# Are the Kindle Voyage page turns the same as the Paperwhite?



## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Dear folks,

You've been helpful to me (a confirmed iPad lover) in the past and I'm hoping for that same kind of help now.

As always I'm trying to find the perfect e-Book reader.  Light, easy to read, responsive and (above all) page turns that don't drive me crazy.  Started off with the Kindle Touch (on November 2011) and hated the screen (too dim -- don't like the, what?, e-ink thing) and ended up (for my wife) with the Kindle Fire.  Me, I stayed with my iPad (and then iPad Mini).

Have upgraded my wife's Fire twice now, with the latest HD in her possession and she likes it just fine.  Although I like my mini it's still too heavy for reading very long, so last year in October I tried the Paperwhite (the original and not the last version).  I liked everything about it except for the page turning, which was too slow and (the worst of all) "flashed" and drove me crazy.

Which brings me to today.  I've ordered the Voyage and, yes, I can return it the same way I returned all the other Kindles I didn't like, but since it won't come for another month (and since, in the meantime, I can try other things like that Kobe reader) I was hoping to get some feedback here.

For those of you who have the Voyage (and have had other Kindles) can you give me some feedback on the page turns in particular?  I've looked at videos and it doesn't appear to flash like my original Paperwhite, but perhaps they just haven't turned enough.  I know there is an option to refresh the page after every turn, and I'm afraid that's where the "flash" comes in.  If that flash happens every five or six pages it will drive me crazy (yeah, a small but extremely annoying thing, at least where I am concerned.  It's like a ticking time bomb -- and setting it to happen *every* time is just unacceptable).

Perhaps my search for the perfect e-Reader will just go on and on... (right now, my favorite device is... wait for it... my iPhone 6 Plus.  It actually is *almost* perfect, except a bit too small.  Sigh).


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## KimberlyinMN (Dec 30, 2009)

I have my Voyage set to refresh at every page turn and was originally going to reply that mine doesn't flash. But... I picked it up to verify... and it DOES. I just didn't notice it.  I'm not really sure why I even set it to refresh that often.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't notice a flash. But then, I never have; not since my first kindle over 6 years ago. I got used to it then and it's not even been a factor since. I didn't change, on either my PWs or my V, the default of full refresh every few pages.


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## kevinpars (Nov 14, 2008)

My Voyage flashes about every 10-12 pages of text.  I don't really notice it so I went back and experimented.  It flashes a lot more on things such as the Amazon blog - I assume because there are photos and graphics which are more display intensive.


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## J.D. Fournier (Oct 20, 2014)

That is the way e-ink technology works. It has to flash to clean up the page. It does do it much quicker now.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks dear folk.

I suspect then that I would find it unacceptable. It might be different if my first experience in e-readers had been a Kindle, but because I started with an iPad (and gone through four of those in various configurations) and even enjoy reading on my iPhone 6 Plus I just have never gotten used to that flash. I tried, I really did, but even after a few weeks it was something I couldn't live with.

So I guess I'll stick right now with my Air 2 (which, to be honest, is so much the better reader for me that I probably don't need anything else). It's not something you can take with you easily (that's my iPhone 6 Plus :>) but for reading around the house, which is where I do nearly all my reading, it's lighter than a regular book and the screen is SO much nicer I can't imagine wanting anything else (oddly enough it seems lighter than even my iPad Retina Mini, although intellectually I know it isn't).

Perhaps some day one of the tablets will be as light, small and long lasting as the e-ink readers (actually, I'm sure of it, I'm just not sure I'll live that long <g>).


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

I always turn on the every page refresh, so my Kindles flash after every page, although these days (since Kindle 4th generation) there has been the option to only fully refresh every so often (was it every 6 pages? maybe Voyage does it even more rarely?). For those in-between updates, it only "flashes" the text itself, not the full page to black, but I prefer the full refresh myself.

