# KU: In or Out (if you have to choose 1)



## ChelseaChaynes (May 18, 2014)

Just a quick gauge to see how people feel about this service. Personally, I am out.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Seeing I already have two books in Select, I'll see how it goes. Not sure if I'll extend at the end of this month or not, we'll see.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm already in Select (because I make so much money off borrows) so I'm holding still for at least two weeks to see how things shake out. I've already seen higher borrows and my sales are holding steady (although were slightly down yesterday -- but I think a lot of people's were, Friday has been bad for me all summer). I'm just taking the wait-and-see approach.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm in with a few titles to see how it goes.  Since everyone's experience is going to be individual, there's no way to find out how it will impact you except to try it.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

You need a third option for those of us who are partially in to try it out, but not with all books.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

All my books are in - although they don't all appear to have the KU logo yet.


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

Out.  I make too much money on other platforms to go exclusive.  B&N has been especially good this summer.  And I'm gaining traction on Google a little more each month.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Jan,
I just looked at your books.  All but Major Medical has the KU tag.


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## Evan J (Feb 3, 2014)

I think I'm in. I've got a bulge of erotica shorts I'm bringing to market over the next two weeks, and I think they're all going into Select. I don't make anything hardly anyways. But if this is the new big wave, I'm not going to be stuck on the shoreline.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

All in with 34 titles and I'm not budging for at least six months.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Jan,
> I just looked at your books. All but Major Medical has the KU tag.


Look at mine....Look at mine.

Pretty please.

Philip


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm annoyed that I have to rejoin Select right after getting into all the othe markets. I literally just landed in the iTunes store the day before KU was announced.

BUT, seeing as I haven't sold more than a few units outside of Amazon combined, I'm pulling all my titles and trying out KU.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

All out, but I'm planning to write some drivel and toss it in just to see what happens.


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## Victoria LK (Jan 31, 2014)

Since I'm already in Kindle Select, that means I'm in Unlimited too.   It will be interesting to see what happens.  The timing is good for me, because I'm hopeful that my next book will be ready to publish by the end of the 30 days, and that will help me decide if I should add it the unlimited availability.  We shall see...


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

I voted "out" because I don't have any books in Select at the moment. But that doesn't mean I won't have a mix in the future (my general strategy is to put new releases in Select and then move them out). However, I won't be moving any of my current titles back in.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I have more books out than in.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Jan,
> I just looked at your books. All but Major Medical has the KU tag.


Thanks . They seem to have suddenly appeared. Perhaps they were doing them in batches or something


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## Kwalker (Aug 23, 2012)

If I had to be all or nothing, it would be nothing.
Both of my series have established readers on other platforms. Itunes has been really good to me the last two months.

But I have one book that just won't do anything, and I'm going to put it in to try it out.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

katherinef said:


> All out, but I'm planning to write some drivel and toss it in just to see what happens.


Please don't write drivel


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Philip Gibson said:


> Look at mine....Look at mine.
> 
> Pretty please.
> 
> Philip


All except Berlin 45 seem to be in.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

Two of my five novels are in.


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> All except Berlin 45 seem to be in.


Thanks a lot. Odd that #Berlin45 isn't in since that's the only one that's had borrows (2) today after weeks with no borrows. I guess people in different parts are seeing different things until the system settles down.

I'm guessing it shows as in in the U.S.

Philip


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## Robert Dahlen (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm actually glad that I don't have to choose yet, since my first book's still waiting on a cover. I'll watch and see how everything shakes down. If I had to choose right now, based on the genre I'm working in (adventure fantasy), I'd be out unless I saw it was helping others writing books like mine.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

In with my "work in progress" by episodes till it's finished. Then out.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

How's come there's no "Bi-Selectual" option on this poll?


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

LisaGloria said:


> How's come there's no "Bi-Selectual" option on this poll?


Precisely.


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## Michael Kingswood (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm not in select and I don't plan to be.

All my stuff's at Scribd and Oyster though.  If KU didn't require exclusivity I'd probably go in, because why not?  It taps a different market segment, and that's not a bad thing.


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## tknite (Feb 18, 2014)

Out. I took Othella out of Select today, thanks to Amazon's generous offer to allow us to jump ship on Select early if we don't want to use KU. I may put stand alone titles in KU (as Amazon "Exclusives" or something) at some point, but I'm not limiting my series books to one retailer. Othella was in Select for a one cycle test run to contrast its performance with Echoes, which went multi-retailer right off the bat. But I've already tired of that little experiment, and I want to get Othella onto other retailers ASAP.

KU has given me that opportunity. So I will use it.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

We want bi...

If ever there was a time to experiment with distribution, now is it. It's the heart of the slow season, both Oyster and Scribd are doing well according to Smashwords. Amazon's offering is limited to US only, but then again, it's the biggest market and both Oyster and scribd also have boundaries (Oyster began as iOS only and only recently released android, still no PC, while scribd has no shorter works or erotica).

So yeah, I think it prudent to have at least some skin in the game. If it all fails, I can have everything back to normal by November, just in time for the peak season.


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## John Ellsworth (Jun 1, 2014)

Talk about "fair" for a minute. How fair is it to ask me to sell my product but not tell me how much I'm selling for. That's essentially what KU is asking me to do and I don't appreciate it. There needs to be a floor below which the royalty per sale won't fall, a kind of price support if KU is getting the benefit of my output to make their money from subscribers who subscribe to access my (and your) output. Amazon knows how much it's getting for its KU books--$9.95/month. Why don't we get to know that too? It's impossible to make a business judgment about this event without having an either/or scenario. Right now there's a maybe/or scenario and I don't like it. That's why I don't roll the dice in Vegas and yet I'm being asked to roll the dice with KU. 
You can say that you're going to "wait and see" but there's nothing to wait for, because the bottom line, the per unit earn, is ambiguous month after month.

I don't like to gamble. The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to say no to it.

Convince me otherwise.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

John Ellsworth said:


> Talk about "fair" for a minute. How fair is it to ask me to sell my product but not tell me how much I'm selling for. That's essentially what KU is asking me to do and I don't appreciate it. There needs to be a floor below which the royalty per sale won't fall, a kind of price support if KU is getting the benefit of my output to make their money from subscribers who subscribe to access my (and your) output. Amazon knows how much it's getting for its KU books--$9.95/month. Why don't we get to know that too? It's impossible to make a business judgment about this event without having an either/or scenario. Right now there's a maybe/or scenario and I don't like it. That's why I don't roll the dice in Vegas and yet I'm being asked to roll the dice with KU.
> You can say that you're going to "wait and see" but there's nothing to wait for, because the bottom line, the per unit earn, is ambiguous month after month.
> 
> I don't like to gamble. The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to say no to it.
> ...


As I plan on uploading my work in progress to KOLL/KU as I write it, the choice is, "get paid as I write" or, "don't get paid as I write. Hmmm...Tough one...


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

Well said, John.  If a traditional publisher were offering these terms we'd be yelling at the top of our indie lungs.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Never again the Select times.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> Never again the Select times.


Understanding you not am I.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

John Ellsworth said:


> Talk about "fair" for a minute. How fair is it to ask me to sell my product but not tell me how much I'm selling for. That's essentially what KU is asking me to do and I don't appreciate it. There needs to be a floor below which the royalty per sale won't fall, a kind of price support if KU is getting the benefit of my output to make their money from subscribers who subscribe to access my (and your) output. Amazon knows how much it's getting for its KU books--$9.95/month. Why don't we get to know that too? It's impossible to make a business judgment about this event without having an either/or scenario. Right now there's a maybe/or scenario and I don't like it. That's why I don't roll the dice in Vegas and yet I'm being asked to roll the dice with KU.
> You can say that you're going to "wait and see" but there's nothing to wait for, because the bottom line, the per unit earn, is ambiguous month after month.
> 
> I don't like to gamble. The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to say no to it.
> ...


This is exactly what I've been pondering as well. I can't seem to find what price authors get for this? Anyone?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

I think this move by amazon is an extremely anti-competitive, despicable decision. I dont care what scribd and oyster are doing, they will never be amazon. I don't think forcing people to be exclusive to amazon solves their problem. 

30% of my income is from other sources than amazon. When there is a FACT like that I must look at this and ask myself whether forsaking all other channels and publishing exclusively with amazon will make up for that loss in sales. Of course we can no longer do that if we don't know what a royalty on a borrow will be, and neither does amazon or they would have told us. 

Do i believe that i will get a 30% REVENUE increase on amazon alone by remaining exclusive? No, I don't.

If that royalty is LESS THAN 2 dollars then not only have i not recouped the 30% revenue i am shunning elsewhere but i am lowering my average residual through amazon and relying on an even greater than 30% increase in sales to make me whole. 

ON THE FLIPSIDE...

If my sales decline catastrophically i may be FORCED into the unlimited market in order to keep up. This is one of the boldest, most ruthless moves ive seen yet. i think we need to stand up for our products and not allow them to heavy hand us like this.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Already opted out. I think competition is healthy for business. I have nothing against Amazon, but one business controlling my entire career? How is that different than signing with a traditional publisher? In fact, for all writers know, the royalties will be less than traditional publishers offer.  Besides, I imagine the other big ones like B&N will come up with something to keep their readers happy without demanding exclusivity, since they've publicly slammed Amazon for doing so many times.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

people who want "bi" option are going to be putting their underperforming work into KU and will ultimatley find that whatever is causing it not to sell now will cause it not to sell in the future, and the reader will start getting turned off from unlimited. I wont deny it, I hope this scheme fails, though i doubt it will.

For all those saying YES to this pole. Smashwords is a great service and using permarfree through them has catapulted me to a new level of success, and now that is being threatened with this move. Without the content producers buy in, kindle unlimited doesnt exist.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Every month, Select has a pool and nobody knows what the per-unit share will be. So every author in there has already agreed to a certain amount of uncertainty, moderately mitigated by the fact that it's been historically consistent.

Now, kinda the same pool, kinda the same terms. It could change. I'm not concerned because:

*Same Coke, different can* - Amazon has never said the pool was a percentage of anything. Yet, it's always about the same payout. That indicates (IMO) that Zon feels our threshold for participation is $2 a read. Why would that change immediately?

