# When did editing stop being important?



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

I've been on a bit of a reading kick lately - I think I've read 9 or 10 books in the past 3 weeks. They've been a mix of genres ranging from urban fantasy to high fantasy to detective noir, and have also been a mix of indie and traditionally published authors. As I sat down last night to read the latest one I'd picked up and found no less than half a dozen spelling and/or grammatical mistakes within the first chapter I had to stop and ask myself "When did people stop caring about editing? When did it stop being an integral part of the publishing process?" 

Out of all the books I read over the past few weeks, only 3 of them didn't contain enough mistakes to make my eye start to twitch, and I credit that to the fact that they were all written by the same author. The books with the most mistakes? Written by someone who offers their services as an editor to other authors.  

Perhaps it's due to an aging memory, or because I'm more attuned to such things now that I'm a writer myself, but I don't remember books I read even 5 years ago containing half as many errors as the ones I encounter today. These are bestselling authors, authors who have access to professional editing and proofreaders, who are part of critique groups with other authors. So why are they putting out books that are riddled with mistakes? 

There's nothing that will knock me out of a story faster than a series of mistakes that should have been caught by a simple spellcheck or having someone with even half a brain proofread. There's also nothing that will make me lose respect for a fellow author quite as fast. Our works are a reflection of ourselves, they are the face we present to the world, and to put out something that is just downright sloppy shows a lack of self-respect as well as a lack of regard for the people who buy our books.

I like to think that I put out the best product I can. It's the result of several rounds of editing from myself and my fiance, beta reading, and professional editing, as well as one final round of editing that involves reading the whole thing out loud. Let me tell you, if you weren't sick and tired of your own work after more than 5 rounds of editing, you're definitely going to think its the biggest steaming pile of crap you've ever encountered after reading 100,000k+ works aloud over the span of a week. But at the end of the day, I can hit publish safe in the knowledge that it is the most polished and well-edited steaming pile of crap it could possibly be. And if I do happen to get feedback from someone that a mistake still managed to slip through, you can be damn sure I'm going to fix it as quickly as possible.

So... is it just me, or is anyone else seeing an complete disregard for editing infiltrating the publishing world like an insidious plague?


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Anyone can call themselves an editor and hang out a shingle and take authors' money.

The sad fact is that the author who really needs an editor can't tell if the editor is doing a good job or not. The difference between five years ago and now is that now the author independently hires the editor.


----------



## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

PaintedLady said:


> So... is it just me, or is anyone else seeing *an* complete disregard for editing infiltrating the publishing world like an insidious plague?


Start at home.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

PaintedLady said:


> one final round of editing that involves reading the whole thing out loud.


And that is where most errors occur and why most editors do not want thanked in the Acknowledgements because they have no control over what happens to the text after their work is done. The biggest problems with typos is what is introduced at the las minute and it has always been the way. Many a typo 50 years was spotted by the typesetter. I am much more worried about the failure to get good editorial advice on plot and pace and that goes for trade published books as well.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Given the number of conversations about this that I've read here over the years, I think the proper question to be posed is "why is editing not important to some?"  It clearly is important to a very large part of our membership and I can't say that the books I read, mostly by authors here, to be riddled with errors.

Betsy


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Start at home.


That's why I hire an editor  I'm no expert, and I'd never claim to be.


----------



## Roby (May 14, 2015)

Publishers stopped being the source of editing some years ago. If an author doesn't have an editor or isn't willing to hire one, then that author needs to have an unusual eye for his or her own mistakes. That isn't easy. I don't know exactly when the big publishers decided the editing wasn't their concern, but it was probably when the bean-counters took over. I worked for a small publisher, and we were scheduled to publish a book that the publisher wanted to have a wider readership than normal for us. It was not written well. The owner refused to give me permission to work on it during the normal working day, so I took it home, and on my own time--quite a bit of time--I edited it so that neither the author nor my employer would be humiliated by the end result.

The owner knew I was doing it, but never said a word until a year after the book was published. Then he walked into my office, threw a printout of the sales figures onto my desk, and said, "Tell me how many more copies we sold because you did all that editing work." Of course, I couldn't. He left, smug. I was then fully aware of how little good editing mattered to the money people.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it's probably just that you notice it more. I've always been one of those people for whom the one misspelled word or missplaced comma jumps out. On anything: cereal box, menu, sale sign, whatever. I don't feel like I'm seeing more issues in books, but that's a purely subjective assessment.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Given the number of conversations about this that I've read here over the years, I think the proper question to be posed is "why is editing not important to some?" It clearly is important to a very large part of our membership and I can't say The books I read, mostly by authors here, to be riddled with errors.
> 
> Betsy


And: this.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

I just finished reading The Girl on the Train. Throughout the book, the author is pretty fast and loose with punctuation rules. Specifically, she likes to connect complete sentences (sometimes three or more) with commas alone (no conjunctions or anything). This was obviously a style choice, and while at first it annoyed me, I got used to it. As a writer, it's hard not to pick apart these things, but I'm finding that maybe I don't have to be such a stickler all the time.


----------



## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm mortified by the number of typos that slipped through on No Mere Zombie. I employed a writing coach, a content editor, a line editor and a proof reader. There were still an embarassing number of typos, and I had to hire someone after the fact to go back in and clean it up. 

Part of my problem is publishing speed. I'm putting out content really fast. Part of my problem is not having built a great team of editors (yet). Part of it is process.

You can bet my next book will be much better proofed, and hopefully the one after that will be even better. To answer your question, I think we're under more pressure to put out more content and editing suffers. I've also noticed that most readers don't care. Several let me know about the errors privately, but not a single one said anything in a review. They still give it five stars.

I want to put out a better product, but like many here I'm learning to run my publishing business one typo at a time. Because our industry is so young it's taking time for many of us to reach the same level of polish you'll see in long-standing publishers. The reason you see typos in their books can vary, by the way. I recently bought Jurassic Park and it was littered with typos. I believe this happened because they scanned a manuscript and just dumped it up for sale with proofing.


----------



## archaeoroutes (Oct 12, 2014)

Occasional typos don't bother me too much. They happen. What gets my goat when reading is the constant misuse or mus-spelling of a word.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

My curiousity would be the approximate age of these books.    I know for a little while, there were several memes and people going around the internet saying that spelling and grammar don't matter and readers will buy anything.  Thankfully that has pretty much stopped now.
I did notice that the original ones saying that to the newer ones usually had reasonably clean texts.  Even if the tenses and dialogs were a bit questionable.  Some of the newer ones took it to mean that they could have homonym errors, syntax errors and just plain old misspelled words.  
Ok some of them were just plain funny like the herd of staffs greeted me when I came into the hotel.
I always wondered are the older ones trying to hurt the newer ones or were they thinking of tenses and dialog and the newer ones just didn't understand.

This is why I am not a professional editor.  Though I do proof and beta read at times.

At Chris, those OCR mistakes are a pain.


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Editing is important -- always has been, always will be.

Now take into consideration that the publishing industry is undergoing a profound shift. Books are rotating fast, lots is being published, and everybody is trying to make and save money at the same time. Liteterary English is a highly complex language that only few can master well enough to be excellent editors -- and those are rare.

People who are good at editing charge a lot for a reason: The work is demanding, takes years of learning (if not a lifetime), and to get a book perfectly polished you need two (not one) editors and at least two rounds of editing by each. Get the idea? It's expensive and time consuming. And publishers are not willing to make that investment anymore.

And even with the system described above there *still* might be mistakes in the endresult, because editors are people and not machines.

The bottom line? Joe Average won't notice the difference between solid and poor editing, because Joe Average doesn't know the demarcation between literary and spoken English -- and he doesn't care either.

The times of Big 5 high-end New Yorker editors who could teach Susan Sontag a thing or two are over. Read the New York Times -- even their articles are full of editorial mistakes these days.

Hope this sheds light on your original question.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I can overlook some typos and other mistakes (especially for noobs and indies) if they aren't too overwhelming (I find them in almost every book I read - I just wish I was as good at finding them in MINE).


Spoiler



What really irks me is plot inconsistencies that are just blaring. The story starts on a mountain and there is snow, her little sister thinks it must be near Christmas but the main character knows its only snowing in the mountains because its not winter.... then they go to NYC in a day and everything is covered in snow too- without any explanation. Argh.

Or its 2117 and there are still Barnes & Noble stores, Apple stores and Starbucks... **facepalm**



NONONONONONONONO

Unfortunately the story got more and more improbable after that.


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

geronl said:


> I can overlook some typos and other mistakes (especially for noobs and indies) if they aren't too overwhelming (I find them in almost every book I read - I just wish I was as good at finding them in MINE). What really irks me is plot inconsistencies that are just blaring. The story starts on a mountain and there is snow, her little sister thinks it must be near Christmas but the main character knows its only snowing in the mountains because its not winter.... then they go to NYC in a day and everything is covered in snow too- without any explanation. Argh.
> 
> Or its 2117 and there are still Barnes & Noble stores, Apple stores and Starbucks... **facepalm**
> 
> ...


LOLOL Which book is that one? I wanna read it.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jessie Jasen said:


> LOLOL Which book is that one? I wanna read it.


Probably better not to be named publicly!  How would you feel if it was one of yours?


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Probably better not to be named publicly!  How would you feel if it was one of yours?


I'd feel honored that anyone noticed my work. Seriously. 

And then I'd go and work on correcting and improving it (...and now I'm answering something you didn't ask at all...  )

P.S. If you ask me something again, I may feel inclined to gently and unobtrusively offer you a free copy of a book of mine of your choosing.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

It's never been that important to some. Five years ago I read one of the biggest selling indie books ever and it had hundreds if not a thousand errors. To others it's very important. As to why it isn't to some probably has a lot to do with the pressures of publishing often enough stay on top the algorithms. Some authors publish and then do updated versions to get rid of the typos, too. I just did that yesterday. I actually do edit, but I find if I look at a story a month later with fresh eyes I'll find something I missed. If I find too many errors to enjoy a book I just get a refund.


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Was the book you read 50 Shades of Grey by any chance?


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Probably better not to be named publicly!  How would you feel if it was one of yours?


I agree. I'd do that privately.


----------



## archaeoroutes (Oct 12, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> This is the most wonderfully appropriate typo and I love it.


I'd love to claim it as deliberate, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to blame predictive texting.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Probably better not to be named publicly!  How would you feel if it was one of yours?


Let me add that the book was actually quite action-packed and fast-paced. I bet a lot of readers enjoyed it so much they overlooked all of these niggling details, and judging from the reviews I'm mostly right in that.


----------



## J.T. Williams (Aug 7, 2014)

I have betas, myself (self-editing, obviously), and an editor. I would love to have more in my arsenal (more editors) but at this point it isn't feasible. The money isn't there... I strive to put out the best product I can with the budget I have. So far... no complaints. I'm editing book 3 (and saving up for my editor again). I would not dream of releasing a book without editing.

Anytime I read something and find a typo or other error, I do make a point to let the author know privately. I know how difficult errors can be to spot and I don't hold typos against anyone. That being said, I've read a few books that the errors were so horrendous I couldn't continue. Of books from authors here... that has never been a problem. I feel like most of us hold ourselves to a higher standard. ...Just saying, its an observation and a good one at that!  

I don't know if some authors just don't care or don't know to edit... I guess it is more likely they don't care. A lot of the poorly written books I've found have no author contact information and if they did it was very informal and frankly, sad.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I work with four different editors so I don't overwhelm them too much. Editing is still important and I don't know any successful indies who don't use at least one...

However, errors slip through. It happens. Not even the best editor in the world will catch all typos or skipped words or whatever. It's about % error not getting it perfect.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

J.T. Williams said:


> Anytime I read something and find a typo or other error, I do make a point to let the author know privately.


I have actually done that a few times here on the Kboards! Also, I never mention typos (or places where they accidentally skip a word) in the review I write. Those are things I normally do not judge a book by, unless there were just a lot of them.


----------



## J.T. Williams (Aug 7, 2014)

geronl said:


> Also, I never mention typos (or places where they accidentally skip a word) in the review I write. Those are things I normally do not judge a book by, unless there were just a lot of them.


I agree with this. A few typos happen. A few per page for 300 pages.... err... yeah, no good.


----------



## Mikaela Copy Editor (Jun 3, 2015)

I've noticed that many writers don't seem to think they need an editor, anymore. They will have their friends, family, and beta readers look over it (who will inevitably catch some errors) and then they will go over it, themselves. For some unfortunate reason, they think that's enough! I always say no matter how well you think you know what you're doing, you simply cannot edit your own work. You know what you're trying to say, so it's easy to skip over errors or anything that would confuse someone who doesn't. I'm an editor and I plan to hire another editor if I ever decide to publish.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

I'm a hardcore gamer and you wouldn't believe how many developers release buggy games. I'm talking save game destroying, progress halting, and sometimes downright hilarious bugs. The funny thing -- the average gamer doesn't care! Sure, they whine and a patch is eventually released, but they keep buying new games from said developers.  

Like everyone else here -- I don't mind a few typos. Stuff happens. I've never read a perfect book. Just do your best, buy "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers", hire an editor and two proofreaders, and move on. Art is never finished, only abandoned.


----------



## Cara Quinlan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mikaela (ASUE) said:


> I've noticed that many writers don't seem to think they need an editor, anymore. They will have their friends, family, and beta readers look over it (who will inevitably catch some errors) and then they will go over it, themselves. For some unfortunate reason, they think that's enough! I always say no matter how well you think you know what you're doing, you simply cannot edit your own work. You know what you're trying to say, so it's easy to skip over errors or anything that would confuse someone who doesn't. I'm an editor and I plan to hire another editor if I ever decide to publish.


Ditto. A thorough line edit -- or if you don't have the budget for that, at least a good copy edit -- is one of the best things you can do for your manuscript. Your readers will thank you.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Cara Quinlan said:


> Ditto. A thorough line edit -- or if you don't have the budget for that, at least a good copy edit -- is one of the best things you can do for your manuscript. Your readers will thank you.


You also have to be careful about who you hire. I had an editor once who made the changes instead of highlighting them, which I prefer. She actually rewrote the sentences herself and it changed the whole tone of the story. Even someone doing a full edit rather than just a line edit doesn't usually make the changes themselves, or at least ones I worked with in the past didn't. My editor was a little too thorough and I wound up with a story I couldn't use.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I feel the same way as the OP, and here are two things that surprise me:

1. Best-selling authors like Michael Connelly with glaring typos (not a lot, but they're there). For example, John Sandford, Storm Front, "That's not the way I role." _Fluency_, top seller: "pushed a stand of hair behind her ear." And a logic error by someone who I won't name "... was hatless, holding a copy of the Chicago _Herald-Tribune_ over his head, the other gripping the handle of his bag."

