# Letter to Amazon re '7th Device' Issue



## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

I sent the following to Amazon Customer Service yesterday. I understand that Amazon is trying to 'get this right', but sometimes feel like the right hand isn't talking to the left. I'm also wondering on what mandates are making it down to the software development group.
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Before I begin, note that I own a Kindle 1 and Kindle 2 and at this time had planned on keeping up with major hardware updates. I have plenty of family members who are readers and would appreciate the use of my pre-owned Kindles as I purchase new ones.

With that fact in mind, I would like clarification on book ownership. I recently called to ask how I remove a book from my Archives and was told I could not as I own the book and it would always be available to my account. I then read the policy about reaching the 6 device limit and the fact that even if a Kindle is deregistered from my account, any books on it would be associated to that Kindle. Please offer clarification on the policy statement from Customer Service "Kindle Book Licensing Restrictions-The licenses associated with most books and other non-subscription content purchased from the Kindle Store allow you to download and view each item for your personal use on up to six Kindles registered to your Amazon.com account. If you deregister a Kindle for whatever reason, the licenses for any books downloaded to that Kindle remain linked with the device.", particularly with the statement "your personal use on up to six Kindles registered to your Amazon.com account".

If a device is no longer registered to my account or gets registered to another user's account, how can that content license still be associated to MY account when the Kindle is not? A new owner cannot access the content from their account and if content licenses travel with the Kindles, how does that reconcile with content licensing being registered to my Amazon.com account? The content license for that item is now out in the ether with no owner according to my understanding of your current policy.

In the case of my purchasing a 7th Kindle and disposing of the 1st, that would mean that I have a content license that is not available to me.

I raise this issue because I frequently go back and re-read book purchases from 10 or more years in the past and unless something drastic happens, I see myself enjoying my current and future Kindles far into the future. So before I invest more time and money rebuilding my book library in electronic format, I need clarification on your policy.

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It seems to me that not much thinking should be involved with fixing this. You have to re-register a Kindle on the device itself, it cannot be done from the website; the first time you do so, the initial sync should be able to wipe out any previous Amazon purchases from the device while leaving other content. Am I missing something here?

Customer Service is supposed to respond to all inquiries within about 12 hours, so we'll see what I'll have in my Inbox in the morning. I plan to be patient; the telephone Customer Service is exemplary, but I find the email CS a little lacking. There seem to be a lot of boilerplate emails initially sent that require nastygram clarification followups.

My hope is to get the issue nailed down without the ambiguity that exists now. Wish me luck!


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

thank you -- you put my thoughts into perfect form  .... 

I am thinking that with the addition of being able to put Kindle books on your iPhone and iTouch that Amazon will have to address this sooner rather than later since many people replace or update those items quite frequently. 

As I have said before I have many books on my Kindle including ones that I have in DTB form and have repurchased for my Kindle - if this is true and it doesn't change - then I feel that I am only leasing the books (at a high rate) rather than purchasing them.  Not a fan of that idea at all.


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

That's good. Their policy isn't too clear on this specific issue.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

What's even more confusing about the policy is that Amazon has the power to remotely remove a book from your Kindle when it syncs.  That leaves me wondering if the problem is that they don't want to expend resources on the issue rather than it being that they can't.


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## Sparkplug (Feb 13, 2009)

Jesslyn said:


> What's even more confusing about the policy is that Amazon has the power to remotely remove a book from your Kindle when it syncs. That leaves me wondering if the problem is that they don't want to expend resources on the issue rather than it being that they can't.


Maybe in the short run that may work, but they may soon find themselves scrambling as people add/replace iPhones & iTouches to their account as well as replacing and adding Kindles to their household. Amazon is going to have to address this issue, it's just a matter of if they address the issue now while the issue only affects a small minority of their customers, or later when a large percentage of their customers are contacting customer service about this issue.


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## webhill (Feb 12, 2009)

Jesslyn said:


> Customer Service is supposed to respond to all inquiries within about 12 hours, so we'll see what I'll have in my Inbox in the morning. I plan to be patient; the telephone Customer Service is exemplary, but I find the email CS a little lacking. There seem to be a lot of boilerplate emails initially sent that require nastygram clarification followups.


I'd be surprised if they address this at all. When I have emailed CS about a confusing topic such as this, they've simply ignored it. Then the one time I got really frustrated and demanded non-form-letter clarification of something less confusing but that they'd responded to with serial form letters, they sent me that horrible email about how my problem actually paled in comparison to the problems of homeless people dying in the street, child abuse, and arctic whale poaching. I am SO unhappy with the email CS from amazon it's not even funny. The phone sector is much much MUCH better.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I know that reading this policy made it very clear to me that I would not be sharing my Kindle account with anyone. Well, maybe my Fiance if he ever wanted a Kindle. And I suppose my parents.

I do wonder what some of the folks who sold their K1's with books on them will do now? The old Kindle still has the book license.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

webhill said:


> I'd be surprised if they address this at all. When I have emailed CS about a confusing topic such as this, they've simply ignored it. Then the one time I got really frustrated and demanded non-form-letter clarification of something less confusing but that they'd responded to with serial form letters, they sent me that horrible email about how my problem actually paled in comparison to the problems of homeless people dying in the street, child abuse, and arctic whale poaching. I am SO unhappy with the email CS from amazon it's not even funny. The phone sector is much much MUCH better.


In the past when I've been ignored, I send a 2nd (3rd, 4th) request nastygram that evenutally gets addressed. 4th is probably too much because I usually call after #3 and have an irritated customer conversation 



Sparkplug said:


> Maybe in the short run that may work, but they may soon find themselves scrambling as people add/replace iPhones & iTouches to their account as well as replacing and adding Kindles to their household. Amazon is going to have to address this issue, it's just a matter of if they address the issue now while the issue only affects a small minority of their customers, or later when a large percentage of their customers are contacting customer service about this issue.


They are going to have to address this now or they'll end up doing major backend work a couple of years from now. I would imagine that any database conversions they have to deal are growing everyday that passes.


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

I feel the frustration.  Service isn't of the highest quality.


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## starryskyz (Nov 7, 2008)

Thx for posting this!  I had gotten conflicting answers.  One customer service rep on phone told me once I deregistered, the liscense gets added back to my account (I was sent a replacement K2).  However, earlier, I had emailed amazon and they gave me a response which is not really helpful...all it said was we are aware of the issue and if I have issues downloading a book contact customer service.


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## L.Canton (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm glad you wrote the letter, and it sums up my own feelings quite well to boot. Having said that, I think Amazon is a pretty solid company, and it's certainly in their best interest to get matters like this remedied. They may not always be the most organized, but I'm sure they'll get it taken care of.


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## starryskyz (Nov 7, 2008)

In hindsight, I guess this could be another reason why they removed the SD Card slot...previously could we just store the books on the sd card and take it Kindle from Kindle as long as it's registered to us?  (I never used that feature...)


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## jimbellow (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm tired of paying for things and losing them.. like Itunes... Itunes should be able to keep a record and know I bought that song 5 years ago and should have full rights to download it again.


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## amanda924 (Mar 9, 2009)

rho said:


> thank you -- you put my thoughts into perfect form ....
> 
> I am thinking that with the addition of being able to put Kindle books on your iPhone and iTouch that Amazon will have to address this sooner rather than later since many people replace or update those items quite frequently.
> 
> As I have said before I have many books on my Kindle including ones that I have in DTB form and have repurchased for my Kindle - if this is true and it doesn't change - *then I feel that I am only leasing the books (at a high rate) rather than purchasing them. Not a fan of that idea at all. *


It's like you took the words right outta my mouth. How many more versions of Kindle or how many times might I upgrade my phone or Ipod in the next oh, 10 years? Even though I just purchased my first Kindle, I will still definitely replace items enough to go through more than 6 licenses within the next decade...I would wager nearly anything on it. And that's just ME....without even entertaining the possibility of sharing my library (account) with my hubby or my daughter.

