# THE BLANKETY-BLANK ?!#@#! CATEGORIES!



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

I have categories/genre questions. So here I am, polling.  

Caddy suggested that Amazon's Gay & Fiction be replaced on my FindReadLove blog by LGBT. I tend to agree. Any opinion why not?
Also, should I input all other genres under LGBT too, for example LGBT / Fantasy? Isn't that a bit bleh? I mean, why should LGBT people be segregated in another category?

What are the big genres? Off the top of your head? Just to see if I have them right?

Thanks for any help.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

At the risk of giving up political correctness, I would want LGBT separated.

I am not interested in their issues and so stories involving that demographic would not have much emotional resonance for me because I don't understand it. And if those "issues" are not part of the story then it'd hardly need to be classified LGBT to begin with, would it?

So by separating that out, I don't have to wade through a bunch of titles that don't interest me as a reader.

However, I'd rather see Fantasy/LGBT than  LGBT/Fantasy.
To have one giant category for LGBT would, indeed, smack of segregation rather than categorization. And some not-LGBT readers certainly would explore the sub-genre, so why not?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Quiss said:


> At the risk of giving up political correctness, I would want LGBT separated.
> 
> I am not interested in their issues and so stories involving that demographic would not have much emotional resonance for me because I don't understand it. And if those "issues" are not part of the story then it'd hardly need to be classified LGBT to begin with, would it?
> 
> ...


Being LGBT is NOT an "issue". Do you care about women issues? Black issues? Native American issues? Should they all be segregated as well just because the MC happens to fall into that particular group?

God knows you wouldn't want to read a good book in which the MC happened to be LGBT. Couldn't have that.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Being LGBT is NOT an "issue". Do you care about women issues? Black issues? Native American issues? Should they all be segregated as well just because the MC happens to fall into that particular group?
> 
> God knows you wouldn't want to read a good book in which the MC happened to be LGBT. Couldn't have that.


I don't think Quiss meant it that way. 

JR, what is your opinion about it? Should I do a LGBT category, or LGBT subcategories under the other genres, or avoid any LGBT mention?

And what about the main genres? Any opinion?

Thanks all for helping!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I don't think Quiss meant it that way.
> 
> JR, what is your opinion about it? Should I do a LGBT category, or LGBT subcategories under the other genres, or avoid any LGBT mention?


I wouldn't mention it unless it is erotica or the point of the story IS being gay.

ETA: Of course, you take the chance on "haters" taking offense, but most people won't these days.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> I wouldn't mention it unless it is erotica.


Or maybe stories centered around (and excuse me if I don't know what I'm talking about, tell me if I'm wrong) the difficulties of coming out?
That would maybe be useful to have it in a special category?
Is that reasonable?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Or maybe stories centered around (and excuse me if I don't know what I'm talking about, tell me if I'm wrong) the difficulties of coming out?
> That would maybe be useful to have it in a special category?
> Is that reasonable?


I edited my response because I meant to mention that. If the point or main issue is being gay then it might be worthwhile although there are "Native American" issues such as being discriminated against that non-Native Americans might identify with and want to read about. Still, if the point of the story is about being gay then putting it in a LGBT category makes more sense to me. A lot of our issues are "human" issues.

ETA Rant: Do you not read about war if you've never been in a war? Not read about the middle ages because we don't live then? Not read about someone from another country because you're not? Human struggle is universally identifiable and assuming that one can never identify with one particular class of human being is rather sad.

What annoys me is when things like mysteries in which the MC is gay are classified as "LGBT". I am horrified at the number of people who should have heard of or read authors like Joe Hansen and Michael Nava haven't because of having a gay protagonist and thus "no one but someone gay would identify with them". They're mysteries. What does that matter?

End of rant


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I guess the qustion is, do you have enough LGBT readers who would be looking for books in that category? If so, it makes sense to let them have a way to find books they want. If not, I think a simple comment in the blurb should be sufficient. 

( I perceive the dragon in one of my stories as being gay, but since it's not germane to the story line, it doesn't matter. Interestingly, one of my beta readers picked up on something in the speech patterns of that particular dragon, and read him to his children as being British.)


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> I guess the qustion is, do you have enough LGBT readers who would be looking for books in that category? If so, it makes sense to let them have a way to find books they want. If not, I think a simple comment in the blurb should be sufficient.
> 
> ( I perceive the dragon in one of my stories as being gay, but since it's not germane to the story line, it doesn't matter. Interestingly, one of my beta readers picked up on something in the speech patterns of that particular dragon, and read him to his children as being British.)


It's a well known fact that all British are gay!!  
Or is it all gays are British? I always mix them up! kr kr kr

I don't care about how many LGBT readers I have... It's not really the point, I'll feature my fellow authors' books. I'm sure we can get all kinds of readers.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It's a well known fact that all British are gay!!
> Or is it all gays are British? I always mix them up! kr kr kr
> I don't care about how many LGBT readers I have... It's not really the point, I'll feature my fellow authors' books. I'm sure we can get all kinds of readers.


Well, of course all gays are British! Why didn't I notice that before? 

I think having a single LGBT category is a good idea but otherwise, I honestly think that most novels with LGBT characters belong in the genre category. Some people specifically look for LGBT stories or classify their work as such. They do have a right to do that, after all.

