# My book is "Literary". Is there a place for me in this brave new Indie world



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

So, the backstory:

I wrote my book MISISIPI between 2008 and 2012. That's 4 years, not 4 months. I'm not a word-churning super machine, turning out an endless stream of easy-to-digest, hard-not-to-like stories of plucky heroines, buff heroes and sweaty rolls in the haystack (no offense to those types of books or their creators).

I submitted to over 50 agents and publishers in the US, UK and Ireland between Feb and Sep 2012. When I got nada interest, I decided not to prolong the nail-biting and to self-publish in order to have some form of closure.

I did all the things I was supposed to do: nice-looking cover, proper edits and formatting, Facebook and Twitter, send to reviewers and bloggers, engage with other writers and readers on various social media, go easy on the hard-sell etc etc.

Now, 6 months on, I am completely exasperated.

My KDP Select 5 free days garnered only 700 or so total downloads. I read about other new authors coming at this with a similar 'cold start' as myself getting 10K plus downloads on ONE single day of KDP Select free.

I still took my 700 downloads as a god start and waited several weeks for some reviews to start cropping up. To date, I estimate perhaps 3 - tops - reviews arrived from such readers.

I have sold approximately 50 copies on all platforms to date. I have started uploading the book in serialization form on both Amazon (99c each) and Smashwords (free across the premium catalog). With 3 parts of 6 now live, I estimate about 400 copies out there. Yet 1 month after I started, there has been no discernible increase in my Twitter or Facebook activity, no buzz of any kind on any other sites, no emails, no extra sales of the full paid novel.

I know that building a platform takes time, sometimes a lot of time! Yet I see other newbie authors with single books who in matter of a few weeks amass FB likes and Twitter follows in the 1000s, ride into the top 5000 of the Amazon charts and gain Amazon reviews in the 100s and scores of blog reviews.

So I wonder if there is some magic lever I was supposed to press that I didn't know existed.

Or is it because my book is a "literary" thriller (someone else's assertion but one I cannot refute) and therefore too niche to be received in the same way as the more easy-to-classify, easy-to-digest, easy-to-like counterparts.

I know my book is good. Others have told me it's very good. I have faith in my book and the story it tells and how it tells it. I also know that it's not a difficult, specialist or quirky book. 

It's just a quiet child and would probably have it's lunch money stolen if I had lunch money to send it to school with.

Ok. Whinge over. Any thoughts/advice/experiences?

Mike


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> So, the backstory:
> 
> I wrote my book MISISIPI between 2008 and 2012. That's 4 years, not 4 months. I'm not a word-churning super machine, turning out an endless stream of easy-to-digest, hard-not-to-like stories of plucky heroines, buff heroes and sweaty rolls in the haystack (no offense to those types of books or their creators).
> 
> ...


Many of your issues are apparent in your reviews. None of those who reviewed your book (who were unknown to you) agreed with its classification.

I am put off by your spelling of Mississippi. It gives an instant impression of ineptitude when associated with a book described as being about New Orleans and Katrina. Why did you choose to title your book with such a misspelling?


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

The history of your books sounds much like mine, except I spent less than a year writing it and never tried for traditional publishing. So, I should say the history of your ebook sounds a lot like mine. My decision has been to keep plugging away on the sequel. I'm also going to do a print copy soon. Let me know if you come up with any brilliant suggestions.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Welcome to the world of literary fiction, my friend!

The sad fact is that there just aren't a lot of readers out there for the kind of writing we love to do.  Lit may be the least-red category of all fiction, so you need to manage your expectations for your sales.  50 sales of a lit title in six months is actually pretty respectable.  Does it help you at all to know that even among the traditionally published, writers of literary fiction never expect to quit their day jobs?  It's just accepted that you can't make a living writing lit fic, so don't even try.

Most of the lit writers who are able to quit and write full-time are earning the majority of their income by writing commercial fiction on the side.  That's what I'm doing.  I sell one copy of my lit title for about every 1000 copies of my two commercial titles.  I will be quitting my day job within a year to write full-time, all indie, and that's because of the success of my historical fiction, not my lit fic.  That's the way I always expect it to be.  My personal career plan is: two new commercial titles come out before I even get to start a new lit title, and when I start to lose momentum on the lit title and I'm not writing it frantically anymore (as you noted, it usually takes time to develop this kind of story) I write two more commercial titles before I can get back into the lit one.  I like to write lit more -- much more -- so using it as a carrot to get to the reward of writing my lit stuff is effective. 

You may be groaning at the prospect of "having" to write commercial fiction, so let me assure you that you do not have to write romances, or zombie books, or whatever popular thing you just can't force your interest in.  Try historical fiction.  It has some very close ties to literary fiction, and historical fiction fans, though demanding and sometimes vicious, are more open than many others to authors with a more literary style, so you can work a lot of the things you love about lit into your commercial writing.  This will give you some good crossover, too, to literary readers, who will in turn be more likely to pick up your commercial historical fiction if it's got some of what they like in it.  Hey, Hilary Mantel won the Mann Booker a couple of years ago with a historical novel.  You can see how open both genres are to one another's influences.

Plus, best of all, you're writing fiction based on past events.  You already know what's going to happen, what the plot twists are, and how it all ends.  Your story is pre-outlined for you.  You can zip through a book in a few months.  I wrote The Crook and Flail in about three weeks of steady work, but it took me two years to write Baptism for the Dead.

If you want to make a living off of writing, you really should consider the possibilities historical fiction can offer you.  Do not expect it to happen from the literary fiction; nobody does, even out of New York.  The only chance you have there is to win some major awards with your lit, and I don't think the major awards have progressed to the point that they'll really consider self-published work, even though some of them do technically accept it.  I think that will change one day soon, but we're not there yet, so you can't count on awards.

If you don't want to make a living off of writing, then let me assure you that 50 sales in six months is way better than most lit fic authors do from small presses, so you're ahead of the curve already, and you should keep doing what you're doing and enjoy the good reviews as they trickle in.    Now I'm going to buy your book, because it looks really good.

Cheers!


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 25/9/2018_


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi DarkScribe.

The "classification" of Misisipi, be that as a straight-up Romance or Mystery or Procedural novel is something beyond my control, as is any preconceptions that readers bring to the experience. The Amazon classifications are very rigid and I followed advice to try and be a granular as I could be when assigning mine. I've tried as much as possible in the book desc to let people know what they can expect. Apart from one or two reviews by readers who didn't get what THEY expected, the overall reception has been positive and recognizes that there's a lot going on under the hood. I am happy to cop to a charge of "too much"; better that than a charge of "too little."

The stylized title is deliberate and I agree that some might construe that as ignorance on my part. It fits the theme of the story and opinion among other writers was split between loving it and hating it. Only 1 out of perhaps 20 said that it would be mistaken as ineptitude.

Mike


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi ElHawk

You make a very enticing argument for entering the HistFic genre. I might be tempted expect that about 60% of my 4 years was probably on research and accuracy and I came to learn that I loath research 

I'm not trying to make a modest living or even quit my day job. My reason for griping is my complete puzzlement at how I cannot seem to reach the readers who would get a kick out of my work or get any kind of reaction (good or bad, I welcome any. ANY) from those whom I might have to date. I know the fault lies not in my story, my writing or the package. So either I am missing some glaringly obvious trick or my book is just destined to lie in limbo because of the current make-up of the Indie/Kindle landscape.

I've got a kick-ass chick-lit story that I may write under a pseudonym and a time-travel novella that might be worth a punt on Kindle singles.

As you said, diversify or die. Very good advice.

I hope you enjoy MISISIPI. Please react after 

Mike


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Sapphire

The only new idea I had recently was the serialization. I noted how Hugh Howey's Wool grew in pieces. I decided that  maybe taking my "daunting" 150K word story and making it more palatable to the "light snackers" might yield some kind of breakthru so I am doing a retro-serialization. Also it allows to better manage a mix of free and lower pricing across the 6 parts rather than continually price-changing my single version.

So, far I've had 400 downloads of 3 parts on the Smashwords side. The stats allow me better judge the takeup and keepup rate as people start reading. If nothing else, at least I've reached a few 100 more people. That's good. But what I really want (and what my true issue is I guess) is to see some form of reaction (good, bad, hateful, derisive, resentful, cheated, adoring - I don't care care. I want any of them, all of them). 

Mike


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Personally if your book is lit I would hire a publicist firm.  Book Sparks is good. They are pricey, but I think they might be able to hit your market.

My BFF Steena Holmes, wrote a women's fiction/lit book and she invested the $$ and they really helped her find her readers, her market.  Now she's a bestseller and she got an agent and a print deal with Amazon.

You need to find out who your readers are, and find a way to engage them. I guarantee you they are not on twitter and facebook.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Estelle

I will deffo look into the LibraryThing thing (!). Wasn't aware of that.

