# No such thing as Perma Free



## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

FYI Per KDP Support there is no such thing as Perma-Free or any other kind of free besides KDP Select. 
A couple weeks ago I noticed that one of the four permafree books I have was no longer free. It was 99 cents, so I inquired why it was changed. Here is the first two sentences of Support's response:

[size=12pt]Due to operational costs, it isn't possible to set the price as $0.00 through KDP, hence perma free isn't an option. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

It's possible to sell your book for free for up to 5 days every 90 days if your title is enrolled in KDP Select. You can pick the days when you want to run your free promotions, choosing to go one day at a time or offering your book free for multiple days in a row.[/size]

So I guess that means the three other perma-frees I have along with the score of price match frees I have are my imagination. And I didn't really give away some five thousand price match books in the last 30 days because if I did it would've cost Amazon money. (I hope Amazon doesn't want a refund for those non-existent Frees)


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

I wouldn't inquire about why it was changed, but just send them an email pointing out a link/s to where it can be gotten for free.

If they ignore / fail to comply with your email, just keep sending them. It's not all the same person reading it.


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## Christine Tate (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for passing along the info.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I just double-checked and my permafree book is now at the list price as well. Amazon must be cracking down on permafree. I wonder if they're going to start sending out emails if people have books for free on other sites.


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## timstevens (Jul 4, 2012)

This is always the risk with permafree, I've found. A few days before I had a whole bunch of ads scheduled for one of my books (though not, thankfully, BookBub on that occasion), Amazon put the book back to paid. I got it free again eventually, but too late for the promo.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

I wonder what this means for their price matching now?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mine are still price matched, but they do sometimes drop to free when the  stores glitch. If Amazon ever DOES stop price matching, I'll still run promos but send people to Barnes or something. Nook is my second store after Amazon.


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

Mine are still price-matched, but it'd be interesting (and terrifying) to see what would happen if Amazon did revoke all the free ebooks.  I'm not sure if I would change my prices anywhere else just to appease Amazon's attempts at strong-arming me into their programs just to get free for a few measly days.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

The purge started in november, my genre free bestseller list went from 100 to 17 books that month on books from authors i know run them constantly on permafree, about the same time my permafree downloads tripled (due to the sudden shortage in choice)

I've been monitoring it across 5 lists and each of them is being emptied if the permafrees with only select books coming and going.

This seems to have been timed with the backlash against the KU so i suspect they are tightening the screws on us wide authors to reduce the free list in order to push budget readers using the free lists into KU.

I think amazon is slowly killing free books now they have KU since they have the numbers that tells them how many readers are just downloading free books and they are a group they probably most want on the KU deal.

Pure speculation on my part but several of my genre stable mates have said they have made it increasingly harder to get back on permafree when it drops, but the november purge was the biggest i've seen in my genre.

All i can say is that it might be a blessing in disguise, but if they are killing it i'm glad i managed to get in and get 20,000 copies out and build my readership before it ends.

Certainly thats a change in tone that may signal new post-ku policy. 

We will see what happens next.


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

Jane_Dough said:


> Error 404, I was just thinking the same thing. What could happen if you keep the other sites permafree and not worry about Amz?


If Amazon noticed the discrepancies and sent me a cease-and-obey order to change the prices at all other vendors, and I didn't obey, they'd pull the book. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about books so long as their free status didn't change.

Not sure what would happen to me if they pulled my first books, but hopefully they'd be foolish enough to do it to enough people to get customers to notice. Since Amazon is the Walmart of the online world, the cheap customers wouldn't be too pleased (at least, that's what I hope).


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

If Amazon does try strong-arming, I wonder what those authors would do. Would you say "okay fine, I'll leave books two and above on Amazon and then drive people to Kobo, iTunes, B&N, and other sites where free is allowed" or would you appease Amazon? If enough authors did the former--including some big name indies--I wonder if Amazon would go back to their old policy of looking the other way? Or maybe make permafree an actual option? 

The latter is probably wishful thinking on my part, because it means Amazon would have to find some other benefit to give to entice authors into Select.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Of course I'm just a reader/Amazon customer, but, as I always understood it, the Zon policy was for purposes of not selling something at a price significantly higher than another site, if possible. It's true for all their products, not just books -- the have the 'report a lower price' button on all their stuff.

So, really, it doesn't surprise me at all that they're simply applying the policy selectively. I have, in fact, found products (that are not books) higher sometimes on Amazon. I report them, and sometimes the price drops and sometimes it doesn't.  So it's an internal policy, applied according to their pricing strategies, not a promise. And they may be no longer applying it to ebooks.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

I posted this on another forum last month and got slammed.....  

Amazon apparently is going to stop the free books outside of Select.  They will either raise the price or drop the title, but I don't know what their criteria is for making that decision one way or another.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

thewitt said:


> I posted this on another forum last month and got slammed.....
> 
> Amazon apparently is going to stop the free books outside of Select. They will either raise the price or drop the title, but I don't know what their criteria is for making that decision one way or another.


Doubt that will happen. Amazon makes money off perma-free. What they make in sales of books 2 and 3 and onwards more than makes up for the book one loss. They know it too, and they allow it for that reason. A loss leader works well for the author, the publisher, the retailer and the reader.

Bad business decision if they suddenly kill permafree books. And thus, I don't believe it's going to happen.

