# Literary Agents Looking for Self-Published/Kindle Published Authors Now



## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Yes, this is a legitimate. You can Google my name if you have any doubts. (Ask Joe Konrath or Karen McQuestion if you have any questions) And no, I'm not charging you anything.  Now, that that's out of the way, I wanted to let you know that:

Several legitimate literary agents have asked me to keep a look out for self-published/Kindle published authors who have sold a combined total of at least 10,000 copies of their books (doesn't matter the genre) and who are looking to make that transition from self-published to landing a book deal with a traditional publisher.

Yes, it is possible. I did it and landed a deal with Grand Central Publishing.  So, if this sounds like you and you've sold at least 10,000 copies of your book, then email me directly at: Jeff AT JeffRivera DOT com.  

If you want to keep doing it Indie, I applaud you, go for it but if you want to try to take a stab doing it traditional too, feel free to reach out to me.


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## R M Rowan (Jul 13, 2011)

Is there a time limit on this offer?  Because I haven't even published my first novel yet. (being proofread and cover designed at the moment).  But, I'll get to that 10,000 mark (wink) and I might want to take you up on that offer.


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## Joseph Flynn (Sep 29, 2010)

Barring a total economic collapse that takes Amazon along with it, I should hit 20,000 books sold on Amazon later this month. If I include books sold on B&N and the iBookstore, I'm already past 20,000.

I've also been traditionally published: Signet, Bantam and Variance.

But I am curious: Can you name any of these agents you're talking about? If so, why didn't you mention them up front? If not, why not?


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

R M Rowan said:


> Is there a time limit on this offer?


 Good question. Agents tastes change quickly. Right now, grabbing a successful self-published author is hot. Will it be the same a year or two from now? I don't know.


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Joseph Flynn said:


> Can you name any of these agents you're talking about? If so, why didn't you mention them up front? If not, why not?


 Another great question and congrats on your success! That's great. They asked me not to mention them in public forums. Can you imagine if everyone on Kindleboards emailed them? I get a chance to talk to the author(s) beforehand and feel them out and see if the numbers they say they hit are legit and if they're in the right mental state for an agent (No crazies allowed! Haha) Joseph, I can tell you in private if you'd like to email me but I cannot announce them in public. But just Google my name and you'll see several hundred literary agents I deal with on an annual basis.


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## Joseph Flynn (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks anyway. I have an agent waiting to read my next novel. I was just curious to see who you're talking about.

If you want to see if I'm legit, though, you can get an idea from my Amazon Kindle page: http://amzn.to/mYeIG0


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Right now my books are #1 and #9 on the Last 90 Days List For Teen Books. I'm outselling the _Twilight_ series on the top twenty teen kindle downloads list. But since my books have only been out 60 days as eBooks, I'm not at 10,000 yet. Word-of-mouth is selling them like hotcakes. My 3rd book in the series will be ready for publication November 1st. I have one well-known agent considering signing me, but nothing yet. I would like to get a paperback deal. 
Here is the link for the http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_12?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307412306&rnid=1000#/ref=sr_nr_p_n_publication_date_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28%2Cp_n_publication_date%3A1250227011&bbn=28&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312598475&rnid=1250225011


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## RonnellDPorter (Apr 20, 2010)

Well poo - I'm only at 9,999


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

What?  "No crazies"?  Damn.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Right now my books are #1 and #9 on the Last 90 Days List For Teen Books. I'm outselling the _Hunger Games_ series and the _Twilight_ series. But since my books have only been out 60 days as eBooks, I'm not at 10,000 yet. Word-of-mouth is selling them like hotcakes. My 3rd book in the series will be ready for publication November 1st. I have one well-known agent considering signing me, but nothing yet. I would like to get a paperback deal.
> Here is the link for the http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_12?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307412306&rnid=1000#/ref=sr_nr_p_n_publication_date_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28%2Cp_n_publication_date%3A1250227011&bbn=28&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312598475&rnid=1250225011


You realize neither Hunger Games, nor Twilight, has released within 90 days and therefore aren't on that list, right?

Twilight (book 1) is rated #405 in the store. Hunger Games (book 1), meanwhile, is #3_ in the entire store_. No offense, but you're not outselling either of them.


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## Joseph Flynn (Sep 29, 2010)

Kurt Vonnegut might have been thought of as a little crazy, if you just looked at his writing, but I sure liked his novels.


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## Rick Chesler (Jul 17, 2010)

Kindle is the new slush. If you have to go to them...you haven't done enough.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Half-Orc - 
No not when you consider they've been selling since the first of the year. If you look at this list, My book is #8 overall. For the last 60 days, my books are selling extremely well.

I'm sorry, I should have included the link for the top-twenty here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_12?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307412306&rnid=1000#/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310360798


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I assume you're Quinteria Ramey? Well, definitely outselling Twilight, but still not Hunger Games. They're #3, #5, and #7 in the store  

Much more impressive, though. Why are THOSE books not in your sig?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Half Orc - With only two self-published eBooks and the third not out until November, I'm extremely happy about being in the top ten( for kindle books for my genre on the list below). Not many self-publishers get that high with only two books out. Book 1 debuted May 23rd, and Book 2 only came out July 1st. I'll take my numbers as Lisa Grace. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_12?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307412306&rnid=1000#/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Akindle+books%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A28&bbn=1000&keywords=kindle+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310360798


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Half Orc - With only two self-published eBooks and the third not out until November, I'm extremely happy about being in the top ten. Not many self-publishers get that high with only two books out. Book 1 debuted May 23rd, and Book 2 only came out July 1st. I'll take my numbers as Lisa Grace.


Now I'm just confused.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Here's what's odd about this trend in which authors that sell 10,000+ ebooks (or whatever the number is) are getting interest from publishers.

1) Low pricing typically leads to more sales. So, generally, a 99 cent author is going to be way ahead of a $4.95 author in terms of sales volume. That skews the results. On the flip side, it's possible to sell a ton of ebooks at higher prices.

2) High sales in ebooks usually (not always) correlates with a large number of cross-selling ebook titles, not necessarily books that will do really well in the slow realms of traditional publishing. In many cases, it's the high number of available ebook titles (sometimes of lesser quality) that creates the Amazon snowballs, which leads to massive ebook sales. Or, it's due to great marketing from the authors. If those same authors are only writing average work in a traditional climate, with one ebook a year coming out at $13.95, it's going to be a totally different ballgame. This doesn't apply to anyone writing great books, but these agents are using a flawed criteria to find indie authors unless the traditional publishers are going to let these same authors publish multiple books a year (maybe) at cheap ebook prices (extremely unlikely).

I understand agents wanting to scoop up indies who are selling, but what created sales in the first place with ebooks may not lead to big sales in traditional publishing. Having good sales demonstrates a certain amount of writing and marketing savvy, though, and that makes perfect sense. 

But I think it's a mistake to set sales of x number as the litmus test. I know enough great indie authors who aren't selling in obscene numbers, but I'm sure with the right amount of support from traditional publishers, they'd do great. It's too bad these agents aren't looking for great writers and storytellers first and foremost--for their sake, too. I think they're missing out.

Tell them to check out people like David H. Burton, Daniel Pyle, LK Rigel, J.M. Pierce, and A.R. Williams (and many more ...).


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Another big issue is genre. Some genres are popular enough to hit the top 100 on Amazon, which almost automatically leads to a TON of sales (in the neighborhood of a thousand sales or more a day).

For example, I've never seen a traditional indie fantasy hit the top 100 in the Kindle store based on paid sales (David D. hit the top 100 after his book had been free for a while, but that's different because they used the free downloads to support his paid ranking). Michael J Sullivan hit #102. Recently, Michael G. Manning hit #103. But traditional (indie) fantasy apparently doesn't have enough readers to hit the top 100--I don't know a case where it's happened yet. On the flip side, when the big indie traditional fantasy series (Larson, Sullivan, Dalglish) take off, they're still capable of selling a ton of books. But it's a different ballgame compared to a thriller or paranormal romance that can hit the top 100 and sell a thousand copies a day. K.C. May's Kinshield Legacy has been doing incredibly well, and it's even at 99 cents (which tends to lead to more sales), but even that title hasn't been able to get really close to the top 100.

Traditional fantasy isn't a bad market, but the sales figures work differently compared to other genres, like apples and oranges.


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> I understand agents wanting to scoop up indies who are selling, but what created sales in the first place with ebooks may not lead to big sales in traditional publishing. Having good sales demonstrates a certain amount of writing and marketing savvy, though, and that makes perfect sense.


But what traditional publishing wants is high sales volume relative to promotion/distribution effort, and these are much bigger concerns than the perceived quality of the writing. By looking for indies that have achieved those sales figures, they get to pick someone up who has already done part of the promo/distro for them. Never underestimate what a lazy, feckless crowd most of them are. It isn't for nothing that there are so many con artists in publishing.

My feeling is that the stronger the indie market, the more the incompetents will be pushed out of publishing, leaving those agents, editors and publishers who truly add value (and yes, they do exist) by being involved. This means that indie writers who are making good sales should stick to being indies, and resist the lure of big bucks that just leads to the hook of lifetime percentages.


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Right now my books are #1 and #9 on the Last 90 Days List For Teen Books. I'm outselling the _Twilight_ series on the top twenty teen kindle downloads list. [/url]


 That's fantastic!!!


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with staying indie and some authors do a great job balancing both worlds.  Unless you're #1 on Amazon in your category or in the top 10 overall on Amazon, then ranking isn't as important to them as the number of sales you've racked up.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

It's about time agents and publishers did this. Their old model is stupid - only valuing writers and books that haven't been proven, and being condescending or dismissive toward indie authors. When I found out what "first rights" were, I laughed. Seriously THIS is what you and publishers care most about? 

I qualify for their interest, but I'm going to sit back and watch how this plays out. It kind of smells like they're in trouble.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Here's what's odd about this trend in which authors that sell 10,000+ ebooks (or whatever the number is) are getting interest from publishers.
> 
> 1) Low pricing typically leads to more sales. So, generally, a 99 cent author is going to be way ahead of a $4.95 author in terms of sales volume. That skews the results. On the flip side, it's possible to sell a ton of ebooks at higher prices.
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

I would love to take a stab at this. Unfortunately, at the rate I'm going (1 a month), you'll need to check back in 833.16 years!


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Hi Jeff!  (waves).  Good to see you here. 

It's been my theory for a while that publishers and agents are very interested in successful ebook authors.  There's something about good numbers (99 cents and algorithms notwithstanding) that can make an excellent selling point!


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Kinshield has sold over 15000 copies so far and has been selling really well (mostly in the 300 rankings) the last couple of months, and its sequel (out about a week) has made a big splash (dipped into the upper 200s this morning), but I'm not sure I want to go tradpub. I'm enjoying this ride quite a lot. Still, the prospect of getting into brick & mortar bookstores would make me positively giddy. I'd be interested in talking to someone, I guess. Just to see.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Hi Jeff,

You introduced me to an agent, and I was excited to have a phone meeting with him. I called him for the scheduled meeting, but he wasn't available--he was on another call. I waited twenty minutes for him to call me back, but he didn't. I called and spoke to his secretary or assistant. She said something along the lines of, "You're not doing anything else today, are you?" I said, in fact, I did have other plans, however, he could try to call me. I never received a follow-up email, phone call or anything. I found the entire encounter very strange.

Do you have any explanation?

Thanks,
Suzanne


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

And Jeff, I'm still interested in working with an agent.
And, as you know, I've sold over 10,000 books combined. 

Best,
Suzanne


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

I find this faintly horrifying.

If you are going to go the agent route, make a list of agents that interest you, query them, include information about your success. If you are truly a commercial success, you'll get an agent. You'll probably get several agent offers, in fact, which is what you want, because then you can talk to them and interview them and talk to clients. That's what you need to do, because you don't want an agent, you want a GOOD agent. A bad agent is the worst thing you can have at this point in your career. They'll screw things up and cost you money.

But agents who are trolling Kindleboards asking only for commercial success, and not mentioning genre, likes, et cetera--what are the chances that this agent is someone who is looking to find an author that they can really advocate for and help build a successful, multifaceted career?

No. That's someone who is looking to make a quick buck on the next hot thing before the zeitgeist shifts.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> I find this faintly horrifying.
> 
> If you are going to go the agent route, make a list of agents that interest you, query them, include information about your success. If you are truly a commercial success, you'll get an agent. You'll probably get several agent offers, in fact, which is what you want, because then you can talk to them and interview them and talk to clients. That's what you need to do, because you don't want an agent, you want a GOOD agent. A bad agent is the worst thing you can have at this point in your career. They'll screw things up and cost you money.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is a good point. I think most people are hoping the magic email fairy will deliver a huge book deal in the middle of the night, thus allowing them to forego any research or work. Along with Suzanne's experience, and this great point about needing to find someone who will be a good fit and working in your best interest, it's hard to imagine anything positive coming out of this.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> I find this faintly horrifying.
> 
> If you are going to go the agent route, make a list of agents that interest you, query them, include information about your success. If you are truly a commercial success, you'll get an agent. You'll probably get several agent offers, in fact, which is what you want, because then you can talk to them and interview them and talk to clients. That's what you need to do, *because you don't want an agent, you want a GOOD agent. A bad agent is the worst thing you can have at this point in your career. They'll screw things up and cost you money.**But agents who are trolling Kindleboards asking only for commercial success, and not mentioning genre*, likes, et cetera--what are the chances that this agent is someone who is looking to find an author that they can really advocate for and help build a successful, multifaceted career?
> 
> No. That's someone who is looking to make a quick buck on the next hot thing before the zeitgeist shifts.


Yes. They'll take anything that sells alot and they don't even want to do their own legwork (trolling).


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

@ Courtney, Good points.

I've had two agents, and I'm tired of the query route. Also, I know a number of writers who have been approached by good agents via kindleboards or their blogs, so I think this will be happening more. In fact, if I were an agent, I'd definitely be checking out kindleboards. Times are changing.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Yes. They'll take anything that sells alot and they don't even want to do their own legwork (trolling).


I agree. But it's not just the bottom feeders coming out to snap at the flies. The big agents and the established reputable agents are calling. Trident, Jenny Bent, etc.

Things are tough all over. Everyone's hurting, even the best agents in the business. So they've found the next new thing, the "sure thing," which, it's been pointed out, might not translate all that well.

You can't blame them. One thing they probably aren't looking at? Traditional query letters.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

J. Carson Black said:


> I agree. But it's not just the bottom feeders coming out to snap at the flies. The big agents and the established reputable agents are calling. Trident, Jenny Bent, etc.
> 
> Things are tough all over. Everyone's hurting, even the best agents in the business. So they've found the next new thing, the "sure thing," which, it's been pointed out, might not translate all that well.
> 
> You can't blame them. One thing they probably aren't looking at? Traditional query letters.


^^^
This


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## Iowagirl (Jul 17, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> I find this faintly horrifying.
> 
> If you are going to go the agent route, make a list of agents that interest you, query them, include information about your success. If you are truly a commercial success, you'll get an agent. You'll probably get several agent offers, in fact, which is what you want, because then you can talk to them and interview them and talk to clients. That's what you need to do, because you don't want an agent, you want a GOOD agent. A bad agent is the worst thing you can have at this point in your career. They'll screw things up and cost you money.
> 
> ...


Well said Courtney. I'm in total agreement.

Tracey


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## AnnaM (Jul 15, 2009)

modwitch said:


> I wouldn't be interested in an agent who wants a gatekeeper between them and the unwashed masses of 10K sales authors , and who can't figure out from my sales rank whether I've got the kind of numbers they're probably looking for.


^^ This. Why should I pay an agent to an agent? If an agent isn't smart enough to figure out, based on rank, which indies have hot sellers, then that agent isn't smart enough to represent me.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I think that literary agents have maybe missed the boat. There are plenty of actual publisher signings reported already and many have been creamed to go the trad way. Even foreign rights publishers are contacting authors direct.


As for the figure of 10,000, as someone said, would they have got there with a sale figure of $12.99. Harper Collins picked someone up in the UK who sold 5,000 copies of his POD book in his local town. I can understand that situation because POD doesn't come with a cheap sales tag. More recently they picked up the authors of Killing Cupid who sold mega figures at a retail price 45p in the UK, boosted with a TV appearance and a fantastic marketing campaign that got them on the press. I think that publishers are putting value on the marketing prowess of indie authors that break away from the pack rather than the price point of their books.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> I agree. But it's not just the bottom feeders coming out to snap at the flies. The big agents and the established reputable agents are calling. Trident, Jenny Bent, etc.
> 
> ...You can't blame them. One thing they probably aren't looking at? Traditional query letters.


Yes J Carson, as recently evidenced good agents/publishers are looking for solid prospects and it sure does beat weeding through the old slushpile to determine whether a title may or may not sell to publishers or readers.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

AnnaM said:


> ^^ This. Why should I pay an agent to an agent? If an agent isn't smart enough to figure out, based on rank, which indies have hot sellers, then that agent isn't smart enough to represent me.


