# "MONSTER PORN: Amazon Cracks Down On America’s Latest Sex Fantasy" Article



## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

I own a few shares of Amazon stock and follow news & articles that affect them. Boy was I surprised to see this one come across this morning. Not sure if anyone else has posted about it!

MONSTER PORN: Amazon Cracks Down On America's Latest Sex Fantasy

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/monster-porn-amazon-crackdown-america-130059938.html


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

SSDD.
This is nothing new and yahoo news is almost as bad as HuffPo.
Oh and right now is a good time to buy gold but not sell it.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Crud. There go my ideas for alien porn.


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## Larry W. (Oct 23, 2013)

I feel bad for authors getting their books pulled--no question that sucks--but I have to say that was a damn funny article. I was laughing out loud. Thanks for sharing!


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Well the article did FINISH on a high note:



> Fans of raunchy Bigfoot sex need not fear. Over the last few months, several self-published ebooks involving a certain hirsute sex machine have appeared in Amazon's Kindle store, with titles like " Boffing Bigfoot ," " Savage Love ," and the newly released " Bigfoot Did Me From Behind And I Liked It."


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

I got interviewed for that one but I'm not a big enough seller, I didn't make the cut.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

This bums me out. I've chatted with Virginia a few times online and she comes across as a real sweetheart.  That she's found a niche and absolutely owned it should be reason to celebrate, not see her stuff banned.  I mean seriously, I can understand some of the stuff they take out, but Bigfoot, alien, or monster porn?  How is that hurting anyone?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Complaints from the Sasquatch community. They have deep religious objections to having sex with the bodily bald.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

The article was very long so I sent it to my kindle using the app 'send to kinde."  I prefer to read it from there rather than my computer.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I think the author is a big fan of the genre. I spot checked a few of the pulled books and they were all live. Maybe this is all resolved?


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Monique said:


> I think the author is a big fan of the genre. I spot checked a few of the pulled books and they were all live. Maybe this is all resolved?


Didn't think of that lmao


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

All erotica authors have been affected by the filtering and blocking of their books, which has been ongoing for quite some time now. I mostly abandoned writing in this genre last spring, taking off for safer romance waters. I got tired of the BS. Whatever you put in the erotica category will be scrutinized repeatedly. They are constantly looking over books in the KDP bookshelf. Even after changes are made to books they can still get blocked.

Monster erotica was hot in 2012. Maybe we will see a resurgence now? Good luck getting stuff past the censors, though.


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## Bookside Manner (Aug 24, 2013)

Do the dinosaur erotica books count as "monster porn"? I didn't see them mentioned in the article.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Virginia Wade said:


> All erotica authors have been affected by the filtering and blocking of their books, which has been ongoing for quite some time now. I mostly abandoned writing in this genre last spring, taking off for safer romance waters. I got tired of the BS. Whatever you put in the erotica category will be scrutinized repeatedly. They are constantly looking over books in the KDP bookshelf. Even after changes are made to books they can still get blocked.
> 
> Monster erotica was hot in 2012. Maybe we will see a resurgence now? Good luck getting stuff past the censors, though.


I had my erotic romance pulled this week because I used teenager and high school in my description. The characters are in their 30s, but I referenced that their relationship began when they were teenagers in high school.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

OMG this is a catastrophe! (And yet I always suspected it.) Big Foot is doing better with the ladies than I am!!!

Cheers, Greg.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> OMG this is a catastrophe! (And yet I always suspected it.) Big Foot is doing better with the ladies than I am!!!
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


Well you know what they say about big feet.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> OMG this is a catastrophe! (And yet I always suspected it.) Big Foot is doing better with the ladies than I am!!!
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


There is a movie running on cable sometimes about that. Not that I've ever seen any of it or anything... *whistles innocently as he looks away...*


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm not sure why they didn't include Dino erotica. They had a segment on the Colbert Report a few weeks ago featuring Dino stories. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429828/october-21-2013/tip-wag---new-jersey--robo-teachers---amazon-erotica Just fast forward to 4:25. It's hilarious. 

Any hint of teens or underage, barely legal, virgin or young, etc., will get books sent straight into draft or blocked. Lots of titles and descriptions are now very vague and watered down.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Virginia Wade said:


> I'm not sure why they didn't include Dino erotica. They had a segment on the Colbert Report a few weeks ago featuring Dino stories. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429828/october-21-2013/tip-wag---new-jersey--robo-teachers---amazon-erotica Just fast forward to 4:25. It's hilarious.
> 
> Any hint of teens or underage, barely legal, virgin or young, etc., will get books sent straight into draft or blocked. Lots of titles and descriptions are now very vague and watered down.


Thanks for the laugh!


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

You're welcome.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Virginia Wade said:


> I'm not sure why they didn't include Dino erotica. They had a segment on the Colbert Report a few weeks ago featuring Dino stories. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429828/october-21-2013/tip-wag---new-jersey--robo-teachers---amazon-erotica Just fast forward to 4:25. It's hilarious.
> 
> Any hint of teens or underage, barely legal, virgin or young, etc., will get books sent straight into draft or blocked. Lots of titles and descriptions are now very vague and watered down.


Very funny. That feature inspired me to give Dino porn a try. Can't say I had much fun writing it, and it's not selling well, so that's the end of that experiment.

Sorry to hear they're killing your Bigfoot sales. I enjoy the sense of humor you brought to the books.

I got partway into that project I mentioned to you and then the crackdown began. So it's probably not going to happen now. But I still appreciate you giving me your okay.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

My Bigfoot sales took a nosedive at the beginning of Sept 2012. I don't know what happened, but it was some kind of algorithm change or something. Right when Aug turned over into Sept sales plummeted overnight. It was dramatic. Then they slid every month since then, until I began work on another pen name in late spring 2013. I was forced out of the genre a long time ago.

I joke with friends that Amazon had a meeting and they looked over my sales. One of the executives said, "Holy sh*t! She's making how much selling this crap? We gotta cut her off now."

I don't know if that's true or not, but lots of authors saw their sales plummet that month and they have never recovered.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> I joke with friends that Amazon had a meeting and they looked over my sales. One of the executives said, "Holy sh*t! She's making how much selling this crap? We gotta cut her off now."


It makes you wonder doesn't it. However, I wonder if support people are minimum wage people just following rules.

I recently had one of my short stories blocked since Amazon said it was a duplicate of another short story. Actually it was a duplicate of sorts since one of the short stories was clean and the other erotic. The erotic got the most sales so the clean one was blocked which removed it from the sales area.

Frankly that upset me due to the principle of the thing. I had corresponded with support numerous times so they eventually blocked it. It was like trying to talk to a person on the other side of a concrete wall so could never actually see the person.

So I got creative and checked Amazon on D2D and presto, my blocked book was back on. The block still shows up on my bookshelf though.

I wonder if books that come through D2D go through the same treatment that the ones that are posted direct to Amazon through KDP. I think if I lose any of my erotic novels to Amazon support, I will just unpublish them on Amazon and check publish to Amazon on D2D. It might work since it could be a loophole.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Virginia Wade said:


> My Bigfoot sales took a nosedive at the beginning of Sept 2012. I don't know what happened, but it was some kind of algorithm change or something. Right when Aug turned over into Sept sales plummeted overnight. It was dramatic. Then they slid every month since then, until I began work on another pen name in late spring 2013. I was forced out of the genre a long time ago.
> 
> I joke with friends that Amazon had a meeting and they looked over my sales. One of the executives said, "Holy sh*t! She's making how much selling this crap? We gotta cut her off now."
> 
> I don't know if that's true or not, but lots of authors saw their sales plummet that month and they have never recovered.