But hell, it's not the end of the world if it does go away. Just price book one at 99c and run monthly promos on it or something. It won't be as much as a banker, but it'll be a more even playing field with all other books being un-permafreed too.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Jane_Dough said:


> They could pull the book? That's effed up. If they don't want to price match, fine, but that seems harsh.


Amazon is effed up. They pulled all twenty-nine of my select books many of which were in free promotion, because the found one of those books in Flipcart, A vendor at which I've never sold a book and had never heard of. Then they pulled a book of mine that was priced matched with Google @ 2.51, because I had the regular (not the sale price) at $4.99 not the $2.99 that was the regular price at Google. A kept that book off Amazon for ninety days after that.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

thewitt said:


> I posted this on another forum last month and got slammed.....
> 
> Amazon apparently is going to stop the free books outside of Select. They will either raise the price or drop the title, but I don't know what their criteria is for making that decision one way or another.


I think select is on the clock too. I don't think they like the mess they created with free books. None of the venders do. Books I used to sell at 4.99 before free, no longer sell well at 2.99 and that's after giving a thousand away. Countdown is their current replacement for the free select books. They just haven't acted on it yet. They might be looking for a second option.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> Due to operational costs, it isn't possible to set the price as $0.00 through KDP, hence perma free isn't an option. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
> 
> It's possible to sell your book for free for up to 5 days every 90 days if your title is enrolled in KDP Select. You can pick the days when you want to run your free promotions, choosing to go one day at a time or offering your book free for multiple days in a row.


Yesterday I requested Traveling Around to be made free since I made them free a week ago on other sites.

http://www.amazon.com/Traveling-Around-Charlies-Circle-Book-ebook/dp/B00ARP1I86/ref=sr_1_76?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1421932582&sr=1-76&keywords=franklin+eddy

They made it free overnight and I have already had some downloads. So Amazon does still make it free; I have no books in Select.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Wild Rivers said:


> Yesterday I requested Traveling Around to be made free since I made them free a week ago on other sites.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Traveling-Around-Charlies-Circle-Book-ebook/dp/B00ARP1I86/ref=sr_1_76?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1421932582&sr=1-76&keywords=franklin+eddy
> 
> They made it free overnight and I have already had some downloads. So Amazon does still make it free; I have no books in Select.


It's £3.90 on Amazon UK.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Yeah I emailed them about getting a permafree done tonight. Got a reply, saying I would have to wait to be contacted in 5 days time.

Uh.. no thanks.

Just sent the email a second time. Someone else read it and now its permafree half an hour later.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Wild Rivers said:


> Yesterday I requested Traveling Around to be made free since I made them free a week ago on other sites.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Traveling-Around-Charlies-Circle-Book-ebook/dp/B00ARP1I86/ref=sr_1_76?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1421932582&sr=1-76&keywords=franklin+eddy
> 
> They made it free overnight and I have already had some downloads. So Amazon does still make it free; I have no books in Select.


I checked the link and it shows up as $4.18 for me.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Amazon is having to spend millions goosing the KU pot every month to cover all the free trial borrows. As with any company their cross-subsidies will only go so far, if KU is draining cash out of the Kindle business unit they'll be calculating the actual cost of those downloads plus the lost opportunity cost of selling products that are given away free. Amazon probably sees KU as the new bargain hunters bin so no longer feels the need to garnish kindle growth with free books. We saw them turn the screws on affilliates income, with people like bookbub generating 50k downloads that only see maybe 5 to 10 percent sell through, then authors boosting with 99c sales on top, that z65c follow on sale has to cover the cost of the other 9 downloads that earned nothing. While readers have a plentiful supply of free books there is little incentive for them to pony up for KU.

Bottom line, amazon may decide the 200k (wild guess) free downloads bookbubs generates would be a lot better for them locked into KU - the net effect of removing permafree is forcing authors on the fence unto KU by pulling the rug from under their sales catalyst.

Yes, we know that our PF generate follow on sales and it seems counter-productive to us for amazon to remove that business opportunity, but ftom their perspective they are prepared to push their hand to move those readers (and authors) into KU.

I think we'll see a gradual drawdown of free titles, they already buried the free list and free also-boughts, purging the permafrees down to only the biggest earners would be the logical step to wean freeloaders off their supply and onto the KU binge program. 

I'm not speculating as a harbinger if doom, i benefit greatly from the current set up, but i think Amazon sees their kindle future as KU for bargain readers and higher prices and more margin on non select titles as the sweet spot to balance their books and satisfying readers of different spending brackets.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

Perry Constantine said:


> I checked the link and it shows up as $4.18 for me.


It's free for me.

As for permafree not existing... Strictly speaking, that's true, in Amazon's terms. Price-matching has always been at their discretion. I've had no problem getting stuff price-matched, but I'm well aware that they can change my prices at any time.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jane_Dough said:


> They could pull the book? That's effed up. If they don't want to price match, fine, but that seems harsh.


If they went THAT far, I would have no choice but to price all permafrees at the lower possible price, and hope. The royalty is immaterial. It's the loss of visibility that would kill me (and is why KU hurt my audible sales so badly)


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Maybe only the ones they're actually losing money on (downloads that don't generate enough follow up sales) will be taken out?  Interesting to see where this goes.


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

How would they have any say on permafree, if the book in question doesn't go through Amazon to begin with? That's like Walmart trying to strong arm Starbucks into not giving away free coffee samples.

