# D2D's statement re: their banned book/author policy -- p.3, reply #55



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

UPDATE: D2D has clarified their policy. http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,265457.msg3696709.html#msg3696709

Now, it's up to Amazon to help police this by communicating with D2D when banned books and authors reappear in the Amazon store.
____________

Re-posting this in its own thread because it's a loophole that Amazon and D2D both need to know about (and they will directly -- I've since received the final bit of evidence needed, and likely others have already reported it as well). Is it responsible to discuss this publicly and tip other black hatters off, which is purportedly why Amazon refuses to discuss any details of what they consider "manipulative" actions? Well, if we discuss it early and publicly, the loophole will likely get closed a lot quicker than if we let folk profit for months or years before action is taken. Bad behavior should not be rewarded. IMO.

Looking at one particular author's case (in their own words, their KDP account was banned, they tried setting up a new KDP account under their spouse's name, that account was banned too, so they republished via D2D), here's what I'm seeing:

Titles repubbed via D2D are getting new ASINs. When an ASIN is assigned, it's the next number in a progressive series, so pretty easy to tell what's new and what's old.

Books that were pulled off of Amazon and repubbed via D2D, all received ASINs that begin B07B4.

For instance, one book's ASIN when first pubbed on Amazon in Aug 2013 began with B00E. (When it was advertised on one of the ad sites in June 2017, that was still the ASIN.) Today, that book's ASIN begins with B07B4.

Here's the kicker: *The pub date still shows Aug 2013, and the reviews on the page date back to Aug 2013.*

Three other books I've tracked back also all have ASINs that begin with B07B4, yet their pub dates on the product page are: July 2016, Jan 2017 and June 2017. And the reviews all date back to their original pub dates.

*Unless you compare the ASIN to the pub date, you could easily believe that the books are still being published by KDP.*

As with other accounts we've seen through which banned authors are resurfacing on Amazon, this author's books are unable to be enrolled in KU.

IMO, the owner of an account terminated for cause should not be allowed back in through backdoors. Amazon seemed to be diligent in that the author above stated that when they attempted to publish a banned title under their spouse's new account, Amazon banned their spouse's account too. But whatever software Amazon is using to check for copyright infringement via titles pubbed through KDP, they don't appear to be using it on titles pubbed outside of the KDP system.

Likewise, we know of other banned authors who are republishing their previously banned books through non-KDP/non-D2D accounts. The common, amazing thing is that these authors are continuing to use the pennames that were banned, the titles are the same as they were in the catalogs when they were banned, and the old pages with existing reviews are being reused.

Checking new accounts through aggregators or non-KDP pubs against pennames (and their book titles/pages) that have been terminated for cause would seem to be a no-brainer first step in curbing this practice.

Checking all book content with the same plagiarism-detecting software already in use and comparing across all content already submitted, no matter who or what company has submitted it, would seem to be a good second step.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Some of the banned authors publishing under a new "company" are putting their books into KU. It's whack-a-mole.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Phoenix, are you sure this is a loophole, rather than a conscious choice on Amazon's part? It could be that Amazon actually would like to have these authors back on the platform, to satisfy whatever readers may want their books, but does not want to give them access to KU/Select, which seems so much more vulnerable to manipulation than straight-up sales. Letting them in via D2D or some other distributor would accomplish that. Especially if these authors are denied the use of permafree, which they could be at Amazon's discretion, they'd be stuck having to get readers to pay money for each book on its merits. Maybe something along those lines is what Amazon has in mind?


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> Phoenix, are you sure this is a loophole, rather than a conscious choice on Amazon's part? It could be that Amazon actually would like to have these authors back on the platform, to satisfy whatever readers may want their books, but does not want to give them access to KU/Select, which seems so much more vulnerable to manipulation than straight-up sales. Letting them in via D2D or some other distributor would accomplish that. Especially if these authors are denied the use of permafree, which they could be at Amazon's discretion, they'd be stuck having to get readers to pay money for each book on its merits. Maybe something along those lines is what Amazon has in mind?


This is my thought. In most cases, it's not the books being banned for cause, but rather, the publisher being banned for cause. The books themselves are not the problem, so long as they're being submitted to Amazon by someone with clean hands.

Also, if Indie Bob really had an awesome, popular book, gamed the system got banned, but then sells his book to a traditional publisher, Amazon isn't going to want to deal with the headache of "it's okay to republish a book if it's coming from Tor, but not if it's coming from Tiny McSmallpress."


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

I've sent the link for this thread to D2D so they can be aware of the question and maybe figure it out from their end--what is Amazon's intent, will they hold D2D liable in some way if they view this as D2D colluding in getting around the TOS. At least it needs to be clarified.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I don't think this is what is happening, because Amazon can and does ban people from putting books into KU right from their KDP dash. They already have that tool, so I can't seem them wanting someone who they want publishing on their site to go through a distributor/competitor instead. If it was just a matter of "you aren't allowed to use KU anymore" then they would have allowed the banned authors back into KDP but locked them out of using KU (which is a punishment they have done to other authors already, so nothing new).
> 
> This is a loophole for getting around not being allowed to have a KDP account due to abuse of said account.


I just wonder if it's not a loophole so much as "YOU are not allowed to have a KDP account" not being the same as "YOUR BOOKS cannot be sold on Amazon."


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

It's a loophole until Amazon clarifies its policies. It took them awhile, but they clarified (insofar as Amazon ever clarifies anything to the point of crystal-clearedness) what bonus content is, what the policy on giveaways is, and many other loopholes that authors/publishers were using trying to circumvent the intended purpose of the rules that were already existing at the time.

It's possible banned authors fleeing to D2D since November hasn't been more than an occasional, low-profile issue. There may have been no reason prior to amend the TOS -- or to think about amending it. Before November, it wasn't as easy as opening an account with D2D and -- presto! -- back on Amazon. But with more authors/publishers being banned, clarifying the policy now seems like a reasonable request. 

I've sent along names and screenshots to both D2D and Amazon. If it's a loophole to be closed, we might see a TOS update in a few weeks or months. If it's acceptable business practice in Amazon's eyes, there will be no amendments clarifying what Amazon's policy regarding 3rd-party aggregators is.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> I don't think this is what is happening, because Amazon can and does ban people from putting books into KU right from their KDP dash. They already have that tool, so I can't seem them wanting someone who they want publishing on their site to go through a distributor/competitor instead. If it was just a matter of "you aren't allowed to use KU anymore" then they would have allowed the banned authors back into KDP but locked them out of using KU (which is a punishment they have done to other authors already, so nothing new).
> 
> This is a loophole for getting around not being allowed to have a KDP account due to abuse of said account.


Ah, I didn't realize they could shut people with KDP accounts out of KU. If they can do that, I don't see much reason to push people into the D2D workaround. They could get the same result in a way that preserved more control for them if they shut people out of KU through KDP.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

Annie B said:


> This is a loophole for getting around not being allowed to have a KDP account due to abuse of said account.


Absolutely! 100% loophole.

Allowing this loophole sets a dangerous precedent. The less than ethical author is led to believe, "I can bend as many rules as I want, if I get caught, the back door is unlocked." Plus, not being allowed into KENP is not really a penalty (get a $2.00 royalty for a purchase or less than a penny per alleged page read) Being able to easily circumvent the ban makes it irrelevant.

