# Cream rising -- a question of density



## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

I've been lurking on the boards for a few days and I signed up so I could ask for some thoughts from you guys. I'm not a publishing writer, but I am a reader and someone interested in the way things are moving with increasingly open direct producer->customer channels such as the Kindle and iOS devices. I see a few active threads about reviews, but none directly addressing my question, so I hope it's appropriate to open a new thread.

From the earliest days of the web the idea of "democratising" the market of ideas and products has been promoted. This process has two elements: the opening of the channels to get products to the consumer and the matching ability for consumers to be led by the opinions of other consumers. There's no doubt that the world has shifted enormously in the first regard, but I'm beginning to seriously question whether we're keeping up in the second and I believe this is a serious problem for both producers and consumers.

To put it in self-publishing terms -- how do I, as a reader, find these new authors to read? The hope would be that I would be led by my fellow consumers, possibly via the "people who bought this" recommendations but more specifically by the reviews. The reviews are meant to be a kind of system for allowing word-of-mouth to spread without physical limitations. Unfortunately, I can't say that I see that this is working at the moment.

I've spent a good few hours looking at Amazon and Smashwords, specifically looking at self-published authors, and my experience has left me mistrusting the reviews as any sort of guide at all. The problem is that I'm just swamped with books that are apparently nearly perfect. If you look on Smashwords' highest rated lists you'll see books that have 25+ five star reviews and not a single dissenting voice. On Amazon it's not quite so whitewashed, but there are still pages upon pages of overall five star rated books.

"Hey! What's the problem?" You might ask. "Aren't you happy there are so many great books?" Well, the problem is that there really aren't that many great books. There's no getting away from the fact that some of these five star books are utterly awful and the reviews are clearly gamed and a greater number are mediocre to okay and being massively oversold by reviews that are at least questionable even if not dishonest. My point is that, as a consumer, I've got no guide to follow -- no signifiers of quality. I'm left faced with a wall of apparently indistinguishably brilliant books that I have to laboriously sample with a depressingly low hit rate. To be blunt, who can be bothered?

As authors, what's your view on this? Some of you are obviously managing to find an audience, but does it not concern you that there seems to be this failure in the mechanism for truly democratising the market?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'll answer this as a reader. 

I use a combination of things to find my next read. I look at reviews, I sample and I follow a few blogs whose opinion I trust. Those things combine to give me a pretty good idea of not just the quality of the book, but the likelihood I'll enjoy it.

The review system is flawed. No two people use it the same way and there are, sadly, those who abuse it. But it's the best we have for now. Use it as a piece your decision making process and you'll do pretty well.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

I've struggled with your question a lot. Over the past year I've read (or I should say started) quite a few indie books and, out of all of them, only three have proven to be what I would consider well-done. Most of them were just dreadful. BUT (and this is important) lots of readers don't seem to care about the quality of the writing if the story gives them what they are looking for (and that varies). 

My approach has been to post samples of my writing (accessible through my blog) and hope that people will like my style and choose to read my books but one can never tell.

I wish there were some sort of standards guide for evaluating books but currently there isn't. People can get their friends to write 5-star reviews for them regardless of what their book is like. This is an evolving process and we have a long way to go.


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## Budo von Stahl (Aug 31, 2010)

An evening spent cruising this board, compiling a list of reviewers, might be better spent than cruising point-of-sale reviews.  A fair number of reviewers post here (I believe there is a thread started to list them, even).  Check them out, select the ones that suit you best, and spread the word!  The better reviewers will "rise", and so will the genuine pearls they sift for you.


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## JenniferBecton (Oct 21, 2010)

I really rely on sampling. Heavily.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I recommend sampling before buying. If 10% isn't enough (what you'll find on Amazon) try smashwords where writers can offer a larger percentage. 
Reviews can be helpful, but everyone has different tastes and different criteria. 

As a reader, I feel exactly the same about my experience with traditionally published books--they may be slicker, may be professionally edited, but that doesn't guarantee I'll like a book.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

As a writer, reviewer, and reader, I see this issue from all three sides.

As a writer trying to make my book stand out in the vast, vast forest of books is a daunting task.  Readers want to find good fiction, I want to give it to them, but the mechanisms for getting book to reader is chancy as best. If I ever stumble upon the magic bullet of how to get a good book to shine, I'll post it here.  But as of yet, my gun remains empty.

As a reviewer I work to help connect readers to writers.  When I post anywhere other than my blog I make sure my review title (The Indie Book Review: Insert Book Here) shows up on all my reviews.  Maybe that gives the review a little more weight.  Hopefully the quality of the review will help readers see that whatever book I'm writing about delivers the goods.  

As a reader I check the reviews of the books and look at the sample.  When I do the review reading I read the low numbers first.  They usually point out things that are my pet peeves as well.  Then I read the glowing praise.  If it's got a low number of reviews I check on the authors of the reviews to see if they've reviewed anything else.  (It's amazing how many of those 5 star reviewers out there have never reviewed anything else.)  Then I hit the sample.  If the reviews are good, and the sample is good, I'll take a chance on it.  

While it's true some authors are gaming the reviews, they can't game the sample.  I have found precisely one book where the sample was great and the book didn't live up to it.  (It was frightfully disappointing.  It went off the rails 2 pages from the end.)  Most books with unearned glowing reviews will give themselves away within the pages of the sample.


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## JenniferBecton (Oct 21, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> As a reader, I feel exactly the same about my experience with traditionally published books--they may be slicker, may be professionally edited, but that doesn't guarantee I'll like a book.


This is my feeling as well. I've been disappointed by lots of trad pubbed books, even if they were highly reviewed and touted all over as the best book on earth. I'm reading one right now in fact. It started off ok in the first 10 percent, so I bought it, but it's going nowhere fast.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

What you see in Amazon reviews is democratising the web.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Incidentally, when I see an indie book with ALL 5-star reviews I regard that with extreme skepticism. Maybe I'm deluded but if anyone is really that good they would be with a big-name publisher.

But then, of course, I have to add that a couple of my books have all 5-star reviews so perhaps I shouldn't read my own writing.....


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

I think the point I'm trying to make is that, as a reader, I find it hard to see that many people could justify the effort of checking sample after sample. The danger that I see is that rather than becoming more open to self-published writing, they will be forced to look for ways to filter them out (I believe there have been some calls for such filters already). I'm wondering whether, as authors in this environment, you feel concerned about the situation or have considered possibilities for the "indies" to try to resolve it. For example, in independent games development, there are efforts to promote the best of what's on offer through organisations and events such as the IGF awards.

Just to nip a potential argument in the bud. This isn't a question of whether traditional publishing guarantees quality or whether self-publishing cannot deliver quality. It's clear that neither of those statements are true. What is true is that traditional publishing offers a set of filters and signposts that consumers can use to greatly increase their chances of finding a book that they are happy with. I really don't think it can be argued that you have a much better chance of getting a book you'll like if you pick one blindfold off the shelf at a bookshop as opposed to randomly pulling one from a set of self-published works on Amazon.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I sample trad published books too. It's not just a question of finding quality, it's a question of finding books I like - and that's qualitative enough I find the sample works best for me. Kind of like reading the first chapter in a bookstore before I buy .


Yes, I'm not saying that people don't sample traditionally published books. I'm saying that the probability of finding a book you like is much higher and that the chances of doing the same with self-published books is low enough that sampling becomes an unrewarding activity.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Muddled, I too am a reader not a writer. I can tell you what I do. I read the threads here on KB.. in all of the various sub-forums. I read what the authors write here, see their signature lines, and go from there. In the Book Bazaar there are 2 stickied threads maintained by member Jeff that are lists of the authors. One is separated by Genre. it's a good place to start. The covers in the sig lines are my other source for material. The Book Corner is another good place.. You can ask about books, read recommendations, read reviews, and conversations about books & authors there.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

muddled said:


> I've been lurking on the boards for a few days and I signed up so I could ask for some thoughts from you guys. I'm not a publishing writer, but I am a reader and someone interested in the way things are moving with increasingly open direct producer->customer channels such as the Kindle and iOS devices. I see a few active threads about reviews, but none directly addressing my question, so I hope it's appropriate to open a new thread.
> 
> From the earliest days of the web the idea of "democratising" the market of ideas and products has been promoted. This process has two elements: the opening of the channels to get products to the consumer and the matching ability for consumers to be led by the opinions of other consumers. There's no doubt that the world has shifted enormously in the first regard, but I'm beginning to seriously question whether we're keeping up in the second and I believe this is a serious problem for both producers and consumers.
> 
> ...


Look to RedAdept's reviews. Not whitewahsed. Not biased and, although not an index, will lead you to some cream - anything 3 stars and above by her is a good indicator.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Harry Shannon (Jul 30, 2010)

Agreed. Sample. Always.  That feature is a life-saver, and a lot like thumbing through a novel in the bookstore to see if it grabs you.

However, I see your larger point. It's chaotic and overwhelming out there. No one has an answer at the moment, although some authors have begun to band together create their own "gateway" for the reader. Top Suspense Group is one example.

When I was a hardcover mid-lister, was always told "word of mouth sells books," not advertising or promotional gimmicks, etc. Get readers and book sellers to talk about you, meet people, shake a lot of hands. Word of mouth not hype. Despite the current landscape, suspect that is still true, and that it will continue to be the case. If a friend you respect recommends the book, chances are you'll like it too. 

I'm a fan. I buy a ton of books, and have picked a few clunkers in my day, but keep on trucking. When I find an author I respect, I try to stay loyal and buy their stuff regularly to support a difficult career. Can't read 'em all, but we can certainly try!


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Incidentally, when I see an indie book with ALL 5-star reviews I regard that with extreme skepticism. Maybe I'm deluded but if anyone is really that good they would be with a big-name publisher.
> 
> But then, of course, I have to add that a couple of my books have all 5-star reviews so perhaps I shouldn't read my own writing.....


You need to remember that these are raader reviews, not professioal reviews. I only speak up because I have one such book, and I'm as flabbergasted as you are - all five stars, all from reader-strangers (not friends or family - I have few of them) and not from colleague authors. It gives me personal goosebumps (the technical term for which is horripilation).  All my other books have a range of ratings, but out of 220 reviews over 16 books, I have only 4 one star and 4 two star reviews. I might need to pay for some more ones and twos so my cred as an author doesn't wane.  However, remember, this is reader feedback and reaction. Professional reviewers scale their reactions more tightly. So, if you see a book with all five stars, gage it by the following.

1 - Are they all fly bys (OMG what at great book) or do they make critical analysis.
2 - Are you even interested in the book.
3 - If so, sample it. Don;t dismiss it as rigged. If others honestly liked the book and you have an interest, it might be worth a time investment to read a few chapters.

Just my feeling on this subject. As an author, my best voice is my readers' voices. It's a "damned if you do, damn;ed if you don't" situation when people say: "Of course, you say great things about your book. What do other s say?" and then turn around as say "Too many stars. Then you should be a big name. You're cheating." Big named authors do not have 5-star ourity, I might add. Honest ***** (and I'm Chreokee, so I can use the self-depracating term).

Edward C. Patterson


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## JenniferBecton (Oct 21, 2010)

I guess I don't really understand the issue. If quality is not the issue and finding something you like is the issue, then I don't see how having a publisher vetting the book is going to help, unless you are the publisher vetting it.

I just got a book I thought I would enjoy. It is trad pubbed, got high reviews from PW, and I sampled it. Still, I was fooled. It is going nowhere. It's just personal preference. Others love it. It's just the risk you take when you buy anything that has a subjective nature.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" The danger that I see is that rather than becoming more open to self-published writing, they will be forced to look for ways to filter them out (I believe there have been some calls for such filters already).'_

Of course they will. That's how they got to the book page. They already had a filter at work. What made them seek the page out? How did they get there? They have to get to the page before they can even notice a bunch of reviews. They have already done the filtering you suggest to get to the page.

If the reviews of fellow consumers are helping you find the book, you have to have found the book before those consumers can lend a hand,


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Harry Shannon said:


> However, I see your larger point. It's chaotic and overwhelming out there. No one has an answer at the moment, although some authors have begun to band together create their own "gateway" for the reader. Top Suspense Group is one example.


Thanks, I'll check that out.

Perhaps the answer to at least part of my question can be found in the well-meaning but misdirected answers telling me about the extra steps I can take to find self-published authors rather than understanding that "How do I, as a reader, find these new authors to read?" is a rhetorical question pointing out the unrealistic effort that is currently expected of consumers when navigating the world of self-published books.

Even if I am committed enough to spend several hours poking around forums, following sigs, tracking blogs and creating a personal list of trusted reviewers*, I seriously doubt that the great mass of consumers is even slightly interested in doing the same. It seems to me that the indie author world needs to take a hard look at what they need to do to ease the path for the customer. Whether that means coming up with ways to rescue the review system from its current state, the creation of awards, elevation and promotion of trusted reviewers or banding together to form publishing collectives that provide some sort of quality filter, I don't know.

*Actually, I'm not, at least not for the purposes of tracking down more books to add to my "to be read pile".


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

My suggestion is to find a reviewer or two that you trust.  You can even get review blogs sent right to your Kindle.  Red Adept was mentioned, but there are more if you find that you don't like some of the books Red really liked.

If you find a reviewer you trust, you won't have to sample.  Just read their reviews and chose from there.

IMHO, blog reviewers will become the gatekeepers of the future.

Vicki


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> Thanks, I'll check that out.
> 
> Perhaps the answer to at least part of my question can be found in the well-meaning but misdirected answers telling me about the extra steps I can take to find self-published authors rather than understanding that "How do I, as a reader, find these new authors to read?" is a rhetorical question pointing out the unrealistic effort that is currently expected of consumers when navigating the world of self-published books.
> 
> ...


