# The repercussions of discussing reviews



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

No doubt about it, discussing reviews in the forum seems to lead to more harm than good. There are currently two threads sitting on page 1 that both more or less complain about negative reviews. Since both threads have been posted, I've watched the 'likes' increase on the negative reviews, thus making the negative reviews more visible, and have also noticed that one author's response to a negative review is getting 'unhelpful' votes.

It's becoming increasingly clear that, unless a negative review is undoubtedly harassing in nature, it's best to absorb the blow and move on.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

You know, one of those posters insisted that he really wanted to be discussing some aspect of literary technique that he felt most reviewers weren't reading deeply enough to perceive or appreciate. I would say that if a review stimulates you to try and start a discussion like that, the best course is to simply start a discussion about that topic and not even mention that it was sparked by a review. No matter what you say about why you are posting, there are going to be lurkers here on this extremely public forum who will read your post as whining about a review you disagree with.

Then some of those folks will trot right over to your book's page and upvote that review.

tl;dr: If you want to talk about a topic, talk about that topic, not about a review.


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

I WILL NOT discuss reviews online. After some of the threads I've seen at WC, the behavior has become a major turn-off, and also, I've seen the repercussions of it. As an author, complaining about a review on a public forum is one of the dumbest things I could do.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm not even comfortable replying to the review on Amazon. I've replied to positive ones because I think it's about the only real way to personally thank the reader. You don't know who they are when they buy the book but if they leave a review you've got something to go on. Negative ones I just ignore. No sense in calling attention to them.


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

There is a newspaper article running around that indicates that negative reviews are GOOD for the product (whatever that is) and that it helps sell the brand.

I wouldn't go that far, but the negative views CAN and DO cause an opposite reaction in reasonable people. Every one is entitled to an opinion on a book, a plot or character, if they are polite about it and not personal, then other people will accept it as an 'opinion' and move on.

The rule is _read them privately, ignore them publicly._ and if there is worthy advice -_ 'follow it but never acknowledge it'_


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Like Ann has posted many times this is a public forum.  Anything you say about others can and will be used against you.  Especially when talking about others opinions.
The top story on yahoo was interesting this morning.  Apparently Kim Novak got some verbal jabs about her Oscar appearance.  She went and hid in her house for a few days.  And is now boo-hooing to the media about others bad behaivor.  Hey you put yourself in the public eye, the public is entitled to their opinion.  

Please think before you speak, a shot foot hurts for many years.  Trust me on that.  
Do not shoot yourself in the foot.  Don't let anyone else shoot you in the foot either.  If someone has a gun and is arguing with someone else get out of the room.


----------



## Joshua Dalzelle (Jun 12, 2013)

I agree with Mandy 100%... I've never seen anything positive come from any of those threads. I've had readers ask me about things I've posted here via PM or email so I know that this forum (and others) gets browsed by readers and potential readers. Complaining about bad reviews seems not only amateurish but also invites a pile on effect.

I go so far as to not really even read the reviews anymore. Unless I see a trend in the aggregate score that would indicate a serious problem I need to address I leave it alone. I also don't want reviews, good or bad, to inadvertently affect the direction I'm taking in the next book.


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Joshua Dalzelle said:


> I also don't want reviews, good or bad, to inadvertently affect the direction I'm taking in the next book.


I agree with this totally.


----------



## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

Before complaining to anyone but a therapist about a negative review, I'd encourage one to understand the Streisand Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect). There's an order of magnitude involved in visibility once you start yammering on about such things, and no good can come of it.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Complaining about reviews is Author Behaving Badly material. And that is never good. 

The only thing to do when you get a bad review (which isn't even FOR you, it's for other readers), is keep writing. Do your venting, if you must, in private. Writing is a solitary pursuit, but publishing is public. Very, very public now we have the Internet.


----------



## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

I only reply to reviews if it contains a factual error or the reviewer asks a question. I never argue with opinions.


----------



## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

> I go so far as to not really even read the reviews anymore. Unless I see a trend in the aggregate score that would indicate a serious problem I need to address I leave it alone. I also don't want reviews, good or bad, to inadvertently affect the direction I'm taking in the next book.


While I agree that you should never engage on a negative review, under any circumstances, I wouldn't go so far as ignoring reviews. I like to incorporate all feedback into my next book. Gotta give the customers what they want, you know?


----------



## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Mandy said:


> No doubt about it, discussing reviews in the forum seems to lead to more harm than good.


No question about it.



Mandy said:


> There are currently two threads sitting on page 1 that both more or less complain about negative reviews. Since both threads have been posted, I've watched the 'likes' increase on the negative reviews, thus making the negative reviews more visible, and have also noticed that one author's response to a negative review is getting 'unhelpful' votes.


No surprise at all.



Mandy said:


> It's becoming increasingly clear that, unless a negative review is undoubtedly harassing in nature, it's best to absorb the blow and move on.


This - undoubtedly.


----------



## J.A. Sutherland (Apr 1, 2014)

ThePete said:


> While I agree that you should never engage on a negative review, under any circumstances, I wouldn't go so far as ignoring reviews. I like to incorporate all feedback into my next book. Gotta give the customers what they want, you know?


See, that there's the 64,000-copy question, isn't it? Would you be giving the customer what they want?

If you sell 1000 copies and get 5 reviews with the same complaint ... how many of the silent 9995 are the negative reviews really indicative of? It's entirely possible to change something that most people actually liked, but were silent about.


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Hah! I just realised that this thread is complaining about complaining about reviews.


----------



## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

TobiasRoote said:


> Hah! I just realised that this thread is complaining about complaining about reviews.


I'm thinking of starting a thread to complain about the thread complaining about complaining about reviews.

Any takers for starting one after that to complain about my thread complaining about complaining about complaining about reviews?


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Lynn McNamee said:


> I'm thinking of starting a thread to complain about the thread complaining about complaining about reviews.
> 
> Any takers for starting one after that to complain about my thread complaining about complaining about complaining about reviews?


Somebody needs to start a spreadsheet for scheduling these.


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

TobiasRoote said:


> Hah! I just realised that this thread is complaining about complaining about reviews.


Are you complaining about my complaining about the complaints over reviewers complaining?  Eh, I have no real dog in the fight. I'm a reader who hangs out in WC because the main part of KB is a ghost town until the next great Kindle is released.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

If I didn't snark when people said dumb things (like trying to call me for using a word completely correctly) or the bizarre trends (EVERYTHING IS TOO SHORT), my existing fanbase would lose all respect for me. Same if I didn't cop to actual mistakes (like using 'deign' wrong often and freely) then snark about it.

My folks are millenials for the most part and snark is just a way of life.

Someone petty enough to go to try and 'hurt' me with upvotes and crap on a review site deserves a little taste of the back of my hand anyway. They want to go to war, I'm ready to play. Not this passive aggressive 'anonymous economic sabotage' BS either. I'm not that kind of coward.

To quote Malcolm Reynolds, "When I kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be standing, and You'll be armed."


