# Why Your Sales Have Dropped



## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

There have been a lot of threads lately about sales dropping, and many of them are pointing the finger at Amazon. It isn't Amazon's fault. Some of this may apply to you.

*What you've done wrong.*
You have depended too much on Amazon to find customers for you. Too many authors are 100% dependent on Amazon to do the heavy lifting. Your sales depend on Amazon algorithms in order for Amazon's customers to find you, instead of you going out and finding your own customers.

*How you can fix it.*
Go find your own target market. Visit sites that cater to the type of people who would be interested in your book and start promoting there. Take advantage of services like Project Wonderful that allow you to place low-cost, highly targeted ads on sites frequented by the exact type of reader you are looking for. Use Facebook ads to build your author fan page using the demographic data they have available.

*What you've done wrong.*
You have kept all your eggs in one basket for too long. Your fixation on Amazon sales rank has led you to put all your efforts into generating sales at Amazon at the expense of other outlets. I've always said I would rather sell 50 books a month each on 20 different sites than sell 1,000 books on just Amazon. Spreading out your sales volume reduces your risk, so when sales slow in one location your entire business doesn't crumble.

*How you can fix it.*
Get your books up on other sites. Smashwords makes it easy to get your book into wider distribution. Seek out smaller niche retailers that cater to your specific genre. Get your book available in print using a service like Createspace or directly with LSI so that you have print distribution through a variety of retailers outside on Amazon. Then people who learn about your book can shop and the stores they are comfortable with, instead of having to shop where you tell them to.

*What you've done wrong.*
99 cents doesn't mean anything anymore. The race to the bottom has finally bottomed out. When most books were listed on Amazon at $9.99, selling a book for 99 cents seemed like a great deal to consumers who were not yet aware of the difference between indie books and traditionally published books. But with the surge in 99 cent books and the increased reader awareness that 99 cents = self-published, the only people buying 99 cent books these days are value shoppers that buy everything at 99 cents.

*How you can fix it.*
Raising your price may cause a temporary drop in sales, but will increase your overall profit. Particularly with genre fiction, the price has historically been between $4.99-$7.99. Pricing your book at the same level as your small press peers in the industry creates the impression that you are in the mainstream of your genre.

*What you've done wrong.*
You have spent too much time commiserating with other writers and not enough time looking for readers. Your blog, website, and sales pitches are all geared toward "indie writers" and use jargon the average reader doesn't know about or care about. You spend too much time promoting "indie books" and not enough time selling YOUR books to readers, readers who could care less whether or not a book is indie or trad.

*How you can fix it.*
Take DOWN the bright neon sign that screams "self-published author" and just be an "author." Readers don't care or have any desire to actively support self-publishers. They just want good books. Your fixation on being indie means that the only people who will find your books are people who actively search for indies, which are usually other indies looking for places to promote. Rewire your presentation to think about what is going to interest the average readers without shoving in their faces your self-published status.

*What you've done wrong.*
You have spent too much time blaming "the industry" for your problems. It is Amazon's fault your sales have slipped. The trads are up to no good. Nobody will give you a chance. Yada yada yada. While you may not realize it, your daily, public whining is seem by casual readers, who are put off by it.

*How you can fix it.*
There is an old saying in sales that goes "Fake it until you make it." That doesn't mean to lie. What it means is to stop placing blame and engaging in public baiting and start focusing on the positive in your business. Customers want to buy from people they believe are successful. The appearance of success gives a certain confidence to consumers that you know what you are doing and are producing quality books. Stop referring to yourself as an "unknown author," which simply reinforces the idea that you are nobody important. Stop referring to people in the traditional industry as "the enemy" and refer to them as "peers."

*What you've done wrong.*
Stop thinking "Outside the box" and look what is actually in the box first. You jump around from marketing gimmick to marketing gimmick without a clear plan or goal, hoping to reproduce someone else's success without understanding all of the nuances and factors that went into that success. Further, people are so busy recreating the wheel that they have forgotten what the wheel looks like.

*How you can fix it.*
Any marketing plan takes time. It can take years to build a strong fan base. Like the cliché goes, it is a marathon, not a sprint. Think small and then slowly expand so that you not only gain readers, but retain them for the long haul. A strong marketing plan requires a consistent message and repetition. Instead of jumping from place to place, focus your efforts on two or three sites to start that are frequented by the type of reader you want, and then use the existing tools to read those people on a regular basis. Most marketing professionals will tell you that the average consumer needs to see something seven times before they even remember it, let alone act on it. So your goal is to focus on repeating your message to a regular audience in order to build your base, and then expand out from there.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Great post.  And as one who "went Jersey" and soon found himself living in the Garden State I can say this with admiration and respect: "Spoken like a true Jersey Girl!"


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

Some things you can control and some things you can't.  So only worry about those that you can control.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

daveconifer said:


> Great post. And as one who "went ********" and soon found himself living in the Garden State I can say this with admiration and respect: "Spoken like a true ******** Girl!"


Yeah, we aren't known for being subtle.


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## SarahBarnard (Jul 28, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> (snipped)
> *What you've done wrong.*
> 99 cents doesn't mean anything anymore. The race to the bottom has finally bottomed out. When most books were listed on Amazon at $9.99, selling a book for 99 cents seemed like a great deal to consumers who were not yet aware of the difference between indie books and traditionally published books. But with the surge in 99 cent books and the increased reader awareness that 99 cents = self-published, the only people buying 99 cent books these days are value shoppers that buy everything at 99 cents.
> 
> ...


Pricing! Spot on! Thank you!
And the "box" thing, I love the way you put that. I'm off to explore the contents of my box.....


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There have been a lot of threads lately about sales dropping, and many of them are pointing the finger at Amazon. It isn't Amazon's fault. Some of this may apply to you.


<tongue in cheek>Can I blame Amazon since my listing was broken and they've admitted that was their fault? Except I've still got more sales this month than last month...</tongue out of cheek>

Seriously, if I hadn't had the book already available through Smashwords, that problem would have hit a lot harder than it did. I don't think you can overstate the need to reach more readers than just the Amazon market.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

Great advice, Julie.  Thank you so much!


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

VH Folland said:


> <tongue in cheek>Can I blame Amazon since my listing was broken and they've admitted that was their fault? Except I've still got more sales this month than last month...</tongue out of cheek>
> 
> Seriously, if I hadn't had the book already available through Smashwords, that problem would have hit a lot harder than it did. I don't think you can overstate the need to reach more readers than just the Amazon market.


My Amazon listings use to be fed via my mobipocket.com account. When Amazon decided to port everything directly to KDP, I was told it would be a "seamless transition" and I wouldn't have to do anything.

My listings ended up deactivated for A WEEK!

So yes, if I had only had Amazon listings, I would have been screwed. But since my books are available on dozens of sites, it resulted in little more than a blip. The only thing that really took a hit was my affiliate sales. But since I spend my affiliate income on books at Amazon, that hurt them more than me.


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## Jacqueline T Lynch (Dec 29, 2010)

Good advice.  A great shot in the arm.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> the only people buying 99 cent books these days are value shoppers that buy everything at 99 cents.


If they buy all of my 99 cent books, I would be delighted.

Keep in mind that smaller books should be priced cheaper.


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## ldenglish (Jul 18, 2009)

Excellent post. I'm guilty of some of those "what you've done wrong." One advantage of being an Indie is we can remedy our mistakes.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Great advice, especially the bit about multiple sales outlets.  After reading up on self-publishing for months, that's something I'd already decided was very important.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *How you can fix it.*
> Take DOWN the bright neon sign that screams "self-published author" and just be an "author." *Readers don't care or have any desire to actively support self-publishers. They just want good books. *Your fixation on being indie means that the only people who will find your books are people who actively search for indies, which are usually other indies looking for places to promote. Rewire your presentation to think about what is going to interest the average readers without shoving in their faces your self-published status.


Brilliant post.


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Very nicely done.


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## Mel Comley (Oct 13, 2010)

Yep, I agree with everything you say Julie, and have been putting certain things in place already.

I've been leading more people to Smashwords and receiving more sales there. I hate leading prospective buyers to my Amazon page especially when they're promoting another book on offer on it!

And yes now my editing is out of the way, I intend getting more involved in reader sites.

We'll see what happens.


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## Joseph Rhea (Nov 9, 2009)

Wise words (again) Julie. Fortunately for me I am already following most of them. The rest I will work on...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd like to expand on one of Julie's points: Stop marketing to writers*. Stop only following writers on Twitter. Stop only following writer blogs. Stop only going to writer websites. Stop only commenting on writing blogs. Stop only knowing writers on the internet and get out and do something writing-related in your local community. Stop complaining about your 1 star reviews and go write something. Stop whining that I called you names on my blog and go take a writing class. Stop whining that Amazon is out to get you and go distribute in other places.



> Readers don't care or have any desire to actively support self-publishers. They just want good books.


Most important thing said on the 'net in months.

*assuming your book isn't actually meant for writers.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Fantastic post! It's really made me feel motivated. As have some of the replies adding additional wisdom. I'm already doing some of the things, but once I've fulfilled some traditional writing commitments I have on hand, I'll return to this list of gems and see what I can do to put them into effect.

Many thanks!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Some good points although I don't know that all indie writers hold up a big sign or spend all their time whining.

Still several of those points are worth thinking about.

Edit: Maybe I shouldn't say anything though since my sales haven't dropped. They're up so far this month pretty substantially. Will raising my prices change that? I dunno but I did several days ago because I agree that the low price point has become less than a positive in many cases.

I'm not crazy about indie author bashing. It would be nice to see suggestions as suggestions instead of rants about how stupid we all are.


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## terryr (Apr 24, 2010)

GREAT post, Julie.



Krista D. Ball said:


> I'd like to expand on one of Julie's points: Stop marketing to writers*. Stop only following writers on Twitter. Stop only following writer blogs. Stop only going to writer websites. Stop only commenting on writing blogs. Stop only knowing writers on the internet and get out and do something writing-related in your local community. Stop complaining about your 1 star reviews and go write something. Stop whining that I called you names on my blog and go take a writing class. Stop whining that Amazon is out to get you and go distribute in other places.
> 
> Most important thing said on the 'net in months.
> *assuming your book isn't actually meant for writers.


^ And this, well said.


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## scottnicholson (Jan 31, 2010)

There's a box?
What if your sales haven't dropped?


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

The other thing to consider is that by being on other sites, your international customers don't have to pay the $2 additional Amazon charge and who reduce your royalties to 35% on such sales. It mystifies me why authors who are on Apple, Kobo, Sony, smashwords etc etc don't list the links with their books on their blogs. I wonder how many say Australian readers don't buy because of the $2 charge for example. Pointing out the saving and giving them an alternative has to increase sales somewhere along the line.


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

Very good advice! I don't really believe that ads can make a difference, but spot on for all the other bits.


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Great post!


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## D Girard Watson (Apr 4, 2011)

These are all great points.  

I kind of feel like I'm constantly being marketed to by other writers.  Twitter feels like a giant echo box of self-publishing information, so I've sort of stopped following writers.   I feel like this is especially true for blogs.  I much prefer reading a blog in which the author has something interesting to say about a hobby, area of expertise, or even their life.  Too many writer's blogs are imitations of JA Konrath's blog (I'm guilty of this too at times), and it's tiresome and probably not all that interesting to readers.


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

D Girard Watson said:


> These are all great points.
> 
> I kind of feel like I'm constantly being marketed to by other writers. Twitter feels like a giant echo box of self-publishing information, so I've sort of stopped following writers. I feel like this is especially true for blogs. I much prefer reading a blog in which the author has something interesting to say about a hobby, area of expertise, or even their life. Too many writer's blogs are imitations of JA Konrath's blog (I'm guilty of this too at times), and it's tiresome and probably not all that interesting to readers.


I came to the same echo chamber realization a few months ago and I've since stopped following other writers (unless I'm REALLY interested in their work).


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

Great post, Julie. I agree with almost everything! 

I would like to know what 20 sites are available at which to sell books. The ones I know of (and can get into as someone without a minimum of x number of titles to sell):

Amazon (direct)
BN (direct or through SW or BB or Lulu)
Smashwords (direct)
Kobo (through SW or BB)
Diesel (through SW)
Sony (though SW)
Apple (through SW or BB or Lulu)
Scrollmotion (coming soon through SW)
Lulu (direct)

Where else can we list & sell our ebooks?

(BB = Book Brewer)

*Edited to add Lulu - it now has an ebook converter/distribution agreement with Apple and BN.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

kcmay said:


> Where else can we list & sell our ebooks?
> 
> (BB = Book Brewer)


BookBaby is another one, right?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Decon said:


> The other thing to consider is that by being on other sites, your international customers don't have to pay the $2 additional Amazon charge and who reduce your royalties to 35% on such sales. It mystifies me why authors who are on Apple, Kobo, Sony, smashwords etc etc don't list the links with their books on their blogs.


For me, it was a) not knowing at the beginning and then b) getting to busy to do it. I'm in the process of redoing my book list on my blog and I've started to include the other links. I wonder if I should leave a note on each one, letting international people know that Smashwords is their best bet, as they don't charge the extra fee?


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Absolutely agree -- especially about pricing!

I refuse to make any of my books free except for special, limited time or number promotions. Whenever I have made a book free I "sell" tons of copies but for all I know they are sitting on Kindles at #764 in the To-Be-Read-When-I-Get-Around-To-It category. And from the discussions I participate in on Goodreads and Amazon Discussions, I have deduced that to the majority of reader the word "free" translates to "because that's what it is worth".

I have 2 $.99 books which I priced that way because they are very short -- 1 of them is selling like crazy and the other is not. What that says to me is that it is the story, not the price that is attracting people.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

modwitch said:


> A Plan B is good, but the fact is, if you want to sell a lot of copies of your books, there's no channel, or even mix of channels, that can touch amazon right now. Give me a choice between 20 books sold with 50 vendors, and 1,000 books sold with amazon, and I'd take the latter - because 1000 books sold at amazon would give me the visibility and momentum to sell 10,000 more. If I'm selling 20 books with a vendor, I'm handselling them all off my efforts.


I 100% agree with you. I also 100% disagree with you 

For people in a non-American local market, Amazon isn't always the best bet. Sure, hey! Selling to 100,000 Americans is something I don't know anyone who would complain about! I'm just saying for people starting out, they might find Kobo (for Canadians...Chapters gift certificates work there) or Smashwords might work better for them, depending on how they acquire readers.

I've seen several posts on KB talking about how the author is loyal to Amazon (WTF? ) and only sell there. However, Amazon might not be their best distributor. It all depends. That's why I think having your books in several places is a good thing. As a person finds where their niche is, they have a better idea where they should be focused.

i.e. I know one author who sells more books directly at a small SF convention than she does on Amazon for a year. Whereas another, their entire income comes from Amazon and that's it. It really just depends.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

kcmay said:


> Great post, Julie. I agree with almost everything!
> 
> I would like to know what 20 sites are available at which to sell books. The ones I know of (and can get into as someone without a minimum of x number of titles to sell):


I think when Dean Wesley Smith was doing this list, he was also counting the various stores. i.e. The Canadian Apple store and the American apple store would be different.

There is also...oh, I forget the name...there are two that do book lending to libraries. Then there's All Romance.


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Great post. I've been planning to change my pricing and I think I may speed up those plans as a result of your note. Thanks.

One caveat: I'm aware that Project Wonderful has worked for some people, but it doesn't work for others. Obviously, I'm in the latter category or I wouldn't be chiming in. Those who try should do so with the knowledge that sales do not necessarily result from ad buys on PW. I invested a modest amount knowing that I would not make the money back, but hoping that it would generate additional exposure and I would get the attention of a few readers. I don't think it met that criteria. I'm glad I experimented, though. Otherwise I would've wondered. Now I know.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Great post, Julie, and I agree with most of what you've said.

However ...



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *What you've done wrong.*
> You have kept all your eggs in one basket for too long. Your fixation on Amazon sales rank has led you to put all your efforts into generating sales at Amazon at the expense of other outlets. I've always said I would rather sell 50 books a month each on 20 different sites than sell 1,000 books on just Amazon. Spreading out your sales volume reduces your risk, so when sales slow in one location your entire business doesn't crumble.
> 
> *How you can fix it.*
> Get your books up on other sites. Smashwords makes it easy to get your book into wider distribution. Seek out smaller niche retailers that cater to your specific genre. Get your book available in print using a service like Createspace or directly with LSI so that you have print distribution through a variety of retailers outside on Amazon. Then people who learn about your book can shop and the stores they are comfortable with, instead of having to shop where you tell them to.


This sounds great in theory, but how many authors are selling enough books at sites other than Amazon and B&N to make any kind of decent living with those sales? Off the top of my head, I can think of Brian Pratt who sells a lot at Smashwords, but he's the only one I can think of.

The problem with this is that you're not going to find 20 sites where you can sell 50 copies a month, and if you do you're a freak of nature. I doubt any indie authors are doing that. Amazon is almost certainly going to reamin the main game in town (except for people writing in genres that do well at B&N--which seems to be erotica, romance, and maybe fiction aimed at a female audience--don't quote me on that because I might be leaving something out). When we can't sell at Amazon anymore--by far the biggest seller of ebooks--indie publishing will be essentially dead. If that ever happens, I'm dusting off my query letters and playing the traditional game because the best chance you have of making a living as an independent author is to get Amazon selling your books for you. That's why you SHOULD be focusing on Amazon, IMO.

Some people are still selling like crazy at Amazon. Look at KC May selling over 10,000 books a month now at Amazon. I think smart indies will diversify a little, but mainly focus on trying to sell books at Amazon (or B&N in some cases). Because Amazon is the place where you can sell a TON of books without having to promote the heck out of them. Nearly every major indie author success story depended on Amazon--the exceptions being those who have done well at B&N or maybe Smashwords, and many of those are erotica writers.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

For the sake of contrariness 

I don't promote the heck out of my Amazon books* because the bulk of my readers don't own Kindles. They own ipads, Sonys, and Kobos. They need epub format books. So, I tell them where to find their epub-format books.