So, what you're saying is you're not really interested in finding good indie books. You just asked how to find good indie books to prove a point that you can't trust most reviews.

Or did I read you wrong?

Vicki


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"IMHO, blog reviewers will become the gatekeepers of the future."_

The blog reviews will be like the displays on the first floor of B&N. The B&N store has a quarter million books, and a few hundred are featured in displays by the entrance.

If eBooks dominate paper books in the future, the OP question can be directed at all eBooks. How does a reader find any eBook that is not also in paper? Where will he look?


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Or did I read you wrong?


Somewhat. My question is more broadly about the market and the failure to realise the consumer-led guidance side of democratising the market. My closing paragraph was:



> As authors, what's your view on this? Some of you are obviously managing to find an audience, but does it not concern you that there seems to be this failure in the mechanism for truly democratising the market?


I am interested in finding interesting authors, as my description of the efforts I've made should make clear. My interest isn't the issue though. My point here is to express how, even as an interested consumer, the labour involved in digging through the undifferentiated offerings is too much to expect.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Terrence OBrien said:


> _"IMHO, blog reviewers will become the gatekeepers of the future."_
> 
> The blog reviews will be like the displays on the first floor of B&N. The B&N store has a quarter million books, and a few hundred are featured in displays by the entrance.
> 
> If eBooks dominate paper books in the future, the OP question can be directed at all eBooks. How does a reader find any eBook that is not also in paper? Where will he look?


If I were looking for a book, and not specifically looking for an indie book, I would do a genre search on Amazon. I would first look at title/cover and price before choosing what to click on and read the blurb.

I don't think the problem is finding good books. The problem is not having enough time to read them all! 

Vicki


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## Budo von Stahl (Aug 31, 2010)

Victorine said:


> My suggestion is to find a reviewer or two that you trust.
> Vicki


This. Actually, you might be surprised to learn that you are more willing than you think. There is no NYT list for Indies, but everyone has heard of it; there are no posters or endcap displays for Indies like in the bookstore; few Indies will advertise on TV. You actually do more "extra steps" to find good dead tree books than you realize: you are just accustomed to them. What we are saying in too many words is simply that there is no greater number of 'steps', just different ones. Do them now, and once you get accustomed to them (have them in your favorites menu) you won't notice them anymore either. We had to learn a few different steps (self-editing, formatting, promoting) to get them to you, too.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

muddled said:


> Thanks, I'll check that out.
> 
> Perhaps the answer to at least part of my question can be found in the well-meaning but misdirected answers telling me about the extra steps I can take to find self-published authors rather than understanding that "How do I, as a reader, find these new authors to read?" is a rhetorical question pointing out the unrealistic effort that is currently expected of consumers when navigating the world of self-published books.
> 
> ...


That's a completely unrealistic expectation. How do you find trad published books now? Do you really think all of the reviews on those books are all that much more helpful, even if not all 5-star? Do you sample them? Do you ever find any dogs among the stars despite the reviews and samples?

Expecting indie authors to re-do the Amazon review system or any of those other things (many of which have been discussed here before, by the way) is ludicrous. You're an adult I'm guessing, you should be able to choose a book to read - whether trad published or indie published - based on the criteria available to you and your own common sense. Sure, you'll get some dogs. That's part of life. The more you learn and refine your techniques, the fewer you'll get.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Yes, there is dreck being self published. Yes, we hope readers will navigate the crowded system and use tools (on amazon or elsewhere) to find us. If they don't work for you, that's a shame, but I'm beginning to feel like you don't want an answer .


I'm sorry you think that, but I'm not sure why you're coming to that conclusion. You just seem to think I'm asking a question that I'm not.

I'm saying that, as a consumer, it's a nightmare trying to find something to read amongst self-published authors and to the point where it's difficult to justify the effort. I wasn't looking for suggestions on how I can make more effort. I'm wondering if this is a recognised problem in the self-publishing scene and if people are trying to do anything about it.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Steph H said:


> Expecting indie authors to re-do the Amazon review system or any of those other things (many of which have been discussed here before, by the way) is ludicrous.


I'm not "expecting" anything. It's just a question based on the fact that other indie scenes have done those things.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> Somewhat. My question is more broadly about the market and the failure to realise the consumer-led guidance side of democratising the market. My closing paragraph was:
> 
> I am interested in finding interesting authors, as my description of the efforts I've made should make clear. My interest isn't the issue though. My point here is to express how, even as an interested consumer, the labour involved in digging through the undifferentiated offerings is too much to expect.


I'm not sure how finding a good indie book differs a lot from finding a good trad published book. But maybe I just tolerate the extra steps and it doesn't bother me to grab a sample before buying.

I, for one, think the money I save is a huge incentive for me to take the extra steps to find good indie books to read. But if it's too difficult for you, feel free to stick with traditionally published books. (And I'm totally not saying that in a snarky way. To each his own.)

Vicki


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## Budo von Stahl (Aug 31, 2010)

muddled said:


> I'm wondering if this is a recognised problem in the self-publishing scene and if people are trying to do anything about it.


Oh, believe me, we are aware and concerned about it. In fact, Lee Goldberg started a very popular thread the other day that slogged through a lot of it. We are trying to think up solutions, and any and all suggestions are welcome!


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

"I'm wondering if this is a recognised problem in the self-publishing scene and if people are trying to do anything about it"

At a recent publishers convention, a VP of Random House said RH expects 50% of books to be eBooks by 2004. That's less than three years from now. So I doubt we will see a unique effort by independents. It will probably evolve together with publishers' and retailers' efforts. As more and more books have only electronic editions, a whole variety of mechanisms will evolve for identifying and evaluating books. Targeted advertising is one obvious solution. It's happened before, and the participants in those industries didn't have a coordinated set of plans and models.

As these methods evolve, they will satisy some and leave others wanting more. 

So, to directly answer your question: 1) independents know people have a hard time dealing with a lot of undifferentiated eBooks, and 2) they have no coordinated plan to deal with it.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I think you're assuming your experience generalizes to everyone else.


I'm assuming that the problem of bringing products to the attention of customers and the enabling of customers to make purchasing choices quickly and easily resulting in a satisfactory conclusion is a general one. I think that's a safe assumption.



modwitch said:


> We're individuals, not a well organized machine. What kinds of steps do you think individual authors can take to make the system better? (realistic ones - overhauling how user reviews work at amazon isn't within our sphere of influence)


I've already mentioned several strategies that have been used in other areas so I'm not sure why the question is being redirected back at me. If your point is that you are by nature not an organised group then my response would simply be that organisation grows from individual efforts. You may be an individual, but you are also clearly part of a self-defining group of people with a set of shared interests and goals. That seems fertile ground for organising for mutual benefit. As for overhauling user reviews, I never actually suggested that authors could or should do that on a technical level, but there's nothing stopping you coming up with suggestions for Amazon and presenting those as a group. Nor is there anything stopping you creating a parallel system of reviews or some other trust mechanism.

Terrence, you may be right that as the big publishers move more heavily into e-books that they push the consumer choice methodology forward, but I'd be unlikely to believe that they would do so with an altruistic motive. If I were them I'd be very keen to make the differentiation between their product and the self-published scene as stark as possible.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"I'm confused. Isn't it 2011? (Just had one of those weird moments where I wonder what year it really is...)"_

Damn. Foiled again.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"Terrence, you may be right that as the big publishers move more heavily into e-books that they push the consumer choice methodology forward, but I'd be unlikely to believe that they would do so with an altruistic motive. If I were them I'd be very keen to make the differentiation between their product and the self-published scene as stark as possible."_

Of course they won't be altruistic. Neither will independents. Nor will retailers be altruistic. Who is altruistic in a market? There will be numerous competitors. Some will be big pubs, some small pubs, and some independents. They will all be looking for their own advantage. Some will succeed. Some will fail. Others will be taken over. Many will find other employment. New people will enter the industry. Methods and tactics will emerge and the successful ones will be adopted by others.

Everyone will be trying to position and differentiate their products. They will all use whatever they can to do that. Everyone will try to appear unique and superior.

I don't think we can say how big publishers will deal with consumer choice when 50% are eBooks, even if we presume affording consumer choice is important to them. Nor do I think we can say how independents will do it. But, what history has shown us is that such methods and tactics emerge. It also shows us that we are not smart enough to know what they will be. We haven't been that smart so far, so I doubt we will change much.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"By chance, did you mean 2014?"_

2014 is indeed the date she gave. She said they predict 50% eBooks by then, and added that some categories had already reached the 50% mark. I'd love to know which ones they are.

So, here's what I wonder. If RH says 50% in 36 months, and it takes 18 months to get a paper book out, what's going to happen to paper contracts 18 months from now? How many paper book contracts will they be signing in July 2012? Half what they are signing today? Or will they continue to publish the same book in paper and eBook, expecting 50% of sales to be eBook? In either case, what happens to bookstores? (Borders?)


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

I think in any market, the consumer has a responsibility to ensure their own satisfaction. 

When a movie comes out, the job of the trailer is to make you think you'll have the grandest form of entertainment and excitement. How many times have you seen the actors of said movies give interviews telling how great and exciting it is and how much fun it was to make? "Come see my movie!" they say with exuberance.

You see the movie and it stinks...

But there are review sites for movies. Sites you can find to agree or disagree with the opinions of either the professional reviewer or the amateur. Did you check any of them out?

It isn't the job of the producer, the film studio, the actor, or the movie theater to guarantee that you will 100% without a doubt enjoy their product. 

Their job is to attempt to make the best movie they can make and try to give the audience the best experience they can have. After that, their job is to sell the movie.

When you see a car commercial, you listen to the narrator go over all the features of the car, tell you they will make your life ever so enjoyable, simple, and easy. You can see the beautiful styling and imagine the power of the engine as you sit behind the wheel and quickly accelerate ahead of the guy in last years model...Ahhhh! can you feel it?

When you go to the dealer their job is to sell you the car. Did you do your research about the car? About comparable cars? About the dealership? About financing companies?

Or did you go by that commercial whose only purpose is to make you want to buy the car? As a car buyer, you have a responsibility to yourself to do your research. (It's not the manufacturer's job, the car seller, or the mechanics.) It is yours--the consumer.

When that politician appears on the T.V., or radio, or in the newspaper telling you how great they will make your life...Do you research their ideas and compare candidates? Do you go by that little "R" or "D" that reveals their party? Do you listen to the news shows that "honestly" try to discuss the benefits of each candidate?

And when you vote (or do not vote) do you make an informed decision before you push that button?

If not, whose fault is it that you're unhappy with the results. The politician? The media? Those lying people passing out flyers in the front of the polling station? Or yours?

The quality of any Democracy is going to be created by the ability and will of the citizens to make an informed decision. The power of a Democracy is that it gives you choice.

Choice comes with responsibility. The job of one group is to make the best product they can make--and then get you to buy it. The job of the movie goer, the car buyer, and especially the voter is to take the responsibility necessary to make the best choice.

If they're unwilling to do that, then they have to take responsibility for the quality of the product they purchased.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

A.R. Williams said:


> I think in any market, the consumer has a responsibility to ensure their own satisfaction.
> 
> When a movie comes out, the job of the trailer is to make you think you'll have the grandest form of entertainment and excitement. How many times have you seen the actors of said movies give interviews telling how great and exciting it is and how much fun it was to make? "Come see my movie!" they say with exuberance.
> 
> ...


Wow. That was so well said. I'm in awe of your well articulated greatness, AR.

Vicki


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

Excellent post, A.R.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

A.R. Williams said:


> I think in any market, the consumer has a responsibility to ensure their own satisfaction.


Yes, to an extent, but that's not being argued. The issue is that there are two broad providers of product, you guys are one set and the traditional publishers are the other. A consumer engaging with the traditional world is being presented with a selection that has already been vetted for many quality issues, categorised according to understood guidelines and likely reviewed by known trust entities. None of that is true of the self-publishing world. It's not a matter of whether the customer gets to randomly pick a book and then complain because they don't like the result, it's an issue of the quality of information available to the customer for them to make a satisfactory choice with reasonable effort.

If I go to a new car dealer and buy a Smart car when I need a minivan, clearly I've messed up. If I go to a car dealer and they just point me at an airfield of cars hidden under covers that all say "excellent car" and then tell me I should just look under the cover and test drive them all, they're messing up. The analogy breaks down because the money involved in a car purchase might just persuade me to make the effort if they look cheap but it's not my analogy to start with.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

A.R. Williams said:


> I think in any market, the consumer has a responsibility to ensure their own satisfaction.
> 
> When a movie comes out, the job of the trailer is to make you think you'll have the grandest form of entertainment and excitement. How many times have you seen the actors of said movies give interviews telling how great and exciting it is and how much fun it was to make? "Come see my movie!" they say with exuberance.
> 
> ...


What he said. Or to put it more succinctly: Caveat emptor.

The reader has to read reviews and ratings to see which of the Big 6 novels stink and many, many of them do, vetted or not. (Were you under the impression all Big 6 novels are good? I hate to disillusion you)

That's what the reader to do with indie novels.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

If you're only going to Smashwords and looking at the reviews of the books, you're going to have a harder time finding good indie books.

Try going to Red Adept's website and peek through her reviews. She's not posting reviews to sell you books, like some of the reviews from friends or family of an indie. She prides herself on her _honest and thorough reviews_.

The books she gives good reviews on are vetted. The same goes for other quality reviewers. If they gave out all 5 stars, they would become useless. So they don't.

That's the best suggestion I can give. Find a quality reviewer and search through their many reviews. There's a lot of quality books to chose from, in many different genres.

Vicki


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I'm curious about these two, because I think they're quite different than your quality point from earlier. What categories do you feel trad pubs use that are helpful to the consumer (and that indie authors don't)? And as a reader, what are your 'known trust entities' for trad pubbed books?
> 
> I was being feisty earlier, but these are questions of honest curiosity .