2. Books with errors in the very first sentence of the book. And errors in the first page aren't unusual. If anything could possibly be seen as an error in the early part of my book, I change it. One reader told me "one of the smartest persons in the room ..." should be "one of the smartest people in the room ..." was wrong. I disagreed, but I wrote around it in case others might see it as an error "... the smartest person in the room."

-------------------------

I'd tell the author about these, because that's what I'd want, but I don't think people appreciate it. *Do you ever report errors in published books? Do you appreciate it when someone does for your books?*

I have to read my book six times to catch all the errors and still some slip through. Contact Us has "hanger" instead of "hangar" in two places, and I'll be fixing it with the next revision.


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Was the book you read 50 Shades of Grey by any chance?


Ha ha, no it wasn't 50 Shades of Grey. The book I read actually had a fantastic story that I thoroughly enjoyed, which is why I kept reading despite all the mistakes. When I picked up the next one in the series I hoped that maybe after the success of the first one the editing would be better, but alas, no. It was just as bad, if not worse *sigh* Now I'm struggling to compel myself to finish the second book and seriously considering returning it for a refund  It's so rare that I find a book I can't enjoy, even if the story isn't as great as it could be, or the editing leaves a little to be desired.


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

J.T. Williams said:


> I agree with this. A few typos happen. A few per page for 300 pages.... err... yeah, no good.


Exactly. A few errors here and there I can understand and overlook, no big deal. But when they just keep cropping up like little hammer-wielding gnomes that bonk me on the head and jolt me out of the story, it becomes hard to ignore.


----------



## Cara Quinlan (Jan 8, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> You also have to be careful about who you hire. I had an editor once who made the changes instead of highlighting them, which I prefer. She actually rewrote the sentences herself and it changed the whole tone of the story. Even someone doing a full edit rather than just a line edit doesn't usually make the changes themselves, or at least ones I worked with in the past didn't. My editor was a little too thorough and I wound up with a story I couldn't use.


Yes, absolutely. Your editor should be using Track Changes or some equivalent so that you can see every single edit that was made, and choose whether or not you want to apply them to your manuscript. You should also get samples from several people to find the best fit...not everyone is necessarily a good match!


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Here's an email I wrote to Michael Connelly's publisher. I wrote it because the error interfered with my reading, and I was hoping that they could fix the error in the future. Maybe it's a gray area, but it definitely makes the books harder to read.

---------------

Could you please pass this on to either Michael Connelly or his publisher?

There is an important grammar/formatting error present in at least two of Connelly's books. Here is an example, from page 152 of the hardcover version of _The Burning Room_:

"Ricky stayed until you got Ojeda to break. He said you were a 'true gator' and didn't need any help from him. What's that mean?"

Bosch shrugged.

"I don't know. He looks too young to have been in Vietnam."

The way that is formatted, the paragraph break indicates that Soto spoke, Bosch shrugged, and then Soto said "I don't know." From the context, I know that that is not what is intended. There are very clearcut rules about this. If it's Bosch who says "I don't know," then it should be formatted like this:

"Ricky stayed until you got Ojeda to break. He said you were a 'true gator' and didn't need any help from him. What's that mean?"

Bosch shrugged. "I don't know. He looks too young to have been in Vietnam."

I wouldn't mention this, but it happens frequently (several times per chapter), and it's annoying. I often have to stop to figure out who is saying what.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

I've never dropped a book because poor editing. Then again, I've never read a book with a million typos lol

I drop stuff for silly reasons. Like if I see, "she cried, he barked, she hissed, he chirped" more than a few times, the book is basically dead in my eyes.


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

TromboneAl said:


> Here's an email I wrote to Michael Connelly's publisher. I wrote it because the error interfered with my reading, and I was hoping that they could fix the error in the future. Maybe it's a gray area, but it definitely makes the books harder to read.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> ...


Great example of an error that is, to put it mildly, distracting. It actually changes the story, doesn't it?


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

geronl said:


> I agree. I'd do that privately.


Agreed. I'd never call out someone by name in any kind of public forum, that's just asking for trouble, not to mention, disrespectful. But I have reservations about doing it privately too - you never know how someone is going to take it. They may be cool and calm about it, and even grateful that you pointed out something that slipped past them, or they may fly off the deep end. We've all seen instances of authors losing their cool in a spectacularly horrendous-and very public-way, and we've all heard the stories about authors getting their books bombed with 1-star reviews in retaliation for something they said. It's a sad state of affairs when we become too afraid of the repercussions to even offer help to one another for fear of being harassed.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Al Stevens said:


> Start at home.


To be fair to the op very few of us should have our editing skills judged by our kboard posts. I'm sure most of us pay more attention to our books.


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

TromboneAl said:


> I wouldn't mention this, but it happens frequently (several times per chapter), and it's annoying. I often have to stop to figure out who is saying what.


I've run across that kind of thing a few times as well, and yeah, it can get pretty confusing. I'll have to go back one or two times and reread it to make sense of who is saying what. I like authors who don't end every piece of dialogue with "he said" or "she said" (and am striving to streamline my own dialogue in the same way), but it's still good to be clean on who is saying what.


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Because we live in an internet age, because people grow up with spell-check and auto-correct, because no one considers discipline such as diagramming and spelling drills to be necessary, we have two generations of readers who don't know the difference. Please don't jump down my throat; I know that's a far-reaching generalization. Excellent English still exists. However, a great story sells well simply due to that fact it's a great story. Some readers know the rules, and catch the errors as they read, but the majority remember nothing but the story. I find myself writing a number of incomplete sentences. That's how the characters talk; that's how the protagonist thinks. It sounds right to the reader even though it grates on my nerves. Can you imagine the reaction of the average twenty-something to the use of the word 'whom' in a sentence? It may be correct when used as an object but would be laughable to that person. As for homonyms, one must know the difference to recognize it's the wrong word. After all, it sounds right.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Two of my beta readers told me that they're amazed at the care I take in getting good paid editing, as so many of the books they read are riddled with errors. These are your average readers, and they do notice the errors.


----------



## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

TromboneAl said:


> Here's an email I wrote to Michael Connelly's publisher.


I love that you said this, Al. I've read at least twenty Connelly books and EVERY SINGLE ONE does this. He just likes dialog to start on new lines like that and it's super distracting. But I love his books - they've inspired many of the police procedural elements in my series.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> To be fair to the op very few of us should have our editing skills judged by our kboard posts. I'm sure most of us pay more attention to our books.


Well, I have some bad eyesight and no beta reader for these posts.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> Because we live in an internet age, because people grow up with spell-check and auto-correct, because no one considers discipline such as diagramming and spelling drills to be necessary, we have two generations of readers who don't know the difference. Please don't jump down my throat; I know that's a far-reaching generalization. Excellent English still exists. However, a great story sells well simply due to that fact it's a great story. Some readers know the rules, and catch the errors as they read, but the majority remember nothing but the story. I find myself writing a number of incomplete sentences. That's how the characters talk; that's how the protagonist thinks. It sounds right to the reader even though it grates on my nerves. Can you imagine the reaction of the average twenty-something to the use of the word 'whom' in a sentence? It may be correct when used as an object but would be laughable to that person. As for homonyms, one must know the difference to recognize it's the wrong word. After all, it sounds right.


I really do believe readers don't get enough credit. I bet most know the difference between sale and sail, or waste and waist. I bet most writers know, too. They just get in a hurry and type the wrong word. I've written were instead of we're many times. I'm always glad when I do an edit and catch that.


----------



## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> Because we live in an internet age, because people grow up with spell-check and auto-correct, because no one considers discipline such as diagramming and spelling drills to be necessary, we have two generations of readers who don't know the difference. Please don't jump down my throat; I know that's a far-reaching generalization. Excellent English still exists. *However, a great story sells well simply due to that fact it's a great story. Some readers know the rules, and catch the errors as they read, but the majority remember nothing but the story. *I find myself writing a number of incomplete sentences. That's how the characters talk; that's how the protagonist thinks. It sounds right to the reader even though it grates on my nerves. Can you imagine the reaction of the average twenty-something to the use of the word 'whom' in a sentence? It may be correct when used as an object but would be laughable to that person. As for homonyms, one must know the difference to recognize it's the wrong word. After all, it sounds right.


I agree. Some people read for the writing, while others read for the story. IMHO, the general public falls into the second category. And there's nothing wrong with that. Honestly, I pick up books for the story too.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Now I read a book once that had it been audio, it would have been absolutely fantastic well until it got to the end.    Every apostrophe was wrong along with a ton of homonym problems. There were other problems too but not that the average reader would notice.
I actually talked to the author who told me point blank that "other authors say that spelling and grammar don't matter and I don't notice errors so no one else will either."

I do hope that author found the help he/she needed because he/she was a fabulous story teller.


----------



## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

I have a really nit-picky editor. Her average of catching the mistakes an editor is supposed to hovers around 97%. She hates that - she works to make the error rate even smaller.

I think editing is important. Really important. It's something you need to do. I cannot tell you how many things I just missed. They were right there in front of me, in black and white, and I glossed right over them.

We're too close. I have two betas who I tell to give me the red pen treatment. Everyone who reads my stuff pre-pub is strongly encouraged to use Track Changes.

I notice errors in other books - but unless I can't even picture a character speaking in a certain way, or the spelling errors are too glaring, I go right over them.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> It's a very far-reaching generalisation. I would argue that more and more people now have the educational opportunities to be discerning about grammar. I'm twenty-four. Diagramming and spelling drills were an important part of my education. Yes, I grew up with the internet, but shockingly, I didn't spend my school days typing random things into a computer and hoping spell-check would fix the mess. On the other hand, none of my four grandparents went to school beyond the age of ten, because that was when they all had to start working on their respective farms. Only one is still alive; she is a very intelligent woman who absolutely cannot spell to save her life.
> 
> Plenty of people my age are in love with good grammar; equally, plenty are not. The same can be seen across many generations. Lack of good grammar is not something that just came about in recent years. Look at census forms, court documents etc from a hundred years ago, and you will all find yourselves cringing at the grammar and spelling of your ancestors. Now, we are living in a better-educated world, a world both better equipped to write using proper grammar and to spot errors in the writings of others.
> 
> tl;dr: Please stop blaming my generation for bad grammar. One can find examples of both terrible and excellent grammar in all age groups.


I agree with everything you said and don't blame your generation for bad grammar. I do slightly blame them for the overuse of acronyms, however. Yesterday I said something someone found amusing and they actually said lol. I mean, you don't have to do that when you're standing right next to me. I can hear you laugh. Also, why BFF? If we truly care about our best friend we can take the time to say "You're my best friend forever." That sounds more touching anyway. Just saying.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I agree with everything you said and don't blame your generation for bad grammar. I do slightly blame them for the overuse of acronyms, however. Yesterday I said something someone found amusing and they actually said lol. I mean, you don't have to do that when you're standing right next to me. I can hear you laugh.


My daughter is the world's worst about making up acronyms only she understands. Then she wonders why no one will answer her acronyms.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> My daughter is the world's worst about making up acronyms only she understands. Then she wonders why no one will answer her acronyms.


The other day it took me a while to figure out KWIM. It drives me nuts.


----------



## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Given the number of conversations about this that I've read here over the years, I think the proper question to be posed is "why is editing not important to some?" It clearly is important to a very large part of our membership and I can't say that the books I read, mostly by authors here, to be riddled with errors.
> 
> Betsy


I agree with Betsy. I've been binge-reading books by KBoarders and other indie authors recently. I read a sample first. If there aren't glaring errors in the sample and I'm interested in the book, I buy it. In these books, I rarely find grammatical errors or misspellings. I've been extremely impressed with how well-edited these books are.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Q


carinasanfey said:


> tl;dr: Please stop blaming my generation for bad grammar. One can find examples of both terrible and excellent grammar in all age groups.


My 19-year old grandson, whose emails used to be full of text-speak and which I could barely read is now a grammar and spelling Nazi who goes to Swarthmore. A granddaughter loves to text, and also loves language, and knows when to use text speak and when not to.

I try to avoid generalizations. In general. 

As for the New York Times, my friends in the newspaper business frequently decry the loss of copyeditors--cut way back due to financial concerns. (I wonder if the Washington Post hired any more after Jeff Bezos's infusion of cash?)

Betsy


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> The other day it took me a while to figure out KWIM. It drives me nuts.


Is that a radio station?


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Is that a radio station?


It stands for Know what I mean. At least that's what google says. I'm waiting for the first indie so desperate to write fast they create an entire novel written in acronyms. It's coming. I just know it.


----------



## MissingAlaska (Apr 28, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> Because we live in an internet age, because people grow up with spell-check and auto-correct, because no one considers discipline such as diagramming and spelling drills to be necessary, we have two generations of readers who don't know the difference. Please don't jump down my throat; I know that's a far-reaching generalization. Excellent English still exists. However, a great story sells well simply due to that fact it's a great story. Some readers know the rules, and catch the errors as they read, but the majority remember nothing but the story. I find myself writing a number of incomplete sentences. That's how the characters talk; that's how the protagonist thinks. It sounds right to the reader even though it grates on my nerves. Can you imagine the reaction of the average twenty-something to the use of the word 'whom' in a sentence? It may be correct when used as an object but would be laughable to that person. As for homonyms, one must know the difference to recognize it's the wrong word. After all, it sounds right.


This echoes my opinions exactly. I don't want to resurrect the fast-prodigious/slow-careful debate again, but some writers realize their particular readers don't care - so they go for output (and short-term dollars) over editing quality (and long-term viability). I think this boils down to "know your readers" and their expectations - and your own publishing goals.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> Totes lol kwim roflmao.


Okay, so I did have to googles totes, but I got the rest of that, lol


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> Totes lol kwim roflmao.


This seriously needs a 'Like' button


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

PaintedLady said:


> This seriously needs a 'Like' button


I'd no sooner gotten used to the rofl when they added the mao.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As for the New York Times, my friends in the newspaper business frequently decry the loss of copyeditors-


Nah, they are professionals, they never make mistakes....


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> Please stop blaming my generation for bad grammar. One can find examples of both terrible and excellent grammar in all age groups.


This. Totally. One generation or another cannot be blamed for bad grammar/spelling. I consider both of my parents very smart people-they're both well-read and have had successful careers despite never going to college, but neither one of them is all that great at spelling. I give my dad a bit more leeway seeing as he's mildly dyslexic, but every once in a while I catch myself cringing over something they write.

Oh, and kinda related to the whole net/text speak thing, I have to confess that I think it's the cutest thing when my mum calls it "THE Facebook." Totes adorbs.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

carinasanfey said:


> I want to print this post out as little leaflets and hand them out whenever I hear people using 'lol' and 'bff' in spoken conversation.


You should. I would also blame your generation for the popularity of reality television, but my forty year old sister watches them, too.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

geronl said:


> Nah, they are professionals, they never make mistakes....


