# "More authors turn to Web and print-on-demand publishing"



## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/06/print.on.demand.publishing/index.html?eref=rss_tech

One of the authors used as an example has gotten some mention here recently, along with her book:


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## chynared21 (Oct 28, 2008)

*Interesting article Michelle...thanks for posting it.*


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## andc39 (Apr 5, 2009)

Michelle,

I thought you (and others) might be interested in this Letter to the Editor I recently sent off (and yes, they printed it):

Monday, March 30

To the editor:

I am the author of a recent book on religion, spirituality, and American culture. Yesterday I learned that The Berkshire Eagle is unwilling to consider a review of my work because it is self-published. Needless to say, I am offended — and other artists, writers and readers ought to be offended — by this sort of archaic and superficial bias. Times have changed, technology has changed, and the marketplace has changed. A great many books are now being self-published.

Are there poor ones among them? Absolutely. But there are also gems. And the only appropriate way to determine a book's value is to read it, not to look at the publisher's name and jump to unfounded conclusions.

Earlier this month, the president of the American Society of Journalists & Authors, Russell Wild, wrote the following in a letter to the society's membership (you can read the complete letter on their Web site, www.asja.org: "(T)he publishing world has changed. It will continue to change. Today, the self-published work is no longer the avenue of desperation-for-ink that it once was. Rather, self-publishing has become a means by which some very professional writers, including a good number of ASJA members, are voluntarily choosing to market their considerable talent." (I, for one, had my first book published by a traditional publisher several years ago. They took forever, did no promotion at all, and paid a negligible royalty. This time, I chose to publish on my own).

Wild acknowledges that some self-published work "is clearly not worthy of the paper it is printed on," and the society is certainly not interested in endorsing second-rate work: neither am I, and neither should The Eagle.

But it is worth recalling that Walt Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" had to be self-published, whereas, if any silly celebrity were to announce the intention of jotting down a trashy memoir, you can bet that traditional publishers would be lined up and salivating for the right to publish it.

In light of the ASJA position, and because it is just common sense and common courtesy, I hope The Eagle will reconsider and abandon this inequitable and unwarranted policy. In the meantime, if any readers would like to find out more about my books for themselves, you can certainly log on to Amazon or my Web site. A reviewer who did bother to read my work recently wrote, "This learned and inspirational book rescues philosophy from the mathematicians, sex from the hedonists, religion from empty sanctimony, and science from barren materialism. A must read for all of us who seek a guidebook for meaningful life in the new millennium."

ANDREW CORT
Tyringham


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## boydm (Mar 21, 2009)

Given the following sentence in the article, I can see why The Berkshire Eagle would refuse to review self-published work: "About 5,000 new titles are added each week." That's the number of new self-published books Lulu puts on its web site every week.

How are newspapers to decide which of the 5,000 new titles is worthy of reading and reviewing? Even if the reviewer reads one book every day, that would only be 365 books in a year, compared to the 250,000 books Lulu will put on its site.

I'm sure their policy is put into place so they can focus on the 175,000 books that are published each year.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

boydm said:


> Given the following sentence in the article, I can see why The Berkshire Eagle would refuse to review self-published work: "About 5,000 new titles are added each week." That's the number of new self-published books Lulu puts on its web site every week.
> 
> How are newspapers to decide which of the 5,000 new titles is worthy of reading and reviewing? Even if the reviewer reads one book every day, that would only be 365 books in a year, compared to the 250,000 books Lulu will put on its site.
> 
> I'm sure their policy is put into place so they can focus on the 175,000 books that are published each year.


As more and more newspapers go down the tubes, their reviews are probably not going to make much difference in a book's success or failure.

In Andrew's case, because he is a local author, you'd think that might be a factor that would interest the newspaper editors. Obviously not.

L


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## andc39 (Apr 5, 2009)

There's certainly something to what you're saying. With _only_ traditionally published books, there has to be some criteria for deciding which ones a publication can review. But the criteria should be reasonable and fair, no categorically biased. This is a fairly small, local paper. I'm a local resident, living and working in their community. I was not asking them to review 5000 books a day. I would not expect a small paper in Indiana to review mine. In this case, a reporter of local life and events was interested in reviewing my book because she found it worthwhile (which is an appropriate criterion) when the 'policy' forced her to contact me and say she couldn't do so.

And what does it mean when you say "the 175,000 books that are published each year"? My book is published. There's no worthwhile reason to place it in a line behind a lot of junk that traditional publishers foist on the public.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

andc39 said:


> And what does it mean when you say "the 175,000 books that are published each year"? My book is published. There's no worthwhile reason to place it in a line behind a lot of junk that traditional publishers foist on the public.


