# You Indie Authors need to start getting better covers....



## lanfearl (Jul 28, 2010)

I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.

I also know that the quality of the writing has nothing to do with the cover, but when you are an indie author who is trying to get your name out there... people are going to look at your cover and laugh.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

It's a tough call.  While a 'cheap' cover can be done for about $200 USD by a graphic-artist, quite often a lot of us are looking at $1500+ to get the -real- cover we want by graphic-artists/illustrators.  It's a situation where you take the low-road long enough to get enough $ to switch to the high road.   I think a lot of authors probably would spend $1000 on an editor than an illustrator.

Admittingly some people try their hand at their own covers and the results aren't "too bad" but there's always a handful of tweaks that separate the 'okay(ish)' from the "d*mn that's good" effect.

Paul.

*EDIT* Additionally, I think the problem is that -every- aspect of the package matters, web sites, publicist, content, cover, associated media (videos, audio, bookmarks, banners, posters).  For as much as it's sad not getting a buyer because your cover isn't "fantastic" it probably is worse to lure in the customer and confront them with a woefully edited book.

Paul.


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## Holly A Hook (Sep 19, 2010)

I've never laughed at a cover, but that just might be me.  But I have seen a variety in quality out there.  

I do agree that a good cover helps.  But sometimes it's out of reach for some people because they don't have the money to hire an artist (especially in this economy!) or aren't artists themselves.  However, I will admit that mine is the result of a camera, a dark room, and Photoshop.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

This is not my quote, but it is so on topic that I can't resisit:

"Only a fool judges a book by its cover." Will Rogers

I'll tell you why I agree with this.  A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a thousand words is only three pages.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

lanfearl said:


> I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.
> 
> I also know that the quality of the writing has nothing to do with the cover, but when you are an indie author who is trying to get your name out there... people are going to look at your cover and laugh.


I am working on it, I'm working on it!!! I have two that were done by a professional. For the book about to come out the artist did two mock-ups for me so that readers could vote on the final cover. Covers are funny animals. I have seen some that I thought were terrible only to find out the writer paid to have it done professionally. I've seen some I loved and found the writer did it herself with clipart!!! Good covers are very difficult and take practice.

Be patient. We'll get there.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Here's a tip that's not too expensive if you're doing it yourself;

Go setup accounts at istockphoto.com and dreamstimes.com - from there you can attain good quality artwork at reasonable prices.  When you're browsing make sure if you find something you like that it has ZERO or very few downloads.

I suggest using a vector editor like Inkscape rather than a bitmap one like MS Paint/Draw.

Paul.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> It's a tough call. While a 'cheap' cover can be done for about $200 USD by a graphic-artist, quite often a lot of us are looking at $1500+ to get the -real- cover we want by graphic-artists/illustrators. It's a situation where you take the low-road long enough to get enough $ to switch to the high road. I think a lot of authors probably would spend $1000 on an editor than an illustrator.
> 
> Admittingly some people try their hand at their own covers and the results aren't "too bad" but there's always a handful of tweaks that separate the 'okay(ish)' from the "d*mn that's good" effect.
> 
> ...


I agree. The profits from the first 50 sales of my novel were, at first, going to go for a fantastic dragon and sword cover. Instead, I paid an editor to tidy up the 700 page beast. 
I had a guy make the cover it has now and though it isn't great, at least I know the people who pay $7 bucks for my book did so for my art, not the cover art.

Also, Ulysys didn't have a great cover for the Odysy and neither did Shakespeare.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I love Will Rodgers, and I would agree that there are many a good books out there with terrible covers, and terrible books with great covers, so the cover is not an accurate measure of a book's worth.  But there is also a lot of competition out there, so why NOT give one's hard work the best possible start?  As someone else somewhere said, "You only get one chance to make a first impression."  The cover is often the first impression in a crowded market.

Many different things might make me take a look at a given book.  Cover is one of them.  Also, catchy title, word of mouth, an interesting post by an author here at KindleBoards.  And the last three could make up for a bad cover.  But cover definitely is one of the things that makes me consider or not consider a book, to start with.

I think this is a great discussion.  (I ask that no one take lanfearl's comments as a personal, because of course, they aren't, since your cover is great, right?  )

Betsy


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

I know there is at least one reader at Kindleboards who bought my book for its cover because she told me so! Thank goodness she liked the book too, ha!

A good cover is crucial. As Betsy said, first impressions and all.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm a big believer in the power of a good cover. And, I want to echo MrPLD's advice about places like istockphoto. I know nada, zilch, bupkis about graphic design. But, I knew I had to make an effort. I downloaded a free program called Gimp, spent about $10 on an image and used old fashioned trial and error to create mine. 

Of course, you'll get better results from a skilled designer, but you can create a decent cover yourself...on the cheap.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Also, if you browse through the Writer's corner, we have 2 or 3 cover artists who are prducing FANTABULOUS work for CHEAP flat rates so that they can build portfolios. I know Ronnell is only charging $50 for unique covers, and I'm pretty sure there was someone else who was equally inexpensive. Check their work, it's really quite good.

Oh.. and LK is probably talking about me... I totally browse/buy books by cover attraction first. 

It's like Dating in my book.. You want to look good for a first date, no matter how wonderful you are on the inside, if someone is not initially physically attracted to your outside, how do you expect them to stay around long enough to find out how hawt you are on the inside?


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> It's like Dating in my book.. You want to look good for a first date, no matter how wonderful you are on the inside


Why didn't anyone tell me this when I was sixteen



Betsy the Quilter said:


> I love Will Rodgers, and I would agree that there are many a good books out there with terrible covers, and terrible books with great covers, so the cover is not an accurate measure of a book's worth. But there is also a lot of competition out there, so why NOT give one's hard work the best possible start? As someone else somewhere said, "You only get one chance to make a first impression." The cover is often the first impression in a crowded market.
> 
> Many different things might make me take a look at a given book. Cover is one of them. Also, catchy title, word of mouth, an interesting post by an author here at KindleBoards. And the last three could make up for a bad cover. But cover definitely is one of the things that makes me consider or not consider a book, to start with.
> 
> ...


I think so too. I was reading a NYTimes article recently about how important covers are to people's perceptions of a book. I just did a quick search and unfortunately wasn't able to find it. Not only do covers influence which books we want to buy, we're also much less likely to pick up a book with an unappealing cover once it gets in our house.

Investing in a cover is a MUST for any indie author, and it's something that just plain has to be gotten right. Betsy has it exactly right when she says it's the first impression we get.

As for the authors around here, there are a lot who have great covers, I feel. William Campbell, Victorine, Ronnell. Definitely powerful images that get you psyched about a book!


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> Oh.. and LK is probably talking about me... I totally browse/buy books by cover attraction first.


I am TOTALLY talking about you! I told my cover designer what you said, and it made her so happy!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

sibelhodge said:


> Obviously a good cover is important to attracting you to the book and reading the blurb, but just how important is it in your purchasing decision? It would be interesting to get other people's opinions on here.





Betsy the Quilter said:


> Many different things might make me take a look at a given book. Cover is one of them. Also, catchy title, word of mouth, an interesting post by an author here at KindleBoards. And the last three could make up for a bad cover. But cover definitely is one of the things that makes me consider or not consider a book, to start with.


Forgive me for quoting myself above. 

If I start looking at a book despite a bad cover, it probably means there was some other reason that I looked at the book, as I said above: catch title, word of mouth, one of the scintillating posts in the "Davids" thread. And if one of those gets me interested in a book, I'll buy it DESPITE a bad cover. So a bad cover won't make me NOT buy a book I would otherwise be interested in.

But a bad cover does affect my purchasing in that there are books I skip by without even checking them out.

Betsy


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

What's a good cover? I'm apparently a very poor judge because to me, this isn't great:


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm not a fan of that cover either, Jeff. 

But, it has something going for it that most indies don't. People already know about it and aren't deciding to click or not to click based solely upon its merits (or lack thereof).


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## AJB (Jul 9, 2010)

I do most of my book-browsing at my local public library, where I usually can't even _see_ the covers of the books, only their spines. Word-of-mouth is definitely more important to me. But a bad cover can be off-putting - it took me longer than it should have done to start reading Terry Pratchett, for example, simply because I didn't like the artwork on his books!

Amanda


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


>


I never really looked at that book for the longest time because neither the cover nor the title intrigued me...but the word of mouth and a good deal on the price finally made me get it. Haven't read it yet though...

Betsy


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Monique said:


> I'm not a fan of that cover either, Jeff.
> 
> But, it has something going for it that most indies don't. People already know about it and aren't deciding to click or not to click based solely upon its merits (or lack thereof).


Haha. Well, I didn't expect that answer.

What I meant to say in response to the OP was that I don't know a good cover from a bad one. Mine may be awful.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Monique said:


> I'm a big believer in the power of a good cover. And, I want to echo MrPLD's advice about places like istockphoto. I know nada, zilch, bupkis about graphic design. But, I knew I had to make an effort. I downloaded a free program called Gimp, spent about $10 on an image and used old fashioned trial and error to create mine.
> 
> Of course, you'll get better results from a skilled designer, but you can create a decent cover yourself...on the cheap.


I think some people just don't have an eye for design though. People like yourself who do have a good eye for it can create something decent even with very minimal or basic skills. But without a good eye, it doesn't matter how many skills you acquire, you're not going to wind up with anything professional looking.

But I third the suggestion for stock images like istockphoto (which has more than just photos) and I second the suggestion for GIMP. Anyone who may already have Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, have a look around for free actions which will help you apply different looks.

I also suggest getting in touch with a university or design school which may have design students willing to work for less or even for free in order to build their portfolio. They may have a notice board or something where you can post an ad for the job - we had that at the photography school I went to.

Maybe it's because I'm a photographer and therefore a very visual person but if the cover looks unprofessional, I think it's natural to feel it might be an indication of the effort put into the writing too. I think particularly with romance novels, it's real easy to have a tacky looking cover that might give people the wrong impression about the book.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

history_lover said:


> I think some people just don't have an eye for design though. People like yourself who do have a good eye for it can create something decent even with very minimal or basic skills. But without a good eye, it doesn't matter how many skills you acquire, you're not going to wind up with anything professional looking.
> 
> But I third the suggestion for stock images like istockphoto (which has more than just photos) and I second the suggestion for GIMP. Anyone who may already have Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, have a look around for free actions which will help you apply different looks.
> 
> ...


Good points. I'd like to add deviantART as a great source for up and coming artists who might still be affordable.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Monique said:


> I'm a big believer in the power of a good cover. And, I want to echo MrPLD's advice about places like istockphoto. I know nada, zilch, bupkis about graphic design. But, I knew I had to make an effort. I downloaded a free program called Gimp, spent about $10 on an image and used old fashioned trial and error to create mine.
> 
> Of course, you'll get better results from a skilled designer, but you can create a decent cover yourself...on the cheap.


I think your cover is quite effective, Monique. It's simple and balanced. And the clock gears relate to the subject of "time." It made me look at the Amazon page. Which made me buy. 

I think the major mistake most new designers make is to try to have too many competing elements on the page. (The same is often true of new art quilters, by the way.) You essentially have four elements: the graphic, the title, the subtitle, and your name. You varied the size of each of those in order of importance and placed them so that the eye flows naturally. Good job. As for reading your book, it's in the to-be-read pile. Sigh....too many books, too little time!

Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

If and when my huge novel gets put into print, I will definitely invest in a highly eye pleasing cover. For now, the massive preview of my writing that is available is bigger than most whole books, so I will settle for fewer sales.  My upcoming mid-Oct. novel release has an expensive cover. I guess I will find out if it was worth the investment.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

I originally designed my cover using pix from BigStock.com and the Gimp program. I had a good idea in my head, but the best I could render was very sad compared to what the pro came up with:

table: 






















The Gimp program is free. The images cost less than $10 total, and the professional rendering cost $80, plus she threw in a banner for my website. Worth it? Oh, yeah!


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

Betsy, that's cool you put some info in your signature! That quilt of a chair outside in the snow...beautiful! Have you ever thought about quilting a book cover for someone? That would be the most amazing thing to have ever!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I think your cover is quite effective, Monique. It's simple and balanced. And the clock gears relate to the subject of "time." It made me look at the Amazon page. Which made me buy.
> 
> I think the major mistake most new designers make is to try to have too many competing elements on the page. (The same is often true of new art quilters, by the way.) You essentially have four elements: the graphic, the title, the subtitle, and your name. You varied the size of each of those in order of importance and placed them so that the eye flows naturally. Good job. As for reading your book, it's in the to-be-read pile. Sigh....too many books, too little time!
> 
> Betsy


Wow, thank you, Betsy!  That just made my day!

You're so right about balance. It's easy to want to cram everything in there. So many aspects of your novel are important to you and you want to highlight them all. In most cases, less is more, I think. Finding a good image gets you pretty far. Thanks to sites like istockphoto a beautiful graphic doesn't have to break the bank.


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## sherylb (Oct 27, 2008)

When I browse bookstores, the cover is definitely a part of what draws me to a book.

Now that I am buying 100% ebooks, my perception is a little different. I have been buying mostly indie books from people here on the boards.
My thoughts on book covers now is if you are an indie author an don't bother to have a cover that looks like you care about your content, then I probably won't care enough about your book to buy it. 
It doesn't have to be an expensive cover, it just has to look like you cared enough to make the effort.
Your cover IS a part of your book and you are fooling yourself if you don't think it matters all that much just because it is in ebook format.


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## jbh13md (Aug 1, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> I originally designed my cover using pix from BigStock.com and the Gimp program. I had a good idea in my head, but the best I could render was very sad compared to what the pro came up with:
> 
> table:
> 
> ...


I actually like the more transparent image of the woman, but I agree that the layout is better on the final cover. I've been meaning to read your book, by the way. Not because of the cover, but because of the description (though it is a good cover). I've been kind of kicking around a lot of science fantasy (for lack of a better term, perhaps) ideas myself, but none of them have really taken off. I like that you included wordplay right on the cover as well.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

Heres an idea for all of you authors out there. Go to your local college/art school and talk to the administration about having a student designer or student illustrator work on your covers as part of their mandatory internship program. When I was in art school we had to complete a mandatory, non-paid internship in order to graduate. Personally, I worked for a small toy company and designed/illustrated a "how-to" brochure for one of their toys. Not only does this get you an above average book cover but it gives the budding artist a chance to show their talents. It's a win-win for both parties involved.

Here's another idea; if the young artist does an excellent job and you want to compensate them in some way then just but them a Kindle with your books preloaded.

Good luck. 

PS - If there are any authors in Colorado that like this idea then I highly recommend The Rocky Mountain College of Art & Design. This is my alma mater and a great school of the arts.

PSS - I'm assuming that most art schools have an internship program. Good luck.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

As an artist I always find it amusing that people that aren't illustrators or designers think they can do what I do professionally. I would bet next months mortgage that a poorly crafted design from a professional would look ten times better then the best effort put out by an amateur. I would highly recommend looking into the internship idea I posted earlier in the thread. You will get work done by a young, budding professional trained in graphic design and illustration.


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## lanfearl (Jul 28, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> As an artist I always find it amusing that people that aren't illustrators or designers think they can do what I do professionally. I would bet next months mortgage that a poorly crafted design from a professional would look ten times better then the best effort put out by an amateur. I would highly recommend looking into the internship idea I posted earlier in the thread. You will get work done by a young, budding professional trained in graphic design and illustration.


Yeah. I don't agree with you at all. And I'm the OP. The best writers aren't people who studied literature in college and the best film makers didn't study film making at NYU.

Let the work speak for itself. No need to put limitations on it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> As an artist I always find it amusing that people that aren't illustrators or designers think they can do what I do professionally. I would bet next months mortgage that a poorly crafted design from a professional would look ten times better then the best effort put out by an amateur.


Ouch.

Am I bleeding?


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes but it's the truth. I design and develop web sites for a living and can't tell you how many times so-and-so said, "Geez, that's too expensive. I'll just have my nephew design my web site." I smile, say okay, and offer to work with him if he ever wants to invest in a professional web site.

A few weeks later I'll visit so-and-sos web site and you know what, it looks like his nephew did it. So be it.

I'm not saying that an amateur cannot create a decent book cover. All I'm saying is it may be in your best interest to let the designers and illustrators do the designing and illustrating. That's all.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And I suspect that most if not all of the authors here would agree with your latest post.  After all, I've read some posts here on KindleBoards where authors took umbrage at the idea that "anyone can write a book."  However, sometimes finances really do mean one has to have priorities.  And maybe a professionally done cover is for down the road.  I love your idea of working with a design school!

Betsy


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

If you live in a rural area not near a college or "art" school try checking your local high school as well. The art coming from many of them is UNBELIEVABLE! and these kids are DYING for portfolio work that will help them get into colleges. Our local HS has fantastic drawing/painting artists, as well as photography & amazing digital artists. They win national awards every year.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> If you live in a rural area not near a college or "art" school try checking your local high school as well. The art coming from many of them is UNBELIEVABLE! and these kids are DYING for portfolio work that will help them get into colleges. Our local HS has fantastic drawing/painting artists, as well as photography & amazing digital artists. They win national awards every year.


Great idea!


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

lanfearl said:


> Yeah. I don't agree with you at all. And I'm the OP. The best writers aren't people who studied literature in college and the best film makers didn't study film making at NYU.
> 
> Let the work speak for itself. No need to put limitations on it.


  Nicely said.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Lots of great advice here. There are oodles of talented young artists out there who are probably dying for an opportunity. I love cover art. I think it's a terribly underrated format. I love that Bravo's Work of Art had a cover art challenge this season.


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

sibelhodge said:


> Obviously a good cover is important to attracting you to the book and reading the blurb, but just how important is it in your purchasing decision? It would be interesting to get other people's opinions on here.


Well, let's put it this way: of the authors who have their cover images in their signatures just in this thread, there's exactly one image that looks interesting to me and one other that looks reasonably professional. The rest aren't sufficient to make me consider them over the 75+ books I already have waiting, or the numerous TBRs that I haven't purchased yet.

And yet, since I regularly buy books in spite of those two hurdles, I'd have to say that a good cover DOES make a difference. By the titles and some descriptive lines, it's evident that much of the work listed by authors on this thread falls into the genres I regularly read, so that's not the problem. The problem is that your competition is enormous, and anything you can do to get readers to eyeball your book listings instead of someone else's should be a priority if you want to be a paid writer. A well laid out professional cover will enhance your work. A homemade one, when graphics are not your strength, may alienate some readers. And if you're not attracting readers to those listings in the first place because of a poorly designed cover, whether or not they'd actually BUY a book of yours becomes irrelevant.

My .02 worth. I agree with everything Betsy posted as well--there are lots of ways to garner the right kinds of attention.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

I like LK's cover because it features a human face so prominently.  I think the best covers have some compelling action scene or feature an interesting face or figure.  Also, a good, attention-grabbing color combination doesn't hurt, something that attracts someone's gaze from across the room.  Getting someone to pick up a book is half the battle, and a good cover can accomplish that.  

Interesting thread--thanks for starting it.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

VictoriaP said:


> Well, let's put it this way: of the authors who have their cover images in their signatures just in this thread, there's exactly one image that looks interesting to me and one other that looks reasonably professional.


Hmm.. I have books from 6 of the authors in this thread, But does Jeff count?  His Malinacha novels were 2 of the first indie books I bought on my K1 almost 2 years ago, and they are no longer in his signature line.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

As a former editor at a publishing house, I've learned that getting a stranger to pick up your book requires three things:

1) A good title
2) A good cover
3) A good back cover (or, for the Kindle, a good blurb)
4) A great opening paragraph

All these are vulnerable spots for independent authors along with having the book professionally edited. There's a lot to do to compete with big publishers for readers.
I've used a designer named Daniel Will-Harris (http://www.will-harris.com/design.htm), who I particularly like because he reads my books in their entirety to get ideas for the covers. Then he'll give me eight or more mock-ups that are each quite different. I chose my favorite four, which he then tweaks for me, and I try those four out on many people for my market research.

Here are a couple of my covers. Like everything in books, one cannot please everyone, but I've found that "The Brightest Moon of the Century," when sold in bookstores with its cover out (versus spine out), the books sell themselves. That's because all four points above seem to work.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

BTackitt said:


> Hmm.. I have books from 6 of the authors in this thread, But does Jeff count?  His Malinacha novels were 2 of the first indie books I bought on my K1 almost 2 years ago, and they are no longer in his signature line.


I hope I count - and I'm very grateful that you bought my books. My signature line is a text link to my KB thread. The two volume set of _The Treasure of La Malinche_ are on that page. Do you like the cover?


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Jeff said:


> I hope I count - and I'm very grateful that you bought my books. My signature line is a text link to my KB thread. The two volume set of _The Treasure of La Malinche_ are on that page. Do you like the cover?


I did like the cover Jeff, that's the 1st reason I bought your books.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

If _The Strand_ magazine had not found Walter Paget to illustrate Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories, I doubt that Sherlock Holmes would have captured the public imagination in quite the same way. I'm not saying that this is the case for all writers, but sometimes having the right illustrations or cover art, particularly if a single character like Holmes has to carry most of the story, is crucial. I never would have picked up Robin Hobb's _The Assassin's Apprentice_ without Michael Whelan's cover art.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

VictoriaP said:


> Well, let's put it this way: of the authors who have their cover images in their signatures just in this thread, there's exactly one image that looks interesting to me and one other that looks reasonably professional.


Name names!


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> As an artist I always find it amusing that people that aren't illustrators or designers think they can do what I do professionally. I would bet next months mortgage that a poorly crafted design from a professional would look ten times better then the best effort put out by an amateur. I would highly recommend looking into the internship idea I posted earlier in the thread. You will get work done by a young, budding professional trained in graphic design and illustration.


How do you define "professional"? As someone with a degree and/or someone who works full time in and gets paid for their trade? As a photographer, I see a lot of hobbyists who are better than a lot of professionals and I see a lot of self-taught professionals who are better than those with photography degrees. I find it hard to believe the design industry is so different.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

history_lover said:


> How do you define "professional"? As someone with a degree and/or someone who works full time in and gets paid for their trade? As a photographer, I see a lot of hobbyists who are better than a lot of professionals and I see a lot of self-taught professionals who are better than those with photography degrees. I find it hard to believe the design industry is so different.


You're getting hung up on words and terminology and overlooking the spirit of my post. A professional is someone that earns money from their craft; simple.


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## lanfearl (Jul 28, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> You're getting hung up on words and terminology and overlooking the spirit of my post. A professional is someone that earns money from their craft; simple.


No. it's not semantics. Your being an elitist.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2010)

I was actually going to bring up photography too, in reference to MaloCS's comment. Amateur photographers are putting professional photographers in dire straights: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/business/media/30photogs.html . I think graphic design is a slightly different case though. I can go out and take 100 pictures and some of them might be able to pass for professional just because I like to travel and take pictures, but being able to manipulate that software takes a lot of time and effort. There are definitely people who do it as a hobby that are highly skilled, but it's not something that just anybody can do without any training. Many people who create graphics as a hobby get paid for it, though they are not professionals.

The problem facing graphic designers isn't complete amateurs, rather the sheer volume of professionals from around the globe competing with each other.


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> Here's a tip that's not too expensive if you're doing it yourself;
> 
> Go setup accounts at istockphoto.com and dreamstimes.com - from there you can attain good quality artwork at reasonable prices. When you're browsing make sure if you find something you like that it has ZERO or very few downloads.
> 
> ...


Paul, You took the words right out of my...keyboard? hahaha. But seriously, istock is a great way to get your cover to the next level. And while it is sage advice to never judge a book by it's cover, I am guilty of doing it on a daily basis. A cover is the billboard to your target audience. It should speak to the genre and content, projecting your story into the reader's minds before they ever lay eyes on a single word. And I completely understand the cost issue...I didn't have the $$$ to hire a professional (I do work in advertising though, so I cheated and held a contest), but before that, I had begun to use CreateSpace's stock cover templates and they would have worked well as long as appropriate cover art was purchased (I think my artwork from istock was $60, but there are photos/images on the site for less as well). But then again, maybe everyone thinks my cover blows and I shouldn't be offering advice


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

So a list of the suggestions for inexpensive, but quality work:


MrPLD said:


> Go setup accounts at istockphoto.com and dreamstimes.com - from there you can attain good quality artwork at reasonable prices. When you're browsing make sure if you find something you like that it has ZERO or very few downloads.
> 
> I suggest using a vector editor like Inkscape rather than a bitmap one like MS Paint/Draw.
> Paul.





BTackitt said:


> Also, if you browse through the Writer's corner, we have 2 or 3 cover artists who are prducing FANTABULOUS work for CHEAP flat rates so that they can build portfolios. I know Ronnell is only charging $50 for unique covers, and I'm pretty sure there was someone else who was equally inexpensive. Check their work, it's really Quite good





history_lover said:


> I also suggest getting in touch with a university or design school which may have design students willing to work for less or even for free in order to build their portfolio. They may have a notice board or something where you can post an ad for the job - we had that at the photography school I went to.





Monique said:


> I'd like to add deviantART as a great source for up and coming artists who might still be affordable.





MaloCS said:


> Heres an idea for all of you authors out there. Go to your local college/art school and talk to the administration about having a student designer or student illustrator work on your covers as part of their mandatory internship program. When I was in art school we had to complete a mandatory, non-paid internship in order to graduate. Personally, I worked for a small toy company and designed/illustrated a "how-to" brochure for one of their toys. Not only does this get you an above average book cover but it gives the budding artist a chance to show their talents. It's a win-win for both parties involved.
> 
> PS - If there are any authors in Colorado that like this idea then I highly recommend The Rocky Mountain College of Art & Design. This is my alma mater and a great school of the arts.





BTackitt said:


> If you live in a rural area not near a college or "art" school try checking your local high school as well. The art coming from many of them is UNBELIEVABLE! and these kids are DYING for portfolio work that will help them get into colleges. Our local HS has fantastic drawing/painting artists, as well as photography & amazing digital artists. They win national awards every year.


So, in the words of G.I. Joe, Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Generally it's not the photo artwork that bothers me with a lot of the covers I see here, but the font choices. So many of them look like they were cobbled together in Microsoft's WordArt, and look just awful.


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## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> So a list of the suggestions for inexpensive, but quality work:
> So, in the words of G.I. Joe, Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


Thanks for the summary, BTackitt. That's some really good info. I'd never thought about trying to enlist college or art school students, but I can see how that could really help them start their portfolios. The other links to istockphoto and deviantart are good too, even if only used to get ideas.

I've wondered what people might think of my book's cover, and had some mixed opinions on it from different people. Personally, I think it's eye catching and unique, but others see it as just a blob of colors, at least in thumbnail view. I think Monique's cover for 'Out of Time' is one of the better covers I've seen here, and I'm surprised to discover she did it all herself as a complete amateur using Gimp. Good job, Monique! LK's 'Space Junque' is also really good, I think. Very eye catching and memorable. That space girl is pretty cute, and the grey-blue skin tone really enhances it.


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## VictoriaP (Mar 1, 2009)

foreverjuly said:


> Name names!


  Nope. I make a policy of not naming names in posts like these. Too many easily hurt feelings.



BTackitt said:


> So, in the words of G.I. Joe, Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.


Great compilation of some terrific suggestions. Hopefully they'll be of use to some of our resident authors!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Thank you, Joe.


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## kae (May 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> I'm not a fan of that cover either, Jeff.
> 
> But, it has something going for it that most indies don't. People already know about it and aren't deciding to click or not to click based solely upon its merits (or lack thereof).


Also the author recently died...that gives is a mystique the rest of us can't (don't want to) match.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Good morning everyone, I see this thread has exploded in size and there's a lot of good advice and debate.



pidgeon92 said:


> Generally it's not the photo artwork that bothers me with a lot of the covers I see here, but the font choices. So many of them look like they were cobbled together in Microsoft's WordArt, and look just awful.


This is why I suggested people look to using *Inkscape* ( http://www.inkscape.org ). Using inkscape is a much better option when it comes to handling text, effects and such over WordArt/MSPaint/GIMP .

I do still use GIMP a lot, in fact I tend to go back/forth between the two many times depending on the task.

The other great thing about Inkscape is that it can generate any resolution output (though the images you import into it will limit the ultimate quality of the output).

Regarding "professional" results - you can pay anyone to do a job, it doesn't make them a professional. I've also been in the WWW site industry since 1995 and I can say that I've seen plenty of trash coming from all sides.

One site that really 'threw me' was Stephanie Meyer's - though I have to admit, it was done by her brother I believe.

When it comes to sites, artwork etc I prefer to keep things minimalistic as possible, not too many competing elements as has been said before on this thread.

Paul.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

T.L. Haddix,

I think you're over reacting to terminology instead of trying to understand the spirit of the words. This is a tad confusing to me because I believe an author should be able to distinguish between the two.

When observations are made on internet forums it's generally done in a generalized fashion. I know for a fact that my posts are generalizations and not referring to any specific person or author. A detractor of my statements can easily find that one exception to the rule that disproves what I'm saying but in reality it's just an exception. We can sit here all day and argue about art being subjective but the fact of the matter is that most professional designers and illustrators will create something more compelling and polished then the best amateur out there. Is this a hard fast rule? No. Does this mean that there aren't amateur designers/illustrators out there that can churn out professional quality work? Absolutely not. All it means is that generally speaking, a professional will give you a more polished and thought out product.

In my 39 years _(17 of those as a professional illustrator and web designer)_ I believe I have seen it all. I've had people tell me straight up that they could do what I do but I have yet to see any proof of those claims. I've had people scoff at my rates and then hire their next door neighbor's grandson's friend because anyone can do web design right? After all, They have FrontPage and Word. I'm generalizing here but most amateur work looks like an amateur did it. If I was an aspiring author the last thing I would want would be for potential readers to make the assumption that since the cover art is amateurish then the story inside is amateurish.

When I talk with potential web design clients I always tell them that their web site is an extension of their company's personality. If the web site is unusable then the average person will assume the product is unusable. If the web site is broken then the user will assume that the product is broken. If the web site is confusing then the user will assume that the service will be confusing. I always stress that money spent on a well thought out, well designed and well developed web site is worth it's weight in gold. After all, this collection of 0's and 1's is what defines your business and makes it easy for people to spend money.

Just food for thought.


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## Cathymw (May 27, 2010)

I think that this thread is a good one, for and from both sides of the debate. Yes, it's lovely to say "Don't judge a book by its cover" but people DO. All the time.

And the authors who are going to complain and say that they can't afford something nice, or that it shouldn't matter what their cover looks like and that it's their writing that matters... need to realize that they have A LOT of competition out there. If your cover looks bad,  or looks the same as thousands of other indie covers, or well, looks like an amateur designed it, it's going to lower your chances of standing out from the crowd.

A cover is designed to attract.  To show genre, perhaps, and to give an inkling of the content to a potential reader/customer.  Are authors that casual with the title of their book?  Remember that the title, in conjunction with the cover, is what is going to get people to stop and take a look at the book. Then and only then do you get the chance to blow them away with your superior writing skills. 

If they don't like the cover... you won't get that chance.

What also interests me about this thread is that it is on a Kindle message board.  I have heard people that think that e-book covers aren't as important as they are in the print version.  Obviously from what the readers are saying, they are.

Since the readers are who I'm trying to attract, I'm going to listen to them.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Just sticking my head in the room to remind folks to neither take comments personally nor make personal comments. Let's not sidetrack what many have found to be an interesting and useful discussion.

I'm depressed enough after the Redskins' dismal performance today....

Betsy


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Dragging things off topic a bit more - in my other line of work (programming and Electronics design/manufacture) I _love_ it when people tell me I can't do certain things, it just drives me to prove them wrong. Sure, it's a childish reaction but we all have a need for something to compel us. If nothing else it's a great way of finding my limits.

Paul.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Even some supposedly professional authors are getting awful covers on their Kindle books. For example:



Readers old enough to have read science fiction in the 80s ought to at least recognize Fred Saberhagen's name, making it a significant selling point. But you'd never know he wrote it, based on the cover. And the "art" is depressing for me even to look at!

This is an outstanding book by a science fiction writer who was major league in the 1970s and 1980s, but the cover is terrible--If I knew nothing about the book, I'd assume the worst based on that cover. Several of his books were released on Kindle lately with similarly bad covers. Saberhagen is deceased, and I assume some lawyer or money manager arranged for his stuff to be published on Kindle on a lowest-bid basis (I've never heard of the publisher). At least one other of his books about the same character has been published in Kindle form by TOR, and it at least has a cover that isn't embarrassing, despite a font choice that I think is weak:



Cover decisions make a big difference. If I was undecided between these and knew nothing else about 'em, I'd unhesitatingly go with the TOR book (and I'd be wrong--"An Old Friend of the Family" is actually a better novel in my opinion).


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Cathymw said:


> A cover is designed to attract. To show genre, perhaps, and to give an inkling of the content to a potential reader/customer. Are authors that casual with the title of their book? Remember that the title, in conjunction with the cover, is what is going to get people to stop and take a look at the book. Then and only then do you get the chance to blow them away with your superior writing skills.


Back before he became a successful science fiction writer, Spider Robinson wrote an extremely entertaining book review column, and he was fond of saying that the two most important words on the cover of a science fiction novel (probably applies to all fiction) were the author's first and last name. Back when I actually made purchases in book stores, I routinely grabbed science fiction novels by certain authors and bought them with little or no scrutiny, as long as they were by a favored author. And seeing the name of an author who has written something entertaining, even if (s)he isn't on my top five list, would at least get me to study the cover and look at the blurbs on the back cover and inside front. Where the author's personal style is important, as in fiction read for entertainment, having an idea of the atmospherics of the book, by knowing who wrote it, is really important, at least for me.


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## TomMWiseman (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks Joe.
I hope your words were not reflective of the majority of covers you see.

As a Computer Science major and a part time graphic designer, hopefully my covers are "up to par" 
Of course it won't matter what I come up with on my own if I acquire an agent for my next title. 

Tom


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## jackwestjr_author (Aug 19, 2010)

To publish a book and attempt to sell it as an indie author is like starting-a-business-lite.  Unlike opening a restaurant which can be capital intensive, publishing and promoting a book can cost nothing.  However, if you want to draw circling readers into your web, you must have marketing - unless you are already a celebrity.  The book cover image is our most significant marketing piece.  I agree with you that it is important, but like many of my colleagues above, I wish it weren't so.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> You're getting hung up on words and terminology and overlooking the spirit of my post. A professional is someone that earns money from their craft; simple.


Yep and my point was that there are plenty of photographers out there who DON'T earn money from their craft who are actually better photographers than many who DO earn money from their craft. Again, I find it hard to believe the design world is so different.



T.L. Haddix said:


> Art is subjective, and book covers are art.


That's true but I think we're talking about book covers which look unprofessional, not necessarily book covers we personally don't like. There are a lot of covers out there I don't really love but I can acknowledge they are professional looking - just not my style. I think the majority of people can agree when something looks professionals versus something that doesn't, regardless of our personally feelings on the style.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

history_lover said:


> I think the majority of people can agree when something looks professionals versus something that doesn't, regardless of our personally feelings on the style.


