# Career building advice for new authors



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Everything about vsAdmin and the new board owners sucks. You don't get my good advice anymore.


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Oh my gosh! *goes to read*


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

awesome. thank you!


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Love it! This is my bible for the balance of the year, and for next year. I'll add that Twitter ads and Youtube ads have been useful as well. Whatever ad platform you pick, be prepared to experiment and don't expect it to work immediately. I recommend the Art of Paid Traffic podcast to help you understand all the platforms.


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## Jake Decker (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you for taking the time to share this.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Excellent.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

_My old advice: Write whatever you like, publish in a long series, have a mailing list, make lots of stuff free.
My new advice: Study the market, pick your favorite marketable genre, publish in short series, have a mailing list, use ads (like FB and Google AdWords, not BookBub), flog 99c and 2.99._

very interesting to read this. i remember that earlier advice. i released a genre-iffy series in early 2014 that I planned to go on&#8230;and on&#8230;and on&#8230; i wrote 150k and released. problem? no market target=no readers

so i was locked into this big sprawly thing and had to ease my way out. it was an expensive lesson and killed a pen name.

now i release trilogies of 60-80k books. enough to make a price funnel worthwhile but not so big they become unwieldy, or are an expensive and time consuming flop.

but i still look at authors with long-running series like bella andre and others with 20+ books in the series and hope to hit an idea that will carry that far. we'll see.


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## Liz French (Apr 13, 2014)

I always love your advice threads ゴジラ (AKA lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire) I shall diligently unbookmark your previous ones and add this one in instead.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Meh. I'm never a fan of writing to market because it doesn't project longevity to me. It projects fads and what happens to that catalog when the fad is over? Of course, I never study the market either. I write what I want to read and let everyone else worry about the market as I write and get more and more books out. I also have two names and while there are some differences they also overlap in genre. I also think paperbacks and audio books are import because they make money and offer an added layer of legitimacy.
Frankly, though, I think everyone should do whatever they want because it's more fun that way.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Okay questions. 

"flog 99c and 2.99"  < What does this mean? Flog? 

So for a BRAND NEW AUTHOR who has never published before and is trying to start off their brand right... you still recommend 2.99 for first in series?
Because everyone else here has said .99c and I'm curious what you base that strategy on?

Thanks for giving advice. ^^ I always appreciate your posts.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

There's absolutely no reason why writing to market would make a book have less longevity than any other book.  A book is a book, so the only thing writing to market helps you do is capitalize on the natural momentum of what's current.  

But I have books that I wrote to market years ago which still are some of my bestselling work.  I don't see why it would matter at all, other than the initial discoverability part...


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Gojira drops the mic. W00t!


Amanda- writing what you want to write that has a market is different from writing hot trends (though it can coincide). Pretty sure she meant the former.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

ゴジラ said:


> Nowadays, I actually feel kinda guilty about the old "write whatever you like, publish a lot of it" advice. Whatever *I* like turned out to be marketable, but that's not true for everyone. I feel bad encouraging people to put a lot of time into something that may never earn money. I totally 100% believed that advice at the time, and it was given with good intentions, but I no longer feel that works.
> 
> Also, I have yet to hit upon a series idea that will last 20+ books like Bella Andre. I'm sure it can still be done. It hasn't happened to me, though, so I have no advice on how to find that.


Yup, the write what's in your heart advice is just usually given by those whose hearts happened to align naturally with market forces.

Of course, they don't seem to ever notice this...but those of us who've had to adjust because our hearts didn't fit the market, do realize there's a big difference.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

gorvnice said:


> There's absolutely no reason why writing to market would make a book have less longevity than any other book. A book is a book, so the only thing writing to market helps you do is capitalize on the natural momentum of what's current.
> 
> But I have books that I wrote to market years ago which still are some of my bestselling work. I don't see why it would matter at all, other than the initial discoverability part...


I'd tend to agree. If you're writing to a niche trend then you might be in trouble, but writing good space opera similar to other space operas that are hot right now doesn't preclude long term readers. As long as you're writing what you enjoy, and not trying to crank out stuff just to pad the market. I think readers sense the lack of authenticity in that kind of work.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

ゴジラ said:


> I don't necessarily disagree. But what you like turned out to be very marketable and faddish at the moment, and good for you that it did! Some of us love things that are NOT marketable and unlikely to ever be a fad. And it can still be very much worth your time to write the stuff that sprouts from the mushiest corners of your heart, but maybe not if money is priority. I am only trying to suggest to folks how they can make money at this stuff. It's not the only way to make money. Making money is also not the only valid goal.


The difference is what is repeatable.

There are always unique folks with amazing talent and vision who trailblaze. But you simply cannot plan to be one of them, and you can't repeat that process because it always looks different.

Writing to market or to trend is a way of tangibly doing something that is in fact repeatable. You satisfy a demand that's out in the marketplace. It works.

It's not the only way to do it, it's just the most repeatable and tangible way to do it. The old vague "write what you love" line leaves most writers spinning their wheels and making very little progress financially, unless what they love just so happens to align with a hot trend.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> I'd tend to agree. If you're writing to a niche trend then you might be in trouble, but writing good space opera similar to other space operas that are hot right now doesn't preclude long term readers. As long as you're writing what you enjoy, and not trying to crank out stuff just to pad the market. I think readers sense the lack of authenticity in that kind of work.


I am talking about writing things about billionaire spanking sex sessions, stepbrother romance, etc. and cranking it out to make a quick buck. I would rather write a book that's still (hopefully) going to be selling in five years. Do we think the stepbrother stuff is still going to be on people's "to read" list in five years or is it going to fall into obscurity like monster porn and Harry Potter clones? I think writing a catalog that can hang around vs. riding a fad wave is going to be way more profitable over the long haul. If people want to write that stuff though, I say go for it. I'm espousing the "do whatever you want" method because that's what people are going to do anyway.


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## Susanne123 (Jan 9, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> It actually says "lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire."


Really appreciate the time you took to give us your viewpoints. It really does help! Many thanks.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

And sure, there are things, like the aforementioned "navy seal's werebear's stepbrother's twin baby's twin" or whatever....and that's certainly a niche kind of trend that might not have the kind of longevity of other more mainstream trends.

That's all part of the equation.  Some books might not have as much staying power, but honestly, few books do have that kind of staying power.  Again, I don't think you can plan for that sort of thing.

Write what's hot, write fun, enjoy what you do!

The greats will be great, the good will be good, and the sucky will still suck.

Nothing changes except whether you make any money or not.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I guess it depends. If the people making bank riding trends stay on top of the trends... they'll probably do just fine long-term too. 

I hope what I write will be read in five years, but I also know that if I don't keep widening my audience base, reaching new readership, and promoting the heck out of the first books in series etc... it's unlikely no matter how good my books are. Visibility decays, no matter what you are writing.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I am talking about writing things about billionaire spanking sex sessions, stepbrother romance, etc. and cranking it out to make a quick buck. I would rather write a book that's still (hopefully) going to be selling in five years. Do we think the stepbrother stuff is still going to be on people's "to read" list in five years or is it going to fall into obscurity like monster porn and Harry Potter clones? I think writing a catalog that can hang around vs. riding a fad wave is going to be way more profitable over the long haul. If people want to write that stuff though, I say go for it. I'm espousing the "do whatever you want" method because that's what people are going to do anyway.


I sort of agree that your stuff will probably have a longer shelf life than the super niche trendy books.

But you cannot typically plan for that kind of staying power. From the get-go you have been somewhat on your own bandwagon. Most writers cannot and will not ever do what you've done.

But some writers can spot a new stepbrother trend and make some money NOW on that trend. Thats repeatable. it works.

What you've done ONLY works for you. And that's a big difference.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2015)

Thank you for this. 😊

One question: Is there anything you need to do legally to create pen names (like you do if you want to create your own publishing company) or can you go forth and conquer without registering anywhere?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> I see what you mean. I'm personally not a huge fan of erotica shorts as a career plan because they get suppressed more than any other genre, especially on non-Amazon vendors, so I don't think it's a good use of time long-term. But it can be a nice short-term income stream. Authors need to pay the mortgage this month, not just the mortgage five years from now, and there is certainly value in paying the bills right this second.
> 
> They're also fun as heck. Have you written billionaire spanking scenes? FUN.
> 
> As a side note, Harry Potter clones are still selling well. They're branded more cleverly these days, but they're out there in droves.


I prefer down and dirtier erotica. I like the stuff Amazon banned. That's why I prefer to hang around at Literotica. I wrote erotica in another life but abandoned it outright two years ago. I pretty much work on novels (other than my witch shorts) every day. Speaking of, it's time for more dinner and then three more chapters.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

The game doesn't change.  If you're good enough to write to trend NOW, why would you suddenly fail at writing to trend in three years or thirty years?

The ability to see the market, judge where there's an underserved market or a growing trend, producing work, and then making money on that work...why would that ability fail me in five years?

I just don't see where it all breaks down.  I started writing to trend in 2012 because my first bunch of books in my chosen genre didn't pan out in 2011 to my liking.

Since 2012, I've renewed myself countless times under various pen names and with different books.

There have been shakeups and crackdowns and all kinds of stuff, and I'm still making a great living writing to the market.  Some of my early books from 2012 still are making me money, good money--as we speak.

I don't frankly see any difference.  If I'd had a trailblazing type of an idea, I'd have done it.  But I didn't and it never worked that way for me or many, many others who do what I do.  We fill needs in the marketplace rather than hoping the market fits our needs.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

*waves* 

This is all v good advice. Am curious about the no Bookbub caveat for ads. Why?


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## Kevin Lee Swaim (May 30, 2014)

I should have studied the market. Instead, I decided what the world really needed was Elmore Leonard inspired military thrillers and vampire novels.


I DID somehow get a fantastic cover artist, editor, and proofreader.


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## henderson (Jul 14, 2014)

ゴジラ,

Thanks for starting this thread.  

Some very helpful and useful information.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

ゴジラ said:


> These days, I try to publish like I won't be able to self-publish at all, in any genre, three years from now.  There are no guarantees about anything, regardless of what I write, and I'm becoming a crusty old pessimist.


Well I sort of do the same in my most paranoid, fearful moments. I mean--since 2011 I kept thinking this could all just end at any time.

Now it seems to be somewhat of a real, legitimate business that has staying power. But who's to say that it doesn't all just fall apart one day soon?

Regardless, the difference between writing to market or not really has little to do with whether or not this all goes away. I suppose those working the more mainstream tropes and genres will have a leg up if things revert to a more traditional model. But really, all indies will be in rough shape if that ever happens.

Writing to market simply works. It p*ss es people off because it works so damn well. Other than trying to deny its viability, most authors seem p*ssed they can't do it. It's not quite as simple as just throwing a dumb book up with the same cover as another author. You still have to be good at what you do.

But if you are a good writer and you're toiling away in some genre with a small audience, writing to market is a way to make use of your skills in the service of making more dependable money.


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## bwcolborne (Jun 11, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> Don't argue with me, smalls. Just do it.


Great, now I have to go watch the Sandlot...


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## R. M. Webb (Jul 24, 2014)

bwcolborne said:


> Great, now I have to go watch the Sandlot...


Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! I put myself under a no social media ban... You (and a few other authors who keep reminding me in missing the boat) may have just broken me.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> Well, I mean, BookBubs are still nice. I just wouldn't worry about getting them too much. They're a short boost. The readers you get from that typically only buy BB sales, and Amazon squished the long-term impact of those sales pretty thoroughly. Slow and steady ads through various other internet means are better in the long run. It does require more capital, though.


I don't know about that. I've picked up quite a few fans who found me on BookBub and read through my entire catalog and I only ever run sales on first in series. I agree that if you're using BookBub constantly to keep sales and ranking up there's a problem because you run into the law of diminishing returns. I use BookBub on the first in a series (I alternate series) every six months as a jolt. They've proven to be well worth the money. The key is to increase readership between BookBubs. If you keep sinking right back down after the ad, something has to be adjusted there.


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## MKP (Jan 5, 2012)

Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Advice that is simple and to the point is what I need right now! Oh, I do have one thing to add to the links in the back matter, though: a link for readers to leave a review! I've heard of a lot of people having trouble recently with getting reviews, and everyone seems to think this is one of the best solutions.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

Thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

I'm pretty new here.

Now I know that ゴジラ is a bad ass.

Though ACX was easy and profitable for my non-fic. Not the case for genre fiction?


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> Nowadays, I actually feel kinda guilty about the old "write whatever you like, publish a lot of it" advice. Whatever *I* like turned out to be marketable, but that's not true for everyone. I feel bad encouraging people to put a lot of time into something that may never earn money. I totally 100% believed that advice at the time, and it was given with good intentions, but I no longer feel that works.
> 
> Also, I have yet to hit upon a series idea that will last 20+ books like Bella Andre. I'm sure it can still be done. It hasn't happened to me, though, so I have no advice on how to find that.


naw. nothing to feel bad about. your posts have been (and still are) hugely helpful. everything changes fast. i had a huge idea that i thought would work..and it didn't. lesson learned.


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## Flay Otters (Jul 29, 2014)

Aiyeeeee! Godzilla is coming to crush Tokyo, and Bookbub!
Seriously, good talk.
But Red, tell me more of these shapely buns whence you speak.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Oooo, shiny!!! Like shiny things!!! 

So, oh lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire, about pen names. I've pubbed five books in UF, then one in contemporary romance and one romantic thriller under the same pen name. Too late to fix that now. But my WIP is space opera. You're saying that I need to use another pen name, even if I lose my readers. Do I need a different web site for each pen name / genre? How do I let my readers know about the new book?

And thanks. I'm in the process of redoing my web site and thinking hard about branding and marketing.

(and btw, interested in beta reading a space opera in Sept - Oct?)


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## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

I think branding yourself is key. When people see your author name, they should say, "Oh, she writes those witchy mystery books!" or "I love her urban fantasy mysteries." They associate you and your books and they seek you out. 