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I generally mock my hate mail publicly, but I don't post it. Okay, I did tweet about the "pen of Satan" one because, let's all be honest, that's going to be the name of my memoirs. 

My bad reviews don't really bother me. My sexist, racist, anti-LGBT, and general bigoted reviews super bug me. Those I have no problem ranting about those.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

cinisajoy said:


> Like Ann has posted many times this is a public forum. Anything you say about others can and will be used against you. Especially when talking about others opinions.
> The top story on yahoo was interesting this morning. Apparently Kim Novak got some verbal jabs about her Oscar appearance. She went and hid in her house for a few days. And is now boo-hooing to the media about others bad behaivor. Hey you put yourself in the public eye, the public is entitled to their opinion.
> 
> Please think before you speak, a shot foot hurts for many years. Trust me on that.
> Do not shoot yourself in the foot. Don't let anyone else shoot you in the foot either. If someone has a gun and is arguing with someone else get out of the room.


An elephant repeatedly stomping on your foot is something you're likely to remember for years to come as well.

Yes, it's a strange phenomenon. When the career of an artist is just taking off they jump naked before any camera in sight, just to get noticed. Once famous, they go on pearl-clutching diatribes against the press not respecting their privacy.

I think for reviews it is somewhat different. Yes, authors put themselves out there from the moment they publish. But so do reviewers from the moment they put their reviews on the Internet ("where anyone can see them and where they stay for ever and ever").
And I know the meme that gets parroted over and over. Reviews are intended for readers, not for writers. Intention doesn't count on the Internet. It's like shouting on a public square, "Hey, keep this a secret, but..." Well, guess what, my intention is for my books to be read by readers who will like them.
Yet, people who don't like them insist on reading them. 

Sound advice though.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Well the thing is, no one respects entertainers except people who want to _be_ entertainers or deeply devoted fans.

Mostly, we're invisible. Are worst, people feel like they can treat us like furniture--and that includes expecting us to take any an all abuse in silence. Because we aren't really people. We're big dumb things that spit out diversion every once in a while.


----------



## Joshua Dalzelle (Jun 12, 2013)

ThePete said:


> While I agree that you should never engage on a negative review, under any circumstances, I wouldn't go so far as ignoring reviews. I like to incorporate all feedback into my next book. Gotta give the customers what they want, you know?


To a point... I don't want to change directions at the whim of every review in an effort to please everybody. I do get a lot of feedback through social media about ideas or things they wish would happen and I listen to those closely. Anybody who would go through the trouble to seek me out to give feedback is likely a reader that's in my target audience and I'd be stupid to ignore them. Especially if it's a good idea.


----------



## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

WC=Writers' Cafe

What forum are we talking about= this one.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

As a reviewer, I would bet good money I have been downvoted more than once.  Hey if you put a book in humor, do not talk about domestic violence for the first three chapters. (mommy blogger wrote a book)
If you are trying to get a movie made about a guy's life, please proofread your book and get the facts right before hitting publish.  (So yea commenter I am an overly-critical critic when it comes to non-fiction)

I would also bet money that some of my opinions here have not made me real popular.
But you want my philosophy, if someone doesn't like me, the choices I made or my opinions; that is entirely their problem and they have to live with it.

Now as far as fiction reviews go: I only review them if I have read the entire book although I do have a special shelf at goodreads so I know not to try the ones I could not finish again.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> *Hey if you put a book in humor, do not talk about domestic violence for the first three chapters. (mommy blogger wrote a book*)


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I try to always reply to review who ask me a question. Like, WTH is a tuckamore. Perhaps my favourite review question ever by a fellow KBer.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I try to always reply to review who ask me a question. Like, WTH is a tuckamore. Perhaps my favourite review question ever by a fellow KBer.


now I am curious as to what a tuckamore is.


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Oh... See I told you they were stupid questions.
> 
> So, talking about negative reviews HERE causes more negative reaction? Does that mean that other writers are doing it?


No questions are stupid questions (that is, unless you ask me when I'm gonna get off my rear-end and fold that mountain of laundry...). But yeah, unfortunately complaining or supposed bragging will often make one a target for retaliation, most often by up-voting negative reviews so that the reviews are more visible.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Tuckamores are fir trees in Newfoundland, Canada that grow with the wind. The wind is so pervasive along the coasts that forests grow sideways. I've seen them where 6 foot trees are no higher than a couple feet off the ground, and just keep growing sideways.


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Really? That is so disturbing. I have no reason to believe that person is reading this forum, or googling my name, or anything like that... But are we talking about other writers from here doing something like that just to be... whatever that would be?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Really? That is so disturbing. I have no reason to believe that person is reading this forum, or googling my name, or anything like that... But are we talking about other writers from here doing something like that just to be... whatever that would be?


People have read my posts here and have googled my name with things like Krista D. Ball, a-hole from kindleboards.

No, really. There are screenshots.


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


>


Good grief, that gif made me laugh loud enough that the kids shot me baffled looks. If only one could use that gif on Facebook...


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Really? That is so disturbing. I have no reason to believe that person is reading this forum, or googling my name, or anything like that... But are we talking about other writers from here doing something like that just to be... whatever that would be?


Authors start threads here to complain about reviews they don't like, apparently in the belief that there aren't thousands of people who read this forum beyond authors and beyond those who actively post. Then inevitably, some of those silent watchers decide to teach said author a lesson.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Yes, it's a strange phenomenon. When the career of an artist is just taking off they jump naked before any camera in sight, just to get noticed. Once famous, they go on pearl-clutching diatribes against the press not respecting their privacy.


Very well said!
That is all.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Really? That is so disturbing. I have no reason to believe that person is reading this forum, or googling my name, or anything like that... But are we talking about other writers from here doing something like that just to be... whatever that would be?


Here is the thing and I do believe I said this last night too. 
You could write the greatest story ever told and every reader will interpret it a bit differently. Just because reader x saw one thing does not mean that reader y did not read it another way.

I know of one book where there was a scene that two readers did not like. 
One reader thought the male character was a total and complete jerk totally showing off his money. The other reader thought the female character was being martyrish because she had less than the others.

Both readers were talking about the exact same scene in the book.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> People have read my posts here and have googled my name with things like Krista D. Ball, a-hole from kindleboards.
> 
> No, really. There are screenshots.


This made me laugh. End result: I'm going to be reading Spirits Rising while the kiddie naps later.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

SevenDays said:


> This made me laugh. End result: I'm going to be reading Spirits Rising while the kiddie naps later.


Ha! Well, to be fair, I am an a-hole 37% of the time. Julie did a survey.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Oh... See I told you they were stupid questions.
> 
> So, talking about negative reviews HERE causes more negative reaction? Does that mean that other writers are doing it?


Maybe. Hard to say. I suspect there are more eyes on these forums than writers posting them, which would potentially include (your) readers.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> So, talking about negative reviews HERE causes more negative reaction?


Yes! That is exactly what we are talking about. Delete your complaints about that review now!



