# When will Amazon do something about this????



## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

I am referring of course to the scammers who buy your book, read it, and then return it.
And then do the next one in your catalog.
And then the next.
And the next.
Until they've read them all, and you don't get a dime!

I have had this happen to me at least a dozen times. Up until today it was mainly in the UK. But I've watched over the last few days as this happened here in the US. A book gets sold, then later in the day, or the next day, returned. And as you watch, one at a time, on books I've never gotten returns on until my entire catalog has been read.

I have asked Amazon to do something about this, it is theft pure and simple. I have suggested that after someone has bought and returned 2 or 3 books by the same author that they be blocked from buying anymore of that author's books. Sounds reasonable, right? That at least would cut down on the abuse somewhat. But Amazon really doesn't seem to care and now I'm out royalties on 6 book sales.

I don't mind returns if someone started to read it, didn't like it, so sent it back. But when you have 6 in a row, one after the other, in sequence? Please. Especially as I know there are websites out there telling people to do this scam, because it works.

Sorry for the rant. I just wish they'd try to stop this practice.

-John


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

There have been many threads on this.  It's actually allowed per Amazon's terms of service: the purchaser of an eBook can return the book within 7 days for any reason, no questions asked.  

As a reader, I think it's a great policy: if I get a book that is really bad or poorly edited or formatted, or if I just click by accident or it's not what I expected ----- I can return it. No harm no foul.

This does not mean I condone people using the policy to read books for free. 

I don't think Amazon does either, and I expect they are very aware of the folks who do this. And will take action when they feel it's warranted.  Not that we'll ever know that -- unless the one against whom the action taken shares. Amazon is unlikely to publicize it, after all.

In the grand scheme of things I expect it's actually a Very Small Minority of the millions (maybe billions ?) of Amazon customers.

I would be very disappointed if Amazon simply removed that feature from all books for all customers because of a very few bad apples.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

It's a great policy. It allowed me to return After Dead, Charlaine Harris' ripoff "book" after seeing the ripoff content there was inside, more than $8 for a few pages of nonsense. Seems like I wasn't the only one doing this, either.

http://www.amazon.com/After-Dead-World-Sookie-Stackhouse-ebook/product-reviews/B00BDQ3B4W/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

And I love the Sookie Stackhouse universe, don't get me wrong. But I was glad I could return that "book".


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It's a great policy. It allowed me to return After Dead, Charlaine Harris' ripoff "book" after seeing the ripoff content there was inside, more than $8 for a few pages of nonsense. Seems like I wasn't the only one doing this, either.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/After-Dead-World-Sookie-Stackhouse-ebook/product-reviews/B00BDQ3B4W/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0
> 
> And I love the Sookie Stackhouse universe, don't get me wrong. But I was glad I could return that "book".


OMG seriously? It happened again?! I was really rooting for her...


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

This isn't a phenomenon new to ebooks. People have always bought and returned items they use from a store. Considering that not that many years ago, most of our books would have been lying in the slush pile or in the sock drawer unread, I think it's a great trade off to have a few people here and there read my books for free (albeit unscrupulously) in exchange for the opportunity to have my books on sale at the largest book retailer in the world.

Way I see it, since these readers like my books enough to go through the hassle of buying and refunding each one as they work their way through my series, maybe one day they'll actually become a paying customer, or at the very least give some valuable word of mouth that could lead to more sales. There's always a silver lining...


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

What happened to me surprised me.

I recently removed my last 6 books from Select.  Then the returns on these books jumped from the average of 3% to some weeks 40%.

I can only conclude that Prime members are the cheats?  Read and return  since they can't borrow.

Or is a programmatic thing.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Wansit said:


> OMG seriously? It happened again?! I was really rooting for her...


I was too, I totally support the author's choice of what she does with her characters, but that book was a bunch of paragraphs thrown together, and I felt no real thought was spent into it.

It should have been a freebie on her website. No way I'm paying $8+ bucks on this, and I'm not someone who looks at the price of the books she wants.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It's actually allowed per Amazon's terms of service: the purchaser of an eBook can return the book within 7 days for any reason, no questions asked.


I think it's a great policy.

But can you give an honest - scrap that: just reasonable - explanation why someone would buy the first book *in a series*, return it, and then go on to buy the second book *in that same series*. Presumably they didn't like or didn't read volume one. So, why buy the second? And then return it&#8230; and buy the third installment. And so on with the whole series&#8230;



Ann in Arlington said:


> I would be very disappointed if Amazon simply removed that feature from all books for all customers because of a very few bad apples.


Nobody is suggesting that. Just that obvious abuse should be curbed. It can't be that difficult for Amazon.


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## Kat Lilynette (Oct 12, 2013)

vanstry said:


> I have asked Amazon to do something about this, it is theft pure and simple. I have suggested that after someone has bought and returned 2 or 3 books by the same author that they be blocked from buying anymore of that author's books. Sounds reasonable, right? That at least would cut down on the abuse somewhat. But Amazon really doesn't seem to care and now I'm out royalties on 6 book sales.


The problem with your thinking is that you believe they would pay for your books if given no other alternatives. In this case, that's probably not true. People who do stuff like this have no intention of paying. So when you look at it like that, you're really not losing anything.

It's a pretty safe bet that Amazon watches these numbers like a hawk. Their primary concern is the bottom line and customer satisfaction, and if they think the trend of reader-returners is out of control and doing more harm than allowing easy returns, they'll restrict it faster than you can type, "Ha!"

They go to pretty expensive lengths to see what works best and why. In the end, I trust that their e-commerce savvy helps authors make more money in the long run.


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## gljones (Nov 6, 2012)

I might be the exception on this one.  I really like the policy, it's one of the big reasons I stick with Amazon as my delivery platform.  I want happy readers, and that's it.  If someone doesn't like my book, I absolutely want them to be able to return it with no troubles.  I can't do anything about people abusing it, and I agree with some of the previous comments in here, Amazon will probably catch up to people abusing this constantly, and even if they don't, this doesn't outweigh the wanting "happy readers" aspect of it.  

But anyway, that's how I feel about it.


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Kat Lilynette said:


> The problem with your thinking is that you believe they would pay for your books if given no other alternatives. In this case, that's probably not true. People who do stuff like this have no intention of paying. So when you look at it like that, you're really not losing anything.


Brilliantly said. Frustrating though it may be to have a return number mucking up your unit sales, you haven't lost anything. You may have even gained word-of-mouth. Silver linings, and all of that. Don't fret!


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> There have been many threads on this. It's actually allowed per Amazon's terms of service: the purchaser of an eBook can return the book within 7 days for any reason, no questions asked.
> 
> As a reader, I think it's a great policy: if I get a book that is really bad or poorly edited or formatted, or if I just click by accident or it's not what I expected ----- I can return it. No harm no foul.
> 
> ...


The OP isn't advocating getting rid of the return policy, just tweaking it so that someone can't run through all the books an author has, returning them all. That seems very fair. If you've returned three books by an author, it should be apparent that either the reader doesn't care for that author, in which case, why are they still buying books by him/her? Or that they are reading/returning. I think it's a good solution. They should at least be barred for a period of time, if not forever. By then, they'll have lost interest and try their scheme on another series.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

Kat Lilynette said:


> The problem with your thinking is that you believe they would pay for your books if given no other alternatives. In this case, that's probably not true. People who do stuff like this have no intention of paying. So when you look at it like that, you're really not losing anything.


You are wrong about what I am thinking. I do not think that this will force them to pay for my book. 
What I am thinking is that they will stop getting my books for free.

And yes, I'm losing something. Someone is getting to read my stuff for free, when others are paying for it. If this practice isn't stopped, it will increase. Eventually what will be the point of putting my book up for sale if I don't get paid at all?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I want to know one thing.   Does Amazon tell you that Joe bought this book, then returned it and bought your next book, then returned it?    Unless Amazon names names then you don't know unless of course you only sold 1 book and they returned it or lists times instead of just dates.

If you sell 10 books a day and have 5 returns, you don't know whether they were bought today yesterday or last Thursday.
It could be serial returners or as I have said before and been shot down because people only buy one book at a time, maybe someone liked the sample of your book 1 and thought while I am here I will get all of the series, then get halfway through book 1 and discover they don't like your writing and return them all.

I actually deleted a whole slew of one author from my kindle.   He/she looked good and had a bunch on free so I picked them all up.  50 if I remember right.   Looked at 2 and deleted the entire lot.   For those that buy books, it could be the same principle.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

gljones said:


> I might be the exception on this one. I really like the policy, it's one of the big reasons I stick with Amazon as my delivery platform. I want happy readers, and that's it. If someone doesn't like my book, I absolutely want them to be able to return it with no troubles. I can't do anything about people abusing it, and I agree with some of the previous comments in here, Amazon will probably catch up to people abusing this constantly, and even if they don't, this doesn't outweigh the wanting "happy readers" aspect of it.
> 
> But anyway, that's how I feel about it.


.
I do not have a problem with people who do not like what I wrote returning it. I said that in the original post.
What I have a problem with is people who abuse the system.
If you didn't like the first two books of mine that I wrote, -WHY are you buying a third, fourth, fifth...?-


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

vanstry said:


> I have asked Amazon to do something about this, it is theft pure and simple.