Zon's lack of controls (auditor term for rules or work flow sequences that minimize risk by providing predictable results) make it difficult to enforce their TOS. Having a TOS with no controls or real enforcement is a recipe for disaster, because it invites fraud, manipulation, and scammers.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Lefevre said:


> Absolutely! 100% loophole.
> 
> Allowing this loophole sets a dangerous precedent. The less than ethical author is led to believe, "I can bend as many rules as I want, if I get caught, the back door is unlocked." Plus, not being allowed into KENP is not really a penalty (get a $2.00 royalty for a purchase or less than a penny per alleged page read) Being able to easily circumvent the ban makes it irrelevant.
> 
> Zon's lack of controls (auditor term for rules or work flow sequences that minimize risk by providing predictable results) make it difficult to enforce their TOS. Having a TOS with no controls or real enforcement is a recipe for disaster, because it invites fraud, manipulation, and scammers.


I agree the loophole should be closed, but keep in mind most of the abuses were related to KU in some way. Yes, there was a little incentivized buying in some cases, but most of the big abuses related to KU. We might want a more drastic punishment, but can authors involved in KU scams do much outside KU?

That said, I recall reading that one of the reasons Amazon cut off D2D distribution some years back was that banned authors were getting back in through D2D. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, assuming the information I saw is correct, I imagine D2D's agreement with Amazon must include language that would prohibit them from distributing banned authors. In that case, D2D may take action even if Amazon doesn't. They have to tread cautiously with Amazon for somewhat the same reasons we should--because who knows what Amazon will decide to do next?


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

I would assume both Amazon and KDP would think "If it's not costing us, and we're gonna make money from book sales --what the heck'' and allow it. But I also think taking in KDP-booted authors would be a mistake for D2D. In the long run, D2D would do well to forfeit those potential sales, in favor of a "If you've been kicked out of KDP we don't want you either" policy. Bottom line, D2D: get in bed with dogs, get up with fleas. Those booted authors will find _some_ way to screw you over.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Amazon bans publishers, not authors. They have never said that another person can no longer publish their work after being banned from having a publishing account. They ban people from having a publishing account and opening further publishing accounts.

If someone hands their book rights over to D2D, they are no longer the publisher. D2D is. It’s the same as if a banned person were to sell their books to another publisher who would then go to publish the books on Amazon.

You are confusing the idea of an author being banned (which rarely if ever happens)  and someone having their KDP rights banned. 

Basically, this is a non-issue that Amazon certainly already knows about and doesn’t care about. Why would they? Getting your KDP account banned is a massive punishment enough, and Amazon still wants access to content that makes them money.


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

I'd send the information to D2D. Smaller company with a lot on the line if Amazon gets testy. I think your more likely to get an answer and action that way. I doubt they want to be in the middle of this storm of brown matter. They will probably just cut ties with the banned authors after getting in touch with you. I'd do it but I don't have the information.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2018)

Becca Mills said:


> Phoenix, are you sure this is a loophole, rather than a conscious choice on Amazon's part? It could be that Amazon actually would like to have these authors back on the platform, to satisfy whatever readers may want their books, but does not want to give them access to KU/Select, which seems so much more vulnerable to manipulation than straight-up sales.


I agree with this. Personally I don't care if they're allowed to sell their books through a distributor. I think it's an intended loophole. They were banned from Amazon because they were cheating KU and they can't get back into KU through D2D. Problem solved. I know some people would love to see the banned authors receive a literary death sentence but that's just not realistic.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

ParkerAvrile said:


> Thank you for the voice of sanity. Bad people write good books all the time. Some of these authors had a genuine market. They will do no harm to KU distributing via D2D, and their fans can still enjoy their work. I don't have a problem with that.
> 
> Trying to suppress the books is censorship, and censorship is bad for authors.


Ehh, they don't allow criminals to make money from their crimes. Convicted murderers or their heirs cannot make any money if they write a book about what they did. Is that censorship?

People forget, censorship is about the government and public areas (libraries and schools). If a private company (even one publicly traded) doesn't want to sell an author's books, that's their decision.

Personally, from what I know about some of the people involved, what I know about the situation, what I've pieced together, and what I feel comfortable assuming, I think they should all be counting their lucky stars that _all_ they got was an account termination. Seriously, if even a fraction of any of the current hypotheses are accurate, a terminated account is getting off easy. The last thing I would consider doing is poking the bear. Instead, I'd put the books on other stores and wait until the bear went back to bed before I thumbed my nose at it.

How, Amazon chooses to react is ultimately up to Amazon. Just like the people who put their accounts at risk chose to act in that way. Amazon is accountable only to Amazon, not us, and certainly not those who decide to break rules (tos) and/or crimes (illegal lottery).



WasAnn said:


> While D2D is one avenue, they also have the ability to create shell publishing corps and get *back into KU* via that route. Honestly, if an author is banned forever, then that should be that.


Not anymore. Amazon specifically updated the TOS to close this loophole. Yes, we do know of an author who used this approach, but she did so before the change to the TOS. Whether Amazon grandfathers her in or retroactively goes back and closes the account, we don't know. That's up to Amazon.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

This reddit post claims one of the reasons D2D lost Amazon access was banned authors.

Bold mine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/selfpublish/comments/1wsclm/amazon_shuts_down_draft2digitals_account/



> Details are still somewhat sketchy, but apparently Amazon discovered a couple of authors who submitted directly to Amazon, while at the same time submitted to D2D to distribute to Amazon, basically listing their books twice in order to try and generate more sales.* Apparently this also brought to light that a handful of authors who were banned from listing on Amazon submitted to D2D to have their books listed on Amazon through them.* D2D of course had no way of knowing if someone was submitting to Amazon while at the same time submitting to them, nor any way of knowing if an author was previously banned from listing on Amazon unless Amazon informed them. While in the process of working in good faith to resolve the situation, Amazon arbitrarily blocked D2D from their account and threaten to shut it down permanently. Amazon is currently not accepting any submissions at all from D2D.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Yeah good point. How would D2D or any other aggregator know that Amazon had banned someone?


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

JWright said:


> Yeah good point. How would D2D or any other aggregator know that Amazon had banned someone?


Presumably, Amazon and D2D worked something out when Amazon let D2D back in eight months ago.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> In most cases, it's not the books being banned for cause, but rather, the publisher being banned for cause. The books themselves are not the problem, so long as they're being submitted to Amazon by someone with clean hands.


This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've heard here. What is the freaking point of terminating an account, if you're just going to let them publish anyway? They can tag an account and keep them out of KU.

You know what I think all this mess about terminating and banning accounts and stuff is? A bunch of *a word I'm not allowed to say here*. It's just window dressing. Keep the media off their backs, so they can look the other way when their own freaking system gets robbed to the tune of millions of dollars.

Hey, Amazon people lurking here? Shove it. Either fix the system, or come out and say it's open season in KU and you don't care. Then the rest of us will know where we stand, clear and simple.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

This does sound shady... but Amazon only banned them from KDP, right? They didn't ban them from publishing. I mean, how could they? In theory, Harper Collins could decide that they just have to have the rights to one of the books and publish it. Amazon probably doesn't have the willpower or manpower to micromanage every title that gets published. 

I am not defending these folks. If I could, I'd turn back the clock to 2011 when Amazon was my friend and my books were flying off the virtual shelves. But, I'm just a prawny prawn and I'm sure they have hurt my income with their shenanigans, but I'm not sure how Amazon can police other sites who distribute through them short of banning them altogether, which would once again put innocent authors in with the bad apples. What they could and should do is refuse to link the old title/reviews with the new one. Let them start from scratch with no KU to grease their launch.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

I really don't believe this speculation about Amazon not caring if banned authors come back through D2D because I remember what people said the first time D2D lost Amazon access.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Ava Glass said:


> Presumably, Amazon and D2D worked something out when Amazon let D2D back in eight months ago.


