# Free is bad for us all



## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Personal opinion but I think the freemium model is detrimental to all creative industries.  Not only does it devalue the actual work - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for - but we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc.  Now, I understand the concept of a loss leader (I work in advertising after all), which is a legitimate selling tool as long as it is for a limited time and not overused - Free is now officially overused and it's killing us.  I see people on the boards here who run a promotion where they give away their book then get excited when they get thousands of downloads.  Of course, you got thousands of downloads, the consumers had to do nothing more than push a button to get something you presumably put hundreds of hours of work into.  Do not see this as a validation of your product, people will take anything if they don't have to pay for it.  
There is an argument that if you have a series of books then give away the first one and, if they like it, they'll buy the rest of the series.  They might, or they might just look for the next free book, because god knows there'll be another along in a minute, or they might just wait until you get desperate enough to offer the next in the series for free.
I can see a point soon when creatives who value their work will stop doing it because the amount of effort required does not equal the reward - sure there will always be starving artists out there but the professionals who actually want to make a living out of their work will find it impossible to compete.
While competition is as fierce as it is going free won't stop but how about we put a stake in the ground (he implores naively) and price your book on special for .99 cents, at least that way we are saying our work has value, pay for it. 
Rant over.


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## maineavalanche (Mar 22, 2013)

I see both sides of the argument on this.  If I wrote serialized works, then the freemium model would be very attractive and I certainly understand why those who write series and serialized novels go that route, but as someone who writes mainly novels, it just doesn't make as much sense.  In an ideal world, people would pay us what our books are worth, but with the amount of people publishing and just fighting to get your name out there, that's never going to happen.  The best thing I can say is do what works for you and don't worry about what anyone else is doing.  There is no right or wrong way to go about these things.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Not sure if this is a serious post, but, seriously:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,176368.0.html
and
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,174034.0.html

And that's just in the last two weeks.

The general consensus is a) do what you want and b) your opinion really only matters to you.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Nope.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm getting sick from all the popcorn this topic generates.    Can't we kill it, please?


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

DianaGabriel said:


> Not sure if this is a serious post, but, seriously:
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,176368.0.html
> and
> ...


Right - Do what you want - seriously. You don't think that attitude isn't wholly selfish and dangerous. You wanna nick something, go ahead, don't do what's right, do what's right for you, stuff everyone else. That's great and something we should definitely teach our kids. 
As for opinions, you don't have to like them or agree with them but we all have a right to express them and have them taken seriously.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

There are many roads to Oz and Oz means different things for each of us.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Then go jump into the discussions that are already in progress. I don't object to your having or expressing your opinion, but do you really need your very own thread when, as has been pointed out, there are already several ongoing?


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Oh lordy, not again.

There will never be a consensus on this one way or the other.


Everyone else can stop doing free if they want, though. I am fine with having the only perma-free book on the market


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## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

DianaGabriel said:


> The general consensus is a) do what you want and b) your opinion really only matters to you.


Yeah, and that's the problem with a completely democratic market. The defectors always "win", and at the expense of everyone else. Or if there is no winning, then at least, anyone who decides to give their book away perma-free erodes value in the market at the expense of the rest of us. Making matters worse, perma-free has lost its value as a marketing tool for future works. And frankly, I hope to see some policing of distribution points in the future (You hear that Amazon? You're being manipulated and its costing you, your business model and your readers).

I've blogged about this before and I agree completely with Gleen on this one, to the extent that you'll never see perma-frees in my library and I won't accept your book if you're giving it away. As a proponent of the Indie business model, which varies from small-business to small-business but remains remarkably similar throughout our shared piece of the pie, I believe that this is a matter of principle that needs to get more traction. Every time I see someone crowing about how their perma-free book "worked" for them, I'm also hearing "And I just crapped all over you."

Consensus? A vocal minority, unconcerned with the broader ramifications of their actions. Get it together folks, when you give something away you've devalued your work. You've consequently devalued the work of everyone who stands with you.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Donna White Glaser said:


> Then go jump into the discussions that are already in progress. I don't object to your having or expressing your opinion, but do you really need your very own thread when, as has been pointed out, there are already several ongoing?


Fair call - I didn't realise they were out there when I posted and don't get the whole join the link thing being somewhat technologically inept.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

If you aren't interested in yet another thread on this topic, stop reading now.

If you are going to post, be civil, and that includes you, Glenn.  People can disagree that going free hurts other authors, no need to attack them.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> If you aren't interested in yet another thread on this topic, stop reading now.
> 
> ...


Fair enough Betsy I'll tone it down, it's just a topic it's easy to get passionate about - also didn't realise there had already been so much discussion on this. No offence meant.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Glenn Wood said:


> As for opinions, you don't have to like them or agree with them but we all have a right to express them and have them taken seriously.


Nope. You have the right to have an opinion, and to express it in a public (not private) place. That's it. You don't have a right to be taken seriously.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Glenn, If you click on the links that DianaGabriel posted you'll be taken right into the fray. (Did I spell that right?) There are tons and tons of opinions both for and against the idea of free promos. I think you'll probably get a better feel for both sides if you check them out.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> Consensus? A vocal minority, unconcerned with the broader ramifications of their actions. Get it together folks, when you give something away you've devalued your work. You've consequently devalued the work of everyone who stands with you.


It's important to realise that not everyone who disagrees with you does so for selfish reasons. Some of us honestly believe that the old 'if you give it away, you devalue it for everyone' is a load of hokum. Fresh, steaming hokum at that.


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

When I give away a book for free, I'm saying, "I know you've never heard of me ... here, check this out and see if you like what I'm writing. If you do, check out the other books listed on the 'Also by Suzanna' page inside."


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## Brenda Ortega (Jul 22, 2013)

I worry about the same things as the OP, but I also know from personal experience that free doesn't necessarily work on me as a reader. I've downloaded free books and either never read them or not liked them. I'd rather choose books that I can't wait to read -- free or not -- and I'm pricing my books that way. I won't go free, but I'm not going to worry about what others do.


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

*I agree entirely with everything Mr. Glenn Wood says.* I will *never *make my work Permafree. If a person contacts me in any way and requests an ebook, I gift it to them, no questions asked- this happens rarely.   

IMO Permafree and Select are big mistakes for both Amazon.com and Indie authors, because it hurts everyone involved.   

Mr. Wood, I respect and admire you for your Post. God bless you Sir for it!   

Best regards,

Phil D.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Glenn, I agree that overall free may be bad for authors in general. The problem is, it's very good for individual authors. And while it may have unfortunate long-term results, it has extremely good short term results. In other words, you're asking authors to give up what's good for us individually _today_ in order to improve conditions for the whole over the long term. That's a little like asking Wal-mart not to price lower than Target. Sure, they may be driving down consumer cost expectations. But they're running their business in a way that benefits them. It's not their responsibility to be concerned about what other business do in response.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Glenn Wood said:


> Right - Do what you want - seriously. You don't think that attitude isn't wholly selfish and dangerous. You wanna nick something, go ahead, don't do what's right, do what's right for you, stuff everyone else. That's great and something we should definitely teach our kids.
> As for opinions, you don't have to like them or agree with them but we all have a right to express them and have them taken seriously.


My only response is, who are you to tell me what is "right"? I'll do what I believe is right. And you'll do what you believe is right. In this and everything else.

All over this board, there are many reasoned and articulate responses on both sides of this issue. But what it comes down to is that you only have control over your own actions. Act the way that is aligned with your beliefs. Don't price free; utilize long term strategies. That is your right. Just as others have the right to give away their work, and to use other short term career building strategies.

For better or worse, that is the nature of a free market. I don't always love it, either - believe me. But it is what it is.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Seriously, I'm not going to stab myself because other people don't understand my business model.

Anytime I start to wonder about whether giving something small away for free to build up something larger, I ask myself what Penny Arcade would think of going to microtransactions.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

When it stops being beneficial to business, then the vendors will stop allowing free.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> Seriously, I'm not going to stab myself because other people don't understand my business model.
> 
> Anytime I start to wonder about whether giving something small away for free to build up something larger, I ask myself what Penny Arcade would think of going to microtransactions.


Don't forget the best-known purveyor of free books there is - the local library. I get more free books there than I ever have or will from Amazon, and yes, it has resulted in my buying books. Not all of them, mind you, or I'd need to buy another house...

That leads me to my main objection to the OP. Free isn't bad for 'everyone.' For many readers, it's an ideal way to try out another author, especially if their library has a limited (or nonexistent) selection of ebooks.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2014)

Maybe it's like smoking - you know it's really bad for you and you should quit, but by golly it's tough and you just can't seem to wean yourself away.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Glenn, I agree that overall free may be bad for authors in general. The problem is, it's very good for individual authors.


Why is it bad for authors in general? Do you have data? Or are you just basing this on something you feel?

Indie authors in particular need the free first pricing model. Consumers are right to be cautious about our work, there is a lot of substandard material out there. By providing something free we show them that our work is worthwhile, and in turn give them more confidence in other indies, and more importantly purchasing indies.

Hmmmm...or are you saying it's bad for the traditional publishers? That might be true, but that doesn't make it bad for _authors_.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, I try not to weigh in on 'Is Free Going to Kill Us All?' type debates, because I've been around and had this debate far too many times before. But what the heck?

- Explain how you can be 100% sure that free books are injuring the market. I'm intrigued by this certainty of yours.

- Gutenberg.org has been giving away free ebooks for years. Thousands of them, at that, for more years than we've had e-ink technology.

- Do people who read free ebooks never _buy_ ebooks?

- Do people ever buy an ebook reader due to the lure of free ebooks?

- Will a free ebook distract a reader from a purchase they planned to make?

- Will readers read anything that's available, or do they have preferences for specific authors, genres, and writing styles?

- If readers do have strong preferences, are these preferences strong enough that they'll pay for what they want to read?

- How does the current ebook situation differ from the old library-vs-bookstore situation?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Another business the "free sample" method has destroyed: Costco.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

My questions for the OP or anyone who agrees with his post is this.

I've seen these statements and similar made many times:

"...the freemium model is detrimental to all creative industries."
"it devalue(s) the actual work - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for"
"...we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc."
"Free is now officially overused and it's killing us."

Can you provide any evidence, any hard evidence, to support these assertions? Not feelings, not moral stands, but actual proof that these things are occuring?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> Another business the "free sample" method has destroyed: Costco.


Don't forget broadcast television, whose entire business model is to give away entertainment to entice people to watch ads.

This Sunday, over a billion people are going to get a free big football game and the folks giving it away are all going to take money showers.


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## Carina Wilder (Nov 12, 2013)

I find this an interesting debate each time it comes up.

There's no doubt that free has helped a lot of authors. My only real beef comes when I see a review of someone's book in which the reviewer states, "this should have been free," as though it's some sort of bar that they've set for the work's quality.

My issue with this is the insinuation that free = sub-par. More and more readers do seem to expect free books to be handed out, because it's become the norm.

However this is also contradicted when readers get the first of a series free and buy the rest, implying of course that the work was good enough to encourage them to keep reading.

I've had debates over decades with people who think writing and music should be free, period. Music should belong to the masses, so should books, they say. There will always be readers with the attitude that writing isn't work, ergo it doesn't merit remuneration. But there are many who appreciate the work and the creativity that go into writing, and those are the ones who matter when it comes to earning money. As to the author, it's a question of exposure, often, and worth the loss of potential income to earn readers, and I get that.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Glenn Wood said:


> Personal opinion but I think the freemium model is detrimental to all creative industries. Not only does it devalue the actual work - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for - but we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc.


Seems to me you have it all backwards. There's something call the law of supply and demand. There's a huge market out there for free content. Smart publishers will cater to that market to their advantage. When the demand goes away, there will be fewer free books. Since the demand is there, guess which business model wins out?


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Okay, now a non-flip answer.

I do not think that giving away free copies of one's artwork devalues all creative work, or even ANY creative work.

You're making the mistake of assuming that "value" refers to money -- to how much somebody will pay for something. It does not refer to that at all. Value is a comparison of utility, specifically in relation to cost. So while price or cost or how much one will pay does come into play, the real stress in the value equation is UTILITY.

How much USE is somebody getting from the object or service? Is the amount of use they derive fairly proportioned to what they had to do in order to get it? In the case of books and other forms of art, the use the buyer/user gets is in the enjoyment it provides.

A _good _ book given away for free has a HIGHER value. The reader paid nothing for it, but if they really enjoyed that book, then the value is higher than a book they enjoyed equally well, but which they paid a lot of money for. Because the reader feels he got high value from that product, he is more likely to return and buy more of that brand (i.e. more of the author's work) than he is to return and buy more of the brand which gave him relatively less value (i.e. the author of the full-priced book.)

Now, there's a whole foggy gray area in analyzing value and the psychology of value, wherein people tend to ascribe more importance or higher quality to stuff they pay more money for. But that's a tendency, and there are thresholds where higher price becomes a stumbling block and the perception of value decreases as the price goes higher, rather than perception of value increasing.

In short, there's justification for you to run your own bookselling either way -- never going free, or doing some stuff free -- as you please. In the end, it'll all come down to how good your books are anyway, and if your books aren't good, there's no fiddling with price that can ultimately sustain your sales. Good books will succeed where bad books won't, regardless of any temporary marketing boost given by price adjustments up or down.

But giving away art for free does not devalue it. Nor does it train consumers to expect to never pay for art or entertainment. Freebies are temporary treats. The fact that people still pay well above average prices for some books proves that very few readers are out there only downloading free books with zero consideration for any other feature but price/freeness. Piracy of music has only increased the pirated musicians' incomes; musicians who routinely give away free product to their fans have perfectly stable and even growing incomes. I'm sure if there were a feasible way for visual artists to give away some of their work easily, they'd do it, too.

The more people who sample, the likelier you are to seed the perception of high value in consumers. If your books are good.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess I don't get the point of arguing about it. You can't make every writer in the world to stop making their books for free, so why not just deal with the real?


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## Sarah Scribblez (Dec 26, 2013)

I'm working on a twelve part novella series, and once part three or maybe four has been posted...part one shall (Amazon permitting) become perma-free. Because hopefully it will entice people into the series and make them want to pay for parts two-twelve. it's a model that makes sense to the individual author, as it gives away a free sample of their work, and hopefully generates a fan to go on and buy further works.

