# Our forum policy regarding DRM discussions



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Many types of content - like Kindle books, many other e-books, purchased music, movies - have DRM (digital rights management) embedded in it.

Your forum mod's have agreed to update our forum guidelines (defined in the Forum Decorum board) regarding discussions about DRM. Here it is, FYI.

Please let me know if there are any questions or concerns. Thanks!

- Harvey

...
_*- DRM (Digital Rights Management): We do not allow threads or posts that encourage ways to hack, crack, or otherwise get around DRM protections. The term 'DRM' refers to access control technologies used by publishers and copyright holders to limit usage of digital content. Kindle books, e-books in general, purchased music, and other published digital content typically contain DRM controls. It is acceptable to post about DRM in general, e.g. to discuss DRM-related issues and benefits.
*_...


----------



## Guest (Nov 14, 2008)

Sounds like the lawyers got to Harvey..........lol


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

As an independent software developer and author, I sincerely appreciate Harvey taking his position.


----------



## jdsmke (Oct 31, 2008)

Harvey, might I suggest pinning this to the top of the board for a while?

I also appreciate your stand on this issue.


----------



## hazeldazel (Oct 30, 2008)

I'm also glad for this policy - the more publishers and authors see that ebooks allow them to make a living, the more content we'll have available to us consumers.


----------



## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

This seems only right and proper. No sense encouraging the thieves.


----------



## Angela (Nov 2, 2008)

ditto... good to know that KindleBoards is not only fun and informative, but it has integrity, too!
Thanks, Harvey!


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

As a published and semi-professional writer who is currently having his work displayed for profit (to someone *ELSE*) without my consent, without crediting me and against my will, I firmly uphold Harvey's pro-DRM stand and am grateful for it.


----------



## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

Jim, you didn't write _Watchmen_ did you?


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

ScottBooks said:


> Jim, you didn't write _Watchmen_ did you?


HA!

No, I used to write reviews and articles for an adventure game site. I didn't get paid for my reviews, but did for my articles. The owner of the site and I had a falling out after I gave back-to-back negative reviews of games published by his largest advertiser (who was also paying him to write strategy guides for them).

The site-owner removed all my reviews from the site, but still displays some of my articles, *now* without my name. They are now credited as "Edited by _________" This is actually in violation of ________'s own publicly stated copyright policy. And have no doubt--despite the fact that the site uses a fair amount of bandwidth, it makes a profit.

If I gave a damn about the money, I'd sue. Instead, I just patrol the Internets (all of them) as a real-life example of how piracy and hacking hurt the creators of the media you lie/cheat/steal to get.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

Since I am not personally involved with happend to BJ but I am an avid gamer, I will hazard to fill in the blanks.  I don't expect you to confirm or deny my guesses.  

I guess Gamespot as the site and either Electronic Arts or possibly Microsoft as the product publisher.

I am all for anti-pirating policies.  Stealing is stealing no matter what form it takes.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice guess Vamp, but wrong. We play adventure games. Monkey Island, Gabriel Knight, Syberia, etc.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

I gave it a shot base on what I've seen in the past.  

I finally have gotten out of my SPORE addiction.  It was replaced by Fallout 3(Oblivion with guns?)


----------



## Teninx (Oct 27, 2008)

Computer games, hah. I'm still trying to figure out the 'consumation' of Leisure Suit Larry.


----------



## Dori (Oct 28, 2008)

Laffing my head off.  I remember that game.  I had it on my computer but tried to hide it from neices and nephews.


----------



## chynared21 (Oct 28, 2008)

LuckyRainbow said:


> Nice guess Vamp, but wrong. We play adventure games. Monkey Island, Gabriel Knight, Syberia, etc.


*My kind of games *


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Teninx said:


> Computer games, hah. I'm still trying to figure out the 'consumation' of Leisure Suit Larry.


  That was my first computer game. I eventually got five of them, and "consumated" Larry's quest at the Spa. Unfortunately, they were all for DOS, and I can't use them on Windows. But they were a lot of fun.