*We are cannon fodder* - We aren't the intended victims - Scribd and Oyster are. I don't think they're keeping that information from us specifically (because they always kept that info from us). I think they're keeping the information from their competitors so that they cannot respond.

Something tells me this is far from over. Between Scribd's stiff upper lip PR and Oyster's hollow attaboy's... and Mark Coker's "think of the children!"... there's other stuff gonna happen! How will the competition respond? How will we respond?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

We have never known the borrow rate in Select. I stole this from a guy who posted it on the KDP boards. These were the payouts for borrows over the past few months:

Jan - $1.93
Feb - $2.24
Mar - $2.10
Apr - $2.24
May - $2.17
Jun - $2.24

Amazon has always made an effort to keep the borrow money relatively even. We will not know if the amount increases or decreases until we get the monthly report in August (and that's almost a month away). I'm waiting to see. All I can say, on a personal level, is that my author ranking has jumped almost 1,000 points in two days -- and for me alone -- I'm happy with that. My sales are not hurting (in fact, they seem to be slightly higher today but it's too soon to see how things will even out), my borrows are just going up. I was already Select exclusive. I'm going to see how everything plays out before I start building an ark.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

yodaoneforme said:


> I'm already in Select (because I make so much money off borrows) so I'm holding still for at least two weeks to see how things shake out. I've already seen higher borrows and my sales are holding steady (although were slightly down yesterday -- but I think a lot of people's were, Friday has been bad for me all summer). I'm just taking the wait-and-see approach.


My sales were up yesterday. I'm not in KU.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> people who want "bi" option are going to be putting their underperforming work into KU and will ultimatley find that whatever is causing it not to sell now will cause it not to sell in the future, and the reader will start getting turned off from unlimited. I wont deny it, I hope this scheme fails, though i doubt it will.
> 
> For all those saying YES to this pole. Smashwords is a great service and using permarfree through them has catapulted me to a new level of success, and now that is being threatened with this move. Without the content producers buy in, kindle unlimited doesnt exist.


I find your assumption that if I put work into KU it must be because it's underperforming, mildly insulting.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

VMた said:


> My sales were up yesterday. I'm not in KU.


Friday has been my worst day of the week all summer. It's nothing new for me. Saturdays, Sundays and Mondays are my gravy days. Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays are kind of "meh." Fridays have just been down for me for the past six weeks. It is what it is. I've given up trying to figure out why.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

payout will be based on the pool of 2 million. Your reads make up a % of that pool, and that is how it is metered.

In defense of select there website does say they will change the size of the pool to make it marketable to authors -  so that is in the early adopters favor, but well see how it plays out.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

alondo, 

was not intented to be insulting, that is what some people have been saying on the boards. Think about it though. If you have a great book, why limit to select when it will likely do very well in other channels? people are testing the waters with under performing works.


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## John Ellsworth (Jun 1, 2014)

What's really troubling me today is that tomorrow my first book in the series comes off Select--if I uncheck the box. As a relative newbie, I was going to be okay with leaving it in Select for another 90, but now, since they want to use my book but won't tell me how much I'm getting per use, it's difficult for me to underwrite their game for another 90 days during which they sure as heck won't let me out, once i re-commit, I'm fairly certain.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> alondo,
> 
> was not intented to be insulting, that is what some people have been saying on the boards. Think about it though. If you have a great book, why limit to select when it will likely do very well in other channels? people are testing the waters with under performing works.


That may be what some are doing, but it's not what I'm doing. Putting work out there as I write it means for the first time ever, I'm getting paid to write. Plus I'm building an audience as I write it. What's not to like?


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

I want to say this nicely, so if it comes out any other way, please read it in Snow White's voice:

In the last 20 years in the dot com world... since the time when you had to pay for a browser... since before there was a Google OR an Amazon... I've seen a lot of Internet ships come in, and then leave the port. I almost caught the boat a few times, but ended up missing it. Hopefully I've learned a few things.

This is a boat, and a big one. You can tell, because it's surrounded by people wearing end-of-the-world sandwich boards. Those people have very little but rhetorical fallacies to try to convince people to not make a 90-day commitment on some small part of their inventory. That's a LOT of premature backlash.

Really? The more this gets hyped as the end of indie publishing (by the other indie publishers, (meaning retail outfits like smashwords) especially) the bigger I'm starting to think the boat is. And the more indie writers (as opposed to publishers) turn on each other to try to act like you're a jerk, a con-man, or a Judas if you get in on it, the bigger I'm starting to think the boat is.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Well I am OUT because of all the reasons already stated by other people. However, I plan to enrol my standalone WiP for 90 days, after offering it for free to my mailing list, to see what exactly the impact will be for my specific genre. Nothing better than your own crash test dummy.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I have one title in and will see how that goes.
So far, it's sinking quickly in the ranks. Thank you, Amazon.

It goes very much against my grain that authors are forced into exclusivity if they wish to compete with other authors on the same platform. So if KU succeeds, those who aren't on board with those inevitable tiny payouts are going to suffer.
Also not fair if the payout for a full-length novel is the same as for the "drivel" so many here are planning to put into KU. 
Frankly, I hope it fails or becomes little more than a repository of "drivel".


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## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

I have most of my books in Select. I'm going to leave them for now and see how things play out, for the simple reason that it may increase my income. If it doesn't, the choice is relatively simple. But the books generally do well enough to earn me a living wage, so it's not at all about underperforming work for me, so much as a curiosity. Select has been good to me thus far and I'm donning the rose-coloured glasses willingly in all this until something instructs me to rip them off.

I understand why this whole thing is aggravating to some. To me it's just another step in the evolving machine that I jumped on a year ago and I continue to try and figure out what's best in all of it. But we're all in this together, and good on us for continuing to express our opinions and offer our thoughts, results and data.


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

I want to be clear.  I don't think it's the end of indie publishing.  I just think for me this is a bad deal.  I still wish Jeff Bezos well.  I still shop at Zon and love the check I get every month and the algorithms.  But it's just not a good deal for me.  It might for someone else and that's great.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Alondo said:


> Understanding you not am I.


I was once in Select. I will never again return to that fetid pit of exclusivity and not knowing what my profits are going to be.

More clear?


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

LisaGloria said:


> I want to say this nicely, so if it comes out any other way, please read it in Snow White's voice:
> 
> In the last 20 years in the dot com world... since the time when you had to pay for a browser... since before there was a Google OR an Amazon... I've seen a lot of Internet ships come in, and then leave the port. I almost caught the boat a few times, but ended up missing it. Hopefully I've learned a few things.
> 
> ...


Hard to argue with this. The biggest anger I've sensed has come from those who have already bid Select farewell. They're seriously proselytizing for everyone to get out or stay out. This has the potential (very hopefully not) to put a serious dent in their bottom line and it makes them mad...period. I'd be mad too, I suppose. Fortunately, nobody is locked into a course of action. You can choose your own path. If it turns out to be great, jump in. If it turns out to be bad, jump out. I haven't read one post (from someone intending to stay in Select) trying to convince others to do the same. Most of "us" have just shared our plan for now. Not the same from the "other side." Lots of fear and anger. I think everyone needs to simmer and let this play out.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Hard to argue with this. The biggest anger I've sensed has come from those who have already bid Select farewell. They're seriously proselytizing for everyone to get out or stay out. This has the potential (very hopefully not) to put a serious dent in their bottom line and it makes them mad...period. I'd be mad too, I suppose. Fortunately, nobody is locked into a course of action. You can choose your own path. If it turns out to be great, jump in. If it turns out to be bad, jump out. I haven't read one post (from someone intending to stay in Select) trying to convince others to do the same. Most of "us" have just shared our plan for now. Not the same from the "other side." Lots of fear and anger. I think everyone needs to simmer and let this play out.


Thanks for the words of wisdom. I shall now go mow (trying to dodge my neighbor's dog, Demon -- no, I'm not joking -- as he tries to attack me through our shared fence). Then, I'm going to do something productive with my evening and write. All this vitriol is starting to ruin my weekend high.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Lots of fear and anger. I think everyone needs to simmer and let this play out.


Yes. Well said. I think I just need to go... write something. Oh I liked your post on the Scoop thread too.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I have a Countdown deal in progress or I think I would have taken advantage of Amazon's offer to allow me to get out of Select a little early. I won't be renewing, and it is not specifically because of KU. It is because I know I can sell on other sites besides Amazon. Besides, I hardly ever have anyone borrowing my book, and I don't think that is going to change with the introduction of KU.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

SB James said:


> I hardly ever have anyone borrowing my book, and I don't think that is going to change with the introduction of KU.


This. I'm overall happy with my sales at Amazon (at least until now) but never did get a lot of borrows. It was the main reason I pulled my other books out of Select at the start of the year.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Hard to argue with this. The biggest anger I've sensed has come from those who have already bid Select farewell. They're seriously proselytizing for everyone to get out or stay out. This has the potential (very hopefully not) to put a serious dent in their bottom line and it makes them mad...period. I'd be mad too, I suppose. Fortunately, nobody is locked into a course of action. You can choose your own path. If it turns out to be great, jump in. If it turns out to be bad, jump out. I haven't read one post (from someone intending to stay in Select) trying to convince others to do the same. Most of "us" have just shared our plan for now. Not the same from the "other side." Lots of fear and anger. I think everyone needs to simmer and let this play out.


I"m actually not angry. It was a blessing for me. I submitted to a publisher that takes previously published works. I wanted them to take a Select story, but was going to have to wait until the term ended. Today I opted out and the publisher is free to put the story on all sites. It was great news for me. As for those who ARE angry, some of it probably comes from being blind sided. They've made Amazon money, so they probably feel they deserved more warning and a better idea of the bottom line. It's relevant to whether or not they pay their bills. If this were not exactly what I needed, I'd probably be annoyed, too. It's not easy to simmer down when the mortgage is coming due, is all I'm saying. Think of it like going to work one day and being told your hours might be cut. That's scary.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Quiss said:


> This. I'm overall happy with my sales at Amazon (at least until now) but never did get a lot of borrows. It was the main reason I pulled my other books out of Select at the start of the year.


