# Erotica Authors Help... Dreaded "ADULT" Dungeon



## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

*UPDATE 7:29PM 5/9/2013: I just got an email saying that the search restrictions were lifted. I'm guessing it happened earlier today because my two sales so far this month jumped to six sales. I'm assuming that "breeding" cannot be in the title or on the cover. Once again, all my erotica authors, search your titles and deal with this issue ASAP!*

I've dealt with the "ADULT" dungeon before with a book I've since unpublished. Happy I caught this when I did. It's funny because I was reading Selena Kitt's blog about this very issue. My title, Twelve Rounds, was published back on Dec. 3 last year and averaged 80-100 sales a month @ $2.99. Earned me a pretty little penny for a collection of shorts. Well, on the 5th I noticed that it only had 1 sale. At first I thought I was hitting the summer slump but I went and checked.

FYI, if you want to check to see if any of your books are in the "ADULT" dungeon go here and simply type in your name. All your titles will come up and any that are in the dungeon will have "ADULT" in read to the right of the title. Amazon does not tell you when your book is moved. This matters because when it is in the dungeon it no longer appears in general searches or in "also bought" sections unless the book you are looking at is also in the "ADULT" dungeon.

http://www.salesrankexpress.com/

So, I'm guessing the imprisonment happened on the 29th of April, when my ranking took a nose dive. I made some changes to the content, cover and took out the word "breed" from both. Hopefully that is enough. I checked today and saw that two more of my titles, the latest ones at $0.99, were in the ADULT dungeon. They were selling extremely well and would have earned me like $60 or $70 bucks each this month had they not ground to a halt in sales. So, with them the only thing I noticed was the phrase "one-handed read" in the description and specific listings of sex acts in the short stories. Those were removed and I shot Amazon an email.

I plan on making changes and emailing until my books are released. With what I have now, I was on track to making $1,200 this month under my Gavin ML Fletcher pen name, now, it looks like $850-$900. That's $300 I can spend on the Disney Land trip in June with the Family. It matters...

Erotica writers beware, now might be a good time to check you titles. Selena Kitt has more on this persistent issue here: http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.php/2013/04/30/survival-tips-for-the-pornocalypse-erotica-writers-get-armed-and-ready/

If you want, list your book that has been labeled "ADULT" and maybe we can make suggestions to help you make changes to get it out of prison...


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> This matters because when it is in the dungeon it no longer appears in general searches or in "also bought" sections unless the book you are looking at is also in the "ADULT" dungeon.


It also (in my case, at least) moves the "adult" book to the very end of your search results if you search your name in the Kindle store, behind your own books and behind any that have gotten linked to your name via alsobots. This means that if you search on my name, my "adult" book shows up listed after fifty others, even though it's one of my newest releases. It's not surprising people don't find it very readily.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

If authors don't put at least some acts in the description out of fear that their book will be banned, how will readers find the books they want? If you can't put descriptive text in the title, description or keywords, what's a writer to do then? Erotica and Erotic Romance is full of extremes and kinks and niches.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> You've got "erotica" in the title. It seems that may be a new "trigger" word.


Is it okay to put "erotic romance" in parentheses, or is this getting put behind the adult filter too?



> If authors don't put at least some acts in the description out of fear that their book will be banned, how will readers find the books they want? If you can't put descriptive text in the title, description or keywords, what's a writer to do then?


It does seem pretty much like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you can't list anything specific that readers look for, you'll lose readers. But if Amazon hides your book, you'll also lose readers.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Umm, so you write porn, ahem erotica, and then don't like being labelled as such? What am I not getting?


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Umm, so you write porn, ahem erotica, and then don't like being labelled as such? What am I not getting?


We have been labeling it as such. That's the point. Most of us carefully label our stuff with warnings, both so people can find it AND people can avoid it. The problem is that it's getting filtered in a really backhanded sort of way-- you can't even find out that it's in the "dungeon" unless you check an entirely different site. It's not at all clear what the guidelines are for the "dungeon," or why books are filtered, and being filtered has a number of bad effects on your visibility in the store, as mentioned above. I wouldn't mind Amazon marking every adult book ADULT. But it's annoying to me to have a single book put at the end of my search results for some capricious and non-evident reason. It's also annoying to have it applied to indies but not to, say, _50 Shades of Gray_ and _Bared to You_. If Amazon wants to filter out adult content unless you click that you want to read adult stuff, then they should go ahead and do so, and make it clear that they're doing so. Right now it's capricious at best, and not especially useful to anyone, so far as I can see.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Umm, so you write porn, ahem erotica, and then don't like being labelled as such? What am I not getting?


The thing is that Amazon has never been transparent on what they constitute as "porn." For a long time the only things that got you smacked with ADULT (which pretty much kills your visibility, as Amazon is also not transparent to readers-only that this goes on and thus when they search for a certain kink or whatever in general search, a lot of titles are not showing up) was nudity/sex acts on covers, extreme kinks such as PI, dubcon, and a couple others, and in some cases having a very explicit title. In the past couple of weeks they have started going through and basically ADULT-branding even vanilla books with fully clothed covers and no kinks (unless just sex is a kink.) This is killing sales across the board, but amazon won't chalk up to what they're doing, why they're doing it, or how they're doing it. Of course, they don't have to. But they're also not telling readers of erotica that this is going on. There's no "adult" toggle like there is on Smashwords.

There are also cases of sweet romances getting blocked, which may include LGBT main characters (sound familiar, Amazon?), sub-dom relationships (without any graphic sex though) and even some just sweet romances of the incredibly vanilla variety. Of course, books by big trad publishers like EL James and Sylvia DAy have not been blocked, when other BDSM titles with item-covers have been right out the gate.

The other major, major problem to this all is that it seems to be completely random in who they're blocking. It looks systematic, but it doesn't turn out to be so. It's a huge mess for erotica writers right now, especially those who do it to make a living. (Like me.) The problem isn't so much an Adult filter - a setup like Smashword's where you can toggle it on and off is nice - the problem is that Amazon doesn't provide any guidelines as to what goes in it, doesn't tell anyone about it (you only find out via meta dumps like via SRE) or how to USE it effectively for their shopping or marketing experiences, and seems to use it arbitrarily. I think the arbitrariness and the severe lack of transparency are what make this such a big mess.

ETA: Ninja'd by Meg!


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> The problem isn't so much an Adult filter - a setup like Smashword's where you can toggle it on and off is nice -


Right, and the fact that you can't toggle it on again is a problem. Looking at bestsellers on Amazon, it's clear that there's a huge audience for BDSM, LGBT erotica, and so forth. Hiding the books from everyone doesn't make any sense-- how are the people who want to read it supposed to find it? Why not just label all erotica and erotic romance "adult" and allow people to choose whether or not they want to see it? Alternatively, if they don't want people seeing it at all, they just need to stop carrying it. That would, of course, necessarily mean excluding 50 Shades.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Oh, and I am loving your covers. I'm going to be writing under a couple of pen names and writing some straight erotica and erotic romances. Any cover designer you want to recommend


Thank you. Most of the covers in my sig are by CarolCover's Designs; two are by Ebook Indie Covers; and one is by Littera Book Designs. They all do great work.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I just saw in your description:



> WARNING: This 22,000 word (63 pages) collection of gay erotic short stories contains very graphic depictions of black and Hispanic boxers participating in gay sex without condoms. Twelve Rounds is intended for adults only. It is not a romance. Anything resembling a plot or character depth is simply incidental to the sex. Reader discretion is advised.


Isn't that adult? You even warn it's for "adults only". Is the adult dungeon different than the erotica category? Just curious.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Alan Petersen said:


> I just saw in your description:
> 
> Isn't that adult? You even warn it's for "adults only". Is the adult dungeon different than the erotica category? Just curious.


But being labeled ADULT at Amazon, versus just erotica or erotic romance, is a bad thing. It excludes your book from also-boughts and hides your title within the site.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Daizie said:


> But being labeled ADULT at Amazon, versus just erotica or erotic romance, is a bad thing. It excludes your book from also-boughts and hides your title within the site.


I see. I didn't realize that were such ramifications over being labeled as adult. I understand now. Thanks.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

PLEASE someone create the biggest, _bestest_ erotica ebook store ever so we can all migrate our stuff there. There's obviously a big readership, and if Amazon, Apple or whoever else doesn't want to accept its money, there needs to be a store that will.

If I had the time I'd make it myself. I know there's a helluva lot of money in erotica.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> PLEASE someone create the biggest, bestest erotica ebook store ever so we can all migrate our stuff there.


I wish someone would. There is definitely money to be made. I think, though, that one of the stumbling blocks is probably PayPal.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

1001nightspress said:


> I've only had one there, and it was over a cover (bare bum). I changed the cover, and emailed Amazon to ask if they'd re-evaluate it, and they removed the 'adult' categorization. Sales for that one never recovered, though.


No the sales don't recover. You lose your place in line and the book sinks. You need to relaunch filtered titles assuming you can sanitize them enough to dodge the filter and still be specific enough about the story to sell it to readers.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> PLEASE someone create the biggest, _bestest_ erotica ebook store ever so we can all migrate our stuff there. There's obviously a big readership, and if Amazon, Apple or whoever else doesn't want to accept its money, there needs to be a store that will.
> 
> If I had the time I'd make it myself. I know there's a helluva lot of money in erotica.


I think Selena Kitt is going to take a stab at it. She posted something on her FB.

Also... for those writers in other genres wondering why they should care about that dirty filthy erotica...

Just FYI...it's 99% indie titles being segregated. Publisher books are not being hidden. There are a few cases where books in other genres have been filtered as well, although it's not as widespread. This happened last time. Everyone thinks this is a moral or sex issue when it's much bigger than that.

It's a horrible business practice that largely benefits traditionally published books at the expense of indies and the lack of disclosure to readers means consumers are prevented from finding books they want to read.

But don't worry sex toys still come up in general search along with Fifty Shades of Grey. It's just those amoral filthy pervert indies who've been purged.

Thank god for my other pen names.

M


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I think Selena Kitt is going to take a stab at it.


There's no one who understands the erotica market better than she does. I'd love to see her do it.