Like I said earlier, I would not scoff at selling 100k books to Kindle owners. Hail the kindle owners!  It's just that I have a different approach that works well for me and my readers, plus my long-term goals of what is important for my career path. So, I focus on that approach. YMMV depending on your own career path.

*then again, I don't really promote the heck out of any of my books


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## kcmay (Jul 14, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> BookBaby is another one, right?


I believe so, but I know nothing about BookBaby. Someone with experience there is welcome to speak up.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Maybe I need to be clearer.


Not really. I just wanted to argue with someone


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## J.M Pierce (May 13, 2010)

Best post in a very, very long time. Thanks for dishing out the reality check.

J.M.


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## BRONZEAGE (Jun 25, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Not really. I just wanted to argue with someone


Hah! 

It appears a certain percentage of those using Kindle exclusively ( and not print or other e-formats/apps) expect a free ride everywhere: no marketing expense or effort other than on these threads, no editing other than a self-edit or their uncle, instant glowing reviews on the Amazon page, and etc.

Well what endeavor in reality should reasonably be expected to provide a windfall or easy income stream for life, with little effort and expense? We've already seen real estate crash.


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## Joel Arnold (May 3, 2010)

Good post/advice! Thanks.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

A couple of things:

Trying to be reviewed as something other than an indie author is darn near impossible. Many review sites either have separate review lists set up for indies or they're the ones broadcasting the book is self-published. Divorcing yourself from the indie label isn't always possible.

I've been trying to promote my books at B&N to limited success. The beginning of the month was going gangbusters for my new release then sales suddenly stopped. No difference is promo effort. Just stalled.

Smashwords' audience seems to be looking more for free or near-free books. Other than overseas readers, that isn't the audience most of us are trying to cultivate. 

Project Wonderful is good to an extent. It seems to cater to gamers so I can see Julie having really good results with it. Most of the other non-book sites on offer are pretty anemic in number, though, so it's hard to find good target sites to bid on. 

I absolutely agree books should be available in as many venues as possible. And I absolutely agree that most of us need to focus more on reader forums and sites. My main blog is writing/publishing-focused (it started out as a query/synopsis critique site). My second blog is reader-focused and meant to build an audience now for a new release in December. I'm having the same problem in building an audience for that second blog as I am for building an audience for my current books. I'm working on it, but it's a slow slog...

Theory is great. Implementation is where rubber and road meet.


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## Tammie Clarke Gibbs (Dec 30, 2010)

Julie,
This was an awesome Post!  
Great discussion.


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks Julie and the other people who have posted here for all the fantastic advice.

I think it was almost as soon as I had published on Kindle that I realised most of my target audience probably didn't even have Kindles! That's particularly true in the UK where I had thought most of my sales would be. I've been working on ways of distributing in print, although of course that's very much more difficult than distributing electronically. I have unwillingly reached the conclusion (unwillingly because I am not that keen on having to sell things to people face to face) that I will have to use real world interaction such as trying to infiltrate the book group at my local library.

However I am grateful to Amazon and Smashwords for giving me the opportunity to get some novels out there, and I will continue to pursue electronic sales too. The whole epublishing experience has been a huge boost to my self-confidence as a writer.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

kcmay said:


> Where else can we list & sell our ebooks?
> 
> (BB = Book Brewer)


You forgot XinXii, which has a Northern European focus, and OmniLit/AllRomance ebooks, which used to be mainly a romance site, but has now branched out into all genres. Both are very easy to work with. OmniLit/ARe also distributes to the Apple store, iyour own ISBN. I sell a handful of copies at both outlets.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

kcmay said:


> I would like to know what 20 sites are available at which to sell books. The ones I know of (and can get into as someone without a minimum of x number of titles to sell):Scrollmotion (coming soon through SW)
> 
> Where else can we list & sell our ebooks?


There are a lot of small niche eretailers that cater to unique markets, and they often get overlooked because folks want to cast wide nets. For example, my digital rpg products are all sold through RPGNOW.com, which is about 1/50th the size of Amazon but caters exclusively to gamers. I get a huge amount of business there, to the point where I gave them an exclusive contract for my RPGs in exchange for a better rate. But they also have small niche sites live drivethruhorror, drivethrufantasy, and drivethruscifi which cater directly to those target markets, and I get good sales with them.

Mobipocket.com is my primary ebook distributor (also an Amazon company, but operated separately like Createspace). They deal with a lot of small European markets. Some publishers don't use them because they have a high payout minimum ($150) but if you are selling volume that is no big deal.

I believe there are also niche sites that cater exclusively to romance novels and other specific genres.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

>>Go find your own target market.  Visit sites that cater to the type of people who would be interested in your book and start promoting there.<<

That's all very well in theory. In practice however, every one of these sites that I have found will not allow "Self Promotion," so it's catch 22.

Mark


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

To clarify one point regarding the distribution on multiple sites. I never said you had to promote multiple sites. You should only really be promoting ONE site: *Your own.* When I buy advertising, I don't link to my books on Amazon. I link to Bards and Sages. My goal is not to drive traffic to Amazon or BN or whereever. My goal is always to drive traffic TO ME. I want people coming to MY site, signing up for MY mailing list, joining MY FB page. That is how you create long term customers. When they learn about a new book, they go buy the book at their store of choice. I have affiliate links on my site, sure. After all, why not take the income however you can get it. But, when it comes to my marketing I drive all traffic toward ME, and then leave it to the consumer to decide where they shop.

And this is a deeper point about marketing and the dreaded "B" word (Branding.) My marketing is always about drawing people into my site and getting them to come back. Because once I have them, I can sell to them again and again. Someone might join my FB page or newsletter and not buy something for six months...and I'm fine with that. I don't fixate on "OMG! I spent $25 on ads at PW and didn't get any sales!" because I know advertising isn't about sales, but raising awareness of the product.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

modwitch said:


> <tries to decide if she's brave enough to stick her head up and disagree with the Sith Witch...>
> 
> Okay. I am.
> 
> ...


>>I'm not saying relying on amazon is a long-term strategy. But I think it *is* possible to make a serious, businesslike attempt to get the amazon algorithms working on your behalf.<<

Since no-one knows what those algorithms are and they change constantly anyway, I don't see how that's possible.

Mark


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Alondo said:


> >>Go find your own target market. Visit sites that cater to the type of people who would be interested in your book and start promoting there.<<
> 
> That's all very well in theory. In practice however, every one of these sites that I have found will not allow "Self Promotion," so it's catch 22.
> 
> Mark


I visit a couple hundred blogs regularly; the majority not having anything to do with writing or publishing. I never say "buy my books" when I reply to those blogs. Yet, my website always gets a little spike when I involve myself in these discussions (i.e. the best way to prepare tofu casserole for someone's teenaged son's girlfriend who is coming over for supper and is a vegetarian). And, I see these people on Facebook and Twitter recommending my titles to their friends and coworkers. And I have never said I'm a writer, or buy my books on their blogs.

I attend local conventions and do panel discussions. I don't spend the panels talking about my books and why people should buy them. I talk about the topic at hand. People come up to me and ask me questions about writing and publishing. I answer them. I get sales afterwards. I never tell them to go buy my book.

I can keep going. No one likes to hear "buy my book". People do, however, like to be heard. So, I listen to what those folks are saying and talk with them about their questions and stories. That's what Julie means.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

Alondo said:


> >>Go find your own target market. Visit sites that cater to the type of people who would be interested in your book and start promoting there.<<
> 
> That's all very well in theory. In practice however, every one of these sites that I have found will not allow "Self Promotion," so it's catch 22.


Almost all of them, however, DO allow advertising, so open your wallet. Support those sites that support your genres. Because you want those sites to continue so readers have a place to go and learn about books in your genre.

And you can also engage in public relations even when not actively promoting. Being an active, helpful member of a forum has more value than drive by "Buy my book" posts. That is true in any forum (KB included). I very rarely buy a book based off of a promotion thread. But I have bought a lot of books because the member was interesting, insightful, and presented himself/herself in a way that gave me confidence in their ability to tell a good story.

And then of course there is the book I bought because it had a bunny with a chainsaw on the cover, but that is another story  

Think of a forum like JFK wanted us to think about patriotism: Ask not how many books a forum can sell for you. Ask what you can do for the forum.  Become a leader. Demonstrate your expertise in your field. Be the person that people look for for answers.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Think of a forum like JFK wanted us to think about patriotism: Ask not how many books a forum can sell for you. Ask what you can do for the forum.  Become a leader. Demonstrate your expertise in your field. Be the person that people look for for answers.


That smacks of effort. I'll go read John Locke's marketing book instead.


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## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

While in many respects it may seem like we just gather here to commiserate (and you can certainly waste a LOT of time on that to no good effect), for those who are sharing their experiences, what worked/didn't work, or making logical arguments, all that information can be very helpful IF we think it through and move forward. 

I was just talking to another KBer about one venue I'd used to promote in and how it's no longer yielding results. Lesson learned. Time to regroup. Come up with a new plan. More options. I can come here and learn something from others, hopefully saving myself loads of time. Unfortunately, what may have worked for one author a year ago, might not work at all anymore.

There is so much in flux right now. And there's no one way to guarantee sales. Just keep writing. Keep an eye on what's happening in e-publishing. And keep your options open.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

D Girard Watson said:


> These are all great points.
> 
> I kind of feel like I'm constantly being marketed to by other writers. Twitter feels like a giant echo box of self-publishing information, so I've sort of stopped following writers. I feel like this is especially true for blogs. I much prefer reading a blog in which the author has something interesting to say about a hobby, area of expertise, or even their life. Too many writer's blogs are imitations of JA Konrath's blog (I'm guilty of this too at times), and it's tiresome and probably not all that interesting to readers.


No, it isn't an "echo box of self-publishing information". There are millions of Twitter users who care nothing about self-publishing.

The difference is that you have to go looking for them.

Have you done twitter searches for people who follow other authors and are not writers, for example? Have you searched for people who say in their profiles that they are *readers*, particularly readers of your genre or are interested in a subject related to your genre?

It isn't fast and it isn't easy, but it is possible. The number of people on my twitter list who are interested in history and/or Scotland is very large. I work at it all the time. It hasn't been fast, but it is getting there.

And one of the things I've done is add my twitter handle to the front matter of my novels. I can't say it's gotten me many followers but that is a work in progress.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> While in many respects it may seem like we just gather here to commiserate (and you can certainly waste a LOT of time on that to no good effect), for those who are sharing their experiences, what worked/didn't work, or making logical arguments, all that information can be very helpful IF we think it through and move forward.
> 
> I was just talking to another KBer about one venue I'd used to promote in and how it's no longer yielding results. Lesson learned. Time to regroup. Come up with a new plan. More options. I can come here and learn something from others, hopefully saving myself loads of time. Unfortunately, what may have worked for one author a year ago, might not work at all anymore.
> 
> There is so much in flux right now. And there's no one way to guarantee sales. Just keep writing. Keep an eye on what's happening in e-publishing. And keep your options open.


Gemi, this is an excellent point. The entire industry is in flux and things are changing at near light speed or so it seems.

The 99 cent price point was working great a year ago. _Now_, it may not work well or not work for most of us. Is $2.99 still a great price point or do we need to consider that? Are click throughs from GR dropping? Are we using twitter to the best effect?

I post at on a lot of blogs and intend to continue, but it is time consuming. Is that my best strategy or should revise it? Maybe I should concentrate more on buying ads on blogs, especially the HF related ones. At least it may be worth thinking about.

We have to constantly watch to be ready to make changes as the industry changes--or that's my theory any way.

Sure some of us come here to whine, but it is where other people understand what we're whining ABOUT. That hardly means it is ALL we do, as I know you agree.


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## GlennGamble (Sep 15, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'd like to expand on one of Julie's points: Stop marketing to writers*. Stop only following writers on Twitter. Stop only following writer blogs. Stop only going to writer websites. Stop only commenting on writing blogs. Stop only knowing writers on the internet and get out and do something writing-related in your local community. Stop complaining about your 1 star reviews and go write something. Stop whining that I called you names on my blog and go take a writing class. Stop whining that Amazon is out to get you and go distribute in other places.


Most important thing said on the 'net in months.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> The number of people on my twitter list who are interested in history and/or Scotland is very large. I work at it all the time. It hasn't been fast, but it is getting there.


QFT.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

modwitch said:


> 2) A Plan B is good, but the fact is, if you want to sell a lot of copies of your books, there's no channel, or even mix of channels, that can touch amazon right now. Give me a choice between 20 books sold with 50 vendors, and 1,000 books sold with amazon, and I'd take the latter - because 1000 books sold at amazon would give me the visibility and momentum to sell 10,000 more. If I'm selling 20 books with a vendor, I'm handselling them all off my efforts.


This is where I'm hung up too. Hand-selling is the last thing I want to be doing right now. Every second I spend promoting an existing novel is a second I could spend composing a new one. Right now the Amazon algorithms let me skirt by with a minimal amount of promotional effort. Folks find me on Amazon, read the novel if they are interested, visit my website if they enjoyed it, and add themselves to the Facebook group / newsletter if they want to read some more. In the meanwhile, I'm working on the next one, which is what my readership is asking for.

I realize I could be putting more efforts into diversifying, I realize I could be spending additional money on advertising, but I've yet to see any other conduit that can deliver ANY bang for a buck, and I've yet to see a paid for promotional campaign that is working. I recognize that if Amazon changes their game plan, I'll have to make some new moves as well. However, until that happens (and I recognize that it will) I'll let Amazon keep creating the free buzz, while I keep pumping out new novels.

B.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I visit a couple hundred blogs regularly; the majority not having anything to do with writing or publishing. I never say "buy my books" when I reply to those blogs. Yet, my website always gets a little spike when I involve myself in these discussions (i.e. the best way to prepare tofu casserole for someone's teenaged son's girlfriend who is coming over for supper and is a vegetarian). And, I see these people on Facebook and Twitter recommending my titles to their friends and coworkers. And I have never said I'm a writer, or buy my books on their blogs.
> 
> I attend local conventions and do panel discussions. I don't spend the panels talking about my books and why people should buy them. I talk about the topic at hand. People come up to me and ask me questions about writing and publishing. I answer them. I get sales afterwards. I never tell them to go buy my book.
> 
> I can keep going. No one likes to hear "buy my book". People do, however, like to be heard. So, I listen to what those folks are saying and talk with them about their questions and stories. That's what Julie means.


Sorry, it seems I didn't make myself clear. When I've tried posting on blogs, I have never said "buy my book" or anything like that. I try to contribute to the discussion. However, simply quoting my website address is generally enough to get my post labelled as spam, so I've virtually given up on that option.

Maybe you live in a different universe - a universe of bunny rabbits and unicorns where every blog site is full of happy, welcoming readers! For me, the reality has been somewhat different.

I don't know how you manage to "regularly visit" 200 Blogs. You must not sleep!

Mark


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Alondo said:


> Sorry, it seems I didn't make myself clear. When I've tried posting on blogs, I have never said "buy my book" or anything like that. I try to contribute to the discussion. However, simply quoting my website address is generally enough to get my post labelled as spam, so I've virtually given up on that option.
> 
> Maybe you live in a different universe - a universe of bunny rabbits and unicorns where every blog site is full of happy, welcoming readers! For me, the reality has been somewhat different.
> 
> ...


On most blogs, you can post through your Google/Facebook/etc account which links back. You don't have to quote your website address.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I have the blogs running through Google reader and some to my email. When I find posts I like, I pop open the sites and read/comment. I read and comment on my bus ride to work (~50 minutes each way, 3x a week). I can't read books while riding, so the blogs give me a chance to read something shorter and comment without getting motion sick.

I never include my web address in my comment. *never* I think it looks slimy. All I do is put my website address into the website address field in the comment form. If people want to click on my name, they get rerouted to my blog. Otherwise, they just get to enjoy my comments and discussion. That's also how I find more blogs to follow. I click on the name of the interesting person posting and go to their blog, and follow. 

ETA: cross post with JRTomlin


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Almost all of them, however, DO allow advertising, so open your wallet. Support those sites that support your genres. Because you want those sites to continue so readers have a place to go and learn about books in your genre.
> 
> And you can also engage in public relations even when not actively promoting. Being an active, helpful member of a forum has more value than drive by "Buy my book" posts. That is true in any forum (KB included). I very rarely buy a book based off of a promotion thread. But I have bought a lot of books because the member was interesting, insightful, and presented himself/herself in a way that gave me confidence in their ability to tell a good story.
> 
> ...


Why do people keep suggesting I post "buy my book" I never said that and I dont.

I am not against paid advertising, but KDB said they visited 200 sites. Where do you start?

How much do you spend in advertising a month (if it's not a rude question)?

Mark


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> No, it isn't an "echo box of self-publishing information". There are millions of Twitter users who care nothing about self-publishing.
> 
> The difference is that you have to go looking for them.
> 
> ...


I barely understand how to post on twitter.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I totally agree on branding. I think where we differ is this. I use branding, my site, my reader contacts on the *back* end - after someone has read one of my books. I use amazon as my marketing engine. I do things that get me visible in their algorithms (easier said than done, I get that). It gets me a *lot* of readers. Then I send them to my site and collect them, so that the next book release, it matters a bit less whether I'm visible on amazon or not.
> 
> So I use amazon to raise awareness, and my site and branding as part of long-term relationship building with my customers. My site isn't well set up to sell a book to a stranger at all - because that's not what I need it for.
> 
> ...


Well, that made no sense to me whatsoever (and I read it three times!).