----------



## Dori (Oct 28, 2008)

Nostalgic here,  I remember DOS.  I saw my first computer at the age of 60.  Bought one soon after so I could learn. Think it had 8 MB hard drive.  First Class all the way.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

My first computer was an Atari 800.  Later on I bought a PC that had an 8086 processor, 1KB of ram and a 20 MB HD with a 5.25in floppy drive.  Whoo hoo, stylin'!


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

My first computer was a MITS Z-80 kit that I used to test a new language called BASIC that this kid named Bill was writing on a teletype every night. I progressed to a Timex, Commodore-64, TRS-80 and… You don’t really want to hear this do you?

So back on topic: Harvey, it looks like everybody agrees with you.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Yes, I think we're in agreement that it's a good policy - and that's a good thing.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

Yep, I am in total agreement, piracy is bad, M'kay.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

I still have several DOS games.  The free application DOSbox allows me to continue to replay most of them.  (My DOS games are why I didn't upgrade to XP until a year ago.  I could still access DOS in Win9


----------



## Selcien (Oct 31, 2008)

I had a rant against DRM but I opted to delete it, suffice it to say that I'm against DRM as I believe that it only allows companies to dictate how honest people use what they've legally purchased.

However, I completely agree with your stance on DRM discussions as I've posted on IGN when they weren't strict, and a person could quite easily obtain stolen music with their message boards (you used "code" words in your posts and then you got PM'ed the information that you needed). There can be legal repercussions of allowing this kind of discussion, no reason for you to be taking that kind of risk.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Bacardi Jim said:


> I still have several DOS games. The free application DOSbox allows me to continue to replay most of them. (My DOS games are why I didn't upgrade to XP until a year ago. I could still access DOS in Win9


Thanks for the info. I'd love to play with Larry again. Not to mention Freddy Farkas Frontier Farmacist ... another brilliant Sierra game.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

gertiekindle said:


> Thanks for the info. I'd love to play with Larry again. Not to mention Freddy Farkas Frontier Farmacist ... another brilliant Sierra game.


There is now a freeware version of Freddie Farkas that was released by Al Lowe's partner. Not sure where one can get it. LR has a copy. She can probably help you find it if you can't on your own.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Bacardi Jim said:


> There is now a freeware version of Freddie Farkas that was released by Al Lowe's partner. Not sure where one can get it. LR has a copy. She can probably help you find it if you can't on your own.


Thanks. I'll start looking. A five pack of Leisure Suit Larry is available on Amazon for under $20 and they've got a new one about his nephew, but that's $50.

I shouldn't even be thinking about this, but I'm so weak.


----------



## Angela (Nov 2, 2008)

Bacardi Jim said:


> I still have several DOS games. The free application DOSbox allows me to continue to replay most of them. (My DOS games are why I didn't upgrade to XP until a year ago. I could still access DOS in Win9


My old DOS games is why I have partitioned my hard drive and have both Win98 and XP... I just run whichever I am in the mood for.


----------



## Dori (Oct 28, 2008)

Would have no idea about how to do that.


----------



## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Dori said:


> Would have no idea about how to do that.


I used to know how to do that, but then I got "older" and retired and ... what were we talking about?


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2008)

DOSbox is really the way to go if you are tech challenged. It is pretty easy to do once you meet the learning curve. (It is a multi-step process to start a game.) But, well worth the effort if you love your old DOS games. Now, where is that Tex Murphy.........lol.


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2008)

I just had a thought and I am sure it's not an original one, it's too obvious.

When I buy a printed book, read it and am done with it, I usually give them away to another reader.  No one bats an eye at that.

Why are the rules so messed up for digital books?  Shouldn't there be a way to move the file from my devices to someone else's.  

I don't mean copy it.  Once I transfer the file, it is gone from my devices and the original is now on another device.  Same copy, different place.

Sure, I could all ways let someone use my Kindle to read something but that just seems wrong...like lending out my tooth brush or something.  eww.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Vampyre said:


> Why are the rules so messed up for digital books? Shouldn't there be a way to move the file from my devices to someone else's.


What you say makes perfect sense. BUT. The problem is that there's no tangible object to hand off like there is with a book. Digital media is just a bunch of zeros and ones.

DRM protected books are very much like DRM protected software insofar as the buyer is granted a license of sorts to read the book. In order to transfer ownership there would need to be some vehicle for transferring license.