We are all individuals, of course. Personally I could not read on an LCD (or even AMOLED), not books, so anything other than e-ink is completely out. I like that flash comforting. To me it tells of that magical moment several years ago when my first Kindle (the Kindle 2) blew me away and replaced paper books overnight. That's still the magic. Digital paper.

LCDs... magic? Not so much.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

I understand -- it's great there are so many choices for people nowadays.

For me the Air 2 is the absolute closest thing to a real page in a book there is -- that new display (with the non-glare matte finish) and high res absolutely look identical to these old eyes.  Nothing, not even the new Voyage, comes close to it.  But it comes at the cost of greater weight and size and while it's easy to hold (particularly compared to the original iPads) it's not something I'd take with me anywhere.

But nowadays I seldom do any reading outside of the house, so my iPhone 6 Plus will suffice for that (and its display comes *very* close to the Air 2, just not with the anti-glare finish).  I can see the technology evolving in my favor, though, and tablets are sure to get to where I want them (which is as light as a piece of cardboard and the size of an old paperback).  Not sure e-readers will continue, though, but for the sake of folks like yourself I do hope so.


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

Indeed. If anything, places like this highlight how differently we see these types of products. The great thing about e-reading is that the reader has a choice of device and type of device.

Back in the old days it used to be just hardback or softcover.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Yeah, and we sometimes get mad when we can't get the font or spacing we want.  LOL -- it would be very difficult to go back to reading hardcopy again.

I'm glad I lived at least long enough to see these things (not that there isn't some intrinsic value in the printed page.  It's just not something I want to deal with anymore).


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## CAR (Aug 1, 2010)

FearIndex said:


> We are all individuals, of course. Personally I could not read on an LCD (or even AMOLED), not books, so anything other than e-ink is completely out. I like that flash comforting. To me it tells of that magical moment several years ago when my first Kindle (the Kindle 2) blew me away and replaced paper books overnight. That's still the magic. Digital paper.
> 
> LCDs... magic? Not so much.


My thoughts exactly! I could never read a whole book on a LCD screen. We still have a IPad 3 and the only thing it gets used for now, is for my wife to play hearts on.

Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk HD


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm going to guess that most of you who don't like LCDs had their first exposure to e-reading on a Kindle.  Those of us who came at it the other way around feel, well, exactly the opposite (I can't even get through a chapter on a reader that isn't LCD, as much as I'd like to.  If it didn't flash...)


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## CAR (Aug 1, 2010)

mkelley said:


> I'm going to guess that most of you who don't like LCDs had their first exposure to e-reading on a Kindle. Those of us who came at it the other way around feel, well, exactly the opposite (I can't even get through a chapter on a reader that isn't LCD, as much as I'd like to. If it didn't flash...)


Well in my case I bought a Palm Personal Assistant and tried to use that to read books on. That was before I bought my first E-ink reader which was a Sony PRS-505. That was many years ago.


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## Seleya (Feb 25, 2011)

mkelley said:


> I'm going to guess that most of you who don't like LCDs had their first exposure to e-reading on a Kindle. Those of us who came at it the other way around feel, well, exactly the opposite (I can't even get through a chapter on a reader that isn't LCD, as much as I'd like to. If it didn't flash...)


My first e-reading experience was on my computer screen. and I hated it, my eyes grew tired very quickly. then I tried the basic kindle and I loved it, just as I love the Paperwhite, no eye problems at all. Later I discovered that the Fire set to sepia gives me no trouble either, nowadays it has become my main reader when at home (Scribd, need I say more?).


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

For what it is worth, I tested on my Kindle (7th Generation), it goes much further before a page refresh (when not in refresh after every page mode) than old Kindles (4th Gen onwards) that I remember doing it around every six pages.

I could get the Kindle (7th Generation) going as high as 23 pages before a page refresh and even that was because it clearly refreshes on chapter breaks, which was the case there. It may have gone on much longer, still, without a full page refresh.