Okay, thanks. Yeah because D2D would have no way of knowing otherwise. Any book that has been published on Amazon before, Amazon should of course know that. They of course could come up with new books and names - which is what the changes to the TOS seems to cover, but people will look for work arounds, like just starting up a new LLC. We shall see.

It does seem to me Amazon does care or they wouldn't have changed the TOS that says you can't start a new account if they terminate your account.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

ParkerAvrile said:


> Thank you for the voice of sanity. Bad people write good books all the time. Some of these authors had a genuine market. They will do no harm to KU distributing via D2D, and their fans can still enjoy their work. I don't have a problem with that.
> 
> Trying to suppress the books is censorship, and censorship is bad for authors.


My thoughts also.

I don't see the point in putting the offending authors in some sort of permanent prison. They had a lot of legit readers. If they can't game the system anymore, why should anyone care if they still publish books? If they play by the rules, let them play. They gamed a system that made it easy for them to game it, they didn't go out and murder somebody.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

MaryMcDonald said:


> This does sound shady... but Amazon only banned them from KDP, right? They didn't ban them from publishing. I mean, how could they? In theory, Harper Collins could decide that they just have to have the rights to one of the books and publish it. Amazon probably doesn't have the willpower or manpower to micromanage every title that gets published.


Amazon banned them from publishing on Amazon. If another publisher acquired the rights to those books, then yeah, that would be clear. But if it's the same publisher except under a different name, that's not the same thing as Harper Collins buying the rights to a backlist.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

This is allegedly what went down years ago. I wonder what Amazon and D2D worked out last year.

Bold mine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/selfpublish/comments/1wsclm/amazon_shuts_down_draft2digitals_account/cf625xa/



> A problem was found with two authors double-dipping (submitting directly to Amazon, and also submitting the same books through D2D). There was no possible way that D2D could know these two authors already had Amazon accounts, and were submitting multiple copies of the same book. It's even possible that the authors themselves didn't realize that they were in violation of Amazon's extremely vague rules, since many sites do allow multiple submissions of the same books from different venues. (Don't believe it? Check out Apple, Sony, B&N, etc. and see for yourselves how many copies of books are multi-listed through Smashwords, Lulu, BookTango, LightningSource, and a host of others.)
> 
> When Amazon sent notice to D2D about these two authors, D2D addressed it immediately by removing their books from their own database. They did exactly what was asked of them. *Amazon responded to their immediate compliance by claiming that they were in violation of Amazon's TOS for publishing books from previously-banned authors&#8230;and blocked their account.*
> 
> ...


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

AuthorX said:


> Amazon bans publishers, not authors. They have never said that another person can no longer publish their work after being banned from having a publishing account. They ban people from having a publishing account and opening further publishing accounts.
> 
> If someone hands their book rights over to D2D, they are no longer the publisher. D2D is. It's the same as if a banned person were to sell their books to another publisher who would then go to publish the books on Amazon.
> 
> ...


You are partially right. D2D isn't a publisher. They are an aggregator. Bypassing an account closure by going through D2D is a loophole, imo.

However, you are right I believe in regards to publishers. So in the cases of those republishing through a (small) publishing company is probably not considered a loophole.

I do wonder if it matters who owns the publishing company. If it is owned by an author whose KDP account was banned, Amazon could consider it the same "publisher" as the banned account. But maybe if they only go through KDP.

But I do wonder if banned authors can and will simply publish through an independent publisher. They do have to give permission to the publisher to publish their works, which includes a contract, which is no different than the author choosing to publish with any other publisher. They are signing away rights. And likely will have to cough up some royalties for the privilege.

That's a lot of control to give up. So unless you were directly a part of the publisher, or had your hands in deep, you'd (banned author) would likely want to have your own "publisher".

When it comes to Amazon and non-KDP publisher accounts, I'm guessing the process is a bit more involved and there might be additional requirements. It might also require more than one author. A certain amount perhaps? A thresh-hold? This could mean non-banned authors could be duped, too. That's speculation though, because I don't know how it works.

That might not be an option for some authors with banned accounts.

Does that mean a new opportunity for someone who has a non-KDP publisher account? I'm snorting at the thought of someone whose account was banned, possibly for violations, have to choose whether to trust someone who also had their account banned for possible violations...

If a loophole like this exists, will this increase unscrupulous activity? Will people who already riding the line continue to push further if the threat of having your account banned is no longer a career ender?

Scary.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

There's an assumption in this thread that accounts are/were terminated based on abuses of the KU system. We don't know that for sure because we don't know the real reasons. 

I can think of a couple of possibilities of breaking TOS that doesn't affect KU that has been done. Rank manipulation is not a KU only issue. You can manipulate rank with books that aren't in KU.

Most people who scam these days do so by exploiting KU, but scamming has existed long before KU. And not every scam is limited by KU. 

We just don't know why someone's account was closed. Assuming it was because of violations with KU ignores the fact that banning someone for just Select is possible. If Amazon just wanted a publisher out of Select, but still wanted to profit, they would just kick them out of Select.

But if they were manipulating something that didn't just involve KU, having their whole account closed makes sense. 

At the risk of using an example, one possible reason a certain account was terminated recently had to do with reviews, not KU. I'm not saying that was the reason. I'm simply pointing out that assuming KU is the reason is iffy.

It also links back to publishers. If an independent publisher (a banned author) gets caught doing things that break TOS, that's on them. If their books are then published by an outside publisher, Amazon wouldn't assume that those shady or black-hat tactics would be used by the new publisher.

Which brings up another interesting thing. If someone got around the ban by going through another publisher, but controlled that publisher, and continued to try and scam Amazon. If caught, any other authors published by that publisher is at risk.

I really hope I'm off base here.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Perry Constantine said:


> Amazon banned them from publishing on Amazon. If another publisher acquired the rights to those books, then yeah, that would be clear. But if it's the same publisher except under a different name, that's not the same thing as Harper Collins buying the rights to a backlist.


Ah, got it. I thought it was just using KDP.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> My thoughts also.
> 
> I don't see the point in putting the offending authors in some sort of permanent prison. They had a lot of legit readers. If they can't game the system anymore, why should anyone care if they still publish books? If they play by the rules, let them play. They gamed a system that made it easy for them to game it, they didn't go out and murder somebody.


It's a big assumption that authors who had accounts terminated for gaming the system (and were indeed gaming the system) will suddenly stop and go legit. KU is rife with potential abuse, but it's far from necessary in order to game the system.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> There's an assumption in this thread that accounts are/were terminated based on abuses of the KU system. We don't know that for sure because we don't know the real reasons.


The authors received emails saying they were terminated for 'Kindle Unlimited manipulation.'


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

There are things like running illegal lotteries or incentivizing reviewers that can manipulate KU but also extend beyond it. There's plenty of manipulation on Amazon outside of ebooks and KU where people with Seller Central accounts are gaming the system - especially with reviews.  All the review issues lately are definitely not just about books. Also, Amazon could decide to terminate an entire account based solely on KU if they want to - as opposed to just revoking KU privileges.  

We will just have to see how Amazon responds and we don't specifically know why anyone was banned.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

ParkerAvrile said:


> Eh, they're being honest & open that these are their books, this is their pen, either they or D2D has apparently approached Amazon to link the old reviews with the new. If they'd done otherwise and NOT linked the old titles/reviews, do you think anyone advocating the unpublishing of these books would be any happier? There is a disturbing element of "mission creep" here, and I simply can't support any movement that encourages the suppression of books.
> 
> The person who thinks criminals are not allowed to publish books is just wrong. That bestselling author we all know who killed someone maybe can't make money selling a book about the actual crime she was convicted of. She can write, publish, and be a best-seller all day long when she's writing about fictional murders. As far as I know, all of the authors under discussion write fiction. Popular fiction. They have fans. The authors have been punished, but why should their fans also be punished?
> 
> ...