Freebies are nothing new - we get inundated with pharmaceutical, medical and stationary promotional items all the time at work, in the hopes that my company will go on to make a purchase. If their sample product is decent, then maybe we'll make an order. I see it as the same premise for authors. Not all authors may wish to adopt this marketing strategy, the same way not all stationary companies will do so. it should be up to the individual on how they want to market their work, and a freebie to entice the reader in is simply one strategy. And an easy one for those of us that are just starting out and perhaps spending money on advertising in addition to the covers and editing isn't always feasible.


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## georgette (Sep 4, 2013)

Suzanna Medeiros said:


> When I give away a book for free, I'm saying, "I know you've never heard of me ... here, check this out and see if you like what I'm writing. If you do, check out the other books listed on the 'Also by Suzanna' page inside."


Absolutely, and I've discovered several of my favorite authors by doing that. Jana DeLeon, for instance. After I downloaded her free book I bought all of her subsequent books.

To me, offering the first book in a series for free or 99 cents actually shows a great deal of confidence- you're saying, I have enough faith in my work that I believe that once you have read one of my books, you will want more.


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## Logan R. (May 13, 2011)

JuliaKent said:


> I don't understand why people spend walls of text writing about this issue. Most of the writers I know who make free books work for them aren't on these threads.
> 
> They're writing more books.


Yeah, but even God had to take a break on the seventh day! 

As far as the "free is bad" issue, I totally disagree. It's worked for me in the past, and is working for me again. However, I respect your opinion. If you don't wanna make your book free, then don't! Not every single indie author who has been successful has been because of free. However, there are quite a few that have been!

There's not a single path to success like there used to be. That's the beautiful thing about indie publishing! You can do whatever the heck you want!


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

georgette said:


> Absolutely, and I've discovered several of my favorite authors by doing that. Jana DeLeon, for instance. After I downloaded her free book I bought all of her subsequent books.
> 
> To me, offering the first book in a series for free or 99 cents actually shows a great deal of confidence- you're saying, I have enough faith in my work that I believe that once you have read one of my books, you will want more.


Thanks, Georgette! I'm glad you enjoyed it!


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

C. Gockel said:


> Why is it bad for authors in general? Do you have data? Or are you just basing this on something you feel?


All the data I'm aware of points toward the current benefits of free. I've seen no data yet for the year 2015 and beyond, so the long-term benefits are up in the air. I'm not knocking free - it's a big part of how I make my living. But in these discussions, I'd like to see some acknowledgement of the uncertainty of the future. As good as free has been to me, I believe it's always worthwhile to discuss the pros and cons and not close our minds to opposing viewpoints. Blanket statements like "free is good" or "free is bad" smack too much of _the place that shall not be named_. I'd rather be constantly assessing and reassessing all my strategies, including free.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm in the opinion that it devalues work... but, while I'll probably never choose to go free, we are all running a business. And using free is a great tool.


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## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

nomesque said:


> It's important to realise that not everyone who disagrees with you does so for selfish reasons. Some of us honestly believe that the old 'if you give it away, you devalue it for everyone' is a load of hokum. Fresh, steaming hokum at that.


That's a problem with belief then, isn't it? The data is out there. The valuation of books, specifically long-form books in any genre has been affected negatively. And both Indies and traditional publishers recognize that the causal agent for this loss of value is, at least in part, the byproduct of a market flush of perma-free books. Why buy when you can get it free?

Your personal reasons for giving away your work are all your own. But unless you're a fully committed communist living contentedly in a self sufficient, completely contained commune, the utilitarian motivation for giving away your work is most likely to be you're hoping to grow your fan base for future works. And this action effects the value of both your work and the work of those around you. And that is a defection.

Facts of the matter aside, I know I'm arguing with a system of belief. You've said as much. And so I also hold out little hope of changing your mind, because, as I've said, the facts of the matter are aside. And I certainly can see the allure of defection, when it works, it usually works very well (for that individual and their line of works).


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> I can see a point soon when creatives who value their work will stop doing it because the amount of effort required does not equal the reward - sure there will always be starving artists out there but the professionals who actually want to make a living out of their work will find it impossible to compete


.

I agree free is a competitive tactic. And I agree some folks will not be able to compete and will leave the market.

So what? Someone else will step up and take their place, There is no shortage of authors. The market won't even notice.

And that validation and value stuff? I'm happy to be invalid and worthless. Makes life more fun when the measure is based on Amazon buy clicks.

Perhaps people won't be able to make a living from their work. Ok. People who make a living some other way can still write great books.

Ain't this a great country?


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## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

nomesque said:


> - Gutenberg.org has been giving away free ebooks for years. Thousands of them, at that, for more years than we've had e-ink technology.


Wondered when this might come up. Think about it for a while, what about Gutenberg books is different than something that has just been written and published? If you said "copyright" than you got it in one. Good for you!

These books, absolutely every last one of them have already left the market because they no longer are afforded the protection of copyright. Those books don't affect market because they're not part of it any more.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> Wondered when this might come up. Think about it for a while, what about Gutenberg books is different than something that has just been written and published? If you said "copyright" than you got it in one. Good for you!
> 
> These books, absolutely every last one of them have already left the market because they no longer are afforded the protection of copyright. Those books don't affect market because they're not part of it any more.


Of course they're part of the market. Publishers have been making money from out-of-copyright books for a long time.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> That's a problem with belief then, isn't it? The data is out there. The valuation of books, specifically long-form books in any genre has been affected negatively. And both Indies and traditional publishers recognize that the causal agent for this loss of value is, at least in part, the byproduct of a market flush of perma-free books.


I see that prices are coming down, but I don't see any mention of free being a factor there. I have not seen anything that suggests indies and publishers agree that a causal agent for the decline is free books.


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## Sarah Wynde (Apr 7, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Not only does it devalue the actual work - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for - but we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc.


Clearly, libraries have been a very, very bad invention. Those evil places, devaluing the work of creative types for hundreds of years. (Thousands?)


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Dara England said:


> All the data I'm aware of points toward the current benefits of free. I've seen no data yet for the year 2015 and beyond, so the long-term benefits are up in the air. I'm not knocking free - it's a big part of how I make my living. But in these discussions, I'd like to see some acknowledgement of the uncertainty of the future. As good as free has been to me, I believe it's always worthwhile to discuss the pros and cons and not close our minds to opposing viewpoints. Blanket statements like "free is good" or "free is bad" smack too much of _the place that shall not be named_. I'd rather be constantly assessing and reassessing all my strategies, including free.


+ 1 Well said, Dara!


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## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Sarah Wynde said:


> Clearly, libraries have been a very, very bad invention. Those evil places, devaluing the work of creative types for hundreds of years. (Thousands?)


I know. Can you believe they let just ANYONE in there to read for free?

I've certainly never bought books after first discovering the series in a library/free setting *coughthat'showIfoundgameofthronesandnowownthemall*


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Saguahe said:


> Wondered when this might come up. Think about it for a while, what about Gutenberg books is different than something that has just been written and published? If you said "copyright" than you got it in one. Good for you!
> 
> These books, absolutely every last one of them have already left the market because they no longer are afforded the protection of copyright. Those books don't affect market because they're not part of it any more.


They absolutely are a part of the market because students are still required to read them in schools, and the schools no longer provide free copies for the students, so they have to be purchased somewhere, affecting the market.


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## AriadneW (Feb 16, 2013)

As a writer, I have found permafree invaluable in finding readers who have gone on to come back for more. As a reader, I have discovered some amazing authors through free books.

Either way, I think it's a great way to attract attention and provide a sample to give readers the chance to decide if they like your style or not.


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## Logan R. (May 13, 2011)

BTackitt said:


> They absolutely are a part of the market because students are still required to read them in schools, and the schools no longer provide free copies for the students, so they have to be purchased somewhere, affecting the market.


As a college student, I can vouch for this fact. The only thing free at my school is the air.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Saguahe said:


> That's a problem with belief then, isn't it? The data is out there.


And that data reflects Traditionally published books, NOT indie books, NOT small press books. Those were less expensive long before Amazon even entered the market with the Kindle. Find Data that correlates to INDIE/Small press and Free.

Everytime someone bemoans the fact that there are free books out there,they completely ignore the readers who chime in here and say Free helps us find new authors to BUY books from.

If FREE was soooo terribly BAAD, How do you explain indie authors like David Dalglish, who perma-freed the first book in his series The Weight of Blood (The Half-Orcs, Book 1) and is now doing yet another series based on that world. I say yet another because I think he has just started his 4th series set in that world.

Or are you saying his success at writing is what is actually detrimental to you, and just slapping the "Free is bad" argument out there to whine about how authors who use it are doing well, while you are not? (and this "you" is not directed at any one author in particular, it is a blanket "you" for those who want to justify and rally around their anit-free flag.)


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I can think of 3 authors that gave away their works.  Now at least one of them is a millionaire, one has a BIG movie deal and the third has been mentioned everywhere lately.  Oh wait, I saw a 4th that has sold millions free today.  

If you don't like free don't use it, but don't tell others what they should do.

Now since I love free books, I do read the freebies but if I like the style I will buy their books.  So let me ask you this.  Would you rather have $12 for 4 books or no sales.  If it hadn't for free I would not have found that author.  Oh wait I forgot I bought 3 other books by that author.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> Yeah, and that's the problem with a completely democratic market.





Saguahe said:


> And frankly, I hope to see some policing of distribution points in the future


There's too much freedom going on here. We need some restraints in place to stop people from doing what they want to do.

*eye roll*

I see the same attitude in the political arena: We'd all be better off if only some controlling authority prevented people from doing things I don't like.

It's B.S. there, just like it's B.S. here. Sorry, but being an Indie writer works because we have the freedom to do what we want. If it's not working for you, perhaps you should look inward, rather than blaming others.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> That's a problem with belief then, isn't it? The data is out there. The valuation of books, specifically long-form books in any genre has been affected negatively. And both Indies and traditional publishers recognize that the causal agent for this loss of value is, at least in part, the byproduct of a market flush of perma-free books. Why buy when you can get it free?


Three points:

- That's 16 months worth of data, which doesn't do much for the 'long-term' argument.

- It's for bestselling ebooks only. Hardly indicative of the whole market.

- It's focused on books with a price, not free ebooks. Do you have an actual correlation of data to show that more free ebooks = lower prices, or just an assumption?



Saguahe said:


> Your personal reasons for giving away your work are all your own. But unless you're a fully committed communist living contentedly in a self sufficient, completely contained commune, the utilitarian motivation for giving away your work is most likely to be you're hoping to grow your fan base for future works. And this action effects the value of both your work and the work of those around you. And that is a defection.


Defection to what, exactly? Look, some of us think that free ebooks are more likely to benefit both the reading community and the writing community in the long term. That they encourage more people to get into reading, and *increase* the pool of people buying ebooks. Slinging around words like 'communism' and 'defection' hardly counts as a logical argument or a useful contribution to the discussion.



Saguahe said:


> Facts of the matter aside, I know I'm arguing with a system of belief. You've said as much. And so I also hold out little hope of changing your mind, because, as I've said, the facts of the matter are aside. And I certainly can see the allure of defection, when it works, it usually works very well (for that individual and their line of works).


You'd have far better chance of changing someone's mind if you used logic and *useful* statistics.

Of course, one of the problems is that we have lots of data, but it's too general to be any good. Has the number of people buying ebooks increased since free became a big promotional tool? Sure. Has the number of people who own a Kindle increased since Amazon started price-matching to free? Indubitably. But that's not proof of my position, and you're going to be hampered likewise by the simple problem that correlation doesn't equal causation.

What we _can_ do is stop casting veiled insults at people who believe and think differently than ourselves, and at least consider the possibility that they're actually not acting out of purely selfish and self-aggrandising motivations. I could just throw my hands in the air and yell, "You're just upset that no one's buying _your_ books!" ... but that would be rude, disrespectful, and would require me making far too many unthinking assumptions.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh and as to the Free books at Gutenburg not affecting the market, How's this for an example. I have 2 kids in college RIGHT NOW. That makes finances TIGHT! If we were not able to get their classic books for free (at PG or or the 'Zon), then our book-buying discretionary funds would possibly be NON-existant. So instead of our being able to buy any books for pleasure reading, we wouldn't be able to. We are a family of 5, all HUGE readers. HUGE. Take a look at my sig line, I've already read 22 books this year with a goal of 300. Yes 300, and I will hit that, I have for the last 5+ years, and my oldest son reads MORE than I do. Yes, some were FREE, thank goodness, because of those free, I have found at least 3 new authors that I will continue reading, and have already paid for every other book in their list. 


(my e-book library JUST at Amazon is almost 8,000. I actually have 10 people on my account, 10 whose reading habits are quite varied and have a bit of overlap, but not as much as I would hope.)


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Price is a marketing strategy. It has nothing to do with value. Value is a personal judgment made by each consumer. We use price as a tool to entice buyers who will decide the value of what we offer for themselves. If the value is good and the price is fair, they'll come back for more. If the value is poor, they won't come back at any price.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

Saguahe said:


> Why buy when you can get it free?


Many people who get free books go on to buy more books from the same author. The evidence I've personally seen, and the stories related by other indie authors here, have proven that to be a FACT.

So you can ask 'Why buy when you can get it free?' all you want, but until you face the truth and realize that people ARE buying despite getting for free, your conclusions are going to be faulty.

One can make the argument that the market is being dominated by those who give away free books, and then go on to sell other books in their catalogue. But to whine about that, and to falsely claim that free is devaluing books, is simply ignoring the facts.

Making a few of my books free had increased the value of my other books, because free has made people want to buy them.


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

The loss leader _strategery_ seems to be very effective for a lot of authors out there... I'm currently giving it a go myself. Unfortunately I'm doing it wrong because I only have one book out, lol. But even if it's not as effective, it's still fun to watch.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Why buy when you can get it free?


I don't know. But there are a zillion people buying, so I guess there are a zillion reasons.


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't fear free - I fear ReDigi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReDigi


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I enjoy conversations between two sides of an issue, even when it's the dead horse that this one is. Where I have a problem is when someone tells my what *I* should be doing.

