# Piracy, Use Without Permission, Fake Returns, Over Sharing of Devices: Questions



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

I've seen a lot of talk about piracy on kboards and much discussion about whether it's worth the effort or whether it's simply whack-a-mole undertaking.

IMHO I think the answer as to whether trying to reduce or eliminate piracy of your work is worth the effort depends on the author and his/her body of work.

For an author starting out or with only a relative few books to his or her credit, piracy likely will not cause harm and may actually be a net benefit.

For other authors, such as those with many works or some modicum of success, some piracy is part and parcel with being an author. However, I believe too much piracy can derail success.

I've been a professionally published author since 1995 and have over 150 books to my credit (William Stanek for technical works, William Robert Stanek for learning books and compilations, and Robert Stanek for everything else I write). My books have generated well over $100 million in sales at retail. Or put another way over 7.5 million people have purchased my works, $59.99 at retail x 2 million = ~$120 million and the other 5.5 million+ sales at other price points were gravy.

I've been researching the impact of piracy on sales of my books for many years. Part of this research has been tracking the number of illegal downloads, which runs into millions of copies, and the sites where these downloads are/were available. Many of my most valuable properties were made available for illegal downloading, including audiobook and book products that retailed for $29.99 to $59.99. The total value at retail of the stolen: $100 million+.

I have no illusions that my sales would have been twice what they were if my work hadn't been illegally downloaded by the millions. I do, however, believe a considerable portion would have. The exact portion is unknowable, but even if only 10% that's tens of millions of dollars in sales.

How many content creators have been impacted similarly? My thoughts are that thousands have been. Maybe not as considerably as myself, but certainly collectively this pirating represents billions of lost sales annually.

For authors concerned about piracy, there are an increasing number of tools. You can try sending a DMCA Takedown notice to the site owner, such as the following:

##

DMCA
VIA Email at [[ISPHosting[at]isp.com]]

Re: Copyright Claim

To [[ISP Hosting Company Where Your Work Is Being Infringed]]:

I am the copyright owner of [[BOOK] in contract with [PUBLISHER]] being infringed at:

[[http://www <list the exact link or links to where the infringement is taking place>]]

This letter is official notification under the provisions of Section 512(c) of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA") to effect removal of the above-reported infringements. I request that you immediately issue a cancellation message as specified in RFC 1036 for the specified postings and prevent the infringer, who is identified by its Web address, from posting the infringing photographs to your servers in the future. Please be advised that law requires you, as a service provider, to "expeditiously remove or disable access to" the infringing book downloads upon receiving this notice. Noncompliance may result in a loss of immunity for liability under the DMCA.

I have a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of here is not authorized by me, the copyright holder, or the law. The information provided here is accurate to the best of my knowledge. I swear under penalty of perjury that I am the copyright holder. Please send me at the address noted below a prompt response indicating the actions you have taken to resolve this matter.

Sincerely,

[[Your Name]]

[[Your Email]]

[[Publisher and Publisher email <if you have a publisher> ]]

##

Several services also have been started recently to help authors fight piracy. One of those services is www.Muso.com. Muso.com offers a free trial period and then acts as a paid monthly service.

I've tested out the Muso service for some time to see how it worked and whether it was useful to me. For me, the free trial was the most useful aspect of the service as it quickly identified all the locations where my books were being pirated (as opposed to me manually performing searches of all my titles, variations of title names, my name, variations of my name, etc).

If you use the monthly service, you can have them send out takedown notices for you. Once you have these locations, you also can send your own DMCA Takedown Notices where there were instances of actual piracy. However, you still need to check each location. For example, about 1/3 of the sites identified weren't actually pirating my work and about 1/3 weren't actually full pirate copies of my work-they were simply samples. For those remaining that were actually pirated copies, I could have specified that I wanted the service to send automated take down notices.

A related problem I am seeing increasingly are shared kindles and fake returns. The shared kindle problem relates to Amazon allowing a single account to have multiple devices associated with it, thus allowing a single copy of a book to be used simultaneously on these multiple devices, allows multiple people to simultaneously access the same books across these multiple devices.

The fake returns problem is where someone buys books, downloads them to their kindle (or kindles), turns off the wi-fi connection on the device (or devices) and then returns the books they've purchased.

Both problems can be mitigated by Amazon.

Amazon knows where devices associated with a single account are being used. When a single account is being used by five different people (one in Miami, one in Bismark, one in Boston, one in Tampa, and one in Los Angeles), there's a problem.

Amazon also knows how many purchased e-items a person has returned and just as Walmart, Kmart or Sears does to prevent fraud, Amazon needs to start tracking fraudulent returns. Occasionally returning an ebook or other e-item is typical. Repeatedly or routinely returning an ebook or other e-items is abuse.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> Amazon knows where devices associated with a single account are being used. When a single account is being used by five different people (one in Miami, one in Bismark, one in Boston, one in Tampa, and one in Los Angeles), there's a problem.


One small quibble--I don't think Amazon would use this alone as a basis for intervening with an account. Many of our members have multiple users on their accounts, to include parents, siblings and children living in different cities. My brother, who lives in Maryland while I'm in Virginia, is on my account. Ann's brother lives in New Jersey and is on her account. We get questions all the time from people who say they've bought their elderly out of town relative a Kindle and are trying to troubleshoot it long distance. Others have children in college.

Just wanted to point this out. 

Betsy


----------



## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> A related problem I am seeing increasingly are shared kindles and fake returns. The shared kindle problem relates to Amazon allowing a single account to have multiple devices associated with it, thus allowing a single copy of a book to be used simultaneously on these multiple devices, allows multiple people to simultaneously access the same books across these multiple devices.


I totally approve of shared kindle accounts. There's no way I would buy a book twice, once for myself and once for my spouse. You can argue that you can't both read a physical book at the same time, but realistically, nobody buys two copies. You just squabble over who's turn it is to read and the one who finishes first has to keep their yap shut until the other finishes.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> If you use the monthly service, you can have them send out takedown notices for you. Once you have these locations, you also can send your own DMCA Takedown Notices where there were instances of actual piracy. However, you still need to check each location. For example, about 1/3 of the sites identified weren't actually pirating my work and about 1/3 weren't actually full pirate copies of my work-they were simply samples. For those remaining that were actually pirated copies, I could have specified that I wanted the service to send automated take down notices.


Trying to understand why I would pay a service $19 USD a month to basically conduct a Google search for me when I still have to do the research myself to see if the search results are legitimate (and by your own admission, the service is only 33% accurate). The fact is you are still playing Whack-a-mole, only now you are spending $228 USD a year for the privilege.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I have no problems with shared kindles, I do it myself.  It's no different than me reading a paperback and then handing it to my wife.  I've had more than one reader write to let me know they bought a book and then pestered their spouse/child/parent/cousin to borrow and read it.  I'm 100% cool with this. 

As for the returns, I would ask what proof you have that these are fake returns?  We hear that a lot on these boards, but the bottom line is that Amazon doesn't share return data so it's all speculation.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> One small quibble--I don't think Amazon would use this alone as a basis for intervening with an account. Many of our members have multiple users on their accounts, to include parents, siblings and children living in different cities. My brother, who lives in Maryland while I'm in Virginia, is on my account. Ann's brother lives in New Jersey and is on her account. We get questions all the time from people who say they've bought their elderly out of town relative a Kindle and are trying to troubleshoot it long distance. Others have children in college.
> 
> Just wanted to point this out.
> 
> Betsy


At some point though, I do believe it becomes abuse. Sharing a single copy of an ebook with your spouse or a child is to be expected. Sharing a single copy of an ebook purchased with five friends is not expected and specifically when the five friends are all reading the work at the same time on five different kindles downloaded through a single shared account.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Katie Elle said:


> I totally approve of shared kindle accounts. There's no way I would buy a book twice, once for myself and once for my spouse. You can argue that you can't both read a physical book at the same time, but realistically, nobody buys two copies. You just squabble over who's turn it is to read and the one who finishes first has to keep their yap shut until the other finishes.


Exactly. The LAST thing in the world I want to do is criminalize the behavior of those who have bought a legal copy of my book. The more restrictions you put on a book's use, the more likely people are to look for workarounds. And when they start looking for workarounds, you drive them into the pirate domain.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I have no problems with shared kindles, I do it myself. It's no different than me reading a paperback and then handing it to my wife. I've had more than one reader write to let me know they bought a book and then pestered their spouse/child/parent/cousin to borrow and read it. I'm 100% cool with this.
> 
> As for the returns, I would ask what proof you have that these are fake returns? We hear that a lot on these boards, but the bottom line is that Amazon doesn't share return data so it's all speculation.


As far as I know, Amazon has no program in place to identify return fraud for e-items. A program should be put in place.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Robert Stanek said:


> As far as I know, Amazon has no program in place to identify return fraud for e-items. A program should be put in place.


I disagree. I've worked for large retailers and they always have plans in place to deal with return fraud. They just don't publicize them. There's another thread here on kboards where one person outed themselves (in another fora) as a serial returner whose account got whacked by Amazon. As sellers on Amazon, we are essentially just vendors peddling our goods through their engine. They're under no obligation to give us any details for their 'secret sauce' so to speak.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> As far as I know, Amazon has no program in place to identify return fraud for e-items. A program should be put in place.


Unless you have close contacts in the bowels of Amazon's corporate lairs, I'm not sure why you would expect to be told about their policies. Most retailers have corporate policies regarding shrinkage, but those polices aren't shared with the public. They are internal procedures. You don't advertise to the criminals how you track them.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unless you have close contacts in the bowels of Amazon's corporate lairs, I'm not sure why you would expect to be told about their policies. Most retailers have corporate policies regarding shrinkage, but those polices aren't shared with the public. They are internal procedures. You don't advertise to the criminals how you track them.


Well, there are solutions that would prevent a person from turning off their Wi-Fi and then fake returning an item. As an example, Amazon could simply reply with an automated message, that says turn-on the Wi-Fi on your device to complete the return.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

I do check some of the main sites where my trad-pubbed books are pirated, like Scribd, and ask my publishers to send take-down notices. I haven't had much of a problem with my ebooks, honestly.