Ranking doesn't tell the whole story. I've sold about 60,000 books since the first of the year, and right now, my ranking sucks. Maybe at some point today I will sell 20 books and my rank will be reasonable. Some days I'll sell a few books in an hour and my ranking shoots up. The way that the ranking is done, it is a snapshot in time, not a true reflection of how many books you have sold, or how popular your books are.

I haven't had anyone approach me, and for weeks, I was in the teens in my little categories and in the top 250 in all of Kindle (all books).

Sheila


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> You introduced me to an agent, and I was excited to have a phone meeting with him. I called him for the scheduled meeting, but he wasn't available--he was on another call. I waited twenty minutes for him to call me back, but he didn't. I called and spoke to his secretary or assistant. She said something along the lines of, "You're not doing anything else today, are you?" I said, in fact, I did have other plans, however, he could try to call me. I never received a follow-up email, phone call or anything. I found the entire encounter very strange.
> 
> ...


This kind of feedback is the kiss of death. If I were the OP, I would tell the agent to make it right with Suzanne or else this story will hound them and their efforts.

Further, the last kind of agent I would want to deal with would be one using an intermediary to hide their identity. Something smells about this.

I've worked with agents and editors at the Big 6 and legit operations don't do cloak and dagger BS only to blow people off.

ETA: For those who want an agent, don't rely on a thread like this to make it happen. Pitch agents you've screened, not the man behind the curtain playing power games. This is a business and your business partners should be selected more carefully than this opportunity.

M


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## AnnaM (Jul 15, 2009)

_Sheila_ said:


> Ranking doesn't tell the whole story. I've sold about 60,000 books since the first of the year, and right now, my ranking sucks. Maybe at some point today I will sell 20 books and my rank will be reasonable. Some days I'll sell a few books in an hour and my ranking shoots up. The way that the ranking is done, it is a snapshot in time, not a true reflection of how many books you have sold, or how popular your books are.
> 
> I haven't had anyone approach me, and for weeks, I was in the teens in my little categories and in the top 250 in all of Kindle (all books).
> 
> Sheila


A good agent will track books of interest on a service such as novelrank.com (or their own proprietary, inhouse rank tracking system); they can track every new indie book released, so they can see your rank change over time. it's easy to do, as Amazon assigns a unique number to each book (ASIN), and each book can be called up using this number. New books are simply new numbers (and any competent analyst can check for new numbers daily or weekly).

Not a big deal. If agents aren't smart enough to do this (or hire an analyst to create their system), then they aren't smart enough to be my agent. What does it say about their ability to market ebooks if they can't handle such a simple task. I mean, think about it, they are asking a third party to troll author boards to find out who has sold more than 10,000 books?

Pffft. There are easy, more accurate, more sophisticated ways to get this info. I mean, we could all say we've sold over 10,000 books -- how do they know we aren't lying? They should be relying on real numbers generated by the 
Amazon system, and these can be derived, with a fair degree of accuracy, from ranking over time stats.

What a bunch of novices.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I just want to mention that the agent Jeff connected me with is the founding agent of an extremely reputable agency with offices in New York and LA.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Jeff Rivera said:


> There's nothing wrong with staying indie and some authors do a great job balancing both worlds. Unless you're #1 on Amazon in your category or in the top 10 overall on Amazon, then ranking isn't as important to them as the number of sales you've racked up.


And there you go. It goes to show that if your top (and only) goal is to land a traditional publisher through self-publishing, you should price everything at 99 cents, because (perhaps with some exceptions) the only thing most of these people care about is sales numbers. It's not sales relative to price or genre. It's not an analysis of whether the things that made the author successful as an indie would translate to traditional publishing. It's just 'show me the sales.'

That said, any agent actually worth having would consider the whole picture. I'm sure there are some who are smart enough to not set a fixed number of sales as the requirement for their interest.


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> You introduced me to an agent, and I was excited to have a phone meeting with him. I called him for the scheduled meeting, but he wasn't available--he was on another call. I waited twenty minutes for him to call me back, but he didn't. I called and spoke to his secretary or assistant. She said something along the lines of, "You're not doing anything else today, are you?" I said, in fact, I did have other plans, however, he could try to call me. I never received a follow-up email, phone call or anything. I found the entire encounter very strange.
> 
> ...


What mrv01d said, plus - pretty much equates with everything else I hear about the industry. He probably wasn't on another call. He was probably on a long lunch or looking at pr0n.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

I've heard of authors who have agents that genuinely care about the work they put out. The kind of agents who get involved and help advise the author on a career path. That's about the only part of the agent model that I find appealing - the wise, old man/woman to offer longtime perspective.

But more often than not, I hear of agents who only want the cheap buck. To them, I say 'no, thank you'! I can make a buck on my own - and on my own terms. Not to sound haughty, but if I'm a good enough author, they'll come to me. You tell me 'show me the sales,' I tell them 'show me the money.'


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Jeff Rivera said:


> That's fantastic!!!


Thank you Jeff.

I've met several agents at writer's conferences and have even turned down publishing house contracts. Why? Because they offered me POD (print on Demand) not X amount on the book shelves. I can do POD myself.

If I sign with an agent, it's because they think they can get me a contract where they offer a big enough advance, and guarantee placement in all 749? Barnes & Nobles or Sam's Club/Walmarts.

Is this because I have a big ego? No, But rather it wouldn't make sense to sign for any other reason. I can just as easily self-publish and place my books on store shelves myself, and keep all the money, forever.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Another reason I would sign with an agent and/or publisher: You are generally only signing for the one series, not everything you write. If I can get a contract that gets my books in many of the brick and mortars--it's free publicity for "my brand". The strength of my writing is building a fan base so my concern is getting future fans exposed to my books.

I don't have to sign for more than one series, and I have three more in the planning, editing, writing stages right now.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> I just want to mention that the agent Jeff connected me with is the founding agent of an extremely reputable agency with offices in New York and LA.


Couldn't pay me to work with them, not after seeing really great agents at work. It's not the size of the agency, nor the prestige, it's how they use it that counts.

M


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

Hmmm, yeah, how long does this offer last?  I only started focusing solely on my epublishing this year and, over the past few months, have sold over 1400 books, which is huge for me...and growing.  But it may take a while for me to reach the 10,000 books level.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

AnnaM said:


> What a bunch of novices.


I am a novice - and I appreciate the information. 

Sheila


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

In this day and age I find it a bit outdated that an agent wouldn't take 30 seconds, register, then introduce himself/herself rather than use a proxy. No offense to Jeff who seems like a nice chap but what Suzanne posted deserves a professional response.


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## DDScott (Aug 13, 2010)

No offense, Jeff, but this thread topic just sent huge, HUGE alarm bells to ringin' in my head!!!

So what does this mean...

Agents now have head-hunters?

I think two words come to mind for me...

Trolling and Poaching

Basically, you've added an additional level of gatekeeping to the entire process...which none of us need another gatekeeper.

I must ask...what's in this for you?

Are you getting a finder's fee?

If so, that should be explained in your post and acknowledged upfront.

All this said, I have an agent and am continuing on with my Indie Epub Career...so your offer does not affect me.  However, I'll be honest, I'm terrified for those it does...


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> @ Courtney, Good points.
> 
> I've had two agents, and I'm tired of the query route. Also, I know a number of writers who have been approached by good agents via kindleboards or their blogs, so I think this will be happening more. In fact, if I were an agent, I'd definitely be checking out kindleboards. Times are changing.


I agree with Suzanne. Barbour just dropped its whole book club line. Many agents are too busy trying to get contracts for authors they've developed relationships with and are trying to sell those clients work to a shrinking market.
Finding authors who have a fan base, and are prolific, is important if those agents want to remain agents. The years of waiting for an author who takes a year or two to produce one literary masterpiece are over. Readers don't read just one book every two years.


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## Tonya (Feb 21, 2011)

This really scares me. Not that agent's are trolling the Kindle boards, but Indie authors are falling for this! I'm all for indie authors to sign with an agent if that is what is they want for their career. But there is something to be said for an agent who doesn't take the time to properly do THEIR job, and not lazily ask someone like "Jeff" to find them clients. That is a red flag to me. If an agent isn't going to find their next client, they certainly won't fight to get your books in a publishing house. 
So since my little book, CARPE BEAD 'EM, is on Amazon's Movers and Shakers list at #2 and only sold a few thousands is laughable in the eyes of these agents? The joke is on them. Numbers are just that. There is something to be said for a great book. 
There are questions to be asked, due diligence to be made! I recently posted on my grog site, The Writer's Guide to EPublishing about this subject.

http://thewritersguidetoepublishing.com/kindle-trolling

And Jeff...tell us about Suzanne and how you helped her...it doesn't seem like you did.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Tell them to check out people like David H. Burton, Daniel Pyle, LK Rigel, J.M. Pierce, and A.R. Williams (and many more ...).


David Burton has an agent already.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Let this be a lesson to any other agent-trolls who think KB is filled with a bunch of suckers. The people here have overwhelmingly called "Jeff"'s bluff!


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

For those who maybe don't understand why this particular 'agent' is not a good deal. Agents have been online for years. Using their real names and talking to people directly. The use of intermediaries is highly unusual and not a common business practice.

If an agent can't be bothered to personally connect with someone they want to sign and can't be bothered to answer the phone when they ask you to call, that is exactly what they are going to do with your book and writing career.  It's not going to get better.

I've had extensive, personal attention from agents who decided to pass on my work. I would bet this 'agent' doesn't even bother with a form rejection.

M


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Finding authors who have a fan base, and are prolific, is important if those agents want to remain agents. *The years of waiting for an author who takes a year or two to produce one literary masterpiece are over.* Readers don't read just one book every two years.


I disagree with the bold part. Authors aren't going to spend a year to write great books anymore? That's an incredibly bold statement, and I can't imagine how it could be true.

I look around the genre I write in, and Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, and George R.R. Martin are hitting the #1 spot on the NYT Bestseller list with their big works. They take anywhere from 1-6 years to write their books. There's Steven Erickson, Peter V. Brett, Scott Lynch, etc. There will continue to be writers like this in the future. Some writers are more prolific and some write books in a year or three. I don't see any reason to believe that that's going to change. Readers will continue to buy books from authors they love, even if they have to wait a year or two.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> I disagree with the bold part. Authors aren't going to spend a year to write great books anymore? That's an incredibly bold statement, and I can't imagine how it could be true.
> 
> I look around the genre I write in, and Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, and George R.R. Martin are hitting the #1 spot on the NYT Bestseller list with their big works. They take anywhere from 1-6 years to write their books. There's Steven Erickson, Peter V. Brett, Scott Lynch, etc. There will continue to be writers like this in the future. Some writers are more prolific and some write books in a year or three. I don't see any reason to believe that that's going to change. Readers will continue to buy books from authors they love, even if they have to wait a year or two.


I'm talking about the agents being able to wait on a few heavy-hitters for their paycheck. You're taking my sentence out of context. Agents are now starting to look for prolific authors too. I have one friend who used to get 60K as an advance--regularly. She can't get that now. Matter of fact, there is no guarantee they'll even buy her next book. Agents could have 40-100 authors like her in the past, authors who take a year or two to publish and make a living. With advances shrinking, smaller presses going POD, this method of agenting is no longer working.


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## Christopher Smith (Aug 3, 2010)

I agree with Moses.

I have Patrick Rothfuss' agent, who is terrific.  We are working together on my next book, which is being guided by what Matt believes will be a thriller editors will respond to.  After nearly 30 years in the business, he knows these editors well and he knows what they're seeking.  His advice has been invaluable.  And, yes, he will wait until the book is finished because, to quote him, "I'm in it for the long haul, Chris."  This book could take a year to complete.  And Matt will be there.

This whole thing sounded fishy from the start, so I decided to investigate.  I sent Jeff a note earlier saying I was interested because I was disenfranchised with my current situation (hardly).  I was immediately contacted by a certain Frank from a certain NYC agency that handles big celebrity clients.  Frank is the president of that agency.  He wanted to talk ASAP because, you know, presidents of large agencies have that kind of time on their hands.  I responded to Frank, asking when I should call him.  And guess what?  Never heard a word from him.

I wonder why?

Then I Googled Frank and what I found on one board was a thread dedicated to him.  It wasn't flattering.  In fact, the board was telling people to stay far away from him.

So.  That's what I learned.  What's going on here?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> This whole thing sounded fishy from the start, *so I decided to investigate.* I sent Jeff a note earlier saying I was interested because I was disenfranchised with my current situation (hardly). I was immediately contacted by a certain Frank from a certain NYC agency that handles big celebrity clients. Frank is the president of that agency. He wanted to talk ASAP because, you know, presidents of large agencies have that kind of time on their hands. I responded to Frank, asking when I should call him. And guess what? Never heard a word from him.


If you ever get tired of writing, I think you'd make a swell private eye!


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)




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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

If the guy has a bad rep, give his name.  Predators don't deserve anonymity.

M


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'm talking about the agents being able to wait on a few heavy-hitters for their paycheck. You're taking my sentence out of context. Agents are now starting to look for prolific authors too. I have one friend who used to get 60K as an advance--regularly. She can't get that now. Matter of fact, there is no guarantee they'll even buy her next book. Agents could have 40-100 authors like her in the past, authors who take a year or two to publish and make a living. With advances shrinking, smaller presses going POD, this method of agenting is no longer working.


To me, that's a little different than what you said before--and so I don't think I took your sentence out of context. But no big deal. Kumbaya.

The market is changing dramatically for agents, and lower royalties throughout the industry are a big part of that. But there's still a place for authors who take a year to write a really good book. An agent can still have clients like that, because they're hoping to represent authors who go big. And some (not all) authors will need a year to write a great book.

But I agree that an author who can put out 2 or more books a year is even more attractive to agents. There is a lot of pressure to write more, faster.


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

Poor old "Jeff". I thought that looked like a stock photo. I'm really starting to enjoy this thread. I wonder if we could get him to take a photo of himself holding a fish


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I agree you have to do your homework when it comes to finding an agent. Pick up the latest copy of the _Writer's Market_. Check out their reputation in the industry. An agent is not a magic bullet. 
Again, my line was taken out of context. Agents will be adding to their client base, prolific authors. The old methods aren't working so well anymore. Their job is evolving. I do think more reputable (and disreputable) agents will be looking towards self-published authors who can produce quickly (think sphagetti westerns). 
Of course, works that take longer will have a place in the market, but that is not what we were discussing. We were talking about how agents are operating. I have a book I've been working on almost two years and it's still not ready. I'm not saying rush to the marketplace. I am saying they will start looking for authors who have fan bases and quality work, who can put out two or more books a year. Quantity is going to replace the loss of large advances on books.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)




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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Harry Dewulf said:


> Poor old "Jeff". I thought that looked like a stock photo. I'm really starting to enjoy this thread. I wonder if we could get him to take a photo of himself holding a fish


Jeff Rivera is a real author. He has been approached by agents that may or may not be reputable, but I think he means well. That is not stock art. You can find pictures of him attending writing conferences and award ceremonies.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> But agents who are trolling Kindleboards asking only for commercial success, and not mentioning genre, likes, et cetera--what are the chances that this agent is someone who is looking to find an author that they can really advocate for and help build a successful, multifaceted career?
> 
> No. That's someone who is looking to make a quick buck on the next hot thing before the zeitgeist shifts.


I tend to agree with Courtney on this one. It is not unheard of for agents to approach authors-- we've all heard of it happening. I had two rather good agents approach me back when I was a small press author. But neither of them approached me because of my sales, but rather because they'd read my work and liked it. Having an agent who's behind you and who really loves your work can be a good thing. Having an agent who sees you more as a moneymaker seems a bit iffy.


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## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

Why would I want to go with an agent and trad publisher and share my profits, not to mention having to do things their way?

Sorry, not gonna go there. I'm doing all the hard work myself, so I should get all the rewards, along with Azon and those who are my real partners. Don't need any parasites.


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

I can understand why some people are suspicious. It's not every day that someone offers to help with no strings attached. But for those who have any doubts, like I said, just Google my name "Jeff Rivera" or ask Joe Konrath, Karen McQuestion or James Patterson or Seth Godin or Mark Victor Hansen for that matter, what they think of me. Seriously, email them and ask them.  (I hate to drop names but I'm trying to make a point).

For those with an open mind, and who think this might be an option for them, feel free to email me.  

For those who are not so open about it, that's fine, but consider this: there's nothing wrong with continuing to go Indie. In my opinion, this is the future. However, the old-model agents and publishers are opening their minds to possibillites beyond the slush pile and perhaps you can open your minds too. 

You need to start thinking of print rights as yet another right that you can sell. For example, you can still continue to sell your ebooks on Kindle and sell the print rights to a Publisher or have an agent sell the film rights, or the foreign rights, etc.  Open your mind to the possibilities.

As far as those who think that agents have 'sunk a new low by "trolling" Kindleboards', I'd have to disagree. Most who have been in the business awhile, know how busy agents are and they don't have time to search everyone's ranking on Kindle or search every single message board.  They do, however, take suggestions from people like me, who have screened prospects.