I think even whether something appears professionally or not still comes down to a matter of opinion, a subjective judgement. I've seen professional artists become so enamored of what proved ultimately to be a bad idea that they lost any objectivity.

But that's where having a second set of eyes comes in handy, as has been mentioned here. I think it's why the threads here where authors ask for opinions on prospective covers have been so popular.

Betsy


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

> I think it's why the threads here where authors ask for opinions on prospective covers have been so popular.


And even more interesting is how wide the range of tastes are.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

foreverjuly said:


> Betsy, that's cool you put some info in your signature! That quilt of a chair outside in the snow...beautiful! Have you ever thought about quilting a book cover for someone? That would be the most amazing thing to have ever!


I missed this earlier...

Thanks for the kind words about the quilt...it's one of my favorites; was sold off the wall at the Houston Quilt Show to the organizer; had it in my possession for about 2 days after completion.

As for the book cover, are you asking if an image of one of my quilts could be used as a book cover? If I could do a quilt out of a book cover design as a commission? Or if I could make a quilted book cover to put on a book one is reading?  The answers are yes, yes, no. 

Carry on....

Betsy


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Back before he became a successful science fiction writer, Spider Robinson wrote an extremely entertaining book review column, and he was fond of saying that the two most important words on the cover of a science fiction novel (probably applies to all fiction) were the author's first and last name. Back when I actually made purchases in book stores, I routinely grabbed science fiction novels by certain authors and bought them with little or no scrutiny, as long as they were by a favored author. And seeing the name of an author who has written something entertaining, even if (s)he isn't on my top five list, would at least get me to study the cover and look at the blurbs on the back cover and inside front. Where the author's personal style is important, as in fiction read for entertainment, having an idea of the atmospherics of the book, by knowing who wrote it, is really important, at least for me.


I love the title! "An Old Friend of the Family." That is a very compelling title.

My problem is that I have no taste. I have cover polls and people tend to pick the cover I dislike the most (for example, the cover of Exec Retention received an enormous amount of votes over two other titles.) I write cozies--and the drawn/art/almost cartoon covers (like the one for Lunch or the pro one done for Catch an Honest Thief) are pretty much a standard in the genre. I'm still searching for a happy medium where I understand what to produce and how to go about it. Publishers often miss with covers as well, so while I think my task is difficult, I have the advantage of playing with covers and trying until I feel I've hit it correctly.

Re: Pro versus Am. I tend to disagree. I think finding a talented person really has very little to do with "pro" versus amateur. Even when I worked in Computers, there were discussions about technicians or engineers--those with degrees versus those without. I knew many, many engineer/techs without degrees. And those guys could and would do just as much (or more) than many, many degreed engineers. For one, over half the ones with degrees were more interested in getting into management than focusing on engineering problems. For two, some of the non-degrees had an honest love for product work. That's not to say there weren't engineers with a love of the products--there were. But life isn't as simple as "those who love something are good at it" or "we all picked the right career."

Humans have a huge well of creativity and there are all manner of people who work in a non-creative job--but are motivated to learn an outside craft. There are many, many amateurs who wish to make money on a craft--sewing, quilting, writing, art, painting, you name it. Tapping that creativity and motivation is a wonderful find if you're lucky enough to come across it. And it doesn't matter if they are already pro or just want to be.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LKRigel said:


> I originally designed my cover using pix from BigStock.com and the Gimp program. I had a good idea in my head, but the best I could render was very sad compared to what the pro came up with:
> 
> table:
> 
> ...


I really appreciate LKRigel posting this; I think it's a worthwhile discussion of why the cover she commissioned works better than the one she did.

For me, the strength of the image is part of it...and again, the relative size of the title, subtitle and author name with the image lets the eye flow naturally.

Betsy


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

LKRigel,

  Sometimes though coming up with a 'concept' is one of the hardest parts.  With the relationship I have with my wife, she "slaps together" what she's trying to get done in GIMP, hands it over to me and says "now it's your turn", whereby I then rebuild the whole thing from scratch around the concept she's given me, adding the small but essential touches etc - then I had it back to her and she adjusts ... and so on.
  
  Coming up with concepts is a profoundly vital thing - if you can present it to the designer they can at least focus on the idea rather than they themselves spending hours wondering what to create.

Paul.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Another quick note from Betsy the Moderator instead of Betsy the Quilter:

Authors, when sharing your book covers, very pertinent to the discussion, please post only the link to the image, not a link to your book's page on Amazon, thanks!

Betsy


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

pidgeon92 said:


> Generally it's not the photo artwork that bothers me with a lot of the covers I see here, but the font choices. So many of them look like they were cobbled together in Microsoft's WordArt, and look just awful.





MrPLD said:


> Sometimes though coming up with a 'concept' is one of the hardest parts.


Absolutely agree with both of these comments 100%... I've seen a lot of very artistic covers lately that to me are just ruined by the same font I saw on every PowerPoint presentation created in the 1990's.



MrPLD said:


> This is why I suggested people look to using *Inkscape* ( http://www.inkscape.org ). Using inkscape is a much better option when it comes to handling text, effects and such over WordArt/MSPaint/GIMP .


I haven't played with Inkscape yet, but thanks for the tip, I'll check it out. I don't know if I agree with you that Vector is a preferable format for cover art though. It may be better than using Word or Paint, but I wouldn't say it's better than GIMP or Photoshop.

I have helped several of the board's authors with covers in the past. Then I got bit several times, putting hours into projects only to have my first draft discarded out of hand with no effort made at suggestions for improving it. Since I have never charged for any of this work, I felt pretty burned and haven't had much interest in helping for awhile. That said, if any of you authors would like some assistance, please PM me and we'll see if I can help out in some way.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

911jason said:


> I haven't played with Inkscape yet, but thanks for the tip, I'll check it out. I don't know if I agree with you that Vector is a preferable format for cover art though. It may be better than using Word or Paint, but I wouldn't say it's better than GIMP or Photoshop.


It depends a lot on what you're planning on doing with the text. Inkscape is marvelous for applying a lot of effects and has a good selection of "premade" templates that people can use which other fellow geeks won't immediately go "HAH - GIMP user!" - the big upside of using Inkscape is that you can adjust the parameters of the effects post-application, unlike with GIMP where you tend to have to roll it back, adjust and reapply.

I use GIMP a lot as well, typically when I'm needing to do final touch ups to the exported bitmap from Inkscape. If I'm going to work exclusively in GIMP I of course then need to make sure I'm sitting at a high enough resolution that I don't get caught short on pixels when I want to make a large poster or a high quality print .

Paul


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Whenever someone talks about book covers, I can only quote Ron Miller . A book cover is like a movie poster. It's job is to grab your attention and convey the feel of your book to the reader. Ron use to spend a lot of time in the Lulu forums trying to drill that point home for self-publishers. The book cover should reflect some of the norms of your genre. If you see a black cover with red text, you tend to think horror. If you see a nuetral tone cover with an image of an embracing couple, you think romance. You see an image of a wizard or dragon, you think fantasy.

The cover provides an immediate form of short hand to a potential reader. It's an important part of the initial communication you make with the reader. On average, you have less than seven seconds to get someone's attention. If you don't get their attention, all the preview pages in the world won't help you because they won't slow down to read them.


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## moondog (Sep 17, 2010)

lanfearl said:


> I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.
> 
> I also know that the quality of the writing has nothing to do with the cover, but when you are an indie author who is trying to get your name out there... people are going to look at your cover and laugh.


I couldn't agree more. If you're not a designer than you need a designer to pull your vision together. I am lucky enough to be a graphic and web designer working in the field of marketing. My one design has been incorporated into all of my books (self published - branding them as a series) and of course, all the marketing from web to print and everything in between. For an example of what I'm talking about have a look at my website www.the-judas-syndrome.com and look at the covers of the books and the web design and you'll see that they are very identifyable as a series and not at all "self-published" looking.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

I paid a lot for the cover of _33 A.D._ So much so that it took a long time to recoup the cost. I paid much less for _GRUBS_ and _Saying Goodbye to the Sun_, and I did the cover for _The Lake and 17 Other Stories_ myself. I actually like all of them a lot, but I doubt I'll pay as much for any future covers as I did _33 A.D._


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## JennaAnderson (Dec 25, 2009)

MrPLD said:


> And even more interesting is how wide the range of tastes are.


This is amazingly true. I really dislike dark covers with red or blue font. That's just my taste and maybe a touch of my old eyes having trouble seeing a thumbnail. I am also completely tired of headless people. Again, my opinion only. Dark covers tend to be created for sci fi, urban fantasy, horror - which are books I don't read. So do I really dislike the cover?

I have two cover favs right now: Faking It by Elisa Lorello and Always by Jodi Langston (she even cuts off the top of a head and I don't mind) They are bright, clean, eyecatching covers. They are only what I prefer - not what's best.

Authors using publishers, marketing reps, agents, etc will get feedback or be told what cover to use. Indies are very lucky to have the ability to choose the look themselves. It's all a mind game that marketing folks are trained on. Frozen foods are packaged in bright red colors for a reason. The gals in the deodorant and makeup commercials are wearing clothes that match the product - for a reason. Big expensive toys are at toddler eye level in the stores - for a reason.

I suggest before publishing your book get feedback on your cover from the audience you are targeting.

P.s. - I love my cover. It cost me $15 - a Caribou Coffee gift certificate given to the coworker that created it. The artwork was from a royalty free photo site.

Jenna


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

JennaAnderson said:


> P.s. - I love my cover. It cost me $15 - a Caribou Coffee gift certificate given to the coworker that created it. The artwork was from a royalty free photo site.


Your cover is an _excellent_ example of how simplicity frequently yields a superior result.

Paul.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Cathymw said:


> I think that this thread is a good one, for and from both sides of the debate. Yes, it's lovely to say "Don't judge a book by its cover" but people DO. All the time.
> 
> And the authors who are going to complain and say that they can't afford something nice, or that it shouldn't matter what their cover looks like and that it's their writing that matters... need to realize that they have A LOT of competition out there. If your cover looks bad, or looks the same as thousands of other indie covers, or well, looks like an amateur designed it, it's going to lower your chances of standing out from the crowd.
> 
> ...


I hear you. But still, judging a book by its cover is just plain foolish. People do it all the time, but it is still foolish. People drink and drive all the time too. A terrible book can have a great cover, and that leaves the reader with a 'bitter-toward-Indie' taste in their mouth. I don't need a gimmick to sell my book. At over 700 pages long, I have a 'free preview' that is longer than most books, and in the fantasy genre people will eventually get to it. If they don't open the preview and check it out because of my cover, then it's their loss. It seems that I have more faith in the intelligence of the consumer than most of you. People who read fantasy are generally very smart. And most fantasy covers, even by the greats, have a certain cartoonish-cheesy element to them anyway. Just look at the covers to R. Jordan's _Wheel of Time_. I think that if you feel you have to put some stellar cover on your work to get people to look at it, then you might be trying to cover something up inside it. But that is just me and MHO

Edited to add: If you need an image to understand what _The Sword and the Dragon_ is about, or what genre it is, then I am at a loss here.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Another quick note from Betsy the Moderator instead of Betsy the Quilter:
> 
> Authors, when sharing your book covers, very pertinent to the discussion, please post only the link to the image, not a link to your book's page on Amazon, thanks!
> 
> Betsy


oops -- did I do that? I think I just copied and pasted. Will be mindful in future... It looks like you fixed it -- thanks.

MrPLD and others -- yes, coming up with the concept is essential, ha. But there is still that distance between idea and execution. What I was trying to demonstrate with my comparison is just how important execution is. And I can NEVER get fonts anywhere near right.


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## CJ West (Feb 24, 2010)

David,

I really liked the cover for 33 AD. You got your money's worth.

I have no eye for color, so I pay a graphic artist. I'd be glad to hear what folks here think about mine (below in my sig line).

I think my aritist is doing a great job, but if you think I'm getting ripped off, I'd like to know!

CJ


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Just as a spot of encouragement, I wanted to show you all what can be done with some photos from istock places, Inkscape + GIMP (on Linux) and a few hours of work.

(I didn't know how to attach images in thumbnail without manually creating thumbnails so here's the links)

http://pldaniels.com/images/tolart1.jpg
http://pldaniels.com/images/tolart2.jpg
http://pldaniels.com/images/tolart3.jpg
http://pldaniels.com/images/tolart4.jpg

Regards,
Paul.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I missed this earlier...
> 
> Thanks for the kind words about the quilt...it's one of my favorites; was sold off the wall at the Houston Quilt Show to the organizer; had it in my possession for about 2 days after completion.
> 
> ...


Betsy, my mom was a quilter and fiber artist, and ForeverJuly's and your comments have inspired me to go back and take a look at her work for my next book cover. I checked out your website, and I love the "Where Fairies Dream" piece. Nice work!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> Generally it's not the photo artwork that bothers me with a lot of the covers I see here, but the font choices. So many of them look like they were cobbled together in Microsoft's WordArt, and look just awful.


Agreed.

Oh, and Heidi, your cover looks awesome, IMO. HK's as well. An interesting note - in both of them fonts are used that reflect the genre.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

CJWest,

  What's good about the last 4 books there is that they carry a very similar theme - this is rather important in a multi-book series, or even different books of the same theme/genre as it lets people recognise your work by the cover style before they've even read the name of the author.    This can also be used (and frequently is) to get people to pick up your book if it looks very similar to another popular author 


Paul.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

The trouble with doing the height= set is that people still end up downloading the whole image even if they don't want to see it, it's just shrunk by the browser... anyhow, that said, I went along and created thumbnails to link


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> I hear you. But still, judging a book by its cover is just plain foolish. People do it all the time, but it is still foolish. People drink and drive all the time too.


A cover is a strong indication of the care and production value put in a book, particularly among self-publishing. After almost a decade working in self-publishing, I can tell you without a doubt that a poor cover is very much a good indicator of whether or not the self-publisher has any clue what he or she is doing. A crappy looking cover very often indicates a badly edited, badly proofread book with bad formating and worse writing.

It doesn't mean that the cover needs to look like a work of art, but it needs to be clean, functional, and convey the idea to the reader. I have a million reading options available, and I certain would prefer to spend my time considering books by authors that show some care to what I want as opposed to thinking I'm the equivelent of a drunk driver.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> A cover is a strong indication of the care and production value put in a book, particularly among self-publishing. After almost a decade working in self-publishing, I can tell you without a doubt that a poor cover is very much a good indicator of whether or not the self-publisher has any clue what he or she is doing. A crappy looking cover very often indicates a badly edited, badly proofread book with bad formating and worse writing.
> 
> It doesn't mean that the cover needs to look like a work of art, but it needs to be clean, functional, and convey the idea to the reader. I have a million reading options available, and I certain would prefer to spend my time considering books by authors that show some care to what I want as opposed to thinking I'm the equivelent of a drunk driver.


No, a cover is only the indication of the cover. It says absolutely nothing about the content. It is a wrapper, and is a billboard of sorts, but you cannot argue that a great book can have a bad cover and a bad book can have a great cover. So It can't do anything more than draw a person. To a well read person, it has no bearing on the publishers/authors care or the production value, NONE! You may have a million reading options available, but a person looking for a true epic fantasy novel does not. There are very few, in fact almost no, Indie writers writing 235k word (700+ page) true epic fantasy novels. I don't have the competition the others have. So I can afford to skimp on the cover. I did not skimp on the edit.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> *So It can't do anything more than draw a person.*


Drawing a potential reader is a pretty big deal. And people don't browse by number of words. I'm not trying to poke at your book, I'm just saying. People _generally_ select a book by:
1) Author (if it's a known author such as Robin Hobb, Jim Butcher, etc.)
2) Genre
3) Cover / Title
4) Back cover blurb
5) First few pages

In that order. If they aren't looking for a specific book, they will go to the genre of their choice and start browsing covers. If one catches their eye, they read the back blurb. If the back blurb sounds interesting, they may decide to buy, to put it back, or they may browse the first few pages.

Now, that's for a brick-and-mortar sale. For an eBook sale, it's probably a bit different. Regardless, covers factor in. You can rant and rave about how it shouldn't, how it doesn't, etc. but the bottom line is, it does.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> You may have a million reading options available, but a person looking for a true epic fantasy novel does not. There are very few, in fact almost no, Indie writers writing 235k word (700+ page) true epic fantasy novels. I don't have the competition the others have. So I can afford to skimp on the cover. I did not skimp on the edit.


Quality...not quantity...is the significant factor of what is or is not "epic fantasy."


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Drawing a potential reader is a pretty big deal. And people don't browse by number of words. I'm not trying to poke at your book, I'm just saying. People _generally_ select a book by:
> 1) Author (if it's a known author such as Robin Hobb, Jim Butcher, etc.)
> 2) Genre
> 3) Cover / Title
> ...


I am not disagreeing that a cover helps, but I don't think anyone just happens upon my book page at Amazon. They go there because they were directed there, by an ad, or a recomendation, or a review, or my bazzar page here at KB. So the cover (in those cases) means little as far as drawing a reader. On a shelf in a book store *it does matter* and in an earlier post I said that when I take that step I would get a better cover. That said, my covers (Wardstone Trilogy) are not that bad. They convey a classic sort of D&D image, at least to me. The covers of my short stories are redundant. I see no reason to invest a fortune in covers of short stories.

My upcoming release has a great cover and a great edit (edit by Jeff Hepple's son Scott) I'll let you see the cover:










Thats what I am going with....


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> Thats what I am going with....


That's a nice cover, IMO. The only quibble I'd have would be the font for "The Royal", but that's a very subjective thing. Agree with you about short stories.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Arkali said:


> That's a nice cover, IMO. The only quibble I'd have would be the font for "The Royal", but that's a very subjective thing. Agree with you about short stories.


Thanks, The cover was done by: [email protected]


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Font choice is hugely important. Just my opinion here, but the Papyrus font should come with a disclaimer for Indies. When we were working on book one's cover (which was a very, very contentious cover), I initially wanted Papyrus, but my husband talked me out of it.


What is it about that font?? I used it on my first cover as well and thought it looked awesome. I wish I had someone who had talked me out of it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

moving this topic to the Cafe since it appears to be more appropriate there. .. . . .


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Drawing a potential reader is a pretty big deal. And people don't browse by number of words. I'm not trying to poke at your book, I'm just saying. People _generally_ select a book by:
> 1) Author (if it's a known author such as Robin Hobb, Jim Butcher, etc.)
> 2) Genre
> 3) Cover / Title
> ...


Speaking as a reader and a consumer, I browse eBooks exactly the same way as I do regular books. The only exception being, of course, I can't pick them up and "smell the pages", as some are fond of saying. (Not that I am into sniffing paper, I've kicked that habit. I only touch it now. )

Unless they are in a library or on a Free table at a jumble sale, books are consumer products. And I see a book--physical book or pixel book-- as a complete product, no matter what length it is. I judge the product by the full presentation, inside and out. Sure, it's a risk that crap might be in the box, on that fancily plated meal, or between the covers. Then again, it might be a hidden gem. Master chefs have been stunned tasting what looked like the dog's dinner but tasted like heaven on earth. Which is why a consumer, or reader, will check peer reviews in various places, want to see/taste/read samples out of the box, and think about what they're getting--especially if they were disappointed before.

The bottom line is: good packaging inspires confidence. Good content inside that packaging send confidence home and builds consumer loyalty. Which is what indie press/indie authors have to do. (ETA: And yes, many here do exactly that.) Sure, some readers take a chance-- but if the goal is to be taken more seriously, as worthy in the Big Arena, the product has to have appeal inside and out.


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## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> What is it about that font?? I used it on my first cover as well and thought it looked awesome. I wish I had someone who had talked me out of it.


It does look awesome. That's why so many people choose it. They used it for James Cameron's Avatar movie posters, and credits too, I think. But there's a lot of people who like to knock it just because it's so popular, like Stephen King's writing.

I remember seeing lots of posts on other sites complaining about Avatar's choice of font, likening it to using MS Comic Sans.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Font choice is hugely important. Just my opinion here, but the Papyrus font should come with a disclaimer for Indies.


There are many entertaining sites dedicated to font use, like this one: http://lmnop.blogs.com/lauren/2006/10/americas_most_f.html

Fonts have personalities all their own. Think of a title like _Pride and Prejudice_ in, say, Metal Lord font...it'd look odd, to say the least.

I tend to favor Angleterre and David for their grace and balance, but used Andalus for the cover of _The Ryel Saga_ because of its slightly exotic feel. All three are readily legible in a thumbnail.

CK


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

foreverjuly said:


> As for the authors around here, there are a lot who have great covers, I feel. William Campbell, Victorine, Ronnell. Definitely powerful images that get you psyched about a book!


Sweet! Thanks, Jason. You know, your covers belong in the same group. Great stuff. And others I would add are Daniel Arenson's. I totally dig the new one for Flaming Dove. Also, I've always had high regard for Dalglish's Half-Orc series and McAfee's 33 AD. I can't say anything about Saying Goodbye to the Sun, since I'm biased, having helped David with the Photoshop work.

Not all covers please everyone. I've had my fair share of criticism of mine. One blogger noted, "It's one of those CGI animation type images that's so out-of-place on a book cover." Apparently he didn't realize the illustrations are hand-drawn. Okay, using a Wacom tablet and Photoshop, so they're not completely analog, but there's an artist behind that pen (Alan Gutierrez). It ain't computer generated when a person draws. But, hey, any attention is better than no attention. The slam of my cover probably sold some books.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Your covers very much have a movie/anime feel to them. Personally, I find them very attractive, although they are pretty busy. Just more reason to study 'em


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

Cover important?  Hell, yeah!  Ronnell is designing three for me now, for my Southeast series.  I hope to be able to show them off here and get a few reactions.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Cover design definitely matters.

I've been pleasantly surprised by how many readers have mentioned, either in a review or email, that they initially noticed my third novel because of the cover. As I'm traditionally published, I did not design it and didn't get a whole lot of input beyond making suggestions. But it's extremely professional-looking and certainly eye-catching. Given the number of times someone has specifically told me that the cover attracted them, I believe wholeheartedly that it's an integral aspect of luring readers in.

Personally, an amatuerish or poorly-designed cover can quickly turn me off when I'm browsing for books by authors I don't know. Fair or not, this is particularly the case with indie books. As someone said earlier, my perception when I see a terrible cover on a self-published book is that the author hasn't put the appropriate amount of thought or effort into creating a professional product. Yes, it's completely true that a wonderful book can be packaged in a crappy cover, and vice versa. That's a shame for the wonderful book. Unless I come to it based on strong reviews or word-of-mouth, I will likely have a hard time getting past the cover to find out just how good it is.

Is that unfair? Yes. But it's also human. There are a lot of books out there competing for my attention. The title and cover are literally the first things I see. If it looks like you slapped together a cover in MS Paint and chose Comic Sans as the title font, the connection my brain makes is that you're not taking your work very seriously. 

I appreciate what was said earlier about "professional" vs. "amateur" cover design. Obviously there are "amateur" artists out there with more natural talent than their professional counterparts, who have simply never chosen to make design their career. I don't think being paid to do something is the deciding factor as far as whether you're competent at it or not. But I agree that authors should be realistic about their own design skill and, if they are not capable of creating a professional-looking cover, they need to find someone who is. That doesn't necessarily mean a graphic designer by trade. It just means someone who has the skill to create something that looks like it could have come out of a large publishing house.

For what it's worth I think there are a number of well-designed covers among Kindleboards authors. There are also some that really need to be rethought. Of course "art" is subjective, but it's not hard to draw a line in the sand between "professional-looking" and "crap", in most cases. People just need to be honest with themselves about where their strengths lie, and if they want to make a serious go of being a professional author, they need to go all-in when it comes to marketing, whether or not that means investing some of their own money. Deciding to publish independently is just like starting a business. There are very few businesses that can be started without some kind of investment. Publishing is no exception, no matter how much raw talent you possess.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I suppose what I say here should fall under "Do as I say, not as I do" because for the first couple of books I was just messing around.  But....

IMHO, you shouldn't even consider doing your own cover if you don't know what the word "kerning" means or how and when to use it.  

Typography is probably the biggest factor in your cover, and it's the one that seems to get the least attention (other than choosing a font).  It's not just about choosing a font, it's about how you use it.  Even just learning how to do a drop shadow with a gaussian blur can make a big difference in your cover (as can knowing when NOT to use it).

The other thing is that you should study covers in your genre.  Study color choices.  Study actual proportions. Heck, practice using your software by duplicating the cover (note how its never easy unless you know your typographic tools).  Until you can afford a designer, figure out a standard style that you can imitate, and use it.

But as others have said, hire a designer.  Unfortunately, you may not  have a lot of success using an art student unless you have a good sense of design yourself.  Most students are not "A" students, and they have strengths and weaknesses.  Just because they some beautiful portfolio pieces doesn't mean that they can take your concept and do as good of a job with it without guidance.

Remember the point of an internship is that the student learns from the client!  It's nice when a college can have an internal internship - where an instructor can guide them - but those are rare.  The reason is because a college should not go into "business" and compete with the people who will hire their students.  It's a great way to get your students black-balled from employment. (This is probably less of a consideration in big cities.)  Our school only does internal projects and non-profit organizations through such an internal internship.

The other thing that a school can't do is "recommend" one student over another for freelance.  That's not ethical.  So usually what you do is post a job and students contact you.  (After that a student may be able to use the professor as a reference - that's instigated by the student, though, so it is ethical.)

Camille


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

healeyb said:


> I love you for this. I hope you don't mind, but I'm stealing that.


No problem...lol


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> A picture may be worth a thousand words, but a thousand words is only three pages.


I agree. That's an awesome line.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

I've tried doing my own covers, but they always look terrible. Ronnell does great work, and I think it was Monique who suggested deviantArt.com, which is where I found the artist to do the art for my upcoming book. However, I wasn't real happy with the artist's font choice, and so I'm handling that part myself (with help from my writer friends here and at mobileread.com).


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

kcmay said:


> I've tried doing my own covers, but they always look terrible. Ronnell does great work, and I think it was Monique who suggested deviantArt.com, which is where I found the artist to do the art for my upcoming book. However, I wasn't real happy with the artist's font choice, and so I'm handling that part myself (with help from my writer friends here and at mobileread.com).


This can be a good thing too - if you feel comfortable doing typography, hire an illustrator but you do the end design. At the very least, insist that they give you the file with typographical elements on separate layers. (Hey, it's an ebook, you can change the title! You need the ability to change that.)

However, of you're hiring a top designer, you probably should trust their judgment.

Camille


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> What is it about that font?? I used it on my first cover as well and thought it looked awesome. I wish I had someone who had talked me out of it.


I love Papyrus too! But everyone told me not to use it so I didn't. I still love it though and think it's a great looking font. I have heard that there are issues with it from a printing standpoint ... I found some great fonts out there that are similar, but really expensive to buy (definitely not standard, which is what I loved about Papyrus).


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

By and large, the reason many graphic designers and art directors frown upon certain typefaces is because they are so widely used. For example, Times New Roman is a beautiful font and lends itself to a wide variety of uses. Unfortunately, because it is so widely used it does not lend itself to being unique.

When I was a young artist in the industry I was often instructed to use a font that felt like Times New Roman but wasn't Times New Roman. This always frustrated me because I would just be thinking, "If that's the case why not just use Times New Roman?". It wasn't until I gained some experience that I realized what my art directors were going after; a classic look and feel without relying on an over used typeface. It didn't matter that Times New Roman was a timeless design, all that mattered was the impression that particular font projected.

One art director explained it to me like this: "If we use Times New Roman it gives the impression that our work is common and simple. Not because the font is common and simple but because the font is so damn accessible. Anybody with Word, PowerPoint or Excel can use Times New Roman so that's why we don't use it. We're professionals and we will give our clients something more dynamic then Times New Roman.".

Many here may disagree with the above statement but it's one I found to be very common in the industry. At least at the agencies I worked at. I've also taken this statement as a challenge to not rely on common fonts and to push my boundaries as a designer and illustrator.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

As many of you know, I write (ahem) 'lengthy' books. One of the most important considerations in choosing a font (for me) is economy. The font must be classy, not 'odd', and save me on PAGE COUNT!

More pages BAD. Fewer pages GOOD. 

Garamond saved me nearly 20% on my page count over Times Roman. (11-point Garamond is amazingly readable.)
It's a wonderful, elegant, professional-looking font.

There's so much more to designing a good cover than the 'artwork'. There's wrapping around the spine and the back, placing text so it's punchy but doesn't overwhelm, and so on. That stuff takes expertise and experience to know. Artwork alone won't cut it. The images of my covers which appear below are the older versions. The newer ones have been re-done by experts. They're much better--especially the back covers.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Archer (the Bard) said:


> As many of you know, I write (ahem) 'lengthy' books. One of the most important considerations in choosing a font (for me) is economy. The font must be classy, not 'odd', and save me on PAGE COUNT!
> 
> More pages BAD. Fewer pages GOOD.
> 
> ...


Ahem...lol with 5k sales I would say that you are in another league as us Indies... You are so popular you are not Indie anymore...lol Your from the Altera publishing house.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Archer (the Bard) said:


> The images of my covers which appear below are the older versions. The newer ones have been re-done by experts. They're much better--especially the back covers.


Can you show us the new ones so we can compare with your signature?

Betsy


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## Travis haselton (Jul 24, 2010)

I think covers should primarily catch the eye. On top of that, they should catch the eye of the people who would like your book. For example if I went to mysterious with my book cover someone into (for example) fantasy could get it and obviously not end up liking it. The cover can always be improved on as your budget increases.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Quality...not quantity...is the significant factor of what is or is not "epic fantasy."


I replied to this earlier with a link to a review, but Betsy deleted it. So I will say this. Go read the reviews of my book on Amazon. Specificly the review done by Fantasy Book Critic which is above the product description in the Editorial Reviews area, you can get the same link in my Bazzar thread. Fantasy Book Critic *is not* an Indie review site. They do not normaly do Indie books. They have a sub list of over 3500 and their hit counter shows 2 million hits. Since I have a cover that has been reffered to as plain, or lacking, the first paragraph where the reviewer talks about finding my book should be of great interest. Keep in mind I didn't submit my book to these people, they found my crappy cover and opened my book on their own. I only bring this up, Bards n Sages, because your statment implies that my quality is at question.

Edited to add:


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

lanfearl said:


> I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.


That's exactly what I did. I pasted together a clip art picture. Originally, it was meant as a prototype for my artist to work from. He dragged his feet and dragged his feet. Finnally, I put the clip art one on my book just to have something to tie me over. 
Now, I growing to like it. the story is a spoof, so I think a spoofy cover might work.









MR, are you HERE too!


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Can you show us the new ones so we can compare with your signature?
> 
> Betsy


Yes, but don't hate me...the only way I can do it is to link to print book on Zon. I can't seem to get Flickr to cooperate on KB for some reason! 
So...DON'T anyone click on this! It's just so you can see the cover!!

_







. I removed the link. Click all you want.  --Betsy_

Title is bigger, subtitle is tastefully included without cluttering, and author's name is a bit larger.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm personally not a big fan of Papyrus. It's great for Ancient Egyptian themes; a bit overdone for anything else, IMHO.

Here's my indie cover. I'm happy with it.










You can see a high res here.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> One art director explained it to me like this: "If we use Times New Roman it gives the impression that our work is common and simple. Not because the font is common and simple but because the font is so d*mn accessible. Anybody with Word, PowerPoint or Excel can use Times New Roman so that's why we don't use it. We're professionals and we will give our clients something more dynamic then Times New Roman.".


Yes, this is one of the big points that should be noted. While I applaud that a lot of things have become infinitely more accessible to people outside of the 'industry' the downside though is that they frequently expose themselves to negative impressions by not actually realising just how high the standard bar is. Differentiating yourself from the 'pack' is very important and it's something that is harder to do each day as more people flood in.

Unfortunately it can be a bit like when a child shows you their first painting, they're profoundly proud of it and those around them will often also heap praise on because it was indeed a good effort - _however_ the quality of the work wilts quickly when exposed to the brutality of consumer's eye.

I for one love to encourage people to do their own work, to explore their talents and to try always be improving on them - however it is _vitally_ important to get opinions from external parties - though typically the consumer response is the best test 

Paul.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> And others I would add are Daniel Arenson's. I totally dig the new one for Flaming Dove.


Thanks! Your covers are very well done, too.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

M.R. Mathias said:


> I replied to this earlier with a link to a review, but Betsy deleted it.


However, I also invited you to copy and post here the pertinent part of the review. Just to clarify...



Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> However, I also invited you to copy and post here the pertinent part of the review. Just to clarify...
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


Thanks Betsy...

*Sorry, Michael--I misunderstood; I thought there was something in the review that addressed your cover. Since it didn't, I removed the review. You can make your point without the actual content of the review. I apologize for the confusion.--Betsy*

The link to the full review can be found in my KB bazzar page. But my point that a cover does not mean as much as you might think is proven here. And now I have a read on recieve status with Liviu.

This COVER had nothing to do with that!


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## robertduperre (Jun 13, 2010)

I agree that Daniel has some fantastic covers.  Actually, I thought the one for "Firefly Island" is even better than Dove.  And Dalglish and Valmore have some great covers, as well.  (Old-Fashioned Folk Tale?  Are you kidding me?)  Those three are probably my favorites.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

robertduperre said:


> I agree that Daniel has some fantastic covers. Actually, I thought the one for "Firefly Island" is even better than Dove. And Dalglish and Valmore have some great covers, as well. (Old-Fashioned Folk Tale? Are you kidding me?) Those three are probably my favorites.


They do have good looking covers. That can not be denied, but you don't really see the detail on most ereaders, gray-scale or tiny blackberry screens do not show them as well as the PC screen.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

robertduperre said:


> I agree that Daniel has some fantastic covers. Actually, I thought the one for "Firefly Island" is even better than Dove. And Dalglish and Valmore have some great covers, as well. (Old-Fashioned Folk Tale? Are you kidding me?) Those three are probably my favorites.


Thanks, Rob. Here are the covers for Firefly Island:

The hardcover:










The ebook:


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Daniel,

  The eBook cover for Firefly Island is one I'd pick very quickly.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> Daniel,
> 
> The eBook cover for Firefly Island is one I'd pick very quickly.


Agreed. I'm a huge fan of that cover. Flaming Dove is beautiful as well, but that Firefly Island one is simple and incredibly catchy.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> The eBook cover for Firefly Island is one I'd pick very quickly.


Thanks. The golden firefly emblem appears in the book itself; it hangs on the wall of a palace.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> Daniel,
> 
> The eBook cover for Firefly Island is one I'd pick very quickly.


Agreed.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> Agreed. I'm a huge fan of that cover. Flaming Dove is beautiful as well, but that Firefly Island one is simple and incredibly catchy.


Thanks Jess. They're so different that it's hard to compare them, I think. Flaming Dove's cover is more impressive from an artistic point of view; it's lovely, detailed artwork that accurately depicts the main character. Firefly Island has a simple-yet-mysterious cover, I think.

BTW, the Firefly Island hardcover has some artwork that's hard to appreciate in a small image. You can view the full image here. What do you think?