I don't worry about Amazon returns. I'd far, far rather people think that ebooks are easy to use and buy than think it's too much of a hassle and just not bother at all. I've seen how easy it is for new Kindle users to buy a book by accident (especially when on some models the screen savers are ads ... with buy links ...). And you know, if someone reads one of my books and dislikes it so much then want their .99 or 4.99 back, fine. It's not worth stressing over. I get a few returns, but not that many as a percentage. I want the people who buy my books to be people who read them and enjoyed them and felt good about paying what I charged. That's my audience.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

1001nightspress said:


> I do check some of the main sites where my trad-pubbed books are pirated, like Scribd, and ask my publishers to send take-down notices. I haven't had much of a problem with my ebooks, honestly.
> 
> I don't worry about Amazon returns. I'd far, far rather people think that ebooks are easy to use and buy than think it's too much of a hassle and just not bother at all. I've seen how easy it is for new Kindle users to buy a book by accident (especially when on some models the screen savers are ads ... with buy links ...). And you know, if someone reads one of my books and dislikes it so much then want their .99 or 4.99 back, fine. It's not worth stressing over. I get a few returns, but not that many as a percentage. I want the people who buy my books to be people who read them and enjoyed them and felt good about paying what I charged. That's my audience.


If a person accidentally purchased an ebook, they wouldn't be turning off the Wi-Fi on their device and then fake returning the item. They'd be returning the ebook right there on the device and would have no problem whatsoever with a policy that checked to see if they were attempting a fake return.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Robert Stanek said:


> Sharing a single copy of an ebook purchased with five friends is not expected and particularly when the five friends are all reading the work at the same time through a single shared account.


But that is typical reader behavior. If I read a good book in high school, that same paperback would make it through the hands of every one of the friends I hung out with in the upstairs cafeteria. I wasn't photocopying and reselling the text of the book, but I was definitely giving it legs.  Reading has always been a community activity in that respect.


----------



## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

First I rolled my eyes at the subject line.  If you're trying to float a business on such a thin wire that someone borrowing a friends Kindle with your book on it is going to bankrupt you then your business model has way bigger problems.

Then I read your post.

First, you're a HUGE outlyer.  Like top one one hundredth 0.0001 of a percent.  Millions of sales with hundreds of millions in revenue.  Yes, I think it would be very much worth it for you to (probably) hire someone to fire off DMCAs once a month or once a quarter.

As far as people sharing Amazon accounts.  Well there isn't anything you can do about that.  Your only option is to choose to use DRM but Amazon's DRM policy still allows for that one purchase to be used on up to five devices.  So when mom and dad send their triplets off to college, they can buy three kindles, link them to the same account and only buy the super expensive text books once and all three kids have them.  You or your publisher has agreed to these terms when you made the digital version of your book available through Amazon.  

The same goes for fake returns.  No giant superstore like Walmart of Amazon is going to punish every shopper by not allowing returns, nor are they going to make them jump through a bunch of hoops to prove innocence.  Walmart fights this by not giving cash back, but reimburses with a gift card.  Once they have your money, you never get it back.  Amazon could do something similar, but for now chooses to refund with cash.  Again, this is completely out of your control and part of the agreement when you let them sell your product.

It's a side effect of a positive customer experience for Amazon customers, not your customers.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> At some point though, I do believe it becomes abuse. Sharing a single copy of an ebook with your spouse or a child is to be expected. Sharing a single copy of an ebook purchased with five friends is not expected and particularly when the five friends are all reading the work at the same time through a single shared account.


If all of those people own Kindles are on my account (which means they can buy books using my account information), yeah, they have access to my books. Amazon has been very clear on that, and, as a Kindle owner, that's what I want. That's not an abuse. Illegally copying books from one device to another, that's abuse. When someone not on my account wants to borrow a Kindle book, if they are a good enough friend, I loan them one of my backup Kindles.  If they are not that good a friend, I recommend the library. 

As far as I know, publishers can limit the number of simultaneous uses for a book. At least they used to be able to. The default used to be six for books with DRM, but I've seen books with fewer.

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Exactly. The LAST thing in the world I want to do is criminalize the behavior of those who have bought a legal copy of my book. The more restrictions you put on a book's use, the more likely people are to look for workarounds. And when they start looking for workarounds, you drive them into the pirate domain.


Julie!!

We were going to send out a search party for you....haven't seen you recently. We were just discussing it in the smoke-filled Admin caves. (Not as relates to this thread, just in general. )

Betsy


----------



## Jennifer R P (Oct 19, 2012)

Not only that, but I have the Kindle app on my desktop and also on my phone. I don't want to be dinged for some kind of "device abuse" if I go overseas and connect my phone to wi-fi.

Going after piracy too excessively, especially by using means that penalize perfectly legitimate customers, actually makes people pirate books and software more.

I know many, many people who have admitted to me to pirating software they would otherwise have bought because the pirated copy didn't have always-online DRM or something else obnoxious. It's hard to compete with free. It's even harder when the free version is actually worth more to the customer.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

SBJones said:


> First I rolled my eyes at the subject line. If you're trying to float a business on such a thin wire that someone borrowing a friends Kindle with your book on it is going to bankrupt you then your business model has way bigger problems.
> 
> Then I read your post.
> 
> ...


In the scenario, I'm discussing the friend is not borrowing a friend's kindle. The 5 friends all have their own kindles, but they share 1 account so that when any one person using the account buy's a book all 5 kindles get that book. The book then exists on all 5 friends kindles where YES the kindle itself can be borrowed out.

I haven't checked recently, but I believe Amazon may actually allow up to 7 devices on 1 account.

I'm not overly concerned with piracy, borrowing, etc. The post was meant to open discussion on important issues related to use, author rights, piracy, etc.

As I mentioned in my original post, the issue of piracy is one each author must consider for themselves.

The issue of fair use also is an issue each author must consider for themselves. Thanks!


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> I haven't checked recently, but I believe Amazon may actually allow up to 7 devices on 1 account.


I don't believe there is a limit. I currently have on my account:
two Kindle 1s
basic Kindle ($69)
two Paperwhites (one to be given away at Christmas)
a Kindle Touch
an original Fire
two Fire 7" HDXs (one to be given away at Christmas)
a Fire HDX 8.9"

That's nine ten. Forgot my brothers K1, still on my account. So ten. (Yes, I'm a collector. ) And I've downloaded books to all of them in testing. This is not abuse.

I know members who have more (my co-mod Heather AKA LuvMy5Brats). And that's not counting my apps. I'm allowed ten devices to access my music in Amazon's cloud.

What Amazon will limit, if the publisher sets it, is the number of simultaneous devices that a book can be on. The default used to be six; but DRM-free books don't usually have a limit, and I have seen books limited to one simultaneous use. But those are set by the publisher, as far as I know.

Betsy


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> If a person accidentally purchased an ebook, they wouldn't be turning off the Wi-Fi on their device and then fake returning the item. They'd be returning the ebook right there on the device and would have no problem whatsoever with a policy that checked to see if they were attempting a fake return.


Well, in the case of my mother, she didn't even know she'd purchased the books till several days later. And then there was another delay because she couldn't figure out how to return something, and needed my help. So that return came from a different IP address than the initial accidental purchase (which she did in a Starbucks). Would your 'system' flag that as a fraudulent return? What is your definition of a fraudulent return, anyway?

I guess if you want to worry about it, nothing I say will change that. I only meant my comment to mean that I don't consider it something worth worrying about. YMMV.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

1001nightspress said:


> Well, in the case of my mother, she didn't even know she'd purchased the books till several days later. And then there was another delay because she couldn't figure out how to return something, and needed my help. So that return came from a different IP address than the initial accidental purchase (which she did in a Starbucks). Would your 'system' flag that as a fraudulent return? What is your definition of a fraudulent return, anyway?
> 
> I guess if you want to worry about it, nothing I say will change that. I only meant my comment to mean that I don't consider it something worth worrying about. YMMV.


Good questions. A person like your mother who is returning the item on the device itself would never have a problem with a simple check that looks at whether the Wi-Fi on the device is turned on. She's already on the device itself and doing the return.

As I've mentioned, fake returns involve a person buying e-items, turning off the Wi-Fi on their device or devices, and then returning those items. Because they've purposely turned off the Wi-Fi, the e-items they returned remain available. As a simple solution, Amazon could send an automated message/alert stating to complete the return, turn on the Wi-Fi on the device or devices.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> Good questions. A person like your mother who is returning the item on the device itself would never have a problem with a simple check that looks at whether the Wi-Fi on the device is turned on. She's already on the device itself and doing the return.
> 
> As I've mentioned, fake returns involve a person buying e-items, turning off the Wi-Fi on their device or devices, and then returning those items. Because they've purposely turned off the Wi-Fi, the e-items they returned remain available. As a simple solution, Amazon could send an automated message/alert stating to complete the return, turn on the Wi-Fi on the device or devices.


But we didn't do the return from her device, on wifi. We did it on my desktop computer, at my house, while the wifi on her device was off. She couldn't figure out how to do a return on her actual Kindle (she's 85, and not very tech-y).

The items I helped my husband return we also didn't do on his device but when we got home, on my desktop. His wifi was used in South America--and it was an accidental purchase (he has that same screen saver problem). So it wasn't "fake"--but it sounds like your proposed system would flag it as such. Telling him he can only do the return from that specific device is (to me) getting into the realm of "annoying." Why can't he just do it from his Amazon account? See, I don't want to annoy legitimate customers. Not with my books, not with any books, or they'll stop using ebooks.

I believe Amazon already monitors for serial returners, and will shut down a user's ability to return items if they return too many. Other than going inside someone's head to x-ray their thoughts, I'm not sure how you can really determine whether a review is "fake" or not. Amazon does ask the reason that you are returning an item, but a person could always lie.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I don't believe there is a limit. I currently have on my account:
> two Kindle 1s
> basic Kindle ($69)
> two Paperwhites (one to be given away at Christmas)
> ...


Yikes, that's a lot of devices. I think if an author has specifically allowed his or her work to be used on that many devices, that would be fine. However, Amazon's KDP program does not provide the tools for anyone using the standard service to control this.

Large publishers with individually negotiated contracts with Amazon can control this setting, but individuals, small publishers and anyone else unable to get a directly negotiated contract (pretty much everyone other than the major publishers) have no control over this setting.

