# Agent interested in me!!! Anyone know TCT? Also...contract question



## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Hey guys,

Cinzia DuBois from Tin-Can Telephone Literary Agency is interested in representing me, which is exciting.

They're located in Edinburgh, UK. Anyone have experience with them?

Also, there was some language in the contract she sent me that I wasn't too sure about. Is this standard?

"I shall be entitled to charge you for the following concerning works written by you:

1.	Books and proofs bought by the agency for promotional purposes and for submission to publishers abroad. 
2.	Photocopying of manuscripts and sales material (press cuttings etc.)
3.	Couriers
4.	Other exceptional expenses which may be incurred with your prior approval"


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## Ross Harrison (May 5, 2012)

Isn't conventional wisdom that if an 'agent' is going to charge you for things, they aren't a proper agent?


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## Berries (Feb 5, 2015)

> "I shall be entitled to charge you for the following concerning works written by you:
> 
> 1. Books and proofs bought by the agency for promotional purposes and for submission to publishers abroad.
> 2. Photocopying of manuscripts and sales material (press cuttings etc.)
> ...


No, this isn't standard. Agents don't charge... I'd think twice before signing


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Ross Harrison said:


> Isn't conventional wisdom that if an 'agent' is going to charge you for things, they aren't a proper agent?


I'm inclined to agree, though at least she isn't charging for a fee for her general surface.

Anyone know if this is standard practice? Maybe it is in the UK?


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Berries said:


> No, this isn't standard. Agents don't charge... I'd think twice before signing


I'm going to try and hop on a call with her first to see what's up with this.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Agents _never_ charge their authors for anything, so this can't possibly be a serious / professional offer. Sounds like a vanity shtick to me.

This is doubly true if they contacted you first, not the other way round.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

C. Rysalis said:


> Agents _never_ charge their authors for anything, so this can't possibly be a serious / professional offer. Sounds like a vanity shtick to me.
> 
> This is doubly true if they contacted you first, not the other way round.


I contacted her and she requested the manuscript, then got back to me 2 weeks later. Standard process.

Their agency sounds legit, though. I'll have to ask her tomorrow during out call.

Will report back.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Kat M said:


> I live in Canada and had a well known British agency repping me for several years - there were no charges. My husband was also represented by a British agent for a time and she didn't charge him for anything either. What you're mentioning definitely isn't standard in terms of British literary agencies.


Good to know. I'll be speaking with her tomorrow and will be asking about these and any other charges.

One question I'll definitely be asking: if I choose not to pay for promotional copies or book submissions, does this mean you (my agent) will not be submitting my books to editors? Will manuscripts be sent instead via email?


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Something to keep in mind: agents are only supposed to make any money when their author does. If they help you sign with a publisher, they get a cut. They should be motivated to do their best for you for that reason. Because if they don't, they get no cut.

If the agent gets money without a contract being signed, they already make a profit and might not be very motivated to work hard on your behalf. Besides, there's no way for you to know whether the amount charged actually correlates with the amount of photocopies made etc.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

C. Rysalis said:


> Something to keep in mind: agents are only supposed to make any money when their author does. If they help you sign with a publisher, they get a cut. They should be motivated to do their best for you for that reason. Because if they don't, they get no cut.
> 
> If the agent gets money without a contract being signed, they already make a profit and might not be very motivated to work hard on your behalf. Besides, there's no way for you to know whether the amount charged actually correlates with the amount of photocopies made etc.


Very good points. I would ask for receipts in that case, and the name of the publisher it was sent to.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Puddleduck said:


> Based just on what you pasted above, it doesn't sound like the contract gives you the ability to choose not to pay for those things. It sounds like by signing the contract with this language in it, that is you giving blanket permission for them to do all of those things and then charge you for them. Which, aside from that being not the way things are done at all in a reputable agency, leaves you on the hook for an unknown amount of money, based on what they decide to charge you, because by signing you've already given them permission to do so.
> 
> (I don't have legal training or anything, but I look at contracts for a living, and looking for those little loopholes/details is part of what I do. Always remember: what they tell you in person or on the phone or in an e-mail doesn't matter. Don't believe what they tell you some part of the contract means or how it will be enforced. Only what's actually written in the contract itself matters.)


Awesome feedback. I would definitely make sure everything we talk about is included in a revised contract before signing.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

From a strictly business standpoint, I looked at the authors listed on the website and I think only two have anything published and those two books aren't selling at all. I would search for an agent who has actual sellers under his/her belt.


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

SFWA has a blog titled Writer Beware: The Blog. They have good information on there about standard practices, contracts, lists of scammers, etc. 

Another thing to consider: although it's flattering to be pursued by an agent, it might also be cause for caution. The question (beyond the dubious contract verbiage) is whether this agent will be able to represent you well. In what markets does he/she have experience? What are her contacts? Does she specialize in foreign rights?

Although it is off-putting to be charged for marketing expenses, it would not be uncommon with a small agent with very few authors under his/her belt. Not unethical, just not competitive in the market when other agents have moved past this practice in the late 90s.

Good luck, no matter what you decide.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

C. Rysalis said:


> Something to keep in mind: agents are only supposed to make any money when their author does. If they help you sign with a publisher, they get a cut. They should be motivated to do their best for you for that reason. Because if they don't, they get no cut.
> 
> If the agent gets money without a contract being signed, they already make a profit and might not be very motivated to work hard on your behalf. Besides, there's no way for you to know whether the amount charged actually correlates with the amount of photocopies made etc.


I especially agree with the last point.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> Their agency sounds legit, though.


No it doesnt. Not in the slightest. Any agency that can't pay for sending their own mail isn't a real agency. Sorry, but you'd better forget about this one completely.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Robert A Michael said:


> SFWA has a blog titled Writer Beware: The Blog. They have good information on there about standard practices, contracts, lists of scammers, etc.
> 
> Another thing to consider: although it's flattering to be pursued by an agent, it might also be cause for caution. The question (beyond the dubious contract verbiage) is whether this agent will be able to represent you well. In what markets does he/she have experience? What are her contacts? Does she specialize in foreign rights?
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I'll add those questions about who else they represent, foreign rights, etc. Good stuff.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> No it doesnt. Not in the slightest. Any agency that can't pay for sending their own mail isn't a real agency. Sorry, but you'd better forget about this one completely.


I'll speak with her soon and get to the bottom of that issue. I'm curious more than anything else. I'll report back what I find out.


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## 88149 (Dec 13, 2015)

Agent Janet Reid offers free advice for all aspects of the query process, no strings, straight up fact. She's a terrific gal, very witty, and very experienced. Almost daily she posts a question such as yours and answers in detail. Pose your question just as you began this thread, and I'm sure she'll answer either by email or on the blog.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> I'll speak with her soon and get to the bottom of that issue. I'm curious more than anything else. I'll report back what I find out.


Quit the needless parlay. You don't need to ask any questions or get any answers, which should be obvious from the comments you've been given here. This so-called agent has already identified what she is, front door to a vanity press. Chances are any publisher she signs you with will also require payment up front from you. Run don't walk.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I can find no footprint on Publishers Marketplace, and while there is a listing on QueryTracker, it's very slender, and for the agency in general, not the agent in particular. Your people are based in the UK, so maybe they have a bigger profile over there.

As for charging for stuff, some older agency contracts had this. I can't imagine needing any photocopying expenses in this day and age. Ask them to strike it, at the least.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Quit the needless parlay. You don't need to ask any questions or get any answers, which should be obvious from the comments you've been given here. This so-called agent has already identified what she is, front door to a vanity press. Chances are any publisher she signs you with will also require payment up front from you. Run don't walk.