Do you see a boost in sales when you get national attention like this? I'm just being nosey.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Prudes. C'mon, who doesn't love monster pron


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Virginia Wade said:


> My Bigfoot sales took a nosedive at the beginning of Sept 2012. I don't know what happened, but it was some kind of algorithm change or something. Right when Aug turned over into Sept sales plummeted overnight. It was dramatic. Then they slid every month since then, until I began work on another pen name in late spring 2013. I was forced out of the genre a long time ago.


That was right around the time the Penthouse article came out.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

The fact that Amazon is trying to hide the monster porn unless you specifically search for them is understandable from a business standpoint. I'm guessing what they're making off it isn't worth the hassle they think they'll get when they become, somehow, identified with "monster porn". Remember, books are a VERY SMALL percentage of their overall profits.

Having said that, the fact that there is not only a market, but a BIG market for this stuff, makes me chuckle. It used to be if you wanted to know what kind of freaky stuff people are into you would check their medicine cabinet; now, you just need to check their Kindle.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> Do you see a boost in sales when you get national attention like this? I'm just being nosey.


I don't know yet. I think my author rank went up a little. After the Penthouse mention last year I thought I would see an increase in sales, but all I got was crickets. We shall see if things move now. Poor Virginia has been straggling along, buoyed by boxed sets for a while, but not much else.


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## Revolution (Sep 17, 2012)

1001nightspress said:


> Weird. I have a kink erotica series that did the same thing. It was never as big as your stuff, but it was like a faucet was just shut off. Same month. Hmmmm.


That's so unfair and very shady. I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to smoke out erotica authors instead of cutting them off completely, which would end in backlash.

That article was hilarious, though.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Virginia Wade said:


> My Bigfoot sales took a nosedive at the beginning of Sept 2012. I don't know what happened, but it was some kind of algorithm change or something. Right when Aug turned over into Sept sales plummeted overnight. It was dramatic. Then they slid every month since then, until I began work on another pen name in late spring 2013. I was forced out of the genre a long time ago.
> 
> I joke with friends that Amazon had a meeting and they looked over my sales. One of the executives said, "Holy sh*t! She's making how much selling this crap? We gotta cut her off now."
> 
> I don't know if that's true or not, but lots of authors saw their sales plummet that month and they have never recovered.


Count me as one of them. At the time I was writing Femme Dom stuff (dominant women/submissive men). I was raking in close to 1k a month. Not a fortune at all ... but enough to really make diff in my life. My sales have pretty much plummeted to pennies. I still haven't figured out a way to get back on track. I switched to erom and had some minor success for a short while, but nothing to write home about.

I know people are probably going to flock to the "monster sex" bandwagon. But I caution, thanks to filtering it's much.. much harder to sell erotica now. I have two new short works I published in early December. They've only sold about 20 copies between them. That's really unusual for me. Just last year a new erotica short would net me an easy $50 to $100 bucks the first month. I'm hearing similar stories from smaller authors like myself. Really popular erotica writers are doing great... but if you're a lesser-known it's much harder now.

Oh and congratulations Virginia.... you are a doll! Love that article


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

Just when you are making money hand over fist from your gold mine, the vein of gold runs out.  That frequently happened in the gold days here in Colorado so mansions that were started being built were abandoned half way through.

It makes you wonder what to write these days.


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## georgette (Sep 4, 2013)

I was in the same boat.  I had a stellar summer of 2012 writing erotica,  made about $12,000 in my fourth month, and then in September, the exact same thing happened - my sales dropped to $7,000, then $5,000, then I was struggling to get them up t0 $3,000 or $4,000. It was really, really stressful and awful.  I had just been on the verge of paying off debts and getting ahead, and then the money stream dried up.  The same thing happened to numerous other authors who write erotica.

From Amazon's standpoint, I understand that they don't want to look like the bookstore equivalent of a porn shop.  I understand why they hide those books now.

So, Vicki, here's why you shouldn't give up - after months of declining sales, I gave up on erotica and  I debuted a new erotic romance pen name in February. My first book sold about 1600 copies that month. I kept studying the bestseller list to see what sells in romance. I read a lot of the bestselling authors to see what they're doing, how they structure their stories, etc.  And I am now earning far more than I did in my best month as an erotica writer. 

Read through the romance bestseller list and see what's selling, and try that - it worked for me.  Just keep trying different genres, possibly under different pen names, and when you find something that takes off for you - run with it!


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

georgette said:


> From Amazon's standpoint, I understand that they don't want to look like the bookstore equivalent of a porn shop. I understand why they hide those books now.


I understand, but at the same time I don't. Some might voice outrage, but that these books sell like hotcakes is an indication to me that most aren't particularly bothered by it. No market = no sales. Ignore a market and someone will come along to fill that vacuum....

...hmm, maybe I should go see if NothingButSmutBooks.com is available.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Just when you are making money hand over fist from your gold mine, the vein of gold runs out. That frequently happened in the gold days here in Colorado so mansions that were started being built were abandoned half way through.
> 
> It makes you wonder what to write these days.


I think the key to sustaining making money with erotica is diversity. Not only diversity within erotica, but also branching outside of it. That will help even out the low points.

I made the mistake of focusing too much on the P.I. for the first year and a half, and was extremely vulnerable during the Paypal debacle. I've begun to spread out, especially since the latest crackdown by Amazon, and next year I plan on focusing more of my time on non-erotica.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I understand, but at the same time I don't. Some might voice outrage, but that these books sell like hotcakes is an indication to me that most aren't particularly bothered by it. No market = no sales. Ignore a market and someone will come along to fill that vacuum....
> 
> ...hmm, maybe I should go see if NothingButSmutBooks.com is available.


Rick,

This is exactly what I was thinking. In this strange world we live in today Amazon had become the major channel or at least a major channel for this type of fiction. Obviously when they make changes to their search algorithm or other changes which affect access to these titles it directly affects sales. That says to me that there is a demand for this product that may not be met. With all the really smart people who work in this genre posting I haven't really picked up on alternative supply channel. I'm wondering now if there is someone already working on this or if it already exists?


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> I think the key to sustaining making money with erotica is diversity. Not only diversity within erotica, but also branching outside of it. That will help even out the low points.


I agree with you there. After reading some of Virgina Wade's first book, I decided I didn't write erotic books. I write regular clean books with a few sex scenes thrown in for good measure.

Next year I want to expand to Biblical characters since they are very interesting and are not exactly moralistic or nice. If you have ever attended Sunday School, you will have noticed that the teachers make them seem better than they actually were.

I want to write another nonfiction book that I have put on the back shelf.

So there is plenty out there to write about.

Another comment about Virgina Wade, her books flow well and she is a talented writer so could write about anything and be successful.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Chris P. O'Grady said:


> Rick,
> 
> This is exactly what I was thinking. In this strange world we live in today Amazon had become the major channel or at least a major channel for this type of fiction. Obviously when they make changes to their search algorithm or other changes which affect access to these titles it directly affects sales. That says to me that there is a demand for this product that may not be met. With all the really smart people who work in this genre posting I haven't really picked up on alternative supply channel. I'm wondering now if there is someone already working on this or if it already exists?


A few people have tried. The problem is some of the payment processors (most notably Paypal and Visa) are really wary when it comes to written erotica. It's crazy that any yahoo can open a straight out porn site, but people who want to sell the written word are given a hard time.

I also know that both Selena Kitt and Carl East (two wonderful writers), have opened up their own storefronts. I'm not sure how successful they are.

All Romance e-books sells some stuff, mostly erotic shape-shifter, vampire, etc.. so that's another venue to check out.

_I haven't given up, I'm just trying to get my sea-legs back. I'm a little wobbly still  _


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I understand, but at the same time I don't. Some might voice outrage, but that these books sell like hotcakes is an indication to me that most aren't particularly bothered by it. No market = no sales. Ignore a market and someone will come along to fill that vacuum....