I definitely don't like feeling as though I'm only leasing the books I'm purchasing, but that's *exactly* what it's feeling like.  I can't wait to hear the outcome...


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

Update on the issue from my Blog:
A couple of days ago, I blogged about emailing Customer Service on the six device limit and what to do when I reach the 7th Kindle device.  Just so you know, I am up to 3 devices, a Kindle 1, a Kindle 2 and an iPhone.  I'll be at 5 with one more iteration of each, so I'm a little worried.

Well, of course, Amazon did not get back to me even after two additional email follow-ups, so I contacted them today; I had another question to ask about the iPhone sync so was looking to kill two birds with one stone.  I spoke to a nice man named Maurice.

Book Licenses - 6 Device limit

Basically, I was told that this limit was put into place because of potential book club abuse.  I guess since they couldn't get away with telling you what you can and cannot do with a book you purchased, they have to limit the number of devices that you can put it on.  I can understand the sentiment and appreciate their dilemma, but think that their execution sucks big-time.  Amazon is taking the lazy route.  

I don't think many average Kindle owners have a problem with the 6 devices at one time limit.  We have a problem with the license being forever tied to a device that we a)sold to someone who is using a different Amazon account, b)threw away because of age, etc. or c)have replaced with the newest model.  Like I said earlier, I have been a Kindle owner for one measly year have 3 devices by Amazon's count and could be at 5 devices by this time next year.  When I mentioned that to Maurice, he quickly assured me that there was no date for the Kindle 3, to which I reminded him of the statements by Amazon about (less than?) 6 months ago that there was no date for Kindle 2; that doesn't even take into account the possiblity of a new iPhone in the near future. Riiiiiight....

I was assured that all Amazon has to do is "look at the logs" to figure out if someone was abusing their licensing and that when I got to my 7th device, a phone call would be able clear things up and I would be able to pull my books down to that 7th device.  Okay, but what makes them think I want to go thru a long list of  my books with some Customer Service guy to have them manually released?  Amazon was quick enough to automate the deletion of a book that I returned and received a refund on--why would it be hard to do so on a device I de-register?

I am a little insulted by the policy.  As it stands right now, I can't delete any book that is in my purchase list (currently at 123 books), but I only own them up to six times.  So even if I read and delete, keeping only one book at a time on any Kindle/iPhone pair, two licenses go up in smoke.  This is a prime case for the Kindle hack that allows purchasing of non-Amazon content--at least I OWN those for any device I want to upload them to.

So there's the answer; its not very satisfying.    

I have gotten so tired of this trend to legislate against the few rule-breakers while inconveniencing the majority--and not just with Amazon.

Oh--the iPhone sync issue?  I'll write about that later.  One problem at a time.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Worse yet, from luv's experience it sounds like you have to keep track of what books you have on what device. And then they have to hand delete the license. I have a sneaking suspicion that the policy will change when they have a flood of people calling in to have hundreds of books deleted from their K1 or K2 or old IPhone and ITouch.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

Yeah--didn't bother me until I realized that a new iPhone and new Kindle (3?) will bring me to 5.  That means no reference book purchases for me!


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

Not that it makes me feel any better but I think that it refers to books that have been put on 6 actual devices - you have to actually send a book that was on Kindle 1 for example to Kindle 2 or to (in my case) my iTouch.  But it would mean we would have to keep track of what books were where (since I can't see anywhere that shows which is where) to know if you had used up your 6 licenses on that particular book. 

I don't see why it can't be set up that if you de-register a device that it frees up whatever books are on that device for another license.  I'm not a computer type person but I can't imagine that would be impossible to set up -- after all if you sell your Kindle and de-register it the person who buys it doesn't have access to your account - and they can delete books from your Kindle if you return it so it should be able to be done that when it is de-registered all books on that particular device are deleted from that device but not your digital library. 

I hope that made sense - very tired tonight so forgive me if it is clear as mud.


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## Cammie (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm one person and I guess I've used up four licenses for each of my books (broken deregistered K1, replacement K1, spare K1 and an iphone).  I interpreted Amazon's policy regarding book licenses to refer to "any six devices at one time registered to my account" rather than "a total of 6 licenses per book period."  I used my 1st K1 for two months before it broke.  I've owned the spare K1 for approximately one month.  I registered it to my account and transferred book content to test functionality since I bought the device used.  I registered my iphone and transferred book content just to try the new functionality.  I have no intention of reading books on my iphone.

I too contacted CS about this issue. They deregistered the spare K1 and the iphone (something I could have done myself) but said, that indeed, I only had 2 licenses left of each book I purchased from Amazon.  I did get my account flagged and a written email confirming that Amazon would do a book-by-book transfer to any device I registered after the six license limitation has been reached.......it will require me to call CS for each time I add a new device.

I do think Amazon electronic book customers should be warned and all electronic books on the Amazon site should clearly state that you are only purchasing the right to transfer a book six times.  I really do feel that Kindle purchasers and Amazon electronic book purchasers have been or are being mislead. For many, this issue has not come to fruition yet.  When it does, I would not be surprised if class action consumer lawsuits end up being filed against Amazon.  The problem will grow in magnitude the longer Amazon delays in resolving this issue fairly and definitively.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

I agree with everyone that this policy seems very unfair in its present configuration.  I haven't been particularly worried about it because I don't reread too many books.  I have KK, DH has K2 and there are only about half a dozen books we have on both Ks, but the CS rep I talked with couldn't even confirm for me whether every book I had before DH got his K2 counts as "2" now because they are on the same account.  He also couldn't tell me whether downloading to the computer and then transferring to a K counts as a third license.  Very frustrating.  If both things are true and we have downloaded most books thru the computer because of lousy WN coverage, then every book is 3 licenses and will only require one upgrade from each of us before we are already at 5  - NOT GOOD!  Guess I will skip the I-phone app completely and think again about buying Kindle copies of DTBs already in my library.


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

I hate to say it, but perhaps issues like this are the reason that e-readers never took off before.  I hope they won't eventually be the downfall of them again.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

I followed up this morning with a phone call to see if 6 devices means a book currently downloaded on 6 devices simultaneously or if it means downloaded 6 times, whether it is currently on one of your Kindles or not.  The latter is my sticking point, the former seems to be related to Amazon's desire to restrict 'book club' malfeasance.  A not very polite CS rep advised me that it is total devices, not simultaneous devices.


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## vermontcathy (Feb 18, 2009)

rho said:


> I don't see why it can't be set up that if you de-register a device that it frees up whatever books are on that device for another license.


I'm certainly not defending Amazon here, but here's why they can't (won't) do as you say. Let's say you have a book club with a dozen people. You could set up an Amazon account, buy the book, register one kindle to the account, download the book, deregister from the account. The book stays on deregistered kindles - it doesn't go away. Then the next person in your club registers, downloads, deregisters, etc. etc. If deregistering freed up the license, then you could do this an infinite number of times.

Also, someone mentioned that maybe that's why they took away the SD card, because you could put the book on the card and take it to another kindle. This isn't true. The book file, when downloaded to a kindle, it somehow modified so it will only work on that one kindle (that's why you have to re-download it to get it on a family member's kindle - you can't transfer the file you already have).