Very, very good point. Thanks, Andrew.

L


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Not all traditionally published books are good and not all self-published books are bad, but it has to be acknowledged that there is a better chance with the former of a well-edited and interesting story. I'm sorry, it's true. Traditionally published, in this case, means any publisher that has an actual approval process, pays the writer instead of is paid by the writer, and has the saints known as editors. That means that e-pubs can be traditional in those ways. That's why I understand why more priority is given at review time to books that someone other than the author deemed to be print-worthy. 

Delusional artists are not confined to the American Idol stage.


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## andc39 (Apr 5, 2009)

I agree with you. As long as it's not a black-and-white criteria. There's a lot of junk being self-published because no good editor would deal with it for very good reason -- "not worth the paper its printed on", as Wild notes. But as he also notes, that's not the whole story. A lot of junk is printed by publishers who should know better, but are only interested in what a suggestible public is willing to waste their money on -- this has nothing to do with editorial merit. (I wonder how Shakespeare or the authors of the Bible would fare in today's carnival of marketing. "Too heavy", "too many big words", "too long".). I had an agent tell me, with wonderful honesty, that he didn't want to represent my book, "Return to Meaning", because it wasn't the sort of thing that customers buy when in line at the supermarket. "Frankly", he said, "I'm the kind of guy who prefers coke to champagne". Well, my book is champagne, so I published it myself (and a look at the reviews it has so far garnered is a good indication that some other people agree. And no, none of those folks are relatives of mine).


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## boydm (Mar 21, 2009)

andc39 said:


> And what does it mean when you say "the 175,000 books that are published each year"? My book is published. There's no worthwhile reason to place it in a line behind a lot of junk that traditional publishers foist on the public.


Good points, Michelle.

To put it another way, published books have gone through an independent review process already. An agent, an editor, and an editorial review board have all said that this book is worthy of your time as a reader. That doesn't mean the book is good or that I will like it, but someone at least thinks I will. With self-published books, you don't have an independent authority--one without a personal stake in the author's success--saying that the book is worthwhile, so essentially the reviewer is the first independent judge of the book. If the reviewer were to open up to all self-published books, how is the reviewer to know what is worth his time to look at?

And remember, one man's junk is another man's gold. Lots of people hated The Davinci Code, but it still went on to sell 70 million copies.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I think one problem is that many people -- readers, reviewers and others -- think small, independent publishers are the same thing as self-published or vanity publishers -- and they are not. Over the past year -- really, since I've gotten my Kindle -- I would say that 80% of what I have read have come from small publishers, many who only publish in ebook format (or do ebooks until sales demonstrate that the book would do well in print). I have discovered some terrific authors and try to get the word out about them because small pubs don't have the sales and marketing departments of the "big houses." Even the "big houses" don't put significant marketing dollars towards many of their authors. In fact, I have known authors who have been "discovered" by the a major publisher and found out -- to their regret -- that they were treated better and their books promoted more widely by their original, small publisher.


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

I thought Andrew's letter was excellent, but as has already been mentioned, with so many books published only a tiny fraction can be reviewed. That's why places like Kindleboards are terrific. I'm not that interested in going to my local Chapters to buy the latest well-known writers' book. I want something new and different. POD publishing offers me a much wider reading selection than what the conglomerates and big-name reviewers think I should read. And for me, that's really important.

Debra


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## BrassMan (Dec 8, 2008)

I am one of a team of reviewers (including two other authors who are KB members) who review for PODBRAM. Our goal is to do what we can to identify deserving indie books. While we can barely make a dent in the landslide of titles, we have turned up quite a number of worthwhile books of many different types. Our reviews are unpaid. Authors and readers should beware of sites which do reviews for money. Their game is often rigged, and always suspect.

We still have a way to go to elevate deserving POD titles to full respectibility. My first book, _Distant Cousin_, is set in west Texas, yet the little cowtown newspaper out there (mentioned in the book--one of the main characters worked there as a reporter) refused to have anything to do with it. The reviewer for _Texas Monthly_, the "national magazine of Texas," has never reviewed a POD book, though I keep after their book man to reconsider. Since mine is pure fiction without any historical template to add interest, I might understand that, but Celia Hayes' trilogy about the German settlement of central Texas is completely deserving, and well received in the very area where it's set. (I have recommended the _Adelsverein _ trilogy in another thread.) The point is, they are chumps for ignoring her books.

Still in all, I agree with andc39. I don't see the advantage of a contract with a member of the traditional literary-industrial complex. Money is their be-all, but there's more to books than that.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

BrassMan said:


> I am one of a team of reviewers (including two other authors who are KB members) who review for PODBRAM.