Amazon seems to think that most ARE, in fact, bothered by it.
True, there is a reader segment who reads these stories for about as long as it takes to... well, you know. 99 cents and you're done.
Likely, the same people are buying a lot of these.

Meanwhile, there is a massive number of readers out there who are bothered and who would be likely to turn away from Amazon if it became known as an outlet for people publishing anything for a fast buck. We're already adversely affected by poorly written books, lack of editing etc that is giving indies a black eye. We're seeing articles that feed into this by suggesting separate online storefronts for indies. We hear comments from friends and neighbors who don't understand self-publishing.

I don't imagine that Amazon is cramming "hotcakes" into a corner without having considered that move very seriously.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Amazon seems to think that most ARE, in fact, bothered by it.


I think that Amazon is confused by what is erotic and what is porn. I can understand that since even the highest court in the land couldn't describe it.

However, as authors, we can tell the difference. If the sex in the story can be removed and still has a good story line then it is erotic. If the sex is removed and the story falls apart then it is simple porn.

However, it is still a gray area which is hard to understand so maybe we authors are confused too.


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## portlandrocks (Jul 18, 2013)

This is a brilliant case study in how potentially powerful selling direct could be for authors.


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## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

portlandrocks said:


> This is a brilliant case study in how potentially powerful selling direct could be for authors.


Except that it's difficult to find a payment processor who'll handle the hardcore stuff, not to mention attracting readers to an author site rather than the big online sellers they feel comfortable with.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

If Amazon is going to have a moral panic every month over whatever types of absurd erotica women write for other women's amusement and laughter, it's going to get very old fast.  There needs to be a bookseller out who just doesn't care and doesn't think this is going to end civilization.  There needs to be a CEO of an ebook seller who's female and who gets the point.


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## georgette (Sep 4, 2013)

I agree that there's a huge market for the types of books that Amazon has now either banned or made it near impossible to find. (And Barnes and Noble and Kobo and other sites have done the same thing as well.) Barnes and Noble openly admits that they change their algorythms so that certain types of erotica don't appear in their top 100 bestseller list, no matter how well they're actually selling. They could be outselling every other book on the list, but they still won't show up where they should.

It's frustrating, but again, from a merchant's standpoint, I understand why these bookstores are doing what they're doing.  

I do wish that there could be a successful storefront for these types of books, but I just don't think realistically that there will ever be a storefront where erotica writers could achieve the sales they used to achieve on Amazon.  Readers had already bought their kindles and Nooks, and were on there browsing anyway.  Getting readers to come to a brand new website is kind of like trying to lure them away from a huge established chain store to a tiny specialty store.  I hope I"m wrong, mind you.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Will one of you please explain something to me?  You are all saying that Amazon is hiding your stuff and doesn't want to sell it.  Then why can I find over 100,000 erotic books at Amazon any day of the week?  It was 102,000 last time I did a search actually.  All you have to do is type erotica into the search.  It is not that hard.  I actually appreciate that it is not out in the total open where dear Aunt Sally can't see it and report it.  I don't want it taken away from me.    

Heck even the video stores back in the day, kept the good stuff in a back room so little Johnny couldn't see it.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Will one of you please explain something to me? You are all saying that Amazon is hiding your stuff and doesn't want to sell it. Then why can I find over 100,000 erotic books at Amazon any day of the week? It was 102,000 last time I did a search actually. All you have to do is type erotica into the search. It is not that hard. I actually appreciate that it is not out in the total open where dear Aunt Sally can't see it and report it. I don't want it taken away from me.
> 
> Heck even the video stores back in the day, kept the good stuff in a back room so little Johnny couldn't see it.


There's enough erotica on Amazon you can ban whole swathes of it and it won't even look like you've made a dent when you go searching for it. As for myself, Amazon's banned my best selling title and tried to ban one of my other books twice, even though my covers and descriptions are pretty tame. Like I said, it gets old fast.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Will one of you please explain something to me? You are all saying that Amazon is hiding your stuff and doesn't want to sell it. Then why can I find over 100,000 erotic books at Amazon any day of the week? It was 102,000 last time I did a search actually. All you have to do is type erotica into the search. It is not that hard.


Usually I don't agree with you, but I decided to humor you so I typed in erotica. Bingo, you were right since my search said 128,891.

So I guess that erotica is not yet dead.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

Amazon does not want to be known as peddling porn. No one wants kids to see naughty titles and read filthy descriptions, etc. I can understand that. However, there is a big market for these types of stories. I've seen more sales on Smashwords for my older daddy stories. Amazon removed most of those months back. The demand never went away.

Quite a few of my Virginia books would fall apart if you took out the sex. Guilty as charged!

Vicky, thank you. That's sweet.  

Thanks also, Wild Rivers.  

Swolf, yes. Branching out is essential. I never wrote just PI. When the PayPal crackdown happened, it wasn't catastrophic for me. I only had like 5 of those stories.

Speaking of writing other things...last spring I totally switched gears and pounced on a different genre. I studied it, read several popular books, emulated the covers, and then I proceeded to write a series of my own making. It was very successful. Even more successful than monster sex. Finding niche genres with large readerships can lead to big sales. (This is not a new concept.)


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## MsTee (Jul 30, 2012)

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Don't bother competing with Amazon/Barnes/Kobo, etc. Instead, find a way to stand on their wide, wide shoulders.

A suggestion to any lurking, enterprising techie-buff: Create a nifty Kindle/Android app where you can sell the books and readers could download it automagically onto their device. 

I'd do it myself, but I'm too lazy to learn another tech language.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Will one of you please explain something to me? You are all saying that Amazon is hiding your stuff and doesn't want to sell it. Then why can I find over 100,000 erotic books at Amazon any day of the week? It was 102,000 last time I did a search actually. All you have to do is type erotica into the search. It is not that hard. I actually appreciate that it is not out in the total open where dear Aunt Sally can't see it and report it. I don't want it taken away from me.
> 
> Heck even the video stores back in the day, kept the good stuff in a back room so little Johnny couldn't see it.


This has been explained before.

Yes, you can find thousands of erotica books on Amazon, but if your book is given the adult filter, then it isn't included in those search results. You have to specifically search for that book to find it, and even then you have to be in the right place.

Which doesn't matter to someone searching for erotica, but if you're trying to sell erotica, it's a hell of a big deal. If your book disappears from searches, it's almost like it doesn't exist.

If you want to use the analogy of the back room of the video store, then Amazon's adult filter would be like the store taking some of the videos out of the back room and placing them somewhere where even the customers looking for porn wouldn't find them, and only offering them to rent if the customer specifically asked for one of those titles.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Yes, you can find thousands of erotica books on Amazon, but if your book is given the adult filter, then it isn't included in those search results. You have to specifically search for that book to find it, and even then you have to be in the right place.
> 
> Which doesn't matter to someone searching for erotica, but if you're trying to sell erotica, it's a hell of a big deal. If your book disappears from searches, it's almost like it doesn't exist.


I guess I don't understand this logic. Is this true and what is your proof of it? This adult filter is something that Amazon doesn't even claim to exist.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

swolf said:


> If you want to use the analogy of the back room of the video store, then Amazon's adult filter would be like the store taking some of the videos out of the back room and placing them somewhere where even the customers looking for porn wouldn't find them, and only offering them to rent if the customer specifically asked for one of those titles.


They're filtering the filtered stuff? Holy moly, what are you people writing 
Given what is freely available and easily found, you must really be digging around in some dark places.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Is this true and what is your proof of it?


Go to the main Amazon page and type 'Nerd Lust' in the search field and click on 'Go.' You'll see my book show up as the first in the list. That book doesn't have the adult filter on it.

Stay on the main page and type in 'Sharing a Taboo Bed' in the search field and click on 'Go.' My book doesn't appear in the search results. That book has the adult filter on it.