Cathy


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Not to throw gas on the fire - ok maybe a cup full. Per the post below, some publishers have chosen to set the maximum device limit below six on their kbooks and you won't know about those until you hit them.

Does anyone know it the thirty day return policy is base on the ship date or receive date?

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,4565.0.html


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

vermontcathy said:


> I'm certainly not defending Amazon here, but here's why they can't (won't) do as you say. Let's say you have a book club with a dozen people. You could set up an Amazon account, buy the book, register one kindle to the account, download the book, deregister from the account. The book stays on deregistered kindles - it doesn't go away. Then the next person in your club registers, downloads, deregisters, etc. etc. If deregistering freed up the license, then you could do this an infinite number of times.
> 
> Cathy


I understand that the Kindle privileges can be abused in this way and why Amazon has tried to come up with a way to prevent this. It still seems to me that the problem is solved if it is 6 at any time for the account and not the device. If I have six registered devices on my account that is maximum downloads at that time, but if I lose, sell, upgrade, whatever to a 7th device then one of the previous devices would have to be de-registered, it would lose any previous content and I have one new "use" of any of the material on my account. I think a lot of folks thought this was the way it worked and that's why so many were surprised when others were able to sell their K1s to get the K2 and leave the books on them. My opinion is the books should stay with the account up to 6 devices at one time. I hope what I just wrote makes sense - it may be clear as mud.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

crebel said:


> I understand that the Kindle privileges can be abused in this way and why Amazon has tried to come up with a way to prevent this. It still seems to me that the problem is solved if it is 6 at any time for the account and not the device. If I have six registered devices on my account that is maximum downloads at that time, but if I lose, sell, upgrade, whatever to a 7th device then one of the previous devices would have to be de-registered, it would lose any previous content and I have one new "use" of any of the material on my account. I think a lot of folks thought this was the way it worked and that's why so many were surprised when others were able to sell their K1s to get the K2 and leave the books on them. My opinion is the books should stay with the account up to 6 devices at one time. I hope what I just wrote makes sense - it may be clear as mud.


You forget, if you turn WN off or are in a nonWN area Amazon has no way of controlling the content of the Kindle after deregistering so they have decided to force you to jump threw hoops the make it right.


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

vermontcathy said:


> I'm certainly not defending Amazon here, but here's why they can't (won't) do as you say. Let's say you have a book club with a dozen people. You could set up an Amazon account, buy the book, register one kindle to the account, download the book, deregister from the account. The book stays on deregistered kindles - it doesn't go away. Then the next person in your club registers, downloads, deregisters, etc. etc. If deregistering freed up the license, then you could do this an infinite number of times.
> 
> Also, someone mentioned that maybe that's why they took away the SD card, because you could put the book on the card and take it to another kindle. This isn't true. The book file, when downloaded to a kindle, it somehow modified so it will only work on that one kindle (that's why you have to re-download it to get it on a family member's kindle - you can't transfer the file you already have).
> 
> Cathy


so you set it up that you can't register/de-register/register/de-register devices - they are registered on an account and once de-registered they are off that account forever (unless it is something that is discussed with CS and fixed - like done in error or something)

and when you sell or give away an old Kindle that you don't want on your account anymore it has to be de-registered from your account and registered to another account and then that is where it gets its books from ..

I honestly don't see that being that hard to do -


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## vermontcathy (Feb 18, 2009)

crebel said:


> ...but if I lose, sell, upgrade, whatever to a 7th device then one of the previous devices would have to be de-registered, it would lose any previous content and I have one new "use" of any of the material on my account.


This is not true. When you deregister a device, the device DOES NOT lose any previous content. That's what would allow an infinite number of kindles to be reading one book all at the same time. I can see where "infinite" is pretty scary to Amazon. Until/unless Amazon decides to reach out and TAKE content off your kindle when you deregister it from an account, they will probably stick with the 6 limit (although they are willing to help people who call CS with a legitimate problem with it).


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## vermontcathy (Feb 18, 2009)

davem2bits said:


> You forget, if you turn WN off or are in a nonWN area Amazon has no way of controlling the content of the Kindle after deregistering so they have decided to force you to jump threw hoops the make it right.


You don't even have to keep WN off. If you deregister a kindle, it keeps the books that are on it forever. There have been threads about this.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

I guess it was clear as mud, because that it what it was trying to say - you are right, it is not true, it does not work that way currently and uses up my licenses even though a device is no longer on my account.  I do not think that is the way it should be - if a device is deregistered, then the content should disappear from the deregistered device and I should have a new license available for a new device is how I would LIKE it to work.


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## Kristus412 (Nov 22, 2008)

vermontcathy said:


> This is not true. When you deregister a device, the device DOES NOT lose any previous content. That's what would allow an infinite number of kindles to be reading one book all at the same time. I can see where "infinite" is pretty scary to Amazon. Until/unless Amazon decides to reach out and TAKE content off your kindle when you deregister it from an account, they will probably stick with the 6 limit (although they are willing to help people who call CS with a legitimate problem with it).


That makes sense to a point. However, if you sell the Kindle or give it away once it's re registered by the new owner and they go to add more content wouldn't it take off anything not registered to that account. Sort of like if you give away your Ipod it can have all your songs on there but as soon as the new owner hooks up to their computer then all the old content goes away and it replaced with just what is in your new account. So you can have the kindle with all those books you already have on there but the only way to keep them is to never add new books through Amazon. Does that make sense? I figure if Itunes can do it Amazon can figure it out too.


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

crebel said:


> I guess it was clear as mud, because that it what it was trying to say - you are right, it is not true, it does not work that way currently and uses up my licenses even though a device is no longer on my account. I do not think that is the way it should be - if a device is deregistered, then the content should disappear from the deregistered device and I should have a new license available for a new device is how I would LIKE it to work.


and Kristus412 


> That makes sense to a point. However, if you sell the Kindle or give it away once it's re registered by the new owner and they go to add more content wouldn't it take off anything not registered to that account. Sort of like if you give away your Ipod it can have all your songs on there but as soon as the new owner hooks up to their computer then all the old content goes away and it replaced with just what is in your new account. So you can have the kindle with all those books you already have on there but the only way to keep them is to never add new books through Amazon. Does that make sense? I figure if Itunes can do it Amazon can figure it out too.


EXACTLY!!


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Kristus412 said:


> That makes sense to a point. However, if you sell the Kindle or give it away once it's re registered by the new owner and they go to add more content wouldn't it take off anything not registered to that account. Sort of like if you give away your Ipod it can have all your songs on there but as soon as the new owner hooks up to their computer then all the old content goes away and it replaced with just what is in your new account. So you can have the kindle with all those books you already have on there but the only way to keep them is to never add new books through Amazon. Does that make sense? I figure if Itunes can do it Amazon can figure it out too.


I think with itunes the song is tied to your computer. You can download it to as many ipods as you want. If your computer or hard drive goes away you have to register new computer to continue right to songs. And must have backup of itunes files, you cannot redownload from itunes store.

With whispernet, Amazon has chosen to control rights at the Kindle not computer.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

davem2bits said:


> I think with itunes the song is tied to your computer. You can download it to as many ipods as you want. If your computer or hard drive goes away you have to register new computer to continue right to songs. And must have backup of itunes files, you cannot redownload from itunes store.
> 
> With whispernet, Amazon has chosen to control rights at the Kindle not computer.


Since, with whisper net, no computer is required.