Great advice all around!


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## Marcella (Mar 22, 2013)

Awesome!  Thank you for this.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2015)

ゴジラ--

I'm a huge fan of yours, on this board and off as a reader. I love that you're constantly evolving and keeping up with what works *now*... And the fact that you're generous enough to share with us, and give us these epic posts, is awesome.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Meh. I'm never a fan of writing to market because it doesn't project longevity to me. It projects fads and what happens to that catalog when the fad is over? Of course, I never study the market either. I write what I want to read and let everyone else worry about the market as I write and get more and more books out. I also have two names and while there are some differences they also overlap in genre. I also think paperbacks and audio books are import because they make money and offer an added layer of legitimacy.
> Frankly, though, I think everyone should do whatever they want because it's more fun that way.


Oddly, the things you choose to write (unless there's another hidden pen name) fit right into popular current genres. If you happened to like an unpopular genre and sold five books a month, you may have a different opinion.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> Oddly, the things you choose to write (unless there's another hidden pen name) fit right into popular current genres. If you happened to like an unpopular genre and sold five books a month, you may have a different opinion.


Only superficially. I like to read cozy mysteries, fantasy, paranormal and romance. Those are genres that never really go out of style. You can burrow down and say witch mysteries are popular now, but at their core they're still cozy mysteries. If I really wanted to squeeze it down and try to ride a market I would be chasing the animals and cooking markets because they're the most popular in cozies now. I write cozies but the only hobby they have is insulting each other. In the end, I write what I want to read.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Only superficially. I like to read cozy mysteries, fantasy, paranormal and romance. Those are genres that never really go out of style. You can burrow down and say witch mysteries are popular now, but at their core they're still cozy mysteries. If I really wanted to squeeze it down and try to ride a market I would be chasing the animals and cooking markets because they're the most popular in cozies now. I write cozies but the only hobby they have is insulting each other. In the end, I write what I want to read.


You hit that Witch Cozy trend at the exact right time. About three or four years ago is when I started to see witch cozies sitting around my mom and sister's house, which is probably when they started exploding in popularity, since they're both very pop culture buyers.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Briteka said:


> You hit that Witch Cozy trend at the exact right time. About three or four years ago is when I started to see witch cozies sitting around my mom and sister's house, which is probably when they started exploding in popularity, since they're both very pop culture buyers.


I did. That was an accident and I've been very open about lucking into that. When those exploded I was as surprised as anyone else. I did not write the first one to market, though. It was merely a way to turn the women in my family into witches. I honestly write what I get ideas for. I have another cozy mystery idea that I'm outlining the first book in and it will be at least two years before I can add that series.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

CM Raymond said:


> I'm pretty new here.
> 
> Now I know that ゴジラ is a bad ass.
> 
> Though ACX was easy and profitable for my non-fic. Not the case for genre fiction?


I can't speak for the esteemed Gojira, but audiobooks are costly and a lot of a crapshoot. If you have a series that sells very well, by all means, produce your own, as they are likely to sell in audiobook as well. But it's really, really hard to promote audiobooks. We have way fewer tools with those than with ebooks. It's easy to dump money into what's been a fairly successful ebook series and only come away with a trickle in audio.

My newest audiobook's been hanging around #35-40 since its release a month ago. It's through one of the publishers Gojira's referring to. I've done a few of my own and I know it absolutely wouldn't be where it is without them. I think her advice is solid.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I am with  ゴジラ, billionaire spanking scenes are fun as heck to write. Before I gave bdsm billionaire e-rom a shot, I assumed I'd hate writing an alpha male but it was totally awesome. I'm super excited to write a follow up.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks for posting this. It's pretty much what I am doing at the moment, except I need to get onto the whole facebook ads thing. 

Love the back matter comments. I was updating mine recently with a complete list of my books and it's about as much fun as root canal. And really, do people want to know about more than the next in the series?  Too much information is off putting anyway, although I might put a link to my author central (or equivalent) page.


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

I considered writing a post about what I'm doing and how I got to the stage I'm at right now. Now, I really don't need to. Fantastic post. Concise and informative. New writers - take note.

Still need to do my homework on the Facebook advertising side of things, though. And build some courage to try my loss leaders at 2.99 for a while.

EDIT: Just upped the price of my first Infection Z book from 99c to 2.99. The entire series has been in the top 10,000 since I launched the first book back in March, so I figure it's an experiment worth giving a shot. If sales go downhill, I can always change back to 99c in a month with the security of an impending fourth book/knowledge that the first book has sold well at 99c in the past to fall back on.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

ゴジラ said:


> use ads (like FB and Google AdWords, not BookBub)


Is there a guide to using FB and Google AdWords?

Is this ad method true for both Amazon-exclusive and wide books?


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## RBK (Nov 28, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Is there a guide to using FB and Google AdWords?
> 
> Is this ad method true for both Amazon-exclusive and wide books?


I believe Mark Dawson has a good course on Facebook advertising. Haven't taken it myself though.


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## JayH (Jul 17, 2015)

Love this post! So basically, strike a compromise (as far as is possible) between what you enjoy writing and what people will actually buy/read? Sensible.


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## -alex- (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for the post and updates of the now. Always appreciate your words of wisdom.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

ゴジラ said:


> If you love the Navy SEALS werebear stepbrothers' accidental baby, I hope you are writing what you love!!


Great. Now I want to write that book.  Grrrr. Thanks. Thanks a lot. It's not like my brain isn't already overflowing with ideas, or anything. grumble grumble grumble



brkingsolver said:


> Oooo, shiny!!! Like shiny things!!!
> 
> So, oh lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire, about pen names. I've pubbed five books in UF, then one in contemporary romance and one romantic thriller under the same pen name. Too late to fix that now. But my WIP is space opera. You're saying that I need to use another pen name, even if I lose my readers. Do I need a different web site for each pen name / genre? How do I let my readers know about the new book?
> 
> ...


I think some people who have become successful tend to forget that what they did, what they wrote, worked for them. It won't work for everyone. It may not even work for them with the next series, much less the next book. Styles of stories go in and out of fashion

Every one of us needs to forge our own path, and if "writing to market" works, then go for it. You have to be able to adapt and change gears quickly when a trend fades, but many, many people have made very good money writing this way.


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## TBD (Mar 14, 2014)

RKC said:


> I believe Mark Dawson has a good course on Facebook advertising. Haven't taken it myself though.


Someone who handles FB advertising professionally told me that everything you need to know is on Jon Loomer's site -- for free. In other words, no need to take the classes ;-) I am slowly working my way thru the material. Because FB changes so quickly, I started with the most recent and am working backwards ;-)


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## Lukeofkondor (Jul 15, 2015)

Great advice!

Perfect for where I'm at right now. I'm just unsure whether to use KU or go wide, but I guess that's what everyone's asking right now.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

CM Raymond said:


> I'm pretty new here.
> 
> Now I know that ゴジラ is a bad ass.


If you think she's bad ass now, you should've seen the profile pic she used to have. 
And yes, as others have said, she is a proven self-publishing guru so anyone here struggling should listen up and take notes.


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## Jaimi Sorrell (May 30, 2014)

ゴジラ said:


> It actually says "lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire."


Well, Godzilla is lord and master of all, pretty much...and king of the world...and if you can get past the huge reptile thing, pretty sexy, too...


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## Jaimi Sorrell (May 30, 2014)

gorvnice said:


> Yup, the write what's in your heart advice is just usually given by those whose hearts happened to align naturally with market forces.
> 
> Of course, they don't seem to ever notice this...but those of us who've had to adjust because our hearts didn't fit the market, do realize there's a big difference.


I think you smacked the nail right on the head there. I was actually going to say the same thing but you beat me to it.

It sort of reminds me of some advice I heard from a business coach once. He said that the breakout mega successes can't possibly teach you how to replicate what they did because they don't really know themselves why it happened. What they did, came completely naturally to them. They worked hard, of course, but they also had great timing...they hit the right genre at the right time with the right book/series. And you can't "game" timing.


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## Jaimi Sorrell (May 30, 2014)

Shei Darksbane said:


> What does this mean? Flog?


Flog = Sell.


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

Thank you so much for this! Already heeding your advice. I am writing book 2, as encouraged by a few readers, and have lowered my price from 3.99 to 2.99 (in review right now with Amazon).  I'm thinking of changing my cover (again) and having a professional do it, not sure.  It's a paranormal romance/thriller - do you think it screams that? It's my Black 21 book below.  The girl on the cover is tortured by the decisions she must make, but there's also a hot romance in there.  I've had great feedback so far, but have had someone say the cover wouldn't have caught their attention if I didn't promote the story on Goodreads.  Again, thanks and will be saving this one!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Nancy- your Black 21 cover doesn't say paranormal romance or thriller, sorry...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for the new thread,  ゴジラ. I won't argue with any of the advice, since yours is always very good, although I will say that the short series thing may depend on genre. Mystery readers, for example, tend to like long series.


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## Michael Parnell (Aug 25, 2014)

Thanks for all the new, updated advice. 

I followed your old advice and lost everything (kidding).  

Seriously, thanks for the post. I appreciate it when authors put themselves out there in public and risk arguments, ridicule, etc. I hope all of you who are trying to help the rest of us sell a gazillion books.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Heh, you said pretty much what I've thought for a long time.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> It actually says "lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire."


Well, dang. That was what I was going to change my name to.

Glad you're back! You've been missed!


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## Carol M (Dec 31, 2012)

Thank you. Excellent advice and very helpful.


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Nancy- your Black 21 cover doesn't say paranormal romance or thriller, sorry...


Thanks for being honest and will seriously consider changing! My feeling as well...

Update: I just asked a blogger/reviewer that just reviewed my book her feelings, and she said she loves the cover and it depicts what the story is about, gives this mystical, whimsical feeling that is carried throughout the story. Ugh...I just don't know what to do. I think if they see it without knowing the story, it might not capture their attention, but if they know the story, then it makes sense. What do I do?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> I think readers in many genres, including UF, prefer long series (as long as they're good, obviously). The problem is getting those later books to those readers. When you publish books 2-3 and maybe 4 of a series, Amazon sends out all sorts of lovely emails to readers to help them get through the whole series. They also do other recos to help sales flood to book 1 of that series. The volume of those recos and emails seems to significantly dwindle after books 4/5+.


Now that is interesting, thanks.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

ゴジラ said:


> I think readers in many genres, including UF, prefer long series (as long as they're good, obviously). The problem is getting those later books to those readers. When you publish books 2-3 and maybe 4 of a series, Amazon sends out all sorts of lovely emails to readers to help them get through the whole series. They also do other recos to help sales flood to book 1 of that series. The volume of those recos and emails seems to significantly dwindle after books 4/5+.
> 
> Since our personal mailing lists tend to only have 30-60% open rates (if you have better than that, don't tell me, I don't want to be jealous today) it's just really hard to get books 4-5+ to the readers. What's the point of writing more if readers aren't getting them? It's tricky.
> 
> ...


Interesting. So what you are saying is instead of publishing "I love my stepbrother" 1-9, doing a series of "I love my stepbrother" 1-3 then "I love my other stepbrother" 1-3 and "I love both my stepbrothers" 1-3 but all within the same world?

Also, I am now wondering what happens with recommendations if you publish a series with volume numbers, which would work with say a murder mystery series that could be read in any order.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

kathrynoh said:


> Also, I am now wondering what happens with recommendations if you publish a series with volume numbers, which would work with say a murder mystery series that could be read in any order.


I'd like to know that, as I am up to book 9 in my mystery series and haven't seen any drop-off in sales yet. I signed up to all the Amazon emails I could find a week or two ago, mainly to see if mine appear on them. No luck yet, though .


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I'd like to know that, as I am up to book 9 in my mystery series and haven't seen any drop-off in sales yet. I signed up to all the Amazon emails I could find a week or two ago, mainly to see if mine appear on them. No luck yet, though .


I'm up to book seven in two series and I see no drop off. They will both go into double digits. My grim reapers series won't, but that's because the story isn't there for it to go that long. I'm not a hundred percent sure when it will end, but it will probably be around book seven. I start writing book three for an October release in about two weeks. The new series I'm launching (probably in January) will go to double-digits, too.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Long series usually see a drop off because the writing sees a drop off. The series become something totally different than how they started. Some times the author can't think of any original plots but feels pressure to still release, causing a drop off in quality. A lot of things can go wrong, and I see it over and over again especially in UF.


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## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

ゴジラ said:


> I think readers in many genres, including UF, prefer long series (as long as they're good, obviously). The problem is getting those later books to those readers. When you publish books 2-3 and maybe 4 of a series, Amazon sends out all sorts of lovely emails to readers to help them get through the whole series. They also do other recos to help sales flood to book 1 of that series. The volume of those recos and emails seems to significantly dwindle after books 4/5+.
> 
> Since our personal mailing lists tend to only have 30-60% open rates (if you have better than that, don't tell me, I don't want to be jealous today) it's just really hard to get books 4-5+ to the readers. What's the point of writing more if readers aren't getting them? It's tricky.
> 
> ...


My series is 4 books. And I am soon to release the prequel. I have LOTS of reviews where readers are begging for more. The soon-to-be 4 books is under an Amazon imprint. I told my editor I was thinking of writing one last book to wrap up a few loose ends and just give a finale book. She said she didn't want to discourage me, but their analysis showed that _in most cases _sales significantly drop off after the third book in a series. She didn't quite come out and say it, but I got the feeling they wouldn't be interested in picking up a 5th book. (They actually turned down book 4, saying they were happy with just the trilogy, so I self published it. A few months ago when they offered a contract on The Palest Ink--which can stand alone and will be marketed that way--they went ahead and picked up book 4 too and re-launched it, I think just to make me happy.)

