# Authors bickering and it's influence on reading habits



## Iris (May 16, 2012)

I recently purchased an indie book for my Kindle based upon reviews I had read in places other than this site.  I began reading it. Liked what I had read.

Then a pissing match began about this author here on KB, in the Writer's Cafe. I haven't read a single word of the book I downloaded since that began. 

It may be the world's greatest book. I'm never going to know. I actually went back into my paper book stack for something to read just to get out of the craziness that is unfolding in the Writer's Cafe. That book now has an association of you all eating your own--it's just nasty.

I'm not going to name names. But I am appalled and really put off of ANY indie books given what I have seen unfold in the Writer's Cafe. I'm probably not going to finish the book I downloaded.  I'm certainly not going to buy anything from the authors who shat all over that author. (yes, I do take notes)

I am DONE with indie books. Over, caput. Will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever dip my toe in that utter cesspool of hateful people again.  Congratulations: the Writer's Cafe has made me decide to read elsewhere.  

We may not post in there, as readers, but we do read the threads. Be aware that we (your customers) do take note of what transpires in there.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

That's extremely odd. I must admit I've been struggling with a few things in the real world (It's been a really bad week) so my KB stalking has been somewhat... lax... over the last few days, but I've found that around here authors are extremely supportive of each other. Just look at any of the 1-star threads, or the "why isn't this book selling?" threads, or even the semi-regular Wool "HOLY HELL" thread, or anything like that. One thread that comes to mind was the recent issues Kay Bratt was having with "Chasing China"; several people bought her book to confirm the issue, there were helpful and supportive comments left everywhere, and we worked through the problem together. This has been the norm, rather than the exception, in my experience.

"Pissing match"... I'm Australian, but when we use that phrase over here, it refers to infantile comparisons of skill/wealth/power/etc. "You have a V6? Well I have a V8!" / "Oh yeah? Well, my husband makes 80k! Well mine makes 100k!" Etc etc. It seems, by your tone, that you meant something else... a "dogpile", where many authors chime in with criticism and the original poster gets overwhelmed. This is rare and is usually exacerbated by 
the OP's behaviour ("My work is flawless! Don't you criticise me when I'm asking for criticism!") or gets swiftly locked.

I've certainly never seen a large-scale case of "eating our own". I _have_ seen author meltdowns where writers make very bizarre, offensive or highly arrogant claims/demands and take offence when the truth is presented, and I've seen threads requesting help where the help was taken as a personal slight, and a few other things like this... but I really haven't seen anything where, maliciously, the boards have turned on someone who didn't deserve it at all.

I'm sorry that the Writer's Cafe has spoiled this particular book for you. I won't ask what it was or who was involved, but if you as a forum goer spot a thread that requires moderation, the "Report to a moderator" is right there. They're extremely prompt and will get involved ASAP.


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## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

I have to admit I'm a little befuddled here. KB is one of the nicest of boards for indie authors. I've been to many other boards that are much less indie friendly and much more apt to start pissing matches. Did I miss a thread or something? Not that I want to see the thread that the OP is mentioning, but I would hate to think that it or other threads are turning readers off. Sure, we piss and moan a little about sales, but more often than not there is advise sharing and on occasion a tough love approach to the do's and don't's of this business. That shouldn't be misconstrued as pissing matches.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

No clue what the OP is talking about.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Even at its worst, I don't think it's fair to call WC a cesspool or the people who post here hateful. Emotions do sometimes get the best of people. We are, after all, just people too. We're all trying our best to help each other. Sometimes that might come across as hurtful, but I truly believe it's seldom meant that way.

Even the best of us can have an ugly moment or two. Even Canadians riot now and again.  I hope once you've had more time to think about it, you'll reconsider. You're certainly within your rights to shun all indies, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice by painting, or any group, with so broad a brush.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Iris said:


> I recently purchased an indie book for my Kindle based upon reviews I had read in places other than this site. I began reading it. Liked what I had read.
> 
> Then a pissing match began about this author here on KB, in the Writer's Cafe. I haven't read a single word of the book I downloaded since that began.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sorry that you were bothered so much by whatever transpired (and I have no idea what thread you mean) that you'd stop reading other indie authors. It does make we wonder, though, if you are going to stop reading traditional authors because Norman Mailer, following a review by Vidal that went several large steps beyond scathing, once head butted Gore Vidal and then publicly called him all kinds of names on TV and then later punched him in the face and threw a glass of whiskey at him. Vidal's response is said to have been, "As usual, words failed him."

Dashiell Hammett is rumored to have hired a prostitute to try to break up S. J. Perelman's marriage.

And you definitely don't want to read what Mark Twain said about James Fenimore Cooper's writing.

Anyway, whoever you do find who you want to read, I wish you the best of luck.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm not sure what thread you are talking about, although I have my suspicions as one recently upset many of us here, too.

But to give up reading all indie books because of a few badly behaving authors, mystifies me.  

However, that is your choice.  But you will be giving up some great stories and some darned nice authors.  I'm sorry your time in the Writer's Cafe was so short.  Best of luck to you.


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## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, I'm sorry that you were bothered so much by whatever transpired (and I have no idea what thread you mean) that you'd stop reading other indie authors. It does make we wonder, though, if you are going to stop reading traditional authors because Norman Mailer, following a review by Vidal that went several large steps beyond scathing, once head butted Gore Vidal and then publicly called him all kinds of names on TV and then later punched him in the face and threw a glass of whiskey at him. Vidal's response is said to have been, "As usual, words failed him."
> 
> Dashiell Hammett is rumored to have hired a prostitute to try to break up S. J. Perelman's marriage.
> 
> ...


Good point! Both sides do fight every now and again. It's not just us indies.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

And this clip of Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer should knock out the traditionally published authors, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8m9vDRe8fw


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm sorry you were put off by an ugly thread (don't know which one you mean, but I guess it doesn't matter that much). I can understand not wishing to read books by an author / authors or watch movies with certain actors who have done something in "real life" that you find unacceptable. But, as others have said, I wouldn't give up on all indie authors, period. There are many wonderful indie books written by wonderful people.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

It's strange, really. I can't speak for every author -- such a thing is impossible -- but I'm more than happy to review Indie authors whenever I read anything, if I have the time, especially because I know just how valuable and encouraging it is to get a review. You can check out my reviews on Amazon... I review in a broad range of categories, and by and large my feedback is quite positive. Far from having bickering and snarkiness at other authors, I'm constantly getting blown away by the talent present on these boards. I sometimes wish we could all be millionaires because that's what we deserve.

Perhaps you were thinking of the Amazon forums, where recently an author got chewed to bits for self-promotion and their book covered in 1-stars.

I don't go there. Those are dark lands.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Gotta give a big thumbs up to the authors here in the WC. This is the second time in less than a week where an entire forum of authors gets dumped on in a drive-by thread. Yet, in spite of no proof of an offense being given, everyone is tripping over each other to apologize to the OP. If that isn't class, I don't know what is. In fact, it makes me wonder about the legitimacy of the supposed offense/s. But what do I know? I'm usually wading my way through the occasional forum dust-ups half-drunk, raving mad, and sword in hand.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I agree, David.  I've found so much kindness here, including your kindness to me and others.  I also thought she may have been thinking of the kdp forums at first as they are kind of scary lately.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Kevis!  LOL...we actually do need a drunken swordsman around here.  Keeps the place ship-shape.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

JeanneM said:


> Kevis! LOL...we actually do need a drunken swordsman around here. Keeps the place ship-shape.


Hey, I do what I can.  BTW, happy to see Dual back in your siggy. I absolutely adore that book!!!!!


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

OMG!!  Really?  Thank you so much.  This means so much to me, coming from you.  I'm excited!!


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

Iris said:


> I'm not going to name names.


Why the hell not? People who behave poorly in public deserve to be embarrassed. People who don't know WTF you're talking about deserve to know WTF you're talking about. People who don't know what behaving poorly in public looks like need to be shown.



JeanneM said:


> I'm not sure what thread you are talking about, although I have my suspicions as one recently upset many of us here, too.


Let the rest of us know.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

JeanneM said:


> OMG!! Really? Thank you so much. This means so much to me, coming from you. I'm excited!!


You really should be proud of that book. It totally rocks.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you, again.   It just doesn't sell, though.  But if you like it, and David Adams and Bilinda liked it, I'm flying high anyway!  I could kiss you!!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

JeanneM said:


> Thank you, again.  It just doesn't sell, though. But if you like it, and David Adams and Bilinda liked it, I'm flying high anyway! I could kiss you!!


Maybe it's just a late bloomer. It really is a wonderful book, Jeanne. So I'm sure it'll find its audience. Just give it some time.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

No idea what is being discussed here. I've glanced at the boards on and off all afternoon, and I never saw anything like what was described by the OP. I glanced over the last 5 or 6 pages of history, and still didn't notice anything. I didn't look at all the threads, but I'm with the others here: rather confused about what supposedly happened.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

[scratches head]

Maybe it's the hug thread and all the members offering their hugs to the OP? Because that's the sort of thing that's tearing this dysfunctional family apart!


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I think maybe we're being lead down the garden path here.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Well, some of us do put the FUN in DysFUNtional.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Could be the erotica thread, about how they didn't feel welcome. That was the most recent hot discussion I can think of in recent memory. Not even David Adam's request for advice on religion or Sybil Nelson's request for help on an article for HuffPo about racism hit the high temperatures of that erotica thread, if memory serves. There have been a couple of others, but that's all I can remember right now (and the others I can remember are a lot older than this thread, so I don't think they may be related).


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> Could be the erotica thread, about how they didn't feel welcome. That was the most recent hot discussion I can think of in recent memory. Not even David Adam's request for advice on religion or Sybil Nelson's request for help on an article for HuffPo about racism hit the high temperatures of that erotica thread, if memory serves. There have been a couple of others, but that's all I can remember right now (and the others I can remember are a lot older than this thread, so I don't think they may be related).


I was thinking about the erotica thread but that was quite some time ago in my squirrel brain. It certainly was the hottest thread for a while.


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## micki (Oct 8, 2010)

I am truly amazed by this statement. I have found kindness, support and valuable advice on this board. I certainly haven't read any thread where authors have 'taken out' another author. For starters, I don't think the moderators would allow it and secondly the caliber of authors on this board wouldn't stoop that low.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't know either exactly which thread has caused this visceral reaction.  However, while I think the OP's position is a bit extreme, she is 100% entitled to it as a human being.  And she's not wrong: I've seen a fair bit of rather nasty, bullying behavior in the Cafe over the last 4 years.  And remember, even if it happened a year ago or more, the thread is still there and liable to influence people.  We moderators do a lot of saving you from yourselves by deleting the worst bits. 

That doesn't mean I won't EVER read an independent author again -- again, I think that position is extreme but I think the reader is entitled to take it -- but it does meant that there are some on my "do not buy" list.  I have no wish to support certain people people based solely on my impression of them from their posts here. 

So the point of the post is completely valid:  Your behavior here -- and indeed anywhere on line -- can and DOES influence folks to try your books or NOT.

I ALSO think that the rest of the internet is about a thousand times worse. . . . .


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

I can't comment on what specific event you're referring too, but I would ask you to reconsider about no longer reading self published works.  Remember we're all entitled to personal opinion be it good or bad, politely or thoughtlessly delivered.

I actually found your own post unfair, as you have branded all self publishers as no go zones over one incident.

I find a lot of stuff that happens in here (or in any internet forum) off putting (and KB is the best policed I've found), but I'm aware that I'm overly sensitive, and have to take into consideration the world is filled with different people who express themselves in all kinds of ways. 

Yes, at times things can become murky, or hit a raw nerve, but that is human nature. Read the book and form your own opinion. In the end, that is all that really matters. In life, we sometimes feel that because something has been written or said we have to understand and appreciate it when really all we have to do is respect the person saying it and move on.


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## AmberC (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm not sure what thread you could be talking about. I'm sorry you had that impression of the authors here. In my experience this forum is one of the most supportive places I've ever experienced.  I've gained support I wouldn't trade for gold. 
If it hadn't been for that support and encouragement we would have never had the courage to self publish. 
I hope you reconsider and take a look at the larger picture of what is really going on here.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I've always found KB to be one of the most civil and constructive sites anywhere on the net.  I've received so much good advice and support from the people here, and I hope I've been able to offer some myself.  I don't read every single thread so I'm not sure which one the OP is talking about, but I'm sorry it happened.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)




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## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

The OP no longer seems to be around, though she may very well be lurking to see what kind of sh-t storm she started. But we can probably all agree that using one example to tar a whole group and (in effect) saying she's going to take her marbles and go home and never, never play in this playground again is a whole lot more mature than what she's complaining about. [end of snark]


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, I can think of at least three recent brouhahas here in the Writers' Café that would meet Iris's description.  I won't comment on her reaction--it's hers and she's entitled to it.  I think that the thing to take from her comment is that your discussions here are read by potential customers and have impact.  This is a forum for Kindle owners, after all.  They're everywhere!  

Yes, we are known as the "nice Internet forum" and yes, things mostly go pretty well.  But I've seen more than one lynch mob form on KindleBoards, and most often, lately, here in the Writers' Café.

More than once, I've started to post a reply to a thread and thought better of it.  It's a good habit to get into. 

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

One man's coal is another man's diamond. If this forum was nothing but smiles and cookies, I'd go somewhere else. We're adults with egos who all choose to come here of our own free will and that's gonna result in a skirmish every now and then. I don't see any helpless sheep on here, too meek to stand up for themselves in need of protecting. There's bickering in politics, sports, business, entertainment, etc...If someone shuns groups because of bickering, they'll end end up in a cave somewhere (just hope there are no animals that wander in, because they bicker too.)


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> More than once, I've started to post a reply to a thread and thought better of it. It's a good habit to get into.


I'll take that suggestion.... this time.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> One man's coal is another man's diamond. If this forum was nothing but smiles and cookies, I'd go somewhere else. We're adults with egos who all choose to come here of our own free will and that's gonna result in a skirmish every now and then. I don't see any helpless sheep on here, too meek to stand up for themselves in need of protecting. There's bickering in politics, sports, business, entertainment, etc...If someone shuns groups because of bickering, they'll end end up in a cave somewhere (just hope there are no animals that wander in, because they bicker too.)


Smiles and Cookies!!! It is supposed to be Puppies and Rainbows. What are you trying to pull? 



NathanWrann said:


> I'll take that suggestion.... this time.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

OK, let's just say it is *****'s fault and be done with it. I accept full responsibility. And while I couldn't really care if someone I don't know in the real world and whom I don't remember ever interacting with leaves in a big dramatic flourish over a forum thread that I don't know about, I will do what I can to make my fellow KB's feel better.

So let's all share some of this:










And just bury our sorrows with this:










or, as some of you prefer, this:









And for the gentlemen:


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Julie, you are AWSOME! I think I'll stare at your post a while.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Drat! I missed all the bickering and squabbling again. It's always so polite whenever I come here. Besty or Ann can you put it up on Instant Replay? Some of us missed it? Or maybe a blow-by-blow summary?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

No posts have been harmed in the moderating of this thread....(i.e., nothing has been removed, edited, or filtered).

Betsy

pssst, Jack--it's "Betsy" not "Besty."  Unless that was a commentary on our friendship....


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Monique said:


> Even the best of us can have an ugly moment or two. Even Canadians riot now and again.


