# The Grass is Greener Over Here



## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Okay, I have a massive amount of work, but I have to post this because it's something that many people on this board will deal with at some time or another.

Many of us salivate at the idea of a traditional deal. Me too. I'm not an exception. Even with my control freak, I-wanna-do-it-myself idiosyncrasies, it still looks like some pretty green grass over there, so when I turned down a few offers from the big boys a couple of months ago it made me really uncomfortable. The biggest hook they dangled was X amount of cash is here on the table now. It's a set number, sure thing. If I continued and pubbed my 2nd book without them, _*well, who knows what I might end up with. *_ I heard that over and over again. It's a sales tactic that's used to close a sale/ deal - it's called fear of loss - and it's STRONG.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, right? Well, that depends. And now that I know the bush had half a million DAMAGED birds in it and counting, I want the whole damn bush - birds, roots, and all. 

My 2nd book in my series came out last week. In ONE week that title outsold the highest offer for the entire series. It was really hard to say no over and over again. There was a lot of pressure on me to just take the deal. I'm not gonna lie and say I was laughing about it, because it really freaked me out. I walked away from a huge pile of cash, it was painstakingly difficult, and it paid off. There's much more to consider than just the one bird in the bush. That's a very narrow way to view sales potential. I mean, there's a whole fricken forest around the bush. We need to see the big picture.

Anyway, more Indies will be pulled aside and given offers from trad pubs. Do the math. Estimate your sales (use pass through rates and est spill into your other works to get a number - don't do _feels like this book is worth_), and see what number you come up with. If they hit that magic number, awesome. But if they don't, going it alone isn't bad. It's actually very awesome. 

Just throwing it out there... The grass is greener over here.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

WOW!  I just have to laugh, Holly - that is so awesome!  I bet you can't stop smiling!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

But you'd do a print-only, right? Where you keep the ebook rights? I would think those are always good.


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## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

What an incredible situation to be in! And thank you so much for all your inspiring posts. I'm echoing Dalya when I say a print only deal would be awesome! Right?


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Dalya said:


> But you'd do a print-only, right? Where you keep the ebook rights? I would think those are always good.


It depends on the offer and that's kind of my point. Having someone ask, DO YOU WANT A PILE OF MONEY is awesome. I almost nodded and said yes. But I've been paying attention to sell through rates on series and knew how many copies of book 1 I'd already sold, so I had a solid number (which was low btw) and they didn't come close. Having the balls to ask for that number is another matter completely.


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## Magda Alexander (Aug 13, 2011)

One week? Yowza! That's so great!  Good on you for staying strong.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Great story. I am glad you stuck to your guns and resisted the temptation!


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Turning down a publishing deal was unheard of a couple of years ago. Gotta love this new landscape.


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## KellyHarper (Jul 29, 2012)

Congratulations! I'd like to be put to that choice, too


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

I totally admire you for being able to keep a cool head when the men in black suits opened up the briefcase and a pile of cash spilled out. It was all yours if only you'd say, "Yes." But you were a savvy negotiator. You went in knowing what your work was worth. You *knew* the pile of cash, however impressive, was too small.

I'm happy to hear that you eclipsed their best offer in the first week. That is beyond awesome, and you deserve every penny of that validation. Thanks for sharing this inspirational story. I hope I need to follow your example some day.


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

Good for ya Miss Ward.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Your situation is so far above what I'm facing, so I don't have a clue what I'd do in your situation. All I can say is congratulations and I can't imagine where you'll be in a couple of years, but no doubt it will be somewhere amazing.

In my personal situation as a midlister, I looked at my contract offer as insurance. A million bucks would be great, but having to look for a real job would be far, far worse. My number one goal is to make enough to keep doing this for a living. That's why I opted for a hybrid career. Like buying bonds when stocks are booming, it was to diversify my portfolio.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

The business as they operate it is really pretty simple. Convince you you're worth less than you actually are, because every dime you underestimate your worth is their additional profit. I think you're in an enviable position, namely you're racking in big bucks, so the offer of yet more big bucks doesn't have the allure that it might for someone who doesn't grasp how the game has fundamentally changed. Their job is to convince you that you should be flattered they want you, that you need them, and that you're basically screwed if you don't take their offer - that the risk and danger is too great, thus their offer of a sure thing should be jumped at. It's seductive. And their worst nightmare is someone for whom their lowball sure thing just ain't all that sweet. Because then you'll only take a fair deal, and they're largely used to dictating terms and operating from a position of strength. Same in all the arts. Music, books, film, whatever. That all changes once they just want you, and aren't trying to give you the rube deal any longer. I predict bigger things in your future. Call it a hunch.

Congrats on playing this one perfectly. That's got to be sweeter than any advance they could have given you - knowing you bet on yourself, and it was the right bet.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> In my personal situation as a midlister, I looked at my contract offer as insurance. A million bucks would be great, but having to look for a real job would be far, far worse. My number one goal is to make enough to keep doing this for a living. That's why I opted for a hybrid career. Like buying bonds when stocks are booming, it was to diversify my portfolio.


I've seen this theory repeated here often, but I still can't decide if this strategy is an example of diversification, false diversification, hedging, or forwarding.

B.


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## 25803 (Oct 24, 2010)

blakebooks said:


> Congrats on playing this one perfectly. That's got to be sweeter than any advance they could have given you - knowing you bet on yourself, and it was the right bet.


Blake said this so eloquently, it bears repeating.

Thank you for sharing, Holly! And yay, you!


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't know... I think if I was offered a print-only deal but could keep the e-book rights, then I might take it. The only reason I would want to go the traditional route is for distribution of my paperbacks. A big publisher can get my book in places that I, alone, can't. The money factor would really be a minor thing IMO. Of course, I do want to be paid for my work, but I just want more exposure with my book. I don't make nearly as much on my paperbacks like I do my ebooks, but it would be nice to be able to see my book in foreign countries (and even translated to various languages).

