# 99 cents - The Misogynist



## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

The Mysogynist









It's getting some good reviews, I have since cleaned up the spelling mistakes. I typed this in notepad 

You will like the story, no matter how you feel about me.

Here is a short sample,
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My father likes to tell the story of my birth or to be precise the part right after I was born. He tells it as a joke, he tells everything as a joke. I don't think it's funny. "His head Joseph, his head", she screamed, "it's deformed", pushing me back into the arms of nurses. In my defense I had just been pushed through a small woman's birthing canal.

I do have a large round head, a head that belongs on a doll or maybe a cartoon character. None of this is relevant though, my mother's definition of deformed is three out of four parts ugly. And as much as I might hee and haa, I am ugly.

Still the story is hearsay, it's second hand, I was there but not there, and now it's just my father's cruel joke. This idea can be true about all memories. Even when a memory is yours you aren't the same person who experienced it. So in the end all memories are just second hand stories.

I am not sure what she hoped to happen, what she thought not holding me would accomplish. At least it never fails to bring a smile to my father's face.


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## meljackson (Nov 19, 2008)

Hi, is this a short story? Just wondering because the file size is smaller than I'm used to seeing. I downloaded the sample.

Melissa


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## angelad (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks, I'm going to download this.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Some posts in the above discussion have been edited or deleted. We recognize that some members may arrive here with a history or even a "reputation" from other boards. But we ask that all members extend courtesy to each other. 

Members are welcome here as long they follow the Forum rules. If our forum rules are being violated, simply report the incident to a moderator. Thank you!


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

This is a short story. 

Ok, I have cleaned up the spelling. Still working on what some deem as run on sentences (must be my German influence), hope to have the new cleaned up version posted later.


Again I appreciate the compliments.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

It's more of a novelette than a short story. But as you can see from the reviews it's good.


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Just as a reference for readers, a 'novelette' at the very low end is about 7,500 words.

If I'm not mistaken this is on the border of both short story and novelette given that an average paperback page has 250 words per page, and this clocks in at about 25 pages. Am I wrong on the approximate page count?


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

Morpheus have you read my work?


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## cheerio (May 16, 2009)

emilydowns said:


> The Mysogynist
> 
> 
> 
> ...


might check it out


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

emilydowns said:


> Morpheus have you read my work?


I haven't...but the post I made has nothing to do with quality.

It has to do with the definition of novelette vs short story.

The accepted definition of a novelette is no less than 7,500 words and no more than 17,500

That's why I said you're on the borderline, going by the file size listed on Amazon. I'm assuming it's between 6,000 to 8,000 words in length.

Also I don't think I'm going to purchase this one, or the other one you have re-listed a few times (which I guess is confusing me since it now says someone else is the author?) since I'm not really a fan of extremely short form fiction.

The shortest I tend to like is at least 100 pages...otherwise I just can't get a true feel for the characters and events.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

you read fast, I read it for the first time last night after you mentioned the spelling/grammar. Sad, huh. I wrote it, added html then set it aside. All that being said, the label of short story is fine. I think the quality of the story is worth 99 cents.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Wait, wait, hold up...you mean to say you never read it before putting it on Kindle?


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

I wrote it of course I read it as I wrote, but I didn't read start to finish. I didn't proof it. 
I am kind of glad I just read it now, I got to enjoy the story. I got to discover things I had forgotten, like, "the laundry was dancing all over the lawn."


It's the little things.


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

Okay...consider editing before selling. Lack of editing will only hurt you in the end. For ANYTHING I write and I mean for others to see, I edit at least three times. If it's something I want to sell/publish, I'll have someone else edit it as well.

Do you mind sending me a copy for the sake of another editor?

Dawson


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## LauraB (Nov 23, 2008)

emily wrote:* I wrote it of course I read it as I wrote, but I didn't read start to finish. I didn't proof it. 
I am kind of glad I just read it now, I got to enjoy the story. I got to discover things I had forgotten, like, "the laundry was dancing all over the lawn." *

 This is why I rarely buy books published through Amazon's digital platform. Anyone can publish for Kindle and they do. I haven't even sampled your book, and this isn't anything against your writing, maybe your one of the few who write perfection the first time. But an author that publishes a book they didn't even proof  ? Sorry, but it is one of the few things I dislike about kindle over my Sony just in general. Sony books are formatted properly for Sony and rarely have typos, it is obvious when you buy a book from the Sony store, even if you don't like the book, that it has at least been proof read  . Sorry, this is just a soap box issue for me, and IMO it feeds a reputation of Amazon's digital publishing format in a negative way that probably effects writers of quality books on that platform. I check on how a kindle book is published, who published it, and I will rarely even sample ones anymore from this format because I have found it frustrating. Sorry, jumping off soapbox now, and kicking it to the left (in case anyone is looking for it  ). As I said, I haven't even sampled your work. So, this is really just my response to your post. Hope it isn't inappropriate. Mods feel free to edit, or email me if I've come off in a way that is inappropriate. I'm not trying to start a _fight or hurt feeling._


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## Dawsburg (May 31, 2009)

In my case I proofed it because I first published in physical format (which still sells considerably well--I just need to host more events...) and in this case you're almost obliged to edit it over and over.

Just my two cents worth.

Dawson


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

So when an author post changes to the story, it's not updated on your kindle?

Hey plenty of people have posted how great the story is, even Red stated the work is good.
It's 99 cents, it's a good deal considering you are probably reading a spec for a great movie.

I read it last night, I love my writing, sorry I know, it's just I thought I couldn't write for so long.

Read the reviews, none, I repeat, none are reviews by me. 
It's cleaned up now, but read the reviews from people who read it before it was cleaned up. 
They loved it. Look at Red's review, and imagine a clean copy with no spelling or typos.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1XMGP8UQJYRYD/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm


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## LauraB (Nov 23, 2008)

@the other red: I just clicked on the not read threads yet, and didn't notice which section of the forum it is. And please don't change the wording of my post to something more extreme. * I didn't say I won't read them, I said I rarely read them or sample them*. The few I do are ones I find here, not on Amazon. Sorry if I wasn't clear. That is why I included a thing for mods to edit if needed. I get in a hurry and come off different them I mean to sometimes and I'm going to be out of the loop and may not be able to check PMs.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Personally, I won't read a blog posting with multiple errors, much less a book (novelette, short story, whatever). To publish a story for profit without re-reading it first.... well....

This is one of several reasons why I never, ever buy a Kindle book without sampling first.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

emilydowns said:


> you read fast, I read it for the first time last night after you mentioned the spelling/grammar. Sad, huh. I wrote it, added html then set it aside. All that being said, the label of short story is fine. I think the quality of the story is worth 99 cents.


I'm sorry, but how can you not proofread your own work before submitting it to be sold? Proofreading is just as, if not more, important than any other step in the writing process.

I don't even allow my children to hand me a writing assignment they haven't proofread.

I'm stunned to hear this. Sorry, I won't by buying this book.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

As an author who represents the opposite end of the editing curve (the obsessive-compulsive editor, who can be just as bad), I am mystified.  One person's dream is another's nightmare--one of my worst would be to publish a book that had NOT been proofread (many, many times!). The trouble with errors is that they are distracting in the extreme (at least to me).  They set a bad example for young readers who should be learning to write well, and they leave the general impression that the author either doesn't know or doesn't care. 

I don't know Emily, but I suspect that she cares about her work--she has her own strategy, and she is learning that errors do not enhance it. Readers can always download a sample, thereby avoiding what doesn't suit them. Emily has already gone back to fix what was broken. I've met a few poor unfortunates who actually believed their errors were part of their 'style,' and that no word of their dulcet and compelling prose should be meddled with! They were beyond all hope.