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> This is where I'm hung up too. Hand-selling is the last thing I want to be doing right now. Every second I spend promoting an existing novel is a second I could spend composing a new one. Right now the Amazon algorithms let me skirt by with a minimal amount of promotional effort. Folks find me on Amazon, read the novel if they are interested, visit my website if they enjoyed it, and add themselves to the Facebook group / newsletter if they want to read some more. In the meanwhile, I'm working on the next one, which is what my readership is asking for.
> 
> I realize I could be putting more efforts into diversifying, I realize I could be spending additional money on advertising, but I've yet to see any other conduit that can deliver ANY bang for a buck, and I've yet to see a paid for promotional campaign that is working. I recognize that if Amazon changes their game plan, I'll have to make some new moves as well. However, until that happens (and I recognize that it will) I'll let Amazon keep creating the free buzz, while I keep pumping out new novels.


I'm in the same boat. My advertising efforts did nothing but leave me poorer than when I started. When I started doing this eighteen months ago, you didn't need $#@! degrees in marketing and sales to achieve modest success. (Not that I found any, but, still.) You didn't need a loyal audience of fawning readers to sell to. Markets other than Amazon were irrelevant, because Amazon had the lion's share _of_ the market.

I don't want to spend five hours a day exploiting social networking. I don't want to spend three hours a day trying to find "my readers", whomever they might be. I don't want to spend two hours a day marketing my dead backlist. I just want to write.

Well, I just _wanted_ to write. Now I'm not even sure about that.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> On most blogs, you can post through your Google/Facebook/etc account which links back. You don't have to quote your website address.


I didn't know that. Of course they also present a lot of time consuming hoops for you to jump through. Register first...incorrect password...key in these oddly shaped letters...wrong, try again...I could have been working on my next book...give up.

I guess patience is not my strong suit.


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## D Girard Watson (Apr 4, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> No, it isn't an "echo box of self-publishing information". There are millions of Twitter users who care nothing about self-publishing.
> 
> The difference is that you have to go looking for them.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood me. When I first got on twitter, I made the mistake of following indie writers who I like to read and my twitter stream turned into an echobox of self-promotion and self-publishing information. I stopped following those people and now follow people who match my interests (or who are interesting). ...so yeah, I totally agree with you, it is possible to reach out to people and get something out of twitter. I just think many self-published folks aren't using twitter in an interesting way.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Gemi, this is an excellent point. The entire industry is in flux and things are changing at near light speed or so it seems.
> 
> The 99 cent price point was working great a year ago. _Now_, it may not work well or not work for most of us. Is $2.99 still a great price point or do we need to consider that? Are click throughs from GR dropping? Are we using twitter to the best effect?
> 
> ...


Why oh why do people always have to use technical abbrevations. I mean, what's HF mean? Hairy foot


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

George Berger said:


> I'm in the same boat. My advertising efforts did nothing but leave me poorer than when I started. When I started doing this eighteen months ago, you didn't need $#@! degrees in marketing and sales to achieve modest success. (Not that I found any, but, still.) You didn't need a loyal audience of fawning readers to sell to. Markets other than Amazon were irrelevant, because Amazon had the lion's share _of_ the market.
> 
> I don't want to spend five hours a day exploiting social networking. I don't want to spend three hours a day trying to find "my readers", whomever they might be. I don't want to spend two hours a day marketing my dead backlist. I just want to write.
> 
> Well, I just _wanted_ to write. Now I'm not even sure about that.


You ever tried sending out three hundred agent queries after checking all three hundred websites to be sure you follow their individual guidelines? And then tracking the results. And sending out the partials, no two of which are alike in their requirements. And tracking those. And then fulls when a few agents ask for those. And then figuring out contracts. And ask Joe Konrath when he was with a major publisher how many hours he spent travelling to and working signings.

I would love to live in some age when all writers do is write.

Never has happened. Never will happen.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bottom line, folks: do what works for your personality. If you are a total reclusive, then just write books. Don't do anything else. Also don't complain about your sales.

If you don't want to handle the business end of things, there is an entire industry out there for you. It's called publishing. Go get a publisher to handle the business side, so that you can be left to write and market.

If you don't like twitter, don't do it. If you are computer illiterate, concentrate on doing things in person in your local writing and reading community.

If you don't like to blog, don't have one.

If you don't like ads, don't get one.

Social media works well for me. I have a snarky personality and can come up with a good quip here and there in under 140 characters. That does not mean it will work for everyone and nor should it. What really works for me is getting involved in my local writing community. I can't do a lot, but I do attend fan conventions and events. I plan to do a bit more with my local library in the new year.

I wish I had published Harvest Moon and sold 100k copies last year. I did, however, gain a lot. My goals aren't sales related, so I feel like I've accomplished a lot. Three publishing contracts this year for novels. Speaking requests on panels. Self-publishing a few things. Starting my writer's blog. Increased overall word count. None of that was achieved by marketing. It was achieved by plain, old, boring slogging away piece by piece.

I'm inpatient and I want to see things done now. Writing has really taught me I can't be like that. I need to set a target in the future and work towards it in tiny steps.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I have the blogs running through Google reader and some to my email. When I find posts I like, I pop open the sites and read/comment. I read and comment on my bus ride to work (~50 minutes each way, 3x a week). I can't read books while riding, so the blogs give me a chance to read something shorter and comment without getting motion sick.
> 
> I never include my web address in my comment. *never* I think it looks slimy. All I do is put my website address into the website address field in the comment form. If people want to click on my name, they get rerouted to my blog. Otherwise, they just get to enjoy my comments and discussion. That's also how I find more blogs to follow. I click on the name of the interesting person posting and go to their blog, and follow.
> 
> ETA: cross post with JRTomlin


What's "Google Reader?"

Most of the blogs I've tried don't have a website address field. You just post a comment, try in vain to copy some inane scribble to prove you're not a machine and that's it. Or not.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And ask Joe Konrath when he was with a major publisher how many hours he spent travelling to and working signings.


To be fair, Joe did a lot more than most mid-list writers do for self-promotion. He choose to do the bulk of that travelling. I believe he's done posts saying writers should do 4 hours of marketing a day. Then you have other successful writers like Dean and Kristine who do no more than they ever have, except a few extra blog posts, and are also both doing very well while self-publishing and doing all kinds of work with publishers (incl. books and magazines).


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

D Girard Watson said:


> I think you misunderstood me. When I first got on twitter, I made the mistake of following indie writers who I like to read and my twitter stream turned into an echobox of self-promotion and self-publishing information. I stopped following those people and now follow people who match my interests (or who are interesting). ...so yeah, I totally agree with you, it is possible to reach out to people and get something out of twitter. I just think many self-published folks aren't using twitter in an interesting way.


Sorry. I did misunderstand you.

I still follow a lot of writers and we'll occasionally chat or post about writing, but I'm a whole lot more likely to tweet about Scottish politics. Annoys some of my US followers, but I also think they are surprised to discover that there ARE Scottish politics. 

Or I tweet links to interesting blog posts or reviews or something about marriage equity. My tweets rarely have to do with my writing although once a day I will tweet a link to a sample too. So you can use it for that as well.

Twitter can be in interesting tool that you can use in a variety of ways.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Alondo said:


> What's "Google Reader?"


Google reader is a site where I put in the web addresses of the blogs I want to follow and then I can look at every day to see which ones have new posts. I can read the blog without going to the site

Look, take your time. Figure out one thing. Once you have the hang of it, move to another thing. That way, you don't end up in a puddle in the corner bemoaning the devil internet


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

Alondo said:


> How much do you spend in advertising a month (if it's not a rude question)?


I spend about $50 a month on "maintenence" advertising, which is essentially banners and such on a handful of sites that target my readership. This is designed to simply keep my name fresh in the minds of those readers so they remember me when it comes time to do a launch.

For a book launch, I can spend upwards of $500, but I also do some print advertising in genre publications. I'll probably drop a grand or so when I relaunch the Neiyar campaign setting next year.

This doesn't include expenditures for holiday promotions or misc. marketing costs, like books for reviewers or contest prizes.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

George Berger said:


> I'm in the same boat. My advertising efforts did nothing but leave me poorer than when I started. When I started doing this eighteen months ago, you didn't need $#@! degrees in marketing and sales to achieve modest success. (Not that I found any, but, still.) You didn't need a loyal audience of fawning readers to sell to. Markets other than Amazon were irrelevant, because Amazon had the lion's share _of_ the market.
> 
> I don't want to spend five hours a day exploiting social networking. I don't want to spend three hours a day trying to find "my readers", whomever they might be. I don't want to spend two hours a day marketing my dead backlist. I just want to write.
> 
> Well, I just _wanted_ to write. Now I'm not even sure about that.


I hear you. Writing's all I ever wanted to do, but I fear I'm getting caught up on the marketing/social networking bandwagon, so while my sales have climbed slightly, my writing's slowed to a crawl. I want to be a writer, not a marketing exec., so when people talk about spending hours on this stuff, it goes against the grain. I enjoy connecting with readers, but it's the time it takes that I resent. That and the fact that not understanding most of the technology behind it makes me feel like an idiot.

Mark


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> To be fair, Joe did a lot more than most mid-list writers do for self-promotion. He choose to do the bulk of that travelling. I believe he's done posts saying writers should do 4 hours of marketing a day. Then you have other successful writers like Dean and Kristine who do no more than they ever have, except a few extra blog posts, and are also both doing very well while self-publishing and doing all kinds of work with publishers (incl. books and magazines).


My point was really that there has never been some mystical time when all successful writers' (that is ones who made money at it) did was write. Chaucer had to suck up to the nobility.

Yes, Joe chose to do that travelling, but he was choosing to do promotion. Dean attends conventions and has for years and open and ran a publishing company.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

/off topic

Julie, you're relaunching Neiyar??!?!?!?!? Sweet!

/end off topic


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Hmm.  I'm seeing a huge developing market for indie marketers, who market for the indie authors, so the indie authors don't have to!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> My point was really that there has never been some mystical time when all successful writers' (that is ones who made money at it) did was write. Chaucer had to suck up to the nobility.
> 
> Yes, Joe chose to do that travelling, but he was choosing to do promotion. Dean attends conventions and has for years and open and ran a publishing company.


My point is that we don't need to do what others are doing, however. Asking people who have no technical skills whatsoever to do social media isn't helpful. Telling people to travel 2 weeks out of every 4 when they have small children isn't helpful. That's what the advice on the internet is in general: easy to take well out of context and people get frustrated.

I attend conventions because they are a hoot. I love readercons and SF/F cons. They work for me because *I love them*. Even if I wasn't a writer, I'd still go.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Google reader is a site where I put in the web addresses of the blogs I want to follow and then I can look at every day to see which ones have new posts. I can read the blog without going to the site
> 
> Look, take your time. Figure out one thing. Once you have the hang of it, move to another thing. That way, you don't end up in a puddle in the corner bemoaning the devil internet


Thanks for that, I can see where that might be useful. I'll give it a try. It's hard to be positive though, when you feel you can't even find your way out of the puddle!

Mark


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

> What you've done wrong.
> You have depended too much on Amazon to find customers for you. Too many authors are 100% dependent on Amazon to do the heavy lifting. Your sales depend on Amazon algorithms in order for Amazon's customers to find you, instead of you going out and finding your own customers.


I've been beating the drum on this for a while now. Nice work on this post, Julie.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> My point is that we don't need to do what others are doing, however. Asking people who have no technical skills whatsoever to do social media isn't helpful. Telling people to travel 2 weeks out of every 4 when they have small children isn't helpful. That's what the advice on the internet is in general: easy to take well out of context and people get frustrated.
> 
> I attend conventions because they are a hoot. I love readercons and SF/F cons. They work for me because *I love them*. Even if I wasn't a writer, I'd still go.


When did I tell anyone to travel and using Twitter hardly takes high level technical skills. I'm a bit of a technophobe and even I can use it. (Nor do I advise sucking up to the nobility as Chaucer did)

My POINT is that if you want to get sales, you almost certainly have to put some work into it.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Kent Kelly said:


> Hmm. I'm seeing a huge developing market for indie marketers, who market for the indie authors, so the indie authors don't have to!


I've been saying that for ages. If you find one I've got lots of interested clients for him/her.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> /off topic
> 
> *****, you're relaunching Neiyar??!?!?!?!? Sweet!


I'm negotiating with an artist now and will start rewriting at the end of the year. That's why there haven't been any new supplements recently. It will be a glorious reign of chaos and anarchy.  We're moving the timeline up and unleashing the Fourth Demon Plague and an all out civil war. Dragons are returning to the island. Snake like humanoids are coming out of the pyramid. The Dragonclaws are resettling Dazu. We'll also be selling a license to create games for other systems using the setting.

Problem has always been that I kept getting requests for a Pathfinder/Rifts/BESM/4E/or some other fill-in-the-blank game system. No way I can adequately write a separate book for each setting, so I'm going to make the reboot system-neutral and allow third-party publishers to use it for whatever game systems they want.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm negotiating with an artist now and will start rewriting at the end of the year. That's why there haven't been any new supplements recently. It will be a glorious reign of chaos and anarchy.  We're moving the timeline up and unleashing the Fourth Demon Plague and an all out civil war. Dragons are returning to the island. Snake like humanoids are coming out of the pyramid. The Dragonclaws are resettling Dazu. We'll also be selling a license to create games for other systems using the setting.
> 
> Problem has always been that I kept getting requests for a Pathfinder/Rifts/BESM/4E/or some other fill-in-the-blank game system. No way I can adequately write a separate book for each setting, so I'm going to make the reboot system-neutral and allow third-party publishers to use it for whatever game systems they want.


Aww, sweet.

I'm trying to ease the kids into playing Karma. We're playing Descent (the board game) right now to teach them how not to be jerks to each other and work together. Then, once that impossible task is overcome, we're going to do a Revelations campaign in Karma. Since I co-edited it, I figure it'll be easier to get the kids into it. And they are liking the idea of it being different than the usual dragons.

(At this point, everyone is staring at me and thinking WTF is she talking about. God, I love being a geek).


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I spend about $50 a month on "maintenence" advertising, which is essentially banners and such on a handful of sites that target my readership. This is designed to simply keep my name fresh in the minds of those readers so they remember me when it comes time to do a launch.
> 
> For a book launch, I can spend upwards of $500, but I also do some print advertising in genre publications. I'll probably drop a grand or so when I relaunch the Neiyar campaign setting next year.
> 
> This doesn't include expenditures for holiday promotions or misc. marketing costs, like books for reviewers or contest prizes.


What you're now seeing is me lying flat on the on the floor while I try and recover from the shock.

You must've found the fairy crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. Or maybe your address is a bank vault, somewhere?

The core message seems to be that however good a writer you are, you need a ton of money to get anywhere. Thanks for the heads up. I'll go back to my beans on toast and my ten year old computer now.

Mark


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

Alondo said:


> The core message seems to be that however good a writer you are, you need a ton of money to get anywhere. Thanks for the heads up. I'll go back to my beans on toast and my ten year old computer now.


Welcome to the real world.

As a writer, you need NO MONEY.

As a publisher, you need to invest in your business.

Publishing is not a charity. It is a business. If you just want to write, then don't self-publish and instead seek out publishers. There are thousands of them outside of NYC. Submit your work to small and niche presses and look for a publisher. Then you don't have to spend a dime.

But self-publishing is publishing, and publishing is a business and businesses require capital. You have to invest in your business. That means hiring artists and proofreaders and editors and spending money to promote. It is HARD. It is also rewarding, but make no mistake it is hard work.

And believe me, I can afford to spend that money because I make that back. My business plan is designed so that I recover my expenses on a project in 90 days. I constantly turn my money over so it can be reinvested on the next project. I'm not flushing it down the toilet and not getting results.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"There have been a lot of threads lately about sales dropping, and many of them are pointing the finger at Amazon. It isn't Amazon's fault."_

There are upward and downward pressures on sales. It's wise to recognize and understand how they all work. Amazon can do things that create both. So can authors.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> That smacks of effort. I'll go read John Locke's marketing book instead.


Actually, this is what John Locke's marketing book promotes -- effort.

He tells you to get involved with readers on Twitter (he calls his loyal readers OOU, i.e., One Of Us), talk about _their_ interests, not about your own. And especially, don't talk about your books. And once in a blue moon, make a blog post that you know will resonate with your OOU folks (and has a connection to whichever book you want to promote), and let your twitter followers know you've made a new post. And let them take it from there.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> The entire industry is in flux and things are changing at near light speed or so it seems.


True. And I don't think we have an inkling yet about what awaits us over the technology horizon...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Tommie Lyn said:


> Actually, this is what John Locke's marketing book promotes -- effort.


I read the John Locke book. I took a shower afterwards


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## MJWare (Jun 25, 2010)

Julie,
I agree with everything, except the generalization about whining. But I *can* understand your point; I just call it a little venting.

Also when you say:
"What you've done wrong.
You have depended too much on Amazon to find customers for you. Too many authors are 100% dependent on Amazon to do the heavy lifting. Your sales depend on Amazon algorithms in order for Amazon's customers to find you, instead of you going out and finding your own customers."

I've been trying to do this. Obviously, I need to do a better job, or get off this train. My choice.

Great post. I'm getting off the boards for a while (put that [email protected] fork in me I'm done =-) and then I'll come back and refocus.

Anyone else feel like we should start calling Julie Mom--delivering love with a big dose of reality?_ The love is the hour or so she took from running her publishing house to write and edit this post!_

THANKS!


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Kent Kelly said:


> Hmm. I'm seeing a huge developing market for indie marketers, who market for the indie authors, so the indie authors don't have to!


Unfortunately marketing pays very, very well as it brings in money. Unless someone has automated the marketing process (which I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, it's like those annoying twitter accounts that just post quotes and sales links...) then you probably can't afford to hire them!


