# Amazon does not pay royalties for books enrolled in Prime Reading!



## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

*Amazon does not pay royalties for books enrolled in Prime Reading*

Recently 3 of our titles have been picked for Amazon Prime Reading. In a warm invite they welcomed our titles for a limited period of time, but in the same breath said, we won't receive any royalties for readings over Prime, and won't see any activity about this program on the KDP reports...

They said the books will remain on sale as usual (unit sales and KU reads), but for those purchases over Prime, we won't get anything...

I wonder if it sounds OK to you. To me it does not!

If readers are subscribed to Prime and can read the books there, why can't they pay the authors their share?


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Barring this being a backdoor way into a "first in series free" situation while exclusive to Amazon or a short-term way to get some reviews on a new release, I'd say run. I expected it to pay out like KOLL/KU.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

DrLiz52 said:


> *Amazon does not pay royalties for books enrolled in Prime Reading*
> 
> Recently 3 of our titles have been picked for Amazon Prime Reading. In a warm invite they welcomed our titles for a limited period of time, but in the same breath said, we won't receive any royalties for readings over Prime, and won't see any activity about this program on the KDP reports...
> 
> ...


One does not "purchase" books through Prime Reading. It's more akin to KU, though with a better curated selection of titles.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2019)

Amazon does sometimes offer a lump sum as inducement for having a book available in Prime Reading. The amount varies and some authors are offered more than others and as you have discovered some aren't offered a payment at all. I've not heard any authors regret it, as the substantial increase in rank/visibility pays dividends with sales/reads of other books in the author's catalogue. I don't see it as any different than offering a free promo, it's a tool.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

There's no reason to run. 

Just decide if it's for you or not.

If you are willing for your title to have a 90-day free run, it's a great opportunity.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

DrLiz52 said:


> *Amazon does not pay royalties for books enrolled in Prime Reading*
> 
> Recently 3 of our titles have been picked for Amazon Prime Reading. In a warm invite they welcomed our titles for a limited period of time, but in the same breath said, we won't receive any royalties for readings over Prime, and won't see any activity about this program on the KDP reports...
> 
> ...


They say they'll showcase your books, but won't let you earn anything from them? I'd tell them to go jump in a lake. The whole point of advertising is to make money from it. This is like getting a Bookbub with zero sell-through. Why does Amazon want your books but doesn't want to pay you for it? No, no, a thousand times no. If they think your books are good enough to draw in readers, they need to pay you for it. This is the point at which all writers need to face a cold, hard fact. You're not writing for free. Amazon is exploiting you. Don't do it.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Okay, well, let's back up. If your book is picked up for Prime Reading, then yes, you do not get paid if the book is read through the program. Rank is affected, although I'm not sure if each Prime read has the same effect as a KU borrow - I assume it would, however. 

So this is what you get out of it:

1 - the rank benefits of getting read through the program. My first time in Prime it stayed under 1k in the store - so dozens of Prime downloads a day. Increased rank means increased visibility.
2 - both times I've been asked I've been given a monetary incentive to join. As per the agreement to join, I'm not supposed to divulge how much it was . . . but I was happy with the amount. 
3 - getting read by a lot of people. If your book is part of a series, you'll see a spike in sales / borrows of the other books.  

I'm curious why you think the program is unfair. I assume that almost all the people who pick up my book through Prime wouldn't have found it otherwise. I consider it an excellent promotion.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

AlecHutson said:


> I'm curious why you think the program is unfair. I assume that almost all the people who pick up my book through Prime wouldn't have found it otherwise. I consider it an excellent promotion.


As a reader, I will note that, for me, KU is unmanageable. There's too much there. No way I'm going searching through it to see if I can find one or two books I might like AND seem to have bee professionally prepared for publishing. So I'm no longer a subscriber though I have access to the catalog via the Kindle Owners Lending Library.

I will, however, periodically browse the Prime Reading catalog. There are fewer books AND I'm much more likely to find something there that appeals _and_ that I have confidence is reasonably well written, edited, and formatted.


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## Wunder (Sep 2, 2017)

My book just went through the Prime Reading thing. It's 90 days wrapped up last week, I think. Now, while they did offer me monetary compensation, it wasn't an unbelievable amount. The thing that makes Prime Reading a great tool is that it opens your series up to a new sect of readers who wouldn't otherwise find it. The ranking for my book (the first in a long series) shot up, and with any luck, it'll get me at least a few readers who continue with the series. 

I had a good experience and would definitely do it again if the offer was made. That's just my two cents though.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> As a reader, I will note that, for me, KU is unmanageable. There's too much there. No way I'm going searching through it to see if I can find one or two books I might like AND seem to have bee professionally prepared for publishing. So I'm no longer a subscriber though I have access to the catalog via the Kindle Owners Lending Library.
> 
> I will, however, periodically browse the Prime Reading catalog. There are fewer books AND I'm much more likely to find something there that appeals _and_ that I have confidence is reasonably well written, edited, and formatted.


Just because it's apparently my week on KBoards to come across topics I just talked about in a blog post, this one talks a lot about Prime Reading vs. KU.

https://genedoucette.me/2019/03/what-if-amazon-killed-kindle-unlimited/


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> The whole point of advertising is to make money from it. This is like getting a Bookbub with zero sell-through.


Why do you think there will be no sell-though?

This is the same as doing a free run, only for 90 days, and in some cases they pay a flat fee. They paid me 200 Euro for one of my German books, and I saw a moderate increase in sales from the sell-through. Ended up being a win-win.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

The last time i got one of these i was offered 5 figures to have mine in but i had received so many of these without an offer of money that i overlooked the one that was offering money lol.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> They say they'll showcase your books, but won't let you earn anything from them? I'd tell them to go jump in a lake. The whole point of advertising is to make money from it. This is like getting a Bookbub with zero sell-through. Why does Amazon want your books but doesn't want to pay you for it? No, no, a thousand times no. If they think your books are good enough to draw in readers, they need to pay you for it. This is the point at which all writers need to face a cold, hard fact. You're not writing for free. Amazon is exploiting you. Don't do it.


Well, no, it's like getting a BookBub for free, with a risk that the Prime Reads will cannibalize your sales.

You're still paid normally for non Prime Reads borrows/sales.

It might not be worth it to you. It might. I was happy with my Prime Reads run way back in 2016. It gave me a small boost in sellthrough with no loss of "normal" royalties/borrows. I was also paid a lump sum.

I would happily take another US Prime Reads deal if Amazon offered me one. I would even do it without a lump sum if I thought it was worth the increased visibility. (I'd need five-figures to put my bestseller into Prime Reads, but one of my only okay selling first in series? Why not get the extra visibility?)


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## AmesburyArcher (Jan 16, 2017)

I've been offered Prime Reading  twice in the UK and there was monetary compensation. I'd have gone for it anyway, as it did make that book much more visible as well as the others in the series.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

It's important that people realize that you don't lose all royalties. If people pick up your book in Prime Reading, they don't pay. If people not in PR read your book, they still pay (and you get your royalties). If someone in KU borrows your book through PR, you still get page reads. It's not as if you don't get money and the huge boost on rank is like free advertising. If those who pick up a book in PR like it, they're more likely to peruse your backlist. It's currently my favorite promotion -- and that includes BookBub, which has really lost its luster -- but I think almost all of my series have cycled in and out at this point. If I get the offer on a new series, with or without an upfront fee, I will jump at the chance to have a book in the program. It's been very good to me.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

I am still against a program in which certain authors get paid for being in it, and others get nothing. You're being treated like a second-class citizen. If _they_ think you're good enough to be in there, _they ought to offer you something_.

Look, what would happen if _every_ author who they offered zero money to refused to deal? Amazon would have to start offering money to those authors. The fact that they're fishing around at all indicates Amazon isn't happy with Prime Reading the way it is. Standing up against this abusive practice is part of the power of collective bargaining.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> It's currently my favorite promotion -- and that includes BookBub, which has really lost its luster -- but I think almost all of my series have cycled in and out at this point. If I get the offer on a new series, with or without an upfront fee, I will jump at the chance to have a book in the program. It's been very good to me.


Same here. I say yes to every invitation.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> I am still against a program in which certain authors get paid for being in it, and others get nothing. You're being treated like a second-class citizen. If _they_ think you're good enough to be in there, _they ought to offer you something_.
> 
> Look, what would happen if _every_ author who they offered zero money to refused to deal? Amazon would have to start offering money to those authors. The fact that they're fishing around at all indicates Amazon isn't happy with Prime Reading the way it is. Standing up against this abusive practice is part of the power of collective bargaining.


