# The Difference between Erotica and Erotic ROMANCE



## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

This is really long, but I think writers of erotica might find it helpful, if they don't already know this stuff. So be patient with me! 

I've noticed something among indie erotica writers. Some of them don't do very much research before writing and/or marketing their book. They list it as a genre that it really doesn't fall in. I'm not calling anyone out here, just pointing out some common mistakes that many (though not all) erotica/ER writers are making.

If you don't package/market your book aimed at the proper audience, you could get a backlash from people who are angry because the book wasn't what they expected. All the stuff that follows is my opinion, but it is also based on research I've done, particularly for erotic romance, including information from Redlines and Deadlines, the writing blog for Ellora's Cave. The editors have done surveys at conventions, asking readers what they like, so they should know.

Erotic Romance: There is an actual plot line throughout the story, where the couple meet, start falling in love, obstacles (both internal and external) keep them apart and they get together in the end with a Happily Ever After, or in erotic romance, at _least _a Happily For Now. The sex should be important to the plot (for _developing the relationship_, not just for fun), but if it's erotic *romance *the focus of the story is, by definition, the budding relationship. There are rarely more than two partners in erotic romance, because it is difficult to create a true, believable romance between more than two partners. It is sometimes done, but usually menage books fit better in the erotica genre. One important distinction: *erotic romance is almost always geared toward women.* The occasional man may read it, but regardless, it is geared toward women. It can vary from "plain vanilla" (just m/f, and regular exciting sex, but no BDSM, fetishes, etc.) to very risque', with all the crazy, inventive stuff. It is very much "open door" sex, with no "fade to black" or euphemisms. The sex is not just thrown in, it is woven through the plot. It is necessary.

Erotica for Women: I list this separately from erotica for men, because storylines that a man think is erotic can often be a turn off for a woman. This is a broad generalization, but women want to see one man and one woman (with the exception of the m/m--male on male-- niche market, which is geared toward heterosexual women who like m/m scenes). Men, take note: most women do not fantasize about being one of several women with one man. That is a man's fantasy. According to a comment I saw from an editor (I believe she was from Ellora's Cave) they cannot even _give away_ a f/f story. Most f/f stories are written for lesbian women by lesbian women, or are written for men. Straight erotica does not have to have an HFA/HFN. It can include fetishes, BDSM, multiple partners (done the way WOMEN like, which is usually one woman and multiple men). There IS a plot line, and it's not just "two people meet in a bar and have great sex all weekend"...unless it's a very short story, and women still like some character development and a little bit of backstory thrown in. The intention is to captivate and titillate the woman, but not just be intended to get a woman off (though some women might use it for that). It is about the story, not just the arousal. The heat level can vary in these too, and they can still be "plain vanilla", but tend to run toward the wilder stuff.

Erotica for Men: True erotica for men should be, like erotica for women, about the story. It should have a real plot, and not just be a masturbatory aid. The difference is that it caters to what men like. For example, in women's erotica, the hero would make it a point to pleasure the woman first, possibly more than once, before he seeks his own gratification. In men's erotica, it would be the reverse. If the story IS just all about the sex and intended as a masturbatory aid, it's actually porn. I don't know a whole lot about men's erotica other than that. Now, the fact is, much of men's "erotica" is really just porn packaged with a prettier name, because the writers of those stories don't understand what the point of erotica is. If it reads like something out of a girlie magazine or the "plot" of a porno movie, it's porn, regardless of the name you put on it. I feel for the guys who really want a _story_ with a real plot, and have a hard time finding one.

Porn: Anything that is intended primarily to arouse you to the point of masturbation. There is little plot, no character arc, no real backstory, no "layering", and probably no subplot. It's all about the sex. The story takes a backseat, and is really just backdrop for the sex. It is often unrealistic (college girl is desperate for an A, so she seduces professor in the classroom and they have raunchy sex) and contrived, because the point of the story is to excite, so any time spent on character or plot development is considered "wasted".

I'm not criticizing any of these genres, just simply pointing out the differences, so writers can avoid making mistakes. For example, if you want to write erotic romance, your audience is *women*. Do NOT write a story about a guy that works in a women's prison, and the women are all over him. At best, that is men's erotica, but most likely it is really porn. If you want to write about a women's prison (still not a topic I think would sell well to women) and make it ER, you would make it about a woman who was framed and sent to prison (making her more likeable by her not actually being guilty), and now trusts no one, and a guard who reluctantly falls for her. They begin a torrid sexual relationship, all the while falling in love even though they try not to, because of all the obstacles they face that keep them apart, including their own personal emotional issues. In the end, she is set free, they realize nothing is more important than being together, and they live HEA. See the difference?