As far as I'm concerned, you have every right to argue that free is hurting the marketplace. I have every right to say that free has helped me immeasurably, which it has. You don't have the right to tell me I should stop using free.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

The way I see it is, when free stops being profitable for authors and retailers, they'll stop using it. And those people who expect books to be free will have to start paying for them again. 

Everything will sort itself out in the end.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

So... what do you guys decrying free books think of all the free apps, music and video out there? Because it's pretty much SOP now to be able to watch episodes of most hit shows online for free a week or so after the original airing--because it totally sells DvD box sets.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Free is bad for us all


Of course it is - in the long run. But you and I both know that that reality will never prevent some people from taking an undeniable short-term advantage (and it really* is* a short-term advantage to them, and that "short-term" can also turn out to be a little longer than some of us might be comfortable with!) at the longer term expense of the industry collectively.

When I saw your OP, I was instinctively expecting to be the only person here agreeing with you. So I did some of our fellow-members an injustice there: I'm relieved, pleased and slightly surprised to see at least three others (maybe four), above, also supporting your perspective. Maybe some writers did take "Economics 101", after all 



Saguahe said:


> Consensus? A vocal minority, unconcerned with the broader ramifications of their actions.


This. 

I can't add anything to that, except my full agreement.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I took Economics 101 and am a former CFO. I still haven't seen any proof of long-term harm.

This is what I see: I have the first in my two series as perma-free. Readers pick up one or the other. They read and love the book (I have a high conversion rate) They go on to buy everything I write, Like me on Facebook, and sign up for my newsletter. Those are autobuys. They're not going anywhere. They are now in place to acquire every book I write from this point forward, assuming I don't insult them by starting to write crap.

So where is the long-term damage that I'm missing? I have built a huge readership that will continue to purchase my product for years to come. When will this hurt me? Ten years? Fifty? A hundred?


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> When will this hurt me?


It may _never_ hurt you, Jana - but even if that's so it doesn't necessarily detract from the validity of the point I made _at all_.

This is why: _if enough people do it_, it will gradually make it very much more difficult for other authors, collectively, to sell the first in their putative future series rather than giving them away free. I think you know this, really, but perhaps you enjoy asking semi-rhetorical questions.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> It may _never_ hurt you, Jana - but even if that's so it doesn't necessarily detract from the validity of the point I made _at all_.
> 
> This is why: _if enough people do it_, it will gradually make it very much more difficult for other authors, collectively, to sell the first in their putative future series rather than giving them away free. I think you know this, really, but perhaps you enjoy asking semi-rhetorical questions.


I was being totally serious. I don't post on forums to play games. I'm far too busy to be amused by them.

So even if we assume what you say is true, and my free book and collection of readers makes it harder for a new series to launch without a free book, explain to me why I should care? That author has the same option I have of making one book free. We're on an equal playing field. I'm not privy to secret special marketing techniques that other authors can't access.

And even if my business decisions prevent someone else from ever making money (although I don't possibly see how), that is how capitalism works. I didn't sign up for the indie socialist society. Tell me why I should be concerned with someone else's business when no one else but me is concerned about mine? I really don't understand the point.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> So even if we assume what you say is true, and my free book and collection of readers makes it harder for a new series to launch without a free book, explain to me why I should care?


No reason at all, Jana.

I didn't say that you should care. That's up to you. (I happen to care, myself, but I'm not asking you to).

I simply agreed firmly and clearly with Saquahe who said that what sometimes passes for a "consensus" is in fact "a vocal minority, unconcerned with the broader ramifications of their actions" (his words, which I quoted in my post above).

I have no problem at all with your being part of it. I'm not asking you to change your mind. I'm not telling you to be concerned with the broader ramifications of your actions. That's your business, not mine.

Like you, I keep fairly busy and don't have time for an extended debate. I just wanted to drop in to the thread to support the OP and those three or four others in agreement with him, so that others would see that he *does* indeed have some support. So please excuse me if this is my last post on this subject for now. Be my guest: have the last word - "knock yourself out", as they say!


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

nomesque said:


> Three points:
> 
> - That's 16 months worth of data, which doesn't do much for the 'long-term' argument.
> 
> ...


The prices also reflect that lost antitrust/price-fixing suit, after which having some prices drop was inevitable.

The list also doesn't reflect the total number of ebooks sold. If you're selling twice as many books at a 30% discount....


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> I simply agreed firmly and clearly with Saquahe who said that what sometimes passes for a "consensus" is in fact "a vocal minority, unconcerned with the broader ramifications of their actions" (his words, which I quoted in my post above).


I would still like to know what dire thing it is that you think the vocal minority is going to cause. I am not trying to be argumentative. I seriously do not see what tragedy you think will come of this. Loss leaders have been used by almost every retail market in the world. Why would the book industry collapse from the same use? Can anyone explain their fear, in detail?


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

http://www.baenebooks.com/c-1-free-library.aspx

Has been around as long as I can remember. Baen is known for being a publisher of good SF. If they see nothing wrong with free, why is it such a threat to anyone else?


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Just to add to what Jana has been saying, the entire reason someone gives away a free book is to get the reader to try it...and hopefully buy lots of other paid stuff.  Since the whole point is to get them hooked so they buy all the other books, I'm not sure what all the concern is about.  

It is true that the more people offer free books, the less effective it will generally be for the sole reason that it will be harder for those free books to stand out from a larger pool.  But no serious writer who considers this their livelihood wants to give away all their books.  So I don't really see how it hurts the industry much, since free samples are probably driving a huge number of follow-up paid sales.

FYI, I've never had a free book (though I do 99 cent sales fairly often with a series #1 book), so I'm not defending what I do.  But I see the sense in the strategy, and I would do it if I thought it made sense at a given time.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a trilogy. I want to earn money from it.

I could make each book $2.99 or $3.99. I might sell a few copies.

Or I could make the first book free, and sell book 2 and 3 for $4.99 each.

Guess which makes me the most money and gets me the most sales?

I think the big mistake people who rile against free are making is to consider books given away as lost sales. They are not, because the vast majority of those people who download the book free wouldn't have bought it anyway. That's what you want to do with the tactic: getting people to read the book who would normally not have bought it, then liking the book and buying the other books.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I have a trilogy. I want to earn money from it.
> 
> I could make each book $2.99 or $3.99. I might sell a few copies.
> 
> ...


 Looks like you have been looking at my amazon account. I spend about$20 a month on books that I would not have found without the author having one free. 
Before anyone argues that $20 is not much, how many readers shop like I do? I bet there are several hundred at least.


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## nomesque (Apr 12, 2010)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I would still like to know what dire thing it is that you think the vocal minority is going to cause. I am not trying to be argumentative. I seriously do not see what tragedy you think will come of this. Loss leaders have been used by almost every retail market in the world. Why would the book industry collapse from the same use? Can anyone explain their fear, in detail?


This is what bemuses me, too. I've seen the 'if people download books for free, they'll _expect_ books for free, and eventually never buy books at all' argument before... I haven't seen much proof of it, though. I know a lot of readers. Many of them download free books. Most of them - when they have the money - will quite happily drop $15 on the latest novel by their favourite author. Sure, I get that that's anecdotal and biased evidence. But I haven't seen any evidence showing that per ereader-owner, book _sales_ are diminishing. I haven't seen any evidence showing that the average person is spending less per month on books/ebooks than they did 5 years ago. If anything, my impression has been that the book industry as a whole - print, ebooks, traditional publishers, indie publishers, self-published authors - is making _more_ money than it did 5 years ago. A free ebook downloaded onto a smartphone to while away a lunch hour can lure an occasional reader into buying a series, then downloading the Kindle app onto a tablet to read some more, then buying a few more books.

Economics is complicated. I don't think any of us can know for sure how freebies will affect the market over the next decade or so. But I take umbrage at people claiming that those of us offering freebies don't give a d*mn about the rest of you. A lot of the people who have been most active in helping others here, over the years, have had (or still do have) ebooks listed for free (I'm not claiming to be one of those - I come and go and occasionally have something vaguely useful to offer, that's about it). On the other hand, those most vociferous against us and our 'selfishness' rarely seem to be people whose names have stuck in my head as being particularly active and helpful in this writer community. Sure, outside of it you might be awesome, awesome people. I'm not disputing that. But if you're going to complain that we don't have the interests of the book industry or other writers at heart, make sure you put your money and time where your mouth is.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

I remember back in the old days when the ability to get free books from the library destroyed all bookstores. Do we really want to repeat that?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

OK, from a reader perspective: expectations.

Have you ever tried reading only free books, just because there are more free books available than you could possibly read in your lifetime?

Try it, then, because I did. Soon enough, you find that one thing to read is not like another thing to read. Books are NOT interchangeable. The stuff you want is never free, and after a while of reading only free stuff, you get sick of the fragmented nature of it.


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

Can we please re-name this thread: "I don't like free books so stop offering them, guise!!11!!  "



Glenn Wood said:


> Not only does it devalue the actual work


Whoa, that's a nice _opinion_ you've got there. I'd almost argue that my permafrees are more valuable, in a way, because they funnel sales to my other books so effectively.



> - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for -


Nope. When I make my books free, it's because I want to give new readers a chance to read one of my stories without any investment other than time. When they're finished with the free one, I feel confident that they'll go on to buy the rest. And it's working, too.



> but we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc.


This is a generalization. There's always been a segment of the population that has expected free stuff. And then there's this other thing you may or may not be familiar with. It's called piracy? Yeah. It exists. So anyone who wants creative work for free can likely get ahold of it anyhow. The free books are for paying customers.



> Free is now officially overused and it's killing us.


Free is very common. Is it killing us? I don't think so, personally. I only started selling when the first in my series went free. I'm nearing 500 sales in my second month of publishing. Somehow I think that the freebie has been beneficial.



> Of course, you got thousands of downloads, the consumers had to do nothing more than push a button to get something you presumably put hundreds of hours of work into.


Ok, a couple of things here. The beauty of the permafree thing is that it IS easy for people to download your book. That they can do it with the click of a button makes it SUPER convenient, and is a benefit to us authors. I like free stuff, but I'm only willing to jump through so many hoops to get it. One-click, though? Sign me up! It's an impulse thing, and it sells a lot of books on the back of that first impulsive freebie click.

Second, I write books. They do not take hundreds of hours to write. Maybe yours do, and that's cool. But this idea that our books are, like, literal _babies_ that we've invested our souls into is, if you ask me, sentimental BS. It's irrational. I consider my books to be products, and make decisions based on what'll make them sell better, rather than how "hard" I worked, or how many nights I spent as a tortured artiste. The freebie works to this end.



> Do not see this as a validation of your product, people will take anything if they don't have to pay for it.


Oh, it's common knowledge that a lot of freebies don't get read. But some of them do. Other times, people flippantly download something that looks interesting and it sits on their kindle for a year before they get to it. The point is, yeah, people might only jump in because it's free. But then they might find they like it.



> There is an argument that if you have a series of books then give away the first one and, if they like it, they'll buy the rest of the series. They might, or they might just look for the next free book, because god knows there'll be another along in a minute, or they might just wait until you get desperate enough to offer the next in the series for free.


Nice assumption. But no, at least on my end, I only ever offer the first book free. Those who are/were in Select have reported awful results from making all of their books free in a series; indeed, some readers in such cases would simply wait until all of the books were on a free promotion to download them. This is bad business, IMO, and not at all the same as simply making the first in your series free. And again, making the first in my series free is working for _me_ in a big way. YMMV.



> *I can see a point soon when creatives who value their work will stop doing it because the amount of effort required does not equal the reward* - sure there will always be starving artists out there but the *professionals who actually want to make a living out of their work will find it impossible to compete.*
> While competition is as fierce as it is going free won't stop but how about we put a stake in the ground (he implores naively) and price your book on special for .99 cents, at least that way we are saying our work has value, pay for it.


Right. See, a writer who wants to make it in this climate has to be willing to experiment and adapt. Permafree is a useful tool right now. Will it always be so? Maybe not. And the day it's no longer worthwhile to me, I'll seek out something else. I happen to be a hard-working writer who's passionate about growing their business, however. I'm hoping to someday make a living out of this, and right now, permafree is helping me reach that goal.


> Rant over.


Thank goodness.

I'm sorry to say this, but threads like these always smack of "_My books aren't selling guys; stop using these tools available to you so that we can even the playing field. It's not fair._" OR "_My books aren't selling, so let me complain about how it's someone else's fault. Geeze, if only people would stop using this awesome promotional tool, then perhaps my under-appreciated tomes (that apparently take decades to write) would get noticed!_"

If you don't like what other business-owners are doing with their businesses, you've got a couple options:

1) Ignore it and do things your own way.
2) Drop out and take up a new sort of business with a "friendlier" marketplace.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

It’s a shame some people reacted so badly, because it’s easy to see how someone could come to this conclusion. I guess some only have two speeds, outrage and offence. But I digress.

You’re coming to this conclusion because you’re thinking that it’s possible for sellers in a free market to maintain a particular price. Unfortunately, it’s not. New entrants to a market will almost always try to gain a foothold by undercutting the competition. Once they’ve established themselves, they’ll start operating at a profitable price or they’ll go out of business. The tricky part with e-books, of course, is that people can just give them away by the millions.

Anyway, you’re right that people are “devaluing” books by giving them away—in a sense of the word “devalue” that means “making them appear to have no value/creating the expectation that books should be free"—but it’s not something you can stop without price controls. That means the state must step in. I can't give you advice, however; I can only point out that businesses combat this by creating valuable products--i.e., products people want to pay money for.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Anyway, you're right that people are "devaluing" books by giving them away-in a sense of the word "devalue" that means "making them appear to have no value/creating the expectation that books should be free"-but it's not something you can stop without price controls.


This assumes that readers are too stupid to know that a free book is a promotion/marketing tool. I always find it works best to not insult your customers/readers by treating them like they're stupid . I have never once thought a book is free because it has no value or thought that all books should be free because some are.

Readers who think all books should be free already exist. They pirate. If no books were ever legitimately offered for free via retailers or libraries, these people would still exist. We didn't create them by offering books for free. Offering free books on Amazon and other retailers gives paying customers a chance to discover writers who are new to them.