They're different but part of the same customer experience quality issue. My point about categories isn't that I see categories that aren't being used by self-pub authors (I suspect the opposite is true and self-publishing has categories that trad doesn't) but more that the categories and the process of sorting works into those categories is part of the traditional publishing process. Marketing is built around those categories and a book is likely to have been both selected for and altered to more precisely signal and fit certain expectations from the agent through to the retailer. The downside is predictability. The upside is predictability.

"Known trust entities" would be major media, Oprah, whatever. Again, it's not a matter of whether I or anyone else agrees with a particular reviewer, it's simply that the customer can navigate by their positions.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

I was considering commenting on this thread, but it seems there have been plenty of good responses here. After reading over everything that was written, I'm left with the impression that you have some sort of secret agenda that your trying to lead us to answering.  As if you want us to have the lights just come on or something, and realize how we were mistaken about some such thing or other.

Now I'm not saying that you do, just that it sure seems to feel like it. Please tell me that it's not. As I would hate to think this is just another one of those clever posts that in reality are just blasting Indy's over traditional publishing like so many other forums seem to have.


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## ASparrow (Oct 12, 2009)

"I'm left faced with a wall of apparently indistinguishably brilliant books that I have to laboriously sample with a depressingly low hit rate."

I agree with you entirely, as a reader. 

When I scan the charts on Smashwords, I find that I stay interested in reading beyond the sample for about one out of every twenty books I check out, even if I'm attracted by the cover and blurb, mainly due to quality concerns. There are many samples, even of some popular books, that I can't get beyond the first few paragraphs due to cliched situations, clunky writing, etc.  I do much better picking books off the rack at a traditional shop (1 in 5-10, maybe?), though I reject them less often for problems with writing mechanics.

I'm just curious what hit rate you encountered in your Smashwords searches. Did you find many (any) that you liked?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Victorine said:


> My suggestion is to find a reviewer or two that you trust. You can even get review blogs sent right to your Kindle. Red Adept was mentioned, but there are more if you find that you don't like some of the books Red really liked.
> 
> If you find a reviewer you trust, you won't have to sample. Just read their reviews and chose from there.
> 
> ...


I agree that a reviewer you trust is a good start. You can also try the Frugal e-reader which has a list of top ten finds each month 
http://www.thefrugalereader.com/2011/02/januarys-ten-most-popular-frugal-finds.html

But there are books in the top #100 bestseller list on Amazon that have lots of 1 star reviews, so you can't go by that either.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I avoid Smashwords honestly. That's really me being lazy I know. I don;t wanat to deal with side-loading a book, or learning how to deal with a new site's interface for finding books.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> 1 - Are they all fly bys (OMG what at great book) or do they make critical analysis.


That is very important! If a reviews are variations on "this was a good book, I really liked it, it was very interesting, I recommend it" I discount it completely. It is not easy to write a good book review and I certainly appreciate readers who make an effort to do so.

I'm an "official" reviewer for CatholicFiction.net]http://catholicfiction.net/]CatholicFiction.net so I get lots of requests from writers to read and review their books. I tell them, "I am going to be honest, so don't ask me unless you really are prepared for what I'm going to say. Sometimes that scares them off....


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"They're different but part of the same customer experience quality issue. My point about categories isn't that I see categories that aren't being used by self-pub authors (I suspect the opposite is true and self-publishing has categories that trad doesn't) but more that the categories and the process of sorting works into those categories is part of the traditional publishing process."_

Those categories arose through traditional publishing. We all use them now since they have become part of our culture. Traditional publishers do sort books into those categories. So can anyone else. Bookstores, libraries, online bookstores, wholesalers, independents, and literature professors all use those categories.

However, Amazon, which is not a traditional publisher, has taken the categories a step further than traditiional publishers by allowing sorting on permutations of categories never identified by traditional publishers. This categorization is facilitated by Amazon, and executed by a user entering search parameters. We are already beyond the categories into which traditional publishers sorted books. This enhanced sorting grew out of tarditional publishing, but is no longer dependent on it. This is an example of a new method and tactic. We will see more.

When a user does execute a search he designs, the solution set contains both traditionally published books and independent books. Now a variety of behaviors will be employed in selection from that set. Some users may carefully vet each book for publishing status, and others will ignore it. Some will read reviews, and others will ignore them. Some will read blurbs, and others will ignore them. Some will pay attention to the covers, and others will ignore them.

And some users will say it's too hard and ask for something better. Amazon will oblige by providing a personal page with books it thinks a user will like. This is another new method and tactic, and one not at all dependent on traditional publishing.

How does the independent author use the above? He puts categories and tags on his books and they emerge in user sort selection sets provided by the retailer's systems.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

JenniferBecton said:


> I really rely on sampling. Heavily.


This is the simplest way ~ go the samplist way.
They are free and they are short and I have sampled a great many books from Indies, but have only read a few. I have so little time to read, I can tell right away if I'm going to enjoy a book or not by sampling.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> I've struggled with your question a lot. Over the past year I've read (or I should say started) quite a few indie books and, out of all of them, only three have proven to be what I would consider well-done. Most of them were just dreadful. BUT (and this is important) lots of readers don't seem to care about the quality of the writing if the story gives them what they are looking for (and that varies).
> 
> My approach has been to post samples of my writing (accessible through my blog) and hope that people will like my style and choose to read my books but one can never tell.
> 
> I wish there were some sort of standards guide for evaluating books but currently there isn't. People can get their friends to write 5-star reviews for them regardless of what their book is like. This is an evolving process and we have a long way to go.


I think genre readers don't care as much about the quality of the prose as they do about the story. They are after story. As long as the quality doesn't fall below a certain level, I believe many of them don't even think about it. But god help you if you write a romance that doesn't have a happily ever after ending.

I'm a bit mystified at why some things sell and some don't. I see some really sharp writing that doesn't sell and some klunky writing that sells great. A lot of readers simply don't mind awkward writing if the story has gripped them.

It's the new age of pulp fiction. Have you ever read any of the old pulps? Lots of dreadful writing in those things. And this was writing that made it through the magazine gatekeepers. Some gems, but more drek than great stuff.

Anyway, I always sample before buying. I can read a few paragraphs and know if the writing is sharp. It's getting steered to the interesting books in the first place that isn't always easy.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

This is an excellent thread.

Muddled - from my perspective - a writer's perspective can I offer these thoughts:
1. Although indies are now a different category then traditional publishers - you have to understand that under that title you have everything from established writers who are now taking their backlist and putting it on Amazon to high school students who have decided their new short story is the best thing since sliced bread.  You really can't lump us all in together in one equal package.
2. I'm one of those authors who have a large percentage of five-star ratings - and most of mine reviewers say things like they laughed or cried through the book, they could relate to the characters, or in many cases, this is the first review they ever wrote.  And I think that's because of my style of writing.  Another writer said that my style is low-key and intimate, like the woman next door telling you the story.  That's not necessarily good or bad - it's a style thing.  I've had a couple of two-star reviewers who obviously didn't agree.   But, authors aren't responsible for their reviewers.  So, I think discounting a book out of hand because of so many positive reviews is not the best way to judge a book.
3. I really think that samples are going to be an important differentiator in the future.  With so many new authors out there - readers are going to have to be wise consumers and sample before they buy.
4. I agree with Vicki that you should search genres and find books that interest you - both indie and traditional - read their samples, read their reviews and then read the books.  It shouldn't be a hard thing to do.  There are wonderful books out there - and there are awful books out there.  Their initial journey to the catalogs of Amazon or Smashwords or wherever should not be your deciding factor.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

@muddled

This industry has mushroomed. The other Indie industries - music and film - are older by 10 years or more. I think Indie publishing is catching up - but music and film have a heck of a head start. 

Before Kindle there were E-Book/E-Publisher awards, reviewers and markets that still exist. However, the Kindle market is just 2 or three years old. 

I don't think that this group of Indie writers has plugged into the older e-publishing support system. I know I haven't and I haven't seen any posts or signature lines that show group affliations. 

You make a good point.


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## StevenSavile (Jun 23, 2010)

There's also the pure mathematics of the Amazon Algorithm to think about - if you put an ebook out at 99c and sell 300-500 through some pretty targeted social marketing erm networking, what you have is 500 people who are counted by the algorithm when it comes to calculating who bought what, increasing your chance of appearing on the same page as some pretty big sellers, and increased visibility will lead to increased sales. It's like a spike, you'll sell more because you are selling more. Does that mean the cream rises? Not necessarily because you have to get people reading your stuff in the first place and that step from zero sales to 50+ a day is a huge one that takes some thinking about, some business savvy if you like, rather than just hoping the good words will out.


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## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree there are some books in the top 100 that have received bad reviews so I don't really know how much attention you should pay to reviews.

Sampling a book will tell you if you like an authors writing style or not, it's the only way I chose the next book I read.


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## K.C. Neal (Jan 5, 2011)

muddled said:


> If you look on Smashwords' highest rated lists you'll see books that have 25+ five star reviews and not a single dissenting voice. On Amazon it's not quite so whitewashed, but there are still pages upon pages of overall five star rated books.


I chuckled a bit when I read this. I don't buy from Smashwords, but I've purchased several indie novels on Amazon, and I have to be honest: I've definitely been burned by putting too much stock in what I later realized were inflated reviews. As a reader, it's annoying because I don't feel I can rely on reviews as an indicator of what I'll get. I'm starting to resort to other methods of figuring out whether to purchase the book, one of which is ignoring 4 and 5 star reviews. As a hopeful author (I plan on self-publishing at least two novels this year), I'm a little stumped. I don't want inflated reviews of my work. I want honest ones. But if my reviews aren't inflated, does that mean I won't be able to compete? This issue really does bother me as both a reader and a writer, but I have no idea what the solution is. I imagine consumers who used to rely on reviews to help them choose will shift their purchasing habits in some way to compensate.


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## jessicamorse (Jan 31, 2011)

melcom said:


> Sampling a book will tell you if you like an authors writing style or not, it's the only way I chose the next book I read.


This is how I've always selected books. Whether it means reading the first chapter in a book store or sampling from Amazon. Is it that uncommon?


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

KateNeal said:


> I chuckled a bit when I read this. I don't buy from Smashwords, but I've purchased several indie novels on Amazon, and I have to be honest: I've definitely been burned by putting too much stock in what I later realized were inflated reviews. As a reader, it's annoying because I don't feel I can rely on reviews as an indicator of what I'll get. I'm starting to resort to other methods of figuring out whether to purchase the book, one of which is ignoring 4 and 5 star reviews. As a hopeful author (I plan on self-publishing at least two novels this year), I'm a little stumped. I don't want inflated reviews of my work. I want honest ones. But if my reviews aren't inflated, does that mean I won't be able to compete? This issue really does bother me as both a reader and a writer, but I have no idea what the solution is. I imagine consumers who used to rely on reviews to help them choose will shift their purchasing habits in some way to compensate.


As a writer - unless you get all of your friends and family to review your books - you have no control over the reviews. I've seen some writers write their own reviews (highly frowned upon) - but other than that - I don't understand what you mean by inflated reviews. If you see a couple of five star reviews and the rest are two and three star - then, you might assume those reviews are from friends, but if the majority are four and five, why would you ignore them?


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

KateNeal said:


> I chuckled a bit when I read this. I don't buy from Smashwords, but I've purchased several indie novels on Amazon, and I have to be honest: I've definitely been burned by putting too much stock in what I later realized were inflated reviews. As a reader, it's annoying because I don't feel I can rely on reviews as an indicator of what I'll get. I'm starting to resort to other methods of figuring out whether to purchase the book, one of which is ignoring 4 and 5 star reviews. *As a hopeful author (I plan on self-publishing at least two novels this year), I'm a little stumped. I don't want inflated reviews of my work. I want honest ones. But if my reviews aren't inflated, does that mean I won't be able to compete?* This issue really does bother me as both a reader and a writer, but I have no idea what the solution is. I imagine consumers who used to rely on reviews to help them choose will shift their purchasing habits in some way to compensate.


Kate, the solution to this is easy. Write a good book. Join a critique group and make that book the best you can. Then *don't* ask your friends to review it. When it's available for purchase, start sending it out to review websites. Get impartial reviews. Those are the best kind for you as the author and for your future readers.

If you wrote a good book, you'll probably get some five star reviews that just say "What a great book!" Nothing can be done about that. But if you actively send out to book reviewers, you'll also get thoughtful and insightful reviews.

Vicki


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

jessicamorse said:


> This is how I've always selected books. Whether it means reading the first chapter in a book store or sampling from Amazon. Is it that uncommon?


I think this is the best way to select a book - like thumping a melon. This way, you understand what you're buying and you're not disappointed.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

@ Muddled - How many indie books have you read?  What was your favorite?

Have you thought about writing reviews yourself, to help others find the good indie books?

Vicki


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## tbrookside (Nov 4, 2009)

Personally, I think that there are many more false 1 star reviews than 5 star reviews.

I can't see myself ever leaving a 1 star review again. Honestly, it's practically impossible for me to buy and read a book that I won't give at least four stars.

I know when I read the back of a paperback [or the product description in Amazon] whether or not I'm going to like the book. I buy the ones I think I'll like and I don't buy the ones I don't think I'll like. That narrows the possible range of ratings to 4 to 5 right off the bat.


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## K.C. Neal (Jan 5, 2011)

terrireid said:


> As a writer - unless you get all of your friends and family to review your books - you have no control over the reviews. I've seen some writers write their own reviews (highly frowned upon) - but other than that - I don't understand what you mean by inflated reviews. If you see a couple of five star reviews and the rest are two and three star - then, you might assume those reviews are from friends, but if the majority are four and five, why would you ignore them?


