# Bookmarq.net Promotional Thread (MERGED)



## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

If you're starting out as an author you need exposure but it's hard to find at an affordable price. The Amazon store is now so packed with books that at the recent London Book Fair all the talk was of the "discoverability" problem - how do people find your books,

Reviews are obviously one way but a Kirkus Review costs $425 and frankly most of them are not very good. As an author myself but with a background in book and music marketing, a few months ago I started to work on ways of dealing with this. Obviously I wanted to promote my books but to do that I needed to provide something that would be useful to other authors too.

The outcome is we have created something which I believe can act as a marketing toolbox for authors to promote their work. It's designed to be affordable - a book page complete with cover shot and description starts at $10 and you will only pay $30 for a short review. Even a full review is affordable at $75.

It's very easy to set up - all you do is complete a form, pay by PayPal and you're good to go.

I hope you try it and I hope you like it. I really hope we can help you sell a lot of books

The web address for the $10 book page promo is at
http://www.bookmarq.net/add-book-page-book-page-plus-review/

Obviously there's a lot more to see on the website as well.

Meantime I hope you like the cartoon (below) from 20px about what it is like to be an author on the internet these days.










_Edited to shrink image. Thanks for understanding. --Betsy_


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

The review is delivered under a creative commons licence which means you can use it anywhere.

The site has been online for less than a month but the returns for Amazon sales for June show we sold 643 books. As the $10 fee is not a monthly charge but is a perpetual listing I think it represents good value.

The importance of the page is not just the page itself but that it also gives you gateway access to our award-winning iRabbit Reader Multiplication system which is detailed here:
http://www.bookmarq.net/marketing-packages-overview/

iRabbit is proven in the music and gaming industries and we're currently implementing it for two major publishers under white label branding.

We're book marketing professionals. I appreciate your interest and any more questions that you may have.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

No we sold 643 books across all titles. But the site only went online at the beginning of the month.

We are charging $10. For that you get a page with a cover on it, a summary, a synopsis, a short author bio and a link which takes you to the sales page on Amazon. If you want a review - around 200 words you pay $30 and that includes the listing. If you want a full review you pay $75.

I review books for several UK nationals so I know what a quality review looks like. We recruit our reviewers by giving them a website free. We hand-pick the best of them to be what we call "selected reviewers". At the moment we can cover each genre (fiction) or subject (non-fiction) with at least two selected reviewers.

An example page is here:
http://www.bookmarq.net/public-schools-and-the-great-war-the-generation-lost-by-anthony-seldon-and-david-walsh-2/

White label means they are using the same system to promote their own titles but under their own brand but with our marketing system under the hood.

The problem with Kirkus reviews is (a) the cost and (b) the quality. They simply do not shape up to a proper newspaper review. Most of the front end of the review is in describing the plot which should not be the purpose of a review.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

Erm, question - why is your Facebook page set up as a person that you have to friend, rather than as a "thing" that you like?


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

That's a good question. It should link to the bookmarq.net, the bookmarq.net fan site on facebook. If you tell me where you clicked to "Like" that might save us hours of time in finding where to correct it?


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## MarkOetjens (Jan 10, 2014)

The title of this thread is "$10 book marketing PLAN" So where's the plan? It looks to me like you're charging a monthly fee. Sorry, no thanks!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

PaigeDoyle said:


> That's a good question. It should link to the bookmarq.net, the bookmarq.net fan site on facebook. If you tell me where you clicked to "Like" that might save us hours of time in finding where to correct it?


The Facebook social media in your right sidebar, it links to: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008274963796


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## 71202 (Jul 17, 2013)

IMHO, I never throw money at something without seeing a plausible way it could go into profit.  I am not seeing it here.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm not paying for reviews, don't care how little they cost and how much better than Kirkus they're supposed to be.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

PaigeDoyle said:


> The problem with Kirkus reviews is (a) the cost and (b) the quality. They simply do not shape up to a proper newspaper review. Most of the front end of the review is in describing the plot which should not be the purpose of a review.


The main problem with Kirkus reviews is the same one with this system: you're paying someone for a review. Doesn't matter how good that review is, it's still a review that the author paid for, which raises ethical questions. I'm no marketing expert, but this set-up seems very sketchy to me.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

Pleased to now you Rin and thanks for the information.

Straying into Kboards has been a little like walking on to a film set. Rin is the Judy Garland figure in the calico dress. Everyone else is antagonistic. But let's see what we can get from the few moments of our lives that each of us have given to this thread. I promise to be honest even if that means taking no prisoners.

I would be interested in knowing if I have it right. Remember I'm not judging who you are but how you come across. Interested to know your thoughts.

*DTW* 'minds me of every tagger along that you saw in any 1950s B&W western, the idiot running along behind with the noose. Always gets shot, usually by mistake, usually alongside a mule.

*1001nightspress?*A gal you might meet late at night in a bar in a city you didn't know too well. She's wondering whether to call it a day or go on somewhere. Has legs, real legs.

Good covers on your sig and you seem to be learning as you go on.

I've only just looked at the website which seems to suggest you are running a marketing house for authors.

If that's the case the $10 promo was never really designed for you.

What you have already is good but we can make it much better. We work with niche publishers and we know how to sell books. If you want us to work with us send me an email ([email protected]). I'm the guy in the corner with the cheap suit and dirty shoes (not).

If *Veinglory* is Emily Veinglory you're the sassy girl reporter, lippy but bright, intelligent. I should probably marry you.

Seriously you find some news stories I had not seen. You should be exploring ways you can work with us not ticking us off. Online we're two weeks old but we're going places. I need a section editor for Erotic Romance. Send me an email and let's talk.

On *Sheila_Guthrie* I get a librarian, slightly proper? Whereas *Perry Constantine* is an Atticus Finch figure (nothing wrong with that).

Let me explain how it works. I have around 120 reviewers at the moment, all of them competent, 35 of them outstanding. They review books for free all the time. The bulk of them even buy the books they review. But the books they review for free are of their choosing. Inevitably they largely choose books by known authors and if you want them to review a book by someone they likely never heard of, then you have to buy their time.

Trade publishers know this. If they can get reviewed for free in a newspaper they will take the option but if they cannot they will put it on NetGalley which they pay for.

All our reviews and reviewers are proudly independent and we don't plug bad books which aren't worth our readers' time.

In detail, for *Sheila_Guthrie,* the two story collections look interesting. Good illustrations on the covers. I would have liked them to look more like a series so the first sold the second. But what do I know? Blog is OK if you like french beans. It's a charity book (but I would probably put that smaller in your promo). Ask us nicely and we will probably review it for free.

The single page is a one time payment for a listing *MarkOetjens*. It gateways you into other areas which you can use to plan a proper marketing strategy which is never a single event. These don't cost any more money but they require a little work on your part to implement them. What the $10 page does is chip away a little more at "the discoverability problem" and means I can begin take an interest in you and your books.

I make a living by selling books. I don't make a living by taking money off authors at $10 a time.

Let me tell you what I now of you right now. You've been ill - sorry to hear that - and you wrote a book some time in 2010 which you self pubbed under an imprint called Conquer. I don't imagine it sold well. You're currently writing short stories - an area so notoriously difficult to market that if an agent had xray eyes he wouldn't open the letter before he dropped it in the bin. You have a website using the default WordPress theme which you publish to quite often but it doesn't line up. How many readers do you get on it a day? 2? 3? I have to tell you, whatever it is, it's spam-bots looking for a way in. If you want me to take an interest in you, you pay me $10. If you don't, then fine I will go away.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

Steady on there, mate. 

There are far too many sharks looking for ways to fleece unsuspecting indie authors that a wee bit of cynicism should be expected. Yours may well develop into a fine service that we will all clamor to use, but while you're still in the setup phase, you should expect a few barbs from a scam-weary community.

Good luck with it, btw. It looks like quite an interesting and potentially useful website.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi Herc,

Thanks for that. I hope the response to the doubters was OK. I write and also sell books and I know all about the shark infested waters

Publishing is in a transition stage at the moment but if independent publishing is to work it needs to adopt the values that traditional publishers have developed and perfected over the last 200 years... and then add a bit.

We know and can deliver on the values that traditional publishers have developed and perfected over the last 200 years.

What our marketing teams are continuously looking for and developing is the ability to add a bit.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Reviews with no eyeballs don't mean anything.  I had to leave the house for my most recent ARC giveaway, and I had 23 people sign up in the 4 hours I was gone instead of the 10 I'd wanted, and those reviews will be read by hundreds of people.

Why do I care about reviews I need to pay for, "high quality" or not?  Where are your eyeballs?

And why on earth do you assume that we all care what "trade" (trad, actually--short for traditional) editors or publishers do or think?  i can assure you that there are many of us with no interest in a trad deal that might realistically be offered to us.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

> And why on earth do you assume that we all care what "trade" (trad, actually--short for traditional) editors or publishers do or think? i can assure you that there are many of us with no interest in a trad deal that might realistically be offered to us.


"Trade publishers" is an established term and they currently account for 94.6% by sales value of the world's published books (online and digital) market. Usage of "Traditional Publishers" (or "trad" as you have it) is largely confined to the Independent Publishers sector. If you don't think the independent sector has anything to learn from Trade Publishing's 200+ year experience of selling books you are delusional.

No one is asking you to buy a review but as you probably know getting volunteer reviews is not easy.

Our eyeballs come from the promotions we run. We have the best book promotional system - bar none - in iRabbit. It's proven in the music and gaming industry and it works not by gathering "friends" but though generating trackable leads that result in proven sales.

You can start to learn about it at:
http://www.bookmarq.net/marketing-packages-overview/

Then come back and try and pick holes.

But please don't bother if you already know everything.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ok, folks....

Ann is probably asleep, Harvey's traveling and I just got to a hotel with WiFi.  Locking the thread while I review.

EDIT: OK, I've read through the thread as it stands, removed one post.

PaigeDoyle, our members might not mind your snarky analysis of those who posted asking the tough questions that should be expected by anyone asking people to fork over hard-earned money, but I do.  I expect a little more patience and civility and a little less snark from someone asking people to buy a service from an unknown entity.

Folks, I'm going to reopen the thread, but I expect civility on all sides.  Tough questions are appropriate, but they can be asked civilly.  I know.

