# So who is going to pay for someone to download your book?



## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

$147.00. 25,000 downloads.

Looks like it must be legit because Kboards approved it. Anyone else catch the banner?

I thought the free approach in kdp select didn't affect the paid rating anymore? Is this really worth it, or not? Is it worth it for permafree?

Is this the next logical step we have to take? If BB doesn't take you, is this really a viable option? I've got birthday money coming soon, but I want to spend it wisely. I just don't know, something feels off about it. Would you try it?

I so regret making this thread. I apologize to everyone for driving all of this madness here.


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

I have no idea what you're talking about but no, it doesn't seem worth it. You come off free & your paid ranking is tanked in addition to not having a long tail now that none of your 'free buyers' has any chance of an interest of reading the book and moving on to the sequel.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Note that ads in the banner space to the left of the Kboards Book of the Day are NOT necessarily kboards ads.  Some may be, if the space was requested and purchased by a member. But even those are not 'approved' in any sense except that the ad itself does not go against our family friendly guidelines.  It's certainly not an endorsment.

Because not all spaces have been purchased, often what shows up there are google ads based on their various algorithms.

But I've sent up a flare so Harvey can take a look and do a little more checking if necessary.


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## The world would be prettier with more zebra strip (Apr 20, 2011)

Wansit said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about but no, it doesn't seem worth it. You come off free & your paid ranking is tanked in addition to not having a long tail now that none of your 'free buyers' has any chance of an interest of reading the book and moving on to the sequel.


Yeah, I thought so. If the free doesn't affect the paid, I don't know. I wonder if that's why Amazon decided to change that?

Weird, weird. I think I will stick with my original intentions then.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Yikes, that does sound a little skanky. A lot, actually. 

Basically, they'll guarantee that someone is going to download your books to boost rankings "...then Amazon will go nutty promoting your books".

It doesn't take into account that we actually want those books READ by someone who may purchase other titles. It's just about boosting you to the Top 100 list.

The ad goes to some other forum and it appears that people are actually going for this. Another sad sad victory for those making money off other people's dreams.
And another reason for Amazon to tilt their algorithms against freebies.  

ETA: They claim to actually have that many "readers" as opposed to some sort of bot system. I reserve the right to be skeptical about that. If it talks like a duck...


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2013)

The fact it's on the warrior internet marketing forum tells me to stay well clear. I read the thread that the banner links to. The guy is very shady about sharing the source of his list. He won't post to any front end or show the emails that go out. For the 'guaranteed' downloads, that could just be a bot net. I'd personally stay well clear unless this guy can prove it's legit, which he refuses to do despite a number of people on that thread asking for evidence. You don't hide something unless you've got something to hide, IMHO. Though I'm happy to be proven wrong. Buyer beware on this one I think.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I think you have misread the ad. It says $147 for 2,500  and NOT 25,000

I wouldn't use it. One of my thrillers had 4000 free downloads in one day, 2 months ago (don't know why)  I had 51 paid sales the day after @$4.95, giving me a profit of around $178. The second day sales stopped and have never recovered. I doubt anyone with 2,500 free downloads at $147 would make a profit.

It may work in some less popular genres, where the sub ranks stick for longer, but that was my experience with a thriller.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

I corrected some wording in the original post in this thread: we are unable to endorse banner ads that appear on our site... so keep that in mind, just as you would with banner ads displaying on CNN.com, HuffPo, Fox, or any site on the web.

Check it out for yourself, and caveat emptor!


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2013)

Yes, I saw it and I clicked on it to make sure what I thought I was seeing was actually what was stated. I'm still caffeinating so wasn't sure. Thought maybe they were talking $ales and not free downloads. 

Yes, the site reiterated what I read the first time. And they had one of those very irritating "Do you really want to leave the page" prompts. They hyped up the annoyance factor by making it an audible question! It started out with some guy screaming "Wait! Do you really want to ..." 

Yes, I want to ... I really, really want to!


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## Skye Ronan (Oct 31, 2013)

I've seen this around, but I question the quality of the leads. The point of free giveaways is for people to _read_ your book and then buy the next one, not just to have a boost in free ranking.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2013)

ColinFBarnes said:


> The fact it's on the warrior internet marketing forum tells me to stay well clear.


Yeah, anything that comes off of that site is going to be questionable at a best and illegal at the worst.


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## chris56 (Jun 8, 2013)

ColinFBarnes said:


> The fact it's on the warrior internet marketing forum tells me to stay well clear.


Smart choice. The Warrior forum is all about internet marketing and some of the methods people come up with to make money there are a bit, well, "black hat." Most of the WSOs (Warrior Special Offers) that people put out with regard to publishing on Kindle are about making a fast buck and the methods involve a lot of copying and pasting from sources on the internet. One person, Geoff Shaw, has a membership called Kindling that is excellent and well worth the investment, but people like him are few and far between on the Warrior forum. Internet marketing has become extremely challenging due to the number of algorithm changes Google has made, so it's no surprise that more people are focusing their money-making efforts by publishing Kindle books. And so, Kindle related WSOs are very popular.