If you're mad at the industry for having rejected you in the past, I don't blame you. I was rejected by over 20 publishers before I landed my first book deal. Everyone has been. It's part of the journey.

No, I'm not charging anyone for this. No, I'm not getting some under-the-table dirty back-of-the-room deal for doing this.

One of the agents interested in self-published authors, sold the film rights to the book that became the Clint Eastwood film, Flags of Our Fathers. So, even if you don't want to give up your book rights, you might open to having a film agent represent you.

Just something to think about and I respect and support which ever path you choose.


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## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

I know you weren't pointing a finger at me specifically, but I'm not a bitter reject, I've never even approached an agent or publisher to be rejected. I would quit my day job if I didn't enjoy it so much (flyfishing guide), as my sales are doing really well.

But why sell print rights when you can go with Createspace and also the extended Azon plan and get all the profits? Agents are SO passe (just my not so humble opinion). Writers can do it all themselves now.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Jeff,

I don't think you're running a scam. I believe that several heavy hitter agents have asked you to keep an eye out for successful indies. They're busy, I get that. However, I do see a couple of problems with this whole setup.

When my book hit the NYT's best seller list, Jenny Bent contacted me and asked for a copy. She read my book in a day or two. She's busy, but she took the time to read it to see if she could stand behind it and give it all she could. She emailed and said unfortunately it wasn't for her. I gained a lot of respect for her, even thought I didn't end up working with her. An agent needs to have passion about what they represent.

The problem with this scenario is if the agents don't have time to read the manuscripts "behind the scenes" so to speak, and then contact the authors when they are ready to sign them, you're going to have situations like what happened with Suzanne. She's ready to talk but the agent isn't passionate enough about her work to make the time to chat with her.

My suggestion? Stick around, watch the threads where people talk about sales, see for yourself who is successful. Don't message the author. Just suggest to the agents who you think would be good. (Maybe even read the book before hand, though, as a filter.) The agents can then read the book and if they are interested, they can email the author.

Don't just go by sales, like Moses suggests. It takes time to build sales. If you find a great indie who hasn't sold 10,000 ebooks, all the better, the market isn't saturated yet.

Just my three cents worth. (Inflation, ya know.)

Vicki


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Hi Christopher, you might want to check your spam/bulk box just in case. It looks like he actually emailed you and CC'd me immediately back within the hour trying to connect with you.
> 
> I doubt anyone said anything bad about his reputation as he's pretty reputable. They might have said that he didn't respond immediately or they were rejected by him or took to long to read their manuscript or something like that but they could never say he wasn't legitimate. Look up 99% of the legitimate agencies and agents on writers' message boards and everyone says the same thing about all of them. That's the nature of agents, they're super busy so it takes them way longer than anyone would hope for to get back to them. Hope this helps some but you can always email me privately if you have any additional questions or concerns.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"The way that the ranking is done, it is a snapshot in time, not a true reflection of how many books you have sold, or how popular your books are."_

Every ranking system has to have some time factor. If the time is infinite, then the classics would dominate all the lists since they have sold the most books. Anyone care to compete with _Huckleberry Finn_ on the best seller list? _Moby Dick_? _Grapes of Wrath_?


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## Andrew Davis (Aug 5, 2011)

Food for thought:

If the train stays on the track, the Kindle platform, and the current---as well as later additions to the system---marketing and promotional opportunities offered on KindleBoards are gonna render traditional paper publishing of fiction obsolete. 

It won't be long before only the work of top-dog fiction writers who are financially proven and can pull guaranteed large-sum contracts will grace the pages of a paper book. Even then, the price will continue to escalate out of control because of market pressures.  Paper is on the way out, folks, and everyone might as well get over it. The age of the independent writer is here, and he/she no longer needs traditional publishing, or, an agent to pitch for them.

Kindle, other electronic readers, and sites like Kindleboards have opened the success door to good writers who couldn't/haven't/can't/never will get even a breath of air from traditional publishing. No longer do good writers have to rely on agents and publishers who once had a buyers market monopoly to determine if their work is worth publishing---Remember when agents didn't want "Clan of the Cave Bear" and thousands of other later-to-be blockbuster books? So much for the wisdom of agents and publishers.

In the growing electronic marketplace, the people who determine if a writer's work is good and whether it sells is the person who actually puts up the money to purchase: The Reader. Now, the readers and the writers are the ones on the dance floor, and it's the agents and the publishers who have to cut in.

Also, I question whether someone who sells 10,000 copies of a book on Kindle needs an agent to pitch the book to a traditional publisher, who at the drop of a hat if the market/sales/press/you name it, blinks will let it slide into obscurity without so much as an apology.

And, the electronic marketplace allows agents to sit on the sidelines and watch for the top-selling electronic books to make the big plays on the field before they make their move. This is the equivalent of how lions work the herds on the Serengeti, only in reverse. 

If you're good, and your work is selling on Kindle, unless you need someone to do the leg work on a Hollywood deal, I question why you need someone now who wouldn't give you the time of day when you actually needed them?

Lottery winners learn this lesson: The people they don't need always seem to show up when the money does. So it goes in publishing.


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> In fact, if I were an agent, I'd definitely be checking out kindleboards. Times are changing.


I refrained from commenting earlier, since it seems I've yakked a lot today on the boards and already commented once on a post about agents. But wtf. I've never been known to hold my tongue.

Suzanne is exactly right. Any agent who truly wanted to check out potential new clients would be doing the legwork himself, not asking someone who "has a list of hundreds of agents he's in touch with" to troll the boards and suck people into having false hopes that they might be the next Amanda Hocking. That is shameless and wrong in so many ways. I'll stop short of calling it a scam, but the line is pretty darned thin right now.

Agents watch these boards. A good agent, if he's interested, will contact you directly, he will not send someone out to leave a general invitation on a chat board. A good agent will answer his phone if a meeting has been arranged. And a good agent won't mind if his name is mentioned on this board or any other...that's how they get clients, especially... ESPECIALLY when an author has proved they can be successful on their own, to the tune of 10,000 sales, WITHOUT his help.

grrr.


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## annerallen (Jun 12, 2011)

Like Chris Smith, D.D. Scott and some of the writers here, I didn't like the sound of this, so I checked with Writer Beware. It turns out Jeff is legit, and everything he says he is. He has worked as a "middleman" before between agents and writers, but in those days the writers paid him. Unorthodox, but not necessarily scammy.

"Frank" is legit, too, although he plays things close to the chest and doesn't join in the usual agent info sites. 

But I still warn writers to be wary. "Powerhouse agencies" with "celebrity clients" can still be bad for your career. They may have non-compete clauses in their contracts, or ask for a piece of your copyright (forever!) Make sure you run any contract by a lawyer. Agents are running scared these days and fear has made some of them pretty predatory.

I still think the best way to find an agent--if you want one--is to send a query. Yes, they still have interns who read every letter, and they do sign new authors all the time. 

Are they more likely to sign an indie author with a great sales record? You betcha! So if you want an agent, why not pick ones you like and query them, instead of blindly connecting with some guy who only looks at sales numbers, not genre, style or personal compatibility factors? 

Bottom line advice from Writer Beware "I don't think there's any harm in authors contacting him, but they shouldn't get their hopes up too high"


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

The name dropping.

Subtle undermining of those who are critical.

Telling lots of people what they want to hear.

Nice stuff. I'm sure someone will bite.

So James Patterson et al would be happy to know you're associating his name with an agent who refuses to speak for themselves, can't be bothered to return calls and has a shaky reputation to boot? 

Must be some friendship you have.

M


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## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

Andrew Davis said:


> Food for thought:
> 
> If the train stays on the track, the Kindle platform, and the current---as well as later additions to the system---marketing and promotional opportunities offered on KindleBoards are gonna render traditional paper publishing of fiction obsolete.
> 
> ...


Read Andrew's post every time you're tempted to contact an agent. He's 100% right on. The tables have turned, folks.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Rusty Bigfoot said:


> Read Andrew's post every time you're tempted to contact an agent. He's 100% right on. The tables have turned, folks.


Agreed!


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

annerallen said:


> Like Chris Smith, D.D. Scott and some of the writers here, I didn't like the sound of this, so I checked with Writer Beware. It turns out Jeff is legit, and everything he says he is. He has worked as a "middleman" before between agents and writers, but in those days the writers paid him. Unorthodox, but not necessarily scammy.
> 
> "Frank" is legit, too, although he plays things close to the chest and doesn't join in the usual agent info sites.
> 
> ...


Can you share the link? I can't find it on the site for some reason.

M


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## annerallen (Jun 12, 2011)

mrv--the link to Writer Beware is <http://accrispin.blogspot.com/> The info I have is from a personal email in response to my question about this post. You'll find Victoria Strauss's contact info on the site if you want to ask more questions. She says she has had many complaints about the agent identified as "Frank" here. He tends to sign authors, send out two or three submissions and then leave them hanging.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

AnnaM said:


> A good agent will track books of interest on a service such as novelrank.com


I just went to Novelrank.com, and learned that I had sold 302 books in July. It was off by more than 2000 books. I don't know that I would trust an agent who used it, quite frankly, in just that short little test.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

annerallen said:


> mrv--the link to Writer Beware is <http://accrispin.blogspot.com/> The info I have is from a personal email in response to my question about this post. You'll find Victoria Strauss's contact info on the site if you want to ask more questions. She says she has had many complaints about the agent identified as "Frank" here. He tends to sign authors, send out two or three submissions and then leave them hanging.


Thanks I was ending on the SFWA site which also comes up for Writer Beware.

I am so shocked to hear about Frank's poor reputation. I would have never thought he had any issues being professional /sarcasm/

M


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

I once got an agent through e-mail. One day, I opened my e-mail, and there she was. She wanted to know if I would like her to translate Threads into Italian. I forwarded her e-mail to my US agent, who got the paperwork together, and got me signed with her. She later sold Threads to Italy's biggest publisher. I got an advance that was missing a 30% chunk because I was now paying two agents.

The reason I'm saying this is because things like that do happen. I also got three movie option offers through e-mail, and signed one. It fell through, but I still have the bragging rights. 

The thing is, though, I was hand-picked. That is definitely going to happen to some of you too. So don't blow off an offer just because it seems too good to be true. Check it out. If it falls through, you still have bragging rights.

The thing that I find disturbing about this is the very suddenly-opened door to "legitimate" agents. I have to believe that they are still bombarded by query letters from indie authors who are blasting them with sales figures. Why do these agents need to go fishing? Why don't they just find a book they love, and contact the author, if they're desperate? They can use whatever criteria they like - samples abound! Most agents say they know within the first paragraph whether or not they'll like a book, right? Some say "the first sentence." 

Maybe the publishing industry wants bragging rights too. Maybe they just want to lure us to the dark side. Hard to say. 

It may be legitimate - sometimes things are. But keep your wits about you and, as someone said, if you've sold 10,000 copies you probably don't need an agent.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Nell Gavin said:


> I once got an agent through e-mail. One day, I opened my e-mail, and there she was. She wanted to know if I would like her to translate Threads into Italian. I forwarded her e-mail to my US agent, who got the paperwork together, and got me signed with her. She later sold Threads to Italy's biggest publisher. I got an advance that was missing a 30% chunk because I was now paying two agents.
> 
> The reason I'm saying this is because things like that do happen. I also got three movie option offers through e-mail, and signed one. It fell through, but I still have the bragging rights.
> 
> ...


Yes there are legit agents, who, like your situation, contact you directly, or your agent, if you have one. They don't essentially sockpuppet on forums, using spokespeople who used to take money for agent-writer matchmaking.

I am deeply concerned for the writers who don't have the experience to see the distinction.

M


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

There is a huge difference between belief and reality. The reality is that self-published authors should not try to negotiate their own films rights. Why? Because the movie industry has a history of taking advantage of suckers who thought everyone was operating in the screenwriter or author's best interests. It's a thriving industry, and they know how to legally exploit you. See Forest Gump. Sometimes, you can fight back like Stan Lee's lawsuit against the producers of Spiderman, but you aren't Stan Lee. Find a good agent.

Also, agents can help you with foreign rights. And I don't care how awesome you think self-publishing will be, you are talking about the publication industry here which has an outstanding history of dominating the market. They still dominate the best seller lists. They still have millions more dollars for advertising, editing, etc., and they have professionals that can supplement and augment your platform building. Traditional publishing is like a cruise ship. Goes really fast in one direction, but it is a bitch to turn it around 90 degrees--and that's why self publishers can find a great opportunity right now. The ship isn't even in full turn yet. But when it does, all that capital and experience will be focused in a new direction. If you can utilize their momentum, capital, and abundance of professionals, then do so, but just proceed with caution and full understanding. Ask for help on these forums or others.

An agent can be invaluable in giving feedback and keeping your brand building focused. And once you get to the level of sales that Jeff is looking for, one of the chief problems for authors is the worry about how to maintain the brand and platform. An agent has experience that can keep that boosted. The trick is finding an agent that will put in the effort and knows what they are doing.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

rexjameson said:


> There is a huge difference between belief and reality. The reality is that self-published authors should not try to negotiate their own films rights. Why? Because the movie industry has a history of taking advantage of suckers who thought everyone was operating in the screenwriter or author's best interests. It's a thriving industry, and they know how to legally exploit you. See Forest Gump. Sometimes, you can fight back like Stan Lee's lawsuit against the producers of Spiderman, but you aren't Stan Lee. Find a good agent.
> 
> Also, agents can help you with foreign rights. And I don't care how awesome you think self-publishing will be, you are talking about the publication industry here which has an outstanding history of dominating the market. They still dominate the best seller lists. They still have millions more dollars for advertising, editing, etc., and they have professionals that can supplement and augment your platform building. Traditional publishing is like a battleship. Goes really fast in one direction, but it is a bitch to turn it around 90 degrees--and that's why self publishers can find a great opportunity right now. The ship isn't even in full turn yet. But when it does, all that capital and experience will be focused in a new direction. If you can utilize their momentum, capital, and abundance of professionals, then do so, but just proceed with caution and full understanding. Ask for help on these forums or others.
> 
> An agent can be invaluable in giving feedback and keeping your brand building focused. And once you get to the level of sales that Jeff is looking for, one of the chief problems for authors is the worry about how to maintain the brand and platform. An agent has experience that can keep that boosted. The trick is finding an agent that will put in the effort and knows what they are doing.


Here's the thing about that. A good lawyer can do the same thing, with movie option rights and translation rights. And you aren't their indentured servant because you pay them a la carte.

As for feedback, I don't know that my US agent was "invaluable." She was very often snarky, and never sold a thing. Everything she made her 15% from was an offer I forwarded to her, that came directly to me.

Finding a good agent is like finding a good shrink. If you EVEN can get an appointment, you still end up paying through the nose to find out whether or not you're a good fit. If you're not, they still want their share, and you're the worse for it.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm going to offer an apology here.  I called Trident Media a big agency, and it is.  But I've since heard some things about them that make them anything but reputable.  I know a lot of people who are signed with Trident, but I don't know what their situations are.  I was "being considered" by two agencies a couple of years ago.  Trident and the agency I'm with.  I'm sure as hell glad I ended up with the agent I have, who is pure class.

There are a lot of folks out there, good and bad, coming after the indies.  I call it "The Inbox Syndrome."  I guess it's a good idea to be really, really careful, even when it comes to a name as big as Trident Media.  After all, Goldman-Sachs is a big name, too.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Nell Gavin said:


> I just went to Novelrank.com, and learned that I had sold 302 books in July. It was off by more than 2000 books. I don't know that I would trust an agent who used it, quite frankly, in just that short little test.


I've looked at that a couple of times and can't quite figure out where they get their numbers. It claims that my book, The Righteous sold its last copy 102 days, 8 hours ago. That would be in April, a month when the book was in the top 20 at one point. It has the current ranking (3,015) more or less correct, but apparently that translates into 0 sales?


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

The times, they are a'changin', folks.

I'm not at all surprised that agents might come looking in a place like the WC for potential clients. I have to laugh at some of the comments here that imply traditional publishing is dying. Let's be clear, here, folks. James Patterson is not worried that he will be replaced by a $2.99 indie author. S&S are not worried that they won't be able to pay their electric bill. Anyone who thinks that is the case is fooling himself (or herself).

Traditional publishing is _changing,_ that's completely different. Also changing are the agent's roles in the acquisition of talent.

Jeff is legit. Frank is legit. The hostility in this thread is, honestly, unwarranted.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

J. Carson Black said:


> I'm going to offer an apology here. I called Trident Media a big agency, and it is. But I've since heard some things about them that make them anything but reputable. I know a lot of people who are signed with Trident, but I don't know what their situations are. I was "being considered" by two agencies a couple of years ago. Trident and the agency I'm with. I'm sure as hell glad I ended up with the agent I have, who is pure class.
> 
> There are a lot of folks out there, good and bad, coming after the indies. I call it "The Inbox Syndrome." I guess it's a good idea to be really, really careful, even when it comes to a name as big as Trident Media. After all, Goldman-Sachs is a big name, too.


