# Indie Authors Get Treated Badly At RT Con--Hugh Howey



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Looks like publishers and their stooges went out of their way to segregate indie authors in New Orleans Book Con

http://www.hughhowey.com/being-forced-to-sit-in-the-backlist/


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Would love to hear from others that were there.

Did you get traffic? How many books did you sell?


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I wasn't there. Friends of mine were. They've been Tweeting and FBing about this. Called one this morning to see what the deal was. Couldn't believe what I heard.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I just saw on twitter that RT tweeted that this all is stemming from one volunteer who misspoke and said 'aspiring' authors when directing traffic.

STILL, I think a separate room is not called for.  All authors should be in the same room.


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Denise Grover Swank has FBed about her experience there and it wasn't good.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Do you have a link Donna?  I went to her FB page and couldn't see anything. But maybe she has more than one FB account


----------



## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I wasn't there. Friends of mine were. They've been Tweeting and FBing about this. Called one this morning to see what the deal was. Couldn't believe what I heard.


get to the back of the bus!!! That's were all the cool kids sit anyway


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Here's the link to Denise's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/deniseswank?fref=ts

_Fixed. --Betsy_


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

KB keeps messing up the link because her last name is Sw*nk, and there's a naughty word embedded in there.


----------



## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

I love "denises[expletive]"! Does sort of break the link you posted, though.


----------



## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Damn us Brits and our silly swear words.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Donna White Glaser said:


> Denise Grover S[expletive] has FBed about her experience there and it wasn't good.


LOL I cannot believe KBoards censored Denise Grover S w a n k 's name!

I tried six times to reply to Susan's comment on Hugh's blog and got a database error. I was saying if this ever happens to me, then I am going to demand a refund of any fees I paid to participate in the con. It's bad enough that some authors get "pro status" with access to green rooms and others don't, but segregation crosses the line.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Here's what the con organizers might have been thinking:

"Gotta keep 'em separated!"

http://youtu.be/QJ9r4gM20ME


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

I didn't/don't see anything on Denise's FB author page or blog, but Jasinda Wilder did mention it on her FB page.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

So we get segregation now? The organisers won't care what any indie does, but I bet they won't do it again if the mainstream media latch onto it and embarrass them.


----------



## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

I heard that things were pretty messed up in other ways, too. Like 2+ hour lines to check out and a late start because of the fire marshal. Not the most well-organized signing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

Guys, I'm as pissed off about this as anyone, but can we please stop with the back of the bus and separate but equal comments?  This is messed up, agreed, but unequal treatment within one's chosen profession is not at all equivalent with a minority group's struggle to seen as equal human beings.  In theory, sure, but its a matter of scale - the two just aren't on the same page at all. 

I'm honestly not trying to be contentious here, but I just think we risk devaluing any legitimate outrage we have when we try and make such comparisons, because it makes it too easy for others to dismiss as tantrums and wannabe's with hurt feelings.  There are plenty of completely rational stances to take against this, we don't need to go there to make our points heard.


----------



## romanticauthor (Apr 17, 2014)

So glad I wasn't there, either as an author or reader.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Perhaps they should have segregated the rooms according to the number of books sold


----------



## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

If the event was sponsored or organized by B&N, they were taking one heck of a risk at offending people.

I'm just a Nobody, but B&N makes one heck of a lot of money off of my titles each month. I can't imagine the bottom line of Miss Hart's sales, or some of the others.

I surprised someone hasn't started a movement to boycott B&N. I guess that might be playing into the hands of the big NY houses, but still....


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Guys, I'm as p*ssed off about this as anyone, but can we please stop with the back of the bus and separate but equal comments? This is messed up, agreed, but unequal treatment within one's chosen profession is not at all equivalent with a minority group's struggle to seen as equal human beings. In theory, sure, but its a matter of scale - the two just aren't on the same page at all.
> 
> I'm honestly not trying to be contentious here, but I just think we risk devaluing any legitimate outrage we have when we try and make such comparisons, because it makes it too easy for others to dismiss as tantrums and wannabe's with hurt feelings. There are plenty of completely rational stances to take against this, we don't need to go there to make our points heard.


I edited my post above because you're right.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

*Gasp* B&N screwed up something

What's next? Someone telling me that water is wet?  


In all serious, sorry for the folks this happened to.  It's been my (albeit limited) experience that where Amazon and Kobo will bend over backwards for indie authors, B&N still has their heads up their corporate behinds.


----------



## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

Tried to comment on Hugh Howey's blog but kept getting error message. What I said was:

I thought last year's RT was bad with a separate day, granted the blizzard in May in Kansas City was not their fault. But a separate room is so much worse. 

Also: the backflips required to get Indie books to the conference in the first place were uncalled for. We had to ship them ourselves, which is fine, we are Indies. Then once at the conference we had to get them from the shipped to room, cart them to check-in, and then cart them to our hotel rooms to hold until the day of the conference when we had to cart them back to the ballroom for the signing. And then cart the leftovers back to our rooms.


----------



## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

The typical high school move. I'd like to think that the line going out of the back room was huge. It's all about how long everyone's line is too.  There is always more fun at the back table anyway.

It's amazing that the conference that I went to in Las Vegas had a self-publishing panel, and everyone was equal. But I think this had a lot to do with the people organizing. There were a lot of self published writers, and the agents were open to listen. It was the first supportive self-publishing environment that I've seen at a writer's conference.

But until the people in charge are self-publishers or work with self published projects, there is most likely going to be a lot of back rooms that will be the true underground happening. Being in the main room is so overrated.

Theme music for this event:
http://youtu.be/jrxI_euTX4A
Bowling for Soup's 
High School Never Ends!


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Just FYI - it's a personal facebook post.

Thoughts from Denise G. Swank:
https://www.facebook.com/deniseswank/posts/10203924364656194

Thoughts from Kendall Grey:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=795326497153719&set=a.320105961342444.81576.100000291277408&type=1

Thoughts from Courtney Milan:
http://www.courtneymilan.com/ramblings/2014/05/18/rts-giant-bookfair/

Thoughts from Hugh Howey:
http://www.hughhowey.com/being-forced-to-sit-in-the-backlist/

Thoughts from Elizabeth Hunter:
http://elizabethhunterwrites.com/2014/05/18/thoughts-on-indie-author-separation-at-the-rt-convention-signing-in-new-orleans/

Thoughts from KT Grant:
http://kbgbabbles.com/2014/05/an-indie-author-signing-at-the-so-called-controversial-2014-rt-booklovers-convention-massive-book-signing.html

Thoughts from Katie Graykowski:
http://www.rubyslipperedsisterhood.com/rt-virgin-no-more/


----------



## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

It wasn't just segregation. Trads were given huge tables to spread out on. Indies had maybe two feet each. They were in a back room off the main room and someone closed the doors to their room after the event started. When the organizers were finally prompted to point out a whole other room of authors, the "aspiring" comment trotted out. 

A NYT indie author pointed out to them that their were NYT authors in that room and they "respoke" but it was too late, IMHO. 

FYI - I didn't even bother to do the booksigning because I was unhappy enough with how it was handled last year. I'm SO glad I spent that time taking pictures in cemeteries (New Orleans, remember?) and buying starving artist paintings.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

This reminds me a little of Fred Gallagher, author of the web comic, MegaTokyo.

Fred is a very humble person who perhaps underestimates his impact as an author. Fred got a back table as a 'local artist' at a major ComiCon. A way back table. Back corner, near the restrooms kind of priority table. The anecdotes say he nearly shut down the convention because everyone mobbed his table to get an autograph and no one was going to see the "major" speakers they had lined up.

The next time Fred signed up as a 'local artist', they recognized his name and made him the special guest keynote speaker. (The hall they gave him was standing room only!)

In light of things like this, how was the attendance of fans for indies at the RT conference? Was it worthy of note? If it was anything like what Gallagher did, maybe RT will think things differently next year.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

The room of "other" authors was not just for indie authors. It was for all authors who had books that were not returnable--and that includes authors from Samhain, Carina Press, Ellora's Cave, and even the digital arms of the big 5. I knew someone who sat next to an author who had digital-first books from St. Martins, and I suspect indie authors could have found themselves in the Other Room simply by marking their books as returnable on Lightning Source. I do not think that the situation was good for all, but I suspect it was just poorly thought out on the part of the organizers, and not based on actual animus. Since some of the RT staff are themselves authors who would have been in the Other Room, I really, sincerely doubt that it's the latter.

In any event, here is my take: http://www.courtneymilan.com/ramblings/2014/05/18/rts-giant-bookfair/

Don't get me wrong--I still think things need to change, and as a personal matter, I don't want to participate in an event that requires my readers to stand in line for multiple hours just to buy my books. That's not in anyone's best interests. I just don't think that what happened was the result of animus toward indie authors.