I haven't tested how PW2 does it.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

I appreciate you sticking with me in this thread.

Last night we were at Best Buy (I was returning my Retina Mini, which I really don't need/want compared to my iPad Air 2 -- also ended up buying the Surface Pro 3 but that's a whole other discussion :>) and looked at the Kindles again.  They didn't have a Voyage, unfortunately, and even their Paperwhite wasn't working (Best Buy isn't really known for being a great place to get advice or see things very well -- just how can you tell how a reader or table will feel in your hands when it has a ginormous anti-theft device attached to it?) but I did try one of the Kindles there (I hate the e-ink without the lighting of the Paperwhite, so it isn't an option but I did think it would give me a feel again about the flash).

The book they had on it, Gone Girl, did not flash until it got to chapter breaks.  That behavior was acceptable -- not great, but certainly not off-putting at all.  Because the chapters were variable I couldn't get a sense of whether this was just a "only with this book" thing or something that now happens routinely.  One chapter was 23 pages, for example, and it never flashed at all during that time.

And you mention this as well, so now I'm wondering if this is the normal behavior (normal, that is, when you don't have flash turned on for every page).  I could live with this.  

I guess I could always just go ahead and re-order (I cancelled my first Voyage order) and return it if it doesn't work this way, but feedback is always appreciated, as sometimes the return process is a PITA (not horrible, just an annoyance).  Can anyone else check out a few books and see if this is what they experience, or report back if it flashes more often (I'm particularly interested in those of you with a Paperwhite, regardless of which one -- I assume the reading experience is the same on both)?  IOW, what I'm asking is does the Paperwhite ever flash when it's NOT at the start of a new chapter?  (Again, assuming you haven't set it so that it will refresh at each page turn).


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

Funny. I tested on Gone Girl, too. 

But yes, expect it to be the same with other books according to past experience. Images may trigger a page refresh.


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

Reading the Kindle user guide on Kindle (7th Generation) - this is not Voyage, but its same-generation basic sibling - refreshes quite a bit more often due to images and large headings on a lot of the pages. It too seems to not refresh the full page whenever there is just text there, but if there are images, even small icons, then it prefers to do a full refresh before and after the image page. 

Taking a random novel from cloud, Railway Man,  I got to 52 pages (!) without full refresh and that too was only because of a chapter break. I would say, if Voyage is the same as Kindle (7th Generation)  - and I do believe they run pretty much the same software - this should be applicable to any book where there isn't much images or big headings or the like.

The only thing that gives me pause is that Kindle Voyage uses a higher resolution screen than Kindle (7th Generation). I wonder if that affects the page refresh algorithm in any way? Those with a Voyage can fill in.


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## bordercollielady (Nov 21, 2008)

mkelley said:


> I'm going to guess that most of you who don't like LCDs had their first exposure to e-reading on a Kindle. Those of us who came at it the other way around feel, well, exactly the opposite (I can't even get through a chapter on a reader that isn't LCD, as much as I'd like to. If it didn't flash...)


I spent 37 years staring at a computer LCD screen before I retired (computer programmer) and that destroyed my eyes (I have glaucoma) enough to minimize the amount of time I spend in front of any back-lit screen. Nothing to do with flashes..


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Of course modern LCDs have about as much relationship to those of even five years ago an old CRT television to an HDTV, so it's really hard to say that anyone would get eye issues staring at them nowadays. But I, too, have looked at computer screens for a while (about half a century now, starting with old IBM black on green, during the days when we could only program via punch cards) and my eyes still work fairly well.

Still, I'd love to hear from those of you with Paperwhites here -- don't be shy! In the meantime I may just go ahead and put my order in (the ship date for the Voyage isn't until December anyway, so I have LOTS of time to wait <g>. Heck, I'd go into Orlando and pick one up locally but the only ones they have are the ad supported ones and it looks like the Voyage, unlike previous Kindles, can't be "unlocked" or somehow gotten rid of the ads otherwise).