You know what devalues my work? Pricing it in a way that ensures no one reads it and that I have to have a job outside of writing and publishing. I choose to value my work by putting the first book in my trilogy free so that thousands of people read it and then thousands go on to pay $5.99 for each of the next two books. By having the first book free, I've told the marketplace that I value my writing and time enough that I've set up a pricing structure that ensures I can write and publish full-time.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to devalue your work by not being able to make a living off of it, don't use free . Personally, my work is worth full-time pay, and I'm going to price it in a way that reflects that belief. I think others should do the same, whether that includes using free or not.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

EelKat said:


> This is the way I see it as well.
> 
> I'm still on the fence about going free with my eBooks. I might someday, but I might not. I haven't yet, but the main reason I haven't is because I've only got 4 short stories up on Kindle so far, and I kind of want to wait until I have at least 12 or more up, before I set one of them to free. My reason for waiting, is because of what Suzanna Medeiros was saying in her post. I mean, I'm fairly well known in the local market (basically about a 5 town radius) but in the general mass market I'm an unknown. I know, as a reader myself, I'm more likely to buy an author I've read before. I'll hesitate before buying an author I've never heard of before. I don't know why, but I do and I know other readers do the same thing.
> 
> ...


Wow! That's longer than some of the books I give away for free!


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

caethesfaron said:


> This assumes that readers are too stupid to know that a free book is a promotion/marketing tool. I always find it works best to not insult your customers/readers by treating them like they're stupid. I have never once thought a book is free because it has no value or thought that all books should be free because some are.


Yes, that was exactly it. I think people who read books are stupid. But I just couldn't think of the right way of saying, "Look, people who read books are stupid" and I took the roundabout way. So thanks for helping me be clear and concise!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Every time the topic of free books blows up on here, I set another one free.  

I'm up to 6 permafreebies now. I just don't need all those ebooks taking up space in my garage, ya know?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

WHDean said:


> Yes, that was exactly it. I think people who read books are stupid. But I just couldn't think of the right way of saying, "Look, people who read books are stupid" and I took the roundabout way. So thanks for helping me be clear and concise!


It may not be your intent, but it's the only conclusion that bears your logic out.


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## J.D.W. (Nov 10, 2008)

I love you Dalya!


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Yes, that was exactly it. I think people who read books are stupid. But I just couldn't think of the right way of saying, "Look, people who read books are stupid" and I took the roundabout way. So thanks for helping me be clear and concise!


I never said that you were calling anyone stupid . I was saying that the assumption that readers will devalue free work assumes that they are too stupid to realize that it's a marketing and promotional tool.

Haven't you seen the classic newbie writer mistake of over explaining things because they don't trust the readers to get what they're saying without spelling it out in explicit detail and repeating it? As if they're assuming their readers are too stupid to catch subtlety? I know I've made that mistake. One of the difficult lessons for new writers is to trust your readers to get what you're saying. If you point out to a new writer that their writing assumes the reader is stupid, are you saying they're calling their readers stupid or that that's their intent? No, you're saying that they need to approach their writing assuming their audience is intelligent enough to get what they're writing. I'm saying the same thing with marketing.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> It may not be your intent, but it's the only conclusion that bears your logic out.





caethesfaron said:


> I never said that you were calling anyone stupid . I was saying that the assumption that readers will devalue free work assumes that they are too stupid to realize that it's a marketing and promotional tool.
> 
> Haven't you seen the classic newbie writer mistake of over explaining things because they don't trust the readers to get what they're saying without spelling it out in explicit detail and repeating it? As if they're assuming their readers are too stupid to catch subtlety? I know I've made that mistake. One of the difficult lessons for new writers is to trust your readers to get what you're saying. If you point that out to a new writer that their writing assumes the reader is stupid, are you saying they're calling their readers stupid or that that's their intent? No, you're saying that they need to approach their writing assuming their audience is intelligent enough to get what they're writing. I'm saying the same thing with marketing.


Is it so unthinkable that you both misunderstood the point? I mean the only possible interpretation--"the only conclusion that bears [my] logic out"--is that I think people who read books are stupid--or ignorant about the function of freebies? Maybe I meant that I could see _why the OP would think _that giving something away devalues it. If people get used to paying, say, $50 for covers and someone comes along as says he charges $500, wouldn't that person have a harder time persuading people of the value, even though his covers were nicer? Is the only conclusion from this example that I think people who buy covers are stupid? It doesn't matter if it happens in practice. What matters is that it's reasonable to reach the conclusion that this will happen--just as the OP did with free books--even it's a mistaken conclusion in certain respects.


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## C.F. (Jan 6, 2011)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> Every time the topic of free books blows up on here, I set another one free.
> 
> I'm up to 6 permafreebies now. I just don't need all those ebooks taking up space in my garage, ya know?


Oh, is that how it works? Off to start a new thread...


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## EllenWaite (Dec 4, 2013)

What are you guys doing charging _money_ for your books to begin with? You guys write for the money? You want to make a _living_ at this? How _vulgar_.

Hmmph. I write for the sake of _art_!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Try before you buy is a very common strategy. 
I run across ebook readers all the time that have no idea they can get ebooks for free. They've never thought to check for newsletters for ebooks. All they want and know is—they like to read and they're more likely to try an unknown if the first book by an author is free.

There are a  million ways to make free work. And if it doesn't work for you, you've probably lost nothing anyway.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

WHDean said:


> Is it so unthinkable that you both misunderstood the point? I mean the only possible interpretation--"the only conclusion that bears [my] logic out"--is that I think people who read books are stupid--or ignorant about the function of freebies? Maybe I meant that I could see _why the OP would think _that giving something away devalues it. If people get used to paying, say, $50 for covers and someone comes along as says he charges $500, wouldn't that person have a harder time persuading people of the value, even though his covers were nicer? Is the only conclusion from this example that I think people who buy covers are stupid? It doesn't matter if it happens in practice. What matters is that it's reasonable to reach the conclusion that this will happen--just as the OP did with free books--even it's a mistaken conclusion in certain respects.


"It may not be your intent," said I. Meaning 'I don't think you think they're stupid, but there's no way they actually thing this thing unless they are stupid--which they are most assuredly not'.

Literally no non-idiot thinks all things should be free because some things are free. Those who do will pirate or steal them anyway.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> It may not be your intent, but it's the only conclusion that bears your logic out.


Oh, nonsense. He was pointing out that getting something for free all the time *may* set up the expectation that that thing should always be free. Sort of like how I spent the first 40some years of my life living places where trash-collection was free, and now I'm royally annoyed to be living someplace where you have to contract with a private company for the service. To my mind, trash collection is something that is "supposed to be" free ... but the reason I think that way is that I've been trained to think that way by a lifetime of getting the service for free.

In the case of books, I see no sign this is happening. I don't think WH was suggesting is it happening. Rather, he was pointing out that it is not a bizarre or outlandish concern to have.

WH is also right about price controls. In this case, the "government" is Amazon. I'd put money on the idea that once free books stop making money for Amazon (and also, therefore, for us), Amazon will put a stop to or cut way back on free books. I think the fact that Amazon continues to allow free is the best evidence we have that, overall, free is not harming the profitability of the ebook market.


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> WH is also right about price controls. In this case, the "government" is Amazon. I'd put money on the idea that once free books stop making money for Amazon (and also, therefore, for us), Amazon will put a stop to or cut way back on free books. I think the fact that Amazon continues to allow free is the best evidence we have that, overall, free is not harming the profitability of the ebook market.


Becca, I like the way you think. Amazon has been amazing for us self-pubbers, but let's never lose sight of the fact that they are in business to make a profit. I agree with your premise: offering free books _makes_ them money, _and us._


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Sort of like how I spent the first 40some years of my life living places where trash-collection was free, and now I'm royally annoyed to be living someplace where you have to contract with a private company for the service. To my mind, trash collection is something that is "supposed to be" free ... but the reason I think that way is that I've been trained to think that way by a lifetime of getting the service for free.


In your defense privatized sanitation outside of rural areas is how a community tells the universe in general that they're done making good choices.


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## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Wow, you take a break from KB to pack up more of your house for a move, and rest assured that the stink sandwich you left hours ago will gain new layers of crap in your absence. Folks, lets face facts, this isn't a debate. This is two dogmas colliding. I am not even the individual who originated this thread, yet I seem to be drawing a lot of ire simple because I expressed a contrary opinion.

Much of my opinion comes from an observation made to me at a recent convention (scroll on down to the last topic if you're interested) in which a colleague who writes in my genre likened freebies to the GroupOn effect. The object lesson being that many merchants who tried GroupOn, giving away something or deeply discounting it, found that they only got customers for the period of the giveaway. When they stopped giving things away, people found another outlet.

It might be possible to mine Amazon's sales information by watching review patterns or monitoring who views what, but that's a job for data scientist. I've got more books to write. And like many critical business drivers in the writing and publishing world the topic of "freebies" is something we can only speculate about.

Amazon, and many other distributors, allow try before you buy regardless of price. Read the first couple of chapters of a book you might like, get a Premium membership and become part of the lending system. Whatever, the distributer gives the customer that option. Giving the whole thing away seems like a feature flush to me.

It's probably fair for us to agree that we disagree on this topic and leave it at that. Let me extend the virtual olive branch and apologize if you feel that I've rustled your feathers unnecessarily. I am doing just great within the paid ranks of Indie authors. My library is growing and I'm gaining new readers every day. I will give freebies away, but only in limited quantities or for a specific purpose. That action has to pay. But that's me, it may not be you.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Wants to move to where trash collection is free.  Here it is billed with water and sewer and park donation.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> In your defense privatized sanitation outside of rural areas is how a community tells the universe in general that they're done making good choices.


HEAR HEAR!!!!!! <grumble>

ETA:


cinisajoy said:


> Wants to move to where trash collection is free. Here it is billed with water and sewer and park donation.


"Park donation"? (Do I even want to know about this? Sounds depressing.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> WH is also right about price controls. In this case, the "government" is Amazon. I'd put money on the idea that once free books stop making money for Amazon (and also, therefore, for us), Amazon will put a stop to or cut way back on free books. I think the fact that Amazon continues to allow free is the best evidence we have that, overall, free is not harming the profitability of the ebook market.


And, in fact, Amazon already put a constraint on free books by changing the rules for affiliates that promote free books. Some affiliates have stopped promoting them or cut way back.

Betsy


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

They put a $1 donation to help upgrade the city parks.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> They put a $1 donation to help upgrade the city parks.


Hm. Guess that's not so bad.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> This is why: if enough people do it, it will gradually make it very much more difficult for other authors, collectively, to sell the first in their putative future series rather than giving them away free. I think you know this, really, but perhaps you enjoy asking semi-rhetorical questions.


If lots of series are introduced by free books, it may become very difficult for people to sell introductory books. Thats plausible.

So what? Why is that a problem? It simply says that goods at a lower price make it difficult to sell similar goods at a higher price.

Producers have a long history of trying to control other producers so they don't have to compete. That puts more money in their pockets for less effort. Free markets and competition make that difficult to do.

God Bless self-interest, for it leaves the collective in the dust.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> If lots of series are introduced by free books, it may become very difficult for people to sell introductory books. Thats plausible.
> 
> So what? Why is that a problem? It simply says that goods at a lower price make it difficult to sell similar goods at a higher price.
> 
> ...


From now on I think I will refrain posting in these threads regarding Free because Terrence has the eerie ability to post exactly what I am thinking most of the time.


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm still working on my first novel, so I can only speak as a reader.

I do not download free books from someone unless I have already bought and liked the authors work. And even then, its only ever short fiction. Its probably a subconscious reaction, but for me free does not scream quality. I have so damn many books to read that I won't waste my time on stuff people have to give away. If its some short fiction from an author I love, sure, then its a nice gift.

For this reason, I doubt its something I will chase when I do have some books out. I plan on doing some short fiction in the same universe, which I'd be okay with giving away, but not a full novel.

I read a post by Michael J Sullivan (an author I admire) some time back that I found myself nodding to: http://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/12/free-advice/


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Is this thing still going? 



Terrence OBrien said:


> If lots of series are introduced by free books, it may become very difficult for people to sell introductory books. Thats plausible.
> So what? Why is that a problem?


It's a problem for writers who don't write series.


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## Sarah Wynde (Apr 7, 2013)

When I was a kid, my parents couldn't afford to buy books. We got toys and books twice a year, on Christmas and our birthdays, and that was it. Once a week, though, every Saturday, rain or shine, winter or summer, we went to the library, and I brought home an armful of books. Free books.  

When I was in 6th grade, Anne McCaffrey released a new hardcover, one of the dragon series. We were at the mall, I saw it in the bookstore window, and I spent the next hour sitting on the floor reading the first three chapters while my parents shopped. My parents bought me that book. I still have it on my bookshelf. The only reason--absolutely the only reason--that Anne McCaffrey got that sale and the dozens that followed as I grew up and started earning my own money is because I'd read her books at the library for free and fallen in love with them.

Free books open a door, and sometimes that door turns the person who walks through it into a reader. And more readers is the biggest win the writing community can possibly get. Our competition is not our fellow writer's free book -- it's television, movies, video games, youtube, Facebook and probably Kindleboards.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Saguahe said:


> That's a problem with belief then, isn't it? The data is out there.


A downward trend in prices is not the same thing as devaluation, especially when the prices are coming down from the point at which they were artificially set by the agency model and collusion.



> The valuation of books, specifically long-form books in any genre has been affected negatively. And both Indies and traditional publishers recognize that the causal agent for this loss of value is, at least in part, the byproduct of a market flush of perma-free books. Why buy when you can get it free?


The only author who has to worry about a reader saying, "Why buy more of this author's books when I got one for free? I can just wait for more to be offered for free" is the author who's not very good at writing.

If you're writing books that stand out from the pack, there's virtually no way the huge majority of the free-samplers will be able to talk themselves into waiting for your next free promotion. They'll buy now. That's the beauty of LOWER prices (hello, Digital Book World): they encourage impulse buying.