Trident was my agency with The Righteous. I had my choice of four or five agents and chose them, in part because they were heavy hitters. And my agent had zero problem getting top editors to read and nearly scared up a deal. However, when that first round failed, she didn't want to follow up on requests for rewrites, or look to smaller houses. A big agency with a big midtown highrise office needs to do big deals. As a writer, of course I'd have loved a big deal, but I was most interested in seeing my book in print.

Of course, it all turned out for the best in the end, but it sure seemed like I'd made a mistake at the time. I am now very happy with my boutique agency.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Their sales are way off, but their sales rank reporting is pretty accurate.


NovelRank gets its sales rank directly from Amazon, just as anyone else can, so naturally it's an accurate number. They guess about sales, and as the numbers get higher, the sales figures get further and further off. They do say this pretty clearly in their FAQ:



> Book sales estimates are still estimates, and for books selling a low volume ( less than 100 copies a month for instance ) the estimates are most likely accurate within 1%. In the end, it is all based on sales rank changes rather than sales numbers, and NovelRank should not be used to dispute hard sales figures from publishers or Amazon.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> Jeff is legit. Frank is legit. The hostility in this thread is, honestly, unwarranted.


That's good to know. Seriously - it is. I just think that, if I were an agent, I might look at Amazon rankings, read some samples, and contact writers directly if they sold books, and I was interested. I don't think it would serve my purposes to open the door WIDE and ask for submissions. And then not be available.


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## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> Jeff is legit. Frank is legit. The hostility in this thread is, honestly, unwarranted.


The hostility is basically a backlash against agents in general, not Jeff/Frank personally. I hope they don't take it that way. Writers are fed up with being the creative talent and treated like poor beggars. Agents are as much to blame as anyone. Why wouldn't a writer who can row his/her own boat not do so? And why not be angry at an agent that comes to them saying, "Look, if you're a success why not come with me and I'll show you how to make less money by getting involved with the old paradigm?" Sorry, not interested. It's the same old story, the agent comes and says, "You create a winning product and I'll make sure you get involved with people who are looking out for their own best interests, not yours." We don't need these people any more, we can do it ourselves. It's a new world where you get ahead by your talent, not by who you happen to know and brown-nose. New York can take a long long hike.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

I think agents are relevant, but the relevant agents aren't doing what's being done here.

What the future holds for agents, I can't say, but, as of now, they are still provide value.

My hostility here is entirely about the lack of transparent business practices. That's a really great way to suck in innocent artists. Frankly, I'm surprised the board allows this kind of secret third party solicitation. The only one who is served by the OP is the agent and the OP, not the author or KB. In fact, KB is now potentially giving space to predatory business practices. 

M


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" I have to laugh at some of the comments here that imply traditional publishing is dying."_

Publishing is an industry and they usually don't disappear. They adapt. Buggy whips are gone, but leather goods are thriving. Music, travel, and securities trading all faced the disruptive innovations from the internet, yet the industries thrive today.

What are in far greater danger of death are the individual companies within the industry, and the existing patterns and practices of the industry. Lots of them can die while the industry remains. Some existing firms will adapt, survive, and thrive. Start-ups will muscle in and take market share. Other existing firms will die. But the industry continues. It may look very different from today, but it will still be there.

Roles can also disappear. Elevator operators are gone, but elevators continue their ups and downs. Telephone operators are greatly reduced, but phones are better than ever. Travel agents are gone, but the travel industry remains.

So maybe agents will be gone. I don't know. But if they do disappear, the industry will continue without them.

The firms in the greatest danger are usually the ones that feel secure and complacent in the face of disruptive technology. If the executives of S&S are not worried about the challenges posed by the changes in the industry, they should be replaced.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I hope this is legit. A lot of folks are getting excited, but I'm a little leery. I sold a ton of books in June and didn't hear from any agents, so I have to wonder how hard literary agents are looking. 

My sales stats are on my latest blog post, which is linked in my siggy.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Jeff Rivera said:


> I can understand why some people are suspicious. It's not every day that someone offers to help with no strings attached. But for those who have any doubts, like I said, just Google my name "Jeff Rivera" or ask Joe Konrath, Karen McQuestion or James Patterson or Seth Godin or Mark Victor Hansen for that matter, what they think of me. Seriously, email them and ask them. (I hate to drop names but I'm trying to make a point).
> 
> For those with an open mind, and who think this might be an option for them, feel free to email me.
> 
> ...


Hi Jeff,

I have an agent. I started out in traditional publishing. I'm not averse to traditional publishing. I probably defend agents and the idea of agents on this board more than I ever should. If I love someone's writing, and they're looking for an agent, she's asked me to ping her--she always wants to get new great clients. But she reads their work and decides for herself. (And she's never picked up one of my recommendations--so take this for what it's worth.)

BUT--I think this is a really, really crappy way for anyone to get an agent. Ever.

No agent who is really invested in your work picks up a client without regard to genre. It doesn't matter how big the agent is, if they've never handled romance, they aren't going to be a good fit. If they don't like romance, they won't know what to do with it. Same if the genre is sci fi or whatever. Any agent that says they're going to do this is not thinking of investing time in the client. And that's a bad agent. I have friends who have had really great agents who represent some of the biggest authors out there--but the agent wasn't invested in that person, pawned her off on assistants who had no experience, and never answered e-mails. End result? Great books that never get to the right editors, get no follow up even when the publisher expresses interest, and either don't sell, or sell for very little, and then the agent never follows up on the book, having gotten her paycheck, and the author can't get another contract due to poor sales numbers.

An agent that doesn't work for you is worse than no agent.

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment in general, but I don't understand why you found it necessary to include subtle bashing of those who disagreed. I'm not bitter because of rejection. I've had more offers than I have had rejections from publishing houses. I love my agent, and imagine that we will be working together for many years to come.

And because I know what it's like to work with a good agent, I have to say: This is not what it looks like. It is not what it smells like. I'm sure that you're legit and the agent is real, but you can't convince me that a good agent is willing to consider representation purely based on sales level. That's a fair-weather agent, and you don't need an agent in fair-weather.

You want a foul-weather agent--someone who will stick with you when things don't go as planned, and help you get through to the other side.

Not all things that are legitimate are good deals, and this one doesn't smell like a good deal to me.


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## Christopher Smith (Aug 3, 2010)

> That's a fair-weather agent, and you don't need an agent in fair-weather.
> 
> You want a foul-weather agent--someone who will stick with you when things don't go as planned, and help you get through to the other side.


And that says it all. Well said, Courtney.


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## J. Carson Black (Feb 27, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> And that says it all. Well said, Courtney.


Boy, do I agree with that!


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

No thread hijack intended, but...



Terrence OBrien said:


> Publishing is an industry and they usually don't disappear. They adapt. Buggy whips are gone, but leather goods are thriving. Music, travel, and securities trading all faced the disruptive innovations from the internet, yet the industries thrive today.


*Music* isn't a good example of thriving. Yes, people are still buying music, but not like they were before. In fact:



> The music industry is down 64% from its peak.


Source: 
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

I've read every single person's comments here. Sorry I can't respond to each one individually but you can always email me if you want to discuss something privately.  

First of all, this is an important debate in the industry and I'm glad we're discussing it as authors because everything being discussed in here needs to be said no matter what side of the fence you're on.

Second of all, if you don't like agents or don't think they'll be useful to your career path for whatever your reasons are, that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that and I don't think you're "wrong" for thinking that way. Lord knows I've been through my fair share of good agents and bad.  

I have many author friends some you've never heard of, others are household names and guess what? They all bitch about their agents. Some of them, even the household names, have asked me to help "hook them up" with other agents.  It's part of the business. Actors complain about their agents, so do models, agents complain about other agents. It's just the way it is. There are great agents and not so great ones.

For those that feel that somehow I belittled or patronized other writers, I'm sorry you feel that way, that was not my intention and I invite you to re-read my comments, you'll find there's nothing I said that indicates otherwise.

For those of you who have approached me about the "mysterious" Frank we've been talking about, know that he is just one of many big agents, some you've heard of, others you haven't, that have asked me to keep an eye out for good stuff. So anyone who thinks "real" agents aren't looking in unorthodox places for great talent, or inviting people like me to find talent for them, whether the agents' interests are based on someone's sales figures or the quality of their writing, may need to be open to the idea that things are changing faster than any of us in the industry anticipated and it's those that "break the rules" that are getting things done.  I encourage you to be one of those people, whether you choose to continue on your own, work with an agent, or an intellectual property attorney.  There is no "wrong" way to do it. Every success has a different journey and a different story. Maybe this one will be yours.


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

Trolling "agents" and their avatars are as honest as telemarketers who violate the National Do Not Call Registry.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Jeff Rivera said:


> It's just the way it is.


Aha. Jeff, here's what many agents don't seem to understand nowadays: Things are no longer "just the way it is."

I have nothing against literary agents, though I do not have one. I personally don't feel the need for one at this point, but it's not impossible I could change my mind eventually.

But regardless of my own situation, the game has changed. "Just the way it is" is no longer good enough for many writers, and the "just the way it is" attitude is one of the reasons there is often hostility toward agents.

Running a literary agency, or even just being an agent, is a business. If any other business tells its clients or customers, things are "just the way it is," the clients and customers will leave.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

@Jeff

I appreciate what you are trying to do for other writers and your agent contacts. I'll have to agree with Courtney that it's a little bit suspect that any respectable agent would claim they can work with any genre, as long as there are 10,000 sales, but I have a feeling this is just a respectable agent's attempt at moving the slush pile a bit.

Instead of having his assistants look at incoming queries, he's letting the market dictate who is worthy of getting to his desk (in this case, authors who have sold over 10,000) and then through personal contacts later on, he is deciding if he can push the writer in their genre.

It's a step forward, in that this action is showing that agents are watching the self publishing movement and that you can certainly build a brand that can be picked up by agents and industry. That said, I find it highly odd that an agent would consider representing someone based solely on 10,000 sales, potentially in a genre that didn't make sense for the agent.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Music isn't a good example of thriving. Yes, people are still buying music, but not like they were before. In fact:"_

An industry with a large sales volume can be making or losing money. An industry with a smaller sales volume can be making or losing money. I didn't see financials for the music firms in the link, and that's not surprising since the topic was sales.

However, I look at the financials of the company to determine if it is thriving. A smaller industry may be doing very well after a disruption. I think Apple became the US company with the highest market capitalization today. It jumped above Exxon/Mobile, then dropped below it.

Total sales is certainly an important metric, and one not to be dismissed. And I acknowledge a certain size market is necessary for a viable industry. But it doesn't tell us much about the health of the industry. I'd also use an expanded scope for an industry like this. That would include artists, producers, distributors, retailers, and dedicated devices.

Likewise, I'd include writers, agents, publishers, editors, cover artists, distributors, bookstores, eRetailers, and dedicated device makers in the publishing industry.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Jeff Rivera said:


> There's nothing wrong with staying indie and some authors do a great job balancing both worlds. Unless you're #1 on Amazon in your category or in the top 10 overall on Amazon, then ranking isn't as important to them as the number of sales you've racked up.


Interesting that you set 10,000 copies as your bellweather.

Because here's what I read on Wikipedia about your book: "Before it was picked up by Warner Books, *8,000 copies* were in circulation in both print and electronic versions that Rivera had self-published."

Sounds like even you had a hard time reaching that benchmark!

No shame in that, though... it's a high benchmark.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Jeff Rivera said:


> I have many author friends some you've never heard of, others are household names and guess what? They all bitch about their agents. Some of them, even the household names, have asked me to help "hook them up" with other agents. It's part of the business. Actors complain about their agents, so do models, agents complain about other agents. It's just the way it is. There are great agents and not so great ones.


This isn't true.

At this point, because I've been traditionally published, and because I've been very outspoken about the role that agents should (and should not) play in the coming changes in the business, I've talked to hundreds of authors. I started by saying "dozens" but then I actually started counting, and it's definitely hundreds. I've talked to everyone from perennial NY Times bestsellers through the midlist through debut authors who have yet to be published. And what you say does not comport with the reality of the world that I've observed.

I know very few authors who complain about their agents. I know far too many authors who should be complaining about their agents and do not. I know authors who sit tight while their "busy" agents fail to submit books--in some cases, proposals on option to publishers who are asking about the book--for months, and in one extreme case, years.

I don't think you're being belittling or patronizing, but I do think you are consistently presenting yourself as the "wise industry insider"--when truthfully, there are people in this thread who have as much experience in traditional publishing who are saying that this doesn't pass the sniff test. I do believe that you're on the up and up, but you're presenting this to KBers as if it is an amazing opportunity for them. It isn't. I hope it's obvious to everyone on the Kindleboards that agents are more in need of clients who can give them money than clients are in need of agents. This is just more proof of that. You don't need to get all excited because an agent says that they want clients who can make money.

If you want an agent and you've proven you can make money, you're going to find it really, really easy to get one--no need for anyone to "hook you up" with anyone mysterious.

If you can make money, you can find an agent--one who thinks that the most important thing about you is that he or she loves your work and is in it for the long haul. That's what you want in an agent.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> If you want an agent and you've proven you can make money, you're going to find it really, really easy to get one--no need for anyone to "hook you up" with anyone mysterious.
> 
> If you can make money, you can find an agent--one who thinks that the most important thing about you is that he or she loves your work and is in it for the long haul. That's what you want in an agent.


Thank you, Courtney. Well said.


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## LizzyFord (Jan 4, 2011)

quote author=Courtney Milan link=topic=79117.msg1262229#msg1262229 date=1312947973]
If you want an agent and you've proven you can make money, you're going to find it really, really easy to get one--no need for anyone to "hook you up" with anyone mysterious.

If you can make money, you can find an agent--one who thinks that the most important thing about you is that he or she loves your work and is in it for the long haul. That's what you want in an agent.
[/quote]

Wow, Courtney - your comments in this thread are wonderful. I'm learning how it works on the other side of the fence. Lol ...

As for the entire premise of this thread, I thought that 10,000 books was well, low. The indies I've read about who have been picked up by trad'l publishers are selling over 20,000 books a month with many of them selling hundreds of thousands in the past few months. 10,000 seemed rather ... low compared to what I've read, especially if you look at sales across books. I think this is what made me wonder about this thread, though I saw it posted earlier that Jeff is legit. And not being interested in the genre to me does seem odd, though if Jeff has so many contacts, he may have a fit for whatever genre the writer is writing.

Anyhoo ... the comments on this thread have kept me from going to bed on time. G'night, y'all, and I'll check back tomorrow!


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Their sales are way off, but their sales rank reporting is pretty accurate. It's certainly good enough to tell you who's running 1000+ sales a month.


Uhhh...hate to differ, as to Novelrank's rank reporting, but I just checked and they list two of my better-selling books as "inactive"

I also want to add that I agree with everything Courtney said. I've had a great relationship with a very high-powered NY agent for my print books, and I can't imagine him assigning someone to hunt down new clients based on internet sales. I realize things have changed a lot since I started in the business, but back then I had to send him what I considered to be my "best" book, fly to NY for a face to face interview, plus get references from two other authors on his client list before he would consider taking me on.

I would honestly hate to be starting out all over again looking for a print publisher, or even looking for an agent. Keep in mind one other rather important point: selling 10K ebooks is a terrific accomplishment. Selling 10K print books puts you on the very bottom rung of a very tall ladder.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

marshacanham said:


> Uhhh...hate to differ, as to Novelrank's rank reporting, but I just checked and they list two of my better-selling books as "inactive"


"Inactive" on Novelrank means, "Nobody checked this book for a few months, so we stopped tracking it." It means that their tracking is inactive, not that your book is.


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> "Inactive" on Novelrank means, "Nobody checked this book for a few months, so we stopped tracking it." It means that their tracking is inactive, not that your book is.


But..but..but...I *have* checked.


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## Sophrosyne (Mar 27, 2011)

I think, the reasoning behind "any genre" is because he's got connections with a number of agents. If you write horror and you've sold 30,000 copies, then he probably has an agent he knows who's interested in horror that he may be able to hook you up with.

If Jeff's not asking for money and the agents aren't asking for money, why dismiss it off-hand as a scam? If you apply and you get hooked up with an agent who just graduated high school and created an agency in his basement, you don't need to sign the contract. Although it sounds like Jeff's got some legitimate agents he knows.

I understand the hostility, because writers are a frequent target for scammers. But I also understand the desire to help writers by hooking them up with industry professionals, just because you're trying to give back to the community and be supportive. So much of the legacy world is just a lottery ticket. It seems to me that all Jeff's doing is handing you an additional lottery ticket. There's no guarantees, but if only one person lands a contract and then a deal... it's worth a free lottery ticket.

My question is... does price come into consideration for these agents? For instance, I have a friend whose book went free last month, and she "sold" 55,000 copies as a free book. That's well over 10,000 but they were free books. Is it just a numbers thing, regardless of price or time span?


