question, Bill, it's certainly possible to be awarded attorney's fees. And in a case that involves maliciousness (such as libel), bankruptcy is likely not going to discharge the debt. However, there are many ways to avoid of paying a judgement, and I feel certain I'd confront several of them.

Which is why Acheknia's point is so accurate about this taking a huge weight off of my shoulders. I can take the hit to my career and emotional well-being to get justice, but at a certain point, throwing good money after bad becomes unwise, even if my attorney and I believe strongly that we'll prevail. Knowing I won't go broke in this pursuit lets me exhale in a way I haven't since this nightmare began.

My words are inadequate to express my gratitude, but thank you.


----------



## PhoenixS

Wayne and Elizabeth, I've sparred often with you both. And while I likely won't stop the sparring (too much fun!), please know whatever professional differences we may have, you have both earned my utmost respect over these last 4 months. In the ways that matter most, we have no differences. Thank you for helping me see that. And for putting community first. ♥♥♥


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

PhoenixS said:


> Wayne and Elizabeth, I've sparred often with you both. And while I likely won't stop the sparring (too much fun!), please know whatever professional differences we may have, you have both earned my utmost respect over these last 4 months. In the ways that matter most, we have no differences. Thank you for helping me see that. And for putting community first. ♥♥♥


The best people to hang out with are the ones who won't always agree with you. I have always said "I don't agree with her on everything, but Phoenix Sullivan knows her stuff." It took me a good bit to realize many of us who are here year after year with different strategies aren't wrong, we just see different parts of the mountain.

I have regrets for things I didn't stand up about back in the day and later on, others got hurt. But this is about the lawsuit and I think if there has to be legal action, the way this is happening with as much transparency as possible is really helpful for the community.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Thanks Phoenix. I agree with EAW in that this has brought the majority of the indie community closer. We share successes and hurts. What involves one of us, involves us all. So, when someone gets their toe stepped on, we all should say, "Ouch." I'm a Marine. Next to Husband and Dad, that's more of who I am than anything else. Under certain corcumstances, more so. If given the option of looking away or taking up the fight, it's simple. Bullies only respond to one thing.


----------



## 75814

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


Wayne, when we get a chance to meet, I'm bringing you a bottle of rum. You're amazing!



PhoenixS said:


> Wayne and Elizabeth, I've sparred often with you both. And while I likely won't stop the sparring (too much fun!), please know whatever professional differences we may have, you have both earned my utmost respect over these last 4 months. In the ways that matter most, we have no differences. Thank you for helping me see that. And for putting community first. ♥♥♥












Seconded (and Giphy apparently won't let me embed gifs on message boards anymore).


----------



## unkownwriter

Wayne, I am once again blown away. Not to get too sappy, but you are the man. As the daughter, sister and cousin (and ex-wife) of truckers, and as a fellow vet, let me just say, brother, you've got the right stuff. I wish I could remember the proper trucker/CBer lingo, but I'm sure you could express it simply and with gusto. 

As others have said, I don't always agree with what some in the indie community say, but when it comes down to it, those of us who value ethics, honesty and just behaving decently to other human beings, are standing up with Christina for what is right. A line must be drawn, wherever it may be for each individual, and for this, it's here.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

PhoenixS said:


> Wayne and Elizabeth, I've sparred often with you both. And while I likely won't stop the sparring (too much fun!), please know whatever professional differences we may have, you have both earned my utmost respect over these last 4 months. In the ways that matter most, we have no differences. Thank you for helping me see that. And for putting community first. ♥♥♥


So much this. The folks in this thread are some of the best in our community. Mad respect to all of you. ❤&#129304;&#127995;&#129304;&#127995;

Donate here: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


I think this is headline-making: '_Ex-trucker promises monetary support for author's libel case_'. It would make a good story; bring more publicity to the case, and perhaps even more funding. Anyone got contacts with a newspaper reporter?


----------



## 41419

I have a huge amount of respect for everyone here.

People have been incredible - not just Wayne who has blown me away with how he stepped up here - but there has been staggering generosity overall. It's amazing to see the total continuing to rise all the time. Others have been very brave in how they spoke out, especially those at the start who took the first steps without knowing how much support was out there. Much respect, especially Christina who risked a hell of a lot to take this on. And kudos to everyone who expressed solidarity, here and elsewhere. It's so heartening to see the community come together. Much love to y'all.

Now can we just win this thing and go back to snarking at each other? 

kthxbai


----------



## thesmallprint

When Armageddon comes, I hope we are all together in a trench. With Wayne leading us, we'd have a better than fair chance of surviving.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Acheknia said:


> Maybe ex-trucker should say Marine
> Great idea though (if Wayne agrees) you don't need to know a reporter, the news could be sent to papers or 'leaked anonymously') lol.
> Preferably by someone in the US, so that it goes to the best papers
> 
> So many comments on here need an 'I love this post' button


Might be good publicity for Wayne's books. Sell more books = more money for the fund. Win Win


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

dgaughran said:


> Now can we just win this thing and go back to snarking at each other?


Ah, if only our legal system worked that fast. Gonna be a while, but fingers crossed for a huge win for Christina ... but that doesn't mean we can't keep the snark going in the meantime.


----------



## 41419

Rick Gualtieri said:


> but that doesn't mean we can't keep the snark going in the meantime.


*unfolds nunchucks*


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> I think this was honestly a case of "enough is enough" for both me and the community as a whole. I had given serious thought to letting her keep the money owed me just to avoid the backlash. But when I was falsely accused of plagiarizing/pirating a book and scheming to break KU's ToS, we crossed the Rubicon.


And you are taking blows for those who have also had their lives/careers impacted but couldn't fight back. Without consequences, these things will continue to happen... because they can.

This is such a huge fight you have taken on- seeing how much money it costs to even start a legal case is daunting.

Thank you for being strong.


----------



## thesmallprint

And let's keep it going . . .

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Rick Gualtieri said:


> ... but that doesn't mean we can't keep the snark going in the meantime.





dgaughran said:


> *unfolds nunchucks*












*Peeks in to look sternly at Rick and David*


----------



## unkownwriter

Uh oh! Quick! The mods are looking, everybody act innocent.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Boyd said:


> I am innocence personified.


----------



## unkownwriter

Boyd, behave. The rest of us are being really nice, and here you go, trying to suck up to the mods. Bad, Boyd, bad.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thanks for the kinds words and the smiles, guys. 

I just wanted to let everyone know that I updated the offline donations on my funding page to reflect some donations sent directly to my PayPal account. Thank you to those who were having issues with the funding page and were still willing to donate. We even saved the 7% in fees 

We're now at $19,000 which is absolutely amazing. The words are inadequate, but thank you.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

A Labor Day bump for the hard-working folks at kboards.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Kicked in another $200 to get you to $19,224. Somebody needs to push us over that pesky dollar hump! Should have done $201. 

Good luck and hold fast, Christina. You've got a mountain of folks behind you.

I think she's going to find she should have settled. Here's a useful moral for publishing from somebody who's been doing it a whole big 5 years now but has at least learned this much. Karma's a witch, it's a small community, and a reputation is a precious thing. Watch what you do, and watch who you play with. Whether it's this, a promo site, or dodgy cross-promotions with people who may be botting--check it out first. Losing some money is one thing. Losing your KDP account and your good name is another.

And as they say--you've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. (Sorry; I have an endless mental soundtrack of country music appropriate for any occasion, LOL.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_s-Qk07KxA


----------



## Silly Writer

This is awesome. *I'm all teared up*

Thanks, Wayne, and everyone for your generosity to Christina. Hopefully, this will teach the person in question that there is a comeuppance for the way she treated us--her victims--and keep all other businesses who offer services to Indies on their toes. Obviously, this industry isn't new anymore. We've built a community now. Our walls are getting thicker and thicker and we no longer have to just shut up if we're swindled, cheated, scammed or shamed.

Christina, thanks for helping us see that.

Be a part of it, people! Give if you can to help reach the goal. It's so close!

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/

etc: typo


----------



## lilywhite

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


Ladies and gentlemen, the next President-Elect of NINC.

I'm proud to be your friend, Wayne.


----------



## Jerry S.

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


Wow. Just. Wow!

Its an honor to know people like the ones who have helped Christina. And even bigger honor to rub elbows with you Wayne. From what I know of you, I think I would enjoy having a beer with you as we seem to be of like mind. I am not as flush with disposable income (we're possibly looking at a new addition to our family), but I'm glad that in a way that my $ I've spent on your books (especially your "blue collar to no collar" book) is in turn used for such charitable giving and for helping others fight the good fight.

Christina, keep fighting the good fight. You are an inspiration to many and I am eager for the day you come here with news of victory.

Wayne, I cannot <3 your post enough and will simply end this again with...

Wow.


----------



## K.Peters

I wish you luck in this. I've had my share of courtrooms to last a lifetime and I'm petrified of courthouses. Stall tactics and the endless waiting for court dates that get postponed... time for discovery... postponements... unable to get good service... lying... the list goes on and on... So, I lack faith in the judicial system, sorry to say. 

Be strong and know that this is probably going to be the marathon of a lifetime and you're going to wish it was all just over and done with at... well, at many points. Don't do what's easy... do what's right. Eventually, justice will be somewhat served. I believe in that. Unfortunately, you nerves are going to be frayed at times and you will be changed by all of this but you have a lot of support here. A lot of people believe in you. I'm personally very proud of you because I know what you're going through. Keep the faith, sister!


----------



## lilywhite

Bump.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## ImaWriter

Bumping.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## MyraScott

I think today is the day she has to answer the lawsuit, isn't it?    *Don't forget to donate!


----------



## MyraScott

A new donation has another sad story to relate:



> I wish I could give you all the money I've given this person in the past few months. Talking thousands of dollars.
> Unfortunately, I made bad business decisions and worse personal decisions about who to trust. Thank you for shining a light on the ugliness that was hidden from many.
> I'm sorry I was so doubtful in the beginning. Seeing both the mistreatment of another author behind closed doors, as well as researching some of the more dubious claims of success with this person's promotions and finding out they are misrepresented and downright lies was eye opening.
> Good luck with your case. Whatever ends up happening in the court room, at the very least you've already created change in the indie community.
> I wish I could offer more than a few measly dollars.


This really is a cause the community needs to back. People are still being taken in.


----------



## C. Gockel

> This really is a cause the community needs to back. People are still being taken in.


Wow. I'd heard that this lawsuit had made people more honest in their dealings. Apparently, not so.


----------



## Monique

C. Gockel said:


> Wow. I'd heard that this lawsuit had made people more honest in their dealings. Apparently, not so.


Yeah, no.

A leopard doesn't change its spots applies well here.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> I think today is the day she has to answer the lawsuit, isn't it?


It is. I'll update this thread and post a link to her filing once I've received it.



MyraScott said:


> A new donation has another sad story to relate:
> 
> This really is a cause the community needs to back. People are still being taken in.


I saw that quote on my funding page and felt such empathy. It's hard to admit we've been duped and taken advantage of, and I understand what it costs to do so--especially with the backlash that may come. There's a reason this person and many others have chosen to post and/or donate anonymously.

Having said that, several people have come forward to offer support in the form of information and screenshots and it is so very helpful. Anyone who feels called to help can reach out to me either on KBoards or FB. My website has a contact form where I can be reached anonymously. And if you're someone who initially did not believe my version of events, I'm not holding a grudge, so don't let that stop you from reaching out.

One brave author stepped forward a few weeks ago when we were fighting the motion to quash, signing a sworn statement that she, too, used several of Rebecca's services while residing in California. It was brave and very helpful. Regardless of the outcome of the case, shining a light on these practices is important, and I am deeply grateful to the community for supporting me in a myriad of ways while we do just that.

Last week there was some activity in the case I can't post about, but I will say that we're learning the tactics the opposition will be using and they are... Well, I'm just going to call them "unorthodox" and leave it at that.

Thanks to all of you and expect an update late today.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

MyraScott said:


> This really is a cause the community needs to back. People are still being taken in.


Change happens by opening one set of eyes at a time.


----------



## unkownwriter

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Change happens by opening one set of eyes at a time.


True, so true.

People who thought they were alone, that they messed up, it was something they did, now know that this is a continuing pattern of behavior that had been hidden out of fear of retribution. And it hasn't stopped this one person at all. Not to go beyond the bounds of this thread, so no further comment on that.

Myra, that's such a sad story. I hope that person knows that we are behind them with support. They didn't do anything wrong.


----------



## lilywhite

Keeping the link front-and-center: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> Keeping the link front-and-center: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


Thanks, that's really kind <3

Just an update to say there isn't one yet. I had assumed their response would be emailed to my attorney as the motion was, but it looks like it was only snail mailed. The deadline was yesterday and I assume they met it, but we may not have the papers for another day or two. I will post a link when I have it. I expect a demurrer, but we'll know for sure soon.


----------



## Mary Crawford

If she filed a motion to demurrer, she may have boxed herself into a corner under the new rules of Civil Procedure in California. http://www.geracilawfirm.com/Events-Insights-News/2016/March/Demurrer-or-Not-to-Demurrer.aspx


----------



## C. Gold

Mary Crawford said:


> If she filed a motion to demurrer, she may have boxed herself into a corner under the new rules of Civil Procedure in California. http://www.geracilawfirm.com/Events-Insights-News/2016/March/Demurrer-or-Not-to-Demurrer.aspx


That's actually a cool thing they passed to try and get people to resolve their issues outside of court. Can't wait to see how this pans out...


----------



## MyraScott

That's very interesting, especially this part:



> ... defense counsel should take pause to assess whether the filing of a demurrer will simply give the plaintiff a road map as to how perfect the allegations in the complaint. The addition of Section 430.41 may very well force defense counsel to evaluate whether a demurrer is warranted or if the time, expense, and energy should be focused on filing a motion for summary judgment or summary adjudication.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


Thank you so much. There is nothing I'd like to see more than to have this person stopped. You are helping to open a door that she cannot hide behind. We are all rooting for success in this endeavor, doing what we can personally, but you, sir, are making it possible. Behind closed doors, many of us who have fallen victim to this person are very grateful.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

ChristinaGarner said:


> I had assumed their response would be emailed to my attorney as the motion was, but it looks like it was only snail mailed. The deadline was yesterday and I assume they met it, but we may not have the papers for another day or two. I will post a link when I have it. I expect a demurrer, but we'll know for sure soon.


Resorting to regular mail for the sole purpose of postponing the inevitable by a couple of days, is her way of grasping at straws to hold her up, as the waters begin to circulate around the drain.


----------



## Mary Crawford

The attorney in me is going nuts waiting for some new development.  As someone who has been taken (in a small way) by Ms. Hamilton, I have been cheering you along the whole time.

Impatient in Oregon...

Mary (Current, but not practicing Civil Rights Lawyer in Oregon)


----------



## Ava Glass

Mary Crawford said:


> The attorney in me is going nuts waiting for some new development. As someone who has been taken (in a small way) by Ms. Hamilton, I have been cheering you along the whole time.
> 
> Impatient in Oregon...
> 
> Mary (Current, but not practicing Civil Rights Lawyer in Oregon)


On the website, it says Rebecca Hamilton's lawyers filed a "Motion to Strike (not anti-SLAPP) - Without Demurrer"

The motion seeks to strike parts of Christina's complaint, particularly parts regarding punitive damages and attorney's fees.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Ava Glass said:


> On the website, it says Rebecca Hamilton's lawyers filed a "Motion to Strike (not anti-SLAPP) - Without Demurrer"
> 
> The motion seeks to strike parts of Christina's complaint, particularly parts regarding punitive damages and attorney's fees.


Thank you for that! Last I checked it wasn't updated. Once I confirmed with my attorney there had not been a call with opposing counsel regarding a demurrer, we discussed a motion to strike as an option. I don't have any papers yet but will post them when I do.


----------



## Ava Glass

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thank you for that! Last I checked it wasn't updated. Once I confirmed with my attorney there had not been a call with opposing counsel regarding a demurrer, we discussed a motion to strike as an option. I don't have any papers yet but will post them when I do.


The update is not visible unless you create an account. I don't know why.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Here is the defendant's filing for a motion to strike:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0SHZNQjRnUERNVUk/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

ChristinaGarner said:


> Here is the defendant's filing for a motion to strike:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0SHZNQjRnUERNVUk/view?usp=sharing


If an innocent person was served a lawsuit, it seems that the most reasonable thing to do would be to *answer and defend* oneself. From the defendant's responses, it is clear she is doing everything possible to avoid actually having to answer to the accusations against her. The repeated attempts to circumvent the system speak volumes. Innocent people don't run, hide, and deflect.

Looks like this will be a race to see who can keep paying a lawyer the longest. Like others in this thread have already mentioned, let's keep this fund front & center. 
https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Aaronhodges

For those of us not up to date on US/law terms, what's a motion to strike and how does it compare to her last motion? (curious george here XD)


----------



## C. Gold

Aaronhodges said:


> For those of us not up to date on US/law terms, what's a motion to strike and how does it compare to her last motion? (curious george here XD)


Looks like a delaying tactic where she's saying that certain things like lawyer fees are not justified and she's asking the court to strike (cross) them off the list.
She's basically standing in a very hot place throwing snowballs to try and deflect what's coming.


----------



## cdk

> If she filed a motion to demurrer, she may have boxed herself into a corner under the new rules of Civil Procedure in California. http://www.geracilawfirm.com/Events-Insights-News/2016/March/Demurrer-or-Not-to-Demurrer.aspx


Good to know. Thanks for the link.



> Looks like a delaying tactic.


Actually it's a very standard practice to make a motion to strike, and in some cases, not making a motion to strike is malpractice. It has at least two intended purposes. If the court grants the motion, it limits the defendant's exposure for what is likely to be the plaintiff's largest areas of recovery in this case - attorney fees and punitive damages. Second, if the court doesn't grant the motion to strike punitive damages, the plaintiff is entitled to discovery of the defendant's personal assets, and that's reason enough to make a motion to strike.


----------



## Not any more

ChristinaGarner said:


> Here is the defendant's filing for a motion to strike:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0SHZNQjRnUERNVUk/view?usp=sharing


This is a typical delaying tactic, aimed primarily at deflecting and running up the plaintiff's lawyer bills. She hasn't replied to any of the actual guts of the original complaint, simply pushed back on some technical aspects.


----------



## CABarrett

cdk said:


> Actually it's a very standard practice to make a motion to strike, and in some cases, not making a motion to strike is malpractice. It has at least two intended purposes. If the court grants the motion, it limits the defendant's exposure for what is likely to be the plaintiff's largest areas of recovery in this case - attorney fees and punitive damages. Second, if the court doesn't grant the motion to strike punitive damages, the plaintiff is entitled to discovery of the defendant's personal assets, and that's reason enough to make a motion to strike.


Thank you. I was about to post something similar. These motions are (unfortunately) normal, not yet replying to the substance yet is normal, and I wouldn't interpret them as evidence of either personal dishonesty or a strategy based on delay. Lawsuits are bloated and lumbering things because our legal system is cautious, so these early steps are more like going through airport security when you know you don't have any weapons in your carryon, than a sports match where your side scores a point. Keep supporting Christina because it will be a long road yet.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

brkingsolver said:


> This is a typical delaying tactic, aimed primarily at deflecting and running up the plaintiff's lawyer bills.


While at the same time, asking that the lawyer bills not to be included in the judgement.

If this is standard practice, with a bunch of back-and-forth lawyer speak, it just further reinforces what I said about the travesty our judicial system has become.


----------



## cdk

> If this is standard practice, with a bunch of back-and-forth lawyer speak, it just further reinforces what I said about the travesty our judicial system has become.


Not necessarily. If the court grants a motion to strike, which has the effect of limiting the defendant's exposure, then there's a good chance the case settles early. My recollection is the complaint isn't asking for an exorbitant amount, so if the motion is granted, prolonging litigation means the defendant's attorney fees will exceed the damages sought in the complaint, and at this point, it's just smarter to settle than to continue. It's foolish to rack-up $40k in attorney fees when your liability is $10k. That's actually a quicker resolution than the trial everyone is hoping for. It's only a "travesty" if there's no merit to the motion, and for that, plaintiff's counsel can seek sanctions for filing a frivolous motion.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

cdk said:


> Not necessarily. If the court grants a motion to strike, which has the effect of limiting the defendant's exposure, then there's a good chance the case settles early. My recollection is the complaint isn't asking for an exorbitant amount, so if the motion is granted, prolonging litigation means the defendant's attorney fees will exceed the damages sought in the complaint, and at this point, it's just smarter to settle than to continue. It's foolish to rack-up $40k in attorney fees when your liability is $10k. That's actually a quicker resolution than the trial everyone is hoping for. It's only a "travesty" if there's no merit to the motion, and for that, plaintiff's counsel can seek sanctions for filing a frivolous motion.


This gets more and more interesting - if not quite curioser and curioser . It might be a bit of a damp squib if she decides to settle, but a public apology is what is needed.


----------



## GeneDoucette

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> This gets more and more interesting - if not quite curioser and curioser . It might be a bit of a damp squib if she decides to settle, but a public apology is what is needed.


I don't know what 'damp squib' means but I plan to use it in conversation immediately.


----------



## BellaRoccaforte

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Seeking justice should never be about money. Yet, that's what our legal system has become. Christina, check with your attorney on this if you don't already know. but, if the defendant were to pull every delaying tactic possible, simply to force it to be a matter of who has the deepest pockets, what will the total legal fees be? Will the current fund amount cover it? What would be the longest time table?
> 
> At the end of the month, the $25K will be fully funded. That, I guarantee. If others in our community miss the mark, I'll cover it. If this goes to the end of October.... Well, I just released a book on August 23rd, and it's doing pretty good. It'd been a slow month up to that point, but I'll have well into five digits of blow money available at the end of October. My pool's done, the driveway's finished, and the down payment on my next boat is in the bank. I've run out of things to spend money on.
> 
> Most folks in the community know who and what I am. Cheaters, bullies, and criminals get no quarter from me. I'll say it again, so that the opposition can read me loud and clear. Money will NOT be an issue in this proceeding. Full disclosure: I'll earn over $400K this year and I only pay myself $120K. My charitable giving eats another $25K, so there's still a huge hunk left. I can wait a couple more months for the boat.


Wayne, I want to make you yummy food. It's my way of showing gratitude to good humans. You inspire me.


----------



## Evenstar

GeneDoucette said:


> I don't know what 'damp squib' means but I plan to use it in conversation immediately.


A damp squib is when you are expecting a firework to give a massive kaboom and it just goes pfft.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Just popping in to check in. Whether there's a settlement or a trial, I hope for a positive outcome for both Christina and the community as a whole. From what I gather, the motion to strike is common practice, not a delaying tactic but definitely a symptom of our lengthy legal process. Even simple things can take ages. Hang in there, Christina. <3


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Evenstar said:


> A damp squib is when you are expecting a firework to give a massive kaboom and it just goes pfft.


Great explanation 

a damp squib (British & Australian)
an event which people think will be exciting but which is disappointing when it happens
Usage notes: A squib is a type of firework (= a small container filled with chemicals which explodes to produce bright lights and loud noises) and if it becomes wet, it will not explode.
The party turned out to be a bit of a damp squib. Half the people who'd been invited didn't turn up.


----------



## 91831

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Great explanation
> 
> a damp squib (British & Australian)
> an event which people think will be exciting but which is disappointing when it happens
> Usage notes: A squib is a type of firework (= a small container filled with chemicals which explodes to produce bright lights and loud noises) and if it becomes wet, it will not explode.
> The party turned out to be a bit of a damp squib. Half the people who'd been invited didn't turn up.


Also, a person born into a magical family with no magical powers who got stuck in the rain.
See: Argus Filch after falling into the Great Lake.


----------



## GeneDoucette

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Great explanation
> 
> a damp squib (British & Australian)
> an event which people think will be exciting but which is disappointing when it happens
> Usage notes: A squib is a type of firework (= a small container filled with chemicals which explodes to produce bright lights and loud noises) and if it becomes wet, it will not explode.
> The party turned out to be a bit of a damp squib. Half the people who'd been invited didn't turn up.


The onomatopoeia of British slang never ceases to amuse.


----------



## lilywhite

The fact that Wayne has offered to be the payor of last resort doesn't mean we all get to take a break now and blow our money on hookers and coke, guys. Let's keep this thing moving:

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/

(Christina, I've been trying to donate this evening but I'm getting an error. I think it's likely me, not you, and I'll try again tomorrow!)


----------



## JRTomlin

"Damp squib" is occasionally mistakenly written as "damp squid' which seems to pretty severely miss the point of the phrase.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

A Monday morning bump as this is an important ongoing topic for the indie world to watch.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Can anyone with a lawyer-ish background unofficially explain "cross-complaints" I had someone share with me that Rebecca could name anyone she wants in this lawsuit as a cross-complaint. 

I'm not worried about the risk to myself, if I was named, I would rise to the occasion accordingly and be happy to share my knowledge on the established practices for book marketers since I was one for 3 years. 

But there's a lot of fear out there right now that just sharing links or talking about what's going on is "spreading gossip" and means we will have to pay damages to Rebecca. I guess I am asking is if a business can claim people can't make public reviews about them? I was under the understanding that opinions and factual statements are protected.


----------



## MyraScott

I don't have a legal background but I would call that "scare tactics" aimed at anyone who might be thinking of telling their story/sharing evidence with Christina.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> I don't have a legal background but I would call that "scare tactics" aimed at anyone who might be thinking of telling their story/sharing evidence with Christina.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Mary Crawford

https://www.thebalance.com/what-are-the-defenses-against-defamation-398755

This is a pretty good explanation.

(From a purely legal standpoint, if Rebecca started adding cross-complaints, she would soon drown in legal bills. In my opinion, this is just another of her tactics to attempt to bully and silence critics.)


----------



## MyraScott

That's a really good article.



> If the statement is true, there is no defamation.


Repeating facts isn't defamation.

Claiming things that aren't true... like someone is trying to kill your children or has plagiarized your books, are defamation.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Can anyone with a lawyer-ish background unofficially explain "cross-complaints" I had someone share with me that Rebecca could name anyone she wants in this lawsuit as a cross-complaint.
> 
> I'm not worried about the risk to myself, if I was named, I would rise to the occasion accordingly and be happy to share my knowledge on the established practices for book marketers since I was one for 3 years.
> 
> But there's a lot of fear out there right now that just sharing links or talking about what's going on is "spreading gossip" and means we will have to pay damages to Rebecca. I guess I am asking is if a business can claim people can't make public reviews about them? I was under the understanding that opinions and factual statements are protected.





MyraScott said:


> I don't have a legal background but I would call that "scare tactics" aimed at anyone who might be thinking of telling their story/sharing evidence with Christina.


I read the post, and it definitely sounded like a warning/threat aimed at anyone speaking out that they, too, could be named in the lawsuit and every individual named would be hit with "tens of thousands" of dollars in legal fees.

On a related note, the FTC filed suit (ongoing) in a similar situation against a company who threatened to sue those who voiced negative opinions: 


> According to the complaint filed in federal court by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), Sarasota-based Roca Labs Inc., Roca Labs Nutraceutical USA Inc. and their principals had sued or were threatening to sue customers who complained to the Better Business Bureau or made negative postings online against the company.





> ...the FTC criticized Roca Labs' warnings, threats and lawsuits, saying such actions keep consumers from sharing truthful, negative comments about a company and its products.


See full article HERE
and the case documents HERE

And in later developments, the FTC won a motion to freeze the assets of the company read HERE.


> And an asset freeze is even more necessary given the commission's likelihood of bringing home a win on their allegations that the supplement company marketed its products with unsubstantiated scientific claims and threatened customers with lawsuits to stop them from leaving negative reviews, the judge said.


Might be worth having your lawyer examine that FTC case, Christina. 
List of case developments HERE


----------



## unkownwriter

I've never said anything that wasn't true, or that I believed to be true, so there. Also, there's no point suing someone who has no money or other assets. Can't get blood from a turnip, or whatever.

I agree that it's just scare tactics, much like the intimidation that is business as usual for Hamilton.


----------



## Mary Crawford

I am not finding much specific case law since the new rules of Civil Procedure were enacted in California. Rather than steer you wrong because this is neither my area of practice, nor my jurisdiction, I'll wait for the official answer from Christina's talented attornies.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

usedtocare said:


> Might be worth having your lawyer examine that FTC case, Christina.
> List of case developments HERE


Thank you--that's a very interesting read.


----------



## PhoenixS

Mary Crawford said:


> (From a purely legal standpoint, if Rebecca started adding cross-complaints, she would soon drown in legal bills. In my opinion, this is just another of her tactics to attempt to bully and silence critics.)


Interesting, Mary.

I'm assuming that this isn't like simply calling in a witness. That if she attaches a cross-complainant, that it means she's actually suing them too and asking for damages. Which, if I'm reading this bit correctly, is where the hefty legal bills on her side would start piling up?

Speaking only to the process, would my layman's understanding in general be correct that: First, she would need to be sure she has solid evidence of intent to defame and resulting harm, and would need to have her lawyer draw up the papers with those allegations and the evidence for them just as Christina first had to draw up the initial suit papers. Then she'd have to pay to have those papers served on whomever. And then when the person files a demurrer or motion to strike citing their own evidence, she'd have to pay to counter or else drop the allegations.

I understand why you're not willing to speak to the actual case law in such matters since it's not your area of expertise, but in just looking at all the process steps leading up to a trial, would it be fair to say that the cost for bringing a cross-complaint against any one other person is on par with what she's already spent in costs to fight Christina? And then its times all that again per each new cross-complainant she attaches?


----------



## Mary Crawford

Adding parties to a case is not a simple process. Each party must be examined for conflicts of interest with not only the attorney handling the case but every attorney in the firm. Additionally, every attorney with their salt would need to do due diligence to make sure that the case is not frivolous or maliciously brought. If they do not, they could face sanctions from the court (and the California State Bar). That takes time and money on the part of investigators, paralegals, and others. Drafting pleadings is a time involved process and service across state lines is difficult, even electronically. Have I mentioned that the defamation, slander, and libel are difficult concepts to prove? Christina's efforts have shown that there are a whole lot of people who have a whole lot of negative experiences with Rebecca Hamilton. 

It took Christina's bravery to encourage other people to come forward. If Rebecca Hamilton starts threatening other people with additional lawsuits, the floodgates might just break wide open. I suspect she might be wishing she would've just settled and made a public apology right about now.


----------



## Guest

Mary Crawford said:


> If Rebecca Hamilton starts threatening other people with additional lawsuits, the floodgates might just break wide open.


I believe the opposite. For some people tangling with her has been their worse nightmare and this compounds an already horrid situation. There are people who have gone to ground over her bullying and hoping like hell all this blows over the top of their bunker


----------



## cdk

Let me first preface my comments by saying my area of expertise is criminal law, but I have a sibling who is a vexatious litigant, so I've had to learn a fair amount of civil as well.



> Can anyone with a lawyer-ish background unofficially explain "cross-complaints" I had someone share with me that Rebecca could name anyone she wants in this lawsuit as a cross-complaint.


A cross-complaint is a claim by the defendant against another party to the lawsuit, or a claim by the defendant against a person who is not currently a party to the action regarding a matter that relates to the subject of the action.

You can't stop someone from filing a cross-complaint, the same way you can't stop someone from suing you. That said, take comfort in knowing that *generally*, a cross-complainant has to establish the cross-defendant has minimum contacts with California to warrant personal jurisdiction to be sued in California, and I don't know how likely it is that a court will deem a person has sufficient contacts with a state just because they post comments on a website.



> If the statement is true, there is no defamation.


True, but the determination of the truthfulness of a statement is a question of fact for the trier of fact. Sometimes easier said than done. Think of all the times this board has debated the interpretation of Amazon's terms and conditions, with everyone ending their post with "how do they (the other side) not get this." The truth of the statement, as well as the manner in which it was conveyed, (fact or opinion) is open to interpretation.



> But there's a lot of fear out there right now that just sharing links or talking about what's going on is "spreading gossip" and means we will have to pay damages to Rebecca. I guess I am asking is if a business can claim people can't make public reviews about them? I was under the understanding that opinions and factual statements are protected.


Beyond my area of expertise, and as far as I know, it's an area of law that's still being tested in terms of posting comments, opinions, reviews on websites. But my 2 cents:

Negative things said about a defendant, even though individually may not be actionable against the person who said them, could theoretically support a claim for damages if the defendant has an actionable claim against a party. I doubt that sharing links could result in damages, but for example if A and B have a falling out, and C, D, and E express negative opinions about B as a result of that falling out, what C, D, and E, said may not be actionable, but if B sued A, negative comments by C, D, and E could support a claim for general damages to the injury of B's reputation. When in doubt, make sure your comments are phrased as opinion, as opposed to fact.



> I would call that "scare tactics"


Welcome to Law 101.


----------



## Becca Mills

Now that we're several months and a number of pages in with this thread, it may be helpful to revisit our site owner's early post:



chc said:


> After further discussion, we've decided to reopen this thread. We ask that it remain _specifically focused_ on Christina's legal case rather than other issues related to Rebecca Hamilton. We have already hosted one lengthy and very difficult thread about RH and we feel that thread was enough.


So in keeping with the above, please keep in mind that this thread is not the place to discuss RH's behavior beyond whatever actions she's taking as defendant in the lawsuit.


----------



## unkownwriter

> When in doubt, make sure your comments are phrased as opinion, as opposed to fact.


Good idea. In the interest of full disclosure, everything I say on the Internet is my opinion, or related to actual incidents that have happened to me, and is the truth as far as I am able to determine.

I think Hamilton is heading down a rabbit hole in trying to threaten the involvement of others into this thing. I mean, I read something and opined on it, that was an opinion on something someone else opined on, which they heard from somewhere else that had commented on something they read about something some anonymous poster said somewhere else...

Now my head hurts.


----------



## 75814

Tilly said:


> I believe the opposite. For some people tangling with her has been their worse nightmare and this compounds an already horrid situation. There are people who have gone to ground over her bullying and hoping like hell all this blows over the top of their bunker


Well, this might actually work against her in other ways. Not necessarily with people trying to stand up to her legal threats, but with them deciding her services just aren't worth the hassle. I don't know about the rest of you, but if a service provider I regularly used started making not-so-subtle threats about her ability to sue anyone she wants at no extra charge, then the first thing I'd do (after I stopped laughing at how ridiculous that claim is, of course) is find another service provider.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

JRTomlin said:


> "Damp squib" is occasionally mistakenly written as "damp squid' which seems to pretty severely miss the point of the phrase.


Probably due to auto spellcheck somewhere along the line  .


----------



## thesmallprint

And, lest we forget, with 10 days remaining the target for fundraising is still there. https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

A quick bumpity bump bump .... https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Folks: while we are all for keeping the thread and website link visible, please do remember that, in general, posts that just say 'bump' or something like it, are not really allowed.

If you want to bump, use some grown up words; you're all authors.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Ann in Arlington said:


> If you want to bump, use some grown up words; you're all authors.


Sorry. You're quite right. Had I taken a second or two to organize my words I would have probably said: this isn't the "exciting" part of the trial, but it is a crucial one ... where motions are being made to strike and/or delay things. And it's important to not let this slip below the radar as it really does affect us all and the industry as a whole.


----------



## MyraScott

Here's a reminder of the heart of the case from Christina's overview:



> This promoter has been bullying people into silence for years. She's run multiple authors out of her genre and others out of self-publishing altogether. I believe this has to stop. I believe someone has to stand up for the people who are too nice, too overwhelmed, and too afraid to admit they too, have been defrauded, lied to, and harassed.


This continues! Right now, this promoter is simply whipping up new "opportunities" to pay for her legal fees, funded by people who want to believe she has all the magic secrets to publishing success. She announced that she has no intention of settling- apparently, she can easily keep up with the legal fees.

She's issued what's basically a warning to people that she can include them in a cross claim, saying it will cost them thousands in legal fees but cost her nothing. The intimidation tactics and threats continue- this is exactly why seeing this case through is important. A judgement against her will include a public acknowledgement of wrongdoing and an apology.

Accusing people of plagiarism in the writing community is striking at a common fear we all share; it is extremely effective intimidation and a deterrent to others who might want to stop doing business with her after seeing the tactics her promotions use.

Help if you can! 
https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## cdk

> She's issued what's basically a warning to people that she can include them in a cross claim, saying it will cost them thousands in legal fees but cost her nothing. The intimidation tactics and threats continue- this is exactly why seeing this case through is important.


Threatening scare tactics have a good chance of backfiring in this instance because they could support a finding of malice, which is an element of punitive damages. So a defendant's attempt to scare people into silence, could really be helping the plaintiff prove punitive damages in the case.

I don't know all the facts that are alleged, but if being entitled to punitive damages requires that I prove malice, oppression, or fraud, and a way to determine the reprehensibility of a defendant's conduct can be determined by "[w]hether [the] conduct involved a pattern or practice," (as stated in the jury instruction) I fight hard to get in evidence of the defendant's conduct not just against the plaintiff, but the same menacing conduct terrorizing an entire community of authors, and no doubt the defendant fights just as hard to keep this evidence out. Every case is different.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

cdk said:


> Threatening scare tactics have a good chance of backfiring in this instance because they could support a finding of malice, which is an element of punitive damages. So a defendant's attempt to scare people into silence, could really be helping the plaintiff prove punitive damages in the case.
> 
> I don't know all the facts that are alleged, but if being entitled to punitive damages requires that I prove malice, oppression, or fraud, and a way to determine the reprehensibility of a defendant's conduct can be determined by "[w]hether [the] conduct involved a pattern or practice," (as stated in the jury instruction) I fight hard to get in evidence of the defendant's conduct not just against the plaintiff, but the same menacing conduct terrorizing an entire community of authors, and no doubt the defendant fights just as hard to keep this evidence out. Every case is different.