How are they fishing around? Also, we're not employees. We're content providers. Amazon isn't our boss.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> How are they fishing around? Also, we're not employees. We're content providers. Amazon isn't our boss.


If they're looking for new authors they can put in Prime Reading, that's what I call fishing around. Yes, you are not an employee. But look at it this way, if Freelancer A is being offers thousands of dollars for a job, and Freelancer B is being offered nothing for the same job, and there is no real difference in quality between their work, then that's what I call being exploited.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> If they're looking for new authors they can put in Prime Reading, that's what I call fishing around. Yes, you are not an employee. But look at it this way, if Freelancer A is being offers thousands of dollars for a job, and Freelancer B is being offered nothing for the same job, and there is no real difference in quality between their work, then that's what I call being exploited.


You're only in Prime Reading for a few months. If they didn't ask new authors, they would have no content for PR. If they had the same 1,000 books forever, people would run out of things they were interested in sampling pretty quickly. Books cycle in and out. They're not fishing. They're refreshing content. Prime Reading is meant to be a loss leader ... and it works. I've had numerous readers say they discovered me in Prime Reading and went on to buy my other books.
As for the money, they offered much more the first few times they did it. Payouts have dropped (by a long shot) and they will probably go away for everybody at a certain point. If you feel exploited, you certainly shouldn't participate. I know plenty of people who would jump at the chance to list a book for free because it helps with the bottom line regardless, though. I don't think making money feels exploitive to most people.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> If they didn't ask new authors, they would have no content for PR. If they had the same 1,000 books forever, people would run out of things they were interested in sampling pretty quickly.


That's my point. Authors have the leverage here. Amazon is asking authors to give up potential royalties they could make in the regular KU program. At the very least, Amazon ought to offer you a sum that is equal to what you would be losing over the same time period.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> That's my point. Authors have the leverage here. Amazon is asking authors to give up potential royalties they could make in the regular KU program. At the very least, Amazon ought to offer you a sum that is equal to what you would be losing over the same time period.


So, with that in mind, when you gain (which most of the people who participate do -- not all, but most as far as I can tell), should we have to pay Amazon? You're not losing anything being in PR because the people borrowing in that program only took a chance on your books because they could read them for free and then make up their own minds.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> So, with that in mind, when you gain (which most of the people who participate do -- not all, but most as far as I can tell), should we have to pay Amazon? You're not losing anything being in PR because the people borrowing in that program only took a chance on your books because they could read them for free and then make up their own minds.


I'm sure where you got the part about us paying Amazon. I haven't mentioned anything about that. The whole gist of my argument is that Amazon ought to be paying us.

As for the part about not losing anything by being in PR because people still have to take a chance on reading you, that's the same thing that happens in the regular KU problem. Except that you get paid for it.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> I'm sure where you got the part about us paying Amazon. I haven't mentioned anything about that. The whole gist of my argument is that Amazon ought to be paying us.
> 
> As for the part about not losing anything by being in PR because people still have to take a chance on reading you, that's the same thing that happens in the regular KU problem. Except that you get paid for it.


You get paid in PR, too. You still get your regular royalties, which there are more of because you have increased visibility in the store. You still get your KU reads even if someone borrows the book in PR vs. KU and they pay for the program. Since you have better visibility, you get more of them. Thanks to the visibility boost, you get more eyes on your work, which increases sell through to other books.
You're the one that said Amazon should pay for the royalties lost. I'm not saying some people don't go down in money when in PR, but the vast majority I've come across have made a lot. So, if Amazon has to pay for monies lost (which isn't really a thing in this instance), it would stand to reason we would have to pay for monies gained, right? You can't have one without the other.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Prime is excellent. Just make sure your book has a page with links to your list signup and your other titles and/or your website. List signup is vital. As Amanda says, you'll get excellent PR , make sure it doesn't evaporate into thin air.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

It is not easy to make a call in which the vast majority of authors in Prime Reading have not reported their financial gains or loses.  There really needs to be a poll about this.  If I had to estimate, I'd say that if Amazon asked you to put 3 books in Prime, and you have a total of 6 books out, you could be losing potentially 50% of your earnings.  Now, if you have 20, you may be in a position to make money.  I wouldn't advise it if you have very few books.

One concern I have is that Amazon has already looked all your titles and decided from their internal data which would be the most likely to draw in readers and be read through completely.  If those are the titles Amazon wants, and you, from your own data, don't see a lot sell-through to the remaining titles, it does look like you're not going to get much sell-through in Prime Reading.  Amazon will have already cherry-picked the best of your work, which they won't be paying you for.  

Another problem is, can you take the loss in earnings?  Writers have bills to pay, just like anyone else.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> It is not easy to make a call in which the vast majority of authors in Prime Reading have not reported their financial gains or loses. There really needs to be a poll about this. If I had to estimate, I'd say that if Amazon asked you to put 3 books in Prime, and you have a total of 6 books out, you could be losing potentially 50% of your earnings. Now, if you have 20, you may be in a position to make money. I wouldn't advise it if you have very few books.
> 
> One concern I have is that Amazon has already looked all your titles and decided from their internal data which would be the most likely to draw in readers and be read through completely. If those are the titles Amazon wants, and you, from your own data, don't see a lot sell-through to the remaining titles, it does look like you're not going to get much sell-through in Prime Reading. Amazon will have already cherry-picked the best of your work, which they won't be paying you for.
> 
> Another problem is, can you take the loss in earnings? Writers have bills to pay, just like anyone else.


That's not how it works. They ask for one book in a series (usually the first, although they did ask for the second once and then message to say they made an error and asked for the first). You are not putting three books in a series. They want a large sampling. It's highly curated.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Until we have actual facts and figures from people who think they benefited vs. those who didn't, the subject will forever remain unsolvable.  The next person who wants to know the answer on KB can start by putting up a poll.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Tilly said:


> Amazon does sometimes offer a lump sum as inducement for having a book available in Prime Reading. The amount varies and some authors are offered more than others and as you have discovered some aren't offered a payment at all. I've not heard any authors regret it, as the substantial increase in rank/visibility pays dividends with sales/reads of other books in the author's catalogue. I don't see it as any different than offering a free promo, it's a tool.


This. ^^^


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Avis Black said:


> Until we have actual facts and figures from people who think they benefited vs. those who didn't, the subject will forever remain unsolvable. The next person who wants to know the answer on KB can start by putting up a poll.


Not to me. I'm in plenty of groups where people put up numbers from PR and out of about 150 people, I think two said they had a bad experience. I've been in about 15-20 times including the various territories. I maintain that PR is essentially the best marketing out there right now for me, and I say that as someone who had several BookBubs last year. PR did way more than BB.


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## &quot;Serious&quot; ... but not really (Aug 14, 2017)

GeneDoucette said:


> Just because it's apparently my week on KBoards to come across topics I just talked about in a blog post, this one talks a lot about Prime Reading vs. KU.
> 
> https://genedoucette.me/2019/03/what-if-amazon-killed-kindle-unlimited/


I read your blog Gene. Good points. Well said and plenty of food for thought.

AMS I suspect also adds to the fund for Select somehow. KU living or dying is no big deal to me - I suspect it lives in some small fashion if they change it.

I am a Prime reader and I get books from the Top 100 Free too. There are like 2000+ prime books now over the 50 or so "New and Notable" coming in quite often. My TBR is full for free of pretty good stuff. I want the best I can get for free. But I pay through Prime at $10 a month. Their Prime movies and TV way makes up the difference and add in free shipping on top of that.

So is Amazon experimenting with Prime to get rid of KU or change things? The OP being approached might suggest something: If they see you are a better writer, will you migrate a book to Prime for the visibility for free on the hope of the rest of your line-up?

Amazon killed quite a few other experimental projects it started a few years ago. Why I am not sure, but if the pain to manage is greater than the gain, expect things to change. And I do see a couple Indie author's now in Prime that wrote well it appears from Write On. I did see Amada Lee in prime too.

Indies could be trying to promote their books at a 25c price soon on Amazon. Supply goes up ... price comes down ... isn't that what they teach? KU readers will get wise and migrate to Prime for better books and a better deal. Why go through hundreds of books a month to get 1 that is readable for $10 a month in KU? When Prime is pretty fair no matter what you pick ... and they are screened a ton better making them better.

As to Indie authors, this better be a hobby for you! The sheer volume of books now guarantees near 0% visibility for the new guy, one sell a week kind of thing if that. You think it is hard to make money now, just wait is my guess, it gets worse. Amazon is ahead of the curve and changes fast I am sure. So I suspect Gene is right - KU and "Select" methods may be in for a change.