I am wondering what the criteria is for someone to make the decision to borrow the book as opposed to buying it. I've had far and away more sales than borrows. Even yesterday, when everyone got a chance to play with the shiny new toy, I had more sales in one day than I've ever had, _and no borrows!_


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Quiss said:


> I have one title in and will see how that goes.
> So far, it's sinking quickly in the ranks. Thank you, Amazon.
> 
> It goes very much against my grain that authors are forced into exclusivity if they wish to compete with other authors on the same platform. So if KU succeeds, those who aren't on board with those inevitable tiny payouts are going to suffer.
> ...


Any time authors flood something it becomes a repository of drivel, so I'm sure you won't have to wait long. Someone has to be in the bottom of the rank, so it won't be long before KU does nothing for visibility. Also, there's the 10% read rule. The majority of free downloads weren't getting read, so I think it will be the same with unlimited reads. I think all that will change is that writers who publish on ibooks will lose readers with kindle apps.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

When I start publishing in a few months, I'll put some titles in Select and some not. Three months is a very small commitment and I like to experiment. I see no downside to giving it a try.


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## murmcd (Oct 11, 2010)

I'm all in, at present Select is funded based on Prime membership, I would imagine only a small portion of those funds are allocated towards the KOLL program. A large part of Prime money will be towards carriage and videos. KU is different, they have $10 a month to fund this part of the program, in all reality how many books do most people read in a month, most will be one a week with a few reading maybe one every couple of days. If we rule out the sign up and don't use, there'll be plenty of them and use the average of 4 a month, that's $2.50 a book. We could play with numbers all day long but in reality there is far more money to play with for the program than Select would ever have had. Amazon are after market share and for that they need as many books as possible in Unlimited, which means making it an enticing prospect.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm out because of the exclusivity required.

The only way I'd put a book on exclusive is if I just had one or two books that I wanted to publish under a secret pseudonym (because Smashwords requires you to set up a separate account to keep names separate, and it wouldn't seem worth setting up a separate account with them or a new account with D2D just for a book or two.)

So, I never say never, if I wrote something I wanted to keep super-secret, then I might try out Select - but I wouldn't keep a book from wider distribution just to take part in this.

If it were open to non Select authors, I'd probably sign up with my sales as they are at present (a book or two a month on average across all outlets - about 50% Amazon).  However, if I were selling, then I'd wait to see whether it worked out for other authors with similar genre/sales.  For non 99 cent titles, there's the risk that you'd lose more sales revenue than you'd make from KU borrows.  I'd want to see how that panned out. 

But, it's not open to non Select authors.  And, as much as I respect Amazon as a business - I'm not about to give them sole control over MY business!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> Also, there's the 10% read rule. The majority of free downloads weren't getting read, so I think it will be the same with unlimited reads. I think all that will change is that writers who publish on ibooks will lose readers with kindle apps.


I doubt this will happen, simply because KU users are limited to 10 downloads at a time. A reader might have binged on hundreds of free downloaded books and never read them, but the most they can download at a time with KU is 10. Not much to binge on.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

ChristinePope said:


> I voted "out" because I don't have any books in Select at the moment. But that doesn't mean I won't have a mix in the future (my general strategy is to put new releases in Select and then move them out). However, I won't be moving any of my current titles back in.


That pretty much says it for me, too.
I'm not selling a lot in other venues, but sales are increasing and I don't want to go through the hassle of pulling out all my books (I did that before with one of them and it was a pain in the patootie).

However, I do have a new one coming out at the end of August. And since it is not part of a series and not in a genre I'm generally known for, I've *almost* decided to put it in select for 90 days to see what happens. If nothing happens (and I suspect nothing will because when I've tried other genres in the past, the books have sunk without a trace after a measly 5 or 6 sales) then I'll go ahead and pull it from Select/KU and send it off to other sales venues. This book in particular may do better in other venues because I've heard rumors of that for this genre (horror/suspense). I need to look at that again because I can't remember if it was B&N or KOBO or the iStore or what, but I do remember some others saying their titles in that genre do better at non-Amazon sites.

Personally, I like change because it almost always represents opportunity. You never know what will click for you.
And in the long run, sales strategies always have to be tinkered with anyway as the market changes. So I'm actually cautiously optimistic. I won't change the books currently on the market, but new ones... Well, you never know, right?


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Out. I've never been in Select because of the exclusivity requirement and Kindle Unlimited won't change that.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Dipping my toe in...put my omnibus in there, but that is it. In won't enroll any other books, but I might create an omnibus for Broken as well and enroll it. I don't promote the omnibus and pretty much forget about it, because I don't want it cannibalizing my other sales. But if I can get a whole bunch of borrows on it, it might be worth it. Or, maybe that's just dumb, because it might cannibalize sales more than ever now, and, since I only get the reduced rate for borrows, it might be stupid for me to do it that way. 

It's tough to say whether the borrows I will get with KU are people who never would have given my books a chance at all, or if they are going to be those who would have bought the entire series if I didn't make it available for unlimited borrows. But, I'm going to try it out and see how it goes...


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> Dipping my toe in...put my omnibus in there, but that is it. In won't enroll any other books, but I might create an omnibus for Broken as well and enroll it. I don't promote the omnibus and pretty much forget about it, because I don't want it cannibalizing my other sales. But if I can get a whole bunch of borrows on it, it might be worth it. Or, maybe that's just dumb, because it might cannibalize sales more than ever now, and, since I only get the reduced rate for borrows, it might be stupid for me to do it that way.
> 
> It's tough to say whether the borrows I will get with KU are people who never would have given my books a chance at all, or if they are going to be those who would have bought the entire series if I didn't make it available for unlimited borrows. But, I'm going to try it out and see how it goes...


Are the books in your omnibus available on other platforms? If so, you'll probably get a nasty letter from Amazon at some point.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

My novel, Irradiated, is nearing the end of its 90-day Select period. 

The sequel, Degenerated, is coming out on July 30. To line up with that, I'm running a week long 99c Kindle countdown deal on Irradiated, to help boost the series. I have a bunch of promo spots lined up, spread across the week.

After that, I was planning to pull Irradiated from Select and distribute both books more widely. To be honest, I didn't really see the point of Select, and was ready to try my hand on other platforms.

Now, I'm not so sure. KU is a game changer for Select, and makes it really hard to leave. If it takes off, then it could be a huge boon to indies in Select. How it affects my planned promos... I really don't know.

Long story short, I haven't decided whether I'm in or out. I think people with books already in Select are going to be much more likely to keep them in Select now. I also think that people with books not in Select are going to be mightily angry.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> In the last 20 years in the dot com world... since the time when you had to pay for a browser... since before there was a Google OR an Amazon... I've seen a lot of Internet ships come in, and then leave the port. I almost caught the boat a few times, but ended up missing it. Hopefully I've learned a few things.
> 
> This is a boat, and a big one. You can tell, because it's surrounded by people wearing end-of-the-world sandwich boards. Those people have very little but rhetorical fallacies to try to convince people to not make a 90-day commitment on some small part of their inventory. That's a LOT of premature backlash.
> 
> Really? The more this gets hyped as the end of indie publishing (by the other indie publishers, (meaning retail outfits like smashwords) especially) the bigger I'm starting to think the boat is. And the more indie writers (as opposed to publishers) turn on each other to try to act like you're a jerk, a con-man, or a Judas if you get in on it, the bigger I'm starting to think the boat is.


It's not THE BOAT. It's A boat. I had an associated story I was planning on writing after I finish my series. I will put it in Select for a few months and see how it does.

If you've got a good thing with Smashwords/B&N/Apple, etc., throwing that all away to jump on the bandwagon *could* pay off. Or you could just wind up like the people who HAD to buy real estate last decade, or HAD to buy stocks two decades before.

Actually, already seeing some people who've taken all their stuff down everywhere else and being very sorry.

I think those of you who are in already WILL do very well for a little while ... and then things will return to normal. I think that for me, personally, it wouldn't be wise to lose what traction I've built up over the past years on all the other sites.

I'm going to write the final installment of my series now! Ultimately, the way to win at this game, has always been just to write the next book.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I'm putting one book in, my new one, _One Last Time_. I think it's the best book I've written but I can't seem to get any traction with it. Only five Amazon reviews in the first month. Four sales at B&N, nothing from Apple or Kobo. I don't seem to have much to lose by going exclusive for three months.

Maybe in that time it'll garner enough reviews that I can do a promo, which is all that seems to work for me.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> It's not THE BOAT. It's A boat. I had an associated story I was planning on writing after I finish my series. I will put it in Select for a few months and see how it does.
> 
> If you've got a good thing with Smashwords/B&N/Apple, etc., throwing that all away to jump on the bandwagon *could* pay off. Or you could just wind up like the people who HAD to buy real estate last decade, or HAD to buy stocks two decades before.
> 
> ...


I didn't say it was THE boat. There's always another boat. This is the one that's here now.

Lots of the people here, as you rightfully point out, are going to pick a middle road even if it takes a little while to find it.

Good luck on the series! I totally agree - the next book. Eyes on the horizon.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Or maybe I'll serialize my


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

work as I write it because


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

noboyd's going to find that


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I mean "nobody's" sorry I didn't catch the typo first time through.

Nobody's going to find that annoying, are they?


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Especially if I get bored and decide not to


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Depends on how you write the serial. If you format it so that one book ends mid sentence and the next one starts up mid-sentence, you might get some haters. If you write each one with a real beginning and ending and make each one a worthwhile read, people will probably check them out. I expect serials and series might do okay with KU. I aim to find out, anyway.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Jan Strnad said:


> Especially if I get bored and decide not to


Where's that darn "like" button when you need it? 