What is PODRAM? I'd love a link. Sounds very interesting.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

They review POD/self pubbed books. 

http://podbram.blogspot.com/


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## BrassMan (Dec 8, 2008)

rjkeller said:


> They review POD/self pubbed books.
> 
> http://podbram.blogspot.com/


They (we) also list links to other quality POD-related sites, sources of information for authors, and keep an impressive list of reviewed books. All the reviews are polite but honest. A discriminating reader can find some excellent reads there--I have.


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 28, 2008)

Please allow me a moment to describe PODBRAM to all the Kindle fans. The acronym stands for Print On Demand Book Reviews And More and I am the founder and editor of the site. I am also the author of four books available in both POD and Kindle formats. The name PODBRAM was derived from the site's obvious goal of exposing some of the POD industry's better products, while comparing them side by side with selected traditionally published works. Books are books at PODBRAM, and they are either well-edited and proofread or we shall tell you so. Although our reviews are also posted at Amazon, acceptance for review at PODBRAM should be considered an honor. We work diligently to weed out the drivel so you don't have to do it with your time and money. Kindle availability and price are now routinely added to our reviews at PODBRAM.

PODBRAM was founded in July 2006 and now we have nine team members, all of whom are POD authors themselves. Dr. Al Past and Dianne Salerni are two team members who are also participants here at the Kindle Boards. Dr. Past has already written a very comprehensive article about the Kindle for PODBRAM, and I have been doing research for an upcoming article to be released soon. Al has really gotten me personally interested in the Kindle and its likely very bright future for self-published authors. According to my research so far, only about 5-10% of all the thousands of POD books are currently available on the Kindle, but surely that figure will soon begin to grow. Unfortunately, we shall still need sites such as PODBRAM to help us as readers avoid the many duds that have been published while the proofreaders were out to lunch.

I have a keen interest in learning more about the formatting necessary to make a book appear as the author has intended in the Kindle format. For an HTML-challenged author like me, this presents quite an obstacle. My own books, in particular, are complex in nature, so the formatting of simple paragraphs of text still leaves many questions unanswered for me. I would guess that there are a lot more self-published authors out there who would also like to learn more about the conversion process. This at least partially explains my personal interest and the need for my research.

Other PODBRAM reviewers who have released their books in the Kindle format are: Celia Hayes, Lloyd Lofthouse, Juliet Waldron, and Jack Dixon. I encourage all Kindle Board members to come pay us a visit anytime, and be sure to at least look up our books on the Kindle pages at Amazon. Thank you. Floyd M. Orr, Editor-in-Chief-Curmudgeon at PODBRAM.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Floyd,

You might want to check out this book. Joshua is one of our members here.


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

I've done some posts on my site about self publishing (for anyone who may be interested, here's a link to that thread), and all of it pretty well lines up with what's been said by the various folks here.

I'm sympathetic to reviewers who don't want to look at self-published (SP) books, because the vast majority of them - tragically - are terrible for one or more reasons, starting with basic proofreading and editing, and moving on from there. So many authors don't understand that writing the story - be it fiction or non - is just the start. You can have a great story, but the book as a product is still garbage if it doesn't look professional. That's what readers (particularly reviewers) expect, and part of presenting them with a quality product says that the writer cares enough about his or her work to polish it.

As Al and I discussed off-line sometime earlier, that's a tough process and takes a lot of time, and most SP authors don't want to deal with it. But the downstream impact is that reviewers don't want to deal with it, either, and those of us who do spend the time and energy to try and refine our work to reach mainstream standards have to somehow work beyond that.

Kilgore and Al at PODBRAM are certainly doing SP authors and readers a great service by pointing out some of the good (and great) books coming out. And, of course, KindleBoards itself has been an awesome venue for a lot of authors!! There are also lots of bloggers and other sites out there that can help out with their own reviews and so on.

While all that certainly helps, the real trick, I think, is to reach the mainstream reviewers and critics, the people who have thousands and tens of thousands of readers/followers. But how do we take good/great SP book and shove it through the "no self-published" barriers that these people have built up around them, when - as was mentioned here - even many local papers and magazines won't even look at something produced by an SP author who lives in their town?

One of the things I was thinking of was to have some sort of review panel or some such for SP authors to submit to, sort of like an Underwriters Laboratory for SP books, that would give some sort of quality seal (for lack of better term) to those that meet "mainstream standards" (we'll pretend for now that there wouldn't be a lot of squabbling over what the standards were - LOL!). Then if we could just get a single "big" reviewer on board to consider books bearing that seal, we might be able to reach a tipping point for those authors who have the talent and professionalism to write not only great stories, but produce great products. Yes, there would still be tons of competition in the numbers game, simply because there are so many books coming out every year, but that would help level the playing field a bit.