I will still probably write that book 5 and self publish it if they don't want it, but she's a straight shooter and wouldn't mislead me. So I won't get my hopes up that book 5 will sell like the first books. But that's okay because whether they promote it or not, I want to give the story a finale for those die hard fans who are loyal enough to see it through.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

*************


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Nancy Glynn said:


> Thanks for being honest and will seriously consider changing! My feeling as well...
> 
> Update: I just asked a blogger/reviewer that just reviewed my book her feelings, and she said she loves the cover and it depicts what the story is about, gives this mystical, whimsical feeling that is carried throughout the story. Ugh...I just don't know what to do. *I think if they see it without knowing the story, it might not capture their attention, but if they know the story, then it makes sense.* What do I do?


You just answered your own question. Who are you trying to sell the book to -- people who've read the story, or people who haven't?

I agree with Annie that your cover isn't hitting the mark as paranormal romance or thriller, sorry!


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Nancy Glynn said:


> Thanks for being honest and will seriously consider changing! My feeling as well...
> 
> Update: I just asked a blogger/reviewer that just reviewed my book her feelings, and she said she loves the cover and it depicts what the story is about, gives this mystical, whimsical feeling that is carried throughout the story. Ugh...I just don't know what to do. I think if they see it without knowing the story, it might not capture their attention, but if they know the story, then it makes sense. What do I do?


I'm not going to tell you what to do, but consider that she's already read it. Whether it depicts what's in the book accurately or not isn't really the purpose of a cover--it's designed to get browsers to click. It's a billboard, that's all. Would someone looking for a paranormal romance see a tiny thumbnail of that cover and click? Not if it doesn't look like paranormal romance.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

ゴジラ said:


> "Not ignored, but not given lots of love" is my feeling. I THINK they will continue to email people who bought your old books about new releases in that series until the end of time, but I'm not sure they keep pushing out aggressively to new audiences. I'm really not clear on the mechanisms at work here. I'm speaking from a collection of observations across lots of series (not just those I publish, but other authors I stalk too). Not a huge amount of data, but lots of Feelings and Emotions, and seeing people publish book 10 of their series with book 1 barely getting a bump.
> 
> Amanda, you're getting a volume of sales from top 100 visibility alone that will make it harder to tell where your sales originate from. I assume you also have a way to contact many of your readers, which will get you pretty reliable new release numbers. (You're not on my author-stalkees list, sorry. I don't know your specific details.) I don't have trouble reaching lofty rankings with each of my new releases, though not top 100. It's behavior over the entire series in the weeks to come that seems to weaken incrementally. How quickly does book 10 fall after you publish it? (Not you-you, general you.) How high does book 1 rise after publishing book 3? How high does book 1 rise after publishing book 10? How quickly does book 1 fall after book 10? Those are the kinds of things I'm thinking about here which shape my suggestion that authors stick to 3-4 books in a series.


I agree with most of this, but not the part about limiting how long you put out books in a series. In a popular series, even far into it, books can sell really well.  Now they won't boost book one very high, that's true. But the new books in the old series are still making you a lot of money.

When you start a new series, you don't always carry fans over from the old series, which is why I try and do both at the same time. Each one is a hedge against the other.

Once a new series takes off, then I might consider ending an older, less well performing series. But unless the old series absolutely is tanking with newer releases, I keep that gravy train rolling...


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> I'm not going to tell you what to do, but consider that she's already read it. Whether it depicts what's in the book accurately or not isn't really the purpose of a cover--it's designed to get browsers to click. It's a billboard, that's all. Would someone looking for a paranormal romance see a tiny thumbnail of that cover and click? Not if it doesn't look like paranormal romance.





dianasg said:


> You just answered your own question. Who are you trying to sell the book to -- people who've read the story, or people who haven't?
> 
> I agree with Annie that your cover isn't hitting the mark as paranormal romance or thriller, sorry!


Thanks...need to hear it. I want to attract a potential reader by looking at the cover. I just can't go with covers with shirtless men lol. I'll look into it more. I totally get what you're saying.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Nancy Glynn said:


> I want to attract a potential reader by looking at the cover. I just can't go with covers with shirtless men lol.


Why would you say this? Like, I get that it might not fit your branding, but that's not the way it sounds here. To me, it sounds like you're bothered by the generic feel of all these covers with shirtless men. Like it's somehow demeaning to the work.

And I'm not saying that type of cover would fit your book. But I do wonder if you have an underlying attitude about what is "good" and how you won't stoop to a certain level (like shirtless dudes on covers) to sell your work?

I'm not sure if I just read too much into it, since you didn't say why you couldn't do that. My point is, if shirtless dudes sell books in your specified genre than you might want to rethink that notion. And slap a dang shirtless dude on the cover. LOL.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> It's behavior over the entire series in the weeks to come that seems to weaken incrementally. How quickly does book 10 fall after you publish it? (Not you-you, general you.) How high does book 1 rise after publishing book 3? How high does book 1 rise after publishing book 10? How quickly does book 1 fall after book 10? Those are the kinds of things I'm thinking about here which shape my suggestion that authors stick to 3-4 books in a series.


Again, lots of food for thought here. Book 7 in my series did stonkingly well and had a tail that seemed to last forever, and I haven't managed to replicate that with the subsequent two releases. However, book 7 was a new release over Christmas, so I've been attributing its performance to that fact.


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Why would you say this? Like, I get that it might not fit your branding, but that's not the way it sounds here. To me, it sounds like you're bothered by the generic feel of all these covers with shirtless men. Like it's somehow demeaning to the work.
> 
> And I'm not saying that type of cover would fit your book. But I do wonder if you have an underlying attitude about what is "good" and how you won't stoop to a certain level (like shirtless dudes on covers) to sell your work?
> 
> I'm not sure if I just read too much into it, since you didn't say why you couldn't do that. My point is, if shirtless dudes sell books in your specified genre than you might want to rethink that notion. And slap a dang shirtless dude on the cover. LOL.


Oh, I'm sorry if I offended you! Not my intention at all! Maybe it's my own issue, but I know they sell at lightening speed. I like mystery, like even the tie on 50 Shades. I used to read bodice rippers as a teen, and it just reminds me of that lol. Not trying to sound judgmental, just my own preference. I know it does work and a lot of women love these covers. Not generic at all or demeaning, I promise! I also like titles that aren't so obvious of what the story is about and just feel that way for covers as well. I'm in the process of changing my cover as I'm taking advice here. You're right...maybe I'll go with a "shirtless dude" in the end! I have some interesting pictures on my Pinterest board for my book, so I get trying attract a reader. I'm still learning as I go. Again, I'm sorry!


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Nancy Glynn said:


> Oh, I'm sorry if I offended you! Not my intention at all! Maybe it's my own issue, but I know they sell at lightening speed. I like mystery, like even the tie on 50 Shades. I used to read bodice rippers as a teen, and it just reminds me of that lol. Not trying to sound judgmental, just my own preference. I know it does work and a lot of women love these covers. Not generic at all or demeaning, I promise! I also like titles that aren't so obvious of what the story is about and just feel that way for covers as well. I'm in the process of changing my cover as I'm taking advice here. Your'e right...maybe I'll go with a "shirtless dude" in the end! I have some interesting pictures on my Pinterest board for my book, so I get trying attract a reader. I'm still learning as I go. Again, I'm sorry!


Not offended in the least. More concerned...concerned that you'd turn away from a cover that might SELL YOUR BOOK based on a prejudice or personal preference about those kinds of covers, which is sort of what you've said here.

So I'm just trying to be helpful in that it might be important for you to reexamine what makes a good cover. It's not what is most beautiful, captivating or what best tells your book's story.

It's what sells. Now, of course you don't want to indicate the wrong tone or genre--you want to place your book in the correct category by branding it within its proper niche.

If that niche is one where covers tend to have skimpily clad men and women, or bare chested men, or whatever--you do it.

IMO, of course...


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> Not offended in the least. More concerned...concerned that you'd turn away from a cover that might SELL YOUR BOOK based on a prejudice or personal preference about those kinds of covers, which is sort of what you've said here.
> 
> So I'm just trying to be helpful in that it might be important for you to reexamine what makes a good cover. It's not what is most beautiful, captivating or what best tells your book's story.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your concern and definitely get what you're saying. Maybe I just need to get over myself, ha! You're right, though. I need to look at this as more of a business and do what sells. I'm always open to hearing opinions and always take them seriously from fellow writers, so thanks for that!


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

*************


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Nancy Glynn said:


> I appreciate your concern and definitely get what you're saying. Maybe I just need to get over myself, ha! You're right, though. I need to look at this as more of a business and do what sells. I'm always open to hearing opinions and always take them seriously from fellow writers, so thanks for that!


By the way, I'm not at all certain--based on reading your blurb and seeing your categories--if that shirtless guy cover would be at all appropriate. I'm a bit confused about where this book really fits in the marketplace.

I will say that readers don't do well with brand confusion. If they get confused, they just skip to something else. That's been my experience....


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## Julianna (Jun 28, 2015)

Briteka said:


> Long series usually see a drop off because the writing sees a drop off. The series become something totally different than how they started. Some times the author can't think of any original plots but feels pressure to still release, causing a drop off in quality. A lot of things can go wrong, and I see it over and over again especially in UF.


I think that's what happened with the Sookie Stackhouse series. Towards the end of the series, the reviews were littered with 1's.


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## Nancy_G (Jun 22, 2015)

gorvnice said:


> By the way, I'm not at all certain--based on reading your blurb and seeing your categories--if that shirtless guy cover would be at all appropriate. I'm a bit confused about where this book really fits in the marketplace.
> 
> I will say that readers don't do well with brand confusion. If they get confused, they just skip to something else. That's been my experience....


Still playing with my keywords as well. It's a supernatural thriller/paranormal romance. I was just kidding about using a shirtless guy on this particular book. That would never work and have other ideas of what I want. Thanks for your input.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

ゴジラ said:


> This is true. If you've got a series that's still performing awesomely at book 10 and you're happy with all of that, why stop? Ryk Brown is a nice example of a guy who is on book umptymillion of his core series and can probably keep doing that until our sun expands and devours Mercury.
> 
> But then look at SF authors like Nick Webb and Joshua Dalzelle to see what I mean about guys whose series did well, but then they did EVEN BETTER once they started over.
> 
> You don't carry over the entirety of your old audience when you start a new series, but you must always seek out new audience anyway. That never ends no matter what you're writing.


ゴジラ, do you think it'd be a good idea, with longer series, to market story arcs as quasi-separate series? Like, if you have a potentially 12-book series, cluster books around three or four overarching plots and then give each arc its own series title. I'm thinking the titles would be similar enough to turn up in searches on the first series title ... something like Wolf Storm, Wolf Storm at Sea, Wolf Storm Last Days, etc., so if someone searched on "wolf storm," they'd find all the arcs. That would let you treat each fourth or fifth book in the series as a fresh start and as a loss-leader.

I'm asking because I'm thinking in terms of discrete story arcs for my own series, but I'd planned to just keep the series title the same throughout. Maybe that's not the best choice, though.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My grim reapers series won't, but that's because the story isn't there for it to go that long. I'm not a hundred percent sure when it will end, but it will probably be around book seven.


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## 鬼 (Sep 30, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> ゴジラ, do you think it'd be a good idea, with longer series, to market story arcs as quasi-separate series? Like, if you have a potentially 12-book series, cluster books around three or four overarching plots and then give each arc its own series title. I'm thinking the titles would be similar enough to turn up in searches on the first series title ... something like Wolf Storm, Wolf Storm at Sea, Wolf Storm Last Days, etc., so if someone searched on "wolf storm," they'd find all the arcs. That would let you treat each fourth or fifth book in the series as a fresh start and as a loss-leader.
> 
> I'm asking because I'm thinking in terms of discrete story arcs for my own series, but I'd planned to just keep the series title the same throughout. Maybe that's not the best choice, though.


I'd be curious to know the answer to this as well.


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## GhostGirlWriter (Jul 14, 2015)

Great post! "Flog 'em like they're long-haired waifish Laurell K Hamilton characters" is my new marketing motto. 

Regading series length, I've seen a couple of romance authors (Jill Shalvis with Lucky Harbor and Bella Andre with The Sullivans) break up a long series into several mini-series "bundled" stories. Shalvis' Lucky Harbor series has a Chocoholics trilogy, a Three Sisters trilogy, and so on. Andre has different Sullivan family branches. I was wondering if it would be worth doing something like that with my series and your post seems to indicate that it's a worthwhile tweak. Thanks!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm sure this is great advice.
The funny thing is that I did absolutely, positively NONE of it, and still don't. In fact, I've pretty much done the opposite on every single point. 
Except hopefully my books don't suck. Too much.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

But if he awakes, I'm sure he'll be suitably appreciative of your annual address, Gojira. Thanks for being you!


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Book ones get tired. Played out in the algos. Every book has a core audience, whether it's a hundred readers, or a million. The more that audience gets tapped out, the worse that entry book does every time Amazon tries to take it for a spin.

I'm almost sure that much is true. My gut, which is much less reliable, also tells me that a subset of readers don't _want_ ultra-long series. So when they see #10 in an existing series riding high, the idea of jumping in at the beginning is exhausting, leading to a worse performance for that entry book. This is obviously not true of everyone, as evidenced by the fact that book #10 in a series still sells copies. But I do think the set of "people willing to start a ten-book series" is smaller than the set including "people willing to start a trilogy."

If your series is enough of a juggernaut, this doesn't matter, really, because the sell-through on ten books or fifteen makes up for the dwindling excitement around that first book.

But if you do reach the point where it feels harder and harder to push that first book up the hill, it's worth thinking about whether it's time to try something new.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Book ones get tired. Played out in the algos. Every book has a core audience, whether it's a hundred readers, or a million. The more that audience gets tapped out, the worse that entry book does every time Amazon tries to take it for a spin.
> 
> I'm almost sure that much is true. My gut, which is much less reliable, also tells me that a subset of readers don't _want_ ultra-long series. So when they see #10 in an existing series riding high, the idea of jumping in at the beginning is exhausting, leading to a worse performance for that entry book. This is obviously not true of everyone, as evidenced by the fact that book #10 in a series still sells copies. But I do think the set of "people willing to start a ten-book series" is smaller than the set including "people willing to start a trilogy."
> 
> ...