*snort*

I wonder what paper that is? Kinda looks like the Post layout... 

My reporter friends would blame the headline writers for that...

Betsy


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I wrote the post that brought up the generation issue. I need to correct what I wrote to more closely match my thinking. This is definitely not a generational issue. It is a lifestyle issue. So many of us just don't take the time to learn all the mechanics of English, and so many of us are in too big a rush to care. Most schools do not push this, including many who no longer teach cursive writing. Perhaps they have too much else to teach. Technology has made it unnecessary or, at least, unimportant to write carefully. It doesn't make any difference if you're 16 or 60. So, if you're younger than I am, please don't be offended. I have many friends my age who don't write well either.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

PaintedLady said:


> This. Totally. One generation or another cannot be blamed for bad grammar/spelling. I consider both of my parents very smart people--they're both well-read and have had successful careers despite never going to college, but neither one of them is all that great at spelling. I give my dad a bit more leeway seeing as he's mildly dyslexic, but every once in a while I catch myself cringing over something they write.
> 
> Oh, and kinda related to the whole net/text speak thing, I have to confess that I think it's the cutest thing when my mum calls it "THE Facebook." Totes adorbs.


Oh my God. There's an adorbs? No one told me. I don't need to look it up, though. I'll take a shot in the dark and say it stands for adorable.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> ROFLMAO! TITFFTIHESIML!


You've actually stumped google. congrats.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Y iz it sew f'ing HOT!!!!!!! no can tipe write.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> *snort*
> 
> I wonder what paper that is? Kinda looks like the Post layout...
> 
> ...


_East Oregonian_, some of these smaller papers might not have guys who only write headlines.

http://jimromenesko.com/2015/06/09/east-oregonian-editor-calls-amphibious-pitcher-headline-just-kind-of-a-silly-mistake/


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> TITFFTIHESIML!


That just rolls right off the tongue/fingers... or not


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

geronl said:


> Well, I have some bad eyesight and no beta reader for these posts.


Don't you know you should never post on Kboards without a beta reader looking it over first?


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Y iz it sew f'ing HOT!!!!!!! no can tipe write.


rofleh (rolling on floor laughing extra hard) Now I'll just sit back and wait for the E and H to catch on.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Don't you know you should never post on Kboards without a beta reader looking it over first?


_Naeun joesonghabnida_ - as Google would translate to Korean. I know _Na_ means Me or I in Korean and_ nida_ is a polite way to end a sentence, the rest I can't seem to remember on my own.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

And don't get me started on the TV news. The national news often gets a "very unique" into the broadcast, but the local news here is the worst.

One of the anchors reported, "A man drove his car off the highway, and spent three days in the bottom of a raven."


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

*The Allen specie invades Earth from above the plain of the elliptic! *

Spell-checker says it is okay!


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

geronl said:


> *The Allen specie invades Earth from above the plain of the elliptic! *
> 
> Spell-checker says it is okay!


That sums it up nicely.

Spell checking doesn't replace good proofreading, and never should.

The thing that gets me, is best sellers which land on Kindle, are also full of glaring lack of proof reading errors. The Harry Potter series is one of them. I didn't pick a single error in the books, but the Kindle versions have my nose twitching semi-regularly. It's like the Kindle versions are pre-editing or something.

I'm lucky. I have a writer relative who has a higher standard than I do. I can proofread pretty well, but it helps to have someone with better word skills as well. (Two wells in a sentence - must edit.  )


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> That sums it up nicely.
> 
> Spell checking doesn't replace good proofreading, and never should.
> 
> ...


I am betting Harry Potter was scanned from a hardback. Those are not typos, they are OCR errors from the scanning.
OCR is optical character reader.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> The Harry Potter series is one of them. I didn't pick a single error in the books


That book (probably all of them) were probably gone through with a fine-toothed comb. I wonder what the first ever edition of the first book looked like?


----------



## mickeywrites981 (May 9, 2015)

I picked up Fifty Shades of Grey ready for the book of all books. But I had to put it down for this reason alone. I think that because its so easy to hit submit that some people feel they do not need and editor. I wish I had that confidence. I for one need and love working with an editor. Like you I want the best possible work to be put out there, but when is good good enough? This is the reason its taken so long for me to get things together and take the leap. Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this.

Thanks for sharing!! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## henderson (Jul 14, 2014)

Editing can be very expensive, especially if a writer hires an editor to do a developmental edit, a copy edit, and a proof read.  It can become much more expensive if the writer hires more than one editor to review the manuscript.

I have read on these boards that many newly published authors have tried to do the best they can with self-editing and relying on friends and family to catch the errors.  They realize their books need to be polished a bit more, but they simply can't afford paying editors.  They hope if the books sell well, then they would pay editors to edit the books.

Paying for an editor can be a very expensive proposition, especially for authors with limited financial resources.


----------



## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

1. I love the phrase *totes adorbs*, and yes, I do use it. But only on the internet. :-D

2. This whole discussion just for some reason makes me remember with gratitude how easy it now is to look up definitions of words. I remember when you had to get out a dictionary every single time to check if you'd spelled a word correctly. It was distracting and irritating, and any dictionary actually easy enough to lift often didn't have enough words in it, and there was always that one pesky thing you needed missing. I love Googling a word and finding definitions and spellings within seconds. I also love the spellcheck that highlights mistakes as I'm writing. It's not perfect, but it helped me improve a lot.

3. Editors are also awesome. And this thread is hilarious (where intended; deep and meaningful where that's intended).


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ereaders also have dictionaries.  It is a big help.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

HSh said:


> 2. This whole discussion just for some reason makes me remember with gratitude how easy it now is to look up definitions of words. I remember when you had to get out a dictionary every single time to check if you'd spelled a word correctly. It was distracting and irritating, and any dictionary actually easy enough to lift often didn't have enough words in it, and there was always that one pesky thing you needed missing. I love Googling a word and finding definitions and spellings within seconds. I also love the spellcheck that highlights mistakes as I'm writing. It's not perfect, but it helped me improve a lot.


Google is definitely my friend. Half the time, Word's spell checker has no idea what I'm trying to type. So I stick it into google, and it usually comes up with the correct spelling for me.

I also lean a lot this way. Word auto-corrects a word and I look at it and think its wrong. So I google it. I've leant a lot about word meanings checking words out this way. And sometimes, the blooper you find reads hilariously.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

What I love about Google on the tablet is I can just tap the microphone and ask how to spell something.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

PaintedLady said:


> This. Totally. One generation or another cannot be blamed for bad grammar/spelling. I consider both of my parents very smart people--they're both well-read and have had successful careers despite never going to college, but neither one of them is all that great at spelling. I give my dad a bit more leeway seeing as he's mildly dyslexic, but every once in a while I catch myself cringing over something they write.
> 
> Oh, and kinda related to the whole net/text speak thing, I have to confess that I think it's the cutest thing when my mum calls it "THE Facebook." Totes adorbs.


To be fair to your mom it was originally called The Facebook and then Mark Z decided to shorten it to just Facebook. She is almost right. We old people know a little something.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

HSh said:


> 2. This whole discussion just for some reason makes me remember with gratitude how easy it now is to look up definitions of words.


Yes, it's amazing. Plus grammar questions, checking if something is one word or two, and research. How did they get anything done in the old days?

------------------------

And my favorite typo, from Jay Leno's Headlines:

In a cooking article:

Whip up something from things you find in your panty!


----------



## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

This whole thread is making me want to go listen to that Word Crimes song by Wierd Al.  Also, I don't know about out and out grammar errors, but I've picked up six books in the past week and pretty much tossed them all after the first few pages. Either the writer wasn't consistent with is voice, the story didn't hook me well enough to look past paragraphs that covered the whole page (in the smallest type I could read on my kindle) or the writing was so choppy that I kept having to go back and check who was doing what and why. GAH.


----------



## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I guess some people do not care but the amount of people with badly edited books that make it to being full time writers is a very slim number.

I'm spending the money out of pocket with my first book to work with a great editor. As your stories and writing skills grow your books will only get better, but you still won't be able to sell them if people only remember how bad the typos were when you started.


----------



## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

People who don't care about editing don't care about writing.


----------



## Lindy Moone (Oct 19, 2012)

Chris Fox said:


> I'm mortified by the number of typos that slipped through on No Mere Zombie. I employed a writing coach, a content editor, a line editor and a proof reader. There were still an embarassing number of typos, and I had to hire someone after the fact to go back in and clean it up.
> 
> Part of my problem is publishing speed. I'm putting out content really fast. Part of my problem is not having built a great team of editors (yet). Part of it is process.
> 
> ...


This.
Seems to me that Indies are under enormous pressure to publish fast and often; many need to do that in order to build up enough cash to afford editing! Catch-22. So I grit my teeth and read on if there are typos, but ONLY if the story and writing are otherwise wonderful. If I have access to an Indie author whose typo-riddled book I love, I contact them, tell them how much I loved the book, and ask if they would like my list of the typos -- because my editing alter ego (Miss Prissy) highlights them as she reads. (It's a sickness, I know!) Every single Indie author I've contacted this way has graciously responded with gratitude for the help and support. (And if anyone finds typos or other errors in my books, please let me know and I will fix them ASAP. I have wonderful betas and many eyes see my work, but typos can reproduce by cell division, I swear.)

I am less forgiving of all the typos in trad published books. I feel especially disrespected when publishers (for, let's say, Terry Pratchett's Discworld series) don't give a damn about the quality of the ebook -- don't even provide a real cover for the lowly Kindle models! -- but still charge top dollar for it. Their authors and readers are being disrespected and cheated. Do you think those publishers are mortified by their mistakes and business decisions? Nope.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Yes. If you find typo's please tell me.

I should add that to my ebooks.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

geronl said:


> Yes. If you find typo's please tell me.
> 
> I should add that to my ebooks.


I don't explicitly ask for that, but I do link my novels to a forum of mine where they can post anything to me.

If anyone points out something I miss,I will be mortified and make haste to correct it.

Unfortunately as someone here recently pointed out, when you change the book after first publishing, most of the time, none of the already purchased copies get updated.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Lol... That's awesome.
> 
> Actually, it might make a good basis for a science fiction story...
> 
> ...












Edit: When you write it let me know. I'd probably like it.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Very nice!


----------



## archaeoroutes (Oct 12, 2014)

Looking at that picture of the amphibious pitcher, he does seem to have rather webbed fingers...


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> _Buddy_ has a genetic engineering theme, by the way, and it's a free download. Just saying.


Right, I will get that. I am sure I will read it at some point.


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

I guess we all agree that editing is crucial to good writing.

As for readers pointing out mistakes to writers -- I'm grateful when somebody puts the effort to write to me and tell me there's a mistake in my book. I know they are only trying to help. And you only want to help when you *care*.

And so I think: "Well, this person has a life: they're busy, have kids, a job, responsibilities, and they still take *time* to write to *me* to inform me of a mistake in my work?"

Wow  &#8230; How do I react? I'm grateful to the bone&#8230;


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

TimothyEllis said:


> Unfortunately as someone here recently pointed out, when you change the book after first publishing, most of the time, none of the already purchased copies get updated.


With Amazon. It varies by retailer, for example a Smashwords Store purchaser may download an update after the day of their purchase. Kobo does auto-updates, I had one from Hugh Howey recently (actually his UK publisher), but there is no opt-in for them. With Libiro the publisher may choose to have the updated file sent to previous purchasers automatically. I'm not aware of dates being able to get updates from Nook or Apple.


----------



## KBDeni (Feb 18, 2015)

I think a lack of editing really comes down to two things.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Some readers will overlook typos/errors when it's a good story. There are writers who rely on this. That's why there are error ridden books still on best seller lists. Some readers just do not care as much as others.
[*]Money. Editing is expensive, and not everyone can afford it. I am holding off on publishing a book that I finished self-editing a month ago just because I don't have enough for professional editing. The second book will likely be finished before I can afford it. Some writers aren't so patient to wait and save, especially new writers.
[/list]

In the end, it is safer to try and get your books edited. Unfortunately, some writers just don't see it as a necessity.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

KBDeni said:


> Money. Editing is expensive, and not everyone can afford it. I am holding off on publishing a book that I finished self-editing a month ago just because I don't have enough for professional editing. The second book will likely be finished before I can afford it. Some writers aren't so patient to wait and save, especially new writers.


Whats the going rate for editing services these days?
And what extra are they doing beyond proof reading for that?


----------



## KBDeni (Feb 18, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Whats the going rate for editing services these days?
> And what extra are they doing beyond proof reading for that?


Most of the rates I've seen for copy editing has been between .005 and .009 cents a word. Which means for a novel of about 80k words, you can expect to pay at least $400. For people with lower income, that can be a lot.

Proofreading is much cheaper, but it means the editor will only really look for typos and minor grammatical errors. Other issues like plot inconsistencies, repetition, and mis-use of words may get overlooked.

This is how I understand it anyway. I'm still new at this and have yet to actually order editing, but from what I've seen that's how it goes. I may actually have this all wrong.


----------



## Pkmatrix (Sep 22, 2012)

IMO, most of it is that we're more sensitive and aware of typos and errors than we were in the past.  It's the same thing with movies today:  watch a movie made 20 or more years ago and you'll be amazed at how many continuity errors you'll spot.  Back then it didn't matter because few would catch it on the first try and, generally, you didn't watch it more than once (the theatrical release).  When the '80s hit and VHS made movies rewatchable, people started noticing but it didn't become an issue Hollywood actually cared about until the Internet came around in the '90s.

Basically the same thing with errors and books.  Before you might notice on your own and maybe discuss it with your reading group or class, assuming anyone else spotted it.  Now?  Now we have the Internet and Computers, so people expect perfection from and will shout to the high heavens when things aren't.

And to be perfectly honest, the most error-ridden books I've read have been traditionally published.  I think my mind glosses over them with indie books because I expect it, but they're absolutely GLARING whenever I find them in a paper book I just paid $12.99 for at Barnes and Noble.


----------



## M. Fox (Oct 16, 2014)

Copyediting and proofreading are professional skills. Yes, everyone can read something and point out the errors they find, but an editorial professional is much better at this task than the average person, because of years of experience (reading hundreds of manuscripts) and feedback from supervisors--meaning people with equal or better editorial skills. Margaret Atwood said it best: "Everyone can dig a hole in a cemetery, but not everyone is a gravedigger."

When you are looking for a copyeditor or proofreader, ask candidates about the clients and employers they have worked for. Has anyone besides an author vetted their skills? Many authors have no idea whether a copyeditor has done a good job for them, because their field of expertise is storytelling, not grammar, spelling, and punctuation. A copyeditor should be an expert in those things, as well as an expert at conforming manuscripts to a given style guide (or custom style) and evaluating manuscripts for clarity, consistency, logic, and diction. He or she should also be diplomatic, flexible, and, above all, respectful toward the author and the author's preferences.