There are lots of issues with that sort of thing, and for all I know it's already been tried a bazillion times. But I just feel like we ought to be able to do something that'll get at least some of the really good SP authors and books out in the light of mass public readership alongside the mainstream stuff. And it's not necessarily just for the author's benefit (although come on, let's be honest: there aren't many of us who write who wouldn't mind having enough income from it to support ourselves!), but for the readers: a lot of the gems you can find in the SP world wouldn't be considered by a lot of the major houses because it's not the flavor du jour...


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 28, 2008)

Kreelanwarrior, I did not realize until a moment ago that you were the author of In Her Name. I think our mutual friend Al may have been referring to me when he mentioned in his review a person who liked his movies tightly edited, but he bought his books by the pound! I have bookmarked your website so I can read more when I get time. Yes, Leslie, I had already made a note of Joshua's book. I plan to get to that issue eventually. My problem is that I always spread myself too thinly. I run two other blogs, in addition to PODBRAM, and sometimes I try to squeeze in a life outside my computer, too!


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

I know that when I first put my book up on Kindle, I was dismayed with the look.  I'd gotten in this mindset of submitting to publishers and they want it formatted a certain way (bland and bare).  When I saw my preview of the book, I immediately went in and messed with the formatting until I got it the way I wanted it.  It took me two days of html coding.  Now I had an advantage in that I was a professional html programmer for 3 years and I taught it, so I could get out my rusty skills and buff it up... but ...

Again, when I went to POD, I got my first proof and blanched that I had such a mess.  The previews were there, but I was in that writer mindset, not a publisher/editor mindset.  It took me three proofs and another 3 days to get the paperback the way I wanted it.  That's when I realized I could make it PRETTY... I put in drop caps, worked the line spacing, and other formatting things... again, I used to teach Word to the advanced level, so I knew enough to do it... but...

Doing my cover was a joy because I also did graphics design in my web design job so I knew it... but...

I can't imagine how hard it must be for someone without extensive experience in Word, HTML, Graphics, and English (my mother the English teacher combed through the book) to put out a really good quality book.  Even with all the skills, I know I made mistakes.  And now I've hit my wall on publicizing... I have NO experience with that... I'm just following Ed around like a little puppy and doing what he's doing...

But I had a point.  It's too bad there aren't a few companies out there (or even individuals) who would do this for us... but those are publishers (small and large)... this seems like a vicious circle, but I suppose it's just growing pains of a burgeoning industry... I'm just happy to be in on it...

Trish Lamoree


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

vwkitten said:


> I can't imagine how hard it must be for someone without extensive experience in Word, HTML, Graphics, and English (my mother the English teacher combed through the book) to put out a really good quality book...


Trish -

You're absolutely right: it is hard, very hard, for many folks. Even just getting the books formatted (in any shape!) and uploaded to DTP and/or Mobipocket is a struggle for a lot of authors. That's not a ding on them, it's just another "challenge" set before someone who wants to go the independent route, and the instability and inconsistency of some of the current platforms (DTP in particular) is a further frustration. Like you, I'm fortunate in that I've got a lot of technical skills. But most folks have to muddle along as best they can, and there are those of us who try to help out others as much as possible (I try to spend as much time as I can on the DTP boards), but it's still a huge mountain to climb.

But the bottom line is that an indie author has to either put in time to learn the necessary skills, or put up the money to pay someone who has them; the only thing in between, tragically, are more books on the "Oh, another self-published book? Eww!" pile. 



> I have NO experience with that (publicizing)... I'm just following Ed around like a little puppy and doing what he's doing...


Well, just my suggestion, but if you haven't already I would strongly encourage you to check out http://www.publetariat.com, which is a growing resource of information for indies, and check out a copy of April Hamilton's The IndieAuthor Guide: A Comprehensive Reference to Self-Publishing And Managing Your Career In Indie Authorship. She has a lot of extra stuff in there on actually getting the book to print and onto the Kindle that you wouldn't need, but she has a very well thought-out section on indie book promotion that may be worth the price of admission for you just by itself.

Second, CS here on KindleBoards started an extremely useful thread on things authors should and should _not_ do (here on KB and in general) that should be a _must-read_ for every author in this community. CS started it off with some extremely good points, and there was a lot of excellent additional discussion.