It's not *just *the number of stars, but also the general quality of what's said. By inflated reviews, I mean bunch of very glowing but very vague 5-star reviews that sound like they came from family/friends.



Victorine said:


> Join a critique group and make that book the best you can. Then *don't* ask your friends to review it. When it's available for purchase, start sending it out to review websites. Get impartial reviews. Those are the best kind for you as the author and for your future readers.


Vicki, thanks for making this point, I think this is really important. I'm thankful to have friends and family in my life for the encouragement they provide, but I don't think it's realistic to expect them to be impartial about what I produce.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

tbrookside said:


> I can't see myself ever leaving a 1 star review again. Honestly, it's practically impossible for me to buy and read a book that I won't give at least four stars.


I agree with you. If a book is bad enough for a 1 or 2 star review I won't keep reading. I've gotten burned a few times.

Also, I review indie books on my blog Parlez-Moi Blog so people often send me books hoping I'll read and review but if I can't get past the first chapter, I won't finish it let alone write about it.

I reviewed two excellent indie books recently: Confessions and January Moon - I hope people will give them a try. They deserve it. I didn't know either of the authors before I wrote the reviews but they have since emailed me and been very nice and appreciative.


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## davidhburton (Mar 11, 2010)

I haven't seen anyone mention Goodreads (unless I missed it). What I find is that readers there are much more conservative in their ratings and the reviews are often brutally honest, more so than at Amazon, etc. All kinds of books are read/reviewed/shared over there, both indie and traditional. You can join groups that share your reading interests, discuss books and authors, vote on which books to read in a given month, etc. 

I highly recommend the site.


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

You can look at Red Adept’s Reviews but our reviewers are currently “just people” not tied to a magazine/newspaper and that is inherently unreliable.  Times are changing – New York Review of Books is apparently going to start reviewing indies but they are doing it for money.  NYRB sees this as field that their readership is going to be interested in and so they will start reviewing these books… if their readership isn’t interested they will stop.  If you want some sort of reliable reviewing process for indie books it isn’t going to come from the indies, it will come from a reviewer who is paid through subscription fees.  Think about this logically, would I pay dues to an organization that said my book was terrible?  So then to keep receiving my dues the organization would have to say my book was great… now how would that help you?

I buy Consumer Reports because if I purchase a washing machine I want to know what I am doing but I pay for that service since I am the one getting the benefit.  If you want the benefit of an unbiased review system then you are going to have to pay for it.  Indie books are typically half the price of a standard paperback, you should still come out ahead even with a subscription fee.

The comment about being able to pick something off the shelf at B&N and getting something far more readable than a random indie work is true, we have no gatekeepers and don’t want any.  The larger publishers have a sort of “machine” that chews up a manuscript and spits out something that confirms very nicely to a specific genre\market\quality bar.  If that’s what you like then that is what you should buy, indie work isn’t for everyone and that’s okay.  Expecting us to come-up-with/pay-for a system that vets/rejects us is just not a realistic expectation, we have no individual incentive to do so unless we are receiving great reviews all the time…


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

CIBond said:


> . . . we have no gatekeepers and don't want any.


well said and

*BRAVO*

Edward C. Patterson
"We don't need no stinkin' badges."
--- Eli Wallach
_The Treasure of the Sierra Madre_


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

davidhburton said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention Goodreads (unless I missed it). What I find is that readers there are much more conservative in their ratings and the reviews are often brutally honest, more so than at Amazon, etc. All kinds of books are read/reviewed/shared over there, both indie and traditional. You can join groups that share your reading interests, discuss books and authors, vote on which books to read in a given month, etc.
> 
> I highly recommend the site.


I agree with David. The reviews on Goodreads are much more blunt and people seem more inclined to leave a rating whether they're indifferent about a book, recommend it or dislike it - and they will state why.

Ultimately, it's about finding a writing style that clicks for you personally and a story you can connect with. Although I may glance over reviews, they almost never influence my decision about buying. My choice is made based on the synopsis, subject matter and a sample. I end up sifting through a LOT of books before trying one out. But the hunt is a fun part of the process.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

davidhburton said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention Goodreads (unless I missed it). What I find is that readers there are much more conservative in their ratings and the reviews are often brutally honest, more so than at Amazon, etc. All kinds of books are read/reviewed/shared over there, both indie and traditional. You can join groups that share your reading interests, discuss books and authors, vote on which books to read in a given month, etc.
> 
> I highly recommend the site.


I also agree with David - Goodreads is a great site. Thanks, David.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

davidhburton said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention Goodreads (unless I missed it). What I find is that readers there are much more conservative in their ratings and the reviews are often brutally honest, more so than at Amazon, etc. All kinds of books are read/reviewed/shared over there, both indie and traditional. You can join groups that share your reading interests, discuss books and authors, vote on which books to read in a given month, etc.
> 
> I highly recommend the site.


I, as a writer, had a pretty negative experience with GoodReads. They have a program whereby an author offers free books in exchange for reviews. The theory is good but what I found was that people requested the books whether or not they were interested in the subject and then gave low reviews because it "wasn't the kind of book I'm used to". I had one reader give one of my books a 2-star review because "it wasn't a very good mystery" -- it wasn't a mystery!!!

I think it might be a good site to get opinions on books you are thinking about buying but if you are an author stay away from that book giveaway program!


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## Julie Christensen (Oct 13, 2010)

Victorine said:


> If I were looking for a book, and not specifically looking for an indie book, I would do a genre search on Amazon. I would first look at title/cover and price before choosing what to click on and read the blurb.
> 
> I don't think the problem is finding good books. The problem is not having enough time to read them all!


I agree with this, and will add that traditional and indie books are mixed together in these lists. My book is ahead of Nora Ephron's right now, in humor. I will also add that I read reviews of books from the public before I buy - a professional reviewer is good, but regular people are who buy the most books, and their unthought out system of review still has value. They speak from the heart. My book is a good example. It has a lot of five star reviews from people who identified with the protagonist and just loved her. To them, that makes it a five star book. It has a lot of one star reviews who absolutely hated the protagonist. To them, that makes a book worth only one star. Readers who read the reviews will get an idea of what my character is like, and I think it's fair to say that people who probably wouldn't have liked my book will choose not to read it after they read those reviews. So, I'd say that the sytem works, much of the time.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

davidhburton said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention Goodreads (unless I missed it). What I find is that readers there are much more conservative in their ratings and the reviews are often brutally honest, more so than at Amazon, etc. All kinds of books are read/reviewed/shared over there, both indie and traditional. You can join groups that share your reading interests, discuss books and authors, vote on which books to read in a given month, etc.
> 
> I highly recommend the site.


Oh yeah, they're brutal over there. I'm not sure what the reason (accountability, maybe, in that everyone easily sees your reviews and you can have many users even track for new reviews/ratings?) but they're very much lower and far more picky. I've had some savage my books there (savage I say!). And a lot of the people who go through the effort to "fake" reviews on Amazon don't/can't do the same over at Goodreads, which helps out a lot.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

I will read a couple of Indie ebooks from authors who I've been impressed with on these boards.  I don't know what their numbers are, but the way they relate to others here, what they say about their own work, what they write about, what genre, etc... these factors will help me decide.  I would say this, however.  IF a book gets up into the four digit area and stays there, then it must be pretty good.  But, then again, that depends on your taste.  There are a lot of young people online these days, and their taste tends to be in the paranormal, vampire area.  So, not being interested in that, I would not read that.  But I do intend to support my local Indie, being as I'm one of them.  As soon as I get my next book uploaded...


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't think the venture from book reviewer Ficbot's been mentioned yet. She's started a site called The Indie eBook Hall of Fame, and there's a good representation of KindleBoards authors there.  One of the requirements is that a book must have "received a positive recommendation from at least three independent bloggers".

Link: http://sites.google.com/site/indiehof/

Reviews in magazine/newspaper columns, blogs, forums, or radio programmes are one of my main resources for finding new books to read - or rather for considering new books. I'll then check out the description, glance at the reviews on Amazon/wherever, and read a sample. That applies to traditional and indie equally for me.

As one of those people with quite a few four- and five-star reviews on Smashwords and B&N, I feel the need to say that not one of said reviews is from anyone I know in real life. Sometimes it really is just that people like the books.


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## Will Write for Gruel (Oct 16, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> I agree with you. If a book is bad enough for a 1 or 2 star review I won't keep reading. I've gotten burned a few times.
> 
> Also, I review indie books on my blog Parlez-Moi Blog so people often send me books hoping I'll read and review but if I can't get past the first chapter, I won't finish it let alone write about it.
> 
> I reviewed two excellent indie books recently: Confessions and January Moon - I hope people will give them a try. They deserve it. I didn't know either of the authors before I wrote the reviews but they have since emailed me and been very nice and appreciative.


If a book is that bad, why not review it? That's what reviews are for, the readers. We appreciate being warned.

When someone puts their work out for public consumption, and especially if they ask for money for said work, there is no reason to refrain from a frank review. If you take the I can't say something nice so I'll say nothing at all reasoning, you're doing a disservice to readers.


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## davidhburton (Mar 11, 2010)

Shayne Parkinson said:


> I don't think the venture from book reviewer Ficbot's been mentioned yet. She's started a site called The Indie eBook Hall of Fame, and there's a good representation of KindleBoards authors there.  One of the requirements is that a book must have "received a positive recommendation from at least three independent bloggers".
> 
> Link: http://sites.google.com/site/indiehof/


She's truly wonderful!!!


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Shayne Parkinson said:


> As one of those people with quite a few four- and five-star reviews on Smashwords and B&N, I feel the need to say that not one of said reviews is from anyone I know in real life. Sometimes it really is just that people like the books.


I'd like to respond by saying that I've seen your books on Smashwords and did flick through a few pages. They're not my sort of thing, but the writing didn't put them in the basket of "there's no way these reviews are real" by any stretch. I'd still have to hold them up as examples of how the review systems appear to skew top-heavy though even if all the reviews are from honest fans.

In the end I would have thought that those with good and honest reviews should be more concerned about this than not as those reviews are devalued by the fake or simply oversold reviews. Instead of seeing a book with thirty or so five-star reviews and thinking that I need to check it out because it must be fantastic, I'm either just shrugging or, worse, I'm actively put off. Sure, it's guilt by association, but that's how many judgements about where consumers choose to spend their time and money take place.

Oh, and it's not about "gatekeepers", so I'm not sure why that's being waved in my direction. I'm not saying anything about blocking entrants to the market. My point is about the other side of the opening of the market, which requires the availability of good information to the buyer to enable choice.


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## David Derrico (Nov 18, 2009)

muddled said:


> Even if I am committed enough to spend several hours poking around forums, following sigs, tracking blogs and creating a personal list of trusted reviewers*, I seriously doubt that the great mass of consumers is even slightly interested in doing the same. It seems to me that the indie author world needs to take a hard look at what they need to do to ease the path for the customer. Whether that means coming up with ways to rescue the review system from its current state, the creation of awards, elevation and promotion of trusted reviewers or banding together to form publishing collectives that provide some sort of quality filter, I don't know.


I agree with you, in that the Amazon review system (to be fair, ALL anonymous user review systems) are flawed, sometimes heavily so. There are lots of fake reviews, inaccurate reviews, retaliatory reviews, reviews by interested parties (pro or con), and a whole bunch of reviews by people who don't share your tastes. This is true of indie and traditionally-published books, and even of other goods, restaurants, etc. as well. So, you either trust reviews and sometimes get burned, or spend more time on the front end sampling and choosing books, and will probably end up with a higher hit rate.

As for what indie authors can do, I think the problem is bigger than us. We can't change the Amazon review system. If anyone can, it's Amazon's _customers_, not its authors (and certainly not us indie authors, most of us aren't even a blip on their radar screen).

In general, I think there's a great need for trusted reviewers out there -- of books, blogs, articles, goods, services, etc. The best thing about the Internet (and now publishing) is that anyone can share whatever they want with the world. The worst thing about the Internet (and now publishing) &#8230; is that anyone can share whatever they want with the world. There's a lot of crap to wade through out there, and whoever figures out a very popular way to curate articles, websites, books, etc. for Internet users will probably make a killing. Of course, there are plenty of review sites out there, some of which focus on indies (Red Adept springs to mind). Now you just have to find which review site you trust out of the millions of such sites out there &#8230; maybe there are reviews of review sites &#8230;&#8230;


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Another approach is to remember, and I can only speak for myself - I have written my book for you, the reader, and not for the review. If I get a review, that's fine - its gravy, but if I don;t get a reader, I'm at odds with my purpose. So sample me and see if I am your date for the week. I mean unless you want to go on a blind date.  

Edward C. Patterson


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> I'd like to respond by saying that I've seen your books on Smashwords and did flick through a few pages. They're not my sort of thing, but the writing didn't put them in the basket of "there's no way these reviews are real" by any stretch. I'd still have to hold them up as examples of how the review systems appear to skew top-heavy though even if all the reviews are from honest fans.
> 
> In the end I would have thought that those with good and honest reviews should be more concerned about this than not as those reviews are devalued by the fake or simply oversold reviews. Instead of seeing a book with thirty or so five-star reviews and thinking that I need to check it out because it must be fantastic, I'm either just shrugging or, worse, I'm actively put off. Sure, it's guilt by association, but that's how many judgements about where consumers choose to spend their time and money take place.
> 
> Oh, and it's not about "gatekeepers", so I'm not sure why that's being waved in my direction. I'm not saying anything about blocking entrants to the market. My point is about the other side of the opening of the market, which requires the availability of good information to the buyer to enable choice.


Well, it does concern me when I see another indie with obvious fake reviews. I click the "Abuse" button and let Amazon look into it to see if it's a fake review, be it a fake 1 star or a fake 5 star. But other than that, there's nothing more I can do.

All I can do is try my best to get legitimate reviews by submitting to trusted reviewers.