Stephen T. Harper said:


> Does that mean that other writers are doing it?


No. The KBoards Writers' Cafe is a PUBLIC FORUM. Anyone and everyone can read whatever you post here and your posts are searchable by Google, Yahoo, Bing, and all the other search engines. *Posting here is like being on TV.* Your best behavior is advisable. Anything you say here can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion.

Do. Not. Complain. About. Reviews.
Not here, nor anywhere else in public.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> No. The KBoards Writers' Cafe is a PUBLIC FORUM. Anyone and everyone can read whatever you post here and your posts are searchable by Google, Yahoo, Bing, and all the other search engines. *Posting here is like being on TV.* Your best behavior is advisable. Anything you say here can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion.
> 
> Do. Not. Complain. About. Reviews.
> Not here, nor anywhere else in public.


Repeating for emphasis. *This cannot be stressed enough.*


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Do. Not. Complain. About. Reviews.
> Not here, nor anywhere else in public.


^^^^THIS^^^^


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't get the wrong idea, Stephen. This is a wonderful community and there's a huge wealth of information available to anyone who wants it. It's just not advisable to come here and vent about negative reviews as there's always the risk of backlash. I suspect the backlash comes from a mix of readers and authors; neither "side" is more to blame. If you need to vent about a bad review, it's best to confide in a couple of good author friends as opposed to posting complaints on a public message board. But by and large, this is a great community for both authors and readers!


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> You could write the greatest story ever told and every reader will interpret it a bit differently. Just because reader x saw one thing does not mean that reader y did not read it another way.


^^This. All this. Always this.

First (wrong) Impressions is a modern adaptation of Pride and Prejudice, set in a homeless drop in centre. A lot of you know that I ran the meal program at a homeless agency for three years. I wanted to address things like race, status, and money, and I choose to do it within the confines of Pride and Prejudice.

Some readers saw nothing more than a book cluttered with social topics and complained that Jane Austen never discussed those things. Some readers felt it was preachy. Still others felt I had a liberal agenda and accused me of being a democrat (I'm Canadian...). Still others were offended that there were gay people in the book.

And then other readers loved the social topics. Some didn't even notice and thought the book was hilarious. Others cried and sobbed during the book. People emailed me in tears asking how they could help in their local communities. Others emailed me saying they hadn't laughed that hard in years.

It was like every single one read a different book. Because, in a way, each one of them did.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Mandy said:


> Don't get the wrong idea, Stephen. This is a wonderful community and there's a huge wealth of information available to anyone who wants it. It's just not advisable to come here and vent about negative reviews as there's a always the risk of backlash. I suspect the backlash comes from a mix of readers and authors; neither "side" is more to blame. If you need to vent about a bad review, it's best to confide in a couple of good author friends as opposed to posting complaints on a public message board. But by and large, this is a great community for both authors and readers!


This will never be a wonderful community so long as I'm here.

*angry kitty glare*


----------



## Michael McClung (Feb 12, 2014)

I Never never never ever never complain about any review ever. You can call me a vile, crack-addled misogynist who doesn't know which end of the crayon to hold and I'll be happy. The enemy of every writer is not a negative review. The enemy of every writer is obscurity. Any review, even a negative one, is another small victory.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Ha! Well, to be fair, I am an a-hole 37% of the time. Julie did a survey.


Ponders this...


[fangirl]And I picked up _First Impressions_ the other day when I was checking out your signature for actual novels.[/fangirl]

Betsy


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> Well, those things are certainly true. Now I'm beginning to regret deleting the comment because this conversation seems to painting it in a far worse light than merited. I was sympathizing with any writer's urge to correct the record when someone says something that isn't true. I mentioned no names, etc. Nor do I expect everyone to like the same things. I'm certainly not questioning where sincere reviews come from.


Well, to help adjust your lighting, let me tell you that the author who posted a thread in which he referred rather condescendingly to a negative review on his book now has seen that negative review upvoted 25 times. (Before he posted the thread, it had none.)

This means that the bad review is now sorted at the very top, and likely will remain so.


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

LeeBee said:


> Well, to help adjust your lighting, let me tell you that the author who posted a thread in which he referred rather condescendingly to a negative review on his book now has seen that negative review upvoted 25 times. (Before he posted the thread, it had none.)
> 
> This means that the bad review is now sorted at the very top, and likely will remain so.


Yep. This is exactly what I was referring to in my original post. The negative review in question continues to be up-voted.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ponders this...
> 
> 
> [fangirl]And I picked up _First Impressions_ the other day when I was checking out your signature for actual novels.[/fangirl]
> ...


You should just sign up for my mailing list, so that you know when actual novels are published. 

Just a heads up: if unnecessary swearing bugs you, that book is sooooo going to bug you. I swore _a lot_ in that book


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You should just sign up for my mailing list, so that you know when actual novels are published.
> 
> Just a heads up: if unnecessary swearing bugs you, that book is sooooo going to bug you. I swore _a lot_ in that book


Signing up for your mailing list would only help me if I actually looked at my email.  Edit: I did just think to ask Amazon to notify me when you have new books out. Peridoically I look through all my Amazon emails to make sure I haven't missed something important.

Unnecessary swearing doesn't bug me at all. I swear unnecessarily all the time.  Just not on KBoards. Sometimes I swear as I read KB, but not on KB. A lot when I'm watching CNN.

Betsy


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I sometimes feel like, someone's watching me! http://www.kboards.com/live/

...like 638 guests


----------



## Mandy (Dec 27, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Unnecessary swearing doesn't bug me at all. I swear unnecessarily all the time.  Just not on KBoards. Sometimes I swear as I read KB, but not on KB.
> 
> Betsy


Who's brave enough to chase Betsy with the cattle prod?!


----------



## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Just a heads up: if unnecessary swearing bugs you, that book is sooooo going to bug you. I swore _a lot_ in that book


Moving it up on my reading queue............


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Mandy said:


> Who's brave enough to chase Betsy with the cattle prod?!


We'd have to pry it out of her hands, first!


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Mandy said:


> Who's brave enough to chase Betsy with the cattle prod?!


I think Ann is willing.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I sometimes  always feel like, somebody's watching me! (and I have no privacy!) http://www.kboards.com/live/
> 
> ...like 638 guests


There, fixed that for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGPlCLf9AZ8


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

There was a big post on another forum about responding to reviews, by people who were saying they do and it works well. I believe for some people it has, but as a reader, I'd hate it. And talking about reviews, others are right, never seems to end well. I wrote a blog post at the time about responding which could easily be about discussing reviews as well. (http://www.rosalindjames.com/why-i-dont-respond-to-reviews/, if anyone is interested in my pearls of wisdom on the subject.) The bit that I keep remembering is this one:

"I would like to project the image (even if it's aspirational!) of somebody who is secure in her success and isn't anxiously looking at what everyone said about her today."