It is extremely difficult to find and slay EVERY typo (even the ones that are actually typos, and not grammatical errors.  I hate it when the two are tarred with the same brush).  I have come out with two new editions in an attempt to polish, polish, polish....I am now charged with the task of forcing myself to stop messing with them! Eventually, if you over-edit, you'll lose some of your 'voice.' 

Perhaps we should remember that there is a learning curve, and every author (especially an indie) must survive it. 

--'Archer'


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## hackeynut (Dec 16, 2008)

Wow making friends everywhere!


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

We here at KB pride ourselves on being polite and understanding.
Our mods do a fabulous job of limiting the scandalous, rude and demeaning posts.
In several of our author threads we have discussions of the writing experience and mutual encouragement that goes on.
And I have been interested to note that there are writers who "plan" the entire writing of their books before beginning and there are those whose characters "talk" to them and tell them the story.  And these authors post civilly to each other and seem to enjoy each others company and comments.
Emily has brought herself here with a very different approach.  If she intends to scandalize us she probably has succeeded.  If she expects to sell a bunch of her work to the unsuspecting yokels here, she would probably be misguided.  Because discussion of new authors and their works is a large part of what KB is all about and we care very much about other members opinions.  We like to think we are discriminating.  And samplers.

Personally I don't like work with mispelling and bad grammar.  But I have talked to readers who don't mind, if the work appeals to them.  So maybe there is an audience for her work here.  And maybe not.

We tend to encourage and defend authors whose work and demeanor we like and cherish. Like Jeff and Gertie and Thumper and Carolyn K., and Mike and Boyd and many many others.
We like to provide advice for future improvement.
And to not do so for those whose work we find inferior and insulting.

Just sayin.....


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> We here at KB pride ourselves on being polite and understanding.
> Our mods do a fabulous job of limiting the scandalous, rude and demeaning posts.
> In several of our author threads we have discussions of the writing experience and mutual encouragement that goes on.
> And I have been interested to note that there are writers who "plan" the entire writing of their books before beginning and there are those whose characters "talk" to them and tell them the story. And these authors post civilly to each other and seem to enjoy each others company and comments.
> ...


Geoff, thank you for making my day, and that of many others I'm sure, with your kind comments.

As a writer, I work very hard to make my work as perfect as I can, because it will far outlast my time here. My audience deserves the best. I owe them everything. It's an incomparable thrill to be read with care, and praised for my efforts.

I've read far too many excellent books by brilliant authors ever to delude myself about my place in the world, but even the smallest marks add to the big picture. Thank you for recognizing that.

Kindleboards is the best forum I've ever visited, thanks to a coming-together of good people, judicious moderation and a passionate love for books. I'm delighted to be part of it.



CK


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

I wish everyone who thinks I am trying to trick them into buying a bad story, reads the sample.
The sample, will prove, my work speaks for itself. Read the reviews.

BTW

THE STORY HAS BEEN RUN THROUGH A SPELL CHECK AND I PROOF READ IT TO REMOVE THE TYPOS.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001V5J4VO/ref=cm_rdp_product_img

My intention is for people to discover my work.

Good Luck.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Geoff: 
Well said. Some day, I hope to make that 'list.' 
Hello to CK, O Friend o' Mine. 

Emily--no one can fault you for that. I wish you the best of luck.  The learning curve is a harsh mistress!

'Archer'


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

"I didn't realize. I've never been good at that stuff, so I'm having a friend/teacher/whoever help me correct it."

I have never been good at grammar, my grandmother used to rip up my typo filled homework assignments. I am a very lazy person. That being sad, the story is great. And now, once I realized how bad the typos were I corrected them.

For all of you doubting my talent, I would check out the sample.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Misogynist/dp/B001V5J4VO/ref=pd_sim_kinc_1


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Emily,

I don't know how old you are, I am assuming that you are young. But no one here is trying to run you down and if someone is then it's their shame. What you have to do is to learn from your mistake and move on from there. It doesn't help your cause to try to prove yourself by saying 'look at my reviews!' or 'read a sample of my work!' What will help you is to make certain that you never make the mistake of publishing your books without proofreading it or/and having it looked over by someone (preferably a professional). It doesn't matter whether your book is 99 cents or 99 dollars. Before the advent of this wonderful technology that allows us new authors to have a voice, an author who chose to do what you did would never have seen her work go public. You owe it to yourself and your readers to produce the best product possible and use whatever means you have available to you to ensure the quality of your work.

I wouldn't have joined this discussion except to say that I am aware of the problems you had on Amazon and was hoping that you wouldn't have a repeat performance here. As someone who knows personally how harsh the public can be towards new authors (trust me, I empathize with your situation on zon'), I can only wish you the best of luck in your career and hope that you take the sage advice given to you here on this thread to heart. The sky is the limit for an author who is willing to listen and learn from the people they intend to share thier works with.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

If I'd known about the typos before purchasing Emily's story, I might have skipped it -- and I would have been the poorer for having done so. After reading it, it's my opinion that wading through some glitches is a small price to pay for discovering a distinctive new talent. Emily has a gift. I will happily read anything she writes.

When I proof my own work, I often see what I intended to be there, not what I actually typed. I've had books published by major publishing houses that went through my editing process, then the editor had a go at it, then the line editor went through the whole book and it STILL had mistakes in its final form. I cringe when I'm finally able to spot them after it's too late to do a thing about them. All those who bought those books have permanent proof of my carelessness, just as the early buyers of Emily's story have proof of hers. It's not the end of the world. The important thing here is the work, the story, the talent.

Emily, when reading The Misognist, I paused and admired the laundry dancing on the yard. That was just one of many places where I took note of your writing. I'll admit to something that I should probably keep quiet about. As I read, I began to doubt that you had really written the story. I pulled out sections and ran them through Google to see if I could find them in someone else's work. That's how suspicious I was, and how surprised I was to find that you had written such an engaging story considering all the drama that surrounded its unveiling. I'm sorry I doubted you.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

lkcampbell said:


> I don't mean to be harsh, Patricia, but the cold, cruel world of publishing isn't going to show her the kindness that you have if she isn't willing to admit that she needs to work on things like grammar and spelling. As a self-published author, she already has a stigma slapped onto her work. She won't get by with a tough agent or editor by simply saying, "But my story is great. Overlook the rest."


So absolutely true! In this context I can't help but be reminded of the first Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award contest. Five thousand applicants were winnowed to one thousand in the first round. Before the culling, the ABNA forum teemed with self-proclaimed 'outlaw' writers who defiantly insisted that their work transcended the need for anything so trivial as grammar, spelling, coherence, etc. _Not one_ of them made it to the next level.

Simply a cautionary anecdote. (For the record, I made the next round. )

CK


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

When I was in college. . . back in the pre-historic period before spell checkers or even word processors.. . I had a prof who required papers turned in typed.  No biggie:  most did and I had a typewriter.  I'd usually type up a paper at least 3 times, with proofing and typing in between.  Despite all that, and the use of 'erasable' typing paper or a Selectric type machine with correcting ribbon, there were always still errors in the final paper turned in.  If those errors weren't corrected with pen and ink (I used a fine point black pen) one WOULD be marked down, no matter how good the paper was otherwise.  One student once got her paper back and had only gotten a C. . . .the professor had put a note that the ideas deserved an A but that the presentation was at best a D. . . .due to typos not corrected.

I guess she sort of 'ruined me'    Heck. . . .I tend to proof read even things like this now!     Though I'm less anal about this sort of casual writing than more formal stuff. . . .


