# What if you knew a book marketing secret?



## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Let's say you stumbled across a book marketing service/trick that was very cost effective. Something along the lines of ENT or such, but you didn't see very many writers using it.

Would you:

a. Post about it and watch the hordes overwhelm and eventually make it ineffective?
b. Keep it too yourself?
c. Write a how-to book on e-publishing and sell your knowledge?
d. Offer to selectively share the secret for sexual favors?
e. None of the above?

I can neither confirm nor deny I've discovered such a thing. I'm just curious what you good folks would do.


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## FrankColes (Feb 22, 2012)

I'd probably go with b. and test it a bit more first. If it works then I'd ramp up my sales to multi-millions then share it about with a John Locke style book. Before that though I'd start by PMing the secret to the author of this response for some external testing


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

D. Definitely D.

But that's how I handle everythign in life.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

B for at least a few weeks


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

You're killing me Joe.  What do you know?

They say that most criminals get caught because they can't resist the temptation to brag to someone about what they got away with.  The temptation to brag about how smart you are versus the profit motive is a close match.  I think I'd give in to the temptation to brag.


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## markobeezy (Jan 30, 2012)

Definitely B, and then after I'm rich, A.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

E.  I would share it privately with a few other writers who have been kind enough to help me on here when I've needed it, and the few I have become close with. I would want them to see the same success. (No sexual favors. Although the sex might be fun, I doubt they would be interested...and I am faithful to my husband because he is really my soulmate.  Sickeningly sweet statement to some, I suppose, but true.)

I know it seems selfiish not to share it with everyone, but once everyone uses it, the effectiveness wears off. Once me and those I shared it with have become successful and can live off our royalties, then I would probably post it.

Now I just have to discover that secret...and you all better be nice to me if you want in on it!


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

markobeezy said:


> Definitely B, and then after I'm rich, A.


But I'm already rich (at least by my standards)...LOL


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> D. Definitely D.
> 
> But that's how I handle everythign in life.


OMG TG...you can notch up one coffee nose-spew...


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I would find someone with the kindleboard name of "Steve W." and I would share it with him, and him alone. I would do that now. I would also give him all my money... so... yeah... I'll just be over here... yano, if you need me.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

c. and did and sold 4,000 copies of it.   But when I started eBooking, everything was a secret.  

Edward C. Patterson
O! Pioneer!


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> But I'm already rich (at least by my standards)...LOL


Well, you asked how "i" would handle it and I'm not making a living wage off of my books yet. If I was already doing that, I would choose my first response first, telling them that I was going to make it "public" here on the board in, say, 90 days. That gives those who were helpful and those who have offered friendship time to use it before everyone does and it becomes ineffective. After 90 days I would post it and let as many use it as possible until it no longer worked.


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

D.  All the way.  Well, except for the sex part unless . . .


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

F. Internet stalk the OP until I find out what the hell it is ...


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Eric C said:


> F. Internet stalk the OP until I find out what the hell it is ...


I like your style. Come sit next to me.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> D. Definitely D.
> 
> But that's how I handle everythign in life.


I like the cut of your jib, madame.

All joking aside, that is a really tough question, Joe. I've gained tons of knowledge from Kindleboards and would want to share. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to kill the goose. I would probably share it with a few people that could use the help but not make a general post about it.

so, I guess my answer would be E.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Methinks Joe Nobody is hinting that he himself is employing the D-method. Which is okay, since many of us aspire to break into the smut-writing business, so this could be filed under research.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Methinks Joe Nobody is hinting that he himself is employing the D-method. Which is okay, since many of us aspire to break into the smut-writing business, so this could be filed under research.


  Nope...not me. Mrs. Nobody is a mean woman and a fine shot with a pistol. She was taught by the best, but not the smartest guy around.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Write a book and sell the secret? Oh no, I'm thinking more along the lines of $500 per person.


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## Poovey (Aug 25, 2011)

I prefer Amazon gift cards over sexual favors.


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

Ok, Joe, how much do we have to pay you to learn the secret


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## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Nope...not me. Mrs. Nobody is a mean woman and a fine shot with a pistol. She was taught by the best, but not the smartest guy around.


Yeah, what were you THINKING? Now you have to behave yourself!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

As I'm not really into marketing, I find it hard to imagine myself in that situation!

If telling everyone about it would stop it from working (or vastly reduce its effectiveness) then I'd probably just share it with a few people I liked or thought were working hard/in it for the long haul and deserved a tip.

If telling everyone wouldn't stop it from working, then I'd probably tell everyone.

I don't really do, "I've got a cool toy and you can't have it."  However, I would do, "I've got a cool toy and no, you can't have it because you'll only break it."


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## whatdanwrote (Oct 18, 2012)

Looking at this logically, I would have to go with A.

If the secret is truly effective, I would have already tested it out with my own books, and be flush with cash. It would be impossible to keep it to myself, that's just not human nature. I don't need to trade it for sex, because I'll have my money to keep my warm at night, and I wouldn't need to epublish it, because the book wouldn't fit in with the rest of my "brand."

Better to give back to the community, and see who have enough ambition to ride it to success first.


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## Just Another Writer (Mar 14, 2013)

If it's something that works really well, then people are going to figure it out eventually. So I would share it with my dear friends here at the kindle boards so that they could get in on the action before it all dried up. 

Deep down I'd want to keep it to myself but I wouldn't want to mess with my karma


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Since Joe is a prepper and since prepping is all about self-preservation (in my limited understanding) I'm guessing that Joe is likely to lean toward B.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

If I knew that everyone piling on would ruin it, what would be the point of posting about it?

I'd probably just share it with a few close fellow indie writiers.


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## Kwalker (Aug 23, 2012)

I have relied so heavily on the community here, that I wouldn't be able to refrain from sharing it with others. I'd feel guilty if I didn't, honestly.

But no one listens to me anyway, so it probably wouldn't ruin anything =


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## Bruce Rousseau (Mar 3, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> Since Joe is a prepper and since prepping is all about self-preservation (in my limited understanding) I'm guessing that Joe is likely to lean toward B.


True. But he shares a lot of his prepper info on his website. So I figure this one's a tough call for Joe.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I've got it, his wife is standing on a busy street corner holding a sign. Am I right? Am I?


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

This is a tough one.  We have to wear many hats as self published authors.  The business/marketing persona says to keep it secret.  While we are not directly competing with each other like other lines of businesses (HP vs Dell), we are directly competing for visibility on Amazon, B&N, and other web sites.  If this trick keeps me visible and sharing it threatens that visibility I would be hesitant to share.  However I feel the better that we do as a whole is beneficial for everyone.  It will change perceptions that indie writers are worth looking into.  The traditional publishers will feel more pressure to change their draconian ways and offer better contracts, therefore sharing the knowledge would be good.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I've always been one to share my results of what has worked for me, here at Kboards, and before that, at another forum that kicked me off. 

I believe that I can't out give God, and to treat my neighbor (my fellow authors) the way I would want to be treated.

I also believe in "vengance is mine sayeth the Lord" so when I feel I've been mistreated, I leave it up to Him to deal with it.  

I love my family and friends and feel very blessed that I'm getting paid to do something I love. But hey, if you feel like sharing through a private PM, I can keep my mouth shut, too.


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

Hm... it is a dilemma. But I like to sick with my motto, "You succeed in life by helping others succeed." Where does that fit in with the options? Oh, yeah, definitely D!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Sometimes I get told something by someone else, and if they don't want the secret to get out, I try to respect that. (Though it's hard.)

FWIW, I'm not holding anything right now that isn't just common knowledge and stuff that's been suggested on here repeatedly.  

The thing about most of the tips is they aren't worth much on their own as parts.


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## jlmarten (May 9, 2012)

So...As a newb who has come here to lurk and to learn, if I read between the lines of the OP and everyone's response, should I assume that only the run of the mill stuff has been posted for public consumption? In other words, some of you - or at least one (I don't want to mention any names but his forum handle is JoeNobody) - has been holding out?

Shocked and appalled here.

I'm with Lisa on this one. God has always blessed me when I do unto others... I'd share it.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

I would probably share. Not that many people would listen anyway.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

WE HAVE THE MEANS TO MAKE YOU TALK, SIR!
*tickles foot with feather*


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## NathanHaleJefferson (Apr 3, 2013)

Eric C said:


> F. Internet stalk the OP until I find out what the hell it is ...


Just be careful, he is a heckuva shot with a rifle.... 

http://www.holdingyourground.com/SHVIDEO.php

Hitting a Frisbee in mid are with a rifle....


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Most effective marketing gimmicks  approaches have a very limited lifespan, and those that don't aren't so much ratted out by the few early benefactors as ratted out by their creators (after all, _they _want to be successful, too, and success is tied to virality). In other words, it's not likely to remain a secret for long anyway. I've benefited from the willingness of others to share their successes here, so I'd be inclined to do the same.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

jlmarten said:


> So...As a newb who has come here to lurk and to learn, if I read between the lines of the OP and everyone's response, should I assume that only the run of the mill stuff has been posted for public consumption? In other words, some of you - or at least one (I don't want to mention any names but his forum handle is JoeNobody) - has been holding out?
> 
> Shocked and appalled here.
> 
> I'm with Lisa on this one. God has always blessed me when I do unto others... I'd share it.


It's all pretty run of the mill. There is no silver bullet. What it boils down to is basically this: I find a site called bookbub. Submit my free book to it. Wow! I get 25,000 downloads. That's cool. A couple days later someone posts a thread asking "has anyone used bookbub?" I respond to the thread (as do others) and say I got 25,000 downloads. A few months later there are thousands of replies to the thread and great results, and bookbub is "huge" not because someone came running to kboards to tell everyone about a secret promotional thing, but because that's the way things naturally go. There are no secrets on the Internet. Those early bookbub adopters weren't "holding out" hoping that they could keep the success all to themselves. They just do what they do. (That's a semi hypothetical scenario btw)


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## jasonzc (Dec 23, 2011)

Pam Poovey said:


> I prefer Amazon gift cards over sexual favors.