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> There was a big post on another forum about responding to reviews, by people who were saying they do and it works well. I believe for some people it has, but as a reader, I'd hate it. And talking about reviews, others are right, never seems to end well. I wrote a blog post at the time about responding which could easily be about discussing reviews as well. (http://www.rosalindjames.com/why-i-dont-respond-to-reviews/, if anyone is interested in my pearls of wisdom on the subject.) The bit that I keep remembering is this one:
> 
> "I would like to project the image (even if it's aspirational!) of somebody who is secure in her success and isn't anxiously looking at what everyone said about her today."


Now Rosalind, I thought you had a wombat butt.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Now Rosalind, I thought you had a wombat butt.


Yes, it's armor-plated and repels all incoming dingoes. Alas, the skin that normally faces the world is woefully thin.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Moving it up on my reading queue............


I knew we were soul mates


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I did just think to ask Amazon to notify me when you have new books out.


I keep forgetting that thing exists.


----------



## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Okay, I did tweet about the "pen of Satan" one because, let's all be honest, that's going to be the name of my memoirs.


If someone called me the "pen of Satan," I would have it made into one of the scripty necklaces and would wear it every day.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I keep forgetting that thing exists.


Me, too...and it wasn't that easy to find.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> A lot when I'm watching CNN.


This needs a like button.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Nashira said:


> If someone called me the "pen of Satan," I would have it made into one of the scripty necklaces and would wear it every day.


It came during a week where I had constant emails telling me how I was going to burn in hell, how I was a horrible person, and all that. On top of that, I had several emails a day telling me how the book had touched them because they'd been homeless (god, there were so many of these) and I cried a lot during those first couple of weeks. The book was selling at a stunning rate (for me), and I was getting these hate-filled, racism, bigoted emails...and then these heartbreaking, heartwrenching emails on top of it.

And in the midst of all that, I got the "You have written this with the pen of Satan."

And for some reason, it cheered me up so much.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> Yes, it's armor-plated and repels all incoming dingoes. Alas, the skin that normally faces the world is woefully thin.


LOL. Insert pro-mooning-the-world sentiment here.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It came during a week where I had constant emails telling me how I was going to burn in hell, how I was a horrible person, and all that. On top of that, I had several emails a day telling me how the book had touched them because they'd been homeless (god, there were so many of these) and I cried a lot during those first couple of weeks. The book was selling at a stunning rate (for me), and I was getting these hate-filled, racism, bigoted emails...and then these heartbreaking, heartwrenching emails on top of it.
> 
> And in the midst of all that, I got the "You have written this with the pen of Satan."
> 
> And for some reason, it cheered me up so much.


Now you've piqued my interest. What exactly did you do to anger so many people?


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Just as an aside, Jay Lake somehow got wind of a post I made dissecting the first Clockwork Earth book. He linked it simply with a brief description plus 'Heh'.

I honestly don't know if he took it well or not. It kind of bothers me because I actually didn't hate the book, it went hand-in-hand with the topic of the week which... wasn't flattering. Frankly, he probably should have excoriated me.

On the other hand, I crack on GRRM all the time and he hasn't linked me once.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Now you've piqued my interest. What exactly did you do to anger so many people?


I adapted Jane Austen's pride and joy, Pride and Prejudice. Instead of making it the standard tale of Lizzy marrying Darcy, I addressed the social issues that were present in Austen's book, too, but that perhaps a lot of modern audiences don't always pick up on. Further, Darcy's sister was bisexual, Charlotte Lucas became a gay Lucas Charlotte, and there were brown people in the book. There was no slut-shaming of Lydia, all of the blame was put on George's shoulders (in a way, I always felt this was truer to Austen's story). Also, people swore.

I also dealt with the realities of working at a homeless agency that relies on church money to operate, which offended a lot of people - like, hordes of them - because I was basically calling them to task for their own actions. I insulted a lot of people in my commentary about the operations of such facilities.

And, of course, the gays. The gays were offensive. So very, very offensive. Because they were gay.

I though I knew what I was getting myself into when I wrote the book. Now, I'm glad I didn't. I fear I might have held back and cheapened the story.


----------



## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> I know of one book where there was a scene that two readers did not like.
> One reader thought the male character was a total and complete jerk totally showing off his money. The other reader thought the female character was being martyrish because she had less than the others.
> 
> Both readers were talking about the exact same scene in the book.


I had to boost this. Once I've posted a crit at CritiqueCircle, I like to go back and read what others have posted about the same material and I am often floored by the varied interpretations of story. I'm finally coming around to the idea that no one can please everyone and I have to focus on listening when multiple people point out something I was not able to make clear.

Edited for clarity.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Nashira said:


> I had to boost this. Once I've posted a crit at CritiqueCircle, I like to go back and read what others have posted about the same material and I am often floored by the varied interpretations of story. I have a very thin skin, but I'm finally coming around to the idea that I can't please everyone and I don't want to.


You'll never please everyone...and you'll never, ever, EVER please everyone on CC. Trust me


----------



## Guest (Apr 18, 2014)

ThePete said:


> While I agree that you should never engage on a negative review, under any circumstances, I wouldn't go so far as ignoring reviews. I like to incorporate all feedback into my next book. Gotta give the customers what they want, you know?


Yep, I agree.


----------



## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> Yep, I agree.


Same, but I'd say the same for positive reviews, too (not just negative ones).

Reviews aren't directed at the author. If they respond, it's kind of like butting in on a conversation. Though, by all means read them and learn from them what you can.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Krista,
You just made a sale.  The pen of satan made me do it.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I though I knew what I was getting myself into when I wrote the book. Now, I'm glad I didn't. I fear I might have held back and cheapened the story.


Hm. I guess whether you agree with the approach or not, this is a fantastic viewpoint on catering to an audience. I wrote my books for my wife to read. She was my intended audience so it doesn't really bother me that some people don't like it or it doesn't really sell too well (though I wouldn't mind sales... really... I wouldn't...).


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Krista,
> You just made a sale. The pen of satan made me do it.


Ha. Yes, the pen of Satan is strong with this one.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Daniel Dennis said:


> Hm. I guess whether you agree with the approach or not, this is a fantastic viewpoint on catering to an audience. I wrote my books for my wife to read. She was my intended audience so it doesn't really bother me that some people don't like it or it doesn't really sell too well (though I wouldn't mind sales... really... I wouldn't...).


Interestingly enough, I wrote the book for the literary crowd, none of whom read the book because adapting Austen is "tacky." I had no idea there was a massive adaptation, sequel, and what-if crowd. No freaking clue. So here are all of these books, hundreds of them, all with Lizzy and Darcy quite funny and uplifting romance stories...and then there is mine.

Yeah. I'm so glad I didn't do market research for that book. So glad.


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Yeah. I'm so glad I didn't do market research for that book. So glad.


I didn't do any either. My first 5-star review compared what I wrote to Wool and Silo. It bothered me for a bit because I (stupidly) believed the idea was somewhat original. I looked at it like it had already been done and that I somehow failed. Now I look at the review and see it as a badge of honor.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Krista D. Ball said:


> And in the midst of all that, I got the "You have written this with the pen of Satan."