But I, for one, believe that if the "monied interests" that Hugh Howey is referring to want to spend their time and attention dilly-dallying around to try and mess with RT's book fair, I'm absolutely delighted to let them bang their head against the wall. They can have RT's giant book fair. We'll take the Amazon bestseller lists in exchange. Deal?


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

Another thought that comes to mind, until very recently, the New York Times would not ever consider a self-published book for their bestsellers list.

Now they do, because they couldn't deny the numbers, and the fact that other bestsellers list were loaded with self-pubbed authors with hundreds of thousands of copies sold each. Nor could they deny that self-pubbed authors were beginning to outnumber traditionally published authors.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

This isn't going to be too popular.  

First, Hugh wasn't there.  I never heard anyone talk about the indie room as being "aspiring writers". Ever. If it happened, it was not coming from the organizers. In fact, their name tags said "published author".

In the trade room, we were constantly reminded where the bestselling indie authors were located.  I mean, it was almost constant. In the trade room alone, there were thousands of books given away, from each author.

The sheer volume of authors was astounding.  No way all of the authors could fit in one room.  Unfortunately, money talks, which is why the trade publishers were in the largest room. Mo money, mo exposure.  That's life.  The indie and ebook only publishers were in huge convention rooms, with a lot of attendees. 

Here's the thing. For a lot less money, indies received great exposure.  This was a chance to reach out to established romance readers, not turn it into a publishers versus indie argument.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Lilpenguin1972 said:


> This isn't going to be too popular.
> 
> First, Hugh wasn't there. I never heard anyone talk about the indie room as being "aspiring writers". Ever. If it happened, it was not coming from the organizers. In fact, their name tags said "published author".
> 
> ...


Just an fyi, one of my friends (and fellow author) heard the "aspiring author" thing herself from one of the volunteers who was directing attendees when she was coming back from the restroom. It happened.

Yes, there were a ton of authors and no, not all would fit in the same room. But readers were confused and had a lot of trouble finding authors they wanted to find. And I'm not sure what you mean by a "lot less money." Trad pubbed authors didn't have to pay more for their tables as far as I know. In fact, they didn't have to buy their books and bring them either.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> Just an fyi, one of my friends (and fellow author) heard the "aspiring author" thing herself from one of the volunteers who was directing attendees when she was coming back from the restroom. It happened.
> 
> Yes, there were a ton of authors and no, not all would fit in the same room. But readers were confused and had a lot of trouble finding authors they wanted to find. And I'm not sure what you mean by a "lot less money." Trad pubbed authors didn't have to pay more for their tables as far as I know. In fact, they didn't have to buy their books and bring them either.


Hey, I'm just talking as an attendee. Ya know, as a reader. I didn't get the disconnect. If you say it happened, as a writer, then that's on you. I never felt confused or felt that there was a "class" system.

When I talked about trad pubs, I meant that the money didn't come from the author. In an indie situation, wouldn't you agree that the money comes from the author?


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

Hey, I'm just talking as an attendee. Ya know, as a reader. I didn't get the disconnect. If you say it happened, as a writer, then that's on you.  I never felt confused or felt that there was a "class" system.

When I talked about trad pubs, I meant that the money didn't come from the author, but the publisher. In an indie situation, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Lilpenguin1972 said:


> Hey, I'm just talking as an attendee. Ya know, as a reader. I didn't get the disconnect. If you say it happened, as a writer, then that's on you. I never felt confused or felt that there was a "class" system.
> 
> When I talked about trad pubs, I meant that the money didn't come from the author. In an indie situation, wouldn't you agree that the money comes from the author?


I don't understand what you mean by "If you say it happened, then that's on you." What's on me? A volunteer from RT used that term which is obviously very insulting to all indies. That's on RT for not giving their staff the correct language to use. Maybe we're just having a communication issue here. I'm very glad that as an attendee that you never heard that term used.

And as for the money, I'm again not sure what you're referring to at all. All authors paid the same registration fee to attend RT regardless of publishing status.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "If you say it happened, then that's on you." What's on me? A volunteer from RT used that term with is obviously very insulting to all indies. That's on RT for not giving their staff the correct language to use. Maybe we're just having a communication issue here. I'm very glad that as an attendee that you never heard that term used.
> 
> And as for the money, I'm again not sure what you're referring to at all. All authors paid the same registration fee to attend RT regardless of publishing status.


Who said "aspiring authors". In what way were indies ignored? I was in the indie room, and it was full.
Was it a RT representative who said "aspiring author" or a volunteer? Are you trying to paint the RT organization based upon a volunteers words? Were indies stuck in a dark room, where nobody could find them? Again, I was there and the rooms were full. I'm not sure what the issue is, other than one idiot misspoke.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Lilpenguin what is your agenda here?  You pop-up here today out of the ether to make your very first posts ever on KB to defend RT. And you do it 4 times. Curious at best.


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Why does there have to be an agenda with someone posting as a new member. Howey did post that on his blog and that comes up in a google search. Kboards is not hard to find. Everyone has to start somewhere. I have been here since 2008, but that doesn't make my opinion any more valuable. 

I for one find it interesting to hear from people that were there. I am a huge romance fan and a subscriber to the RT magazine. I have been living through everyone on twitter as I don't travel well so can't go to those yearly events from RT. I would have loved to meet some authors, many of them trade published and some of them now self published and some newly found self published authors. But I do better in virtual social situations, so.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

jackz4000 said:


> Lilpenguin what is your agenda here? You pop-up here today out of the ether to make your very first posts ever on KB to defend RT. And you do it 4 times. Curious at best.


Why do I need an agenda? Honestly, I have been a member for over a year and finally said something. I felt that the RT convention was painted with a broad and unfair brush.

I was there and I never felt that there was an unfair advantage. I never had a problem finding the authors I enjoyed. I resent an author who was not there, painting the event with a broad brush.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Lilpenguin what is your agenda here? You pop-up here today out of the ether to make your very first posts ever on KB to defend RT. And you do it 4 times. Curious at best.


Posting a differing account of what happened doesn't necessitate an agenda. I for one am interested in what lilpenguin had to say, along with Courtney Milan. It doesn't negate other posters' accounts, but it does create a more rounded picture of events. We have two scenarios here. One where one of the largest industry conventions actively engages in bias against self publishers, including six and seven figure sellers. And a second where there was no bias on the part of RT and the only real insult offered was by a volunteer who had neither the influence nor the authority to present the views of the convention as a whole. The only evidence we have for either scenario are personal accounts, and it seems to me that everyone here is best served by hearing both interpretations, so they can make up their minds for themselves.

IMO, shaming or dismissing an account contrary to your own does far more to foster an agenda than lilpenguin simply detailing her view of events with the disclaimer that that's all they are (her view). It makes it seem as though the only reason you started this thread was to foster ill will between self publishers and traditional publishers and surely that's not the case?


----------



## Guest (May 18, 2014)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Guys, I'm as p*ssed off about this as anyone, but can we please stop with the back of the bus and separate but equal comments? This is messed up, agreed, but unequal treatment within one's chosen profession is not at all equivalent with a minority group's struggle to seen as equal human beings. In theory, sure, but its a matter of scale - the two just aren't on the same page at all.
> 
> I'm honestly not trying to be contentious here, but I just think we risk devaluing any legitimate outrage we have when we try and make such comparisons, because it makes it too easy for others to dismiss as tantrums and wannabe's with hurt feelings. There are plenty of completely rational stances to take against this, we don't need to go there to make our points heard.


This.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Posting a differing account of what happened doesn't necessitate an agenda. I for one am interested in what lilpenguin had to say, along with Courtney Milan. It doesn't negate other posters' accounts, but it does create a more rounded picture of events. We have two scenarios here. One where one of the largest industry conventions actively engages in bias against self publishers, including six and seven figure sellers. And a second where there was no bias on the part of RT and the only real insult offered was by a volunteer who had neither the influence nor the authority to present the views of the convention as a whole. The only evidence we have for either scenario are personal accounts, and it seems to me that everyone here is best served by hearing both interpretations, so they can make up their minds for themselves.
> 
> IMO, shaming or dismissing an account contrary to your own does far more to foster an agenda than lilpenguin simply detailing her view of events with the disclaimer that that's all they are (her view). It makes it seem as though the only reason you started this thread was to foster ill will between self publishers and traditional publishers and surely that's not the case?


Kalen. Thank you. I found so many wonderful authors at the event. I am not dismissing anyone's account, I am simply saying that the "aspiring authors" comment, as a reader, meant absolutely nothing. Again, as a reader, I did not care where my favorites were.