> But I had a point. It's too bad there aren't a few companies out there (or even individuals) who would do this for us... but those are publishers (small and large)... this seems like a vicious circle, but I suppose it's just growing pains of a burgeoning industry... I'm just happy to be in on it...


Well, to publicize your book you could always pay a publicist who specializes in book promotion. But one of the general themes with indie authorship seems to be doing things on a shoestring budget. If I had an extra pile of money and a book I thought was top notch, I might think about it, but you've got to sell an awful lot of copies before you break even, and most of us don't have that sort of cash laying around.

As for the basic publishing tasks, BookSurge and other such companies can do all the legwork of taking an author's writing and converting it into a book (and there are folks who will do the same for publishing on Kindle). But again, that costs money up front.

Time or money. It always seems to be the same! D'oh! 

Cheers,
Mike


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

Thank you for the links and tips... I'm working my way through all the guides.  I'm worried sometimes about walking the line between honestly being excited about my book and being a pain.  I don't want to post too much, but I want to talk about things that interest me.

Trish


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

vwkitten said:


> Thank you for the links and tips... I'm working my way through all the guides. I'm worried sometimes about walking the line between honestly being excited about my book and being a pain. I don't want to post too much, but I want to talk about things that interest me.
> 
> Trish


Well, like CS and some other folks pointed out, we - the authors - here on KB are part of a community of people with a lot of common, and many diverging, interests. It's great to talk about all that stuff, and there are LOTS of very nice and interesting people here. And here and there are opportunities to tactfully and tastefully mention your work. As someone else mentioned, the folks here are readers, and many of them will be interested in your writing, at least to the point of checking out the sample. As I myself know from a great deal of very pleasant experience, they are also very interested in the authors who post here.

Even just putting a little blurb and link to your book in your signature file is a great way to "advertise" without getting in anybody's face (with the caveat that whatever you put in your sig file shouldn't be over the top - no need to "shout," as it were, since it appears in every post you have on the boards).

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being excited about your work - good heavens, you should be! If you're not excited about it, why should anyone else?? 

My own opinion with regard to your being an author here on KB: post, keep posting, and post some more! As you said, talk about the things you enjoy, starting your own threads and responding to other threads from other folks. With over 3,000 members now, this is a very nice forum to do that in. You don't have to "sell" your work here. Just be yourself and enjoy the community and you will see your own rewards from it. I have to confess that I haven't posted nearly as much lately as I used to, and a lot of what I have posted has been focused on my own stuff; for me, that's simply been a factor of time (which has been in extremely short supply lately), but I want to try and get more involved again - I just have to avoid the total addiction I had developed earlier, especially since I'm trying to get my next book written (on top of everything else)! LOL!!


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 28, 2008)

Although I have had blogs for several years, I am quite challenged by the particular system applied to the Kindle Boards. Please bear with me while I try to use the Link Maker 2.0 to link to my books and to link outside the Kindle Boards to my blogs.

My first book is a nostalgic collection of stories and articles about classic Corvettes and their place in American pop culture.



My second book is a combination reference, how-to, and nostalgic look at the family powerboat hobby in America at a very special time, just before a serious contraction in the market destroyed much of its affordability in 1982. The intent of the book is to keep affordable family boating alive through reference material that has remained very difficult to find.



My third book is the subject that is closest to my heart, a psychosocial theory that I formulated especially for the Baby Boomer Generation at the end of The Sixties. I have patterned my approach to life and learning on this theory since that time, and it has never led me astray.



My fourth book was intended as a last hurrah before Depression 2.0 settled in to dampen our American spirit. Yes, I am one of those prognosticators of gloom and doom from way back when, but this romp through the lighthearted spirits of our age represents my more optimistic side.



Assuming that these image links have all displayed correctly, please allow me to move on with my speech. I had been developing a long-term plan for exactly what I wanted to do to entertain myself online after my fourth book was released. After mostly unsuccessfully spending a zillion dollars and hours developing and promoting my POD books, I wanted to share what I had learned with more up and coming, promising, new authors. As many of you may have already surmised, I am not very enamored with small talk. I either want to take the stage with a carefully developed speech or I am as quiet as a shy mouse, so you may never see me racking up large numbers of short posts on this site or any other. One month after I launched the promotion of my fourth book, I founded what was then called iUniverse Book Reviews (iUBR). For a couple of years I was composing all the reviews on the site by myself, so I chose to limit the review submissions only to the POD publisher that I knew best. Although I knew at the time that if the project turned out to be successful, that changes would inevitably occur, this is how it all began. Now iUBR is PODBRAM (Print On Demand Book Reviews And More) and we have a team of reviewers to cover many genres and reader interests.