I was really hoping to see 'Sploosh' catch on. ; ) Nice.

It's pretty obvious that anything new will be run into the ground within months, when it gets out. You should use it to your advantage, and then quietly share it with Kboards once you've gotten what you need out of it. By the time it escapes from here, I doubt it will work any longer.


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## Bree Roberts (Dec 1, 2012)

I'd have to share it, it's just my nature.  Then we could all afford to be preppers and stick it to the man when the man comes knocking!

Or I could just cyber sex.  Either one works for me.


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## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

A couple of years ago, I did have a great genre-specific marketing trick which I shared with a few indie friends (alas, no sexual favours involved). it was great while it lasted and boosted sales of my first release.

Haven't found anything like it since


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

It's very gratifying to see how many KBers give up their secrets for sex.

Happy sigh.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Hold out for...


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## lmckinley (Oct 3, 2012)

Anything that actually works is bound to be - well - work. Share it with whoever you like. Most people will be too lazy to implement it. (probably myself included.)


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

lmckinley said:


> Anything that actually works is bound to be - well - work. Share it with whoever you like. Most people will be too lazy to implement it. (probably myself included.)


I've followed about 2,000 more people on Twitter in the past week (many of them followed back) and my book sales went up by a handful per day. That's my secret. And it's a lot of work.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2013)

Share it, of course.  If it's truly effective, it will survive hordes of indies flocking to it.  Otherwise, it's just another way to game the system and will eventually die out whether I share it or not.

One of the best things about this new world of publishing is the openness of the indie community and the eagerness to share information.  This isn't a zero-sub game--we can all succeed together.

Break down the gates!


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## Just Another Writer (Mar 14, 2013)

lmckinley said:


> Most people will be too lazy to implement it. (probably myself included.)


Yes. Probably me as well!


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## Calvin Locke (Mar 6, 2012)

I would share it. People are going to find out about it at some point anyway. I'd like to know that I helped some people get in early and really take advantage of it.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

As Simma says: "Once words are spoken, they’re out of the bag and fair game for gossip. If you don’t want people to know things, don’t tell anyone. That's just common sense."

So either spill it, Joe, or stop tormenting us!


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## Robena (Jan 19, 2013)

I'd share it. I believe in paying it forward. If it could help others to reach success, fabulous.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I'd share it. I'm where I am today because other authors shared with me. So if it worked, I'd tell y'all.


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## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

I'd hoard it and cower in my cave, glued to my computer till I was bug-eyed, whispering "my precious" over and over as I watched my sales figures and slowly went mad. And then I'd design a treasure hunt for the secret and put it in a book that I'd sell for $1000 per copy. Bwahhaha.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Underlying this thread is the thought that is often spoken with a chuckle, "Oh sure. Like there's some kind of secret handshake a few of us know", which trivializes the concept and marginalizes those who talk about it seriously.

However, in a series of KB private messages a couple of years ago, I actually got a very successful author to admit to using "black ops" (her phrase) in achieving success. Naturally, she wouldn't tell me any more because she didn't want to "spoil it for the few of us" who were (and maybe still are) using these techniques. She then went on to say she always counseled other writers to write more books, get them professionally edited and formatted, get a killer cover, blah blah blah. And then she always added, "Remember. It's a marathon, not a sprint," as she sprinted to wild success.

Remember John Locke and his paid-for reviews? He conveniently omitted that crucial step to success in his "how I did it" book. You think he was the only one doing that? You really think people haven't devised other underhanded means of achieving inordinately high sales figures? There's a place in Asia that, for a fee plus expenses, will buy thousands of copies of your digital book in an untraceable fashion, using multiple servers all over the world. You price it at 99¢ for that period, put out a few grand, and next thing you know, your book has legs and you're sailing up the Amazon charts. 

Now I know the "secret handshake" chucklers are probably going to reply that the writer with whom I was corresponding was merely pulling my leg, having a couple of laughs at my expense. Maybe so. But I think that's most unlikely. The writers who have told their fantastic stories on KB of selling tens of thousands of books in their first few months while doing absolutely no promotion whatever ("Just lucky, I guess" is their mantra. Maybe you've noticed.) are not telling the full story. And it's because of option B.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Yes, there are "grey" areas. I am guessing people don't post those things simply because they don't want to out themselves.

I think the biggest not-so-secret secret is to keep releasing material that's full of heart and consistent with your previous work so you keep your fans happy.

But I've put out 14 books and learned from every one. Nobody wants to hear my secrets because most people don't want to have to do that. It's a lot of books. They want to hear from the first-book-hit-wonders and what they do.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Mike Dennis said:


> Underlying this thread is the thought that is often spoken with a chuckle, "Oh sure. Like there's some kind of secret handshake a few of us know", which trivializes the concept and marginalizes those who talk about it seriously.
> 
> However, in a series of KB private messages a couple of years ago, I actually got a very successful author to admit to using "black ops" (her phrase) in achieving success. Naturally, she wouldn't tell me any more because she didn't want to "spoil it for the few of us" who were (and maybe still are) using these techniques. She then went on to say she always counseled other writers to write more books, get them professionally edited and formatted, get a killer cover, blah blah blah. And then she always added, "Remember. It's a marathon, not a sprint," as she sprinted to wild success.
> 
> ...


Or maybe those writers who achieve success using underhanded means, besides being selfish, know that what they're doing is wrong. Nobody advertises that they're a cheat.

Having said that, maybe that _is _really the only real way to get quick success.

Naw.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Now I know the "secret handshake" chucklers are probably going to reply that the writer with whom I was corresponding was merely pulling my leg, having a couple of laughs at my expense. Maybe so. But I think that's most unlikely. The writers who have told their fantastic stories on KB of selling tens of thousands of books in their first few months while doing absolutely no promotion whatever ("Just lucky, I guess" is their mantra. Maybe you've noticed.) are not telling the full story. And it's because of option B.


I divide my KB experience into two epochs - the one before September of 2012 and the one after.

B.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I divide my KB experience into two epochs - the one before September of 2012 and the one after.
> 
> B.


Well, THAT'S cryptic and intriguing. What sort of favors will be required for you to elaborate?

You DO know I write erotica on the side, eh?


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> Well, THAT'S cryptic and intriguing. What sort of favors will be required for you to elaborate?


It was the month the socks came out of the drawer and many of the folks I shared data with left the boards. The nature of the WC seemed to gradually shift. People became far more guarded, I transitioned my "serious" discussions to IM, and all those fantastic number crunching threads seemed to grind to a halt. The boards are a different beast now. Not worse, necessarily, but different.

Oh, and the Kindle DX was officially de-supported that month. That really made me sore.

B.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> It was the month the socks came out of the drawer and many of the folks I shared data with left the boards. The nature of the WC seemed to gradually shift. People became far more guarded, I transitioned my "serious" discussions to IM, and all those fantastic number crunching threads seemed to grind to a halt. The boards are a different beast now. Not worse, necessarily, but different.
> 
> Oh, and the Kindle DX was officially de-supported that month. That really made me sore.
> 
> B.


Yes, there was that noticeable shift. For what it's worth, I sorely miss those data threads and read every one with much anticipated interest. *Looks around for key to the secret club.*


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> *Looks around for key to the secret club.*


Don't worry. You're about to get your super-secret little orphan Annie decoder ring very, very soon.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

You know, as this thread keeps percolating, I keep thinking about things.

For example, recently a member was posting some helpful tips and another member jumped onto the Inquisition Train, accusing the OP author of repubbing under new ASINs on Amazon. (Something that had not happened at all.)

Now, I took *ONE* of my books and re-pubbed it with a new ending and some additional material, new ASIN. It was not a secret, and I announced as such to both of my blogs, etc., but was afraid to mention it on here, because I was sure I'd be the target of a small mob.

So, some of us are quiet about things that are completely allowed by Amazon's TOS and by our own business ideals, yet don't post on here because some people might think it wrong.

THAT is the kind of information that won't get shared on here, no matter how much some of us indies like to help out the community.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Why do I keep checking in on this thread? 

I just know I have better things to do. 

(Secrets? Did someone mention secrects?!!)


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Don't worry. You're about to get your super-secret little orphan Annie decoder ring very, very soon.


Promise?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> Promise?


All Annie ever says is


Spoiler



"Remember to drink your Ovaltine."


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

I am the last to know anything. I've always been this way. In the corporate world, that served me well as I stayed on the sidelines when the heavy stuff rained down or hit the proverbial fan (politics, inappropriate liaisons). You cannot hide these unsavory deeds forever because what goes around comes around. Karma, indeed. I was always the last to know about that stuff. I just worked my 80 hours a week and did my thing, made my money $$ and provided quite well for the fam-dam-ily. Now, I just work all the time and every day of the flipping week still endeavoring to discover the secret code to best sellerdom. (How I hate that about myself some days.)

I read this thread early this morning and debated in my mind if we were talking moral code or not. It delved into mentions of God and I refrained from commenting after that. My estimation in lurkdism would say there are about 100 writers here who follow the threads on a regular to semi-regular basis. This thread and the telling of the secret sauce might help out those writers--a manageable and certainly worthy group. But if it involves a violation of the Zon's TOS or manipulating fans via FB for a third novel installment or buying readers in Asia by manipulating servers, I think you could count most of us out. My feeling about this board is that although at times it becomes quite visceral there is a greater good more than evil intention by any one of us including those that have since left.

Personally, in regards to hitting big with a book, I think it still comes down to word of mouth and that people will recommend a book they're reading only if it's good. There's some correlation between wasting a person's time with bad meaningless dribble versus good fiction/good writing that a person stakes their reputation (and perhaps their intellect on) in recommending it to someone else. WOM yes. Getting news of it out in the world...key.