Cheers
Mike


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm going to start with the bad news ... Literary is hard to sell for self-published authors. You have some writers who can do it and succeed, while you have others who can't -- in that way, it's like every other genre, but Lit can (at times) seem like a proverbial "catch all" and good novels with strong hooks can get lost in the sea of other options. 

When I started out, I thought I was literary, too ... the truth is, while I have done well in Literary, I do equally as well in Contemporary and Women's Fiction.  So, the first thing you need to do is play with the categories so you have a presence the ones that speak to your novel.  If you're comparing yourself to books like Gone Girl, The Time Traveller's Wife and TGWTDT, you should be promoting your book as a hybrid and seek to crossover (GG is mystery, TTTW is women's upmarket, TGWTDT is whatever it is).  Being Literary and Literary alone will scare off readers -- don't know why that is ... but Lit tends to come off as highbrow and intimidating, it's a hard-to-peg-down genre.    

The "cold start" is equally as hard ... you need to get some blog exposure.  Not your own -- but review blogs.  This takes time, but this is also where you'll get a lot of reviews -- and those reviews turn your "cold start" into something much more -- they will open the door to paid promotions, which is where Lit Fic can shine.

Your free days ... naturally, this is harder now than it ever was before.  A lot of the top places to promote have closed their doors due to Amazon's changes.  But, given that, I'd say 700 in five days is a pretty strong promo in the current "free climate"...however, it's true, months ago those 700 would have maybe been 30,000.  You can't beat yourself up over that ... things change and they are beyond your control.  

I would say, however, if you're looking to build a fan base ... limit FREE to special occasions. Most of those 700 people will never read you novel (I say this as someone who has had over 30k free downloads and 40 reviews).  It's not the smartest way to get the reviews ... there are better options, like the bloggers.

And most importantly, have patience.  This is universal, no matter what you write.  My first novel did well, my second did much better -- I think most everyone here would attest to experiencing the same.  Building a readership is a slow burn.  Your first book will likely be your loss-leader and experience-builder.  Just start writing the next novel, and try really hard to do it in less time.  

Best of luck ... and I'm always available via PM if you need more advice since we both write in the same wheelhouse.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

CD

Thanks for the honest input.

On the issue of effective title - how about "Wool", to name only one topical example? Your thoughts.

Since very few titles can encapsulate the kernel of a story ("The Hundred-Year-Old Man Who Climbed Out of the Window and Disappeared") then is it better to have a wooly (non-specific but genre-safe, not Hugh Howeyish) title that means everything, anything and nothing at all depending on how you read it or to have a unique and intriguing title that is risky for all that?

Also, if there is a specific element in the blurb that is confusing, please do cite it. I agree, confusing is bad - always.

Mike


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Vivi_Anna said:


> Personally if your book is lit I would hire a publicist firm. Book Sparks is good. They are pricey, but I think they might be able to hit your market.
> 
> My BFF Steena Holmes, wrote a women's fiction/lit book and she invested the $$ and they really helped her find her readers, her market. Now she's a bestseller and she got an agent and a print deal with Amazon.
> 
> You need to find out who your readers are, and find a way to engage them. I guarantee you they are not on twitter and facebook.


Does BookSparks work with self-published authors then? I know I've checked them out before, but I assumed they wouldn't, since their client list is mostly trad pub.

But wow, I am drooling over their client list!!! They look like they do very well for the upmarket women's fic crowd.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm surprised at the amount of people stating the title puts them off. I assumed the misspelling was deliberate the moment I saw it. I agree that you should try to market this in other categories. From the blurb it doesn't sound like lit fic to me. Without reading it I'd go with suspense or just straight contemporary fiction.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Italia.

I'll respond in pieces to the excellent points you made, since I'll tend to ramble if I go beyond the standard pane size.

I hate the term Literary Fiction. I hate the artificial distinction between "literary" and "genre". I think it gives an unfair impression of snobbishness by the former on the latter. I don't fault the term its usage or its users (myself included) and I appreciate that we all have to use them as a form of descriptive shorthand and I will continue to do so and I will understand that others are using them to that effect and not in any pejorative way. 

I don't consider myself a literary writer. I wrote the story that presented itself to me in the best way I could, seeing my own style evolve as I did. I never once thought "I am writing literary fiction" at any time. When I was done, I didn't review it and think "Hmm, could be less lit and more genre" and then seek to excise the "lit" parts to make it more marketable. It is what it is. A story. I am what I am. A storyteller.

Equally, I don't consider myself a literary fiction reader. I read stories that I expect are well written, engaging and deal with subjects that I know will interest me. I didn't read Twilight. I read "The Historian" (didn't like it one bit btw, so there!). I read Gone Girl and thought it was reasonably good. I love early Stephen King but I don't consider it genre. A novel like Misery is great storytelling and great thematically. Some people would call it his most "literary" work. But that would be unfair to all his other great "genre" pieces.

Can't it all just be storytelling?

Mike


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Coming from a different angle, I just read the blurb and was intrigued.  I read a sample of Chapter 1 and was compelled to buy the book.  So there you go.  I did not see Romance or Literary in the blurb though, I saw mystery.  I bought.  HOWEVER, if I were just cruising through the Amazon bookstore and ran across the title, I know I wouldn't give it a second look.  The spelling actually makes me bristle.  It hurt to look at.  We are so ingrained with the various versions of how to spell Mississippi (Mi SS i SS i PP i or Mi crooked letter, crooked letter i) that to see it spelled wrong is such a bold fashion is a huge turn off.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Deanna

Given your location, can we cite you as the definitive and authoritative final word on the thorny issue of my title? 

Mike



Deanna Chase said:


> I'm surprised at the amount of people stating the title puts them off. I assumed the misspelling was deliberate the moment I saw it. I agree that you should try to market this in other categories. From the blurb it doesn't sound like lit fic to me. Without reading it I'd go with suspense or just straight contemporary fiction.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Judi.

Thanks for seeing beyond the title and liking what you saw. Fair point on your reaction to the spelling. There is a long and convoluted story to the genesis of the title which I won't go into here just yet (or ever maybe). Suffice to say I never intended it to be polarizing or off putting in the way that it has become. I appreciate that all aspects of any book (cover, title, desc, writing style, the actual story) are received subjectively by the reader. There is no such think as the perfect combo of all of the above. As I said in a earlier post, it is difficult to find a mix that pleases everyone (or at least displeases the least of them) without running the risk of being bland and lost in the crowd altogether. Perversely, I'm growing the accept - even like - the notoriety and double-takes that the title garners.

Is that wrong of me?

Mike



Judi Coltman said:


> Coming from a different angle, I just read the blurb and was intrigued. I read a sample of Chapter 1 and was compelled to buy the book. So there you go. I did not see Romance or Literary in the blurb though, I saw mystery. I bought. HOWEVER, if I were just cruising through the Amazon bookstore and ran across the title, I know I wouldn't give it a second look. The spelling actually makes me bristle. It hurt to look at. We are so ingrained with the various versions of how to spell Mississippi (Mi SS i SS i PP i or Mi crooked letter, crooked letter i) that to see it spelled wrong is such a bold fashion is a huge turn off.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

I like the title. It made me stop and bristle. And in the unending battle for eyeballs, that's a good thing. Now describe your book's plot in a single sentence. That's how much more time a creative title will buy you.

B.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

In acknowledgement of points that Deanna and Italia made...

Given that part of my intent with this thread was to explore the hard time that Literary/Contemporary/Crossover fiction books have breaking out in the genre-heavy landscape of Indie publishing right now, can I posit that perhaps the next big shift in Indie publishing needs to be such works finding their place in the sun?

My fellow lit-writers who have spoken up so far have all acknowledged how overlooked this area is. We need a revolution then. Do we need to instigate it ourselves rather than wait for someone to find us. 

We are the change we've been waiting for, right? We are the ones we seek, no? (Now, that's a literary line!)

Thoughts?


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

"When a childhood tragedy and its bloody aftermath catch up with her, a woman's husband must fight the forces from her past, and the impending threat of Hurricane Katrina, to save her."

Still reading?



B. Justin Shier said:


> I like the title. It made me stop and bristle. And in the unending battle for eyeballs, that's a good thing. Now describe your book's plot in a single sentence. That's how much more time a creative title will buy you.
> 
> B.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

CD

Thanks again for the honest assessment. I'll be sure to review the blurb and try coming at it from your perspective.
Can you recommend other books whose blurbs you felt nailed it in what I'm trying to achieve?