I'm certainly not caving in here, if my work (other than one) doesn't go through Amazon to begin with.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

LWFlouisa said:


> How would they have any say on permafree, if the book in question doesn't go through Amazon to begin with? That's like Walmart trying to strong arm Starbucks into not giving away free coffee samples.
> 
> Unless of course what's being referred to are books posted on Smashwords, that then go through Amazon.
> 
> Otherwise Amazon has no say in how I handle my money at other sites.


If you put your book on Amazon, the terms specifically state you cannot have a lower price anywhere else.
They don't price match to Smashwords but to B&N, Apple and Google Play.


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm sure glad I know that now before putting anything out. I was already considering Barnes And Noble due to the whole Amazon vs. Hatchet thing a year back or so. Oh I'm specifically against not allowing free books. Yea I can see not pricing your book 1.99 one place, then setting it as 2.99 elsewhere.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

What a revolting development this is. So far, my books are ok, but Amazon's rules say (I think) that you can't have a lower price anywhere else, I wouldn't take them off the other sites, but Amazon could force me to take my two first in a series books off of Amazon. I have so many promotions out there saying it's free, I wouldn't know where to begin to retract it all.

The alternative would be to of course send readers to the other booksellers, or post them free on my website, either to read online or to download. Not sure how to do that, but I would figure it out somehow. It would mean having to drive more readers to my website, which is never easy.

Can you imagine what this will do to BookBub and all the other promotion sites that list free books? I can feel the entire internet quaking already. The damage possibilities are staggering.

I assume we would lose our rankings as well?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Martitalbott said:


> What a revolting development this is. So far, my books are ok, but Amazon's rules say (I think) that you can't have a lower price anywhere else, I wouldn't take them off the other sites, but Amazon could force me to take my two first in a series books off of Amazon. I have so many promotions out there saying it's free, I wouldn't know where to begin to retract it all.
> 
> The alternative would be to of course send readers to the other booksellers, or post them free on my website, either to read online or to download. Not sure how to do that, but I would figure it out somehow. It would mean having to drive more readers to my website, which is never easy.
> 
> ...


Everyone take a breath... breathe 2...3... this isn't happening as far as we know. It COULD, but it hasn't yet. I've had books randomly drop back to paid and then go free again. It usually happens around the 1st of the month, but it can happen any time. I email kdp yesterday about getting a book permafree, they took an hour or so to do it, after I asked on our make it free post to report it too  So as of yesterday, they were still making books free, and all my book 1s are STILL free.

If they DID stop it altogether, all it would do is clutter up the paid list with more $0.99 books, as all of us aren't going to suddenly pull them out of Amazon.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I hope you're right, Mark. Maybe it's just some confusion between customer service reps. The last time I sent a question, I got two different responses from two different people. I'm still trying to figure out which is the best way to go.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

[urlIt's £3.90 on Amazon UK.][/url]

I guess free is only for the U.S.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Wild Rivers said:


> [urlIt's £3.90 on Amazon UK.][/url]
> 
> I guess free is only for the U.S.


You have to report it seperately for the uk and other stores using the relevent country links, eg apple uk for uk.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Amazon has always sometimes made a perma-free no longer free for a short spell. It happened a few years ago and still happens now. That's nothing new. Then they make it free again because it stays free other places.

Why the panic? Even if they no longer allow free in the future, don't you think people who don't want books in KU will just make the first book .99 or else keep it free other places and drive people to those places? Why waste energy worrying about something that will have simple solutions other than KU?

Take a deep breath.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Carradee said:


> It's free for me.
> 
> As for permafree not existing... Strictly speaking, that's true, in Amazon's terms. Price-matching has always been at their discretion. I've had no problem getting stuff price-matched, but I'm well aware that they can change my prices at any time.


Agree. I'm not seeing any kind of shift happening. It has always been this way. The email in the OP said there is no way to _set_ the price to free, and that's the way it's always been, or at least for as long as I've been involved. The only option has been price matching, and that has also been hit and miss. Sometimes they match automatically, sometimes you have to request it, sometimes it's free for a while, then reverts back to paid, then back to free again.

This just seems like more business as usual.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Perry Constantine said:


> If Amazon does try strong-arming, I wonder what those authors would do. Would you say "okay fine, I'll leave books two and above on Amazon and then drive people to Kobo, iTunes, B&N, and other sites where free is allowed" or would you appease Amazon? If enough authors did the former--including some big name indies--I wonder if Amazon would go back to their old policy of looking the other way? Or maybe make permafree an actual option?
> 
> The latter is probably wishful thinking on my part, because it means Amazon would have to find some other benefit to give to entice authors into Select.


I would pull all book ones from Amazon. Amazon just isn't able to push enough sales anymore to lose permafree at other vendors.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Caddy said:


> Amazon has always sometimes made a perma-free no longer free for a short spell. It happened a few years ago and still happens now. That's nothing new. Then they make it free again because it stays free other places.
> 
> Why the panic? Even if they no longer allow free in the future, don't you think people who don't want books in KU will just make the first book .99 or else keep it free other places and drive people to those places? Why waste energy worrying about something that will have simple solutions other than KU?
> 
> Take a deep breath.