LIES TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And the post that proves the point...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)




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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

It's Julie's fault. But if it weren't Julie's fault it would be because of the rioting Canadians. *nod nod*


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)




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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Those Canadiens are nuts. My frat buddies and I went fishing on Lac Monet a couple years ago (before they developed it). The morning we were coming back, we stopped in a bar south of there for a hair-of-the-dog bloody Mary or three, and these two indians (might've been eskimos, I don't know the difference between the two) start fighting in the bar. They were punching each other in the chops, kicking each other in the nuts, etc...but the whole time they were laughing and talking to each other like they were playing a friendly game of tennis. Weird.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Don't make me separate you two...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

You're mean


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And just bury our sorrows with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Worthy of a repeat...


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> And you definitely don't want to read what Mark Twain said about James Fenimore Cooper's writing.


So glad you mentioned this. I hadn't thought about it in years, and it's just about the funniest thing ever.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

You know, that Twain flaming of Cooper made me think of something. I read _The Last of the Mohicans_ as a kid and I adored it, but I read a version that had been translated into Czech (I didn't speak English yet back then), I wonder if whoever translated it into Czech corrected some of the flaws Twain was railing about. I might've actually read a better version than English speaking people got to read.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Don't make me separate you two...


*cowers in terror*



Becca Mills said:


> So glad you mentioned this. I hadn't thought about it in years, and it's just about the funniest thing ever.


Thanks. I've always loved it. My favorite is this one:

_3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. But this detail has often been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale._

Around here some of us are pretty good at snark but we could still take lessons from the redoubtable Mr. Twain.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Most of us here who have gotten into "skirmishes" get over it pretty quickly. Some have strong opinions based on personal experiences, and others are trying to be heard. I'd say everyone's hearts here are in the right place in that we're all ultimately trying to help each other: 

a) become better at the craft of writing.
b) become better at marketing our works by fixing our covers, blurbs, prices, and marketing strategies, so they work.
c) by offering encouragement and commiseration.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> You know, that Twain flaming of Cooper made me think of something. I read _The Last of the Mohicans_ as a kid and I adored it, but I read a version that had been translated into Czech (I didn't speak English yet back then), I wonder if whoever translated it into Czech corrected some of the flaws Twain was railing about. I might've actually read a better version than English speaking people got to read.


Maybe so, but I read Cooper in junior high in English, and I didn't notice all the stuff Twain points out. Like the thing about the 30-foot-wide barge going down the 31-foot-wide river, navigating all those twists and bends with just 6 inches on either side. And then all the Native Americans climbing onto a tree limb to jump on the barge, when they could've just stepped onto it from the 6-inches-away bank. And how the first guy jumps off the branch and misses the barge (despite how slowly it must be creeping along, with those 6-inch clearances), and all the other guys jump off after him, even though he missed.

Somehow, as a child reader, I didn't notice that these things didn't make sense.

Edited to add: If anyone wants to read Twain's essay, it's here: http://www.pbs.org/marktwain/learnmore/writings_fenimore.html


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

I don't want to take a "blame the victim" mentality (well, OK, maybe in this case I do) but whenever I come across this sort of thread it is generally someone who is relatively new to the board with a low post count. And I know a lot of people are "lurkers" and just read, but I have to wonder how much of this angst is actually the fact that these folks don't interact with us and know our personalities. My girlfriends and I are a snarky lot, and if a stranger listened in on some of our conversations they would think we hated each other. But most of it is just being funny. I know she doesn't mean it. She knows I don't mean it. I might say something that sounds mean but is actually a long-running joke that goes back to high school. But people on the outside looking in wouldn't know that. So they hear the comments and maybe think we're all a bunch of witches.

And I think some of that happens here. You have a lot of folks here with strong personalities and creative streaks. But for the most part we also kind of know each other and know each other's buttons. So I say point A, someone else says point B, we all know what was meant but someone new to the forum reads it and thinks we hate each other when it fact we're referencing something said five threads ago. Perhaps before people come in with these "Goodbye cruel forum" threads making blanket accusations, they should take it upon themselves to at least spend some time learning the group dynamics before passing judgment.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Those Canadiens are nuts. My frat buddies and I went fishing on Lac Monet a couple years ago (before they developed it). The morning we were coming back, we stopped in a bar south of there for a hair-of-the-dog bloody Mary or three, and these two indians (might've been eskimos, I don't know the difference between the two) start fighting in the bar. They were punching each other in the chops, kicking each other in the nuts, etc...but the whole time they were laughing and talking to each other like they were playing a friendly game of tennis. Weird.


I'm pretty sure they weren't Indians. . .as they come from India. No doubt there are some Indians in Canada but you probably mean someone from one of the aboriginal peoples. Probably Inuit.

I learned that from my Canadian friend.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't want to take a "blame the victim" mentality (well, OK, maybe in this case I do) but whenever I come across this sort of thread it is generally someone who is relatively new to the board with a low post count. And I know a lot of people are "lurkers" and just read, but I have to wonder how much of this angst is actually the fact that these folks don't interact with us and know our personalities. My girlfriends and I are a snarky lot, and if a stranger listened in on some of our conversations they would think we hated each other. But most of it is just being funny. I know she doesn't mean it. She knows I don't mean it. I might say something that sounds mean but is actually a long-running joke that goes back to high school. But people on the outside looking in wouldn't know that. So they hear the comments and maybe think we're all a bunch of witches.
> 
> And I think some of that happens here. You have a lot of folks here with strong personalities and creative streaks. But for the most part we also kind of know each other and know each other's buttons. So I say point A, someone else says point B, we all know what was meant but someone new to the forum reads it and thinks we hate each other when it fact we're referencing something said five threads ago. Perhaps before people come in with these "Goodbye cruel forum" threads making blanket accusations, they should take it upon themselves to at least spend some time learning the group dynamics before passing judgment.


This is a good point.

But I also think it behooves people to remember that there are lots of people reading here who _don't_ know all the in jokes. It can feel very intimidating. So while it's all well and good to say, "why don't you just join in and get to know us" that's VERY hard for some people. I think the ones already here have the bigger responsibility. . . to behave in a way that people will generally find welcoming.

Here's the thing. . . if something you* posted that was taken in good fun by people that know you, but that produced a visceral negative reaction in those who don't, that's doing damage to your 'brand'. Do you really want to do that when it's perfectly easy to be more courteous?

*generic you, no one in particular


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't want to take a "blame the victim" mentality (well, OK, maybe in this case I do) but whenever I come across this sort of thread it is generally someone who is relatively new to the board with a low post count. And I know a lot of people are "lurkers" and just read, but I have to wonder how much of this angst is actually the fact that these folks don't interact with us and know our personalities. My girlfriends and I are a snarky lot, and if a stranger listened in on some of our conversations they would think we hated each other. But most of it is just being funny. I know she doesn't mean it. She knows I don't mean it. I might say something that sounds mean but is actually a long-running joke that goes back to high school. But people on the outside looking in wouldn't know that. So they hear the comments and maybe think we're all a bunch of witches.
> 
> And I think some of that happens here. You have a lot of folks here with strong personalities and creative streaks. But for the most part we also kind of know each other and know each other's buttons. So I say point A, someone else says point B, we all know what was meant but someone new to the forum reads it and thinks we hate each other when it fact we're referencing something said five threads ago. Perhaps before people come in with these "Goodbye cruel forum" threads making blanket accusations, they should take it upon themselves to at least spend some time learning the group dynamics before passing judgment.


I think this particular poster has been trying to get to know you guys here. She even started a thread right here in the WC asking if its ok for her as a reader to post. She was welcomed and authors posted to the thread.

I also saw this thread start in the Non Kindle forum and it was moved to the cafe.

I can't speak to the specific things in the OP post, but I have seen a lot of stuff too that has turned me off quite a bit as a reader.

Although the post is pretty blunt by the OP, the overall message I think is that everything stays put, unless its deleted. So even though you guys have moved on from something that was said 2 weeks ago, or 2 months ago, its still there. There are many folks that go back and read older threads all the time.

And I think because lots of you know each other now and know how to talk to each other, its easy to forget that others don't know all these things. It can be a bit cliquish at times. And I been here since 2008 and I still feel that way sometimes. Imagine being someone pretty new around here.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Here's the thing. . . if something you* posted that was taken in good fun by people that know you, but that produced a visceral negative reaction in those who don't, that's doing damage to your 'brand'. Do you really want to do that when it's perfectly easy to be more courteous?


That's reasonable. But we should also consider the same posting can antagonize some and attract others. How do we measure that? I don't know how we measure any of this stuff.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> That's reasonable. But we should also consider the same posting can antagonize some and attract others. How do we measure that? I don't know how we measure any of this stuff.


Good point. It also seems to me that the best writers tend to have strong personalities. A strong personality will attract some people and repel others. And that's true of life in general, as well.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

While I "know" readers (who aren't writers) lurk here, my target market 12-16 year-old girls, are not here. And frankly, the reason I come to Writers' Cafe (as the title implies) is to let my hair down (pun intended) and hang out with other writers. I'm not going to walk on eggshells for lurkers. Just as I write, I don't write for those who aren't going to like my books, but for those who love them. Life is too short to go around trying to please everyone.

Even if you _try_, 1/3rd aren't going to like you (something about you just rubs them the wrong way), 1/3rd haven't made up their mind yet, and the other 1/3rd do like you.

Don't sweat the ones who don't, again, c'est la vie.

If Iris has the right to boycott all indie authors over something beyond mine and most indie authors' control (which is fine) but to throw it in our faces? Why would genuine readers get upset if I got upset over a remark like that? Why should I say that's okay? It's not. It's not nice and that's the truth.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm pretty sure they weren't Indians. . .as they come from India. No doubt there are some Indians in Canada but you probably mean someone from one of the aboriginal peoples. Probably Inuit.
> 
> I learned that from my Canadian friend.


*snort* You beat me to it.

~~

As for the poster, I'm 99% sure I know what she's talking about. It's unfortunate because there's no addressing the issue.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrence OBrien said:


> That's reasonable. But we should also consider the same posting can antagonize some and attract others. How do we measure that? I don't know how we measure any of this stuff.


I guess I don't see it as that hard.

You might want to say a person's book is bad. Maybe it is. But there are lots of ways to say it besides, "your book sucks, you know, why don't you just give up.'

AND. . . maybe you would say EXACTLY that to someone you know well and whose book really isn't too bad.

But you're not just between the two of you here. . .you're in front of 50,000+ pairs of eyes. And a LOT of those eyes won't get that you're joking.

OR if, as in the first case, you really meant it, they'll just think you're mean and you will have lost a prospective reader.

Why do you want to do that? Why can't it just be said much more nicely . . . or PRIVATELY!

O.k. I get that some people ask for feedback here. . . fine. . . .even if it's negative, it still doesn't have to be mean. And if you can't tell that it is -- or can be construed as -- mean, well, maybe it would be better to just not say it at all.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> While I "know" readers (who aren't writers) lurk here, my target market 12-16 year-old girls, are not here.


But their parents and aunts and big sisters are. . . and they're the ones who actually have the money to spend. Seems like it's not smart to antagonize them.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I'm pretty sure they weren't Indians. . .as they come from India. No doubt there are some Indians in Canada but you probably mean someone from one of the aboriginal peoples. Probably Inuit.
> 
> I learned that from my Canadian friend.


I'm allowed to call them Indians, my wife is 1/4 Choctaw, and she said I could. And, since I can't call them American Indians or Native Americans because I was in Canada...Anyway, I think the Algonkin tribes were up in that region. You might be right, it might have been Inuits, but I think they're farther northwest toward Alaska. Though, admitedly, I'm guessing.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

People have every right to support who they want.  It’s really human nature to want to support people you like personally, and in the same respects, to not want to spend your money on the work of someone you dislike or who has rubbed you the wrong way.  I think this is a byproduct of the internet and the exposure it gives.  The ability to “see behind the curtain” if you will.  I’d be willing to bet if you interacted with a lot of Hollywood types and held them to these standards, you’d never watch another movie.  You’d probably miss out on some great music if you held every rock star to these standards.  So, although it feels right, the person you’d be most hurting is yourself.  

I think Mel Gibson is a total jerk.  I finally sucked it up and watched Apocalypto and loved it.  Who was I hurting ultimately by not supporting Mel?

I do agree with the general sentiment that people could be a little nicer on these boards and that it’s prudent to keep in mind that your actions can impact how potential readers view you.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I'm allowed to call them Indians, my wife is 1/4 Choctaw, and she said I could.


Except that it's a term rarely used in Canada


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> While I "know" readers (who aren't writers) lurk here, my target market 12-16 year-old girls, are not here. And frankly, the reason I come to Writers' Cafe (as the title implies) is to let my hair down (pun intended) and hang out with other writers. I'm not going to walk on eggshells for lurkers. Just as I write, I don't write for those who aren't going to like my books, but for those who love them. Life is too short to go around trying to please everyone.
> 
> Even if you _try_, 1/3rd aren't going to like you (something about you just rubs them the wrong way), 1/3rd haven't made up their mind yet, and the other 1/3rd do like you.
> 
> Don't sweat the ones who don't, again, c'est la vie.


Well first one, some of us don't just lurk, we participate. Although sometimes I feel like I am talking to a full room of people that pretend I am invisible, or I have been thinly veiled shooed out of a thread too. . 
You can let your hair down as much as you want, well within the rules of the board I guess.

But then you, general you as in this section, can't be acting all surprised when someone gets hurt, insulted or has some other reaction to it.

Can't say who me? I never seen anything like that evah on this board. We are all nice little angels around here.  Again, general you.

Some stuff is just common sense though.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Except that it's a term rarely used in Canada


What term do you use?


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> So while it's all well and good to say, "why don't you just join in and get to know us" that's VERY hard for some people. I think the ones already here have the bigger responsibility. . . to behave in a way that people will generally find welcoming.


I understand the point, but here is the issue. In many of these instances, it isn't the OP who is even being 'attacked' or 'insulted.' The person the comments are directed at often aren't even batting an eyelash at it. People are getting offended *FOR * other people. People are getting offended over things that were not directed at them in conversations they weren't even involved. Meanwhile, the people involved in the conversation have no clue why this other person not involved in the conversation is so upset. There is a fine line between being welcoming and being forced to walk on eggshells because someone I don't know whom I'm not even talking to might get upset about something I say to someone I've known for years.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Well first one, some of us don't just lurk, we participate. Although sometimes I feel like I am talking to a full room of people that pretend I am invisible, or I have been thinly veiled shooed


Oh, we know you're there. We've been keeping an eye on you and keeping a double secret black-hat file of your activities. You're in trouble.


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## Craig Halloran (May 15, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> OK, let's just say it is Julie's fault and be done with it. I accept full responsibility. And while I couldn't really care if someone I don't know in the real world and whom I don't remember ever interacting with leaves in a big dramatic flourish over a forum thread that I don't know about, I will do what I can to make my fellow KB's feel better.
> 
> So let's all share some of this:
> 
> ...


Apology accepted, Julie!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'd say everyone's hearts here are in the right place in that we're all ultimately trying to help each other:


Speak for yourself. I'm here to burn, rape, and pillage.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I understand the point, but here is the issue. In many of these instances, it isn't the OP who is even being 'attacked' or 'insulted.' The person the comments are directed at often aren't even batting an eyelash at it. People are getting offended *FOR * other people. People are getting offended over things that were not directed at them in conversations they weren't even involved. Meanwhile, the people involved in the conversation have no clue why this other person not involved in the conversation is so upset. There is a fine line between being welcoming and being forced to walk on eggshells because someone I don't know whom I'm not even talking to might get upset about something I say to someone I've known for years.