One reason to know which audience you are shooting for is covers. I see many people claim they are writing erotic romance, but the cover doesn't "say" that. Erotic romance should be a man and a woman (or two men, if it's m/m) in a sexy embrace, preferably half-naked, but not showing any private parts. The focus should be equally on both partners, or possibly focusing more on the man. The woman should not be too porn-star looking. The average woman wants to identify with the heroine of the novel. You could also go with just a man on the cover, particularly a shirtless man with muscles. NEVER put just a woman on the cover who is almost naked, with heaving giant breasts and tons of makeup. That does NOT say "erotic romance." That will not entice women. That cover says "this is erotica/porn geared to men". Close-up of a woman's mouth licking a lollipop? Same thing...geared toward men.

A women's erotica cover should have the torso of a naked man (or men, if it's a menage story), or a man and woman who are kissing/embracing and are half-naked or completely naked but with private parts creatively obscured (you probably don't want a naked cover that shows nipples, etc., because I'm guessing that could get your cover banned on some websites, but I'm not sure).

Men's erotica should have a sexy woman on it, wearing skimpy clothing, in a sexy pose. (Doesn't have to be a sexy pose if the woman looks sexy.) Don't put a non-sexy woman on the cover. People will be confused. Don't put a picture of a teenager that *could *be considered underage. That says "this might be for pedophiles". Also, be absolutely SURE that the pictures you use are licensed for what you are using them for. Stock art usually has a signed model release, but YOU have to check and find out what restrictions there are. For example, if you just download a picture from a stock website without knowing if the model is actually 18 and you put it on the cover of a porn/erotica book, you could be in for a lawsuit by that model's parents if she turns out to be underage. Also, a model could put restrictions on the useage. There is a male model on this board who specifically states his picture cannot be used for certain types of depictions. Another thing to think about: if you didn't purchase the picture legally, you're in trouble regardless of what you did with the picture. You must either own the rights or buy a legal license to use the picture.

It really is important that your book is marketed toward the right audience. Don't put in "romance" as a tag if it's not a romance novel. You're not going to attract a romance reader and have them think "hey, this novel about six women and one guy sounds great." Instead, you're going to have annoyed reader, who may leave a one star review as retailiation. And don't put "erotica" as a tag if your book is really just a spicy romance. You will really tick someone off, especially if they buy your book and feel cheated.

Like I said, this is all my opinion, and I'm sure someone will disagree with me. But I think if you spend some time researching the genre you want to write for, you just might end up agreeing. I'm sure someone may say "but I'm a women and I like multiple-woman stories" or something similar. Great! But you're not average. You fit in a very small niche. So if you like those stories, market them as such, maybe putting in a "warning" as an advertisement to what the story contains. "WARNING: This story is for women who love an adventuresome heroine who receives smokin' hot love from the sexy twin sisters who live next door." But if you're a guy writing that story, you'll be at a distinct disadvantage if you don't actually know a woman who likes that stuff, so they can tell you if you're on the right track. Otherwise, you could (and probably will) stray into "men's fantasyland".

I hope this helps someone. Targeting your true audience is key to brisk sales. Don't just say "my stories sell fine"...who knows if they might sell even better if you are properly targeting your audience.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

I guess no one made it to the end of my long missive.  Hey, I tried to edit it!  Really, I did.


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## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

I like it, actually, it's a really good breakdown.

And it'll totally help me, particularly if I can figure out how to slide hot mfm into ER, instead of just erotica.  Drat the difficulties of making three people realistically fall in love and not just be all over each other while saving the earth....


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Content removed circa September 2018 after realizing this forum was bought by VerticalScope -- a foreign corporation with seemingly suspicious motives and a bad attitude apparently attempting to grab rights retroactively. They can have the rights to this statement!


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## Lisa Scott (Apr 4, 2011)

I wish I wrote erotica.  That was really helpful information, and interesting to understand.  Any erotica I wrote would be of the unintentionally funny variety, and I don't believe there's a market for that.


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## jimbronyaur (Feb 9, 2011)

I just read it.  I have no comment because the information makes great sense.

-jb


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

Followed through to this from a different thread you posted in. This was really great. Should I ever write erotica, it won't be placed in the incorrect sub-genre that's for sure, thanks


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## Erica Sloane (May 11, 2011)

Does this have anything to do with this thread? http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,75350.msg1208341.html


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Good info.  Thanks.

It made me realize some my covers are geared towards men, when most of the positive feedback I get is from women.  May have to rethink that.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

Good explanation and clarification.

As a reader, I prefer to know what to expect when I buy a book.

