# Is Kindle Unlimited on the way out?



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I had an email this morning from Amazon offering me 3 months subscription to Kindle Unlimited for £1.99. This smacks of desperation to me, although I can't deny that I have taken them up on the offer.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

It's a loss leader, to get you hooked on the service. KU is a big funnel to Amazon, the everything store. They just want to get you into KU so you'll spend more time on the site and buy lots of other stuff. It's not as much about making money on the monthly KU charges.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TwistedTales said:


> I've seen them offering three free months. I'm guessing they're charging the notional fee of 1.99 to get your bank details. You'll need to be sure to stop the auto deductions when they try and up the price. You're in the U.K. and I'm not sure their take up for KU is good there.
> 
> Free and such heavy discounting doesn't send out a good message to the market. Whether they mean to or not, they're pretty much saying the books in KU aren't worth paying much for.


They've already got my bank details as it's the same card I use for all Amazon purchases.

I had Kindle Unlimited once before, but couldn't find much that I wanted to read so I cancelled after the first free month.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

PamelaKelley said:


> It's a loss leader, to get you hooked on the service. KU is a big funnel to Amazon, the everything store. They just want to get you into KU so you'll spend more time on the site and buy lots of other stuff. It's not as much about making money on the monthly KU charges.


All of which would be fine with me--if they realized their vendors actually needed to make money.

Initially, they offered a month fee. More recently, they have been cranking out an increasing number of three-month discounted offers. If they were getting enough people paying the full price to make them happy, I doubt they would be doing that. However, a pattern like that could also mean that they're finding KU customers really are big spenders on other things, in which case an effort to expand their numbers could really pay off. (Why not make more money on a loss leader if you can?)


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Bill Hiatt said:


> All of which would be fine with me--if they realized their vendors actually needed to make money.
> 
> Initially, they offered a month fee. More recently, they have been cranking out an increasing number of three-month discounted offers. If they were getting enough people paying the full price to make them happy, I doubt they would be doing that. However, a pattern like that could also mean that they're finding KU customers really are big spenders on other things, in which case an effort to expand their numbers could really pay off. (Why not make more money on a loss leader if you can?)


Like I said, KU is a funnel. And they've publicly said that KU subscribers are buying lots of other things. It's working really well. I'm one of those people...I order all kinds of stuff from Amazon now that I never used to...things I used to buy at my local grocer, like disposable cat litter boxes, tea, notebooks, all kinds of things.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

Doglover said:


> I had an email this morning from Amazon offering me 3 months subscription to Kindle Unlimited for £1.99. This smacks of desperation to me, although I can't deny that I have taken them up on the offer.


This is a free hit off a crack pipe. The goal is to get you addicted. In short, I don't think it's desperation; the stats probably tell Amazon that, say, 60% of people who sign up for KU keep it for a year. Thus, Amazon's goal may be to get as many sign-ups as possible, accepting that they'll lose some after the free trial but knowing that enough will remain to make the effort profitable.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

While I don't think KU will last forever, I do think it is our immediate future. It's not going anywhere. As for health, you can find opinions on either side of the spectrum and they pretty much follow whatever an individual poster happens to believe about going into KU as an *author *rather than a reader. From a reader perspective (and I read a lot, 3-5 books a week), I think KU is doing well. I know quite a few people enjoying the system as a reader (and these are people I know in real life, not readers). These are all 3+ books a week readers, too. I think for people who only read a book a month or so, KU is never going to be their thing. The authors who say it's not doing well seem to be relying on wish fulfillment, which I get but it's probably not particularly constructive.
The truth is, Amazon doesn't need KU to make a profit. They don't care about that. They don't care about one part making a set amount of money. They care about the whole machine (millions of parts) coming together to make money. As Pam said, KU is a funnel. They want people to come for the books and stay for the televisions. I would imagine it's working well. Strictly from a shopper's point of view, I'm buying things at Amazon (laundry stuff, cat litter, pool supplies, even hardware) that I never thought i would buy at Amazon. I think a lot of people are doing that these days if the anecdotal stories I'm hearing are true.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

KevinH said:


> This is a free hit off a crack pipe. The goal is to get you addicted. In short, I don't think it's desperation; the stats probably tell Amazon that, say, 60% of people who sign up for KU keep it for a year. Thus, Amazon's goal may be to get as many sign-ups as possible, accepting that they'll lose some after the free trial but knowing that enough will remain to make the effort profitable.


That might work, if it were not that I've already had the regular first month free last year and cancelled.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Perhaps they figure that they need to up their game and get people in their book ecosystem before the others get a foothold and start taking customers away from them. While some people can afford, and don't mind, paying out for various subscription services, others have a limited income, so people in KU are less likely to go look over at Apple for books.

It's going to be interesting to see what amazon do over the next year.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

And if you read Amazon's annual report, you'll note that KU is such a tiny piece of Amazon's income that it's not mentioned by name and lumped in with "annual and monthly fees associated with Amazon Prime membership, as well as audiobook, e-book, digital video, digital music, and other subscription services." And those services collectively have been growing year after year (2014--$2.7B, 2015--$4.4B, 2016--$6.3B).

Their subscription services aren't going anywhere any time soon.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Atlantisatheart said:


> Perhaps they figure that they need to up their game and get people in their book ecosystem before the others get a foothold and start taking customers away from them. While some people can afford, and don't mind, paying out for various subscription services, others have a limited income, so people in KU are less likely to go look over at Apple for books.
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see what amazon do over the next year.


People who have KU subscriptions are less likely to go to apple to buy stuff, not because they can't afford it, but because they are already buying stuff on Amazon. I own a MacAir and an iPhone, have a KU subscription and buy way too many books outside of KU, but all of them through Amazon, because it's easy. I can one-click and am already there.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm actually an Apple device person but I get all my books from Amazon. I have a MacBook Pro, an iPad, iPhone and iPod (and am going to order an iWatch very soon) but I'm book loyal to Amazon for convenience. I also have a Kindle and three Echos. I'm upgrading to an Oasis reader relatively soon for the pool. I guess I'm kind of split on the devices now that I really think about it. I never read in the Apple store at all, though. Every book I've read for the past four or five years has come from Amazon EXCEPT for the random books I've picked up from Barnes & Noble while there in person and some used paperbacks I ordered online for the pool (now that I'm getting the Oasis that will no longer happen).


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

They've been running sales for years. I got a year renewal at half price I think it was two years ago on Prime Day?


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm going to say no, but not for the reasons you think. I think the program is probably a major failure in terms of ROI for zon. But do I think they would shut it down and as such admit publicly that they failed? Highly unlikely. They'll take massive losses just so they aren't seen to have failed. If they do shut it down, it won't be a cold stop... they'll find a way to merge it with Prime or something.

That being said, it's truly laughable to think they are making it cheaper and cheaper to get into KU because KU is so successful. That's not how any of this works (ie. simple business principles).

I strongly encourage people to look into how Netflix has done things. They keep INCREASING their subscription fees because... they'd be idiotic not to, people are happy to pay more because they like Netflix.

Everything about KU is about it getting *cheaper*. Extending the free trial to two months or more. Offering 60% off on annual subscriptions. Lowering KENP rates. Modifying page counts. Implementing features to circumvent page count. Increasing cost of visibility (ie. milking authors via AMS). These are *not* the traits of a program that is wildly successful and which is flush with profit and customers lining up around the block to get in.

I do think KU will die the moment there is genuine competition that allows the unwashed masses to justify going wide. At that point, unless zon wants to absord tens of millions in losses just to save face, they'll effectively close the doors (but like I say, they'll flip the subscribers over to Prime or something).

The fact there are a handful of indies (ie. very very very small sample size) who do very well in KU has absolutely no bearing on the health of the program overall.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Amazon hasn't raised subscription prices for KU because that's not the program they're touting. KU is a very small portion of Prime. That's what they just raised prices on. As authors, we tend to see KU as a big thing. It's not. It's a tiny line item on Amazon's budget. They're interested in Prime, and KU is a way to sell Prime. That's what most authors don't seem to realize. Amazon cares about Prime bringing in money and customers. KU is simply a small way to help Prime do that.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Just to add to my last comment. I think the increase in competition we're seeing coming down the pike is due to inside baseball. I guarantee you kobo, apple, B&N, know the inside scoop on KU. 

If it was the juggernaut many seem to believe it is, I doubt others would be up for taking it on. I think they are up for the challenge because they know it's not nearly as successful as people are lead to believe. Although, just looking at the charts tells you that, KU is a niche-platform for heavy readers of specific genres. 

