# Reading The Watchmen - what's up with graphic novels?



## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm reading The Watchmen by Allen Moore for a book club, and I'm having a difficult time getting through it. It's like watching consecutive scenes from a bad movie, it seems much more visual than literary. I do enjoy the artwork, but the story seems trite so far. Does it get better? Are they all like this?


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

Depends how far you've got... from your description of it being too visual, you haven't got to the end of the first chapter (there is 2-3 stages of 'proper' text at the end of each episode). If you haven't, keep going for a bit. If you have, you probably aren't going to like it.

(Given the scale of it, it's hardly trite though... )


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## JoeMitchell (Jun 6, 2010)

A lot has been said about The Watchmen being one of the greatest comic book series ever, by people who know far more about it than I do.  It has some special historical value for having changed the direction of comics at the time when it was published.  It deconstructs the superhero genre and portrays costumed heroes and vigilantes more realistically than other books had up to that point, incorporating them into real-world history; an alternate history where these people had an influence over politics and world events to some extent.  It is very visual, I guess because it's a comic book.  It's also very wordy compared to most comics.

Personally, I enjoyed the story very much.  I read the whole thing a few years ago, and thought it was a good and thought provoking story, unlike anything I'd read before.  I loved the movie too, except for the fake ending the director tacked on in place of the real ending in the book, which was much much better and actually made sense, unlike the movie.


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## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm at Chapter Three. Joe, the historical significance makes sense. I didn't think of that, but it is relatively new to think of superheroes as vigilantes. All the acclaim for the novel had me expecting something more, though. My boys went through a big manga phase and I enjoyed flipping through their books, but they were much more lighthearted than this. As for it being trite, you're right, it's much too soon for me to be judgmental.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Having grown up a follower of the X-men, etc. in the '80's, I found _The Watchmen_ very enjoyable. I can see, though, for one unfamiliar with the comic book world of that era that it could come across less than stellar. In many ways it's similar to how the younger generations look at a sitcom like _Rosanne_ and not understand why some many of us oldsters loved it so much.

Perhaps it will help you to read a bit about it's history and influence to better understand the environment in which it first arrived and it's impact on that environment. Wikipedia's article isn't a bad place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen. While not complete, it will give you the gist.....


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

hsuthard said:


> I'm reading The Watchmen by Allen Moore for a book club, and I'm having a difficult time getting through it. It's like watching consecutive scenes from a bad movie, it seems much more visual than literary. I do enjoy the artwork, but the story seems trite so far. Does it get better? Are they all like this?


hsuthard, Watchmen was my first graphic novel. Even though I haven't read one since, I did find myself enjoying it after a brief period of difficulty acclimating to reading it. I think once you let the story build, you'll get a sense of how complex and intricate it becomes. The characters are very rich. And you're very likely to miss things early on that become important later even though everything seemed simple (and that can be fun because it challenges you to be more observant). The story is thought-provoking too and you try to tease out how motivations lead to actions for different characters.

Then you can watch the movie, which I also thought was fantastic!


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## Iwritelotsofbooks (Nov 17, 2010)

I don't think Watchmen makes a good first graphic novel, because as has been mentioned, it's a satire of comics and their conventions.  So if you're not accustomed to the world of comics, you miss some of the satire.  

That being said, I'd give it a few more chapters.  In terms of visual, there's actually a lot less action in it than your average comic.  Hope you finish reading it and enjoy it.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

I never liked Watchmen either - and the movie was every bit as bad, tedious and boring, I thought.


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## anguabell (Jan 9, 2011)

I was never able to read graphic novels - apparently, some sort of a processing chip is missing in my brain. After a few seconds, all those bits of texts and pictures get mixed up  But I've been tempted to read The Watchmen because I love the movie so much. Particularly Rorschach. Great character, at least in the movie...


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Rorschach is even better in the GN.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

Rorschach is totally awesome!


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

it is the citizen kane of g.novels, historic but no longer a pleasure! As for other gn's, if you like fantasy check out sandman by gaimen, if you like superheros get any of the early astro city books. If you like grit then 100 bullets is really awesome. Also, check out fables, its like a serious shrek set in new york


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

The only graphic novel I ever truly enjoyed was "From Hell."


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## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

Reading the Wikipedia post was a great idea, thank you Geoffrey. I'm sticking with it, I feel compelled to finish book club books. It is interesting, I think I'm having a hard time adjusting to reading something that's so inherently visual. It's very adult and dark. I am picking up on lots of little things in the background, too, that make it more interesting to read.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

hsuthard said:


> Are they all like this?