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Carolyn Kephart said:


> So absolutely true! In this context I can't help but be reminded of the first Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award contest. Five thousand applicants were winnowed to one thousand in the first round. Before the culling, the ABNA forum teemed with self-proclaimed 'outlaw' writers who defiantly insisted that their work transcended the need for anything so trivial as grammar, spelling, coherence, etc. _Not one_ of them made it to the next level.
> 
> Simply a cautionary anecdote. (For the record, I made the next round. )
> 
> CK


Carolyn, this reminds me of the quilt world. There are quilters who can't be bothered to learn the technical sides of their craft, justify it by calling what they do "art" not quilting, and then complain that they can't get their work into quilt shows. And also submit quilts full of loose threads and covered with cat hair. They may indeed have a vision that would be inspiring if one could see it past the crud or in the badly focused photo submitted for the jurying process. You only get one chance to make a first impression....

And congrats on making it through the first round, I know others who didn't! (And it wasn't their grammar, LOL!)

I think there's a lot of gold to be mined in this discussion; good information for new, old and would-be authors.

Betsy


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

From a readers perspective, poor grammar and spelling are the kiss of death. 

I would not have an architect design my house who can't draw blueprints.

I would not have a lawyer represent me who could not speak coherently in court.

I would not have a teacher instruct my child who could not read.

Why oh why would I buy a book from an author can not write?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Do architects still draw blueprints? 

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Emily--

what made you want to write this book?  I'd love to hear more about you and why you write!

Betsy


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Do architects still draw blueprints?
> 
> Betsy


I'm sure they use AutoCad. 

But garbage in garbage out.

And I'm not trying to harp on Emily, I just trying emphasize to her how important it is for an author to use proper spelling and grammar. Rightly or wrongly they will be judged by it despite the underlying quality of the storyline.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Forster, there's a big difference between a writer who can't write and one who misses typos. One is creating, the other is typing. Emily can write.


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Forster, there's a big difference between a writer who can't write and one who misses typos. One is creating, the other is typing. Emily can write.


She can create, but she will also be judged by the editing. Typo's do happen and some can certainly be forgiven. The problem is when they become so pervasive as to distract from the story.

Edit to add:

And seriously as a _reader_ would you want to invest your time an money in a book that has numerous typos and grammatical problems?


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> When I was in college. . . back in the pre-historic period before spell checkers or even word processors.. . I had a prof who required papers turned in typed. No biggie: most did and I had a typewriter. I'd usually type up a paper at least 3 times, with proofing and typing in between. Despite all that, and the use of 'erasable' typing paper or a Selectric type machine with correcting ribbon, there were always still errors in the final paper turned in. If those errors weren't corrected with pen and ink (I used a fine point black pen) one WOULD be marked down, no matter how good the paper was otherwise. One student once got her paper back and had only gotten a C. . . .the professor had put a note that the ideas deserved an A but that the presentation was at best a D. . . .due to typos not corrected.
> 
> I guess she sort of 'ruined me'  Heck. . . .I tend to proof read even things like this now!  Though I'm less anal about this sort of casual writing than more formal stuff. . . .


Ann, you hit the nail right on the head. I don't think the problem lies simply with DTP or self publishing. It's a generational and cultural issue. New technology is enabling people of all careers to choose the easy way. Before computers, entertainers had to be cross-trained to act, dance, sing, and play instruments in many styles. Now there are self-acclaimed musicians who wouldn't dare touch an instrument or thinking about learning how to read sheet music. They think they can make a career for themselves by using the latest sound engineering computer program to cut and paste their music. Don't even dare suggest that they should get a vocal coach!

Just because someone can publish a book without it being edited doesn't mean they should. Writers, like every other artisan, should be held to the highest standard. At the same time, authors also need to allow themselves time to grow before they start hawking their wares. It doesn't hurt to find a mentor or some other professional to guide them along the process. No matter how good a writer is, he/she can always benefit from a second pair of eyes. Even though it darn near bankrupted me, each of my novels were passed through the hands of multiple editors before publication. Trust me, it saved me a lot of grief.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Carolyn, this reminds me of the quilt world. There are quilters who can't be bothered to learn the technical sides of their craft, justify it by calling what they do "art" not quilting, and then complain that they can't get their work into quilt shows. And also submit quilts full of loose threads and covered with cat hair. They may indeed have a vision that would be inspiring if one could see it past the crud or in the badly focused photo submitted for the jurying process. You only get one chance to make a first impression....
> 
> And congrats on making it through the first round, I know others who didn't! (And it wasn't their grammar, LOL!)
> 
> ...


Cat-haired quilts?  What could they have been thinking? Seriously, I'm amazed.

Thank you for the congratulations.  I didn't make it to the finals, but neither did many other writers who were much superior to some that did. What mattered was that ABNA taught me more about writing than anything else I've ever experienced. The writer forums were instructive to say the least, and the 23 reviews my entry received (most of them five stars, to my happiness) made it very clear what readers want in a story--to be hooked from the jump, something I wasn't doing with my book's slow opening. I think every writer should enter that competition at least once, not in any hopes of winning (stick to the lottery for better odds), but just to get an idea of what they're up against.

You've changed your avatar quilt!

CK


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

RedAdept said:


> Yes, I know that some authors write outside of grammar rules for different reasons, i.e. to build suspense.


O.k. a little off topic but this reminded me of a 75 year old comic on America's Got Talent last night. She told of the Southern grandmother who'd scrimped and saved to send her granddaughter to an excellent university and the conversation they had when she came home on break.

Granddaughter: Granny, I have to tell you that I ain't a virgin no more.

Grandmother: (in shock) You mean I spent all that money to send you to college and you still say "ain't"!

(rimshot)

(maybe you had to be there. . .she really was very funny)


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

LKCampbell, I agree that few would give a writer a chance if she hasn't cleaned up her manuscript, but there are exceptions. Patricia Cornwell has had a spectacular career, but it took an agent who believed in her to clean up her writing and get it published. Maxwell Perkins helped several writers get their work in shape. Such stories are out there if you search for them.

Forster, I didn't experience what you did. I had no trouble understanding what Emily was saying the first time through. Had I encountered the same problems you did, I'm sure that would have impacted my enjoyment of what I was reading.


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## LauraB (Nov 23, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> O.k. a little off topic but this reminded me of a 75 year old comic on America's Got Talent last night. She told of the Southern grandmother who'd scrimped and saved to send her granddaughter to an excellent university and the conversation they had when she came home on break.
> 
> Granddaughter: Granny, I have to tell you that I ain't a virgin no more.
> 
> ...


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> LKCampbell, I agree that few would give a writer a chance if she hasn't cleaned up her manuscript, but there are exceptions. Patricia Cornwell has had a spectacular career, but it took an agent who believed in her to clean up her writing and get it published. Maxwell Perkins helped several writers get their work in shape. Such stories are out there if you search for them.
> 
> Forster, I didn't experience what you did. I had no trouble understanding what Emily was saying the first time through. Had I encountered the same problems you did, I'm sure that would have impacted my enjoyment of what I was reading.


There is a saying that "Leaders aren't born. They are created." I think the same goes for authors. No one is born knowing how to write. It takes years of practice for an author to hone his/her skill. No matter how talented, every author needs time to grow. DTP allows authors to publish without being screened for content in the traditional fashion. This means it's up to the author to bear the responsibility of making sure that their books are up to snuff before hitting the "publish" button. An author has one of 2 choices to make: you either wait until your work is good enough to showcase to the public or/and make sure you get others to read your work before you publish.

I don't think anyone here is perfect, me least of all. But I think a lot of what happened today would have been avoided if authors make it a habit to have brutally honest readers (preferably professionals) read their works before uploading them for sale. To me, that is the moral of today's story.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

emilydowns said:


> For all of you doubting my talent, I would check out the sample.


Not to tell you how to do it or anything, but consider sampling my story for comparison's sake.

Regenerated, my newly-Kindled short story, now $0.80, or free at my sig link below: 

Modestly (although heck yeah, it'd make a great movie!),

CK


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

CK--Is that a chameleon's tail on the cover?
(Oh, for a Kindle!)