I agree. I don't think they're actually getting rid of permafree. Two years ago, they had the market share to do this, and it would have made sense for them to do it then if they saw it as a problem. Now? They're in a dogfight with a much bigger company that is willing to use the same exact tactics against Amazon that Amazon used to kill other retailers. Removing permafree now would hurt them in that fight and makes no business sense.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

I doubt that Amazon would get rid of perma-free. They know how much money it brings.

That said, if they _did_ get rid of perma-free, one thing we could do is to create a different series prequel for Amazon and the other vendors. Set the non-Amazon one perma-free and then put the Amazon one in Select. It would be a pain, but it would be a solution.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

vlmain said:


> Agree. I'm not seeing any kind of shift happening. It has always been this way. The email in the OP said there is no way to _set_ the price to free, and that's the way it's always been, or at least for as long as I've been involved. The only option has been price matching, and that has also been hit and miss. Sometimes they match automatically, sometimes you have to request it, sometimes it's free for a while, then reverts back to paid, then back to free again.
> 
> This just seems like more business as usual.


True.

I think the disconnect is that the OP emailed to request price matching, but worded it in such a way that the Amazon rep refused to comply. Instead, the rep sent this note explaining...

But as others have said, whenever you get a rep who won't help you, just keep emailing until you get one who will.


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## jhanel (Dec 22, 2010)

deedawning said:


> Due to operational costs, it isn't possible to set the price as $0.00 through KDP, hence perma free isn't an option. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
> 
> It's possible to sell your book for free for up to 5 days every 90 days if your title is enrolled in KDP Select. You can pick the days when you want to run your free promotions, choosing to go one day at a time or offering your book free for multiple days in a row.


This is why I am pulling away from KDP Select, slowly. If Amazon (processing BILLIONS of transactions per day) isn't seeing a ROI for it, then how can we meager authors expect to get a better ROI for the LONG term. (not an immediate or short-term bump in sales). This has become another leveraging point with Amazon to entice Authors to bring all of their works here. And if they had left the system alone, I would have.

However, starting in March, I will run promotions across the gambit with price changes all over the place, not just Amazon. I want to see how well things do without grand-pappy-Amazon watching. Please note; I'm not an Amazon Hater. In fact, I owe a lot to Amazon!! But if they are changing their structure, I have to change my tactics to match.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

The people reporting the paid listings seem to not be in the US. Permafree (and Amazon doesn't like calling it that, they prefer 'price-matched free') has always been a per-store thing and it's hard as anything to get free in non-US stores. Books in the non-US stores also fall in and out of free constantly.

None of this is new.

Also, the 'operational costs' line is a complete lie. As I've proven many times with the magic of math, the 'delivery costs' your paid books incur from them is on the order of 1000% mark-up and easily pay for all the free books.

Plus, Amazon wastes money/throws money away like no responsible company would ever be allowed to. KU alone is a black hole from which the light from money shall never escape. So if a rep tells you they're worried about the cost of a proven money-maker like permafree is 'too expensive', you have my permission to feed them their teeth.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

jhanel said:


> In fact, I owe a lot to Amazon!


No, you really don't. Does Peperidge Farms owe a lot to Walmart purely for being the biggest retailer carrying them? No, because Walmart is making money from the relationship, not running a charity.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Considering how well I'm selling with perma-frees, I'd rather they not touch it, but if they do, I guess then I'll have to bundle book 1 and 2 for regular price of book 2 and leave book 1 free everywhere else. That would probably kill my sales on Amazon, which would be annoying because I just started doing better there, but whatever. I'd find a way to make up for it on other vendors.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Jane_Dough said:


> They could pull the book? That's effed up. If they don't want to price match, fine, but that seems harsh.


Per the TOS you agree to, you agree to not offer for sale the book at a lower price elsewhere. The fact that Amazon does not allow us to set prices at free is not, in their mind, their problem. They have to date simply matched to free and not been too weird about it. But technically, yes, they can pull the book because you are violating the TOS by offering the book at a lower retail price elsewhere than on Amazon.


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## Jill Nojack (Mar 7, 2014)

Stacy Claflin said:


> I doubt that Amazon would get rid of perma-free. They know how much money it brings.
> 
> That said, if they _did_ get rid of perma-free, one thing we could do is to create a different series prequel for Amazon and the other vendors. Set the non-Amazon one perma-free and then put the Amazon one in Select. It would be a pain, but it would be a solution.


Stacy, that's brilliant - two seperate prequels, one for each venue's capabilities. Nice.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't know why no one sees this as more of the usual: a cookie-cutter response from KDP staff without a clue copy & pasted out of the TOS. Nothing about this is new. Those people in KDP support are getting more clueless all the time.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

A new tactic to FORCE people into KDP as the only means of running a free deal lol. They are sneaky!!!!


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I don't know why no one sees this as more of the usual: a cookie-cutter response from KDP staff without a clue copy & pasted out of the TOS. Nothing about this is new. Those people in KDP support are getting more clueless all the time.


Correct. Plus, the books dropping out of free also happens all the time.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> ...If Amazon ever DOES stop price matching, I'll still run promos but send people to Barnes or something. Nook is my second store after Amazon.