They are already doing something about it, and have been for years. (Google will show you a variety of anecdotes.)

They cancel the accounts of serial returners, and forbid them from opening new accounts. Some have claimed they also cut off access to previously purchased ebooks from the cloud backup, but Amazon denies that claim and says previously purchased ebooks will remain accessible even to a canceled account.

So it's happening, it's just not happening quick enough to stop people from working through your books. Take comfort that these people almost certainly weren't going to pay for your books anyway. They've just found a method of (short term) piracy that they find more convenient that bittorrent and probably haven't a clue about the eventual consequences of their actions.


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## Jack C. Nemo (Jul 5, 2013)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It's a great policy. It allowed me to return After Dead, Charlaine Harris' ripoff "book" after seeing the ripoff content there was inside, more than $8 for a few pages of nonsense. Seems like I wasn't the only one doing this, either.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/After-Dead-World-Sookie-Stackhouse-ebook/product-reviews/B00BDQ3B4W/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0
> 
> And I love the Sookie Stackhouse universe, don't get me wrong. But I was glad I could return that "book".


Wow. That's carpet bombed by activists bad, and she appears to have actually earned the rank. That's one of the lowest starred books I've ever seen.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I want to know one thing. Does Amazon tell you that Joe bought this book, then returned it and bought your next book, then returned it? Unless Amazon names names then you don't know unless of course you only sold 1 book and they returned it or lists times instead of just dates.


I've been working from home for the last several days. I started checking sales numbers daily, when I saw the first return on one of my stories that I have actually never gotten a return on I started to check more often. I checked later and saw a sale, followed by a return on another book. After that I started to check hourly out of curiosity and I'd see a another return. This took place over a period of days, but when you see one of each book returned, after what you know is a reasonable time for a reader to read it, it is blatantly obvious.

I only sell a few books a day on Amazon under my own name. So it really is easy to track this when it happens.

Again, I posted this because it is very annoying when it happens and I wish Amazon would at least make an effort to curb it. Understand that their 'no questions asked' return policy is NOT store wide. It is only for ebooks. Any other part of Amazon and they will ask questions. And they'll keep a percentage of what you paid to cover their costs if they don't like your answer.


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## KeithAllen (Jun 5, 2013)

Jack C. Nemo said:


> Wow. That's carpet bombed by activists bad, and she appears to have actually earned the rank. That's one of the lowest starred books I've ever seen.


Wow I just read through a few of those reviews...ouch those are scathing. It kind of makes me want to find a cheap copy somewhere just so I can analyze what NOT to do...yikes.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Like all digital theft, it's best just to assume the (highly theoretical) lost profits to be part of your ad budget.

Dirty thieves still rave about their favorite books and recommend them.

And yeah, you can totally watch then buy, read and return your books via the dashboard if you refresh often enough, especially if you have longer series.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

vanstry said:


> I've been working from home for the last several days. I started checking sales numbers daily, when I saw the first return on one of my stories that I have actually never gotten a return on I started to check more often. I checked later and saw a sale, followed by a return on another book. After that I started to check hourly out of curiosity and I'd see a another return. This took place over a period of days, but when you see one of each book returned, after what you know is a reasonable time for a reader to read it, it is blatantly obvious.
> 
> I only sell a few books a day on Amazon under my own name. So it really is easy to track this when it happens.
> 
> Again, I posted this because it is very annoying when it happens and I wish Amazon would at least make an effort to curb it. Understand that their 'no questions asked' return policy is NOT store wide. It is only for ebooks. Any other part of Amazon and they will ask questions. And they'll keep a percentage of what you paid to cover their costs if they don't like your answer.


Thank you. I finally got an answer to my question.
Hey it could be worse. You could be selling vacuum cleaners and have a serial returner. I knew someone that would buy a vacuum, clean her house, return vacuum. Repeat every two weeks.


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## KeithAllen (Jun 5, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Thank you. I finally got an answer to my question.
> Hey it could be worse. You could be selling vacuum cleaners and have a serial returner. I knew someone that would buy a vacuum, clean her house, return vacuum. Repeat every two weeks.


I *may* have done this for the first couple of years after we moved into our house to put up my Christmas lights....hey ladders are expensive, don't look at me like that.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

There's a petition on change.org pertaining to Amazon's return policy.

*Amazon Kindle e-Book Return Policy: Stop allowing refunds on e-Books after e-Books have been read*
http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-kindle-e-book-return-policy-stop-allowing-refunds-on-e-books-after-e-books-have-been-read


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

scottmarlowe said:


> There's a petition on change.org pertaining to Amazon's return policy.
> 
> *Amazon Kindle e-Book Return Policy: Stop allowing refunds on e-Books after e-Books have been read*
> http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-kindle-e-book-return-policy-stop-allowing-refunds-on-e-books-after-e-books-have-been-read


Arghh, NO. I saw that before. I haven't spoken up about this but please NO. When has Amazon ever done anything halfway? If they pay attention to that petition people won't be able to return ebooks AT ALL. Instead of hitting that nice return button, letting our rankings sit where it was before and keeping a not-so-nice review away, we'll get deluged. Plus people would be less willing to buy on Amazon if they can't return.

I'm pretty sure Amazon wouldn't repeal the policy, but for the love of god...


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KeithAllen said:


> I *may* have done this for the first couple of years after we moved into our house to put up my Christmas lights....hey ladders are expensive, don't look at me like that.


No, with ladders you go ask neighbor A if they have one. Neighbor A says no but neighbor B has a ladder. They are out of town but let's go get it. I will tell them when they get home you borrowed it.
Neighbor A forgets to tell Neighbor B so when the person that borrows the ladder returns it, they get a funny look and say but A said I could borrow it.


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## Kat Lilynette (Oct 12, 2013)

vanstry said:


> You are wrong about what I am thinking. I do not think that this will force them to pay for my book.
> What I am thinking is that they will stop getting my books for free.


I'm not saying it isn't theft, but even if Amazon was to adopt a no-return policy, the same readers who are abusing Amazon's system would seek out other avenues to get it for free. Namely pirate/torrent sites in which a user purchases the book legitimately and then distributes it. The only difference would be that you don't see the piracy taking place in your KDP dashboard. There's no action that Amazon can take that will keep people from getting your book for free.

The music industry has had to deal with this since shortly after the internet's birth, and they're still no closer to a solution for piracy. I agree with you that it sucks greatly. I'm simply suggesting that agonizing over it may not the best use of your time.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Thank you. I finally got an answer to my question.
> Hey it could be worse. You could be selling vacuum cleaners and have a serial returner. I knew someone that would buy a vacuum, clean her house, return vacuum. Repeat every two weeks.


I know of people who would buy a big screen TV and surround sound two days before the superbowl, and return it the day after. Yes it goes on everywhere, sadly.

I am reminded of Minnie Pearl, the country performer who always would appear wearing a hat with the tag still on it, the joke of course was that it would be returned to the store immediately after the show. The thing that made the joke funny was that she never explained it, someone else had to clue in the people who didn't get it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

scottmarlowe said:


> There's a petition on change.org pertaining to Amazon's return policy.
> 
> *Amazon Kindle e-Book Return Policy: Stop allowing refunds on e-Books after e-Books have been read*
> http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-kindle-e-book-return-policy-stop-allowing-refunds-on-e-books-after-e-books-have-been-read


I saw this, too.

Serial returners are pretty d*mn annoying. I get them, too, and they sting hardest in months where your sales are crap *looks around, whistles*.

But I find that petition petty and immature.

I do think the policy gets abused (quite a lot, actually, because almost all my returns come from serial returners), but stopping returns full stop is not the answer.

As retailer, you have to err on the side of caution and side with your customer. Have you ever worked in customer service? Does wonders if you have naturally low blood pressure.

Some people genuinely return faulty things, but there is a lot of abuse, even at bricks & mortar shop level. You have never met as many rorters in your life as when you work in a place like that. I worked in a school uniform shop for a while. People buy second-hand uniforms (which are non-returnable, clearly marked as such) then come back a few days later wanting to return them for a new item.

Seriously? At a shop that runs as a non-profit service, run by a few volunteer parents?

A retailer can only stop this by tracking individual accounts and fish out repeat-offenders (who will then just go and open another account).

Like pirating, I think we're stuck with it.

Just go and write another book (which they'll buy, rip and return, I know).


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> No, with ladders you go ask neighbor A if they have one. Neighbor A says no but neighbor B has a ladder. They are out of town but let's go get it. I will tell them when they get home you borrowed it.
> Neighbor A forgets to tell Neighbor B so when the person that borrows the ladder returns it, they get a funny look and say but A said I could borrow it.


That won't work here....people lock their ladders up with bike locks to avoid theft.

I knew someone who bought a party dress for the one and only holiday party she went to and then returned it.

I think serial returners, and I know they exist--some have briefly been members here before they were run out of town, are not good people. It's wrong. But there will always be people like me who believe in paying for the stuff they read/watch/listen to. (Never copied video tapes, either, though most of my friends did.)

Amazon tracking who has actually finished a book won't work. All someone would have to do is download the book to a computer and then return the book. And read it later, after DRM has been removed, on a device that doesn't connect to Amazon. You think the people who serial return don't know how to do this, or can't find out? And I often go to the end of a book for various reasons before I've actually read the book. Though I don't return books, so it wouldn't matter for me anyway.