A little inside joke is that I came up with the name to honor Bram Stoker. I have read Dracula twice and I think it is one helluva literary masterpiece. If I have a favorite fiction author it is most certainly Anne Rice. I have read nearly all of her books, and many of them twice. My favorites are The Vampire Lestat, Queen of the Damned, and The Witch's Hour, all of which are in the twice category.

Although I love Anne Rice, most of my reading is of nonfiction. I have read a lot of books about classic cars, classic motorcycles, and economics/politics. My politico faves are Al Franken, Paul Krugman, and Jim Hightower. You might think I am a left-winger, and you would be correct, but I am currently reading Lou Dobbs' The War on the Middle Class and I am also a fan of Pat Buchanan's books. Just because I am a Democrat does not mean that some Republicans don't have something significant to say, too.

Here is the link to PODBRAM: http://podbram.blogspot.com/

Here is the link to my book and political blog: http://www.e-tabitha.com/

Here is the link to my Tiddlerosis blog: http://tiddlerosis.blogspot.com/


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 28, 2008)

Does anyone out there in Kindleland have an idea how many of the Kindle offerings currently are self-published books? Do you think that most of the $9.99 books are traditionally published and a large percentage of the cheaper ones are self-published? Have many of you purchased a Kindle book to discover that it was a poorly written, edited, and/or proofread self-published book?

Timeline of America: Sound Bytes from the Consumer Culture (Nonfiction in a Fictional Style)


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## boydm (Mar 21, 2009)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Does anyone out there in Kindleland have an idea how many of the Kindle offerings currently are self-published books? Do you think that most of the $9.99 books are traditionally published and a large percentage of the cheaper ones are self-published? Have many of you purchased a Kindle book to discover that it was a poorly written, edited, and/or proofread self-published book?


I would say that virtually all books listed for $1.99 or less on the Kindle are either self-published or in the public domain because the copyright has expired. There are a few books by established authors that are priced low or for free as a promotional tool, like Persuader by Lee Child, Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson, or Afraid by Jack Kilborn, but they are the exception.

  

That's what's great about the Kindle, though. You can download a sample, and if you like it, you can buy the whole thing. If you don't, it hasn't cost you anything.


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

I agree with Boyd's assessment: aside from the public domain works, very few of the pricier (I'd guess $4.99 and up) books are from self-published authors. That's a shame, actually, because a lot of the SP authors I think undervalue their work. There are others, of course, who want to push the limit at $9.99 and even higher (which I think is unrealistic in most, but not all, cases)...


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

I know this doesn't seem to be on the same note, but how much does a beginning author make in royalties per book?

I ask because as a SP author, I don't have any idea what an author would normally make.  Taking the publisher out of the picture should lower our costs.  I would think that as long as we're making a similar royalty, the lower price of our books may be more a matter of a value passed on to the customer?

Trish Lamoree


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

vwkitten said:


> I know this doesn't seem to be on the same note, but how much does a beginning author make in royalties per book?
> 
> I ask because as a SP author, I don't have any idea what an author would normally make. Taking the publisher out of the picture should lower our costs. I would think that as long as we're making a similar royalty, the lower price of our books may be more a matter of a value passed on to the customer?
> 
> Trish Lamoree


Trish - I doubt anyone can give you an honest answer to that question other than what they themselves make, because the returns vary so incredibly widely for SP authors. I've heard some folks say they make quite a bit, at least enough to support themselves; others make almost nothing.

As for mainstream authors, based on what I've read and discussions I've had with folks, the vast majority of authors don't exactly make buckets of money. In fact, most books published by the major houses wind up being financial losers (big surprise, since they don't allocate any marketing dollars for most of them), and a pretty short list of "big names" with huge sales carry the house. A lot of authors see a modest advance and that's it... :-(


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

No -- what I meant was, what does a general publishing house pay in royalties per book to the author?  I know it's a sliding scale, but for a beginning author... what would be the general percentage?

Trish


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

vwkitten said:


> I know this doesn't seem to be on the same note, but how much does a beginning author make in royalties per book?
> 
> I ask because as a SP author, I don't have any idea what an author would normally make. Taking the publisher out of the picture should lower our costs. I would think that as long as we're making a similar royalty, the lower price of our books may be more a matter of a value passed on to the customer?
> 
> Trish Lamoree


Royalties are all over the map. It depends on the type of book (fiction vs. non-fiction), estimated sales, and so on. I've published three textbooks. For two of them, the royalty rate was 10% for books 1-4999 sold; 12.5% after 5000. I'm third author on a med-surg text and for that, the royalty is a whopping 2.5%. Guess what? I haven't received a penny and the book came out in 2007.