Good point. If I slap a thread with my shiny new cover that has the male character in full armor and the female character in a thong and haltar top with little leaves of armour on her shoulders, I'd expect Krista to flame the thing, and the fact that we know each other actually allows her to be even more harsh than she'd be if we didn't. To someone relatively new on the board, that might come off is rude, as "eating our own". That's not to say there are no nasty battles on here every now and then. There certainly are. And people do get rude, but every time I've seen that, Ann or Betsy comes in with the fire hose and pepper spray.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> While I "know" readers (who aren't writers) lurk here, my target market 12-16 year-old girls, are not here.


At least they're not posting here. 

Betsy


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Lurkers Veto?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

o/t warning to answer a question:



vrabinec said:


> What term do you use?


Typically:

Native when just talking (i.e. "He's dating a native girl.") We don't use "Native American" since, you know, we aren't American 
Indian when talking about official government things (i.e. "The new rules caused me to lose my status Indian." (though, most people just say "status")
Aboriginal when it's written down or a news piece (i.e. "He was convicted of first degree murder of Jame Doe, a 13 year old aboriginal girl.")
Metis is when you aren't status, but aboriginal.
Inuit is when you are, well, Inuit 
First Nations when referring to, well First Nations, though most people are moving to using "First Nations" as someone who is aboriginal when using a more formal term.

These aren't hard and fast rules, and they do vary across the country. Alberta has a high First Nations population, and I had many clients who were Metis, so I got used to the terms. However, back home in Newfoundland, there aren't many First Nations people on the island, so some people still use the term "Indian" simply because they don't realize how it bothers folks (of course, then again, I'm sure some people use it BECAUSE it bothers people).

I am probably more of a sticker for the proper language since I've had to do so many reports, speaking to the news, and police files. But, aboriginal and native is generally used in everyday speak.

But, yeah, we don't say "Indian".


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Craig Halloran said:


> Apology accepted, Julie!


Damn you. You had to repost the pic, didn't you? Now I'm gonna lose another ten minutes studying Scarlett...Mmmmmm


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I understand the point, but here is the issue. In many of these instances, it isn't the OP who is even being 'attacked' or 'insulted.' The person the comments are directed at often aren't even batting an eyelash at it. People are getting offended *FOR * other people. People are getting offended over things that were not directed at them in conversations they weren't even involved. Meanwhile, the people involved in the conversation have no clue why this other person not involved in the conversation is so upset. There is a fine line between being welcoming and being forced to walk on eggshells because someone I don't know whom I'm not even talking to might get upset about something I say to someone I've known for years.


I see that. . .and you're right. Does it make sense? Maybe not. . . but it still happens. I'm not even talking about the OP any more -- as I said earlier, I think she's taken an extreme position. But for me, personally, there are a whole list of authors who post here *whose books I will never buy* because they've acted like all kinds of nasty on these boards.

If you* want to be Cruella deVille, that's your right -- within the board rules. But this is 100% public. And people reading here will be influenced to buy your stuff *or not* based on their perception of you. Maybe you truly don't care about that, and that's o.k. too. But, assuming you DO, why would you post in such a way as to potentially leave a BAD impression? 

I totally don't get that.



Adam Pepper said:


> People have every right to support who they want. It's really human nature to want to support people you like personally, and in the same respects, to not want to spend your money on the work of someone you dislike or who has rubbed you the wrong way. I think this is a byproduct of the internet and the exposure it gives. The ability to "see behind the curtain" if you will. I'd be willing to bet if you interacted with a lot of Hollywood types and held them to these standards, you'd never watch another movie.


And there are a number of hollywood types whose movies I won't go see because of the way they've behaved in public. Sure, they have a right to act that way, and I have a right to choose not to support them because of it. Maybe I missed a great movie. Oh well.

*generic "you", etc, etc.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Speak for yourself. I'm here to burn, rape, and pillage.


I'm here to destroy the emotional stability of any who cross my path. Think of me as the black cat of doom


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> But for me, personally, there are a whole list of authors who post here *whose books I will never buy* because they've acted like all kinds of nasty on these boards.


So, er, if I gave them to you, would you take them?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm here to destroy the emotional stability of any who cross my path. Think of me as the black cat of doom


Your avatar is white.

Oh, wait, that's another thread....

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So, er, if I gave them to you, would you take them?


No, but I would.


If anyone wants to know who's on Ann's list...I can be bought.

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> o/t warning to answer a question:
> 
> Typically:
> 
> ...


Hmm, okay. If you call someone a "native" among the Choctaws without the "American" attached, it's considered a slur because it implies a lack of sophistication. "The natives are getting restless" and that sort of thing. It smacks of "savages". And if I hear aboriginal, I think of Australians.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So, er, if I gave them to you, would you take them?


If one of the authors on my list wanted to give me their book for free, would I take it? I'd say that depends. There are a few I have such a poor opinion of that I probably wouldn't. And I'd tell 'em exactly why. The others. . . I might. . . .but I still might never read it.

The GOOD NEWS is that my list is in flux. There are only a very few who will never get off it. People can change and if they do, I may re-evaluate their place on my list.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I see that. . .and you're right. Does it make sense? Maybe not. . . but it still happens. I'm not even talking about the OP any more -- as I said earlier, I think she's taken an extreme position. But for me, personally, there are a whole list of authors who post here *whose books I will never buy* because they've acted like all kinds of nasty on these boards.
> 
> If you* want to be Cruella deVille, that's your right -- within the board rules. But this is 100% public. And people reading here will be influenced to buy your stuff *or not* based on their perception of you. Maybe you truly don't care about that, and that's o.k. too. But, assuming you DO, why would you post in such a way as to potentially leave a BAD impression?


Two requests:

1) Can we get a sticky thread with Ann's list?

2) Can we get a private forum for writers only so we can tear into each other's sh*t, er, I mean help each other succeed all day long.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> 2) Can we get a private forum for writers only so we can tear into each other's sh*t, er, I mean help each other succeed all day long.


I asked for that way back when and got shot down. Apparently, unbeknownst to us, this is a board for kindle users, not writers.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

NathanWrann said:


> Two requests:
> 
> 1) Can we get a sticky thread with Ann's list?


I can be bribed.



> 2) Can we get a private forum for writers only so we can tear into each other's sh*t, er, I mean help each other succeed all day long.


Um, no...  KindleBoards is a Kindle owners' forum. Have I mentioned that lately?  All members may have access everywhere. There is a members' only section that is rarely used. And, of course, all members have access there.

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Hmm, okay. If you call someone a "native" among the Choctaws without the "American" attached, it's considered a slur because it implies a lack of sophistication. "The natives are getting restless" and that sort of thing. It smacks of "savages". And if I hear aboriginal, I think of Australians.


That's because different countries have different cultures, customs, and different usages of language. Just because we're next door, doesn't mean we're the same


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'm here to destroy the emotional stability of any who cross my path. Think of me as the black cat of doom


That reminds me. The Berserker's never had a cage match with a hell-spawned, fang-dripping vampire cat. Any takers?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> That's because different countries have different cultures, customs, and different usages of language. Just because we're next door, doesn't mean we're the same


Duh...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> That reminds me. The Berserker's never had a cage match with a hell-spawned, fang-dripping vampire cat. Any takers?


You wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> That reminds me. The Berserker's never had a cage match with a hell-spawned, fang-dripping vampire cat. Any takers?


Sorry, but my money would be on Krista.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Sorry, but my money would be on Krista.


Yeah, she'd cheat.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You wouldn't stand a chance.


Now this is turning into a pissing match


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Is not!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, she'd cheat.


That's exactly what I'm afraid of. 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Sorry, but my money would be on Krista.


Looks like the fix is in already.


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Yeah, she'd cheat.


She wouldn't have to.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Gregory Lynn said:


> She wouldn't have to.


I have a book of necronamic spells that will bind her tongue and leave her singing the "Happy Happy Joy Joy" song. I like my odds.


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Being a guy, I have absolutely no idea what this is all about.  I'm just going to wander through unshaven, shuffling in my sweats, grab a cinnamon roll, sniff and walk back out.  I'm lost, and of course when I'm lost I don't ask for directions, so you'll see me in the corners frowning at rubber tree plants.


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> I have a book of necronamic spells that will bind her tongue and leave her foaming at the mouth. I like my odds.


Foaming at the mouth? That's just her getting warmed up.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Gregory Lynn said:


> Foaming at the mouth? That's just her getting warmed up.


That's why I edited my post to make her sing the Happy Happy Joy Joy Song. Much more debilitating.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> I have a book of necronamic spells that will bind her tongue and leave her singing the "Happy Happy Joy Joy" song. I like my odds.


I have a visual of Krista beating you with a mace while singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" and I think, yeah, that is about right.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a visual of Krista beating you with a mace while singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" and I think, yeah, that is about right.


Why do I get the impression that when it's over, you'll walk up and say "FINISH HIM!" right before the Mortal Kombat theme song plays for her victory celebration?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Kent Kelly said:


> Being a guy, I have absolutely no idea what this is all about. I'm just going to wander through unshaven, shuffling in my sweats, grab a cinnamon roll, sniff and walk back out. I'm lost, and of course when I'm lost I don't ask for directions, so you'll see me in the corners frowning at rubber tree plants.


Well put a shirt on. That back hair is disgusting...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a visual of Krista beating you with a mace while singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" and I think, yeah, that is about right.


Does it look like this?


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## TwillyJune (May 25, 2012)

_I am DONE with indie books. Over, caput. Will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever dip my toe in that utter cesspool of hateful people again. Congratulations: the Writer's Cafe has made me decide to read elsewhere.

We may not post in there, as readers, but we do read the threads. Be aware that we (your customers) do take note of what transpires in there. _

Ok, Iris, I take issue with your entire post. You just tarred and feathered a whole group of authors who work very hard at what they do, and all because of a shooting match that took place and offended your sensibilities, even though, as I understand things, you were just a drive-by reader. And then, like Lucy Ricardo, you sort of vaulted yourself into the grape vat when it came to expressing your displeasure. Well, we all know what happened to poor Lucy. A coveted movie role went by the wayside, because she incited a grape riot and ended up looking like a prettier version of Barney.

Don't let this happen to you. People fight. And fights turn nasty. It happens in the best of forums because we're really a bunch of Lucy Ricardo's running into each other trying to make a fine wine out of squishing the grape. Sometimes people don't like the way I squish my grapes. I have a tendency to dance through the grapes, whereas others are very methodical. I have a tendency to walk at a snail's pace, enjoying the scenery, as it were, chatting up my friends, while other's march silently and at a speed that gets the job done. Sometimes particles of grapes fly up and smack me square in the face, but instead of me accusing my fellow grape whisperers of deliberately sabotaging my face with their feet, I savor the flavor, then squat down and stuff my face with more. Sometimes a grape-walker will have a bad day, and end up flinging pieces of grapes everywhere just to get it off their chest. Sometimes, another person, having an equally bad day, won't take that lying down, and before you know it a food fight happens. Best to stay out of it, if you're an observer, and most of all don't judge a book by its cover, at least in this instance.

I do hope you will reconsider your original post, because there are many fine books being written by indie authors! My other suggestion would be for you to read the threads that whole-heartedly support Hugh Howey as he climbs the ladder of success. We're all right behind him, not to pass him up, but to support him if he slips or falls, or runs into a roadblock.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a visual of Krista beating you with a mace while singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" and I think, yeah, that is about right.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

TwillyJune said:


> _I am DONE with indie books. Over, caput. Will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever dip my toe in that utter cesspool of hateful people again. Congratulations: the Writer's Cafe has made me decide to read elsewhere.
> 
> We may not post in there, as readers, but we do read the threads. Be aware that we (your customers) do take note of what transpires in there. _
> 
> ...


Great, now I'm in the mood for a nice Cabernet...


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I have a visual of Krista beating you with a mace while singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" and I think, yeah, that is about right.







Only vaguely related, but funny.

I always envision her as more of a bitter, cynical Buffy, myself. With the eerie singsong voice of one of the creepy kid-things from Bioshock. _"I'm ready to get Lil' Stabby all bloody, Mister B..."_


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I saw Neil Gaiman speak a few months ago, and he talked about how sometimes he meets people who are REALLY interesting and cool, then he reads their books, and the books are meh. Conversely, boring or unlikeable people can produce great work.

So ... that's why I try to not be too interesting outside my books.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I've been told I'm jolly, happy, smily.

I've also been told, after I broke up a fight at the homeless drop by standing between a bloody man and a rival gang member that I am very, very scary when I'm threatened. (I've told that story here before, haven't I?)

But, this is also me


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

TwillyJune said:


> My other suggestion would be for you to read the threads that whole-heartedly support Hugh Howey as he climbs the ladder of success. We're all right behind him, not to pass him up, but to support him if he slips or falls, or runs into a roadblock.


There is not a smilie available for me to express my reaction to this statement.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I've been told I'm jolly, happy, smily.
> 
> I've also been told, after I broke up a fight at the homeless drop by standing between a bloody man and a rival gang member that I am very, very scary when I'm threatened. (I've told that story here before, haven't I?)
> 
> ...


Nice video but I would have preferred to see you breaking up the fight.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm struggling to think of an example of the authors on here laying, un-prompted, into another author.  Generally, the only time people criticise someone's work is if that person has either specifically asked for that criticism - or has posted to complain about lack of sales, or getting a one star review (in which case, people tend to post the reasons why readers might not like the work - but it's generally done in a spirit of trying to either help the writer or defend the reviewer.)  Most authors know that getting truthful feedback is often very difficult, and they really appreciate the honesty of the posters on here.

That said, the OP has the right to decide whatever she wants.  She's posted to say why she feels like she does - there are probably others who have felt the same but said nothing.  If you look at her posting history, she's a genuine poster, she's not someone who just popped in to cause trouble.  I wouldn't come to the conclusions that she appears to have reached, but it's a reminder to us all that everyone views things differently.

I usually only bite if someone appears to be selling a product, service, or concept that: (a) is unethical or (b) could potentially harm other authors.  I'll also occasionally step in and speak up in defence of someone if I feel they're being unfairly got at.  I know I've probably trodden on a couple of toes in the process, but some things are important enough to me to warrant speaking up anyway.  I try to do what I feel is right, and I accept that sometimes there are consequences for doing that.  I'd be sorry if anything I've said contributed to all indie authors being thought of as beyond redemption - but I can't control the strength of someone else's reaction.  All I can do is behave in what I think is the right way - and try to abide by forum rules in the process!  (I did get my wrist slapped once for challenging the business model of that guy who was on here trying to sell reviews!)


----------



## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> OK, let's just say it is Julie's fault and be done with it. I accept full responsibility. And while I couldn't really care if someone I don't know in the
> And for the gentlemen:


This is the first time where I have wanted to hear of what you have to say! Bahahaha. JK

The gents say thank you for taking the time to post.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I'm struggling to think of an example of the authors on here laying, un-prompted, into another author.


I could give you an example or two.  But fortunately, it doesn't happen often. We do keep the stocks cleaned and polished just in case...


Betsy


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I could give you an example or two.  But fortunately, it doesn't happen often. We do keep the stocks cleaned and polished just in case...
> 
> 
> Betsy


And the cattle prod is always charged...


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I could give you an example or two.  But fortunately, it doesn't happen often. We do keep the stocks cleaned and polished just in case...
> 
> 
> Betsy


I don't read every thread - so it's possible I've missed something. 

Watching a two-year-old, it can take me two hours just to write a reply to a thread!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

intinst said:


> And the cattle prod is always charged...


There is that...