Betsy
KBoards Moderator


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

You can judge a person by how they treat those who can do nothing for them. That's all I'll say about the earlier name-calling.

I think the question people are asking or at least I am is what will the reviewer bring? Reviews are most valued when they come from big names, especially people the potential reader has heard of. Kirkus can charge so much because readers know they are tough and fair, so a good review from them carries a lot of weight. Reviews from famous authors like Stephen King also can sway readers. But the reviews from a company readers will know only exists for authors to pay to provide reviews, that will bring more of a backlash. Reviews from someone the reader has never heard of, I can get that for free by sending out advanced review copies to people. If you have famous authors or reviewers who've worked for other magazines or websites whose names readers would recognize, that would help.

Also, what am I supposed to do with this review I've paid for? Will you have a central website that regularly posts these reviews for readers to browse? Or do you just give authors the reviews to post on their blog or in their book description? If it's the latter, it will make the review even more suspect, since readers can't verify the source.


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## dmac (Jun 23, 2014)

A website that will provide me exposure would not take more than 5 seconds to load on a fast cable internet connection. Kboards, for example, takes less than one.


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## Joseph Turkot (Nov 9, 2012)

> "Trade publishers" is an established term and they currently account for 94.6% by sales value of the world's published books (online and digital) market.


Have you seen authorearnings.com?


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## chris56 (Jun 8, 2013)

I don't find any value in paying for a review.  To me, the reviews that have true value are the ones that are posted by people on the sales pages of the book.  Those are the reviews that get the most attention because they're right there in front of prospective buyers.  I just can't see people hunting down a website that has only one review of a book.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

In terms of the reviews Nigel we put bookmarq.net up with a lot of services which are designed to be free and the current focus is admittedly on authors. But I'm not really interested in selling services to authors. I'm interested in selling books to the public on behalf of authors.

Currently this is a UK based small business but the three of us who work here are book marketing professionals who can bring expertise to the indie sector that I don't think has ever been offered before and while we don't expect anyone to be grateful we didn't quite expect the hostility - although following Betsy's intervention we can begin to understand the reasons.

iRabbit in particular is a unique book marketing system which is already proven in music marketing - which has many similar characteristics to the business you're all in. We think it can work for authors too.

Yes I have read authorearnings.com Joseph and it's an interesting document. There is also a typo in my statement - it should read (digital and print) market. The source is Nielsen so I think it is likely to be correct. What I am saying is trad/trade whatever you want to call them have been around for a long time and they will continue to be so because they get some things - particularly marketing - right. We work with them and they usually know what they are doing.

That's why particularly on top selling authors the traffic is over to them rather than in it is trade pubbed authors coming over to indie. Most of it's about distribution of printed books but depending on the house they can be pretty good at marketing them. I look at a lot of indie author sites and while some are good -- and most of you are better than most we see -- the average indie author site is appalling. And I don't know any where the author puts any effort into gathering sales data. They just poke them through to Amazon. How many of you have the gold-dust knowledge of who actually bought your books. My guess is none of you. Amazon has it.

The problem with this building process is the chicken and egg. We need the authors to develop the volume of pages that the public will want to see and read.

So at the moment, Nigel, we're in phase two where we're beginning to split the site down into genres and subjects. For me to achieve that I need book page content across genres in volume.

Everything currently sits on bookmarq.net. There are around 900 pages. The plan is to break that down so there are a series of mini-sites each with its own front page so dystopian.bookmarq.net - scifi.bookmarq.net etc etc each on the basis of content and with its own front page, news sections, new this month and pages. I cannot do that on my own. We need the support of the author community.

Bookmarq.net really is a network. It uses a unique multiuser version of WordPress which as been designed bottom-up for writers who want to sell books. Hence we currently host just short of 200 author sites which appear externally like standard WordPress but actually live on our system.

How that works is detailed here: http://www.bookmarq.net/why-bm-blog/

The advantage with that arrangement is we can bring content they add on their own site and run it on the section pages where it should get a great deal more exposure than if it ran just on their own site.

I've tried to put together something which is specifically designed to benefit authors. I now need author support to make it work and that's what I'm really looking for, rather than $10.

In return we're set up to offer free professional advice through "Writer Support" and a directory of services where writers can independently rate the quality of the service they received and post requests on the reviews exchange. All these are available entirely free of charge just through registering.

Not sure where you are DMAC but I get a fast load even when I load in into global monitoring services accessing from a number of locations. Was at 82/100 on the Google scale this morning. That's not bad for a site that runs images (which KBoards does not).

Best wishes


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

I agree with you Chris56 but we're dividing the site into genres each with its own front page and sub-sections. Note this:


> Everything currently sits on bookmarq.net. There are around 900 pages. The plan is to break that down so there are a series of mini-sites each with its own front page so dystopian.bookmarq.net - scifi.bookmarq.net etc etc each on the basis of content and with its own front page, news sections, new this month and pages. I cannot do that on my own. We need the support of the author community.


I think there is a place for a book site which offers editorial at the quality one might find in a books section of a national newspaper but which treats the independent sector on equal terms as it does trade/trad publishing.

I think most people will agree we have the presentation largely right -- if not necessarily the sales pitch to authors. If anyone can help me with that by offering constructive suggestions and/or practical input it will be very welcome. Why not get involved and make it work how you want it to?


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## Jacqueline_Sweet (Jan 10, 2014)

Writers were pilloried for buying reviews from Fiverr (for $5, no less) because it's unethical to purchase a review.

How is your service any different?

For that matter, couldn't I get more reviews if I just took the $30 or $70 and ran a contest of my own, with the cash as a prize for one lucky reviewer? 

Nothing you are offering appears to have any value.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi Jacqueline, 

It's pretty common for publishers to commission reviews, particularly for new titles. What was happening on Fiverr was that people were paying for a 5* review. 

With us as with Kirkus, Foreword and some others you won't get a favourable review just because you pay for it. You will get an honest and well written critique which sums up the book. It's just that Kirkus will charge you a lot more money for it and it will take a lot longer to do. And it won't be of the same quality as ours will when you get it.

It's perfectly possible for you to run a prize competition for a review but the problem again comes down to the quality you will get. I have 120 reviewers on the books who review books routinely. Out of those we are currently using the 35 best, which amounts to two, sometimes three on each genre (most cover 2-3 genres).  Depending on the subject these people tend to be well known in their particular field and subject area and are what we call "Key Influencers". They are active in forums on their subject area and on Good Reads and social media.

The problem is there are many authors trying to talk about their books when no-one really wants to listen. Key influencers can sell books, some times in volume.

I have a single reviewer on a single genre whom I can show has sold 1800 print copies in online sales  on a single Facebook recommendation. The reason is because everyone knows them, they are well connected in their particular interest group (military history) and hence anything they say amounts to an endorsement. Outside that particular milieu they will probably sell nothing. A significant tweet or post on social media from one person can be an announcement. All the time consuming "other" is just noise. 

The reason I know they sold 1800 books is because it is for one of our publishing clients and we tracked their campaign using iRabbit. The book was mainstream non-fiction in a topical subject matter on a niche interest - World War One - and the book is considered "important". 

iRabbit works because you can set a campaign loose and follow exactly where it goes to - even if it jumps from Facebook to Goodreads and back again. Ultimately that means you can follow a social media campaign and find out exactly what sales result from it. You can, if you wish, also reward people who assisted in its transmission with free books, draws or competition entries.

I have an iRabbit promotion running at the moment for a Pirate fiction book which has had 3500+ hand-ons in the last two days. They aren't sales and only a fraction will convert to sales but 3500 more people are currently aware of the author than they were 2 days ago.  And it still has a month to run.

If you don't see any value in all that then I cannot help you.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

PaigeDoyle said:


> I think most people will agree we have the presentation largely right -- if not necessarily the sales pitch to authors. If anyone can help me with that by offering constructive suggestions and/or practical input it will be very welcome. Why not get involved and make it work how you want it to?


Well I'll bite, then, since you seem to need a bit of help.

1. You say you need the support of the author community, however, the way you address the authors asking questions and replying in this thread is, frankly, really off putting. You might not like the way they ask their questions, but they are members who this community--that you want support from--know and listen to. We don't know you.

Your marketing plan might be the greatest thing since sliced cheese, but at the moment you are creating unnecessary noise/hostility with the way your frame your responses. Do yourself a big favour and take a breath before you reply to questions, and try to see the core of it, rather than just critique or attacks.

2. Tell us the immediate and long-term value it has to our careers. Show evidence.
By skimming your site I can sort of see where you're headed, and it has potential, but unless you have readers already connecting on the site--like Goodreads has, for free--then the current potential value I can see is: Your social media connected reviewers and the irabbit system.
I'd suggest giving more than anecdotal proof for this being worth the fees you charge, which brings us to point 3.

3. If the full value of the system isn't there yet, because you are still building your audience, then either offer memberships for free until you hit critical mass, or--if you believe it is already worth the fees--offer free memberships and campaigns to a few trusted 'opinion shapers' from this forum. It's been done before by other marketing companies, and worked (or would have, if they didn't turn out to be lying scammers) with great success.

I hope you find this helpful.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

PaigeDoyle said:


> "Trade publishers" is an established term and they currently account for 94.6% by sales value of the world's published books (online and digital) market. Usage of "Traditional Publishers" (or "trad" as you have it) is largely confined to the Independent Publishers sector. If you don't think the independent sector has anything to learn from Trade Publishing's 200+ year experience of selling books you are delusional.
> 
> No one is asking you to buy a review but as you probably know getting volunteer reviews is not easy.
> 
> ...


I've already been there and learned everything I need, thanks. I''d rather not be abused, I'd rather make money, and I'd rather not rely on hoping that some underpaid lackey doesn't decide to go home early for the day instead of doing his job.

Traditional publishers do NOT use "iRabbit." They don't even use NetGalley for a lot of books. And the purpose of the reviews they seek is to impress book buyers and librarians, not to get sales from the general public, except for a very limited number of genre-specific magazines which I can access anyway. They use newspaper reviews, but newspaper reviews don't sell books. (Shocking, I know, but true.)

Where are your eyeballs? Who sees these reviews? We now have a reference to one reviewer who posts to a Facebook group about his military history reads. (And I think this reviewer is actually you....) Okay. What about everyone else? Who are these reviewers, and how are they influencers?