I've heard it said that many/most authors never receive a penny beyond the advance, which might be anywhere from $250 to $100,000 (or more) depending on how famous you are and how much the publisher wants your book. I have a friend who received a $70,000 advance and used half that money to hire a publicist, since the publisher on her previous book did zero marketing and she didn't make any money off it.

L


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

Then side by side, a traditionally published author can make, generously speaking 12.5% off of a book that sells for about $9.99.


...Trad Pub. Self PubPublic Price $9.99 $2.99Author Royalty $1.25 $1.05Publicity Some NoneQuality of Editing Consistent SporadicQuality of Writing Consistent Sporadic

What it boils down to is an exchange. 
As an Author: An indie author has the confidence in their own writing; enough so that they are willing to make their own covers, take responsibility of their own formatting and editing, and do their own publicity. A traditionally published author has ensured their work is good enough because a publishing house likes it, has only minor editing directed by a professional editor, and doesn't have to do their own formatting or artwork (but also has no creative control over it).

The difference is like a kid who goes to college. The indie author is working their way through college, while a traditionally published author has a full scholarship. It's still about the college degree, not how you get there.

To the Customer: You, as a customer, are paying $7 per book for a publisher's opinion about what you're going to like, consistent formatting, and a pretty cover.


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

All good and valid points, Trish. The biggest trick for SP authors is marketing and publicizing. That's a challenge for every author, but that's really the whole trick, beyond royalties and price points: making lots of people aware that you've got something that they might enjoy reading...


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## rndballref (Mar 29, 2009)

As in Illinois politics, and so many other things in life, you'll understand "why" when you follow the money.  The internet has liberated so many industries because of the efficient delivery of information (such as retail stock trading, newspapers, magazines, and of course publishing).  It is the new ground zero of commerce.

In the past, I would have had to rely on an agent and/or publisher to front ad money for a marketing campaign.  I can Twitter something about my book and get to 1200 (and growing).  I can post it on discussion forums and have thousands exposed to it.  The problem is, that if it is easier for me without a middleman, then it is easy for the thousands of others who compete for the readers' attention.  

Let's follow the money.  What economic function does an agent provide that a self-published author cannot obtain?  I think it is no longer economic; the agents' edge is who they know.  Getting on Oprah surely sells books, and don't get me wrong - if I had the chance to go pump my book on her show I'd be there in Chicago minute, but look at her track record for being duped with her non-fiction choices.  Her recommendations are tainted.  As information flows better and faster, the agents' edges dissapate.  The book market will evolve to ferret out the junk books from the great or even good ones.  We just don't know the mechanism yet - will it be Amazon reviews, etc?

As a poet and songwriter once said, "The times, they are a-changing."

Yale R Jaffe
author, Advantage Disadvantage


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## vwkitten (Apr 10, 2009)

rndballref said:


> As in Illinois politics, and so many other things in life, you'll understand "why" when you follow the money. The internet has liberated so many industries because of the efficient delivery of information (such as retail stock trading, newspapers, magazines, and of course publishing). It is the new ground zero of commerce.


I was just thinking on the same lines about this. What the internet did for online businesses, it is now doing for book publishing.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I just noticed, as I was checking out a book that I wasn't sure if I'd purchased or just sampled (easier to check on Amazon than page through my Kindle), that I did indeed buy the book and the "others who bought this book also bought" list is all books by authors here. . .probably purchased by a bunch of KB members!  But, to the extent that non KB'ers find one of the indie books, they're going to find them all through that list. . . .

Ann


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## BrassMan (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, I'm an eager reader in addition to an author, and so far I haven't had enough of a jones for a book to spend more than $6 on the Kindle edition. There are so many good ones for less. I did spend $17, I think, for the dtv of _Dreams From My Father_, but I knew I wanted to keep it, consult it, and lend it, something that's hard to do with a Kindle edition.

As for my own works, I don't have a publisher to wrangle with, and I've been fortunate to be enough of an editor, and have editing-minded friends, to get along without having to shell out for professional help. A high-dollar editor might improve my work, but I'm not ashamed of it and readers have had few complaints. I'm the only author I know of to offer a money-back guarantee if not satisfied. There was one sourpuss review at Amazon but whoever it was didn't ask for a refund so I've yet to have to cough up. Let's see a traditional publisher try that!

As far as I know, Amazon takes 60% of the retail price, though they may make special deals with the literary-industrial complex. For budget-priced authors like me, that's the arrangement.


