# Erotica lacking originality and substance?



## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

After reading eight coming of age/eroticas that appear to be selling well and have amassed lots of reviews. 

Here's what I've discovered they all have in common:

1. Lack originality ( nearly all of them have the guy as some rich idiot who has zero manners but for some reason the dumb woman thinks that's endearing and she can't wait to do whatever he says, even if it borders on what would be classed as ABUSIVE in today's world. Then you've got the cover art ( Some guy with rippling muscles ). Stereotypes and cliches are rampant! Not to mention how most are just 50 shades of grey repacked, different job, different intern. Please.

2. Lack substance. ( At least give me a story. Most of the focus is the sexual encounter ) The story seems to take a backseat. These books remind me of two kids on a playground showing each other their private parts for the first time. Oooohh. Aahhhhh. In the words of John Stossel "Give me a break."

3. Lack surprise. ( Nearly all of them you can figure out within a few chapters.) Dear me, hold some things back, allow for some subtext.

I'm all for a bit of slapandtickle but i pick up a book to read a good story. If I want porn story i would just buy a porn magazine or go on a porn website.Surely there is a decent story out there in the erotica/coming of age categories? or have readers lowered their standards to just body parts 101, as most of it just seems like mindless drivel?


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## Jj2011 (Oct 1, 2014)

Weird complaint. Ur talking abt a very specific subgenre. The 50 shades knockoff genre. They r giving people who enjoy that stuff what they want. It's like someone who only reads romance complaining that a zombie book has too many zombies. Well that's the genre. Didn't u know that going in?


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Jj2011 said:


> Weird complaint. Ur talking abt a very specific subgenre. The 50 shades knockoff genre. They r giving people who enjoy that stuff what they want. It's like someone who only reads romance complaining that a zombie book has too many zombies. Well that's the genre. Didn't u know that going in?


There is a difference between having a book full of zombie killings and an amazing story ( The Walking Dead ) and a book that has tons of zombie killings but ZERO story.

Problem here is the lack of story. Most are painful to read.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

As a reader of erotica, erotic romance and such, I do agree to some extend. Its hard to find the good stuff, its hard to find erotica with actual plot that is interesting. There are just so many more books that have been  put up over the last year. I think part of it is the bandwagon jumping. Just here on this board alone I see posts all the time where other genre writers try to slap some erotica up and see if it sticks so to speak. Excuse my pun.  
So they tend to look at whats out there already and mimic. So you get a lot of sameness. 

My solution has been to stick with known authors that have been doing it for a while. But it really is hard to find what I am looking for in the sea of sameness wham bam. 
I also stay away from shorts and I found them to be without plot or story in general and just again wham bam. By sticking with full books, or at least novellas, I have a higher chance to get some characterization, character growth, story and plot and I want to change page after page. 
My brain after all is still engaged when reading turn on books.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

If you want story and substance, maybe erotica isn't the genre you should be reading. By definition erotica includes sexually explicit details as a primary feature of the action. If you want more story with the action, you may want to read erotic romance instead. (Although I have a feeling you already knew that.)

You say "Problem here is the lack of story. Most [erotica] are painful to read." There's an obvious solution to that one, too.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

This is kind of like complaining that porn has no plot.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Jena H said:


> If you want story and substance, maybe erotica isn't the genre you should be reading. By definition erotica includes sexually explicit details as a primary feature of the action. If you want more story with the action, you may want to read erotic romance instead. (Although I have a feeling you already knew that.)
> 
> You say "Problem here is the lack of story. Most [erotica] are painful to read." There's an obvious solution to that one, too.


Totally disagree, they are not mutually exclusive. I can have substance and erotica and I demand it. Even if a book is driven by sensuality and sex, like erotica is, it doesn't mean it can't have a fulfilling emotional, adventurous, thrilling story along with it. 
On the top of my head I read Megan Hart that manages to do that. I have read others, but don't have my spreadsheets ready. Its just hard to find them in the big sea.


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## Starstruck (Nov 1, 2013)

I'm confused, what are you even asking?  It sounds like you're talking about erotic romance (erom), not erotica.  50 shades is generally seen as erotic romance because even though a lot of it revolves around sex, the majority of it focuses on the relationship between the two characters.  So I'm not sure if we're even talking about the right genre.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Totally disagree, they are not mutually exclusive. I can have substance and erotica and I demand it. Even if a book is driven by sensuality and sex, like erotica is, it doesn't mean it can't have a fulfilling emotional, adventurous, thrilling story along with it.
> On the top of my head I read Megan Hart that manages to do that. I have read others, but don't have my spreadsheets ready. Its just hard to find them in the big sea.


I didn't imply that any two things are mutually exclusive. However, a lot of erotica is not known for intricate storylines or substantive plots. Notice I said "a lot," not "all." Just as mystery novels or contemporary romances run the gamut from simple to complicated, so do erotica. But if I read ten mysteries (or ten romances) and do not enjoy them, I'm pretty sure I'd try another genre for a while.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Jena H said:


> I didn't imply that any two things are mutually exclusive. However, a lot of erotica is not known for intricate storylines or substantive plots. Notice I said "a lot," not "all." Just as mystery novels or contemporary romances run the gamut from simple to complicated, so do erotica. But if I read ten mysteries (or ten romances) and do not enjoy them, I'm pretty sure I'd try another genre for a while.


I agree that a lot of erotica lacks the plot, but why should I stop reading a genre I like all together, just because a lot of that stuff is in there. That doesn't make sense to me at all. I have certain genres I like to read and I will read those. I have no interest to change genres. I know what I want to read when I want to read it. I am just saying its gotten really hard in recent months, couple of years, to find what I am looking for.

If I happen to read 10 bad romances in a row, I am not going to stop reading romances. I would just adjust my vetting process. Thankfully I don't have that problem because my vetting is pretty good in general. Quick solution is always to not go for any new author, but someone I have read before and has been around a while.

I have said this before, I would love to have filters by length on Amazon. I don't need erotica filtered out or anything, but if I could filter by length, I could already exclude a lot of the shorts that are just a sex scene. With the same thought those that like those shorts could find them that way easier too.

And I am not totally sure about the OP and if he/she meant erotica or erotic romance, but I am talking about erotica right now. I assumed that is what the thread was about. Of course a lot of that type of short erotica is also being stuck into romance now to bypass the filters, which then makes it hard to sift through  romance.

Browsing has pretty much lost all appeal to me as a reader and I used to do long browsing sessions. Now I let review sites, blogs and other readers do the browsing for me. I welcome gatekeepers as its often called around these parts. Saves my sanity.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

The most popular erotica is likely to have an averaged-to-the-mean level of taste, and if you don't share the tastes of most people, you have a problem.  Readers are often too embarrassed to review erotica, so it's always going to be a difficult task to find the good stuff.  There's a real need for a good erotica recommendation website.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2014)

I do agree with the OP to some extent

I read romance-erotica and erotica. For the past few weeks I have been reading tons of short erotica stories and I've already said that 70% of the books I've read _are not_ kinky enough or hot enough or satisfying enough for my tastes.

If I'm reading a 5000-8000 short erotic story I do expect a mini plot, a set up, some anticipation of what's to come and then some dirty hot explicit act. And I want the author to give a good detailed account of the explicit act, not he "put his tool into her keyhole".

I have read a dozen 'fifty shades' type romance erotica novels & novellas and some are really lacking in plot but they are full of lots of sex with an ahole alpha male, which often attracts glowing reviews. Also you could change the book cover and title but it's pretty much the same story over and over again.

I've spoken to authors who know their stories lack plot or originality or need some editing but they are selling well and paying their bills, so why change things.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2014)

EelKat said:


> I'm not a big fan of free floating sex scenes with no point or purpose to them. Most stories under 7k are just that...sex, sex, sex...wait...what was the character's name again? why are they having sex? Why should I care? Yeah, I want the sex, but dang it all I want some story before the sex, to tell me who this character is and get me interested in caring about the character. I need to have an invested interest in the character before any sex scene containing that character is going to turn me on. Free floating sex scene with no character background, no plot, no story, really just are not my cup of tea.


I agree with this


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Atunah said:


> I agree that a lot of erotica lacks the plot, but *why should I stop reading a genre I like all together, just because a lot of that stuff is in there. That doesn't make sense to me at all.* I have certain genres I like to read and I will read those. I have no interest to change genres. I know what I want to read when I want to read it. I am just saying its gotten really hard in recent months, couple of years, to find what I am looking for.
> 
> If I happen to read 10 bad romances in a row,* I am not going to stop reading romances.* I would just adjust my vetting process. Thankfully I don't have that problem because my vetting is pretty good in general. Quick solution is always to not go for any new author, but someone I have read before and has been around a while.
> 
> ...


I didn't suggest "stop reading [insert genre] altogether." I said try another genre _for a while._ As in, take a break. Going back to a type of novel after a few weeks away can make for a refreshing experience.


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## 75910 (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm not sure you can make a sweeping judgment about an entire genre after 8 stories.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think ALL erotica is shallow porn, but the fact is that shallow porn sells really well. Not sure if I should put a smiley or frowny emoticon after that. I know some stuff about the genre that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. So. I already see that it's super easy to make money. I just have to ask myself if I want it to be THAT much easier to make money... It's easy and cheap enough to write already. 

I will either: A. continue to expand my erotica empire by moving into well developed erotica, or B. Just use it as a financial foundation to write the scifi books I prefer for long term career growth. 
C. Do both. D. continue to write porn indefinitely and forget about everything else while I lock myself in a dark room writing 5000 word stories every day.  

Erotica is easy to write. Yes. But obviously, not everyone is successful. So, it's easy to write for SOME people. I think we all have to remember that.


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## Susan in TX (Sep 17, 2014)

kalel said:


> Surely there is a decent story out there in the erotica/coming of age categories? or have readers lowered their standards to just body parts 101, as most of it just seems like mindless drivel?


This would be more in the New Adult ERom category--not really erotica--but try J Lynn's _Wait For You_. I read it three times straight through. H is not rich and not an entitled jerk, though he does make some 20-year-old type mistakes. A h that does not just jump in--quite the opposite. Has the expected/required HEA--it's a romance--but the path to the HEA is not entirely predictable.

I have to admit that I stay away from NA ERom for exactly the reasons you mention, but occasionally there is something new.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> I'm not sure you can make a sweeping judgment about an entire genre after 8 stories.


Plus there's a lot of sub-genre's within Erotica anyways. Monster erotica, PI, aliens, shifters, vampires, etc.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> I don't think ALL erotica is shallow porn, but the fact is that shallow porn sells really well. Not sure if I should put a smiley or frowny emoticon after that. I know some stuff about the genre that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. So. I already see that it's super easy to make money. I just have to ask myself if I want it to be THAT much easier to make money... It's easy and cheap enough to write already.
> 
> I will either: A. continue to expand my erotica empire by moving into well developed erotica, or B. Just use it as a financial foundation to write the scifi books I prefer for long term career growth.
> C. Do both. D. continue to write porn indefinitely and forget about everything else while I lock myself in a dark room writing 5000 word stories every day.
> ...


I am pretty new to this genre - short erotica and I did not know that it sold so well. I am writing a couple short erotica stories right now and I will admit that I am only writing it for the money.

I have read/heard/been told some things about writing short erotica which I am uncomfortable with too. *One thing I have been told twice now, "Don't bother editing. It's a waste of time." *

I have only really enjoyed a dozen or so stories which were kinky, smutty, detailed enough for me.

I am extending my stories to add a longer explicit act and a longer set up (with lots of flirting and sexual tension) and I am editing my stories.

Maybe they will sell ok but maybe they won't. I'll see how it goes.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

C.Saffron said:


> I am pretty new to this genre - short erotica and I did not know that it sold so well. I am writing a couple short erotica stories right now and I will admit that I am only writing it for the money.
> 
> I have read/heard/been told some things about writing short erotica which I am uncomfortable with too. *One thing I have been told twice now, "Don't bother editing. It's a waste of time." *
> 
> ...


Not editing is only a fraction of it... All I know is that the smut is out preforming my "real" work. It's sad, but... I think it's already really easy to get borrows, at least, so, I don't know if I want to go as far with it as I could go to make a quick buck. 

I mean, my goal in life right now is to make 5 grand a month writing. I think that would be easy, continuing with my production rate in maybe 5-6 months (maybe less). I'm just kind of irritated with the whole thing. My husband, a guy who constantly holds his money over my head, and has never shown any interest in writing or reading or my business at all over the past year, suddenly wants to write it too. It's a major face palm moment. So frustrating.

I almost want to chuck it all because of these things. But, really. I do need to make money and writing is all I'm really qualified to do.


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## Deke (May 18, 2013)

Thank you for a subject heading that made me laugh out loud. If originality and substance are what you're looking for, Erotica may not be the best genre. Granted, I openly state that I am green with envy for erotica writers. The format is simple, the stories short, you can build up titles fast, there is an active readership…so I'm really jealous. But there are only so many positions.


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## Susan in TX (Sep 17, 2014)

Deke said:


> But there are only so many positions.


Ah, but an almost endless combination of words to describe them.


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## jimbro (Jan 10, 2014)

_"...I like my Erotica to be AT LEAST 12k long and upwards to 36k. ..."_
Of course, EelKat would say that. She writes so much her productivity makes Rachel Aaron (10,000 words a day) look like a slacker. 
But, she's right. Bigger _*is*_ better.


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## Spinneyhead (Nov 4, 2010)

Kalypsō said:


> I will either: A. continue to expand my erotica empire by moving into well developed erotica, or B. Just use it as a financial foundation to write the scifi books I prefer for long term career growth.
> C. Do both. D. continue to write porn indefinitely and forget about everything else while I lock myself in a dark room writing 5000 word stories every day.


I've gone for C.

I enjoy writing erotica, though, and find the shorts to be just as much fun as the longer form eroms or adventure-with-lots-of-sex stories. Obviously, the shorts are quicker to write, have a lot less characterisation and earn as much or more than the longer form books. Which is predictable but still disappointing. Sadly for my bank balance, I can't get excited enough about any of the high selling niches to write in them.

(I've written a coming-of-age NA erom where the age difference is twenty years, he's not a jerk and she's not a clueless little doormat. I even got it a gorgeous painted cover to make it stand out. I've sold three copies  )


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2014)

Jena H said:


> You say "Problem here is the lack of story. Most [erotica] are painful to read." There's an obvious solution to that one, too.


+1


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Ha! It's painful to write too.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2014)

If you want "originality and substance," try literary erotica. That's what I used to write. Does it sell as well as the other stuff? Nope. But there's "originality and substance."

Here, try this one, and I hope it doesn't bore you. 

The Best of Best American Erotica 2008: 15th Anniversary Edition
http://www.amazon.com/Best-American-Erotica-2008-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B0012K1OG6


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

I could care less about the originality, I just wish that Twilight Shades of Fire hadn't made unhealthy relationships the norm for these kinds of popular stories.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> I'm not sure you can make a sweeping judgment about an entire genre after 8 stories.