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I can't say I'm surprised to hear this, since the US generally is so mixed up about sexual matters. But I'm sorry to hear it nonetheless. If there's anything the rest of us can do to help, please let us know.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

mrv01d said:


> I think Selena Kitt is going to take a stab at it. She posted something on her FB.
> 
> Also... for those writers in other genres wondering why they should care about that dirty filthy erotica...
> 
> ...


This. When something like this happens it's never just about one thing; there's almost always something more sinister beneath it.

Great news about Selena Kitt, though. A big name like that behind it is exactly what a new business needs. With regards to Paypal (I despise this company more than I can put into words) she should look into Google Checkout instead. I mean, Google's a name people (at least kinda) trust, and I think their cut is 10% of all transactions. It's workable.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> This. When something like this happens it's never just about one thing; there's almost always something more sinister beneath it.
> 
> Great news about Selena Kitt, though. A big name like that behind it is exactly what a new business needs. With regards to Paypal (I despise this company more than I can put into words) she should look into Google Checkout instead. I mean, Google's a name people (at least kinda) trust, and I think their cut is 10% of all transactions. It's workable.


Google Checkout has a "Contravene public morality" clause which could lead to Paypal/Smashwords type headaches. All these payment processors have very similar policies, PayPal is the biggest so they get most of the hate. Traffic is what's key. The best erotica ebook store without traffic won't do anything so if someone sets this up they would need to have deep pockets to get the traffic needed to make a profit.

But I'm sure the people working on it know that, so exciting to see if they can pull it off.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Nook UK seems to be removing erotica titles from their store entirely, never mind making them hard to find.

Needless to say 50 Shades and Crossfire are still there. They'd lose too much money if they removed them.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

portiadacosta said:


> Nook UK seems to be removing erotica titles from their store entirely, never mind making them hard to find.
> 
> Needless to say 50 Shades and Crossfire are still there. They'd lose too much money if they removed them.


BN has been hiding erotica as well. They have a history of demoting indies who rank too high.

M


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> The problem with this is that when it's been filtered, even if someone knows EXACTLY the book they want to buy, they type in the EXACT title on the homepage of Amazon, and the title doesn't show up. As if it doesn't exist. That's the problem.
> 
> Edited: Because it sounds like I totally know what I'm talking about here, when I should actually have added "at least that's what I've read."  So if anyone knows different, I would appreciate being corrected.


Correct AND you lose all your also bots. It is a death sentence for a book. It is very difficult to recover earnings.

This current round of filtering is so broad that I think readers will change search patterns which will limit the damage. I hope.

On the flip side writers used to toe the line to avoid the filter. Now there is no incentive to do so, which means nudity and overt marketing of taboo fiction. I suspect Amazon may regret removing the incentive to keep the marketing fairly clean and we may see them resort to blocking books to try and control things. This is very likely to backfire on them.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

People will seek these books out if they don't find what they're looking for. Amazon is the big dog right now, and they will probably stay the big dog in erotica for a while. But if you want certain kinds of erotica and they don't offer what you're looking for, readers _will_ look elsewhere.

It's too bad that Amazon is so restrictive. Lots of books are getting outright banned, and apparently others are being "dungeoned". Oh well.

I also saw that Selena Kitt is talking about creating an erotica portal. I'm very excited by that!


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## Harry Dewulf (Oct 4, 2010)

Just like the Hays Code, this is not about categorization nor is it about avoiding causing offence or avoiding lawsuits. It's about control. Most, if not all, of what is done in the name of "public decency" is intended to shame people, and thereby curb their freedom. There exists a noisy minority who like to seize control by claiming they have been offended, and retailers see that they can seize control pre-emptively in the name of avoiding causing offence. This kind of nonsense should not be fought, of course. Fighting it validates it. It should be ignored.


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## Anjasa (Feb 4, 2012)

I'd be fine with an adult filter, like smashwords or ebay, where you can change in your settings if you want to see erotic titles or not. Hopefully not too much like ebay, though, where you have to turn it on every browsing session.

It's frustrating, because if you search one of my books, exactly, you will not find it. Even if you search under books, it will be ranked lower than other books of different titles.

Take "A Son's Devotion" which, yes, it has a lot of very taboo themes and kinks and no, I don't mind it not being available to kids.

This is the general search results.

This is the Kindle ebooks results.

A Son's Devotion is the very last result in all of Kindle eBooks.

It's on page 3 of books.

Now if you were a reader, wouldn't you be annoyed if you were looking for this book and you had to jump through all these hoops? I don't want kids finding or purchasing our books, but as a childfree couple, we have no need to have Amazon protect us from erotica. If I'm searching for certain kinks, I don't want to shuffle through 10 pages of irrelevant books. I'm an author so I know that I need to click erotica to find the titles, but not all readers do. There needs to be some transparency about it, and I think that's all us erotic authors want.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> We reserve the right to make judgments about whether or not content is appropriate; this can include the cover image or the content within the book. We have found your Kindle book contains mature content and it will not surface in our general product search results.


This is exactly the same answer they gave me a while back. I first thought they filtered my book because it was showing too much boob, so I bought a new cover and contacted them, and this is precisely what they said. It was not helpful. I'm assuming the book is filtered because there's a moment or two that appears to be dubcon (actually the story is about a committed couple shaking up their love life a bit). I may yet ask again to have it unfiltered, but since I don't know what the problem is, I can't really do much to change their minds.


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## BEAST (Mar 31, 2012)

emilycantore said:


> After amending my content descriptions I emailed KDP support to request the titles be removed from the "adult" categorisation and received this back:
> 
> "Hello,
> 
> ...


Hey Emily, okay, this is exactly what I got when I changed the cover image and emailed. So, I went to Selena Kitts website to check out the naught word list and made sure those words were not anywhere on my cover, description or anything. After I removed the word "breeding" from the title and the description I emailed them back and they removed it. It might be a good thing to update the version you have and say, "I've updated the cover, description and content of the book to meet the standards outlined by Amazon," or something to that effect...


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Unless you have a lot of reviews that you would lose, if you are making changes to the book to avoid the filter, the only real solution is to upload it as a new title. Your also-bots are already fried anyway, so might as well start over. Amazon is being very tough once they look close. The trick is to avoid them looking close. Certain key words trigger them looking close and once you are marked, it's hard to shake.

I just started a fifth pen name to place all the books I think will get filtered.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

I am so incredibly sick of the hold that Amazon has over this industry. It's time for a real alternative, and I believe that indie publishers should really throw our weight behind some other players in this market. Amazon clearly isn't interested in our long (or short) term interests.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> Unless you have a lot of reviews that you would lose, if you are making changes to the book to avoid the filter, the only real solution is to upload it as a new title. Your also-bots are already fried anyway, so might as well start over. Amazon is being very tough once they look close. The trick is to avoid them looking close. Certain key words trigger them looking close and once you are marked, it's hard to shake.
> 
> I just started a fifth pen name to place all the books I think will get filtered.


I've got two that they've designated as ADULT. One had a cover with a bit of bum on it at one time, though no longer, but I'm not sure why they've penalised the other one. There's an embracing couple on the front, with the girl in her undies, but nothing naughty showing. The title is Erotic Escapades: stories of sizzling sex, so I guess that's it. There's nothing exceptionally extreme in the content though, certainly nothing stronger than 50 Shades.

If I don't sell a copy of either by the end of the month, I'm taking them down and will consider what to do with them. EE is an antho anyway, so the stories are still available separately. Might bundle the other with something else.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

I need your help!

I recently released several erotic romance short stories. They have done better than I dreamed. My free title "Banging The Boy Next Door" has been hovering at around 20 free in the Kindle Store and has been at 1 in free romance shorts for several weeks. This has been driving my other sales.

So imagine my horror when I got up this morning to find the ADULT label slapped onto it!

Could you offer any advice as to why it may have got the filter? It's vanilla, nothing dubious, everyone over 18, no nudity on the cover. I'm guessing it's because I've got the word 'banging' in the title.

Any ideas anyone?

http://www.amazon.com/Banging-The-Next-Door-ebook/dp/B00CCH4WKI/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1368261935&sr=1-1&keywords=banging+the+boy+next+door


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

There's a theory that they're going through everything listed in erotica (as your story is) and throwing it into the adult dungeon. Since you were so high on the overall charts, you probably caught their attention pretty quick. Because aside from Banging, I'm not sure what else could be setting them off. Are any of your seven keywords exceptionally naughty?

FWIW though, reading those reviews gave me a good laugh. =P


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

It's not in the erotica catergory but romance>anthologies and short stories. None of my keywords are particularly racy. So it must be 'banging' in the title do you think? 

If so, any ideas how I can alter the title without losing readers?

And yes, some of the reviews are amusing. Par for the course with free erotic romance, I think. I particularly like the one who 'found the language crude'.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

I know it's a long shot... but could it be the juxtaposition of 'boy' and banging ie. they're tagging it as suggesting under-age? 

You wouldn't think so, as 'boy next door' is such a commonly used phrase applied to romance/erotic romance heroes, but if they're using a bot to identify titles to be segregated that might be it.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

katybaker said:


> It's not in the erotica catergory but romance>anthologies and short stories. None of my keywords are particularly racy. So it must be 'banging' in the title do you think?
> 
> If so, any ideas how I can alter the title without losing readers?
> 
> And yes, some of the reviews are amusing. Par for the course with free erotic romance, I think. I particularly like the one who 'found the language crude'.


When I look at the bottom of your page, I get these categories:

Books > Literature & Fiction > Erotica
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Erotica

Your top rankings, however, do point to anthologies. (You may not have chosen erotica categories, but it looks like someone at amazon moved it there anyway.)

If you wanted to change the title, you could probably try something like "Fun With" instead of "Banging".


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

portiadacosta said:


> I know it's a long shot... but could it be the juxtaposition of 'boy' and banging ie. they're tagging it as suggesting under-age?


I never thought of that. Something to think about. I've removed anything from the description and keywords that might flag as adult (even though it didn't really have anything to begin with) and emailed Amazon asking them to remove the filter. If they still don't then the ONLY thing I can think of is the title.

I've seen other books with 'Banging' in the title that still show up in the main search. So maybe you're onto something with it being in the same title as 'boy'. Hmm. This is such a minefield!