It seems like authors are more obsessed with the label than readers.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Thank you Lilpenguin I can see more clearly now what motivated you to post. 

@Kalen--you infer far too much from my few words.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Thank you Lilpenguin I can see more clearly now what motivated you to post.
> 
> @Kalen--you infer far too much from my few words.


No more than you insinuated from lilpenguin's posts. I don't actually think you have an agenda. I was merely pointing out how simple it is to insinuate ulterior motives on a poster's part, and how little that actually accomplishes other than fostering an atmosphere of paranoia and distrust.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Lilpenguin1972 said:


> Kalen. Thank you. I found so many wonderful authors at the event. I am not dismissing anyone's account, I am simply saying that the "aspiring authors" comment, as a reader, meant absolutely nothing. Again, as a reader, I did not care where my favorites were.
> 
> It seems like authors are more obsessed with the label than readers.


Thanks for weighing in--it's interesting to get another perspective on the situation. The more voices chime in, the more it fleshes things out.

And welcome!


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Lilpenguin1972 said:


> When I talked about trad pubs, I meant that the money didn't come from the author. In an indie situation, wouldn't you agree that the money comes from the author?


Traditional publishers don't pay anything for their authors to go to RT. If they go, the authors pay, no matter how they are published.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

vmblack said:


> Traditional publishers don't pay anything for their authors to go to RT. If they go, the authors pay, no matter how they are published.


I think the fact that it appeared the authors in the back rooms had paid less money is part of the problem.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I think the fact that it appeared the authors in the back rooms had paid less money is part of the problem.


Yes, if that was the impression someone got from seeing the setups, that the indie/nonreturnable room was the "cheap seats," that's BIG, BIG problem.

Though I had to have a good long cackle at the idea of my publisher paying for anything for me more than lunch.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

vmblack said:


> Traditional publishers don't pay anything for their authors to go to RT. If they go, the authors pay, no matter how they are published.


See? I had no idea. I just assumed that publishers paid a larger fee.

No agenda. Just dumb!


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

***********


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Courtney threw out the idea of consignment authors checking out their own books. But then the con will want to be sure they get their percent of sales, and how do you regulate which books are entering and leaving as checked out when all authors are accessibly in the same room? I've seen stickers added to consignment books so they are rung up separately from the returnables, but how do you deal with the long check-out wait times? What are the workable -- and still cost- and resource-effective -- ideas for making next year's signing work better?


Actually, that problem is already solved. They already stamped all books with invisible ink stamps so that they could know which books needed to be paid for and which were freebies brought in by the author, or books brought from home by readers to be signed by authors. So the author-run books would just be stamped with the "do not need to be paid for at the register" stamp.

I'm not sure what to do about anything else--maybe instead of a consignment percentage, a flat fee for indie authors? I'd be happy to pay a reasonable flat fee (maybe $10-$20) and get 100% of the proceeds of my sales instead of giving them 20% just for acting as a cashier.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Lilpenguin1972 said:


> See? I had no idea. I just assumed that publishers paid a larger fee.
> 
> No agenda. Just dumb!


Not dumb. That was the honest impression the setup gave. The non-returnables had WAY less room than the trad authors. That's part of why people were unhappy, because it did give readers that impression.

My cackling wasn't at you. It was just bitter trad author cackling.  Behind the smiles, there's a LOT of that.

In other conventions, people pay for their tables and make what they make using foursquare/paypal/cash, Phoenix. This problem has also been solved years ago!


----------



## Micah Ackerman (Feb 16, 2014)

I think the kids table thing is kind of a slight, but isn't it our job to simply make sure that the "Kid's table" or separate room, whatever you want to call it, is the more popular room?

The organizers of these events will start to get the message when people walk right past the trades to the back room... From the accounts that have been posted here it sounds like that is starting to happen.

I think that's cause for celebration. If some people don't want to take indies seriously, then indies need to make people take them seriously and authors who are making the NYT and other best-seller lists are doing that and paving the way.

Things are happening so fast now, the landscape is changing and that's a good thing, but it won't happen over night.

Just my opinion, I wasn't there.

Micah


----------



## Guest (May 19, 2014)

A very good rule to follow: never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.

After reading all of the information, it sounds like a pretty clear case of the VERY COMMON poor planning on the part of the convention organizations and not an attack on indies. Unfortunately, since some folks have already ran with second-hand information and sounded the alarm, the "truth" is now that the convention deliberately tried to hurt the indies in attendance, regardless of the actual facts.


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Dang it, Courtney, will you stop speaking sense? How dare you take away another chance for spouting righteous indignation!
> 
> Sounds like it was all a logistical error coupled with a training issue. Apparently the RT organizers tried separate days last year and this year they tried separate rooms. Neither worked well, but could the organizers have known that before actually trying them? I seriously doubt anyone crying, "Change is needed!" from a bully pulpit is adding much to what the organizers already know they are in desperate need of: a logistical plan for how to make these types of signings work better for the readers and the authors. (And apparently a much better training program for the volunteers!)
> 
> ...


I don't know anything about the convention or how it works, but with all the smartphone apps out there, you'd think something could be created or used for a situation like this. A scanner code that tallies up all the books sold and separated by author and title. Every book that is sold gets scanned. You scan 50 books upon entrance to the room, and when you leave, if you only have ten left then you are charged commission on those 40 books. (which would already have been scanned and in the system as sold anyway. The count out would be a double check) I know, it's probably a lot more complicated than that. Like I said, I don't know anything about these conventions and have never been to one. I just thought about scanner codes and how there must be some way to utilize them for this situation.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> The room of "other" authors was not just for indie authors. It was for all authors who had books that were not returnable--and that includes authors from Samhain, Carina Press, Ellora's Cave, and even the digital arms of the big 5. I knew someone who sat next to an author who had digital-first books from St. Martins, and I suspect indie authors could have found themselves in the Other Room simply by marking their books as returnable on Lightning Source. I do not think that the situation was good for all, but I suspect it was just poorly thought out on the part of the organizers, and not based on actual animus. Since some of the RT staff are themselves authors who would have been in the Other Room, I really, sincerely doubt that it's the latter.
> 
> In any event, here is my take: http://www.courtneymilan.com/ramblings/2014/05/18/rts-giant-bookfair/
> 
> ...


As usual, I like Courtney's explanation of what occurred. It is straight up and to the point.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Vivi_Anna said:


> As usual, I like Courtney's explanation of what occurred. It is straight up and to the point.


Me too.

To answer your earlier question, I was in the indie room. I stayed pretty busy talking to people and giving out swag, and I sold half of my books. (I brought 100 total--20 each of five titles, the max I was allowed.) I didn't see any doors closed in the room during the event, though I have had readers tell me since that they couldn't find me or didn't have time to because of all the waiting in line.

The cramping issue was pretty egregious. I had double the space (because there are two of us writing as Kit Rocha), and I still had very little to work with. The tables were super narrow, too, so there wasn't much room underneath them to stow extra swag or books.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

donnajherren said:


> Me too.
> 
> To answer your earlier question, I was in the indie room. I stayed pretty busy talking to people and giving out swag, and I sold half of my books. (I brought 100 total--20 each of five titles, the max I was allowed.) I didn't see any doors closed in the room during the event, though I have had readers tell me since that they couldn't find me or didn't have time to because of all the waiting in line.
> 
> The cramping issue was pretty egregious. I had double the space (because there are two of us writing as Kit Rocha), and I still had very little to work with. The tables were super narrow, too, so there wasn't much room underneath them to stow extra swag or books.


Thanks Donna for answering. It sounds like it was cramped everywhere.


----------



## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

That sucks. Getting separated out like that would have made me real mad. I guess its a good thing I don't go to these things.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

I've been an RT attendee since the 90s. It's an organization filled with volunteers who LOVE books and authors. RT magazine was the first advocate for Ellora's Cave and erotic romances, the first to recognize indie and small publishers to their fairs, and one of the initial review magazines which encouraged indie writers to participate at their conferences. As the years went by, they'd adjusted the convention, giving indie authors more voice and placement. Yes, there were/are problems. Yes, many things could be done another way. But I do not think it fair to call them malicious.

I wasn't happy with the separated room idea, but I agree with Courtney that they were probably thinking more along the lines of trying to figure out what money goes to BN and what money goes to the hundreds of independent sellers, than actually wanting to humiliate indie publishers and authors. Volunteers are there for free books and access to the tours. That is all. They do this out of wanting to be near books and authors. One person's mispoken label, no matter how hurtful, does not mean the whole organization thinks that way. She isn't an employee (even RT reviewers are volunteers with day jobs like you and I) and probably was overwhelmed by the vast number of attendees this year (almost twice from last).