Now, click on the little 'All' box to the left of search field and select 'Kindle Store' from the dropdown. Click 'Go' again. There's my book. That's the difference the adult filter makes. And it's a big difference.

Sales drop off significantly because the book isn't available from the main search. That's because most readers type in keywords, not titles they know, into the main search. And they get back results, so they think they're getting back all the books that match their search. And, like you, most readers aren't aware of the filter, so they never know they have to search in the Kindle Store to get all results.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Quiss said:


> They're filtering the filtered stuff? Holy moly, what are you people writing
> Given what is freely available and easily found, you must really be digging around in some dark places.


Amazon outright bans the dark places.

Some of my books that are under the adult filter:

Tow Job - a woman has sex with her father-in-law
Lockout - a woman locks herself out of her house in a towel and then has sex with her 18-year-old neighbor
Beast - a woman has sex with her father-in-law
Surprise Lover - a guy has sex with his mother-n-law
Unwanted Advice - a guy has sex with his 18-year-old sister-in-law
An Unused Talent - a married guy has sex with his married sister-in-law
Spanked at My Friend's House - an 18-year-old girl is spanked and then has sex with her friend's father.
Wedding Night Substitute - a woman has sex with her 18-year-old brother-in-law on her wedding night
My Secret Bi Lover - a woman has sex with her sister-in-law
Sponge Bath - a nurse gives her adult brother-in-law a sponge-bath and then has sex with him
Trading Places - Identical twin sisters trade places to have sex with each other's husbands

Yeah, that's some scary stuff. 

Of course, most of my step-incest book are under the adult filter also. Even now, after Amazon has forced us to remove all mention that they're about step-incest in the blurb.


----------



## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

So you are saying that incest books are filtered and others aren't.  I think that your evidence is sort of weak but maybe you are right or perhaps there is just a bug in the search engine.

I don't write incest books so can't say for sure.


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## djv1120 (Dec 7, 2013)

Quiss said:


> They're filtering the filtered stuff? Holy moly, what are you people writing
> Given what is freely available and easily found, you must really be digging around in some dark places.


You are totally right about the "dark places" some people are writing about. I started reading the article originally presented and the stuff that it was talking about just about made me sick. Seriously.

I'm not saying that anybody posting on this board has gone that far, but there is simply something wrong with people writing about monsters, aliens, demons, fathers, etc. raping women. Even the stories that are more or less consentual are pretty much just porn. This stuff used to be consigned to adult magazines that were plastic wrapped and kept behind the counter. Now my 12 year old with a Kindle can get them. The graphic descriptions alone are more than kids should be reading in many cases.

I, for one, applaud Amazon for trying to clean this stuff up.

I am sure I am offending some people on this board, but that's just my 2 cents.

Dave


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> So you are saying that incest books are filtered and others aren't.


No, that's not what I'm saying.



Wild Rivers said:


> I think that your evidence is sort of weak but maybe you are right or perhaps there is just a bug in the search engine.


Amazon has admitted it exists.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

Sex scares people, it drives a stake of fear into their hearts.  Now guns...that's alright.  Killing's fine, creating, well, that's a no-no.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

djv1120 said:


> I, for one, applaud Amazon for trying to clean this stuff up.


Makes no sense. So you're ok with Amazon allowing your 12-year-old to read blurbs about people getting tied up and whipped while having sex, but not blurbs about people having sex with Bigfoot?

It would make much more sense for Amazon to create a blanket filter and put ALL erotica and porn behind it. That way, it could be turned on for children, and adults could view it if they wanted to. If Amazon did that, all these problems would go away.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Amazon has admitted it exists.


Do you actually have a documented source or is that just hearsay?"


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Do you actually have a documented source or is that just hearsay?"


This is getting tiresome. Why are you assuming your ignorance is fact?

http://www.lauryndoll.com/amazon-adult-filter/



> Since learning of this issue, I have contacted Amazon several times for help in this regard, but I got generic and unspecific responses that will not satisfy my query. Here's the first response I got from them on June 5th.
> 
> Hello, We reserve the right to make judgments about whether or not content is appropriate; this can include the cover image or the content within the book. *We have found your Kindle book contains mature content and as a result it will not surface in our general product search results.* Thanks for using Amazon KDP.





> It discouraged me greatly. However, after 2 months, I decided to push the issue again. I emailed them once more, providing specific title information and comparing my book to another title. (Gag on My ****. There, I said it. It's not filtered. Go see.) Here's their new response:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


And here's a website that actually shows which books have been placed under the filter:

http://sre.novelrank.com/

This stuff isn't new. We've been discussing it here for over a year. And your clueless insinuation that I'm making it up is annoying.


----------



## Spinneyhead (Nov 4, 2010)

ChristinePope said:


> Except that it's difficult to find a payment processor who'll handle the hardcore stuff, not to mention attracting readers to an author site rather than the big online sellers they feel comfortable with.


If I were building a site I'd make it for multiple authors- a co-operative or whatever agreement worked- and I'd use one of the established adult payment processors, such as CCBill. I was looking at their services for vendors a couple of months ago and I think they could deal with sales of individual downloads. They've got well established systems for dealing with subscriptions, so you could set up your own version of Prime, where customers would pay to be able to download any of the currently available titles for a set monthly fee and authors would get a cut of the take (based upon number of downloads, number of books in the scheme or some other measure that could be agreed upon.


----------



## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Wild Rivers said:


> So you are saying that incest books are filtered and others aren't. I think that your evidence is sort of weak but maybe you are right or perhaps there is just a bug in the search engine.
> 
> I don't write incest books so can't say for sure.


Are you serious?!?!?

Erotica authors have been blogging and news articles have been written about this for over a year! You know like the one that's linked to at the beginning of this thread.

And it's not just "incest" books and stories. Erotica authors are being hit by the filter left-and-right. People are having entire back lists put into draft mode.

So here's the short version for you. Amazon is filtering indie published erotic books and short stories. They remove them from the main search. This makes them hard to find. This costs authors money.

Got it?

* What should alarm all indies, is that Amazon has a mechanism for filtering search results. At some point what's to stop them from slapping an "Indie" filter on all self-published work. This would effectively regulate your books to an "Indie Ghetto", where people would have a hard time finding them. If you don't care.. that's why you should.


----------



## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.  Maybe there are other reasons that your books are not doing well. 

'A young man was walking along and saw this old man beating on a drum.  The young man asked what he was doing.  "I am beating on this drum to scare off the tigers," he said.  

The young man looked around and said, 'There are no tigers for thousands  of miles around  here."

"Works great, doesn't it?"'

I think this filter idea has been batted back and forth so much that a lot of people believe it. Belief does not make it real. Personally until I see some hard evidence, I am not going to believe it.  Nobody really knows what Amazon does, but a lot of people think they do.


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## djv1120 (Dec 7, 2013)

swolf said:


> Makes no sense. So you're ok with Amazon allowing your 12-year-old to read blurbs about people getting tied up and whipped while having sex, but not blurbs about people having sex with Bigfoot?
> 
> It would make much more sense for Amazon to create a blanket filter and put ALL erotica and porn behind it. That way, it could be turned on for children, and adults could view it if they wanted to. If Amazon did that, all these problems would go away.


Actually, I am not ok with my 12 year old daughter reading any of it. I actually like your idea of putting ALL erotica/porn behind a filter so you have to intentionally look for it.

So, who's gonna contact Amazon and suggest that all erotica/porn gets filtered?

Dave


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

djv1120 said:


> You are totally right about the "dark places" some people are writing about. I started reading the article originally presented and the stuff that it was talking about just about made me sick. Seriously.
> 
> I'm not saying that anybody posting on this board has gone that far, but there is simply something wrong with people writing about monsters, aliens, demons, fathers, etc. raping women. Even the stories that are more or less consentual are pretty much just porn. This stuff used to be consigned to adult magazines that were plastic wrapped and kept behind the counter. Now my 12 year old with a Kindle can get them. The graphic descriptions alone are more than kids should be reading in many cases.
> 
> ...