It may become Indie's would write for free on Amazon, kind of, until their work and "Select" status allowed their work to bobble up into the Top 100 (no scamming because there is no money in it. AMS is still in play too - how else can you be visible? But likely the $0 promo goes on for a longer period and you still support that with AMS support.

This is sort of like "Write On" and "Kindle Scout" combined but wrapped up into KU and "Select" program now ... longer play out and the winner gets a prime deal and Amazon picks the winner from what readers like in the KU program.  ... good stuff huh?

You actually spend money to reach the top - which means the $0 promo ads (which is a "Select" option needs to be longer and Amazon allows readers to better be able to search through that. For $2 a month maybe (KU is being offered at 99c for 3 months now to get you in, why? Experiment or is KU dying?)

There are good Indie books. But for every one, there is now hundreds that are not. Amazon needs the NOT crowd until they improve and standout to get a deal. You basically write for fun and it is going to cost you and Amazon hopes you can develop your craft.

Then an Amazon editor can approach the author with a Prime deal if they now bobble up into the top 100 and Amazon likes the author's stats and their story; the Prime deal may only be a better visibility deal . It seems to be heading that way ATM. But they could pony up some money too, not much, but some.

Now that would be my hope as a reader. Go wide if you want to Indies. But like Gene says, if Amazon changes KU and "Select" methods a lot, the swamp will try and drain into the wide arena as the Prime Amazon arena is real picky and getting bigger, and KU and "Select" is a swamp. Lots of authors here say wide is a bust and come back to "Select" too in hopes.

JMHO and my .02


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> That's my point. Authors have the leverage here. Amazon is asking authors to give up potential royalties they could make in the regular KU program. At the very least, Amazon ought to offer you a sum that is equal to what you would be losing over the same time period.


You're making a rather large assumption that the people browsing Prime reading would have otherwise found your book and paid for it. I consider those folks who trawl for free books through things like Prime a reading segment I rarely reach, as I don't otherwise offer a free book.

Also, just to make sure, you do realize that books in Prime still get their KU reads for readers who download them through KU? If your book is part of a series, then likely you'll see an increase in sales / reads of later books as readers finish the Prime offering.

In regards to compensation . . . I have no idea what other authors get, and it seems to vary wildly. My first book is currently in Prime for its second go-round. The first time I was offered mid 4-figures. This time it was mid-3. The difference is that this time I have a sequel, so maybe if a book is standalone and won't lead into other books they offer more. Or they've simply dropped the payment amount in the last 18 months, as the other benefits still make the program enticing. In any case, I really like the promotion, and I'm grateful to be included.


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

.

How many readers are active in this Prime program? They are likely a tighter demographic of readers than the general population out there. They are thus more likely to read through the rest of your series/catalog. Even if not right away, after the run they may see your title and remember the cover just like advertisers hope you'll see a commercial on television or an advertisement in a magazine.

If you were paying for a Bookbub run to give a title away, what would be the value placed on that marketing cost? How much might you willingly pay to reach that demographic?

Now the issue with paying some authors and not others is kind of poor form though ... unless they paid at the beginning to get authors interested in participating where they are phasing that out as more authors are involved while the comparison was an early participant against a recent participant.
.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

AlecHutson said:


> You're making a rather large assumption that the people browsing Prime reading would have otherwise found your book and paid for it. I consider those folks who trawl for free books through things like Prime a reading segment I rarely reach, as I don't otherwise offer a free book.


I may not have found a book if it wasn't in Prime Reading. But if borrow it through that program, and like it, I may very well pay for later entries in the series.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I may not have found a book if it wasn't in Prime Reading. But if borrow it through that program, and like it, I may very well pay for later entries in the series.


Yes, that's what I would assume many readers do. Try the first for free, and open the wallet if it's enjoyable.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

This is the same argument in different terms--it boils down to "should you ever give away a book 1 for free." 

Prime is merely another route to give away a book for free.

The factual argument has been generally settled (for the majority of authors who have series): free works.

Now we have the specific issues of 1) whether a Prime free run works too, 2) whether actually getting paid for a free run makes it even better.

Each author much choose on their own. That's pretty much it.


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## Nev (Nov 9, 2017)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> You get paid in PR, too. You still get your regular royalties, which there are more of because you have increased visibility in the store. You still get your KU reads even if someone borrows the book in PR vs. KU and they pay for the program. Since you have better visibility, you get more of them. Thanks to the visibility boost, you get more eyes on your work, which increases sell through to other books.
> You're the one that said Amazon should pay for the royalties lost. I'm not saying some people don't go down in money when in PR, but the vast majority I've come across have made a lot. So, if Amazon has to pay for monies lost (which isn't really a thing in this instance), it would stand to reason we would have to pay for monies gained, right? You can't have one without the other.


I have book 1 of my first series in PR right now (first time I've been offered entry into PR). I was offered a healthy 4 figure monetary incentive, so not as high as others mentioned in other post comments here, but the figure was roughly equal to the most recent 3 months worth of royalties for the book in question. The way I looked at it...if the worst happened and my sales cratered, I'd end up in about the same place, royalty-wise. But there was an additional factor that convinced me to try it.

When I looked at the books enrolled in PR in my sub-genres at the time I received the promotion invitation, most were ranked in the top 10 of my sub-genres, a lot in the top 5. I don't know about most folks, but I'll take 90 days of top 10 sub-genre visibility any day. I've had a really successful BB and a few KDD but the sales rank love from these lasted only a week or so.

As to the outcome? My book's been in for 10 days, so a lot of time left to go that might change my ultimate perception...but I'm pleased so far. Overall Kindle store rank has hovered between 500-600 since about the third day, the three sub-genre ranks for the book have ranged between 3-8 since day three as well. Daily sales of book 2 in the series have doubled from pre-PR. KU reads don't seem affected one way or another. Overall sales of book 1 have gone up about 30% (I assume because of the sales ranking boost. I haven't altered my promotion strategy).

I might feel differently at the end of my 90-day run, but it seems a reasonable risk/reward opportunity for an author looking to boost visibility and gain traction with new readers.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Avis Black said:


> I am still against a program in which certain authors get paid for being in it, and others get nothing. You're being treated like a second-class citizen. If _they_ think you're good enough to be in there, _they ought to offer you something_.
> 
> Look, what would happen if _every_ author who they offered zero money to refused to deal? Amazon would have to start offering money to those authors. The fact that they're fishing around at all indicates Amazon isn't happy with Prime Reading the way it is. Standing up against this abusive practice is part of the power of collective bargaining.


I totally agree, while this promotion can still be beneficial in terms of visibility etc., it's dishonest to offer writer X a sum, while writer Y if offered a zero. If the book was good enough to be picked for Prime, then why not have one policy for all writers who were selected? Either pay all (better option), or pay no one (writers probably won't accept).

*Totally awkward approach/ dishonest, which does not make sense:*

1. They pick a great book and offer the writer nothing, while they sell it for profit on Prime.
2. They pick another great book by another writer, and offer the writer a sum for selling on Prime for profit.
3. They ask writers to stay confidential about their *discriminating proposals* (1 and 2 above are the reason why...)


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> I totally agree, while this promotion can still be beneficial in terms of visibility etc., it's dishonest to offer writer X a sum, while writer Y if offered a zero. If the book was good enough to be picked for Prime, then why not have one policy for all writers who were selected? Either pay all (better option), or pay no one (writers probably won't accept).
> 
> *Totally awkward approach/ dishonest, which does not make sense:*
> 
> ...


What about it is dishonest? They don't claim they're offering other authors the same amount.

If you want to say no or yes to Prime Reads on principle, go for it. But most people are better off with pragmatism. If you think you'll make more in Prime Reads vs out of Prime Reads (including the flat fee you're offered), then do it. If not, don't do it.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

When I make a business decision, as long as it's not immoral or unethical, I try to evaluate it simply on its merits, without too much emotion.

I try to decide: will this make me money and/or advance my business interests?

When I was offered a deal, I took it because I saw upside with little or no downside. 

That's it. 

QED.

Each author needs to decide for themselves each time they're offered an opportunity.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Crystal_ said:


> What about it is dishonest? They don't claim they're offering other authors the same amount.
> 
> If you want to say no or yes to Prime Reads on principle, go for it. But most people are better off with pragmatism. If you think you'll make more in Prime Reads vs out of Prime Reads (including the flat fee you're offered), then do it. If not, don't do it.


*The dishonest parts:*
1. Amazon does not have the same policy for writers on the Amazon Prime program. While some authors get paid for participating, others do not. At the same time Amazon keep selling these zero paid authors' books, and the authors get nothing from the Prime sales.