Just as well the OP didn't offer any kind of "sweeping judgment", then?

She offered an initial impression from having read 8 that are selling well and have amassed a lot of reviews.

I've read a *lot* more than just 8, and I agree with her perspective entirely (but would have worded the points she chose to make a little less tactfully, myself).


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

[/quote]


C.Saffron said:


> I do agree with the OP to some extent
> 
> I read romance-erotica and erotica. For the past few weeks I have been reading tons of short erotica stories and I've already said that 70% of the books I've read _are not_ kinky enough or hot enough or satisfying enough for my tastes.
> 
> ...


You make some great points. I would be keen to know what books you have read where the actual act was really spicy ( what you want ) vs what you are seeing in the regular ( tool in keyhole ) stuff. There is only so many ways tools go in keyholes lol Unless you are dabbling into the stuff which is kind of borderline ( could land you in prison stuff )


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> I could care less about the originality, I just wish that Twilight Shades of Fire hadn't made unhealthy relationships the norm for these kinds of popular stories.


+1. Thats my biggest gripe with them as well.

It's one thing to read a smutty erotica short that may involve some dub con and treat it as a fantasy, but it's another thing when it becomes mainstream and kids think it's normal and what they should expect in relationships.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

C.Saffron said:


> I agree with this


I second that. That's my point exactly. But as someone else stated. Maybe there is a market for those free standing sex 7k shorts. A hoard of hungry housewives who aren't getting any at home and get off on this stuff lol


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

EelKat said:


> I actually have these same complaints.
> 
> Of course, I'm attracted to older men, so young men with rippling muscles, really doesn't do anything for me either. And I do mean older men...I'm not talking 30 year old man with 20 year old girl...I'm talking 70, 80, 90 year old men with teenager. Lolicon...try to publish THAT on Amazon. My top selling series, is not available in an ebook edition because the guy is in his 90s and the girl is 14 - Amazon, Lulu, Smashwords, EVERYBODY will not let me publish it because it's lolicon. So the Twighlight Manor series, now in it's 36th year and 234th volume is still only available via locally printed chapbooks. I can't find an online distributor that'll allow it in POD or ebook editions. (side note - I was married when I was 12, my husband is now in his 70s)
> 
> ...


Great points.

Maybe raising a discussion like this will allows some to create stories that have depth but still have lots of tools and keyhole fiddling 


Olivia Jaymes said:


> I'm not sure you can make a sweeping judgment about an entire genre after 8 stories.


Reviewing the top authors who are making money in this market. Yes I think you can get a good feel from 8 of the top selling books. They are very much the same story, different cover.

Male is always an [expletive] ( but maybe women like [expletive]s, or that's all they have ever known, or that turns them on )
Woman is always a clutz, needs a few brains cells. Especially if she likes [expletive]s who FORCE themselves on the women.
Story is usually ( intern, emailing, man saying " You are going to do XYZ whether you like it or not )

There is one thing for being passionate when two people want it, another when it borders on rape. That's not entertainment in my mind, its kind of sick and shows that humanity has steeped down pretty low if the like seeing women get treated that way. But each to their own.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Susan in TX said:


> This would be more in the New Adult ERom category--not really erotica--but try J Lynn's _Wait For You_. I read it three times straight through. H is not rich and not an entitled jerk, though he does make some 20-year-old type mistakes. A h that does not just jump in--quite the opposite. Has the expected/required HEA--it's a romance--but the path to the HEA is not entirely predictable.
> 
> I have to admit that I stay away from NA ERom for exactly the reasons you mention, but occasionally there is something new.


I will take a look, thanks


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I think pretty much everyone has misunderstood the *actual* problem.

The problem is not that there is a lack of good, story and character driven erotica, coming of age or otherwise.

The problem is not they are not visible to be found without digging.

The way the Amazon ecosystem is set up, popularity wins. Even in the "best rated" categories, the books with the most rabid fans will rush in and pile on the five stars.

Since right now the post 50 Shades readers are still looking for quick, easy, predictable reads that will deliver on what they're itching for (and lots DO want *$% alphas who force themselves on women, it's a VERY popular trope), THAT is what you will see if you pick eight popular books that are easy to find.

If you aren't willing to dig for books that break the mold, then you won't find them.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Kalypsō said:


> Not editing is only a fraction of it... All I know is that the smut is out preforming my "real" work. It's sad, but... I think it's already really easy to get borrows, at least, so, I don't know if I want to go as far with it as I could go to make a quick buck.
> 
> I mean, my goal in life right now is to make 5 grand a month writing. I think that would be easy, continuing with my production rate in maybe 5-6 months (maybe less). I'm just kind of irritated with the whole thing. My husband, a guy who constantly holds his money over my head, and has never shown any interest in writing or reading or my business at all over the past year, suddenly wants to write it too. It's a major face palm moment. So frustrating.
> 
> I almost want to chuck it all because of these things. But, really. I do need to make money and writing is all I'm really qualified to do.


Interesting. Maybe that is it then. it's just about the money.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> I think pretty much everyone has misunderstood the *actual* problem.
> 
> The problem is not that there is a lack of good, story and character driven erotica, coming of age or otherwise.
> 
> ...


Well said. I guess that's it then. weird but whatever lights a fire in their underpants and puts green in the bank lol


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

A couple of your posts are starting to be quite insulting to women and me. Lets please drop this "housewifes"  and "not getting any" talk. 
We are long past where women have to explain their reading choices or have to live through these stereotypes. 
Thank you.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

First of all, about word count, there is a really simple way to figure out roughly what the word count of a Kindle book is. Simply multiply 250 times the number of pages and you'll come up with a fairly accurate word count. That should help eliminate buying the shorter erotica stories.

Secondly, I too don't like women being lumped into 'those housewives' etc. etc. And calling a woman into question because of her reading choices in uncalled for. As a woman and an author I find it insulting.

Thirdly, what I don't understand is why anyone would read something they don't care for. I do not like sci-fi books so I don't even go to that category. I have no interest in reading them. Simply. Don't like them...stay away. 

And if the OP DOES want to read erotica then checking the number of pages should help eliminate most of the shorter stories and simply avoid them. Additionally, titles and blurbs can be quite revealing so those things also help in the buying decisions. 

One other thing anyone can do is to check out the free books and check out an author that way. Doesn't cost a cent and one can get a feel for whether or not they might like to read more from that author.

And finally, I wonder when I'm going to see a thread here on KBoards that complains about some other genre besides erotica. It seems that it's the black sheep of the writing world and is always getting a bad rap.


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## J.B. (Aug 15, 2014)

Deke said:


> Thank you for a subject heading that made me laugh out loud. If originality and substance are what you're looking for, Erotica may not be the best genre. Granted, I openly state that I am green with envy for erotica writers. The format is simple, the stories short, you can build up titles fast, there is an active readership...so I'm really jealous. But there are only so many positions.


There are only so many positions. And fortunately, thanks to reading and trying to write erotica, I'm learning that there are more than four.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

This isn't a problem specific to erotica. I agree with Texas Girl, it has a lot to do with discoverability. We haven't arrived at a time or place where people can find books specific to their tastes. Search hasn't come that far yet. Perhaps it never will. Until then, we'll have to either wade through the sea of books, or rely on blogs and email lists.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> First of all, about word count, there is a really simple way to figure out roughly what the word count of a Kindle book is. Simply multiply 250 times the number of pages and you'll come up with a fairly accurate word count. That should help eliminate buying the shorter erotica stories.
> 
> Secondly, I too don't like women being lumped into 'those housewives' etc. etc. And calling a woman into question because of her reading choices in uncalled for. As a woman and an author I find it insulting.
> 
> ...


This.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

lol, you think this is just for erotica?

Try ANY genre and tell me what you see. Romance books are all so formulaic and cliche, it's sickening. 

Turn on an episode of some crime/investigation tv show. They're all the same! New characters, slightly different plot -- same show. It's the way the world works. Are you going to sit there and keep rereading 'harry potter' for the rest of your life? Or are you going to try reading a new book, even if it's basically the same thing with some slight differences. It keeps things 'fresh' in a sense -- without making any massive leaps in originality.

Same for horror films -- slashers, all the same. Splatterpunk, same. 

Action films? Blow up some shit, beat up some people, sex with a hot girl -- call it a day.

Welcome to the industry, bub.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Frankly, I don't even imagine I'm writing for a female reader. I'm way too much of a feminist to exploit my female characters like I do in my porn if I thought I was selling it to other women. (Maybe that's whats wrong with my romance novels?) Considering I've been an exotic dancer and nude model, I have no problem exploiting men's exploitation of women for money.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> I could care less about the originality, I just wish that Twilight Shades of Fire hadn't made unhealthy relationships the norm for these kinds of popular stories.


I, too, long for the days of the lusty novel that explored the considerate, thoughtful courtship between equals... nay, *individuals* who shared a deep, spiritual understanding of each other that bloomed slowly over a sensible amount of time... and... and WTF? Really? Was that ever a trend? You want to blame recent pop culture for that?


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Frankly, I don't even imagine I'm writing for a female reader. I'm way too much of a feminist to exploit my female characters like I do in my porn if I thought I was selling it to other women. (Maybe that's whats wrong with my romance novels?) Considering I've been an exotic dancer and nude model, I have no problem exploiting men's exploitation of women for money.


From one sex positive person to another - ^^^^THIS^^^^

(So . . . . why are we wasting time in this thread, Kalypso? Shouldn't we be writing our next erotica short?)


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> From one sex positive person to another - ^^^^THIS^^^^
> 
> (So . . . . why are we wasting time in this thread, Kalypso? Shouldn't we be writing our next erotica short?)


LOL. Haha. I'm watching Mr. Selfridge on Amazon and playing ball with my daughter.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> LOL. Haha. I'm watching Mr. Selfridge on Amazon and playing ball with my daughter.


Nice!

I finished my yoga, and now I'm back to editing.


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> I think pretty much everyone has misunderstood the *actual* problem.
> 
> The problem is not that there is a lack of good, story and character driven erotica, coming of age or otherwise.
> 
> ...


*And........*



dirtiestdevil said:


> lol, you think this is just for erotica?
> 
> Try ANY genre and tell me what you see. Romance books are all so formulaic and cliche, it's sickening.
> 
> ...


*Exactly!!!!*


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Ever read Save the Cat? "Give me the same thing, but different." Multiply this by 1000 for erotica. That's the way kinks work. I supported myself by writing erotica for over a year without touching this trope. It is possible. And you know what? I basically wrote the same story 80 times. Giving people variety when only one thing turns them on is actually rather difficult, but that's the name of the game when it comes to kink specific erotica.

You've made multiple posts (some of them rather insulting) about women liking this kind of story. Many if not most popular stories in popular genres fall into the same trap, yet the FSOG trope stands out to you. I tried to explain the psychology behind this kink in another thread, but you didn't seem to want to understand it. I'm not sure if you're concerned about the state of humanity or resentful that you don't have the skill set to tap this market, but it clearly bothers you. Perhaps it would be best to avoid these stories altogether and research a genre you'll be more comfortable writing. If it makes you feel any better, many women also find these types of stories disgusting and they do nothing for their ladyparts. It's not a universal truth, and it's not the only female fantasy.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Frankly, I don't even imagine I'm writing for a female reader. I'm way too much of a feminist to exploit my female characters like I do in my porn if I thought I was selling it to other women.


You are selling it to other women. Probably mostly to other women. As a fellow feminist, I'm quite confused. It's okay to exploit women if men are the buyers, but distasteful if women want it?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> You are selling it to other women. Probably mostly to other women. As a fellow feminist, I'm quite confused. It's okay to exploit women if men are the buyers, but distasteful if women want it?


I imagine a male reader. If I imagined writing for women, I couldn't do it. Maybe it's a mental trick. But I don't really care. I'm a writer by education and trade. I need money. For me, making money is a far more feminist activity than having an existential crisis about how to be a good feminist. I write what the porn market likes, whoever they happen to be. If I imagine a woman, I couldn't write it. I'd be writing about the first female president or revolutionary scientist or something, not tag teaming a virgin... Sorry... Like I said, it's maybe just a mental trick, but imagining I'm writing to titillate male readers is what works for me.

Judge if you want. I don't really care.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Judge if you want. I don't really care.


Not judging, just genuinely confused because for me it's the total opposite. It's kind of like the smell the glove discussion in This is Spinal Tap. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of men reading my rougher stuff because I don't like the idea of arousing people who get turned on by hurting other people. Framing sex in a way that gives women 'permission' to enjoy the sexual things they feel guilty about enjoying is very empowering for me.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Well. The market is what it is. I don't have a problem with it at all. I'm surprised at the stuff that comes out of my fingers. My husband can't even hear about the general subjects of half the stuff I write about, and I've just started. Very little of it really makes me uncomfortable. Some stuff makes me a little like, eh, why is that sexy. But I've just started writing it. I think women have kind of a spiritual wound that makes them enjoy things that are dis-empowering. I'm not claiming I don't have those fantasies myself because I do. I just kind of don't feel super great about spreading it around. Meh. Again, it's really just whatever works for me and what works for you.   Stuff a dollar in my g-string baby.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I'm uncomfortable with the idea of men reading my rougher stuff because I don't like the idea of arousing people who get turned on by hurting other people.


Is kink truly specific of gender?



StraightNoChaser said:


> Framing sex in a way that gives women 'permission' to enjoy the sexual things they feel guilty about enjoying is very empowering for me.


That sounds very Victorian era to me, or at least 1950s. Do women in this day and age still feel guilty about 'sexual things'?



Kalypsō said:


> I imagine a male reader. If I imagined writing for women, I couldn't do it.


That I don't understand either. Why is being a feminist contradictory to writing erotica?


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Well. The market is what it is... I think women have kind of a spiritual wound that makes them enjoy things that are dis-empowering. I'm not claiming I don't have those fantasies myself because I do. I just kind of don't feel super great about spreading it around. Meh. Again, it's really just whatever works for me and what works for you.  Stuff a dollar in my g-string baby.


Why would you say that erotica is dis-empowering for women? Why is it that so many see it that way? Maybe you should take a look at a different perspective? Personally, I find erotica very *empowering* It was only after reading 50 Shades of Grey that I realized that I had been totally sexually repressed for years. That book set me free and gave me the courage to explore my own sexuality. And other books I have read since then have done the same thing. How is that dis-empowering? To me, it is the exact opposite.

And I've discussed this with many of my women friends and they discovered that they were also sexually repressed. Several of them began reading women's erotica and found out that it was okay to be a sexual human being and enjoy the experience. To me, that's awesome. Women becoming liberated to explore their sexual natures and not feel guilty about it. Women have been sexually repressed for hundreds of years.

Different strokes for different folks. Let's stop judging others and their motives and thoughts. We can't possibly know what goes on inside another person's head and to judge them for their reading choices, or anything else for that matter, is totally inappropriate.



> That sounds very Victorian era to me, or at least 1950s. Do women in this day and age still feel guilty about 'sexual things'?