One thing you might notice about the bulk of these stories being written about monsters "raping" women. They're almost all written by women and for women. They're female fantasies. With an emphasis on the fantasy aspect.

Frankly, I do find what you're saying offensive. I find it offensive that you think you have the right to pass judgment on what goes on inside other people's heads. You clearly say that something is "wrong with people writing" about the topics you mention.

I fail to see what. No one is being hurt. No one is being imprisoned. No one is even being stolen from.

I might get a bit iffy about live action porn, because I'm never sure if it's possible that the actors involved aren't being exploited in some ways (both male and female), but I really can't see an argument that makes any kind of sense against words. *Just* words.

For the record, I don't write monster sex books. I don't even write erotica. However, my fiction is sexually explicit, though I tend to write in genres where it's tolerated, even if it's taboo or disturbing, and I have to say that I think it's patently unfair that erotica is singled out in the way that it is.

I don't have any children of my own, and I don't know if I can really understand what it's like not to want twelve-year-olds to read to about deviant sex acts. I know that the first time I ever saw any kind of pornography, I was probably eleven. I was at a slumber party, and the girl secretly dug it out of her parents' hiding place. I can't say that I felt like anything really bad happened to me as a result of seeing that, but... I mean, that's an anecdotal thing, and it was fairly mild stuff. I did read a good bit of Clive Barker as a teenager, and there's a lot of weird monster sex in his books. I don't know. Maybe if I had run into one of those undead Nightbreed monster things, I would have surrendered my virtue to him. Fortunately, they don't exist. Anyway, while I think a case could be made for a unchecked amount of deviant literature warping a young mind, I also think that a lot of other things would need to be absent. Like a stable family life. And a lack of a moral compass. I think a lot of *other* things would also have to be wrong with a twelve-year-old before reading "Cum for Bigfoot" would really scar her. And even then, maybe she'd have to read the whole Bigfoot series.

There's probably no reason to engage you. I rather imagine that there's nothing I could say that would change your mind. You seem to be the kind of person who's determined that if something makes you sick, then it's clearly awful and should be cleaned up. You're not interested in using anything other than your own personal reaction to a subject to judge its harmfulness. But I felt like there was something wrong with what you said, and I felt that I needed to speak out about it. So, in that case, I suppose, we have something in common.



Wild Rivers said:


> It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Maybe there are other reasons that your books are not doing well.
> 
> I think this filter idea has been batted back and forth so much that a lot of people believe it. Belief does not make it real. Personally until I see some hard evidence, I am not going to believe it. Nobody really knows what Amazon does, but a lot of people think they do.


Um... well, there are many authors who had a book that was not behind the filter, which was selling well. Then the book went behind the filter, and sales dried up. This isn't just one person. This is lots of authors. There have been many discussions about it on this board. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to, I guess, but...



djv1120 said:


> Actually, I am not ok with my 12 year old daughter reading any of it. I actually like your idea of putting ALL erotica/porn behind a filter so you have to intentionally look for it.


I don't think anyone would mind that if it was:

-consistent, with clearly defined perimeters. (But, boy, buddy does that get iffy. I was mentioning Clive Barker upthread. His books are horror. They have sexually explicit scenes. Who's going to read all of the books and determine which ones are adult and which ones aren't? Where's the line?)

-clearly marked as "on" or "off," possibly with a password setting for accounts shared with children.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Maybe there are other reasons that your books are not doing well.
> 
> 'A young man was walking along and saw this old man beating on a drum. The young man asked what he was doing. "I am beating on this drum to scare off the tigers," he said.
> 
> ...


I worked in Amazon corporate for more than three years. I worked in vendor services where I reviewed and approved accounts. I worked with the legal team, technical account managers, and customer service. I have a pretty good idea.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I worked in Amazon corporate for more than three years. I worked in vendor services where I reviewed and approved accounts. I worked with the legal team, technical account managers, and customer service. I have a pretty good idea.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I would love to get you alone (hand you a glass of wine or something) and ahem...pick your brain.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Wild Rivers said:


> It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Maybe there are other reasons that your books are not doing well.
> 
> 'A young man was walking along and saw this old man beating on a drum. The young man asked what he was doing. "I am beating on this drum to scare off the tigers," he said.
> 
> ...


I've decided that you must be trolling. Because no one can be this obtuse.

You were shown an email from Amazon that referenced the filter and numerous other bits of factual information. The filter is real.. Amazon admits it's there.

Numerous erotica authors have called and emailed Amazon about it. These same authors have posted about this on their own blogs, even going as far as copy/pasting the responses they received.

In Short: 
There is an Adult filter. 
You can demo it working. 
You can write amazon to ask about it. 
Someone posted an email from Amazon that specifically references the filter.. and Amazon stated that they will not remove it. 
You can even Google search "Amazon Adult Filter" and bring up countless pages of information about it. Including pages form Amazon's own KDP support pages. 
There are news articles about filtering and book removals, targeting Erotica Authors.

How much hard evidence do you need?


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Virginia Wade said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but I would love to get you alone (hand you a glass of wine or something) and ahem...pick your brain.


I would spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Wild Rivers said:


> Belief does not make it real.


How about the fact that many people have demonstrated it working, for themselves, and commented extensively on their findings: does that make it real?

How about the fact that email replies from Amazon support make open references to it: does that make it real?

How about the fact that when discussing it with people, Amazon staff say that it isn't going to be removed: does that make it real?

How about the fact that there's information about it on Amazon's own KDP support pages: does that make it real?

I'm starting to think that you may have a very different understanding of what the word "real" means from others posting in this thread.



Wild Rivers said:


> until I see some hard evidence, I am not going to believe it.


I like to think that I require real evidence of theories before I believe them, but even to me, this is fact rather than theory.

I'm wondering just how "hard" you need your evidence to be?


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

How about this email from Amazon:

Hello,

Thank you for your recent email regarding the following books:

Moan For Bigfoot (The Monster Sex Series) (ASIN: B006KZ7TWQ)
The Moan For Bigfoot Anthology, Volume 1 (The Monster Sex Series) (ASIN: B00CR2C1VK)

*During our review, we found that the titles of your books contain mature content, and therefore won't surface in our general product search. *

You can modify your books to remove the mature content and resubmit them for publication. If you choose to remove the mature content, please reply back to this email once you have submitted your books and we will review your new submission.

We appreciate your understanding.

Best Regards,

XXX

Is that pretty clear?


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

As I have posted on here before, I am generally not a fan of the deluge of 'sex scenes dressed up as books to try to make a quick buck' (tm) on Amazon.

However, reading that article I realised that there is a great source of humourous/parody erotic in all this.  Some of those tongue in cheek titles were hilarious.  Reminded me of a short story I got on Amazon called Rising Son which was also an erotica parody.  I have checked out the "look inside" of a few erotica books and they were so silly/cliched I wasn't sure if they were parody or not.

I reckon if a few talented comedy/humourous writers started putting out erotica parody with crazy titles like some of these monster porn ones, I think it could be really interesting!

Does anyone else know of any good erotica parody/humour ala Rising Son?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Virginia,
I don't know if this is good news or bad, but when I typed in your name all your books came up.
Now when I typed in Bigfoot, you did not show up.
When I did Bigfoot erotica, you were 5th on the list with Moan for Bigfoot.

You are welcome.  I hope this answers a few questions.
Now off to get me some Bigfoot because that is a genre I haven't tried.