Let's just say I'll consider this a learning experience. Then I can share that with you guys.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

MonkishScribe said:


> As for charging for stuff, some older agency contracts had this. I can't imagine needing any photocopying expenses in this day and age. Ask them to strike it, at the least.


That's what I was thinking, too. Might just be old-fashioned UK verbiage. No offense to any Brits.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> Let's just say I'll consider this a learning experience. Then I can share that with you guys.


It doesn't hurt to talk. This might be a discussion you want to take to Absolute Write. People here are a little more hostile to trad publishing than over there, so if going that route is what you want, getting some trad route thoughts might not hurt.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

MonkishScribe said:


> It doesn't hurt to talk. This might be a discussion you want to take to Absolute Write. People here are a little more hostile to trad publishing than over there, so if going that route is what you want, getting some trad route thoughts might not hurt.


I've heard good things about going the hybrid route. That's my goal eventually - to partner with a publisher, but retain as many of my rights as possible. I know I'll have to show success self-publishing first. That's why I'm curious what he approach would be, even if just to hear what someone in the industry thinks.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Puddleduck said:


> I think the thing is that if she's a disreputable type (as she seems), then she'll just BS you and come up with what she makes sound like reasonable reasons for those charges. It's hardly as if she's going to admit to being not a real agent and just wanting to get money from you. And there's really no point in talking to BS-ers, other than giving them the opportunity to convince you they're not with their smooth talk and get money from you. Which is, I'm guessing, why people here are advising you cut off communication. We can't really see any good coming from it.


My difficulty with some of the advice in this board is that, if she was just looking to get money from me, I imagine she would ask for fees up front or something shady like that. But asking the author to pay for promotional copies of books - that seems like a long-shot as a profit scheme. How much would they really expect us to cough up for copies of books before it becomes obvious they're milking us?

I would strike that from the contract before signing it. That's why I want to speak with her. If she resists the idea, I'll know something's up.

Again, I'm not getting too excited here because she's a "Literary Agent interested in a poor, struggling indie like myself." More of this is curiosity. I want to learn how to spot the disreputable ones.

It's like when you get an IRS scammer on the phone and you're curious what they want you to do - if only to make sense of how the scam works. Know what I mean?


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Puddleduck said:


> You're right that she doesn't sound like a straight-up scammer. From the sound of things, she's probably a small-time agent trying to get a footing and build her career. But the question you have to ask yourself is: if she's so small that she can't afford basic things like her own copying, how much is she likely able to do for your career?
> 
> Then again, I've read that even bigger agencies are pulling stuff like this because of the tough times in the publishing industry, so it may not be as much a mark of illegitimacy as it may once have been.
> 
> ...


Awesome points! I'll dig deep with her. We have a Skype tomorrow.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

MonkishScribe said:


> People here are a little more hostile to trad publishing than over there, so if going that route is what you want, getting some trad route thoughts might not hurt.


I have lots of experience with and am not hostile toward traditional publishing. And what has been offered the OP is as far from traditional as you can get. He has already made up his mind to proceed with more inquiry, however, and seems to be here looking for validation of that decision. I strongly suggest he look up Yog's Law, which is some of what he will hear about at Absolute Write. And I wish him luck.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Did you google her name? She uploaded a video on YouTube in August about how she quit her job because she wanted to go to school to become a book cover designer. She had a GoFundMe asking for money to pay for school.

Now less than two months later, she's an agent?






You have nothing to lose talking to her, but man, I would not sign with her or that agency. Just be very careful! Sounds like this agency adopted the Author Solutions business model of nickel and diming authors for every single thing.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I have lots of experience with and am not hostile toward traditional publishing. And what has been offered the OP is as far from traditional as you can get. He has already made up his mind to proceed with more inquiry, however, and seems to be here looking for validation of that decision. I strongly suggest he look up Yog's Law, which is some of what he will hear about at Absolute Write. And I wish him luck.


Yog's Law is very interesting, namely that money should flow to the author, not the other way around.

You're right, I've made up my mind to explore what she has to say - and yes, a lot of this comes from wanting the validation from someone who works in an industry that closed their doors in my face all those years I sent out queries.

But if I choose not to speak with her, I'll always wonder what her pitch might have been. I'd rather waste 15 minutes and be better informed, than spend weeks or months wondering if maybe I had closed a door too soon.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Did you google her name? She uploaded a video on YouTube in August about how she quit her job because she wanted to go to school to become a book cover designer. She had a GoFundMe asking for money to pay for school.
> 
> Now less than two months later, she's an agent?
> 
> ...


I did see that video and was confused initially. You make good points, and I'll definitely be careful.

Also, I've compiled a pretty rigorous list of questions for her. Part of me is curious whether she'll answer honestly, evade, or get turned off.

I work in sales (recruiting, specifically) so I'm always interested in hearing people's pitches and reasons why I should jump my ship and climb on theirs.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> Did you google her name? She uploaded a video on YouTube in August about how she quit her job because she wanted to go to school to become a book cover designer. She had a GoFundMe asking for money to pay for school.
> 
> Now less than two months later, she's an agent?


I smell fly-by-night.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Astro said:


> I agree with Al Stevens 100%. This is a scam. Don't even dignify it with a response. You are just leaving yourself open to flattering talk that you are obviously susceptible to. No offense.


You may be right. I'm not offended. I need to hear this stuff.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> I smell fly-by-night.


For tomorrow, are you notified when I respond here? I want to put up a response as to how the conversation went.

Anyone reading this, please flag this to receive updates. I'd love a conversation about what went down.

We're meeting on Skype tomorrow at 9:30am EST. Now I really want to see how it goes, if only to get more feedback from you guys - especially if she promises to draw up a new contract or something unexpected.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> Did you google her name? She uploaded a video on YouTube in August about how she quit her job because she wanted to go to school to become a book cover designer. She had a GoFundMe asking for money to pay for school.
> 
> Now less than two months later, she's an agent?
> 
> ...


It's an entertaining video, but it doesn't give one much confidence, does it? A lot of people get into agenting because it seems fun and some people do make a good living at it. The attrition rate is very high, and it's worse to have a bad agent than no agent.

I wouldn't necessarily advise against hiring a newer agent, but in this case, there are definite warning signs. I'd still suggest asking around a bit at Absolute Write. Someone might know more specifics.


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## Astro (Jul 4, 2017)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> For tomorrow, are you notified when I respond here? I want to put up a response as to how the conversation went.
> 
> Anyone reading this, please flag this to receive updates. I'd love a conversation about what went down.
> 
> We're meeting on Skype tomorrow at 9:30am EST. Now I really want to see how it goes, if only to get more feedback from you guys - especially if she promises to draw up a new contract or something unexpected.


Be sure and ask her the most obvious questions like, how long has she been doing this, what experience she has, why is she charging when others don't , and why she picked you. Also ask about that video as well. What the heck is up with that. When it comes right down to it, we all want the best for you. We are a community and we offer up advice to help each other be as successful as possible. Everyone here wants to be the next hottest author on the best seller list. But there are also people who prey upon that fact. Just be smart and use the brain not the heart.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

She has a whole series of goofy videos out there and comes across as a trivial person. My guess is she's giving this lit agent thing a go, and will give it up in a month or two when it proves to be a really hard way to make a living.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

So I just looked up the company (note I'm a Brit seeing as people were thinking it might be the norm in Britain - yeah, no. I wouldn't pay an agent ANYTHING up front. They're supposed to make their living from selling my work, not buying it from me!).

