# Don't let an algorithm tell you what to read! (my local bookstore shouts)



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I was doing errands in my neighborhood and I saw a new sign in the local bookstore:










Maybe the Blockbuster news earlier this week prompted them to put up that sign.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Whoa, whoa whoa.

What's the point of having robots if I'm still going to have to think?

[Also, I keep hearing technophiles celebrating Blockbuster's death and I want to punch them. some thirty MILLION people in the US are on dial-up and most of those literally have no choice thanks to geography and legal monopolies by cable companies who refuse to actually bring the dark net online. So yeah, pop some champagne over ten percent of the country not being able to watch movies, jerks -_-]


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Whoa, whoa whoa.
> 
> What's the point of having robots if I'm still going to have to think?
> 
> [Also, I keep hearing technophiles celebrating Blockbuster's death and I want to punch them. some thirty MILLION people in the US are on dial-up and most of those literally have no choice thanks to geography and legal monopolies by cable companies who refuse to actually bring the dark net online. So yeah, pop some champagne over ten percent of the country not being able to watch movies, jerks -_-]


Although there is now an opportunity for the little Mom and Pop video stores (which Blockbuster put out of business) in those places.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> I was doing errands in my neighborhood and I saw a new sign in the local bookstore: ....


There are small bookstores I like. They aren't the ones who try to tell me what to read. They are the used bookstores chock full of choices. They often work with Amazon to keep their business going. They are interested in the books and the readers and the authors first.

I don't feel sorry for any bookstores which refused to carry Amazon published books. (Those now celebrating that they "killed" Amazon's publishing efforts.) Here's the thing, those stores weren't serving their customers. They took sides with the publishers who screw writers. I can't forgive that.

Camille


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I love brick and mortar bookstores and I lvoe Amazon. However, I have rarely bought books of Amazon's recommendations, though it has happened a few times.

As for brick and mortar booksellers, I like sales people to leave me alone unless I ask for help. It took me years to accept that if you're an adult, a sales person asking "May I help you?" is not code for "I think you might be a thief. And even if you're not, don't soil my store with your presence, cause you might scare off the real customers."

Booksellers are mostly pretty good about leaving me alone (apart from guys hitting on me at the cash register, though that gets less common now that I'm older) and letting me browse in peace. On the few times, they did try to recommend a book to me, it was whatever designated trad-pub bestseller had told them to push, even if it had obviously no connection to the fifty quid worth of books I had just bought at their store. I remember one time in a British _Waterstones_ store where the person behind the cash register asked me if I was interested in the _Biography of some guy_ which was on sale that week (I had bought lots of fiction, mostly SF and fantasy with a bit of romance). I looked at the book and said, "I don't even know who that is." I notice the sporty jersey on the cover. "Football player?" "Rugby actually", the bookseller says. "Totally not my sport then."

I did buy a book of a bookseller's recommendation once. I was browsing the foreign language section of my local Thalia store (chain bookstore similar to B&N in the US and Waterstones in the UK), when I overheard a lady from the corporate HQ instructing the staff to put up a big display of _50 Shades of Grey_ and related books, cause "that thing will sell at least till Christmas". After she was done, I aproached the lady and said that not everybody is interested in _50 Shades of Grey_ and knock-offs and while I understood that they did have to carry it and offer a display, I didn't really want to encounter _50 Shades of Grey_ and related books in multiple sections of the store. Especially since the people who made it into the foreign language section likely weren't the typical bestseller reader and would be able to find _50 Sahdes of Grey_, even if it were spine out on a shelf. She asked me what I liked to read, we got to talking and then she recommended a book to me. I bought it and it was good.