Betsy


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There is that...
> 
> 
> Betsy


I do recall that being used on me before (more than once). Not sure I deserved it. Then again...


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There is that...
> 
> 
> Betsy


Wait, this isn't another erotica thread is it?


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I don't read every thread - so it's possible I've missed something.


You might have "not read" something, but I don't think you "missed" anything. 



MichaelWallace said:


> Wait, this isn't another erotica thread is it?


Depends on whether sicklove clicks on it or not...


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

The OP is full of it. The post is a vague generalization about a group of authors over an event no one has a clue what she is referring to. The post was just an excuse to spit on Indie Authors, and quite frankly, I wish it had been removed by the Mods. If there were any validity to it, _somebody_ would know what she's referring to. People are starting to come into this forum with the sole intent putting us down and turn us against one another. I've seen this sort of thing on other forums for various reasons, including on a forum I helped run myself for years. I hope the Mods are on guard for this sort of thing and won't let it get out of hand. The Writer's Cafe is a haven for authors where we shouldn't have to tolerate this sort of thing. It only sidetracks us from the real purpose of this forum.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> The Writer's Cafe is a haven for authors where we shouldn't have to tolerate this sort of thing. It only sidetracks us from the real purpose of this forum.


Yeah! What the hell, people? Can't we all just ogle cute guys and talk about chocolate like we used to?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok, I'm going to cause Betsy to sigh.

I'm pretty sure this is about the Hugh thread, based on the brand new poster with only 2 posts.   Several people commented that Hugh should stop commenting, linking and focusing on his 1 star reviews, and should have one mega thread of Hugh Greatness Inc (HGI). Several others accused those involved of being jealous of HGI and some tempers flared and whatnot. 

I wasn't directly involved in that thread, since I'd already said my piece to Hugh a couple weeks prior, he'd replied, and I had nothing left to contribute. Others, however, did have some frustrations and concerns. Was it the appropriate place to vent them? Some felt it was, others felt it wasn't.

Regardless, the discussion caused some hard feelings for a bit as the accusations of jealousy, coattail riding, sour grapes, and brown nosing hit the crescendo. 

These things happen. The Writer's Cafe really isn't a "haven". It's a place to ask questions, discuss success and failures, and to poor resources. It's a place (in theory) where readers can chat with authors. It's not a place where everyone needs to either agree or be silent. It's not a clubhouse. It's a public place where people. And, like any public place, people are going to disagree and vent frustrations. The mods attempt to keep it level as much as they can, but it happens every few months. Just like in every.single.group out there.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Greg Banks said:


> The OP is full of it. The post is a vague generalization about a group of authors over an event no one has a clue what she is referring to. The post was just an excuse to spit on Indie Authors, and quite frankly, I wish it had been removed by the Mods. If there were any validity to it, _somebody_ would know what she's referring to. People are starting to come into this forum with the sole intent putting us down and turn us against one another. I've seen this sort of thing on other forums for various reasons, including on a forum I helped run myself for years. I hope the Mods are on guard for this sort of thing and won't let it get out of hand. The Writer's Cafe is a haven for authors where we shouldn't have to tolerate this sort of thing. It only sidetracks us from the real purpose of this forum.


I knew immediately what Iris was referring to, frankly. But, as I said, I can think of at least three threads recently that she _could_ have been referring to. The thread was allowed because I think it's fair enough that Café members know how some of these threads affect readers. Just as you are allowed to respond.

The Café does not belong to the authors. It is part of KindleBoards, a forum for Kindle owners, and all members are welcome to post their thoughts here, subject to Forum Decorum.

(And Krista, you'll have to try harder to make me sigh.)

Betsy


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> But their parents and aunts and big sisters are. . . and they're the ones who actually have the money to spend. Seems like it's not smart to antagonize them.


How exactly are we antognizing people by helping each other out? People who take offense do it because of a personality trait they have. Almost anything will be reason enough for them to do it. Shoot, David Dalglish picked on me a few times and I hope no one would consider not buying his books. I even promote his book on a Squiddo thread even if we don't get along. I don't like being threatened by "potential" readers, which is one reason I don't go into other parts of Kindleboards very often. My books speak for themselves.

Ann, the Writers' Cafe is for the authors. We're helping each other here. I don't come in here to sell books. I'm a perfectly nice person who comes here to interact with other authors and I, for one, am not going to second guess whether I lost a reader because they took something out of context (which frankly, is what is happening if they don't bother to see how we _do_ support each other even through the snarkiness of a bad day) here in the "Writers' Cafe".


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The Café does not belong to the authors. It is part of KindleBoards, a forum for Kindle owners, and all members are welcome to post their thoughts here, subject to Forum Decorum.


Betsy, thank you for pointing this out. One thing that I find disappointing about the Cafe is that readers really don't come in here and post, beyond Atunah and a few others. I've seen Atunah, especially, ripped to pieces for giving her thoughts as a reader. It's rather discouraging.


----------



## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

Greg Banks said:


> The OP is full of it. The post is a vague generalization about a group of authors over an event no one has a clue what she is referring to. The post was just an excuse to spit on Indie Authors, and quite frankly, I wish it had been removed by the Mods. If there were any validity to it, _somebody_ would know what she's referring to. People are starting to come into this forum with the sole intent putting us down and turn us against one another.


I agree with Greg. It felt like a drive-by, just like the recent 'erotic writers not welcomed' thread.

Get some drama going, throw in vague accusations so everyone starts looking around, toss hate labels, then project enough to burn, while finally slamming the whole group. Thanks goodness this thread moved nicely into some humor and fake fighting.

These kind of posters are just looking to be fed in a particular way, maybe testing out new feeding grounds. We should just let them pass on through.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Ann, the Writers' Cafe is for the authors. We're helping each other here. I don't come in here to sell books. I'm a perfectly nice person who comes here to interact with other authors and I, for one, am not going to second guess whether I lost a reader because they took something out of context (which frankly, is what is happening if they don't bother to see how we do support each other even through the snarkiness of a bad day) here in the "Writers' Cafe".


Actually, the WC was designed as a place for writers to connect with each other AND with readers. A place where writers could discuss craft, marketing, response to reviews, etc, with each other while also discussing questions of what people like/don't like in e-books with writers and readers. Note: no place on KB is off-limits to any member, so assuming that everyone posting here is a writer is not the best idea.

Please note: I do not agree with the original poster in this thread, but merely want to remind everyone that nothing is private on the internet, and all members can read all threads. And that no matter what you say, some people will agree, some people will disagree, and then there's just Krista...


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Because I love ponies.

B.


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Betsy, thank you for pointing this out. One thing that I find disappointing about the Cafe is that readers really don't come in here and post, beyond Atunah and a few others. I've seen Atunah, especially, ripped to pieces for giving her thoughts as a reader. It's rather discouraging.


There are those of us who want to, but I'm not as brave as Atunah.  I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I agree with the OP! I was deeply offended when someone said something they shouldn't have said about something they shouldn't have said something about. I'm not saying _who _ said it, and I'm not saying _what _ they said or _when _ they said it. I'm not even going to say whether it was said to me directly, said to something else, or just implied by what they said to me or to someone else-or whether it was an intended or unintended implication of what they said to me or to someone else, but may not have consciously meant.

I'm not even going to say _in what way _ I was offended.

But let me tell you, I'm not going to buy their books and/or merchandise (should that eventuality arise) because I'm so offended in a way I can't specify that I can't stand to discuss it beyond stating it in these terms: Part of my soul is now missing because someone said or implied, intentionally or unintentionally, something so horrible that I can no more bear to repeat or identify it than I can stand to live with it.

Moreover, I blame you all for it. You should've hired some "pre-cogs" like they did in that documentary, _Minority Report_. That way you could've avoided wrecking my life by preventing the thing that so upset me before it happened.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

crebel said:


> I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


Who are you?

ETA: Oh, yeah. You shot the deputy. Was he ignoring you?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

crebel said:


> There are those of us who want to, but I'm not as brave as Atunah.  I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


I know


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I know





Jeff said:


> Who are you?
> 
> ETA: Oh, yeah. You shot the deputy. Was he ignoring you?


Note to self: Krista and Jeff did not ignore me - don't shoot them.


----------



## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Because I love ponies.
> 
> B.


Nice try, but I don't think it worked.


----------



## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

George Berger said:


> Yeah! What the hell, people? Can't we all just ogle cute guys and talk about chocolate like we used to?


*hands george some chocolate*

oh, and for the record I AM NOT AN AUTHOR! I just work for some...

and crebel, don't forget....


Spoiler



indiana wants me...


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Moreover, I blame you all for it. You should've hired some "pre-cogs" like they did in that documentary, _Minority Report_. That way you could've avoided wrecking my life by preventing the thing that so upset me before it happened.


Physician, heed thy own advice. If _you_ had a pre-cog, they could have told you that we were going to wreck your life, and you could have not read whatever it was about something or other by that person who offended you. Problem solved.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm going to shoot all of you.  *looks for slingshot*

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

crebel said:


> There are those of us who want to, but I'm not as brave as Atunah.  I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


If you want attention, here's whatcha do. Start a thread named "Why your writing sucks" and post reviews of the books of the authors who frequent these boards. That would be AWSOME! It would be the most popular thread on here if you gave honest reviews. Now THAT would no doubt make Betsy sigh.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

vrabinec said:


> If you want attention, here's whatcha do. Start a thread named "Why your writing sucks" and post reviews of the books of the authors who frequent these boards. That would be AWSOME! It would be the most popular thread on here if you gave honest reviews. Now THAT would no doubt make Betsy sigh.


Actually, I think it would turn Betsy into a mass murderer...at least that's what the pre-cogs told me...


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

If this is the Writers' and Readers' Cafe, why isn't it named this?

If readers are going to do vague Kamakzi hits in here, like the OP, and call it interacting with authors-no thank you. There are enough readers slamming all indie authors out in the main Kindleboards area and over at Amazon. Frankly, I come in here to get away from the "one indie did something I don't like so now I hate all indies" mentality. 
I wish Ann or Betsy had removed the thread in the first place.
I'll move on to a place where I can just hang with authors' experiencing the ups and downs of publishing.

If readers want to come in and actually *interact*, great!

WHDean - I love your post!


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

telracs said:


> oh, and for the record I AM NOT AN AUTHOR! I just work for some...


Ha. I think you mean some authors work for you.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

OP is entitled to her opinion, to share that opinion in WC and to spend her monies wherever and on whatever she pleases and if that not going to be self-published authors' books, so be it. I can't change or influence on how other people behave and I don't want to, everybody is adult enough to know what they are doing, especially in WC. Right?

But I have to say that I find it interesting that whenever trade published writer makes a buttocks of himself/herself, readers usually say, I'm not going to read that author anymore, but when an self-published writer does something similar, readers say, I'm not going to read self-published authors anymore.



crebel said:


> I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


Don't worry about that, it happens to me all the time. You get used to is soon.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> If you want attention, here's whatcha do. Start a thread named "Why your writing sucks" and post reviews of the books of the authors who frequent these boards. That would be AWSOME! It would be the most popular thread on here if you gave honest reviews. Now THAT would no doubt make Betsy sigh.


Make Betsy sigh? She'd whip out her trust taser so fast...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If this is the Writers' and Readers' Cafe, why isn't it named this?


This is what it says at the top of the Café:



> Writers' Cafe
> Come in, grab a cup of coffee and chat with our authors.


It doesn't say "Authors, come in and chat."

Sorry if you misunderstood, Lisa.

Betsy


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Katie Salidas said:


> Nice try, but I don't think it worked.


This place truly is a cesspit. 

B.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> Make Betsy sigh? She'd whip out her trusty taser so fast...


I love my taser....

Betsy


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Physician, heed thy own advice. If _you_ had a pre-cog, they could have told you that we were going to wreck your life, and you could have not read whatever it was about something or other by that person who offended you. Problem solved.


Do you know why I know goats have square irises? _Because your goat stares at me through my bedroom window every night! _

Yeah. That's right. It's out in the open now. Everyone listen up and be warned:

*George Berger uses a genetically modified super-goat to intimidate authors (and editors and moderators) that make him mad. That's why he posts here with impunity.*

I won't live in fear anymore!

ETA: George Berger now uses mind control to cause typos. I recommend a tinfoil hat.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

What's a supper-goat?


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

WHDean said:


> *George Berger uses a genetically modified supper-goat to intimidate authors (and editors and moderators) that make him mad. That's why he posts here with impunity.*


Was that supposed to upset me? Sorry, my tame pre-cog told me you were going to say that.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

WHDean said:


> Do you know why I know goats have square irises? _Because your goat stares at me through my bedroom window every night! _
> 
> Yeah. That's right. It's out in the open now. Everyone listen up and be warned:
> 
> ...


So the lunch goat is for intimidating the readers? Darn it, Jeff beat me to the mouthy comment...


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Jeff said:


> What's a supper-goat?












Straight onto the plate.

B.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Ok, I got as far as page 2 and then I saw this:



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


>


Now I can't remember what we were talking about.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This is what it says at the top of the Café:
> 
> It doesn't say "Authors, come in and chat."
> 
> ...


Coming in and saying, "I'm not buying anymore Indie authors" is not chatting. The title "Writers' Cafe" implies there are authors in here to chat with. It implies this is where we are, which is why the reader is invited to join us. That won't be the case if all readers do is make the statement the OP did. 
I actually "pay" money to help support Kindleboards as many authors here do. I know I won't earn back what I put into it, but I do it because I do appreciate what Harvey does for authors and readers.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Coming in and saying, "I'm not buying anymore Indie authors" is not chatting. The title "Writers Cafe" implies there are authors in here to chat with. It implies this is where we are, which is why the reader is invited ti join us. That won't be the case if all readers do is make the statement the OP did.


It's no different than the authors here saying "I only buy indie" when there are plenty of us who have trad titles


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Atunah said:


> The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


I have a theory that only invisible people can see one another *waves*


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Did somebody say something?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Caitie Quinn said:


> I have a theory that only invisible people can see one another *waves*


*waves back*

Its magic, I tell you


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Atunah said:


> The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


You've been using my invisible ink keyboard again!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Monique said:


> You've been using my invisible ink keyboard again!


Darn it, you caught me. . Can I blame all my typos on that?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Atunah said:


> The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


Hi Atunah.
I'm not sure it was a good idea to move the thread in here. It's not an author friendly one and certainly does nothing to improve relations between indies and readers.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

Monique said:


> You've been using my invisible ink keyboard again!


Monique isn't invisible, but she has the special glasses.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Atunah said:


> The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


You're not invisible, you're _transparent_. 



> "And these are your reasons, my lord?"
> "Do you think I have others?" said Lord Vetinari. "My motives, as ever, are entirely transparent."
> Hughnon reflected that 'entirely transparent' meant either that you could see right through them or that you couldn't see them at all.


(Terry Pratchett, The Truth)


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Atunah said:


> Darn it, you caught me. . Can I blame all my typos on that?


I know I do!


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Hi Atunah.
> I'm not sure it was a good idea to move the thread in here. It's not an author friendly one and certainly does nothing to improve relations between indies and readers.


who says all threads here have to be "author friendly"? as betsy says, the OP is entitled to her opinion (which i don't agree with, as i've said), but she is talking about authors and it is a good thing for you to think about. how your post on an internet thread can be read and interpreted (or misinterpreted).