For me personally, I think it would far exceed expected fair use of a work if 10 people with 10 devices had 1 account, such that that 1 account allowed a single purchase to be available to all 10 people simultaneously on all 10 devices. You, on other hand, seem to be using the devices for testing and such, which is a different situation.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

1001nightspress said:


> But we didn't do the return from her device, on wifi. We did it on my desktop computer, at my house, while the wifi on her device was off. She couldn't figure out how to do a return on her actual Kindle (she's 85, and not very tech-y).
> 
> The items I helped my husband return we also didn't do on his device but when we got home, on my desktop. His wifi was used in South America--and it was an accidental purchase (he has that same screen saver problem). So it wasn't "fake"--but it sounds like your proposed system would flag it as such. Telling him he can only do the return from that specific device is (to me) getting into the realm of "annoying." Why can't he just do it from his Amazon account? See, I don't want to annoy legitimate customers. Not with my books, not with any books, or they'll stop using ebooks.
> 
> I believe Amazon already monitors for serial returners, and will shut down a user's ability to return items if they return too many. Other than going inside someone's head to x-ray their thoughts, I'm not sure how you can really determine whether a review is "fake" or not. Amazon does ask the reason that you are returning an item, but a person could always lie.


I always love the grandmother scenarios as rationalizations. If your grandmother was at your house, she could have brought the device with her. If she wasn't at your house and is capable of turning on and off the Wi-Fi, she probably could just as easily learn to do returns. Or since she was capable of turning on and off Wi-Fi in the first place, she could simply have turned the Wi-Fi back on when you were prompted that the Wi-Fi needed to be on.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> You, on other hand, seem to be using the devices for testing and such, which is a different situation.


Well, not all of them are mine, and Amazon doesn't know and hasn't asked me what I'm doing with all of these devices. I'm pretty sure they don't know when I download a book to read and when I download a book to test. Mostly, I just use them.  The two newest ones I've tested on because I have them; some things are best checked on a brand new device.

The point is, Amazon places no restrictions on the number of devices that can be on an account, and allows, as a default, simultaneous use restriction of six devices. Amazon is reader-centric, which is why I have ten devices on my account. 

I believe that authors can opt out of DRM for the books they publish as I've seen that commented on here. And I don't think there are any restrictions on the number of devices if DRM is removed. Others can speak to that more.

Betsy


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, not all of them are mine, and Amazon doesn't know and hasn't asked me what I'm doing with all of these devices. I'm pretty sure they don't know when I download a book to read and when I download a book to test. Mostly, I just use them.  The two newest ones I've tested on because I have them; some things are best checked on a brand new device.
> 
> The point is, Amazon places no restrictions on the number of devices that can be on an account, and allows, as a default, simultaneous use restriction of six devices. Amazon is reader-centric, which is why I have ten devices on my account.
> 
> ...


Being reader-centric is one thing; allowing unfair use of works is another; and hiding behind the guise of being reader-centric to allow unreasonable use yet another. A reasonable expectation I as an author have is that my work will be used fairly.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> If she wasn't at your house and is capable of turning on and off the Wi-Fi, she probably could just as easily learn to do returns.


You've obviously never met my husband, the Luddite.  I shudder to think of trying to talk him through doing a return long distance. It's hard enough when he's here in the house.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> You've obviously never met my husband, the Luddite.  I shudder to think of trying to talk him through doing a return long distance. It's hard enough when he's here in the house.


But you left out the easiest part of my response:

Or since she was capable of turning on and off Wi-Fi in the first place, she could simply have turned the Wi-Fi back on when you were prompted that the Wi-Fi needed to be on.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> Being reader-centric is one thing; allowing unfair use of works is another; and hiding behind the guise of being reader-centric to allow unreasonable use yet another. A reasonable expectation I as an author have is that my work will be used fairly.


Ah, that's the rub, isn't it? What constitutes fair use? We seem to differ on that. As a reader, I believe that the terms of service that I bought my Kindle under, and that authors agreed to sell their books under, constitutes "fair use." No one is required to sell through Amazon any more than I am required to buy from them.

I hear Barnes & Noble has a more restrictive policy towards readers' rights. 

Betsy


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ah, that's the rub, isn't it? What constitutes fair use? We seem to differ on that. As a reader, I believe that the terms of service that I bought my Kindle under, and that authors agreed to sell their books under, constitutes "fair use." No one is required to sell through Amazon any more than I am required to buy from them.
> 
> I hear Barnes & Noble has a more restrictive policy towards readers' rights.
> 
> Betsy


As an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.

Amazon has the means to provide change that would be more consistent and in keeping with fair use.

To be clear also, Amazon already provides such options -- it just provides them to an elite class of the very few.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> I always love the grandmother scenarios as rationalizations. If your grandmother was at your house, she could have brought the device with her. If she wasn't at your house and is capable of turning on and off the Wi-Fi, she probably could just as easily learn to do returns. Or since she was capable of turning on and off Wi-Fi in the first place, she could simply have turned the Wi-Fi back on when you were prompted that the Wi-Fi needed to be on.


It was my mother, and I'm not sure why you're calling it a "rationalization" (or a "scenario"). At the time we did the return, the Kindle device wasn't with her. It wasn't in the house. I helped her at my house do the return. I'm sure you have your own ideas of how my mother ought to be and what she ought to do, but you don't actually get to decide that.

In any case--because of Amazon's policies, she's a happy Kindle user, and she and my dad buy heaps of ebooks (my dad in particular, who finds anything under $20 "cheap" for a book). They're happy, Amazon's happy, I'm happy. I'm sorry you're not, but I'm clearly not going to be able to help with that.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Robert Stanek said:


> As an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.
> 
> Amazon has the means to provide change that would be more consistent and in keeping with fair use.
> 
> To be clear also, Amazon already provides such options -- it just provides them to an elite class of the very few.


So if I bought a Big 5 book, I couldn't read it simultaneously on 6 devices?


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Robert Stanek said:


> As an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.
> 
> Amazon has the means to provide change that would be more consistent and in keeping with fair use.
> 
> To be clear also, Amazon already provides such options -- it just provides them to an elite class of the very few.


Yes, and you also have the option to not sell on Amazon if you don't like their rules. Does it stink that Amazon offers options to larger publishers that it doesn't offer to KDP? Sure. Am I going to get my feathers ruffled over it? Not really. Offering a bigger customer better incentives isn't exactly a new business practice. Personally, I'm very happy with Amazon. They are, IMHO, easily the most indie-friendly large market out there. Should that change in the future, perhaps I shall reconsider, but the option is always there for me.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert Stanek said:


> As an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.
> 
> Amazon has the means to provide change that would be more consistent and in keeping with fair use.
> 
> To be clear also, Amazon already provides such options -- it just provides them to an elite class of the very few.


Absolutely agree with all of the above--this is a discussion forum after all, and I thought we WERE discussing the policies? Not agreeing doesn't mean we aren't discussing. I was just pointing out that you have the absolute right, as an author, to not allow access to your works to a distributor if you think they are not distributing them appropriately. Restricting access to a product is a time-honored way of protest. 

I would question the comment you made earlier, however:



Robert Stanek said:


> Being reader-centric is one thing; allowing unfair use of works is another; and hiding behind the guise of being reader-centric to allow unreasonable use yet another.


This^ seems to imply that Amazon's goal is to allow unreasonable use. Again, I disagree, I think their goal is to be reader-centric.



Robert Stanek said:


> But you left out the easiest part of my response:
> 
> Or since she was capable of turning on and off Wi-Fi in the first place, she could simply have turned the Wi-Fi back on when you were prompted that the Wi-Fi needed to be on.


Again, seriously, you don't know my husband. I might be able to talk him through that long distance. He has problems with anything with buttons, including shirts. Bless his heart.



Betsy


----------



## Nihilist (Aug 9, 2013)

Wait, wait, wait. OP, are you THE Robert Stanek?


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Yes, and you also have the option to not sell on Amazon if you don't like their rules. Does it stink that Amazon offers options to larger publishers that it doesn't offer to KDP? Sure. Am I going to get my feathers ruffled over it? Not really. Offering a bigger customer better incentives isn't exactly a new business practice. Personally, I'm very happy with Amazon. They are, IMHO, easily the most indie-friendly large market out there. Should that change in the future, perhaps I shall reconsider, but the option is always there for me.


Would you tell something similar to workers on strike because they don't get health benefits from their employer? Easy enough to tell someone to quit their job and find another. Hard in actual practice.

As I said before, as an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Absolutely agree with all of the above--this is a discussion forum after all, and I thought we WERE discussing the policies? Not agreeing doesn't mean we aren't discussing.


Exactly -- and it's a pretty good discussion I think.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> *****!!
> 
> We were going to send out a search party for you....haven't seen you recently. We were just discussing it in the smoke-filled Admin caves. (Not as relates to this thread, just in general. )
> 
> Betsy


I guess going two weeks without a complaint about one of my posts sent off alarms! 

Just been very busy with work, writing, and family drama.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Robert Stanek said:


> Would you tell something similar to workers on strike because they don't get health benefits from their employer? Easy enough to tell someone to quit their job and find another. Hard in actual practice.


That's a bit of an apples and oranges argument against this. To be fair, though, in some circumstances I would. I've been there and have survived it.



Robert Stanek said:


> As I said before, as an author and the creator of the works, I absolutely have the right to question fair use and the absolute right to discuss policies that I do not consider fair use.


Nobody is saying you don't. However, there is the reality that in order to do business in certain ways and/or markets, you have to accept the terms of others. I've dealt with Amazon outside of being an author. They are very much an online version of Walmart in that they really don't negotiate. It's their terms or the highway unless you bring some serious muscle to the table. I once represented a billion dollar manufacturer at the table with them. My boss's attitude was "We're XXXXX, they need us." Guess what, they didn't. In the end it was their way.

I'm not saying you can't question. But you're not selling on your own website. You're selling on theirs.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Monique said:


> So if I bought a Big 5 book, I couldn't read it simultaneously on 6 devices?


Not necessarily. The major publishers have individually negotiated contracts, rather than the blanket contracts everyone else has. Those individually negotiated contracts govern the way works can and cannot be used and also can be tailored per author, per imprint, etc.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

> And you know, if someone reads one of my books and dislikes it so much then want their .99 or 4.99 back, fine. It's not worth stressing over. I get a few returns, but not that many as a percentage. I want the people who buy my books to be people who read them and enjoyed them and felt good about paying what I charged. That's my audience.