Remember, the people who work at KU are friends with others in the industry and you better believe they share tales over beers and what not. Not to mention people who directly leave zon and go work for the competition who spill the beans. That's what I'll never get about Bezos treating his own employees so badly... it's the fastest way to make sure they rat you out to the competition in hopes of getting off the slave ship. 

Everything points to KU being in trouble as we speak. But it will take a year before we see that weakness out in the open. 

Or maybe I'm wrong and it's a powerhouse and zon simply does all these things that make it seem otherwise because that's how they roll.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Amazon hasn't raised subscription prices for KU because that's not the program they're touting. KU is a very small portion of Prime. That's what they just raised prices on. As authors, we tend to see KU as a big thing. It's not. It's a tiny line item on Amazon's budget. They're interested in Prime, and KU is a way to sell Prime. That's what most authors don't seem to realize. Amazon cares about Prime bringing in money and customers. KU is simply a small way to help Prime do that.


They raised prices on the monthly fee to push people into the annual fee, which they did not raise fees on.

But regardless, if you have a program that people are signing up to in droves, you RAISE prices, you don't lower them (which extending free trials is basically a form of). You pay authors MORE so you can draw in more talent and make your offering even better (ie. exactly what Netflix has done).

The notion that the more successful zon is the more they cut their own revenue and margins, just makes zero business sense to me. Their behavior is exactly what you'd see from a program that is on shaky ground and trying to reach an inflection point of sustainability.

But I admit that zon often behaves in very illogical ways, so I'll accept the possibility that KU is hugely successful and zon is eroding profit regardless because, like i say, that's how they roll sometimes.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

I think this is all very true, and all very depressing. It does puzzle me why people will pay $120 a year to read second-rate fiction when they could get James Patterson and John Grisham etc free from the local e-brary. That's what I do, and I don't live in an especially enlightened state. I mean, if you're going to read rubbish, why not first-rate rubbish? I've just recently discovered that Icelandic thriller-writer, whathisname, The Shadow District man. That's good fun and well-written.

(And I love Amanda's distinction between readers and people she knows in real life, tee hee.)



Amanda M. Lee said:


> While I don't think KU will last forever, I do think it is our immediate future. It's not going anywhere. As for health, you can find opinions on either side of the spectrum and they pretty much follow whatever an individual poster happens to believe about going into KU as an *author *rather than a reader. From a reader perspective (and I read a lot, 3-5 books a week), I think KU is doing well. I know quite a few people enjoying the system as a reader (and these are people I know in real life, not readers). These are all 3+ books a week readers, too. I think for people who only read a book a month or so, KU is never going to be their thing. The authors who say it's not doing well seem to be relying on wish fulfillment, which I get but it's probably not particularly constructive.
> The truth is, Amazon doesn't need KU to make a profit. They don't care about that. They don't care about one part making a set amount of money. They care about the whole machine (millions of parts) coming together to make money. As Pam said, KU is a funnel. They want people to come for the books and stay for the televisions. I would imagine it's working well. Strictly from a shopper's point of view, I'm buying things at Amazon (laundry stuff, cat litter, pool supplies, even hardware) that I never thought i would buy at Amazon. I think a lot of people are doing that these days if the anecdotal stories I'm hearing are true.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Amazon hasn't raised subscription prices for KU because that's not the program they're touting. KU is a very small portion of Prime. That's what they just raised prices on. As authors, we tend to see KU as a big thing. It's not. It's a tiny line item on Amazon's budget. They're interested in Prime, and KU is a way to sell Prime. That's what most authors don't seem to realize. Amazon cares about Prime bringing in money and customers. KU is simply a small way to help Prime do that.


Exactly! After a blowout quarterly report last year, a spokesman for Amazon gave credit to Prime for making $$$.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

notjohn said:


> I think this is all very true, and all very depressing. It does puzzle me why people will pay $120 a year to read second-rate fiction when they could get James Patterson and John Grisham etc free from the local e-brary. That's what I do, and I don't live in an especially enlightened state. I mean, if you're going to read rubbish, why not first-rate rubbish? I've just recently discovered that Icelandic thriller-writer, whathisname, The Shadow District man. That's good fun and well-written.
> 
> (And I love Amanda's distinction between readers and people she knows in real life, tee hee.)


A lot of people don't read the 'rubbish' you read, I'm one of them. Mainstream, been there-read that books from trad's bore my socks off. Thankfully, there are indies. That's why amazon got a foothold because they publish stuff people actually want to read.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

notjohn said:


> It does puzzle me why people will pay $120 a year to read second-rate fiction when they could get James Patterson and John Grisham etc free from the local e-brary. That's what I do, and I don't live in an especially enlightened state. I mean, if you're going to read rubbish, why not first-rate rubbish?


notjohn, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it's hard for me to read this as other than an attempt to be rather extravagantly mean to your many fellow KBers who have books in KU.


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## Anna Drake (Sep 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> And if you read Amazon's annual report, you'll note that KU is such a tiny piece of Amazon's income that it's not mentioned by name and lumped in with "annual and monthly fees associated with Amazon Prime membership, as well as audiobook, e-book, digital video, digital music, and other subscription services." And those services collectively have been growing year after year (2014--$2.7B, 2015--$4.4B, 2016--$6.3B).
> 
> Their subscription services aren't going anywhere any time soon.


Interesting.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> While I don't think KU will last forever, I do think it is our immediate future. It's not going anywhere. As for health, you can find opinions on either side of the spectrum and they pretty much follow whatever an individual poster happens to believe about going into KU as an *author *rather than a reader. From a reader perspective (and I read a lot, 3-5 books a week), I think KU is doing well. I know quite a few people enjoying the system as a reader (and these are people I know in real life, not readers). These are all 3+ books a week readers, too. I think for people who only read a book a month or so, KU is never going to be their thing. The authors who say it's not doing well seem to be relying on wish fulfillment, which I get but it's probably not particularly constructive.
> The truth is, Amazon doesn't need KU to make a profit. They don't care about that. They don't care about one part making a set amount of money. They care about the whole machine (millions of parts) coming together to make money. As Pam said, KU is a funnel. They want people to come for the books and stay for the televisions. I would imagine it's working well. Strictly from a shopper's point of view, I'm buying things at Amazon (laundry stuff, cat litter, pool supplies, even hardware) that I never thought i would buy at Amazon. I think a lot of people are doing that these days if the anecdotal stories I'm hearing are true.


This ^^^^

KU is doing exactly what Amazon wants, which is tying people closer to the entire Amazon ecosystem. The program is likely to change over time, but it isn't going away anytime soon.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Arches said:


> This ^^^^
> 
> KU is doing exactly what Amazon wants, which is tying people closer to the entire Amazon ecosystem. The program is likely to change over time, but it isn't going away anytime soon.


what makes me chuckle with all this is that indies now view KU the way TP's viewed B&M. They ignored the impending risk amazon brought to the market and misunderstood consumer behavior. They thought they were king of the hill and no one could dethrone them.

Now indies feel that way about KU. It's their little fort knox and there's no way it can get robbed.

We'll see. If the program didn't have the flaws in it that it does, I might agree. But otherwise, the moment some real competition enters the market, it's anything but safe.

The other thing that makes me chuckle is that zon OWNS the ebook market and still can't raise the price on KU. That should tell you what the real state of the union is behind the scenes.

Either way, if KU dies it's not the end of the world. People can sell direct and still make money.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

UK customers are less attracted to Prime because of its delivery options as we do not have the big distances from the nearest depot in most of the five nations. I don't know what the US offering is, but Prime in the UK is Amazon Prime Video, Amazon Prime Music (a subset of Amazon Music Unlimited) and Amazon Prime Reading (a subset of Kindle Unlimited). So offering Kindle Unlimited on a cheap deal would give someone an insight into the wider book offering, just as the free month on Music Unlimited is constantly offered to me as a Prime Music user. Both Music Unlimited and Kindle Unlimited are the same price as Prime. It is likely that Prime Reading is killing off the British market for Kindle Unlimited and authors exclusive to Amazon should rejoice that their partner is seeking to grow the market, especially for those without books in Prime Reading.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I think for the most part, we're thinking about KU from the wrong perspective. it continues to be inexpensive, and Amazon continues to offer special subscription deals, because the subscribers are the product Amazon wants. As authors, we think of the books as the products, but Amazon's goal is to develop, build, and maintain a large subscriber base. 

The books are the incentive, but the subscribers are the product, and the low entry fees are to reduce the subscriber's resistance. 