Other than your assertion, I can't find anything about any "iRabbit" except the sex toy. Would you please link to someone discussing it in the context of the gaming or music industry?

What is iRabbit, other than a website for every single book you write, fragmenting our branding and our online presence and drastically multiplying our work? (I'm releasing four titles this MONTH.) Apparently, you have some link redirection that you can use to track campaigns. I have that, too--it's a free Wordpress plugin. And I can use my affiliate tags to track actual conversions--something iRabbit can't do on a site like Amazon and B&N.

This is all I get from your site:

"At its most basic you can set the bunny running (sorry) and see what happens -- counting the sales resulting from your campaign as they pop out at the other end.

"But dig deeper and our tools enable you to analyse the interactions at the individual level and start to refine the timing and style of your offers and promotions."

That doesn't mean anything! What are the specifics? What does it do? What are the tools? What can you do that Hubspot doesn't do a hundred times better?

Now, I know I'm a popular girl, but I don't have hundreds of friends. I do, however, have hundreds of fans who have joined my mailing list and connect with me on social media, which will soon be thousands. And after the first two months that I was published, I had no problems getting reviews. Right now, what I understand from your service is that I would be buying reviews that you apparently think I should post various places to get people to see and that I should have a website for every book that includes and A/B split testing plugin.

You seem to think that we're easy marks--that we're desperate for anything that looks like it might work. Most of the people here are working professionals, and a lot of us are full-time writers with full-time incomes. There are people on this board pulling $4 mil a year. There are dozens of us pulling between $50k and $250k. What have you got to offer, in very specific terms? Ditch the marketing. Show screeenshots of tools.

You say, "You don't need to know that iRabbit is based on the great mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci's ten digit notation but we thought a diagram might help"--except that in addition to being condescending, doesn't actually make sense, because I think you're trying to talk about the Fibonacci sequence, which really has no application here other than that is seems "viralish" and so someone named the idea after Fibonacci's conceit. Believe it or not, there are MANY dozens of people on this board who have studied mathematics at a high level and more than a couple of actual mathematicians, and when you make assertions of that sort, it doesn't come over well. That's sheer fluffery.

The reviews you currently link to are in other people's newspapers. I can lnoy find a couple that you've done--and by that I mean YOU, personally. Right now, the website is geared toward authors, not readers. I don't see what a reader would get out of it.

Within my genre, about 20% of the TOTAL market is currently owned by independent authors, and that's growing year-over-year. You might think that we're desperate because of announcements that the ebook market has gone flat. But it actually hasn't. It's gone flat for traditional publishers. We're eating all the growth. We're interested in tools that can help our growth. I don't see that here.

So pretend you're talking to the author of this book (because you actual are--she's on the board):
http://www.amazon.com/Arrangement-15-Ferro-Family-ebook/dp/B00L0STS4K/

What do you bring to the table that could help her?


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

VM, you and I have clashed in the past, but I kind of love you for that post.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)




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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

PaigeDoyle said:


> Pleased to now you Rin and thanks for the information.
> 
> Straying into Kboards has been a little like walking on to a film set. Rin is the Judy Garland figure in the calico dress. Everyone else is antagonistic. But let's see what we can get from the few moments of our lives that each of us have given to this thread. I promise to be honest even if that means taking no prisoners.
> 
> ...


Wow. Way to gain goodwill. Not.



> *On Sheila_Guthrie I get a librarian, slightly proper? *Whereas *Perry Constantine* is an Atticus Finch figure (nothing wrong with that).


You get wrong. But you made me laugh, so that's something.



> Let me explain how it works. I have around 120 reviewers at the moment, all of them competent, 35 of them outstanding. They review books for free all the time. The bulk of them even buy the books they review. But the books they review for free are of their choosing. Inevitably they largely choose books by known authors and if you want them to review a book by someone they likely never heard of, then you have to buy their time.
> 
> Trade publishers know this. If they can get reviewed for free in a newspaper they will take the option but if they cannot they will put it on NetGalley which they pay for.
> 
> All our reviews and reviewers are proudly independent and we don't plug bad books which aren't worth our readers' time.


I don't care how it works. The only reviews that seem to matter are the customer reviews at sites like Amazon, and places like Goodreads. Neither of which we have to pay a single dime for. I don't know if Netgalley is effective, though I've seen some here report good results. But here's the thing: we can get on their ourselves.



> In detail, for *Sheila_Guthrie,* the two story collections look interesting. Good illustrations on the covers. I would have liked them to look more like a series so the first sold the second. But what do I know? Blog is OK if you like french beans. It's a charity book (but I would probably put that smaller in your promo). Ask us nicely and we will probably review it for free.


Well, the second and third books in my siggie aren't mine, I just have a story in each, so no control over the covers or anything else related to them except for what I wrote about them. If you want to review it, you should ask the editor, but I'm guessing she'd decline if she's read any of this thread.

Thanks for checking out my blog, by the way, as I'm always glad for hits.



> The single page is a one time payment for a listing *MarkOetjens*. It gateways you into other areas which you can use to plan a proper marketing strategy which is never a single event. These don't cost any more money but they require a little work on your part to implement them. What the $10 page does is chip away a little more at "the discoverability problem" and means I can begin take an interest in you and your books.
> 
> I make a living by selling books. I don't make a living by taking money off authors at $10 a time.
> 
> Let me tell you what I now of you right now. *You've been ill - sorry to hear that - and you wrote a book some time in 2010 which you self pubbed under an imprint called Conquer. I don't imagine it sold well. *You're currently writing short stories - an area so notoriously difficult to market that if an agent had xray eyes he wouldn't open the letter before he dropped it in the bin. You have a website using the default WordPress theme which you publish to quite often but it doesn't line up. How many readers do you get on it a day? 2? 3? I have to tell you, whatever it is, it's spam-bots looking for a way in. If you want me to take an interest in you, you pay me $10. If you don't, then fine I will go away.


Again, epic at earning goodwill. Any interest I ever remotely considered in buying a "page" has long since flown the coop (that's a reference to other posts on my blog, in case you missed it).

By the way, most of us here have zero interest in agents, or what they think of us.



> *The source is Nielsen so I think it is likely to be correct.*


You must have missed the fact that we indies know about Nielsen's reporting, which uses ISBNs. Most of us don't use them, except for those sites that still require them, and on POD books. A bunch of us use the free ones from Smashwords, which lists them as publisher and not each individual author, so those numbers are way off.



> What I am saying is trad/trade whatever you want to call them have been around for a long time and they will continue to be so because they get some things - particularly marketing - right. We work with them and they usually know what they are doing.


Except they don't know anything about self-publishing and what we need, and apparently you don't either. Most trad pub authors get no marketing, and some get very little, by the way.

What we need is honest, effective places to get our work noticed by the only people who count: readers. We don't need bought reviews, or yet another site that makes big claims about how much they can do for us without showing any evidence of it. We don't need yet another post that extolls the virtues of trad pubs and how smart they are about publishing, because we see the evidence to the contrary every day.

Thanks, vmblack for you fantastic posts. You said it better than I could.

I just had to add this snippet, which I'd overlooked:



> You should be exploring ways you can work with us not ticking us off. *Online we're two weeks old* but we're going places. I need a section editor for Erotic Romance. Send me an email and let's talk.


Only two weeks? You seriously think you have anything to offer us? And you expect us to pay you?


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't think anyone abused you VM. I think it was one of your people that was threatening the "shopkeeper" with "the rope" (now removed).

Here are a few points to consider.

It's true that I can probably sell 250-300 copies with a personal book recommendation on a military subject but I am not the reviewer I mentioned. 

We currently have 4 trade publishers using iRabbit and two trialling it. I would guess pretty much any publishing industry professional could tell you who they are.

It works because you get to put a campaign together which other people who share your interests want to promote and spread. That could be an offer, an event or a promotion. (We can help you with that).

Most importantly it is based on sales you achieve or convert. You need to have a presence on the site but you only pay a commission on sales if you decide to use it. And it follows our "no hidden fees" policy so everything is disclosed from the outset.

Very interesting that 20% of the new adult paranormal romance / urban fantasy market is now commanded by independents. Not sure how many that means in actual copies. Would it be 1, 10, 100 or 1000?


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> What we need is honest, effective places to get our work noticed by the only people who count: readers.


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi Shelia, 

I flagged up the travelling titles you edit because I like the covers they look interesting to me. Zombie Town doesn't appeal to me on a personal level unfortunately but I can see why it would cast its thrall over others in this particular section of the kboards community.

You also seem to have disconnected on the way. I'm also interested in securing readers for you because under our charging model we largely get paid on what we sell.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Reader checking in.

Why should I use your website?  What draws readers to your website?  What are you doing to make sure readers find and use your website?


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

Yeah, my biggest thing here isn't about paying for a fair review or a new site charging for them--but I don't see the draw for readers. What are you going to do to get readers looking at your site, reading your reviews, and purchasing based on them? That's the draw for me. If I pay $75 bucks and I see a return of $100--then it's a no-brainer that the site is good. Right now, I doubt that would happen. So would you mind explaining what the plan is to have readers going to your site as opposed to GoodReads/their friends/any other place where reviews are to hear about new books?


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## chris56 (Jun 8, 2013)

PaigeDoyle said:


> Bookmarq.net really is a network. It uses a unique multiuser version of WordPress which as been designed bottom-up for writers who want to sell books. Hence we currently host just short of 200 author sites which appear externally like standard WordPress but actually live on our system.
> 
> How that works is detailed here: http://www.bookmarq.net/why-bm-blog/
> 
> The advantage with that arrangement is we can bring content they add on their own site and run it on the section pages where it should get a great deal more exposure than if it ran just on their own site.


If I'm reading this correctly, you are suggesting that authors host their websites on your network rather than running their sites independently. If that's the case, I strongly advise against it. You may think that some of the author websites out there are appalling and it's true, some of them are. But, they own their websites and they own their content. If they join your network it's beneficial to you because you can use any of their content but in essence, they no longer have full control over their websites.

Many authors use Blogger and Wordpress.com to build their sites and in doing so, they are at risk of losing all of their content because those free blogging sites can remove a site on a whim without giving the author time to copy and move their content. I've seen it happen to several people, which is why I advise anyone (not just authors, but anyone) who is going to put up a website to purchase their domain name and set up their own hosting.