Cheers again
Mike



cdstephens said:


> The difference between "Wool" and "Misisipi" is the difference between apples and oags. I would have never bought "Wool" based on the title or the cover. I only bought it (actually, I probably downloaded it when it was free) after finding about it on this board. "Wool" was a short story, maybe a novella, and the reason for the title first became apparent about halfway through. I have no idea when the reason for your title is explained, but I wouldn't read a couple of hundred pages to find out.
> 
> Had "Wool" been sold to Ridley Scott as an original screenplay I feel certain it would have been retitled before being released as a movie. Even now there will be meetings and arguments at Fox over the title. If the book continues selling well and solidly establishes the brand, they may keep the title. If they perceive there is a much larger audience that never heard of the book, then they may well come up with a new title. I think the book was published in Germany as "Silo," which to me would make a better movie poster.
> 
> ...


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

cdstephens said:


> As I recall, the most damage from Katrina was not the hurricane itself, but the rising water that resulted from the failure of the levies and the fact that much of New Orleans was low-lying. There are infinite words and phrases that play on that, and that might also match your story.
> 
> There is no specific element in the blurb that's confusing, it's all of it. To me, it's rambling and incoherent, a series of questions interspersed with taglines interspersed with snippets of a blurb.


Personally, I was intrigued by the blurb.

And sort of off topic, the destruction in _New Orleans_ was largely due to the levee failure. The destruction to the the rest of the gulf coast had everything to do with the Cat 5 hurricane. Entire cities were wiped out, especially on the Mississippi coast.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Italia. (Part 2)

I'm off KDP Select since Feb and won't be going back. I was lucky enough to catch sight of a Goodreads user who shelved my book on one of the free days. I counted that she shelved over 50 books that day so that kind of opened my eyes to the value of KDP Select big time! I count myself lucky if I got any reviews from anyone from the free days.

Instead, I'm breaking the book into 6 parts (the entire novel's superstructure is constructed that was anyway so it was a natural and easy thing to do.) Thereafter I intend to make 3 of the parts free (if I can get my Amazon permafree efforts to work) and three low priced and then reprice the full book accordingly. It might work, it might not. We'll see.

Mike


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Italiahaircolor said:


> When I started out, I thought I was literary, too ... the truth is, while I have done well in Literary, I do equally as well in Contemporary and Women's Fiction. So, the first thing you need to do is play with the categories so you have a presence the ones that speak to your novel. If you're comparing yourself to books like Gone Girl, The Time Traveller's Wife and TGWTDT, you should be promoting your book as a hybrid and seek to crossover (GG is mystery, TTTW is women's upmarket, TGWTDT is whatever it is). Being Literary and Literary alone will scare off readers -- don't know why that is ... but Lit tends to come off as highbrow and intimidating, it's a hard-to-peg-down genre.


Agreed here. If you have cross-over with any other genres you can use (and it sounds like you do) then use them! Many literary books can cross-over with genre fiction, since "literary" is only a writing style, and can be mashed up with pretty much any genre -- romance, zombies, historical, whatever.

Though on the other hand, I don't know about you guys, but I've found that I can't market a literary/women's fic book to people who prefer mainstream women's fic. Most of them tend not to like it. It's not angsty enough, there's not enough dialogue, it wasn't the kind of love triangle they expected, "not enough passion" (true quote, lol!). While I know there's nothing wrong with my book being exactly the way it is, which is quiet and thoughtful and a little bit different. The fact of it is that people who prefer genre fiction do not appreciate books written in a literary style. People who read "literary" books, no matter which genre it's mashed up with, do. They're a small market and they're hard to find.

So to the OP, I don't know. It sounds like your book is doing perfectly average for a lit fic book.

Also, buy some cheap book promotion. ENT did very well for me! They sold TWICE as many books for me in 24 hours than I was able to sell on my own in 8 months.

Will the people who bought them actually like them? Who knows, lol!

As for the title, it didn't exactly put me off, but after having read the blurb, I didn't really get it either, much less the misspelling of the word. Your title is an important piece of real estate in your book's marketing plan, and you have to make sure it's selling the book for you.

I like your cover, and I didn't have a problem with the blurb.


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree that literary novels or those with a more literary tone are a difficult sell. Favorable reviews may be indicative of a writer's ability to write/tell a good story, but not necessarily possess the prose style to interest a wider audience. Writing in a different, possibly lighter genre is sound advice. Whatever you do, _don't_ get caught up with just the one book, but keep writing the next and the next one after that. The book in question may pick up interest when you have other books available and readers look for your other works.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

True Deanna. The state of MisSisSipPi saw some biblical devastation. Waveland to cite one.

Since the book is not entirely about Hurricane Katrina (we get to NOLA at the 50% mark) then marketing it as purely a disaster-set thriller or commentary on Katrina would be misrepresenting it.

Mike



Deanna Chase said:


> Personally, I was intrigued by the blurb.
> 
> And sort of off topic, the destruction in _New Orleans_ was largely due to the levee failure. The destruction to the the rest of the gulf coast had everything to do with the Cat 5 hurricane. Entire cities were wiped out, especially on the Mississippi coast.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Laura

Nice to know I'm not alone in being misunderstood 

Mike



Laura Rae Amos said:


> Agreed here. If you have cross-over with any other genres you can use (and it sounds like you do) then use them! Many literary books can cross-over with genre fiction, since "literary" is only a writing style, and can be mashed up with pretty much any genre -- romance, zombies, historical, whatever.
> 
> Though on the other hand, I don't know about you guys, but I've found that I can't market a literary/women's fic book to people who prefer mainstream women's fic. Most of them tend not to like it. It's not angsty enough, there's not enough dialogue, it wasn't the kind of love triangle they expected, "not enough passion" (true quote, lol!). While I know there's nothing wrong with my book being exactly the way it is, which is quiet and thoughtful and a little bit different. The fact of it is that people who prefer genre fiction do not appreciate books written in a literary style. People who read "literary" books, no matter which genre it's mashed up with, do. They're a small market and they're hard to find.
> 
> ...


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thayer

What you have said (all true btw) - is it as much a commentary on the tastes and proclivities of the current Kindle reading community? Do you think that only "dumbed-down" stories and styles have any chance right now?

Mike



Thayer Berlyn said:


> I agree that literary novels or those with a more literary tone are a difficult sell. Favorable reviews may be indicative of a writer's ability to write/tell a good story, but not necessarily possess the prose style to interest a wider audience. Writing in a different, possibly lighter genre is sound advice. Whatever you do, _don't_ get caught up with just the one book, but keep writing the next and the next one after that. The book in question may pick up interest when you have other books available and readers look for your other works.


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## Vivi_Anna (Feb 12, 2011)

Laura Rae Amos said:


> Does BookSparks work with self-published authors then? I know I've checked them out before, but I assumed they wouldn't, since their client list is mostly trad pub.
> 
> But wow, I am drooling over their client list!!! They look like they do very well for the upmarket women's fic crowd.


They worked with Steena when she first selfpubbed Finding Emma. So yes, they will. But I imagine it will be a case by case basis.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

To anyone that was curious to look further into MISISIPI

I should have said:

The 6-parter can be got free over at Smashwords https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/298674 between now and the end of April so please hang onto those hard-earned $$s even as you take a risk on this difficult literary Frankenstein's monster of a novel 

Mike


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

In the "Enough About Me" department.

Still interested to hear peoples thoughts on how to make "literary" the next breakthrough baby in indie pubbing.


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## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> Thayer
> 
> What you have said (all true btw) - is it as much a commentary on the tastes and proclivities of the current Kindle reading community? Do you think that only "dumbed-down" stories and styles have any chance right now?
> 
> Mike


I don't know if it is as much dumbed-down as toned-down. A writer who is, by nature, more stylistically inclined may have some difficulty in reaching an audience that holds an expectation of a fast and easy read. Imagine a writer like Taylor Caldwell, for instance, being as well received today with readers under 35 as she was 40 years ago. We live in a very fast paced world, where the imagination sometimes appears more external (given to us) rather than internal (where it is individually constructed), and I think that is some of the difference. If one looks at the audience in search of something to identify with, a fast pace is identifiable.

But I do not in any way believe that literary writing or tone has been abandoned. Writers such as Anne Rice are testament to this. The issue, I think, is convincing potential audiences that the independent author is as qualified to write literary fiction as the traditionally published writer and sometimes even has more of an advantage of going out on a limb with new and remarkable ideas.


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Estelle

I signed up for the LT giveaway. We are beside each other. You are whuppin my ass by a factor of infinity! Well done 

Mike


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Buttonman88 said:


> In acknowledgement of points that Deanna and Italia made...
> 
> Given that part of my intent with this thread was to explore the hard time that Literary/Contemporary/Crossover fiction books have breaking out in the genre-heavy landscape of Indie publishing right now, can I posit that perhaps the next big shift in Indie publishing needs to be such works finding their place in the sun?
> 
> ...