The people here on Kboards are on the opposite end of the spectrum. This forum is full of "authors" who write for a completely different reason. It's true people here want to make money with their work, but the driving force behind what they do is to provide real value and entertainment to readers. In that respect, it's no wonder that people here would be offended by some of the techniques for publishing on Kindle that come out of the Warrior forum.


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## Ardin (Nov 1, 2012)

It's just like paying for facebook likes or twitter followers. The only person it will ever impress is yourself. No one else on the internet will ever noticed that a bot just upped your ranking briefly.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

They probably don't actually deliver, but spiking to the top of the genre free lists would be a useful trick.

... Or rather, it would if Amazon hadn't just tricked huge chunks of the genre perma-frees to tank themselves with Coundown.

As it stands, you'd probably do better using that $150 on Project Wonderful ads.


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## Ben Oakley (Oct 22, 2013)

Didn't quite know how to word the subject title but I'm talking about the banner advert that has been appearing at the top of the KBoards site today that links here - http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/850596-kindle-domination-free-kindle-download-promotion-service-hundreds-sales-afterwards-2.html

First off - I'm concerned how someone can offer _guaranteed _downloads of a free book and that most of the reviews have come from people with zero posts on the thread.

We all know that services such as Bookbub usually bring astounding results (if you can get a listing). And there are other services which are just as good but they are also open about how their businesses run and don't guarantee a certain amount of downloads.

Do you think that this service is something to steer away from or do they have something that is a typical warrior forum flash in the pan!?


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Those are good questions -- there was an earlier thread about this so am merging the two.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

That banner worried me also.

Ditto the one that says "This is why your Kindle book won't sell"

And the banners on this forum also worry my McAfee virus scan a lot. I was going to raise that issue, because they never used to cause warnings until about a month ago.

Yeah, yeah, adblocker. But I don't actually believe in adblocker, because forums like this one need to be paid in one way or another. As long as the ads are appropriate and non-intrusive, which these ones lately have ceased to be.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't trust anything/anyone on Warrior Forum. They also added a script to that link that once you click it and them close out their window, it gives you a popup on KB when you try navigate to another page.


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## Kat Lilynette (Oct 12, 2013)

Monique said:


> I don't trust anything/anyone on Warrior Forum.


This x1000. Warrior Forum is one of the shadiest, scummiest communities on the internet - avoid like the plague.

This is the banner in question:










Assuming it actually does what it says, you can rest assured that the downloads are not from real people and it's only an attempt to game the Amazon free rankings. Amazon will have no problem identifying and banning the ip blocks of this bot net. Not even worth wasting time with, in my opinion.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm surprised this sort of thing isn't more prevalent.

Buying your way onto a bestseller list is certainly nothing new.

I don't think paying for something like this is illegal. It's definitely against the Amazon KDP Terms of Service, though, to do anything to artificially manipulate rankings. You can, however, book a whole bunch of paid ads for the same day, and that's considered standard practice, though it certainly does manipulate rankings!!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> And the banners on this forum also worry my McAfee virus scan a lot. I was going to raise that issue, because they never used to cause warnings until about a month ago.


Patty, if you'll tell us which banner is showing when you get a virus alert, it would help us.

Betsy


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Patty, if you'll tell us which banner is showing when you get a virus alert, it would help us.
> 
> Betsy


LOL I don't know if I can, because McAfee won't show me the banner


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> LOL I don't know if I can, because McAfee won't show me the banner


Ahhh...it doesn't cite a link or anything? I'm going to let Harvey know...

Betsy


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ahhh...it doesn't cite a link or anything? I'm going to let Harvey know...
> 
> Betsy


No, and to be honest the blocked thingie hasn't appeared today.

I have no idea how much control you have over the ads google places on your site. Can you suggest categories? If you I could, I would *so* de-select "writing" because all those ads that come through google are vanity presses or similar "services" that we all agree are scam setups. I've seen vanity pubs advertise at agent websites. And at Absolute Write.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> No, and to be honest the blocked thingie hasn't appeared today.
> 
> I have no idea how much control you have over the ads google places on your site. Can you suggest categories? If you I could, I would *so* de-select "writing" because all those ads that come through google are vanity presses or similar "services" that we all agree are scam setups. I've seen vanity pubs advertise at agent websites. And at Absolute Write.


Thanks. I'll pass the info on to Harvey; I'm not very familiar with the ad process. 

Betsy


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## Mip7 (Mar 3, 2013)

I posted a warning, my thoughts on the service in question, on that thread in the warrior forum last month and it was removed after a few days. It was a very cordial post and not the least bit abusive. I guess the seller can get the admin to remove any kind of negative feedback on these WSO threads nowadays, which makes all of them extremely suspect IMO.

This is the gist of it: There is only one Bookbub. But this service being offered obviously works, based on the current feedback. They can deliver 10,000 downloads on your free day, thereby pushing you eBook into a *huge* increased visibility at Amazon when it comes off free, similar to what a Bookbub promo can (or at least used to be able to) do.

The only way it is possible to guarantee these download numbers is by having 10,000 fake amazon accounts and a script. Period. No other way this can be done if you are not Bookbub, and even Bookbub does not guarantee download numbers. This is *obviously* how it is done, and as someone already mentioned is simply a trick to game the system. But it works -- for now, anyway.