Google Play, Smashwords, Apple, and Barnes and Noble still exist as options for these people (as long as they don't do anything to get banned at those stores too). It is hyperbolic to argue that an Amazon ban means readers can't get these publishers' books.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

loraininflorida said:


> The authors received emails saying they were terminated for 'Kindle Unlimited manipulation.'


Some authors, not all the banned authors. And that's what has been said from the authors, who admit themselves they don't know. I know in one case, the author said there were possible reported copyright violations that could have contributed, which is not Kindle Unlimited manipulation. I believe they got that same email from Amazon, so I don't think they know for sure and are just throwing out ideas. I know in one case, and it isn't recent, that a claim was made about why the account was terminated backed up with an email from Amazon, but the email didn't actually mention banning the account. Just removing books for violating the terms of Kindle Unlimited. That might have been the reason the entire account was terminated, but it might not.

I personally don't believe that all the account terminations, even recently, are all due to one common cause. One of the authors whose account was terminated has stated that Amazon is allowing them to appeal and have a second look. And not all those whose accounts have been banned have been so recently.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

ParkerAvrile said:


> Eh, they're being honest & open that these are their books, this is their pen, either they or D2D has apparently approached Amazon to link the old reviews with the new. If they'd done otherwise and NOT linked the old titles/reviews, do you think anyone advocating the unpublishing of these books would be any happier? There is a disturbing element of "mission creep" here, and I simply can't support any movement that encourages the suppression of books.
> 
> The person who thinks criminals are not allowed to publish books is just wrong. That bestselling author we all know who killed someone maybe can't make money selling a book about the actual crime she was convicted of. She can write, publish, and be a best-seller all day long when she's writing about fictional murders. As far as I know, all of the authors under discussion write fiction. Popular fiction. They have fans. The authors have been punished, but why should their fans also be punished?
> 
> ...


I don't like the idea of books being banned. Or readers not being able to finish series they love or more books from an author they love.

On a case-by-case basis, handwaving it as no big deal to be let back in makes sense. Because it is arguable those specific authors might have been innocent, or duped, or unaware, or only using KU to manipulate (in order to profit from KU), then I'd agree it's not a big deal.

However, that's making a few assumptions. One being that the way they were manipulating Kindle Unlimited (if they were) wouldn't also affect or work outside of KU. It might not be as profitable, but scamming has been around a lot longer than KU.

Two being that just because one avenue of making easy money is closed, they won't look for another. I'm not speaking of all authors who have gotten accounts terminated but it stands to logic that if someone has gotten rich off of manipulating KU, they aren't going to go legit. They'll look for new ways. It's exactly what happens when Amazon changes things. (Like KUv1 and KUv2)

Three that all authors who have had accounts terminated who would use a loophole or use D2D to republish are legitimate authors who write books for a living. If something like this exists for some authors, it will exist for all.

Which means they won't just go away. They'll just find another system. Which also means they aren't being punished


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

ParkerAvrile said:


> The person who thinks criminals are not allowed to publish books is just wrong. That bestselling author we all know who killed someone maybe can't make money selling a book about the actual crime she was convicted of. She can write, publish, and be a best-seller all day long when she's writing about fictional murders. As far as I know, all of the authors under discussion write fiction. Popular fiction. They have fans. The authors have been punished, but why should their fans also be punished?


Except that's not what I said. What I said is that they aren't able to profit from their crime. Not sure if I wasn't clear of if you just didn't read it. Your post said that just because someone's a bad person doesn't mean they aren't a good writer and can't publish books. I pointed out that the hyperbole of your example isn't completely true, but I will admit, it's great rhetoric.

I also said they could publish at other storefronts if they wanted to. Again, not sure if you just missed it, or I wasn't clear.

And finally, I reiterated, Amazon is a private company and they can choose what they distribute. It's not censorship. Same way a store owner chooses what products they want to sell. If people want to read their books, there are other avenues to publishing. The problem with the entire premise of your original post is based on a fallacy. No one has a right to publish on Amazon. It is a privilege and we publish at their pleasure. That means, if they don't want a book on their storefront, they can remove it. Even if it's because they don't like a color used on a cover. Is it completely unlikely? Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that publishing through KDP is *_not_ a right.

* Edited to add the not since it changes the entire meaning of that last sentence.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

HopelessFanatic said:


> It's a big assumption that authors who had accounts terminated for gaming the system (and were indeed gaming the system) will suddenly stop and go legit. KU is rife with potential abuse, but it's far from necessary in order to game the system.


I still maintain that if they play by the rules, let them play.

I'm sure that if there is some new shenanigans taking place the hammer will come down some time afterwards.

As for your insistence that it is impossible for someone to go legit, based on assumptions, it's still just an assumption either way. I'm not in favor of permanently banishing people based on such assumptions. Maybe you are, and if so, you've made your point.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

As already stated, there are other online platforms to sell ebooks from besides Amazon if you can stay within TOS.  If not, you can sell from your own website, but then you still have to follow the TOS of your web hosting service, payment processor, email service provider, etc.  

Every online platform and service has a TOS you need to follow.  If they aren't enforced then why even bother having one?

I think if I felt I hadn't done anything wrong I would at least look into the possibility of arbitration. 

Ultimately Amazon does have a right to sell what they want to on their website. 

Anyway, those who think it's okay are going to continue to think that way.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

The issue whether a company has the right not to do business with whom it wills. That's up to Amazon. 

If the business were yours (anyone's), you'd have the right to refuse to distribute goods from that company, no matter what the route, For example, if Amazon decided not to distribute Johnson and Johnson products because of some perceived misbehavior on the part of the latter, that's within their right. 

In fact, Amazon does have some categories of products they simply will not distribute, no matter who makes them. That's their right.

So, by either rationale, Amazon could ban an author, or the author's books, or any products the author is in any way involved in. As long as it's for cause, and not based on some kind of prohibited discrimination, they can do that.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Also, someone publishing thought D2D isn't eligible for KU and can't really do much to manipulate the system. The get paid via D2D... So why be up in arms about it?

I feel like this is one of those Let Sleeping Dogs Lie situations. No reason to spread salt on their wounds... I don't personally know any of the authors who have had their KDP accounts terminated, but I'm glad they at least have options to continue a career as a writer. They might not be making as much money as they would by going through KDP directly, but at least they still have side options to get their books in front of customers. Let's not wish harm on each other... One day we could find ourselves on the other side of the fence (perhaps through no fault of our own or merely a system error) and glad that we still have some lesser options available.

These past few months people have seen so much kicking in the teeth while people are down. I'd love to see a little positivity and support for eachother make a comeback.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

AuthorX said:


> Also, someone publishing thought D2D isn't eligible for KU and can't really do much to manipulate the system. The get paid via D2D... So why be up in arms about it?
> [...]
> These past few months people have seen so much kicking in the teeth while people are down. I'd love to see a little positivity and support for eachother make a comeback.


To my mind, it's not a matter of positivity and support, it's a matter of what, precisely, the banned people were banned from. If they were banned from having an account on KDP, then they can't open a new account under their own name, their wife's name or a company name. They could, however, publish through an aggregator or a small publisher or even through a big five publisher (although the latter seems implausible), none of which would give the banned person access directly to KDP.

If they were banned from ever darkening Amazon's doors again, in any way, shape or form, then that would be a different matter, and publishing through D2D would breach those terms very clearly. My memory is that it was an account ban only, but my memory is not to be relied upon, and I'd just like someone to clarify the point.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Amazon is a private company and they can choose what they distribute. It's not censorship.


