# Space Opera - What do you love, hate and recomend?



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

I've been reading Space Opera in one form or another, well since I started reading. I made the leap to Kindle in 2013, somewhat belatedly, and then discovered what Space Opera really was.

Tell me what you love.

Tell me what you hate.

Tell what you recommend, so I have something new to read tomorrow.

I love anything to do with Space, space combat, and living in space. So the 'Galaxy Unknown' series is something I re-read periodically. So is the 'Quarter Share' series. The first is big on major threats to mankind. The latter is about every day life on a trading ship. Big difference, but both series do it for me.

I hate it when books do something stupid, or a whole series of stupid. There was one series where the first book was really good, but mid-way through the second, the characters were suddenly dumb and dumber in space, all to provide sufficient tension and casualties. I put it down and haven't picked it up again, even though the series is now 4 books long. If the characters dont hold to what their past is supposed to be, I cant keep reading.

I have a pretty good 'suspension of disbelief', but I hate it when a book simply defies logic. I don't mind made up technology, but it has to actually work. Some books get it right, others don't. The Night's Dawn series was an example of great new technology that all worked.

I recommend the above mentioned series. 
http://www.amazon.com/Galaxy-Book-1-ebook/dp/B001CUQE98
http://www.amazon.com/Quarter-Share-Traders-Golden-Clipper-ebook/dp/B00AMO7VM4
http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Dysfunction-Nights-Dawn-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B00AQ93B7O


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Frankly, I'm not entirely clear on what is or is not "space opera", but I've seen Iain M. Banks' "Culture" novels called that, and really liked many of them, with _Excession_ probably being my favorite.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

NogDog said:


> Frankly, I'm not entirely clear on what is or is not "space opera"


I'm not either, but here's info on the origination of the term:

_The term "space opera" was coined in 1941 by fan writer (and later author) Wilson Tucker, in a fanzine article, as a pejorative term. At the time, serial radio dramas in the US had become popularly known as soap operas because many were sponsored by soap manufacturers. Tucker defined space opera as the SF equivalent: a "hacky, grinding, stinking, outworn, spaceship yarn".
_

A more contemporary definition would be:

_Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that often emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in outer space, usually involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, weapons, and other technology._

I'm not really seeing the _Culture_ series as space opera, or the _Solar Clipper_ series.

Books I think I would include are:

1. The Honor Harrington series
2. Any of David Drake's books
3. Jack Campbell's _Lost Fleet _series
4. Anything by E. E. Smith
5. Elizabeth Moon's _Vatta's War_ series
6. Most of Edmund Hamilton's work
7. Much of Timothy Zahn's SF work

All of the above I've read and enjoyed, even though I got burned out on the first three and haven't read any of them in years.

Mike


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

jmiked said:


> 5. Elizabeth Moon's _Vatta's War_ series
> 7. Much of Timothy Zahn's SF work


Thanks for the definition. I tend to agree, but my own taste is wider, encompassing anything to do with space.

These two I definitely agree with. The Vatta series is a favourite of mine although she almost lost me when she killed most of the secondary characters just to set something else up. It could have been done a better way imo. I hate it when people are killed in books, for the most frivolous of reasons.

I haven't read a Zhan novel I didn't like. But do you include his Star Wars novels in space Opera? Or is Star Wars the biggest Space Opera of them all?


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I like the Liaden series by Lee and Miller
Jmiked I would  classify Drake and Campbell and Honor Harrington as military SF so i guess I'm a little confused or there is a lot of overlap


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Some Space Opera/Mil SF that I really liked:

To Honor You Call Us (Man of War, #1) by Honsinger, H. Paul 

Take the Star Road (The Maxwell Saga, #1) by Grant, Peter

A Talent for War (Alex Benedict, #1)  by McDevitt, Jack

The Engines of God (The Academy #1) by Jack McDevitt

With the Lightnings (Lt. Leary / RCN #1) by David Drake

Earth Strike (Star Carrier, #1)  by Ian Douglas


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Chad Winters said:


> Jmiked I would classify Drake and Campbell and Honor Harrington as military SF so i guess I'm a little confused or there is a lot of overlap


There is a lot of overlap. Typically, when space opera brings in major threats, so to does it have a military presence. Sort of hard to avoid it.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Here's the problem with discussing genres (or any other category of things that get labeled): it is, at it's root, arbitrary. I can take characteristics a, b, and c, and call it Space Opera. The next person that comes along may take characteristics b, c, and d and call it Space Opera. Who's right? There isn't any objective set of characteristics that will encompass every case. It's all arbitrary and the way to discuss it is to define your terms first. Even then you are doomed to frustration because you can't ever list _all_ the characteristics of something.