If the copyeditor does not charge professional rates ($30/hour and up; .6 cents/word and up), ask him or her why. Is this job just something the person does for fun as a hobby because he or she likes reading? Ask yourself if you would pay someone substandard rates to rewire your house because the person likes doing electrical work for entertainment. Generally, when you hire someone for a specialized skill, you get what you pay for--because professionals know what their skills are worth on the market and they want to be paid fairly for them. Plus--and this is no small factor--their livelihood depends on doing top-quality work for their clients. They want repeat business from people who are happy to hire them.

A professional copyedit of your book will help raise it to a professional level. It will not improve the storytelling--that is your job--but it can make your book much more appealing to readers and gatekeepers. One of my clients from Kboards had a book rejected for a promotion before hiring me to work on it. The copyedited manuscript was then accepted by the promotion service that had rejected it before. 

A caveat: Hiring a professional does not mean that your finished manuscript will be perfect. No copyeditor or proofreader will find 100% of the errors. But he or she should find 99% of them.


----------



## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

I didn't want to quote what Marianne said, but yeah, what she said. I mean, I just got a manuscript back from an editor and now I'm having to go through and explain WHY the editor is wrong about almost everything marked. Sigh.

All I can say is: get a Chicago Manual of Style and know your rules of grammar. Don't believe everything an editor says.

The only time I back down is for "House Rules" where a publishing house has strict rules about some words or grammar peculiarities. Grammar and spelling isn't always clearly one way or the wrong way, so sometimes you just have to go with the "House Rules." 

But regardless, writers need to understand writing and grammar. It's their craft. And a good editor and even better proofreader are both worth their weight in gold. If you know folks who will do this for you, free of charge, then great. If you don't, well, I think it's a necessary expense for a professional, finished product.

Readers expect and deserve a decent product, especially if they have to pay money for it.


----------



## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

Aquatic baseball--a new sport.

I see that kind of thing more and more. Sadly, I HEAR that kind of thing from politicians and news people more and more, too. I was having a discussion last night about the failure of our educational system. I just hope that folks here can find ways to get their work edited even on a shoestring to avoid at least the obvious mistakes. (Unfortunately, even obvious mistakes can be hidden from a writer because our minds are so good at supplying what we think should be there instead of what is there.)

Sigh.


Jeff Tanyard said:


> Lol... That's awesome.
> 
> Actually, it might make a good basis for a science fiction story...
> 
> ...


----------



## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> I'd no sooner gotten used to the rofl when they added the mao.


Back in my day it was ROTFLMAO. Now, all the young'uns have gotten so careless with their acronyms they've dropped the "T."


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

RN_Wright said:


> Back in my day it was ROTFLMAO. Now, all the young'uns have gotten so careless with their acronyms they've dropped the "T."


I remember the T


----------



## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

It's not the typos that get me - it's the lack of plot and basic and basic idea of how to structure a novel.

Most of the indie books I've read recently have been typo-free, with no homophones (instant book-closure) and good sentence construction. But they've all suffered from a lack of structural editing. Stories that wander the leafy lanes of the author's imagination, scenes which have no relevance to anything, descriptions of getting up, going to bed etc. But no pace, no tension, no plot. I get to the end and feel I've wasted several hours of my life.


----------



## PaintedLady (Mar 27, 2014)

henderson said:


> Editing can be very expensive, especially if a writer hires an editor to do a developmental edit, a copy edit, and a proof read. It can become much more expensive if the writer hires more than one editor to review the manuscript.
> 
> I have read on these boards that many newly published authors have tried to do the best they can with self-editing and relying on friends and family to catch the errors. They realize their books need to be polished a bit more, but they simply can't afford paying editors. They hope if the books sell well, then they would pay editors to edit the books.
> 
> Paying for an editor can be a very expensive proposition, especially for authors with limited financial resources.


I agree, hiring an editor can be very expensive, and does tend to be a bit of a roadblock for a lot of us self-pubbed authors, especially those just starting out. It is not, however, an excuse for putting out a sub-standard finished product. There are lots of other resources available at a very reasonable cost that can be utilized as part of the editing process. I use Pro Writing Aid as part of my editing process to weed out a lot of errors and clean-up my draft before it goes to my editor. It's a $40/year subscription and well worth the investment. It also, over time and through continued use, has helped me to improve my writing in general just by making me more aware of the kinds of patterns I fall into.

Just because an author doesn't have a lot of money to spend on editing doesn't mean it has to be done poorly. The main complaint I had in my original post was that I'm seeing a ton of errors from authors that I *know* have access to plenty of quality editing resources and _still _end up with a finished product that is riddled with mistakes. I expect there to be a certain percentage of errors that come through, no one is perfect, and you'll always be able to find something to tweak or change even after 100 passes through a manuscript. But it seems to me, that it's almost become a pandemic in some ways. Authors either don't care, are under too much pressure to get books out as quickly as possible, or assume that their readers are too stupid to know the difference between "there" and "their."


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

DebBennett said:


> It's not the typos that get me - it's the lack of plot and basic and basic idea of how to structure a novel.
> 
> Most of the indie books I've read recently have been typo-free, with no homophones (instant book-closure) and good sentence construction. But they've all suffered from a lack of structural editing. Stories that wander the leafy lanes of the author's imagination, scenes which have no relevance to anything, descriptions of getting up, going to bed etc. But no pace, no tension, no plot. I get to the end and feel I've wasted several hours of my life.


I have read stories where it's obvious the author is just trying to reach a certain word count. Five pages of the main character doing dishes, then going to the basement and doing laundry or whatever. Forget 90k if that's how you get there. Give me 50k and leave out the boring filler.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I trade proofreading with a wonderful critique partner. I read her book and she reads mine. We're both "into" grammar. That works great. My latest is only 15K words and hers will be 90K, but it's still a worthwhile trade for me.


----------



## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm lucky enough to have a seriously hardcore Russkie Professor of English who specializes in teaching creative writing for a SO. 
The world's harshest critics. Nuff said


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Just got to thinking, I might read one poorly written book by an author but I won't buy another from that author.  I am  not going to waste my money.


----------



## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

DebBennett said:


> It's not the typos that get me - it's the lack of plot and basic and basic idea of how to structure a novel.
> 
> Most of the indie books I've read recently have been typo-free, with no homophones (instant book-closure) and good sentence construction. But they've all suffered from a lack of structural editing. Stories that wander the leafy lanes of the author's imagination, scenes which have no relevance to anything, descriptions of getting up, going to bed etc. But no pace, no tension, no plot. I get to the end and feel I've wasted several hours of my life.


This. So very much this. I picked up six new books this week. Closed all but one because of plotting, voice, sentences that might be grammatically ok but still make me go HUH?, and a myriad of other issues. The story might or might not grab me, but even if it does, I close the book fairly quick if the execution is bleh. There are too many books and I have too little free time to force way through any of it.

Oh, and sagging middles and floppy endings make me not want to go BACK to an author who otherwise nailed it.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Bishoppess said:


> This. So very much this. I picked up six new books this week. Closed all but one because of plotting, voice, sentences that might be grammatically ok but still make me go HUH?, and a myriad of other issues. The story might or might not grab me, but even if it does, I close the book fairly quick if the execution is bleh. There are too many books and I have too little free time to force way through any of it.
> 
> Oh, and sagging middles and floppy endings make me not want to go BACK to an author who otherwise nailed it.


I read a trad book last week. The whole book was awesome until the ending. It was a complicated plot and everything just all of sudden got wrapped up in 10 pages and it was over before you saw the ending coming. I was so mad.


----------



## Jessie Jasen (May 30, 2015)

Somebody must have gotten tired writing…


----------



## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> Can you imagine the reaction of the average twenty-something to the use of the word 'whom' in a sentence? It may be correct when used as an object but would be laughable to that person.


No, it wouldn't. They would pass right over it, not thinking anything one way or another (because they don't know the difference). However, by doing so, that tiny piece of correctitude now would have one more chance of insinuating itself into that reader's brain by "osmosis."

Reading good writing really _does_ help to foster clearer thinking.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jessie Jasen said:


> Somebody must have gotten tired writing...


That's how it felt to me, like they were sick of the story and just wanted to be done.


----------



## Guest (Jun 12, 2015)

If I want to see the type of errors the OP pointed to, all I have to do is read this thread!

Seriously, I've observed that most Indies don't want to learn editing skills. How can one be a writer without editing skills? And for those who buy the myth that a writer cannot edit her own work, that's simply a way to hide behind lazy. Though there's some truth to the idea that others can spot things you miss, there's more truth to the idea that you can learn to spot those same things. Do you want to? Or do you wish to hire editing, thinking it's beneath you or beyond you or unbecoming of your exalted status as an author.


----------



## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Jessie Jasen said:


> I'm grateful when somebody puts the effort to write to me and tell me there's a mistake in my book. I know they are only trying to help. And you only want to help when you *care*.


What about the reader/reviewer who complains vociferously, in public or in private, either one, about a mistake that isn't? They point out a grammar or usage "mistake" that, in fact, is perfectly correct as written. And there's no correcting them back. They are absolutely _sure_ that what they say is correct, and are profoundly self-righteous in thinking that the author should be grateful for the help.


----------



## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

DanaE said:


> And for those who buy the myth that a writer cannot edit her own work, that's simply a way to hide behind lazy. Though there's some truth to the idea that others can spot things you miss, there's more truth to the idea that you can learn to spot those same things.


Absolutely!


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

DanaE said:


> If I want to see the type of errors the OP pointed to, all I have to do is read this thread!
> 
> Seriously, I've observed that most Indies don't want to learn editing skills. How can one be a writer without editing skills? And for those who buy the myth that a writer cannot edit her own work, that's simply a way to hide behind lazy. Though there's some truth to the idea that others can spot things you miss, there's more truth to the idea that you can learn to spot those same things. Do you want to? Or do you wish to hire editing, thinking it's beneath you or beyond you or unbecoming of your exalted status as an author.


Popcorn anyone? Also, that last sentence should have question mark. I also don't think you can hire editing, but you might like to hire an editor. I see what you mean about examples on this thread.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

DanaE said:


> If I want to see the type of errors the OP pointed to, all I have to do is read this thread!
> 
> Seriously, I've observed that most Indies don't want to learn editing skills. How can one be a writer without editing skills? And for those who buy the myth that a writer cannot edit her own work, that's simply a way to hide behind lazy. Though there's some truth to the idea that others can spot things you miss, there's more truth to the idea that you can learn to spot those same things. Do you want to? Or do you wish to hire editing, thinking it's beneath you or beyond you or unbecoming of your exalted status as an author.


If you mean that informal comments on a message board should be held to the same standard as work that is put forth as 'professional' and offered for sale, I can not disagree strongly enough. So let's just not go there at all, eh?



katrina46 said:


> Popcorn anyone? Also, that last sentence should have question mark. I also don't think you can hire editing, but you might like to hire an editor. I see what you mean about examples on this thread.


More firmly: let's NOT go there!  He/She without sin cast the first stone, and all that!


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Have some cinnamon rolls.
Agreeing with Ann so let's not turn around.
Now some authors that English is their 3rd or 4th language may not know they have errors and may possibly hire an "editor" that doesn't know the difference either.  Especially if it is one of those for $3 I will edits your book.
Yes I know there is a typo in the last sentence.  It is intentional.


----------



## Adair Hart (Jun 12, 2015)

DebBennett said:


> It's not the typos that get me - it's the lack of plot and basic and basic idea of how to structure a novel.
> 
> Most of the indie books I've read recently have been typo-free, with no homophones (instant book-closure) and good sentence construction. But they've all suffered from a lack of structural editing. Stories that wander the leafy lanes of the author's imagination, scenes which have no relevance to anything, descriptions of getting up, going to bed etc. But no pace, no tension, no plot. I get to the end and feel I've wasted several hours of my life.


I hired a developmental editor for this reason. I thought I was good to go in April, but got a developmental/copy editor based on the threads I had read here. The first phase of the developmental edit ended with a brutal letter.  She addressed the concerns you mentioned in great detail. I am glad she did, because I feel I have something much stronger now and my revision passed the second round two months later (more of a rewrite at that point!)


----------



## J.A. Cipriano (May 27, 2014)

I care, a lot. Every error someone finds in my work is like a dagger to my soul.

My last book, Hardboiled, went through several edits from me, two beta readers, another round of edits, developmental edit, another edit by me, line edit, another edit by me, proof read, final edit. 

Still, somehow, I confused "know" with "no" and left out (or inserted) key words in like 12 spots throughout the novel. 

If you have a better way of catching them, I'd love to hear it. 

Hell, in my first book which went through even more betas I still managed to write a line like 
"She hung his arm on the wall." instead of "She hung his art on the wall."

Talk about changing the meaning...


----------



## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

A lot of people who are confident in their writing tend to self-edit or pass it to family members who have some experience in editing. But I think more is needed in this regard. Stuff can and will slip through the cracks no matter how many times you read and edit your own stuff. Family members will 'get used to your writing', because they're reading your stuff/your style exclusively. So it may be hard to find glaring mistakes. Whereas most professional editors will read a wide range of writing styles, and thus will have a clearer perspective/fresher eyes than someone who only reads one type of writing style.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If you mean that informal comments on a message board should be held to the same standard as work that is put forth as 'professional' and offered for sale, I can not disagree strongly enough. So let's just not go there at all, eh?
> 
> More firmly: let's NOT go there!  He/She without sin cast the first stone, and all that!


Okay, I'll take the high road and recall my stone. Sorry.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I’ve spent most of my editing and writing career working for science and engineering organizations. Every document I receive for editing comes with a request to check for “grammar” and “typos.” I smile and nod because the truth is that I rarely receive a book or paper that contains more than a handful of grammar errors and typos. About 98% of my changes fall under style and usage. 

Fiction is no different. The biggest sentence-level problems aren’t “grammar and typos,” but nonstandard usage and (especially) awkward style or a style that’s inconsistent with the genre. A thriller is only thrilling, for example, when it’s fast-paced, and barebones prose is essential to forward momentum. Of course, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Not all books on the thriller spectrum have the same pace, and not everyone wants to write like Patterson.  

All this had led me to the conclusion that writers are better off using style to find and judge editors than “grammar and typos.” In other words, pick an exemplar of the style you strive for and tell your editor that you want your book to read like so-and-so’s. That’ll put you in a better position to judge the result too.

Which leads me to another canard that’s been waddling around here: newbies can’t tell good editing from bad. I don’t buy that. Anyone can tell good editing from bad by using Dean’s Quality of Editing Test (DQET). It’s simple to use: Read the edited version aloud. If it’s clearer and easier to read, your editor did a good job. If it’s not, he did a bad one. DQET complete.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

katrina46 said:


> Okay, I'll take the high road and recall my stone. Sorry.