Part of the problem with this view is that it overlooks one very important issue. Buttonman, you mentioned it yourself earlier in this thread, the artificial divide between genre and lit, and the implication that lit considers itself superior to genre. But the converse is also true. There are a large number of genre readers who look down upon lit fic, too. To many, lit fic is that thing we had to study in high school english, that bored us to tears, because it has no plot and no action and lots of purple prose, and was written by snooty authors in love with their own voice. (I'm not saying that's true, but I think that belief is a very large part of the reason that genre outsells lit by a very large percentage.) It was certainly what I thought when I was in high school, and if I hadn't gone on to study english in university, I'd probably still think that. Unfortunately, once someone has that belief, it's very hard to get them to change their minds. Not just because, generally speaking, people don't like to change their minds, but because they like what they like.

I like mystery, suspense, supernatural, and horror, and I like a good love story, but only if it's mixed in with one of those other genres. Generally speaking, I won't branch out from those, because those are what I like, and since the days of someone else dictating my reading list to me are long gone, I don't have to. I want to read stories that resonate. I don't want to have to plow through purple prose, and I don't want the story to get buried under a ton of metaphor -- basically, I want to read stories where the prose disappears entirely, and I get so caught up in the story, whatever it may be, that I don't even really notice the book at all, just the story.

Again, I know that not all lit fits the perceived stereotype. But, unfortunately, all lit generally does tend to get painted with the same unfortunate brush. And that's what you're fighting against. Not just invisibility, but an active prejudice. Not the inability of the genre-reading public to find your books, but a desire to not find them.


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thayer

Good distinction. I truly believe there is a market (and a large untapped one at that) for writers who put what some might consider to be excessive effort into their prose and their plot. I wish your to have as much success as those efforts deserve.

Now let's go find the goddam discerners!

Mike



Thayer Berlyn said:


> I don't know if it is as much dumbed-down as toned-down. A writer who is, by nature, more stylistically inclined may have some difficulty in reaching an audience that holds an expectation of a fast and easy read. Imagine a writer like Taylor Caldwell, for instance, being as well received today with readers under 35 as she was 40 years ago. We live in a very fast paced world, where the imagination sometimes appears more external (given to us) rather than internal (where it is individually constructed), and I think that is some of the difference. If one looks at the audience in search of something to identify with, a fast pace is identifiable.
> 
> But I do not in any way believe that literary writing or tone has been abandoned. Writers such as Anne Rice are testament to this. The issue, I think, is convincing potential audiences that the independent author is as qualified to write literary fiction as the traditionally published writer and sometimes even has more of an advantage of going out on a limb with new and remarkable ideas.


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

I agree Shayne. I didn't invent the distinction and the associated prejudices. I use the terms as a shorthand because the conversation has no other apt terms that work for everyone.

I have read linear narrative books with a very simple plot that I thought were brilliantly-written and realized (A Simple Plan). Some would call that genre. I just call it great craft. Similarly, the great female authors of their day were writing protean chick-lit but no one calls Austen and Bronte genre writers now.

We need to overcome our differences and embrace our genre brothers and sisters (after they have a nice bath and a solid meal - JOKE!)

Mike



Shayne said:


> Part of the problem with this view is that it overlooks one very important issue. Buttonman, you mentioned it yourself earlier in this thread, the artificial divide between genre and lit, and the implication that lit considers itself superior to genre. But the converse is also true. There are a large number of genre readers who look down upon lit fic, too. To many, lit fic is that thing we had to study in high school english, that bored us to tears, because it has no plot and no action and lots of purple prose, and was written by snooty authors in love with their own voice. (I'm not saying that's true, but I think that belief is a very large part of the reason that genre outsells lit by a very large percentage.) It was certainly what I thought when I was in high school, and if I hadn't gone on to study english in university, I'd probably still think that. Unfortunately, once someone has that belief, it's very hard to get them to change their minds. Not just because, generally speaking, people don't like to change their minds, but because they like what they like.
> 
> I like mystery, suspense, supernatural, and horror, and I like a good love story, but only if it's mixed in with one of those other genres. Generally speaking, I won't branch out from those, because those are what I like, and since the days of someone else dictating my reading list to me are long gone, I don't have to. I want to read stories that resonate. I don't want to have to plow through purple prose, and I don't want the story to get buried under a ton of metaphor -- basically, I want to read stories where the prose disappears entirely, and I get so caught up in the story, whatever it may be, that I don't even really notice the book at all, just the story.
> 
> Again, I know that not all lit fits the perceived stereotype. But, unfortunately, all lit generally does tend to get painted with the same unfortunate brush. And that's what you're fighting against. Not just invisibility, but an active prejudice. Not the inability of the genre-reading public to find your books, but a desire to not find them.


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Thayer Berlyn said:


> But I do not in any way believe that literary writing or tone has been abandoned. Writers such as Anne Rice are testament to this. The issue, I think, is convincing potential audiences that the independent author is as qualified to write literary fiction as the traditionally published writer and sometimes even has more of an advantage of going out on a limb with new and remarkable ideas.


I think the difference here is that Anne Rice isn't marketed as lit. Her stuff has a basis in the supernatural, and that's the angle they take when they market it.

And I would suggest that it's not that audiences need to be convinced that the independent author is qualified to write lit, because trad pubbed lit generally suffers from the same low sales. Lit fic comes with the expectation of a slow story and more effort on the reader's part to get through the story, and overcoming that bias is extremely difficult. Especially in our fast-paced society where we read books in ten minute spurts on the bus, or five minutes waiting in line at the bank.


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Buttonman88 said:


> I agree Shayne. I didn't invent the distinction and the associated prejudices. I use the terms as a shorthand because the conversation has no other apt terms that work for everyone.


I definitely get what you're saying. They are the best terms we have. It's just too bad there isn't a better way to define them - by the best examples of each form, rather than the worst -- so as to remove the bias against both.



Buttonman88 said:


> We need to overcome our differences and embrace our genre brothers and sisters (after they have a nice bath and a solid meal - JOKE!)


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

DarkScribe said:


> Many of your issues are apparent in your reviews. None of those who reviewed your book (who were unknown to you) agreed with its classification.
> 
> I am put off by your spelling of Mississippi. It gives an instant impression of ineptitude when associated with a book described as being about New Orleans and Katrina. Why did you choose to title your book with such a misspelling?


Yep, reminds me of Whatshisname who called his book Pet Sematary&#8230;

All too often nowadays some readers scoff at the writer when they just should give them credit for not being a greater fool than they are themselves. Don't automatically think, "This writer is an idiot," but "What am I not (yet) understanding here."

Sincerely,

A victim


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Shayne said:


> Part of the problem with this view is that it overlooks one very important issue. Buttonman, you mentioned it yourself earlier in this thread, the artificial divide between genre and lit, and the implication that lit considers itself superior to genre. But the converse is also true. There are a large number of genre readers who look down upon lit fic, too. To many, lit fic is that thing we had to study in high school english, that bored us to tears, because it has no plot and no action and lots of purple prose, and was written by snooty authors in love with their own voice. (I'm not saying that's true, but I think that belief is a very large part of the reason that genre outsells lit by a very large percentage.) It was certainly what I thought when I was in high school, and if I hadn't gone on to study english in university, I'd probably still think that. Unfortunately, once someone has that belief, it's very hard to get them to change their minds. Not just because, generally speaking, people don't like to change their minds, but because they like what they like.
> 
> I like mystery, suspense, supernatural, and horror, and I like a good love story, but only if it's mixed in with one of those other genres. Generally speaking, I won't branch out from those, because those are what I like, and since the days of someone else dictating my reading list to me are long gone, I don't have to. I want to read stories that resonate. I don't want to have to plow through purple prose, and I don't want the story to get buried under a ton of metaphor -- basically, I want to read stories where the prose disappears entirely, and I get so caught up in the story, whatever it may be, that I don't even really notice the book at all, just the story.
> 
> Again, I know that not all lit fits the perceived stereotype. But, unfortunately, all lit generally does tend to get painted with the same unfortunate brush. *And that's what you're fighting against. Not just invisibility, but an active prejudice. Not the inability of the genre-reading public to find your books, but a desire to not find them.*


This.

Wow, Shayne! You can write!  This is the best explanation of why lit doesn't sell that I have ever seen.

Suggestion for Mike: Are there some magazines where you could submit a chapter or two? Vanity Fair?


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks Andrew.

I had Pet Sematery thrown at my on another forum where I was told (by this one single poster) that I was a Nobody so I couldn't get away with such stylings whereas SK is a Somebody and only Somebodys got to do that crap.

Love how you did the RHS of your signature. Can I have the code for that part sometime?

Cheers
Mike



Andrew Ashling said:


> Yep, reminds me of Whatshisname who called his book Pet Sematary&#8230;
> 
> All too often nowadays some readers scoff at the writer when they just should give them credit for not being a greater fool than they are themselves. Don't automatically think, "This writer is an idiot," but "What am I not (yet) understanding here."
> 
> ...