2. The fact that they want writers to keep quite about the details of the Prime program, their offers and their terms...

3. It's up to the writers to decide if they want this discriminating approach to be applied to them.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> *The dishonest parts:*


You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means..

Amazon is not being dishonest, what it is doing is making a business decision. I suspect those offered larger amounts are earning more from reads and therefore need a bigger enticement to put a book in Prime. If you are offered less than others, then that title is probably earning less in reads that others. (I have no idea how true that is, but that is the type of business decision I would use when making offers). Besides, nowhere does it say every author gets X amount for a Prime offer.

Also, an NDA, or asking people not to disclose the terms of an agreement, is a *standard business practice*. It is not dishonest, but again you seem to be confusing business practice with what your consider "dishonesty".

As others have said, if you don't like the offer, say no. I'm not sure why you are getting so upset about it? Or are you offended that your title didn't elicit a monetary offer?


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Tilly said:


> I'm not sure why you are getting so upset about it? Or are you offended that your title didn't elicit a monetary offer?


To me, dishonest is behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy / misleading way, and I don't think that in business other morality standards should apply...

About NDA - Keeping silent about Prime terms is not an NDA!

I think that writers should always be able to earn on their books when Amazon sells them...
And I don't think that offering author x to sell for profit, and author y nothing-- is fair in business as well, especially when the Zons keep earning on those books.


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## Harry J Langley (Jul 27, 2018)

DrLiz52 said:


> To me, dishonest is behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy / misleading way, and I don't think that in business other morality standards should apply...
> 
> About NDA - Keeping silent about Prime terms is not an NDA!
> 
> ...


Business isn't fair, never will be and dismissing that notion sooner than later will probably do you good in the long run.

As it's already been said - the fact that some Authors are paid for their participation and some not has surely got to just come down to a common sense business decision? They know exactly what you're earning from that title and the potential "loss" of making it free for 90 days in PR. Asking Amanda to enter a book and say someone like myself, who is just starting out, is an entirely different proposition and I would never consider our terms to be the same. Perhaps it's cold but it's not dishonest, it's just business.

Additionally - If the terms of the contract specify it then it is an NDA, no two ways about it.

I'm new to all this but I do echo with what's already been said about this being a free promo to an audience that may otherwise have never seen your book, if there's traction wouldn't this manifest as sell through on other books and compensate the potential loss? The fact PR would still affect rankings would be enough to get my stamp of approval! Decent exposure, something growing more and more difficult to attain if this board is anything to go off, is worth more than cash for 90 days.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I feel like there still might be some confusion.

I'm a reader and Amazon prime member: If I get a book via Prime Reading, I have _*NOT*_ bought it. I have borrowed it. Technically, I guess, I can keep it indefinitely, but I can only have 10 such books _borrowed_ at a time. If I find an 11th I want, I need to give back one of the first 10. If I REALLY REALLY want to have 24/7 access to that book immediately and quickly, I can BUY it at the going price. And the author will get paid when I do. If I read it while I have it borrowed, I assume they'll get paid as well.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there are different contracts for different authors who are invited to the program. I'm pretty sure that James Patterson doesn't get the same contract at his publisher as a debut author -- and I wouldn't expect any of them to share any of those details. Not my business.

Of course, I'm not an author, so maybe my perspective is different. But it does seem that, if you get an offer and you don't like it, you say, "no thank, you". (And when sign for a comparable amount with a rival team and you come back to the ballpark you'd been playing at for 6 years, don't be surprised you get booed. )


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I feel like there still might be some confusion.
> 
> I'm a reader and Amazon prime member: If I get a book via Prime Reading, I have _*NOT*_ bought it. I have borrowed it. Technically, I guess, I can keep it indefinitely, but I can only have 10 such books _borrowed_ at a time. If I find an 11th I want, I need to give back one of the first 10. If I REALLY REALLY want to have 24/7 access to that book immediately and quickly, I can BUY it at the going price. And the author will get paid when I do. If I read it while I have it borrowed, I assume they'll get paid as well.
> 
> ...


Amazon is paid by readers who join Prime for a fixed fee to be able to borrow 10 books.

For these borrowed 10 books, author X is paid a zero, whereas author Y is paid 5 cents, author Z is paid 10 cents, and so on... Different pay for different author.

I don't think that paying zero can be fair, no matter how you look at it. It could be a cent for a borrow or two, but something must be paid when amazon profit via Prime. Paying 0 is no business.

It's like going out to the theater and finding out that your ticket (same seat) would be $100 more expensive than that of your neighbor, just because your neighbor happens to know Jeff.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> I don't think that paying zero can be fair, no matter how you look at it. It could be a cent for a borrow or two, but something must be paid when amazon profit via Prime. Paying 0 is no business.


Whether you think it is fair or not, is irrelevant. It's Amazon business practice to vary the amount offered, as I said before, top selling authors are offered a greater incentive to place their books in Prime Reads. Paying nothing is a valid business decision, many authors will take that offer because it makes them money with the increased visibility and sell through (two factors you are either ignoring or failing to grasp).

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is? Stamping your foot and whining_ it's not fair _ won't make Amazon suddenly change their mind and offer you a large sum to put your title in Prime Reads. If you don't like it, reject the offer. If you think your title deserves $x payout, make a counter offer. Or advertise your title, sell more books and make it more attractive to Amazon so they increase their offer.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

I'm still confused by the "it's dishonest" and "it's not fair," arguments. Is it dishonest for a Trade publisher to offer a $25,000 royalty to author A and only $10,000 to author B, or reject author B's book altogether? Is it unfair? Maybe, but the publisher has skin in the game, the author doesn't. When you pay the bills, you get to set the rules.

I'm going to guess that Google and Amazon are the Kings of algorithms. And, Amazon has all the sales data to arrive at an offering price they have set that is probably designed to hook the most Prime titles. If you don't want the offer. Pass.

I'm happy with Amazon, and the Prime offering. There's no way I could afford the exposure it provides.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Theres a fundamental misconception with the OP and some others: the idea that Amazon is paying the author nothing, even when offering a Prime run with no money. 

The exposure itself is almost always worth money. The amount varies by what book it is, and what the rest of the series looks like and so on, but it is, at the end of the day, a form of payment.

Let's say for the sake of simplicity that a Prime run got the same results as a BookBub promo that costs $1000. Then, the Prime run would be worth approximately the same as the BB, to wit: $1000.

Or, if it's calculable, it's worth whatever it puts in the author's pocket over the next months or years. 

This idea that it's paying the author nothing is false. The payment is simply not made in money.

If a TV station offered you a free commercial spot, that would be a form of payment to you, that author, presuming you can convert that free advertising into sales. That's what Amazon is doing: offering you free advertising, It's up to you, the author, to decide whether it's in your best interest. "Fairness" is purely in the mind of the author choosing. It's not absolute, so continuing to screech "unfair" is disingenuous, bordering on dishonest. Claiming it's unfair is prescriptive and disrespectful to every author who chose to do it--as if these authors weren't intelligent or mature enough to make their own choices.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

DrLiz52 said:


> Amazon is paid by readers who join Prime for a fixed fee to be able to borrow 10 books.
> 
> For these borrowed 10 books, author X is paid a zero, whereas author Y is paid 5 cents, author Z is paid 10 cents, and so on... Different pay for different author.
> 
> ...


That's not how it works. The authors that are paid receive a flat fee, not an amount per book. And they still earn regular sales and KU pages read. If someone has prime and KU, it is treated like a KU read. The main benefit is the ranking boost and visibility that then generates more sales and page reads.

To those who think it's a bad deal--simple solution--if invited to participate, decline.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Beachstories said:


> That's not how it works. The authors that are paid receive a flat fee, not an amount per book. And they still earn regular sales and KU pages read. If someone has prime and KU, it is treated like a KU read. The main benefit is the ranking boost and visibility that then generates more sales and page reads.
> 
> To those who think it's a bad deal--simple solution--if invited to participate, decline.


Indeed, writers who accept the Prime invite receive a flat fee, not an amount per book. But problem is that other writers are offered a big zero fee...

Now, at the end of the Prime membership period, this flat fee can be dived into the amount of sold books to see how much each book sale had yielded... For author who were offered a zero fee, no profit existed per each Amazon sale, and that sucks. And yes, we refused this deal and don't regret it!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

DrLiz52 said:


> Indeed, writers who accept the Prime invite receive a flat fee, not an amount per book. But problem is that other writers are offered a big zero fee...
> 
> Now, at the end of the Prime membership period, this flat fee can be dived into the amount of sold books to see how much each book sale had yielded... For author who were offered a zero fee, no profit existed per each Amazon sale, and that sucks. And yes, we refused this deal and don't regret it!