As a writer, it is always best to hit the right market instead of taking a scattergun approach.

Kat


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Actually, I loved it. 

Yes, I'll admit something that might tick off writers here:

Twice I have returned books to amazon b/c the cover, description AND tags didn't show it was erotica/erotic romance. No reviews were up (although both writers got some real doozies later from other people) either, so that was no help. Both looked like a contemporary romance based on the cover and description.

This is literally the only reason I'd consider returning a book...so, personally -- this was great!!! May everyone read it who needs to start promoing their er/e soon


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Good definitions, though I would argue that menage can definitely be romance.  In our society, we tend to be biased toward monogamy, but there are plenty of people out there who find polyamory romantic.

Regarding the difference between erotic romance and erotica-- I have one short under my other name that's written entirely from the viewpoint of a guy, and it has to do with his fantasies about her (we don't actually meet the woman till the latter third of the story).  I got one indignant review that said essentially that it was just guy fantasies, and that I was clearly a man.  While I was flattered (you have to figure you're writing the male viewpoint successfully if readers mistake you for a male!), I also realize I was messing with the expectations of the romance genre more than usual.  I like to write from the male viewpoint, but a whole story from the male viewpoint is very unusual in romance, and so is a story in which both characters don't feature equally.  I may consider relabeling that story as simply "erotica" rather than "erotic romance."  That being said, it's been a pretty good seller for me, so I may just leave it alone.  But it's something to think about, anyway.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Franklin, that sounds like male fantasy, not female fantasy, so I'd call it erotica for men.


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## A_Writer_ (May 22, 2011)

Good definitions, Juliette.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Wonderful post - thank you!

I have a new title coming out soon with the word "erotic" in the tag line. I've been a little worried about reader expectations because it truly is an erotic romance - but not erotica. You've put me more at ease about the whole thing.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

That is very helpful!  I've been struggling to figure out where my stories fit in, as they have a fair amount of plot, a lot of character development, and some erotic elements.  Sounds like I should be in the erotic romance category (with a very particular niche that I'm aware of).  I'm going to think about this in terms of my future covers and marketing efforts.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

LKRigel said:


> I have a new title coming out soon with the word "erotic" in the tag line. I've been a little worried about reader expectations because it truly is an erotic romance - but not erotica. You've put me more at ease about the whole thing.


I think if you put "An Erotic Romance" as a subtitle, like a lot of people do, you'll be fine. So the title would be "My Erotic Book: An Erotic Romance". Although, if it was me, I'd take "erotic" out of the title and keep it in the subtitle, because it could sound redundant.



Amanda Brice said:


> Franklin, that sounds like male fantasy, not female fantasy, so I'd call it erotica for men.


Yep, I have to agree with Amanda. 100% male fantasy. Not that some women couldn't enjoy it, but on the whole, it's men's fantasy. By labeling it erotic romance, you could be keeping away some men who don't want romance.



EllenFisher said:


> Good definitions, though I would argue that menage can definitely be romance. In our society, we tend to be biased toward monogamy, but there are plenty of people out there who find polyamory romantic.
> 
> I have one short under my other name that's written entirely from the viewpoint of a guy...
> 
> ...I may consider relabeling that story as simply "erotica" rather than "erotic romance." That being said, it's been a pretty good seller for me, so I may just leave it alone. But it's something to think about, anyway.


I agree, menage can be romance, but I think it's difficult to do believably. But a talented writer with experience (writing, not necessarily in menage, lol) can do it. For your male fantasy story...yeah, I can see why some readers would be upset. If you choose not to relabel it, you might want to at least mention it prominently in the blurb, or at the end of the blurb. It definitely sounds different than any book I've heard of before. 

Caitie:

I too will return a book if it's been mislabeled, in my opinion. In one case, it was an erotica book that was really (to me) gross, and was labeled as if it was a plain vanilla erotic romance. I left a blasting one star review, and I never do that. I'm usually very polite on the rare occasion that I leave a one-star, but I was soooo mad, so I was a little more blunt. The writing wasn't good either...and it was a legacy book!


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I think people need to also realize that erotic romance is a sub-category of ROMANCE romance.

Just because your book has:
1) Sex
2) Romance

Does not automatically make it an erotic romance, and labeling it as such can work against you. Just like every book with a love story is not a romance, every book with sex in it is not erotic romance or erotica. Sometimes it is just a book with sex in it. Erotic romance is _extremely_ sexual romance, often with stuff a little on the more risque side. If your book has one tame sex scene in it and you label it as erotic romance, you are going to get a flurry of bad reviews from people buying and expecting a lot of steamy stuff.