Really, no sales have been lost. These people aren't going to buy the books no matter what. And the honest people will. And call me naive, but I think most people will still pay for what they read.

Betsy


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Cost of doing business.  Best advice...don't even think about it.

It's a lot better than a 1 star review from someone mad they can't return it.  If a few people sneak in and read the thing for free it's still well worth it.

And you have no idea how many fewer sales you might have if there was no return policy.  You might find a quarter of your sales vanish from people not willing to chance it.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

In the last two years, I've only had one return.  This week alone, I've had two. They bought Pet Diaries and it was returned the next day.  Then Pet Chatter sold and also was returned the next day.  

People who buy my books tend to want to read about animal communication, so I think that is why returns have never been a problem for me. I was really surprised that I had two this week as it is so out of the norm. I can only hope that it was someone who was broke and really wanted to read them.  But, probably not.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Large retailers all have policies to deal with serial returners. 

As for me, I love the policy. I think it's very consumer friendly, which is Amazon's focus.  I've made a few fat finger purchases, as well as items bought by my kids when I stupidly left my phone lying about unlocked. All times, it's been easy to get things reversed.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Jay Allan said:


> And you have no idea how many fewer sales you might have if there was no return policy. You might find a quarter of your sales vanish from people not willing to chance it.


Agreed. I don't doubt their "risk-free guarantee" has surely helped some of us find readers who might have never otherwise taken a chance on an indie author.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> But can you give an honest - scrap that: just reasonable - explanation why someone would buy the first book in a series, return it, and then go on to buy the second book in that same series. Presumably they didn't like or didn't read volume one. So, why buy the second? And then return it&#8230; and buy the third installment. And so on with the whole series&#8230;


I'll give an explanation that is both reasonable and honest. Those people want to read the whole series for free, and they use Amazon's return policy to do it.

***

Does anyone know how many more books they sell because of Amazin's liberal return policy? How many people take a chance on a book because they know they can return it if they want? [Jay, missed your comment and concede the territory. Great minds and all that stuff...]

I note comparisons to returning physical goods. I don't think it works. Some portion of the physical good's useful life has been consumed before it is returned. That can be considered a cost to the seller. With eBooks, there is no corresponding useful life.

And we also have to recognize Amazon is the seller. The author is not the seller.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

At least here in Canada, many physical retail stores have policies where items that have been worn or opened or look like they've been used can't be returned because they know people abuse the system. And I HAVE seen customer service refuse to take a return because the item was obviously used. So why doesn't Amazon do the same? Amazon has got to be able to track how far a book has been read (they seem to know everything else!). If a customer reads book after book from cover to cover (or at least everything but back matter) and then returns them, I'd think that should at least warrant some looking into. I mean, good grief, they came after how many authors with that whole review scandal, deleting reviews willy nilly, even sending threatening emails. This is actual THEFT!

And, no, I don't expect the read-and-returners to start buying books instead, but it's got to at least cost Amazon money in credit card processing fees, bandwidth usage, etc. And I'd hate for Amazon to do something like cut our royalty rates because they aren't making as much profit or somesuch.

Honestly, this is probably the third or fourth thread I've seen on the subject in the last couple months. I think it's on the rise. So, yeah, I wish Amazon would do something about it, too, before it gets out of hand anymore than it has.

JMVHO

Rue


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2013)

You do get a boost in the rankings, however.  Never been a problem for me, perhaps because few people can read my fiction in 7 days.  Write longer books - the bane of serial-returners everywhere.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

At least ebooks are 7 days. Just had a return on an audiobook when I haven't sold one in 5 months. Wrote to ACX who said Audible members can return audiobooks up to 1 year.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2013)

Jill James said:


> At least ebooks are 7 days. Just had a return on an audiobook when I haven't sold one in 5 months. Wrote to ACX who said Audible members can return audiobooks up to 1 year.


Hopefully this will give serial-complainers a new perspective, and perhaps a reason to keep quiet.

<Sigh> Not counting on it.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Greg Strandberg said:


> You do get a boost in the rankings, however. Never been a problem for me, perhaps because few people can read my fiction in 7 days. Write longer books - the bane of serial-returners everywhere.


I would imagine that Amazon has something in their algorithm to knock you back down even further if the book is refunded.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> I would imagine that Amazon has something in their algorithm to knock you back down even further if the book is refunded.


Amazon still doesn't call to confide like they do with everyone else, but we can observe the behavior of their rankings and infer some things.

They behave like an exponential moving average. A very simple example:

Let 
NA = new average sales per day
OA = old average sales per day
TS = today's sales
S = speed, greater than or equal to 1

NA = (TS + (S-1)OA)/S

Backing out a sale entails identifying exactly when it happened, then recomputing the entire string of exponential moving averages from day one. It can be done, but it's a lot of work for very little reward. A worse situation prevails if the computation for a single book uses Amazon's total exponential moving average. Then every book has to be completely recomputed for a single return of one book.

(Nore how changing the value if S let's them easily tune the formula to weight the relative value of recent vs older sales.)

But, like I said, Amazon just doesn't call. So they might be using something completely different. Perhaps they have an EMA of returns and subtract it from the EMA of sales.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

vanstry said:


> I am referring of course to the scammers who buy your book, read it, and then return it.
> And then do the next one in your catalog.
> And then the next.
> And the next.
> ...


The customer is always right.  I don't understand how you know these people are reading your book and asking for a refund and then go and order and read your other books.

Where do you get this information from? How do you know this? Could they have read 20 pages and felt the book just wasn't for them?

If people are serial refund-addicts they are not good customers for Amazon. If they do it often I'm sure they will be flagged. Now I would guess that some lonely souls with nothing else to do could read a good size book in a few days and return it. But, if they continue doing it Amazon knows.

I think the problem is rather small. More likely they clicked on buy when they meant to sample or they partially read it and didn't like it, for whatever reason. The reader is always right.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You know Amazon could take a different tack.   Let's say that an author has a high return rate like 30%.   The author complains several times to Amazon that people are buying my books, reading then returning them.   Amazon looks and assigns Carlos to please check out this author's books.   Author could find himself on the banned list.  
Just a thought because you are one little vendor in a sea of vendors.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> You know Amazon could take a different tack. Let's say that an author has a high return rate like 30%. The author complains several times to Amazon that people are buying my books, reading then returning them. Amazon looks and assigns Carlos to please check out this author's books. Author could find himself on the banned list.
> Just a thought because you are one little vendor in a sea of vendors.


Now, that's good. Really good.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

scottmarlowe said:


> There's a petition on change.org pertaining to Amazon's return policy.
> 
> *Amazon Kindle e-Book Return Policy: Stop allowing refunds on e-Books after e-Books have been read*
> http://www.change.org/petitions/amazon-kindle-e-book-return-policy-stop-allowing-refunds-on-e-books-after-e-books-have-been-read


Amazon will never bow to a petition like this. Besides, it is immature and ignorant, just as Betsy said.

Returners either hated your book, or they never intended to pay for it in the first place. There is no 'theft' going on here. No one 'stole' anything from you. You didn't lose anything, and in fact you gained rank because Amazon counts the sale and does not penalize for the return.

My advice is to get some thicker skin because this isn't even close to the worst things you'll face as an author. If this gets you so miserable that you have to run to the forum and complain (when there's already 100+ threads about this, which you should read, because all of them say the same as the majority of posts in this thread...which is 'deal with it, it's a good return policy and we don't want it changed'), I shudder to think what it will be like when a reviewer harasses you or leaves you a 1-star review on every book you've ever written, etc.

Amazon's return policy is the reason why I do so much of my shopping with them. It's the reason a lot of us do business with them. As an author, I wholly support this return policy because I never want a reader to feel like he's been stuck with a terrible book I wrote. And because I know that while there will be a few that do the serial returns, 99.99% of everyone else does not engage in this behavior.

Not worth getting panties/boxers twisted up into a chafing bunch about.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> It's a great policy. It allowed me to return After Dead, Charlaine Harris' ripoff "book" after seeing the ripoff content there was inside, more than $8 for a few pages of nonsense. Seems like I wasn't the only one doing this, either.


Oh man. I'm not a reader of that series but I just had to see those reviews to see what the fuss was about. Hilarious! What kind of idiot trad-publisher puts out a book they know has jack nothing for content? Did the editor call in dead?

You have a point that this deserved the return. There's a time and place for it. Yes, the policy can be abused, but I expect Amazon already deals with the serial abusers.


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## kwest (Mar 16, 2013)

I can understand 1 day, but 7? Usually, it only takes a few seconds to figure out if you downloaded the wrong book. It's annoying, but at the same time, what are you going to do? Luckily, the majority of readers are awesome and will pay gladly, which is something to be thankful for.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

kwest said:


> I can understand 1 day, but 7? Usually, it only takes a few seconds to figure out if you downloaded the wrong book. It's annoying, but at the same time, what are you going to do? Luckily, the majority of readers are awesome and will pay gladly, which is something to be thankful for.