That was the first time I'd ever been handsold a book. And at that moment I also understood why that lady had risen to a high position in the corporate HQ. Because she was a damn good bookseller.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Whoa, whoa whoa.
> 
> What's the point of having robots if I'm still going to have to think?
> 
> [Also, I keep hearing technophiles celebrating Blockbuster's death and I want to punch them. some thirty MILLION people in the US are on dial-up and most of those literally have no choice thanks to geography and legal monopolies by cable companies who refuse to actually bring the dark net online. So yeah, pop some champagne over ten percent of the country not being able to watch movies, jerks -_-]


If the 90% had only known, Im sure they would have stayed with BlockBuster.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I've never had anyone hand sell me a book at a bookstore, so I don't know wtf they are talking about with that little sign. I suppose there is the rare buyer who comes in and says "I have no idea what to get my son to read -- what would a 13 year old boy like..." or some such thing, but I bet the quality of the answer you get in most stores by most clerks wouldn't be a thousandth of a percent as informed as hitting a category list on Amazon and, if you saw nothing that attracted your eye, the also boughts. Then the search engines for awards lists. Oh, they have awards lists on Amazon, too...


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

The closest I've ever had a bookseller actually talk up a book to me has been when I've been checking out at the register. Usually it's just small talk about books, what they like, what I like, etc.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Seems to me the local B&N's, and Borders when they were still around, had a specific shelf for picks by the store employees. It was kind of nice because it was usually pretty eclectic, and for each book so placed, there was a short "here's why I liked this" by one of the folks who actually worked in the store.

But, still, unless it was something in my usual genre, it wasn't like they told me what to read.

And, even now, where I get most of my suggestions is from signatures here -- especially the reading pages of various members who, I have realized, have similar taste to mine -- reviews/writeups in _BookMarks_ magazine or occasionally the Washington Post. Almost never from ads or from things simply suggested on Amazon.


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## Sean L (Oct 30, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Seems to me the local B&N's, and Borders when they were still around, had a specific shelf for picks by the store employees. It was kind of nice because it was usually pretty eclectic, and for each book so placed, there was a short "here's why I liked this" by one of the folks who actually worked in the store.


Ooo, yeah! That's right! A Borders store just north of Denver did that with the employee picks. I can still see those colorful little cards taped below each chosen book... Picked up a few titles from those suggestions. Rarely, if ever, did employee recommendations mirror the "hot sellers" at the time...


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

For recommendations, I don't need to hear about the hot sellers, I will hear about those anyway! Recommendations from someone with similar tastes who can point me to something I otherwise wouldn't hear about are what's valuable to me. I don't ever remember getting that in a regular bookstore. Years ago at a specialist mystery bookstore in Washington DC, I did get some good suggestions. I confess to having used the Amazon recommendations with good success. 

I won't miss Blockbuster, haven't used them in ages. I actually preferred Hollywood Video!


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## Russell Brooks (Dec 23, 2010)

I miss my local Blockbuster. I used to buy all the "Already Seen" movies at a discount. Plus, I miss the friendly staff.


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## WilliamGant (Sep 24, 2013)

I don't let algorithms choose my next book ... especially since they're so much weight placed on what I recently searched for, and since I buy more than ebooks on Amazon ... "things I might like" are generally all over the place.  If I'm looking for a good book, I'm more likely to hit the bestseller lists of the NYT, Amazon, and a few others - and then the blogs.  My nearest bookstore is 25 miles away, and I still don't like their prices (nor do I like enabling traditional publishing royalty practices).


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Besides the Barnes and Nobles and the half price book store chain, I have yet to actually see a indy bookstore. I am honestly not sure what those even look like in the US. Come to think of it, since living in the US, chain type book stores are the only ones I have ever seen. 
After googling there is apparently some famous one down town at the river walk. It might as well be on the moon considering how horrible it is to get there from where I am at. 
I have a feeling looking at their site that they don't really sell what I read anyway, so what would be the point. I have much better luck finding readers online to get suggestions from and even the algorithm is better than nothing. As long as its based on stuff I actually like a algorithm can be very useful. 

But then I know what I want to read, I know what I like and don't like so someone in a book store telling me about something that isn't even in a genre I read would not be very useful anyway. I also don't react well to snooty book stores telling me how horrible amazon is. 

For me other readers of what I like to read are still the best way to find good stuff. And for me those readers are online. So its where I go.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm sorry but I find the Amazon/Goodreads reviews to be the best advice and bookseller thing ever. I have bought or not bought more books based on those than any advice I might get from a random single person working at a bookstore who may or may not be an idiot.