 If I couldn't stand your book that much, I want the Amazon verified purchase on the review.

Oh and Mr. Stanek,
I will make you a promise right now. You will never have to worry about a return from me, or me letting several others read your book free. You are welcome.
All I mean by this is that you do not write the type of books that I care to read. Therefore no worries from me. Please do not take this any other way.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Large publishers with individually negotiated contracts with Amazon can control this setting, but individuals, small publishers and anyone else unable to get a directly negotiated contract (pretty much everyone other than the major publishers) have no control over this setting.


If this is true, none of the large publishers are restricting it. I have three kindles (a regular Kindle and two Fires) and I purchase a lot of trade books. None of them are restricted to only one device. I can read them on any of my Kindles or Mike's phone via the Kindle App or either of our computers via the Kindle app.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> That's a bit of an apples and oranges argument against this. To be fair, though, in some circumstances I would. I've been there and have survived it.
> 
> Nobody is saying you don't. However, there is the reality that in order to do business in certain ways and/or markets, you have to accept the terms of others. I've dealt with Amazon outside of being an author. They are very much an online version of Walmart in that they really don't negotiate. It's their terms or the highway unless you bring some serious muscle to the table. I once represented a billion dollar manufacturer at the table with them. My boss's attitude was "We're XXXXX, they need us." Guess what, they didn't. In the end it was their way.
> 
> I'm not saying you can't question. But you're not selling on your own website. You're selling on theirs.


Except that Amazon makes exceptions to the blanket rules every single day.


----------



## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

In my "thank you for reading" section I encourage people to share my book with a friend or family member. The reality is that I've been turned on to many authors after someone shared a book with me and went on to buy other books by those authors. Similarly, I've shared books with my sisters (who are *voracious* readers) and they've gone on to purchase the entire backlist of those authors.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Robert Stanek said:


> Except that Amazon makes exceptions to the blanket rules every single day.


So then try. Call them up, get your lawyers and their lawyers talking. Tell them you bring $XXX to the table and want to see if you can cut your own deal. Worst case scenario: they say no.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If this is true, none of the large publishers are restricting it. I have three kindles (a regular Kindle and two Fires) and I purchase a lot of trade books. None of them are restricted to only one device. I can read them on any of my Kindles or Mike's phone via the Kindle App or either of our computers via the Kindle app.


The restrictions usually relate to unlimited use versus limited use, or a specific preset limit, such as 6 devices simultaneously.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Well, there are solutions that would prevent a person from turning off their Wi-Fi and then fake returning an item. As an example, Amazon could simply reply with an automated message, that says turn-on the Wi-Fi on your device to complete the return.


The issue isn't the Wi-Fi being shut off. Amazon will simply pull the book the next time the Wi-Fi IS turned on. A person who is actually trying to "fake" a return will just sideload the book to their hard drive and then return it. Then they can just move it back to their device. Methinks you underestimate the ability of the genuine crooks and would make honest people suffer in the process.

I am one of the most vocal anti-pirate people on this site. But I will not adopt any policy that treats my legitimate readers like criminals in an empty effort to attack real pirates. Your restrictions won't actually DO anything to stop a real pirate and will just annoy genuine customers.

Allow me to share a little small scale insight. A few years ago, Wizards of the Coast discovered a pirated PDF copy of their 4th edition books on a torrent site. The PDF had a watermark that it had been legally purchased through RPGNow. And then the buyer had uploaded it to the torrent site. WoTC went ballistic and, in an epic hissy fit, pulled ALL of their digital products off of RPGNOW and decided to sell them directly through their own site with all sorts of DRM. What should come as NO surprise to anyone that actually pays attention is that after they did this, pirate copies of their books EXPLODED onto torrent sites. Why? First, because they had made it too difficult to buy their digital products. People were used to buying from RPGNOW, and didn't want to have to go through the hassle of buying from WoTC directly, at the same price, but getting less functionality. Second, people resented being treated like criminals because of one bad apple and decided to "get even" with WoTC by just stripping all of the DRM (which is incredibility easy to do if you follow one of the dozens of Youtube videos that offer step by step instructions!) and uploaded to the torrent sites.

Unsurprisingly, the mass pirating stopped when they started to sell on RPGNOW again. Because most people ARE honest, and if you give them easy ways to buy products and don't force burdensome restrictions, they would much rather have a legal copy than an illegal one.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> If I couldn't stand your book that much, I want the Amazon verified purchase on the review.


LOL. Right? I actually did have that on a series once--someone took the first one (which is perma-free), then bought the next two and returned them, and pasted the same review on all three, all with the 'verified purchase' stamp. She hated the series. I mean, she really, _really_ didn't like it. So, OK. Should she be out $6? No, not for me. I'd rather she spent her money on books she liked. I'm sorry she didn't like the ones I published, but there you are, she's not required to. Thing is, we can't go inside her head and know what happened. Maybe she took Book 1 perma-free, saw it was a series, and figured she should buy the next two while she was in the mood or had them in front of her. Then she read one, loathed it, and returned the paid ones. Again--if my book isn't worth $3 to you, then please, return it and have your money back. The kind of readers I want, for anything I write or publish, are ones who consider the price I charge to be a good deal--or at the very least, a fair exchange.

Are there "cheaters" out there? Oh, doubtless. There are also shoplifters and people who break into your home and steal your stuff. But most people don't do that. The majority of Amazon's shoppers, at least as my sales figures show, are happy to pay for their books. People who don't wish to purchase books can use the library or borrow from friends, etc. Books that I'm giving for Christmas this year I notice are all ones I read free first somewhere, from a library or a loan from someone I know.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Interesting. I think some level of DRM can be helpful as a deterrent. Amazon DRM is fairly good, I think, at performing its purpose and you can still use the e-items you've purchased across devices.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Robert--just to clarify something that many new members get confused about.  This subforum is indeed the Writers' Café.  But our overall forum is for Kindle Owners, and the Writers' Café subhead is "Come in, grab a cup of coffee and chat with our authors."  Readers are welcome here.  And, being a discussion forum, they are welcome to express their opinions.  Those opinions, of course, must stay within the bounds of civil discouse.

Folks, I've removed some posts that were off topic and were hovering around the "personal attack" line, threatening to spill over.  And also some posts that responded.  If your post was removed and you have any questions, PM me.

Thanks!

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Robert--just to clarify something that many new members get confused about. This subforum is indeed the Writers' Café. But our overall forum is for Kindle Owners, and the Writers' Café subhead is "Come in, grab a cup of coffee and chat with our authors." Readers are welcome here. And, being a discussion forum, they are welcome to express their opinions. Those opinions, of course, must stay within the bounds of civil discourse.


Thanks, Betsy! This discussion pertains to issues very dear to me as an author and content creator: authors' rights and fair use in the context of a discussion area called Writer's Café. I understand readers and writers participate. Authors' rights and fair use are important subjects and an author should be able to discuss them in such a context.

Great discussion everyone!


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Robert Stanek said:


> For me personally, I think it would far exceed expected fair use of a work if 10 people with 10 devices had 1 account, such that that 1 account allowed a single purchase to be available to all 10 people simultaneously on all 10 devices. You, on other hand, seem to be using the devices for testing and such, which is a different situation.


Robert,

In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.

But there's a couple things where I part company with you, in terms of agreement.

1) Paying a service to send out DMCA Takedown Notices via a monthly fee. Seems to me that unless someone is assured that such a company's reputation is ironclad (say, Webroot or McAfee or Vipre or someone like that, adding a specific author-protection service), the risk is far too great that the company saying "pay us a monthly fee to kinda-sorta help you" are the same people who own the pirate sites and are trying to profit off your content to begin with.

2) Your opinion (quoted above) that 10 people on 10 devices on one account might be a personal opinion, but there's way too many X-factors you're not taking into consideration. Like the simple assumption that each device = a separate user.

Using myself as an example, my wife and I buck the general trend in that we have separate Amazon accounts. Part of the reason for this is our very different tastes in books, and also that we met later in life (late 20s for her, late 30s for me), so we both already had Amazon accounts when we got married seven-plus years ago.

But in today's tech-driven day and age, even if we DID share an account, it'd be VERY easy to reach your arbitrary target of "10 devices" being "too much."

For instance, I currently own:

1 Kindle PaperWhite
1 Google Nexus 7 tablet
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Asus laptop (Windows 7)
1 Dell desktop (Windows 7)

That's not counting the fact that I had a K3 before I had my PaperWhite, and had Kindle apps on at least two previous PCs that were either replaced or died. That's 8 devices, easy, five of which I actively use. And yes, I've deleted out-of-use devices in my Amazon account via Manage My Devices, but still... just little ol' me has FIVE active devices that either are Kindles or use Kindle apps.

Additionally, I've been contemplating adding a Chromebook to my lineup to reach six active devices all by myself. And I would be deeply ticked off if I had to pay again for a book I've already purchased.

And because I understand this, I never limit devices per purchase when I publish via KDP.

None of these include my wife's devices. Like me, she has several:

1 K3 Kindle reader
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Acer Android tablet
1 Desktop PC (Win7)
1 Old laptop PC (Win 7)
1 iPod Touch (iOS)

So she has six active devices all by herself (and hopes to upgrade her Kindle to a PW2 soon)

And we don't even have kids yet.

Two people... 11 active devices that could become 12 if I buy a Chromebook. (Because I plan to keep my old laptop until it's completely broken, not just a bit slower than it used to be.)

So, yeah... all I can say is... 10 or more devices doesn't always = 10 or more users.

(Aside bit of trivia: Affordable virus protection programs are VERY hard to find, for us, because of the amount of tech we each own. Companies think they're being oh-so-benevolent with "1 year, 3 device" pricing, but that's not always so... Same goes with MS Office. It's to the point where I have Office 2007, while my wife uses Office 2010, because we would need FOUR licenses to just own one version or copy, and Home and Student only offers three licenses per purchase.)

So, yeah... be careful with those assumptions on devices. It's pretty easy to reach 4-6 actively-used devices per user.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Thanks, Betsy! This discussion pertains to issues very dear to me as an author and content creator: authors' rights and fair use in the context of a discussion area called Writer's Café. I understand readers and writers participate. Authors' rights and fair use are important subjects and an author should be able to discuss them in such a context.
> 
> Great discussion everyone!