As Ms. Dayla says above...with fourteen books out...chances for more recognition would seem to follow if the work's good. 

If you've got something, Joe...do tell.


Have I lost everybody? Do I make any sense whatsoever, today?


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

here's the thing, and this might sound shi*** of me, but i've become much more aware of what i imagine to be this massive ocean of lurkers who don't participate and don't post, but take the info and use it. are there hundreds? thousands?  i dunno.  so there's the question of who am i really sharing with? i dunno. the ocean, maybe. and who is in that ocean? i dunno.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Anne Frasier said:


> here's the thing, and this might sound shi*** of me, but i've become much more aware of what i imagine to be this massive ocean of lurkers who don't participate and don't post, but take the info and use it. are there hundreds? thousands? i dunno. so there's the question of who am i really sharing with? i dunno. the ocean, maybe. and who is in that ocean? i dunno.


This.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I say we form a super secret club just so we can share super secret stuff. Members only. No lurkers allowed. Oh, wait, how many of us already belong to one (or more) or these?

In all seriousness, most people who discover the secret sauce for super-duper success aren't going to be sticking around to share (with a few notable exceptions). But given that these are pitifully few and far between and their paths are typically unfollowable anyway (how many have tried to emulate Hugh and failed?), what we're really talking about are the tricks and strategies for achieving moderate success, and since the valid techniques (not just pure, dumb luck or one-offs) tend to be a bit more robust, who cares if the lurkers benefit from them?


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Anyone who says, "Just keep your head down and write the next book," is either handing out the placebo or taking it.

I always say that you need to keep writing, but also that you need to learn the business as well, orelse you're just a prawn. Learn reader expectations for the genre. Experiment. Most of what we do isn't so very secret, because all our books are right out there in the open.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Anne Frasier said:


> i imagine to be this massive ocean of lurkers who don't participate and don't post, but take the info and use it. are there hundreds? thousands?


As of this post, there were 1179 who had read this post and 71 who had posted. So 1108 who saw but didn't speak. "Lurkers," if you will. Just for the record.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2013)

H. S. St. Ours said:


> As of this post, there were 1179 who had read this post and 71 who had posted. So 1108 who saw but didn't speak. "Lurkers," if you will. Just for the record.


Those are page visits, not unique visitors. Probably a dozen of them are mine.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> All Annie ever says is
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


LOL...I loved The Christmas Story! Poor Ralphie.

I would share my secrets with those who had been kind to me, or those who really need a helping hand, or those who....aw forget it. I'd spill my guts and tell everyone! Sadly, I don't know any secrets.


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## Lawrence Peters (Apr 25, 2013)

If I knew any secrets, I'm not even sure right now I would know that they were secrets, or, in fact, that they were of much use to anybody 

But, one day!!


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Anne Frasier said:


> here's the thing, and this might sound shi*** of me, but i've become much more aware of what i imagine to be this massive ocean of lurkers who don't participate and don't post, but take the info and use it. are there hundreds? thousands? i dunno. so there's the question of who am i really sharing with? i dunno. the ocean, maybe. and who is in that ocean? i dunno.


I thought this was interesting. I'm someone who has read these boards for a long time - I get a lot of the in-jokes, and have seen changes in tone/discussions over the years - but almost never post because as an unpublished, aspiring writer, I often feel like I don't have much to add. I've purchased and loved books by many of the authors here, and admired the guts it takes to do what you are doing. I read this board because I love to write, because I am fascinated by the changes happening in the publishing industry, and because I've been deeply confused at times about what I am doing with my life, as compared to what I want to do with it - which is write. But you guys ARE doing it; to me, at least, you are living out the dream, as difficult as it can be.

So my initial reaction to the above is this -- are lurkers not intended to benefit from the data and discussions shared on this (or any public) forum? If I had data, I'd share it, certainly. And I would realize that the Internet is public, and it is forever. Over time I have gathered quite a bit of knowledge from here about what works in self-publishing and what's a crapshoot. Does that make me a moocher? Maybe right now. But when I DO have advice and data and etc to share, then I'll do it.

I would also note that this forum moves fast and there are many, many strong voices here, which can make it intimidating for some. At least, that has been true for me!  When and how does one "jump in"? How does one jump into a forum with inside-jokes and existing relationships among people with far more experience than you? And today: With a call for a "members only" club so those sea-drenched lurkers don't benefit from anything you say? The WC can be welcoming and friendly and it's a tremendous resource, but it already IS a club.

I don't presume to speak for all the lurkers here, but I just wanted to jump in and note that while maybe there are greedy lurkers, who just want to take advice and run and not contribute anything, I sort of object to that characterization. But I do understand the desire to know to whom one is "paying it forward." And for that reason, I've started posting more.

That said: For myself, at least, if I am sharing information that might help others then I'm going to do it indiscriminately - because who am I to judge?

I really do appreciate the help and advice willingly shared on this forum. One day I hope to be able to do the same.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Welcome, Diana!

And, it looks like you figured out how to jump in.  I'm glad you did!


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

To add to what Diana posted, as both a lurker and an unpublished author, I think any value a "greedy" lurker could gain here is limited. This is a fast-moving board, there's a mutual understanding of current trends and technology with limited explanations (i.e. some discussions could be written in Klingon love poetry for all I know,) and it is apparent that this whole indie writing thing is changing _daily_ so if you read back in the archives, it's not going to apply now.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> Promise?


Cross my heart and hope to die. But only if you drink all your ovaltine.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

Mike Dennis said:


> Now I know the "secret handshake" chucklers are probably going to reply that the writer with whom I was corresponding was merely pulling my leg, having a couple of laughs at my expense. Maybe so. But I think that's most unlikely. The writers who have told their fantastic stories on KB of selling tens of thousands of books in their first few months while doing absolutely no promotion whatever ("Just lucky, I guess" is their mantra. Maybe you've noticed.) are not telling the full story. And it's because of option B.


I'd probably fall somewhat under this qualification, and whether or not you believe me, 'just lucky' seems to be the only way I can explain it. The whole thing still awes me, even as the momentum slows. I'm not debating that there's plenty of underhanded tactics out there, but sometimes the stars actually do just align. It's not really fair to go throwing blanket statements out there like that. You're essentially writing off anyone who happens to do well right off the bat as a cheat.

As for the original topic, it's a tough choice, but I fall in the 'it probably won't last long anyway' camp and would wind up sharing it. But it's hard not to consider hanging onto it yourself and hoping it can stay a secret weapon.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> Cross my heart and hope to die. But only if you drink all your ovaltine.


yummmm, Ovaltine...(uh, I'm not sure I've ever had that beverage before. It looks like chocolate milk though. I suppose I can sacrifice.)


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

Deanna Chase said:


> yummmm, Ovaltine...(uh, I'm not sure I've ever had that beverage before. It looks like chocolate milk though. I suppose I can sacrifice.)


Ovaltine has a very distinct flavour though. It brings back memories of childhood. For some reason, I remember thinking it was more healthy than 'real' chocolate milk, but I have no idea why anymore.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)




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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Anne Frasier said:


> here's the thing, and this might sound shi*** of me...


Yes. It was.



Diana Gabrielle said:


> I thought this was interesting. I'm someone who has read these boards for a long time - I get a lot of the in-jokes, and have seen changes in tone/discussions over the years - but almost never post because as an unpublished, aspiring writer, I often feel like I don't have much to add. I've purchased and loved books by many of the authors here, and admired the guts it takes to do what you are doing. I read this board because I love to write, because I am fascinated by the changes happening in the publishing industry, and because I've been deeply confused at times about what I am doing with my life, as compared to what I want to do with it - which is write. But you guys ARE doing it; to me, at least, you are living out the dream, as difficult as it can be.
> 
> So my initial reaction to the above is this -- are lurkers not intended to benefit from the data and discussions shared on this (or any public) forum? If I had data, I'd share it, certainly. And I would realize that the Internet is public, and it is forever. Over time I have gathered quite a bit of knowledge from here about what works in self-publishing and what's a crapshoot. Does that make me a moocher? Maybe right now. But when I DO have advice and data and etc to share, then I'll do it.
> 
> ...


Nicely put. And, welcome. I'm sure everyone will be on their best behavior for at least the next couple of posts or so because of what you bravely said.

This is an intimidating board. (I've been around it for something like two years and my post number is only 240+. Yet, most likely someone will come along and correct me soon enough about how long I've been here or to the exact number of posts or as is usual not comment at all to what I've said.)

Truly, it's disappointing at times because most here are writers, who most certainly _know_ how to write "tone". Yet HERE? It is used like a runaway light saber from Star Wars far too often around here.

I don't pretend to know the inside jokes that run through these threads. I tire of the cliquish nature at times, too. Hang in there. There are more of us than we know; n'est pas?


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

hi diana!
i was afraid my comment might be offensive to many, in part because i don't think i explained myself very well, but i was absolutely not talking about members like you. i hate to go into it much more for fear of digging myself in deeper.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

My advice to any lurker out there who is afraid to post is to simply do it. Ask a question; answer one. Remember that all of the old-timers used to be newbs too. The only way to join is to, well, join. There is some snark on occasion (guilty) and some cranky (also guilty), but overall this board is kind and supportive. Come on in; the water's fine.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> My advice to any lurker out there who is afraid to post is to simply do it. Ask a question; answer one. Remember that all of the old-timers used to be newbs too. The only way to join is to, well, join. There is some snark on occasion (guilty) and some cranky (also guilty), but overall this board is kind and supportive. Come on in; the water's fine.


What she said. When I started posting here I didn't have a book out. But I asked a lot of questions and spent a good four months trying to figure out what everyone was talking about. Eventually you catch on. The way to become part of the crowd is to _be_ a part of the crowd.


