# The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I was wandering around Amazon and I just noticed that Random House is FINALLY releasing The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever as ebooks. Lord Foul's Bane, The Illearth War and Power That Preserves are going to be released on May 16th for $7.99 a pop.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Hmmm.  Not horrible pricing.  Though I'm not inclined to repurchase them.  I read 'em at least 25 years ago.  Gets my vote for most dis-likeable "hero" in existence.  But the supporting characters had much in the way of redeeming character traits.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I read the first book back when it was originally published, and disliked the hero so much that I abandoned it halfway through! A couple of friends did like the series, but I never gave it another chance. So much tbr stuff now, that I probably still won't. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

One of the truisms around this series is that Thomas Covenant is a thoroughly unlikable person and there are many who can't get past that.  I haven't read the series since I was a kid and I've forgotten a lot of it - but I am curious if I'll react differently reading it 30 years later than I did initially ....


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

I still have the original paperbacks. 

This was a great series back in the day. I re-read them not too long ago and wasn't as impressed as I was when I first read them as a teenager, though.


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## LoneWolfMuskoka (Apr 18, 2012)

I remember thinking "just try you idiot" most of the way through this series. The first 3 books were pretty entertaining though, even though the hero wasn't. The last 3 books were a wash for me. I figure that they could have removed the last half of the first, all of the second and the front half of the last. Then they'd have a book that fit and completed the series. All the middle stuff was just stuffing.

I noticed that the Amazon page doesn't even list the last 3 books. Perhaps I'm not the only one who felt that way about them.


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## scottmarlowe (Apr 22, 2010)

The second series was horribly long, drawn out, and boring. I don't think I ever attempted the 3rd series.


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

Okay, I'll go out on a limb and stand up for Thomas Covenant.

I'm usually the one to bring up this trilogy when someone starts a sci-fi/fantasy opinion thread, so I was glad to see someone else make a post about The Chronicles. What continues to surprise me is the strong opinion of those who so thoroughly dislike the main character. I'm usually pretty sensitive to unlikeable protagonists - anti-heroes and such - and just to be perfectly clear, don't enjoy them. I think there's far too much emphasis on the "dark" side of humanity in all forms of entertainment, with critics in particular leading the charge in the notion that goodness and light are dull while darkness and evil are far more worthy of attention and praise. I hate this...

...but I was fine with Thomas Covenant.

For one thing, he's different. Not in the sense of being reluctant - _all _protagonists of the classic "hero myth" are reluctant - but in the degree and nature of his reluctance. He had some good reasons, the psychological effects of his leprosy chief among them, and I thought author Stephen R. Donaldson - a cut above in his command of fantasy prose - did a good job walking the thin line between whining and willingness.

For another thing, I liked the way Covenant was constantly questioning everything in The Land, the way anyone would in such a situation - i.e., I have much less tolerance for characters that are transported into fantastical scenarios, raise one word of protest, then settle right in for the remainder of the story.

And finally, I could forgive him his trespasses. Here, I'm talking about the plot point early in the first book where Thomas Covenant does something that causes many readers to condemn and dismiss him for the rest of the trilogy. Here's my take on this plot point, easily the most polarizing event of the story, as I wrote in a previous thread:

The way I saw it, on top of all the things mentioned by others (extreme disorientation, sudden health) _Thomas Covenant didn't believe he was experiencing reality_, i.e., he didn't know whether he was awake or even alive. To put it more simply, as far as he was concerned, it was all just some sort of elaborate and inexplicable dream, which gave him carte blanche to do anything he wanted. Now, some may argue that even if he thought he was dreaming, this colors his character. However, I tend more toward the philosophical camp that "no crime can be committed in one's mind". And even though his situation did turn out to be another form of reality (unless you interpret The Land to be nothing more than a construct of Covenant's mind), he didn't know it at the time, and later regrets his actions.