Did Satan ever ask for his pen back?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Nashira said:


> If someone called me the "pen of Satan," I would have it made into one of the scripty necklaces and would wear it every day.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Did Satan ever ask for his pen back?


Of course nope. Satan is afraid of me, as she should be.


----------



## L. L. Fine (Dec 29, 2013)

I think bad reviews are part of the game. They can be funny, too. I got a 1 star badview saying that I killed a cat in the book and as a cat lover the reviewer had to make a stand. Well, my four cats are laughing till this day.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

L. L. Fine said:


> I think bad reviews are part of the game. They can be funny, too. I got a 1 star badview saying that I killed a cat in the book and as a cat lover the reviewer had to make a stand. Well, my four cats are laughing till this day.


BUT . . . . s/he has a perfect right to that point of view. You don't know where s/he was coming from. Maybe s/he knows somebody who killed cats for fun, rather than as a plot point, and knows that person to be sadistic and dangerous. Maybe his/her cat was one that the person targeted and so you struck a really bad chord.

So, rather than finding it funny -- since you obviously have your own cats and don't hold any malice towards them as a species -- maybe better to realize that's just where s/he is and not laugh at him/her but just take it as written and move on.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I _so_ want to steal "the pen of Satan", but I'm afraid of the Hello Vampire Kitty. 

You should really have that line in your signature. And I second having a necklace made.


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I think your pretty awesome Krista. 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


----------



## Daniel Dennis (Mar 3, 2014)

Agreed. The title is worth having that rating. 

Sent from the back of a white CIA van using Tapatalk. Please help!


----------



## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> Same, but I'd say the same for positive reviews, too (not just negative ones).
> 
> Reviews aren't directed at the author. If they respond, it's kind of like butting in on a conversation. Though, by all means read them and learn from them what you can.


This is true a thousand times over. Especially the part about learning from reviews. While it would be great if every review I got was five star, that's not reality. I've actually learned a lot from most of the critiques on my reviews. I take note of what people say they love about my books, and I take note of common complaints about my writing style - if more than one person is bringing it up, they very likely have a point. My writing has improved significantly because I've paid attention to my reviews.

I do get ticked off hen I get reviews that are factually wrong, or reviews that seem as if they're drive-by reviews from rival authors in my genre, but those reviews are few and far between.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> BUT . . . . s/he has a perfect right to that point of view. You don't know where s/he was coming from. Maybe s/he knows somebody who killed cats for fun, rather than as a plot point, and knows that person to be sadistic and dangerous. Maybe his/her cat was one that the person targeted and so you struck a really bad chord.
> 
> So, rather than finding it funny -- since you obviously have your own cats and don't hold any malice towards them as a species -- maybe better to realize that's just where s/he is and not laugh at him/her but just take it as written and move on.


Totally. A lot of people don't like to have animals hurt or killed in books. When Changes by Jim Butcher came out, I was online chatting with folks and everyone was far more worried about the damn cat in the story than anything else. Like, buildings are burning down, people are dying, and we (myself included) were OMG THE CAT.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

L. L. Fine said:


> I think bad reviews are part of the game. They can be funny, too. I got a 1 star badview saying that I killed a cat in the book and as a cat lover the reviewer had to make a stand. Well, my four cats are laughing till this day.


I remember reading (in On Writing, I think it was) that Stephen King was lambasted over the killing of a dog in The Dead Zone.


----------



## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> BUT . . . . s/he has a perfect right to that point of view. You don't know where s/he was coming from. Maybe s/he knows somebody who killed cats for fun, rather than as a plot point, and knows that person to be sadistic and dangerous. Maybe his/her cat was one that the person targeted and so you struck a really bad chord.
> 
> So, rather than finding it funny -- since you obviously have your own cats and don't hold any malice towards them as a species -- maybe better to realize that's just where s/he is and not laugh at him/her but just take it as written and move on.


I understand that. I am very sensitive to anything about cruelty to animals. I would be tempted to deduct stars from a review if the author was killing off domestic animals in the story. I don't object if the character kills a deer to eat or something like that, but I can't stand reading about a cat or dog or horse being killed. It makes me feel so bad that I get distracted from the rest of the story.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Bluebonnet said:


> I understand that. I am very sensitive to anything about cruelty to animals. I would be tempted to deduct stars from a review if the author was killing off domestic animals in the story. I don't object if the character kills a deer to eat or something like that, but I can't stand reading about a cat or dog or horse being killed. It makes me feel so bad that I get distracted from the rest of the story.


And I think that's a completely valid response. And if it means you grade a story at 1 star and write a review saying that's what you didn't like about it, that's a valid review.

So, how would you feel if you found a board where someone was talking about how they are laughing at the reviewer who doesn't like their book because in it, a cat got killed? Not probably inclined to look kindly on that book, for sure, and possibly not on that author -- or any others who are laughing with him/her. You may even intellectually understand that it's a plot point and doesn't mean the author is some sadistic animal hater. But the fact that people are LAUGHING at your response as though it isn't valid is pretty hurtful, I'd guess.

And with that, we've circled back to the title of the thread: the repercussions of discussing reviews. It's just NOT smart on a PUBLIC board.

Look, I get it. I work in a service type industry. I don't get along perfectly with everyone and, as in any other job, there are frustrations. Sometimes venting is needed. But I don't and won't discuss anyone's foibles or what I perceive as their inability to 'get it' here. It's absolutely not likely to make me look good. Because, it IS possible that one of my clients (or a higher up in the company) could wander in here, recognize my name (I'm not particularly hidden) and realize I'm talking about THEM! Or even, just realize that I have no qualms about making fun, in public of my clients -- even if it's anonymously. A client who sees that is probably not a client for very long. And that's probably the least worst thing that could happen depending on how far I went with my venting.

On a related topic: kboards have not, in the past, forbidden such discussions. But almost every time a thread starts with someone commenting, however mildly, on a review -- good or bad -- someone points out that it's NOT smart and this is a PUBLIC board etc., etc., etc. And lately, there have been multiple calls by members to NOT allow such threads. Our position has been: it's your book, it's your risk and we're not going to stop you, even if we think it's not wise. We'll lock threads at your request in these cases, and may consider deleting them. We're all about letting you all discuss what you want as long as it's done with civility and courtesy. Maybe it is time for kboards to take the stance that we do not want our members to be targeted and so we're not going to allow threads that could make you a target.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm personally suspicious of people who say they like my books.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I must say I agree with Ann.


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

People are entitled to their opinion. Doesn't mean its right though. 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Maybe it is time for kboards to take the stance that we do not want our members to be targeted and so we're not going to allow threads that could make you a target.


About a quarter of me agrees, but the rest of me feels like this is grownups we're talking about. And if they want to shoot themselves in the foot they only have themselves to blame, same as any of us does in any public place (online or off).