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## vermontcathy (Feb 18, 2009)

Kristus412 said:


> That makes sense to a point. However, if you sell the Kindle or give it away once it's re registered by the new owner and they go to add more content wouldn't it take off anything not registered to that account...


It's possible that Amazon _could _do it this way, but as it is now, NO, when the device is registered to a new account, the books from the previous account are not removed. With the exception of a periodical subscription where old editions are deleted, I know of NO situation where Amazon will remove something from your kindle. And frankly, I kind of like it that way. I know they automatically install updates, but other than that I don't like the idea of them messing with MY device, MY stuff.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

vermontcathy said:


> It's possible that Amazon _could _do it this way, but as it is now, NO, when the device is registered to a new account, the books from the previous account are not removed. With the exception of a periodical subscription where old editions are deleted, I know of NO situation where Amazon will remove something from your kindle. And frankly, I kind of like it that way. I know they automatically install updates, but other than that I don't like the idea of them messing with MY device, MY stuff.


Sorry vermontcathy, but if you 'return' a Kindle book, Amazon will automate the deletion of that book from your Kindle if you have WN on.


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## vermontcathy (Feb 18, 2009)

Jesslyn said:


> Sorry vermontcathy, but if you 'return' a Kindle book, Amazon will automate the deletion of that book from your Kindle if you have WN on.


OK, I didn't think about that situation. But it seems totally justified - you just demanded your money back. The whole situation of changing what account your kindle is registered to is a little muddier, so I'm very glad they aren't reaching out and deleting books (other than when you demand your money back).


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Jesslyn said:


> Sorry vermontcathy, but if you 'return' a Kindle book, Amazon will automate the deletion of that book from your Kindle if you have WN on.


Which is only fair. The hazy part is what should happen if you transfer ownership of a Kindle reader.

The real shameful part here is luv's experience of having two defective Kindles replaced and later finding out her device count was not reset. This is a real black eye for Amazon and something that should be addressed. The burden should not be on luv to ask a lowly C/S person to fix this. Her license count should have been reset when she returned the defective Kindles. This definitely needs to be addressed by Amazon in a more fair way.


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## SongbirdVB (Nov 18, 2008)

vermontcathy said:


> It's possible that Amazon _could _do it this way, but as it is now, NO, when the device is registered to a new account, the books from the previous account are not removed. With the exception of a periodical subscription where old editions are deleted, I know of NO situation where Amazon will remove something from your kindle. And frankly, I kind of like it that way. I know they automatically install updates, but other than that I don't like the idea of them messing with MY device, MY stuff.


I know that when I purchased a book by accident then returned it the book disappeared from my K the next time I turned on WN. But that was a case of them removing ONE book, and removing it from the entire account. The only fix I could see here would be that when a K not shipped directly from Amazon (used, ebay, etc.) is first registered to an account the initial WN sync wipes it clean of all books, then gives you the option of adding all books on the account at once or selecting which books will be added.

Does that make any sense at all?


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

SongbirdVB said:


> I know that when I purchased a book by accident then returned it the book disappeared from my K the next time I turned on WN. But that was a case of them removing ONE book, and removing it from the entire account. The only fix I could see here would be that when a K not shipped directly from Amazon (used, ebay, etc.) is first registered to an account the initial WN sync wipes it clean of all books, then gives you the option of adding all books on the account at once or selecting which books will be added.
> 
> Does that make any sense at all?


Yes, that makes sense.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

I think that if a Kindle is deregistered from an account, that Kindle should lose all access to the books from the account. Yes, I was one of the ones that figured out this isn't true, and I use this fact so I can purchase books from two different accounts, but it's not right. They obviously have the ability to remove access to a book because they can remove it when you return it

I've had 2 defective Kindles and 1 defective iphone... That's three licenses right there that are gone. Now I'm told that if I want those licenses back, I have to call them with a list of the books that need this done to. I have over 200 books that I need to go through and figure this out on...I was told to call, not email. I can't imagine how long this is going to take.

Audible allows your purchases to be downloaded to so many devices and you can have content from 2 different accounts on one device. If you deregister a device, you can no longer play Audible books on that device, and you can add a new device to your account. This is what Amazon should be doing. And they shouldn't have waited a year to tell everybody how this license thing works. All they said was you can read a book on up to 6 different devices at once..Not once you've read the book on up to 6 different devices, sorry, you can't add it to another one, even if you've gone and upgraded. Knowing this, I really wish I had kept my K1 - Because I sold it, I don't get that license back..Also, if I  HAD known this before I sold it, I WOULLDN'T have deleted the books off of it, and I would have let the new owner have the books because she obviously has a license to read them since she owns the Kindle.

Just my take on it. Amazon needs to address this. As much as I've loved my K1 and now my K2, this policy will possibly keep me from upgrading to further versions (and keep my mom and daughter from upgrading as well)


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Thank you Luv.  I agree with you 100% and I knew you would express it better than I did earlier.  I love the Kindle, DH loves the Kindle and they both (KK and K2) have functioned well since day one and do exactly what we want them to do at the present time.  This issue puts a kink in the works for upgrading and "keeping" a library of books to be picked back up at a moment's notice in the future without going through a crazy rigamarole like you have to to get your books re-licensed now.


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## Sparkplug (Feb 13, 2009)

luvmy4brats said:


> Just my take on it. Amazon needs to address this. As much as I've loved my K1 and now my K2, this policy will possibly keep me from upgrading to further versions (and keep my mom and daughter from upgrading as well)


I'm in total agreement. Once a device is deregistered from an account all licenses on that device should be voided. Right now I have my K1, my iPhone and my mom's K2 registered to my account. Until Amazon fixes this issue, I would hesitate upgrading with to a newer Kindle (even if it means I'd have to live without folders/tags).


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Sparkplug said:


> I'm in total agreement. Once a device is deregistered from an account all licenses on that device should be voided. Right now I have my K1, my iPhone and my mom's K2 registered to my account. Until Amazon fixes this issue, I would hesitate upgrading with to a newer Kindle (even if it means I'd have to live without folders/tags).


I think the problem here is trying to figure out how to disable the kbooks on a deregistered Kindle. Once they are there, they are readable forever or as long as the Kindle is usable. What if there is no WN access? Does Amazon require some kind of USB/computer connecton to remove the kbooks as you deregister your Kindle and return the licenses to your account? Not sure if that is possible? This is probably why the licensing works the way it does.

Does anyone know what happens if you want to return a kbook and you are in a nonWN area? How does Amazon verify the kbook deletion before refunding your money?

Amazon probably figured this would be a non-issue by the time the K7 was released. Everything would be free and no one would do anything as mundane as work, except those brillant authors..

"Nuttier than peanut butter." I like that.


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## Shizu (Oct 27, 2008)

Amazon's selling point was we can download and re-download any books we purchase whenever we want so we don't need to keep them in our Kindle. Isn't this mean we'll be able to have our books in Amazon Library as long as Amazon exist like 5 yrs, 10 yrs and more from now? We are likely to upgrade our Kindle and now iPhone (and what else will there be in the future) like now with so many people, include myself. Nowadays, the gadgets life is so short (such as life of battery, my cell phone is only a year old and I don't use much but I have to recharge everyday. I don't think it will last two years). If we can only download to 6 device (and maybe less), this called our Amazon Library won't do any good to so many people. The book we purchase is up with Amazon but we won't be able to read with new device we get in the future.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Come on, you don't expect Mr B to continue driving last years Rolls when the new model comes out do you!

Ooops, I meant his chauffeur.  Mr B sits in the back, he don't drive anymore.