Not just in books but I feel more informed about most of my purchases by checking online reviews. I don't miss the days when your only data for decisions was the blurb on the back and the advice of someone trying to sell you something/anything


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## quadtronix (Nov 7, 2013)

When I'm looking for a new book I either browse the isles at Barnes and Noble, the library or Amazon.com or BN.com. If I know the kind of book I want to read next, I do a search on those sites or I inquire at the register. Whenever I go to Barnes and Noble I check out the new releases section. Plus I usually pass by the Science Fiction area and see what's new there. 

I don't mind Amazon using algorithms to suggest books to me... Although I have yet to buy a book that way. At least that I can remember... 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Chad Winters said:


> Not just in books but I feel more informed about most of my purchases by checking online reviews. I don't miss the days when you're only data for decisions was the blurb on the back and the advice of someone trying to sell you something/amything


Yes, this so much. I have found and loved so many books because of browsing online that I would never have even heard of without the interwebs. I remember the days before www well, but I wouldn't want to go back to that, ever. . 
I read way more books I love now and I get to talk to other readers, share stuff about books. I don't have a lot of real life friends that read like me, or read what I read, so online it is for me.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Besides the Barnes and Nobles and the half price book store chain, I have yet to actually see a indy bookstore. I am honestly not sure what those even look like in the US. Come to think of it, since living in the US, chain type book stores are the only ones I have ever seen.
> After googling there is apparently some famous one down town at the river walk. It might as well be on the moon considering how horrible it is to get there from where I am at.
> I have a feeling looking at their site that they don't really sell what I read anyway, so what would be the point. I have much better luck finding readers online to get suggestions from and even the algorithm is better than nothing. As long as its based on stuff I actually like a algorithm can be very useful.
> 
> ...


The big chain bookstores closed down in San Francisco. There are a few Barnes and Nobles in the suburbs but it would be a drive. We have several indie bookstores. The one in my neighborhood is like a chain since they have several of them throughout the city. They're more local focused with a lot of books targeted to the neighborhood and they do have all the best sellers.

I don't find the staff that helpful or friendly which makes me chuckle at that sign. If you're going to boast about personal service the staff should be more personable. I like to peruse bookstores so I go in a few times a month. I buy books that I stumble upon there mostly for support, but I prefer my Kindle and this whole "us versus them" attitude of the indie bookstores annoys me. If a small indie bookstore outlasted a Barnes and Nobles and a Borders they should be fine against online retailers, but only time will tell.

They do have "staff picks" and Wool is one of them, they probably don't know Hugh Howey is a self published ebook king, they would probably burn his book versus giving it top shelf space.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Just wanted to add that, as someone who writes software for a living, I _like_ algorithms. That being said, not all algorithms are created equal, and I think Amazon's recommendations algorithm could be improved quite a bit. But if they ever come close to getting it right, it could potentially be a great way to discover authors you haven't read yet but match up well with those you like.


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## Adaman14 (Mar 20, 2013)

Amazon suggestions are pretty good in my opinion, but other sources such as Goodreads recommendations are very good. Algorithms that suggest based upon other readers purchases (e.g. http://www.literature-map.com) are also really great. I think I rarely had suggestions from the clerks in a bookstore to be honest. Mostly back in the day they were quite helpful in finding rare books but the internet has made that service obsolete. The suggestions from other customers in the bookstore or people on specific genre forums I guess count as not using an algorithm, but it still has little to do with a bookstore clerk.


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## LaraAmber (Feb 24, 2009)

The only questions a book store employee has ever successfully helped me answer:

1. Where is this located in your store/is it in stock?
2. Where is your bathroom?
3. Do you validate parking?

Now they could be helpful if you only have part of a title (assuming it's a familiar stock item) or you want the next book in a series.  But recommendations?  They aren't librarians, they are in most cases they are just there for a few years at most while doing something else like going to school.  I doubt they spend their weekends reading trade publications, journals, nomination lists for awards, etc.  Now if I happened across the manager or purchasing person, I'd probably have better luck there.