While I can see a 'team' I cannot find an 'about' page, which would instantly ring alarm bells for me.  How long have they been established? How did the company form? What publishing houses have they worked with?

They have a blog. Over the last year that i can see, there are FOUR posts. 

I looked up their authors.  One has sadly passed away last year - but it seemed he was more of a playwright.  
Another seems to be something to do with films.  
One author, David Zen, has one book which is in KU, so I'm now wondering is this self published? (ETA I know trad books can be in KU but I would have thought that only went to BIG names. End ETA).
Simon Leyland has 3 books; his website only has links to Amazon (although one appears to be published by Bantam Press - although that was a fair few years ago).  There doesn't seem to be anything new since 2014.
Steve Burgess, strangely on his Bio it links to his hypnotherapy site!  He has a few books, but nothing recent since 2011.
Alison Pringle seems to be in the same boat as Simon.
Danny Spring, an actor with a debut novel coming out Loch Strange, yet I can't find anything on this.  His acting work is up there, but nothing i can find on writing.
Alex Spiro is a bit confusing as he is the only one with a link to an author website, which takes me to someone called Alex Hyland. This is again his debut novel, and working with Accent Press (don't know them) but only in paperback (at least that's how the site reads). The book seems to be enrolled in KU though?  Strangely.  I like his site though. But again he seems to have a connection to the world of film and tv.
And finally, Natalie Esther, who has done some good work for charity, but again I can't find anything on her work. Wait, wait, hang on, oh, it's an upcoming memoir.

Going through all that... Yeah, I'd be skeptical as all hell!!!


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

Take the call.  Ask if those charges are upfront or part of the agents percentage when the book sells.  There are agencies that charge for things like this, but it is never up front.  You should never hand money to an agent or publisher, period.  However, these things might be part of their cut when the project sells.  If the project sells, these costs are minimal and perhaps nothing to quibble over, especially since you are not personally paying them money.

However, I'm expecting this person to say they are up front charges.  I took a look at this agency and noticed one specific thing that ties all the agents together- a lack of any sort of experience being an agent.  The founder is the sole person who has worked for an agency, but even he doesn't actually state he was an agent.  These are all people who have made their living doing something else and then suddenly decided to be literature agents.  They are not going to have the publishing contacts that an experienced agent has. They may not be able to do much more with publishers than you can on your own.  Not worth handing someone 15%, in my opinion.

Ask one big question in your meeting.  What publishers have you sold to?  Then look those publishers up and see if they accept unagented submissions.

I could be very wrong about this agency, of course.  I've never worked with them.  I have no secret knowledge.  I'm just seeing some big red flags.


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## TiffanyTurner (Jun 8, 2009)

I looked over the website and checked her out. She looks like a young and new agent hungry for new authors. It couldn't hurt to talk to her. I've met a lot of agents at writing cons, and they need clients to make money. If the only problem with the contract is what is cited above, then maybe they are just using old school 90s contract language. 

Besides, if she hasn't asked you to sign yet, there is no harm in listening to what she has to say. I did have one question that popped up. If you're in the UK, I could see have an agent based there. But if you're in the US, why would you have a UK agent? I know Hugh Howey started by selling his rights in the UK and abroad, and then there was a bidding war in the US for "Wool". So, it might be an advantage to start there. But I was wondering why else you would have a UK based agent. Just a thought to add to your question list.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

evdarcy said:


> So I just looked up the company (note I'm a Brit seeing as people were thinking it might be the norm in Britain - yeah, no. I wouldn't pay an agent ANYTHING up front. They're supposed to make their living from selling my work, not buying it from me!).
> 
> While I can see a 'team' I cannot find an 'about' page, which would instantly ring alarm bells for me. How long have they been established? How did the company form? What publishing houses have they worked with?
> 
> ...


Thank you for digging into this. I always saw similar red flags when I looked up their authors. I'm so glad I posted here. I will definitely be careful tomorrow.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

JulianneQJohnson said:


> Ask one big question in your meeting. What publishers have you sold to? Then look those publishers up and see if they accept unagented submissions.


Added this to my list of questions. Very big thank you!


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

TiffanyTurner said:


> I looked over the website and checked her out. She looks like a young and new agent hungry for new authors. It couldn't hurt to talk to her. I've met a lot of agents at writing cons, and they need clients to make money. If the only problem with the contract is what is cited above, then maybe they are just using old school 90s contract language.
> 
> Besides, if she hasn't asked you to sign yet, there is no harm in listening to what she has to say. I did have one question that popped up. If you're in the UK, I could see have an agent based there. But if you're in the US, why would you have a UK agent? I know Hugh Howey started by selling his rights in the UK and abroad, and then there was a bidding war in the US for "Wool". So, it might be an advantage to start there. But I was wondering why else you would have a UK based agent. Just a thought to add to your question list.


I'm not married to the idea of a UK agent, but I haven't heard back from the US ones I queried. Plus, with technology being what it is, I assume a good foreign agent would have contacts in the US, or at least the ability to make those contacts.

That's definitely a question I'll be asking her (who her contacts are in the US, and her strategy for working with American editors.)

But it's still a good point which I've been mulling over. Would much prefer an agent familiar with the US market.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Puddleduck said:


> That's good advice, but I personally wouldn't bother even going that far. The only point to get an agent, IMO, is to get published by one of the big 5 (or for only foreign rights). Familiarize yourself with who the big 5 and all their imprints are, and if the agent names publishers that aren't on that list, I'd ignore those as being credits at all. But that's me.


That's a good strategy. I'll definitely ask her if she's ever worked with these kinds of imprints. Mostly, I'm curious why she thinks my book (already self-published, with the sequel coming out next week) is something she could sell. I want to know what she could possibly be thinking. I mean - why me? I'm not a best-selling indie by any means.

Yes, yes, I'm seeking validation. But I'm also just so damn curious.


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## TiffanyTurner (Jun 8, 2009)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> That's a good strategy. I'll definitely ask her if she's ever worked with these kinds of imprints. Mostly, I'm curious why she thinks my book (already self-published, with the sequel coming out next week) is something she could sell. I want to know what she could possibly be thinking. I mean - why me? I'm not a best-selling indie by any means.
> 
> Yes, yes, I'm seeking validation. But I'm also just so damn curious.


You know, I'd be interested in why she is going after a self-pub book. I talked to a Hollywood agent at a writing con and he told me to unpublish all of my books since the studios were NOT interested in self-published books. I mean if the other books are already in KU and other self-pubb'ed books, are they trying to sell to traditional pubs for you? Traditionals, all the editors I've talked to in small presses and one Big 5 editor, want unpublished works. They don't want the self-pubs until it's proven itself with decent numbers. I'm not sure what you're numbers are, but from your sales rank, it seems more of a mid-list kind of self-pubber, which is good. Just not sure why an agent would want that.

So, something else to ask. What can they do that you aren't doing for yourself as a self-pubbed author?

Plus, I have talked to an agent that will work with people that have self-published, but again, she wants original stuff. Though she was open to a Wattpad story that I'm reworking. She sells to Amazon imprints. A lot of agents don't right now, since I guess the Zon is like the traditional publishing black sheep right now. But maybe, they are thinking with new avenues for self-pubbers.