I'm all about self-publishing, though, which is why I would want to keep my ebook rights, because I can do all that myself. But traditional paperbacks can be a whole different monster.


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I think the lesson here, from you and Howey, is to basically stick to your guns. People will try to offer you bad deals... find one that works for you, and only for you. If you can, great. If you can't, then walk. Gotta put on your business hat and like money.

It's funny because I've never had any kind of offer of any sort on anything I've written. I'd probably fall into a blubbering wreck begging to sign. Or maybe not. Who knows. 

Awesome story though! And, of course, grats on your success.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

So awesome and inspiring to know what is possible ahead! I go the trad route in certain deals to have some eggs in other baskets, so to speak. Other than that, the grass has been greener over here the past year for me too. Not in the same amount you're talking about  but definitely thousands more. I had a topic a couple of months back showing the six months royalty of a certain book whose rights I haven't yet gotten back. It was pa-the-tic. Meanwhile, the other books I've re-pubbed flourish.


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## Cege Smith (Dec 11, 2011)

I think you touched on a few really important things, Holly. You can't go into those types of negotiations without knowing the data. Facts and figures trump emotion and help you keep a level head. When you are talking that kind of money, you don't want to make rash decisions.

I think it's fantastic that you stayed true to yourself and what was right for you. Your success is your proof.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I've seen this theory repeated here often, but I still can't decide if this strategy is an example of diversification, false diversification, hedging, or forwarding.
> 
> B.


Justin, I think it's none of the above. I see print-only trade publishing as advertising for an author's ebooks.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Congratulations and good work.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks for posting this, HM.  Recently I turned down an offer from a trad pub.  It was nothing even close to the outskirts of the ballpark of your offer, I am sure (it was from a small press) but even though this particular book isn't selling really well right NOW, I felt it could do better than what they were offering, and I didn't trust the contract to not spring some "you can't get your rights back when we said you could" loophole-trap on me.  

Yes, especially for those of us who are a little older (30s +) it's really difficult to walk away from a tradpub deal.  It does feel somewhat uncomfortable.  I think younger writers have matured with the acceptance of self-publishing but for the rest of us it was always the thing you should NEVER do if you wanted a real career.  It's hard to go 180 degrees from what you always knew to be true and walk away from the one thing that meant you were "a real writer" just a few years ago.

Your decision to walk away has paid off for you.  Mine hasn't yet.  But I'm confident it will. If nothing else, it felt really good to be able to say, "I have sales figures from my other books that give me a rational reason to think that this book can do better on its own than what you're offering."  Really understanding the actual value of your own work is kind of priceless and really empowering.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

RM Prioleau said:


> I don't know... I think if I was offered a print-only deal but could keep the e-book rights, then I might take it. The only reason I would want to go the traditional route is for distribution of my paperbacks. A big publisher can get my book in places that I, alone, can't. The money factor would really be a minor thing IMO. Of course, I do want to be paid for my work, but I just want more exposure with my book. I don't make nearly as much on my paperbacks like I do my ebooks, but it would be nice to be able to see my book in foreign countries (and even translated to various languages).
> 
> I'm all about self-publishing, though, which is why I would want to keep my ebook rights, because I can do all that myself. But traditional paperbacks can be a whole different monster.


I _can _think of situations where I'd sell the ebook rights to certain of my books, but the contract would have to be absolutely, crystal clear on when and under what circumstances those rights would revert to me. I certainly would never sign a contract with a non-compete clause, nor one that gave a publisher or agent "first dibs" on anything I wrote.

I don't think it's always a bad idea to part with ebook rights, but you have to be VERY aware of how the contract is worded and go into it with eyes wide open. The right publisher promoting one ebook for you could drive a ton of new readers toward all the other ebooks that are still under your control.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Congrats, Holly! Thank you so much for posting this. I think more and more indies need to hear how much better off they can be by sticking with self-publishing. By the time anyone is offering you 6 and 7-figure deals, you will probably make that and much more on your own.

The highest offer I ever had was for the entire Silo Saga (Wool, Shift, and Dust). It was less than I've earned on my own since the offer was made. I agonized over that offer, lost sleep over that offer, and looking back makes me shake my head in wonder. Every sale going forward is complete bonus. I can't help but think many other indies who did take such deals harmed themselves, not just with total earnings, but by turning off their readers with huge increases in e-book prices and delays to publication. There is a lot more to consider beyond having your book in a store somewhere.

I should also mention that the major factor behind me signing a print-only deal here in the US is that it came with a limited term of license. In 7 years, I get all the rights back and can return to POD, which keeps my book in print forever. What indies really need to consider is the horizon. Your book can be available for all of time, and you can have the power to lower the price, give copies away, change the cover, add something special to the story, release an anniversary edition, etc. Twenty years from now, you will care about your books. No one else will.

The other truth is this: Contracts will improve and offers will become reasonable the more we hold fast. Bella Andre, HM Ward, Michael J. Sullivan, Colleen Hoover, and so many others are making it easier for all of us. I'm eternally grateful for the hard decisions they've made.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

The only way I'd ever go print-only contract (not that I'm ever likely to be offered one) would be for each individual story to be illustrated - that's the one big objection I'm getting to my book, that there are no illustrations.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

Congrats. Courage paid off!


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

cegesmith said:


> I think you touched on a few really important things, Holly. You can't go into those types of negotiations without knowing the data. Facts and figures trump emotion and help you keep a level head. When you are talking that kind of money, you don't want to make rash decisions.
> 
> I think it's fantastic that you stayed true to yourself and what was right for you. Your success is your proof.


Yes, definitely this.

And just ... Wow. You're my new hero. I admire you for standing your ground, believing in yourself and having faith in your future.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> The highest offer I ever had was for the entire Silo Saga (Wool, Shift, and Dust). It was less than I've earned on my own since the offer was made. I agonized over that offer, lost sleep over that offer, and looking back makes me shake my head in wonder. Every sale going forward is complete bonus. I can't help but think many other indies who did take such deals harmed themselves, not just with total earnings, but by turning off their readers with huge increases in e-book prices and delays to publication. There is a lot more to consider beyond having your book in a store somewhere.