For example, in my NY books, I fall into the sexier end of paranormal romance (four sex scenes and a lot of risque talk). I recently wrote an erotic romance for a different publisher and I ended up putting in 12 sex scenes and well over 50% of the plot was sex-based.

There are lots and lots of subcategories of romance. Erotic Romance is just one particular type. Erotica isn't actually romance at all, as Juliette broke down pretty well.  You don't have to be erotic romance OR erotica - there are plenty of other flavors of romance out there than just erotic romance, and judging from some of the covers I'm seeing her (and descriptions), I think this might be a little unclear.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

K. A. Jordan said:


> Good explanation and clarification.
> 
> As a reader, I prefer to know what to expect when I buy a book.
> 
> ...


Excellent point. I think that's the problem sometimes...new writers take the "scattergun" approach, thinking they should market it to as wide an audience as they can. But as John Locke says, you don't just want a wide audience, you want a deep one...an audience that returns to buy every book you write. Writers trying to lure readers in with tags that are not appropriate to their book just invites one-star reviews from pissed off readers. But then, equally as often I think it's just an ignorance of the genre differences. People should _really _research their genre before publishing. A lot.



swolf said:


> Good info. Thanks.
> It made me realize some my covers are geared towards men, when most of the positive feedback I get is from women. May have to rethink that.


True, you might have to rethink it. But then, could it be that the men just aren't as likely to write in? It's hard to say. But if you do find your audience to be mostly women, then you do want the cover to be geared more toward women, or at least neutral.



Erica Sloane said:


> Does this have anything to do with this thread? http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,75350.msg1208341.html


LOL I knew someone would think that. No, this is a topic I've wanted to write about for a while, but I was lurking for a long time and hadn't signed up for KB til this week, so it was just a matter of timing. But I see this a lot on KB and other places. It always surprised me that more new indies don't do research on their genre before trying to write, upload and publish a book. And that's part of why indies get a bad name. It hurts us all. A little research goes a long way. (But a lot of research is much, much better!)



Crenel said:


> Anyway, I've pondered that it could be more _profitable_ to publish erotic-something, but I expect any attempt on my part to write such a book would turn out lame at best. I won't punish any readers by wandering down that road.


Eeek! A comment like that could bring a storm of angry responses from some people. But I'm of the opinion that it doesn't hurt to try a new genre IF you do it right, and are willing to give it up if you don't do it well. But before you try, you need to research. Find what type of erotica you like to read, then read a bunch of it and try to learn as much about writing it as you can, from successful authors, editors, etc. Redlines and Deadlines blog is essential, especially for ER. THEN, and only then, try writing. Promise yourself it won't see the light of day unless someone brutally honest and knowledgeable about the genre thinks it's good. Make sure you enjoy writing it. Sex scenes are a bear to write *WELL*, and they are the most obvious scenes when they are written badly. And the hardest part? There are only so many words that are acceptable to use for genitalia and the things you can do with them, which is frustrating. Also, if you don't really love writing it, if you somehow manage to become successful (not likely, because your lack of passion will show in the story) you will end up hating it, because people will expect more and more from you, and you will begin to detest writing it, have horrible writers block, and a storm of locusts will descend upon you. (Okay, I may have exaggerated that last part.) But if you're willing to do the work, I say try it! Couldn't hurt. Just don't publish it unless you love writing it AND it's really good.



lazyjayn said:


> I like it, actually, it's a really good breakdown.
> And it'll totally help me, particularly if I can figure out how to slide hot mfm into ER, instead of just erotica.  Drat the difficulties of making three people realistically fall in love and not just be all over each other while saving the earth....


LOL It can be done. You don't want my advice on that. NOT turned on by two guys!  Well, at least not who touch each other.  I'd recommend reading up even more on m/f/m that is Erotic Romance, and maybe contacting some Ellora's Cave m/f/m ER writers through their blogs to ask them a question or two. To me, the hardest part of making a menage into a romance would be getting past the natural jealousy and competition that humans would feel in that situation, and the how you could work around that to make the relationship believable. That's the tricky part.

By the way, if anyone wants some good links for learning about this stuff, check out the links in the sidebar of my blog: www.juliettedupreeauthor.blogspot.com


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Jill, thank you for adding that!  I didn't even think to mention that.  Glad to have some pro advice.    

LOL--12 sex scenes?! Wow, that would burn me out.  None of the books I read have that many, but I do read "plain vanilla" ER, so I'd say 4-6 is the average there, depending on book length.  At least three though, even if it's a short story.  Jill, the story that had 12 sex scenes--was that a wilder type of ER, or was it the preference of that particular publisher?