I'm not sure what else you want from us. We can only do our best to keep our own reviews as legitimate as we can. I can advice other indies, but I can't make them not ask for reviews from their friends.

Ultimately, you'll have to do what you just did for Shayne. Flip through the first few pages and see if the style and story is something you would like to read.

Vicki


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I'm not sure what else you want from us.


Again, I'm not here because I "want" or "expect" anything from you other than to hear your views on a topic that is interesting to me and which I thought would be of interest to a group of independently publishing writers. There's no need for the defensive stance. Despite what some people seem to believe, I'm not some "big publishing" infiltrator looking to beat up on indie writers.

What you say about reporting reviews is interesting. The link drops through to a page stating that the report is for "inappropriate content". I would assume this to mean offensive material or commercial spam. Does it allow you to state that you're reporting due to suspicion that a review is not legitimate? Have you successfully used this option?


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Asher MacDonald said:


> If a book is that bad, why not review it? That's what reviews are for, the readers. We appreciate being warned.
> 
> When someone puts their work out for public consumption, and especially if they ask for money for said work, there is no reason to refrain from a frank review. If you take the I can't say something nice so I'll say nothing at all reasoning, you're doing a disservice to readers.


Your point is well-taken, Asher, and if I weren't a writer I'd do that but I had a couple of terrible experiences a few years ago that put me off doing extremely critical reviews. I was sent a book to review that was virtually unreadable in my opinion. I wrote a review detailing its flaws and literally within hours my book on Amazon started getting spammed with terrible, 1-star reviews --- strangely enough by the very same reviewers who had given his book glowing 5-star reviews. It was easy to conclude that he immediately got his friends to help him out. It kept up for weeks on every book site on the internet.

Luckily I was able to have most of them removed but it taught me a lesson.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> Again, I'm not here because I "want" or "expect" anything from you other than to hear your views on a topic that is interesting to me and which I thought would be of interest to a group of independently publishing writers. There's no need for the defensive stance. Despite what some people seem to believe, I'm not some "big publishing" infiltrator looking to beat up on indie writers.
> 
> What you say about reporting reviews is interesting. The link drops through to a page stating that the report is for "inappropriate content". I would assume this to mean offensive material or commercial spam. Does it allow you to state that you're reporting due to suspicion that a review is not legitimate? Have you successfully used this option?


It does not give an option to state why you're reporting the review. I've only clicked to report a few of them. I do know of a specific instance where an author created a fake account and gave themselves a five star review that was taken down. I won't name any names, but I assume Amazon can tell the IP address of an account.

And I'm sorry if I seem defensive. In your original post you seemed like you really wanted to know how to find good indie books, and several people replied with great answers, but that doesn't seem to be what you're after.

I was wondering if you have read any good indie books, but you've not answered that either. Just wondering what's up.

Vicki


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

muddled said:


> I'd like to respond by saying that I've seen your books on Smashwords and did flick through a few pages. They're not my sort of thing, but the writing didn't put them in the basket of "there's no way these reviews are real" by any stretch. I'd still have to hold them up as examples of how the review systems appear to skew top-heavy though even if all the reviews are from honest fans.


I find this baffling, the reviews are top-heavy because people are top-heavy and not overly critical. Have you read Twilight? Those reviews are going to have NOTHING to do with how much YOU like the series - unless you are a 14 year old girl. So to say X review is fake or not reliable because in your opinion the book is or isn't good enough&#8230; seriously? People read crap all the time and love it. I love my crap which will be different from your crap - if we switch crap we will wonder if the other person was doing drugs when they wrote their 5-star review. It is the nature of this event. Don't waste your effort on determining if reviews are fake or not&#8230; until someone has at least 50 it isn't a good sampling - after that you can start picking through the lower end ones to see if it is a book you will like.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I have been trying to review more of the books I read. Now, most of my reviews are 3-star+, not because I don't think there are indie books/trad pubbed books that deserve less, I am just pretty careful about what I purchase, and don't get ones to start with that I think are bad. I have been reviewing books on Amazon for 10 years if you look at the first ones I reviewed.. but I'll be totally honest and say it had been years between those first reviews and the ones in the past year.

I also post my reviews on Amazon under my real name, just like here, BTackitt, and all of mine are verified purchases.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

Perhaps the problem - if that's a fair word - is that most people are motivated by extremes.  I think the average person - and certainly the first time reviewer - will review a book because they either loved it or hated it.  So, if you write a good book - that some people will love and some people will merely enjoy, but few will hate - you will get a sampling of reviews on the higher end.  I've sold over 17,000 books - I believe I have about 70 or so reviews. (Amazon reviews) That's less than one percent. 

I think you are much better off reading a sample and deciding for yourself.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

modwitch said:


> Red Adept is our Oprah . Right now, the known trust entities won't touch indie books, so we need to grow our own reviewers.


Wow! Can you reword this so I can put it on a t-shirt or mug? I never thought I could be compared to Oprah!  

Red Adept: The Oprah of the Indie World

Although, I have to admit, that next sentence makes me feel like a farm crop. Perhaps I can be a field of carrots? (Carrot-top---get it?)   

Seriously, I want to thank all who mentioned my blog here. It makes me feel good to know that I am helping great books get noticed!


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## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

Interesting topic. Thanks for raising it, Muddled. 

I suspect that the synthesis of the internet and the book community (readers, writers, reviewers, etc) will evolve past infancy until it generates a more effective sifting mechanism. Whatever it is, it won't be perfect due to the fact that humans will be involved. However, the current array of sifting (Amazon reviews, blog reviews, sampling, etc) isn't foolproof, as it can be gamed reasonably effectively if one has the energy and time, and it also is cumbersome in terms of the time it takes to parse through. In fact, it's far from foolproof.

Sampling, which I use quite a lot to investigate books, isn't always effective. I've read several samples that have impressed me with clean writing and focused plot, only to discover, after I've bought the book and proceeded a hundred pages or so in, that the author is incapable of sustaining the story and consequently crash lands the ending of the book into a flaming mess of unresolved plot lines.

I wonder if a site similar to Rotten Tomatoes would work for books? I realize that there's a certain similarity between RT and Goodreads, but I find I can't trust Goodreads all that much due to the fact that the majority of people reviewing books on there aren't all that serious about their reviews. While I'm certain many of them sincerely enjoy the books they're recommending, their reviews, I suspect, are colored by quite a few other things than whether or not the book in question is legitimately good (ducking for cover here, as I realize I'm drawing dangerous attention to the concept of "good"). If someone created an RT style site for books that only aggregated carefully vetted book review sites, that might ratchet up reliability quite a few notches. Imagine that, fifty or so different Red Adepts aggregated onto a single site, covering dozens of new books every week.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

CIBond said:


> Have you read Twilight? Those reviews are going to have NOTHING to do with how much YOU like the series - unless you are a 14 year old girl. So to say X review is fake or not reliable because in your opinion the book is or isn't good enough&#8230; seriously?


No, not seriously, as that's precisely the opposite of what the section you quoted says. It says that I read the pages and _didn't_ find anything that made me believe the reviews were fake _despite_ not being the target market for the books.

What I am saying is that perfect marks across the board mean that it's impossible to use them as information whether they are honest or not. I'm not sure why people are finding it so difficult to see that or so easy to decide that I'm either unreasonable for thinking there's a problem or making some sort of attack. I've looked at the top twenty or so reviewed kindle books in genres I like, all with five stars, and have managed to find two self-published examples that didn't leap out as below expectations within the first few pages.

Sure, there's some wiggle room for my personal tastes or just being picky, but that's the reality of the customer experience I'm having. It's frustrating and it's actually making me more picky as I go and the end game would be for me to do what indie writers must surely not want customers to do, which is to actively avoid books that show signs of being independently published.


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

muddled said:


> No, not seriously, as that's precisely the opposite of what the section you quoted says. It says that I read the pages and _didn't_ find anything that made me believe the reviews were fake _despite_ not being the target market for the books.


What I am saying is take fake/real off the table. It doesn't matter - a 14 year old girl isn't going to represent your tastes any more than the author's mom saying: "buy my son's book so that he will move out of my basement."

Take a book that has lots of reviews and a solid 4ish star average and read some of the 3 and 2 star reviews - 5-star reviews don't give enough critical info. so ignore them unless you know the reviewer. Now, do you think you would still like the book? Try a sample then decide if you want to buy it or not.


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

muddled said:


> I'd like to respond by saying that I've seen your books on Smashwords and did flick through a few pages. They're not my sort of thing, but the writing didn't put them in the basket of "there's no way these reviews are real" by any stretch.


Thanks for that. 



> In the end I would have thought that those with good and honest reviews should be more concerned about this than not as those reviews are devalued by the fake or simply oversold reviews.


I take your point about the potential devaluation of reviews. Fake ones do carry a risk of being found out, or at least being openly scoffed at (e.g when the same spelling/grammatical errors found in the book turn up in the review). "Oversold" gets into the realm of personal taste and reviewing style, I think. I might pile on the superlatives when talking about Jane Austen, when a million other people will say, "meh". The opposite might happen with "Twilight" (disclosure: I've never actually read "Twilight"; I chose it as an example of a hugely popular work that generates a wide range of opinions).

Feel free to call me naive, but I suppose I'm inclined to assume that, with the exception of retaliatory or related-party reviews, people who say they really liked/disliked a book (and I'm not just talking about my own) really did like/dislike it. When it comes to deciding whether or not _I_ might enjoy said book, obviously it's more useful to me if they say what the particularly liked or didn't like. But that doesn't necessarily make a brief review any less sincere.

A more in-depth reaction, and the ability to see the reviewer's tastes, are part of what makes a blogger's review specially helpful.

My 1-cent's worth (our currency isn't worth much).


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

> It seems to me that the indie author world needs to take a hard look at what they need to do to ease the path for the customer. Whether that means coming up with ways to rescue the review system from its current state, the creation of awards, elevation and promotion of trusted reviewers or banding together to form publishing collectives that provide some sort of quality filter, I don't know.


These are interesting ideas for discussion, Muddled, and interesting discussion has resulted!

"Promotion of trusted reviewers" certainly does seem to be happening - just look at how often RedAdept has been mentioned in this thread. Ficbot's "Hall of Fame" is another move in a similar direction.

Awards: I've a feeling these would have more credibility if they were independent of the Indies.  Perhaps a collective of bloggers could establish some.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

CIBond said:


> What I am saying is take fake/real off the table. It doesn't matter - a 14 year old girl isn't going to represent your tastes any more than the author's mom saying: "buy my son's book so that he will move out of my basement."


I don't see why we should take "fake/real" off the table when it is part of the issue. When readers see a book hitting the top twenty in a genre they know well with amazing reviews but with clearly sub-par writing they get suspicious. When they dig into those reviews and see that they nearly all come from reviewers with one or two reviews, or users with swathes of self-pub reviews all getting five stars, they know that they aren't suffering from some mix-up where they're just clashing tastes with a bunch of young girls.

You see reviews hitting in batches. You see the same terms and comparisons repeated. You see geographical clustering. Ultimately, you see writing that is some distance from what you consider as publishable quality. There's no proof that they are actually dishonest, of course, but we don't go to court to decide what to believe in these instances. Mud sticks and it also splatters. If I spend a frustrating hour sifting through clunkers that are raised up by the review system as the best on offer and my horse-manure detector wailing then I'm bound to look suspiciously at the next book I see that looks like it might be more of the same.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> No, not seriously, as that's precisely the opposite of what the section you quoted says. It says that I read the pages and _didn't_ find anything that made me believe the reviews were fake _despite_ not being the target market for the books.
> 
> What I am saying is that perfect marks across the board mean that it's impossible to use them as information whether they are honest or not. I'm not sure why people are finding it so difficult to see that or so easy to decide that I'm either unreasonable for thinking there's a problem or making some sort of attack. I've looked at the top twenty or so reviewed kindle books in genres I like, all with five stars, and have managed to find two self-published examples that didn't leap out as below expectations within the first few pages.
> 
> Sure, there's some wiggle room for my personal tastes or just being picky, but that's the reality of the customer experience I'm having. It's frustrating and it's actually making me more picky as I go and the end game would be for me to do what indie writers must surely not want customers to do, which is to actively avoid books that show signs of being independently published.


I'm sorry you're having trouble finding good indie books by looking at reviews. But aside from the obvious sock puppet or fake review, I don't see where there's a problem. For instance, I just got a one star review today. They said my writing was poor. The review I got before that was a 5 star review saying it was a pretty good read. Which one is right? Is my book a five star book or a one star book?

Well, *they're both right.* It's their opinion. One person thought my writing was poor, and one thought it was a pretty good book. So, by going from my reviews alone, you'll totally be confused and not know if it's a good book or a poorly written one.

So what to do about it? Well, you can sample the book to see if you like it. Or you can go on to the next book that maybe doesn't have any one star reviews. Oh, wait, isn't that what your problem is? Too many books with only five star reviews?

Well, looks like there is no solution then. You just can't go by what others say about a book because you'll always have a different opinion. So you're left with either sampling to find a good one, or sticking with NYT bestsellers, because as you state you're much more likely to find a book you like in traditional publishing. Which is totally fine, that's your choice.

Vicki


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## davidhburton (Mar 11, 2010)

This is where I like sites like Goodreads.com. You start to find others with similar tastes in books and watch what they read and recommend.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" It's frustrating and it's actually making me more picky as I go and the end game would be for me to do what indie writers must surely not want customers to do, which is to actively avoid books that show signs of being independently published."_

Sure. That will happen with a subset of consumers, and any independent has to accept that. A profit maximizing author will recognze there are all kinds of different consumer behaviors, tastes, and preferences. Then, because he is an independent, he will market his book to target audiences. When we look back on it, we will talk about what independents did as if they moved as a coordinated unit. But we will just be recognizing the aggregate of independent actions.