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

marshacanham said:


> But..but..but...I *have* checked.


Yes, but have you reactivated them? If they go inactive, it doesn't matter if you check; you have to reactivate them to make them work.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Have we counted all the teeth in this gift horse yet?


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## sgroyle (Aug 21, 2010)

Eric C said:


> Have we counted all the teeth in this gift horse yet?


... Yes, and as those in Troy, would say, "After the teeth, pull the guts out, and lets see what's really in here..."


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

Sophrosyne said:


> If Jeff's not asking for money and the agents aren't asking for money, why dismiss it off-hand as a scam?


Because the most successful scams are those that have something genuine to offer, that will eat into your profits long term, and that you don't really need.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

I will also say that I fired two agents before landing with my third. If you're complaining about your agent, it could be that you have a right to complain because something isn't working out in the relationship.

I've never complained about my third agent. I love her and she's a fabulous agent and a tireless worker. I get emails from her late at night. On weekends. I've emailed her eight times in the same week and she's replied promptly to all. Not all agent experiences are the same, of course, but if you're constantly complaining about your agent, you're with the wrong one.


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Looks like some of you have had good and bad experiences.  One lady recently remarked on a thread why should she have an agent when she is doing all the work anyway.

I have some good books, even one that just received an overall 4 1/2 Star review out 5 from Red Adept Reviews last month but it's like a grain of sand because there's a mountain of books out there.  I've thought since it got 5/5 Stars for characters, it would be quite fun as a movie (witty things going on, too).

Good luck with hearing from the agent re: movie deal!


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## BarbraAnnino (Jan 27, 2011)

I've sold over 6,000 copies of the first novel in my series. 

Book 2 is underway and I planned to query an agent who was interested in my work a few years ago. She was a top choice after I fired my first agent and she handles the different genres in which I write. Important, because I don't stick to one genre and love to stretch my writing muscles. 

With short stories it isn't that big a deal, but agents don't always want to rep an author who writes outside of theme/genre/voice of the book they were sold on. Something that truly baffles my mind. Especially when I read that they want a long-term relationship, career-spanning, etc...but then lots of authors get dropped because agent didn't like a particular book, or agent refused to sell a particular book. Really confusing to me.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

Jeff Rivera said:


> Yes, this is a legitimate.


Starting a conversation with "This is legitimate" is like a salesman starting a conversation with "I'll be honest with you." Everything that comes afterwards is suspect. No, I'm not saying you are suspicious. I'm just saying that if you are going to use language often found on a used car lot, you have to expect people to look at you cross-eyed.

For the record, ***** did not chime in here to lambast Jeff. Assuming, of course, that this is in fact Jeff Rivera who has created a KB account (and I have no reason not to doubt that, but stranger things have happened so I qualify my statement), everything I know about him says he's a good guy. I believe he is the same person who is the founder of The Gatekeepers' Post, which is a pretty cool site for those interested in the industry (Mark Coker sits on the advisory board, along with several heavy hitters). I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of his offer.

What I do question, Jeff, is who decided on the arbitrary 10,000 sales cut off? And more importantly, how are you defining 10,000 sales? I have titles with combined eBook and print sales of over 10,000, but you would never know that looking at Amazon because Amazon is actually only one of 30 places I sell. High sales volume doesn't equal literary merit (or even mainstream success). It simply means someone marketed well. I would hate to think that agents now expect to get paid a percentage while also expecting the author to do 100% of the heavy lifting in terms of marketing. A person generating that sort of volume doesn't need an agent.

When the agents said to let them know about promising indie books, I find it strange they would have selected such an arbitrary qualifier. I could see if they said "Hey, we'd like to see some reviews from independent third party reviewers" (because libraries and bookstores look at this sort of stuff, so it is something an agent would logically want to see). And as others have pointed out, selling 10,000 99 cent books is not the same thing as having something marketable to a trad publisher who is NOT going to sell at 99 cents.

I fear you may be inadvertently misrepresenting what was asked of you. Not deliberately being shady, but perhaps not clarifying the context of what the agents may have said. For example, I've told some of my friends in the past, "Hey, if you come across any good fantasy artists, direct them to my site." That doesn't translate to them going to Deviantart.com and posting an open call for artists to jump through hoops and deal with arbitrary parameters in order to have that friend refer them to me. I didn't ask for that. It was more of a casual if you happen to come across something that you think would fit with my company, let me know thing.

And this goes back to Suzanne's experience. Her experience makes sense in the context of perhaps everyone not being on the same page insofar as expectations. It makes no sense, however, if the agent specifically told you "I want authors of any genre with X number of sales."


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Julie,

10K makes little sense to me, either, considering this fellow's own book only sold 8K as an indie before being picked up by a mainstream traditional publisher.

The other note I have about his tone is that he seems to assume it would surprise us that agents are actually scouting the indie ranks for good authors who sell well. I knew that a year ago when I had only been here a couple weeks, but I also knew that at least some people here didn't care; they were indie by choice, not due to a lack of choices.

But agents are culling us for salable authors? That's no revelation.


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Some have asked why 10,000 eBooks since for example, I was able to land a book deal with only 8,000? I can only tell you what one particular agent is currently looking for. Another agent may only be looking for 1,000 sales. Others don't care and only want a great book. Each agent knows what they need in order to interest the editors that they deal with on a daily basis and this is what this and the particular agents I'm talking about are asking for. 

This agent is reacting to exactly what executive editors the publishing houses are telling him they need at their publishing house in order to get through their aquisition meetings with an offer.  

Do they care if the book sold for 99 cents? I asked one agent yesterday and he said, "Who cares? It shows they were able to create a paying audience". Would they care if the books were 49 cents? Probably not.

If you were able to give away a five, ten or twenty thousand of copies of your eBook for free, would they be interested in talking to you? Probably, yes. But showing people were willing to pay, be it little or much, shows them others see enough value in your ebook enough to pay and perhaps they'll be willing to pay a lot more for the print version, or the audio or film or the graphic novel, etc.

If you can think of modern day publishers more as investors, as Mark Coker says, who want a proven track record to decrease their chances of making a risky investment, it might be easier to see their perspective.

This is what they are currently asking for. Next month might be something completely different or maybe this will become the norm and they'll look to more and more self-published authors who have done all the leg work and proven there's a paying audience for their work before publishers are willing to invest their own money in taking it to the next level. Who knows? Time will tell but it looks like things are heading in that direction.  I do know this, every week in Publishers Lunch/Marketplace there's at least another handful of book deals that were struck by self-published and ePublished novelists.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Jeff Rivera said:


> I do know this, every week in Publishers Lunch/Marketplace there's at least another handful of book deals that were struck by self-published and ePublished novelists.


You're right about that. And it's been that way for close to a year.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

An agent and editor I heard speak recently both said that they'd consider looking at ebooks that had sold more than 1000 copies - in their view that meant there was a market outside of friends/family.


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## Saffina Desforges (Dec 8, 2010)

My worry is Novelrank. My co-author, Mark Williams has blogged on this before. NR has NEVER been accurate. We have checked it since we published last November and it has never been correct. We have sold over 75,000 copies of Sugar & Spice since January 2011 on Amazon alone - one month, we sold 22,000. Last month and this months' figures are WAY out, as are the totals.

Let's hope that agents aren't taking too much notice of this site and hurting those who want representation.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

Saffina Desforges said:


> My worry is Novelrank. My co-author, Mark Williams has blogged on this before. NR has NEVER been accurate. We have checked it since we published last November and it has never been correct. We have sold over 75,000 copies of Sugar & Spice since January 2011 on Amazon alone - one month, we sold 22,000. Last month and this months' figures are WAY out, as are the totals.
> 
> Let's hope that agents aren't taking too much notice of this site and hurting those who want representation.


All I can say is the only people I know who fixate on Novelrank's numbers are authors. I don't know any publishers or editors that even look at it. It has never been close to accurate, because it is all based on guesswork with zero feedback from Amazon on how their algorithms actually work.


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## Saffina Desforges (Dec 8, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> All I can say is the only people I know who fixate on Novelrank's numbers are authors. I don't know any publishers or editors that even look at it. It has never been close to accurate, because it is all based on guesswork with zero feedback from Amazon on how their algorithms actually work.


Good job eh?


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)




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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

First of all, as always, nicely said Courtney – on all of it.

I'm finding several things interesting about this conversation.

First, the only people I've heard say anything remotely negative about their agent are very, VERY close friends who know it will go no further. I have a hard time believing that "every" writer he knows complains about his/her agent. I love the agent I have now – not one bad thing to say to anyone about her. My last agent? I had plenty I COULD have said about her, but just like business in any industry... why look like that person? 

Second, no matter how you find an agent (or an agent finds you) do more research than you think you need to. I think everyone here is smart enough to never take anyone's word for it. But, it's been less than a month since the Jodi Reamer scam... enough said.

Third, Jeff's been asked to look out for "good" stuff. No offense to any of us, but when did numbers equal good *cof*Twilight*cof*? *IF* you want an agent, you want one who adores your work... not just your indie sales numbers. You want someone who thinks your work is great, not just good... or saleable. AND you want one who is on the same page business wise as you are.

I know I’m new here on this side, but having been through the agent ringer more than once, I thought I’d jump in. 
Am I saying this isn’t valid or it isn’t safe of anything else? No. Not necessarily. But this definitely feels very buyer beware.

But what isn’t?


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

Well, NovelTrak says I haven't sold a book in more than 72 days for Hot Tea, Sweet Tea, or Iced Tea, but it shows that for Green Tea I've sold a whole eight books in August; in July there is an N/A -- not sure what that's about since the book has been live since March and has sold thousands of copies.

Not real accurate.  

Sheila


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

First of all, Julie, Courtney, and Caitie FTW!!

Look, I've never had an agent - and I'm not sure I even want one. I've only sold two copies since I started selling my book last month and JUST got my first review (which was remarkable positive!). So I'm still very much in the learning phase of this business; honestly, I'm only selling because me and my wife think my book is good and I've invested too much time and effort in it to just let it die.

But...do I want an agent who only wants to consider me IF I sell 10,000 copies? I think of the work I've put into getting 2 sales and I can't imagine the effort it would take to get 10,000 (I know the level of work is not exponential, but I'm sure it takes a LOT of work to reach those numbers). Also, just because 10,000 copies are sold doesn't mean it's good. There is a lot of really bad fiction that sells very well for God-knows-why. So I have to think that any agent that only wants to take a call because I reached some superficial quota is barking up the wrong tree with me. I know agents are looking to make a living, but if anyone is going to take the reins of my new (and lackluster) writing career away from me, they had darn well better like my book FIRST - actually, shoot, they had better LOVE MY BOOK. THEN they can reach me - I put my personal e-mail address under the copyright, for goodness' sake!

Short of that, I'm afraid any deal like Jeff's - no matter how delicious-looking on the outside it is - is just not a good fit for me and my stubborn attitude of 'do-it-myself-and-crash-and-burn-and-don't-care-either-way'. If Jeff tells me, "Hey, I just read your book and think it's the coolest thing ever. Can I buy you a house just because I love you so much?" then we'll talk. Short of that, I'm going to keep working on my next book and have fun going broke!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Caitie Quinn said:


> Third, Jeff's been asked to look out for "good" stuff. No offense to any of us, but when did numbers equal good *cof*Twilight*cof*?


Catie,

I'm sure many people from David Dalglish to Stephen King agree with you that Twilight's no great shakes as literature.

But here's the hard, cold reality: just about any publisher would jump - hard - to sign the next Stephanie Meyer.

Not the pale copycats, mind you... but the ones who could actually deliver that level of sales, regardless of writing flaws...

(And, history shows, even the pale copycats do well for a while.)


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


>


Anyone for cheese?


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Not threadjacking but had to say I loved the Rat video!  They are the sweetest pets.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> Not threadjacking but had to say I loved the Rat video! They are the sweetest pets.


Mine bit my ear so hard I could have put in guages.

Once it acquired a taste for blood, that was it.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh, David.  I'm so sorry.  I took care of one for a friend and she always has one or two rats, and they all were as sweet as could be.  Nuzzlers, all.  Never bit.

That must have been horrible for you.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

My wife had a rat once, a female named Mercy, around the time we started our courtship.

I think one of the ways she "tested" me out was to see if I'd tolerate/get along with such an unusual pet.

Mercy was a nuzzler, but she was an adjustment for me.

Mercy and my wife's cat, Otis, actually got along quite well; Otis doesn't socialize well with other cats, but acts very parental to other, smaller animals like Mercy.

Once Andie had to leave her apartment abruptly and left Mercy out of the cage.

She came back an hour or two later and Mercy was curled up with Otis on the couch. The cat had looked after the rat to make sure it didn't wander off or get lost in the apartment, but never got _killkillkill_ with it. It treated Mercy like its child.

We lost the rat after a trip to Chicago.

Comcast had come into her apartment while we were gone (family emergency, I accompanied her) to install new wires and acted like total barbarians. They ate food out of her fridge, stole a chair that was never returned, and failed to move anything out of their way while they cut into the wall, installed wire, patched things up and sprayed chemicals of some sort all over the place.

They spilled some kind of turpentine on the floor, and left a lot of sawdust behind. Otis had second-degree burns on his paws and if it hadn't been for a next-door neighbor checking in on her cat, Otis might have died; her neighbor took the cat to the vet.

The rat didn't fare so well; it's cage was littered with sawdust and turpentine, too, and she was in bad shape by the time we got back. (The neighbor hadn't thought of the rat.)

Mercy died a few days later, if memory serves... all sorts of respiratory problems, as well as chemical burns and crap.

Comcast paid the vet bill for the cat, but that was all; they never returned the chair, never did anything about the missing food or the mess their people left behind, and then tried to avoid blame by saying the folks who did the job were third-party contractors and "not our people."

At least they paid the cat's vet bill, but Andie still holds a grudge against Comcast. We're only trying them in Oregon again because: 1) It's 2,000 miles away, and so different people are involved, and 2) there's not any other choice/provider at our new place.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

I, too, had a pet rat.    

Her name was Sarah.  She was a white china hooded rat, and technically, belonged to my son, but she was the family pet.

She had a cage, of course, but unless we were going to be gone for long periods of time, she was free to run around the apartment.  She slept with my son and to her credit, never got squished.  She was housebroken.  When she was free, and we walked in the door, she would run from wherever she was and all the way up your body and sit on your shoulder.  It was a welcome home hug.

One day we noticed Sarah was putting on weight.  Not long after that, she gifted us with babies.  16 of them.  Not knowing what to do, and Sarah looking unhappy, I called the vet to ask if there was some way I could support her maternal efforts.  The vet said that since it was her first litter, and there were so many little ones, she would likely kill all but one or two, so that she could deal with them herself.  The vet assured me the deed would be done in a couple of hours.

I had a very serious talk with Sarah.  Covered her cage (I couldn't watch) and went to the beach.

Made a friend check out the cage when we got home.  There was Sarah, and four babies in each corner of her cage.  She'd figured it out and kept them all healthy and happy.  She rotated the babies and kept track of everybody.  I was very proud. Never did find the rodent lothario that took advantage of my sweet little rat, but she did seemed okay with that. 

Between the mastiffs and the rat - our family has been blessed in the pet department.

Sheila


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I haven't published yet but if I were looking for an agent and wanted to go with Jeff's suggestion (which personally, I wouldn't, doesn't sound like the way I'd want to go about it), then I'd find his known online presence (website or similar) and contact him via that, linking this thread.

I'm kind of paranoid but, like Julie said, stranger things have happened than someone masquerading as someone else online and, like your bank asking you for security info before they'll speak to you about your account, hopefully Jeff will appreciate people being sure that it's him that they are speaking to.

Edited to add that I see the contact info given is an e-mail address.  Seems to fit his website address but it's always worth checking these things and I haven't looked in to it too deeply.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Just so people know how this is developing for me...

Jeff invited me to feed my blog into GateKeepers Post. It's a cool place for posts, and there are some heavy-hitters posting there. Check it out: 
http://www.gatekeeperspost.com/category/jeff-rivera/

Also, the agent I had contact with, Frank, has arranged another phone meeting with me today. We'll see how it goes...

I'm open to hearing what he has to say, hoping it may be connected to movies, for which I don't have a lot of contacts. I'll keep you posted.

This is a changing world, and, in my experience, things can happen in strange ways. In the past, I've made incredible connections just by being open or by being in the right place at the right time. Some of the best situations and meetings in my life have come about through unusual situations and my being willing to take a chance.

As far as I can tell (by the way, I'm from NY, and I've been around) Jeff is on the up-and-up. No one has asked for any money or personal information. Call me crazy, but I'm willing to see where this will lead and give people the benefit of the doubt. Jeff tells me the blow-off I received was probably from an intern answering the phone. My exchanges with Frank's assistant have been very courteous.

Life...it's an adventure.


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## LizzyFord (Jan 4, 2011)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> Just so people know how this is developing for me...
> 
> Jeff invited me to feed my blog into GateKeepers Post. It's a cool place for posts, and there are some heavy-hitters posting there. Check it out:
> http://www.gatekeeperspost.com/category/jeff-rivera/
> ...