I think part of the pushback you are getting is that your initial post seems to come from a position that most readers are crooks looking for ways to rip-off authors. Piracy IS a problem, but I think you are actually focused on the wrong thing. My return rate on Amazon across ALL titles is less than 1%. Even if that entire 1% is comprised of people faking returns, I consider that the cost of doing business to keep the other 99% of my readers happy. If you are seeing a huge number of returns in relation to sales, I suspect there is another problem than Amazon's return policy. It is easy to assume mass returns are the result of fraud, because it allows us to blame phantoms. But what I have seen from others reporting unusually high returns generally boils down to:

Bad formatting: This happens a lot particularly with trade authors who have recently got their rights back and use some software to convert their print books to epub and _don't edit the source files._ You end up with jumbled messes in the conversions, and readers won't suffer it. A poorly formatted book will be returned by the truckloads. This can be prevented simply by making sure the final files are correct. But too many authors don't.

bad marketing: If someone thinks they are getting a full length story and it turns out to be a three chapter excerpt or a short story with a long excerpt of a novel attached, they get mad. If they think they are getting a sweet romance and it is actually an erotica, they will get mad. If they think they are getting a paranormal YA and it turns out to be a horror novel, they will get mad. Again, people mis-representing their work to capitalize on "hot" genres and engaging in bait and switch will often see unusually high returns. Again, this is preventable by making sure you are marketing your book correctly and hitting the right target demographics for your book instead of the perceived hottest demographics.

Poorly timed Select promotions: So you scheduled your Select Free Days for the 10th to the 15th, but forgot to announce it until the last minute and the freebie sites didn't pick it up until the last day? It isn't unusual for this to result in a lot of returns because people click the link thinking the book is free, and then discover later they were charged. Or on those occasions when Amazon screws up your free days and doesn't start them on time, and people clicking the promo links think they are getting the book for free but it isn't.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Robert,
> 
> In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.
> 
> ...


Craig makes a very good point. I have 5 devices myself. Strictly for my own personal use.
Oh and Craig, you are not the only husband/wife set with separate accounts. We do too. I actually read one book across 3 devices. My regular kindle for outside/fire for inside/K4PC for the pictures.
I have several that I am reading on both the fire and the kindle.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Craig makes a very good point. I have 5 devices myself. Strictly for my own personal use.
> Oh and Craig, you are not the only husband/wife set with separate accounts. We do too. I actually read one book across 3 devices. My regular kindle for outside/fire for inside/K4PC for the pictures.
> I have several that I am reading on both the fire and the kindle.


I sometimes wish we did...some of the recommendations Amazons sends to me. 

But chalk another up here. In my household:
4 iphones
3 ipads
2 Kindles
1 Kindle Fire
1 Android Tablet
3 Laptops
1 Desktop

(I *think* Jeez, maybe I need a technology intervention.)

Oh and 1 Amazon account to rule them all.


----------



## Sarah Ettritch (Jan 5, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> As I've mentioned, fake returns involve a person buying e-items, turning off the Wi-Fi on their device or devices, and then returning those items. Because they've purposely turned off the Wi-Fi, the e-items they returned remain available. As a simple solution, Amazon could send an automated message/alert stating to complete the return, turn on the Wi-Fi on the device or devices.


In addition to what everyone else has already said, you're forgetting the "Transfer via USB" method. When I first got my Kindle, I didn't have Wi-Fi, so whenever I bought a book, I'd download it to my computer, connect the Kindle via USB, and move the file to the Kindle. I have Wi-Fi now, but I still use this method. In fact, since receiving the Kindle from Amazon, I've never turned on Wi-Fi. I prefer that Amazon not know what's on my Kindle, what I'm reading, and how far I got into a book. All Amazon ever knows is that I bought a book and downloaded it.

I do agree that there are some common sense methods Amazon could implement. For example, if someone buys a book from an author, returns the book, then buys another book from the same author, then returns it, etc., that's something Amazon could easily detect and purchases of books from the same author could be suspended for a time. I'm sure there are other suspicious behaviours that Amazon could catch and handle.


----------



## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

Craig's point about devices is spot on. My 'zon account is activated for an old kindle, an old phone and and and an old laptop. I'm removing them now, but without this thread I'd never have even looked.

I think other content providers have dealt with this reasonable well - Sony with the PSN, or Netflix with tiered subs for multiple concurrent devices. They set a limit, and ask the end user to manage active devices if they want to download new stuff once they've hit the concurrency limits. I'm all for people reading stuff they bought in any way they want to. I don't use DRM for that reason. For DRM to work, it needs to be cultural rather than technological. We simply don't have strong enough DRM to stop a determined pirate. Someone needs to draw a line between what is fair to the readers, and what is fair to authors... but that line is a blurry one.

With books, readers could lend them, sell them, and give them away. With eBooks, this isn't true. They can create DRM-locked copies in specific circumstances, but it comes down to the nature of an eBook. We sell licences, not products. Some of the issues with that are pretty obvious - divisibility for one. If a couple breaks up, they can divvy up the books easily enough but only one gets the Amazon account. I personally don't mind if they both keep a copy if they buy one of my books, but the kindle licence doesn't cover that.

Inheritance is another. These are personal licences. We're all amassing digital portfolios, and very few countries have laws to deal with that.

We're in a 'make it up as you go along' system, and the people making it up are those at Amazon. Their interests in keeping customers happy, and our interests in maximising our income, don't always converge. As long as that remains the case, authors are going to have to put up with a certain level of piracy and hope that it doesn't dent the bottom line too much. By all means, play whack-a-mole with the pirate sites if it makes you feel better, but lots of these guys are based abroad, use peer-to-peer or operate on darknet sites. It's a cost benefit thing, and with huge sales it becomes much more viable to spend the time or to hire someone... but for most of us, we're best off leaving it well alone, adding a tip jar to an author website for any repentant pirates, and hoping that the extra visibility helps.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Robert,
> 
> In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.
> 
> ...


Excellent point. I was not recommending such services per se, rather discussing such as a possible tool in the author's toolkit and letting others know my experiences with a specific service. As I mentioned, it is really up to each author to decide what is best for them regarding authors' rights and piracy.

Also, I mentioned that some piracy is part and parcel with being an author. For me personally, from time to time, I do need to track whether ongoing piracy is excessive.



CraigInTwinCities said:


> 2) Your opinion (quoted above) that 10 people on 10 devices on one account might be a personal opinion, but there's way too many X-factors you're not taking into consideration. Like the simple assumption that each device = a separate user.
> 
> Using myself as an example, my wife and I buck the general trend in that we have separate Amazon accounts. Part of the reason for this is our very different tastes in books, and also that we met later in life (late 20s for her, late 30s for me), so we both already had Amazon accounts when we got married seven-plus years ago.
> 
> But in today's tech-driven day and age, even if we DID share an account, it'd be VERY easy to reach your arbitrary target of "10 devices" being "too much."


Excellent points about your usage and number of devices. My thoughts really are specific to the scenarios I mentioned, and as an example: 10 devices, 10 users on 1 account all simultaneously having access to the same 1 purchase. To me, that is unfair use, if I have not expressly allowed it.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think part of the pushback you are getting is that your initial post seems to come from a position that most readers are crooks looking for ways to rip-off authors. Piracy IS a problem, but I think you are actually focused on the wrong thing. My return rate on Amazon across ALL titles is less than 1%. Even if that entire 1% is comprised of people faking returns, I consider that the cost of doing business to keep the other 99% of my readers happy. If you are seeing a huge number of returns in relation to sales, I suspect there is another problem than Amazon's return policy. It is easy to assume mass returns are the result of fraud, because it allows us to blame phantoms. But what I have seen from others reporting unusually high returns generally boils down to:


Thanks!! I don't focus on readers in the original post, rather on the issues of authors' rights, piracy and fair use, along with providing solutions such as DMCA notices and services available. The fact is I'm a reader, from a family of readers, and with a family of readers.

I respect fair use so much that we all make our own separate purchases on our own separate devices. In fact, when I read on my iPad, I buy on my iPad and if I read the same book on another device, I buy on that device. That's my personal choice. For me, personally, that is the spirit of fair use and is simply what's right.

Regarding the simple solutions discussed, I do hope these are things Amazon looks at. I believe simple protections like these should be implemented. Just as anyone who creates or builds or does anything expects simple, basic rules and protections, authors should expect these very basic protections as well and I'd hope that readers would want these protections for authors as well.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Excellent points about your usage and number of devices. My thoughts really are specific to the scenarios I mentioned, and as an example: 10 devices, 10 users on 1 account all simultaneously having access to the same 1 purchase. To me, that is unfair use, if I have not expressly allowed it.


Now I will agree that if someone has stripped your book and put it on all their friends kindles, ipads etc then yes that is unfair use. 
I will ask you one little question. Did you or did you not agree to Amazon's terms when you signed with them? If you agreed to their TOS then yes you have expressly allowed me to put your book on as many devices as allowed.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

90daysnovel said:


> Craig's point about devices is spot on. My 'zon account is activated for an old kindle, an old phone and and and an old laptop. I'm removing them now, but without this thread I'd never have even looked.
> 
> I think other content providers have dealt with this reasonable well - Sony with the PSN, or Netflix with tiered subs for multiple concurrent devices. They set a limit, and ask the end user to manage active devices if they want to download new stuff once they've hit the concurrency limits. I'm all for people reading stuff they bought in any way they want to. I don't use DRM for that reason. For DRM to work, it needs to be cultural rather than technological. We simply don't have strong enough DRM to stop a determined pirate. Someone needs to draw a line between what is fair to the readers, and what is fair to authors... but that line is a blurry one.
> 
> ...


Excellent points. The package I have on Netflix limits us to 3 devices currently and that absolutely makes sense. Even though all the members of my family often would like to watch Netflix at the same time, we can't and that's understandable at $9.99 a month or whatever. Is it really fair use for 10 people with 10 devices on 1 account to share a $2.99 ebook? IMHO, no.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Now I will agree that if someone has stripped your book and put it on all their friends kindles, ipads etc then yes that is unfair use.
> I will ask you one little question. Did you or did you not agree to Amazon's terms when you signed with them? If you agreed to their TOS then yes you have expressly allowed me to put your book on as many devices as allowed.