This.

And I cannot believe this stuff about if they follow the rules it's okay to let them back. Understand this: they don't follow the rules. They laugh at the rules. They laugh at people who aren't doing the same underhanded stuff they are. They think we are fools. Any sympathy you give them is misguided. They don't give us any.

False copyright infringement is enough to get a person's account blocked, and then terminated? Please. That's not how it works. They would be given the chance to prove it was their work. If they couldn't do that, then yes, that book is gone. Or if it was a lot of violations, they're getting an account terminated. That's the law. It's not some random TOS violation, it's breaking Federal law.

And the fans? Heartbroken because they can't get their favorite books? All they have to do is buy them on another site. No one has been banned or barred from publishing in general, just not on Amazon. But you know what? The vast majority of these fans are going to move on to the next book. Because I guarantee you, the smart authors in those genres are already doing everything they can to make sure their books are front and center now. Though, I would hope they have enough sense to do it without violating TOS!


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

she-la-ti-da said:


> And I cannot believe this stuff about if they follow the rules it's okay to let them back. Understand this: they don't follow the rules. They laugh at the rules. They laugh at people who aren't doing the same underhanded stuff they are. They think we are fools. Any sympathy you give them is misguided. They don't give us any.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> And the fans? Heartbroken because they can't get their favorite books? All they have to do is buy them on another site. No one has been banned or barred from publishing in general, just not on Amazon. But you know what? The vast majority of these fans are going to move on to the next book. Because I guarantee you, the smart authors in those genres are already doing everything they can to make sure their books are front and center now. Though, I would hope they have enough sense to do it without violating TOS!


Most fans probably have no idea what a TOS is. They just read what they read. They have no ideas of the intricacies of publishing. They merely peruse, see product, buy or borrow, and consume. While it's true they may probably move on to other authors, it won't be because the fans themselves are doing so because some bad actors violated a TOS. Most of them probably aren't aware that there was a problem. They will purchase/borrow what is available, and they find they like.

As for the bad actors, they played a system that let them play like that more-or-less freely for a year or so, if what I have read here and elsewhere is true. Then, finally, the hammer came down. Perhaps some are truly crooks, and will always remain so. I'm not willing to go so far as to pretend I an omniscient and can get inside the mind of every single bad actor out there. I will leave that to others.

I understand a certain level of anger some may have over having their chances at revenue reduced by black-hat tactics, but the Zon has acted and maybe they are capable of running their own business. After all -- as many have stated here -- it's their business, and they ultimately run their own show. On that I would hazard a guess we can all agree.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

AuthorX said:


> Also, someone publishing thought D2D isn't eligible for KU and can't really do much to manipulate the system. The get paid via D2D... So why be up in arms about it?


There's less chance to manipulate outside of KU but there are other means as has already been discussed - manipulating reviews for example - which has nothing to do with whether you publish directly from an Amazon account or through a distributor. If someone wanted to manipulate reviews and their books are for sale on Amazon's site then you have the same opportunity whether you have an Amazon account or not. If someone has violated the TOS and then they come back through a distributor that means that Amazon has even less control over them. I personally wouldn't want to make the decision to terminate someone's account and then have them come back by some other means where I would have even less control over what they did with their products available for sale on my site.

It has nothing to do with being positive or negative about other authors. I have to uphold the TOS to keep my Amazon account. Everyone should have to play by the same rules as I do or the TOS doesn't mean much of anything. Simple as that.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> This.
> 
> And I cannot believe this stuff about if they follow the rules it's okay to let them back. Understand this: they don't follow the rules. They laugh at the rules. They laugh at people who aren't doing the same underhanded stuff they are. They think we are fools. Any sympathy you give them is misguided. They don't give us any.
> 
> ...


This!


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

jb1111 said:


> I still maintain that if they play by the rules, let them play.
> 
> I'm sure that if there is some new shenanigans taking place the hammer will come down some time afterwards.
> 
> As for your insistence that it is impossible for someone to go legit, based on assumptions, it's still just an assumption either way. I'm not in favor of permanently banishing people based on such assumptions. Maybe you are, and if so, you've made your point.


I never said it was impossible, nor did I say every author who has gotten their account terminated was necessarily intentionally breaking TOS. Nor do I think if someone found a loop-hole or exploit for KU means they will continue to do shady things if they aren't in KU anymore.

The danger with having a workaround isn't the legitimate authors returning, or those who may or may not continue shady tactics. It's the fact that the workaround will also work for the non-legitimate publishers, who aren't authors, and who aren't going to suddenly turn legit now that they aren't in KU since they never were in the first place.

I know there are certain authors on everyone's mind who have recently been banned, but they aren't the only ones who have had their accounts banned. The true scammers? They aren't announcing these things. They would never draw attention to themselves.

This isn't about specific people. If there is a hole Amazon can't control, anyone can come through it.

Like I said, there have been scams involving KDP from the start, long before KU. Not all manipulation or scamming on Amazon requires or involves KU, either.

How does Amazon know who will play by rules now? If they are being published by an outside publisher or going through an aggregator, Amazon has less control than they would. Could they then ban the books if TOS is broken again? Maybe. I don't know.

As for new shenanigans, why would it matter if Amazon brought down the hammer again? The loop-hole is still there. They can just come back.

This isn't about some authors getting a second chance out of Select/KU. It's more complicated and has further implications. If Amazon implemented a more case-by-case consideration, that's different. But if that's what Amazon wants, why wouldn't they just ban them from exclusivity?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> I'm not in favor of permanently banishing people based on such assumptions.


_I_ didn't banish anyone. Not one single person. Amazon did. I have no control over Amazon. So you can talk about me making assumptions, but that's fact. I get the feeling you don't like my opinion, and that's fine. I don't like yours. But let's be real here. This is about Amazon saying one thing, and then doing another. That affects my business. I don't have to like it, and I'm allowed to say so. Don't like it? There's an ignore function.

Again: The bad actors don't play by the rules. They never have. They never will. For many of them, this is about making as much money as they can by breaking the rules. The odd person who was trying something and it blew up in their face? Maybe they'll straighten up and fly right. Maybe. If Amazon thought so, they won't terminate the account. But, see? They did. With maybe one exception. One. Out of how many? A couple of dozen or more.

And no, the fans mostly don't know about TOS. But they understand playing by the rules. And they aren't nearly as loyal as some would like us to think. There's always another author out there, waiting to be found.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

ParkerAvrile said:


> Eh, they're being honest & open that these are their books, this is their pen, either they or D2D has apparently approached Amazon to link the old reviews with the new. If they'd done otherwise and NOT linked the old titles/reviews, do you think anyone advocating the unpublishing of these books would be any happier? There is a disturbing element of "mission creep" here, and I simply can't support any movement that encourages the suppression of books.
> 
> The person who thinks criminals are not allowed to publish books is just wrong. That bestselling author we all know who killed someone maybe can't make money selling a book about the actual crime she was convicted of. She can write, publish, and be a best-seller all day long when she's writing about fictional murders. As far as I know, all of the authors under discussion write fiction. Popular fiction. They have fans. The authors have been punished, but why should their fans also be punished?
> 
> ...


If a retailer doesn't want to stock your books, that's not suppression, that's a retailer making a business decision. Claiming it's suppression is like claiming Hachette is suppressing my books because they haven't offered me a publishing deal. That's not how it works. What about in the days before self-publishing? Were traditional publishers and bookstores suppressing books because they weren't allowing anyone to publish? Even now, it's difficult for indies to get their paperbacks into bookstores, does that mean bookstores are suppressing our books? I can't buy pornography on iTunes, does that mean Apple is suppressing porn?