ETA: It is when that is used as a "ghetto" for any novel with a gay protagonist that I get annoyed. If being gay is the main point, then it makes some sense. Otherwise... no, I don't think it does.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> Being LGBT is NOT an "issue". Do you care about women issues? Black issues? Native American issues? Should they all be segregated as well just because the MC happens to fall into that particular group?
> 
> God knows you wouldn't want to read a good book in which the MC happened to be LGBT. Couldn't have that.


I'm not sure I deserved that. I did not say that LGBT was an issue.
Every book has 'issues' or we'd all be reading Ikea manuals. If those issues involves two men in love or two women then I'm just not interested and your outrage isn't going to make me any more interested.
I'm not interested in reading books where the action revolves around wrestling, or baking cupcakes or riding ponies, either. And, yes, I find books about women's issues tedious and I can't really fully relate to "black issues". Why are you so sensitive? 
There are chick lit categories, interracial categories and all sort of sub-cats. I think I made clear that I'd like to see LGBT as a sub-category, NOT as a main one.

My books also contain gay characters, as does my life and my work. Let's take it easy, huh?


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Maybe I could just put them in the usual categories and tag them LGBT if there is a coming out or specific LGBT-related topic?
So that people interested in these stories could search by tag?
Except for the erotica, of course.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Quiss said:


> I'm not sure I deserved that. I did not say that LGBT was an issue.
> Every book has 'issues' or we'd all be reading Ikea manuals. If those issues involves two men in love or two women then I'm just not interested and your outrage isn't going to make me any more interested.
> I'm not interested in reading books where the action revolves around wrestling, or baking cupcakes or riding ponies, either. And, yes, I find books about women's issues tedious and I can't really fully relate to "black issues". Why are you so sensitive?
> There are chick lit categories, interracial categories and all sort of sub-cats. I think I made clear that I'd like to see LGBT as a sub-category, NOT as a main one.
> ...


Your lack of interest does not convince me that all novels with gay protagonists should be put into some ghetto to save your sensitive eyes from seeing us.

ETA: Actually, you did say being gay is an "issue" and are you proposing that books about wrestling and baking cupcakes be stuck in some subcategory ghetto? Funny, but no. Gays are human beings with the same "issues" as everyone else. I won't be relegated to the back of the bus.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

If you are having more than one category - such as romance/fantasy and family saga/romance - then it would make sense to have LGBT as an additional category, for people who have books that they are actively branding elsewhere as LGBT.  

A LGBT character/romance doesn't in itself make a book LGBT - but if someone has written something that concentrates on experiences relating to sexuality rather than (or as well as) personality - then they might want to be able to target it to readers who are actively seeking out tales about those experiences.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> Your lack of interest does not convince me that all novels with gay protagonists should be put into some ghetto to save your sensitive eyes from seeing us.


Again with the knee jerk. Do you march up and down mainstreet waving placards calling for the annihilation of straight folks? That's sure what this feels like.
"save your sensitive eyes from seeing us" is so last century. Get over it and join the real world.

What about those who specifically WANT to read about gay characters? Because you don't want the LGBT mentioned they have to wade through a whole bunch of "straight" books to ferret out titles containing LGBT characters.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Gays are human beings with the same "issues" as everyone else.


+1


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Actually, in romance an LGBT subcategory is the one place that probably makes sense or the most sense. There are quite a few people who like gay romances and that is probably an area where being gay has a specific impact on the books place in the genre. But sticking a science fiction novel or a mystery in an LGBT subcategory just because they have a gay protagonist simply makes no sense to me.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Your lack of interest does not convince me that all novels with gay protagonists should be put into some ghetto to save your sensitive eyes from seeing us.


Really? Did you ever stop to consider that maybe having an LGBT category will HELP people who are looking for LGBT stories FIND them? Why do you immediately consider a separate category a "ghetto"?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> Really? Did you ever stop to consider that maybe having an LGBT category will HELP people who are looking for LGBT stories FIND them? Why do you immediately consider a separate category a "ghetto"?


Because it is. It means that books with a gay protagonist are segragated and not found unless someone is "looking for LGBT stories". What if I just happen to be looking for a good book? Why should all books with LGBT protagonists be assumed not to fall into THAT category? Putting books with LGBT main characters into a subcategory assumes that LGBT people are 'different' and that our issues are not human issues.

ETA: Funny thing that no one suggests making a "black" category because blacks might be looking for novels with black protagonists. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe having a black category (native american, disabled, any minority)category will help people who are looking for those. Also they would very conveniently hide them from everyone else. Thus the term "ghetto". But we're the popular object to be shoved in the closet these days.

So unless the point of the story is being gay (such as coming out) or it is erotica or possibly romance, no, "LGBT fiction" does not belong in a subcategory and if I want a story about Family, I'll take the trouble to look for it. ETA: I consider those exceptions because the sexuality of the person directly impacts the story.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

What is LGBT? Lesbian/Gay??


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> What is LGBT? Lesbian/Gay??


Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender. It is often written LGBTQ now.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender. It is often written LGBTQ now.