Think of the publishing landscape as a collection of separate marketplaces. Ebooks are one marketplace. Print is another marketplace, and audible is a third marketplace. Anybody who can own a corner of that marketplace--by which i mean the product (the consumer) is exclusive--has captured something of value. Amazon's approach has always been to try and own exclusivity to a piece of a market. This is not so that they can make money on the subscribers; it's so that they can make money on the companies who want to enter that exclusive section of the marketplace.

Kindle Unlimited isn't going anywhere. The longer it lasts and the more stable it promises to be, the greater the likelihood Amazon will attract trad pub books, with contractual arrangements that are advantageous to Amazon.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> The other thing that makes me chuckle is that zon OWNS the ebook market and still can't raise the price on KU. That should tell you what the real state of the union is behind the scenes.


This is where the biggest error is made. You assume Amazon WANTS to raise the price on KU. It's not that they can't. It's that it doesn't fit their plan for the time being. It's not about KU. It's about Prime. That's where the rate increase will come, not to KU. KU is such a small part of their budget it's practically non-existent. Prime is the focus. That's where you need to look for answers.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is where the biggest error is made. You assume Amazon WANTS to raise the price on KU. It's not that they can't. It's that it doesn't fit their plan for the time being. It's not about KU. It's about Prime. That's where the rate increase will come, not to KU. KU is such a small part of their budget it's practically non-existent. Prime is the focus. That's where you need to look for answers.


Yep, KU is amazon's version of our free or reduced books, get those email address, get eyes on the products, and hook those customers.

I think we'll see KU-4-5-125, but they won't kill it unless outside forces do it for them by stealing all the mid-list authors away and losing customers because they have nothing left to offer.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is where the biggest error is made. You assume Amazon WANTS to raise the price on KU. It's not that they can't. It's that it doesn't fit their plan for the time being. It's not about KU. It's about Prime. That's where the rate increase will come, not to KU. KU is such a small part of their budget it's practically non-existent. Prime is the focus. That's where you need to look for answers.


Exactly, KU is Amazon's $0.99 lead-in.


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## 98368 (Sep 4, 2017)

Becca Mills said:


> notjohn, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it's hard for me to read this as other than an attempt to be rather extravagantly mean to your many fellow KBers who have books in KU.


I second that emotion.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2018)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I'm actually an Apple device person but I get all my books from Amazon. I have a MacBook Pro, an iPad, iPhone and iPod (and am going to order an iWatch very soon) but I'm book loyal to Amazon for convenience. I also have a Kindle and three Echos. I'm upgrading to an Oasis reader relatively soon for the pool. I guess I'm kind of split on the devices now that I really think about it. I never read in the Apple store at all, though. Every book I've read for the past four or five years has come from Amazon EXCEPT for the random books I've picked up from Barnes & Noble while there in person ...


Me too. I'm an Apple fanboy. I've also got a MacBook, an iPad, iPhone, and iPod. But, except for once in a blue moon when I pick up a book from Barnes & Noble or Half Price Books, I get all my books on my Zon Kindle. And I use Zon's Echoes (have 2 and changed the action word from "Alexa" to "Computer" so it's really cool like Star Trek &#128513 
I only read an average of 2 books a week but I'm still a huge Kindle fan/user. And, like Amanda Lee mentioned in her earlier post, it's probably not a coincidence that I too have bought an awful lot of junk er, stuff from Zon in the last 5 years or so -- I've had a Kindle for the last 6 years.


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## G.L. Snodgrass (Aug 12, 2014)

KU isn't going anywhere anytime soon. It continues to meet its objectives.

1. Bringing more people into the Amazon store and Prime
2. Stopping competing subscription models from taking market share from the Amazon book store.
3. An excuse for exclusivity. Amazon has the most books. Books you can't find at other stores.

These great selling points are achieved at very little cost. Why would they kill it?

KU meets Amazon objectives and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is where the biggest error is made. You assume Amazon WANTS to raise the price on KU. It's not that they can't. It's that it doesn't fit their plan for the time being. It's not about KU. It's about Prime. That's where the rate increase will come, not to KU. KU is such a small part of their budget it's practically non-existent. Prime is the focus. That's where you need to look for answers.


Not buying it, sorry 

Why charge $10 then? Why not $5? Or why not free with every kindle purchase or Prime subscription?

Why split some imaginary pot and have KENP rates? If it's a loss leader why not just cull the top books and pay them to be in KU?

There are soooo many ways you could increase KU membership ten-fold if you didn't care about the economic sustainability of the program.

This notion of KU as an entry point into the amazon store I've always thought to be a rather silly urban myth that is perpetuated as fact when as far as I can tell it is not. The notion that zon needs KU to draw people into the store is laughable. You could remove all books from amazon and the accountants at zon probably wouldn't even notice.

KU is nothing more than an attempt to corral the indies, keep them exclusive to amazon, and ultimately try to bend the TP's to amazon will. All this other rationalization people layer onto KU is wishful thinking.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

notjohn said:


> I think this is all very true, and all very depressing. It does puzzle me why people will pay $120 a year to read second-rate fiction when they could get James Patterson and John Grisham etc free from the local e-brary. That's what I do, and I don't live in an especially enlightened state. I mean, if you're going to read rubbish, why not first-rate rubbish? I've just recently discovered that Icelandic thriller-writer, whathisname, The Shadow District man. That's good fun and well-written.
> 
> (And I love Amanda's distinction between readers and people she knows in real life, tee hee.)


Second rate fiction?
Rubbish?
Pretty interesting.

Amanda refers to email she gets from readers/online conversation with readers, vs. people she knows in person. Some people get lots of mail from readers and have lots of conversations with them, which gives an insight into how readers view and use KU. I'm not sure what you intended here--perhaps to imply that the readers are imaginary? Or

I think those of us who do very well in KU are clear-eyed about it. We make enough money from it to be insulated against eventually having to go wide should something change, and meanwhile, it's a much easier path as you don't have to do nearly as much work to maintain it. If you make mid-five to six figures on borrows per month, especially with little ad spend--that's awfully hard to replicate wide without a lot of time and effort.

I tend to assume, personally, that others are capable of experimenting for themselves to find their own best path, and following that. It won't be the same for every author, including authors in the same genre. Why? Not sure. I write about as off-trend as anyone can, and Select works for me and always has. It doesn't work as well for other authors I know, so they chose a different path.

I will also acknowledge that the marketing opinions/industry analysis of people who do very, very well in this business over time carry more weight for me. But here on KBoards, that very success tends to get your opinion dismissed. Odd.

The insults are tiresome, though. A "tee-hee" about Amanda's opinion? The laughing emoticon above? One thing I'll point out that many successful authors, male and female, have noticed is that successful male authors are listened to much more respectfully than successful female authors, especially in this space. Next time you're tempted to write "tee-hee" or make a laughing emoticon to signal your disdain of a female six- or seven-figure indie's opinion, you might pause and think about that.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I will also acknowledge that the marketing opinions/industry analysis of people who do very, very well in this business over time carry more weight for me. But here on KBoards, that very success tends to get your opinion dismissed. Odd.


except that when it comes to "successful" authors the sample size is so small that it's nearly meaningless.

Should i write one book online chapter by chapter, then publish on zon, and expect that I'll get a movie starring Matt Damon? Obviously not. So success doesn't always equal a template for success.

I'm not saying to ignore successful people, merely that we have to understand the full scope of how and why they were successful. Too often on kboards it's cover+blurb+ write fast+ market hard = success.

But we all know that's not true as plenty of people do that and don't succeed, even though a small handful do (and while its a small number it appears big because those authors are very vocal about making sure everyone knows how successful they are).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> except that when it comes to "successful" authors the sample size is so small that it's nearly meaningless.
> 
> Should i write one book online chapter by chapter, then publish on zon, and expect that I'll get a movie starring Matt Damon? Obviously not. So success doesn't always equal a template for success.
> 
> ...


It's a wonder that anybody who does well posts here at all. Almost all of them have left. One guess why. Yet a few are still swinging, trying to help others succeed. I wrote specific-you a post trying to help just yesterday, and we still get this kind of sneer back.

There really is not a secret to how to do this business. Not everyone who does it will succeed, just as not everybody who aims at the NFL will get there. However, the people who do get there will share certain qualities and habits. All you can do is put forth your best efforts. Many, many of us have gone to the trouble to write detailed posts (in the Helpful Posts sticky thread above) about our path. Does that mean personal-you will get there? Nope. Not necessarily. But if you write books lots of people want to read, produce them on a regular schedule, present them very well, and find a way to get them visible, you've got a SHOT. We've tried to lay out some possible paths to help others, as we were helped when we were searching for the path ourselves. But sometimes, you have to wonder why you bother.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> KU is nothing more than an attempt to corral the indies, keep them exclusive to amazon, and ultimately try to bend the TP's to amazon will. All this other rationalization people layer onto KU is wishful thinking.