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## Morf (Nov 18, 2010)

I don't believe that the book you're reading has any effect on the page turns whatsoever.

The settings on the particular Kindle may do, though...

[Techie sidetrack]
I'm not going to explain the basics of how e-ink works, I presume you know this, if not there are plenty of explanations online.

The inherent problem with e-ink is that the movement of the black and white pigments to the top and bottom of the pixels is not perfect - some of the pigment gets "stuck" and left behind so the pixels are not as pure white or black as they should be.

On the early e-ink implementations this was resolved by "cycling" the whole screen (a full refresh) each time it was changed by flipping the charge a couple of times - so you'd see the screen flash black and white in between each change. This shakes up the pigment to help it move.

Because people didn't like this flash, on newer implementations they reduced the regularity with which the full refresh occurs to (on paperwhite) once every 6 page changes. This reduced the flicker, but means there is a gradual "messing up" of the screen between full refreshes - noticeable as a greyness to the white areas on the screen, or a slight "ghost" of a line of text from the previous page in the paragraph spaces.

So, if you watch the screen on a Paperwhite as you page through the book, you'll notice that the screen flickers more noticeably every 6 page turns, but also that the screen looks clearer immediately after the full refresh.

[/Techie sidetrack]

The first thing in the Kindle settings that can affect the flicker is the "Page refresh" setting. By default, the screen only does a full refresh every 6 page turns. If you toggle this setting (Home, Settings, Reading Options, Page Refresh") then it will flicker every page turn, but the screen will be clearer. It may be that the Voyage uses a setting other than every 6 turns - I've not seen one yet.

The second thing that affects the flicker is the font size. (Shortcut to change the font size is a two-fingered "pinch" on the screen). Larger fonts make the flicker more visible, smaller fonts make it less visible. Set it to the largest font and the flicker (and smudging in between refreshes) is extremely noticeable. I think this is due to the larger areas of black with larger fonts.

You ask for opinions from PW owners - mine is this... Get a PW or Voyage, and actually read a book on it. Make it a book you really want to read so you get immersed in the book rather than thinking about the device. You'll find that within an hour or two you're not noticing the flicker at all, because it happens in the time it takes your eyes to move from the bottom of the page to the top of the next page.

After all, we've lived with turning over sheets of paper to read a book for hundreds of years, and nobody complains about the paper flickering!

Then, to help convince you, go outside on a bright sunny day (says me, October here in the UK isn't bright and sunny!) and sit in the sun and read for a while - imagine a holiday on the beach. This is where you'll see the best feature of the e-ink screen - it gets better in bright light instead of worse.

Finally, you'll notice that over the course of a couple of weeks you'll realise that you've never worried about it running out of power, and you're not carrying a charging cable with you wherever you go.

Oh, and one other comment about e-ink screens - they do slow down (and therefore flicker more noticeably) when cold. I noticed it this weekend having stopped in a caravan - first thing in the morning the Kindle was much slower than normal and the flicker was apparent. I've been told this also happens when they get very hot, but as I said before... UK in October!

Hope this helps.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks, Morf.  It does help, although probably not in the way you intended.

Unfortunately, even the flicker on the Kindles I've tried (we've bought two now, and returned both) was too much for me, and this was after your "immersion" test.  Indeed, the longer I tried, the worse the problem became, as it was like waiting for the other shoe to drop.  It doesn't help that I'm a speed reader, or that most of the books I like to read are old favorites I've read before (that I like to savor again... but no surprises and certainly not the kind of hypnotic effect that would keep me oblivious to other issues).

Also -- I'm old and need large fonts (or at least larger than I used to be able to read).  And, finally, I live in Florida and if I'm going to be outside I'm NOT going to be reading (I'll be swimming, or playing tennis, or otherwise recreating).  When I read I read at home, and I read on devices which last plenty of time for me to charge when needed (and they are never without charge because I'm always using them for things other than just reading books, like surfing the web, or reading graphic novels).  E-ink holds no advantages for me in those respects.