Thank you. In the past couple of years I have learned more new words and acronyms/abbreviations on these boards than I've done in the last 20 years.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thank you. In the past couple of years I have learned more new words and acronyms/abbreviations on these boards than I've done in the last 20 years.


Ah but the question is: Have we taught you all of the rude ones?


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgender. It is often written LGBTQ now.


D*mn. LGBTQuair?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> D*mn. LGBTQuair?


"Q***r" or "Questioning". There is some debate over what the Q should stand for. Since many of us within Family use the 'Q' word as being all-inclusive, I prefer that. But it offends a lot of people too just as blacks referring to themselves by the "n" word offends many people. And I admit that someone who wasn't LGBT using the "q" word on the forum would outrage me, so I never claimed to be consistent. 

ETA: I would say it is safest to assume the "Q" is for questioning.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Because it is. It means that books with a gay protagonist are segragated and not found unless someone is "looking for LGBT stories". What if I just happen to be looking for a good book? Why should all books with LGBT protagonists be assumed not to fall into THAT category? Putting books with LGBT main characters into a subcategory assumes that LGBT people are someone different and that our issues are not human issues.
> 
> ETA: Funny thing that no one suggests making a "black" category because blacks might be looking for novels with black protagonists. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe having a black category (native american, disabled, any minority)category will help people who are looking for those. Also they would very conveniently hide them from everyone else. Thus the term "ghetto". But we're the popular object to be shoved in the closet these days.
> 
> So unless the point of the story is being gay or it is erotica or possibly romance, no, "LGBT fiction" does not belong in a subcategory and if I want a story about Family, I'll take the trouble to look for it.


First of all there is no way to "conveniently hide" books in Amazon's store. It's not like you need to go to some back room of the Amazon store to find the books.

Imagine my surprise when I stumbled across this category in Amazon: "*Books > Romance > Multicultural*". Wow. They DO have a category for books that feature protagonists of a non-white ethnicity. Of course it is possible for books to be listed in MULTIPLE categories so the books that are listed there are also found in OTHER categories. But I'm sure that the authors with books at the top of that best-seller list are pissed and feel marginalized.

More specific categorization gives MORE, not less, visibility to books so that people that want to read those books can find them.

John Green & David Levithan's book _Will Grayson, Will Grayson_ is about gay teens. It isn't specifically an LGBT "issues" book (although, by default, gay people & characters, especially gay teen characters, have different experiences in this world than straight people & characters. Just like African Americans have different experiences than non-African Americans.) It is currently listed in these two categories:

*Books > Teens
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teens > Literature & Fiction*

It would not be a stretch for it to also be listed in "*Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teens > Literature & Fiction > LGBT*" AND that would give it increased visibility, so that people that were SPECIFICALLY looking for a book with LGBT teens in it could find it.

And you really should consider that nobody in this thread has said that only lesbians and gays want to look for LGBT books before you say something like this:


JRTomlin said:


> ETA: Funny thing that no one suggests making a "black" category because blacks might be looking for novels with black protagonists.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Fwiw, I think if the theme is LGBT, then yes, I think adding to that category makes extra sense (in addition to marketing sense). Much in the way a Christian character doesn't make something Christian fiction, but a Christian theme does; the same applies here, I think.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> "Q***r" or "Questioning". There is some debate over what the Q should stand for. Since many of us within Family use the 'Q' word as being all-inclusive, I prefer that. But it offends a lot of people too just as blacks referring to themselves by the "n" word offends many people. And I admit that someone who wasn't LGBT using the "q" word on the forum would outrage me, so I never claimed to be consistent.
> 
> ETA: I would say it is safest to assume the "Q" is for questioning.


It was a pun around the discussion of your incoming book, actually. 
I'm not part of the "family" as you put it, but I'm LGBTQ-friendly (and curious, if that's the right term for someone that learns casually about LGBTQ lifestyle/problems/opinions). I would be mortified if I was chastised for using the wrong word or misunderstanding some issues, so please be nice.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Re-read Quiss's comments about how she has no interest in "LGBT issues" (which of course are different from human ones) and rethink what you just posted, Nathan. And we are not talking about Amazon categories where books are allowed MULTIPLE categories, thus putting a novel in "LGBT" does not keep it from being in another category.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I understand that there is a lot of frustration with the categories, but goddamn is one of the words in our filters...sorry, Nathalie, your version wasn't quite filtered enough.



Betsy
KBoards Moderator


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Monique said:


> Fwiw, I think if the theme is LGBT, then yes, I think adding to that category makes extra sense (in addition to marketing sense). Much in the way a Christian character doesn't make something Christian fiction, but a Christian theme does; the same applies here, I think.


Makes sense, Monique. It is not that I object to an LGBT category if that is the theme.



Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It was a pun around the discussion of your incoming book, actually.
> I'm not part of the "family" as you put it, but I'm LGBTQ-friendly (and curious, if that's the right term for someone that learns casually about LGBTQ lifestyle/problems/opinions). I would be mortified if I was chastised for using the wrong word or misunderstanding some issues, so please be nice.


Actually, I realized that although it took me a minute. 

Nathalie, I was certainly not chastising you. Your question made perfect sense. The meaning of the "Q" is something that gets debated. 