And yes, I would call _Star Wars_ Space Opera. I'd also call it Sci-Fi, as opposed to Science Fiction. But that's another topic. 

Mike


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I do so love Space Opera, not so much opera though. lol


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Real hard military SF want stories that would require you to keep databases and spreadsheets about your fleets and ship movements, because if you mess up, oh boy. As well as get every technical detail and rank structures and stuff perfect or you will hear from them!

lol


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

geronl said:


> Real hard military SF want stories that would require you to keep databases and spreadsheets about your fleets and ship movements, because if you mess up, oh boy. As well as get every technical detail and rank structures and stuff perfect or you will hear from them!


I don't doubt that. I've had to do quite a few google lookups recently getting ranks straight. I remembered a lot from my days as a war junkie, but seeing them laid out neatly is better than memory.

I often wondered while reading some series, how the authors kept all the timing straight. Now I know. A huge pile of notes, and a running set of eta's just under the current chapter.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Steven Hardesty said:


> My favorite is Keith Laumer, who wrote the wackiest space opera in his Retief tales.


Oh, yeah. How could I have forgotten Keith Laumer's work? I'd definitely call much of it space opera. I'll have to go see what's available as an ebook. The Retief stories are classic.

Mike


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Classic Space Opera for me is The Helmsman series by Bill Baldwin, now available on Kindle after a long time out of print



Editorial Reviews

Review

"... The series should reach best selling status once again. ...The battle action is tremendous and the characters well defined." -- Midwest Book Review

"A fun tale.... There's a nice, understated romance that Rafael Sabatini would have been proud of." -- Henry L Lazarus, Philadelphia Weekly Press/University City Review

"What fun reading. I thoroughly enjoyed the characters, relationships and the battles." -- Marsha Barker, Northeast Texas Library System

About the Author

Bill Baldwin is the author of the bestselling Helmsman series and Canby's Legion. He is a graduate of The Mercersburg Academy and the University of Pittsburgh, where he earned a B.A. in Journalism and a Master of Letters degree. He served as a Lieutenant at the U.S. Air Force Missile Test Center, Foreign Technology Division, Cape Canaveral, Florida, supporting Project Mercury as Chief of the Reports Division. Later, Baldwin served as a contractor for the NASA Manned Spacecraft Center.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Steven Hardesty said:


> Yes, how _could_ you forget Keith Laumer


Have you looked around out there and seen how much stuff there is to forget? It's a losing battle. 

Mike


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## James R Wells (May 21, 2015)

jmiked said:


> Books I think I would include are:
> ...
> 4. Anything by E. E. Smith
> ...


E.E. Smith books seem horrendously outdated now but the Lensman Series is still a really worthwhile read as the place where so many classic scifi tropes started. If you find yourself reading a part in one of these books and thinking "oh boy, I have read a version of this idea a thousand times", it might be because a thousand authors emulated his work.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

I've been known to cross the genre border for Bolos.   Read the David Weber version, then the John Ringo version, and then back tracked to originals by Kieth Laumer. And then read them in order. Took a few years.   I've always been drawn to big kick *ss machines that can give any enemy the smackdown required. But what I really liked was that they had heart, too.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Reminder: we're in the book CORNER -- it's not appropriate to suggest your own stuff in anyway.  Posts have been edited/removed. Thanks.


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## Jim Beard (Feb 14, 2014)

Anything by Van Allen Plexico: http://www.amazon.com/Van-Allen-Plexico/e/B002QISYCA/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1435936973&sr=8-1

Try BARANAK or LUCIAN.

Jim


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

What? No mention yet of Asimov's _Foundation_ trilogy?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Tony Richards said:


> What? No mention yet of Asimov's _Foundation_ trilogy?


I didn't mention it, as I do not consider it "space opera".


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CJ Cherryh - The Chanur series is definitely space opera. Pournelle and Niven. Van Vogt and Heinlein. You didn't mention what you've already read.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

My favorites, at least for what I consider to be space opera:

A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge
Chasm City by Alistair Reynolds
The Succession duology by Scott Westerfeld
Old Man's War series by John Scalzi
The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey
Th Culture series by Iain Banks
The Mote in God's Eye by Niven and Pournelle
Gateway by Frederik Pohl

I'm sure I'm forgetting some and of course there are some great ones I have yet to get around to...


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Ted Cross said:


> The Mote in God's Eye by Niven and Pournelle


Did you read the sequel?


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Steven Hardesty said:


> ... is the product of Laumer's own brief, unhappy career in the U.S. Foreign Service. In translating that bitter experience into space opera, Laumer produced a multi-level comedy: beneath the broad surface satire lies a pointed and bitter comedy about the madness of a society that promotes content-free ambition. Laumer and I shared an embassy job in Burma, tho' he was there 10 years before. We traded some letters about teak. I spent the rest of my own career with Retief as my hero.