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

muddled said:


> I don't see why we should take "fake/real" off the table when it is part of the issue. When readers see a book hitting the top twenty in a genre they know well with amazing reviews but with clearly sub-par writing they get suspicious. When they dig into those reviews and see that they nearly all come from reviewers with one or two reviews, or users with swathes of self-pub reviews all getting five stars, they know that they aren't suffering from some mix-up where they're just clashing tastes with a bunch of young girls.
> 
> You see reviews hitting in batches. You see the same terms and comparisons repeated. You see geographical clustering. Ultimately, you see writing that is some distance from what you consider as publishable quality. There's no proof that they are actually dishonest, of course, but we don't go to court to decide what to believe in these instances.


So what you are saying is that you see a book with 50 reviews and you think that all of them are faked? Even the 2/3 star reviews?


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

CIBond said:


> So what you are saying is that you see a book with 50 reviews and you think that all of them are faked? Even the 2/3 star reviews?


No.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" When readers see a book hitting the top twenty in a genre they know well with amazing reviews but with clearly sub-par writing they get suspicious. When they dig into those reviews and see that they nearly all come from reviewers with one or two reviews, or users with swathes of self-pub reviews all getting five stars, they know that they aren't suffering from some mix-up where they're just clashing tastes with a bunch of young girls."_

That is all available to readers who devote the resources. But since we don't know how many even read reviews, it becomes a plausible problem of undefined scope. It's very difficult to determine the marginal value of addressing a problem with undefined scope. Can someone tell us what percentage of all Amazon book customers read the Amazon Reader Reviews? Of that percentage, how many dig into those reviews to see pedigree of the reviewer?


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

There's obviously little chance that anyone on these boards has access to data that will satisfy a need for absolute proof of the precise dollar value of any incremental improvement to the information in reviews. Considering this, asking for specific info on customer habits as a bar for plausibility is just another way of saying "I don't think this is a problem". If that's your position then that's fine, obviously, but the negative proposition suffers from exactly the same lack of evidence as the positive.

If you're happy to consider broader evidence then Amazon's own behaviour provides reason to believe that the reviews are used by a significant number of customers. Amazon maintains their functionality, gives them screen space, uses the star rating in most, if not all, listings, has specific programmes for rewarding and promoting reviewers and enables customers to use review scores as a method of sorting products. Bearing this in mind it seems reasonable that Amazon tracks a few clicks on reviews from time to time.


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## Andre Jute (Dec 18, 2010)

muddled said:


> I think the point I'm trying to make is that, as a reader, I find it hard to see that many people could justify the effort of checking sample after sample. The danger that I see is that rather than becoming more open to self-published writing, they will be forced to look for ways to filter them out (I believe there have been some calls for such filters already).


I read a 100 indie samples selected largely at random. The report is on my blog; the key article is http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/434 Essentially I found 21 readable writers in 100 indies. YMMV -- depending on your taste and standards, you may find fewer or more. The 21 include 6 refugees from traditional publishing if you want to exclude them to be left with 15 indies, but I don't see why you want to make the distinction. A writer is a writer is a writer, regardless of his means of publication.

12 of the 21 would be filtered out by traditional publishing, IMO. You may see discovering them as a bonus that justifies downloading and opening eight samples to find one writer new to you that is readable, perhaps desirable, that you cannot find on a traditional bookseller's shelf. I also found one writer who in my opinion doesn't write well but has a following in a niche market clearly not well served by traditional publishing whose habitues may consider giving eight minutes or 80 to finding an author in which they will invest hours and days well worth it.



muddled said:


> Just to nip a potential argument in the bud. This isn't a question of whether traditional publishing guarantees quality or whether self-publishing cannot deliver quality. It's clear that neither of those statements are true. What is true is that traditional publishing offers a set of filters and signposts that consumers can use to greatly increase their chances of finding a book that they are happy with. I really don't think it can be argued that you have a much better chance of getting a book you'll like if you pick one blindfold off the shelf at a bookshop as opposed to randomly pulling one from a set of self-published works on Amazon.


Your conclusion doesn't follow from your facts. If the filters are relevant, and sales generally prove that they are, chances of getting a book that will appeal to a good number of readers are greater in the bookshop (given only that the shelves are infinitely long...) than among the indies. On the other hand, if you belong to some minority taste (and some of these newly discovered "minorities" could prove to be bigger than any mainstream category...), your chances are better among the indies.

It comes down to an evaluation of the value you put on a novelty factor v. some amount of your time to read samples. Two thirds of samples you will with a little practice be able to discard on reading two sentences. I show a sample in the articles on my blog referenced above in which in a paragraph and a couple of lines I determined that a writer (who turned out to be published by a perfectly respectable traditional publisher) was not for me.

Reviews on Amazon can be written by anyone who ever bought anything from Amazon; it needn't be a book. Personally, I think a review from a reader, a person just like you and me, is gold.

I have no axe to grind; I have five shelf-feet of first editions traditionally published and the signs are good that ebooks will be as good to me as traditional publishing has been. Anyway, the six weeks I've been in Kindle publishing (I've been in electronic publishing since computers used glowing thermionic tubes, valves for the British) have been entertaining.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_" There's obviously little chance that anyone on these boards has access to data that will satisfy a need for absolute proof of the precise dollar value of any incremental improvement to the information in reviews. Considering this, asking for specific info on customer habits as a bar for plausibility is just another way of saying "I don't think this is a problem". If that's your position then that's fine, obviously, but the negative proposition suffers from exactly the same lack of evidence as the positive.

If you're happy to consider broader evidence then Amazon's own behaviour provides reason to believe that the reviews are used by a significant number of customers. Amazon maintains their functionality, gives them screen space, uses the star rating in most, if not all, listings, has specific programmes for rewarding and promoting reviewers and enables customers to use review scores as a method of sorting products. Bearing this in mind it seems reasonable that Amazon tracks a few clicks on reviews from time to time._

1. Absolute proof is not the standard. Any indication will be a contribution.

2. Asking about customer habits is a rational response to a plausible speculation about customer behavior. Currently we don't seem to have any idea about the scope of review reading behavior.

3. I have made neither positive nor negative propositions. I have asked about data. That's a first step in developing any rational approach to a plauisible speculation.

4. Amazon does indeed maintain the review function and it feeds both the written reviews and the aggregate star score. The star score icon is seen by 100% of people who look at any title since it is displayed with the title every place the title is displayed. It can also be used as a sort and selection parameter. That is very good data. My questions are about the people who actually read the reviews since that's what the speculation considered.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> My questions are about the people who actually read the reviews since that's what the speculation considered.


They're on screen, so they're readable and considered worth putting on valuable space by Amazon. I read them. If you look at the reviews you will also see that they contain threaded comments, so other people clearly read them. You'll even find reviews expressing doubt about the validity of other reviews, so it would seem that there are people who not only read them, but see the same problems as I do. Further, it would seem reasonable to believe that the number posting that opinion is only some small fraction of those who hold the opinion.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"They're on screen, so they're readable and considered worth putting on valuable space by Amazon. I read them. If you look at the reviews you will also see that they contain threaded comments, so other people clearly read them. You'll even find reviews expressing doubt about the validity of other reviews, so it would seem that there are people who not only read them, but see the same problems as I do. Further, it would seem reasonable to believe that the number posting that opinion is only some small fraction of those who hold the opinion."_

I agree.


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## Karly Kirkpatrick (Dec 13, 2010)

I agree...reviews are tough to wade through and samples turn me off sometimes too. As an author, I'm trying to combat the gatekeeper syndrome by creating my own epubbing label with fellow authors. We like to think that we write quality books and are tough critics in order to make sure each of our books is up to par. While the label is new, eventually we hope that if a person reads one book from one of our group of authors, we hope that they will feel confident if they read a book by another author at the label they will receive a quality written and edited book. We're not being gatekeepers, but we will build a reputation for quality.

I have no proof this will actually make a difference though, as we've just started out, but some major authors are banding together to epub books as well, so this may be a new trend that we'll see more of.

If anyone is interested...you can check it out at DarkSide Publishing (www.darksidepublishing.com)

Happy reading!


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I generally don't pay a lot of attention to reviews. I go more by what people I know and respect think. There's a lot of stuff out there that is popular that I don't care for at all. Who liked it tells me more about whether I will like it than will the fact that a bunch of random people liked it.


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

muddled said:


> I don't see why we should take "fake/real" off the table when it is part of the issue.


It is part of the issue wherever you look. Reviews, fake or real, give no indication of the worth of a book unless you trust the reviewer. Don't believe me? Then look at the reviews posted on books that you see in the store. Do you see any negative reviews? Of course not. Those 'reviews' or snippets of reviews are printed with the sole purpose of trying to get you to buy the book. I have, in front of me at this very moment, Terry Pratchett's GUARDS! GUARDS! upon which is the blurb: "Hilarious, with moments of genuine poignance and grandeur . . . a comic Master!" --Locus

Based on GUARDS! GUARDS! I have never picked up another book by Terry Pratchett. I'm not sure why this book is still in my house. So, real review/fake review, it doesn't matter. How about awards, then? Let's look at "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon.

Here's what wikipedia has to say about it:

'The novel has been praised for its innovation and complexity, though the acclaim has been criticized by some. In 1974, the three-member Pulitzer Prize jury on fiction supported Gravity's Rainbow for the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. However, the other eleven members of the board overturned this decision. The novel was nominated for the 1973 Nebula Award for Best Novel and won the National Book Award in 1974. Since its publication, Gravity's Rainbow has spawned an enormous amount of literary criticism and commentary, including two readers' guides and several online concordances, and it is frequently cited as Pynchon's magnum opus.[4]

TIME included the novel in its "All-Time 100 Greatest Novels," a list of the best English-language novels from 1923 to 2005.[5] In addition, it has appeared on several other "Greatest" lists, and is considered by some critics as one of the greatest American novels ever written.[6]'

It took me 6 months to finish that book, where a book of similar length that interested me would have taken 1-3 days. The only reason I did finish it was because it was given to me by someone who wanted to discuss it with me. I'd read a chapter, put it down in disgust and pick up something I liked. A week or so later, I'd give it another shot and do the same. In my opinion, it stank.

And there you have the most important three words: IN MY OPINION. And that's all reviews are: opinions. Unless you find someone of a like opinion you'll find reviews useless for the purpose of deciding on a book. [Not entirely correct. A friend of mine says that she'll entertain any movie that a certain critic pans. If he hates it, she knows she'll probably like it. As long as you know the reviewer and know where his opinion stands with respect to your own and trust it to be consistent, it can be of use.]

I've gone to bookstores, picked up a dozen or more books (in my genre) and perused them. Many times I've walked out without buying anything. Those books didn't pass the only review that counted: mine. If I want to look at a self-published indie book on kindle, I download the sample. I trust myself in this regard, no one else.

The reviews traditionally published books get from traditional critics mean little to me. The reviews on Amazon mean little to me. The vetting that traditional books get have allowed horrendous (in my opinion) books to be published. And, if you have a successful author, it doesn't matter how bad they get, they'll still be published. I loved Alistair McLean's early works. His later ones deteriorated to the point where I stopped buying his new books. They didn't pass muster (in my opinion). There is no vetting of self-published books. That lack allows horrendous books to be published. And, I am sure that some who look at mine will be of that very opinion.

Are they wrong? No. Because it is their opinion and thus it is valid. Others will (and have) looked at my books and given them 5 stars. Are they wrong? No. That is their opinion and thus those reviews are valid.

My opinion (and thus valid) is that if you buy a book based solely on the reviews of others (especially when you can download a sample or open the book and read the first several pages), you are being foolish. It's all a matter of taste and a matter of opinion. In that, you are the only person who counts and there can never be any sort of review/vetting process which will work for everyone.

So, real review/fake review/cherry picked snippet of review . . . it doesn't matter.


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## terrireid (Aug 19, 2010)

D.A. Boulter said:


> It is part of the issue wherever you look. Reviews, fake or real, give no indication of the worth of a book unless you trust the reviewer. Don't believe me? Then look at the reviews posted on books that you see in the store. Do you see any negative reviews? Of course not. Those 'reviews' or snippets of reviews are printed with the sole purpose of trying to get you to buy the book. I have, in front of me at this very moment, Terry Pratchett's GUARDS! GUARDS! upon which is the blurb: "Hilarious, with moments of genuine poignance and grandeur . . . a comic Master!" --Locus
> 
> Based on GUARDS! GUARDS! I have never picked up another book by Terry Pratchett. I'm not sure why this book is still in my house. So, real review/fake review, it doesn't matter. How about awards, then? Let's look at "Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Very well said!!! And very true!!!


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## Kate Hamilton (Jan 28, 2011)

Hi,

Great is a definition of many things. One of the more important would be - does this book fulfill my particular need at this moment in my life?

There are few great books in the traditional publishing channels. And a deal that are drivel. But sometimes drivel fills someones bill.

Dip in, as you presumably do when you browse in a bookshop.

And trust your instinct. Amazon reviews are personal opinions after all. Trust yours.
Cheers,
Kate.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Boulter makes a great point. Anyone seriously concerned about fake reviews and how they mislead the reader might pick up any paper book, turn it over or flip through the first few pages, and read the praise. It is the tradition of traditional publishing.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

_Gung-xi Fa-tsai _ - the Year of the Rabbit. 

fake review in Mandarin is _jia de shu ping_

I just read a fake review. _Wo yi ben jia de shu ping kan la._ 

Edward C. Patterson


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

muddled said:


> I think the point I'm trying to make is that, as a reader, I find it hard to see that many people could justify the effort of checking sample after sample. The danger that I see is that rather than becoming more open to self-published writing, they will be forced to look for ways to filter them out (I believe there have been some calls for such filters already). I'm wondering whether, as authors in this environment, you feel concerned about the situation or have considered possibilities for the "indies" to try to resolve it. For example, in independent games development, there are efforts to promote the best of what's on offer through organisations and events such as the IGF awards.