Seriously, I was already planning to write an associated novella for the trilogy I'm finishing up in early August (book three releases on August 5th). I'll put the novella in Select, and with any luck it'll drive readers to the original trilogy.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

There was some discussion here a week or so ago about a group of readers who work together to seek out and report fake serials that are just books posted chapter by chapter. Just something to consider before you take a cleaver to a full novel with hopes of multiple bites of the tiny apple.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> There was some discussion here a week or so ago about a group of readers who work together to seek out and report fake serials that are just books posted chapter by chapter. Just something to consider before you take a cleaver to a full novel with hopes of multiple bites of the tiny apple.


And I think that is exactly the issue. There's a fundamental difference between an actual serial and chapters of a book packaged as a serial. How does Amazon distinguish between the two? Most likely: They don't. Which royally screws the conscientious author who writes actual books.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Jan Strnad said:


> Which royally screws the conscientious author who writes actual books.


As the paradigm shifts, I think a lot of people are just going to have to let that idea go. I know that's probably giving some writers a real sour-grape taste at the moment, but other digital media comes in a variety of sizes without a lot of hullabaloo.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

LisaGloria said:


> Yes. Well said. I think I just need to go... write something. Oh I liked your post on the Scoop thread too.


Thanks, Lisa. I've never seen this much anger here. I've sensed it before, but the pot just boiled over. There's a wide divide at this point. The "Select" side truly doesn't care what the "non-Select side" does. It doesn't matter to them, because...it's none of their business and it doesn't affect them. The "non-Select" side seems to care A LOT about what the others are planning to do. I can't say why, because I'm not in that camp and can't speculate. Won't speculate.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

Steven, 

They are angry because they have spent hours upon hours setting up non amazon distribution and they fear that someone the size of amazon getting involved with a subscription business has changed the economics of this ebooks, and they likely have.

They are afraid that amazon is going to end up monopolizing the entire space and they will be left behind and ultimately forced into exclusivity as the market around them vanishes.

My sales are in the crapper the last two days. It's not a coincidence, its because of KU.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

OUT.

Two main reasons:

1. Payment issue.

I've read a few times here that from January - June borrow payment was fluctuating around 2 dollars and they've increased the pool for half a month by 800k. I read the question - It was 2 dollars the last six months, why would it be any different now?

KU, that's why. 

A borrow for a prime member is 1 per month. If 1 borrow per month = 1.2 million for 2 dollar royalty, I don't get how a measly 800k is going to contend with the massive boom of reads that are about to happen between now and August 1st. I could be wrong, and I'm not a math whiz or anything, but just my personal overview is that it has to be under a dollar. Maybe even fifty cents a read. I don't know. It's just my feeling that the previous amount of monthly borrows in comparison to reads in KU will be drastically smaller. 

2. Visibility, or lack of

Some people have speculated this could replace permafree. If KU had it's own separate store with rankings and they weren't in paid, then that could be different. As far as I can tell though, if you put a book that isn't on any of the paid lists into KU, then your only additional visibility is in the KU search results. I hardly think my books lingering there on page 193 out of 409 are suddenly going to get enough reads that they'll wind up in the paid lists. 

Permafree on the other hand, has the free store. The free store is visibility. I can't give that up. 

The other way to do would be have a permafree and then put books 2 and 3 into KU. But because the reader found the book anyway not in KU, then that doesn't seem like there will be that great of a pull. If I wanted more sales anyway I could lower to .99 cents, but as is, that's not cost effective.

Now, if I had a series in the paid lists that wasn't selling any on the other retailers, then it might make sense to do KU. But ONLY if the royalty isn't too low. Which it could be. I'm not really sure what too low is yet though.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Steven Konkoly said:


> Thanks, Lisa. I've never seen this much anger here. I've sensed it before, but the pot just boiled over. There's a wide divide at this point. The "Select" side truly doesn't care what the "non-Select side" does. It doesn't matter to them, because...it's none of their business and it doesn't affect them. The "non-Select" side seems to care A LOT about what the others are planning to do. I can't say why, because I'm not in that camp and can't speculate. Won't speculate.


Well, I stopped following the scoop thread after 4 pages or so, but I've seen more anger in the average DWS thread than over KU. And if anything, the Select advocates are noisier.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

LisaGloria said:


> As the paradigm shifts, I think a lot of people are just going to have to let that idea go. I know that's probably giving some writers a real sour-grape taste at the moment, but other digital media comes in a variety of sizes without a lot of hullabaloo.


Yeah, you could be right about that.

I'm not proud. If publishing my rough drafts a chapter at a time is the only way to make a buck in this business, I'll do it. I just don't think it's a healthy evolution of the publishing business, and I don't think it's a business model Amazon ought to be encouraging.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Jan Strnad said:


> Yeah, you could be right about that.
> 
> I'm not proud. If publishing my rough drafts a chapter at a time is the only way to make a buck in this business, I'll do it. I just don't think it's a healthy evolution of the publishing business, and I don't think it's a business model Amazon ought to be encouraging.


This statement got me thinking KU could very much end up like a paid version of Wattpad or Fan fiction net. If you've never written or read fiction in that manner, it takes a lot of getting used to.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Jan Strnad said:


> And I think that is exactly the issue. There's a fundamental difference between an actual serial and chapters of a book packaged as a serial. How does Amazon distinguish between the two? Most likely: They don't. Which royally screws the conscientious author who writes actual books.


They respond well enough when angry readers report fake serials. Remember: these books are still in the general sales space too. The same people who have been angry and active about this are still going to find and report these books.

And people who try and game the system by posting pieces of books are going to become smoking skeletons and suspiciously people-shaped shadows burned into the wall.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> They respond well enough when angry readers report fake serials. Remember: these books are still in the general sales space too. The same people who have been angry and active about this are still going to find and report these books.
> 
> And people who try and game the system by posting pieces of books are going to become smoking skeletons and suspiciously people-shaped shadows burned into the wall.


Agree! Any talk I do about serializing fan fiction in Kindle Worlds is just joking around.


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## CherieMarks (Oct 10, 2011)

ShaneJeffery said:


> A borrow for a prime member is 1 per month. If 1 borrow per month = 1.2 million for 2 dollar royalty, I don't get how a measly 800k is going to contend with the massive boom of reads that are about to happen between now and August 1st. I could be wrong, and I'm not a math whiz or anything, but just my personal overview is that it has to be under a dollar. Maybe even fifty cents a read. I don't know. It's just my feeling that the previous amount of monthly borrows in comparison to reads in KU will be drastically smaller.


As of now, I'm also out. However, I'm never one to say never (tee-hee, just did), but I know for a fact that certain, best-selling indie authors were given the opportunity to participate without exclusivity (perhaps without all the details up front, but that's another story), and many of them (not all), now that they have the details, are asking to be removed. Mostly they want out because with their books priced $2.99 or above, they'd earn more with a sale than a borrow. So, for them, it would be a pay cut to participate.

Now, I am nowhere near a bestseller. So, I'd be interested to see what the effect on ranking will be with minimal to lots of borrows.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

I am Out.

Although I was one of the early adopters of Select, literally since the day it was made available, and I absolutely love Amazon, I found Select and its perks pretty much useless for my type of books (Long novels, 120,000+ word literary fantasy, traditional fantasy and SF, humorous historical Jane Austen parodies, and historical epic fantasy, many standalones). 

So I pulled all my titles out of Select after the first year, with over a year of trying and getting no traction, getting a tiny handful of borrows and mediocre results for free days. 

These days what works very well for me is perma-free funnel book one in conjunction with trilogies/series.

I have also started getting traction on Smashwords, and going direct on Barnes & Noble, and Kobo.  There is no way I am going to cut down my channels and deprive readers from around the world of access to my books.

Now, in the near future I am possibly going to write some short serials, specifically intended for KU.  But all my current huge books are priced $3.99 - $5.99, so I would be losing money on them in the KU borrows (assuming I even got any).

I simply cannot afford KU with my current books.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I was experimenting with a Select period with two of my books, have a promotion scheduled later this month and I've already paid for some ads. If not for that, I would be taking full advantage of Amazon allowing current Select authors to pull out now. Once my promotions are done, I'm going to pull out of Select at the first possible chance. 

I believe authors should be well-compensated for their work, so I won't be party to something like KU that undervalues us and forces us to subsidize the big dogs. Bezos can find another monkey to dance for the pennies he's offering to throw.


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## gonedark (May 30, 2013)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Anwen Stiles said:


> Amazon doesn't have to stop and/or encourage anything. They'll let the readers do that.


Nope.

They not only discourage it, but it is against the Terms of Service. Read it. It specifically says you can't publish unfinished pieces of books. And if enough people report you, they will not only pull your book, but deactivate your account.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> Steven,
> 
> They are angry because they have spent hours upon hours setting up non amazon distribution and they fear that someone the size of amazon getting involved with a subscription business has changed the economics of this ebooks, and they likely have.
> 
> ...


Well put. Monopolies are not good for the free market obviously. That's why they're usually illegal.


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

I am going to be in (some not all). I have 3 up now. My plan is to put books 2-7 of my Monday Series on Select. I will put Cry Me a River on next weekend if I can get it down from all the other sites (Apple takes a bit sometimes and I thank God I had the forethought not to put it up on Sony--they take forever). I will leave Dark Mountain out. It fits my marketing plan to have it available everywhere.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> I was experimenting with a Select period with two of my books, have a promotion scheduled later this month and I've already paid for some ads. If not for that, I would be taking full advantage of Amazon allowing current Select authors to pull out now. Once my promotions are done, I'm going to pull out of Select at the first possible chance.
> 
> I believe authors should be well-compensated for their work, so I won't be party to something like KU that undervalues us and forces us to subsidize the big dogs. Bezos can find another monkey to dance for the pennies he's offering to throw.


That's how I feel. I've been wanting out of select for awhile. I was thrilled when they allowed me to opt out early today. I'm done helping to create a monopoly that will only hurt me in the end.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Nope.
> 
> They not only discourage it, but it is against the Terms of Service. Read it. It specifically says you can't publish unfinished pieces of books. And if enough people report you, they will not only pull your book, but deactivate your account.


Define 'unfinished'? Some big name indie authors (Hugh Howey, Michael Bunker) have published novels in parts before, releasing them progressively.