I sort of have the suspicion that the folks who are nervous about free books are the ones who have a tough time feeling confidence about their own writing. It's an understandable thing, so I'm not judging, believe me. But really the free model hinges on an author's belief that their free book will be good enough to stimulate impulse-buying all the rest of their books...which means an author has to believe that their book is going to have a very high value to the free-downloader -- i.e., it's really d*mn good. Those authors aren't worried that people might not want to pay full price for the rest of their books. They _know _readers will, so nothing about this model intimidates them.

p.s. Just read Saguahe's comment about the GroupOn effect. It's been 3+ years with free ebooks...if we were going to see the GroupOn effect, we'd see it by now. I don't know enough about the GroupOn thing to know what sank it for those businesses, but it's apparently not having the same impact on ebooks. People have been doing permafree and seeing it drive sales, not diminish them, for years now. While it's totally true that we don't know what may happen in the future, it's rather illogical to say, "We have this data that shows people who get a free ebook tend to come back and spend money on more ebooks, and this data that shows GroupOn tanked...therefore, eventually free ebooks will tank just like GroupOn." The evidence doesn't appear to indicate that ebooks are going to go the way of GroupOn. They might, but that would be a surprise twist and not something one would expect to see given the way the last several years have gone.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> But really the free model hinges on an author's belief that their free book will be good enough to stimulate impulse-buying all the rest of their books...which means an author has to believe that their book is going to have a very high value to the free-downloader -- i.e., it's really d*mn good. Those authors aren't worried that people might not want to pay full price for the rest of their books. They _know _readers will, so nothing about this model intimidates them.
> 
> p.s. Just read Saguahe's comment about the GroupOn effect. It's been 3+ years with free ebooks...if we were going to see the GroupOn effect, we'd see it by now. I don't know enough about the GroupOn thing to know what sank it for those businesses, but it's apparently not having the same impact on ebooks.


Put these two together and you really have the same dynamics in place. Perhaps the restaurants that did Groupons simply weren't that appealing to the customers who bought them, so they never returned.

No one is arguing that a sect of the population exists who is budget conscience all the way to frustratingly cheap. All one has to do is try and sell something on Craigslist to see that. But a lot of customers have to be like me as well. I use a discount to try something I probably wouldn't otherwise. If it exceeds expectation (which is usually low to middling), I will probably be back for more.


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## MonaM (Jan 13, 2014)

Quiss said:


> Is this thing still going?
> 
> It's a problem for writers who don't write series.


It seems like the whole model is shifting heavily toward series, whether the first one's free or not, though.


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## Randy M. (Aug 8, 2011)

For me now it's all about series. This year I will attempt to write five books, and each will be a continuation of an existing novel. I told my wife to shoot me if I started to write a story independent of my other novels. Maybe that was a mistake, but I now feel strongly about the lure of a series to attract and retain readers. Eventually, I hope to have the first book of each either perma-free or 99 cents.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

sockmerchant said:


> For this reason, I doubt its something I will chase when I do have some books out. I plan on doing some short fiction in the same universe, which I'd be okay with giving away, but not a full novel.


If anyone were to ever click on my posts from mid-2012, before I published my first book, they would find these exact sentiments from me. I had worked so long (way too long) on that first book and I didn't know if I would ever write another. I couldn't imagine _ever_ giving that book away.

I've now given it away more than 120,000 times.

My perspective has changed.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

> It seems like the whole model is shifting heavily toward series, whether the first one's free or not, though.


That is true; most of my sales this month were from my novel series. It was my best sales in over a year so I think I am doing something right. I have three series and have one novel published on the fourth series, another being proofread, and another started.

I sell the first novel in the series for $4.99 which is the same price as the other ones. I think giving the first novel away is not necesary since series are selling so well.

I stopped writing short stories or standalone books. The money is in series now. 

Franklin Eddy


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

MonaM said:


> It seems like the whole model is shifting heavily toward series, whether the first one's free or not, though.


Not necessarily series. Just multiple books.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I just want to jump in here and say that I don't think you have to write series (as in, same characters.) My books are related but stand alone. Definitely no cliffhangers, each about a separate couple, are often read out of order. In one of the most popular, the characters from the past books appear on literally one page. I've had lots of readers say how tired they are of cliffhangers, serials, etc. Not saying not to write them, but I don't think people should feel that they have to. I like taking new risks and have to stay fresh, personally would get bored writing book after book about the same people. So if that's you, too, I say, change away! 

I also don't have permafree, though I do Select "free days" on some books. It's been very effective, though I won't try to convince anyone. All the good arguments have been made by others above.


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

I received an email from a reader this morning telling me that she'd read my freebie and is now "completely hooked". She's planning to read the rest of my books and wanted to know about my future release dates (yikes!) She also asked me to manually add her to my mailing list because the signup form isn't working for her (what's up with that, Mailchimp?) 

Free can be a very good thing. I *loved* my local library growing up. My parents were immigrants and weren't big readers, so my three siblings and I used to haunt the library because they rarely purchased books for us (aside from some Scholastic books from their school program). Getting the majority of my books for free growing up didn't lead me to devalue books at all ... quite the contrary, it lead to me and my three siblings becoming obsessed with them. I still download freebies, but I buy just as many, if not more. There are definitely many others like me out there.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

MonaM said:


> Don't forget the best-known purveyor of free books there is - the local library. I get more free books there than I ever have or will from Amazon, and yes, it has resulted in my buying books. Not all of them, mind you, or I'd need to buy another house...
> 
> That leads me to my main objection to the OP. Free isn't bad for 'everyone.' For many readers, it's an ideal way to try out another author, especially if their library has a limited (or nonexistent) selection of ebooks.


To me, comparing library free to Amazon free never quite seemed like comparing apples with apples. A library generally buys the book, there is a limit to how many people can read the book at one time, it is not as convenient, etc. Limited free doesn't have the same negative consequences on the industry as unlimited free.

I do think free on Amazon, for example, can, does, and will have negative consequences on the industry, but I think we are also seeing that once it starts impacting people on the personal level, they start changing their behavior again.

My point is that is one of the few ways people will change their behavior concerning free. The other is if an outside force puts limitations in place. I think the person who really wants to see a change will have better luck influencing that outside force than influencing those who are currently reaping the benefits of free.

Jodi


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

To those that keep saying libraries  are not the same. Little food for thought,  there are libraries in most towns so yes 1000 people could be reading the same book free.
Now here is the other point, I can find the BIG names in the library, but could I find a Rosalind James, a Terrence O'Brien, a Jana DeLeon, or any one else in this thread?
So without Amazon and free I would not have found them.  I think I got Rosalind free but not positive.  Even if i paid 99 cents for her still cheaper than going to the library. That would cost me $2 for the bus ride.


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## Weirdling (Jun 25, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> I sort of have the suspicion that the folks who are nervous about free books are the ones who have a tough time feeling confidence about their own writing.


I think this goes to the books are not widgets theory? As a writer, I hate to confess it, but sometimes books are a little like widgets to me as a reader. I think this because books can be like widgets until one book hooks the reader on the author/series. I treat books this way when I buy them at yard sales.

I picked up about 500 traditional Regency romance books at a yard sale; they were very cheap--I think the math worked out to about 5c or 10c each. While these books were not free, I think the analogy will hold, since they came a few pennies away from it. Anyway, for the most part, I will read one book after the other and not buy those authors' other works, even if I enjoyed the works. Why? Because there are still hundreds more to read and I am likely to enjoy them too. A very, very small select few will hook me so strongly I will buy more. Cheap (or free if one wants to carry the analogy) worked there. But then again, I might have also found those same authors from another source, such as Goodreads reviews, recommendations, an online article, or even browsing in the bookstore; I would have been hooked no matter how I found that author. Also you would think since I have 500 very cheap books (books it will take me well over a decade to read), I would stop looking for traditional Regency romance at yard sales. I don't. I still snap 'em up. May even read one of those sooner than the 500, because of the newness of it or because of the book itself. So for the most part, these Regencies are (I am ashamed to admit) like widgets to me.

On the other hand, some books are no longer widgets for me. I do collect fantasy (and like genres) at yard sales too, but after a decade or so of reading almost exclusively fantasy (Regencies are a recent addiction), I am very, very, very picky with my fantasy. So I do actively look on Goodreads and such for books, though I still get yard sale finds on the off chance I can find one I will like (I very rarely do). But anymore, I give those yard sale finds a chapter (or less) to hook me, and if I don't like what I read, well I only wasted 25c or 50c. I can trade it in or donate it somewhere, so it is not a complete waste. But even though I may enjoy one of the carefully selected finds on, it doesn't mean I will enjoy it enough to want to read more. Now that I know what I am looking for and how to find them, there are still enough options out there that I am not hurting for choices. And since I am paying more for these, they have to hook me hard to make me buy more. (However, once I am hooked, I do tend to make a complete library of that person's works--hello, Jim Butcher, hello Georgette Heyer, hello Barbara Metzger, hello Diana Wynne Jones, hello Patrick O'Brian).

Long example short, though one can argue books are not widgets, they can definitely be widgets, too.

Jodi


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Just don't write a widget book.

Problem solved.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Quiss said:


> It's a problem for writers who don't write series.


I agree there will be winners and losers in any market. Some producers will fail. But history shows others step up to take the place of those who leave the market. The products keep flowing.

So, I don't see a market, economic, or social problem. This is how a healthy market works.



> Just don't write a widget book.


I have always supported the widget idea of books. I think it operates at the level of consumer selection as a function of the consumers needs. At that point, the consumer really doesn't know the unique aspects of each book. He lacks the information. He has to buy it and read it to know it isn't a widget. (Thats probably what Nancy Pelosi recommends.)


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Glenn Wood said:


> Personal opinion but I think the freemium model is detrimental to all creative industries. Not only does it devalue the actual work - by making it free you are essentially saying it's not worth paying for - but we are also creating a society of consumers who EXPECT to get creative work for free, books, music, films etc. Now, I understand the concept of a loss leader (I work in advertising after all), which is a legitimate selling tool as long as it is for a limited time and not overused - Free is now officially overused and it's killing us. I see people on the boards here who run a promotion where they give away their book then get excited when they get thousands of downloads. Of course, you got thousands of downloads, the consumers had to do nothing more than push a button to get something you presumably put hundreds of hours of work into. Do not see this as a validation of your product, people will take anything if they don't have to pay for it.
> There is an argument that if you have a series of books then give away the first one and, if they like it, they'll buy the rest of the series. They might, or they might just look for the next free book, because god knows there'll be another along in a minute, or they might just wait until you get desperate enough to offer the next in the series for free.
> I can see a point soon when creatives who value their work will stop doing it because the amount of effort required does not equal the reward - sure there will always be starving artists out there but the professionals who actually want to make a living out of their work will find it impossible to compete.
> While competition is as fierce as it is going free won't stop but how about we put a stake in the ground (he implores naively) and price your book on special for .99 cents, at least that way we are saying our work has value, pay for it.
> Rant over.


Really? I could not possibly count the number of new things - which I now purchase with enthusiasm - that I discovered in the form of a free sample. Even the staff at our local delicatessen offer free samples of anything new that they bring into stock. Many periodicals offer a free trial period - the same for a lot of software. I check both the free and the paid top 100 on Amazon regularly and download from both. Not often, but still regularly enough to appreciate the free offers, I find a free book that I enjoy to the extent that I will pay for further work from that author.

You have an opinion - as do I. Mine does not agree with yours.


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## RTEdwins (Jan 16, 2014)

It is only bad if money is the only thing you care about. If sharing your art with people, touching lives through your expression, or taking pride in the fact that you wrote a book at all is what you are after, then giving some or all of it away for free isn't a big deal.

There is more to life and art than money, friend.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

RTEdwins said:


> There is more to life and art than money, friend.


Luxury.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

RTEdwins said:


> It is only bad if money is the only thing you care about.


It's not even bad then, if you know how to use it as part of a marketing strategy.


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## RTEdwins (Jan 16, 2014)

Ty Johnston said:


> It's not even bad then, if you know how to use it as part of a marketing strategy.


Completely agree because I understand and utilize that strategy (Getting royalty payments frequently because of my Free marketing strategy) but I wanted to address the OP's preoccupation with the monetary value of it all.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

RTEdwins said:


> It is only bad if money is the only thing you care about. If sharing your art with people, touching lives through your expression, or taking pride in the fact that you wrote a book at all is what you are after, then giving some or all of it away for free isn't a big deal.
> 
> There is more to life and art than money, friend.


I wasn't going to post in this thread but had to reply to this as this kind of stuff drives me bonkers. The logic of this is flawed because -

Unless you are independently wealthy, there is an almost perfect correlation between how passionate someone is about writing and their need to make it financially viable. If you are a hobbyist with a passing interest in writing, you can write every once in a while when you feel like killing an hour or two. If writing is your life, you will do anything you can to make it financially viable to enable you to dedicate your life to it.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

RTEdwins said:


> It is only bad if money is the only thing you care about. If sharing your art with people, touching lives through your expression, or taking pride in the fact that you wrote a book at all is what you are after, then giving some or all of it away for free isn't a big deal.
> 
> *There is more to life and art than money, friend. *


It only took six pages for me to find something truly worthy to quote.

And a big 'boo hoo' to those of you who think whatever I do with my work hurts you.



> I wasn't going to post in this thread but had to reply to this as this kind of stuff drives me bonkers. The logic of this is flawed because -
> 
> Unless you are independently wealthy, there is an almost perfect correlation between how passionate someone is about writing and their need to make it financially viable. If you are a hobbyist with a passing interest in writing, you can write every once in a while when you feel like killing an hour or two. If writing is your life, you will do anything you can to make it financially viable to enable you to dedicate your life to it.


and... it only took from the time I started writing this reply to hitting the 'preview post' button to see another blanket statement full of 'flawed logic' that was pulled out of someone's stinky anus.

I'm pretty poor. Definitely not rich, not even close to being actual 'middle' class (lower middle class would be my estimate). I write because I love to write. If I make money at it, great. If not, I will keep writing.

Do me a favor, and stuff your blanket statements back into the hole where they came from. You don't speak for me or anyone else, so please don't pretend that you do just to help your own argument.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Why separate out "artistic expression"? I've worked as a programmer before. Because I was mostly self-taught I got the job by working free as an intern for 4 months. 