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## Kristus412 (Nov 22, 2008)

davem2bits said:


> I think with itunes the song is tied to your computer. You can download it to as many ipods as you want. If your computer or hard drive goes away you have to register new computer to continue right to songs.  And must have backup of itunes files, you cannot redownload from itunes store.
> 
> With whispernet, Amazon has chosen to control rights at the Kindle not computer.


I think they are just going to have to figure out a way to change that and tie them to you Amazon account and not the Kindle they weren't looking very far into the future to do something like this.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Kristus412 said:


> I think they are just going to have to figure out a way to change that and tie them to you Amazon account and not the Kindle they weren't looking very far into the future to do something like this.


Obliviously


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

Jesslyn said:


> What's even more confusing about the policy is that Amazon has the power to remotely remove a book from your Kindle when it syncs. That leaves me wondering if the problem is that they don't want to expend resources on the issue rather than it being that they can't.


I haven't noticed that. Does that mean you can download it again for free or must be purchased again?


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Thank you. This issue is very scary to me. I was given one Kindle as a gift {1}, and liked it so much I purchased a second from the office {2}. The second had battery problems, so Amazon sent me a replacement {3}. And when Kindle for iPhone came out, of course I had to try it {4}. (I tried it, then deleted the app... neat idea but no Kindle.) Does that mean that after I upgrade both of my Kindles {5} {6}, I'll need to buy all of my books _again_?

That could be some serious $$$. Look at your book shelves, and imagine having to buy all of those books again, or losing access to them forever.

It's just wrong.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

webhill said:


> they sent me that horrible email about how my problem actually paled in comparison to the problems of homeless people dying in the street, child abuse, and arctic whale poaching.


You should post their email to the forum, to slashdot.com, and send it to David Pogue at the New York Times. Their _job_ is to solve these problems, not to ignore them or make light of them.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

starryskyz said:


> In hindsight, I guess this could be another reason why they removed the SD Card slot...previously could we just store the books on the sd card and take it Kindle from Kindle as long as it's registered to us? (I never used that feature...)


No, that would not work. When you download a book, the content is digitally encrypted for the target device, using a code generated from its serial number. If you tried to use that content on another device, the device would not know how to decrypt it.

(Note, if this did work, you could simply copy books to your hard drive using the USB cable... they're all there on the Kindle.)


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

jimbellow said:


> I'm tired of paying for things and losing them.. like Itunes... Itunes should be able to keep a record and know I bought that song 5 years ago and should have full rights to download it again.


I can understand the argument for not being able to something again. Why should Apple have to store something you bought, just in case you destroy it? But once I've bought something, I should be able to use it as long as I live. A book should not _stop working_.


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## Arkhan (Feb 17, 2009)

To be honest, I will gladly take responsibility of backing my books up, just like music, if it will allow me to use the book as long as I keep upgrading devices. Audible was mentioned earlier. The way they have it set up is great and Amazon only OWNS Audible. I am sure they can come up with some similar ideas. It wouldn't be that inconvenient to force a Kindle to be physically connected to a PC for de-registration from an account. Then they can be sure all books are removed during the process. I don't mind minor inconveniences if it means I am not wasting my money on ebooks I won't be able to read in another 10 years. Actually I wouldn't even mind a simple phone call to Amazon to clear up a registration when I buy my 7th device. The problem is, I am not dumb enough to believe there is going to be anything easy about that call other than dialing the number, and in the end will probably be made to feel like a criminal when all I did was buy the newest Kindle. 

Amazon does need to figure out a better way to handle this.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

The license needs to be removed when you delete the book from the device. It really is that simple. I don't get why they set it up so that this did not happen. All it is going to do is cause them headaches when people call in and want licenses removed.

Luv: If I were you I would just give them a list of all the books you have and tell them they need those licenses cleared. You should not have to determine what books were on what devices.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

ProfCrash said:


> The license needs to be removed when you delete the book from the device. It really is that simple. I don't get why they set it up so that this did not happen. All it is going to do is cause them headaches when people call in and want licenses removed.
> 
> Luv: If I were you I would just give them a list of all the books you have and tell them they need those licenses cleared. You should not have to determine what books were on what devices.


The problem is DRM and how Amazon implemented it. They made all of the books you download encrypted using a PID derived from your device's serial number. They also made it very easy to copy books off of your Kindle... you simply hook up a USB cable and copy them to your hard drive. So, what you could also do is...

1) Copy books off your Kindle.
2) Call Amazon or use a menu to deregister your Kindle. All of the books on the Kindle are deleted.
3) Copy the books back to your Kindle from your hard drive. The copies still work, since they're keyed to that Kindle's serial number.

iTunes music (before they decided DRM was hostile to customers and stopped using it) worked differently. You could easily copy music from one Mac to another. When you tried to play the music bought from an iTunes Music Store account for the first time, it would 'phone home' asking 'is this iTunes authorized for the account that bought this music?'. If not, then it would ask you to authorize, and send a message to Apple asking that another device be authorized for playing all music owned by that account. Apple would note the device, and if it was new, would ding you one. (I believe you got three.) Only when all of this was done would the music play.

In addition, Apple always had the policy that all iPods/iPhones sync'ed with iTunes would play authorized music from that iTunes. iPods/iPhones didn't count against your limit.

coyote


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## KindleMom (Dec 11, 2008)

I really think this will ease up as ereaders become more prevalent.  It's happened with ipod/mp3 players and authors will realize being exclusive only hurts them. Itunes is finally coming around I think in part because of Amazon and how they sell their mp3s.  That's a little ironic, IMO.  Maybe it will take Sony/Google to have Amazon and its authors rethink their strategy.  I sure hope so.

There will always be a portion of people who will be dishonest about how files are shared which is too bad for those of us who want to make sure the creators get their $$$.  But I think the majority of people are honest and won't illegally share.


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

KindleMom said:


> There will always be a portion of people who will be dishonest about how files are shared which is too bad for those of us who want to make sure the creators get their $$$. But I think the majority of people are honest and won't illegally share.


The funny thing is, DRM never has an never will stop people from illegally downloading books, music, etc. There are still ways around it.

Now, I'm not the type person to pursue those illegal ways, but DRM does not stop those who do pursue them from getting those things.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

coyote said:


> iTunes music (before they decided DRM was hostile to customers and stopped using it) worked differently. You could easily copy music from one Mac to another. When you tried to play the music bought from an iTunes Music Store account for the first time, it would 'phone home' asking 'is this iTunes authorized for the account that bought this music?'. If not, then it would ask you to authorize, and send a message to Apple asking that another device be authorized for playing all music owned by that account. Apple would note the device, and if it was new, would ding you one. (I believe you got three.) Only when all of this was done would the music play.


I wonder if that is why Apple did away with DRM in itunes? itunes has been around long enough for Mac owners to have replaced their computers four times. Finding out they couldn't use their itunes library on that new computer, may have lead to some irate calls to Apple support.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

davem2bits said:


> I wonder if that is why Apple did away with DRM in itunes? itunes has been around long enough for Mac owners to have replaced their computers four times. Finding out they couldn't use their itunes library on that new computer, may have lead to some irate calls to Apple support.


No, Apple provided a 'deauthorize' menu item in iTunes, and you could also (once a year at most) request that all of your authorizations be cleared. Any machine that wanted to play music would then need to be re-authorized.

Ron


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## Wunderkind (Jan 14, 2009)

ProfCrash said:


> The license needs to be removed when you delete the book from the device. It really is that simple. I don't get why they set it up so that this did not happen. All it is going to do is cause them headaches when people call in and want licenses removed.