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Cherise

VF? As if, lol! Tho I am learning that I have to seek out the more niche bloggers, reviewers and literary book communities online. Ah well, all the mainstream reviewers I approached either ignored me or told me they were too busy.

If anyone has any recommendations based on my book's subject about reviewers who might like this then please post them here.

Mike



Cherise Kelley said:


> This.
> 
> Wow, Shayne! You can write!  This is the best explanation of why lit doesn't sell that I have ever seen.
> 
> Suggestion for Mike: Are there some magazines where you could submit a chapter or two? Vanity Fair?


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Buttonman88 said:


> Thanks Andrew.
> 
> I had Pet Sematery thrown at my on another forum where I was told (by this one single poster) that I was a Nobody so I couldn't get away with such stylings whereas SK is a Somebody and only Somebodys got to do that crap.
> 
> ...


Sent you the code in a PM.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> This.
> 
> Wow, Shayne! You can write!  This is the best explanation of why lit doesn't sell that I have ever seen.


Forgive me if I sound extremely thick, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Come on.....Mississippi is so obviously misspelled on purpose. Anyone who doesn't get that immediately is not the audience for a nuanced literary novel.


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## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Literary fiction typically covers more than one genre. The only thing that makes a book "literary" is the writing style. Literary authors strive for "beauty" in the words, and they try to teach a life lesson in the story. The books are usually character driven more than plot driven. Some people like this - if you've tried to advertise on Bookbub, you know that "literary fiction" is NOT one of the cheaper audiences to advertise to. They charge you a lot.

_Threads:The Reincarnation of Anne Boleyn_ falls under any one of six genres. The style is "literary," but the genre is pretty much whatever you like from among those six choices. The one that sells the most is "historical fiction," so I typically go with that one. Sometimes I opt for "historical fantasy." However, if I was presenting it to a paranormal audience I'd call it "metaphysical" or "visionary fiction" and focus on the reincarnation aspect, rather than the historical aspect.

So I would recommend you cling to a genre OTHER THAN "literary fiction," and use it. Remember: literary fiction is a style, more than a genre. If it's a good story, readers don't care that the author sweat bullets over the word choices to make them "beautiful."


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Adam.

My brother from another mother! But given the title "Buried a man I hated there", I may ask for a paternity test also 

Honestly, cheers! Glad you got the nuance.

Mike



Adam Pepper said:


> Come on.....Mississippi is so obviously misspelled on purpose. Anyone who doesn't get that immediately is not the audience for a nuanced literary novel.


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Nell

I cannot fault your definition, because it's a commonly-held perception about what literary fiction is. I do disagree with your statement about what is, or is not, in actuality "Literary". I think the term itself has become a pinata into which they stuff any book that is not straight-up genre fiction. I think "genre" books can and often do contain great characters as well as plot. Out and out literary books can also suck in their writing, characters and plot when do badly.

I'm with you in trying to find a classification for my book that doesn't go anywhere near the L word. So far I'm stumped.

Mike



Nell Gavin said:


> Literary fiction typically covers more than one genre. The only thing that makes a book "literary" is the writing style. Literary authors strive for "beauty" in the words, and they try to teach a life lesson in the story. The books are usually character driven more than plot driven. Some people like this - if you've tried to advertise on Bookbub, you know that "literary fiction" is NOT one of the cheaper audiences to advertise to. They charge you a lot.
> 
> _Threads:The Reincarnation of Anne Boleyn_ falls under any one of six genres. The style is "literary," but the genre is pretty much whatever you like from among those six choices. The one that sells the most is "historical fiction," so I typically go with that one. Sometimes I opt for "historical fantasy." However, if I was presenting it to a paranormal audience I'd call it "metaphysical" or "visionary fiction" and focus on the reincarnation aspect, rather than the historical aspect.
> 
> So I would recommend you cling to a genre OTHER THAN "literary fiction," and use it. Remember: literary fiction is a style, more than a genre. If it's a good story, readers don't care that the author sweat bullets over the word choices to make them "beautiful."


----------



## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

The cover on the original is just wonderful--one of the best I've seen. I wouldn't be turned off by the misspelled title--looks interesting to me.

If you are going to split up the book, I would:

1. Make the covers of the baby-books as great as the original. Right now, it looks to me like a cut below.
2. Make the first one perma-free, and the other two $1.50.
3. Make the original look like a box set. It will help people should think of the baby-books as stand-alone novels, not as one novel split up into three parts.

Good luck.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Shayne said:


> Forgive me if I sound extremely thick, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.


Nope, no sarcasm!


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Ben

Thanks for the kind words on the cover.

It's kinda hard not to make the baby covers clearly indicate their numerical sequence for thumbnail purposes and for them not to look a big "academic". I wanted to keep the image since it's a key part of my branding but I have to play fair by readers so that they know the baby parts are from the original, not new material. And since they are not stand-alone novels, anything that gives that impression would be disingenuous. Besides, anything is going to look sucky beside the original, right?

I intend to price the books thus:

Original: $4.99

Part 1: Free
Part 2: $0.99
Part 3: Free
Part 4: $1.99
Part 5: Free
Part 6: $2.99

It's taking me ages to get permafree to kick in on Amazon. Sheesh!

Cheers 
Mike



Ben Mathew said:


> The cover on the original is just wonderful--one of the best I've seen. I wouldn't be turned off by the misspelled title--looks interesting to me.
> 
> If you are going to split up the book, I would:
> 
> ...


----------



## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Just to be clear.  Earlier in the thread when I said the title spelling made me bristle, I was not believing the author in anyway is/was illiterate.  Obviously it is spelled that way for a reason.  It makes me bristle because it makes me uncomfortable to physically look at it.  For the record, New Age music (Like Mannheim Steamroller) does the same thing to me. It bugs me at a gut level.  JMHO and I bought the books based on the blurb.  Still think it should be in Mystery category.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Judi.

No offense was taken because none was received  For the record, Sofia Vergara accent is a real turn-off to me in the exact same way and I would have to give a pass to that... otherwise gorgeous lady 

Mike



Judi Coltman said:


> Just to be clear. Earlier in the thread when I said the title spelling made me bristle, I was not believing the author in anyway is/was illiterate. Obviously it is spelled that way for a reason. It makes me bristle because it makes me uncomfortable to physically look at it. For the record, New Age music (Like Mannheim Steamroller) does the same thing to me. It bugs me at a gut level. JMHO and I bought the books based on the blurb. Still think it should be in Mystery category.


----------



## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Judi Coltman said:


> Just to be clear. Earlier in the thread when I said the title spelling made me bristle, I was not believing the author in anyway is/was illiterate. Obviously it is spelled that way for a reason. It makes me bristle because it makes me uncomfortable to physically look at it. For the record, New Age music (Like Mannheim Steamroller) does the same thing to me. It bugs me at a gut level. JMHO and I bought the books based on the blurb. Still think it should be in Mystery category.


I second the vote for putting it in the mystery category. The cover definitely fits there, and the blurb seems to fit most closely there, as well.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

By MYSTERY, do you all mean the genres here on KBoard? Already done.

Thanks for the affirmation tho.



Shayne said:


> I second the vote for putting it in the mystery category. The cover definitely fits there, and the blurb seems to fit most closely there, as well.


----------



## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

.
I looked at the title and here are my quick suggestions (several could easily be duplicates of other comments):
.
-Title: think how to make the title resonate. While the altered spelling is fine, it doesn't give me an eerie feeling to go with the picture nor the jacket copy. Go through "MacBeth" and find a partial sentence that sparks something for you with meaning in this book.
.
-Jacket Copy: the bold text makes me think this is a "macro history of the storm" but the rest of the copy seems like the small confines of a pair of struggling characters (micro). Can you find a gripping passage in your book to lead with instead? Start right off with the characters in dire action that makes reader questions: "I'll pull this trigger on you Mr MC if you come any closer." "Please don't do that, at least not until I get this knife out of my appendix, Mrs. MC.". At the bottom of your copy add in the reader 18+ age warning but less graphic than included in the front matter.
.
-Can you remove references to "Literary"? It can be a deep river but at the surface it's a story and more readers will be interested in it, later when they realize it's literary too they will think "oh, this is cool".
.
-Front matter: Move all the scary copyright info to the back matter (rules say within 10 pages of the text it protects) then just have a one liner at the title page "copyright 2012,3 author" so you cover any preview downloads. Table of Contents goes in the back too. Think of it this way: the reader most likely bought the title with a "one-click purchase" and get annoyed when they have to click six or more times to get through that front matter to the story. 
.
-Categories: Change your romance/m&s/s into "romantic suspense"
.
-I see you have a presence on goodreads .. keep going there. I add friends over there pretty easy if you want, I also run a couple of groups there.
.
-Can you write a short story tied with this book? A scene with a MC from two years prior to this book? A scene of a minor character while she was off-stage in the book? Can you polish up a scene you deleted from the book while editing and expand into 3k-10k story? Make two or three of these branded to match this book and you suddenly have 10-15 more free days to get noticed via KDP.
.
-Keywords: what keywords did you include in kdp? review those and see if any adjustments might help. My first book had a single keyword with seven different words in it because I used spaces instead of commas to separate them - a reader would have to search for that whole nonsense sentence to find it. I fixed that and it helped.
.
.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> I'm not trying to make a modest living or even quit my day job. My reason for griping is my complete puzzlement at how I cannot seem to reach the readers who would get a kick out of my work or get any kind of reaction (good or bad, I welcome any. ANY) from those whom I might have to date.