ETA: I think it is great that you are giving some thought to your categories and when novels might or might not fit into an LGBT category.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> I understand that there is a lot of frustration with the categories, but goshdarm is one of the words in our filters...sorry, Nathalie, your version wasn't quite filtered enough.
> 
> ...


Next time I'll use #@*! instead! Don't taser me! Don't taser me! Arrrgllllgllgllll


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

Monique said:


> Fwiw, I think if the theme is LGBT, then yes, I think adding to that category makes extra sense (in addition to marketing sense). Much in the way a Christian character doesn't make something Christian fiction, but a Christian theme does; the same applies here, I think.


+1 The Christian analogy came to mind when I was reading this thread.


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It's a well known fact that all British are gay!!
> Or is it all gays are British? I always mix them up! kr kr kr
> 
> I don't care about how many LGBT readers I have... It's not really the point, I'll feature my fellow authors' books. I'm sure we can get all kinds of readers.


They are? I wish you'd told me sooner....I wouldn't have had to steal my husband from Canada!


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Actually, I realized that although it took me a minute.
> 
> Nathalie, I was certainly not chastising you. Your question made perfect sense. The meaning of the "Q" is something that gets debated.


I know you didn't. 
I just mean that not everyone can be on top of every topic---two years ago I might not have understood LGBTQ as I understand it now. I'm also just beginning to learn about feminism. YES. Just now, a few months ago. There's always more than meet the eye, and people generally need a spark to begin and try to understand what is different or foreign to them.

I always fear that someone will pound on me a little on those threads because it's so easy to say the wrong word or have an assumption. I just want to say that I'd like to debate gently and be shown gently where I lack understanding, in general, instead of fearing a backlash.

It's quite the same with autism. LGBTQ is not a handicap of course--but it's perceived as a difference, even though nowadays it's less and less perceived that way. I'm sure I reach more people by explaining again and again what autism is, instead of just feeling angry, that's all I'm saying.

When I see you and Quiss "fight", I see two people who have failed at communicating correctly (I'm so going to be pounded a little about that!). And I'd rather not see people having grudges instead of debating about MY #@*! CATEGORIES.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Caddy suggested that Amazon's Gay & Fiction be replaced on my FindReadLove blog by LGBT. I tend to agree. Any opinion why not?
> Also, should I input all other genres under LGBT too, for example LGBT / Fantasy? Isn't that a bit bleh? I mean, why should LGBT people be segregated in another category?


Speaking as a disinterested bystander addressing Nathalie's questions:

Yes, I'd replace Gay Fiction with LGBT. If you look at publisher websites that's what they do.

Yes, if the main protagonists are gay I'd list the book under LGBT. It makes sense to categorize a book where it's easily found by readers searching for it and avoided by people not interested. Similarly, Amazon has categories for Multicultural, Christian, African American, Jewish, etc. I think the real question here is whether the books in the LGBT category should overlap into other relevant categories. That's your call and probably depends on how much work your willing to do.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

GWakeling said:


> They are? I wish you'd told me sooner....I wouldn't have had to steal my husband from Canada!


You need to keep up with these things.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Dara England said:


> Speaking as a disinterested bystander addressing Nathalie's questions:
> 
> Yes, I'd replace Gay Fiction with LGBT. If you look at publisher websites that's what they do.
> 
> Yes, if the main protagonists are gay I'd list the book under LGBT. It makes sense to categorize a book where it's easily found by readers searching for it and avoided by people not interested. Similarly, Amazon has categories for Multicultural, Christian, African American, Jewish, etc. I think the real question here is whether the books in the LGBT category should overlap into other relevant categories. That's your call and probably depends on how much work your willing to do.


And I have already said I strongly disagree. That a MC being gay somehow turns it into "LGBT fiction" is just ... I can find no word but offensive.

The books that end up in Multicultural, etc are not EXCLUDED from other categories. If it is a science fiction novel with an LGBT main character, it isn't an "overlap". It is what it is just as if the character were black or for heaven's sake an alien. It can be in science fiction if it has an alien MC but not if it has a gay character? Really?


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And I have already said I strongly disagree.


I know you've already strongly disagreed, JR. I'm operating under the assumption Nathalie wants to hear many opinions.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

What about the other genres/categories? What are the main ones? Please list yours and let's see if I have it right!


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Just letting you know what I found out not so long ago, the category should no longer be "LGBT" but "LGBTO." 
At this point I'm still trying to figure out who are the O (others) ...


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Off the top of my head there's:

Fantasy
Science Fiction
Romance/Erotic Romance + possible subcategories  
Young Adult
Inspirational
Mystery 
Thriller
Nonfiction + all its subcategories 

Honestly, I'd look up some publisher websites or the Amazon cats and see how they break it down. It'd probably be quickest and easiest.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

For romance and erotica, how would an LGBT sub-category aid in searchability? It seems like it would do the opposite by clumping a bunch of disparate interests into a discordant lump of otherness.

B.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

As a practical matter, I try to convince Amazon to have a lot of subcategories because they have a million books to categorize and books go into more than one category. The same isn't true for a site like yours, Natalie. I think the main categories make more sense for you. I write Historical Fiction and Fantasy. While they may fit into subcategories on Amazon, I wouldn't expect you to be able to do the work to put things into hundreds of possible subcategories or into multiple categories. 