I think that if Amazon ever does stop price-matching below 99 cents, the other resellers would probably stop as well. I'm confident the others only started the practice in response to Amazon doing it. Now that Amazon no longer has the 'free' edge they had with permafree, it isn't so important to them. They are resellers after all, and need to make a profit to help keep the doors open. Profits have eluded Amazon for a long time as they tried to grow the company. The stockholders seem to be getting tired of hearing that Amazon will lose money AGAIN this year. Presently, for me, Kobo has a slight edge over NookPress, while Amazon is fading fast into the sunset.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I think the disconnect is that the OP emailed to request price matching, but worded it in such a way that the Amazon rep refused to comply. Instead, the rep sent this note explaining...


99 % certain this is the case. We frequently have these threads speculating that Amazon has changed their price-matching policy. It inevitably turns out to be a rep giving a from-the-manual response that (understandably) confuses the author. If you keep resubmitting your request you'll eventually get to a rep who responds differently. It'll help if you ask to "price-match to free" and include links to other stores where the book is currently free. Instead of using our terms, like "permafree," it's preferable to use the retailers' terms when dealing with them. Keeps everything clearer.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Per the TOS you agree to, you agree to not offer for sale the book at a lower price elsewhere. The fact that Amazon does not allow us to set prices at free is not, in their mind, their problem. They have to date simply matched to free and not been too weird about it. But technically, yes, they can pull the book because you are violating the TOS by offering the book at a lower retail price elsewhere than on Amazon.


And why is that a threat to them? Their readers use mobi. Everyone else's readers use ePub. Amazon has no direct competition for the sale of digital books--period!


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

deedawning said:


> And why is that a threat to them? Their readers use mobi. Everyone else's readers use ePub. Amazon has no direct competition for the sale of digital books--period!


The point is Amazon wants to be able to KEEP people in their private ecosystem. If other retailers start having lower prices across the board, people will migrate to other retailers (and then realize...OMG! Everyone on the planet except Amazon uses ePub? Why have I been restricting myself to just Amazon all this time.) If other retailers are routinely selling at lower prices, Amazon loses its leverage regarding price.


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

> Quote from: Bards and Sages (Julie) on Today at 10:50:40 AM
> Per the TOS you agree to, you agree to not offer for sale the book at a lower price elsewhere. The fact that Amazon does not allow us to set prices at free is not, in their mind, their problem. They have to date simply matched to free and not been too weird about it. But technically, yes, they can pull the book because you are violating the TOS by offering the book at a lower retail price elsewhere than on Amazon.





deedawning said:


> And why is that a threat to them? Their readers use mobi. Everyone else's readers use ePub. Amazon has no direct competition for the sale of digital books--period!


Since the Amazon Bookshelf has a column for Free Units Price Match, they don't view free as a violation of the TOS.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Also, the ebook format doesn't mean anything when it comes to competition. EPUB/MOBI is simply the wrapper around which the protable webpage that is your book resides in. converting them is fun and easy.


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## rosclarke (Jul 12, 2013)

deedawning said:


> And why is that a threat to them? Their readers use mobi. Everyone else's readers use ePub. Amazon has no direct competition for the sale of digital books--period!


Plenty of other retailers sell mobi files, actually. And for those that don't it is easy to convert the files, even if you have to strip DRM to do so. It's not as convenient as one-click buy, obviously, but for a free book it's certainly worth the extra steps for me.


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## rosclarke (Jul 12, 2013)

thewitt said:


> I posted this on another forum last month and got slammed.....


In point of fact, one author said she hadn't heard this, and I said that I wouldn't press Amazon too hard to give confirmation that they have a policy of perma-free since technically it is against their TOS. As other people in this thread have also pointed out. That's not exactly 'slammed'.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I don't know why no one sees this as more of the usual: a cookie-cutter response from KDP staff without a clue copy & pasted out of the TOS. Nothing about this is new. Those people in KDP support are getting more clueless all the time.


Yes, which is what I also implied. I don't know what the fuss is about.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

deedawning said:


> FYI Per KDP Support there is no such thing as Perma-Free or any other kind of free besides KDP Select.
> A couple weeks ago I noticed that one of the four permafree books I have was no longer free. It was 99 cents, so I inquired why it was changed. Here is the first two sentences of Support's response:
> 
> Due to operational costs, it isn't possible to set the price as $0.00 through KDP, hence perma free isn't an option. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
> ...


I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems worth pointing out that the above is standard KDP boilerplate. They're pointing out that there's no such thing as "permafree" in that authors cannot choose to make a book permanently free on Amazon. Books are free only at Amazon's discretion. Cf this message from KDP in response to my requesting they set a book free:



> Hello,
> 
> Thanks for writing to us with your concern and I'll be glad to assist you.
> 
> ...


The material I've made blue is just a different KDP rep's way of saying what was said to the OP. They said this to me while simultaneously _agreeing_ to make one of my books free, so I think it's pretty clearly a standard, canned response any question that pairs the idea of permanence with the idea of freeness.

Books have always fallen out of permafree. Free has always been at Amazon's discretion. I see no change, here.

That said, I doubt permafree will be around forever.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I personally don't think it is wise to make you book free forever anyway.  I had two books that had been perma free for about a year and they weren't getting a lot of downloads so I put them back to paid.  Then I put the first book in my Charlie's Circle series as perma free.  I will leave it as free until the downloads slow down and then consider something different.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Amazon *does not *do perma-free. However, they* do *price match. If they price match a zero-priced book, the result is free. It's all in the semantics.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

deedawning said:


> And why is that a threat to them? Their readers use mobi. Everyone else's readers use ePub. Amazon has no direct competition for the sale of digital books--period!