And yes, women today still often feel guilty about their sexuality. Trust me, even in the 21st century that still goes on all the time.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Nic said:


> That sounds very Victorian era to me, or at least 1950s. Do women in this day and age still feel guilty about 'sexual things'?


I'm going to guess a big fat yes on that. (Not _all_ women, obviously, but many.)


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Nic said:


> That sounds very Victorian era to me, or at least 1950s. Do women in this day and age still feel guilty about 'sexual things'?


Women constantly still get belittled by their reading choices. In this thread even the "housewife", "not getting any" is brought up. When 50 shades hit big it was all about "mommy porn". Every time there is some "article" about the romance genre, stereotypes abound, old terms like bodice rippers are used in belittling ways. Covers are made fun off. So is it really surprising that in this environment some women are feeling they have to hide their reading? Some are made to feel guilty about their choices?

Even on a board for writers, many of whom are romance and erotica writers, I see this disdain sometimes. Its very thinly veiled.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Nic said:


> Is kink truly specific of gender?
> 
> That sounds very Victorian era to me, or at least 1950s. Do women in this day and age still feel guilty about 'sexual things'?


I don't really understand your first question, but basically my concern is arousing rapists. Arousing women who can only enjoy sex in the context of it being forced upon them is an entirely different thing, but it's the same story.

And OMG yes yes yes, to your second comment. The majority of girls, even in the wealthy first world, are still told that they are turned on by love, not pure sex. That they will only experience sexual arousal with an emotional connection. That we are 'wired' that way. When you figure out it's not personally true, you feel guilty and dirty. I have the same ideal in my sexual life as most young men, to have a the greatest variety of sex with the most guys I can find, the hotter the better. I have no context to feel good about these fantasies. But if all of the sudden the three guys I really want to jump suddenly make me... why not have a dozen orgasms while I'm there?


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

Atunah said:


> Women constantly still get belittled by their reading choices. In this thread even the "housewife", "not getting any" is brought up. When 50 shades hit big it was all about "mommy porn". Every time there is some "article" about the romance genre, stereotypes abound, old terms like bodice rippers are used in belittling ways. Covers are made fun off. So is it really surprising that in this environment some women are feeling they have to hide their reading? Some are made to feel guilty about their choices?
> 
> Even on a board for writers, many of whom are romance and erotica writers, I see this disdain sometimes. Its very thinly veiled.


Totally agree. And sometimes it isn't even thinly veiled.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Atunah said:


> Women constantly still get belittled by their reading choices. In this thread even the "housewife", "not getting any" is brought up. When 50 shades hit big it was all about "mommy porn". Every time there is some "article" about the romance genre, stereotypes abound, old terms like bodice rippers are used in belittling ways. Covers are made fun off. So is it really surprising that in this environment some women are feeling they have to hide their reading? Some are made to feel guilty about their choices?


I guess my real question there is: why would they give a flying shit about this?

The other question is more a case of being truly puzzled. I didn't think it's even possible for anyone not raised in an uber-repressed religious family to still have such major hang-ups about sex. It's not as if you could avoid raunch or porn these days.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

No. I don't think being dominated and controlled is empowering. I've been in some pretty f'ed up situations. And I've also explored a lot of things in the real world. I've explored why I personally find these things titillating because frankly, it bothered me considering the experience I've had as a woman in this world. I was listening to two women who are spiritual teachers talking about the 50 Shades of Gray phenomena (Twilight et al.) and they were talking about the thousands of years of sexual suppression, rape, etc. that women have experienced and how this residue is still mixed up in our spirits. I agree with this perspective. I'm sorry if it is not what others want to hear or it is confusing. But it makes sense to me. I'm not judging anyone for their choices or how they write or what they read. I just do what works for me... 

I'd also like to add, that now is a time when we can collectively explore this in a safe place because we have reached a level of parity. So. Good on us all.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Nic said:


> I guess my real question there is: why would they give a flying [crap] about this?
> 
> The other question is more a case of being truly puzzled. I didn't think it's even possible for anyone not raised in an uber-repressed religious family to still have such major hang-ups about sex. It's not as if you could avoid raunch or porn these days.


The fact that raunch and porn are so prevalent just makes it worse. We're not supposed to like this stuff, but we do, and it's everywhere, constantly reminding us how 'wrong' we are. I just think it's hard to explain unless you've been raised female. Sometimes you don't want to care, but you still just... do. It's etched in you psyche. Socially, it's getting better, but we're not there yet.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I don't really understand your first question, but basically my concern is arousing rapists. Arousing women who can only enjoy sex in the context of it being forced upon them is an entirely different thing, but it's the same story.


In my experience people who enjoy kinky violence come in all genders. That enjoyment isn't one-sided either. With which I mean that it is not even close to 'men always inflict violence/women always suffer under it'. There are also a lot of women who inflict violence and enjoy doing that. On the other hand, here I speak from personal experience, men can enjoy rape fantasies as well and that means visualising as the raped person, not as the rapist. So if you state that you hate to turn on 'rapists' with kinky erotica and equate that with 'men' then I think you need to rethink this. Who gets turned on by what may be much more diverse than you pose it.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> I've explored why I personally find these things titillating because frankly, it bothered me considering the experience I've had as a woman in this world. I was listening to two women who are spiritual teachers talking about the 50 Shades of Gray phenomena (Twilight et al.) and they were talking about the thousands of years of sexual suppression, rape, etc. that women have experienced and how this residue is still mixed up in our spirits. I agree with this perspective.


I also agree. But it's not just our spirits, because it isn't over yet and I'm not sure it ever will be. It's very common for people to fetishize their abuse.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I also agree. But it's not just our spirits, because it isn't over yet and I'm not sure it ever will be. It's very common for people to fetishize their abuse.


Oh, absolutely. Why does a person get turned on by being spanked? I'm not saying it's "wrong," I'm just asking "why?". I personally hope we will evolve beyond enjoying hurting each other and being hurt. That is, if the aliens don't get us first. 

Hmm... Spanked By The Aliens. I see money!

Okay. Back to Mr. Selfridge and fresh baked cookies. Cheers!


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Nic said:


> In my experience people who enjoy kinky violence come in all genders. That enjoyment isn't one-sided either. With which I mean that it is not even close to 'men always inflict violence/women always suffer under it'. There are also a lot of women who inflict violence and enjoy doing that. On the other hand, here I speak from personal experience, men can enjoy rape fantasies as well and that means visualising as the raped person, not as the rapist. So if you state that you hate to turn on 'rapists' with kinky erotica and equate that with 'men' then I think you need to rethink this. Who gets turned on by what may be much more diverse than you pose it.


I don't think that rapist=male, if that's what you're getting at. Not at all. And I don't think that women are super soft wonderful creatures that would never hurt a fly and can only be victims. But I also don't think that men always visualize rape fantasies as the victim, and I worry sometimes that abusers could be aroused by what I write and it might be the thing that causes them to act it out. It could also be the thing that keeps them from doing that. You just never know who your buyer is, or how your erotica could affect them


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh, absolutely. Why does a person get turned on by being spanked? I'm not saying it's "wrong," I'm just asking "why?". I personally hope we will evolve beyond enjoying hurting each other and being hurt. That is, if the aliens don't get us first.


Why do you write about spanking/violence if you don't know why people enjoy it?


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Why can't people just realize that everyone has different tastes and different reasons for reading? Almost every time someone mentions they hate Fifty Shades and the whole trend, it comes off as if they're superior to those who enjoy it. It's ridiculous, but no wonder people don't want to admit what they read and what they like, because, hey, someone is totally going to assume you're either stupid, desperate or whatever if you like certain type of books. There are books out there for everyone. If you're having trouble finding what you like, don't just browse bestseller lists. The books I like are never really popular, so I use Goodreads or friends' recommendations to find what I want. And yes, sometimes I buy an erotica book and, if it has a story, I just skip to the sex part because I'm not in the mood to read anything else. I like certain kinks, so I usually want to read more of that, so no, I don't really want originality. I just want the same thing I like, but in a slightly different way, because reading the same book over and over again gets boring very soon. I don't think erotica is lacking anything. The only thing lacking is the search system that would allow us to find exactly what we want to read and not just offer us a list of books that the majority prefers.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I don't think that rapist=male, if that's what you're getting at. Not at all. And I don't think that women are super soft wonderful creatures that would never hurt a fly and can only be victims. But I also don't think that men always visualize rape fantasies as the victim, and I worry sometimes that abusers could be aroused by what I write and it might be the thing that causes them to act it out. It could also be the thing that keeps them from doing that. You just never know who your buyer is, or how your erotica could affect them


I'd say there are men and women who visualise as the rapists. Just as there are men and women who visualise as the victim. If you accord such a great influence of erotica on the readers, then why write violent sex at all? I'd say there are so many kinds of non-violent and non-domineering forms of having sex out there, that it is easy to strictly keep to writing those?


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> Oh, absolutely. Why does a person get turned on by being spanked? I'm not saying it's "wrong," I'm just asking "why?". I personally hope we will evolve beyond enjoying hurting each other and being hurt.


I'm not into spanking, so I don't know. Hell, I don't even like real rape fantasies and whenever I write them it turns out to be a consensual kinky game between two lovers.

But some of the creepy things I do enjoy? That crap happened to me when I was little and I couldn't stop it. I'm just plain screwed up now. Some psychologists theorize this fetishization happens so that you can exert some kind of mental power over something so terrifying, but who knows.

Mainly, for me, these domination fantasies are fun because of the myth of uncontrollable male lust. I find that concept arousing and was a little disappointed to discover that it wasn't really true. Plus, if someone can't control themselves and just *must* have sex with you, obviously you aren't as ugly/gross/fat/old/hairy/whatever as you think you are. Pretty much all women are held to a beauty standard that we can't achieve, and this greatly affects us during sex. I'd imagine men that have these fantasies struggle with this as well. Force takes all that crap out of the equation. It's another common psychological driving factor for this type of fantasy.

And for many women, I'm sure it's just a matter of wanting to screw a super confident hot dude.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Nic said:


> I'd say there are men and women who visualise as the rapists. Just as there are men and women who visualise as the victim. If you accord such a great influence of erotica on the readers, then why write violent sex at all? I'd say there are so many kinds of non-violent and non-domineering forms of having sex out there, that it is easy to strictly keep to writing those?


Because I'm good at writing these kinks and they are very profitable, but I mainly wrote in obscure niches because this one is so saturated. And I'm just trying to be honest about what I really do, and what it can really do to people. I don't lose sleep over it or anything. And I write erotic romance now, but sometimes I consider going back to pure erotica.


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

This is like saying you're disappointed with your cake because it's too much like cake you've had before.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Jack; said:


> This is like saying you're disappointed with your cake because it's too much like cake you've had before.


It makes sense when the cake you've had before wasn't delicious or palatable.

I'm with the OP in that I disliked Fifty Shades and hated what it did to the genre. A genre which now appears to consist only of Fifty Shades plagiarisms or simplistic porn which in my opinion does better as live-action. It has become very hard to find erotica with a solid story and literary erotica in the enormous haystack of derivative stuff.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Some of the first money I ever earned with my writing was by writing niche erotica for a magazine approx. 10 years ago. It was mostly damsel in distress stuff in historical settings, highwaymen, pirates, knights, harem girls, executioners, maidens with chastity belts, lesbian girl bandits in the old west and the like. In practice most of those stories weren't any more explicit than "bodiceripper" style romances and indeed I have put up the e-book editions as historical romances, if they follow romance rules, and historical fiction or adventure fiction, if they don't, because they simply don't have enough sex for erotica. Some of them don't have any explicit sex scenes at all - yes, I managed to write erotica without sex scenes.  

However, in spite of having written short erotic fiction in the past, I didn't take part in the seven-day-erotica challenge, because the sort of erotica that is popular these days simply doesn't float my boat at all. I have zero interest in dominant alpha billionaires spanking their disobedient interns, 18-year-old virgins having sex with their step-fathers or brothers, women having sex with entire biker gangs or alpha werewolves falling for overweight women. I kind of like monster erotica, but mainly for the mausement factor. I also have no problem with anybody liking stories of this sort - everybody is entitled to their own kink - and don't judge anybody for writing them - more power to you. It simply doesn't turn me on at all, which means I can't write it either. My one attempt at writing contemporary set erotica ended with the characters spending several pages talking in a pub before finally going to his place to have sex. Plus, like the OP, Atunah and Eelkat, I prefer erotic fiction to have a plot beyond "And then they had sex".

My old steamy historical shorts and novelettes still make me decent money and occasionally I will write a new story along those lines. But I find that I simply cannot write the sort of erotica that hits more than a small niche.


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## 72263 (Sep 10, 2013)

Complaining that erotica and erotic romance focuses on sex and sexual encounters is like complaining sci-fi focuses on spaceships and futuristic settings.


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## Catnip (Sep 7, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> Mainly, for me, these domination fantasies are fun because of the myth of uncontrollable male lust. I find that concept arousing and was a little disappointed to discover that it wasn't really true. Plus, if someone can't control themselves and just *must* have sex with you, obviously you aren't as ugly/gross/fat/old/hairy/whatever as you think you are. Pretty much all women are held to a beauty standard that we can't achieve, and this greatly affects us during sex. I'd imagine men that have these fantasies struggle with this as well. Force takes all that crap out of the equation. It's another common psychological driving factor for this type of fantasy.
> 
> And for many women, I'm sure it's just a matter of wanting to screw a super confident hot dude.


I agree. These fantasies are often explained as women needing 'permission' to enjoy sex, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always that simple. I think it varies a lot between individuals.

I've never been abused, and I've never felt guilty about liking sex, but I still have those fantasies sometimes. In my case, I think it's pure laziness - getting to just lie there and enjoy it while the man does all the work  And the physical appearance thing comes into it a bit too. Most women don't fit society's crazy beauty ideal, and don't have hot men lining up at the door in real life, so I can see why fantasising about a gorgeous guy who is determined to have you could be a turn on.

So, I don't think these kinds of fantasies are always triggered by really dark psychological issues (whether those come from personal experience or just the messed up way women have been treated historically), although of course they may be.

Thinking more generally, I don't like alpha male types in real life, and don't like reading about them as they're normally written (controlling, borderline-abusive etc). But I want to try writing an alpha hero who's not an a-hole. Not sure if I can, or if there'll be an audience, but I think it's worth a go.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

Chunter said:


> Complaining that erotica and erotic romance focuses on sex and sexual encounters is like complaining sci-fi focuses on spaceships and futuristic settings.


That's not the point. The point is every story should have a basic plot and as a reader I should have some knowledge of the characters and what they want.

If I download a sample or use the look inside feature on Amazon and the author has jumped straight into an explicit act I feel like I've just watched a porn advert. Although it is an erotic story, there should be some set up, maybe a little background information, some anticipation and a good description of the sexual encounter. 
I'd expect the same from any other genre, minus the sexual encounter.