It was a public post that has since been removed(I'm told it's not removed, but I can't guarantee it will stay up) and people took screenshots of it. The post did not specifically name anyone, but more than a few of us took it as a threat she would add us to the lawsuit just for posting about it.

I am not Wayne, but I too am going to stay dedicated to supporting the costs of the case into the new year because this situation has affected so much of our industry. I won't go into that as it's all well itemized in the megathread.

It might end up being like the Bleak House and in the end there's a judgment and not a penny left in the coffer, but there are very big legal questions in this case that directly pertain to the future of our industry. . . we owe ourselves the tenacity to see it through and get those answered, in my opinion.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It was a public post that has since been removed and people took screenshots of it. The post did not specifically name anyone, but more than a few of us took it as a threat she would add us to the lawsuit just for posting about it.
> 
> I am not Wayne, but I too am going to stay dedicated to supporting the costs of the case into the new year because this situation has affected so much of our industry. I won't go into that as it's all well itemized in the megathread.
> 
> It might end up being like the Bleak House and in the end there's a judgment and not a penny left in the coffer, but there are very big legal questions in this case that directly pertain to the future of our industry. . . we owe ourselves the tenacity to see it through and get those answered, in my opinion.


This case might set a precedent and be cited in future cases.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> It was a public post that has since been removed and people took screenshots of it. The post did not specifically name anyone, but more than a few of us took it as a threat she would add us to the lawsuit just for posting about it.


I also took that statement she made as a threat, in the same manner as you did. However, I'm surprised if she wrote that statement based off of actual legal advice from her current counsel. I asked my attorney about the statement she made, and was advised that for the Defendant to add thirds parties in a cross-complaint, third parties would be those she claims to be liable to the defendant for all or part of the plaintiff's claim against the defendant (essentially, blaming others for what she has done, a defense of "it wasn't my fault, it was their fault"). I do not believe that she can just decide to sue other people and add them onto the current suit she is involved in, unless she is blaming them as the reason why she did what she did. How it was explained to me is that third-parties named in a cross-complaint have to be directly related to the transaction or occurrence that is the subject matter of the original action. Sure, she could file a new lawsuit on her own as a Plaintiff and name everyone on the internet (for what she described as "trash talking", "spreading rumors", and "cyber bullying"), but she can't just decide to sue everyone she wants to sue by adding it onto the current case against her. It just doesn't work that way.

On a related note, reading on SLAPP lawsuits may be of interest to those who feel the current public statement made by the defendant was, indeed, intended to deter others from speaking out.


> SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation." It refers to a lawsuit filed in retaliation for speaking out on a public issue or controversy. You might be "SLAPPed" for actions such as posting a blog entry, posting a comment on another person's blog, writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper, testifying before the legislature, reporting official misconduct, or circulating a petition. Often, SLAPPs are brought by corporations, developers, or government officials against individuals or community organizations that oppose their actions.
> 
> Lawsuits targeting individuals who post anonymously on the Internet, usually because their posted messages criticize the actions of public figures or corporations, are sometimes called cyberSLAPPs. Like a regular SLAPP, a cyberSLAPP aims at chilling free speech by intimidating critics with the prospect of defending an expensive lawsuit....
> 
> ...As previously mentioned, *the point of a SLAPP is to intimidate and silence the target through the threat of an expensive lawsuit*.


I also found this article interesting from Yelp, who actually has a Consumer Alerts note that appears on the page of some businesses who have engaged in trying to intimidate customers:


> "This business may be trying to abuse the legal system in an effort to stifle free speech, including issuing questionable legal threats against reviews. As a reminder, reviewers who share their experiences have a first Amendment right to express their opinions on Yelp."


----------



## Desert Rose

MyraScott said:


> She announced that she has no intention of settling- apparently, she can easily keep up with the legal fees.


Funny that she can easily pay the legal fees, but issuing refunds to dissatisfied clients would be taking food out of her children's mouths.

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## unkownwriter

Dragovian said:


> Funny that she can easily pay the legal fees, but issuing refunds to dissatisfied clients would be taking food out of her children's mouths.
> 
> https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


I thought it was rather amusing myself. But, threatening and bullying people has worked for her so far, from what I understand*, so it shouldn't be surprising.

*LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This is truth as I know it, expressed as an opinion. Free speech is still protected in this country. So far.


----------



## Susan Stec

MyraScott said:


> I don't have a legal background but I would call that "scare tactics" aimed at anyone who might be thinking of telling their story/sharing evidence with Christina.


Exactly. This is her MO. It would actually be good if she could start dragging people in. That might actually come back and bite her.



MyraScott said:


> That's a really good article.
> 
> Repeating facts isn't defamation.
> 
> Claiming things that aren't true... like someone is trying to kill your children or has plagiarized your books, are defamation.


Especially, when those who have been actually defamed by her have prooof to defend themselves.



GeneDoucette said:


> I don't know what 'damp squib' means but I plan to use it in conversation immediately.


Hahahahahahahaha


----------



## lilywhite

Hey, all, just a heads up.

I've been donating every week or so (whenever I have some extra scratch) and today I got this notice:



> Dear GoGetFunding Donor,
> Thank you for donating to the campaign "It Takes a Community to Take Down a Scammer". You have now made four donations via PayPal.
> Due to PayPal compliance restrictions that are out of our control, you cannot make further donations to this campaign via PayPal.
> If available, you can donate more to this campaign but only with a different payment process if the campaign has enabled that.
> Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
> Kind Regards,
> The GoGetFunding Team


So just be aware that if this happens to you, you can also send money directly to Christina and she can update the GoGetFunding page to reflect that.

It's pretty close to being funded at this second level!

That link again: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## lilywhite

Also, can I just say how funny it is that PayPal will let *cough* someone funnel hundreds of thousands of dollars through their system, breaking the TOS by using F&F to avoid fees, without an objection ... but they're all over me for donating to a charitable cause too many times? LOL Nice job, PayPal. This is precisely the standard of quality I've come to expect from your "services."


----------



## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> Hey, all, just a heads up.
> 
> I've been donating every week or so (whenever I have some extra scratch) and today I got this notice:
> 
> So just be aware that if this happens to you, you can also send money directly to Christina and she can update the GoGetFunding page to reflect that.
> 
> It's pretty close to being funded at this second level!
> 
> That link again: https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


Thanks so much for alerting us to this. I had no idea. A few folks have who have had issues with PayPal have sent the money directly and I've updated the page. (It's the smaller, larger total.) I'll add any other donations I receive that way. For anyone who has similar issues, you can send the money via PayPal Friends and Family (I've confirmed this is allowed, as this money is not for a good or service but an actual gift) to christina[a]christinagarner. com.

Thank you again to each of you. We all know how amazing Wayne has been, but please believe me when I say every dollar counts and is very much appreciated.


----------



## unkownwriter

Good to know about the limit from Paypal. And ironic. Oh, well.

Christina, yeah, it's important to have others continue to donate. Wayne is like, the reserve plan, not the Mr. Moneybags. In my opinion.*

*Legal disclaimer.


----------



## lilywhite

she-la-ti-da said:


> Wayne is like, the reserve plan, not the Mr. Moneybags.


Agreed. It would be too easy to sit back and say "Whew, thank God someone else is willing to be responsible for this." No. We are *all* responsible. This is our industry. This is our livelihood.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## unkownwriter

> Just saying.


Needed saying. 

Thanks, WasAnn. That was a good point.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Re: the 'scare' tactics.

When my friend's elderly uncle received a 'threatening' letter from an attorney his reply was: "I was a Japanese prisoner of war. Don't think anything you do can scare me." 

I thought that was a marvellous comeback  .


----------



## 39416

In twenty-five years of litigation I never once saw a defendant cross-complain against anyone. The reason is that they would be bringing into the lawsuit another party who wants to stomp them. Also, they have to get the judge's ok and the judge will usually only allow it if the new party had a connection to the events underlying the lawsuit, e.g. You sue Sam for what he did to you, and Sam sues Joe asserting it was Joe who told him to do it. Defendants use cross-complaining as attempts to spread the pain. 

BTW defendants almost NEVER issue apologies so it's not a good idea to get hung up on that. Something to be hung up on may be when/if a settlement offer comes (it usually comes the night before the Defendant's deposition when they are faced with two choices: tell the truth and lose the lawsuit, or, lie and face criminal perjury charges) it almost always comes with a demand for Confidentiality. Then the Plaintiff has to choose between her ethical beliefs and getting the money/ending the lawsuit.


----------



## MyraScott

Honestly, anyone who knows about this case will understand that her settling* is* an admission of wrongdoing. Vindication for how _many_ have been treated.

When you look at the amount of money being spent on lawyers by both sides, when this could have all been settled back in January without going to court... or in May when a reasonable settlement was offered... you realize it's all about *not* making that apology.

I guess it's easier to whip up more "opportunities" and just pay the lawyers to drag this out than to face a judge. It's unusual that someone who uses crowdfunding to pay for her family's health care has tens of thousands of dollars available to pay lawyers... over business issues that could have been handled quietly and professionally.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Hey, folks, a reminder to keep the discussion on the legal case.  Posts will be removed that we feel go beyond discussion of the legal issues involved.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Two days left in the fundraiser. And today is payday for some of us. 
https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## lilywhite

Christina, will you start a second fundraiser? This isn't going away anytime soon.


----------



## JRTomlin

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Two days left in the fundraiser. And today is payday for some of us.
> https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


I thought payday was on the 31st.


----------



## Jim Johnson

JRTomlin said:


> I thought payday was on the 31st.


If someone told you your payday is September 31st....yousa gonna be disappointed.


----------



## Silly Writer

Jim Johnson said:


> If someone told you your payday is September 31st....yousa gonna be disappointed.


LOL!


----------



## Not any more

Jim Johnson said:


> If someone told you your payday is September 31st....yousa gonna be disappointed.


I signed up for a promo giveaway that's running from Sept. 15-31.


----------



## JRTomlin

Jim Johnson said:


> If someone told you your payday is September 31st....yousa gonna be disappointed.


Now that you mention it. LOL

Well dang, it was today. Oh, well, it was one of my less wonderful paydays anyway. I think my lowest this year.  

No excuse not to make a contribution though.


----------



## Jim Johnson

brkingsolver said:


> I signed up for a promo giveaway that's running from Sept. 15-31.


Did you pay anything for the promo? Maybe you can get a partial refund for the non-day.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> Christina, will you start a second fundraiser? This isn't going away anytime soon.


Unfortunately, it looks like you're correct, and this will be going on for some time. I will need to ask for more funding as the monies from this fundraiser will likely only last through this motion to strike.

I'm deeply humbled by the support I've received thus far, and while I wish it weren't necessary to rely on the community's continued kindness, the truth is, it's the only way I can see this through. My deepest heartfelt thanks to all who have donated. It means more to me than I can say.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Jim Johnson said:


> If someone told you your payday is September 31st....yousa gonna be disappointed.


Many years ago I worked for a food company that had a sell-by date 10 days hence. The job of working out the date and stamping the stickers (before PC's) was given to a new guy. He'd got to stamping the stickers the 35th December before anyone noticed


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

JRTomlin said:


> Now that you mention it. LOL
> 
> Well dang, it was today. Oh, well, it was one of my less wonderful paydays anyway. I think my lowest this year.
> 
> No excuse not to make a contribution though.


Most amazon payments go out on the 28th. But, not all banks show pending transactions. My old bank did, and I could draw against it. My new bank doesn't show pending transactions, though. However, they appear if I refresh at 12:01 AM.

Y'all! Someone who isn't even a writer made a donation yesterday. And I see Boyd kicked in again. You're drinking free at NINC, my friend. Make no doubt about it, this will be fully funded tomorrow evening.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Quick question: I'm running into that Paypal compliance / donated too many times things myself. So my question is, if a new funding session is started does that reset the donation limit?

https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


----------



## MonkeyScribe

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Y'all! Someone who isn't even a writer made a donation yesterday. And I see Boyd kicked in again. You're drinking free at NINC, my friend. Make no doubt about it, this will be fully funded tomorrow evening.


Wayne is being a super generous with this, but I hope the rest of us can do our share. I'm kicking in some more money and hope everyone else digs a little deeper, too.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Quick question: I'm running into that Paypal compliance / donated too many times things myself. So my question is, if a new funding session is started does that reset the donation limit?
> 
> https://gogetfunding.com/it-takes-a-community-to-take-down-a-scammer/


That's a very good question and one I don't know the answer to. In the meantime, there is the option to send it directly via PayPal and I can add it manually to the funding page if you're comfortable with that. But I will get on the phone with PayPal and see what they say going forward. I chose this funding site for its PayPal integration which I thought would make things simpler, but perhaps I need to go another way.

Thank you, everyone. And thank you, Wayne.


----------



## Randall Wood

Chipped in again and then added it to my monthly to-do list. 

(Just in case RH is wondering about the groups long-term commitment.)


----------



## Kay Bratt

I tried unsuccessfully at least 5 times to donate via PayPal and continued to get an error message saying 'cannot process your donation'. 

Finally I donated via my credit card.  

Good luck, Christina.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Randall Wood said:


> Chipped in again and then added it to my monthly to-do list.
> 
> (Just in case RH is wondering about the groups long-term commitment.)


Thank you, Randall, Tammi, Rick, and Boyd et al. Your continued support is both touching and very helpful.



Kay Bratt said:


> I tried unsuccessfully at least 5 times to donate via PayPal and continued to get an error message saying 'cannot process your donation'.
> 
> Finally I donated via my credit card.
> 
> Good luck, Christina.


I'm sorry about that, Kay. A handful of others have had trouble with the site. Perhaps switching to Go Fund Me is a better solution given the warnings folks are now getting from PayPal.


----------



## 41419

Randall Wood said:


> Chipped in again and then added it to my monthly to-do list.
> 
> (Just in case RH is wondering about the groups long-term commitment.)


Ditto.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

dgaughran said:


> Ditto.


Thanks, David.

I am looking into alternate options with the fundraising because while I can extend this current fundraiser, people will keep getting the error message regarding the transaction limit. I'm looking at options, but it might be better to move to a different site. It wouldn't allow for PP integration which I felt would make things easier, but given how long this is likely to drag on, their limits could end up making it more trouble than it's worth.


----------



## lilywhite

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks, David.
> 
> I am looking into alternate options with the fundraising because while I can extend this current fundraiser, people will keep getting the error message regarding the transaction limit. I'm looking at options, but it might be better to move to a different site. It wouldn't allow for PP integration which I felt would make things easier, but given how long this is likely to drag on, their limits could end up making it more trouble than it's worth.


I say make the move. Does GoFundMe release the monies as they come in or hold them? Because you need a site that pretty much passes them straight through, I'd imagine.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> I say make the move. Does GoFundMe release the monies as they come in or hold them? Because you need a site that pretty much passes them straight through, I'd imagine.


I'm not sure, but that's a good point. The current site does do that--the deposits go straight to my PayPal as they come in and then I transfer the exact amount I need as it's due. Looks like I'll be doing some research. I need a good tax person, too, as I'm going to get hit with a very large bill come next year.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> I'm not sure, but that's a good point. The current site does do that--the deposits go straight to my PayPal as they come in and then I transfer the exact amount I need as it's due.


i

I have been passing around your gofundme site address but clicked on the address today and it's not active? Do you have another site address for deposits I can give out to authors who wish to help?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I have limited access to my computer the next few days but I wanted to make sure to let you all know that, true to his word, Wayne made up the difference to fully fund my funding page with a very generous donation. I am humbled and grateful to all who contributed, and to Wayne especially. 

I will be making a new page, but with the PayPal limitations, I'll be switching to a new site. I post a link as soon as I have one. 

Thank you all for your generosity.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

ChristinaGarner said:


> I have limited access to my computer the next few days but I wanted to make sure to let you all know that, true to his word, Wayne made up the difference to fully fund my funding page with a very generous donation. I am humbled and grateful to all who contributed, and to Wayne especially.
> 
> I will be making a new page, but with the PayPal limitations, I'll be switching to a new site. I post a link as soon as I have one.
> 
> Thank you all for your generosity.


Congratulations and Wayne is the man!


----------



## JRTomlin

I do not consent to the altered TOS of 2018.


----------



## Sapphire

Wayne, you are on my list of people I'd like to meet someday!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Congratulations and Wayne is the man!


Thank you and YES, he is


----------



## unkownwriter

I know I'm not the only one who wants to give Wayne a big ol' smoochie -- on the cheek, of course, no worries Mrs. Wayne -- am I?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

she-la-ti-da said:


> I know I'm not the only one who wants to give Wayne a big ol' smoochie -- on the cheek, of course, no worries Mrs. Wayne -- am I?


I would also like to thank Wayne


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Thanks, y'all. I met Christina yesterday and she asked why. I've given that question a lot of thought and tried to explain it to her. As a kid, I was kinda small and bookish (is that word still used?) and I was pushed around a lot. We had a playground bully where I grew up. This was like '64 or '65. This kid was bigger than most. One day I saw him sitting on another kid slapping him, and something clicked in me. Long story short, the bully went home crying. Don't get me wrong, I got bloodied, but I rode my bike home with my head up. That kid was the reason I became a Marine.

When a stronger person pushes others around, and in this case, I'm talking financially stronger, because having met Christina, I now know her to be a powerfully ethical person. I can't ignore it. Nor should any person with a good moral compass. What I did was easy. Christina's the one getting bloodied. She's the one going toe to toe with the playground bully, _and _she's doing it for all the kids on the playground. But, I can now guarantee you one thing, having met her in person. That young lady will ride her bike home with her head held high.

This ain't over, y'all. There will be further funding needed. What I've contributed so far is about 10% of last month's income. Many of you have done that and more. I ask you to continue doing so. This isn't charitable giving, this is investing in the clean up of *OUR *community and is easily worth the investment.


----------



## Sapphire

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Thanks, y'all. I met Christina yesterday and she asked why. I've given that question a lot of thought and tried to explain it to her. As a kid, I was kinda small and bookish (is that word still used?) and I was pushed around a lot. We had a playground bully where I grew up. This was like '64 or '65. This kid was bigger than most. One day I saw him sitting on another kid slapping him, and something clicked in me. Long story short, the bully went home crying. Don't get me wrong, I got bloodied, but I rode my bike home with my head up. That kid was the reason I became a Marine.
> 
> When a stronger person pushes others around, and in this case, I'm talking financially stronger, because having met Christina, I now know her to be a powerfully ethical person. I can't ignore it. Nor should any person with a good moral compass. What I did was easy. Christina's the one getting bloodied. She's the one going toe to toe with the playground bully, _and _she's doing it for all the kids on the playground. But, I can now guarantee you one thing, having met her in person. That young lady will ride her bike home with her head held high.
> 
> This ain't over, y'all. There will be further funding needed. What I've contributed so far is about 10% of last month's income. Many of you have done that and more. I ask you to continue doing so. This isn't charitable giving, this is investing in the clean up of *OUR *community and is easily worth the investment.


Eloquent explanation.


----------



## 75814

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Thanks, y'all. I met Christina yesterday and she asked why. I've given that question a lot of thought and tried to explain it to her. As a kid, I was kinda small and bookish (is that word still used?) and I was pushed around a lot. We had a playground bully where I grew up. This was like '64 or '65. This kid was bigger than most. One day I saw him sitting on another kid slapping him, and something clicked in me. Long story short, the bully went home crying. Don't get me wrong, I got bloodied, but I rode my bike home with my head up. That kid was the reason I became a Marine.
> 
> When a stronger person pushes others around, and in this case, I'm talking financially stronger, because having met Christina, I now know her to be a powerfully ethical person. I can't ignore it. Nor should any person with a good moral compass. What I did was easy. Christina's the one getting bloodied. She's the one going toe to toe with the playground bully, _and _she's doing it for all the kids on the playground. But, I can now guarantee you one thing, having met her in person. That young lady will ride her bike home with her head held high.
> 
> This ain't over, y'all. There will be further funding needed. What I've contributed so far is about 10% of last month's income. Many of you have done that and more. I ask you to continue doing so. This isn't charitable giving, this is investing in the clean up of *OUR *community and is easily worth the investment.


Wayne is Captain America.


----------



## unkownwriter

Aw, shucks, Wayne. Come on over here, time for another big smoochie! There. Now you got on on both cheeks. I'm going to get out of line so the next person can have at it.

And you're right. This is something that will affect all of us, in one way or another. If we don't stand up, if we don't stand together, there's no one else riding in on a cavalry charge.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> I will be making a new page, but with the PayPal limitations, I'll be switching to a new site. I post a link as soon as I have one.


How we doing on getting that new site address?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Susan Stec said:


> How we doing on getting that new site address?


Thanks for asking--I appreciate the support.

I've been traveling for work and am now getting discovery together, so unfortunately I've fallen behind on everything else. I'll post here when I have an update on the case or a new funding page, which will be soon. (As a reminder, the hearing for the motion to strike is 10/27.)

Thank you, everyone.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Rest up, Christina. Take a seat in the corner and get ready for the next round. Everyone here, myself included, support you 100% and will be behind you to the end.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

I know things are busy, Christina, so no pressure on getting that new address up (although I'm definitely keeping my eyes open for it) .  But know that in the meantime we're all still here standing behind you.  Stay strong, take care of yourself, and keep fighting the good fight or ... in more layman's terms, kick butt and take names!


----------



## MyraScott

It's been a rough year and it's hard knowing the road ahead is still long, but you've got us on your side!!  You are fighting a battle on behalf of many who have been harmed and we appreciate all you are going through.  You are not alone.


----------



## Silly Writer

I know I've said this before, but I was one of the Survivors of this Bully. I didn't stand up for myself. Still haven't. I'm a coward. You standing up for yourself and the rest of us lifted a huge burden from my shoulders and allowed me to hold my head up high again. Thank you for that from me and many, many others. When the new site goes up, I'll be contributing again. Please keep fighting for you...and us...and the many newbs who are STILL getting taken in by this badly behaving author's smooth-talking.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Silly Writer said:


> I know I've said this before, but I was one of the Survivors of this Bully. I didn't stand up for myself. Still haven't. I'm a coward.


Never think that about yourself. Bottom line is most of us are here to write stories, not deal with any of this drama. So when it rears its head and we're caught in the middle, its easy to be blindsided. You don't have to stand up if you're not comfortable. Just know you're not alone.


----------



## sela

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Thanks, Christina, and all those who have helped fund the lawsuit, for doing something.

I donated to help fund the lawsuit because we can't stand by and be silent when we know someone is breaking the rules, lying, defaming and defrauding fellow authors.


----------



## 75814

Silly Writer said:


> I know I've said this before, but I was one of the Survivors of this Bully. I didn't stand up for myself. Still haven't. I'm a coward. You standing up for yourself and the rest of us lifted a huge burden from my shoulders and allowed me to hold my head up high again. Thank you for that from me and many, many others. When the new site goes up, I'll be contributing again. Please keep fighting for you...and us...and the many newbs who are STILL getting taken in by this badly behaving author's smooth-talking.


You're just human. Most people will avoid conflict whenever possible, even if it's to their detriment. If I were in your shoes, I'm not sure I would have done things any different from you.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Reminder: posts that go into the mindset of the defendant or address specific charges/wrongdoing will be, and have been removed.

This thread is only about the current standing of the lawsuit and any speculation is out of bounds.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone. I know you all have been waiting, and I'm finally able to give a status update.

To recap where we are:

Rebecca Hamilton's attorney filed a motion to strike. You can find that here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_vpf8yhHcP0SHZNQjRnUERNVUk/view

My attorney decided the best course of action was not to file an opposition to the motion, but to file a first amended complaint removing one of the issues they raised--that of attorneys' fees (which is based solely on statutes). This means I will be not be awarded any reimbursement of legal fees even if I win the suit.

As it happened, the judge issued a tentative ruling before the amendment was filed. You can find that here: https://www.docdroid.net/YhF4x5s/c12-garner-bc664530.pdf

What's amazing about the tentative ruling is that again, it shows the thoroughness of the judge. It's only 3 pages, but the tl;dr is that he was going to grant their motion to strike attorneys' fees, (which, again, is based solely on statutes) as well as a motion to strike punitive damages on count 4. However, he planned to deny their motion with regards to punitive damages on causes of action 5 and 6.

Quoting him:

"The 5th and 6th COAs are defamation claims. P has alleged that Ds made statements regarding her and her work which Ds knew to be false. (Complaint ¶¶ 70, 82). Accepting these allegations as true, it is hard to construe Ds' conduct as anything other than intentional, falling under the first definition of malice. Even if the court found reason to accept Ds' argument and concluded that the comments were not directly intended to hurt P, the publication of known falsehoods about a person for one's own gain is certainly despicable and in conscious disregard for P's rights. This is particularly true when P is an author and the charge is plagiarism. (Complaint ¶ 76(d)). Therefore, Ds' motion is DENIED as to the punitive damages allegations connected to the 5th & 6th COAs."

Because we filed a first amended complaint, the motion to strike is no longer valid and therefore will not receive a final ruling, and the case management conference was taken off the calendar for today. Instead, a set of dates for were sent by the court. I have not seen them yet, but it's my understanding that the trial will be about a year from now.

To my knowledge, they have 30 days from when the amended complaint was filed to respond to the suit. In the meantime, we're working discovery.

There's a long road ahead, and I want to thank you for all of the support you all have shown me. It makes all the difference. Some of you have asked when a new funding page will be set up, and I wanted to let you know it will be ready in the next day or two.

Thanks again for everything, and I'll try to answer any questions you have.


----------



## inconsequential

Thanks for the update, Christina. You're in my thoughts and prayers until the end of this and beyond.

I can't spare much but I will donate what I can when the new funding page is up.


----------



## lilywhite

Bummer about the attorney's fees, but punitive damages could be pretty high, depending on her income. 

Let us know when you have a new fundraising link.


----------



## Monique

Despicable! Them's fightin' words. Wow. :O Strong statement from judge.

As always, humbled by your strength and courage.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

I like his choice of words, too, Monique. Keep it up, Christina! We're behind you all the way.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Hope you get the same judge!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thanks for the kind words and well wishes, everyone.

Jan, barring unforeseen circumstances, this will be our judge for the duration which I am very pleased about. He's proven he's willing to read each motion as well as the exhibits and make a reasoned determination, and that's the best one can hope for when going to court.

I also wanted to share my new funding page. You can find it here: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

I admit with the trial not scheduled for another year, it's likely I'll need to raise more than the amount I'm currently asking, but this amount should get us through discovery and any motions/hearings that arise in the next few months. I also wanted to mention that this site does not accept PayPal which I know is the preferred way for many to donate. If you'd like still contribute via PP, you're welcome to send it to me directly and I will manually update the amount on the page. Those can be sent via the Friends and Family method to: christina{at}christinagarner.com.

Please know that I don't ask for help lightly. I am deeply humbled by the amount of trust you all are placing in me, and I promise to do my best to live up to that trust.

Thanks to all of you for your continued support.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Donated. Glad to hear the motions went as well as they could and that your lawyer was on it. Sucks it's another year of your life and I know it's not been easy on you. I will continue to support each month as royalties come in.


----------



## lilywhite

Donated. Keep up the good fight.


----------



## TheLemontree

Donated. Good luck. We're with you.


----------



## Marseille France or Bust

Bankruptcies can be contested. Years ago, when a body shop let my car get stolen and they had no insurance, I had to sue them. The guy filed a BK and I showed up at the meeting of the creditors after going through the BK with a fine tooth comb. I found outright lies in it (claiming he was single, not married, claiming he did not own the business, etc). I brought those lies to the court's attention and the BK was thrown out; dismissed. I was then free to continue the case, which I did, and won. Unfortunately, they guy skipped to Mexico and never paid. (



loraininflorida said:


> When our legal system was created, if someone lived in one state sued you, a person who lived in another state, in _his_ home
> state, it was feared that that person would have a home-town advantage over you (the out-of-stater) in his state court. So, the rule was made that you, the out-of-stater defendant, could remove the case to federal court where it was presumed you would get a fairer shake (it's called "diversity"). (The colonies-turned-states didn't trust each other a whole lot.) Nowadays to keep out the piddly stuff however, federal courts require that the amount of $$ in controversy has to be at least $75,000.
> 
> Any prospective defendant (someone who knew a lawsuit was coming) who did not know that they would be the one to receive service of the Complaint, not their lawyer, is not someone I would believe is receiving legal advice.
> 
> Federal cases are expensive and long. The common way a defendant deals with being served with an expensive lawsuit is to just file a Notice of Bankruptcy which pretty much makes the whole thing go _phttt_. Or, they can just ignore the whole thing, let a default judgment be entered against them, which if they are "judgement proof" (i.e. broke or have hidden their assets), makes that judgment a "paper judgment" --not something that can be collected on.


----------



## Sarah Shaw

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks for the kind words and well wishes, everyone.
> 
> Jan, barring unforeseen circumstances, this will be our judge for the duration which I am very pleased about. He's proven he's willing to read each motion as well as the exhibits and make a reasoned determination, and that's the best one can hope for when going to court.
> 
> I also wanted to share my new funding page. You can find it here: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community
> 
> I admit with the trial not scheduled for another year, it's likely I'll need to raise more than the amount I'm currently asking, but this amount should get us through discovery and any motions/hearings that arise in the next few months. I also wanted to mention that this site does not accept PayPal which I know is the preferred way for many to donate. If you'd like still contribute via PP, you're welcome to send it to me directly and I will manually update the amount on the page. Those can be sent via the Friends and Family method to: christina{at}christinagarner.com.
> 
> Please know that I don't ask for help lightly. I am deeply humbled by the amount of trust you all are placing in me, and I promise to do my best to live up to that trust.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for your continued support.


Ah- I missed this yesterday! Thanks for the update, Christina!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Sarah Shaw said:


> Ah- I missed this yesterday! Thanks for the update, Christina!


Sarah, just in case you or anyone else didn't see the newest post regarding the case, I'm linking here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252500.msg3584116.html#msg3584116

I made two updates within a day so I didn't want the above to get lost in the shuffle.

I also wanted to thank those of you who have donated to this new round of funding. If I replied individually it would clog the thread, but please know I appreciate each of you very much.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Kicked a bit more in. This is such a slow process.


----------



## Used To Be BH

Donated!

I can't think of a more worthy cause in the publishing world.


----------



## tommy gun

You are an amazing person Christina and I have to say Wayne is in the same league.

Please get the new fund site up, I'm up North but would do something as meager as it is.

My only suggestion is to keep reading this post and the support here as well as your friends.  The process can wear you down over time even though you are in the right.

Stay Positive!


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

tommy gun said:


> You are an amazing person Christina and I have to say Wayne is in the same league.
> 
> Please get the new fund site up, I'm up North but would do something as meager as it is.
> 
> My only suggestion is to keep reading this post and the support here as well as your friends. The process can wear you down over time even though you are in the right.
> 
> Stay Positive!


It's up, Tommy.

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

We're 1/4 of the way there!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I've been traveling for work and away from my computer, so my apologies for these late thanks. Bill, Wayne, your generosity is overwhelming. As is the continued support from the community. I could not do this without you. Please know how much I appreciate each donation and word of support.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Ten days, any update, Christina?

Y'all, I'm disappointed. No donations in ten days? And only 25% funded after sixteen days? I know money can be tight, been there, got the tee-shirt. Surely, the price of a pizza once a week won't hurt. The alternative is to let scammers continue taking money out of your pocket. Either way, it's your money. Do you want it to go to something good and right, or to line the pockets of a cheat?


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated again.

Nick


----------



## DIAMONDSINTHESKY

Wishing you continued support Christina and I'll share your gofundmepage on my social media.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the continued support. 

Unfortunately, I can't say very much right now. I can tell you we are in the discovery process. Their requests of me total approximately 70 pages.

This month we will get either another motion or an answer for the suit. It's my understanding she plans to file a countersuit, and if that's the case, I believe it will come with the answer.


----------



## 91831

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the continued support.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't say very much right now. I can tell you we are in the discovery process. Their requests of me total approximately 70 pages.
> 
> This month we will get either another motion or an answer for the suit. It's my understanding she plans to file a countersuit, and if that's the case, I believe it will come with the answer.


I'm really sorry - but I don't really understand what any of this means! Can someone break it down into baby speak for me please?


----------



## 39416

In a lawsuit, both sides get to demand the other side turn over information (documents and answers to specific written questions) to them. This is called "Discovery".  If someone wants to be a #[email protected]!! about it, they can send a boatload of discovery demands to the other side because they know that will drive the attorney costs up because it takes time for the attorney to put together a response. All of the judges I know would almost certainly consider 70 pages of discovery demands to be abusive of this process and would order the party to cut it down to size or just disallow a lot of the demands. But again, this takes time and attorney cost.

When you sue somebody, they have to file an "Answer" to your lawsuit. That's what gets the court case really rolling. However, there are a lot of things a Defendant can do to putz around to delay having to file their "Answer". 

A countersuit is when you sue somebody, and they sue you back.


----------



## [email protected]

Hang in there, Christina. <3 I know these things can really drain a person. Just remember, you're doing the right thing and standing for a lot of people who couldn't do it themselves.

Just wanted to bring the donation link to the forefront, so those who want easy access to it don't have to hunt it down: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community.

Please correct me if this isn't the most current link.


----------



## 41419

Happy to contribute again. Willing to bet I'm more stubborn than RH.


----------



## Lydniz

dgaughran said:


> Happy to contribute again. Willing to bet I'm more stubborn than RH.


You might not have her seemingly endless sources of funding however.


----------



## 41419

Lydniz said:


> You might not have her seemingly endless sources of funding however.


RH has a rapidly dwindling circle of allies. Christina has the whole community behind her.

I know who my money is on.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

dgaughran said:


> RH has a rapidly dwindling circle of allies. Christina has the whole community behind her.
> 
> I know who my money is on.


Same here.


----------



## Romancer

Donated. Wish it could be more.


----------



## 91831

loraininflorida said:


> In a lawsuit, both sides get to demand the other side turn over information (documents and answers to specific written questions) to them. This is called "Discovery". If someone wants to be a #[email protected]!! about it, they can send a boatload of discovery demands to the other side because they know that will drive the attorney costs up because it takes time for the attorney to put together a response. All of the judges I know would almost certainly consider 70 pages of discovery demands to be abusive of this process and would order the party to cut it down to size or just disallow a lot of the demands. But again, this takes time and attorney cost.
> 
> When you sue somebody, they have to file an "Answer" to your lawsuit. That's what gets the court case really rolling. However, there are a lot of things a Defendant can do to putz around to delay having to file their "Answer".
> 
> A countersuit is when you sue somebody, and they sue you back.


Ah, thank you so much. It does baffle me that someone can 'counter sue' while the first suing is taking place!

It all sounds far more complicated than it needs to be!


----------



## Monique

Donated.

I know how incredibly difficult this is, but we are behind you.


----------



## Awasin

evdarcy said:


> Ah, thank you so much. It does baffle me that someone can 'counter sue' while the first suing is taking place!
> 
> It all sounds far more complicated than it needs to be!


The complexity is largely driven by a desire to make the system work better, believe it or not. A countersuit, for example, ought to be tried at the time of "the first suing" because the evidence material to both actions may be the same; why hear two separate actions when you can hear one, and a fortiori for the remedy.

But that said, it drives lawyers mad. Imagine a gardener: Forty years ago we had a spring like this, with no rain, and this is what we did...

Now imagine a lawyer. Every procedural rule he knows has been turned on its head at least once. So apart from general advice like, "hit him where it hurts," the older lawyer is more dangerous than helpful when it comes down to actually doing stuff.

So don't feel bad if you don't understand the law. You needn't understand it any more than you need to master swamps and crocodiles.

Just steer clear, to the extent you can. Take a wide berth.


----------



## thesmallprint

Donated. Keep fighting the good fight.

Folks, just a reminder that if you can spare even a dollar to support Christina, you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community. Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## unkownwriter

Thanks for Christina's direct Paypal, thesmallprint. I will be able to donate at the end of the month, but it has to be Paypal because I don't have a credit card. (Yeah, I'm weird that way.)


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Donated. The next month or so is going to be tight with the holidays rapidly approaching. That said, one of the best gifts we can give to this industry as a whole is a clear message that we won't hesitate to stand together against what we feel is wrong.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thank you, everyone, for the kind words as well as the donations. It means the world to me to have respected members of the community backing me. 

I share all of your frustrations with how long the process takes, but please know we are moving forward. I'm generally not able to share information until it has become part of the official record, but please know we are working hard to bring home a victory.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thank you, everyone, for the kind words as well as the donations. It means the world to me to have respected members of the community backing me.
> 
> I share all of your frustrations with how long the process takes, but please know we are moving forward. I'm generally not able to share information until it has become part of the official record, but please know we are working hard to bring home a victory.


Big KBoards party when it's all over


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Big KBoards party when it's all over


This is a prime example of why we need a "Like" button.


----------



## thesmallprint

Long way across the Atlantic but count me in for the party.

Folks, just a reminder that if you can spare even a dollar to support Christina, you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community. Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## 41419

I think what Christina is doing is really important. Fighting this case, and all of us supporting it, shows that we won't just roll over, that there are lines people can't cross, that we won't be pushed around anymore. 

All of the shenanigans that led up to this this point have really brought something home to me : we are on our own. Amazon won't help us. There is no org out there that really fights for indies. 

But together we are powerful.


----------



## Sapphire

dgaughran said:


> I think what Christina is doing is really important. Fighting this case, and all of us supporting it, shows that we won't just roll over, that there are lines people can't cross, that we won't be pushed around anymore.
> 
> All of the shenanigans that led up to this this point have really brought something home to me : we are on our own. Amazon won't help us. There is no org out there that really fights for indies.
> 
> But together we are powerful.