The problem is that one person's great read is another person's dreck. Who's going to decide what to filter out? If the reviews can't be trusted, readers need another way to find good books. I think that eventually readers will have to wise up and sample everything before they buy, no matter who the publisher is, if they want to avoid bad books, because ultimately, only they can decide for themselves what's good or bad.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

Am I the only person who read this as "a question of dentistry" and looked in out of interest?


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Boulter makes a great point.


Like the previous lengthy post talking about customer responsibility, its a point that is not being argued. Yes, reviews are opinions. Yes, any individual person can find that they disagree with a review or set of reviews, just as any individual could find that they dislike the traditional publishing world's view of "publishable". These points are both true and not oppositional to the idea that the existing mechanism, particularly the state of the customer reviews, are a problem to the bulk of customers being able to navigate the market of indie books with reasonable ease.

If anything, the examples given just provide support for the issues I've raised by way of contrast. Take the given example of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Excellent major media reviews, but also reviews that provided clear indication that it was not for everyone:

NYT: "Gravity's Rainbow is longer, darker and more difficult than his first two books; in fact it is the longest, most difficult and most ambitious novel to appear here since Nabokov's "Ada" four years ago"

Time: "It is a funny, disturbing, exhausting and massive novel, mind-fogging in its range and permutations"

Now look at the Amazon reviews. It has four stars overall but of 325 reviews, 47 give one star, 19 two, 29 three and 40 give four. There are people glorifying it and people describing it as utterly unreadable. This is not an example of comparable failure. It's an example of exactly the kind of balanced customer feedback and market guidance that I'm not finding for many indie titles.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

muddled said:


> Now look at the Amazon reviews. It has four stars overall but of 325 reviews, 47 give one star, 19 two, 29 three and 40 give four. There are people glorifying it and people describing it as utterly unreadable. This is not an example of comparable failure. It's an example of exactly the kind of balanced customer feedback and market guidance that I'm not finding for many indie titles.


If my books had 325 reviews, I'll bet it would have a much wider range of opinions expressed. Indie books don't usually have a HUGE readership like that.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I think you should approach readers with your question and not authors. You're barking up the wrong tree. We know the issues, You're preaching to the choir. And guess what, we're singing the same old song back as we have in a hundred other threads. We are becoming "threadbare," because if ou gave a thousand years we'd never be able to asnwer your question to your satisfaction. We are only giving you practice with your post writing skills. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Daphne said:


> Am I the only person who read this as "a question of dentistry" and looked in out of interest?


  Love it!


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

kcmay said:


> If my books had 325 reviews, I'll bet it would have a much wider range of opinions expressed. Indie books don't usually have a HUGE readership like that.


The ratio is 19:4:3:2:5. 325 reviews aren't necessary to see some balance.

Edward: actually some people have answered the question to my satisfaction. They've either said "I see the problem, but I'm not doing anything" or "I don't see the problem" or "I see the problem and here are some things going on to address it". The posting I'm doing otherwise is to people who despite being in the choir, as you put it, are making tangential arguments that miss the point.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> The ratio is 19:4:3:2:5. 325 reviews aren't necessary to see some balance.
> 
> Edward: actually some people have answered the question to my satisfaction. They've either said "I see the problem, but I'm not doing anything" or "I don't see the problem" or "I see the problem and here are some things going on to address it". The posting I'm doing otherwise is to people who despite being in the choir, as you put it, are making tangential arguments that miss the point.


But you see, if you look at best selling indies, you'll see more of what you usually see with best selling trad published books. Why? Because more people are buying and reviewing. You DO need a larger audience to get a more balanced reviewing. Sure, 325 isn't necessary, but with 50 or 100 reviews you're going to see a much more balanced ratio, similar to the ratio of 19:4:3:2:5.

Of the indies you're looking at, which ones have more than 19 reviews? If the ratio is 19:4:3:2:5 than you're going to at least need 20 reviews to see a less than 5 star review.

Look at Amanda Hocking's reviews. Heck, look at mine. The ratio is still leaning toward good reviews, but it is more balanced out because we've sold a lot of books and have a lot more reviews than the average indie.

Vicki


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Victorine said:


> But you see, if you look at best selling indies, you'll see more of what you usually see with best selling trad published books. Why? Because more people are buying and reviewing. You DO need a larger audience to get a more balanced reviewing. Sure, 325 isn't necessary, but with 50 or 100 reviews you're going to see a much more balanced ratio, similar to the ratio of 19:4:3:2:5.


Sigh... I'm talking about the books that bob up to the surface through the reviews. The books that a customer will find when they sort by review.



Victorine said:


> Of the indies you're looking at, which ones have more than 19 reviews? If the ratio is 19:4:3:2:5 than you're going to at least need 20 reviews to see a less than 5 star review.


No, you don't require 20. Those ratios broken into 4-5 star:1-3 star are 23:10, close to 1/3 of the reviews are poor to average. The books I'm seeing have more than 20 though if that's what you want.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm going to respond to the original post. I'm thinking that two or three years hence the reviews of indie novels will be more useful, if not on a par in utility with the reviews of trad-published books. That's because (1) indie books don't have as many reviews and are (2) more likely to be reviewed by fellow indie authors, who tend to be too kind to each other, and/or the friends and relatives of indie authors, who also tend to be too kind. (It's only human nature in most cases and only in a few cases an attempt to game the system.) But two or three years down the pike enough complete strangers will have read any particular indie book that the reviews as a whole will provide a more realistic assessment of who the novel might be for. If two or three years down the road the novel still doesn't have many reviews, then I think that says something important too.

I should modify this to add that if the ebook market grows fast enough it won't take as long, maybe six months, before the reviews as a whole for an indie novel are really trustworthy.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

muddled said:


> Sigh... I'm talking about the books that bob up to the surface through the reviews. The books that a customer will find when they sort by review.
> 
> No, you don't require 20. Those ratios broken into 4-5 star:1-3 star are 23:10, close to 1/3 of the reviews are poor to average. The books I'm seeing have more than 20 though if that's what you want.


Well, then that's easy. Just don't search for indie books by sorting by reviews.

Go through Red Adept's website instead, or search best selling books on Amazon.

I think most readers will find a way to seek the good indies. I mean, there's a lot of indies on these boards selling quite well. I'm sorry you're frustrated by it, but I don't think you're honestly trying to find good indies to buy. There's a bunch of good ones out there if you're trying to find them.

If the *only* way you'll search for indies is to sort by reviews, of course you'll get only the books that have all five star reviews, which won't really be the cream of the crop. Search by best selling instead. And not on Smashwords... go to Amazon.

Vicki


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Sorting by reviews only gets you scores of 4.8 or higher, AFAIK. IMO, probably not the best way to find a new book to read.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

Victorine said:


> Well, then that's easy. Just don't search for indie books by sorting by reviews.


Victorine, with all due respect, you just don't get it. You repeatedly respond to me as if I'm asking for individual advice on how to dig out indie novels when from the OP onwards I've made it clear that I'm talking about the general problem of how customers discover those novels. Customers will rank by review, will look at the top reviewed indie titles and will, just like me, be struck by the gap between the reviews and the broadly accepted standards of published works. If it keeps on happening they will, unfairly or not, decide that indie titles aren't worth the effort.

If you don't want to discuss that. Don't feel it's a problem or isn't solvable or just not relevant to you because you've managed to find a market, okay, but please save the repeated posts telling me what I should do to find a book and the little insinuations that I'm in some way not genuine in my interest.


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## JL Bryan (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't think most people will make broad judgements about "indies" in general like that.  I mean, big Hollywood studios have put out some horrible movies, but it doesn't mean I won't ever watch "big Hollywood movies" ever again.

Readers will judge individual authors, probably with zero regard for which publishing label they're under (if any). No different from traditional publishing.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

_The danger that I see is that rather than becoming more open to self-published writing, they will be forced to look for ways to filter them out (I believe there have been some calls for such filters already). I'm wondering whether, as authors in this environment, you feel concerned about the situation or have considered possibilities for the "indies" to try to resolve it. For example, in independent games development, there are efforts to promote the best of what's on offer through organisations and events such as the IGF awards.
_

Once you start using "filters" (read: "gatekeepers"), you're right back to the traditional publishing business model. You've got people, "committees", whatever, reading a few lines of a book and making a subjective determination to reject it. This goes against everything the Internet stands for.

Check out Boyd Morrison, if you haven't already. He was rejected by every publisher in New York, turned indie, and sold thousands of copies of his Noah's Ark thriller in relatively short order. Then, he got a two-book hardcover deal from New York.

We don't need gatekeepers. That whole arrogant system, and the frustration it produced, is what gave rise to self-pubbed ebooks.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

muddled said:


> Victorine, with all due respect, you just don't get it. You repeatedly respond to me as if I'm asking for individual advice on how to dig out indie novels when from the OP onwards I've made it clear that I'm talking about the general problem of how customers discover those novels. Customers will rank by review, will look at the top reviewed indie titles and will, just like me, be struck by the gap between the reviews and the broadly accepted standards of published works. If it keeps on happening they will, unfairly or not, decide that indie titles aren't worth the effort.
> 
> If you don't want to discuss that. Don't feel it's a problem or isn't solvable or just not relevant to you because you've managed to find a market, okay, but please save the repeated posts telling me what I should do to find a book and the little insinuations that I'm in some way not genuine in my interest.


I think you're being extremely rude to Vicki. She's been telling you ways that customers can get around exactly the problem that you've laid out.

In your OP you said, "To put it in self-publishing terms -- how do I, as a reader, find these new authors to read?"

In her last post, she told you, "Search best selling books on Amazon." Or follow Red Adept, etc. It really is that simple. People looking to buy books aren't going to Smashwords and sorting their searches by review score, so that is _not_ a significant problem. The way people search for books on Amazon is by typing in search terms or by searching within certain categories (or at listmania lists, or by following Amazon recommendations). From those results, you can at least find books that are selling well, which is a fairly decent indicator of quality-- certainly a better one than random selection.

From there, you shop for a book just as you would in a bookstore full of traditionally published books. You look at the title and cover, you read the description, you look for endorsements or awards, and you try a page or two. If the book wasn't already recommended by a trusted person, then buy at your own risk (after sampling, if you're cautious). Just like traditionally published books.

If you're saying that fake reviews are a problem (that seemed to be your main point in the OP), then I agree. They're a problem with traditionally-published books, too, but I agree that they are a bigger problem with indie books in general. So any intelligent person will realize after getting burned once that they can't rely on just reader reviews to guarantee that they have found a good book. They'll find methods like trusted reviewers, reading samples, GoodReads reviews, LibraryThing reviews, awards, word of mouth, etc.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

muddled said:


> Customers will rank by review, will look at the top reviewed indie titles and will, just like me, be struck by the gap between the reviews and the broadly accepted standards of published works.


To be clear, this is not how customers typically search for books at Amazon. You can filter a search on Amazon to give you books that are "4-stars and Up," but that's almost a useless filter because so many books on Amazon are 4-stars and up (I know I've never even thought about using that filter on Amazon).

Amazon ranks according to sales (with a heavy emphasis on recent sales) if you are searching within a genre category. This is one way among many other ways to get around the problem of how to find good indie books. Of course, that a book is selling doesn't guarantee that a book is good (for you), but it's one almost effortless filter that book buyers can use to search for books. And if a book is selling well, then there's a good chance it will have many reviews with a spectrum of low to high reviews that you can consider.

EDIT: I was partly mistaken. There is a decent filter for searching by 'top-rated' books. See my next post.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Customers have lots of different behaviors. There is no reason to apply any single behavior to all customers.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

So, if I'm understanding the OP correctly, he wants some sort of UL style tag of approval for good books so he can easily see that they're good books without having to bother with reading reviews or sorting through heaping mounds of other books.

In the old days the easy way to do this was to see if a book had been published.  Like any guild the publisher required their apprentices to go through a grueling process to craft a masterpiece.  Then the guild picked it apart, made the apprentice re do it, (multiple times probably) and finally, when it met their standards it was declared good enough, and set forth for purchase.  

Well, the whole point of being an INDIE is that you skip the guild initiation and standards and produce your masterpiece your own way.  Lots of "masterpieces" will be crap.  But my idea of crap and your idea of crap and the publisher's idea of crap may be at odds from one another.  (See recent discussions on Twilight, the DaVinci Code, and the Lovely Bones.)  If we had wanted to be part of the guild system and done things their way, we would have been published traditionally.

These days there is one "reliable" stamp of approval that will allow you to skip most of the dreck.  Go to Amazon, find your favorite genre, and go after the top 100 sellers.  While you may not like everything there, a whole lot of other people did.  When it comes down to it, people laying out money for a product is the most reliable indicator of a product that meets the needs of the people buying it.  

(Oh, and there are indie awards.  And I'm sure over time there will be indie guilds, where we'll get together and make our own rules for our own club, and then there'll be re-indies or ana-indies or tru-indies or whatever the next generation that doesn't feel like being part of the club will call themselves.)


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

I played around with Amazon's search options a little more to see if this issue of inflated reviews on indie books is a problem when it comes to searching. Eventually I figured out how to use the "top-rated" filter within Kindle books (it took a while to figure it out).

Here's such a list for Fantasy.

At the time I'm posting this, I see only one indie book in the top 20: Toil and Trouble by H.P. Mallory (#9).

Here are the others in the top 100:

#35 Wintertide by Michael J Sullivan
#39 Elf-Hunter by C.S. Marks
#43 Swarm by B.V. Larson
#44 Dream War by Stephen Prosapio
#49 Fire Burn and Cauldron Bubble by H.P. Mallory
#65 Luthiel's Song by Robert Fanney
#100 Kismet's Kiss by Cate Rowan

So what does that tell us?