But if you keep the e-book rights, then you can set the price however you want, can't you?

Why would it be more of a hassle to release your paperbacks rights to a traditional company? At this point, I'm not worried about the money. I just want my books to be seen/read by as many people as possible. Perhaps I am setting my sights a bit low, but I never expected to get rich off this. Writing has always been a hobby, but I would like to share my stories with the world.

But of course, I don't want to screw myself over either and completely surrender all of my rights to a publisher and never get it back. I realize you have to read the fine print. But I'm just wondering what other things do you really have to consider when doing the 'you keep ebook rights and publisher has paperback rights' route?


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Congratulations!  It seems odd for me to be speaking in support of traditional publishing but like Michael Wallace I want to point out that not every traditional deal is a bad one.  When I signed my contract, I walked in with my eyes wide open and the realization that I would probably lose $200,000 in the process.  But the way I looked at it, it was only one deal and I have plenty of books in me.  As it turned out I didn't lose the $200,000 and while I can't say with 100% certainty (without having an alternate reality handy) I do think that it was without doubt the right decision for me and my career.

But I consider each offer separately.  For The Riyria Chronicles, I once again signed with Orbit, because my numbers showed that I'd make more money that way.  For Hollow World, I turned down a good offer because I thought I could do better in self. Then I did a kickstarter, sold the print-only rights, and sold the audio rights. I still have to work the foreign markets for this book, but I'm happy with my decision on that one.

What will I do with my current WIP?  I have no idea. The landscape changes almost on a day-by-day basis so I keep my options open and consider using ALL avenues that will continue the fulltime writing train to stay on the tracks.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

What an agonizing decision that must have been.  Kudos to you for being so brave.  Congrats!!


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## 60865 (Jun 11, 2012)

I wanna be like you if I ever grow up


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> the US is that it came with a limited term of license. In 7 years, I get all the rights back and can return to POD, which keeps my book in print forever.


SHUT UP! How the hell did you do that? I feel like I'm asking my agent to find outlandish things. The other day I was wondering why foreign sales has limited usage rights and wondered why it wasn't like that for US sales. When I ask these things, they say I'm a crazy person. I need to tell ppl that pigs are flying b/c of authors like you, and maybe Im not that nuts.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

The wonderful thing is that we live in an age where we all have choices. That's what's important.


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## Mr. RAD (Jan 4, 2011)

Most of us have absolutely _no_ idea how difficult it was for you to make the decision you made. To bet on yourself has got to be one of the most courageous things one can do.

Kudos to you, my lady, and congratulations on the success of _Damaged 2._


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

David Adams said:


> I'd probably fall into a blubbering wreck begging to sign.


I'll admit to the first part. It was bizarre. I got more nervous than that one time I got pimped by an attending neurosurgeon in the OR for thirteen excruciating hours. Fortunately, I had some trusted friends available to talk me off the ledge. Made more in the next three months than the terms of the deal. (YMMV and whatnot.)

B.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Congratulations, Holly. That's amazing. And good for you for believing in yourself and your work.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Hugh Howey said:


> I'm eternally grateful for the hard decisions they've made.


+1


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks for posting this Holly! I gotta tell you with all the brown bars I have right now, if a trade publisher approached me I'd probably jump on it.

Yeah, yeah, it's the beginning of the month and I just started publishing two months ago. I'm soooo impatient. 

Your post helps me to keep focus, keep writing, keep publishing, and not lose sight of what is possible. Thanks for the inspiration!


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Congratulations on your epic success. I can't even wrap my mind around it.

The publishers must be on crack if they didn't offer you the moon after last month.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Very timely reminder, Holly. I recently had an offer, got scared and turned it down - but now it's back on the table. I'm finding it extremely confusing to work out the best way forward. My biggest positive is that I'd be over-the-moon to work with this particular group. My biggest negative is the unknown. With this series I've written, I'm not a big seller and probably never will be, but so far momentum has been building and with self-publishing I know what I'm doing (at least, I can make my own decisions and I'm very much a self-starter).

All I can say is, it's certainly a new publishing landscape. And Holly, I've been so impressed with what you've done - a massive achievement!


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Anya said:


> I'm not a big seller and probably never will be,


Dude, that's what I thought. I was in midlist euphoria. Wallflower wonderland.  I totally planned on camping out there and not being noticed. So much for my plans.  And your momentum is one of the biggest things you have going for you. It builds and doesn't stop if you keep up the pace. Pacing is important!


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## Lanie Jordan (Feb 23, 2011)

That's awesome!   Congrats on all the success, and for, like the others have said, betting on yourself and winning. 

I hope more indies can do the same or at least get better deals!


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## Lanie Jordan (Feb 23, 2011)

Oh, and I thought it'd be cool to point out that Holly has 5 books in the top #100.  (I think there were a few more earlier, though.)


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## Nathan Elliott (May 29, 2012)

h.m. ward said:


> When I ask these things, they say I'm a crazy person.


First, let me acknowledge the irony of me offering advice to you as you handily clobber the bestseller lists. I am also not sure how seriously that comment was made. But, assuming it was serious:

If you have not read up on negotiation tactics, you might want to do so with this alleged craziness in mind. Don't take these things at face value. I don't think they actually think you're crazy at all. But maybe they'd like you to think it. It is not 1990, and it is silly not to ask for what makes sense now in 2013. No matter what they may outwardly show, I think they will respect you more if you keep asking. Even if they do honestly think it is crazy on their end to agree to something you are proposing, I think things that they try to make you feel crazy about asking for now might become pretty common in a few years, and it would be a shame to have signed away rights with bad reversion clauses before that happens. Maybe that is too obvious to need pointing out, but I think the whole "you're crazy" act is difficult for many people (including me, and I can be kind of arrogant when I'm not careful) to stand up to. You used your own numbers and reasoning to steer clear of an ebook mistake, and I hope you'll do the same in print if it is actually a mistake.