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

Katherine Owen said:


> Truly, it's disappointing at times because most here are writers, who most certainly _know_ how to write "tone".


Sometimes this is true, but also remember that writers are busy like the rest of the world and trying to revise comments until the tone is just right is not possible for many. People often try to follow several threads at once and even keeping up with *reading* the comments is nearly impossible. If one stops to word a comment perfectly, one finds that 3 more pages have appeared in that time, rendering the comment obsolete. I'm not saying there aren't cases where folks could be a bit more friendly or thoughtful, but I always try to remember that everything is written in haste. I have been amazed at how some things I've written have been (mis)interpreted. No matter how clear I think I have been, someone can come up with a novel way of reading it that I never intended.


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## Marc Johnson (Feb 25, 2011)

Some of us *like* lurking. And while I rarely post on here, I have contacted people, read links, etc. because of this forum and reading other's posts.

Now, back to lurking...


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I just figured out what Joe_Nobody's secret is. It's to get us all so distracted that we're not writing and promoting, just obsessively checking this thread. Meanwhile, he's published three new books, all of which have hit the top 100 in their cats while ours have dropped into the low 300Ks.


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## Anotherdreamer (Jan 21, 2013)

I've started to do better. The only thing I've done is release a second book. I think maybe readers are scared of authors with one book?


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I just figured out what Joe_Nobody's secret is. It's to get us all so distracted that we're not writing and promoting, just obsessively checking this thread. Meanwhile, he's published three new books, all of which have hit the top 100 in their cats while ours have dropped into the low 300Ks.


Busted.

I seriously didn't intend to start any sort of sh*tstorm.

As most have noted, the real question of my OP was where do you drawl the line between helping and surviving? Bookbub is "full" until who knows when. ENT, according to some, has raised it prices. Is it a safe statement that there are more authors/books than both readers and marketing outlets?

If you think there are readers out there starving for books...people who can't find anything to read...then perhaps it is a simple equation of communications. I don't believe there are very many book-starved readers roaming the internet. I think it's a consumer's market, which means we are technically competing with each other. Is it wise to help a competitor?


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Thank you for the friendly welcomes! And hello to fellow lurkers!



Anne Frasier said:


> hi diana!
> i was afraid my comment might be offensive to many, in part because i don't think i explained myself very well, but i was absolutely not talking about members like you. i hate to go into it much more for fear of digging myself in deeper.


Hi Anne! Thanks and no worries - I don't think you were offensive! I think I get what you mean.  I know I engaged your post directly but I really just wanted to offer, in a more tangential way, the perspective of a lurker - simply because it's easy to make assumptions about a group that rarely speaks for itself.

Monique & others - I agree that if you _want_ to jump in, you should just do it! This is advice that's not only good on the Internet!

As for tone - to me, the WC is a lot tamer than many other writers' forums I've seen. Sometimes it's rough, but then again, it's the Internet - you just gotta shake it off.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Joe_Nobody said:


> If you think there are readers out there starving for books...people who can't find anything to read...then perhaps it is a simple equation of communications. I don't believe there are very many book-starved readers roaming the internet. I think it's a consumer's market, which means we are technically competing with each other. Is it wise to help a competitor?


I think Joe Konrath has addressed this pretty well, that authors don't compete with each other in the traditional sense - his logic goes something like this: just because someone reads Danielle Steel doesn't mean they don't also read Nicholas Sparks. A romance reader doesn't read just one romance or one author. (We see this with trends - BDSM erotica is popular because FSOG was popular, and readers wanted more, not less.) And that this is especially true in the digital marketplace, where books are priced lower and the consumer can use the same amount of money to buy more books. (I will try to find a link where he explains his position.)

So, for the sake of clarity - Joe is not really competing with other authors of prepper books because a prepper will want to read lots of different books on the subject, right? And Joe is probably competing even less with, say, Dalya, because they are writing in totally different genres.  Nevertheless, everyone is striving for discoverability, and slots in places like ENT and BookBub ARE limited.

Not sure how that affects the sharing of trade secrets, but it's much nicer to think of fellow writers as colleagues, as opposed to competition!


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## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

Mike Dennis said:


> Underlying this thread is the thought that is often spoken with a chuckle, "Oh sure. Like there's some kind of secret handshake a few of us know", which trivializes the concept and marginalizes those who talk about it seriously.
> 
> However, in a series of KB private messages a couple of years ago, I actually got a very successful author to admit to using "black ops" (her phrase) in achieving success. Naturally, she wouldn't tell me any more because she didn't want to "spoil it for the few of us" who were (and maybe still are) using these techniques. She then went on to say she always counseled other writers to write more books, get them professionally edited and formatted, get a killer cover, blah blah blah. And then she always added, "Remember. It's a marathon, not a sprint," as she sprinted to wild success.
> 
> ...


Intriguing! This is like finding a fleeting reference to a treasure map or a faint entry in a port log as to the course taken by a gold-laden galleon that later went down in a storm.

I have a friend who has long suspected there is a secret method to achieving high sales, which successful authors will not reveal. I've always told her, "Nah."


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 25/9/2018_


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## Sarah M (Apr 6, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> If you think there are readers out there starving for books...people who can't find anything to read...then perhaps it is a simple equation of communications. *I don't believe there are very many book-starved readers roaming the internet.*


But if you switch it around, readers (myself included) are not suffering from a lack of something worthwhile to read, they (myself included) are overwhelmed by the bounty before them. Which leads to "paralysis of analysis." And then that leads to sticking with the same genres time after time and not exploring because there are just so many choices all time, contrasted with the fact that there is only so much time one person can read, even if they have no cares in the world.

So blog after blog has been created, more and more sites started that have grown huge and so complicated it just compounds the problem (I am looking at you, Goodreads.) Not only are there more choices for what to read, there are more choices for what to read to find what to read...

If someone could solve THAT problem, they would be an instant marketing genius. Until it became a monolithic behemoth of it's own making and we're right back to square one, but I bet it would be a fantastic ride up until then.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Maya Cross said:


> I'd probably fall somewhat under this qualification, and whether or not you believe me, 'just lucky' seems to be the only way I can explain it. The whole thing still awes me, even as the momentum slows. I'm not debating that there's plenty of underhanded tactics out there, but sometimes the stars actually do just align. It's not really fair to go throwing blanket statements out there like that. You're essentially writing off anyone who happens to do well right off the bat as a cheat.


I'm not calling all successful authors cheats, Maya. No blanket statements here. But I am saying that someone who achieves inordinate success in a very short period of time did not "just get lucky". Luck doesn't sell 25,000 books in your second month of publication as an unknown author. Neither can word of mouth work effectively in that brief a period. Something else _has to happen_, some causative event or sequence of events that ignites such sales figures. My point is that even though a lot of these cases can be explained away by heavy promotion and hard work, there are some that can only be the result of methods the writers would rather not talk about.

There's one author I read about who had great success right off the bat, but he had carefully built a large mailing list prior to publication of his debut novel. He primed this list with very occasional (not annoying) notices about his upcoming novel. His cover was appealing, the description was concise, and he sold a lot of books. He didn't cheat. But neither did he "just get lucky".

Another author had worked for decades in the publishing business and had developed deep insider contacts. This was invaluable to her when she put out her first novel, bringing her a rush of immediate sales, after which point Amazon took over and promoted her internally. Her books have done very well ever since. She didn't cheat either. Nor did she "just get lucky".

I would imagine John Locke doesn't think he cheated when he paid for all those reviews and then neglected to mention it in his "how I did it" book. One thing, though, is for certain. He didn't "just get lucky".


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## R.V. Doon (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm living proof that luck skips around and misses some. I read through the mega "Select" thread. It was full of tips, but some might be dated now. I thing some people are born salesman and others aren't. That said, still waiting on the secret sauce.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Oh, I would just add it to the archives. By now that place looks like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

CarlG said:


> Intriguing! This is like finding a fleeting reference to a treasure map or a faint entry in a port log as to the course taken by a gold-laden galleon that later went down in a storm.
> 
> I have a friend who has long suspected there is a secret method to achieving high sales, which successful authors will not reveal. I've always told her, "Nah."


Thing is, there *is* a secret.

And it is something that so many of us glean over, and just sort of overlook willingly, because we tell ourselves it just couldn't be that prosaic, could it? No, no way.

We repeat the healthy mantra "write more books, and write the best books you can."

However, even having done so, even though it is mostly true, we still feel the strange "sixth" sense of having missed something else in the equation.

And here it is, the secret thing we're choosing to overlook and miss, over and over.

It is _*money*_.

The dirty little secret above and beyond persistence and talent is money -- in other words, the means to utilize every and all possible beneficial resources at our disposal. I am talking not just about paid advertizing, but everything else that money can buy -- time (yours and other professionals who can help you), assistance of others (minions, a street team, posse, whatever) you can pay to do publishing tasks for you (high end cover design, editing, website, creative legwork), the ability to pay hefty entrance fees to various exclusive contests and opportunities for exposure such as high profile ARC venues and mass mailings, the usage of PR Newswire, NetGalley, special PR Firms, Book Tours, etc.

All of the above and more, *cumulatively*.

If you cannot afford even a single Bookbub ad, frankly your options to get exposure are limited.

And if you say you've been using some (or even many) of the above techniques regularly, and paying for numerous ads and services, and you are still in a mid-list rut and have not achieved the proverbial break-out, I say to you -- how much *worse off* would you be now if you had not in fact done any of those *paid things*?

So yes, that's the secret, folks.

Money (and the liberal, cleverly planned usage of it) allows you to buy a bouquet of multiple opportunities, including that one thing that in your case could be that bit of luck that will catapult you into the stratosphere.

But you already know it.

Time to face the reality.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> ...
> And here it is, the secret thing we're choosing to overlook and miss, over and over.
> 
> It is _*money*_.
> ...


