# Great novels move us forward



## Guest (Aug 22, 2012)

I remember after reading To Kill A Mockingbird, my entire class at school completely changed their view on racism and prejudice. It was a tangible attitude change that first made me realize the power of the written word.

I think modern "famous" novels that I've heard of are merely mental fluff, mindless entertainment that doesn't convey much of a message or challenge our belief systems. As cliche as it is, the last book that provided me with any sort of introspection was Fight Club. A novel that challenged the mindset of the modern male, from within his own psyche.

Indeed, books like 50 Shades of Grey and the spin-offs(Which there are many)simply serve to _reinforce_ the status quo. Beautiful young women are merely objects for rich men to play with, and they simply are possessions for the highest bidder. I bet so many of the housewives that read these type of novels are on anti-depressants, think their real husbands are boring beta slobs, and their own lives are so terrible that the fantasy of being a young girl in the possession of an all-powerful alpha male is the ultimate escape. No wonder I'm so self-absorbed and striving to get rich, I know once I have a few million dollars in the bank I can get away with treating women in the same domineering fashion, as life imitates art.


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## abbycake (Jul 22, 2012)

I attempted to make a comment on the lingering problems with racism still present in small towns in my novella. I don't know if I succeeded as well as Harper Lee, but I felt like it needed to be said.

I think there are definitely modern novels that can challenge our thinking. 
Some of my favorites: The Life of Pi, Into the Wild, The Alchemist, Fight Club (aforementioned)

Unfortunately the rest of your argument is accurate. Most literature is "more of the same" and reinforces the fluff. Yes, there is a place for mindless entertainment in the literary world, of course, -- but sometimes I _want_ to be challenged! I want my beliefs to be shaken! And I agree, there should be more of that. We as writers should strive to be world shakers to some degree or another.

My .02


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Moved to the Book Corner as a topic of general interest.

_To Kill a Mockingbird_ is my favorite novel of all time. I agree that it makes a powerful argument about racism and its effects on a community. I'm glad to hear it had such a powerful affect on your class, sicklove.

I do note that I know several women who've read _50 Shades_ and none of them meet your description. So I'd have to disagree with that one. But you are right in that rich men & young women have been a theme in literature/novels/movies forever. From the movies: My Fair Lady, Pretty Woman, Daddy Longlegs (for you Fred Astaire fans) and many more...

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> But you are right in that rich men & young women have been a theme in literature/novels/movies forever. From the movies: My Fair Lady, Pretty Woman, Daddy Longlegs (for you Fred Astaire fans) and many more...
> 
> Betsy


I'd say one could go back as far as _The Taming of the Shrew_ for something with the theme of an older (rich) man dealing with a young (inexperienced/unwilling) woman.

I'll also note that 'great novels' are admirable -- I've read many and will likely read many more -- but sometimes a person just wants to read for fun, rather than edification.  If I learn something or find something to think about along the way, hooray. If it's just a good ride, that's o.k. too.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

And I meant to include _Pygmalion_ as the basis for _My Fair Lady_. I just looked it up to see when it was written. 1912. (Not as old as _Taming of the Shrew_, of course.) What's the saying? There are only seven major plotlines? Or something like that?

Even fairy tales: Cinderella.... Beauty and the Beast...

Betsy


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

To Kill a Mockingbird is one of the books I have to read and then watch the movie of for my college English class this fall. (Literature in cinema) along with One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, and a couple others I can't think of off the top of my head atm.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

People often misunderstand people's fantasies. The clients of dominatrixes don't tend to be people who are weak and powerless, quite the opposite. They are often people with quite a lot of power, doctors, lawyers, judges, etc. People with little power, who feel small, are much more likely to have fantasied where they get to be big and powerful.

Thus we don't have any reason to conclude that people who read 50 Shaded really want to be doormats.


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## Bone Bard (Aug 1, 2012)

I like your argument. It's a generalization of course but within
those generalizations is the kernel of truth.

I think the umbrella issue is just how fucked up people are
psychologically in the larger context. I call it the a poverty of
the spirit.

Maybe it's just an indictment on the kind of societies and 
culture we've created.


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## abbycake (Jul 22, 2012)

Oh! I thought of another one. Never Let Me Go! (it's actually a good movie too)


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

sicklove said:


> I think modern "famous" novels that I've heard of are merely mental fluff, mindless entertainment that doesn't convey much of a message or challenge our belief systems.


Sorry - I have to jump in here.. what's wrong with entertainment? I just don't get the attitude that you always have to read the classics or "deep" novels or else you are just reading fluff. There is something worthwhile (beyond fluff) to be "taken away" from your personal issues, whatever, into another world.