I'm still sensing some confusion.

Books that are enrolled in Prime Reading may be borrowed by Prime customers through the program. I suspect 'royalties' for such borrows are paid based on page reads as they are when a book is in KU.

Books that are enrolled in the Prime Reading program are still for sale so customers can go ahead and BUY them if they want to. Sales royalties are most likely paid the usual way.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Ann is too kind, most days.

I'm starting to think this is a Dunning-Kruger situation...


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## vagabond.voyager (Jul 24, 2018)

Ann in Arlington said:


> As a reader, I will note that, for me, KU is unmanageable. There's too much there. No way I'm going searching through it to see if I can find one or two books I might like AND seem to have bee professionally prepared for publishing. So I'm no longer a subscriber though I have access to the catalog via the Kindle Owners Lending Library.
> 
> I will, however, periodically browse the Prime Reading catalog. There are fewer books AND I'm much more likely to find something there that appeals _and_ that I have confidence is reasonably well written, edited, and formatted.


I realise that this is an old post, but a new thread for me. Why don't you sort KU by review ratings? The better books - as elsewhere - get much higher reviews. I select my genre, then sort by customer review. I find a lot that is worth reading (plus a small amount of dross).


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

vagabond.voyager said:


> I realise that this is an old post, but a new thread for me. Why don't you sort KU by review ratings? The better books - as elsewhere - get much higher reviews. I select my genre, then sort by customer review. I find a lot that is worth reading (plus a small amount of dross).


I suppose if I had a problem finding stuff I want to read I could try that. But, as it is, I have plenty in my reading queue, and more added regularly as I get recommendations from sources I know and consider reliable.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I think there was a different system for Prime reading before they came up with Kindle Unlimited. In that system, a Prime member could borrow any book they wanted with their subscription and the author got paid for that borrow. It was something like $1.30. I received some payments like that back then. In the report it was recorded as KOLL - Kindle Owners' Lending Library.

Now, where I am going with this is that on the reports, under the royalties, the page reads bit still says KU/KOLL. Does that not mean that an author of a book in Prime still gets page reads? Seems to me that it should.

Of course, Amazon would not refer to this remuneration as royalties, because it's not; it's page reads.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Doglover said:


> I think there was a different system for Prime reading before they came up with Kindle Unlimited. In that system, a Prime member could borrow any book they wanted with their subscription and the author got paid for that borrow. It was something like $1.30. I received some payments like that back then. In the report it was recorded as KOLL - Kindle Owners' Lending Library.
> 
> Now, where I am going with this is that on the reports, under the royalties, the page reads bit still says KU/KOLL. Does that not mean that an author of a book in Prime still gets page reads? Seems to me that it should.
> 
> Of course, Amazon would not refer to this remuneration as royalties, because it's not; it's page reads.


Nope, we were told we won't be paid anything form book borrowed via Prime, which means that pages read through KU lending library won't count or yield anything to us authors. Problem is, when writers are offered zero to participate, only Amazon profits from their books' borrows via Prime.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> Nope, we were told we won't be paid anything form book borrowed via Prime, which means that pages read through KU lending library won't count or yield anything to us authors. Problem is, when writers are offered zero to participate, only Amazon profits from their books' borrows via Prime.


As far as I know, KU and Prime are two entirely different things. If someone borrows the book through Prime, you won't get paid a royalty for that, but you will get paid for all the books borrowed through KU.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

ShayneRutherford said:


> As far as I know, KU and Prime are two entirely different things. If someone borrows the book through Prime, you won't get paid a royalty for that, but you will get paid for all the books borrowed through KU.


If the book is borrowed via Prime, no payment was offered, which means that when a Prime book lending happens, we get nothing, and this same borrow (of Prime) will not be registered or counted for KU reads.

KU reads will be counted, only if readers lend the book directly via Kindle Unlimited (not via Prime), as you rightly mentioned, they are separate platforms.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> As far as I know, KU and Prime are two entirely different things. If someone borrows the book through Prime, you won't get paid a royalty for that, but you will get paid for all the books borrowed through KU.


Prime members get one borrow a month with operates under normal Select terms.

They also have access to "Prime Reads." Authors are not paid anything for a read through Prime Reads, though they are typically offered a flat fee for the duration of the program. Some are offered nothing. Some are offered four or five figures.

Is that fair? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Amazon is never going to be fair.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

ShayneRutherford said:


> As far as I know, KU and Prime are two entirely different things. If someone borrows the book through Prime, you won't get paid a royalty for that, but you will get paid for all the books borrowed through KU.


If the person has a KU account it doesn't matter. There is no reading it in Prime or KU for that person. You get the reads through KU no matter what because there's no distinction.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> If the person has a KU account it doesn't matter. There is no reading it in Prime or KU for that person. You get the reads through KU no matter what because there's no distinction.


Nice! That's good to know, thank you.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Crystal_ said:


> Prime members get one borrow a month with operates under normal Select terms.
> 
> They also have access to "Prime Reads." Authors are not paid anything for a read through Prime Reads, though they are typically offered a flat fee for the duration of the program. Some are offered nothing. Some are offered four or five figures.
> 
> Is that fair? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn't matter. Amazon is never going to be fair.


Conflating a couple different programs.

Kindle Unlimited (KU): a paid lending service. HUGE catalog. Readers pay $10 a month. Can have up to 10 titles borrowed at a time and can keep 'em as long as you want.

Prime Reading: a benefit of Prime membership, which is currently $110 a year or so. It's not the ONLY benefit of Prime membership so it's hard to say exactly what it costs the customer. Catalog is a curated subset of KU. A Prime customer can borrow up to 10 titles at a time and can keep 'em as long as they want, just like with KU.

Kindle Owners Lending Libray (KOLL): a free service for Kindle/Fire owners. Doesn't matter if you're a Prime member or not, you just have to own a device, either Kindle or Fire. The catalog is basically the same as the KU catalog. Kindle owners can have one title borrowed at a time, and may not borrow more than one a month. Further, the borrowing must be done _via the Kindle device_. Kindle apps on a 3rd party phone or tablet does NOT count. But once you borrow the title through the kindle, you can then read it on any device or app.

I don't have KU but I am a Prime member. I can have 10 Prime Reading books borrowed AND have 1 KOLL book as well.

There's also a program called Amazon First Reads. Six books are available each month; these are titles that will be released by Amazon imprints the beginning of the _next_ month. Prime members can get one book free -- not a borrow, a 'purchase'. Non-prime members can choose a book for $1.99 (I think). The books are generally released at $4.99.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks, Ann.

Amazing how many people are arguing about things without actually knowing much about what they're arguing about.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks, Ann.
> 
> Amazing how many people are arguing about things without actually knowing much about what they're arguing about.


This! 

Feeling entitled to and cheated of something that in effect does not matter much drains so much energy, on all planes of society, energy which would be better spent bettering oneself and growing one's business. It's how many wars start - imaginary grievances - emotional response - and targeting an entity as the enemy before you even know much about them.

It's called fear, and rarely does it lead to anything good.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> Nope, we were told we won't be paid anything form book borrowed via Prime, which means that pages read through KU lending library won't count or yield anything to us authors. Problem is, when writers are offered zero to participate, only Amazon profits from their books' borrows via Prime.


This is not true. At all.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Conflating a couple different programs.
> 
> Kindle Unlimited (KU): a paid lending service. HUGE catalog. Readers pay $10 a month. Can have up to 10 titles borrowed at a time and can keep 'em as long as you want.
> 
> ...


Great post, thanks, Ann! We were offered a $zero to participate in Prime, and were told we won't be able to see any sales happening on Prime. We will be eligible for KU units sales, as I said in my OP, but we refused.

No matter if KU could be counted for reads on Prime or not, for the Print version we would get nothing, while others were offered different sums. This is still discriminating and unfair.

By getting nothing I mean an advance sum for Prime participation, which can be later translated into unit sales of course.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> No matter if KU could be counted for reads on Prime or not, for the Print version we would get nothing, while others were offered different sums. This is still discriminating and unfair.


As you've been told, repeatedly, it's NOT discrimination or unfair. It's a business decision on Amazon's behalf. It says your books don't sell enough units that they thought a lump sum inducement was necessary. If you don't like it, don't participate.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> The dishonest parts:
> 1. Amazon does not have the same policy for writers on the Amazon Prime program. While some authors get paid for participating, others do not. At the same time Amazon keep selling these zero paid authors' books, and the authors get nothing from the Prime sales.
> 
> *When the book is in PR, it's still available to be bought or borrowed and earn page reads.*
> ...