Whether he's a whiny, downer, anti-hero (or to what degree) is, of course, a matter of personal interpretation. However, I'll just add that in the long history of "Chosen One" characters, it's pretty much S.O.P. for that character to be reluctant, angry, or (initially, at least) actively against his/her appointed role.

Or, as the title points out right up front, an "Unbeliever".

Todd

P.S. I've read the Trilogy twice, once as a teenager and once as an adult. To me, it still works and I recommend it. I do NOT, however, recommend the _second _chronicles of Thomas Covenant. These sequels were poorly written and a big disappointment.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

This is the series I kept clicking on to get on kindle!  I lost my paperbooks years ago and have refused to re-buy them.

They have been pre-ordered!  Thanks Geoffrey for the head's up!


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I'm pretty much in Todd's camp: I did not _like_ Thomas Covenant, but I felt I _understood_ and wanted to find out what would happen. Yes, there were times I wanted to smack him upside the head, but overall I was quite engrossed by the books. The 2nd trilogy was not quite as good but still worth reading to me, but I never did finish the 3rd trilogy -- I'm not sure how much because of its quality and how much because I didn't feel the need for any more.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

yeah, i'm in the camp of "he's not likeable"  but he works for me.  i like that he questions everything and doesn't just jump into the world around him.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

I originally read the books in the early 80s while still in 9th or 10th grade, then I listened to the unabridged audio versions in 2009.  I think I had a greater appreciation for them the second time around because I was probably too young to fully understand Covenant way back when.  I'm with Todd too: He is difficult to like and hard (but not impossible) to understand, but that's what makes him a great  and interesting character.  He is not for readers who enjoy the get-behind-him-and-cheer heroes.

Also, from the author's web site, he insisted that Random House use a text document he submitted rather than OCR and outsource editing to produce the ebook versions.  This should, in theory, ensure there are few stupid errors.  

Considering the fame of this books, I'm surprised they're only $7.99 each.  If I had to guess beforehand, I would have said  upwards of $11.99 each.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Geemont said:


> Considering the fame of this books, I'm surprised they're only $7.99 each. If I had to guess beforehand, I would have said upwards of $11.99 each.


For reprints of a thirty year old fiction series?! Bite your tongue!  Even The Lord of the Rings series is only $10 for the complete trilogy.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Geemont said:


> Also, from the author's web site, he insisted that Random House use a text document he submitted rather than OCR and outsource editing to produce the ebook versions. This should, in theory, ensure there are few stupid errors.


Good for him.

I'm still not going to read his books, but he should be congratulated for doing this.

Mike


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> For reprints of a thirty year old fiction series?! Bite your tongue!  Even The Lord of the Rings series is only $10 for the complete trilogy.


I gotta agree. . . . $7.99 may even seem high to some. . though at least they're decently sized books. My son was lamenting the other day that Piers Anthony's back catalog of Xanth is on Kindle but at $7.99 a pop he feels like it's too expensive to repurchase all of them. . . . .and there are a _lot_ of them.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I gotta agree. . . . $7.99 may even seem high to some. . though at least they're decently sized books. My son was lamenting the other day that Piers Anthony's back catalog of Xanth is on Kindle but at $7.99 a pop he feels like it's too expensive to repurchase all of them. . . . .and there are a _lot_ of them.


I've also put off buying the Xanth books because of pricing. And because I've changed in how I feel about some of his themes.

But the Covenants are really big paperbacks and I think well worth the 7.99. But that's just my opinion. I'm starting to think that I'm gonna go with paying a penny a page....


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

The Hooded Claw said:


> For reprints of a thirty year old fiction series?! Bite your tongue!


The same publisher, Del Rey, is asking $11.99 for _Dragon's Egg_ by Robert L. Forward, originally published in 1980. That was my benchmark. The only difference is there is no $7.99 mass paperback in print for that book, only a $19.00 trade paperback.