If you choose to criticize readers and reviewers publicly, then you must accept responsibility for what follows.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

SevenDays said:


> About a quarter of me agrees, but the rest of me feels like this is grownups we're talking about. And if they want to shoot themselves in the foot they only have themselves to blame, same as any of us does in any public place (online or off).
> 
> If you choose to criticize readers and reviewers publicly, then you must accept responsibility for what follows.


And that's why we've not acted so far. 

The other side of the coin, though, is we want to keep kboards a 'go to' place for good, civil discussion and information. And we do NOT want it to become known as that place where people blab and then get keelhauled by the internet masses for comments they make, however well intentioned (or at least, not ill-intentioned) at the time. 

It's a puzzle.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> And that's why we've not acted so far.
> 
> The other side of the coin, though, is we want to keep kboards a 'go to' place for good, civil discussion and information. And we do NOT want it to become known as that place where people blab and then get keelhauled by the internet masses for comments they make, however well intentioned (or at least, not ill-intentioned) at the time.
> 
> It's a puzzle.


I totally get it.

People, eh? We're so pesky sometimes.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

I think that a big source of confusion is the current connotation of the word "review."

In the past, "reviews" were written by people who were paid, as experts (of varying depth, of course) by some media outlet to pass judgment on art and entertainment. These critics drew on some background in the field to offer their opinions on books, movies, music, art, etc. They were expected to base those judgments on a lot more than just their personal feelings - their reviews were supposed to illuminate what was good, bad, and in-between about the work, and to justify those judgments by putting them into some larger, more objective context.

Different reviewers accomplished this to different degrees of success, but in general, you knew that most of them weren't just responding with knee-jerk emotional impulses when their columns were published.

These days, though, everyone on the internet can publish "reviews." The word has a totally different meaning now, having little to do with illuminating the experience others will likely have and everything to do with the personal experience of the individual writing the review. And in the case of customer reviews - which is all Amazon publishes - that experience is further personalized to potentially have nothing to do with the substance of the product. If the book didn't get downloaded properly, the customer can give it 1-star, and it's entirely justifiable, because the "review" is about the product experience and the transaction, not about whether the book was well-written.

But authors have continued to think of these as "reviews" in the traditional sense, and this is where we get into trouble. If Roger Ebert had given a movie a thumbs-down simply because a cat was killed in the story and he loved cats, people could rightly laugh about that or be outraged that he would ignore the substance of the film and fixate on this comparatively small detail. But the people responding to your books on Amazon or Goodreads are not writing that kind of "reviews." They are giving high subjective, personal responses to books, and as such, they cannot be "wrong."

And as unfair as it may seem, to be seen to be lashing out or condescending to those responses publicly is potentially lethal to your reputation as an author. I get that you may need to vent (just as these readers felt the need to vent about their responses to your book), but this is not the place. Nowhere that is publicly accessible is the place. Not if you want to maintain a good reputation with readers.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> I get that you may need to vent (just as these readers felt the need to vent about their responses to your book), but this is not the place. Nowhere that is publicly accessible is the place. Not if you want to maintain a good reputation with readers.


Agreed. Also worth noting: a lot of the time, especially on boards such as this, some of your readers are also your peers. I'm immediately turned off if someone starts picking on their readers. That's a potential sale lost.

And another thing (I have a lot of things!): When someone leaves a one star review, and says something like, "He or she killed a cat!" that's not a bad thing. It looks that way at first, but it's a blessing in some ways. What they're doing is saving countless others, who have no tolerance for animal killings, from reading that book and also leaving one star reviews saying, "He or she killed a cat!"

(The cat, of course, can be a literal cat or a metaphorical cat. )

Edit: OMG, typo!


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> I think that a big source of confusion is the current connotation of the word "review."
> 
> In the past, "reviews" were written by people who were paid, as experts (of varying depth, of course) by some media outlet to pass judgment on art and entertainment. These critics drew on some background in the field to offer their opinions on books, movies, music, art, etc. They were expected to base those judgments on a lot more than just their personal feelings - their reviews were supposed to illuminate what was good, bad, and in-between about the work, and to justify those judgments by putting them into some larger, more objective context.
> 
> ...


YES. What a good point about the confusion over what a review "is."

I'd vote for not allowing discussion of reviews. It's a mistake I made myself at the beginning. I'll bet most authors do it and regret it. Why let them do it in such a big arena where it could torpedo their careers?


----------



## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Totally. A lot of people don't like to have animals hurt or killed in books. When Changes by Jim Butcher came out, I was online chatting with folks and everyone was far more worried about the d*mn cat in the story than anything else. Like, buildings are burning down, people are dying, and we (myself included) were OMG THE CAT.


Now, I had to smile in recognition at this. Because I am exactly the same way. I get obsessive about whether or not an animal is about to be hurt or killed on-screen. I get upset about the humans, too, but moreso about the animals. I remember, years ago, I was watching a movie on The Hindenburg disaster, and the ending showed all the people who survived. When they showed the dalmatian as having had survived, everybody in the movie theater clapped and cheered. They clapped and cheered for none of the human survivors, however.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Of course, I would point out that the cat, Mister, in Jim Butcher's "Dresden Files" series is actually a character we've known from the very first book, not just a piece of set dressing (as many pets might be considered in other books). Killing him would have been little different from killing a human character from the stable of regulars.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> Agreed. Also worth nothing: a lot of the time, especially on boards such as this, some of your readers are also your peers. I'm immediately turned off if someone starts picking on their readers. That's a potential sale lost.
> 
> And another thing (I have a lot of things!): When someone leaves a one star review, and says something like, "He or she killed a cat!" that's not a bad thing. It looks that way at first, but it's a blessing in some ways. What they're doing is saving countless others, who have no tolerance for animal killings, from reading that book and also leaving one star reviews saying, "He or she killed a cat!"
> 
> (The cat, of course, can be a literal cat or a metaphorical cat. )


MUST READ YOUR BOOK NOW. You just got moved way up on my list. Sorry kitty (krista) you got dropped down a place.


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> MUST READ YOUR BOOK NOW. You just got moved way up on my list. Sorry kitty (krista) you got dropped down a place.


Yay! Get it now while it's free!


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

SevenDays said:


> Yay! Get it now while it's free!


I picked it up earlier this morning.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> I think that a big source of confusion is the current connotation of the word "review."
> 
> [snip]


I think this is right on target. And think how many more products are subject to review, now. It used to be just food, books, movies. Now people buy mattresses and lawn mowers and diapers based on reviews. It's a different world.

That said, authors have long had a tendency to react badly to reviews, even when they were written by "qualified professionals" (often, other authors). Some of the most famous literary feuds out there began with a review. We do seem drawn to shooting ourselves in the foot. 

I think banning discussion of reviews would probably be a net benefit. An even better solution would be to force thread-creators to choose one of a pre-set list of topics for their OP, with "Reviews" triggering a pop-up warning about the likely repercussions. That would allow people to decide for themselves. I'm guessing it's not technically feasible, though.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> That said, authors have long had a tendency to react badly to reviews, even when they were written by "qualified professionals" (often, other authors). Some of the most famous literary feuds out there began with a review. We do seem drawn to shooting ourselves in the foot.