It's not wishful thinking, it's sensible market analysis. "...an attempt to corral the indies" is not a sensible market analysis, it's tin-foil-hat alarmism.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

GeneDoucette said:


> It's not wishful thinking, it's sensible market analysis. "...an attempt to corral the indies" is not a sensible market analysis, it's tin-foil-hat alarmism.


Other than it's exactly what amazon has done. But I WILL put on a tin foil hat and say that I suspect the Kobo walmart deal has more to do with TP's than it does indies. We think we're the game, we aren't. The "talent" (which still primarily resides in the TP world) are the prize people are after (including zon).

Evidence that KU is some entry point into the wider store is non-existent. That's tin-foil hat in that there is no proof that's the intent of the program or that it's performing that function, merely that indies have repeated the notion so many times that it's now taken as fact. And it's taken as fact because it conveniently explains away a lot of the gripes people have with KU... "amazon isn't running KU based on business fundementals because it's really a trojan horse into the zon ecosystem."

Yes, one of the biggest companies in the world run by the richest man in the world need Tim, Dick and Harry's self-published book to grow their customer base.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> We've tried to lay out some possible paths to help others, as we were helped when we were searching for the path ourselves. But sometimes, you have to wonder why you bother.


I don't know why when some joe-blow like me disagrees with you, you always have to throw otu the "ohhhh i've helped so many people and you don't appreciate it... why do i even bother."

Me disagreeing with you on something isn't some admonishment of you. We disagree. Not sure why that can't be seen as a simple difference of opinion.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> I don't know why when some joe-blow like me disagrees with you, you always have to throw otu the "ohhhh i've helped so many people and you don't appreciate it... why do i even bother."
> 
> Me disagreeing with you on something isn't some admonishment of you. We disagree. Not sure why that can't be seen as a simple difference of opinion.


Tone matters.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Seneca42 said:


> *Other than it's exactly what amazon has done*. But I WILL put on a tin foil hat and say that I suspect the Kobo walmart deal has more to do with TP's than it does indies. We think we're the game, we aren't. The "talent" (which still primarily resides in the TP world) are the prize people are after (including zon).


well, no, that's not an objectively factual statement at all. That's an interpretation forwarded by a number of people on this board. That doesn't mean it's true. Amazon isn't forcefully corralling indies into their market. They created a new market (within the larger ebook market) and decided to reward people a certain way for participating in that market.

Active antagonism toward the largest bookseller in the United States isn't productive or useful. Creating narratives where 'we' are all being abused in some way by one of the distributors of the books we write doesn't help anybody. It is not the case where we all have to rise up against the oppressor (or whatever) because we aren't being oppressed. We're part of a changing market, and we have to adapt to the changes, and the changes aren't personal. That's all.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Usedtoposthere said:


> We've tried to lay out some possible paths to help others, as we were helped when we were searching for the path ourselves. But sometimes, you have to wonder why you bother.


I guess because we hope there's some infinitesimal chance a newbie will read through the dross and find useful, actionable advice.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

kw3000 said:


> I for one don't really care if KU exists or it doesn't. I don't try to rationalize it's existence or engage in wishful thinking, I try to see it for what it is. Can you say the same if your stance is that you'd like to see KU die?


I'm anti anything that commodifies earnings and which has no mechanisms of accountability, much less transparency, associated to it.

I was very negative about Kobo launching a subscription service. And I love how kobo does business. I've also been very vocal that I think amazon is fantastic on the direct selling side. I'm a very happy camper on that front.

It only seems like i'm anti-KU because it's the only sub model (really) in the market. If all the other vendors launched sub models, I'd be just as anti-kobo or anti-apple in terms of those models (because subscription models erode margin with nothing but the promise of increased volume to offset it).

The fact you don't care whether KU exists or not, to me, simply says you don't care what the underlying business structure is within the ebook market. I don't mean to be rude in saying that, but KU sits at the crossroads of whether publishing values content or whether everything gets turned into 2-week production style content mills. It's a big deal.


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

Amazon reported net earnings of $12,219,000,000 from AWS in 2016. 

In 2014, Forbes estimated that Amazon made around $530,000,000 on e-book sales. If you translate that into net sales, it would be around $1,760,000,000. Even if that figure was doubled, and had increased 20% each of the the next 3 years, it would still be around $6,083,000,000, less than half the net income AWS and only 4.5% of the $135,987,000,000 net income that Amazon reported for 2016.

E-books are a very minor source of revenue for Amazon. And Kindle Unlimited even more so.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Seneca42 said:


> There are soooo many ways you could increase KU membership ten-fold if you didn't care about the economic sustainability of the program.
> 
> This notion of KU as an entry point into the amazon store I've always thought to be a rather silly urban myth that is perpetuated as fact when as far as I can tell it is not. The notion that zon needs KU to draw people into the store is laughable. You could remove all books from amazon and the accountants at zon probably wouldn't even notice.
> 
> KU is nothing more than an attempt to corral the indies, keep them exclusive to amazon, and ultimately try to bend the TP's to amazon will. All this other rationalization people layer onto KU is wishful thinking.


This seems like a straw man, Seneca. Amazon doesn't have to have _zero_ concern for KU's cost in order for the program to be functioning primarily as a loss-leader for the site. Amazon's net profit margins are minuscule (or even non-existent) compared to other major corporations, so it's hardly in a position to ignore costs recklessly. But that doesn't mean it isn't willing to spend. Clearly it is, and KU could well be one of the carefully calibrated costs it has decided to take on. It seems likely to me that Amazon looked at the costs and benefits of the program and decided that $10/month for readers and a half-cent/page for authors is the point at which benefits best justify costs.

Also, the claims that "You could remove all books from amazon and the accountants at zon probably wouldn't even notice" and "KU is nothing more than an attempt to ... bend the TP's to amazon will" are mutually contradictory. If books were negligible as an element of Amazon's retail presence, then it wouldn't care what trad pubs do.

I do think we could overestimate the importance of books to Amazon, and especially indie books. But that doesn't mean we have no value at all.



Seneca42 said:


> The fact you don't care whether KU exists or not, to me, simply says you don't care what the underlying business structure is within the ebook market. I don't mean to be rude in saying that, but KU sits at the crossroads of whether publishing values content or whether everything gets turned into 2-week production style content mills. It's a big deal.


I share your frustration with the lack of transparency and accountability in programs like KU, but I think readers are the decision-makers when it comes to the direction of the market. If they didn't like whatever books you're disparaging above, they wouldn't be downloading and reading them (assuming you're not talking about click-farm scams, etc.). We need to be careful with the leap between "I don't like X" and "X objectively sucks." There is no _objectively_ when it comes to taste.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

I'm always amazed at how much attention Seneca42's posts receive. lol


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Also, the claims that "You could remove all books from amazon and the accountants at zon probably wouldn't even notice" and "KU is nothing more than an attempt to ... bend the TP's to amazon will" are mutually contradictory. If books were negligible as an element of Amazon's retail presence, then it wouldn't care what trad pubs do.


Well its negligible to amazon, not to the TPs where books are their core and only business. My point was that KU isn't about generating revenue. Nor is it a loss leader or gateway (if anything papa zon is driving traffic into baby KU, not the other way around). It's a vehicle for attempting to commodify and *control* the publishing industry. And honestly, the commodification may only be in service to eroding TP's current control (or what control they have left). It's always been about the TP's because they have the world-class talent; they've got the real money makers. Zon only uses us little indies to try and get those TP's to deal with zon on their terms.

It's a bit early, but I secretly suspect this walbo deal is tied to the TP's. Zon went too far with KU and the industry has had enough. But jury's out on that.

Anyway, I've always been open to seeing KU as something positive, but other than a short-term niche play I remain convinced it's a pox on all our houses. But I may have to change that view... perhaps it will turn out that it was the driving force that brought walbo into existence


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

So basically, trade pubs have the "world class talent" and those of us with books in KU write "second rate fiction" and "rubbish." Got it.

That's what I love about my fellow authors on KBoards: they treat each other with SO much professional respect.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

LadyG said:


> So basically, trade pubs have the "world class talent" and those of us with books in KU write "second rate fiction" and "rubbish." Got it.
> 
> That's what I love about my fellow authors on KBoards: they treat each other with SO much professional respect.


come on now. None of us are Stephen King or JK Rowling. That's just how it is. And even those who are as good as King, aren't, because they don't have the resources polishing the work that he does.