Thanks for your insight.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

Hildred said:


> When I look at the bottom of your page, I get these categories:
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction > Erotica
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Erotica


That's very annoying. I never put this title in erotica. It's only ever been in a romance sub genre. It has an HEA (or will do by the end of the series) so it's erotic romance, not erotica. I wonder why Amazon entered it into erotica? Grr.

Could I have some advice please: If I removed 'Banging' from the title completely and just went with 'The Boy Next Door' would this make me lose all the rankings/reviews associated with the book?


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

Amazon doesn't really care. They probably saw the core content and how short it was, and assumed it was erotica. They tend to do that with sexy materials of short lengths. 

If you change the title through your dash, then no, you won't lose anything. Only if you unpublish and republish again will you lose your reviews and such.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

Hildred said:


> Amazon doesn't really care. They probably saw the core content and how short it was, and assumed it was erotica. They tend to do that with sexy materials of short lengths.
> 
> If you change the title through your dash, then no, you won't lose anything. Only if you unpublish and republish again will you lose your reviews and such.


That's reassuring. I'll wait to see if the mighty Zon takes the filter off. If not, I'll have to go down the change of title route.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Early in the filtering stages, authors with clout were arguing with Amazon via email and getting the filter off.

But no more. Authors have changed covers, titles, keywords, and still, they won't take it off once it is on. Selena Kitt went for the jugular when they filtered her lead title, Babysitting the Baumgartners, and it's still filtered.

They moved you to erotica because they felt like that's where you should be. I had a hot freebie short in romance that they moved as well, and it was nothing but a married couple deciding to give their marriage another try and having a hot encounter doing it. When I hit the top 100 free, they moved me from romance to erotica and everything tanked quickly.


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## Virginia Wade (Sep 4, 2011)

*sigh* 

I survived the daddy filtering in the spring of 2012.

In September, when my sales dropped inexplicably, I assumed it was some sort of algorithm change. My sales have never recovered from that.

This latest round of filtering is an entirely different matter all together. Most of my bestsellers have been hit, and I don't think they are done filtering. I do believe there is a filter up on B&N also, but it might not be as effective as Amazon's. Erotica is all but invisible on iTunes.

I've had a fair amount of success publishing in this genre. I sold well over 100,000 ebooks last year. However, I'm seeing the writing on the wall...and it's not pretty.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I've had a fair amount of success publishing in this genre. I sold well over 100,000 ebooks last year. However, I'm seeing the writing on the wall...and it's not pretty.


And it's frustrating particularly because _there is a huge market for this stuff_. There is clearly a large segment of the ebook reading audience that wants to read erotic work, so hiding it from its audience is *dons Spock ears* not logical. I really hope someone manages to start up a big erotic books seller that takes off. Of course, once it becomes huge Amazon will try to buy it *laughs wryly*.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> Early in the filtering stages, authors with clout were arguing with Amazon via email and getting the filter off.
> 
> But no more. Authors have changed covers, titles, keywords, and still, they won't take it off once it is on.


The OP managed to get his adult filter off so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I don't understand how this kind of filtering makes business sense. If we lose sales, so do Amazon. And erotica/erotic romance is such a huge market that this lost revenue has the potential to be mega bucks.

Why won't Amazon be transparent on this? If they gave authors a list of what classifies a book 'Adult' we can all make sure we stay within their guidelines. It's not rocket science is it?


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## Skye Hunter (Apr 30, 2013)

Isn't the prospect of more filtering actually good? I understand limited filtering completely destroys some authors because they're not found in general searches but if they go after everything, then no erotica will show up in actual searches and people will have to filter down the erotica subcategory to get to the stuff the want or am I just taking a too positive spin on this whole thing  ?

I think at the end of the day it seems like a lost cause. Sure the rules for what gets filtered and what doesn't(per selena's post) are mainly the raunchy stuff in the titles/covers but I don't think this is the end of the adult filtering. It's pretty clear what Amazon wants to do and eventually, all indie Erotica books will probably be filtered as ADULT.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Isn't the prospect of more filtering actually good? I understand limited filtering completely destroys some authors because they're not found in general searches but if they go after everything, then no erotica will show up in actual searches and people will have to filter down the erotica subcategory to get to the stuff the want...


The problem is that it's not obvious how to search for the stuff they want. People look under an erotic author's name, or look for a title they've heard of, and they don't find it, so they go on to another website, or give up entirely. If it's not on the general search, the logical assumption is that it's simply not available on Amazon. As a customer, I expect things to show up in the general search, and it would never have occurred to me that they wouldn't until I read about this. This is why an adult on/off switch would work a lot better, IMHO.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

MegHarris said:


> The problem is that it's not obvious how to search for the stuff they want. People look under an erotic author's name, or look for a title they've heard of, and they don't find it, so they go on to another website, or give up entirely. If it's not on the general search, the logical assumption is that it's simply not available on Amazon. As a customer, I expect things to show up in the general search, and it would never have occurred to me that they wouldn't until I read about this. This is why an adult on/off switch would work a lot better, IMHO.


I agree. I understand why they don't want raunchy covers showing up alongside kiddies toys! But the system at the moment is just too random. Some get filtered. Some don't. Readers aren't told that some might not show.

If they are going to filter ALL (including trad pubbed) erotica, fine. But where do you draw the line? Will erotic romance get filtered? How about straight romance with steamy scenes? Who is going to be the judge?

And if this happens, authors and readers need to be told so that a) authors can ensure their work meets the requirements and b) readers can find what they're looking for.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I put up a new title last night that should have been filtered based on the tendencies of Amazon to filter, but wasn't. They are extremely spotty about this, and that is the problem.

I think in an ideal world, a user could come onto Amazon and search for "Breeding" and see all the cat and dog books, plus a button that says, "More products available in the adult section." The people who just wanted cat breeding aren't offended, and the people who wanted the other kind click on it and get what they were looking for.

I think also the bestseller list should work the same way.

So, you go to the top 100 paid store. You see the cover and titles of 100 clean books and a button that says (Include Adult-Themed Titles.) Then the new list shows the placement of adult books in there too.

Anyway, I can dream.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Curses! Since I last looked, another of my titles has been banished to the Adult prison!


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

portiadacosta said:


> I know it's a long shot... but could it be the juxtaposition of 'boy' and banging ie. they're tagging it as suggesting under-age?
> 
> You wouldn't think so, as 'boy next door' is such a commonly used phrase applied to romance/erotic romance heroes, but if they're using a bot to identify titles to be segregated that might be it.


That's exactly what I'm thinking. Boy + banging probably flags it.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Is the word Slut an ADULT-triggering no-no?

It's in one of my subtitles, not published yet.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Daizie said:


> Is the word Slut an ADULT-triggering no-no?
> 
> It's in one of my subtitles, not published yet.


Considering the way things are, I think I'd probably play safe and find an alternative. At least you've got the chance to change at this stage.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't think slut was on the list.

But they are being so spotty that some think they are going to filter the whole category, and they are moving everything they can INTO the category in preparation.

It will be better if they do that than the piecemeal thing they have now.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Is it true tagging your book as Erotic Romance in keywords will automatically bump it into Erotica now? These are different kinds of stories.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Okay, so I read Selena Kitt's list of keywords to avoid. I am changing my keywords at KDP. Do I need to go through the entire edit stage and hit *Publish* button or is just *Save and Continue* enough?


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## Paranormal Piper (Sep 24, 2012)

Lady Vine said:


> PLEASE someone create the biggest, _bestest_ erotica ebook store ever so we can all migrate our stuff there. There's obviously a big readership, and if Amazon, Apple or whoever else doesn't want to accept its money, there needs to be a store that will.
> 
> If I had the time I'd make it myself. I know there's a helluva lot of money in erotica.


Hey Lady Vine. I've had my titles caught in the net too, although I'm not shy about it; I write porn instead of erotica. I also think it's crap that Amazon is mainly targeting Indies.

I don't have a clue about how to make a store for erotica or I'd do it in a heartbeat (might have to research this), but I did create a site that will at least get the word out about erotica titles and point interested readers in the right direction. The site is new but you can check it out at http://eroticereaderbargains.blogspot.com/

Now to check with oh-wise-and-powerful Google about how to set-up an ebook store


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

And...I'm filtered. My new book got it 48 hours after it went live. It's gone from searches now.

I started a 5th pen name to keep it from leaking over to my other titles, since they do seem to check an entire author's collection while they are at it.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> And...I'm filtered. My new book got it 48 hours after it went live. It's gone from searches now.
> 
> I started a 5th pen name to keep it from leaking over to my other titles, since they do seem to check an entire author's collection while they are at it.


Oh no! Commiserations. I'm so sorry to hear that they got you like that. I'm checking my stuff at Sales Rank Express every few hours, in fear that the dreaded label will appear on more titles. 

I was going to make changes and ask if they'd remove the tag, like the OP, but I'm thinking again on that. If I draw their scrutiny, I'm scared they might go through my catalogue and slap Adult on everything.

As I said before, I might just take two titles down altogether... but the third is worth doing something with. Maybe I'll rewrite and upload with a new cover, title, blurb etc. It's not as if it's got any reviews to lose and the ranking is rubbish too.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I might have said this before, but from the collaborative understanding of how it works, the keywords are what start the filter-train. You might compare the keywords on the filtered vs the unfiltered titles.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

I've sent an email because mine is filtered ADULT on that other website, but I can still see it in the search when I choose 'Kindle Store", not in the general search.
Can someone confirm it? Name is Calamari Spa Fantasies.


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## Paranormal Piper (Sep 24, 2012)

katybaker said:


> The OP managed to get his adult filter off so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I don't understand how this kind of filtering makes business sense. If we lose sales, so do Amazon. And erotica/erotic romance is such a huge market that this lost revenue has the potential to be mega bucks.
> 
> Why won't Amazon be transparent on this? If they gave authors a list of what classifies a book 'Adult' we can all make sure we stay within their guidelines. It's not rocket science is it?


Amazon won't be transparent because transparency doesn't benefit them. If they say sexy rich guys dominating innocent little things is adult then they have to slap things like 50 Shades into the dungeon, and they don't want to do that. If they just leave the guidelines murky, then they have an excuse to hit some and not others.