Definitely interested in how this turns out for you, Suzanne. I think it's great you're so willing to share. Will be excited to read your updates. Good luck!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Interesting how a discussion about agents turned naturally to pet rats for a while...


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Interesting how a discussion about agents turned naturally to pet rats for a while...


ROFLMAO!!!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Interesting how a discussion about agents turned naturally to pet rats for a while...


Yes, I too found that segue to be both humorous and inevitable.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> ROFLMAO!!!


Jeanne, this is completely unrelated to this thread. No pressure or anything, but you *MUST* make a print version of _The Pet Psychic Diaries _ available, and you must have it ready before October 3rd so that I can buy it for my mom's birthday.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

An update:

Frank called me at the appointed time today. Initially he asked me how I've managed to sell so many copies of Dating My Vibrator--especially since short stories are notoriously difficult to sell. I told him that I'd spent a lot of hours on social networks, Kindleboards and other forums, blogs, etc. He seemed curious about the process--probably for other clients. Then we spoke a bit about Barnes & Nobel also going into publishing, in a way similar to Amazon--apparently he's working with them about crossover, so writers would be able to sell books in both venues. 

Then he told me a bit about his company (I won't disclose it here, because Jeff hasn't), but they've been very successful, especially in the past two years. In his words, they're "hot." Consequently they're on a roll and looking for material.

Then we spoke about the possibility of DMV becoming a film. Although the book is a series of unlinked short stories, the stories ultimately paint a picture, and the characters presented could easily be incorporated into a novel or a screenplay. Kind of a Bridget Jones Diary for the over forty set. Finally we spoke about my novels and other books I'm working on. 

I'm not sure what will come of this, but we seemed to hit it off--spoke for forty minutes, and could have kept going. We even had some common history, he attended the Maui Writers Conference, and so did I. He said he likes to speak to people on the phone to see if they have personality. I'm sure I gave him quite a few angles, since I have a checkered history.  

Anyway, if nothing else, it was a fun phone call, and I laughed a lot. So did he. Time will tell. I'm glad it worked out, and that we gave each other a second chance. He's open to meeting other writers with potential, and apparently he trusts Jeff's judgement.

Signing off,
Suzanne


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Congrats, Suzanne


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## LizzyFord (Jan 4, 2011)

Awesome, Suzanne!  I've been checking back all day to see how it went ... lol ...


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Congrats Suzanne, let me know if anything comes out of it or if you need any other help.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks again, Jeff. I'll will definitely let you know. 
If nothing else, I had fun talking with Frank.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

That's a nice turn to the story.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Suzanne, thank you so much for your openness. It's a real service. Also, good luck!


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

Boy, these agents are just getting lazier and lazier and ever further removed from what is happening. The reality is it's getting to the point where, by the time they notice you, you've already outgrown them. 

All I would say is, if I were an agent, and I saw the money stream diverted around me, I would actively and passionately stick myself in the middle of it somehow. True, in 2011 you almost certainly need an agent to get a movie deal, there aren't that many movie deals being made these days anyway. That said, if you think it's the right move, go for it and have fun, but it's not a guaranteed step up. It's more like a guaranteed goodbye to 15 percent forever.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Jeanne, this is completely unrelated to this thread. No pressure or anything, but you *MUST* make a print version of _The Pet Psychic Diaries _ available, and you must have it ready before October 3rd so that I can buy it for my mom's birthday.


Aw...thanks Julie. That comment brightened my day.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

scottnicholson said:


> Boy, these agents are just getting lazier and lazier and ever further removed from what is happening. The reality is it's getting to the point where, by the time they notice you, you've already outgrown them.
> 
> All I would say is, if I were an agent, and I saw the money stream diverted around me, I would actively and passionately stick myself in the middle of it somehow. True, in 2011 you almost certainly need an agent to get a movie deal, there aren't that many movie deals being made these days anyway. That said, if you think it's the right move, go for it and have fun, but it's not a guaranteed step up. It's more like a guaranteed goodbye to 15 percent forever.


They are probably very busy making deals. Precious few movies adapted from novels. The SK Dark Tower movie just had the plug pulled by Universal.


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## ccjames (Jun 9, 2011)

The cool thing is that everything is negotiable and a savvy agent can see that. You can sign with an agent book by book, change the terms to something agreeable to both of you, maybe use them as an adviser if they are willing. My agent is also a lawyer and is willing to just act as a lawyer for a flat rate instead of the 15%. She's also willing to work on a book by book basis. We have options. 

In this changing atmosphere, the smart agents will bend, flow and be willing to negotiate and those that won't will eventually fade away.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> They are probably very busy making deals. Precious few movies adapted from novels. The SK Dark Tower movie just had the plug pulled by Universal.


Not necessarily novels, but they're adapting something. There hasn't been a whole lot of money flowing into the spec market, at least not when I was paying attention, and it doesn't seem to have picked up much since then. If I recall, the CW was that studios look for content with a large pre-existing audience and international appeal*, since that's where they actually make a profit now.

So, a fan base, and pretty visuals with stuff blowing up or people getting beat up and having sex, and cross-culturally resonant archetypes that don't rely on a lot of dialog. And with an awesome hook, although that apparently is optional. (Source Code tanked, right? Oh well, no more sci fi spec for a while.)

Yay...Hollywood...

*If I recall, Cowboys and Aliens actually started off as a spec script, then they (I don't remember if it was writers or if there were already producers attached) realized that it wasn't going to get sold unless it was an adaptation of a graphic novel, so they _made the graphic novel_, printed up a bunch of copies, gave them to comic stores, and bought them back at low prices to make it look like the graphic novel had an audience, _and then sold the script_. I think that was the rumor, anyway. I wonder if I can verify via google.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Rosenberg was a gamer and Noveck and Benjiman had a really good agent at the William Morris Agency. First a guy named Arvis had an ashcan comic with the Cowboys & Aliens title, but very short like 15 pages in the 90's. Later Rosenberg had a screenplay and he gamed a comic and a short novel and it's all out there on google. Hollywood Reporter etc. Arvis got paid off not to sue. Only in Hollywood. Here's a quick take:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/showthread.php?45762-The-Secret-Story-Behind-Cowboys-And-Aliens


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks Suzanne!!

Terri


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I'm a businessperson - I'd never make any major decision like this without a preliminary conversation with multiple people. I'm also very new to this whole agent thing - maybe people talk to multiple agents but don't admit it .


Huh. Yeah, this doesn't seem unreasonable.

It does, however, reflect a more equitable distribution of power than has, um, been traditional. Or at least as I've heard the traditional dynamic described.

So that's interesting.

Thanks for posting! This information sharing thing is truly awesome. Yay KB.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I worked as a consultant for ten years. I preferred talking to potential clients who were "interviewing" multiple consultants - that suggested they had their act together, had realistic expectations, and had a reasonably good sense of what they wanted. It tended to make for better long-term relationships. Not every client chose me, but when they did, it was generally a good fit.
> 
> That clearly wasn't Frank's expectation/preference, but I don't know how pervasive that attitude is in the industry.


I've had agents ask for an exclusive while they're reading my material. I've always requested a time-frame. Agents want you to tell them if you're making multiple submissions--but I'm sure many writers don't mention it. The fact that Frank didn't even want to speak to you if you were considering other agents seems a bit overboard to me. My impression is that he's collecting ideas to pitch without really signing people. But, if you aren't signed for representation...you aren't signed.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

So...I just spoke with Frank.  He seemed like a very nice man.  Our conversation was not very long - but he had a cold and so do I.   He had some folks (i.e. publishers) he wanted to talk to about my books.  He did not ask me for a commitment or to sign a contract, he just told me what he'd like to do and then said he'd get back to me.  We probably spoke for 15 minutes - tops.  I found him to be very professional, and, as Suzanne mentioned - very personable.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I sent an email to Jeff, the OP, about three weeks ago, but never heard back. I guess that means no interest?


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> I sent an email to Jeff, the OP, about three weeks ago, but never heard back. I guess that means no interest?


I sent an initial e-mail to Jeff - but sometimes my e-mail address gets sent to Spam - so I sent him a PM through Kindleboards. You might want to try that.
Good luck!!!


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Of interest - there have been other agents reading this thread . Got contacted by one of them a couple of weeks ago. I'd thought it might be because I have two books high on the fantasy bestseller list on amazon  . Nope!


I would like to take this opportunity to mention what an incredible human being Joshua Bilmes is. Quite possibly the greatest of all time.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Of interest - there have been other agents reading this thread . Got contacted by one of them a couple of weeks ago. I'd thought it might be because I have two books high on the fantasy bestseller list on amazon  . Nope!


Interesting. So why did they contact you?


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

@ Modwitch. Very cool, the way things are happening.

If any agents read this, I haven't signed with Frank or anyone else. I'm interested in acquiring representation for foreign rights, movies, and my novels. I'm working on another historical suspense novel now. I'd like to get the novels into print and distributed into brick and mortar. One of these days, I might go back to querying.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

I've long given up querying.  If any agents are reading this thread, they can read a sample of White Seed and check out the books numbers and consistant standing in the ranks.  But I'm through sending out emails and waiting six months for the replies.


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## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm in the same boat as Mary, sent Jeff an email when this thread was new, and heard nothing. I'll take Terri's advice and try a PM. I don't know if people are picking up horror/vampire writers like they are mystery/thrillers, but with 10K+ sales in the last four months, I think I'd be attractive to publishers. Who knows, though?


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> I would like to take this opportunity to mention what an incredible human being Joshua Bilmes is. Quite possibly the greatest of all time.


You aren't the first person to say so. So far, I have heard nothing but good things about him.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

John Hartness said:


> I'm in the same boat as Mary, sent Jeff an email when this thread was new, and heard nothing. I'll take Terri's advice and try a PM. I don't know if people are picking up horror/vampire writers like they are mystery/thrillers, but with 10K+ sales in the last four months, I think I'd be attractive to publishers. Who knows, though?


Well, mine are thrillers and I sold 23,000 in June, but didn't hear anything so having a couple of thrillers with good sales is definitely not a guarantee of interest.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

From the sounds of this thread, "Frank" is simply looking for low-hanging fruit. If you \want an agent that will do good things for your career (and I'm not saying Frank can not; I don't know him from Adam), I suggest you polish up your query letter and find an agent that makes deals in your genre (UF, paranormal, etc) and begin it with "I am seeking NY representation. I have sold 23,000 copies in the past 4 months at X price point in my genre."  

If there is interest to be had, you WILL have interest. There are lots of great agents out there looking for motivated clients, and there are lots of publishing houses looking for people with established platforms to leverage into a 'sure thing' for a NY deal.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Well, mine are thrillers and I sold 23,000 in June, but didn't hear anything so having a couple of thrillers with good sales is definitely not a guarantee of interest.


Wow, Mary! That's fantastic! Try Jane Dystal. She's Joe Konrath's agent, and she's innovative.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

jillmyles said:


> From the sounds of this thread, "Frank" is simply looking for low-hanging fruit. If you \want an agent that will do good things for your career (and I'm not saying Frank can not; I don't know him from Adam), I suggest you polish up your query letter and find an agent that makes deals in your genre (UF, paranormal, etc) and begin it with "I am seeking NY representation. I have sold 23,000 copies in the past 4 months at X price point in my genre."
> 
> If there is interest to be had, you WILL have interest. There are lots of great agents out there looking for motivated clients, and there are lots of publishing houses looking for people with established platforms to leverage into a 'sure thing' for a NY deal.


I never considered myself low-hanging fruit before...


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

terrireid said:


> I never considered myself low-hanging fruit before...


LOL Terri.

I may have been called a fruit, but low-hanging is just too much!


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## joanhallhovey (Nov 7, 2010)

Was with a traditional publisher with the first 2 suspense novels, Kensington/Zebra NY, sold over 40,000 books.

They didn't take the third one, so am now with a small Canadian publisher, primarily an ebook publisher, selling much less  .  But a pleasant relationship.  Feel free to contact me at www.joanhallhovey.com   I have a new novel which I just submitted to the publisher.  

Joan


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Ironically, I never even considered wanting an agent until I came to KindleBoards. Then, out of curiosity, I looked at a few, and noticed that at least two of them would charge me for photocopies. The tightwad in me balked immediately, so I stopped looking.

But, with books currently languishing in the 300,000s, I can afford to be anti-establishment.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> LOL Terri.
> 
> I may have been called a fruit, but low-hanging is just too much!


LOL I agree!!!


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

I'd love to know any updates from those who were introduced to "Frank". Let me know how it went. Also, I respond to everyone's emails so if you haven't heard back, that means I never got your email so try to PM me here.  I'll be out of town until Sept 7th so give me until then to respond & good luck!


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## Imogen Rose (Mar 22, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Of interest - there have been other agents reading this thread . Got contacted by one of them a couple of weeks ago. I'd thought it might be because I have two books high on the fantasy bestseller list on amazon  . Nope!


Cool, congrats!


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

After three weeks, definitely send a follow up.


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## I love books (Aug 12, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Of interest - there have been other agents reading this thread . Got contacted by one of them a couple of weeks ago. I'd thought it might be because I have two books high on the fantasy bestseller list on amazon  . Nope!


Congratulations!


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## I love books (Aug 12, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> Hi Jeff, just giving you an update...
> 
> I spoke with Frank initially almost a month ago, and he was interested in the possibility of him selling the movie rights for my romcom Fourteen Days Later. I haven't heard anything back from him regarding this yet, though.


Congrats, Sibel! Fingers crossed.


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## jherrick (Apr 1, 2011)

Congratulations, all! Way to go!


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Mary, did you PM Jeff?

I recently parted ways with my agent, and so I PM'd Jeff for some info about "Frank". He responded pretty promptly. Maybe my timing was good.

I haven't spoken with "Frank" yet, so I don't have any updates to report. But I will keep you all in the loop, including Jeff 

Best of luck to all the authors who are on an agent hunt!



MaryMcDonald said:


> I sent an email to Jeff, the OP, about three weeks ago, but never heard back. I guess that means no interest?


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

tawnytaylor said:


> Mary, did you PM Jeff?
> 
> I recently parted ways with my agent, and so I PM'd Jeff for some info about "Frank". He responded pretty promptly. Maybe my timing was good.
> 
> ...


He sent me a PM the other day instructing me to re-send my email, so I did. He then posted here that he'd be out of town for awhile, so I don't expect to hear from him for at least a week.


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Hmmm...I'd PM again and inquire whether he received your second email.


MaryMcDonald said:


> He sent me a PM the other day instructing me to re-send my email, so I did. He then posted here that he'd be out of town for awhile, so I don't expect to hear from him for at least a week.


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## dtconklin (Jul 28, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> But I think it's a mistake to set sales of x number as the litmus test. I know enough great indie authors who aren't selling in obscene numbers, but I'm sure with the right amount of support from traditional publishers, they'd do great. It's too bad these agents aren't looking for great writers and storytellers first and foremost--for their sake, too. I think they're missing out.


What Moses said.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MaryMcDonald said:


> He sent me a PM the other day instructing me to re-send my email, so I did. He then posted here that he'd be out of town for awhile, so I don't expect to hear from him for at least a week.


He didn't get my email either, so I suspect some spam filterage is going on. Send him a PM with the text of your email + email addy. That's what I did and got a reply from Jeff right away. (Haven't heard from "Frank" yet, but maybe he just isn't interested.)


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

This is cool: Frank just wrote to me and said he's got two movie people interested in *Dating My Vibrator (and other true fiction)*!

Fingers crossed.


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## MSTHRILLER (Jan 20, 2011)

oooh I think DMV would make a great movie! Or tv series.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> This is cool: Frank just wrote to me and said he's got two movie people interested in *Dating My Vibrator (and other true fiction)*!
> 
> Fingers crossed.


That is so cool!!!! Best of luck!!!!


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

MSTHRILLER said:


> oooh I think DMV would make a great movie! Or tv series.


Thanks, Traci! Lots of people have asked me what happens with the nice guy, Sam... In the movie version, I think they'd have to get together. 

Congratulations to you too! (I'll let you announce the news.)


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## Artemis Hunt (Aug 23, 2011)

Congrats!!


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## T.M.souders author (Jun 2, 2011)

Wow, good luck Suzanne!


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## JonnyAndrews (Jul 30, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Here's what's odd about this trend in which authors that sell 10,000+ ebooks (or whatever the number is) are getting interest from publishers.
> 
> 1) Low pricing typically leads to more sales. So, generally, a 99 cent author is going to be way ahead of a $4.95 author in terms of sales volume. That skews the results. On the flip side, it's possible to sell a ton of ebooks at higher prices.
> 
> ...


HUGELY solid point.

I think what's going to happen shortly is the heat to sign indie authors
will die out pretty fast based a lot on what MosesSiregarIII said.

The core problem with mainstream publishers still remains: They don't
like to promote their authors!

As an indie author you're motivated at a core level to get that book in front
of as many people as possible. Those who develop some marketing savvy
tend to rise up.