I'd love it if more of the experienced ER writers would chime in, as you have.  It seems like most of the successful erotica writers on here are writing real erotica or erotica/porn, not ER, so it would be nice to hear from people who are writing the same thing I am, to hear about tips or how their sales have been.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> I think people need to also realize that erotic romance is a sub-category of ROMANCE romance.
> 
> Just because your book has:
> 1) Sex
> ...


Oh, good point. Maybe my books are just romance that happen to have a few fairly tame sex scenes.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2011)

Gee. So I'm wondering how to position my tale about sixteen transgendered cricket players running into sixteen narcissistic lesbian midgets in a steam room during rubdowns.

To me Romance is when there's a lot of kissing & hugging & chasing with an eventual capture.

Erotic is when the capture happens and the sex act is described in some detail.


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## Erica Sloane (May 11, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> LOL I knew someone would think that.


I was just wondering because you got some responses from people who write what you would classify more as erotica, when you clearly stated you were talking about erotic romance. I thought maybe that ticked you off or something.

I label one of my seven publications "erotic romance." It's very different from the other six I've written. Incidentally, it fits your definition almost perfectly. Although, I disagree with your rules about the covers.

The only reason I responded in that thread was because another poster asked about erotica ebooks.

So...I was just wondering if I was one of the offenders.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Juliette Dupree said:


> LOL--12 sex scenes?! Wow, that would burn me out. None of the books I read have that many, but I do read "plain vanilla" ER, so I'd say 4-6 is the average there, depending on book length. At least three though, even if it's a short story. Jill, the story that had 12 sex scenes--was that a wilder type of ER, or was it the preference of that particular publisher?


I don't know? It's for the Berkley Heat line. I said in my proposal that "I think it needs this much sex" and they were good with those numbers. So hey. I've certainly written books with a lot less sex. 

It really depends on the line, though. I actually (and this is going to sound nerdy) counted sex scenes in other Berkley Heat books when I got contracted just to make sure I was going to hit the mark that fans were looking for. Each full length novel (about 100k) had about 10-15 sex scenes in it.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Good writeup. It's sort of how I viewed the genres myself, though I'm not convinced that men really want a lot of story in their erotica.


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## TheGapBetweenMerlons (Jun 2, 2011)

Content removed circa September 2018 after realizing this forum was bought by VerticalScope -- a foreign corporation with seemingly suspicious motives and a bad attitude apparently attempting to grab rights retroactively. They can have the rights to this statement!


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Gee. So I'm wondering how to position my tale about sixteen transgendered cricket players running into sixteen narcissistic lesbian midgets in a steam room during rubdowns.


Parody.


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Erica Sloane said:


> I was just wondering because you got some responses from people who write what you would classify more as erotica, when you clearly stated you were talking about erotic romance. I thought maybe that ticked you off or something.
> 
> ...The only reason I responded in that thread was because another poster asked about erotica ebooks.
> So...I was just wondering if I was one of the offenders.


No, there were no offenders.  Something just reminded me that I've been wanting to do a post about it. Because as a reader, I enjoy finding the books I like easier, without having to wade through tons of them that shouldn't be in that category. As writers, I think we all benefit when we target our niche correctly. I don't even remember what you wrote, actually, so now I'll have to go back and see if it "offends" me. 



jillmyles said:


> Each full length novel (about 100k) had about 10-15 sex scenes in it.


Oh, wow, that explains it then. That's a long book, so I guess 4-6 sex scenes would seem like far too few.


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## gregoryblackman (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't have the best book comparisons, but as I see it:

Erotica = Porn (Debby Does Dallas)
Erotic Romance = TV soft core (Red Shoe Diaries)

Not diminishing romance novels at all, if I could write a decent one, I would have .


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## Juliette Dupree (Jul 12, 2011)

Gregory, that's actually not true at all.  At least not in women's erotica.  I won't claim to know what defines men's erotica.  Women's erotic a has a story in it.  Porn movies are generally simplistic storylines that contrive a way to get the characters in a situation that portrays men's fantasy sex scenarios.  There's no character development, real plot, real emotions, etc.  If there was a porn movie like that, I'm guessing it wouldn't be too popular with men...too many "boring" parts.  

As for erotic romance, you can't compare it to any tv show. (Is Red Shoe Diaries a show? Or a TV movie? I don't know.)  A romance has a Happily Ever After ENDING.  If it's an ongoing series, that means the characters didn't get their HEA...they are thrown in constant conflict, and sooner or later the show's writers will feel the need to break the couple up, to keep things fresh.  

People don't realize that a true romance novel isn't just a book where people fall in love and have sex.  Lots of books have those elements, but aren't romance. There are many elements that make up a successful romance novel...and if you stray from the romance readers' expectations, woe unto you--they WILL call you on it.