Stuff does start to add up. I do my own formatting and covers, but the stock still costs money. Plus prizes for the blog tour. Plus those paid promoted posts on Facebook and all that FB nonsense. I ordered a hundred paperbacks for $600 with shipping and duty, and it will likely cost me three times that again to mail them out everywhere.

If you see my worn-out shoes and hole-y socks, you'll know I'm kinda thrifty, so it's hard to lay out that cash.

An author could spend $5k bringing a book to market and not even be getting ripped off. I think you can still have a hit for zero $, but you have to trade time if you don't have money.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Dalya said:


> Stuff does start to add up. I do my own formatting and covers, but the stock still costs money. Plus prizes for the blog tour. Plus those paid promoted posts on Facebook and all that FB nonsense. I ordered a hundred paperbacks for $600 with shipping and duty, and it will likely cost me three times that again to mail them out everywhere.
> 
> If you see my worn-out shoes and hole-y socks, you'll know I'm kinda thrifty, so it's hard to lay out that cash.
> 
> An author could spend $5k bringing a book to market and not even be getting ripped off. I think you can still have a hit for zero $, but you have to trade time if you don't have money.


Yup, that's what I'm talking about. 

It is sneaky, because time = money. Yours, somebody's, etc. We can call it something else, but it is what it is.

Luck also takes money. I like to say that "before a lottery ticket is a winner, someone has to buy it" -- in other words, literally it's not luck, it's *luck plus a buck* (or more, if you bought a bunch) that gets you that winning ticket.

As someone who also does pretty much everything myself, it all adds up to my health and life energy, and giving it my all.

And I am flat broke, with holes and empty fridge too. This year I am in the lowest point ever (recovering from foreclosure and bankruptcy and major illness etc, etc) but I've been actually for once paying for some things, but it's all blood money, food money, literally.

So it's all money underneath.

*tired sigh*


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Money isn't a secret. It's just an additional factor. Some books with no money spent on them have done very well. I'm sure you could spend thousands on the wrong book and get very little return. Knowing where to spend the money is more important than the money.

And once you equate time with money, then writing books will usually seem like a bad use of time.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Diana Gabrielle said:


> I think Joe Konrath has addressed this pretty well, that authors don't compete with each other in the traditional sense - his logic goes something like this: just because someone reads Danielle Steel doesn't mean they don't also read Nicholas Sparks. A romance reader doesn't read just one romance or one author. (We see this with trends - BDSM erotica is popular because FSOG was popular, and readers wanted more, not less.) And that this is especially true in the digital marketplace, where books are priced lower and the consumer can use the same amount of money to buy more books. (I will try to find a link where he explains his position.)
> 
> So, for the sake of clarity - Joe is not really competing with other authors of prepper books because a prepper will want to read lots of different books on the subject, right? And Joe is probably competing even less with, say, Dalya, because they are writing in totally different genres.  Nevertheless, everyone is striving for discoverability, and slots in places like ENT and BookBub ARE limited.
> 
> Not sure how that affects the sharing of trade secrets, but it's much nicer to think of fellow writers as colleagues, as opposed to competition!


You should post more often.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Yes, there are "grey" areas. I am guessing people don't post those things simply because they don't want to out themselves.
> 
> I think the biggest not-so-secret secret is to keep releasing material that's full of heart and consistent with your previous work so you keep your fans happy.
> 
> But I've put out 14 books and learned from every one. Nobody wants to hear my secrets because most people don't want to have to do that. It's a lot of books. They want to hear from the first-book-hit-wonders and what they do.


Your attitude is something I will have to keep reminding myself. At the end of the day, hard work is the only thing that will reliably get results.

As proud as I am of my first book, I am pretty darn sure its not going to be a first-book-hit-wonder. I will try to get some book reviewers interested next week, set up a print version, and get a free run going, though I just need to get onto the next book.

More writing = more editing = more publishing = more winning.

[darn typos...]


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Diana Gabrielle said:


> So, for the sake of clarity - Joe is not really competing with other authors of prepper books because a prepper will want to read lots of different books on the subject, right? And Joe is probably competing even less with, say, Dalya, because they are writing in totally different genres.  Nevertheless, everyone is striving for discoverability, and slots in places like ENT and BookBub ARE limited.
> 
> Not sure how that affects the sharing of trade secrets, but it's much nicer to think of fellow writers as colleagues, as opposed to competition!


I believe Joe (Joe K.) was correct at the time of his writing. Things have changed in the last year. In December of 2011, there were 17 prepper books released, as best we could count. In Dec of 2012, one of my guys stopped counting at 196. So I agree with his POV that preppers will want more books in their bailiwick as accurate...*until they are avalanched with choices*. One person can only read/afford so many books. I think that is what a lot of writers face and why the word "competitor" creeps into the mindset. If not competitor, at least a hint of "protectionism."

BTW...I love helping other writers and have received such great input myself. I mean, come on, I'm a teacher in the school of combat for God's sake. It's in my blood to help others. I don't view any of you good folks as competitors...but I do have a business to "protect."


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## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Is it wise to help a competitor?


Yes...

Too many reason to list.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

You keep it a secret among a select group of writers.

Why?

1. Other people have figured it out too and it won't be long before it will go public anyway.

2.Once it goes public, if retailers don't like it, they will push back. Either a change in algo or nasty TOS emails to authors threatening suspension of their account if they don't stop doing whatever the secret is.

I have witnessed 1 and 2 happen more than once.

Oh and 3. You sell it as an ebook when the technique is on its way out.

M


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Vera Nazarian said:


> It is _*money*_.


Yes. Outliers aside, if you view your writing as a business, you need to spend money to make money. And that includes advertising.

Everyone knows what Pepsi is, yet they don't stop advertising that brand. Even your corner shoe store has a yellow pages ad. Increasingly, if a business has no web presence it's not considered legit.

I'm fortunate to live in a town with a thriving artistic community. Some of the locals do better than others (Avril Lavigne, Three Days Grace, Sebastian Bach, Ronnie Hawkins and we can even claim Neil Young). The ones that stand out, that get the gigs and the grants and the exhibits are not necessarily the most talented. They are the ones that are busting their gut in marketing themselves. You see enough flyers pasted up everywhere, you start thinking that you know a band. You see enough art hung up in local restaurants and shops and you start recognizing the artist.

Finding and investing advertising opportunities needs to be part of our routines, unless you are fortunate enough to have a dedicated agent. It's an expense as much as editing, covers, and your internet access. 
Few of us can post a book at Amazon and watch the dollars roll in.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Read more of the thread and have more comments...

1. I would absolutely be concerned about lurkers on a public board like this. I never use the pseudonym that makes me money here. Ever. Lots of lurkers are great people, some are not and they can detonate a bunch of one stars all over your fledgling business when you least expect it. (Perhaps KB is too big and transient for folks to realize posts here are triggering problems for their books, but it is happening.)

2. This forum should be a starting point, not an ending point. Ideally authors should be developing private groups and networks. Use this board to scout new members and help newbies, but the more mature business stuff should be behind closed forums. One that weeds out non-participants on a regular basis.

2 is why you don't see me here very much. I direct people here, I lurk and post occasionally, but my business is conducted elsewhere.

Also, if anyone starts a group for the Fantasy writers, I am SO there.

M


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I dunno, lately I have felt it is about the BUILD. You build on each book to create an audience for yourself.

Everyone knows I have four pen names. I spent from October to last month building up one of them and dropped the other three. The first few books sold abysmally, maybe a copy a week. But I put a mailing list link at the end, and with each release, a few more people signed up. I think for my fifth book, I had five whopping subscribers. But guess what, the minute I sent an email, I had five sales. Five sales in a few hours means my ranking went up just enough that I caught a few more eyes, and sold a few more.

I ended up with about ten more sign ups.

Then I added a perma free. Then someone big listed my perma free. Then I got 15,000 downloads. Then I got 50 sign ups. In the midst of all that I busted my BUTT to get my new book out during the storm and instead of selling 5 on the first day, I sold 100. Being on the HNR, if only for a day or two, meant I had a steady seller in the 12K range for three weeks.

Now I can't wait for new releases. Maybe I won't hit it huge, but I'm set up for it to happen in the future.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> I dunno, lately I have felt it is about the BUILD. You build on each book to create an audience for yourself.
> 
> Everyone knows I have four pen names. I spent from October to last month building up one of them and dropped the other three. The first few books sold abysmally, maybe a copy a week. But I put a mailing list link at the end, and with each release, a few more people signed up. I think for my fifth book, I had five whopping subscribers. But guess what, the minute I sent an email, I had five sales. Five sales in a few hours means my ranking went up just enough that I caught a few more eyes, and sold a few more.
> 
> ...


This is what I call the 'math of success'. The numbers are on our side if we use them correctly. Mailing lists have incredible power and too few authors attempt to harness it.

When your mailing list gets bigger you'll not just hit HNR but the Top 100 _for every book you publish._ I have done that with my last two books.

The interesting thing...you can bring a book to a tipping point but you can't make it tip, readers have to jump on it to take it further. You can not game true success ime, but you can definitely make sure you are ready for it.

M


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Gee, I knew there was a reason why after 22 book and $0 expenditure, I've only sold 20,000. Money. Maybe I'll buy me Baker Street gang and increase those sales to . . . 20,001.  

This thread's become a hoot. A little injection of pencillin.