Getting upset over calling TP authors world-class is like getting upset at calling super models beautiful. They are at the very TOP of this game called publishing. That's just reality.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> come on now. None of us are Stephen King or JK Rowling. That's just how it is. And even those who are as good as King, aren't, because they don't have the resources polishing the work that he does.
> 
> Getting upset over calling TP authors world-class is like getting upset at calling super models beautiful. They are at the very TOP of this game called publishing. That's just reality.


There are indie authors consistently making 8 figures a year. There are many making 6 or 7. 
That argument's simply ridiculous. The average SELLING indie author makes a lot more than a midlist tradpub author (which is why so many are switching over...)
And many of us are hybrids--published both traditionally and indie, or formerly trad and now indie, because it's so much more lucrative. Our indie work isn't "rubbish" while our tradpub work is "world class." Again--ridiculous.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Usedtoposthere said:


> There are indie authors consistently making 8 figures a year. There are many making 6 or 7.
> That argument's simply ridiculous. The average SELLING indie author makes a lot more than a midlist tradpub author (which is why so many are switching over...)


hehe we have different definitions of crazy


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> hehe we have different definitions of crazy


You wonder why I have trouble with you? Because you mock and jeer at others. That's unacceptable. I do not mock you, and neither do others. You can't have civilized discourse in an environment of mockery, as our political situation in the United States shows.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Seneca42 said:


> hehe we have different definitions of crazy


Y'know, adding that little "he he" doesn't take the sting (or the disrespect) out of your insults. Seriously, if you think so poorly of Indies, why are you here? It's one thing to express an opinion; it's something else entirely to just be vicious.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

LadyG said:


> Y'know, adding that little "he he" doesn't take the sting (or the disrespect) out of your insults. Seriously, if you think so poorly of Indies, why are you here? It's one thing to express an opinion; it's something else entirely to just be vicious.


If I say to someone they aren't as beautiful as a super model I'm not calling them ugly. It's just a fact. I'm an indie. How in the world can i be bashing indies when I'm an indie?

You guys are incredibly easy to offend.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Seneca42 said:


> You guys are incredibly easy to offend.


Seneca, in this environment, the goal is not to discover how easy people are to offend. It's to be kind. Please lay off the boundary-pushing, so the thread doesn't get shut down.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Seneca, in this environment, the goal is not to discover how easy people are to offend. It's to be kind. Please lay off the boundary-pushing, so the thread doesn't get shut down.


Maybe the thread isn't the one deserving to get shut down, though...


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Puddleduck said:


> I get frequent pop-ups badgering me to join KU, and there's no way to say "stop showing me this". That does kind of smack of desperation to me.


Except if you're not in Prime, that's exactly what happens with it. I subscribed for a year a while back, then canceled because all I ever used was the free, supposedly 2-day shipping, which a couple of times turned into a week - 10 days once. So I canceled. Not long after, I began to be offered a 30-day free trial every time I was near the site. Finally I ordered something that would be nice to have fast, so I did the 30 days, and when I went to cancel that, they offered a 2d 30 days. I understand Prime is pretty successful, so are those offers signs of desperation?

Also, I'm another one who would like to say to those who are very successful and have hung tough here on KBoards - please don't let a vocal, snide minority drive you away. You are appreciated.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Seneca, in this environment, the goal is not to discover how easy people are to offend. It's to be kind. Please lay off the boundary-pushing, so the thread doesn't get shut down.


no problem. Just for the record, I'm not trying to upset people. So sorry if that's what happened.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2018)

LadyG said:


> So basically, trade pubs have the "world class talent" and those of us with books in KU write "second rate fiction" and "rubbish." Got it.
> That's what I love about my fellow authors on KBoards: they treat each other with SO much professional respect.


 (LadyG was quoting in counterpoint somebody else. She's not making the rubbish etc claims just fyi)


Seneca42 said:


> Getting upset over calling TP authors world-class is like getting upset at calling super models beautiful. They are at the very TOP of this game called publishing. That's just reality.


This sort of thinking is rubbish. It's a first class cabin on the Carnival Cruise of Crazy thinking! 
Do you really think that Mark Dawson, Russel Blake, and Wayne Stinnet don't stand up well to James Patterson, Brad Thor, and Daniel Silva?
Or that Kristen Painter's Miss Frost, Jana DeLeon's Miss Fortune, and Amanda Lee's Witches of the Midwest aren't every bit as good as, or better than, Leighann Dobbs, HY Hanna, or TE Kinsey? Seriously?! Have you read them? 
Or that Domino Finn, Izzy Shows, and Annie Bellet aren't every bit as good and engrossing as Jeaniene Frost, Seanan McGuire, or Benedict Jacka? 
And there are countless more examples. These just popped into my head.
I suggest that those who think that indie authors are not, as a rule, up to the caliber of traditional authors very likely haven't read their indie colleagues. I've read books from every author on kboards that I've been able to identify. I've also been an avid reader since I was swept into the magical world of fiction at age 7 by the book Watership Down. The aforementioned, and many more indies on kboards, compare quite favorably to their trad published counterparts.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mylius Fox said:


> Maybe the thread isn't the one deserving to get shut down, though...


Perhaps not, but it's a good general rule -- if you're enjoying a particular discussion, work to preserve it. 

Folks, let's move on from hashing over notjohn's and/or Seneca42's comments about the quality of KU/indie books.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Trade publishing houses do put some books in Kindle Unlimited. Via Prime Reading I have very much enjoyed Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference In Prime Reading it was recommended the first time I looked, but when subscribing to Kindle Unlimited I had no notion it was in there. I am sure there is a lot more trade published stuff I've wanted to read for years waiting to be discovered. Possibly the advent of Prime Reading has persuaded more trade publishers to push back catalogues in for a boost.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2018)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Trade publishing houses do put some books in Kindle Unlimited.


Yip. I started off trad published, and that publisher puts their entire catalogue in KU (which they did to access exclusive publisher benefits for doing so, like a guaranteed number of KDD deals per month). The main reason I bought my rights back and went indie was because KU was fantastic for the publisher's bottom line, but it did nothing for mine.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

It appears Amazon's 1.99 offer is an attempt to lock up as much of the reading market as possible before Apple gets more serious about ebooks. This headline may have alarmed those who run KU:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-25/apple-is-said-to-ready-revamped-e-books-push-against-amazon


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## anikad (Sep 19, 2017)

As someone who had a KU subs because they got three months free last year, and has been inundated with free months or cheap months offers, it does seem like you are fool if you pay full price for KU. I quit KU because I just kept tripping over tripe. I read romance and I couldn't find any well written romance to read. Amazon's search is rubbish. The top 100 lists are blah. Reviews can't be trusted. I'm sure there is well written romance there in KU but it seems to be outnumbered 100 to 1 with tripe. I don't know if I'm typical or atypical but Amazon does seem to be stepping up the free / cheap KU offers.


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## Ryan W. Mueller (Jul 14, 2017)

I think the quality of KU titles is highly dependent on genre. I've found a lot of good fantasy in KU. I don't spend much time around the other genres, so I don't know too much about them.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Ryan W. Mueller said:


> I think the quality of KU titles is highly dependent on genre. I've found a lot of good fantasy in KU. I don't spend much time around the other genres, so I don't know too much about them.


I've been happy with KU's selection of UF, fantasy, and sci-fi. A ton of good non-fiction too.


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## DonovanJeremiah (Oct 14, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> I guess because we hope there's some infinitesimal chance a newbie will read through the dross and find useful, actionable advice.


We do. Please don't stop.


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## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

Has anyone considered the "3 months for 1.99" is a(n admittedly low) barrier to entry to try to control the clickfarm/bot accounts that use the "one free month" with a disposable email address in order to sell services falsely inflating page reads?

Has anyone considered that KU is not only a lending library you pay for, but also an infomercial channel you pay to use? Any time I go to an Amazon book description page, I see about 40% of its real estate devoted to Things That Are Not That Book--other books, sponsored books, product display books, three or four little ribbons with other departments, products, and streaming/digital content. All things to attract me from the page (one-click? Maybe not? Doesn't matter--I'm paying them for my eyeballs on the stuff they want me to want, AND I'm paying them to take my habitual information--how long I stay on the page, where I stop scrolling, the heat map of where I'm clicking versus where I'm not, etc).

But I'm also paying them so I can access nonfiction and indie publishing guides, many of which would cost me more than I currently make in book sales, so there's that. I'm getting a little, they're getting a little (more than I'd like to, but it is what it is).


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## &quot;Serious&quot; ... but not really (Aug 14, 2017)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> This is where the biggest error is made. You assume Amazon WANTS to raise the price on KU. It's not that they can't. It's that it doesn't fit their plan for the time being. It's not about KU. It's about Prime. That's where the rate increase will come, not to KU. KU is such a small part of their budget it's practically non-existent. Prime is the focus. That's where you need to look for answers.