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## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

After my initial revulsion at the suggestion of $11.99, I must admit that it really depends on how you feel about books.  I cheerfully paid $9.99 for some Jeeves books when they were recently Kindleized.  On the other hand, I would NOT have paid anything close to that for eve Jeeves books where I already owned a copy, and probably not if I didn't own 'em but had read 'em.

I cheerfully bought all the Horatio Hornblower books on Kindle for five or six dollars each on Kindle, even though I own and have read them.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

The Hooded Claw said:


> After my initial revulsion at the suggestion of $11.99, I must admit that it really depends on how you feel about books. I cheerfully paid $9.99 for some Jeeves books when they were recently Kindleized. On the other hand, I would NOT have paid anything close to that for eve Jeeves books where I already owned a copy, and probably not if I didn't own 'em but had read 'em.
> 
> I cheerfully bought all the Horatio Hornblower books on Kindle for five or six dollars each on Kindle, even though I own and have read them.


and i refused to buy the hornblower books at that price.


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## flipside (Dec 7, 2011)

Not a big fan of the Thomas Covenant Chronicles.

I mean it was very important back in the day--Donaldson along with Brooks paved the way for US adult fantasy (and alas, also paved the way for the Tolkien derivatives).

I thought Thomas Covenant would be this anti-hero but I think the point of the books is him getting over his misdeeds in the first novel, an artificial redemptive arc.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

Love him, hate him, these books bring back fond memories of high school -- passing the books around, eagerly waiting for the next one in the series, discussing endlessly in between classes and on band trips.  Good times.

I've read them since then, though I don't remember how long ago and it's definitely been awhile.  I'll probably pick up this first trilogy; the second was never my favorite, and I've never tried the relatively recent third.  But I was never as down on Thomas Covenant as I found a lot of people to be once I became an adult and found discussion boards and the like; neither were my schoolmates. We just didn't see it the same back then. And I suppose that's carried forward generally.  I kind of saw it as him freaked out of his mind and not really even realizing what he was doing in the beginning, I guess...


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

I found TC the most frustrating series ever.  I remember throwing a book across the room when they'd spent 300-odd pages on a quest, only to fail it in a few lines. And the answer to the quest was so obvious from about page 3 that I wanted to scream at the characters.

I got ARCs of the most recent trilogy a few years back - lovely hardcopies and I can't even give them away. Nobody wants them!


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 7, 2010)

I read and enjoyed these books years ago, although it took me a second attempt to get through Lord Foul's Bane. Once I did, The Illearth War and The Power that Preserves went much more smoothly. Excellent reads with memorable characters and world. I've re-read them a couple of times, and sometimes leaf through them to certain parts to re-read.

Thomas Covenant was who he was, shaped much by his illness and how society treated him. In the end, he was just the right 'hero' to do what it took to overcome Lord Foul.

The second trilogy was pretty good, but I actually cared less for Linden Avery than I did for Thomas Covenant. She annoyed me. The Ur-Viles, including Vain I thought were quite unique and thought they really added to the story, as did the legends that played into the story, including Kevin Landwaster and Berek Halfhand. The names I think really added a quality--and the fact that some of the major characters/forces had multiple names, depending on who./what race was uttering them.

I started listening to the first novel in the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, but couldn't get through it. Maybe it's like Lord Foul's Bane, but Stephen R. Donaldson is quite slow in writing and I'll wait until the entire set of final books is out before I begin.

In the end, the first trilogy is one of my favorites.


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## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

One thing you have to say for the series: it's memorable.  I remember really disliking him as a character but I found the story very compelling.  I also remember having never read anything quite like it.  It's not one I have any desire to re-read, but it is one of the series that I can remember the most details from after 25 years.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

Interesting! I will check this out.


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 7, 2010)

drenfrow said:


> One thing you have to say for the series: it's memorable. I remember really disliking him as a character but I found the story very compelling. I also remember having never read anything quite like it. It's not one I have any desire to re-read, but it is one of the series that I can remember the most details from after 25 years.


I recall a lot of the details, but I've re-read parts and the first six books, three times (with the 2nd and 3rd, four times over the years.)

