# Alternate History



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I like to read the odd bit of alternate history, some of the most well known authors of it being Flint, Turtledove and Birmingham. You know the kind of thing; what if the Germans had won WWII, what if the US Civil War had ended in stalemate (or the South had won), or what if Atlantis had existed as a separate continent in the middle of the Atlantic during the colonial expansion of the European powers, that kind of thing.

Anyone got any favourite series or authors to offer up to share?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

S.M. Stirling's _Conquistador_ and _Peshawar Lancers_.
Turtledove's _Ruled Britianna _ (the Spanish Armada succeded). Turtledove and Richard Dreyfuss's _The Two Georges _ (the American Revolution didn't happen). 
Flint's _1631_ and _1632_, but the rest of the series has gotten unweildy.


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## Casper Parks (May 1, 2011)

I'd have to go with Eric Flint...


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## Julie K. Rose (Jul 5, 2011)

I quite liked Bitter Seeds by Ian Tregellis.


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## Dr. Laurence Brown (Jun 23, 2011)

Great thread and suggestions. I would also recommend Eric Flint.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

scarlet said:


> S.M. Stirling's _Conquistador_ and _Peshawar Lancers_.
> Turtledove's _Ruled Britianna _ (the Spanish Armada succeded). Turtledove and Richard Dreyfuss's _The Two Georges _ (the American Revolution didn't happen).
> Flint's _1631_ and _1632_, but the rest of the series has gotten unweildy.


What she said - I love all 6 of those books - but I've kept reading Flint's novels ....

I would Add to them Steven Barnes' _Lion's Blood_ series which is unfortunately not in print and not on kindle but is the story set in a colonial America where Carthage defeated roam and North Africa, not Europe, became the center of Western Civilization. Fantastic series.


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## Julie K. Rose (Jul 5, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> What she said - I love all 6 of those books - but I've kept reading Flint's novels ....
> 
> I would Add to them Steven Barnes' _Lion's Blood_ series which is unfortunately not in print and not on kindle but is the story set in a colonial America where Carthage defeated roam and North Africa, not Europe, became the center of Western Civilization. Fantastic series.


o___O

That Barnes series sounds _amazing_. Luckily my library system has the first, and I just requested ILL for it. Thank you for this rec!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Not a _favorite_ story type of mine, but I've been known to enjoy some of them in small doses, e.g. the "Belisarius" books by Drake/Flint, or the Harry Harrison "Viking" books. And I suppose I could include Christopher Moore's _Lamb_, too.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

I like S.M. Stirling's "Change" series, for me it's more apocalyptic fiction, but I can also see it as alt. history. I like his writing style altho I find his premise very contrived and have heard from people who've read the whole series (so far) that he never explains who or why the Change occurred. Without that, the fact that batteries and gunpowder, for ex., dont work, to me seems like an authors' unsupported _convenience_.

But again, I like his writing style and storylines...and it takes place in my backyard which I also like.

I've only read "The Disunited States of America" by Turtledove who is supposed to be highly regarded. I found the story very juvenile and the alternate world not nearly fleshed out enough. So I'm not impressed by my introduction to his work.

I've read a few other books in this genre, mostly warlike and thumbs down (and I'm into guns! I have no problem with war...but I need good writing and good stories. It's like they're throwing testosterone, unnecessarily in-depth weaponry descriptions, and violence at an immature male audience). I'd really like to 'like' this genre but have found little to impress me so far. I'll take the Hunger Games over Turtledove or the couple of others I've read so far.

Sorry for the negativity...I'd love something to be positive about. So please...I'd love some other recommendations.


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## Wintings (Feb 16, 2011)

What does "alternate history" mean? _Alternate_ is a verb not an adjective but even if it you were to allow its use as an adjective it would mean "switching repeatedly between one history and another", in other words alternating between them. I think what we are talking about here is alternative history.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Wintings said:


> What does "alternate history" mean? _Alternate_ is a verb not an adjective but even if it you were to allow its use as an adjective it would mean "switching repeatedly between one history and another", in other words alternating between them. I think what we are talking about here is alternative history.


I was waiting for someone to post this.

I was merely using the genre title that seemed best known.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

9MMare said:


> I like S.M. Stirling's "Change" series, for me it's more apocalyptic fiction, but I can also see it as alt. history. I like his writing style altho I find his premise very contrived and have heard from people who've read the whole series (so far) that he never explains who or why the Change occurred. Without that, the fact that batteries and gunpowder, for ex., dont work, to me seems like an authors' unsupported _convenience_.
> 
> But again, I like his writing style and storylines...and it takes place in my backyard which I also like.
> 
> ...