Honestly, from what I've seen on the site, the most honest explanation they could give is, "We'll put naughty indie titles in the dungeon but everyone else can do what they want."


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> I've sent an email because mine is filtered ADULT on that other website, but I can still see it in the search when I choose 'Kindle Store", not in the general search.
> Can someone confirm it? Name is Calamari Spa Fantasies.


At Amazon.com I see it in a search from Kindle Store, but not from the front page.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

portiadacosta said:


> At Amazon.com I see it in a search from Kindle Store, but not from the front page.


Thanks Portia. Just like me.
It's not that bad, then, right? I thought it wouldn't appear at all. Did I miss something?


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Thanks Portia. Just like me.
> It's not that bad, then, right? I thought it wouldn't appear at all. Did I miss something?


No, I don't think they disappear altogether, but they're not findable in searches from the home page, searching with 'all'. If people are looking for books, or Kindle titles, and they start their search in those sections, they'll find our books. But I'd imagine the majority of people just go to the front page, and put the title or author name straight in the box there without thinking any more about it. I mean, why wouldn't they? It's the most normal and natural thing to do and they assume that search will bring up results for all that's available under that author or title. But sadly, when they do that, our 'adult' tagged pariahbooks are hidden from them and they'll never know that they even exist.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> At Amazon.com I see it in a search from Kindle Store, but not from the front page.





> It's not that bad, then, right? I thought it wouldn't appear at all.


Exactly-- this is how the "adult" filter works. The book cannot be found in a general search; in a Kindle search it will show up at the very end of your results; and it will not show up in alsobots. This may not seem so bad to you, but it actually kills sales very, very dead. For one thing, in a general search the book appears to be entirely missing (if you search for it on Amazon, and it's not there, you're unlikely to think there's any point in searching in the Kindle store-- any normal customer would assume that if it's not in an overall search, it's simply not there), and I think the alsobot thing kills sales, too.


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## Skye Hunter (Apr 30, 2013)

Nathalie Hamidi said:


> Thanks Portia. Just like me.
> It's not that bad, then, right? I thought it wouldn't appear at all. Did I miss something?


The problem is that once you're adult filtered, you stop showing in general searches while other erotica with the same subject matter continues to be since the filtering is so spotty. Most people seem to just assume that if it doesn't show up in general searches it doesn't exist PLUS once you're adult filter, I believe your also bought and also viewed results will only match other adult filtered books which can severly limit your sales if the majority of the other books with that subject matter are not also filtered.

It wouldn't be such a huge issue if Amazon was consistent with it. Either filter everything or filter nothing.


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

In her blog post Selena Kitt recommends categorizing erotic romance as romance, to avoid the filter. 

Yay or nay? I'm trying to decide whether it's better to risk being filtered, or angering romance readers who weren't expecting such a racy read. I'm thinking I might just risk the filter. 

Someone really needs to make a classy, professional search site for erotica with links back to the sellers. If it was combined with a bookbub-type newsletter, even better. There's a lot of money to be made here, all you business-minded people!

Honestly, the way amazon is handling this makes them seem really obtuse. I can understand their need to shield people from "Jane Gets Bred By Her Tentacle Daddy" stuff. Ha. I read/write erotica and I don't want to see that stuff either. But filtering stuff *fairly* is not a big deal, and other sites have already come up with perfectly reasonable solutions. Like youtube, where users can flag videos as "mature", and then other users have to be logged in, and verify they are over 18 to see them. Everyone wins. This isn't rocket science.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> Exactly-- this is how the "adult" filter works. The book cannot be found in a general search; in a Kindle search it will show up at the very end of your results; and it will not show up in alsobots. This may not seem so bad to you, but it actually kills sales very, very dead. For one thing, in a general search the book appears to be entirely missing (if you search for it on Amazon, and it's not there, you're unlikely to think there's any point in searching in the Kindle store-- any normal customer would assume that if it's not in an overall search, it's simply not there), and I think the alsobot thing kills sales, too.


Thanks Meg for enlightning me. I didn't see it that way. It's true that I don't sell much so it's likely that it doesn't make a lot of difference to me, the Turd Master! 
I didn't quite get that also-bought things, but it's something I understand now. That's why no book points to mine in YASIV, isn't it?



Skye Hunter said:


> The problem is that once you're adult filtered, you stop showing in general searches while other erotica with the same subject matter continues to be since the filtering is so spotty. Most people seem to just assume that if it doesn't show up in general searches it doesn't exist PLUS once you're adult filter, I believe your also bought and also viewed results will only match other adult filtered books which can severly limit your sales if the majority of the other books with that subject matter are not also filtered.
> 
> It wouldn't be such a huge issue if Amazon was consistent with it. Either filter everything or filter nothing.


Yes, it's true. Why just some and not everybody?


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Jenmills said:


> In her blog post Selena Kitt recommends categorizing erotic romance as romance, to avoid the filter.
> 
> Yay or nay? I'm trying to decide whether it's better to risk being filtered, or angering romance readers who weren't expecting such a racy read. I'm thinking I might just risk the filter.


It won't help. They are moving books from romance into erotica as well, and once they do it, you have no control over your categories any longer PLUS you're filtered. I've had a book moved -- a vanilla married couple one -- and two friends have too. Their KDP panel still says "romance" but their book product page is for erotica.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is some of the coordinated author response to the filter:

US: www.amazon.com/dp/B00CODMIV0
UK (.77): www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CODMIV0


DID YOU KNOW EBOOK RETAILERS HIDE THE SEXIEST STORIES?

Have you been on the hunt for more sexy stories after reading E.L. James' megablockbuster Fifty Shades of Grey but don't know what to search for? Or maybe you've noticed that your favorite types of stories seem to be getting scarce? The reason is that Amazon, iTunes, Barnes & Noble and Kobo hide the hottest stories but doesn't tell readers how to find what they're looking for!

To help you find the kind of erotica you want, this guide will:
* Explain how to best use the search engines on Amazon, iTunes, Barnes & Noble and Kobo to find what you're looking for
* Tell you about alternative sources for quality sexy stories
* Show you how to find free erotic ebooks
* Introduce to you some of today's hottest authors
* Define the most popular erotica keywords and offer alternate words to search for

Pick this up today and start reading the stories you want most tonight!


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Michelle, thank you for posting that! I should have done it! I am keeping my separate lives TOO separate!


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Wow, that was good thinking, Emily. I'm glad you got through to someone, finally, especially since it's your first book in the series. I have seen that cover art on other covers too. Did they send you a note telling you they were removing the ADULT status?

It's totally unfair how they pick and choose so randomly, and end up targeting indies almost exclusively.


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## Daizie (Mar 27, 2013)

Well, one down.


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## lukemallory (May 13, 2013)

Had no idea about this stuff


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> I just got the ADULT categorization reversed for my 1st title in an eight-book series.
> 
> Here is what I wrote:
> 
> ...


My only suggestion is to try not to name indie names because it could put the author under unwanted scrutiny. Stick to FSOG, they'll never brush that under the carpet.

M


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## EllieLupin (Mar 12, 2013)

This thread has just been a lifesaver!

I created a pen name specifically for my more taboo erotica/erotic romance titles and was wondering why my latest one had tanked so spectacularly after a good start. It's definitely ADULT filtered. The funny thing is - and the reason I'm not sure if I should just republish the story or change the title - I have a far more explicit title up under that name as well. The book they banned is the first of a series and contains pseudo incest (adopted brothers) but only has a masturbatory scene and it's clear that the characters are of age and not actually related. The other book is m/f, but contains interspecies werewolf breeding with much description and multiple sex acts and things like knotting. If they take a hard look at my pen name, it will get banned. 

What would y'all do?


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## Marina Maddix (Sep 7, 2012)

It's not banned, just hidden. Meaning, it won't come up in a general 'All Categories' search. And there's really not a lot you can do about it. The PI is enough to get it filtered, regardless of how graphic the sex is. Expect the rest to be filtered sooner or later. It sucks that Amazon doesn't allow their customers the choice of turning on/off an adult filter.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Got an answer too! 



> Hello,
> 
> We've reviewed your response concerning the following book(s):
> 
> ...


Rump dance!

(__\__) (__|__) (__/__) (__|__) (__\__) *cha cha cha!*


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

I wonder if it's worth getting Power of Three reconsidered. I already have a new cover in the wings for it that's designed to match my trad covers, and with a bit of tweaking to blurb etc they might be reasonable. It's a fairly mildish title, comparatively speaking, and certainly no more extreme than 50 Shades, and stuff by Maya Banks for instance. It does have threesome sex, but it's playful and loving in tone, almost redemptive... and there's no DP or anything particularly extreme. 

And I agree, this thread is so helpful. Thanks to everyone sharing their experiences and their feedback from Amazon.


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## katybaker (May 11, 2013)

Good news! Amazon have agreed to lift the restrictions on 'Banging The Boy Next Door.!

It took persistance (3 emails) and a change of cover and title but I finally got there. Portia, I think you were right with your suggestion that it was the use of the words 'banging' and 'boy' in the title that was the problem. It's now called 'The Boy Next Door'. A bit generic and I'll have to see what effect this has on sales. 

The title has slipped to 3 in free erotica (was number 1) but I'm hoping because it's still in the top 10 the adult filter might not have done too much damage. Having said that, 12 hours after receiving the email, the filter is still on. Any ideas how long the changes take?

My advice to anyone who thinks the filter is on their books unfairly: check your keywords, catergories, title and cover. And PERSIST!!

There is hope!!!


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## Mandy84 (May 14, 2013)

I'm a new erotica author and I'm about to launch a series on Amazon. I'm not really sure what to do about the new "rules" in place though. My story is very pornographic--the themes are all ones that are banned per Selena Kitt's list. So I think that trying to avoid the adult filter is pointless--the only people who will enjoy my story are ones who enjoy cuckold/breeding stories, so if I hide that fact, I think the people who read it will not like it, and the people who want to find it won't.

So for a very pornographic, restricted-theme story, any suggestions for launching? Just go for it and put all of the bad terms in keywords and a really explicit extract? Or should I try and soften it up anyway in the hopes that I get a few days of non-ADULT?


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

One of my erotica stories is in the erotica section, but it hasn't got an adult tag at the salesrank place and I can find it from the homepage search all. I'm wondering if only I can see it because I'm logged in or something?