Well, you've got sixteen reviews after six months, and almost all of them are good. You are reaching readers. You just reach readers slowly in lit fic.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Vivi_Anna said:


> You need to find out who your readers are, and find a way to engage them. I guarantee you they are not on twitter and facebook.


I'm not so sure about that. I think there are lots of people who read lit fic on Twitter and FB, and on Goodreads. You just need to meet them.

Hiring a publicity firm is one way to do it. It's not really necessary, though.



B. Justin Shier said:


> I like the title. It made me stop and bristle. And in the unending battle for eyeballs, that's a good thing.


I agree. The title is strong, precisely because it jumps out and punches you in the face.

On the topic of how you classify your book, I agree with some others who say that you may be going about it wrong. Your blurb and your cover both strongly indicate mystery or thriller, and your comparison of the book to Gone Girl and Dragon Tattoo would lead me to expect an action-packed mystery, too. But Time Traveler's Wife? And you started out by classifying it as literary. Usually people who go looking for "literary fiction" aren't looking for The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo or its ilk. If your book truly is straddling the line between these two genres, you need to make that clearer in your product description/blurb. If it's not, commit wholly to whatever genre is is truly the most like, embrace that, and make it clear. Otherwise you will risk getting more negative comments from readers who feel misled by the packaging of the book and who didn't get what they were expecting.

Of course, that person who called it a romance novel and was griping that it wasn't thrillery enough could just be a griper. They do exist.



Buttonman88 said:


> Thayer
> What you have said (all true btw) - is it as much a commentary on the tastes and proclivities of the current Kindle reading community? Do you think that only "dumbed-down" stories and styles have any chance right now?
> Mike


I know this comment wasn't directed at me, but allow me to correct you all the same.

This is ALWAYS the way it's been in publishing. The fact that commercial/genre/popular fiction outsells literary fiction by an enormous margin is nothing new. This is the way the book economy has worked from the inception of books as an industry. And there is nothing dumbed down about light entertainment. Sometimes we all need to just have a good time.

I'm still going through the thread, so you probably don't want to reply to me just yet.



Thayer Berlyn said:


> But I do not in any way believe that literary writing or tone has been abandoned. Writers such as Anne Rice are testament to this. The issue, I think, is convincing potential audiences that the independent author is as qualified to write literary fiction as the traditionally published writer and sometimes even has more of an advantage of going out on a limb with new and remarkable ideas.


This! Lit fic is probably never going to become a huge thing. It's never going to be a massive money-making genre the way paranormal romance or erotica or mysteries are massive money-making genres. If it even had the potential to get there, the traditional publishers would have brought it to that point decades ago. The challenge for indie authors is in establishing "street cred" on an individual basis with readers, proving that you are as good or better than what comes out of the Big Six. Once the major awards become more welcoming of indie authors that job will get much easier.


----------



## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

JVIN

You've given me a lot to process 

By all means, lets hook up on Goodreads/Twitter/Fb over the next few so I can address what on first look is substantive and good advice. I've printed it for closer examination.

Mike


----------



## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

jvin248 said:


> -Can you remove references to "Literary"? It can be a deep river but at the surface it's a story and more readers will be interested in it, later when they realize it's literary too they will think "oh, this is cool".


The thing is, they won't go "oh, this is cool." People who don't like literary books will still not like literary books, even if they accidentally buy one.

I asked this question once, a long time ago, whether it was better to have a literary book and say so, or not say so. And the verdict was that if it is literary, then say so. Maybe not in those exact words, but say what makes it literary. Is it richly-drawn? Thoughtful? Auspicious? (Just kidding about "auspicious" - it's on Molly Ringwald's new literary novel, and I can't stop rolling my eyes at it, lol!) But you know, all those fancy adjectives the trad pubbers use.

If you don't say that it's going to be a literary read of some sort, sure, readers who might have been deterred by "literary" might buy the book, but they're still going to not like it when they find out it is literary after all. If it really is literary, you can't trick people into thinking it's a fast-paced, plotty, entertainment read. I tried this once -- it doesn't work. They'll buy it, sure, but they'll 3* it and say "this wasn't what I expected."

Now as for categories, that's different. We only have two, so if there's a better fit, then take it. And in the blurb, make sure to describe what kind of experience the reader is going to get.


----------



## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Buttonman88 said:


> By MYSTERY, do you all mean the genres here on KBoard? Already done.
> 
> Thanks for the affirmation tho.


Actually I meant on Amazon. Fiction>Mystery


----------



## MT Berlyn (Mar 27, 2012)

Shayne said:


> I think the difference here is that Anne Rice isn't marketed as lit. Her stuff has a basis in the supernatural, and that's the angle they take when they market it.
> 
> And I would suggest that it's not that audiences need to be convinced that the independent author is qualified to write lit, because trad pubbed lit generally suffers from the same low sales. Lit fic comes with the expectation of a slow story and more effort on the reader's part to get through the story, and overcoming that bias is extremely difficult. Especially in our fast-paced society where we read books in ten minute spurts on the bus, or five minutes waiting in line at the bank.


I may not have been clear. While it is true that Anne Rice's work is not marketed as literary fiction, the _tone_ of her writing is literary, with a good deal of character introspection...a hallmark of literary fiction. An independent author writing in a literary style within a genre (ie: paranormal, romance, etc.) can run into marketing obstacles.


----------



## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

Buttonman88 said:


> Nell
> 
> I cannot fault your definition, because it's a commonly-held perception about what literary fiction is. I do disagree with your statement about what is, or is not, in actuality "Literary". I think the term itself has become a pinata into which they stuff any book that is not straight-up genre fiction. I think "genre" books can and often do contain great characters as well as plot. Out and out literary books can also suck in their writing, characters and plot when do badly.
> 
> ...


This is something that authors often debate, so you do not own the definition of "literary fiction," unfortunately. Most agree that it's a style rather than a genre.

If you can't think of a genre, go with "General fiction." That solves a multitude of problems.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Why all this _sturm und drang_ everywhere over trying to call your literary novels something other than literary? As Laura noted, if your book is actually literary fiction (and while the definition varies, I think most _readers _agree that "literary" = more emphasis on prose/style and a plot that is more character-internalized than externalized) then you're not going to fool anybody by trying to call it something it's not. So you wrote a literary novel, and the odds are against it ever being super-popular and resonating with a very broad range of readers. Suck it up, own it, be proud of what you wrote, call it what it is, and go write some commercial fiction if you want to make money off your books.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Sorry folks

I haven't been on this thread in over three hours. I was busy getting beaten up and then banned from the Absolute Write site over a sock puppet accusation.

Bizarro or what??

https://www.facebook.com/notes/misisipi/no-irish-no-dgs-no-blacklisteds-how-i-got-banned-from-absolutewrite/613595205336092

Mike


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## inspector (Apr 4, 2013)

arketing is always tough. In the paper world it's done in person. If you can't schmooze you can't sell, and you have to get invited to the big party, so if you work for Bowling News that's a start, but it's all face to face. I once did a targeted mailing to 100 agents. Score? 0. Not even a form reply. I also make artists books, and it's the same in the gallery world. You need to have a personal relationship with the gallery owner. Which means you need to be there.

I've serialize two of my SF novels on my blog. It's hard to interpret the statistics, but I guess the serial is worth about 2000 humans an episode. When I started doing this it was closer to 200 -- which shows what word of mouth plus a little twittering can do. BUT. I sold 3 books. My blog is attached to my website. No crossover whatsoever. Every blog post had two sidebars -- one referring to other books available and the other with direct links to the Kindle and Nook product pages. Now it's barely possible I got some name recognition out of that but I can't tell.

Tough, tough, full-time game.

My literary novel is the second from the left on my signature. Murder mystery to the left. 6-vol SF series to the right. Peek into the literary one. Why is it literary? I dunno. Because it's second from the left?


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Anyone that uses _Strum und drang_ always has my undying respect. Wunderbar!