Remembering the details 25 years later, after one reading, *drenfrow*, that says a lot about the the writing.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

It's been a long time since I read this series, but I can remember it pretty well.  I didn't like Thomas. . . not so much for his actions but because of his sour attitude about life.  I'm a firm believer in the idea that we all choose our own outlook, and that the people and things around us are powerless to choose it for us unless we let them.  So I'm not going to excuse Thomas for being a bitter, cynical, nasty person just because he had a hard life.  I'm inclined to pity him, actually.

The second series I thought was okay, even though I found my attention wandering at times.  I think it could have been a lot shorter.  I've never felt inclined to read the third.  Nor have I ever felt like rereading the earlier books.  I tried to, a few years ago, and got no farther than about twenty pages into the first one.  Too long-winded and drawn-out, especially since I already knew what would happen.


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## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

I thought the concept behind Thomas Covenant was unique and interesting, but he truly began to wear on me as a character. It wasn't that he was just miserable about the medical condition he suffered, he managed to find misery in just about everything, including himself. By the end of the third book I realized I had just read a true fantasy, because anybody even remotely that narcissistically self loathing would have drowned himself by book number two.


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## Craig Halloran (May 15, 2012)

This is one of my first series reads as well. I remember many of the characters that seemed really cool at the time. Vain, Saltheart Foamfollower, and the Blood Guards. Thomas never bothered me as a character, of course he wasn't my favorite. I started reading Lord Foul's Bane recently, but I just didn't really get into it. Books are written differently now.

It will interesting to see how the book does on Kindle though.  I think it's a good series that many should try out.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

well, the three books showed up on my kindle yesterday.  and i've got 3 "typos" in the first chapter already....  sigh....


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

telracs said:


> well, the three books showed up on my kindle yesterday. and i've got 3 "typos" in the first chapter already.... sigh....


"Foul Editor's Bane"!

Todd


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Todd Trumpet said:


> "Foul Editor's Bane"!
> 
> Todd


*giggle*

yeah....


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## Guest (May 21, 2012)

I read the Lord Foul's Bane etc when they first came out. I actually like Covenant as a character. For me the series took a bit of a nose dive when Linden Avery became POV. She's far too verbose and does tend to make a mountain out of a mole hill. That said, I really admire Donaldson's bravery as a writer. He does all the things you're warned against, such as using an exotic word when a common one would do just as well, and he has extremely conflicted characters who exasperate the heck out of most readers. 

He's a write who knows how to hit high points, though, and he's a master of heaping tension upon tension (I'm thinking more of his The Gao series here).

I've read the three current novels in the Last Chronicles series so far. At times they are heavy going, but just as with the second chronicles, Donaldson hits some great climactic moments.

I'm not at all enamoured of much of the fantasy scene these days. I've not yet found anyone to replace David Gemmell. Besides Joe Abercrombie, Stephen Donaldson is perhaps the only living fantasy author I have any time for at the moment.


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

derekprior said:


> I've read the three current novels in the Last Chronicles series so far. At times they are heavy going, but just as with the second chronicles, Donaldson hits some great climactic moments.


How would you rank/rate "The Last Chronicles" in relation to the other two?

The 2nd trilogy was a _big _step down for me. Not just the main character, but the people/events surrounding her. It seemed like a lot of fantasy folderol without a fiddledeedee of foundation.

Thus, I've been avoiding the final chronicles, where reviews (at least, on Amazon) are mixed at best. Besides, the last couple books I read by Donaldson were the "Mordant's Need" duology ("The Mirror of Her Dreams" and "A Man Rides Through") which set a world record for Introspection By A Main Character In A Fantasy Novel.

I mean, if you thought _Thomas Covenant_ asked a lot of questions...

Todd


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## Craig Halloran (May 15, 2012)

Todd Trumpet said:


> How would you rank/rate "The Last Chronicles" in relation to the other two?
> 
> The 2nd trilogy was a _big _step down for me. Not just the main character, but the people/events surrounding her. It seemed like a lot of fantasy folderol without a fiddledeedee of foundation.
> 
> ...