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm all in for now because I have nothing to lose, yet. If I was already a successful author with several novels on other platforms then I wouldn't touch KU with a ten foot anaconda, but since I'm still a newbie learning the ropes I can still be excited about the new boat and blow my dandelion puffs into the wind.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Define 'unfinished'? Some big name indie authors (Hugh Howey, Michael Bunker) have published novels in parts before, releasing them progressively.


1) Big names don't have the same contract as we do. We have the TOS. They have whatever they managed to get, which is going to be better than what we get.

2) If you're talking about the books I think you're talking about those are actual serials. Each installment has a beginning, middle and end, but fit into a larger continuing narrative. The thing I see suggested here to take advantage (ie completely abuse) the KU pool is to take a novel that itself has a beginning, middle and end and just publish a chapter at a time--a chapter that does not tell a story on its own.


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

Well I can join the party. I can't vote though since I still have 3 left in Select but all other books including those under other pen names are out now. Also hooking up on other publishing platforms. Never realized how much work it is having to reformat book files until now. Busy as a Bee all day Saturday.


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> 1) Big names don't have the same contract as we do. We have the TOS. They have whatever they managed to get, which is going to be better than what we get.
> 
> 2) If you're talking about the books I think you're talking about those are actual serials. Each installment has a beginning, middle and end, but fit into a larger continuing narrative. The thing I see suggested here to take advantage (ie completely abuse) the KU pool is to take a novel that itself has a beginning, middle and end and just publish a chapter at a time--a chapter that does not tell a story on its own.


I'm talking about Sand and Pennsylvania. Both are novels, but were released in parts. They don't read the same as an ongoing serial. Michael, as far as I know, is a 'normal' indie like us.

I don't have a problem with their approach (in fact, I'm planning something similar myself). I just don't reckon Amazon has a problem with it, either.

But, yeah... People that try cynical stunts, such as releasing a chapter at a time, will probably not win much favour with readers.


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## pauldude000 (May 22, 2013)

I have a serious feeling that this is going to be a big problem for books not in Select. Think Netflix or Amazon Prime concerning movies. People watch movies that they would never consider renting otherwise simply because of unlimited streaming, and I have no reason to suspect otherwise concerning kindle books. There probably will be a huge Amazon reader shift to this new service. Books in this service will get the boost in ranking do to the downloads, while those not in select will have to compete with said books, meaning that it will be harder for a non-Select book to retain a high ranking in category. All a person has to do is read 10% and it is accredited officially as a sale. However, I doubt if there is any 'return' policy on said books in the service since you have unlimited downloading privileges.

This could be a game changer for the eBook market. I just am not sure it will be a good one for authors or publishers as the sales are paid through the global fund along with Amazon Prime borrows and they only kicked the fund up by $800,000 to compensate. 

The only saving grace is that this service is only for the kindle. B&N may not be immediately affected, though some outlets may find sales more-or-less drying up. Long term, unless the other outlets respond immediately with a service that can compete, Kindle Unlimited may cause a few bankruptcies in even large eBook outlets. If you don't think this is possible, think Netflix, Redbox, and Prime Video vs video rental outlets. There are a lot of empty buildings that used to have huge, well-known household names on them...

This concerns me with many of my books at Smashwords. I expect that they will be hit hard, and they have no existing infrastructure to use in order to set up a similar competitive concept. It would take them time to compete, and they may not have much of that.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> 1) Big names don't have the same contract as we do. We have the TOS. They have whatever they managed to get, which is going to be better than what we get.
> 
> 2) If you're talking about the books I think you're talking about those are actual serials. Each installment has a beginning, middle and end, but fit into a larger continuing narrative. The thing I see suggested here to take advantage (ie completely abuse) the KU pool is to take a novel that itself has a beginning, middle and end and just publish a chapter at a time--a chapter that does not tell a story on its own.


It's fair to clarify that the big names are also not coming from the same pool indie authors are.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

1 non performer will go in, 12 will stay out.


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## Ceinwen (Feb 25, 2014)

My books sells next to nothing on non Amazon platforms, so I'm starting to consider it just to see if anything happens. Probably a stupid question, but can you still go into Select if you have a paperback available via Createspace? I assume yes, but thought I'd check as I can't find anything about it in the FAQ's.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Ceinwen L. said:


> My books sells next to nothing on non Amazon platforms, so I'm starting to consider it just to see if anything happens. Probably a stupid question, but can you still go into Select if you have a paperback available via Createspace? I assume yes, but thought I'd check as I can't find anything about it in the FAQ's.


Yes


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## Ceinwen (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks Mark! I'm guessing 'yes' was also the answer to 'stupid question.'


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

yodaoneforme said:


> It's fair to clarify that the big names are also not coming from the same pool indie authors are.


The exchange in question was about TOS scam books, though I guess with them being paid fairly instead of out of the pot, they don't have an incentive to try and pull crap like that.


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## S.G. Dean (Jan 25, 2014)

Out. I never liked the terms of Select and I like KU even less. It's dangerous putting all your eggs in one basket, especially when their value is left to chance. It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


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## books_mb (Oct 29, 2013)

With the boost I'm getting, in. Lots of it might be hot air if the share per borrow turns out to be low (which I expect at this point - they haven't even doubled the pool while the number of borrows must have grown by at least a factor of five to ten), but the increased visibility resulting from the borrows has also increased regular sales by 40 % and this is solid. Of course we are still in the initial phase and a decline might be around the corner, but I figure the borrows will always give SELECT authors an edge in terms of rank. I have no problems with exclusivity as well if SELECT is attractive. From a purely economic perspective the exclusivity is a rational move to gain the upper hand in the market. Monopoly? That's up to the courts to decide, not me.

It's not a fair system after KU, but it wasn't a fair system before. The mere existence of ranks and bestseller lists is a "the rich get richer" scheme. If you sold well yesterday, you'll sell well tomorrow. If you didn't sell well yesterday, your chances of joining the "sell well club" are slim. Some here (myself included) have profited greatly from this inherently unfair system. Then there are the uneven opportunities for marketing. Some can afford hoity toity cover designers, editors and Bookbub promos while others can't. And what about non-fiction authors? Almost all Kindle sites are geared towards fiction and women (check Alexa), leaving the non-fiction authors very little space to advertise. And and and ... The problem with unfair is that you only notice it once you're at the receiving end. KU has put new people at the receiving end, but has it made the system as a whole more unfair? I doubt it. That doesn't mean though that Amazon should just overlook the problems with pool payment. They definitely have to find a way to reward full length novels by indie authors. You just can't give a 20 page pamphlet the same share as a 300 page novel, this is madness.


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## Usedtopostheretoo! (Feb 27, 2011)

Bluehorseshoe said:


> Steven,
> 
> They are angry because they have spent hours upon hours setting up non amazon distribution and they fear that someone the size of amazon getting involved with a subscription business has changed the economics of this ebooks, and they likely have.
> 
> ...


I understand why people are angry at Amazon, just keep that anger directed at Amazon-not the authors who have books in Select. I've seen a focus of speculation about "why you won't get paid a fair royalty" from authors with NO books in Select. What do you care what I get paid? I can take care of that aspect of my career. When a "Select" author says "I'm not worried about this right now. I'll wait and see," everyone goes bananas.

What's done is done. We all have to deal with the fall out. Some sooner than others, but in the long run, who knows what will come of this. One thing is relatively certain, it ain't going away. Everyone will have to deal with this eventually.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Philip Gibson said:


> Thanks a lot. Odd that #Berlin45 isn't in since that's the only one that's had borrows (2) today after weeks with no borrows. I guess people in different parts are seeing different things until the system settles down.
> 
> I'm guessing it shows as in in the U.S.
> 
> Philip


Yes, I'm seeing it as "In" at Amazon.com

Betsy


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm in with my Assassin shorts and my lone standalone novel, the latter of which has been in Select for 1 period at this point.

KU seems like a great opportunity for shorter works, so I'm willing to go 'all in' with that series and see how it goes.

My series novels will stay out of Select and thus widely available and I absolutely will be considering writing some prequel style short stories or novellas to enroll in Select as a funnel into the series novels.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

scottmarlowe said:


> I'm in with my Assassin shorts and my lone standalone novel, the latter of which has been in Select for 1 period at this point.
> 
> KU seems like a great opportunity for shorter works, so I'm willing to go 'all in' with that series and see how it goes.
> 
> My series novels will stay out of Select and thus widely available and I absolutely will be considering writing some prequel style short stories or novellas to enroll in Select as a funnel into the series novels.


Yes. Funnels are your friend, and KU seems like the perfect home for one.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

My gut reaction was to stay out. I just don't like it. I mean, I'm not selling a whole lot, but I dislike the idea of feeding much into Amazon's drive to monopolize the ebook business. I'm somewhat surprised that the majority in the poll are choosing to opt in.

That said, and having read some of this thread, I can see it working as a temporary home for shorter works, I would consider it for short non-fiction in particular.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Philip Gibson said:


> Thanks a lot. Odd that #Berlin45 isn't in since that's the only one that's had borrows (2) today after weeks with no borrows. I guess people in different parts are seeing different things until the system settles down.
> 
> I'm guessing it shows as in in the U.S.
> 
> Philip


It's now showing 'in'


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

ameliasmith said:


> My gut reaction was to stay out. I just don't like it. I mean, I'm not selling a whole lot, but I dislike the idea of feeding much into Amazon's drive to monopolize the ebook business. I'm somewhat surprised that the majority in the poll are choosing to opt in.
> 
> That said, and having read some of this thread, I can see it working as a temporary home for shorter works, I would consider it for short non-fiction in particular.


At the risk of upsetting some I'll say that the "smart money" will hedge bets by staying in all channels with most of their books, while adding one or two novellas as funnels to KU.

I think its important to realise that none of us are being forced to go all in or all out. Why not test the waters with something and then use real data to decide on the future potential of this? I'm putting a single title in that has little or no sales behind it in other channels. I therefore lose nothing and may gain valuable info. I cannot imagine abandoning my other channels for this even if the data shows a good return. If that were to happen I might write new things eespecially for KU, but I wouldn't go exclusive with my current series. I sell too many outside of Amazon ever to go exclusive with them.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

> I understand why people are angry at Amazon, just keep that anger directed at Amazon--not the authors who have books in Select.