Now if you decided to do that, probably going with the categories and subcategories that Amazon has would make the most sense. But that's a lot (although they still need more). I started out assuming that you didn't want to do that though. 

Now, as we've discussed and Justin just mentioned, for romance and erotica LGBT subcategories do make sense.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Dara England said:


> Off the top of my head there's:
> 
> Fantasy
> Science Fiction
> ...


Thanks Dara! 

I sometimes disagree with how the publishers break down the categories.
I'd rather build mine as they make sense (to me, to others).

What is the inspirational genre?
Can you give me an example?

Also, I wonder why YA is a main category. I can understand children's books because adult generally don't want to read them unless it's with their kids. Why not using YA as a PG warning instead? Can't you have YA Fantasy? Just like plain old fantasy? I wonder if I should just use it as a tag instead (or a subgenre to the main genres maybe)?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

*nudge nudge* I don't see Historical Fiction on your list.  

ETA: The others you might want to consider that I don't see on Dara's list are:

Action and Adventure 
Literary Fiction 
Paranormal Romance 
Teen and Young Adult

ETA: and you might want to add the previously mentioned Christian fiction.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> Re-read Quiss's comments about how she has no interest in "LGBT issues" (which of course are different from human ones) and rethink what you just posted, Nathan. And we are not talking about Amazon categories where books are allowed MULTIPLE categories, thus putting a novel in "LGBT" does not keep it from being in another category.


Stop attacking my post to further whatever cause you feel the need to further. For what it's worth, I don't even think of LGBT as a minority - it's just not that special. Choose to be a victim of my supposed homophobia if you must.
Go back to the original post by Natalie and replace the word LGBT with the word TEENS. Or Zombies. My answer would have been precisely the same. I don't care to read about a teen as the MC any more than a gay one or a zombie. So I'd like to know if that's the case before I pick up the book. 
But if I DO, then I just have to drill down into the next sub-category. Seems workable to me. Natalie is also using multiple categories, btw.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> As a practical matter, I try to convince Amazon to have a lot of subcategories because they have a million books to categorize and books go into more than one category. The same isn't true for a site like yours, Natalie. I think the main categories make more sense for you. I write Historical Fiction and Fantasy. While they may fit into subcategories on Amazon, I wouldn't expect you to be able to do the work to put things into hundreds of possible subcategories or into multiple categories.
> 
> Now if you decided to do that, probably going with the categories and subcategories that Amazon has would make the most sense. But that's a lot (although they still need more). I started out assuming that you didn't want to do that though.
> 
> Now, as we've discussed and Justin just mentioned, for romance and erotica LGBT subcategories do make sense.


I don't mind putting them in a few categories, as long as there's no abuse and no "cheating". It's just a checkmark on a category, no biggie.

I'd rather not erase or move categories afterwards, though, so 'd like to have it right the first time, hence the ten thousand questions.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> *nudge nudge* I don't see Historical Fiction on your list.


There's a lot of genres that are not yet on my list! 
They'll appear as soon as I have a book to put into them.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I don't mind putting them in a few categories, as long as there's no abuse and no "cheating". It's just a checkmark on a category, no biggie.
> 
> I'd rather not erase or move categories afterwards, though, so 'd like to have it right the first time, hence the ten thousand questions.


If you're going to do that, you might give a limit of three or four categories. I have always thought that Amazon's current limit of two is too limiting, but an unlimited number kind of used to encourage "cheating". Sad but true that some people would be bound to do so. I did suggest a few that you may or may not have thought of.

And I'm sorry that I started an argument. I think you asked a perfectly valid question.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> If you're going to do that, you might give a limit of three or four categories. I have always thought that Amazon's current limit of two is too limiting, but an unlimited number kind of used to encourage "cheating". Sad but true that some people would be bound to do so. I did suggest a few that you may or may not have thought of.
> 
> And I'm sorry that I started an argument. I think you asked a perfectly valid question.


I think 4 or 5 max might be okay. That leaves a few choices without being too "I'm all over the place".
Anyway, when you're in Fantasy / Epic Fantasy / Dragons / LGBTQ (with all the gay British dragons--lol!), you are in all of the above categories (Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, etc) since it imbricates in Wordpress.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> What is the inspirational genre?
> Can you give me an example?


I'm not real knowledgeable on that genre but I think Inspirational is the same as Spiritual or Religious. I'm assuming any religion or philosophy can go under Inspirational, but am not 100 % positive on that, so it might be safest to nix Inspirational and just call religious, new age, or philosophic material Spiritual.



Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Also, I wonder why YA is a main category. I can understand children's books because adult generally don't want to read them unless it's with their kids. Why not using YA as a PG warning instead? Can't you have YA Fantasy? Just like plain old fantasy? I wonder if I should just use it as a tag instead (or a subgenre to the main genres maybe)?


I think there are some readers who just aren't interested in reading anything where the MC is a teen, no matter the genre, but you're right that a tag system might work well for this. Actually a tag system might be the answer to a lot of your questions about categories. When in doubt you can place things in the cat that seems most relevant and tag it with other search terms.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

It's been hard to figure out if you've gotten any help on this issue. I can tell you my experience.