Edward C. Patterson
ala Miss Chatty


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## wolfrom (May 26, 2012)

Quiss said:


> we can even claim Neil Young


I won't allow that. Winnipeg gets Neil, because... well, you can't shake the Winnipeg out of people.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

Diana Gabrielle said:


> Thank you for the friendly welcomes! And hello to fellow lurkers!
> 
> Hi Anne! Thanks and no worries - I don't think you were offensive! I think I get what you mean.  I know I engaged your post directly but I really just wanted to offer, in a more tangential way, the perspective of a lurker - simply because it's easy to make assumptions about a group that rarely speaks for itself.
> 
> ...


oh, phew. that's a relief. i actually think my word choice of lurker was a bad one to begin with. i think lurkers have a genuine interest in the board and the posters, and that's TOTALLY cool. i loved getting your perspective. i'm sitting here trying to come up with a better word to define that particular person i'm talking about.

i want to add that my original comment was completely based on something an agent told me about one of her clients. i can't go into any details, but it def opened my eyes about the sharing of information.


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## teashopgirl (Dec 8, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> I dunno, lately I have felt it is about the BUILD. You build on each book to create an audience for yourself.
> 
> Everyone knows I have four pen names. I spent from October to last month building up one of them and dropped the other three. The first few books sold abysmally, maybe a copy a week. But I put a mailing list link at the end, and with each release, a few more people signed up. I think for my fifth book, I had five whopping subscribers. But guess what, the minute I sent an email, I had five sales. Five sales in a few hours means my ranking went up just enough that I caught a few more eyes, and sold a few more.
> 
> ...


I like this a lot. It kind of reminds me of the concept of compound interest. 

Also, I've been a thread lurker, and I'm outing myself. I don't have any secrets, I'm sorry.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

i so agree with vera about the money. when i first started pubbing my own stuff, i didn't spend a dime. not on covers, not on formatting, i just wasn't used to thinking that way. and my books DID NOT SELL. it was a slow, painful process of learning that i had to spend money in every area in order for the books to sell. and yeah, not talking so much about advertising, but cover design, etc.


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## CarlG (Sep 16, 2012)

Vera, thanks for your two posts on money. Very insightful, and I agree. I've spent plenty on my first book and am lavishing on my second now. But almost no time/money on promotion/marketing as of yet. There ain't been enough to go around! Not yet, anyway.

And so Texasgirl is correct also, I think. The build. 

If one has more money/time/energy the build can be quicker. Putting out books. Putting out the word. Otherwise, slow and steady wins the race, I guess.

Fascinating thread. Thanks all.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Gee, I knew there was a reason why after 22 book and $0 expenditure, I've only sold 20,000. Money.


We all know that not all ways work for all authors. Not sure why the sarcasm is warranted, especially that since know as well as anyone that advertising works or we wouldn't be inundated with it at every waking moment.

Something you do well, however, and that needs to be highlighted, is some authors' ability to plug themselves at every given opportunity. Tiresome as it is, that, too, is a way to make sales - _free_ advertising. I noted that in my thread when I mentioned artists in my town plastering posters and samples of their work everywhere so no one misses an opportunity to be told how awesome they are.


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## NathanHaleJefferson (Apr 3, 2013)

Only so may people can fit in a lifeboat until it overfills, capsizes and everyone drowns.  

Helping others and sharing info is a noble and good thing to do, but as stated in several other posts, if you kill the golden goose everyone loses. 

IMHO sharing incrementaly with friends or confidants is probably the best bet.   And yes, Joe writes 'prepper' books, has a strong background to back it up and writes good stories.  But in the past year or so the 'prepper' book market has been FLOODED by hundreds and hundreds of books.  

Most of these are self published, just like Joe's.  
Most (no really, I've done a non-scientific count and it's better than 50%!) are about a single topic, EMPs. 
Most have little or no marketing associated with them (save for a few blog writers who promote on their popular blog, ALA Capt. Rawles the #1 in the genre).
More books have been released in this genre in the past year (100's, close to 1000 or more soon) than all years previously combined.

I know a lot of people write for similarly saturated markets but at the end of the day a person can only read and buy so many books.  

*I* wouldn't share the secret far and wide until I've used it extensively and don't really need it anymore.   But I'm greedy so take it with a grain of salt.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Quiss said:


> We all know that not all ways work for all authors. Not sure why the sarcasm is warranted, especially that since know as well as anyone that advertising works or we wouldn't be inundated with it at every waking moment.
> 
> Something you do well, however, and that needs to be highlighted, is some authors' ability to plug themselves at every given opportunity. Tiresome as it is, that, too, is a way to make sales - _free_ advertising. I noted that in my thread when I mentioned artists in my town plastering posters and samples of their work everywhere so no one misses an opportunity to be told how awesome they are.


Not sarcasm, but sarcedottalism, being one of the high priestesses of the Indie spirit. We don't push books, we sell ourselves. But on that score, I learned a long time ago, as a forner Director of Marketing, books ain't peanut butter. You can't push 'em like jars of skippy. You need to swim with your readers and let them get to know you. Of course, it's a moot point with me, because I'm not in it for the moeny, but for the circulation. All I ever wanted was one reader per book - sharing myself with another hungry soul. As for the rest - as publishers we can kvetch over it. As authors we shoud "get busy and write another book," and since I'm aging rapidly and I want to match my younger colleague, Stephen King, I have at least 40 more books to get out. I better get crackin' and on my way out the door, grab that paste bucket, because there's another blank wall to cover. 

Edward C. Patterson
currenly listening to Mahler


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Well, I may not have any secrets, but I do have a tip. I think most everyone knows about this, but I get emails from other writers or other business people, and I don't see many using it.  Best of all, it is free.

Set up an automatic signature line on your personal email, that will link to well, anywhere you want it to go. Your website, author central, your book, etc.

If you are writing an email that is serious in tone, or an email to a business unrelated to writing, you can manually erase it off that particular email. I've gotten new pet reading clients from doing this. 

I'm afraid that's all I've got tip wise. Now, I have to go fix mine as it disappeared after a computer crash.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

NathanWrann said:


> You should post more often.


Haha, thanks!



Joe_Nobody said:


> I believe Joe (Joe K.) was correct at the time of his writing. Things have changed in the last year. In December of 2011, there were 17 prepper books released, as best we could count. In Dec of 2012, one of my guys stopped counting at 196. So I agree with his POV that preppers will want more books in their bailiwick as accurate...*until they are avalanched with choices*. One person can only read/afford so many books. I think that is what a lot of writers face and why the word "competitor" creeps into the mindset. If not competitor, at least a hint of "protectionism."


Right - but this speaks to the question of discoverability, which I sort of mentioned before (in that ad space is limited). I agree that in some way, being one voice among a crowd means that you do have to "fight" to be heard -- but if you imagine that there are many readers, each listening to multiple voices at once, over an indefinite period of time, and that these readers will always want more, and there will always be more (and new) readers, and more time and more books, then couldn't it be said that there's enough proverbial pie to go around? (I swear I'm done metaphor-ing!) 

Maybe there are a few voices that are never heard, and a few that are heard by everyone, but in the middle I imagine everyone's on a pretty level playing field. (I lied!) Admittedly, I'm thinking on a macro level, and I agree that money IS a big factor, but it seems like the major issue is being able to target YOUR subset of readers. In that I think very few authors are in direct competition, and even then might benefit more by helping each other, sharing readers, cross-promotion, etc. I see this happening a lot in the New Adult genre. (ETA: Recently there was that thread about the "What to read after 50 shades" Facebook group. A lot of writers - like Maya Cross, up-thread - are seeing success in these categories, and perhaps it's because readers can find them due to efforts like this. These are hugely popular categories, but the authors aren't competing.)

I guess I'm (genuinely) asking: is discoverability zero-sum? Is there really only room for a certain percentage of writers to be "discovered"? And I don't mean discovered in the meteoric, bestseller sense. I am referring to a writer being found and read by his or her designated audience. (Designated audience, of course, looks different to everyone - which is important when measuring success.)

This might be different with nonfiction, where it can be argued that once a reader finds the information he needs, s/he stops looking. Joe - do you feel protective of your turf in relation to authors of other prepper fiction, as opposed to nonfiction?

This is a really interesting thread! Glad I jumped in.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Maybe if people could find more of what they actually wanted to read, they would read more.
Maybe if people could find more of what they actually wanted to read, more people would read.

How can reading be a zero sum game when new readers can be created?

B.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I think it's the right combination of all these things you guys list. It's support from other authors, some bigger, some smaller. It's bloggers who trust your work and will put you on the schedule no matter what. It's releasing things quickly, it's writing quality stories, it's marketing what you have and yes, taking out ads at the right time.

My friend, LP Dover (if you're reading this Leslie, hello!  ) just gave away almost 60,000 *SIXTY THOUSAND books* during her BookBub ad Free Day last week. She was number one in the Free Kindle Store. Not romance, the whole freaking Kindle store.

Whatever she did leading up to this ad, worked. This was her time to really take advantage of that ad. And you can call that luck or money, she probably had both, but she also had a history of putting out books with beautiful covers that people wanted to read.

Only a certain number of writers can be discovered _at any one time_. But the cool thing about time is that it's constantly ticking on. There is always the next minute to try for.

But honestly, my number one tip for becoming "successful" is to market yourself, not your book. Make friends with other authors, with bloggers, with website owners who have influence (Harvey!  ) and with readers who liked your books in the past, or even if they didn't really like it, maybe they like you enough to take another chance.

I have a few like this I'm sure. Ladies who visit me regularly on the blog, they like interacting with me and reading my posts and reviews, but they're just not interested in what I'm writing right now. But you can bet if I did put out something they ARE interested in, they're gonna pick it up.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> I dunno, lately I have felt it is about the BUILD. You build on each book to create an audience for yourself.
> 
> Everyone knows I have four pen names. I spent from October to last month building up one of them and dropped the other three. The first few books sold abysmally, maybe a copy a week. But I put a mailing list link at the end, and with each release, a few more people signed up. I think for my fifth book, I had five whopping subscribers. But guess what, the minute I sent an email, I had five sales. Five sales in a few hours means my ranking went up just enough that I caught a few more eyes, and sold a few more.
> 
> ...


