# Why English is difficult



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I was just thinking (for no known reason why) how you can add/remove just one letter near the start of each word in this sequence, and no two of the words rhyme:


trough
tough
though
through

I'm just glad I never had to learn English as a second language.


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## 4Katie (Jun 27, 2009)

I remember trying to teach that stuff to kids in elementary school. It pretty much boils down to 'just because that's the way it is'.


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## libros_lego (Mar 24, 2009)

I had a hard time remembering how to spell "neighbor" as a child.


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## Anju  (Nov 8, 2008)

My DH teaches English to some Mexicans and Spanish to some ex-pats, and through, though, rough and bough are his favorite examples!  Spanish is pronounced the way it is spelled - I love Spanish


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Then you toss in some of the ones that do rhyme like heard, herd / two, to, too. Add in tear: do you mean rip or a drop of moisture from the eye? Slang were if you say that "there is a fat chance of that happening," you mean the same as when you say "there is a slim chance of that happening." American English spellings or British English spellings? (litre/liter, mitre/miter) I have always felt that learning English along with all the accents and idioms has to be one of the hardest languages to master.


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## libros_lego (Mar 24, 2009)

I still have a hard time with: slip/sleep, dip/deep, etc. (english is not my first language)


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

How about:


tomb
bomb
comb
aplomb


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Jenni said:


> I still have a hard time with: slip/sleep, dip/deep, etc. (english is not my first language)


I studied French for 4 years from 7th-10th grade, and never got very good at it, even though I think in many ways it's simpler than English (other than the masculine/feminine thing for every noun). I admire anyone who can learn a second language reasonably fluently.

I think perhaps English suffers from its split personality of being partly Germanic (Anglo-Saxon followed by later Norse influences) mixed with a healthy dose of French and Latin, along with Celtic and whatever else has wedged its way in there. I suspect that's why even many native speakers have trouble with it.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

NogDog, congrats on 1K posts!

Way to go, cowboy....LOL

L


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Leslie said:


> NogDog, congrats on 1K posts!
> 
> Way to go, cowboy....LOL
> 
> L


Thanks...not that I'd even noticed I was getting close.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

intinst said:


> I have always felt that learning English along with all the accents and idioms has to be one of the hardest languages to master.


Well, you have two cases:

* infants naturally acquiring
* adults learning as a second language

Arguably Korean is the hardest for an infant to acquire naturally, but as far as English being the hardest to learn as a second language, that's pretty much dependent on how closely it is related to the learner's primary language. Polish is probably very much more difficult than English to get as an additional language (7 cases, 7 genders). Stats say the average Polish speaker isn't fluent in his language until about 16 years of age, compared to 12 years of age for English.

English at the basic level is fairly easy, but to speak it like a native is hard because of the dynamic idiomatic nature.

Mike
(who many years ago used to speak French and Esperanto and knew some Italian).


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

The beauty of English is that it is both the easiest and the hardest.

The languages that have 527 rules for forming word endings are a huge challenge to learn, but once you learn those, there are far fewer exceptions. In English, partly because of its diverse ancestry, there are soooo many exceptions and special cases, not to mention an incredibly rich supply of idiomatic expressions that defy grammatical analysis. All this makes learning English more of an art; it's slippery enough that you can't just memorize 527 rules and be done with it, but instead you have to "feel" the language as you learn it.

BUT for the same reasons -- the relatively few rules and the forgiving flexibility of the language -- it's also the easiest language for people to learn for _basic_ communication. Learn a dozen nouns and a dozen verbs and a dozen prepositions _and you can get your point across_, not flawlessly but well enough for someone to understand your basic needs in an emergency. This doesn't work in a language in which getting the endings wrong totally changes the meaning of the words.

Mike, I'm curious -- can you elaborate on why Korean is so difficult for an infant to learn?


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## carlobee (Jul 21, 2009)

that's really true.. even with same words but different meanings and pronunciations like "minute"


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

carlobee said:


> that's really true.. even with same words but different meanings and pronunciations like "minute"


"Bow" is another good(?) one: a single spelling, two different pronunciations, and at least four different meanings.

Take a bow.
The bow of the ship.
Tie a bow.
Violin bow, or bow and arrow.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Mike, I'm curious -- can you elaborate on why Korean is so difficult for an infant to learn?


It's a bit complicated..... in part, the language constructions that take children the longest to get right are what are called "long-distance dependencies" (interrogative words having a particular order) of reflexive pronouns (myself, yourself, himself, etc.). Korean children apparently don't manage to do this correctly until about 5 years of age, significantly after children learning other languages.

This isn't my area of expertise, by any means. Linguistics is a minor hobby, and I can talk myself into a corner very quickly.