And basically, if you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it. It's your choice what you want to spend your time worrying about. And I'm going to spend my time worrying about how to steal more of Julie's Godiva Liquer and when Jeff is going to send me his next book to proof.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Coming in and saying, "I'm not buying anymore Indie authors" is not chatting. The title "Writers' Cafe" implies there are authors in here to chat with. It implies this is where we are, which is why the reader is invited toi join us. That won't be the case if all readers do is make the statement the OP did.
> I actually "pay" money to help support Kindleboards as many authors here do. I know I won't earn back what I put into it, but I do it because I do appreciate what Harvey does for authors and readers.


I like it when someone comes in here and stirs up poo with a post like that. It's invariably the most entertaining thread of the day. We post stuff about readers all the time, much of it uncomplementary, so what's wrong with readers coming in here and giving us the finger every now and then? Some of us aren't the nicest of people and deserve it, and I throw myself into that category. The OP's disgusted because she got a glimpse of the true nature of some authors, and I think that's cool. I happen to prefer the authors with the disgusting nature because they entertain me, but I would never begrudge a reader the satisfation of marching in here and upon seeing that nature, announcing her revulsion. That said, I did want a private room for authors only, so we could talk about editors and reviewrs behind their backs without it becomeing a permanent post on the internet, but there are places I can go to do that, so this works for me.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Hi Atunah.
> I'm not sure it was a good idea to move the thread in here. It's not an author friendly one and certainly does nothing to improve relations between indies and readers.


You jest. Lots of stuff posted in here, by authors, does nothing to improve relations.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Hi Atunah.
> I'm not sure it was a good idea to move the thread in here. It's not an author friendly one and certainlydoes nothing to improve relations between indies and readers.


I don't agree with the original post, but apparently the mods felt since the sentiment was about posts in the Cafe, it should be here. That seems reasonable to me. Do you think readers should be quiet and not let the writers here know how they feel unless it is praise?

She is one member of 60,000+ who was upset and decided to make her feelings known. Don't tar the rest of the KB non-author members with the same brush she used.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Atunah said:


> You jest. Lots of stuff posted in here, by authors, does nothing to improve relations.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

crebel said:


> There are those of us who want to, but I'm not as brave as Atunah.  I occasionally dip my toes in the water and am subsequently ignored.


I've noticed that new authors dropping occasional posts into the middle of a thread generally get ignored, too. That's the way internet forums tend to work: all the people who've been around awhile know one another and tend to talk to one another. They're friends, and they have a history. Unless you have a huge personality and make a big splash when you first show up, it takes quite awhile for people to get to know you and to start including you. It's normal and natural. Real-life communities tend to work that way, too. You have to have enough confidence to keep participating until you become a familiar face and get integrated into the group.

Now can we please shut this thread down? I keep coming back and reading it instead of working on my book ... sheesh!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

crebel said:


> Do you think readers should be quiet and not let the writers here know how they feel unless it is praise?


There are plenty of people who believe that way. Look at how many posts are about the emotional devastation a person is feeling after a 1 star review, and how quickly the reviewer is ganged up on.

Myself? Hate my work all you want, just make sure you buy it all


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

crebel said:


> She is one member of 60,000+ who was upset and decided to make her feelings known. Don't tar the rest of the KB non-author members with the same brush she used.


Indeed. . . . much of the initial complaint about the OP was that it was tarring all indie authors with the same brush. 



> You jest. Lots of stuff posted in here, by authors, does nothing to improve relations.


It sometimes seems to me that most of what's posted here by authors is designed to sour relations.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Atunah said:


> The OP didn't come into the Writers Cafe, she posted the thread in the non kindle forum and it was moved here. But I already said that up thread and of course I am usually invisible. That might explain why some think readers only lurk here.


I hope you're not assuming you're invisible just because someone hasn't responded to every comment you've made. In some cases, after all, there's simply nothing more to say. For my part, I try to respond to or thank everyone who responded in a thread I've started that asks for input. Many people don't. But I wouldn't assume that others don't read every comment, even though I think they should thank all who provided input (which, again, doesn't always happen).


----------



## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Hate my work all you want, just make sure you buy it all


I like this attitude.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Myself? Hate my work all you want, just make sure you buy it all


This isn't self promotion is it?  

Betsy


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Oh snap...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This isn't self promotion is it?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

telracs said:


> who says all threads here have to be "author friendly"? as betsy says, the OP is entitled to her opinion (which i don't agree with, as i've said), but she is talking about authors and it is a good thing for you to think about. how your post on an internet thread can be read and interpreted (or misinterpreted).
> 
> And basically, if you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it. It's your choice what you want to spend your time worrying about. And I'm going to spend my time worrying about how to steal more of Julie's Godiva Liquer and when Jeff is going to send me his next book to proof.


Writers' Cafe not "author friendly" really? Is that the new goal? A place where readers come in and snark at authors about all the things they dislike about indies/trades?
Wow.
I disagree. How is a threat that "they're not going to buy anymore indie books" *anything more than mean-spirited* to those of us authors who do nothing but support other authors? 
If I want those kind of conversations, they are not hard to find anywhere on the internet. If this is going to be a new policy change, it is not going to help the Writers' Cafe. I'll stop buying advertising (several hundred a year), and go somewhere else. 
I thought the general Kindleboards area was where it was okay to slam authors, not inside the Writers' Cafe. Betsy, I'm sorry I misunderstood. I don't complain when they do it in the general Kindleboards area, (which is where authors lurk to find out what readers think), but no, I don't think chatting with authors is on the same level as one reader slamming all indies, and no it doesn't need to be in here.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> There are plenty of people who believe that way. Look at how many posts are about the emotional devastation a person is feeling after a 1 star review, and how quickly the reviewer is ganged up on.


Actually, I haven't seen anyone say that. I've never seen an author on here say that reviewers shouldn't post a review unless it's a positive one. I've seen complaints about 1 star reviews that don't make sense such as the ones that accuse the author of making up THOUSANDS of sock pupets to review his book, or the ones that say the book was well written, but give it a 1 star anyway, or the ones that say they gave it a 1 star because it wasn't for them, but they'll recommend it to friends who might like it, or the ones that give it a 1 star because the book wasn't a romance when the blurb clearly states the book's a thriller. And maybe authors are asking too much, to ask that someone who reviews a book makes sense, because, after all, the reviewer isn't necessarily a writer and maybe can't express themselves all that clearly. But whenever a review hits an author hard that seems to have some ulterior motive behind it, or something else that isn't a "The writing is stilted, I got bored halfway through, the dialogue wasn't believable. Don't waste your money" which I think all authors EXPECT to get at some point and can accept, then the author reacts.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

there is no place where it is okay to slam authors.  if you have a problem with the post, report it to the moderators... oh, wait, they are here and have made their feelings known.....

if you don't like it, stop reading the thread.  why get yourself upset over what a couple of people are saying, since according to you, they're not your audience?  

and since this is just going around in circles, i'm going to take my own advice.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I've noticed that new authors dropping occasional posts into the middle of a thread generally get ignored, too.


Yep Crebel - if it helps, I've been here (posting in the cafe) for over a year and I still occasionally feel that I'm posting into the void! I think we all feel like that at times & it probably depends on what kind of day we're having. 

As for whether the post should be in here or not - I for one would much rather know what people think and how they feel. Even if I don't agree with it - heck, sometimes _especially_ if I don't agree with it! I don't think we do ourselves any favours if we try to convince ourselves that everyone sees the world exactly as we do.

I studied NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and we did an excercise where we all broke down the process we went through to get up in the morning - the order of events. Do you start out with a feeling, or an image in your mind, or speaking to yourself in your head? What next? We then shared with the others & it was really interesting to see how differently people approached the same thing. Some might be 'image, image, voice, action' - others 'feeling, voice, action' - and all sorts of other variations. People are quite fascinating really.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I've never seen an author on here say that reviewers shouldn't post a review unless it's a positive one.


I have. I was also here for the KB assault squad who descended on a poor reviewer for getting a fact wrong in a review.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

telracs said:


> there is no place where it is okay to slam authors. if you have a problem with the post, report it to the moderators... oh, wait, they are here and have made their feelings known.....
> 
> if you don't like it, stop reading the thread. why get yourself upset over what a couple of people are saying, since according to you, they're not your audience?
> 
> and since this is just going around in circles, i'm going to take my own advice.


Hah! Ten bucks says you come back. Threads like this are like crack....


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Becca Mills said:


> Now can we please shut this thread down? I keep coming back and reading it instead of working on my book ... sheesh!


According to the Mods, someone has to say something nasty first. And all this time, I thought all I had to do was make a single post in a thread to make them bring out the old padlock. I must be losing my touch.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Actually, our preference is to not have anyone slam anyone...and perhaps I should have edited the initial post when I moved it to take out the worst of the assessments of the WC.  If so, it wouldn't be the first mistake I've ever made and won't be the last.  It's a judgment call every day.  

Note that no one said the Writers' Café should not be author friendly; just that not every thread has to be positive.  And frequently aren't.  I've seen many threads where authors slam other authors.  And we usually cut them off as WHOAs.  This was a thread about something that happened here on KindleBoards.  Thought y'all would like to know, however poorly the initial post might have stated it.

Bear in mind at the time the thread was moved here, I had no idea that Iris wouldn't be back to respond.  And I don't know for sure why she hasn't been.  There certainly is no incentive at this point for her to join the thread.

Betsy


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Bear in mind at the time the thread was moved here, I had no idea that Iris wouldn't be back to respond. And I don't know for sure why she hasn't been. There certainly is no incentive at this point for her to join the thread.


Um...did you, like, ask her before you moved the thread here?

B.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Um...ask her what?  If she would be back?

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Bear in mind at the time the thread was moved here, I had no idea that Iris wouldn't be back to respond.


Iris? Who's Iris? We don't wanna talk about Iris, we wanna talk about us.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

This might be premature, and I haven't slept in a long time and thus my sensibilities might be off, but..

WEIRDEST THREAD EVAH!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Iris? Who's Iris? We don't wanna talk about Iris, we wanna talk about us.


And you're doing a fine job of it.


Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I have. I was also here for the KB assault squad who descended on a poor reviewer for getting a fact wrong in a review.


Is it too much to ask that a reviewer get the facts right?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

telracs - I don't just speak for me, I also speak for the authors who are sending me emails of support. I'm speaking for a faction of authors. I have lots of reader/friends on a variety of forums. I tend to avoid places that slam authors. Authors having disagreements with other authors on the state of publishing and marketing great, that's mainly what we get here, and yes, some get snarky. But none of them threaten not to buy the whole groups' books.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Um...ask her what? If she would be back?
> 
> Betsy


No, if she wanted this thread dipped in said cesspool. I could imagine her coming home from work and being quite surprised is all.



daveconifer said:


> This might be premature, and I haven't slept in a long time and thus my sensibilities might be off, but..
> 
> WEIRDEST THREAD EVAH!












B.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Um...did you, like, ask her before you moved the thread here?
> 
> B.


Seriously! Iris is probably off somewhere being utterly horrified that what she intended as venting to a bunch of other readers got sucked into the WC and is causing an authorial Mt. Pinatubo over here. No wonder she hasn't been back to post in the thread.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, this thread stopped being fun.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Cinnamon rolls, anyone?










or maybe a hot cocoa, filled with love and compassion and understanding?










Or should I just get ZE WHIP out?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

B. Justin Shier said:


> No, if she wanted this thread dipped in said cesspool. I could imagine her coming home from work and being quite surprised is all.


Well, actually, it was initially posted in the Book Bazaar here. I believed, as I do when authors post author-support type questions in the Book Bazaar, that she intended to post it in the Writers' Café. It happens quite often, as the Writers' Café child board is listed at the top of the Book Bazaar.

I'm not concerned about moving it here; I believe if it was going to be anywhere, this is the place.

Betsy


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> This was a thread about something that happened here on KindleBoards. Thought y'all would like to know, however poorly the initial post might have stated it.


Actually, I'm sort of glad you moved the thread here and left it unmodified because it's a good reminder how many eyes are reading our posts. I often get so used to author talk in the WC that I forget how many readers also check out this part of the forum. It's hard to remember sometimes that the majority of KBers are not super vocal but they do exist and are following the discussions, even if they're not being loudmouths like the rest of us.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Becca Mills said:


> Seriously! Iris is probably off somewhere being utterly horrified that what she intended as venting to a bunch of other readers got sucked into the WC and is causing an authorial Mt. Pinatubo over here. No wonder she hasn't been back to post in the thread.





Iris said:


> *Be aware that we (your customers) *do take note of what transpires in there.


Doesn't sound like she's only talking to readers to me.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I don't know either exactly which thread has caused this visceral reaction. However, while I think the OP's position is a bit extreme, she is 100% entitled to it as a human being. And she's not wrong: I've seen a fair bit of rather nasty, bullying behavior in the Cafe over the last 4 years. And remember, even if it happened a year ago or more, the thread is still there and liable to influence people. We moderators do a lot of saving you from yourselves by deleting the worst bits.


Oh yeah. I shudder to think what I would be if it were not for Betsy. Why, I'd be completely oblivious to decorum, to the proper way to hold my teacup, and God knows if I ever got nasty with another writer, no one would ever want to read my books again.

What utter balderdash. I can save myself, thank you very much.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I think moving it here was perfectly fine. *shrugs.
I only mentioned the moving as the OP was characterized as a drive by and what was the other word, Kamikaze. 

But she is neither, at least not based on her other interactions with the board. That includes her interaction right here in the Cafe where she initiated dialogue with writers recently.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

MikeAngel said:


> Oh yeah. I shudder to think what I would be if it were not for Betsy. Why, I'd be completely oblivious to decorum, to the proper way to hold my teacup, and God knows if I ever got nasty with another writer, no one would ever want to read my books again.
> 
> What utter balderdash. I can save myself, thank you very much.


You need a lesson in manners.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> No, if she wanted this thread dipped in said cesspool. I could imagine her coming home from work and being quite surprised is all.


I'm pretty sure she knew it would be read by authors since her last lines were:
_We may not post in there, as readers, but we do read the threads. Be aware that we (your customers) do take note of what transpires in there. _

She walked in the room, flipped us off and left. Barvo, good for her. And having the familiarity with authors she claims she has after having read in WC, she had to know the reaction. I hardly think she'll be surprised at all.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MikeAngel said:


> Oh yeah. I shudder to think what I would be if it were not for Betsy. Why, I'd be completely oblivious to decorum, to the proper way to hold my teacup, and God knows if I ever got nasty with another writer, no one would ever want to read my books again.


Mike, I know you're working on that teacup holding thing...here's a photo to remind you:










Betsy


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## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> telracs - I don't just speak for me, I also speak for the authors who are sending me emails of support. I'm speaking for a faction of authors. I have lots of reader/friends on a variety of forums. I tend to avoid places that slam authors. Authors having disagreements with other authors on the state of publishing and marketing great, that's mainly what we get here, and yes, some get snarky. But none of them threaten not to buy the whole groups' books.


I believe the point is not to create a place where readers are free to slam authors but to create a place where readers are free to interact with authors. You can't do that if you try to weed out the posts that are critical of authors.

While cutting off a whole category of books due to the actions of a few is silly, there's nothing in the OP that crosses the line.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

vrabinec-  you were right... but only because she addressed me directly

And Lisa, I don't just speak for me, I speak for a number of readers who don't feel comfortable venturing in here and getting this kind of attitude thrown at them.  

So, we can talk all we want about who we represent, but in the end, I don't really care to discuss this with you any more, because you see things your way and I see things mine.  In truth, neither is right, both are right and in the end, it's not important enough for me to care about. 

I wish you and all your supporting authors well, and now I'm logging off to go get dinner.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


>


Yum!