It may have been necessary to keep the license on the device so that the archive list would properly show those books that could be re-downloaded to the device.

As others have stated, if the deregistering process had a step that automatically removed the books from that device at the time of deregistering (including those devices that are deregistered that would need to use a cable due to no Whispernet availability), it seems like this would address the issue. We are leasing/buying the right to read these books and should be able to designate which device(s) we want to read them on. Fixing the current deregistering process will allow that to happen. If someone sells their device and they want to give one of the 6 leases to the buyer, that can be their choice by keeping the device registered on their account.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Wunderkind said:


> As others have stated, if the deregistering process had a step that automatically removed the books from that device at the time of deregistering (including those devices that are deregistered that would need to use a cable due to no Whispernet availability), it seems like this would address the issue. We are leasing/buying the right to read these books and should be able to designate which device(s) we want to read them on. Fixing the current deregistering process will allow that to happen. If someone sells their device and they want to give one of the 6 leases to the buyer, that can be their choice by keeping the device registered on their account.


As I said before, this isn't the way Amazon DRM works. There is no 'license'. Rather, when a book is downloaded, it is locked to the serial number of the device to which it is downloaded. While the book could be deleted off of the device by Amazon, there is nothing to prevent the user from making a backup first (via USB cable) and then restoring it after. The only way Amazon could do this would be to constantly check for books every time the device checks in for subscription content. With the number of Kindles out there, this would be a huge task.


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## Wunderkind (Jan 14, 2009)

coyote said:


> As I said before, this isn't the way Amazon DRM works. There is no 'license'. Rather, when a book is downloaded, it is locked to the serial number of the device to which it is downloaded. While the book could be deleted off of the device by Amazon, there is nothing to prevent the user from making a backup first (via USB cable) and then restoring it after. The only way Amazon could do this would be to constantly check for books every time the device checks in for subscription content. With the number of Kindles out there, this would be a huge task.


It is clear that Amazon doesn't work that way now. The issue is what can be improved so that as people add/change devices they can continue to get what they paid for with their purchases, which is the right to read a book.

I think the deregistering process should be updated by Amazon so that if someone deletes a device from their account, deregistration is not complete until Amazon removes the licenses/books associated with that account from the device. If Whispernet is available it can be done wirelessly; otherwise, it is done using the computer. This allows the person that "bought" the book to determine which devices they want them legitimately available on.

Obviously, the current environment doesn't reflect this and it seems that Amazon should be clear on what they plan to do so that future buyers of Kindles can make informed decisions.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Wunderkind said:


> It is clear that Amazon doesn't work that way now. The issue is what can be improved so that as people add/change devices they can continue to get what they paid for with their purchases, which is the right to read a book.


The only way to fix this would be for Amazon to change to a different DRM scheme. All of the content on our devices would have to be replaced with content using the new scheme. This might be fairly disruptive for users, but since Amazon gives us all a nice high-speed wifi, could possibly be done overnight (or over several nights, for those of you who have gazillions of books.)

Or (dare I hope?) Amazon could convince publishers to allow them to drop DRM entirely, as Apple did.


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## Wunderkind (Jan 14, 2009)

coyote said:


> Or (dare I hope?) Amazon could convince publishers to allow them to drop DRM entirely, as Apple did.


Now *that* would be ideal! Maybe as e-reading gets more and more popular it will happen -- same way as with digital music over time.


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## Shizu (Oct 27, 2008)

I send a email to Amazon customer support yesterday. I just got a reply.

My email:

I own both Kindle original and Kindle 2. And there's 3 iPhone in the family. I'm concern about the book download.

Amazon's selling point was we can download and re-download any books we purchase whenever we want so we don't need to keep them in our Kindle. Isn't this mean we'll be able to have our books in Amazon Library as long as Amazon exist like 5 yrs, 10 yrs and more from now? But we likely to upgrade our Kindle and now iPhone (and what else will there be in the future) like now. Nowadays, the gadgets life is so short (such as life of battery, my cell phone is only a year old and I don't use much but I have to recharge everyday. I don't think it will last two years). If we can only download to 6 devices (and maybe less), this called our Amazon Library won't do any good to us and so many people. The book we purchase is up with Amazon but we won't be able to read with new device we get in the future. I want to know how this is going to work. My Amazon will be worthless in the very near future with my new devices.

---------------
Amazon's reply:

Hello,

The limit of (up to) 6 licenses per book is mainly in place to prevent books from being downloaded to Kindles that are only temporarily registered to an account, and then deregistered and put on another account.

It is certainly not our intention to penalize customers who want to read their Kindle books on the variety of devices that are available now and may be available in the future. I can only assure you that this license limit will continue to be reviewed the Kindle Store and its compatible reading devices continue to evolve.

If you have any further questions or concerns, the link below will take you to an immediate response form on Amazon.com that will forward your inquiry directly to our support specialists. You may be prompted to sign in first. This is to ensure we have your account information when you contact us:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html

Thank you for choosing Kindle.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

One thing that needs to be done is to have lots of people asking this question lots of times.  It's the squeaking wheel that gets the grease.  Start a movement, ask people to contact Amazon on this issue expressig your preferences.  They will ultimately do what the market demands.

Betsy


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## MAGreen (Jan 5, 2009)

As far as being able to re-download the book as many times as you want, I think that means on a device that already has that book licenced to it. So if I have "Twilight" on my Kindle, but want to delete it, I can, and since I have already licenced it to that Kindle I can re-download it from Amazon as many times as I want with that device. If I want to upgrade and get rid of an old device, I could call CS and they will walk me through freeing up the licences on that device so I can add them to my new one. If I just want more than 6 on my account, I will either have to buy the books again for the 7th-12th devices, or use them to read newer books that hadn't been put on all 1-6.
Does that make sense at all?


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

MAGreen said:


> As far as being able to re-download the book as many times as you want, I think that means on a device that already has that book licenced to it. So if I have "Twilight" on my Kindle, but want to delete it, I can, and since I have already licenced it to that Kindle I can re-download it from Amazon as many times as I want with that device. If I want to upgrade and get rid of an old device, I could call CS and they will walk me through freeing up the licences on that device so I can add them to my new one. If I just want more than 6 on my account, I will either have to buy the books again for the 7th-12th devices, or use them to read newer books that hadn't been put on all 1-6.
> Does that make sense at all?


That makes sense, and is essentially the old iTunes model. Basically your Amazon e-library can have 6 registered devices at any one time. If you de-register a device, your books are no longer readable on that device.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter AKA Agent 72 said:


> One thing that needs to be done is to have lots of people asking this question lots of times. It's the squeaking wheel that gets the grease. Start a movement, ask people to contact Amazon on this issue expressig your preferences. They will ultimately do what the market demands.
> 
> Betsy


(grumbles) That hasn't gotten us folders. (/grumbles)


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## MAGreen (Jan 5, 2009)

Not quite, coyote, some people will deregister the device just so that if they let the kids use it they can't order more books! Personally, I think if you can't trust the kid not to do that they shouldn't be allowed to use the Kindle, but that's not the point. Anyway, even if the Kindle is not registered the licence is still on that device, you have to call CS and they can remove the licences so you can use them on a new device. They won't do this unless you are selling it or have lost it or are upgrading and plan to get rid of it. They will remove ALL licences when they do it too, not just a few, so it basically clears it at least of all Amazon content.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

MAGreen said:


> Not quite, coyote, some people will deregister the device just so that if they let the kids use it they can't order more books! Personally, I think if you can't trust the kid not to do that they shouldn't be allowed to use the Kindle, but that's not the point. Anyway, even if the Kindle is not registered the licence is still on that device, you have to call CS and they can remove the licences so you can use them on a new device. They won't do this unless you are selling it or have lost it or are upgrading and plan to get rid of it. They will remove ALL licences when they do it too, not just a few, so it basically clears it at least of all Amazon content.