The file format doesn't really mean anything. Calibre is a free program that can put epubs on Kindles with zero problem and though I haven't had cause to try it the other way, I'm sure they could do the same putting mobis on epub readers.


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

Well, I just had two titles made permafree in the US by emailing KDP support. I don't see any signs that they are changing their policy ... yet.

However, I wish permafree would go away everywhere. If the race to the bottom stopped at $0.99, instead of free, we would all be making more money, and readers would not consider free books a right. 

Then, if the non-KU source of free books vanished, there would really be value in KU, too, and other retailers would also adopt subscription models, and Amazon would have to drop the KU exclusivity requirement, and the whole market could restructure around subscription services. I think this IS the business model of the future, I just don't see how we get there from here.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Well, I just had two titles made permafree in the US by emailing KDP support. I don't see any signs that they are changing their policy ... yet.
> 
> However, I wish permafree would go away everywhere. If the race to the bottom stopped at $0.99, instead of free, we would all be making more money, and readers would not consider free books a right.
> 
> Then, if the non-KU source of free books vanished, there would really be value in KU, too, and other retailers would also adopt subscription models, and Amazon would have to drop the KU exclusivity requirement, and the whole market could restructure around subscription services. I think this IS the business model of the future, I just don't see how we get there from here.


Permafree allows me to make more money. It's as simple as that. All this "it's hurting the industry" stuff may be true, or it may not. I don't know. And to be honest, I don't really care. It provides me with money that I would never be able to get without it. It's the greatest marketing tool that exists for self-published authors.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

rosclarke said:


> In point of fact, one author said she hadn't heard this, and I said that I wouldn't press Amazon too hard to give confirmation that they have a policy of perma-free since technically it is against their TOS. As other people in this thread have also pointed out. That's not exactly 'slammed'.


Actually your response is not the one I was referring to, in point of fact...


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Well, I just had two titles made permafree in the US by emailing KDP support. I don't see any signs that they are changing their policy ... yet.
> 
> However, I wish permafree would go away everywhere. If the race to the bottom stopped at $0.99, instead of free, we would all be making more money, and readers would not consider free books a right.
> 
> Then, if the non-KU source of free books vanished, there would really be value in KU, too, and other retailers would also adopt subscription models, and Amazon would have to drop the KU exclusivity requirement, and the whole market could restructure around subscription services. I think this IS the business model of the future, I just don't see how we get there from here.


If you're arguing against a race to the bottom, then subscription models would not help that. It would encourage it.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Stacy Claflin said:


> I doubt that Amazon would get rid of perma-free. They know how much money it brings.
> 
> That said, if they _did_ get rid of perma-free, one thing we could do is to create a different series prequel for Amazon and the other vendors. Set the non-Amazon one perma-free and then put the Amazon one in Select. It would be a pain, but it would be a solution.


You know, that DOES sound do-able!
As of now, my book is price matched in the US, UK, CA, and a few other stores, but no other Eurozone stores or Japan or Mexico anyway. As I have the book free on Google Play (where now, I can finally offer my book for free to NZ and AU! And a whole lot of other places!) and Apple, who also have a much broader international reach than Amazon, my Amazon downloads of my permafree have become much more diluted than they used to be.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Felix R. Savage said:


> However, I wish permafree would go away everywhere. If the race to the bottom stopped at $0.99, instead of free, we would all be making more money, and readers would not consider free books a right.


i think the race to the bottom will play out in KU.

The permafree scheme makes sense for the first book of a series. In that case you have to take the price of the whole series into account, and then you'll see it is all but a race to the bottom.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> Amazon *does not *do perma-free. However, they* do *price match. If they price match a zero-priced book, the result is free. It's all in the semantics.


Yes, I saw that in the OP that the way the email was written, the customer service rep was trying to tell him how to use _KDP_ to make the book free.
Amazon loves to price match, especially B&N and Apple. I had a promo where I made one of my books 99 cents in all stores, and B&N didn't raise the price back up to $3.99 as quickly as everyone else, so Amazon very (un)helpfully price matched the book to 99 cents. It was a matter of a few hours. 
That being said, getting my book free in the UK was a task.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Amazon's TOS legalities about pricing remind me a lot of easements.  They say in the TOS that you will not price a book cheaper somewhere else followed by a general threat that any violation of the TOS may result in suspension/termination of the account.  However there is a whole section on Amazon's own help pages that covers sales or discounts on other sites.  If it's illegal in the TOS to discount, why is this even here?  Also there is a separate column specifically for price match free downloads.  Again, if this is so illegal, why is it there?  Next you have the documented and historical record that Amazon allows this through their inaction of enforcing their own TOS.  There is also evidence that they even support discounting on other sites so you can get a red slash through your normal price listing to help entice customers to buy.

This is why it reminds me of easements.  There becomes a point where use becomes protected against its restriction.  Now Amazon can quit price matching anytime they want, but if they start yanking books/accounts for it...  I think there is plenty of legal power on the authors side.  Of course most people wouldn't have the funds to spend arguing it and if you're making enough money on Amazon to argue it, the loss in sales while your book is unavailable would force you into compliance anyway.


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> If you're arguing against a race to the bottom, then subscription models would not help that. It would encourage it.