I don't know why erotica authors are given a pass to put out stories that are not edited, with no basic plot and mild titillation.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

C.Saffron said:


> If I download a sample or use the look inside feature on Amazon and the author has jumped straight into an explicit act I feel like I've just watched a porn advert. Although it is an erotic story, there should be some set up, maybe a little background information, some anticipation and a good description of the sexual encounter.


I've sometimes started a story with a sex-scene but that scene was just the jumpstart that introduced the characters and then the plot evolved from there. Usually something bad happened to the lovers. Or at least to one of them. I've also only ever used that kind of beginning for romance stories and only used it for longer stories (usually at least novella-length).

I've seen the same method used by other writers. So, such a sample can be misleading. At least when the story has a certain length.

Of course if it's only 20 pages long and starts with sex, then it will be nothing more than sex. Which in itself, theoretically, has a full story arc: it has a beginning, a middle, and a climax ;-)


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

C.Saffron said:


> That's not the point. The point is every story should have a basic plot and as a reader I should have some knowledge of the characters and what they want.





Dormouse said:


> Of course if it's only 20 pages long and starts with sex, then it will be nothing more than sex. Which in itself, theoretically, has a full story arc: it has a beginning, a middle, and a climax ;-)


These are two different problems playing into the same trumpet.

Erotica and porn are two different things, just as erotic romance and erotica are two different things. The sex without plot is porn, while what C. Saffron wants is erotica.

And some writers manage to pack a full story into a short story, because they know their way around this art form and what it demands, and some writers don't because they lack this knowledge or haven't mastered the necessary skills.

An erotica short story is a completely different thing from a short porn scene, but unfortunately both are poured into the huge vat of "erotica" on Amazon because the porn is even more scorned than the erotica. For the reader who wants erotica instead of porn there is of course a lot of dissatisfaction in reading the latter without meaning to.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

C.Saffron said:


> I don't know why erotica authors are given a pass to put out stories that are not edited, with no basic plot and mild titillation.