Thank you.


----------



## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

katrina46 said:


> You also have to be careful about who you hire. I had an editor once who made the changes instead of highlighting them, which I prefer. She actually rewrote the sentences herself and it changed the whole tone of the story. Even someone doing a full edit rather than just a line edit doesn't usually make the changes themselves, or at least ones I worked with in the past didn't. My editor was a little too thorough and I wound up with a story I couldn't use.


Argh! I have had that happen to me too! It's so frustrating to find a good editor. I've hired "not so good" editors in the past but I think I've learned to have them submit a sample edit first, as well as an estimate.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I do think you can catch most of your own errors, with careful repetitive reading, but here's an example of something I never would have caught: A proofreader pointed out that I'd written "Tanya Harding" instead of "Tonya Harding." I never would have caught that, because I simply thought "Tanya" was her name.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If you mean that informal comments on a message board should be held to the same standard as work that is put forth as 'professional' and offered for sale, I can not disagree strongly enough. So let's just not go there at all, eh?
> 
> More firmly: let's NOT go there!  He/She without sin cast the first stone, and all that!


It always puzzled me that people complain about the incorrectness of thread comments as they are the equivalent of the first version of a scene before you go through the various stages of self-editing and maybe later professional editing.

Regarding your second paragraph, doesn't that breach forum decorum re religion?


----------



## Guest (Jun 12, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Popcorn anyone? Also, that last sentence should have question mark. I also don't think you can hire editing, but you might like to hire an editor. I see what you mean about examples on this thread.


A question does not always need a question mark. I'm sure you're familiar with that little technique, which infers a question is not asked with a rising tone. I see it quite often in fiction. My sentence was delivered more with mild accusation than one desiring an answer.


----------



## Guest (Jun 12, 2015)

TromboneAl said:


> I do think you can catch most of your own errors, with careful repetitive reading, but here's an example of something I never would have caught: A proofreader pointed out that I'd written "Tanya Harding" instead of "Tonya Harding." I never would have caught that, because I simply thought "Tanya" was her name.


Al, it's called "research" for a reason.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> Hmm, how about a laundry list?
> I want it to be in the style of Stephen King where there's backstory.
> The style of John Scalzi where there's military action.
> The style of Arthur C. Clarke where the stuff gets spacey.
> ...


In your dreams! and in mine and everyone else's (did I use that apostrophe right??)


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Hmm, how about a laundry list?
> I want it to be in the style of Stephen King where there's backstory.
> The style of John Scalzi where there's military action.
> The style of Arthur C. Clarke where the stuff gets spacey.
> ...


Nora Roberts does navel gazing? I'll have to check out some more of her books.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Regarding your second paragraph, doesn't that breach forum decorum re religion?


No. Just quoting -- well, paraphrasing, really -- from a well known piece of literature.



DanaE said:


> A question does not always need a question mark. I'm sure you're familiar with that little technique, which infers a question is not asked with a rising tone. I see it quite often in fiction. My sentence was delivered more with mild accusation than one desiring an answer.


But . . . really . . . don't go there. Don't argue pro or con . . . just. . . . (to put the earworm in your head) "Let it go, let it go. . . . "


----------



## VG2311 (May 1, 2015)

PaintedLady said:


> ....snip ...
> 
> Out of all the books I read over the past few weeks, only 3 of them didn't contain enough mistakes to make my eye start to twitch, and I credit that to the fact that they were all written by the same author. The books with the most mistakes? Written by someone who offers their services as an editor to other authors.
> 
> ...


Short answer, yes.

It appears everywhere that print appears. Misspelled words such as "orientate", seperate (and seperete) as well as the ubiquitous misuse of "their, they're and there", and of course; "your and you're".

I generally take the bus to work, it is far faster than driving and less stressful. It is a great way to start a workday. A few mornings ago, I heard a couple of fellow riders discussing this very subject. One person (in his 20's) said that he did in fact know the correct forms of words, however it is a pain when texting and typing and having to look for the apostrophe, this they use "there" and "your" for everything.

Spelling mistakes are even more insidious, since the author frequently swears up and down they spell checked the document.

Well, "soar" mistakenly used to denote a level of pain; "bear" used instead of "bare", and my favourite (grits teeth) "pore over" and "pour over". One pores over data looking for something; one will use milk to pour over cereal.

It is a combination of laziness, indifference and lack of knowledge. When I was in grade 7 and 8 in Canada, they taught grammar as a subject. That has gone by the wayside and now we have university graduates that can't produce a coherent document.


----------



## Roby (May 14, 2015)

VG2311 said:


> Short answer, yes.
> 
> It is a combination of laziness, indifference and lack of knowledge. When I was in grade 7 and 8 in Canada, they taught grammar as a subject. That has gone by the wayside and now we have university graduates that can't produce a coherent document.


It's not a recent phenomenon. When I worked for the academic publisher mumble-many years ago, there were numerous Ph.D.s who couldn't write. One of my academic editors called me once to ask who had given the author of a paper he was vetting for his journal his degree, because he wanted to call them and tell them to take it back. Not being able to produce a coherent document isn't new--it's just that now fewer people are participating in trying to make it coherent.

And while I'm in this topic, I have to share my favorite typo. It was in an erratum, and it read: "We are sorry for having called Sgt. John Robel a defective on the Philadelphia Police Force. He is a detective on the police farce."


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

VG2311 said:


> Short answer, yes.
> 
> It appears everywhere that print appears. Misspelled words such as "orientate", seperate (and seperete) as well as the ubiquitous misuse of "their, they're and there", and of course; "your and you're".
> 
> ...


I don't think much of it when someone isn't so great with grammar. I find they usually blow me away in math. At my old job we had to take periodic tests. I had a coworker who really sucked at the reading comprehension tests, but she knew sines and tangents, so I took her reading tests and she took my math. I would never say she isn't as educated as I am. That girl could do trig in her head and have the answer in 30 seconds. Of course, she isn't a writer. Then I would say maybe step it up a notch and study the basics.


----------



## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

VG2311 said:


> It appears everywhere that print appears. Misspelled words such as "orientate", seperate (and seperete) as well as the ubiquitous misuse of "their, they're and there", and of course; "your and you're".


Okay, you've got me. What the heck's wrong with 'orientate'?


----------



## VG2311 (May 1, 2015)

Sam Kates said:


> Okay, you've got me. What the heck's wrong with 'orientate'?


The correct form is "orient". Example: "The missile used its military GPS to orient itself towards the target."

Other forms are: "They went through a period of orientation before assuming their duties".

The antiaircraft gun was oriented towards the north.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Sam Kates said:


> Okay, you've got me. What the heck's wrong with 'orientate'?


Well . . . . it's not a word. The word is orient. You orient yourself. Or you can be oriented. Freshmen to college go to orientation.

(VG's examples are way better than mine.  )


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Well . . . . it's not a word. The word is orient. You orient yourself. Or you can be oriented. Freshmen to college go to orientation.
> 
> (VG's examples are way better than mine.  )


Like the Orient Express


----------



## Roby (May 14, 2015)

The other one like "orientate" that I personally dislike is "administrate." "Administer" is a perfectly good word form.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Roby said:


> The other one like "orientate" that I personally dislike is "administrate." "Administer" is a perfectly good word form.


And, again. . . . I don't think it's really a word. (Could be wrong about that . . . . )

In either case, of course, one could argue: the result is communication, even if it left you twitchy, so maybe it _is_ a word.  

eta: you can find anything on the internet. Turns out both 'orientate' and 'administrate' are _real_ words. The meanings are basically the same as 'orient' and 'administer' and the usage difference is generally regional/national (e.g. UK vs US).


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Roby said:


> The other one like "orientate" that I personally dislike is "administrate." "Administer" is a perfectly good word form.


Irregardless, those are used a lot.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

DebBennett said:


> It's not the typos that get me - it's the lack of plot and basic and basic idea of how to structure a novel.
> Most of the indie books I've read recently have been typo-free, with no homophones (instant book-closure) and good sentence construction. But they've all suffered from a lack of structural editing. Stories that wander the leafy lanes of the author's imagination, scenes which have no relevance to anything, descriptions of getting up, going to bed etc. But no pace, no tension, no plot. I get to the end and feel I've wasted several hours of my life.


Your going to hate my novels then.  
I actually strive for real life. Characters do use the bathroom and bedrooms are for more than sex. I don't aim for pace and tension, but they are there. Plot wise, mine is long range. What happens in the short term is what happens when your living life.

If your expectations are different from what you are reading, you must be reading the wrong books.

I personally, like the real life aspects, and first found it in Space Opera that actually had no real Opera about it. It was good solid life in space, and I completely enjoyed it.

Yes, I know many readers are not interested in what happens in the bathroom, but when your documenting a life, some of that is relevant.



katrina46 said:


> I have read stories where it's obvious the author is just trying to reach a certain word count. Five pages of the main character doing dishes, then going to the basement and doing laundry or whatever. Forget 90k if that's how you get there. Give me 50k and leave out the boring filler.


I must admit, the dishes and laundry is probably going too far, but what is happening while the these are happening? If nothing at all, then I agree with you. 'I did the dishes', is perfectly adequate, imo, if nothing else is happening. It doesn't need a half page explanation. It tells you time has passed doing something. But if doing the dishes generates s revelation, then the description may be necessary.

I fill in a lot of the details, especially in my first 2 novels, while life in the 27th century is being explained. It has made them slow in places. I was told by my editor that they were slow in some places, but I left them as written because that's what I wanted to say.

The 3rd novel in the series now, that's a whole new level of fasten your seat belt. The explanations have been mainly done, and while life goes on between the action, there is a lot more of it. Life though, is not a word filler for me, its the real story. The action is what happens while your concentrating on living.

Ultimately, the plot and the way it gets there is for the author to decide. If they want a novel that has no real plot, that's fine.

Its up to readers to decide while reading the sample if they want to go the distance or not.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

_After Harriet finished her synth-wich and juice she placed the tray into the recycler which melted the thin tray and returned the molten material back to its storage for the next person who needed a tray, or a cup or a bowl._

Nobody should need to wash dishes in sci-fi!


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

geronl said:


> _After Harriet finished her synth-wich and juice she placed the tray into the recycler which melted the thin tray and returned the molten material back to its storage for the next person who needed a tray, or a cup or a bowl._
> 
> Nobody should need to wash dishes in sci-fi!


Exactamundo. 

In mine, the butler droid clears the table.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> Your going to hate my novels then.
> I actually strive for real life. Characters do use the bathroom and bedrooms are for more than sex. I don't aim for pace and tension, but they are there. Plot wise, mine is long range. What happens in the short term is what happens when your living life.
> 
> If your expectations are different from what you are reading, you must be reading the wrong books.
> ...


What I was talking about is nothing going on and people just writing for the sake of filler. I mean I get why they do it. I used to right for a magazine that paid me per word, so of course I've done my share of padding, but it still makes for a very boring book.


----------



## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

I have to say I haven't come across to many editing errors in some of the books I'm reading, but I am finding books that have not been content edited or, as I imagine in some Big 5 cases, the editors were too deferential to the author and didn't direct the work. I've reviewed a few books that could've benefited from a strict editor who noted issues with storytelling, character development, and plot.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> What I was talking about is nothing going on and people just writing for the sake of filler. I mean I get why they do it. I used to right for a magazine that paid me per word, so of course I've done my share of padding, but it still makes for a very boring book.


Ok girl, quit making my typos. . 
I guess I can forgive you since I know your brain is half melted. Mine is only a quarter melted since we had a nice cooling shower.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> Ok girl, quit making my typos. .
> I guess I can forgive you since I know your brain is half melted. Mine is only a quarter melted since we had a nice cooling shower.


LOL, that is just two much, to.  No Watt Aye men?

Ok never mind. That was just bad.


----------



## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Um, sorry to disorientate you all, but 'orientate' is very much a word. I'm used to being accused of incorrectly spelling words like 'flavour' and 'aluminium', but to deny a word even exists is a new one on me...

ETA: just noticed Ann's edit on a previous post. Yep, we tend to use 'orientate' more in the UK than we use 'orient', which is why the post stating it was incorrectly spelt puzzled me.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Sam Kates said:


> Um, sorry to disorientate you all, but 'orientate' is very much a word. I'm used to being accused of incorrectly spelling words like 'flavour' and 'aluminium', but to deny a word even exists is a new one on me...
> 
> ETA: just noticed Ann's edit on a previous post. Yep, we tend to use 'orientate' more in the UK than we use 'orient', which is why the post stating it was incorrectly spelt puzzled me.


Nothing wrong with spelling flavour as flavour. Same as Colour is colour.

One thing we shouldn't be doing here is getting aggro about the spelling of other countries. Just because you spell something differently, doesnt make them spelling errors.

In my novels, I spell it out in front that I use Australian spelling, because the main characters are Australian.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Ok girl, quit making my typos. .
> I guess I can forgive you since I know your brain is half melted. Mine is only a quarter melted since we had a nice cooling shower.


I showered and then I got sweaty and sticky five minutes later. I think next I'll stick my head in the freezer. My curtains are the type that don't cover the whole window, so the sun hits me all day while I write. I put a sheet up to block it and now it looks like I can't afford curtains. I should put a "struggling author" sign in the window so people know what's up.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> I hate that, too. I think the concept of "falling action" is becoming something of a lost art.


It used to be books were broken up almost equally beginning, middle, and end. Now more of them are beginning, middle, let's stop now.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> It used to be books were broken up almost equally beginning, middle, and end. Now more of them are beginning, middle, let's stop now.


Mine tell me when to stop.


----------



## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Roby said:


> And while I'm in this topic, I have to share my favorite typo. It was in an erratum, and it read: "We are sorry for having called Sgt. John Robel a defective on the Philadelphia Police Force. He is a detective on the police farce."


That. Is. EPIC. I'm making a poster out of it.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Defective, lol


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

*How important is good grammar and stuff to readers? Apparently there are many who do not care.*

Here is an Amazon science fiction offering - It's on a free promo

In which the author defends his bad editing by posting his own review and even praising the author in the third person. As if we can't see that his name is the same as the author. 



> Very good. I am not an editor. It doesn't bother me about typos, wrong putuation, word usage, etc.
> If you are concerned about those things you need to read regular books, not indi books. That being said I am concerned about the story. If an author can't tell a good story it really doesn't really matter if he is a rocket scientist or a good speller. That is just my 71 year old humble opinion. This guy is a darn good story teller and I like his work. I liked his first book and love his second. Just wish it was longer


4 stars after 23 reviews.



Currently says #667 in Kindle free store and #1 in scifi>military>space fleet

.......................

Apparently there are enough people for whom the story is more important than the quality of the writing. I include the link and stuff because the author defended it. Many of us will think he is wrong, but a lot of readers don't.