ElHawk said:


> Why all this _sturm und drang_ everywhere over trying to call your literary novels something other than literary? As Laura noted, if your book is actually literary fiction (and while the definition varies, I think most _readers _agree that "literary" = more emphasis on prose/style and a plot that is more character-internalized than externalized) then you're not going to fool anybody by trying to call it something it's not. So you wrote a literary novel, and the odds are against it ever being super-popular and resonating with a very broad range of readers. Suck it up, own it, be proud of what you wrote, call it what it is, and go write some commercial fiction if you want to make money off your books.


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## inspector (Apr 4, 2013)

While I dead agree with Buttonman both about his definition of literary fiction and his cure for the angst, I'm starting to object to the use of "commercial fiction" as a as a differentiating term. Isn't it all commercial? Some literary fiction makes some people lots and lots of money, gets turned into moves and makes lots more, and eternal reputations too. Just not for very many. And increasingly there are no small livings. But it's still commerce. Capitalism.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> Anyone that uses _Strum und drang_ always has my undying respect. Wunderbar!


Danke schoen. I am marrying into a German family later this year, so I'm trying to brush up on my casual and yet appropriately snooty lit-fic-author usage of the language. Any language which has a word like schedenfreude has my undying respect.



Buttonman88 said:


> Sorry folks
> I haven't been on this thread in over three hours. I was busy getting beaten up and then banned from the Absolute Write site over a sock puppet accusation.
> Bizarro or what??
> https://www.facebook.com/notes/misisipi/no-irish-no-dgs-no-blacklisteds-how-i-got-banned-from-absolutewrite/613595205336092
> Mike


Oh, good old AW. They are getting more tin-foil-hatty by the day.



inspector said:


> While I dead agree with Buttonman both about his definition of literary fiction and his cure for the angst, I'm starting to object to the use of "commercial fiction" as a as a differentiating term. Isn't it all commercial? Some literary fiction makes some people lots and lots of money, gets turned into moves and makes lots more, and eternal reputations too. Just not for very many. And increasingly there are no small livings. But it's still commerce. Capitalism.


Oh, some of it makes money, yes. Not most of it. By far way more genre/non-literary/popular/whatever you want to call it fiction makes lots of money, gets made into movies, etc. The eternal reputations...I guess that's subjective.

I am in the habit of calling my historical fiction my commercial fiction because it brings in way more of that sweet, filthy luchre than my literary fiction does. For every roughly $2,500 I make from my historical fiction I make about $2.50 on my literary fiction. So for me, the difference in the commercial viability of one genre over the other is a stark reality of my business, and I do not use the term "commercial fiction" in any kind of a derogatory way. I live off of my commercial fiction. It's my best friend.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Wedding Congrats!

AW: So that's normal treatment? There I was getting all warm and fuzzy about feeling special. Bah!

How did you do the multiple quotes thing? You're good.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> Wedding Congrats!
> 
> AW: So that's normal treatment? There I was getting all warm and fuzzy about feeling special. Bah!
> 
> How did you do the multiple quotes thing? You're good.


Oh, yeah. Normal treatment from them, from what I've seen. The less said about them the better. The mods here wisely try to keep people from going all pitchforks-and-torches on AW and this thread is too good to get shut down, so...yes. Normal. I elaborated on my true feelings in the comments section of your FB post with my personal account. If you want to do me a solid and like my author page back, here it is. I just got started with this FB author page stuff so I need all the help I can get. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Libbie-Hawker-L-M-Ironside/408961052533915?ref=ts&fref=ts

Multiple quotes are done the old-fashioned way around here. Reply to a post, copy the part you want to multi-quote, then edit your last post and add in the copied part. Old-school!

Multiple quotes:


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

El

That sounds hard. I'll stick to addressing people the old fashioned way.

Liked!

Thanks for the Like!


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Well ok. Someone told me that the standard categories are two shallow and recommended that I ask Amazon directly to fit it into the "secret" categories which only they can do on request? Had to msg them from the dashboard and everything.

Am I doing it wrong? Should I go back to the 2 shallow categories on offer and just choose Mystery?

Help!



Judi Coltman said:


> Actually I meant on Amazon. Fiction>Mystery


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## inspector (Apr 4, 2013)

ElHawk, I think with Facebook it's busy busy. You have to post a lot, and the kind of things people will repost. So your page has to look full. The more you talk, the more you keep up a conversation, the better it is. I also have a corporate page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ocotillo-Arts/145810498795048 which is where the advertising would come from and go to if I wanted/could afford that. The main page is for gossip, chocolate cake recipes, wonderful things you ran across, successes and failures with your books and writing. I'm terrible at this. You'll be better, I'm sure. Incidentally, congratulations on getting 30 likes so quickly.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Some times a misprint (accidental or otherwise) can be a good thing.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/joyce-family-split-over-error-on-new-coin-1.1359819


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Oh, thanks.  Well, I am a co-host of a fairly popular radio show/podcast, so my personal FB page has a lot of "friends" and I guess quite a few of them were kind enough to like my author page when I recently set it up.  Podcast fans are super awesome and I love them; I just wish they would all go buy my books.  And then review them.

I need to do more on my author page, I know, but between it and Twitter I get pretty burnt out on social media very quickly.  I prefer sticking to my personal FB page where I can swear and rant and be unprofessional and more like my usual self.  It is difficult to maintain the mysterious, deep-blogging, quasi-erotic, passion-feeling, hyphen-abusing aura of Libbie Hawker, Literary Novelist.  My commercial fiction pen name has more fun with life but has less to say, and mostly I just want to spend my internet time getting drunk on cheap sauv blanc and pinning Christmas trees and pie recipes on Pinterest.  Life is hard.  I figure at some point I'll hit my stride with the social media stuff.  I'm only just starting to ramp up my blogging and really focus it on building a brand and reaching those elusive fans of literary fiction.  

Ugh.  I just want to write books.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> Some times a misprint (accidental or otherwise) can be a good thing.
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/joyce-family-split-over-error-on-new-coin-1.1359819


I know this is terribly politically incorrect of me to say it, and I hope you will forgive me, but...oh, Irish. Always getting cheesed off about something.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

it's part of our charm, right?

Here's the actual error: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/12/newser-james-joyce/2077343/



ElHawk said:


> I know this is terribly politically incorrect of me to say it, and I hope you will forgive me, but...oh, Irish. Always getting cheesed off about something.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Good night, Waltons! C U L8R


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

G'night, John Boy.  (I've got a lot of writing to do.)


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## journeymama (May 30, 2011)

I'm the oddball who LOVES beautiful writing (over plot). When I get a book and start reading, and the sentences make me sit back with my hand on my forehead (swoon) I know I'm in love. Of _course_ a book has to have a good story. And by written well I'm not talking about purple prose. I love it when writing makes me feel like I've been somewhere or has put a name on something I've always felt but never before been able to describe.

These readers are still out there. It's finding them that's tricky. (Sorry, no answers here, except that I have been writing a blog for almost eight years and a lot of my readers also have loved my fiction.)


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherise Kelley said:


> This.
> 
> Wow, Shayne! You can write!  This is the best explanation of why lit doesn't sell that I have ever seen.
> 
> Suggestion for Mike: Are there some magazines where you could submit a chapter or two? Vanity Fair?


Good points, all. including Shayne. Buttonman, thanks for starting this thread.

A problem with literary readers may be this: they are snobs, only go for the writers that The Guardian and New Yorker/ New York Review of Books has told them are good, and with the elite presses.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

journeymama said:


> I'm the oddball who LOVES beautiful writing (over plot). When I get a book and start reading, and the sentences make me sit back with my hand on my forehead (swoon) I know I'm in love. Of _course_ a book has to have a good story. And by written well I'm not talking about purple prose. I love it when writing makes me feel like I've been somewhere or has put a name on something I've always felt but never before been able to describe.
> 
> These readers are still out there. It's finding them that's tricky. (Sorry, no answers here, except that I have been writing a blog for almost eight years and a lot of my readers also have loved my fiction.)


I'm also an oddball in this respect. Writing that does not shine, or does not have some original thinking in it fails to hold me after a few pages. (However, I was omnivorous in my teens, would even read a government advertisement calling for quotations on building supplies; read everything I could lay my hands on.)


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Richardcrasta said:


> A problem with literary readers may be this: they are snobs, only go for the writers that The Guardian and New Yorker/ New York Review of Books has told them are good, and with the elite presses.


I was going to say this too, although maybe less harshly. Lit fiction depends so much on "pedigree" that Indies are a tough sell to that market.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Just wanted to say that perhaps expectations are too high. Many authors on this site have been at this for a while and have many books and have had a great amount of success. So, if you hang around here a bit, you begin to expect that sales will start rolling in once you put a book or two out. But I'd say plenty of good authors have had only a handful of sales. 