Please, to those who have attended this conference and are familiar with the people who run it, do send your suggestions and comments to Trent. It is only through your help that this convention continues to improve. They know they have much to do, and yes, the changes could be frustratingly head-scratching, but they need your input as partners, not flame-throwers. In all my years attending, as reader and published author, I have never seen a more loyal group of volunteers who come back year in and year out, some for THREE decades, for the love of romance books. And all for what? At the end of the week, they (most of them) get their pick of free books and a holiday. My question to myself has always been, would I volunteer and do this? No. Not even for a nice vacation. So, in the end, while things aren't always perfect, I know they are always making improvements.

I also always make sure I thank the volunteers and the event organizers. They work from 5am to 1am for two weeks, with very few breaks. Sometimes, things get messed up (missing boxes of books, mislabeled boxes, things given away in the wrong bags). I've seen it all and have that happened to me on several occasions. I'd handled that by making my own adjustments. Sure, I whined about it too, but in the end, it is all a matter of learning to make things run smoothly.

Hopefully, next year, we'll see no more separation. Or perhaps, larger tables/stalls, with indies doing the paperwork, etc. I don't know. The publishing industry changes so fast these days. We as authors can't even adjust fast enough...how much so can a convention that has to be preplanned years ahead?

Thanks for reading my long post. I just feel the need to give the POV of someone who has been to RT when there were only 450 attendees and a small room of romance authors signing books. This week, they had about 3500 people, hundreds of authors of many, many genres, and even comic book writers, as well as attendees from Australia (a contingent of at least 50 came together), Germany, Austria, booksellers from Australia, NZ and Thailand and a few other countries.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

vmblack said:


> Yes, if that was the impression someone got from seeing the setups, that the indie/nonreturnable room was the "cheap seats," that's BIG, BIG problem.
> 
> Though I had to have a good long cackle at the idea of my publisher paying for anything for me more than lunch.


Go to Kendall Grey's facebook page and see the foot and half space she had. No wonder people are under the impression the indies paid less. They were sandwiched in less space than was promised.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Because I have never been to one of these things I decided to Google and found this blog for last year's con. Check out the picture about a quarter of the way down. http://goo.gl/0WTltn


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Side note: fixed the censored-word issue -- sorry about that.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Because I have never been to one of these things I decided to Google and found this blog for last year's con. Check out the picture about a quarter of the way down. http://goo.gl/0WTltn


Are you talking about the pic with the badge? Are you saying that RT would know she was signed with a publisher the week before? That her publisher would contact RT that they signed a new author by a different name (because she probably registered under her real name)? Or that somehow, RT event-runners have to call every registrant to ask if they have sold a book the week before the conference? I don't understand what you are trying to say about the picture.

The person registering/attendee click a box when they are registering what they want to be known as--> Reader or Assistant or Aspiring Author or Published Author or Publisher or Editor or Industry BigWig (I MADE THIS LAST ONE UP). The person printing those badges? She is printing out 3000 badges, following the boxes checked by the registrants.


----------



## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I had a lovely time at the fair as just someone who attended to get books signed. Both my husband and I went. When we went through the line, no doors were closed. We were actually sort of pushed toward the indie room by random forces of the crowd flow. The first person I photographed was our own lovely Deanna Chase.

In both rooms there were tables that got crowded for whatever reason. Just chair placement. Other tables were loose.

The trad room was busier as there were more tables and authors, and people were waiting for their wristband times to see the big big authors like Maya Banks and EL James. Plus check out was there.

The indie room had more energy and a happier vibe. It was still very busy even if not as crazy.

The trad room had the problem that the line to check out was snaking through the aisles. I felt really bad for about 40 trad authors you could not get to easily because the line blocked them.

I am sure some volunteer misspoke at some point. But I flowed back and forth between the indie and trad room multiple times with no trouble. I had a great brochure that told me exactly where each author was. If people were confused or had trouble, I think it was just the excitement of running around and finding people.

While I agree that maybe it wasn't the best idea to do two rooms and I'm glad the controversy means RT will have to grow again (the signings used to be on separate days), I do think that there hasn't been room in the discussion to realize there were many different experiences and only the bad ones/tough ones have had play.

I had an amazing time. Saw many lovely authors both trad and indie. And realized I never want to do a three-hour giant signing if I can help it because my bladder won't hold up for that!

Here are pictures I took of the RT 2014 showing both an overview of the rooms and some close ups so you could see the width of the table spaces. I suspect it was very simple why some people had too little space--the chairs just weren't spaced as evenly as they could have been. The announcers constantly reminded us to go to both ball rooms. Other than the check out line of doom (I was in it, and I paid an independent bookseller for all my books), it was really fun.










_Edited for size. --Betsy_


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Gennita Low said:


> Are you talking about the pic with the badge? Are you saying that RT would know she was signed with a publisher the week before? That her publisher would contact RT that they signed a new author by a different name (because she probably registered under her real name)? Or that somehow, RT event-runners have to call every registrant to ask if they have sold a book the week before the conference? I don't understand what you are trying to say about the picture.
> 
> The person registering/attendee click a box when they are registering what they want to be known as--> Reader or Assistant or Aspiring Author or Published Author or Publisher or Editor or Industry BigWig (I MADE THIS LAST ONE UP). The person printing those badges? She is printing out 3000 badges, following the boxes checked by the registrants.


Thanks for the detailed analysis of my post, but no. I was saying, obviously badly, that the organizers had all the authors LABELS ready to go. That this particular author happened to change status the week before is of no import to that. I assume (note i qualify with assume?) that if there are labels for aspiring, there are labels for self pub, and *real* authors too?

EDIT: I have heard there are tweets from the organizers apologizing or something about the mistake (not seen them) The word mistake infers an accident--something unplanned--I do not consider labeling unplanned, therefore not a mistake. They did this last year as well after all.


----------



## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

The labels you can choose when you register are

READER
BLOGGER
INDUSTRY
ASPIRING AUTHOR
PUBLISHED AUTHOR

*You choose. Nobody labels you.* You label yourself. Aspiring author is someone who has not yet indie pubbed or gotten a trad deal. After the labels are printed, you can still change who you are like that author in that photo. That was an exciting day for that author to change her status!

The volunteer who called the smaller ballroom for "aspiring authors" was just confused and wrong.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> The labels you can choose when you register are
> 
> READER
> BLOGGER
> ...


Hmmm... kind of but no. You choose from a list THEY create... they obviously have the labels pre-printed ready to go. Why have such a list in the first place? The moment you have two kinds of writer, you are segregating them into two groups. Would you be happy if they had Male Author, Female Author? Of course not. What about African American Author, White male author, author with pen name, author without pen name? Where does this kind of category/segregation stop?

The fact they request that attendees PUT THEMSELVES into a group, already suggests there will be a different level of participation/attention payed to each group. Why else have groups? Its a bureaucratic methodology. The idea is to make things efficient they will say. Efficient in this case means that that group over there (aspiring) need a little room and table and no speaker to address them, and that group over there needs lavish attention, and that group in the corner (the bloggers) can be safely ignored... give them a free drink and be done.

Before someone brings in the idea its about security, all you would need would be a tag for Organizer, and one for Writer. My contention is that labeling by them OR yourself is demeaning. What's next? A label that says Sold less than 100k units?


----------



## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

The labels thing is absolutely standard practice for any kind of professional/trade event. It enables delegates to see at a glance the kind of person they're speaking to and adjust their pitch accordingly. In my most recent job we ran one of the UK's largest conferences for finance professionals and included the following 'labels':

Staff
Exhibitor
Press
Delegate
Speaker
VIP

This sort of thing was just incredibly useful for exhibitors and other sponsors to get a handle on whether they were talking to a potential customer or a competitor. None of the speakers ever got butthurt because they didn't get a VIP badge. Exhibitors did used to try and sneak into the delegates-only sessions, so security was a factor.

I can't comment on this event, because I know nothing about it, but it does seem to me that this is all a bit of a storm in a teacup.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Hmmm... kind of but no. You choose from a list THEY create... they obviously have the labels pre-printed ready to go.


I'll be perfectly honest--I have no idea what you're talking about with this ~LABELS~ thing. As others have said, it's standard trade show practice. It helps with networking, and also sometimes keeps you from making a monumental a$$ of yourself.

I can say that no one HAD to be labeled as anything this year, because they weren't printed on the name badges. RT distributed adhesive ribbons that you could attach to your badge holder, so I suppose if you had inexplicable moral objections to such things, you could easily leave them off.