Most jobs of any value, you start out doing free, or being paid little or nothing. Does the "next to nothing" doctors get paid as residents diminish MDs in general? (When you account for the fact many of them work 80 hours a week, they make close to minimum wage--and most have upwards of $100K in student loans to pay off). Most of the lawyers I know started out as interns getting paid nothing, or in the law office secretary pool. 

There still have been no stats proposed that prove the "free" model hurts anyone. And I hate "artistic" careers being singled out as "special". They're not. And frankly, as writers we're not special and don't need a pedestal.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Mike_Author said:


> I wasn't going to post in this thread but had to reply to this as this kind of stuff drives me bonkers. The logic of this is flawed because -
> 
> Unless you are independently wealthy, there is an almost perfect correlation between how passionate someone is about writing and their need to make it financially viable. If you are a hobbyist with a passing interest in writing, you can write every once in a while when you feel like killing an hour or two. If writing is your life, you will do anything you can to make it financially viable to enable you to dedicate your life to it.


yes and no. I'm not wealthy, independently or otherwise. I *am* passionate about my stories. I think they're important. I'm paying a fair bit of money (even though one artist is giving me a great deal) to have them illustrated. I have no idea whether I'll ever make that investment back - certainly unless the illustrated versions sell better than my unillustrated versions do, I won't. But the stories are incomplete with out the illustrations. (and the illustrated versions can't sell much worse than the unillustrated versions do!)

I had this notion, perhaps a romantic one, of parents reading my stories to children who would liten with their eyes closed, making the pictures in their minds, like old-fashioned fairy tales. But ours is a much more visual society than when those original stories were written, and I'm finding that children demand pictures. I don't think that means that modern children have impoverished imaginations. I do think it means that they have a different kind of imagination.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

AngryGames said:


> It only took six pages for me to find something truly worthy to quote.
> 
> And a big 'boo hoo' to those of you who think whatever I do with my work hurts you.
> 
> ...


I have a wife, 2 kids whose entertainment and education demand all of my "free" time , 2 dogs that love walks every day. If I couldn't make a living from writing, I would get small slivers of time to do it. I reject the assertion that the desire to make a living out of your passion in any way devalues your art. Self-publishing (and liberal use of KDP Free days by the way) has given me a way to make a living out of my passion so I am eternally grateful.

And please stick to reasoned, civil debate without hurling anus-talk about the place.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Things are starting to go downhill folks -- tone is getting pretty nasty.  I guess it's a positive thing that it got to six pages at least.

Consider yourselves yellow carded -- next stop, thread lock.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

As long as Amazon allows Free books--there will be Free books. That simple. If Amazon changes their mind--no more Free books. You can argue all you want.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

It seems to me that posts like the OP and a multitude of other attitudes like, "I don't write what's popular" are all basically just uncovering an uncomfortable truth about the business of selling books. Are there things that are keeping your books from selling well that are not your fault/out of your control?

Yes.

I know it's hard not to focus on those things, but seriously... 

-You're never going to be able to convince people not to price their books as free, even if it were unequivocally true that free books were having a negative effect on our collective bottom lines. (And we've been arguing that for six pages, so there's no consensus there.)

-You can't make yourself magically love to write a popular genre.

-You can't force yourself to write at a rate that makes you miserable.

-You can't force people to buy your books and make you a millionaire.

-There are a lot of things in life, in the world, and within yourself that simply can't be changed. (Unless, you know, you're all about plastic surgery. That really opens up the amount of stuff you can fiddle with. You can even change your gender.)

It's my struggle to identify which things are within my control, which things aren't, to work to effect change in the areas I can, and to accept the stuff that's not going anywhere. (And to reword the Serenity prayer, apparently, since I just realized that's what I'm saying.)

Now... group hug!!


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Tell ya what.
If every author out there takes their book off free, I will do so as well. That's a promise.

Until then, I plan to compete.


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## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Things are starting to go downhill folks -- tone is getting pretty nasty. I guess it's a positive thing that it got to six pages at least.
> 
> Consider yourselves yellow carded -- next stop, thread lock.


Starting to go down hill?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Interesting thread. It seems independent authors do compete with each other.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Interesting thread. It seems independent authors do compete with each other.


But I thought we were all this one big collective culture who look and act and think alike, kind of like hippies.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> Interesting thread. It seems independent authors do compete with each other.


No, but we pretend _real hard_.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

valeriec80 said:


> It seems to me that posts like the OP and a multitude of other attitudes like, "I don't write what's popular" are all basically just uncovering an uncomfortable truth about the business of selling books. Are there things that are keeping your books from selling well that are not your fault/out of your control?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...


I am now strumming my guitar with my eyes closed and humming "Kumbaya." Soulfully.
No, really, great post. You are right.


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## TLarcombe (Oct 12, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Right - Do what you want - seriously. You don't think that attitude isn't wholly selfish and dangerous. You wanna nick something, go ahead, don't do what's right, do what's right for you, stuff everyone else. That's great and something we should definitely teach our kids.
> As for opinions, you don't have to like them or agree with them but we all have a right to express them and have them taken seriously.


The problem with your statement here is that if we hadn't all done what we wanted and self-published then it would be a moot point. I imagine the big 6 would probably claim that indies/self-publishers are being wholly selfish and dangerous.

I agree that we all have a right to our own opinions but this passage of yours that I've quoted seems to denigrate the opinions of people who don't agree with you. Which, if I'm reading it right, makes it hypocrisy. Sorry to point that out but that's how what you're saying reads to me.

Tom...


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

I've been away for a few days so was surprised to see the furore this thread has caused.  I guess it's good from a healthy debate point of view and great to see so many different opinions.  I don't think my opinion is more valid than anyone else's but I can only say what I think.  I have no hard data to support my thoughts just a concern that this is the way things are going.  As far as the library argument goes - I have several books in the library and I get royalties every year from it plus they buy several copies of your book so from an author point of view they are quite lucrative.  Also people pay library fees so again they are not getting something for nothing.  Thanks everyone for your thoughts - I have read them all.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

This is a very gracious reply. 

Not many people know about lending rights. If you have any paper books in libraries, you have to register with your local copyright agency, and you get a nice little surprise every year. I have books in many reference sections of public libraries. Those books have long out-earned any money I spent on printing them (pre-POD, full colour printing in Hong Kong no less)

Message: Don't forget about lending rights.

Fortunately, I live in a council where the library is free.


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## Jason Halstead (Mar 18, 2011)

You bring up some very interesting points and some of them might have merit. My experiences over the past several years, however, says they do not.

In November / December of 2011 I gave away tens of thousands of copies of a book. It's a feat I've never been able to duplicate what with the saturation of freebies. Nonetheless, those tens of thousands to the second book in the series from single digit sales to triple digits. I took book 1 off of free to see if it made a difference and sales of book 2 dropped back to single digits. Back to free - book 2's back up.

Want more? I've got more. I have 7 other series out there right now where 4 begin with loss leaders (soon to be 6). Each of the 5 generate hundreds or thousands of dollar each month. When I flip book 1 to paid, that number drops like a submarine with screen doors.

What about the 1 remaining? That's my anomaly that doesn't fit in with what I've been figuring out along the way. Book 1 is $.99 and it started ramping up in Nov / Dec of 2013 until it's pushing double digits in sales every day now. Ranked in the top 10 on two bestseller genre lists and top 20 on a third. That's the source of those sales, I suspect, and it helps generate sales with the remaining books in the series too.

Free works, and I have no qualms about using it whatsoever. I'm not devaluing my work, I'm giving readers the opportunity to discover me at no cost to themselves other than time. As a consumer, I appreciate it when I have that opportunity, so I try to give it to my consumers.

That's what I base everything on, my customers. How can I make it easy, fun, and worth their time and money. It's been a success too - I've lost track of how many emails I've gotten from readers thanking me for making my book free so they had a chance to discover me when they would have otherwise passed me by.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> This is a very gracious reply.
> 
> Not many people know about lending rights. If you have any paper books in libraries, you have to register with your local copyright agency, and you get a nice little surprise every year. I have books in many reference sections of public libraries. Those books have long out-earned any money I spent on printing them (pre-POD, full colour printing in Hong Kong no less)
> 
> ...


Does this work for Australian libraries? I've never heard of it before, and assumed it was just in the US?


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

beyond the royalty for the sale, US authors don't get money from libraries. I think that's a UK/Aus/NZ thing, although it may also be true for other EU countries. dunno about Canada.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> beyond the royalty for the sale, US authors don't get money from libraries. I think that's a UK/Aus/NZ thing, although it may also be true for other EU countries. dunno about Canada.


This. Authors are not paid by libraries in the U.S. (except when buying the book, of course) and libraries are free to the public in the U.S.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I thoroughly reject the idea that one shouldn't make money from art, or that making money from art devalues the art, or that if one's primary goal in creating art is to make money, then either the art or the creator is somehow lessened.  That is bollocks.  I come from a large family full of successful professional artists.  Art is a job, like any other, and Shakespeare got to get paid, son.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

ElHawk said:


> I thoroughly reject the idea that one shouldn't make money from art, or that making money from art devalues the art, or that if one's primary goal in creating art is to make money, then either the art or the creator is somehow lessened. That is bollocks. I come from a large family full of successful professional artists. Art is a job, like any other, and Shakespeare got to get paid, son.


THIS.


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## BokkenRecord (Nov 17, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> I thoroughly reject the idea that one shouldn't make money from art, or that making money from art devalues the art, or that if one's primary goal in creating art is to make money, then either the art or the creator is somehow lessened. That is bollocks. I come from a large family full of successful professional artists. Art is a job, like any other, and Shakespeare got to get paid, son.


This.

Shakespeare, an early self-publisher and writer of fantasy classics (  ), was also an astute businessman and reasonably wealthy when he died.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

OP, stop being stubborn and make your first book free, and you'll *probably *see a boost in sales for your second book. Either way, .35 cent royalty for your first book isn't worth losing potential readers over.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game." - Some Guy

"Either droppin hits like De La O or get the f*** off the commode." - Zack de la Rocha/Rage Against the Machine


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

jackcrows said:


> "Either droppin hits like De La O or get the f*** off the commode." - Zack de la Rocha/Rage Against the Machine


I just have to pop in to say this is the first time I've seen a Zack/Rage quote on KB.

And I love it.

Calm like a bomb.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Ty Johnston said:


> I just have to pop in to say this is the first time I've seen a Zack/Rage quote on KB.
> 
> And I love it.
> 
> Calm like a bomb.


LOL. Nothing like a good Evil Empire on the playlist to get the writing juices going.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> I thoroughly reject the idea that one shouldn't make money from art, or that making money from art devalues the art, or that if one's primary goal in creating art is to make money, then either the art or the creator is somehow lessened. That is bollocks. I come from a large family full of successful professional artists. Art is a job, like any other, and Shakespeare got to get paid, son.


Agree with this - I'm not naïve enough to believe I will make a fortune from my books but I put at least a year of my life into every release and I would like that effort to be valued and wish to be compensated adequately. I'm not creating art, I'm creating fun entertaining books and each sale is a success for me, which is why I'm reluctant to give them away. As it stands there is no way I could make a living doing this and don't really expect to. I'm lucky I have a great job that also allows me to write but I fear for those trying to do this for a living.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Does this work for Australian libraries? I've never heard of it before, and assumed it was just in the US?


Yup, it does, but I don't know how it works for ebooks


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Libraries are free to the public here in Australia too. That's why I'm confused...


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

beccaprice said:


> beyond the royalty for the sale, US authors don't get money from libraries. I think that's a UK/Aus/NZ thing, although it may also be true for other EU countries.


It is. Public lending right payments exist throughout the EU, though the system is far more efficiently administrated in some countries (UK, Germany) than in others.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Libraries are free to the public here in Australia too. That's why I'm confused...


I may be out of date here, it's been a while since I was in a library. It used to work that most books were free but you had to pay a nominal amount for new releases or really popular books. This may have changed. But I also think that being fined for bringing back a book late gives books worth. It says 'this is something valuable, don't lose it'. 
Further to the argument that free doesn't devalue work. Put yourself in the consumer's shoes. If you are standing in a store looking at two competitive products on a shelf and one is free, don't you immediately ask yourself what's wrong with the free one, or at least question why it's cheaper. Your expectations are also lowered if you take it - which can be positive if it performs well - but you still look at it as a lesser product than the more costly ones. Or is this just me?


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Or is this just me?


You probably have lots of company. That is one consumer behavior among many. I don't subscribe to it. I know producers and retailers play with prices all the time, so I try to take advantage of opportunities. I probably have lots of company, too.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Further to the argument that free doesn't devalue work. Put yourself in the consumer's shoes. If you are standing in a store looking at two competitive products on a shelf and one is free, don't you immediately ask yourself what's wrong with the free one, or at least question why it's cheaper. Your expectations are also lowered if you take it - which can be positive if it performs well - but you still look at it as a lesser product than the more costly ones. Or is this just me?


When you watch a show on broadcast TV do you make a similar comparison with shows on paid cable? Do you feel that _Law and Order_ has inherently less value than _Toddlers and Tiaras_ because you didn't pay for it?


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

IF free didn't work, there would be NOTHING on the radio.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Glenn Wood said:


> each sale is a success for me, which is why I'm reluctant to give them away. As it stands there is no way I could make a living doing this and don't really expect to.


Then why are you reluctant to give some books away? It sounds like you've never tried out the method for yourself, so you can't really make a judgment call on it until you've given it a fair shake. It's not going to put you into the poor house if the experiment fails. You still have your job and you're in no hurry to get rid of it. You literally have nothing to lose, except your fear of trying something new.

I'll tell you honestly that if you're still at the point there each sale feels like a big deal to you, then you may not be ready to try a permafree experiment, simply because I doubt you have the volume of books to make it really effective. In my observation (not having tried permafree myself yet, but having watched very closely those who _have _tried it) it works best when an author has several books out, and most authors, by the time they've got several books out, no longer see individual sales as successes.

And please don't take that to mean I'm dogging on you for feeling that way about your books or where you are right now. We all start at Point A and work our way toward Point B. There was a time when I felt like individual sales were successes, too (and they absolutely were, when I didn't have much exposure and had only one or two books to offer.) But if you're at that point now, then permafree is not likely to work well for you yet, unless the few books you happen to have are part of a series in a reasonably popular genre.