Totally agree


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/Festive-Death-Book-39-ebook/dp/B00INIYH78/ref=la_B000APT7Y0_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437288050&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Families-Nero-Wolfe-Mystery-ebook/dp/B003V4BPVK/ref=la_B000APAX3E_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437288187&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Clutch-Constables-Inspector-Roderick-Inspectr-ebook/dp/B00XUEJN2O/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1437288257&sr=1-3&keywords=roderick+alleyn

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Battle-Book-Sorcerers-Ring-ebook/dp/B00Q3840W2/ref=la_B004KYW5SW_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437288572&sr=1-7

I can't see why all these authors (and so many more) keep writing in the same series if its such a losing proposition...haven't found it to be in my own work, either...


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> Thank you for contributing to the conversation.
> 
> I don't remember saying this is the only way to do well. I'm also pretty sure you didn't get started in 2015. For the record, I started doing reasonably well in 2012 and did basically none of this to start my main writing name. This stuff is doing well enough for my pseudonyms launched this year though.
> 
> Also, I firmly believe no books suck and have zero interest in or opinion of the quality of your writing.


I actually wasn't meaning to be snarky. 
I was just saying it WAS funny. I'm sure I could have done a lot of things better.

But to contribute: Re different pen names--I'm in 3 subgenres--well, sort of 4, as I've got one series that's all sports romance. I've found that having the same author name is very helpful. The series are well branded so you can see the difference in tone and subgenre from the covers. But I have a lot of readers who seem pretty willing to read across my series. I did consider another pen name, but then I thought it would just make it harder for readers to find me. In fact, the different pen name thing has always puzzled me, unless the genres are really different. Perhaps somebody could explain that to me.

As far as timing--that's this year. Before 2015, I had two series, both in the same general subgenre.

I also do think paperbacks help with making you look credible. It's a more subtle thing, not something a reader would point to, but I think something happens on the subconscious level with that.

A value-added website was something that helped me a lot, and that I'd still do if I were starting today. But that's only if you have something about the thing you write where you CAN add value--have fun stuff that people will actually enjoy.

Length of series--it may depend on whether it is same characters/continuing story or not. In my genre, many series are stand-alones in the same world. I find that continuing a series in that case makes a lot of sense--in the same way that retaining a customer is much cheaper and easier than finding a new customer. (Not to say that one shouldn't always find new customers. But you aren't having to "sell" a whole new series to everybody quite as often.) Also, any book can be a funnel.

I won't comment on the other stuff as I don't feel all that qualified to give an opinion on the best way.


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## Jack Krenneck (Feb 9, 2014)

For what it's worth, I think the OP's current strategies are excellent. 

I might also note that many successful authors follow similar strategies - even if they pretend otherwise  - or don't recognize the similarities themselves.

As for some of the disadvantages of a longer series, I think Morgan Rice is a classic example. With each Sorcerer's Ring release the money-grabbing-author and when-will-this series-ever-end reviews became increasingly strident. 

All things are relative, but from where Morgan Rice stood his/her new series when it came out (after the Sorcerer's Ring finally finished) struggled to gain the traction of the previous books. I think it even went free - which is unusual for an author who once dominated practically every one of the twenty slots on the first page of various bestseller lists.

I'm not saying the new series is doing badly. But from where the previous series was - yes, well I'm saying it started off badly with the momentum that it should have had to push it along.

Also, Morgan Rice often offers other books in the Sorcerer's Ring series for free as well, not just the first one. This is to encourage the people who've had enough of a long-winded series to get back in the saddle. 

Many people who were hooked on the first series had to finish it - but they wised up on the second and decided to wait until it was finished before they started it.

I think the shorter series idea is savvy. Readers have long memories and a career should last decades not a handful of years. Damage done at the beginning is hard to repair.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Incredible thread. Thank you!


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I completely agree with Rosalind on paperbacks. It takes -- what -- thirty minutes to format a paperback? It adds to legitimacy if people see it and it makes the ebook price more attractive because it's so much cheaper. That's a mental thing. Now, granted, my monthly paperback sales are only $600-$1,000, making it my third revenue stream behind audio and ebook, but even if I only make $9,000 on paperbacks a year, why leave that money on the table?
As for series, a lot of authors write far too long on a series because that's what their readers demand. I've seen that with trade and indie books. They think that people won't necessarily read a second series -- and in some cases they might be right. You ensure that's more likely to happen, IMO, by writing in only one series for a long time and getting reader expectations up that this world is (and always will be) your biggest priority. That's why I trained my readers to expect multiple series in rotation. It gives you more funnels into your work, cuts down on world fatigue, and makes readers realize that it's not always going to be one world. As for length, I find my readership for each series expand with each new entry so, with respect to the OP, I think keeping a series short could be akin to shooting yourself in the foot since some people won't even pick up a series until there are at least seven entries to burn through.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> It actually says "lord and master of all, sexy sexpot everyone adores, king of the world, esquire."


Well, that works for me SM!
But... when I did a Googley thingamajig I got 'Godzilla' back...
Hmmm


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I completely agree with Rosalind on paperbacks. It takes -- what -- thirty minutes to format a paperback? It adds to legitimacy if people see it and it makes the ebook price more attractive because it's so much cheaper. That's a mental thing. Now, granted, my monthly paperback sales are only $600-$1,000, making it my third revenue stream behind audio and ebook, but even if I only make $9,000 on paperbacks a year, why leave that money on the table?
> As for series, a lot of authors write far too long on a series because that's what their readers demand. I've seen that with trade and indie books. They think that people won't necessarily read a second series -- and in some cases they might be right. You ensure that's more likely to happen, IMO, by writing in only one series for a long time and getting reader expectations up that this world is (and always will be) your biggest priority. That's why I trained my readers to expect multiple series in rotation. It gives you more funnels into your work, cuts down on world fatigue, and makes readers realize that it's not always going to be one world. As for length, I find my readership for each series expand with each new entry so, with respect to the OP, I think keeping a series short could be akin to shooting yourself in the foot since some people won't even pick up a series until there are at least seven entries to burn through.


Good points. I too rotate on series. I'm writing actively in 3 right now. The 4th one will also get a "sideways" addition with my next book--I have a new series where the first book's a sort-of spinoff from Series 1, and the second book will be a spinoff from Series 2. I do find that new books in any series will keep it alive. (But as I said--I write standalones, so it's a little different.)

The real thing is--let's see if I can express myself--some readers get really, really wedded to their favorite of your series. They just don't want to leave their Happy Place and read something else from you, especially if the tone is a little different. That's one reason I did this "spinoff" thing into a new subgenre--give them a way to ease into a new series. I did that with my new romantic suspense series, too--I set it in the same town as Book 1 of my Series 2. That's really pushed the sales of Series 2 also. People have read the suspense book and then sought out the first book of Series 2 (which has the same town name in the title), and gone on to read the other books in that series.

So--finding a way to get readers to go back and forth is important. At the same time, I don't want to stop writing my Series 1, because it IS the favorite. As long as I still have satisfying stories to tell, and readers are buying. But the last couple full novels have had 1 year in between books. It actually doesn't seem to have hurt sales--just heightened anticipation. When I brought out Book 6 one year ago after a year's gap, it was my biggest month ever.

As far as audio--I sort of agree that it's iffy now. My Series 1 books have done very well, and I've earned quite a lot on them in the past year. But with the new terms, it's definitely tougher. But if you find you're selling very well down the road and have the money to risk (nice deduction!), it CAN certainly be profitable. Not as profitable--not nearly--as an ebook, unless you're in a great audiobook genre (not romance), and you have a fabulous narrator. But still some nice money. Especially with the bounties, if you do well. Sad but true--during my last full month of being wide, I earned more in bounties alone on Audible than on all the ebooks sites other than iTunes and Nook! Sad! Without a new release on my ACX series for a couple months.

Oh, and the audio thing is another reason I price my first book at 99 cents. With WhisperSync, that really helps my audio sales and bounties--makes it super easy for somebody to try my audio. That and that I tried pricing it at $2.99 for a few months (until late November, so fairly recently), and it really had a negative impact on my sales of the series. I've found 99 cents to be a great spot for ONE book. On my Series 2, the first book is $2.99. On the other two series, the first books are full price.

The other two things I've done that I think might be helpful to NEW authors: I put the first chapter or two of the next book in the back of every book (not just a link), and I put an excerpt from the book (short) on the "From the Author" spot in Author Central. (I use "From the Inside Flap" and label it "Excerpt.") I think that last one REALLY helps. You always want to avoid "having to click more" in marketing. Lowest number of clicks is the best. If they can glance at the page they're on and see that your writing doesn't suck, and especially if that excerpt draws them in, I think they're much more likely to buy.

Here's an example if you want to see one. I try to pick something that really gives the "feel" of the book. In this case, small-town, funny & sexy were what I was going for (even though it's suspense!) Plus giving a feel for the characters and their relationship.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SZ35DGU/


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## RN_Wright (Jan 7, 2014)

Ah, fresh marketing meat from someone who has the touch! Many thanks.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> Good points. I too rotate on series. I'm writing actively in 3 right now. The 4th one will also get a "sideways" addition with my next book--I have a new series where the first book's a sort-of spinoff from Series 1, and the second book will be a spinoff from Series 2. I do find that new books in any series will keep it alive. (But as I said--I write standalones, so it's a little different.)
> 
> The real thing is--let's see if I can express myself--some readers get really, really wedded to their favorite of your series. They just don't want to leave their Happy Place and read something else from you, especially if the tone is a little different. That's one reason I did this "spinoff" thing into a new subgenre--give them a way to ease into a new series. I did that with my new romantic suspense series, too--I set it in the same town as Book 1 of my Series 2. That's really pushed the sales of Series 2 also. People have read the suspense book and then sought out the first book of Series 2 (which has the same town name in the title), and gone on to read the other books in that series.
> 
> ...


Right now I am taking all of my profits each month from paperbacks and audio and funneling all of it into new audiobooks. It's not taking anything out of my pockets, and by the time I catch up on everything I figure I should be making at least $5,000 a month (it will probably be more but I always lowball on estimates). That will be an addition of $60,000 a year. Now, granted, I don't foresee being caught up until January, but once I am that should be nice passive income.


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## jay_owen (Jan 1, 2015)

ゴジラ, my inaugural post, just wanted to say thanks for this -- very helpful for a writer like myself just starting out.  And many thanks to everyone else who has contributed!


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Right now I am taking all of my profits each month from paperbacks and audio and funneling all of it into new audiobooks. It's not taking anything out of my pockets, and by the time I catch up on everything I figure I should be making at least $5,000 a month (it will probably be more but I always lowball on estimates). That will be an addition of $60,000 a year. Now, granted, I don't foresee being caught up until January, but once I am that should be nice passive income.


That's a smart investment. Audio sales tripled across the board from last year. I believe they'll continue to grow in 2015-16. They're still a good 50% of my revenue.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> That's a smart investment. Audio sales tripled across the board from last year. I believe they'll continue to grow in 2015-16. They're still a good 50% of my revenue.


That's what I figured. I'm not dipping into my savings to do it. It's slow to produce sometimes. I've started on two (soon to be three) pen name series, too. I won't be doing the series with a lot of sex scenes, but I'm doing all the others. I think I have five in production right now and will add more as I go. I have to get three ready to put up in the next month, too. I'm waiting for one to go live and I have to listen and approve another next week.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's what I figured. I'm not dipping into my savings to do it. It's slow to produce sometimes. I've started on two (soon to be three) pen name series, too. I won't be doing the series with a lot of sex scenes, but I'm doing all the others. I think I have five in production right now and will add more as I go. I have to get three ready to put up in the next month, too. I'm waiting for one to go live and I have to listen and approve another next week.


E-romance and erotica sell very well in audio, fyi.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Annie B said:


> E-romance and erotica sell very well in audio, fyi.


I'm not ruling it out down the road. The other series sell better so I'm focusing on them.


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## GhostGirlWriter (Jul 14, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> The real thing is--let's see if I can express myself--some readers get really, really wedded to their favorite of your series. They just don't want to leave their Happy Place and read something else from you, especially if the tone is a little different. That's one reason I did this "spinoff" thing into a new subgenre--give them a way to ease into a new series. I did that with my new romantic suspense series, too--I set it in the same town as Book 1 of my Series 2. That's really pushed the sales of Series 2 also. People have read the suspense book and then sought out the first book of Series 2 (which has the same town name in the title), and gone on to read the other books in that series.
> 
> So--finding a way to get readers to go back and forth is important.


Great point. I'm trying to come up with a similar strategy. It's not easy.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> E-romance and erotica sell very well in audio, fyi.


i was gonna say this. I've followed what sells in contemporary romance (in audio) pretty closely this past year. It's mostly trad and big indies. For indies in romance, it definitely looks like the more sex the better. Erom dominates (so to speak).

Romantic suspense--not so. Also chick lit not so. But contemp--yes.


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## JeanetteRaleigh (Jan 1, 2013)

I'd like to add to what Amanda said about paperbacks.  

My first paperback took a vast amount longer than 1/2 hour and I didn't go back until well, I'm just doing it now, so in the next few months, you'll start to see my stuff showing up. Createspace has MUCH improved their import button.  

So if you tried it years ago like I did (struggling to format those gutters, section breaks and the like) and never went back, give it another try...it definitely is better.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> i was gonna say this. I've followed what sells in contemporary romance (in audio) pretty closely this past year. It's mostly trad and big indies. For indies in romance, it definitely looks like the more sex the better. Erom dominates (so to speak).
> 
> Romantic suspense--not so. Also chick lit not so. But contemp--yes.