It may be easier for some people to use your network to host their websites but what happens if your business fails and you decide to move on to something else? I'm not suggesting that will happen, but it's certainly something people need to consider before they put their website in your hands. Websites are a very important part of any business - whether you're an author, a lawyer or just someone selling widgets - and you're much better off being completely independent by owning your domain and putting it on your own hosting account.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

PaigeDoyle said:


> Very interesting that 20% of the new adult paranormal romance / urban fantasy market is now commanded by independents. Not sure how many that means in actual copies. Would it be 1, 10, 100 or 1000?


You seem a little... high-falutin' about the self-publishing industry for someone who's trying to pitch a service to self-publishers. Or perhaps the word I'm looking for is misinformed.

Lots of self-publishers post actual sales numbers -- on blogs, on personal websites, on this board. Maybe you should look into some of them, so you have a better idea of what kind of sales numbers successful independent authors expect... and are achieving.

By no stretch of the imagination does trade publishing own 96% of the ebook market. In any genre.

I'm honestly baffled by the antagonism... didn't you come here looking for customers?


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## kiwifruit (Dec 30, 2013)

PaigeDoyle said:


> We're book marketing professionals. I appreciate your interest and any more questions that you may have.


From one marketing professional to another, can I suggest you change your business facebook page to that of a Page rather than a personal profile? Whilst it does offer readers the opportunity to see who your four friends are (assume they're your colleagues?) I'm sure you will agree that abiding by Facebook's TOS and showing you have at least a rudimentary understanding of the worlds largest social media platform is vital to any marketing company's success.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

PaigeDoyle said:


> Very interesting that 20% of the new adult paranormal romance / urban fantasy market is now commanded by independents. Not sure how many that means in actual copies. Would it be 1, 10, 100 or 1000?


Um, for at least one author on these boards that I can think of in that space, it often means in excess of 1000 copies a DAY.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. You have no platform. Why would I submit, much less pay, to get exposure for my books when you have no presence at all. Your site averages 1 unique user a day (I think that was me). You have 1 Facebook like and 19 Twitter followers. Where is the value for me? I see where it is for you. We spend time and money creating content for you. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Create something worth paying for and you'll be up to your patootie in people signing up. It will take a lot of time and money (on your part), but that's how small businesses work. It's how our businesses work. Maybe in 6 months, you'll have something great. Although, it looks like you're really selling hosting and that's a whole 'nother kettle of (don't do it, folks!) fish.

No animosity here. Just confusion as to what I would get from using your services. The lack of specifics on the site (and here) do not inspire confidence in even taking a flyer.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

Where's Julie? Surely she can sense a disturbance in the force?


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

PaigeDoyle said:


> I don't think anyone abused you VM. I think it was one of your people that was threatening the "shopkeeper" with "the rope" (now removed).


Um. I've made more than a quarter million dollars in traditional publishing. And I was mis-published, lied to, and stolen from. I have no idea what you're talking about or who "my people" are supposed to be.



PaigeDoyle said:


> We currently have 4 trade publishers using iRabbit and two trialling it. I would guess pretty much any publishing industry professional could tell you who they are.


Can you please provide links? I assure you that I'm reasonably well-connected in industry. And I have never heard of it.



PaigeDoyle said:


> Very interesting that 20% of the new adult paranormal romance / urban fantasy market is now commanded by independents. Not sure how many that means in actual copies. Would it be 1, 10, 100 or 1000?


Actually, I was talking about romance. That's a $1.4 billion market in the US. So that's $280 million among indies.

I assume you mean copies of indie books in my genre? That depends on the price point, but I'd say about 90 million or so per year.

There are at LEAST five people who have posted ***on this thread right here*** who are selling at least 100 books a day. To give you an idea of how much we are selling, there are writers on this board at every level: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,150985.0.html


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

V. M. Black said:


> Other than your assertion, I can't find anything about any "iRabbit" except the sex toy. Would you please link to someone discussing it in the context of the gaming or music industry?


Well, sex sells. >_>

*ducks projectiles*


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

You don't even have to sell that much to do well if you're positioned right.  There's a woman with only three books.  First one's free.  She sells about 30 per day of the others and has done for 2 years now.  Probably higher before.  Not very impressive, right?  Well, the price on the others is $9.99.  So she's making $200 a day on something she wrote two years ago and hardly even promotes.  That's $70k a year.

Her genre?  Lesbian historical fiction.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

First off this is my observations:
1) You came here listing this as a 10.00 marketing PLAN. What you in fact are offering after reading your continued replies and original post is not a plan so much as just a page where you can put your book, Bio etc. I can do this on my own website on either Wix or Wordpress for free. I save 10.00.

2) Your FIRST response to people here was to reference them as CHARACTERS on  FILM SET. As someone who HAS been on a film set let me tell you right now, yeah NO. The People you just were trying to recruit you insulted and were rather dismissive of IMHO. I know people in marketing and who are DAMN good at it and they would laugh in your face for doing that. That is NOT how you get customers

3) For a review you want us to pay you how much?  Umm no. You titled this thread as a 10.00 plan. Now, not only have you NOT offered a plan you are advertising your review services. This is called bait and switch and honestly it is viewed as one of the MOST despised methods of marketing and salesmanship ever invented.

4) When asked for proof and links and direct answers to questions I am seeing vague answers or blowing people off or just plain ignored. You have been repeatedly asked very direct questions that indie authors are going to ask and you have FAILED to provide the facts, figures and proof that has been asked for. I am sorry but if I am going to my bank for a loan I am going to want to know EXACTLY where my money is going, how much pays interest, what is my interest etc. Same deal. I want to know EXACTLY what your business can do for me. I want the black and white facts, figures and such written out in DETAIL. Haven't seen it yet.

5)You say you are basing it off Traditional Publishing yet are there to help the indie author.. I have yet to see where you are going to benefit me. All I have seen/read so far is that you are going to create a page about me and my book after I PAY you to do it and if I PAY you more then I get a review and then I have to PAY you more to get more "help" with my marketing plan.
      a) I can do a bio and a write up about my book on my own site within an HOUR for FREE during the times my book is driving me nuts. That's FREE and saving my brain.
      b) I can get reviews without paying for them. I can hand out ARC's and hit the blogs. People can buy the book and leave a review. Might take some time but its FREE.
      c) I can develop my own marketing plan and if I need help I can ask fellow authors or friends who ARE marketing pro's or who have more experience marketing then I do. There is also a thing called Google. ALL FREE.
    d) there are plug ins and add ons that can track where my sales come from. I personally dont CARE about if this persons review bounces from this place, to that place, to that place to Joe's inbox and then Joe buys the book. I want to know Joe bought the book based on an email he received. I dont need the rest. Its clutter. Those programs are FREE

All this stuff does is take time and most of it not THAT much time over all because once its set up the bulk of the work is done. I have not at any point seen ANYTHING in the way of fact, links, visual proof etc that would make me want to take my hard earned dollars and hand them to you and say "Here lets do business!" When I can keep those dollars in my pocket and put them towards my next book.

All that being said, thank you for offering your service and making us aware of it but at this time until more facts and proof and such is offered up OR you have established a much better history of long term success (like 2 years vs 2 weeks) then I and I am thinking (not speaking for, just my opinion) the majority of the other authors on this board are going to pass.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Boyd said:


> You aren't the only one. Fan love here also


Awwww. You boys are so nice.


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## chris56 (Jun 8, 2013)

Paige Doyle is a he, not a she according to this from the website:



> Paige Doyle is Managing Editor at bookmarq.net. He got into books when he became too old to get anywhere in the music business. . .


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## PaigeDoyle (Mar 9, 2014)

The site isn't one site it's a network. Bookmarq.net is where you sign up and it acts as the mothership. It's a place where you can get author support, reference supplier services, get access to training courses, articles etc. It doesn't have "one unique vistor" a day and we run our social media through a few key influencers who work for us rather than corporately. If you want to know why we do this I will send you a white paper "Why one key influencer is worth a thousand 'likes'"

We began in the music business and we're still involved in that, we sold the gaming business to Playtech earlier this year and an associated company runs 1.3m blogs in the educational sector.

In terms of bookmarq you can optionally sign up for hosting with one of three packages, one to promote a single book, one to promote an author (multiple books), one to promote a publishing department (multiple author, multiple books). There is also another package we call Enterprise which is the entire set-up duplicated and which can work for an entire publishing house.

In book publishing we currently host 140 single book sites, 82 author sites, 18 publisher department sites and 2 enterprise sites (soon to be 3). Every one of them began on a 14 day free trial, ran one iRabbit campaign within that trial and every one of them signed up for the paid version, presumably because they were pleased with the results.

They all run on their own domains. The advantages to them is that they get a choice of a load of premium themes they would normally have to pay $$$ for, professional plugins - some of which are exclusive and specifically designed for the publishing industry - and security and backups are dealt with at the network level. Effectively they can design, build and own their own house but it exists within a gated community.

Each site comes with an estore which is extremely flexible. It means they can sell their own ebooks direct and deal with printed sales (which are more difficult as you have to ship the book) how they wish - by sending it to their own publisher, a favoured bookshop or Amazon. In each case they can collect the sales data so they know who actually bought their books.

They can (optionally) supply content to the network so anything they produce on  their blog can also be published centrally.

We're just at the point with content where we can start to break the main site down into sub sites so each subject area (non-fiction) and each genre (fiction) has its own site with its own front page and sub genres. These genre and subject sites are aimed at garnering a public readership based on interest groups. 

The concept is that if you're interested in buying erotic fiction by (a) then you might also be interested in buying erotic fiction by (b) so it makes sense to cross push them.  Say you decide to buy (b)'s book than the sale is dealt with through (b)'s store. In the case of a printed title this is very appealing, particular to publishers as they are selling retail, vastly increasing their margin. In the case of an author it should be appealing because they can set their own pricing models and are not guided in their pricing by Amazon commission levels.

We envisage the sub sites will be very much content driven. We currently host 120 book blogger sites which are effectively free blogs we give to "professional readers" who regularly review books. Most of these were found on "Goodreads" or Amazon where they were reviewing unpaid. The blog is theirs, under their own name and domain and we give them a plugin which enables them to take a commission on books sold through their reviews. This currently routes sales to Amazon in most cases unless we host the author in which case the sale goes to them. Of these 120 reviewers we currently have 35 reviewers who work semi-professionally in that they write reviews we syndicate on their behalf. This might be to publications or specialist websites or - increasingly frequently - to publishers who want a review pre-publication. As you know we also offer reviews from these reviewers on a chargeable basis. I don't see any problem in doing this - it is commonplace in the industry - and if you don't want to you don't have to buy them. We think the pricing model we have adopted is much more sustainable than that of Kirkus of Foreword. 