Often these stories do rely too heavily on the bells and whistles of their historical twist to get by. There are few series out there that put as much effort into the depth of characterisations or plot as far as I have seen, but that doesn't mean that they're not out there.


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## Wintings (Feb 16, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> I was waiting for someone to post this.
> 
> I was merely using the genre title that seemed best known.


Fair enough, Colin. Good on yer, mate!


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

9MMare said:


> I've only read "The Disunited States of America" by Turtledove who is supposed to be highly regarded. I found the story very juvenile and the alternate world not nearly fleshed out enough. So I'm not impressed by my introduction to his work.


That series, Crosstime Traffic, is YA and I've read two of them but they are a little young for my taste as well.

I recommend Ruled Britannia or In the Presence of Mine Enemies as examples of his finest work. The first is set 10 years after the Spanish Armada conquered England and the second is the story of a group of Jews living in 21st century Nazi Berlin.


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## Straker (Oct 1, 2010)

I really liked _*Guns of the South*_ by Turtledove. I thought his characterization of R.E. Lee was excellent.

However I think the whole "What if the Germans had won WWII?" thing has been done and overdone in print, film, and television.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Wintings said:


> What does "alternate history" mean? _Alternate_ is a verb not an adjective but even if it you were to allow its use as an adjective it would mean "switching repeatedly between one history and another", in other words alternating between them. I think what we are talking about here is alternative history.


'Alternate' certainly is an adjective, and the meaning fits its use here.

The definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alternate



> 1al·ter·nate adj
> \US & Canada ˈȯl-tər-nət also ˈal-; chiefly British ȯl-ˈtər-\
> Definition of ALTERNATE
> 1: occurring or succeeding by turns <a day of alternate sunshine and rain>
> ...


Definition #4 perfectly fits with the phrase 'Alternate history'.


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## scl (Feb 19, 2011)

The Crosstime Engineer by Leo A. Frankowski.  This one has a Polish Engineer getting sent back in time and causing a split in the course of history.  He's in a big rush to be able to build up the military might necessary to keep the mongol hordes out of Europe.  There's a whole series of books, but I've only seen the first 3 or 4 when a friend lent them to me maybe ten years ago.  I thought they were really good, but they seem to have remained pretty obscure.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> That series, Crosstime Traffic, is YA and I've read two of them but they are a little young for my taste as well.
> 
> I recommend Ruled Britannia or In the Presence of Mine Enemies as examples of his finest work. The first is set 10 years after the Spanish Armada conquered England and the second is the story of a group of Jews living in 21st century Nazi Berlin.


Thanks! I didnt realize that the one I read was YA. I will give him another chance


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Straker said:


> However I think the whole "What if the Germans had won WWII?" thing has been done and overdone in print, film, and television.


You know, I've never read one...which one(s) would you recommend?


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I tend to avoid "the south won the civil war" and the "nazis won WWII" books, but I do recommend Turtledove's _In the Presence of My Enemies_, it is told from the point of view of Jews hiding in 21st Century Germany three generations after the war. He warned, it has A LOT of point of view characters, so if you don't like head hopping, be wary. Also, he has a fascination for the card game Bridge, and some of the card playing scenes are draggy. The interesting thing about _Enemies_ is that it started as a short story in one of his collections, and eventually he wrote an entire novel.

He recently released a short story titled "Shetl Days" which is kind of interesting.

His _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_ might not meet most people's definition of alternate history, since it concerns a world almost exactly like ours but where magic works and science is less popular. It's a fun book, one of my favorite Turtledoves.

My problem with the genre is that it is series heavy. Most authors can't seem to tell a story in a single novel. Flint's _1631_ was meant to be a single book but it was so popular it continued and is now too unwieldy for me.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

scarlet said:


> I tend to avoid "the south won the civil war" and the "nazis won WWII" books, but I do recommend Turtledove's _In the Presence of My Enemies_, it is told from the point of view of Jews hiding in 21st Century Germany three generations after the war.
> 
> My problem with the genre is that it is series heavy. Most authors can't seem to tell a story in a single novel. Flint's _1631_ was meant to be a single book but it was so popular it continued and is now too unwieldy for me.