They are as diverse as novels. Watchmen is a tough one to start with. As others have pointed out, it was really meant as a deconstruction of an existing genre, which if you aren't intimate with can leave you wondering what the big deal is.

There are some fantastic graphic novels. Some I really enjoyed include The Dark Knight Returns, From Hell, Kingdom Come, and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

Bleekness said:


> It's dense, meanders in places, but truly gobstopping jaw dropping. You have what many consider to be the bible of graphic novels, written by a master.


I don't want to come across as trollish or anything, but I have to ask, now, what is so "truly gobstopping jaw dropping" about "Watchmen?" Certainly not the story or the art, nor the way it is written or the trundling plot? I really, truly, honestly fail to see why people think "Watchmen" is sooooo good. I am having similar problems with movies, like "Titanic," "Kill Bill," "Avatar" and others, where everyone just gushes over them and I can't help but wonder if we're all talking about the same stuff at all.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Bleekness said:


> I was thinking about why exactly I enjoyed the book so much. The characters. The in-depth characterization of all the characters in there. These were normal people, yet they were super for the responsibilities they took upon themselves, and well, dysfunctional. Yet, they were superheroes for what they were doing. Some stayed true to the cause, some were corrupted by power, some walked a fine line between good and bad, and all were faced with the fact that, even heroes grow old, become forgotten, and even hunted. These were, ultimately, people, trying to do what they could to make a difference.
> 
> And that's just one level.
> 
> Although I could've done without with the dangling blue dingle.


Agree. Flawed people trying to be heroes. Sometimes they were brilliant, and sometimes they failed miserably. Which is really just a metaphor for reality. And it really was at the time, something truly unique, from the primary colors in the art, to the intertwined comic-within-a-comic story, to making an entire cast of Superheroes who were as flawed and damaged as the people they were supposed to protect. None of them, except one, had any actual super powers, they were the second generation, trying to measure up to their predecessors. It's a beautiful, groundbreaking story of complexity, that changed the trajectory of comics as we have them today.


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

I have very little to add to this thread, but I will just chime in and say I read this series in 1988 or 89 and found it very compelling.  I was just sitting around on the graveyard shift working as a security guard working my way through the whole pile of them (a friend had lent me).  

They were very different than anything I'd read up to that time, and I remember thinking them dry until I got into the story.  

I loved the movie, the cinematography looked just like the artwork, and felt it stayed pretty true to the comics.

Dawn


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## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

I read more last night, a little more than halfway through. I am finding Rorschach interesting, and Dr Manhattan depresses me. They are all very different. I noticed from the very beginning that the females seemed a bit flat, and that hasn't changed. I'm not very surprised, it's written by a man for men, but the female characters, the few there are, are awful.


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## G. Henkel (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for the info, Keith. I see what you guys are getting at and can, on some level agree, that it is a good idea to portray these flawed heroes trying to catch up. While these elements could have made great story indeed, I just don't think "Watchmen" was the one, but I can certainly see what get's you excited about it.

It may just have a lot to do with the fact that I am not and have never been a comic book fan or reader. "Watchmen" may have been groundbreaking for the genre with this kind of "depth" and I wouldn't even know it. I'm coming from literature and there flawed heroes etc. are not an uncommon theme as you know.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the explanation.


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## KerylR (Dec 28, 2010)

Monique said:


> They are as diverse as novels. Watchmen is a tough one to start with. As others have pointed out, it was really meant as a deconstruction of an existing genre, which if you aren't intimate with can leave you wondering what the big deal is.
> 
> There are some fantastic graphic novels. Some I really enjoyed include The Dark Knight Returns, From Hell, Kingdom Come, and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.


The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was a brilliant bit of comic work that became a mediocre movie. Dark Knight and From Hell are also excellent.

The Sandman series by Neil Gaiman can be a little hard to get into because there's just so much going on, but is well worth it.

The Crow is probably the most beautiful, aching, tragic GN I've ever seen. It's roughly ten million times better than the movie. The storyline is very basic, but rendered with beautiful emotional intensity.

Strangers in Paradise is worth your time if you want something a bit more 'real world' than the others I've listed.


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## Rory Miller (Oct 21, 2010)

Watchman was the first real dark and gritty comic.  It introduced the Anti-hero, which is the direction many, many characters took from that point on (especially in the 90's).  The ending was shocking for it's time, just as the whole Anti-Hero thing.  However, if you, like me, came to comics after the 80's then you were pretty used to this stuff and going back and reading the launching point of the darker stuff doesn't seem to be such a big deal. I'd say that goes equally for "Dark Knight" which as good, but not really something I ever plan on reading again.  