And possibly, for those who are successful, those sales only came when they got their 3rd or 4th book out. So perhaps your problem is not just that you write literary fiction (as you are assuming), but also that you are an unknown author with only one book out at a time where there is no magic bullet for sales (like Select was, or before then, like 99c books seemed to be)


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Everyone

Thanks so much for you all chiming in. I guess we all seem to be in the same boat. The conclusion is: we write fiction that is a harder-sell in the online indie world and we therefore have a harder time reaching readers and advocates, for a myriad of reasons. 

I for one am proud to be "literary" and glad to learn through this thread that I am not alone in the sheer daunting'ness of the struggle I will face because of it.

Here's hoping we can give each other pointers to where there are cracks in that 'glass ceiling' of the indie world and help to push all of ourselves onwards and upwards.

The fire has been Lit! Keep fanning.

Mike


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

journeymama said:


> I'm the oddball who LOVES beautiful writing (over plot). When I get a book and start reading, and the sentences make me sit back with my hand on my forehead (swoon) I know I'm in love. Of _course_ a book has to have a good story. And by written well I'm not talking about purple prose. I love it when writing makes me feel like I've been somewhere or has put a name on something I've always felt but never before been able to describe.
> 
> These readers are still out there. It's finding them that's tricky. (Sorry, no answers here, except that I have been writing a blog for almost eight years and a lot of my readers also have loved my fiction.)


Me too! And just because you described yourself that way, I bought your book, because chances are good I'll like it. What you described is exactly the kind of writing I love. If you love it, too, you're probably writing it.

See? We do find our readers. There just aren't as many out there looking specifically for this kind of writing as are looking for more action-focused writing.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Richardcrasta said:


> Good points, all. including Shayne. Buttonman, thanks for starting this thread.
> 
> A problem with literary readers may be this: they are snobs, only go for the writers that The Guardian and New Yorker/ New York Review of Books has told them are good, and with the elite presses.


Okay, NO. Stop this, please. I find it really astonishing how quick non-literary fans are to point fingers at literary writers and/or readers and label them snobs, arrogant, self-important, and only interested in literary fiction. It is just so _not true_, and the great irony here is that the only people I ever see declaring that an "us vs. them" schism exists are the people who _do not read or write literary fiction_. If you aren't even into the genre, then how do you know what the people who write it or read it are like?

I am a huge fan of literary fiction. Not only am I also a huge fan of many other genres which you probably assume literary fans eschew for being far too low-brow and not nearly of enough Super Special Literary Merit, including sci-fi, fantasy, and comics, but I am constantly looking for indie literary fiction, because I have long since grown bored with the MFA cookie-cutter scenarios and characters which the Guardian and The New Yorker promote. Earlier this year I declared an indie novel "probably the best literary fiction I'll read all year" and I'm still eagerly hunting for something to top it.

Please, for the love of god, can we stop this ridiculous meme that readers and writers of literary fiction are snobs? It doesn't do anything but impose artificial restrictions on us _as readers_. When you declare that you won't venture into one given pool of books because _obviously _everybody who reads and writes _that kind of book_ is a snob, or an egocrat, or too in love with the sound of their own voice to say anything worthwhile, you may be missing out on some excellent books. And people who prefer literary fiction over any other kind of fiction simply have a preference. They are no more snobs than are people who don't want to read anything other than sci-fi, or romance, or nonfiction history, or comics.  We all have preferences. Cut out the accusations of snobbery; it only makes you look like the snob.


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

You must be Irish, El, cause that's some big fromage there 



ElHawk said:


> Okay, NO. Stop this, please. I find it really astonishing how quick non-literary fans are to point fingers at literary writers and/or readers and label them snobs, arrogant, self-important, and only interested in literary fiction. It is just so _not true_, and the great irony here is that the only people I ever see declaring that an "us vs. them" schism exists are the people who _do not read or write literary fiction_. If you aren't even into the genre, then how do you know what the people who write it or read it are like?
> 
> I am a huge fan of literary fiction. Not only am I also a huge fan of many other genres which you probably assume literary fans eschew for being far too low-brow and not nearly of enough Super Special Literary Merit, including sci-fi, fantasy, and comics, but I am constantly looking for indie literary fiction, because I have long since grown bored with the MFA cookie-cutter scenarios and characters which the Guardian and The New Yorker promote. Earlier this year I declared an indie novel "probably the best literary fiction I'll read all year" and I'm still eagerly hunting for something to top it.
> 
> Please, for the love of god, can we stop this ridiculous meme that readers and writers of literary fiction are snobs? It doesn't do anything but impose artificial restrictions on us _as readers_. When you declare that you won't venture into one given pool of books because _obviously _everybody who reads and writes _that kind of book_ is a snob, or an egocrat, or too in love with the sound of their own voice to say anything worthwhile, you may be missing out on some excellent books. And people who prefer literary fiction over any other kind of fiction simply have a preference. They are no more snobs than are people who don't want to read anything other than sci-fi, or romance, or nonfiction history, or comics. We all have preferences. Cut out the accusations of snobbery; it only makes you look like the snob.


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## Judi Coltman (Aug 23, 2010)

Buttonman88 said:


> Well ok. Someone told me that the standard categories are two shallow and recommended that I ask Amazon directly to fit it into the "secret" categories which only they can do on request? Had to msg them from the dashboard and everything.
> 
> Am I doing it wrong? Should I go back to the 2 shallow categories on offer and just choose Mystery?
> 
> Help!


I have no idea if you are doing it wrong (maybe I am?) All I know is that for marketing purposes, I was counseled to go that route. Very few people look for "Literary fiction" (although I am an oddball, too, love good writing for good writings sake), but hey - if a mystery happens to be written with a literary taste, all the better. I think the literary part is the much appreciated gift within any genre. Does this make sense?


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## Buttonman88 (Apr 11, 2013)

Judi Coltman said:


> I have no idea if you are doing it wrong (maybe I am?) All I know is that for marketing purposes, I was counseled to go that route. Very few people look for "Literary fiction" (although I am an oddball, too, love good writing for good writings sake), but hey - if a mystery happens to be written with a literary taste, all the better. I think the literary part is the much appreciated gift within any genre. Does this make sense?


Perfect sense Judi.

As an exercise in definition, I started http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,148590.0.html


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Buttonman88 said:


> You must be Irish, El, cause that's some big fromage there


I know. This same old topic is beaten way more to death over at AW than here, but it appears regularly on every writing forum I've ever seen. It's a snooze.


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## inspector (Apr 4, 2013)

Richardcrasta wrote "A problem with literary readers may be this: they are snobs, only go for the writers that The Guardian and New Yorker/ New York Review of Books has told them are good, and with the elite presses."

Really, I must object to this. It perpetuates an entirely unnecessary cultural class warfare which we have lived with since the 1830s and the rise of newly literate folks. I read the sort of literature Richardcrasta is disparaging. I admit that my tastes are, or have become, minority tastes, and thus wield less market power. I also admit that my tastes carry a good bit of cultural weight inherited from past attitudes. But I also read and have studied detective stories, SF, and fantasy with great pleasure, and would like to think that readers who prefer it could extend the same welcome to my tastes. I'm insulted to be thought an elite snob, and moreover a creature of the "elite presses" who has no thoughtful or independent judgment.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I love lit fic and your book looks interesting so I grabbed the sample on UK. If I like it'll I'll buy and if I really like it I'll write a review. Don't sit around waiting though - it takes me six weeks to read a book that long and I have two or three in the queue. I'll get to it though ...!

In the meantime, have you tried using the Making Connections group on Goodreads to look for more reviews or applying to Bookbub? I know they have a literary fiction category. I hate to say it, but the best way to sell books is to write more books. I don't know many people who've got big on one book. Perhaps 1/100,000, but you might get lucky! Good luck!


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## journeymama (May 30, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> Me too! And just because you described yourself that way, I bought your book, because chances are good I'll like it. What you described is exactly the kind of writing I love. If you love it, too, you're probably writing it.
> 
> See? We do find our readers. There just aren't as many out there looking specifically for this kind of writing as are looking for more action-focused writing.


Awww, thanks. Yes, I think we do find our readers. It takes time. And I like your idea of writing more marketable fiction as well. I'm a fantasy lover, so I'm considering picking fantasy up.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

If you use the definition of character driven vs plot driven, then my book would be described as literary fiction. In fact, I have long suspected that is as close a description of it as anything else. The only genre that seems to be the perfect fit is Boomer Lit because it is the story of baby boomers dealing with major transitions in their lives. Of course, no such genre exists yet in Amazon, so I listed it as women's contemporary. Sometimes you have to use what's available.

It's weird how my whole life some people have made fun of me for using more than a 6th grade vocabulary and being able to do math problems in my head. Somehow a "C" average in high school was more acceptable to those same people as my straight "A's" were. Are those the same people that now consider literary fiction only for eggheads?


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