What I warned about in my removed post was what Amazon would do when they eventually identify the fake accounts. Will they care enough to administer repercussions to the books that were downloaded by the fake accounts? Perhaps the risk of that is small, but the potential consequences so severe that no one who is serious about becoming a successful indie author should mess around with it IMO.

It's a fairly safe bet Amazon will care enough to do something to stop this. Whatever they do, the bot programmers can probably counteract to some degree, using rotating IP numbers or whatever. Personally I see the only eventual solution is to require Amazon accounts to have made at least one $money$ purchase in the past before allowing them to download any free books, which is the same way Amazon solved the problem with fake accounts posting reviews. Either that or change the algorithm so free downloads do not affect visibility after the free days (or kill the entire free download program entirely).


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2013)

Arkan9 said:


> The only way it is possible to guarantee these download numbers is by having 10,000 fake amazon accounts and a script. Period. No other way this can be done if you are not Bookbub, and even Bookbub does not guarantee download numbers. This is *obviously* how it is done, and as someone already mentioned is simply a trick to game the system. But it works -- for now, anyway.


Exactly. The fact that the guaranteed number of downloads is based on fixed prices tells you these aren't real readers. In all seriousness, what do they want us to think they are doing, sending out a newsletter to read readers and, when they hit the download limit, giving people an error message that they aren't allowed to download the free book?

The problem is that a free boost only matters if it leads to additional activity on Amazon. 10,000 bots don't really do anything for you because free sales don't count toward regular rank. Once the free run ends, if those 10,000 people aren't giving you reviews, buying other titles, talking about your book, or joining your newsletter, or doing SOMETHING with your book, it doesn't mean anything.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2013)

Mimi said:


> I don't think paying for something like this is illegal. It's definitely against the Amazon KDP Terms of Service, though, to do anything to artificially manipulate rankings. You can, however, book a whole bunch of paid ads for the same day, and that's considered standard practice, though it certainly does manipulate rankings!!


It isn't manipulating rankings to promote to actual customers who would be interested in your books. If I do an ad blast to target horror readers, my goal is not ranking manipulation. My goal is to get my book in front of the face of horror readers. If my rankings improve, that is the organic result of reaching my target audience.

You are correct that there is nothing technically illegal insofar as criminal charges (unless the bots are using zombie computers on hacked computers...which considering the source of the ad would NOT surprise me in the slightest). It is, however, a TOS violation so Amazon can do whatever they want to do to the offending parties.


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## lmroth12 (Nov 15, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It isn't manipulating rankings to promote to actual customers who would be interested in your books. If I do an ad blast to target horror readers, my goal is not ranking manipulation. My goal is to get my book in front of the face of horror readers. If my rankings improve, that is the organic result of reaching my target audience.
> 
> You are correct that there is nothing technically illegal insofar as criminal charges (unless the bots are using zombie computers on hacked computers...which considering the source of the ad would NOT surprise me in the slightest). It is, however, a TOS violation so Amazon can do whatever they want to do to the offending parties.


I agree, Julie. Promoting our own books via paid ads is not only NOT manipulating rankings, but is encouraged by Amazon in their KDP Forum, as there is only so much free promoting they do for us. They merely provide the platform for us to publish but further advertising to gain visibility is the responsibility of the author.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi guys. Just saw this thread so I thought that I would chime in.

I realize that some people on here may think that warrior forum doesn't always have the best service for sale, however it does have a dedicated kindle author section, which is a large reason why we are selling on there. Please read the reviews of the service if you have any doubt of its authenticity. 

As per the issue of amazon ToS-
Nobody is being paid to physically download the books. The service is a promotional/ad service, and just as BookBub is within the ToS of Amazon, we are too.

About the ad being approved by Kboards-
The ad was run directly through kboards and no 3rd party. They looked over our service and they did approve it.

About our guarantee- 
We offer the guarantee because we noticed that so many self-publishers spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to so called "marketers" that will attempt to help them with their book promotions. The problem with this is usually there are so many grey areas and the promises made are never concrete. We felt that most people wanted something guaranteed. We generally attempt to over-deliver, so we have a very low chance of falling short on the promotion. If that happens, we would gladly refund the service.

I hope that I answered many of the questions in this thread.

We have no intention of alienating the Kboards forum, and would love to be part of the community if you guys would have us.

As a token of goodwill, I would like to offer anybody that has previously posted in this thread an opportunity to get our largest package (10,000+) for free. Just post here if you are interested.

If you have any further questions I will try to come back and check this thread often but I can be reached on my email at [email protected]


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

chris56 said:


> Smart choice. The Warrior forum is all about internet marketing and some of the methods people come up with to make money there are a bit, well, "black hat." Most of the WSOs (Warrior Special Offers) that people put out with regard to publishing on Kindle are about making a fast buck and the methods involve a lot of copying and pasting from sources on the internet. One person, Geoff Shaw, has a membership called Kindling that is excellent and well worth the investment, but people like him are few and far between on the Warrior forum. Internet marketing has become extremely challenging due to the number of algorithm changes Google has made, so it's no surprise that more people are focusing their money-making efforts by publishing Kindle books. And so, Kindle related WSOs are very popular.
> 
> The people here on Kboards are on the opposite end of the spectrum. This forum is full of "authors" who write for a completely different reason. It's true people here want to make money with their work, but the driving force behind what they do is to provide real value and entertainment to readers. In that respect, it's no wonder that people here would be offended by some of the techniques for publishing on Kindle that come out of the Warrior forum.