If you are on a fire or a tablet, then it is hard to check your orders. Or if you only have internet for a little while because you are on vacation. So yes I appreciate the 7 days. What are we supposed to do, buy with one click, then go to the big site and click on my orders every time we buy a book. 
And not if the author has chosen that moment to go off sale between the buy click and the thank you click. That happened to me last week. 
So are you saying if a book is crap I should know within seconds? What if it doesn't turn to crap until 2/3rd through and the author threw bad things at you that were not mentioned in the blurb? Should I keep that because someone thinks that I should only have seconds to return it? Or kids accidently buying? 
I think it should be 30 days just like all other books.
No, it should be 30 days like the rest of retail.


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## jdcore (Jul 2, 2013)

Is it possible that the people who are buying and returning books in series have found a way to clone the files, and are actually pirating the content? If so, then the OP's suggestion that a person be blocked from buying an author's books after returning more than one makes sense.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

jdcore said:


> Is it possible that the people who are buying and returning books in series have found a way to clone the files, and are actually pirating the content? If so, then the OP's suggestion that a person be blocked from buying an author's books after returning more than one makes sense.


There is no way to tell if this goes on or not, unless the customer openly admits it. As a reader, the first thing I do when I buy a book for my Kindle is transfer the file to my backup system. Just in case. But I can't remember ever returning a book/ebook to Amazon other than a physical book that was missing 30 pages from the middle of it. I've eaten a lot of bad books that cost me a buck or three...it's part of the 'you pays your money and you takes your chances' thing for me.


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## ktashbury (Oct 10, 2013)

I know at least one person who sticks with Amazon as a reader because of their lenient return policy. He ordered a copy of The Hobbit from another vendor, which was advertised as having "illustrations." Those didn't work, however, yet the retailer refused to refund his money. It was a simple choice. 

The serial returns are tiresome but the serial purchasers are nice.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

jdcore said:


> Is it possible that the people who are buying and returning books in series have found a way to clone the files, and are actually pirating the content? If so, then the OP's suggestion that a person be blocked from buying an author's books after returning more than one makes sense.


Sure it's possible. It's also possible that's what buyers who do not return are doing.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Thank you. I finally got an answer to my question.
> Hey it could be worse. You could be selling vacuum cleaners and have a serial returner. I knew someone that would buy a vacuum, clean her house, return vacuum. Repeat every two weeks.


Hmmm...I would only need to do that about once a month or so.  Actually, we have a cordless Dyson. The biggest waste of money ever! I usually end up using my broom and sweeping the carpet. The Dyson only works for about five minutes if I'm lucky.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

AngryGames said:


> Amazon will never bow to a petition like this. Besides, it is immature and ignorant, just as Betsy said.
> 
> Returners either hated your book, or they never intended to pay for it in the first place. There is no 'theft' going on here. No one 'stole' anything from you. You didn't lose anything, and in fact you gained rank because Amazon counts the sale and does not penalize for the return.
> 
> ...


Agree with what you wrote, but on this: "you gained rank because Amazon counts the sale and does not penalize for the return." How do you know they don't penalize? I realize unless you're an Amazon engineer we're all just guessing, but did you read this somewhere else? Or you crunched the data yourself? Just curious, I know a lot of folks here study Amazon data.

In other worlds merchants with a lot of chargebacks could get their account booted. So that's why I believe Amazon does watch the refund rate, but that is 100% guess on my part. I would imagine to trigger Amazon you would have to have a freakishly high refund rate. Again, just guessing.


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## Cleo (Jan 11, 2013)

ktashbury said:


> The serial returns are tiresome but the serial purchasers are nice.


x1,000,000


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Alan Petersen said:


> Agree with what you wrote, but on this: "you gained rank because Amazon counts the sale and does not penalize for the return." How do you know they don't penalize? I realize unless you're an Amazon engineer we're all just guessing, but did you read this somewhere else? Or you crunched the data yourself? Just curious, I know a lot of folks here study Amazon data.
> 
> In other worlds merchants with a lot of chargebacks could get their account booted. So that's why I believe Amazon does watch the refund rate, but that is 100% guess on my part. I would imagine to trigger Amazon you would have to have a freakishly high refund rate. Again, just guessing.


Oops, I will clarify, and I will of course say I am talking out of my backside because I don't work for them. My evidence is anecdotal I guess.

Two of my books were sitting in the 1,000,000 range and both had copies purchased. This cranked them both up into the 100,000 range, but within 24 hours, both had been returned (both were short stories, I just shrug because I don't really care about returns anymore than I care about piracy). Both kept their ranking, and I watched both rankings decay over the span of about ten days.

So I might be talking out of my rear about everyone else, to be honest. For me, the ranking stuck after the returns on both books.


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## chrissponias (Sep 22, 2013)

Unfortunately, you have to bear sneaky people who take advantage of an alternative. You cannot make them stop doing it, or delete their memory when they return an ebook.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Back in college, Tower Records let you return LPs, no questions asked. Some kids in the dorm would buy an album, tape it, return it for another album, tape that one, then repeat the process until graduation. Decades later, I wondered how Borders Books could afford to encourage "patrons" to treat their stores like libraries. It got to be a hassle to actually buy a book there because you had to step over all of the freeloading urchins sprawled out in the aisles. Those two chains must have had their reasons.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

AngryGames said:


> Amazon will never bow to a petition like this. Besides, it is immature and ignorant, *just as Betsy said*.


Not me. Not only did I not comment on the petition, but those are not words I would use. *goes back to check if I posted while I was binge-drinking earlier in the day....*

Betsy


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> *goes back to check if I posted while I was binge-drinking earlier in the day&#8230;.*


"Binge-drinking" is no longer correct. As the Canadians here will tell you, the proper terminology is now "Drunken stupor."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike McIntyre said:


> "Binge-drinking" is no longer correct. As the Canadians here will tell you, the proper terminology is now "Drunken stupor."


I have never been to Toronto. I promise.


Betsy


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## Vivienne Mathews (May 7, 2013)

Mike McIntyre said:


> "Binge-drinking" is no longer correct. As the Canadians here will tell you, the proper terminology is now "Drunken stupor."


Or, as it's called in the boonies... "evening."


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

Amazon does ban people who are serial returners. No warnings, no second chances, just bans them.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

I've had these serial returners pop up since India came on line with nearly every book being returned a day later. I don't actually mind that. I mind that they copied and pirated the books!

However as far as the free return policy in seven days goes, I support it. As a policy it encourages readers to shop Amazon and to take a chance on my books. And if they take a chance and decide they don't like my books, I'm happy that they return them. God knows it's better than them getting angry and doing a drive by review.

But I have noticed numbers of returns increasing. Currently they're up near 5% which seems way too high. Not sure what that's about since the books (mostly) are the same ones they've always been.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but returning ebooks to Amazon is a bit different from returning paper books to B&N. The B&N sales person might look at the book and think, "Hmm ... spine's not cracked or anything, but this looks like it's been read." But they don't *know* you've read it. It could've been read in the store before you bought it, or maybe you just fanned through the whole thing.

But Amazon knows exactly how far you got into a book. They know which pages you viewed. They know how much total time you spent looking at the book. They probably know how much time you spent looking at each page. So if you're reading and returning, they *know*.

I certainly want people to be able to return ebooks to Amazon if they start reading and decide those books are not for them, and the occasional read-and-return shouldn't be anything to get upset about. People should be allowed to read a book through and return it if they think it's awful. But it would be relatively easy for Amazon to crack down on people to read and return habitually. They could just put a limit of three read-and-returns per year, or something.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Just to point out that Amazon's omniscience isn't infallible.  I could download a book to my Kindle, turn off the wireless, read the book and then when I return the book via Manage Your Kindle (which is the only place that I know of to return a book, you don't do it from the device), there would still be no record of whether I've read the whole book or not.

Or I could download to my PC and copy over to a Kindle that never connects with Amazon.  

Also, Amazon may not want to make a big deal about how much data tracking they do with customers. 

Just sayin'.

Betsy


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## Anne Berkeley (Jul 12, 2013)

It is a really sucky situation. I think you have to go into it with a grain of salt and assume that the entire population isn't as moral as you. Then you're not bowled over when you get ripped off.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

Amazon simply needs to put some reasonable limits in place. It would be easy for Amazon to figure out the profile of a serial returner and stop them.

There isn't really a similar concept in the rest of retail, btw. If you return a book to a Barnes & Noble, you have to give them the frickin' book. They don't give you your money back and still let you keep it.

To me this is loophole piracy. (_The Loophole Pirates of the Caribbean: Summer 2014_).

In the end, it will become a problem for Amazon when it actually starts eating away at margins. Until then, it's an annoyance and a cost of doing business with them.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Just to point out that Amazon's omniscience isn't infallible. I could download a book to my Kindle, turn off the wireless, read the book and then when I return the book via Manage Your Kindle (which is the only place that I know of to return a book, you don't do it from the device), there would still be no record of whether I've read the whole book or not.
> 
> Or I could download to my PC and copy over to a Kindle that never connects with Amazon.
> 
> ...


Ahh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe serial returners are doing that sort of thing, and that's why Amazon's punishments seem so randomly meted out.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

seela said:


> Amazon simply needs to put some reasonable limits in place. It would be easy for Amazon to figure out the profile of a serial returner and stop them.
> 
> There isn't really a similar concept in the rest of retail, btw. If you return a book to a Barnes & Noble, you have to give them the frickin' book. They don't give you your money back and still let you keep it.
> 
> ...