Hi Perry  My opinion on this isn't deeply held or even deeply thought through. I'm open to having my mind changed, but how would subscription models encourage a race to the bottom? On the condition that exclusivity went away, so my titles could be in KU, Google Lotsabooks, B&N MeTooUnlimited, Apple iSubscribe, etc., etc. all at once? I'm not grokking the logic. It seems that that would be the same as having them on sale everywhere.

Of course, we would then lose control over pricing. Still, would that automatically mean *lower* revenues overall?


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

SB James said:


> You know, that DOES sound do-able!
> As of now, my book is price matched in the US, UK, CA, and a few other stores, but no other Eurozone stores or Japan or Mexico anyway. As I have the book free on Google Play (where now, I can finally offer my book for free to NZ and AU! And a whole lot of other places!) and Apple, who also have a much broader international reach than Amazon, my Amazon downloads of my permafree have become much more diluted than they used to be.


Yeah, the sell-through on my permafree got so bad (in the past as the freeloads dwindles the sell-through went up, not down) that I just took the book down from Amazon altogether. That's what I do when I don't want any more freeloads from that site. I've noticed that people are now doing a lot more taking and a lot less buying of my titles on that site. The company's ceasing to be of use to me, quite frankly, with or without permafree.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> Yeah, the sell-through on my permafree got so bad (in the past as the freeloads dwindles the sell-through went up, not down) that I just took the book down from Amazon altogether. That's what I do when I don't want any more freeloads from that site. I've noticed that people are now doing a lot more taking and a lot less buying of my titles on that site. The company's ceasing to be of use to me, quite frankly, with or without permafree.


Agreed, the sell-though on Amazon is not that great, but I have to say, I think it is going to be better on the other channels. That's what I'm banking on, at any rate.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Kobo and BN's sell-through for me have been ~15%, which is more than triple the reported average on Amazon. Apple however... oy. Apple hit 1% and deployed drills. I'm not sure if Apple users are just not buying through, or if they're getting that never books through other means.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Hi Perry  My opinion on this isn't deeply held or even deeply thought through. I'm open to having my mind changed, but how would subscription models encourage a race to the bottom? On the condition that exclusivity went away, so my titles could be in KU, Google Lotsabooks, B&N MeTooUnlimited, Apple iSubscribe, etc., etc. all at once? I'm not grokking the logic. It seems that that would be the same as having them on sale everywhere.
> 
> Of course, we would then lose control over pricing. Still, would that automatically mean *lower* revenues overall?


Would it automatically mean lower revenues? No, not technically. But it's very likely the revenues overall would be lower. KU hasn't been "boom time for indies" as one poster is fond of saying--some have benefitted, some have stayed the same, and some have seen their incomes drastically reduced. KU is already costing Amazon money and unless your entire catalogue consists of $0.99-priced books, borrow rates aren't even that good. Look at Spotify and what it's done to the music industry, where artists are getting paid a fraction of a cent per stream. From my perspective, it doesn't seem like a model that will encourage higher payouts for us.

How would you see it as generating higher revenue?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Briteka said:


> I would pull all book ones from Amazon. Amazon just isn't able to push enough sales anymore to lose permafree at other vendors.


Understanding, of course, that the drove of Kindle owners have to jump through calibre hoops to get your nook, etc. epubs into their mobi e-readers. Most won't bother.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

You can offer mobi versions on your site or through some vendors. DriveThru Fiction allows you to offer mobi files for sale. If you count on permafree for sales on multiple platforms and Amazon punishes you for going free on other platforms, what choice do you have? The people on those other platforms won't bother with Amazon for your five free days every three months, so you have to choose for yourself which is better for you.

Of course as others have pointed out, this all seems extremely theoretical since people are still getting Amazon to put stuff free.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2015)

SBJones said:


> Amazon's TOS legalities about pricing remind me a lot of easements. They say in the TOS that you will not price a book cheaper somewhere else followed by a general threat that any violation of the TOS may result in suspension/termination of the account. However there is a whole section on Amazon's own help pages that covers sales or discounts on other sites. If it's illegal in the TOS to discount, why is this even here? Also there is a separate column specifically for price match free downloads. Again, if this is so illegal, why is it there? Next you have the documented and historical record that Amazon allows this through their inaction of enforcing their own TOS. There is also evidence that they even support discounting on other sites so you can get a red slash through your normal price listing to help entice customers to buy.
> 
> This is why it reminds me of easements. There becomes a point where use becomes protected against its restriction. Now Amazon can quit price matching anytime they want, but if they start yanking books/accounts for it... I think there is plenty of legal power on the authors side. *Of course most people wouldn't have the funds to spend arguing it and if you're making enough money on Amazon to argue it, the loss in sales while your book is unavailable would force you into compliance anyway.*


Any legal power an author has regarding Amazon is limited not by what Amazon allows, but by how deep the author's pockets are. Unfortunately, our relationship with Amazon is perilously one-sided and we have no negotiating power. Amazon can violate their own TOS as much as they want (in fact, the TOS practically says as much) and still ban you for doing the same thing, and there is nothing you can do about it without the capacity to afford a lawyer. Sadly, this is precisely where the indie movement fails: we have no unified voice to help us. Even trade authors have writer guilds and associations that can go to bat for them and offer legal support.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Perry Constantine said:


> Of course as others have pointed out, this all seems extremely theoretical since people are still getting Amazon to put stuff free.