I looked at some of Turtledove's alt. WW2 books...they didnt really appeal, at least not from the descriptions. I'd like something that describes_ the world _ after Germany winning, for ex, not just what Germany is like.

And I agree with you on the second point!


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

9MMare said:


> I looked at some of Turtledove's alt. WW2 books...they didnt really appeal, at least not from the descriptions. I'd like something that describes_ the world _ after Germany winning, for ex, not just what Germany is like.
> 
> And I agree with you on the second point!


I can understand your point about wanting to see the rest of the world, and in fact, part of _Enemies_ takes place in Britain.

And remember, it's easy to sample a book, decide if you like it how it reads or not and then delete. Blurbs don't tell the whole story.

For instance, Turtledove's Japan winning Pearl Harbor sounded interesting, so I sampled it. Hated the writing so I didn't buy it.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

scarlet said:


> For instance, Turtledove's Japan winning Pearl Harbor sounded interesting, so I sampled it. Hated the writing so I didn't buy it.


_Days of Infamy_? I loved that there were only two in that series - so a single, large book really - and the way he portrayed life on Hawaii under the Japanese as well as reaction on the mainland was great.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> _Days of Infamy_? I loved that there were only two in that series - so a single, large book really - and the way he portrayed life on Hawaii under the Japanese as well as reaction on the mainland was great.


It's only two books? I thought it was more. My mistake.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

it ends in a spot in the war were it could have continued for a few more books - but he either decided to end it there (which made it a nice ironic ending) or he never got around to writing more ....


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> it ends in a spot in the war were it could have continued for a few more books - but he either decided to end it there (which made it a nice ironic ending) or he never got around to writing more ....


Knowing Turtledove, I'm opting for the second option, and somewhere he is plotting to continue.


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## Alessandra Kelley (Feb 22, 2011)

Richard Garfinkle wrote alternate history _and_ physics in Celestial Matters. It's Ancient Greece in a cold war with Ancient China while in a space race to travel through the crystal spheres of space in a ship made of moon-matter to steal a piece of the sun to use like a hydrogen bomb on the enemy, told from the perspective of a very conflicted physicist.

Not available for the kindle, unfortunately, but a fun read.

Nepotism alert -- my husband wrote it. It was published by Tor in 1996.


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## Straker (Oct 1, 2010)

9MMare said:


> You know, I've never read one...which one(s) would you recommend?


None, really. I just think the whole concept is very tired. Of course, I feel the same way about vampire novels but the book-buying public seems to disagree.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

If you do not mind a romance-heavy plot, I loved Meljean Brook's IRON DUKE. It's set in a steampunk alternate history, where the Mongols took over the world.

I also really enjoyed COLD MAGIC by Kate Elliott, which has a Rome that never fell, IIRC, and the heroine is Carthaginian in Regency England.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

I just downloaded this:



There's a thread for it over in the Book Bazaar:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,76020.new.html#top

The key "what if" question is:

_Till the 17th century, one superpower accounted for almost a quarter of the world's income- the same share as that of the United States today. That superpower was what we know today as India under the Mughal Empire. Years of internal strife, attacks by Afghan raiders and finally conquest by the British led to the decline and destruction of this mighty empire.

But what if India had never been conquered by the British? What if it remained a mighty and prosperous nation under the rule of the Mughal Empire?

A nation known as Hindustaan._

Looks interesting.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Let me know what you think _Hindustaan_ .... I'm intrigued and may have to get it myself ....


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## erikhanberg (Jul 15, 2011)

I've read two interesting Alternate Histories.

The first is The Yiddish Policeman's Union, by Michael Chabon. It imagines that instead of being settled in Israel in 1948, they settled in Sitka, Alaska. The book takes place in 2005 as their "lease" on the land begins to expire, so it may not be what you're looking for.

And then The Years of Rice and Salt, by Kim Stanley Robinson. The book starts in Medieval Europe and imagines what the world would look like if the Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans instead of a third. http://amzn.to/oEJflH The way it tells its story is that it follows two characters to continue to be reincarnated throughout the new history. (It kind of feels like a James Michener book that way.) So you see what Robinson things the world would look like if Europeans hadn't come to power. Because of the structure, some of the stories aren't as good as others. But it's the biggest-scope alternate history I've read.


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

9MMare said:


> You know, I've never read one...which one(s) would you recommend?


This is not quite the same, but I'd recommend Philip Roth's THE PLOT AGAINST AMERICA, which posits, Lindbergh, antisemite and Hitler sympathizer, is elected president. Very convincing.


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