Definitely agree with this. Its all about steady progress. Once you reach a point where you are big enough, the books will grow themselves more due to exposure with the algorithms, word of mouth, etc., but until that point, a lot of the pushing has to come from the author / publisher.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

CarlG said:


> Vera, thanks for your two posts on money. Very insightful, and I agree. I've spent plenty on my first book and am lavishing on my second now. But almost no time/money on promotion/marketing as of yet. There ain't been enough to go around! Not yet, anyway.
> 
> And so Texasgirl is correct also, I think. The build.
> 
> ...


Thanks, CarlG -- and also Quiss, Anne Frasier, and the rest of you -- glad to add more variables to consider for us. And I definitely agree with Texasgirl about the Built which is what we are all working on, but the Built is the *process* itself, and what makes the process happen are **resources** (substituting that for the distasteful word *money*)

And Edward C. Patterson -- believe me, this is not in any way intended to downplay your unique success, your talent, your dedication, or the quality of your work -- but just consider for a moment, and take an objective look back at *all the cumulative things you did* in the process of releasing your 22 books. Were they really "free" and not costing you even your own personal time and mega-effort? Especially, since, as a former Director of Marketing, you know how much resource allocation went into your success, how much marketing really costs.... Or, were you not getting paid when in this line of work? *friendly grin*

In any case, good luck to all of us, we are ALL swimming upstream, constantly and relentlessly, and may we all have as many resources as possible to "throw at" our books.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

NathanHaleJefferson said:


> And yes, Joe writes 'prepper' books,
> 
> Most (no really, I've done a non-scientific count and it's better than 50%!) are about a single topic, EMPs.


Okay, Nathan, I'll bite. What's a prepper book, and what are EMPs?


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## Anotherdreamer (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm sure he'll explain better, but it's for people who want to prepare for devastating events. EMP is electro magnetic pulse. Every see the Matrix? It was the thing that knocked out the machines.


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## summerdaniels71 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Okay, Nathan, I'll bite. What's a prepper book, and what are EMPs?


I don't know the answer but I'm willing to wager a guess that prepper means something like those who prepare for the end of civilization in some fashion and that EMP means electro-magnetic pulse ... destroying the electronics and plunging society back into the stone age. Theoretically ...


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## NathanHaleJefferson (Apr 3, 2013)

Yup, the two previous posts nailed it.  EMP is electro magnetic pulse, it's a side effect of a nuclear blast or from the earth being in the path of a strong solar storm.

In theory it would knock out a large portion of a countries electronic capabilities.  

It is a neat subject but when over half of books in the genre are all about the same topic it gets a little repetitive.  Not to mention that out of the ones I've read (~12) they all way overestimate the effects and discard large amounts of readily available research that is out there that show what would really happen.  I think it is just easier to instantly turn a switch and have the whole world go back to the 'dark ages', but in reality it would be considerably different.

And as far as a 'prepper' book, it is a book targeted at those who watch shows like Doomsday Preppers on NatGeo or regularly visit survivalblog.com


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Those are page visits, not unique visitors. Probably a dozen of them are mine.


*refresh*

*refresh*

*refresh* X 350


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Vera Nazarian said:


> And Edward C. Patterson -- believe me, this is not in any way intended to downplay your unique success, your talent, your dedication, or the quality of your work -- but just consider for a moment, and take an objective look back at *all the cumulative things you did* in the process of releasing your 22 books. Were they really "free" and not costing you even your own personal time and mega-effort? Especially, since, as a former Director of Marketing, you know how much resource allocation went into your success, how much marketing really costs.... Or, were you not getting paid when in this line of work? *friendly grin*


Time is a gift we usually squander, but in this case, I lost that Director of Marketing job and was given the gift of FREE time (you'd argue it wasn't free), but I decided, after 50 years of writing to undertake the ENTERPRISE, which today is 2104 days old, and that was to learn and assume the role of publisher and help fire the INDIE revolution. Now Indies are not pariahs, but 2104 days ago, we were. But I am of a constitution to face such things. Being a former closeted Gay citizen, I've known this frustration all my life. 2104 days ago not one state had same-sex marriage. So there is always a cost, but my degrees are in History, and looking backward and evaluating is more than a habit and reminding others of there roots is a full time pursuit. The secret of marketing a book has nothing to do with tricks or silence or forensics. It's patience and the self-awareness that your\ might have touched someone else, and will (may) do so long after we've walked away from the enterprise. Authoring is a lonely joy shared by all who truly author. It's filled with doubt and the frustration of criticism, both overt and extravert. But when those children (our characters) come to life in the Zone (if we're truly pantsters and not anchor-ridden outliners), they help with the creation and, if they're a quality creation, they're a significant element in the marketing process. My expectations were confined to giving my book away, which 2112 days ago I couldn't do at noon on 34th Street in Macy's window. But then came a reader - a quiet, anonymous soul, who 2104 days ago bought one of my books and the dialogue began. My people (the Cherokee) call writing "leaves on the wind" because we view it as a method of preserving beyond the _mot,_ the thoughts and memories and visions from those two hemispheres between our ears, and allowing them to float into the unknown and the untrackable. Still, as human wikis, we need to track it and indeed I have as a passion there. So you have confused two words - FREE and COST. Nothing is free, although its rewards can be endless, while COST can be avoided, but when it happens, it's investment might be short-lived.

Well, I just got out of bed and my thought process hasn't really fired up yet, but I thought I'd contribute some near-waking ideas and experiences as I start this, my 28,118th day. 

Edward C. Patterson
Off to do the 1st lap of my 3 miles a day (walking - I've hated running since my Army days)
"If you have experiences to share and the imagination to bind them, you can avoid potboiling fad-genres The public consumes what they might, but true readers consume what they may."


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## wolfrom (May 26, 2012)

NathanHaleJefferson said:


> And as far as a 'prepper' book, it is a book targeted at those who watch shows like Doomsday Preppers on NatGeo or regularly visit survivalblog.com


I always worry about categorizing preppers, since it really is a scale. I'd call it the Crazy/Prepared scale, similar to the infamous Crazy/Hot Scale from How I Met Your Mother. A good prepper is low on crazy and high on prepared, of course.

I'm not crazy, and I'm not prepared, but I'm certainly aware enough of survival issues that I'd consider myself a prepper of sorts... or a prepper wannabe. But some preppers don't seem to take well to my post-apocalyptic book. I think maybe it's because most of my preppers are the bad guys.


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## NathanHaleJefferson (Apr 3, 2013)

wolfrom said:


> I always worry about categorizing preppers, since it really is a scale. I'd call it the Crazy/Prepared scale, similar to the infamous Crazy/Hot Scale from How I Met Your Mother. A good prepper is low on crazy and high on prepared, of course.
> 
> I'm not crazy, and I'm not prepared, but I'm certainly aware enough of survival issues that I'd consider myself a prepper of sorts... or a prepper wannabe. But some preppers don't seem to take well to my post-apocalyptic book. I think maybe it's because most of my preppers are the bad guys.


Yeah, I don't even like my own description, I just used it because it was easy to do and I'm lazy .

FWIW, from all of my observations there is a divergent audience for dystopian/apocalypse and survival/prepper/apocalypse. The former seems to be younger men and women from late teens to early thirties, think of the people that read The Hunger Games. The latter is mostly comprised of women who are mothers in their late 30's to mid 50's, think of people who go to church regularly and will thumbs down a book for having a few swear words in it. I think it would be very hard to sell a book to both crowds at the same time.


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## wolfrom (May 26, 2012)

NathanHaleJefferson said:


> FWIW, from all of my observations there is a divergent audience for dystopian/apocalypse and survival/prepper/apocalypse. The former seems to be younger men and women from late teens to early thirties, think of the people that read The Hunger Games. The latter is mostly comprised of women who are mothers in their late 30's to mid 50's, think of people who go to church regularly and will thumbs down a book for having a few swear words in it. I think it would be very hard to sell a book to both crowds at the same time.


I have learned (and been burned) by this very thing.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

wolfrom said:


> I have learned (and been burned) by this very thing.


No swearing in my apocalypse!

Oh no, that building is coming down on us! Fudge!

I'm dying, Bert. You have to swear to me... Whatever you do... You'll get those hufferpuffers.

What in the frog is that? It's a comet! Run for your lives!!!

And other assortments of a non-offensive end of the world experience....... Sometimes I wonder if people realize just how bad things will get if the world actually ends. It's not going to be a Kevin Costner movie....


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## DCBourone (Sep 10, 2012)

Referencing only the economics--

Helping others succeed should have minimal/marginal impact if they
are writing in different/non-competing genres.

Some chance helping an author in a similar genre could elevate both--
the equivalent of "branding," or creating a searchable discrete identity.

We don't know how the market for e-readers worldwide increases relative
to the number of titles.

Suspect the deluge of titles will continue, and the comments relative to number
of new prepper books supports this.

Not new information, just the same information on a new day:

Have seen some really excellent writers here, with low sales.  A shared attribute
of their non-success is very limited searchability/genre recognition, therefore
they are intrinsically difficult to market under the best circumstances.

Not remotely close to 'good enough' to just write good books.

Clever/innovative/persistent marketing will become more important, not less.