^THIS^


----------



## David VanDyke

Donated, direct. You will see it come from my LLC, Reaper Press.

Perhaps Christina can't solicit direct payments using this language due to GoFundMe's TOS (I'm guessing, not sure, but it seems logical) but I further suspect that direct payments won't get the GoFundMe cut subtracted? On the other hand, they won't add to the formal total on the campaign?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

David VanDyke said:


> Donated, direct. You will see it come from my LLC, Reaper Press.
> 
> Perhaps Christina can't solicit direct payments using this language due to GoFundMe's TOS (I'm guessing, not sure, but it seems logical) but I further suspect that direct payments won't get the GoFundMe cut subtracted? On the other hand, they won't add to the formal total on the campaign?


Hi David. Thank you so much for your donation. You're right that sending it direct via PayPal means I don't incur fees from the funding site which is great, and I am able to manually add the amount and the donor. If folks aren't specifying, I'm only using initials to protect privacy.

You should see your name and donation, along with other offline donations here: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

And thank you, David Gaughran. I'm humbled by and appreciative of your words and continued support. This is an amazing community and I thank you all.


----------



## thesmallprint

Even on weekends, let's keep the flame burning in the dark for it could be a long way home. If anyone can help light the way with a dollar or two you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community.

Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## thesmallprint

Monday at 12.30 here in the UK. Just looking in to start the week with a message of support for Christina.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

My pre-orders for the new release gave me a nice little bump, so it was time for another donation.

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## thesmallprint

My usual daily check-in to Kboards, mostly to see how the fund is going and appeal to fellow authors . . . if you can spare even a dollar to support Christina, you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community.

Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Bumping this to take care of time zones  .


----------



## thesmallprint

It's late here in Scotland (and cold). Just looking before bed to see how the funding is going. If you're new to this, you'll find the funding details two posts up.

Good night.


----------



## thesmallprint

Doesn't seem long since Friday. Going into another week, please keep in mind that if you can spare even a dollar to support Christina, you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community.

Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hi everyone. I hope all of you who celebrate Thanksgiving had a nice one. I wanted to thank you all for your donations and for keeping the thread bumped--that's very kind of you. I also wanted to share some dates with you:

Future Hearings: 

06/18/2018 at 08:31 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Conference-Post Mediation Status(2. FURTHER S/C PER CRC 3.723)

09/20/2018 at 08:31 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Final Status Conference

10/03/2018 at 09:30 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Court Trial - Short Cause

I'll have more news in the next day or two.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for the update. Looks like it's going to be a long wait.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

I was served last night!  

Game on!  

Others named in the counter-suit (or whatever it's called), perhaps we should start an off-forum email or private FB group. I think it would be advantageous for all of us to use the same attorney that Christina has, if they are up to it.

What would you call a counter-counter-suit?   

Seriously, though, just being named in a lawsuit is an impeachment of my reputation, something I've taken great strides to keep clean. I write and publish my work in the same manner as traditional publishing. No shortcuts. Let the work speak for itself. No games, scams, cheats, or even getting close to that line of unethical behavior, which some dance across with glee. I distance myself from these slimy bottom dwellers, because that stuff does rub off and the fall-out is toxic.

Does that mean I can't get in the mud and go toe-to-toe with against this ilk? LMAO! Don't let my laid-back attitude give anyone the idea that I'm weak or a pacifist. I was born on Parris Island, as part of the Teufel Hunden clan. That's a nick-name given to my people by German soldiers in WWI. It means Devil Dog, or more commonly, a United States Marine. And this Devil Dog still has all his teeth.

Cry havoc! And loose the Dogs of War!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Wayne, I'm glad you posted. Because they are allowed to mail the suit to my attorney and don't need to serve the papers in person, I have not yet received a copy. However, I had it on good authority (Rebecca's own words) that a "massive" countersuit was coming. I'm very sorry for anyone else she has targeted in this.

As an FYI: both KBoards and Victoria Strauss have been subpoenaed. I don't have copies of those papers, but I am told they are requesting names and IP addresses from several KBoards posters and from Victoria they are requesting any correspondence she may have had with me. Given people have a right to privacy I certainly hope they chose not to comply, but we'll know soon. 

Anyone who was named is welcome to reach out to me and I'm happy to speak with my attorney on anyone's behalf. Once I have a copy of the suit I'll post a link, but what I've heard so far leads me to believe there are multiple inaccuracies.


----------



## Lydniz

I'm sorry for anyone who's been caught up in this. It's pretty ridiculous that she's let it get this far.


----------



## C. Gockel

I am confused. What are the claims of the countersuit?


----------



## David VanDyke

I'd be interested to see who is named in the countersuit, if that's appropriate. 

I have to wonder what happens if someone's pen name is named but the papers never reach the actual author? Does that means they were never legally served?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

David VanDyke said:


> I'd be interested to see who is named in the countersuit, if that's appropriate.
> 
> I have to wonder what happens if someone's pen name is named but the papers never reach the actual author? Does that means they were never legally served?


Because I have not yet received copies I don't want to say anything I don't know to be true. If anyone who as been served would like to upload their papers, please do. Otherwise I should have mine today or tomorrow and will post a link as soon as I can.

The figure I've heard is $300,000 in lost earnings, but again, can't confirm until I have seen it for myself.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Someone will be able to write a book about this - but written as fiction it would probably be turned down by a trad publisher as being too fanciful  .


----------



## Krista D. Ball

This is some serious [redacted] on RH's side.

Is she going to sue us all now?


----------



## AliceS

Wow.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I haven't had a chance to review, but here are the documents I've just received:

Answer to my suit:

https://www.docdroid.net/VBDbPH8/answer-to-unverified-fac-112817.pdf

Cross complaint:

https://www.docdroid.net/lH3nS1Q/cross-complaint-112817.pdf#page=2


----------



## lilywhite

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Cry havoc! And loose the Dogs of War!


DONE!

(By which I mean I donated.)

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> DONE!
> 
> (By which I mean I donated.)
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


Thank you <3


----------



## Krista D. Ball

I just donated $100 USD to Christina's fund.


----------



## Lydniz

Please tell me "unclean hands" is a legal term and not a comment on Christina's personal hygiene.


----------



## lilywhite

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thank you <3


Always. Sorry for the big gap between donations; I switched jobs!


----------



## Jim Johnson

Lydniz said:


> Please tell me "unclean hands" is a legal term and not a comment on Christina's personal hygiene.


It's a legal term.


----------



## Lydniz

Jim Johnson said:


> It's a legal term.


Thanks - yes, I just looked it up. I'd never heard it before.


----------



## dianapersaud

ChristinaGarner said:


> I haven't had a chance to review, but here are the documents I've just received:
> 
> Answer to my suit:
> 
> https://www.docdroid.net/VBDbPH8/answer-to-unverified-fac-112817.pdf
> 
> Cross complaint:
> 
> https://www.docdroid.net/lH3nS1Q/cross-complaint-112817.pdf#page=2


You're being accused of orchestrating a conspiracy? OMG. Now I've seen it all....

What is her lawyer thinking? Seems that proving a conspiracy would be difficult.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

dianapersaud said:


> You're being accused of orchestrating a conspiracy? OMG. Now I've seen it all....
> 
> What is her lawyer thinking? Seems that proving a conspiracy would be difficult.


Very difficult because there is zero basis in fact.


----------



## Lydniz

SummerNights said:


> I'm confused. Wasn't it only recently that RH claimed she made very little money off her services?


I believe she claimed she provided the services as a no-profit favour to pay it back to the indie community.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

SummerNights said:


> I'm confused. Wasn't it only recently that RH claimed she made very little money off her services?


That was my thought.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Just wanted to offer up my support for those added to this debacle, as well as say that it is my sincerest hope that no voices feel they need to be silenced or scared off here. 

There is nothing wrong with contributing to a legal defense fund and we should not give in to intimidation (whether real or perceived) when it comes to our continuing support.


----------



## Guest

Lydniz said:


> I believe she claimed she provided the services as a no-profit favour to pay it back to the indie community.


So where does that number come from? Doesn't it contradict all she has been saying to defend herself?


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated.

Nick


----------



## ChristinaGarner

SummerNights said:


> So where does that number come from? Doesn't it contradict all she has been saying to defend herself?


Based on what she's said, she's planning to claim lost earnings from her dissolved partnership with Jasmine Walt. At the time, Jasmine wanted to keep the Shadows of Salem series. Now that Rebecca will be keeping it, I'm not sure she's still planning to use that argument. Regardless, that assertion is problematic for many reasons.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I am named. I have not been served yet. I'm sure it is coming, I won't be giving that poor server any grief for doing their job.

Hardest part was telling hubby about what was going on, though I think explaining it's me and 20+ others named helped my arguments about what this is. The things I am quoted for in the complaint or documentation or whatever it is stem from posts made here. 

Life happens. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. I can't help the emotional response my body feels to all of this, but I'm going to keep my head held high and compose myself as the professional woman that I am.

If anyone here has a legal background and non-legal just friendly advice on what hypothetically could be the next steps for people named as a group in a countersuit, it would be very educational to read.

Hugs to everyone affected by this.


----------



## Kwrite

This is nuts. I don’t really view the citied comments as defamation. More like a massive Yelp review.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Kwrite said:


> This is nuts. I don't really view the citied comments as defamation. More like a massive Yelp review.


People have been sued over those too. Just remember, you can be sued for just about anything. Whether it stands up is for the court to decide.


----------



## C. Gockel

This isn't about the original suit to me anymore. To me it feels more like whether a small time author can receive support from a community when dealing with an entity they feel has behaved in a way that is unethical. If ordinary people with less means aren't able to receive community support without facing retribution, we are all lost.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Just wanted to offer up my support for those added to this debacle, as well as say that it is my sincerest hope that no voices feel they need to be silenced or scared off here.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with contributing to a legal defense fund and we should not give in to intimidation (whether real or perceived) when it comes to our continuing support.


Agreed Rick. I'm going to give my money to whoever I damn well want to.


----------



## ilamont

It's a terrible weight to be named in a lawsuit, especially for those who have never endured something like this before and/or don't have the resources to hire an attorney.

But it's not a life-or-death case, and it _will_ be resolved. If there is a pool defense for those named in the suit, I (and I know many other Kboarders) would like to donate to it to help defray the costs - please share the link to the fund when and if it becomes available.

I also have one piece of advice for anyone named in the suit: Don't panic, or take action without talking with a lawyer (initial consultations are usually free). For instance, there may be a temptation to delete posts or emails or messages, but there are potentially serious consequences if relevant evidence is destroyed.

Bottom line: The case will be resolved. And the people being sued have a lot of support in their corner.


----------



## cdk

Again, not my area of expertise, and I haven't read the entire cross-complaint and I don't know everyone's personal circumstances, but I'd be surprised if personal jurisdiction can be established for anyone out of state named as a cross-defendant if personal jurisdiction in California is based on paragraph 12 in the cross-complaint. _ViaView, Inc. v. Retzlaff_ (2016) 1 Cal.App.5th 198, is worth a read for anyone interested. Also _Burdick v. Superior Court_ (2015) 233 Cal.App.4th 8.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Is she going to countersue all of us for saying we had poor business experiences with her? This is ridiculous. She brought all of this on herself with the way she conducted herself personally and professionally.

When a crowdfunding pool goes up to help everyone being countersued, please let me know.

Hugs to everyone involved. Hang in there.


----------



## MonkeyScribe

From my point of view it seems more like a way of trying to suffocate the financial support of the OP by targeting generous donors. I can't imagine it will go over well with a judge, nor do I understand why the defendant's lawyers would go forward with that kind of scheme.


----------



## Monique

MonkeyScribe said:


> From my point of view it seems more like a way of trying to suffocate the financial support of the OP by targeting generous donors. I can't imagine it will go over well with a judge, nor do I understand why the defendant's lawyers would go forward with that kind of scheme.


I agree, and to make people afraid to support Christina and others for fear of what RH might do. That's a tactic that sounds familiar to many of us.

Don't be intimidated. We are strong together.


----------



## CassieL

I find it interesting that the countersuit doesn't identify in any way (such as by quoting from posts or citing to other social media) the 19 unnnamed defendants in the suit. (Unless I missed it?) Very convenient that it leaves open those slots for whoever they want to later put into them.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Monique said:


> I agree, and to make people afraid to support Christina and others for fear of what RH might do. That's a tactic that sounds familiar to many of us.
> 
> Don't be intimidated. We are strong together.


It's why I donated under my name this time around. She did this specifically to scare people away from donating to Christina.


----------



## C. Gockel

elizabethbarone said:


> When a crowdfunding pool goes up to help everyone being countersued, please let me know.
> 
> Hugs to everyone involved. Hang in there.


I would like to donate as well. Please let me know.


----------



## mostlybree

I'm a hardcore lurker but I'm delurking just to add my voice to how appalling this is to watch. I don't like bullies. A donation isn't a conspiracy. This is utterly ridiculous. 

I'm sorry to all of you who have gotten hauled into this. And thank you, Christina, for putting up with what I can only imagine must be a tremendous amount of stress. 

I imagine a lot of us are behind all of you.


----------



## Guest

ChristinaGarner said:


> Based on what she's said, she's planning to claim lost earnings from her dissolved partnership with Jasmine Walt. At the time, Jasmine wanted to keep the Shadows of Salem series. Now that Rebecca will be keeping it, I'm not sure she's still planning to use that argument. Regardless, that assertion is problematic for many reasons.


I didn't know any of this but how is that anyone's fault? The mind boggles...


----------



## geronl

I have no idea what this is about, I was gone a long time. Sounds very serious.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I am worried about setting up a pooled fund for a few reasons, mostly arising from the potential headaches of dispersal. And there are 20 unnamed people out there in the lawsuit.

I'm doing a closer reading and realizing some of the facts in this about me for example aren't even correct. I am not a resident of NY. 

If anyone here is a practicing California civil attorney with specialty in business law, please feel free to PM. I'm open to all suggestions via PM.


----------



## Mercedes Vox

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm doing a closer reading and realizing some of the facts in this about me for example aren't even correct. I am not a resident of NY.


Your profile on here says:

"Elizabeth Ann West
Status: Dostoevsky
Posts: 3241
Gender: Female
*Schenectady, NY*
Our doubts are traitors..."

Not saying that's accurate, but that might be their source.


----------



## MyraScott

I think California has some strong penalties for malicious litigation.    Each of these people can now countersue her on the countersuit... unless her lawyer is working for free, she really must have a lot more spending money than she lets on.    I don't understand crowdfunding for children's health care costs... when she makes so much that she can claim she lost $300K? 

The financials will be interesting to see, because now she's made a claim about her earnings, she'll have to provide the evidence to back them up.


----------



## geronl

I remember the RH thing vaguely, I've been off KB a long time so I did not know it had progressed to actual litigation.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I live in Schenectady, I'm a resident of TX. But I've since clarified with people who have spent more time in a court room than I have, that might not matter. 

I'm going to wait now until I'm actually served and consult a lawyer.


----------



## Matt.Banks

So this could go on a year or more before being resolved?


----------



## RedFoxUF

Cassie Leigh said:


> I find it interesting that the countersuit doesn't identify in any way (such as by quoting from posts or citing to other social media) the 19 unnnamed defendants in the suit. (Unless I missed it?) Very convenient that it leaves open those slots for whoever they want to later put into them.


I am confused by this too.


----------



## 91831

I don't get how you can sue someone that you can't name, identify, or trace.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

RedFoxUF said:


> I am confused by this too.


I found this on ROE / DOEs. Might be helpful. 
http://www.nfsesq.com/resources/how-to-add-a-doe-defendant-to-a-complaint/


----------



## ChristinaGarner

evdarcy said:


> I don't get how you can sue someone that you can't name, identify, or trace.


Perhaps she hopes KBoards will comply with her subpoena and hand over people's names and IP addresses. Of course, I hope they don't. It won't hurt me as I've already been named, but it will certainly hurt others.


----------



## lilywhite

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> The things I am quoted for in the complaint or documentation or whatever it is stem from posts made here.


I read through the comments cited very carefully and I personally see nothing in your statements that is actionable. I also have a lawyer on tap and I'm going to ask him for his opinion, though of course since we're in a different state it'll be more a general impression than solid legal advice.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's unconscionable that she's doing this. I don't know how she sleeps at night.


----------



## CassieL

If there were specific people to name (even based on Kboards user name) they could've done that in the same way they did for the first ROE name that used a Twitter handle to identify them. This is just a "if I choose to name someone else" placeholder from what I can tell.


----------



## Guest

ChristinaGarner said:


> Perhaps she hopes KBoards will comply with her subpoena and hand over people's names and IP addresses. Of course, I hope they don't. It won't hurt me as I've already been named, but it will certainly hurt others.


How would Kboards know people's names? As far as I can tell, people can sign up using fake names if they want to.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Cassie Leigh said:


> If there were specific people to name (even based on Kboards user name) they could've done that in the same way they did for the first ROE name that used a Twitter handle to identify them. This is just a "if I choose to name someone else" placeholder from what I can tell.


I've had the same thought.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

SummerNights said:


> How would Kboards know people's names? As far as I can tell, people can sign up using fake names if they want to.


I'm not sure everyone has done that, and I was only speculating, but yes, if KBoards doesn't have the names they can't supply them.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

ChristinaGarner said:


> I'm not sure everyone has done that, and I was only speculating, but yes, if KBoards doesn't have the names they can't supply them.


My assumption is (and only speculating here), but to see if any of the IPs of anonymous one-off accounts can be matched with other named accounts.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Has anyone been able to pull up the cross-complainant filing in the California database?


----------



## 91831

Rick Gualtieri said:


> My assumption is (and only speculating here), but to see if any of the IPs of anonymous one-off accounts can be matched with other named accounts.


Welp, if anyone's international, good luck to her as that's a different kettle of fish!


----------



## 75814

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I'm doing a closer reading and realizing some of the facts in this about me for example aren't even correct. I am not a resident of NY.


And I'm not a resident of California, I'm a resident of Japan.


----------



## MonkeyScribe

Perry Constantine said:


> And I'm not a resident of California, I'm a resident of Japan.


Some top notch lawyering there.


----------



## cdk

> I don't get how you can sue someone that you can't name, identify, or trace.


All parties may not be known or identified at the time the complaint or cross-complaint are filed. That's why the complaint names defendants as "DOES 1-20, inclusive," and the cross-complaint names cross-defendants as "ROES 1-20, inclusive."
It's not unusual that months after the complaint or cross-complaint are filed that a party finds out during the discovery phase that other people or businesses may be involved. Including unnamed DOES and ROES allows the lawsuit to proceed without having to file a new lawsuit to cover anyone not covered by the original filing. For example, if 6 months into the case, Christina finds out the defendant wasn't acting alone but in concert with someone named Bob, instead of having to file a new complaint against Bob, Bob would be named as DOE 1 in the original complaint without having to start from the beginning.

For people who are outside of California, I'm pretty sure your attorney will tell you it's unlikely the cross-complaint in this case will survive a motion to quash.


----------



## 75814

MonkeyScribe said:


> Some top notch lawyering there.


Whoever wrote this document also doesn't seem to understand the standard that must be met for a statement to be deemed defamatory. As far as my statements go, all of them fall under the category of opinion. And the notion that I'm not allowed to donate to a fellow author's legal fund is ridiculous, as is the notion that my meager contributions of around $100 in total are some sort of massive investment.


----------



## MonkeyScribe

Perry Constantine said:


> And the notion that I'm not allowed to donate to a fellow author's legal fund is ridiculous, as is the notion that my meager contributions of around $100 in total are some sort of massive investment.


Maybe they forgot to convert from yen to dollars.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I am served.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

Her lawyer obviously saw a very gullible mark and is feasting like a glutton from all the fees she's paying on this one.


----------



## dianapersaud

crow.bar.beer said:


> Her lawyer obviously saw a very gullible mark and is feasting like a glutton from all the fees she's paying on this one.


Wouldn't that be unethical?


----------



## crow.bar.beer

dianapersaud said:


> Wouldn't that be unethical?


I'll ask them when I'm served.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Added to my task list for tomorrow. 

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Free-Legal-Information/Legal-Guides/Lawyer-Referral-Service


----------



## Colin

dianapersaud said:


> Wouldn't that be unethical?


Hmm ... lawyers and ethics ...

Hmm ...


----------



## IreneP




----------



## 41419

This is nuts. You all have my support. And I'll happily contribute to any fund or funds that arise, and help spread the word too.


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> Perhaps she hopes KBoards will comply with her subpoena and hand over people's names and IP addresses. Of course, I hope they don't. It won't hurt me as I've already been named, but it will certainly hurt others.


Neither a name nor an IP address is proof of identity, though. Unless crow.bar.beer's parents really put that on the birth certificate. I wouldn't judge... it's charming.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> Neither a name nor an IP address is proof of identity, though. Unless crow.bar.beer's parents really put that on the birth certificate. I wouldn't judge... it's charming.


The IP address can be traced to the ISP and then the ISP can be subpoenaed for an identity.


----------



## MyraScott

Perry Constantine said:


> The IP address can be traced to the ISP and then the ISP can be subpoenaed for an identity.


With a judge's order, which would mean for just cause. I don't think "hurt feelings" is going to unlock any privacy records, especially when the comments cited aren't defamatory... but crazier things have happened, I guess.

Sounds expensive, either way!


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> With cause. I don't think "hurt feelings" is going to unlock any privacy records, but crazier things have happened, I guess.


Oh yeah, absolutely with cause. I was just making a general statement about how an IP can be used to obtain an identity.


----------



## Colin

Perry Constantine said:


> The IP address can be traced to the ISP and then the ISP can be subpoenaed for an identity.


Yep. Both static and dynamic IP addresses are traceable to at the very least the MAC address of the user's computer.


----------



## Guest

Perry Constantine said:


> The IP address can be traced to the ISP and then the ISP can be subpoenaed for an identity.


It also presupposes that the ISP contract is in your name (mine isn't, I don't have my name on anything, not even utilities). This could potentially get amusing and might be a valuable lesson for my neighbours about password protecting their wifi...


----------



## 75814

Tilly said:


> It also presupposes that the ISP contract is in your name (mine isn't, I don't have my name on anything, not even utilities). This could potentially get amusing and might be a valuable lesson for my neighbours about password protecting their wifi...


That's true as well. And also presupposes people aren't browsing with a VPN.


----------



## Colin

Tilly said:


> It also presupposes that the ISP contract is in your name (mine isn't, I don't have my name on anything, not even utilities). This could potentially get amusing *and might be a valuable lesson for my neighbours about password protecting their wifi...*


Talking about protecting passwords, do you live next door to the Apple family, by any chance?

;--)


----------



## Colin

Perry Constantine said:


> That's true as well. And also presupposes people aren't browsing with a VPN.


Even VPNs don't guarantee total online anonymity.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

MyraScott said:


> Neither a name nor an IP address is proof of identity, though. Unless crow.bar.beer's parents really put that on the birth certificate. I wouldn't judge... it's charming.


They did, although that birth certificate may as well have been issued on the moon, as far as this frivolous mockery of the U.S. justice system is concerned.  And thanks!


----------



## Becca Mills

Folks, stepping in to remind everyone that this threads needs to remain dedicated to lawsuit updates. I know the countersuit is a terrible shock to those named therein, but this isn't the place to react and discuss in depth.


----------



## Kwrite

I’m reading over what the attorney has listed as “defamation” and shaking my head. Just don't see a case. But then, I didn’t go to law school. Still, I hope it gets tossed.


----------



## thesmallprint

This is one for the press, surely? I'd really like to see some wide public exposure of this whole case.

Meanwhile, folks, back at the ranch, remember that if you can spare even a dollar to support Christina, you can donate at https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community. Unfortunately, they don't take paypal but payments can be sent via paypal using 'friends & family' direct to Christina and she will update the gofundme page manually. The address for Paypal direct payments is:

christina{at}christinagarner.com

Thanks


----------



## Becca Mills

We're serious about not wanting to end up with "Box Set Scams Redux," here, so I'm going to lock this thread over the evening and night in North America and western Europe, when none of the moderation staff are able to be online.

_EDIT: Folks, we are going to unlock the thread this morning, please give us some time to finish our discussion in the smoke filled caves. --Betsy/KB Admin_


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

If this needs to be merged with the other thread, I understand. Not trying to break any rules here, just exhausted already at all of the little details adding up to a mountain of work which means I'm not writing. 

The simple story is I am being sued as a cross complaint in a lawsuit that's already been much discussed here. I was served last night the same complaint linked here: https://www.docdroid.net/lH3nS1Q/cross-complaint-112817.pdf

Initially, I was just like "I'll just pay for all of this myself, I shouldn't ask for help" but some good friends pointed out that this is a very real lawsuit, it's asking for over $300,000 in damages + punitive damages and I have no idea what my obligation and responsibilities will be. I know that posts I make here at Kboards are always done with the intent of helping others, adding meaningfully to a discussion, or sharing experiences I've had. I don't even want me being sued for the things that I am to be a deterrent to others who might try to help another. There was discussion about doing a shared fundraiser and sharing lawyers and after reading the complaint and how there are different complaints and facts for each named, I have determined it's a good idea for those named to work together as much as possible, but I wouldn't want the interests of one party to negatively impact another because this is a very complicated legal case. I want ALL of us to be protected and hopefully resolve this.

I purposely didn't put a ton of details or make a hard pitch for donations. I know many are in need with this mess and it's not my intention to profit off this. In fact, it's very likely my own business will be harmed just in the time I'm losing to deal with it. But that's life.

Any donations given I am very grateful for and I will keep people updated there and I've added if you'd like, I'd love to send a thank you card to those who help my family.

https://gogetfunding.com/fighting-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-posts/

Please don't discuss the particulars of the case here. I don't want extra work for the mods. And I truly loathe that I have to even make this post.  And truly any and all support, even words of encouragement are helping me a great deal. Thanks to the wonder of technology I didn't even have to face getting served last night alone. Don't let anyone tell you differently, our community is AWESOME.


----------



## dianapersaud

Do they take Paypal? If not, please send me your PP email address so I can send you a contribution.


----------



## Huldra

.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Yes they take PayPal and stripe 

My PayPal address is writer at Elizabeth Ann West.com no spaces


----------



## Huldra

.


----------



## C. Gockel

If people are no longer allowed to discuss the efficacy of businesses without fear of lawsuits it is a very dark day indeed.

Donated.


----------



## sali19

Donated what little I could. Here's to hoping the justice system works.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Thank you all. I can honestly say I haven't felt alone in any of this. I am thankful for that. 

And I need to go to the grocery store as I have realized this house is woefully out of chocolate. My daughter climbed on my lap while I was responding to someone else and read the message of support and said I have the best friends. And she's right. I do. We all do. 

I want a superlative form of Thank You. THANKEST THE MOSTEST!


----------



## Lydniz

I'm sorry you're facing this, Elizabeth. She knows she can't win but she's obviously trying to take as many people down with her as she can.


----------



## Susanne123

Donated. You've got a lot of people holding their heads high in your corner, Elizabeth. Your contributions to the writing community have always been appreciated. Enjoy your chocolate.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I think she threw down the gauntlet by naming the KBoarders in a lawsuit. Going to be more people getting involved now. We are all with you  .


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated.

Nick


----------



## RedAlert

Read the XC.  There are weaknesses, and you have a defense and possible cross cross complaint.  "DLTBGYD."  One day, this will be a dim memory, and you'll still be okay.  YOU WILL BE OKAY.

I remember a thread on Kboards where others were kicking the s. out of you.  You did not weaken.  I remember being impressed with your strength in the face of unfair criticism.  Whenever I see your name, that's what I think.  One tough cookie.  Stay classy and cool, and make sure you write down the details for your book.


----------



## Guest

What...the...unholy...


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Donated. I'm very sorry. Stinks.


----------



## Scarlettletters

Donated.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Sorry for the delay folks, clearing the smoke took longer than I expected.

After discussion among the moderating staff, we are reopening this thread to allow continued updates on the status of the subject lawsuit. We believe updates are a service to the membership as it is public information with implications for the larger Indie community.

*However, we believe it is neither appropriate nor wise for any member involved in a lawsuit to discuss strategy or other specific details of that lawsuit on our very public forum. This is not the place for such discussions. *

We are reviewing the thread and posts that are beyond the scope of the thread, as well as posts that are outside Forum Decorum, have been and will continue to be removed.

Thank you,

KBoards Mod Staff


----------



## MonkeyScribe

RedAlert said:


> I remember a thread on Kboards where others were kicking the s. out of you. You did not weaken. I remember being impressed with your strength in the face of unfair criticism.


I don't know about kicking, but I'm someone who has disagreed with Elizabeth in the past about strategies and tactics for selling books, sometimes vigorously. But I have never doubted her integrity, and think this attempt to silence dissent is egregious. I've donated money to EAW's defense fund, and will do it again if necessary.


----------



## csharte

I'm not a lawyer, but I've had a frivolous lawsuit thrown at me once before (like you, in a different state than the one I resided in). I was able to get it thrown out but it wasn't pretty, so I have an idea of what you're going through.  It matters the quality and experience of your attorney. I hope you received good recommendations from other lawyers.

Anyway, I don't have much to give you, but you can have my ad budget for the week. Hopefully the judge will remove your name and others like you from the list of defendants. It seems like common sense to do so...


----------



## 88149

Donated. You da best. I went through a similar frivolous many years ago and know the pressure and heartache and time lost seems monstrous. But it will pass. I admire your courage. Endure, be well.


----------



## Flay Otters

All my best.


----------



## RedAlert

Well, this IS a public forum.  There is not much more to discuss, then.  Keep your chins up, people!  Just make sure that you answer back, even if you are in pro per!  Do not default!

I wanna thank the mods for reopening the thread.  This sucks for you, too.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

A question for any legal eagles. With many people named in the counter-suit, if one of us files a motion to quash and the judge agrees, does it apply to all those named, or just the one who filed?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Thank you everyone, and goodness! I talked to multiple attorneys today, which just to talk to an attorney on the phone you need to know someone who knows someone who can tell you what NAME to put in the subject line to get an email back.   I have an attorney retained to begin preliminary work on my case. To give you perspective, just that case analysis is over half of what's currently fundraised and it was 1/7th of what the law firm who was the next affordable quoted me. More or less I am looking at a $10,000 cost just to get motions filed to try to stop this train from leaving the station. So that was sobering. And please don't think I just picked the cheapest attorney, he also happened to be the best candidate.

I just want to say thank you. Everyone who helped me with lawyer recommendations, messages of support, donations, etc. This is going to be a long time though even just to get motions, we've all been through this before.... so here we go. 

So one major ACK down, now tomorrow is the neurologist for the health issues I've been having. Praying it's herniated discs.


----------



## Monique

IANAL but there might cost saving measures if you and the others named can work together. 

Hope all goes well at the doc tomorrow.


----------



## cdk

> A question for any legal eagles. With many people named in the counter-suit, if one of us files a motion to quash and the judge agrees, does it apply to all those named, or just the one who filed?


If it's a motion to quash for lack of personal jurisdiction in California, the motion applies only to the person who filed the motion because each cross-defendant's contacts with California are different and will be assessed individually.

That said, one successful motion will be a blueprint for everyone else to follow assuming everyone's contacts with California are minimal.

If you have the time, for people who are out-of-state, you should read the case in the link below. It's very thorough and it will give you a good understanding of the concept of personal jurisdiction. Coincidentally, it's a defamation lawsuit against an out-of-state defendant based on a post on Facebook. There's a good discussion of "General Principles of Personal Jurisdiction" that starts on page 8, and although it may all seem very long and boring, you should feel very comfortable after you read pages 16 to 25.

When you click on the link below, it takes you to the "Case Summary" page.
Four lines down, click on the PDF where you see: "Court of Appeal Opinion:[PDF] [DOC]"

http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/mainCaseScreen.cfm?dist=43&doc_id=2058429&doc_no=G049107&request_token=NiIwLSInLkg%2BW0BNSCFdUE9IMEw7UFxbJyBOQzpSQCAgCg%3D%3D

Hope this helps.


----------



## David VanDyke

You might want to simply see if you can retain Christina's lawyer?


----------



## Patty Jansen

Donated.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Donated.


----------



## RicardoFayet

Donated. Stay strong.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Using the same lawyer could be a way to reduce costs, but it also comes with downsides for everyone sharing. All of us would be giving up confidentiality and many of us live in different states, have different circumstances, and could have interests aligned now but that change down the road etc and then there's problems of that and who has to get a new lawyer to get them up to speed etc.?

Every attorney I spoke with did say speaking about strategy, sharing research on similar motions etc. were all highly recommended and there are times when people do share attorneys in situations like this. It's a judgment call.

I can say that some of the named defendants and I have been discussing this issue and what's the best decision moving forward, and that's all I can share. I empathize that from the outside it seems like the easy answer is "save money" and that is definitely a component of this, but so is making smart decisions based on the situation. 

I am so thankful the funds raised yesterday covered my retainer to get a case analysis. That was a godsend I needed, like okay I can do this one day at a time... I don't want people to view some of us having separate counsel as us necessarily working against each other, it's like the Olympic gymnastic team. We're all on the same team but we have to go out there and do our individual performance to contribute to the overall outcome, whatever that is.


----------



## Ann in Arlington

Folks -- all discussion about the lawsuit (and ONLY the lawsuit) must take place in this one thread. This can include funding efforts for legal fees but only in this thread, Thanks. I've merged the most recent thread started by Elizabeth.

Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Adair Hart

Donated, Elizabeth. Hang in there.


----------



## MyraScott

I think all the defendants in this counterclaim may want to read up on what a SLAPP suit is.

https://www.casp.net/sued-for-freedom-of-speech-california/what-is-a-first-amendment-slapp/



> While most SLAPPs are legally meritless, they can effectively achieve their principal purpose: to chill public debate on specific issues. Defending a SLAPP requires substantial money, time, and legal resources, and thus diverts the defendant's attention away from the public issue. Equally important, however, a SLAPP also sends a message to others: you, too, can be sued if you speak up.


I'd say this countersuit is clearly a SLAPP, as Rebecca herself issued a warning a while back that this is exactly what she planned to do:

_Edited to remove screenshot from third party site. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_

If you've been named in the crossclaim, educate yourself here:

https://www.casp.net/uncategorized/stages-of-a-slapp-suit/



> By filing a special motion to strike with the court, your lawyer is asking the judge to find that the plaintiff has sued you for exercising your free speech and/or petition rights, and that the plaintiff has failed to show that his/her suit has merit.





> If you are successful on your special motion to strike, you are automatically entitled to the attorney's fees and costs you incurred defending against the SLAPP.


----------



## Sam Kates

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Using the same lawyer could be a way to reduce costs, but it also comes with downsides for everyone sharing. All of us would be giving up confidentiality and many of us live in different states, have different circumstances, and could have interests aligned now but that change down the road etc and then there's problems of that and who has to get a new lawyer to get them up to speed etc.?
> 
> Every attorney I spoke with did say speaking about strategy, sharing research on similar motions etc. were all highly recommended and there are times when people do share attorneys in situations like this. It's a judgment call.


Multiple litigants sharing the same lawyer can obviously be beneficial from a cost-sharing perspective, but can cause problems. If, as Elizabeth mentions, there comes a point when one of the litigant's interests no longer coincide with the interests of another, the lawyer is placed in a conflict of interest position. Not sure how it works in the States, but in some circumstances in the UK, if that were to happen then the lawyer may have to excuse himself entirely from the case. At best, it would mean one of the litigants having to seek separate reperesentation, often at an advanced stage of the case.

Good luck to all.


----------



## MyraScott

Also important-

If you suspect you might be included as one of the 19 unnamed DOE's, your ISP has to contact you _before_ giving out any personal information.

https://www.casp.net/uncategorized/what-to-do-when-your-internet-service-provider-tells-you-your-information-has-been-subpoenaed/

You can file a motion to quash but you would need to move quickly as the subpoena (if it was granted) will have a response date and you'll need to have your ducks in a row. These legal fees can also be recovered from the complaintant if they are deemed to fall under a SLAPP suit.


----------



## MyraScott

It's also important to note:



> You have 30 days from the date of service to file a response to the complaint.


The countersuit may be resolved without having to wait a year for the court dates by having it thrown out as meritless on the first response from the defendants. If each defendant has their own lawyer, the filer is responsible for all of those legal fees.

This could really backfire as an intimidation tactic.


----------



## cdk

If the cross-complaint was meant to intimidate, it appears to be an unwise decision that will likely result in the cross-complainant paying everyone's attorney's fees. 


> Code of Civil Procedure § 425.16. Anti-SLAPP motion:
> 
> (c)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), in any action subject to subdivision (b), a prevailing defendant on a special motion to strike shall be entitled to recover his or her attorney's fees and costs. If the court finds that a special motion to strike is frivolous or is solely intended to cause unnecessary delay, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney's fees to a plaintiff prevailing on the motion, pursuant to Section 128.5.


Everyone's interests may differ down the road, but right now, I suspect that all out-of-state cross-defendants currently have the same interest in an Anti-SLAPP motion and/or motion to quash. People might consider using one attorney for the initial motions to strike/dismiss the cross-complaint, and if unsuccessful, then consider separate counsel.


----------



## thesmallprint

Even before the latest shenanigans I was considering proposing the setting up of an AID fund (Authors in Distress) in the hope of raising a pool of cash that could be overseen by trustees.

The main reason for formalising fund raising (in my mind, at least) was to open up avenues to authors (hopefully some big Indie names) getting together and donating a title or two for AID Box Sets with all profits going to the fund. Sets of say three books could be produced in different genres. There might be legal implications, I don't know but I thought it worth seeking your views on this.