I agree with those who mentioned David Dalglish's covers; they are fantastic.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


>


M.R. Mathias,

I think you're missing the spirit of the posts in this thread. It has been stated many times that there are always exceptions to the rule but these exceptions are just that, exceptions. The rule has been forged because the rule has been proven to be right more times then it's wrong. It's just the way it is.

Your book cover is a very good design based upon a few design and color theory principles. The use of red letters on a solid black field is a tried and true color scheme that just works. The font you have chosen compliments the dark, mysterious feeling of the color choices and the absence of any visual imagery adds to the overall feeling.

Having said that there are some things I feel could be handled differently to increase the dramatic effect of your design. One, the sub title and author name should be different sizes. Making them the same size confuses the eye as to which one is more important. I would choose the element you want to emphasize and make it larger. Two, I would get rid of the bevel effect on the title. That effect is an over used Photoshop filter that tends to be abused more often then not. This falls in line with the opinion that since such an effect is so common it should not be used. Push yourself to find a different way to express the feeling of three dimensions. In fact, if you really like the three dimensional effect I would emphasize it even more. Make it look like you thought about the effect instead of just applying a common filter to the text. If that doesn't appeal to you then just remove it completely. Three, I would get rid of the lens flare behind the text. Again, this is such a common effect it makes your design look common.

Regardless, this particular book cover is a very good start and does a great job of projecting a certain mood. You may disagree with me and hold true to the belief that it is a finished work but it really isn't. It's not that far off from being complete but in it's current state it's not. I would love to see you revise the design because it really is a compelling book cover.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

I've been prowling Amazon lately, noting bestselling indie authors in order to use them in my ever-broadening argument against the mainstream who think I'm the only one in the world who has any self-publishing success.

I've found a lot of indie bestsellers, and one of the easiest ways to find them is by looking at the covers. The majority aren't as well done as traditionally published books.

When I first self-pubbed on Kindle, 20 months ago, I used the covers I'd done. To say they were mediocre would be kind.

Once I made a bit of money, the first thing I did was hire a pro. My sales went up dramatically.

When Lee Goldberg was lamenting his slow sales, I told him to go to my artist. He did. Lee's sales went up dramatically.

I pay $300 a cover--less if I'm buying several at once. Carl Graves, cgdouble2(at)sbcglobal.net has since done many covers for other authors. I'm impressed by not just his ability to create eye-catching, professional covers, but by his range. His covers don't all look the same.

If you have even the slightest feeling that your cover isn't professional enough, then it isn't professional enough. A professional artist brings a lot to the table--things we're not even aware of. Some things Carl taught me include:

How does it look in grayscale? Kindle is grayscale.
How does it look thumbnail sized? Can the title and author still be read? Thumbnails are usually the first thing a read sees.
Does the font look integrated in the image, or tacked on?
Is the color scheme consistent?
Does the cover convey the genre and the story?

He knows what makes something both aesthetically pleasing and provocative. He works with me until I get something I'm happy with. If I want something that he doesn't feel is working, he explains why I'm wrong.

Here are the ones he's done for me, along with three that he hasn't. Can you spot the three he didn't do? One was done by another professional artist. One was done by my brother. One was done by my friend's wife.

                  

I encourage you to click on them and look at them full size in order to see the detail. I figured it was impolite to post twenty big jpgs...


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

It's also worth noting that the one done by my brother is my poorest seller. But I love the guy, so I'm keeping it.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I've been prowling Amazon lately, noting bestselling indie authors in order to use them in my ever-broadening argument against the mainstream who think I'm the only one in the world who has any self-publishing success.
> 
> I've found a lot of indie bestsellers, and one of the easiest ways to find them is by looking at the covers. The majority aren't as well done as traditionally published books.
> 
> ...


Well said Jack.

PS - I'm about 30% into Endurance right now and loving it.


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## JeanetteWrites (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm an indie author and I love the cover of my novel NO STONE UNTURNED. Many readers have commented on how well it reflects the story, especially a critical plot line.










_Jeanne--Welcome to KindleBoards. You're welcome to start a thread for your blog and for your book in the Book Bazaar. This thread, though, is specifically about the covers, so I removed the link to your blog and replaced it with link to the cover. (You may put it in your profile signature, however! Thanks!--Betsy, KB Moderator_


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Here is the cover for my October release, a 113k word fantasy thrill ride from, well you know where!  It will be priced at $3.33  High Res  'must scroll down'










It is a finished work. I already posted earlier that when I decide to put The Sword and the Dragon into print I will get a better design.

I have a set though and I will get them all done at once, when all three books are polished, and released. To do so sooner would be sort of weird.

Here they are as a set:


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

My covers may not be perfect, but I like them.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


>


M.R. Mathias,

I actually like the trilogy covers better. The only things I would do is what I outlined in my above post.


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## robertduperre (Jun 13, 2010)

kcmay said:


> My covers may not be perfect, but I like them.


KC, I think your cover for The Kinshield Legacy is fantastic. Love it...


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

I have read all of these cover posts with interest, because my cover for Learn Me Good is certainly amateur.  I mean, I made it using MS Powerpoint.  But my story doesn't involve fantastical creatures, or mystery, or danger, or espionage, or cats and dogs living together -- mass hysteria!!  It's just a simple tale of a teacher's experiences in the classroom.

However, I'm open to suggestions if anyone would like to offer them.  Any thoughts on 1) whether my cover really NEEDS to be spiced up, or 2) what would make it spicier?  (Aside from having a half-orc, vampire, firefly, or martini eating one of my kids?)


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

kcmay said:


> My covers may not be perfect, but I like them.


I like the Vipers one... Dude looks bad arse!


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> I have read all of these cover posts with interest, because my cover for Learn Me Good is certainly amateur. I mean, I made it using MS Powerpoint. But my story doesn't involve fantastical creatures, or mystery, or danger, or espionage, or cats and dogs living together -- mass hysteria!! It's just a simple tale of a teacher's experiences in the classroom.
> 
> However, I'm open to suggestions if anyone would like to offer them. Any thoughts on 1) whether my cover really NEEDS to be spiced up, or 2) what would make it spicier? (Aside from having a half-orc, vampire, firefly, or martini eating one of my kids?)


Off the top of my head I would say take a photo of an actual black board with the title written on it. Either that or an illustrator can mimic the effect using traditional or digital tools. I like the concept of a black board but I think even you can admit that it needs a little bit of work.

Regardless, it's a great idea and one worth pursuing.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Thanks Malo, and yes, I'd be the FIRST to admit it needs work!
I'm going to start looking into angles and such in my own classroom.  The only problem is that many schools, including mine have actually moved to whiteboards instead of black or green boards.  However, I'll take a few shots and see how they look.
I might only be able to change the Kindle cover, though, as changing the print cover would probably be cost-prohibitive.  But it's definitely something that I am keeping in mind for future books.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Learn me good, I just read your sig line and I am still laughing.  That is funny.  I lived in West Ft Worth and worked in Dallas years ago.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

MR, you've been on the boards THIS long, and you're just NOW reading my sig line??  

I grew up in Arlington, went to school in Ft Worth (east), and now work in Dallas.  So it sounds like we've traversed plenty of the same geography.  BTW, I think your new cover is pretty cool.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> MR, you've been on the boards THIS long, and you're just NOW reading my sig line??
> 
> I grew up in Arlington, went to school in Ft Worth (east), and now work in Dallas. So it sounds like we've traversed plenty of the same geography. BTW, I think your new cover is pretty cool.


Yours is perfect, A chalk board for a teacher. No, I have read your sig line before, but I wanted to draw attention to it for you. lol Its hillarious. I read another great sig line last night.

"The alcohol hit Mark Willis harder than the cab that killed his girlfriend Monica, but she was pushed, and now Mark is being chased, just not only by another glass"
From: Time in a Bottle



MaloCS said:


> M.R. Mathias,
> 
> I think you're missing the spirit of the posts in this thread. It has been stated many times that there are always exceptions to the rule but these exceptions are just that, exceptions. The rule has been forged because the rule has been proven to be right more times then it's wrong. It's just the way it is.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I didn't make any of those. I made the others in my sig and the banner, but not those four covers. If I could do the things you mentioned I might, but I am not that good with this stuff yet. (Gimp2) I will probably trust someone like Konraths guy, but only when its time to do the three at once so they are consistant and I can get a pkg deal. $300 a cover is far too steep... lol Help me sell more books Joe so I can afford your guy! 

As for The Royal Dragoneers. That sheild design will be in brushed stainless on one cover, polished gold on another, as the series progresses, other finishes as well. But all with the sheild exactly where it is on that cover. Thanks for the compliment on the other ones.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> The only problem is that many schools, including mine have actually moved to whiteboards instead of black or green boards. However, I'll take a few shots and see how they look.


I always figured that's why you didn't do it in the first place. It's been a long time since I've seen a real chalkboard in a classroom. Too bad. I liked them!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Seriously, a good cover doesn't need to cost oodles. I think Ronnell's rate is highly reasonable and his covers are fantastic... already recommended him to at least one friend!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Seriously, a good cover doesn't need to cost oodles. I think Ronnell's rate is highly reasonable and his covers are fantastic... already recommended him to at least one friend!


Ronnells covers are great, but he ignored me when I asked him for help with a map issue. So I went with [email protected]


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

*Folks*

I have a question: how do you know if your cover looks professional enough?
I'm a writer, but I dabble in art. I'd love to share tips with fellow authors, but I'm not sure if my covers fit into that professional realm you guys are discussing.

Do let me know if I can help in any way-or if you have advice for improving my own covers, by all means, please advise.

_Thanks,
HL
_


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> *Folks*
> 
> I have a question: how do you know if your cover looks professional enough?
> I'm a writer, but I dabble in art. I'd love to share tips with fellow authors, but I'm not sure if my covers fit into that professional realm you guys are discussing.
> ...


Nice sig line. Can you do fantasy ie: Swords and Dragons, maybe looming in from behind the title and very subtle?

I need a bad to the bone Jester for my short story anthology cover. That is the only thing I might buy any time soon. _The King of Fools_ is the name of the anthologies title story. So _The King of Fools_ aka the Lunatic Fringe has to be on the cover.


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

[quote author=M.R. Mathias ] Nice sig line. [/quote]

Thanks, MR!

[quote author=M.R. Mathias ]
Can you do fantasy ie: Swords and Dragons, maybe looming in from behind the title and very subtle? 
[/quote]

Can do, especially for a fellow Louisiana native. I've been in California for ten years, but I'm originally from the Hammond area.

Send me a private message with the details of what you need, and I'll see what I can do.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> *Folks*
> 
> I have a question: how do you know if your cover looks professional enough?
> I'm a writer, but I dabble in art. I'd love to share tips with fellow authors, but I'm not sure if my covers fit into that professional realm you guys are discussing.
> ...


HL Arledge,

I think you're the exception to the rule. In my opinion all of your covers are very nice. Great work.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> HL Arledge,
> 
> I think you're the exception to the rule. In my opinion all of your covers are very nice. Great work.


Agreed!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> HL Arledge,
> 
> I think you're the exception to the rule. In my opinion all of your covers are very nice. Great work.


True, but as a heads-up, HL, the link on your sig image takes me to an Amazon error screen.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> *Folks*
> 
> I have a question: how do you know if your cover looks professional enough?
> I'm a writer, but I dabble in art. I'd love to share tips with fellow authors, but I'm not sure if my covers fit into that professional realm you guys are discussing.
> ...


 No lack in professional looks. Some may look like porno covers, but very professional.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Side note. I've talked to some who had their books traditionally published. They had no control over their covers.
THEY HATED THE COVERS GIVEN THEM BY THE PUBLISHER.
the most common complaint..."It has nothing to do with the content of the book."


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

davethedc said:


> No lack in professional looks. Some may look like porno covers, but very professional.


That made me laugh!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Wow, this thread is really steaming ahead... hard to keep up at times!


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks, Everyone.

...and Dave, I get that all the time. Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?

Also, is anyone else seeing the error screen MaloCS is getting? If so, please let me know.

Thanks again,
HL


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Thanks, Everyone.
> 
> ...and Dave, I get that all the time. Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?
> 
> ...


I see it. I'm wondering if you're directing us to a link that you can see because you're logged in to Amazon somehow? At any rate, it's an Amazon error that the page is not found.


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## ecaggiani (Sep 7, 2010)

I did my own covers in Photoshop for "Tracks and Horizons", and also for one of my dad's novels called "The Engineering of a Fraud" (in Spanish), which is a "perfect crime" type story involving very technical details.

















They look better when printed I think. My dad is happy with them, and though I think I could probably get a much better result from a true pro, these are "good enough" for now since we are just starting out.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Umm... I reported the error screen. Not sure where you get MaloCS out of CraigInTwinCities!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

robertduperre said:


> KC, I think your cover for The Kinshield Legacy is fantastic. Love it...


I have to agree - I saw that cover and thought it was everything professional from the thumbnail... now I'm going to have to look at it up close .

Paul


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

HL Arledge said:


> Also, is anyone else seeing the error screen MaloCS is getting? If so, please let me know.


Gefinitely getting the error screen. Make sure you are logged out of Amazon and try it. Are you linking to your author page? A search results page?

Betsy


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> I have to agree - I saw that cover and thought it was everything professional from the thumbnail... now I'm going to have to look at it up close .


Thanks! It's an RDP original!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

I looked at the cover and I think it's an overall winner, some things I might have done differently but that's a matter of _taste_ and believe me it's not a lot that I'd change. It's got that archaic feel without being cliche` (they didn't use the Papyrus font!  )


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Also, is anyone else seeing the error screen MaloCS is getting? If so, please let me know.


I don't get an error screen when clicking on your link. It takes me to your Amazon page. This is where I saw the larger versions of your covers.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

HL Arledge said:


> Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?


Yes.


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

davethedc said:


> Side note. I've talked to some who had their books traditionally published. They had no control over their covers.
> THEY HATED THE COVERS GIVEN THEM BY THE PUBLISHER.
> the most common complaint..."It has nothing to do with the content of the book."


I've heard of authors who CRIED in frustration when they saw the cover their publisher gave them.

When Five Star (an imprint of Gale) published my first novel, I was lucky. The artist worked closely with me -- he asked for detailed descriptions of the characters, the mood of the book, other covers I liked, etc. His cover accurately depicted my four main characters. But I was unusually lucky; with most publishers, the author has no control over the cover. That's one advantage of being indie!


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?


Sexy covers can be hard to do right.

My novel Flaming Dove has a pretty sexy cover, but I asked the artist to keep it on the right side of tasteful. Hopefully it conveys just a hint of sexiness; not too much to turn off female readers. (The book is PG-13sh... nothing too sexy in the actual novel.)

I think it depends on the genre. Flaming Dove is paranormal fantasy; many novels in that genre have sexy girls on the covers. Consider authors like Patricia Briggs or Kim Harrison.

Most of your covers look all right to me; maybe the one on the very right (donkey tattoo) could be toned down a bit.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Daniel Arenson said:


> I've heard of authors who CRIED in frustration when they saw the cover their publisher gave them.


That's certainly got to be a brutal slap in the face - unless they (the publishers) have fleeced your pockets with a large wad of cash and a good royalty contract (you may now commence laughing hard).

I often wonder if the 'unknowns' are handed over to trainee artists/compositors/monkeys and they come up with a cover based on half of the synopsis.

Okay, I'm sure it's not that bad but sometimes I look at covers in the book shops and wonder just what horrible thing the author did to displease the publisher.

Paul.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?


Probably. I wouldn't have looked at the blurb had I just seen the cover in the list of results for a search. There are two clothed people looking at a sexy naked chick who's posing for the artist/camera. I'd have thought


Spoiler



porn


, not mystery.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Just a 'tip' I wanted to hand over as well for those doing their covers,  quite often you need to add a small effect into the page (such as an outburst/highlight/bordering-on-text) and the trick can frequently be such that you have to balance it between being 'not there' and 'too obvious';  sounds stupid but effectively you have to make it that the viewer of the cover doesn't even realise you've put it there, it's invisible to their eye - yet without it things look wrong.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

BTW, MrPLD, I liked your old banner better. The text in the beige area is really tough to read. JMO.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

kcmay said:


> BTW, MrPLD, I liked your old banner better. The text in the beige area is really tough to read. JMO.


I agree,it's a bit of a tricky beast - at higher resolutions it comes out very nicely but when you crunch it down to banner size a lot of the defining detail gets lost. I'll be rotating my banners on a regular basis so you can probably anticipate to see another one tomorrow


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

HL Arledge said:


> Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?
> 
> Also, is anyone else seeing the error screen


No error screen here, it takes me to a listing of your books on Amazon. And I'm logged in on my account on Amazon, so it's not an issue of my already being logged in or not.

As for the covers, I'm not so sure about the possible porno aspect or not, but I'll go against the praise and say they're way too busy for my tastes. Too many words. IMO, they should just have the title, author, maybe a subtitle and that's all.

And you're seriously charging 99 cents for a FIRST CHAPTER PREVIEW? Seriously? Man. I won't even go into what's wrong with that...


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## CDChristian (Jun 4, 2010)

There's so many great points made in this thread that if I replied to all of them, we'd be here for hours. 

I agree with the OP in regards to some of the covers and yet I also completely understand the financial constraints that prevent many indie writers from hiring out an artist. My best advice has already been mentioned earlier, but I strongly suggest those who have/want to design their own covers to study the traditional covers in their genre or covers in general. I love this site for all the exquisite covers showcased:

http://bookcoverarchive.com/

It's been a great place for me to study and learn. Also, royalty-free image sites are awesome! My covers are all royalty-free images. (I use different angles/aspects to give it my own flavor.) DeviantArt is another great place. I bought three base images there from highly-talented artists for some future project work. It's definitely more expensive than going the royalty-free image route, but it's still a viable option for many.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Thanks, Everyone.
> 
> ...and Dave, I get that all the time. Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?
> 
> ...


I think your covers convey books that are written exclusively for men, and that the female characters are all overly sexualized. If that is true, and your target market is men that want to read about oversexed women, then the covers are perfectly fine. If you want to attact female readers, the covers will turn women off. I wouldn't pick up one of your books if I saw it sitting on a shelf. And I certainly wouldn't take it to work with me to read (unless it was on my Kindle...in which case my boss wouldn't see the cover and I wouldn't get fired  )


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## plumboz (Sep 24, 2009)

lanfearl said:


> I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.
> 
> I also know that the quality of the writing has nothing to do with the cover, but when you are an indie author who is trying to get your name out there... people are going to look at your cover and laugh.


Wouldn't it be nice to be able to make that sort of investment? But chances of any sort of ROI on that kind of financial layout are slim to none for most of us indie authors, no matter how good the material is inside. Judge by the cover all you want. You'll end up with a lot of miserably written dreck along with the good stuff and you'll dismiss some worthwhile stuff for a very poor reason along the way. It's up to you. Nothing wrong with being attracted to a nice cover (like a pretty girl), but it's a lousy basis for making decisions about relationships, which is what the reader/writer thing is all about.

Some of the best books I've read were used hardbacks with no dust jackets. Just the title and author on the spine. I don't recall ever flipping back to the cover on any book to remind me why I was enjoying it (or thinking seriously of taking it to the used book store for credit).


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

[quote author=Steph H ]
You're seriously charging 99 cents for a FIRST CHAPTER PREVIEW? Seriously? Man. I won't even go into what's wrong with that...
[/quote]

Sadly, I agree. That was the first item I added, planning to list it as free. I didn't realize until I got ready to set the price that Amazon won't allow anything lower than 99. I was about to pull it, then I got a positive review, so what do you do?


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Do you think I'm losing female readers because of it?


I don't think so. If your covers accurately depict the story then the book itself may not be that appealing to women. Just from basic life experience I can attest to the fact that most women do not like the same types of entertainment as men and vice versa. That doesn't mean there isn't a crossover but by and large women have different tastes then men and men have different tastes then women.

My wife thinks I'm crazy because of my appreciation for The Three Stooges and the bathroom scene in Dumb and Dumber. She doesn't understand why I find that type of entrtainement so humorous. Conversely, I don't understand her fascination with The Bachelor. Regardless, there are plenty of entertainment activities that we both love equally so in the end it all works out.

I think you have to ask yourself what your target audience is and design a book cover that speaks to them. The women that enjoy your genre will appreciate the covers if the covers are representative of the story. If the covers have nothing to do with your story and were created purely to take advantage of the "sex sells" premise then I think you might be turning off men as well as women.

Regardless, I like your cover designs. When I look at them I immediately get the feeling of pulp fiction from the 1950s which is a genre I like. Just based off of your covers I added a few of your titles to my list and plan to read them in the near future. At least in my case, your cover designs did what they were designed to do; spark enough interest for me to buy one of your titles.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Learnmegood said:


> I have read all of these cover posts with interest, because my cover for Learn Me Good is certainly amateur. I mean, I made it using MS Powerpoint. But my story doesn't involve fantastical creatures, or mystery, or danger, or espionage, or cats and dogs living together -- mass hysteria!! It's just a simple tale of a teacher's experiences in the classroom.
> 
> However, I'm open to suggestions if anyone would like to offer them. Any thoughts on 1) whether my cover really NEEDS to be spiced up, or 2) what would make it spicier? (Aside from having a half-orc, vampire, firefly, or martini eating one of my kids?)


I didn't like your cover AT ALL when I first saw it. I thought maybe it was a children's book at first. After reading the book...it fits the book. In an odd way, but it fits. I "get" the cover after reading it. You could probably make it a more obvious chalkboard with an eraser and chalk by way of helpful images. The simplicity is nice, but it could use a hint of imagery to really bring home the "School" and "teacher" point.

BTW, I really enjoyed the book.

And don't take my word for cover work. Many people here have mentioned they like certain covers. I tend to dislike those covers. For example, I like Mr. Mathias' new cover and someone else said they didn't. His old covers are okay, nothing special--but they don't turn me away, which is probably good. Some people will be bothered by the simplicity. I think he could have picked a better, clearer font....the point is it really is very subjective. I think many of us have improved covers over time but that doesn't mean everyone will love them!!!


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> I like your cover designs. When I look at them I immediately get the feeling of pulp fiction from the 1950s which is a genre I like. Just based off of your covers I added a few of your titles to my list and plan to read them in the near future. At least in my case, your cover designs did what they were designed to do; spark enough interest for me to buy one of your titles.


Thanks, MaloCS!

I'm think now that I will "tone down" the Donkey Tattoo, because there is no scene where the main characters see the client completely naked seemingly depicted on the cover, but the other covers depict exactly what is found in the story.


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Sadly, I agree. That was the first item I added, planning to list it as free. I didn't realize until I got ready to set the price that Amazon won't allow anything lower than 99. I was about to pull it, then I got a positive review, so what do you do?


Unpublish and put the free first chapter on your website or blog. Charging for a sample is just plain wrong.


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## anaconda (Jul 16, 2010)

Who is Ronnell, and how do I get in touch with he/she?

Thanks,

Dave


BTackitt said:


> Also, if you browse through the Writer's corner, we have 2 or 3 cover artists who are prducing FANTABULOUS work for CHEAP flat rates so that they can build portfolios. I know Ronnell is only charging $50 for unique covers, and I'm pretty sure there was someone else who was equally inexpensive. Check their work, it's really quite good.
> 
> Oh.. and LK is probably talking about me... I totally browse/buy books by cover attraction first.
> 
> It's like Dating in my book.. You want to look good for a first date, no matter how wonderful you are on the inside, if someone is not initially physically attracted to your outside, how do you expect them to stay around long enough to find out how hawt you are on the inside?


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

RonnellDPorter


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Wow I just noticed DavidRM's cover for "The Summoning Fire" and I think it is WONDERFUL! Whoever did it, professional or not, its *Great* to me.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Ironic note: it looks like I've finally sold a book on B&N.... and it's the one that doesn't have a cover. (Must remember to write Marc about that lack of cover.)

Camille


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

I loved the picture on my original cover, but it didn't look that professional, and it didn't give you any idea what the book was about.  I did keep it for the back cover when I changed it.  (because there's a story behind it)  I think the cover Ronnell made for me was much more professional looking and more appropriate.  I got a lot better response out of it, too.  When asking reviewers to look at the book, I went from 50% wanting to read it to about 90% wanting to read it.  I think the cover had a lot to do with that.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

anaconda said:


> Who is Ronnell, and how do I get in touch with he/she?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave


Here's his website with some of the covers he's done. I think his contact information is on there too. http://ronnelldporter.blogspot.com/p/book-cover-design.html


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Yes.


Re: Female readers HL covers: - I wouldn't be tempted to click on them. They appear to be erotica or possibly very old fashioned pulp that focuses more on the a guy who has women clinging to him constantly rather than the mystery. I do read pulp mysteries now and then, but a lot of the covers are turn-offs and if I read a sample and think the male stuff is going to be over the top, I'm not going to read it. By over the top, I don't mean Tough Guy fiction--I read a lot of Robert Crais, Lee Child, Steve Hamilton. They all write 'tough guys' but a lot of it is how the character treats the women in the stories and more importantly who are the women in the stories. If they are all cardboard pieces there for the convenience of making the guy look good (or chasing after the guy because he's sooooo great) that isn't my thing.

Not saying the books are that way, but if you're after a female audience in general...it's possible you're missing some elements that might attract us. Or you're putting elements in that detract us. 

But I've said before--I tend to dislike covers others think are fabulous...and like some of the more simple ones. So if you're really thinking of changing, do some more research/polling!

Maria


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I do my own covers despite offers from pros to do some for me (I am loved), because I believe (foolishly, but stubbornly), that the cover should be an organic extension of the work and only the author can perpetrate the crime. I did get a kick out of the title to this thread, which I read (being from Brooklyn), "Yous Guys gotta Get betta covers."   Then I realized that it was just a hoot and holler to get us to click. I thought that I'd find better covers here. At least some better stained glass platitudes. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

[quote author=MariaESchneider]
Re: Female readers HL covers: - I wouldn't be tempted to click on them. If they are all cardboard pieces there for the convenience of making the guy look good (or chasing after the guy because he's sooooo great) that isn't my thing.

Not saying the books are that way, but if you're after a female audience in general...it's possible you're missing some elements that might attract us. Or you're putting elements in that detract us. 

But I've said before--I tend to dislike covers others think are fabulous...and like some of the more simple ones. So if you're really thinking of changing, do some more research/polling!

[/quote]

Thanks, Maria.

I do like dark Noir-ish settings, but I assure you my women are strong and even in the short stories they're well-rounded. I am very character-driven and anti-cardboard. That said, what how do I deliver images that communicate that without losing the dark, hard-boiled feel of the story?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

HL Arledge said:


> Thanks, Maria.
> 
> I do like dark Noir-ish settings, but I assure you my women are strong and even in the short stories they're well-rounded. I am very character-driven and anti-cardboard. That said, what how do I deliver images that communicate that without losing the dark, hard-boiled feel of the story?


Part of the problem (for me) is that there are too many of them using females. There are two in particular that stood out as 'no way" and you can probably figure out which ones--they both feature the most nudity. (The girl in the Canister or something like that--the problem is that with all the other covers there, that one looks like a nude lady curled up. It doesn't matter if she is dead or what, take the whole sig line as a whole and there's simply too much female exposure going on and it give the whole line a certain feel.) The last one in the list is the anchor that sinks the entire boat--waaaay over the top for my tastes and brings all the other covers down into the murk with it. One look at that and I make a bunch of assumptions about the other ones without ever seeing them full-sized. And the point is I will never click on them to see if they are full-sized...so long as the overall imagery is what it is.

The one with the lady with the long gloves is a pretty classic pulp and it by itself wouldn't bother me at all--I'd see "pulp" and have a pretty good idea that it was mystery and possibly the type. The two more modern ones...those could go either way. If you wanted to get *my* attention, put them in blue jeans. Heels are okay, although honestly I've never tried to shoot someone while wearing heels..but I digress. The women can be sexy, but they cannot shout sex or come hither. The two contemporary shots could go either way, but as I said, with a couple of the covers in there, it pulls them very definitely into the "forget it" category.

Hope that makes some sense. There are other pulp images that might work besides women--doves, cigarettes, smoking gun, bullet holes, cloaked figures.

M


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

To: HL Arledge, my OpOnion... 

Nude figures don't bother me, I've drawn and painted enough of them in my day. But they don't usually appear in those kind of poses on the covers (or pages) of books I choose to read.

The crouching figure in the _Canister _ is intriguing, especially given the title. But maybe for female readers, she can use a breast reduction. It's that huge hanging boob that pushes it over, I think. Angling the body a bit or moving an arm back a couple inches can also fix that. (If you do your own photos, anyway.)

The donkey tattoo...if you want to tone it down, just zoom in on the body part with the tattoo. The girl herself isn't over the top, but that men's magazine model pose and come hither smirk maybe gives it a bit too much sexuality for what you're trying to convey--again, unless erotica is a big part of your story. Focusing on the hip tattoo from that POV, however, part of the midsection, curve of buttock, and top of thigh is sexy and still maintains some classiness.

I think if you're attracting the noir crowd fixated on T&A, though, they work as is.

What I truly dislike is your use of text color and clutter, as a few others have mentioned. It makes most of them a mess, like one of those marketing ads that try to cram as much in to as little space as possible, or a magazine cover. If you were presenting an anthology with all these short stories in it, having a bit more text is something you can get away with. But try to cut the clutter. (That's what the inside of the book is for.) And while your banner is laid out very well, it's waaaay too busy. Unclutter the background. The book covers get lost on the bricks. Lighten and desaturate a bit so it fades enough to pop the text and covers you put on top.

My two cents.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Wow, how did I miss this thread?

There's a lot of great advice on here.  I agree, you do need to look as professional as you can as an indie author.  But I also know what it's like to have NO pennies to rub together to pay anyone to do anything.  I'm lucky, I design a lot of things for my business, was an art major, and have programs like Illustrator and Photoshop on my computer.  I was able to create a (hopefully good) cover myself.  But some indies just *can't* do it themselves.

This is where asking a student works great.  I love that idea.  Or, hold a contest on here, and the winner gets their first chapter stuck on at the end of your book for advertising.  There are things you can do to get a decent cover, without spending money.

I also totally support Gimp and Inkscape.  Free programs that are just about as good as Photoshop and Illustrator.  If you are persistent, you can create a decent cover.  The thing I would suggest to you all trying to do your own cover, don't just design one and stop.  Make ten different covers, and pick your favorite.  Ten TOTALLY different covers... don't just change the font.  This will stretch your mind and creativity, and you'll be amazed at what you can accomplish by stretching these things.  And I'll bet your favorite one won't be the first one you made.

I don't think you have to be a graphic designer to create a great cover.  I've seen some great indie covers that were not professionally done.  (But, yes, I've seen some indie covers that need work as well.)  Some of this is subjective too.

Vicki


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

Gimp is awesome.  Photo Filtre is also really good.  BTW, Vicki, I love your cover.


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## ecaggiani (Sep 7, 2010)

It's all what you're used to. I tried Gimp a few years back and hated it, but I was already too familiar with Photoshop. So for me, I gotta have Photoshop.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Thanks, Maria.
> 
> I do like dark Noir-ish settings, but I assure you my women are strong and even in the short stories they're well-rounded. I am very character-driven and anti-cardboard. That said, what how do I deliver images that communicate that without losing the dark, hard-boiled feel of the story?


As a female who likes hard boiled mysteries, I have to say I disagree with with some of what is said. Of the covers in your sig, only the last one looks like porn to me. The one with the curled up body actually looks more mainstream to me. Bimbos with guns, imho, are par for the course.

But I agree that you could achieve the same dark feel with less skin, and the covers might be more intriguing. I'd also go for much larger text. Hard-boiled is a screamer text genre - like thrillers. Go look at the covers of the best sellers in the genre. A lot of them are almost all text - maybe with a location, or a small figure.

In some ways, I myself would be immediately attracted toward something like that one where the frame is filled by the curled up naked woman - because it's such a close up, it's more stylized and fine arty. Therefore it's kind of symbolic like the ones with a city scape for the cover, but different at the same time, and more personal (but imho not sexual). I would want, however, the design on something like that to be dominated by text. (And I can't say for sure this would work in reality the way it works in my imagination....)

I think what I like about that one is that is it both stylized and figurative. It can be a very interesting combination, but it might require a real artist to pull it off.

Camille


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I'll be completely honest: I thought they were erotica books when I saw them all together. Make of that what you will.

David Dalglish


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> I'll be completely honest: I thought they were erotica books when I saw them all together. Make of that what you will.


Yes, but did you run out and buy them?


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## SueCampbell (Sep 28, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I never really looked at that book for the longest time because neither the cover nor the title intrigued me...Betsy


Funny. This series of covers has been much touted in the design community and received several awards!


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm going to run out and buy one as soon as I finish my current read. The pulp covers are awesome and they do a great job of garnering a reaction.

Think about it, whether you like his covers or not we are all sitting here talking about them. This, my friends, is marketing at work. Like it or not, his pulpy covers have sparked a wide range of emotions and more then likely, benefit his sales rather then hurt them.

An instructor I had way back in art school once told me, "the goal of art is to evoke some sort of emotion. Whether that emotion is positive or negative it's still an emotion and the artist was successful. On the other hand, the worst reaction an artist can receive is indifference."

HL's book covers are successful and the proof is right here in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, we're talking about them partly because he asked and partly because this is a thread about covers.  That doesn't make them good, just as 'garnering a reaction' doesn't make the reaction necessarily a good reaction or make the covers successful.  "Any publicity is good publicity" is very much a misnomer, IMO.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

MaloCS said:


> I'm going to run out and buy one as soon as I finish my current read. The pulp covers are awesome and they do a great job of garnering a reaction.
> 
> Think about it, whether you like his covers or not we are all sitting here talking about them. This, my friends, is marketing at work. Like it or not, his pulpy covers have sparked a wide range of emotions and more then likely, benefit his sales rather then hurt them.
> 
> ...


Uh, no. I only talked about them because he asked a specific question for women, of which I happen to be one. I did *not* buy the books and normally would not have just babbled on about the covers except he asked a question. In reality, it evoked a less than a second response when I saw them and it was a negative response. I would have moved on without ever even a second glance had he not asked a specific question.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

His covers are good. I just see a bunch of people hating on him because of the subject matter.

Say what you will but HL's covers are light years ahead of what most of the folks on this board are putting out there. Just because you don't like the subject doesn't mean its not done well.

Lol good grief!!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

That's your opinion.  You're entitled to it.  I'm entitled to mine, which differs from yours.


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## MaloCS (Sep 22, 2010)

I thought I left all the hate and jealousy behind at the art forums I used to frequent.

Additionally, I beg to differ about the only reason it's being discussed is because he posted in this thread. There are many submitting and examples of book covers in this thread but HL's covers are the only ones garnering this much interest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

SueCampbell said:


> Funny. This series of covers has been much touted in the design community and received several awards!


I don't doubt it. I'm just one person who does not believe she is the final barometer on what is good. It was just my personal reaction to the covers. 

Betsy


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> His covers are good. I just see a bunch of people hating on him because of the subject matter.