Quel drag.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

NathanHaleJefferson said:


> FWIW, from all of my observations there is a divergent audience for dystopian/apocalypse and survival/prepper/apocalypse. The former seems to be younger men and women from late teens to early thirties


I sometimes think it'd be great fun to take the romance out of dystopia by having the young'uns spend a week without power in their home. Or go on a four-day hike with only one backpack. That'll show'em.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Genre plays into marketing big time. I am a cross-genre author - which means non-genre at all. I noticed if you have a vampire, a dragon, a zombie, some shades of sex (gray, pink or otherwise), a sexy man cover and other such attractions, you stand a better chance to sell in the here and now - no prophesying for the future. My books a diverse, can't be conveniently tucked into any genre (therefore can be marketed in several genres), are sensual, but I always go into the quadrangle zone when it comes to explicit sex (which helps market gay-themed books to straight readers), and, although I have species of vampire bunny rabbits in my utopian/dystopian world of my latest release, it would be profitable to roll the dice at the market's clarion call. But the first reader I must please is ME, and since I read Dickens, Austen, Melville, King, Shakespeare and Twain, most of what's out there is white noise (with some major exceptions). Even my whodunnit book, fans tell me they didn't know it was a mystery story until 3/4rd in, thinking it was a gay-themed/romance/coming-of-age/pop-culture/city/beach/whaling story. So I market it in all thouse categories - the whaling category is pretty tough, I must admit.

Edward C. Patterson


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Time is a gift we usually squander, but in this case, I lost that Director of Marketing job and was given the gift of FREE time (you'd argue it wasn't free), but I decided, after 50 years of writing to undertake the ENTERPRISE, which today is 2104 days old, and that was to learn and assume the role of publisher and help fire the INDIE revolution. Now Indies are not pariahs, but 2104 days ago, we were. But I am of a constitution to face such things. Being a former closeted Gay citizen, I've known this frustration all my life. 2104 days ago not one state had same-sex marriage. So there is always a cost, but my degrees are in History, and looking backward and evaluating is more than a habit and reminding others of there roots is a full time pursuit. The secret of marketing a book has nothing to do with tricks or silence or forensics. It's patience and the self-awareness that your\ might have touched someone else, and will (may) do so long after we've walked away from the enterprise. Authoring is a lonely joy shared by all who truly author. It's filled with doubt and the frustration of criticism, both overt and extravert. But when those children (our characters) come to life in the Zone (if we're truly pantsters and not anchor-ridden outliners), they help with the creation and, if they're a quality creation, they're a significant element in the marketing process. My expectations were confined to giving my book away, which 2112 days ago I couldn't do at noon on 34th Street in Macy's window. But then came a reader - a quiet, anonymous soul, who 2104 days ago bought one of my books and the dialogue began. My people (the Cherokee) call writing "leaves on the wind" because we view it as a method of preserving beyond the _mot,_ the thoughts and memories and visions from those two hemispheres between our ears, and allowing them to float into the unknown and the untrackable. Still, as human wikis, we need to track it and indeed I have as a passion there. So you have confused two words - FREE and COST. Nothing is free, although its rewards can be endless, while COST can be avoided, but when it happens, it's investment might be short-lived.
> 
> Well, I just got out of bed and my thought process hasn't really fired up yet, but I thought I'd contribute some near-waking ideas and experiences as I start this, my 28,118th day.
> 
> ...


This is lovely and inspiring. Thank you for sharing.

I had a review come in the other day on one of my novels that said this: _"Couldn't put it down once I started to read it. Excellent bed scenes. Seems anymore the authors want to devote 3 to 5 pages on bed scenes with very explicit details. I highly recommend this book. Keeps your interest right to the end. Good job Katherine Owen."_

That review made my day and took away this growing angst I was feeling; because I was indeed contemplating dialing up those types of scenes in the NA novel I'm working on. Why? Because so many writers are going in that direction right now. But to chase a trend and compromise the writing in that way? (_It's not my horse_ as one of PR directors used to say.) This review was a great reminder that I need to stay right where I'm at "in this lane" and I thought of it as I read your post reminding us that it's all about the reader--that one reader. _So, thank you._

Lastly, I especially loved this line in your thought process: "_...The secret of marketing a book has nothing to do with tricks or silence or forensics. It's patience and the self-awareness that your\ might have touched someone else, and will (may) do so long after we've walked away from the enterprise. Authoring is a lonely joy shared by all who truly author. It's filled with doubt and the frustration of criticism, both overt and extravert. But when those children (our characters) come to life in the Zone (if we're truly pantsters and not anchor-ridden outliners), they help with the creation and, if they're a quality creation, they're a significant element in the marketing process..." _ #loveit!


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Let's say you stumbled across a book marketing service/trick that was very cost effective. Something along the lines of ENT or such, but you didn't see very many writers using it.
> 
> Would you:
> 
> ...


a. So are you going to tell us what it is?
Or are you going to be b. or c. or end up being e?


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

d. might work, but you have to play your cards well!


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> Sometimes I wonder if people realize just how bad things will get if the world actually ends. It's not going to be a Kevin Costner movie....


I hope it's not that bad!


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

wilsonharp said:


> I hope it's not that bad!


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> Sometimes I wonder if people realize just how bad things will get if the world actually ends. It's not going to be a Kevin Costner movie....


I read _The Road_. 
So, here's to hoping for a HEA, because... DAMN!


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## George Hamilton (Dec 14, 2010)

Could you swap the answers for A and D so that I can say BAD!


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

More on preppers...

Actually, there are four primary classes of preppers:

a. Those that are radical and want the S to hit the fan, often called Anarchist. These are mostly nut-jobs and shunned by the average prepper.
b. There are "survivalist" who learn skills to live until rescued, normally in remote areas for a few days. These are the guys you see on TV like Bear Grylls. 
c. Those who prepare for a short term existence without the amenities of modern society, like hurricanes and earthquakes.
d. Those who believe an economic, natural disaster, plague, or war could cause society to collapse. We don't want it to happen, but think there is a small possibility. 

I'm somewhere between b and d. Most people who live along the gulf coast have a hurricane bag. Millions of us have generators. After Rita, my home was without electricity for 14 days. I was boiling the neighbor's pool water to drink and cook.

Preppers are the largest single growing segment in North American society, according to the producers at NatGeo. It is estimated that there are over 10 million of us. We believe strongly in self-reliance. Gardens, woodscraft, harvesting natural foods and medicines...not depending on anyone or anything, esp the government. The television show, Doomsday Preppers, is hated by almost all of us. It's insulting, really. I've been asked to be on the show three times and said no.

Real Preppers are some of the happiest people I've ever met. They are very secure because they trust in themselves and don't rely on anyone else.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> More on preppers...
> 
> Actually, there are four primary classes of preppers:
> 
> ...


I posted about this before so apologies to those that have to reread it. I have survived multiple natural disasters including tornadoes, getting rescued off a rooftop during epic flooding, wildfires, hurricanes, relationship breakups, etc... sometimes resulting in losing all my possessions. My advice is to be prepared -- by reducing your material footprint and dependence on material items. Get yourself a _bug out_ bag and you can start over with minimal discomfort. As long as you physically survive your disaster -- that's what's important. As a writer, I am super happy now that I have digital storage in the cloud.


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## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Let's say you stumbled across a book marketing service/trick that was very cost effective. Something along the lines of ENT or such, but you didn't see very many writers using it.
> 
> Would you:
> 
> ...


You mean like pretending the Chinese were so upset at something you wrote that they launched a digital attack and then trying to stir up controversy around that without the slightest piece of evidence being put forward?


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

mathewferguson said:


> You mean like pretending the Chinese were so upset at something you wrote that they launched a digital attack and then trying to stir up controversy around that without the slightest piece of evidence being put forward?


I don't know what your issue is, but coming at me like that isn't wise, friend. I take the word "pretending" to be that you're calling me a liar, and where I'm from that's taken seriously.
What's got your panties in a wad?


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## 28612 (Dec 7, 2010)

Diana Gabrielle said:


> Is there really only room for a certain percentage of writers to be "discovered"? And I don't mean discovered in the meteoric, bestseller sense. I am referring to a writer being found and read by his or her designated audience. (Designated audience, of course, looks different to everyone - which is important when measuring success.)


The other factor in this is time (as in duration.) It's one of the great things with ebooks. Once they're out there, they can stay there, and be ready for whenever their audience moseys around to finding them.

But waiting for that can be very difficult for the authors -- financially and emotionally.

OTOH, a more slow and steady process of being "discovered" can be more durable than a meteoric rise. My first book was trad pubbed in 1990. I remember being at a conference not long after and the question was asked of a roomful of published authors if they'd rather have a.) a solitary mega bestseller that would set them up financially for life, and they wouldn't write another book or b.) a plodding career of many books (that they enjoyed) that would allow them to make a living if they were careful.

I was shocked that ~anyone~ would choose a.) But maybe 40 percent did. And of course there's a continuum between a) and b) and beyond b).

The a's will no doubt see it as more of a zero sum game, because it not just how much they are discovered, it's that it happens now, with this book. The b's and beyond might like to have a big bang, but wouldn't give up writing their way all along the Long Tail for it.

... Boy, this meandered away from your point, I fear... Oh, well, being a true b), I got satisfaction from writing it ;-)


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Victoria Champion said:


> As a writer, I am super happy now that I have digital storage in the cloud.


Online storage is the LEAST secure way of backing up your stuff. Everything on the cloud is controlled (at least as far as final say is concerned) by the webhost. If that is attacked or taken down, there goes all of your stuff. Much better to store it OFFLINE, in as many off-site places as you can (not just your home).


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I don't know what your issue is, but coming at me like that isn't wise, friend. I take the word "pretending" to be that you're calling me a liar, and where I'm from that's taken seriously.
> What's got your panties in a wad?


Wait, so people are saying that didn't actually happen?


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Patricia McLinn said:


> The other factor in this is time (as in duration.) It's one of the great things with ebooks. Once they're out there, they can stay there, and be ready for whenever their audience moseys around to finding them.
> 
> But waiting for that can be very difficult for the authors -- financially and emotionally.


I agree completely! Time is on our side. Enough, at least, that writers don't have to be pitted against one another in competition. Still, it's hard to stop thinking in those terms, because we writers like to compare ourselves to others.

I'd fall into camp "b" too -- this is just an impression, but it seems like that type of success might be more enduring.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

let's keep the tone civil in this thread.

Thanks,

Betsy
KBoards Moderator


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