But the good news is I think you've convinced me once and for all that I just should give up trying on an e-ink reader.  I'll go ahead and cancel my order for the Voyage (again! LOL) and just assume I've gotten the best of all the worlds I can get.  As I said earlier in this thread, I've no doubt that at some point technology will have evolved to where my own particular set of requirements will be met perfectly, and I'll just continue to hope I live long enough to see that day.


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## Andra (Nov 19, 2008)

mkelley said:


> In the meantime I may just go ahead and put my order in (the ship date for the Voyage isn't until December anyway, so I have LOTS of time to wait <g>. Heck, I'd go into Orlando and pick one up locally but the only ones they have are the ad supported ones and it looks like the Voyage, unlike previous Kindles, can't be "unlocked" or somehow gotten rid of the ads otherwise).


I purchased my Voyage with Special Offers so I could get it faster. I am planning to opt out of them when I get a cover that does the auto-awake. The Voyage's Special Offers setting can be modified at Amazon if you go into Manage Content and Devices. Go to Devices, choose the correct kindle, and then look for the Edit option near the Special Offers. If it's the first time you are planning to unsubscribe, you will be prompted about the cost to remove the offers. On my Voyage, it's $20.


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## mkelley (Dec 24, 2011)

Ah, thanks for the info.  I had thought you could do that for all the Kindles but looking at the demos for the Voyage it looked as though they removed that option.  Good to know they hadn't (although it does beg the question as to why it takes so much longer to get it *without* the offers if it's just a software option they can easily set otherwise).

But as I said above, I've come to the conclusion e-ink just isn't for me.  I hope I haven't wasted everyone's time here, because I do really appreciate all the help and advice.  I'm just glad we live in an age where they are so many possibilities that nearly everyone can find something suitable (although, as I said, I haven't gotten the *perfect* device just yet -- needs to be about as light and thin as a piece of cardboard, as sturdy as a piece of metal, and as easy to read and use as my iPad Air 2.  I'm guessing we are about three to five years away from such a device but then I'm usually overly optimistic when it comes to technology).


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## Morf (Nov 18, 2010)

mkelley said:


> It doesn't help that I'm a speed reader... I'm old and need large fonts...


Completely understand. If you put those two together you'll be in the situation where you'll be changing page every few seconds, at which stage the flicker becomes significant.

I remember a KBoards member from some years ago who needed the largest font and had similar problems:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,44659.msg786549.html



mkelley said:


> ...I've no doubt that at some point technology will have evolved to where my own particular set of requirements will be met perfectly, and I'll just continue to hope I live long enough to see that day.


There are certainly shortcomings in e-ink at present, and I think the flicker is one of the most significant. So far they seem to have only been able to come up with workrounds for this problem rather than resolve it completely. At present the push seems to be towards higher resolutions (and colour) which are good selling points but I'd rather see a significant improvement in the screen refresh technologies.

I'm not bothering with a Voyage at this time, I'm staying with my PW1. I don't believe that Voyage is that groundbreaking, and like you I'm hoping that something better will come in future.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

FWIW, in the course of helping someone with a completely different issue, I had occasion to be paging through my home screen (on the Voyage).  I definitely noticed the flash every 6 'page turns'.  When reading, I absolutely don't.  So clearly a case of 'different strokes. 

I do think the Voyage screen is better than my PW (2013 model). I can tell when I hold them side by side. But I doubt I'd notice if I didn't look really closely. And I recall feeling the same way when comparing the 2012 PW with the 2013 model.  It's definitely an incremental improvement in sharpness, clarity, and lighting. Worth it for me, but I totally get why it might not be for others.


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## FearIndex (Oct 10, 2012)

So Voyage does screen updates every 6 pages like older post-4ht Gen Kindles? Kindle (7th Generation) seems to do them only for pictures and chapter breaks. I've gone over 50 pages without a full refresh in testing. However, I like the full refresh option because of its predictability. When it always happens, it is easy to zone out from. If it only sometimes happens, it can feel jarring in those cases when it does.

