# Evenstar's Monster Post on Amazon Keywords



## Evenstar

Edited to add a summary at the bottom!

I have decided to write a dedicated thread to Keywords (just on Amazon in this post) because I am seeing this coming up so often and being answered again and again but maybe not fully enough to allay all questions. I would like to say that this is not set in stone and I don't have any data to back it up except for reading posts that other people have made on the subject and from my own personal experience of frequently playing with keywords to get it right.

*While I think that covers and blurbs generate sales, your keywords generate people looking at the book in the first place. *

Firstly I would say that one word keywords are essentially useless. If LOVE is one of my keywords, then they are too broad to get much return. If I type LOVE into Amazon search will my romance novel appear on the first page? Will it even appear on the first 100 pages? *No.* It will get me _nowhere at all!_ Using such generic terms will not help people find your book.

I used to have: _Teen Romance, young adult love, high school boys, stuff like that_. But even though all those terms are relevant to me, they also got lost in the "noise" of all the other authors with the same thing. You need to rise above the noise, but still put in keywords that people might use to search.

The key is to find keywords that are popular but not too popular. But remember, it isn't how many people search for those keywords, it is how many _hits_ those keywords produce. If it is millions then your books will be lost. *But* you want to find the keywords that millions of people are searching for and yet are not being over-used.

I absolutely know that sounds difficult but it isn't. What I mean is - if you search for_ Love_ in books you will get millions of hits, but if you search for _Werewolf Love_, you will get a much more specific list of products, if you narrow it again and search for _Werewolf and Mermaid Love_, then you should get quite a small list of hits as I can't imagine there are millions of books in that niche (if any!). So you would, in an ideal world, basically want *something between search two and search three*. See how I'm trying to narrow down a search to something that is a popular search but does not create a huge list of relevant products? You want your product to be the one that comes up at least on the first page of products that are relevant to the search.

For my book _Halloween Magic & Mayhem_, I have used _Paranormal Romance_, but then specified further using: _Paranormal Romance Witch Werewolf,_ so if people want a book that covers witches and werewolves in love then I'm up there. Then I cheated and put:_ paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love._ I basically used what we call on here* "keyword stuffing"* to cover my bases. The romance is between a witch and a werewolf but there are zombies and ghosts in the story and the werewolf is a shifter. So I show up even if they are searching for a slightly different term. If they are searching for a _zombie romance_ I show up. They will quickly see that I am not a zombie romance, but they might be intrigued anyway as the book is a romance and there are zombies in it. Do you see what I am doing? I use repetition to ensure that I get close to the exact search term they might put in AND I keyword stuff to make sure that I at least have a combination of the words they put in.

People usually search for terms not for one word, so put terms in. If your book is about a human and an alien falling in love then try something like: _Paranormal love story book, alien romance sci-fi love, paranormal science fiction romance, fantasy ebook alien romantic fiction, non-human romance relationship alien lover._ See how I am using lots of different search terms for basically the same words? That's because you want to capture that market, you want to appear when people specify what they are looking for.

*If you were searching for a book like yours what would you type into Amazon?* Now try it and see how many results you get. You don't want to pick words on their own in a saturated genre (like love and romance or science fiction) because you will never show up, but equally you don't want to waste time with keywords that no-one is searching for. So it is a balancing act.

You need to take ten minutes and do some searches, you want to find terms that produce under 10,000 hits but more than just a few hundred.* You *need to decide what this figure should be, based on how niche your genre is.

Now, you don't need to have the _exact phrases_ that people are searching for, as keywords work together, and you get seven of them. But you do want to have ALL the necessary keywords if at all possible. The whole point of keyword stuffing is so that whatever phrase they type in, as long as you have the relevant keywords, then you should show up. The more spot on you are with what people search for, the more likely you will come up on that first page of results. So no, it doesn't need to be the exact wording, but I do think it helps! Basically, I think that you want to have the exact words but in any old order in your keywords. So make sure all relevant words are in there and get stuffing!