In terms of marketing we come from a company called Loytech (Loyalty Technology) - which was sold to Playtech - the world's largest company for Casino games earlier this year. Our particular expertise is in data manipulation and marketing and leveraging social media as a marketing tool. 

Our greatest skill is in devising campaigns that are addictive and go viral. The Pirate campaign I mentioned is a good example. The concept was to increase the exposure of an author who writes historical fiction about pirates. Pirates are a nice niche so it's a 25 book giveaway in cahoots with a number of publishers. We nominate the 5 best pirate books ever in each of 5 categories, Classic Pirate books, Contemporary Historical Fiction Pirate books, Non Fiction Pirate Books, Children's Pirate Books and Pirate Activity books (Stickers, Colouring books and the like). The pages detail all the books and you can vote as to which you think is the best. By voting you have a chance of winning the book. You can double your chance of winning by passing on details of the competition on social media. So people circulate it. When we announce the winners we recirculate the list with money off coupons so if you didn't win you can buy the book. Obviously we collect data all the way.

iRabbit is very simple in what it does. It tracks campaigns across social media. So if you send out a campaign like the Pirate one on Facebook and on one branch it jumps to Twitter then you don't lose track of it, you can follow it right through to the sale it makes. 

That's very important when it comes to a review and particularly in niches. As I mentioned earlier we have one reviewer who can generate more than a thousand sales. Identifying key influencers like this is gold dust to traditional publishers and should be for authors too.

The one requirement is that we have to host the page where the sale takes place or I can't track it. 

You will note that this thread is headed "The $10 starter book marketing plan". That's because that's what it is - a starter. You don't have to buy a review, host with us or really do anything else. You get your page and we devise and run a campaign with you, set it running and see if it makes any sales. If it doesn't you spent $10 but you still have a book promotion page. If it does work you might expand your presence and run another one.

That's how it has always worked in the past for others. And will again.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

At best, this sounds like a platform for the traditional publishing model. It seems like trying to take what's worked for traditional publishers and what their needs are and applying that to indies, which isn't always the case. Wonderful that the trades have "200+ years of experience," but the market is completely different from what it was and as we've seen in recent years, the trades are struggling to adapt to it. So I don't really see how relying on their experience is going to help us when it's not doing a whole lot for them.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Links and screen shots of this system in action would be nice.


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

Again, why are readers coming to your site?


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Now that you're not being so pissy, it sounds more interesting.  Thank you for being more professional.

WHICH site are they coming to?  If that isn't the reader site, please let us see them so we can actually experience what it's like.

I'd like to see the iRabbit in action.  (SERIOUSLY?  iRabbit?  I can't get over that.  It's a VERY well-know adult toy, too.)  Again, screenshots?  Websites? Video?

I will spend up to $10 per 100 free downloads or 5 paid $2.99 books.  That's my "it's worth it" price.  I'm using 20% of my income to throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks.  But it has to be strategic.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

1) How are you directing READERS to your reviews?

2) How do READERS find you?

3) These 600 books you sold--which genres are they in?

4) Will you be posting this paid review on Amazon (against their TOS, btw) and Goodreads?

5) What is your promotion strategy to get readers? I know you said you have over 100 reviewers but if each of them is just posting one review a week on their FB page, that's not going to get too many eyes. I have a master list of 500 reader pages on Facebook and I know who posts there and yeah...I've been tracking sales too.

6) Admittedly, $10 is not a big investment, but that's just to put content on YOUR website. A review will cost me $30 and your FB page currently won't make back my $30 investment.You need to post screen shots and links so we can see ROI.

These are basic questions all KB Cafe writers ask traveling salesmen at least once or twice a month.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Dear Mr. Doyle:

As my grandaddy used to say, "you only get one chance to make a good first impression."

I would never do business with someone who found it necessary to be discourteous to the very people he was trying to do business with.

Might I suggest this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Be-Our-Guest-Perfecting-Institute/dp/1423145844

Good luck attracting customers.

Kind regards

G


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## MarkOetjens (Jan 10, 2014)

PaigeDoyle---EPIC FAIL!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Nigel Mitchell (Jan 21, 2013)

Now that PaigeDoyle has started providing actual information, I have reviewed it and will be looking elsewhere. It looks like the topic was a bait-and-switch to get people to sign up for a page, and then charge more money for a review which I honestly don't see any value in or can't get somewhere else for free. As for iRabbit, if it was as influential as you claim, you wouldn't have to explain it - we would already have heard of it. It looks like a program designed for other media that you're going to try to apply to publishing, which sounds like it might work but maybe not.

I just want to say to Paige that you need to understand your audience. I understand you think your service is the greatest thing to authors since cookbooks on sliced bread (and maybe it is), but some of the people you're talking to have made more money in the past year than most TRADITIONALLY published authors have in a decade. Kboards is not a forum for desperate self-published authors looking for any attempt at clawing their way out of failure. This is where some of the biggest names in publishing spend their free time, discussing strategies, what works and doesn't work, and helping each other out. They have ample resources getting reviews, tracking sales information, and reaching readers, all with existing tools they use for free. When you approach them, you need to be able to tell them what you can provide they don't already have, and it better be good. I freely admit, I'm not one of the big names on here, but I've lurked for a long time and been continually amazed at the resourcefulness I've seen.

From everything you've said and shown, it seems clear to me that you're not a scammer, but also not well-versed in publishing. You talk about Kirkus as if that's your only competition at providing reviews, and it's not. Your sneering comment about new adult sales tells me you have no idea how much genre fiction sells (A LOT), which tells me you don't know much about publishers' sales figures in general.

I've been working in call centers for almost a decade, so I'm on the front line of customer relations. One of the first things we learn is that everything we say and do reflects on the company as a whole. PaigeDoyle, I don't know if you really are the owner of the service as some are claiming or not. If you are, go hire a PR rep and stay away from potential customers until you develop skills in customer relations. If you're not, stay away from potential customers and pray your boss doesn't find out you pissed off what could have been the greatest pool of clients the company could have ever had.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

And please let the authors know how you attract readers to your site.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

What Nigel Mitchel and VM Black have said.


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## Evan J (Feb 3, 2014)

Well thanks for letting me know about your service. I'll keep you in mind.


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

A bit of advice for you Paige from someone who has gone through the gauntlet here many times. 

1. Answer every question openly and honestly
2. Stay professional
3. Prove your results and everything will be copacetic

Finally, get some people here to test your system and let them post their results. Oh, and it helps to have hundreds and hundreds of testimonials to point to.


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

_The formula is the easy part: it is the implementation where the effort comes in:_

There is a simple formula which is key to all successful book marketing whether fiction or non-fiction, regardless of subject or genre which if followed will ensure you sell more books.

*Reach + Connection + Content = Book Sales*

WHERE *Reach* is either the people who know you, of you, or are people you can easily connect with; *Connection* is the ability to effectively contact them in a welcome and non-intrusive way; and *Content* is the quality and appropriateness of the message, be that an advertisement, marketing message, book review or extract.

Each is a plus on their own but all three need to be correctly aligned to deliver book sales in volume.

[list type=decimal]
[*]*High Reach, little Connection:* You may be fortunate enough to have thousands of social media followers and friends but unless you have a solid method of reaching them you are going nowhere;
[*]*High Connection, low Reach:* You may have a mailing list of a few dozen and a low traffic website which they all admire, but you won't make sales unless you can build your Reach into a much larger community (and take the love) with you;
[*]*High Reach, high Connection, wrong Content:* If your message or book is inappropriate or presented in an inappropriate manner to the audience with which you have connections you won't sell no matter how numerous they are.
[/list]

On the basis of the above it's possible to start creating a general marketing strategy which works for all books but which can be refined (in the message) for each specific title.

1. In the case of *high Reach, little Connection*, social media makes for great reach but little ongoing engagement People "like", "friend" and "follow" almost without thought.

_Takeaway from 1._ Direct sales are almost impossible to achieve through social media so to have any value it's vital to build enhanced connections and for that you need to deliver something socially which will capture them as a sale or into a mailing list on your own site.​
2. In the case of *high Connection, low Reach*, this can be a stronger position than 1. in the sense you are attracting an audience but not enough people are aware of you.

_Takeaway from 2._ Use your existing fans and their social media connections and leverage them into a viral campaign to encourage them to pass on an offer or promotion and increase your reach. The advantage of this kind campaign is it becomes self selecting ensuring Connection is maintained while Reach increases. For example say I am interested in Football and Flower Arranging, my Football friends will pass on my cool football offer, but my flower arranging friends will not, which also tends to resolve problems in 3.​
3. In the case of *wrong Content*, as outlined above in social media this can become self selecting. People generally will not pass on something they think would be inappropriate, so whatever your book is about you need to make it clear what the content is.

_Takeaway from 3._ Target your marketing. Make sure that whatever your package is it reflects the product you are trying to sell. Your book might the equivalent of a Cert NC-17 but your package content needs to be PG. If your book is explicit or violent or aimed at a particular market, make that clear but make sure that the wrapper on your package is not offensive to anyone who might stumble across it - just that they know what the content is and it might offend them and they should not go on.​
So how to achieve all this?

Clearly you need a Platform, a Plan, some Tools and a few ideas for Campaigns, plus a good audience management system to look after them.

I'm going to come back with a few ideas on those, but if you are impatient you can check out how we try to do it:
http://bookmarq.net/book-marketing/
and get a free assessment of your particular Reach, Connection and Content and how you might improve them.

In the meantime. I hope you enjoyed this particular *Content*, will *Connect* with me by joining my twice a week mailing list at and if you enjoyed or benefited from reading this post will extend my *Reach* by sharing it on Social Media and forums, blogs and websites and otherwise passing it on.

[URL=http://bookmarq]http://bookmarq.net/simple-works-every-time-formula-help-writers-publishers-sell-more-books/[/url]

_This thread has been merged with an earlier thread about bookmarq.net services. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

OK commenting on my own post - how sad is that? But I put this out eight hours ago and there are plenty of reads but nobody is disagreeing or hating it. 