Anyway, I hope I am not insulting your intelligence. Like I say, I have felt vulnerable to this trick and I am possibly projecting here. Thanks for sharing this post, and congrats!


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Good for you, Holly! It must have been a tough decision - I'm glad it paid off for you.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Lady_O said:


> I wanna be like you if I ever grow up


Ooh me too! I wouldn't even know where to begin with sales estimations and so on.

So happy for your success. It's really inspiring


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Well done on sticking to your guns!

That's got to be a tricky call to make, and I'm really pleased that you chose the best route.  

I like to think that I'd do the same if I was ever in that position - but we never know until we're faced with it.  I think that it's a decision that everyone has to make for themselves.  

Good for you!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

They were stupid not to offer you more.  Your agent should have showed them the numbers.  I hope she did!

Congrats and a huge pat on the back for being business smart on top of being a fabulously talented author.  Such a rare combination, but I'm seeing it more and more!!  I love that you're sticking to your guns and insisting on the best for yourself and your family, and by default, all the other indies out there.

And thank you especially for sharing.  You're really helping this whole publishing industry with posts like this.  HAT'S OFF!!


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Congrats, Holly! Thank you so much for posting this. I think more and more indies need to hear how much better off they can be by sticking with self-publishing. By the time anyone is offering you 6 and 7-figure deals, you will probably make that and much more on your own.
> 
> The highest offer I ever had was for the entire Silo Saga (Wool, Shift, and Dust). It was less than I've earned on my own since the offer was made. I agonized over that offer, lost sleep over that offer, and looking back makes me shake my head in wonder. Every sale going forward is complete bonus. I can't help but think many other indies who did take such deals harmed themselves, not just with total earnings, but by turning off their readers with huge increases in e-book prices and delays to publication. There is a lot more to consider beyond having your book in a store somewhere.
> 
> ...


YES!! This and this and this again!! With all of you blazing the trail, what's crazy awesome now could eventually become somewhat mainstream. Power to the people! Whoo hooo!


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Congratulations Holly. What you and Hugh, and a few others did, was to refuse to fund all the bad decisions made by big publishers. In the '90s, I was told that 3% of books on a publisher's list account for all profit. Assuming that hasn't changed much, you now know why their offer was so low...they want you to help pay for all their mistakes.

One of the few weapons publishers have left is the neediness of writers to be 'recognized'. Lord knows what cash equivalent they factor into that when planning negotiations.

If you guys keep this up, and build a resistance movement, authors will be approaching any publishers who remain, asking if the publisher _would like to work for them_, marketing and distributing. In fact, a savvy publisher should be setting up to do just that now, if they want to survive.

Good luck to you and to Hugh, to the resistance, and to all authors.

Joe


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## Scott Daniel (Feb 1, 2011)

You can't put a price tag on your independence, either. There's a whole lot to be said for being your own boss and not being beholden to anyone. Why put that extra pressure on yourself when you making plenty of money on your own?


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for posting this Holly. It's inspiring & congrats on your wonderful success and decisions. You too, Hugh!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Congratulations! Those sales were awesome, and I'd bet extremely validating for your decision. 

Thanks for letting us know about the offer, and how you made the choice not to accept. Knowledge is power, and as others have said, it's important to understand the changing landscape of publishing.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Congratulations.

I've sat on panels this past year where I hear an author who has had wonderful self-pub success with a first title jump at an offer from NY and I shake my head.  I know there's a "prestige" factor-- until you actually do it.  Print distribution is losing it's punch for all but the top authors.  B&N is on the ropes and also fighting with S&S.  One has to remember the print percentage is really skewed because of the top 5% of authors being in supermarkets, Costco, Sams, Target, etc.  Places where most midlist authors aren't going to get racked.

It is a numbers game.  But it is also a looking to the future game.  In 2010 few "gurus" predicted correctly where publishing would be in 2013.  Right now, most are wrong about 2016.  I walked away from BEA this year shaking my head at the false optimism that was being generated.

Everyone is in a different situation, so everyone has to make different choices.  I just saw that Sylvia Day, who is a leading indie, is also perhaps the leading trad in that she signed an eight figure deal for US rights and seven figure for UK.  That's certainly a different scenario.

There are many roads to Oz and Oz means different things for different people.


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## 66443 (Dec 29, 2012)

YAY HOLLY!!!!  

I totally want to be in your positition someday soon while having the confidence to say no.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> But if you keep the e-book rights, then you can set the price however you want, can't you?
> 
> Why would it be more of a hassle to release your paperbacks rights to a traditional company? At this point, I'm not worried about the money. I just want my books to be seen/read by as many people as possible. Perhaps I am setting my sights a bit low, but I never expected to get rich off this. Writing has always been a hobby, but I would like to share my stories with the world.
> 
> But of course, I don't want to screw myself over either and completely surrender all of my rights to a publisher and never get it back. I realize you have to read the fine print. But I'm just wondering what other things do you really have to consider when doing the 'you keep ebook rights and publisher has paperback rights' route?


My take on it is this: Unless your book becomes an enduring classic, it won't be on the shelves for seven years. At the seven year point, the company is basically selling your book on special orders and Amazon, and you can meet that need with POD just as easily.

If it turns out that your book is an enduring classic, and IS on bookstore shelves and they're still doing print runs for it seven years after the fact, it's easy to negotiate for a re-up of the contract, and the publisher will be jumping with joy to do it.