Ask the readers who buy it.

~~~

I enjoy writing erotica, but mine are complete stories, and they've been edited. I can't do it any other way, even under a secret pen name.



Nic said:


> An erotica short story is a completely different thing from a short porn scene, but unfortunately both are poured into the huge vat of "erotica" on Amazon because the porn is even more scorned than the erotica. For the reader who wants erotica instead of porn there is of course a lot of dissatisfaction in reading the latter without meaning to.


If people here are seriously interested in reading good erotica, rather than just complaining about not finding it, I can tell you how to find it. Just PM me. I know most of the literary erotica authors, and I'm sure they'd appreciate the business.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

Nic said:


> These are two different problems playing into the same trumpet.
> 
> Erotica and porn are two different things, just as erotic romance and erotica are two different things. The sex without plot is porn, while what C. Saffron wants is erotica.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

A book that has one long or multiple sex acts with no set up, no character introduction, no basic story is _porn_.

This is storytelling. Not a porn script. Erotica should titillate the reader while also entertain.

There should be a basic plot with a *beginning * = set up the scenery, give me a tiny bit of background info, who is the main character and what do they want

*middle * = Show me the young woman trying to flirt with or seduce her hunky next door neighbour or her step-brother or whoever. Show me some sexual tension or flirting or foreplay.

*ending* =Show me the outcome of this girls flirting or seductive moves. Describe the sexual act, what's happening, what does it feel like, what noises are they making.

I'm seeing too much, quick oral act and then "He put his huge tool inside me" or "he ****** me hard", then 1 minute later he's finished.

I understand those stories sell but I think we as writers can always improve and I personally think the audience would appreciate it, going by some of the reviews I've seen. Maybe there would be a few more reviews, if the standard improved.

*This is just my little opinion. *


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

M.G. Russell said:


> Totally agree. And sometimes it isn't even thinly veiled.


This pretty much cinches that I will not be clicking on any more erotic threads on these boards. I keep hoping for discussion, all I see is disdain and derision that some erotic writers (or are they just porn writers?) are making money writing what readers want to read.


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

C.Saffron said:


> Exactly.
> 
> A book that has one long or multiple sex acts with no set up, no character introduction, no basic story is _porn_.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind KDP/Amazon doesn't have a category for "porn". What you describe as porn and what you describe as erotica both have to sit side-by-side in the erotica category, along with longer works that vere into erotic romance territory.

That said, I have both written and read a lot of erotica/porn/smut/whatever you want to call it (in the name of research honest!) and the vast majority of it that sells well, and is charting at any given time, does have the elements you're describing, even short erotica. Yes, if you look you can find poorly written "He put his huge tool inside me" stuff, but it rarely does particularly well or reviews well and to be honest the same is true for any genre.

I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a book with "no set up, no character introduction, no basic story" doing particularly well for any length of time (by particularly well I mean < 25k or so).


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

anderson_gray said:


> This pretty much cinches that I will not be clicking on any more erotic threads on these boards. I keep hoping for discussion, all I see is disdain and derision that some erotic writers (or are they just porn writers?) are making money writing what readers want to read.


I would bet a million dollars that the writers who make excellent money writing erotica (or porn, for those who want to call it that) don't care what people think. I know I wouldn't care.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Gosh. I'd call my stories porn, but they are still fully developed short stories. (Maybe I get the "erotica" badge!) There is only a very brief period of falling action after the climax, hehe, but there is a definite "plot." I'm just used to writing "real" fiction so I call what I write porn. It isn't particularly deep. My plots are so thin I think they are silly. But it's still a story, and the silliness is kind of a selling point.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

LisaGloria said:


> Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see that happen but it would shock me if it did! And it's pretty bad when people who write erotica are some of those who do the harping!!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2014)

Molly Tomorrow said:


> Keep in mind KDP/Amazon doesn't have a category for "porn". What you describe as porn and what you describe as erotica both have to sit side-by-side in the erotica category, along with longer works that vere into erotic romance territory.
> 
> That said, I have both written and read a lot of erotica/porn/smut/whatever you want to call it (in the name of research honest!) and the vast majority of it that sells well, and is charting at any given time, does have the elements you're describing, even short erotica. Yes, if you look you can find poorly written "He put his huge tool inside me" stuff, but it rarely does particularly well or reviews well and to be honest the same is true for any genre.
> 
> I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a book with "no set up, no character introduction, no basic story" doing particularly well for any length of time (by particularly well I mean < 25k or so).


I disagree. I've been binging on these erotica stories for the past few weeks, trying to learn how they are put together and what is popular. I am quite shocked that some of the bestselling authors are doing the same thing as the inexperienced writers. Some have a basic set up yes but I feel like I don't know the characters at all (except that she's a virgin with blonde pigtails who wants to lose it to her step-father) and the sexual encounters are light on substance and description.

*I said before I like hot spicy kink and I love when I find a book that is so clear, visual and descriptive that I can see the characters as I read the book.*

*I just think short erotica is not my cup of tea. I prefer a longer story with plot, character development and hot sexual encounters. *

I know there's not a porn category but some of the books in the short erotica category read like short porn scripts.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


Problem is, everyone thinks they can successfully write erotica. Which they can't. So they are jealous of how easy it seems. Mix sex and money and you get a shit storm.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGloria said:


> Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


Well, normally, I advise two things:
1. If you don't see the thread you want to read, start it. But in this case, I kind of dislike any of these threads that sweepingly disparage a genre that many of our members write (and that applies to some of the comments in the current thread, too.)

and
B. If you dislike the topic of a thread, don't post in it--that only keeps the thread alive. If you don't want to talk about "what's wrong with erotica..." Don't.

Finally, let's continue to keep it civil (saying this because you've mostly done so--just a couple little blips).

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Claudia King (Oct 27, 2012)

My first book hit pretty much these exact same points. 
Not gonna lie, I was writing 100% for the market, but I did at least try to give my story a bit of depth. It was focused pretty much exclusively on the sexual element, and the majority of the drama was derived from the issue of trust (going both ways) in the master/slave relationship between the hero and heroine. I was aware that the story elements outside the bedroom were pretty much just a scaffold to support the sex, so I spent most of the time making the story *about* the sex, having the heroine learn all sorts of things about herself and what she wanted, grappling with the emotional turmoil of her desires, and ultimately being strengthened by her experiences and maturing into a well-balanced young woman in touch with her sexuality.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

LisaGloria said:


> Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


Amen, sister. Amen!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Jj2011 said:


> Weird complaint. Ur talking abt a very specific subgenre. The 50 shades knockoff genre. They r giving people who enjoy that stuff what they want. It's like someone who only reads romance complaining that a zombie book has too many zombies. Well that's the genre. Didn't u know that going in?


+1

The books are in the erotica category and his complaint is "too much erotica."

I'm guessing next up is complaining that historical novels have too much history in them, and too many spaceships and aliens in SF.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Olivia Jaymes said:


> I'm not sure you can make a sweeping judgment about an entire genre after 8 stories.


+1 to this, also.

That's be like saying, "Hey, I've read three Stephen King novels out of the 60 or so he's written, and the guy's overrated and actually pretty bad."

Oh, really? Which three did you read?

"Oh, that's easy. I read From a Buick 8, Dreamcatcher, and Rose Madder."

Umm... I think we've identified the problem...


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

StraightNoChaser said:


> Mainly, for me, these domination fantasies are fun because of the myth of uncontrollable male lust. I find that concept arousing and was a little disappointed to discover that it wasn't really true. Plus, if someone can't control themselves and just *must* have sex with you, obviously you aren't as ugly/gross/fat/old/hairy/whatever as you think you are. Pretty much all women are held to a beauty standard that we can't achieve, and this greatly affects us during sex. I'd imagine men that have these fantasies struggle with this as well. Force takes all that crap out of the equation. It's another common psychological driving factor for this type of fantasy.
> 
> And for many women, I'm sure it's just a matter of wanting to screw a super confident hot dude.


I haven't thought of it that way before. But damn, you're right. Uncontrollable male lust is a myth. Not that it never happens, but it's rare. I have only once ever heard a women say her boyfriend was like that.
Maybe it's true that because we constantly hear it's a real thing, these books are appealing.



StraightNoChaser said:


> The majority of girls, even in the wealthy first world, are still told that they are turned on by love, not pure sex. That they will only experience sexual arousal with an emotional connection. That we are 'wired' that way. When you figure out it's not personally true, you feel guilty and dirty.


Quoted for truth.

Another myth: men are visually turned-on. Women are turned on in some mysterious auditory/emotional/reading a book kind of way.
Uh, no. There are lots of paths to being turned on, but women are just as visual as men.

Why on earth are these old myths still floating around


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

A.A said:


> Another myth: men are visually turned-on. Women are turned on in some mysterious auditory/emotional/reading a book kind of way. Uh, no. There are lots of paths to being turned on, but women are just as visual as men.
> 
> Why on earth are these old myths still floating around


I can only speak to the male aspects of the subjects you broached.

1) "Uncontrollable" male lust is definitely a myth, but one men tend to buy into... often, as a way to manipulate women into sex. I've seen men doing this and have been shamed and amazed that there are those who buy into it.

One variation on this theme is the whole "blue b***s" myth. Shortly after I met my wife-to-be and we had started down the path of courtship and engagement, she asked me if it was true.

I asked her what she'd been told. She said every man who'd dated her insisted that it is "potentially fatal" and if she didn't "help them out," they could die. So she'd learned to at least "give them a hand." Somehow, she never brought it up to anyone (before me) who told her the truth.

Seriously.

I disabused her of that notion and was righteously indignant on her behalf that a series of men she'd known or dated before me had allowed her to believe that line of b.s. so late into her life. (She was 27 at the time.)

Is the condition real? Yes. Is it painful? Sure. Is it fatal? Not even remotely.

Where are the truth-tellers, anymore?

2) As for the myth about men being driven/attracted by the visual only.

From personal experience in my own life, I can tell you this is both true and untrue, and the extent to which it's true is a function of both age and wisdom.

When males are in their high school/college years, we do tend to be a bit more hormone driven, meaning the visual is the first thing we notice.

But I'm 48 now and there's no finger I can place on my timeline to say "this is the point where I got smarter" but, that said, the older I got, the more important things like "character, compatible personality, shared values" and the like all became more and more important to me, while "slim figure, red hair" and other physical characteristics became less and less enchanting and overpowering.

Beauty fades in all of us, male or female.

But a fundamentally honest person who isn't prone toward cheating tends to remain a fundamentally honest person who isn't prone toward cheating, and that's a form of beauty that lasts. 

But what can I say? I'm a bit old-school that way.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> I would bet a million dollars that the writers who make excellent money writing erotica (or porn, for those who want to call it that) don't care what people think. I know I wouldn't care.


I don't. 



Catnip said:


> I've never been abused, and I've never felt guilty about liking sex, but I still have those fantasies sometimes. In my case, I think it's pure laziness - getting to just lie there and enjoy it while the man does all the work  And the physical appearance thing comes into it a bit too. Most women don't fit society's crazy beauty ideal, and don't have hot men lining up at the door in real life, so I can see why fantasising about a gorgeous guy who is determined to have you could be a turn on.
> 
> So, I don't think these kinds of fantasies are always triggered by really dark psychological issues (whether those come from personal experience or just the messed up way women have been treated historically), although of course they may be.


There's a book by Nancy Friday called My Secret Garden: Women's Sexual Fantasies that came out in 1973. You can pretty much nail every single selling trope in the erotica and erotic romance sections - including the porn - from what's in that book. People tend to forget that's what erotica is all about - the fantasy. It's why vanilla doesn't sell. You can get that at home, so why pay to read about it?



A.A said:


> Another myth: men are visually turned-on. Women are turned on in some mysterious auditory/emotional/reading a book kind of way.
> Uh, no. There are lots of paths to being turned on, but women are just as visual as men.
> 
> Why on earth are these old myths still floating around


Look at the bestseller lists in erotica and romance and tell me that you honestly believe that's being driven by male readers. Ask any erotica author what percentage of their readership is male. Most of them are going to tell you it's 80/20 female/male. How many women do you know who buy porn magazines or watch hardcore porn? A few sure, but those people will tell you that their audience is 80/20 male/female. You think the people making all this money don't know who their audience is?

Guys love lesbians. Guys watch tons of lesbian porn. So why doesn't lesbian erotica sell like hotcakes on Amazon? Because 80% of the people buying erotica on Amazon are women.

Let me ask you, when was the last time you wanked to an underwear model in a magazine? Now, how would your SO respond to that same question?

It may not be PC, but neither is gravity.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Let me ask you, when was the last time you wanked to an underwear model in a magazine? Now, how would your SO respond to that same question?
> 
> It may not be PC, but neither is gravity.


I know several ladies that like Internet porn way more than their hubbies, and also have much higher libidos. This actually seems to be the norm, though that probably says more about who I hang out with than humanity in general.

PC has nothing to do with it. It's actually scientifically proven that women have a very visual sexuality. They have a physical response to almost anything remotely sexual, including things that men do not (animal sex, fruit, and some really other strange, random stuff). Women masturbate to visual pornography all the time, especially women under 35, probably because there is less of a stigma and obviously more availability, but also because they've been around sexualized images of male bodies since their sexually formative years.

When they repeat the studies from the 50s/60s that confirmed this myth today, they find that women have much stronger responses to bare male chests and other male body parts than they did back then. The theory is that stuff just wasn't around as much back in the day, so women's brains didn't have anything to respond to regularly. The images were unfamiliar and the brain had not developed its natural response. Now pics of oiled up hotties aren't rare, and modern western female brains and bodies have a stronger response. Obviously nothing has changed physiologically in that time.

It's not a myth that men are visual. It's a myth that women are not. Now, I think it could be argued that men are more likely to be exclusively visual, but women's appreciation of the other senses doesn't make them any less likely to become aroused by visual stimulation. Women are very good at creating a mental image and 'seeing' it in their head, so even written pornography can become a visual experience for them. That's why they don't want too much detailed description of the hero's face. They are painting that picture themselves.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

KelliWolfe said:


> Look at the bestseller lists in erotica and romance and tell me that you honestly believe that's being driven by male readers. Ask any erotica author what percentage of their readership is male. Most of them are going to tell you it's 80/20 female/male. How many women do you know who buy porn magazines or watch hardcore porn? A few sure, but those people will tell you that their audience is 80/20 male/female. You think the people making all this money don't know who their audience is?
> 
> Guys love lesbians. Guys watch tons of lesbian porn. So why doesn't lesbian erotica sell like hotcakes on Amazon? Because 80% of the people buying erotica on Amazon are women.
> 
> ...


Kelli, you have one post in these forums, but sure, I'll answer, and I know what you're getting at 

My post was not meant to say that men are not visually turned on. I hope it didn't come across that way. I meant the myth is that men are visually turned on while women are not. BOTH are visual.

My post didn't say that women don't get turned on by reading erotic books. Yes, the evidence overwhelming says they do. A lot of visual stimulation also goes with the covers of these books these days. They have covers of good-looking, bare-chested men. Facebook book pages are awash with photos of bare-chested men. The TV shows, Walking Dead and Sons of Anarchy have eye candy placed there especially for women.

Do women wank to underwear models? Probably not. Are they aroused by porn?: The evidence overwhelmingly says yes. The majority of porn though is not made for women. It centres on the abuse of women - so most won't get aroused by that. I'd go further and say that women like looking at women as well as men, while many men are not as keen to look at other men. So women look at both men and women. There was a recent video where they put a mini-camera at the top of a woman's bra and tested how many people looked at her cleavage during a day. The camera counted every eye contact. It wasn't meant to be testing how many women looked at her boobs, but the video was very telling. Loads of women, young and older, checked out her boobs.

Women also like to read fiction more so than men. As in, most genres. It seems natural they'd also read erotica.
Men do read a lot of non-fiction - and many would rather read it than watch a video on the same subject.



CraigInOregon said:


> I can only speak to the male aspects of the subjects you broached.
> 
> 1) "Uncontrollable" male lust is definitely a myth, but one men tend to buy into... often, as a way to manipulate women into sex. I've seen men doing this and have been shamed and amazed that there are those who buy into it.
> 
> ...


Nice post, Craig. Nothing wrong with being old school in regard to cheating  And yep, in agreement with you about the visual side of things, though some men and women don't ever get past that.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Okay. Perhaps I didn't know who I was writing for because maybe I'm naive. Maybe I'm a secret prude who's ashamed of myself. lol. (Could be. ) But I looked it up on the internet (you know, because the internet knows everything) to see if men read erotica/porn. I came across some interesting information. And I'm going to link the article. It is by an author for Literotica who wrote a long series in the non-consent category. First, he states that of subscribers to the site, women outnumber men 4:1. (Now, I've read some stuff on Literotica, it ain't sweet romance. It's pretty d*mn porny.) Second, he mentions the emails he gets in reaction to his story.

Of all the people who emailed him to tell him the story was disgusting, they were 10:1 men. 
Of all the people who emailed him to tell him the story was not extreme enough, they were all women... 

This kind of makes me laugh. Because here I am, writing the dirtiest things I can think of (which make my husband, a man who said porn actors aren't real people, uncomfortable to even mention the keywords.  ) And I'm thinking, well this is porn so it's for men. It's an eye opener. And, it really makes me want to push my own boundaries. Hmm, what nasty things can I think up next. Wow. What a naughty adventure.

http://www.xeromag.com/analysis.html

Here is a link to the article. And, I'm sure men do read erotica. But it's like 4:1.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

LisaGloria said:


> Can we have a thread where mystery writers defend their flimsy plot machinations and sci-fi writers defend their inherent misogyny and prove their credentials to write speculative anything? Because harping on erotica on this board is getting OLD.


The majority of discussion I see in this thread up to that point was about quality of writing and genre differences. Not harping on erotica. Both discussions about quality and about genre differences exist, are alive, healthy and sharply debated among mystery and sci-fi writers respectively.