The soap-operaesque Strangers in Paradise is excellent, but probably something you have to be willing to read the whole series instead of just one graphic novel.  

Some more suggestions--

Kingdom Come (the DC heroe's meet their own dark days)
Books of Magic (which several people thought J.K Rowland ripped off left and right)
Powers (like a superhero cop TV show, really good stuff).
Ultra (by the Luna brothers, kind of a modern look at a female superhero--she deals with villans, boyfriends, and the tabloids).
Ultimate Spiderman (a re-imagining of the Spiderman story set in the modern world, but with a big emphasis on the characters--it takes three issues before he puts on a costume!).


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## FrankZubek (Aug 31, 2010)

I'd suggest (very highly by the way) Brian Micheal Bendis' DAREDEVIL graphic novel series

Look for Daredevil Volume 2 that starts with issue 26
The graphic novel is called Underboss and continues thru 3 other graphic novels in sequence: Out, Lowlife, Hardcore

The plot revolves around the villian, known as Kingpin, getting a hold of the heroes secret identity.
(He is Matt Murdock, a lawyer by day and at night he patrols Hell's Kitchen as Daredevil-- and the kicker is that he is blind and yet he can move quite easily both day and night since all his other senses have grown to compensate for the lack of sight)

This whole storyline goes into great detail about what would happen to a hero if the bad guy let it be known to all his true identity

Superbly written and illustrated
Trust me


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

There are many things that make Watchmen special and often truly great.  But many of them are locked into the time it was conceived and released.  There is a lot of insider comic-book stuff going on.  But the bottom line for me is that Alan Moore is quite brilliant, and a rare iconoclast.  He takes you places others hadn't tried.  At least not in that medium, which is why I say it's locked into time and place.  But I still remember getting goosebumps in the chapter with the flashbacks to the watch repair shop.  It was poetry that wasn't poetry, visuals that were more than visuals, and metaphor stacked upon metaphor that created a marvelous loop.  

Wildly innovative things don't always hold up well enough to be appreciated and loved the same way when read for the first time 30 years later.  Watchmen actually holds up well, I think, but you can never go home again.  Few would be blown away by the original Star Wars either if they watched it for the first time now.


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## Thayerphotos (Dec 19, 2010)

I remember reading Watchmen as it was published,  (for those of you who don't know Watchmen was originally published as a 12 part monthly comic book) and being amazed by it.  I worked in a used bookstore that also sold comics and was very into the comic culture of the late 80s / early 90s.  I was amazed by the story, but thought the art was a bit of a let down.  When I go back and re-read it today though it's lost some of it's magic. I still like it, but it's more of a B+ rather than the A+ it was.

The Dark Knight returns however had held up since then, and still blows me away everytime I read it.

For me Dark Knight is THE best graphic novel ever, with watchmen and fables in a tie for 2nd and 3rd


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## matt youngmark (Jan 11, 2011)

I just wanted to chime in here as well -- I also read Watchmen in the 1980's when it was first released, and still love it to this day. It certainly was one of the books that changed the way people thought about comics, but that doesn't mean it's for everybody. Superhero deconstruction certainly doesn't play as well if you don't already have preconceptions about the genre to be deconstructed. Also, 25 years later, many other creators have taken the ball and run with it, so Watchmen seems less remarkable by today's standards.

To answer your last question, though, no, they aren't all like that! There are many, many wonderful graphic novels of all kinds: lighthearted fare, dark & gritty stuff, material ranging from cosmic and earth-shattering to deeply personal. If you're looking for something more literary, you might try "Maus" or "Persepolis" (both heartwrenching accounts of life during wartime). Or if you're looking for something that doesn't take itself so seriously, Jeff Smith's "Bone" is charming and suitable for all ages.

The comics field is as wide and varied as literature in general is, so just because you didn't care for Watchmen doesn't mean there isn't plenty out there that you might enjoy!


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Thayerphotos said:


> with watchmen and fables in a tie for 2nd and 3rd


Definitely Fables, but my "Dark Knight" is "Sandman." I never read any comics, (except for a few Disney comics as a kid,) until I read that, and it opened up a whole new world of fiction to me.