My sex series is romantic suspense. I just don't know if I'm going to put it in audio or not.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> My sex series is romantic suspense. I just don't know if I'm going to put it in audio or not.


(a bit off topic tor the thread, sorry.)

I had a series like that. I sold it to Audible Studios instead. Got some nice money upfront to pay for some ACX audio, and didn't have to do any work. That could be an option. Just a thought.


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## AmieStuart (Oct 25, 2013)

ゴジラ said:


> *Author name*
> 
> One pseudonym per subgenre. You can have multiple series with that one pseudonym, but they all need to be the same subgenre.
> 
> Don't argue with me, smalls. Just do it.


Major points for the Smalls reference. LOL OK oh wise one, I have some erotica I wrote back in 200*cough* but I'm not writing that now. I'm writing sexy contemporary. It's what I'm known for. It's what I like. It's what I plan to write a lot more of. But I want to still write some (longish) erotica under a new pen name and am working on some stuff for 2016. But what do I do with that old erotica? How do I re-release it under a new pen name (it's 3 novellas) and not leave people who read the original feeling tricked or scammed if they buy it again (like five fans a long time ago but still).....FWIW the old stuff fits with the new stuff.

*listens*

Ames


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## Laterz (Jul 8, 2015)

Chris Fox said:


> That's a smart investment. Audio sales tripled across the board from last year. I believe they'll continue to grow in 2015-16. They're still a good 50% of my revenue.


I wasn't a believer in audiobooks until that first check showed up. Nearly $2000 in a month off just one audiobook. Needless to say, I put the rest in production post haste. Royalties have slowed down a bit, but $2500 or so a month of what is essentially bonus money can't be beat. Of course I wouldn't have gotten involved in audio if people didn't keep asking me to sell the rights.

So the lesson? If audiobook producers/companies are emailing you asking about your audibook rights, chances are they know you have a moneymaker on your hands. Do it yourself. It's easy as pie.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

I don't know where that "tripled" stat comes from. According to the Association of American Publishers, audiobooks rose 33% this year from last. That's quite a nice gain... but it's also a very long way from a 200% increase.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

JohnFai said:


> I wasn't a believer in audiobooks until that first check showed up. Nearly $2000 in a month off just one audiobook. Needless to say, I put the rest in production post haste. Royalties have slowed down a bit, but $2500 or so a month of what is essentially bonus money can't be beat. Of course I wouldn't have gotten involved in audio if people didn't keep asking me to sell the rights.
> 
> So the lesson? If audiobook producers/companies are emailing you asking about your audibook rights, chances are they know you have a moneymaker on your hands. Do it yourself. It's easy as pie.


How 'bout start a new thread on how-to get your novels in audio? I haven't a clue where to start, and am thinking of putting my novels into audio.


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## Laterz (Jul 8, 2015)

L.L. Akers said:


> How 'bout start a new thread on how-to get your novels in audio? I haven't a clue where to start, and am thinking of putting my novels into audio.


https://www.acx.com/help/about-acx/200484860 should answer all of your questions. If you have more questions, just ask away, and I and others will be there to answer them.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> I don't know where that "tripled" stat comes from. According to the Association of American Publishers, audiobooks rose 33% this year from last. That's quite a nice gain... but it's also a very long way from a 200% increase.


I probably should have said that with a bit less certainty. A thread was posted here about a study on publishing numbers. It was primarily about ebooks, but it also said that audio had gone up from 1 to 3% of the overall market which is where I was getting that from.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Ah, gotcha. It's really hard to find good numbers on non-ebook stuff. I've been stalking audio a lot lately and, by comparing the top audio ranks to their equivalent ebook ranks, it seems like audio in the top 100 is selling very roughly 25-30% of what ebooks do. Which is kind of huge -- but I also think the tail on audiobooks is much thinner. More winner-takes-all, with a smaller (though present) midlist, and a much smaller small-list.

Now, part of that is because there are fewer audiobooks: for instance, in Epic Fantasy, we've currently got 21,363 books on Kindle, but only 3157 on Audible.com (and 16% of those are non-English). There's a positive in that, too: while the market's smaller, there's also less competition.

At the same time, I want to reiterate that there are far fewer tools to sell on audio. That's a major reason why it's more winner-takes-all. There's so much less churn that if you _do_ hit your audience, you'll stick far longer. But if you don't? Well, at least it's a tax write-off.

Combine that with a) the fact the genre demand is a lot different from ebooks and b) the gigantic importance of a great narrator, and it's a completely different ballgame.

Now, despite all the interminable bloviating I've just done, I want to make it wayyy clear that I'm not at all an audiobook expert. But in my middling observation and experience, the floor for a decent audiobook is much lower than the floor for a decent ebook. Combine that with the high production costs, and it's a much riskier venture. Approach with a stout stomach and eyes open wide!


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

With all due respect to Rosalind and Amanda, they are not new authors. They already sell tons of ebooks and so it makes sense for them to have paperbacks and audio sales. Even if paperbacks/audio sold almost nothing compared to their ebooks, it would be enough to break even.

That does not mean people starting out should invest time or money into either.

It is relatively easy to format paperbacks (just have D2D make you a nice PDF-- you don't have to hit publish), but the extra cover costs add up fast. A lot of designers charge $50-$150 for the paperback version of a cover, and you'll have to pay more for every cover redesign if you go paperbacks. Small potatoes to people who are already making five or six figures, but a lot to people who are struggling to break even on their costs.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> With all due respect to Rosalind and Amanda, they are not new authors. They already sell tons of ebooks and so it makes sense for them to have paperbacks and audio sales. Even if paperbacks/audio sold almost nothing compared to their ebooks, it would be enough to break even.
> 
> That does not mean people starting out should invest time or money into either.
> 
> It is relatively easy to format paperbacks (just have D2D make you a nice PDF-- you don't have to hit publish), but the extra cover costs add up fast. A lot of designers charge $50-$150 for the paperback version of a cover, and you'll have to pay more for every cover redesign if you go paperbacks. Small potatoes to people who are already making five or six figures, but a lot to people who are struggling to break even on their costs.


Many new authors find their best traction going to book festivals and author events. You need paperbacks for that. You can also do revenue share on audio and it doesn't cost you a thing.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I had my blowup month a couple weeks after I put out my 4 books in paperback. I do think the paperbacks helped me look credible. 

I don't sell many. At all. I mean, i think I've had two months where I've sold over 100 copies. Same deal with my two Amazon published books. But they make great prizes for contests (signed), and I've used them since the beginning for that. 

I said I'd do audio if I found myself selling extremely well in ebook. As a romance author, I'd tread warily. Sad but true, romance isn't a big audio genre.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

ゴジラ said:


> *Author name*
> 
> One pseudonym per subgenre. You can have multiple series with that one pseudonym, but they all need to be the same subgenre.


I think this is the only piece I really disagree with. I don't really see the need to use a different name for each subgenre. I write mostly sci-fi and fantasy, in a variety of subgenres, and there's enough of a difference that I don't expect my readers will have a problem differentiating between my space opera, weird western, urban fantasy, and sword and sorcery works. The covers and trade dress and design and so forth are different enough that I trust they'll figure it out.

For other genres, particularly erotica and romance, maybe even YA, sure I see the value of a different name.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Khaleesi said:


> While not everyone agrees with everything SM said, she gives good advice, and has consistently for years.
> 
> For me, this is coming at a super poignant time because I've decided to switch genres. Out of romance and into UF. Following a really bad car accident with both my kids after weeks of stress about KU, I've decided that now is the time to write what I really believe in and would have more fun doing for the long term. Romance made me money and gave me a full time income as an author but sometimes you have to look at what you are doing and decide if it is really what is right for you.
> 
> I appreciate SM, Annie, and Amanda's advice a great deal because they are authors who are doing great in the genre I want to work in. It's awesome to see women making tons of money in genres other than romance. Not that there is anything wrong with romance, but I think sometimes it's easy to get pigeonholed into it because it is so easy to make money in. I never felt romance was my best genre, but I kept writing it exclusively. I am probably taking a big risk since things are so unstable right now, but that in many ways is the best time to take risks.


Wow. I hope you and your kids are okay.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

We are. It was super traumatic, but only the car was injured. My whole world shifted so, so will my writing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> I think this is the only piece I really disagree with. I don't really see the need to use a different name for each subgenre. I write mostly sci-fi and fantasy, in a variety of subgenres, and there's enough of a difference that I don't expect my readers will have a problem differentiating between my space opera, weird western, urban fantasy, and sword and sorcery works. The covers and trade dress and design and so forth are different enough that I trust they'll figure it out.
> 
> For other genres, particularly erotica and romance, maybe even YA, sure I see the value of a different name.


Alsoboughts, actually. That is one big reason. You want your books in the alsoboughts of other books like it, preferably well-selling ones like it. Publishing a lot of stuff under one pen name dilutes your alsoboughts. I know, I made this mistake and regret it. It's too late now for this pen name to separate stuff, but I definitely will be going forward. I think in the old world of things, it probably mattered less, but with how digital recommendations and search algos work, I think it matters more now.

Another reason is branding. Being super clear on what NAME X means in terms of writing style and genre can help you sell and keep selling. If you write in a lot of different genres especially that are further apart than say, contemp romance and romantic suspense, having a clearly branded pen name helps keep your author page from looking like Goodwill or a hoarder's house or something. You want readers to be able to find you, know at a glance what kind of books you write, and be able to find your books without having to page through dozens of books that look totally different from each other or the "wrong" genre etc.

Another reason is that Amazon algos love a brand new name. Dunno exactly why that is (though smarter people than I have sort of explained it and have theories), but I've seen it happen too much to not believe right now.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Scary stuff, Annie. I can't imagine writing and publishing just to appease the Amazon algos. How would all that relate to non-Amazon stores?


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Annie B said:


> Alsoboughts, actually. That is one big reason. You want your books in the alsoboughts of other books like it, preferably well-selling ones like it. Publishing a lot of stuff under one pen name dilutes your alsoboughts. I know, I made this mistake and regret it. It's too late now for this pen name to separate stuff, but I definitely will be going forward. I think in the old world of things, it probably mattered less, but with how digital recommendations and search algos work, I think it matters more now.
> 
> Another reason is branding. Being super clear on what NAME X means in terms of writing style and genre can help you sell and keep selling. If you write in a lot of different genres especially that are further apart than say, contemp romance and romantic suspense, having a clearly branded pen name helps keep your author page from looking like Goodwill or a hoarder's house or something. You want readers to be able to find you, know at a glance what kind of books you write, and be able to find your books without having to page through dozens of books that look totally different from each other or the "wrong" genre etc.
> 
> Another reason is that Amazon algos love a brand new name. Dunno exactly why that is (though smarter people than I have sort of explained it and have theories), but I've seen it happen too much to not believe right now.


SUCH TRUTH HERE.
Amen, these are insights the likes of which you don't typically find. People should be writing this stuff down in their journals, putting it under their pillows at night and meditating on it.

Just from this alone, you can infer so much about what works and doesn't work in the new digital world of selling books.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> Scary stuff, Annie. I can't imagine writing and publishing just to appease the Amazon algos. How would all that relate to non-Amazon stores?


It's not scary at all. It's just seeing the mechanics of how these platforms make discovery happen for books.

It's actually great if you use it to your advantage instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending none of it matters.

Most of the platforms bear some similarity to Amazon in this way, although some are a little less punitive about older work. But Amazon is fairly punitive with older stuff, and so you do have to be careful about maintaining that freshness.

You really want your work to be connected (through alsoboughts and the like) with the most current, best performing books in your genre. Your own books and the weight of your diminishing older sales can become an albatross, like tying an anchor to your leg while you try and swim for the surface of the ocean.

This is in part why people find sales diminishing on book 1's of series and so on. However, there's always a calculation that you need to make with these things.

Yes, older books will drop and become less visible. But that doesn't mean you stop writing under your popular pen name or stop producing work in a popular series. However, you do need to find ways to become entangled with newer stuff, through advertising or linking or promoting, starting new books, and new pen names.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> Scary stuff, Annie. I can't imagine writing and publishing just to appease the Amazon algos. How would all that relate to non-Amazon stores?


Amazon algos make you the most and easiest money if you know how to appease them. They also gain you the most readership. What smart business wouldn't employ those tools? The algos are gold. Looking at Amazon as being as much a search/discovery engine as it is a retailer is a good way to start understanding how to use it to sell your books. If that scares you... perhaps it is you who should take a look at your business model and goals?

As for the other stores, their recommendation engines suck, but they are a smaller version of this. Again, you want your author pages to look branded and clear without tons of disparate things to hunt through. You want your alsoboughts to be full of books that are like your books, not random things that might have been recommended because somebody bought a book of yours in a totally different genre etc. It's not that much different than Amazon.

There are plenty of ways (ok, not that many but more than one) to keep older stuff selling on Amazon. Widening your funnels (putting more older stuff on sale or free) and running constantly rotating promotions is a pretty easy way, for example. Nothing sells forever without help, on any platform. The long tail is fed by having a very strong head, and even then, without help being shoved to the tail, it will die.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I think where my disconnect, Annie, is looking at your own Amazon page and seeing several series as well as a bunch of standalone short stories and other titles in a variety of genres. Moving forward will you be rebranding some of those stories or leaving them with this current name?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> I think where my disconnect, Annie, is looking at your own Amazon page and seeing several series as well as a bunch of standalone short stories and other titles in a variety of genres. Moving forward will you be rebranding some of those stories or leaving them with this current name?


As I said, I've already messed up this name. However, I've recovered a lot of things, made some stuff free, and unpublished about 10 titles at this point. so it's a lot less of a mess than it used to be. If things stop getting at least 200 downloads or 50 sales a month (my thresholds for older work), I'll likely retire those if I can. But at least at this point, people know if they want fantasy with some kind of nerd appeal to it, that's what this name means, so it's something even if I can't totally save it.