Betsy


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

telracs said:


> ...and now I'm logging off to go get dinner.


Wait, I'll go with you. I'm buying.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Wait, I'll go with you. I'm buying.


Hey, everybody, Jeff's buying! *piles into KB bus*

Betsy


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> But none of them threaten not to buy the whole groups' books.


I don't see it as threatening though Lisa. She's just stating how she feels. Threatening would be, "I won't buy your books unless you..." - she's just decided not to buy any indie books. A somewhat strong reaction to the threads here - but, given the far worse offences commited by some of the more dubious self-publishers out there - probably a reaction she'd have had to indie authors sooner or later regardless of the cafe.

Given that that is how she feels, I don't see what we would gain by hiding that fact. If you ignore problems then they generally just get worse. Surely it's better to know that some people have an issue with threads in the cafe? Even if we decide that we don't see the same issues that the poster does - it's good to know that they feel that way. It's like an early warning system for potential issues.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Wait, I'll go with you. I'm buying.


Uh oh. Scarlet, I hope you have room for another manuscript in your bag...


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Wait, I'll go with you. I'm buying.


Supper goats?


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> We moderators do a lot of saving you from yourselves by deleting the worst bits.


This is an off the cuff comment, but I find it very disturbing.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

vrabinec said:


> I like it when someone comes in here and stirs up poo with a post like that. It's invariably the most entertaining thread of the day...


Therein lies the problem. People start dedicating more time and attention to these threads rather than getting involved in more productive conversations, and things always degenerate from there until such threads take over.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> I'm pretty sure she knew it would be read by authors since her last lines were:
> _We may not post in there, as readers, but we do read the threads. Be aware that we (your customers) do take note of what transpires in there. _


Oh, yeah, no doubt she was talking to us. But there's shouting at someone from down the hall and there's sitting down at their dinner table and dissing people to their faces. I went back and read some of OP's other posts, and she doesn't come off as an aggressively confrontational person. Putting the thread in the BB might've been her way of preserving some distance for herself. Sort of like publishing an open letter.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Supper goats?


Not to get off topic, but how was that _Fury of Fire_ book? I'm thinking of picking it up.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Oh, yeah, no doubt she was talking to us. But there's shouting at someone from down the hall and there's sitting down at their dinner table and dissing people to their faces. I went back and read some of OP's other posts, and she doesn't come off as an aggressively confrontational person. Putting the thread in the BB might've been her way of preserving some distance for herself. Sort of like publishing an open letter.


No, that post kinda came out of the blue.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Attebery said:


> This is an off the cuff comment, but I find it very disturbing.


Nope. Not off the cuff. I thought for quite a long time before actually posting it.

Though the 'saving from yourselves' is usually a by product -- posts are really removed because they violate forum decorum. Sometimes spectacularly.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Greg Banks said:


> Therein lies the problem. People start dedicating more time and attention to these threads rather than getting involved in more productive conversations, and things always degenerate from there until such threads take over.


Or, as has been proven time and time again, sometimes participating in the so-called productive threads is what gives birth to degenerative threads like this one in the first place. Then again, who gets to decide which threads are productive and which ones aren't?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> Oh, yeah, no doubt she was talking to us. But there's shouting at someone from down the hall and there's sitting down at their dinner table and dissing people to their faces. I went back and read some of OP's other posts, and she doesn't come off as an aggressively confrontational person. Putting the thread in the BB might've been her way of preserving some distance for herself. Sort of like publishing an open letter.


But the Book Bazaar proper is ONLY for book threads. Not for general comments or questions. It wasn't ever going to stay there.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> Not to get off topic, but how was that _Fury of Fire_ book? I'm thinking of picking it up.


It was ok. Similarities with the JD Ward Brotherhood series, just Dragons instead of Vampires. I think it suffered from being a first in the series. Has potential though, so I might read the next. I would have liked to see the "races" of dragons more fleshed out and more back story on that.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

That's it! I'm boycotting myself. I'm never buying any of my own work again!



I say we should all just party as hard as this guy:










He knows where the fun is.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Attebery said:


> OK, then it's all the more disturbing.
> 
> I'm amazed more authors here don't voice concerns over the casual attitude with which this is stated and practiced. I run a popular website with a very active forum, and we would never for one second consider altering a member's post with such a casual attitude. The fact that this is a forum for independent writers would make me think others here would be just as uncomfortable as I am with the idea that someone else is altering their statements to save them from themselves. I've expressed similar concerns in the past, and seen how so many fall in line behind the moderators, but it still amazes me.


And therein lies the other problem that crops up. When Moderators actually try to _moderate_, people get upset over that, as if leaving all the crap that needed to be moderated alone wouldn't have been destructive to the site. People say they want a confrontation free environment, but they don't want the people in charge of trying to protect the community to actually protect the community.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Attebery said:


> OK, then it's all the more disturbing.
> 
> I'm amazed more authors here don't voice concerns over the casual attitude with which this is stated and practiced. I run a popular website with a very active forum, and we would never for one second consider altering a member's post with such a casual attitude. The fact that this is a forum for independent writers would make me think others here would be just as uncomfortable as I am with the idea that someone else is altering their statements to save them from themselves. I've expressed similar concerns in the past, and seen how so many fall in line behind the moderators, but it still amazes me.


It's not casual.

And it's not a forum for independent writers.

It is, as is stated on every page "an independent resource for people who own or have interest in Kindle." There just happens to be this one section that is for discussion of writing stuff.

And, as I said, the reason we remove or edit posts -- not just here in the Cafe but throughout the boards -- is because they violate  Forum Decorum.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> telracs - I don't just speak for me, I also speak for the authors who are sending me emails of support. I'm speaking for a faction of authors. I have lots of reader/friends on a variety of forums. I tend to avoid places that slam authors. Authors having disagreements with other authors on the state of publishing and marketing great, that's mainly what we get here, and yes, some get snarky. But none of them threaten not to buy the whole groups' books.


I used to read Lisa's books. Then I learned that she tortured and killed a frog once, just because it was FAT! So now I refuse to buy her books, or any indie's books (except for Jeanne who read the frog's mind). I wont buy Canadian's books because they're so ugly (the writers, not the books.) I won't buy any books that use paper because a guy who made paper once murdered a small puppy. I won't even look at a book where the editor can't spell "definite." And poo on the Forum Decorum where it says we can't use "bad words." There are no bad words, only bad intentions.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Then again, who gets to decide which threads are productive and which ones aren't?


Oh, that's me, actually. And y'all thought I was a newbie!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Attebery said:


> OK, then it's all the more disturbing.
> 
> I'm amazed more authors here don't voice concerns over the casual attitude with which this is stated and practiced. I run a popular website with a very active forum, and we would never for one second consider altering a member's post with such a casual attitude. The fact that this is a forum for independent writers would make me think others here would be just as uncomfortable as I am with the idea that someone else is altering their statements to save them from themselves. I've expressed similar concerns in the past, and seen how so many fall in line behind the moderators, but it still amazes me.


I think it's usual to edit out offensive comments & delete offensive posts on a family-friendly forum (and Kindleboards has been stated as being family-friendly.) I used to Moderate on a large forum with a significant number of underage users & we moderated on that basis. The important thing is to note that an edit has been made : "Edited for swearing", or "Edited for inflammatory remarks" for example - or even just "Edited by..." (whole post deletions don't generally need to be stated unless subsequent posts no longer make sense.) Changing what someone has said so that it reads differently would be a huge no-no - but I've never seen the Mods do that here.


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## GPB (Oct 2, 2010)

I think the mods should either lock or sticky this thread. I can't decide.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Yum!
> 
> Betsy


You really thought that was a marshmallow floating there? Au Contraire my leetle policewoman. It's a bad word, and yes, with a bad intention, and belongs in the erotica thread. Please move it forthwith.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

David Adams said:


> That's it! I'm boycotting myself. I'm never buying any of my own work again!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations, David, you wrote the post that *finally* sent me back to work on my book. Hm ... tough to do, now that I've been blinded.


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Nope. Not off the cuff. I thought for quite a long time before actually posting it.
> 
> Though the 'saving from yourselves' is usually a by product -- posts are really removed because they violate forum decorum. Sometimes spectacularly.


The whole problem with this is there are some very gray areas of your alliterative "forum decorum" that would allow you to censor, delete or even ban a member should you not care for his/her word choice or point of view. This leads to over-moderation at times, and I think you know what I'm referring to. I've never once personally attacked a person on this board, yet when I've argued an idea strongly I'm accused of violating the decorum by being "confrontational." Yes, I do confront ideas I disagree with, but do not attack others. I've also been accused of "trolling" though I've never attacked others. I've also been accused of making my arguments in such a way as to "incite" or "inflame" others, though I've never attacked others. Your decorum rules are way too vague.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

B.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't even know what's going on, but I'm avoiding my WIP, so I'm going to contribute to this thread.

THIS THREAD IS THE BEST THREAD! IT IS THE KITCHEN PARTY OF THE CAFE!










Hey, are any of you considering killing your author account here and coming back as a "GENUINE BOOK-BUYING/AUTHOR-BOYCOTTING READER" (GBBABR) whose opinions are 100x more exciting and worthy of attention than the posts of authors?

When a GBBABR strolls in, it's like we're all a bunch of grade nine students on recess and the principal has just come by. Cough cough. Behaving selves.

Can we all start referring to GBBABRs from now on? It would make life even better.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

We had a chance to make this about ponies. Now 



 is how it ends.

B.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Attitudes change over time. It's my impression that this thread would have taken a completely different direction one year ago. I think it would have been much more deferential to consumer ideas about how authors should act and how they should respond to consumers and each other.

Avoiding giving offense to anyone seemed to be much stronger last year. I've noticed an evolution in attitude, and wonder how widespread it is among author/publishers.

I confess it's very hard to assemble data to support impressions like this. It's just a general impression, and is certainly a function of what I have personally read and not read.

The times, they are a-changing?


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I don't understand what is so difficult or why 10 pages? Iris didn't like some thread with some authors bashing some other author and she ain't gonna buy any books from those authors doing the bashing. Her choice. Some readers will not reward what they interpret as poor behaviour. Understandable. 

Some should be learning something from her post.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

MikeAngel said:


> The whole problem with this is there are some very gray areas of your alliterative "forum decorum" that would allow you to censor, delete or even ban a member should you not care for his/her word choice or point of view...


Life is full of gray areas. You try to do your best to make the best judgements. You don't _not_ do what someone has to do because of the possibility of crossing into gray areas. The entire "big brother gestapo is watching" argument is old and tired. Either you trust the people who volunteer their time to moderate or you don't. Bottom line. They are doing what they need to do in the best way that they can. If you're going to direct undue mistrust toward them in the face of how excellently they have proven to do their jobs, that is _your_ issue, not theirs.


----------



## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> I don't understand what is so difficult or why 10 pages? Iris didn't like some thread with some authors bashing some other author and she ain't gonna buy any books from those authors doing the bashing. Her choice. Some readers will not reward what they interpret as poor behaviour. Understandable.
> 
> Some should be learning something from her post.


Iris stated she was done with indie authors as a whole. That's a completely different issue.

I guess I'm mostly confused with the implication that all indie authors are mean, that must indicate that all traditionally published authors are not. As someone who wears both hats, I assure you that's not the case. Buttheads exist everywhere, in all professions, ages, races, etc.

At my very first writer's conference, I stood in check-in behind a bestselling author who was running down everyone in the room to her friend - starting with "shouldn't even write a grocery list" and ending with "probably slept with her editor to get a contract." It never once occurred to me that all traditionally published authors felt that way. Why would it?


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Iris stated she was done with indie authors as a whole. That's a completely different issue.


Maybe she was upset and went overboard in her post. I'm sure that in time and with some reflection Iris will realize that she can't lump everyone together because of the words or actions of a few. Only a very ignorant person would do that and though I don't know her I don't think she is that ignorant.

ie: I don't think all baseball players are bad because of the behaviour of a few.

@ Mike Angel: I think both Ann and Besty do a good job of keeping the streets of Dodge safe for women and children. It's a tough job and can't make everybody happy everyday.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> I used to read Lisa's books. Then I learned that she tortured and killed a frog once, just because it was FAT! So now I refuse to buy her books, or any indie's books (except for Jeanne who read the frog's mind). I wont buy Canadian's books because they're so ugly (the writers, not the books.) I won't buy any books that use paper because a guy who made paper once murdered a small puppy. I won't even look at a book where the editor can't spell "definite." And poo on the Forum Decorum where it says we can't use "bad words." There are no bad words, only bad intentions.


LOL, Mike. I'm buying one of your books right now. I refuse to read reader's posts anymore that don't buy my books and I'm boycotting non-buyers by buying books. I'll just stick to my fan mail, those readers rock!


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I refuse to read reader's posts anymore that don't buy my books. I'll just stick to my fan mail, those readers rock!


Well excuse me very much. . I guess that is one way of getting more readers. Or not.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Well excuse me very much. . I guess that is one way of getting more readers. Or not.


Hey, it's the readers who read my books that get me more readers-word of mouth and all that. When I run ads on Kindleboards (which I have in the past), and I have a whole week's worth coming up, I do it to support Harvey. Past response (sales) shows me clearly that my readers don't hang out here, anyway.

If Iris has the right to boycott all indie authors over something beyond mine and most indie authors' control (which is fine) but to throw it in our faces? Why would genuine readers get upset if I got upset over a remark like that? Why should I say that's okay? It's not. It's not nice and that's the truth.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

D a l y a said:


> Can we all start referring to GBBABRs from now on? It would make life even better.


FWIW, IMHO the last thing the KB WC needs is another TLA.

"BBOS? POI? ENT? KDP? WHOA? *GBBABR*?! OMGWTFBBQ??!!!111oneoneeleven"
"LMGTFY"
"WTF?"
"BBIAB, reading GRRM ATM"
"FU"
"LOL!"


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> We had a chance to make this about ponies. Now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great scene.

When I was a kid, the song _Wildfire_ came out. Every time the song came on, I'd run around the house with my in my lederhosen coppung my hands up to my chubby red cheeks, hollering, "Wildfire!"

That's the only pony story I have.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

George Berger said:


> FWIW, IMHO the last thing the KB WC needs is another TLA.
> 
> "BBOS? POI? ENT? KDP? WHOA? *GBBABR*?! OMGWTFBBQ??!!!111oneoneeleven"
> "LMGTFY"
> ...


IKR


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

This whole thread (and the one referenced herein and advised by PM, (thank you anonymous PM informant, lol) that it points at, though vaguely) is like a trainwreck. You don't want to watch the horror, but it's as if you're strangely compelled to look on despite yourself.

Now, it's talking about whether the site should be moderated, or whether WC posts should be moderated, etc. Simple answer: KB is a private site maintained by private persons, and as such, freedom of speech does not apply. Just like any other privately maintained site, the administration can choose whether or not to moderate.

Wow at all of this.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David Adams said:


>


She's ugly, but she's got some decent hooters. If I was drunk enough...


----------



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Gotta love these brouhahas. Over 3000 views in less than 24 hours and still counting, ROTFLMAO.


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Simple answer: KB is a private site maintained by private persons, and as such, freedom of speech does not apply. Just like any other privately maintained site, the administration can choose whether or not to moderate.


Ain't this a great country?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> This whole thread (and the one referenced herein and advised by PM, (thank you anonymous PM informant, lol) that it points at, though vaguely) is like a trainwreck. You don't want to watch the horror, but it's as if you're strangely compelled to look on despite yourself.
> 
> Now, it's talking about whether the site should be moderated, or whether WC posts should be moderated, etc. Simple answer: KB is a private site maintained by private persons, and as such, freedom of speech does not apply. Just like any other privately maintained site, the administration can choose whether or not to moderate.
> 
> Wow at all of this.