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## gregoryblackman (Jul 11, 2011)

I was incredibly misinformed, I appreciate the clarification.


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## GabriellaFox (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks for the excellent description.  Being a noob here I really need all the help I can get!  Thanks again!


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## MichMasoch (Dec 1, 2011)

Great write-up. There's virtually nothing I can or would disagree with in your information. It's d*mn near water-tight. 

The only minor quibble I'd have is with depictions on the cover of male vs female erotica. I think it's perfectly appropriate to use a sexy photo of a woman on the cover a female-oriented book, especially if the POV character or a primary MC is a woman. There must be more thought put into the woman shown and how she's portrayed, though. If she reflects the MC and is portrayed in a more sensual vs sexual light, in my opinion, it's still a great choice (especially if the story can cross-over and appeal to men). 

Since most of the erotica I write is niche and sub-niche, BDSM and vampire (plus BDSM vampires), I skirt the line between what will traditionally appeal to men and women within general erotica. I'll usually kick off with a scene that has male fantasy overtones, but bring it down to earth with a bit more realism and sensuality vs straight-up sex content. We've found, at least in the content we produce, that women don't seem to mind male fantasy themes if they're approached from a more sensual angle and the women portrayed are whole persons rather than objects to be used. We're getting an even better reaction from men to shooting content that's actually much less explicit but focuses on being sexy instead of just sexual. Hopefully, that alchemy works in books as well. All the stories I'm expanding now were written mainly to get the models in character for our shoots so, if the imagery works, ideally so will the words that inspired them.  

In the novella I'm working on now, the story is rather romantic (in its own special, bloody way) but is definitely NOT a romance. I couldn't imagine labeling it as such, since I'd be pretty steamed if a misleading description stuck me with a romance novel, since it's just not my thing.


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## markcooper76 (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for the helpful information. The two always appeared as a blur to me and now I finally get the difference


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## SaraPeoples (Feb 5, 2012)

very good thoughts


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## j_call (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow! This was really informative - thank you Juliette for taking the time to write this all out. Ascribing a genre is of course a huge deal to authors seeking to properly describe and brand their work for the sake public consumption. It can be difficult though feeling, as a writer, as if you must label what you feel is your unique creation, and particularly when writing on subjects (love, romance, human sexuality) all too often deemed 'womens lit' / 'chick lit.' 

As far as marketing though, I will definitely be keeping all of this in mind.


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## Lady TL Jennings (Dec 8, 2011)

Thank you Juliette for an excellent summary!

Although I must say I do agree with MishMasho when it comes to cover design. But then again I do have corsets-clad women on my front cover (so I am of course rather biased), but perhaps with a romantic/ historical touch which I think works pretty well.

I do believe there may be a different between styles as well. For example if you have a picture of a semi-nude girl in a cheerleading outfit spreading her legs that may indeed draw more male attention, while a sensual picture of a woman in beautiful lingerie may still catch the eyes of female readers.

For my single short stories (I have in total 14 out) I have a pictures of both women or men and so far I have not been able to figure out what will sell and what will not just based on the cover. Then again, other factors such as colour, title, and blurb would of course play an important role as well...

_Wishing you all the best with your writing!

Yours / Lady T. L. Jennings_


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## Annie Seixas (Feb 15, 2012)

This is a helpful thread! Golly, it makes me wonder if I've labelled my stuff correctly


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## AngusOg (May 26, 2012)

Newbie here, with a genre question. I make a living writing (case studies and magazine articles) and thought I'd try erotica as a change of pace - I've published it before, in an online magazine.

So, my first venture is a collection of several stories, 1,500 - 3,000 words. They are kinky and explicit, BDSM flavored, but they have strong plots and characters - definitely not _just_ sex.

I realized as I collected the stories that most were written in first person, from the male's viewpoint. But, I see these as erotica for women. The women characters are strong and interesting, and if they are ceding control, it's their choice. No forcing.

So here's my question; what is the relationship between viewpoint and audience? Can a story aimed at women be written from a male viewpoint?

And related: does any genre of erotica appeal to both men and women? Or is it always one or the other?

Sorry if these are basic questions answered elsewhere, and sorry if I've messed up the formatting in my first post. Great stuff in this thread.

thanks!


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## Guest (May 27, 2012)

A few years ago a very popular genre was erotic westerns.

The cover had a cowboy and a cowgirl, but the story was all hard core sex.

They sold like hotcakes (perhaps they still) because the reader could walk around with a "western" paperback without raising eyebrows.