I have a romantic comedy that is primarily about the wedding of eight lesbians.

I originally had it in "Humor" and "Lesbian" but it didn't do so hot. Lesbian wasn't quite right for it.

During a free run, I moved it to "Humor" and "Romance -- Contemporary" and it did better. I did get one review about the gay issues in the book, but out of 22 reviews, I'd say that's fine.

Now with the new categories I have it in 

Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Humor
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Contemporary
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Romantic Comedy

And it's doing much much better.

So from purely a sales standpoint, put it in the category for the storyline, not the sexual orientation of the characters, for best fit. Even coming out stories, or hardship books about being gay are probably going to find a wider audience in "Coming of Age" than in gay categories.

The only true exception would be erotica as many of us tend to be in the mood for one flavor or another in a sex scene, but GASP, there are no categories there! I think relying on key words for that is fine and adding LGBTQ keywords also helps readers who WANT gay protagonists find it.

In all honesty, I think readers actively looking for gay story lines are going to be discovering books in other ways (reviews on gay blogs, etc) rather than random searching.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> And I have already said I strongly disagree. That a MC being gay somehow turns it into "LGBT fiction" is just ... I can find no word but offensive.
> 
> The books that end up in Multicultural, etc are not EXCLUDED from other categories. If it is a science fiction novel with an LGBT main character, it isn't an "overlap". It is what it is just as if the character were black or for heaven's sake an alien. It can be in science fiction if it has an alien MC but not if it has a gay character? Really?


Just chiming in to tell Nathalie that I pretty much agree with this. An LGBTQ category is good to have because it will aid readers looking for books with those characters or themes, but I don't think LGBTQ books should be excluded from other categories. So a fantasy novel with a gay MC could be put under LGBT, but I think it should also be listed under fantasy.

It's the exclusion that's offensive, I agree. I also take issue with the idea that a book featuring gay main characters is automatically an LGBTQ book. But for book categorization purposes, I can see why it would be useful to have an inclusive LGBTQ category because it would help me find LGBT books if I were looking for them.

To me? Reading a book (a fantasy novel, just for example) that features a gay main character is no different than reading one with a straight main character. I don't understand those who feel that it is. Experience is experience. A story's a story. A person's a person.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

TexasGirl said:


> So from purely a sales standpoint, put it in the category for the storyline, not the sexual orientation of the characters, for best fit. Even coming out stories, or hardship books about being gay are probably going to find a wider audience in "Coming of Age" than in gay categories.


This!  LGBTQ readers are not the only ones who will read stories about gay "issues."


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I responded here over an hour ago but it didn't show up I guess and I took off.  I want to clear up a couple of things.

1. I did mention also historical fiction, saga or family saga, coming of age, and drama, too, as I was mentioned different genre my books fit into.

2. As far as LGBT or gay, I again was talking about my books. My main character in the 5th book is gay. The second half of the 4th book deals with his struggle as he realizes it in 1940's USA and his coming of age. The fifth book is about his struggle, the discrimination and beating of gays during the 20th century, and it is a gay romance, too. 

Because of that I was only talking about a book with a GAY main character. Not lesbian, bi, trans. Although all of my books do have at least one gay or lesbian chracter in them, simply because they've always been part of my life and I guess that transferred. Now I am committed to doing that moving forward because it's ridiculous to assume that some families, work places, etc do not have anything but straight there.

That said, because my 4th and 5th book are about a gay, I said I have seen "Gay fiction"  on some sites and "LGBT" on others. I have seen "Gay romance" on some sites and on others it is LGBT romance. (Also "Lesbain Fiction" but I didn't mention that as I was trying to get MY books classified.) Sometimes as a sub-genre it is romance under LGBT, etc. I said I didn't know how she wanted to do it, but I would think LGBT. I also said I didn't know how she wanted to do it re: sub genres, etc.

HOWEVER, I do think it is important to have SOME kind of category that lets people know the main character is not straight and that the main theme of the book is about the issues that person deals with that are unique to their sexual perference. i.e. struggle to accept, fear, denial, coming out, coming of age, love, romance, historical in regard to rights, beatings, discrimination. Why? Because not only LGBT want to read that, so do straights who understand we are all human and have embraced friends and family, co-workers who are LGBT. We (I am straght, although what does it matter) are also interested in reading about these issues because we give a da*n about those in our lives who have faced these issues. I don't want a separate category to make any group of people "less than" and tend to take offense if people think that about me. I want it so that people can actually FIND books they want to read.

Just like there is Women's Fiction some places and Men's Fiction or Men's Adventure. Is it discrimation? I've lived through real discrimination as a female and know what it feels like. A book genre that helps people find what they want (and, yes, make help them avoid what they don't), is not something I find offensive. There are too many bigger things that are offensive, like the fact that ONLY 12 STATES in the USA recognize gay marriage as legal, for one thing.

I don't want to read about men going on fishing trips somewhere primitive or kayacking in the mountains just for the adventure. Classifying that as men's adventure helps me avoid that. Doing so doesn't mean I discriminate against men. People who don't want to read about gay issues (and there ARE gay issues, like fighting for marriage rights, being beaten to death not so long ago and police looking the other way) should be able to choose not to read about them too. Maybe it bores them. Some might not like that fact, but it really just boils down to helping people find what they do and do not want to read.