This is one of my pet peeves.. sorry.. but I spent too many years in graduate school reading thick books I had to read.. and when I FINALLY got out - I promised myself that was going to enjoy reading again.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

I appreciate the thought, but I think that too many people fall into the category of thinking that they should only read if the book does something to profoundly educate them.  I have a good friend like that who thinks that taking the time to read strictly for entertainment purposes is a waste of time.  I disagree.  When I read, I want a good story first and foremost.  I have no desire to have my worldview shaken or changed.  I want to love the characters, turn the pages faster and faster as the novel moved forward and anything that happens after that is just a bonus.

I read To Kill a Mockingbird in high school.  I remember it being a great story with rich characters and loving it - but I don't recall it changing anything within me.

Instead, to give you a book that DID change me?  Jaws.  Yes, Jaws.  It was the first novel I ever read and loved and it was the one that gave me the idea that I could be a writer and tell stories like that.  So, it changed everything about me.


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## Stuart Wilson (Aug 23, 2012)

Ok, i defo agree entertainment is important - having fun and enjoying urself is the whole point of life! But if a writer holds your attention for that long and they don't pass on a message of positivity or even one that's gonna change ur viewpoint, make you think or make a significant point, then hasnt the author let themselves down when they could have done both?? I think it's the author who's failed in that instance.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

I think everyone has their own reasons for reading..  for me - its not about looking for a message..  Its about being carried away,  getting to know the characters,  trying to figure out a "whodunit",  wondering what will happen next.    I understand that others may want to be inspired by a message,  but it doesn't mean everyone else does..  And those that just want a good read aren't  reading fluff.  That is condescending.


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## Stuart Wilson (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm enjoying this concept of 'fluff'! It's the readers that choose which books are successful, so i think authors need to write fluff or whatever else that will be popular, but have the skill to include their powerful messages - messages that drive those readers forward, even if they don't realise themselves! (or is that just a creepy idea for subliminal messaging lol) ...


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Stuart Wilson said:


> Ok, i defo agree entertainment is important - having fun and enjoying urself is the whole point of life! But if a writer holds your attention for that long and they don't pass on a message of positivity or even one that's gonna change ur viewpoint, make you think or make a significant point, then hasnt the author let themselves down when they could have done both?? I think it's the author who's failed in that instance.


That sounds like the author's problem.

I don't necessarily expect anything except entertainment, as a reader. (Yes, there are some books I read for personal growth or whatever, but it's not usually fiction.) In fact, I am usually really annoyed by books where the author is trying too hard to pass on a "message of positivity" or "change ur[sic] viewpoint". Books that push the author's agenda down the reader's throat are NOT entertaining. And I don't read 'em -- if that's what I'm getting in the first few chapters, it's a DNF for me.

I will acknowledge that there have been some fiction books that helped me think about something from another point of view, but I never had the feeling that was the point of it. Just an extra plus. Mainly I want a satisfying resolution to the conflicts presented. I don't want to feel preached to. I don't want to feel lectured at. And I don't want to feel like I just wasted my time.


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## Stuart Wilson (Aug 23, 2012)

when i say message of positivity etc i kinda mean where they point things out that makes u think, oh yeh that IS a joke. Going back to the classic Gulivers Travels - half the reason ppl fight is coz of the height of their heels! its so true and makes you see how dumb things like war are. that's what i mean for positivity. racking my brains for a recent example ... by the by, Sicklove - wasnt the whole point of 50 Shades that the chick turns Grey around and sorts out his issues etc, so actually its about sorting him out i.e. woman in control??


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## rachael (Aug 25, 2012)

I think the primary aim of a writer is to engage the reader, to sweep them up into the world they have created to the point that the reader forgets they're reading. They say (whoever they are), if you have a message, use Western Union (I've just dated myself!!). I think authors who primarily have messages to deliver, write stilted, clumsy books. What the character wants should be in the forefront of the writer's mind every time they sit down to write. Themes should flow from the characters and the story, not the other way around. "I want to write a book based on the game of chess, with it's themes of life and death." Good luck. I want to write a story about a man/woman who comes home one day to find.../loses everything in.../faces a threat from... Great, you're on your way. Now, start the "what if?" game, and keep going. 

But, yes, there are books that stay with you because they are profound and moving, and those are the books you will talk about forever---even if, after years have passed, all you can recall is your emotional response to the book. Never Let Me Go is one of them. The Poisonwood Bible, The Bone People, Three Day Road, Middlesex, The Corrections, Barney's Version, The Handmaids Tale, Memoirs of a Geisha--and dozens of others I can't bring to mind at the moment. 