Hope she's full of cool ideas for your work. Interested to see what they plan for you. ;-)


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## Pacman (Dec 18, 2016)

Al Stevens said:


> I have lots of experience with and am not hostile toward traditional publishing. And what has been offered the OP is as far from traditional as you can get. He has already made up his mind to proceed with more inquiry, however, and seems to be here looking for validation of that decision. I strongly suggest he look up Yog's Law, which is some of what he will hear about at Absolute Write. And I wish him luck.


ditto - this thread reminds me of the heaven Vs hell recruitment joke:

Tragically, Sally Mason, an HR manager was hit and killed by a 4×4 when she crossed the road while talking on her mobile.

As her soul arrived at the Pearly Gates, St. Peter himself was on hand to greet her.

"Welcome to Heaven," said St. Peter. "Before you get settled in though, as with everyone, we'd like to give you the opportunity to experience both heaven and hell. So what we're going to do is let you have a day in each before you decide where you wish to spend eternity."

"Fair enough, although I'm sure I want to be in heaven", said Sally.

"But you've never been to hell so how would you possibly know?" With that Ms Mason found herself on a seemingly endless escalator descending to Hell.

Eventually she arrived and the HR manager found herself stepping onto a beach of fine white sand, with deep blue water lapping at her feet and a bar with gorgeous waiters serving refreshing cocktails.

Just beyond that she could see a luxury hotel and friendly faces welcoming her, many of them people she knew from her life as an HR consultant. They sat around, reminisced, laughed, swam and then as the bright golden sun disappeared below the horizon they all went into the hotel for an amazing meal.

She even met Satan who was also very friendly, and not at all like the evil devil she had been led to believe he was. The evening was fabulous with more drink, jokes and dancing.

Heaven or hell?

Sally had a wonderful time in hell but all to quickly her visit came to an end and she was whisked onto the escalator to sample heaven. Everybody smiled and waved good-bye as she disappeared into the clouds.

The escalator went up for what seemed like an age but eventually she arrived at heaven where St Peter was once again there to greet her.

"OK, now it's time to spend 24 hours in Heaven" he said. Sally took her place among the clouds. Everyone was sitting around, chatting quietly, playing lutes and harps, and Sally joined in. People were pleasant but it was nothing like as much fun as hell.

In fact the 24 hours seemed interminable but eventually it all came to an end and St. Peter came see her. "So," he said, "you've experienced heaven and hell - where would you like to spend the rest of eternity?"

Without hesitating Sally replied, "Hell - no question. I can't believe I'm saying this because before I arrived I would have stayed in heaven without even visiting hell, but now that I've seen it I know that's much more my kind of place. Heaven is fine, but I think I'm better suited to spending the rest of eternity in hell."

St. Peter nodded and escorted her back to the escalator which swept her back down, eventually, to hell, but when she arrived it was very different. Sally found herself standing in a hot, dry, putrid smelling wilderness. For as far as she could see all around was detritus, organic waste, and the stench of death.

All her friends, old and new were dressed in filthy rags and were picking up scraps of rancid food to eat. Satan came up to her again and welcomed her.

"I don't understand," sobbed Sally. "When I came yesterday it was fabulous food and drink, beautiful sun drenched sandy beaches and clear blue sea. Now all there is is a wasteland of putrid waste and everyone is scratching around for food."

The Devil looked at her and smiled, "that's because yesterday we were recruiting, now you're on the staff."


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## NoLongerHere (Apr 26, 2010)

Bye


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## Astro (Jul 4, 2017)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> That's a good strategy. I'll definitely ask her if she's ever worked with these kinds of imprints. Mostly, I'm curious why she thinks my book (already self-published, with the sequel coming out next week) is something she could sell. I want to know what she could possibly be thinking. I mean - why me? I'm not a best-selling indie by any means.
> 
> Yes, yes, I'm seeking validation. But I'm also just so damn curious.


Everyone is telling you to stay away. The people on here have decades of experience. Listen to them. Stay away from this.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## NoLongerHere (Apr 26, 2010)

Bye


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Puddleduck said:


> "in my current bookshop"?
> 
> What the...?
> 
> Is agenting some side gig she has going on top of being a low-paid bookstore employee?


A lot of agents start part time, because there's a long, looong time before they can earn a good living from it. So it's isn't uncommon to find the junior agents in a typical NY agency working as bar tenders, nurse's aides, freelance editors, etc. This isn't necessarily a red flag.

Not that I don't see other red flags, but this one isn't necessarily one. It only means she's new.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

They don't all work the same, but generally, the agency gets 15%, of which the agent gets a split, depending on her seniority with the agency, how independently she works, etc. So if you start off, you have zero income. You sign a few people, you get a few small contracts, etc.

I have an agenting background. These are my actual numbers from my first five years:

1,500
1,750
22,000
28,000
76,000

It was year five when I finally made something like a real living. I was obviously supplementing with other work while I built up clients, and the first two years were especially discouraging.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

One thing about agenting is that work is not necessarily scalable, so when I was making less, I was also working less. Most of your work in the early going is sifting through queries, which doesn't take a huge amount of time. I was learning a lot about writing and enjoying the work at the time, and only needed to put in part time hours. After a couple of years, I had some cool speaking opportunities (everyone wants agents at their con), and things started to move forward. I could see money coming down the pipeline, even if it wasn't there yet.

But no, it isn't easy. And like anything in writing, there's a lottery aspect. Some people make a lot, and others very little at all. You don't have to do very many 1M contracts to make a great living, but if you're getting a 70% split of 15%, you have to do an impossible number of 10K deals to get the same.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Puddleduck said:


> I guess it's no wonder people try it out and then leave. And no wonder those that are working are doing more and more things to get whatever money they can out of the authors themselves, especially when it sounds like publishers are buying fewer and fewer books.


I agree with the first sentence. It's hard to get a job at an agency, and then once they do, most don't make it. But the second part isn't really accurate. Reputable agencies only make their money from selling author books, nothing else. Also, the publishing industry seems to have stabilized compared to ~2012. If you have a subscription to Publisher's Marketplace, you can see tons of six figure deals coming out of Frankfurt this week, and Publisher's Weekly reported four different million+ deals. There's still money in the industry, and publishers are willing to pay well for the right project.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2017)

I agree with MonkeyScribe. It could be that they're new and small. 
There are some good aspects to a small agency. They're hungry and you won't get ignored or lost in the shuffle. The bad thing is that they are still developing their contacts. The list of editors they have in their directory may be short. You see, an agent really has only one job - get your manuscript in front of editors. If they do that, they've done what you need them to do. The rest is up to your book. I would suggest having some agented writers look over your contract. Things to watch is subsidiary rights clauses that lay claim to rights they didn't sell should to leave the agency. Rights to self-published work - they should not have their hand out for your indie stuff. And it should be clear that you are free to fire them at any time. They will still get paid for deals they made for you, but nothing new after you leave.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> I agree with MonkeyScribe. It could be that they're new and small.
> There are some good aspects to a small agency. They're hungry and you won't get ignored or lost in the shuffle. The bad thing is that they are still developing their contacts. The list of editors they have in their directory may be short. You see, an agent really has only one job - get your manuscript in front of editors. If they do that, they've done what you need them to do. The rest is up to your book. I would suggest having some agented writers look over your contract. Things to watch is subsidiary rights clauses that lay claim to rights they didn't sell should to leave the agency. Rights to self-published work - they should not have their hand out for your indie stuff. And it should be clear that you are free to fire them at any time. They will still get paid for deals they made for you, but nothing new after you leave.


Yes, especially yes on the making it clear about your indie stuff. Speaking personally, I never had a hard time getting editors to read even when I was a new agent. It is as much about writing a good pitch as knowing people. Not that knowing people hurts. At all.