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## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

I appreciate all the comments and recommendations. It will be very interesting to see how our book discussion goes on this one. We selected it to introduce ourselves to the genre, after reading through it and reading everyone's reactions, I'm not sure it's the best selection to do that, but it's what we've got. I'm fairly sure I'll never read another graphic novel of this sort, but perhaps I would read some manga that's geared more towards women, and is more lighthearted. 

I'm really wondering how the others in the club are doing with it, the club is through our children's prep school and we're a bunch of older college-educated moms, not at all the target audience!


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

If you are looking for interesting Graphic Novels, one should look at:
Baltimore, or The Steadfast Tin Soldier and the Vampire - a 2007 illustrated novel created by Mike Mignola and Christopher Golden.

I do not seek out vampire stories. But I found this a dark and haunting story.

Just sayin......


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## Ray Rhamey author (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm midway through The Watchmen, and felt at first that it seemed a little trite, but it's growing on me. I do like the alternation between illustrated story and text story.


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## Iwritelotsofbooks (Nov 17, 2010)

Another good graphic novel series is The Walking Dead.  Oh, and Y: The Last Man.


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## resipsa13 (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm reading The Walking Dead Volume 1 graphic novel right now. I've read most of Moore and I have to say that while everyone loves Watchmen, I didn't think it was as good as some of his other stuff. I found it overly dense, still good, but it didn't hook me like League or From Hell. I WOULD recommend Walking Dead though.


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## Manley (Nov 14, 2010)

Bleekness said:


> That's one I'd like to read too--but I've seen season one of the series and I must say, I like it. I know there's like seven or so issues to go through, so I might have to start buying them to see what happens.


I think the latest volume out is #11. I agree, the Walking Dead series is excellent.

I've been reading graphic novels for many years, and I initially had trouble with Watchmen the first time I read it. But, I read through it again and loved it. Same thing with Moore's V for Vendetta. For the last year or so, I've been reading all the important (blockbuster) Batman, Superman, Justice League, and X-men graphic novels. There are SO MANY great stories. Man, I love reading.


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## Arthur Slade (Jan 20, 2011)

A Micronauts movie. Now that would be awesome.

I first read The Watchmen about 15 years ago and found that I skipped all the newspaper articles and extra "stuff." I still enjoyed the story...but not as much as I did when I bought the collector's edition and read every single word. It is slow at times but I appreciated the depth of it. I was pleased that the movie kept fairly close to the original.


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## marc (Jan 20, 2011)

I love The Watchmen, but them I'm a pretty big comic book fan (nerd). Almost anything by Alan Moore is worth reading, I'd recommend: League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Tom Strong, Top Ten, V for Vendetta.
Also pretty much anything by Warren Ellis (who I like more than Moore but that's just me): Iron Man, Preacher, The Authority (only the first series), Transmetropolitan, Global Frequency.
There are lots of great graphic novels out there, and if you are interested in giving them a read than pretty much everything mentioned in this thread would be a good start.


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## Kathelm (Sep 27, 2010)

> It's like watching consecutive scenes from a bad movie, it seems much more visual than literary. I do enjoy the artwork, but the story seems trite so far. Does it get better? Are they all like this?


To the visual point: That's kind of why graphic novels exist. They let the art do a lot of the talking.

To the rest of it: Watchmen, nowadays, is more _great_ than it is good. When I say that, I mean that it left a legacy, and had a huge influence on comics, and absolutely needed to be written...but it served its purpose and the medium has moved on.

Prior to *Watchmen*, and especially in DC comics, comics were lighthearted fare with simple storylines and minimal characterization. *Watchmen* set out to prove that comics could tackle serious issues and do them well, and brought much more of an adult focus to the storytelling in the medium. It was one of the first graphic novels to approach the depth of a regular novel.

After a decade of missing the point (aka the 90s), the rest of the comic book world has caught up, and the whole medium is probably better now than it ever has been before.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

The movie was on the disguisting side, though...


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## Manley (Nov 14, 2010)

Patrick Skelton said:


> The movie was on the disguisting side, though...


I like the movie, though. I thought it stayed really true to the graphic novel.


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## hsuthard (Jan 6, 2010)

I finished it last night. I found the parallel story of the Dark Voyager (?) very interesting, but somewhat distracting. I got the parallels, but i feel like i missed the point a bit? It got a bit crowded at the end with the lesbian couple fighting, and the psychiatrist and his wife fighting, and the superheroes fighting, I think I got the point there. 

I really enjoyed the artwork, it added a lot to the story. But the story was so very dated, it's a shame it wasn't more universal.