They also serve one more purpose, which is to get you in the right "categories". So when you are done with keywords relevant to search terms, then you should also have a quick think about keywords that are category specific. For example, if you want to appear in the category "Short Stories>Alien Landings>England" then you want to put that phrase in as a keyword. The best way to locate these is to do a search for a popular book that is similar to yours and see what categories they have gotten into. You will be surprised by some of the categories but a lot of people search that way, so it is a good idea to pay attention.
Amazon will actually help you with this. There are pages in their help with guides, for example I might use this one:
https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A1XEN0SRCO1KPB
I can not recommend strongly enough that you at least go and have a look at some of the search terms that they suggest for your own category!

Okay, now I'm going to drill it down even further. Those of you that are already running for the hills - stop at this point and just do the bits above. Because those are the basics of how keywords seem to work on Amazon.

Now&#8230; If you have more than one book in a series, you can use tighter more specific keywords for your second book (which will of course lead people back to your first book). For your second book you can use some more unusual terms, and find smaller categories. You want words that people search for that are relevant to your book, but perhaps are not so popular.
For instance, going back to my Magic & Mayhem series, I will stuff book one with all the more common terms about witches and love, and use phrases like _Coming of Age first kiss love teen romance_, stuff like that. But I will stuff Book Two with keywords I couldn't fit in for book one that are more specific, like: _Magic witches witchcraft Wicca pagan worship ceremony nature-worship moon goddess sorcery wizards wand occult_ (all those are just one keyword). This is to direct the more niche market to my books and also to get me into some of the very small categories that I might even hit a number one spot in, which is fantastic because it really increases visibility for the whole series.

Phew, thanks for following so far and I hope some of this helps. I'm sorry it has turned into such a monster post!
Please, if anyone has anything to add, then I'm still keen to drill down even more! But as far as I know, that is how Amazon keywords work.
Do you see how vitally important they can be? They shouldn't be generic and ignored! They work on a lot of levels for you. I only learned this very recently so I'm still updating a lot of my books, and playing with combinations, and doing new searches I think of or discovering new categories I want to be in, but I see an instant upswing when I get it right 

_I've decided to add a summary of the above because a) this thread is really long and some of the latest information is buried in it, and b) because I'm still getting loads of PM's asking me to check keywords and a lot of people have still missed some of the crucial points._

*So, to summarise:*

- Do NOT use one-word keywords, it will be a waste. 
- Avoid really generic terms, they will get lost way down the listings.
- You don't just get seven keywords. You get 400 characters (including spaces) and you can create up to seven "keyword strings" using those characters.
- Start by trying to hit extra categories. Find the ones you want to be in from other books in your genre and add those categories to your keywords
- Do keywords searches on Amazon looking for phrases relevant to your book that get a lot of results but not a ridiculous amount, so you will show up on at least the first couple of pages.
- The jury is still out on whether you even need commas or if you can just have one long string of keywords. Personally I like commas.
- Does repeating certain words in different strings help? I don't know, the majority seem to think it is a waste of words and you should only use each one once in the entire keyword section. That is probably true and so I recommend using variations instead, e.g. Romantic and Romance
- Later books in the series can get really specific on keywords and hit very niche categories, which all helps, so use variety for a series rather than sticking to the same
- If you aren't showing up in at least five categories then change them, and the same if you are not showing up on page one when you search for terms you have deliberately used
- And keep checking searches for yourself and keep experimenting! But don't forget that Amazon remembers what you've looked for before and that will skew the data...
- oh, and good luck


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## m.a. petterson

Very nice. Thank you for sharing.


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## Moist_Tissue

The keyword stuffing is something that I would like more information on. Using as an example, I have a book with two ghosts falling in love. I did one Amazon search and found "Ghosts in love" as a search with less than 10,000 hits. Would I leave "Ghosts in love" as a separate and distinct keyword or would I add more words to it so that it becomes "Historical Southern Gothic Ghosts in Love"?


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## Donna White Glaser

Very nice, Evenstar!  I like the tip about narrowing down to more specificity in series books.


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## Jake Kerr

I need to do more research, because my key question is this: Are searches based on your keywords exact matches, full word matches, or just any of the words in the list needed to match. 