Very true, this is not a new phenomenon. But the absence of "gatekeepers" also means indie authors lack the potential buffering effect of agents and publishers, so we are more likely to fall into the trap of getting into quarrels with reviewers, who instead of being paid commentators are... our own customers.



> I think banning discussion of reviews would probably be a net benefit. An even better solution would be to force thread-creators to choose one of a pre-set list of topics for their OP, with "Reviews" triggering a pop-up warning about the likely repercussions. That would allow people to decide for themselves. I'm guessing it's not technically feasible, though.


I agree with these proposals, the second one especially. If someone really wants the freedom to make an a$$ of themselves bashing their reviewers, they should have it, as long as they've been warned first about the consequences.


----------



## Micah Ackerman (Feb 16, 2014)

I think to we have to give our readers credit. I think they can tell when a review is a drive-by or whatever you want to call it. It seems that the people getting upset about the trolls or drive-bys are worrying about something that is easy for readers to pick out of the other reviews and probably disregard.

Readers are smart (and good looking), they know what is a legit review and what is just an attack on the author. 

and has been said many times, not everyone is going to like everything. If someone doesn't like what I wrote it doesn't mean that I did something wrong necessarily. It just means that the book didn't connect with them.

I'm also of the belief that the review area on Amazon and on other sites should be off limits to authors. That is the section for readers to give their opinion it's not supposed to be a place to have a back and forth. Think about restaurant reviews, what would you think if you saw a chef fighting it out with online reviewers because they thought the food wasn't great.

Micah


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

IF we're banning discussions that make you a target, we should also ban milestone threads and all talk of how much money we're making.

Also, Craft threads.

Oh, and threads where we say words.

Seriously, this is the internet, everyone is a target.


----------



## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Those who get overly worried about Amazon reviews need to reread those reviews that consist purely of "I received the book on time and it was well packaged."


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Dear god, the amount of dross on pages for sensitive components like mics makes the reviews almost useless. Thank you so much for reviewing the incompetence of your mailman. That helped me so much in evaluating this product.


----------



## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> IF we're banning discussions that make you a target, we should also ban milestone threads and all talk of how much money we're making.
> 
> Also, Craft threads.
> 
> ...


+1


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Micah Ackerman said:


> I'm also of the belief that the review area on Amazon and on other sites should be off limits to authors. That is the section for readers to give their opinion it's not supposed to be a place to have a back and forth. Think about restaurant reviews, what would you think if you saw a chef fighting it out with online reviewers because they thought the food wasn't great.
> Micah


And yet the simpletons at Amazon haven't seen fit to implement this. I wonder why.

And, FYI, chefs do fight online with reviewers. And sometimes they're right.

Nobody has any privileges or entitlements, though many think they do.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Vaalingrade said:


> Dear god, the amount of dross on pages for sensitive components like mics makes the reviews almost useless. Thank you so much for reviewing the incompetence of your mailman. That helped me so much in evaluating this product.


Maybe I don't order the right stuff, but I find the reviews on Amazon pretty useful. And I'll differ in that, shipping is part of the on line orderign experience. Yes, it would be better if the comment were not with the product review, but sometimes I get a seperate request for reviewing packaging and shipping and sometimes I don't. I guess it would depend on what the review actually said, but if a supplier (and Amazon has third party suppliers) isn't shipping appropriately, that's important to know.

Betsy


----------



## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Negative reviews come with the territory. Yes some are unfair and don't even actually mention what's going on in the book they are simply slam pieces ( sadly sometimes by other authors ). But it's best to let them go and focus on your writing.



Mandy said:


> No doubt about it, discussing reviews in the forum seems to lead to more harm than good. There are currently two threads sitting on page 1 that both more or less complain about negative reviews. Since both threads have been posted, I've watched the 'likes' increase on the negative reviews, thus making the negative reviews more visible, and have also noticed that one author's response to a negative review is getting 'unhelpful' votes.
> 
> It's becoming increasingly clear that, unless a negative review is undoubtedly harassing in nature, it's best to absorb the blow and move on.


----------



## glc3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Great advice!


TobiasRoote said:


> There is a newspaper article running around that indicates that negative reviews are GOOD for the product (whatever that is) and that it helps sell the brand.
> 
> I wouldn't go that far, but the negative views CAN and DO cause an opposite reaction in reasonable people. Every one is entitled to an opinion on a book, a plot or character, if they are polite about it and not personal, then other people will accept it as an 'opinion' and move on.
> 
> The rule is _read them privately, ignore them publicly._ and if there is worthy advice -_ 'follow it but never acknowledge it'_


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Micah Ackerman said:


> I think to we have to give our readers credit. I think they can tell when a review is a drive-by or whatever you want to call it. It seems that the people getting upset about the trolls or drive-bys are worrying about something that is easy for readers to pick out of the other reviews and probably disregard.
> 
> Readers are smart (and good looking), they know what is a legit review and what is just an attack on the author.
> 
> ...


This, times a million! Readers are intelligent, so dont expect a negative review or down vote to impact you (or positive review). I just finished reading a review on a book called Alice in Deadland and it was perfect.

Readers will critically analyze the cover, blurb, reviews, and sample before they make a purchase. If you have them hooked, the only way a negative review will change their mind is if it says:

1. The book was riddled with bad grammar.
2. The plot was inconsistent. 
3. Or some other major pitfall.

Besides that, you've got it in the bag.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> And that's why we've not acted so far.
> 
> The other side of the coin, though, is we want to keep kboards a 'go to' place for good, civil discussion and information. And we do NOT want it to become known as that place where people blab and then get keelhauled by the internet masses for comments they make, however well intentioned (or at least, not ill-intentioned) at the time.
> 
> It's a puzzle.


While new authors may be grown-ups, they are often naive.

I remember how excited I was when I found this place, and how wet behind the ears I was, too. If I'd had a drawer manuscript ready to publish, I might have done so and gotten my first bad review before I realized the repercussions of discussing reviews. I would have been miffed at first, if my complaint thread was deleted, but all it would have taken to make me grateful instead of miffed would have been a link to one of the awful "author behaving badly" mob attack stories.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> MUST READ YOUR BOOK NOW. You just got moved way up on my list. Sorry kitty (krista) you got dropped down a place.


LOL


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> IF we're banning discussions that make you a target, we should also ban milestone threads and all talk of how much money we're making.
> 
> Also, Craft threads.
> 
> ...


True. There's no way to stay completely safe. But quite a few of us post or participate in those other kinds of threads and feel that nothing bad has happened to us as a result; in contrast, I'd put money on the assertion that there has never been a review-complaint thread that didn't lead to up-/down-voting or something worse.


----------



## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> True. There's no way to stay completely safe. But quite a few of us post or participate in those other kinds of threads and feel that nothing bad has happened to us as a result


Well, there was that one time I posted a Craft thread and wound up bound to a pole in the center of town surrounded by a torch-wielding crowd chanting, "Burn the witch! Burn the witch!"