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## alextaylorwolfe (Sep 19, 2011)

I find the OP enlightening and, yes, a shot in the arm to get out there and market and diversify. But I take some issue in the $.99 listing price.

As a brand new published author, of course I'm interested in the money side of things, but what about readership? What about getting people to read my book? This is my first novel and I have more on the near horizon. But none of those on the horizon will do me any good if no one ever reads this first one (or the second, or third, etc...). So I see the $.99 listing price on this first novel as a 'loss leader' as some might call it. No, I'm not truly taking a loss on it, but if I can get that 1 more person (or 10 or 100) to say to themselves: "Self, $.99 aint bad for a historical romance novel." and then they click the 'buy now' button - then that is 1 or 10 or hundred(s) of people who will have read my story and will then be interested in my next one, because, really, who _wouldn't_ be interested in more after reading the first one? : ] (and check out how long that last sentence was)! *Wo!*

So, I guess I might be able to go along with the $2.99+ price concept, _after _I get some form of readership backing me up. But until then, as I continue to work on more of my stories, I want readers more than I want money. So I'll stick with the $.99 listing price and take a chance that it will bring in more people than it will to scare them off for thinking maybe it's 'just another indie author self-publishing'.

Then, perhaps, I'll re-evaluate and re-work my pricing structure.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2011)

alextaylorwolfe said:


> I find the OP enlightening and, yes, a shot in the arm to get out there and market and diversify. But I take some issue in the $.99 listing price.
> 
> As a brand new published author,


How many of the following names do you recognize?

Barbara Ehrenreich
S.M. Stirling
Paula McLain
Kathy Reichs
Chad Harbach
Christine Feehan
Martin J. Sherwin
Michael Shaara

One? Two? Four? They are all bestselling authors in their fields, and yet most people wouldn't recognize their names, or would have to think real hard about it to remember where they saw it before. ALL AUTHORS are unknown to a portion of the population. The point is to go make yourself known to the people you want to know you. Get this "I'm unknown" thought process out of your head. WE'RE ALL UNKNOWN TO SOMEONE! ***** Ann ***** sure as heck is not a household name, but I don't need to be because I've built my own following.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> How many of the following names do you recognize?
> 
> Barbara Ehrenreich
> S.M. Stirling
> ...


One for me 

This is the point I've been trying to make all along. If you were with a publisher, the publisher wouldn't lowball the price of your first book because you were unknown. So, why do people think they have to do this when they self-publish?


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Welcome to the real world.
> 
> As a writer, you need NO MONEY.
> 
> ...


Oh, I've spent a heck of a lot of money, but very little of it has come back. Artists? Done it. Proof readers and editors? Check. Professional trailer? Got it. Business Plan? Uh wouldn't know were to start. I have worked many, many hours at promoting, so believe me, I know all about hard work. You just have to know what works and what doesn't I guess. Sounds as if you have a flair for that kind of stuff. I don't seem to. Gotta start somewhere. Try something. Doesn't work. Move on.

You mentioned about going the traditional publishing route, but I figured that was just a joke.

Maybe one day I'll discover what I'm supposed to do to get results.

Mark


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Mark - I've seen you post your sales numbers. You are selling. That's a good thing. There are people who self-publish who never sell more than a dozen books. 

Sometimes, the focus on selling can make a person spin their wheels. Like I said, pick something you want to try. Work on that for a while. You have years to try everything. Don't do it all this week. You'll just burn out.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Mark - I've seen you post your sales numbers. You are selling. That's a good thing. There are people who self-publish who never sell more than a dozen books.
> 
> Sometimes, the focus on selling can make a person spin their wheels. Like I said, pick something you want to try. Work on that for a while. You have years to try everything. Don't do it all this week. You'll just burn out.


Actually that's the best advice I've had, Krista. I have record sales this month so far - 26!!! I just look at all the hours I've put into promoting and the results don't seem to justify all the extra work and time. I think I need to scale back, try one or two things and just concentrate on the writing.

Mark


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## LCEvans (Mar 29, 2009)

Very well said, Julie. Thank you. Your advice is especially meaningful for me now since I don't have as much online time as I used to. I have to make every minute of promotion time count, and this means planning ahead and being more selective.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Alondo said:


> You mentioned about going the traditional publishing route, but I figured that was just a joke.


Why would that be a joke?

Look, a lot of writers come to the decision to self-publish because they don't feel that traditional publishing is an option for them. Maybe they've gotten too many rejections for reasons of marketability or quality, or they hate the idea of not being in total control of their work, or they've simply realized that, many times, there is more potential to earn real money by self-publishing. Whatever the reason, too many of those authors fail to realize that self-publishing really, truly means _becoming a publisher_. Sure, you may just be publishing your own books, but _you are publishing books_.

How many publishers have managed to successfully produce and market a book without spending any time or money to do so? Very few, if any, I'd say. Well, what makes self-published authors so different?

I'm honestly not sure why the suggestion to find a publisher would be taken as a "joke". Perhaps you're just making a self-deprecating remark, because you don't think your work would be accepted. And maybe it wouldn't, I don't know. But for those authors who are weary of doing the work of a publisher, it is a legitimate option. In fact, it's probably the best option. Despite what many will tell you about how authors are forced to do just as much promotion when they're traditionally published due to dwindling marketing budgets, it's honestly not true. I do very little self-promotion for my trade published novels. I have a Yahoo group and Facebook page, and I contribute to short story anthologies to get my work noticed. Sometimes I post free stories online on websites which cater to my target audience. But that's it. I'm certainly not spending any of my own money on marketing, and the vast majority of my time still goes to writing. And I'm positive that I outsell most self-published authors.

That said, I do plan on self-publishing as well. I like the idea of diversifying, and I also feel well-prepared to take on the challenge of acting as my own publisher. We'll see how it goes. It will certainly be a vastly different experience than being traditionally published. Yes, I'll have more control, yes, I'll get a bigger profit from each sale. But, yes, I'll have to work a lot harder to get my book noticed because I will lose all the (very effective) marketing that my current publisher does for my books. I'll also have to pay for things like cover design and editing, which I've never done before.

I think one of the biggest mistakes writers make is to assume that a love of writing naturally leads to publishing. I don't believe that's true. Publishing has its pitfalls, no matter how you go about it. It's hard work. It requires a thick skin. But luckily, _publishing has very little to do with writing_. It's sort of a separate endeavor. Some writers are suited to it. Some aren't. Most of us want it though, don't we? 

If you love writing but don't have the time, money, or desire to publish and sell your own work (with everything that entails), self-publishing is not for you. If you love writing but don't want to give up control over your work, meet deadlines, or be edited, traditional publishing is not for you.

I have a writer friend who is tremendously talented. Her first novel was published by a small publisher, won several awards, and made a splash in her genre. That was seven years ago. She still hasn't published another book. I believe publishing took the fun out of writing for her. She's decided that it really isn't her thing. She still writes, though. Because one has nothing to do with the other.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm wid ya, Flan. I've got one literary agent peddling one of my books to major publishers and I have an offer on the table from another literary agent to peddle another book of mine. Meanwhile, I continue to self-pub. Diversification is my middle name, largely because I don't wish to put a lot of time and energy into marketing.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Mark, with a trilogy out (is the series done?) and strong reviews, I'd consider a LibraryThing giveaway (and give away 300+ books) or making the first book in the trilogy free (while raising the price of the other two to $3.99). My two cents, anyhow. If the series isn't done, when will book four make an appearance?


If I recall, isn't this the best method when there are 3 books total out? Or, is it 5? I remember it being an odd number but I can't remember which.


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## Theresa M Moore (Nov 19, 2010)

I have been struggling to get people to raise their ebook prices, not lower them. I have had an ongoing battle with people who seem to think that pricing their ebooks at 99 cents will get them sales. It will. But the author will have to sell way more ebooks to make the same kind of money they could get if they price the ebooks higher. Some do not understand the math, no matter how you explain it. My sales have dropped because of numerous technical changes which caused me to lose sales, not because my ebooks were no good. I had been going along earning a chunk of change until Amazon chose to change its sales algorithm in August, and there have been instances of the KDP reporting subroutine going down. This has nothing to do with whether I am self-published or not. There is simply no telling what happens on Amazon anymore.

This is why I don't rely on Amazon or any outside retailer for sales. Instead, I choose to concentrate my marketing on driving traffic to my own site. The other retailers can do what they want; I'll just keep on keeping on. If I get sales through them, good. But I refuse to stand there waiting. They say a watched pot never comes to a boil, so I've stopped watching them fail to sell books and ebooks.


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## alextaylorwolfe (Sep 19, 2011)

* notice: I'm still learning how to use these forums so I don't know yet how to do that cool quote thingy you guys do.  But I'll learn.  


Julie, "How many of the following names do you recognize?"  None, quite honestly and if they are very successful authors/sellers, I say good for them.  Sure, they are unknown to lots and lots of people (including me), but they are Not unknown to the people who read their first book, or their second book.  If the average Jane had never read their very first book by one of these authors because the price was more than they were willing to spend, the author would still be unknown.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you are wrong, we just have a difference of opinions and that is the beauty of the world.  That's why I write Historical Fiction and others write horror or terror.

Krista, "If you were with a publisher, the publisher wouldn't lowball the price of your first book because you were unknown. So, why do people think they have to do this when they self-publish?"  My answer to that is the publisher IS known and people rely on those publisher names to say 'yes, this book is probably right up my alley so I'm willing to spend $3, $5, even $9.99 on this book of an unknown author.'  But for a 'new' author (no-longer 'unknown'   ), the power of the publisher isn't behind me, I must get people to read me in my own ways.

Again - we are all free to have our own opinions, and I know there are lots of people who have huge fanbases and have made lots of money by selling at $.99.  At the same time, I know there are many other authors who have made it with higher priced books.

And finally, Theresa.  You are right.  An author would have to sell LOTS more ebooks to make the same money as someone with higher prices.  Hopefully, someday I'll have the name power to pull in higher list prices.  Until then, since my goal is not (yet) the money, but rather fanbase/readship, I want to sell as many as I can.  I choose to do this by selling at $.99.

Hopefully, I won't have to come back here someday and eat my words.


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Theresa M Moore said:


> I have been struggling to get people to raise their ebook prices, not lower them. I have had an ongoing battle with people who seem to think that pricing their ebooks at 99 cents will get them sales. It will. But the author will have to sell way more ebooks to make the same kind of money they could get if they price the ebooks higher. Some do not understand the math, no matter how you explain it.


I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand the math. The thing is, many authors have made more sales *and* more money at 99 cents, or they've used that price with the first book in a series or something like that. My novel's at $3.99, but if I thought 99 cents would be a better choice in my situation I'd do it. It seems that most of the very successful authors here and elsewhere have used 99 cent and free ebooks to make a lot of money.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

Excellent original post and so true about engaging readers for the long haul - this is a great way your books read and discussed in book clubs. I use a variety of marketing methods and switch them up regularly to keep things interesting and fresh.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> Why would that be a joke?
> 
> Look, a lot of writers come to the decision to self-publish because they don't feel that traditional publishing is an option for them. Maybe they've gotten too many rejections for reasons of marketability or quality, or they hate the idea of not being in total control of their work, or they've simply realized that, many times, there is more potential to earn real money by self-publishing. Whatever the reason, too many of those authors fail to realize that self-publishing really, truly means _becoming a publisher_. Sure, you may just be publishing your own books, but _you are publishing books_.
> 
> ...


I thought the "joke" was obvious, but apparently not. The chances of a new and relatively unknown author being traditionally published in the current climate is so close to zero, the difference isn't worth mentioning. You are talking years of fruitless endeavour and hundreds of rejection letters, which I would argue is more soul destroying than fruitless efforts to to try and market your own work.

People keep saying it's hard work. I know that - that's not the problem. It's that you see little or no results for all your hard work.

I think the truth is that the originator of this thread actually has a diversified business over a number of different forms of media, so his/her model does not entirely fit the author model. At least, that's my impression.

Mark


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## Consuelo Saah Baehr (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks, I needed that reminder.


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## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

Quoted from: *MosesSiregarIII *


> I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't understand the math. The thing is, many authors have made more sales and more money at 99 cents, or they've used that price with the first book in a series or something like that. My novel's at $3.99, but if I thought 99 cents would be a better choice in my situation I'd do it. It seems that most of the very successful authors here and elsewhere have used 99 cent and free ebooks to make a lot of money.


This. My long gone day-job involved mathematical modelling. It all depends on what you are trying to do. There are many, many scenarios where you will make FAR more money pricing the first book in a series at 99 cents and the rest at higher prices. It comes down to the sales of the first book and the reader retention rate of the series. If you don't retain the readers you won't make any money. If you can retain them, you want the highest number of initial readers possible because you do lose readers from book to book. I've written a couple of longish (4 and 7 book) trad pub series which have sold in excess of three quarters of a million books and that has been my experience.

That said there are other scenarios where you want to make different pricing decisions. As ever, there is no one size fits all answer.

All the best,

Bill


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

Words to the wise.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

WilliamKing.me said:
 

> Quoted from: *MosesSiregarIII *
> This. My long gone day-job involved mathematical modelling. It all depends on what you are trying to do. There are many, many scenarios where you will make FAR more money pricing the first book in a series at 99 cents and the rest at higher prices. It comes down to the sales of the first book and the reader retention rate of the series. If you don't retain the readers you won't make any money. If you can retain them, you want the highest number of initial readers possible because you do lose readers from book to book. I've written a couple of longish (4 and 7 book) trad pub series which have sold in excess of three quarters of a million books and that has been my experience.
> 
> That said there are other scenarios where you want to make different pricing decisions. As ever, there is no one size fits all answer.
> ...


Your covers got my attention, Bill. Very nice! And let me extend a 'welcome to the boards' to you. Best of luck to you and your books!

--Jason


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

Alondo said:



> I thought the "joke" was obvious, but apparently not. The chances of a new and relatively unknown author being traditionally published in the current climate is so close to zero,


Really? Because in the last issue of _BookPages_, an industry publication I subscribe to, they had an entire section dedicated to books by first time authors. Each month, the percentage of books being promoted by first time authors is between 20-40%. In fact, they even have a special advertising program for publishers that gives a discount on advertising if the book is by a new author. Why would a major industry pub have a policy like that if new authors weren't an important part of the industry?



> I think the truth is that the originator of this thread actually has a diversified business over a number of different forms of media, so his/her model does not entirely fit the author model. At least, that's my impression.


But that is the point, when you become a self-publisher, you have to stop thinking like an author and start thinking like a business. The skills and thought processes between the two groups are hugely different. I use the same tools as you do. I use POD for my print books and I use various DIY services for my digital products. The tools are identical. It is how we think about those tools that we dif

I started my company in 2002, before there was an Amazon Kindle to do the heavy lifting. But before I even opened my business, I spent YEARS cutting my teeth working the industry. I freelanced. I submitted to magazines. I attended conventions and workshops. I read industry pubs and paid attention to trends over time. I built a name BEFORE I opened my virtual doors. And then I built the company up slowly. The first few years were a huge learning curve, because there weren't really people like me around on the forums to offer support or advice (back then the only game in town was lulu.com for print POD, and it was mostly the blind leading the blind.) I lost money my first three years, but I expected to and planned accordingly because that is what a smart business person does. I'm profitable now, but it still isn't "full time" income. I'd have to be able to clear $60,000 a year publishing to justify quitting my day job. But even as part time income, after expenses it pays my car payment and my game habit (video games are expensive, you know! lol). But I just roll most of the money back into the business to pay for the next project.


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## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

@Jason Thank you, sir! They are originally from the Czech editions of the books. I really liked them and got in touch with the artist. 

All the best,

Bill


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Great post, Julie. 
I haven't had a chance to read all the response, but I will. Thanks for the great advice. I think you're absolutely right about building a base of readers outside of other writers. I get a lot of posts from writers about their books, but I'm not their target audience. I worked for years in advertising, and it's important to know your market and go after it, consistently. We spoke a lot about "top of the mind awareness." Breaking through the clutter of messages takes multiple impressions--not just one fly-by hit. "Perceived value" is important. People are willing to pay for a product they perceive as valuable--that's why pricing too low can be detrimental. I hadn't heard of Project Wonderful. I'll have to check that out.

Suzanne


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Really? Because in the last issue of _BookPages_, an industry publication I subscribe to, they had an entire section dedicated to books by first time authors. Each month, the percentage of books being promoted by first time authors is between 20-40%. In fact, they even have a special advertising program for publishers that gives a discount on advertising if the book is by a new author. Why would a major industry pub have a policy like that if new authors weren't an important part of the industry?
> 
> But that is the point, when you become a self-publisher, you have to stop thinking like an author and start thinking like a business. The skills and thought processes between the two groups are hugely different. I use the same tools as you do. I use POD for my print books and I use various DIY services for my digital products. The tools are identical. It is how we think about those tools that we dif
> 
> I started my company in 2002, before there was an Amazon Kindle to do the heavy lifting. But before I even opened my business, I spent YEARS cutting my teeth working the industry. I freelanced. I submitted to magazines. I attended conventions and workshops. I read industry pubs and paid attention to trends over time. I built a name BEFORE I opened my virtual doors. And then I built the company up slowly. The first few years were a huge learning curve, because there weren't really people like me around on the forums to offer support or advice (back then the only game in town was lulu.com for print POD, and it was mostly the blind leading the blind.) I lost money my first three years, but I expected to and planned accordingly because that is what a smart business person does. I'm profitable now, but it still isn't "full time" income. I'd have to be able to clear $60,000 a year publishing to justify quitting my day job. But even as part time income, after expenses it pays my car payment and my game habit (video games are expensive, you know! lol). But I just roll most of the money back into the business to pay for the next project.