My biggest concern in this case is that after watching her videos and knowing what I know about the industry, I'd say there's only 1 in 3 chance she's still doing this in a year. She's not only new, she's very new, plus she's young and clearly interested in doing design stuff, and seems kind of flighty in her videos.


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## Miranda Honfleur (Oct 12, 2015)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> My difficulty with some of the advice in this board is that, if she was just looking to get money from me, I imagine she would ask for fees up front or something shady like that. But asking the author to pay for promotional copies of books - that seems like a long-shot as a profit scheme.


This reminded me of something I read on PG... might be worth a read: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/opinion/book-publishing-amazon-sales.html

In particular:


> And finally, a number of review copies are sent out free to media outlets. They are not supposed to be sold. Some book sellers apparently have standing arrangements with magazine conglomerates and television networks to bulk purchase all the review copies they receive, which they could presumably then sell on Amazon. While this isn't strictly illegal, it is unethical - and terribly unfair to authors and publishers.


Apparently some booksellers on Amazon could be making money by selling promotional copies... Something like "I shall be entitled to charge you for the following concerning works written by you: Books and proofs bought by the agency for promotional purposes and for submission to publishers abroad" would ring alarm bells. Who knows how many copies can be "bought by the agency for promotional purposes" and charged to the author?

And if an agency can't put their money where their mouth is concerning the authors they sign, that's telling.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Okay, so I just had my Skype session with Cinzi. I'm going to post a (lengthy) description of how it went, and what I've decided (not signing, though I'm not closing the door just yet). I'm posting this to get feedback from all of you, and also in hopes of enlightening anyone who was curious about what was going on in my situation.

THE PAY FOR PROMOTIONAL MATERIALS CLAUSE

We talked about the contract's language in regards to having me pay for promotional copies. I'm having that stricken from the contract before I even consider it. But I understand now what it was trying to say. In the event of promotions where actual paperback copies of my books are sent, I would have had to pay for them. But the agency would not have forced me to utilize these promotional methods, nor would they have depended on me paying for manuscripts or paperback to be sent to editors. All editorial submissions would be via email. The reason for that wording is, if I had decided to attend any events to meet editors and pitch my work (events suggested by my agent, or set up by my agent) I would have had to provide the physical paperback copies of my book. HOWEVER, the agency would merely suggest these kinds of event. It would have been up to me if I wanted to, say, set up a table with 20 copies at a book expo, or ComicCon, or whatever. I would not be contractually obliged to attend these events as part of the deal, and they would not be contractually obliged to pay for them.

This isn't an issue as I don't attend those kinds of events. Also, Cinzia would not use these kinds of events to show my paperback to agents. She would use them to network, and then follow up with editors who want to see the book. Because I told her I wasn't going to pay for any copies (unless I decided, of my own will, to attend these events, etc.) she assured me that any promotional material or manuscripts would simply be emailed (email's free!)

HER EDITORIAL CONTACTS AND PREVIOUS SUCCESSES

This part of the conversation did not surprise me. She's new at her job, has been doing it for 3 months, and yes, she supports herself with other work. She is still building her list of contacts at publishing houses and devotes her day to her job (works other job at night). I didn't expect her to wow me with a list of editors she keeps in her pocket.

Yes, I would love a US agent who has contacts at all Big 5 publishing houses, because then maybe I could use a hybrid (indie/trad pub) approach to maximize my reach and receive investments in things I can't always afford, like having multiple editors and cutting-edge graphic designers develop my fantasy series.

But I don't expect to get an agent like that, nor am I particularly deadset on having an agent at all. I'm doing OK by myself, and I'd be happy continuing to learn and grow as an indie author. The idea of an agent is simply to SUPPLEMENT and extend my reach. An example is audiobooks. I've never been interested in self-publishing the audiobook versions to my books, but if an agent wanted to sell those rights, keep 15%, and I'd be working with a professional outfit to get this done, I would love that.

If I were to ever sign with a newbie agent, it would be just for that reason - not in hope that my career would be completely transformed, but that certain weakness of mine would be supplements, and certain opportunities I hadn't consider would open up.

SELLING TO BRITISH VS AMERICAN PUBLISHERS

She made sure I understood that any publishing house she targets would also have either an American imprint or a connection with American publishing houses. I would never sign with a British publishing company that would only allow me to sell my work in the UK, without an American presence in the market. 

FINAL SAY ON CONTRACTS

I would have final say on any contracts offer by publishing houses, scouted by my agent.

TERMINATION OF AGENCY CONTRACT

All I would have to do to terminate my agreement is give written notice 30 days out. Then I'd be right back where I am now, doing it all myself. That sounds OK to me.

WORKING TOGETHER LONG-TERM

Some of you out there have mention that she'll probably only be doing this for a year or two, because she's young and has other interested, like school and graphic design. I'm fine with that. It just means I'll be back on my own. I'm not worried about wasted time when I could have been querying other agents, because I haven't queries agents in 4+ years. The only reason I reached out to Cinzia is because I got bored one day and used my corporate LinkedIn account to send a couple hundred inmails to agents, just to see what they'd day.

Again, validation and curiosity. I admit it. But at least I'm having this conversation, posting on this forum, and receiving feedback and learning something, right? So it wasn't as much of a waste of time as some of you might think.

SO AM I BEING SCAMMED?

I haven't signed anything nor have I been asked to pay for anything or give a credit card number, so technically no. She is going to amend the contract, remove the part about paying for promotional materials, and include some extra language stating that I would retain my copyright and all ownership (this was in there before, but I thought the language was vague.)

If this is a scam because they just want authors to buy promotional copies so they can re-sell them, then it's the worst scam I've ever heard of. Also, I wouldn't have been required to send HER the promotional copies or any money. That simply meant I would send copies of my paperbacks as necessary for promotional purposes, which I don't intend to do. Emailed manuscript to editors should suffice as far as getting attention from publishing houses.

SO AM I GOING TO SIGN?

Not sure yet. What do you think? I see no way of getting cornered or scammed. If she goes dark on me, I can always put in my written notice and be out of the contract in 30 days.

SO WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?

I'm having her draw up a "game plan" for the first 90 days. This will include a list of editorial targets, a plan for submitting, etc. She wants to take some time to read through my entire book and provide editorial comments (for free, which is pretty cool) before we start submitting, so the "90-day game plan" would officially start once the book is ready. This will hopefully show me what kind of reach she believes she has, and what we can expect as far as attempts to get editors on board who could potentially offer *interesting* contracts for me to review (another curiosity thing of mine; I'd like to see what these boilerplate contracts entail, the advances - if any - etc.) 

DO I THINK ANYTHING MAGICAL IS GOING TO HAPPEN ONCE SHE STARTS QUERYING EDITORS.

No. My fantasy series is self-published, the books are not bestsellers (yet - the sequel comes out tomorrow, and I plan to write 6 more), and I have no business case to make to any editor as to why my book with be the next Harry Potter.

But that also means I have nothing to lose.

As long as I keep writing, publishing, and marketing (I've just started using AMS because I no longer live under a rock, apparently) then I'm sure I'll be fine.

IF I SIGN with this agent, or any other agent, it will be simply to get a taste of what else might be out there, to explore how the process works (because I'm curious about it), and to see what a young, hungry agent can be capable of.

Please let me know your thoughts.

I won't respond to any comments targeting my narcissism or accusing this agent of being a scammer, because I really don't believe that's the case (unless you really have a really compelling argument with case studies to back it up).