Furthermore, Amazon is _not_ the only game in town. Kobo, iBooks, Google Play, Nook Press, Draft2Digital, Smashwords, and about a dozen or more other, smaller sites. Not to mention avenues available for selling directly to readers such as Patreon, Gumroad, Payhip, Bookfunnel, WooCommerce, etc.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

she-la-ti-da said:


> _I_ didn't banish anyone. Not one single person. Amazon did. I have no control over Amazon. So you can talk about me making assumptions, but that's fact. I get the feeling you don't like my opinion, and that's fine. I don't like yours. But let's be real here. This is about Amazon saying one thing, and then doing another. That affects my business. I don't have to like it, and I'm allowed to say so. Don't like it? There's an ignore function.


Exactly. Amazon is in control. They're making tons of money by the minute, and their business does quite well regardless of _anyone's_ opinion on this matter, whether yours or mine.

RE: your suggestion I use the ignore button: I understand this is a forum, where people are allowed to speak their opinions, so long as it is without insulting others. I don't recall ever insulting you or attacking you personally. If I did somehow, my apologies.

What the black hats were doing did not affect my own business, so perhaps that accounts for our difference of opinion on this matter. Amazon's "saying one thing and doing another" hasn't affected my business either, so possibly that is another reason for a difference of opinion.

I'm sorry if what they did has affected your business. Have a great day.

[grammar edit]


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

This is relevant. D2D has made a statement about banned and blocked authors:

_Please feel free to share this in any author groups you belong to:

RE: Our Blocked Book Policy

Draft2Digital does not allow books or authors who have been blocked by a retailer to use our service to "backdoor" into distribution on that sales channel.

If you or your book have been blocked from distributing to a service, such as Amazon or any other retailer, you will not be allowed to publish to that channel via D2D. If you do manage to publish to that channel and we discover that you have been blocked, we'll remove your book.

You're still welcome to publish at any other sales channel through D2D, and we'll still provide you with the best author support possible. But please do not attempt to publish to sales channels where you have been blocked. It can hurt our relationship with sales channels, making it more difficult for you and other authors to distribute your work. Plus, we really don't like having to pull a book from publication.

If you have any questions, email us at [email protected]_

https://www.facebook.com/Draft2Digital/photos/a.363307033781329.1073741829.341297015982331/1640571086054911

(I hope this is okay to post the link. I'm not sure where else the information is.)


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

jb1111 said:


> Exactly. Amazon is in control. They're making tons of money by the minute, and their business does quite well regardless of _anyone's_ opinion on this matter, whether yours or mine.
> 
> RE: your suggestion I use the ignore button: I understand this is a forum, where people are allowed to speak their opinions, so long as it is without insulting others. I don't recall ever insulting you or attacking you personally. If I did somehow, my apologies.
> 
> ...


That Amazon doesn't care about our opinions, at least of the time, is indisputable.

A lot of us could probably say we weren't affected by the black hats, but I'm not sure how to even measure that. When you have people using unsavory tactics to boost themselves, maybe that only affects relatively high sellers, but it could theoretically affect almost everyone. If nothing else, when these tactics come to light, they tend to increase the biases against self publishers. That's not fair, but that is how some people react. It becomes another part of the "Self publishers are ruining the industry" narrative.

Visibility on Amazon is a finite thing. If someone else is more visible than I because of better writer and/or better (ethical) promotion, great for them. If someone is more visible than I because of unethical practices, that's a whole other ball game.

All of that said, I'm not necessarily in the "ban people for life" camp. However, there have been instances in the past when Amazon was lenient, and black hats took advantage of that leniency. I think that's one reason some people react strongly in the opposite direction. There is also reason to doubt that Amazon will monitor carefully. They may this time, but sometimes new problems from former troublemakers have escaped their notice for months.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

HopelessFanatic said:


> This is relevant. D2D has made a statement about banned and blocked authors:
> 
> _Please feel free to share this in any author groups you belong to:
> 
> ...


As I suspected, D2D may take care of the problem if Amazon doesn't.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Thanks for the update HopelessFanatic, it's very much appreciated.  

I think it just goes to show, just because something is happening doesn't mean companies are fine with it.  Sometimes it just takes a while to catch up to it - and Amazon does tend to take longer than others.  I am happy D2D has made itself clear. 

I've never once been jealous of someone who is successful through using illegal, dishonest and/or shady means and I never will be.  I highly suspect that is true of a vast majority of people.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

ParkerAvrile said:


> None of that has any relevance to KDP or self-publishing because it isn't a scam for me to play cards better than you. Card counting is a perfectly legal activity. I am not obligated to instantly forget the cards I've seen as they're played.
> 
> That feeling of "ill at ease" has a name. It's called envy. A more productive use of your time is to improve your own game. If there's no card counters in your casino, it isn't a sign you're going to win, it's a sign the game isn't good enough to bother with.


It's not called envy, it's called hating cheaters.

And counting cards may not be illegal, but it will get you booted from a casino if they catch you at it.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

In all seriousness. 

How exactly is a former KU scammer republishing outside of KU, causing harm? They no longer benefit from page reads. And how exactly can they further scam outside of KU? Their sales will never equal what they were getting with KU page reads and book stuffing. At some point, we have to choose our battles. And a relentless hunting down of someone who has already been pretty seriously punished seems a little vendetta like to me.  Quite frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable and feels like borderline cyberstalking.


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## RPatton (May 28, 2017)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> In all seriousness.
> 
> How exactly is a former KU scammer republishing outside of KU, causing harm? They no longer benefit from page reads. And how exactly can they further scam outside of KU? Their sales will never equal what they were getting with KU page reads and book stuffing. At some point, we have to choose our battles. And a relentless hunting down of someone who has already been pretty seriously punished seems a little vendetta like to me. Quite frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable and feels like borderline cyberstalking.


This.

Sure, it feels like a bit of a cheat, but in the long run, the authors can't get into KDP-Select and without those page reads to supplement the cost of some of their activities, it's just not likely that it will be worthwhile to them.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

D2D has made it clear it is not okay with them being used as a backdoor and I'm  pretty sure Smashwords doesn't publish to Amazon, so they will have to set up their own corporations and try the back door that way.

I don't know why people would defend something that clearly has been shown to not be okay with the distributor.

There are plenty of posts showing other ways people can scam.  I believe the heart of many of the bans lies in incentivizing readers and/or reviewers, although I highly doubt everyone was banned for exactly the same thing.  Readers can still be incentivized outside of KU - not for page reads - but for reviews and other things .  That puts both reader and writer accounts at risk. 

As has already been stated many times, if Amazon just wanted to revoke their KU privileges they could have done that. They chose to terminate their accounts.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2018)

jb1111 said:


> What the black hats were doing did not affect my own business, so perhaps that accounts for our difference of opinion on this matter. Amazon's "saying one thing and doing another" hasn't affected my business either, so possibly that is another reason for a difference of opinion.


When people piss in the pool, it affects everyone. Even if you don't see it. It contaminates the pool and risks making everyone that comes in contact with it sick if left unchecked. Eventually, we all get covered with the smell of urine because we're in the pool with it.

Unscrupulous behavior impacts us all in visible and invisible ways. Amazon's arbitrary changes of algorithms, rank stripping, review removal, locking people out of their accounts. These are the obvious ways. But it also impacts us with poor customer service, because the more work Amazon reps have to put into dealing with scammers, the less attention honest authors can get. All resources are finite. Resources spend dealing with scammers are resources not allotted to honest authors.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I have no problem with cheaters being banned forever. In my experience, cheaters are cheaters. They do not change, and they do not confine themselves to one type of cheating. Some people truly feel entitled to whatever they can get. 