All I can say is, ask the legions of authors who post here how easy it is to get a traditional publisher and see what answers you get.

I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that most of what you earn comes from sources other than selling books. Am I right?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing in any way. I too run my own business which has nothing to do with media but which helps to fund the costs of producing my books. Nothing wrong in that. It's just that making a living just selling fiction alone is extremely difficult.

You obviously have a formula that works for you, by combining different media. You have the experience, expertise and "name" to do that. The vast majority of us don't. So techniques that work well in your business model wouldn't necessarily work well for we "lesser mortals" in the same way that Germany's economic policy wouldn't work so well in Greece.

I appreciate your time and your thoughts, though.

Mark


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Eric C said:


> I'm wid ya, Flan. I've got one literary agent peddling one of my books to major publishers and I have an offer on the table from another literary agent to peddle another book of mine. Meanwhile, I continue to self-pub. Diversification is my middle name, largely because I don't wish to put a lot of time and energy into marketing.


How many arms and legs did it cost you to get an agent?


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

modwitch said:


> Mark, with a trilogy out (is the series done?) and strong reviews, I'd consider a LibraryThing giveaway (and give away 300+ books) or making the first book in the trilogy free (while raising the price of the other two to $3.99). My two cents, anyhow. If the series isn't done, when will book four make an appearance?


Now here's where I get to display my ignorance. I never heard of "LibraryThing". A thing to do with libraries, perhaps. I'll put it in my growing "What's this and how to do things I don't know how to do," file. I suspect a lot of us have one of those, but I bet mine's bigger than yours!

I've never done a "giveaway". I've heard of it but don't really know what it entails. Another entry in my growing "What's this and..." Well you get the idea.

The series is actually planned for five books if you can believe that. The first three books are a complete story arc, but Book Three ends with a hook into the fourth, which I am writing now and which I hope to put out in 2012 if I can get off the promotion bandwagon long enough to do some actual writing!

I have experimented with pricing. At first lowered Book One to 99 cents but found that people only tended to buy that and not the others. So I put it back up to $2.99 and lowered Book Two to 99 cents instead and now they sell pretty evenly (though meagerly!) across the board.

Will look into your suggestions though.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> If I recall, isn't this the best method when there are 3 books total out? Or, is it 5? I remember it being an odd number but I can't remember which.


(shrugs) You tell me!

Mark


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Alondo said:


> I never heard of "LibraryThing". I've never done a "giveaway". I've heard of it but don't really know what it entails.


you can do an ebook giveaway on goodreads here:

http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/50149.eBook_Giveaways

here is david gaughran's excellent tutorial on librarything giveaways:

http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/promo-tip-librarything-giveaways/

I think these would work well for you.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

WilliamKing.me said:


> Quoted from: *MosesSiregarIII *
> This. My long gone day-job involved mathematical modelling. It all depends on what you are trying to do. There are many, many scenarios where you will make FAR more money pricing the first book in a series at 99 cents and the rest at higher prices. It comes down to the sales of the first book and the reader retention rate of the series. If you don't retain the readers you won't make any money. If you can retain them, you want the highest number of initial readers possible because you do lose readers from book to book. I've written a couple of longish (4 and 7 book) trad pub series which have sold in excess of three quarters of a million books and that has been my experience.
> 
> That said there are other scenarios where you want to make different pricing decisions. As ever, there is no one size fits all answer.
> ...


Bill, I seem to have done better placing my second book at 99 cents rather that the first, but I put that less down to mathematical modelling and more down to bizarre human psychology.

Mark


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

WilliamKing.me said:


> @Jason Thank you, sir! They are originally from the Czech editions of the books. I really liked them and got in touch with the artist.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Bill


Ditto on those covers Bill. They're first rate!


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> you can do an ebook giveaway on goodreads here:
> 
> http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/50149.eBook_Giveaways
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for that! It's gone into my "What's this and..." file. At least I feel like I'm getting some ideas. Oh, and my monthly sales jumped overnight from 26 to 33, so my cup indeed runneth over!!!


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *How you can fix it.*
> Get your books up on other sites. Smashwords makes it easy to get your book into wider distribution. Seek out smaller niche retailers that cater to your specific genre. Get your book available in print using a service like Createspace or directly with LSI so that you have print distribution through a variety of retailers outside on Amazon. Then people who learn about your book can shop and the stores they are comfortable with, instead of having to shop where you tell them to.....


I like most of your points Julie including pricing and self-publishing. Who else do you recommend for other sites in addition to amazon, BN, smashwords for digital; And for print in addition to createspace...which obviously will be self-publishing. I am not a fan of self-publishing. Thanks for starting the thread.


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## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

> Barbara Ehrenreich
> S.M. Stirling
> Paula McLain
> Kathy Reichs
> ...


Recognize? Six out of eight. Read? Five out of eight. And I agree with your post. Nicely said.


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## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

@Mark Thanks for the kind words about the covers. I will pass them along to Jan!

Quoted from *Alondo*


> Bill, I seem to have done better placing my second book at 99 cents rather that the first, but I put that less down to mathematical modelling and more down to bizarre human psychology.


Now you've got me curious -- any idea why that was?

All the best,

Bill


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

WilliamKing.me said:


> @Mark Thanks for the kind words about the covers. I will pass them along to Jan!
> 
> Quoted from *Alondo*
> Now you've got me curious -- any idea why that was?
> ...


My private theory Bill, and it is only a theory, is that you offer Book Two at 99 cents, for which the buyer gets offered a great read but at a price, because he hasn't read Book One. If he likes the idea of the story, then he figures, "I can pick up Books One and Two for an average of only a couple of bucks each and get the complete story." Then if he gets that far, he thinks, well for another three bucks I might as well pick up all three!"

I am not a psychologist, but the result of doing it that way has been that my sales have been virtually even over the three books, resulting in a higher income than when I priced Book One at 99 cents!

Mark


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> BookBaby is another one, right?


Looks like you have to pay them upfront to signup with them. I don't see if they offer anything more than smashwords.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Absolutely agree -- especially about pricing!
> I refuse to make any of my books free except for special, limited time or number promotions. Whenever I have made a book free I "sell" tons of copies but for all I know they are sitting on Kindles at #764 in the To-Be-Read-When-I-Get-Around-To-It category. And from the discussions I participate in on Goodreads and Amazon Discussions, I have deduced that to the majority of reader the word "free" translates to "because that's what it is worth".
> I have 2 $.99 books which I priced that way because they are very short -- 1 of them is selling like crazy and the other is not. What that says to me is that it is the story, not the price that is attracting people.


I agree with you. Couple free books I tried were not worth the time and I did not finish either one of them. You get what you pay holds true most of the time.


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## Bellagirl (Jul 23, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> And for print in addition to createspace...which obviously will be self-publishing. I am not a fan of self-publishing. Thanks for starting the thread.


Maybe I'm missing here, but I consider my ebooks self-published, just the same as their Createspace version. And I've sold nearly as many print as ebooks since launching my book a month and a half ago. So I don't really understand the difference -- self-publishing is self-publishing, whether via digital means or print. Isn't it ?!


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Bellagirl said:


> Maybe I'm missing here, but I consider my ebooks self-published, just the same as their Createspace version. And I've sold nearly as many print as ebooks since launching my book a month and a half ago. So I don't really understand the difference -- self-publishing is self-publishing, whether via digital means or print. Isn't it ?!


I understand both can be and are called self-publishing. To me ebooks are just uploaded to amazon, bn, smashwords or wherever. You don't have to promote and costs you nothing, unless you get it done by someone, except the time.

Print books I suppose you pay and even store. *I have never self-published print yet but I don't know what other method is to publish ebooks.*

I don't know if it is little better or still confusing. But thanks for your interest Bellagirl.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I understand both can be and are called self-publishing. To me ebooks are just uploaded to amazon, bn, smashwords or wherever. You don't have to promote and costs you nothing, unless you get it done by someone, except the time.
> 
> Print books I suppose you pay and even store. *I have never self-published print yet but I don't know what other method is to publish ebooks.*


You are making an arbitrary distinction that nobody else in the industry makes. Self-publishing has nothing to do with the technology involved and everything to do with whom is responsible for the production. Whether you pay $1, $100, or $10,000 has no bearing on the conversation. If you are acting as the producer, you are self-publishing. Period.

And to clarify, Createspace (and most print-on-demand services) have no up front costs. Books are not printed until an order is placed. Smart publishers keep a small inventory of physical books, but that isn't required.

You don't HAVE to promote, but who is going to know about your book or find you in the sea of 600,000 ebook titles available on Amazon otherwise? I'm not sure I understand your point about not having to promote. I don't know anyone who just uploaded to Amazon, did nothing, and had the money roll in.


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## WilliamKing.me (Jul 15, 2011)

*Quoted from Alondo*



> I am not a psychologist, but the result of doing it that way has been that my sales have been virtually even over the three books, resulting in a higher income than when I priced Book One at 99 cents!


Thanks, Mark. That's a scenario I never even considered -- live and learn!

All the best,

Bill


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## Tom Junior (Apr 4, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You don't HAVE to promote, but who is going to know about your book or find you in the sea of 600,000 ebook titles available on Amazon otherwise? I'm not sure I understand your point about not having to promote. I don't know anyone who just uploaded to Amazon, did nothing, and had the money roll in.


Every erotica writer on Kindle....


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2011)

T.J. Dotson said:


> Every erotica writer on Kindle....


They don't count. Everyone knows the internet was made for porn.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Alondo said:


> How many arms and legs did it cost you to get an agent?


It's becoming clear to me that you really don't know a lot about traditional publishing, or how to pursue it.

An honest agent won't charge you any fees. Their income should derive from commissions on sales, not upfront fees.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Alondo said:


> I thought the "joke" was obvious, but apparently not. The chances of a new and relatively unknown author being traditionally published in the current climate is so close to zero, the difference isn't worth mentioning. You are talking years of fruitless endeavour and hundreds of rejection letters, which I would argue is more soul destroying than fruitless efforts to to try and market your own work.
> 
> People keep saying it's hard work. I know that - that's not the problem. It's that you see little or no results for all your hard work.
> 
> ...


Nope, the "joke" most certainly wasn't obvious to me. Because, you know, I'm traditionally published. So it doesn't seem nearly impossible ("so close to zero the difference isn't worth mentioning"), in my experience, for a new author to get published. It happens all the time.

Maybe you heard of a little book called "The Help", which was recently made into a blockbuster movie? The author's name is Kathryn Stockett. "The Help" was her first novel (published in 2009). Yes, she received 60 rejections from literary agents before finding representation, but that was just part of the "hard work" you claim to have no problem with.

Is Ms. Stockett an extreme example of breakout success? Absolutely. But I once had my first novel published, too, as have many other once "new" authors. Keep in mind that "the big six" aren't the last word in publishing. There are many, many smaller publishers out there that produce excellent books.



Alondo said:


> All I can say is, ask the legions of authors who post here how easy it is to get a traditional publisher and see what answers you get.


Honestly, it wasn't that difficult for me. I'm not claiming that my experience is typical (as I write in a niche genre), and I wasn't chasing 6-figure advances, but within three years of really getting serious about writing, I'd signed my first publishing contract. It wasn't a soul-destroying process. It has been a tough experience at times, but so is everything about writing and publishing.

I'm so tired of hearing all these myths from people about how impossible it is to get published. It really isn't. Sure, plenty of writers won't ever realize that dream. But some will. And until you actually try (which I suspect you haven't), you really don't know.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> It's becoming clear to me that you really don't know a lot about traditional publishing, or how to pursue it.
> 
> An honest agent won't charge you any fees. Their income should derive from commissions on sales, not upfront fees.


Nah. It costs and arm and a leg, plus some chicken blood. And a little ritual dance, but I refuse to tell you exactly which one. I promise it isn't the hokey pokey. Oh, and in theory the arm shouldn't be yours, because otherwise it gets harder to type.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> How many of the following names do you recognize?
> 
> Barbara Ehrenreich
> S.M. Stirling
> ...


I got 5 out of 8 and have read 2. They're not brand new either, though they were at one point.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And to clarify, Createspace (and most print-on-demand services) have no up front costs. Books are not printed until an order is placed.


Who pays when order is placed for POD. Author/Publisher or Customer!!

And who pays when order is placed for eBook! Customer (except few cents deduction for download from royalty by amazon but BN cost is adjusted in royalty..)

If customer pays for both no difference; otherwise there is difference in the two IMO. As I said in the first missive, yes we can and do call both self-publishing. Thanks for explaining.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> I'm so tired of hearing all these myths from people about how impossible it is to get published. It really isn't. Sure, plenty of writers won't ever realize that dream. But some will. And until you actually try (which I suspect you haven't), you really don't know.


I very seriously will like to know traditional publishers who accept manuscripts on royalty bases with no upfront cost. I have published with few but it was not easier. It is time consuming and not without some rejection. Moreover, I am nonfiction writer where competition is relatively low. Thanks in advance for your help with the publisher.

I said seriously because I am looking for one. I have not self-published printed books yet. For eBooks there is no other way but self-publishing that I know. And eBook self-publishing is the easiest thing to do, IMO.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

For Createspace you have a set up cost but, as long as you design the book yourself it's pretty cheap. Once your book is up there then, when a customer orders it on Amazon, Createspace prints it & ships it to the customer and then you get your part of that sale. Much less than you'd get for an e-book because there is a charge towards printing costs but it comes out of what the customer pays Amazon, it's not charged to you.

Edited to add: Here is a blog post by Robin Sullivan about print-on-demand publishing http://write2publish.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-create-space-is-better-than.html


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

The strange thing that I've begun to realize is that the writer who shouts the loudest *isn't* the one whose books sell the most.  Most of the indie writers whose work I respect do what we all do-blog, visit the Kindleboards, etc., but they are not the ones screaming, Look at me!!

Yes, blogging and giveaways and so forth help spread the word, but I like to think that a goodbook speaks for itself.  Eventually, if you are patient, readers will find your work and recommend it to others.

Patience, I think, is important.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I very seriously will like to know traditional publishers who accept manuscripts on royalty bases with no upfront cost. I have published with few but it was not easier. It is time consuming and not without some rejection. Moreover, I am nonfiction writer where competition is relatively low. Thanks in advance for your help with the publisher.
> 
> I said seriously because I am looking for one. I have not self-published printed books yet. For eBooks there is no other way but self-publishing that I know. And eBook self-publishing is the easiest thing to do, IMO.


A. I don't know any respectable publisher that charges the author money to publish.
B. Publishers put out print books AND ebooks. There are even publishers that concentrate on e-books over print. Others are the opposite. Some only do print. Some only do ebook. I'm personally signed with an epublisher, plus I've signed with two other publishers for different works. Both will be print and ebook deals.
C. You won't have much luck selling the print rights to your book if you have self-published the ebook...unless you are selling thousands of copies. In that case, you are considered to have already published and, thus, most publishers aren't taking "reprints." You'd have to sell them something new.
D. No one can just tell you the name of a publisher because there are thousands of them. There are giant ones that require agents, giant ones that don't require agents, large ones, medium ones, niche ones, regional ones, small ones, micro ones...Perhaps start at a place like duotrope.com that will give you a basic starting point. Also, look at your favourite books and see who published them. Research them to make sure they aren't scammers.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> Honestly, it wasn't that difficult for me. I'm not claiming that my experience is typical (as I write in a niche genre), and I wasn't chasing 6-figure advances, but within three years of really getting serious about writing, I'd signed my first publishing contract. It wasn't a soul-destroying process. It has been a tough experience at times, but so is everything about writing and publishing.
> 
> I'm so tired of hearing all these myths from people about how impossible it is to get published. It really isn't. Sure, plenty of writers won't ever realize that dream. But some will. And until you actually try (which I suspect you haven't), you really don't know.


It wasn't that hard for me. In fact, I keep thinking I've screwed up somehow because it wasn't that bad. I wanted to be published with small presses. That has been my goal for starting out.

I sold Harvest Moon (novella): 2 queries, 1 rejection, then flying kite (short story) to the same place, then my short novel Road to Hell.
Then, Tranquility's Blaze (epic fantasy novel): 2 queries, 0 rejections, 1 author withdrawal to a new publisher
Then, What Kings Ate and Wizards Dranks: 1 proposal, 0 rejections (that means I haven't actually written the book...I sold on spec)

So, I've sold 3 book-length projects in 2011 with no rejections and no agent.

In a couple of years, I think I might want to move on to larger publishers. At that stage, I'm going to see lots of rejections. I'm ok with that. I've had a great time starting out and I know, eventually, I'm going to get what's coming to me 

And, so far, publishing has not been soul-destroying.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

Branding is one thing that I struggle with because my books are so different from each other.  It makes it very difficult to develop a cohesive on-line persona (let alone find a niche market.)


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Who pays when order is placed for POD. Author/Publisher or Customer!!


Customer. The only time I pay for books is if I want copies for an event.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

mscott9985 said:


> Branding is one thing that I struggle with because my books are so different from each other. It makes it very difficult to develop a cohesive on-line persona (let alone find a niche market.)


Same here.

I'm writing an historical series (two books out thus far) and suspense/thrillers that have quite different storylines, so I have no clue how to go about developing a brand.


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## AnnetteL (Jul 14, 2010)

Echoing Krista--a reputable publisher asks for no money and pays out royalties. 

I've done both indie and trad (while it's not easy to break in, it is possible, and I personally learned a ton about writing, craft, feedback, editing, and more that I couldn't have learned any other way). I have every plan on continuing both paths into the future. 

In fact, I have a trad book slated for release in 2012. I'm on the fence about whether to try for trad with another ms or go straight indie. I've loved both.


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## Anna Elliott (Apr 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Customer. The only time I pay for books is if I want copies for an event.