----------



## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

To be honest, my space sucked but I tried to make the best of it. I had less than a foot of space and in some pictures my face is blocked because I had to stack books partially in front of me. Several of the readers who found me said they were herded into the other room first. I was not informed prior to the convention that making my books returnable would have made any difference otherwise I would have (although I seriously doubt that would have changed the outcome).

Shayla Black and Lexi Blake were directly behind me and THEY should have had a huge line. They did not. So in my view that says quite a bit right there. 

I'm not the kind of person given to dramatics so I don't feel the need to make a scene. I'm just going to vote with my wallet and not go next year. Nothing speaks more than $$. I've been invited to several smaller signings already and I suspect I'll have a better experience there and so will the readers who ventured out trying to find me. I'm super humbled and grateful to those who stuck it out and made it through those awful lines.  They are the ones I really feel for because at least I was sitting down the whole time. 

The whole experience was worth it to have J.S. Scott show up and scream and fangirl all over me. (She warned me beforehand that she was going to do it but it was even more hilarious in action).


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

minxmalone said:


> I'm just going to vote with my wallet and not go next year. Nothing speaks more than $$.


Well, actually, nothing speaks more than, er, speaking.

Those of you who attended should let the organizers know what you liked, what you didn't like, and why you won't return, if that's the case.

Those who choose not to attend should let the organizers know why.

All, of course, done civilly and professionally.

Businesses cannot fix problems they don't know exist. (Though clearly, the organizers will have realized there was an overcrowding condition.) But if the conditions are such that you won't return, you should tell them.

My boss always said she couldn't fix a problem no one told her about. Customers would just stop coming to the quilt shop and then she would find out later through third parties that a clerk was unhelpful or something.

Edit: Non-attendance to an event could be for a lot of reasons other than unhappiness with the event--a conflict, retirement, illness, lack of funds. You need to tell people when there's an issue so they can fix it. It's not confrontation, it's information.

Just my .02 worth from reading the thread... It does sound to me like the event has possibly grown beyond their expectations. And, as far as labels, every convention I've ever been to has has ribbons to attach to badges that said "exhibitor," "press" and the like as aids to the staff and other participants.

Have they done a survey of participants? Sounds like it would be a good idea.

Betsy


----------



## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

The separation was for accounting purposes. I get that and knew it. I'm a former accountant. I understand bookkeeping. But I also know that I've done multiple booksignings with both trad and indie and we were all in one room in alphabetical order. When we checked out, we simply paid a royalty percentage to the organization based on book sales. Quite frankly, if the entire issue is about money, then charge a booth fee for anyone bringing their own stock. Why do some people assume indies won't pay? We're actually making money. I would gladly pay a fee to be treated like a professional. A group of us are paying very well for a BEA booth. 

RT does not have to be supported only by trade publishers. IMHO they're missing out on a huge financial boon by not addressing indies directly.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I've been keeping a lurky eye on this thread. I'm moving into romance later this year and I planned to go to RT next year with some of my friends who are established romance authors. (They tell me it's the party of the year, so I don't want to miss out!) I'm glad to see that it appears to be an accounting issue and not an intentional separation based on type of publishing.

However, I get where the ire is coming from. It wasn't well thought out...if nothing else, it seems RT underestimated how much space the non-returnables would need. True, there were about half the authors compared to the "returnables room," but now I guess we have a clear visual illustration of how large a part of the industry the non-returnable types of publishing make up. Hopefully next year they'll use a venue that can accommodate all the authors and fans of indie, small press, and ebook publishing. Especially since that part of the industry will only get larger over the next 12 months. 

I agree with Jana that they really need to start paying attention to how the FANS are distributing their dollars and enthusiasm, and organize their con accordingly. The fans no longer see the indies and the small presses as something different from the Big 5 stuff. Fans don't know or care about returnable vs. non-returnable goods. A different method is now called for, it seems, to give the conference attendees the kind of experience they're looking for, and paying for.


----------



## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

I was at RT and I saw the division. (Saw Courtney Milan and Lexi Blake there, too! High five!) 

I was in with the reader crowd, though. I was going to cruise around with everyone else and just join the cavalry.  (Their stuff was more fun anyway. And I got free books.) I just passed around stickers with QR codes on the back for free  books while I was there. Had a few fans hang out with me, too. 

Anyway, if you bought like a day ticket for Saturday, you got stuck in a room and had to wait a half hour (lasted actually an hour because inefficient coordination) with over 500 people in a room because people who bought the week pass got in first. The readers were good sports about it, though. 

When we got to the right floor (because they had us wait in a room together that wasn't the right floor) we were single filed through to someone who would point "trade pubbed to the left, indie pubs to the right".

The set up itself wasn't easy to navigate. Believe me, trade pubbed authors were sitting around without attention, too, because it was over-crowded in the trade pubbed room. People had suitcases filled with books waiting to get signed, having to maneuver to sort books for the next line. Sometimes I'd pause by a booth and the writer wasn't there (potty break or something).

Also, in the 'trade published' room, I could tell some authors were trying to sell their self published stuff, too. Some only had their self published stuff on the table.

To be fair, there really wasn't enough room for all the authors in one room. They had to split them up somehow. I don't think they had to do it this way. If they had a big enough room (the hotel had to have something better than that) to accommodate all authors in one space, that'd be cool.

They needed a bigger space for all authors. Lines for EL James was crazy so they had this weird coordination system they explained at the last minute. 

I know they work hard at this, but I think the multiple rooms for authors needs to be changed. 

The funny thing was, I was in panels Friday with writers, and trade pubbed authors were taking classes from self pubbed people. It was a mix/match set up there and you couldn't *unless you knew the author's background* tell who was trade pubbed or who was self pubbed based on what they taught. They both knew the business.

I was in one panel with trade pubbed writers only on the panel, along with an agent. They were woo-hooing their trade pub deals and then skirting around how much money they made. I felt weird because I was higher in the rankings than more than half of them. One literally said, "I'd write for magic beans." It was in a grateful tone, thank goodness I was chosen type of thing. 

Running into Lee Childs while walking around downtown NO was interesting though.


----------



## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Separating "writer convention" from "reader meets writer" convention probably would have worked better. 

I've been to different cons, and there's a local one where trade and self pubbed folks just sat in a room in the library with a bunch of books. This was for 'writers' but locals were told they could come in and get books around noon if they wanted.

It was decently organized and small and each author did get a half table or full table depending and they accommodated if you had more books. Readers would have had an easier time, and spend less money on the event. The thing only cost $35 for the day.

I'd check out these smaller events and let readers know to visit these. They'd be able to actually talk to you. Being at RT, I felt rushed and not wanting to take up anyone's time, and I also skipped a lot of tables. 

Anything I grabbed form a table, I plan on mailing out to some of my readers.  Some of them requested certain people when I went there.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

I see the same thing happen with RT that happened with ComicCon. What used to be the renegade con is now the big commercialized con. It's the natural order of things, as such things go.

Someone will start up the new underdog con, and the indies will go there looking to be offended by every perceived slight. So. Very. Meta.

(Or maybe I just need more coffee)


----------



## Arrington Flynn (May 17, 2014)

http://authorearnings.com/may-2014-author-earnings-report/

From the above report, I don't know how many small to medium publishers will be able to survive, if the authors jump ship to self-publishing in order to make better incomes.

Brave new world.


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

donnajherren said:


> I'll be perfectly honest--I have no idea what you're talking about with this ~LABELS~ thing. As others have said, it's standard trade show practice. It helps with networking, and also sometimes keeps you from making a monumental a$$ of yourself.
> 
> I can say that no one HAD to be labeled as anything this year, because they weren't printed on the name badges. RT distributed adhesive ribbons that you could attach to your badge holder, so I suppose if you had inexplicable moral objections to such things, you could easily leave them off.


I thought I was clear enough. I couldn't give a toss about the paper label you stick on yourself. I care about how people are treated BECAUSE of the label you stick on yourself. Standard practice is no excuse for anything. There are a lot of bad standard practices in this world that don't get changed unless challenged. They can throw all the labels away, or colour code them for all I care. What I object to is treating one group of writers poorly compared to another.

Clear enough?

Look, I will never attend one of these things so why do I care? I care because I don't like seeing injustice. If I come across as the angry man, so be it. At least I feel angry about something worthwhile (in my opinion, segregation is worth getting angry about) I'll just leave this alone now. I need to cool off.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I need to cool off.


At least we can agree on this.