Hey there, Geoff Shaw is actually one of the largest promoters of our service. He promotes it to all of those who go through his kindling program.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

As others stated, it isn't going to help you much. Amazon has tweaked coming off of free not to help your sales, and seems to have tweaked even where if you had a sale, and made decent dl's your ranking will tank faster than someone with less sales for the month but steady ones.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Kat Lilynette said:


> This x1000. Warrior Forum is one of the shadiest, scummiest communities on the internet - avoid like the plague.


I would take strong exception to that generalization. I have personally been a long-time member of the Warrior Forum and have sold many, many products there through numerous WSO's. Of course, all of my WSO's were legitimate products of high quality, I never wanted to have my name associated with producing something of poor quality. And I've never, ever promoted anything black hat or grey hat.

Yes, there is lots of crap there as well, but everyone on the site is not a scammer. However, an intelligent person can usually identify which is which. If you want to get really down and dirty, go over to Blackhat World.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> As others stated, it isn't going to help you much. Amazon has tweaked coming off of free not to help your sales, and seems to have tweaked even where if you had a sale, and made decent dl's your ranking will tank faster than someone with less sales for the month but steady ones.


Hi there. That is a small misconception. While its true it is not nearly as good as it may have been years ago, _successful_ promotions certainly have a good positive effect on SALES after the promo ends. This is especially true for those that have books with sequels. We have a publishing house that has some authors that have their first book permanently free, with paid sequels that are currently loving our service.

We have also found that a successful free promo is very good for books that are getting little to no sales, but are high quality books. I feel there are many kindle authors fall under this category because they are good writers, but cant get their book "out there" so to speak. We have found lower quality books (that we sometimes see from self-published authors) do not see nearly as good results.

Again, about WarriorForum, yes, much of the stuff over there can be low quality and way too overhyped. I believe that the naysayers about are service are simply those who have not yet tried it for themselves, or may be uninformed and simply making speculations.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm skeptical. How can you guarantee the downloads? Unless they are robo accounts or enslaved. Also, what about the script that was part of the ad here on KB? The little popup? That's not cool.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Monique said:


> I'm skeptical. How can you guarantee the downloads? Unless they are robo accounts or enslaved. Also, what about the script that was part of the ad here on KB? The little popup? That's not cool.


Hi I am not sure about any popup, we simply provide Kboards with an image for the banner, and a URL to our thread over at the warrior forum. We didn't add any popup, maybe it was something Warrior Forum added. If thats the case I will investigate, and if we do more banner ads on Kboards we will make sure it doesn't happen again. So thank you for bringing that to my attention. I hate popups too!

We have done over 200 promos and Thomas and I are kindle publishers also, so we have a lot of experience with how many clicks it takes to get a certain number of downloads. We also tend to over-deliver, so that generally takes care of any variance that may occur. If you ordered and you get less than the package promised, we would simply process you a refund, it's as simple as that.

I would have to check, but I believe we have only fallen short a little on one occasion, and in that case the client was happy enough to accept another promotion as compensation.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Big free runs can lead to a boost in sales. On that we agree. My first book has had a few and I know the potential positive effects first hand. We all want your service to be a success and be a legitimate way to have a great free run. We need more tools that can help increase visibility. But I can't help being leary.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Monique said:


> Big free runs can lead to a boost in sales. On that we agree. My first book has had a few and I know the potential positive effects first hand. We all want your service to be a success and be a legitimate way to have a great free run. We need more tools that can help increase visibility. But I can't help being leary.


Its OK to be a skeptic. I will just have to try that much harder to prove myself, and our service to you and the community. We will gladly do that.

I noticed you have a book that I assume is permanently free right now. In my previous post I offered to give someone on here a promotion so they can test it out for themselves.

Would you like to be the recipient?


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Monique said:


> Big free runs can lead to a boost in sales. On that we agree. My first book has had a few and I know the potential positive effects first hand. We all want your service to be a success and be a legitimate way to have a great free run. We need more tools that can help increase visibility. But I can't help being leary.


I agree with this. Services like the one you're promoting are great... provided they're legitimate. If your service is indeed legitimate, then I'm sure this community will welcome you with open arms. I think we're always a bit suspicious about new ventures in this area, and it isn't until trustworthy members of our community stick their toes in the water that we tend to try out new things.

It certainly sounds too good to be true, though. Not trying to be harsh, just reasonable. I'd love to be proven wrong, of course. As an author with a permafree and a series of sequels that bookbub won't touch, something like this would be a welcome alternative. But like others have said, it's important that people are actually _reading_ the books that get downloaded.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm just not sure why you seem to refuse to say "Yes these downloads are from real people." if they are.

I went and read the entire thread on the warrior forum just now and that question seemed to be dodged every time.


Also, it seems this would completely screw your also-boughts up if the 10k are not people actually interested in your genre (if they are real people.)