I'm so curious how other authors feel about this--does branding really help sales? Does it matter? I have 2 very different series', though both are historical fiction--on Regency, one Dark Ages. And it seems to me that mostly people find my books because they're looking for a book in the genre I'm in, not because I've established a brand. Of course maybe my sales would be even higher if I did?


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Customer. The only time I pay for books is if I want copies for an event.


Thanks a lot Julie. I do appreciate. I wonder if it's Createspace only or other POD publishers do the same??


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Thanks a lot *****. I do appreciate. I wonder if it's Createspace only or other POD publishers do the same??


All POD outfits pretty much work the same. POD stands for "print on demand." It means books are only printed when they are ordered. It is simply a type of technology available that allows a publisher to not have to maintain an inventory. You would be amazed how many publishers use POD instead of traditional offset printing these days.

I think you might be getting confused with some of the vanity publishers that charge huge up front fees. There are a lot of companies out there unfortunately more than happy to separate a writer from his money.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

Anna Elliott said:


> I'm so curious how other authors feel about this--does branding really help sales? Does it matter? I have 2 very different series', though both are historical fiction--on Regency, one Dark Ages. And it seems to me that mostly people find my books because they're looking for a book in the genre I'm in, not because I've established a brand. Of course maybe my sales would be even higher if I did?


I think a lot of people don't understand what branding is. Just because you write in diverse genres doesn't mean you can't establish a brand. I publish horror, science fiction, fantasy, and roleplaying games. But I have one overriding brand (Bards and Sages) and then associated secondary brands (such as the Bards and Sages Quarterly, The Karma Roleplaying System, Positive Publishing Perspectives, etc). Branding is more about consistency of message than specific genres. We each have our own style. The art of branding is taking that personal style and using it to create a consistent image that people come to trust and recognize.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Zelah Meyer said:


> For Createspace you have a set up cost but, as long as you design the book yourself it's pretty cheap. Once your book is up there then, when a customer orders it on Amazon, Createspace prints it & ships it to the customer and then you get your part of that sale. Much less than you'd get for an e-book because there is a charge towards printing costs but it comes out of what the customer pays Amazon, it's not charged to you.
> Edited to add: Here is a blog post by Robin Sullivan about print-on-demand publishing http://write2publish.blogspot.com/2011/02/why-create-space-is-better-than.html


Thanks for detailed information. I will look into that. And I am glad you did mention the setup cost to cover it all. Thanks.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> All POD outfits pretty much work the same. POD stands for "print on demand." It means books are only printed when they are ordered. It is simply a type of technology available that allows a publisher to not have to maintain an inventory. You would be amazed how many publishers use POD instead of traditional offset printing these days.
> I think you might be getting confused with some of the vanity publishers that charge huge up front fees.


Thanks Julie about POD info. There are setup fees for most of the POD, as I understand.
Yes, I was thinking of vanity publishers when I thought of self-publishing. That was the confusing part because I have no first hand experience with self-publishing.
I am glad you started this thread.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Thanks Julie about POD info. There are setup fees for most of the POD, as I understand.
> Yes, I was thinking of vanity publishers when I thought of self-publishing. That was the confusing part because I have no first hand experience with self-publishing.
> I am glad you started this thread.


There may be some POD who charge set up fees, but the major ones don't. CreateSpace certainly doesn't although you can (and I do) pay a fee in order to reduce your per copy price.

My sales still haven't dropped though so I'm waiting for the bomb to fall.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

I'm sorry, Julie, but your OP is COMPLETELY wrong. My sales have dropped because I've been substituting the content of my books with "I hate Flanders" repeated 30,000 times.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2011)

foreverjuly said:


> I'm sorry, *****, but your OP is COMPLETELY wrong. My sales have dropped because I've been substituting the content of my books with "I hate Flanders" repeated 30,000 times.


I hereby declare this thread now officially complete.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It wasn't that hard for me. In fact, I keep thinking I've screwed up somehow because it wasn't that bad. I wanted to be published with small presses. That has been my goal for starting out.
> 
> I sold Harvest Moon (novella): 2 queries, 1 rejection, then flying kite (short story) to the same place, then my short novel Road to Hell.
> Then, Tranquility's Blaze (epic fantasy novel): 2 queries, 0 rejections, 1 author withdrawal to a new publisher
> ...


This matches my experience. One rejected unagented query back in 2001. No rejections since (though I expect one any day now), because I've found small presses who don't require agents. Perhaps I shouldn't want any publisher who would have a writer like me as an author?


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I'd like to expand on one of Julie's points: Stop marketing to writers*. Stop only following writers on Twitter. Stop only following writer blogs. Stop only going to writer websites. Stop only commenting on writing blogs. Stop only knowing writers on the internet and get out and do something writing-related in your local community. Stop complaining about your 1 star reviews and go write something. Stop whining that I called you names on my blog and go take a writing class. Stop whining that Amazon is out to get you and go distribute in other places.
> 
> Most important thing said on the 'net in months.
> 
> *assuming your book isn't actually meant for writers.


Oh, damn--and I so like other writers! LOL Totally agree with this. So... Readers, readers come out, come out, wherever you are.

Great post. Thanks for the not-so-gentle tongue lashing. I am crushing all suggestions to my writer's heart. I've been so slack about getting my work up on other sites. (head hanging in shame) But I'm gettin' on it ASAP.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Alondo said:


> Why oh why do people always have to use technical abbrevations. I mean, what's HF mean? Hairy foot


LOL Alondo. I get tired of abbreviations, too. By now I *get* most of them, but sometimes....


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Alondo said:


> What you're now seeing is me lying flat on the on the floor while I try and recover from the shock.
> 
> You must've found the fairy crock of gold at the end of the rainbow. Or maybe your address is a bank vault, somewhere?
> 
> ...


Mark, you must be doing something write/right on your Lodestone series.  Twenty-nine reviews--taking your work to 4+ stars, plus all kinds of awards. I'm impressed.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> Perhaps I shouldn't want any publisher who would have a writer like me as an author?


I always question the sobriety of any acquisitions editor that accepts one of my manuscripts.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Alondo said:


> Why oh why do people always have to use technical abbrevations. I mean, what's HF mean? Hairy foot


Well, I used it partially because I'm lazy and partially because both Gemi, who I was answering, and I write *cough* Historical Fiction.


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## Alan Ryker (Feb 18, 2011)

That's weird, Jason, because your "No TV and No Beer Make Homer Go Crazy" was such a huge hit.

Maybe the new book felt derivative.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I always question the sobriety of any acquisitions editor that accepts one of my manuscripts.


I'm always happy for about five minutes, and then I suddenly start wondering if it's just a crappy publisher.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> I'm always happy for about five minutes, and then I suddenly start wondering if it's just a crappy publisher.


Same 

I think a lot of it is knowing exactly what you want and then submitting to the places where your work is the best fit.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Good post, Julie, thanks. Speaking of non-Amazon outlets, I hear a lot about Nook, Smashwords, and Apple, but are there people here who are successful with Google Books and Sony? 

I'd like to find out before I expend my limited energy with Google Books (no sales from Sony yet, and don't know if their numbers are respectable).

Thank you,
Richard


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> In a couple of years, I think I might want to move on to larger publishers. At that stage, I'm going to see lots of rejections. I'm ok with that. I've had a great time starting out and I know, eventually, I'm going to get what's coming to me
> 
> And, so far, publishing has not been soul-destroying.


If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*

Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Great post, Julie.

I especially like your two points:

1) Fake it till you make it -- so true! Acting confident and successful even when just starting out attracts an audience, until it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

2) Price point needs to be on par or comparable to the traditional publishing industry. One of the advantages of Amazon in particular is that it acts like the Great Equalizer and all books are potentially displayed the same way. A low price point screams unprofessional. The last thing we want to do is look "different" -- hence, moderate prices, sharp covers, no clunky unprofessionalism anywhere on the book record (including the book descriptive text/blurb or reviews and quotes from shady venues like Ma and Pa's Little Blog, or your dentist who loved your book), clean copy (no typos!) results in the professional appearance the customer finds attractive, and frankly, expects.

Great discussion!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


Gee, I didn't realize I was a "lower rank of publisher" and that my authors were just 'settling" for me. I thought they actually appreciated the fact that I took care of them and gave them personalized attention they couldn't get from the "prestigious" guys. 

This mentality is part of the problem with writers. Everyone hates the Big Six, but everyone thinks they are the only publishers that matter. You don't get to whine that they only want to publish bestsellers and then make statements that they are the only publishers that matter.

Writers should spend less time worrying about...eh hem...prestige...and more time researching the markets to find publishers that are the best fit for the type of book they write. A big publisher may not be the best choice for your book and may not know how to tap the target market you write for. Many small presses are highly specialized and know their niches like the back of their hands.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

Zelah Meyer said:


> For Createspace you have a set up cost but, as long as you design the book yourself it's pretty cheap.


There's no set up cost. There is a ProPlan fee you can opt for which insures a higher royalty percentage, but there isn't another charge unless you hire CreateSpace to do your interior and cover design.



> Once your book is up there then, when a customer orders it on Amazon, Createspace prints it & ships it to the customer and then you get your part of that sale. Much less than you'd get for an e-book because there is a charge towards printing costs but it comes out of what the customer pays Amazon, it's not charged to you.


Actually, I make much more when Amazon sells a print book than when they sell an ebook, about double the amount per book sale. Matter of fact, the amount of _royalty_ I get per print book is higher than the _price_ of the ebook, and I only get 70% of that ebook price in royalty.

And if I buy print books and sell them myself at book signings, festivals and such, the profit on one sale of a print book is _substantially_ higher than the profit on the sale of an ebook. (The amount of profit seems a little obscene, so I always discount the books I sell personally.)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


I love it when people don't actually know what they are talking about. It gives me cuddles.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Writers should spend less time worrying about...eh hem...prestige...and more time researching the markets to *find publishers that are the best fit for the type of book they write.* A big publisher may not be the best choice for your book and may not know how to tap the target market you write for. Many small presses are highly specialized and know their niches like the back of their hands.


Exactly.

What was a top publisher going to do with a Canadian First Nations novella? Nothing. It didn't fit Asimov's and a couple others who do take novellas. So, what was I supposed to do? Oh, I know. I researched and found the best fit.

My upcoming short novel is too short for the giant publishers. I guess I should have extended it out and tried them first, even if that wasn't want I wanted for the novel. Oh, I suppose I should have just self-published, because there is only giant publishers and self-publishing. I keep forgetting this fact.

I don't randomly submit my books to the top and work my way down. I take the time to read books and stories from different publishers and decide if my work is a good fit for them. Then, I look at what each particular one can offer me and my project. Then, I decide what I where to send it.

I can list a dozen Canadian publishers that folks here have never heard of that are considered micro presses. One hand makes the freaking books themselves...they have an author who won the Giller Prize in Canada last year (that's one of our giant literary awards).

I have to stop. I'm really p*ssed off.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


Well, I've been appropriately put in my place. Thanks for the reminder that I'm settling. 

I happen to have a different opinion, but what's the point?

ETA: Also, I notice you list yourself as a publisher, so I am curious about this. Which one are you, Harper or Collins?


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## MarieDees (Feb 14, 2011)

> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


I hear this now and then, but it contradicts what you'll actually hear from authors, agents and even the big publishers. The question was posed to a panel of authors and editors for the Big 6 at Romantic Times and the answer was that Big 6 actually have a great respect for small press and small press authors.

Big publisher answer to this was -- "We are looking for books that appeal to the broadest audience out there, and yes, we have to turn down many well-written books that might appeal to a niche or local audiences simply because that doesn't meet our business model. Small publishers are better suited to deal with those markets."

Author who'd moved from small press to big press also said "I had more freedom in what I wrote, the language I used, the subjects I tackled when I was with the small press. Yes, I'm selling more books now, but I also have to produce books that (Big Publisher) can market to their audience."

These comment were geared to works put out by small presses with acceptance rates that run about 5%, meaning they are very selective in the works they chose. And the Big Publishers know that.


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

What Marie says. I like small publishers. They take the time to do the things they way you want, to get to know you, and let's not forget they also give much higher royalties than the Big Six. Not that I would mind selling to the Big Six. But I'm not sure my stories are a good fit for them anyway - and I do love my 30-40% royalty.


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


Even though others have already expressed their irritation with this ignorant, condescending comment, I can't help but chime in, too.

I didn't settle for my (completely professional, smaller-than-NY-but-relatively-large) publisher. They are the best publisher out there for the type of books I write. The "Big 6" pretty much doesn't publish much in my chosen genre, which also means that they basically have no experience marketing to my target audience. If I had somehow managed to get a contract from a massive publisher (despite the fact that, as I said, they don't really print books like mine), I am 100% certain that I wouldn't have received the nurturing, support, and encouragement that my smaller publisher has given me over the years. And because books for my niche audience would never sell the number of copies that giant publishers demand, I likely would've been dropped after my first book.

There is so much ignorance floating out there around publishing. It constantly astounds me how many writers genuinely believe that the major companies are the only legitimate avenue to being published. There are many acknowledged benefits to working with smaller publishers. A small publisher values their authors more--as an author, there's a sense that you're not just another number to them. If your sales aren't stellar (according to some arbitrary scale), a large publisher will often drop you after your first book. Small publishers are more willing to invest in an author they feel has potential, and give them time to develop their talent and gain footing. The list goes on.

Bottom line, it would truly suck if there were only six legitimate publishing options out there. Happily, that's not the case. I'm glad to see so many small press published authors in here who have had positive experiences, like me. I wouldn't trade the experience I've had with my publisher for anything. I've worked with two editors over the past six years, who both taught me so, so much about writing. I have a wonderful amount of freedom as far as what I do write, and am valued as a top-selling author for the company. I doubt highly that I would've gotten the same treatment at Harper Collins.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Tommie Lyn said:


> There's no set up cost. There is a ProPlan fee you can opt for which insures a higher royalty percentage, but there isn't another charge unless you hire CreateSpace to do your interior and cover design.
> 
> Actually, I make much more when Amazon sells a print book than when they sell an ebook, about double the amount per book sale. Matter of fact, the amount of _royalty_ I get per print book is higher than the _price_ of the ebook, and I only get 70% of that ebook price in royalty.
> 
> And if I buy print books and sell them myself at book signings, festivals and such, the profit on one sale of a print book is _substantially_ higher than the profit on the sale of an ebook. (The amount of profit seems a little obscene, so I always discount the books I sell personally.)


I also find that I make a lot more on a print sale from Createspace than from the ebook. I mean, I also charge more for a print book. Makes sense, right? For another name I write under I have the print book at 14.99 and the ebook at 3.99 It's 400 pages, so I feel like the print price is reasonable. With the $40 cost that I chose to use with Createspace (as already stated, that's totally optional), I get around $5 for print books, which is certainly more than I get for the 3.99 ebook.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

MarieDees said:


> These comment were geared to works put out by small presses with acceptance rates that run about 5%, meaning they are very selective in the works they chose. And the Big Publishers know that.


5% ?!?

Either they produce an extraordinary number of titles a year or they get very limited submissions.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> If you have been only submitting to the lower ranks of publishers, you have not been properly "bruised" yet. *grin*
> 
> Incidentally, the recommended submission strategy is always to work your way top-down. Start with the most prestigious, and aim high. There's no reason to "settle" for semi-pro or micro publisher unless you have no other choice and have exhausted all the upper tier guys.


There is a lot of truth to this, not that the "higher ranks" are better but the whole agent/Big 6 process is tremendously bruising. I don't like referring to them as "higher ranks" though because that does imply that they're better. They aren't. Still there is no use denying that the big publishers do have more pull when it comes to little details like where your novels are displayed in bookstores or forcing "the agency model" down Amazon's throat.

Why pretend facts don't exist?

Edit: Listen, I have done every kind of submissions there is. Big publisher, small publisher, agent. I've sold work. And let me assure you, it is a rare writer who doesn't acquire some bruises along the way.


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## MarieDees (Feb 14, 2011)

tensen said:


> 5% ?!?
> 
> Either they produce an extraordinary number of titles a year or they get very limited submissions.


Some only open to outside submissions a couple of times a year. The way the market is divided right now, almost any publisher not in the Big 6 is considered a small press. Some publishers like Ellora's Cave, Samhain, Mundania and a few others are putting out a good number of titles each month and even have different divisions handling different markets. But in the grand scheme of thing, they're still "small."

Adding -- keep in mind the 5% includes the submissions from in-house authors.


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## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

I did a blog post about this using the analogy of professional baseball and the minor league system to develop my theory on small press publishers. There are all sizes, just like there are Minor League Baseball teams. And at some levels, the money earned by a successful minor league team is hard to distinguish from that of a tiny-market major league team. 

I went with a small press because it seemed like the best fit. My work would be an also-ran at a Big 6 house, but can find the love and attention it needs with a smaller house. And I can make a better royalty percentage on my ebook sales.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And let me assure you, it is a rare writer who doesn't acquire some bruises along the way.


You haven't been properly bruised 

Fiction bruising is nothing. Try writing a freelance article on a hot political issue in your city. I needed popcorn to deal with the backlash on my personal Facebook account as friends and family on the opposing side eviscerated me publicly, going so far as blogging about how wrong I was in some cases. Now _that_ bruised my tush.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

I have seen a lot of writers settle. I'm not talking about going with a small press, but going with a truly _awful_ small press because it's the one that said yes, and they get to say that they've been published. I wouldn't consider going with Samhain settling, but for every Samhain there are dozens of crappy little presses that wouldn't know a good book if it bit them. They're enthusiastic, they love books, they don't know squat about editing or publishing or cover design or any of the things they really should be good at. Some are embarrassingly awful, and it's a shame for them and the writers whose books they're putting out.