I was talking about the 'ideal' model, not the current model. The current model doesn't use 'licenses', it uses a PID derived from the serial number of your Kindle. (Someone has reverse-engineered this.)

Back to the 'ideal' model, for the 'lent to a child' problem Amazon should implement parental controls. Easy enough.


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## MAGreen (Jan 5, 2009)

Ahh, thank you, wise coyote!


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## PJ (Feb 25, 2009)

coyote said:


> .Or (dare I hope?) Amazon could convince publishers to allow them to drop DRM entirely, as Apple did.


But that is a recent development. It took many years for the music industry to come to that point. I fear that the publishing industry is less forward thinking and even more fearful of digital distribution than the music industry. And we all remember how paranoid the music industry was 10 years ago.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

What we are doing here folks, is just gasbagging.  We need someone with some real gas to chime in.  Mr B or someone of that strata at Amazon.  C/S folks just repeat what they have been told to say.  Why doesn't someone invite Mr B over?  Maybe he could become our 3000th member?  Wouldn't that be a hoot (Hope that doesn't get this deleted).


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

I think the simplest way to cure this would be when a Kindle is registered to a new account it is wiped of all content.  You can always loan/sell your Kindle to someone else and they can read what is on the device but as soon as it is synced with another account (i.e. buy a new book)... whammoooo.... All content is gone.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

I wrote to Amazon and asked them whether I could 'de-register' my iPhone, as I had no intention of using it after my initial curiosity. I mentioned that I already had two Kindles, and didn't want to use one of my precious licenses on the iPhone. Their response follows:



> I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but you have used three of your licenses. If your device is ever stolen or lost, we can re initiate that license. I can definitely take your feedback on this issue.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Jeez!!!  What if you emailed back and said it was lost.  Would they require a police report and confirmation from AT&T?


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

Ok...  I have a question... It is going to sound like Blasphemy but I have to ask.  I received my K2 in the first shipment that went out when they released it so I have about 3 days to return within my 30 day window.  Are any of you considering getting rid of your Kindle over this issue?

I find it very concerning that I may buy content that one day I can no longer access just because I spent more money (upgraded) with the company that provided the material.  I was an original K1 owner but sold mine in anticipation of the K2 and I have the iPhone application.  I have now used 3 of my 6 licenses.

Chris


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

The other thing is that I feel REALLY GUILTY because I showed off my Kindle 2 and 2 of my co-workers bought them.  I hope I didn't steer them down the wrong path.

Chris


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Chris said:


> Ok... I have a question... It is going to sound like Blasphemy but I have to ask. I received my K2 in the first shipment that went out when they released it so I have about 3 days to return within my 30 day window. Are any of you considering getting rid of your Kindle over this issue?
> 
> I find it very concerning that I may buy content that one day I can no longer access just because I spent more money (upgraded) with the company that provided the material. I was an original K1 owner but sold mine in anticipation of the K2 and I have the iPhone application. I have now used 3 of my 6 licenses.
> 
> Chris


Scroll up, I'm considering it. Not sure how seriously, but I am considering it. This is my first K2. I have an iphone, but only d/l'd one kbook to it before I realized what I was doing. Won't do that again. Only read public domain short stories on it, now. I think Amazon will do right by us eventually. Like Agent 72 said  , may take alot of squeeking. But nothing I do better than bitch.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I would not return my Kindle over this. If push came to shove you can have whatever device you want the license removed from break. 

We are still in the early days of the technology. There are going to be bumps in the road. 

That is my opinion. If you feel strongly enough about the issue then by all means return it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm a little confused at this point.  My brother and I share an account.  Only a very few books have been put on both Kindles.  It seems to me only those few are limited, the other 200 books will only have been put on MY Kindle, so I've only used up one license for those books?  Is that correct?

Betsy


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter AKA Agent 72 said:


> I'm a little confused at this point. My brother and I share an account. Only a very few books have been put on both Kindles. It seems to me only those few are limited, the other 200 books will only have been put on MY Kindle, so I've only used up one license for those books? Is that correct?
> 
> Betsy


You're correct. Every time you put a book on a device it uses a license. so if you have 200 books on yours and 50 on both, you've only used 2 licenses on those 50.

I called again today over this and explained I had more than 60 books I'm having issues with. I think I scared the woman because she immediately put me on hold to speak to her supervisor. She then came back on the phone and told me that I COULD email them the list and they'd take care of it. I'm going to work on this tonight and hopefully get it sent off. I'll let you guys know how quickly they take care of it.


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

I think it is as simple as this.  

Every Book can be paired (downloaded) to a different Kindle/iPhone/iPod Touch 6 times in its life.  If you have 200 books and 100 of them were downloaded to one Kindle and all 200 of them were downloaded to another then 100 of them have used 2 of 6 Licenses and 100 of them have used 1 of the 6 Licenses.

Registration/Deregistration has nothing at all to do with licenses.

Chris

P.S. I guess its not simple


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Chris said:


> I think it is as simple as this.
> 
> Every Book can be paired (downloaded) to a different Kindle/iPhone/iPod Touch 6 times in its life. If you have 200 books and 100 of them were downloaded to one Kindle and all 200 of them were downloaded to another then 100 of them have used 2 of 6 Licenses and 100 of them have used 1 of the 6 Licenses.
> 
> ...


It seems pretty simple. Unless of course you are me and have downloaded every single book to every single device at least once...Why did I do that? Because I could. I like to test things  I never realized that I was forever using one of those licenses. It wasn't until recently that I discovered this <sigh> I do hope they realize this is a really bad idea.


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## Shizu (Oct 27, 2008)

luvmy4brats said:


> You're correct. Every time you put a book on a device it uses a license. so if you have 200 books on yours and 50 on both, you've only used 2 licenses on those 50.
> 
> I called again today over this and explained I had more than 60 books I'm having issues with. I think I scared the woman because she immediately put me on hold to speak to her supervisor. She then came back on the phone and told me that I COULD email them the list and they'd take care of it. I'm going to work on this tonight and hopefully get it sent off. I'll let you guys know how quickly they take care of it.


Luv, why can't Amazon look into your Media Library and release the license to all books in there which hooked to the old Kindle? They should know which book had been licensed to which device. Isn't it? They have all the information they need in their hand...


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Shizu said:


> Luv, why can't Amazon look into your Media Library and release the license to all books in there which hooked to the old Kindle? They should know which book had been licensed to which device. Isn't it? They have all the information they need in their hand...


I've asked that and had no good answer to it. It would make sense wouldn't it? Apparently it has to be done manually within each book


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## ElLector (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh, no! Wait a minute. So does that mean my replacement Kindle 2 is considered a third license even if I have de-registered the defective one? I say third because I owned a K1 as well. (Many members have posted, so I'm not sure if this was answered already.)

No! This doesn't make any sense on Amazon's part. They have to be careful, or there are going to be a lot of customers moving over to the Sony E-book. I call it the next great E-book exodus. Come on, Amazon! Keep your reputation in good standing.