----------



## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

Though there are plenty of examples of well told stories that were published with horrible grammar, spelling and punctuation, that did well, there are an equal number of perfectly crafted tomes that bombed because the story sucked...

Ideally, the story is well structured, fun to read and well crafted technically.

If I have to choose one over the other, however, I prefer a well told story to a structurally perfect one. I suspect most readers will as well.


----------



## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

geronl said:


> Defective, lol


Oh, but it's even more subtle and brilliant. They corrected the first error... and introduced another one with the correction (police "farce"). LOVE it.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

S.W. Vaughn said:


> Oh, but it's even more subtle and brilliant. They corrected the first error... and introduced another one with the correction (police "farce"). LOVE it.


That is awesome. I can see someone writing comedy doing it on purpose.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

geronl said:


> *How important is good grammar and stuff to readers? Apparently there are many who do not care.*
> 
> Here is an Amazon science fiction offering - It's on a free promo
> 
> ...


It's the don't read indie books if it bothers you that gets me. Like no indies ever edit just because he doesn't.

_<link removed in quoted post . . . . "WHOA" -- Ann_


----------



## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

katrina46 said:


> It's the don't read indie books if it bothers you that gets me. Like no indies ever edit just because he doesn't.


Perfectly stated. I doubt we can ever shed that, unfortunately. Because most independent writers aren't like the Kboard ones, and do put out a lot of rough stuff.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

geronl said:


> *How important is good grammar and stuff to readers? Apparently there are many who do not care.*
> 
> Here is an Amazon science fiction offering - It's on a free promo
> 
> ...


You said free right. That 667 and #1 does not mean readers don't care. It means it was free and it was downloaded. Rank on books goes up when the book is bought or downloaded not when it is read. 
So don't be spouting male bovine excrement. 
I picked up your book whenever you ran a promotion. It must have been recently because you are on page 7 on my kindle.
I know you and you are not even an auto read.

Freebies and on sale books tend to work slightly different than regular priced books.
People tend to get freebies in bulk. I appear to be averaging 7 downloads a day. That figure used to be much higher.
So please do not assume freebie rank has anything to do with actual reading.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I mentioned before that I think sci-fi readers pounce on free books, this one included.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

geronl said:


> *
> In which the author defends his bad editing by posting his own review and even praising the author in the third person. As if we can't see that his name is the same as the author. *


*

Be careful whom you criticise. The review is not by the same name as the author, as the book is not written by Amazon Customer. The title to the review is the name of the author because the reviewer wants to defend the author.*


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

geronl said:


> I mentioned before that I think sci-fi readers pounce on free books, this one included.


Pounce yes, read who knows. 
I tend to pounce on puzzle books. Guess what. That doesn't mean I read them all. Matter of fact 6 got deleted unread and the 7th one I just glanced at because they were not as advertised. But that author ranked up because of people grabbing his books.

So again rank and read do not always match.
Though let me be the first to congratulate you. You found a way to get moved up on my TBR. Back in a bit.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Be careful whom you criticise. The review is not by the same name as the author, as the book is not written by Amazon Customer. The title to the review is the name of the author because the reviewer wants to defend the author.


oops

Anyway, the point is that both sides show up on that account. It also shows that a lot more people care about enjoying a story than the details.

even if the details can drive some of us nuts


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

geronl said:


> oops
> 
> Anyway, the point is that both sides show up on that account. It also shows that a lot more people care about enjoying a story than the details.
> 
> even if the details can drive some of us nuts


No, it shows ONE person liked the book. One is never a lot. Also check your messages.


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

geronl said:


> *How important is good grammar and stuff to readers? Apparently there are many who do not care.*
> 
> .......................
> 
> Apparently there are enough people for whom the story is more important than the quality of the writing. I include the link and stuff because the author defended it. Many of us will think he is wrong, but a lot of readers don't.


Personally, I think another view to consider is that there may be a large number of readers who do care, but they don't review because they are tired of being called "bullies", "thugs", "trolls", etc. when they provide a counterpoint negative review mentioning errors. How many just in this thread said they will only contact an author personally or just not review if they can't say only nice things? It seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation to me.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

crebel said:


> Personally, I think another view to consider is that there may be a large number of readers who do care, but they don't review because they are tired of being called "bullies", "thugs", "trolls", etc. when they provide a counterpoint negative review mentioning errors. How many just in this thread said they will only contact an author personally or just not review if they can't say only nice things? It seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation to me.


I just thought of something and thank you.
For those of you pointing out that book full of errors made #1 free in some baby subcat of which there are less than 100 books in, all that means is it doesn't take much to make number 1.
Have you actually ever looked at that author's rank? That is what I would look at. 
But by all means please right a scamlet chicken full of synophobes, exclamation questions, misselled words and all the tenses in one paragraph. Be sure and throw in some house worms and a herd of staff. Let me know how well it actually sells when people have to pay for it.

When talking about editing, let's not talk about the free lists only the paid. It just makes more sense.

Now as to whether I point out errors in reviews, in non fiction always. In fiction, only if every sentence is like my example above.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

What I dislike is being called a 'Grammar Nazi' instead of an 'Idiot Hunter'.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> What I dislike is being called a 'Grammar Nazi' instead of an 'Idiot Hunter'.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

> If you are concerned about those things you need to read regular books, not indi books.


What I resent out of that quote is the implication all indie books are riddled with errors, which is untrue. Also what's with "regular" books and "indi" books?

I don't know about anyone else, but as a reader I do care. I can't tell you how many books I've never looked at because of errors in the blurb or the first few pages of the sample. Shrugging off a few errors in an 80,000-word novel is easy. Shrugging off any error in a blurb or few pages of sample isn't going to happen, and I don't care if it's free.

Research errors will also stop me cold. If you're writing thrillers you should know Glocks don't have safeties. If you're writing westerns you should know horses eat hay and straw is bedding.

Edit: Hmm. If I read a few pages of the sample, obviously I did look at the book, so I should have said never bought or never downloaded.


----------



## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

ellenoc said:


> I can't tell you how many books I've never looked at because of errors in the blurb or the first few pages of the sample.


I agree, wholeheartedly. If an author can't take extra time and care to make sure that the blurb---the very first substantial piece of writing that is an attempt at turning a browser into a customer---is correct in all of its aspects, why should I, as a potential reader, be expected to invest any of my time and attention in that book?



ellenoc said:


> Research errors will also stop me cold. If you're writing thrillers you should know Glocks don't have safeties. If you're writing westerns you should know horses eat hay and straw is bedding.


And if you're millionaire author Dean Koontz, who can afford any number of research assistants, you should learn before you write your book, _Phantoms_, that a revolver does not eject its spent shells when it's fired. I stopped reading his books after that.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Word Fan said:


> And if you're millionaire author Dean Koontz, who can afford any number of research assistants, you should learn before you write your book, _Phantoms_, that a revolver does not eject its spent shells when it's fired. I stopped reading his books after that.


   How in the world did that get by!


----------



## VG2311 (May 1, 2015)

Sam Kates said:


> Um, sorry to disorientate you all, but 'orientate' is very much a word. I'm used to being accused of incorrectly spelling words like 'flavour' and 'aluminium', but to deny a word even exists is a new one on me...


The correct form is "disorient".

It is not denying a word exists, it is mentioning that the word is not correct. For instance, " rapidlious" is not a correct form of rapidly.


----------



## VG2311 (May 1, 2015)

Word Fan said:


> And if you're millionaire author Dean Koontz, who can afford any number of research assistants, you should learn before you write your book, _Phantoms_, that a revolver does not eject its spent shells when it's fired. I stopped reading his books after that.


If an author is good, and makes a few mistakes, I would not stop reading his books. Humans make mistakes, it happens. Even Larry Niven made a few mistakes in physics, but I didn't stop reading his work.


----------



## SteveHarrison (Feb 1, 2015)

VG2311 said:


> The correct form is "disorient".
> 
> It is not denying a word exists, it is mentioning that the word is not correct. For instance, " rapidlious" is not a correct form of rapidly.


Both are correct. One is perhaps more accepted in British English, but the only actual difference is that one has more letters than the other. It's handy having a choice like this when considering the rhythm of a sentence.


----------



## TonyWrites (Oct 1, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Editing is irrelevant as long as you get it perfect the first time.


Good luck with that. I've got a keen eye for words and grammar, and _still_ the typos creep in, requiring multiple passes to correct them all.
Another set of eyes is vital to maintaining an error-free text.


----------



## TonyWrites (Oct 1, 2013)

VG2311 said:


> If an author is good, and makes a few mistakes, I would not stop reading his books. Humans make mistakes, it happens. Even Larry Niven made a few mistakes in physics, but I didn't stop reading his work.


A few mistakes are par for the course. I once carefully edited a trip guide for a train excursion. When I got my copy, I noticed a couple errors had popped up during the post-edit revision process. It did not detract from the guide.

On the flip side of a coin, I once had an egotistical client ask me to edit a 400,000 (!) word manuscript. He thought it only needed a light tune-up. What I found instead was a mass of typos, run-on sentences, and poor grammar (to say nothing of horrid characterization, wasting words on needless details, and an excruciatingly slow plot pace). I finally had to cancel the project and refund the client.

Some authors understand how vital editing is while others are totally clueless.


----------



## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

VG2311 said:


> The correct form is "disorient".
> 
> It is not denying a word exists, it is mentioning that the word is not correct. For instance, " rapidlious" is not a correct form of rapidly.


To persist in saying something that's wrong won't make it right.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

"When did editing stop being important?"

I hope this question is being asked of the big, traditional publishers as well.  I'm currently reading an (older) trad-pubbed paperback and after 150 well-written pages I ran across five or six typos or other glitches, all within about 20 pages.  Kind of disheartening, but on the other hand, it's not at all surprising.  It's not that editing, grammar, typographical or plot errors never existed in books before 2005... its just that we didn't notice them as much.


----------



## Roby (May 14, 2015)

Remember Theodore White's _The Making of the President 1960_? I read the mass market paperback of that book with a red pen in my hand shortly after publication, because there were basic errors on every page. Then I wrote to the publisher and told them that if White had been one of my authors, I would have treated him far better than they did. It was a nonfiction best-seller, and I think it might have won the Pulitzer, and it *still* hadn't been well proofread. I thought it was disgraceful.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Roby said:


> Remember Theodore White's _The Making of the President 1960_? I read the mass market paperback of that book with a red pen in my hand shortly after publication, because there were basic errors on every page. Then I wrote to the publisher and told them that if White had been one of my authors, I would have treated him far better than they did. It was a nonfiction best-seller, and I think it might have won the Pulitzer, and it *still* hadn't been well proofread. I thought it was disgraceful.


And the publisher wrote you back thanking you for taking the time to give them feedback that they needed, and sent you a box full of free books.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who gives this kind of feedback, although I've cut back over the years. Here's an incident that helped me decide to not give feedback:

Louis Rukeyser has a weekly PBS show called Wall Street Week. Each week they'd have a rating of -5 to +5. They'd say "If the rating is -4 or greater, you should sell."

I wrote them a letter saying, "What you mean is 'if the rating is -4 or more negative, you should sell.'"

I got a letter back that said, essentially, "No, you're wrong. Get a life."


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

"Editor! Editor!... there is a fry in my soup!"


----------



## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

Louis Rukeyser has a weekly PBS show called Wall Street Week. Each week they'd have a rating of -5 to +5. They'd say "If the rating is -4 or greater, you should sell."

I wrote them a letter saying, "What you mean is 'if the rating is -4 or more negative, you should sell.'"

I got a letter back that said, essentially, "No, you're wrong. Get a life."
[/quote]

That would explain the show's stock-picking results over the years. 

Saturday Night Live did a hilarious parody of his show, but coming on the heels of a horrendous downturn in the market it didn't get that many laughs. The audience was a little scared.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

I wonder if cave painters had editors


----------



## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

ellenoc said:


> What I resent out of that quote is the implication all indie books are riddled with errors, which is untrue. Also what's with "regular" books and "indi" books?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but as a reader I do care. I can't tell you how many books I've never looked at because of errors in the blurb or the first few pages of the sample. Shrugging off a few errors in an 80,000-word novel is easy. Shrugging off any error in a blurb or few pages of sample isn't going to happen, and I don't care if it's free.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with everything you said.

Especially about _research._ A few years ago, when I was working in the criminal justice field I read a very popular trad published mystery. The writing was rather eloquent, and I didn't notice too many errors as far as grammar. I did however become infuriated with the lack of background research and fact checking on the subject matter.  The author made huge assumptions about statistics that were completely wrong and had no bias in reality. And, I get so tired of authors using "the bumbling/drunk detective" stereotype to fumble through details of a case and "accidentally on purpose" stumble across some evidence.


----------



## Steve Margolis (Mar 31, 2015)

i think printed books have a better track record for lack of errors and typos because the book passes through more hands before publication.

If more of the self-published authors used editors or at least beta-readers, there probably wouldn't be as many errors.

When my first book comes out, at the very least, I will be able to say it is 'error free". I used an editor and had a lot of people read it for me.


----------



## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

ellenoc said:


> What I resent out of that quote is the implication all indie books are riddled with errors, which is untrue. Also what's with "regular" books and "indi" books?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but as a reader I do care. I can't tell you how many books I've never looked at because of errors in the blurb or the first few pages of the sample. Shrugging off a few errors in an 80,000-word novel is easy. Shrugging off any error in a blurb or few pages of sample isn't going to happen, and I don't care if it's free.
> 
> ...


I'm the same. I won't buy a book if there are noticeable errors in the blurb or sample. I'm not a snob about it. I make as many mistakes as everyone else. But it's too distracting to read error after error and completely throws me out of the work. Also, rightly or wrongly, I see the problem as an indicator that the author was similarly careless over characterisation, structure, pacing etc. so I'm not going to enjoy the book.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

a_g said:


> I'd mention something about glass houses...
> 
> I do find it distressing that the few lone voices in this thread made mention of how many errors that get called out aren't errors at all seem to be drowning in the finger pointing and nose thumbing.


I do find it distressing. The few lone voices in this thread, who made mention of how many errors get called out, but which aren't errors at all, seem to be drowning in the finger pointing, and nose thumbing.

There, that feels better to me. 

Your probably right.

However, I'd rather be called out on something and be able to say it was deliberate, Australian spelling or grammar, or some specific reason why I did it, than not know it was upsetting people. If you know, you can say something about it, even to the point of making a note in the book itself.


----------



## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> There, that feels better to me.


Then I'm glad.



TimothyEllis said:


> Your probably right.


My right what?

Hm. _You're_ right. It does feel good.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Editing is irrelevant as long as you get it perfect the first time.


Oh My Goat, no. If you got it perfect the first time, editing is downright harmful.

So, consider carefully: Do you really _need_ editing?