Jeff


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2008)

Yep, I guess someone needs to devise a way to legally transfer the license.


----------



## hazeldazel (Oct 30, 2008)

i'm sure that to publishers, that handing off a dead tree book to a friend or selling it to a used-book store is piracy.  There's also nothing they can do about it and really, the amount of revenue they're losing is small because how many times can one copy of a book be borrowed/sold?  With electronic versions, they *can* do something about it and the potential revenue losses are huge when one person can upload an illegal copy that can be downloaded by thousands.


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2008)

I understand all that.  The biggest fallacy of my argument is comparing digital media with analog media.  Apples and Oranges similar but very very different.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff said:


> What you say makes perfect sense. BUT. The problem is that there's no tangible object to hand off like there is with a book. Digital media is just a bunch of zeros and ones.
> 
> DRM protected books are very much like DRM protected software insofar as the buyer is granted a license of sorts to read the book. In order to transfer ownership there would need to be some vehicle for transferring license.
> 
> Jeff


I've had software where there were provisions for transferring the ownership, but it was expensive software with copy protection, like a USB key. I can see where a $3.00 or even $10 book isn't worth the hassle of tracking who owns it....

Betsy


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Many software companies are charging for technical support as a method of compensating for the loss of sales revenue caused by piracy. I can’t think of an equivalent remedy for digital book publishers.

The other big difference is that I know the names of everyone who legally owns my software but I have no idea who buys my books.

Jeff


----------



## Angela (Nov 2, 2008)

gertiekindle said:


> I used to know how to do that, but then I got "older" and retired and ... what were we talking about?


LOL


----------



## MikeD (Nov 5, 2008)

I have no problem following the site policy, now that I am aware of it. So the following in no way implies that the site should change its stance. I support the right of those who run this place to determine what they do and do not want posted. That is only fair.

But since this has turned somewhat into a discussion about piracy and DRM, and in the spirit of this, "It is acceptable to post about DRM in general, e.g. to discuss DRM-related issues and benefits" let me also take this chance to express my opinion.

I do not believe in piracy, but I also do believe in the rights of those who purchase electronic media. I never have and never will illegally distribute any electronic media - be it books, music or games. But there is nothing illegal about modifying format or manipulating DRM in order to use your rightfully purchased media on other devices. That is where the "fair use doctrine" comes into play. For example, I purchased several DRMed mobipocket books from Fictionwise over the last several years for use on a PDA and then modified them such that I could also read these same books on my Kindle. These methods do NOT allow one to remove DRM, so one cannot then readily redistribute said e-book to multiple random parties.

IMHO, this is not piracy, but "fair use".

That is just my opinion, which I feel compelled to give since my reply to a member looking to modify his library for "fair use" is probably what caused the need for the clarification of site policy. 

Again, I support this site's right to determine what policies they do and do not want to implement and will follow same.


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

^ I think it is fair to say that the laws surrounding copyrights have not caught up with technology, and that most attempts to put controls in place have been problematic. (In the area of music, Sony became the last of the major record companies to allow its music to be distributed without DRM. LINK.)

There is yet to be a good method for allowing a user to use his legitimately-purchased content on more than one device, while still providing copy protection for artists and content producers. It's not evolving very quickly, either, so I think we'll be dealing with DRM and its related issues for a while.


----------



## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

MikeD said:


> That is just my opinion, which I feel compelled to give since my reply to a member looking to modify his library for "fair use" is probably what caused the need for the clarification of site policy.


We both replied to the same post in the same fashion. Another member who is rather passionate on the topic felt that I was promoting DRM hacking. I discussed it with Harvey, who then got a consensus from the other mods and added this policy to the forum rules.

The topic is going to come up all the time. People don't understand why they can't "share" their books with everybody, or read them on their computer, etc.

For those of you unfamiliar with Digital Rights Management, here's an entry on Wikipedia regarding DRM, and another entry regarding the act it falls under, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

I suppose it depends upon one’s point of view. Those of us who feed our families by selling digital media tend to become disheartened when our intellectual property ends up on a Warez web site.

Jeff


----------



## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

While there are different voices in this healthy discussion, and some differing viewpoints on DRM, I think we're clearly in consensus that it's a good policy for this forum to have.


----------