Amazon is looking at review scores in this particular list to show us some very good and popular books. Though I haven't read all of these indie books, I'd bet none of them got their great reviews through any significantly dishonest manner. I know that many of these authors and books have great reputations. Or even if perhaps one or two of them did cheat on their reviews (one or two would be the worst case scenario here IMO), that would still only be one or two books out of a hundred, and you can still read the samples first if you're especially concerned about getting a lemon. So when it comes to Amazon at least, I'm not seeing a big problem wrt readers being able to search for good indie books.


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## muddled (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm being rude to Vickie for asking her to stop throwing accusations in my direction and to stop responding to something that I've repeatedly and directly told her I'm not asking about? Or was I being rude for correcting her odd mathematics?

I see we're off again with the "gatekeepers" bit. Once more, giving the customer more reliable information about what they can expect from a work and enabling them to quickly navigate the market is not placing a gatekeeper. I'm not suggesting in any way that access to the market be limited. There's no gate being discussed to be kept.

However, I give up. There's clearly no hope of a conversation about the topic at any useful level here. People are too keen to see attacks or a call for "gatekeepers" or head off into odd illogical sidetracks making obvious statements about the nature of subjective opinion. Thank you to those who didn't read malice into what I wrote and provided a few examples of things that are going on. For the rest of you, next time someone is moaning about how unfair it is that self-publishing has a stigma attached to it, perhaps think of what I've been trying to say here.

Oh, and Kindle Fantasy, sorted by customer rating.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Here's Amazon's explanation on that filter:

*What Amazon Top Rated by Customers Means*

The Amazon Top Rated calculation is based entirely on Amazon Customer Review ratings. In addition to average star ratings, the calculation takes into account an item's total number of reviews and compares it with other items within a category or subcategory. This allows items with strong star ratings across many reviews to outrank items with a better average rating, but only a few reviews. The Top Rated calculation also gives less value to older ratings in favor of more recent ratings to ensure that the Top Rated lists highlight the items that customers currently think are best.

______

So that's interesting. Another thing to keep in mind is that if an author padded his book with a ton of fake reviews, eventually people would discover that book, read that book, and correct the ratings by adding lower ratings to the book. So the way Amazon has this set up corrects for abuse because:

1. It takes the total number of reviews into account. Books with more reviews are weighted higher.
2. It takes more recent reviews into account. This works because if an author wrote a bunch of fake 5-star reviews on a book, or if a bunch of friends and family did so, the more recent reviews will be from those who felt suckered into buying the book based on the high reviews.

All in all, that's a pretty good system, and if you look at the top twenty on that page, I don't think you'll find any stinkers. For SF/F folks, here's Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, and Sci-Fi.

In the top 20 Top-Rated:

_Fantasy_ has H.P. Mallory.
_Epic Fantasy_ has Michael J Sullivan, C.S. Marks, and Robert Marston Fannéy.
_Science Fiction_ has B.V. Larson and Stephen Prosapio.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

muddled said:


> However, I give up. There's clearly no hope of a conversation about the topic at any useful level here. People are too keen to see attacks or a call for "gatekeepers" or head off into odd illogical sidetracks making obvious statements about the nature of subjective opinion. Thank you to those who didn't read malice into what I wrote and provided a few examples of things that are going on. For the rest of you, next time someone is moaning about how unfair it is that self-publishing has a stigma attached to it, perhaps think of what I've been trying to say here.
> 
> [/url].


Again. Then I'll have the last word. Let me see . . .

Efluvia.

That's a good enough last word and evokes a river of sludge.

Edward C. Patterson


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Asher MacDonald said:


> If a book is that bad, why not review it? That's what reviews are for, the readers. We appreciate being warned.
> 
> When someone puts their work out for public consumption, and especially if they ask for money for said work, there is no reason to refrain from a frank review. If you take the I can't say something nice so I'll say nothing at all reasoning, you're doing a disservice to readers.


I'm in the same boat, and generally won't review books I loathe either. Two reasons for this, both purely selfish: I don't want to take the time to finish reading a book I hate. Secondly, I want to make money at this. You are not going to click on my Amazon Affiliates link if I tell you the book is terrible.

Now, if it's a really awful book, I may take the time to write up a quick 'what was wrong with it' review for amazon, but spending the time to write up an 800+ word review is just a waste of my time.


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Again. Then I'll have the last word. Let me see . . .
> 
> Efluvia.
> 
> ...


Oooh... can I have narcissistic? It has more letters.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

CIBond said:


> Oooh... can I have narcissistic? It has more letters.


Efluvia is better - you know that heavy, poo-like sludge that moves slowly under the outhouse. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## D.A. Boulter (Jun 11, 2010)

muddled said:


> Once more, giving the customer more reliable information about what they can expect from a work and enabling them to quickly navigate the market is not placing a gatekeeper.


Here's my try at last word.

You haven't understood anything that has been said. In a nutshell: *There is no system* which will give the customer reliable information about what they can expect from a work and which will enable them to quickly navigate the market. There isn't such a system with traditionally publish books. There isn't such a system with music. There isn't such a system with movies. There won't be such a system with indie books. There never will be such a system, because it is all a matter of taste; it is all subjective -- whether you want to recognize that or not.

Movie making, writing, music making and painting all fall under the category of ART. Art is subjective. You can't escape that.


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## ASparrow (Oct 12, 2009)

muddled said:


> I'm being rude to Vickie for asking her to stop throwing accusations in my direction and to stop responding to something that I've repeatedly and directly told her I'm not asking about? Or was I being rude for correcting her odd mathematics?
> 
> I see we're off again with the "gatekeepers" bit. Once more, giving the customer more reliable information about what they can expect from a work and enabling them to quickly navigate the market is not placing a gatekeeper. I'm not suggesting in any way that access to the market be limited. There's no gate being discussed to be kept.
> 
> ...


Thanks for stopping by and starting this thread. I share your concern and appreciate your perspective. It's not about gatekeeping. It's a marketing problem, really.


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## CIBond (Aug 28, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Efluvia is better - you know that heavy, poo-like sludge that moves slowly under the outhouse.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


They both smell bad but poop knows its poop and people tend to catch on faster. The other can go on and on and...


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

BTackitt said:


> Muddled, I too am a reader not a writer. I can tell you what I do. I read the threads here on KB.. in all of the various sub-forums. I read what the authors write here, see their signature lines, and go from there. In the Book Bazaar there are 2 stickied threads maintained by member Jeff that are lists of the authors. One is separated by Genre. it's a good place to start. The covers in the sig lines are my other source for material. The Book Corner is another good place.. You can ask about books, read recommendations, read reviews, and conversations about books & authors there.


yes. you can do that.

you can also get lost in BTackitt's gifs.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

LKRigel said:


> you can also get lost in BTackitt's gifs.


Every single time.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

@muddled - I think you are talking about 'content sites.' Places on the web where the reader can connect to find quality work - or work of a certain calibre.

The romance, romantica and erotica markets have a number of sites, with reviewers and their own award structure. It is called an EPPIE award.

There is EPIC -

_EPIC, Electronically Published Internet CoalitionTM, was established in 1998 to provide a strong voice for electronic publishing. Once an authors' organization, EPICTM has expanded to include hundreds of professionals from all facets of the electronic publishing industry: authors, publishers, editors, artists, and others. Our members work together in a unique collaboration between authors and publishers to further the industry._

Those are the ones I know of - I'm sure there are others. There is a certain irony in the fact that the most advanced segment of the e-book market is the romance genre.

So


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

muddled said:


> Like the previous lengthy post talking about customer responsibility, its a point that is not being argued. Yes, reviews are opinions. Yes, any individual person can find that they disagree with a review or set of reviews, just as any individual could find that they dislike the traditional publishing world's view of "publishable". These points are both true and not oppositional to the idea that the existing mechanism, particularly the state of the customer reviews, are a problem to the bulk of customers being able to navigate the market of indie books with reasonable ease.
> 
> If anything, the examples given just provide support for the issues I've raised by way of contrast. Take the given example of Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Excellent major media reviews, but also reviews that provided clear indication that it was not for everyone:
> 
> ...


I've just got a horrid one star - if that helps.


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## K. A. Jordan (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm starting to wonder - without a system that awards excellent Indie writing - how does a reader find a high quality book in their favorite genre? Where are the Indie "Pulitzer" awards? E-books hitting that standard should be worth an extra buck each. 

This ties in to pricing because an 'award winning' author can command a higher price. At that point the game changes to a different level. Sales rank is no longer the primary measurement. Therefore monthly sales can be allowed to drop without having it smack of failure. 

Does it make sense to have a "Reviewer's Choice" award? A "Reader's Choice" award - other small ways to award excellence?


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

I'll bet that we'll start seeing more and more of those types of awards popping up. Some will be legit, some will be "pay us money and we'll list your book." Then readers will have to figure out which of _those_ they can trust.

I think readers should be their own judge.

P.S. Ficbot started this list: https://sites.google.com/site/indiehof/ which is a collection of books that book bloggers have reviewed well. I think it's a good start.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I wanna win either a Creamy or a Poopapalooza. If not, I want the Goilden Molar Award for Dentistry.   Pay me and I'll list your wisdom teeth. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

KerylR said:


> I'm in the same boat, and generally won't review books I loathe either. Two reasons for this, both purely selfish: I don't want to take the time to finish reading a book I hate. Secondly, I want to make money at this. You are not going to click on my Amazon Affiliates link if I tell you the book is terrible.
> 
> Now, if it's a really awful book, I may take the time to write up a quick 'what was wrong with it' review for amazon, but spending the time to write up an 800+ word review is just a waste of my time.


I review books that I read.

I don't write reviews to sell books. I write reviews to inform readers.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

RedAdept said:


> I review books that I read.
> 
> I don't write reviews to sell books. I write reviews to inform readers.


Yep, and you write a whole lot more reviews than I do. And you write good, solid, thoughtful reviews. Do you have an Amazon Associates or something similar link going on (if for no other reason than to defray the costs of your site)?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to write a good review for a turd. I want to be a solid, honest reviewer, but my time is finite, and every book I review that I know I won't sell any copies of is money lost. Basically I'm optimizing the ROI on my time.

Writing my own books, reviewing other indie writers, being part of the indie writing community, this is my business. This is the start of my kids' college funds, and paying down the house, and the car, etc...

If this was my hobby I'd write reviews of everything. But my hobbies are knitting and cooking. With them I do whatever catches my fancy.


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## jyarrow (Aug 15, 2010)

I usually look at a mix of editorial and customer reviews when considering a book. The editorial reviews tend to be tougher and aim for objectivity and the customer reviews tend to be more subjective. You might consider visiting Goodreads, since it is not a marketplace and you  may find more reliable information there.

The issue you raise about the "democratizing" of publishing is one that will be around for a long time, especially since publishers are turning down some great authors who a few years ago would never have thought of going the self-publishing route. One of the main reasons that I've decided to stick with the traditional publishing model is that Publishers Weekly, Library Journal and many other journals do not review self-published work and I'm in this for the long term.

Thanks for starting this discussion!

Joyce


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

KerylR said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to write a good review for a turd. I want to be a solid, honest reviewer, but my time is finite, and every book I review that I know I won't sell any copies of is money lost. Basically I'm optimizing the ROI on my time.
> 
> Writing my own books, reviewing other indie writers, being part of the indie writing community, this is my business. This is the start of my kids' college funds, and paying down the house, and the car, etc...


I understand what you are saying. Although it amazes me that you are making that much money from being an Amazon Associate. But, then, a lot of my readers are subscribers, so they don't necessarily click the links on my blog. Most of my blog link clicks are from the ads.

Yes, I am an Amazon Associate, too.

However, I can tell you in all honesty that I get just as many clicks on my one and two star reviews as I do for the four and five star ones. Maybe it's curiousity? That whole "gotta see the train wreck" thing... I don't know

Also, people like to see a wide range of reviews. The fact that I post the good, the bad, and the ugly right along with the great means more readers for my blog.

Most importantly, my lower starred reviews are helpful to readers. If they come across a book that I have given a one star review, it might save them some money, which is money they can spend on another book, hopefully a good one. 

Edited to add: As long as you are doing honest reviews, you are still performing a service for readers. So, I'm not trying to talk you into doing "bad" reviews. You must do what works for you and what you are comfortable with.


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

RedAdept said:


> Most importantly, my lower starred reviews are helpful to readers. If they come across a book that I have given a one star review, it might save them some money, which is money they can spend on another book, hopefully a good one.


Not to mention the fact that it helps readers understand whether a particular reviewer shares their taste in books. We might love a subset of the same books, but if a reviewer hates some books I liked (and vice versa), that gives me more information on which to base my book purchases.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

RedAdept said:


> I understand what you are saying. Although it amazes me that you are making that much money from being an Amazon Associate. But, then, a lot of my readers are subscribers, so they don't necessarily click the links on my blog. Most of my blog link clicks are from the ads.


Sorry, I'm giving the wrong impression there. I'm making pennies on them now. I'm hoping to make more as my name as a reviewer grows.



> However, I can tell you in all honesty that I get just as many clicks on my one and two star reviews as I do for the four and five star ones. Maybe it's curiousity? That whole "gotta see the train wreck" thing... I don't know
> 
> Also, people like to see a wide range of reviews. The fact that I post the good, the bad, and the ugly right along with the great means more readers for my blog.
> 
> ...


How do you make yourself read the bad ones? That's a much bigger function of not reviewing bad ones than the ROI. I suppose it's useful to the reader to see, 'I couldn't get past the free sample of this one,' but I often feel that's not necessarily a fair review. I mean, the book could really perk up two pages from where I quit, and the readers wouldn't know that from my review.


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