It's always easy to negotiate to give the publisher an additional term of license if circumstances prove necessary, and hard to negotiate to take away licenses once given. It just makes sense to give the most limited term of license you can get away with, and if it turns out that you need to grant them more, grant them more.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> My take on it is this: Unless your book becomes an enduring classic, it won't be on the shelves for seven years. At the seven year point, the company is basically selling your book on special orders and Amazon, and you can meet that need with POD just as easily.
> 
> If it turns out that your book is an enduring classic, and IS on bookstore shelves and they're still doing print runs for it seven years after the fact, it's easy to negotiate for a re-up of the contract, and the publisher will be jumping with joy to do it.
> 
> It's always easy to negotiate to give the publisher an additional term of license if circumstances prove necessary, and hard to negotiate to take away licenses once given. It just makes sense to give the most limited term of license you can get away with, and if it turns out that you need to grant them more, grant them more.


As far as I know, the extent of POD that I can do for my paperbacks is Amazon. I don't think you can get it in B&N or other places via 'special orders'. Is that the extent of what big publishers do, as well?

I know quite a few authors who are published traditionally, who aren't in physical bookstores, but their books are still widely distributed/noticed throughout the world. Is there some other kind of advertising that publishes do to bring awareness to their not-so-popular paperbacks/authors that I'm unaware about?


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> As far as I know, the extent of POD that I can do for my paperbacks is Amazon. I don't think you can get it in B&N or other places via 'special orders'. Is that the extent of what big publishers do, as well?
> 
> I know quite a few authors who are published traditionally, who aren't in physical bookstores, but their books are still widely distributed/noticed throughout the world. Is there some other kind of advertising that publishes do to bring awareness to their not-so-popular paperbacks/authors that I'm unaware about?


Here's my POD book on Barnes & Noble's website: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-duchess-war-courtney-milan/1113915769?ean=9781481207478&itm=1&usri=the+duchess+war Here it is on indiebound: http://www.indiebound.org/book/9781481207478

I have people special order my POD books all the time. Use LSI or Amazon's extended distribution.

By contrast, my first traditionally published book on Barnes and Noble: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/proof-by-seduction-courtney-milan/1100346793?ean=9781460302804

Notice that you can't buy a new copy. That's because it's out of print, and new print editions of that book have been unavailable since mid 2011. At this point, my first two traditionally published books (out in 2010) are both unavailable as new print editions. You have to buy them used. My second two traditionally published books (out in 2011) are still available, but give it another year and you won't be able to find them in print.

So my self-published POD books are more available than my traditionally published books.

I'm not sure what you mean by "their books are still widely distributed" if they're not in physical bookstores. How is it distribution if it isn't distributed?


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Lady Vine said:


> Turning down a publishing deal was unheard of a couple of years ago. Gotta love this new landscape.


My sentiments exactly. I am nowhere NEAR Holly's status but five years ago I turned down and offer and between November 2011 and April 2012, I made a LOT more than that offer. The times they are a'changing.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

h.m. ward said:


> Okay, I have a massive amount of work, but I have to post this because it's something that many people on this board will deal with at some time or another.
> 
> Many of us salivate at the idea of a traditional deal. Me too. I'm not an exception. Even with my control freak, I-wanna-do-it-myself idiosyncrasies, it still looks like some pretty green grass over there, so when I turned down a few offers from the big boys a couple of months ago it made me really uncomfortable. The biggest hook they dangled was X amount of cash is here on the table now. It's a set number, sure thing. If I continued and pubbed my 2nd book without them, _*well, who knows what I might end up with. *_ I heard that over and over again. It's a sales tactic that's used to close a sale/ deal - it's called fear of loss - and it's STRONG.
> 
> ...


So they put the fear of God into you and you eclipse their number in a week. Good on you! That's must feel awesome!! Thanks for sharing your experience.

This is what I love about KBoards and this group of writers--the sharing of experience, the camaraderie, the celebrating, and the support given in the day-to-day existence of being and staying _independent_; because, let's face it; some days are harder than others.


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## KOwrites (May 23, 2011)

Bob Mayer said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> I've sat on panels this past year where I hear an author who has had wonderful self-pub success with a first title jump at an offer from NY and I shake my head. I know there's a "prestige" factor-- until you actually do it. Print distribution is losing it's punch for all but the top authors. B&N is on the ropes and also fighting with S&S. One has to remember the print percentage is really skewed because of the top 5% of authors being in supermarkets, Costco, Sams, Target, etc. Places where most midlist authors aren't going to get racked.
> 
> ...


+1


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

h.m. ward said:


> > From Hugh: In 7 years, I get all the rights back and can return to POD, which keeps my book in print forever.
> 
> 
> SHUT UP! How the hell did you do that? I feel like I'm asking my agent to find outlandish things. The other day I was wondering why foreign sales has limited usage rights and wondered why it wasn't like that for US sales. When I ask these things, they say I'm a crazy person. I need to tell ppl that pigs are flying b/c of authors like you, and maybe Im not that nuts.


Haha - I'm going to beat Hugh on this one - my print-only deal is for 4 years then revert - SCORE!

H.M. You are definitely not nuts - the Life of copyright terms and low thresholds of sales for reversions have GOT TO GO! Keep insisting and we'll get there.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> They were stupid not to offer you more. Your agent should have showed them the numbers. I hope she did!


They should have offered a print-only deal. Then Holly could have her 70% ebook and they could do what they do best - distribute paper. Maybe they'll come back with that the way they did with Hugh. We need more print-only deals!!

I would definitely go back to them with that 1 month's sales that beat their offer and say, "Look you want a piece of this action...you can have it - print only or nothing.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> My take on it is this: Unless your book becomes an enduring classic, it won't be on the shelves for seven years. At the seven year point, the company is basically selling your book on special orders and Amazon, and you can meet that need with POD just as easily.


Very true. But remember that the contract can terminate if they remainder or sell out and don't reprint. Print-only isn't like ebooks - where they are always around. It's easy to go "out of print" in a paper world. So reverting after a year or so if you stop selling well is certainly possible.


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## Maggie Dana (Oct 26, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> They should have offered a print-only deal. Then Holly could have her 70% ebook and they could do what they do best - distribute paper. Maybe they'll come back with that the way they did with Hugh. We need more print-only deals!!