3. Oh, and by the way, I wanted that book listed in other categories as well. Not just LGBT. I agree they shouldn't be only in LGBT, etc.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Also, I wonder why YA is a main category. I can understand children's books because adult generally don't want to read them unless it's with their kids. Why not using YA as a PG warning instead? Can't you have YA Fantasy? Just like plain old fantasy? I wonder if I should just use it as a tag instead (or a subgenre to the main genres maybe)?


I agree that YA should be a subcategory and not a main category.
Assuming that any fiction category could have any fiction subcategory, here is how I might set the fiction cats and subcats up:

*Main Categories - pick one*

Mystery
Romance
Speculative 
Horror 
Action (Men's Fiction)
Drama (Women's Fiction)
Humor
Erotica
Children's
(Don't forget non-fiction.)

*Sub Categories / Tags - pick up to three*

(Perhaps users could add sub categories / tags?)
Family Saga
Divorce
Literary
Animal characters
Adventure
Christian
Historical
Coming of Age
For Children Up to 3
Potty Training
For Children 3-5
For Children 5-8
Middle grade
G - no sex or violence, suitable for all ages
YA - MC is a teen
PG - mild sexual references or mild violence
NA - MC is college age
LGBT - Not a vanilla story
R - Adult situations or violence
Regency
Victorian
Pirates
Time Travel
Alien Invasion
Cops
Spies
Werewolves
Vampires
Ghosts
Science
Fantasy
Elves
Fairies
...


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

I would LOVE it if there was a category for love stories. There's a lot of readers who want a romantic book, but not necessarily one that meets the incredibly narrow restrictions of the romance category/genre.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Cherise, I have to disagree. The main categories should include Historical Fiction. And "Drama" is technically books written for stage or screen. Yes, a lot of people ignore that and put books there, and I put mine there for months. My books are dramatic. I'm not saying Drama can't be there and not saying I won't use it again, but HF needs to be there.

And I personally disagree with a rating system for sex and violence. How many books in a bookstore having ratings on them? Exactly none. If it isn't cozy, christian, children or YA one must assume most anything could be in a book, except erotica with no main story line. The sample lets them know the feeling of book.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

These proposals are for Nathali's website's categories, not for Amazon's categories, just to clarify what this thread is about.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Quiss, anyone who think IKEA manuals are inoffensive reading has never tried to put together an entertainment center by herself.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> These proposals are for Nathali's website's categories, not for Amazon's categories, just to clarify what this thread is about.


Yes, I knew that.  HF needs to be a main category. Look at the size of it on Amazon. The other stuff I said about ratings I still stand by for her website or anywhere. Just my opinion. I think it's amatuer to rate books by sex and violence, as it is not done anywhere else for books. it also creates major problems. What is graphic sex to you may not be to me. What is graphic violence to me may not be to you. Who judges that? Do readers need their hand held? I don't think so. They need to know the genres so they know if they are interested.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Re-read Quiss's comments about how she has no interest in "LGBT issues" (which of course are different from human ones) and rethink what you just posted, Nathan.


Quiss's comments have no bearing on what I had written. Your stance from the beginning was that an LGBT category would be some sort of ghetto. I disagree. I stand by what I wrote.

But, JR, since there _are_ people out there that have no interest in reading about LGBT characters or LGBT themes or LGBT experiences, maybe there should be a "straight" category "ghetto" so that easily offended people like yourself don't think you're being told to sit at the back of the bus.



JRTomlin said:


> And we are not talking about Amazon categories where books are allowed MULTIPLE categories, thus putting a novel in "LGBT" does not keep it from being in another category.


I misread Nathalie's original post. The line below made it seem (to me) that Caddy had made a comment on or about Nathalie's blog about an Amazon Gay Fiction category.



Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Caddy suggested that Amazon's Gay & Fiction be replaced on my FindReadLove blog by LGBT.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Caddy said:


> I responded here over an hour ago but it didn't show up I guess and I took off. I want to clear up a couple of things.
> 
> 1. I did mention also historical fiction, saga or family saga, coming of age, and drama, too, as I was mentioned different genre my books fit into.
> 
> ...


That was very clear to me in your email, sorry if I made it seem that was not the case.
Actually, I'm asking the question also because I have other "gay" books to classify, and to me it was strange having LGBTQ as a main genre.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Thank you all for the suggestion and the debate--though a bit tense--is interesting to me!  

I'll come back in a while to give you all a list of my categories to debate further.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Dara England said:


> Similarly, Amazon has categories for Multicultural, Christian, African American, Jewish, etc.


Do you think they'd add one for left-handers? My latest children's book is aimed at left-handers


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Okay, here are my thoughts. Feel free to debate. 

I've used so far those categories:


Drama
Erotica
Fantasy
___ Adventure
___ Clockpunk
___ Dark Fantasy
___ Epic Fantasy
___ Paranormal
______ Ghost Fiction
___ Urban Fantasy
______ Mythology
______ Police Procedurals
Historical Fiction
___ Family Saga
Humor
___ Satire
Mystery
___ Thriller
______ Crime Fiction
Romance
___ Erotic Romance
Science Fiction
___ Dystopian

I will add to them as I receive more work.