For clarity, I'm UK based.
Joe


----------



## Randall Wood

thesmallprint said:


> Even before the latest shenanigans I was considering proposing the setting up of an AID fund (Authors in Distress) in the hope of raising a pool of cash that could be overseen by trustees.
> 
> The main reason for formalising fund raising (in my mind, at least) was to open up avenues to authors (hopefully some big Indie names) getting together and donating a title or two for AID Box Sets with all profits going to the fund. Sets of say three books could be produced in different genres. There might be legal implications, I don't know but I thought it worth seeking your views on this.
> 
> For clarity, I'm UK based.
> Joe


Why not form small (or large) author "unions" with yearly dues that are used to hire and maintain a lawyer on retainer? The SciFi writers union, the Romance Authors Union, etc.


----------



## MyraScott

Randall Wood said:


> Why not form small (or large) author "unions" with yearly dues that are used to hire and maintain a lawyer on retainer? The SciFi writers union, the Romance Authors Union, etc.


What if the plaintiff and the defendant are both members? Awkward...


----------



## [email protected]

thesmallprint said:


> Even before the latest shenanigans I was considering proposing the setting up of an AID fund (Authors in Distress) in the hope of raising a pool of cash that could be overseen by trustees.
> 
> The main reason for formalising fund raising (in my mind, at least) was to open up avenues to authors (hopefully some big Indie names) getting together and donating a title or two for AID Box Sets with all profits going to the fund. Sets of say three books could be produced in different genres. There might be legal implications, I don't know but I thought it worth seeking your views on this.
> 
> For clarity, I'm UK based.
> Joe


I was kind of wondering about something like this myself. I know there is PPA for photographers, which provides very reasonable insurance for not just equipment damage, but getting sued as well (angry brides anyone?!?).

Are there any author groups that offer something similar? Affordable liability insurance perhaps, specifically geared toward and made up of authors that include indie authors of all genres?

For quick look of what I'm talking about: https://www.ppa.com/membership/content.cfm?ItemNumber=6181#business.


----------



## Becca Mills

Randall Wood said:


> Why not form small (or large) author "unions" with yearly dues that are used to hire and maintain a lawyer on retainer? The SciFi writers union, the Romance Authors Union, etc.


FYI, there already are professional organizations that accept indie writers: Science-Fiction Writers of America (which I belong to), Romance Writers of America, etc.

If you're interested in some way of pooling legal resources for authors, I'd suggest starting a separate thread about that issue. Let's keep this one focused on lawsuit updates so it doesn't derail into an argument and get locked. (The question of whether indie authors can "unionize" has come up on KB many times and tends to become heated.)


----------



## Becca Mills

I've deleted a post that continued the discussion over collective/retained legal counsel for authors.


----------



## Randall Wood

Becca Mills said:


> FYI, there already are professional organizations that accept indie writers: Science-Fiction Writers of America (which I belong to), Romance Writers of America, etc.
> 
> If you're interested in some way of pooling legal resources for authors, I'd suggest starting a separate thread about that issue. Let's keep this one focused on lawsuit updates so it doesn't derail into an argument and get locked. (The question of whether indie authors can "unionize" has come up on KB many times and tends to become heated.)


How am I spose to stirr if you keep taking my pot, Becca!?!


----------



## unkownwriter

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> What...the...unholy...


Yeah, that was pretty much my response when I first heard of it.

Elizabeth, I hope things work out quickly with a dismissal -- and the same to all named in the countersuit -- so you don't have to be worried over this.


----------



## NewKidInTown

MyraScott said:


> I'm curious how Rebecca can claim to not do business in CA when her co-author and co-promoter Jasmine Walt lives in Los Angeles. And if she's ever had a book or promoted a book that's on Google Play or Apple iBooks... she's working with California companies.
> 
> If you lived in say, North Dakota, I could see claiming that you rarely do business there (no offense North Dakota) but California? I'd say the burden of proof is on her to prove that.


So is Jasmin Walt included in the complaint since she was a copromoter?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I have an update.

First, THANK YOU SO MUCH to everyone who donated at https://gogetfunding.com/fighting-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-posts/

Thanks to those donations and my own royalties, I was able to pay a $5,000 retainer today to get things started. I can speak more about those motions after they are filed, I hope you wall understand.

If I didn't have the community's support, this would have really hurt my family at the holidays, so truly thank you. I will keep the funding page open until I know for sure this is all settled and done with. And as soon as I have more updates, I will share. Moral of the story though is even if you think you've done nothing wrong, someone suing you out-of-state is expensive to resolve.

XOXOXO
Elizabeth Ann West


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Glad you were able to pay for the retainer. I hope you will eventually be able to recoup this money.


----------



## Susan Stec

I was served last night at 9:30 and I'm now forced to seek legal services. Like others named in the suit, I don't have deep pockets. I'm raising funds to secure legal representation here, or in California like others and will use the funds to begin early motions. https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/

Beyond that, my daughter, who is also named in the summons, but not served yet, has contacted another source for assistance other than funding. If they respond favorably we may have something to add that could be of assistance to others served.

I was one of the first authors to publicly come forward by dropping out of a 3 boxsets and a collection and struggled to get a refund from the woman now suing me and the others named.

I am hopeful we can get this resolved to have stronger precedents for other authors who might find themselves in a situation like us.


----------



## Moe D

I'm a long time lurker but I finally just registered today. I'm Canadian and up here, if you sue someone and lose, loser pays all legal costs. It's one of the main reasons more Canadians don't sue. I'm curious if any of you who are named in the counter suit can get your legal fees reimbursed?


----------



## C. Gockel

Moe D said:


> I'm a long time lurker but I finally just registered today. I'm Canadian and up here, if you sue someone and lose, loser pays all legal costs. It's one of the main reasons more Canadians don't sue. I'm curious if any of you who are named in the counter suit can get your legal fees reimbursed?


There is a thing called Anti-SLAPP laws (SLAPP= "Strategic lawsuit against public participation.") So it can happen, but varies a lot from state-to-state. California seems to have rather robust Anti-SLAPP laws.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

C. Gockel said:


> There is a thing called Anti-SLAPP laws (SLAPP= "Strategic lawsuit against public participation.") So it can happen, but varies a lot from state-to-state. California seems to have rather robust Anti-SLAPP laws.


Yeeppppp. Google "SLAPP California." I'm not a lawyer, but reading the quick & dirty summary is pretty interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation


----------



## Susan Stec

Moe D said:


> I'm a long time lurker but I finally just registered today. I'm Canadian and up here, if you sue someone and lose, loser pays all legal costs. It's one of the main reasons more Canadians don't sue.


One of my long time FB friends just told me this today. If only. But that is a two sided sword. In his case it may have helped.
We are still working to find a good, but reasonably priced, lawyer. One we will be calling tomorrow, a referral from another lawyer, specializes in anti-slapp in California. So I'll get the scoop on that. The lawyer who referred said the case is perfect for federal jurisdiction or anti slapp. But she didn't do internet. 
The first lawyer we talked to on Monday, wanted a 15k retainer. I almost died. Thanks to Elizabeth and several others who have made suggestions and consoled, I'm ready to have at it again tomorrow.

One Michigan lawyer we spoke with told us we only have 21 days to respond. That was an eye opener. Can anyone confirm that?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I've done my best to reach out to all named defendants. As for collecting legal costs if we win an anti-slapp motion, we would have to still collect. I've managed my expectations to plan this is going to be an expensive endeavor with no gain. I still believe the entire situation is important to our community for the standards it will set going forward, but what's the phrase? You can't squeeze blood from a stone? This whole mess started with a refusal to give refunds.....


----------



## thesmallprint

One of the several downsides coming from the most recent events is the change of focus on funding. Rather than supporting Christina alone, others now also need assistance and that might yet increase.

I mooted the idea on the forum of an Authors Distress Fund, but there was no enthusiasm for it in the structure I set out. Still, it might be better to try to establish one funding point here with money raised being split among defendants. Or, a donor could add a comment requesting that their donation goes to a certain person. I strongly believe that a united front in fund raising will help all involved here. Fragmentation is rarely beneficial in these situations, especially here when a deliberate tactic appears to be 'divide and conquer'.


----------



## Awasin

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I've done my best to reach out to all named defendants. As for collecting legal costs if we win an anti-slapp motion, we would have to still collect. *I've managed my expectations to plan this is going to be an expensive endeavor with no gain.* I still believe the entire situation is important to our community for the standards it will set going forward, but what's the phrase? You can't squeeze blood from a stone? This whole mess started with a refusal to give refunds.....


There's an old Chinese saying that it's better to lose a new suit of clothes than to win a lawsuit.

Quite apart from the matter of collecting on a judgement is funding the inevitable appeal in the event of victory.

On the bright side, it won't take up as much of your time as you fear and while it's unpleasant, on the scale of life's misfortunes it's trivial compared to, say, a sick child.


----------



## Awasin

Moe D said:


> I'm a long time lurker but I finally just registered today. I'm Canadian and up here, if you sue someone and lose, loser pays all legal costs. It's one of the main reasons more Canadians don't sue. I'm curious if any of you who are named in the counter suit can get your legal fees reimbursed?


That's not true. Costs are awarded but they're intended to defray legal expenses not reimburse them. They are awarded on a tariff for legal fees, plus reasonable disbursements or expenses.

There are mechanisms in place - and each Province has different rules - to encourage settlement through the use of court costs. For example, if a formal offer to settle is delivered and the party delivering it beats that offer at trial they can be awarded double costs which can result in a plaintiff owing the defendant money at the end of the day.

I'm betting California has somewhat analogous rules and would guess that their court costs are likely more generous than what would be awarded in Canada.

It's heresy to suggest that the lawsuit in question could be settled at this stage but you know, it could be. ✌&#127998;


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Susan Stec said:


> I am hopeful we can get this resolved to have stronger precedents for other authors who might find themselves in a situation like us.


This is exactly why this case is important to all of us. Going forward, this litigation will put a damper on the enthusiasm with which some people will dance across the moral and ethical lines of departure. This is why I became involved.

I don't want to talk about it just yet, but there may be a really big surprise coming in the very near future.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Moe D

Awasin said:


> That's not true. Costs are awarded but they're intended to defray legal expenses not reimburse them. They are awarded on a tariff for legal fees, plus reasonable disbursements or expenses.
> 
> There are mechanisms in place - and each Province has different rules - to encourage settlement through the use of court costs. For example, if a formal offer to settle is delivered and the party delivering it beats that offer at trial they can be awarded double costs which can result in a plaintiff owing the defendant money at the end of the day.
> 
> I'm betting California has somewhat analogous rules and would guess that their court costs are likely more generous than what would be awarded in Canada.
> 
> It's heresy to suggest that the lawsuit in question could be settled at this stage but you know, it could be. ✌&#127998;


Perhaps I oversimplified my statement. The fact is that Canadians are far less litigious and the reason for that is the threat of having to pay some or all legal costs. The possible "loser pays" outcome keeps people from suing every Tom, Dick or Sally, but that's just my opinion.

To all involved, I hope for a speedy resolution for all of you.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I don't want to talk about it just yet, but there may be a really big surprise coming in the very near future.


That would be wonderful, Wayne, because even though I have sufficient proof her allegations are bogus, I still have to come up with the funds to fight back. And that is the point her new tactic is making. It's going to be hard for most of us. My sales have gone down from 4 figures (which I though was amazing) to 2 since this all stared for me last December 26th. Still looking for a lawyer today. I wish you luck in your endivor.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I don't want to talk about it just yet, but there may be a really big surprise coming in the very near future.


Ooh, like a holiday treat! 
In all seriousness, I can't imagine the stress this must be putting on those of you involved. I can't do much but I've been donating.


----------



## RedAlert

I am so sorry this is happening to all of you.  If you have been served, I urge you not to default.  If you default, she wins against you.  She only needs one of you to falter. 
The most imperfect answer is better than nothing at all.  Go online and find something to copy; you can do this.  I believe nowadays you have to file papers online in L.A.  You can do this, too.  File papers begging to be relieved of fees, as well, perhaps.  But, whatever you do, answer back.  The best answer, of course, will come from an attorney.  Even if all you pay for is just the opening, generic answer.

I am not an attorney and do not write about attorneys.    I believe in your cause, and want you to win.  I also want Kboards to prevail.  GGGRRRRR!!!!  Get your game faces on.


----------



## Awasin

RedAlert said:


> I am so sorry this is happening to all of you. If you have been served, I urge you not to default. If you default, she wins against you. She only needs one of you to falter.
> The most imperfect answer is better than nothing at all. Go online and find something to copy; you can do this. I believe nowadays you have to file papers online in L.A. You can do this, too. File papers begging to be relieved of fees, as well, perhaps. But, whatever you do, answer back. The best answer, of course, will come from an attorney. Even if all you pay for is just the opening, generic answer.
> 
> I am not an attorney and do not write about attorneys.  I believe in your cause, and want you to win. *I also want Kboards to prevail. * GGGRRRRR!!!! Get your game faces on.


This must be costing Kboards something, for legal opinions if nothing else; they have exposure too, and I think Christina mentioned they were served with a subpoena.

IOW perhaps a donation to Kboards is in order.


----------



## Atlantisatheart

I haven't read the whole thread but I'll just leave this here...

Sanctions against frivolous lawsuits and legal tactics in California state courts can be sought under sections 128.5 and 128.7 of the California Code of Civil Procedure.1 Section 128.5 authorizes a trial court to impose sanctions of reasonable expenses, including attorney fees, against litigants acting in bad faith.

Just saying.


----------



## unkownwriter

> I don't want to talk about it just yet, but there may be a really big surprise coming in the very near future.


Oooh! Intriguing.

I feel for everyone involved in this mess. But as Wayne says, it's a battle that must be fought and won if we want to see ethical behavior be the future.


----------



## Monique

Looking forward to the big surprise, Wayne!

Also, this is all a reminder of what courage it takes to stand up for your convictions. Small or large, it takes courage to do what you think is right no matter what the consequences might be. Thank you all for being examples of such courage.


----------



## cdk

> Sanctions against frivolous lawsuits and legal tactics in California state courts can be sought under sections 128.5 and 128.7 of the California Code of Civil Procedure.1 Section 128.5 authorizes a trial court to impose sanctions of reasonable expenses, including attorney fees, against litigants acting in bad faith.


For people without a handy California Code of Civil Procedure, § 128.5 says:

"(a) A trial court may order a party, the party's attorney, or both, to pay the reasonable expenses, including attorney's fees, incurred by another party as a result of actions or tactics, made in bad faith, that are frivolous or solely intended to cause unnecessary delay. . . .

(b) For purposes of this section:

(1) 'Actions or tactics' include, but are not limited to, the making or opposing of motions or the filing and service of a complaint, cross-complaint, answer, or other responsive pleading. . . .

(2) 'Frivolous' means totally and completely without merit or for the sole purpose of harassing an opposing party.

(c) Expenses pursuant to this section shall not be imposed except on notice contained in a party's moving or responding papers or, on the court's own motion, after notice and opportunity to be heard. An order imposing expenses shall be in writing and shall recite in detail the action or tactic or circumstances justifying the order.

_Zamos v. Stroud_ (2004) 32 Cal.4th 958, also makes the attorney personally liable for malicious prosecution for prosecuting a lawsuit that lacks probable cause.


----------



## C. Gockel

cdk said:


> *Zamos v. Stroud (2004) 32 Cal.4th 958, also makes the attorney personally liable for malicious prosecution for prosecuting a lawsuit that lacks probable cause.
> *


----------



## MyraScott

cdk said:


> (2) 'Frivolous' means totally and completely without merit or for the sole purpose of harassing an opposing party.


Like targeting the opposing party's top donors in order to punish them for their support? Seems to fit the frivolous definition.


----------



## Susan Stec

NewKidInTown said:


> So is Jasmin Walt included in the complaint since she was a copromoter?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


They are no longer coauthors


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Perhaps the Alliance of Independent Authors could be of assistance.

http://allianceindependentauthors.org/members/join/


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## Awasin

Awasin said:


> This must be costing Kboards something, for legal opinions if nothing else; they have exposure too, and I think Christina mentioned they were served with a subpoena.
> 
> IOW perhaps a donation to Kboards is in order.


I don't always quote myself but when I do...

First, I didn't mean that Kboards had taken sides in this when I said they had exposure; they clearly haven't.

But it is the kind of thing - when you're talking about thousands of dollars for lawyers - that might make one wonder whether the game is worth the candle.

I don't want Kboards to disappear. Five bucks a month for a subscription is what Dirty Discourse charges I think, and that seems quite fair, and there's also the option of buying advertising here; both are deductible and well worth doing if you care about this place.

And of course, you can also support the folks who do advertise here (which you collectively don't currently seem to do BTW; how hard is it to download a book that's in KU?).


----------



## MyraScott

I would support a KBoards legal fund, if needed.  I'm sure they'll let us know. 

I don't think they want to make this a subscription-based board behind a paywall... that's a very different business model than ad-sponsored content.  But a voluntary donation would be a good option.


----------



## 41419

MyraScott said:


> I would support a KBoards legal fund, if needed. I'm sure they'll let us know.
> 
> I don't think they want to make this a subscription-based board behind a paywall... that's a very different business model than ad-sponsored content. But a voluntary donation would be a good option.


I'm sure that if they were fighting the subpoena, or otherwise attempting to protect members' anonymity in this matter, then that would be a popular fund.

Did Kboards make any statement - either publicly or privately to those directly involved - regarding what position they might be taking? Or are they simply complying?

This would seem to be relevant information, not just for those directly involved, but all members who aren't posting under their real names here.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

That's probably something best asked directly of the owner here.


----------



## MonkeyScribe

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> That's probably something best asked directly of the owner here.


I took it as a direct question, and I'm sure all of those who have contributed to this thread (or financially) would like to know the answer.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks, I just want to reiterate that we believe it is neither appropriate nor wise for *any member* involved in a lawsuit, either directly or indirectly, to discuss their strategy or other specific details of that lawsuit on our very public forum.

Thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> This is exactly why this case is important to all of us. Going forward, this litigation will put a damper on the enthusiasm with which some people will dance across the moral and ethical lines of departure. This is why I became involved..
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


A reminder - This is why all of us are here. Whether we are here offering verbal or monetary support, I believe we should all try to adhere to the guidelines of our moderator.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Susan Stec

My daughter and I now have an attorney in California (thanks to the friends who gave me a referral) and we could really use your support. His retainer is $10,000. We borrowed 5k, scraped up another 2k, but we're short 3k. (a big thank you to those who have already supported, it is greatly appreciated)

My daughter and I hope you will consider supporting us. https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/ Even $10 helps.


_edited to remove off topic commentary -- Ann_


----------



## Scarlettletters

Donated to Susan Stec, and I hope some more people will donate soon.

Folks, this could happen to ANY of us.  Heck, I could be sued just for donating.  Not saying that it would be right, or legal, but it could happen.  I am a passionate advocate of freedom of speech, and lawsuits like this have a chilling effect.  

If a bunch of people donated even $5, it would add up!


----------



## Susan Stec

Scarlettletters said:


> Donated to Susan Stec, I am a passionate advocate of freedom of speech, and lawsuits like this have a chilling effect.


Thank you for your generious support. It's greatly appreciated. Money has been trickling in, and that's very encouraging, especially with the holiday season.

We still need about $2000 to meet the lawyer's retainer, but they are working with us. And you're right. This can happen to any of us if we don't put a stop to it. We"re making a statement as a community. That's what it's all about. Even everyone's words of encouragement and support are helpful, and also important to keep this going, make it happen.

Susan


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Hearing date is set for January 25 8:30 AM for a motion to quash for both me and Wayne Stinnett (our facts were very similar and we were served only hours apart so we also had the same timeline). Motion was sent to plaintiff's lawyers as well. 

That's all the update I have so far.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Hearing date is set for January 25 8:30 AM for a motion to quash for both me and Wayne Stinnett (our facts were very similar and we were served only hours apart so we also had the same timeline). Motion was sent to plaintiff's lawyers as well.
> 
> That's all the update I have so far.


I'd like to add that on January 25th, at about 8:31 AM, this frivolous attempt to distract will be over and we can turn our attention to the very serious case at hand, Garner v. Hamilton.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'd like to add that on January 25th, at about 8:31 AM, this frivolous attempt to distract will be over and we can turn our attention to the very serious case at hand, Garner v. Hamilton.


Date noted in diary


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'd like to add that on January 25th, at about 8:31 AM, this frivolous attempt to distract will be over and we can turn our attention to the very serious case at hand, Garner v. Hamilton.


Fingers crossed for a quick end to this drama for you both.


----------



## Guest

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'd like to add that on January 25th, at about 8:31 AM, this frivolous attempt to distract will be over and we can turn our attention to the very serious case at hand, Garner v. Hamilton.


May the Force be with you both!


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'd like to add that on January 25th, at about 8:31 AM, this frivolous attempt to distract will be over and we can turn our attention to the very serious case at hand, Garner v. Hamilton.


Congrats, you two. Fingers crossed for you both. My daughter and I still have ours ahead of us.

Also want to thank those of you who have continued to fund our retainer. We still have $1500 to come up with by January 31st. Every little bit helps. https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/


----------



## MarilynVix

I just wanted to lend my support to all the regular Kboarders that were named in the countersuit. I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I have to mention, this is the first time I had to really think about posting on the board before doing so. I always know that this is a public board, and think about what I say. I always think through and edit so it is the kernel of truth to what I want to express.

I commend the people supporting in all ways, with our words, comments and cash. I've been low on cash, so I've not donated, but I wanted to lend words of encouragement, because as writers, we have plenty of that to spare.  Keep fighting the good fight!

Found this mention of a lawsuit ruling in California. Don't think it was posted yet. 
http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2017/09/07/hamilton-attorney-slapped-back-by-california-court/

Has to do with free speech in regards to what you can say about candidates running. But deals with Free Speech. Protects rights of people that live in California.


----------



## Susan Stec

MarilynVix said:


> I just wanted to lend my support to all the regular Kboarders that were named in the countersuit.
> I commend the people supporting in all ways, with our words, comments and cash. I've been low on cash, so I've not donated, but I wanted to lend words of encouragement, because as writers, we have plenty of that to spare.  Keep fighting the good fight!
> 
> Found this mention of a lawsuit ruling in California. Don't think it was posted yet.
> http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2017/09/07/hamilton-attorney-slapped-back-by-california-court/


Thank you so much. I've seen a couple of cases like this. One forwarded by my lawyer.

I just skimmed the first couple of paragraphs of this one. Eager to read the whole thing. It sure seems to relate. I'll see if my lawyer can pull the actual case file. I appreciate your support, Marilyn.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

MarilynVix said:


> I just wanted to lend my support to all the regular Kboarders that were named in the countersuit. I've been following this thread since the beginning, and I have to mention, this is the first time I had to really think about posting on the board before doing so. I always know that this is a public board, and think about what I say. I always think through and edit so it is the kernel of truth to what I want to express.
> 
> I commend the people supporting in all ways, with our words, comments and cash. I've been low on cash, so I've not donated, but I wanted to lend words of encouragement, because as writers, we have plenty of that to spare.  Keep fighting the good fight!
> 
> Found this mention of a lawsuit ruling in California. Don't think it was posted yet.
> http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2017/09/07/hamilton-attorney-slapped-back-by-california-court/
> 
> Has to do with free speech in regards to what you can say about candidates running. But deals with Free Speech. Protects rights of people that live in California.


Thanks for the interesting link. It makes me wonder if they will have any money left to pay for the opposing parties fees if they lose yet again


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks for the interesting link. It makes me wonder if they will have any money left to pay for the opposing parties fees if they lose yet again


You assume anyone will get anything, Jan. When she loses, there will be a judgement against her, nothing more. She would only need to pay her lawyer about $500 to file bankruptcy. I can pretty much guarantee that's what she'll do.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Wayne Stinnett said:


> You assume anyone will get anything, Jan. When she loses, there will be a judgement against her, nothing more. She would only need to pay her lawyer about $500 to file bankruptcy. I can pretty much guarantee that's what she'll do.


Since we're into assuming, if that happens, can we assume that it will be the end of the whole thing?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> You assume anyone will get anything, Jan. When she loses, there will be a judgement against her, nothing more. She would only need to pay her lawyer about $500 to file bankruptcy. I can pretty much guarantee that's what she'll do.


That was my thinking . If you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose .


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## PhoenixS

The bankruptcy tactic was discussed early on in the original thread:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252500.msg3516552.html#msg3516552

And more discussion on page 3, beginning here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252500.msg3516598.html#msg3516598

This, of course, was before the SLAPP and anti-SLAPP filings, but as J.A. noted, bankruptcy doesn't discharge *future* debts, and since the main trial is set for a future date, filing bankruptcy now to avoid any anti-SLAPP judgments wouldn't protect her from any judgments in the main case. Plus, unless there are other creditors involved, most bankruptcy judges won't allow a person to file bankruptcy to only avoid court costs. And, as some recent high-profile cases have shown, if you actually have money that you don't declare and file for bankruptcy, it can come back and bite you with real jail time. So lots of caveats there.


----------



## J.A. Sutherland

Man, I stop following this thread for a couple months and things go nuts ....

I donated to Christina's original fund and today to Elizabeth's and Susan's -- please let me know if I missed anyone.

If by some judicial insanity [opinion, hyperbole, so I don't get sued] the counter claim survives the 1/25 hearing (hopefully an anti-SLAPP motion?) and there are others needing assistance, especially any of the Roes being unmasked who may not want to be public, you might try reaching out to @popehat on twitter. He has a special place in his heart for "censorious arsehats" [quoting so I don't get sued] and will occasionally throw up a signal in search of pro bono help in this sort of thing [for informational use only, statement of fact, and not intended to be an endorsement of anything that might get me sued by a "censorious arsehat" [quote and not actionable]].


----------



## ChristinaGarner

J.A. Sutherland said:


> Man, I stop following this thread for a couple months and things go nuts ....
> 
> I donated to Christina's original fund and today to Elizabeth's and Susan's -- please let me know if I missed anyone.
> 
> If by some judicial insanity [opinion, hyperbole, so I don't get sued] the counter claim survives the 1/25 hearing (hopefully an anti-SLAPP motion?) and there are others needing assistance, especially any of the Roes being unmasked who may not want to be public, you might try reaching out to @popehat on twitter. He has a special place in his heart for "censorious arsehats" [quoting so I don't get sued] and will occasionally throw up a signal in search of pro bono help in this sort of thing [for informational use only, statement of fact, and not intended to be an endorsement of anything that might get me sued by a "censorious arsehat" [quote and not actionable]].


You are so right about Kenneth White/Popehat. I didn't think to contact him about this, but he tentatively agreed to represent me when I was faced with a defamation suit from two MTV reality "stars" accused of rape over a blog post I wrote about MTV and rape culture. (http://www.christinagarner.com/2012/10/26/rape-is-the-result-of-rapists/)

I did know of him nor contact him directly at the time, but attorney, Paul Levy of Public Citizen, reached out on my behalf and he agreed to take the case had it escalated to litigation. Thankfully, it never did, but it was a huge relief to have help. Mr. Levy blogged about it here: http://pubcit.typepad.com/clpblog/2013/08/frivolous-libel-threats-the-reality-show.html

There are definitely resources and anti-SLAPP penalties are stiff.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Side note: I just read the last line of Mr. Levy's post and burst out laughing:

"Indeed, one might wonder whether a client's interests are well-served when a lawyer sends threats of libel litigation based only on their say-so about the facts."


----------



## Susan Stec

J.A. Sutherland said:


> Man, I stop following this thread for a couple months and things go nuts ....
> 
> I donated to Christina's original fund and today to Elizabeth's and Susan's -- please let me know if I missed anyone.
> 
> If by some judicial insanity [opinion, hyperbole, so I don't get sued] the counter claim survives the 1/25 hearing (hopefully an anti-SLAPP motion?) and there are others needing assistance, especially any of the Roes being unmasked who may not want to be public, you might try reaching out to @popehat on twitter. He has a special place in his heart for "censorious arsehats" [quoting so I don't get sued] and will occasionally throw up a signal in search of pro bono help in this sort of thing [for informational use only, statement of fact, and not intended to be an endorsement of anything that might get me sued by a "censorious arsehat" [quote and not actionable]].


.

Hahaha, first laugh out loud moment today. I think you're covered. Hahahaha

Thank you so much, J.A. Your generosity is much appreciated. Still a little over $1300 short of my 10k retainer.

Man, I'd like to toss my 2 cents in the pot about a possible bankruptcy tactic, but for the moment i'll pull a Schultz on a Hogan's heroes, and say "I know nothing."


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Susan Stec said:


> Congrats, you two. Fingers crossed for you both. My daughter and I still have ours ahead of us.
> 
> Also want to thank those of you who have continued to fund our retainer. We still have $1500 to come up with by January 31st. Every little bit helps. https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/


Just dropped a dime in the kitty.


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated.

Nick


----------



## Susan Stec

Nicholas Erik said:


> Donated.
> 
> Nick


Thank you Nick. The mercury is rising. Yay!


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Just dropped a dime in the kitty.


That is very sweet of you Wayne. Especially since you have your own kitty to mind. Jeni and I thank you. Our lawyer will be filing by the 19th.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Are we counting down to the 25th?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Hopefully we will get a preliminary judgment before then. Apparently that is customary in California. But both sides can present oral arguments day of...last time the judge didn't change his mind.


----------



## Susan Stec

My lawyer filed a quash Friday. Waiting for a hearing date.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


----------



## 91831

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


Fabulous news!!!


----------



## Guest

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


That's fantastic news (even if tentative and not yet official!) will there also be a ruling about costs, or does that require a seperate action?


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


Awesome to hear!


----------



## Guest

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


That's wonderful news! Hopefully you'll also get reimbursed for legal expenses!


----------



## MyCatDoesNotConsent

Я не согласен с новым TOS


----------



## 39416

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


Can you say what the court found defective?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

loraininflorida said:


> Can you say what the court found defective?


Here is the filing: https://www.docdroid.net/AjMA1H7/c10-garner-bc664530.pdf#page=5


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


Hooray! That's great news.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

From the judge:

"if mere commentary on California cases conferred jurisdiction, every news anchor from here to New York would be subject to suit."

"In the court’s judgment, it would be unfair for the court to impose jurisdiction on foreign defendants simply because they had made donations to California residents. If X-Ds West and Stinnett had given P/X-D money for groceries instead of money for legal fees there would obviously be no jurisdiction, yet the result would be the same: P/X-D could take her monthly grocery budget and apply it to her legal fees. If jurisdiction is found on the basis of publicly announced donations alone, any person who publicly donates to any victim’s fund could be slapped with a complaint or cross-complaint for defamation."


----------



## ChristinaGarner

This same judge will hear all of the motions filed in this case which (to my non-legally trained mind) bodes well for other motions to quash based on personal jurisdiction.


----------



## C. Gockel

ChristinaGarner said:


> From the judge:
> 
> "if mere commentary on California cases conferred jurisdiction, every news anchor from here to New York would be subject to suit."
> 
> "In the court's judgment, it would be unfair for the court to impose jurisdiction on foreign defendants simply because they had made donations to California residents. If X-Ds West and Stinnett had given P/X-D money for groceries instead of money for legal fees there would obviously be no jurisdiction, yet the result would be the same: P/X-D could take her monthly grocery budget and apply it to her legal fees. If jurisdiction is found on the basis of publicly announced donations alone, any person who publicly donates to any victim's fund could be slapped with a complaint or cross-complaint for defamation."


I want to kiss this judge.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

I think the judge was right to think about the larger ramifications about donations and statements of support conveying personal jurisdiction. I put an official stop to my fundraising but please don't forget the other defendants in this case. It cost $5000 just to get this sorted for two of us that had similar facts that we could share a lawyer. And just to GET a lawyer in another state, especially California was a challenge because I and others are not local. For me and a few others it took knowing someone who knew someone who knew someone just to get phone calls back.

And since now I know it's legally okay to say this, I will be donating again to Christina and Susan (and if Bill or Perry have funds let me know) at the end of this month when royalties come back in again.


----------



## Susan Stec

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


Yay! So excited for both of you. Woohoo! I know you both are relieved. 
Still waiting to see what mine does, we filed on Friday. Jeni is separate because she has still not been served.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Woo hoo hooo!!!!  Fabulous news! And now, on to the next!


----------



## Vidya

"Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED."

That's fantastic! Congrats, Elizabeth and Wayne. I didn't read the whole of this thread but have been reading the last few pages to see how it goes for you guys.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

WasAnn said:


> Will the SLAPP anti-SLAPP ruling still happen? What about costs for you? Will you recover them or is it just home free for filing like that?


As far as I know, there is not recovery of fees. That's the problem with expensive places like California. Just to file a motion in LA County costs $400. Just the first filing fee!

Since Wayne and I are now dismissed, we are not able to file anti-slapp against her in California. It is just a cost of doing business. :/ But I am hopeful what's happened here has given the community a better than university classroom experience in business litigation.

Be very clear in the contracts you make and with who and how. Know people's real names and real addresses. And part of my 2018 business plan with my revenue is now keeping a kitty for legal costs.... always wondered why that's a business expense on the Schedule C.


----------



## Can neither confirm nor deny that I am W.R. Ginge

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Tentative ruling, won't be official until the 25th. Me and Wayne's motion to quash is GRANTED and we are DISMISSED.


 

Whoop! Well done!


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Glad to hear the motion was granted, but kinda disappointed about the dismissal. I like the sound of anti-slapping her. Without an anti-slapp we can't get money back. Not that that's the important thing, it isn't. Because, I'd just roll it back into the next person's fund-raiser.

_Edited. - Becca_


----------



## thesmallprint

Good news. Congratulations on your courage and perseverance and kudos to a wise judge.


----------



## ShayneRutherford

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Glad to hear the motion was granted, but kinda disappointed about the dismissal. I like the sound of anti-slapping her. Without an anti-slapp we can't get money back. Not that that's the important thing, it isn't. Because, I'd just roll it back into the next person's fund-raiser.


Speaking of fundraisers, is there a link to Christina's fund?


----------



## MyraScott

Glad these were handled, and fairly quickly compared to what Christina has had to go through!  Her case still has a long, long way to go; I can't even imagine the stress she's still under.


----------



## ShayneRutherford

Oh hey, found it!

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

And it could use some love, too.


----------



## MyraScott

I think you can paypal her directly as well... looking for the details here somewhere earlier in the thread...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> As far as I know, there is not recovery of fees. That's the problem with expensive places like California. Just to file a motion in LA County costs $400. Just the first filing fee!
> 
> Since Wayne and I are now dismissed, we are not able to file anti-slapp against her in California. It is just a cost of doing business. :/ But I am hopeful what's happened here has given the community a better than university classroom experience in business litigation.
> 
> Be very clear in the contracts you make and with who and how. Know people's real names and real addresses. And part of my 2018 business plan with my revenue is now keeping a kitty for legal costs.... always wondered why that's a business expense on the Schedule C.


Pity about the recovery of fees not being allowed. Perhaps a class action suit for harassment


----------



## unkownwriter

Good news for Elizabeth and Wayne, and hoping for the others to get the same ruling, and soon. That judge sounds like a winner, so I sent him/her some good energy.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

I'm glad this judge is so knowledgable. I appreciate the reference to similar cases and their thoughtful remarks on implications and reasoning behind their decision.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Just heard, the decision was finalized. Judge said the decision in his opinion wasn't close and if he had found there to be jurisdiction, he would expect anti-SLAPP. 

Other side brought a court reporter today, an extra expense, so we've been warned to expect an appeal.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Just heard, the decision was finalized. Judge said the decision in his opinion wasn't close and if he had found there to be jurisdiction, he would expect anti-SLAPP.
> 
> Other side brought a court reporter today, an extra expense, so we've been warned to expect an appeal.


Thanks for the update  . But looks like more dragging out of the case .


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Her attorney is making good money, anyway. If he/she goes further and encourages her to appeal, it will be more. But the court of appeal would have to agree to hear it. Sorry if it is not over for your sakes though.


----------



## MyraScott

Appeals are expensive.  

She posted just last month that she was going to shut OTOH down if she didn't get more business.  I guess she found it, because legal fees don't seem to be an issue.


----------



## 39416

Usedtoposthere said:


> Her attorney is making good money, anyway. If he/she goes further and encourages her to appeal, it will be more. But the court of appeal would have to agree to hear it. Sorry if it is not over for your sakes though.


Appellate courts do have to "hear" most appeals (though may not have to grant oral argument time). It's the state's Supreme Court that can refuse to take an appeal.


----------



## Guest

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Just heard, the decision was finalized. Judge said the decision in his opinion wasn't close and if he had found there to be jurisdiction, he would expect anti-SLAPP.


This almost sounds like an "I dare you to appeal" because if an appeals court does find jurisdiction, in most cases it would go back to the original judge, who is basically saying that jurisdiction would trigger anti-SLAPP.


----------



## Rex Jameson

MyraScott said:


> Appeals are expensive.
> 
> She posted just last month that she was going to shut OTOH down if she didn't get more business. I guess she found it, because legal fees don't seem to be an issue.


No, she hasn't found it. She has taken out loans.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## PhoenixS

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Just heard, the decision was finalized. Judge said the decision in his opinion wasn't close and if he had found there to be jurisdiction, he would expect anti-SLAPP.
> 
> Other side brought a court reporter today, an extra expense, so we've been warned to expect an appeal.


To this layman's eyes, it appears that the judge might be suggesting if anyone else is named in the cross-suit (or if an appellate court somehow overturns this judge's decision), that an anti-SLAPP would be the way to go. That's pretty telling, imo. Do judges often suggest next-step strategy unless they're already fairly confident of the outcome? Plus bonus: attorney fees for those X-defendants would be payable by RH should she lose an anti-SLAPP.