The reason your post confuses me is that we're talking about the division between the traditional and indie/digital rooms at the RT Book Fair. Everyone in EITHER of those rooms wore the same "label" on their badge--it said Published Author. So it really just seems like you're getting all het up about something you don't understand and, frankly, weren't there to see. So, WTF?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Chiming in with a little thought.
I get the labels, I really do.  We have something called the Permian Basin Oil Show here every two years.  In the 70's it was every year.  Anyhow, back then anyone could attend and only the exhibitors and workers had badges.  Kids were more than welcome and everyone gave out free stuff.  Now fast forward 20+ years and kids not knowing better (make that stupid parents not watching their kids) climbing all over the equipment, so now kids are not allowed.  And everyone that attends gets a badge with your name and whatever company you work for.  
PS they still all give out freebies.


----------



## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

I  have been going to RT for many years. This was the first year I missed.  Space is a problem at every book signing.  You have 450 authors all shoved into a room and 1000s of readers trying to weave their way through tables to get to the authors.  To me, this sounds like more of a convention space issue than RT being disrespectful to indie authors and all authors.

The signing set a world record for pete's sake. There were a lot of people there.

I agree that the indie authors should've been in the same room, but because of the space issue, (lots of authors were on a waiting list to be able to sign) they could've turned away a hundred authors from signing, or opened a different room and put authors in there.  Knowing RT organizers for years, this was probably their solution to let all authors be able to sign.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

This is poor planning on the indie authors' part. They should've gotten together and made arrangements as soon as they heard about the layout so that, every time any of them needed to fart, they'd go in the other room and let it out there, thus driving the clients to the indie room. Planning, people. Think. Think.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> This is poor planning on the indie authors' part. They should've gotten together and made arrangements as soon as they heard about the layout so that, every time any of them needed to fart, they'd go in the other room and let it out there, thus driving the clients to the indie room. Planning, people. Think. Think.


I can't believe you think any of us would be so crass as to fart.

That's what assistants are for.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

CLStone said:


> Separating "writer convention" from "reader meets writer" convention probably would have worked better.
> 
> I've been to different cons, and there's a local one where trade and self pubbed folks just sat in a room in the library with a bunch of books. This was for 'writers' but locals were told they could come in and get books around noon if they wanted.
> 
> ...


RT is a reader convention and a reader-meets-writer convention. It's very thin as a writer convention. I think you're confusing it with RWA.

RT is reader with writer stuff tacked on awkwardly.

RWA is writer with reader stuff tacked on awkwardly.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

donnajherren said:


> At least we can agree on this.
> 
> The reason your post confuses me is that we're talking about the division between the traditional and indie/digital rooms at the RT Book Fair. Everyone in EITHER of those rooms wore the same "label" on their badge--it said Published Author. So it really just seems like you're getting all het up about something you don't understand and, frankly, weren't there to see. So, WTF?


^^^This^^^ I feel he's getting angry about something he doesn't understand and that he made judgments on a convention whose history he doesn't know or care to know. RT was one of the first readers convention celebrating small published and indie authors. Without their reviews and openness to erotica and erotic romance, there wouldn't have been an Ellora's Cave. They were one of the first who talked about self-pubbed romance books in their magazines.

I also nominate Hugh Howey to sponsor a Hugh Howey's Big Indie Ball, with awesome food and indie authors. He's worked in a book store before; he has connections! Just his name alone will get many attendees interested. Yay! I'd totally be all for a Hugh Howey Big Indie Ball.


----------



## donnajherren (Mar 7, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> RT was one of the first readers convention celebrating small published and indie authors. Without their reviews and openness to erotica and erotic romance, there wouldn't have been an Ellora's Cave. They were one of the first who talked about self-pubbed romance books in their magazines.


Heck, they even gave one of my (self-published) books a shiny Reviewers' Choice Award.

...it really is shiny. And pointy. *pets it*

(BTW, I saw you a couple of times at the con, but never had a chance to say hi. So hi. Is it creepy if I tell you that you looked smoking in that black dress? Probably so.)


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> I also nominate Hugh Howey to sponsor a Hugh Howey's Big Indie Ball, with awesome food and indie authors. He's worked in a book store before; he has connections! Just his name alone will get many attendees interested. Yay! I'd totally be all for a Hugh Howey Big Indie Ball.


I'd get to shop for a gown!!! 

If I was involved with setting up a signing convention, I wouldn't make it about publishing type. The hedges between the various paths to publication are being trampled, thank goodness. Soon, it'll just be one wide path.


----------



## minxmalone (Oct 28, 2012)

I'd be all for that type of event. I am allergic to drama in all forms so I just want to meet people and have fun. Let's make that happen. If you need sponsors for the No-Drama-for-your-Mama Reader Gala then I'm in


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

donnajherren said:


> (BTW, I saw you a couple of times at the con, but never had a chance to say hi. So hi. Is it creepy if I tell you that you looked smoking in that black dress? Probably so.)


LOL. You should have come on over to say hi! I love meeting KB Writers. Thank you for the compliment. As a roofer, I don't get to dress up anywhere else except at RT. So I love to play at RT .


----------



## Gothic Queen (May 19, 2014)

I'm new here. I have no agenda. I'm an indie author. I write lesbian Gothic Historical Romances. So, allow me to introduce myself.....

This sounds so much like the lower classes as opposed to the upper, elite class on the Titanic. Below deck for the indies and above deck serving caviar for the uppers! If it wasn't so disgusting it would be funny.

But the winds of change are blowing very intense now.....Barnes and Noble won't be around for long. What then for the elitist NY Publishers? What shall they offer the author then? No shelf space. No bookstore (not many indie bookstores and not much real reading nowadays....except on digital devices). What then? Amazon. Amazon. Amazon. LOL. Indies and digital reading. That's the future. Who will be sitting below deck then...Hmmm? LOL.

I won't support RWA or any of the major writing organizations. 

Patty G. Henderson


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Gothic Queen said:


> I'm new here. I have no agenda. I'm an indie author. I write lesbian Gothic Historical Romances. So, allow me to introduce myself.....
> 
> This sounds so much like the lower classes as opposed to the upper, elite class on the Titanic. Below deck for the indies and above deck serving caviar for the uppers! If it wasn't so disgusting it would be funny.
> 
> ...


Hi, Welcome!

And I give up trying to explain/give the other side's POV . Off to write.


----------



## Guest (May 19, 2014)

Gothic Queen said:


> I'm new here. I have no agenda.


Your post SOUNDS like an agenda, particularly in light of the actual facts as opposed to the hyperbole that started this whole mess.

When the actual circumstances are looked at, it is painfully clear the issue is not an attempt to disparage the honor of indies but rather the very mundane and common issue at conventions of not having enough space. LOOK at the pictures that were shared. Both rooms were equally jammed up. From looking at the images, it looks like both rooms were jammed up shoulder to shoulder. The convention did not plan correctly for the volume of people who attended. Poor planning does not equal conspiracy. And so long as indies INSIST on screaming conspiracy people will continue to not take them seriously in the industry.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Gennita Low said:


> And I give up trying to explain/give the other side's POV . Off to write.


Seriously. I'm uncomfortable with the whole "us against them" mentality. Like quite a few people around here, I'm both us and them.

(More ways to publish means more books for readers. And I am, first and foremost, a greedy reader who wants MOAR GOOD BOOKS. Reader me does not care how this happens, only that it does.)

We're all very lucky to be writers now, in this particular point in history. We have so many choices now; isn't that exciting and fun? I think it is.


----------



## Gothic Queen (May 19, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> Seriously. I'm uncomfortable with the whole "us against them" mentality. Like quite a few people around here, I'm both us and them.
> 
> (More ways to publish means more books for readers. And I am, first and foremost, a greedy reader who wants MOAR GOOD BOOKS. Reader me does not care how this happens, only that it does.)
> 
> We're all very lucky to be writers now, in this particular point in history. We have so many choices now; isn't that exciting and fun? I think it is.


But as much as we want to wish it away or be politically correct, etc., there has been and it continues to this date, a very elitist attitude toward indie authors. Many are big names and very vocal about it. And they are nasty about it too.

Personally, I'm a reader and an author, and I buy and read books....doesn't matter who publishes them.....by both traditional NY Publishers and indies. I am just saying that many will be go out of their way to make indie authors less than traditional and that is disgusting and should stop. We all write with the same instruments, right? Right? We all tell tales and want readers. Right?

So, no, no agenda. Just, well, disgusted that things like this still happen.


----------



## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Your post SOUNDS like an agenda, particularly in light of the actual facts as opposed to the hyperbole that started this whole mess.
> 
> When the actual circumstances are looked at, it is painfully clear the issue is not an attempt to disparage the honor of indies but rather the very mundane and common issue at conventions of not having enough space. LOOK at the pictures that were shared. Both rooms were equally jammed up. From looking at the images, it looks like both rooms were jammed up shoulder to shoulder. The convention did not plan correctly for the volume of people who attended. Poor planning does not equal conspiracy. And so long as indies INSIST on screaming conspiracy people will continue to not take them seriously in the industry.