HI, KEVIS!!!!


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

archer said:


> HI, KEVIS!!!!


Archer,

Greetings from Arva! Welcome back!!!


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

archer said:


> CK--Is that a chameleon's tail on the cover?


It is indeed. The original image had been very bright green, but I altered the color to fit the story's mood, and got the perfect tail for the tale. 

Thank you for noticing, since change and its consequences are key to the story.

CK


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Kevis--I'd reply in 'filk,' but not sure how my new friends here on KB would take it. 

Best to be staid and stodgy for now!


CK: A perfect 'tail' indeed!


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Kevis, you aren't perfect? You had me fooled.

I think people can be taught how to write in a technical sense, but not how to be a writer. It's a gift someone either has or doesn't have. What one does with that gift is another matter.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Kevis, you aren't perfect? You had me fooled.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

I am so tired, I babysat my nephew today, he is a 4 year old nightmare. So excuse me for being short, and to people I annoy, just by how I respond to you, take note, I don't mean to insult anyone. I rarely if ever insult anyone, not to say I haven't in the past or the present, I insulted some guy on a forum the other day, one time, seriously one comment. I am not going to get into of all that but I felt bad. No matter how much you feel justified in the moment, you should never snap.

<notice the run on sentences, I was a German in a former life>

I don't play well with others, I rub people the wrong way even when I am being what I think is normal. For a long time, I didn't even regret my actions, I was an offensive bully, some might say "still am", I think I have calmed down a bit. Right now a voice is telling me I can't let all of my defiance be silenced.

I am not trying to get your money, I want you to read my work. I need you more than you need me. That in a nutshell, is why I am trying to change.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

From the sample it might be "more than aight." The errors should be fixed though, because they show a lack of professionalism and respect for the reader.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2009)

What Michelle said. I make my living as a writer and I am absolutely appalled that you put your work on sale without bothering to edit and proofread it. It makes you look incredibly unprofessional and lazy. I don't care how good a writer you think you are or others think you are. Proofreading and editing are MUSTS. People are forking over money for your work and should not get error ridden copy in return. Errors jar readers right out of your story. They won't overlook the mistakes, they'll simply stop reading your story instead.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, I think it's been made clear to Emily that having a book proofed before selling is a must.  I also know that there are threads here where authors have discussed the cost of a professional editor and what they do to get their book edited.  Instead of just adding more of the same, perhaps some of our great author-members could share some of their strategies to get their books proofed on the cheap? (And I know some have already done this.)

Emily, this is a great community of authors who love to hang out in the Book Bazaar and talk about the craft of writing and also the business of writing.  I highly recommend you read some of the threads!

We also have one member who is offering to edit the first chapter or so of your book for free--you might want to take her up on that Emily, just to see what you think of her recommendations.

You might also consider posting here about your inspiration for the book or other information.

I'll add links to some of the threads I've mentioned.

Betsy


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2009)

Writers need to proofread their work THEMSELVES first. Paying someone else to do so is not always necessary, and as lkcampbell asid there are quite a few writing and critique groups on the web that can also be very helpful.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

NYCKindleFan said:


> Writers need to proofread their work THEMSELVES first....


Yes, NYC, I think we've established that fairly well. Let's move on and advance the conversation.

LK, that's interesting! Thanks for sharing it!

Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Emily and other new authors on KindleBoards--

Be sure to read thiis thread for lots of good information:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,8329.0.html

Betsy


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

emilydowns said:


> I am not trying to get your money, I want you to read my work. I need you more than you need me.


Emily, that sums up where many of us are. If recent events have brought you to that realization, it may have been worth all the fuss.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Betsy:

C.S. Marks here. I just had to interject--the 'Winter Chair' quilt--WOW!
(And...that's some hat!)
I'm an illustrator as well as a writer, hence I had to comment on the 'fabric art.'

As far as proofreading goes, one other source for 'on the cheap' is your local University. Lucky me, I'm a Professor (of equine science, which doesn't help my proofreading skills, though I do know how to spell 'fistulous withers'). It's easy to connect with graduate students whose grammatical prowess can be exploited for very little. Notice that I'm speaking of proofreading (mechanics only) and not editing.

Before I put my first novel into print, it underwent extensive review by many 'test readers'--from English professors to ten-year-olds. Their task was to comment on the story--did it flow well?  Did they enjoy it? Was there anything confusing or illogical? (I expected a little more from the English profs.) I had feedback from over twenty testers, and had revised numerous times before I went to press. This valuable input cost--nothing.

Best of luck, Emily!


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Hmm...I think I'm going to use Fistulous Withers as my pen name.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

archer said:


> Before I put my first novel into print, it underwent extensive review by many 'test readers'--from English professors to ten-year-olds. Their task was to comment on the story--did it flow well? Did they enjoy it? Was there anything confusing or illogical? (I expected a little more from the English profs.) I had feedback from over twenty testers, and had revised numerous times before I went to press. This valuable input cost--nothing.


And yet, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the 10 year olds provided some Very Astute Observations! (And probably too guileless to hold anything back for fear of making you feel bad.  )


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Hmm...I think I'm going to use Fistulous Withers as my pen name.


Not sure that's a good idea. . . .It kind of sounds like a character in. . . .shall we call it. . .an "adult" film. . . .


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

I have already stated I cleaned up the manuscript to the best of my ability. I am starting to feel that I have nothing new to add on that subject, so after this post I am going to hold my tongue when it comes to responding to this thread. If anybody sees any grammar mistakes in the sample on amazon I would appreciate if you mentioned it to me.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Misogynist/dp/B001V5J4VO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247234111&sr=8-1

You know I think a lot of my problems stem from the fact I never had to worry about grammar. The public school system put you in honor's English or something else. In honor's English it was basically a book club with some creative writing on the side, they expected you to know grammar. I could write book reports, write the haiku poetry, so the teachers would just rubber stamp me as I went through the system.

Then I started writing code, writing code is a lot like writing books. You create a story with subroutines, you have a beg and an end. In the code, the grammar syntax, could be seen as the commands, the placement of brackets and the likes in the code. If the code wasn't clean the program wouldn't execute.

If anyone has a place where I could get my work reviewed before I post it I would appreciate it. Though I am worried about my work being plagiarized.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

By "reviewed" do you mean critiqued and edited?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

archer said:


> Betsy:
> 
> C.S. Marks here. I just had to interject--the 'Winter Chair' quilt--WOW!
> (And...that's some hat!)
> I'm an illustrator as well as a writer, hence I had to comment on the 'fabric art.'


CS-

thanks for the kind words on my quilt. The hat I only wear to Book Klubs. 

and Ann's point is well taken about the 10 year olds--if I want blunt honesty about a quilt, I ask the grandkids.

Betsy


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

@Rj :

"By "reviewed" do you mean critiqued and edited?  "

Yes and no.

I don't want anyone else editing my work, but copy and paste some grammatical errors as part of the critique. It would be nice if the platform looked a lot like amazon dtp, and readers could see the "preview screen" that amazon displays after you upload your work.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

If you're just interested in sharing your work, then that's cool. But if you want your work to be taken seriously, I _*strongly * _ (and boldly, in italics) suggest an outside editor. Not because I think your work in particular needs it - I don't know, because I haven't read it - but because EVERYONE'S work needs it.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

"Lisa Loves girls"

http://www.amazon.com/Lisa-Loves-Girls-ebook/dp/B002EZZJ4Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247235097&sr=8-1

After some incidents on the amazon forum, I was getting all kinds of reviews that were phony. Nobody had bought the book recently so I knew the reviews were just people attacking me, so I changed the name to a pseudonym. One of the reviews has been removed but another still remains. Maybe it's true. I will admit I don't like "Lisa Loves Girls" as much as the Misogynist.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Emily--

Hang in there, girl!