Interesting. I'm another career FS, though thankfully on the happy side. I have a good buddy currently in Burma.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> Did you read the sequel?


No. Is it good? I have so many books on my shelves to get around to! I liked Ringworld okay, though not nearly as much as Mote or Lucifer's Hammer.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Ted Cross said:


> No. Is it good? I have so many books on my shelves to get around to! I liked Ringworld okay, though not nearly as much as Mote or Lucifer's Hammer.


On the one hand, it's not the same, as it was written some 20 years later, and its not centered on the same characters, although most of them are in it.

On the other hand, it looks at the Mote system a totally different way.

On the gripping hand however, it is as good a read as the original.

I'd recommend you read it, at least once.


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## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> On the one hand, it's not the same, as it was written some 20 years later, and its not centered on the same characters, although most of them are in it.
> 
> On the other hand, it looks at the Mote system a totally different way.
> 
> ...


I probably have it on my shelves. I'll have to look it up. Thanks!


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

The Moat around Murcheson's Eye.

Published 1992.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

TimothyEllis said:


> Did you read the sequel?


I thought it was okay (_The Gripping Hand_, IIRC?), but not nearly as good as "Mote".


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

start here:



(considered "Hard" science fiction, definitely what I'd consider a "space opera," and deals with a lot of technology vs. theology (ie: AI searching for God but I can't really give any more of it away))

Also, 4 book series

Hyperion
Fall of Hyperion
Endymion
Rise of Endymion

Great stuff, the last 2 books especially if you are into Catholicism (kind of like a super high tech scifi Dan Brown)


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

AngryGames said:


> ...
> (considered "Hard" science fiction, definitely what I'd consider a "space opera," and deals with a lot of technology vs. theology (ie: AI searching for God but I can't really give any more of it away))
> ...


Well...typically (for something that is, admittedly, rather vague) "space opera" is usually less about hard science and deep thought than it is about some combination of romance, melodrama, and action that happens to take place in outer space (or at least in a future where space travel is common). In fact, it originated as a pejorative term for the sort of pulp SF that literary critics would be especially inclined to dismiss out of hand. I.e., it's "opera" in the same vein as "soap opera" and "horse opera".


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## taiweiland (Oct 16, 2014)

I've always thought one of the requirements of space opera is encountering new cultures, worlds and beings. 

I love Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, but am not sure if it's really space opera since it has fantasy-ish elements. I read mostly Star Trek novels to get my fix (haha), but I love love love JAMES SA COREY'S The Expanse series. Ironically, not because of the plot - because I find it quite generic and stuff - but because of the beautiful writing. Am psyched that it's going to be a TV series soon.

I've tried getting into Ian M. Banks' works, but find it tough going. Too hardcore for me, maybe? I like my space opera light and fun. Though I don't mind a bit of darkness as long as it doesn't go into Game of Thrones territory (shudder).

Zahn - love him. I devoured his Star Wars novels.

Novels I really hope to attempt in the future:
Definitely the Liaden universe novels! They look like my kind of space opera.
And one of the 1001 indie books I have found.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

NogDog said:


> Well...typically (for something that is, admittedly, rather vague) "space opera" is usually less about hard science and deep thought than it is about some combination of romance, melodrama, and action that happens to take place in outer space (or at least in a future where space travel is common). In fact, it originated as a pejorative term for the sort of pulp SF that literary critics would be especially inclined to dismiss out of hand. I.e., it's "opera" in the same vein as "soap opera" and "horse opera".


I'll assume you've never read "Hyperion."


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

C. J Cherryh Chanur series is excellent. I read my paperbacks to destruction, bought them again, and wore them out. I listen to them through Audible now... If I could only be allowed to buy an Echo... sigh.

David Weber's Honor Harrington series is great, but it's long winded in later books. I highly recommend the first 6 or so. If they hook your attention, you won't mind following them forever.

I really like John Ringo's Empire of Man (Begins with March Upcountry) It's more about the grunts than spaceships though. Bronze Barbarians!


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## Tommy Muncie (Dec 8, 2014)

Hi Timothy,

Well well, another Hamilton fan! I loved the Night's Dawn, despite its colossal amounts of padding. He's the author I credit with inspiring me to take a risk on longer than average books (although not quite as long as his!) 

When I went to one of his signings I asked him if he was ever concerned that he wouldn't get it published or sold because of it's length. As part of the answer he talked about how there were additional plots and scenes that got removed. If I remember rightly, there's about another 300k of cut material locked away in his computer somewhere. I'd love to see it even though the books were already too long IMHO. The Naked God should be up there with Infinite Jest and Atlas Shrugged for books your deserve a medal for having completed, regardless of quality!