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## Simone Noelle (Jul 16, 2012)

Juliette,

Interesting post. I would add that just as we all have different sexual fantasies, one person's erotica romance is another person's erotica and one person's erotica could be another person's porn.

Personally, I consider porn a visual medium - whether it is intended for men/women or both. And who's to say that a man's fantasy is not also a woman's fantasy. Erotica is porn in the written word.

You mention (I'm paraphrasing) that in erotica intended for women the male(s) would pleasure her first before taking care of their own needs. Personally I find that boring, and I'm a heterosexual woman. Some women get their sexual power/pleasure from taking care of a man, that's what turns them on. So I think it really depends on the reader and it's hard to define what's erotica for men, for women, what's porn, etc.

If we look at the best selling Delilah Fawkes, Laura Lynley or Aphrodite Hunt, they could be considered porn by your definition- to me they are erotica.

For erotic romance, I think of Lorelei James although there's a least one gang bang scene in an otherwise romantic novel.

Anyways, I think the descriptions and samples and word of mouth are the best way for readers to guide them as to what fits their own tastes.

Those are my thoughts. Great discussion, what do others think?

Simone
 www.simonenoelle.wordpress.com


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

This is a great post as are the comments that added to the info, so thanks.

I'm not sure that I agree with the cover "absolutes", though.  50 Shades definitely bucked the trend and it sure didn't hurt Ms. James at all.  Her covers looked sophisticated for sure and hinted at bondage (okay,strong hints with the handcuffs), and they totally worked.  Her covers are striking and don't disappear in the genre like so many erotica and romance book covers do.  So in my opinion, for any genre, sometimes it's better not to follow the current trend, but to start a new one.  Why?  Because when I look at a cover that looks like all the others, my brain says, "Same old, same old."  When I see a different style of cover, but very well done, still hinting at the genre, my brain says, "Well, hello there ... who do we have here?  Maybe something better than the average run of the mill..."


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## Alexis-Shore (Feb 20, 2011)

I found the best way to educate yourself about readers' expectations is to engage and communicate with readers. To that end, the Kindle Smut group on Goodreads (among others) is an excellent place to chat and learn about the genre and all its various sub-genres.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

TattooedWriter said:


> *raises hand*
> 
> Question: Does Amazon even *have* a category called "erotic romance"
> 
> My next book will fit into this category but I can't see it anywhere on Amazon's site. Books that fall into that category seem to be categorized as either "Erotica" or "Romance".


No. Sad panda is sad. You have to basically put your erotic romances in the other categories (contemporary, paranormal, etc).


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

They also don't seem to have a gay romance category, which is annoying. Lumping books into huge categories like "gay" and "erotica" seems likely to tick readers off. The best we can do is label and describe as clearly as possible, I suppose.


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## Emily Ryan-Davis (Jun 8, 2012)

I've been writing erotic romance (for erotic romance publishers) for six years, so nothing new to me (but thanks for offering it to people who don't know).

I will, however, say that all the appropriate cover, appropriate title, appropriate blurb and flashing neon signs with arrows pointing at the starburst behind the EROTIC will not save you from someone still coming along to say "I'm no prude but this story had too much sex in it". Sorry. People just don't comprehend, or willfully ignore, or something. There's no magic ticket to avoiding reviews from people who got something they didn't want or that made them uncomfortable.


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## Tiffany Towers (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanks Juliette that's a wonderful post.

I thought I had my books tagged right until my mother told my aunt that I have started writing PORN!


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## Marina Maddix (Sep 7, 2012)

Juliette, I think this is a very helpful and detailed post. As a newbie to erotica, I'm gratified to know I was pretty on-target, but still learned a lot. 

Stupid question, I'm new to the forums here and don't see a way to tag this post for later review. I've found several posts I would love to refer to in the future. Is the only option to bookmark it in my browser or is there a button I'm missing?


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## casey_7 (May 18, 2012)

AngusOg said:


> I realized as I collected the stories that most were written in first person, from the male's viewpoint. But, I see these as erotica for women. The women characters are strong and interesting, and if they are ceding control, it's their choice. No forcing.
> 
> So here's my question; what is the relationship between viewpoint and audience? Can a story aimed at women be written from a male viewpoint?


I won't say no outright, because there are always exceptions, but what you've just described is erotica for men.

>>But, I see these as erotica for women.

But do women see them that way? Are your reviewers male or female? That's the clincher. For every reviewer, there are 10-20 who share the same opinion but haven't reviewed. Who are your reviewers?


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## Ilyria Moon (May 14, 2011)

Thanks for this post, OP! I'm going to re-read it, as I have a stab at writing short story erotica (in a bid to keep my sanity while editing my novel).