It won't eat their margins because they are active about keeping serial returners to a minimum. They are a huge business working on razor thin margins, so every dime is important to them, and when a return happens, that costs them money (remember, each financial transaction that happens with a credit card or debit card costs Amazon money, even if it is only a few cents, that adds up after millions of purchases per day).

It might be loophole piracy, but it isn't an epidemic. It isn't a plague. It isn't the Spanish Influenza of the internet. It happens in real life. People buy a new BBQ grill for the 4th of July, use it, then return it claiming it didn't work right, didn't cook right, etc. Insert any product in that sentence, it happens.



> Not me. Not only did I not comment on the petition, but those are not words I would use. *goes back to check if I posted while I was binge-drinking earlier in the day....*
> 
> Betsy


I sincerely apologize. I have no idea why I thought you posted that.

The scary part is that I don't drink. Senility at 40 is a frightening prospect.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

caethesfaron said:


> Amazon does ban people who are serial returners. No warnings, no second chances, just bans them.


And doesn't _tell_ anyone else. So while it may feel like the practice is rampant, I think they are acting when they find it, but more 'baddies' pop up. If there are a hundred of these people they're probably NOT the same hundred they were 2 years ago! 



Becca Mills said:


> Forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but returning ebooks to Amazon is a bit different from returning paper books to B&N. The B&N sales person might look at the book and think, "Hmm ... spine's not cracked or anything, but this looks like it's been read." But they don't *know* you've read it. It could've been read in the store before you bought it, or maybe you just fanned through the whole thing.
> 
> But Amazon knows exactly how far you got into a book. They know which pages you viewed. They know how much total time you spent looking at the book. They probably know how much time you spent looking at each page. So if you're reading and returning, they *know*.
> 
> I certainly want people to be able to return ebooks to Amazon if they start reading and decide those books are not for them, and the occasional read-and-return shouldn't be anything to get upset about. People should be allowed to read a book through and return it if they think it's awful. But it would be relatively easy for Amazon to crack down on people to read and return habitually. They could just put a limit of three read-and-returns per year, or something.


All they really know is, based on if you have annotations backed up, what page is the furthest page you've accessed. No way of knowing if you read the whole thing, or read 4 pages decided it was really bad, and went to the end to share on FB that it was horrible and only worth one star. I've done that several times.

They DO NOT know, really, if they're reading to the end and returning it, or breaking DRM and making a copy and returning the original -- and then doing what they want with the illegitimate copy. Or, as Betsy noted, if the Kindle doesn't connect to wireless for a month, they're clueless about what happens during that time!



seela said:


> Amazon simply needs to put some reasonable limits in place. It would be easy for Amazon to figure out the profile of a serial returner and stop them.


Again, there is the assumption here that they don't already know and have processes in place. I think they do. But there's no reason in the WORLD for them to tell anyone what they are!



Becca Mills said:


> Ahh, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe serial returners are doing that sort of thing, and that's why Amazon's punishments seem so randomly meted out.


How do you know they're random? There might be a very specific method. But we are NOT privy to it. The only way anyone outside Amazon is going to know if a person is banned for the practice, is if they, themselves, share it with the world. It's not in Amazon's interest to advertise the fact, really. Though I'm certain that people do get notices if their purchasing habits are suspicious.

It also occurs to me that Amazon is a private company. And if they decide they don't want to do business with you, they don't have to. They have, for my money, the best customer service around, and it's not surprising some people will decide to take advantage of that. They're scum, and I don't blame the company for refusing to serve them further. It's no different to me telling a client I've caught in a lie that I can't do their tax return. Or a bartender refusing to serve a guy who's already had more than he needs and is becoming belligerent.

And, remember, all the 'serial returner' stories here are anecdotal ONLY. There's no PROOF that we can see. Some people might feel pretty sure, but, in fact, the writer whose books got returned doesn't REALLY know if it's the same person who purchased and returned all the books, or if it's different people. They may think it is. It may look suspicious, but it may be a coincidence. That said, if it appears suspicious, I'm sure there are mechanisms via the vendor end, of bringing it to the attention of Amazon for them to look into. And that's what people should do. . . . . it feels good to grouse here, but it doesn't really _fix_ anything.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm all for people being given the opportunity to try out my writing with the guarantee that if they don't like it they can return it. And once they _do_ return it, I would rather they didn't buy every other book in my series and be allowed to return those too. It's only fair. I price reasonably enough, and even have a free book out, so there's no excuse.

This is what the OP is getting at, I believe. No one here is advocating the removal of the policy. To put my money where my mouth is, I would 100% enter into an agreement that barred people buying more of my works once they'd returned one of my titles. As the number is still so small, I'm not that desperate for the effect their purchases have on my sales rank.

In any case, my theory is that, due to Amazon's sanctioning of returns, and the ease with which one can obtain them, some otherwise honest buyers are being tempted into this practice of serial returning. It isn't like downloading a torrent; it doesn't run any of the risks associated with that. And it isn't like reading and returning a physical book. It sits in a grey area all on its own. And this, I believe, is why the number of serial returners will likely rise.

But with all this being said, I wouldn't sit here dwelling on the matter. The majority of your readers won't read and return your books. For them, you will just have to grin and bear.


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

Jill James said:


> At least ebooks are 7 days. Just had a return on an audiobook when I haven't sold one in 5 months. Wrote to ACX who said Audible members can return audiobooks up to 1 year.


That's a long time! Mind you, I had two returns this month on ebooks which have had no registered sales since July 2013 (one title) and March 2013 (the other). I have asked Support how that happened, and they said these must have been accidental purchases, since no complaints were registered.

I've got no problem with Amazon's return policy (I've returned ebooks myself because I pressed 'BUY' by accident on my Kindle). But in that case I'd expect a return to show up immediately following a sale, cancelling it to zero. However, I am wondering how someone accidentally purchased an ebook several months ago, and then only returned it this month... how does that happen, if there is meant to be a 7-day return policy in force? Anyone know?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Lady Vine said:


> I'm all for people being given the opportunity to try out my writing with the guarantee that if they don't like it they can return it. And once they _do_ return it, I would rather they didn't buy every other book in my series and be allowed to return those too. It's only fair. I price reasonably enough, and even have a free book out, so there's no excuse.
> 
> This is what the OP is getting at, I believe. No one here is advocating the removal of the policy. To put my money where my mouth is, I would 100% enter into an agreement that barred people buying more of my works once they'd returned one of my titles. As the number is still so small, I'm not that desperate for the effect their purchases have on my sales rank.
> 
> ...


I think the vast majority of amazon customers do NOT practice this. Heck, I think most of them may not realize it's a policy. I've told more than one kindle owner about it -- folks not members here -- who were commenting they'd purchased something for their device and then realized it was the same title but the wrong book.

We talk about it here as though it's a BIG PROBLEM. But I bet it's a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of amazon customers/purchases.

I also don't think 'honest buyers' are doing it. Honest people would know that it's not really right. Anyone doing it is, by definition, NOT honest. And it IS, in fact, JUST LIKE reading and returning a book. Except easier to do, and you don't have to be as careful so that it still looks new when you take it back.  Anyone who would do the one, would do the other.



Katherine Roberts said:


> That's a long time! Mind you, I had two returns this month on ebooks which have had no registered sales since July 2013 (one title) and March 2013 (the other). I have asked Support how that happened, and they said these must have been accidental purchases, since no complaints were registered.
> 
> I've got no problem with Amazon's return policy (I've returned ebooks myself because I pressed 'BUY' by accident on my Kindle). But in that case I'd expect a return to show up immediately following a sale, cancelling it to zero. However, I am wondering how someone accidentally purchased an ebook several months ago, and then only returned it this month... how does that happen, if there is meant to be a 7-day return policy in force? Anyone know?


There was one time I'd bought a book and didn't get to it as quickly as expected. When I did, I saw that it had a font that was very very tiny and pale. Like the original manuscript was in red and it had just been scanned. Un readable, really, without bumping the size way up. I contacted them even though it was past 7 days and they let me return it.

Another time, a similar thing happened and when I started reading the book it became clear that the only bit that was even proof read, let alone edited or properly formatted, was the first 10% or so. It became increasingly poorly written -- in terms of spelling, grammar, and just plain not making sense. Again, well past the 7 days, but I contacted them and told them the problem. I got my money back.

That said: I'm actually not certain either of those cases counted as a 'return'. I was told they'd give me a credit of my purchase price and I was free to delete them from my archive/cloud. I don't recall that they went away automatically -- I couldn't do the 'return' through MYK, because it was more than 7 days. Actually, I think both were before that option was even there. Nowadays, the one with the problem formatting would probably get fixed automatically assuming the publisher did a corrective update. And that would be o.k. But the badly written one, I didn't want at all.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Katherine Roberts said:


> That's a long time! Mind you, I had two returns this month on ebooks which have had no registered sales since July 2013 (one title) and March 2013 (the other). I have asked Support how that happened, and they said these must have been accidental purchases, since no complaints were registered.
> 
> I've got no problem with Amazon's return policy (I've returned ebooks myself because I pressed 'BUY' by accident on my Kindle). But in that case I'd expect a return to show up immediately following a sale, cancelling it to zero. However, I am wondering how someone accidentally purchased an ebook several months ago, and then only returned it this month... how does that happen, if there is meant to be a 7-day return policy in force? Anyone know?