I have another call scheduled with her after she sends me the contract, and even then I will probably take weeks to decide, and will continuously post here.

Thank you.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Thanks for the update! This is very interesting to see.

This was already suggested, but make sure to let an expert (an actual expert, not someone who studied law for two semesters) evaluate the final version of the contract. See if there are any pitfalls and loopholes you might not be aware of, and if the option to break free at any time doesn't come with hidden caveats.


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## Nicholas Andrews (Sep 8, 2011)

On a somewhat unrelated note, who names their company the Tin-Can Telephone Agency? Could you make yourself sound any more podunk and small-time?


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Nicholas Andrews said:


> On a somewhat unrelated note, who names their company the Tin-Can Telephone Agency? Could you make yourself sound any more podunk and small-time?


That's a little harsh.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Nicholas Andrews said:


> On a somewhat unrelated note, who names their company the Tin-Can Telephone Agency? Could you make yourself sound any more podunk and small-time?


Though I agree the "telephone" part throws me off...maybe its a reference to British children's story?

I mean, who names the school in their fantasy series "Hogwarts"?


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

This whole thread just reminds me of the episode of Peep Show where Mark gets a publisher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg6j9mlw7Wotube]

Your posts come across as if (and some even state) you have a pretty driving need for validation. I think everyone goes through this from time to time, but making decisions with that need as overhead isn't the best idea. And I suspect this isn't going to feed the beast. Lastly, if she crashes and burns (even with the best of intentions--just watching her videos, I don't know that I'd want her to represent me to publishers) is it possible your reputation will get dragged down as well?

Anyway, best of luck, whatever you decide.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Folks, feel free to give your take on this agent's contract language and public self-presentation, as well as her answers to Richard's questions, but no more attempts at psychoanalysis, please. That is really not cool.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Folks, feel free to give your take on this agent's contract language and public self-presentation, as well as her answers to Richard's questions, but no more attempts at psychoanalysis, please. That is really not cool.


That was me, I apologize!


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

My concern isn't that a green agent has no contacts to publishing, it's that the entire agency seems to not have any contacts in publishing.  Generally, a new agency is founded by members who have worked in established agencies.  They take their contacts with them when they leave.  In this case, all the agents are trying to build contacts.  As a previous poster noted, they have no history of decent sales to any publisher.

Sure, they can talk a good game.  But I see nothing here to suggest they can give a writer any single thing the writer could not do on their own.  Not one thing.  This is an agency I would wait a few years and see if they are still around before I signed anything.  Sure, you can leave them with 30 days notice, but you sign with a publisher that looks good on paper but ends up dropping the ball, and you will have a fight to get your rights back. 

Nothing the agent said in your talk makes me feel that this agency is a good prospect.  And that paperback thing does not explain that they want money for photocopying and postage.  As others have said, it's like they found their grandfather's agency contract and said "Let's do this!"  You know, because they are too green to know what they are doing.

For me it would be a pass.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

martysouth said:


> She hasn't read your book? Does this not make you wonder even a little? She's willing to represent an author whose work she has not even read.
> She wants to edit your book, but she isn't an editor. She's supposed to be an agent. (And there are numerous typos on the website. I'm not talking American/British differences but genuine typos--spaces before periods, repeated words like "and and"--the stuff an editor, which she's apparently holding herself out to be, would catch; the stuff a proofreader, which they ought to have hired, would have caught.)
> What will this 90-day plan actually show you--that she can compile a list of impressive houses and editors? That doesn't mean she can get them to look at what she's got to offer.
> Look, if you want to read book contracts, read book contracts--but not at the expense of your career (_See_ below).
> ...


Very good points. I'm not sure if she's read the entire book, but she mentioned a few details that show me she at least ready the first 25%. Still...you're right.

Here's what I'm thinking though: I'm not pursuing agents in general, so wouldn't have someone - even someone green - out there making connections on my behalf potentially benefit me?

The contract doesn't bind me in any way, unless we actually pursue and sign a publishing deal. I can cancel it at any time with 30 days' notice.

Why not give her a shot and see what she can do?

What do I have to lose?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

WordSaladTongs said:


> That was me, I apologize!


I was mainly referring to some earlier posts, WST. I saw you were picking up language Richard used just above in reaction to those earlier posts.


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## 91831 (Jul 18, 2016)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> Why not give her a shot and see what she can do?
> 
> What do I have to lose?


It seems you've already made up your mind.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

evdarcy said:


> It seems you've already made up your mind.


Not necessarily. I'm waiting to see the revised contract and have another conversation.

I think a little differently about this stuff because of what I do for work. I'm a recruiter, so people ask me to represent them during job searches. I get them interviews with clients, and if things go well, they can accept an offer.

If I stink at my job, they can walk away and do it themselves. Or find another recruiter (or work with 3 at once).

Not everyone who works with me gets a job - rarely do they get a dream job.

But a few times a month - and that's a small number considering the hundreds of people I speak with in any given month - I match someone with a job that they can be excited about and proud of.

I think of an agent in the same way. IF (and it's still a big IF) I decide to sign with her, and she hooks me up with something great, then it was worth it.

If she doesn't, or this doesn't work out, I've lost nothing. If anything, I've gained a bit of knowledge about the process.

Go ahead and tell me your thoughts - but from this perspective, if possible - because no one has yet convinced me that I have anything to lose here except some of my time.


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## NotMyRealName (Aug 18, 2014)

I do not accept nor do I consent to KBoards/VerticalScope's Terms of Service which have been updated without notice or the opportunity to opt out.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I do not accept the Terms of Service which were instituted without notification. I do not consent to VerticalScope reproducing content I posted on this forum in any newsletter, website, or another forum. I've requested account deletion; however, the owners of this forum REFUSE to delete my content. Further, I repudiate any association with ads that are sexist, racist, and demeaning to women which are now appearing on this site.


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## KeithWardFiction (Jul 26, 2016)

> I'm having her draw up a "game plan" for the first 90 days. This will include a list of editorial targets, a plan for submitting, etc. She wants to take some time to read through my entire book and provide editorial comments (for free, which is pretty cool) before we start submitting,


-- Given her newness at the game and complete lack of background in the industry, you should ask yourself what value there is in her reading the book and providing editorial comments. How could you trust her judgment in this area? What *reason* would you have for trusting her judgment? I wouldn't trust those editorial insights/comments in any way; it's one thing to get beta feedback from readers, another to talk to an agent who likely wouldn't know what publishers are seeking.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

One more piece of advice, which I toss in not expecting to influence you but to let other writers know about this resource.

http://www.victoriastrauss.com/writer-beware/

Victoria has in the past reviewed contracts I've been offered and given her professional opinion. She has always been helpful and her Writer Beware blog is essential for anyone considering a publishing contract. I doubt that the OP here will avail himself of her advice because it's going to be what he's already heard here. But we all should know Victoria.

One thing about these latest comments that concerns me. When an author acquires review copies of a published work to use in promotional activities, who pays for them is usually between the author and the publisher. I don't know why an agent would provide for it in a contract. This is just another example of this novice agent's inexperience and ignorance.

Or it might hint at an undisclosed association between the agent and a particular publishing house, which is clearly a conflict of interests.

What have you got to lose? Plenty if you sign. And by continuing that dialogue despite the advice of your more experienced colleagues, you have left that door open.

And how can you lose plenty?

An agent's job includes negotiating publishing contract terms in the best interests of the author, her client. Good intentions notwithstanding, and based on what she's said about herself and others have noticed, this would-be agent evinces a total absence of knowledge of such matters. How is she going to negotiate that of which she has little or no understanding?