At least if someone self-publishes a book that's not very good, it can be taken down later, changed, whatever. Sign a contract, and that crappily-done book stays up as long as the press says it does. I think that's sad.

All that means is that writers should _heavily _ research any small presses they're interested in.

And I don't think the comment that has been repeated over and over was meant in a derogatory way. I can see how it could be deemed offensive, but I really don't think that was the intention of it.

Shelley


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

If I substituted "BIG NY 6" wherever you put "small press", it would be a near copy of a lot of posts on KB...

ETA: wait, no. It's missing a Snookie reference.


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## CKVolnek (Jul 18, 2011)

Great discussion guys. I've picked up some great tips.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> If I substituted "BIG NY 6" wherever you put "small press", it would be a near copy of a lot of posts on KB...


Hopefully any writer will research any press he hopes to publish with. But there's no way you'll find something as bad from a Big 6 as you will a few of the e-presses I'm thinking of. Just no way.

P.S. Snookie!

(That will be the only time I reference her, ever, I hope.) 

Shelley


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't think it was meant in a derogatory way either. For starters, Vera Nazarian is a very respected small press publisher in the fantasy genre herself, so it wouldn't really make sense for her to look down on small presses in general.

Besides, the advice to start with the most prestigious and/or highest paying publisher and work your way down the list is very common. I heard it lots of times in the SFF community, applied to both short story and novel publishers. This doesn't mean that you should send your work to a publisher that's clearly not a good fit for your work. It means that when making a list of publishers for a given work you should start with your dream publisher and then work your way down to your second favourite, third favourite and so on.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You haven't been properly bruised
> 
> Fiction bruising is nothing. Try writing a freelance article on a hot political issue in your city. I needed popcorn to deal with the backlash on my personal Facebook account as friends and family on the opposing side eviscerated me publicly, going so far as blogging about how wrong I was in some cases. Now _that_ bruised my tush.


Krista, I started out as a journalist on a daily. 

I didn't want to bring that into the discussion, but that is a whole 'nother level of bruising. Let's say bruises on bruises. The last thing anyone wants to say to me is that they want to be a writer. I'm a bit gentler now, but I used to be bad about telling people home truths about the joys of being a writer.

Seriously, no disrespect at all to small publishers, but they rarely treat writers, in my experience anyway, with the scorn, disdain and general disrespect that agents and big publishers can manage.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

shelleyo1 said:


> Hopefully any writer will research any press he hopes to publish with. But there's no way you'll find something as bad from a Big 6 as you will a few of the e-presses I'm thinking of. Just no way.


I do agree with you re: some bad e-presses. I'm just referring to the concept that we're all publishing with the bottom feeding and without bruises. A rejection from Tor isn't going make me more of an author, nor would that sting more/less than anything else. My bruises aren't from rejections; they are from hard work and making sacrifices with my time when all I want to do is sleep.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

shelleyo1 said:


> I have seen a lot of writers settle. I'm not talking about going with a small press, but going with a truly _awful_ small press because it's the one that said yes, and they get to say that they've been published. I wouldn't consider going with Samhain settling, but for every Samhain there are dozens of crappy little presses that wouldn't know a good book if it bit them. They're enthusiastic, they love books, they don't know squat about editing or publishing or cover design or any of the things they really should be good at. Some are embarrassingly awful, and it's a shame for them and the writers whose books they're putting out.
> 
> At least if someone self-publishes a book that's not very good, it can be taken down later, changed, whatever. Sign a contract, and that crappily-done book stays up as long as the press says it does. I think that's sad.
> 
> ...


QFT


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Krista, I started out as a journalist on a daily.


You have my sympathy. I had no idea. Anything I've ever said in disagreement with you, I take back. Here, have a cookie. 

God, going it once a month was enough for me!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> It means that when making a list of publishers for a given work you should start with your dream publisher and then work your way down to your second favourite, third favourite and so on.


What if your dream publisher for a specific work is a small press? That's what I've done. Some of us write regional works. Some of us write niche. Some of us don't want a big publisher for a specific project. Some of us want to work with a publisher we've worked with before. Some of us want to work with an editor who's moved on to a new house that's just starting up.

Some of us have dreams different than others.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I do agree with you re: some bad e-presses. I'm just referring to the concept that we're all publishing with the bottom feeding and without bruises. A rejection from Tor isn't going make me more of an author, nor would that sting more/less than anything else. My bruises aren't from rejections; they are from hard work and making sacrifices with my time when all I want to do is sleep.


 Hours and hours and hours working on queries packets, partials and fulls to make sure they exactly fit agents guidelines to be responded to with bare courtesy if that. Manuscripts sitting for months on editors desks.

Here is a typical war story: An agent at a large and prestigeous agency (VERY big one) whom I had queried on a novel requested a partial. Six weeks later, he then requested a full, saying he normally responded within three months. Four months later I sent him a courteous reminder, a month later another courteous reminder. A month later, I emailed him that I was considering signing with another agent. No responce to any correspondence.

A *year* later, he sent me a rejection.   

Typical story. Writers who have been through it have thousands of them.

No, what ultimately bothered me was feeling like we were treated like something to be scraped off the bottom of their shoes.

The entire process as it has been for the last couple of decades is tailored to convince writers that they are the bottom of the food chain and they have been. That has changed and small publishers have been a part of that change and epublishing even more so. Thank GOD, it can never go back to the way it was just a few years ago. (I hope)

Anyway at the moment my sales are NOT going down. They're modest, but continually going up. *shrug*

Really, I'm HAPPY with how things are.

Edit: The daily I worked at, the day they announced the closing, my editor picked up a chair and tossed it through a window. That was a mild reaction for him. Yeah, lots of us have bruises. They come with the territory. I haven't had it one whit harder than most writers out there. I don't claim I have but it is a TOUGH business, not for the faint of heart.


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## Nancy Fulda (Apr 24, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> There is a lot of truth to this, not that the "higher ranks" are better but the whole agent/Big 6 process is tremendously bruising. I don't like referring to them as "higher ranks" though because that does imply that they're better. They aren't. Still there is no use denying that the big publishers do have more pull when it comes to little details like where your novels are displayed in bookstores or forcing "the agency model" down Amazon's throat.


+1

I agree that small presses have a lot to offer and that the important thing to find the right publisher for a given book. However, I'm concerned that some authors whose work would actually fit well at and be well-served by one of the Big 6 never submit there and go with a smaller, less appropriate (for that particular book) publisher instead.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> What if your dream publisher for a specific work is a small press? That's what I've done. Some of us write regional works. Some of us write niche. Some of us don't want a big publisher for a specific project. Some of us want to work with a publisher we've worked with before. Some of us want to work with an editor who's moved on to a new house that's just starting up.
> 
> Some of us have dreams different than others.


I actually agree with you. That's why I wrote "dream publisher" rather than "Big 6" or whatever. Because the biggest publisher is not necessarily the best for every project.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Nancy Fulda said:


> +1
> 
> I agree that small presses have a lot to offer and that the important thing to find the right publisher for a given book. However, I'm concerned that some authors whose work would actually fit well at and be well-served by one of the Big 6 never submit there and go with a smaller, less appropriate (for that particular book) publisher instead.


This could also be said of self-publishing or any other form of publishing. People have all sorts of reasons for what they do, some of which will not always make sense to others. Real people, unlike characters, do not have to be realistic.

It just comes down to one's own opinion, which is hardly applicable beyond one's own work.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

anne_holly said:


> This could also be said of self-publishing or any other form of publishing. People have all sorts of reasons for what they do, some of which will not always make sense to others. Real people, unlike characters, do not have to be realistic.
> 
> It just comes down to one's own opinion, which is hardly applicable beyond one's own work.


Sometimes our decisions strike other people insane but we have to do what is right for us.

Another of my war stories. 

Ten days before one of my novels was self-published, my former agent contacted me that an editor at a Big 6 publisher (one which I won't name here) had contacted him about looking at that novel.

Full stop

What to do. Cover ready, etc. Do I put it on hold for months while some editor _considers_ it? And if they wanted it, I already knew I was not in a position to negotiate a favorable contract.

That was as hard a decision as I've ever made, but I said no. A lot of people would say I was crazy, but it was the right decision for me at the time.

As far as small publishers are concerned, there are some darn good ones out there and some of them such as Samhain are not all THAT small. Nothing wrong with going with submitting to whoever you think is best. Or refusing to submit at all. It's an individual decision, just one we need to try to make with as much information as possible rather than in the dark or based on myth.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Someone once said that even a luxury yacht is tiny next to a giant ocean liner, but we wouldn't mind that yacht all the same.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Someone once said that even a luxury yacht is tiny next to a giant ocean liner, but we wouldn't mind that yacht all the same.


Not me. Marina fees are killer, and lord only knows how much it costs to have the septic pumped.

Success is high priced.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)




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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


>


Knowing how much it costs to feed horses, I always look them in the mouth if someone is trying to foist one on me.


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## LKWatts (May 5, 2011)

This is one of the best posts I've read on here   It's great!


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Dear Everyone,

I am going to elaborate on what I said, and hopefully this will make better sense in proper context.

I am the publisher of *Norilana Books*, a tiny specialty press with many critically acclaimed and multiple-award-nominated titles in print, by stellar authors such as Tanith Lee, Sherwood Smith, Modean Moon, Eugie Foster, Mike Allen, Deborah J. Ross, William Sanders, Roby James, Catherynne M. Valente, John Grant, David Dvorkin, Leonore Dvorkin, Rosemary Hawley Jarman, Adam Campan, Dave Hutchinson, JoSelle Vanderhooft, Ken Rand, Val Noirre, and the Marion Zimmer Bradley Literary Works Trust.

I am absolutely proud of my authors and of what I do on their behalf in terms of beautiful cover design, editing, packaging, sending out review copies, marketing, etc., to the best of my ability.

However, I am a publishing peon.

And yes, they are "settling for me" when they make the choice to publish with me.

In fact, I automatically *REJECT* the fine submissions of my peers and colleagues (yes, I am an author myself), if they tell me they are submitting to Norilana *without having tried submitting elsewhere first* such as the major publishers.

Even if I desperately love their work and dearly want to publish it, I tell them outright that they need to try better venues first, and then come back to me if all else fails. (Many do come back, because the publishing industry sucks, and so many fine brilliant works by proven, established writers are getting rejected by the top-tier markets -- at which point I welcome them with open arms and start doing for them the best I can...)

That's because I am an author first, and I want the best for my author friends. *And that means all of you*.

If anyone says I am their "dream publisher" I will recommend they get their head examined. *grin*

And if anyone chooses to maintain that they went with a small press on purpose, for arcane reasons of their own, I will continue to highly doubt that they are not fooling themselves. Mind you -- I am NOT blaming them (again, publishing sucks) -- but let's be open to the truth and reality. Small press is a blessing, and yes, it serves a solid undeniable purpose, but (except for very few highly technical niche books) it simply cannot offer the same level of distribution, clout, and plain opportunity as the larger houses.

Take it from someone who's been traditionally published since 1988, and self-published, and small-press published, and everything in-between, and has worked for a number of other mid-range publishers in other capacities before venturing with my own small press.

I've settled, I've been screwed over and trampled on (one book of mine, about to hit the stores in 2 days, ended up instead in publisher bankruptcy court limbo when the publisher (poor Byron Preiss) got hit by a bus on his way to synagogue in New York, and I lost rights to it for half a decade), I've been nominated for awards, and I've been rejected and accepted, and I've been given praise, ridicule, adoration, and critical acclaim -- you name it, I've seen it, and in some cases, done it.

I do know what I'm talking about.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> And if anyone chooses to maintain that they went with a small press on purpose, for arcane reasons of their own, I will continue to highly doubt that they are not fooling themselves.


Thanks for letting me know that I'm not as self-aware as you. I couldn't have figured that out on my own.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Vera, interesting post. Thanks for sharing your insight.

B.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Typical story. Writers who have been through it have thousands of them.
> 
> No, what ultimately bothered me was feeling like we were treated like something to be scraped off the bottom of their shoes.


I don't know if I'd go that far . . . I think, in the end, it all comes down to a imprudent appraisal of the _relative_ value of one's own time.

You should treat your time as precious, of course; that comes with self-esteem.

The problem is when you come to believe that since your time is valuable, everyone _else's_ time is valueless. For some reason, this attitude is extraordinarily resilient to change, even in the face of direct proof of its bad effects.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:
 

> I am absolutely proud of my authors and of what I do on their behalf in terms of beautiful cover design, editing, packaging, sending out review copies, marketing, etc., to the best of my ability.
> 
> However, I am a publishing peon.
> 
> And yes, they are "settling for me" when they make the choice to publish with me.


Wow.

What a refreshingly mature and humble person!!


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Thanks for letting me know that I'm not as self-aware as you. I couldn't have figured that out on my own.


Krista,

I honestly, truly, deeply wish you nothing but the best. I mean it 100%.

And -- *none of us are as self-aware as we should be*. I certainly am not. I struggle and work hard to recognize this in myself, constantly, and remind myself daily of what reality truly is.

I am as guilty as anyone of fooling myself into erroneous detrimental, depreciating beliefs about the industry, about my own work, my own publishing history and opportunities, and my current _status quo_.

I deeply appreciate whenever anyone opens my eyes to any element that which might help me in my own publishing journey and career. Even when it hurts like hell. They may be entirely wrong... or they may be right, even if it's only in a tiny way that may serve to be useful in the long run.

Because it allows me (and you, and all of us) to get my bearings, get a grip, and re-examine my course of action.

At any given point, I may or may not be doing the right (best, optimal) thing for my own career, and it is a good thing to be reminded of it. Constant re-examination of reality and facts is what gives us all new opportunities and forces us to action our own behalf.

Best of luck and wishing you many, many sales in whatever kind of publishing path you take. No one says you are on the wrong track -- but I *am* saying you could be on a better track if you constantly check and re-evaluate your situation... *constantly*.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I take several publishing options, depending upon each project's needs and how best to achieve my end objective. My career objectives are the ones that achieve the best options to make me happy - and what will make me happy today is not what might make other people happy. Again, the idea that I could be on a better track, it is just so offensive and deeming for you to say that.

I'm also curious, though I don't want an actual answer to this. If small presses are settling, I wonder how much further down self-publishing is? I'm writing a novella series purposely for self-publishing. I certainly don't feel like I'm settling for writing a project I want to self-publish. Likewise, writing a full length novel series knowing I'd want a small press to represent it isn't settling in my mind.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I take several publishing options, depending upon each project's needs and how best to achieve my end objective. My career objectives are the ones that achieve the best options to make me happy - and what will make me happy today is not what might make other people happy. Again, the idea that I could be on a better track, it is just so offensive and deeming for you to say that.
> 
> I'm also curious, though I don't want an actual answer to this. If small presses are settling, I wonder how much further down self-publishing is? I'm writing a novella series purposely for self-publishing. I certainly don't feel like I'm settling for writing a project I want to self-publish. Likewise, writing a full length novel series knowing I'd want a small press to represent it isn't settling in my mind.


Again, we could always be on a better track, each and every one of us, including J.A. Konrath and J.K. Rowling.

The moment we stop striving, exploring our options, and widening our approach, we become stuck in a rut, whether it's career choices or anything else. Nothing offensive or demeaning, unless you choose to read into it that way. Hope not! 

As far as whether it's more of a "settling" decision to go with small press versus self-publishing (sorry, you *will* get an answer whether you like it or not. *grin*) -- not at all! These are like apples and oranges, and not necessarily comparable. Self-publishing can be a far better deal than going with a small press -- sometimes. At other times, it's the other way around.

The final answer is, it depends on the specific situation.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I take several publishing options, depending upon each project's needs and how best to achieve my end objective. My career objectives are the ones that achieve the best options to make me happy - and what will make me happy today is not what might make other people happy. Again, the idea that I could be on a better track, it is just so offensive and deeming for you to say that.
> 
> I'm also curious, though I don't want an actual answer to this. If small presses are settling, I wonder how much further down self-publishing is? I'm writing a novella series purposely for self-publishing. I certainly don't feel like I'm settling for writing a project I want to self-publish. Likewise, writing a full length novel series knowing I'd want a small press to represent it isn't settling in my mind.


I don't feel like there is a need to personalize this. From my readings of Vera's posts, she was stating that one of the best practice principles for all businesses is revisiting one's business plan regularly to ensure that it remains congruent with one's goals. Sometimes no changes to a plan are warranted...but sometimes you've gotta sell the boat.

Critiquing business plans is the bread and butter of any business school curriculum, just as critiquing novels is the bread and butter of the MFA. And don't even get me started on surgical M&M's. Those puppies take the process to a whole new level. Don't like some angry phone calls? How about public humiliation in front of your peers?   

My point is that no one improves via echo. Even the greatest businesses engage in self-critique. It is one of the many benefits of having an independent board of directors, and why Deloitte consultants make so much dang money. Such re-evaluations were what prompted Google to set up Gmail, Netflix to abandon DVD mailings, and IBM to shift away from PC sales. We turn to others for input because it is _critical_ to question our own judgment. We are all human beings, and human beings are some pretty incredible pieces of work. We are chock full of unrecognized biases. We are constantly being influenced by unconscious thoughts and feelings. We can easily mistake ice cream for an iceberg-and we are never best served by hanging out with our fellow bobble heads. I personally don't want to end up like Captain Ahab (he was the captain of the Titanic, right?), so I appreciate challenging posts like Vera's. Now, if I may be so bold, I believe the crux of Vera's point was this:



Vera Nazarian said:


> Small press is a blessing, and yes, it serves a solid undeniable purpose, but (except for very few highly technical niche books) it simply cannot offer the same level of distribution, clout, and plain opportunity as the larger houses.