Lkcambell mentioned http://www.critiquecircle.com in a previous post. Also, one of our members has offered to proof a chapter or two for free. (Note that I know there is a difference between proofreading and editing.)

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,10789.msg205213.html#msg205213

Since you've written code, you know the importance of testing. It seems to me that having your book proofed, edited and/or critiqued is like testing the program to see if it works. As a quilter, I'm in a critique group. I take the feedback and then decide whether to incorporate their thoughts (or not) or use them as a springboard to make a better piece. If no one "gets it" I know the piece isn't working (the program didn't execute. ).

I can't encourage you enough to hang out here in the Book Bazaar as much as time allows, there are some VERY experienced authors here!

Betsy


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

emilydowns said:


> I have already stated I cleaned up the manuscript to the best of my ability. I am starting to feel that I have nothing new to add on that subject, so after this post I am going to hold my tongue when it comes to responding to this thread. If anybody sees any grammar mistakes in the sample on amazon I would appreciate if you mentioned it to me.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Misogynist/dp/B001V5J4VO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247234111&sr=8-1
> 
> ...


Emily,

I've worked with 4 different professional editors on my books who charge $0.01 per word. If you would like me to provide you with their contact information, I'd be happy to send it to you in a PM. Just let me know and I'll get it to you.

(Each one of my books have to go through multiple editors before I publish them. The idea behind my strategy is that no matter how well I proofread, in addition to how good my editors are, every editor brings something new to the table and will catch mistakes that the other one will not.)


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

AaarrrrrrrrrrrRRRRR!

Cap'n Fistulous Withers be my pirate name. Arrr!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

archer,

i just snorted coffee.  NOT a pretty sight!

Betsy


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

This post is to my sister and my calling my nephew a nightmare. He is a great nightmare, I love playing with my nephew, it's just he has so much energy and I get such a kick out of chasing him around I don't realize I can't keep up with his energy anymore. I can barely walk today.

Sorry.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Ann, no porn star worth his salt would let anyone say he Withers.

Emily, I'm in the midst of reading Lisa Loves Girls. It's filled with run-on sentences, mistaken punctuation, and the like. Setting that aside, I agree with you. It's not as good as The Misogynist. I think your strength is in the first-person voice, not the third.

Having said that, I keep bumping into sections that I wish I had written. Cases in point:

"She is already dressed, all bracelets and black clothing."

"...Lisa falls into slang from outside her zip code."

"...her vision feels like looking at sunshine under water."

"New tourist girls would come and go, like the tide that used to bring fish for the village."

I also admired the way you handled the


Spoiler



lesbian sex scene between the conscious and unconscious girls


. I loved the new car/new girl section -- an effective use of the olfactory sense.

Your aversion to editing might be overcome if you experimented with it. A good editor doesn't try to remake your work; a good editor helps others see your talent. Many new authors fear that someone will swipe their work, but literary theft is rare. It's just the fear of theft that's rampant.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Patricia--

Your comment to Ann definitely made me laugh out loud!

I put spoiler block on your one phrase as we have members who browse KindleBoards with small readers hanging on to them, and we don't want them have to explain certain things to them before they're ready.  You can read the blocked text by putting the cursor over it.

To use spoiler block, highlight the text to be blocked and then click on the little icon that says SP in black and white, to the right side of the top line of message attributes. Or click it first and type between the two [ SP] tags. Let me know if you have any questions.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Ann, no porn star worth his salt would let anyone say he Withers.


Hmm. . . .good point. . . .perhaps an insulting nickname, then. . . . .


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## Forster (Mar 9, 2009)

emily if I came across too harsh in my posts yesterday, I apologize.  I definitely can do that at times.  At any rate you've gotten quite a bit of good advice on both the importance of editing and some resources about how to go about doing it.  I do wish you luck with your writing and would hate to see you fail because of something fixable.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

You can be edited without the editor changing anything. Word, and many similar programs, have an editing function that allows someone to comment and change things around without it being permanent. Their suggestions are usually in red.  

It's actually painful to see all the red marks, even if they consist of adding missed commas, but if you take suggestions one by one, you'll end up with a better final draft. Eventually, especially when you're a novice, you need to let other people bring their knowledge and suggestions to the MS. Eventually, you'll be at the point where you can confidently know what edits to make and when it's time to fight to keep something.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Ann, the spoiler block makes my comment look much more interesting than it is. Mysterious. I like it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy did that. .  . but I agree with it for the reasons she stated. . . . .


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm getting my moderators mixed up. I blame it on reading Ann's comment and being too busy laughing to notice there was a change in posters.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

Patricia thanks for all the support. If I had a kindle I would read your work. 

You know how I discovered Salinger, I was about 12 give or take a year, going through some of my Mother's things in the garage. There was this red covered book in a box with no other books. I thought it must be a dirty book and of course took it.

I caught on that this was just a normal book by the first paragraph, but I finished it, I was hooked. Catcher with it's "I don't feel like going into it" is one of my favorite beg to a story. The other is "you can't win" by jack black, it has a great opening reflection, "Do I look like a librarian, I turn my chair so I can look in the mirror."


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Emily, I haven't read Black's work. Sounds like I should.

I had the same reaction you did when I discovered Salinger. In college I took a class that was devoted to studying his work. My co-author on the J.D. book lives not far from Salinger's home and ran into him one day at the grocery store. That encounter became a scene in the book.

RedAdept, I couldn't figure out how to list links to more than two books in the signature. I have two other Kindle books -- The Absence of Color, and From the Writer Half of My Being. I'm assuming you meant the Writer book because that's the one you reviewed. I have that review tattooed on my forehead. Getting stars from you is as hard as pulling them out of the sky.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

Emily, a good editor is a must for a writer. Do you plan on ever submitting your work to tradtional publisher, a writing contest, a magazine, etc. Each one of them has an editor whos job it is to look at your work.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Most of the work should be done by the time it's submitted though. All the obvious stuff certainly -- spelling and grammar. The editor might have his or her own grammar nitpicks, but they should be able to see that the elementary stuff is done. When they get it, should it be accepted, their work shouldn't be about missed commas, but more about getting the story right.


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## LCEvans (Mar 29, 2009)

> Instead of just adding more of the same, perhaps some of our great author-members could share some of their strategies to get their books proofed on the cheap? (And I know some have already done this.)


I read through my own work a million times and still miss typos. But I work with an online critique group and the members are a huge help with typos and with picking up plot problems and sloppy writing. One of my daughters is also a writer and we read each other's work and critique. As for indie publishing, after my publisher for Talented Horsewoman refused to put the book on Kindle (they own the electronic rights), I went independent for my books Night Camp and We Interrupt This Date. I haven't regretted my decision. It isn't the money that's important, it's the readers.

Emily,
I will sample your book. Best of luck to you in your writing career.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

A new edited version of "The Misogynist" was uploaded the other day, please sample the story.

Some men seem to dislike this story on the grounds of subject matter, so be warned.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Misogynist/dp/B001V5J4VO


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Checked out the sample...there's still quite a few errors in just the sample itself.

Commas that sit outside of quotations (American grammar dictates the commas ALWAYS be inside), and a question that's left with a lowercase first word, and a period at the end, as well as other small issues.

Didn't you have an entire group of people edit those first few pages over on the Amazon forums?  With that many people giving you free proofing how did you miss those?


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Shane (aka Morpheus Phreak), why aren't you posting on Amazon's Kindle Forum anymore? I miss your posts.

It's not entirely accurate to say that "American grammar dictates the commas ALWAYS be inside [quotation marks]." If, for example, you're saying one thing but meaning another, the final quotation mark goes inside the period, exclamation mark, or question mark -- as in this sentence:

That plastic table has a nice grain in the "wood".