I'm angry about this *duh-hoy-hoy* policy.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

ElLector said:


> Oh, no! Wait a minute. So does that mean my replacement Kindle 2 is considered a third license even if I have de-registered the defective one? I say third because I owned a K1 as well. (Many members have posted, so I'm not sure if this was answered already.)
> 
> No! This doesn't make any sense on Amazon's part. They have to be careful, or there are going to be a lot of customers moving over to the Sony E-book. I call it the next great E-book exodus. Come on, Amazon! Keep your reputation in good standing.
> 
> I'm angry about this *duh-hoy-hoy* policy.


In cases of this license limit being reached due to warranty replacements or other exceptional circumstances, Customer Service can free licenses used by devices no longer accessible. You just have to call/email them to tell themwhich books you need the license freed up on.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

I think my final say on this is that Amazon needs to take a page from iTunes (that may have been stated and I lost track).  Its the account that is the key, not the device.  

As soon as a Kindle gets registered to an account that Kindle connects with Amazon and 'authorizes' its content.  Doesn't work so well on a K1  , but seems to be made for the K2


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's a reason not to download books to your Kindle via whispernet. On the other hand, I like having all my books with me at all times.]

All I can say, is keep browbeating Amazon.  The difference between this and complaining about not having folders is they have to keep jumping through hoops to fix the problem their policy has caused.  Eventually it will cost them more than it is worth to have the policy.

Betsy


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

luvmy4brats said:


> I've asked that and had no good answer to it. It would make sense wouldn't it? Apparently it has to be done manually within each book


This sounds like a C/S person being lazy. This hole policy sounds like someone being lazy and it is going to come back to bite Amazon in the butt.


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## Sparkplug (Feb 13, 2009)

If anyone does return their Kindle to Amazon in the 30 day window for this reason, make it very clear that this is *the reason* why you are returning it. Write them a letter telling the powers that be all the things that you love about the Kindle, and if this problem was fixed, you would purchase another Kindle.

Frankly, I would be very surprised if Amazon doesn't fix this by the time K3 or K4 comes out. Otherwise they would probably disenfranchise a lot of their Kindle customer base -- all of whom would probably make the decision not to buy from Amazon ever again. (Nothing sucks more than sinking $$$$ into technology & materials and not being able to use it in the future, as any HD DVD player owner would attest). Not only would Amazon lose future sales from an extremely loyal customer base (and I imagine a Kindle user probably spends a lot more money annually than the average Amazon customer), but they would also have a huge PR problem that could cost them new first-time Kindle sales.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Sparkplug said:


> If anyone does return their Kindle to Amazon in the 30 day window for this reason, make it very clear that this is *the reason* why you are returning it. Write them a letter telling the powers that be all the things that you love about the Kindle, and if this problem was fixed, you would purchase another Kindle.


Also, if you were thinking of upgrading, and this is a reason you don't, be sure to write Amazon and tell them that. Losing a chance to upsell someone is a big deal to a merchant.

Betsy


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## Chris (Dec 6, 2008)

I suspect Amazon had very little to do with this and the Publishers drove this model.  Amazon just complied.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Chris said:


> I suspect Amazon had very little to do with this and the Publishers drove this model. Amazon just complied.


Very possible, but you can bet that Amazon has a lot to say to publishers about what the users are saying.


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## davem2bits (Feb 2, 2009)

Publishers?  I hope this won't take a public burning of kbooks to make right.


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## Anju  (Nov 8, 2008)

davem2bits said:


> Publishers? I hope this won't take a public burning of kbooks to make right.


bite your tongue


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## Sparkplug (Feb 13, 2009)

Is this topic being discussed on Amazon's Kindle Community discusion forum? I rarely visit, and just quickly scanned it and found nothing on this topic. If not, Jesslyn, perhaps you should post about this issue there as well. The squeakier the wheel, the sooner Amazon makes this a priority.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Sparkplug said:


> Is this topic being discussed on Amazon's Kindle Community discusion forum? I rarely visit, and just quickly scanned it and found nothing on this topic. If not, Jesslyn, perhaps you should post about this issue there as well. The squeakier the wheel, the sooner Amazon makes this a priority.


I posted a review of Kindle for iPhone complaining about this policy and warning people that using Kindle for iPhone burns book licenses.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

Sparkplug said:


> Is this topic being discussed on Amazon's Kindle Community discusion forum? I rarely visit, and just quickly scanned it and found nothing on this topic. If not, Jesslyn, perhaps you should post about this issue there as well. The squeakier the wheel, the sooner Amazon makes this a priority.


It's in the Amazon Customer Service posts thread on their K2 board.


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## MAGreen (Jan 5, 2009)

Sparkplug said:


> Is this topic being discussed on Amazon's Kindle Community discusion forum? I rarely visit, and just quickly scanned it and found nothing on this topic. If not, Jesslyn, perhaps you should post about this issue there as well. The squeakier the wheel, the sooner Amazon makes this a priority.


It was a couple days ago, I don't know about recently, I read one to many rude posts and stopped reading them.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

MAGreen said:


> It was a couple days ago, I don't know about recently, I read one to many rude posts and stopped reading them.


Probably didn't have to read far for that.


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

Sparkplug said:


> Is this topic being discussed on Amazon's Kindle Community discusion forum? I rarely visit, and just quickly scanned it and found nothing on this topic. If not, Jesslyn, perhaps you should post about this issue there as well. The squeakier the wheel, the sooner Amazon makes this a priority.


I posted my original and follow-up on the board. I mostly do hit and runs on the Amazon boards because (unlike KindleBoards) they need a little more moderation on the flaming, rude and off-topic posting going on there.


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## Cammie (Nov 15, 2008)

Perhaps we should consider going on strike.  No more ebook purchases from Amazon until they resolve this issue!  Are you with me my brother and sister ebook bibliophiles?  

Hmm....I think I'm only half kidding.  My common sense is telling me to stop buying books that I will likely have no access to in the near future. I'm starting to think I need to start looking around for a Sony 505 reader (505 because I heard the upgrade had a lot of glare).


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Cammie said:


> Perhaps we should consider going on strike. No more ebook purchases from Amazon until they resolve this issue! Are you with me my brother and sister ebook bibliophiles?
> 
> Hmm....I think I'm only half kidding. My common sense is telling me to stop buying books that I will likely have no access to in the near future. I'm starting to think I need to start looking around for a Sony 505 reader (505 because I heard the upgrade had a lot of glare).


That thought creates a shudder first thing this morning! I am going to try and have faith that Amazon has been such a great company to work with regarding our Kindles (I WILL NOT discuss folders anymore!) that they will work this issue out.


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## thorn (Mar 15, 2009)

well. too late for me to not use my ipod touch with my amazon account. on the bright side, i only have a few titles on the ipod touch.

maybe the policy will change when jeff bezos gets to device #7?


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## MikeD (Nov 5, 2008)

JMO, but I seriously doubt that this is a matter of philosophy and more a matter of technology.

Amazon has manually released registration licenses where needed. I suspect that this is actually a design flaw that needs to be addressed in the Kindle management software. Since few people have reached the 6 device limit with one or more of those 6 actually being de-registered Kindles, I also suspect that Amazon has not fixed the problem as a matter of priority. They probably have tons of other things that need to be addressed that affect more people than this issue does today.

Complain, write letters, call CS. IMHO, that is all fair game. But give them a chance to address the issue in order of importance. 

BTW, great letter, Jesslyn.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I just split it off into a thread called Ebay SD card issues. . .my announcement of the split ended up over there. . .gotta figure this splitting thin a little better!

Anyway, if you're looking for the discussion about the SD card on e-bay, here's the new thread:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,5806.0.html

Ann


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