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Adam Poe said:


> I'm just not sure why you seem to refuse to say "Yes these downloads are from real people." if they are.
> 
> I went and read the entire thread on the warrior forum just now and that question seemed to be dodged every time.
> 
> Also, it seems this would completely screw your also-boughts up if the 10k are not people actually interested in your genre (if they are real people.)


Yes they are completely real people, mostly from the USA. I dont know why you feel like we dodged the question, as we answered that on the first page of the warrior forum thread.

Free downloads doesn't effect customers who bought, only the sales that come in afterwards, which would only be beneficial for your book.

We also had a customer inquire with amazon to verify if the downloads were legitimate, and they confirmed through their end that they were. If you would like to read the email from amazon they posted it on the last page of the warrior forum thread.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Also-boughts are impacted by free downloads. Each time I have done Bookbub ads on my wife's perma-free it always ends up changing them. If ten-thousand people who just downloaded 5 diet books then downloads my wife's book, it would show those books in the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" list.


And it seemed like it was being dodged to me several times. Someone asked to know how these were generated and if it was bots and/or fake accounts and the reply was something like "We're here to sale a service, not teach people how to do our business."



If I was ordering a sandwich at Subway and instead of making it in front of me behind the glass they took it into the back room, I'd be a little iffy there too. Just because you show someone what you are using to make a sandwich doesn't mean they are going to run out and start a sub shop.


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Adam Poe said:


> If I was ordering a sandwich at Subway and instead of making it in front of me behind the glass they took it into the back room, I'd be a little iffy there too. Just because you show someone what you are using to make a sandwich doesn't mean they are going to run out and start a sub shop.


LOL, I shudder to think of the illicit acts those sandwich artisans might engage in if not for the glass divider.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Adam Poe said:


> Also-boughts are impacted by free downloads. Each time I have done Bookbub ads on my wife's perma-free it always ends up changing them. If ten-thousand people who just downloaded 5 diet books then downloads my wife's book, it would show those books in the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" list.
> 
> And it seemed like it was being dodged to me several times. Someone asked to know how these were generated and if it was bots and/or fake accounts and the reply was something like "We're here to sale a service, not teach people how to do our business."
> 
> If I was ordering a sandwich at Subway and instead of making it in front of me behind the glass they took it into the back room, I'd be a little iffy there too. Just because you show someone what you are using to make a sandwich doesn't mean they are going to run out and start a sub shop.


I have not seen any change in customers who bought with free downloads, maybe I am mistaken. Maybe bookbub is a special case.

I understand your Subway Sandwich metaphor, however you must understand that warrior forum is a forum of other marketers, while this forum is comprised of authors, which is a big difference.

I also reiterate that amazon has given a direct answer as to if the downloads are above board or not, which again, was posted on the last page of the warrior forum thread.

Regardless of any answers or details I could provide, I still believe that the best proof is in reviews from actual customers.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

The conversation with a KDP/Amazon associate was a copy and paste. I'd be much more convinced with it if it was a screenshot.


I am not trying to be overly skeptical, in fact I would be ecstatic if it was as legitimate and successful as Bookbub, but like I said before, I have a hard time trusting in something unknown that seems insistent on having no transparency at all. At this time I will definitely be passing/sticking to Bookbub.


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Meh. The guy has stopped here to answer our questions. At least he's not a drive-by. Moreover, he's offered to let some of us try it out for free. I don't see the harm in taking him up on that. Then we'd know whether this is legitimate or not. Worst case scenario: You try the service for free and a bunch of spam-bots have your book. Best case: It actually works and you reach a lot of new readers.

I'd be interested to try, personally.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

I read the thread on the Warrior Forum. Some of the posters in that thread look like drive-bys or shills, whereas others look like real testimonials. Dunno what to make of it, but let some of us take it for a free test drive and we can post screencaps of results, etc, like Estelle suggests.

If this proves to be a legitimate service, you stand to grow your client base by a whole lot. Just sayin'. A lot of writers on this board have been shunned by Bookbub et al and would _kill someone in front of their own mother_ just to get the sort of downloads you're talking about.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Estelle Ryan said:


> It seems to me Freebookservice is in a difficult position. They _appear_ to have a good marketing product that is working, but would like to protect it from others stealing the idea. With all the scams taking authors' money, we are so very wary of anyone offering good results without showing us their birth certificates, their tax returns and their dog's pedigree authentication. This is really a hard business for all of us.
> 
> Apart from all the concerns mention above, I also wonder if all 10,000 of those downloaders are mystery readers, because those are the people I would like to reach. That being said, I am willing to jump in the deep end and take this baby for a (free) test drive. I see OJ already offered to try, but if you want another WC writer, I'll report my results here (with screenshots). That might make it easier to win our trust. We are all once twice thrice bitten...


Thanks for being unbiased towards us, and giving us a chance.

We do have some segmentation, so yes you would be getting some, specific, mystery readers. On the other hand, there are many people are simply freebie hunters. However, from our promotion you get skyrocketed into the top of the kindle free rankings, where you will get organic downloads (we have seen some people end up with 20,000+ after hitting #1 in the free store)

I notice you have a book on free right now, here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008X3NCRE/ . I see that it is #285 in the free store. How does top 10 sound? 