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree Patricia. . . .I see the proper use of the comma/quotation thing as a bit nebulous.  I know what the American rule is, but, frankly, I think the British method is more logical. . . . .  So that wouldn't bother me at all. LOL!


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> That plastic table has a nice grain in the "wood".


If I were editing that, I would change it: That plastic table has a nice grain in the "wood." I agree with MP: periods and commmas, inside, always.

The way around it would be to use single quotes to signify 'fake wood'. Then the period could be outside.

L


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

If you check "Words Into Type" (my Bible), you'll see that what I wrote is correct.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> If you check "Words Into Type" (my Bible), you'll see that what I wrote is correct.


There are different style manuals. Not everyone uses that one -- I don't. If you were writing for my journal, your sentence, as written, would be edited and you wouldn't have the option to change it back, no matter how much you quibbled with me.  And believe me, I have dealt with plenty of quibbling authors.

L


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

I wouldn't quibble with you. I'm a laid-back sort of girl. My quibble, if I had one, was with the word "always" in Shane's post because "always" does not apply. As you point out, different people use different style books for reference. I'm happy to let those books argue with each other. I use "Words Into Type" because that's the one my editor at Random House told me to use. According to her, it's the industry standard.

Edit: This was a response to Leslie.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

lkcampbell said:


> I prefer to go to battle over more important stuff than comma placement.
> I think the problem in this case is that Emily believes she's right and everyone is wrong. She won't listen to other opinions unless they're heaping praises on her.


I thought that point had been made (and made, and made, and made) so I moved on to dispute a blanket statement about quotations marks and punctuation that I knew to be incorrect. Since we're writers, isn't it nearly as important to correct false "writing rules" as it is to continue to point out what some see as Emily's failings?

Since you brought them up, a word about commas: I'm of the old school, still putting that final comma before "and" in a list of items. For me, it does matter. Leaving commas out can change the meaning of what's being said.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Well some of us are readers.
Even on threads like this one.
And I agree that correct English usage - American style for works published in America - is important.
I further agree with Leslie that the editor has the final say.
I guess that if an author does not like the editor's opinion, then the author can take their work elsewhere (when their contract is over).

One needs to be careful that the slick use of words does not lose the reader.
Or that the adherence to current slang does not also lose much of the reading public.
Unless of course you don't want that segment to read your work.

But the bottom line is that one writes to be read.

Or else why do it?


Just sayin.......


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

LKCampbell, I certainly didn't mean to indicate that you got under my skin, if I'm one of the ones you meant. You didn't. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding if that's what you believe. I have nothing but respect for you.

I am not the person you encountered elsewhere being passionate about commas (but I am passionate about them). I've never posted about them anywhere before.

What is RD?


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> I further agree with Leslie that the editor has the final say.
> I guess that if an author does not like the editor's opinion, then the author can take their work elsewhere (when their contract is over).


I've had books published by two major publishing houses. In both cases, the editors did not exert any "final say" when it came to editing. They made suggestions, discussed those proposed changes with me and, if I felt strongly, my original version went to press. It was a conversation, not a power struggle. The same was true of line edits. Sometimes line editors make changes that are "proper" but they are in conflict with the author's intent. When that's explained, the changes are removed. Or at least they were in my case.

LK, no problem. I understand. It's hard to think of you as ill-tempered. I've been reading your posts here and on the Kindle forum for a while now, and I see you as a voice of reason.


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Hey, I want to know what book that is that Red Adept says she loves. I always buy her recommendations.

P.S. I consider you a friend, too, Red.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

lkcampbell said:


> Sorry, Patricia. I was accused of being ill-tempered, I think, on another post.


Egads, no! I know what post you're talking about -- and I didn't use that phrase in my post over there, but I know what was meant, and it wasn't YOU!


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Speaking from the editor's chair (which is where I spend most of my time) -- I agree, it's a conversation, a dialog about changes. It is not a power struggle. That said, for my journals and books, I have certain style rules that are non-negotiable. The fact is, I have a style manual that I follow. Mostly I rely on AMA (American Medical Association) with a few rare exceptions. The rules all come from established sources...they are not idiosyncratic thoughts that I dreamt up out of my own head. They exist, by and large, for consistency throughout the published paper or book. 

Somewhere else, someone posted that editors should be focusing on content, continuity, story arc, etc. and that's true. But there are lots of authors who are not very good editors when it comes to the picky stuff -- and that's fine. But for me, I correct the picky stuff, and I am not going to be swayed by the argument that "That's my writing style," or "That's the way my style manual said to do it." I think about the reader and the reading experience. Just glance around the boards here. Readers hate badly formatted books, misspellings, and so on. To me, as an editor, it is a big part of my job to make sure those things are fixed.

L


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Hey, I want to know what book that is that Red Adept says she loves. I always buy her recommendations.
> 
> P.S. I consider you a friend, too, Red.


The book was "Of Mice and Men".


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Shouldn't it be _Of Mice and Men_?



Betsy


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Just as a reference point my usage of 'always' actually comes directly from multiple sources.  

I'll post a few of them here:

"When it comes to commas and periods, though, logic doesn't enter into the equation, at least not in the United States.  Universal American usage places commas and periods inside the quotation marks, regardless of logic."


The next two examples come from Purdue University:

"5. In all the examples above, note how the period or comma punctuation always comes before the final quotation mark."

"Note that commas and periods go inside the closing quotation mark in conventional American usage"


Grammarbook states this as their 1st rule of quotations:

"Rule 1. Periods and commas always go inside quotation marks, even inside single quotes."


Also in every English text I ever read for school all of them agreed on 'inside always' usage.


The only way to truly 'break' that rule is in what was mentioned earlier where it's not being used for speech but as part of a normal sentence using the single quotations.

I also tend to use single quotations for when I say something, that's a paraphrase or used in a manner other than straight usage.




Yes I know I'm strange.

Patricia, check your PM's in a little bit.  You'll have an explanation from me


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Leslie, what I meant about style and the writer's intent can be illustrated by J.D. Salinger's work. An editor correcting J.D.'s writing would have ruined it. Creating art often requires breaking some rules.

I'd vote against following a single style manual or being rigid about rules. Style changes, evolves, keeps pace with the times. What if Emily Dickinson decided to write poetry the way it was "supposed" to be written? Her first editors changed her work to make it look more like what others were writing, but in time that was seen as a big mistake. Later editions came out with those changes reversed. Sometimes (but not always) the writer, not the editor, deserves the final say.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Leslie, what I meant about style and the writer's intent can be illustrated by J.D. Salinger's work. An editor correcting J.D.'s writing would have ruined it. Creating art often requires breaking some rules.


99.9% of the writers out there aren't Salinger. And, he was edited.



> I'd vote against following a single style manual or being rigid about rules. Style changes, evolves, keeps pace with the times. What if Emily Dickinson decided to write poetry the way it was "supposed" to be written? Her first editors changed her work to make it look more like what others were writing, but in time that was seen as a big mistake. Later editions came out with those changes reversed. Sometimes (but not always) the writer, not the editor, deserves the final say.


You were the one who quoted a style manual to me and called it "the Bible." My point is that there are many Bibles, and many rules.

L


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Leslie,

Of course few writers are Salingers. All I'm saying is that rigid "text must fit the rules" editing leaves little room for art. We can be grateful that Salinger's work didn't get into such an editor's hands, but even if it had, it wouldn't have remained there long.

And of course there are many style books. My point was that no one book creates an "always" rule because, in creative writing, there's no such thing as always. I rely on my style book when there's a question I want answered the same way I consult a dictionary for spelling.

Writers are like painters in that they need to know the rules before breaking them. Otherwise, those broken rules are just mistakes.


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

What am I, chopped liver?  