As for how much the flash bothers, clearly depends on person. Perhaps this, too, is also a case of where those who got started on digital reading on a Kindle or other e-ink reader, find it easier to get used to it (because that's all they've known) compared to starting on an iPad.

That said, turning pages on a physical book is pretty jarring too. You loose the context even worse than you do on an e-ink e-reader that flashes. The e-ink flash is something where I'd give it definitely more than one evening to see if one can grow into it or not...

As for reading on an LCD, I think there is plenty of research it is bad for you right before going to sleep. That backlight keeps you awake for longer. So, as a bed-time reader mostly, for me that plays a really big part. That's why I also prefer externally lit Kindles to frontlit Kindles because the latter are a bit too screenlike. I've gotten used to the PW2, though. Also, if one starts fiddling with the LCD/AMOLED reader/tablet settings to compensate for this (like changing the color scheme to brown on brown), the contrast and the reading experience become pretty poor pretty fast.

E-ink's greatness is that it is very close to what printed paper actually looks like, because it is actually a physical re-alignment process of "ink", not a matrix of lights. This also means it is more stable, it just is there - like printed text, whereas an LCD is actually microflashing a little the whole time running its backlight. (A frontlit e-ink reader like PW/Voyage of course looses some of this benefit with that light.)

Finally, the flash is much quicker and shorter these days than it used to be. Kindle (7th Generation) absolutely screams from page to page, compared to, say, Kindle 2 or even the $69 Kindle 5.


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## Linjeakel (Mar 17, 2010)

I've set my Voyage, like my PW before it, to refresh on every page turn. I like to make sure that each page is as clean and crisp as it can be.

I _*know*_ that it flashes on each page turn - if I make a point of looking for it I can _*see*_ that it flashes on each page turn. But when I'm reading a book, I'm never consciously aware of it - my brain seems to be able to ignore it. I don't find it any more disturbing or disruptive than the turning of a paper page. I can imagine though that if you were aware of it all the time it would be irritating - I guess I'm just lucky.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

There's a page flash??

 

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> There's a page flash??
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy




The ONLY time I've noticed it -- I haven't changed from the default -- is when I was paging through the home page looking for something. Relatively a lot more white space on each page that way, and I wasn't focused on the words on the page, just scanning for a specific title. So more looking at the page as a whole rather than following the text.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't mean to make light of it for the people for whom it's a problem...but, seriously, the only reason I know there is a page flash is because people keep commenting on it.  I suppose if I looked for it I'd notice it.

I really don't see it any more than I think about the fact that turning a physical page blocks what I'm seeing as I turn it.

Betsy


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## rlkubi (Dec 7, 2009)

I've had the Kindle 2, Kindle Keyboard, 1st Paperwhite and now the Voyage.  I also had original Fire and now 8.9 Fire HDX.  I've loved all of them!  I do not like reading on my Fires though - I use that to surf the net and play games.  I do not reading on backlit screens.  I do read on my Galaxy S5 if waiting and don't have the Voyage.  I really like the Voyage a lot.  The flashing doesn't bother me at all!  But that's the beauty of things  -- we all have our own opinions .  Good luck with your search!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I don't mean to make light of it for the people for whom it's a problem...but, seriously, the only reason I know there is a page flash is because people keep commenting on it. I suppose if I looked for it I'd notice it.
> 
> I really don't see it any more than I think about the fact that turning a physical page blocks what I'm seeing as I turn it.
> 
> Betsy


Agreed -- another case of different strokes.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

rlkubi said:


> The flashing doesn't bother me at all! But that's the beauty of things -- we all have our own opinions . Good luck with your search!


Exactly. And for those it bothers, be sure to provide Amazon feedback! [email protected]

Betsy


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