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

To those taking to heart the anti-Amazon wave from OP... the OP has now (couple of posts upstream) stated not being in KU   and can thus not be expected to know what they would have made in KU, if Amazon would have paid them or if the KU/Prime/whatever system is discriminatory or not and whether or not the Amazon ad system works depending on if you are KU/Wide and/or if your ads conform with reader expectations..

OP keeps posting on assumptions seemingly not based on empirical knowledge (which some of us do have).

Noobs, be critical of all posts and do your own due diligance, about everything, in life, as in the publishing biz.

A side-note about prime.... so many seem to miss the fact that Prime is a fantastic marketing tool. Through it, your material will probably be exposed to more readers than if you bought a handful of ads. This of course has lasting effects.

Ask yourself this... if Prime was such a bad thing (participation is voluntary) why would any publishers decide to include their books?

*Nuff said.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Indeed, authors can refuse to Prime. And IMHO, they'd better do so, if they are offered nothing for this promotion! Because while the books are being borrowed by readers on Amazon Prime, the writers get nothing for their borrows.  Not fair.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

DrLiz52 said:


> Because while the books are being borrowed by readers on Amazon Prime, the writers get nothing for their Print version sales (end of program balance). In some genres Print ver. sales are the heart of the sales.


What does this mean?


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

AlecHutson said:


> What does this mean?


Writers who accept the Prime invite receive a flat fee, not an amount per book. But problem is that other writers are offered a big zero fee.

Now, at the end of the Prime membership period, this flat fee can be dived by the amount of sold books to see how much each book sale had yielded... For authors who were offered a zero fee, no profit existed per each Amazon sale, and that sucks. Amazon still earned on each borrow.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

DrLiz52 said:


> Because while the books are being borrowed by readers on Amazon Prime, the writers get nothing for their Print version sales (end of program balance). In some genres Print ver. sales are the heart of the sales.


No, I want to know what this statement you made means. About print sales.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

AlecHutson said:


> No, I want to know what this statement you made means. About print sales.


My original post explained everything. We were offered zero to join Prime, and during that time (90 days) no royalties were promised to be paid for books' borrows (Kindle) that were made via Prime. 
Other units' sales (i.e., outside Prime: Print and Kindle) were not affected.

Writers here mentioned that for units bought via Prime Kindle ver, the KU page reads were still calculated (I doubt that). Bottom line: only Amazon profits from borrows on Prime when they offer authors zero 
advance to participate, excluding the promotion which can't be quantified.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

DrLiz52 said:


> My original post explained everything. We were offered zero to join Prime, and during that time (90 days) no royalties were promised to be paid for books' borrows (Print and Kindle) that were made via Prime.
> Other units' sales (i.e., outside Prime: Print and Kindle) were not affected.
> 
> Writers here mentioned that for units bought via Prime Kindle ver, the KU page reads were still calculated, so I pointed out that the Print version was most problematic with regard to borrows that happened on Prime. Bottom line: only Amazon profits from borrows on Prime when they offer authors zero
> advance to participate, excluding the promotion which can't be quantified.


Now I'm really confused. Do you think that readers can borrow print books through Prime reading?


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> My original post explained everything. We were offered zero to join Prime, and during that time (90 days) no royalties were promised to be paid for books' borrows (Print and Kindle) that were made via Prime.
> Other units' sales (i.e., outside Prime: Print and Kindle) were not affected.
> 
> Writers here mentioned that for units bought via Prime Kindle ver, the KU page reads were still calculated, so I pointed out that the Print version was most problematic with regard to borrows that happened on Prime. Bottom line: only Amazon profits from borrows on Prime when they offer authors zero
> advance to participate, excluding the promotion which can't be quantified.


Amazon isn't a library. You can't borrow print books from it.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

AlecHutson said:


> Now I'm really confused. Do you think that readers can borrow print books through Prime reading?


My mistake, I meant Print ver. sales (not borrows) over Prime (for users who paid for online Prime), if they existed. If not, then the issue is only for the borrows of Kindle books via Prime. As far as I know, these borrows did not appear on the KU reports at all, and writers who were in this program got nothing for reads as well, and that, in addition to the advance participation sum that was not offered.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> My mistake, I meant Print ver. sales (not borrows) over Prime (for users who paid for online Prime), if they existed. If not, then the issue is only for the borrows of Kindle books via Prime. As far as I know, these borrows did not appear on the KU reports at all, and writers who were in this program got nothing for reads as well, and that, in addition to the advance participation sum that was not offered.


I can only speak of the 20 placements or so I've had in Prime Reading, but I was most certainly paid for page reads and they came in at a higher clip because of the visibility factor. I don't think you even understand what you're talking about. You're obviously confused.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I can only speak of the 20 placements or so I've had in Prime Reading, but I was most certainly paid for page reads and they came in at a higher clip because of the visibility factor. I don't think you even understand what you're talking about. You're obviously confused.


Fact is, we were offered zero to participate in Prime and refused. One writer I know was offered nothing but still agreed. For what he told me, he saw no activity on KU/ KOLL readings while on Prime; however his best seller rank did improve. He could not explain why. He did not get more money on Kindle reads than usual while on Prime, although it appeared as if sales happened.

Another point I don't like is the discriminating terms of Prime, where one writer is offered x, another y, and yet another doesn't deserve a dime.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I can only speak of the 20 placements or so I've had in Prime Reading, but I was most certainly paid for page reads and they came in at a higher clip because of the visibility factor. I don't think you even understand what you're talking about. You're obviously confused.


What do you know, with your seven-figure income and tens of thousands of books sold per month... pshaw.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

As an impartial observer:

I tend to give more credence to a poster's account of their own personal experience than to a poster's account of someone else's reported experience. That's hearsay and, frankly, meaningless.

Also, FWIW, there are a number of authors I, as a buyer/reader/customer, am willing to pay full price for. And a lot more you couldn't pay me to read. I suspect publishers give some authors bigger advances than other authors. Not seeing what's wrong with either position, frankly.

Again, the above is my opinion only, as a reader and loyal customer of Amazon -- a company which has made it really easy for me to get books any time anywhere for the last 25 years -- including when I was living overseas and local bookstores often _did not carry_ the selection of authors I'd gotten to enjoy reading. Sure, I found some new authors, but that doesn't mean I wanted to abandon ones I already loved.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Also, FWIW, there are a number of authors I, as a buyer/reader/customer, am willing to pay full price for. And a lot more you couldn't pay me to read. I suspect publishers give some authors bigger advances than other authors. Not seeing what's wrong with either position, frankly.


Yeah, it's pretty fundamental to our economic system that in-demand products can command higher prices than less desirable products. <shrug> Whatcha gonna do, other than try to create more desirable products?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> Another point I don't like is the discriminating terms of Prime, where one writer is offered x, another y, and yet another doesn't deserve a dime.


I think the problem here is that you don't understand that publishing is a business and you are too emotionally invested in your book(s). You keep using emotive terms like unfair and discrimination for standard business decisions. For example, trad publishers will offer one author a $500 advance and another will be offered $1,000,000. That's not *unfair or discrimination* - it's a business tactic based on the perceived value of the product.

You need to take a step back and learn about the business of publishing. If you think you were given a low ball offer to have your book in Prime, then do what the trad author who is only offered $500 does - go elsewhere, or offer a product that has a greater value. If you were offered nothing to be in Prime that is a reflection of the perceived value of the title. Stop playing the victim and complaining about non-existent discrimination and do something you can control - like improving the quality of your book or increasing sales.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

Thank you @Tilly . You hit the nail there.


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

To be honest, I wonder if the OP has concocted this whole thread out of thin air. Three books chosen for Prime reading at the same time, with no money offered? Every other author I've ever interacted with was offered some monetary inducement - sure, maybe they don't offer money in some genres, but three books at the same time (Prime is not a common enough occurrence that any author is likely to have 3 books enrolled simultaneously) and all not given a bonus to enroll? And then the OP clearly does not understand even the broad strokes of how the program works? She thought a physical copy could be borrowed?! I can't imagine a scenario where ANY author would turn down Prime, with or without the extra money - the visibility is just too valuable (you essentially are allowed to keep selling your books and getting your KU reads AND a bunch of readers that never would have read your book pick it up AND you get a massive rank boost that leads to increased visibility). It's mind-boggling that this ridiculous thread has lasted this long. Something doesn't add up.


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## atree (Jan 1, 2019)

@AlecHutson I agree.

I am increasingly surprised at how high the bar has been put on banning and/or pausing of profiles. Seems like anything goes now.