OJ's book http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0081WTCQ2 is sitting at 9409 in the kindle store at the time of writing.
Lets see what I can do with this one 

These two freebies should be enough to prove myself to the community. Hopefully thats the case. Thanks for the opportunity guys.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Paying for downloads, reviews, or whatever?
I might make a few bucks at best, and then wake up the next morning feeling like crap over it.
I can't travel that road. I have to earn it. 
Honor is the only thing I have left after the money is spent.
If I can do it, anyone can. I sleep well at night.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Paying for downloads, reviews, or whatever?
> I might make a few bucks at best, and then wake up the next morning feeling like crap over it.
> I can't travel that road. I have to earn it.
> Honor is the only thing I have left after the money is spent.
> If I can do it, anyone can. I sleep well at night.


I believe you are mistaken, this is a promotional (advertising) service. Nobody is paid to download books, and nobody is paid for any type of reviews.

Marketing is a key aspect of any business, and also key aspects for any big publishing firm.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Looks as though a promotion for mine has begun. I checked my numbers this morning and had 4 DLs of my permafree. Checked again just now. Sitting at 155 currently. A nice little spike. Will keep everyone posted.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

OJ Connell said:


> Looks as though a promotion for mine has begun. I checked my numbers this morning and had 4 DLs of my permafree. Checked again just now. Sitting at 155 currently. A nice little spike. Will keep everyone posted.


Please let us know what it does when you get the 10,000 downloads. 4 could be from anywhere.


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Will do. It seems to have just surpassed 500. Not half bad. Haven't seen this kind of activity since ENT picked me up way back when. Numbers like these are totally possible with a well-managed list of decent size. So yeah, this service _might_ be legit. We'll see how things go the rest of the day. It's still early on, after all.

Curiously though, despite more than 500 downloads of the freebie, no one's bought any of the others in the series. They're cheaply priced, and usually when I see perma-frees move like this there's at least _a few_ buy-throughs. My promo through Freebooksy yielded about 70 sales of the others with only ~1000 downloads. What does this mean? Am I dealing with bots? People are looking solely for the free books? This service is actually run by the Yakuza and I'm about to get my pinky finger sheared off in return for downloads of my permafree?

*Stay tuned.*


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

OJ Connell said:


> Will do. It seems to have just surpassed 500. Not half bad. Haven't seen this kind of activity since ENT picked me up way back when. Numbers like these are totally possible with a well-managed list of decent size. So yeah, this service _might_ be legit. We'll see how things go the rest of the day. It's still early on, after all.
> 
> Curiously though, despite more than 500 downloads of the freebie, no one's bought any of the others in the series. They're cheaply priced, and usually when I see perma-frees move like this there's at least _a few_ buy-throughs. My promo through Freebooksy yielded about 70 sales of the others with only ~1000 downloads. What does this mean? Am I dealing with bots? People are looking solely for the free books? This service is actually run by the Yakuza and I'm about to get my pinky finger sheared off in return for downloads of my permafree?
> 
> *Stay tuned.*


If people just picked up your perma free in the last few minutes, it is doubtful most have had time to read it. There might be a few readers out there that can read that fast. 
But do keep us informed.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

OJ Connell said:


> Will do. It seems to have just surpassed 500. Not half bad. Haven't seen this kind of activity since ENT picked me up way back when. Numbers like these are totally possible with a well-managed list of decent size. So yeah, this service _might_ be legit. We'll see how things go the rest of the day. It's still early on, after all.
> 
> Curiously though, despite more than 500 downloads of the freebie, no one's bought any of the others in the series. They're cheaply priced, and usually when I see perma-frees move like this there's at least _a few_ buy-throughs. My promo through Freebooksy yielded about 70 sales of the others with only ~1000 downloads. What does this mean? Am I dealing with bots? People are looking solely for the free books? This service is actually run by the Yakuza and I'm about to get my pinky finger sheared off in return for downloads of my permafree?
> 
> *Stay tuned.*


Please give it a few days to see a bump in sales on your other books. While yes, of course we are dealing with people that are interested in freebies (less likely to go on to purchase than a normal person finding your book), you will definitely see a bump in sales in the coming days.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I had to hit the hay last night, I see you've chosen some guinea pigs. I'll be watching with interest.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Hovering at 777 downloads atm. Rank hasn't updated yet. I'm going to head to bed soonish, but will post an update when I get up.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Monique said:


> I had to hit the hay last night, I see you've chosen some guinea pigs. I'll be watching with interest.


Because I previously offered it to you, would you like to still take me up on the offer? That would make it so theres 3 testers, more than enough for the community to get an idea on how well the service works.

Rank updates can take between 1-8 hours. Amazon is really finnicky that way.


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Just for reference. Taken at 12:06 PM:


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

freebookservice said:


> Because I previously offered it to you, would you like to still take me up on the offer? That would make it so theres 3 testers, more than enough for the community to get an idea on how well the service works.