Well, it's kept Krista and me amused, so it can't be all bad. Someone posted that youtube video of Norman Mailer being an *ss. Mark Twain was mentioned several times. I consider those factors make this thread a winner.


----------



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Ain't this a great country?


I want that on a sweater. Ya hear that, Betsy?


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, it's keep Krista and me amused so it can't be all bad. Someone posted that youtube video of Norman Mailer being an *ss. Mark Twain was mentioned several times. I consider those factors make this thread a winner.


Hey, I just bought a Mike Angel book, so it's driving his sales up. . I'm supporting indie & traditional, whether the author makes me happy or sad, at least they make me feel something, which is why we write.


----------



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Hey, I just bought a Mike Angel book, so it's driving his sales up. . I'm supporting indie & traditional, whether the author makes me happy or sad, at least they make me feel something, which is why we write.


What if they make you mad?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> I want that on a sweater. Ya hear that, Betsy?


I'm sure that someone who knits can work on that for you, Kevis.  I _think_ asking someone who quilts to knit something is a bannable offense. Checking the FD now...










Betsy


----------



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm sure that someone who knits can work on that for you, Kevis.  I _tthink_ asking someone who quilts to knit something is a bannable offense. Checking the FD now...
> Betsy


(_A stupefied Berserker quietly walks back to the penalty box while dragging his axe..._)


----------



## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

I would think any thread that keeps us in one spot so we aren't mucking up the rest of the forum would be a good thing?

And now I'm going back to page 2 of this thread to clean my eyes with something more pleasing after David's hellacious imagery *ARGH*


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Hasn't this thing been locked, yet? vrabinec said "hooters," for god's sake. What more is it going to take?


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Hasn't this thing been locked, yet? vrabinec said "hooters," for god's sake. What more is it going to take?


I got ya covered, B.






B.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> What if they make you mad?


Yeah, that too. Unless I figure they're doing it on purpose to make me buy their book. 
I'm boycotting non-buyers by buying.

Plus, I'll tweet out the boycotted books I buy to my massive twitter following, FB, Goodreads, website, ACFW forum, Indie Author forum, Writer's Groups, churches, and various other support groups, etc. 
We'll start our own Facebook page for boycotted indie authors. I guess, since Iris is boycotting all indie authors, everyone is eligible to join.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I got ya covered, B.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NO, NOT HE-MAN!!! Have you no decency?!?

<shuffles back to WIP, weeping, childhood memories destroyed forever>


----------



## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Yeah, that too. Unless I figure they're doing it on purpose to make me buy their book.
> I'm boycotting non-buyers by buying.
> 
> Plus, I'll tweet out the boycotted books I buy to my massive twitter following, FB, Goodreads, website, ACFW forum, Indie Author forum, Writer's Groups, churches, and various other support groups, etc.
> We'll start our own Facebook page for boycotted indie authors. I guess, since Iris is boycotting all indie authors, everyone is eligible to join.


LOL.


----------



## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

vrabinec said:


> She's ugly, but she's got some decent hooters. If I was drunk enough...


The liquor would kill way before you got _that_ drunk.


----------



## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

From such a dismal beginning, this thread has certainly morphed into something quite fun.

Since it's winding down, I'm tipping my hat to all those who nudged it along to a better ending.


----------



## Gregory Lynn (Aug 9, 2011)

David Adams said:


>


Nice shoes.


----------



## JonDavis1 (Apr 11, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I got ya covered, B.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He-Man... really?

*SIGH*

that's it... time to pull out...


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Maybe she was upset and went overboard in her post. I'm sure that in time and with some reflection Iris will realize that she can't lump everyone together because of the words or actions of a few. Only a very ignorant person would do that and though I don't know her I don't think she is that ignorant.


And here it is.

She read a thread where people were upset and went overboard and had a pissing match.

That caused her to be upset and go overboard and refer to this forum as a cesspool.

So if she does take time to reflect maybe she will realize that her actions are not so different from the actions of those that she is condemning.


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm going to shoot all of you. *looks for slingshot*
> 
> Betsy


  I actually like that typo up thread, that made you Besty.


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

EC Sheedy said:


> I actually like that typo up thread, that made you Besty.


She's the bestest Besty there ever was, bar none.


----------



## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

When I read a book that keeps me turning the pages until something forces me to put it down, I know I've found a good book. Applying that same criterion to this thread, I'd have to say that it was surprisingly entertaining. I kept clicking to the next page. I was amused at times, appalled at times, and annoyed at times. You people rock.

My take on the issues raised herein:
* Let the readers say what they want. We authors sure do. 
* Don't want to buy any more indie books? Your loss.
* Moderation? _Somebody_ has to be in charge of this unruly bunch.
* Being ignored? Happens to all of us, particularly if we are being nice. 
* Scarlet? Yes, please. 

I give this thread 5 stars.


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I got ya covered, B.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> * Scarlet? Yes, please.


Since you asked so nicely.


----------



## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Since you asked so nicely.


Hummana, hummana, hummana!


----------



## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Since you asked so nicely.


I was thinking of a completely different Scarlet, I'm afraid...










Cue Krista's shouting in 5..4..3...


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks, I can think of at least three recent brouhahas here in the Writers' Café that would meet Iris's description. I won't comment on her reaction--it's hers and she's entitled to it. I think that the thing to take from her comment is that your discussions here are read by potential customers and have impact. This is a forum for Kindle owners, after all. They're everywhere!
> 
> Yes, we are known as the "nice Internet forum" and yes, things mostly go pretty well. But I've seen more than one lynch mob form on KindleBoards, and most often, lately, here in the Writers' Café.
> 
> ...


This. These wise words.

Which is why I have this moniker and very rarely post under my author name unless I can be helpful to someone else. If I'm just chatting, or asking questions, I use this identity, because friends, the Internet is forever and readers are my business. I don't want to take the chance of saying something boneheaded and get into a shooting war.

Even with this identity I resist the urge to comment.

But I must honestly tell you that I scratch my head in amazement at what some of you are willing to post on a public forum. I think Iris raises legit concerns, and it's telling that even Ann has writers she won't buy because of their public behavior.

Just because Norman Mailer acted like a boor does not mean it's a good idea for the rest of us.

G


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I think Krista might be fine with this one. Its not a chain mail bikini after all   

I am still waiting for some more man titties though.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Since you asked so nicely.


My God, man, I'm trying to write over here. I may never regain my concentration.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

JonDavis1 said:


> He-Man... really?
> 
> *SIGH*
> 
> that's it... time to pull out...


That's what she said.

<snigger>


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca....



Betsy


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

*"That looks fun. I'll just be coordinating the air and ground forces over here..."*​
B.


----------



## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

WHDean said:


> I agree with the OP! I was deeply offended when someone said something they shouldn't have said about something they shouldn't have said something about. I'm not saying _who _ said it, and I'm not saying _what _ they said or _when _ they said it. I'm not even going to say whether it was said to me directly, said to something else, or just implied by what they said to me or to someone else-or whether it was an intended or unintended implication of what they said to me or to someone else, but may not have consciously meant.


After lurking for a few days, I was planning to introduce myself politely, but I have to jump into this thread before it gets locked.

Let's all sing a couple of hearty verses of "Whatever You Say Say Nothing", sung by the Clancy Brothers.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Becca....
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


Soooorrrry ...


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

This is the thread that will not end ...

It just goes on and on my friend ...

Some people starting posting it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting it forever just because ...


----------



## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

ChristinePope said:


>


Best dang post in this whole thread.


----------



## JonDavis1 (Apr 11, 2012)

When I published I had to have a long talk with all my internal voices. The one thing they all agreed on was that I should be as diplomatic as possible to everyone here. Cause, everyone here on Kindle boards can make or BREAK me.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JonDavis1 said:


> When I published I had to have a long talk with all my internal voices. The one thing they all agreed on was that I should be as diplomatic as possible to everyone here. Cause, everyone here on Kindle boards can make or BREAK me.


You have to get out more. There's a whole world out there. (Unless you're in the silo.)


----------



## JonDavis1 (Apr 11, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> You have to get out more. There's a whole world out there. (Unless you're in the silo.)


Wait a second... you mean there's a world beyond those gates to this nice sanitarium? Drat! I knew they were lying!


----------



## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Remember M. Night Shyamalan's T_he Village_? _The Truman Show_?


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Supper goats?


LOL This thread is slowly turning into the Never Ending Story. (And completely off the OP topic, some of you--not all of you, mind--are hilarious. 

Off to kill a supper goat...


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

It has turned into some fun, which is good as I heard a rumor they might be getting an additional WC mod:


----------



## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

I go by the saying that you attract a lot more flies with sugar than with vinegar. Not that I want to attract flies, but it's a good description.

I have also noticed that the most successful authors are those who are generous, courteous and helpful.

I can be pretty snippy and opinionated and I do have a hot temper and can lash out. But only in private and never on public fora such as this one. 

That said, and I will contradict the above a little, I think that a heated debate can be very interesting and fun, provided the participants don't take offence and have a sense of humour. That to me would be intriguing and I, as a reader, would take peek at their books.

I also think that the moderations on these boards are far too strict, which often curtails an interesting debate before anything bad  has even started, as if the moderators can read minds. Some participants here get slapped down more than others, simply because they are known to be controversial. But this often makes everything so bland. We are writers after all and we have a way with words. Why not let us off the leash a little and just stop what would be real abuse? Some authors here can be very funny and very articulate which is entertaining. There is a huge middle ground between real abuse or flame wars and a little sniping. Why is that middle ground so heavily policed here?

There is nothing like a loveable rogue...


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

This thread would not be complete without Zardoz.


----------



## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> This thread would not be complete without Zardoz.


I didn't recognize him without the head of one of the Davids photochopped on there.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

My eyes!!!  Don't make me lock this thread, y'all!     *runs from room*

Betsy


----------



## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> * Being ignored? Happens to all of us, particularly if we are being nice.
> * Scarlet? Yes, please.


I agree. If you are being ignored, it's not because you are a reader and not a writer. It's more likely because you are making intelligent and articulate comments. If you want more interaction, try acting like an idiot. It works every time pretty much everywhere on the internet.

And yes to Scarlet! We have a winner.


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> I agree. If you are being ignored, it's not because you are a reader and not a writer. It's more likely because you are making intelligent and articulate comments. If you want more interaction, try acting like an idiot. It works every time pretty much everywhere on the internet.


@Adam Pepper
She could also try to talk to someone in particular, us authors like that when we're called by name! 
It makes us feel sssspeeeeccciiialllllll


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Since you asked so nicely.


Isn't this one of the pics the hacker got off her cell phone? I think he's doing time for it. Pretty sure it is.


----------



## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Isn't this one of the pics the hacker got off her cell phone? I think he's doing time for it. Pretty sure it is.


Well someone should thank him for taking one for the team!


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Do people like Scarlet really find a bench with a grey wall  (or shove a table against it) and have someone take a picture like that and expect it not to be posted? Come on.


----------



## GPB (Oct 2, 2010)

vrabinec said:


> Isn't this one of the pics the hacker got off her cell phone? I think he's doing time for it. Pretty sure it is.


If so, that's one high-quality cell phone pic. _Really_ high-quality.


----------



## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Do people like Scarlet really find a bench with a grey wall (or shove a table against it) and have someone take a picture like that and expect it not to be posted? Come on.


It looks like a pro shot to me.


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Victoria J said:


> Best dang post in this whole thread.


Thank you. There just wasn't enough Loki in here!


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> It looks like a pro shot to me.


Yeah, so did the one of her topless that made the e-mail rounds. Pretty sure those are the same panties and it's definitely the same set. (Uhhh, don't ask how I know.) Though, it's possible this one got released legitimately, and the other was a personal extra shot she had made for whoever the guy was she was sending it to.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

...a more wretched hive of scum and villainy...

Change forum name from Writer's Cafe to Mos Eisley Cantina. Never mind the enormous LucasArts lawsuit, visitors (and residents) would have much more accurate expectations of how authors interact in the wild.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MegSilver said:


> ...a more wretched hive of scum and villainy...
> 
> Change forum name from Writer's Cafe to Mos Eisley Cantina. Never mind the enormous LucasArts lawsuit, visitors (and residents) would have much more accurate expectations of how authors interact in the wild.


And that means nothing to me? Off to Google...

EDIT: Aahhh, no wonder, I didn't see the later SW movies...

Betsy


----------



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

MegSilver said:


> ...a more wretched hive of scum and villainy...
> 
> Change forum name from Writer's Cafe to Mos Eisley Cantina. Never mind the enormous LucasArts lawsuit, visitors (and residents) would have much more accurate expectations of how authors interact in the wild.


I am very offended by this Star Wars reference and will stop buying Lucas' products!


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And that means nothing to me? Off to Google...
> 
> EDIT: Aahhh, no wonder, I didn't see the later SW movies...


Betsy, how _could_ you? The prequels? Really?

We must remedy this. We simply must. It's just not right.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I am very offended by this Star Wars reference and will stop buying Lucas' products!


*giggling*

Frankly I'm surprised this thread went on so long before someone brought it up.

I felt obligated, ya know?


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I am very offended by this Star Wars reference and will stop buying Lucas' products!


I am offended that you would dare be offended by this Star Wars reference! If you are going to be offended in regards to Star Wars, THIS is offensive!










I still can barely look at this without fighting not to rip my eyes out.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

I don't know how they got Steve Buscemi into that wig.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I still can barely look at this without fighting not to rip my eyes out.


This will make it better.










B.


----------



## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

My Dear Iris,

If you were only to read "conflict-free books," in which no writer ever attacked the author, your reading list would be pitifully small indeed.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

MegSilver said:


> Betsy, how _could_ you? The prequels? Really?
> 
> We must remedy this. We simply must. It's just not right.


sorry...off to see if they are on Netflix...though the grandkids might have them.

Betsy


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> This will make it better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL! Epic win!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MegSilver said:


> Betsy, how _could_ you? The prequels? Really?
> 
> We must remedy this. We simply must. It's just not right.


I saw the first prequel and since it made me barf didn't see the rest of them. Betsy is not alone.

However, changing the name to something that better fits the real behavior of Writers might be a good idea. No respectable cafe would consider letting us in the door.

Edit: Actually, we're probably better behaved than we used to be. In the old days, I saw blood flow over what weight paper we should use to make submissions! And the fisticuffs that broke out over formatting a ms... Tables and chairs were invariably broken.


----------



## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I am offended that you would dare be offended by this Star Wars reference! If you are going to be offended in regards to Star Wars, THIS is offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EWWW! That is much more offensive than the pic David Adams posted (which is really saying something).


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I am offended that you would dare be offended by this Star Wars reference! If you are going to be offended in regards to Star Wars, THIS is offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, I could have gone my whole life without ever seeing that again. And I was already cranky this morning...


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> sorry...off to see if they are on Netflix...though the grandkids might have them.


Betsy, don't do it.

Seriously.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Betsy, don't do it.
> 
> Seriously.


Uh oh... I might have misunderstood Betsy. I thought she meant she ONLY saw the prequels, which is a crime against humanity. Or at least good taste.

I kept a small JarJar action figure just to remind myself not to be a tool for the sake of sales. One day, I will let the dog eat it.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MegSilver said:


> Uh oh... I might have misunderstood Betsy. I thought she meant she ONLY saw the prequels, which is a crime against humanity. Or at least good taste.
> 
> I kept a small JarJar action figure just to remind myself not to be a tool for the sake of sales. One day, I will let the dog eat it.