We all have a choice about what we do, but choices come with consequences. Amazon is not your momma who always gives you another chance. 

And no, that is not envy. I have a wonderful career and a wonderful life.


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## cdk (Feb 28, 2015)

> How exactly is a former KU scammer republishing outside of KU, causing harm?


With all due respect, I think that's the wrong question to ask because it's considered from the offender's point of view, i.e., how am I hurting anyone?

The two primary objectives of punishment are retribution and deterrence.

Looking at the bigger picture instead of the individual, being banned from selling on amazon's platform is a consequence that hopefully deters cheating. It's that simple. There is no vendetta. As people suffer consequences, hopefully it deters others who were considering unethical practices, and at the end of the day, isn't that better for everyone?


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

ParkerAvrile said:


> That feeling of "ill at ease" has a name. It's called envy.


Makes me laugh _every time. _

People who can't imagine actually having personal ethics think everyone else is jealous. What else could it be? Honesty? Pfffth. No one's really _honest_, are they? They're just mad they didn't think of it first...


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## BGArcher (Jun 14, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I have no problem with cheaters being banned forever. In my experience, cheaters are cheaters. They do not change, and they do not confine themselves to one type of cheating. Some people truly feel entitled to whatever they can get.
> 
> We all have a choice about what we do, but choices come with consequences. Amazon is not your momma who always gives you another chance.
> 
> And no, that is not envy. I have a wonderful career and a wonderful life.


Okay, but look at somebody like a certain guy that started a lot of this backlash with his illegal giveaway. Yes, he used shady tactics to make even more money. That being said, he still wrote books his audience loved. So in theory, if he stopped pushing illegal giveaways (and the creepy stuff on facebook that sprang up) should he be allowed to sell again? Should he never be able to sell books again?

_Edited to remove political comment. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

BGArcher said:


> Okay, but look at somebody like a certain guy that started a lot of this backlash with his illegal giveaway. Yes, he used shady tactics to make even more money. That being said, he still wrote books his audience loved. So in theory, if he stopped pushing illegal giveaways (and the creepy stuff on facebook that sprang up) should he be allowed to sell again? Should he never be able to sell books again?


Chance Carter started up a whole ring of cheaters that deliberately bilked Amazon and their fellow authors out of millions.

His fans (who don't seem like that many actual, real people, judging by the number of people he got to sign his petition. I swear, I could have gotten more signatures than that)--can still buy his books anywhere in the wide world. Except Amazon. If he actually had that many fans, for that matter, he could go get a tradpub deal. Maybe millions of actual humans would plunk down cash money for ghostwritten books about his rape fantasies. Who knows. People like all kinds of stuff I don't.

When you rob a bank, go to prison, and get out again, I'm guessing you're still unwelcome at that bank. Actions have consequences. Real world.

_Edited quoted post and bit that responded to now-deleted quoted material. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

cdk said:


> With all due respect, I think that's the wrong question to ask because it's considered from the offender's point of view, i.e., how am I hurting anyone?
> 
> The two primary objectives of punishment are retribution and deterrence.
> 
> Looking at the bigger picture instead of the individual, being banned from selling on amazon's platform is a consequence that hopefully deters cheating. It's that simple. There is no vendetta. As people suffer consequences, hopefully it deters others who were considering unethical practices, and at the end of the day, isn't that better for everyone?


I believe there are actually four objectives of punishment. The other two are to prevent recidivism (repeat offences) and to protect the populace from harm. So, applied to this, the banned authors won't be able to repeat their offence, and they won't be able to harm other authors by taking money and visibility from those who earned them. So we're four for four.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> When people p*ss in the pool, it affects everyone. Even if you don't see it. It contaminates the pool and risks making everyone that comes in contact with it sick if left unchecked. Eventually, we all get covered with the smell of urine because we're in the pool with it.
> 
> Unscrupulous behavior impacts us all in visible and invisible ways. Amazon's arbitrary changes of algorithms, rank stripping, review removal, locking people out of their accounts. These are the obvious ways. But it also impacts us with poor customer service, because the more work Amazon reps have to put into dealing with scammers, the less attention honest authors can get. All resources are finite. Resources spend dealing with scammers are resources not allotted to honest authors.


You make some very good points, and overall I agree with you.

However, I would venture that a large plurality of the authors here have bigger problems than banned scammers when it comes to gaining more sales or visibility for their eBooks. And I include myself in that number. I don't see how my 'hating' anyone (I've seen that word used several times over the past couple days at least) is going to help my own writing or sales.

If it works for others here, great. Power to them.

[edited for more clarity]


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

BGArcher said:


> Okay, but look at somebody like a certain guy that started a lot of this backlash with his illegal giveaway. Yes, he used shady tactics to make even more money. That being said, he still wrote books his audience loved. So in theory, if he stopped pushing illegal giveaways (and the creepy stuff on facebook that sprang up) should he be allowed to sell again? Should he never be able to sell books again?


He can sell his books on Kobo, Google Play, BN, iBooks, and Smash, just to name a few. He's just going to have to work a lot harder.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

BGArcher said:


> Okay, but look at somebody like a certain guy that started a lot of this backlash with his illegal giveaway. Yes, he used shady tactics to make even more money. That being said, he still wrote books his audience loved. So in theory, if he stopped pushing illegal giveaways (and the creepy stuff on facebook that sprang up) should he be allowed to sell again? Should he never be able to sell books again?


That's about as pathetic as the 'I was only doing it to put food on my kids' plates' rubbish. If you have to cheat then you aren't that good. If they have that many fans then they'll do okay outside of amazon. If they don't then tough - they shouldn't have risked their earnings by cheating.

Glad D2D made a swift statement. Why should the scammers be allowed to tarnish the business by trying to scam amazon again by getting in through the back door.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> In all seriousness.
> 
> How exactly is a former KU scammer republishing outside of KU, causing harm? They no longer benefit from page reads. And how exactly can they further scam outside of KU? Their sales will never equal what they were getting with KU page reads and book stuffing. At some point, we have to choose our battles. And a relentless hunting down of someone who has already been pretty seriously punished seems a little vendetta like to me. Quite frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable and feels like borderline cyberstalking.


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my battle is simply for Amazon to better police their own policies and to hand out more consistent punishments for violating its policies. Amazon has the tools needed to "hunt down" folk republishing in their store after their accounts are banned. You'll note my suggestions in the OP were around Amazon taking responsibility for policing its store, not us.

As for the example account I used in the OP, until I ran across their posted admission -- which was reposted in a couple of other groups, otherwise I wouldn't have seen it because, ironically, I am banned from the FB group where it originally appeared because I called out illegal (as in against federal law) activity there -- I had never heard of this author. I don't know them or their books. I don't know why they were banned.

This is a very good example of bringing up the behavior to discuss without naming names, under KB's newish guidance. A lot of speculation here has been that the author was originally in KU. I have not even tried to discover if the author was in KU because, frankly, in this case, IMO, it doesn't matter. I have no idea if the transgression(s) was KU-related or not. Amazon saw fit to terminate the account, as well as the spouse's account when the author tried to publish banned books under it, rather than simply not allowing them to put their books into Select. Terminating an account, rather than temporarily suspending one or simply disallowing the offending author/publisher's books back into KU, is actually pretty rare.

FWIW, the books are still up on Amazon. D2D will likely need to do due diligence to ensure the author and their books are banned. I don't know what that due diligence will consist of, beyond what evidence I provided, which is why I would hope Amazon will confirm or deny that their account was terminated.