KelliWolfe said:


> There's a book by Nancy Friday called My Secret Garden: Women's Sexual Fantasies that came out in 1973. You can pretty much nail every single selling trope in the erotica and erotic romance sections - including the porn - from what's in that book. People tend to forget that's what erotica is all about - the fantasy. It's why vanilla doesn't sell. You can get that at home, so why pay to read about it?
> Look at the bestseller lists in erotica and romance and tell me that you honestly believe that's being driven by male readers. Ask any erotica author what percentage of their readership is male. Most of them are going to tell you it's 80/20 female/male. How many women do you know who buy porn magazines or watch hardcore porn? A few sure, but those people will tell you that their audience is 80/20 male/female. You think the people making all this money don't know who their audience is?
> 
> Guys love lesbians. Guys watch tons of lesbian porn. So why doesn't lesbian erotica sell like hotcakes on Amazon? Because 80% of the people buying erotica on Amazon are women.
> ...


This I agree with mostly. I also think it is dependent on what society you look at, what kind of sex-ed it has, how religious it is, where women and men are professionally and in their general standing. It is not possible to talk of 'the' one and only response or behaviour. People are rather different, or so I learned during various times spent as an expat working abroad.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

Kalypsō said:


> This kind of makes me laugh. Because here I am, writing the dirtiest things I can think of (which make my husband, a man who said porn actors aren't real people, uncomfortable to even mention the keywords.  ) And I'm thinking, well this is porn so it's for men. It's an eye opener. And, it really makes me want to push my own boundaries. Hmm, what nasty things can I think up next. Wow. What a naughty adventure.


I'm not sure how well you're doing writing erotica, but I've seen you mention in posts that you'd like to do better. Perhaps better understanding your market might help 

I don't know how much of a difference it makes when 'plotting' (if we lowly smut slingers would ever do such a thing). I'm guessing that people who think they are writing for men when they are actually writing for women might be prone to make the female characters more 'bimbo' like (not sure if that would turn women off or not actually now that I think about it, but it's probably not a turn on). But most importantly, they probably don't describe their male character's physical appearance enough, thinking that men are not interested/might make them insecure. If not, the story might not give female readers what they want, which would make them less likely to seek out your other books.

So have fun figuring out a thousand different ways to describe rippling abs and fantastic forearms. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

I don't think this is about bashing the whole erotica genre.

There are some really good erotica stories out there. I would just like to see more stories with a basic set up, a little character introduction, some kind of mini plot, a hot descriptive sexual encounter, decent dialogue and some decent editing. I know there are other readers who would like to see the same thing.

I think more people would review erotica. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to improve the standard of stories in this genre.


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## Catnip (Sep 7, 2013)

I agree about the irritating myths that are out there, especially 'men are more visual'. That one has always irritated me (then again, all gender stereotypes irritate me  ) . I'm female, and I find sexy images more arousing than reading about it, in many cases. I think *humans* are just visual in general. Some people more so than others, but gender has nothing to do with it.



KelliWolfe said:


> I don't.
> There's a book by Nancy Friday called My Secret Garden: Women's Sexual Fantasies that came out in 1973. You can pretty much nail every single selling trope in the erotica and erotic romance sections - including the porn - from what's in that book. People tend to forget that's what erotica is all about - the fantasy. It's why vanilla doesn't sell. You can get that at home, so why pay to read about it?


I had that book years ago, along with the one she wrote about men's fantasies. Now I'm writing erotica, I wish I'd kept it! I might have to look for another copy.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I'm not sure how well you're doing writing erotica, but I've seen you mention in posts that you'd like to do better. Perhaps better understanding your market might help
> 
> I don't know how much of a difference it makes when 'plotting' (if we lowly smut slingers would ever do such a thing). I'm guessing that people who think they are writing for men when they are actually writing for women might be prone to make the female characters more 'bimbo' like (not sure if that would turn women off or not actually now that I think about it, but it's probably not a turn on). But most importantly, they probably don't describe their male character's physical appearance enough, thinking that men are not interested/might make them insecure. If not, the story might not give female readers what they want, which would make them less likely to seek out your other books.
> 
> So have fun figuring out a thousand different ways to describe rippling abs and fantastic forearms. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.


Loss of control - which allows the character to experience and do things that are way out of their comfort zones - is a major fantasy for many women. If you're not in control - it's being done to you rather than by you - you don't have to take responsibility. You just get to enjoy it without guilt. This is why dubcon is so popular, as well as bimbofication. "I just couldn't help myself. But damn was it hot." Hence the entire "bodice ripper" subgenre that was so popular up until a couple of decades back when it became un-PC to publish it or even admit to reading and enjoying it. Now Amazon is bursting at the seams with the exact same sort of stories and the top 100 lists in romance and erotica are full of them.

As for the minimalist description thing, I think that's more based on whether you're writing short-shorts (5-7k) or longer pieces that people expect to be more filled out. When I started publishing erotica I followed the then-current advice about not inserting too many descriptions of the male characters, but since then I've gradually moved to more normal descriptions along the same lines as romance since the audiences are very similar. Personally I don't think it makes any great difference. If people can fantasize about a different person during the physical act itself I think they're quite capable of ignoring any description I give them to insert whatever they like while reading. I do know that I've never had anyone complain that I was using too much description, while I have had people bring up descriptions in favorable reviews. But the plural of anecdote isn't data, so I'd hesitate to offer advice one way or the other on this one.



Kalypsō said:


> Of all the people who emailed him to tell him the story was disgusting, they were 10:1 men.
> Of all the people who emailed him to tell him the story was not extreme enough, they were all women...
> 
> This kind of makes me laugh. Because here I am, writing the dirtiest things I can think of (which make my husband, a man who said porn actors aren't real people, uncomfortable to even mention the keywords.  ) And I'm thinking, well this is porn so it's for men. It's an eye opener. And, it really makes me want to push my own boundaries. Hmm, what nasty things can I think up next. Wow. What a naughty adventure.
> ...


They did a study in (IIRC) Sweden a few years back that found something very similar with watching porn online. While the men who watched outnumbered women 2 or 3 to 1, a higher percentage of the women who watched preferred the really hardcore stuff. As far as sales of 5-7k shorts goes, that seems to be the pattern. The harder it is, the kinkier it is, the better is sells.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

StraightNoChaser said:


> I'm not sure how well you're doing writing erotica, but I've seen you mention in posts that you'd like to do better. Perhaps better understanding your market might help
> 
> I don't know how much of a difference it makes when 'plotting' (if we lowly smut slingers would ever do such a thing). I'm guessing that people who think they are writing for men when they are actually writing for women might be prone to make the female characters more 'bimbo' like (not sure if that would turn women off or not actually now that I think about it, but it's probably not a turn on). But most importantly, they probably don't describe their male character's physical appearance enough, thinking that men are not interested/might make them insecure. If not, the story might not give female readers what they want, which would make them less likely to seek out your other books.
> 
> So have fun figuring out a thousand different ways to describe rippling abs and fantastic forearms. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.


Actually, I'm doing great for my first week. I'm not giving numbers but I'm already outpacing my "serious" work. And I make my female characters sweet virgins and my male characters sexy alpha males. So... Maybe I'm just naive. I was writing to the "market" whomever that market may be.  
I've done some soul searching, and that article I posed last night opened my eyes. I'm fine with women reading my dirty smut.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Actually, I'm doing great for my first week. I'm not giving numbers but I'm already outpacing my "serious" work. And I make my female characters sweet virgins and my male characters sexy alpha males. So... Maybe I'm just naive. I was writing to the "market" whomever that market may be.


Shame on you for writing to the market and making money. Shame on you, indeed.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

I try to always have a well developed story line in my erotica, which has led a few reviewers to say it moved too slowly.  On the other hand, most of my reviews are positive, and marvel that it has a real story.  You can't please everyone, but as long as they keep selling and I enjoy writing them I'm happy.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

Drake said:


> I try to always have a well developed story line in my erotica, which has led a few reviewers to say it moved too slowly. On the other hand, most of my reviews are positive, and marvel that it has a real story. You can't please everyone, but as long as they keep selling and I enjoy writing them I'm happy.


How the heck do you get away with those covers? Especially the Margot ones, and even more especially the frontal nude one? Amazing. I'm too chicken to try a cover like that with all the talk about keeping them vanilla.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

M.G. Russell said:


> How the heck do you get away with those covers? Especially the Margot ones, and even more especially the frontal nude one? Amazing. I'm too chicken to try a cover like that with all the talk about keeping them vanilla.


About half of them are under the adult filter. That's not good for sales.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Update: This has been a great thread and a learning experience for myself.

I'm so used to straight up romance, thrillers and women's fiction.

Erotica and Erotica/Romance has been a new venture.

I can see now based on the experience of others that erotica doesn't require a strong story, folks just want the sex and are happy with a light story around it. It's a beast of it's own. Erotica/romance appears to be a little bit more story but again not as much.

Is this correct?


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

kalel said:


> Is this correct?


Not really.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I hope after my revelation, I can keep my work dirty enough. I think I should probably just keep imaging I'm writing for men. Can't be to gentle with that girl, now, can we.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

Just as in any other kind of fiction you have some that have more plot and some that have less. (ugh, I've read indie fantasy that is nothing but one fight scene after another. Boring.) 

My erotica always has a plot, although in the shorter pieces it may be a fairly simple one introducing the characters, the set up, and then leading to the main action. I also have beta readers and editors. I know there is unedited stuff out there (which I can't read), but I also know there are readers who appreciate well written erotica. 

Lol and I write BDSM and fetishes, so that adds a bit of creativity to each piece.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

kalel said:


> Update: This has been a great thread and a learning experience for myself.
> 
> I'm so used to straight up romance, thrillers and women's fiction.
> 
> ...


What you're referring to as erotica is actually porn. This is a big chunk of the 5-7k short market that has all the plot/characters of an XXX movie where the pizza guy gets jumped by the three sexy sorority girls when he drops off their dinner.

Erotica itself is far more than that. Sex is central to the story, but the story really is about the characters/plot. Selena Kitt does good contemporary erotica, and Kitty Thomas does very good literary and paranormal erotica.

Erotic romance is romance with erotic elements thrown in to spice it up. Most of what you see in the bestseller lists in erotica is really erotic romance. Readers expect strong characters, a good story, and a HEA/HFN ending, just like in "regular" romance. Whatever that is.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> What you're referring to as erotica is actually porn. This is a big chunk of the 5-7k short market that has all the plot/characters of an XXX movie where the pizza guy gets jumped by the three sexy sorority girls when he drops off their dinner.
> 
> Erotica itself is far more than that. Sex is central to the story, but the story really is about the characters/plot. Selena Kitt does good contemporary erotica, and Kitty Thomas does very good literary and paranormal erotica.
> 
> Erotic romance is romance with erotic elements thrown in to spice it up. Most of what you see in the bestseller lists in erotica is really erotic romance. Readers expect strong characters, a good story, and a HEA/HFN ending, just like in "regular" romance. Whatever that is.


This is simply one person's opinion of how to designate certain categories. I think every person has a different way of looking at things. I have found that there are very few things in life that are absolute. Even one and one sometimes makes three. And seeing as this thread is about erotica I'll use an example that refers to sexual activity. Normally one and one make two. However, when one man and one woman create a child then one and one make three.

We argue and fight over how we interpret words and their meanings and this is a perfect example of that. Everyone has a right to their own opinions but to present them as *A* *IS* *B*, seeming to indicate that this is the only interpretation, seems to me to indicate that there is no other possible way to see the topic under discussion.

Can we not allow others to have their own opinions and respect those opinions? It seems to me that much of the grief in this world is caused by such black and white thinking and we need to explore the grey areas a bit more.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> This is simply one person's opinion of how to designate certain categories. I think every person has a different way of looking at things. I have found that there are very few things in life that are absolute. Even one and one sometimes makes three. And seeing as this thread is about erotica I'll use an example that refers to sexual activity. Normally one and one make two. However, when one man and one woman create a child then one and one make three.
> 
> We argue and fight over how we interpret words and their meanings and this is a perfect example of that. Everyone has a right to their own opinions but to present them as *A* *IS* *B*, seeming to indicate that this is the only interpretation, seems to me to indicate that there is no other possible way to see the topic under discussion.
> 
> Can we not allow others to have their own opinions and respect those opinions? It seems to me that much of the grief in this world is caused by such black and white thinking and we need to explore the grey areas a bit more.


There have been arguments about this since before KDP existed and you're free to use whatever definition you like. What I said above gives the current *generally accepted* distinctions which are used pretty much everywhere - as a quick Google of "erotica vs erotic romance" will show. I don't particularly care what definition you use. What I do care about is what my readers expect. I clearly label my stories as erotica or erotic romance in the blurbs, because the expectations are quite different. Erotica does not require an HEA/HFN ending, although there may be one. Try publishing an erom without an HEA and watch the one-stars roll in. There doesn't have to be any relationship between the characters in erotica. That won't fly in erom.

There are no hard dividing lines. Stories can easily fall into more than one category, just like science fiction/thriller. Many of mine can be classified as romance/erotic romance/erotica. But it's helpful to have rules of thumb to go by if you're not exactly sure what's going on, and that's what I attempted to provide above.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

M.G. Russell said:


> Can we not allow others to have their own opinions and respect those opinions? It seems to me that much of the grief in this world is caused by such black and white thinking and we need to explore the grey areas a bit more.


I for one agree with her, though I don't for example agree with the various examples for 'literary erotica' given in the above thread. That is in my opinion written by authors lke Anaïs Nin or Pauline Reage, Henry Miller, Vladimir Nabokov, D.H. Lawrence, Gunter Grass or John Preston.

What astounds me is that an author of all people rejects labels, because the very act of writing is joining countless labels and definitions (which is what words are) to each other to make a larger work. Without agreeing to labels, terms and conventions human interaction can't function. It is censorship of a different kind to abolish differences between porn and erotica simply because some people sanction the former more than the latter. To mistake them for each other or adjust to a generic PC term isn't at all helpful in any direction in my opinion.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Interesting. We're on page 3 and I'm still no closer to understanding just how much plot is enough plot to 'satisfy readers' that it is EROTIC and not PORN. Or how much characterization is enough. Or what exactly it is that would satisfy readers in any regard.

Can I get a page count/word count, too? How about a list of words to use/not use to keep it erotic and not descend into porn? Any pointers on how to move from one to the other?

What kind of sales numbers are we talking about that would be a good indicator that erotica is _much_ preferrable to porn? Ranking?

Anyone?

What kinks should be written about? Anything to avoid?

Because, clearly, we need some _standards_ to make it more...something. More acceptable? More palatable? More salable?

Or is it that we should write what we like (or what we'd like to sell), just like it's encouraged in all other genres, and not worry about the distinctions that separate them?

Maybe, we should just say that we want erotica to rise to the same standards we want to hold all other endeavors of self-publishing and realize that those standards are just as individual as the readers of the works who, ultimately, are the ones who show us what does and doesn't work by purchasing.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

You said in your last post:


KelliWolfe said:


> What I said above gives the current *generally accepted* distinctions which are used pretty much everywhere - as a quick Google of "erotica vs erotic romance" will show. I don't particularly care what definition you use. What I do care about is what my readers expect. I clearly label my stories as erotica or erotic romance in the blurbs, because the expectations are quite different. Erotica does not require an HEA/HFN ending, although there may be one. Try publishing an erom without an HEA and watch the one-stars roll in. There doesn't have to be any relationship between the characters in erotica. That won't fly in erom.


So is it also generally accepted that, as you also said above:


> What you're referring to as erotica is actually porn. This is a big chunk of the 5-7k short market that has all the plot/characters of an XXX movie where the pizza guy gets jumped by the three sexy sorority girls when he drops off their dinner?


 And that statement, in my opinion, is not necessarily a *generally accepted* definition. And furthermore, it isn't particularly helpful, again, in my opinion.



> There are no hard dividing lines. Stories can easily fall into more than one category, just like science fiction/thriller. Many of mine can be classified as romance/erotic romance/erotica. But it's helpful to have rules of thumb to go by if you're not exactly sure what's going on, and that's what I attempted to provide above.


Exactly my point about grey areas. There are many of those in this life and the older I get the more I see grey and the less I see black and white. Maybe my eyesight is just dimming with age? 



> What astounds me is that an author of all people rejects labels, because the very act of writing is joining countless labels and definitions (which is what words are) to each other to make a larger work. Without agreeing to labels, terms and conventions human interaction can't function. It is censorship of a different kind to abolish differences between porn and erotica simply because some people sanction the former more than the latter. To mistake them for each other or adjust to a generic PC term isn't at all helpful in any direction in my opinion.


If this is a reference to me saying that not everything is black and white, I never said I didn't think we should have labels. I think it's safe to say that a tiny child who has just been born is a baby. I also think it's safe to say that a baby is either a boy or a girl, in most cases. Actually, in the English language, there are many types of babies, however. For example, baby chicks, goslings, colts, calves, etc. etc. So even the word baby can and does have many meanings, depending on what one is referring to.

Yes, we need labels and I wouldn't suggest that we don't. However, I do suggest that many of those labels are open to interpretation, particularly when it comes to something as nebulous as defining a particular category of writing. There is a wide spectrum and we just need to remember that.

The problem I have is when we make sweeping statements like the one above about about erotica that is between 5K and 7K words being porn. That is not a definition I would accept. It is an opinion, nothing more or less. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of the remainder of the post, but I certainly don't agree with that statement.