I don't think anyone's hating on him. He asked a question, people assumed he wanted honest answers. If he wanted fanboi answers only, he shoulda said!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> I thought I left all the hate and jealousy behind at the art forums I used to frequent.
> 
> Additionally, I beg to differ about the only reason it's being discussed is because he posted in this thread. There are many submitting and examples of book covers in this thread but HL's covers are the only ones garnering this much interest.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We seem to be talking about different things. You are talking about art. The rest of us are talking about a marketing tool known as a book cover.  There are two very different things with two very different goals. HL asked for an opinion about his book covers specifically, therefore, being the helpful folks that we all are, we offered him our opinions. Which is something we tend to do for anyone that asks specifically about their bookcovers.

Saying something does not make a good marketing tool for a specific demographic (in this case, women readers) is not the same thing as "hating and jealousy."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy putting on her moderator's hat here.

I haven't seen any hate or jealousy on anyone in this thread. Only constructive criticism in response to specific questions. In HL's case, he asked if the covers would lose him female readers. Several have responded with specific comments both positive and negative. If HL is bothered by the criticism, or feels the need to respond, he seems perfectly capable of doing so, in my opinion.

Let's move on with what has been a very interesting, popular and instructive discussion, please.

Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> Wow I just noticed DavidRM's cover for "The Summoning Fire" and I think it is WONDERFUL! Whoever did it, professional or not, its *Great* to me.












Yup, Its bad to the bone.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

HL Arledge said:


> Thanks, Maria.
> 
> I do like dark Noir-ish settings, but I assure you my women are strong and even in the short stories they're well-rounded. I am very character-driven and anti-cardboard. That said, what how do I deliver images that communicate that without losing the dark, hard-boiled feel of the story?


That's a tough one. You may not be able to please everyone. If your target audience is the male pulp fiction reader, I'd say you're spot on. My gut reaction to them is that they're stories about men objectifying women. I don't mean that to sound all bra-burny, but they really do give me that feeling. If I saw them online or in a store, I would think these were gun-toting soft porn. I would not consider them as something I'd want to buy. But, again, I'm probably not your audience at all either.


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> I thought I left all the hate and jealousy behind at the art forums I used to frequent.
> 
> Additionally, I beg to differ about the only reason it's being discussed is because he posted in this thread. There are many submitting and examples of book covers in this thread but HL's covers are the only ones garnering this much interest.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He ASKED for feedback. I also got no impression he was being flamed or hated on and apologize if any feedback or suggestions I made seemed "hateful". Disliking someone's typography or layouts isn't the same as hating that person.

I'm moving on now. Sorry, Betsy.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks, Terry!

I want to add to my previous post that I have been impressed with the "professionalism" of the authors posting in this thread.  And by that I mean y'all's approach to your craft and the willingness to put your covers out there for comment and then receiving the comments well.  As an artist who has been part of a critique group, it's difficult to do.

Carry on!

Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> I thought I left all the hate and jealousy behind at the art forums I used to frequent.
> 
> Additionally, I beg to differ about the only reason it's being discussed is because he posted in this thread. There are many submitting and examples of book covers in this thread but HL's covers are the only ones garnering this much interest.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


His covers are great, but they are just the topic of the hour. Like 3 of 10 pages...

I am not a woman so I have no clue how the covers affect women, but as a tattoo covered outlaw type of guy, I think they rock. Read the first seven pages of the thread too. There are several other covers both praised and trashed.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

MaloCS said:


> His covers are good. I just see a bunch of people hating on him because of the subject matter.


Ummmmm, while I disagree with those who don't like his covers, I really don't see this at ALL. Nobody has criticized his subject matter - or even implied criticism. They've just said "with those covers, I would assume that they would have subject matter I don't like" which is exactly the sort of help you need for a cover.

The question is only whether the covers actually _reflect_ the subject matter - and in particular do they reflect it for the people who are his audience. For instance, if they are hard-boiled mysteries, then if audiences who don't like anything hard-boiled are turned off by the covers, it doesn't matter. The question there is whether some of those who DO like that kind of story would misjudge the kind of story it is.

Camille


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Again, I think it's for HL to comment on the response to his covers, and he's not on line right now.  Any other discussion on approaches to covers?  Covers you tried for a book and decided it just didn't work?  I know that Joe Konrath and Lee Goldberg did some experiments with different covers and proved pretty convincingly (to me anyway) that covers DO make a difference.

Betsy


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

There is also something to be said about "less is more" when it comes to covers.

It's one thing if a reader is ambivalent about your cover. But if you're losing sales by turning off potential readers, rethink it.

The thing I find most unprofessional about many newbie covers isn't the central image. Most of those are fine. But the font and the layout need work.

The font often looks stuck on the picture, rather than part of the picture. This is an easy way to spot a self-pubbed cover. The artist added text on top of a picture, rather than using layers. I've sat with my artist while he's done my covers, and the title and author name fonts are never one layer. He always uses effects to make them blend, match, and fit the artwork.

Layout is where the words appear on the cover. Often it takes an artist's eye to place them so they look like they naturally belong there. 

Sometimes you can look at a cover, not be able to articulate exactly what's wrong with it, but know that something is missing. It's like this for the overwhelming majority of newbie covers.

I really can't stress how important a cover is, and how much it directly relates to sales. Even when the cover is professionally designed, it should be redone if you aren't getting the desired effect from it. I've had some of my covers completely redone five times, and will probably continue to tweak a few of them.

As the cover improves, the sales improve. See for yourself.

Something else to keep in mind that our opinions really don't carry much weight, because we're writers.

Find a graphic artist. Show them your cover. Then you'll get a truer opinion of if it works or not. We're not professional artists, our opinions are subjective and uniformed and often defensive. Go to a pro.

Lots of people dabble in art, and there are some talented amateurs. But a pro is someone who makes their living as an artist. That means a lot.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Moving on to pick on another author (remember, I offered myself up for criticism)


I like your covers, T.L. Although it's a little hard to read the title in the thumbnails, they have kind of a spooky/dreamy [that's hard to do at the same time!] quality that makes me want to check them out further just based on the image. If I were to suggest anything, it would be to make the title font bigger/clearer and the author font smaller/clearer, so they'd be easier to read in thumbnail size (like forum thumbnail, not Amazon page thumbnail).

I guess that brings up a point, which I think may have been raised before -- what's more important, the book title or the book author? I would think the title name should be bigger than the author name, but then again if you're making a 'brand', maybe it's the author name? I dunno.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Did David actually OFFER his cover up for criticism or was it just that a couple of people said they liked it...I don't think it's fair to start critiquing someone's covers who hasn't offered them up for such.  If DavidRM chimes in and says OK, then, well, OK.

TL, why don't you post your cover in a larger size and tell us why you think it works.


Betsy


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Half-Orc said:


> I'll be completely honest: I thought they were erotica books when I saw them all together. Make of that what you will.
> 
> David Dalglish


David, this wasn't addressed to anyone, so I wanted to be sure... Are you talking about Learn Me Good? Because I get that a lot...

  

Maria, thanks for your earlier reply. I'm glad you gave it a chance even after being underwhelmed by the cover. It DOES fit, but it COULD be improved. No doubt about it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Related thread going on:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,37694.msg675765.html#msg675765

Betsy


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm only going to leave this up for a few minutes, but here's a sneak peek at the prototype cover for my next book:









The artist is tweaking it for me to fit the main character in my book -- hair color, tattoo -- but isn't it gorgeous?

Then my graphics designer will go to town on presentation as far as fonts, etc.

Yes, it costs more than doing it myself. At the rate I sell books, it will take some time to recover the costs. But I think it's worth it.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Wow.  That IS impressive, LK.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

I *love* that art, LK! Can't wait to see the finished version! Wow!


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Jessica Billings said:


> I *love* that art, LK! Can't wait to see the finished version! Wow!


LMF'nAO

Edited to say: It was a blank space when I posted the _LMF'nAO_

Now its there and it looks pretty cool. I really dig the chick in the background. Deep!


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

thx everybody. I'm pretty excited about it! 

(aside: Jessica, thank you so much for the wonderful review)

TL -- I love the colors and composition of your covers. I see what you mean about the first one not being quite as wonderful as the second. 

I wish there was a way to get better definition of the face behind the tree. I didn't even realize that's what it was till I saw it big like that.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

There's a face behind the tree?  Scrolling back to look...(did I make it too small, TL?)

Great image, LK!

Betsy


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

In the first make it say [img height=250] and see what that does. Raise and lower the number until you are happy.

Betsy did it while I was posting!


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> thx everybody. I'm pretty excited about it!
> 
> (aside: Jessica, thank you so much for the wonderful review)
> 
> ...


(LK: I even mentioned it on facebook to a friend because the raptors reminded me of her - she's a huge bird lover and I thought she'd enjoy the story)

OH, I finally see the face after staring at it for a good minute or two. I definitely would not have noticed that if you guys hadn't pointed it out. Very cool.


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## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Betsy, thanks. Perfect.
> 
> Jessica - brain
> 
> ...


Sorry, was replying to LK and meant to write LK, but saw your initials and wrote TL instead.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There's a face behind the tree? Scrolling back to look...(did I make it too small, TL?)
> 
> Great image, LK!
> 
> Betsy


It took me a while to see it. I saw the finger and thought it was kind odd to have a big finger there, then I _finally_ saw the face.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, I guess I'll go out on a limb and expose my lousy taste - I've yet to see an indie cover that I'd consider bad.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Monique said:


> It took me a while to see it. I saw the finger and thought it was kind odd to have a big finger there, then I _finally_ saw the face.


I know, right? Now that I know it's there, I see it just fine. It's like those pictures in the dots...


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## Daniel Arenson (Apr 11, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> I'm only going to leave this up for a few minutes, but here's a sneak peek at the prototype cover for my next book:


WHOA! Who created that? AMAZING.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Well, I guess I'll go out on a limb and expose my lousy taste - I've yet to see an indie cover that I'd consider bad.


Despite your lousy taste, I just bought one of your books!


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## DavidRM (Sep 21, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> Wow I just noticed DavidRM's cover for "The Summoning Fire" and I think it is WONDERFUL! Whoever did it, professional or not, its *Great* to me.


Thank you!

The cover painting and layout were done by my brother, Don Michael, Jr. He called the painting End of Days (I, of course, Philistine that I am, call it "That painting of Reese...").

Don also did the cover for "Nostalgia" (see sig) and for another ebook that will be out soon. These two covers, though, weren't original paintings for the story. It kinda went the other way. 

-David


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Learnmegood said:


> David, this wasn't addressed to anyone, so I wanted to be sure... Are you talking about Learn Me Good? Because I get that a lot...
> 
> 
> 
> Maria, thanks for your earlier reply. I'm glad you gave it a chance even after being underwhelmed by the cover. It DOES fit, but it COULD be improved. No doubt about it.


The thing for me was I didn't realize it was a chalkboard with an eraser and chalk--the eraser and chalk on the bottom blended right into the Kindle outline--I think the chalk could be used more cleverly? Like held up as the words are finished? Really it was a matter of me completely missing them and thus...I missed the concept until I read the book.

It's a simple cover and generally I do like the more simple ones. --I read the sample and decided the writing was good enough to take a chance. And then I enjoyed it!


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Daniel Arenson said:


> WHOA! Who created that? AMAZING.


Thanks Daniel -- would you mind deleting the image from your comment? I only wanted to leave it up briefly.

I found it at Deviant Art.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I tried to post covers for my old "thief" versus my new one...but can't remember how the code goes and it didn't work.  In any case, I did the first cover myself and then had a pro do the current one.  Sales are pretty much the same.    I don't think it means a whole lot either way.  It could be that neither cover was a big hit or it could be that cozy readers don't like the slight sci/fi element in the book (or a host of other reasons.)  Would a completely different cover help?  Possibly, but I'm going to focus on the next book for now...there's only so much time in the day so for right now, I'm focused on the next book, next cover.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Monique said:


> Despite your lousy taste, I just bought one of your books!


Thanks, Monique. It's reassuring that you weren't put-off by the tasteless cover.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

I have always done my own covers. The artwork is done on masonboard with acrylic paint--I've learned a lot about designing cover art since I did the first one. I was going for a kind of 'pulp' feel in the first 2 covers--the third one is more of a traditional 'fantasy montage'. The fourth book's cover art is currently my avatar. 

My point is that sometimes cover art requirements are genre-specific. Fantasy books are expected to have depictions of scenes/characters/etc. --simple fantasy covers are not the norm. 

Other genres like crime/thriller/mysteries/etc. rarely have that same elaborate art on them. 
Sci/fi varies quite a bit also. I have been fortunate enough to witness first hand the original works of some of the greats--Whelan, Lee, Howe, Elmore...they all were non-electronic artists working with tangible materials--which means no 'undo' button. Their work is amazing--almost exclusively fantasy and sci/fi. 

I don't know what anyone here thinks of them, but booksellers like them. They are surprised when they hold one in their hands--(gee...this is a nice book!). They are quite beautiful in print. As thumbnails...well...maybe not.

One criticism of them is that one might assume they are children's books--but since half my readership in under twenty, I don't mind.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Monique said:


> It took me a while to see it. I saw the finger and thought it was kind odd to have a big finger there, then I _finally_ saw the face.


Ah, that finally clicked me in to the face. I thought the finger was part of a house and the rest was shadows....


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

At the risk of causing us all a fatal case of cover envy, I love the work of Sam Weber:


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Archer (the Bard) said:


> I have always done my own covers. The artwork is done on masonboard with acrylic paint--I've learned a lot about designing cover art since I did the first one. I was going for a kind of 'pulp' feel in the first 2 covers--the third one is more of a traditional 'fantasy montage'. The fourth book's cover art is currently my avatar.
> 
> My point is that sometimes cover art requirements are genre-specific. Fantasy books are expected to have depictions of scenes/characters/etc. --simple fantasy covers are not the norm.
> 
> ...


Your covers are gorgeous to me--large or small. And you are so right about genre. Cozy mysteries have their own rules/standards that are pretty different from thrillers...


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Archer (the Bard) said:


> One criticism of them is that one might assume they are children's books--but since half my readership in under twenty, I don't mind.


They seem to have a lot more money to burn than the rest of us... I was vastly richer when I was under 25 than I am now


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> At the risk of causing us all a fatal case of cover envy, I love the work of Sam Weber:


I read that when I was young and the cover was plain and just said _Enders Game_. It appears that he has made enough to get a good cover because that book is far, far older than the cover technology.

It's sort of incorrect because the technique Ender used in one of the smulations was to float feet first and fire over his boots, thus making his body harder to hit with the weapons. He should be flying at us feet first.

I started O. S. Card's fantasy series but stopped when book one didn't end. Something Earth??


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## plumboz (Sep 24, 2009)

There does seem to be some real interesting conversation going on here so I would like to see if ya'll have any thoughts about Boomerang's cover.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

I made this with Gimp2 Its the cover to my Y/A novel. Its been out a while. I wanted to make a spaceship but am not good enough to insert one.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

plumboz said:


> There does seem to be some real interesting conversation going on here so I would like to see if ya'll have any thoughts about Boomerang's cover.


I've always liked this one. In some ways I like the simplicity of all red, but I think I might like it better if the background were a cooler color so that the Title and boomerang pop more.

Camille


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

Well....I've done my own covers, using my own cat/dog images from years of shooting photos at shows. I use Photoshop...it's an old version but works well since I know how to use it finally! *s* And for nonfiction, my covers need to be pretty realistic. The most popular breeds are typical of this type of book (goldens, labs, classic tabbies or Siamese) unless it's specific to a particular kind of pet. *shrug*


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> I made this with Gimp2 Its the cover to my Y/A novel. Its been out a while. I wanted to make a spaceship but am not good enough to insert one.


Go to the istockphoto or dreamstime sites and find yourself a space ship - they offer high resolution sample images you can download with their watermark which will let you test it out first.

Paul.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

M.R. Mathias said:


> I made this with Gimp2 Its the cover to my Y/A novel. Its been out a while. I wanted to make a spaceship but am not good enough to insert one.


Are you asking for comments? If so, I think the title needs work. I would go for a taller font. (Look for one called "Narrow") Also, the space between "The" and "Aventurion" is bad, and I'd like to see Adventurion up higher (although if it were a taller font, it might do okay with the same baseline.) "The" doesn't need to be the same size, nor does it have to be centered above it - but I have no specific suggestions at the moment. (The image itself could be a little darker, imho, to contrast with the text.)

Camille


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> Are you asking for comments? If so, I think the title needs work. I would go for a taller font. (Look for one called "Narrow") Also, the space between "The" and "Aventurion" is bad, and I'd like to see Adventurion up higher (although if it were a taller font, it might do okay with the same baseline.) "The" doesn't need to be the same size, nor does it have to be centered above it - but I have no specific suggestions at the moment. (The image itself could be a little darker, imho, to contrast with the text.)
> 
> Camille


Nah, I was just showing it... It's been live at Barnes-n-Noble for a while like this... I would add the space ship from the story, (A sleek, black, teardrop shaped streaker called the Parrallax) but thats all I would do. Thanks though.


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## plumboz (Sep 24, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> I've always liked this one. In some ways I like the simplicity of all red, but I think I might like it better if the background were a cooler color so that the Title and boomerang pop more.
> 
> Camille


Hi Camille,

I have no idea how to even go about creating a cover, so I was very happy when another member over at MR made this up for me for free.

Alan


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

plumboz said:


> Hi Camille,
> 
> I have no idea how to even go about creating a cover, so I was very happy when another member over at MR made this up for me for free.
> 
> Alan


I like it.


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## plumboz (Sep 24, 2009)

M.R. Mathias said:


> I like it.


Me too. It beats the heck out of the paperback cover, that's for sure.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

plumboz said:


> Me too. It beats the heck out of the paperback cover, that's for sure.


Yup.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

You know, something else I noticed with my new cover, almost twice as many people signed up to win a copy on my goodreads giveaway.  I've given several away, and always had about 400-500 people sign up.  The first one I posted with the new cover, almost 900 people signed up.  I'll take that as a good sign.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I was able to create a (hopefully good) cover myself


You can stop hoping. Your cover is great. The girl with the "don't make me get ornery with you" look, and a knife lying about, ready to stab his eyes out (not sure what happens in the book, but it must be tense).

To be specific, it's great for three reasons. One, the simplicity. It has nothing more than is needed. Second, it's got class. The font selection and spacing are not gaudy. Third, and the big reason (which perhaps may help others, even myself) is that your images exactly match the idea the title conveys. The words and images LINK to become a single idea. That is difficult to accomplish, but is probably the best advice for anyone seeking a good cover. When the art combines with the title and becomes a unified message. You did it. Well done.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> You can stop hoping. Your cover is great. The girl with the "don't make me get ornery with you" look, and a knife lying about, ready to stab his eyes out (not sure what happens in the book, but it must be tense).
> 
> To be specific, it's great for three reasons. One, the simplicity. It has nothing more than is needed. Second, it's got class. The font selection and spacing are not gaudy. Third, and the big reason (which perhaps may help others, even myself) is that your images exactly match the idea the title conveys. The words and images LINK to become a single idea. That is difficult to accomplish, but is probably the best advice for anyone seeking a good cover. When the art combines with the title and becomes a unified message. You did it. Well done.


Wow, William, thanks! 

Vicki


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## cherylktardif (Apr 21, 2010)

It's really best not to lump all Indie authors into one mold of having crappy covers. I agree that there are some covers that are absolutely horrible. However, in my experience, I've seen this with Indie AND traditionally published authors.

I've also seen some excellent book covers by Indie authors that look nothing like "Indie" (or bad) covers.

I have an ARC of a novel sent from a publisher I won't name. The cover looks like something a four year old did in playschool. The writing isn't bad, but I would never buy the book based on that cover--and yes, it's the finished cover--I checked. Ugh...


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Ryne,

  Don't know what your old covers are like but the two posted below your comment seem good - so I'm hoping that they're the new ones


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

plumboz said:


> Me too. It beats the heck out of the paperback cover, that's for sure.


Yup, that looks like a manual.


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

Ryne Douglas Pearson said:


> Just want to say that this thread motivated me to have my covers redone. I think they're an improvement.





MrPLD said:


> Ryne,
> 
> Don't know what your old covers are like but the two posted below your comment seem good - so I'm hoping that they're the new ones


Agreed! Those are two very nice covers Ryne. =)


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

It's been a very interesting thread, with many different kinds of covers represented. I have no doubt that a good cover helps sales immensely, but it's also difficult for an author just starting out to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a cover, when that money may never be recouped.

I did my covers myself, but I spent a huge amount of time on them, learning Photoshop and experimenting with fonts and effects and such. One thing I found very difficult was balancing what looked good in full size and what was easily readable in various size thumbnails (let alone the differences between print, LCD, and e-Ink).


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Ryne Douglas Pearson said:


> Just want to say that this thread motivated me to have my covers redone. I think they're an improvement.


Ryne, I think you will remember that I told you I bought your book (Donzerly Light)based on the title alone. yeah, the old artwork was.. "nahsogud" as my kids would say, "Not so good," to the rest of humanity... Now you have a cover to match your title. Fantabulous!


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah, like BT I love the title of The Donzerly Light, I had to say it out loud the first time to 'get it'. Now I grin every time I see it.  I like the new cover too (and have already forgotten what the old one looked like, but that's easy for me) although in thumbnail, "The Donzerly" is a little hard to see.

As for All For One....it's kinda meh, for me. Can't really say why, it just doesn't grab me.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

cherylktardif said:


> It's really best not to lump all Indie authors into one mold of having crappy covers. I agree that there are some covers that are absolutely horrible. However, in my experience, I've seen this with Indie AND traditionally published authors.


I think we probably need to differentiate between a _mechanically poor cover _ and a cover that _simply doesn't work._ Sure, I've seen traditional covers that didn't work for me or that didn't reflect accurately on the book, but they were mechanically sound. The font was readable. The colors clear and crisp. Images were a proper resolution. Several pages ago, someone pointed to the cover for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo as an example of a bad cover. I don't particularly LIKE the cover, but it isn't a bad cover. It is mechanically sound. The font color and background color are in high contrast so that you can read it. The text is legible even in thumbnail size. Important image elements aren't cut off at the edges.

And to bring it back to the original point of the thread, a lot of indies do in fact have mechanically bad covers. Dark red font on black backgrounds (or pastel fonts on pastel backgrounds), low resolution images, important cover elements that get cut off on the edges.

I don't think any of the covers folks here have posted are mechanically unsound. But I also think the folks who post here care much more about this sort of stuff than the majority of self-publishers. There are a lot more self-publishers than there are members of this forum, so a lot of what we are talking about falls under "preaching to the choir." But hopefully folks will take this discussion with them off forum and share this info with other aspiring self-publishers they meet.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Several pages ago, someone pointed to the cover for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo as an example of a bad cover. I don't particularly LIKE the cover, but it isn't a bad cover.


Stop picking on me.  I didn't say it was bad, I just said it wasn't great - and I've admitted to having poor taste. I voted for you as Queen of Mean, by the way.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Stop picking on me.  I didn't say it was bad, I just said it wasn't great - and I've admitted to having poor taste. I voted for you as Queen of Mean, by the way.


All the more reason for me to pick on you...


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't think any of the covers folks here have posted are mechanically unsound.


But some are aesthetically unsound.

And most announce themselves as indie books.

Being supportive is great, up until the point of denial. I spent YEARS having friends and family tell me my writing was good enough. But it wasn't good enough. Not their fault--they didn't know better because they weren't professionals.

Praise is like candy. We crave it, but it isn't good for us.

Enough validation, and you don't feel the need to improve.

We should always feel the need to improve. And we need to do that by seeking criticism.

This thread really isn't helpful, because we're writers, not full-time graphic designers.

Unless you've had a professional artist give your cover a thumbs up, you can't be sure it's good. And the validation of your writing peers isn't helpful, any more than validation from my mom is helpful. Love her, but she doesn't edit for a living.

If you don't mind instantly being pinged as a self-published book by the average Kindle reader, that's fine. But chances are, even if the average reader doesn't automatically think "this is self-published" while looking at your cover, she does subconsciously notice a difference between yours and the ones done by the Big 6.

Get the opinion of someone earning a living as an artist. If that means shelling out a few bucks, so be it. I fully contend that you'll sell more books with a more professional cover. And I know of what I speak.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> But some are aesthetically unsound.
> And most announce themselves as indie books. ....
> 
> ...This thread really isn't helpful, because we're writers, not full-time graphic designers.


While I agree with the first statement, I've got to disagree with the second. If you are a publisher, you HAVE to become a savvy art director. It doesn't matter who you hire, you have to diirect them. You have to have some sense of what you're doing.

You yourself went through many covers. We all need to go through that learning curve. It's more than just whether we embarrass ourselves too. A beautiful cover may still be the exactly wrong thing to sell a book.

Camille


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Get the opinion of someone earning a living as an artist. If that means shelling out a few bucks, so be it. I fully contend that you'll sell more books with a more professional cover. And I know of what I speak.


I've read several of your books because you post here and I think you're a good, bordering on great, writer - but your book covers don't look any better to me than many of those that our indie authors have created.


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Unless you've had a professional artist give your cover a thumbs up, you can't be sure it's good.
> ...
> If you don't mind instantly being pinged as a self-published book by the average Kindle reader, that's fine. But chances are, even if the average reader doesn't automatically think "this is self-published" while looking at your cover, she does subconsciously notice a difference between yours and the ones done by the Big 6.


Objectivity is another facet of the problem and a good reason why a professional opinion can be valuable. For years I'd worked as a graphic artist and magazine illustrator; I had all the tools and skills. Unfortunately my original idea for what I as an author imagined for my cover didn't translate well as an image and while it was mechanically sound it still had an aura of indie. Thanks to the blunt opinions of some thankfully honest folks, combined with some brilliant design suggestions from Ronnell the second version of my cover is (I would like to hope) far more professional, and more importantly, it works. Since the change I've seen a marked rise in sales.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Jeff said:


> I've read several of your books because you post here and I think you're a good writer - but your book covers don't look any better to me than many of those that our indie authors have created.


I wanted to say this, but didn't.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

MariaESchneider said:


> I wanted to say this, but didn't.


Well, I probably shouldn't have said anything but I get tired of people constantly telling indie authors that they're not "professionals".

In my unprofessional opinion the preponderance of the authors that visit this site are very talented as writers and graphic artists.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I like Joe's covers, but I do think genre has a *lot* to do with it.

What makes a great cover for one genre doesn't work with a different one.  And I'm not sure you can go with one formula for anything.  Making the image and text work together is great.  But spend some time looking at book covers at Amazon.  Not all of them do this.  Some are great for other reasons.  So I don't think it's fair to take one approach and say this is what needs to happen to all book covers.

Just sayin...

Vicki


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## bobavey (Sep 14, 2010)

A good cover can cause me to pick a book. I know the old saying, but the reality of the situation is -- people are affected by the cover art of a book.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

bobavey said:


> A good cover can cause me to pick a book. I know the old saying, but the reality of the situation is -- people are affected by the cover art of a book.


I like your cover--I clicked to see what the book is about and it sounds very interesting.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Two points, one pro and one con to what Jeff said:

1.) Joe's current covers, like them or not, are extremely professional and extremely effective. They don't rise above. They aren't due for any awards for most amazing cover.  But he is right.  They DO make a big difference in how his books come across to readers.

It's like the young woman I was talking to the other day.  She studied fashion magazines closely, and thought herself an expert in clothes.  She knew what colors were in, what "look" was the latest thing - but she couldn't spot quality clothes from knockoffs.  She could sense "class" in the real thing, but she she couldn't really analyze why one thing looked classy and another not.  She was really shocked that I, who have no idea what's in or out and don't know the designers names, COULD spot a Saville Row suit from something off the rack without hesitation.  She knew fashion, she didn't know fabric and fit.  Real class comes from great materials and excellent craftsmanship.

Joe's covers are plain, but they show the subtle craftmanship that signal "class."  To say his covers aren't so hot is to miss the point.

2.) ON THE OTHER HAND....

Not all of us are writing mainstream thrillers.  Many of us are writing quirky stuff.  Things that traditional publishing couldn't sell.  I'll even go so far as to say some of us are likely writing brilliant but utterly non-standard (or to be less polite - badly written and edited) stories that appeal to a niche.  Maybe something like fan-fic without the IP violations.  Some are writing strange literary work.

We are creating or own brands, and as with other times when publishing blossomed into new genres and markets, we're inventing expectations as we go along.  This is not to be taken as an excuse to just do whatever you want, but this is part of what breaking new ground is.  This is what it means to be on the cutting edge.  The cutting edge always includes a whole LOT of failures.  You can't avoid that.  If you play it safe, you are not cutting edge.  

But you DO have to be sophisticated.  If you want to succeed on the cutting edge, you do have to understand the forces at work.  It isn't just a matter of rejecting what is already out there.

Camille


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

David Derrico said:


> One thing I found very difficult was balancing what looked good in full size and what was easily readable in various size thumbnails (let alone the differences between print, LCD, and e-Ink).


Yes! I was going to bring this up also, as it's something I'm just getting around to now, experimenting until I get it right. I've put lots of effort into covers for the print editions, many proofs for color and composition, the whole deal. Then I saw it on screen and went, "Yikes! Who wrote this book?" The author name is tiny (see print editions on Amazon vs. my sig line experiments below, which are larger versions I'm trying out -- not final yet so comments are welcome).

About the author name, when it comes to design, when we do that part ourselves (set the type at least) there exists the natural tendency to not toot our own horn too loud (well, natural tendency for most, but certainly not 100% of us). So we lean toward making that "not so big," as we don't want to appear as having a big head. I'm guilty of it myself. The problem is that signals a lack of confidence in the work, the last thing we want to broadcast. Why I'm making adjustments.

One thing good covers have is the author name HUGE. At least well readable depending on what works for the rest of the layout. This especially applies to branded authors, for readers who care little about the title, they just want anything by that author. So that's something to consider, along with David's comments about making the design work not only for a print edition, but the thumbnail used to market it as well.



Jack Kilborn said:


> Unless you've had a professional artist give your cover a thumbs up...


I'm laughing hard at that one, Jack (Joe). The reference to "professional artist," or other references to "professional graphic designers." Not that I disagree, but you have to understand about me. I'm in the printing business, been at it since the seventies, running presses, bindery and typesetting, blah, blah blah. And I've spent the last half exclusively in prep. I have dealt with THOUSANDS of those professional artists and designers (defined as those who make a living at it).

I do stuff today for a national gallery that is really just a bunch of colored shapes. I wouldn't hang the crap up in my house if you paid me. But people pay hundreds of dollars for it -- and not originals, the freakin' prints that I make plates for. Mind blowing. One man's turd is another man's treasure.

The point is, art is subjective, including book covers. Me, I like yours. I like them a lot. There's others I like and some I don't. But that's just me.

I won't disagree on the aspect of "aesthetically unsound." I'm with you on that. But it just made me laugh, thinking about all the "pros" I deal with every day. Not to say good cover artists aren't out there. Only to say, just because they work(ed) at some high powered agency doesn't mean squat. Just sayin...

But you're right to suggest authors seek the help and/or opinion of "artists who have an eye for making good book covers." Whether or not they're "pro," check samples of their work and decide. Obviously, you have found someone with talent to help you out.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Jack Kilborn said:


> If you don't mind instantly being pinged as a self-published book by the average Kindle reader, that's fine. But chances are, even if the average reader doesn't automatically think "this is self-published" while looking at your cover, she does subconsciously notice a difference between yours and the ones done by the Big 6.


I've seen countless Big 6 books with covers that look amateur at best, to the degree that I wondered 'what were they thinking?' Very many of the cover designs by authors here impress the heck out of me.

CK


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Jeff said:


> I've read several of your books because you post here and I think you're a good, bordering on great, writer - but your book covers don't look any better to me than many of those that our indie authors have created.


There are certainly other indie covers that rival Kilborn's, but I'd say (most of) his covers are at the very high end. Most of them look, to me, like something that would come out of a large publishing house. Very appropriate for his genre, too. I know he mentioned earlier that he has three covers designed by family/friends, but by and large those are nice, solid covers.

I think there has been a tendency toward defensiveness at times in this thread. Nobody wants to hear or imagine that their book cover is one of the "bad covers". Despite the fact that the thread title generalizes, I haven't really seen any posts here that indicate that anyone thinks _all_ indie covers look unprofessional or distinctly "indie". There are obviously good ones among the not-so-good ones.

Honestly, most of us are writers, not graphic designers (I know there are exceptions). I don't think there's any reason to feel bad about the fact that we aren't as good at judging visual/design issues as a professional and/or trained artist. Just as most authors would scoff at the idea that just anyone could decide to write a book and produce a masterpiece, I think it's reasonable to say that not just anyone can design a professional-looking, mechanically sound book cover.

Yes, financial limitations. I understand that (truly, I do). Unfortunately, the need to invest in producing a quality product comes with the self-publishing territory. Both editors and cover artists cost money to hire. Both provide an indispensible service to authors looking to compete with traditionally published books. A professional editor is the more important investment, in my opinion, since their input can substantially improve the quality of the story, which is the element that will convert readers into fans. But the sad truth is that you can have an excellent story that still struggles to compete, if you don't have a cover that will entice readers.

I imagine that Ronnell may have to curb his cover designing activities so he can retain writing time for himself, but at $50, his covers are really quite professional-looking and attractive. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, $50 really isn't a big investment when it comes to marketing your book. Given the number of authors who have correlated cover redesigns with a boost in sales, I think that falls under the adage of "you have to spend money to make money". Are there exceptions? There are always exceptions. But the fact that good cover design is important really isn't in dispute.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Camille, I love your post. I hope you don't mind, but I've quoted my favorite lines of all, which when set off by themselves, could almost be our motto. It describes the feelings of many authors here at Kindleboards.



daringnovelist said:


> Not all of us are writing mainstream thrillers.
> Many of us are writing quirky stuff.
> Things that traditional publishing couldn't sell.
> Some are writing strange literary work.
> ...


Absolutely awesome. Thank you.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm with you, Carolyn.  Many of these indie covers impress me.

And it makes me wonder, the people who think that almost all of them need improving, if they went to Amazon and just looked at covers in general, would they think the same thing about professionally designed covers?

Just curious.  Because I see a lot of indie covers that compare nicely to professional covers.  Not all... but a lot.

Vicki


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

Vicky made an excellent point earlier along regarding the roll genre plays in the cover content. My husband is a fan of fantasy, and any  half-way professional cover featuring various elves, trolls, knights and dragons (often all in the same image) will stop him in his tracks. I prefer more classic hard-boiled and noir which lends itself to an entirely different look than fantasy, scifi, romance, horror or any of the other countless novels. 

As a reader, an intriguing cover will give me cause to take a closer look. The way books show up on Amazon, the cover image is the first impression a reader is presented with, even before they read the blurb or a sample. Keeping that in mind puts it into perspective.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Jeff said:


> I've read several of your books because you post here and I think you're a good, bordering on great, writer - but your book covers don't look any better to me than many of those that our indie authors have created.


Do you earn a living as an artist?