For the LGBTQ category issue, I don't want to rehash the other genres under that category.
I have opted for a LGBTQ tag, that will allow people actively seeking those books to find them easily, and those who prefer other kind of relationships to avoid them if they want to.
The LGBTQ tag will be used when it is of importance in the story (romance, erotica, or coming of age -- maybe even non-fiction, if there are non-fiction books about LGBTQ) and not to just specify that the main character is L, G, B, T, or Q (if this is important for the story in another way, it should appear in the book's blurb).

I intend to do it with main topics of interest (for example, I want a zombie tag in order to find the zombie books, and then Julie can actively avoid them all).

 

Other ideas?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Okay, here are my thoughts. Feel free to debate.
> 
> I've used so far those categories:
> 
> ...


There is another thread asking that we petition Amazon for more genres under Historical Fiction. Someone who likes Egyptian Historical fiction might not want to read about WW11.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

My understanding is not that an LGBT category exists (or the not-wholly-inclusive alternate name, whatever it is at present) not to keep LGBT stories away from the sensitive eyes of people who don't want to read it, but because it's such a growing subgenre that it makes good sense to mak those stories easier for eager readers to find.

That said, I wonder if my novel qualifies.  The main character isn't gay, but her husband is, and his closetedness is the big instigator of the plot (and its conclusion.)  What do you guys think?  Should I try it there?  I am planning to do a promo soon with that book, but I don't want to launch it up a chart in a category where most readers might find it really disappointing.  (Spoiler alert: the husband takes his own life in the end.  It's not exactly an uplifting story.)


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And I admit that someone who wasn't LGBT using the "q" word on the forum would outrage me, so I never claimed to be consistent.


Glad I didn't ask where the Q was.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

I wish they just reintroduced the tags. 
I don't want to necessarily read LBGTQ books in my erotica (although my own personal preference doesn't mind the female bi or the lesbian... but thats another story.) But I don't want the LBGTQ filtered out of the choices I read in my other genres... I just don't go hunting for it, so probably wouldn't actively go to a category for it.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> The main character isn't gay, but her husband is, and his closetedness is the big instigator of the plot (and its conclusion.) What do you guys think? Should I try it there?


Boy, that's a tough call. He doesn't really have a lot of scenes or dialog even though it is a big part of the plot. I'd say it could go either way. Not real helpful, I know, but I can see why you are wondering. I would say no more than yes. Simply because I feel his religion is a bigger instigator than his sexual preference, although they tie in to each other.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought, too.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

El, just from what you described, I would say no. And I mean, LGBTQ books have a history of being depressing as all get-out, so that's not the reason. I just get a feeling that it's not something that really works in the category as a whole. To me, the LGBTQ category would be for books especially about the issues and lives of being such, whether fiction or non. It basically has to be a huge part of the plot or the characterization to count, imo. A side story wouldn't really cut it in my eyes. (Sorry if it's bigger than that, that's just what I'm garnering here.)

Nathalie, I think just having a tag for LGBTQ (and really, if you're doing a tag you might whittle it down further to gay, lesbian, etc. since usually such a tag tends to be predominately M/M and it can be a pain to wade through when you're looking for something else...but that's just a suggestion for down the line.) I think an actual category would cause dilemmas like you've encountered. I label my lesbian romance under both romance and lesbian categories, because their identities are a huge part of the plot. Part of the story is to help likeminded readers have something to relate to that doesn't end in doom and gloom and suicide. So for that, I specifically market lesbian audiences and thus put it in that category. My fantasy series, however, has a main lesbian couple (and lots of bisexual themes) but it will always be a large fantasy story first. I probably won't market it as a "lesbian story" since that's not the center focus of the plot. KWIM? 

(And tensen, Q can usually stand for "queer," which is a word currently going through a reclamation process by the community to which it pertains. It's not necessarily a slur anymore if used in the right context, but it's very easy to use wrong and offend if you are not part of the LGBT community.)


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

I think you're right about being more specific in the tags, Hildred, I see that. Maybe I can add a few other tags for each book too, to help people categorize and search.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Nathalie,

Family Saga probably shouldn't be a sub category of HF on your site, but a genre of its own. People write family sagas that are not historical. For instance: a five book series about 5 sisters that all live in the 1990's. Not historical, but a family saga.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Caddy said:


> Nathalie,
> 
> Family Saga probably shouldn't be a sub category of HF on your site, but a genre of its own. People write family sagas that are not historical. For instance: a five book series about 5 sisters that all live in the 1990's. Not historical, but a family saga.


Should it be under another category? Or a main one?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Should it be under another category? Or a main one?


There are a lot of loyal family saga readers (I prefer historical family saga) so you could probably have it as its own genre.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Honestly, I think this should be the main category:  Saga.

Under "Saga" there should be subgenres.  

-family
-historical

Others would just fall under the main category of Saga for the sake of simplicity. A saga has almost grown to mean "series".  Hence the "Twilight Saga".  I am writing a saga right now that is not about a family. It is also taking place during this century.


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