Could someone else search and see if it comes up for them under Annette Gisby?

My two erotic/erotic romances are Of Pets and Pleasures and The Prince's Guard.

Thanks,
Annette


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Annette_g said:


> One of my erotica stories is in the erotica section, but it hasn't got an adult tag at the salesrank place and I can find it from the homepage search all. I'm wondering if only I can see it because I'm logged in or something?
> 
> Could someone else search and see if it comes up for them under Annette Gisby?
> 
> ...


Good news! I see both in searches done from the home page, using 'all'.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Quick question re. categories.

Basically, my book is erotic, there's no denying it. But it doesn't contain anything extreme or taboo. It'd be a flat out lie, though, not to have 'erotica' in the categories section, and in the Romance category, put it in the subcategory Adult Romance. 

Do you think they would still remove the ADULT tag, if the cover is compliant etc and I quote a couple of big author names, who have more extreme content than me and who aren't tagged ADULT? 

I mean... there's an absolute ocean of thousands of erotica titles out there, both trad and indie, that aren't 'in prison'.


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## seela connor (Apr 11, 2011)

It seems very likely that we're all focused on the wrong thing.

Amazon is not comfortable with explicit erotica and they never have been. Books that fall into this category may not be banned, but may not be the moneymakers that they were in days of yore.

We mere humans will never outwit the automated indexing power of Amazon, and if they want to shut down explicit erotica they have the resources to do so.

It seems to me that there are two options:

censor your cover, your title, and possibly your content to keep off of the "adult" list
through your marketing weight behind a company that cares about erotica

Personally, I believe that Mark Coker at Smashwords has been an absolute saint in standing up for the needs of indies and fighting for the rights of authors/fans to read *whatever kind of smut they want*.

I believe that we would be far better off to throw our ingenuity, marketing, etc behind Smashwords than to try to battle the stubborn ol' Amazon.

_When_ a world-class erotica storefront is available, great. Until then, I believe we're barking up the wrong tree:


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Personally, I believe that Mark Coker at Smashwords has been an absolute saint in standing up for the needs of indies and fighting for the rights of authors/fans to read whatever kind of smut they want.


I've been on Smashwords for quite a while now, and I just don't sell much there. I've sold very few erotic romances there over the course of a year and a half (I'm talking direct SW sales here), and I've heard generally similar comments from others. It's great that SW supports erotica and has fought for it, but the problem is that I'm not sure all the promotion in the world would help me sell books there unless they revamp the site to make things more, well, findable.


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't think the future is terribly gloomy. Once a critical-mass of erotica is filtered from the main search, it will become common knowledge among erotica readers that one has to search under "books" or "kindle" to find it. Info like that has a way of spreading. We should all be spreading this info as much as possible too. I'm even thinking about putting a note at the end of my KDP editions - "Can't find my other titles in the Amazon store? Try searching under "Kindle", just in case they get filtered down the track.

Mark Coker has certainly behaved admirably on behalf of erotica readers and writers, but the problem with smashwords is that it is largely a distributer, not a bookseller. This probably won't change any time soon. I don't think we actually need another storefront for erotica, it would be more useful to take all the effort and time required to set up a store, and invest it in creating an excellent searchable directory. People are generally looking for something very specific when seeking erotica, and the current stores aren't particularly helpful in that respect (as an erotica reader, I usually use goodreads to find new titles). It would require someone who has a nuanced understanding of both the smut and the erotic romance markets.


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## Jenmills (Feb 22, 2012)

The problem is not that amazon is filtering books. Erotica writers don't want people who aren't interested in erotica (or who shouldn't be exposed to it) landing on our product pages. We want people who WANT erotica on our pages. The problem is that amazon is not being explicit about the haphazard filtering they are doing right now. 

All amazon needs to do is implement a "Do you wish to see adult books?" switch, and the problem would be solved. Erotica readers would be happy. Erotica authors would be happy. People who wish to avoid erotica would be happy. Everyone wins. If they did this, I'd even give amazon a free pass in regards to leaving 50 Shades out of the filter (because it's true, this book is a cultural phenomenon and everyone has heard of it by now anyway).


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## Skye Hunter (Apr 30, 2013)

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> If you post an explicit sample on the description page you _should_ be behind a filter. Sorry, but my kids use my computer to search Amazon for stuff all the time, and although I try to monitor it, it's a popular store and I am not comfortable with my 13 year old accidentally seeing an explicit cover when she searches from the homepage and clicks through out of curiosity and ends up on a page where the first few words in the author input sample on the description page includes language that explicitly describes sex acts or gory violence or anything else over the top. Kids have to learn this stuff is out there sometime, but it's ridiculous to have to control every single thing they do because a few people have no concept of good judgment. Look Inside is the place for explicit samples IMO and that's the only place, because Amazon is like Walmart these days for most people. A family store. As someone who has published stuff I wouldn't want my kids to read yet, I'll say I don't care what other adults see. When I want to find something, I want to find it. But if you want to be seen on the homepage searches, it's my opinion that you need to exercise some judgment when it comes to what you include in your cover and description. Mark it adult in the description but not by including 30 different synonyms for sex acts and body parts.
> 
> Amazon needs to squash this kind of thing if they want people to be comfortable teaching their kids to shop at Amazon.
> 
> ...


I agree with this but Amazon needs to be consistent in their approach. Either filter everything or come up with a new method of filtering erotica.


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

After second and third thoughts on this filter of my erotica novel, I'm fine with it now, as it protects younger viewers from stumbling upon it as well as uninterested readers. That's a GOOD THING! It makes me even more determined to market my amazon book link via social media and even using the 'search banning' as a stronger hook for why you should read my new too hot for amazon novel. Thanks Amazon...I've sold 57 copies in 13 days after the adult label and reached 9,400 paid in kindle so far. I'll wear it like a badge of honor and stay true to my book & original cover.   #1 ranking in erotica this month...I expect it.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

For those of you who got a reversal--do keep an eye on it.

Five of the erotica writers in a group I'm in got their filter off, only to have it reapplied a few days later.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

SEAN H. ROBERTSON said:


> After second and third thoughts on this filter of my erotica novel, I'm fine with it now, as it protects younger viewers from stumbling upon it as well as uninterested readers. That's a GOOD THING! It makes me even more determined to market my amazon book link via social media and even using the 'search banning' as a stronger hook for why you should read my new too hot for amazon novel. Thanks Amazon...I've sold 57 copies in 13 days after the adult label and reached 9,400 paid in kindle so far. I'll wear it like a badge of honor and stay true to my book & original cover.  #1 ranking in erotica this month...I expect it.


Oh honey...the filter protects no one. It's a crappy filter. It takes two clicks to mostly bypass it (although search results continue to be warped which hurts the authors more than protects any children.) Kids can still find all sorts of dirty stuff on Amazon. Fifty Shades of Grey, Bared to You and lots of raunchy erotica that has mysteriously escaped the filter. The sex toys will all come up in general search complete with pictures (so really does Amazon give a you-know-what about kids? I don't see it!) All it does effectively is cut your sales.

Again they are pretty much filtering Indies. Amazon thinks books with explicit sex are just fine for kids to see, just so long as its the ones they want them to find.

57 sales with a filtered title is great. I hope it grows for you but it will be hard for your book to go viral with the filter. I would estimate if your book had not been filtered the sales would have been double if not triple what you see now.

M


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> If you post an explicit sample on the description page you _should_ be behind a filter. Sorry, but my kids use my computer to search Amazon for stuff all the time, and although I try to monitor it, it's a popular store and I am not comfortable with my 13 year old accidentally seeing an explicit cover when she searches from the homepage and clicks through out of curiosity and ends up on a page where the first few words in the author input sample on the description page includes language that explicitly describes sex acts or gory violence or anything else over the top. Kids have to learn this stuff is out there sometime, but it's ridiculous to have to control every single thing they do because a few people have no concept of good judgment. Look Inside is the place for explicit samples IMO and that's the only place, because Amazon is like Walmart these days for most people. A family store. As someone who has published stuff I wouldn't want my kids to read yet, I'll say I don't care what other adults see. When I want to find something, I want to find it. But if you want to be seen on the homepage searches, it's my opinion that you need to exercise some judgment when it comes to what you include in your cover and description. Mark it adult in the description but not by including 30 different synonyms for sex acts and body parts.
> 
> Amazon needs to squash this kind of thing if they want people to be comfortable teaching their kids to shop at Amazon.
> 
> ...


I never posted explicit covers or excerpts. I was careful with my blurbs (apparently not careful enough) and I'm filtered.

'The filter protects children' is a myth. It does not. It takes two clicks to get past it--the problem is most readers don't know that and the search results put filtered books at the bottom of the list. Also you can see all sorts of HD images of sex toys. No way in H that my covers even came close to being that explicit. Never. But the toys and all the traditionally published sex books will come up with no barrier in general search.

Amazon is not protecting kids. This filter is a business decision.

If they wanted to protect kids:

-The filter would require a password to navigate around.

-All free erotica would be behind the filter but it's not. There's literally nothing stopping your kids from downloading all sorts of explicit and graphic content. Nothing. Some book similar to your example of Big Daddy Beats His Little Girl is there right now with nothing holding kids back.

-Sex toys would be behind a filter as well.

-Traditionally published books would be subject to the filter.

Amazon does not care about kids or decency. They care about their business. For some reason it makes sense for them to put indies in a ghetto.

M


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

mrv01d said:


> Oh honey...the filter protects no one. It's a crappy filter. It takes two clicks to mostly bypass it (although search results continue to be warped which hurts the authors more than protects any children.) Kids can still find all sorts of dirty stuff on Amazon. Fifty Shades of Grey, Bared to You and lots of raunchy erotica that has mysteriously escaped the filter. The sex toys will all come up in general search complete with pictures (so really does Amazon give a you-know-what about kids? I don't see it!) All it does effectively is cut your sales.
> 
> Again they are pretty much filtering Indies. Amazon thinks books with explicit sex are just fine for kids to see, just so long as its the ones they want them to find.
> 
> ...


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> If you post an explicit sample on the description page you should be behind a filter.