Unfortunately, you can't delete things you've claimed on Author Central and paperback listings stay around even if you delist. So there will always be non-selling anthologies and whatever in my author list that I can't do anything about. If I'd been smarter last year, I would have launched the UF under a new name. At this point, I'm going to keep this name more or less only EF and UF that is nerd/gamer centric, and publish other stuff with at least an initial in there or something, even if it is SF to keep it separate.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Annie B said:


> publish other stuff with at least an initial in there or something, even if it is SF to keep it separate.


Ah, that's a bit I wasn't thinking about. Do you think you'll make the pen names secret or have them be largely open? I'm seeing where a slightly different version of a name could just be branding for a different genre. Like Joe Smith for SF, J.D. Smith for romance, Joe D Smith for lit fic, etc. So it's not so much having a secret pen name for each subgenre, but just a slightly different brand of yourself for the different stuff you write.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I'll probably keep mine pretty open, but I wouldn't use my fantasy mailing list to promote my thrillers or anything. I'd have different websites and different mailing lists etc. I might keep a pen name or two sekrit too though, for experimentation reasons and because I really think it doesn't matter that much. Even with a pretty successful Urban Fantasy series, I see maybe 8% cross-over to my Epic Fantasy stuff. And that's with it all under one name.  If I were less lazy, I'd take the time to separate things out and relaunch the Epic Fantasy under a different name. But... I'm lazy.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

I can see the benefits regarding also-boughts etc, but doesn't this also mean each pen name has fewer books and therefore less visibility? And with less buy through from fans who might just want everything you've written?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

B. Yard said:


> I can see the benefits regarding also-boughts etc, but doesn't this also mean each pen name has fewer books and therefore less visibility? And with less buy through from fans who might just want everything you've written?


Depends. If you have a pen name that is selling well, I imagine you'd write more books like the ones selling and under that name, yes?  That would make the most sense to me.

Number of books alone won't drive visibility. You could have 500 titles and still sell very little if you aren't doing other things to help yourself be visible, and then it would be 500 titles to slog through for a reader who just might want only a few of those. Why make things harder than they have to be?


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Depends. If you have a pen name that is selling well, I imagine you'd write more books like the ones selling and under that name, yes?  That would make the most sense to me.
> 
> Number of books alone won't drive visibility. You could have 500 titles and still sell very little if you aren't doing other things to help yourself be visible, and then it would be 500 titles to slog through for a reader who just might want only a few of those. Why make things harder than they have to be?


Ha! Good point!

I would hope that an author's 'voice' and writing style would keep fans across similar subgenres though.


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Thanks for the new thread, ゴジラ. I won't argue with any of the advice, since yours is always very good, although I will say that the short series thing may depend on genre. Mystery readers, for example, tend to like long series.


Yep. I'm on the 8th book of my mystery series now and I can't write them fast enough for my readers. In fact, I keep having to postpone writing a new series because my readers demand more of the original one.

<edit> I really should read through the rest of the thread before posting. As you were.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

B. Yard said:


> Ha! Good point!
> 
> I would hope that an author's 'voice' and writing style would keep fans across similar subgenres though.


You'd hope, but... for 99% of writers, this won't happen. It's hard to retain readers even from series to series in the same genre. If you have your heart set on being the next Neil Gaiman or something, probably a trad career is the way to go, in my opinion. (though even he built his huge core fan base with a series...)


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

I've currently got a book four in an ongoing series (a spin off series of my first), and a book nine and ten of my first series going out this year by December. That longer series isn't close to done and I'd have to write at least another ten to get them that far. 

So really there's eleven books or so books in two series, connected in via their universe, and several more to go. As someone who is writing a longer series, I do get long term readers, I get new readers often, and then people jumping off the parade. But it's basically some give it a break until a few books come out and then some stop reading, but there's usually more readers coming in behind them, and sales are pretty steady. (For now. The markets will change, I'm sure.  ) 

I don't know if I could recommend it. If you get bored pretty easily, stick with short series. But if you have that one particular in mind and want it to run 10+ and it's in your heart to do so, do it. Maybe write a short series in between books so you've got some variety, and give yourself a break between books.

The last three or so made the USA Today lists. My pre-order numbers have increased with each book going forward. I just wanted to pipe in as an ongoing series writer, to say it can be done, but yes, it is an investment. But by book three, I started getting a decent following. So just as a recommendation, maybe plan to write three or four books in a long series, giving yourself room to write more if works out. Maybe add a few novellas if you're still trying to get things going and want new things to release on occasion.

Not sure how helpful this is.  But it's working for me so far. In no way do you need to do this, and you may be better off, if you're still working on improving your writing, on doing short series until you feel comfortable. It requires HEAVY character building. You basically have to make them into real people. And then readers will follow them for years.


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## Mzink (Jul 20, 2015)

As a mutli-published trad pub author dipping my toe in the water of self-pub, I THANK YOU FOR THIS!


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

CLStone said:


> I've currently got a book four in an ongoing series (a spin off series of my first), and a book nine and ten of my first series going out this year by December. That longer series isn't close to done and I'd have to write at least another ten to get them that far.
> 
> So really there's eleven books or so books in two series, connected in via their universe, and several more to go. As someone who is writing a longer series, I do get long term readers, I get new readers often, and then people jumping off the parade. But it's basically some give it a break until a few books come out and then some stop reading, but there's usually more readers coming in behind them, and sales are pretty steady. (For now. The markets will change, I'm sure.  )
> 
> ...


what genre, if u don't mind me asking?


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## LisaLangBlakeney (Dec 1, 2012)

I really appreciate this advice. It was just what I needed to hear at this juncture in my publishing process.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Annie B said:


> Alsoboughts, actually. That is one big reason. You want your books in the alsoboughts of other books like it, preferably well-selling ones like it. Publishing a lot of stuff under one pen name dilutes your alsoboughts. I know, I made this mistake and regret it. It's too late now for this pen name to separate stuff, but I definitely will be going forward. I think in the old world of things, it probably mattered less, but with how digital recommendations and search algos work, I think it matters more now.


Yes. And remember that alsobots are a _symptom_ of the recommendation engine rather than the engine itself. They'll give you clues to what's going on in Amazon's bowels, but most of the action (emails and on-site recommendations) are completely hidden from us.

A second point: the Amazon reco engine is far, far, far from flawless. It's what we're working with, and it's far better than anywhere else, but its flaws are proven by the very advice (which is very good advice) that Annie's giving. For instance, if you put a book out there, and then you entice the wrong type of reader to buy it -- say you're a sci-fi writer who writes a contemporary romance, and then you market that book to your sci-fi readers who rarely buy romance -- Amazon will basically throw up its hands and say, "Sorry, no one is buying this, so we won't recommend it to anyone else either."

I hate the idea of doing different pen names for different but similar subgenres, but that's not because I'm rational. It's because I'm stubborn. Amazon actually provides very strong incentives to do just what Annie says.

The one area I'll disagree is on other stores -- since their reco systems are way less robust, you get more genuinely organic behavior. That means you're far more likely to get cross-sales between similar subgenres are you are on Amazon. In my opinion.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Here's an alternate thought. You don't necessarily need to use pen names. I won't, as long as I keep writing sci-fi/fantasy. But again, stubborn.

But it might still be wise to treat every subgenre you write in as if it were a different pen name. Otherwise, that loyal, core audience who'll buy everything you write might prevent Amazon from suggesting that anyone else buy it, too.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> You'd hope, but... for 99% of writers, this won't happen. It's hard to retain readers even from series to series in the same genre. If you have your heart set on being the next Neil Gaiman or something, probably a trad career is the way to go, in my opinion. (though even he built his huge core fan base with a series...)


I think it's fairly unlikely I'll be the next Neil Gaimen, I'd settle for a slightly more successful version of myself.

I will complete a SciFi/ space opera comedy trilogy by the end of the year, then planned a steampunk mystery series. Reading this, I'm wondering if that should be under a different name?...

I'm planning on releasing six books a year, if I split those between two or three pen names, the releases get very thin...


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I wouldn't put SF and Steampunk under the same name, but it's your career. Do whatever you want.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I wouldn't put SF and Steampunk under the same name, but it's your career. Do whatever you want.


OK, thanks for your thoughts Annie.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Another reason is that Amazon algos love a brand new name. Dunno exactly why that is (though smarter people than I have sort of explained it and have theories), but I've seen it happen too much to not believe right now.


Well, why are there 30/60/90 day cliffs? They want to promote new releases and give them a shot against books that already have established platforms. Seems to me that the same logic applies to authors as to books.

I hadn't actually caught onto this, so I'm glad you guys brought it up. That's brilliant. Makes the whole Liliana Nirvana shotgun release strategy seem even more powerful...why squander your first 30/60/90 days as an author by releasing one or two books and then going to work on the next ones when you could instead save up all of the algo juice for five titles at once? The strategy applies not just to new series, but to new pen names. Super interesting stuff.

There usually isn't a reason to hide the fact that you're the [wo]man behind the curtain on all of these pen names, right? I mean Annie could start a pristine new epic fantasy pen name for Amazon's purposes, call it A.B. Unicornfriend, and put all of those books up on her Annie Bellet website. Fans could still cross over if they wanted to, yet the algos can't tell the difference. Might be a good middle ground for folks who're both rational and stubborn optimistic.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> I hadn't actually caught onto this, so I'm glad you guys brought it up. That's brilliant. Makes the whole Liliana Nirvana shotgun release strategy seem even more powerful...why squander your first 30/60/90 days as an author by releasing one or two books and then going to work on the next ones when you could instead save up all of the algo juice for five titles at once? The strategy applies not just to new series, but to new pen names. Super interesting stuff.


Hmm, say more on this. How would a pen name with, say, 5 titles under that name released all at once benefit from the algos and the various cliffs? I'll be publishing in a couple months and right now I've been looking at dropping all 30-odd titles I have in the queue on one long weekend of hitting the publish button. If there's a benefit to multiple pen names with multiple titles per name, I could envision launching 3-4 pen names that weekend each with a pile of titles.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

noob said:


> what genre, if u don't mind me asking?


Young adult romances, and my second spin off series is older, more...what new adult is I guess? College aged love? But new adult is all over the place so it'd fall into simple contemporary romance as well.

Not everyone who likes the first series likes the second one, and some love it. My next experiment down the road is to write strictly another young adult series and see if more of the fans get into it. And then maybe a slightly more adult contemporary romance and see what happens.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Yes. And remember that alsobots are a _symptom_ of the recommendation engine rather than the engine itself. They'll give you clues to what's going on in Amazon's bowels, but most of the action (emails and on-site recommendations) are completely hidden from us.
> 
> A second point: the Amazon reco engine is far, far, far from flawless. It's what we're working with, and it's far better than anywhere else, but its flaws are proven by the very advice (which is very good advice) that Annie's giving. For instance, if you put a book out there, and then you entice the wrong type of reader to buy it -- say you're a sci-fi writer who writes a contemporary romance, and then you market that book to your sci-fi readers who rarely buy romance -- Amazon will basically throw up its hands and say, "Sorry, no one is buying this, so we won't recommend it to anyone else either."
> 
> ...


For a starting writer, or a first book under a new pen-name, anyone know how to get your book to show up in the "also viewed" on other books' pages? I'd think that's the first step necessary in order to get on the "also bought" list.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

thanks for answering CLStone. always curious to see what genres are sustaining long series.

as for algos and also boughts, really interesting stuff.

anyone know how to see what also-b's your book is showing up in?

i have bestsellers listed in the also boughts on MY book page, but when i go to the bestseller's page and flip through the also-b's  there…my book doesn't show up. probably not such a good sign...


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

*sits in the corner whispering 'adapt or die, adapt or die'*

Great advice as always, but, man, have I got some work to do. The market has changed so much since I started.


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## kjarting (Jul 20, 2015)

Thank you so much for the advice. Its really great to have it condensed and simplified into one area. There's such a sea of it, as a noob, its difficult to process it all. Thanks to your shapely buns for sharing!


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## AlexStiner (Nov 12, 2014)

Shei Darksbane said:


> So for a BRAND NEW AUTHOR who has never published before and is trying to start off their brand right... you still recommend 2.99 for first in series?
> Because everyone else here has said .99c and I'm curious what you base that strategy on?


I've heard from others (via podcast interviews, etc.) that strategically using KDP free days, coupled with targeted ad placement, is a good way to get people into the funnel while still keeping it priced.

Mind you, I've not tried this, as I only have one book now, so take it with a block of salt. But the plan (as it stands now) is to write the trilogy I'm working on now and publish all at once with this strategy.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Great advice. I've been wondering about ad words. Can you give us an example of an ad that seems to be working for you?


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

By the way, on our road trip to Colorado, we bought an audio book in a little store to listen to. It was awful. It was a woman's voice trying to sound like a man, a woman, and a little kid. We turned it off.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> Well, why are there 30/60/90 day cliffs? They want to promote new releases and give them a shot against books that already have established platforms. Seems to me that the same logic applies to authors as to books.
> 
> I hadn't actually caught onto this, so I'm glad you guys brought it up. That's brilliant. Makes the whole Liliana Nirvana shotgun release strategy seem even more powerful...why squander your first 30/60/90 days as an author by releasing one or two books and then going to work on the next ones when you could instead save up all of the algo juice for five titles at once? The strategy applies not just to new series, but to new pen names. Super interesting stuff.
> 
> There usually isn't a reason to hide the fact that you're the [wo]man behind the curtain on all of these pen names, right? I mean Annie could start a pristine new epic fantasy pen name for Amazon's purposes, call it A.B. Unicornfriend, and put all of those books up on her Annie Bellet website. Fans could still cross over if they wanted to, yet the algos can't tell the difference. Might be a good middle ground for folks who're both rational and stubborn optimistic.


Well... that would still mess up my alsoboughts and algos, because I'd be marketing epic fantasy to an urban fantasy fanbase. If I were less stubborn and lazy, I'd put out the epic fantasy under a pen name and get friends who are EF writers to help me launch, thus getting relevant alsoboughts.