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

MegCooper said:


> Be very sure of the contract language with that. If she shopped your book around to the major houses, it's probable that they will not have made a decision within 30 days. If one of the houses express interest in signing you after she has stopped doing new work for you, because she was the mediator to get you access to the house in the first place you may still be required to use her as the agent for the book.


Yup, that would be the case according to the contract. I would definitely be careful with this.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> One more piece of advice, which I toss in not expecting to influence you but to let other writers know about this resource.
> 
> http://www.victoriastrauss.com/writer-beware/
> 
> ...


Very good points, especially the last paragraph.

I haven't made up my mind, as others keep saying. I won't until I've gathered enough information, which is why this is so valuable.

Thanks to all of you for your advice!


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## wittyblather (Feb 29, 2016)

You're obviously free to do what you want, but I would have backed out the second the agent implied she hadn't read the whole book yet. That wreaks of desperation for clients, that she can't even read their products before offering to sign them.

Even if she has the best intentions, there would be too many red flags in this for me to continue.


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## Astro (Jul 4, 2017)

WordSaladTongs said:


> Your posts come across as if (and some even state) you have a pretty driving need for validation. I think everyone goes through this from time to time, but making decisions with that need as overhead isn't the best idea. And I suspect this isn't going to feed the beast. Lastly, if she crashes and burns (even with the best of intentions--just watching her videos, I don't know that I'd want her to represent me to publishers) is it possible your reputation will get dragged down as well?
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


My friend, drop this while you still can. Don't let this turn out to be a teachable moment.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I had thought the agent contacted him out of the blue - not after a mass mailing via LinkedIn.


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## anikad (Sep 19, 2017)

With the exception of Cassian Hall, who seems to have done something at DHH Literary, none of the others are even remotely qualified to act as agents. The don't have the experience or the links. Cassian seems to have set up North Literary Agency according to this: https://www.agenthunter.co.uk/literary-agent/cassian-hall.html and now we have Tin Can Telephone Agency. http://tctliteraryagency.com/the-team/ The majority of the agents haven't even done an internship a publishing house literary agency, or acted as readers at the very least. I think one of the most curious of the team is Clare - the freelance bibliotherapist, who once worked for bloomsbury managing events and because she met a lot of writers and agents she decided she wanted to be an agent.

This is just the most bizarre thing. If you want an agent why would you start at the bottom with a new agent with limited to no experience based in the middle of nowhere in publishing terms? In the UK, the bulk of the publishing houses have their offices in London. I know we have skype and telephones etc but if you're not based in London you're going to be a bit out of the loop I would have thought. You're not going to be in the circle lunching and eventing and whatever else those folks get up to. Start with the top agents who have proven success selling your genre and work your way down.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> THE PAY FOR PROMOTIONAL MATERIALS CLAUSE
> 
> We talked about the contract's language in regards to having me pay for promotional copies. I'm having that stricken from the contract before I even consider it. But I understand now what it was trying to say. In the event of promotions where actual paperback copies of my books are sent, I would have had to pay for them. But the agency would not have forced me to utilize these promotional methods, nor would they have depended on me paying for manuscripts or paperback to be sent to editors. All editorial submissions would be via email. The reason for that wording is, if I had decided to attend any events to meet editors and pitch my work (events suggested by my agent, or set up by my agent) I would have had to provide the physical paperback copies of my book. HOWEVER, the agency would merely suggest these kinds of event. It would have been up to me if I wanted to, say, set up a table with 20 copies at a book expo, or ComicCon, or whatever. I would not be contractually obliged to attend these events as part of the deal, and they would not be contractually obliged to pay for them.
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily think she is trying to scam you, I just wonder if she actually understands the role of an agent and the role of a publisher. I'm a hybrid author and a small press publisher.

Agents have very little to do with promotional appearances or marketing a specific book - that's on you and the publisher. They may lobby the publisher for more promo on your behalf, but they aren't going to be out there booking you at Comic Con. That's not what a literary agent does. That's a different kind of agent, the kind that actors have. They aren't the same thing.

For most of the books that she should be shopping for you, a paperback copy won't exist when she's shopping it. It'll be a manuscript, or just a digital file. The idea of sending paperbacks to a publisher is silly. Even when I talk to self-published authors about reissuing their series (and we've done a couple, but it's not what we really do), I tell them to send me the .mobi file or Word doc. And no, you don't take paperback copies of your book to pitch sessions or lit festivals. You might take a small sample chapter, but typically you'll sit across from the editor and talk about the book - pitch it. Nobody wants to lug a bunch of paper on a plane. That's why you learn how to make an elevator pitch and talk to people. That whole concept is nonsense.

The termination clause - yeah, you can fire her, but she will get her cut of anything she sells of yours until doomsday. Getting out of an agent relationship is much more complex than just sending a letter and walking away.

I would respond to her with a couple of questions - What have you sold? Who did you sell it to?

I think those answers will be where the rubber meets the road. I wouldn't sign with her at this time, because it sounds like she has a very tenuous understanding of the author/publisher/agent relationship, and that's not where you want to be. If you are interested in a hybrid approach, I would suggest finding a reputable small press that works in your genre, building a relationship with them, and selling one or two properties to them. That way you have a new revenue stream, and you can see if you like working with a publisher, and if you like working with that publisher. It's a lot easier to walk away from a publisher than an agent. One is invested in an intellectual property, while the other is invested in your entire career.

There's my $.02.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm really glad you are keeping us updated on this. I really think she's just a green agent, starting out, trying to acquire some clients. I think listening to her 90 day plan and what she can do for you is a smart choice. And in the end, if she does nothing for you, in say like a year, you can also drop her as an agent. 

But I just wanted to clarify which book she was interested in. It's the second in a series that your first book is already self-published, right?
From what I can tell, that's a hard sell to publishers, unless it's really good. You'd have to unpublish the first book, and not publish the second book until she sells it. I mean, it could work. Publishing and writing is a gamble after all.

Good luck, and keep us all updated. It's great learning from your writing journey.


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## MattHaggis (May 1, 2017)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> - because no one has yet convinced me that I have anything to lose here except some of my time.


Then you haven't been listening. I'll break it down for you: You've already lost a lot of time on this thread. You should also have an IP attorney review any contract -- that's $300+. You've said you can terminate at any time after 30 days, but without seeing the contract that means nothing -- if there is a perpetual agency clause you're signing IP to the agent FOREVER. Once a publisher is pitched a work they're unlikely to accept another pitch for the same work, so if your agent's pitch is terrible then you've lost out. There are many other issues here, but as others have said it sounds like you just want validation. Good luck.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> I'm inclined to agree, though at least she isn't charging for a fee for her general surface.
> 
> Anyone know if this is standard practice? Maybe it is in the UK?


No, it isn't here in the UK either. Agents don't charge; publishers don't charge. Agents take a commission on sales, publishers give you an advance and give you about 10% of sales. It might sound like southern snobbery, but I would expect a successful agent to either be in London or New York.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

The fact that she hasn't actually read the book would mean a quick "no" from me.

Ask yourself - if you were a new agent and wanted to establish yourself, would _you_ attempt to sign an author when you hadn't actually read their work?

Good agents make money when their clients make money. If she's offering to sign you without having read the book, then... well, if it's not a scam, then the best case scenario is she's incompetent. Not the sort of person I'd want going out to bat for me.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

What I'm thinking is this agent is looking to get a few clients quickly so that she can then show on her website that she represents those authors, thereby establishing the appearance of legitimacy. I'm not saying she's trying to scam, just that she's in a hurry to be an agent and she's not likely to get submissions from other authors if she doesn't even have a list of people she's representing.