It sounds like someone may have purchased them as gifts for someone who then opened them and decided to return them. I had just the opposite scenario last year when 2 sales came through on a book but at a higher price than currently listed (it was on sale for the holidays at the time) and was informed by Amazon KDP that they were gift sales made 2 months before but just opened by the recipient, hence the higher price. Gift books are not counted as a sale until they are opened because the recipient has the option to either accept the gift or exchange it for something else in the Amazon store.

It is possible that some refunds are the result of a gift purchase made for someone who decided the book wasn't to their taste but tried it anyway and then returned it. I can see where that can happen if parents buy a book series for a teen hoping they will like it but after trying a little of each book they decide it isn't really what they want and so they send them back book by book. While it's true that there are probably some people ripping off the system, I also believe that some refunds are made by people who buy a book thinking it's one with a similar title and decide not to keep the one they purchased by mistake, or people who hit the Buy button accidentally.


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## Dan Fiorella (Oct 14, 2012)

I guess the trick is to write something that takes longer than 7 days to read.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

For those who think an author loses from a return, how do you compute the dollar value of the loss?


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## Rhynedahll (Oct 23, 2010)

This happens to me about once every couple of months.

I have an ongoing fantasy series that has five books thus far.  I check my sales frequently and always watch for returns, which are only a handful or less a month.  I'll see the first book get returned and don't think anything of it. Then, however, the next day, there is a return on the second book. Then the third book, the fourth, and the fifth in perfect sequence.

While I actually don't want readers that are so dishonest as to do this, it does aggravate me a good bit.

I don't consider it lost money though, since this buffoon would not likely have read my books if he had to pay for them.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

There's this argument out there and on this thread that pirates wouldn't buy the work anyways so who cares?  Well, I have some anecdotal evidence that isn't actually true.

The mangaka for the manga series Black Butler was approached by fans that had pirated versions of the manga (it could have been an anime, its been a while) who told her in glowing terms what fans they were even as it was clear that they had pirated the work.  She wrote an impassioned response to this fact saying that they couldn't be true fans if they pirated b/c for every pirated book her income was reduced.

The responses to her were the illuminating part.  Essentially, there were two camps of piraters:

(1) The never buy anything crowd (buying was for “suckers” as one put it); and

(2) The I can't buy everything I want so I pirate some and pay for others crowd.

Guess which was the larger group?  The second.  

Essentially, the second’s "argument" was that they only had X dollars to spend and that amount wasn't enough for them to get Black Butler AND the other stuff they liked.  So they would pirate some of the stuff and maybe, if they really liked it and budget allowed, they would buy that stuff outright later.  So it wasn’t that they would NEVER buy the stuff, it was that they didn’t have the money for it at that moment and they COULD take it for free.  If it wasn’t easy to get the material for free, they were FORCED to buy it.  So they would pony up the money then. 

Amazon has essentially made it EASY for them to get everything they want. If they buy some and return others, I’m sure that they won’t get bonged by Amazon.  They ARE buying. They aren’t simply returning everything. So, arguably, we ARE losing sales because there are a lot of these people in the second group who would pay for our stuff if they had to, but Amazon makes it simple for them not to.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Couldn't these serial-returners simply buy a book and download to Kindle, turn the wireless off so the book remains, and then return the book online? As long as the wireless remains off, it would give them unlimited time to read the book.

I've felt a bit like a serial-returner lately. I've had to return quite a few books that will not download to my Kindle (even after sending to my Kindle via the 'Manage my Kindle' page). The only thing that works is returning and re-purchasing the book. At least I have proof that I immediately repurchase the books I return. I'm glad for Amazon's return policy. After asking their permission, I returned a set of Bunnicula books I'd bought for my daughter and re-purchased them under the brand new account I'd just made for her.

It seems doing away with the lenient return policy will only make the serial-returners turn to piracy. I wonder if it would help if the window to return books was reduced to one or two days, with the customers understanding that they have limited time to return accidental purchases or undesirable books.


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## Bone Bard (Aug 1, 2012)

I might be the only one, but I hate the refund policy for books.

If you're too lazy to read the sample and then buy the book and don't like it, shame on you. Suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15 it cost you. And let's stop bending over to placate whiny baby readers and other cry baby customers.

If it doesn't download properly get Amazon to fix it or choose another retailer. The lengths people go to to bitch about small amount of dollars astonishes me sometimes.

Btw, you can use Calibre to strip out DRM and save copies of your books to read on other devices so that if Amazon strips out your Kindle account you've still got your books. Plain and simple, some of these assholes are just stealing from writers and possibly keeping the books too.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Bone Bard said:


> I might be the only one, but I hate the refund policy for books.
> 
> If you're too lazy to read the sample and then buy the book and don't like it, shame on you. Suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15 it cost you. And let's stop bending over to placate whiny baby readers and other cry baby customers.
> 
> If it doesn't download properly get Amazon to fix it or choose another retailer. The lengths people go to to b*tch about small amount of dollars astonishes me sometimes.


By the same token, if an author is too lazy to have his book properly edited and formatted, then he shouldn't publish his book. Aside from serial-returners, the main reasons why customers return ebooks is because major mistakes make the books difficult to read. A reader should not have to "suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15" it cost them if a book is poorly executed.


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## Rhynedahll (Oct 23, 2010)

Mandy said:


> By the same token, if an author is too lazy to have his book properly edited and formatted, then he shouldn't publish his book. Aside from serial-returners, the main reasons why customers return ebooks is because major mistakes make the books difficult to read. A reader should not have to "suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15" it cost them if a book is poorly executed.


I must point out that the simple act of reading the sample would reveal the the pervasive errors that you describe.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bone Bard said:


> I might be the only one, but I hate the refund policy for books.
> 
> If you're too lazy to read the sample and then buy the book and don't like it, shame on you. Suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15 it cost you. And let's stop bending over to placate whiny baby readers and other cry baby customers.
> 
> ...


You seem to have a pretty poor impression of readers. You've just described me as lazy and whiny and a cry baby.  I also happen to think it's not an accurate impression. 

Again, there are a LOT of good reasons why a person might want to legitimately return a book:

You (a customer) realize that, past the end of the sample, the 'professionalism' has changed. . . . I have had that happen. The sample looked fine, the story was acceptable, and I got to around 15% and it was like the author forgot how to spell or form sentences. And had lost all clue of what constitutes a paragraph, let alone a plot. Back it went.

You (a customer) want a book called "Dust". There are a whole bunch of them by different authors and even in different genres. You _accidentally_ click the wrong one and open it and realize you've done so. Sure is nice that yo can return it and not be out the money on a book you have no interest in.

You (a customer) are showing a friend your kindle and in the course of showing features, one or the other of you accidentally buys a book neither of you wants. Again, nice that you can return it without penalty. Or, similarly, someone is playing with the device -- perhaps someone quite young in your household -- and doesn't realize that they're actually spending money when they push the pretty 'buy' button.  Again, nice that you can return those books without penalty.

You (a customer) bought a book and it was supposed to download and it didn't. You've restarted all your devices, toggled wifi on and off, and you can't get it to show up on ANY of your devices. The only way to fix the problem is to return the book and then buy it again.

I agree that samples will usually give you a decent clue as to formatting and style. But some people don't like to read samples unless they KNOW they're going to be finishing the full book. Because if they do, it sticks in the brain, and if they come across the book later, they may not be able to remember if they just read the sample or read the whole book. And reading the sample again doesn't answer the question.  This is me.  Accordingly, I usually wishlist a book if I don't buy it right away. But if the blurb and reviews look good enough I may buy it without sampling. And when I open it, I may discover that it was completely misrepresented. You can bet that if it's within the 7 day period, I'm returning it, even if it was only a buck. (This actually happened to me once -- it was a 'tips and tricks' book on some topic and I DID sample to see what level the 'tips' were at. . .the first 10% looked pretty good. So I bought it. Do you know that the other 90% was basically no new information?  Just the same content as the first 10% presented in alternative ways. Yep. I returned it.)

I'll also note that there are a number of folks who have a limited book budget. If, even after all their vetting, they realize a book is NOT what they thought or expected, I can't blame them at all for returning it. That's $5 or $6 or $7 they may have to spend on something else they will enjoy. Which might not be a "small amount of dollars" to them. 

PLEASE UNDERSTAND -- what I'm talking about here is appropriate use of a policy that I applaud Amazon for having -- even though I, myself, have only used it a handful of times over the last 5 and a half years. It is very consumer friendly and has probably made them a lot of happy and loyal customers. As one of those customers, I think it's great. I'd wager that we honest folks have only used the feature a few times and have adjusted our vetting after each time we needed to use it.