Agreed, but that's not what's happening. My "adult filtered" book is no more raunchy than any of my others (none of which are particularly raunchy, as I write fairly vanilla erotic romance). I don't have anything explicit in the description, nor is the cover unusually racy. There's nothing about it that should horrify mothers of little chlldren any more than my other work. It just caught someone's attention at Amazon, and _voila_, it's filtered.



> All amazon needs to do is implement a "Do you wish to see adult books?" switch, and the problem would be solved. Erotica readers would be happy. Erotica authors would be happy. People who wish to avoid erotica would be happy. Everyone wins.


Exactly. Simple, straightforward, _honest_, and everyone's happy. This is not a hard thing to accomplish, and it makes perfect sense.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I think the point is that Amazon should mark every product as adult or not, toys, games, books, movies, etc. and be consistent. None of them should show on the home page search. The criteria should be clear and easy to manage so that authors or product distributors don't accidentally get filtered when they shouldn't be, for example, breeding erotica books -- yes, breeding cows books -- no. It should also be set so that content producers can't skirt the filter (i.e. putting breeding erotica in pets to avoid filtering.)

Right now, half show, half don't. It's just a complaint, and it's pretty simple. Hopefully Amazon will fix things eventually. It's a big job. It's a big store.


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## EllieLupin (Mar 12, 2013)

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> If you post an explicit sample on the description page you _should_ be behind a filter. Sorry, but my kids use my computer to search Amazon for stuff all the time, and although I try to monitor it, it's a popular store and I am not comfortable with my 13 year old accidentally seeing an explicit cover when she searches from the homepage and clicks through out of curiosity and ends up on a page where the first few words in the author input sample on the description page includes language that explicitly describes sex acts or gory violence or anything else over the top.


Just wanted to say that I'm another one who does not have an explicit sample up, does not use an explicit cover, and while I do have the sexual acts listed, it's honestly so that people don't feel cheated at the lack of penetrative sex and is worded fairly clinically ("This title contains m/m sexual acts including mutual masturbation and oral stimulation.") The title isn't even suggestive. As far as I can tell, the only reason my title is tagged 'Adult' is because it contains pseudo, homosexual incest between adopted siblings. There isn't even an age difference or much of an authority issue.

Now, you personally (or any individual, etc.) may not want to read that, but that's the beauty of the marketplace - you don't have to.

I think having a checkbox or pull down or something to say that you want adult products - including sexual aids, trad books, etc - is a great idea. Just apply it to everyone instead of throwing indie authors under the bus.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

portiadacosta said:


> Good news! I see both in searches done from the home page, using 'all'.


Thanks!


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

seela said:


> Personally, I believe that Mark Coker at Smashwords has been an absolute saint in standing up for the needs of indies and fighting for the rights of authors/fans to read *whatever kind of smut they want*.
> 
> I believe that we would be far better off to throw our ingenuity, marketing, etc behind Smashwords than to try to battle the stubborn ol' Amazon.


Yes, Mark was very helpful in fighting the censorship from Paypal.

However, I just had a book banned at Smashwords a few days ago. So no, he wasn't "fighting for the rights of authors/fans to read *whatever kind of smut they want*."

Actually, the only place that's never given me grief about what I write is Barnes & Noble.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> I'm writing in regard to one of my titles: Billionaire Bound (insert link).
> 
> This title has been categorized as "ADULT".
> 
> This title actually contains no sex.


You should put that in your blurb.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

justsomewriterwhowrites said:


> I don't expect the filter to protect kids. I expect to be able to send my kids to the homepage for Amazon and search for something without getting a bunch of titillating covers or titles that will encourage them to click through and then end up on a description page where they see words that are explicitly describing sex acts or violence. That's really all I expect. If they go to the Kindle page, then they're obviously looking and at that point, what's the point?


Okay but concern about inappropriately mixed search results (which does happen, I've had it happen with one of my books) is not the same issue as a filter.

And just so you know the day your kid decides to type 'penis' in the search box they are going to get a full 10" view of the sex toy industry.

M


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

swolf said:


> Actually, the only place that's never given me grief about what I write is Barnes & Noble.


I'm sure that day is coming.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Of course I am just one person, but I never search for books from the main page. I rarely seach for words when I look for books to begin with, I use the genre thingies on the left and then I might use a term. For example I go through the genre and subgenre until I hit historical romance and then I might type in american revolution or such thing to narrow it down more. 
I wonder how most readers search for stuff. 

The only thing I am a bit worried about as a reader of erotic romance is that because of these issues erotica writers have, they might try to sneak into the romance section with hopes of not getting that adult tag, or whatever that is. I already have a huge problem finding erotic romance now in the sea of erotica and porn. Nothing wrong with either, but I want what I want.  . 
It already seems mixed up right now and I never know what it is. Well some are obvious by the covers and titles, but not all of course. I think some are also toning down their covers and titles to not get caught in this filtering and all that makes it very difficult for us readers to find what we want. 
Its hard to try a new author when you don't know what it is they are writing. 

I wonder what filter ereaderiq uses for their adult filtering. You can click it or uncheck it. 

I guess I don't see why they cannot just make a section just for erotica and erotic shorts and the porn stuff. Right along with the other genres.  If they wanted too they could have a setting in the amazon account to not show that genre at all, it would be invisible. So those that want to protect their children can sign into their account before they let them browse. 
And the rest of us can either look or not. Of course its their site and they can do as they please. 

I also keep asking them for a erotic romance sub genre. I have asked them for a while now. But then of course you would have again those that try to sneak their non erotic romance stuff back under romance all over.

Not sure if there really is a solution that satisfies all. And I need more tea.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> Actually, the only place that's never given me grief about what I write is Barnes & Noble.


B&N added a thousand ranking points to many of us just to get us off the bestseller list a couple of years ago. So they are not blameless as far as erotica is concerned.



> I also keep asking them for a erotic romance sub genre.


Very much needed, as are more specific LGBT categories.


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## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Smashwords blocked one of my books from distribution because it had nude photos (vintage French postcards) on the interior. Amazon let that one through (no adult tag). 

Barnes & Noble has been the easiest, in a way--BUT none of my erotica titles show in the UK store. None at all. Non-erotica titles are all there.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Of course I am just one person, but I never search for books from the main page. I rarely seach for words when I look for books to begin with, I use the genre thingies on the left and then I might use a term. For example I go through the genre and subgenre until I hit historical romance and then I might type in american revolution or such thing to narrow it down more.
> I wonder how most readers search for stuff.
> 
> The only thing I am a bit worried about as a reader of erotic romance is that because of these issues erotica writers have, they might try to sneak into the romance section with hopes of not getting that adult tag, or whatever that is. I already have a huge problem finding erotic romance now in the sea of erotica and porn. Nothing wrong with either, but I want what I want. .
> ...


Amazon has begun policing romance and forcing books to erotica...whether they belong there or not. And many romance books do the same thing you've found with erotica... inappropriately list a romance as erotica instead of the romance category because they feel it's a good marketing decision.


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

MegHarris said:


> B&N added a thousand ranking points to many of us just to get us off the bestseller list a couple of years ago. So they are not blameless as far as erotica is concerned.


No not a couple years... try not even a full year ago. This is a current business practice at BN. The last author who was public about it was Aphrodite Hunt.


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## Jennifer R P (Oct 19, 2012)

The problem, it seems, is NOT that there's an adult filter. I'm all in favor of adult filters.

The real problem is that if somebody enters the exact title into search then, dang it, they should be able to find it.

A properly set up adult filter serves two purposes: It helps people who want it find it and it helps people who don't want it avoid it.

I'm not sure what Amazon's *intent* is, but it's clear that the filter is not being set up correctly. I'm not an erotica writer, but I do support people's right to read whatever kind of smut they want and I am quite willing to boost the signal on how people can find the "dungeoned" books when it's appropriate.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

Follow-up of my exchanges with Amazon:



> Please reevaluate the title CALAMARI SPA FANTASIES by POISON GODIVA. The
> cover has been changed and resubmitted to comply with your current terms of
> service and should no longer have an adult filter placed upon it or be
> excluded from the all-department search.
> ...





> Hello,
> 
> We've reviewed your response concerning the following book(s):
> 
> ...





> Hello Ariel,
> 
> I've noticed that not a day has passed and my book has gone back to the dreaded adult dungeon:
> Could you please review it again and mark it "NOT ADULT"?
> ...





> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for your recent email regarding the following book:
> 
> ...





> Hello,
> 
> my book has no more mature content than 50 Shades of Grey. I have trouble understanding what is happening. I don't appear in anyone else's also boughts, so I have virtually no visibility. At the same time, a lot of erotic books appear in my also-boughts. How are they less adult-oriented than mine?
> 
> Thank you for any clarification.


Le sigh.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

This has been a pattern for a lot of people who change their books to comply. At first it seems like you will not be labeled anymore, then it gets labeled again, as if the first layer of customer service thinks it is possible, but the escalation team knows it is not.

I haven't bothered. Many of us think ALL erotica books will get labeled, and we're trying to establish also-bots within the label.


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## Dormouse (Nov 10, 2012)

mrv01d said:


> 'The filter protects children' is a myth. It does not. It takes two clicks to get past it--the problem is most readers don't know that and the search results put filtered books at the bottom of the list. Also you can see all sorts of HD images of sex toys. No way in H that my covers even came close to being that explicit. Never. But the toys and all the traditionally published sex books will come up with no barrier in general search.


It's not only sex toys. It's also adult (male-oriented) magazines as well as actual porn-DVDs that show up. I tried a few search-words out and I had porn-DVDs with total nudity on the covers on the very first page of the search-results.

They aren't even sorted under 'adult movies' or such but simply under movies.

Yet Amazon cracks down on books. It feels rather sexistic if you consider that more women read erotic books than men do while more men than women watch porn movies. The movies are easy to find, the books get hidden away.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

I'm officially scared now. I'm salesrankexpressing Locked constantly. What really worries me though is that the sequel is meant to go live soon. The content is no heavier than Fifty Shades, in fact it's probably a little softer, but a new title seems like a prime target. I've been working on this series on and off for six months, and it's really seemed like it was going to pay off, but now I'm afraid it could all be for naught based on some arbitrary decision.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Maya, my mom used to say, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." In other words... don't borrow trouble. I know how you feel, because I have one going up today, and I'm terrified it'll be tossed into the dungeon. But worrying about it won't change the outcome, one way or the other. Wait and see what happens, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. _Locked _sold so well that with any luck, the sequel will do well no matter what Amazon does.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Maya Cross said:


> I'm officially scared now. I'm salesrankexpressing Locked constantly. What really worries me though is that the sequel is meant to go live soon. The content is no heavier than Fifty Shades, in fact it's probably a little softer, but a new title seems like a prime target. I've been working on this series on and off for six months, and it's really seemed like it was going to pay off, but now I'm afraid it could all be for naught based on some arbitrary decision.