----------



## 39416

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This almost sounds like an "I dare you to appeal" because if an appeals court does find jurisdiction, in most cases it would go back to the original judge, who is basically saying that jurisdiction would trigger anti-SLAPP.


That's exactly what I thought. If a judge said something like that to me, no way in the world would I want my client to appeal unless I knew I had a rock solid way to get the judge kicked off the case, or I knew he would be gone due to rotation. That's just asking for it IMO.


----------



## 39416

I don't know California, but in my state the parties can always request a mediation: they sit down with a professional mediator, everyone has their say, and the mediator tries to work it out to everyone's acceptance. In my experience mediation has about a 90% success rate, even in the most acrimonious of disputes (I suspect greatly due to the litigants having become sick of paying attorney fees --that creates _loads_ of motivation in all parties).

_Edited to delete quoted material. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixS said:


> To this layman's eyes, it appears that the judge might be suggesting if anyone else is named in the cross-suit (or if an appellate court somehow overturns this judge's decision), that an anti-SLAPP would be the way to go. That's pretty telling, imo. Do judges often suggest next-step strategy unless they're already fairly confident of the outcome? Plus bonus: attorney fees for those X-defendants would be payable by RH should she lose an anti-SLAPP.


Want to make sure this point of Phoenix's doesn't get lost, as it's a very good one.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

If there's something to be contributed to the case, or perhaps well-wishes for those involved, fine, but arguing stuff we've already hashed out in other threads is only going to cloud the waters.

At this point, if someone wishes for more information, they can read the threads or reach out via private PM.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

The IGNORE button is a beautiful thing here at KBoards. I suggest using it to avoid getting riled up by posts attempting to divert the conversation to the topics already discussed in the (multiple) locked thread(s). Keeping this thread open for discussion of the court case is important.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

I think it is positive all around that the judge gave a very thorough response to his decision. Sending good vibes for Christina's case & hoping the rational line of decisions continues.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Evenstar

Just a reminder that this thread must be kept limited to discussion of the lawsuit.

I've had a quick read through and I can see there has been some deviation, but I would like to commend the majority on how civil you have remained.

Thanks
Evenstar, Moderator


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Evenstar said:


> Just a reminder that this thread must be kept limited to discussion of the lawsuit.
> 
> I've had a quick read through and I can see there has been some deviation, but I would like to commend the majority on how civil you have remained.
> 
> Thanks
> Evenstar, Moderator


Thanks for allowing the thread to remain open, Evenstar.


----------



## lilywhite

Yes, thank you.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Quote from: PhoenixS on Today at 03:09:50 PM

To this layman's eyes, it appears that the judge might be suggesting if anyone else is named in the cross-suit (or if an appellate court somehow overturns this judge's decision), that an anti-SLAPP would be the way to go. That's pretty telling, imo. Do judges often suggest next-step strategy unless they're already fairly confident of the outcome? Plus bonus: attorney fees for those X-defendants would be payable by RH should she lose an anti-SLAPP.



ChristinaGarner said:


> Want to make sure this point of Phoenix's doesn't get lost, as it's a very good one.


I think Phoenix left out a small detail. Unless I'm mistaken, if RH looses an anti-slapp, the attorney fees of the cross-defendents would be payable, jointly and severally, by RH *AND her attorney*. After the judge's statement, the attorney would have to be seriously deficient upstairs, to attempt an appeal.

I kinda hope he does.


----------



## Becca Mills

Big thanks to Evenstar for stepping in during what must've been the middle of the night for her.

I do think most or all of the last hundred or so posts will likely be deleted, as they clearly move well beyond the established ground rules for the thread (which can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here). But that's a rather big task. I need to feed my ankle-biters and put them to bed first. So, for the time being, please protect the thread by ignoring posts that don't adhere to its ground rules, rather than responding.

Rex, you may not post in this thread again.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Thank you Becca, I hope nothing I posted went past the line.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Since it hasn't been brought up lately.

Susan Stec's fundraiser, which I just dropped a dime into: https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/

And Christina Garner's fundraiser, which I just dropped another dime into: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

I think the judge made it quite clear this morning, that donating to a legal fund in California is NOT justification to being named in a cross complaint in California. We'll reach our fund-raising goals to end this debacle. The real message will be in the number of voices, not the amount they donate.


----------



## Becca Mills

Okay folks, locking to commence clean up. Once I'm done, we expect the rehashing of RH's activities to cease entirely. As the site owner has said ...



chc said:


> After further discussion, we've decided to reopen this thread. We ask that it remain _specifically focused_ on Christina's legal case rather than other issues related to Rebecca Hamilton. We have already hosted one lengthy and very difficult thread about RH and we feel that thread was enough.


... and there's only so much time the moderation team can put into any one thread in order to keep it going.

ETA: Reopening. Quite a few posts have been deleted. I salvaged a few things here and there that seemed defensible under the thread's ground rules.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Since it hasn't been brought up lately.
> 
> Susan Stec's fundraiser, which I just dropped a dime into: https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/
> 
> And Christina Garner's fundraiser, which I just dropped another dime into: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community
> 
> I think the judge made it quite clear this morning, that donating to a legal fund in California is NOT justification to being named in a cross complaint in California. We'll reach our fund-raising goals to end this debacle. The real message will be in the number of voices, not the amount they donate.


Boy, I get sick with the flu this week and miss everything. Probably just as well. Thanks Wayne, and anyone who has posted to my gofundme this week. It's greatly appreciated. I can't believe the support from the indie community. It blows me away. Like Christina said, it takes a community. I donated to hers, and will do so again, Lord willing and the creek don't rise, as soon as mine is out of the way. We're getting there. My hearing is scheduled for February 26th. I'll keep you posted. Fingers crossed there is no appeal for you guys.


----------



## thesmallprint

Susan, I just tried to donate. Got a 'try again later' on the paypal page; first time I've seen anything like that message and it might be worth checking that all is well at gogetfunding's end.

I will try again later.


----------



## MonkeyScribe

thesmallprint said:


> Susan, I just tried to donate. Got a 'try again later' on the paypal page; first time I've seen anything like that message and it might be worth checking that all is well at gogetfunding's end.
> 
> I will try again later.


Mine went through just now.


----------



## Susan Stec

thesmallprint said:


> Susan, I just tried to donate. Got a 'try again later' on the paypal page; first time I've seen anything like that message and it might be worth checking that all is well at gogetfunding's end.
> 
> I will try again later.


Sorry to hear this. Please let me know if you continue to have issues and I will contact PayPal. Here is my gofundme site address again - https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/

This thread is hard to follow. Pages jump around, moving from 27 to 1, and going back to catch up on posts is difficult. I'm sure that's due to moderator editing, which I'm very grateful for. They've had their work cut out for them to keep this page open. I'm grateful. Without it, the Indie community would be unable to help fund or give support. Keeping it about Christina and her fight to end this, as well the cross-complaints named, is benificial to keep the community informed that as indie authors we strongly and passionately stick together to stop this kind of frivolous and malicious behavior. I'm in awe by the support and concern displayed on these pages. It is not easy to tenaciously defend our credibility.


----------



## thesmallprint

Got the same again, Susan. I'm in the UK, not that it should make a difference.  Am happy to send direct to you by paypal if you have an email address for that (PM me if you don't want to put it here)

Thanks
Joe


----------



## Susan Stec

thesmallprint said:


> Got the same again, Susan. I'm in the UK, not that it should make a difference. Am happy to send direct to you by paypal if you have an email address for that (PM me if you don't want to put it here)
> 
> Thanks
> Joe


Messaged you Joe. Thank you for asking.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Opposition to Stec's motion to quash. Different arguments than what was used against me and Wayne. In my opinion, it's troubling to me they're now trying to use 3rd party vendor listings as proof of business in California when we all know those are just that bookstore doing business with Amazon and Createspace, not us.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1002oJY64NmRxZ_oz41EA8CtAPqwxZrxW


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

I farted last week and the wind's been out of the east for ten days. By now my fart's in California and people there can smell it. Should I be looking out for another meaningless motion?


----------



## Desert Rose

Am I understanding correctly that the argument is "bookstores in California sell her book, therefore she does business in California"?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Dragovian said:


> Am I understanding correctly that the argument is "bookstores in California sell her book, therefore she does business in California"?


I believe so. I worry the judge will get confused that these listings are somehow signs that we interact directly with these bookstores... it's just a metadata feed from ISBNs. The bookstore says "Oh yeah, we can get that book by that obscure author you know, we can special order it for you...." and more recently, Amazon opening up the 3rd party vendor listings to compete directly with the Amazon links...even though we all know there's no actual book in stock, becuase we've had not sales through Createspace, the company actually doing the business with the independent bookstore.


----------



## Susan Stec

Dragovian said:


> Am I understanding correctly that the argument is "bookstores in California sell her book, therefore she does business in California"?


Yes, that's exactly what it means. The opposition documents to my motion to quash state Amazon's 3rd party sellers are proof that I do business/sales/marketing in California stores. Me personally. You can read the documents here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1002oJY64NmRxZ_oz41EA8CtAPqwxZrxW

As a result, my lawyer is going to have to do new research, just the same as before, to prove this is not credible. I hate to ask but truly I've taken out a personal loan and I'm still going to come up short. Please, if you have anything to spare to help me fight this, I would truly appreciate it.

Here is my gofundme link again: https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/
Thank you so much for all of your support.


----------



## Susan Stec

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> ...and more recently, Amazon opening up the 3rd party vendor listings to compete directly with the Amazon links...even though we all know there's no actual book in stock, becuase we've had not sales through Createspace, the company actually doing the business with the independent bookstore.


Exactly, and I don't sell paperbacks either, and that's what all these 3rd party vendors are buying from amazon. My sales are KU, eBook singles.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

This all sounds very troubling. Thank goodness for all the support you are receiving from fellow authors. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to fight something like this on your own  .


----------



## David VanDyke

Susan Stec said:


> Yes, that's exactly what it means. The opposition documents to my motion to quash state Amazon's 3rd party sellers are proof that I do business/sales/marketing in California stores. Me personally. You can read the documents here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1002oJY64NmRxZ_oz41EA8CtAPqwxZrxW
> 
> As a result, my lawyer is going to have to do new research, just the same as before, to prove this is not credible. I hate to ask but truly I've taken out a personal loan and I'm still going to come up short. Please, if you have anything to spare to help me fight this, I would truly appreciate it.
> 
> Here is my gofundme link again: https://gogetfunding.com/i-am-summoned-in-a-frivolous-lawsuit-over-forum-twitter-and-facebook-posts/
> Thank you so much for all of your support.


Do you have a direct PayPal? My computer security doesn't like gogetfunding, and why pay them a percentage anyway?


----------



## unkownwriter

David VanDyke said:


> Do you have a direct PayPal? My computer security doesn't like gogetfunding, and why pay them a percentage anyway?


I'd rather send you the little I can directly as well, make it go just a tiny bit further.


----------



## Susan Stec

David VanDyke said:


> Do you have a direct PayPal? My computer security doesn't like gogetfunding, and why pay them a percentage anyway?


Morning everyone, 
Here is the PayPal address I'm using on the gofundme account: [email protected]

Thanks for asking, she-la-ti-da and David. And yes Jan, this is very troubling, but that is what was expected. The community support has been a blessing. We couldn't have done as much as we have without Kboards as well.. My hearing is scheduled for the 26th. I don't know if this will postpone it.


----------



## PhoenixS

IANAL, and this is my opinion only:

The judge has so far shown a pretty astute understanding of the nuances of online publishing. 

My take on the three reasons RH's attorneys present to oppose the motion to quash:

1. Contributing to a campaign directed at a California lawsuit has already been ruled to not be enough to establish juridistion. (And reading between the lines of the ruling seems to be a good prompt for an anti-SLAPP suit.)

2. Just about any book with an ISBN can be special ordered by just about any bookstore in the U.S. Also to my mind, another question here would be whether or not any actual transactions have occurred at any of these California-based brick-and-mortar bookstores. I mean, if no sales have occurred at any of these venues (as is more than likely) and no physical goods are being warehoused in California, is the simple act of a distributor listing a book in a nationwide catalog and a bookstore picking up the listing enough to constitute jurisdiction? If that's the case, then every author who has extended distribution would be subject to jurisdiction in just about any U.S. state with independent bookstores. An indie author signs a contract with the national distributor, not with each individual venue to which the distributor distributes.

3. If any posts made in support of one side of the lawsuit are deemed not directed at the forum of California, then it seems that any posts made against the defendants/counter-plaintiffs (Shayna/RH/QBW) who are not California residents/companies would likely also be deemed not to be directed at the forum of California and also not be enough to establish jurisdiction.

I know next to nothing about Susan's involvement save what I've seen publicly posted. Based on what I've seen publicly and on the judge's previous comments, however, I'd think that this judge would deny the opposition and grant the motion to quash. 

If I were a betting person, based on the information I have, I'd just let this opposition ride and let the judge rule.

And on the off-chance he granted jurisdiction, then this seems to be a good opportunity to file an anti-SLAPP, which also offers the ability to recover attorney fees and can put RH's attorney on the hook as well.

In my opinion.


----------



## David VanDyke

Susan Stec said:


> Here is the PayPal address I'm using on the gofundme account: [email protected]


You'll see it come from Reaper Press, my LLC.


----------



## Susan Stec

David VanDyke said:


> You'll see it come from Reaper Press, my LLC.


Thank you so much, David. I've received it. Very grateful for the support.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Phoenix makes a very good point. Right now, you'll either have to spend money to answer the opposition, or not answer it and if the judge says California does have jurisdiction over you (which I highly doubt will happen), then you could probably spend less money on an anti-slapp. I really think this judge WANTS to see an anti-slapp.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Becca Mills

A reminder that this is not the place to discuss legal strategy. Thanks.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

As someone who has had their name, and still has their name on the very public paperwork, the smart approach is to take all bites at the apple that you can. Because if you don't, and on any given sunday things don't go your way in court, you can't get those other chances back. 

I don't fault ANYONE from taking every opportunity to defend themselves on these allegations. Because even an anti-slapp is not guaranteed, not an automatic reimbursement of legal fees. Collection is a whole new expense entirely.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Except for the fact that the defendant AND her counselor are held responsible, jointly and severally, for payment in an anti-slapp. At least that's the way I understand it. I don't see an attorney being able to continue working as an officer of the court, with an outstanding judgement against him.


----------



## Susan Stec

I’m uncomfortable openly discussing any strategy, as we move forward with our motion, in the forum at this point because of the screen shots. However, I’m watching, listening, and if you need me, I’m here. 

Have to thank all of you who have responded to my plea for funds today . I can’t tell you how much it means to me. Sorry I have to ask. I’m not used to that.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

The best of luck to you Susan. I hope your outcome is the same as ours. HUGS


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Dropped another nickle in the kitty, via PP. Whatever I have left after my trip to Miami next Thursday, I'll split between yours and Christina's fundraisers.


----------



## cdk

> the smart approach is to take all bites at the apple that you can. Because if you don't, and on any given sunday things don't go your way in court, you can't get those other chances back.


This, exactly.
It's not an either/or situation. The attorney may charge more initially for filing multiple motions, but he/she can file both a motion to quash and an anti-slapp motion to be heard in court at the same time provided the attorney gives sufficient notice, and you want the anti-slapp motion heard first. You win the anti-slapp, the additional cost was worth it when you recover attorney fees. You don't want your attorney racking up attorney fees with multiple appearances when it can all be done at once. And it helps that you're in a knowledgeable court, or at least a court with a good research attorney assigned to your case.



> I don't see an attorney being able to continue working as an officer of the court, with an outstanding judgement against him.


Being assessed attorney fees has no impact on whether or not an attorney continues to work.
What's interesting about this case is the dynamic between attorney and client. I know next to nothing about civil law and it was fairly obvious even to me the cross-complaint couldn't survive against out-of-state cross-defendants. If I could figure that out, no doubt counsel knew that when he/she filed the cross-complaint. Whether counsel suggested filing the cross-complaint or the client insisted that counsel file the cross-complaint, it tells me two things about this case. First, counsel has no client control if he/she's unable to dissuade the client from filing a frivolous pleading. And by not discouraging the client from filing the cross-complaint, counsel may be content to allow the client to run up attorney fees with a frivolous pleading. Second, whatever shortsighted benefit they hoped to achieve by filing the cross-complaint may ultimately be undone when the court considers punitive damages because the frivolous cross-complaint will be strong evidence of a pattern of malicious behavior meant to intimidate. If the court awards punitive damages and cites the filing of the cross-complaint as one of many reasons, and it turns out it was counsel's advice to file the cross-complaint, a malpractice action may not be far behind.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Not any more

Just an FYI for folks -- this has nothing to do with the legal issues in question, but I do have first-hand knowledge of some of the legal terminology and the workings of the California courts.

My brother and I are involved in a legal situation in California that has so far cost us almost $50,000 to defend against a host of frivolous filings and motions. We have won an anti-SLAPP motion, and the judge awarded us $3,000. He also awarded us $500 for the other side failing to respond on time. That's $3,500 to repay us for $50K in costs, and our lawyer tells us that we will probably have to take the other side back to court if we ever want to collect. That would probably cost more than we would collect.

Make no mistake, the U.S. court systems are set up to make money for the lawyers.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

brkingsolver said:


> Just an FYI for folks -- this has nothing to do with the legal issues in question, but I do have first-hand knowledge of some of the legal terminology and the workings of the California courts.
> 
> My brother and I are involved in a legal situation in California that has so far cost us almost $50,000 to defend against a host of frivolous filings and motions. We have won an anti-SLAPP motion, and the judge awarded us $3,000. He also awarded us $500 for the other side failing to respond on time. That's $3,500 to repay us for $50K in costs, and our lawyer tells us that we will probably have to take the other side back to court if we ever want to collect. That would probably cost more than we would collect.
> 
> Make no mistake, the U.S. court systems are set up to make money for the lawyers.


----------



## Fel Beasley

brkingsolver said:


> Just an FYI for folks -- this has nothing to do with the legal issues in question, but I do have first-hand knowledge of some of the legal terminology and the workings of the California courts.
> 
> My brother and I are involved in a legal situation in California that has so far cost us almost $50,000 to defend against a host of frivolous filings and motions. We have won an anti-SLAPP motion, and the judge awarded us $3,000. He also awarded us $500 for the other side failing to respond on time. That's $3,500 to repay us for $50K in costs, and our lawyer tells us that we will probably have to take the other side back to court if we ever want to collect. That would probably cost more than we would collect.
> 
> Make no mistake, the U.S. court systems are set up to make money for the lawyers.


How freaking awful! Not having protection from someone filing frivolous motions is scary. Means anyone with the means to fund a campaign against anyone they want can do so. They don't have to win to destroy their "opponent". They just have to throw money at a lawyer.

I mean, it's not like this is news, but if even an anti-SLAPP isn't really protection, either, I can't help but wonder if anything is. Guess I shouldn't anger anyone with deep pockets.


----------



## Fel Beasley

There's been something bugging me about the case. If this is off-topic or inappropriate, I apologize and please delete. 

Does anyone know when Amazon actually changed the TOS in regards to multi-author box sets? I'm pretty sure it was before December 2016, but wasn't widely known until sets began being taken down. I'd think ignorance of the TOS wouldn't be a defense, especially for a publisher. 

I do find the strategy tactic changing with Susan to be a bit telling. It's possible that the cross-complaints are being used to refine legal strategy as things go on. 

If these cross-complaints are an intimidation strategy, it's had an opposite effect on some people. Some who have stood back or even supported RH in the past no longer do. It's unlikely to be a comfort for those involved, but there comes a point when words no longer match actions and the benefit of doubt is gone. 

I'm sorry for those involved.


----------



## PhoenixS

HopelessFanatic said:


> Does anyone know when Amazon actually changed the TOS in regards to multi-author box sets? I'm pretty sure it was before December 2016, but wasn't widely known until sets began being taken down. I'd think ignorance of the TOS wouldn't be a defense, especially for a publisher.


That language is there at least as far back as Sept 6, 2015. I'm assuming posting a publicly available image of the Amazon T&Cs is OK in this thread. This is a screenshot from that date captured from the Wayback Machine (archive.org). _(ETA: clicking the image will enbiggen it.)_


----------



## Becca Mills

PhoenixS said:


> I'm assuming posting a publicly available image of the Amazon T&Cs is OK in this thread.


Seems okay to me, but let's allow Phoenix's answer to be the last word on the matter, lest the thread get sidetracked.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Dropped another nickle in the kitty, via PP. Whatever I have left after my trip to Miami next Thursday, I'll split between yours and Christina's fundraisers.


Thanks Wayne. I appreciate it. Enjoy the warm weather. Sometimes I miss it (like today, 5-6 inches last night). Spent over 40 years in central Florida. Not much of a Miami person, though. Love the keys, crystal River, Tampa Bay. Saint Johns. Boaters? Ah-yep. Traded my fishin rods for white tail and a crossbow 10 years ago. Lolol


----------



## Susan Stec

Becca Mills said:


> Seems okay to me, but let's allow Phoenix's answer to be the last word on the matter, lest the thread get sidetracked.


Thanks you, Becca.

Had a sister day today and missed a bunch - big thanks for all the eye openers. Wish I could say more.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Susan Stec said:


> Thanks Wayne. I appreciate it. Enjoy the warm weather. Sometimes I miss it (like today, 5-6 inches last night). Spent over 40 years in central Florida. Not much of a Miami person, though. Love the keys, crystal River, Tampa Bay. Saint Johns. Boaters? Ah-yep. Traded my fishin rods for white tail and a crossbow 10 years ago. Lolol


Happy to help. This is a lot bigger than any one of us and will impact how indie business is conducted in the future.

I'm not big on Miami either. But it's the biggest boat show of the year. And boaters are my target audience. And the official launch of my radio network (I own 5K shares) will be at the boat show on Saturday. I'm being interviewed live, along with my friend Eric Stone, who just recorded a song about my books. So, it's a business trip, albeit a fun one.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Happy to help. This is a lot bigger than any one of us and will impact how indie business is conducted in the future.
> 
> I'm not big on Miami either. But it's the biggest boat show of the year. And boaters are my target audience. And the official launch of my radio network (I own 5K shares) will be at the boat show on Saturday. I'm being interviewed live, along with my friend Eric Stone, who just recorded a song about my books. So, it's a business trip, albeit a fun one.


Ah, yes the Miami boat show. Been there many times... as a dreamer. Good luck with your interview.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

Put in another hundred, Susan. Best of luck, and I’m so sorry this has happened.


----------



## Susan Stec

Usedtoposthere said:


> Put in another hundred, Susan. Best of luck, and I'm so sorry this has happened.


. Thank you so much.

I will update everyone as soon as I can.


----------



## Susan Stec

Emailed my lawyer this morning with answers to his requests. Our response should be public on Friday. Feel free to post it here, discuss it, share it. None of us likes personal becoming public, but it is what it is. I’m good with that. 

Haven’t received additional charges for this quash - will update as soon as know. I  appreciate the continued support. And when my part is over, any unused portion will be put back in the fold.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

I'm just catching up. I'm sorry to see so many indies being dragged into this. Makes my stomach churn. I wish I could help financially! *hugs*


----------



## Susan Stec

elizabethbarone said:


> I'm just catching up. I'm sorry to see so many indies being dragged into this. Makes my stomach churn. I wish I could help financially! *hugs*


The kind words are appreciated. It's good to know others out there care. I'll accept that hug, and return it.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Susan Stec said:


> The kind words are appreciated. It's good to know others out there care. I'll accept that hug, and return it.


<333


----------



## Susan Stec

I’ll be putting up our response to their quash sometime today.  But I’d like to wait until I’m sure my lawyer has presented it to the court. It’s in two parts.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Susan Stec said:


> I'll be putting up our response to their quash sometime today. But I'd like to wait until I'm sure my lawyer has presented it to the court. It's in two parts.


Will look forward to seeing this next installment.


----------



## Susan Stec

Sorry guys, I was told not to post the response here until it is either rulled on by the judge or public record. I have decided to err on the side of caution. Our hearing is scheduled for the 26th, and I will post it then or sooner if the judge rules on it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Susan Stec said:


> Sorry guys, I was told not to post the response here until it is either rulled on by the judge or public record. I have decided to err on the side of caution. Our hearing is scheduled for the 26th, and I will post it then or sooner if the judge rules on it.


Have diarised the 26th


----------



## Susan Stec

Just a quick note, because so many have asked, to let everyone know that I am pleased after reading the non public comments and recommendation from the judge in a bench memo my lawyer emailed me Monday. I can’t share the information, but hopefully the recommendation will be a final ruling Monday.  I’ve been advised to wait until it’s public. 

If you see the ruling before I get a chance to post, feel free to drop the link here and open discussions. I have no problem with that. 

Update: looks like her attorneys submitted on the tentative—meaning the Judge’s ruling in our favor should be entered on Monday without argument.  I’ll post a link on Monday.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Looking forward to reading the post.


----------



## unkownwriter

Crossing my fingers for you Susan!


----------



## inconsequential

Any new news on the ruling for Susan?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

inconsequential said:


> Any new news on the ruling for Susan?


Rebecca's attorney submitted to the judge's tentative ruling granting Susan's motion to quash. That means the tentative ruling will stand and Susan is dismissed from the case.


----------



## inconsequential

Ditto that -- excellent news!


----------



## unkownwriter

Yay for Susan!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Good news.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Awesome!


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> Rebecca's attorney submitted to the judge's tentative ruling granting Susan's motion to quash. That means the tentative ruling will stand and Susan is dismissed from the case.


Yes, he did, and "GRANTED" is next to my court date on the lacourt page. So it's final in this case. Yay! Thank you Christina, and everyone that responded on the page. Here are my lawyer's responses to their quash. And as soon as the judge's document pops, I'll add it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/psi46u90hfhmuny/2970045%20-%20Objection%20to%20Declaration%20ISO%20of%20Opp%20to%20MTQ.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/01to9xgd8i2sdj6/LADOCS01-%232970737-v1-Stec-Reply-to-Opp-to-MTQ.pdf?dl=0

Now we're waiting for a response from my lawyer in regards to them serving Jeni. We filed together. We'll keep you posted there.

One or two more (not sure who has already filed) Christina, and then it's all about you.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Will this pretty much says it all:

"The point is, this cross-complaint is troubling because it smacks of revenge. P sued D, X-D then helped P, so D sued them too. Does this court take jurisdiction over every person who lends a hand to a party in a case? What happens if some third party now helps D? Will there be a third cross-complaint for defamation, hauling even more authors before this court for a resolution of an even bigger Internet squabble? This has to end somewhere; that end should be here."

I'm grateful the judge and his clerk appear to see this cross complaint for what it is, and I'm grateful that so far each person has been released from the responsibility of this case.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> Will this pretty much says it all:
> 
> I'm grateful the judge and his clerk appear to see this cross complaint for what it is, and I'm grateful that so far each person has been released from the responsibility of this case.


Me too Christina, and I'm very eager to see the outcome of the next one. I'm rooting for him.

This is my favorite: "D/X-C first argues that X-D Stec's book sales in California subject her to general jurisdiction here. This argument need not detain the court for long. D/X-C cites no factually on-point authority suggesting that an author is subject to general jurisdiction wherever her books are sold. In the case of the paperback writer, the impact of such a rule would be frankly bone-chilling. After carefully crafting her book (based on a novel by a man named Lear, no doubt) of a thousand pages (give or take a few), and making a million for Amazon sending copies in the daily mail, she could spend her break defending against lawsuits from Hawaii to Maine."


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Susan Stec said:


> Yes, he did, and "GRANTED" is next to my court date on the lacourt page. So it's final in this case. Yay! Thank you Christina, and everyone that responded on the page. Here are my lawyer's responses to their quash. And as soon as the judge's document pops, I'll add it.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/psi46u90hfhmuny/2970045%20-%20Objection%20to%20Declaration%20ISO%20of%20Opp%20to%20MTQ.pdf?dl=0
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/01to9xgd8i2sdj6/LADOCS01-%232970737-v1-Stec-Reply-to-Opp-to-MTQ.pdf?dl=0
> 
> Now we're waiting for a response from my lawyer in regards to them serving Jeni. We filed together. We'll keep you posted there.
> 
> One or two more (not sure who has already filed) Christina, and then it's all about you.


I don't know how many people read these judgments, but it has given your books a bit of publicity. Let us know if there is a sudden splurge in sales.


----------



## EllieDee

> I don't know how many people read these judgments, but it has given your books a bit of publicity. Let us know if there is a sudden splurge in sales.


That would be a silver lining, for sure!


----------



## unkownwriter

Wow, that judge is on top of things! What a clear and reasonable-thinking person he is. I'm sending him good energy so he can keep his strength throughout this process.


----------



## 39416

Gee, do you think we should warn the judge about quoting song lyrics? 

(For anyone too young to know, the judge was quoting from the Beatles' "Paperback Writer.")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvkICbTZIQ


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## 91831

I think that I'm missing something... where are the judges comments?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

loraininflorida said:


> Gee, do you think we should warn the judge about quoting song lyrics?
> 
> (For anyone too young to know, the judge was quoting from the Beatles' "Paperback Writer.")
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvkICbTZIQ


Does the Fair Use doctrine cover legal decisions? Hmmmm... that's a very good question. LOL.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Congrats, Susan! It is good to see the wheels of justice working in a positive manner. It sure seems like the Judge is dedicated to wading through the nonsense and distractions to get to the bottom of the true matter at hand.

On another note, who filed an anti-SLAPP? 


> FUTURE HEARINGS
> Case Information | Register of Actions | Future Hearings | Party Information | Documents Filed | Proceedings Held
> 
> *03/14/2018 at 08:32 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
> Motion-Anti-SLAPP*
> 
> 06/18/2018 at 08:31 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
> Conference-Post Mediation Status(2. FURTHER S/C PER CRC 3.723)
> 
> 09/20/2018 at 08:31 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
> Final Status Conference
> 
> 10/03/2018 at 09:30 am in Department 46 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
> Court Trial - Short Cause


from http://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?casetype=civil
Case number: BC664530


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

Bill did, he was one of the authors named presumably because he was a California resident, there isn't the ability to quash based on improper venue if you live in California. Also, naming some California residents in the cross-complaint prevented any of us named from asking it to be moved to federal court which is what my lawyer wanted to do initially, until he realized we couldn't do that because there were California residents named too.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Bill did, he was one of the authors named presumably because he was a California resident, there isn't the ability to quash based on improper venue if you live in California. Also, naming some California residents in the cross-complaint prevented any of us named from asking it to be moved to federal court which is what my lawyer wanted to do initially, until he realized we couldn't do that because there were California residents named too.


Thanks for explaining that, Elizabeth  That makes a lot of sense.

What would have been the benefit of moving it to Federal Court? I do recall seeing RH claim that her lawyer was going to have Christina's case moved to Federal Court and that her lawyer "knew what he is doing". This was the same lawyer that she said advised her laws were broken when Christina's lawyers served her and that proper procedures were not followed when the case was filed. Does anyone know if the court record listing the attorneys is a complete record of all the attorneys on the case? Because it seems strange that Rh was making statements early on about what her lawyer allegedly said, but it doesn't seem like any of that is actually in line with how her lawyer has proceeded in the case. I wonder if she's had an attorney change since the time that she made those statements.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West

No attorney change I am aware of. When all of us got named as cross complaints the game changed so to speak. Federal laws, according my lawyer, are much tougher on anti-slapp. 

All of that is moot though and it was just a possible strategy early on when my lawyer and I were trying to get an idea on what the best course of action was. Even if we could have requested a move to federal court, I don't know that we would have or that it would have been granted. And it is more complicated because what might have been best for me might not be best for others.... These are all welcome consequences I am sure of naming all of us in the first place. 

Bottom line from my limited experience... This is all an exercise in who has the deepest pockets. As your publishing company grows, keep money aside for legal fees. For sure.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> No attorney change I am aware of. When all of us got named as cross complaints the game changed so to speak. Federal laws, according my lawyer, are much tougher on anti-slapp.
> 
> All of that is moot though and it was just a possible strategy early on when my lawyer and I were trying to get an idea on what the best course of action was. Even if we could have requested a move to federal court, I don't know that we would have or that it would have been granted. And it is more complicated because what might have been best for me might not be best for others.... These are all welcome consequences I am sure of naming all of us in the first place.


Gotcha, thank you.



> Bottom line from my limited experience... This is all an exercise in who has the deepest pockets. As your publishing company grows, keep money aside for legal fees. For sure.


Also thank you...and very good advice.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

In regards to Bill's anti-slapp, I can see the judge's expression when the clerk reads the names of the litigants. I have a feeling his will be the last nail in the coffin.

After that, we just dig a hole with Christina's attorney at the controls of a big old back hoe, then push the box in and cover it up.


----------



## Susan Stec

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I don't know how many people read these judgments, but it has given your books a bit of publicity. Let us know if there is a sudden splurge in sales.


Well, that would be amazing! I need to get back to it. I've been sorely neglecting my business for the last 7 months. But I'm good now.


----------



## Susan Stec

loraininflorida said:


> Gee, do you think we should warn the judge about quoting song lyrics?
> 
> (For anyone too young to know, the judge was quoting from the Beatles' "Paperback Writer.")
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvkICbTZIQ


Hahaha, totally got that, being the fan that I am. And loved it.


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> In regards to Bill's anti-slapp, I can see the judge's expression when the clerk reads the names of the litigants. I have a feeling his will be the last nail in the coffin.
> 
> After that, we just dig a hole with Christina's attorney at the controls of a big old back hoe, then push the box in and cover it up.


I have to agree with you on this one, Wayne. I think RH and her lawyer paved the way for Bill with the preceding cases. I would think winning this will set a precedent. Which may be helpful should she (or anyone) ) move this out of CA and into another states.

WasAnn, in regards to your wish the judge had addressed the issue about RH doing this to motivate fear for anyone to make or stop making contributions, and/or to discourage anyone from speaking out - the judge did address the contribution issue in both cases. We are good. In fact we can call it "grocery money. So, keep those dollars rolling in for Christina. But he couldn't or shouldn't have addressed the motive of bullying others from speaking out, because so far the cases have been on venue, not her motivation in doing all of that as a defense. However, I'd bet my incisors that's going to be part of Bill's deal.

_Edited. Evenstar. Contact me any questions_


----------



## thesmallprint

Glad to hear the good news, Susan. Let's hope it's the same for everyone from here on in.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Susan Stec said:


> I have to agree with you on this one, Wayne. I think RH and her lawyer paved the way for Bill with the preceding cases. I would think winning this will set a precedent. Which may be helpful should she (or anyone) ) move this out of CA and into another states.
> 
> WasAnn, in regards to your wish the judge had addressed the issue about RH doing this to motivate fear for anyone to make or stop making contributions, and/or to discourage anyone from speaking out - the judge did address the contribution issue in both cases. We are good. In fact we can call it "grocery money. So, keep those dollars rolling in for Christina. But he couldn't or shouldn't have addressed the motive of bullying others from speaking out, because so far the cases have been on venue, not her motivation in doing all of that as a defense. However, I'd bet my incisors that's going to be part of Bill's deal.


This judge is a sharp guy and he seems to like to dig down to the roots to find the compelling factors behind things, and not just what's in evidence. I wouldn't be at all surprised, what with the number of references to KB that are in evidence, that he hasn't taken a stroll through this very thread.

Hi Judge! 

_Modified quoted post. Evenstar_


----------



## Susan Stec

Wayne Stinnett said:


> This judge is a sharp guy and he seems to like to dig down to the roots to find the compelling factors behind things, and not just what's in evidence. I wouldn't be at all surprised, what with the number of references to KB that are in evidence, that he hasn't taken a stroll through this very thread.
> 
> Hi Judge!


I was thinking the same thing  nothing wrong with that. This has been an education process. No?


----------



## unkownwriter

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If he decided to publish his memoirs, he can come here for help! lol


Yep. Loads of good advice to be had, and all for free.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone--very good news.

I just received notice from my attorney that Rebecca's attorney has dismissed all of the remaining cross-defendants. 

All that exists now is my case against Shana Raywood, (dba Rebecca hamilton/QBW Services LLC) for breach of contract and defamation and her countersuit against me for a quarter million dollars backed up by baseless claims.

I am so very grateful to the judge for his plain-speaking and no-nonsense rulings which left no doubt he saw this counterclaim as the revenge filing it was. Congrats to all who no longer need to worry about this. 

Thanks to everyone for your support of all those caught in the crossfire of this and for your continued support of me and this case.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

ChristinaGarner said:


> her countersuit against me for a quarter million dollars


Shut the front door. I had no idea it was THIS much. Holy corgis in the snow. That is some [redacted] brass [redacted].


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Krista D. Ball said:


> That is some [redacted] brass [redacted].


You've said it better than I could have.


----------



## 91831

Ahhh, I'm made up for you all and for you too, Christina for getting such an awesome judge. I am sorry that some of you have had to spend so much to get to his point.  As soon as I get some more pennies, I'll add what I can to the pot.

Does that mean that the Anti-Slap that Bill(?) was doing is now gone too?
(Sorry I'm not familiar with the US system).


----------



## William Meikle

evdarcy said:


> Ahhh, I'm made up for you all and for you too, Christina for getting such an awesome judge. I am sorry that some of you have had to spend so much to get to his point. As soon as I get some more pennies, I'll add what I can to the pot.
> 
> Does that mean that the Anti-Slap that Bill(?) was doing is now gone too?
> (Sorry I'm not familiar with the US system).