Any thoughts on things I might have got wrong or which others might have got more right?


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

As you said in the beginning: The formula is simple. It's the implementation that's difficult.


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## Flopstick (Jul 19, 2011)

> Use your existing fans and their social media connections and leverage them into a viral campaign


I'd rather die.


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## Navigator (Jul 9, 2014)

Monique said:


> I knew bookmark.net was familar...
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=188987.0


Oh boy, thanks for sharing.



> Use your existing fans and their social media connections and leverage them into a viral campaign to encourage them to pass on an offer or promotion and increase your reach


I think most people would see that a mile away and would be turned off if the someone they were following started trying to get them (the fans) to do that.


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

Conrad.Murray said:


> OK commenting on my own post - how sad is that? But I put this out eight hours ago and there are plenty of reads but nobody is disagreeing or hating it.
> 
> Any thoughts on things I might have got wrong or which others might have got more right?


Respectfully, the initial post reads like an infomercial. The best discussions around here (in my opinion) are those that are triggered by earnest attempts at dialogue and not a pitch for a service.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2014)

abishop said:


> Respectfully, the initial post reads like an infomercial. The best discussions around here (in my opinion) are those that are triggered by earnest attempts at dialogue and not a pitch for a service.





> Conrad Murray is a pre-eminent book marketer working for authors and publishers in the UK and the USA.


Well, it was written by a book marketer, so....


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## Midnight Whimsy (Jun 25, 2013)

Monique said:


> I knew bookmark.net was familar...
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=188987.0


Following this link, I read the thread from July. I even read the signature for the OP, PaigeDoyle, as I was trucking through all the posts. It included a detailed little bio about his marketing experience.

I came back to this thread and read the signature for the OP, Conrad.Murray. It includes a detailed little bio about his marketing experience. A really familiar bio...

I went back to the PaigeDoyle thread, but at some point while I was reading, it was changed. Shame.

Either way, Mr. Conrad: Are you also Mr. Doyle?

Now don't get me wrong, many of us don't use our real names on the forums, or as authors, or on the internet in general. Nothing inherently wrong with that. And also nothing particularly wrong with getting a bad start and starting over with a new account.

However, due to nature of your selling services here and the requirement of trust and honesty involved, I think it would be best to cleanly admit the nature of this new account. In the spirit of honestly and open communication.

M.W


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Get your fans to love your books so much that they scream your name from the rooftops (and possibly in the throes of, erm, reading).

And, once again, it's the implementation that's difficult.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

*A simple works-every-time formula to help writers and publishers sell more books*

1. Write a friggin' awesome book that people can't put down until they are finished and can't stop talking about to all their friends and love so much that they write fanfiction to fill the empty hole in their lives until the next book comes out.

2. Tell the world about it.

3. Profit.

Works every time. Implementation may be a little tricky, but if you get it right, it is foolproof.

_I have nothing to sell you. I share this magical formula out of the goodness of my heart. Go forth and prosper. _


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## books_mb (Oct 29, 2013)

MyraScott said:


> *A simple works-every-time formula to help writers and publishers sell more books*
> 
> 1. Write a friggin' awesome book that people can't put down until they are finished and can't stop talking about to all their friends and love so much that they write fanfiction to fill the empty hole in their lives until the next book comes out.
> 
> ...


I can top that:

Step 1. Collect words
Step 2. ?
Step 3. PROFIT

You're welcome!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Midnight Whimsy said:


> Following this link, I read the thread from July. I even read the signature for the OP, PaigeDoyle, as I was trucking through all the posts. It included a detailed little bio about his marketing experience.
> 
> I came back to this thread and read the signature for the OP, Conrad.Murray. It includes a detailed little bio about his marketing experience. A really familiar bio...
> 
> ...


Paige Doyle's existence is suspect. His Paige Doyle Associates does not exist as far as the internet is concerned.

Whether they are the same person or not, this entire thing is highly suspect.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

thread locked while moderators discuss . . . .

_EDIT by Betsy : We're still in discussions but are merging Bookmarq.net threads as author service providers may have only one thread.

After threads are merged, we will be reviewing the thread to see if it can be reopened after some pruning. Thanks for understanding_


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Okay, here's what concerns me.

1. The attitude of your "employee" in the other thread when touting for business.

2. Claims on your site which can't be backed up, e.g. the books you have written on marketing (there's nothing under your name I can find on Amazon) or the claims to be "an industry leading figure in book marketing" when you appear to have no professional experience in book marketing - http://linkd.in/1ot0OWx

3. You also talk about "publisher and author clients." Who are they? Most sites would be trumpeting their clients, but I can't see mention on yours.

4. You provide a range of services on your site, with no prices at all. This is a major red flag.

5. I'm not sure if Paige Doyle is a real person. The bio link on your site leads to a broken page: http://bookmarq.net/author/newpaige/ The only real reference on the internet to a "Paige Doyle" that works at Bookmarq is a LinkedIn page which says Paige Doyle works at Paige Doyle Associates. This company doesn't seem to exist. Another red flag.

6. "Paige Doyle" has one person in his Google+ circles. That person is Conrad Murray.

7. You are selling reviews with apparently no care for the ethical side of this.

8. For a "marketing expert" the Bookmarq site is pretty shoddy. Broken links abound, and the Alexa score is terrible. There is also zero engagement anywhere. No comments on the posts. A grand total of ONE Facebook Like, SIXTEEN Twitter followers, and no engagement whatsoever on either platform.

9. I can find no reference to a forthcoming book from Knopf by Conrad Murray.

Is that enough? Do I have to keep going?

*Betsy: if we can't protect the members here from shady operators, what's the point?*

_Post moved from metadata thread by Conrad to the services thread by Conrad for bookmarq.net, which was merged with another thread for bookmarq.net. --Betsy_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

dgaughran said:


> Betsy: if we can't protect the members here from shady operators, what's the point?


David,

I have no problems with asking tough questions about a business--and there are two (soon to be one, I think) business threads for bookmarque.net. Questions in those threads about the business would be appropriate. These questions would probably do more good if asked in that thread where credentials were provided. Edited to add: That way members could see the original statements by the business.

This was originally in a thread about metadata...surely that is a legitimate discussion here on KBoards? If you don't think the information provided about metadata has value--by all means poke holes in it. That's a fair discussion no matter who starts the thread.

Finally, again, if you have questions about whether a member has multiple accounts, you protect the forum by asking the admin team to look into it. We have our ways. I do wonder, though, if you think two members are the same person, AND you think that person is shady, do you expect confronting them in a thread is going to make them do a facepalm and confess? That's not been my experience.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod

_Edited to reflect post move from the metadata thread to this one. --Betsy_


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

> Okay, here's what concerns me.
> 
> 1. The attitude of your "employee" in the other thread when touting for business.
> 
> ...


Hi David.

Your Questions, My Answers. I hope this deals with this once-and-for-all

_
1. Q: The attitude of your "employee" in the other thread when touting for business._
A: Paige put up an article which is actually a promo for a decent author marketing package which costs $70 a year. You list your books on the "reviews exchange" and you will likely get three independent reviews. We then push them on. Typically they generate a minimum of 100-200 booksales but if thought goes into the promotion it can be many times more. The sale is transactional so if you don't sell you don't pay.

Like all our packages it was fully priced and you were told what you would get, but because it was a marketing package a number of people on this forum jumped in and called him every name of a dog. There was even a threat of an online lynching - all of which were later removed. There are elements on KBoards - particularly in Writer's Cafe - which post frequently and scare others away. There are a lot of other people who don't post at all, hundreds who read posts and want to know stuff. Following my post yesterday I have had numerous on-topic questions, around 50 - none of which were posted to the boards. That suggests to me that there is an underlying culture of fear which even Betsy and her team cannot defray.

_2. Q: 2. Claims on your site which can't be backed up, e.g. the books you have written on marketing (there's nothing under your name I can find on Amazon) or the claims to be "an industry leading figure in book marketing" when you appear to have no professional experience in book marketing - http://linkd.in/1ot0OWx_
A I don't currently publish marketing books on Amazon. I see that your "Let's get Digital" sells at $5.03. The Cygnus books were subscription only and are the standard works for data product marketing. They initial in-depth reports sell at $2499 with seminars and briefings and the cut-down reports were (and are) sold at $999 off the shelf and and $799 to existing subscribers mostly to commercial clients. They go mostly to corporates who sell digital products (including books) online. My main clients for them in digital sales are corporates involved in gambling, gaming, the music business and photographic rights and illustration. I do three presentations a month on average to digital clients. I am a paid consultant to five British publishers, one American network publisher and one Australian publisher. Who they are or what I do with them has nothing to do with you.

_
3. You also talk about "publisher and author clients." Who are they? Most sites would be trumpeting their clients, but I can't see mention on yours._
See above. I don't need to trumpet my clients. Bookmarq.net is primarily about promoting authors - either unpublished, previously published or self-published. That is a different business to my consultancy for traditional publishers and authors.

_4. You provide a range of services on your site, with no prices at all. This is a major red flag._
That claim is absolute rubbish and easily knocked over with links to the pages.

We price everything and the entire business is based on fixed-fee or a transactional reward based on what you sell.

Here is the list of services we provide all detailed on the site:

*Wordpress Hosting:* See: http://bookmarq.net/wordpress-hosting/
Full design package: Package price: $399 plus $15/month hosting and support charges.
Assisted build and training: Package price: $199 plus $15/month hosting and support charges.
DIY: 14 day free trial. Package price: Free with $15/month hosting and support charges.

*Managed Book Marketing * See: http://bookmarq.net/marketing-services/
It starts at $70 for a year with all additional payments only based on sales results.

*Editing Services* See: http://bookmarq.net/self-publishing/editing-services/
from $0.035 per word to $0.08 per word.

We also provide the cost of each individual edit on the page line-by-line

*Cover Design:* See: http://bookmarq.net/self-publishing/professional-cover-design/
We don't price up because it depends on the job. Neither will your sister - who knows far more about this business than you do - neither will anyone else.

*Finding a Publisher:* See http://bookmarq.net/traditional-authors/
We charge $175 to review a 10,000 word sample. 
We charge $199 to prepare and submit a professional presentation for to up to 10 agents in New York or London.

All our courses and training are priced. So why do you say we don't?