Jim- 30 titles? Are these short stories? I'd still launch by genre with pen names, but if they are unconnected short stories, I'm not sure it is going to matter that much, sorry. Still, interesting experiment to put them all out together and see if that can springboard visibility.

Jena H- also viewed and also bought are a product of sales mostly. If you get people looking at your page, you'll get some also viewed. Once you hit a magical only known to Amazon threshold of sales, you get also boughts.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Jim- 30 titles? Are these short stories? I'd still launch by genre with pen names, but if they are unconnected short stories, I'm not sure it is going to matter that much, sorry. Still, interesting experiment to put them all out together and see if that can springboard visibility.


A few standalone shorts, mostly series though.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jim Johnson said:


> A few standalone shorts, mostly series though.


Ah, then yeah. Separate names for separate genres.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

There was a thread on multiple pen names for differing genres recently...

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=216932.0


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## funthebear (Sep 26, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> By the way, on our road trip to Colorado, we bought an audio book in a little store to listen to. It was awful. It was a woman's voice trying to sound like a man, a woman, and a little kid. We turned it off.


This is how nearly all audiobooks are. As someone who listens to 70 or so a year, full casts can be annoying and hard to follow. Most listeners prefer one narrator for all the voices, or male/female split. Ex Heroes is a great book that uses three narrators and does it well.

Maybe the narrator was just bad. What book was it?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Jim Johnson said:


> Hmm, say more on this. How would a pen name with, say, 5 titles under that name released all at once benefit from the algos and the various cliffs? I'll be publishing in a couple months and right now I've been looking at dropping all 30-odd titles I have in the queue on one long weekend of hitting the publish button. If there's a benefit to multiple pen names with multiple titles per name, I could envision launching 3-4 pen names that weekend each with a pile of titles.


What's great about dropping a bunch of related titles at once is that the algos favor all of them at once. During that window, it's easier to get them to appear in each title's alsobots, because it's easier to get them to appear in _any_ alsobots--that's the kind of favor that Amazon does for titles under the 30/60/90 day cliffs. Given absolutely equal sales and borrow activity, a 30 day title will displace a 90 day title. Promos are stronger, relationships between the titles are stronger, ranking boosts from readers plowing through the whole series at once are stronger.

The notion that Gojira,_ et al._, have raised is that what's true for new titles seems to be true for new pen names: you get free stuff for a while, and then it tapers off. If that's true, then obviously you'd benefit more from having more titles crammed into that short window. Anything you publish later on under that name isn't going to benefit.

The implied task, therefore, is to be fruitful and multiply. Any time that you put out a new series that wouldn't make sense as an alsobot in your old series, start a new name. And when you start a new name, launch several titles at once.

Of course, the downside to shotgunning a bunch of releases at once is that you're probably out of new releases for a few weeks or months to come. Hard to keep up the momentum. But I can think of examples off the top of my head of several authors who've ridden the tail of a multiple-title debut for months or years, and I'm sure you guys can think of even more. It _can_ work, and it's a formula you can reproduce if it works for you.

Final thought: carrying on old pen names has benefits as well. The biggest one is that you can continue to grow and capitalize on your mailing list and street team (either formally or informally; these are the people who religiously buy your new releases the first week). Expanding into new genres always means rebuilding that from scratch, especially if you're starting a new name--a whole new brand. I wouldn't try to build a business around only publishing books in groups of five, and always starting from scratch each time. Seems like a great way to transition into a new (sub)genre, however, or to launch a new author.



Annie B said:


> Well... that would still mess up my alsoboughts and algos, because I'd be marketing epic fantasy to an urban fantasy fanbase. If I were less stubborn and lazy, I'd put out the epic fantasy under a pen name and get friends who are EF writers to help me launch, thus getting relevant alsoboughts.


That's true to some extent, but we're still assuming like 8%, tops, in terms of crossover. Your alsobots will still probably be organic, instead of driven by traffic coming in from your unified website to your bifurcated Amazon pen names. Definitely true that EF friends would be more useful for creating your new readership. The unified website just allows you to convert _some_ of your existing readers, instead of abandoning them altogether. It's for the magical unicorn of a reader who loves your writing and not just your urban fantasy.

Also it'd save you from making a brand new website (and possibly buying a brand new domain) for the new pen name. That's worth something. Same applies to social media, though you'd still need to create a new subset of your mailing list and build the EF subscriptions from nothing.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> The unified website just allows you to convert _some_ of your existing readers, instead of abandoning them altogether. It's for the magical unicorn of a reader who loves your writing and not just your urban fantasy.
> 
> Also it'd save you from making a brand new website (and possibly buying a brand new domain) for the new pen name. That's worth something. Same applies to social media, though you'd still need to create a new subset of your mailing list and build the EF subscriptions from nothing.


How would you set this up, Dolphin, if it were up to you? Say I write fantasy, romance, and UF (which I do, just no published UF yet), and say I have separate names for all three (I will soon). Have one website with links/tabs/pages for each author? Assume an "open secret" style pen name, because that's what it would be in my case. What do you see that looking like, how do you see it functioning?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> What's great about dropping a bunch of related titles at once is that the algos favor all of them at once. During that window, it's easier to get them to appear in each title's alsobots, because it's easier to get them to appear in _any_ alsobots--that's the kind of favor that Amazon does for titles under the 30/60/90 day cliffs. Given absolutely equal sales and borrow activity, a 30 day title will displace a 90 day title. Promos are stronger, relationships between the titles are stronger, ranking boosts from readers plowing through the whole series at once are stronger.
> 
> The notion that Gojira,_ et al._, have raised is that what's true for new titles seems to be true for new pen names: you get free stuff for a while, and then it tapers off. If that's true, then obviously you'd benefit more from having more titles crammed into that short window. Anything you publish later on under that name isn't going to benefit.
> 
> ...


Websites are cheap. I own about 15 between my various pen names etc. Most aren't in use right now, but I snap up names I like just in case. It's pretty easy to set up a nice static page with Wordpress and not expensive to add existing pages to my hosting, so I wouldn't care too much about that. The mailing list would take five mins to set up too.

When I start writing things far away from my brand, I'll definitely be using more pen names and doing the basic work. It's worth it. I'm just too lazy to separate things now, and I'm writing at least sort of similar things I can connect up using a bigger branding umbrella (my catch-phrase is Science Fiction and Fantasy for Gamers and Nerds).


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## srf89 (Aug 18, 2014)

Glad to see someone not encouraging mass free-books and an actual marketing strategy! The advice in the first post was sound, though ultimately I think writers should write what they want. I tend to write fantasy and romance-ish stories, because I want to, not because they're popular. But I also like satire and humor, which don't sell as well. Outstanding books can always make it, even if they're in "unpopular" genres, with the right strategy and outreach.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

lilywhite said:


> How would you set this up, Dolphin, if it were up to you? Say I write fantasy, romance, and UF (which I do, just no published UF yet), and say I have separate names for all three (I will soon). Have one website with links/tabs/pages for each author? Assume an "open secret" style pen name, because that's what it would be in my case. What do you see that looking like, how do you see it functioning?


Well, if I can use Annie as an example, she's got her eponymous website set up with all of her series broken into their own pages. She'll know better than me how it's working out for her, but that's probably the right idea. Give every sub-brand its own distinct home, while providing enough breadcrumbs that curious fans can discover your other work.

One thing that you'd have to play with is that Annie has her home page set up to pitch the main UF series that's carrying most of the water for that pen name. You're necessarily going to dilute your brand if you're using one platform to pitch multiple things. Balancing that on the home page could be tricky.

Truthfully, I don't think most authors get that much mileage out of their websites. I wouldn't stress about it unless the web is your happy place, and you can add value that gets people coming back repeatedly (see, e.g. EAW's site). Mostly just make sure you've got affiliate links selling your books, and prominent calls to action for all of your mailing lists (you'll need at least one for each brand).



Annie B said:


> Websites are cheap. I own about 15 between my various pen names etc. Most aren't in use right now, but I snap up names I like just in case. It's pretty easy to set up a nice static page with Wordpress and not expensive to add existing pages to my hosting, so I wouldn't care too much about that. The mailing list would take five mins to set up too.


Man, they aren't terribly expensive, but they aren't free and that's a big pain to set all of that up and maintain it. It'd be an even bigger investment for folks who aren't as comfortable with the interwebs as you are (granted they should probably learn). Props for being so industrious, though.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Eh, I pay someone else to do my website now   Until April I just had a simple Wordpress blog. It worked fine for a while. Probably could have just stuck with that, but I have big plans and want a more professional web presence to go after bigger money and different markets.  No reason I couldn't have just kept the free Wordpress blog and upkept that though if I were doing things differently.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> Man, they aren't terribly expensive, but they aren't free and that's a big pain to set all of that up and maintain it. It'd be an even bigger investment for folks who aren't as comfortable with the interwebs as you are (granted they should probably learn). Props for being so industrious, though.


Back in the my old soap-opera-fandom days I ran easily a dozen websites and they all needed constant tending. I'm not too worried about that. I just want to ... _claim_ all of my names. I want to have them separate for fans but I also want those fans to be able to find the truth with very little work, in case they do want to crossover, and also just because I'm proud of everything I publish these days and want credit for it. Maybe that's a thing I have to work on getting over.

I want my cake and I also want to eat it, and sell it to other people so they can eat it too. Or something.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> Back in the my old soap-opera-fandom days I ran easily a dozen websites and they all needed constant tending. I'm not too worried about that. I just want to ... _claim_ all of my names. I want to have them separate for fans but I also want those fans to be able to find the truth with very little work, in case they do want to crossover, and also just because I'm proud of everything I publish these days and want credit for it. Maybe that's a thing I have to work on getting over.
> 
> I want my cake and I also want to eat it, and sell it to other people so they can eat it too. Or something.


i've heard suggestions to unify pen names under a single publisher. lets call the publisher "blue cat press."

blue cat press has its own website, with a drop-down menu linking to your various pen names and those names to your books.

this probably works best if the pen names write in the same ballpark genres.


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## Monie (Oct 4, 2014)

noob said:


> i've heard suggestions to unify pen names under a single publisher. lets call the publisher "blue cat press."
> 
> blue cat press has its own website, with a drop-down menu linking to your various pen names and those names to your books.
> 
> this probably works best if the pen names write in the same ballpark genres.


I think this is a great idea, one I might use when I start publishing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

noob said:


> i've heard suggestions to unify pen names under a single publisher. lets call the publisher "blue cat press."
> 
> blue cat press has its own website, with a drop-down menu linking to your various pen names and those names to your books.
> 
> this probably works best if the pen names write in the same ballpark genres.


You can. But how many times as a reader have you gone to a publisher website looking for a book? I don't think I ever have. I don't even notice who publishes most books these days now that I'm not researching which publishers to query.


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

Annie B said:


> You can. But how many times as a reader have you gone to a publisher website looking for a book? I don't think I ever have. I don't even notice who publishes most books these days now that I'm not researching which publishers to query.


yeah. it might depend on how you view your website within a marketing plan. is it a static page used just to post books and give you an address for mailchimp? then it might work to use a publisher as an umbrella for pen names. but if you blog on it, or are really active with each pen name, then i think you need a unique site for each name.

i'm right in the middle of deciding whether to build new pen names for several future series.

my current name writes pnr. i have a couple uf series on the go, as well as some romantic suspense/ and straight-up conspiracy thrillers. i want to be lazy and just use the one name with my (small) mailing list, but i really think i'll be better served long term with new names. trad pubbed genre authors they are very tightly branded. you pick up a steven king, a patterson, a kendra elliot--you can recognize their books almost instantly. imagine if grisham decided he'd like to write an epic fantasy instead of a legal thriller. readers would be all wtf? and you can bet his publisher would've *suggested* he use a pen name.

i think even switching POV's, tenses and writing styles within a branded pen name has risks. i know for a fact my pnr readers don't want multiple POVs, but thriller readers don't mind them. same with 3rd vs 1st, etc.

multiple branded pen names across different genres is necessarily more work than a single name when we have our publishing/marketing hats on. so i think this approach might benefit authors who are less active on social media and instead tend to rely on frequent release, promo sites and FB ads for exposure. IOW i can't imagine maintaining three or more active pen names on social media. ugh.

the other elephant in the room is if you have a name that bombs (i have) then it's much easier to cut losses and rebuild if you're only writing in one genre with that name.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Is there really a danger in having a "bomb" on your pen name though? I mean, if a book is universally loathed by an audience, and people are calling you a horrible monster on Twitter, sure. But as long as some people like it, does it really matter if sales are crappy?

My first series pretty much bombed. Meh sales, not very well received (of course, if no one reads your book, no one can hate it). I had a crisis the other day where I was like WHY DID I KEEP THIS PEN NAME, I AM SO SCREWED FOR MY NEW RELEASE NOW but a few different people talked me down.

Does it really hurt your pen name to have a book or a series that doesn't do as well as you'd like?


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## noob (Dec 11, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Is there really a danger in having a "bomb" on your pen name though? I mean, if a book is universally loathed by an audience, and people are calling you a horrible monster on Twitter, sure. But as long as some people like it, does it really matter if sales are crappy?
> 
> My first series pretty much bombed. Meh sales, not very well received (of course, if no one reads your book, no one can hate it). I had a crisis the other day where I was like WHY DID I KEEP THIS PEN NAME, I AM SO SCREWED FOR MY NEW RELEASE NOW but a few different people talked me down.
> 
> Does it really hurt your pen name to have a book or a series that doesn't do as well as you'd like?


well, maybe. like if you didn't meet genre expectations and have one stars and bad sales, lol. i can see that making a difference for future work/sales, esp with a new name. for me it was psychologically important to move on, and that included ditching the name (and pulling the books).

it's actually kind of a remarkable freedom to have.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> Is there really a danger in having a "bomb" on your pen name though? I mean, if a book is universally loathed by an audience, and people are calling you a horrible monster on Twitter, sure. But as long as some people like it, does it really matter if sales are crappy?
> 
> My first series pretty much bombed. Meh sales, not very well received (of course, if no one reads your book, no one can hate it). I had a crisis the other day where I was like WHY DID I KEEP THIS PEN NAME, I AM SO SCREWED FOR MY NEW RELEASE NOW but a few different people talked me down.
> 
> Does it really hurt your pen name to have a book or a series that doesn't do as well as you'd like?