Sadly, it is, as is often the case, exploited by the dishonest. But the dishonest will be dishonest regardless and, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't hurt anyone, really, to make things a bit easier for honest people. I'll even go so far as to say I bet Amazon anticipated the issue when they were first developing the whole kindle thing 7 or 8 years ago. But they -- the dishonest -- are, fortunately, a very small minority. AND, as I've said before, I'm dead sure Amazon is aware of these people and shuts them down -- not that they necessarily broadcast the fact. I REALLY hope the problem never becomes so bad that they are forced to reconsider the overall policy! It is one of the aspects of Kindle/kindle books that make it a superior device and a superior store.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> You seem to have a pretty poor impression of readers. You've just described me as lazy and whiny and a cry baby.  I also happen to think it's not an accurate impression.
> 
> Again, there are a LOT of good reasons why a person might want to legitimately return a book:
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.

What is "small dollars" or a cup of coffee to one person may be someone else's grocery money for the week. I really love when people say X dollars is not that much. It may not be much to them but to someone else, it may be their entire entertainment budget. And just a side note which may or may not be important: if I see someone commenting that $5 is not much money, I figure they don't need my $5 and I will buy someone else's widget/book/etc. My book budget is limited so I have to make those small purchases count.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> What is "small dollars" or a cup of coffee to one person may be someone else's grocery money for the week.


Wouldn't that be all the more reason to NOT steal that money from the poor, starving writer?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Wouldn't that be all the more reason to NOT steal that money from the poor, starving writer?


I would agree with you completely on this Andrew. The thing is if the author says $5 is nothing then I am going to assume he/she is not poor nor starving and does not need my lowly little $5 or whatever he/she gets in royalties.
Now if you are poor and starving, my kitchen is always open. I may not have much but I do always have food.


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## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Rhynedahll said:


> I must point out that the simple act of reading the sample would reveal the the pervasive errors that you describe.


Yes, there are samples, but I'm under no obligation to use them before purchasing a book. I don't care for samples because I'm a little ocd about beginning a book and not finishing it. I also shouldn't have to read a sample to see if the author has edited their book. It's the author's responsibility to edit his work, not mine to proof-read before purchasing. I do, however, always read the bad reviews of any book I'm considering because they will be quick to point out any editing or format issues. Because of this, I've never returned a book over poor quality...only downloading issues, and even then I immediately repurchase.


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## Jill James (May 8, 2011)

After 9 years in RWA and countless contests I've either entered or judged, I know for a fact that a writer's first 3 chapters can be sterling. The rest? Not so much. I do not read samples, like Mandy said. I am totally OCD and I can't not know how a story ends. In the same way, I don't read excerpts at the end of a book either. If I liked your book I'm going to check out your Amazon author page and see what else you have.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> I would agree with you completely on this Andrew. The thing is if the author says $5 is nothing then I am going to assume he/she is not poor nor starving and does not need my lowly little $5 or whatever he/she gets in royalties.


 Yep. The argument cuts both ways.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Mandy said:


> Yes, there are samples, but I'm under no obligation to use them before purchasing a book. I don't care for samples because I'm a little ocd about beginning a book and not finishing it. I also shouldn't have to read a sample to see if the author has edited their book. It's the author's responsibility to edit his work, not mine to proof-read before purchasing. I do, however, always read the bad reviews of any book I'm considering because they will be quick to point out any editing or format issues. Because of this, I've never returned a book over poor quality...only downloading issues, and even then I immediately repurchase.


Yes this, I very rarely read samples. I don't like reading books in chunks. I start at the beginning and read through. Would make me twitchy to have all these particles of stories floating around in my head. Yikes. 
I also don't like excerpts from any part of the book. from A to Z for me. Same goes for series, even barely connected ones. OCD here too. 

Amazon has the 7 day return policy and if I need it I will use it. Period. There is no stealing involved. At least not with me and the majority of folks that return. It is a very very small percentage of people that abuse a system. Any system. 
Authors don't want readers to paint them all with the same brush. There are a few that "cheat" the system too. So maybe it needs to go both ways.

There is a reason I don't buy books from itunes, kobo and B&N. There is a reason I got a kindle in the first place. Its the fact that Amazon puts its customers first. And the 7 day return is obviously working for them or they wouldn't still have it. They are still a business after all.

And $5 is most definitely a lot of money to me. And I am sure at some point someone is going to bring up the cup of coffee analogy, it always pops up sooner or later. A book is a book and a coffee is a coffee. They are not interchangeable things. Just like a car and dental implants are not the same thing. Not that I pay $5 for a cup of coffee. But it wouldn't matter if I did. If there was something floating in that coffee that doesn't belong there or it tastes off, I would probably ask for my money back too.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> would agree with you completely on this Andrew. The thing is if the author says $5 is nothing then I am going to assume he/she is not poor nor starving and does not need my lowly little $5 or whatever he/she gets in royalties.


I haven't seen any writer's say it's "nothing" (although that doesn't mean some haven't. I don't see every post on the internet.) What I HAVE seen, and say myselfl, is that $5 for a book that gives hours of entertainment is a *bargain *compared to $8 to $10 for a 2 hour movie or a $5 fancy cup of coffee or one drink.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Bone Bard said:


> I might be the only one, but I hate the refund policy for books.
> 
> If you're too lazy to read the sample and then buy the book and don't like it, shame on you. Suck it up and swallow the $1 to $15 it cost you. And let's stop bending over to placate whiny baby readers and other cry baby customers.
> 
> ...


I never read samples or reviews before buying fiction. I have zero obligation to do so. I purchase from Amszon, not the author. The terms if my transaction with Amazon include the ability to return. They say nothing about reading a sample. I lose no return rights because I don't read samples.



> I must point out that the simple act of reading the sample would reveal the the pervasive errors that you describe.


Agree. But reading the sample is a transaction cost that increases the consumer's total costs. Amazon's return policy allows consumers to avoid that transaction cost without substantially increasing risk. It's designed for consumers, not suppliers.



> I haven't seen any writer's say it's "nothing" (although that doesn't mean some haven't. I don't see every post on the internet.) What I HAVE seen, and say myselfl, is that $5 for a book that gives hours of entertainment is a bargain compared to $8 to $10 for a 2 hour movie or a $5 fancy cup of coffee or one drink


.

We can observe millions of consumers assign very different relative values to those things. Its a function of the individual's tastes and preferences. Consumers will consider the quality of the entertainment in addition to the duration of the entertainment.

I have to figure over 300 million Americans assign zero value to my book. Look at all the stuff they buy while ignoring my pressing need for validation and a beach house in Bali. That's nearly a billion dollars I have lost.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Caddy said:


> I haven't seen any writer's say it's "nothing" (although that doesn't mean some haven't. I don't see every post on the internet.) What I HAVE seen, and say myselfl, is that $5 for a book that gives hours of entertainment is a *bargain *compared to $8 to $10 for a 2 hour movie or a $5 fancy cup of coffee or one drink.


Speaking of movies: Our new theater is $8.25 for a weekday matinee and 14.25 for some weekend movies. Can we say I'm not gonna be going to the new theater.
Yea for what it would cost 2 people to go see one show with popcorn and drinks, I could buy all your books. (But I am saving my pennies for your House of the Rising Sun series)

You can compare to movies and coffee all day long but here is the thing, some of us think $5 is way too expensive for a cup of coffee and any movie that is in the theater right now will be on Pay Per View in the next 6 months and one of the movie channels in the next year if not sooner so why would I spend $30 for 2 when I can just wait for it to come to my house.

I don't do overpriced coffee or movies and I do still think $5 is think about before you spend money. Yea to the coffee and movie crowd $5 would be nothing for a book but not everyone is in that crowd. 
Some readers do have bills, kids and other things they have to think about before giving some author their hard earned money.
I would bet there are more readers not buying $5 coffees than readers that do.

Point: A bargain to one may be a luxury to another.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

vanstry said:


> I am referring of course to the scammers who buy your book, read it, and then return it.
> And then do the next one in your catalog.
> And then the next.
> And the next.
> ...


I totally understand where you're coming from. The same has happened to me many, many times. The policy itself is not wrong because many times I clicked Buy by mistake, but it should only work if you rectify it immediately and not when you read a 500 page novel and then have the nerve to send it back.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Or, similarly, someone is playing with the device -- perhaps someone quite young in your household -- and doesn't realize that they're actually spending money when they push the pretty 'buy' button.  Again, nice that you can return those books without penalty.


This. My almost-4-year-old loves to push all the pretty buttons. She thinks it's a game. I'm sure my soon-to-be-20year-old will be the same.

(Actually, we've since downloaded a childlock app, but we didn't know about such a thing for quite a long time, so it was very nice that I was able to easily make returns.)


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Speaking of movies: Our new theater is $8.25 for a weekday matinee and 14.25 for some weekend movies. Can we say I'm not gonna be going to the new theater.
> Yea for what it would cost 2 people to go see one show with popcorn and drinks, I could buy all your books. (But I am saving my pennies for your House of the Rising Sun series)


Boy, do I hear you about the price of movies! We have a very limited income now and can't pay that kind of money for a movie, either. (although I will for a book. I get so little time to read it lasts me a few weeks at least! One of the disadvantages of writing.) Luckily for us, we do have a theatre nearby that is nice, but not stadium seating that shows FIRST RUN movies for $4.00 plus their popcorn has real butter instead of that yellow colored crap (is it car oil?) most use...for a fair price.  We can't afford to spend $30 for a movie, either. Yet, they are packed on the weekends.