Yes, please.



> Why not test the waters with something and then use real data to decide on the future potential of this? I'm putting a single title in that has little or no sales behind it in other channels. I therefore lose nothing and may gain valuable info.


That's pretty much how I see it.

If KU becomes a short-works, faux-serial, high-churn flea market, it isn't going to help us slower-writing indies with standalones all that much. Amazon can seed the content with a roster of A-listed works that they host as loss leaders, but that's more like a Book of the Month Club than anything else and we indie standaloners will still be on the outside looking in.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Quiss said:


> It goes very much against my grain that authors are forced into exclusivity if they wish to compete with other authors on the same platform. So if KU succeeds, those who aren't on board with those inevitable tiny payouts are going to suffer.
> Also not fair if the payout for a full-length novel is the same as for the "drivel" so many here are planning to put into KU.
> Frankly, I hope it fails or becomes little more than a repository of "drivel".


I've been reading the threads, and one of the big impressions I've gotten is that a relatively significant number of authors are planning on putting drivel into KU. If KU becomes known for the amount of drivel that it offers, it has the potential to get a bad rep among readers. People aren't going to pay for the privilege of sifting through junk.


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## S.A. Mulraney (May 20, 2011)

My cutoff date to renew Select membership is the 25th. I had every intention of pulling my suspense/thrillers out (again), but this kept me in. I might let them stay put for another 90 days just to see if it generates additional sales. Otherwise, I'll have to rethink my strategy.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

S.G. Dean said:


> It's dangerous putting all your eggs in one basket, especially when their value is left to chance. It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


This


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Marian said:


> I've been reading the threads, and one of the big impressions I've gotten is that a relatively significant number of authors are planning on putting drivel into KU. If KU becomes known for the amount of drivel that it offers, it has the potential to get a bad rep among readers. People aren't going to pay for the privilege of sifting through junk.


I have not gotten that impression. Some anti-KU people keep saying it, but none of the pro-KU people have been crowing about doing it.

There's no reason not to put drivel into Amazon in general, other than it doesn't sell as well over time. Nobody's stopping you. Some of the indies are just awful.


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## PJ Owen (Feb 28, 2014)

I have one non-fiction title that I had pulled completely awhile back. I think that I will toss that in to see what it's all about. Not sure how good of a gauge it will be, since it is a $7.99 title and could not be any further from my fiction in terms of subject matter...but at least I can get an idea for what the royalties look like and see if readers are getting on board. 

I have noticed a pretty sharp decline in my non-KDP fiction titles over the last couple days...has anyone else seen this, or just an anomaly?

Cheers,

PJO


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> I have not gotten that impression. Some anti-KU people keep saying it, but none of the pro-KU people have been crowing about doing it.
> 
> There's no reason not to put drivel into Amazon in general, other than it doesn't sell as well over time. Nobody's stopping you. Some of the indies are just awful.


Check out the other thread--Kindle Unlimited. Some authors are planning on putting in books that aren't selling and books that aren't ready for prime time.

Kindle Unlimited: the scoop threads merged...


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Marian said:


> Check out the other thread--Kindle Unlimited. Some authors are planing on putting in books that aren't selling and books that aren't ready for prime time.
> 
> Kindle Unlimited: the scoop threads merged...


A low- performer isn't necessarily "drivel." Maybe it just hasn't gotten its legs. The people saying they're putting in drafts etc are those who are anti-select. They're just stirring the pot, imo.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

books_mb said:


> They definitely have to find a way to reward full length novels by indie authors. You just can't give a 20 page pamphlet the same share as a 300 page novel, this is madness.


It's madness for Amazon, too. It is very much in their interests to encourage readers to settle down with the 300 page novel (1 royalty payment) rather than 15 of those 20 page pamphlets (15 royalty payments). Long reads keep the overall level of royalty payments high, and therefore keep self-publishers from jumping ship.

If KU gets flooded with short works (whether drivel or carefully crafted pieces), I'd expect Amazon to make some changes. A higher royalty for longer works would be nice (speaking as a writer of epic fantasy...).


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

PaulineMRoss said:


> It's madness for Amazon, too. It is very much in their interests to encourage readers to settle down with the 300 page novel (1 royalty payment) rather than 15 of those 20 page pamphlets (15 royalty payments). Long reads keep the overall level of royalty payments high, and therefore keep self-publishers from jumping ship.
> 
> If KU gets flooded with short works (whether drivel or carefully crafted pieces), I'd expect Amazon to make some changes. A higher royalty for longer works would be nice (speaking as a writer of epic fantasy...).


They will be watching. I wouldn't be surprised if they impose a minimum word count for Select titles. 50k let's say, or 60


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

My sales have been absolutely crushed. I am absolutely crushed. I hate amazon for this. And simply joining select isnt the answer, unfortunately. They have pulled the rug from under my feet.

That's the thing with the internet. One minute it is your friend and overnight you are out of business or that business is no longer viable or with investing time in which i fear is where this is headed.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

After two days of hunkering down and reading everything about this I could get my hands on, and then processing it all and realizing no one was going to definitively tell me what the f&%* I should do, I've finally made a decision. Ish. And here it is:

I'ma take one pen name and put it on Select/KU (which is, incidentally, taking far longer than it should because although I've delisted the books through D2d, BN is slowwwww to respond and hasn't taken them down yet and I'm feeling too guilty to contact my D2D rep and have them nudge because he's prolly prettttty busy dealing with his own personal meltdown, but I digress). I'm going to leave it for 90 days and wait and see. I considered just sitting back for a few months and watching how it all panned out, but my gut is telling me that, if there ever was a time to try it, it's now. Here's why:

Amazon is funding this for 30 days because the ONLY way this idea floats is if they get content. If a reader looks for an author they like, or quality, well-reviewed books in their preferred genre, and is consistently disappointed because they can't find that author or those books, they won't stay with KU beyond the 30 day free trial. Amazon is essentially betting on themselves that, within 30 days, they can get enough authors to come on board to make it work for readers, and they are betting a LOT. Not just the 2 mil they're funding this month with, but also with the MILLIONS that they're paying to subsidize the trad. and (according to rumors, which I haven't substantiated) top tier indie breakout stars who HAVEN'T signed up but are still getting full royalty on every borrow. Every time Hugh Howey gets a borrow, Amazon takes a hit right now, if various sources are to be believed. Multiply that exponentially because, let's face it, Hugh gets a lot more than one borrow a day, and there are at least a few dozen Hughs (not to mention a Rowling, a Tolkien, etc. etc. etc. in the mix) and I'm guessing this gamble is costing them upwards of 20 million dollars. Even if this only applies to trad. pubbed authors they've added to KU, it's still going to be a HUGE investment. The last thing they're going to want to do is get cheap on roy distribution day and pay the other KU "pool" authors .60 a book or something in order to save another 2 mil $ that they could contribute to the pot from their coffers in order to get morale up and people excited about signing on. Using a poker analogy for those who play, it just doesn't make any sense to put 27 mil chips in the pot on the flop and the turn and then fold for a 2 mil bet on the river. In fact, if ever there was a time for a major good faith move on their part, it's now. When everyone is still trying to decide whether they're in or out. If Amazon doesn't make it at least a semi-sweet deal for this first wave of authors signing on, they're going to lose them AND any of the other authors who were sitting back and waiting for recon from the front line. They can't afford to do that because, again, the entire program depends on a butt ton of varying, quality content. Without it, KU is dead in the water. ALso, it's no accident that they launched mid-month. With a 30 day free trial, it allows for readers to sign up and authors who are on the fence to get back data from the front line in time to get in before most readers' 30 day trial is up. So the powers at Zon are confident that the information KU authors are going to be getting from their peers who signed out right out the gate is going to be an incentive. 

Because of that line of thinking, I'm going to be on the front line, but I'm not all in. I'm keeping my other pen name in a wait and see holding pattern just in case it all sh%*s the bed. Because I'm cautious like that 

I'm not trying to sway anyone else, I'm just throwing my strategy out there into the mix. This isn't without risk. It's costing me a minimum of about $2000 (which would be the average sales for all titles under that pen name at all other vendors over the course of the 90 day exclusivity commitment) so it's definitely something I've had to really think about, but I feel like it's a calculated risk and one I feel I can afford to take in this case. 

Good luck to everyone, whatever you choose to do. Going to be an interesting few months!

*ETA that I'm not SURE of how Amazon is paying top tier indies (i.e., whether it's a full roy or a piece of the "pool" as yet undetermined) so I wanted to tweak to indicate that I wasn't speaking from an insider's perspective, just what I've read.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'd quote all of the above, but since everybody just read it, I'll just say, sounds like solid reasoning to me, Christine. (If That Is Your Real Name, which I can never type or say without a sneer. Darn that mass media.) Best of luck with your experiment. 

I'm sticking with Select--gonna keep dancing with the one what brung me, until I see a reason to do otherwise. And if I do, I'll switch.


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## PaulLev (Nov 2, 2012)

books_mb said:


> You just can't give a 20 page pamphlet the same share as a 300 page novel, this is madness.


For what it's worth, there was a big debate along these lines regarding payments for stories in anthologies, about 15-20 years ago - pro rata (authors received payment based on the length of their stories, relative to the length of other stories, or what proportion of the total number of pages in the antho the story comprised) vs. per capita (each story in the antho received equal share of royalties, regardless of the length). In general, the per capita approach was favored by publishers as easier to administrate. Author views were spit. The per capita approach became the norm.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

For what it's worth, I reckon _Heart of Darkness_ (less than 40,000 words) is better than _50 Shades of Grey_ (more than 100,000 words).


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## ChelseaChaynes (May 18, 2014)

im out of business. sales are 90% less than a normal sunday at this time. 

I guess i should have stayed in select.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

ChelseaChaynes said:


> im out of business. sales are 90% less than a normal sunday at this time.
> 
> I guess i should have stayed in select.