*rimshot*


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Maybe I don't order the right stuff, but I find the reviews on Amazon pretty useful. And I'll differ in that, shipping is part of the on line orderign experience. Yes, it would be better if the comment were not with the product review, but sometimes I get a seperate request for reviewing packaging and shipping and sometimes I don't. I guess it would depend on what the review actually said, but if a supplier (and Amazon has third party suppliers) isn't shipping appropriately, that's important to know.
> 
> Betsy


The thing with stuff like mics and computer parts is that they're usually borked by a carrier cramming them into your mailbox or leaving them in the sun or wet. There is nothing anyone who would be effected by reviews can do with it and anger-upvotes over this drive useful reviews off the front page, forcing you to dig.

The same upvote/downvote swarms that do this are why I don't really care about spite votes. Anyone with basic programming knowledge can quickly and easily throw those together to either do this or 'gently correct' this.



Becca Mills said:


> True. There's no way to stay completely safe. But quite a few of us post or participate in those other kinds of threads and feel that nothing bad has happened to us as a result; in contrast, I'd put money on the assertion that there has never been a review-complaint thread that didn't lead to up-/down-voting or something worse.


Then you can choose not to. I'd rather not set the precedent for being intimidated by the kind of people who make authors 'pay' for voicing their feelings. If we do this, then they'll know they can intimidate us into other things.

Remember, it's not honest reviewers targeting people like this. An honest person might choose not to buy form you, but they're not going to embark upon an orchestrated campaign to herm you over it.

For those people: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html

And they'll just move on to the next flimsy excuse to lay hooks into you.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> Well, there was that one time I posted a Craft thread and wound up bound to a pole in the center of town surrounded by a torch-wielding crowd chanting, "Burn the witch! Burn the witch!"
> 
> *rimshot*


I'm not one for the old "I told you so," but I did tell you not to bring up dialogue tags.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> Then you can choose not to. I'd rather not set the precedent for being intimidated by the kind of people who make authors 'pay' for voicing their feelings. If we do this, then they'll know they can intimidate us into other things.
> 
> Remember, it's not honest reviewers targeting people like this. An honest person might choose not to buy form you, but they're not going to embark upon an orchestrated campaign to herm you over it.
> 
> ...


I don't think the people who go and up-/down-vote reviews in response to KB threads are necessarily trolls. Some of them think they're helping the unhappy author by down-voting the bad review. They don't realize this casts the author in a bad light by making it look like he or she has orchestrated a down-voting campaign. The folks who go and up-vote bad reviews, okay, that's a little more trollish. I assume these people feel very strongly that criticizing reader-reviewers in public is not right, so they're trying to teach a lesson: _This is wrong. Don't do it._ In either case, the voter can defend their vote by saying they're readers, too, and they genuinely found the review helpful or unhelpful. I've heard this defense mounted here.

Most authors really don't want that up-/down-voting to happen and, when it's pointed out to them, try to limit the damage. But until someone points it out to them, they don't know it's going to happen. A warning when you initiate a review thread would at least mean you make your choice from an informed position. You can always disregard the warning if talking about the review is more important to you than protecting your book from the fallout.


----------



## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

But again, then we'd need that warning for posting milestones, profits, and basically any data and/or opinions. Why single out reviews discussion? Oh, and hey, what if it's to say positive things about a review, or ask questions about quoting reviews off of certain sites?

It's a whole lot of rigamarole over what is statistically nothing.


----------



## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> I think that a big source of confusion is the current connotation of the word "review."
> 
> In the past, "reviews" were written by people who were paid, as experts (of varying depth, of course) by some media outlet to pass judgment on art and entertainment. These critics drew on some background in the field to offer their opinions on books, movies, music, art, etc. They were expected to base those judgments on a lot more than just their personal feelings - their reviews were supposed to illuminate what was good, bad, and in-between about the work, and to justify those judgments by putting them into some larger, more objective context.
> 
> ...


This is a good summary of the history of reviews, and, yes, it can get rough out there. However, while negative comments, or a flash mob of upticks on the worst review of your book might hurt sales in the short run, they cannot hurt your reputation as an author. If someone burns a cross in your front yard, it reflects on their character not yours.

As a literary or hybrid literary author, I've been dealing with haters and rotters all my professional life, especially among poets, who, as someone once said to me, are not always good human beings. In a genre with generally poor sales, authors wage wars as if mafia money and power were at stake. Tempests in a tea pot as far as the general population is concerned.

So, indeed it's rough out there. Yes. As for myself, I choose not to walk in fear. I take reasonable precautions where I walk in NYC. But even there, I will take risks for someone else, even where the bad guy might pull a gun. And you know what, if you show courage and stand rather than run, allies will come to your side.

I think that is true in literature, as well. You will eventually find your friends and allies if your writing merits attention at all.

Reviews are a thorny business and I doubt there is a single solution where all sorts of people: the good, bad and the ugly are free to express an opinion. Amazon could take the position where only positive comments, sort of like living in a Potemkin Village where only the positive side of appearances are allowed to be seen, are permitted. The market needs some way to express itself.

I hope the WC does not become a Potemkin Village though I also agree that the best blogs I have commented in have been moderated. One exception is The Atlantic online, where there is little moderation, some haters and rotters, but many informed and interesting comments, nonetheless.

The worst thing that can happen to an author is that his book sinks like a stone into the ever-expanding book ocean without so much as a splash. We all want to be liked, but more so, we want the reader to get it, and when that doesn't happen, I, personally, get frustrated. Why doesn't the reader get? Is it my fault or something else.

And we make these thoughts public because we are social beings. We write about all sorts of things, milestones, health issues, birthdays, CAP LOCKS WEDNESDAY, whatever. So yes, it's a rough world out there, with a lot of good people in it.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FWIW, when KBoards had limited discussion of certain topics -- say, religion, politics  -- it's not been ONLY to protect the people who may not think through all the ramifications of what they're posting.

It is _at least_ as much to support *kboards* reputation as a friendly, courteous board that does not allow members to run roughshod over each other or, generally, act like a bunch of stupid jerks. Either toward each other or the rest of the world.

The decision to do all we can to maintain a civil tone and friendly atmosphere here was taken Very Early on and that philosophy is not likely to change. And I think the reputation of KBoards is probably the primary consideration in any future discussion about limiting, or not, various topics. The goal is to foster good discussions, while maintaining a positive and welcoming tone, not to forbid things just because we can.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> But again, then we'd need that warning for posting milestones, profits, and basically any data and/or opinions. Why single out reviews discussion? Oh, and hey, what if it's to say positive things about a review, or ask questions about quoting reviews off of certain sites?
> 
> It's a whole lot of rigamarole over what is statistically nothing.


No discussion about reviews, and that's final! No discussion about politics! No discussion about religion! No discussion about earnings! What's left? *Sex.* Let's hear it people.


----------