I just think it's time to quit pointing the finger at others who happen to write something you wouldn't or couldn't and let people get on with their own lives.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

I agree with some of what Kelli Wolfe said. Some short story erotica authors write porn, its sex pretty much all the way through. Some write a mini story with a plot and 1 or 2 sexual encounters.

I think one of the problems with short story erotica is that there are a few articles and books out there, telling people they can make a lot of money writing this erotica stuff easily. Some of the general advice handed out is that erotica stories:

do not have to be well written
do not have to include a plot
do not have to be edited 
can be trashy, smutty and unimaginative, just have lots of sex in it. 
 you don't have to worry about the reviews (cause short erotica does not get reviews or gets a few too many 1 star reviews and you can ignore them).

And that's why Amazon is flooded with some poorly written erotica.

I think if the general standard improved, short erotica authors could sell more, get more positive reviews and attract more positive attention to this genre. *(I know some erotica authors just don't care or they don't understand the criticism that is directed at their genre and most erotica authors I have now spoken to only care that people are buying their books and they are making money) *

The erotica authors who have offered me tips and advice have given me the impression that short erotica is not a serious genre to write longterm. It's a way to make some quick money, then move on to writing in a 'real' genre.

*I want to add that it is not easy to write a good erotica book with a plot and hot sexual encounters, in my opinion.
*


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

In general, people usually classify erotica as what they prefer, and porn as what they don't prefer.

That's why some Bible-thumper will put it all in the porn category, regardless of how much story is wrapped around it.

It's a sliding scale, and I don't label my writing either way, leaving it up to the readers to make that determination for themselves.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> I just think it's time to quit pointing the finger at others who happen to write something you wouldn't or couldn't and let people get on with their own lives.


Yeah, but there will *ALWAYS* be people pointing fingers. There will always be opinions. There will always be people saying it needs to be this way or that way, especially at a writers' board.

Erotica authors who are confident in their choices, and in what they write, don't wait for people to stop pointing fingers so that they get on with their lives. They get on with their lives regardless.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Nic said:


> What astounds me is that an author of all people rejects labels, because the very act of writing is joining countless labels and definitions (which is what words are) to each other to make a larger work. Without agreeing to labels, terms and conventions human interaction can't function. It is censorship of a different kind to abolish differences between porn and erotica simply because some people sanction the former more than the latter. To mistake them for each other or adjust to a generic PC term isn't at all helpful in any direction in my opinion.


But for us to 'mistake them for each other' means that there has to be an absolute difference between them, and there simply isn't.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/470645/pornography



> pornography, representation of sexual behaviour in books, pictures, statues, motion pictures, and other media that is intended to cause sexual excitement. The distinction between pornography (illicit and condemned material) and erotica (which is broadly tolerated) is largely subjective and reflects changing community standards.
> 
> ...
> 
> Because the very definition of pornography is subjective, a history of pornography is nearly impossible to conceive; imagery that might be considered erotic or even religious in one society may be condemned as pornographic in another. Thus, European travelers to India in the 19th century were appalled by what they considered pornographic representations of sexual contact and intercourse on Hindu temples such as those of Khajuraho (see photograph); most modern observers would probably react differently. Many contemporary Muslim societies likewise apply the label "pornography" to many motion pictures and television programs that are unobjectionable in Western societies. To adapt a cliché, pornography is very much in the eye of the beholder.


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## Spinneyhead (Nov 4, 2010)

swolf said:


> In general, people usually classify erotica as what they prefer, and porn as what they don't prefer.
> 
> That's why some Bible-thumper will put it all in the porn category, regardless of how much story is wrapped around it.
> 
> It's a sliding scale, and I don't label my writing either way, leaving it up to the readers to make that determination for themselves.


This ^^^

Some of my erotica shorts are minimal plot, straight to the humping, others are simple stories designed to show you what the characters are like (usually through banter and general conversation)- then humping. My longer stories are straightforward romances with sex or pulp pastiche adventures spiced up with lots of sex and multiple partners. They'd all be porn to a narrow-minded person, some of them would be porn to some people and there'll be some who think of them all as erotica. If I can just get enough people from the last two categories to find them and buy them, I'll be happy.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

swolf said:


> In general, people usually classify erotica as what they prefer, and porn as what they don't prefer.
> 
> That's why some Bible-thumper will put it all in the porn category, regardless of how much story is wrapped around it.
> 
> It's a sliding scale, and I don't label my writing either way, leaving it up to the readers to make that determination for themselves.


I don't remember who said it, but I love the quote - "Erotica is just porn with its pinky finger up."

If people want to call my stuff porn, I couldn't care less.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

C.Saffron said:


> I agree with some of what Kelli Wolfe said. Some short story erotica authors write porn, its sex pretty much all the way through. Some write a mini story with a plot and 1 or 2 sexual encounters.
> 
> I think one of the problems with short story erotica is that there are a few articles and books out there, telling people they can make a lot of money writing this erotica stuff easily. Some of the general advice handed out is that erotica stories:
> 
> ...


If that's the advice you're getting from erotica authors, you need to broaden the scope of your relationships.

Talk to Selena Kitt or Carl East. They've been successful at this a long time, and they would never hand out that kind of advice.



C.Saffron said:


> And that's why Amazon is flooded with some poorly written erotica.


Amazon is flooded with poorly written books in every genre. People hear there's money to be made and give it a shot.



C.Saffron said:


> I think if the general standard improved, short erotica authors could sell more, get more positive reviews and attract more positive attention to this genre. *(I know some erotica authors just don't care or they don't understand the criticism that is directed at their genre and most erotica authors I have now spoken to only care that people are buying their books and they are making money) *
> 
> The erotica authors who have offered me tips and advice have given me the impression that short erotica is not a serious genre to write longterm. It's a way to make some quick money, then move on to writing in a 'real' genre.
> 
> ...


The good erotica writers don't see it as criticism because it doesn't apply to them. They see the flood of poor quality as an opportunity to separate themselves from all that. And the way they do that is by putting out quality work and building a brand around their name. So that readers will come looking for them instead of trying to wade through it all.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> I don't remember who said it, but I love the quote - "Erotica is just porn with its pinky finger up."


Up where?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2014)

swolf said:


> If that's the advice you're getting from erotica authors, you need to broaden the scope of your relationships.
> 
> Talk to Selena Kitt or Carl East. They've been successful at this a long time, and they would never hand out that kind of advice.
> 
> ...


I have emailed Selena Kitt and another bestselling author and they have both given me one piece of good advice. And there are a couple how to write erotica books/articles floating around which contain some or all of that advice.

I did not say there was *only* poorly written books in erotica. There's great stories, average stories and poorly written stories in every genre.

i just wish I did not have to wade through so many poorly written stories.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

swolf, so very well said. I agree with Jolie in not caring if people want to call my stuff erotica, porn, or smut. It's writing to titillate. That's pretty much the goal. 

And I agree there are tons of bad books in every genre.

C.Saffron, I'd probably advise you to do what I do for each and every book on Amazon that I consider purchasing, regardless of genre. Look at the blurb, then download the sample. I do that even for traditionally published bestselling authors. The sample usually tells me the quality of the writing and whether or not I'll enjoy it. Remember something can be beautifully written but still boring as hell.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

Drew Smith said:


> Well the title of the thread is "Erotica lacking originality and substance?" so it kinda seems to be focused on the genre in general.


Exactly! And like I said in an earlier post, I have yet to see any threads on these boards that complain about the poorly written books in other genres.

I just think it's interesting that there is such a fervor to pick erotica apart and make it better!


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> Exactly! And like I said in an earlier post, I have yet to see any threads on these boards that complain about the poorly written books in other genres.
> 
> I just think it's interesting that there is such a fervor to pick erotica apart and make it better!


I was guessing that we were all adults on here and this is a forum with both writers and readers who can discuss a topic or book genre without getting personal and belitting a particular author.
I see plenty negative comments about E.L. James and her books, but that's ok right?

As I already said, I don't see what's wrong with talking about improving the standard of books in any genre. I don't read thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, horror or crime so I would not be able to contribute to those threads but anyone on here can start a thread on one of these genres and people will comment.

I understand that some people make a living writing erotica on here and some writers work hard to put out good stories but there are a lot of poorly written, plotless stories with quickie boring sexual encounters and terrible dialogue. As the OP said, there is a lack of originality and substance in *some* erotica and erotica romance books.

There is also some good erotic romance and erotic stories out there.

I have written romance and it remains unpublished but has been beta read and reviewed by a couple authors. I know I need to improve those stories before I put them out for sale and ask people to pay money for them.

There are authors and how to books in the erotica genre that have admitted that they put out below average and unedited work to make quick money.


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## o.gasim (Oct 5, 2014)

The whole reason I started writing was because I read a book series I thought was so bad, so unoriginal, and so lacking in substance I thought I could do it better. It was from a mainstream genre widely praised as great fiction.

Moral to the story: I found out real quick that it's easy to have an alligator mouth, but be sure it's not backed by a hummingbird a$$.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

C.Saffron said:


> I was guessing that we were all adults on here and this is a forum with both writers and readers who can discuss a topic or book genre without getting personal and belitting a particular author.
> I see plenty negative comments about E.L. James and her books, but that's ok right?


And I believe that is totally unjustified. If she has satisfied so many people with her books who are we to judge her abilities and writing? That's such a big part of the problem as I see it...finding fault with others. I don't agree with it under any circumstances because it is all just our opinions. I was brought up to believe that if I couldn't say something nice about a person and/or their life then I should *shut up*. And I think it would be a lot better world if more people did that.

I am *not* suggesting that we should not discuss genres/writing styles etc. etc. What I *am* suggesting is that we don't need to put other people down to have a productive discussion. The whole tone of this thread started off with a complaint about erotica and even the title of the thread was, in my opinion, a put-down to the genre. The thread doesn't seem to have improved much.



> As I already said, I don't see what's wrong with talking about improving the standard of books in any genre. I don't read thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, horror or crime so I would not be able to contribute to those threads but anyone on here can start a thread on one of these genres and people will comment.


And as I just said above, neither do I. I just don't think it has to be done in a way that disparages others. And I realize people *could* discuss improving thrillers, mysteries, etc. etc. But do they? I've never seen a thread like that. Have you?



> I understand that some people make a living writing erotica on here and some writers work hard to put out good stories but there are a lot of poorly written, plotless stories with quickie boring sexual encounters and terrible dialogue. As the OP said, there is a lack of originality and substance in *some* erotica and erotica romance books.


And what about romance novels? Some of the ones I have read are not very well plotted. And some have grammar mistakes and some are poorly written. I can't comment on other fiction because I don't read much of it. However, I wonder how many thrillers and horror books are full of not much else besides blood and gore? Why isn't that equally as offensive as poorly written erotica?

And what about all the books that have been 'written', and I use that word loosely, about medical conditions by non-professionals that probably should not be on the market? Some of those books could cause a person health problems but I don't ever hear anyone on KBoards bemoaning that fact. I have not seen a thread on here that discusses that issue. And it could cause people to have health issues. To me, that is more important than writing fiction with little or no plot.

Another thing, and I know quite a bit about this. In my previous life I was and to some extent still am a cookbook author. I learned my recipe writing skills from an expert and know how to write a recipe that is accurate and that will make a good dish. I know when a recipe is not accurate, simply because after over 30 years of writing recipes I can tell if something is amiss with them.

When I first started to write books for Kindle I wrote cookbooks. And I took several courses that told me I could just go get someone to gather up recipes from the Internet and make a cookbook with them. Well, that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. If I am going to write a recipe it will darn well be accurate and useable. I don't want people wasting their time, money and good ingredients making something that might or might not turn out to be good.

There are literally hundreds of cookbooks on Kindle that are poorly written and that have many inaccuracies in them. I can point out several without much difficulty. Does that mean that all the cookbooks on Kindle are like that? No, it doesn't. But if you're buying cookbooks off Kindle you really do need to take a look inside the book and see at least one recipe to see if it might be an okay book.

I don't see any threads on KBoards that complain about that. Wonder why not? At least when someone writes erotica without much plot it doesn't use up a person's time, energy, money and food.



> There is also some good erotic romance and erotic stories out there.


Yup, but the only time we hear that is in a thread like this which is mainly complaining about the genre and usually only after someone else who doesn't happen to be complaining points that out.



> I have written romance and it remains unpublished but has been beta read and reviewed by a couple authors. I know I need to improve those stories before I put them out for sale and ask people to pay money for them.


You are to be commended. Now, that's only my opinion, of course. 



> There are authors and how to books in the erotica genre that have admitted that they put out below average and unedited work to make quick money.


Yes there are. However, as I said, there are also authors out there offering courses on how to make a killing with cookbooks and/or health books and those are, in most cases, equally as unprofessional, in my opinion. As I said earlier, at least erotica authors aren't dealing with a person's health, pocketbook and foodstuff. So again, why don't we see threads about the authors who offer these courses? Why just the erotica authors?

And yes, I know I could start a thread about any or all or them. However, I see little point in that. I come here to learn and to support others and I see little benefit to anyone in pointing my finger at others when I myself still have so much to I need to improve about myself.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

C.Saffron said:


> I was guessing that we were all adults on here and this is a forum with both writers and readers who can discuss a topic or book genre without getting personal and belitting a particular author.
> I see plenty negative comments about E.L. James and her books, but that's ok right?
> 
> As I already said, I don't see what's wrong with talking about improving the standard of books in any genre. I don't read thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, horror or crime so I would not be able to contribute to those threads but anyone on here can start a thread on one of these genres and people will comment.
> ...


I understand your opinion, and you've made it perfectly clear. But now, I'm wondering what you're seeking in this thread.

Every erotica author will approach this business in their own way, whether you agree with a particular approach or not. Also, just because you may disagree with a particular approach, doesn't mean that particular approach is necessarily wrong. It just means you don't agree with it. And that's fine. You're entitled to disagree with it if you choose.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> I understand your opinion, and you've made it perfectly clear. But now, I'm wondering what you're seeking in this thread.
> 
> Every erotica author will approach this business in their own way, whether you agree with a particular approach or not. Also, just because you may disagree with a particular approach, doesn't mean that particular approach is necessarily wrong. It just means you don't agree with it. And that's fine. You're entitled to disagree with it if you choose.


I think I've made that clear in my posts, why don't you ask the OP?


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> And I believe that is totally unjustified. If she has satisfied so many people with her books who are we to judge her abilities and writing? That's such a big part of the problem as I see it...finding fault with others. I don't agree with it under any circumstances because it is all just our opinions. I was brought up to believe that if I couldn't say something nice about a person and/or their life then I should *shut up*. And I think it would be a lot better world if more people did that.
> 
> I am *not* suggesting that we should not discuss genres/writing styles etc. etc. What I *am* suggesting is that we don't need to put other people down to have a productive discussion. The whole tone of this thread started off with a complaint about erotica and even the title of the thread was, in my opinion, a put-down to the genre. The thread doesn't seem to have improved much.
> 
> ...


I agree with your responses. As you can see I'm quite new to this forum (as a member) but I've been lurking here a while so I cannot comment on why there are no threads on other genres. Erotica gets a bad rap because *some* of it is poorly written and right now there seems to be a general conversation about how easy it is to get rich quick writing it.

*
As I said, I do not think good erotica is easy to write.* For example I've read some Selena Kitt books and I personally think she writes good mini stories, I feel like I know her characters within a few words, she builds anticipation and then she adds hot sexual encounters (sometimes red hot steamy sexual encounters)and _I don't know how she does it. _


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## Catnip (Sep 7, 2013)

I don't mind if people call me a pornographer, so long as I get paid


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

I was writing fanfic long before I published anything professionally. There's a tag you can use if your story is mainly erotica: PWP, which can either stand for Plot, what plot?  Or Porn without plot. Mind you, most of mine a plot still tries to sneak its way in, LOL!

I read erotica in the M/M genre, some of it is really good, others are really bad and some are somewhere in the middle. Not every story is going to be perfect for every reader, no matter what genre it's in. I write the stories I would like to read and I hope that someone out there shares that same taste. It certainly seems true of my free fanfic, as I get lots of reads and reviews, but the paid for stuff is having a struggle.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Not to be the guy that says "I understand what you're saying, but I wrote..."

I wrote a dark erotic novel that came out in April.  It's got an actual plot, I'm pretty sure folks like the sex scenes just fine, and it subverts the "millionaire all-around mr. wonderful + the young ingenue" trope.  It also has (fair warning) some questionable consent and a plot turn about 85% of the way through that's somewhere along the lines of "if Stephen King wrote an erotic novel" dark.

It's not for everyone, but it IS something in the genre the OP appears to be finding lacking.

Oh-- it's called Sapphire Blue.  I published it under G Doucette so it's not listed in the signature here.  (Plus I ran out of space for books in the signature.)  

So now I'm the guy who said "I understand what you're saying, but I wrote..."  I will now put on the cone of shame.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

C.Saffron said:


> I think I've made that clear in my posts, why don't you ask the OP?


I don't need to ask the OP. 