Hey Amanda. I am Prime. I wished Prime was auto-KU too. But Prime has Prime books (saw one of yours there). So if Prime is auto KU too ... I would stay with Prime for sure. Prime does pay for itself alone on shipping and I do pick up some non-fiction Prime books. Prime books are slow to show up with new ones.

KU as a part of Prime would be neat. Maybe they will go to that and still KU could be open to just people that want KU only.

Or it could be KU sign up price is really low if you are Prime. I have not checked.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Picky Android said:


> Hey Amanda. I am Prime. I wished Prime was auto-KU too. But Prime has Prime books (saw one of yours there). So if Prime is auto KU too ... I would stay with Prime for sure. Prime does pay for itself alone on shipping and I do pick up some non-fiction Prime books. Prime books are slow to show up with new ones.
> 
> KU as a part of Prime would be neat. Maybe they will go to that and still KU could be open to just people that want KU only.
> 
> Or it could be KU sign up price is really low if you are Prime. I have not checked.


I'm not talking about Prime Reading. I'm talking about the program Amazon Prime.


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

KU isn't a loss leader.

Amazon controls the cost through the pool. It doesn't matter if a hundred million people signed up, they can manipulate the pool however they choose. Change the numbers however they choose. Add or not add to the fund however they choose.

There is no loss (for them) in the equation. They can throw whatever they want at a wall and see what sticks. If those people stay as subscribers they win. If they don't, they lose nothing.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

A.R. Williams said:


> KU isn't a loss leader.
> 
> Amazon controls the cost through the pool. It doesn't matter if a hundred million people signed up, they can manipulate the pool however they choose. Change the numbers however they choose. Add or not add to the fund however they choose.
> 
> There is no loss (for them) in the equation. They can throw whatever they want at a wall and see what sticks. If those people stay as subscribers they win. If they don't, they lose nothing.


This is what people don't seem to understand for some reason (but as you state it quite obviously). KU is a rounding error on amazon's ledger. In fact, people buying direct from amazon actually puts *more* money in their pocket. But right now, that's not their focus (ie. making as much money as possible), rather it's putting the squeeze on the rest of the publishing industry by devaluing (ie. commodifying) books. They're trying to bankrupt their competition as it were by making their product worth almost nothing.

But at the core of this strategy is they need enough quality content to keep the subscribers around. And hence we come full circle as indies run to cut their own throats by enabling zon's commodification strategy, all the while thinking they are making out because there's money on the table today (telling themselves they'll just go "wide" if zon screws them too hard... not realizing there won't be a wide to go to).

What zon failed to account for though, was the scammers, botters, and grey and black hat tactics indies would use. But no matter how broken KU gets, so long as it's driving down the price of books, it's serving its function of putting the squeeze on the TP's and zon's competitors.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Seneca42 said:


> What zon failed to account for though, was the scammers, botters, and grey and black hat tactics indies would use. But no matter how broken KU gets, so long as it's driving down the price of books, it's serving its function of putting the squeeze on the TP's and zon's competitors.


Authors are also guilty of driving down book prices. Take PNR, when I started six years ago everyone priced at 0.99 to be seen, but because more and more authors came into the genre they kept the 0.99 price tag. 0.99 was fine back in the day because those books were novellas, now you have 50-60k novels for the low-low price of 0.99.

When amazon stole the 50% pages and introduced the page-flip scam I raised most of my prices to 2.99, guess what, they still sell. Amazon doesn't like permafree because it makes KU and free days less effective, but authors don't listen and still have permafree.

There are a lot of problems with amazon across the board, and I'm not a fan of their tactics. I'd like all of my pages counted and paid for, but I'd also like them to toss those permafree books out on their backside. They don't need to price match if they just get rid of those books.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Seneca42 said:


> This is what people don't seem to understand for some reason (but as you state it quite obviously). KU is a rounding error on amazon's ledger. In fact, people buying direct from amazon actually puts *more* money in their pocket. But right now, that's not their focus (ie. making as much money as possible), rather it's putting the squeeze on the rest of the publishing industry by devaluing (ie. commodifying) books. They're trying to bankrupt their competition as it were by making their product worth almost nothing.
> 
> But at the core of this strategy is they need enough quality content to keep the subscribers around. And hence we come full circle as indies run to cut their own throats by enabling zon's commodification strategy, all the while thinking they are making out because there's money on the table today (telling themselves they'll just go "wide" if zon screws them too hard... not realizing there won't be a wide to go to).
> 
> What zon failed to account for though, was the scammers, botters, and grey and black hat tactics indies would use. But no matter how broken KU gets, so long as it's driving down the price of books, it's serving its function of putting the squeeze on the TP's and zon's competitors.


KU is a giant funnel to get people to spend more time at Amazon and buy more stuff. It's pretty simple and it's working. It was a while ago that I read an interview that fascinated me because it said that they studied the buying patterns of KU subscribers, looking at 60 days before joining, and then 60 days after joining.....and purchase of other books alone were up by 25%. It makes sense. If you're on the site more.....you're likely to buy more.

_Edited quotation only. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've edited and deleted a number of posts that ignored my earlier directive. Any additional pursuit of the "Are KU books good/bad?" issue will result in closure of the thread.

Seneca42, you're banned from further participation in this one.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2018)

Ok, this is very interesting:



> This is what people don't seem to understand for some reason (but as you state it quite obviously). KU is a rounding error on amazon's ledger. In fact, people buying direct from amazon actually puts more money in their pocket. But right now, that's not their focus (ie. making as much money as possible), rather it's putting the squeeze on the rest of the publishing industry by devaluing (ie. commodifying) books. They're trying to bankrupt their competition as it were by making their product worth almost nothing.
> 
> But at the core of this strategy is they need enough quality content to keep the subscribers around. And hence we come full circle as indies run to cut their own throats by enabling zon's commodification strategy, all the while thinking they are making out because there's money on the table today (telling themselves they'll just go "wide" if zon screws them too hard... not realizing there won't be a wide to go to).
> 
> What zon failed to account for though, was the scammers, botters, and grey and black hat tactics indies would use. But no matter how broken KU gets, so long as it's driving down the price of books, it's serving its function of putting the squeeze on the TP's and zon's competitors.


I had not thought of this at all. However, this makes perfect sense

Consider the following

FIRST: Books as a product

SECOND: Pages Read as the count of usage of that product

THIRD: Authors supplying books as the product supply line

FOURTH: A Move to turn this supply into an unmatchable advantage

What would that move be?

It can't be higher prices. Because then anyone can come in and compete

On the other hand - a combination of lowering prices and making the suppliers more dependent on existing market leader -> that's a very strong commoditization strategy

In general?

What does a market leader that has achieved efficiencies of scale do? to drive out/kill competition

Answer: Drive down prices, to the point that they are unsustainable for any new entrant

***********************

Seneca might be spot on.

If books are being viewed as a 'supply' and authors as 'suppliers'
then a commoditization strategy and driving prices down non-stop achieves dual roles

a) Makes suppliers more dependent on the subscription model 
b) Makes it very hard for new entrants to compete

*****************************

I think it's very important to break it into two parts

A) Authors who are benefiting from KU

B) Authors who are going to keep benefiting from KU for a long long time

If you're in B then - great.
If you're in A, it's important to figure out if you're in B or not. If not, then have some backup plan

************

Amazon is profitable when including Amazon Web Services - around $247 million a quarter
Without AWS it's not profitable

KU prices being lowered massively - it could mean anything

* It could mean it's driving lots of sales of other products
* It could mean there's a certain minimum number of subscribers required and Amazon is scrambling to achieve that
* It could mean KU is dying
* It could mean KU is doing super well and Amazon wants to grow even more

***********************

However, the one thing that makes no sense is

- Why are all of WalMart/Kobo, Apple, Nook all suddenly re-entering books. Literally all in the same week

It seems someone somewhere leaked some information in Nov or Dec and everyone is jumping in

Is that information

- people buying books are also buying lots of other things?
- there is a weakness in Amazon's position?
- something else?