I already pointed out multiple sources that state the 'always' rule.  Although as mentioned I agree with the single quotations rule mentioned above.

That said, you've got a PM now Patricia


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Writers are like painters in that they need to know the rules before breaking them. Otherwise, those broken rules are just mistakes.


Which brings us full circle in that many people here are saying that Emily doesn't know the rules and thus has made mistakes. Given that I haven't read her stuff, I only speak from hearsay, but that seems to be the crux of the issue that has been discussed.

L


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Exactly, Leslie. To be taken seriously as an author, she needs to be serious about her craft. A mentor (you, for example) could make a big difference in her work. She doesn't appear ready to accept that sort of help just now, but perhaps someday that will change.

I've seen many complaints about Emily's run-on sentences, but I viewed many as being simply her style. Were I her editor, there are things I would have suggested she change or correct, but there are many "mistakes" I wouldn't have touched. I hear the rhythm in her voice. Many authors run-on just as she does and it's accepted, even admired, but because she broke other rules it's assumed that the run-on sentences need to be fixed. That's a faulty assumption.

I wouldn't want to see Emily adhere to a style book because that isn't who she is. I would encourage her to clean up the mechanics of her work where necessary, but to follow the rhythm that propels her pen. She does have talent.


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Again...my posts...totally ignored lol.

This is actually starting to get amusing


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Shane, no, you're not chopped liver! It doesn't matter how many sources one has saying it's "always" when there are others that say otherwise. It's just a matter of personal preference. If you feel better putting the quotation marks outside the punctuation every time, fine. I'll stick with flexibility.

I got your message. Thanks.


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Shane, no, you're not chopped liver! It doesn't matter how many sources one has saying it's "always" when there are others that say otherwise. It's just a matter of personal preference. If you feel better putting the quotation marks outside the punctuation every time, fine. I'll stick with flexibility.
> 
> I got your message. Thanks.


You're welcome 

I believe in flexibility...but I also believe that there are some rules that should be followed almost without exception. The reason being that it makes reading more enjoyable. I prefer properly placed punctuation since it can change the meaning of a sentence entirely.

1 quick example just entirely out of my head.

He ran into the house hitting his head on the doorframe.

He ran, into the house, hitting his head on the doorframe.

In only one of those sentences did he actually make it inside the house. That's why I think for punctuation rules should be followed almost unswervingly. Sure I can see if someone is intentionally breaking the rule for a reason. However, I don't see it when it's just sloppy errors.

If you look at the page her book is listed on, she corrected an instance of the comma, but that same instance is still incorrect into the sample. She left the other ones alone entirely.

I won't say more though since I know what will happen if I continue posting *sighs*


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Leslie said:


> If I were editing that, I would change it: That plastic table has a nice grain in the "wood." I agree with MP: periods and commmas, inside, always.
> 
> The way around it would be to use single quotes to signify 'fake wood'. Then the period could be outside.
> 
> L


I'm definitely not an expert, but putting a period on a single word within the quote looks, well...... stupid. If it were a complete phrase or sentence, it would look ok. On the other hand, correct English frequently looks wrong.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

> correct English frequently looks wrong.


I hate the word _thoroughly_. It just looks wrong.

Thoroughly.

See what I mean?


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## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> I hate the word _thoroughly_. It just looks wrong.
> 
> Thoroughly.
> 
> See what I mean?


Is that your puddin' talkin'?


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Yes!


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

There's a few words that mess with me really bad.

Roads...WTF?

Through and Threw...following the ough = O rule...shouldn't Through be pronounced Throw, and not Threw?

Meh.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Or maybe it should be "thruff"?


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

Susan in VA said:


> Or maybe it should be "thruff"?


Doh!


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## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

Susan in VA said:


> Or maybe it should be "thruff"?


That is what I was thinking!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

ghoti

Pronounced "fish":  gh as in "tough", o as in "women" and ti as in "nation".  fish.  

In music, they teach you the rules for proper harmonization, proper technique, how to hold the instrument, what NEVER to do, etc.  But, if you watch the greats, you see that pretty much all of them break some of the 'rules' now and again.  The lesson is:  you can't know when it's o.k. to 'break' a rule if you haven't learned the rule and have a feel for why it exists in the first place.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> In music, they teach you the rules for proper harmonization, proper technique, how to hold the instrument, what NEVER to do, etc. But, if you watch the greats, you see that pretty much all of them break some of the 'rules' now and again. The lesson is: you can't know when it's o.k. to 'break' a rule if you haven't learned the rule and have a feel for why it exists in the first place.


There's a similar discussion that goes on all the time in art quilting. The people who say they are making "art" so technique doesn't matter vs the people who are all about technique.

My stand is that one needs to know technique to ensure clarity of vision. If my construction technique distracts from what I'm trying to say (as a quilter), my message won't get across. Knowing good construction techniques helps me to make sure the message is clear. I break "the rules" when that HELPS get my vision across, not just for the sake of breaking the rules or because I don't know proper technique. Sometimes I want clean seams, straight borders and a flat quilt, sometimes I want raw edges, wavy borders and an undulating quilt. Depends on what I want to reveal.

Betsy the Quilter
who must get back to quilting. must finish quilting today must finish quilting today must finish quilting today.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Betsy the Quilter
> who must get back to quilting. must finish quilting today must finish quilting today must finish quilting today.


yes. . . .because aren't you going away on Wednesday?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> yes. . . .because aren't you going away on Wednesday?


must finish quilting must finish quilting must finish quilting.


stepping away from the keyboard.

Betsy


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, even if ghoti is pronounced fish, when I read it, I hear "goat-ee" in my head. LOL

L


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

"Gee each owe tea eye smells fish."
Finnegan's Wake, by James Joyce, regarding "ghoti."


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

In writing, a rule is always broken for a reason. Ignorance is one reason. "For art's sake," is another. "Intemperance, revolution, innovation," are all valid. But the best reason to break a rule is to misdirect the reader - to gallop them along with a jolt, and while they're looking "this way or that way," you set a sneaky little "something" down that they don't see, until it matters . . . usually at a key point in the work. I do this all the time so when readers tell me they are surprised at the end of


Spoiler



Bobby's Trace


 or they couldn't figure out who the murderer was in


Spoiler



Turning Idolater


, it comes as no surprise to me. That's because when the key elements that give it all away occur in the body of the work, I've shift from past tense to present tense or failed to agree in number or, my favorite, broke a POV rule. While they are trying to reengage themselves back into the measure, I have quietly slipped the key piece of information right under their nose and locked it in their subconscious. That's why I write. I love writing and the many variations and opportunities I get to assault the imagination. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Ah ha! Now we know Ed's secret: I'll be reading _The Jade Owl_ more closely now. . . . . .


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

Patricia Sierra said:


> Exactly, Leslie. To be taken seriously as an author, she needs to be serious about her craft. A mentor (you, for example) could make a big difference in her work. She doesn't appear ready to accept that sort of help just now, but perhaps someday that will change.
> 
> I've seen many complaints about Emily's run-on sentences, but I viewed many as being simply her style. Were I her editor, there are things I would have suggested she change or correct, but there are many "mistakes" I wouldn't have touched. I hear the rhythm in her voice. Many authors run-on just as she does and it's accepted, even admired, but because she broke other rules it's assumed that the run-on sentences need to be fixed. That's a faulty assumption.
> 
> I wouldn't want to see Emily adhere to a style book because that isn't who she is. I would encourage her to clean up the mechanics of her work where necessary, but to follow the rhythm that propels her pen. She does have talent.


I don't think she should have to adhere to a style book, but I agree with the comments upthread about knowing the rules -- and then making an informed decision to break them. I think you're right that if she cleared up the mechanics that are not tied to personal style, people would be able to hear the unique voice.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Ann:



I'll still trip you up. I'll never give up all the secrets.   