This X 100 !!!


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

Maggie Dana said:


> This X 100 !!!


ditto!


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Congrats, Holly!

I'm a new guy here, but after reading all that Konrath, Howley, and Blake have to say on this subjet (not to mention being COMPLETELY frustrated with my Traditional Publisher), I've decided to wade into the waters... Thanks for posting this and letting a newbie know that the waters are all *still* fine, not to mention welcoming. 

Looking forward to learning lots and interacting with the lot of you...not to mention publishing some books!


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Ashy said:


> I'm a new guy here, but after reading all that Konrath, Howley, and Blake have to say on this subjet (not to mention being COMPLETELY frustrated with my Traditional Publisher), I've decided to wade into the waters... Thanks for posting this and letting a newbie know that the waters are all *still* fine, not to mention welcoming.


Welcome!


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## Ashy (Jul 2, 2013)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Welcome!


Thanks a ton, Michael! I know one thing - looking at all of the awesome books in all of these author sigs lets me know I need to add to my Kindle budget! So much to read - so little time!


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

You made the right decision.

Traditional publishing does provide insurance. But like many insurance products, they're expensive-- you expect to take a loss on it. Sometimes it makes sense to take that loss anyway for the piece of mind. But it's worth remembering that insurance is costly.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

From the title, I thought "here" meant 1m+ sales...


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

It would seem that the grass is lush over here.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

I cannot imagine ever taking a deal that included my ebook rights. I can manage those better than a publisher just as they can manage print better than me.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Congratulations, Holly. It's got to be awesome knowing you made the right decision. 

And Hugh is right, you're paving the way for future authors. So wonderful. The deal I turned down was really nothing, but I was still anxious to turn it down. I know I did the right thing, even if it was just to help future authors get better deals than what they tried to give me.

The grass is greener here in indie land.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Welcome!


+1 / Welcome!


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> SHUT UP! How the hell did you do that? I feel like I'm asking my agent to find outlandish things. The other day I was wondering why foreign sales has limited usage rights and wondered why it wasn't like that for US sales. When I ask these things, they say I'm a crazy person. I need to tell ppl that pigs are flying b/c of authors like you, and maybe Im not that nuts.
> 
> Haha - I'm going to beat Hugh on this one - my print-only deal is for 4 years then revert - SCORE!
> 
> H.M. You are definitely not nuts - the Life of copyright terms and low thresholds of sales for reversions have GOT TO GO! Keep insisting and we'll get there.


4?!?!?! My offers were for lifetime rights on EVERYTHING. When they found out that I already produced the audiobook, they didn't want to give up the rights to it--and this was after telling me that audio wasn't worth anything. Of course ebooks aren't worth anything either... 

4!

I'm totally going to start asking for some crazy ass stuff and see what happens.  1 BAJILLION DOLLARS!


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

love it!!!!!


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## LG Castillo (Jun 28, 2012)

h.m. ward said:


> 4?!?!?! My offers were for lifetime rights on EVERYTHING. When they found out that I already produced the audiobook, they didn't want to give up the rights to it--and this was after telling me that audio wasn't worth anything. Of course ebooks aren't worth anything either...
> 
> 4!
> 
> I'm totally going to start asking for some crazy *ss stuff and see what happens.  1 BAJILLION DOLLARS!


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

h.m. ward said:


> 4?!?!?! My offers were for lifetime rights on EVERYTHING. When they found out that I already produced the audiobook, they didn't want to give up the rights to it--and this was after telling me that audio wasn't worth anything. Of course ebooks aren't worth anything either...
> 
> 4!
> 
> I'm totally going to start asking for some crazy *ss stuff and see what happens.  1 BAJILLION DOLLARS!


And just think, before forums like KB, authors had no way of sharing what publishers were doing, except in the bars at conferences (that you had to be able to afford the time and money to get to...).


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Diane Patterson said:


> And just think, before forums like KB, authors had no way of sharing what publishers were doing, except in the bars at conferences (that you had to be able to afford the time and money to get to...).


^This. And also the fact that authors were afraid to speak out against publishers because there was no other choice. If you were seen as a trouble maker, you were out. That was it. No more book deals and you were sunk.

Now writers can share without worry of being blacklisted.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Diane Patterson said:


> And just think, before forums like KB, authors had no way of sharing what publishers were doing, except in the bars at conferences (that you had to be able to afford the time and money to get to...).


That's what agents are supposed to do - to define the marketplace for their clients.

Edit: Congrats on your decision, HM.


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## H.M. Ward (May 16, 2012)

Linda Castillo said:


>












I love this place. Just sayin.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Holly, you are an absolute inspiration! 

Thank you for sharing this, and I am so glad you had the wisdom and the guts to stand your ground!


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

Congrats, Holly. Excellent judgment there.

Pretty weird, but when I posted about writing the third KillFile, with the third Novel on schedule for the Holiday Season, I was approached by a small press, but I didn't want to sign away all my rights. I think that print-only is the best way to go for many KBers.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

h.m. ward said:


> 4?!?!?! My offers were for lifetime rights on EVERYTHING. When they found out that I already produced the audiobook, they didn't want to give up the rights to it--and this was after telling me that audio wasn't worth anything. Of course ebooks aren't worth anything either...
> 
> 4!
> 
> I'm totally going to start asking for some crazy *ss stuff and see what happens.  1 BAJILLION DOLLARS!


Yeah the "life of copyright" drives me insane!! Seriously You want to own my rights until I die + 70 years? How many contracts do you know that have such a term? The big six has to completely change their attitude. And yeah the audio rights stuff is another thing that gets my blood boiling. I sold 11,000 audio books in 6 months (across 3 books) and my traditional publisher gets 50% of that revenue for doing what exactly? Absolutely nothing - all they did was sign a contract and for that they get half? I tried to get audio divorced from the contract for my second series with the big-five and couldn't. To make sure it's not an issue for my third series I did sell those rights now (even though I'm still writing it) so it was "off the table"


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

Diane Patterson said:


> And just think, before forums like KB, authors had no way of sharing what publishers were doing, except in the bars at conferences (that you had to be able to afford the time and money to get to...).