Thanks for following up! I haven't expressly agreed, but my publishers may have, though they likely did not have a choice. Again, Amazon already allows exceptions to these rules, they are just restricted to an elite class.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

Sarah Ettritch said:


> In addition to what everyone else has already said, you're forgetting the "Transfer via USB" method. When I first got my Kindle, I didn't have Wi-Fi, so whenever I bought a book, I'd download it to my computer, connect the Kindle via USB, and move the file to the Kindle. I have Wi-Fi now, but I still use this method. In fact, since receiving the Kindle from Amazon, I've never turned on Wi-Fi. I prefer that Amazon not know what's on my Kindle, what I'm reading, and how far I got into a book. All Amazon ever knows is that I bought a book and downloaded it.
> 
> I do agree that there are some common sense methods Amazon could implement. For example, if someone buys a book from an author, returns the book, then buys another book from the same author, then returns it, etc., that's something Amazon could easily detect and purchases of books from the same author could be suspended for a time. I'm sure there are other suspicious behaviours that Amazon could catch and handle.


Amazon absolutely knows what's on which of your Amazon devices. Amazon also absolutely knows how far you are in any book on your devices, how many times you've read them, etc. -- all this information is synced periodically back to Amazon whenever you use your devices and accessible to Amazon tech services.

Good points about returns like that!


----------



## Sarah Ettritch (Jan 5, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> Amazon absolutely knows what's on which of your Amazon devices. Amazon also absolutely knows how far you are in any book on your devices, how many times you've read them, etc. -- all this information is synced periodically back to Amazon whenever you use your devices and accessible to Amazon tech services.


But I never synch my device by connecting to Amazon, so in my case, Amazon has no information about what's on my Kindle, etc. My Kindle's Wi-Fi is always OFF.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Thanks for following up! I haven't expressly agreed, but my publishers may have, though they likely did not have a choice. Again, Amazon already allows exceptions to these rules, they are just restricted to an elite class.


I owe you an apology. I guess my question to you should have been did a person/company acting on your behalf agree to Amazon's terms. If so, then that is a different kettle of fish. I thought you had actually read and signed the contract with A. I did not realize that you had given some of the control of your books over to others.

Now I do not know for sure because I don't work for Amazon but I would bet that all contracts at Amazon are primarily to benefit Amazon, second benefit is to the customer and lastly to the vendors (big and small). So yes you are probably right on the exceptions.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Robert Stanek said:


> Is it really fair use for 10 people with 10 devices on 1 account to share a $2.99 ebook? IMHO, no.


My viewpoint differs slightly.

Are the 10 people in question family members? If so, I'd be fine with that.

If they were 10 guys who are on the same college dorm floor? Probably not.


----------



## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Robert Stanek said:


> Interesting. I think some level of DRM can be helpful as a deterrent. Amazon DRM is fairly good, I think, at performing its purpose and you can still use the e-items you've purchased across devices.


I disagree, and I'm coming from the video game / tech industry before I decided to write full-time.

DRM is a terrible answer. The only thing DRM does is limit the legitimate user. Pirates and unscrupulous users have already cracked/defeated any DRM that will ever be implemented. The sooner everyone on Earth realizes this (do yourselves a favor and look back as far as you can in history at attempts to limit the copying of anything, and see how often it has worked...exactly. Never.), the sooner we can move on to the next argument that someone will bring up where they think their livelihood is being trampled on by evil pirate-customers.

I've read this whole thread, and I'm not sure why anyone would want to place a restriction on how many persons can read the books after it has been purchased legitimately. I've loaned out The Forever War by Joe Haldeman at least 50+ times over the last twenty years. If I wrote a book that good that someone would annoy others to read it and loan it out that much, I'd be a very happy person.

Maybe I've spent the last two decades dealing with piracy in one form or another, from both sides, and so my viewpoint is different. I have to laugh at some of the threads/posts here and at other forums because of how pirates are viewed or imagined.

But 10 people sharing an Amazon account and all reading a $2.99 book? Why wouldn't I be fine with that? Even if they were 10 college kids on different dorm floors but had all banded together to have a single Amazon account...good for them. Share the book amongst yourselves. Share it with the entire campus for all I care. That $2.99 book is going to lead to some sales if that many people are interested in reading it.

I also suppose I see it differently because I feel like the day I start squinting down at the ledger sheet to count my pennies is the day I'll stop writing. It's great to make a living at it, and it's greater (I assume) to have made such a living that money is no longer a real worry. I'll also assume that when one author sells a million copies of anything, that author is now in the 'money is not really a problem' category (foolish authors and foolish pro athletes that can't keep a handle on their finances get no sympathy from me).

As for the DMCA notices...they only 'work' in the USA. The DMCA notice has zero jurisdiction outside of America's borders. Like I've said a million times, 99% or more of all 'pirate' sites reside outside of American jurisdiction. And all they really do is annoy whoever you sent them to, which generally makes them want to pirate more of your stuff (to the point they'll bundle EVERYTHING you have ever produced into a single collection and then upload it / torrent it / whatever it). If you are paying for someone to send them out, you are wasting money that could be spent on much more proactive or useful things. Do DMCA notices ever work? The only time they work is when an ISP suspends or shuts down one of their customers because of it. How often does this happen? Almost never. How often are DMCA notices bogus and are sent out in bulk by services such as the one you describe? So often that ISPs typically ignore them unless it is from the MPAA or RIAA, and even then, companies like Verizon tend to ignore them. Might as well throw a glass of water on a 5-alarm blaze (and piss off the (potential) customer in the meantime).

Anecdote: I received a DMCA notice once about the movie "The Hangover." I called the cable company and told them to stop wasting my time with their nonsense, and if I ever received another one, I'd close my account and move to Century Link (DSL). The rep apologized and said it was automated, but they'd make sure it didn't happen again. They never even questioned whether or not I'd downloaded the movie. I've never received another one. Our roommate's brother now works for the cable company, and he's confirmed the futility of DMCA notices. You might scare one or two old ladies that have their pot-smoking grandson living in the basement racking up 30TB of pirated downloads, but you aren't going to scare anyone that has a brain or has a friend/relative that is tech savvy.

Worse, you'll send them off to get new tools like PeerBlock, white/blacklists, filters, or they'll just move to a different format. Oh, you don't like Napster? Fine, we'll use WinMX. WinMX getting too hot? No problem. There's BearShare and Kazaa. Oh, they getting sued/shut down too? Fine, we'll go back to Usenet. Or BitTorrent. Or FTP. Or VPN. Or private torrent sites. Or private download sites. Or IRC. Or P2P-direct software. Or we'll just mail the stuff to each other via the good ol' USPS. Heck, even though MegaUpload got shut down, there's at least 50+ other sites that do the exact same thing. Or there's private websites that only give out the direct links to friends.

As a side note, you'll be happy to note that I think this is the last time I'll try to explain this to anyone. I'm sure there are a good number of forum users that have had to skip entire posts by me because I always say the same thing when it comes to piracy (i.e. you cannot win against pirates, and trying to treat legitimate, paying customers like pirates is the worst kind of bad juju).



> Amazon absolutely knows what's on which of your Amazon devices. Amazon also absolutely knows how far you are in any book on your devices, how many times you've read them, etc. -- all this information is synced periodically back to Amazon whenever you use your devices and accessible to Amazon tech services.


They have no clue what is on two of my devices, since the devices have only ever had items transferred via USB. They do not sync. They never will sync.

Customer-centric businesses care more about the customer than they do the producer of goods. This is a good thing, even if you believe it is bad for you (or for everyone).


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Travis,

Your post is basically one that employs a fear/intimidation strategy of discouragement. I say that because the essence of your argument is, "Pirates are too numerous and too powerful to ever defeat... Give up."

That sort of argument has existed for a long time, been applied to many other illegal endeavors, and has exactly zero bearing on whether something is legal and/or enforceable.

The trouble is: you're not exactly correct. Granted, enforcement of law against average citizens is rare and often on the level of "make an example of one random person to scare/intimidate everyone else," but woe to the person selected.

I present the case of Jammie Thomas-Rassett:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_v._Thomas

No matter how many appeals have been filed, (it's been before courts of law six times, so five appeals so far, and may end up before the U.S. Supreme Court before all is said and done), the courts have ALL levied judgments against her, even though at the time of the incident, it appears she was a single mom whose son was the actual responsible party.

While the fight now seems to be over the amount of damages, the 24 songs she was sued over (which would have cost her a mere $24 in iTunes) has run no lower than $2,250 per song, and as high as $80,000 per song.

The music industry has made her a martyr in their fight against music piracy, destroying her life financially, even if the only reason is she was randomly selected to be "made an example of."

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, is all I'm saying. Granted, one might get blessed and never be randomly selected for such legal terrorism... but I know of no one who'd want to be Jammie Thomas-Rassett, either.

So, the law IS on the side of rights-holders. One can talk about random enforcement and "for every Jammie Thomas-Rassett, there are millions who never even get an email (like you did)," but that doesn't make everything "hopeless and meaningless" when it comes to where the law stands, either.

I mean, who wants to gather off pirate sites a bunch of books that range from $0.99 to $2.99, when the result could be a Jammie Thomas-Rassett-like nightmare scenario? Paying reasonable eBook prices is a no-brainer on the same level as paying an iTunes or Google Music or whatever sort of fee.

And yeah, the legal argument is also a "fear and intimidation" argument, just like the case you laid out, clearly. Both sides try to scare the other into giving up. That part will never be solved.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

90daysnovel said:


> I think other content providers have dealt with this reasonable well - Sony with the PSN, or Netflix with tiered subs for multiple concurrent devices. They set a limit, and ask the end user to manage active devices if they want to download new stuff once they've hit the concurrency limits.


Amazon actually has the same policy -- in most cases the max is set at six concurrent devices. After that you have to remove it from a device to add it to a seventh device.

Betsy


----------



## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Robert Stanek said:


> Amazon absolutely knows what's on which of your Amazon devices. Amazon also absolutely knows how far you are in any book on your devices, how many times you've read them, etc. -- all this information is synced periodically back to Amazon whenever you use your devices and accessible to Amazon tech services.
> 
> Good points about returns like that!


Not so. Many people (almost certainly those who will deliberately pirate books) will not use WiFi. I don't, not because I pirate, but because I use Calibre and only download new purchases to a Kindle app on one of my computers. I see no point in having WiFi turned on and reducing battery life unnecessarily. I own at least one of each device/model made by all manufacturers, and with the Kindles and Kindle apps alone I exceed a dozen devices - all of them have the same content. Amazon has no clue as to how many devices I have with the same purchases.