I don't. Which makes my opinion suspect. And yet, 9 times out of 10, I can spot an self-published cover when compared to a professional cover done by the Big 6. I believe others can too.

Thanks for the kind words, and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to be helpful, even though what I'm saying my not come off as fair or friendly.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

William Campbell said:


> The point is, art is subjective, including book covers. Me, I like yours. I like them a lot. There's others I like and some I don't. But that's just me.
> 
> I won't disagree on the aspect of "aesthetically unsound." I'm with you on that. But it just made me laugh, thinking about all the "pros" I deal with every day. Not to say good cover artists aren't out there. Only to say, just because they work(ed) at some high powered agency doesn't mean squat. Just sayin...


Some pros are better than others, certainly. 

Here's a challenge for you. Look at the book covers in my sig line. All but two were done by my cover artist. One was done by a different artist. One was done by a friend's wife who is not an artist.

Can you spot the friend's wife one? And can you spot the one done by a different artist?


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

'List' is your best seller, isn't it Joe (or close to it)? Because I think that's your most professional-looking cover.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Victorine said:


> And it makes me wonder, the people who think that almost all of them need improving, if they went to Amazon and just looked at covers in general, would they think the same thing about professionally designed covers?
> 
> Just curious. Because I see a lot of indie covers that compare nicely to professional covers. Not all... but a lot.


For what it's worth, I have definitely been turned off by certain professionally-designed, traditionally-published covers. Many book covers, especially in the romance genre, border on terrifically cheesy (as far as my sensibilities go). But as was mentioned up-thread, most of the "Big 6" covers that fail (for me) do so because I don't like the overall design or images used and not because they are amateurish or incompetently done. They are still mechanically sound, whether or not I personally like them. As so many people have pointed out, I think many times it comes down to typography issues. Even the worst professionally-designed covers rarely look like they were created in MS Paint using some cringe-worthy font to create text that looks "pasted on".

There are good indie covers, no doubt about it.

I think indie authors need to be extra diligent about securing good, solid covers for their books. What's the biggest negative perception that readers have about self-published work (as described in various places, including the recent SBTB poll asking just that question)? That self-published work is poorly-edited and amateurish. That these are books published by authors who were "not good enough" to be traditionally published. Fair or not, a lot of readers think that way. Packaging indie work with a poorly-designed cover may very well be the nail in the coffin of many a self-publisher's ambitions. Indie authors need to rise above expectations. That means aspiring to not only meet but even exceed the standards of traditionally published work.

I don't think people in this thread are biased against indie covers. I think they're just pointing out an uncomfortable truth.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Carolyn Kephart said:


> I've seen countless Big 6 books with covers that look amateur at best, to the degree that I wondered 'what were they thinking?' Very many of the cover designs by authors here impress the heck out of me.


Again, I'm not here to argue, but when you make a statement like that, can you link to a few of these amateur covers done by the Big 6? I'd like to see examples of what you define as amateur.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the Dragon Tattoo cover isn't effective. Perhaps. But it isn't amateur. Everything about it shows it was done by someone who has an understanding of layout, design, and color. You may not like it, but it doesn't look amateur.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Can you spot the friend's wife one? And can you spot the one done by a different artist?


I'm guessing Truck Stop is done by your friend's Wife and Floaters was done by a different artist. How'd I do?


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

I would have guessed "Floaters" as the friend's wife.  Not sure about the other one.  

Vicki


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Here's a challenge for you. Look at the book covers in my sig line. All but two were done by my cover artist. One was done by a different artist. One was done by a friend's wife who is not an artist. Can you spot the friend's wife one? And can you spot the one done by a different artist?


Heck ya, I'm game.

The pair of odd men out are Floaters and Serial.

My criteria for this guess goes back to my earlier comments about the size of author name. Those two are too small to read in a thumbnail. They're not broadcasting the author brand. Trapped and Endurance look like the same artist, as does List and Origin (though of course are likely the same artist for all four). And Shot of Tequila and Shaken are obvious, again by author name design as part of branding a series, though again, likely the same artist as the others. As for which is by a friend's wife and by a different artist, I'd have to think (anal-ize) further before making a guess.

I'm totally ready to be wrong as well. Wha'cha got?


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Victorine said:


> would they think the same thing about professionally designed covers?


Yes. I personally think that many professional covers could be improved.

But we're looking at two different things here.

In Major League Baseball, the worst players might be comparable to the best players in the minor leagues. But there still is a big difference when looked at overall. Major League players are, as a group, better than minor league players. Even though both kinds of players have room for improvement.

I actually debated with myself whether to chime in on this thread, because I knew the things I had to say would be unpopular. But I'm used to being unpopular. And people have been helped when I speak my mind.

Three people have contacted my cover artist in the last few days, and I'm guessing that's because I posted here. So some folks are listening.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

William Campbell said:


> The pair of odd men out are Floaters and Serial.


You're correct. So is Victorine.

I bet both of you could go on Amazon and look at book covers and spot the indies over the Big 6 more often than not.

If that's the case, don't you think readers can too?


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I actually debated with myself whether to chime in on this thread...


I'm glad you did. Saying unpopular things is how we get people talking. And for anyone not worried about criticism, it's easy to see that you're trying to offer helpful advice. Your comments don't offend me.

But you're clever, too, you little rat. Your "who designed which book cover" challenge has us talking about _your_ books. Devious little devil, you are, but I won't complain. Better to learn from it. (GRIN)


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Again, I'm not here to argue, but when you make a statement like that, can you link to a few of these amateur covers done by the Big 6? I'd like to see examples of what you define as amateur.


I was only offering a harmless personal observation, and would rather not start what would certainly turn into an argument by providing examples. My tastes are pretty idiosyncratic, which might have to do with my background in art history.

Now that I've downloaded Gimp I plan to give my own covers a re-working, just for the fun of it.

CK


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Sometimes I can spot them by their covers.  Sometimes I can't.

Which brings me to my next question, then.  If I'm selling well, do I need to worry about it?  (I keep thinking you're looking at my cover and wondering why others have said they like it when it's so obviously an "indie" cover.)

Vicki


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

This thread has me wondering...

I like my cover. Others have commented that they like it too. But, it's not really in line with what's typical for the romance genre. I'd like to think my book crosses a few genre borders, but is having a cover that doesn't really "fit" into my main genre hurting me?


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I'm with you, Carolyn. Many of these indie covers impress me.
> 
> And it makes me wonder, the people who think that almost all of them need improving, if they went to Amazon and just looked at covers in general, would they think the same thing about professionally designed covers?
> 
> ...


There are _many _cringeworthy covers from large publishing houses. Just as there are badly edited books, since budget cuts force them to cut staff and raise prices.

My "thing" when it comes to indie publishers or indie authors, however, is that we should reach for quality standards over and above if a mere "equal to" (e.g., a WTF? You _kidding _me? sort of cover on a Big Name book) causes us to wrinkle our noses. Just because Big Name cover sucks, or Big Name author's latest bestseller wasn't given the same editorial attention it was four years ago isn't an excuse for our own books to follow the same path. Writing is an art, yes, but also a craft--same as covers. Thus, our books, pixel or paper, are handcrafted products. When I seek out an item that is handcrafted by a single individual instead of one that is mass produced, I like to think that I'll also see higher attention to quality and detail, not less.

Many people dismiss indies "out of hand" on what they hear, what they've seen, what they are seeing. An author will use a defense: "I can't afford an editor/artist/publicist" yet will sit and complain about their rankings, sales, bad reviews, and books being returned.

Maybe we don't need "professionals" telling us what to do, or giving us a seal of approval, since this board has proven that a community working together as a team on a cover, a pitch, a product description can help an author in need--and willing to listen--produce some kickass stuff.

But we do need strong, honest opinions from others who also might stick pins in our egos. Improvement is painful. Ask anyone at the gym.  It's also worth it.

I believe that was the original poster's intention with this thread was supportive as well as critical.

Readers who have discovered our works (and enjoyed them) WANT us to be successful. Our readers are our customers. Customers are golden. If they have an issue with our packaging, and suggest it needs improvement, we should pay attention to them instead of whining about it and trying to defend something because "we can't afford it and people should simply understand that and pay for it anyway" which no one has said, but seems to be a common theme of many posts on various forums across the web.

Art is art, yes, but there are many starving artists and even they have to resort to something a little more mainstream to get food on the table until they make a name for themselves. So it is with the DIY Indie author/cover artist.

If what you have is working for you, getting you sales, making you deliriously happy and fulfilled: don't fix it. (I realize that many of us are happy simply having a book listed on Amazon and don't care about the sales. That's seriously great, it means you're happy and content. Don't fix anything. But don't get upset when a customer disses you, either--remember you put the book out for consumption.)

If you're not happy, not getting the results you want? Then it's time to change something.

That's all.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

T.M. Roy (Terry) said:


> If you're not happy, not getting the results you want? Then it's time to change something.
> 
> That's all.


Yes! Exactly. And this is why I left my cover alone and changed my price. Whee! Now I'm on track to make more than double per month what I was making at $2.99.

I'm thinking I don't really need to change my cover. If it's working for me... I probably shouldn't mess with it. Even though I didn't pay a dime for it.

Vicki


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Yes! Exactly. And this is why I left my cover alone and changed my price. Whee! Now I'm on track to make more than double per month what I was making at $2.99.


Were you just on KND?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Some pros are better than others, certainly.
> 
> Here's a challenge for you. Look at the book covers in my sig line. All but two were done by my cover artist. One was done by a different artist. One was done by a friend's wife who is not an artist.
> 
> Can you spot the friend's wife one? And can you spot the one done by a different artist?


I'm guessing Floaters and Serial, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to which was which. (Frankly, there there things I like and dislike about both.)

Camille


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

There shouldn't be any paranoia in this thread about if anyone likes anyone else's covers.

There are several indie covers I do like. I think every cover shown so far, mine included, could be tweaked and made better. But I didn't post here to point fingers and say "Yours is good and yours is okay and yours sucks." I'm not an artist, my opinion doesn't carry much weight.

If you're not selling as well as you'd like, consider changing the cover.

If you have doubts about your cover, consider hiring someone who does it for a living.

If you're fine with your cover, it shouldn't matter what anyone says about it. Being defensive is a waste of time.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> I'm guessing Floaters and Serial, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to which was which. (Frankly, there there things I like and dislike about both.)


Yep. Spot on.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Do you earn a living as an artist?
> 
> I don't. Which makes my opinion suspect. And yet, 9 times out of 10, I can spot an self-published cover when compared to a professional cover done by the Big 6. I believe others can too.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words, and I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to be helpful, even though what I'm saying my not come off as fair or friendly.


No, sir, I'm not an artist. I'm just an old guy that buys a lot of books and who can't see the difference between your covers and Monique's.

The fair and friendly thing to do would be to encourage all these talented young people in public and then offer them the benefit of your experience privately. If you think someone's cover or prose or spelling needs improvement, please send them a PM instead of posting something that adds to their self-doubts. You're a giant here. Your words carry a lot of weight.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Were you just on KND?


To answer my own question (I just looked it up), yes. I wonder if you wouldn't have been better off leaving it at $2.99 for KND and making some money. But sales are good, too.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> I think every cover shown so far, mine included, could be tweaked and made better. ...
> 
> .... Being defensive is a waste of time.


Two very important points.

One thing that is true both of fiction and of art and design - one of the things that makes the biggest difference is going the extra distance. Concept drawings often look awful. A polished rough draft of a cover can look almost as bad, but just a few tweaks makes a WORLD of difference. Sometimes just adding a drop shadow with a gaussian blur makes the text POP. Making the name just a little bigger. Kerning and leading. Two points of type size.

These can be the thing that makes more difference than the whole concept, and it's what makes the difference between a pro and an amateur.

Do what you can, and what you want. But yes, being defensive doesn't improve anything, so why waste time on it.

Camille


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> To answer my own question (I just looked it up), yes. I wonder if you wouldn't have been better off leaving it at $2.99 for KND and making some money. But sales are good, too.


Yep, I was on KND. And I was at $2.99. My sales were great for two days. Then they went back to what they were before KND. (An average of 3 per day.) I was hoping being featured on KND would kick it up and keep the sales going. That didn't happen. So I lowered my price to 99 cents to see what I could do.

I'm very happy. And did I mention I'm making double what I was making on my best month? (Which isn't this month. Or even last month.) 

Vicki


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Jeff said:


> No, sir, I'm not an artist. I'm just an old guy that buys a lot of books and who can't see the difference between your covers and Monique's.
> 
> The fair and friendly thing to do would be to encourage all these talented young people in public and then offer them the benefit of your experience privately. If you think someone's cover or prose or spelling needs improvement, please send them a PM instead of posting something that adds to their self-doubts. You're a giant here. Your words carry a lot of weight.


Here's where I disagree. Joe does a yeoman's job of encouraging all of us - and a part of that IS in giving us the benefit of his experience openly. To ALL of us, not just a select few. It's not as though he picked on anyone's individual covers. He's explaining principles.

One thing I think we all need is to learn to deal with our self-doubts - they are a valuable asset if we don't let them intimidate us. But they are necessary to moving us higher.

Camille


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh well.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Again, I'm not here to argue, but when you make a statement like that, can you link to a few of these amateur covers done by the Big 6? I'd like to see examples of what you define as amateur.


Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/Honor-BetrayD-Mageworlds-Book/dp/0812517067
It looks amateurish to me. Publisher is Tor, probably THE biggest SF publisher in the US.


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> You're correct. So is Victorine.


Ah, I suspected as much, but this thread ran past before I had the chance to toss my answer into the ring. When I was going round two on my cover I studied a number of mystery/thriller genre big sellers such as yourself and considered the design elements and layouts. Those two covers stood out to me as, shall we say, less visually effective than the others. For many thrillers it seems the key is to keep it simple and uncluttered, easy to read especially in a thumbnail, and with any luck visually interesting. Strong colors, strong contrast. So I boiled mine down to the actual road sign for the title, the Parkway, deliberately motion-blurred, and the author.

For years I got paid to do magazine illustrations, so I do have a background in this work.

This is an excellent discussion; it has people talking and taking a closer look at their work. Sometimes the least popular statements can be the most helpful ones in the long run.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Yep, I was on KND. And I was at $2.99. My sales were great for two days. Then they went back to what they were before KND. (An average of 3 per day.) I was hoping being featured on KND would kick it up and keep the sales going. That didn't happen. So I lowered my price to 99 cents to see what I could do.
> 
> I'm very happy. And did I mention I'm making double what I was making on my best month? (Which isn't this month. Or even last month.)
> 
> Vicki


Ah. So you were on KND on 9/23 @ $2.99 then went down to $0.99 after a little while (was it Monday?). What do the sales at $0.99 look like compared to the KND @$2.99?


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Monique said:


> This thread has me wondering...
> 
> I like my cover. Others have commented that they like it too. But, it's not really in line with what's typical for the romance genre. I'd like to think my book crosses a few genre borders, but is having a cover that doesn't really "fit" into my main genre hurting me?


You have a very good cover and I'd pick it up and at least look at it for content. If it's strictly romance, I probably wouldn't buy it. If you put a typical romance cover on it, I wouldn't give it a second glance. But that is just me and I often question my own taste in covers (as I said, I don't think Joe's stand out as particularly awesome, although his The List is my favorite.)

Victorine, your cover is amazing. Don't change a thing.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

kcmay said:


> Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/Honor-BetrayD-Mageworlds-Book/dp/0812517067
> It looks amateurish to me. Publisher is Tor, probably THE biggest SF publisher in the US.


1994 called. It wants its cover back 

It is actually from 1994, though LOL.


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> Here's where I disagree. Joe does a yeoman's job of encouraging all of us - and a part of that IS in giving us the benefit of his experience openly. To ALL of us, not just a select few. It's not as though he picked on anyone's individual covers. He's explaining principles.
> 
> One thing I think we all need is to learn to deal with our self-doubts - they are a valuable asset if we don't let them intimidate us. But they are necessary to moving us higher.
> 
> Camille


Agreed.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> 1994 called. It wants its cover back
> 
> It is actually from 1994, though LOL.


I thought it was bad in '94, too!


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Jeff said:


> No, sir, I'm not an artist. I'm just an old guy that buys a lot of books and who can't see the difference between your covers and Monique's.


I haven't directly addressed anyone's covers, and haven't looked at Monique's.

But I am willing to say that there is a difference between my covers and many indie covers. If you can't see the difference, I'm happy to discuss it.

My titles and author name are readable as thumbnails. My covers don't fade out in grayscale. My covers directly convey the genre they represent. My covers have complimentary color schemes. My covers make good use of negative space, and the rule of thirds, and light effects. My covers do not look like an iStockPhoto image with some Photoshop font slapped on top. The composition of my covers is carefully considered. My covers have balance and harmony.

I'm not a guy who is able to do, or truly understand, good artwork. I'm a layperson. A real artist would be able to go into more depth than I am here, about what the differences are.



Jeff said:


> The fair and friendly thing to do would be to encourage all these talented young people in public and then offer them the benefit of your experience privately. If you think someone's cover or prose or spelling needs improvement, please send them a PM instead of posting something that adds to their self-doubts. You're a giant here. Your words carry a lot of weight.


I get several hundred emails from people, every week, wanting my advice or my help. When I was younger, I tried to help individuals as much as I could. I taught adult ed at a local college. I gave classes at libraries and conventions. I got paid decent money and was flown around the country, giving speeches.

And I learned I can't help everyone. Some simply are beyond help. Some resent my help. Some know better than me. Some ignore my help. Some criticize my help.

So now, the only help I give, is advice on my blog, and occasionally on writing forums. My advice is hard-earned, and I offer it so people don't have to make all the mistakes I did.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

kcmay said:


> I thought it was bad in '94, too!


Yeah, it looks like an 80's cover to me. Maybe even 70's.


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> You have a very good cover and I'd pick it up and at least look at it for content. If it's strictly romance, I probably wouldn't buy it. If you put a typical romance cover on it, I wouldn't give it a second glance. But that is just me and I often question my own taste in covers (as I said, I don't think Joe's stand out as particularly awesome, although his The List is my favorite.)
> 
> Victorine, your cover is amazing. Don't change a thing.


Likewise, Monique, your cover works for me. It doesn't jump out at me as romance, but like Maria, I'd steer clear of it if it did. That's just my personal taste, though there are many readers who feel just the opposite. And Victorine, your cover is, indeed, amazing. Don't fix what ain't broke!


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Jeff said:


> The fair and friendly thing to do would be to encourage...


I must have missed something. Joe is hammering us all with his point over and over -- get an opinion from a pro, not yourself, family or friends, not from any of us here, even him. Seek the opinion of someone in "the know." That IS encouragement. Just because someone doesn't want to hear the message, doesn't make it a critical message.



Jeff said:


> ...then offer them the benefit of your experience privately.


What does that cost an hour? I know for my specialty, it's $120. One-on-one with Joe is probably worth that or more, easily. When you have something people want, and you're willing to give some away, you do it in public, not private. People with knowledge and success are busy, and don't have the time to help others one person at a time, at least, for free. Free advice goes in public forums so the greatest number may benefit.



kcmay said:


> Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/Honor-BetrayD-Mageworlds-Book/dp/0812517067
> It looks amateurish to me. Publisher is Tor, probably THE biggest SF publisher in the US.


Not contemporary doesn't = amateur. The cover reminds of many pulp sci-fi paperbacks I consumed in the sixties. That stuff sold like crazy. Either it's old reissue preserving the original cover, or they're going after that "flavor" on purpose. There's nothing amateur about it. Dorky maybe, but that's different. Probably cost a pretty penny, in fact. Whether or not you like it is another matter. Again, outside your tastes does not necessarily = amateur, or outside the tastes of others (though that one, yes, likely not very popular in the mainstream of contemporary times).


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Ah. So you were on KND on 9/23 @ $2.99 then went down to $0.99 after a little while (was it Monday?). What do the sales at $0.99 look like compared to the KND @$2.99?


Thursday - 28 sold
Friday - 27 sold
Saturday - 12 sold
Sunday - 6 sold, mostly early. Dead silence for hours. Rank slipped way down. No way anyone would see me on Amazon and take a shot, so Sunday night I changed my price. It went effective Monday in the afternoon. I had only sold one book between the time I had changed it and when it went into effect. (So, if I hadn't changed it, my day might have been three at best.)
Monday - 49 sold
Tuesday - 67 sold
Today - 21 sold by 2:24 in the afternoon.

Yes, my KND days generated more cash flow than these last two days, but I'm not going to be able to be featured on KND every day. And when I saw I was headed back to 3 a day, I tried the 99 cent route.

(Sorry to derail the thread.)

For a more on topic post, Monique, I really love your cover. And while it doesn't scream "romance," I do think your book crosses genres. One question. By your cover I am assuming there's no sex in your book. That's just usually how it goes. When there's no sexy girl/guy on the cover, it's usually a more "sweet" romance. I have no idea if this is the case, but just wanted to let you know this is what your cover is saying to me.

Vicki


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Yeah, it looks like an 80's cover to me. Maybe even 70's.


That's the intent. That whole series is going for the "golden age of sci-fi pulps" look.

Is it particularly attractive? No. But it does exactly what it sets out to do. It looks like a pulp science fiction space opera.

And whether you like it or not isn't the point. The point is, this is obviously an intentional, professional cover.

Could have been A LOT better though...


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Haha. Okay. It must be just me that thinks that Jack/Joe is constantly putting down all the self-published authors. I'll keep my opinions to myself in the future.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

kcmay said:


> Here's one: http://www.amazon.com/Honor-BetrayD-Mageworlds-Book/dp/0812517067
> It looks amateurish to me. Publisher is Tor, probably THE biggest SF publisher in the US.


That cover is a LOT more sophisticated than it looks. The whole series is going for a retro look, and maybe that's what you're reacting to.

Now whether it's the right approach is another matter. Publishers are notorious for choosing covers that authors hate. (I have no idea how Doyle and MacDonald feel about it, for instance.) Sometimes they make decisions that are meant to sell to people who haven't read the book, even if people who have read the book hate them.

For instance - Bruce Coville's YA fantasy "Jennifer Murdley's Toad" featured a young woman who was not attractive - that was the whole point in the story. But the publisher insisted on putting a young fashion model on the cover because they believed that girls would only buy books with beautiful girls on the cover. After a lot of fighting, they compromised on having a girl looking in a mirror. We could see her back and that she was overweight and her hair was not done up - but her reflection was a beautiful young supermodel. "Inner beauty." (That wasn't exactly the point of the story either, but that was as close as they would let the cover get to reflecting the book.)

But for all the awfulness of such covers, they were professionally done. And though they could have been better, they did not turn off the audience.

We have the opportunity to cover both ends of the spectrum, but we've got to then take up both sides of the argument. We've got to be the writer and want what's right, but we also have to be the publisher and want what's effective. We can't stop halfway.

Camille


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Haha. Okay. It must be just me that thinks that Jack/Joe is constantly putting down all the self-published authors. I'll keep my opinions to myself in the future.