Maybe also explain that 'made up" means happy where we come from, and is not something to do with mascara and lipstick as one editor thought when I used it in a story


----------



## 91831

williammeikle said:


> Maybe also explain that 'made up" means happy where we come from, and is not something to do with mascara and lipstick as one editor thought when I used it in a story


BAhahah! Good point.

Correction: I'm so happy for you guys!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

evdarcy said:


> Does that mean that the Anti-Slap that Bill(?) was doing is now gone too?
> (Sorry I'm not familiar with the US system).


I wouldn't think you can have an anti-SLAPP against a case that doesn't exist, but any of the former defendants could pursue recouping their legal fees and likely have a decent case. But would it be worth it? Probably not for most.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lovely news to read just as I was about to switch off my computer.
Looking forward to the next installment.


----------



## Fel Beasley

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone--very good news.
> 
> I just received notice from my attorney that Rebecca's attorney has dismissed all of the remaining cross-defendants.
> 
> All that exists now is my case against Shana Raywood, (dba Rebecca hamilton/QBW Services LLC) for breach of contract and defamation and her countersuit against me for a quarter million dollars backed up by baseless claims.
> 
> I am so very grateful to the judge for his plain-speaking and no-nonsense rulings which left no doubt he saw this counterclaim as the revenge filing it was. Congrats to all who no longer need to worry about this.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your support of all those caught in the crossfire of this and for your continued support of me and this case.


Glad to hear that the rest of the cross-defendants won't have to continue with this. Though, I'm sure lawyers have already been paid. It's done damage but I don't think it had the effect that was intended.

I was confused at first why the counter-suit was still happening against you, Christina, since the evidence for it was pretty much the same as against the other cross-defendants. I guess since they don't have to worry about proving jurisdiction, they are continuing to pursue. Pretty telling they dropped the case against Bill considering he's a resident.

I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but could you file an anti-SLAPP for the counter-suit? Or is it different because of the original case? (Feel free not to answer if it's better not to right now.)


----------



## ChristinaGarner

HopelessFanatic said:


> Glad to hear that the rest of the cross-defendants won't have to continue with this. Though, I'm sure lawyers have already been paid. It's done damage but I don't think it had the effect that was intended.
> 
> I was confused at first why the counter-suit was still happening against you, Christina, since the evidence for it was pretty much the same as against the other cross-defendants. I guess since they don't have to worry about proving jurisdiction, they are continuing to pursue. Pretty telling they dropped the case against Bill considering he's a resident.
> 
> I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but could you file an anti-SLAPP for the counter-suit? Or is it different because of the original case? (Feel free not to answer if it's better not to right now.)


I assume she's keeping the case against me thinking to use it as leverage, however it's baseless no matter who it's against.

And yes, I can definitely file an anti-SLAPP. Stay tuned.


----------



## PhoenixS

ChristinaGarner said:


> I wouldn't think you can have an anti-SLAPP against a case that doesn't exist, but any of the former defendants could pursue recouping their legal fees and likely have a decent case. But would it be worth it? Probably not for most.


This, at least, seems to be precedent for terming the "prevailing party" in a CA [_ETA for clarity:_ anti-]slapp suit specifically as the defendant of the original suit should the plaintiff file a dismissal, if the plaintiff hasn't been otherwise compensated for their claims. I am still not a lawyer, and there may well be later cases, but this one seems pretty clear to this layman as far as determining a prevailing party. (The amount awarded question appears to be a separate motion filed by the original plaintiff in response to the original award of attorney fees to the defendant after the plaintiff moved to dismiss.)

https://www.casp.net/california-anti-slapp-first-amendment-law-resources/caselaw/california-courts-of-appeal-cases/coltrain-v-shewalter/

I have no idea if there's recoupment possibility for Bill or not. Since he's already filed the anti-slapp, this would seem to suggest there is. Maybe some of the lawyers here could weigh in...?


----------



## 39416

With the caveat that I do not know California law, an attorney can only dismiss a claim they have filed. An attorney cannot dismiss a claim somebody else has filed, regardless if it's [just] a counterclaim. A counterclaimant can continue on with their claim if they choose to do so. Again --I don't know California law, or California anti-slapp law. My experience however is that the counterclaimant just usually wants the whole thing to end, so they do not usually choose to continue.

Unless they are _really_ p*ssed.


----------



## unkownwriter

So happy to read this update, Christina! Glad the other folks dragged into this no longer have to worry, but also sad that you are still in this mess. I am confident you will prevail, stay strong.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone--very good news.
> 
> I just received notice from my attorney that Rebecca's attorney has dismissed all of the remaining cross-defendants.
> 
> All that exists now is my case against Shana Raywood, (dba Rebecca hamilton/QBW Services LLC) for breach of contract and defamation and her countersuit against me for a quarter million dollars backed up by baseless claims.
> 
> I am so very grateful to the judge for his plain-speaking and no-nonsense rulings which left no doubt he saw this counterclaim as the revenge filing it was. Congrats to all who no longer need to worry about this.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your support of all those caught in the crossfire of this and for your continued support of me and this case.


Oh yay! I haven't heard anything from my lawyer yet, but I'll email him to verify. Thanks for the news Christina. I'll post when I get a confirmation.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Susan Stec said:


> Oh yay! I haven't heard anything from my lawyer yet, but I'll email him to verify. Thanks for the news Christina. I'll post when I get a confirmation.


You've been dismissed from the case already so this applies to Jeni, Perry, and Bill.


----------



## Susan Stec

Krista D. Ball said:


> Shut the front door. I had no idea it was THIS much. Holy corgis in the snow. That is some [redacted] brass [redacted].


Heck, some were a combination of monitory charges that added up to double.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> I wouldn't think you can have an anti-SLAPP against a case that doesn't exist, but any of the former defendants could pursue recouping their legal fees and likely have a decent case. But would it be worth it? Probably not for most.


Your lawyer said "remaining" right? Bill would not be remaining, he's been filed against, so I would think there is still an open cast there, and also with anyone served. But again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm waiting word from Gary to respond.


ChristinaGarner said:


> I assume she's keeping the case against me thinking to use it as leverage, however it's baseless no matter who it's against.
> 
> And yes, I can definitely file an anti-SLAPP. Stay tuned.


That would be a blessing.

Edit: Sorry Christina, I didn't see your comment about me being dismissed and only Jeni, Bill and Perry remain. Jeni and I filed together and I was footing the bill, so if Jeni is indeed dismissed as well, it's reason to celebrate a second time.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> You've been dismissed from the case already so this applies to Jeni, Perry, and Bill.


There is nothing filed yet on LAcourts. But sometimes it takes a couple of days. I still question whether they can dismiss an already ongoing case. Would it be ongoing if it's been served, a date set, and a lawyer hired? Anyone?


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

My guess is that her attorney sees the writing on the wall. Bill's anti-slapp will cause the attorney to be on the hook for legal fees, when the judge finds in his favor, and there's little doubt that he won't. the judge practically begged for someone to (anti-) slapp her.

If what Loraine says is correct, I really hope Bill will proceed. In for a penny in for a pound.


----------



## Susan Stec

I’m thinking the same. I’d like to see him take it home, but like Christina said, she can anti slapp too. Do we know if any other cross complainants have been served?


----------



## Susan Stec

Me and my daughter are definitely dismissed from Christina’s case. And my lawyer just told me he has an office here in MI should I ever need his services again. This is good.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Susan Stec said:


> Me and my daughter are definitely dismissed from Christina's case. And my lawyer just told me he has an office here in MI should I ever need his services again. This is good.


Pleased to hear that.


----------



## unkownwriter

Wayne Stinnett said:


> My guess is that her attorney sees the writing on the wall. Bill's anti-slapp will cause the attorney to be on the hook for legal fees, when the judge finds in his favor, and there's little doubt that he won't. the judge practically begged for someone to (anti-) slapp her.
> 
> If what Loraine says is correct, I really hope Bill will proceed. In for a penny in for a pound.


I'm with Wayne.


----------



## Susan Stec

Me, Wayne, Elizabeth, and Bill were named on this dismissal letters sent to all lawyers. And Jeni was dismissed "without prejudice" voluntarily. I did not see anything about dismissing the remainder of the 21 slots they have open on Christina's case for Cross complainants. Maybe Christina's lawyer received one more detailed. But really, this is bogus. Me, Wayne, and Elizabeth are dismissed for VENUE in CA. Jeni's dismissal in CA is without prejudice, and can be opened again at any time. I'm thinking this was elicited for the sole purpose of discouraging Bill. I may be wrong.

Here's the dismissal. You judge. Pun intended.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/78bjms0d2np8k4z/3-2-2018.pdf?dl=0


----------



## DaniO

I don't really understand this. How does Shana's lawyer ask to dismiss cases when the judge has already decided not to proceed based on venue for Wayne, Susan and Elizabeth?


----------



## Fel Beasley

carrie 123 said:


> I don't really understand this. How does Shana's lawyer ask to dismiss cases when the judge has already decided not to proceed based on venue for Wayne, Susan and Elizabeth?


Because each case is separate for each of the named cross-defendants. That's why the changed tactic against Susan happened. Each needs to be in front of the judge individually, especially when it comes to jurisdiction.

Since one of the cross-defendants resides in California, they wouldn't be able to dismiss the case based on jurisdiction. This may have been intentional, but it looks like it didn't work in the favor of the cross-plaintiff. If the lawyer hadn't dropped it, the rest of the cross-defendants would have had to prove lack of jurisdiction or defend against the claims.

I don't know if that answers your question.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone--very good news.
> 
> I just received notice from my attorney that Rebecca's attorney has dismissed all of the remaining cross-defendants.
> 
> All that exists now is my case against Shana Raywood, (dba Rebecca hamilton/QBW Services LLC) for breach of contract and defamation and her countersuit against me for a quarter million dollars backed up by baseless claims.
> 
> I am so very grateful to the judge for his plain-speaking and no-nonsense rulings which left no doubt he saw this counterclaim as the revenge filing it was. Congrats to all who no longer need to worry about this.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your support of all those caught in the crossfire of this and for your continued support of me and this case.


This is fantastic news. I'm sorry this is still dragging on, but hopefully now it can come to a swift and just conclusion.


----------



## Victoria Wright

Glad things are settling down for some of the people that have been attacked in this case. To those still in it, I'm rooting for you.

And since it seems to have been buried by a couple of pages, I dug out the link to Christina's fundraiser again -- https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

Hopefully someone can follow up with her Paypal details again (I'm about to log and didn't see them off hand).


----------



## Susan Stec

Victoria Wright said:


> Glad things are settling down for some of the people that have been attacked in this case. To those still in it, I'm rooting for you.
> 
> And since it seems to have been buried by a couple of pages, I dug out the link to Christina's fundraiser again -- https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community
> 
> Hopefully someone can follow up with her Paypal details again (I'm about to log and didn't see them off hand).


Haven't seen much action here for a few days - but I am checking for any news.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Wayne Stinnett said:


> This is a lot bigger than any one of us and will impact how indie business is conducted in the future.


Just a reminder that this case is still ongoing and needs the support of the community. Glad to see those who have been dismissed have received justice, but let's not forget this is far from over. https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

...and just a snippet of why this is ongoing:


> I started this fundraiser at the urging of several community members who wanted to see these practices stopped. It's not about one contract; it's about promoters exploiting loopholes and convincing authors that there are no consequences to unethical behavior. It's about intimidation and fear tactics.
> 
> Despite the toll this has taken, I am still ready and willing to fight this fight. We have an excellent case with irrefutable proof and a strong witness list. All of the evidence will be available in the trial documents, and I will continue to update the community. But there are several ways to delay a case, and I now expect to confront them all. Every response, every filing has a cost which is why I have reopened this funding page.
> 
> I was inspired and heartened by the outpouring of support I've received so far and was hesitant to ask for more, but a fellow author reminded me what I'd named this fundraiser, and it gave me the resolve I needed.
> 
> It really does take a community. From the depths of my heart, thank you for your support.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

EB said:


> Just a reminder that this case is still ongoing and needs the support of the community. Glad to see those who have been dismissed have received justice, but let's not forget this is far from over. https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


Thanks, EB. I didn't want to solicit donations while others were also fighting. That's part of the reason I've been quiet lately. I'm actually going to be updating the funding page with the newer developments of the case very soon so folks will know what's been happening. If you feel called to make a donation, thank you in advance. It's been an expensive few months and every dollar helps. I'm also grateful for the kind words, both public and private. Your support makes all the difference.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks, EB. I didn't want to solicit donations while others were also fighting. That's part of the reason I've been quiet lately. I'm actually going to be updating the funding page with the newer developments of the case very soon so folks will know what's been happening.


100% behind you, Christina. Will look for the updates & please hang in there.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

EB said:


> 100% behind you, Christina. Will look for the updates & please hang in there.


Thanks, EB. I appreciate your fearlessness and continued support. And thanks to those who contributed today--it helps more than you know.

I've updated the fundraising page. You can read it here: http://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

For those who feel comfortable, you can also donate directly via PayPal Friends & Family which avoids fees. My PayPal address is christina(at)christinagarner.com. I always update the funding page with donations received this way, listing them as anonymous unless given express permission to use the contributor's name.

I know this has gone on longer than any of us expected--believe me when I say it frustrates me too. Thank you for sticking by me; it's made all the difference.


----------



## Not any more

Wayne Stinnett said:


> My guess is that her attorney sees the writing on the wall. Bill's anti-slapp will cause the attorney to be on the hook for legal fees, when the judge finds in his favor, and there's little doubt that he won't. the judge practically begged for someone to (anti-) slapp her.
> 
> If what Loraine says is correct, I really hope Bill will proceed. In for a penny in for a pound.


While I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I thought I might inject a little insight concerning an anti-slapp judgement in California. My brother and I were granted an anti-slapp judgement last year in a case we have going on there. We subsequently were granted an additional monetary award as a sanction for further actions by our legal opponent. We've seen none of the money, and have been informed that we will probably have to file further legal motions to try and collect the money. Based on the rates attorneys charge, we'll probably never see the money because the legal fees would be higher than the judgments.

The one thing the judgments have given us is a legitimate excuse to just say no to anything the opposition tries to do. We say, "Pay us, and then we'll talk."

1.5 years and $40,000 down the drain for a case that has no legal basis whatsoever. The legal system in this country is truly broken.


----------



## Nicholas Erik

Donated.

Nick


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Nicholas Erik said:


> Donated.
> 
> Nick


Thanks, Nick. I appreciate your continued support.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

brkingsolver said:


> While I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I thought I might inject a little insight concerning an anti-slapp judgement in California. My brother and I were granted an anti-slapp judgement last year in a case we have going on there. We subsequently were granted an additional monetary award as a sanction for further actions by our legal opponent. We've seen none of the money, and have been informed that we will probably have to file further legal motions to try and collect the money. Based on the rates attorneys charge, we'll probably never see the money because the legal fees would be higher than the judgments.
> 
> The one thing the judgments have given us is a legitimate excuse to just say no to anything the opposition tries to do. We say, "Pay us, and then we'll talk."
> 
> 1.5 years and $40,000 down the drain for a case that has no legal basis whatsoever. The legal system in this country is truly broken.


This is quite frightening . So sorry you had to go through all that .


----------



## 41419

I've just donated again, and was very happy to do so. For a variety of reasons, I wasn't in a position to donate over the last few months - which unfortunately coincided with the countersuits against everyone else. I would have been happy to donate to your funds also but the timing was just bad. 

I've also posted about the case. I had to take the unusual step of closing comments - which bugs me more than you can know - but hopefully it will bring in a dollar or two for Christina.

And if anyone other than Christina is still facing legal actions arising from this matter, please let me know and I'll do what I can to support those people also.

Here's the post, if anyone wants something to point people towards. I really wish I could have gone into minute detail about Rebecca Hamilton's business practices, what she has done to my friends, and what I think of her personally, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

Post:


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Just upped the ante a bit. This craziness has gone on far too long.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

brkingsolver said:


> While I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I thought I might inject a little insight concerning an anti-slapp judgement in California. My brother and I were granted an anti-slapp judgement last year in a case we have going on there. We subsequently were granted an additional monetary award as a sanction for further actions by our legal opponent. We've seen none of the money, and have been informed that we will probably have to file further legal motions to try and collect the money. Based on the rates attorneys charge, we'll probably never see the money because the legal fees would be higher than the judgments.
> 
> The one thing the judgments have given us is a legitimate excuse to just say no to anything the opposition tries to do. We say, "Pay us, and then we'll talk."
> 
> 1.5 years and $40,000 down the drain for a case that has no legal basis whatsoever. The legal system in this country is truly broken.


Oh man. I'm so, so sorry that happened to you. I wish there was a way to get those judgments enforced without putting you out further.

On the plus side, every case is different. The judge in Christina's case seems to have a good head on their shoulders, so I really do think this will have a good outcome for both Christina and the community. It'll just take a while to get there.

Hang in there, Christina.



dgaughran said:


> I've just donated again, and was very happy to do so. For a variety of reasons, I wasn't in a position to donate over the last few months - which unfortunately coincided with the countersuits against everyone else. I would have been happy to donate to your funds also but the timing was just bad.
> 
> I've also posted about the case. I had to take the unusual step of closing comments - which bugs me more than you can know - but hopefully it will bring in a dollar or two for Christina.
> 
> And if anyone other than Christina is still facing legal actions arising from this matter, please let me know and I'll do what I can to support those people also.
> 
> Here's the post, if anyone wants something to point people towards. I really wish I could have gone into minute detail about Rebecca Hamilton's business practices, what she has done to my friends, and what I think of her personally, but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.
> 
> Post: https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/please-help-an-author-fight-this-crazy-court-case/


Based on my experiences with her, I'm sure we have similar feelings, David. I'm also now suspicious of any new promotional company that pops up, especially if any of her (former) associates are involved with it. Which is a shame.

Sharing your post!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Just upped the ante a bit. This craziness has gone on far too long.


Wayne, I continue to be humbled by your generosity, especially after it caused you to be sued for absolutely no reason. Most would have quietly slipped away and I wouldn't have blamed them. Please know you have my deep gratitude.

David, thank you so much for your blog post. I know in this climate it's risky just to tell the truth, and that's really a shame. Thanks for standing up anyway--as you so often do.

Thanks for the kind words, Elizabeth, and for sharing David's post. It really helps, and I'm grateful.


----------



## Monique

Happy to add to the pot. Wish it could be more. So proud of you, Christina, and moved by the generosity and character of the community in their support of her.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18

brkingsolver said:


> We've seen none of the money, and have been informed that we will probably have to file further legal motions to try and collect the money.


Just out of curiosity, aren't there enforcement actions you could take that wouldn't cost a fortune? Filing liens on property owned by those owing comes to mind. I'm not a lawyer but worked for law firms all my working years and saw a lot of liens on personal and real property filed for that kind of reason here in Colorado.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Monique said:


> Happy to add to the pot. Wish it could be more. So proud of you, Christina, and moved by the generosity and character of the community in their support of her.


I'm equally moved by the generosity of the community and very grateful. Thank you, Monique.


----------



## Not any more

elizabethbarone said:


> Oh man. I'm so, so sorry that happened to you. I wish there was a way to get those judgments enforced without putting you out further.
> 
> On the plus side, every case is different. The judge in Christina's case seems to have a good head on their shoulders, so I really do think this will have a good outcome for both Christina and the community. It'll just take a while to get there.
> 
> Hang in there, Christina.


What our lawyer has told us is that a legal judgement isn't self-enforcing. Just because we have the judgement, if the other side doesn't pay, you have to drag them into court again, and sometimes more than once. Until you get a court judgement that actually attaches their property or bank account, or something like that, a civil award is just a piece of paper. That said, it's a whole lot better to be on the winning side.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks,

A reminder that this thread is about the lawsuits. Per the site owner:



chc said:


> After further discussion, we've decided to reopen this thread. We ask that it remain _specifically focused_ on Christina's legal case rather than other issues related to Rebecca Hamilton. We have already hosted one lengthy and very difficult thread about RH and we feel that thread was enough.


We're reviewing recent threads and posts across the forum. If you have any questions, please PM us.

Betsy
KB Admin


----------



## MyraScott

Can you tell us anything about what happens next?  Any new filings or official dates for the next action? 

(Removed question about screenshots as you answered it just above!)


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> Can you tell us anything about what happens next? Any new filings or information?
> 
> There were a lot of screenshots posted showing TOS violations last night that reinforce how things have been run- do these strengthen your case? Can they be entered as evidence?


My understanding is that discovery is only officially entered as evidence if one of the other side uses it as an exhibit. I turned over thousands of screenshots; I'm unsure how many will become evidence for either side.

I sadly don't have an update I can share at this time, but I'll say that I want what I've always wanted, a fair settlement and a full retraction. I'd like to put this behind me sooner than later, but will do what's necessary to clear my name. I'm humbled and grateful for the continued support from the community. It's allowed me to press on to do just that.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

I have to say that I admire the work of the Plaintiff's legal team. IMO, they've stuck to the facts of the case and haven't been distracted or dissuaded by the maneuverings. Whatever the legal justification of it is (which I know, this is how this civil stuff goes), from a purely observational point it just makes me wonder what the Defense doesn't want to come out. The Defense filed suits against authors who contributed to a go fund me, or who verbalized support for the Plaintiff online; I don't see the Plaintiff filing suit against any of the Defendant's supporters or donators, or doing anything to silence them. I don't see the Plaintiff's supporters emailing _employers_ of those who support the Defendant, but I do observe the Defendant's supporters doing that very thing.

I know there has been discussion of posts being deleted. I've seen it happen on both sides. The fact is that we are all playing in someone else's playground when we are online. If KBoards mods want to delete something or edit it, that's up to them. Being a mod is a thankless job. Do I always agree with that or think it is justified? No. But it's not my playground, not my rules. If I want to play with my friends here, then I gotta suck it up and respect the rules of the playground. That's just life.

I'm also surprised that the Defendant appears shocked to have seen the recent screen shots. Did the Defendant have a change of counsel? Shouldn't both parties have access to all the documents submitted for the case? If I was the Defendant and had never seen those images before yesterday, I would be asking my attorney why.


----------



## Usedtoposthere

I will donate some more today also. Geez, louise. It never ends.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

EB said:


> I don't see the Plaintiff filing suit against any of the Defendant's supporters or donators, or doing anything to silence them. I don't see the Plaintiff's supporters emailing _employers_ of those who support the Defendant, but I do observe the Defendant's supporters doing that very thing.
> 
> I know there has been discussion of posts being deleted. I've seen it happen on both sides. The fact is that we are all playing in someone else's playground when we are online. If KBoards mods want to delete something or edit it, that's up to them. Being a mod is a thankless job. Do I always agree with that or think it is justified? No. But it's not my playground, not my rules. If I want to play with my friends here, then I gotta suck it up and respect the rules of the playground. That's just life.


I agree about moderation. Of course I've had posts I didn't think should be deleted, but it's their forum and their rules. The mods have gone above and beyond to keep some very contentious threads open. I resent on their behalf the charge of bias--I've witnessed quite the opposite.

To your other point, I have always wanted to keep this just between the Defendant and myself. I didn't even pursue suing the person behind the twitter account that trolled and defamed me, advising others not to read my books. I have been vocal about how out of line I thought the countersuit was, in no small part because there was no conspiracy--no coordinated effort by me and those named. With some, I've barely exchanged more than a few posts here.

What went on inside "Rebecca's Flying Monkeys" displays the opposite. Participants agreed to unfriend authors that were friends of mine--or others named in the suit. That _is _a coordinated effort and not one I take lightly, especially given some of the more malicious posts--many of which have not yet been brought to light. I sincerely hope this can be settled soon. I want to move on with my life and forget the word "screenshot" exists. If that's not possible, my lawyer and I may need to discuss our options.


----------



## 91831

ChristinaGarner said:


> I want to move on with my life and forget the word "screenshot" exists. If that's not possible, my lawyer and I may need to discuss our options.


I hope that day comes soon for you Christina. 
Thanks as always for keeping us abreast and for standing up for yourself (and, by proxy, a fair number of us).
I wish I could do more than give you moral support.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

ChristinaGarner said:


> What went on inside "Rebecca's Flying Monkeys" displays the opposite. Participants agreed to unfriend authors that were friends of mine--or others named in the suit. That _is _a coordinated effort and not one I take lightly, especially given some of the more malicious posts--many of which have not yet been brought to light. I sincerely hope this can be settled soon.


I wish a speedy resolution to this as well for you and all those affected by it. It is a travesty that the legal system is designed in such a way that people have no choice but to spends thousands of dollars in legal fees to get justice.


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> What went on inside "Rebecca's Flying Monkeys" displays the opposite. Participants agreed to unfriend authors that were friends of mine--or others named in the suit. That _is _a coordinated effort and not one I take lightly, especially given some of the more malicious posts--many of which have not yet been brought to light. I sincerely hope this can be settled soon. I want to move on with my life and forget the word "screenshot" exists. If that's not possible, my lawyer and I may need to discuss our options.


It's interesting that people seem to think that everyone behaves/is motivated they are... they are sure you must have coordinated the effort because they certainly did. And do.

Are the additional screenshots available publicly now as part of the lawsuit files? Or are those pending further action?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> It's interesting that people seem to think that everyone behaves/is motivated they are... they are sure you must have coordinated the effort because they certainly did. And do.
> 
> Are the additional screenshots available publicly now as part of the lawsuit files? Or are those pending further action?


Pending further action. I hope this can be settled to avoid dragging others into it. But those screenshots are evidence of an organized effort to hurt both me and my career, so if I need to use them to prove my case, I will.

And thanks, EB and ev. I appreciate you both.

P.S., Someone just asked me privately if the group really was called, "Rebecca's Flying Monkeys."

It was.


----------



## Becca Mills

Folks, really. The only mentions of Rebecca on this thread should be along the lines of "Rebecca's lawyer filed X today." The focus needs to be on the lawsuit, exclusively.


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Just catching up. Thanks for all of the updates.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

ChristinaGarner said:


> Wayne, I continue to be humbled by your generosity, especially after it caused you to be sued for absolutely no reason. Most would have quietly slipped away and I wouldn't have blamed them. Please know you have my deep gratitude.


I'm so glad you had the cojones to ride this through for this long. I know it's been a drain in more ways than one. I'm also glad that the judge has seen the oppositions motions for what they were. Baseless delaying tactics and intimidation. You are the avatar for all the good in the indie community. And we will all owe you a huge debt of gratitude when this is over.

I'm happy to support this, to help clean up the indie community.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Krista D. Ball

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'm happy to support this, to help clean up the indie community.


Agreed.


----------



## Susan Stec

Donated again. Passing around David’s website and Christine’s gofund me address. It’s getting nasty on FB. Again. (Sigh)


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'm so glad you had the cojones to ride this through for this long. I know it's been a drain in more ways than one. I'm also glad that the judge has seen the oppositions motions for what they were. Baseless delaying tactics and intimidation. You are the avatar for all the good in the indie community. And we will all owe you a huge debt of gratitude when this is over.
> 
> I'm happy to support this, to help clean up the indie community.


I'm incredibly flattered by your characterization, but I'm the one with the debt of gratitude--for both you personally and the community as a whole. I continue to be humbled by and strive to live up to the trust that's been placed in me.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> I'm incredibly flattered by your characterization, but I'm the one with the debt of gratitude--for both you personally and the community as a whole. I continue to be humbled by and strive to live up to the trust that's been placed in me.


But you are also the one who is dealing with all the stress on behalf of the rest of us. It's for this that we are grateful


----------



## unkownwriter

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> But you are also the one who is dealing with all the stress on behalf of the rest of us. It's for this that we are grateful


Times a thousand. We're the cheerleaders and the folks carrying the energy drink. You're the one on the field taking the tackles. (Not the best analogy, but it's early!)


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Victoria Wright said:


> Glad things are settling down for some of the people that have been attacked in this case. To those still in it, I'm rooting for you.
> 
> And since it seems to have been buried by a couple of pages, I dug out the link to Christina's fundraiser again -- https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## Evenstar

I've been away from home and only logging in sporadically, so today is the first time I've had a chance to read everything and properly catch up with this thread (which I generally follow with great interest). I have, however, just been through it and (with the agreement of the other moderators) have removed several posts that don't relate directly to the law suit. Hopefully, the fact that they have been visible for quite some time means that anyone who is also following along has had an opportunity to read them, but they are detracting from keeping the thread within the guidelines that was decided upon.

Thank you all for your understanding, and thank you Christina for continuing to keep everyone updated of each development.


----------



## DIAMONDSINTHESKY

Still rooting for you here in the UK Christine.

I went through something very very similar to this but in the film industry, so believe me when I say, I know what you're going through. You ever get to London, a tour of the city and lunch is on me


----------



## inconsequential

Any new news? It's been over a month since there's been an update.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

inconsequential said:


> Any new news? It's been over a month since there's been an update.


I was wondering the same.


----------



## unkownwriter

From what I understand, things are working their way through the court system. Slow process. I haven't heard anything new anywhere I linger on the web, so I'm assuming (HA!) that things are taking their proper course.

That doesn't mean Christina couldn't use some more donations, so anyone who can afford to do so could toss some bills her way.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hi everyone. I'm sorry I haven't posted an update. I'm currently in discussion with my attorney about what I am allowed to share and should be able to post something substantive soon.

I wish I could be more specific, but I hope you all understand why I need to show restraint. As she-la-ti-da mentioned, I am still accepting donations and am humbled by your support. The link to the funding page is: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community. Funds can also be sent via PayPal Friends & Family (which avoids gofundme's fees) to christina (at) christinagarner (dot) com. I always update the donation page with funds received this way. (ETA: I always leave PP donations anonymous unless given permission to post the contributor's name.)

I know other scandals (and unfortunately, lawsuits) have come to the forefront of the community which makes me doubly grateful for all of you who remain interested in this case and invested in seeing justice done. You have my deep, deep thanks.

More soon.


----------



## unkownwriter

Christina, we appreciate anything you can tell us, but understand that sometimes it's not possible. Stay strong, we're behind you with whatever support we can give.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone. I'm working on a post to update you all on where things stand with the case; I'll soon be sharing discovery that I turned over late last year with an update of where things stand.

Thanks for sticking with me.

_Edited, after discussion by the Mod Team. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Admin_


----------



## 39416

Can you tell us if this part is true?

"she [RH] had been offered a settlement in late May, which was less than what she'd paid in legal fees, and which she'd refused to take."

_Moderator's note: loraininflorida has quoted something from an outside link, now removed, but this quoted bit is germain to this thread and will be allowed to remain in place. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy_


----------



## ChristinaGarner

loraininflorida said:


> Can you tell us if this part is true?
> 
> "she [RH] had been offered a settlement in late May, which was less than what she'd paid in legal fees, and which she'd refused to take."


Thanks for asking--I'm always happy to answer anything I can.

The answer is yes, absolutely. In January of 2017, I was told we would be required to sign new contracts. At that time, I inquired about a refund. I did not know at the time, that "refund" was the incorrect term. Being asked to sign new contracts made the original contracts void, and therefore I was owed my money back not as a refund, but because an agreement was no longer in place. She refused.

In May, my attorney sent a demand letter asking for $15,000 and a retraction of the untrue claims made against me. At the time, I was out $3500 for the contracts and $4800 in legal fees. We had hoped to settle somewhere in the middle, either at a break-even point or a small loss.

That offer went completely ignored, and because of that, we filed the suit on the timeline we'd laid out in the letter. Avoiding litigation would have been best for all involved. I regret the defendant was not amenable.


----------



## 75814

Link bump:

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## MyraScott

Christina, my understanding is that you've made offers to settle, both before the case was ever filed and recently to try and bring some resolution to this case. 

Is she refusing to settle the case?  If so, what are you looking at, moving forward? Discovery?  Court date?  How much is this costing you? 

Thanks


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> Christina, my understanding is that you've made offers to settle, both before the case was ever filed and recently to try and bring some resolution to this case.
> 
> Is she refusing to settle the case? If so, what are you looking at, moving forward? Discovery? Court date? How much is this costing you?
> 
> Thanks


We have a status conference on 6/18/2018.

Beyond that, we will be requesting discovery and filing our answer to the cross-complaint very soon.

I've always hoped that reason would prevail, and we would be able to settle this matter. Despite best efforts, we are still unable to come to agreement. I cannot speak specifically about those negotiations, but in general I will say, for me, this has never been about money.

In January 2017, my request that we settle the matter amicably was denied. After consulting three attorneys who assured me I was due the money back from the void contracts, I decided my peace of mind was worth more than $3500 and walked away.

But in April 2017, a private message between the defendant and me was made public without my consent, and the defendant retaliated with an untrue and unwarranted character assassination. While I can live without money, I cannot live without my integrity.

Even though I would like to settle this and move on, I cannot do so if it means going against my conscience, otherwise I will have lost something more valuable than money: my self-respect. I will not lie, even in an effort to end this.

This fight has been expensive and exhausting. By the time it's over, I will have spent far more than I could ever hope to receive, even should I prevail. It's taken a toll on me I would have never expected and has gone on much longer than any of us hoped. I want you all to know how deeply grateful I am for the support you have given me over the past year. It has meant more to me than I can ever express. I wish I could say this will be over soon, but I suspect it won't be.

I started this not just for me, but for all of the people who posted in the box set thread and sent messages of their own stories. But from book stuffers to cockygate, the world of indie publishing now has far bigger stories to focus on than one author's struggle against a box set promoter. I know that to continue on, I must be willing to do so of my own accord.

And I am.

Mine is the face I see when I look in the mirror, and the respect therein is worth more to me than anything. As I said to my attorney: I've been broke before.

Thank you all for everything you've done for me. Whether it was a kind word, a contribution to my legal fund, or putting yourselves in the firing line by voicing your support, each kindness has been noted and appreciated. Your belief in me and this case has kept me going.

I'll continue to post updates as I can.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

ChristinaGarner said:


> But from book stuffers to cockygate, the world of indie publishing now has far bigger stories to focus on than one author's struggle against a box set promoter. I know that to continue on, I must be willing to do so of my own accord.
> 
> And I am.
> 
> Mine is the face I see when I look in the mirror, and the respect therein is worth more to me than anything. As I said to my attorney: I've been broke before.
> 
> Thank you all for everything you've done for me. Whether it was a kind word, a contribution to my legal fund, or putting yourselves in the firing line by voicing your support, each kindness has been noted and appreciated. Your belief in me and this case has kept me going.


Don't think for one second this isn't equally as important as the other stuff that's been popping up in the headlines. This is about justice in the indie world, a place where some days it feels like there's far too little.

I've been quiet on this thread lately, mainly because there are only so many hours in the day, but please don't think we've forgotten about this or stopped supporting your efforts.


----------



## Fel Beasley

ChristinaGarner said:


> We have a status conference on 6/18/2018.
> 
> Beyond that, we will be requesting discovery and filing our answer to the cross-complaint very soon.
> 
> I've always hoped that reason would prevail, and we would be able to settle this matter. Despite best efforts, we are still unable to come to agreement. I cannot speak specifically about those negotiations, but in general I will say, for me, this has never been about money.
> 
> In January 2017, my request that we settle the matter amicably was denied. After consulting three attorneys who assured me I was due the money back from the void contracts, I decided my peace of mind was worth more than $3500 and walked away.
> 
> But in April 2017, a private message between the defendant and me was made public without my consent, and the defendant retaliated with an untrue and unwarranted character assassination. While I can live without money, I cannot live without my integrity.
> 
> Even though I would like to settle this and move on, I cannot do so if it means going against my conscience, otherwise I will have lost something more valuable than money: my self-respect. I will not lie, even in an effort to end this.
> 
> This fight has been expensive and exhausting. By the time it's over, I will have spent far more than I could ever hope to receive, even should I prevail. It's taken a toll on me I would have never expected and has gone on much longer than any of us hoped. I want you all to know how deeply grateful I am for the support you have given me over the past year. It has meant more to me than I can ever express. I wish I could say this will be over soon, but I suspect it won't be.
> 
> I started this not just for me, but for all of the people who posted in the box set thread and sent messages of their own stories. But from book stuffers to cockygate, the world of indie publishing now has far bigger stories to focus on than one author's struggle against a box set promoter. I know that to continue on, I must be willing to do so of my own accord.
> 
> And I am.
> 
> Mine is the face I see when I look in the mirror, and the respect therein is worth more to me than anything. As I said to my attorney: I've been broke before.
> 
> Thank you all for everything you've done for me. Whether it was a kind word, a contribution to my legal fund, or putting yourselves in the firing line by voicing your support, each kindness has been noted and appreciated. Your belief in me and this case has kept me going.
> 
> I'll continue to post updates as I can.


I support you 100% in choosing to continue. I'd support you 100% in choosing not to continue, as well.

No one can fault you if you chose to stop and settle (whatever the terms). I definitely wouldn't. Everyone has a breaking point and the past year + has been heartbreakingly brutal. Most would give in. I would. I wouldn't have the strength to keep fighting against what is a nightmare that's financially, emotionally, and professionally exhaustive and damaging.

Anyone who wants to say this is about money hasn't been paying attention.

It would be completely understandable and wouldn't take away from the tenacity and strength you've already shown so far to settle on possibly unacceptable terms.

But I hope the community continues its support. Court moves slow, so slow and movement/updates are infrequent. For a lot, out of sight, out of mind.

Thank you for continuing to update when you can. And I hope we can remember that for you it's not out of sight, out of mind. It's a daily/weekly/monthly battle.

You're strong, with a lot of integrity, and you aren't in this alone.

I agree with Rick that this is just as important as any of the other issues popping up.

Thank you for being willing to stand up and bear the burden most of us wouldn't. It says a lot about the person you are.