Glad it's not just me. I'm salerankexpressing several times a day, bracing myself to see more Adult tags than the ones I've already got. I don't know whether the scrutineering has got harsher in the last few weeks, but I put a title up about 2 months ago that starts with the couple going at it hammer and tongs and has the 'c' word in the second paragraph and it's still eluding the dreaded tag. Having said that, I expect the axe will fall tomorrow... 

If covers are anything to go by, Locked ought to be safe. It's gorgeous... so elegant, yet subtly and tastefully evocative and sensual. Love it!


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

You do all realize we're all one 'Show Adult Content' button away from switching from complaining about having the label applied, to complaining it's not applied, right?



Hopefully, that's in the works.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

swolf said:


> You do all realize we're all one 'Show Adult Content' button away from switching from complaining about having the label applied, to complaining it's not applied, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, that's in the works.


Unless that's a 'ONLY Show Adult Content' button, I'll still take not being filtered =)


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

Some of you peeps are worrying too much, I think. My romance erotica  book is selling great,  released two weeks ago and I predict that it'll be my first Amazon top 100 bestseller this spring.  Stay optimistic,  friends!


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Maybe you're right. Perhaps the Adult tag doesn't make much difference. In fact, sadly, my untagged self published books don't sell either. They're entirely free of prison bars, but nobody will buy them. No matter what I do to try and promote them...


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> Maya, my mom used to say, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." In other words... don't borrow trouble. I know how you feel, because I have one going up today, and I'm terrified it'll be tossed into the dungeon. But worrying about it won't change the outcome, one way or the other. Wait and see what happens, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. _Locked _sold so well that with any luck, the sequel will do well no matter what Amazon does.


I've never been good at not worrying =) But I know that's the right approach. I'm now trying to work out how to categorise Lockout when I launch it in a few days. Take the gamble and try to stick in romance, or just go with erotica and risk drawing attention? Erotica does offer certain advantages, since you break the top 100 there with a ranking of #2000 or so, vs about #400 with Romance. I know it'll probably wind up in erotica whatever I do, but it does have a strong romance plot, much more so than the first part.



portiadacosta said:


> If covers are anything to go by, Locked ought to be safe. It's gorgeous... so elegant, yet subtly and tastefully evocative and sensual. Love it!


Thanks! I really love my covers. Part two is just as tasteful; a different image from the same series. Although it does have a fair amount of the girl's back exposed (no butts in sight though). Fingers crossed that's not a trigger =)


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

Maya, congrats on your sales. Could you share some of your erotica marketing tips or how you're able to nab so many reviews? Any tibit would help...thanks!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Since I don't (yet) write erotica, I admit I haven't been paying close attention to this issue.

However, the other day I decided to try to find one of the books authors were saying were unfindable, and by golly I couldn't find it. (Except on the author page, but most of us do searches on the author name, and don't often click through to the author page.

Here's the weird thing I noticed, though: Amazon used to have an "Advanced Search" option.  It's either gone, or they moved it to where it's not longer obvious to find.  I wrote them a complaint about both issues: their reputation is built on the reader being able to find exactly what he or she wants. If you put in an exact title, you should be able to find the book!

I'm wondering, though, given these changes, if Amazon isn't revamping their overall search interface.  When they do that, it seems like authors notice first.

In the meantime, I thought I heard someone say somewhere that there is a non-obvious method for the reader to get past the filter.  Does anybody here know how to do that?

Camille


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

portiadacosta said:


> Maybe you're right. Perhaps the Adult tag doesn't make much difference. In fact, sadly, my untagged self published books don't sell either. They're entirely free of prison bars, but nobody will buy them. No matter what I do to try and promote them...


I'm not a big erotica reader, but I've read some of your Black Lace titles way back and they were way better than much of what passes for erotica these days. I'll never understand why you don't sell much better than you do.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ok, I just have a question here about something I am not totally clear about. So the books with that "tag" will not show up if I were to search on the main amazon front right? But will they show up if I search on the kindle page? Or regular book page? If I search for the author in the book/kindle section, will those books show up? 

Just curious about that.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Well I personally never look at the also bought. I don't really care what else someone bought. I would care more if it was also liked.  

So the books will show up if in the kindle store then right? I did understand that correct.

I never search for books unless I am in the book section. Of course that is just me.


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## MercyFaulk (May 13, 2013)

From Amazon's homepage, type in what you're looking for in the search bar. On the left side of the bar, you'll notice 'All' and a little arrow. Click that and select either 'Books' or 'Kindle Books'. All books, including erotica, will come up then. Unfortunately, 99% of erotica customers don't know that they need to do this. If you don't, you'll get either a slew of titles that don't resemble what you're looking for, or you'll get an error message that no such title could be found. As in, it doesn't exist so don't bother looking any farther. 

This is, of course, why I wrote the third book in my siggy! (And it's FREE!)


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## Duane Gundrum (Apr 5, 2011)

Well, my latest book got into the adult dungeon, which is kind of ironic because it's a book about dungeons.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

MercyFaulk said:


> From Amazon's homepage, type in what you're looking for in the search bar. On the left side of the bar, you'll notice 'All' and a little arrow. Click that and select either 'Books' or 'Kindle Books'. All books, including erotica, will come up then. Unfortunately, 99% of erotica customers don't know that they need to do this. If you don't, you'll get either a slew of titles that don't resemble what you're looking for, or you'll get an error message that no such title could be found. As in, it doesn't exist so don't bother looking any farther.
> 
> This is, of course, why I wrote the third book in my siggy! (And it's FREE!)


This explains why someone's non-adult title (which had been mislabeled as adult) would not come up even if you searched on the exact name, but if you searched on "chocolate dildo," you could find _that_ product right away, in all it's rampant glory - no filter at all.

Camille


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

SEAN H. ROBERTSON said:


> Maya, congrats on your sales. Could you share some of your erotica marketing tips or how you're able to nab so many reviews? Any tibit would help...thanks!


I honestly don't have anything revolutionary to offer, but a few people have asked me a similar question, so I'll ramble a bit about what I think works and doesn't, and my general philosophy. Keep in mind, I'm not talking from a wealth of experience. I've had one book that's done pretty well, and that's basically all, and I attribute a good chunk of the success down to just plain old luck. But if you're still curious, then read on.

I approach my writing as a cross between business and pleasure. I like writing a variety of stuff, so from that pool I hone in on the stuff that works best and go from there. I don't think there's anything wrong with jumping on trends. They're trends for a reason. People find something they like and they want more of it, and I enjoy writing things that people want. But that doesn't just mean picking a genre, it means being more specific. Just because there's a lot of hungry erotica readers out there doesn't mean all types of stories are equal. Study your market. I've stared a lot at the erotica charts lately and I have a good idea of what sells. Right now it's rock stars, bikies, and billionaires. Those three heros are in huge demand. That will change eventually, but you're certainly doing yourself a favour if you write that sort of love interest. In a more general sense, erotic romance absolutely destroys regular erotica in terms of overall popularity. I think people are also more inclined to leave reviews for something with more plot, because there's less of a stigma about reading a romance with sex scenes than reading something that's straight up pornographic.

So with that in mind, my series is riding a really popular genre wave. Classy, rich, dominant hero with an enigmatic twist. But the important thing to note is that it doesn't LOOK like it's a direct clone. There's a million books out there riding the Fifty Shades wave, but if you look at most of the ones that are doing well these days, they're not super obvious about it. Some of the series that have crushed the charts lately: The Blackstone Affair, This Man, Up in the air (Mile high etc.), The Stark Trilogy, Knight and Play, The Ivy Lessons, The Berkley method. They're all in a vaguely similar vein, but the reason I think they do better than most of the more overt copies ("The Billionaire's" X, etc.) is that they've given it a unique spin. It's comfortable for people that loved Fifty Shades, but doesn't feel like a total rip off. Now I'm not saying that all of the more obvious billionaire fiction is just a copycat, some of it is very good, I'm just talking about the way it's titled, marketed, etc. It's a bit more obvious in its mimicry.

Once you've worked out your concept, it's important to be able to write an awesome blurb. If you can't instantly articulate what your story's hook is, then the simple truth is, maybe you need to go back to the drawing board. For me, I think that line at the top of my blurb sells the whole thing pretty well. "Who is Sebastian Lock?". It gets people curious, and it delivers the entire premise of my story up front.

I also think the cover is awesome, and I couldn't be more thankful to my friend who designed it. It makes it look professional, and it instantly identifies the genre and type of story to the reader. If you have a beautiful cover, people actually talk about it. I got a few sales the other day because someone randomly posted my book in a 'beautiful covers' thread on a forum somewhere. It's often the first thing people see, and if it doesn't look professional, you're instantly sending away a chunk of your potential audience.

So to summarise the above: find a compelling hook, make it both familiar yet a little unique, learn how to translate it into a killer hundred word summary, then package the whole thing with an awesome, eye catching cover.

In terms of promotion, there's really just one big tip I can share: make friends with bloggers. This is much harder for erotica than erotic romance, so keep that in mind. There are thousands of blogs out there hungry for great erotic romance of all genres (paranormal, new adult, traditional adult etc.), and most of them love spreading the word about your books. Roughly 20 of the reviews I got on Amazon come from blogs, but to do that I had to email over a hundred. A lot of them are backlogged with requests, and even those that aren't are quite selective. Again, this is where having a great blurb really matters, since they will usually decide to accept or reject a read based on that. They're people too, and their reading time is still for leisure. They're only going to take books that they think they'll like.