This is further helped by the fact indies keep WAY more of the actual money
from each sale so it's easier to reinvest in marketing and grow/perpetuate
sales.

However (and this is based just on what I've seen), once you're signed to
a major publisher the author is still required to sell a ton of books on their
own. But now they're getting WAY less per sale.

The problem as I see it potentially unfolding is IF a lot of successful indie
authors are pushed to the mainstream without marketing support it'll end
up creating the exact same problem most signed authors are experiencing now!

Does that make sense? So MosesSiregarIII is dead on the money with what
he's saying about "Flawed Criteria" and even beyond that it's a flawed system!

I think it's really unfortunate publishers with the means to make a legit bestseller
of an indie author will probably continue making the same mistakes.

They'll sign tons of indies then market by throwing everyone against a wall 
to see what sticks. That's just not how it needs to be done!

End Game: A lot of great writers will have potentially great careers destroyed
due to overly restrictive contracts and poor support.

Now all that being said...

I'm totally for seeing what's behind the curtain. Last I checked it never hurt to look

But I will be approaching this with my guard up and never accepting a deal which 
doesn't come with a guarantee of not just distribution but of quality promotion.


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## Michael Parker (Jun 15, 2011)

Reducing your Kindle price to $0.99 doesn't guarantee sales. I've reduced A COVERT WAR to that price (UK also) a couple of weeks ago as a try-out against my other Kindle, NORTH SLOPE. I wanted to see what happened. So far, nothing, but I am still getting the odd sale of NS.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

kcmay said:


> He didn't get my email either, so I suspect some spam filterage is going on. Send him a PM with the text of your email + email addy. That's what I did and got a reply from Jeff right away. (Haven't heard from "Frank" yet, but maybe he just isn't interested.)


I went ahead and sent him a PM yesterday asking if he'd received the re-sent email, and he hadn't, so I just posted my info in a PM along with my email addy. Just did that this morning so haven't heard anything yet.


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## Jeff Rivera (Jun 22, 2011)

Glynn, the price doesn't matter.


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## herocious (May 20, 2011)

Small presses like me, not sure about traditional publishing houses.

missed connections on craigslist also likes me:

http://austin.craigslist.org/mis/2572038897.html

Happy Labor Day


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

JonnyAndrews said:


> The core problem with mainstream publishers still remains: They don't like to promote their authors!


I hear this also the time, and I would like to respectfully diagree. Mainstream publishers DO promote their authors - but not in the ways you think they would/should. Their model is based on bookstore visibility so much of their activity is in ARC's for reviewers, catalogues for buyers, and sales staff calling on people who buy thosands of books for distribution. Readers and writers obviously don't see this - so they think nothing is occuring.

The issue is that as print and bookstores sales continue their decline mainstream publishing will have to adjust their techniques away from this "business to business" selling and concentrate more on direct connections with readers. Indie authors who have no access to the main print channels have always relied on direct to consumer tactics (lots of social networking). So they are that much ahead of the game. One fo the reaons so many authors are attracked to Amazon publsihing companies like AmazonEncore and Thomas and Mercer is that they (Amazon) have the email addressess and buying habits of millions of readers and that is a pretty big trump card to have in your hand.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Jeff Rivera said:


> Glynn, the price doesn't matter.


Say what? I am soooo confused.

True, I haven't sold anywhere near 10K units, but sales for _Spoil _ at 99c were nearly 3 times (and rising) what they are at $2.99 (almost 200 sales a month vs ~80). I made a business decision to forego more units sold for more profit earned by bumping the price up.

If it's just a numbers game to them, a lot of agents are going to be sorely disappointed. Perhaps they have the data to support, but a business model based strictly on unit sales in this climate without looking at price and series status seems a wee bit short-sighted and not very business-minded. The market at 99c is very different than the market at $2.99, which in turn is different from the market above $5.

And if they do have the data to support, I would LOVE to know where it's coming from (and that's said quite genuinely - data that isn't simply ad hoc is extremely hard, if not impossible, to come by right now).


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## tawnytaylor (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow! How exciting! Best of luck with that!


SuzanneTyrpak said:


> This is cool: Frank just wrote to me and said he's got two movie people interested in *Dating My Vibrator (and other true fiction)*!
> 
> Fingers crossed.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Okay, folks. I thought I would give an update here since so many people read and commented on this thread. I emailed Jeff in reply to his post here and he put me in touch with Frank Weimann. Frank called me two days later and we spoke for about 20 minutes. I ended up sending him two hard copies of _33 A.D._ (I sent an extra just in case he wanted to use a reader.) I sent them on August 11, 2011.

Yesterday I received an email from his assistant. In it, she said Frank had read the books I sent and was impressed, and wanted to offer me an agency agreement. I told her I was interested and she sent me the contract. After looking it over (and having several other people look it over), I had some questions. I emailed my questions to the assistant and she replied quickly.

Long story short, I accepted a contract and now have an agent. I've never worked with one before, so I have no idea what to expect. But there it is. This thread helped me to get a NYC agency interested in my book, even after it had been rejected by so many others over the years.

Thanks, Jeff!


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Good for you, David.

Eight published titles and counting, and from what I can guess is "not bad" sales at the minimum, probably helped your case, too.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Congrats, David, Sibel, and Suzanne! 

Jeff also put me in touch with Frank, and I sent my 3 novels in PDF format. A few days later, I was offered an agency agreement, too. I'd worked with an agent before (when Kinshield was first published), so the agreement looked "standard" to me. Also, Preditors & Editors lists Frank as a reputable agent.

I'm not expecting anything to come of it, but if I got the same news Suzanne got, I'd be on cloud nine bazillion!


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks Craig and KC.

Honestly, I don't know if anything will come of it, either. But if he puts my work in front of a few editors, then it's to the good. Even if they reject the book, I'll still be no better or worse off than I am right now.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Congratulations, David! And KC! Great news!

Vicki


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I think Jeff said someone has to sell 10K in order to get an agent's attention (because sales matter more than quality? LOL)

By that pace, I'm only 9,980 or so copies from getting an agent, too! Which will happen, at current pace, in approximately 2066.

My 100-year-old self can't wait!


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## Artemis Hunt (Aug 23, 2011)

Congrats, David and KC!!


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> I think Jeff said someone has to sell 10K in order to get an agent's attention (because sales matter more than quality? LOL)


How does an agent know someone's sales on Amazon?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

You may be required to show proof of sales, I'd imagine. If it's selling hot enough (by ranking), they'd like forgo that requirement.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Hi KC and David, I just signed with Frank. Sent in the contract yesterday so we'll see what happens. The great thing: he's fine with me continuing to publish my books until he sells them.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> ...Yesterday I received an email from his assistant. In it, she said Frank had read the books I sent and was impressed, and wanted to offer me an agency agreement...


I hope this isn't like one of those "inside showbiz sitcom" situations where "he read the books I sent and was impressed" actually means, "he hasn't read your books but thinks he remembers something someone liked about them that he thinks he can sell, so he wants to lock you up as a client in case there's money to be made."

Which was basically the plot of Season 1 of EPISODES:

http://www.comedy.co.uk/guide/tv/episodes/


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm fairly jaded. I'm from New York. I've had two agents previous to Frank, but I think it's possible to become jaded to the point that you're closing yourself off to possibilities. If someone says they believe in my work, and that someone happens to sell a lot of books to publishers, that can only be a good thing, in my opinion.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> You may be required to show proof of sales, I'd imagine. If it's selling hot enough (by ranking), they'd like forgo that requirement.


I was not asked to show proof, though novelrank will show the history of a book's sales rank, and they could guesstimate from that. I reported my accurate numbers when I wrote to Jeff, and he passed along the info.



SuzanneTyrpak said:


> The great thing: he's fine with me continuing to publish my books until he sells them.


Oops. I didn't ask. I just assumed this to be the case. Until I have a publishing contract in hand, signed, sealed and delivered, my books will be for sale.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

kcmay said:


> Oops. I didn't ask. I just assumed this to be the case. Until I have a publishing contract in hand, signed, sealed and delivered, my books will be for sale.


Frank is obviously interested in indies so I'm sure that's fine. Have you signed a contract or is it word of mouth?


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Congrats to David and KC!!


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## Michael Parker (Jun 15, 2011)

About three years ago an agent told me that he wouldn't even consider a novel if he didn't think he could persuade a publisher to do a print run of at least 10,000 copies. He turned mine down!


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

JonnyAndrews said:


> They'll sign tons of indies then market by throwing everyone against a wall
> to see what sticks. That's just not how it needs to be done!


I'll be the fly in the works here and say that this is exactly what's happening with all these new "agents" now. They're scrambling to take advantage of new indie authors who think they need an agent to make sales. It's the same sort of thinking that made new authors accept contracts for 2% royalties back in the early '90's...they just wanted to see their books in print and thought that's what they had to do.

I'm not saying all agents are trolling for free rides, I'm just trying to be the voice of caution. Agents who check your rankings and see that you are already selling well....just have to get you to sign a piece of paper and sit back and do nothing else to rake in 15% of what you sell after you sign. Not that I'm a cynic or anything, but how much effort does it take to send out a *standard* email to new clients saying they have so and so interested, or they're submitting it to a movie producer. Every book signed by a print publisher has movie option clause and editors/agents regularly flag books they think might interest a producer. 99.999999999999% of those never go anywhere. Just look at the percentage of movies produced each year to the number of books published. The cynic in me sees these new "agents" suggesting to indie authors that their books might earn a movie contrace and a whole flock of red flags go up.

I hope some of those deals are real and genuine, but I suspect most are just smoke and mirrors to get indies to sign away that 15%...and you do realize that any advertising or promotion costs the agent incurs will also likely be deducted from your earnings??

I just hope all this doesn't come back to bite people in the ass.

As difficult as it is to find a good agent, it's hell to cut loose from a bad one.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

My contract states that the agent will only earn 15% on sales that he's generated. He collects nothing on my self published books, and I can continue to self publish until a book is sold. Yes, I would like to see my books in bookstores and libraries. I would like to see my books selling overseas. I'm interested in other media. That's why I signed with a high powered agent with offices in NY and LA. 

Perhaps agents are scrambling to pick up indie authors with good sales, and that's fine. If an agent can sell my work, and get me a good deal, I think that's great. I won't be signing any publishing contracts for 2% or $1,000.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

marshacanham said:


> Agents who check your rankings and see that you are already selling well....just have to get you to sign a piece of paper and sit back and do nothing else to rake in 15% of what you sell after you sign.


I don't know of any reputable agents who are doing that, let alone any being recommended on this board who do that. Where are you getting your information?



marshacanham said:


> Not that I'm a cynic or anything, but how much effort does it take to send out a *standard* email to new clients saying they have so and so interested, or they're submitting it to a movie producer.


If those publishers and movie producers accepted emails directly from authors, none of us would need an agent!  And once agents do get a response to their "standard" email, they negotiate better terms for us with their many years experience. It's what agents do. Unless those moguls come to us, most of us pretty much need an agent if we want to expand beyond Amazon, BN, iTunes store and Smashwords. It's perfectly OK if you don't want to, but I do, and it looks like I'm not alone.



marshacanham said:


> I hope some of those deals are real and genuine, but I suspect most are just smoke and mirrors to get indies to sign away that 15%...and you do realize that any advertising or promotion costs the agent incurs will also likely be deducted from your earnings??


That's pretty standard, and most of us are talking about a single agent in this thread. Frank has a good reputation, 25 years experience, and represents a lot of clients. I did my homework before signing. This isn't some overcoat-wearing guy in a dark alley with contracts hand-written in blood pinned to the inside of his coat.


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

kcmay said:


> I don't know of any reputable agents who are doing that, let alone any being recommended on this board who do that. Where are you getting your information?
> 
> If those publishers and movie producers accepted emails directly from authors, none of us would need an agent!  And once agents do get a response to their "standard" email, they negotiate better terms for us with their many years experience. It's what agents do. Unless those moguls come to us, most of us pretty much need an agent if we want to expand beyond Amazon, BN, iTunes store and Smashwords. It's perfectly OK if you don't want to, but I do, and it looks like I'm not alone.
> 
> That's pretty standard, and most of us are talking about a single agent in this thread. Frank has a good reputation, 25 years experience, and represents a lot of clients. I did my homework before signing. This isn't some overcoat-wearing guy in a dark alley with contracts hand-written in blood pinned to the inside of his coat.


Okay, firstly, let me say I have nothing against agents. I've had a great agent for over 20 years (which is where I come by my information and experience, by the way). But even good agents have been caught off guard by this whole new wave of ebooks and indie authors. To be a good agent these days, they have to negotiate a better deal than the 25% royalty rate publishers are trying to make the "standard" these days for ebooks. Print book rates vary from 10% down to the ridiculous 2%, with 8% being "standard". Any agent worth his braggadocio will get the 8% and that rate can at least be justified by the cost of printing the actual book, covering the expense for all the editorial processes, cover art, promotion, distribution etc.

The 2% royalties I referred to were snapped up by countless authors back in the early 90's when the market was flooded and publishers could get away with tossing out a thousand dollar advance and an insulting royalty rate. The writers who signed basically wanted to sign so they could find some validation in being a "published author"

All I'm saying now, is be careful who you sign with and what your reasons for signing might be. If you think having an agent "validates" you as a writer...that's the wrong reason for getting an agent. Think long and hard before you sign away that 15%. If you're not selling in the thousands per month and if you're not writing more than one book per year...chances are just getting an agent isn't going to do you much good. There are always exceptions, of course, but you have to be realistic in this business or it will deflate you. I know some excellent authors who have literally been crushed by the pressure, by the disappointments, by the indifference of their "great" agents to do anything for them. I've watched friends in the business get all hyped up about signing with a "great, well respected" agent only to hear, a year or so later, that they can't reach the guy on the phone, their calls don't get returned, they've done nothing for their careers, can't sell a book or worse...is advising them to simply take what the publisher is offering because "that's standard". If it's so standard, you can do it yourself and save the 15%.

I'm certainly NOT trying to discourage anyone from aiming higher. Print books, movie rights...they should be everyone's goal/dream. I'm just saying make sure your glasses are clear and not rose-tinted when you sign ANY contract. *s*


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Here's what's odd about this trend in which authors that sell 10,000+ ebooks (or whatever the number is) are getting interest from publishers.
> 
> 1) Low pricing typically leads to more sales. So, generally, a 99 cent author is going to be way ahead of a $4.95 author in terms of sales volume. That skews the results. On the flip side, it's possible to sell a ton of ebooks at higher prices.
> 
> ...


You've said it perfectly!


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Congrats David, KC and Suzanne,

Frank also read my books, said he loved them and sent me a contract.  I brought it to my lawyer who revised it - basically changing it so I keep all of the e-book rights. I sent them the revised contract on Thursday and we'll see what happens.  I might have just shot myself in the foot  - but I simply did not want to sell those rights.  

Frank and Elyse have been wonderful so far.  I let them know that I was revising the contract in order to protect my e-book business before I sent them the revised copy.  But, I'll just wait and see what happens next.

Best of luck to all of you!

Terri


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

And that's exactly what you should do...retain the ebook rights.  If that puts the agent off, then that should send up a little flag. And that's all I'll say on it, since I seem to be in the minority here as far as being the class cynic *honest, genuine smile*


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

marshacanham said:


> And that's exactly what you should do...retain the ebook rights. If that puts the agent off, then that should send up a little flag. And that's all I'll say on it, since I seem to be in the minority here as far as being the class cynic *honest, genuine smile*


Thanks Marsha.  This is what works for me...but, I know that everyone has to do what works for them. I know there have been print only deals out there - but I'm not sure if by retaining my e-book rights I'm handicapping the agent. So, I'm not saying that if he decides not to represent me he isn't a good guy, he's just not the right fit for me. I have been impressed so far and I tend to be pretty cynical too.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

For me, I took the attitude of, "Well, I'll look at anything." 

By signing a contract with an agent, I'm not "signing away my ebook rights," I'm allowing an agent to submit my book to publishers. If they want ebook rights, I'll look at a contract, but I'm not obligated to sign anything I don't like.

And that's what happened. I didn't sign it. Avon wanted ebook rights, with no advance and 25% net royalties. I said no. My agent supported me in this decision.

Just saying you don't have to sign away your ebook rights if you don't want to, even if you sign up with an agent. 

Vicki


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Victorine said:


> For me, I took the attitude of, "Well, I'll look at anything."
> 
> By signing a contract with an agent, I'm not "signing away my ebook rights," I'm allowing an agent to submit my book to publishers. If they want ebook rights, I'll look at a contract, but I'm not obligated to sign anything I don't like.
> 
> ...


Thank you - that's good to know.


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## normcowie (Jun 21, 2011)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (snort!)

Love to see the agents scrambling now, but look how they still set the bar like they are offering something. Been there, done that.