----------



## unkownwriter

Christina, I just wanted to say that you are a hell of a strong woman, and I admire you greatly. This issue is just as important as any other, because it is the kind of thing that could happen to any of us. If people think they're above the law, there would be no stopping them from doing the same or worse to the next person.

We haven't forgotten you, we're behind you every step of the way, no matter what.


----------



## 75814

Christina, you've got an unbelievable amount of integrity.


----------



## MyraScott

We're still behind you! I can't even imagine how hard this has been.

I know the reasons that this case is important have sort of faded from people's minds, but this is serious and we need to see it through to the end, in my opinion.

Christina, you rock!

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Perry Constantine said:


> Christina, you've got an unbelievable amount of integrity.


100% ^^

Christina has never hid inside a closed group where the narrative is strictly controlled; that speaks volumes about the integrity of her character and her case. Discussion of this case with actual facts has gone on publicly, here in this public forum. The mods have worked above and beyond to keep this thread open, which also speaks volumes about the integrity of those who run KBoards. I would like to remind anyone reading this thread that the public details of the case can be viewed at the County of LA Superior Court HERE, type in case #BC664530 and hit SEARCH. You can donate to Christina's legal fund HERE as well. Please consider donating.

_Heavily edited. Thank you for the kind words, but please note there is a limit to the effort we're willing to put into any particular thread. This one has required 130 acts of moderation so far, not including the one I'm doing right now. To help us keep this and other threads open, please adhere to our WHOA principle and refrain from importing other groups' issues. - Becca_


----------



## thesmallprint

Keep on keeping on, Christina. You are in my thoughts.

Joe


----------



## unkownwriter

Perry Constantine said:


> Christina, you've got an unbelievable amount of integrity.


Totally agree 1000 percent.


----------



## 41419

Mad respect for the resilience you have shown throughout this whole horrible case and we support you 100% whatever happens from this point onwards.


----------



## MyraScott

Will you know what your next steps are after the conference on 6/18?  An estimate on the next round of legal costs?


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

I'm sorry this is still dragging on. I feel that this is an important issue and I'm surprised that it hasn't been as loudly discussed and protested as some other happenings in the community have been. I admire your tenacity and I believe that it's important that behavior like RH's isn't tolerated, but I do hope this is resolved soon so that you can move on with your life.

Still standing with you. Just want you to know you're not alone.


----------



## RedFoxUF

Oh no. I'm still invested in this. Absolutely.  I'm not quitting on you.


----------



## Lydniz

Elizabeth Barone said:


> I'm sorry this is still dragging on. I feel that this is an important issue and I'm surprised that it hasn't been as loudly discussed and protested as some other happenings in the community have been.


People get lawsuit fatigue. I guess that works in the defendant's favour.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Lydniz™ said:


> People get lawsuit fatigue. I guess that works in the defendant's favour.


Yup -- I know I would. It takes a serious toll, physically, emotionally, financially, and in other areas, I'm sure. That's why support is so important.


----------



## MyraScott

I believe delay is a pretty effective tactic- wears people out and runs up the legal bills.


----------



## Randall Wood

Still with you Christina. Not going anywhere. 

Give em hell on the 18th.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Have got the 18th marked on the calendar.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

I've met a lot of people in nearly six decades of traveling around the sun. Every now and then, I run into some pompous fool who demands respect. I politely point out, that I don't know them and respect is something one earns, not what another gives.

Christina, you've earned my respect, as well as the respect of hundreds, perhaps thousands of authors in the indie community.


----------



## David VanDyke

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I politely point out, that I don't know them and respect is something one earns, not what another gives.


Actually, I disagree, and I'm sad that this old saw keeps being repeated. In fact, this idea is damaging. I've had to try to correct kids who claim that everyone has to earn their respect before they will be respectful.

In a civil society, respect is extended immediately and up front. We respect everyone as a starting position. If we meet someone on the street, we give them a standard measure of respect. We open doors for people. We greet them politely. We say please and thank-you, I hope. In the microcosm of KBoards, we're supposed to show respect for each other even if we've never seen a post from someone until now. We don't wait until they earn our respect until we respect them.

So really, respect is the default.

It can, however, be lost, thrown away, damaged and destroyed by disreputable actions, of course. And, of course, it can be reinforced by respectable actions.

I think we all have had our respect for Christina (and you too, Wayne) increased immeasurably by your actions in this situation.


----------



## MyraScott

I continue to be inspired by your courage, your dedication, and your integrity.  It's easy to be fired up when the mud is flying and emotions are high, but it's harder to stay focused when things drag out and cost you so much time, money and emotional energy.  

There are a lot of people afraid to stand up for what's right, even when they've been personally affected.  You've put it all on the line and you aren't giving up.  Good luck with your legal conference!


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

In a civilized world, yes, David. Very little of this big blue ball is civilized. You don't have to be disrespectful on meeting someone new. That's the problem, most people think in black and white. If some pompous asshat demands respect from the get-go, and I don't give it, that doesn't mean I'm disrespectful to them, I'm indifferent. It doesn't take much to earn respect. As you said, just being polite is often enough. That earns the first measure of respect.


----------



## Becca Mills

_Respect_ also has different meanings. There's "due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others," which is something we do indeed owe everyone automatically, IMO. But there's also "a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements" -- more of a special attitude toward people one sees as exceptional.

All of which is to say, you both make good points, perhaps with slightly different takes on the concept of _respect_, and let's not stray too far from the lawsuit. 

_ETA: Later posts on the matter of "respect" have been edited/removed, so as to keep the thread focused on the lawsuit.
ETA: Further such posts will be deleted without additional comment._


----------



## Dayseye

Agreed, what Christina is doing is awesome and worthy of anyone's respect, including mine.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## georgette

Christina, I am so sorry that you're going through this.  I have donated a couple of times, and will continue to do so.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

It's already the 18th in SA. Awaiting the latest update.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It's already the 18th in SA. Awaiting the latest update.


I hope it's good news.


----------



## Can neither confirm nor deny that I am W.R. Ginge

Got my ear to the ground here in Australia, too


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Wow, guys--I have notifications turned on for this post, and somehow I missed all of these from the past few days. Thank you for the kind words and apologies for the lack of reply!

The status conference was yesterday, and I have a call scheduled today with my attorney for a quick download. This meeting was mostly to update the judge on our progress and plan next steps, so I don't anticipate anything earth-shattering. I'll let you know what I find out.

As an FYI, Rebecca has a new attorney handling her case: James D. Decker. He is from the same law firm as the previous attorney.

We have also been assigned a new judge. That can happen for any number of reasons: judge moves courtrooms, heavy case load, etc. Our new judge is Steven J. Kleifield and it appears he is very thoughtful in his rulings which is something I appreciated about our former judge. 

Thanks again for the kind words and support. As some have mentioned, lawsuits are draining: financially, physically, and emotionally. But I can rest with the knowledge I have made truthful and earnest offers to settle this matter on multiple occasions. Having done so leaves me with zero regrets in pressing on, whatever the future cost. I am humbled by and appreciate those of you who are still hanging in here with me.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

ChristinaGarner said:


> Wow, guys--I have notifications turned on for this post, and somehow I missed all of these from the past few days. Thank you for the kind words and apologies for the lack of reply!
> 
> The status conference was yesterday, and I have a call scheduled today with my attorney for a quick download. This meeting was mostly to update the judge on our progress and plan next steps, so I don't anticipate anything earth-shattering. I'll let you know what I find out.
> 
> As an FYI, Rebecca has a new attorney handling her case: James D. Decker. He is from the same law firm as the previous attorney.
> 
> We have also been assigned a new judge. That can happen for any number of reasons: judge moves courtrooms, heavy case load, etc. Our new judge is Steven J. Kleifield and it appears he is very thoughtful in his rulings which is something I appreciated about our former judge.
> 
> Thanks again for the kind words and support. As some have mentioned, lawsuits are draining: financially, physically, and emotionally. But I can rest with the knowledge I have made truthful and earnest offers to settle this matter on multiple occasions. Having done so leaves me with zero regrets in pressing on, whatever the future cost. I am humbled by and appreciate those of you who are still hanging in here with me.


Thank you for the update. I'm glad to hear the new judge seems to be just as thoughtful with his rulings. I do wish you could've kept the same judge, but that's promising. <333


----------



## unkownwriter

Thanks for the update, Christina! Still behind you 100%.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

I spoke with my attorney regarding the hearing on Monday. 

Rebecca's lawyer did not attend in person. Someone from the firm teleconferenced in, but it was not the new attorney we've been dealing with the past several weeks. My attorney alerted her that settlement talks stalled a couple of weeks ago. 

The defense has requested we see a mediating judge. Given how far apart we are with respect to the statement, I hold little hope for settlement but remain open to the process. This judge will give no formal opinion of the case, and the result is non-binding unless both parties agree. 

With the trial less than four months away, we will continue with discovery, depositions, and any necessary subpoenas. That part of the process had been placed on hold in hopes we would come to agreement, but with none on the horizon, there will be quite a bit of activity in the coming weeks. 

Thank you for your continued interest in and support of this case. If you have any questions, I'll do my best to answer.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for keeping us updated. What a lengthy and complicated process that could all have easily been avoided. So glad you have the guts to stick it out.


----------



## MyraScott

So, the sticking point is a public statement?  I know you probably can't tell us but can't you just drop the statement entirely?

I mean, I think most of us believe you are owed a public apology for being accused of plagiarism and having your friends targeted... but if that were dropped, could you move forward?


----------



## 91831

MyraScott said:


> So, the sticking point is a public statement? I know you probably can't tell us but can't you just drop the statement entirely?
> 
> I mean, I think most of us believe you are owed a public apology for being accused of plagiarism and having your friends targeted... but if that were dropped, could you move forward?


Personally, I wouldn't be able to. That would be letting the other side win on a point they shouldn't, that they could declare as evidence they were right - and on something so ghastly! - and lord over others, justify themselves for their actions. Nope. I couldn't do that if I were Christina. Not unless I desperately couldn't any more. Although, I'd understand if she did.


----------



## unkownwriter

WasAnn said:


> To my view, the public statement would be super important to me. The bad things were said publicly, the retraction needs to be just as public. Otherwise, there can be too much behind the scenes "see, we weren't wrong or else we would have had to say so publicly" mess.


Exactly. If there's no public, wide-spread apology, then the other party can say anything they want and that is what will become fact. So, no. Statement must happen.


----------



## MyraScott

she-la-ti-da said:


> If there's no public, wide-spread apology, then the other party can say anything they want and that is what will become fact.


Well, we all know how things get _spun_. With or without an admission of guilt, I wish you the best in trying to settle. I know it has to have been a long, miserable process so far.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

If I were in Christina's shoes, I'd sooner drop the financial end than the public statement. I can always make more money. But integrity is a totally different thing.


----------



## unkownwriter

True, things get spun, but as Wayne said, it's about the integrity. I'm sure we have our opinions about some people's integrity, but I know I have none about Christina's.


----------



## David VanDyke

she-la-ti-da said:


> I'm sure we have our opinions about some people's integrity, but I know I have none about Christina's.


I had to read that several times before I realized what you meant. Almost sounds like you mean the opposite of what I believe you mean.

***

Only Christina can judge whether to hold out for an admission of wrongdoing, or what's right for her. It's great that she's thinking of the whole community, but at the end of the day, I think we'll all be understanding, whatever she decides to do.

Most cases are settled without admission of guilt--that's kind of the point of "settling" in most instances. Get reparation/compensation and move on. Assuming it's paid, the settlement money is a form of punishment for the guilty and a win for the injured party, and there's always the incentive to move on with one's life and put things behind. The defending parties (lawyers plus RH) may be hoping to wear Christina out, and RH lawyers themselves are just happy to get billable hours from a client, as I can't imagine they actually believe in their client's position.

In any case, hang in there, Christina.


----------



## unkownwriter

Oh, crap! Bad writer, bad! I am sorry anyone could not understand what I meant, which was that I believe in Christina's integrity 100%. Oh, gosh. What a horrible way to word something. Of course, it seemed perfectly clear to me at the time, but now I see how it could be misread. My apologies!

But yes, at the end of the day Christina needs to do what is best for her. She's the one going through this mess, and she's more important. I wish the best for her and hope this case comes out with everything good for her.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

I'd want the public apology, too, and in a perfect world, I'd get it. Life isn't perfect, though, and at some point you have to measure what's best for you in the long run. 

Do what's best for you, Christina -- I'm behind you 100%.

Whatever happens next, I'm proud that the community has come together to take a stand to say no more.


----------



## Jena H

she-la-ti-da said:


> True, things get spun, but as Wayne said, it's about the integrity. I'm sure we have our opinions about some people's integrity, but I know I have none about Christina's.


I knew what you meant, and knew you had 'spoken' awkwardly. First part of the sentence mentions _opinions,_ but the second half makes more sense if you had said _doubts_ rather than opinions.


----------



## unkownwriter

Good point, Jena. I do try to be careful, since context is important on the Internet, but I am prone to slip up.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone. Sorry to have been absent the past week. Thank you for all the words of support.

While I would love to share what's transpired with regard to settlement talks, I'm unable to. I will say that the main issue is not, and never has been, money. I'll also reiterate I won't be made to say anything in a statement that is untrue; I would rather say nothing at all than lie.

This process has taught me a lot about the justice system and none of it has been positive. It really does come down to a war of attrition and who has the deepest pockets. As proven by her newly custom-built home and her own statements of spending tens of thousands to furnish it, the defendant's pockets are far deeper than mine. Still, I'm committed to seeing this through. For the third time, I pushed back the release of my next novel and accepted a job so that I can continue this fight. 

I resent mortgaging my future in an attempt to get justice. I'm sad that I don't have time to write and that my sales have fallen off sharply because of this mess. But I resent false accusations even more.


----------



## D A Bale

WasAnn said:


> Christina - If you have a sale anytime soon, let us all know. I'd be happy to put you in my NL! Boosting might help some.


I second this.


----------



## RedFoxUF

Christina...I'll push your books for you.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone. Sorry to have been absent the past week. Thank you for all the words of support.
> 
> While I would love to share what's transpired with regard to settlement talks, I'm unable to. I will say that the main issue is not, and never has been, money. I'll also reiterate I won't be made to say anything in a statement that is untrue; I would rather say nothing at all than lie.
> 
> This process has taught me a lot about the justice system and none of it has been positive. It really does come down to a war of attrition and who has the deepest pockets. As proven by her newly custom-built home and her own statements of spending tens of thousands to furnish it, the defendant's pockets are far deeper than mine. Still, I'm committed to seeing this through. For the third time, I pushed back the release of my next novel and accepted a job so that I can continue this fight.
> 
> I resent mortgaging my future in an attempt to get justice. I'm sad that I don't have time to write and that my sales have fallen off sharply because of this mess. But I resent false accusations even more.


But what fodder for a plot point in an outline.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

WasAnn, D A Bale, and RedFoxUF, 

I am so very touched you would make such generous offers. Perhaps when all of this is over and I'm able to focus on writing, we could arrange some swaps  

Thank you for your kindness.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Hi Christina,
I admire your stamina in being able to carry on under such difficult circumstances. I look forward to hearing a satisfactory outcome.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I look forward to hearing a satisfactory outcome.


You and me both!

While I have tried my best to settle in an effort to save time and stress for all involved, I am confident we have the appropriate evidence to substantiate our position in court. Now that we've pressed on, I'm focused on winning.

Thank you for your continued support.


----------



## 75814

WasAnn said:


> Christina - If you have a sale anytime soon, let us all know. I'd be happy to put you in my NL! Boosting might help some.


I'll sign onto this, too. I'd be happy to let my readers know about your books.


----------



## spellscribe

The system sucks balls. I wish this were easier dude. People who do wrong should be held accountable, period.


----------



## MyraScott

ChristinaGarner said:


> I will say that the main issue is not, and never has been, money. I'll also reiterate I won't be made to say anything in a statement that is untrue; I would rather say nothing at all than lie.
> 
> ... It really does come down to a war of attrition and who has the deepest pockets. As proven by her newly custom-built home and her own statements of spending tens of thousands to furnish it, the defendant's pockets are far deeper than mine.


I believe what you are doing is good for the community. No one can face this alone.

Can we help? Is there a new funding campaign or do you have a PayPal where we can send donations? I feel like PayPal is better as you actually get more of the money instead of the funding site taking a chunk of it.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Just to let you know we are still thinking positive for you.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

My intention was to give a quick update, but instead I find myself forced to once again defend myself against untrue accusations.

Mods, I will be quoting something Rebecca Hamilton posted publicly to her Facebook page about this case which is in accordance with your rules for this thread as I understand them. She is speaking about the discovery requests she recently received.

_Edited. - Becca_


----------



## ChristinaGarner

The settlement conference was ordered at the request of her own attorney. The judge who hears our case will not be the judge presiding over the case and will have no authority to rule. He or she can make non-binding suggestions. Nothing is binding unless both parties agree.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

ChristinaGarner said:


> The settlement conference was ordered at the request of her own attorney. The judge who hears our case will not be the judge presiding over the case and will have no authority to rule. He or she can make non-binding suggestions. Nothing is binding unless both parties agree.
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


Exactly how I thought it worked. The judge won't "force" anyone to make a public statement admitting guilt, right? Any statement she puts out as part of a settlement would be entirely approved by her and her lawyer, and agreed upon by all parties.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## ChristinaGarner

EB said:


> Exactly how I thought it worked. The judge won't "force" anyone to make a public statement admitting guilt, right? Any statement she puts out as part of a settlement would be entirely approved by her and her lawyer, and agreed upon by all parties.
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


Yes, that is 100% the way it works. Any statement she makes resulting from the settlement conference she requested which takes place 8/24 will be with her explicit agreement.


----------



## Becca Mills

Here's what should be posted here:

1) Factual updates on changes in the status of the case. That means stuff like "my lawyer filed X today," "the judge ruled Y today," "a hearing has been scheduled for Z date," etc.
2) Occasional appeals for financial support and expressions of appreciation for such support.
3) Civilly phrased expressions of emotional support and appreciation for such.

Rebecca should not be mentioned here except to report significant legal actions taken by her lawyer(s).

Discussion of legal tactics and the giving of legal advice is not welcome.

If these limitations have not been made adequately clear, I apologize. I hope the situation is clear now, and that everyone who has been following the case understands the thread's rules and abides by them. We'll move to thread bans from here on out.

Questions about the rules for this thread should come to me or one of the other mods via PM. If they're posted here in the thread, they'll be deleted.

ETA: I see a number of posts came in while I was writing this. I'm going out for a while, so I'll be locking the thread until I get home and have time to read what's been posted.

EagainTA: I was disappointed to see that discussion of the material I removed from Christina's post continued after I removed it. Most of those posts have been deleted. I salvaged a few bits that appeared mostly to convey factual information and clarification about an upcoming meeting.

I'm going to leave this thread closed for the time-being. After more than a year and 150+ moderation actions, there's apparently still significant misunderstanding of the limitations the site owner placed on this thread. Given our attempts to explain here, here, here, here, here, and in a number of other locations, I'm thinking the limitations simply cannot be made clear enough. Or perhaps they simply can't be accepted. At any rate, I think I've maxed out on working this particular thread, at least for now.

*Editing once again:* The site owner has reopened this thread, confident that KBoards' membership will work together to ensure it remains open. The staff is, of course, available to answer questions about what may and may not be workable for the thread, if you're uncertain about posting. Thanks.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

Thank you, mods and admin.


----------



## Lydniz

Thanks, mods. This is important.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

You are welcome.

Please help us keep it open. Becca's post explains clearly what is allowed. Members who post outside these boundaries will be banned from the thread or placed on post approval and their post deleted, not edited. If you are not sure about what you'd like to post, ask first. Thanks.

Betsy
KB Admin


----------



## D A Bale

Bless you all!


----------



## MyraScott

This is great.  Thank you so much.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Glad we will be able to follow the proceedings and keep sending uplifting/encouraging messages.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Any updates? Just to let you know that we are still sending positive thoughts your way.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

To the mods, thank you for allowing us to keep this thread open. I appreciate your hard work!

To Christina, just popping in again to let you know I'm thinking of you and hope everything on the 24th goes well.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thanks, everyone. And thank you to the mods. Erring on the side of caution, I'll be posting even less frequently than before. I still very much appreciate the work the mods do and all the messages of support.

I can provide a quick update which is: the first round of discovery we sent out is due back this week. The second round, which is based on the countersuit, was mailed on 8/7 and has likely been received by her new attorney by now. I have not seen the questions, but do know given the nature of the claims in the cross complaint--loss of income, etc.--that the questions are focused in that direction. 

As Elizabeth mentioned, the settlement conference the defendant requested is on 8/24. 

From the bottom of my heart, thank you all for sticking with me through this. It's gone on longer than any of use would have ever imagined.


----------



## MyraScott

Do the discovery items become public once they are part of the record?


----------



## 39416

In civil litigation, absent a specific court order otherwise (very rare), either side can file pretty much anything they want in the court file, and once in the file, it is public.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

MyraScott said:


> Do the discovery items become public once they are part of the record?


It doesn't automatically become part of the public record, no. Certainly if we use it as an exhibit it would.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for getting back to us with an update.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

For anyone wanting to donate to Christina's GoFundMe campaign, here's the link:

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

PaulineMRoss said:


> For anyone wanting to donate to Christina's GoFundMe campaign, here's the link:
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


Thanks for the reminder, Pauline.


----------



## unkownwriter

Thanks for whatever updates and info you feel able and willing to supply, Christina. We still support you and wish the outcome is totally in your favor.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Thanks, guys, for the continued support. And thank you for the donations. This month is an especially expensive one with two separate filings, discovery, a mediation brief, and a court appearance. Every dollar helps lessen the burden, and I am deeply grateful.

I do have an update I can share. This afternoon, we filed our special motion to strike the defendant's cross-complaint in the form of an anti-SLAPP. For anyone unfamiliar:

"A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.

The California anti-SLAPP law was enacted to protect free speech rights. Code of Civil Procedure section 425.18 was enacted to facilitate the recovery by SLAPP victims of their damages through a SLAPPback (malicious prosecution action) against the SLAPP filers and their attorneys after the underlying SLAPP has been dismissed."

In a previous ruling, the judge said, "This cross-complaint is troubling because it smacks of revenge," and my attorney and I agree. We believe that between her well-researched motion and my personal declaration, (which includes several pertinent exhibits) we have effectively made the case for why the cross-complaint should be dismissed. Should we prevail, we will of course be seeking a recovery of damages, as defending against this cross-complaint has already cost tens of thousands of dollars.

The documents will be available to the public as soon as they are uploaded to the court website:

http://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?

The case number is Bc664530. No need to put in the courthouse.

The hearing, where oral arguments will take place, is in early September.

We expect to receive answers to our first round of discovery requests in the next few days, with the second round (pertaining to the cross-complaint) due a few weeks later. In the meantime, we are working on the brief we will provide the mediation judge for the MSC (mandatory settlement conference) on 8/24.

After a few months of very little movement, the past few weeks have been a flurry of activity. I expect this pace to keep up until trial in October, when this will finally be decided.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.


----------



## inconsequential

ChristinaGarner said:


> Thanks, guys, for the continued support. And thank you for the donations. This month is an especially expensive one with two separate filings, discovery, a mediation brief, and a court appearance. Every dollar helps lessen the burden, and I am deeply grateful.
> 
> I do have an update I can share. This afternoon, we filed our special motion to strike the defendant's cross-complaint in the form of an anti-SLAPP. For anyone unfamiliar:
> 
> "A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.
> 
> The California anti-SLAPP law was enacted to protect free speech rights. Code of Civil Procedure section 425.18 was enacted to facilitate the recovery by SLAPP victims of their damages through a SLAPPback (malicious prosecution action) against the SLAPP filers and their attorneys after the underlying SLAPP has been dismissed."
> 
> In a previous ruling, the judge said, "This cross-complaint is troubling because it smacks of revenge," and my attorney and I agree. We believe that between her well-researched motion and my personal declaration, (which includes several pertinent exhibits) we have effectively made the case for why the cross-complaint should be dismissed. Should we prevail, we will of course be seeking a recovery of damages, as defending against this cross-complaint has already cost tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> The documents will be available to the public as soon as they are uploaded to the court website:
> 
> http://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?
> 
> The case number is Bc664530. No need to put in the courthouse.
> 
> The hearing, where oral arguments will take place, is in early September.
> 
> We expect to receive answers to our first round of discovery requests in the next few days, with the second round (pertaining to the cross-complaint) due a few weeks later. In the meantime, we are working on the brief we will provide the mediation judge for the MSC (mandatory settlement conference) on 8/24.
> 
> After a few months of very little movement, the past few weeks have been a flurry of activity. I expect this pace to keep up until trial in October, when this will finally be decided.
> 
> Thanks for hanging in there with me.


Thanks for the update. You've been in my thoughts and prayers. Much love to you and yours.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

inconsequential said:


> Thanks for the update. You've been in my thoughts and prayers. Much love to you and yours.


Thank you. That means a lot to me.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for the new updates. Thinking positive thoughts for you and the outcome.


----------



## Fel Beasley

I've been checking but haven't seen any new files uploaded for the case in regards to the ANTI-SLAAP.

I could be missing where it is, of course.

Good luck with the settlement mediation on Friday, Christina. Hopefully, the mediator and the lawyers involved can be reasonable and find an end to this that doesn't cause further harm.

Keeping you in my thoughts this week and sending strength to get through this week.

Donated, too 

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## Ava Glass

Fel Beasley said:


> I've been checking but haven't seen any new files uploaded for the case in regards to the ANTI-SLAAP.
> 
> I could be missing where it is, of course.
> 
> Good luck with the settlement mediation on Friday, Christina. Hopefully, the mediator and the lawyers involved can be reasonable and find an end to this that doesn't cause further harm.
> 
> Keeping you in my thoughts this week and sending strength to get through this week.
> 
> Donated, too
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


The motion and Christina's declaration are up. You just need an account to see them in the document list at this moment.


----------



## Fel Beasley

Ava Glass said:


> The motion and Christina's declaration are up. You just need an account to see them in the document list at this moment.


Oh, thank you. I didn't have an account which would explain it


----------



## PhoenixS

You can find copies of the motion to strike the counter-claim (aka: anti-slapp) and Christina's declaration with accompanying screenshots here:

Anti-Slapp Motion
http://docdro.id/VqBGiFt

Christina's Declaration for the Anti-Slapp
http://docdro.id/MieWel0


----------



## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixS said:


> You can find copies of the motion to strike the counter-claim (aka: anti-slapp) and Christina's declaration with accompanying screenshots here:
> 
> Anti-Slapp Motion
> http://docdro.id/VqBGiFt
> 
> Christina's Declaration for the Anti-Slapp
> http://docdro.id/MieWel0


I hope the anti-SLAPP gives everyone an idea of how hard we are fighting, and I hope the exhibits in my declaration - especially those in F which have not been seen before - give an idea of what I've been dealing with and am up against.

Thanks for your continued support, and thank you to those who have donated in the past few days. These filings are prohibitively expensive and everything helps--especially now.


----------



## PhoenixS

ChristinaGarner said:


> We expect to receive answers to our first round of discovery requests in the next few days...


So I take it you've received the first round discovery answers in advance of the settlement meeting this Friday?

Also, what happens to the anti-SLAPP hearing on Sept 7 if you manage to reach a settlement deal on Friday? Does that still go forward?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixS said:


> So I take it you've received the first round discovery answers in advance of the settlement meeting this Friday?
> 
> Also, what happens to the anti-SLAPP hearing on Sept 7 if you manage to reach a settlement deal on Friday? Does that still go forward?


The answers are due, but we have not yet received them.

I appreciate the question about the anti-SLAPP. I'll have to discuss it with my attorney to see what, if anything, I am allowed to say.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

ChristinaGarner said:


> The answers are due, but we have not yet received them.
> 
> I appreciate the question about the anti-SLAPP. I'll have to discuss it with my attorney to see what, if anything, I am allowed to say.


*hugs*


----------



## MyraScott

Thanks for posting the links, Phoenix!


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Boyd said:


> Exhibit F is pretty eye opening. Does her lawyers have the screenshots? Wait, I should be asking if they've seen the exhibits yet?


I agree about exhibit F. We pared those screenshots down to the bare minimum. Many more exist from within that Facebook group.

The motion, my declaration, and the exhibits were all served in person to opposing counsel. Whether they have looked at it yet, I can't say. But yes, they do have it.


----------



## MyraScott

I know we aren't allowed to post links to other sites discussing the situation, but if you'll search on Facebook, Izzy Shows made a powerful post about her experience along with a plea to help the funding of this case.

The funding looks great... but a percentage of that goes to the funding site and I can imagine this case must have already incurred probably double that amount.

This really isn't about the $4k contracts, and even if Christina wins, she won't get back the legal fees. It's about showing support against predatory and manipulative business practices that prey on unsuspecting authors. It's about standing together and saying, we won't be manipulated any more.

Read Izzy's post. It's more than just her story.


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

MyraScott said:


> Those screenshots could appear in a textbook under the term "witch hunt."
> 
> I know we aren't allowed to post links to other sites discussing the situation, but if you'll search on Facebook, Izzy Shows made a powerful post about her experience along with a plea to help the funding of this case.
> 
> The funding looks great... but a percentage of that goes to the funding site and I can imagine this case must have already incurred probably double that amount.
> 
> This really isn't about the $4k contracts, and even if Christina wins, she won't get back the legal fees. It's about showing support against predatory and manipulative business practices that prey on unsuspecting authors. It's about standing together and saying, we won't be manipulated any more.
> 
> Read Izzy's post. It's more than just her story.


Thanks for passing on this info.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

MyraScott said:


> Those screenshots could appear in a textbook under the term "witch hunt."
> 
> I know we aren't allowed to post links to other sites discussing the situation, but if you'll search on Facebook, Izzy Shows made a powerful post about her experience along with a plea to help the funding of this case.
> 
> The funding looks great... but a percentage of that goes to the funding site and I can imagine this case must have already incurred probably double that amount.
> 
> This really isn't about the $4k contracts, and even if Christina wins, she won't get back the legal fees. It's about showing support against predatory and manipulative business practices that prey on unsuspecting authors. It's about standing together and saying, we won't be manipulated any more.
> 
> Read Izzy's post. It's more than just her story.


Thanks for sharing that; eye opening for sure. Bravo to her for coming forward.

I am kinda confused about something with the case; has David G been named as a cross-defendant by RH? I'm completely baffled after reading the Defendant's GFM which seemed kinda incoherent and focused on seemingly everything and the kitchen sink except for the actual court case, and it sounds like she is focused on suing him(DG?) and not the current case? Tell me if I've missed something at some point, because I don't see anything in the actual court case docs referring to anything she noted as the purpose for her GFM (or is this another case RH is filing?). Were other authors named after Wayne & the others were dismissed? And can anyone explain what happened with "cross-deft William Hiatt's special motion to strike"?

Good luck tomorrow Christina. Thinking of you & supporting you all the way.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

WasAnn said:


> I'm missing something...what's the defendent's GFM?


Go Fund Me  
The description of what it is for is more of a rant about DG/others and what a great person she views herself to be; it really doesn't say anything pertinent about/in defense about the actual facts of the current lawsuit. So I am curious if there are more authors who were added to the lawsuit by the Defendant, if it's an entirely separate lawsuit she's planning, or what. Lol, I've been ignoring the internet as much as possible this summer, so I'm not up to speed.


----------



## Fel Beasley

EB said:


> Go Fund Me
> The description of what it is for is more of a rant about DG/others and what a great person she views herself to be; it really doesn't say anything pertinent about/in defense about the actual facts of the current lawsuit. So I am curious if there are more authors who were added to the lawsuit by the Defendant, if it's an entirely separate lawsuit she's planning, or what. Lol, I've been ignoring the internet as much as possible this summer, so I'm not up to speed.


It's a separate lawsuit she is referring to. Whether that's specifically to DG or bringing a new suit in GA instead (for jurisdiction), I don't know. She has said both.

But this gofundme is supposed to be outside of the lawsuit with Christina. No one has been added to the counter-suit. I'm not sure if it's still possible to do so after dismissing all of the others.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Folks,

Let's keep this specifically about Christina's lawsuit, thanks.  We're going a bit astray here.  A few posts are being reviewed for pertinence.

Betsy


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Fel Beasley said:


> It's a separate lawsuit she is referring to. Whether that's specifically to DG or bringing a new suit in GA instead (for jurisdiction), I don't know. She has said both.
> 
> But this gofundme is supposed to be outside of the lawsuit with Christina. No one has been added to the counter-suit. I'm not sure if it's still possible to do so after dismissing all of the others.


Ok, I see. So I didn't miss anything, it's still just Plaintiff & Defendant in this lawsuit. 
TY


----------



## MyraScott

Today is the settlement mediation, right?  She's appearing for this negotiation she requested?

What time does it happen?

Good luck, Christina!  Whatever happens, we're on your side.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

MyraScott said:


> Today is the settlement mediation, right? She's appearing for this negotiation she requested?
> 
> What time does it happen?
> 
> Good luck, Christina! Whatever happens, we're on your side.


Seconded! Good luck!


----------



## PhoenixS

MyraScott said:


> Today is the settlement mediation, right? She's appearing for this negotiation she requested?
> 
> What time does it happen?
> 
> Good luck, Christina! Whatever happens, we're on your side.


8:45 a.m. Pacific Time


----------



## Fel Beasley

PhoenixS said:


> 8:45 a.m. Pacific Time


30 mins for those who don't want to look up time zone differences


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Any news?


----------



## Lydniz

I gather it's underway at the moment.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Thinking of you today, my friend. Stay strong, Christina. Love & support over here in Jersey ❤❤


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone. I know that you all are anxious to know what happened. The following is the statement I am allowed to make at this time:

"We have resolved this matter, and a statement will be forthcoming."


----------



## Lydniz

That sounds like good news.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone. I know that you all are anxious to know what happened. The following is the statement I am allowed to make at this time:
> 
> "We have resolved this matter, and a statement will be forthcoming."


Yay . Thought I was going to have to go to bed without hearing anything .


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Great news, resolution is a good thing!!!  So happy this is over for you!! 🎉🎉❤❤❤


----------



## lilywhite

Praise be.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Happy to hear you reached an agreement, and even more happy that you can start to put this behind you.


----------



## PhoenixS

Ooh! Sounds promising!

_(Except for that "forthcoming" -- i.e., us having to wait some more *sigh* -- part.)_

Thank you for persevering. ♥


----------



## MyraScott

However it ended up, IT'S OVER!! That is such a relief. 

Hugs and kudos, it's been a long road.


----------



## LurkingUnderARock

Congratulations, Christina. I hope that the resolution is satisfactory. I'll be on pins and needles for whatever statement you are allowed to offer for those of us who could not take the steps you did to seek recourse.


----------



## Patty Jansen

Congratulations! I'm keen to read the statement, but for now, enjoy it!


----------



## Usedtoposthere

I'm so glad to hear that, Christina. Congratulations, and I hope life starts returning to normal.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Guest

Fantastic news! So glad for you that it is over and you can move on. I hope the settlement takes into account all that you have gone through over the last year and that it involves a public apology.


----------



## Can neither confirm nor deny that I am W.R. Ginge

Congrats! And well fought! I hope the settlement is everything you expected and deserve  

(And for the community at large as well as Christina, I hope it involves a public apology)


----------



## Dionne

That's incredible news! I'm so happy for you, and thank you for defending people everywhere against this person. I donated twice because this was an important case. But none of us can take the mental and emotional burden away from you, so again, thanks for being strong for all of us. Just know that many, many, many people appreciate what you've done. xx


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


----------



## inconsequential

Such great news! Thanks for the update, and looking forward to whatever details you can share.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Reading some of the things from private groups in those exhibits really brought things to light. I'm sure the anti-SLAPP had a lot to do with the outcome. No attorney in his right mind would defend against it.

Congratulations, Christina. Not many could have handled going through this. You showed a lot of backbone and did it with poise and dignity. Proud to call you friend.


----------



## sela

Just finished reading through all the materials and wanted to say thank you and congrats on persevering and in what you have achieved for all of us indies!


----------



## unkownwriter

Wayne's right. Backbone. Christina's got it.


----------



## 75814

she-la-ti-da said:


> Wayne's right. Backbone. Christina's got it.


----------



## unkownwriter

Madea is always a lady.


----------



## Susan Stec

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey everyone. I know that you all are anxious to know what happened. The following is the statement I am allowed to make at this time:
> 
> "We have resolved this matter, and a statement will be forthcoming."


Yay! Congratulations! Thanks for hanging in there. It was a long and winding road for a lot of us, but you hung in there and made everything worthwhile. Thank you so much - forever grateful. <3


----------



## spellscribe

Does this mean the SLAPP case is also done and dusted?


----------



## Fel Beasley

spellscribe said:


> Does this mean the SLAPP case is also done and dusted?


The SLAPP case is over, as well as Christina's original lawsuit and the countersuit.

The agreement they came up with covers all legal issues between them. They are free to move on.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

So happy for you, Christina!!! 

Question: did the Defendant ever produce all the discovery items she was late on submitting, or did she settle without providing those documents? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she missed the deadline on producing discovery items in regards to her counter complaint regarding financials?)

I understand if that's not something you can disclose due to the settlement.


----------



## Guest

Has there been any public statement about this yet?


----------



## RPatton

Tilly said:


> Has there been any public statement about this yet?


Almost every settlement agreement has a clause that no one is to talk about the terms of the settlement agreement. The one time I know of the plaintiff jumping the gun to control the story and spilling the beans on the agreement, caused a legal chain of events that wasn't pretty and probably left the plaintiff in a worse position at the end of the day, including the full disclosure of the terms of the agreement, in which the Plaintiff didn't have a single advantage. It was lose lose all the way down.