As long as the service doesn't circumvent or break Amazon TOS, sure, why not? Thanks for the offer. The proof will, after all, be in the pudding.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

A guarantee of a certain number of downloads doesn't necessarily mean faked downloads, but a confidence in the strength of one's list. I don't see how Amazon would allow for two seconds a massive group of bots. Seems like it would have a lot bigger dangers for the company than gaming the free book lists, and you can guarantee they've spent millions in preventative measures to keep from getting hacked in one way or another. And yes, this would be a hacking of their algorithms.

If the offer still stands, this is my freebie. I'm willing to give it a try and report on results. If it's real, I'd expect some follow through sales on the second book in the series, some signups for my mailing list, and some other evidence that real people are looking at it. I've done several BB ads and other things and have a good idea of roughly what you could expect to see from 10K+ free downloads.

My free fantasy novel.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Been following this thread with interest, and I want to thank freebookservice for taking the time to stop by and patiently explain things. Of course, it doesn't mean much, but it's a start. I'll remain skeptical myself, as the promised numbers seem a bit far-fetched for blasting out of the woodwork. If, indeed, it results in follow-on sales and legitimate reviews, and there's finally a viable alternative to BB, then fantastic.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> Been following this thread with interest, and I want to thank freebookservice for taking the time to stop by and patiently explain things. Of course, it doesn't mean much, but it's a start. I'll remain skeptical myself, as the promised numbers seem a bit far-fetched for blasting out of the woodwork. If, indeed, it results in follow-on sales and legitimate reviews, and there's finally a viable alternative to BB, then fantastic.


Hey, I'm always skeptical myself, but I still am baffled by BookBub, to be honest. Seems like however they did it should be duplicable . . . if you can figure out the secret of where they're buying the lists.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Monique said:


> As long as the service doesn't circumvent or break Amazon TOS, sure, why not? Thanks for the offer. The proof will, after all, be in the pudding.


No problem. I started a promotion for you. Since its already 1PM eastern time, there are less hours in the day (usually start the promos for people in the morning), but I will try to eke out as much as I can for you today 



MichaelWallace said:


> A guarantee of a certain number of downloads doesn't necessarily mean faked downloads, but a confidence in the strength of one's list. I don't see how Amazon would allow for two seconds a massive group of bots. Seems like it would have a lot bigger dangers for the company than gaming the free book lists, and you can guarantee they've spent millions in preventative measures to keep from getting hacked in one way or another. And yes, this would be a hacking of their algorithms.
> 
> If the offer still stands, this is my freebie. I'm willing to give it a try and report on results. If it's real, I'd expect some follow through sales on the second book in the series, some signups for my mailing list, and some other evidence that real people are looking at it. I've done several BB ads and other things and have a good idea of roughly what you could expect to see from 10K+ free downloads.
> 
> My free fantasy novel.


Hey there, thanks for your interest. All three of the "test runs" have been given out.

Interesting points about amazon... they are after all a 180 billion dollar company at the time of writing, so its doubtful anybody could game them.



Saul Tanpepper said:


> Been following this thread with interest, and I want to thank freebookservice for taking the time to stop by and patiently explain things. Of course, it doesn't mean much, but it's a start. I'll remain skeptical myself, as the promised numbers seem a bit far-fetched for blasting out of the woodwork. If, indeed, it results in follow-on sales and legitimate reviews, and there's finally a viable alternative to BB, then fantastic.


No problem. Honestly I didn't even know this thread existed until yesterday. I didn't even realize kboards had that many authors on it. I'd like to mention that Thomas and I are not new to kindle, or marketing. We are simply new to this community. It's too bad it took me so long to finally join up!

----
I am going to try to keep up with all the replies in this thread. I guess at some point maybe I should make an official thread for my service? Is that allowed?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks. You can always start it tomorrow if that will show the product better.

I've recorded the my starting point today: 284 and a rank of 903


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Yep, you can start a thread about your services here. There are certain guidelines for such threads, but the admins here are very accommodating about that sort of thing.

OK, posting one more screencap. Then I'm going to bed. For serious.



Some solid downloads here. Can't wait to see what things look like when I wake up. Hope that pesky ranking updates soon!
Thanks, freebookservice. I appreciate the opportunity. Will update this thread later on!


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

freebookservice said:


> Hey there, thanks for your interest. All three of the "test runs" have been given out.


No worries. I thought it didn't hurt to ask. 



> Interesting points about amazon... they are after all a 180 billion dollar company at the time of writing, so its doubtful anybody could game them.


Oh, I'm sure _someone _could. But I'm pretty sure someone with that kind of muscle would be 1. located in China or Russia, and 2. do something a little more nefarious than give away free books for $147.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

If you are offering some small test runs to test the authenticity of the service, then we do have a perma-freebie: http://www.amazon.com/Twin-Souls-Nevermore-Book-Vampire-ebook/dp/B007Q4JDEM

If you do select mine, as a skeptic, I am going to send a few e-mails to KDP and ask for the origin of the downloads (like the post did in the warrior forums). If they do confirm it is completely legitimate, I will make post here with screen shots of what KDP/Amazon has said.