_5. I'm not sure if Paige Doyle is a real person. The bio link on your site leads to a broken page: http://bookmarq.net/author/newpaige/ The only real reference on the internet to a "Paige Doyle" that works at Bookmarq is a LinkedIn page which says Paige Doyle works at Paige Doyle Associates. This company doesn't seem to exist. Another red flag.
_

Paige doesn't do social media. Most people don't.

_6. "Paige Doyle" has one person in his Google+ circles. That person is Conrad Murray._
See above. It's highly likely I told Paige and others they should do Google+ to increase their visibility. It is also entirely likely they told me to feck-off.

_7. You are selling reviews with apparently no care for the ethical side of this._
Loads of people provide review services, Kirkus, Foreword and the more dodgily named Kindle Book Reviews. We now have 140+ book reviewers each of which were had selected and provide wonderfully independent reviews.

The way our review service works is the author pays $70 for unlimited access to post their books to the reviews exchange and the marketing package that accompanies it. So any of those 140 can pick a title and review it. Books normally get three to five reviews which are shared under Creative Commons so they can be used elsewhere. The marketing package means they then commit to pay us a proportion of the sales we can be shown to make for them, In a recent cross-publisher promotion we did we got in excess of 2m eyeballs and have currently sold 40,000+ books.

_8. For a "marketing expert" the Bookmarq site is pretty shoddy. Broken links abound, and the Alexa score is terrible. There is also zero engagement anywhere. No comments on the posts. A grand total of ONE Facebook Like, SIXTEEN Twitter followers, and no engagement whatsoever on either platform._

We lifted bookmarq.net out of Loyalty Technology BV and Bookmarq is a relatively new creation but which uses entirely the same packages as we used before.

I actually think the appearance is quite stylish.

We don't normally get comments on the posts because our posts are put out for comment first on other sites such as this one where they get massive engagement. I am sure that will build up over time.

A
_9. I can find no reference to a forthcoming book from Knopf by Conrad Murray._
You won't. Have you never heard of pen-names?

Have you anything else useful to ask or say??


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

Conrad.Murray said:


> _7. You are selling reviews with apparently no care for the ethical side of this._
> Loads of people provide review services, Kirkus, Foreword and the more dodgily named Kindle Book Reviews. We now have 140+ book reviewers each of which were had selected and provide wonderfully independent reviews.
> 
> The way our review service works is the author pays $70 for unlimited access to post their books to the reviews exchange and the marketing package that accompanies it. So any of those 140 can pick a title and review it. Books normally get three to five reviews which are shared under Creative Commons so they can be used elsewhere. The marketing package means they then commit to pay us a proportion of the sales we can be shown to make for them, In a recent cross-publisher promotion we did we got in excess of 2m eyeballs and have currently sold 40,000+ books.


I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

1. The author pays $70 to submit their book for reviews. They typically get 3-5 reviews. So in essence, the author pays $70 for 3-5 reviews?
2. You then take a percentage of any sales that you can show have resulted from those reviews?

Is that right?


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

Hi Bat Cauldron

Not quite. The reviews exchange is a package which enables you to submit a book for review like Net Galley.

That goes out to 142 reviewers currently. These are people we provide with their own blog free of charge. Typically 3-5, sometimes more, will decide to review. Nobody gets paid to review a book and they are all independent. 

The reviews are owned by the reviewer but are licensed under Creative Commons. You can decide which reviews you want to use or include. 

Reviews become part of the author promotion package which starts at $70. It is transactional so all fees are based on a commission of what you actually sell.

If you need to know more send me an email to [email protected]


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

Hi.

Thanks for clearing that up. One more question (in four movements) - how do you establish what sales have come about as a result of the reviews? Do you take a commission based on all sales? If so, for how long? The life of the book?

It's probably better to ask and answer any questions here to prevent any repetition from other KB members -- using up your time -- and to make sure everyone has visibility.

Thanks again for the response.


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

No problem.

It's not a review package. It's a marketing package.

A $70 submission gets you on the exchange. They may or may not review and you may or may not choose to use those reviews.

Reviews are provided under Creative Commons. What you use is up to you.

In respect of marketing we provide a page which confirms each sale we have delivered after it has occurred and trace these back to the original campaign so you only pay for what we sell. If you want how this works in detail I am happy to provide,


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## Amber Rose (Jul 25, 2014)

To me this seems to be a case of thou-protesting-too-much. 

I have no idea whether Bookmarq.net is a legitimate and ethical service, but I do think that if I was running a business like that, then I would go out of my way to market my own books through the channels that I am promising to market other people's books. So I would sell on Amazon, and show how brilliant I am at doing that. I would have a huge Twitter following, a successful FB page, tons of reviews and testimonials that can be verified etc. 

The beauty of online marketing/selling is that it can be quite transparent. For example, a lot of ppl on KBoards know that BKnights is - for the most part- a very good way of promoting books. It works so well, that people cannot shut up about it. For the time it does not work, there are no excuses made, and authors just accept what is. 

So maybe all you need is some legitimate clients to sing your praises here, and then we can all analyse those authors genres, rankings, trends, etc and draw our own conclusions.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Conrad,

we don't allow starting a new topic to continue a conversation in a locked topic--there's not much point to us locking a topic if we allow that.  We are in discussions about the now several bookmarque.net threads and your metadata thread on how best to proceed from here.  

EDIT:  Several threads have been merged while discussions continue.  Some posts will be pruned.

You're welcome to PM me if you have additional questions. 

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Conrad and Paige and other bookmarq.net staff--

You're welcome to promote your business and website here in the Writers' Cafe, but we ask that the same basic rules be followed as we have for authors in the Book Bazaar:  you may have one thread about your service and must post to it rather than start a new thread each time.  New threads about the service wil be removed.  Please bookmark this thread so that you can find it again to post to.  And, you may not make back-to-back posts to the thread within seven days.  All bookmarq.net staff will be considered one person for posting purposes--if any of you posts, all of you must wait seven days to post unless a non-bookmarq.net associate posts in the interim.  If someone responds (such as this post), you may reply but otherwise must wait seven days, thanks!

We anticipate unlocking this thread a bit later today after a final review.  Warning:  We expect civility on all sides.  Tough questions are appropriate and will be allowed to stand as long as they are civil.

EDIT:  Reopening thread.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Where do the audiences of these reviewers come from?  So you have a list of them?

A share in NetGalley is cheaper, and I can get dozens of reviews on blogs, Amazon, and Goodreads.


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## Conrad.Murray (Aug 1, 2014)

Amber Rose said:


> To me this seems to be a case of thou-protesting-too-much.
> 
> I have no idea whether Bookmarq.net is a legitimate and ethical service, but I do think that if I was running a business like that, then I would go out of my way to market my own books through the channels that I am promising to market other people's books. So I would sell on Amazon, and show how brilliant I am at doing that. I would have a huge Twitter following, a successful FB page, tons of reviews and testimonials that can be verified etc.


Amber Rose

My CV is fully available on LinkedIn and has been for the last few years. It includes a background going back 30 years which includes working for some major media brands including as a producer for the BBC and CNN and a solid unbroken history of 20+ years online marketing.

I invented a system for marketing Digital Products through Social Media around two years ago, set up a company, Loytech BV to sell it and successfully used it to promote bands in the music business and to get people to take up accounts in the gaming and gambling industry. Playtech which is the world's largest gaming business were our largest customer and we sold the IP on the gaming business to them earlier this year.

We already had a number of publisher clients who were using the system for promotion and continue to do so hence I formed bookmarq.net to deal with them in May. It essentially provides WordPress Hosting for writers but with a number of additional marketing tools available to them. I don't need to sell it - they come to us - usually referred by other writers or publishers who use and like the service. We currently host around 1400 author websites at $150 a year and 150+ reviewer websites (free). We provide gateways to other services such as cover design, editing, training etc which are doing well.

I have written a couple of digital marketing manuals which along with training courses sell to corporate clients at prices which wouldn't work on Amazon.

Frankly I couldn't give a toss about the number of followers the corporate has on Twitter or the "friends" we have on Facebook. I have run a campaign across both in the last month which has generated 2m eyeballs and 48,000 coupon redemptions on books so far but I wouldn't imagine anyone who looked at it or bought would have a clue about our involvement.

So far I have written two pieces on KB, one which was a formula which simplifies what you need to think about if you want to market books which proved so uncontroversial no-one commented on it for ten hours and a second on metadata which no one has managed to disagree with. Neither were sales pitches.

I have a few ideas which I am still formulating about book marketing which I think may well benefit some people but I am nervous about the future of a market where there seem to be more writers than readers.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I read your post, and the reason I didn't comment was because it has so little substance. It's full of generalities that everyone already knows and no one would disagree with. That doesn't mean that you have anything of value to offer. [edits because you edited]

No one here trusts you. Why don't you pick one author you think will be a good fit for your model, give him or her the works gratis, and then let them tell the rest of us the results? That would be worth a hundred hours of you trying to sell your services to us using vague terms that really don't much explain the how your service actually works.


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## Erin Satie (Mar 21, 2014)

The thing that I find really bizarre here is that you're using these really, really top-shelf boasts (Millions of eyes! Forty thousand copies! Marketing secrets people spend thousands of dollars to read!) and then trying to sell us on peanuts (A wordpress site! Cover art! 3-5 reviews!).

When I want a glass of water, I don't fill up my bathtub. When I want to set up a website using a really popular and accessible platform, I don't go hunting for a high-powered marketing guru. 

Though I have to say, the thing I find hardest to believe is the Knopf novel.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

*Let's sum things up about Bookmarq/Conrad Murray/Paige Doyle.*

1. Conrad Murray has lots and lots of important clients, but *he can't tell you who they are* and his work leaves no trace on the internet, other than posts he writes. Funny that.

2. Conrad Murray has a book coming out with Knopf next year. Or so he says, because there is *no mention of it anywhere on the internet*. He then tries to say it's written under a pen-name. How convenient.

3. Conrad Murray claims to be doing giant promotional campaigns for huge companies, *totally vague and unverifiable claims*, and yet he's here trying to hustle business for cheap Wordpress hosting. Seems odd, doesn't it?

4. PaigeDoyle (who doesn't seem to exist outside Conrad Murray's head) claims that Bookmarq have an "award-winning iRabbit Reader Multiplication system." Isn't it strange that such an acclaimed award-winning system which has had success in three different industries has - you guessed it! - left no trace on the internet.