Edward C. Patterson


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Ann:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No good author ever does, that is why they are GOOOD!


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

RedAdept said:


> I agree with the people here who have implied that, yes, it's okay for an author to break some rules in the interest of 'style', but they need to do it with an eye for the reader's comfort.


You started me thinking. (and in the context of a thread full of tangents, I'll just run with it)

What do you think about books like _A Clockwork Orange_ which is written in a complex, made-up slang or _Trainspotting_ where the author wrote in a dense working class Scottish accent?

In both these cases, the narrator's first person voice made it important to write that way but also made it much harder for the reader to get into the swing of things ...


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## Patricia Sierra (Jun 25, 2009)

Everyone's comfort level is different. I'm lazy. If I have to work to get through a book, I won't start the journey. But that's just me.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> You started me thinking. (and in the context of a thread full of tangents, I'll just run with it)
> 
> What do you think about books like _A Clockwork Orange_ which is written in a complex, made-up slang or _Trainspotting_ where the author wrote in a dense working class Scottish accent?
> 
> In both these cases, the narrator's first person voice made it important to write that way but also made it much harder for the reader to get into the swing of things ...


Real literature makes its own laws. Burroughs was a brilliant stylist with a unique vision, and I admire him immensely. For him, language is the book's real protagonist, and it's simply horrorshow. 

I'll give 'Trainspotting' a look, but probably only that if it's dialect throughout. There's a killing difference between testing a reader and taxing him.

CK


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Carolyn:

I've read a few of Irvine Welsh's novels and, while _Trainspotting_ is not a work of art on the level of _A clockwork Orange _ (what is), he has a command of language that makes his use of dialect an important part of _Trainspotting's_ overall flavor and I couldn't imagine reading it in proper English .... I'm happy you're taking a peak as I thoroughly enjoyed the book .... hopefully you'll enjoy it.

(BTW, I just finished Wysard this past weekend ....)


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> Carolyn:
> (BTW, I just finished Wysard this past weekend ....)


I'm very grateful for your discerning review, and hope you won't mind if I quote it on my book thread here. 

You'd like _Lord Brother_ even more, I think; it has a very different flavor, with much more action. The full first chapter is at my website.

With many thanks,

CK


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

CK. . . .per "forum decorum" please do NOT quote any reviews from Amazon on the threads here.  You are welcome to post a link, if you wish.

Thanks,

Ann

(still searching for my hat)


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> CK. . . .per "forum decorum" please do NOT quote any reviews from Amazon on the threads here. You are welcome to post a link, if you wish.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...


My apologies, Ann.

It's done all the time by many here, so I assumed it was 'legal.' Thank you for the clarification. 

CK


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

When we see it. . .we ask for it to be removed. . . . . .thanks for understanding. . . . . .


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## libros_lego (Mar 24, 2009)

Just curious...why can't we quote reviews here?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Redundancy. When I first came on board, I cluttered up the works with my reviews. I didn't read the guidelines. My bad. I have systematically removed all my Amazon reviews from my threads. When I post a review now, I will state (Not on Amazon). However, sometimes it winds up on Amazon after the fact. I will quote a line from a review if it has pertenance to a topic, but then it's not a promotion. If I get a new review, I will mention it and link. In fact, if I mention my books on any thread other than ones in the Book Bazaar, I use the spoiler blacking (and in most cases just say . . . my book). I also use the spoiler blacking when referring to my books in someone else's thread so as not to hijack a thread. Ann of Arlington and Betsy the Quilter have trained me well.  

Edward C. Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jenni said:


> Just curious...why can't we quote reviews here?


The thing is. . . .everyone here knows how to get to Amazon. . . .if there's a particularly good review that an author has received, he/she is welcome to post a link to it for others to check out. Not everyone will, but those who are interested will be able to find it. But there's no real point in using a lot of board real estate in copying it here.

And yes. . .Ed has learned well. . . . . .

(See there, I could have just done the 'mom' thing and said "because we said so".  Actually, anyone who hasn't should probably read the Forum Decorum: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,36.msg75.html#msg75. The 'rules', such as they are, are in place to keep the conversation informative and cordial. Oh, and fun. We like fun! )


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Ann, if your did the Mom thing, I would had asked just how old you . . . oh, well, I'll be good. No one has more fun on this board than I. (Than me, for the grammatical challenged and as thine humble servant, for the Elizabethan inclined).

Edward C. Minx-and-a-half


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm 50. . . .DS is 26. . . . . .but don't you dare ask what I weigh. At least, if you do, I won't tell you.  My mother always said, you can't help your age, but you _can_ help your weight.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, I have a little brother your age.  I clock in at six decades plus 2, and weigh . . . well, I'm lighter than I was in


Spoiler



Surviving an American Gulag


. See, I used the blacking.  Now back to our regularly sponsored topic.

Ed Patterson


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

Geoffrey said:


> What do you think about books like _A Clockwork Orange_ which is written in a complex, made-up slang


I found _A Clockwork Orange_ extremely difficult to read. I wouldn't have bothered had it not been for school. Same with Shakespeare.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Jenni said:


> Just curious...why can't we quote reviews here?


Jenni and everyone, let me add to what Ann has said on this topic:

We've asked that members not put reviews from Amazon in their posts here. If there is a link to the book on Amazon, our members can find the reviews.

The problem with adding reviews to any advertisement, not just books, is that the seller will usually, and understandably, select the most favorable reviews or bits. This doesn't really help customer much in his or her decision-making process. And people with an ax to grind can post only the poor reviews. 

And, as said earlier, posting entire reviews here takes up a lot of space....and sometimes authors or fans of a book want to quote ALL the good reviews.  This makes for very long posts.

Finally, if the author or fan picks out short bits from a review to post, it reminds me somewhat of the snips one sees in movie ads: "Brilliant!" in large type, "Bob Smith, _Buck Snort Sentinel_" in tiny letters. (And yes, Buck Snort is a real town in Tennessee, although I don't know if it has a paper.) Who knows what the reviewer, if he/she exists, really said? Perhaps Bob said, "This is a Brilliant piece of ..." When I look at movie ads, the shorter the snip and the smaller the font for the reviewer's name and paper, the less credence I give that comment. It's one of my criteria for determining whether the movie is any good or not. 

Anyway, thanks for working with us on this, we try to keep KindleBoards fairly user friendly, and this helps!

Betsy


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> The question is: How many copies of the Misogynist have been sold by this long hijacked, off-topic thread. I think we need to establish a Shakespeare thread in the Book Corner. nes pas.
> Edward C. Patterson


I keep forgetting this is a thread about a book called the Misogynist, since it seems to have wandered all over the landscape

Ed- you still in Brooklyn?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Moved from Brooklyn 30 years ago. Lived in NJ for 30 years, and now I'm in Pennsylvania (although maintain NJ residence as gay men have more human rights in NJ than in PA, and hey I lobbied and fought for them. PA is a shade more liberal than Albanian, pardon me Albanians).

Edward C. Patterson


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, I'm going to split the Shakespeare stuff from here and merge it with the thread in the Book Corner. Thanks for moving the discussion!

(If you're looking for the Shakespeare posts that were in this thread, they're now in this thread:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,11660.msg222987.html#msg222987)

Betsy


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

The author hasn't been on since the 17th.


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

People are mentioning some great books in this thread.
That has to be a good sign, you should read the sample.
See what you are missing.

The Misogynist B001V5J4VO


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

When I read "The Misogynist" I still can't believe how good it is.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

emilydowns said:


> When I read "The Misogynist" I still can't believe how good it is.


Are you joking? (You are the author, right?)


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## emilydowns (Jul 8, 2009)

I am not joking. Go ahead see how creative it is. And think, there isn't single goblin or dragon.


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