About four years ago my editor put me in contact with someone starting a new publishing house--only this guy had bucketloads of experience to the tune of being a bigwig in one of the largest agencies prior to leaving to do his own thing. Anyway, I spoke to him on the phone and he was very nice and wanted the rights to all of my books out at the time plus the one I was working on, so a total of five books. Then I received the contract from his partner. It was actually a decent contract (limited rights, I already had books in audio, so I wanted to keep that right for the rest and got it) It was also for 7 years, not lifetime. But the offer was extremely low. I think it was like $250 for each already published book, and $750 for the one in the works. At the time, I was earning about $2,000/month from those four so I turned down the contract. Later, I figured out that what they really were looking to do was just fill their 'warehouse' so to speak with a bunch of titles. Keep in mind this is a completely legit publisher and they are still around and doing well from what I can see, but they didn't care about my books. To them, I would just be filling a slot to make them look like a bigger publisher right out of the gate.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> Why not give her a shot and see what she can do?
> 
> What do I have to lose?


*Headdesk*

Dude. She hasn't even read your book. That's a mega-sign of a shady, incompetent agent.

Don't make foolish decisions because you're needy and desperate for validation. I've seen others make the exact same rationale you're making right now, and it never goes well.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

There is really only one thing you need to know. Can she get your work in front of an editor? Because that's all an agent really does. Here's what I would do. Give her a test run. She if she can get your book in the hands of a few Big 5 editors. Allow 3 months for her to make it happen. You won't get an answer in that time as far as acceptance or rejection. But she should be able to get them to put it in their "to read" pile at least. If nothing happens, move on.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

MaryMcDonald said:


> What I'm thinking is this agent is looking to get a few clients quickly so that she can then show on her website that she represents those authors, thereby establishing the appearance of legitimacy. I'm not saying she's trying to scam, just that she's in a hurry to be an agent and she's not likely to get submissions from other authors if she doesn't even have a list of people she's representing.
> 
> About four years ago my editor put me in contact with someone starting a new publishing house--only this guy had bucketloads of experience to the tune of being a bigwig in one of the largest agencies prior to leaving to do his own thing. Anyway, I spoke to him on the phone and he was very nice and wanted the rights to all of my books out at the time plus the one I was working on, so a total of five books. Then I received the contract from his partner. It was actually a decent contract (limited rights, I already had books in audio, so I wanted to keep that right for the rest and got it) It was also for 7 years, not lifetime. But the offer was extremely low. I think it was like $250 for each already published book, and $750 for the one in the works. At the time, I was earning about $2,000/month from those four so I turned down the contract. Later, I figured out that what they really were looking to do was just fill their 'warehouse' so to speak with a bunch of titles. Keep in mind this is a completely legit publisher and they are still around and doing well from what I can see, but they didn't care about my books. To them, I would just be filling a slot to make them look like a bigger publisher right out of the gate.


That's a sneaky way of buying legitimacy. Then prospects would go to their website see you there go check out your sales and would attribute that to them when it was all you. Sneaky. Can't even trust what you see. Best thing to do is to contact the author directly for feedback.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattHaggis (May 1, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> There is really only one thing you need to know. Can she get your work in front of an editor? Because that's all an agent really does. Here's what I would do. Give her a test run. She if she can get your book in the hands of a few Big 5 editors. Allow 3 months for her to make it happen. You won't get an answer in that time as far as acceptance or rejection. But she should be able to get them to put it in their "to read" pile at least. If nothing happens, move on.


I'll second this but also add: Don't sign a contract. Give the agent 3 months and see what they come up with. If no deal(s) then you part ways, if there's a deal you'll accept then you can sign an agency agreement, but only in that scenario.


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## JulianneQJohnson (Nov 12, 2016)

RichardDenoncourt said:


> Why not give her a shot and see what she can do?
> 
> What do I have to lose?


Maybe nothing, since this is an already published book. Say it wasn't. Say it was a never before published book. Agent, who doesn't quite know what they are doing and has little to no contacts at publishers, emails your project far and wide to every publisher anyone has ever heard of, but doesn't get any action because she has not built trusting relationships at these publishers. Then she says sorry, can't sell it. You're done. You get a new agent. New agent can now do nothing with your book because it's already been sent to all the publishers and declined. New agent can't send it to the same publishers again. There are many, many wonderful and competent agents out there, but one who doesn't know their stuff can ruin your books chances at ever getting trade published.

That's what you can lose.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2017)

martysouth said:


> Yes, although three months seems like a long time to me. When I had an agent, it was a one-month turnaround for the genre imprints of all the big (however many it was back then) houses--and this was years ago--via snail mail.


You're right. It is is a long time. But if she's new, and you already know this, it seems reasonable to give her a bit of "extra" time. My agent usually has a list of editors in about two weeks....sometimes one. But she's been at this a long time. If this agent has talent, what's 12 weeks? During that time he could query other agents. Easier to get an agent when you have one.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> Easier to get an agent when you have one.


I hardly think more accomplished agents are going to be swayed by seeing someone represented by a newbie when the vast majority of us were able to figure out what's what with only a cursory glance. Agents don't care if you already have an agent. They care if you have something they can _sell_.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2017)

crow.bar.beer said:


> I hardly think more accomplished agents are going to be swayed by seeing someone represented by a newbie when the vast majority of us were able to figure out what's what with only a cursory glance. Agents don't care if you already have an agent. They care if you have something they can _sell_.


Agents are also more apt to give you a real look if another agent did. Rather than a form letter and a dismissal.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Pages and pages for something that needs only one response: run.

Read this:

http://www.sfwa.org/fees/


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> Agents are also more apt to give you a real look if another agent did. Rather than a form letter and a dismissal.


Nah, they're going to evaluate the author on their own merits, just like they would the other agent. Being "represented" doesn't mean anything when agents' business is to sell the works in question.


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## RichardDenoncourt (Dec 15, 2014)

I went ahead and declined. 

My reasons are numerous, all of them mentioned above. She hasn't read my book, she doesn't have contacts within the Big 5, neither she nor her agency have had notable success repping YA fantasy, and the contract had that weird clause about the author paying for promotional materials.

I don't see this as having been a waste of time. I knew I would make a decision based on information, and I want to thank you all for your advice. 

Time to promote the new book, which came out yesterday. Thanks again and I wish you all the best of luck in your writing and publishing endeavors!

Richard


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2017)

crow.bar.beer said:


> Nah, they're going to evaluate the author on their own merits, just like they would the other agent. Being "represented" doesn't mean anything when agents' business is to sell the works in question.


I think you're misunderstanding me. You're right that they'll judge on merits. But even my agent gives agented authors more than a passing look. It doesn't make her like their work more. But with the mountain of submissions, it's more likely to get them some attention.


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## James Ward (Jul 21, 2013)

When the literary author, Tibor Fischer, was with the Andrew Wylie agency - one of the English-speaking world's biggest - it charged him for photocopying.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3594613/Someone-needs-to-have-a-word-with-Amis.html

So maybe don't jump to conclusions...


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

James Ward said:


> When the literary author, Tibor Fischer, was with the Andrew Wylie agency - one of the English-speaking world's biggest - it charged him for photocopying.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3594613/Someone-needs-to-have-a-word-with-Amis.html
> 
> So maybe don't jump to conclusions...


I get a different take from reading about Andrew Wiley. There are reasons he's called "the Jackal."


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