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## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

Most of what I've published is meant to be tongue in cheek. My best seller this month, which funnily enough appears on a top 100 list for something decidedly non-erotica related, as does its cousin, which is filtered (yes, there is a Santa Claus and a filter on Amazon). Each involves relations with mythological creatures, and there is no part of me that takes the stories seriously. The same can be said of my having thrown together bbw-billionaire-werewolf-etc tales, though ultimately my not taking the subject matter seriously got me into trouble with readers who expect the usual fare.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

We had the search restrictions lifted for some of the Bigfoots, but I wrote like 16 of them, so it was exhausting. Hubby was responsible for emailing and fixing things. We changed some titles and left the others. I figured that if readers wanted to continue with the series, they could hunt down the other installments. 

Writing this stuff was so much fun. I never took it seriously. It's campy and filthy and ridiculous. I miss it sometimes. I still have to write the last one. If I knew the BI article was going to be this popular, I would have had book #17 ready to go. I had no idea it would blow up like this.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Virginia Wade said:


> We had the search restrictions lifted for some of the Bigfoots, but I wrote like 16 of them, so it was exhausting. Hubby was responsible for emailing and fixing things. We changed some titles and left the others. I figured that if readers wanted to continue with the series, they could hunt down the other installments.
> 
> Writing this stuff was so much fun. I never took it seriously. It's campy and filthy and ridiculous. I miss it sometimes. I still have to write the last one. If I knew the BI article was going to be this popular, I would have had book #17 ready to go. I had no idea it would blow up like this.


I picked up Moan and Date. I already had Billionaire Kink.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

Happy reading!


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

I find it a little annoying, for lack of better words, that the erotica genre is looked at as 'filth', and anything out of the ordinary is 'sick'.
It's - generally - written by women for women as an outlet for fantasies, and shaming people who write or read it is incredibly narrow-minded.

To some extent I can see the need to control written material that would be illegal if acted out in real life, but when it comes to monster erotica (or legal-aged in-law shenanigans), that's not even an argument. Then it's just someone on a high horse trying to convert everyone else to *their* view of what's morally acceptable, and boy, if we're playing that game, I'd like to go over the porn industry with a large, red marker, because _ew_.
- What? I could just _not_ flip through magazines featuring the things that gross me out..?

If you don't want your kid to dl erotica to their kindle, monitor their amazon usage like you hopefully monitor their other internet browsing.

/rant over


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> I find it a little annoying, for lack of better words, that the erotica genre is looked at as 'filth', and anything out of the ordinary is 'sick'.
> It's - generally - written by women for women as an outlet for fantasies, and shaming people who write or read it is incredibly narrow-minded.
> 
> To some extent I can see the need to control written material that would be illegal if acted out in real life, but when it comes to monster erotica (or legal-aged in-law shenanigans), that's not even an argument. Then it's just someone on a high horse trying to convert everyone else to *their* view of what's morally acceptable, and boy, if we're playing that game, I'd like to go over the porn industry with a large, red marker, because _ew_.
> ...


_"But the child is safe on the internet because she is using an iPad." _ Yes, I have actually heard that line. I do think children should be very monitored on the internet no matter what site they are on.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> _"But the child is safe on the internet because she is using an iPad." _ Yes, I have actually heard that line.


You're... you're kidding, right?


----------



## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

Sarah Wilder said:


> To some extent I can see the need to control written material that would be illegal if acted out in real life, but when it comes to monster erotica (or legal-aged in-law shenanigans), that's not even an argument.


Well, I take issue with this. First of all, one of the most common and prevalent fantasies for women is the rape fantasy. It's consistently at the top in surveys of women -- yes, women -- and about half of the romance genre flirts with it (they're not called 'bodice rippers' for nothing, hey?).

Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay for people to publish books where dozens of people are brutally murdered? That's also illegal, isn't it? But people like to read about it because deep down we're closer to our primeval roots then we want to admit.

We need to stop trying to purify everything and accept that sex, life, death, literature -- all of these things are messy and raw and don't fit nicely into neat packages. As soon as we try to force them into those packages they will break out in new ways, new forms of rebellion. It has always been this way.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

Also worth noting that Cosmo weighed in as well:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/news/bigfoot-erotica

This is my favorite:



> Monster erotica is about humans having sex with MYTHICAL BEASTS, to get upset that the content is too racy is silly and completely misses the point. Which is, OMG OF COURSE IT'S INAPPROPRIATE. Deciding where to draw the line with monster porn is an exercise in futility* - just let people have this totally fictional guilty pleasure.


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## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

Love it. 

There's a brilliant book by Ann Marie MacDonald called Fall on Your Knees, which involves incest, rape, you name it. I remember reading it and being horrified only because it was so well executed. You won't see it torn down from search engines, I'm sure.  

I get not wanting kids to find dirty books. But any kid with an ounce of resourcefulness knows that googling 'porn' is much more likely to lead to giggle-inducing findings than searching through amazon's database. 

I agree on the points about murder and general violence. The argument can't be that some of the sexual acts are illegal---it has to be that they're simply too dirty and offend some people. The beautiful thing is that those people are absolutely not forced to read the books. 

Someone should write erotica about a woman who is forced, against her will, to read erotica. Rowr.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I think of The Color Purple. The movie tamed down the lesbian relationship between Shug and Celie, but in the book, there is a scene in which Shug introduces Celie to sexual pleasure. The book has been banned because of that sexual relationship, plus the scenes involving rape and incest.


Growing up, I remember Vampires being considered horror monsters. Sometimes Dracula would be portrayed as a sexy man, but he was also portrayed as a cold-blooded killer. Then comes along Twilight and Vampires seem to have moved into mainstream.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> "But the child is safe on the internet because she is using an iPad." Yes, I have actually heard that line.
> You're... you're kidding, right?


No Sarah, I was not kidding. The woman actually thought her great-granddaughter that was living with her at the time was perfectly safe because it was an iPad and not a computer. I don't know that the bunch of us ever convinced her otherwise. Yes the woman did own a computer.

Heck I always watched the kiddos even if they were on nick, noggin or pbs.


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## MsTee (Jul 30, 2012)

swolf said:


> Some of my books that are under the adult filter:
> 
> Tow Job - a woman has sex with her father-in-law
> Lockout - a woman locks herself out of her house in a towel and then has sex with her 18-year-old neighbor
> ...


You didn't intend to promote, but this post showcases a pretty cool method of doing so. I couldn't help myself when I went a-clicking on your siggy links. 

Goes to show that you probably don't need paragraph-long blurbs! Just one sentence that gets to the heart of the matter. Ha!


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I think of The Color Purple. The movie tamed down the lesbian relationship between Shug and Celie, but in the book, there is a scene in which Shug introduces Celie to sexual pleasure. The book has been banned because of that sexual relationship, plus the scenes involving rape and incest.
> 
> Growing up, I remember Vampires being considered horror monsters. Sometimes Dracula would be portrayed as a sexy man, but he was also portrayed as a cold-blooded killer. Then comes along Twilight and Vampires seem to have moved into mainstream.


Where was this book banned? It is $8.08 at amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Color-Purple-Collection-ebook/dp/B005NY4QGM/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1387857423&sr=1-1&keywords=the+color+purple


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Where was this book banned? It is $8.08 at amazon.


I did a search on "color purple banned" and turns out it's been banned lots of places.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Diane Patterson said:


> I did a search on "color purple banned" and turns out it's been banned lots of places.


The other poster said the book had been banned which technically means that no one can get it.

Ok so I can't get in several libraries. The point is I can go to the biggest bookstore in the world and buy it.
Therefore it is not banned but inaccessible in certain places.

Heck I probably couldn't get "The Anarchist Cookbook" at many libraries either and I would hope that it has been banned in elementary school libraries.