Oct 2017 is also when rank yanking started (and other stuff that authors don't know about but is tangentially related)

So something has happened in Oct and Nov and Dec 2017 which

- Has made Amazon move much more rashly in their moves (when it comes to ebooks)
- Has woken up WalMart, Apple, Nook to ebooks again

**********************
Wish we had access to the data these 4 companies have

my money would be on either

a) ebooks are working super well as loss leaders and leading to a lot of retention and stickiness of customers
OR
b) there was a structural flaw found in Amazon's ebook strategy and Amazon is planning a major change (not sure what) and everyone else sees it as an opportunity to attack


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

P.J. Post said:


> We need to figure out a way to discuss the realities of our industry without everyone taking personal offense to every comment made while discussing the "aggregate", because that's the only way to discuss what's going on. The aggregate isn't any one of us, it's all of us and none of us. Anecdotes are fun and super inspiring, but sometimes they're useless to a broader analysis. If I were to ask you to analyze the phenomenon that was Wool and give me a step by step process on how to recreate that success, you'd fail, woefully so. It's impossible, because, like many of these anecdotes, the enviroment for success is rarely explored in its entirety, partly because this is a forum and not a memoir, but mostly because the author has no clue what really happened or why. Causality is tricky to define.
> 
> For example, it's easy to understand success for anyone that's been getting Bookbubs routinely for the last few years. But, obviously, you have to be doing something right to get the Bookbubs in the first place - and this is what I'm talking about. We shouldn't have to attach caveat disclaimers to every observation lest we inadvertently offend someone. I think it's common knowledge, and if it's not, it should be, that if someone is getting Bookbubs all the time, they're probably doing a whole bunch of things really well - they're almost certainly earning it. But then again, one feeds the other, so it's hard to know which thing initially got the ball rolling. <insert caveat>
> 
> ...


I do think some aspects of the topic are worth discussing, P.J. But there is, on the one hand, thoughtful, nuanced discussion of what aesthetic quality means and what the KU readership seems to want and how those two elements may or may not interact, and on the other hand, there's, you know ... remarks that don't seem so thoughtful and nuanced, or that seem to target particular people. Those who can't (or choose not to) manage their tone well enough to avoid giving offense are going to have difficulty discussing topics that have the potential to inflame. Demanding others not get offended is ineffective, IMO. One has to find a way to convey one's ideas without giving offense, even when dealing with touchy subject matter. If one can't do that, then there's no chance of winning over other people, and if one's not in the conversation to win others over to one's view, why is one even talking?

There's quite a bit here that's still open for discussion, including the OP's question as to whether KU's in financial dire straits.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Athena Grayson said:


> Has anyone considered the "3 months for 1.99" is a(n admittedly low) barrier to entry to try to control the clickfarm/bot accounts that use the "one free month" with a disposable email address in order to sell services falsely inflating page reads?
> 
> Has anyone considered that KU is not only a lending library you pay for, but also an infomercial channel you pay to use? Any time I go to an Amazon book description page, I see about 40% of its real estate devoted to Things That Are Not That Book--other books, sponsored books, product display books, three or four little ribbons with other departments, products, and streaming/digital content. All things to attract me from the page (one-click? Maybe not? Doesn't matter--I'm paying them for my eyeballs on the stuff they want me to want, AND I'm paying them to take my habitual information--how long I stay on the page, where I stop scrolling, the heat map of where I'm clicking versus where I'm not, etc).
> 
> But I'm also paying them so I can access nonfiction and indie publishing guides, many of which would cost me more than I currently make in book sales, so there's that. I'm getting a little, they're getting a little (more than I'd like to, but it is what it is).


Just where else do you propose Amazon put our advertising that we have paid for? Or is there somewhere else you would like the 'also boughts' that many people rely on for that advertising?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

One of the challenges of a thread like this is that a lot of the time, things that are opinion are stated as if they were unalloyed fact, as a way to support other opinions as if they were unalloyed facts.

It's an opinion that books are being devalued in a race to the bottom. It's an opinion that Amazon is trying to break the spirit of indie authors and has introduced KU to destroy their competitors. It's an opinion that page flip is stealing money from indie authors. it's an opinion that Amazon has some sort of master plan endgame of evil or whatever.

Another of the challenges is that sometimes, disagreement with a strongly-held opinion is considered absurd, or an indication that the contrary opinion is held by someone who's being foolish. 

And finally, when some of us are identified as being 'part of the problem' for actively supporting and participating in a marketplace that others among us have a negative opinion about... well, that's a challenge too.


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

That's not desperation. It's domination.

"Your margin is my opportunity."

Bezos will continue doing exactly as he's done, until he either dies, or the government stops him. Bet against him at your own risk.


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## Sati_LRR (Jul 10, 2017)

Doglover said:


> Just where else do you propose Amazon put our advertising that we have paid for? Or is there somewhere else you would like the 'also boughts' that many people rely on for that advertising?


I think the point they were making is that the product pages are no longer product pages. They are instead an "everything-page", trying to shoe-horn a large section of the store into each one, which only makes things worse and devalues any advertisement that people pay for. What's the point if you're competing against _hundreds_ of other products on that same page?

And it's a lot worse than 40% too. There is only ONE main place (three if you count a KU button and the gifting button) where you can buy my book. Yet literally hundreds of other links/covers that entice the consumer away from that product.

Last time I checked this was what I saw on my product pages:

*Advertisement* banner (normally Amazon related - prime/kindle unlimited/prime student sign up offer)
The actual book with the buy widget on the right
*Advertisement* for an UNRELATED author beneath my book's blurb and particulars -- normally this is a text based ad or has a small book cover
Book Series widget (if there is one) & a Boxed *Advertisment* under the Buy/Add to List widget
Also-Boughts "_advertisment_" carousel once they've kicked in 
Sponsored Products *Advertisement* carousel
Product details
Author Bio
Another! Sponsored Products *Advertisement *carousel
Single *Advertisement* banner for variety of non-related book stuff (clothes/shoes/bags etc)
Reviews & Box *Advertisement* with a cover and that book's star review rating! WTF (It looks like at a glance that the 1 star review in that book's ad is part of my book's review: https://i.imgur.com/VedWVQe.png)
Amazon Giveaway Section
Also-Views carousel "_advertisement_" (even when there's already an AB carousel)
What other's buy after viewing widget "_advertisements_" -- which can be considered another section to get you off the page and onto another one!
Feedback Section
Your recently viewed items and recommendations *Advertisement* carousel
Another *Advertisement* carousel for recommended bestsellers!

There are plenty of other places Amazon could use without obliterating the product pages and overwhelming the customer -- though even those places are also becoming inundated with products unrelated to what you're trying to buy. Simply put the product pages (and the Amazon store in general) are cluttered and is a complete mess. Instead of overhauling the system they just keep adding crappy 90s style code to it, widgets on top of widgets, making it worse and worse. This is one of the reasons why ad prices are skyrocketing at the moment on AMS because everyone is shouting to be heard but the only person that's winning is Bezos and his stockholders.

If we could go back to the days when we only had Also Views and the Also Boughts carousel (and maybe only one more sponsored carousel) things would be a lot better for everyone, including the consumer!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think one of the biggest problems is that we were in a growing market for a long time but now we've turned to a mature market. It's not just the KU vs. wide argument (frankly that is just a reason to pull hair on the internet now). It's more than that. I see a lot of people struggling and I expect that to continue.
When this all started it was easy to get visibility because no one was playing the game and the product could be woefully bad and still sell. I made every mistake in the book when I started and I managed to survive. You can't do that any longer. You have to improve. A lot of the people I'm seeing "give up" are the ones that either can't or won't improve.
It was only a matter of time before Amazon monetized advertising. You can bet that Apple, Google, Kobo and Barnes & Noble either will do it or at least try to do it, too. Most of those entities actually ignored their bookstores for so long they almost fell completely out of the market. Hopefully they will be able to fix that, but if you think they're not going to follow the Amazon model and monetize ad placement, I think you're nuts. That's simply good business.
A lot of what happens in these arguments is wish fulfillment. You visualize the outcome you want and then base your argument around it, Those who hate KU say it will be gone, and soon. Those who like KU say it will live forever. I tend to trend more pragmatic. I don't think KU, especially how it is now, will last forever. I think it's our reality for the foreseeable future, though. People assume I will be sad when KU goes but that's not true. KU has allowed me to go debt free and stockpile money for my retirement but I'm not afraid of KU going away. Even if my income was cut in half, I won't suffer. Seventy-five percent? That's still more than I was making at my day job ... by a long shot. I'm not worried about my books selling on other vendors. I am dreading the process of uploading that many books on other vendors but it is what it is. I'm not terrified of the day KU changes to something that doesn't work for me. I'm prepared for when that happens and know it will take work to get everything on the other vendors. Fear isn't part of the game, though.
As for KU itself, I think people want to see what they want to see. Just like any other marketplace, you have to fight for visibility in KU. Just sticking your books in KU without finding a way to advertise and get eyes on them isn't going to work because people need to see it to read it. KU is great for allowing readers to take a chance on a new-to-them author without risking money. You still have to be discovered for that to happen. I think from here on out, the true problem people are going to have is with visibility and that's not going away. It's only going to get worse. At a certain point, though, some of the content mills will actually go away because the money they're spending on visibility won't translate to profits at the end of the month. I think the time when a few of them crumble is soon if any of the whispers are true. That's not all content mills, of course. This market is still settling, though, and there are still a few things that need to shake out.
Will it be harder for people who can't write fast? Absolutely. There will still be breakout single books, though. That happens every year. Most people who manage to stay in the game will be hobbyists and those who can produce quickly. That won't be everyone, though. There will always be outliers. Also, there will be new stars every year and others quietly fading into the background. Not all those fading will be doing it because they can't keep up as much as they've achieved what they want to achieve and simply want to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Nothing is set in stone here but the reality is still something we all have to work around. It's a brave new world for us, a different world, but it's still worth navigating in my book.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Astute post, TT.