Please don't, Jeff, I always value everything you post.

~~~

We should set up a thumbs up or thumbs down thread with images of our covers (assuming Joe would take time to comment). Not only could we see what an in-the-biz guy thinks of our own covers, we could learn a few things about covers in general.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

William Campbell said:


> Not contemporary doesn't = amateur. The cover reminds of many pulp sci-fi paperbacks I consumed in the sixties. That stuff sold like crazy. Either it's old reissue preserving the original cover, or they're going after that "flavor" on purpose. There's nothing amateur about it. Dorky maybe, but that's different. Probably cost a pretty penny, in fact. Whether or not you like it is another matter. Again, outside your tastes does not necessarily = amateur, or outside the tastes of others (though that one, yes, likely not most very popular in the mainstream of contemporary times).


LOL, I just crossed your post saying the same thing.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks for the comments. OUT OF TIME is not a typical romance. The six pack ab or lusty busty cover doesn't fit it at all.



Victorine said:


> For a more on topic post, Monique, I really love your cover. And while it doesn't scream "romance," I do think your book crosses genres. One question. By your cover I am assuming there's no sex in your book. That's just usually how it goes. When there's no sexy girl/guy on the cover, it's usually a more "sweet" romance. I have no idea if this is the case, but just wanted to let you know this is what your cover is saying to me.
> 
> Vicki


First, congrats on your wicked sales! Second, there is sex. It's, well, I don't know how steamy, but there is sex in it. But, the relationships (not just romance), suspense and adventure are much more prominent.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Jack Kilborn said:


> LOL, I just crossed your post saying the same thing.


Ha! Got me laughing too. I bet you read some with gaudy covers when you were a kid, too.


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

A particular favorite cover of mine....










And yes, it's 1969. Oh, is it ever 1969!

Is this cover dated? Indeed. Is it professional? I'd say so. Is it fun, and would it get me to take a closer look at this book even if it wasn't written by Donald Westlake? Most certainly. In my opinion, it works, even to this day.

I for one appreciate anyone who has achieved what I'm looking to achieve taking the time to share their advice and insight.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Here are some more in that series. They are kind of cool, for what they're trying to do. They also have some similar themes, so readers can identify them as part of a series:

http://www.amazon.com/Starpilots-Grave-Mageworlds-Book-2/dp/0812517059

http://www.amazon.com/Price-Stars-Book-One-Mageworlds/dp/0812517040

http://www.amazon.com/Gathering-Flame-Prequel-Mageworlds-No/dp/0812534956/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285789522&sr=1-1

There are also three more in the series.


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## Basil Sands (Aug 18, 2010)

A book without a good cover is like a pretty girl dressed in a burlap sack with unkempt hair and no makeup. Inside is all of what would make a lovely girl lovely, but she's probably not going to get many suitors. 

A book cover can be retro, it can be fancy, it can be plain...but it must be professional quality. It's your face, the only one most of the public will see and the face your potential customers will identify with your quality. 

Regarding retro covers, Don Pendleton's Executioner series and Warren/Shapir's Destroyer series covers are what made me grab his books when I was a kid. I get nostalgic and tend to buy them again as an adult when I see them. So retro rocks!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> Thanks for the comments. OUT OF TIME is not a typical romance. The six pack ab or lusty busty cover doesn't fit it at all.


Yeah, some books are hard to nail. Yours at least does look professional and attractive.

My book "The Wife of Freedom" is almost impossible to nail. I went for a small press look for that reason (though I went with larger, more commercial style typography). Ronnell is working on a new cover, but has admitted it is really hard to come up with a concept too. If he gives up, I think I have a new concept that I can make more "professional" myself.

Camille


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Thursday - 28 sold
> Friday - 27 sold
> Saturday - 12 sold
> Sunday - 6 sold, mostly early. Dead silence for hours. Rank slipped way down. No way anyone would see me on Amazon and take a shot, so Sunday night I changed my price. It went effective Monday in the afternoon. I had only sold one book between the time I had changed it and when it went into effect. (So, if I hadn't changed it, my day might have been three at best.)
> ...


Just curious, did you also promote it as 99 cents for a limited time? That's a often big factor besides just price. The "limited time only sale" effect has its own pull. Once you aren't mentioning the promotion, if you keep it at 99 cents I'd be curious how the sales are at 99 vs 2.99.

I can definitely relate, btw. After you get that KND rush you start thinking of other ways to keep that sales rank up


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Basil Sands said:


> A book without a good cover is like a pretty girl dressed in a burlap sack with unkempt hair and no makeup. Inside is all of what would make a lovely girl lovely, but she's probably not going to get many suitors.


And this is EXACTLY what I meant back on page 1 or 2 of this thread when I said having a good cover is like preparing for a first date. What is inside can be the absolute best in the world, but if no one will even look at you how are they going to find out? A good book cover DEFINATELY makes a difference.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Just curious, did you also promote it as 99 cents for a limited time? That's a often big factor besides just price. The "limited time only sale" effect has its own pull. Once you aren't mentioning the promotion, if you keep it at 99 cents I'd be curious how the sales are at 99 vs 2.99.
> 
> I can definitely relate, btw. After you get that KND rush you start thinking of other ways to keep that sales rank up


I did say I put it on sale, but I didn't specify 'for a limited time.' I wasn't sure if it would be a limited time.

I know that some of my sales came right from promotion. But I don't think all of them did. Once you hit a certain rank, Amazon does it's own promotion with their recommendations and such.

I'll let everyone know how things go. There very well might be a slow down. If that's the case, and I'm not breaking even any more, I'll raise it back up.

Vicki


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## cegrundler (Aug 16, 2010)

Vicky,

Now you've got me thinking and crunching numbers... this is fascinating. I'll definitely be following how this progresses.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

To anyone who thinks retro/noir/'50s-60s covers are passé or dated I would refer you to the Penguin reissue of the original Bond series by Ian Fleming.  The redesigned covers are gorgeous, and I think they capture the flavor of the series very successfully in my humble opinion.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Few quick things - then back to reading.  This thread EXPLODED.

1) Daniel - hope I don't offend you / hurt your feelings, but I don't like the Firefly Island cover, sorry.  I liked the book cover a lot, but the Kindle cover to me, says Sci-Fi.  It's actually a big reason I haven't downloaded the sample yet.  Sowwy!
2) T.L. - chalk me up as another person who has a hard time seing the "Shhh" face.  I noticed it the other day when you posted your links to your step-by-steps, but even knowing it's there it's hard to see.  I like the cover overall, though.
3) L.K. - I missed the cover of Bleeder?!?!?  Waaaahhh!!! :sniffle:
4) Joe - Maybe I have the visual equivalent of a tin ear, but I couldn't pick out which three of your covers were done by friends and family.  Of course, I didn't click to enlarge the thumbnails, etc.  Maybe if I had, I would have spotted them.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Arkali said:


> 1) Daniel - hope I don't offend you / hurt your feelings, but I don't like the Firefly Island cover, sorry. I liked the book cover a lot, but the Kindle cover to me, says Sci-Fi. It's actually a big reason I haven't downloaded the sample yet. Sowwy!


Two more cents. I thoroughly love the 'Flaming Dove' cover, and I think 'Firefly Island' is a beautiful and professional-looking cover, but I agree with you on the genre issue. The cover for 'Firefly Island' looks like a children's book to me. I haven't read the book (and it might even be because of the cover, now that you mention it), so I don't know if it's intended for a somewhat younger audience, but that's what I get from it. I think Daniel has great taste and standards in choosing his covers, though.


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## Karma Kindle (Jul 27, 2009)

In my mind an amateur looking cover is inextricably intertwined with the fear that it is the container for amateur quality writing.  If an author's taste in how they package their work is awful (IMO), I consider it highly likely that we don't have the same taste in reading material.  With there being so much available to read, I don't need to dig for reading material - -so it's the author who stands out who gets my attention.

BTW, Simple covers aren't automatically amateur -- but, as they say with obscenity: I know amateur when I see it.

p.s. Sad, but true: there are authors who've posted to this thread whose covers are so atrociously amateur that I'll likely never even know what they've posted in this thread -- because the covers in their signatures had me skipping over their words.  On the other hand, there are authors who've obviously put effort into creating professional packaging -- and I've stopped to learn more about their work.

p.p.s.  If I was an author and had only $200 to create a cover, I'd probably head out to a local high school or community college and speak to a graphic design teacher about hosting a book cover design contest -- where the top prize was $200 (or an ipod or the like) and having the winner's work used as the cover for the book....


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Which brings me to my next question, then. If I'm selling well, do I need to worry about it? (I keep thinking you're looking at my cover and wondering why others have said they like it when it's so obviously an "indie" cover.)


Vic, I'd never in a million years think "indie" based on your cover. So I'd say don't worry 



Monique said:


> I like my cover. Others have commented that they like it too. But, it's not really in line with what's typical for the romance genre. I'd like to think my book crosses a few genre borders, but is having a cover that doesn't really "fit" into my main genre hurting me?


I like your cover, but it doesn't say "Paranormal Romance" - sorry. PNR _is_ one of my genres I like a LOT, but your cover didn't urge me to at least go look. Your blurb your recently added did that  So, while I'd say that your cover is technically sound and attractive looking, I don't think it "works". Sorry


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Arkali said:


> I like your cover, but it doesn't say "Paranormal Romance" - sorry. PNR _is_ one of my genres I like a LOT, but your cover didn't urge me to at least go look. Your blurb your recently added did that  So, while I'd say that your cover is technically sound and attractive looking, I don't think it "works". Sorry


What it says to me is _mainstream_ paranormal romance - yes there is such a genre but it is shelved with the mainstream and literary books. Things like the Time Traveler's Wife, or some of the magical realism type books.

Camille


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Arkali said:


> ...
> 
> 3) L.K. - I missed the cover of Bleeder?!?!? Waaaahhh!!! :sniffle:
> ...


aw, sorry! I'll post it again as soon as I have permission from the artist.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Monique said:


> Thanks for the comments. OUT OF TIME is not a typical romance. The six pack ab or lusty busty cover doesn't fit it at all.
> 
> First, congrats on your wicked sales! Second, there is sex. It's, well, I don't know how steamy, but there is sex in it. But, the relationships (not just romance), suspense and adventure are much more prominent.


I love your cover (and the story!), but I agree it doesn't shout paranormal or romance. If you used the clock, maybe somewhat transparent, in the background of another picture, such as man & woman in 1929 garb, that might work. (Of course, I'm the last person to be giving cover suggestions -- I'm a dunce when it comes to that sort of thing. I must hire out all my cover art!)


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Thank you for the comments and honesty. It's a conundrum. I am shooting for "mainstream paranormal romance", so if it has that feel, I'm pleased. 

Decisions. Decisions.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> Thank you for the comments and honesty. It's a conundrum. I am shooting for "mainstream paranormal romance", so if it has that feel, I'm pleased.
> 
> Decisions. Decisions.


I didn't look at your book description until now, and I think that the time travel element may fit with the "mainstream paranormal romance" audience, but demons do not. That really puts it more in the area of urban fantasy and regular paranormal romance. I suspect what might be different for you is tone? (That is, maybe it's lighter and feels more like magical realism and these dark vampire romances that flood through paranomal romance these days?)

It really is an interesting combo, though. I'm looking to do something that I can only describe as "Jazzpunk" - that is steampunk in the WWi and early twenties era. I'm going to try to use period motifs, for my cover, but I'm still in the concept stage.

This is what I was talking about earlier with having to set our own expectations - we need to use whatever shorthands exist in current work (the gears in your cover being reminiscent of steam punk) but we have to find ways to "brand" our own changes to the style.

Camille


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I guess I'm not that analytical...I don't remember consciously thinking of genre when I look at a book cover (unless it is pretty explicit, with a vampire or a rocket ship on it).  I'm more of the "ooh, pretty!  shiny!" type of book cover browser.


Betsy


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Jazzpunk? Cool. I love steampunk.

Betsy, you're onto something. At some point, we do ourselves a disservice by over analyzing. 

It's a difficult balancing act.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I guess I'm not that analytical...I don't remember consciously thinking of genre when I look at a book cover (unless it is pretty explicit, with a vampire or a rocket ship on it). I'm more of the "ooh, pretty! shiny!" type of brook cover browser.


I'm a lot like you, Betsy; while it's sometimes nice if the cover kinda reflects its genre, it's not really all that necessary for me. One that catches my eye in a good way is often enough to at least make me look further into the title and description, the next places to hook me...


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## Cliff Ball (Apr 10, 2010)

I created the cover to The Usurper myself using Gimp and Paint.net, and I think, in my opinion, it looks better than the covers to Out of Time and Don't Mess With Earth, which are covers done by the pod publishers I used. Although, with Don't Mess With Earth, I put a new cover for the e-book myself, but, I'm sure I could make it a lot better.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Haha. Okay. It must be just me that thinks that Jack/Joe is constantly putting down all the self-published authors. I'll keep my opinions to myself in the future.


I think it's important to remember that there is a *HUGE* difference between constructive criticism and putting someone down.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> What it says to me is _mainstream_ paranormal romance - yes there is such a genre but it is shelved with the mainstream and literary books. Things like the Time Traveler's Wife, or some of the magical realism type books.
> 
> Camille


Sorry, Camille, not seeing it. And again, I like the cover, but I would never in a million years guess that it was a paranormal romance. Sorry, I just wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't even necessarily guess that it was romance at all, of any sub-genre. We'll have to agree to disagree, but like I said, it was the blurb that got me to download the sample, not the cover.

@ Daniel - not sure if I said it before, but I love the Flaming Dove cover


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Monique said:


> Decisions. Decisions.


Thanks again for the . . . . Oh, wait. I used that one already this week.

Never mind.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Arkali said:


> I think it's important to remember that there is a *HUGE* difference between constructive criticism and putting someone down.


I thought I knew the difference. Apparently not. My apologies to everyone for sidetracking the thread.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Sorry, Camille, not seeing it. And again, I like the cover, but I would never in a million years guess that it was a paranormal romance. Sorry, I just wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't even necessarily guess that it was romance at all, of any sub-genre. We'll have to agree to disagree, but like I said, it was the blurb that got me to download the sample, not the cover.
> 
> @ Daniel - not sure if I said it before, but I love the Flaming Dove cover


Now that I took a look at the blurb, I agree with you that the book is not the genre I was talking about. You are correct, it is a paranormal romance. As I said in another post - that cover indicates time travel or an other magical realism element in a mainstream literary work, but not a world with demons, which takes it out of mainstream into genre, imho.

Camille


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Right now, we've got the following cover - we actually want something different but we're really waiting for the $$$ to roll in. The _planned_ cover is going to cost about $2000 because we'll need a good illustrator... and that's just for the artwork, at least I can composit the page once we have the appropriate artwork.



Paul.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

The cover looks awesome!! But... isn't it backward? The front image should be on the right side.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

kcmay,

You're right, they are - but that's because I just quickly composed the single image out of the two sides.  The actual paper-back cover image is correctly composed 

Paul


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## ecaggiani (Sep 7, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> Right now, we've got the following cover - we actually want something different but we're really waiting for the $$$ to roll in. The _planned_ cover is going to cost about $2000 because we'll need a good illustrator... and that's just for the artwork, at least I can composit the page once we have the appropriate artwork.


Love it! Great work


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

Paul I like your cover.  I wouldn't change a thing.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Dawn,

  Thanks for the kind words - though if you could see the concepts for the -real- covers we want you'll be even more impressed.

  Part of the issue is that there'll be multiple books centered around this realm so we need them to match up in terms of covers.  Maybe we'll just have to go with different sorts of leaves for now 

Paul

PS, I quite like your cover actually, simple, effective - does it have an Egyptian element to it?


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

OK, while we're baring our covers (and our souls), I'll toss this out for critiquing.
Take a look at these 2 images, and tell me if you will what your thoughts are, especially as compared to the current cover. These are not polished, finished covers, just pics I took and played with in inkscape, to get a feel for placement and such. I know I would need to take the glare off of the number line and such.

Thanks in advance!

John


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

I think you really need to go with the genuine black-board solution;  whiteboards seem rather flaky. 

I think also you'll want to basically replicate your current cover but using a real blackboard and maybe real text (depends on how good your Inkscape skills are at making fake chalk writing).

Paul.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> OK, while we're baring our covers (and our souls), I'll toss this out for critiquing.
> Take a look at these 2 images, and tell me if you will what your thoughts are, especially as compared to the current cover. These are not polished, finished covers, just pics I took and played with in inkscape, to get a feel for placement and such. I know I would need to take the glare off of the number line and such.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> ...


Not sure I like it but given that you are looking at this as more of a concept than a finished project, here are the two thoughts that came immediately to mind: The one with the person in it makes it clearer that the text is supposed to be on a white board. The other one is just a nondescript white wall with some text superimposed. BOTH photographs need a serious boost to the gamma.

Camille


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.

Paul, not sure what you mean by "flaky," but I'm not sure blackboards, or greenboards are even in use anymore.  In Dallas ISD, where I work, there are nothing BUT whiteboards.

Camille, I'm a newbie to graphic design.  Please explain what "boosting the gamma" means.

Thanks!


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Well.. at Weatherford College, we're still using blackboards... but you know, it's the concept.. people relate to a blackboard more than they do a whiteboard.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> PS, I quite like your cover actually, simple, effective - does it have an Egyptian element to it?


It does, although it's not the main focus of the book. But it did inspire me to change the direction of the second book.


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

Oh boy. This thread is making me do some deep thinking.

I just created some ads for _Kismet's Kiss_ and experienced a mini version of this thread. My original idea was to use the font from my cover in the ad, but Hubby didn't like the font in the ad. I must say that I do like the (far more standard) font that I used instead. But that got me thinking about the cover, and I'm wondering whether the font is a mistake there, too.

Is it? And yes, I'm open to comments on the cover (font/images/everything). Please weigh in.

Also, Monique, I hear you about the dilemma of whether to use a cover that clearly shouts the genre or not. _Kiss_ blends fantasy and romance. Romance covers do usually have the couple on it, but I have no art skills and despaired of finding models at the usual royalty-free sites that would look enough like my characters (especially considering my fantasy setting, with the clothing of two very different cultures). One of the reasons I chose this cover was that I hoped it would be interesting without turning off fantasy readers, but now I wonder if it isn't working hard enough to attract romance readers, either.

A friend noticed a huge upshift in her fantasy romance's sales when she changed from what she called a "pretty cover" to one with a nekkid male chest on it. (And it was a sweet romance--no onscreen naughties.) But that kind of cover screams romance, and I assume that would be a turnoff to a portion of the fantasy audience.

I think my head hurts now.


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> Paul, not sure what you mean by "flaky," but I'm not sure blackboards, or greenboards are even in use anymore. In Dallas ISD, where I work, there are nothing BUT whiteboards.


FWIW, I think the blackboard (or greenboard, lol) is a memory/image/cultural phenomenon we all know--and so might trump whatever's actually being used now.

But take my opinion with a grain o' salt, since I haven't read your book!


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

P.S. Monique--I think your cover's beautiful.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Paul, not sure what you mean by "flaky," but I'm not sure blackboards, or greenboards are even in use anymore. In Dallas ISD, where I work, there are nothing BUT whiteboards.
> 
> Thanks!


I do some photography, so I could take a picture for you if you wanted. But yeah, the trick is finding an actual chalkboard. I think most of the schools have switched to the whiteboards. Maybe some sunday school rooms would still have them? 
You could check out Istock Photo or Shutterstock, too. They might have some good photos. I found this one, which I think would be great. (not sure how much they charge at shutterstock, but Istock is usually not too bad) If I could actually find a chalkboard, I could take a picture almost identical to it, replacing the letters with your title, saving you money.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Paul, not sure what you mean by "flaky," but I'm not sure blackboards, or greenboards are even in use anymore. In Dallas ISD, where I work, there are nothing BUT whiteboards.
> 
> ...


I assume you understand brightness and contrast. If you have a dull picture, you can increase the brightness, for instance. The problem with this is that it usually lightens your black areas in equal proportion to the midtones and then washes out the whites.

With advanced photo editing software (like Photoshop) you can often adjust the brightness in a curve rather than just "brighten" across the board. So with a picture like yours, where the lights at the top of the picture are the "white" and the white surfaces come out as dull gray, it's a good idea to boost only the midtones. You do that by raising the number on (or "boosting") the gamma. You may be able to do this in whatever photo handling software you use. Look for terms like "midtones" or "curves" as well as "gamma."

It's better if you get the exposure right in the first place, if you can. If you try to be careful not to get a light source or a bright reflection in the shot, this might help. (However you need sufficient light in the first place, so in a situation like a classroom, it may not be easy to do this.)

Camille


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

Regarding the black board vs white board discussion, I guess the important question would be which one would your target audience more identify with? Kids in school today or within the past decade maybe, go with the white board. High School class of 19_ _ go with the black board!


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 7, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> Paul, not sure what you mean by "flaky," but I'm not sure blackboards, or greenboards are even in use anymore. In Dallas ISD, where I work, there are nothing BUT whiteboards.


Well the green chalkboard is still in use in my classroom. I use it, along with an overhead projector and an infocus projector (projects what I have on my computer). When I go from one medium to another it is a method of refocusing the students--kind of like reset-mode. Maybe I'm old school, but I still have them (11th and 12th graders) occasionally go up to the chalkboard and write out answers to questions.

Terry


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

Dawn Judd said:


>


I think this one is perfect for your cover!

It would be very easy to remove the ABC and replace it with Learn Me Good... then your name could go at the bottom over the wooden table or in a box below that.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

That's a pretty good choice 911jason - assuming the text can be merged into it


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> Jazzpunk? Cool. I love steampunk.


I'm still not sure how to deal with what I envision. Steampunk tends to be a little more sf than I am interested in. I am weird. I like to write adventures (or even just plain dramas) that take place in alternative or mashup worlds - that have no other particular magic or sf elements. This one I would like to place in a world that is inspired by silent movie serials, and adventure fiction of the period.

Steampunk and Deiselpunk are both inspired by the science fiction AND regular adventures of their periods but they seem more technology based than I want to do. So I'm a little stuck on figuring out my approach. (I think the covers will be the least of my worries.)

Camille


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Cool.  Lots to think about, and a new image to play with.  But for now, it's bedtime.

Night all.


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

MrPLD said:


> That's a pretty good choice 911jason - assuming the text can be merged into it


I didn't find it, Dawn did! =)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> A friend noticed a huge upshift in her fantasy romance's sales when she changed from what she called a "pretty cover" to one with a nekkid male chest on it. (And it was a sweet romance--no onscreen naughties.) But that kind of cover screams romance, and I assume that would be a turnoff to a portion of the fantasy audience.
> 
> I think my head hurts now.


One thing you can do to attract that crossover audience is to add a touch of humor to a romancy cover. The thing that turns fantasy readers off of genre romance is that they are more cynical about it. A romance cover that says "smart!" will attract them. (This is true of the sf world in general. That's why those Doyle and MacDonald retro covers are effective - because they reference styles that the main readership see as kitschy-chic.)

(That is my other option for The Wife Of Freedom, I suppose - going for wink and a nod at the melodrama cover. Sigh. I'll never get that one right.)

Camille


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

This one might work too. It might be easier to add text to this one. Really, there's so many different things that can be done with your book.


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

I like that iStock image, Dawn.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

There are so many over there that I like.  That one wasn't badly priced, though.


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## ecaggiani (Sep 7, 2010)

I like that photo as well. Seems to fit, and I like the blurred writing in the background.

Ok, I'll open myself up for critique as well with the two covers I designed below


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks for the helpful comments, Camille and T.L.!

T.L., I'd love to know what it is about the font that you don't like, so I could look for something with different characteristics. I was going for a font with an exotic feel, but maybe I didn't hit the right look. Is it hard to read, or is it something else?


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Dawn Judd said:


>


If this photo is used, just make sure that you apply the text to either stand well clear of the board or, if going with the chalk option that you ensure the chalk is appropriately banded by the light on the board.

Paul.


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

T.L. Haddix said:


> I love the cover image for Kismet Kiss. I don't much care for the font, especially your name. It sort of fades into the background.


Well, duh. You already answered my question, LOL.

Hmm. I guess when I was designing it, I didn't really care whether my name was visible at thumbnail size or not. I figured the title was more important for a debut novel, and I was trying to make sure the image seen through the "doorway" was clear. But I'm learning about the value of author branding...


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

T.L. Haddix said:


> *snort* yeah, but I answered it again. I think I must be tired.


Heh, me too. I'll revisit this tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

One thing to remember when using clip art from places like iStockPhoto is that their license is not _really_ royalty free. If you read the license carefully on most of those sites, you have to start paying royalties if you sell a lot of books. Now, it's usually a very high number and most of us would not mind paying more if we sell that many.... But you do have to keep track and inform them.

Another source, which is actually owned by iStock Photo, is the Stock Xchange - http://www.sxc.hu/ - which is an open source library. Most of the stock there has been donated by artists and designers (and especially photographers) who created it for some other purpose (or took more photos than they need) and they just donate it for others. It's really meant to be an exchange. (Also, because most of this is "reference" photos and cast offs, you may have to look longer to find a quality photo, but there area lot there.)

You do have to watch the licensing there too - since some of the artists put restrictions on use. (Usually if they do, it's just that they want to be informed or want a written credit.) The site also does not provide signed model releases, so if you have a recognizable person in the photo, you may have to write to the artist for a release (or the model can sue you).

The other thing to watch out for on that site is that on every search, iStock Photo puts a row of premium pictures (i.e. ones you have to pay for) at the top and bottom of each page. The don't do this if you're looking at a particular artist's gallery though. I find it most fruitful to find a picture I like, and then check out the rest of the artist's work.

Camille


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Daringnovelist,

  Those are some good points to be made - definitely always verify the licence under which the photo is offered. I know for ours it was in the order of 10,000 impressions, at that level we would have no problems.

Paul


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> One of the reasons I chose this cover was that I hoped it would be interesting without turning off fantasy readers, but now I wonder if it isn't working hard enough to attract romance readers, either.
> 
> A friend noticed a huge upshift in her fantasy romance's sales when she changed from what she called a "pretty cover" to one with a nekkid male chest on it. (And it was a sweet romance--no onscreen naughties.) But that kind of cover screams romance, and I assume that would be a turnoff to a portion of the fantasy audience.


Your cover doesn't particularly scream "romance", no, but I like it. And your blurb addresses the "What is it?" question. Here's a question I have - do people browse by genre at Amazon? If I'm in a physical bookstore, I do, but at Amazon, I'm either
a) going specifically for something (searching for a favorite author, for instance)
b) Clicking through a link - lately those have been books that grab my eye here on KB
c) Following a "You might also like" while at Amazon

Anyway, back on target... sadly (or not) one of the things that romance novels almost universally have is what they call the "clinch". I know this because I read an article about romance covers a while back  I'm not really sure what differentiates a romance cover from an erotica cover, but then I don't really shop erotica. ANYWAY... I think if you want to have your book stand up and say "Hey! I'm a romance - look at me!" you've got to have something similar. You could maybe get away with just some eyes or a facial profile (just throwing out ideas) But taking one of my fave paranormal romance authors, Sherrilyn Kenyon, it's only been the past couple of books where she's stepped away from the standard romance cover, and the woman's on book 20 of her Dark-Hunter series now. Anyway, I'll try to dig up that article, if I can.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

DDP: Quick google search of 'romance covers clinch' turned up these articles:

http://jezebel.com/5090885/romance-novel-readers-love-the-clinch
http://www.likesbooks.com/covrtopc.html


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> One thing to remember when using clip art from places like iStockPhoto is that their license is not _really_ royalty free. If you read the license carefully on most of those sites, you have to start paying royalties if you sell a lot of books. Now, it's usually a very high number and most of us would not mind paying more if we sell that many.... But you do have to keep track and inform them.


Yes, it's like 500,000 or something like that. And if I read it correctly, it was for *printed* images, not for digital images. So I believe you have nothing to worry about unless you get picked up by a major publisher. (In which case they'll probably either redo the cover or pay the extra royalties.)

Vicki


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Yes, it's like 500,000 or something like that. And if I read it correctly, it was for *printed* images, not for digital images. So I believe you have nothing to worry about unless you get picked up by a major publisher. (In which case they'll probably either redo the cover or pay the extra royalties.)
> 
> Vicki


Most of them separate ebook rights from other kinds of electronic rights. (It's the pay per item that is the issue.) It's possible iStockPhoto has changed theirs. But always check this. And double-check it.

Camille


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> If this photo is used, just make sure that you apply the text to either stand well clear of the board or, if going with the chalk option that you ensure the chalk is appropriately banded by the light on the board.
> 
> Paul.


Definitely. There are a few people here who are really good with fonts.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Haha. Okay. It must be just me that thinks that Jack/Joe is constantly putting down all the self-published authors. I'll keep my opinions to myself in the future.


I always thought of it as telling people what they need to hear, but don't want to.

A put down is "you suck and you can't write your way out of a paper bag."

Telling someone to get outside help on a project is not a put down. It is a reality of the universe. Nobody...NOBODY...not on this forum, not in the traditional industry...not anywhere...is so talented that they can do everything themselves. And let's be grateful for that, because how boring would the world be if we didn't need each other. 

But this is the problem with too many self-publishers. They have this idea in their heads that either everything they do is perfect, or it is close enough and readers should simply ignore the flaws. Breaking that illusion is not a put down. It is a kick in the backside to force you to either man up (or woman up) and do things right.

There are enough cheerleaders in self-publishing to massage our egos. We also need to tough coaches that are going to kick our butts and make us perform.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Picking on me wasn't good enough? Now you're kicking me when I'm down? You are without a doubt the queen of mean.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Picking on me wasn't good enough? Now you're kicking me when I'm down? You are without a doubt the queen of mean.


It's the cowboy hat. Chicks love cowboy hats


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Arkali said:


> It's the cowboy hat. Chicks love cowboy hats


Tough love.


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## William L.K. (Aug 5, 2010)

lanfearl said:


> I understand that it can be expensive to hire someone to create something nice for your book. But it seriously looks like some of the work you are using is just clip art from Microsoft Word.
> 
> I also know that the quality of the writing has nothing to do with the cover, but when you are an indie author who is trying to get your name out there... people are going to look at your cover and laugh.


I do agree with you on this. In my opinion, cover art is probably the best way to have your book noticed. 
I know, for me personally, if the cover art does not grab my attention, It's doubtful I'll look into it any further.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Back on topic - now, this is just for romances, but it's a very popular paranormal romance series - Marjorie M. Liu's Dirk & Steele novels:
http://marjoriemliu.com/index.php?/novels/dirk-and-steele/

None of them feature a clinch, but they all have a somewhat titillating picture of a man or woman among a montage of other images from the book. I take it back - The Last Twilight has a clinch, but it's one of the montage'd images and this is actually the first time I've noticed it. It also looks like her upcoming novel has a clinch cover. Hrrrm.

Another wildly popular series - The Dark-Hunter books by Sherrilyn Kenyon. No clinches, but they each show a man's face as the prominent image up until her last three novels which feature a stylized symbol:
http://www.dark-hunter.com/series.php?id=7
I'm guessing they feel they've gotten her brand big enough to do "different" covers at this point. Of interest, between these two covers















I prefer the first one (bright red, with the book and rose). Maybe just because that's the edition I had, dunno. But, in fairness, I'm not a fan of her covers.

Then there's the somewhat new romance novel trend which is man's nekkid chest:
http://alyssaday.com/books.html
http://www.alexismorgan.com/paladins.html
Truthfully, I'm not a fan.

Anyway, back to the Kismet cover - I think, maybe, if you did a semi-transparent woman's face blended in so that it's somewhat in the background, that it might look more romance-y. Just my opinion, but I hope it helps.

ETA:
'Nother article on clinches, but this one talking more about the "updated clinch"  Still, interesting info if you're doing romance:
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/print/20081117/10857-the-forever-clinch-.html


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Picking on me wasn't good enough? Now you're kicking me when I'm down? You are without a doubt the queen of mean.


I prefer Sith Witch.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Arkali said:


> Of interest, between these two covers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mentioned up-thread I don't really pay that much attention to 'cover-as-defining-genre'. However, between those two -- the one on the left, would tell me it's probably paranormal romance. It just has that undefinable 'flavor' -- the guy, the font of the title, the coloring. While the one on the right, I would just think 'romance' without the paranormal, again because of the title font, the rose, the coloring. Two totally different projections of the same book, IMO.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Steph H said:


> I mentioned up-thread I don't really pay that much attention to 'cover-as-defining-genre'. However, between those two -- the one on the left, would tell me it's probably paranormal romance. It just has that undefinable 'flavor' -- the guy, the font of the title, the coloring. While the one on the right, I would just think 'romance' without the paranormal, again because of the title font, the rose, the coloring. Two totally different projections of the same book, IMO.


I'll agree with you on that. Also of note - at the time of the red cover, I don't believe she was a big name, and her Dark-Hunter series was a gleam in her eye, so to speak. Notice that the title is more prominent than the author's name. However, in the re-make, if you look at the page I linked of hers which shows all of her titles, the redone cover fits more in the "look and feel" of the rest of the series AND her name is much more prominent in that cover.

ETA: The red cover is a really blurry image, too. I'll see if I can find another real quick.









As for covers defining genres... I'm of the opinion that if you're an unknown author your cover needs to reflect the genre you're writing in. Just my opinion, but there have been a couple of books by authors here - Space Junque, for one - that I completely dismissed because a glance at the cover led me to believe it wasn't in a genre that I enjoy. Thankfully, LK made a post somewhere in which she specified it was futuristic / paranormal romance and I picked it up based on that. I say thankfully because had she not I'd have missed out on a great book that just sold her entire series to me. THAT is the power of a cover, in my opinion.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

You also have to be careful about some of these "professional" artists. Many still do cover art like the internet hasn't been invented yet, and don't stop to consider how the cover is going to work as a thumbnail. Just because you pay good money, doesn't mean you are going to get guaranteed results. I've seen this phenomenon far too many times to buy into the whole "you have to pay for it if it's going to be any good" meme.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> You also have to be careful about some of these "professional" artists. Many still do cover art like the internet hasn't been invented yet, *and don't stop to consider how the cover is going to work as a thumbnail*. Just because you pay good money, doesn't mean you are going to get guaranteed results.


I'll agree with that. When I was doing web sites professionally about 10 years ago I'd see a lot of sites done by professional graphic artists who were pros in the print world. They had ZERO concept of what would work on the internet, though, and 9 times out of 10 their web sites would be so huge and bulky that they'd take forever to download. This was back in the day when dial-up was the norm, too, so it was especially painful. Sure, it looked great -- if the viewer would actually wait 5 minutes for the download. Having a background in print graphics is great and helpful, but it's not the same, by any stretch of the imagination, as web graphics.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Arkali said:


> As for covers defining genres... I'm of the opinion that if you're an unknown author your cover needs to reflect the genre you're writing in. Just my opinion, but there have been a couple of books by authors here - Space Junque, for one - that I completely dismissed because a glance at the cover led me to believe it wasn't in a genre that I enjoy. Thankfully, LK made a post somewhere in which she specified it was futuristic / paranormal romance and I picked it up based on that. I say thankfully because had she not I'd have missed out on a great book that just sold her entire series to me. THAT is the power of a cover, in my opinion.


[ emphasis added ]

I hope I've learned this lesson. I love my Space Junque cover, and I do think it fits the book. BUT the point about fitting genre is huge. I wonder how many romance readers I've lost because of my cover?

Fortunately, the cover for the next book shouts paranormal exquisiteness (I believe).


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> [ emphasis added ]
> 
> I hope I've learned this lesson. I love my Space Junque cover, and I do think it fits the book. BUT the point about fitting genre is huge. I wonder how many romance readers I've lost because of my cover?
> 
> Fortunately, the cover for the next book shouts paranormal exquisiteness (I believe).


It's a beautiful cover, but you're right that it doesn't indicate the genre all that well. (It says speculative fiction to me - or "chick sf.")

The interesting thing I've noticed about romance covers these days is the emphasis on pure torsos. No faces. It's like men as sex objects - not people. Is it a matter of what goes around comes around?

Camille


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

I think there is a lot to that, making men into sex objects.

Actually, there isn't a whole lot of clinchy sex in SJ. I wanted to avoid the trad cover style because reader disappointment is never a good thing -- you never want to promise something you don't deliver!

But the man torso covers work -- just ask Kristen Painter, ha! I think Ellen Fisher's Isn't It Romantic was in the doldrums until she switched to the MT™


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> [ emphasis added ]
> 
> I hope I've learned this lesson. I love my Space Junque cover, and I do think it fits the book. BUT the point about fitting genre is huge. I wonder how many romance readers I've lost because of my cover?
> 
> Fortunately, the cover for the next book shouts paranormal exquisiteness (I believe).


I think it's especially an issue because of your title, too. The title and the cover seem to say, "Sci-Fi" or space opera. It's a book I'd be willing to pick up and read based on what you have now, but then again I don't read romances (not usually, anyway). I do find a romantic space opera intriguing, though.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> It's a beautiful cover, but you're right that it doesn't indicate the genre all that well. (It says speculative fiction to me - or "chick sf.")
> 
> The interesting thing I've noticed about romance covers these days is the emphasis on pure torsos. No faces. It's like men as sex objects - not people. Is it a matter of what goes around comes around?


Definitely agree with the first part. And LK - hope you don't mind that I "called you out" - I did so because 1) You DO have a beautiful cover and 2) I LOVE LOVE LOVED your book 

As for point two - you're definitely right, Camille. In fact, in almost all of the links I made to pages where romance authors have their covers listed, the male torso is used over and over again. The only thing really differentiating one cover from the next is whatever the background happens to be. Personally, I'm not a fan of the MT - maybe because of the objectification? though I haven't analyzed my *ugh* factor on that.

Oh, as an aside - I just finished "Not What She Seems" and am working on the sample for Monique's book right now. I'll be getting that when the sample runs out, rest assured  Again, though, as with LK's book - it was your blurb that piqued my interest, not the cover.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Moses -- you've got it right. I've mentioned before, my editor says SJ has a Firefly vibe to it. Definitely space opera. But there is a romance in the book.

But then, there's a huge romance in _Dune _between Paul and Chani. I don't think I like novels without some romance in them, no matter what genre.

Arkali -- you can call me out anytime with those kinds of comments! Seriously, your point is really important. We need to at the least consider very carefully the genre message we send with our cover art.

Signs and symbols mean something.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Oooh.  Firefly vibe. ::ears perk up::


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

> Here's a question I have - do people browse by genre at Amazon? If I'm in a physical bookstore, I do, but at Amazon, I'm either
> a) going specifically for something (searching for a favorite author, for instance)
> b) Clicking through a link - lately those have been books that grab my eye here on KB
> c) Following a "You might also like" while at Amazon


Thank you for the compliments, Arkali.  And you raised some good questions in your post. I usually find new books through word of mouth, or occasionally through "customers who bought this also bought" feature on Amazon. I joined Goodreads and Shelfari recently, and I think the recommendations of people I friend/fan will be a good source, too. A good cover can catch my eye, but as with most of us, the blurb and/or reviews will push me one way or the other.