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## Batgirl (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm so glad to see a thread about The Watchmen.  It's my absolute favorite graphic novel (and I'm a comic geek).  I read it first back in the 80's, and have read it 4 or 5 times since.  I made my boyfriend read it, early in our relationship, to see if he was worth keeping.    Thankfully, he loved it, too, and we're still together after all these years.  We even saw the movie in the theater (which we both enjoyed) and we almost never do that.


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## Chris Barraclough (Jan 25, 2011)

hsuthard said:


> I finished it last night. I found the parallel story of the Dark Voyager (?) very interesting, but somewhat distracting. I got the parallels, but i feel like i missed the point a bit? It got a bit crowded at the end with the lesbian couple fighting, and the psychiatrist and his wife fighting, and the superheroes fighting, I think I got the point there.


Yeah, I thought those sections were a little superfluous too, although suitably creepy. Probably would've worked better as a separate story altogether.


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## Ray Rhamey author (Jan 6, 2011)

While I definitely am enjoying The Watchmen, I do find the dialogue a little stilted now and then. I'm contemplating creating (writing & drawing) a comedic graphic novel, and a number of readers have said that they though one of my published novels would make a good graphic novel. I haven't written a script for it, though, and have no idea of how to connect with an artist who would do it justice. The comedic one I'm toying with I could do myself, but the published novel, also comedic in nature, calls for a style and level of artwork that isn't in my quiver.


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## Joseph Robert Lewis (Oct 31, 2010)

hsuthard said:


> I'm at Chapter Three. Joe, the historical significance makes sense. I didn't think of that, but it is relatively new to think of superheroes as vigilantes. All the acclaim for the novel had me expecting something more, though. My boys went through a big manga phase and I enjoyed flipping through their books, but they were much more lighthearted than this. As for it being trite, you're right, it's much too soon for me to be judgmental.


As someone else said, Watchmen is a tough place to start reading graphic novels. It's a complex satire and criticism of all comic book superheroes prior to the 1980s. If you stick with it, you'll find it is at times a very hard-boiled crime novel or psychological thriller.

It is also extremely violent. One scene in the middle was actually the inspiration for the SAW movies. (A scene they changed in the film so it wouldn't look like it was stealing from SAW!)


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## James Everington (Dec 25, 2010)

Anyone read the Phonogram graphic novels? Amazing, and about as far away from The Watchmen as you can get. Just finished the second volume and loved it so much posted this on Amazon:

"This is a gloriously bonkers comic book about one night in a club, from multiple perspectives - each part repeats bits from earlier but from a different point of view. The whole music = magic thing from Volume 1 (also ace) is played down somewhat, but still present. The music covered is more mainly modern than the Britpop of the first one; here we have Camera Obscura, TV On The Radio, The Pipettes etc.

A book for those music snobs who are trapped between the twin views that music is both utterly unimportant and absolutely essential."

Not for everyone, but for someone out there, _this_ will be there new favourite thing...

James


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

hsuthard said:


> I'm reading The Watchmen by Allen Moore for a book club, and I'm having a difficult time getting through it. It's like watching consecutive scenes from a bad movie, it seems much more visual than literary. I do enjoy the artwork, but the story seems trite so far. Does it get better? Are they all like this?


I'd say stay with it. Where watchmen scores with me is that the super-heroes aren't that at all; they are just people. Troubled people, mostly. I think it has pathos. I think it has value. Stick with it, I'd say.

A few quotes to look for, or look back on.

Rorschach: You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do.

Dan Dreiberg: I'm not the one still hiding behind a mask.
Rorschach: No. You're hiding in plain sight.

Laurie Juspeczyk: Do you remember that crazy guy? What did he call himself... Captain Carnage. The one who used to pretend he was a supervillain just so he could get beaten up all the time?
Dan Dreiberg: Yeah, he tried that on me once. I just walked away. He starts following me down the street in broad daylight, yelling 'Punish me! Punish me!' I'm just saying 'No! Get lost.'
Laurie Juspeczyk: God. Whatever happened to him?
Dan Dreiberg: Well, he pulled that on Rorschach, and Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft.
[pause, then both laugh]
Laurie Juspeczyk: Oh my god. That isn't even funny.
Dan Dreiberg: [laughing] It is a *little* funny.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Yeah you just gotta love Rorschach.


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## Thayerphotos (Dec 19, 2010)

say what you will about the graphic novel, and the movie, good or bad, like them or love them or hate them,  Rorschach was perfectly cast.  Jackie Earle Haley played the role perfectly.


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