I may not agree with every detail, but I read your posts because they possess this level of acumen.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> Why do Amazon make a borrow equal a sale?
> They could easily set up a separate KU rank the same as they have done for free books. There is no technical limitation so it is deliberate. My theory is if they didn't skew the list then they would be dominated by the trads. The animosity between Amazon and the trads is real, so much so they'll take any fight to court. I don't think Jeff wants to see his shop dominated by the trads - it's an ego thing. Unfortunately, it's making the site impossible to use.
> 
> What did exclusivity do?
> I believe originally it was to starve the other platforms of content, but it hasn't worked out the way they expected.


I could agree with many of the things you said, but I might take issue with these two.

Why does Amazon make a borrow equal a sale? Because if it didn't, KU would be a much less tempting option for authors. Think about it. If borrows didn't contribute to visibility, it would be a lot harder to sell the lower price/higher volume argument. (It's getting harder, anyway, but it wasn't in the beginning.) Yes, Amazon and the trads have had their conflicts, but it's a lot less than total war. Take a look at Amazon Charts some time. It does give some boost to Amazon imprint books (which will never appear on traditional bestseller lists), but it's generally still trad-dominated. The last one has one imprint book (the same one) on both the most sold and most read lists for fiction. The most sold one also has two self-pubbed titles. That's it. The other nineteen most read and seventeen most sold are from trad publishers. That's pretty typical, though in some weeks, the imprints have been better represented. The lowest I've seen the trads go on either list is fifteen out of twenty. If Bezos were as anti-trad as you suspect, I doubt Amazon Charts would ever have seen the light of day.

I would agree that Amazon may have been trying to starve the other platforms of content, but I'm not sure that's been the real effect. Is Barnes and Noble in trouble because it's running out of books to sell? No. It's in trouble because it spent too long living in the past. The trads produce more than enough books to keep most readers happy. The only way to make a book-a-day reader on a tight budget happy is the give that person a subscription service like KU--the very approach that, as you suggest, may be harming Amazon. So is Amazon really gaining anything by trying to hold onto indie authors? Its major competitors have ample books to sell and could keep any but the most voracious readers happy even if they never distributed a single indie book. A few indie authors have enough of a following to make a difference in the struggle for market share--and they aren't all in KU by any means.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

TwistedTales said:


> I'll add that I don't think content mills will go away because I think they've been around in one form or another for a while. There will be a profit tipping point and the ones best at building/maintaining KU mail lists, getting cheap or free or earning content, hitting the right niche/trope points, spending the least amount advertizing, etc will win the toss, until they slip up or someone gets even better at it. You might not be fighting for visibility against the same content mill every week, but there will be another one. Now they've spawned there will be no getting rid of them unless the KU model is drastically changed in some way.


I think we probably all agree that it would be great if the KU model were changed drastically. I'm not sure I know what that would even look like anymore.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> I think we probably all agree that it would be great if the KU model were changed drastically. I'm not sure I know what that would even look like anymore.


That's the problem, I don't think Amazon has a clue what to do with KU either. I doubt they wanted the scammers, botters, stuffers, and content bad boy mills eating up the charts, or the revenue, and having to deal with that when they just wanted to quietly get on with lowering ppp and introducing AMS revenue to the model and slimmed a percentage back every few months.

Let's be honest, when AMS started and it was 0.02 per click that was great. Recently to get on the first page of a decent selling author you have to bid a minimum of 0.50 or more and cross your fingers that it comes in a lot lower. Now that is the fault of those bad boy content mills because I was doing some testing last month to see what it took to beat them out and it was a minimum bid of 1.00 and the click rate was 0.75. Perhaps that's why they've stopped showing up on all of the PNR books on the front page, they might have just priced themselves out of the market.


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## &quot;Serious&quot; ... but not really (Aug 14, 2017)

kw3000 said:


> Yeah, I don't think KU is the key driver for Amazon, I think it's just another entry point into their system. I agree with Amanda when she'd mentioned earlier in the thread that KU is one method by which Amazon gets people into Prime.


If Prime would let you get K-Select books too ...

... and drop the price of going just KU, if a person wants just that ....

... people can choose and get a good deal either way.

So if Prime monthly fee went up and they are offering 3 months KU cheap ... maybe Amazon is experimenting and we might see a small "Sea Change" soon.

Don't know. But I hope so. That would be a plus for everyone just about as a reader.


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## Mylius Fox (Jun 2, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I think one of the biggest problems is that we were in a growing market for a long time but now we've turned to a mature market. It's not just the KU vs. wide argument (frankly that is just a reason to pull hair on the internet now). It's more than that. I see a lot of people struggling and I expect that to continue.
> When this all started it was easy to get visibility because no one was playing the game and the product could be woefully bad and still sell. I made every mistake in the book when I started and I managed to survive. You can't do that any longer. You have to improve. A lot of the people I'm seeing "give up" are the ones that either can't or won't improve.
> It was only a matter of time before Amazon monetized advertising. You can bet that Apple, Google, Kobo and Barnes & Noble either will do it or at least try to do it, too. Most of those entities actually ignored their bookstores for so long they almost fell completely out of the market. Hopefully they will be able to fix that, but if you think they're not going to follow the Amazon model and monetize ad placement, I think you're nuts. That's simply good business.
> A lot of what happens in these arguments is wish fulfillment. You visualize the outcome you want and then base your argument around it, Those who hate KU say it will be gone, and soon. Those who like KU say it will live forever. I tend to trend more pragmatic. I don't think KU, especially how it is now, will last forever. I think it's our reality for the foreseeable future, though. People assume I will be sad when KU goes but that's not true. KU has allowed me to go debt free and stockpile money for my retirement but I'm not afraid of KU going away. Even if my income was cut in half, I won't suffer. Seventy-five percent? That's still more than I was making at my day job ... by a long shot. I'm not worried about my books selling on other vendors. I am dreading the process of uploading that many books on other vendors but it is what it is. I'm not terrified of the day KU changes to something that doesn't work for me. I'm prepared for when that happens and know it will take work to get everything on the other vendors. Fear isn't part of the game, though.
> ...


Beautifully rational post, made me feel much more encouraged than discouraged.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Sati_LRR said:


> I think the point they were making is that the product pages are no longer product pages. They are instead an "everything-page", trying to shoe-horn a large section of the store into each one, which only makes things worse and devalues any advertisement that people pay for. What's the point if you're competing against _hundreds_ of other products on that same page?
> 
> And it's a lot worse than 40% too. There is only ONE main place (three if you count a KU button and the gifting button) where you can buy my book. Yet literally hundreds of other links/covers that entice the consumer away from that product.
> 
> ...


It's going to be interesting to see what Apple and Google Play will be doing with their product pages, if anything, now that they're upping their game.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

JRTomlin said:


> And I have to say that although my sales on Kobo so far have been modest, I am somewhat impressed by them.


Me too. Kobo is less than Apple for me, but still a number.

The thing is, Kobo has very little reach into the US market, which is where my primary reader base is. So Walmart selling Kobo has to be a big increase for Kobo sales for those like me, where the rest of the world is secondary.

It should be interesting.


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## &quot;Serious&quot; ... but not really (Aug 14, 2017)

Mylius Fox said:


> Beautifully rational post, made me feel much more encouraged than discouraged.


Yeah. Read it too. Things are tougher for Indies now - there are a lot of us. Mature market - maybe. Could be. But at least you can be an Indie at zero cost sans trying to promote your books.

Now promoting your books ... there aren't a lot of real successful angles. Some methods work well for some people - some don't ... but it depends a lot on the book too - bad better or good - and the cost you put into it.

Amazon has this KU angle, and Indies are part of that ATM. A platform that works for us that is free to just throw it out there.

Anyway, best of luck.


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