So very true...it is important for us to know that non-conventional deals are being made - and then use those deals to put the fire to the publisher's feet. Having options is what it's all about. I've said it before, my two traditional deals were good for me - and my publisher (while they toe the line like all of the big-five) are actually better than most. But I've used Kickstarter to provide income for editing/cover design/and a good advance. I've sold audio rights for works I've not written and it's all done, and now a print-only deal. All this gives me leverage for the next series' books. How will I publish them? I have no idea...like H.M. I'm going to analyze the numbers and decide from there.



Victorine said:


> And also the fact that authors were afraid to speak out against publishers because there was no other choice. If you were seen as a trouble maker, you were out. That was it. No more book deals and you were sunk. Now writers can share without worry of being blacklisted.


My agent was told by my publisher that they weren't happy with some of the things I say about traditional publishing. She was asked to tell me to "quit it." My response...if you are embarrassed by the people exposing the practices you're doing...maybe you should stop doing them.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> My agent was told by my publisher that they weren't happy with some of the things I say about traditional publishing. She was asked to tell me to "quit it." My response...if you are embarrassed by the people exposing the practices you're doing...maybe you should stop doing them.


That was a bad idea on their part for many reasons, not the least of which is that you might tell others they tried to shut you up. Like you just did. That sure doesn't make them look good.

They should applaud the reasoned approach you take when discussing the industry. You are not a trad-basher by a long shot. You are one of the successful hybrid authors who helps show all of us how trade publishing can still fit in our plans going forward. If anything, I would say you are PRO trade, when it is the right decision for the individual author's circumstances. You, Holly, Hugh, and others have shown the rest of us to run the numbers, resist the emotional influences, and do the thing that makes the most sense for our individual business goals.

I salute you all, while I wiggle my toes in the green grass.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> Here's my POD book on Barnes & Noble's website: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-duchess-war-courtney-milan/1113915769?ean=9781481207478&itm=1&usri=the+duchess+war Here it is on indiebound: http://www.indiebound.org/book/9781481207478
> 
> I have people special order my POD books all the time. Use LSI or Amazon's extended distribution.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is an eye-opener for me. I didn't know the inner workings of how a trad. publisher distributes vs. an indie publisher. So are you saying that all a trad. publisher does to distribute books widely is just use LSI or Expanded Distribution? The very same thing that an indie can use, also? If so, then this sort of defeats the purpose of me wanting to get a hybrid deal.

So why do so many people want to get trad. paperback deals and/or hybrid deals if they can do it all themselves and still get the same exposure? Or is it because they DON'T WANT to do all this themselves and would rather someone else do it?

So confused right now, but I hope I can try and understand all this correctly...


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> That was a bad idea on their part for many reasons, not the least of which is that you might tell others they tried to shut you up. Like you just did. That sure doesn't make them look good.
> 
> They should applaud the reasoned approach you take when discussing the industry. You are not a trad-basher by a long shot. You are one of the successful hybrid authors who helps show all of us how trade publishing can still fit in our plans going forward. If anything, I would say you are PRO trade, when it is the right decision for the individual author's circumstances. You, Holly, Hugh, and others have shown the rest of us to run the numbers, resist the emotional influences, and do the thing that makes the most sense for our individual business goals.
> 
> I salute you all, while I wiggle my toes in the green grass.


I totally understand why thy would say such a thing. You have to keep in mind that they come from a industry where there has traditionally been an incredible imbalance in power. For years it was "my way or the highway" and there really was no other choice so of course the practices favored them...why wouldn't it. The thing that publishers need to realize is that the times have changed. I often find myself thinking of the movie Gandhi where he says, "They [the British government] are not in control. We are." A ballsy statement from a man with no official title who had given up western ways to live a simple life of homespun cloth.

On any given day my posts will show "pro-trad" or "pro-self" because they really do BOTH offer valid choices worth considering. A few posts back David said he would never sell his ebook rights. I know why he would think that way, but I also now the advantages that the hybrid approach brings. But the publishers who were dealing with H.M. were operating in the "old school way." They wanted "all the rights forever." When the landscape was such that authors had no way to monetize rights if they kept them, this wasn't such a strange thing - after all if they weren't with the publisher they weren't working at all. But times have changed and they are just as valuable to a smart and savvy self-published author as they are to a traditional one and they have to realize that their competition isn't S&S verses Penguin but also traditional verses self-published.

Their "all or nothing" mentality got them exactly what they deserved....nothing. And H.M. making this public, so that other authors realize the possibilities arms us all with information and it is information and the leverage of power that will change things.

Bella started it with her first print-only deal. A day I truly never thought I would see. Then Hugh took that a step further and made the big-five see the light or miss the bus completely. Of course the problem is most of us don't have the sales that Bella, Colleen, and Hugh have so we have no leverage. But we have to keep chipping away. I see my print-only deal as another ***** in that armor. It won't be a big-five six or seven figure deal like Hugh's but in some ways I think it will be even more important as it will show that a good solid "midlister" can find that happy medium of using traditional what they do best (sell print books) and still make a good income by keeping ebook rights. You can bet I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure that my print-only publisher has AMAZING sales. I want to prove to them, and the industry that they need to do more of this...be willing to take a piece of the pie and let us all have share.

I truly hope that H.M's publishers reconsider. They need to make her a fixed-term print-only deal that gives her complete freedom to continue to earn on her ebook but still make a good profit and expand her readership base - which benefits both her and them. At least this is how I see it.


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## Michael_J_Sullivan (Aug 3, 2011)

RM Prioleau said:


> So are you saying that all a trad. publisher does to distribute books widely is just use LSI or Expanded Distribution? The very same thing that an indie can use, also? If so, then this sort of defeats the purpose of me wanting to get a hybrid deal.