I'm only venturing into my own permafree experiments this summer, with carefully planned content which I'm writing specifically to use with the permafree strategy. It is a strategy -- something that is best used with careful planning and with a specific goal in mind. But much of successful marketing is that way.

If you are at the point where individual sales still feel like hard-won victories to you, it's just not very informed to say that "Free is bad for us all." It's not bad for us all. It's really quite good for the people who use it strategically, or at least it has been up until now...and in addition to _not _being bad for us _all_, other authors' use of the strategy is no threat to you as an individual author or as a bookseller.

In short, you're afraid of it for no reason. And once you've progressed to the point where you're no longer putting a high value on individual sales (but are considering sales trends in larger lumps and, in fact, have enough sales that you can track trends at all) your opinion of it will probably change.



Glenn Wood said:


> Put yourself in the consumer's shoes. If you are standing in a store looking at two competitive products on a shelf and one is free, don't you immediately ask yourself what's wrong with the free one, or at least question why it's cheaper. Your expectations are also lowered if you take it - which can be positive if it performs well - but you still look at it as a lesser product than the more costly ones. Or is this just me?


Do you ask yourself what's wrong with the free cheese sample at the grocery store? Why is the cheese store giving away samples of their product for free? There must be something wrong with it, or at least there must be some nefarious reason why it's being handed out as samples for free. If you sample that cheese and then like it, and go on to purchase a block of more of the same cheese from the same cheesemaker, will you still look at it as a lesser product compared to the cheeses which were not given out as free samples?

At the famous Pike Place Market in Seattle, one of the oldest shops in the market is Beecher's Cheese. They give away free curds to anybody who wants some. They also have samples of their fully finished cheeses, too. They ALWAYS give away free samples, every single day, to tourists and locals alike. Occasionally the line to get the free cheese samples stretches out the door and wraps around the corner and up the hill. Beecher's has never lost business because of their habit of giving away free cheese. Next to Starbucks, they are the longest-running shop at Pike Place Market. That is no coincidence. And their free hand with their cheeses makes for brand loyalty, too. Ask any Seattleite what their favorite kind of cheese is, and they'll tell you Beecher's, hands down (followed closely by Tillamook, an Oregon dairy which is also famous for giving away copious free samples of its product.) Our wedding reception had all Beecher's on the cheese board, and all the local guests correctly identified the cheese as Beecher's, because they, too, have been snacking on free cheese from their first visit to Pike Place Market until their most recent visit.

You're looking at this all wrong, man. The people who are using permafree successfully aren't giving away books for free and saying, "Oh, god, PLEASE LIKE THIS BOOK! I am desperate for you to find some value in this -- so desperate that I'm making it absolutely zero-risk for you to read it and give me some kind of validation! Please, please, please like this book! I'm begging you!"

They're giving it away and saying, "I betcha once you read it, you won't be able to resist coming back and buying more books from me. I betcha you'll like my free sample so much that I'll become one of your favorite authors. Read it, and then just TRY to stop yourself buying all my other books at full price."

The permafree successes are Beecher's Cheesing it (or Tillamooking it, if you prefer.) Either way, nobody can argue with the runaway success of free cheese.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Okay, snark free post here.

Look, when it comes right down to it, the negative view of free is really a dangerously narrow one. There are many reasons why a content producer might want to get their work into the hands of people without charging for it:

1) Genuine philanthropy. Some people just straight up don't feel the desire to get paid for their work. They want it them to be experienced by the most possible people or by people they feel would appreciated most. These people have as much right to distribute their works as anyone no matter how little they make.

2) Marketing. If you have a larger body of work, it only makes sense to use a sample of that work to sell people on the rest. The size and functionality of that sample varies from producer to producer and what they plan to do with it.

3) Awareness. If people don't know you or your genre, it's not just a matter of luring people in, it's a matter of convincing them you exist in the first place. As there exists a ready-made system for reaching thousands of people with free books, this is a very simple way to putting yourself on the radar. Even if someone doesn't read the book of yours they DL'd, you might still get your title and name stuck in their head for later.

4) Alternative Revenue Streams. No one is trying to _sell_ content on broadcast TV, basic cable, radio, or most content-driven websites. The content is there to get you to watch ads and buy box sets, albums, and licensed merchandise.

So the Free onion has a lot more layers than the strawman version presented on this thread that is supposedly devaluing art and being given away to no advantage.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> When you watch a show on broadcast TV do you make a similar comparison with shows on paid cable? Do you feel that _Law and Order_ has inherently less value than _Toddlers and Tiaras_ because you didn't pay for it?


I did pay for it - I paid my tv license and I bought the tv.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Glenn Wood said:


> I did pay for it - I paid my tv license and I bought the tv.


I bought my Kindle, iPad, iPhone, Nexus, iMac, and PC. For five of them, I pay for the internet connection. So does that mean I pay for free books?


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I bought my Kindle, iPad, iPhone, Nexus, iMac, and PC. For five of them, I pay for the internet connection. So does that mean I pay for free books?


Darn you Terrence - beat me to it!


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> I did pay for it - I paid my tv license and I bought the tv.


I have no idea what a TV license is, but as for the TV... you are aware that free ebooks aren't beamed directly into people's brainpans, right?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I think we may be having a misunderstanding.  What is a TV license?  
Here in the US you can either pay for cable channels or get the broadcast networks.  The broadcast channels are nearly always local and all the shows are sponsored by local and national advertisers so the viewers can have "FREE" entertainment.  Buying a television set has absolutely nothing to do with programming.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> I bought my Kindle.


 Fair call bad example with the tv but I pay my tv license and also for pay tv and if I like a tv show I buy the DVD.

I also agree with Vaarlinggrade and Elhawk on some points. I did try free for laughing policeman for one day to kickstart it and get it read (which worked). As I said in my original post I'm not against free as a loss leader, I'm against its overuse. I'm against Spotify because the artists are being ripped off, I'm against downloading movies off the internet because it's killing film industries and I'm violently opposed to the bastards who are offering free downloads of my published kids' books without my or my publisher's permission because that's theft. 
The worrying thing there is that those pirate sites exist because kids are asking and searching for free copies because that is what they are used to - and that, in a nutshell, is my major concern.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Fair call bad example with the tv but I pay my tv license and also for pay tv and if I like a tv show I buy the DVD.
> 
> I also agree with Vaarlinggrade and Elhawk on some points. I did try free for laughing policeman for one day to kickstart it and get it read (which worked). As I said in my original post I'm not against free as a loss leader, I'm against its overuse. I'm against Spotify because the artists are being ripped off, I'm against downloading movies off the internet because it's killing film industries and I'm violently opposed to the bastards who are offering free downloads of my published kids' books without my or my publisher's permission because that's theft.
> The worrying thing there is that those pirate sites exist because kids are asking and searching for free copies because that is what they are used to - and that, in a nutshell, is my major concern.


What is a TV license? I am assuming you do not own a television network.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

In the UK, and apparently in New Zealand, people pay a yearly license for TV access. In the UK they had trucks that would drive around that could detect the signals and if they found you were watching a TV and hadn't paid your license, you got fined.

In the US, broadcast over the air television is "free". Actually, it's 'ad supported'. Unlike in the UK where there are no commercials on the BBC channels. So, yeah, when I watch something on broadcast TV, it's completely free to me. I just have to sit through commercials.

Shows on cable channels are also ad subsidised, AND I pay a cable provider for access to whatever content I want.

There are public channels as well, which are funded by viewer donations as well as corporations. They don't have commercials, per se, though the big corps that donate get a prominent mention. But the shows are aired straight through -- no stop for toilet ad breaks.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

In Australia we pay neither a licence, nor are there ads on the ABC. Win, win!


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Again I may be out of date with tv license - my wife has just informed me the government got rid of it.  But actually tv is a bad example anyway because the creatives and writers are paid for the concept and the writing pre broadcast - same with radio so it's not like books where the creators are generally only paid by sales.  We're not comparing apples with apples here.  The writers don't give their shows away for free.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

The owner of my local pub gave me a shot of Irish Breakfast to try for free.
I liked it, so I bought the next one.
(Shrug)
Works for me.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

ebbrown said:


> The owner of my local pub gave me a shot of Irish Breakfast to try for free.
> I liked it, so I bought the next one.
> (Shrug)
> Works for me.


As I've mentioned many times I'm not against loss leaders eb or using free occasionally as a promotional tool. I'm against the overuse of it and the growing expectations among consumers that creative work should be available for free - music, movies, books etc.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Glenn Wood said:


> As I've mentioned many times I'm not against loss leaders eb or using free occasionally as a promotional tool. I'm against the overuse of it and the growing expectations among consumers that creative work should be available for free - music, movies, books etc.


What evidence do we have of those growing expectations for free books? We can observe independent sales keep on increasing.

How do we measure overuse? What level of usage is OK?

If the hypothesis is that free books will cause a reduction in dollar sales, it seems the hypothesis fails when tested.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> What evidence do we have of those growing expectations for free books? We can observe independent sales keep on increasing.
> 
> How do we measure overuse? What level of usage is OK?
> 
> If the hypothesis is that free books will cause a reduction in dollar sales, it seems the hypothesis fails when tested.


Terrence you and I clearly don't agree with each other. My evidence on consumer expectations is anecdotal - every time someone says to me - don't pay for that movie, I'll download it off the internet for free for you or when pirate sites offer my published books as free downloads because the demand is there. 
We could argue all day but how about we just agree to disagree ok?


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

Why fight them? 

Rather, join them. If those that wish to give books away for free wish to do so, then so be it! It is their books and none of us have any right to say that they can't give away their own works.

Now, on the other hand, if those that oppose the free book market join into the "free for all" by electing to make their books free? You know that so many free books would be flooding the market that readers would go nuts with all that money left in their pockets! 

I can see reviews now from readers stating, "It was a great read but I'm so discouraged because the Author left me with 2.99 cents in my pocket that I was willing to spend on the book but they left me with this measly amount of money that won't be enough to buy anything else because of inflation!"

On any given day, they can be half a million free books out there or more, maybe less. I wonder how many books would be there if we all offered free?

BM


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Imho, the practical analysis of whether or not 'free' is good or bad for one publisher, several or the entire market is moot. 'Free' vis a vis the book market is just a symptom of a zero marginal cost market dynamic and while it has a familiar footprint, it really isn't the same as retail loss leaders, free store samples or the media business model (radio/TV/print), because those industries do not have a zero marginal cost dynamic or are a completely different business model.
> 
> Whenever a market's barriers to entry are eliminated, the first strategy employed is almost always a lower price point because it is the easiest to understand, market and the most expedient to implement. "Buy my product x, it's less than their product y." It's a matter of human nature and the end result is always a devalued market resulting in a paradigm shift in how society perceives and interacts with the industry in question because professionalism, service and quality are no longer the primary drivers in the value proposition governing consumer purchase behavior.
> 
> ...


You make a very reasoned argument CC Kelly and you may well be right. Time will tell.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

Glenn Wood said:


> Terrence you and I clearly don't agree with each other. My evidence on consumer expectations is anecdotal - every time someone says to me - don't pay for that movie, I'll download it off the internet for free for you or when pirate sites offer my published books as free downloads because the demand is there.
> We could argue all day but how about we just agree to disagree ok?


I acknowledge your anecdotal evidence. I accept whatever you report. I have no basis to dispute anyones personal experience. However, anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient to make conclusions about the whole market. For that we have to look at much larger trends and aggregate indicators. When we do, we see they show continued growth in independent sales at the same time there have been significant numbers of free books given away.

I look to positive and negative pressures on sales. So, there could be a negative pressure from people who download free books rather than paid books. But that pressure is obviously overwhelmed by positive pressures from other sources. It is also quite possible the same market event can result in positive pressures from one source, and negative pressures from another. So a free book can prompt one set of consumers to refrain from paying. But the same free book can prompt another set to buy additional books.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> Terrence you and I clearly don't agree with each other. My evidence on consumer expectations is anecdotal - every time someone says to me - don't pay for that movie, I'll download it off the internet for free for you or when pirate sites offer my published books as free downloads because the demand is there.
> We could argue all day but how about we just agree to disagree ok?


Glenn that is worse than the TV analogy. You are equating someone who takes advantage of a free promotion to a pirate. Most fellow readers I know will enthusiastically take advantage of a free promotion to try a new author but would never dream of getting a book from a pirate site.

As Terrence mentions, we need to deduce the real situation by published industry data on sales or anything else empirical or verifiable. All of this points to a burgeoning (albeit with the growth curve flattening as the market matures) eBook market where the vast majority of people are happy to pay for books.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

D-did the goalposts just move to piracy?


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

Downloading a movie for free is piracy...that is a whole different issue! I would not group legitimate readers downloading legitimate free books with pirates who are stealing!


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Melisse_Aires said:


> Downloading a movie for free is piracy...that is a whole different issue! I would not group legitimate readers downloading legitimate free books with pirates who are stealing!


You guys are misinterpreting me - readers who download for free on a book that's offered for free are not pirates that's not what I meant but the sites who offer free downloads of books that haven't been offered for free certainly are. What I'm saying is that these sites exist because there is a consumer demand for free stuff now. For example my children's book The Brain Sucker has just been published in the UK and while it is still on the shelves and available for sale on Amazon (as a hard copy not an ebook yet) I have found sites offering free downloads, which is not authorised by myself or my publisher. These sites exist because people want stuff for free (and are used to getting it, which is why I think the movie piracy argument is relevant here).


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Shouldn't the alarmist title to this thread be 'Piracy is Bad For Us All' then?

Unless your theory is that authors offering free books somehow gave rise to the desire in some people to take things that are for sale without paying for them. Because... no.


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## Glenn Wood (May 7, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> Shouldn't the alarmist title to this thread be 'Piracy is Bad For Us All' then?
> 
> Unless your theory is that authors offering free books somehow gave rise to the desire in some people to take things that are for sale without paying for them. Because... no.