~~~

1. Good erotica is hard to write.

2. There's some poorly written erotica out there.

3. Some erotica authors are just doing it for the money.

~~~

So . . . would you like a discussion on how to write good erotica? (There's lots of erotica authors here who could help with that.) Otherwise, again, I'm not sure what you're seeking.

In any case, whatever it is, I hope you're finding it.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

M.G. Russell said:


> I am *not* suggesting that we should not discuss genres/writing styles etc. etc. What I *am* suggesting is that we don't need to put other people down to have a productive discussion. The whole tone of this thread started off with a complaint about erotica and even the title of the thread was, in my opinion, a put-down to the genre. The thread doesn't seem to have improved much.


I agree.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Frankly I think some people went way off the deep end and whipped out their +1 Cloaks of Righteous Indignation for no good reason early on in the thread. Even the OP didn't bash the genre or the people writing it, but just expressed frustration that it's difficult to find the good stories for all of the garbage currently flooding the market.

While others have (rightfully) pointed out there are bad books in every genre, the erotica market is *vastly* different. Not many people are going to take the time and effort to write a stack of 120k word epic fantasy novels hoping to get rich quick, and you are certainly not going to publish 20 science fiction shorts of 5-12k and make $10,000 a month. You're not going to do it in horror. You're not going to do it in thrillers. You're not even going to do it in romance unless you win the serial lottery. But you absolutely can do it in erotica. There are people with just a handful of shorts sitting on the bestseller list bringing in tens of thousands of dollars a month. What other genre can you do that with?

Given that it's far easier to produce a single 5-12k short than it is a 50k+ novel and you can sell that short for $2.99 when short novels in other genres are priced at $2.99 or less, naturally it's going to attract a horde of get-rich-quick types who flood the market hoping to strike the gold vein. You can find ads like this https://www.odesk.com/o/jobs/job/_~011ea8115869b83be9/ all over the internet.


> You will be required to ghost-write 4 parts of billionaire's romance serial, each about 7000 - 10000 words each. I have the story and the outline and the characters and it's up to you to write it. Each part needs to have an enticing cliffhanger, and needs to be written quickly. The stories should be smouldering, well written, romantic - nothing too graphic, but enough male/female love scenes to keep the reader entertained.


Commissioned 30-40k words for a flat $120. And someone accepted it. People are paying $20 for someone else to crank out a short, throwing on a $5 stock photo, and building up entire catalogs of this stuff.

So it's a valid problem. It's not author bashing and it's not genre bashing to point out that there is a legitimate problem with the short erotica market being flooded by people hoping to cash in on the gravy train by publishing (not necessarily *writing* as I pointed out above) a large number of stories as quickly and cheaply as possible, and this leads directly to the complaint that the OP expressed.

Couple that with Amazon's insane erotica policies which tend to drive away the "real" erotica writers once they've had half their catalog blocked by Carlos F or one of his bunch, paid reviewers who deliberately muddy the waters, and you've got the makings of a big old mess for the readers.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> So it's a valid problem. It's not author bashing and it's not genre bashing to point out that there is a legitimate problem with the short erotica market being flooded by people hoping to cash in on the gravy train by publishing (not necessarily *writing* as I pointed out above) a large number of stories as quickly and cheaply as possible, and this leads directly to the complaint that the OP expressed.
> 
> Couple that with Amazon's insane erotica policies which tend to drive away the "real" erotica writers once they've had half their catalog blocked by Carlos F or one of his bunch, paid reviewers who deliberately muddy the waters, and you've got the makings of a big old mess for the readers.


I consider literary erotica "good" erotica. However, literary erotica rarely sells well. So why are people spending money on the other stuff?

Authors can get on a writers' board and complain about what's out there, but any author who wants to make money is going to pay attention to what's selling. Any author who wants to make money is driven by the readers, not by complaints by authors on a writers' board.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> I consider literary erotica "good" erotica. However, literary erotica rarely sells well. So why are people spending money on the other stuff?


I consider literary fiction "good" fiction. However literary fiction rarely sells well. So why are people spending money on the other stuff?

Because it's what they like, and that's their business. If they want to read porn on their Kindles while they eat at McDonald's instead of reading Anais Nin at the fashionable boutique place next door, I don't care. I'll probably be at the table next to theirs reading a romance novel.

They read it because it's what they like. They eat there because that's what they like.

There's a world of difference between matters of taste and internet marketers - NOT writers - deliberately flooding the erotica field with poor-quality crap in an effort to cash in fast.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

So... There are a lot internet marketers in every genre, including romance and nonfiction... I don't think there are many of them around here. I don't see any. This is a WRITERS' forum. Internet marketers wouldn't come here because of all the fire and pitchforks, and because they wouldn't get anything out of being involved in this community. So... Why bother even mentioning it. All erotica authors on kboards are "real" erotica authors. If they've posted more than twice, you can be pretty sure you are talking to a "real" author. I don't understand the need to go off about internet marketers on a writers' forum. There is nothing anyone can do about it, and you are only talking down to your fellow authors who happen to write in that genre. 

If its so darn easy and such easy money, go try write some and make all that easy money. Stop complaining about it.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> So... There are a lot internet marketers in every genre, including romance and nonfiction... I don't think there are many of them around here. I don't see any. This is a WRITERS' forum. Internet marketers wouldn't come here because of all the fire and pitchforks, and because they wouldn't get anything out of being involved in this community. So... Why bother even mentioning it.


Maybe because of its relevance to the OP and title of the topic?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I suggest they go read some diet books...


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> So... There are a lot internet marketers in every genre, including romance and nonfiction... I don't think there are many of them around here. I don't see any. This is a WRITERS' forum. Internet marketers wouldn't come here because of all the fire and pitchforks, and because they wouldn't get anything out of being involved in this community. So... Why bother even mentioning it. All erotica authors on kboards are "real" erotica authors. If they've posted more than twice, you can be pretty sure you are talking to a "real" author. I don't understand the need to go off about internet marketers on a writers' forum. There is nothing anyone can do about it, and you are only talking down to your fellow authors who happen to write in that genre.
> 
> If its so darn easy and such easy money, go try write some and make all that easy money. Stop complaining about it.


+1 (Thank you, Kalypso.)


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> I consider literary fiction "good" fiction. However literary fiction rarely sells well. So why are people spending money on the other stuff?


I said *literary erotica*. Not literary fiction. (Although, non-erotic literary fiction often doesn't sell well, either.)

There is such a genre called *literary erotica*. if you're going to quote me, please don't change my sentences.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

I wasn't quoting you. I was attempting to make a point.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

The problem is that "internet marketers" pay exclusive attention to what sells. "Real writers of substance" do not. So if internet marketers are overtaking a genre it's because they've done their due diligence and studied the market. Guess what, that crap sells. Whose fault is that? The readers? With all the talk about formula writing not respecting readers, I kind of have to laugh. 

"Real writers of substance" have a tendency to follow their muses. While the muses might be demigods, they know crap about marketing. Personally, I've been involved in the internet marketing space, but I also paid a tier one university tens of thousands of dollars to force me to write essays about Beowulf. FYI: Grendel's mother looked nothing like Angelina Jolie. Have I earned my "real writer of substance" badge? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares. 

After trying to follow my muse, I've given up. Whatever genre I can tap and write to that market is what I'm planning to focus on from now until I can move out of the ghetto and pay my student loans for all that substantive learning.


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## StraightNoChaser (Dec 29, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Frankly I think some people went way off the deep end and whipped out their +1 Cloaks of Righteous Indignation for no good reason early on in the thread. Even the OP didn't bash the genre or the people writing it, but just expressed frustration that it's difficult to find the good stories for all of the garbage currently flooding the market.


You must have missed the part where the OP, once again, insulted women who read billionaire erotica by calling them things like bored housewives who aren't getting any. The name calling was edited, I think by the OP, not the mods. This isn't the first time he's aired his grievances about some women's sexual preferences and reading habits, and passed judgement on erotica/erotic romance. I'm not trying to call him out, but honestly I found it personally insulting and insulting to other authors on this board, as well as my readers.

It's just difficult to watch misinformation spread and stay silent. That's what inspired you to start posting instead of lurking, right?

Some erotica lacks substance. Some does not. Some authors pour their heart and souls into their books, and barely sell. Some barely put any effort in at all, or use a ghostwriter, and shoot up the charts. The market decides what is good, what deserves to be at the top of the charts. _Not authors_.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kalypso, I totally understand that viewpoint. I started publishing erotica in 2011 - just had my 3 year anniversary of my first story going up. Since then I've dipped into longer eroms and I really enjoy writing those. Unfortunately they don't sell nearly as well as my shorter, more hardcore stories, so if it's a choice between a 7-10k word PI and a 14k+ erom which will take twice as long to write and bring in far less money, I have to go with the PI. This is a business for me, not just a hobby, and I'm in it for the long term. I've also written two steampunk novels that in three years haven't made back anywhere near what I spent on the covers and editing. So yeah, I really do understand.

Please don't think I'm that I'm knocking the idea of writing to the market or cranking out a story a week. I don't have any problem with that at all, and I've been having a lot of fun lurking on the 7 Day Erotica Challenge thread. It's great to see people doing well and having fun at the same time. And with that many more people who actually care about what they're doing getting into the game maybe it will help solve the OPs problem as well. The short erotica market is essentially a bottomless pit, so competition is a *good* thing.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Honestly, I have to try pretty hard to simplify my writing and write to the lowest common denominator. If I made my work even trashier, I'd probably sell better. That's my present challenge. Heck, I want money. I've got student loan debt, a three year old, and a borderline poverty level quality of life. Why _NOT_ write for money. Please... I'm sick of paying hundreds of dollars a month for editors and waiting with bated breath so I can watch a one star review kill my sales, sending all that time and money down the toilet. In erotica, no one cares. (Sorry, it's true.) 
If only non writers write for money, what does that say about who makes money in this industry?

Eventually, I'll go back to female centric science fiction with strong plots and well developed, independent heroines. Maybe a handful of people will buy it...


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

StraightNoChaser said:



> Some erotica lacks substance. Some does not. Some authors pour their heart and souls into their books, and barely sell. Some barely put any effort in at all, or use a ghostwriter, and shoot up the charts. The market decides what is good, what deserves to be at the top of the charts. _Not authors_.


I'm not arguing that, and I'm not worried about who is at the top of the charts. Getting there is as much about getting lucky as it is good. I spent several months in the top 100 erotica author list when tons of people I knew who were better erotica writers just didn't get there. I fully intend to be there again, too, while other more deserving souls cool their heels in the 101+ ranks. I promise to be gracious about it, though. 

So the top of the charts doesn't concern me. It's the bottom of the charts. Other than a couple of rather unique instances I'm aware of, the internet marketers don't get to the top of the charts. This is because they're producing masses of *deliberately* low quality work with the intent to make money on volume - a couple of sales per month per title but with many hundreds of titles up across many pen names. This drives the overall quality of the genre down, reduces reader discoverability of the better quality work, and leads to reader complaints about how the short erotica market is nothing but a sea of crap. Which addresses the OPs comments, his apparent misogyny aside, and which I've personally experienced over the course of the last three years as an erotica writer who spends a great deal of time studying the market and watching the new releases.



Kalypsō said:


> In erotica, no one cares. (Sorry, it's true.)
> If only non writers write for money, what does that say about who makes money in this industry?
> 
> Eventually, I'll go back to female centric science fiction with strong plots and well developed, independent heroines. Maybe a handful of people will buy it...


I'd qualify that as "In _short_ erotica, no one cares." I 100% agree with that, and I don't pay for an editor for my shorts. I do edit myself very carefully and I have every warning in Word turned on to catch as much as possible, but it would be a serious waste of money to pay someone to edit those shorts. I wouldn't recommend that anyone else pay for professional editing on their erotica shorts either.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> I 100% agree with that, and I don't pay for an editor for my shorts. I do edit myself very carefully and I have every warning in Word turned on to catch as much as possible, but it would be a serious waste of money to pay someone to edit those shorts. I wouldn't recommend that anyone else pay for professional editing on their erotica shorts either.


I edit my stories personally. I just do a text to speech pass doing line editing, copy editing, and proofreading in one go. I think they are really clean comparatively...


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2014)

Actually, writing raunchy, formulaic erotic short stories - the stuff that sells *really well* - is hard for me. I'm learning how to do it. However, my first one went live yesterday, and I've received 2 sales and 3 borrows so far. So that's good enough for me to continue with this, particularly because I'm not spending money to produce these like I do with my work under Jolie du Pre.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> Actually, writing raunchy, formulaic erotic short stories - the stuff that sells *really well* - is hard for me. I'm learning how to do it. However, my first one went live yesterday, and I've received 2 sales and 3 borrows so far. So that's good enough for me to continue with this, particularly because I'm not spending money to produce these like I do with my work under Jolie du Pre.


As long as I imagine I'm writing for men, I can write that stuff. If I'm writing for women I want to make my heroine find a cure for cancer. Even if more women read this stuff than men, that's what works for me.


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## Miss Bee (Sep 8, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Honestly, I have to try pretty hard to simplify my writing and write to the lowest common denominator. If I made my work even trashier, I'd probably sell better.


I suffer from the same problem. My erotic does have plot and well thought out dialogue, but I have one title that has sold fewer than any of my others -- and it has two 5 star ratings. I don't think a lot of erotica writers want plot. I probably should have tamed my stuff down a bit further and put it under Romance, but it's too short.

I am working on a Romance novel with ideas for several more, including a serial Romance, but I do wish sometimes I could lower my standards a bit in the interest of selling more books. (Never thought I'd write _that_ sentence!)


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## Mr. Sparkle (Oct 8, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Honestly, I have to try pretty hard to simplify my writing and write to the lowest common denominator. If I made my work even trashier, I'd probably sell better. That's my present challenge. Heck, I want money. I've got student loan debt, a three year old, and a borderline poverty level quality of life. Why _NOT_ write for money. Please... I'm sick of paying hundreds of dollars a month for editors and waiting with bated breath so I can watch a one star review kill my sales, sending all that time and money down the toilet. In erotica, no one cares. (Sorry, it's true.)
> If only non writers write for money, what does that say about who makes money in this industry?
> 
> Eventually, I'll go back to female centric science fiction with strong plots and well developed, independent heroines. Maybe a handful of people will buy it...


This +1,000,000.

I've forestalled work on two different historical novels because of the research intensity necessary for the projects. However, I come from a B.A. / A.B. in an English/History/Anthro related field, so even while writing contemporary stories I end up doing way too much research. Because I think writers deserve to know the difference between a 1770s robe a l'anglaise and the kind of stays that would go with it versus a corset or a "paire of bodyes." For those not clothing inclined, when I write historical battle scenes, I need to know when the printing press had been exported or who could afford nice buttons for their uniforms or the rocky road to production of the B-17 bomber and how gust locks work. The risk and probable ROI on most well-researched stories is not as good as it is for erotica, and I don't have enough of a backlist to keep off of disability if I don't start doing something drastically different.

This doesn't mean I don't focus intently on delivering good smut.  It just means it's not steampunk or military smut. LOL.


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## JessieSnow (Jul 25, 2014)

The erotica I've published so far has a story. A slowly unveiled mystery. And it's very, very explicit. But then... it also took me ten weeks to write the 23k.


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## Jay Walken (Feb 7, 2013)

I have to confess that, mainly for lack of time, I have not read much erotica in recent years, except for a few random shorts I have downloaded for free and quickly gone through. 

I think my erotica, such as it is, is different (and original) mainly for its character descriptions and its moments of humor and situational comedy, and the passion of the characters: the love or erotic desire that shows through. Not all of it is as good as my best, but I am really proud of, say, "Erotic Adventure in Thailand," which continues to sell as a standalone story.


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## M.G. Russell (Sep 23, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Frankly I think some people went way off the deep end and whipped out their +1 Cloaks of Righteous Indignation for no good reason early on in the thread. Even the OP didn't bash the genre or the people writing it, but just expressed frustration that it's difficult to find the good stories for all of the garbage currently flooding the market.


I wasn't going to respond to this post but in light of some posts since this one showed up I have changed my mind. First of all, that very first sentence is a put-down if I ever heard one. And yes, the OP *did* bash the genre. The title of the thread is a negative comment on the genre. Then she said:


> nearly all of them have the guy as some rich idiot who has zero manners but for some reason the dumb woman thinks that's endearing and she can't wait to do whatever he says, even if it borders on what would be classed as ABUSIVE in today's world. Then you've got the cover art ( Some guy with rippling muscles ). Stereotypes and cliches are rampant! Not to mention how most are just 50 shades of grey repacked, different job, different intern. Please.


And this statement , again from the OP:


> Maybe there is a market for those free standing sex 7k shorts. A hoard of hungry housewives who aren't getting any at home and get off on this stuff lol


And this statement, also by the OP:


> Male is always an [expletive] ( but maybe women like [expletive]s, or that's all they have ever known, or that turns them on )
> Woman is always a clutz, needs a few brains cells. Especially if she likes [expletive]s who FORCE themselves on the women.
> Story is usually ( intern, emailing, man saying " You are going to do XYZ whether you like it or not )


Can you please explain how that is not bashing the genre and those who write in that category? And more particularly, those who read these short books. I certainly see this as negative thinking about the genre. I found an additional eight posts in this thread that are of a similar nature. I won't include them all here but if you go back and read through the thread I'm sure you can find them.

So I don't think people are "going off the deep end and whipping out their +1 Cloaks of Righteous Indignation for no good reason" - your words. I think that people have a right to speak out without it being categorized as Cloaks of Righteous Indignation.



> While others have (rightfully) pointed out there are bad books in every genre, the erotica market is *vastly* different. Not many people are going to take the time and effort to write a stack of 120k word epic fantasy novels hoping to get rich quick, and you are certainly not going to publish 20 science fiction shorts of 5-12k and make $10,000 a month. You're not going to do it in horror. You're not going to do it in thrillers. You're not even going to do it in romance unless you win the serial lottery. But you absolutely can do it in erotica. There are people with just a handful of shorts sitting on the bestseller list bringing in tens of thousands of dollars a month. What other genre can you do that with?


I think you have hit the nail on the head with this statement. It seems to me that the problem people have with the short erotica market is exactly that...people can write short stories and make thousands of dollars a month. After reading many threads here on KBoards, sooner or later it seems that most of the discussion reverts to that sore spot. People don't like it that there are people who make decent money writing short erotica. That is a fairly universal sentiment in several erotica threads I have read.

You say: the erotica market is


> *vastly* different.


Yes, in some ways I think it is. People can actually write something and make a few dollars instead of writing and making very little money. I know of several single moms who write erotica. They have children and want to be at home with them and they need to support them. I applaud their ingenuity in being able to do that and if they do it by writing short erotica more power to them as far as I'm concerned.

I know several who tried writing in other genres, including non-fiction but were not able to earn enough to provide for their families. These women, in my opinion, need our support and encouragement, they don't need to see all this negative talk.



> Given that it's far easier to produce a single 5-12k short than it is a 50k+ novel and you can sell that short for $2.99 when short novels in other genres are priced at $2.99 or less, naturally it's going to attract a horde of get-rich-quick types who flood the market hoping to strike the gold vein. You can find ads like this https://www.odesk.com/o/jobs/job/_~011ea8115869b83be9/ all over the internet.Commissioned 30-40k words for a flat $120. And someone accepted it. People are paying $20 for someone else to crank out a short, throwing on a $5 stock photo, and building up entire catalogs of this stuff.


Yes, this does happen. But as I said earlier in this thread, it also happens with topics like health, cooking and dieting. And my point in my earlier post is still valid. Those who are churning out books that relate to health could well damage a reader's health. And those who churn out cookbooks can cost people money and frustration because a recipe doesn't turn out.

I have taken several of these courses and believe me, they are just as bad as the ones that tell you to write erotica and make a quick buck. But as I also said in an earlier post, no one bothers to whine about those genres. And I notice that my previous statements about those categories were studiously ignored.



> So it's a valid problem. It's not author bashing and it's not genre bashing to point out that there is a legitimate problem with the short erotica market being flooded by people hoping to cash in on the gravy train by publishing (not necessarily *writing* as I pointed out above) a large number of stories as quickly and cheaply as possible, and this leads directly to the complaint that the OP expressed.


Yes, there is a problem. However, I do not believe it can be fixed by the kinds of disparaging comments that I have seen about the genre, its authors and readers in this thread and others similar to it.

And as I also said above, I think the real problem is that people are not happy that someone is making some decent money from writing erotic shorts. There have been enough references to the issue of money in this thread and other similar ones to lead me to that conclusion. This, of course, is only my opinion.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

locking this thread while I review....there have been reports.

Betsy
KB Mod


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