I stopped at One Tree, but I was in high school at the time. Really dragged for me. I loved Vane or Vain in the Woundedland.


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## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

I read "Lord Foul's Bane" and part of "The Illearth War," but I just couldn't get into it.  Covenent was unlikeable, sure, but that wasn't what bothered me.  In my case, I just felt like it was too much of a Cold War piece of fiction for my taste--a common problem for me, largely because of my age.  You had things like a man being unwillingly thrust into a nonsensical situation and being told the fate of the world depended on him, the underlying theme of inaction being just as damaging, and the enemy who never shows himself.  I think you had to be there.


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

Kathelm said:


> You had things like a man being unwillingly thrust into a nonsensical situation and being told the fate of the world depended on him... and the enemy who never shows himself.


Worked for Tolkien!

But I get it: Some people just don't like Thomas Covenant and/or his story. It's subjective, of course...

...but I still think the original (first) chronicles are a fine fantasy read.

Todd

P.S. Continuing the "opinions are by their very nature subjective" theme, I got an email this morning about a (rare) review i wrote on Amazon _over a year ago_. Somebody left a comment that said my assessment of the work as "boring" was based on "an aesthetic fallacy" - namely that my opinion did not match his. Uh, I'm pretty sure that's why they call it "opinion"!


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## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

> Worked for Tolkien!


Yes, but the key word here is nonsense. For Bilbo, it's nonsense to leave the Shire and go on some crazy adventure because he's a sensible Hobbit and doesn't have time for that sort of tomfoolery, dagnabbit. Frodo held similar sentiments, but was somewhat less reluctant. Aragorn, meanwhile, just didn't see why he was so great that the world depended on him. But they all believed that the world and its problems were real and needed to be solved.

If Covenant were in Frodo's place, he would have called Gandalf a crazy old man and kicked him out of Bag End, then spent the evening shaving with a rusty razor. He didn't view it as nonsense in the sense of "that's a stupid idea and I want no part of it," but rather, "No. I'm dreaming. Get out." He completely rejected the premise of the story, and was dragged through as an unwilling protagonist. He spent the entire first book (at least) in an existential crisis.

That's why I liken it to the Cold War, because that's how a lot of people drafted into Vietnam felt. It's a perfectly valid literary technique and cultural reflection, but I just couldn't relate.


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

Kathelm said:


> But they all believed that the world and its problems were real and needed to be solved.


I think this key difference (and well put, BTW) is one of the key reasons I _liked _"The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever".

First, let's get relative: LOTR is my favorite reading experience of all time and, no, of course Thomas Covenant doesn't reach that altitude. That said, I still liked it more than many more famous trilogies in the same relative neighborhood:

I liked it better than "DUNE".

I liked it better than "FOUNDATION".

I liked it better than "HIS DARK MATERIALS".

And your observation about Thomas Covenant - The Unbeliever, after all - not believing that he was experiencing reality is one of the main reasons.

Why?

Here's why: I actually found myself _better _able to relate, or empathize, with his predicament. In most fantasy tales, the protagonist is an organic member of the setting, i.e., on a most fundamental level of character/environment, he/she _belongs _there. By definition, it's the character's world (if not their preferred circumstance). That's fine, and the majority of stories are, of necessity, just like this (and, of course, I've enjoyed many of them). But when I occasionally ponder what it would be like to be thrust into a heroic fantasy situation, I don't start by saying, "Okay, I'm an elf with blacksmithing skills who grew up high in a giant tree..." No, I think, "What if it were _me _in that world - with my own history and knowledge and thoughts intact?" In this way, it's naturally easier to personalize and viscerally experience the "What if?" scenario. In other words, "What if I - the ordinary "I" - were suddenly plopped down in this _extra_ordinary situation?"

Which is exactly what happens to Thomas Covenant.