Sometimes all we want in a book is to be transported to another time and place, we don't want the hard work of connecting the dots ourselves, having to think. And those books have just as much validity. But if we carry a piece of a book we have read and enjoyed away with us, to be remembered and mulled over and revisited, then so much the better.


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## Audrey Finch (May 18, 2012)

I'm with you Rachael, I want an author to sweep me away from my normal life and get me totally engrossed in the plot/characters.  The best books do that.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

There's absolutely _nothing_ wrong with entertainment. But when so much out there is shallow, samey, and merely reinforces the status quo, then our culture is stuck in a rut.

But you're wrong about _50 Shades_, Sick. You're taking Freud's position that "a fantasy is a desire unfulfilled," which frequently is not the case. Many men fantasise about being James Bond, for instance ... throw a dozen real live, heavily armed henchmen at them, however, and they'd run until they dropped.


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## Marc Davies (Aug 9, 2012)

I totally agree with the original post in this thread.

A novel can be a financial success because it sells many copies.  But it is only a great novel (IMHO) if it instigates some kind of positive social change.  That is the most important purpose of art, after all.  I don't often seek out these kinds of books to read, because they can be hard work, but they are always the ones for which I hold a special kind of reverence.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Marc Davies said:


> I totally agree with the original post in this thread.
> 
> A novel can be a financial success because it sells many copies. But it is only a great novel (IMHO) if it instigates some kind of positive social change. That is the most important purpose of art, after all. I don't often seek out these kinds of books to read, because they can be hard work, but they are always the ones for which I hold a special kind of reverence.


I don't think that a novel has to create social change to be great, nor do I think that making social change makes something a great novel. A novel can say important things without being especially well-written.

But I do think that novels that do make social change aren't so hard to read, because if they aren't accessible to the public, the social change will not be made.


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## John A. A. Logan (Jan 25, 2012)

Well, Dickens has the power to effect social change attributed to his work...he had the ear of the middle and upper class who wielded the political power, so he fed them stories about the plight of the poor which Dickens had known and suffered first-hand of course...but he had to create stories of searing power and emotional depth that could bypass the defence mechanisms of the rich and get right to the depths of their subconscious. 
Touch their hearts, so to speak. 
In contrast, there are writers like Knut Hamsun or Dostoyevsky, who seemed to seek the liberation of the individual spirit, giving birth to what was called in retrospect the beginning of the psychological novel. 
But is it really a contrast when, to change the individual, one by one, has to also begin at some point to cumulatively change the society?
Then again, some of the greatest authors, like George Orwell, were the most pessimistic about human nature and what ultimate track it was on..."the future being an eternal jackboot stamping on a human face" etc...
It does seem though, as in comedy, the entertainment and the message must go hand in hand...the message hidden deep in the entertainment, not vice versa...those are the stories that seem to have lasting power and may have effected more power for good over time than is yet realised.


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## BenjaminBurrell (Mar 29, 2012)

I think a great novel does one thing well. And that is to put you, the reader in the head of someone who is not you. I think stories are such a prominent part of our culture because they share understanding of what this life experience has been like for people who are not us. That's both entertaining and enlightening.

I think the power of each novel depends, in part, on the needs of the reader, their experiences or lack of, their prejudices and preconceptions.  If one reader who has a hard time understanding and empathizing with people of another racial group, reads their stories they have an opportunity to gain new perspective. 

I think the point is to expand the scope of our understanding so that when we step out into the world and interact with the millions of varieties of people out there, we treat them a little more like someone we know rather than - the foreign, the other, that which is not like us and therefore we do not care for or must consider hostile. 

I think this 'expanding scope' happens naturally in sharing stories and I think its part of the enjoyment.


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## vikiana (Oct 5, 2012)

I think great noves moves us forward. Reading a book is like any other source of comunication. And every source of comunication reflect on us more or less. The book is very intimate link between you and the author inner life. And his vision can deeply go inside you as well and change your vision for the world. This is happen very often with youth people and growing up children. They are still inflect their character and books can play a basic role there. )


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## vikiana (Oct 5, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Moved to the Book Corner as a topic of general interest.
> 
> _To Kill a Mockingbird_ is my favorite novel of all time. I agree that it makes a powerful argument about racism and its effects on a community. I'm glad to hear it had such a powerful affect on your class, sicklove.
> 
> ...


As I saw that you like Paolo Coelho and his books I coudn't miss the chance to make a post to you. His books are full with great philosophy and mistery. The most interesting part here is that these books can not be read separate. They are like a cyrcle and people should read and perceive them together. His thoughts can moves us forward. They are such a great source of lifetime knowledge we should take for free. )


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