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## M. P. Rey (Nov 3, 2012)

Tiffany Towers said:


> Thanks Juliette that's a wonderful post.
> 
> I thought I had my books tagged right until my mother told my aunt that I have started writing PORN!


LOL. funny remark


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## cekilgore (Oct 31, 2012)

jillmyles said:


> I think people need to also realize that erotic romance is a sub-category of ROMANCE romance.
> 
> Just because your book has:
> 1) Sex
> ...


Both the Op Juliette and Jill in the above quote make excellent definitions of the categories, which are three: Romance, Erotic Romance and Erotica. Figuring out where your manuscript fits in on that scale can be a real headscratcher for writers, especially if they are new to the genre or writing in general. Where you end up putting your books really does make a big difference as far as the type of feed back you will get too. When you add another category in front of those three, like in my case Science Fiction, you can really end up chasing your tail when it comes to choosing the correct categories to put your work in.


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks for the distinction.


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## mandyharbin (Oct 18, 2012)

I’ve been published for a few years now, have books in ebook format and print… pubbed with publishers and also starting a self-pubbed YA series under a different name (I like to diversify). Early on, I searched for a few bloggers to host me and do some reviews for my first erotic romance release, and it wasn’t too bad. Then later on, I paid for a blog tour…talk about crazy hectic (and iffy on whether it was actually worth the money). Now, I’m trying to focus my money on advertizing, rather than paying for a tour, and just set up my own dates with bloggers (it helps that my publisher has made the first book in my series listed as free for the time being.)

BUT, Even some promo sites where you PAY for them to send your book info out to their followers (or post to their site) reject books because they consider them “erotica”… when they are actually "erotic romance" (and I’ve read a novel classified as ‘erotic romance’ that had only one sex scene in it). I know the distinction has been mentioned here before (been a long time lurker), but why is it that other industry players don’t understand the difference? Has anybody here been successful breaking the barrier with a “…everything except erotica…” promotion, review, blogger, etc. with explaining the difference and getting them to promote you? I’ve only been able to do it once and it was because my book had over 20 reviews and over 4 star average.

*Sigh* I have a new release coming out on Friday, and it’s just frustrating.


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## JohnCaprini (Feb 8, 2013)

casey_7 said:


> I won't say no outright, because there are always exceptions, but what you've just described is erotica for men.
> 
> >>But, I see these as erotica for women.
> 
> But do women see them that way? Are your reviewers male or female? That's the clincher. For every reviewer, there are 10-20 who share the same opinion but haven't reviewed. Who are your reviewers?


I'm a male writer, who's just released a collection of short erotic stories, all from the female POV, using both first and third person. All of the stories are based around a specific popular female fantasy, and most of these stories feature strong women, and women being in control.

It was predominantly written for women, and I think I've done a pretty good job- do you think it's possible for a male to successfully write women's erotica?

I'm currently writing an erotic romance novel (for women), 'live' and posting my material, rough or otherwise, on my blog at the end of each day: johncaprini.tumblr.com if anyone's interested in following my progress...


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## AnitaDobs (Sep 18, 2012)

I suggest the best thing to do to avoid all this classification confusion, which many people disagree on, is to make a new all inclusive/encompassing catchy genre title:

EromticaBDSMcuckholdmilkmaidanalvampiretentaclemonstergangbanghardcoremenagebreedinggayromantichardcorewomenseroticaFORmenandmenseroticaFORwomenorpornifyoulikefluffyromancewithspiceandbondageequalopportunitieseroticalikefiftyshadesofgreybillionairedominationinterracialornotasthecasemaybesoftcoreeroticaorotherwiseknownasanythingthatmakesyouwetorhard

Kind of rolls off the tongue doesn't it.

I think I missed a few, but you can't have everything now can you.


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## kdarden (Aug 23, 2012)

Great definitions - I've been having this debate with a few other writers - made more confusing to me because of a blogger who posted a "non-erotic romance" excerpt of hers, that, at least for me, seemed pretty erotic.  I realize that many of the new "romance" novels are pretty hot, but to me, if there is graphic sex, it's erotic.

Thanks for posting this originally, and for the ensuing conversation. I'm posting to bring this back to the top for others, like me, who appreciate this information.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I realize that many of the new "romance" novels are pretty hot, but to me, if there is graphic sex, it's erotic.


How graphic is "graphic," though? Under my other name, I write romances with a good deal of descriptive sex, but they're still not "erotic romances," and if I labeled them that way, readers would get justifiably angry with me. The best way to figure out erotic vs. steamy is, I think, to read both. Eventually you get a feel for the difference.


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