I keep posting, but I already left Kboards once. This my new profile is merely out of pity as I keep seeing new writers become confused and influenced by posts and "information" that is downright wrong, posted by other noobs who haven't a clue what they are talking about, or posts simply meant to stir up controversy.

Hugs to the admins who were with us in the old days. I assume your jobs have now really become more of a job and less a vocation. Still, the cattle prod could do with some use now and then.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2019)

AlecHutson said:


> To be honest, I wonder if the OP has concocted this whole thread out of thin air... It's mind-boggling that this ridiculous thread has lasted this long. Something doesn't add up.


It's not the first thread the OP has started with false information and outlandish claims trying to stir up hysteria/sky-is-falling/hyperbole. No wonder people who want to discuss the business of publishing have gone elsewhere.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I can only speak of the 20 placements or so I've had in Prime Reading, but I was most certainly paid for page reads and they came in at a higher clip because of the visibility factor.


You probably got money for the KU/ KOLL reads while on Prime, because your terms were different from ours, plus you were offered an advance and we were not.

FYI, our titles sell quite well (now not only on Amazon.) And unless our books had been of value to Amazon, they would not have invited us to participate in Prime, would they?

I still don't think that offering Authors no royalty for Prime participation, while selling/ their books for Prime borrows is OK. That means that only Amazon profits in this program and authors titles are just tools for their enrichment. It could be 100 bucks or 1000 bucks, but it should have been something. Offering nothing is disgrace.

And to all the Ambassadors: here's a snippet from our Invite to Prime that clearly states, we won't be getting anything from Prime borrows.

*Invitation to Participate in Prime Reading*

We invite you to include your titles listed below in the US Prime Reading Program on Amazon.com....

....Please note, *while you will not receive royalties for Prime Reading and will not see activity concerning this program in your KDP reports*, your books will still be available for sale and will still qualify for unit sales and pages reads for Kindle Unlimited.

....If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us via... 
*We appreciate your discretion in not sharing details of this program. *


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## JimKozak (Aug 24, 2018)

DrLiz52 said:


> You probably got money for the KU/ KOLL reads while on Prime, because your terms were different from ours, plus you were offered an advance and we were not.


If I had to guess, nobody is getting different terms. The main difference is the amount of _incentive_ an author is offered to join the program. Because that's exactly what it is, an incentive - not a royalty, or advance, or a payment in exchange for goods or services provided. It's the cherry on top. If whoever makes these decisions doesn't think you need to be enticed to accept, why throw money away?

While I agree that people should be paid for things like this, getting X days of free book promotion that boosts paid sales rank while exposing my product to potentially untapped segments of consumers would be too good to pass up. Incentive or otherwise.

It also seems like you're missing the most important point.



DrLiz52 said:


> your books will still be available for sale and will still qualify for unit sales and pages reads for Kindle Unlimited.


Nobody has disputed that the program pays nothing aside from the possible incentive, but the points you keep bringing up and highlighting make it seem like you think the book is pulled from sale completely while enrolled. It's only free to consumers with an active Prime subscription. And if you want to really narrow it down, it's for people who have an active Prime sub and actually know Prime Reading exists. Again, if I had to guess, it probably goes unused by a large subset of subscribers.

So, while it might not be _fair_ that there's no payment, it's still only _optional_. Like any promotional tool, nothing is forcing you to use it. You didn't think it was a sound business decision to accept, and that's perfectly understandable. Others obviously disagree, myself included.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

DrLiz52 said:


> You probably got money for the KU/ KOLL reads while on Prime, because your terms were different from ours, plus you were offered an advance and we were not.
> 
> FYI, our titles sell quite well (now not only on Amazon.) And unless our books had been of value to Amazon, they would not have invited us to participate in Prime, would they?
> 
> ...


My terms aren't different from anyone's. Everyone gets readings from KU/KOLL if books are borrowed by KU readers even through the Prime program. That's hardly a hidden benefit. Please stop spouting conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact.


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## Harry J Langley (Jul 27, 2018)

I don't really understand the point of this thread in all honesty. If you don't want to participate then don't, if you do then go ahead, simple. Amazon will offer whatever incentive they deem needed to entice you to agree; if it's nothing monetary then they obviously deem the promotional benefit of the program enough based on your sales.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

DrLiz52 said:


> And to all the Ambassadors: here's a snippet from our Invite to Prime that clearly states, we won't be getting anything from Prime borrows.
> 
> *Invitation to Participate in Prime Reading*
> 
> ...


I probably shouldn't comment here because I'm not an author, I'm not even a KU subscriber (I am an Amazon Prime member), but I have been following this thread and what you believe is so clearly stated above does not read the same way to me at all.

I understand the "you will not receive royalties for Prime Reading" as: You will not get paid for a "sale" if a book is borrowed in the digital-only Prime Reading borrowing program because readers who avail themselves of it are not buying the digital book, they are borrowing it.

I understand the "you will not see activity concerning this program in your KDP reports" as: There will be no new section in your KDP reports labeled Prime Reading borrows. My understanding is that authors who have books in Select (KU) never see anything but page-read totals, they never know how many books have actually been borrowed. Your page reads from the Prime borrows would accrue right along with any already reported KU page reads.

The "your books will still be available for sale and will still qualify for unit sales and page reads for Kindle Unlimited" reads to me as exactly that. Your paper book sales are not affected at all, your digital book is still available at whatever price you set for it to non-KU/Prime subscribers (and even they can still outright buy it if they want to "own" it instead of borrowing) and you will be paid if someone buys it. The "and page reads for KU" means if someone borrows the book through Prime Reading and reads it, the page reads are going to show up with the rest of the KU/KOLL reads and you will get paid whatever the going rate is when it is announced on the 15th of the next month.

It's basically like all Prime members become KU subscribers for one specific subset of approximately 1,000 books as a perk of being a Prime member. I can understand being disgruntled if you aren't offered a flat fee to participate and some others are, but I believe saying you aren't going to get paid while participating is flat wrong.

My worth less than .02 take on it.


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

crebel said:


> I understand the "you will not receive royalties for Prime Reading" as: You will not get paid for a "sale" if a book is borrowed in the digital-only Prime Reading borrowing program because readers who avail themselves of it are not buying the digital book, they are borrowing it....


|

Yes, readers are borrowing it on Prime, but to be Prime members (to be able to borrow x books on Prime) they still pay Amazon a fixed fee... Amazon still profiting...


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## ImaWriter (Aug 12, 2015)

DrLiz52 said:


> Amazon still profiting...


How dare they.

Oh, wait...


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> Amazon still profiting...


Good grief. Demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about how to run a business. Making a profit! How scandalous. Unfair. And probably discriminatory...

_Edited out a sentence that was not in keeping with our forum decorum. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## DrLiz52 (Mar 9, 2019)

ImaWriter said:


> How dare they.
> 
> Oh, wait...


Yes, readers are borrowing it on Prime, but to be Prime members (to be able to borrow x books on Prime) they still pay Amazon a fixed fee... Bottom line, Amazon are still profiting on the writers. But why won't they share their profits with the authors whose books they are lending? Why don't they pay all writers who accept to participate in Prime something? (10, 100, 1000 $ whatever). Again, paying 0 is a disgrace.


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## Harry J Langley (Jul 27, 2018)

DrLiz52 said:


> Yes, readers are borrowing it on Prime, but to be Prime members (to be able to borrow x books on Prime) they still pay Amazon a fixed fee... Bottom line, Amazon are still profiting on the writers. But why won't they share their profits with the authors whose books they are lending? Why don't they pay all writers who accept to participate in Prime something? (10, 100, 1000 $ whatever). Again, paying 0 is a disgrace.


They _offered_ you the option of being in PR. You're not being strong armed into it so what is the point in this conversation? Offering no money reward is not a disgrace, it is business, it's Amazon's estimations of your sales. In their opinion you simply don't sell enough books to warrant being paid to enter, the publicity is your reward.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

DrLiz52 said:
 

> Yes, readers are borrowing it on Prime, but to be Prime members (to be able to borrow x books on Prime) they still pay Amazon a fixed fee... Bottom line, Amazon are still profiting on the writers. But why won't they share their profits with the authors whose books they are lending? Why don't they pay all writers who accept to participate in Prime something? (10, 100, 1000 $ whatever). Again, paying 0 is a disgrace.


I think you're just being willfully obtuse about potential benefits and payment for books in Prime Reading now. As far as Prime goes, Amazon is profiting (maybe) off of ME not you. I was a Prime member long, long before Prime Reading and I don't know anyone who pays for Prime only to have access to Prime Reading. It's a side perk of what I'm willing to pay with or without the availability of Prime Reading. I generally save far more with free shipping than my Prime membership costs each year.