You're twisting my words a bit but In a way that's what I'm saying. I believe the free model in all forms music, art, books is creating a culture that breeds consumers who don't expect to pay for creative works. Look, I could be completely wrong here and I hope I am but this is what I'm concerned about.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Pirate sites existed long before people were giving away free ebooks. Long before ebooks too. The two can't be claimed to be related in any way.

Even before the internet, people were copying tapes and giving a copy to their friends.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah... that's... no.

No. In fact it's completely backward. Here's the thing: In the absence of any other factor, people will always prefer to pay zero dollars to paying more than zero dollars.

Always.

If someone is paying for something, they're doing so because circumstances are not lending themselves to no doing that whether it be the desire to support the producer, the threat of arrest for theft, or something else. It's simple common sense not to expend resources unless you absolutely have to.

Piracy exists not because existing free items create a 'taste' for free things, but because some people's natural, common sense desire and personal risk-vs-reward math have outweighted both desire to support the producer and fear of consequences.

In actuality, what we _should_ do to combat piracy is reestablish to our customers that we are, in fact humans with needs, wants and swimming pools only _half_ full of solid gold coins that are worthy of their empathy and not the plodding idiotic companies (like EA, who deserve to be pirated forever) whose lack of humanity has made them psychologically valid to injure. I feel the fewer people would steal in our case if it were made clear that they're not bilking BookCo International, villain of a billon 80's movies of five bucks and the write-monkey they oppress of seven cents but instead, they're screwing a noble wild write-monkey of four bucks.


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## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Glenn Wood said:


> You're twisting my words a bit but In a way that's what I'm saying. I believe the free model in all forms music, art, books is creating a culture that breeds consumers who don't expect to pay for creative works. Look, I could be completely wrong here and I hope I am but this is what I'm concerned about.


I know what you are saying it's just that I think your logic is back to front. Freebies remove the single greatest barrier to someone trying new authors (there is a famous study in psychology where people could buy either expensive chocolate cheaply or cheaper chocolate slightly more cheaply. People always chose the more expensive chocolate which they perceived to be better value. But when they changed the experiment so that the expensive chocolate was just a couple of pennies and the cheap chocolate was free, people switched to the cheaper chocolate (despite the difference in price between the two options not changing))

Freebies mean that people can sample a new author without the fear of buyer's regret. This lack of a workable sampling method (in other business models) is what drives people to piracy to a certain extent. Say everything was a flat 9.99 on Amazon. How many copies do you think indies (without an existing readership) would sell? Would this prompt more piracy or less piracy?

However all this is moot anyway. If there was no such thing as free (as a means to get visibility and new readers) pirates would never bother to put my stuff up on their sites because there would be no demand for my books in the first place. Before I tried using free as a promotional tactic, I was invisible. Now, less so.

Or, let me address it another way. A while back I launched a new alias and decided to try not using free. I sold close to zero copies. My lack of free hardly conditioned people to pay for my books. Meanwhile, my aliases that freely and regularly used free promotions were (and are still) selling like hotcakes. I have since switched that particular alias to using free promo and have started to catch up in terms of sales. It's like night and day in my experience.


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## Sallyj (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm not a fan of giving away books in free promotions because I think too many of them stagnate, unread on Kindles that are bulging with free titles that the reader has forgotten they ever downloaded (and I am as guilty of this as anyone).
I have found that free promos don't result in a large number of reviews or a post-promo spike in sales.
The newish Kindle Countdown deals are much more effective. There are fewer downloads but at least it brings in royalties and more of the books will actually get read (I'm more likely to read and review something I've paid for).
I will continue to use free promos for my shorter works that cannot justify the £1.99 minimum price tag for Countdown Deals - free promos are great for getting on 'Customers Who Also Bought ...' lists.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike_Author said:


> I know what you are saying it's just that I think your logic is back to front. Freebies remove the single greatest barrier to someone trying new authors (there is a famous study in psychology where people could buy either expensive chocolate cheaply or cheaper chocolate slightly more cheaply. People always chose the more expensive chocolate which they perceived to be better value. But when they changed the experiment so that the expensive chocolate was just a couple of pennies and the cheap chocolate was free, people switched to the cheaper chocolate (despite the difference in price between the two options not changing))


I like this analogy. And I love chocolate. 

This is exactly how I look at 'freeness' for books.

Say there are two books available today and I have limited funds. One is $9.99, by an author I know and really like, so I have high confidence that I will like this new book as well. Also, there's a book by an author I've never heard of. It's $4.99. Hmmm. Cheaper than the 'name brand', but it might be o.k. Or it might one.  Check reviews, check rating, check blurb. . . . you know what? I'm just not as sure I'm going to like it as I am sure I'm going to like the $9.99 one. I really need, this week, to buy a book I know I'll like. So the higher priced one it is.

I could spend $5 and buy the cheaper book, but if I don't like it, I've wasted my time and my money AND I don't have enough to buy the one I know I'll really like either. Until I get more money. (Yes, people who read a LOT do have to budget like this or they'd have no money for food!  ) So I'm not a happy camper and I'll definitely never even look at that author again, even if everyone I talk to tells me how great their latest book is. 

So, this week, I buy the $10 book, and wishlist the $5 and put a watch on it. Keep checking reviews to see if someone says something that clicks with me. And maybe one week I'll have an extra $5 I can afford to waste if that's what it ends up being. But there are always a LOT of books on my list, so there's no telling when that might be.

Then one week I get an alert! The book I've been looking at is FREE! Really? Check again and this time I'll click. What a deal! Reading material I have at least average confidence I'll like but no cost to me. And then I read the book. (Yes, I will eventually read the book, because I don't just pick up _everything_ that's free, only things I'd had my eye on for one reason or another.)

When I read it, one of two things happens:

1. I LIKE it!  So I go searching for more books by the author and now I'm willing to PAY for them because my confidence is much higher that I'll enjoy them. And that author goes on my 'willing to buy, watch for new stuff' list.

2. I DON'T like it.  Well, I'm glad I didn't spend any money; from my perspective I've wasted only time -- also a valuable commodity, of course. But I won't waste any more of it, because I WON'T buy any more of that author's books. But these are not LOST sales, because I probably wasn't going to anyway since I wasn't willing to pay the higher price in the first place.

Clearly, I'm just one person, but it seems to me that a special, limited time, Free price is going to work to get eyeballs on your work.

Having one title always free _may_ work, but I have to be aware of it in the first place. I don't tend to troll the free books lists. It's going to work best on me if it's a series and you promote it as such, indicating the first book is free. I almost NEVER see this. I see people promoting individual books. Often there's no indication that it IS part of a series. I'm not anal about it, but if it's a series, I do like to start at the beginning.

Here's another thing. If it's ALWAYS free, I know I don't have to hurry. I can pick it up any time. As I said, there are a LOT of books on my list, so no telling when that'll be. Honestly, it could be years.  To come into the center of my radar, I've got to be hearing about how it's not just that book, there are a lot more, and they have to look also interesting to me. With a book usually priced higher but temporarily free, I'll get an alert. So I'll see it's "on sale" and assuming my confidence is average to high that I will like it -- which is why I put an alert on it in the first place -- I'll get it then. 'Cause there's no promise it'll go free some other time.

Anyway, that's my process, more or less. FWIW, in many cases a 99 cent price can also get me to click -- but only if it's a book that otherwise looks interesting. And it will work, on me, whether we're talking a series -- same characters throughout -- or stand alone books of similar style and/or genre.

Oh . . . one other thing. I use this same process any time a book is by an author I've never heard of or never read. How the darn thing was published don't enter into it, as they say. Example: I read the first _Outlander_ book (Gabaldon, I think, is the author's name) which is definitely a 'major publisher' title/series. It's probably NOT something I would have picked up if it hadn't been offered free because it's just enough outside my usual favorite genres that I probably wouldn't have paid for it. But, for a short while, early in kindle history, it was free. And I enjoyed it.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Glenn Wood said:


> You guys are misinterpreting me - readers who download for free on a book that's offered for free are not pirates that's not what I meant but the sites who offer free downloads of books that haven't been offered for free certainly are. What I'm saying is that these sites exist because there is a consumer demand for free stuff now. For example my children's book The Brain Sucker has just been published in the UK and while it is still on the shelves and available for sale on Amazon (as a hard copy not an ebook yet) I have found sites offering free downloads, which is not authorised by myself or my publisher. These sites exist because people want stuff for free (and are used to getting it, which is why I think the movie piracy argument is relevant here).


Have you noted any loss of sales due to the piracy? I mean, have you seen your averages go down?

Some of my books were pirated, and my average sales did not budge. (In fact, they were up a little during that month, but that was an expected fluctuation of data and not a result of the piracy.)

Piracy is not hurting any author and may be helping some authors.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Glenn Wood said:


> Again I may be out of date with tv license - my wife has just informed me the government got rid of it. But actually tv is a bad example anyway because the creatives and writers are paid for the concept and the writing pre broadcast - same with radio so it's not like books where the creators are generally only paid by sales. We're not comparing apples with apples here. The writers don't give their shows away for free.


Nope, tv license is still going, just got the bill yesterday 

BBC say they don't have ads, but they always have trailers and ads for their own stuff - tie-in books, dvds etc.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Sallyj said:


> I'm not a fan of giving away books in free promotions because I think too many of them stagnate, unread on Kindles that are bulging with free titles that the reader has forgotten they ever downloaded (and I am as guilty of this as anyone).
> I have found that free promos don't result in a large number of reviews or a post-promo spike in sales.
> The newish Kindle Countdown deals are much more effective. There are fewer downloads but at least it brings in royalties and more of the books will actually get read (I'm more likely to read and review something I've paid for).
> I will continue to use free promos for my shorter works that cannot justify the £1.99 minimum price tag for Countdown Deals - free promos are great for getting on 'Customers Who Also Bought ...' lists.


Interestingly, I've had the opposite experience. I've only done one Countdown, but that was about as effective as it could be--was #1 on the Countdown page for a good couple days, purchased almost 8,000 times over 6 days, got to #32 in the Amazon store. For me, that was a pretty breathtaking success. But the sell-through NUMBERS (not rate) weren't as great or the "tail" as long as they were for the book I gave away free at the beginning of November (86,000 copies). It's just a numbers game. If you sell 10% (or fewer) copies, even at 99 cents, than you give away free, even if you get a really good sell-through rate to your other books--it's just not as many books sold in all.

Because, of course, not everybody is going to read your 99-cent Countdown book right away, either. And the better known you become, the more reviews you have on that "free" book, the more people ARE likely to read it, because they anticipate that it's going to be pretty good (or at least not stink  ). They may even have heard of you and look forward to the chance to try you out risk-free.

Anyway, that's been my experience, for what it's worth. I've also found, by the way, that I get more traction because my "free" books AREN'T always free, which adds a little urgency and excitement.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

How much does the TV license cost? Is it one license per household, or one license per TV?


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## Yonderer (Jan 3, 2011)

wow... funny how if you stereotype something loudly enough it becomes the reality in everyone's minds. I very much disagree with the blanket opinion that making a book free is an automatic devaluation of not only my work but that of all other writers.

Setting an individual book as FREE can in no way devalue the manuscript automatically. It can in fact give it a huge and echoing value.

We compete against millions of other Authors. We are, most of us, invisible in that sea of writers. Our great need is to find some way to differentiate ourselves and rise out of that sea of struggling word whittlers and become VISIBLE to the readers scanning the lists of Amazon.

If you are ranked at say 457,293... good luck! You are INVISIBLE.

Now... If you've done your homework and created an author platform that functions at all, you have a hope of having some "Traffic" to put your titles in front of that might bring you some sales. That has worked in modest degree for myself.

Let me say right here that I believe a very valuable strategy for indy authors is to write series. Once you have created characters that have captured your readers imaginations you have a built in "market base" for future work. A foundation to build on so that you need not start from scratch with each new book. (just saying)

THE thing that has springboarded that very modest success has been the use of setting the lead off title of each series at free. Yes I download many many free never to make me a dime books... OR... DO they never make me a dime?

Those FREE books are downloaded in such quantity that they push those books down into the TWO DIGIT ranking in the free catalog... and THAT makes me visible. I have one book that is routinely #18 +- in westerns, and a second that is generally #50 or lower in action/adventure type category. (free kindle catalog)

The consequence being that I have seen a sell through ranging from 8 1/2% to 22% for the past several months.

What that says to me is this; I can spend thousands on advertising and marketing and all of that or I can INVEST those series lead off Titles in the Series itself. IF... I have done my homework and produced good stories with characters that capture peoples imaginations, that readers want to read and know more about... a growing % will return and purchase the follow on stories. That is what I am seeing.

If and when that happens, then that first FREE book was not FREE after all. It was an INVESTMENT in my work and in my writing.

That is exactly what I am experiencing. That is the value of using your first title as a net spread wide to capture curious readers. The honey to tempt them to take a chance on you rather than all the other many many thousands. If you have done your WORK, which is to produce the good story they are hoping for, your words themselves will set the hook. If you've done your work well, you will have a fan for life. If you do that well, You have given that first So called Free book a HUGE value.

Now here is where you can lose the value that first book created. It is where I have in the past erred. Once you achieve a "momentum" the market can be fickle. You must exercise discipline and consistently produce a flow of GOOD work to follow on with regularity. If you dawdle too long, that momentum so preciously bought, is lost.

This is about many things but mostly about good marketing. You have to do all the things well. Throwing rocks at each other rather than showing the tricks and techniques that worked for you and observing what others have done, while maintaining an open mind... is NOT doing all things well.

Just my twelve cents worth.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Yonderer said:


> wow... funny how if you stereotype something loudly enough it becomes the reality in everyone's minds. I very much disagree with the blanket opinion that making a book free is an automatic devaluation of not only my work but that of all other writers.
> 
> Setting an individual book as FREE can in no way devalue the manuscript automatically. It can in fact give it a huge and echoing value.
> 
> ...


If anyone's ever made the case for why free works, this is probably it. Excellent post.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Yonderer said:


> wow... funny how if you stereotype something loudly enough it becomes the reality in everyone's minds. I very much disagree with the blanket opinion that making a book free is an automatic devaluation of not only my work but that of all other writers.
> 
> ... (truncated for brevity) ...
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Every word came to me in the voice of Sam Elliot. That alone made it worth the read, but I also agree with you 100%.


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