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## CeliaHayes (May 25, 2009)

Well, I am a POD author, *and *a reviewer for a handful of on-line sites and yeah, I'd be the first to admit that a lot of the current POD output does, indeed, suck with sufficient force as to pull in small planets. But it's the same with the current conventional publishing - a lot of that output also sucks just as mightily. The only intelligent thing to do, when faced with the huge number of books wanting review is to do as outfits like PODBRAM, or TheDeepening do - which is to do a quick search of any sample chapters posted anywhere by the author, and decide if that particular books looks like a good prospect to spend time reading and reviewing.

It's not rocket science, but it seems to be beyond the understanding of that particular newspaper. Eh, it's also beyond the ken of my own local newspaper, which also can't be bothered, even though I am doing events and book club dates all over the county and am getting fan email from everywhere. Their loss, I'm afraid.


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## Carol Hanrahan (Mar 31, 2009)

It's an exciting time to be an author.  More publishing opportunities means more people will publish, and more great stories will come into existence than ever would have before.
Probably a naive way of thinking, but that's my view of it.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

I've been fortunate to discover some really stirring and exciting pieces of literature that might never have seen the light of day were it not for POD publishing. Anything that allows more voices to be heard outside of the "don't call us, we'll call you" elitist corporate pageantry is a good thing and should be supported.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Carol Hanrahan said:


> It's an exciting time to be an author. More publishing opportunities means more people will publish, and more great stories will come into existence than ever would have before.
> Probably a naive way of thinking, but that's my view of it.


Well said. I know I've said this before, but when someone like Nora Roberts has a problem finding a publisher (about 12 or so years ago), it shows just how tough it is to break through. This is our opportunity, so we'd better grab it quick.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

> One of the things I was thinking of was to have some sort of review panel or some such for SP authors to submit to...


And I think we may have discussed this before on Amazon, but I abhor the idea. There is just no way to do it that does not in some way, at some point, become a discriminatory practice weighted in the favor of some arbitrary and exclusive criteria. It didn't work for the star-bellied Sneetches, and it won't work for books.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Greg Banks said:


> r the star-bellied Sneetches


but. . . .but. . .they're the best kind of Sneetches on beaches! 

 Sadly, not on Kindle.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

CeliaHayes said:


> The only intelligent thing to do, when faced with the huge number of books wanting review is to do as outfits like PODBRAM, or TheDeepening do - which is to do a quick search of any sample chapters posted anywhere by the author, and decide if that particular books looks like a good prospect to spend time reading and reviewing.
> 
> It's not rocket science, but it seems to be beyond the understanding of that particular newspaper. Eh, it's also beyond the ken of my own local newspaper, which also can't be bothered, even though I am doing events and book club dates all over the county and am getting fan email from everywhere. Their loss, I'm afraid.


Useful information, Celia. Thanks.

Indeed it _is _grim out there, and articles like this don't exactly encourage:
http://paulskemp.livejournal.com/48689.html

I write for the love, and I hope, in a dreamy what-if way, for the money. The Library of Congress makes sure I'll last as long as the Union does, and going to fantasy cons as a guest professional has been a blast. No complaints.

In all equanimity,

CK


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## Kilgore Trout (Dec 28, 2008)

Kindle formatting has been one of my recent obsessions, as you may have guessed from some of my posts within this thread. I just posted my review of Michael R. Hicks' how-to book at PODBRAM, and I am about to begin reading Joshua Tallent's book for review soon. I never would have discovered either of these books without The Kindle Boards!

http://podbram.blogspot.com/2009/06/publish-your-book-on-amazon-kindle.html


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## CeliaHayes (May 25, 2009)

I think one of the most useful aspects of an outlet like Amazon, is that option of being able to actually "search inside" and to read sample chapters. It doesn't take more than reading a couple of chapters or two, or even just a few pages to know if the author is any good and if you are truly interested in reading more.

And after all, isn't that what the agents and major traditional publishers do? Ask for sample chapters, from which they make a snap decision. So now, ordinary readers have the same data to use in making a decision on buying a book that the literary powers that be have ... Power to the People, y'all!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

I've never understood the logic of authors who don't use the "Search Inside This Book" feature, especially the authors who have written a really good book. I don't know if the service is still free for all POD authors. My publisher recently started charging authors for this service. But it's an indispensable part of getting readers to take interest in one's book. How else is a reader going to know if a book is what they are looking for unless they read a sample for themselves?

In my opinion, any author who refuses to use the Search Inside This Feature is setting themselves up for failure. Fortunately, Kindle owners can always download a sample of a book before purchasing it, leaving the guesswork to readers of DTB's.


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