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't go into book stores since Borders closed. Both Amazon and Goodreads give me recommendations I've either read before or that I have no interest in. _No Amazon, I am not purchasing Games of Throne, even if I read fantasy that is not my style!_

My recommendations mostly come from KB here. User's recommendations are always plentiful and worth checking out. While other peoples reading bar gives plenty for me to look into. I also get some good recommendations from G+.


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## LaraAmber (Feb 24, 2009)

The one downside to Amazon that I have come across is not knowing "I already have that".  For a while it was recommending the paperback edition when I already had the hardback (which seems to be fixed) but it still does things like recommend omnibuses when I already own every book title in the collection.  If I already own volume 1-6 in a series, don't recommend the Kindle bundle of books 1-3!  If I own the hardback volume, don't recommend the paperback ones where it was split in half.  If I already own the full book, don't try to sell me the excerpt of chapters 1-4 that were released in advance of the full book release.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

LaraAmber said:


> The one downside to Amazon that I have come across is not knowing "I already have that". For a while it was recommending the paperback edition when I already had the hardback (which seems to be fixed) but it still does things like recommend omnibuses when I already own every book title in the collection. If I already own volume 1-6 in a series, don't recommend the Kindle bundle of books 1-3! If I own the hardback volume, don't recommend the paperback ones where it was split in half. If I already own the full book, don't try to sell me the excerpt of chapters 1-4 that were released in advance of the full book release.


Every so often I go into the "fix this recommendation" and click the "I already own it" on a bunch of books. (Also, "not interested," and "Do not use this for recommendations.") This seems to help. The more info you feed it, the better the recommendation engine is.

Camille


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

After thinking it over, I've gotten hundreds of good recommendations about what to listen to from my local indie music store, and zero from my local bookstore.  In fact, when I wander into my local indie bookshop, the people behind the counter are more likely to ask me for recommendations about what to read instead of the other way around.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Avis Black said:


> After thinking it over, I've gotten hundreds of good recommendations about what to listen to from my local indie music store, and zero from my local bookstore. In fact, when I wander into my local indie bookshop, the people behind the counter are more likely to ask me for recommendations about what to read instead of the other way around.


I visit that indie bookstore (the one I took the photograph in the OP) all the time, and I've even purchased a few local themed books, and not one of the humans working there has said boo to me. Needless to say, they've never asked if I was looking for something in particular while I'm perusing (even Barnes & Nobles staff would ask if they saw me wandering around).

It's nice that they don't bug you, but not even one time in two+ years I've been going in there? I find that odd and another reason I found that sign so amusing.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Interesting article on CNN about algorithms...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/tech/web/internet-serendipity/index.html?hpt=hp_c3


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

Very clever. I do still love independent bookstores with their employee recommendations.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

The sign is gone now. It lasted about 2-3 weeks. I wonder if it was a successful marketing move. Made me look.

A lot of tech people living in and around my neighborhood. Google, Facebook, Yahoo, EA, and others send these big tour-like buses to pick their employees up and drive them to work down in Silicon Valley (around 40-50 miles away) and Twitter headquarters is just a few blocks away. That sign might insult those programmers and techie peeps more than drive them into the bookstore.


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## Cappy (Sep 6, 2011)

Algorithms are evil.

Online bookstores need to develop an interface that is the equivalent of walking aimlessly around a bookstore, open to discovering the unknown, or we're going to breed a generation of readers who "know what they like and like what they know". Some of my most enjoyable reads have been books I just stumbled upon in bookstores. All algorithms seem to do is suggest books that are very similar to the one I've just read. Who needs that lack of variety?


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Cappy said:


> Algorithms are evil.
> 
> Online bookstores need to develop an interface that is the equivalent of walking aimlessly around a bookstore, open to discovering the unknown, or we're going to breed a generation of readers who "know what they like and like what they know". Some of my most enjoyable reads have been books I just stumbled upon in bookstores. All algorithms seem to do is suggest books that are very similar to the one I've just read. Who needs that lack of variety?