Mike


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Ah yes, the joys of learning english  . Its my second language, or my third if you count bavarian as one  .

When I first moved to the US I felt like half a person. My days of school taught Oxford English were long gone by then. Its a very lonely place when you can not comprehend half of whats being said to you and not really being able to convey your own thoughts to another person. 
Even worse is when you don't get the jokes. Cannot explain how miserable it is not to be able to get it. Part I am sure is differences in humor. 

I remember my first "new" words, Hogie's and Bagels  . 

My breakthrough came, I think, when I was able to read books in english. There is a point you cross when you finally immerse yourself in the new language and not translate in your head anymore. 

I think I do better with hearing and reading than actual grammar. I mean I can read and pronounce and go by memory, but I couldn't tell you what the grammar rules are. I just don't remember that part of english class. 

I am trying to think of words I have issues with, but I can't think of any right now, I am sure there are some. 

I do agree with someone that mentioned accents, or rather it would be dialects? I live in Texas now, but I don't sound like a Texan, nor will I ever. I have no clue what I sound like. I have been told I sound Alaskan by some and then I was told I sound like I was from Louisiana by others  . I think I might have been a bit tipsy in the latter case  .

My first job here was in a Military town working at a convenience store and customers came from everywhere across the United States.  . Everytime I thought I finally made progress, it went right out the window again. 

Personally, I like the sound of British English, Scottish even more.


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## libros_lego (Mar 24, 2009)

I actually learned more english grammar when I took three semesters of latin in college.


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## geko29 (Dec 23, 2008)

If you think English is bad, check out Chinese.  Each word can have up to 6 "inflections" that completely change the meaning.  Remember the old joke about Tom(eh)to vs. Tom(ah)to?  How confusing would it be if the first one was a red fruit that tastes good with Mozzarella and the latter was a car?


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## Tip10 (Apr 16, 2009)

Being that I speak but one language I had never even thought of this aspect before. Way (Way TOO far) back in my college days during one interesting idea exchange session (a polite way of saying we were sitting around imbibing and BSing) one of my friends asked another (who happened to be extremely fluent in 3 languages and spoke two others passably) which one he "thought" in. I found his answer quite interesting. 
He said that it depended upon subject matter -- some things were easier to explain in one language so he'd tend to use that one and then make the necessary translations as the situation required. If it was simpler topics he said he just tended to stay with whichever language he was using at the time. He said the only times he actively translated back and forth were for the two he was only passable in and then he said that, at least for him, in conversing in those languages what seemed to arrive at his brain was not the language being spoken -- he said you spoke but he "heard" a different language and "responded" in that language but what came out of his mouth was in the language you spoke.
AND the _really_ interesting part was the language he "heard" and "responded" in would generally be based upon the APPEARANCE of the person he was speaking with -- it they looked more "english" it'd be english, if they looked more "dutch" it'd be dutch, if they looked like they might be from the islands (he was from Aruba) then it'd be the dialect he grew up with.

Any of you others who are fluent in multiple languages care to weigh in here -- what language do you _THINK_ in? Is it your native one or do you change or what?


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## Garand (Jul 14, 2009)

Lest we forget:
their
there
they're

-- and while we're at it, the internet has given us a slew (no, not slough, slue and that other _slew_) of acronyms gradually making their way into our lexicon. LOL!

Dave
BTW, I have a 17 page Word document of internet acronyms and shorthand I've collected over the years. It is frequently obscure, obscene, scatological and definitely NSFW. Send me a PM if you wish a copy.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I speak 3 languages fairly fluently, and about 5 others in bits and pieces.. for the fluent ones, I think your friend was right, if I am talking with someone of spanish/mexican or french descent I do tend to think and respond in spanish or french. Otherwise, I hear the language, translate to english, translate answer back and then speak.
and yeah, I know I am missing capitalizations all through this but atm.. I'm too tired to care.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Jenni said:


> I actually learned more english grammar when I took three semesters of latin in college.


That may have been the lasting lesson from the four years of French I studied (and since have probably forgotten 3 years' worth): I learned more about English.


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

English isn't difficult.  All these words are quite learnable.


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## Anju  (Nov 8, 2008)

It is much easier to learn a language, at any age, when you actually live in an environment where the language is spoken.  It is also easier for younger folks.  A lot of people here complain that I'm 60 or 70 or whatever age they are and they just cannot learn Spanish.  Bunch of hooey, it is learnable, you just have to work at it like anything else in the world worth learning.  

off soapbox, sorry folks


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

Atunah said:


> I think I do better with hearing and reading than actual grammar. I mean I can read and pronounce and go by memory, but I couldn't tell you what the grammar rules are. I just don't remember that part of english class.