Know why the "clinch" cover is a staple of romance? I heard this from one of the big authors a few years back and it makes sense to me, though I have no way of verifying it. Apparently, publishers found that the clinch was popular with the people (guys, mostly, especially decades ago) who stocked books at bookstores/grocery stores/box stores. The deeper the clinch (the more horizontal the woman and the more boobage/thigh shown), the more they liked it and the more books they'd shelve and put face-out--so the more of that book the store would sell. Hence the popularity on book covers, although many women don't like them and preferred either to not read their romances in public or to put book covers on them.

Sherrilyn's cover change is interesting. I had the original. Like Steph H, I prefer it. I wouldn't have bought the new one based just on the cover, but I'm not a huge fan of dark paranormal, which is the vibe that cover gives me.

Thanks also for the ideas, everyone. I'll keep them in mind. Back when I was putting the cover together, I trolled all the usual image sites to find people who looked even remotely like my hero and heroine, and found almost no one. A true clinch is out (since no one will have the right clothing for my fantasy world), which would have meant hiring an artist to draw them from scratch (a wonderful option, but one I can't afford just yet.) So I looked for profiles or faces, but didn't find much I could use, and I'm picky enough to not want people who really look like my vision of the characters. I did find one great image of a woman who could be my heroine and wanted to use it, but it was $300 just for that one image! Yeah, I had to pass. And there's a couple on another site that I'd love to use, but that particular image has been used again and again on other romance covers. *headdesk*

Speaking of cover similarities, check this out: http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2010/09/30/cover-fail-lacking-in-originality/


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> Definitely space opera. But there is a romance in the book.


That's something I struggle with, at least, understanding reader perception. What exactly counts as "paranormal?" And what exactly counts as "romance?"

It seems that my stuff had to be "sci-fi" because there's space travel. But it's not _about_ space travel. As for romance, it is part love story with complications, so I often wonder if that in some way counts. The guy has amnesia, including memory of his true love, and another female character takes advantage of it. Well, all things blow up eventually (drama, right?) when the truth comes out. So during all this "space travel" (not that much actually), there's a love triangle going on, and lots of sexual tension rising. Romance? Or not? And since these characters are immortals who reincarnate into manufactured adult bodies, is that anything near paranormal? Or is paranormal only ghosts and vampires? Or aliens? I don't quite get it. But like others, I share the same concern -- are the covers accurately conveying the genre?

At any rate, this thread has veered into a nice direction, this talk of genre and our covers. Fascinating, particularly when readers chime in. I love that. Who knows best, right? Not us authors, at least, not this one. I really enjoy hearing the opinion of readers. It helps me get on the right track finding my audience.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> Sherrilyn's cover change is interesting. I had the original. Like Steph H, I prefer it. I wouldn't have bought the new one based just on the cover, but I'm not a huge fan of dark paranormal, which is the vibe that cover gives me.
> 
> Speaking of cover similarities, check this out: http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2010/09/30/cover-fail-lacking-in-originality/


Hah! That's hilarious about the stock-boys 

Just to clarify the Fantasy Lover Cover - the red one is the original, or if not the original, the older one. When they did the re-print they did the one with the guy and the darker background and matched it up with the Dark-Hunter novels (Fantasy Lover is a prequel / tie-in for those who haven't read it). I'm thinking I didn't have enough coffee in my system when I posted that this morning 

And... off to check out that linkie


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Cate Rowan said:


> Thanks also for the ideas, everyone. I'll keep them in mind.


I didn't read all of the comments made about yours but just wanted to kick in that I like it...but would agree that the fonts could use a tweak. Maybe a different font type or maybe just thicken/bold it, but perhaps darker for sure, especially author name. I like the overall image and 'feel' though.

In fact, I've been meaning to check it out but hadn't yet....just did, and one-clickety-clicked on it. You sneaky authors!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> That's something I struggle with, at least, understanding reader perception. What exactly counts as "paranormal?" And what exactly counts as "romance?"
> 
> It seems that my stuff had to be "sci-fi" because there's space travel. But it's not _about_ space travel. As for romance, it is part love story with complications, so I often wonder if that in some way counts. The guy has amnesia, including memory of his true love, and another female character takes advantage of it. Well, all things blow up eventually (drama, right?) when the truth comes out. So during all this "space travel" (not that much actually), there's a love triangle going on, and lots of sexual tension rising. Romance? Or not? And since these characters are immortals who reincarnate into manufactured adult bodies, is that anything near paranormal? Or is paranormal only ghosts and vampires? Or aliens? I don't quite get it. But like others, I share the same concern -- are the covers accurately conveying the genre?
> 
> At any rate, this thread has veered into a nice direction, this talk of genre and our covers. Fascinating, particularly when readers chime in. I love that. Who knows best, right? Not us authors, at least, not this one. I really enjoy hearing the opinion of readers. It helps me get on the right track finding my audience.


I dunno, William, but your book sounds interesting 

As for defining the genre - and this is just this readers opinion, though I've seen it written elsewhere:
A "Romance" novel is mainly about getting the Hero and heroine (H/h) together, and their relationship. Regardless of what else happens - action, drama, sex, soap opera, suspense, those two have to get together. Additionally, they have to get their Happily Ever After (HEA) - if they don't, "it might be a love story but it isn't a romance. I'd pretty much agree with that. Romances run the gamut, but at the end boy gets girl and they... live Happily Ever After.

Paranormal Romance is actually a sub-genre, just like historical romance or contemporary romance. Pretty much ANYTHING unnatural (read, make-believe) kicks it into PNR territory. This includes but is not limited to: faeries, vampires, shape-shifters, psionics, ghosts, time travel, greek gods, made up gods, magic, genies/djinn... you name it.

Anyway, I don't know what genre your books fall into, but I'm getting a sample  First book in your sig is the one to start with?


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

William, if you're looking for a definition of romance by today's expectations, I think you can start with: the main focus is a love story with an HEA or an HFN (happy for now). In romance, the relationship is the focus of the story arc, not a side story -- which is why no one would call _Dune _a romance, despite the great (in my opinion) love story between Paul and Chani.

I'm not good at classifications. When I'm writing, I don't think of them at all because I'm just thinking of the story. This may or may not be a good thing.

I understand your frustration about whether to call something sci-fi just because stuff happens in space. And hard core sci-fi readers might not like the romance part.

I love the word paranormal, but I'm not too happy about it being loaded up with expectations of vampires and werewolves. I've got shapeshifters and gods and other beasties to come, but not a vampire or were in the land. I'm still calling the books paranormal.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Not all covers please everyone. I've had my fair share of criticism of mine. One blogger noted, "It's one of those CGI animation type images that's so out-of-place on a book cover." Apparently he didn't realize the illustrations are hand-drawn. Okay, using a Wacom tablet and Photoshop, so they're not completely analog, but there's an artist behind that pen (Alan Gutierrez). It ain't computer generated when a person draws. But, hey, any attention is better than no attention. The slam of my cover probably sold some books.


William, I think you could do much better than your current covers. They definitely say "self-published" to me, and not in a good way. I've read enough of your posts here to know that you must be a good writer with a lot of writing experience, but I don't think your covers reflect that fact. Just my opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind about this.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> I love the word paranormal, but I'm not too happy about it being loaded up with expectations of vampires and werewolves. I've got shapeshifters and gods and other beasties to come, but not a vampire or were in the land. I'm still calling the books paranormal.


I think you're safe, LK  Like I said, I've seen everything. Nalini Singh's Psi-Changeling books don't have vampires (psionics and shape-shifters, check!), and Kathleen Nance's Djinn series have no vamps, either. Lots of magic, though, but no vamps  There are too many series to name, but I'd say a good portion either don't have vamps or if they do, they play a small part.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Agreed, paranormal isn't limited to vamps and werewhatevers.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Whew, good! I do worry about reader expectations. 

That's another reason reader reviews are so helpful to other readers at Amazon (cross-subject) ha!


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> William, I think you could do much better than your current covers. They definitely say "self-published" to me, and not in a good way. I've read enough of your posts here to know that you must be a good writer with a lot of writing experience, but I don't think your covers reflect that fact. Just my opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind about this.


Errrm, I dunno. They seriously remind me of Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant covers... 








and that's pretty "hard" sci-fi, I think (ie. physics and such are actually paid attention to). Of course, that's also a cover from 1983... 



Steph H said:


> Agreed, paranormal isn't limited to vamps and *werewhatevers.*


Okay - that was worth the price of admission...


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)




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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Of course, that's also a cover from 1983...


Yeah and I am going to guess that he's not deliberately going for a retro look; even if he was, I wouldn't think he'd be accomplishing that look with his covers.

I just think it looks like a "self-published" cover. The art is interesting, but I think it looks like a very dated cartoon.

William is one of the people on this board whose posts I read religiously, because I think he's very smart and knowledgeable, but I don't think his covers do _him_ justice. Here's a larger version:










William, I hope you like honesty. I'm just giving my opinion, though.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> William, I think you could do much better than your current covers. They definitely say "self-published" to me, and not in a good way. I've read enough of your posts here to know that you must be a good writer with a lot of writing experience, but I don't think your covers reflect that fact. Just my opinion, but there's no doubt in my mind about this.


I actually have to disagree with this. Could the covers be improved? Probably. But they don't scream self-published to me. In fact, I find them quite impressive because they feature original artwork that is really very good. No stock images with text pasted on top. They seem to fit the genre well, and I have no major problems with the typography.

This is coming from someone who has _definitely_ picked out a number of indie covers as being amateurish or just plain bad. I wouldn't put William's covers into either category. Again, I think tweaks could probably be made, but seeming "self-published" in a bad way? Not in my opinion.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

flanneryohello said:


> I actually have to disagree with this. Could the covers be improved? Probably. But they don't scream self-published to me. In fact, I find them quite impressive because they feature original artwork that is really very good. No stock images with text pasted on top. They seem to fit the genre well, and I have no major problems with the typography.
> 
> This is coming from someone who has _definitely_ picked out a number of indie covers as being amateurish or just plain bad. I wouldn't put William's covers into either category. Again, I think tweaks could probably be made, but seeming "self-published" in a bad way? Not in my opinion.


This. We each have different opinions, though. That said - the covers make me instantly think "Star Wars - Space Opera" - if that's the genre, great. If not... perhaps a re-think.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> William, I think you could do much better than your current covers...
> 
> William, I hope you like honesty. I'm just giving my opinion, though.


Wow. Thank you, Moses. Yes, I do like the honesty, and my respect for you just increased ten-fold. I am not the sort who wants to play patty-cake with anybody's ego, especially my own. I'm here to learn, and I'm listening. Anyone else feel the same? You can't offend me.

About the retro, yes I was trying to touch a flavor of that. Is that a wise choice? Questionable in this day and age. But I am curious about any specifics that say "self-published" to you. Or it just the dated look? All comments are welcome. Like I said, this is a journey of learning, and I don't learn by listening to only myself.

Thanks again, Moses. I mean it. That kind of honesty is HUGE in my world.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

flanneryohello said:


> I actually have to disagree with this. Could the covers be improved? Probably. But they don't scream self-published to me.


I'd be more than happy to be the only person with the opinion I shared. It wasn't fun to say it, but I think sometimes we need to speak up and try to help each other out, knowing that we might be dead wrong.

I don't think his covers look like covers that a major publishing house would use, and I think they quickly identify the work as self-pubbed. I think his covers are an example of what this thread was initially about: an indie writer who could do much better for himself with a higher-quality cover.

For me, it's not that the covers are bad as much as I think he could do much better. Just my opinion.

EDIT: I'll respond to William now ...


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Arkali said:


> This. We each have different opinions, though. That said - the covers make me instantly think "Star Wars - Space Opera" - if that's the genre, great. If not... perhaps a re-think.


I had the same reaction. But after reading what you said about the books above, William, it sounds like your stuff is more sophisticated -- something closer to the new Battlestar Glactica.

Maybe you need something less cartoony and darker?


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Arkali said:


> the covers make me instantly think "Star Wars - Space Opera"


Yep -- a "hero's quest" based plot, like Star Wars, the inspiration of which is partly drawn from 'Hero with a Thousand Faces' by Joseph Campbell. I was similarly inspired.

Like Star Wars, it happens a long time ago, just not far away. It happens in this galaxy.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> I'd be more than happy to be the only person with the opinion I shared. It wasn't fun to say it, but I think sometimes we need to speak up and try to help each other out, knowing that we might be dead wrong.
> 
> I don't think his covers look like covers that a major publishing house would use, and I think they quickly identify the work as self-pubbed. I think his covers are an example of what this thread was initially about: an indie writer who could do much better for himself with a higher-quality cover.
> 
> For me, it's not that the covers are bad as much as I think he could do much better. Just my opinion.


I think offering constructive criticism, and opinion, is very valuable. Trust me, I'm not exactly someone who shies away from doing just that, especially when it comes to writing/publishing. This is just a case where opinion differs. Without conducting some sort of poll, it's hard to say what the majority of people would think about this particular issue.

Like I said, I definitely think these covers could use some tweaking to bring them more in line with the type of covers a major publishing house might use. I just feel that they aren't as obviously "self-published" as many other covers I've seen. They are competently done. Perhaps not a Random House cover, but there are far more small publishers in the world than major ones, and I think this cover compares favorably with the offerings from those smaller publishers.

So for me, it's a nice cover. The best I've ever seen? No. And yes, definitely a bit retro, a bit cartoonish. I haven't read the story. If that's not the tone of the story, then perhaps rethinking is in order. But on the order of strict mechanics and not looking like something that was slapped together in MS Paint, I give them a pass. They're not bad at all...in my opinion!


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## Basil Sands (Aug 18, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> I am curious about any specifics that say "self-published" to you. Or it just the dated look? All comments are welcome. Like I said, this is a journey of learning, and I don't learn by listening to only myself.


I rather like the covers of your books shown here William. They are definitely not self-published looking. When I saw them though, I thought they were Manga comics.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Arkali said:


> As for defining the genre...


Thanks, Arkali, that helps. Based on what you describe, the work is very close to paranormal romance. The only thing that might hold it back some is that the love story part is perhaps 50% or less of the tale, while a lot is spent on the hero's own internal struggles (and resulting external struggles). Not being any expert on "romance," I wouldn't be a good judge of whether to say I have enough to quality. About Happily-Ever-After, not in books 1 or 2 (happy for now, and not happy at all), but HEA is realized in the final book (Resonance, book 3) after all the characters reincarnate on Earth, and at last the two lovers are reunited (after much torture by the author, of course).



Arkali said:


> First book in your sig is the one to start with?


Yep. Awakening.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Wow. Thank you, Moses. Yes, I do like the honesty, and my respect for you just increased ten-fold. I am not the sort who wants to play patty-cake with anybody's ego, especially my own. I'm here to learn, and I'm listening. Anyone else feel the same? You can't offend me.
> 
> About the retro, yes I was trying to touch a flavor of that. Is that a wise choice? Questionable in this day and age. But I am curious about any specifics that say "self-published" to you. Or it just the dated look? All comments are welcome. Like I said, this is a journey of learning, and I don't learn by listening to only myself.
> 
> Thanks again, Moses. I mean it. That kind of honesty is HUGE in my world.


Thanks for taking what I said in the right spirit, William.

For me, I'd give your book 1's cover a pass on its own (though not book 2), BUT after reading the description it still doesn't feel like a good fit to me:



> Imagine a world where death is merely an inconvenience. A new body awaits and we resume living, fully aware of the past. Every love, talent and distaste, retained from one life to the next. But this immortal paradise has a price -- eternal life as slaves, oppressed by masters who forbid individuality, creative expression, and free thinking.
> 
> A band of rebels refuses to conform, but for a population that reincarnates, the government is powerless to eliminate insurgents. Putting them to death is useless. The rebels will return, again and again. The final solution -- perpetual amnesia. Kill their memory of past lives, and banish the rebels to a lonely corner of the galaxy.
> 
> ...


Now after reading that (I hadn't read it until now), I am flat out going to read your book, or at the very least, the sample ... in fact, I just downloaded your Kindle sample and read the first page. More on that in a sec.

Here's the cover, which by the way looks better than the one you have in your sig line because of the text/font differences:










My only issue on this one is that it's cartoonish, and that may or may not fit the depth of your story. After reading the description and your first page, I think it probably doesn't. Your writing, IMO, is passionate, creative, and mature. I like to read good stories in which the writing itself entertains me (see: Scott Nicholson). Yours is also like that for me, but I wouldn't have guessed it from your cover.

Your second cover (the one I showed in a previous post above, not in this post), though, I think goes over the top with too many different elements and images. Here's what my gut says about your book 2 cover (uncensored): 80's cartoon, probably bad writing. Yet those conclusions would be _dead wrong_. The only way I personally like your book 2 cover is if it's intended for YA or middle grade kids. It looks like something I would've watched as a kid in the early 80's, like G.I. Joe.

In short, my feeling is the covers don't do a good job of representing you or what I've seen about your books. I agree with LK, something less cartoonish and darker, or just something more mature. My intuition gets an image of an actual photo of your MC holding a gun (or whatever he'd hold), something like a Han Solo/Harrison Ford shot. I wonder if you could get someone attractive to pose with a gun and have a photographer take pictures of him? Just a wild idea to give you another something to chew on. Something like this:


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

Steph H said:


> I didn't read all of the comments made about yours but just wanted to kick in that I like it...but would agree that the fonts could use a tweak. Maybe a different font type or maybe just thicken/bold it, but perhaps darker for sure, especially author name. I like the overall image and 'feel' though.
> 
> In fact, I've been meaning to check it out but hadn't yet....just did, and one-clickety-clicked on it. You sneaky authors!


Ooh! Thanks, Steph! And LOL on the







. That smiley's about to shout "Get off my lawn!"

So I'm getting the impression that people like the _Kismet's Kiss_ cover image (even though it's not genre-specific), but the font isn't doing the right job.

I'll go play with some more fonts and see if I can get something legible in there.

Does anyone know of a font store where I can make mockups? I don't just mean being able to type in the words I want to see what they'd look like in that font--a lot of places allow that--but being able to specify the words' color, the background color, etc.--so I could copy and paste it in low-res to see if it will look right on the cover. Most fonts I've considered buying are $20-30 or more, so I've been reluctant to buy without being sure it will look right at the size and color I need.

Or I could just win the lottery. Would solve a lot of issues, actually...


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

I rather like William's covers. FWIW, I never felt they screamed Indie. _Apotheosis_ does seem a smidge busy, but they're both attractive to me.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Thanks, Arkali, that helps. Based on what you describe, the work is very close to paranormal romance. The only thing that might hold it back some is that the love story part is perhaps 50% or less of the tale, while a lot is spent on the hero's own internal struggles (and resulting external struggles). Not being any expert on "romance," I wouldn't be a good judge of whether to say I have enough to quality. About Happily-Ever-After, not in books 1 or 2 (happy for now, and not happy at all), but HEA is realized in the final book (Resonance, book 3) after all the characters reincarnate on Earth, and at last the two lovers are reunited (after much torture by the author, of course).
> 
> Yep. Awakening.


Based on that, I would NOT categorize it as paranormal romance, then - you'll have some hacked-off romance readers  Not that it's not good, but... well, firstly - I'm not claiming to be an expert, by any stretch, but I've been reading romances for 20 years. Paranormal Romance for at least 10. Couple of things romance readers expect (well, at least THIS romance reader):
1) The main story (the H/h discovering their HEA) is self-contained in one book. There may be a story arc that spans 20 novels, but the main story is resolved in each book.
2) Lots of relationship conflict. Even if the author doesn't get smutty with the sex scenes (not trying to offend anyone, but a large number of romances feature VERY graphic and detailed sex scenes) but does a more "closed door" or "saving themselves" approach, there's still lots of sexual attraction / tension.

I downloaded the sample of book 1, because I'm actually fascinated now  I'm working on... ARRRGH... brain just died... time travel paranormal romance by Monique... up-thread... cover has gears on it.... ummels brain: No use. Anyway, once I finish that, I'm going to start your book.

Anyway - from what you've said, I'm thinking Space Opera is how you'd want to market. But if you don't mind my input / driving you nuts I'd be happy to offer feedback after I finish


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> Most fonts I've considered buying are $20-30


Girl... where are you shopping fonts? I'll take a look when I get "home" (I work from home but have a separate office, so it's a short commute ) and post the link to a font site. Maybe they'll have something that catches your eye.

And... I love your cover. BUT! Anything exotic gets me at hello - whether it's American Indian imagery (personal favorite) or the Arabian Nights feel of your cover. Celtic knots? :drool: Yeah, I'm hopeless. Hubby tells me I'm a salesman's dream...


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Thanks for taking what I said in the right spirit, William.


You're welcome, Moses. Keep it coming, any time. Also, breezing past the many sudden messages, I didn't get a chance to say thanks about your other comment regarding my posts here. Nice. I appreciate that.



MosesSiregarIII said:


> Here's the cover, which by the way looks better than the one you have in your sig line because of the text/font differences:


The sig line lately is some images I'm experimenting with getting all the text legible in thumbnail form. TOUGH to do. The print editions look fine font-wise, but the author name simply disappears in thumbnail. If you check Amazon, the print editions still have the original covers. But anyway...



MosesSiregarIII said:


> My only issue on this one is that it's cartoonish, and that may or may not fit the depth of your story... In short, my feeling is the covers don't do a good job of representing you or what I've seen about your books... something less cartoonish and darker, or just something more mature.


Funny because this is the same thing the "other" person inside of me has already said before (we wrestle a lot). And it's difficult to say how "dark and mature" the story is. Mature as far as it's not kid-safe in all places (exotic dance club and one sex scene in the first book, not so much emphasis needed after that). Mature in that it deals with deep subjects, philosophical concepts, and allegories to social issues, but also immature in that it has plenty of silliness between it all (sometimes I just can't help myself, but fortunately for readers, I have a good editor who doesn't hesitate to strike out entire paragraphs when called for).

Also funny that you put up the Han Solo picture. I dress my character similar to that, black vest most noticeably though my guy prefers jeans.

But anyway, back to dark and mature. It does get dark, more so in the second book (very dark). But still lots of laughs. A reader recently wrote to me about the first two books. She was somewhat dumbfounded about how I "slowed her down," as she put it -- not in a bad way, she said. Just that she normally tears through books, but mine made her really "think" about it all, a lot. She couldn't put her finger on it (heck, I can't, either) and she's well educated, experienced in journalism, so it's not like she shouldn't be able to identity why a book does what it does. Anyway, she summed it up by saying the story was full of "deep thinking camouflaged in action and humor." A line I have used to promote the work, since it's dear to my heart, the words being from the mouth of a reader. Always good stuff.

So is it dark? How mature? I'm too close to it to make that determination, you can understand that. But about making/using other covers, it was not outside my considerations anyway. I'm a tinkerer to begin with, and even before I commissioned these covers (soon to commission the third either way), I had some darker ideas. MUCH darker. But I don't want it to come across as horror, either (gotten that before due to the title). Ice and electromagnetic weapons are integral to the story, so crackling arcs and frozen faces are not outside the realm of this tale. Lots of ideas...

ANYHOW, all this gets me thinking, or really, stirs up thoughts I've had off and on anyway. I thank you again for taking the plunge, and having the courage to speak your mind. I super appreciate that.

The beauty of this journey is that we don't have to call it done today. Plenty of tweaking is within our reach every tomorrow.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> Does anyone know of a font store where I can make mockups? I don't just mean being able to type in the words I want to see what they'd look like in that font--a lot of places allow that--but being able to specify the words' color, the background color, etc.--so I could copy and paste it in low-res to see if it will look right on the cover. Most fonts I've considered buying are $20-30 or more, so I've been reluctant to buy without being sure it will look right at the size and color I need.


http://www.1001freefonts.com
Some are real dogs, but most are nice  Hopefully you'll spot something you like


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Based on that, I would NOT categorize it as paranormal romance, then - you'll have some hacked-off romance readers.


Good call, thanks. I kinda thought the same. If you're not something completely, be careful. My stuff is perhaps too many things, but at times I hate getting pegged into any category. To me the genre is "people." Sci-fi is the stage, no less than the Old West is the stage, or a fantasy world is the stage. The story isn't about spaceships. It's not even about war, although one is going on, and spaceships are around. I like to write about the people and their problems, not gadgets or technology. But being present in the story, the tale is stamped with that genre. Just how it is.

Best I've come up with is Past Life Space Opera. Seems about right. It's a story about forgetting how to reincarnate.



Arkali said:


> 1) The main story (the H/h discovering their HEA) is self-contained in one book...
> 
> 2) Lots of relationship conflict ... there's still lots of sexual attraction / tension.


The story fails hands down on number one. But not number two. The first book has the most sexual tension, in the first two-thirds. And again, book three has more again in the later half but nothing to match book one (where "sex" is a topic and its reason to exist as an urge I am trying to 'show' not tell).

While I wouldn't categorize my story as romance, as you have so well clarified (thanks, by the way), I do believe those with interest in romance might enjoy the story. It's not overboard on all the "boy" stuff. Some action, some sci-fi, but more about people. Is "interpersonal relationships" a genre? It should be.



Arkali said:


> I'd be happy to offer feedback after I finish


As always, I would greatly appreciate all feedback. And remember, say it straight -- you cannot offend me.


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## Cate Rowan (Jun 11, 2010)

Arkali said:


> http://www.1001freefonts.com
> Some are real dogs, but most are nice  Hopefully you'll spot something you like


I love me some free! Thanks much. 

RE author branding, I've thought about using various Middle Easternesque doorways as cover frames for additional books in this series, plus more Celtic-looking ones for another series set on the same fantasy world. I suppose it would all depend on whether I could get the right look for the doorways, but they seem like possible branding for me--_hypothetically_, anyway. LOL.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Good call, thanks. I kinda thought the same. If you're not something completely, be careful. My stuff is perhaps too many things, but at times I hate getting pegged into any category. To me the genre is "people." Sci-fi is the stage, no less than the Old West is the stage, or a fantasy world is the stage. The story isn't about spaceships. It's not even about war, although one is going on, and spaceships are around. I like to write about the people and their problems, not gadgets or technology. But being present in the story, the tale is stamped with that genre. Just how it is.


I have a number of things that I write that are the same way. And I think at a certain point, you just have to go with it. Personally I love your covers - I can't say what good they do for marketing, but maybe that's okay. They don't look like a particular genre, and the books they cover AREN'T a particular genre.

I said something up thread about creating new expectations and branding (and I think you said something nice about that post in reply) - this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're going to color between the lines, then (to mix a metaphor) following the beaten path is a short cut. But if you're not coloring between the lines, there are no short cuts. There is no best advice. You're really on your own. All the rest of us can do is give reactions and maybe some guesses of our own to supplement yours.

But here's what I think (and this may sound risky and arrogant): You're going to have to train your readers. Which means you're going to have to win them over one at a time until a sufficient number of them "get" it and know what to expect from you, and then they start to give what you do a name, so that other, less intrepid souls can "get" it too. That how new genres are born. That's how steampunk started. And that's how paranormal romance started, really.

How to do that is a discussion for another thread, but IMHO, the aspects of your covers that hurt you now will help with this - because they are a part of your new "brand."

Camille


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> ... if you're not coloring between the lines, there are no short cuts. There is no best advice. You're really on your own.
> 
> But here's what I think (and this may sound risky and arrogant):...


A fascinating perspective I hadn't considered (too busy considering the present, I suppose). And not arrogant at all (some of us are cured of mistaking confidence for arrogance). No, not arrogant at all, in fact, that reader I described in the last post said something very similar, regarding how I may be viewed.

Now my mind has that tingly feeling when an idea comes knocking, thanks to the wise words of another. Create a genre, eh? (grin growing). Whenever you feel the gumption to start a thread about how to create a genre, let me know. I'll be there.

Another great post, Camille. I like the way you think.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Funny because this is the same thing the "other" person inside of me has already said before (we wrestle a lot). And it's difficult to say how "dark and mature" the story is. Mature as far as it's not kid-safe in all places (exotic dance club and one sex scene in the first book, not so much emphasis needed after that). Mature in that it deals with deep subjects, philosophical concepts, and allegories to social issues, but also immature in that it has plenty of silliness between it all (sometimes I just can't help myself, but fortunately for readers, I have a good editor who doesn't hesitate to strike out entire paragraphs when called for) ...
> 
> But anyway, back to dark and mature. It does get dark, more so in the second book (very dark). But still lots of laughs. A reader recently wrote to me about the first two books. She was somewhat dumbfounded about how I "slowed her down," as she put it -- not in a bad way, she said. Just that she normally tears through books, but mine made her really "think" about it all, a lot. She couldn't put her finger on it (heck, I can't, either) and she's well educated, experienced in journalism, so it's not like she shouldn't be able to identity why a book does what it does. Anyway, she summed it up by saying the story was full of "deep thinking camouflaged in action and humor." A line I have used to promote the work, since it's dear to my heart, the words being from the mouth of a reader. Always good stuff.
> 
> So is it dark? How mature? I'm too close to it to make that determination, you can understand that.


Even more after reading your comments, I feel you didn't get the right balance of light and dark reflected in the cover images, mainly in book 2 (book 1 _could_ work for this IMO, because of the 'paranormal' imagery). When I read you here, when I read your book description, and when I read your book (page 1, anyway), I think there IS a good balance of light and dark in what's there, but for the most part the covers seem really focused on the light and youthful side of the equation. You're doing some deep stuff wrapped up in a fun story and you take your writing seriously (in the good way), but I don't think the covers reflect all of those qualities.

I'm not surprised to hear that you tackle some deeper and more philosophical subjects in your writing. As I reader, I very much enjoy that kind of thing--I'm someone who gets bored if that sort of thing _isn't _in a book--but the covers wouldn't tip me off to that dimension of your work (again, especially book 2 but also book 1). I'm among your target audience, because I love space opera and I love it when authors do more ambitious things with spec fic, but you would've lost me at the covers.

I think I was wrong to say that the covers don't look professional enough, because the more I consider it the more I realize that they do. But I think they don't look like _your_ book and I think that's what I was trying to say when I said I think you can do better.

Btw, I hear you on the sig line/thumbnails. The thumbnail has been the most difficult part for me.

And hey, if nothing else, I've gotten turned onto a new series that I want to read .


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cate Rowan said:


> I love me some free! Thanks much.
> 
> RE author branding, I've thought about using various Middle Easternesque doorways as cover frames for additional books in this series, plus more Celtic-looking ones for another series set on the same fantasy world. I suppose it would all depend on whether I could get the right look for the doorways, but they seem like possible branding for me--_hypothetically_, anyway. LOL.


I LOVE the doorway - it's what grabbed my attention. That and the mosaic (though that's part of the doorway, theoretically). I kind of wonder if some eyes blended / semi-transparent against the skyline of the buildings might give it that "Romance" feel.


----------



## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

William Campbell said:


> My stuff is perhaps too many things, but at times I hate getting pegged into any category. To me the genre is "people." Sci-fi is the stage, no less than the Old West is the stage, or a fantasy world is the stage. The story isn't about spaceships. It's not even about war, although one is going on, and spaceships are around. I like to write about the people and their problems, not gadgets or technology. But being present in the story, the tale is stamped with that genre. Just how it is.


Not to get too off-topic, but I for one appreciate stories that are about the characters: their thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, internal struggles, relationships, and the things that happen to them. I have to call my books "sci-fi" since there are space ships and aliens and all that rot. But I've always thought the best sci-fi is really about the characters and universal concepts like love, honor, courage, etc. -- and the Universe is just the stage, but it could be re-written to use sailboats or take place in the old west as well. Aliens and the vast uncharted expanses of space are often used as allegories to tell the reader something pertinent to our own world. (For example, the movie _District 9_ isn't _really_ about aliens.)

Of course, some people vehemently disagree with me and think sci-fi should be mainly about the _science_, but that's OK.

To try to get this post back on topic, I'm actually very impressed with your covers. I think they're very well-done and eye-grabbing. It's definitely dangerous to go with artwork, since IMHO bad artwork just looks terrible, but when it's done well (like yours and Dalglish's), then I think they look great. I don't think they scream indie at all, they're orders of magnitude better than many I've seen.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

David Derrico said:


> Not to get too off-topic, but I for one appreciate stories that are about the characters: their thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, internal struggles, relationships, and the things that happen to them. I have to call my books "sci-fi" since there are space ships and aliens and all that rot. But I've always thought the best sci-fi is really about the characters and universal concepts like love, honor, courage, etc. -- and the Universe is just the stage, but it could be re-written to use sailboats or take place in the old west as well. Aliens and the vast uncharted expanses of space are often used as allegories to tell the reader something pertinent to our own world. (For example, the movie _District 9_ isn't _really_ about aliens.)


I agree. I think of good spec fic environments as being more interesting and entertaining backdrops for tales that speak to the whole mess of the human condition. Getting lost in another world (or in another time period, in the case of historical fantasy) is one way to escape to another place while the story does its magic and subtly speaks to you of this world and your life.

I'm also with you on interpersonal relationships, William. I've been pleased that the most common comment in reviews on my work has been about the characters. I like drama, straight-up, but when good character relationships and good drama combine, I think that's a great synergy. The drama and action mean more when the characters' relationships are believable and their relationships are also deepened by great conflicts and struggles.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> You're doing some deep stuff wrapped up in a fun story and you take your writing seriously (in the good way), but I don't think the covers reflect all of those qualities.


Good comment, and like I was saying, that "other me" has been giving me a jab, complaining internally about the same thing. I love the work of my cover artist. He's awesome. And that art will always be connected to Dead Forever. But I look at it sometimes myself, and say "that represents the book. PART of the book, perfectly. But not all of it." A tall order perhaps. The thing is, my artist read the two books (one of the reasons I chose him, his willingness to know the story via reading it), and the resulting art is his "vision" of what it said to him. So I go with that. But that's not necessarily everyone's vision of it.



MosesSiregarIII said:


> ...you would've lost me at the covers. ... I think they don't look like _your_ book...


Precisely why I've jumped into this conversation head first, and with no blinders. I suspected some readers would be lost because of the art. It helps to talk about it. Which brings me to another thought, and not a new one...

I was already considering new art for the ebook editions. Print editions and ebooks don't have to use the same art. Heck, hardcovers and paperbacks even switch things up. So I was considering this anyway. The thing is, if I handed you hardcovers of my books, I think you'd be impressed. The are both slick. But when made into a thumbnail, yeah, it starts looking like G.I. Joe versus Cobra, I know. I see it myself. Then add that whole "dark" impression I may need, a different version for ebooks may be in order. Something I've been thinking about anyway. I figure, I'll get some who like the current, and like you, get some who wouldn't have given that one a second thought. But with another edition available that presents a different "tone," I may catch a few others in my potential audience.



MosesSiregarIII said:


> Btw, I hear you on the sig line/thumbnails. The thumbnail has been the most difficult part for me.
> And hey, if nothing else, I've gotten turned onto a new series that I want to read .


You may or may not have noticed, but I've been screwing with my thumbnails all through this thread. Why you found different stuff on Amazon. These thumbnails are just prototypes, tests. They've changed again!

And yes, if nothing else, WAY more than nothing, as in awesome, your comments which some may have taken as an insult, have undoubtedly lead to sales for me, not only from you, but others I am sure. Talking about something has that effect (GRIN).


----------



## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

David Derrico said:


> Not to get too off-topic, but I for one appreciate stories that are about the characters: their thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, internal struggles, relationships, and the things that happen to them. I have to call my books "sci-fi" since there are space ships and aliens and all that rot. But I've always thought the best sci-fi is really about the characters and universal concepts like love, honor, courage, etc. -- and the Universe is just the stage, but it could be re-written to use sailboats or take place in the old west as well. Aliens and the vast uncharted expanses of space are often used as allegories to tell the reader something pertinent to our own world. (For example, the movie _District 9_ isn't _really_ about aliens.)
> 
> Of course, some people vehemently disagree with me and think sci-fi should be mainly about the _science_, but that's OK.


(I laughed out loud on the District 9 comment. Good one.)

Not off topic at all to me. I brought it up, and it's great to hear your thoughts. We obviously agree. For any who want a book that is strictly science, look elsewhere. I've got some (as I imagine you do as well), but gee whiz, what good is science without people? Again, looks like we have found some definite common ground.



David Derrico said:


> To try to get this post back on topic, I'm actually very impressed with your covers. I think they're very well-done and eye-grabbing.


Thanks, David. And thanks to the rest of you who have made favorable comments. Sorry, I got a little wrapped up. I thank you all, and Moses for some great straight talk. I love it.

And lastly, David, your comment about "eye-grabbing" is probably the real thing I was after. And it was also the advice of my cover artist. He obviously digs chicks. (GRIN)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> I love the work of my cover artist. He's awesome. And that art will always be connected to Dead Forever. But I look at it sometimes myself, and say "that represents the book. PART of the book, perfectly. But not all of it." A tall order perhaps. The thing is, my artist read the two books (one of the reasons I chose him, his willingness to know the story via reading it), and the resulting art is his "vision" of what it said to him. So I go with that. But that's not necessarily everyone's vision of it.


Can you tell us who your cover artist is? (or pm me?) And give us an idea of what he charges?

I'm not really ready for a new cover for _Have Gun, Will Play_ (and I have to admit, I'm going for my own kind of "branding" here) and I'm not at all sure this would be the right way to go... but I do like the flavor of your covers. I think that would nail the "western" side of my story perfectly. (I.e., "this ain't Max Brand folks") - although it would not get the mystery side. And I may have some other things up my sleeve for the future too.

Camille


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> Can you tell us who your cover artist is? (or pm me?) And give us an idea of what he charges?


http://alangutierrez.com

Go check out his playground. He's also on deviant art and POD gallery. I fell in love with his work and had to use him. For me anyway, his "flavor" was just perfect. He does GREAT fantasy stuff.

I'll PM about you about the money. Feels a bit uncomfortable to broadcast that kind of stuff. Anyone can email him and ask, also. He's a super nice guy. Busy though, so you have to be patient.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> And yes, if nothing else, WAY more than nothing, as in awesome, your comments which some may have taken as an insult, have undoubtedly lead to sales for me, not only from you, but others I am sure. Talking about something has that effect (GRIN).


Shhh! They don't know that we're part of a secret KB conspiracy called the book bumping cover critiquing club. Okay, your turn


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

I've been loving this discussion, and hating my covers, and wishing I could afford someone like Bron. Still, I take heart when I check out this site: http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/

GIMP's lovely, but so complicated. I'd really rather be writing...

CK


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## 911jason (Aug 17, 2009)

Regarding Kismet's Kiss...










Just wanted to say that I think this cover is very nice. I'm not a romance reader, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's one of the nicer covers I've seen in awhile. If you need help with typography on it though, let me know as I'd be happy to help.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Okay, your turn


But I like your cover. The art is sweet, and has admirable reproduction qualities (I deal with imagery for a living). The typeface choice is good, though I might, maybe kern it a little different. Probably not, it's so close to okay, that would only be nit-picking. Only thing I'd point out is your use of a foot mark in place of a true apostrophe for possessive in "God's." (sorry, just the typographer in me, also part of my daily grind). Not sure of the font you're using (I like it) but if it has a curly apostrophe, I probably wouldn't like the result. Me personally, in this case. But if the font has a slanted apostrophe it would be perfect for the font and spacing used. Likely for the style of font, and less intrusive that way. A straight up foot mark tells me it was not done by a typographer.



Carolyn Kephart said:


> I take heart when I check out this site: http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/