My overall ranking has dropped faster than a roller coaster. THE BIG QUESTION IS: Are non-Select authors being punished in the algorithms and/or sales?


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Marian said:


> My overall ranking has dropped faster than a roller coaster. THE BIG QUESTION IS: Are non-Select authors being punished in the algorithms and/or sales?


Actually, my sales are up this weekend. I have nothing in Select at the moment. To be fair, weekends are usually some of my best sales days, and it's still kind of lackluster compared to how I was doing a few months ago (darn you, craptastic July!), but I'm not seeing the cratering that some people are reporting.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

I'll be keeping my trilogy out once I finish it.

May throw in a few shorter novellas (10-15k words) in though. Maybe.

But I voted Out.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I kinda feel like I don't have a choice; I'd have to go out and take my book off of all the other sites to get into KDP, that could take weeks. And I'd have to get a lot of borrows to compensate for the 10/day I'm selling at the other sites ... I had 2 borrows a month max through Select. I'd lose all my reviews on Apple/B&N/Google and Smashwords, and I'm not sure it's a good idea at this time.

I have told my readers on my blog that my entire series is available on Scribd for free. Oyster doesn't even have my covers up--but I've contacted support about it--Oyster's and Smashwords.

Scribd makes very pretty book covers, BTW


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## Winterfate (Feb 11, 2014)

> Oh! So books that aren't selling are drivel. I see. Boy that's bad news for a lot of authors on this forum.


*hides in a corner and weeps silently*

(Well, I'm getting a _few_ sales. I'll take 'em, I guess, haha.)


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I'm taking a couple books that don't sell well on the other channels and putting them in KU (as soon as Nook and Google take them down). They're short novels, about 45-50k so they may do better there. It's worth a shot since they're not making much money anyway.

In September, I may or may not put the first book of my new series in. I think by then, we'll have a much better idea how KU will play out.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Drew Smith said:


> Oh! So books that aren't selling are drivel. I see. Boy that's bad news for a lot of authors on this forum.


I think some people are being overly cautious and wanting to "test" waters with works that they feel pose the least cost if KU doesn't pay well. That caution is being encouraged by the incredibly negative attitudes around here.

I'm putting my best stuff out and making more, under my regular pen name. The best test is the full-throttle one, IMO.


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## Winterfate (Feb 11, 2014)

Drew Smith said:


> **Hugs**
> 
> For what it's worth I don't think that books that aren't selling yet are drivel. And frankly I would imagine that authors whose best ranking book is around 100k don't think so either... until that book goes into KU.


*hugs back*

I'm not particularly worried about my book for now. I have a promotion on this very site lined up for a few days from today. I've learned in these past few weeks to temper my expectations. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and all that. 

Just saw what you wrote and couldn't help myself. 
My Select expires on September 6th. Just thinking of leaving it there until that date and then figuring out what to do next. I'm ambivalent towards this whole KU thing, to be honest. I can see both why some people are hyped and others are cautious/pessimistic/leery of KU.


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## btsc99 (Oct 12, 2012)

Drew Smith said:


> Maybe your book just sucks.


No! Don't hold back, just come straight out with it, say what you mean.

PMSL.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Marian said:


> My overall ranking has dropped faster than a roller coaster. THE BIG QUESTION IS: Are non-Select authors being punished in the algorithms and/or sales?


I'm hoping that Amazon will end up separating KU books out from the rest of the inventory, much like they keep Free on it's own list and the adult dungeon elsewhere, too.

Amazon, so far, has put much value in rankings and reviews to keep things organized. By allowing borrowed items, especially before they hit the 10% to affect rankings, on the same list as "regular" sales pretty much destroys that system as it was.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

That's some mighty fine obfuscation you guys have going to cover up how people have been saying they plan to put pieces of books and unfinished works into the system.

Go Team?


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Quiss said:


> I'm hoping that Amazon will end up separating KU books out from the rest of the inventory, much like they keep Free on it's own list and the adult dungeon elsewhere, too.
> 
> Amazon, so far, has put much value in rankings and reviews to keep things organized. By allowing borrowed items, especially before they hit the 10% to affect rankings, on the same list as "regular" sales pretty much destroys that system as it was.


I agree, and it's unfair -- borrowed books shouldn't affect paid sales. Because at this rate the top rated books on Amazon will be the ones enrolled in Select.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Drew Smith said:


> Here's what I think. I think there is a big old group of authors around here who hate the very idea of KU. And I think some of them are blaming KU/Select for the fact that they aren't selling well.


There is a big old group of authors that have been around a while and hate the idea of KU because sales have DROPPED as people fill up their Kindles with other stuff. 
Big difference there, methinks, and hardly something that needs to be disparaged.
In some cases, people's livelihoods are at stake. In other cases, the thought of being forced into an exclusive deal in order to continue one's career is pretty bitter.

Quite frankly, I very much encourage everyone to upload every scrap of prose they can find in their bottom drawer. Finished or not.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaGloria said:


> If I were trying to drive people to my new product (KU), I would make sure points of entry for that product (books available through KU) were as visible as possible.


For now. Initially, the freebies were mixed in with the paid books, too. Those who have been here a little longer will remember.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Quiss said:


> For now. Initially, the freebies were mixed in with the paid books, too. Those who have been here a little longer will remember.


Borrows have always counted the same as sales. That's the tradeoff people have made for not having their books up elsewhere: more visibility (if less money) through borrows.

Has to be something you get in return for offering exclusivity, or what would be the point? They know that.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

PaulineMRoss said:


> It's madness for Amazon, too. It is very much in their interests to encourage readers to settle down with the 300 page novel (1 royalty payment) rather than 15 of those 20 page pamphlets (15 royalty payments). Long reads keep the overall level of royalty payments high, and therefore keep self-publishers from jumping ship.
> 
> If KU gets flooded with short works (whether drivel or carefully crafted pieces), I'd expect Amazon to make some changes. A higher royalty for longer works would be nice (speaking as a writer of epic fantasy...).


Short fiction isn't "drivel" nor is it "pamphlets". Nor is it only short fiction writers who enter their books into KU. I write mainly short fiction and none of my books are in Select or KU.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, this thread is losing its identity as a poll as to whether people are in or out of KU and becoming another discussion/debate/argument about the merits of KU--which means I'll end up merging it into the "Scoop" thread.

Also, let's stop sweeping negative generalizations about the side that doesn't agree with you (generic you).  Those kinds of statements will result in the thread being locked.

Back on topic.  In or Out?  Else post in the Scoop thread.

Betsy


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

On Topic: I'm in and Out. I'm making a Select Only series.


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

D. Zollicoffer said:


> On Topic: I'm in and Out. I'm making a Select Only series.


Me, too. I recently went permafree with my first in series, and it has been absolutely the right choice for me. I've got sales! And people on my mailing list! And reviews! Woohoo!

However, I've also had in the back of my head an idea for a YA serial that I wasn't previously sure was a good idea. I would hate to get part of the way through the first "season" and find that it was killed by reviews saying, "It was too short, and it has a cliffhanger!". Now it doesn't seem like so much of a risk.

Sigh. Now all I need is that elusive thing known as "time".


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## CherieMarks (Oct 10, 2011)

Chrisbwritin said:


> *ETA that I'm not SURE of how Amazon is paying top tier indies (i.e., whether it's a full roy or a piece of the "pool" as yet undetermined) so I wanted to tweak to indicate that I wasn't speaking from an insider's perspective, just what I've read.


Just to clarify, this is from one of the top-tier indies I'm on another loop with:

I wanted to quickly speak up and dispell some rumors that are going around:

I was one of the indie authors who was asked into the KU program without having to go exclusive, and left the program before the launch when I found out what it was all about. I have spoken to several indies who were offered the same as I, and none of the ones I've communicated with (myself included) were offered "regular" royalties (ie. their normal 70%) on their KU-included books - we all were offered the regular share of the Global fund like the rest of the indies in the program.


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## David Wisehart (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm all in.

Trying a new strategy with my work-in-progress, _The Vatican Dagger_.

I'm serializing it.

I published Episode 1 today. It's 14K words, priced at 99 cents. Free with Kindle Unlimited.










In the past I've resisted serializing because of negative reviews for shorter works and cliffhanger endings.

Hopefully, the free option will mitigate that.

In any case, change is good for those who adapt.

I was one of the first to join Select, and it was a huge boon in the early months.

I was one of the first to try the Kindle Countdown, and that was a big success the first time out.

Being an early adopter has worked for me before.

Maybe it will again.

I'm all in.

David


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

David Wisehart said:


> I'm all in.
> 
> Trying a new strategy with my work-in-progress, _The Vatican Dagger_.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm planning on doing. Releasing my mystery serial, price it at $0.99, and rely on borrow to make money from it.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I've changed my mind. I'm totally out.

I don't intend to demean anyone who's adopting some strategy to make KU pay for them, but the idea that I'd work for a year or so on a complete novel and get paid the same as someone who just whipped out a short story or a chapter... sorry, I'm not buying into that business model.

I'm not an A-lister who can demand more favorable terms. All I can do is say, "Sorry, Amazon, but your offer doesn't appeal to me," and move on. To other sales channels, if necessary. To obscurity, if that's how it rolls.

I may have an elevated idea of the value of my work. I know that I'm no James Joyce or John D. MacDonald or Kurt Vonnegut Jr. or any other great writer. But I'm not going to equate my novels with somebody else's short story or chapter of a work in progress.

Nope. No KU for me.


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## Mark Fassett (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm out because of the exclusivity requirement. That requirement, incidentally, is probably going to keep me out as a customer, too. It means that too many of the books that I want to read aren't in KU, and, at least right now, there are more of the books I want to read on Scribd than there are on KU.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Quiss said:


> There is a big old group of authors that have been around a while and hate the idea of KU because sales have DROPPED as people fill up their Kindles with other stuff.
> Big difference there, methinks, and hardly something that needs to be disparaged.
> In some cases, people's livelihoods are at stake. In other cases, the thought of being forced into an exclusive deal in order to continue one's career is pretty bitter.
> 
> Quite frankly, I very much encourage everyone to upload every scrap of prose they can find in their bottom drawer. Finished or not.