I feel this is a valid perspective. Perhaps you disagree. But if one were to believe this to be true, then urging fellow writers to aim for a large house would not be an attempt to be hurtful. It would be an attempt to be helpful (and against Vera's financial interests). Above all else, Vera's postings got me thinking, and I don't think we should be discouraging that.

Now as to the question in your post: I don't believe self-publishing can be compared on the same spectrum. Both mega and micro-publishers require their authors to sign a contract. There is a trade of services for proceeds. The self-published author has exchanged none of their book's future value for services. He/she is another animal (that is not precluded from signing with a publisher in the future). I'm sure there are some exceptions, but we're gonna be getting really nitpicking if we go down that road. Nowadays, the process of self-publishing could perhaps be best thought of as sending query letters directly to the public-with the option to sell out to The Man in the future.

Peace,

B.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Off with your head, heretic.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> I don't feel like there is a need to personalize this. From my readings of Vera's posts, she was stating that one of the best practice principles for all businesses is revisiting one's business plan regularly to ensure that it remains congruent with one's goals. Sometimes no changes to a plan are warranted...but sometimes you've gotta sell the boat.


Yup, you pretty much nailed it, thanks, B. Justin!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Julie, I just want to say how much I love this post. While many self-publishing authors rushed out to Amazon, somewhere in the mayhem, it was forgotten that 'indie' means 'independent' and that the onus on getting things done and doing them well is on the author. That means the failures are the author's, too. I agree that it's hard that Amazon algorithm changes affect self-publishing writers disproportionally, however, as self-publishing writer, you need to think ahead and have a plan B, which covers the unthinkable 'what if I suddenly can't/don't sell much anymore at my best-selling venue?'

As to small press, I would say, try before you buy. There are many lovely small presses who do excellent jobs and have a bunch of loyal readers. There are also many small presses who send you crap contracts, don't stick to said contracts, drop off the face of the Earth and require horrible changes to your manuscript. Before you sign, check them out. Is their website nice and easy to navigate? Are their blurbs well-written and free of grammatical clunkery? Is their Amazon page up-to-date? Do they send the book out to reviewers and get reviews in places where a self-published author can't go?

Ultimately, the press works for the author, and if they aren't doing things you can't do yourself (often much more efficiently so, because you're passionate about your work), then you shouldn't sign.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Tommie Lyn said:


> There's no set up cost. There is a ProPlan fee you can opt for which insures a higher royalty percentage, but there isn't another charge unless you hire CreateSpace to do your interior and cover design.


I see quite a few authors who have used CreateSpace for print books. I wonder if you normally design the cover yourself or use their tools for cover design.

Is it possible to use the eBook covers from the signature which are jpeg files in my case.?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> Is it possible to use the eBook covers from the signature which are jpeg files in my case.?


No. You need a much larger high-resolution file. Your ebook file is probably the wrong proportional dimension, too.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> And if anyone chooses to maintain that they went with a small press on purpose, for arcane reasons of their own, I will continue to highly doubt that they are not fooling themselves. Mind you -- I am NOT blaming them (again, publishing sucks) -- but let's be open to the truth and reality. Small press is a blessing, and yes, it serves a solid undeniable purpose, but (except for very few highly technical niche books) it simply cannot offer the same level of distribution, clout, and plain opportunity as the larger houses.


You said it all. Thanks Vera.
"It is not a crime to fail;
the sin is to have a low aim."


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## flanneryohello (May 11, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> I do know what I'm talking about.


No, you have an opinion. That's it.

Believe it or not, "big publishers are nearly always better and authors who say they went with a small press on purpose are fooling themselves" is not an objective truth. I don't care how much publishing experience you have. It's utterly condescending to suggest that those of us who aspired to publish with "small press" publishers simply failed to aim high enough. I aimed for the top of the publishers who specialize in my niche, and succeeded. I know of no other publisher who could handle my books as well as mine does.

Honestly, your lack of understanding that there are many types of books that wouldn't do well with a huge publisher makes me seriously doubt that you do know what you're talking about. We don't all write what you write, nor do we all have the same goals.

Sorry, pet peeve. I can't stand it when people claim to know me and my motivations better than I know myself.


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## RuthCardello (Jul 10, 2011)

I loved this thread.  Thank you to everyone who took the time to explain various sides of publishing.  I'm a newbie to it all and the more I learn the more I see how much left there is to learn.

I took some notes.  I'm off to check out some sites.  

Thanks again!


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> I am going to elaborate on what I said, and hopefully this will make better sense in proper context.
> 
> I do know what I'm talking about.


So basically what you are saying is, I should have tried to bed Brad Pitt first instead of settling for my boyfriend? Or basically what you are saying is that you are only good enough to publish the cast-off of the Big Six...sort of like taking sloppy seconds?

There is nothing wrong with directing an author towards publishers that are the best fit for their works. I've had folks come to me with submissions that were amazing, but they weren't really a good fit with us so I directed them toward other publishers. There is nothing wrong with "aiming high" if the goal is something that is actually in line with your book. What I do take enormous offense to, however, is this hubris you are spewing that somehow it is impossible for a small press to be a good fit for an author. There is more to publishing than having a book on the shelf of WalMart. For many books, "distribution" is not the end game. This notion that authors should subject themselves to bruisings from large publishers who are never going to be a good fit for a book makes about as much sense as telling my sister "It's better to date an abusive drunk who is rich than a nice guy who is poor, because at least then you can pay the bills."

We're releasing Peter Balaskas' new short story collection in November. I published Peter's first book back in 2007. When he came to me with his short story collection, I first told him I wasn't really reading full length works at the time. Now here is a guy who HAS run his own micro press for a while and could self publish. It boiled down to he didn't want to trust the book to another publisher. He knows that Faith and I understand his work and will take care of the book. He wasn't concerned with selling a million copies. He was concerned with making sure the book was with a publisher who 'gets it' and won't ask for arbitrary changes just to grab market share. I'm not going to tell him "No, no. Go submit it to six other publishers first and get 'bruised' up." He knows his work. He knows what he wants. He knows who he TRUSTS, which is of enormous importance in this industry. Trust trumps distribution every...damn...time.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This notion that authors should subject themselves to bruisings from large publishers who are never going to be a good fit for a book makes about as much sense as telling my sister "It's better to date an abusive drunk who is rich than a nice guy who is poor, because at least then you can pay the bills."


Over. The. Line.

B.


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## Trish McCallan (Jul 16, 2011)

Julie,

This is fabulous advice. Thank you for taking the time to post it. 

Your comment about gearing you website/blog to readers, rather than writers really hit home. I published my first book about two and a half weeks ago. I've promised several writer friends who have been considering self publishing that I'd blog about sales, marketing and observations. So I posted a first weeks sales and marketing/observations essay on my blog, a week or so after I published. A few days later, I started getting reader traffic to my website, and they reached out to me through my blog--which was all about sales/marketing. 

Not a good idea, IMO. We don't want readers to feel like they are nothing but marketing numbers to us, nor do we want to bore them to death.

I'll be launching a completely different blog, under a different name, to provide the self-publishing information I promised. This blog won't be attached to my website, so I won't have to worry about readers stumbling across it if they do a search on my name. (which is how they seem to be finding me)


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

flanneryohello said:


> No, you have an opinion. That's it.
> 
> Believe it or not, "big publishers are nearly always better and authors who say they went with a small press on purpose are fooling themselves" is not an objective truth. I don't care how much publishing experience you have. It's utterly condescending to suggest that those of us who aspired to publish with "small press" publishers simply failed to aim high enough. I aimed for the top of the publishers who specialize in my niche, and succeeded. I know of no other publisher who could handle my books as well as mine does.
> 
> ...


Of course I have an opinion, just like everyone else. However, an opinion carries an amount of weight proportionate to the amount of experience backing it. As a result, some opinions will always be more factually accurate than others, based on simple logic and evidence.

Your statement "there are many types of books that wouldn't do well with a huge publisher" is filled with so many tangential assumptions that we would require several separate topic threads to discuss them all.

But -- before we even embark upon those tangents, we would first need *definitions* as to:

1) What does it mean for a book to "do well?"

2) What constitutes a "huge" publisher?

3) What are the actual *conscious* and *subconscious goals* of each of author in publishing their book? Selling copies? Making money and retiring on a tropical island, never to write again? Gaining a wide audience? Gaining fandom and adulation? Becoming an immortal classic? Making a living? etc, etc?

Now, if we actually start brainstorming these definitions, and find common ground (instead of talking past each other), it will become clear that no one here is attempting to offend or put down anyone else's choices, but to improve and enhance the choice-making process that constitutes a career journey.

This is why we are here on Kindleboards -- not only to promote our stuff but to share experiences, discover new options, and learn from each other.

I've certainly learned a lot of good useful, helpful things from so many of you here.


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## wildwitchof (Sep 2, 2010)

Thank you for keeping your cool, Vera, and restating your position in such an agreeable way.

I don't have any experience with big or small publishers, but I do hang out on KB a lot, and am grateful when conflicts are handled with grace like you showed.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So basically what you are saying is, I should have tried to bed Brad Pitt first instead of settling for my boyfriend? Or basically what you are saying is that you are only good enough to publish the cast-off of the Big Six...sort of like taking sloppy seconds?


*Yes, it is exactly what I m saying*... with the caveat that in your case "Brad Pitt" (or Glenn Close, or Denzel Washington, or George Takei) is your aspired-to ideal life partner -- which for many people he very well might be, for good reason. 

Let's face it, if we do not go out there *trying to reach for the stars*, both human and those in the distant cosmos, (unrealistic but shining goal), we will never even jump/fly/crawl/scamper high enough to make it to the top of the Empire State Building (realistic goal), much less the second story of an ordinary house (our current situation).

And as far as me publishing cast-offs of the Big Six?

Hell, yeah! *big happy grin*

They are some mighty wonderful cast-offs out there! "Sloppy seconds?" I'll take them any day!

When such a grand master as Tanith Lee gives me her monumental *classic Flat Earth series* to reprint because *no one* in the Big Six wants to do it, I say, "Yes, Ma'am, THANK YOU, MA'AM!"

And then I do the publisher Snoopy dance because I have *scored*!


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Gretchen Galway said:


> Thank you for keeping your cool, Vera, and restating your position in such an agreeable way.
> 
> I don't have any experience with big or small publishers, but I do hang out on KB a lot, and am grateful when conflicts are handled with grace like you showed.


Thanks for your kind words, Gretchen -- and the rest of you here.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *What you've done wrong.*
> You have spent too much time commiserating with other writers and not enough time looking for readers. Your blog, website, and sales pitches are all geared toward "indie writers" and use jargon the average reader doesn't know about or care about. You spend too much time promoting "indie books" and not enough time selling YOUR books to readers, readers who could care less whether or not a book is indie or trad.
> 
> *How you can fix it.*
> ...


^^Amen! Guilty as charged here. And, I'm not too proud to admit that.

I have though seen the error of my ways, as far as blogging. Sad to say, my author blog started out as mostly a "Go Team Indie!" blog, and me spouting off about it. A few months ago, I rethought the whole "theme" for lack of a better word, of my blog. Mainly because there are A TON of pro-indie blogs out there. And, the whole "pro indie" thing is not really "marketing"...it's more like just venting (at least for me). And, there are other (more private) places to vent. 

Now I focus more on blogs about my characters, I'll post poetry, or try to generate a buzz about a work in progress. the only cross-promo I do there is my "Friday Five."

All in all, whenever I experience a sales slump, I ask myself "what did I do this month as far as marketing/promotion?" Or more importantly, "What didn't I do...?"


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Your statement "there are many types of books that wouldn't do well with a huge publisher" is filled with so many tangential assumptions that we would require several separate topic threads to discuss them all.
> 
> But -- before we even embark upon those tangents, we would first need *definitions* as to:
> 
> ...





> Yes, it is exactly what I m saying... with the caveat that in your case "Brad Pitt" (or Glenn Close, or Denzel Washington, or George Takei) is your aspired-to ideal life partner -- which for many people he very well might be, for good reason.


You are packpeddling because you got called out on your hubris. You made blanket statements that essentially said authors don't know what it best for their own books and should not even consider a small press until they have been "bruised" by a large publisher. Don't *smile* and play word games now pretending you are using some arcane definition of big publisher or whatever you didn't say what we all know you said. You original message was clear: an author that "settles" for a small press is selling himself short...even if the small press was ideally suited to the type of book he was publishing. In your universe, all authors should subject themselves to rejection from big publishers EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW the publisher doesn't cater to that type of book, and should only consider a smaller press after they have been rejected by the big boys.

THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. Now you are adding caveats to try to tone down what you said, but your little caveats don't change your original statements. There is a world of difference between saying "_Authors should try to publish with the publisher that best fits their goals"_ (which I think we would all agree on) and saying "_Authors should always go to the big publishers first because authors don't really understand what their own goals are, but if the big publishers reject you settle for a small press_" (which is effectively what you said).

I'm done with that subject now that I got that out of my system.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> As to small press, I would say, try before you buy. There are many lovely small presses who do excellent jobs and have a bunch of loyal readers. There are also many small presses who send you crap contracts, don't stick to said contracts, drop off the face of the Earth ...


I have to say, this is actually how I ended up with one of my authors. He was originally suppose to publish with another publisher. I had published one of his short stories in the journal, and he asked to buy some ad space for his upcoming book. (I bit my tongue at the time, because this was sort of the first warning sign for me something was wrong since the publisher had told him he was responsible for advertising). But then the publisher fell off the map, stopped responding to his emails...you know the sad story. I ended up "adopting" him because I felt horrible about what happened and thought he was an amazing writer.

But this is one of those reasons why it is so important for people to learn about the industry so that they can make smart decisions. A lot of these fly-by-night publishers thrive on the myth that traditional publishers are anti-author or that all publishers operate like the Big Six. It is important for authors to understand what is and is not normal before signing with any publisher. There are also great sites like Preditors & Editors and Writer Beware that do a great job of weeding the bad from the good.


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## Aubrie Dionne author (Feb 10, 2011)

Great advice! Getting your books on other sites is a must!


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## Aynoit Ashor (Mar 15, 2011)

Great advice Julie. I'm going to start the week fresh and look at what _I'm _doing or might not be doing.


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

Great post!


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You are packpeddling because you got called out on your hubris. You made blanket statements that essentially said authors don't know what it best for their own books and should not even consider a small press until they have been "bruised" by a large publisher. Don't *smile* and play word games now pretending you are using some arcane definition of big publisher or whatever you didn't say what we all know you said. You original message was clear: an author that "settles" for a small press is selling himself short...even if the small press was ideally suited to the type of book he was publishing. In your universe, all authors should subject themselves to rejection from big publishers EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW the publisher doesn't cater to that type of book, and should only consider a smaller press after they have been rejected by the big boys.


You once again continue to misunderstand what I said, and ascribe to me things you think I am saying.

There is a huge difference between aiming high and beating one's head against the wall of futility. This whole tangent started because someone here said that now that they were in a certain type of publishing situation, they *will try submitting to bigger publishers*. Obviously they realized that yes, bigger publishers are an option in their situation.

I responded with the well-established industry recommendation that you should always work your way top down.

This *in no way implies* that one does not first thoroughly research their markets and submit indiscriminately and foolishly to larger publishers that do not handle your kind of material or are known to be variously crappy to authors.

On the other hand, if a large publisher does handle your kind of material, they are a fit for you. How good a fit? Depends on a great number of combined elements all of which you would have handled in your original thorough submissions research, before you make your submission decision.

But there is no way to deny that *given two equally weighted publishers* in all other respects (quality of author care, niche penetration, distribution, marketing, advance, contracts structure, editorial, etc.), the *larger more powerful publisher* with more resources is *always* a better choice. (And if you suddenly wake up and realize, "gee, I guess *now* I could be trying to submit to bigger publishers" means that you *did not do* sufficient market research in the first place and settled for a lesser option. To restate -- if there *is* a (thoroughly vetted) bigger publisher you could be submitting to, you did not complete your research.)

This is so basic, so commonsense, such a given for anyone who aspires to be (or is) a professional, that I never bothered to get into it in my original statement. Apparently I should have spelled it out. But had I done so, then we would not been having this fun discussion! *grin*

In short -- what you are demonstrating in your argument is a continued misread of my recommendation, upon which you continue to spin and elaborate with much relish (and some mustard), and attribute all kinds of basic cluelessness to me. 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. Now you are adding caveats to try to tone down what you said, but your little caveats don't change your original statements. There is a world of difference between saying "_Authors should try to publish with the publisher that best fits their goals"_ (which I think we would all agree on) and saying "_Authors should always go to the big publishers first because authors don't really understand what their own goals are, but if the big publishers reject you settle for a small press_" (which is effectively what you said).
> 
> I'm done with that subject now that I got that out of my system.


Nah, it's not what I said at all, but it's what allows you to spin your tangent.

Let me make it very basic for you:

I did *not* say:

"_Authors should always go to the big publishers first because authors don't really understand what their own goals are, but if the big publishers reject you settle for a small press_"

I *did* say:

"_Authors should always go to the big publishers first *(after making their basic research into the kind of material the publisher handles and how well they do it, and how effective they are -- an absolute given and does not need to be mentioned because this is Submissions 101).* because Authors don't really understand what their own goals are, *and equipped with that painful self-awareness, should make every effort to constantly re-evaluate their plans and courses of action and recognize that at any given point they could be doing better, and in this cutthroat industry they are the most vulnerable of all the players. Do what you can to work the market ranks top down, and then, *if the big publishers reject you settle for a small press_"

I am certainly never going to be done with this subject, because apparently it needs to be discussed until we can all benefit.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) (Jan 19, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> No. You need a much larger high-resolution file. Your ebook file is probably the wrong proportional dimension, too.


Yes, I agree and have learned their resolution is not good enough, even if you try to fix with some software. Thanks for the response, Patty. I do appreciate.


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