"How would I react?"

With disbelief and resistance and anger, I think...

...just like Thomas Covenant.

And eventually, in the only way available to make sense of the overwhelming nonsense...

...acceptance.

Thomas and Frodo both had major ring issues.

But they both got the job done in the end.

Todd


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## GPB (Oct 2, 2010)

I loved these books when I was a kid, and Covenant was one of my favorite characters. Yes, he was bitter and cynical and managed to find misery and existential angst in everything -- sounds like me as a teenager! Moreover, at a time when I was reading any epic fantasy I could find, Donaldson was able to use the tropes and do the world-building I loved, while at the same time offering an experience that felt completely different. I think it's when a writer hits that "more of what I want, but different" sweet spot that a book is most memorable.


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## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

> Here's why: I actually found myself better able to relate, or empathize, with his predicament. In most fantasy tales, the protagonist is an organic member of the setting, i.e., on a most fundamental level of character/environment, he/she belongs there. By definition, it's the character's world (if not their preferred circumstance). That's fine, and the majority of stories are, of necessity, just like this (and, of course, I've enjoyed many of them). But when I occasionally ponder what it would be like to be thrust into a heroic fantasy situation, I don't start by saying, "Okay, I'm an elf with blacksmithing skills who grew up high in a giant tree..." No, I think, "What if it were me in that world - with my own history and knowledge and thoughts intact?" In this way, it's naturally easier to personalize and viscerally experience the "What if?" scenario. In other words, "What if I - the ordinary "I" - were suddenly plopped down in this extraordinary situation?"


Yeah, I can respect that logic. I'm the opposite way. I don't really get into portal fantasy. For me, fantasy isn't about finding something to relate to, but finding something interesting to think about. I enjoy the exercise of wondering what it would be like to be a blacksmith elf from the treetops.

But of course everyone's different and that's why we have genres and subgenres.


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## smallblondehippy (Jan 20, 2012)

Todd Trumpet said:


> How would you rank/rate "The Last Chronicles" in relation to the other two?
> 
> The 2nd trilogy was a _big _step down for me. Not just the main character, but the people/events surrounding her. It seemed like a lot of fantasy folderol without a fiddledeedee of foundation.
> 
> ...


I loved the first series. Definitely one of the best fantasy series ever. But the second series was too full of self-indulgent, whiny, drama-queen Linden Avery. And as for the last series....oh dear. I was really excited when I heard this series was coming out but I've been so dissappointed. Again, it is full of whiny, drama-queen Linden Avery and the books are just boring. And difficult to understand. And lacking in any of the magic that made the first series so good. Need I go on?

I'm glad they have come out on Kindle but I think the 7.99 price tag is too steep. But then, I'm a bit of a cheapskate and think any ebook priced over 2.99 is too much!


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

Kathelm said:


> Yeah, I can respect that logic. I'm the opposite way. I don't really get into portal fantasy... I enjoy the exercise of wondering what it would be like to be a blacksmith elf from the treetops.


For the record, I enjoy putting on the occasional pair of imaginary elf ears myself...

...but I _really _enjoyed learning a new phrase today: "Portal fantasy".

If only!

Todd


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## Todd Trumpet (Sep 7, 2011)

smallblondehippy said:


> And as for the last series....oh dear. I was really excited when I heard this series was coming out but I've been so dissappointed. Again, it is full of whiny, drama-queen Linden Avery and the books are just boring. And difficult to understand. And lacking in any of the magic that made the first series so good. Need I go on?


THUNK!

That was the sound of another nail being put in the coffin of me-ever-reading-the-last-chronicles-of-Thomas-Covenant.

Todd


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> I was wandering around Amazon and I just noticed that Random House is FINALLY releasing The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever as ebooks. Lord Foul's Bane, The Illearth War and Power That Preserves are going to be released on May 16th for $7.99 a pop.


But then I couldn't throw Thomas Covenant against the wall and stomp on it--or not without damaging my Kindle anyway.


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