Couldn't have said it better, Quiss. What SUCKS around here is the attitude of some who feel they need to insult other writers who don't agree with their strategy.


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## CherieMarks (Oct 10, 2011)

David Gaughran weighs in and gives a fairly objective overview of KU:
https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/kindle-unlimited-the-key-questions/

Like many on here have said, I like the idea of throwing a book or two in to see if it nets results. I don't see removing my current books from the other platforms, but I have two books in a new series with my editor now. Once I get them back, I'll have about a week to figure it out. I think the deciding factor for me is if and where KU books end up on the Kindle bestseller list.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Quiss said:


> I'm overall happy with my sales at Amazon (at least until now) but never did get a lot of borrows. It was the main reason I pulled my other books out of Select at the start of the year.


This.

Select is an interesting beast. At first I had great success with freebies, then that tapered off. Then there were quite a few borrows for my series, but that petered out with time, too. The gamble with KU would be: will it generate enough reads at the guessed-upon average of $2 per, to substantively mitigate the loss of sales from other outlets.

Many may find initial success with KU -- some even longer -- but I suspect that it's power, too, will ultimately fade. I don't have the stomach for stock market-style decisions -- always jumping in and out of one channel or another. Things are picking up for me in Google Play, and iTunes is featuring some of my stuff. I serialize with success on Wattpad, and my site's beginning to generate some sales.

I think I'm going to sit back and watch this one for a while.


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## EllisaBarr (Apr 22, 2014)

I thought I was In.

I took down my book at other sites and joined Select yesterday.  My sales have been slow lately and I wanted to see if I'd get a lot of borrows.  Instead I got just enough borrows in addition to my sales to give me what I've come to see as a regular day.  (I usually get around 30 sales/day, and today I have 15 sales and 14 borrows.)

I'm only giving up about 3-5 sales on other channels by being exclusive at this point, so financially it seems like KU is the smarter thing to do at this moment, but when I launch my next book in a month or two I don't think I will be happy making $2/copy (if that's what it is).  When I release my 3rd book, I want to have the option to have book 1 get permafree level exposure.  I don't think KU will get that.  If I'd had a ton of borrows today I'd be more tempted to stay in, but if this is what peak level users looks like for me, I'm not really sold. 

So last night my answer was IN, and tonight my answer is OUT, but I may change my mind again.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

CherieMarks said:


> Like many on here have said, I like the idea of throwing a book or two in to see if it nets results.


Even though I'm very anti-exclusivity, I rolled this idea around in my head, and momentarily considered putting my second book in to try it. I emailed KDP to see if a book that was previously sold to a library would render a book ineligible for KDP Select, and...it does. So I'm out.


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## DTW (Apr 13, 2014)

Drew has nailed it.  Hole in one.  Swish.  Shoots, scores.  Sang.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes, a wall of copypasta is certainly a surekill technique.

If we wanted to play that game, would you like me to quote the guy who said Amazon would 'reward us for bringing in new subscribers' or all the people saying they plan to dump books into KU a chapter at a time, maybe the personal attack you personally leveled at me?

I'm not professional like some folks, but I did get offers back when I was on the Wizards boards, so I think I can keep up.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Marian said:


> I've been reading the threads, and one of the big impressions I've gotten is that a relatively significant number of authors are planning on putting drivel into KU. If KU becomes known for the amount of drivel that it offers, it has the potential to get a bad rep among readers. People aren't going to pay for the privilege of sifting through junk.


I agree. I hope they don't put up drivel as it will smear all Indies. 

ETA If you write drivel no one will read past the first 10% and it won't register as a borrow, so it will be a pointless excercise


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Y'all know that I can hear read you, right? The snark alarm went off.... 

(Not you, Jan...)

Move on while I decide whether to remove posts...

Betsy


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't like the way this is turning Indies against each other. I know it's a hot topic, but at the end of the day it's a business decision each of us needs to make for ourselves. No need to get the knives out.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Does anyone know if the sales board registers a KU borrow when the book is borrowed, or when the 10% has been read?


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## E.R.Baine (Mar 17, 2013)

I have decided to put my current work in KU for now too and check out the results until my next book is released. Which should be in about 3 months anyway. I had a bad experience with the free days where a lot of trolls attacked my book, even saying it was not edited, when it was line edited and proofread. Then I discovered a link in the Amazon Community thread with people actually telling other people to mark down my book for some reason. Not only my book but others as well. It was really weird. My reviews have recovered, but I just don't want to put anymore of my books in a position where just anyone can download it for free and leave a review. First book going free is the only book that would ever be free. I am nervous about people being able to take out the book,  just read the 10% and being able to leave a review. 

But I want to take advantage of KU before other big name authors decide to put their titles in there and suck up all the air. So I will put it in tomorrow. If I get good results, I'll let you know.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

E.R.Baine said:


> I am nervous about people being able to take out the book, just read the 10% and being able to leave a review.


Anyone can leave a review. They don't have to read, borrow, or buy it first.


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## E.R.Baine (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi Mark, I know that. But it is the "Verified" ones I am concerned about.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Drew Smith said:


> I couldn't agree more!
> 
> Quiss: But I'm not interested in writing non-fiction. Or shorts. Or porn. Or poems. I write space opera because I enjoy it and so far it was good to me. It's not "slaving". To suggest gaming this new system with drivel, as it was worded in another thread, is beyond comprehension.
> 
> ...


It's a completely different thing to insult other writer's work, which is what you did. The quotes above are directed at the new program, not accusing other authors of writing books that suck. One would hope indies could disagree on what's good for them without having to say "If you don't agree with me and are afraid this is going to affect your sales then your work sucks" in so many words.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Y'all know that I can hear read you, right? The snark alarm went off....


Yeah, you're right. Lot of snark going on, which is what this form tries to avoid.
There is a difference between expressing anger over the possible damage this program can cause to individuals and the eBook business in general, and to disparage those who choose to go with it.
I think we all need to jump back a bit.

Point though: I think the word "drivel" was being used as a catchall word to describe what some writers are intending to enter into KU (posted throughout these threads on many occasions), that being something they'll be writing in a hurry, something that they've had sitting around for a while, shorts priced at ridiculous "regular" prices (my god, I saw a 45-pager without reviews listed at 2.99), things that don't sell otherwise, stuff like that. We can all assume that the scammers will also be on board by posting stolen or scraped stuff.
I think we all know that not all is actually "drivel", but chances are that a lot will be.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

katherinef said:


> All out, but I'm planning to write some drivel and toss it in just to see what happens.


I believe the first instance of "drivel" in this thread was in a sarcastic vein (above). At least that's the way I interpreted it. You know, with Katherine's wink and a grin. Most subsequent iterations, however, were uncalled for. After all, one person's drivel is another one's dribble. Of cash, that is.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> You weren't talking about MY 45-page serial at $2.99 were you?  it's priced that way to encourage borrows and discourage cash sales, fyi. I would like to test the new market with a strategy. I'll let you know what I find out. Maybe. Actually I might keep it to myself.
> 
> Edit: actually, yes. I'm going to step away from the board for a few weeks. Best of luck to all of you.


So you are _literally_ trying to make less money?

Even if Amazon decides to lose a ton of money on this and keeps the KOLL rate steady, The KOLL rate only matched the 2.05/2.10 (dependent on 'deliver charge') royalty for one month. By discouraging cash sales, you are in a very real sense nickle and diming yourself.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

When I first published, I distributed everywhere. However, as I've been retooling, to keep things simple, I've stayed on Amazon and put things in Select. I'll get out of Select after I've built up my catalogue and am ready to deal with all the other sites again. KU isn't going to change my longterm plans. That being said, I'm super curious how it's going to impact my upcoming new releases


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Drew Smith said:


> I've tried twice to move on, but have been addressed directly both times and good manners required that I respond.


Sorry, good manners do NOT require that you respond. Wanting to have the last word requires that one responds. I'm going to have the last word here. Any more discussion about people's work sucking in the context that it's been discussed in this thread will be removed for being off topic. Walk away. Don't you have to check your KU borrows or something?

Betsy

(EDIT: Anyone with any questions, feel free to PM me.)


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## legion (Mar 1, 2013)

Both in and out, here. 

Two pen names (with one title each, and on the literary side), are in.
Another (with more profitable stuff), is out for now; I plan on producing Amazon exclusive material for it, however (prequels etc.).

Yet another, is about to have one foot in, one foot out; I'm going to pull non-performing shorts/collections and enroll those.

I also plan on putting up a KU/Select series in the near future, since it seems to be the only way to get some action, outside of already being popular/successful, and being an Amazon imprint author. I already have a few series planned, and had intended to launch them in Select, anyway.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaGloria said:


> You weren't talking about MY 45-page serial at $2.99 were you?  it's priced that way to encourage borrows and discourage cash sales, fyi. I would like to test the new market with a strategy. I'll let you know what I find out. Maybe. Actually I might keep it to myself.


Hmm, not sure. I was just clicking around to see what was being put in select.

However, if that is your range, please consider that people sometimes don't pay attention to the page count. So if you do sell some of your titles you may end up with some angry reviews from people who feel duped. I've seen this happen to shorts in many categories.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> So you are _literally_ trying to make less money?
> 
> Even if Amazon decides to lose a ton of money on this and keeps the KOLL rate steady, The KOLL rate only matched the 2.05/2.10 (dependent on 'deliver charge') royalty for one month. By discouraging cash sales, you are in a very real sense nickle and diming yourself.


I can't speak for the poster, but I *think* what she was saying is maybe she had the book originally at .99 and then priced it at 2.99 (which would, in turn, discourage purchasers that might have bought at .99 for a .35 royalty, and encourage borrows, which one, would hope, is more than that). Again, I can't be sure, but that's how I took it.


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

Jan,
see if ALL my 6 eBooks are in, please, could you??Where do you look to see if they are? Warmly, Kathryn Meyer Griffith


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Kathryn, all six of your books are in KU. I can see the 'read for free' button on each book's page.


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