Yes and no. A very small press is going to use POD just like a self-publisher would, so in this case they aren't bringing anything to the table that you can't get on your own. In both cases the books will be "for sale forever" and will generally be bought online through Amazon & B&N where most of the print books are sold anyway.

But a larger publisher...like I'm with or Courtney was when traditionally published. Have a different distribution system. They do a print run. Let's say 5,000 books for the sake of argument. Those go into a warehouse and the bookstores buy from the distributors (so they have just a few vendors instead of many vendors to deal with). The distributor or the publisher (or both) have entire sales teams that provide corporate buyers with their catalogs and convince them to put their books on the shelves. Getting them on shelves gives you more exposure, and more exposure can lead to more sales. As those books start selling one of three things are going to happen.

(a) they sell really well and fly out of the warehouse, in which case the publisher will do another printing, and another, and another as long as the books are selling well

(b) they will sell "okay" in which they will keep them in the warehouse until they run out and once that happens there are no more - this is the case she alluded to above where her earlier books have no new copies.

(c) they will sell terribly and the cost being incurred by the publisher in returns and warehousing outweigh the income they are getting. In which case they will force the book out of print. Essentially they will take it off the market and either pulp (shred) the books or they might selll them as remainders where some seller buys books by the pound and they are sold at used bookstores for a $1 or $2 a book.



RM Prioleau said:


> So why do so many people want to get trad. paperback deals and/or hybrid deals if they can do it all themselves and still get the same exposure? Or is it because they DON'T WANT to do all this themselves and would rather someone else do it?


Because you don't get the same exposure. I've sold 192,000 (across 3 titles) books through traditional. 80,500 of those have been print books through the extensive distribution system of my big-five publisher. When I was self-published I sold A LOT of ebooks (not as much as H.M. but I had several months where I sold 10,000 - 12,000 books a month). But my print sales were REALLY small - only a few hundred each month, because mine were POD and only bought online.

In many ways, you don't NEED print in that you can make a really good income with just ebooks. My traditional publishing move more books for me then when I was self-published, so I have more readers (my primary concern at this point) and it provides ENOUGH income so that I don't have to work a day job. But I sell better than many traditionally published authors. I know others that have sold just 5,000 over the whole time their books were in print and in that case THESE people would have been much better off by self-publishing.

There are many many factors to consider, and no easy answer. H.M. is right you have to do analyze what you think you'll realistically do in both scenarios then chose your path. For me, personally, I calculated that I would lose $200,000 by going traditional but I was willing to do so in order to get greater exposure. Now that turned out NOT to be the case, and as it turns out I ended up making more that I would have if I stayed self (or at least I think that is the case based on my revised calculations and actual sales). But it could have just as easily gone the other way

I hope that helps to explain things.


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## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> Yes and no. A very small press is going to use POD just like a self-publisher would, so in this case they aren't bringing anything to the table that you can't get on your own. In both cases the books will be "for sale forever" and will generally be bought online through Amazon & B&N where most of the print books are sold anyway.
> 
> But a larger publisher...like I'm with or Courtney was when traditionally published. Have a different distribution system. They do a print run. Let's say 5,000 books for the sake of argument. Those go into a warehouse and the bookstores buy from the distributors (so they have just a few vendors instead of many vendors to deal with). The distributor or the publisher (or both) have entire sales teams that provide corporate buyers with their catalogs and convince them to put their books on the shelves. Getting them on shelves gives you more exposure, and more exposure can lead to more sales. As those books start selling one of three things are going to happen.
> 
> ...


That really does help! Thank you!


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

h.m. ward said:


> My 2nd book in my series came out last week. In ONE week that title outsold the highest offer for the entire series. It was really hard to say no over and over again. There was a lot of pressure on me to just take the deal. I'm not gonna lie and say I was laughing about it, because it really freaked me out. I walked away from a huge pile of cash, it was painstakingly difficult, and it paid off. There's much more to consider than just the one bird in the bush. That's a very narrow way to view sales potential. I mean, there's a whole fricken forest around the bush. We need to see the big picture.


That's great. I'm glad you didn't yield to temptation.  Yey for you. And thank you for sharing your experience.



h.m. ward said:


> 4?!?!?! My offers were for lifetime rights on EVERYTHING. When they found out that I already produced the audiobook, they didn't want to give up the rights to it--and this was after telling me that audio wasn't worth anything. Of course ebooks aren't worth anything either...
> 4!
> I'm totally going to start asking for some crazy *ss stuff and see what happens.  1 BAJILLION DOLLARS!


I'm right now reading The Business Rusch: Selling Books Elsewhere on foreign deals, and I think that the paragraphs below are especially interesting:



> I get better terms for my books-including a limitation on the contract. Agents hate contract term limits, because the contract keeps the agent on board as well as the publisher. Most agent-negotiated foreign contracts that I've signed look suspiciously like American contracts, with the nasty icky rights clauses and the impossible reversions.
> 
> The foreign contracts I've negotiated myself don't have the icky rights clauses, and they have a time limit. The rights licensed in the contract will return to me after a certain number of years, and if the book is still selling well, then the publisher and I have the right to renew the contract on equal or better terms.
> 
> ...


which, I believe, is the reason why majority of publishing contract include "life of copyright" in it. And that the "*Agents hate contract term limits, because the contract keeps the agent on board as well as the publisher.* " is something that writers should keep in mind when dealing with agents and publishers. (When signing a contract, do it because it's it foremost benefits you, not your agent or publisher.)



Michael_J_Sullivan said:


> My agent was told by my publisher that they weren't happy with some of the things I say about traditional publishing. She was asked to tell me to "quit it." My response...if you are embarrassed by the people exposing the practices you're doing...maybe you should stop doing them.


I love this.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

This is an absolutely fantastic thread because it lets all of us know how the realm of what's possible has expanded.  Congrats, Ms. Ward!


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