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

ellenoc said:


> What I resent out of that quote is the implication all indie books are riddled with errors, which is untrue. Also what's with "regular" books and "indi" books?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but as a reader I do care. I can't tell you how many books I've never looked at because of errors in the blurb or the first few pages of the sample. Shrugging off a few errors in an 80,000-word novel is easy. Shrugging off any error in a blurb or few pages of sample isn't going to happen, and I don't care if it's free.
> 
> ...


I've read books by authors who did take the time to get the blurb and first 10% right. Then I buy the book and find that's the only part they spent time on. I feel tricked. It's like they thought if they could hook someone on the beginning of the book they'd forgive them for the rest.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> What I dislike is being called a 'Grammar Nazi' instead of an 'Idiot Hunter'.


I prefer soldier of grammar.


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> I'm the Grammar Slayer. We are enemies, you and I.


According to spell check I've written some fragmented sentences in my time. I guess that makes me a double agent.


----------



## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I think it is a money issue. It is hard to find good copy-editors at reasonable prices. Copy-edits are expensive. I know my own grammar isn't the best, but I do listen to my novels read out loud on my computer to catch typos, etc. and hire editors to proofread my work. But I know a few might still slip through. 

While reading I don't mind some, but it is plot structure and lack of character ARCs that usually bug me more than a few grammar goofs.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

katrina46 said:


> I've read books by authors who did take the time to get the blurb and first 10% right. Then I buy the book and find that's the only part they spent time on. I feel tricked. It's like they thought if they could hook someone on the beginning of the book they'd forgive them for the rest.


I've experienced this too. For a long time I thought it happened because those seeking traditional deals polish the first 10% or so to a high gloss because that's what agents/editors/contests often look at to make their determination. Now that so many go straight to indie I think a lot of it may be deliberate. I don't believe people like that want forgiveness for the sloppy 90%. They want your money for the whole thing. If it's bad enough, it's one of the things that will provoke me into asking for a refund.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> I'm not sure it's all intentional. The beginning tends to get a more critical eye because the mind has a tendency to "get into the story" at some point and it starts skipping over mistakes. And whenever people edit, they tend to start at the beginning, and after they've made some changes, they re-start at the beginning, so the front of the book almost always gets more looks than the end.


It's like when a choir is learning a new piece of music. The natural thing is to start at the beginning. So you go over the first section many MANY more times than you end up going over later sections. What's actually the smarter thing to do, is start with the LAST section. And move forward. This has the added advantage that the bit the choir knows BEST is the end. . . so the performance gets more confident as they go through the piece.

Seems to me that for basic proofreading and such, that might be a smart way to do books as well.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

vrabinec said:


> I'm not sure it's all intentional. The beginning tends to get a more critical eye because the mind has a tendency to "get into the story" at some point and it starts skipping over mistakes. And whenever people edit, they tend to start at the beginning, and after they've made some changes, they re-start at the beginning, so the front of the book almost always gets more looks than the end.


Yes, definitely. And that's a good thing. IOW, the beginning is more important and the beginning gets more looks. The consequences of a error in the last half of the book are less dire.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm fascinated with how we miss things.

My book that I'm proofing now is on version RC08, that is, the eighth "release candidate." Since it's only 15K words, I reread it every time I make changes.

In RC07 I found two errors: a missing end quote, and "Sorry we didn't get her sooner," instead of "Sorry we didn't get _here _sooner." I said, "No way I (and two other good proofreaders) missed those in all these readings, but I went back and checked, and sure enough, they were there all along.

Next book, I'll try reading out loud and speaking the punctuation marks (like: quote no comma unquote he said period quote there is no way ...). And I'll record myself doing that. Then, if I miss an error, I'll go back and listen to the recording to see if I read it wrong and didn't notice or read it as it was intended.

That would be tedious, but perhaps I wouldn't have to reread it so often.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Soldier of Grammar

Grammar Slayer

"I will edit you!"

"Eat my diction!"


----------



## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

It's so easy to see the mistakes in other's works, instead of our own.  Every time I review my current manuscript, a mistake pops out; one I didn't see before.  I'm currently reading a book on organized crime in Kansas in the 1920s and 1930s.  I've seen 2 mistakes so far; and I'm not a great editor!  That's why I've hired 2 editors for my book.  Wonder how many mistakes I've made in this post??


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> And whenever people edit, they tend to start at the beginning, and after they've made some changes, they re-start at the beginning, so the front of the book almost always gets more looks than the end.


Not always. One of my proofreading passes is always starting from the end and reading the story backwards paragraph by paragraph. I've seen others post that they do something similar. It keeps you from getting involved in the story and helps you concentrate on the words instead.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

a_g said:


> Then I'm glad.
> 
> My right what?
> 
> Hm. _You're_ right. It does feel good.


right foot usually. 

Touche.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I've read books by authors who did take the time to get the blurb and first 10% right. Then I buy the book and find that's the only part they spent time on. I feel tricked. It's like they thought if they could hook someone on the beginning of the book they'd forgive them for the rest.


Years ago, this phenomenon was one thing that irked me about Amazon's Breakthrough Novel Award: they were judging an entire full-length novel on the first X pages (or percentage; I don't remember details). The rest of the book could be crap, but if one expertly honed the first part, he or she could automatically advance. (And, I'm betting, often did.)


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

geronl said:


> Soldier of Grammar
> 
> Grammar Slayer
> 
> ...


----------



## Kindlemojodotcom_Tom (Jul 6, 2011)

For me editing has always been important.  I'm dyslecic. I send my books through two or three editors, and people still complain about mistakes....


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Kindlemojodotcom_Tom said:


> I send my books through two or three editors, and people still complain about mistakes....


I keep seeing comments like this and wonder why? People say their editors are really good, but all the mistakes are still there. Contradiction?


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

TimothyEllis said:


> I keep seeing comments like this and wonder why? People say their editors are really good, but all the mistakes are still there. Contradiction?


She didn't say _all_ the mistakes are still there. Quite possibly, the two editing passes caught 99% of them between 'em. That doesn't mean the final manuscript is perfect. 

I can remember writing term papers for college . . . considerably shorter than your average fiction manuscript. I'd write it, type it, proof it, type it again, have some one else proof it, proof their proofing, type it a third time, and STILL find changes I had to make in ink on reading through before turning it in for a grade. It happens. But if you do your best to MINIMIZE mistakes, the average reader will forgive you.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> But if you do your best to MINIMIZE mistakes, the average reader will forgive you.


Yes, I tend to be like that. I cringe as I trip over one, but a few spaced out don't give me a major problem.

I guess the problem is one of each editor having blind spots. I'm a good proofreader, given a number of passes through, especially reading on my ipad. But I'm not so good with subtle sentence construction. (And dont judge what I post here, since I simply don't take the time to edit what I post, like I do my books. Although that is changing.)

Its when you read something you find almost unreadable, and later find out it had a supposedly professional editor work on it, that you wonder. The last one really surprised me. It had no spelling errors, no wrongly used words or duplicates, but it read so badly I gave up about 5 chapters in. Not to mention a lot of it was not believable, which an editor, imo, should also pick up. Given time, I could have edited it into a really good novel, but finding out it had been edited already, really blew me away.

But in this case, the supposed editor was more of a proofreader than a wordsmith.

I also wondered if the original had been written in a different language, and translated badly into English.

In fact, I wonder how many books this happens to, and because the author has English as a second language, or the editor does as well, they have no idea just how badly the English reads. I've noticed that German translates badly into English. You have to rearrange the sentences, requiring interpretation of the sentence as well as translation.

Sorry, late night musing.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

TimothyEllis said:


> I keep seeing comments like this and wonder why? People say their editors are really good, but all the mistakes are still there. Contradiction?


No editor can catch everything in a long text. They were still finding errors in the preparation for the 50th anniversary edition of Lord of the Rings.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Being a grammar Nazi is stressful when it comes to checking your own work. I just uploaded my latest to KDP. Seven beta versions and eight release candidates. The last one was fine, but the hyperlink to my newsletter signup was wrong, so I had to redo it.

Then there's getting all the KDP info perfect, blurb, etc.

And, a reminder that editing wasn't that important back in 1955:






I couldn't find the commercial in which they acknowledged the like/as error, and said, "What do you want, good grammar or good taste?"


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> Yes, I tend to be like that. I cringe as I trip over one, but a few spaced out don't give me a major problem.
> 
> I guess the problem is one of each editor having blind spots. I'm a good proofreader, given a number of passes through, especially reading on my ipad. But I'm not so good with subtle sentence construction. (And dont judge what I post here, since I simply don't take the time to edit what I post, like I do my books. Although that is changing.)
> 
> ...


Timothy, 
The problem arises from anyone can call themselves an editor. Now if the author doesn't know good grammar or is not a native English speaker, they won't know they hired a bad editor. 
I have attempted to help edit books a couple of times. If I had been charging say 50 cents an error, I could have made a car payment just on the first page.
Note those were obvious errors since I am not an English major.


----------



## geronl (May 7, 2015)

Nobody is going to write a perfect first draft. I do a pretty good first draft (see ongoing story at my blog) but I know if I go back I will cringe at the missing words here and there, he stilted dialogue. Pretty much everyone on Earth uses contractions when they are in a hurry right... that will definitely need changed if the blog story ever becomes an ebook.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

I may pay for an editor next time, because I'm tired of reading my book over and over again. This latest was only 15K words, and I read the final version at least twelve times.

But, I paid for a proofreader and also had it proofread by a grammar Nazi colleague, and there were a few things that slipped past all of us. So, if I pay for an editor I'll have to be convinced that he or she is extraordinary.


----------



## Lucas Bale (Jun 4, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> She didn't say _all_ the mistakes are still there. Quite possibly, the two editing passes caught 99% of them between 'em. That doesn't mean the final manuscript is perfect.
> 
> I can remember writing term papers for college . . . considerably shorter than your average fiction manuscript. I'd write it, type it, proof it, type it again, have some one else proof it, proof their proofing, type it a third time, and STILL find changes I had to make in ink on reading through before turning it in for a grade. It happens. But if you do your best to MINIMIZE mistakes, the average reader will forgive you.


I write, edit, re-write, edit, re-write, edit, then edit some more and keep editing. I have separate editing passes for developmental issues, character issues, structural issues, setting issues, theme issues and probably even more. In all of those editing passes, I catch typos I ought to have caught before, but didn't. I then have an editor with whom I work, and we will go over that tightened ms several times together. I then send out to dozens of ARC readers and there are two or three that will ALWAYS catch something. It's inevitable. It's not that either of us have done a bad job, it's that things always get through.

Traditionally published books have mistakes, but there aren't many (I'm not talking about research "errors" here). Part of the reason is the tremendously complex and time-consuming editing process most, if not all, those books go through. Indie books, in my opinion only, ought to be held to the same standard and should seek to attain the same editorial standards. Maybe some here will disagree with me, but a professional piece of work is really the only way to go. That means paying for a professional copyeditor and finding ARC readers and proofreaders if you can. Anything else is, in my view, insulting to the reader.


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Sherry_Soule said:


> I think it is a money issue. It is hard to find good copy-editors at reasonable prices. Copy-edits are expensive.


I don't understand this argument. I'm dirt poor and still managed to save up for an editor. I just had to make a lot of sacrifices - rarely ever going out, no vacations, no drinks, cheapish food and old furniture / clothes / shoes. Accepting extra work hours when offered (and having months with zero free time as a result). Self publishing is a business, and starting any business requires an investment. You can't run a restaurant and claim to have no money for kitchen equipment. You'd save up until you can make the initial investments for running a restaurant.

Yes, most of my furniture is 30 years old and I wear shoes until they literally fall apart. If I can save up for an editor, anyone can.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

C. Rysalis said:


> Self publishing is a business


I think a lot of us would disagree with that. I certainly don't think my writing is a business. Same as I don't consider my healing and spiritual work a business.

It's me doing what I do.

I agree about skimping on things to get what you do need though. I've been doing that for donkeys years.

I know some will say that I'll never be successful in terms of money from writing if I don't consider it a business, but that's not the way I roll.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> No editor can catch everything in a long text. They were still finding errors in the preparation for the 50th anniversary edition of Lord of the Rings.


Remember that errors are introduced as often as they're eliminated in the publication process. I know this from experience. I've had well-meaning but misguided proofreaders at the press "fix" errors in the copy I've sent them. I only found out after I received the print of the book. (Bursts of rage ensued.) So if the last of the errors in the original manuscript are finally removed in the 50th edition, rest assured that new ones will appear in the 51st.



TimothyEllis said:


> I keep seeing comments like this and wonder why? People say their editors are really good, but all the mistakes are still there. Contradiction?


It's a case of getting what you pay for--which is not to say that expensive = good. All I mean is that paying $400 for 40k words doesn't leave much time for editing. But that's more or less the going rate, so that's all people can do.


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> I think a lot of us would disagree with that. I certainly don't think my writing is a business. Same as I don't consider my healing and spiritual work a business.


If you produce a product and sell it to a lot of people, you're running a business.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

C. Rysalis said:


> If you produce a product and sell it to a lot of people, you're running a business.


If you produce a product and sell it legally to any people, you are running a business.


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Good point, Cini.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

C. Rysalis said:


> Good point, Cini.


As one of your editors I could not resist clarifying your post.


----------



## Simplehistory (Dec 9, 2014)

They want to rush their work out there


----------



## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I can't use and don't recommend the text-to-speech approach to editing. It doesn't flag errors with capitalization, punctuation, paragraph breaks, homophones, etc. And it often mispronounces heteronyms. There's a lot more to copyediting and proof-reading than getting it to sound right. You still have to read the text yourself.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> If you produce a product and sell it legally to any people, you are running a business.


Quote chosen randomly.

I don't go along with that. For a business in Australia, you must have an Australian Business Number (ABN). I don't have one, and have no intention of getting one.

For tax purposes, author income is a separate item, completely unrelated to business income, and is I believe, taxed at a different rate. (Or it used to be anyway, haven't checked recently.) But just the fact it does not go in business income on the tax return, shows the tax office doesn't consider an author to be a business. You still get to claim expenses, but they don't go in the business section either.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> Quote chosen randomly.
> 
> I don't go along with that. For a business in Australia, you must have an Australian Business Number (ABN). I don't have one, and have no intention of getting one.
> 
> For tax purposes, author income is a separate item, completely unrelated to business income, and is I believe, taxed at a different rate. (Or it used to be anyway, haven't checked recently.) But just the fact it does not go in business income on the tax return, shows the tax office doesn't consider an author to be a business. You still get to claim expenses, but they don't go in the business section either.


In the US, our tax office considers ALL income taxable.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

cinisajoy said:


> In the US, our tax office considers ALL income taxable.


I didn't say it wasn't taxable, I said author income was separate from business income on the tax form.