My first two books didn't do well at all and still don't. It was my third book, a start of a long series, that I published and that took three more books in that series to be finished before it really started to take off.

The old books don't affect the new book. In fact, most people don't really notice them. Some have bought one. Sometimes they buy the other.

It doesn't hurt. Just keep writing books. The more you write, the more you'll have in your back log to read through when someone loves your books and wants to read all of them.


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## JanMoran (Jun 17, 2012)

Thank you! Going to take a look at that long back matter again... GUILTY!


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2015)

ゴジラ said:


> Also, I firmly believe no books suck and have zero interest in or opinion of the quality of your writing.


Not even the Eye of Argon? o.0


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Casper said:


> Thank you!


Have to confess I'm surprised to see you over here bowing down to Amanda, when she's one of those authors you bemoan in your "Decline of Civilization" post. See, this is what happens when you jump into a community with the sole purpose of causing trouble without figuring out who's who: you get your players mixed up.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2015)

ゴジラ said:


> *Paperbacks*
> 
> Don't bother unless you can make them yourself and you're bored.


THANK YOU. (You're one of my favorites at Kboards. So I'm glad to see you say this.)


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> Have to confess I'm surprised to see you over here bowing down to Amanda, when she's one of those authors you bemoan in your "Decline of Civilization" post. See, this is what happens when you jump into a community with the sole purpose of causing trouble without figuring out who's who: you get your players mixed up.


I love you, Tammi.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Jolie du Pre said:


> THANK YOU. (You're one of my favorites at Kboards. So I'm glad to see you say this.)


I love making my paperbacks! Do you not like it, Jolie?


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> I love making my paperbacks! Do you not like it, Jolie?


I've probably earned about $30 with my paperbacks. LOL! They just aren't worth my time.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Jolie du Pre said:


> I've probably earned about $30 with my paperbacks. LOL! They just aren't worth my time.


BUT IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY! WHAT HAPPENED TO LIT'RATURE!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> BUT IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY! WHAT HAPPENED TO LIT'RATURE!


Money-grubbing capitalist author-hacks shot and stabbed Literature and left it bleeding out in a back alleyway. Then Amazon's dog came over and piddled on the remains.

But fear not! Tradpub literary heroes, the caretakers of all that is Good and Right in Literature, such as Snooki and Kim Kardashian, are on the scene. We're safe.


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## TaylorWLaw (Sep 9, 2015)

OMG! THANK YOU SO MUCH for the amazing advice!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Bumping for those who haven't seen it.

And perhaps to summon Gojira back to give us this year's update.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> And perhaps to summon Gojira back to give us this year's update.


I'll just dangle some bait here to attract her ...


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Oh man, it's a bit early yet, but I always look forward to the annual State of the Death Lizard Sea Monster address.


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## Alvina (Oct 19, 2015)

Wee hour in the morning on this side of Earth, just comment to follow this thread!


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Becca, that was classic.


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## BillyHigginsPeery (Oct 24, 2015)

Yeah, I'm mostly a lurker, but just wanted to pop in and say that I'm 1000% ready for another one of these posts. They're always so informative!


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## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

I'm new, but I'm excited to see what this years advice is.


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## angela65 (Oct 8, 2014)

Also waiting with bated breath.


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## Scott.Tracey (Nov 30, 2014)

We're all so patient.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Not patient.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Not patient.


You fool! What have you done?!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Y'all need to be careful when you invoke Godzilla....


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## Summerstars (Mar 23, 2016)

that was incredible


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Summerstars said:


> that was incredible


It's very, very, old...as am I.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Y'all need to be careful when you invoke Godzilla....


So, what you're saying is ... wrong bait??


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> So, what you're saying is ... wrong bait??


 

You are a bad, bad person.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*looks sternly at Boyd*

No discussion of religion, here, Boyd!


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## LauraWestbrook (Jun 8, 2016)

Hi there!

Some of what you said I agree with and some not, but what I like most about what you said was this: "Write the most marketable book in your heart." While it's not everyone's thing, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Thanks for the post!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

So good to see you here!


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

ゴジラ said:


> Oh, and I'd also like to add one afterthought:
> 
> Part of business is knowing when to quit and try something different.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update! Love that quote. Threads like these are why I visit kboards in the first place.

I hear you on the depression front. All I can say is I hope it gets better. I know how draining it can be.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks so much for the update, but sorry to hear you've been down. I truly believe 'creatives' have this depressive-ish gene... without it, would be still be creative? Dunno... but it sucks. 

You're such an important Kboarder...you've blazed new trails for all of us and sometimes we forget that even the big names are just human too. Hoping that soon all that yuck is behind you and you're steadily up again, mentally and physically.  ((hugs))


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you!   And boo-hiss to the depression.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

L.L. AKers said:


> Thanks so much for the update, but sorry to hear you've been down. I truly believe 'creatives' have this depressive-ish gene... without it, would be still be creative? Dunno... but it sucks.


For me, the healthier I get and the better I get at managing my depression, the more creative and productive I'm able to be. I used to think depression was a natural price for being creative, but I'm 35 now and I don't believe that anymore. Depression is a disease and it can be treated. It isn't the boss of me and I am a more creative and better person without it.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

Boyd said:


> See, I invoke the name of Lord Cthulhu, and she shows up  My work here, is done...


Thank you, Boyd!

Welcome back, Gojira! You have been missed. Sorry to hear it's been a rough year, but sort of neat to know that that two year old who almost killed you is doing well...and still at it, I'm assuming, since that's a two-year-old's job. (Parents usually survive the Terrible Twos, but sometimes it's a near thing!) Thanks for this year's words of wisdom. Now....go play with the little ones. They won't be little for long...and take care of yourself. That has to come first.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Good to see you. You're still one of my heroes as I am constantly aspiring to also have the secret room   Oh and a husband who does all the child-care while I lock myself in a soundproofed space.  Hugs to both of you. I look forward to the new series.


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## MCwrites (May 26, 2016)

Thank you for the original advice and the update!


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## angela65 (Oct 8, 2014)

Thanks so much for the reliable update.

On a personal note, so sorry to hear that the past year has been rough. Being the sole breadwinner adds a lot of pressure to life, especially with a young family. I know how depression can suck the joy out of everything, but try to enjoy the little moments. Years later, they truly are what matter.


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## NadiaElyse (Jun 7, 2016)

Thank you for the update. I've compiled your tips and taped them to my desk. I also appreciate your honesty on the depression front and hope that you're feeling better soon.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks so much for the update, Gojira! Best of luck with the struggle bus. I can definitely commiserate there.

It's interesting that you scaled back on the pseudonyms. My sense is that that's been a bit of a trend. Seems like a year or two ago, everybody was more bullish on pen names, but nowadays fewer of us can be bothered. My sense is also that a lot of it has to do with smaller opportunity costs akin to the costs of going wide vs. putting everything in KDPS and having done with it. Those things add up.

One of the things that I think we should all pay special attention to is the constant effort that it takes to simply stay where you're at in this line of work. There's a long tail, but it's practically impossible to stop releasing and live off of your catalog indefinitely. Mark Cooper's another one who's made an interesting case study, since his production fell off but he's working the advertising angle instead. I find those stories really interesting. We tend to only hear from authors when they're so fired up that they can't help but share. It's worth thinking about how the job plays out when that giddiness and momentum have faded.


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## BillyHigginsPeery (Oct 24, 2015)

Thanks for the update! Plenty of good food for thought.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Stepping out from self-imposed lurk mode to say thanks for the update. It's great to hear how the "old" hands are doing. May your success continue.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Annie B said:


> For me, the healthier I get and the better I get at managing my depression, the more creative and productive I'm able to be. I used to think depression was a natural price for being creative, but I'm 35 now and I don't believe that anymore. Depression is a disease and it can be treated. It isn't the boss of me and I am a more creative and better person without it.


I get a lot more done when I manage my anxiety and depression, but I have found that certain treatments work well for this and others fail. Some SSRI meds killed my creativity and made me so generally foggy that I had trouble getting anything done. But talk therapy and lifestyle changes have helped a lot.

TLR if you have any mental illness or general mental issues try different treatments until you find one that works for you


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> I get a lot more done when I manage my anxiety and depression, but I have found that certain treatments work well for this and others fail. Some SSRI meds killed my creativity and made me so generally foggy that I had trouble getting anything done. But talk therapy and lifestyle changes have helped a lot.
> 
> TLR if you have any mental illness or general mental issues try different treatments until you find one that works for you


I had this problem. I was in a very bad way and took a medication I'd taken before I'd started writing (Citalopram). It KILLED THE BOOK. The book was GONE. After 3 days, I said, well, I can either be nuts or I can write the book, and I want to write the book.

Now I'm taking something else that puts a floor under me but doesn't kill the book. Much better!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> I had this problem. I was in a very bad way and took a medication I'd taken before I'd started writing (Citalopram). It KILLED THE BOOK. The book was GONE. After 3 days, I said, well, I can either be nuts or I can write the book, and I want to write the book.
> 
> Now I'm taking something else that puts a floor under me but doesn't kill the book. Much better!


Yeah, it took me five different meds before I found one that helped the depression and anxiety without making me feel like I was in a fog or causing crazy weight gain etc. But dang, the difference in how I feel and how I write and how productive I am when I'm not drowning under the dark water of depression is amazing. It's like a whole new world of energy and possibility.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Yeah, it took me five different meds before I found one that helped the depression and anxiety without making me feel like I was in a fog or causing crazy weight gain etc. But dang, the difference in how I feel and how I write and how productive I am when I'm not drowning under the dark water of depression is amazing. It's like a whole new world of energy and possibility.


I'm not there yet. Just not nuts, but I'll take "not nuts."


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## Braccialetto (Jun 15, 2016)

Love this thread!


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

Boyd said:


> I offer foot rubs and dark chocolate to those who would instill their wisdom upon me. 'Jes Sayin'


I'm in desperate need of a foot rub. 
Wisdom: be nice to your mum and always tip the pizza guy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

spellscribe said:


> I'm in desperate need of a foot rub.
> Wisdom: be nice to your mum and always tip the pizza guy.


LOL -


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## Christian Martin (Dec 1, 2014)

Hey, Thanks ゴジラ for the tips...newb here, all very interesting info.


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## romance2die4 (Nov 11, 2016)

I am a newbie so I hope I am posting in the correct thread. I have a question about adding bonus material to the back of my ebook. I have read that Amazon does not allow this. Is this true? My plan is the following... In the backmatter I will offer bonus material (first four chapters from another character's perspective). Readers must hit a link that will direct them to a hidden page on my website where there will be a link to instafreebie (they distribute the bonus material in the format that readers request). Readers will give their name and email address which I will put on my mailing list, and they will get the bonus material.
Is this kosher?
If so, do you think I should use a double opt in on being added to the mailing list. This would give them an additional message that they will be put on my mailing list for future releases.
What do you think? and has anyone done anything similar?


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

romance2die4 said:


> I am a newbie so I hope I am posting in the correct thread. I have a question about adding bonus material to the back of my ebook. I have read that Amazon does not allow this. Is this true? My plan is the following... In the backmatter I will offer bonus material (first four chapters from another character's perspective). Readers must hit a link that will direct them to a hidden page on my website where there will be a link to instafreebie (they distribute the bonus material in the format that readers request). Readers will give their name and email address which I will put on my mailing list, and they will get the bonus material.
> Is this kosher?
> If so, do you think I should use a double opt in on being added to the mailing list. This would give them an additional message that they will be put on my mailing list for future releases.
> What do you think? and has anyone done anything similar?


Amazon has no problem with authors putting backmatter at the end of their books. Many authors do it--acknowledgements, author notes, lists of other available books, etc. I don't include teaser chapters for other books, but I know others do. So I guess the real question is about links to non-Amazon sites. As far as I know, linking to your website is perfectly fine; I believe Amazon's criteria for whether something is allowable is whether it's related to your book, or the overall reading experience for the reader.

But please don't take my word as gospel; I'm sure others will chime in with more informed responses.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

romance2die4 said:


> I am a newbie so I hope I am posting in the correct thread. I have a question about adding bonus material to the back of my ebook. I have read that Amazon does not allow this. Is this true? My plan is the following... In the backmatter I will offer bonus material (first four chapters from another character's perspective). Readers must hit a link that will direct them to a hidden page on my website where there will be a link to instafreebie (they distribute the bonus material in the format that readers request). Readers will give their name and email address which I will put on my mailing list, and they will get the bonus material.
> Is this kosher?
> If so, do you think I should use a double opt in on being added to the mailing list. This would give them an additional message that they will be put on my mailing list for future releases.
> What do you think? and has anyone done anything similar?


I started a discussion on this here http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,243675.msg3397077.html#msg3397077. *Is anyone using this method to get mailing list subscribers? Bonus chapters....*

If an author added a few extra chapters as a sign up bonus, I would only sign up if the book was really engaging.


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## romance2die4 (Nov 11, 2016)

So if I put a link to my bonus material in the back of my book, can it be an instafreebie link or does it have to be a link to my website? The instafreebie giveaway that I have lined up is a "reward for fans."


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## dorihoxa (Feb 12, 2016)

romance2die4 said:


> So if I put a link to my bonus material in the back of my book, can it be an instafreebie link or does it have to be a link to my website? The instafreebie giveaway that I have lined up is a "reward for fans."


All the links on the back of my books are from Instafreebie so you should be good  Good luck!


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