Still, it's wise to start considering your options. As I and others have said, permafree has been losing its potency on Amazon. It's prudent to plan for a future when this, no doubt, will become even more widespread as the number of free books increases.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Al Stevens said:


> Understanding, of course, that the drove of Kindle owners have to jump through calibre hoops to get your nook, etc. epubs into their mobi e-readers. Most won't bother.


Of course.

And I'll still make more money than if I had to pull my permafrees from other vendors. Amazon isn't my top selling vendor anymore. Some months it's not even the second top selling vendor, and a huge percentage of my sales come from permafrees. Amazon just isn't in a position anymore to demand such things from me. I'm not a charity, and I'm not going to lose extra money just to make Amazon happy.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Any legal power an author has regarding Amazon is limited not by what Amazon allows, but by how deep the author's pockets are. Unfortunately, our relationship with Amazon is perilously one-sided and we have no negotiating power. Amazon can violate their own TOS as much as they want (in fact, the TOS practically says as much) and still ban you for doing the same thing, and there is nothing you can do about it without the capacity to afford a lawyer. Sadly, this is precisely where the indie movement fails: we have no unified voice to help us. Even trade authors have writer guilds and associations that can go to bat for them and offer legal support.


That's what unions are for. When the individual worker (author) is powerless. The main thing as I see it is to NOT give Zon permanent exclusivity. As long as alternatives exist authors will never be powerless.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

rosclarke said:


> Plenty of other retailers sell mobi files, actually. And for those that don't it is easy to convert the files, even if you have to strip DRM to do so. It's not as convenient as one-click buy, obviously, but for a free book it's certainly worth the extra steps for me.


I really don't think the average reader is knowledgeable or inclined to do this. Just because something is doable doesn't mean people can and will do it. Especially if it involves extra steps


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

I won't give anyone exclusivity. Things would have to change a lot. We each have our constituency, and it is aging. Amazon will afix and modify its policies to cater to the latest money-wielding demographic, which is typically the young. When what they push stops appealing to the boomers, for example, those buyers will look elsewhere, somewhere that caters to their wishes. I hope to see that coming and intend to be there when it does. Mirror, mirror, on the wall...

In the meantime, my free book 1 in the series is still free. I think we might be tilting at windmills.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

deedawning said:


> I really don't think the average reader is knowledgeable or inclined to do this. Just because something is doable doesn't mean people can and will do it. Especially if it involves extra steps


Agreed. And, even so, Kobo and Nook don't make it particularly easy for the tech-novice to download an epub to a PC. They want us to download it to their devices, where it hides in places the typical reader can't find. If you drop out of Amazon for whatever reason, you've just written off a major slice of your marketplace: Kindle owners.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> I won't give anyone exclusivity. Things would have to change a lot. We each have our constituency, and it is aging. Amazon will afix and modify its policies to cater to the latest money-wielding demographic, which is typically the young. When what they push stops appealing to the boomers, for example, those buyers will look elsewhere, somewhere that caters to their wishes. I hope to see that coming and intend to be there when it does. Mirror, mirror, on the wall...
> 
> In the meantime, my free book 1 in the series is still free. I think we might be tilting at windmills.


I think you better be checking your statistics. 
The Money wielders if I remember right are the 45-65 age group. More disposable income.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> I think you better be checking your statistics.
> The Money wielders if I remember right are the 45-65 age group. More disposable income.


But the devourers of entertainment media are in a lower age-group.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> But the devourers of entertainment media are in a lower age-group.


Where are you finding this statistic?


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

In the dark recesses of my gray matter. It's not about who has the most discretionary capital. It's about who spends the most on certain kinds of product.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> In the dark recesses of my gray matter. It's not about who has the most discretionary capital. It's about who spends the most on certain kinds of product.


Actually on entertainment stuff, I think it is called Grandma is buying it for the grandkids. Most young couples I know are spending most of their income on things like diapers. Quite a few are living back at home with their parents. (I am talking married couples, not single moms or dads.)


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> In the dark recesses of my gray matter. It's not about who has the most discretionary capital. It's about who spends the most on certain kinds of product.


Don't forget the nagging power of the young to make their parents spend their disposable income on their offspring's behalf. 

Edit:

Hm. Seems Cin beat me to it by a few seconds.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> I think you better be checking your statistics.
> The Money wielders if I remember right are the 45-65 age group. More disposable income.


Like.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Amazon has never officially supported "perma free". What they have done is price matched. Writing an Amazon rep and mentioning "perma free" has never gotten anyone anywhere. You have to explain you want the book price-matched to it's price on a competitors site. Amazon has made no indication they are going to stop price matching products. It's a good business practice that extends far beyond just e-books. 

I think sometimes we writers think e-books are the only thing Amazon is concerned with. Their long game is much bigger than that.  I still know of people who are having no trouble getting their books price matched to "free".  

But remember when talking to Amazon you want to use phrases like "price matching" and avoid saying things like "perma free". The Amazon rep has no idea what perma free is and it isn't an option for them to select for you!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I think I remember seeing that women 30-44 were the biggest book buyers and Millennials spend the most online overall.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

To me, the Millennials are the young people.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> To me, the Millennials are the young people.


Yup. They were born betwen 1980 and 2000 making them 15-35(ish).


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Maybe Amazon wouldn't have to worry so much about operational costs if they weren't paying authors a buck forty for books worth 99 cents.
Just sayin'


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