My wife has her own account (she has some tastes that I don't) but I will side load anything from my account that interests her. Our daughters also like some of the same authors and I will load any books of interest onto their devices. It does not concern me how many read a particular book (we have seven daughters and their partners) or whether they take advantage of the digital form of books read them simultaneously. It would be possible that up to twenty people could be reading the same purchase on different devices on the same day, though I doubt that will happen often. It is little different to the days when a paper book would be bought and passed around the family - just simpler and faster. The earnings of any author from whom I have purchased books from will not vary whether their book is read simultaneously or contiguously by members of my family. I do not lend books - eBook or paper - outside my family.

Piracy will never be controlled, and suggestions regarding DRM will only exacerbate the problem, not alleviate it. DRM serves only to annoy honest people and challenge pirates.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't use DRM. Don't believe in it.

I do send out DMCA Takedown Notices when I notice something. They tend to work. I don't obsess over it, but if I know something's going on, I do take reasonable steps.

I know nothing will shut down piracy altogether. If anything was gonna stop it, EVERY pirate site would have disappeared shortly after the Jammie Thomas case first happened.

I have no doubt piracy will continue; but I'll oppose it when I notice my stuff is in the mix, and no, I don't see it as being the same as making your book "perma-free" on Amazon.

The idea, though, for me as an indie author is that I'll try to minimize the appeal of piracy by offering my work for prices that are reasonable compared to trad-pubs.

So that's my personal mix of decisions and convictions. Those will vary for others. That's fine. We're all individuals, doing what we personally think is right for ourselves. Different people can come to different conclusions, convictions, and decisions in terms of what works for them. That's life.


----------



## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm with Robert 100% on this. That's pretty much all I'm gonna say about it because for some reason, this forum thinks piracy is no big deal. But whatever to them. I think Pirates are scum and I use DRM and Muso. People read the books once. Twice, maybe, if they are big time fans, three times on three devices? _Right_.

Thanks for the great thread, Robert. Keep on it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 6, 2013)

JanneCO said:


> I'm with Robert 100% on this. That's pretty much all I'm gonna say about it because for some reason, this forum thinks piracy is no big deal.


I'm pretty sure I NEVER said it wasn't a big deal. I said I'm not about to treat my honest customers like criminals. Shoplifting is a big deal, but the last time I checked the police didn't pat down every person leaving Walmart looking for stolen goods simply because some people steal. Drunk driving is a big deal, but the last time I checked I don't have to take a breathalyzer test every time I leave my house before driving to work simply because some people drive drunk. I don't abide by punishing everyone simply because some people are scum.

I much prefer to simply bring the hammer down on the scum.

Robert's initial post assumes two things:

1. The majority of readers are scum (i.e. actively looking for ways to cheat)
2. Amazon is run by idiots that don't do anything about fraud

Well, I don't believe the majority of readers are scum. My returns are less than 1%. The vast majority of people who buy my books keep them. They don't read and return them. And if one or two people a month think they are 'getting over' by reading and returning my book, what sense does it make to punish all of the other people who are being honest?

I also don't believe Amazon is stupid. Amazon does what is in Amazon's best interest. Losing money on fraud is not in Amazon's best interest. Remember, even if Amazon refunds the book and saps the money out of your account, they still have costs associated with that return. So to assume that Amazon does nothing about repeat offenders assumes Amazon is stupid. There is zero reason to think Amazon allows serial returners to run unchecked. Just because Amazon doesn't explicitly tell us something doesn't mean stuff isn't being done. Ye gods know Amazon rarely tells us ANYTHING going on behind the scenes. 

The other thing is that there are two types of piracy. There are the "true" pirates (the guys who make it a point to pirate material either for some deluded philosophical point or for outright theft) and "soft" piracy (the people who let their friends "borrow" an ebook or who stumble across pirated material while looking for what they want to buy. There is NO amount of DRM that will stop a dedicated pirate. None. Such DRM does not exist. It can all be stripped by a pirate committed to doing so. And the more restrictions and DRM you place on a product, the more you actually INCREASE soft piracy because you push people to look for material in formats that let them do what they want to do.

For example, Disturbed often has hidden tracks on their albums, and the tracks will vary based on region. I really wanted a specific track, because I heard the song on Youtube and HAD TO HAVE IT. But it wasn't available on the U.S. version of the album. It was on the German version, but I couldn't by the German version because at the time regional restrictions prevented me from being able to legally obtain that version in the U.S. After several weeks of digging, I finally found a copy on eBay. I got my legal copy. But I only kept at it that long because I am committed to respecting copyright. _The average person isn't_. The average person, upon hitting the first wall, would have just downloaded the first available copy they could find...which would have been from a pirate site.

This is what DRM does. It pushes otherwise honest people into the shadowy world of piracy. The truth is most people are still surprisingly naive about the internet and think if it is on a site it must be legal. Most people do not understand the nuances of international copyright law. (Heck, most WRITERS don't for that matter!). If I can't get what I want at point A, I just go to point B. And if point B is a pirate site, I might not even realize it is illegal. Many of these look like legitimate sites.

The best way to combat soft piracy is to offer products at a fair price in as many formats as possible with the fewest restrictions on use. Because most people are inherently honest and would prefer to have a "real" copy of something over a fake one.

We can also educate our readers. This discussion about people returning books after reading them, for example, has been going on for a while. A bit ago in another forum I frequent (for bargain shoppers where people share saving ideas, discount codes they come across for various stores or links to online coupons) someone had actually suggested that a way to save money on books was to read them and then return them. I pointed out, nicely (I know, people may be shocked that I do anything nicely), that when you do that, you aren't "getting over" on Amazon because Amazon just sucks the money out of the author's account. The person who suggested it didn't actually know that. People still think digital content works like physical content and that the retailers pay us up front. She was mortified (and PM'd me later to let me know she had repurchased the books she returned because she felt awful about it).

But this is a woman who was "pirating" and didn't really understand that was what she was doing. We can argue that she should have known what she was doing was wrong. But educating her was more helpful than all the DRM in the world.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

JanneCO said:


> I'm with Robert 100% on this. That's pretty much all I'm gonna say about it because for some reason, this forum thinks piracy is no big deal. But whatever to them. I think Pirates are scum and I use DRM and Muso. People read the books once. Twice, maybe, if they are big time fans, three times on three devices? _Right_.
> 
> Thanks for the great thread, Robert. Keep on it.


I do believe I said I read across three devices not read it three times. I put it on my kindle touch, my kindle fire and my kindle for pc. I read part of it inside on the fire, then had to take the dog out so synced it on my touch, when I went back in, I resynced on my fire. And because the pictures were all older, they were hard to see on the fire and the touch so looked at all of them on the k4pc.

Now as far as re-reading books goes I have read the original Cheaper by the Dozen and also Belles on their Toes at least 6 times over the years. I read Autopsy by Michael Baden at least 4 times. 
So yes some people do read books more than twice.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm pretty sure I NEVER said it wasn't a big deal....


Awesomely said, Julie.

I will add one additional point to this, those who sample via pirate sites and then go on to buy afterwards / become loyal customers. It happens. I've been contacted by people who've gone down this route.

There is no blanket statement you can put out that covers all downloaders.

Sure some are in it for the free stuff. It stinks, but these people weren't going to purchase anyway so I won't lose sleep over them.

Some do as you say, Julie, resort to pirate sites because they simple can't get something easily in a legal format. (Likewise, I've had a few readers in countries where I'm not sold contact me via this way. All that tells me is to stop underestimating which markets to be in and get off my butt to ensure as wide of a distro as possible)

etc etc.

The reality for me is the only ones I'm about to condemn are the ones profiting off of me / selling goods that aren't theirs to sell. As far as I'm concerned they're the true problem.

The rest is annoying at worst, harmless for the most part, and can even be helpful at times.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Now as far as re-reading books goes I have read the original Cheaper by the Dozen and also Belles on their Toes at least 6 times over the years. I read Autopsy by Michael Baden at least 4 times.
> So yes some people do read books more than twice.


I re-read Stephen King's IT at least once a year. Getting to the point where my paperback copy rains confetti when I open it up.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JanneCO said:


> I'm with Robert 100% on this. That's pretty much all I'm gonna say about it because for some reason, this forum thinks piracy is no big deal. But whatever to them. I think Pirates are scum and I use DRM and Muso. People read the books once. Twice, maybe, if they are big time fans, three times on three devices? _Right_.
> 
> Thanks for the great thread, Robert. Keep on it.


Sorry, I don't see "the forum" thinking piracy is no big deal. I see some members who have posted thinking it is quite a big deal, including the OP, and others who have posted thinking it is not.

JanneCo, sorry you don't think anyone would be a big enough fan or your works to read them three or more times.  I read many of my favorite authors' books multiple times. Some of them more than three times, even more than five times, on more than three devices, because I pick up whichever of my 8+ devices is handy and charged. I suppose it could look like three people are reading them at the same time as I switch between devices within the same reading. I've picked up works by my favorite authors that I already have in paper so that I can have them with me on my Kindles. Some of them are downloaded to each of the Kindles I currently have in my possession. We have members who read certain works every year. It's not that unusual.

I have do not pirate (or bootleg as many call it) software, music, books or videos. Never have. Know people who do, unfortunately. But I do not see Amazon's policy of allowing multiple Kindle users on a single account as the same thing as piracy. Amazon's customer-centric policies are one of the main reasons people buy from Amazon. We hear it again and again and again in the other parts of the forum that many of you don't visit. People buy Kindles and Kindle books because of Amazon's customer service reputation. People are willing to take a risk on authors that they've never heard of because of Amazon's policies. I've no doubt that there are people who abuse Amazon's policy. But to decry the policy because there are some people who abuse it is like saying the Internet should be shut down because some people use it to do bad things. IMO. YMMV. WWJD. 

OK, shoot me down.  'Sokay.

Betsy


----------



## Jennifer R P (Oct 19, 2012)

I have books I've read six, eight, even ten times. Maybe not "on different devices" but the implication that no legitimate reader is going to read a book more than twice bothers me.