I'm not a KU subscriber, so you will never get paid for page reads from me. If I find your book because it's available for 90 days in Prime Reading, then you'll get paid for my page-reads and, if I like your book, I'll go on to outright buy the rest of your books if it's a series. Would I find your book to outright buy if it doesn't have the visibility of the Prime Reading program? I don't know, doubtful - your books aren't even in your signature line here for me to check them out, but maybe.

If you don't believe 90 days of free Amazon advertising to a large subset of readers while getting paid for page reads from people who might not otherwise have seen/heard of your books will be offset by those same people finding your book and outright buying it unless you ALSO get a flat-rate fee for joining the program, then just say no. But stop saying you don't get paid because I just don't believe that is true and nothing in the words you keep bolding say what you want them to say.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Avis Black said:


> It is not easy to make a call in which the vast majority of authors in Prime Reading have not reported their financial gains or loses. There really needs to be a poll about this. If I had to estimate, I'd say that if Amazon asked you to put 3 books in Prime, and you have a total of 6 books out, you could be losing potentially 50% of your earnings. Now, if you have 20, you may be in a position to make money. I wouldn't advise it if you have very few books.
> 
> One concern I have is that Amazon has already looked all your titles and decided from their internal data which would be the most likely to draw in readers and be read through completely. If those are the titles Amazon wants, and you, from your own data, don't see a lot sell-through to the remaining titles, it does look like you're not going to get much sell-through in Prime Reading. Amazon will have already cherry-picked the best of your work, which they won't be paying you for.
> 
> Another problem is, can you take the loss in earnings? Writers have bills to pay, just like anyone else.


I don't see where you are taking a loss of earnings. I spoke with amazon about this today on the phone.

BEFORE going in in PR you are making money 2 ways ( regular sale, and if your book is in KU from page reads) That doesn't change when you go into PR. That still happens. ( so no loss of earnings there )

Now, once you are in PR, you don't get paid by those PR readers, but amazon gives you a BONUS ( could vary from 3 figures up to 4 figures ) on a book. You get that after the 90 days, well another 60 days after those 90s days, so basically 180 days later it will land in your account.

Yes there are times they contact you and offer prime without a bonus ( in those instances just turn them down or go for it ) but most of the time they offer a bonus for your time, so you are not out of pocket.

I think this is a bit of a win win situation

1. You get your regular sales and KU page reads ( that doesn't change )
2. You get a bonus and a boost in rankings ( which could then create more of #1 )



DrLiz52 said:


> Another point I don't like is the discriminating terms of Prime, where one writer is offered x, another y, and yet another doesn't deserve a dime.


That part is simple. It boils down to how your book was doing PRIOR to be invited. If it was killing it. Do you think they are going to offer zero or $500. No. They offer higher. However, if was ambling somewhere in the 20,000 or even 10,000 mark. You can't expect them to hand you a nice big check when it was barely performing before they invited you.

When i was accepted for two of my books, one was higher than the other. I accepted on both and have seen great results.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

>One does not "purchase" books through Prime Reading

Ah, but one does! We pay $129 a year for Prime, which Mr Bezos defines as a paid subscription, so every freebie is therefore a sale, and the titles therefore shoot to the Top 100 Paid. That, I assume, is bait enough to get KDP authors to sign up for zero royalties. (I don't know; I haven't been invited.)

Amazon started by paying $1000 to the lucky author, then $500, and now the Dutch auction is paying zero.

I'm as guilty as the next guy for encouraging this fraud. Almost every month I download a freebie under Prime Reading or another such program. Mr Bezos really knows how to exploit our weak points. Most of the titles I download do go to the "best seller" [sic] list.

I also notice that it's now difficult or impossible to get the NYT best-seller list on Amazon. The last time I tried, I wound up going to the NYT site instead. Has anyone else experienced that? I have a dark feeling that Mr Bezos noticed that too many of us were seeking that list in preference to his own fraudulent ones.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

If your book is good, it can be a huge boost to sales (and borrows if that and other books are in KU). If you do not want to do it, just say no. No need for anger and hand wringing. It is a promotion. You do not get royalties when you offer a free book either. You do it for sell through. 

The name of the game in this business is visibility. These days an unknown author has to pay through the nose for it. This is paid visibility. Also sells the audiobook big time. That is only if the book is compelling enough to rise in the PR charts and for people to finish it and look for more.

ETA: Whoops, old thread. Oh well; still true.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

DrLiz52 said:


> FYI, our titles sell quite well (now not only on Amazon.) And unless our books had been of value to Amazon, they would not have invited us to participate in Prime, would they?
> 
> I still don't think that offering Authors no royalty for Prime participation, while selling/ their books for Prime borrows is OK. That means that only Amazon profits in this program and authors titles are just tools for their enrichment. It could be 100 bucks or 1000 bucks, but it should have been something. Offering nothing is disgrace.


Sorry for unearthing this thread again folks.

I thought i would throw in again my 2 cents on this.

1. I have always in the past received money when offered to be in prime
2. I have always had great results ( high rankings in that time )

However, this time around, I've been offered it and they didn't offer me money.

In this case I can understand what this author above is saying. Although the chances are KU pages will increase, and rankings would it still would be nice to get something, even a $100 offered for agreeing to be in Prime for 90 days.

We are basically boosting the appeal of prime for amazon ( they reap the reward ) IF we agree.

I may not take it on the FREE one

But the have contacted me about another one and are willing to pay money. But the other one they offered zero.

Anyway, that's my experience and my 2 cents.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

In a way, it's no different than offering a free or reduced price first in series. The aim is to get visibility and to make money on subsequent sales on the rest of the series. You can do it, or not. There's nothing underhanded about what Amazon is doing, they state the way the program works up front.

I think it's time this thread got locked. Nothing can be gained about rehashing something like this, especially in a thread that's almost two years old at this point.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

unkownwriter said:


> In a way, it's no different than offering a free or reduced price first in series. The aim is to get visibility and to make money on subsequent sales on the rest of the series. You can do it, or not. There's nothing underhanded about what Amazon is doing, they state the way the program works up front.
> 
> I think it's time this thread got locked. Nothing can be gained about rehashing something like this, especially in a thread that's almost two years old at this point.


No, i agree with you. It's not underhanded. Amazon can do whatever the hell they like because they give us a choice to not do it and there is zippo that anyone can do to change their mind.

However, it is is different to putting a book at a reduced price as you are still making money on that book. You aren't from those prime readers. ( at least not on the one that went in for 90 days )

Its more like going FREE and hoping it pays off on people going on to buy your other stuff, getting sign ups and so on

I do still think if Amazon wants to include your book in prime where they hold it for 90 days and make money they should give authors more incentive with cold hard cash as a bonus and not offer a bonus on one book and zero on another.

The reason they pick that book is that they know its doing well.

Rarely ever do they pick books that aren't doing well.

But yeah nothing to be gained here. Lock away. I've had good experiences with prime so i can't complain, however, their free offers might not be the best. We shall see. I will test it out once. Fool me once... yada yada,


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## CharlesTabb (May 26, 2019)

DrLiz52 said:


> *Amazon does not pay royalties for books enrolled in Prime Reading*
> 
> Recently 3 of our titles have been picked for Amazon Prime Reading. In a warm invite they welcomed our titles for a limited period of time, but in the same breath said, we won't receive any royalties for readings over Prime, and won't see any activity about this program on the KDP reports...
> 
> ...


I was offered $1,000 for 90 days on Prime Reading. I understand some authors are not offered anything, yet from what I understand, having a book chosen for Prime Reading is a feather in the author's cap since they are looking for only the best books available on Kindle. (Take my word for it, many are not good at all.)


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

CharlesTabb said:


> I was offered $1,000 for 90 days on Prime Reading. I understand some authors are not offered anything, yet from what I understand, having a book chosen for Prime Reading is a feather in the author's cap since they are looking for only the best books available on Kindle. (Take my word for it, many are not good at all.)


This thread is over 2 years old. You might find things have changed since then.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

CharlesTabb said:


> they are looking for only the best books available on Kindle


Actually, they are just looking for something they think Prime members will like. It's something to help Amazon keep Prime members happy.

From what I understand, most people get nothing but the invite these days. No money at all. Again, the point for authors invited is to get those extra eyes on their book, in hopes Prime members will like it and move on to the author's other books, which they will buy.

It is _no_ different than having a sale price, or making a book free, the point is to get readers/buyers who will move on the to author's other books, at full price.


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