Indeed! Whoa, there be some mighty odd art. And the commentary is hilarious.

Every cover on Kindleboards is stellar up against some of that traditionally published stuff. I was shocked by some of them which look maybe early seventies, but were published in the nineties. Huh? Really. Wow.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's a great Font site:

http://www.dafont.com/

Just make sure it says "Free," unless you want to pay to use it. (Usually $5 paypaled to the creator. Very informal.)

Vicki


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Here's a great Font site:
> 
> http://www.dafont.com/
> 
> ...


There's some nice stuff there - if you see a font you like, check out the artist, and you'll probably find lots more. (And yes watch the licensing - each artist an set their own terms.)

Camille


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> But I like your cover. The art is sweet, and has admirable reproduction qualities (I deal with imagery for a living). The typeface choice is good, though I might, maybe kern it a little different. Probably not, it's so close to okay, that would only be nit-picking. Only thing I'd point out is your use of a foot mark in place of a true apostrophe for possessive in "God's." (sorry, just the typographer in me, also part of my daily grind). Not sure of the font you're using (I like it) but if it has a curly apostrophe, I probably wouldn't like the result. Me personally, in this case. But if the font has a slanted apostrophe it would be perfect for the font and spacing used. Likely for the style of font, and less intrusive that way. A straight up foot mark tells me it was not done by a typographer.


Good call. You're reading my mind. I've been looking at it recently and realizing that I need to fix the kerning in at least a few places. I did all the kerning manually the first time, and I definitely improved it with that effort, but there is a little more I need to do on it.

Interesting on the apostrophe, too. I used the apostrophe that's 'native' to this font (Augustus), but maybe I should look around for another font to give me a slanted apostrophe. That's a great idea--thank you!!


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Here's a great Font site:
> 
> http://www.dafont.com/


Yep, where I got my title font, "Ethnocentric." Which then led me to the foundry and creator, Ray Larabie of Typodermic fonts. The guy is an amazing font designer and incredibly prolific. Check out his site and browse the value packs: http://www.typodermic.com/valuepacks.html

Money to buy, yes, but many of the type faces can be found as free downloads, with incentive to donate to the author (like Ethnocentric, for example, which I found at dafont.com). For any of you who are designers, the stuff Ray has to offer is wicked cool and worth a few bucks.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Interesting on the apostrophe, too. I used the apostrophe that's 'native' to this font (Augustus), but maybe I should look around for another font to give me a slanted apostrophe. That's a great idea--thank you!!


It is quite possible that the font has a straight up apostrophe. It's rare but some fonts do. The only thing close I have on hand is an open face font called "Augustea." This is probably a knock-off the original, but notice the difference in the apostrophe. Interesting.


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

Carolyn Kephart said:


> I've been loving this discussion, and hating my covers, and wishing I could afford someone like Bron. Still, I take heart when I check out this site: http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/
> 
> GIMP's lovely, but so complicated. I'd really rather be writing...
> 
> CK


Great site. I have to wonder why today's book is shown over a background of black eyed peas... I'm going to be thinking about that all d*mn day now. Gahh.

ETA: Oh wait, I think it's a carpet. Silly me. Better put my glasses on.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> It is quite possible that the font has a straight up apostrophe. It's rare but some fonts do. The only thing close I have on hand is an open face font called "Augustea." This is probably a knock-off the original, but notice the difference in the apostrophe. Interesting.


Very cool. Thanks. Interesting font, too. I'll have to give it a spin and see how I like it.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

T.M. Roy (Terry) said:


> Great site. I have to wonder why today's book is shown over a background of black eyed peas... I'm going to be thinking about that all d*mn day now. Gahh.
> 
> ETA: Oh wait, I think it's a carpet. Silly me. Better put my glasses on.


I admit to being a masochist and looking at _all_ the horrible covers on that site. Clearly the authors were too famous to be embarrassed. 

CK


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Very cool. Thanks. Interesting font, too. I'll have to give it a spin and see how I like it.


It only occurred to me afterward that I didn't post a larger view of your cover with my comment about the apostrophe. You don't see it in the thumbnail, but when I looked at the larger image, it jumped out at me. Here, for others to see what I mean...



The other example I posted is quite slanted, almost too much it seems to me. More subjective "artistic" opinion, of course. You could turn the current title to outlines so it's art, and rotate only the apostrophe perhaps half as much, to slant it. Then it wouldn't call attention to itself. An idea.

It's a good choice of font anyway. Classy and it seems to match the subject. But I'd stick with the solid version of the font you have now, not any of that chiseled look like my example. That was only because it's the only thing I had. And white is great. The simplicity is attractive, leaving the art as the centerpiece. And again, I really like the artwork, which can be appreciated much better in the larger view. Doesn't appear to be "clip-art." It that an original, or...? Good stuff anyway.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

A question for all you helpful folks out there...

Is it legal or lawful to post pictures from istockphoto here if you haven't purchased them?  I've seen a couple of them posted here, and they have the "istockphoto" logo stamped on them to show that they have not been purchased, but I wanted to check before I got into trouble.

I've downloaded the "comps" of a few of them and played with them a bit, and I'd love to be able to post them here and on my site for feedback, but I want to make sure I'm not doing anything illegal.

Thanks,

John


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Just 'posting' them here? I can't imagine that really being unlawful. Heck, it's more advertising for them.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, I mean posting my mocked up cover concepts here, FaceBook, my blog... etc  Would they consider that free advertising?


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Just 'posting' them here? I can't imagine that really being unlawful. Heck, it's more advertising for them.


This.

That's why they have the watermarks on them, to keep them from being commercially viable and yet allow people to consider their use.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Just leave the watermarks on them while you make your markups. As long as you aren't yet using them for commercial purposes, I don't see a big deal.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

LKRigel said:


> This.
> 
> That's why they have the watermarks on them, to keep them from being commercially viable and yet allow people to consider their use.


LK, not sure what "This." means...

David, I would just hate to get sued and try to counter that with, "But this dude on the forum said HE didn't see any problem with it!" 

The heck with it, I'll post 'em.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> David, I would just hate to get sued and try to counter that with, "But this dude on the forum said HE didn't see any problem with it!"


What, you didn't know that was a valid defense in court?


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

I thought, "That's what HE said!" was only good in very, very informal gatherings...


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2010)

I posted this, but the post dissappeared? Weird...must be cybergremlins...

But anyway, copyright.gov says the following in regard to fair use



> Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.


A group of peers discussing cover design would qualifies as fair use under Section 107.


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

Thank you Julie.

As I post the pics in various places on the web, I can breathe a sigh of relief that I won't have to test David's defense theory in court...


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Learnmegood said:


> LK, not sure what "This." means...


Let me learn ya good...  When someone quotes another post and replies "This.", they're saying that they agree 100% with the quoted text. I suppose it's shorthand for "This is what I think, too."

Hope that helped 

As for the question - you should be fine. Comps are comps and are meant to be used for mock-ups. As long as you don't do anything commercial with the photo before buying the license and don't try to remove the watermark, you should be fine. And truthfully, with the watermark, you'd be hard pressed to do anything other than mock-ups with it. Clever, aren't they?


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I tried some experimentation with GIMP last night for my next cover (which I will need soon) and I was completely lost.  I felt like those eighty year old guys who complain about dadgummed computers.  

I know what I want to do but I have no clue about the terminology and methods that GIMP uses.  I don't even have a clue about the clues.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> I tried some experimentation with GIMP last night for my next cover (which I will need soon) and I was completely lost. I felt like those eighty year old guys who complain about dadgummed computers.
> 
> I know what I want to do but I have no clue about the terminology and methods that GIMP uses. I don't even have a clue about the clues.


Dave, here are some notes I made to myself when I was messing around with GIMP. They may or may not be useful!

= = = = = = = 
gimp notes:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=84054973&blogId=530553543

1. open template (File, Open)

2. Open background (1st layer?) pic (File, Open)

3. get template measurements: (Image, Canvas size) --

w = 1848, h = 2768

4. on image, choose Image, Scale Image put in height. click width window and it automatically fills in, then click Scale

5. click Edit, Copy (try ctrl C) on image

6. back to template. make new layer: right click at Background. new box pops up, click okay or enter.

7. paste image on new layer (ctrl V, or Edit, Paste)

8. Chose "move" tool to position image

9. [ repeat as necessary for overlays? use opacity slider?]

10. make new layer in layer pallet and name it "frame"

11. a. pick rectangle selection tool to create frame around image. 
b. set foreground color to black. 
c. select flood fill tool.
d. chose Select, Invert (or use ctrl I)
e. flood fill the frame

12. Text. 
a. choose rectangle tool and click once in the image to unselect 
the frame
b. choose alphabet tool and select text elements
c. draw a text box in image and type text in popup box.
(to italicize, use shear tool on text box -66 is good)

13. for a "matted frame look" to create a border, add new layer and call it box
a. use eyedropper color picker tool to get a color from the image
b. go back to "box" layer and draw box with path tool 
(there's got to be a better way)
c. create path, lining up circles. 
d. when complete, choose "stroke path" 9.0 width, stroke

save as *.png 
merge visible layers
experiment with compression -- 0 = better quality.

= = = = = =
to put border around text:

(after text is created)
1. Layer > boundary size -- make it double the current size (it doesn't really matter)
2. click the "center" box

3. Layer > transparency "Alpha to selection"

4. Select > grow
This sets the pixel size of the border. 
(Smaller # = elegant; larger # = blocky or cartoonish.)

5. a. right click in layer box to create new layer. 
b. move the layer down one level (how?) Layer > Stack > Lower Layer

6. in tool palette select color you want for border as the foreground color
7. Edit > fill with FG (foreground color)

8. Select > none.

Done!
= = = = =

The myspace link is to a step-by-step how-to that a nice person put up.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

For anyone not completely tired of cover choices/discussions, the poll is now open for my latest book--help me pick the cover, make suggestions about the font--whatever!  

Vote for your favorite for Under Witch Moon!

www.BearMountainBooks.com

Maria


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## LCEvans (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi, Maria. I voted for the second one, but really I like them both a lot and had a hard time deciding.

Linda


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> For anyone not completely tired of cover choices/discussions, the poll is now open for my latest book--help me pick the cover, make suggestions about the font--whatever!
> 
> Vote for your favorite for Under Witch Moon!
> 
> ...


Voted for B - my initial thought on A was "What's that white stuff in the foreground?"  That said - I'm really looking forward to your book. I love urban fantasy


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks Linda and Arkali!  There's been some interesting discussions regarding that white stuff.  I know what it is because...well, I wrote the book so know the setting!  I'm of half a mind to have her just deleted it...that cover A is well-liked though...decisions, decisions!  Thanks for popping by to vote.  I enjoy doing these polls.  They are always interesting.

P.S.  One woman wrote me and said, "I LOVE the wolf in Cover A."  I"m still looking for it...


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> For anyone not completely tired of cover choices/discussions, the poll is now open for my latest book--help me pick the cover, make suggestions about the font--whatever!
> 
> Vote for your favorite for Under Witch Moon!
> 
> ...


Maria, will I offend anyone if I vote for this one?


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Thank you LK, that was sweet of you.  Maybe that's a good starting point for me.

::::::::::::::::::

HL, did you just whip that up from scratch just now?  I'm so envious of your graphic skill...


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> HL, did you just whip that up from scratch just now? I'm so envious of your graphic skill...


Just playing around. Something to do.

...of course, I should be writing.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

HL...your talent is amazing!  Would you be offended if I asked you to post it in the comment trail?  Or can I post it in the comments trail on my website?  No, I  probably shouldn't.  People might start voting for it and then can you imagine the conundrum....yeah, probably better not go there...every time I provide more choices it totally messes up the poll...

Still, it's a very nice cover.


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

MariaESchneider said:


> HL...your talent is amazing! Would you be offended if I asked you to post it in the comment trail? Or can I post it in the comments trail on my website? No, I probably shouldn't. People might start voting for it and then can you imagine the conundrum....yeah, probably better not go there...every time I provide more choices it totally messes up the poll...
> 
> Still, it's a very nice cover.


Uh-oh. I already did.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Perfectly fine.    It's a great cover.


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

daveconifer said:


> HL, did you just whip that up from scratch just now? I'm so envious of your graphic skill...


Dave,

Here's a little something you may have a use for...










You can download the hires TIF (twice the size) from...
http://www.hlarledge.com/images/samples/manofsteel.tif


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

I liked COVER-A,  however I'd get the portion of the tree covered by the moon back to black, other than that it appears intrinsically okay.

Paul


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## Cathymw (May 27, 2010)

Arkali said:


> Then there's the somewhat new romance novel trend which is man's nekkid chest:
> http://alyssaday.com/books.html
> http://www.alexismorgan.com/paladins.html
> Truthfully, I'm not a fan.


Of covers with nekkid chests, or of the chests themselves? Cause I don't particularly care for covers with them, but don't mind drooling over the pictures.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

HL Arledge said:


> Dave,
> 
> Here's a little something you may have a use for...
> 
> ...


Wow, HL, sorry I didn't notice that sooner! That's just incredible...


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

MrPLD said:


> I liked COVER-A, however I'd get the portion of the tree covered by the moon back to black, other than that it appears intrinsically okay.
> 
> Paul


Thanks Paul. I've heard that from a couple of people. There's definitely some artistic license there, but it fits the story although it may not be as technically correct as real life...

Thanks everyone for stopping by to vote!


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## Learnmegood (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm going to post a request for help here.  I have a cover design that I am very happy with.  I've made it using a stock photo and the program inkscape.  On my screen it looks awesome.  But when I save it as a .png file, and then try opening it using MS photo editor, a lot of the text seems to have lost its integrity.  I think the problem may be in resizing it.

Can somebody who is familiar with inkscape please please please contact me and help me out with a few things?

Thanks!

John


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

John, PM'd you.


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## RonnellDPorter (Apr 20, 2010)

You see? You leave for a week and you miss interesting topics like this! lol


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Well Ronnell, you did get mentioned more than once in the thread.


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

Hey Ronnell,

I checked out your cover port. Great work, man.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Cathymw said:


> Of covers with nekkid chests, or of the chests themselves? Cause I don't particularly care for covers with them, but don't mind drooling over the pictures.


LOL I like the chests themselves. The covers just don't do much for me. I mean... there's only so many different ways to do nekkid chests, ya know? When it's the neck to the waist, the covers start to all look alike, IMO. Apparently they're selling, though, since they not only keep using them, but they're putting them on more books. It's the new "clinch" - only, there is no clinch, so it's great, right?


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


>












Hey William (and friends), I've been working my cover quite a bit. Thanks to your suggestion, I changed the apostrophe (I found an apostrophe that I like from a font called 'Morpheus') and tweaked the kerning some more.

Because I've been working on a print cover, I went back to istockphoto and bought higher quality images of my artwork, so now the images are of better quality. The leaves, for example, are much better defined and the female model's image looks more 3D.

I also played around with the color levels quite a bit so that the two main images look a little more like they belong together. For one thing, the left image is less yellow and it has a little more white in it.

If you want to see a larger version where the changes will be a little more apparent (such as the apostrophe, William), here's a larger image on my site.


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## HL Arledge (Sep 5, 2010)

Well done, Moses.


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## Dawn Judd (Jun 8, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Because I've been working on a print cover, I went back to istockphoto and bought higher quality images of my artwork, so now the images are of better quality. The leaves, for example, are much better defined and the female model's image looks more 3D


That's the first thing I noticed. It's a much crisper image. Looks great!


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## EliRey (Sep 8, 2010)

Just read through this whole thing and cringed everytime I read how important the cover is. I've made so many rookie mistakes since publishing the biggest one being that I used a photo on my cover that I thought I could use, turns out I can't and had to scramble to create a temp one until I could come up with a better one. The one I have now I created in less than 20 min. Mind you I am NO designer it literally took me longer to find the program and figure out how to use it on my computer that I didn't even know I had and it's from 2006! lol 

Anyhow I just wanted to mention you'd be surprised how many student designers are out there anxious for the experience. I currently have one working on my cover and I also found a student editor that went and meticulously edited my MS, very professionally I might add, he sent it back with so much red highlights my husband asked if we were gonna owe him for the red ink!  Hardy har! . But googling around or sending out an SOS through your FB or twitter or even here can really help. Still waiting on mine... btw all both editor and designer asked for was to be credited for the work and possible letters of recommendations in the future.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

EliRey said:


> Just read through this whole thing and cringed everytime I read how important the cover is. I've made so many rookie mistakes since publishing the biggest one being that I used a photo on my cover that I thought I could use, turns out I can't and had to scramble to create a temp one until I could come up with a better one. The one I have now I created in less than 20 min. Mind you I am NO designer it literally took me longer to find the program and figure out how to use it on my computer that I didn't even know I had and it's from 2006! lol
> 
> Anyhow I just wanted to mention you'd be surprised how many student designers are out there anxious for the experience. I currently have one working on my cover and I also found a student editor that went and meticulously edited my MS, very professionally I might add, he sent it back with so much red highlights my husband asked if we were gonna owe him for the red ink! Hardy har! . But googling around or sending out an SOS through your FB or twitter or even here can really help. Still waiting on mine... btw all both editor and designer asked for was to be credited for the work and possible letters of recommendations in the future.


I've never even thought of seeking a student editor. That is a GREAT idea!!! You're brilliant. *grin*

Vicki


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## EliRey (Sep 8, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I've never even thought of seeking a student editor. That is a GREAT idea!!! You're brilliant. *grin*
> 
> Vicki


Yeah, real brilliant. Wish I'd thought of it BEFORE I went live on Amazon.  Oh, well live and learn. And boy am I still learning. Good thing mine is a series. Maybe by the third book I'll get it right! lol! The beauty of Indie books is you can go back and change. (Thank goodness for that!)


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Hey William (and friends), I've been working my cover quite a bit. Thanks to your suggestion, I changed the apostrophe (I found an apostrophe that I like from a font called 'Morpheus') and tweaked the kerning some more.


That looks much better. I can see the pattern now in the black background also. I didn't notice that before. Looks good. For print, yes you will need that extra resolution. The color tweaks look good also. Well done. Out of curiosity, who will be producing the print edition?


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Moses, I'd love to see a comparison, both covers next to each other. Do you still have the old version?


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> Moses, I'd love to see a comparison, both covers next to each other. Do you still have the old version?


Definitely, thanks.

















After I put them side by side, I caught some more changes I wanted to make to the lettering; I ended up changing the look of the title a little bit. Here's the even newer version to the right, with the old version to the left.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nice.

One suggestion -- not sure, but how about reddening the girl's lips a slight bit, using the orange/red from the left side?

Redder lips are always enticing, ha, and it would tie the two sides together in another way, though subliminally.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> Nice.
> 
> One suggestion -- not sure, but how about reddening the girl's lips a slight bit, using the orange/red from the left side?
> 
> Redder lips are always enticing, ha, and it would tie the two sides together in another way, though subliminally.


That is a cool idea. I'm not sure how to do that in Fireworks. Anyone know?


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> That is a cool idea. I'm not sure how to do that in Fireworks. Anyone know?


A bit tough in Fireworks (compared to Photoshop) since the hue/saturation controls don't have the option to restrict changes to selected color zones (red, in this case). Either way you'd need a localized selection to affect only the lips, but still better to have the finer control that Photoshop offers. Fireworks isn't the best for print graphics. It's a Macromedia leftover, their old xRes image editing program competitor to Photoshop. Adobe kept it around for web designers, I guess, but still Photoshop leaves it in the dust. For print, we won't touch it.

In what format do you have the image saved? I could help you out if you want to send me a high-res copy. I'm in Photoshop all day (my paying job). Email an image to my work address (Revere Graphics) - [email protected]


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Hey writerfolk, let me put in a small plug for William. He helped me out with my cover file quite a bit and fixed a few issues that I didn't have the knowledge or ability to fix. Since I was getting the ARCs of my novella created, I wanted to have the best possible cover for it and he really helped me out. He also did it freely, though I made a donation for his help. So if you need help with some technical details on your covers, William is someone I recommend talking to.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Hey writerfolk, let me put in a small plug for William...


Nice. Thank you, Moses. Nice to resurrect this thread, too, with a bump.

By the way, I never did hear the final result. I saw your photos on Facebook, opening the carton of books, and wouldn't describe the look on your face as horror, so it must have been all right. (whew!). I am most curious about how the color reproduced, particularly our problem areas of subtlety with the eye and chin in the dark of the mask, as well, your subtle pattern in the black background. Are the results what you expected? Lighter? Darker? It's good to know as a reference for helping others aiming at CreateSpace (I use Lightning Source, their competitor).

About helping others, just to let others know -- I live in Photoshop and Illustrator (my job is pre-media, previously known as prepress). I wouldn't consider myself much of a designer, more a technician. So I am around to help either directly or with answers to questions about Photoshop, to help out my friends when I can. Of course -- as time allows (I squeeze these little projects in between my real work). As long as you're not in a panicked hurry (like most of my customers) I can get around to helping out with image manipulation. You'll have to know what you want though. Like I said, not as much the designer, more the nuts-and-bolts kind of guy.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> By the way, I never did hear the final result. I saw your photos on Facebook, opening the carton of books, and wouldn't describe the look on your face as horror, so it must have been all right. (whew!). I am most curious about how the color reproduced, particularly our problem areas of subtlety with the eye and chin in the dark of the mask, as well, your subtle pattern in the black background. Are the results what you expected? Lighter? Darker? It's good to know as a reference for helping others aiming at CreateSpace (I use Lightning Source, their competitor).


Yeah, good questions. The dark area on the left side where her eyes, lips, and chin are did actually turn out too dark in the first print edition. I originally had the opacity set at 9%. You upped it to 12% (and I kept that). But even 12% didn't work for the print edition (it looks great online, though). So my next proof copy has it up all the way to 20%, and I'm also going to order some at 22%. So I'll have to keep testing until I find the right formula for CreateSpace.

The very subtle pattern in the main black blackground didn't really show up. Maybe it made the black a little less black, but I'm not sure. I may test that some more in the future, but for now I'm going to stick with it as is because it looks okay.

I also redesigned the back cover (which I don't think you've seen, William) to add a quote from Red Adept's review. I'll have to send her a copy so she can add it to her collection


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

Someone on the first page said: She was really shocked that I, who have no idea what's in or out and don't know the designers names, COULD spot a Saville Row suit from something off the rack without hesitation. 
---
Personally, I think all clothing are just pieces of cloth and "fashion" is just a way to sell people clothing they don't need. 

In a bookstore, the cover can make me pick a book up, but the back cover blurb and usually the first few paragraphs make me buy or put it back. And traditional publishers' covers are often fairly generic. Online, I read the description and look for reviews also.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> The dark area on the left side where her eyes, lips, and chin are did actually turn out too dark...


As I expected. A reason I lightened it, but alas, not enough. I might talk about the subject for a moment, only to help others also understand the issues we face, and why a screen image is not interchangeable with the same for print.

The difference is transmitted versus reflective light. When you see an image on screen, the whitest white is pure light. For printed matter, it's the opposite. The whitest white is the paper and it is only as white as the light striking it, and subsequently reflecting off to find its way to your eye (also the difference that makes the Kindle easier on the eyes - eInk is reflective like printed matter, unlike computer screens that aim light rays at your eyes).

So we have to take this into consideration when preparing artwork for printed matter. With current color management technology (fantastic stuff) we can match the midtones and highlights well between printed matter and screens, but it's real tough to get those shadows to pop on printed matter. So we usually have to open things up in the shadows (why I raised that opacity). But it's a fine line, especially for the subject matter of your cover, where subtlety is the goal. A wee too much, no longer subtle, rather screaming at the viewer.

One thing that might help, is that I can make a single proof for cheap that shows how it will look, at least fairly close. Not perfect, but a good gauge of these shadow problems we face. I would be curious to see how my proofing setup compares to the real thing from CreateSpace. How about you send me the exact same cover file you sent them (so we're comparing apples to apples) and I'll see how it looks at this end? I'm willing to do that because I enjoy getting a handle on how CreateSpace manages color, and that helps me help others in the future. You can send it to the same address as before, if you're willing.

At any rate, it's a cool cover. I'm proud to have had a little hand in it.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

That reminds me, William. I forgot to add you to my acknowledgments! I like to mention anyone whose footprint is anywhere near to being on the final product (I recently added Derek Prior and Debra L Martin for this reason).

Send me a PM and let me know if you want the 12%, or one of the newer ones (I also tried 20% and 22%).


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> That reminds me, William. I forgot to add you to my acknowledgments!


That's cool. Get me on a maintenance update later. I did come to the party late, after all.

I'll PM you about the file details I'd like to get.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Thanks for taking what I said in the right spirit, William.
> 
> For me, I'd give your book 1's cover a pass on its own (though not book 2), BUT after reading the description it still doesn't feel like a good fit to me:
> 
> ...


Well now, Moses, your words are prophetic. I did not tell my artist of your message, or suggest what the art should look like. After reading the third book, this is what he drew:

Weird, eh?


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Getting back to the original point, I tend to agree that cover quality counts it clearly doesn't count for everything. One of my books has a Sales Ranking of 975 at the Diesel ebookstore (on pretty low numbers it has to be said) and it has the old original "this is an experiment" cruddy cover.

One of the issues I bring up with smashwords regularly is vendors not updating with new data, both covers and bio info. It is sloppy and unprofessional of the vendors, imho, and a strong indication that they are still thinking of books as commodities. But that's beside the point. In places where this particular book has the new and far better cover it is not doing as well as at Diesel and Sony (bigger numbers-lower ranking). Just an observation; not really drawing any conclusions from it.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

If I see a terrible, amateurish cover I am almost certainly not going to buy the book. If the cover is at least competent, and the blurb about the book sounds intriguing, or it's gotten great reviews, or both...I'm in! 

So, an awesome book cover ALONE will not make me buy a book...but a terrible book cover will ensure that I don't buy it.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Indeed, you rarely make many sales on the back of one aspect alone, let alone even two.  I think with a decent cover, good blurb, honest reviews and a reasonable sample you should have the best chance possible.


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

Agreed. 

And Dana makes the great point that while one good facet won't convince her to buy, one bad one will convince her not to. 

For me it's Cover, Blurb, "Best Review", Sample ... in that order. If I get thru the sample, I *usually* buy the book, but the sad truth is, I might look at a hundred books before I sample one. And I'm buying maybe one in ten of the samples. 

Good art, good composition, and decent typography will get a book over the first hurdle with me.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Nathan Lowell said:


> For me it's Cover, Blurb, "Best Review", Sample ... in that order. If I get thru the sample, I *usually* buy the book, but the sad truth is, I might look at a hundred books before I sample one. And I'm buying maybe one in ten of the samples.


And if the writing gig fails, you've got a great career ahead of you as a literary agent.


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## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> And if the writing gig fails, you've got a great career ahead of you as a literary agent.


Heh.

No, I'd suck as an agent. They operate on a very different wavelength than anything *I* can foresee doing.

That does seem to be about the right ratio for acceptances, but I'm only buying for a market of one (me) and not a market of six who have very rigid requirements.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Well now, Moses, your words are prophetic. I did not tell my artist of your message, or suggest what the art should look like. After reading the third book, this is what he drew:
> 
> Weird, eh?


LOL! I was just thinking about you in the last few days, wondering how you are doing. And, not surprisingly, I like this one


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## STOHara (Feb 23, 2011)

When I first decided to try e-publishing, I made a test run with a public domain book, putting together a collection of novels that became Alfred Hitchcock films. For a cover, I just threw together something with Paint.net and a public domain image:



Ick! That's absolutely horrible. You can tell that it didn't take me more than five minutes to make it. But despite that, it sells one or two copies per day and is usually the first or second result of "Hitchcock" in the Kindle store. I'm tempted to go back and make a better cover to see if it increases sales.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Jeff said:


> What's a good cover? I'm apparently a very poor judge because to me, this isn't great:


^^ That.

James Patterson's covers too. Nothing about a florescent colored NUMBER is going to make me buy that book. But his following probably doesn't care though. I get that. 
Traditional Publishing has been putting out horrid covers for scifi & fantasy books for YEARS. I used to work in a library, and I've seen some godawful stuff! Don't believe me? Check out http://www.goodshowsir.co.uk/ and http://punkrockpenguin.net/waste/amuse/badcovers/. 

Mind you, I'm not delusional about the existence of bad book covers in the indie book world. I'm currently "upping my game" with my own covers. There are some bland and some just plain BAD book covers out there amongst indie titles.

However, I think making random generalized comments like the OP is a little like the blindfolded kid at a party trying to hit the pinata. And, he hits Aunt Jane because she was just standing too close...

It's far more effective to pm a person and say, "Hey, psst! Your cover doesn't work buddy. You may want to hire a pro cover artist, or find an art student who would do work for cheap..." 
Than to throw a random comment out there and HOPE it doesn't fall on deaf ears, or ears that are listening but already have their act together.

Unless of course you want to ignite a lot of drama...
if so then, carry on.


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## Dan Holloway (Dec 18, 2010)

It strikes me covers are almost more important for ebooks than regular books (partly because the book is never "spine-on"). But do you think, as readers, there are different criteria for a great ebook cover from those for a paperback cover?


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Hey, traditional publishers don't do too hot on covers either.  My Area 51 series has sold over 1.3 million copies, yet the stupid flying saucer on the cover, which changed for each book at the whim of the artist, isn't in the book.  And, on back cover copy it says Nellis Air Force Base, New Mexico, when it's in Nevada.  After six editors and seventeen reprints, I still can't get anyone at Random House to correct it.  And I know that's cost me sales/
The thing is for eBooks, the concept of cover has changed.  Have to pop in thumbnail.  We've gone through a lot of iterations and constantly are fighting over cover at Who Dares Wins Publishing.
I'm pretty impressed with a lot of the covers I see from indie authors.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dan Holloway said:


> It strikes me covers are almost more important for ebooks than regular books (partly because the book is never "spine-on"). But do you think, as readers, there are different criteria for a great ebook cover from those for a paperback cover?


Oh yes. I think that's one of the reasons why I went in a whole different direction with my ebook edition. I wanted to make sure that it looked good online. That the font was more legible, and it wasn't too pepto-bismol pink. (I really want to redo the cover of the pb too...in time.)

I completely agree with what everyone else said about istockphoto, dreamweaver, and the like. I actually prefer fotolia. 


Bob_Mayer said:


> Hey, traditional publishers don't do too hot on covers either. My Area 51 series has sold over 1.3 million copies, yet the stupid flying saucer on the cover, which changed for each book at the whim of the artist, isn't in the book. And, on back cover copy it says Nellis Air Force Base, New Mexico, when it's in Nevada. After six editors and seventeen reprints, I still can't get anyone at Random House to correct it. And I know that's cost me sales/
> The thing is for eBooks, the concept of cover has changed. Have to pop in thumbnail. We've gone through a lot of iterations and constantly are fighting over cover at Who Dares Wins Publishing.
> I'm pretty impressed with a lot of the covers I see from indie authors.


Yeah, I'm aware of stories like yours. And, I empathize.

When I was beginning my indie publishing journey, I read an interesting article about an author of a nonfiction book about female pirates. It was not a children's book by any means, but when her book was published the cartoonish cover made it look like it was.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Bob_Mayer said:


> Hey, traditional publishers don't do too hot on covers either. My Area 51 series has sold over 1.3 million copies, yet the stupid flying saucer on the cover, which changed for each book at the whim of the artist, isn't in the book. And, on back cover copy it says Nellis Air Force Base, New Mexico, when it's in Nevada. After six editors and seventeen reprints, I still can't get anyone at Random House to correct it. And I know that's cost me sales


There is a difference between a poor choice and a crappy cover. You can have a well designed cover that fails to actually convey the message of the book. That happens all the time. But that is a different problem than something that just looks like crap.


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Bob_Mayer said:


> Hey, traditional publishers don't do too hot on covers either. My Area 51 series has sold over 1.3 million copies, yet the stupid flying saucer on the cover, which changed for each book at the whim of the artist, isn't in the book


Gnnnn.. yep, that sort of thing grinds me a lot. Get to the end of a book and go "So where the HELL was the primary object on the cover?", certainly not the first time that's happened. Happens in movie-trailers too, some very nice scenes that aren't ever in the full movie. Nice to know it's not your fault though Bob, despite the best of your efforts.

Paul.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

MrPLD said:


> Gnnnn.. yep, that sort of thing grinds me a lot. Get to the end of a book and go "So where the HELL was the primary object on the cover?", certainly not the first time that's happened. Happens in movie-trailers too, some very nice scenes that aren't ever in the full movie. Nice to know it's not your fault though Bob, despite the best of your efforts.
> 
> Paul.


Not to mention when the people on the cover of the book look nothing like the characters described within the context of the book. I sometimes wonder if the publisher slapped the image for another book on the cover...


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

xandy3 said:


> Not to mention when the people on the cover of the book look nothing like the characters described within the context of the book. I sometimes wonder if the publisher slapped the image for another book on the cover...


Yay for being able to tell my artist what they look like and trust him to actually draw it!


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## MrPLD (Sep 23, 2010)

Indeed.


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## DonnaBurgess (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm re-releasing my novel "Darklands" next month, once I receive my edits back from Lynn at Red Adept. I also decided to have a cover designed to replace the one I made with my daughter, which is sort of blah.

I'm totally psyched, so I thought I'd share:



(Current cover is located in my signature)

This was done by Kim at Hot Damn Designs -- http://hotdamndesigns.com/bookcovers.asp She really knows her stuff, plus the prices are more than reasonable.


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## coffeetx (Feb 12, 2011)

LKRigel said:


> I told my cover designer what you said, and it made her so happy!


And who is your cover designer b/c your covers are some of the best I've seen.


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> LOL! I was just thinking about you in the last few days, wondering how you are doing. And, not surprisingly, I like this one


Thanks, Moses. Yeah, I've been away some, in my cave finishing rewrites to satisfy my editor. Most important was wrapping up the final climax and denouement, both tricky, and since this is it, the end of it all, it had to be right. The first two books don't have "real" endings since it's a trilogy (which actually, was a single book once upon a time). As my editor noted while working on the second book, "You're juggling a lot of balls here. Hope you can catch them all." It took some engineering, but I've tied up the mysteries well, I hope. At last, the trilogy is complete. I should have it on sale later this week (I also hope). Still some production details for the hard cover and paperback.

With the latest cover, I fully expect the Han Solo remarks, as I've endured for the first cover looking like Lara Croft. But like I say about cliches and adverbs -- they're fine, just not overdone in every dialog tag. The cliche works for me: Lara and Han on a quest to find the Wizard of Oz in the Matrix. Hahaha. If it works, do it, so I am.



xandy3 said:


> Not to mention when the people on the cover of the book look nothing like the characters described within the context of the book. I sometimes wonder if the publisher slapped the image for another book on the cover...


My artist, Alan Gutierrez, has stories. After three books now, I've gotten to know him pretty good. He's been doing art for 30 years, now freelance, but years ago he worked in NY for a few different large publishers. One of the reasons I hired him was because he would read the story. Makes sense to me, but the stories he has to tell about NY are appalling. He would get a title, that's it. "What should be on the cover?" he would ask. "It's Sci-Fi, so draw a spacecraft and some aliens. It doesn't matter. It's just another like all the rest."

Seriously.

Now it's nice for both of us -- I get to give input and he draws on actual images from the story. Each of my covers are scenes from the books, but highly altered by Alan to give him what he wants. For example, the hero on the third book, in that scene is not dressed that way (or his hair), but in other scenes he is. Alan pulls it all together for a combined sample of various portions. At least it's the right guy. Hahaha. And finally, a guy on the cover. Hahaha. Now it all makes sense...


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

LKRigel said:


> A good cover is crucial. As Betsy said, first impressions and all.


Your book covers are stunning!


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Your book covers are stunning!


And I've actually just been admiring yours, Kathleen.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Thank you, Dara. I really find yours for "Brought To Life" to be seductive. The one with the great abs is well done but says "ROMANCE NOVEL" to me and I have mixed feelings about those. Love the abs though...


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## starhawk (Sep 24, 2010)

Monique,
I love your cover for OUT OF TIME. I too make my own covers, and love doing it. I recently changed the cover of my thriller, BORROWED TIME, because after reading a post about 10 tips for making a good cover, I decided mine needed revamping. I think it was too dark, and the picture was in a boc, which, supposedly is a sign of an ameteur.

I wish I could show you an image of it, but don't know how, but here's the link for it. 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/b0043m4sm2 
Would love to have feedback on it. However, changing my cover has not increased my sales on this book, so maybe I still don't have it right.


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## starhawk (Sep 24, 2010)

Monique,
I love your cover for OUT OF TIME. I too make my own covers, and love doing it. I recently changed the cover of my thriller, BORROWED TIME, because after reading a post about 10 tips for making a good cover, I decided mine needed revamping. I think it was too dark, and the picture was in a boc, which, supposedly is a sign of an ameteur.

I wish I could show you an image of it, but don't know how, but here's the link for it. 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/b0043m4sm2 
Would love to have feedback on it. However, changing my cover has not increased my sales on this book, so maybe I still don't have it right.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

For now, I've settled on this cover for my novel. I had a thread on this a while back:




















And the larger version that no one will see on Amazon.

Can't wait to have two covers in my sig LOL!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

@ Moses, you know I love your cover. It's wonderful.

@ Sandra, thank you! I think I lucked out with my cover. I won't be trying it again myself. I'm not sure how I feel about your new cover. I don't think it conveys the tension and excitement that appears to be the key to your thriller. It's not bad, but I'm not sure it's the best choice to serve the story. Maybe a tighter use of the image to get more claustrophobic and threatening? Just not sure. You might start a separate cover input thread. There are tons of people with wonderful eyes who might be able to give you better suggestions.


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## ChadMck (Feb 25, 2011)

I was just about to start a thread about where to find a graphic design artist to create a book cover for me when I stumbled upon everyone here. I've picked up a lot of great ideas! Thanks to everyone who has been posting websites to get stock art to design around. 

What in the world did authors do before the Kindle (and Kindleboards)?


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## Valmore Daniels (Jul 12, 2010)

William Campbell said:


>


I really like that cover! Good stuff!


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## William Campbell (Feb 11, 2010)

Valmore Daniels said:


> I really like that cover! Good stuff!


Thanks, Valmore. The back is cool, too, with the ghosts of his past lives. Check out the full spread, art only:


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

William Campbell said:


> Thanks, Valmore. The back is cool, too, with the ghosts of his past lives. Check out the full spread, art only:


Righteous!


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## Miriam Minger (Nov 27, 2010)

Lots of threads about covers lately.  The more the merrier.  Really enjoying looking at the varied cover designs.  

Miriam Minger


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Miriam, I confess I have always admired your covers.


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## Miriam Minger (Nov 27, 2010)

xandy3 said:


> Miriam, I confess I have always admired your covers.


Thanks!

Best of luck with your new ebook, Annie.

Miriam Minger


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