While everyone would love to hear the terms, we aren't likely to know about them unless one of the party does something as monumentally stupid as sending a press release as "newspaper article" for a tabloid to publish.


----------



## Guest

RPatton said:


> Almost every settlement agreement has a clause that no one is to talk about the terms of the settlement agreement.


I'm well aware of that, but I was under the impression there would be a public statement. I also saw something happen in the last few days that made me go _huh_ and I wondered if it were connected to any such public statement.


----------



## Fel Beasley

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a public statement released yet. 

If I've learned anything this past year or so, it's that legal matters with the court take forever


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

I think I know what Tilly was intimating. It seems that not everyone can control their urge to speak. Though Christina hasn't said anything here, I have noticed that her funding page is open again. I think that might speak volumes as to what's going on behind the scene.
https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## inconsequential

What's happened? Is it allowable to say? I thought it was resolved. That was the last report Christina gave here, anyway.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## David VanDyke

inconsequential said:


> What's happened? Is it allowable to say? I thought it was resolved. That was the last report Christina gave here, anyway.


Nothing's ever over until it's really over, to paraphrase Yogi Berra.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I think I know what Tilly was intimating. It seems that not everyone can control their urge to speak. Though Christina hasn't said anything here, I have noticed that her funding page is open again. I think that might speak volumes as to what's going on behind the scene.
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


What is the date of the latest update?


----------



## Fel Beasley

Christina could still use some support from the community, even it's $1 and a note sending positive thoughts in her direction. Moral support is as helpful as financial. 

I don't want her to feel alone in this situation, and her silence on the matter at the moment is telling. 

No comment on the case or settlement or statement. 

I know when she's able, Christina will say what she can about the situation. 

For now, all we can do is wait and continue to show support until a statement is released, and this is finally over. 

On a personal note, watching the case unfold has demolished my faith in the legal system in the US.


----------



## unkownwriter

I agree that Christina can use all the support and extra funds she can get. This isn't over, sadly. I don't know why, or what's happened, but it must be egregious enough to reopen the gofundme, meaning more legal help is required.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I think I know what Tilly was intimating. It seems that not everyone can control their urge to speak. Though Christina hasn't said anything here, I have noticed that her funding page is open again. I think that might speak volumes as to what's going on behind the scene.
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


That's the conclusion I'm drawing, as well. 
I think Christina would have updated us if the settlement was reached. Clearly (IMO) something is still going on, and if lawyers are still involved then I am sure she is incurring expenses.


----------



## Elizabeth Barone

Hey Christina. *hugs you tight*


----------



## 75814

I wish I could say I found any of this surprising. Sadly, seems par for the course.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Hey everyone,

If you read through the document Boyd posted, you'll get an idea of why I haven't spoken publicly about this, and will tread very lightly here. I do want to make one thing clear, however. 

This is the stipulation to settle we signed at the MSC, not the final settlement agreement. Unfortunately, despite my attorney's best efforts, we do not yet have a signed version of the long form settlement agreement. The case will not be over until we do.


----------



## Michaela Strong

I'm very sorry this still hasn't ended for you, Christina.


----------



## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## PhoenixS

Hey Christina:

Since I've heard different versions of what the settlement means, can you either confirm or amend my understanding of the facts around how the settlement was reached (procedurally only). And if you can't say anything about any of this, I understand.

1. The term Mandatory Settlement Conference means only that attending the conference was mandatory, not that reaching a settlement was.

2. That, although the mediator was a judge, their presence was non-binding, meaning that there was no requirement for the parties to agree to any of the mediated suggestions.

3. That the judge was mediating the negotiation only, not the verbiage, of the statement. So the mediating judge had no input into the statement itself.

4. That the statement -- including what appears to be RH's full retraction -- was reached voluntarily between the parties and their attorneys, and that neither side was in any way forced to sign it.

5. That the settlement amount was reached voluntarily between the parties and their attorneys, and that neither side was in any way forced to accept it.

6. That either -- or both! -- parties could have voluntarily walked away from the table without reaching any settlement agreement at all.

7. That the MSC was simply a last-ditch effort to reach a settlement before the case went before the court in a juried trial later this year.

8. Had the parties not agreed to a settlement, the next action would have been the anti-SLAPP hearing on Sept 7. Which, if the long form isn't signed within 45 days (of Aug 24, I assume?) as the court doc states it needs to be, does that mean the anti-SLAPP will go forward?


----------



## unkownwriter

Sorry this isn't over, Christina. We're still with you, all the way.


----------



## Guest

PhoenixS said:


> 8. Had the parties not agreed to a settlement, the next action would have been the anti-SLAPP hearing on Sept 7. Which, if the long form isn't signed within 45 days (of Aug 24, I assume?) as the court doc states it needs to be, does that mean the anti-SLAPP will go forward?


If you were a cynical person... it's almost as though the settlement was used as a stalling tactic and now the anti-SLAPP court date has passed


----------



## LD

I hope this is okay to post here, but I have a somewhat related question.  How come Rebecca Hamilton's legal name was revealed during this case, but Tara Crescent's real name was able to remain hidden during the Cockygate battle?  Was it only because Rebecca Hamilton is a dba?


----------



## PhoenixS

LD said:


> I hope this is okay to post here, but I have a somewhat related question. How come Rebecca Hamilton's legal name was revealed during this case, but Tara Crescent's real name was able to remain hidden during the Cockygate battle? Was it only because Rebecca Hamilton is a dba?


The plaintiff did not know Tara Crescent's real name, and Tara was served under her pseudonym. They only had a court hearing on the case. The judge did say then, iirc, that if the case proceeded, discovery would (likely) uncover Tara's real name, and it would be made public as part of the court docs.

RH herself publicly revealed her real name, her address and one of her DBA LLCs (the one which Christina sued) in her first motion to the court. The original suit also revealed her real name and her DBA as part of the court records as the names that were originally served.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixS said:


> Hey Christina:
> 
> Since I've heard different versions of what the settlement means, can you either confirm or amend my understanding of the facts around how the settlement was reached (procedurally only). And if you can't say anything about any of this, I understand.
> 
> 1. The term Mandatory Settlement Conference means only that attending the conference was mandatory, not that reaching a settlement was.
> 
> 2. That, although the mediator was a judge, their presence was non-binding, meaning that there was no requirement for the parties to agree to any of the mediated suggestions.
> 
> 3. That the judge was mediating the negotiation only, not the verbiage, of the statement. So the mediating judge had no input into the statement itself.
> 
> 4. That the statement -- including what appears to be RH's full retraction -- was reached voluntarily between the parties and their attorneys, and that neither side was in any way forced to sign it.
> 
> 5. That the settlement amount was reached voluntarily between the parties and their attorneys, and that neither side was in any way forced to accept it.
> 
> 6. That either -- or both! -- parties could have voluntarily walked away from the table without reaching any settlement agreement at all.
> 
> 7. That the MSC was simply a last-ditch effort to reach a settlement before the case went before the court in a juried trial later this year.
> 
> 8. Had the parties not agreed to a settlement, the next action would have been the anti-SLAPP hearing on Sept 7. Which, if the long form isn't signed within 45 days (of Aug 24, I assume?) as the court doc states it needs to be, does that mean the anti-SLAPP will go forward?


Procedurally, your understanding is correct.

Should we not receive the executed settlement documents within the time allotted by the judge, he will rule on how we are to proceed.


----------



## MyraScott

Sounds like a strategy to continue driving up Christina's legal bills, despite the settlement "agreement."  

Would not surprise anyone who's watched this case unfold.


----------



## 75814

MyraScott said:


> Sounds like a strategy to continue driving up Christina's legal bills, despite the settlement "agreement."
> 
> Would not surprise anyone who's watched this case unfold.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## LD

PhoenixS said:


> The plaintiff did not know Tara Crescent's real name, and Tara was served under her pseudonym. They only had a court hearing on the case. The judge did say then, iirc, that if the case proceeded, discovery would (likely) uncover Tara's real name, and it would be made public as part of the court docs.
> 
> RH herself publicly revealed her real name, her address and one of her DBA LLCs (the one which Christina sued) in her first motion to the court. The original suit also revealed her real name and her DBA as part of the court records as the names that were originally served.


Thanks!


----------



## MyraScott

So, Rebecca Hamilton's funding page says this:



> Thank you to everyone who has donated before. More than anything, I want the bullying to end. I have done everything in my power. I have given what is not owed. I have shown compassion. I have acted through forgiveness. And in the end, nothing has worked. I wake up from panic attacks, and the stress is affecting my physical health.
> Recently I decided to let some of the legal stuff go. This was a decision made for the safety of my family, as some things were coming up that were meant to bring physical danger to my home. Only a handful of people know the specifics, and it's not something I can share publicly. It's become apparent, however, that the only way to protect my family at this point is to finally get the court to do something to help.
> Some recent events may have given us enough evidence to get the court to take action, but I'm out of money. I've been taken shark loans to pay my legal bills, and I'm out of money to borrow and already paying back more per month than I can afford. I can't do this alone. I need help.
> I have always paid it forward, and I've certainly invested in my fair share of Karma. I really just need some support right now. I'd like to be able to take this up to the right people, not just for gaining justice, but also to see if there's anything that can be done to protect my family as I don't feel safe anymore. Not when there are people who are trying to share my address with people who hate me and want to harm me. I need to show this to a JUDGE.
> Thank you for any help in making that happen.


But the statement she signed says this:

https://www.docdroid.net/QpwzGyg/stipulation-to-settle-2.pdf



> I, Rebecca Hamilton, retract all of my prior online statements about Christina Garner and will delete them, and I want to make a few things clear. This statement is one I am making willingly, in order to set the record straight.
> 
> Christina never pirated or plagiarized any of my work. She did not conspire with other authors to harm me, and any references I have made regarding bullying and/or fabricating or manipulating evidence are in no way referring to nor directed at Christina.


So, I guess we can assume the settlement is broken and the lawsuit is back on? I notice Rebecca making comments about it and Christina not, so I assume Rebecca has restarted the fight.

Anyone know?


----------



## PhoenixFromTheAshes

Wasn't the original trial date in front of a JUDGE delayed and moved out ... from October to December, iirc* ... at the request of the defendant (RH) sometime in August?

_*Looks like the trial date was removed from the case site completely once the case was deemed settled on Aug. 24, so I can't confirm my memory. 
_


----------



## unkownwriter

> I've been taken shark loans to pay my legal bills, and I'm out of money to borrow and already paying back more per month than I can afford.


I'd be more worried about loan sharks than some anonymous writers discussing this case, if you want to play the 'my family is in danger' card.


----------



## Elizabeth S.

It appears her fundraiser is for legal proceedings against someone else. The full text of it names the person specifically.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Any updates on this?


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Any updates on this?


Unfortunately, no. The final settlement papers have not been signed, and therefore the matter remains open. I wish I could say more.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Unfortunately, no. The final settlement papers have not been signed, and therefore the matter remains open. I wish I could say more.


That's a pity. I'm sorry this is taking so long.


----------



## PearlEarringLady

Christina's GoFundMe is still open too:

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## ChristinaGarner

PearlEarringLady said:


> Christina's GoFundMe is still open too:
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


That's very kind of you, and I really appreciate the continued support.

I also just noticed your signature. Deep thanks for that <3


----------



## Guest

Christina I'm not sure if you can answer this - but is there a time frame in which the settlement agreement has to be signed or the original court case can resume?

It would seem a massive loophole in the legal system if one party can refuse to sign and effectively leave the other party hanging with no resolution indefinitely. I would have thought there would be a time frame after which if not signed, it would be deemed that no settlement was reached?


----------



## PearlEarringLady

ChristinaGarner said:


> That's very kind of you, and I really appreciate the continued support.
> 
> I also just noticed your signature. Deep thanks for that <3


Lots of us out here still rooting for you. Stay strong.


----------



## Lydniz

PearlEarringLady said:


> Lots of us out here still rooting for you. Stay strong.


Seconded. I hoped you wouldn't need the support by this point, but it seems like you might.


----------



## PhoenixFromTheAshes

Tilly said:


> Christina I'm not sure if you can answer this - but is there a time frame in which the settlement agreement has to be signed or the original court case can resume?
> 
> It would seem a massive loophole in the legal system if one party can refuse to sign and effectively leave the other party hanging with no resolution indefinitely. I would have thought there would be a time frame after which if not signed, it would be deemed that no settlement was reached?


The next court date is still on the docket for Oct 24. Christina also said in September, "Should we not receive the executed settlement documents within the time allotted by the judge, he will rule on how we are to proceed."

So, if we don't hear anything sooner, I guess we'll know something more sometime Wednesday as that appears to be the deadline.

_Edited comments outside scope of thread. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


----------



## Betsy the Quilter

Locking temporarily while we review. Will reopen after review.

Thanks

Betsy
KB Mod

_ Unlocking in 3...2...1.

A reminder to keep the discussion to the actual status of the lawsuit. Discussion of people's actions outside the actual lawsuit and speculation about motives or any other comments that are deemed outside the status of the lawsuit are subject to review and removal without comment._


----------



## unkownwriter

Christina, you still have a lot of support even though many have gone from here (or reduced their presence). Since it looks like you'll be in court this week (at least in spirit), wishing you the best for a speedy resolution in your favor.


----------



## PhoenixFromTheAshes

Here's my understanding of what took place at today's case hearing, at which Christina's attorney appeared in person, while RH's attended via teleconference.

This hearing was an Order to Show Cause (OSC). The purpose of an OSC is to explain why a case that has a stipulation to settle has not yet been finalized and dismissed by the attorneys. The judge has the discretion to dismiss the case entirely, reopen it, or schedule another OSC to give the parties more time to finalize their settlement.

A stipulation is to a settlement what an engagement ring is to marriage. Both are promises, but neither means the deal is done.

As they did at the last hearing -- which resulted in the judge sending both parties off to continue working on the final settlement agreement -- RH's counsel maintained their position that the stipulation to settle is sufficient to serve as the final settlement agreement, and that RH, by posting the settlement statement and paying $9800, had fulfilled her obligations.

However, the stipulation to settle ( https://www.docdroid.net/QpwzGyg/stipulation-to-settle-2.pdf ) states that settlement is contingent upon both parties performing certain actions to be negotiated in the long form (final settlement) agreement. So, not completing the long form settlement by getting both parties to sign off on it invalidates portions of the stipulation and renders it meaningless.

Christina's attorney argued that because the terms were purposely left vague so that they could be negotiated, there was no way to determine if the terms of the stipulation to settle were met. Both parties signed the stipulation knowing there would be more negotiation to come, so RH could not now unilaterally claim that she'd fulfilled her obligations and refuse to carry through on the long form agreement.

The judge agreed and refused to dismiss the case.

Christina's attorney advised the judge that both parties have been attempting to work out the final details, but 12 hours before the hearing (and after business hours), she was presented with a further demand for changes -- some of them to clauses that had been signed off on by RH's attorney two months ago.

So, after two months and now back to square one, Christina's attorney asked the judge for help. She saw two ways forward:

1) The case judge could send the parties back to the MSC judge (where the stipulation was reached) to hammer out the final details. (MSC = Mandatory Settlement Conference, where "mandatory" means the parties must attend, not that reaching a settlement is mandatory.)

And/Or

2) She could immediately return the $9800 RH had paid (it was still being held in the attorney's escrow account since the case wasn't officially settled yet), and the judge could reopen the case and place the trial back on the calendar.

The judge opted not to put the case back on the calendar at this time, but can do so in the future if a settlement can't be reached.

Opting for Option 1, the judge ordered both parties back to the MSC judge for another attempt at coming to a final agreement.

The MSC hasn't been scheduled yet, but another OSC hearing has been scheduled for 2/4/19. That means the MSC will need to be held before then.

More time. More attorneys fees piling up on both sides.

Note that the money RH paid continues to remain in an escrow account until this case is fully settled and dismissed. Note also that the $9800 is nowhere close to the amount this case has cost so far.

Christina's Go Fund Me page remains open:
https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for the update. Big *sigh* about more lengthy negotiations.


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Oh my gosh! How awful! To have thought that you were so near an ending and then sent back to Go. Thanks for the update and summary, Phoenix. Very appreciated.


----------



## unkownwriter

Thanks for the update and explanation, Phoenix. Poor Christina. I feel so sorry this continues to be unsettled.


----------



## Guest

A reminder to the community that this matter is still ongoing (despite any statements you may have seen to the contrary) and Christina still needs our support. Any little bit helps as the case continues and drags into 2019.

https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Tilly said:


> A reminder to the community that this matter is still ongoing (despite any statements you may have seen to the contrary) and Christina still needs our support. Any little bit helps as the case continues and drags into 2019.
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


Thanks, Tilly. The next court hearing is in February. Per the judge's order, we will be appearing before the MSC judge before then in hopes of finalizing the settlement.


----------



## Wayne Stinnett

Tilly said:


> A reminder to the community that this matter is still ongoing (despite any statements you may have seen to the contrary) and Christina still needs our support. Any little bit helps as the case continues and drags into 2019.
> 
> https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


Thanks for the reminder, Tilly.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Let's not forget this ongoing saga still needs support, even if it's just a few encouraging words for Christina. I hope February will bring some finality to this.


----------



## Morgan Worth

I'm so sorry to see that this case is continuing to drag on. Thank you for the update!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Christina, wishing you all the best for 2019 and a good final result  .


----------



## notjohn

Might be an appropriate time to re-read _Bleak House_!


----------



## unkownwriter

Christina, still behind you all the way and hoping for a good resolution to this mess, and soon.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Dear Community,

The final settlement papers have finally been signed, and I can now speak freely about all that has occurred.

Because I want very much to stay on the right side of the mods, to whom I owe a huge debt of gratitude for allowing this thread to stay open, I am only posting the details of the settlement and what certain clauses mean, as well as what's still to come procedurally. (The case has not been formally dismissed, but should be soon.)

For those who would like a more detailed explanation of why it took 5 months to formally settle -- *after* the stipulation to settle was signed in August -- I am drafting a post and will share the link when it's ready.

On January 23, 2019, I received a signed copy of the final "long form" settlement document from the defendant. This document supersedes anything prior.

It's dense and filled with legalese, so I've highlight the more relevant portions. I'll explain what each of them means below. For those who would like to read the whole thing, you can find it here: https://www.docdroid.net/cksV7zD



> Financial Settlement. In full and final settlement of the Dispute and in exchange of the releases and other promises set forth herein and throughout, the Parties have agreed to settle the Dispute in exchange for payment by the Raywood Parties of ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00) to Garner... Garner has agreed to credit the settlement amount by two hundred dollars ($200.00) applicable to Raywood's hotel bill


My attorney has kept this money in her trust account since August. It will be used to help offset the final legal bills. I'd like to make it clear I did not profit from this case.



> The Parties have agreed to delete their respective online comments pursuant to the Mutual Statement


I'll be posting the mutual statement below. In it, you'll see that the defendant has made a full and complete retraction and must delete all of her online posts, while I have made no retraction and only agreed to delete Facebook and twitter posts. (I did not make a habit of discussing the case on either platform, and thus far, I have found only two Facebook posts linking to my fundraising page, which I have deleted.)

Deleting my KBoards posts was the request of the defendant, but I refused. The entire purpose of this litigation was to end the silence. Were I to allow myself to be silenced just to settle the case, this all would have been for nothing. The KBoards threads will serve as information for those who want it for as long as KBoards allows.

I'd like to point out what is not in the document: a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). One was requested, and I refused for the above reasons given about being silenced. Additionally, as I explained to my attorney, this has been a group effort from the beginning, and I owe it to the community who has stood by me for two long years to give the truth of what happened.



> If any proceeding is brought for the enforcement or interpretation of this Agreement, including the Raywood Parties or Garner bringing any type of claim, or filing any action concerning, involving or otherwise related to the Dispute, against the other, in any jurisdiction, whether State or Federal, after execution of this Settlement Agreement, the prevailing party shall be entitled to recover their reasonable attorney fees and costs incurred in connection with that proceeding in addition to any other costs or relief to which the party may be entitled.


This means if there is any further litigation regarding this matter, the loser must pay the winner's attorney's fees.



> Each of the Parties hereto acknowledge and agree that this Agreement, including the Mutual Statement, is the product of mutual negotiation and drafting by each of the Parties hereto, and therefore any uncertainty or ambiguity in this Agreement shall not be interpreted or construed against or in favor of any Party. The Parties further acknowledge that they have entered into this Agreement knowingly and willingly, and reaffirm the veracity of the Mutual Statement and agree they will not make any online statements to retract the same.


The last sentence was vitally important to me. With the defendant's full retraction, my name is cleared of the accusations made against me. We both affirm the mutual statement is true, and it must stand as is -- without backpedalling or denials -- or it is a breach of the agreement.

Here is the mutually agreed to statement:



> We, Christina Garner and Rebecca Hamilton, (legal name, Shana Raywood) have reached a settlement in our legal dispute.
> 
> I, Rebecca Hamilton, retract all of my prior online statements about Christina Garner and will delete them, and I want to make a few things clear. This statement is one that I am making willingly, in order to set the record straight. Christina never pirated nor plagiarized any of my work. She did not conspire with other authors to harm me, and any references I have made regarding bullying and/or fabricating or manipulating evidence are in no way referring to nor directed at Christina. She did not break Amazon's Terms of Service, and I maintain that I did not do so knowingly.
> 
> And I, Christina Garner, will delete my funding page as well as any Facebook or Twitter posts referencing Rebecca Hamilton. I initiated this lawsuit to settle the dispute arising from our differing positions regarding the agreements between Rebecca and myself, including all related claims, and to clear my name. Through this settlement, our dispute has been resolved.
> 
> We are both grateful to put this behind us and move on to more constructive things and encourage everyone to do the same.


It should not have cost what it did to finally get justice, and through this process, my eyes have been opened to the realities of the legal system. Prior to this case, I worked freelance part of the year and wrote the rest. Because of this case, I had to work back to back full time jobs and haven't published in well over a year. Truth be told, I'm exhausted. But it's never wrong to fight for the truth, and after everything, I still believe it was a fight worth having.

Now we get to the really important part. You.

Speaking with my father the other night, I started crying while discussing what all of you have done for me. There is no scenario in which I could have or would have done this alone. Your continued support, donations, and words of encouragement have fueled me throughout this entire process, and I can never adequately express my gratitude nor repay my debt. When I think of the people who had no prior dealings with the defendant and were named in a countersuit for supporting me, I feel terrible and still can't get my head around it.

While it's true, I am looking forward to moving on from this situation, I will never move on from this community and the friendships I have made. I will never forget what you all have done for me, and remain deeply humbled that you placed your trust in me in the first place. Words aren't enough, but please know my heart is full of thanks for each of you.

Feel free to ask any questions you have. If I feel the answer might fall outside of the scope permitted by the mods, I'll answer it in the longer post I'm drafting which will be hosted offsite.

Again, thank you.

(edited b/c I forgot to strip the symbols)


----------



## Lydniz

I'm so pleased it's over, Christina, and only sorry it took so long.


----------



## Vidya

Congratulations, Christina! I’m  happy the defendant has made a full and complete retraction and you’ve been vindicated.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Lydniz said:


> I'm so pleased it's over, Christina, and only sorry it took so long.


Thank you, Lydniz. I agree on both counts.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Vidya said:


> Congratulations, Christina! I'm happy the defendant has made a full and complete retraction and you've been vindicated.


Thank you! I am as well. (And that hopefully, after a few weeks, I never have to think of this again!)


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

What a relief all round that it's finally over and your name is cleared. I hope 2019 will be the beginning of a stress-free year for you and that you can get back to your writing (you now have a lot more plot lines to work with )


----------



## inconsequential

Great news! So happy for you that this is finally over!


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## lilywhite

Okay, there's a lot to unpack here (though I think we should just throw the whole ****ing suitcase out), but I can't *not* comment on the fact that, after ALL THE MONEY YOU BOTH BURNED, she nickel-and-dimed you for the hotel stay?


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## ChristinaGarner

lilywhite said:


> Okay, there's a lot to unpack here (though I think we should just throw the whole ****ing suitcase out), but I can't *not* comment on the fact that, after ALL THE MONEY YOU BOTH BURNED, she nickel-and-dimed you for the hotel stay?


Haha. YUP. My attorney requested the receipt months ago and has yet to receive it.


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## Monique

I'm soooooo happy this has finally resolved in your favor. You took great personal and professional risk in standing up for what was right. I know I've been humbled by your steadfastness and awed by the support of the community.


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## ChristinaGarner

Monique said:


> I'm soooooo happy this has finally resolved in your favor. You took great personal and professional risk in standing up for what was right. I know I've been humbled by your steadfastness and awed by the support of the community.


Thank you, Monique. (And Jan and inconsequential!)

I've been awed by the community as well. There really are no adequate words to convey my thanks.


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## Medea is not a victim type

Sincere congratulations, Christina. You fought the good fight and won.


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## 39416

I think you're the first Plaintiff I've ever heard of in this type of a case who didn't cave on the NDA.

Is she still banned from Amazon or did she find a way back in?


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## Lydniz

loraininflorida said:


> Is she still banned from Amazon or did she find a way back in?


She's publishing on Amazon through a publishing company.


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## 39416

Ooooo.... Do they offer box set deals?? (Only kidding!)


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## Lydniz

loraininflorida said:


> Ooooo.... Do they offer box set deals?? (Only kidding!)


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## ChristinaGarner

loraininflorida said:


> I think you're the first Plaintiff I've ever heard of in this type of a case who didn't cave on the NDA.


I told my attorney it was non-negotiable from the very start. I don't plan to continue speaking about this case and am eager to put it behind me, but this case began as public, and I owed it to everyone who has supported me to give a full picture of the resolution.


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## CassieL

Glad to see the case is finally settled. Hope this is the end of things and you can move forward with all of it behind you.


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## Guest

I’m so glad to hear that finally an end is in sight for you. Also so sorry for what you had to go through to get to this point. When you strip everything away this was about a book promoter who refused to offer refunds when services were not performed. Imagine how easily all of this could have been avoided if that business gave no hassle refunds.


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## Sapphire

The exhaustion may take a while to wear off, but I know it will. You are so strong!


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## Becca Mills

Stepping in with a reminder that discussion of Hamilton's activities outside this case's legal filings is not allowed. Factual questions and answers about the settlement's terms are fine.


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## PhoenixFromTheAshes

As lily says, there's so much in the long settlement doc to unpack. But one thing very clear to me from following the case is that RH had stated multiple times "no settlement," and that it was her desire to bring this matter in front of a judge. Something she was willing to do not just once but multiple times, hence the multiple parties to the countersuit. Which, remember, while all the other parties had been released from the countersuit, Christina had not been.

It wasn't mandatory that RH settle. No judge forced her to. Nor was the settlement wording dictated by a judge -- it was negotiated between her, Christina and their lawyers. And yet, with another court date in front of the judge only days away, RH not only signed away her right to the counterclaim she'd filed asking for -- what was it, $300,000? -- from Christina, but re-confirmed paying settlement costs to her.

One question I do have, Christina, is that while I understand there's not a non-_disclosure_ agreement attached, isn't a non-_disparagement_ clause customary? Or did I miss seeing that in the settlement doc?



Tilly said:


> I'm so glad to hear that finally an end is in sight for you. Also so sorry for what you had to go through to get to this point. When you strip everything away this was about a book promoter who refused to offer refunds when services were not performed. Imagine how easily all of this could have been avoided if that business gave no hassle refunds.


You know, that's not what I see when I strip everything away. I think that vision is way, way too easy. And, not to speak for Christina, but I'm not sure there would have been a case if it were ever as simple as that. Which is where I'll leave it because...Kboards.


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## PearlEarringLady

So happy that this is finally over! You are an inspiration to us all, Christina.

ETA: Still time to donate: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community


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## Flay Otters

Congratulations on this finally being over!


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## Can neither confirm nor deny that I am W.R. Ginge

SO glad to hear it, Christina! Well done, and I'm glad you were able to hold on


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## MyraScott

Before it goes away, you can still help: https://www.gofundme.com/6we7rk-it-takes-a-community

I just want to say, I'm glad the nightmare is over. Because it drug out so long, I think we all tend to forget what things were like before Christina took a stand against unfair and misleading practices.

This was a huge step to take on the part of indie authors and as far as I know, is the only case where an unethical book promoter has been successfully sued.

It generated a lot of attention. It broke the silence. It allowed people who were terrified of personal and professional attacks to speak up a chance to be heard.

It took a chunk of Christina's life and a boatload of resources, not to mention the ongoing attacks and twists that would drain anyone's spirit.

A lot of people were wronged, but Christina carried the banner for all in a battle that really was all-consuming. I look forward to reading the full story- I suspect there's a lot more under the surface.


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## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixFromTheAshes said:


> It wasn't mandatory that RH settle. No judge forced her to. Nor was the settlement wording dictated by a judge -- it was negotiated between her, Christina and their lawyers. And yet, with another court date in front of the judge only days away, RH not only signed away her right to the counterclaim she'd filed asking for -- what was it, $300,000? -- from Christina, but re-confirmed paying settlement costs to her.
> 
> One question I do have, Christina, is that while I understand there's not a non-_disclosure_ agreement attached, isn't a non-_disparagement_ clause customary? Or did I miss seeing that in the settlement doc


You've made an astute observation, and yes, a non-disparagement clause is standard in a defamation case and would have protected both parties.

At the MSC, where the details of payment as well as the statement were finalized and the stipulation to settle was signed, one of the many things to be hammered out in the long form document were the details of a non-disparagement clause.

Unfortunately, the very first draft of the long form (final) settlement was rejected. We were blindsided at being told under no circumstances would the defendant sign a non-disparagement clause of any kind. Again, wanting to stay on the right side of the mods, I won't say more on this forum except that no matter how many times we modified the clause and offered the defendant's counsel do the same, it was rejected.


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## Wayne Stinnett

lilywhite said:


> Okay, there's a lot to unpack here (though I think we should just throw the whole ****ing suitcase out), but I can't *not* comment on the fact that, after ALL THE MONEY YOU BOTH BURNED, she nickel-and-dimed you for the hotel stay?


I think the legal term is "parting shot."

So glad this is over, Christina. I know what a financial and emotional drain it's been. You took this magnificently. And did it for the community. As you said, time to move on. But not before I can add my thanks for taking the lumps.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I think the legal term is "parting shot."
> 
> So glad this is over, Christina. I know what a financial and emotional drain it's been. You took this magnificently. And did it for the community. As you said, time to move on. But not before I can add my thanks for taking the lumps.


Would like to also thank you, Wayne, for your financial and emotional support in all of this.


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## C. Gold

I'm very happy this has been resolved and everyone can finally put it behind them and go back to writing. Or relaxing!


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## PhoenixFromTheAshes

C. Gold said:


> I'm very happy this has been resolved and everyone can finally put it behind them and go back to writing. Or relaxing!


Personally, I'm very much ready for Christina to go back to writing. She's earned it, and more.

The rest of us? THERE IS STILL SO MUCH CLEANUP TO BE DONE. Why do WE get to rest when she's done all the work


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## unkownwriter

Monique said:


> I'm soooooo happy this has finally resolved in your favor. You took great personal and professional risk in standing up for what was right. I know I've been humbled by your steadfastness and awed by the support of the community.


So much this!^^^

The indie community will always be grateful you took this on and kept going even when there didn't seem to be an end in sight. Like you said, people needed to be able to talk about this, and though it's not going to be here, there's a whole lot of Internet out there. It won't be forgotten.


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## BrentNichols

I'm deeply, deeply impressed with you, Christina. Thank you so much for taking a stand and refusing to waver. You've made things better for all of us.


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## ChristinaGarner

Just a quick note to say thank you for all of the kind words and congratulations. 

Before this experience, I didn't know how expensive justice could be--both financially and emotionally. I never would have gotten it without your help. 

The irony is that the retraction the defendant gave in our joint statement covers the same ground as the retraction I asked for in the initial demand letter sent in May of 2017 that went unanswered. Had she been willing to make this same statement then, we would have avoided this lawsuit altogether.

I have been and remain humbled by your support.


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## PhoenixFromTheAshes

Oh, I do have another question for Christina.

From the calendar of events, it seems that RH received her list of Discovery questions and then the anti-slapp hearing was scheduled a couple of months(?) later. But, between those times, the first settlement conference (MSC) took place where y'all agreed on the short form, and then the anti-slapp was put on hold because it looked like a settlement was being reached. 

So, whatever happened with Discovery? I'm assuming you had to pay your attorney to draft the questions and send them out. The answers, I'm assuming, would certainly have been due before the anti-slapp hearing. Weren't they also due before the MSC took place? Did you get the answers? Were they sealed?

Inquiring minds...umm...inquire!


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## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixFromTheAshes said:


> Oh, I do have another question for Christina.
> 
> From the calendar of events, it seems that RH received her list of Discovery questions and then the anti-slapp hearing was scheduled a couple of months(?) later. But, between those times, the first settlement conference (MSC) took place where y'all agreed on the short form, and then the anti-slapp was put on hold because it looked like a settlement was being reached.
> 
> So, whatever happened with Discovery? I'm assuming you had to pay your attorney to draft the questions and send them out. The answers, I'm assuming, would certainly have been due before the anti-slapp hearing. Weren't they also due before the MSC took place? Did you get the answers? Were they sealed?
> 
> Inquiring minds...umm...inquire!


Discovery was served, and the defendant did not answer a single question--her attorney objecting to each one. An interesting choice for someone who claimed to want nothing more than to show her evidence in court. When given the opportunity, she refused to provide even a single screenshot to support her claims.

Had the case continued, we would have been forced to ask the judge to compel the answers. Discovery is not optional, and while a judge might rule a specific question too broad, etc., one is not given the option to wholesale ignore discovery requests.

Keep in mind, the defendant refused to answer despite the fact that I had answered their questions and provided several hundred screenshots at their request. I am told she objected to providing her home address, even though they'd asked the same and more of me: my driver's license number, a list of my medications, my mental health history, etc.

How she justified it as ok to ask me these questions but not answer them herself, I don't know. I do know my attorney informed hers that she already knew the defendant's new address and had, of course, not shared it with anyone. Add to that the facts:

1. Discovery is not automatically made public nor part of the court record
2. To put her at ease, we agreed that answer and others of a similar sensitive nature could be under seal

I can only speculate as to her real objections to answering discovery. She did confirm in the official settlement document that any references to bullying, conspiring to harm, and/or physical danger to her home were neither about nor directed at me, so we know it wasn't that.


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## David VanDyke

Watch a few seasons of Suits and all of these tactics eventually show up in the scripts. 

*The below is purely a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, or real situations, is purely coincidental.*

A patently unethical, win-at-all-costs personality will tend to hire patently unethical, win-at-all-costs lawyers.

*The above is purely a general observation, not aimed at anyone in particular. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, or real situations, is purely coincidental.*

Karma will out.


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## PhoenixFromTheAshes

Definitely sounds like a way to prolong a case and suck more money from the other side, especially if you're really not wanting to get in front of a judge. Although I also find the timing interesting -- that she'd pull that with Discovery and then on top of that ensure she started settlement talks the week before the first anti-slapp hearing. Lots can assuredly be read into that move.

Thanks for the answer (and for not stonewalling and objecting to it!).

Has the case been officially dismissed yet? And is there a way someone can help with the last out-of-pocket expenses (I assume you're still in the red on lawyer fees) since your GFM page is now down?


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## ChristinaGarner

PhoenixFromTheAshes said:


> Definitely sounds like a way to prolong a case and suck more money from the other side, especially if you're really not wanting to get in front of a judge. Although I also find the timing interesting -- that she'd pull that with Discovery and then on top of that ensure she started settlement talks the week before the first anti-slapp hearing. Lots can assuredly be read into that move.
> 
> Thanks for the answer (and for not stonewalling and objecting to it!).
> 
> Has the case been officially dismissed yet? And is there a way someone can help with the last out-of-pocket expenses (I assume you're still in the red on lawyer fees) since your GFM page is now down?


I am pleased to say the case was dismissed by the judge at the OSC hearing on 2/04. This matter is officially settled which brings me great relief.

Shutting down my GoFundMe was one of the defendant's conditions of settlement, and I did so once the statement had been posted the full 7 days as required.

You are so kind to ask about further donations and for acknowledging that as incredibly generous as the community has been, the legal bills outpaced what I raised (less platform fees). A few of you have reached out privately as well, and I thank you, too, for the support and concern.

None of this should have been necessary from the start. It should not have taken two years to get what was right from the beginning. But this lasted far longer than any of us could have ever imagined when it began, and I alone made the choice to keep going, regardless of the consequences--personally, professionally, and financially.

While I'm out of pocket, I've made peace with the amount. To be honest, it's the time I lost needing to work a constant day job that has been the most damaging, because it took me away from writing and promoting my work.

There's no need for any further donations--the generosity you all have shown is already far more than enough. Because of you, I could take on this fight in the first place <3


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## unkownwriter

Christina, you are an awesome woman! I'm not alone in admiring your courage and strength throughout this ordeal, and I wish you the very best in your personal and professional life.

Hopefully people will remain vigilant and catch any further wrongdoing, should it occur.


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## Becca Mills

A reminder that this thread is appropriate for factual questions and answers about the suit/settlement and messages of support and appreciation. Thanks!


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## Wayne Stinnett

Happy birthday, Christina!


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## ChristinaGarner

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Happy birthday, Christina!


Thanks, Wayne. Year is off to a great start so far


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## unkownwriter

Hey, wait. Christina's birthday was the 21st? Mine is the 22nd (and one sister's is the 20th). Happy belated birthday, Christina!


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