P.S. You're close re: the name of my new series. It's "There Was a House". (yeah, from House of the Rising Sun). Episode #1 will be House of Pleasure. About 68,000 words.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I just thought of something.   Now I am not 100% sure on this, but I am going to guess that you know Amazon's policies on returns.   If you do not like the fact that Amazon puts the customer first then why are you doing business with them?   Did they threaten you if you do not sell at Amazon?  Unless you are in their select program, I am guessing that you do NOT have to sell your books at Amazon.  There are other locations to sell books.   
I am guessing that if most of you did not like the way a company did business, you would not shop there.   Yet, here you are complaining about the hand that feeds you.
Oh and for those comparing the $5 to a cup of coffee.  Let's see that would be an average of 2.5 books at 2.99 returned.   It is only $5, what is the big deal? 
It is only a cup of coffee.  In some of your own words you have said that.  
Or does that $5 somehow become more important when it is going into your pocket instead of out of someone else's?
Gee that $5 sure started adding up in a hurry didn't it.

Now I am only one little person but I have that $5 that I can choose to spend on your book, a cup of coffee, or I can give it to my neighbor so he can get a beer or two.    And on the book, I have my choice of at least 500,000 authors just at Amazon, who should I pick?  Someone that thinks $5 is a cup of coffee, someone that gripes about readers (in any form) or should I spend it on an author that appreciates it?   
Personally my vote would be the author that knows his readers are how he makes a living.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Caddy said:


> Boy, do I hear you about the price of movies! We have a very limited income now and can't pay that kind of money for a movie, either. (although I will for a book. I get so little time to read it lasts me a few weeks at least! One of the disadvantages of writing.) Luckily for us, we do have a theatre nearby that is nice, but not stadium seating that shows FIRST RUN movies for $4.00 plus their popcorn has real butter instead of that yellow colored crap (is it car oil?) most use...for a fair price.  We can't afford to spend $30 for a movie, either. Yet, they are packed on the weekends.
> 
> P.S. You're close re: the name of my new series. It's "There Was a House". (yeah, from House of the Rising Sun). Episode #1 will be House of Pleasure. About 68,000 words.


You want a giggle. When I checked the ticket prices on a Sunday Afternoon, the Monday matinee was already sold out too. Our theaters are always packed.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

God Bless Netflix, for I can watch in my skivvies.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Personally my vote would be the author that knows his readers are how he makes a living.


Oh, I would say most of us know that and appreciate it. I also believe most of us aren't saying "it's only a cup of coffee". Instead, we see lines of people at coffee shops shelling out $5 for coffee and say, "Hey, $5 can buy you a lot more hours of pleasure than that cup of coffee." See the difference? It is an "only". It's a "What is the better deal?" Personally, I don't buy $5 coffees, because I want something that lasts longer than a few minutes for $5. 

I think most here were complaining about habitual returners (not sure, I didn't read everything, I just saw the latest comments.) I haven't had it happen to me (except with my hard core erotic short stories, and that comes with the territory. Short stories can be read quickly and returned, which is not nice, but it happens. Amazon does watch of repeaters of that, though.)

As far as who you should buy, buy the same people I buy. Those whose books sound like something you want to read. I can't base my book purchases by an authors personality. If I did, most of the best sellers I've read in the past would never have been read! (We all have major faults, authors or not. Just write a good book, darn it!)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Caddy said:


> Oh, I would say most of us know that and appreciate it. I also believe most of us aren't saying "it's only a cup of coffee". Instead, we see lines of people at coffee shops shelling out $5 for coffee and say, "Hey, $5 can buy you a lot more hours of pleasure than that cup of coffee." See the difference? It is an "only". It's a "What is the better deal?" Personally, I don't buy $5 coffees, because I want something that lasts longer than a few minutes for $5.
> 
> I think most here were complaining about habitual returners (not sure, I didn't read everything, I just saw the latest comments.) I haven't had it happen to me (except with my hard core erotic short stories, and that comes with the territory. Short stories can be read quickly and returned, which is not nice, but it happens. Amazon does watch of repeaters of that, though.)
> 
> As far as who you should buy, buy the same people I buy. Those whose books sound like something you want to read. I can't base my book purchases by an authors personality. If I did, most of the best sellers I've read in the past would never have been read! (We all have major faults, authors or not. Just write a good book, darn it!)


I hear you on the last part. Now what I would really like is a Caddy Oil Painting but I couldn't afford you. Heck I couldn't afford the oils not to mention your time.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> I hear you on the last part. Now what I would really like is a Caddy Oil Painting but I couldn't afford you. Heck I couldn't afford the oils not to mention your time.


I would like a Picasso. Yeah, in my dreams! Yet he was one of the biggest asshats to ever live. Put that in all capitals. Still, for me his and Braques are the best. If I ever win a HUGE lottery I will own one. And, if I could meet one dead person it would be him. To work next to him would be a great joy, asshat or not (although I often joke that his attitude toward women would cause me to slap him so hard he'd being seeing in cubism for the rest of his life...)


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I would like a Picasso. Yeah, in my dreams! Yet he was one of the biggest asshats to ever live


Asshats? Can I recommend my book?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> Asshats? Can I recommend my book?


Is it about an asshat?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Caddy said:


> Is it about an asshat?


No. But my wife mentioned the authors name and Asshat in the same sentence. Harsh.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> No. But my wife mentioned the authors name and Asshat in the same sentence. Harsh.


Terrence alas Amazon will not allow me to give you money. I am so sorry but it seems I already have your book.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> No. But my wife mentioned the authors name and Asshat in the same sentence. Harsh.


You must have left the toilet seat up again!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Terrence alas Amazon will not allow me to give you money. I am so sorry but it seems I already have your book.


Call 1-800-ASSHATT. have your credit card handy.


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

Check to see if your returned book are showing up on free download sites.

I am wondering if this sudden spate of returns hasn't something to do with people uploading the material elsewhere?  If people were doing this with free promotion ebooks, what is to say that when they run low on free download material they won't start purchasing and then returning books after uploading them elsewhere?

When I was on Select and ran a free promotion last spring, my book started showing up on free PDF or mobi download sites.  On a couple of sites, all one need do is click on the cover and the entire book shows up.  So far, only one site has respected a take down notice.  I received a notice from Amazon recently that my book was available freely on the web and I had to resubmit the rights to publish.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

Rhynedahll said:


> I must point out that the simple act of reading the sample would reveal the the pervasive errors that you describe.


This is untrue.

Some authors edit the crap out of their book's opening, but don't do that for the rest of their books.

Also I've seen books that seemed OK when sampled, then its formatting got wonky later.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Wouldn't that be all the more reason to NOT steal that money from the poor, starving writer?


How do we calculate the amount that is stolen from the poor, starving writer? If we can't do that, how do we know something is stolen?



> I am wondering if this sudden spate of returns hasn't something to do with people uploading the material elsewhere? If people were doing this with free promotion ebooks, what is to say that when they run low on free download material they won't start purchasing and then returning books after uploading them elsewhere?


Its even worse than that. What if they just buy the book, keep it, and upload it elsewhere?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

NadiaLee said:


> This is untrue.
> 
> Some authors edit the crap out of their book's opening, but don't do that for the rest of their books.
> 
> Also I've seen books that seemed OK when sampled, then its formatting got wonky later.


Several books I had gotten had great formatting until chapter 7. One and I had to giggle, chapter 6 had 7 words per line, that is about standard for the settings I use. Chapter 7 had 5 words per line, Chapter 8 had 4 words, chapter 9 3 words, chapter 10 2 words, chapter 11 had 1 word per line, then it started going back up.
Another book in chapter 7, had 1 letter per line.

In both those cases, the sample would have been fine.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

locking for now. . . .there have been reports. . . . .


after review and discussion by the mod team, we've decided to re-open this thread as it's a good discussion topic.  Some posts that contained personal attacks or disrespectful language have been removed.  If that sort of thing continues, the thread will be permanently locked.


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## Katherine Roberts (Apr 4, 2013)

lmroth12 said:


> It sounds like someone may have purchased them as gifts for someone who then opened them and decided to return them. I had just the opposite scenario last year when 2 sales came through on a book but at a higher price than currently listed (it was on sale for the holidays at the time) and was informed by Amazon KDP that they were gift sales made 2 months before but just opened by the recipient, hence the higher price. Gift books are not counted as a sale until they are opened because the recipient has the option to either accept the gift or exchange it for something else in the Amazon store.
> 
> It is possible that some refunds are the result of a gift purchase made for someone who decided the book wasn't to their taste but tried it anyway and then returned it. I can see where that can happen if parents buy a book series for a teen hoping they will like it but after trying a little of each book they decide it isn't really what they want and so they send them back book by book. While it's true that there are probably some people ripping off the system, I also believe that some refunds are made by people who buy a book thinking it's one with a similar title and decide not to keep the one they purchased by mistake, or people who hit the Buy button accidentally.


Ah yes, thank you - that would make sense, since the two returned titles are part of a series aimed at teens and I can see how that might happen with a gifted ebook. Interesting to note both the returned books have girls as main characters, whereas the first few books in the series have boys, so perhaps that was the problem... it's not the usual kind of younger series where the same characters appear in every book, so while the book descriptions and my website do explain this, I suppose it might have misled someone simply clicking on titles/covers to gift the books!


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