Julie, my day job involves dealing with a LOT of events on school properties, some ridiculously small (15 cub scouts in a cafeteria), others quite large that virtually take over entire campuses. Concerts, author signings, film shoots, athletic competitions, outdoor movies, the works.

The keys to successful events are, 1) rent enough space, and 2) hire enough staff. Few people want to do either. It sounds to me as if RT was one of those events that tried to cheap out on space. Looking at the photos I'd wager a hundred bucks that I could have walked through those rooms and found at least half a dozen safety violations (by California standards, anyway--don't know what Louisiana requires) involving over-capacity rooms, too-narrow aisles, blocked fire exits, improper electrical cabling, etc. JUST GUESSING, NOT ACCUSING. I hate to think what would have happened if someone had pulled a fire alarm or, god forbid, there was an actual fire.

The convention did not seem to rent enough space for the volume of people--readers and authors alike. They had a choice: Rent a larger space, limit attendance, or roll the dice and crowd everybody in and pray that nothing bad happened. They took the third option.

Actually, having people dissatisfied with their room and the overcrowding is probably the LEAST awful thing that could have happened.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Gothic Queen said:


> I'm new here. I have no agenda. I'm an indie author. I write lesbian Gothic Historical Romances. So, allow me to introduce myself.....
> 
> This sounds so much like the lower classes as opposed to the upper, elite class on the Titanic. Below deck for the indies and above deck serving caviar for the uppers! If it wasn't so disgusting it would be funny.
> 
> ...


Welcome!

Just ignore Julie, she's always in a mood. You just keep stoking the underdog fires. If we all think they're out to get us, it puts a chip on our shoulders and makes us work harder and get better (and bitch and moan, but we won't go there). So keep inspiring us!

p.s. Cool sounding genre. I can't even begin to imagine the costumes.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

this thread has gone mostly smoothly, let's keep it that way.  It's been a useful discussion and the comments by people who actually attended the event have been enlightening.  

Patty, welcome to KBoards.  We strive for passionate but civil and reasoned discourse here.  Except for my cousin vrabinec.  He's just here for the fart jokes.
 

Betsy
KB Mod


----------



## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


----------



## SusannahScott (May 19, 2014)

This.

"It also means that the parity we see in our author earnings charts between self-publishing and Big 5 publishing has a lot to do with the latter's existing titles and not their new releases. How you decide to publish your manuscript today means looking at the difference in earnings due to recent works. Self-published authors are not just holding their ground with Big 5 authors when it comes to releases after 2011, they are out-earning Big 5 authors by a 27% margin."

Thank you HH! The whole report--> http://authorearnings.com/may-2014-author-earnings-report/


----------



## Gothic Queen (May 19, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> this thread has gone mostly smoothly, let's keep it that way. It's been a useful discussion and the comments by people who actually attended the event have been enlightening.
> 
> ...


Thank you most kindly, Betsy. I am a very civil but passionate woman. I've been writing since the late 60s, early 70s, cutting my teeth with short stories. I do firmly believe that the publishing landscape has begun a very deep and wide sweeping change. Both digital publishing and reading and Amazon will play roles. The bookstore, as we know it, will go away and change into something else. But I have no idea why big publishing cannot or won't see this. I love paper books, I admit it, but I love reading on my Kindle Paperwhite too. There will always be those who love paper but the reality is that most people cannot and will not be separated from their smart phones, ipads and digital devices. This is where they will read everything from books to magazines to newspapers. Big publishing will have little to offer the author if they take digital rights and epublishing rights with little in return once you remove the dangling carrot of bookstore exposure. All will change, I believe.

I love civil discourse.


----------



## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

jackz4000 said:


> Looks like publishers and their stooges went out of their way to segregate indie authors in New Orleans Book Con
> 
> http://www.hughhowey.com/being-forced-to-sit-in-the-backlist/


From the Steven Zacharius article that Hugh included a link to: "Publishers couldn't possibly afford to sell the book away for $ .99. If this were the business model and publishers were making greatly reduced revenue on the sales of these titles, the publishing industry would go belly-up. There would be no way for the publishing company to recoup their author advances and as a result, these advances would drop substantially. Free or reduced price books is not a viable business model for publishers."

Huh?
Take a look at how many of these free books on amazon are traditionally published:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_3?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=top+100+free+kindle+ebooks&sprefix=top%2Cdigital-text%2C221&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Atop+100+free+kindle+ebooks


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

sstroble said:


> From the Steven Zacharius article that Hugh included a link to: "Publishers couldn't possibly afford to sell the book away for $ .99. If this were the business model and publishers were making greatly reduced revenue on the sales of these titles, the publishing industry would go belly-up. There would be no way for the publishing company to recoup their author advances and as a result, these advances would drop substantially. Free or reduced price books is not a viable business model for publishers."
> 
> Huh?
> Take a look at how many of these free books on amazon are traditionally published:
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_3?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=top+100+free+kindle+ebooks&sprefix=top%2Cdigital-text%2C221&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Atop+100+free+kindle+ebooks


Steve that was just cruel to my kindle. 
Thanks for the link.


----------



## Guest (May 19, 2014)

Thanks for the information from those who were actually there.  I do plan on attending RT, for the first time, next year in Dallas, and I'm excited about it.    If indies are indeed treated poorly, I can make that determination on my own.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Here is a really cool thing Mark Coker did for the Smashwords' authors at the RT 2014 conference. He put 349 novels by the Smashwords' romance authors attending the conference onto a thumbdrive which was included in the goodie bags. Now that is thinking!

Read more here: http://blog.smashwords.com/2014/05/smashwords-romance-authors-promoted-at.html


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Here is a really cool thing Mark Coker did for the Smashwords' authors at the RT 2014 conference. He put 349 novels by the Smashwords' romance authors attending the conference onto a thumbdrive which was included in the goodie bags. Now that is thinking!
> 
> Read more here: http://blog.smashwords.com/2014/05/smashwords-romance-authors-promoted-at.html


Now, *that* is awesome.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

This promo idea was sent out through email asking authors to participate by offering a novel. It wasn't just random authors picked by Mark. But Smashwords probably paid something towards sponsoring the welcome bag.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

I tried civil discourse, but I found dat course over dere was more fun&#8230;

A couple of points to consider:

1. Contact the organizers of RT and inform them that there were some writers who felt they were being slighted and explain why. Before you totally vilify the organization, give them the chance to fix it for next time.

2. Trade shows I've attended as a vendor and as a customer had some vendors with huge amounts of floor space and others who were really packed into tiny, single table spaces. Vendors were charged for floorspace by square footage. Those big vendors paid through the nose for all that space. They also had multimillion-dollar displays. A company that forks over that much money expects visibility in return. Also-I wasn't at RT but this does happen at events I've attend-sometimes the prime real estate on the floor is also in the main room because it is the only place the setup will fit. At this stage of my career as an independent author, I certainly can't afford a setup like that. I'd be very happy with a little table in the back corner. Why, I'd even settle for a table next to Vrabinec, so long as they give me a fan and some air freshener.  

3. Being an independent writer is the hard path to follow. We have to bust our butts doing everything ourselves that publishers do (or are supposed to do) for writers as a service. Some of us succeed wildly, some of us don't. Whatever the outcome, we all take great pride in the work we are doing. It is easy to be hurt by someone's ignorant comment. If you find yourself enraged by the situation, then use this as a educational opportunity to improve yourself before God and Mankind: now you have an inkling of what various minority ethnic groups around the world have had to endure for centuries. Rise above it and make yourself a better person for it.

4. If all else fails, if RT won't change because they agree with that offending label or perhaps they were in cahoots with the "Grand Big 5 Conspiracy to Discredit Independent Authors" (GB5CDIA-'Gibseedia'. The '5' is silent. A nefarious organization of scum and villainy from all about the galaxy), if the trade shows continue to try to marginalize us, then there is only one tenet we can turn to: "*Success is the best revenge*." Form our own trade show for independent authors! Of course, to really succeed, we'll need authors who appear on the bestsellers list. And top-drawing authors who have sold thousands or millions of books. And we'll have to have it in Boston or Providence! (Cuz' then I can afford to attend.) Boston has great restaurants and Providence has Waterfire! (How surreal that would be to have a couple hundred writers staring at the flames with 100,000 other mesmerized people at the waterfront.)


----------



## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Yeah it does sound like this is more a case of growing pains than anything. I hope everyone gives their input on what worked and didn't. I know conference organizers always have more on their plates than they can deal with, but I'm really glad the romance world is at least trying to bring indie writers into the tent.