5. All of the links PaigeDoyle shared above are *broken*, e.g. http://bookmarq.net/public-schools-and-the-great-war-the-generation-lost-by-anthony-seldon-and-david-walsh-2/ & http://bookmarq.net/why-bm-blog/ & http://bookmarq.net/marketing-packages-overview/ - not a great sign Bookmarq knows what it's doing. When you click on the bio for Paige Doyle - http://bookmarq.net/author/newpaige/ - *that link is also broken*. And you are supposed to pay these guys for web design/hosting?

6. As for the "services" that Bookmarq is selling (and touting here across numerous threads), let's take Cover Design as an example. Here's their page - http://bookmarq.net/self-publishing/professional-cover-design/ - Note that it *doesn't have one single example of a cover they have designed*, or any price at all. Serious red flags.

7. In case you think I'm cherry-picking, here's the page on print formatting. Again, *no prices*, and very shady looking: http://bookmarq.net/self-publishing/professional-book-production/

8. Again, their "Managed Book Marketing" page has *no prices for their services*. Or no examples of clients they have worked with, or case studies, or anything really except a load of generalized guff, and then a form where you fill out your contact details. Uber shady: http://bookmarq.net/marketing-services/

9. They actually provide a service which claims to help you find an agent. First they squeeze you with money providing a "critique" (although I don't know how Conrad Murray's supposed experience in data marketing qualifies him to know what agents are looking for). This critique costs $175 per 10,000 words. Then* they charge you $199 to write a query letter which goes to 10 agents*, and each additional agent is charged at $10 a pop. Then they hilariously claim to be able to represent you in negotiations and finally hammer out the contract, and for this service, you will pay a "Price related to value of contract." This is so, so dodgy. Read about it here: http://bookmarq.net/traditional-authors/

10. Bookmarq has a "Rights Reversion Management" program where (for a fee, but they don't say how much) they will get your rights back from your publisher - despite the fact that Conrad Murray or Paige Doyle aren't lawyers and don't seem to know anything about book contracts. *They will then republish the titles as e-books, and pay you 50% net*. Wow. Sign me up! http://bookmarq.net/traditional-authors/rights-reversion-management/

11. They claim to be "book marketing professionals" but *don't know the difference between a Facebook Profile and a Facebook Page*.

12. Conrad Murray claims to have years of marketing experience, but then *he names one of his products an iRabbit* (famous sex toy). Really? That's too funny.

Run away, people.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

And if that's not enough to convince you on what Conrad Murray is up to here, this is a brief history of his KBoards membership.

1. Joined August 1st.

2. Aug 2, posted to this cover design thread, offering his services: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191164.msg2698769.html#msg2698769

3. Aug 2, posted to this Createspace thread, offering his services: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191010.msg2698792.html#msg2698792

4. Aug 2, again touted for business in the cover design thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191164.msg2698836.html#msg2698836

5. Aug 3, pimped his services in an editing thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191044.msg2699482.html#msg2699482

6. Aug 6, started a thread on metadata, pimped his services at the end: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,188987.msg2702741.html#msg2702741

7. Aug 6, touted for business in a thread on pirates: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191739.msg2702761.html#msg2702761

8. Aug 6, promoted his social media expertise (LOL!) and touted for business in this thread on social media http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191370.msg2703131.html#msg2703131

9. Aug 6, again touted for business in that same thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,191370.msg2703244.html#msg2703244

I can keep going. Is there really any doubt about this guy and why he's here?


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Your prices for creating a query letter are extremely unethical never mind that you want a commission on the contract, and your "reversion rights management" is screamingly exploitative.

If you're not going to give someone on kboards the full treatment, why don't you at least outline what kind of campaign you've run on Facebook?  Just one campaign that you've run--who, how, what, and results.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Conrad.Murray said:


> I invented a system for marketing Digital Products through Social Media around two years ago, set up a company, Loytech BV to sell it and successfully used it to promote bands in the music business and to get people to take up accounts in the gaming and gambling industry. Playtech which is the world's largest gaming business were our largest customer and we sold the IP on the gaming business to them earlier this year.


Does this company have a website? The URL listed on Linkedin is loytech.com, but that domain is not active, and when you examine the history, it's clear that whoever registered that domain only registered it on September 2013 (in its current iteration). Your domain for your highly internet company was inactive between January 2012 and September 2013, when you claim to be in operation.

http://whoisrequest.org/history/loytech.com

If only there were a way to find out if Loytech as a company ever existed in the UK! It's not like companies have to be registered in the UK, or that registration information is public.

Oh. Wait. They do, and the registration is, and anyone can search for themselves here:
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo
and figure out that your massive company...was not, in fact, a registered company.



Conrad.Murray said:


> We already had a number of publisher clients who were using the system for promotion and continue to do so hence I formed bookmarq.net to deal with them in May. It essentially provides WordPress Hosting for writers but with a number of additional marketing tools available to them. I don't need to sell it - they come to us - usually referred by other writers or publishers who use and like the service. We currently host around 1400 author websites at $150 a year and 150+ reviewer websites (free). We provide gateways to other services such as cover design, editing, training etc which are doing well.


Wow. 1400 authors have switched hosting--and to you!--in three months! That's pretty impressive. Too bad you don't mention who they are. Naturally, as someone with a number of publisher clients, and as a legitimate enterprise that sold your IP to a huge company, you likely have a lawyer on retainer who advised you about things like your website terms and conditions: http://bookmarq.net/terms-and-conditions/

(Screenshot for posterity since these guys are scrubbing traces).









These appear to have been plagiarized directly from Bloomsbury's terms and conditions, changing only the name: https://www.writersandartists.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

And you've done so wholesale, even including terms like this:










where there are no biographies on your site.

I've been told to be "civil," but frankly, I'm not sure what that means in a case like this. Is it uncivil for me to call Connor Murray a "liar" when he has yet to make a verifiable claim, and not a single statement that he makes stands up to even the slightest scrutiny?

Is it uncivil for me to say that he is not running a legitimate business when his company is not registered, does not have a website record that tracks his claims, does not exist in the media in any form, has no verifiable clients or demonstrable successes, and plagiarizes its terms and conditions even when such plagiarism makes no sense?

Calling someone a "liar" and a "scammer" is surely uncivil when there is reasonable doubt. But _being_ a liar and a scammer is also uncivil, and when people are in fact liars and scammers, labeling them as such is a matter of fact.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

FWIW, legal documents aren't protected under copyright and can't be plagiarized.  But as for the rest.....


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I think David & Courtney have just schooled Conrad. *slow clap*


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

VMた said:


> FWIW, legal documents aren't protected under copyright and can't be plagiarized. But as for the rest.....


(a) Plagiarism and copyright violation are not the same thing. That is why I used the word "plagiarized" and not words like "pirated" or "infringed." Plagiarism is copying without attribution.

(b) I don't know where you're getting your information, and don't know the rule in the UK, but in the US, the author of a legal document absolutely has copyright in that legal document. Fair use usually allows the wide dissemination of some legal documents for noncommercial purposes, but this? No. [ETA 2: In the UK, legal documents are also copyrighted: http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/legal-documents-bound-by-rules-of-copyright/38484.article]

ETA:

(c) In this case, the reason I cite it is to demonstrate the ongoing illegitimacy of the company, and the legal status is irrelevant. If you're plagiarizing your T&C, and not customizing them to your site, it's almost certain that you don't have counsel on retainer, and you aren't the massive business you represent yourself to be.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2014)

VMた said:


> FWIW, legal documents aren't protected under copyright and can't be plagiarized. But as for the rest.....


Copyright infringement and plagiarism are actually two different things. For example, If I publish a version of Hamlet by William Shakespeare, there is no infringement because the work is in the public domain. But if I publish Hamlet and put MY name on it without any acknowledgement of the Bard, it is still plagiarism. Plagiarism is not a crime, but an ethical violation.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2014)

I have to say that this type of thread reminds me why I am so happy to have found these boards. 

While I am too poor to ever hand my hard earned pennies over to a company like this, plenty of other people will do so in the drive to become successful. 

It is great to know that rather than ignoring things like this, people here will check it out and let others know whether or not it is somewhat dubious...


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

Courtney Milan said:


> (b) I don't know where you're getting your information, and don't know the rule in the UK, but in the US, the author of a legal document absolutely has copyright in that legal document. Fair use usually allows the wide dissemination of some legal documents for noncommercial purposes, but this? No. [ETA 2: In the UK, legal documents are also copyrighted: http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/legal-documents-bound-by-rules-of-copyright/38484.article]


I was a copyright lawyer in London a while back - and, yes, copyright exists in legal documents.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Courtney Milan said:


> (a) Plagiarism and copyright violation are not the same thing. That is why I used the word "plagiarized" and not words like "pirated" or "infringed." Plagiarism is copying without attribution.
> 
> (b) I don't know where you're getting your information, and don't know the rule in the UK, but in the US, the author of a legal document absolutely has copyright in that legal document. Fair use usually allows the wide dissemination of some legal documents for noncommercial purposes, but this? No. [ETA 2: In the UK, legal documents are also copyrighted: http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/legal-documents-bound-by-rules-of-copyright/38484.article]
> 
> ...


Oh, interesting! In the US, they can't be, hence the existence of Doc Stock and similar sites.

Yes, of course, it still speaks to the size of the company and its likely accomplishments.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Frankly, I was turned off by the massive and continuing typos all over the site and the incorrect use of punctuation (by UK usage).  That shows me that the company isn't large enough to pay copyeditors or proofreaders for their own pages.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Thank you David G and Courtney for clarifying and shining some light on this dubious marketing offer posted here.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

VMた said:


> Oh, interesting! In the US, they can't be, hence the existence of Doc Stock and similar sites.
> 
> Yes, of course, it still speaks to the size of the company and its likely accomplishments.


Uh... no, legal documents in the US are still absolutely subject to copyright. They're works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

maybe not get bogged down in discussing copyright and plagiarism  -- or, if you must, take it to a different thread.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks for the detailed list, David. Seems like some changes are being made to the site (some places have prices, others have been removed, so far as I can tell).

I had a long bit here, but decided to just say thanks, but no thanks. I've seen stuff like this before, and I'm not buying it.


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