Do you think school libraries should all have ''The Anarchist Cookbook"? I would bet it is on a bunch of ''banned" lists.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> You are totally right about the "dark places" some people are writing about. I started reading the article originally presented and the stuff that it was talking about just about made me sick. Seriously.
> 
> I'm not saying that anybody posting on this board has gone that far, but there is simply something wrong with people writing about monsters, aliens, demons, fathers, etc. raping women. Even the stories that are more or less consentual are pretty much just porn.


I can understand now why Amazon is upset by this type of material and controlling it. I don't write these types of novels myself and don't care to read them. It is just not something I enjoy; I guess I have lived a sheltered life.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Next silly/serious question.
What is the difference between erotica and p0rn?

And no chicken/feather jokes.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

Virginia Wade said:


> I'm not sure why they didn't include Dino erotica. They had a segment on the Colbert Report a few weeks ago featuring Dino stories. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429828/october-21-2013/tip-wag---new-jersey--robo-teachers---amazon-erotica Just fast forward to 4:25. It's hilarious.
> 
> Any hint of teens or underage, barely legal, virgin or young, etc., will get books sent straight into draft or blocked. Lots of titles and descriptions are now very vague and watered down.


To add to the whole thing that happened back in October, there is now an adult filter on Smashwords.com. I also noticed Oyster is up and running. There is no search bar, which I guess, might come up if you are a member. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed if books are up on Oyster, because maybe you have to be a member. But I assume, they may be or not depending if you have an adult tag on your book on Smashwords. This seems the most logical. Adults should be able to buy adult books, and kids shouldn't have them pop up in their searches. I'm guessing maybe Amazon feels that adult books will be all erotica. I mean, there are some sci-fi/fantasy books that have scenes in them that could be flagged. I also read Clan of the Cave Bears when I was 13. Should it have been flagged for sexual scenes? Video games and movies have ratings. Should books have a rating?

As far as monster porn, really. Not my taste, but I don't think I should tell others that they shouldn't read or write it. If it's their thing, no harm. Vampires were monsters until Anne Rice and Twilight came along. The new Frankenstein movie is giving a twist on that monster. Really, if we limit ourselves, the next new genre could be missed. Creativity shouldn't be sensored, but letting people know what they are buying is a responsibility of an author and seller.

I like the way All Romance Books lets publishers and authors rate their books in flame level. Currently, I'm three flames. I'm comfortable with that, and a buyer can purchase at their level of comfort.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

djv1120 said:


> You are totally right about the "dark places" some people are writing about. I started reading the article originally presented and the stuff that it was talking about just about made me sick. Seriously.
> 
> I'm not saying that anybody posting on this board has gone that far, but there is simply something wrong with people writing about monsters, aliens, demons, fathers, etc. raping women. Even the stories that are more or less consentual are pretty much just porn. This stuff used to be consigned to adult magazines that were plastic wrapped and kept behind the counter. Now my 12 year old with a Kindle can get them. The graphic descriptions alone are more than kids should be reading in many cases.
> 
> ...


Blanket negation of a whole gender's sexuality and sexual fantasies makes me queasy.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2013)

I think we kind of lost it around the end of page 3.  Any fire left in this argument?  It was fun for awhile but then the Color Purple references made me think of Oprah and that kind of did it for me.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

EelKat said:


> Take a book that has the "filter" on it. Open it's page in FireFox...use the "Web Developer" option in the FireFox toolbar, click "Page Source"... FireFox will now open the webpage from the inside out, showing you the raw HTML/CSS/Java etc codes. If you spend enough time reading this random jumble of script code, you'll eventually see the words "ADULT FILTER" show up, muultiple times in the code Amazon wrote for the book's page.
> 
> Now take a book without the filter on it, repeat these same steps... go to the same section of the page where the words "ADULT FILTER" showed up and you will see in it's place "_" instead.
> 
> ...


I need hard evidence!


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## CRL (Nov 8, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Next silly/serious question.
> What is the difference between erotica and p0rn?
> 
> And no chicken/feather jokes.


It's erotica if you're writing it.

It's porn if you're reading it.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Take a book that has the "filter" on it. Open it's page in FireFox...use the "Web Developer" option in the FireFox toolbar, click "Page Source"... FireFox will now open the webpage from the inside out, showing you the raw HTML/CSS/Java etc codes. If you spend enough time reading this random jumble of script code, you'll eventually see the words "ADULT FILTER" show up, muultiple times in the code Amazon wrote for the book's page.
> 
> Now take a book without the filter on it, repeat these same steps... go to the same section of the page where the words "ADULT FILTER" showed up and you will see in it's place "_" instead.
> 
> ...


The way you explained it makes sense.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

CRL said:


> It's erotica if you're writing it.
> 
> It's porn if you're reading it.


I look at it a little differently: it's erotica if you're writing it; it's erotica if you're reading it; it's porn if _other people_ are reading it.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

zoe tate said:


> I look at it a little differently: it's erotica if you're writing it; it's erotica if you're reading it; it's porn if _other people_ are reading it.


That's pretty much it. Erotica is what I read. Porn is what that pervert over there is reading.

For most people, erotica has a positive connotation, while porn has a negative one. So they tend to lump the stuff they don't like into the porn category. And since everyone's tastes are different, we each have a different definition for what is erotica and what is porn.

Which is fine. The problems arise when people expect others to follow their personal definition.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

seela said:


> Well, I take issue with this. First of all, one of the most common and prevalent fantasies for women is the rape fantasy. It's consistently at the top in surveys of women -- yes, women -- and about half of the romance genre flirts with it (they're not called 'bodice rippers' for nothing, hey?).
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay for people to publish books where dozens of people are brutally murdered? That's also illegal, isn't it? But people like to read about it because deep down we're closer to our primeval roots then we want to admit.
> 
> We need to stop trying to purify everything and accept that sex, life, death, literature -- all of these things are messy and raw and don't fit nicely into neat packages. As soon as we try to force them into those packages they will break out in new ways, new forms of rebellion. It has always been this way.


Ah, that would be the "to some extent" part of my argument.
I have 0 issues with rape in erotica, but others do, and I had hoped to avoid explaining why I can sort-of-kinda-maybe see their point, because I'm inherently lazy.

I live in a country where rape porn is getting banned because of its negative impact on society's view on women. It's claimed that exposure to this sort of material desensitises men people to the distinction between consenting and forced sex, and trains them to see women as sexual objects rather than human beings of equal worth.
I don't know what sort of science is behind these claims, but I did look at some research that links the use of sexist jokes with a higher acceptance of actual rape, so if there is any transferability... they may have a point.

Normally, I'd say that there is a clear difference between porn of that nature made to titillate men, and the by-women, for-women written erotica, because the latter is done in a way that caters to the gender being portrayed as the victim. I lack the knowledge to argue about the psychological differences, but I assume most of us know they're there.
The problem is that if we say 'okay, written rape erotica is fine on Amazon' then we can't really ensure that all that gets uploaded is 'by women, for women' content, thus ensuing the depravity of their customer base and the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I digress.

My - at this point, somewhat muddled - point is that I don't mind rape erotica, and I don't mind it being available on 'zon, but I can't guarantee that the nay-sayers aren't correct in their claims that it opens the door for material that negatively impacts society's view on the female gender, and _if that's the case_ then I understand the need to control it.

Hence my 'to some extent' start.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> Ah, that would be the "to some extent" part of my argument.
> I have 0 issues with rape in erotica, but others do, and I had hoped to avoid explaining why I can sort-of-kinda-maybe see their point, because I'm inherently lazy.
> 
> I live in a country where rape porn is getting banned because of its negative impact on society's view on women. It's claimed that exposure to this sort of material desensitises men people to the distinction between consenting and forced sex, and trains them to see women as sexual objects rather than human beings of equal worth.
> ...