If you clear your computer's cookies and browser history you should be able wander around aimlessly online without them presenting "choices" based on your search, past purchases, etc. A lot of browsers have a "private browsing" setting as well so they're not tracking you and presenting books based on your history.

The online bookstores will still use algorithms like sales and reviews, etc to determine how the books are displayed, but even in an offline bookstore the books available to peruse are there because of book buyers, store manager, etc ordering and placing books on their shelves based on data and book sales reps just like an algorithm. It's my understanding that publishers pay bookstores to put their books in the top shelves, etc. so they are managing your discovery as well.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Cappy said:


> Algorithms are evil.
> 
> Online bookstores need to develop an interface that is the equivalent of walking aimlessly around a bookstore, open to discovering the unknown, or we're going to breed a generation of readers who "know what they like and like what they know". Some of my most enjoyable reads have been books I just stumbled upon in bookstores. All algorithms seem to do is suggest books that are very similar to the one I've just read. Who needs that lack of variety?


Your choices will get better if you actually go into your browsing history and actually tell it where it is wrong. Also start browsing wider than usual. The algorithm will work with what info it's got. Give it more info.

Also, use more of the tools they have available. For instance, when you look at a book, click on the author's name to go to the author page. Look to the right. There you'll find a bunch of authors who rank high among the people who bought the first author's work. Click on those names and see what the other author box yields.

If you want to browse, you have to actually _browse_. Otherwise it's like going into a brick and mortar bookstore and just standing by the front table and never looking in the stacks.

Also, the thing that people fail to realize is that now the internet is your browsing space. You aren't limited to browsing the bookseller shelves any more. Follow your interests, and you will find mentions of books. And often links. (And if you don't find links, then when you find something that interests you, a simple copy and paste will help you find it at Amazon.)

If you are someone who doesn't really like browsing, you just like someone to tell you what's best and you browse among that -- there still is the New York Times Book Review (and many many many other sites like it). Do Google searches on books you love and see if you can find some site that has a reviewer that has similar tastes to yours.

Camille


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## LaraAmber (Feb 24, 2009)

I quite agree with DaringNovelist, the algorithm fails when there is a lack of data: the user doesn't purchase their frequently, the user doesn't rate previous purchases, etc.  It's up to the user to give it valid data and the more data points the better.  The algorithms aren't thinking "you like this person and this other author writes almost exactly the same" it will think "this person has read four Hugo award winners/finalists recently, let's show the rest of those nominees" or "this person really likes Author A, B, and C, let's find books that other purchasers with similar rankings on those titles/authors also rated highly".  You even get "this person read several non-fiction books shown on The Daily Show, let's show other ones promoted."  I do trust the dispassionate algorithm over the purchaser who may have a chip on his/her shoulder or not really do his/her job (only really knows a few genres well, too willing to skate by on what sellers promote, is prejudiced against certain genres or types of authors (female, of color, lesbian/gay).  I've gone into some horrid bookstores where while they may have been part of a chain, it was clear that the purchaser had his/her own opinions on what would sell (tiny SF section, big religious fiction section, LBGT and women's studies non-existent).  Plus while the algorithm only gives you a suggestion, the real value is in the reviews.  In a bookstore you get just what's printed on the jacket.  In an online environment you can quickly see if the author is being called out for shoddy research, poorly executed plot, or other problems.    

Now algorithms can only go so far without human intervention to prevent gaming the system (paying people to give you 5 star reviews, reporting all negative reviews for removal, low number of reviews skewing results, etc.).  So there needs to be a balance.    

Over at GoodReads and Amazon I've found some marvelous books because of algorithms.  I've also found some wonderful titles based on recommendations from people.  In both cases I could have stuck to specific genres and authors, but I do branch out looking for other titles.  (You can get some great recommendations from people discussing what they like to read outside of the genre of the discussion group.)  I've also found some excellent authors who probably would have never been stocked in a regular bookstore (unknowns, small initial following).  It's the big names that are automatic orders and in sufficient quantities to ensure a copy is there when someone is browsing.


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