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> I didn't say it wasn't taxable, I said author income was separate from business income on the tax form.


Probably because not all authors self publish. But if you self publish, you're running a business and need to make the necessary investments yourself. Otherwise, a publisher handles them for you - and sells the product for you.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

C. Rysalis said:


> Probably because not all authors self publish. But if you self publish, you're running a business and need to make the necessary investments yourself. Otherwise, a publisher handles them for you - and sells the product for you.


What do you mean by investments?


----------



## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> What do you mean by investments?


...what we've been talking about in this thread the whole time. Editors, for instance. Or covers. Or marketing.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

C. Rysalis said:


> ...what we've been talking about in this thread the whole time. Editors, for instance. Or covers. Or marketing.


Oh, you call those investments. I call them expenses.


----------



## Bishoppess (Apr 11, 2015)

Aaaaand here we go. The wall of definition vs definition. On the original topic and on the branch of why people don't notice what their editor missed to start with, I think educating yourself is important as far as what SHOULD be done in the editing process (knowing what's wrong and right in grammar and all). But I don't think that I myself am a good person to do ALL my ediying. I start filling in words and know what I meant and a hundred other things that would be caught my a COMPETENT and EDUCATED second set of eyes.


----------



## e-chant (May 6, 2014)

OK (or okay). I have no idea why "an complete disregard" is correct. Can someone explain?
Disregard doesn't begin with a vowel, so shouldn't it be a (complete) disregard? 
Isn't that the rule?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

It should be a complete disregard because complete does not start with a vowel.


----------



## e-chant (May 6, 2014)

Oh, poster three was pointing out poster one's mistake. Got it now. I thought he was offering a correction instead.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

VG2311 said:


> Short answer, yes.
> 
> It appears everywhere that print appears. Misspelled words such as "orientate", seperate (and seperete) as well as the ubiquitous misuse of "their, they're and there", and of course; "your and you're".
> 
> ...


I feel your pain on the misuses of words (for whatever reason they occur). One question, however, about your last sentence: shouldn't it be "university graduates _who_ can't produce a coherent document"?


----------



## fjsutton (May 25, 2010)

Mercia McMahon
I am so glad you made that statement. The editor sends the manuscript back with the suggested/required revisions and if the author does not agree, the revisions don't get approved. Then the author gets a bad review because of errors. Who gets the blame?  The editor will become the scapegoat for the errors. Sometimes, the author becomes angry with the suggested/required revisions because they feel that you have insulted their work. While that is not the case, it happens. Several times, I have corrected the misuse of words. Example: I want and ice cream. Corrected sentence: I want an ice cream.  However, the author has told me that she didn't care about the small things, so she didn't correct it. Editing is still important and editors can never guarantee finding every mistake. Nevertheless, having no editing at all would deny your work its chance to shine.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Years ago, this phenomenon was one thing that irked me about Amazon's Breakthrough Novel Award: they were judging an entire full-length novel on the first X pages (or percentage; I don't remember details). The rest of the book could be crap, but if one expertly honed the first part, he or she could automatically advance. (And, I'm betting, often did.)


Actually, I liked the ABNA for that. It mimicked the way you ordinarily submit for a trade publishing contract - first you pitch (at ABNA everybody who didn't make the grade bitched about that), then you provide a sample of your work, and if they like that your manuscript gets read.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks . . . .said this earlier but it was PAGES ago!  Let's not critique spelling, grammar, punctuation, or any other 'editiong issues' in posts.  It is inappropriate to hold informal conversational posts on a free forum to the same standard as work held out as professional and offered for download to the public.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

AmsterdamAssassin said:


> Actually, I liked the ABNA for that. It mimicked the way you ordinarily submit for a trade publishing contract - first you pitch (at ABNA everybody who didn't make the grade b*tched about that), then you provide a sample of your work, and if they like that your manuscript gets read.


Haha, maybe that's why I didn't like that aspect of the ABNA... too many bad reminders of the querying process.  I had hoped that the ABNA would utilize a better, more effective process of judging.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Jena H said:


> I had hoped that the ABNA would utilize a better, more effective process of judging.


Like what? To me, their process seemed effective, and since the end result was a trade publishing contract...


----------



## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

fjsutton said:


> Mercia McMahon
> I am so glad you made that statement. The editor sends the manuscript back with the suggested/required revisions and if the author does not agree, the revisions don't get approved. Then the author gets a bad review because of errors. Who gets the blame? The editor will become the scapegoat for the errors. Sometimes, the author becomes angry with the suggested/required revisions because they feel that you have insulted their work. While that is not the case, it happens. Several times, I have corrected the misuse of words. Example: I want and ice cream. Corrected sentence: I want an ice cream. However, the author has told me that she didn't care about the small things, so she didn't correct it. Editing is still important and editors can never guarantee finding every mistake. Nevertheless, having no editing at all would deny your work its chance to shine.


"I want and ice cream." That doesn't make any sense lol.

Honestly, editors really have to deal with little errors like that. I revise my stuff three times before sending it to an editor. That's three full read throughs. We should make our drafts as clean as possible before sending them out.


----------



## Jaret Martens (Jun 12, 2015)

A lot of it comes down to price. Sure, you can view paying for editors as investments, but there's no guarantee you will ever recoup the costs. I do agree that there are ways that most people can eventually scrape together the money to pay for an editor, but with the rate you need to publish in order to stand a legitimate shot at making it as a full-time author, it adds up. That's not to say that it's impossible to save up the money, but when you need to publish every three to four months, it's not realistically achievable for a lot of people.

If you plan to publish four books in one year, you're looking at anywhere from $2000.00 to $6000.00 in editing costs alone. If you can't afford this, the question then becomes whether it's better to sit on your books until you can pay to edit them, or put them out. I'm not trying to say that spending the money isn't worth it. I'm just saying that not everyone can afford it.

None of this excuses authors that publish first--or near to first--drafts. If you aren't going to hire an editor, you'd better make sure your work is as good as you can possibly make it without.


----------



## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> You really should have a comma after "earlier". And 'editiong..' should be "editing.."


Do you think the word 'really' is really necessary?


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Rayven T. Hill said:


> Do you think the word 'really' is really necessary?


It is literally indispensable. Really.


----------



## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

I can probably eliminate the question mark as well.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Do you really think the word "word" is necessary, as if we don't know it's word? As for my "really", at least it conveys a snide amusement.


If you're going to eliminate the word "word," you should also eliminate the word "the."

"Do you think the 'really' is really necessary?" is just a silly sentence.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> If you're going to eliminate the word "word," you should also eliminate the word "the."
> 
> "Do you think the 'really' is really necessary?" is just a silly sentence.


You need to drop the other the.
"Do you think "really" is really necessary? "


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Really?


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Pot:  meet kettle. 


I believe I've made my point.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Pot: meet kettle.
> 
> I believe I've made my point.


Whats the carving knife have to do with this?


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

TimothyEllis said:


> Whats the carving knife have to do with this?


How many whats?


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Haha, maybe that's why I didn't like that aspect of the ABNA... too many bad reminders of the querying process.  I had hoped that the ABNA would utilize a better, more effective process of judging.





AmsterdamAssassin said:


> Like what? To me, their process seemed effective, and since the end result was a trade publishing contract...


I always wished someone would request a _random sample_ of a prospective book-- a five-page or ten-page sample of the author's choice. Better yet, a sample of the judges' choice: pages 60-70, or the first few pages of chapter five, for example. Sure, it would be from the middle of the story, and I realize the same issue would exist: the author could hone that sample to a fare-thee-well while the rest of the MS is crap. But at least then, when the publisher/agent/judges read the MS from the beginning, they'd know within two or three pages if they judged correctly.


----------



## mica (Jun 19, 2015)

I see authors saying they cannot afford editing all the time so they throw the book out and see how well it sells, then if the book sells they edit later. 
yes editing is important but you don't always have to hire a professional who is going to charge you hundreds of dollars. There's ways around it, ways to negotiate. I'm reading a few serials and they could do with some editing but i understand the pressure of getting a new book out every week. The errors don't spoil my reading enjoyment.


----------



## Ed M. (Jul 30, 2015)

Even the most adept, grammatically aware writer is going to make many, many mistakes. As a professional magazine writer and editor, I know my own work is littered with them, and every piece I've ever edited was also chock full of typos. It's just really difficult for a writer to spot his/her own slip-ups unless he/she is taking lots of time in between drafting and proofreading (which is really what we're talking about here). So as long as people keep self-publishing books that have only been seen and proofread by a couple pairs of eyes--and especially if those eyes aren't trained to spot mistakes--you're going to keep seeing a lot of typos and errors in self-published books.


----------



## Katherine Stark (Jul 30, 2015)

If you're proofing your own work, I HIGHLY recommend printing it out on paper, in a different font, font size, and line spacing than what you use to write the book on your computer. It will look completely different to what you're used to, which forces you to pay closer attention to the words. And I don't know about others, but my reading comprehension is much, much better on paper than on a screen. I usually pay ~ $10-$25 (depending on ms length) to have it printed for me at FedEx Office, so if paying $300 or more for a copy editor is just too much for your starting budget, this is a good start to catch typos, run-on sentences, repetitive words, stray punctuation marks, and so on.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Katherine Stark said:


> If you're proofing your own work, I HIGHLY recommend printing it out on paper, in a different font, font size, and line spacing than what you use to write the book on your computer. It will look completely different to what you're used to, which forces you to pay closer attention to the words. And I don't know about others, but my reading comprehension is much, much better on paper than on a screen.


Mine is much better reading on my ipad mini. I catch more that way than I do on paper.


----------



## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Katherine Stark said:


> If you're proofing your own work, I HIGHLY recommend printing it out on paper, in a different font, font size, and line spacing than what you use to write the book on your computer. It will look completely different to what you're used to, which forces you to pay closer attention to the words. And I don't know about others, but my reading comprehension is much, much better on paper than on a screen.


I turn drafts into e-drafts - reading them like a book on my e-reader. Saves print costs, saves trees, and give me a handy list of all the corrections I noted in the draft.


----------



## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

Ed M. said:


> Even the most adept, grammatically aware writer is going to make many, many mistakes. As a professional magazine writer and editor, I know my own work is littered with them, and every piece I've ever edited was also chock full of typos.


If your own work as a self-described "_professional magazine writer and editor_" [Really? *Professional*?] is "_littered with them_" and "_every piece_" that you've "_ever edited was also chock full of typos_" then I suggest that you and your contributing writers get some training, pronto.

No truly "_adept, grammatically aware writer_" will make "_many, many mistakes_." No.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Word Fan said:


> No truly "_adept, grammatically aware writer_" will make "_many, many mistakes_." No.


It depends on how you look at it, and how they work.

There is one method to writing which says write - dont stop for anything - write until your finished. THEN and only then, do you go back and edit for typos, spelling, grammar and flow. This method generates first drafts absolutely full of errors.

My method is the opposite. I correct as I go, sentence by sentence. My first drafts are reasonably clean, and I have a set of find and correct terms I run on it before editing properly.

You cant just make a broad judgement on a statement, without knowing how they write.

My way makes just as many mistakes, but they aren't visible in the first draft.


----------



## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't mind errors, so long as they are not frequent. A misspelling here or a misplaced comma and the occasional grammatical error there doesn't phase me at all. They were in the books that I read when I was younger, and in fact I thought that they added to the books charm in a way.

It was always an neat "aha!" moment when students would catch an error in whatever novel we were reading during school, and I remember feeling baffled that a master at writing was still making errors. Some authors you could always count on to make the same grammatical error over and over again.

Writers make mistakes, editors make mistakes, and sometimes readers think something is a mistake, but it wasn't a mistake or was done intentionally for a literary effect.

When I took up writing as a profession, I found that I became more critical of the books that I would read by other people. I'm not sure why... Just last night I was reading a top 100 book and in the Amazon store and I couldn't believe how poorly it was written. But then there were 1000s of positive reviews, so what do I know.

I put the book down because there were too many errors, but that doesn't happen often.


----------



## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

AuthorX said:


> I don't mind errors, so long as they are not frequent.


I can't say I don't mind errors, but I'll tolerate some in a good story that's otherwise well written. Where the slightest error will stop me cold is in the blurb. Maybe it's harsh, but my attitude is anyone who can't put out an error-free blurb is going to have more errors in their book than I'm willing to accept. Sadly it's in traditionally published books that I will overlook errors in the blurb - because I know it's some flunky at a publishing house that did that blurb, not the author and surely not the people responsible for proofing the book.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

AuthorX said:


> When I took up writing as a profession, I found that I became more critical of the books that I would read by other people. I'm not sure why... Just last night I was reading a top 100 book and in the Amazon store and I couldn't believe how poorly it was written. But then there were 1000s of positive reviews, so what do I know.
> I put the book down because there were too many errors, but that doesn't happen often.


I've stopped reading.

Since I spend a lot of time editing my own writing now, I've become hyper-critical of others. A novel I was looking forward to almost got binned, because I kept picking holes in it. I stopped less than a third the way in. Its in the top 100 for science fiction, and all I can say is "what the hell was the author thinking about when it was being written?" The first book was good, the second ok, but the 3rd is cr*p. And yet its selling enough to be top 100 in a major category. (Yes, I am green coloured.) (My complaints are in character development, and the way the plot was structured to get to an outcome - imo, the easiest possible way of writing it, and in direct conflict with the character portrayal in the first book.) - Probably just me being picky, but thats what being a full time writer has done to my reading.

Before that, 2 books couldn't hold my interest.

So I've gone back to dvd's instead of reading, and removed my reading thingy off my signature.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> I'm the same way, Timothy. It's a lot harder for me to enjoy reading now than it was a few years ago. My inner editor won't shut up.
> It sucks, because reading has always been my favorite pastime.


Mine too.

3 things got me through the dark times. Reading, watching videos-dvd's and computer games.

Now all 3 are coming together so that writing is my new favourite pastime.

Its actually a form of reading though. I'm dying to know what happens next!  And my characters keep surprising me.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

I too can tolerate the occasional typo in a book--as has been mentioned, that's not a new phenomenon, been happening since typeset was first introduced so everyone's run across it from time to time.  But I find myself much more "picky" when it comes to plot development, dialogue, and character actions.  Situations and writing I might have accepted 20 years ago can cause me to throw the book across the room today.  (I still read book-books, so no actual Kindles are harmed in the process.   )  Of course, my decreased tolerance might have more to do with my er, (ahem!) maturity, rather than the fact that I'm a writer, but I can't really say and it hardly matters.  The point is, I find it more and more difficult to find books that I thoroughly enjoy.  The ending of a political thriller I recently read had me particularly enraged because an otherwise decent book was (imo) ruined by the terrible conclusion.  But most of the time I don't get that far and simply ditch the books after two or three chapters.


----------