I don't see anything wrong with either variant. Or with other variants. Rape fantasies in one or another form, geared to be read by men or by women, straight or queer, is part of the human sexuality and condition. Just have a peek at Gengoroh Tagame's art (google for his website, it can be surfed in English) which is rape fantasies for queer men, and damn it, it is hot and turns my crank!

The negative view of society on women is negatively impacted by many things, written rape fantasies are probably those of the least import if looked at closely.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Nic said:


> I don't see anything wrong with either variant. Or with other variants. Rape fantasies in one or another form, geared to be read by men or by women, straight or queer, is part of the human sexuality and condition. Just have a peek at Gengoroh Tagame's art (google for his website, it can be surfed in English) which is rape fantasies for queer men, and d*mn it, it is hot and turns my crank!
> 
> The negative view of society on women is negatively impacted by many things, written rape fantasies are probably those of the least import if looked at closely.


I don't really want to argue on either side without some scientific data to support it.
My opinion is that if no one is hurt by it, then go right ahead - if it's not my thing I can simply not read/watch it. 'The other side's' argument is that it _is_ harmful to a group of people, and at this point I don't think anyone knows for absolute certain who's right.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> I don't really want to argue on either side without some scientific data to support it.
> My opinion is that if no one is hurt by it, then go right ahead - if it's not my thing I can simply not read/watch it. 'The other side's' argument is that it _is_ harmful to a group of people, and at this point I don't think anyone knows for absolute certain who's right.


I'd love to see the proof of it. These fantasies have existed for thousands of years in even the most peaceful societies. So far I haven't come across any scientific proof that fantasies are harmful.

I have different thoughts on "real" porn, as in filmed and to an extent also photographed pornography. Mainly however because of the work situation of a lot of the actors and actresses, which are not as rosy as often maintained. I also am a firm believer in having that porn under lock and key until the potential consumer is adult.

With regard to what needs to be done to combat the negative attitude towards women, I'd suggest mandatory sex-ed in all schools for at least 1-2 years with regular and comprehensive curricula including the full scope of human sexuality and relationships, the elimination of faith schools (any religion) and a complete separation of state and church, and that's just for starters. It would go a very long way already towards that goal, however.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

I think people should be able to write and read anything, and I mean anything. Keep it simple. Parsing and distinctions only lead to a longer and steeper slippery slope.

But where is the erotica readers' outrage over this crackdown?

It seems that the ebook was a boon to erotica because of the concealment and portability it offered. People could buy "adult" content in total privacy, and they could read it in public without fear of being spotted with a "naughty" cover in their hands.

This desire for anonymity on the part of erotica readers is reflected by erotica authors, virtually all of whom use pen names.

A tiny vocal minority will always have the upper hand against groups who marginalize themselves. Until erotica writers and readers come all of the way out of the closet and own their material, their "freedom of speech" will be the easiest to curtail.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Nic said:


> I'd love to see the proof of it. These fantasies have existed for thousands of years in even the most peaceful societies. So far I haven't come across any scientific proof that fantasies are harmful.
> 
> I have different thoughts on "real" porn, as in filmed and to an extent also photographed pornography. Mainly however because of the work situation of a lot of the actors and actresses, which are not as rosy as often maintained. I also am a firm believer in having that porn under lock and key until the potential consumer is adult.
> 
> With regard to what needs to be done to combat the negative attitude towards women, I'd suggest mandatory sex-ed in all schools for at least 1-2 years with regular and comprehensive curricula including the full scope of human sexuality and relationships, the elimination of faith schools (any religion) and a complete separation of state and church, and that's just for starters. It would go a very long way already towards that goal, however.


I'd love to see proof that it _isn't_ harmful, because that would make it so much easier to argue against the shaming of people who write and read it.

I see nothing wrong with your suggestions. As always though, I'd like to see the research behind any legislation before it's passed - something I'm not entirely sure exists behind the British ban of rape porn.


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## Chris P. O&#039;Grady (Oct 28, 2013)

The whole nature vs. nurture aspect of this discussion is pretty amazing. I'm pretty sure everyone here WON'T agree on right, wrong, good, evil etc.. Oh the majority will fall in fairly close I'm sure. This is like arguing religion and politics. All good and it helps the mind grow. 

On the business side...... Which is where the OP came from,  there are very real ramifications to the filtering of content which actually do affect the business success of many individuals. Or could, depending on content. I think what is most concerning to me as a business person is how an author can mitigate those risks. You literally could see years worth of work rolled back, only to have it happen again without clear rules in place about what can be published.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> I'd love to see proof that it _isn't_ harmful, because that would make it so much easier to argue against the shaming of people who write and read it.


I agree completely.

It's hard to prove negatives, though.

The burden of proof is always going to rest with those alleging harm. If it's so obvious to them, they ought to have convincing and irrefutable evidence for it. But "strangely", they never do, in spite of all the very well-funded searches for it over so many decades and in so many countries.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I went to see my doctor yesterday for a followup on my stroke.  While I was waiting I read a Virginia Wade novel on my Kindle.  I can't remember the title of the book but it was about these teenage girls that got abducted by monsters and terrible unmentionable things happened to them.  

The nurse came and got me and put me in a small room.  She checked my high blood pressure and looked shocked so ran and got a couple of nurses and doctors who panicked and started to call 911.  However, I managed to convinced them that I had only been reading a racy novel by Virgina Wade on my Kindle.

The doctor looked at me and said, "Well, that explains it so we won't worry about it.  We will check your blood pressure next month when you come in.  Don't read any of her novels in the waiting room though." 

Then she had second thoughts and said, "Maybe you shouldn't read any more of Virginia Wade's novels at all until I clear you as healthy enough to read them."


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Sarah Wilder said:


> I'd love to see proof that it _isn't_ harmful, because that would make it so much easier to argue against the shaming of people who write and read it.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with your suggestions. As always though, I'd like to see the research behind any legislation before it's passed - something I'm not entirely sure exists behind the British ban of rape porn.


Why should there be proof of it not being harmful? As Zoe pointed out, it's the other side who wants to ban things. They ought to have to proof something.

One problem of that whole debate is that visual, actual porn (as in porn movies and photography) get wildly mixed up with fiction and art. These are very different beasts, and are perceived differently as well, that much is scientific fact. Without even a discussion of the so-called proof behind these allegations, and there is and was none, things get thrown together which don't belong together.

As to proof about the beneficial effect of thorough and extended sex-ed for everyone and the complete separation of state and church, proof is readily available on the continent. Look to the Netherlands, Germany or France. They have not even a fragment of the teenage mums the UK has, a fragment of the STDs, a third to a half only of the amount of rape and even though or because they are well-informed a higher age of first sexual experiences. All this they have rather regardless of the religious fanaticism of their parents or the dogma of their parish priests.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Chris P. O'Grady said:


> The whole nature vs. nurture aspect of this discussion is pretty amazing. I'm pretty sure everyone here WON'T agree on right, wrong, good, evil etc.. Oh the majority will fall in fairly close I'm sure. This is like arguing religion and politics. All good and it helps the mind grow.
> 
> On the business side...... Which is where the OP came from, there are very real ramifications to the filtering of content which actually do affect the business success of many individuals. Or could, depending on content. I think what is most concerning to me as a business person is how an author can mitigate those risks. You literally could see years worth of work rolled back, only to have it happen again without clear rules in place about what can be published.


The new British web filters are affecting my ability to do business already. Readers are reporting that they can't access my web site and they can't join my mailing list because their ISPs block their access to my site and my Yahoo list.

I don't write rape porn or any other kind of erotica that could be considered 'taboo'. Just consensual erotica for women and erotic romance, a bit of light BDSM and some menage. Mild by most standards.

And apparently, many sex education sites, help sites for children affected by abuse, sites offering advice for people seeking information on gynecological and reproductive health issues, and a range of similar sites are also being blocked... presumably because they trigger certain keywords.


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