BUT (again IMO), Amazon cannot remain a reactive party in this. They need to be proactive and police their store. They know who've they banned and the books by those authors that were published when they were banned. It's like a database of fingerprints -- when only Amazon has the tools to match up fingerprints, they can't expect the van driver delivering a truckload of goods, only some of which are stolen, to know which goods are stolen or who loaded in the stolen goods.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seriously, one good thing that I think will come of this, especially for newer writers, is that the waters won't be so muddied anymore about what the romance audience actually wants. I could see somebody earnestly following the advice to "research the bestsellers and see what's trending," writing a bunch of short, dumbed-down books about "Baby for the Mountain Man" and "Taken by the Motorcycle Boss," then scratching their head when they fell flat on their face. Now, the contemporary romance top 100 looks more like what non-incentivized humans are actually reading, and I count that as a win for authors and readers alike. I hope it will help give romance readers more confidence in the Amazon store again, particularly the KU part of it.


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## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Seriously, one good thing that I think will come of this, especially for newer writers, is that the waters won't be so muddied anymore about what the romance audience actually wants. I could see somebody earnestly following the advice to "research the bestsellers and see what's trending," writing a bunch of short, dumbed-down books about "Baby for the Mountain Man" and "Taken by the Motorcycle Boss," then scratching their head when they fell flat on their face. Now, the contemporary romance top 100 looks more like what non-incentivized humans are actually reading, and I count that as a win for authors and readers alike. I hope it will help give romance readers more confidence in the Amazon store again, particularly the KU part of it.


From a writer's or publisher's point of view, this statement is of utmost importance.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I've edited a post to remove a bit that we deemed political.  As most know, political references or commentary are not allowed here, as they rarely go well...  PM me if you have any questions.

Thanks for understanding.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

People who are willing to scam -- or overlook / excuse others who scam -- can't understand honest people who don't scam and who get angered at the cheating they see and the harm it does.

Because they can't understand honest anger at cheating, they imagine it is all about jealousy. To them, it's only a matter of getting caught -- not ethics. It's only about success and not about how you get that success.

That's simply _wrong_. It has nothing to do with jealousy.

I _admire_ authors who are more successful than I am. Seriously. I try to understand what made them successful and try to emulate them. I hold them out as role models and try to learn from their success.

Their success motivates me. I see that they do it really well and I want to do it really well, too. Honestly. Ethically.

Scammers?

I abhor them. I think they are why we can't have nice things. Their success is not admirable because it's based on cheating and breaking rules. It's not _real_ success. It's smoke and mirrors. I don't want to be a scam-based success. I want to be a _true_ success, which means I write books that actual people actually read and actually love and so keep buying my books.

I don't want botted page reads and scam borrows; I don't want purchased reviews and gamed rank.

So no.

Not jealousy.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

BGArcher said:


> Okay, but look at somebody like a certain guy that started a lot of this backlash with his illegal giveaway. Yes, he used shady tactics to make even more money. That being said, he still wrote books his audience loved. So in theory, if he stopped pushing illegal giveaways (and the creepy stuff on facebook that sprang up) should he be allowed to sell again? Should he never be able to sell books again?
> 
> _Edited to remove political comment. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


If you get caught cheating in a casino or shoplifting from a store you're not allowed back inside again, because they know if you do it once you're highly likely to do it again. Same if you get caught using performance enhancing drugs in sports. And given that certain someone was the ringleader of a group that was engaged in far, far more black hat activity than just illegal giveaways, no, none of them should be allowed back. They can crawl back to their black hat internet marketer hangouts and find some other system to scam.

These people were engaged in activities that impacted a whole lot of innocent people. What they were doing was hot harmless. Thank them for rank-stripping and the review purges and the page reads taken away with the account suspensions associated with all of that. Thank them for the spike in ad spend costs on AMS and FB, and the lowered visibility for everyone who couldn't come close to matching that kind of spend. Remember they were paying for that with money that they gamed from KU using reader farms and bots and click-to-the-end links in 3000 KENPC stuffed books. Thank them for the legit authors who missed out on All Stars bonuses that they deserved because these people got them instead through cheating. Thank them for getting a whole lot of accounts placed under extra scrutiny simply through association from newsletter swaps and inclusion in the same boxed sets.

Given the damage that they've done does anyone seriously think they should be able to come back and try again? Even if *we* can't think of ways for them to game the system coming in through a distributor and without access to KU, that doesn't mean that *they* haven't come up with ways. Scammers are going to scam. It's what they do.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

They're already cheating again because they're trying to get back in via the back door.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

The bank across the street was robbed, but it wasn't my bank, so who cares?

An old person two blocks over was mugged, beaten and left on the street, but it wasn't me, so who cares?

Some yahoos carjacked a young mother, but it wasn't me, so who cares?

My coworker's kid was kidnapped and murdered, but it wasn't my kid, so who cares?

The grocery store down the street had to close because of shoplifting, but I didn't shop there, so who cares?

The owner of the local nursing home was accused of neglect and scamming Medicare, but I don't live there, so who cares?

The fire department had to cut back on personnel and equipment, but my house isn't burning down, so who cares?

The local school can't educate children to a reasonable level of competency, but I don't have kids, so who cares?

This kind of attitude, that "it doesn't affect me, so it's not worth fixing", is what makes society fail. Without getting into political matters (because no side is right), it does affect us. Everything affects all members of society, whether any one person can see it or not.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

The discussion is getting a bit personal.  Let's stop ascribing feelings, motives and attributes to each other and discuss issues and the topic.

Y'all have been warned.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I for one am A-okay with D2D clarifying their policy.  They're an aggregator, not a back door.  By screwing with their systems to try to get into a place that has specifically shown you the door, you put them in jeopardy as well as everyone legit who uses them.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Seriously, one good thing that I think will come of this, especially for newer writers, is that the waters won't be so muddied anymore about what the romance audience actually wants. I could see somebody earnestly following the advice to "research the bestsellers and see what's trending," writing a bunch of short, dumbed-down books about "Baby for the Mountain Man" and "Taken by the Motorcycle Boss," then scratching their head when they fell flat on their face. Now, the contemporary romance top 100 looks more like what non-incentivized humans are actually reading, and I count that as a win for authors and readers alike. I hope it will help give romance readers more confidence in the Amazon store again, particularly the KU part of it.


YES. +1


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Seriously, one good thing that I think will come of this, especially for newer writers, is that the waters won't be so muddied anymore about what the romance audience actually wants. I could see somebody earnestly following the advice to "research the bestsellers and see what's trending," writing a bunch of short, dumbed-down books about "Baby for the Mountain Man" and "Taken by the Motorcycle Boss," then scratching their head when they fell flat on their face. Now, the contemporary romance top 100 looks more like what non-incentivized humans are actually reading, and I count that as a win for authors and readers alike. I hope it will help give romance readers more confidence in the Amazon store again, particularly the KU part of it.


Yes, this was one of my primary complaints about the scammers topping the charts. If the page reads, borrows and sales were incentivized, and the reviews purchased, the data is corrupted. The bestseller ranks are not reflecting what readers actually want to read and actually love. Hence, those of us who do market research are operating based on false assumptions.

I read books the top 100 in my particular categories to see what the market was buying but realized that if that was it, I didn't want to write it. I saw the business processes of the big sellers and decided if that was what it took to hit the top 100, I didn't want to do it.

Now that they're gone, HOPEFULLY, the bestseller ranks will better reflect what actual readers actually want to buy and actually loved.

It's a win-win for readers as well as authors.


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