Don't worry, most native speakers don't know grammar either


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## Scheherazade (Apr 11, 2009)

The lack of any real connection between spelling and the way the words are pronounced in the English language is definitely its biggest downfall.  Just using Š (sh) for example we have words like sugar, nausea, ocean, suspicious, chaperon, schist, fuschia, influential... Then there are all of the idioms, but every language has their own expressions that are difficult for outsiders to learn.

That being said, English has three very strong things going for it in terms of it being an easy language to learn.  We have borrowed so many words from other languages that English has become one of the more cosmopolitan languages on the planet.  I won't even go into all the words we've taken from folks, but we have everything from Italian to Spanish to Greek and Persian that we use daily.  It's such a... melting pot of every other language that there's immediately something familiar there for the ESL folks.

Secondly is the matter of simplistic inflectional rules.  Japanese, Italian, Spanish... so many of their words depend solely on inflection.  We have plurals and possessives instead of the inflections of Old English now and we have almost completely done away with subjunctive verbs.  The third and one of the biggest things that makes English easy is the use of natural gender over grammatical gender.  All of our nouns are considered neuter and only those referring to living creatures have any sort of gender assignment and then it is only based on the gender of the creature, not the noun itself.  So no having to learn that el mesa is wrong and la mesa is correct, or the differences between eso and esa and este and esta.

We also only have EIGHT inflectional cases for nouns.  Compare that to French where they have nearly 200 and I know which I'd want to learn.  Then take into consideration our simple preterits with -t or -d at the end instead of all the conjugation you get with most languages... I think folks learning English have it pretty easy


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

Scheherazade said:


> We have borrowed so many words from other languages that English has become one of the more cosmopolitan languages on the planet. I won't even go into all the words we've taken from folks, but we have everything from Italian to Spanish to Greek and Persian that we use daily. It's such a... melting pot of every other language that there's immediately something familiar there for the ESL folks.


That's a very nice way to think of it.


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

Last week I attended our first state conference for the WV Supreme Court Court Reporters.  
One of our speakers spoke on grammer.  
Keep in mind that, not only do we report all court proceedings, but we also prepare transcripts, 
which, of course, includes proofreading.  She had a power point presentation.  (I think that's what
they are called.  The visual aides on a screen in front of us.  Sorry, I haven't been in a 
setting that calls for a lot of presentations.)  Anyway, I felt very bad for the presenter because
we managed to find about a half dozen mistakes based on her own rules.  She was laughing about it, 
but she did leave the conference room pretty quickly when her time was up.  
I had a refresher english class a few years ago.  But it seems like the rules keep changing.  
deb


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh, it never fails.  This is why it's a good idea to have someone else look at the presentation before you give it!

Betsy


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## suicidepact (May 17, 2009)

I just skimmed this, but have we gotten to 'your' and 'you're' yet? When I was young my mom used to constantly correct my grammar, especially the difference between won and beat. It seems silly now but when I was young I used to say "The Giants won the A's last night" when I meant they beat them in the baseball game. What's silly is that unlike the post-topic, this isn't confusing at all, I was just refusing to think about what I was saying. By the way, I now find myself correcting my mother's grammar occasionally and she finds it infuriating.


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## drenee (Nov 11, 2008)

One of the things the presenter went over was your and you're...too and to...their and they're and there, among others. 
I keep thinking that as adults, and especially professional adults, we would not make those simple mistakes.  But, alas, it happens.
deb


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

When it comes to typing, sometimes my fingers seem to have a life of their own, typing what they "here" even though I certainly "no" the difference. I definitely have to proofread anything I type for those nasty homonyms that the spell-checker will miss. My fingers also like to add a "g" to the end of any word that ends in "in", even though I'm not thinking or hearing that "g" in my mind. (At least that _usually_ results in a typo that the spell-checker will find.)


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

deb, your presenter should have been alert enough to say, "yes!  you saw that. . . ..keep looking. . . . ." and made like the 'mistakes' were there on purpose to see if people were paying attention.  

Sounds, though, like they were legitimate mistakes and, yeah, especially with a topic like that, she should have had a proof reader!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I was watching the Good Morning America news, and I was appalled that on a graphic about the stock market, it had it's where its was clearly indicated.  Sheesh. 

Betsy


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## Annalog (Dec 28, 2008)

NogDog said:


> When it comes to typing, sometimes my fingers seem to have a life of their own, ... My fingers also like to add a "g" to the end of any word that ends in "in", even though I'm not thinking or hearing that "g" in my mind. ...


My fingers also like to add that unwanted "g" as well as adding other unwanted word endings. The one that bothers me the most is having my fingers add an "n" to the end of "ratio".  Unfortunately the spell checker won't catch that one.


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