----------



## PatriceFitz (Jan 8, 2011)

Let's get on this planning of an Indie Con.  I've offered to do it...and the thinking a year ago was that it wouldn't fly unless it was a "fringe" event held in conjunction with another more traditional Con--but I think that's not true any more.  I think the very idea of it being Indie could be exciting.  

I'll start a thread.  

And thanks for the first-hand accounts.  It's more dramatic to get all excited, but more useful in the long run to look at the facts.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Gennita Low said:


> This promo idea was sent out through email asking authors to participate by offering a novel. It wasn't just random authors picked by Mark. But Smashwords probably paid something towards sponsoring the welcome bag.


If you read Mark's blog post, he offered it to all the romance authors attending RT. I'm sure RT did one too, but Mark did his own for Smashword authors.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If you read Mark's blog post, he offered it to all the romance authors attending RT. I'm sure RT did one too, but Mark did his own for Smashword authors.


.
It's the same promo.


----------



## Lilpenguin1972 (Aug 9, 2012)

I really appreciate some of the authors who were there speaking up.  I honestly don't think there was a nefarious motive or a desire by RT to make the indie authors feel inferior.  I went to the con in Kansas City, and I thought it was crowded. It was nothing compared to this year's convention. I suspect that Courtney's explanation is correct.  I would have loved it if I could simply purchase my books directly from the author.  Or maybe they could do all the signings in one day, just at different times. I don't know the answer, but there were just too many people.

I suspect part of it has to do with the location (New Orleans) and part has to do with the sheer number of authors and fans.  I just don't think RT was prepared for the amount of people.  It's as simple as that.  I hope, in the midst of this argument, that RT figures out a way for the readers to have a better experience. RT is a reader's convention, and I gotta say, I didn't enjoy the lines.  However, every author I met was incredibly gracious and wonderful.  I never knew there was a problem until afterwards. And, it never even occurred to me that the separation was anything other than a logistical move and commercial move (I've since been corrected).  No way that many people could have fit in one room. We barely fit in two rooms. I just assumed traditional publishers paid a premium (Again, since been corrected).


----------



## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

I ended up having surgery and unable to attend, but I had been told b4 the event that all the authors were going to b in 1 room. Add to that the massive incompetence with their ads (don't get me started) and my experience with RT was horrible. Glad I didn't go. As of right now, it appears that they didn't bother doing one of my ads. I had ppl searching for it with no luck. They only saw the banner which was printed on the crappiest vinyl money can buy. Sorry. I'm starting to rant... 

I still vote for HollyCon in Vegas. Indies, food, & fun.


----------



## Julianna Blake (Jun 18, 2013)

Wow, that convention sounds like a mess. I'm only going by what people are saying here, but it sounds like the readers were treated like cattle being herded through a chute rather than paying customers who deserved to have proper signage put up for them, which directed them to where they _wanted_ to go.

The real issue here is that, *if *, as one author stated (and I don't know because I wasn't there and never saw how RT was promoted to authors beforehand), the authors were promised a 3 foot section at a table, but instead got only 1.5 feet per person, that is unacceptable. It doesn't matter if some authors had 3 feet and some didn't--it's fraud to advertise that authors will have 3 feet, and then give only 1.5 to some authors, because you planned poorly or oversold the table spots.

The people who planned this _should have known_ the size of the tables, the size of the room, how many seats they could legitimately fit, and how many spots they had sold...waaaay in advance. They obviously either planned it poorly, or deliberately oversold the tables. There should have been no more than two people per table, if they did indeed advertise the spaces as such.

And the trad authors who had lines going past their tables, effectively blocking them? I feel sorry for them, too. This basically sounds like a chaotic mess, and I feel sorry for anyone who attended it, whether trad, indie, or reader. It sounds like no one came out of this a winner.  *I'm sure there were some wonderful people who worked hard on the convention*, but there were obviously also _some_ people who didn't. That's sad for everyone.


----------



## Harry Manners (Jul 6, 2013)

This news really got to me, I have to say. For a while now I've been coming around to thinking that maybe the paradigm shift in publishing was nearing its peak. 
I'm still convinced that indie is becoming the norm, but this is all too direct a reminder that prejudices die hard.


----------



## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

H.M. Ward said:


> I still vote for HollyCon in Vegas. Indies, food, & fun.


This is something I could get behind. Nobody put indies in the corner at Hollycon!


----------



## Guest (May 21, 2014)

P.J. Post said:


> "We have met the enemy and they are us."


Yep!

I look forward to Dallas and so do a number of my author friends who attended RT this year in New Orleans. Next year I'll start a thread for people who are attending Dallas. Maybe we can meet each other once we get there.


----------



## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

Harry Manners said:


> This news really got to me, I have to say. For a while now I've been coming around to thinking that maybe the paradigm shift in publishing was nearing its peak.
> I'm still convinced that indie is becoming the norm, but this is all too direct a reminder that prejudices die hard.


The paradigm shift in the publishing industry happening right now has not peaked, but only just begun.

I will with confidence compare this current change to be on par with Gutenberg's press. Like Gutenberg's press, ebook technology has been done before. But also like Gutenberg's press, the technology has finally been put into a form at the right time that has allowed it to catch on with the general population. As a result, it is creating a disruptive change in the publishing industry, because there is now no longer just one way to get a book published.

I think the gold rush stage of the new self-publishing industry is over--meaning, you could spread word about publishing your book merely on the basis that digital publishing was new and unique. Now it has pretty well been established with the public that there are good, self-publishing authors out there putting out quality stories.

Self-publishing as an industry is trying to relearn the same lessons traditional publishers have already learned. The foundations are not entirely set. But many of the things that work for the established publishers don't work for or don't apply to independent writers. So, the market is going to evolve and grow those facilities needed by independent writers.

Printers Book Manufacturers are beginning to wake up to a new market potential for themselves. There are only just over 30 book manufacturers in the United States. And they have a VERY limited clientele: five big publishers and a handful of smaller publishers. Now they have a whole new and massive group of potential customers: independent writers. There are thousands of us! Just five years ago, if you went to one of these companies you would get charged the top-dollar rates to print a run of books. Now, they are starting to offer the same rates to independent writers that the offer to large publishers. It used to be that a book manufacturer wouldn't talk to you unless you knew how to prepare your text for printing. Now, they have newer technology and they've put people in place to help and guide independent writers in preparing their materials. (That's a _huge_ change!)

Where is the publishing industry headed? I don't know. There are so many permutations and approaches to self-publishing that it is difficult to tell just what might become the mainstream in the future. One aspect about self-publishing strikes me as unique to today: distributors of ebooks have a double-competition going on. Not only must they compete for customers, but they must also compete for writers as well--more than traditional publishers ever had to in the past.

Independent authors are rapidly becoming a force to be reckoned with in the markets. Even the New York Times had to relent and stop a more-than-century-old practice of snubbing self-published authors. The issues and perceived attitudes as described from the RT Con will become a thing of the past.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Joliedupre said:


> Yep!
> 
> I look forward to Dallas and so do a number of my author friends who attended RT this year in New Orleans. Next year I'll start a thread for people who are attending Dallas. Maybe we can meet each other once we get there.


See you there! I look forward to meeting you! Also, when you're ready and registered, just PM me and I'll give you pointers on getting more exposure and maneuvering around the crowd, as well as meeting readers . Dallas is going to be fun!


----------



## Guest (May 21, 2014)

Gennita Low said:


> See you there! I look forward to meeting you! Also, when you're ready and registered, just PM me and I'll give you pointers on getting more exposure and maneuvering around the crowd, as well as meeting readers . Dallas is going to be fun!


Thanks Gennita! I'll do that, and I look forward to meeting you too!


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

You can paradigm your shifts at NINC or RWA or any writing con you want to attend. RT is a reader conference. As long as you bring free books by the hundreds, no reader will care whether you shifted a paradigm or not . Bring lots of non-ebooks, swag, fund an event with food, bring more print books or give away free Kindles, sign lots of cards because you aren't going to sell your ebooks when they can download them at home, talk to readers and hand them some cool swag, give away more books. Be prepared to spend money at an RT conference. Why? Because there are 700 authors, with 20 big names who will command everyone's attention. That leaves 680 authors to figure out a way to stand out.

RT has come a long way, but don't expect its attendees to change because there is a paradigm shift. They are there to have fun, dance (sometimes with romance cover models), enjoy costumes, meet with their favorite authors, and bring home with them boxes of free books and swag. They don't care whether you're trad or indie or whatever. If some friends recommended you, they will seek you out, get your book or shake your hands. Readers are like that; they love authors recommended by friends and bloggers. I know because I attended as a reader for years and not as an author checking out paradigm shifts in the publishing industry.


----------