I'd recommend the Commonwealth Saga and the Void Trilogy as well. By the time you get to void, you'll see his writing is more economical although recognisably still his. No-one could go wrong with him when teaching a sci-fi class on info-dumps, that's for sure.

I'm not sure it's categorized under Space Opera, but Stephen Baxter's Xeelee books certainly involved a fair amount of space travel between worlds and some pretty complex science explanations that are quite challenging to follow if like me you're not academic with science in any way.

And I love Hyperion. The poster who recommended that did you a favour if you haven't already read it. I've taken to buying it as a birthday present for friends who like reading sci-fi.


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## scifi365 (Sep 12, 2014)

Hyperion is, as others have intimated, a work of genius. I personally wouldn't call it 'Space Opera' but who cares. It's still brilliant.

In the Hamilton/Reynolds vein, we've just read Alex Lamb's 'Roboteer', which is the kind of contemporary SF (epic world building, plenty of action, lots of tech and some hard science fiction) that everyone would probably like. It's in the Scifi365.net mailer today, but here's a link to Amazon anyway.

Roboteer by Alex Lamb


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I just joined a Space Opera Writers page on Facebook. lol


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

geronl said:


> I just joined a Space Opera Writers page on Facebook. lol


Link please


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## geronl (May 7, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Link please


Promotion is not really allowed there though

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Spaceoperawriters/


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Thanks. I'll see what its doing and if I fit or not.


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## Brian Niemeier (Jul 20, 2015)

Thanks for the recommendations.

"Tell me what you love." Well-crafted SF, especially space opera, that explores intriguing Big Ideas while setting the entertainment bar high.

"Tell me what you hate." Idiot plots, PSAs masquerading as entertainment.

"Tell what you recommend..." The Count to Eschaton Sequence by John C. Wright, Old Man's War by John Scalzi, The Wreck of the River of Stars by Mike Flynn.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Brian Niemeier said:


> PSAs masquerading as entertainment.


PSA?


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Public Service Announcement


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Chad Winters said:


> Public Service Announcement


Example?


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

TimothyEllis said:


> Example?


Typically an author being heavy-handed about pushing some social, political, and/or religious belief/agenda -- which, of course, is least palatable when it's in opposition to the reader's beliefs. 

Some people feel that way about Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_, though I felt when I read it that it was more a what-if scenario to make you think, with perhaps a soupcon of satire to it.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

ok now i have to ask what a soupcon is.....


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Chad Winters said:


> ok now i have to ask what a soupcon is.....


smidgen 

very small.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Chad Winters said:


> ok now i have to ask what a soupcon is.....


lmgtfy.com/?q=soupcon


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

How strange. The forum software won't let me use a cedilla (that's the little tail on the bottom of the letter "c" in soupcon).

Now I can't be pedantic.  


Mike


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## scifi365 (Sep 12, 2014)

I'd just attempted the same pedantry with the same results. That sucks.


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## JVRudnick (Sep 12, 2014)

Just wanted to add that a "space opera" can be just that...i.e. like a soap opera but in the future but with the same characters with their own foibles too...

_sorry -- no self promotion in the book corner_


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

NogDog said:


> lmgtfy.com/?q=soupcon


Thanks, I knew I could have googled it, but it seemed more organic to the conversation to ask. Imagine a group of people in conversation but instead of an ebb and flow of conversation, questions and answers people just spend the whole time googling on their phones.....wait too late...

Still, interesting that I have never read or heard that term before which is fairly rare for me. Google did not say it was regional though...


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Then only place I've seen it used before is a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Love: C.J. Cherryh, Lois McMaster Bujold, Alastair Reynolds
Hate: anything that's so outdated that it wakes up my normally very much dormant inner feminist. Basically, when it describes a hero entering an office and getting the hots for the big-boobed secretary (and it's beyond amazing how many "classic" SF books have a scene like that), the book's got to be VERY good or I'm outta there.


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## shaunduke (Feb 2, 2015)

My favorite space opera series is Tobias S. Buckell's Xenowealth Saga.  Technically, the first book, Crystal Rain, is more steampunk than space opera, but it is the first book in the series.  Once you get to Ragamuffin, though, it's rip-roaring craziness in space!

Other than that, I'm partial to Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice and The Chanur Saga by C.J. Cherryh.

In terms of what I hate:

Nothing specific, but I do tend to avoid space opera that is overly reliant on technical jargon or "as you know Bob" syndrome.  I also almost exclusively avoid anything that is too basic in terms of its writing style (too "commercial," perhaps).  The closer someone writers to James Patterson, the less likely I'll be able to read it without cringing.


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