Oh no, Meg, I fear you may have inadvertently sent Betsy off into eternal Jar Jar torment!


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## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Oh no, Meg, I fear you may have inadvertently sent Betsy off into eternal Jar Jar torment!


I'll probably get banned. And deservedly so.

/facepalm self


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## CathleenShaffer (Feb 15, 2012)

I recently purchased a meal at an Italian restaurant. It was terrible. I have decided I will never again eat at an Italian restaurant.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Edit: Actually, we're probably better behaved than we used to be. In the old days, I saw blood flow over what weight paper we should use to make submissions! And the fisticuffs that broke out over formatting a ms... Tables and chairs were invariably broken.


Fountain pens make better weapons than laptops.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

MegSilver said:


> *giggling*
> 
> Frankly I'm surprised this thread went on so long before someone brought it up.
> 
> I felt obligated, ya know?


You're so evil!


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I am offended that you would dare be offended by this Star Wars reference! If you are going to be offended in regards to Star Wars, THIS is offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not even able to tell from which movie this is... and I don't even care!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> Isn't this one of the pics the hacker got off her cell phone? I think he's doing time for it. Pretty sure it is.


No, that's from her Esquire photo shoot:

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/ScarlettJohansson10.jpg


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> No, that's from her Esquire photo shoot:
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/ScarlettJohansson10.jpg


Thank you. Your generosity is appreciated!


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I'm not even able to tell from which movie this is... and I don't even care!


It's from Return of the Jedi but AFTER Lucas revised it to include Hayden Christianson in the role of Anakin (Darth Vader) instead of the generic actor that had been placed there when the movie was originally released


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

CathleenShaffer said:


> I recently purchased a meal at an Italian restaurant. It was terrible. I have decided I will never again eat at an Italian restaurant.


Ever have really bad Chinese? I did and it put me off all Chinese restaurants for a solid 3 years.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> It's from Return of the Jedi but AFTER Lucas revised it to include Hayden Christianson in the role of Anakin (Darth Vader) instead of the generic actor that had been placed there when the movie was originally released


WAY too much nformation  

Don't tease me or I'll link to ZE PIC...


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

I have not consented to the new Terms of Service, which were implemented without any announcement and without the ability to accept or reject them. My continued participation on the forum is related only to addressing this issue and cannot be construed as implied consent.  9/21/2018


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Adam Pepper said:


> Ever have really bad Chinese? I did and it put me off all Chinese restaurants for a solid 3 years.


I had bad Chinese a couple months ago. The wife and I were cooking Kung Pau Pork, but we started drinking a little early on an empty stomach and instead of coating the pork in corn starch, she coated it in baking soda. Of course, we were sloshed when we started eating it and didn't really notice until we had three or four bites. Both ended up hurling off the deck. Actually, if was pretty funny at the time, so bad food can be good sometimes.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

vrabinec said:


> I had bad Chinese a couple months ago. The wife and I were cooking Kung Pau Pork, but we started drinking a little early on an empty stomach and instead of coating the pork in corn starch, she coated it in baking soda...


I've long held that cooking is a responsibility that should be treated akin to driving - i.e. don't do it without proper training or under the influence. I'm often the "designated cook" at get-togethers, but that's fine. Drunks will praise just about anything they didn't have to cook themselves. 

Mind you, I once wound up making an eleven-egg omelette because of this policy, but...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

We cook drunk every night. It's just that it was a Saturday and we started early because we were at a party that was serving booze but not horse's ovaries.


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## Mackenzie Morgan (Dec 3, 2010)

I'd like to thank all of you for this entertaining thread. I've had more fun reading this than I've had in quite a while. Just wanted you to know it's appreciated.

Mackenzie


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

It's a good place to go when...


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Iris said:


> I recently purchased an indie book for my Kindle based upon reviews I had read in places other than this site. I began reading it. Liked what I had read.
> 
> Then a pissing match began about this author here on KB, in the Writer's Cafe. I haven't read a single word of the book I downloaded since that began.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. The abuse of fellow writers in here has caused a fair number of us not to hang around much any more.

However, your reaction seems go beyond rational, even to the point of disliking the indie author (whoever it was) who was abused by some in this crowd. What did that writer do to incur your wrath? If this really bothered you, it seems the logical reaction would be to support them even more, not give up on them.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

swolf said:


> Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. The abuse of fellow writers in here has caused a fair number of us not to hang around much any more.


Really? And all this time I thought you liked being abused.


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## Michelle Hughes (Dec 12, 2011)

I haven't really seen any thread where Authors are bickering.  I've seen a few heated arguments though on Self-Published vs Traditional which to be honest I just find silly.  I look for books that interest me and could really care less if they're written by a self-pub or Trad author.  In the last two years I've met so many incredible authors form both worlds and the help they've offered has been unbelievable.  Everyone has opinions, I'm definitely not going to argue with another author if I disagree with their advice, I just won't take it.  Wishing everyone much success... live, laugh, love (I didn't write that btw LOL)


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Really? And all this time I thought you liked being abused.


   

Only if I have a safe word.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

To Iris, my sincere apologies that your ideal vision of independent author togetherness was dashed within a single thread. However, as others have expressed, Zardoz pictures happen here. If this is a place you hoped to have happy-fun-time at, where nothing bad would ever be seen, read, or done, well... you have your answer. Zardoz happens here.

It is probably in everyone's best interests for you to leave now before we REALLY pollute your mind. You are free to take that as a threat. I WILL post pictures that I am neither proud of nor ashamed of. Because as an independent author who truly doesn't care about my online presence or what you can find me posting in a public forum, that's just how I roll... I have told others in the Indie Ecclective that no one ever wants me to be famous. I swear to all of you that if I am EVER on national television specifically for my fictional works, I will intentionally make a complete fool of myself and the indie community by coming in either: 1) a chicken suit and staying in character, 2) drag, 3) something equally as disturbing as the previous (perhaps, even the Zardoz outfit or a terrible, awful cosplay). You have been warned. You have all been warned. Under no circumstances should you recommend any of my books to anyone else. The consequences would indeed be dire!


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Iris said:


> I recently purchased an indie book for my Kindle based upon reviews I had read in places other than this site. I began reading it. Liked what I had read.
> 
> Then a pissing match began about this author here on KB, in the Writer's Cafe. I haven't read a single word of the book I downloaded since that began.
> 
> ...


Well, sorry you feel that way but do not forget that authors are people too, subject to the same issues and frustrations as any other person. In fact creative people are notoriously emotional (that's what makes us creative) and sometimes yes, fights do break out, some serious, some petty. But I always say, "it's not about the person, it's about the work."


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And that means nothing to me? Off to Google...
> 
> EDIT: Aahhh, no wonder, I didn't see the later SW movies...
> 
> Betsy


You never saw the original Star Wars? Seriously?? The Mos Eisley Cantina is from the very first Star Wars movie. A New Hope or whatever it finally got renamed to. Back in the day when it was released in 1977, it was just plain ol' Star Wars. It's where we first meet Han and Chewie!


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

Rex Jameson said:


> Zardoz happens here.


Maybe this should be included as a warning when new members sign up for the first time?


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Steph H said:


> You never saw the original Star Wars? Seriously?? The Mos Eisley Cantina is from the very first Star Wars movie. A New Hope or whatever it finally got renamed to. Back in the day when it was released in 1977, it was just plain ol' Star Wars. It's where we first meet Han and Chewie!


I know! Maybe it's just a generational thing. I was a sophomore in high school in 1977, and Star Wars (A New Hope) was the greatest. I still love the first three movies (the first two particularly) the best of the whole franchise. Obi-wan's line regarding Mos Eisley was one of my favs, "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." I watch the movies about once a year, and it still cracks me up.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Maybe this should be included as a warning when new members sign up for the first time?


"*WARNING*: This website may contain one or more of the following: Snark, sarcasm, strawmen, unfounded personal opinion masquerading as fact, groupthink, conspiracy theories, Hugh Howey, krakens, chocolate, genre fiction writers, an anti-serious-literature bias, professional trolls, the use of unfamiliar acronyms and abbreviations, grammar Nazis, recovering journalists, foreigners, feminists, members of the LGBTQ community, fanfic, and Zardoz. Proceed with caution. You have been warned."


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

George Berger said:


> "*WARNING*: This website may contain one or more of the following: Snark, sarcasm, strawmen, unfounded personal opinion masquerading as fact, groupthink, conspiracy theories, Hugh Howey, krakens, chocolate, genre fiction writers, an anti-serious-literature bias, professional trolls, the use of unfamiliar acronyms and abbreviations, grammar Nazis, recovering journalists, foreigners, feminists, members of the LGBTQ community, fanfic, and Zardoz. Proceed with caution. You have been warned."


You forgot Sith Witches, Vampire cats, and Beserkers...and quilting needles


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You forgot Sith Witches, Vampire cats, and Beserkers...and quilting needles


We wouldn't want to ruin _all_ a newbie's surprises, would we?


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Ah...if only forums could be like this....but, alas.....


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Steph H said:


> You never saw the original Star Wars? Seriously?? The Mos Eisley Cantina is from the very first Star Wars movie. A New Hope or whatever it finally got renamed to. Back in the day when it was released in 1977, it was just plain ol' Star Wars. It's where we first meet Han and Chewie!


Did I say that? I think I said I never saw the later movies.  Of course, I saw the original Star Wars...but if the bar was named the Mos Eisley Cantina then, that name didn't stick with me yea these 35 years later. According to Wikipedia,


> The cantina is first introduced in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.


 It was the name that didn't mean anything to me.

Betsy


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

You obviously are not a true Star Wars fan if you don't know the name of the cantina....


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

You're right.  I'm not.  Like the movies (that I saw) well enough but they didn't change my life.    I was just trying to remember; I'm sure I've seen the original one since I saw it in the theatre, but it's only been twice or so...



Betsy


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

All the seven and eight year old boys are Star Wars crazy. Star Wars lego themed birthday parties are all the rage. Anyway, my seven-year-old (at the time) daughter had never seen Star Wars (I know, bordering on child abuse, we now own all the movies and that's been remedied), but she loves wearing her long hair up. I gave her the Princess Leia hairdoo and told her all the boys would call her Princess Leia.

Sure enough, at recess they wanted to play Star Wars with Princess Leia. Mommy wanted to know which boy wanted to play Han Solo.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The 11 year old grandboy was SW crazy a couple of years ago and he, too, couldn't believe I didn't know all the movies by heart.  (He did, but then he has a photographic memory.)

Betsy


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Rex Jameson said:


> I WILL post pictures that I am neither proud of nor ashamed of.


You WILL?

PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE!!!










*evil grin*
That'll teach you to threaten the Mos Eisley Cantina.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## Katie Salidas (Mar 21, 2010)

This thread is still going? *Shakes head*


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

David Adams said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo












(Thought that was appropriate)


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## JonDavis1 (Apr 11, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You forgot Sith Witches, Vampire cats, and Beserkers...and quilting needles


Oh thank gods, no sewing machine needles the size of elephants. *phew!*


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> Zardoz doesn't seem to have the same impact he once had. I think that guy in the helmet and red shoes has replaced him on the squick-o-meter.


Or this: http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/32330.jpg (Copy and paste if you want to see. I don't want to inflict the mankini on the unwary)



> Rex, in a Zardoz costume, however? Oh, geez. That's cruel. (I have no idea what Rex looks like; it could be a good thing. I suspect not, though. I don't think Hugh Jackman would look good in that costume, and if Hugh can't pull it off....)


Hugh Jackman, no. Hugh _Howey_, on the other hand...some of us would pay good money. Where's David Adams with his mad Photoshop skillz?


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> Or this: http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/32330.jpg (Copy and paste if you want to see. I don't want to inflict the mankini on the unwary)
> 
> Hugh Jackman, no. Hugh _Howey_, on the other hand...some of us would pay good money. Where's David Adams with his mad Photoshop skillz?


My wife has a picture of me in drag from Halloween 9 years ago that would tank my career.

Really. It's that bad.


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## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Or this: http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/32330.jpg (Copy and paste if you want to see. I don't want to inflict the mankini on the unwary)
> 
> Hugh Jackman, no. Hugh _Howey_, on the other hand...some of us would pay good money. Where's David Adams with his mad Photoshop skillz?


You're a better man than I am...and since I am a bad man, I'll do what you were too good to do! 

Megasize (cause I can't figure out how to make it smaller). _(But I can. Y'all can thank me later!--Betsy)_


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

Iris said:


> I recently purchased an indie book for my Kindle based upon reviews I had read in places other than this site. I began reading it. Liked what I had read.
> 
> Then a pissing match began about this author here on KB, in the Writer's Cafe. I haven't read a single word of the book I downloaded since that began.
> 
> ...


I do feel sad for your decision. After all, just because one indie author is one doesn't mean all are, if that were true we'd have to say the same thing about all trade pubs. But in the writers defense, we are after all writers. by definition many of us are surely rude, crass, and often just odd people...LOL. I would let that scare you.


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

George Berger said:


> "*WARNING*: This website may contain one or more of the following: Snark, sarcasm, strawmen, unfounded personal opinion masquerading as fact, groupthink, conspiracy theories, Hugh Howey, krakens, chocolate, genre fiction writers, an anti-serious-literature bias, professional trolls, the use of unfamiliar acronyms and abbreviations, grammar Nazis, recovering journalists, foreigners, feminists, members of the LGBTQ community, fanfic, and Zardoz. Proceed with caution. You have been warned."


Hilarious and I would vote yes.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You forgot Sith Witches, Vampire cats, and Beserkers...and quilting needles


Depending upon taste, those could be included under the "professional troll" clause, but it may be better worded as "professional trolls, their flavor dependent upon today's mood".


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I am most certainly *not* a professional troll      I am a professional assassin. BIG DIFFERENCE


----------



## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I am most certainly *not* a professional troll     I am a professional assassin. BIG DIFFERENCE


Meh. Troll, assassin. Assassin, troll. Yawn...


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK


----------



## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK


Show us your crossbow - and maybe, just maybe.....we'll believe you.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK


Aww, Krista, you're so cute...


Betsy


----------



## JGray (Mar 7, 2012)

I'm still waiting on the photoshopped version of HH in the borat swimsuit.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I think Betsy is leaving this thread open only to demonstrate to the anti-moderation side what all threads would become without forum cops. lol


----------



## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)




----------



## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)




----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

CaedemMarquez said:


> You're a better man than I am...and since I am a bad man, I'll do what you were too good to do!
> 
> Megasize (cause I can't figure out how to make it smaller). _(But I can. Y'all can thank me later!--Betsy)_


I want one.


----------



## CaedemMarquez (Mar 23, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I want one.


I HAVE one!


----------



## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> I want one.


Dare you to wear that on South Beach. Oh wait. No one would notice.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

CaedemMarquez said:


> I HAVE one!


Speaking of things that would make one rethink purchasing an author's books... 

Betsy


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Speaking of things that would make one rethink purchasing an author's books...
> 
> Betsy


One feels like they shouldn't buy the author's books because it only encourages them to spend their money on things that are just wrong.


----------



## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> Depending upon taste, those could be included under the "professional troll" clause, but it may be better worded as "professional trolls, their flavor dependent upon today's mood".


Professional implies that I get paid for some of these posts, doesn't it?


----------



## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Professional implies that I get paid for some of these posts, doesn't it?


Do you work for Facebook.


----------