I see four kinds of pirates:

1. People who have some kind of moral objection to paying for stuff. I actually once knew somebody who thought copyright should be abolished and who said that copying a book was "as much work" as writing one. I told her to try it then. You'll never make a sale to these people.

2. People who can't afford to buy anything right now. And before you say "But it's a $2.99 ebook" I *personally* know people so poor they scrounge food from dumpsters. If somebody can't afford food, they can't afford an ebook. These people may turn into paying customers when their circumstances improve. Libraries are the only thing that reduces this kind of piracy.

3. People who want a free sample - which is why providing a few things for free is a good idea. I always make sure there's stuff linked to my website readers don't have to pay for. Free samples are good, but in electronic goods, if you don't provide them people will steal them.

4. People who just want a DRM-free copy.

You'll never stop 1. You can't help 2. 3 will go away if you provide them with a legal way to get a sample. 4 will go away if you give them the DRM-free copy.

If there's DRM on anything I wrote, then a publisher or distributor put it there. Some distributors do insist on putting DRM on all books regardless of the wishes of the publisher. I do not like DRM.

As for device limits. Nah. People will get around that in five seconds and you never know when somebody lending a book to their friends might lead to sales.

I'm not saying I don't think piracy is "a big deal". I'm saying more that the current methods for stopping it actually breed more of it. And that I don't worry about it that much.


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Jennifer, I don't have any major disagreements with you, but wanted to counter a couple points, even so.



Jennifer R P said:


> 1. People who have some kind of moral objection to paying for stuff. I actually once knew somebody who thought copyright should be abolished and who said that copying a book was "as much work" as writing one. I told her to try it then. You'll never make a sale to these people.


I know people who think this way, too. That doesn't make their rationalizations correct, though. Often, such folks work a day job, so I simply ask them to start volunteering 100 percent of their time, rather than accepting a paycheck. It's hard to counter that and still sound sane and rational. (Though some don't care about that, either.)



Jennifer R P said:


> 2. People who can't afford to buy anything right now. And before you say "But it's a $2.99 ebook" I *personally* know people so poor they scrounge food from dumpsters. If somebody can't afford food, they can't afford an ebook. These people may turn into paying customers when their circumstances improve. Libraries are the only thing that reduces this kind of piracy.


On one level, yes, I understand this.

On another level, if they can afford to acquire a PC and/or a Kindle in order to read eBooks to begin with, they obviously have SOME resources.

There are plenty of "legit-ly" free eBooks available, so there's not a lot of reason to pirate books that are not. Maybe they don't like the much-higher prices (generally speaking) of trad-pubbed authors... maybe they're currently broke because they're in between paychecks or jobs or whatever... but with all the legit free books out there, again, they could just wait.

Being unable to pay TODAY is not a legit rationale for stealing content TODAY. We don't have to be an "immediate gratification only" society.



Jennifer R P said:


> 3. People who want a free sample - which is why providing a few things for free is a good idea. I always make sure there's stuff linked to my website readers don't have to pay for. Free samples are good, but in electronic goods, if you don't provide them people will steal them.


Again, understandable... but there's a huge difference between a SAMPLE and an entire work.

Even big authors often offer free samples of significant length. I don't think there's many books James Patterson has published in the last three years where he didn't have a "The first 20 chapters FREE" sort of release out there... and his books are "spendy trad-pub" titles.

So I don't agree with this category as a legit excuse for piracy. There's way too many ways out there to get free samples without resorting to piracy.



Jennifer R P said:


> 4. People who just want a DRM-free copy.


Which is part of why I don't use DRM.  You gotta pick your battles, and even I don't like DRM, so I never use it. My feeling is, I'll pay once for something. Not once per device. Just once.

I generally agree with your breakdown on types. I think 3 & 4 are easily satisfied... most every eBook site I know provides a free sample automatically, and some authors provide longer free samples by their own choice, as in the Patterson example.

Category 2 needs to exercise some patience... If they own a Kindle, they have some resources. There's plenty of legit free stuff out there, so buy the free stuff that's out there on Amazon, and hold off on the paid stuff when you have some money. It's a pretty sad excuse for piracy.

And category 1 is completely self-serving, the sort of "committed pirates" who will embrace any sort of rationalization that makes them not feel like the "book thieves" their actions reveal them to be.

I don't think that category is huge, though. I know they're out there. I'm not gonna try to fix 'em. But they should know that if they end up as the next Jammie Thomas-Rasset, it'll be hard for me to weep for them....

I mean, it's one thing to say "I can't afford a book I really want right now."

It's another thing to say, "Authors are *expletives* because they're all rich *expletives* and I have a moral right to own whatever they produce simply because I want it. It's wrong for them to want to be paid for their labor."

Yes, there's no curing that, any more than there's a way to cure those who go on Discovery Channel's pot-growers show and say, "Yeah, what we're doing is against the law, but it's a B.S. law, so yeah, I'm breaking federal law (not Washington state law or Colorado state law) on national television. So what? I dare the feds to arrest me!"

There's no curing that. But it doesn't make the behavior right or legitimate, either.

I mean, what if someone committed a murder and said, "Hey, I have a moral problem with the laws against murder. Some people NEED killing, and all I did was act on that, which is my sincere belief."

Yeah, but that person will still be charged with murder...  I'm far more libertarian-minded than statist, but that doesn't mean we all get to decide for ourselves what's legal and what's not... 

P.S. Someone above stated that people "only" read a book 1-2 times. I'm not at all in favor of the idea that one should limit how many times a book can be READ. That's worse than even the most restrictive DRM stuff out there! If I've paid for a book, and it becomes a favorite book, I should be free to read it as many times as I want... whether someone thinks "people never re-read favorite books" or not!


----------



## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> I do believe I said I read across three devices not read it three times. I put it on my kindle touch, my kindle fire and my kindle for pc. I read part of it inside on the fire, then had to take the dog out so synced it on my touch, when I went back in, I resynced on my fire. And because the pictures were all older, they were hard to see on the fire and the touch so looked at all of them on the k4pc.
> 
> Now as far as re-reading books goes I have read the original Cheaper by the Dozen and also Belles on their Toes at least 6 times over the years. I read Autopsy by Michael Baden at least 4 times.
> So yes some people do read books more than twice.


I never even read your post, so I certainly was not talking about you,. Ditto to Julie.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I do believe I said I read across three devices not read it three times. I put it on my kindle touch, my kindle fire and my kindle for pc. I read part of it inside on the fire, then had to take the dog out so synced it on my touch, when I went back in, I resynced on my fire. And because the pictures were all older, they were hard to see on the fire and the touch so looked at all of them on the k4pc.
> 
> Now as far as re-reading books goes I have read the original Cheaper by the Dozen and also Belles on their Toes at least 6 times over the years. I read Autopsy by Michael Baden at least 4 times.
> So yes some people do read books more than twice.


Cheaper By the Dozen! Belles on Their Toes! Even better than Cheaper by the Dozen? I think so.
Have you read Daddy-Long-Legs and Dear Enemy?
I'll bet I have read each of those books . . . gosh. Lots of times. So many times.

And on my Amazon account, I have my Kindle, my husband's Kindle, and my mother's Kindle. Yep, three devices. I called Amazon to make sure it was OK to share the books across them, and I was assured that yes, it was fine. Plus I read on my iPhone and my computer. Five devices! If I had bought paperbacks, my husband and I would have shared them, and I'd probably have loaned them to a friend, too, if they were good enough. More eyeballs on a book = Good Things. That's why I offer free books.

Also, I don't worry much about piracy. Or returns. My returns have held steady for a while now, something like 1.2%. (Closer to 2% at the beginning.) I expect it. I don't worry about why. Some people didn't like the book. Fine. Some people got the wrong book--thought they were getting #1 and got #3 instead, or whatever. Also fine. Some people clicked in error--what are you gonna do? And some people are abusing the system. How many? Not very many.

Same with pirates. My latest book was pirated within 24 hours. Yeah, it makes me kinda sad, but people who buy pirated books . . . they know they are buying pirated books. They are not going to buy your books. I could spend my time sending out take-down notices, or I could write a new book. I know which one I'd rather do.

(Which is not saying it is OK to do. It is not OK to do. I do not buy pirated books or music or movies, never have. But there is a fraction of people out there who think "all content should be free." You bet I disagree with them, but they are a tiny minority. I think most readers get that authors and musicians and filmmakers WORK to produce their stuff.)


----------



## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't care about piracy as long as someone's not selling my work for profit.


----------



## Robert Stanek (Nov 16, 2013)

JanneCO said:


> I'm with Robert 100% on this. That's pretty much all I'm gonna say about it because for some reason, this forum thinks piracy is no big deal. But whatever to them. I think Pirates are scum and I use DRM and Muso. People read the books once. Twice, maybe, if they are big time fans, three times on three devices? _Right_.
> 
> Thanks for the great thread, Robert. Keep on it.


Thanks, JanneCO!


----------



## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Nope. Already countered.



CraigInTwinCities said:


> P.S. Someone above stated that people "only" read a book 1-2 times. I'm not at all in favor of the idea that one should limit how many times a book can be READ. That's worse than even the most restrictive DRM stuff out there! If I've paid for a book, and it becomes a favorite book, I should be free to read it as many times as I want... whether someone thinks "people never re-read favorite books" or not!


----------



## shalym (Sep 1, 2010)

JanneCO]People read the books once. Twice said:


> I never even read your post, so I certainly was not talking about you,. Ditto to Julie.


No...you weren't talking directly about those people. You did, however imply that nobody would ever read a book more than twice, and anyone who said that they did was lying, and was actually pirating the book. I believe you lost yourself some readers. Congratulations...keep up the good work! Between you and Robert Stanek, I now have 2 more authors on my never ever read list--why would I read a book by any author who automatically assumes I am a thief and a liar? (...and just so you're clear on this, I know that neither of you called me, personally a thief and a liar...instead, you called everyone who shares an account or reads a book more than twice thieves and liars)

Shari


----------



## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

I've read books multiple times, and on multiple devices (phone, tablet, laptop, kindle). Before all the electronic gadgets I used to do the same with paperbacks, but now it's easier to read on whatever device that I'm carrying with me. 

Also, people rip DRM so they can have a copy of the book, not one that they've paid for to be left in the cloud and subject to whatever whim a company like Amazon may have. I buy my books so I can download them where possible. Then I can store them the way I want to.


----------