(God, I sound bitter)


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Just wanted to follow up.  Frank accepted the changes I made to the contract and I signed with him today.  I'm pretty excited.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Great Terri! Congratulations.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Congrats. Keep us updated.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> Here's what's odd about this trend in which authors that sell 10,000+ ebooks (or whatever the number is) are getting interest from publishers.
> 1) Low pricing typically leads to more sales. So, generally, a 99 cent author is going to be way ahead of a $4.95 author in terms of sales volume. That skews the results. On the flip side, it's possible to sell a ton of ebooks at higher prices....


Good point. The publishers are not going to sell at 99 cents. If you are selling real books, I mean selling $5 or so as eBooks, you may not need an agent.

I have nonfiction published directly with traditional publishers..without any prior sale.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks Suzanne and Jan.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Congrats, Terri. Good luck and let us know how things turn out.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks Michael - I will.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Good luck, Terri, I hope you get some fruitful offers.


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## Imogen Rose (Mar 22, 2010)

Congrats, Terri!


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks CJ, Sibel and Imogen! 

Sibel - they were really good with the changes my lawyer made.  Now, the interesting part will be what happens next.


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## Michelle Muto (Feb 1, 2011)

Congrats, Terri & KC!


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

Sibel, I just wanted to say congratulations to you for sticking up for yourself. Under no circumstances could you have accepted that clause, and how fantastic that you stuck up for yourself in that situation. I know how exciting it is to be approached by an agent, but in many cases (I can attest to) it's not all that it's cracked up to be. And there are plenty of them out there, so the right match will eventually happen! Unless, of course, you're doing so well you won't feel like signing with anyone


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

Way to stand your ground, Sibel. The more times that authors do that, the more likely it is that those on the other end will pay attention.  Wishing you the best on the film rights. And have faith - it will all work out for the best in the end.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> Just to give you all an update...
> 
> Frank sent me a standard agency contract the other week and I forwarded it to a lawyer to check out. The main problem for me was that they wanted perpetual rights. I didn't want them to have rights for the life of the copyright in case any publishing/movie contract finished and I got my rights back and wanted to publish again myself (or with another publisher), which would mean I'd have to carry on paying them comission, even though I indie published. They didn't agree to my changes and wouldn't negotiate, so no agent for me! But I think I've done the right thing. At the end of the day this is a business, and I want to be in control. In any other business in the world, someone wouldn't expect ongoing commission for doing a job, even when the job has run out.


Are you kidding me? The "standard" agency contract was for the life of the copyright? That's a terrible, terrible contract. It should be _until the agent quits or is fired_. And there was a refusal to change the wording? This throws up major red flags! And it should for everyone who reads it. You absolutely made the right decision not to sign with this agent.


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## Cyrus Keith (Oct 11, 2011)

Okay, the thing is agents don't get any rights. If this agent wants anything more than a 15% commision for selling format rights to a publisher, they are a shyster. Run away.

An agent negotiates contracts for you with publishers. Publishers sign with you for format distribution rights (print/eBook, audio, etc.). An agent gets no "rights" themselves. You own the copyright to your work, always. That's a different animal.

I assume the agent wanted you to sign with them for exlusive perpetuity, which is also wrong. My own agent has a one-year clause for the first sale (she has one year to find me a publisher, or the contract is null and void), with a 5-year at a time extension at mutual agreement.

just tossing my two cents into the well. Wish you luck.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

The contract Frank sent me said nothing of the kind, yet it looked standard to me. If he sells rights to a publisher and then I fire him as my agent, it's only fair that he continues to receive his 15% for the work he did with that publisher for as long as the book is published with that company. It says nothing about making 15% on work he didn't do.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

It's entirely understandable that Sibel rejected the contract, but the clause guaranteeing 15% commission for length of copyright even if the agent is later fired is fairly common nowadays, it seems to me. I know Barack Obama signed such an agreement with DGLM when he was a Harvard-trained lawyer. You can see the book still advertised on DGLM's site even though he's moved on to a new lit agent. (I've signed two contracts with this clause in it this year, with two different agencies for two different books. But that's just me.)


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Wait, how do you know Barack Obama signed that particular contract? Just because DGLM continues to mention the book on their website?

I can think of a few reasons why a literary agency might advertise that they sold that particular book, no matter what their royalty structure is. I rather suspect that the value of claiming a connection to a US president is greater than any royalties they get from sales of that particular book through their site. I think it highly unlikely that DGLM's name will be the one selling that particular book.

Besides, it's my understanding that the rights for that book never reverted--in which case even under a non-perpetual rights situation, he'd still be giving them a cut.

Perpetual rights causes are common but not standard. My agent doesn't have one, and I know many other agents who do.


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

Just because these clauses are popping up these days (agents being hungrier than ever) does not mean they are standard or acceptable practice. I've had 2 agents and 2 different contracts, and neither ever mentioned such a thing. I would RUN from any such clause. It's not even debatable or negotiable in my mind.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

> Duration: The term of this agreement as exclusive literary agent for your Work begins upon signature of this agreement and shall continue for an initial period of one year after you have presented us an acceptable, i.e., marketable proposal or manuscript, which term shall continue thereafter until terminated in writing by either party. If, however, we succeed in selling the Work during the term of this agreement, the terms set forth herein under the paragraph entitled "Compensation" shall remain in full force and effect *for the full term of copyright of each edition or media adaptation of the Work*. It is understood and agreed that if you wish to terminate this agreement after we have placed your Work (or proposal) with a publisher, or after termination a publisher to whom we have submitted your Work (or proposal) agrees to publish your Work, we will remain the agent of record for that Work and any agreements deriving therefrom for the full aforementioned term. Our right to compensation for a sale or disposition of rights, once earned, shall continue after this agreement terminates.


This is my contract's duration. Bolding is mine. If he sells mass market rights to ABC Publisher, he *should* (in my mind) receive compensation for as long as ABC publishes the mass market edition. I have no problem with this.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Courtney Milan said:


> Wait, how do you know Barack Obama signed that particular contract? Just because DGLM continues to mention the book on their website?


I read about this somewhere on the web, can't remember where now as it's been six months or so. Could probably verify. I'm a DGLM client.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2011)

modwitch said:


> does Frank get 15%, even if all he did was email a publisher once upon a time, and that had nothing to do with the actual sale?


Considering his practice of quickly shopping books around to anyone in the business, this is a very likely scenario.

I'm no expert either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

modwitch said:


> I'm no lawyer, KC, but I'd have two questions about that clause:
> 
> 1) Do they only have to sell one kind of rights to get a cut of all of them? Say they sell your foreign rights to Spain. And then you part ways, and fifteen months from now, Amazon comes knocking, and wants your ebook rights?
> 
> 2) If they submit your work to every known publisher, and you terminate the contract, and ANY of those publishers signs you in the future (even if another agent is doing the work), does Frank get 15%, even if all he did was email a publisher once upon a time, and that had nothing to do with the actual sale? Note that I'm not accusing Frank of anything here, just trying to understand what the words of the contract actually mean.


I'm no lawyer either but FWIW:

Regarding #1 if any agent has ever tried to claim that wouldn't the blogosphere have a record of it somewhere by now?

On #2, yes, that's what the language could mean, or that's how I interpreted it when I read the LGI contract myself. I proposed adding a time limit of one year and the agency agreed to the change.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm sure they would've negotiated, Sibel, if not for the "in perpetuity" clause, given they did negotiate and give in to me on that clause by adding a time limit.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I doubt rights will ever be reverting in the new world of "perpetual" ebooks, at least with the big publishers. But additional rights might be an issue (like if you sold subsidiary rights now). My bigger concern with that clause is it doesn't look like it puts a time limit on being the agency of record for a submitted proposal. So in theory (again, my reading, and not a lawyer), this type of scenario could easily happen:
> 
> 1) Frank email blasts a proposal of someone's book to every editor in NY. They don't have to read it, he just has to have a record of sending it.
> 2) Author gives up on Frank (or vice versa), contract is terminated.
> ...


I get tired of seeing everyone write THIS. But&#8230;well&#8230;THIS.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Ultimately if an agency sells my book then the rights in perpetuity clause is going to factor into whether I agree to the sale. It raises the bar. Six figure deal, I'm probably going to take it. Four figure deal, not. Five figures? Will draw a decision tree.


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

Eric C said:


> Ultimately if an agency sells my book then the rights in perpetuity clause is going to factor into whether I agree to the sale. It raises the bar. Six figure deal, I'm probably going to take it. Four figure deal, not. Five figures? Will draw a decision tree.


Eric, attempting to renegotiate your contract in the middle of your agent negotiating a deal with publishers could get real ugly. The agent could get p*ssed off and decide the hell with it and walk away. People are unpredictable. But no doubt it would turn into a nightmare pretty quick. And it'll look bad on the author. The agent could bad-mouth you to the publisher, or raise doubt that you may not act in good faith after you receive your advance, etc. It's not worth the risk.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> I'm sure you're right! And my revised contract for them to look at had a time limit on there but they didn't want to negotiate it. And I think everyone has to do what is right for them, but I felt it wasn't in my best interests to have that clause in there.


Perpetuity is a very long time. If you don't like the wording of a contract don't sign it is the best policy.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

kcmay said:


> This is my contract's duration. Bolding is mine. If he sells mass market rights to ABC Publisher, he *should* (in my mind) receive compensation for as long as ABC publishes the mass market edition. I have no problem with this.


My contract is very similar to kc's contract. My lawyer was fine with it - I think the most important words are, " Our right to compensation for a sale or disposition of rights, *once earned*, shall continue after this agreement terminates." So, the agency states they have to EARN their compensations - it's not a given. By earning it, they have to sell it, not just send it around.

I agree with kc - as long as he earns his compensations, I have no problem giving it to him.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

marshacanham said:


> And that's exactly what you should do...retain the ebook rights. If that puts the agent off, then that should send up a little flag. And that's all I'll say on it, since I seem to be in the minority here as far as being the class cynic *honest, genuine smile*


The contract allows him to represent the ebook rights to publishers. Final say on any publisher contract lies with the author. (That's in the contract, too) so I don't have to sell the ebook rights if I don't like the deal the publisher is offering.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

modwitch said:


> The text to me reads like submitting a proposal that sells after the contract is terminated counts as "earned." I don't think anyone objects to paying an agent for sales they actually make - the muddy ground is what would happen if a sale came after the contract ended, due to your or another agent's work. Hopefully it won't cause anyone problems, but I'm paying attention, in case I'm ever in any of your shoes .


modwitch - I'm obviously not a lawyer and I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night -  - so, at this point, I am (or already have  ) taking my lawyer's advice and moving forward. I too am hoping that this won't cause any problems. but, if it does I can be the poster child for my favorite demotivational poster - http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others. "  And I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Terri, hopefully Frank will land you a nice deal and the whole point will be moot . Truly, for me, this is about understanding what to watch for, rather than trying to backseat not-lawyer what anyone has already done. (And where lawyers clearly don't agree - that's always comforting  ).


Thanks modwitch!  Really, we are all learning together and we are so unique in this publishing world that I think we should be talking to each other and figuring out how this is done. My latest book has been in the top five hottest new releases under "women sleuths" for almost four weeks. I've been playing leapfrog with Janet Evanovich and Sue Grafton. How do you represent something like that to a publisher? None of us are "untried" - but none of us are traditional. I really like that we are all trying to figure this out together.

Terri


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Indeed. I've been having some conversations with Trident, and we're having that same "how do you explain success so it makes sense to people who don't really get ebooks" back-and-forth. We're sitting in virgin territory - it's definitely going to be interesting!


Yes it is - and it's nice to have good friends to explore the new territory with!


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2011)

*...for the full term of copyright of each edition and media adaptation of the work.*

Interesting sentence. What does "each edition" mean? Each "edition" of the book? In other words, any time--any place--it is published? And, of course, in every other format--forever--it would seem. Oh, sorry, I mean until the copyright expires. Yikes!

Correction: The quote in bold above was not a complete sentence, but part of this following sentence: If, however, we succeed in selling the Work during the term of this agreement, the terms set forth herein under the paragraph entitled "Compensation" shall remain in full force and effect for the full term of copyright of each edition or media adaptation of the Work.

Again, I ask, what does that mean specifically?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

This week I had one large publishing house make me a verbal offer for my complete (not all written yet) series to be followed by a written contract. One thing I've learned from reading this thread is I'm having my entertainment lawyer review it.

Thanks for airing your contract language; I appreciate it.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> This week I had one large publishing house make me a verbal offer for my complete (not all written yet) series to be followed by a written contract. One thing I've learned from reading this thread is I'm having my entertainment lawyer review it.
> 
> Thanks for airing your contract language; I appreciate it.


Wonderful news! Do tell us what your lawyer catches.


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## marshacanham (Jul 30, 2010)

MasterBlaster said:


> *...for the full term of copyright of each edition and media adaptation of the work.*
> 
> Interesting sentence. What does "each edition" mean? Each "edition" of the book? In other words, any time--any place--it is published? And, of course, in every other format--forever--it would seem. Oh, sorry, I mean until the copyright expires. Yikes!
> 
> ...


Means exactly what it says. They get their percentage of every sale of every edition of that particular book until the copyright runs out. Could be decades.

Only clause worse than that that I've seen is one that assigns "compensation" to the agent "and his heirs"


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2011)

The sharks smell indie blood.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MasterBlaster said:


> Again, I ask, what does that mean specifically?


What it means is "As long as the book is in print with the acquiring publisher." And that's a quote from Frank himself.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

kcmay said:


> What it means is "As long as the book is in print with the acquiring publisher." And that's a quote from Frank himself.


Thanks kc.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

I understand that's what you understand, but I understood differently and asked Frank for clarification. He reaffirmed that my interpretation was correct, which is why I'm totally OK with it.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2011)

kcmay said:


> I understand that's what you understand, but I understood differently and asked Frank for clarification. He reaffirmed that my interpretation was correct, which is why I'm totally OK with it.


That's fine that you're okay with it, and I mean that most sincerely. My own opinion is that "Frank" telling you what it means is not as significant as how the written statement might be legally interpreted later. Why does he have to tell you what it means? It should be written clearly enough that you shouldn't have to ask him what it means. This is simply my opinion, so don't take offense. Also, if sibelhodge's lawyer finds a different meaning than the one "Frank" claims--that's not a good thing. Is "Frank's" contract just poorly written? If so, that's not a good sign either.


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

sibelhodge said:


> There was also a clause that said, "Our compensation shall be a commission of 15% of all gross proceeds from the disposition of rights to the Work and any works derived therefrom." My lawyer said this was very broad and, very possibly, any sequels derived from the work or a series based on the work could have commission claimed on them, even though the sequel wasn't specifically stated in the contract. This was one clause I wanted to amend to exclude any sequels (because there already is one) or a further series.


Oh my god. This is actually getting worse, and I didn't think it _could_ get worse. "All works derived therefrom"? This absolutely means sequels, and in fact could be broadened in scope to possibly include works in other mediums. So all the agent has to do is sell one book and he's got rights to all derivative, spinoff works into perpetuity? LMAO
Sorry Sibel. I don't mean to make light of this. I'm just incredulous over this. Let's all hope this does not become "standard" for any industry.


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

Oh, I love the Passive Guy blog. How cool that you retained him to go over the contract!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Yep, the Passive Guy rocks and I'll definitely be trying to hire him if I ever deal with any US contracts.

Advice I've heard (either from him, or Kristine Kathryn Rusch, or both) is that, if the contract term isn't clear and the person/company you're contracting with says it means X, then get them to change the contract so that it says X.  This is because their assurances that it means X won't stand up in court if they (or someone who takes over from them) later decide to interpret things differently.  If they won't change it then it's a red flag.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

What I'm finding alarming in this exchange is that an agent is being hired to look out after the author's interests, yet a lawyer must also be engaged to make sure the agent's contract is on the up and up -- and the agent contract is coming up short. In a standard agreement yet. What exactly is the agent's primary purpose again? Would an agent allow such unfavorable language in a publisher's contract to go unchallenged? Would you want your agent to NOT challenge such language and simply accept it as standard?

It's certainly author's discretion whether to accept the inherent risks, and the lifetime benefit may well outweigh the potential for abuse. Everyone's path is different. But frank discussions like this help us all be on the lookout for potential obstacles in our paths.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

MasterBlaster said:


> That's fine that you're okay with it, and I mean that most sincerely. My own opinion is that "Frank" telling you what it means is not as significant as how the written statement might be legally interpreted later. Why does he have to tell you what it means? It should be written clearly enough that you shouldn't have to ask him what it means. This is simply my opinion, so don't take offense. Also, if sibelhodge's lawyer finds a different meaning than the one "Frank" claims--that's not a good thing. Is "Frank's" contract just poorly written? If so, that's not a good sign either.


What is most important is what the contract legally specifies--not what Frank "says" it means. It may very well be his honest intention saying it means one thing. However, THAT should be with the body of the contract. It should not be open to interpretation of various legal meanings which lawyers can joust with. A written executed contract takes precedence over what someone says, unless maybe you have a recording.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Getting his clarification in writing via email should be enough if there ever was an issue with this clause down the road.


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