I did some paid advertising on romance blogs, but it's hard to tell how effective that was. I spent about $250, and got a total of about 500 clicks to my website. But the sell through rate is much much lower than that. I don't have exact figures, but it maybe sold 50 copies? I was doing it more for exposure than direct sales, so take that for what it's worth. Also note that Locked's big rise up the charts was mostly before the advertising kicked in. It had already hit #600 or so when the ads went online. I probably won't do this again.

I also did a giveaway via rafflecopter for the book launch, which drove a few hundred people to my various social media accounts, which is good in a long term sense. I don't spend a ton of time on those sites, but it's good to have a central point of contact nonetheless. Readers appreciate the ability to interact with you, and every few days I get an awesome message on my wall from someone about the book.

That's really all I've done. I haven't used any services like bookbub or anything since they don't accept stories with erotic content. I do think erotica is a much harder sell than erotic romance. It seems to me that the best marketing for straight up erotica is just to write more books.

Anyway, I hope that was at least a little helpful. Sorry it was a bit of a ramble, and probably not exactly what you asked for.


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## Jash (Apr 4, 2013)

Maya Cross said:


> Anyway, I hope that was at least a little helpful. Sorry it was a bit of a ramble, and probably not exactly what you asked for.


You have nothing to apologise for! Sharing all that is very generous and it's appreciated. I'm like a sponge when people who have found success are generous enough to share _any_ insight into how they did so... in any genre or niche. Thanks a lot!


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

That's all wonderful stuff, Maya. I'm printing it out. I actually have quite a few book blogger friends on Twitter, but it's mostly more of a chatty relationship... I never think on to ask them whether they'll read my books! Duh!

I'm probably too dense to ever sell big in self publishing... but my trad publishing does do better.


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I haven't used any services like bookbub or anything since they don't accept stories with erotic content.


They do now! They just opened up a list for that. I gather they still require full-length books and numerous good reviews, so they still won't do much for me. But you might find it helpful.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I'm not a big erotica reader, but I've read some of your Black Lace titles way back and they were way better than much of what passes for erotica these days. I'll never understand why you don't sell much better than you do.


Thank you so much, Cora! 

When I started self publishing, I naively thought my Black Lace readers would be interested in buying my self pub titles. In fact, they were! And back in August 2012 I was doing well, numbers growing beautifully, really getting somewhere... and then there was some sort of glitch in Sept 12, when nothing was recorded for several days... and my sales never recovered. The dropped like a stone and have been diminishing ever since, even without Adult tags.

Just bad luck, I guess.


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## Maya Cross (May 28, 2012)

MegHarris said:


> They do now! They just opened up a list for that. I gather they still require full-length books and numerous good reviews, so they still won't do much for me. But you might find it helpful.


So they do! I knew it was coming at some point. But yeah, it's going to have to be full length I assume. Also, I can't do much to my $0.99 first title in the way of discounts really. But it's nice to know it's there at least.


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## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeah, for true erotica, it's hard to get many reviews. But the eroms can probably get them.


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## Anjasa (Feb 4, 2012)

Atunah said:


> Ok, I just have a question here about something I am not totally clear about. So the books with that "tag" will not show up if I were to search on the main amazon front right? But will they show up if I search on the kindle page? Or regular book page? If I search for the author in the book/kindle section, will those books show up?
> 
> Just curious about that.


One of our filtered titles is A Son's Devotion. If you search it under general, it will not show up. If you search it under Kindle, it will show up - and it will be the very last result, after books that don't have "Son" or "Devotion" anywhere in the title.


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## Georgia (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm going to ask a bunch of stupid questions. I'm going through the process of getting one of my titles out of the Adult dungeon (removing the word orgy from the title and keywords) I'm just starting out, the book has only sold like one copy--people say the sales 'never recover', you lose your place in line; I guess I don't really understand sales rank and how it impacts search results. Is it just like starting over, or is it worse than starting over?

the words 'group sex' is now in the description--does that need to go too? I didn't see that on a list of banned terms. Is group sex now intrinsically 'adult' and simply by describing that type of content in anyway you get put in the dungeon? Or is it more about just a list of verboten terms and images.

I redid the cover... again, dumb question but is this nudity? I mean, it is, but you can't see anything...?


windows screenshot program


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## MercyFaulk (May 13, 2013)

Georgia said:


> I'm going to ask a bunch of stupid questions. I'm going through the process of getting one of my titles out of the Adult dungeon (removing the word orgy from the title and keywords) I'm just starting out, the book has only sold like one copy--people say the sales 'never recover', you lose your place in line; I guess I don't really understand sales rank and how it impacts search results. Is it just like starting over, or is it worse than starting over?
> 
> the words 'group sex' is now in the description--does that need to go too? I didn't see that on a list of banned terms. Is group sex now intrinsically 'adult' and simply by describing that type of content in anyway you get put in the dungeon? Or is it more about just a list of verboten terms and images.
> 
> ...


I don't _think_ that would be filtered but we're in uncertain times right now. I would highly suggest never publishing erotica from Friday through Sunday as the review staff seems to be particularly puritanical on the weekend.

As for 'group sex', I think what might get you in trouble is the word 'sex', especially if it's in the Erotica category. And, yes, I believe that getting the filter, then getting it lifted is worse than starting from zero, mainly because it seems a lot of folks keep an eye on the new releases page. I almost always have a few sales within hours of going live, and that gives the title a boost & momentum. But a book with a lifted filter is still about a vajillion times better off than one that's filtered, IMO (unless you have a big name and a big mailing list).

Speaking of mailing lists, that is one sure way to beat the Zon. Set up an account with MailChimp or other free newsletter service (you need a physical address to comply with anti-spam laws; I use a PO Box) and put the link to your sign up in the front and back matter of each and every story. The people who sign up are actual BUYERS of your work, so they will be much more likely to buy MORE of your work. And they don't need to search for it. If you can, incentivize the sign-up with a free story (Smashwords coupon).


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## Georgia (Jun 13, 2013)

First of all, you guys are all amazing. I'm so happy to have found this place.

Secondly, I escaped from the Adult Dungeon in about six hours!

Hm. That sounds wrong.

I followed the advice in Selena Kitt's blog, used her boilerplate, removed the word 'orgy' but left 'group-sex' in the description, changed the cover. They removed the label. (hm. they said they did. I need to go check.)

So, it's is missed it's 'whats new' debut I guess. Humorously enough, this thing which has sold one copy from the Dungeon at Amazon is my first..and only (sob) sale at Nook. Where it has the forbidden word, too. I noticed that my name didn't come up in searches there unless I was in the ebook tab. Is that normal for Nook?


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## MercyFaulk (May 13, 2013)

BN pushes erotica to the back of searches, including authors. You mean you can't find your name at all?

BTW, keep checking that title. Many people have had the filter lifted, only to have it descend again days later. Good luck!


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

portiadacosta said:


> Maybe you're right. Perhaps the Adult tag doesn't make much difference. In fact, sadly, my untagged self published books don't sell either. They're entirely free of prison bars, but nobody will buy them. No matter what I do to try and promote them...


You know, here is an observation out of the blue, and I hope you don't mind... But to me your covers look a bit too dark and murky. There is nothing wrong with them per se, but the black background sucks the images in, and they kind of drown visually.

Dunno if this is something to consider?

*edited to add*

What if instead of black background, you went to white, and darkened the same people images for better contrast?

Because I think the issue is low contrast in the covers, and too much black.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Okay, reading this very long, very important multi-page thread, I have such an easy solution to the ADULT filter situation, and oh, if only Amazon implemented it....

When a customer searches for a specific ADULT-dungeoned book in the general area, the search results should simply return a canned message:

*The book you are looking for is an adult title. It does not appear in general search results. Please shop the erotica category.
*
Voila!

Just enough to tell the customer it exists, but not enough to let someone underage or otherwise uninterested to see it.


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## NicoleSwan (Oct 2, 2011)

The trouble is, Amazon don't *want* to make any distinctions, or rules, or clarity in the erotica/porn arena, to do so limits their ability to act on impulse.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

NicoleSwan said:


> The trouble is, Amazon don't *want* to make any distinctions, or rules, or clarity in the erotica/porn arena, to do so limits their ability to act on impulse.


And that's the really sad part.

Because if they did as little as adding a canned message, it would really help the dungeon-ed books...


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## Mandy84 (May 14, 2013)

I've got two stories on Amazon with the adult tag. I just published my third and tamed down the description and it has not been marked adult. However, I am now afraid to add this title to my Author Central profile because I'm not sure if that will get it marked adult. Ie. are all titles associated with my author name going to be adult? For those of you who have Amazon stories that have been stamped as adult, do you have other stories that are not tied to the same Author Central page?


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## Mandy84 (May 14, 2013)

Diana & Lacey said:


> It's stamped on a per-title basis, not per author. I have some with and without adult tags under the same author name.


Thanks, glad to hear it. I'll add the new title to my Author Central account.

I wonder if books get re-reviewed when you submit a new description. I'm delighted to have this one not marked adult, but at the same time was unable to use any of the keywords that people would use to find the book, so it's not selling well anyway.


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## Mandy84 (May 14, 2013)

Diana & Lacey said:


> I hate to crush your soul, but I had one book live without the tag for a month. Then one day it was tagged. It went from selling 25-30/day to 1-5/day.... soul crushing. But I rolled with it and just kept writing.


To be fair, this one totally deserves the adult tag. I wouldn't mind it being tagged if they'd just tag all of the other adult books so it was an even playing field. But it's not. Some of the books that are not tagged have just about every infraction and I can't figure out why they haven't been tagged.


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## B.S. Borgess (May 15, 2014)

Did anyone ever start an erotic ebook store?


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Selena Kitt is trying. The site was up, to great joy, then down, then up, and I think down right now. She's trying to find an IT guy to do it right. So much author interest crashed it the first time I think. The second time things that were only supposed to be visible to her on the business side was visible to the public too. Just bugs being worked out. Last I heard, on one of her onehandedwriters.com posts, it's still in the works. Excitica.com is what it will be.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Yeah just checked it. 
Excitica.com
It says coming soon, but you can sign up for email notification when it goes live.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Although her other one, excessica.com is always up and running. 
Excessica is more like a smashwords or draft2digital, in that you can shop there but she'll distribute for you. Excitica, still to come, is supposed to be more like an amazon store for the down and dirty.


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