If all ends up Kosher with me and the others in this thread, I am sure your business will explode in these forums.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

Adam Poe said:


> If you are offering some small test runs to test the authenticity of the service, then we do have a perma-freebie: http://www.amazon.com/Twin-Souls-Nevermore-Book-Vampire-ebook/dp/B007Q4JDEM
> 
> If you do select mine, as a skeptic, I am going to send a few e-mails to KDP and ask for the origin of the downloads (like the post did in the warrior forums). If they do confirm it is completely legitimate, I will make post here with screen shots of what KDP/Amazon has said.
> 
> If all ends up Kosher with me and the others in this thread, I am sure your business will explode in these forums.


Thanks for your interest. We've filled all 3 "test run slots" already.



OJ Connell said:


> Yep, you can start a thread about your services here. There are certain guidelines for such threads, but the admins here are very accommodating about that sort of thing.


Can someone chime in on this? Is there information about the guidelines anywhere?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

freebookservice said:


> Can someone chime in on this? Is there information about the guidelines anywhere?


Basically, you can start a thread about your product/service/business, but you must adhere to some basic rules. Here's a post from a mod on a similar thread:



> You're welcome to promote your business and website here in the Writers' Café, but we ask that the same basic rules be followed as we have for authors in the Book Bazaar: you may have one thread about your service and must post to it rather than start a new thread each time. New threads about the service will be removed. Please bookmark this thread so that you can find it again to post to. And, you may not make back-to-back posts to the thread within seven days. If someone responds (such as this post), you may reply but otherwise must wait seven days, thanks!
> 
> Also, active members (10 or more posts on our forum, active in the last 60 days) may have a listing in the Yellow Pages for Authors.


Once you start a thread, I'm sure a mod will come along and clarify the rules of engagement.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Just checked OJ's book, it is now at number 67 on the top 100 free and number 1 in private investigators.
It is 6pm 12/2/2013 CST.


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

That's a great rank. Nearing 5,000 downloads now. Very impressed. How long will this promotion last, freebookservice?

ETA: Looks like Estelle is at #23 and Monique is at #57. Wouldn't it be something if the three of us ended up as the top 3 in the free store?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

freebookservice said:


> Can someone chime in on this? Is there information about the guidelines anywhere?


Welcome to KBoards, freebookservice!

[br][br]You're welcome to promote your business and website here in the Writers' Café, but we ask that the same basic rules be followed as we have for authors in the Book Bazaar: you may have one thread about your service and must post to it rather than start a new thread each time. New threads about the service will be removed.

We ask that you bookmark the thread so that you can find it again to post to. And, you may not make back-to-back posts to the thread within seven days. If someone replies to your thread, you may reply but otherwise must wait seven days, thanks![br][br]Also, active members (10 or more posts on our forum, active in the last 60 days) may have a listing in the Yellow Pages for Authors.

Once you've started your thread, we will post something almost identical to this^ so that everyone knows your thread has been approved.[br][br]Betsy [br]KBoards Moderator


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Here's my update:

I'm coming up on 4k downloads and have a rank of 57.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

freebookservice said:


> I believe you are mistaken, this is a promotional (advertising) service. Nobody is paid to download books, and nobody is paid for any type of reviews.
> 
> Marketing is a key aspect of any business, and also key aspects for any big publishing firm.


If I misunderstood the methods used by your service, then I apologize. My understanding was that for a fee, a certain number of free downloads was promised. I hope you can understand why such a guarantee provokes a dubious reaction, especially given someone could pollute your offering with absolute junk that no one would download.

If the performance guarantee is based solely on loyal subscribers from a list or website, then I see no problem with the service.

If the downloads are accomplished via dummy subscribers, bots or other trickery just to increase a title's ranking, then I stand by my original statement.

It looks like you have clarified your model in subsequent posts, which I will reread momentarily. Legit folks downloading a book to read, however discovered, is proper IMHO. All's fair in love, war and promotion. I wish you luck!


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

How does one get on the list to see the books that are being promoted?

For example, I can sign up on Bookbub or ENT or whatever and see exactly what is being sent exactly as the target customer sees it.


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Please keep us up to date (Monique and anyone else getting the 'trial') as to the sale-through increase to the rest of your series/books, as well as the status of your also-boughts. Also, if you get any information from KDP/Amazon on the users / demographic, that would be awesome too.

Hoping all does turn out kosher; that would be awesome


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## OJ Connell (Mar 23, 2012)

Still rolling along. WILL. IT. GO. ALL. THE. WAY

Lol, this is the best my freebie has performed since ENT picked it up. Pretty awesome numbers.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2013)

kdarden said:


> I want to say first and foremost that when I first heard about this, I also thought there was something about this service that was scammy or illegal or ... something. It didn't "feel" right to me, perhaps because it seemed too easy.
> 
> However, watching a couple of friends and seeing their results, I looked into it more closely. And I talked to other folks about it, including the providers - who answered my questions to my satisfaction. I finally decided it was no different from BookBub or an other such service.
> 
> ...


Thank you SO MUCH for the review! I really appreciate it.

So you all know i've created my own "official" thread right here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,169160.0.html
Hopefully we all can continue the conversation over there


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

kdarden said:


> as well as 133 books in the series overall, including 38 of those being my 4 book bundle.


Hi kdarden, thanks for your feedback. How many more sales than usual is this for you in the same time frame?

Thanks!


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Congrats to you three! Can't wait to see how it turns out!


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