For example, if the keyword is "werewolves love," what happens if I search for

werewolves

or 

love werewolves

or

werewolves shapeshifter love

If keywords are exact match, none of these would trigger your book. If they are all word match, the second and third would trigger your book, but not the first.  If they are just single word searches, all three would trigger your book.

My fear is that keywords are exact match. So that if you put "werewolves in love" as your keyword, you'll only get results if the person types exactly "werewolves in love" in some part of the search.


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## Evenstar

Moist_Tissue said:


> The keyword stuffing is something that I would like more information on. Using as an example, I have a book with two ghosts falling in love. I did one Amazon search and found "Ghosts in love" as a search with less than 10,000 hits. Would I leave "Ghosts in love" as a separate and distinct keyword or would I add more words to it so that it becomes "Historical Southern Gothic Ghosts in Love"?


Add in more! Just keep the phrase in there.


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## Evenstar

jakedfw said:


> I need to do more research, because my key question is this: Are searches based on your keywords exact matches, full word matches, or just any of the words in the list needed to match.
> 
> For example, if the keyword is "werewolves love," what happens if I search for
> 
> werewolves
> 
> or
> 
> love werewolves
> 
> or
> 
> werewolves shapeshifter love
> 
> If keywords are exact match, none of these would trigger your book. If they are all word match, the second and third would trigger your book, but not the first. If they are just single word searches, all three would trigger your book.
> 
> My fear is that keywords are exact match. So that if you put "werewolves in love" as your keyword, you'll only get results if the person types exactly "werewolves in love" in some part of the search.


No, not exact matches, you should be good with the combinations, but I secretly suspect that the closer you get to the exact match the closer to the top you appear. It's a juggling act. Which is why I use repetition as well, use really popular words and phrases again and again mixed up with other terms that way you have the most chance of hitting the exact search typed in, but even if you don't you should still be close.


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## cblewgolf

Great post and something to think about.  I've read about the importance of keywords here but didn't really know what to do.  I use "suspense, thriller, conspiracy theory" but I guess that would result in hundreds of thousands of results.


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## Evenstar

cblewgolf said:


> Great post and something to think about. I've read about the importance of keywords here but didn't really know what to do. I use "suspense, thriller, conspiracy theory" but I guess that would result in hundreds of thousands of results.


If you are using them as three separate keywords then I would call it a waste of keyword space. But stuff them all together as just one keyword string and you are on the right track.


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## Randall Wood

This is simply awesome.


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## ElenaLinville

Oh, very useful post! Thank you so much for taking the time to write it. Bookmarked for future reference.


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## Becca Mills

Do we know exactly how Amazon treat keyword strings, Evenstar? Your advice seems to assume that Amazon treats _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ as _("paranormal romance" or love) and (witch or werewolf or zombies or ghost or shifter)_. But if they treat the string as _"paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love," _then someone would have to search on exactly that string for your book to come up.


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## Evenstar

Becca Mills said:


> Do we know exactly how Amazon treat keyword strings, Evenstar? Your advice seems to assume that Amazon treats _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ as _("paranormal romance" or love) and (witch or werewolf or zombies or ghost or shifter)_. But if they treat the string as _"paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love," _then someone would have to search on exactly that string for your book to come up.


As far as I can tell - if someone puts in _witch and ghost love_ then my long keyword string should bing on the Amazon radar. Simply because those words are there even though not as that exact phrase, the rest of the keywords are then simply useless extras


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## DawnLee

Thank you so much for this! This is something I am learning more about daily and I need to do some more tweaking.


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## Kylo Ren

Evenstar said:


> People usually search for terms not for one word, so put terms in. If your book is about a human and an alien falling in love then try something like: _Paranormal love story book, alien romance sci-fi love, paranormal science fiction romance, fantasy ebook alien romantic fiction, non-human romance relationship alien lover._ See how I am using lots of different search terms for basically the same words? That's because you want to capture that market, you want to appear when people specify what they are looking for.


In the above example, you use paranormal, love, romance more than once. I was under the impression that once you use a word, you don't need to use it again, that when someone searches for a term, Amazon will pull from any of the words you've put in your keywords. This seems to be the case whenever I've done test searches using a combination of words that aren't necessarily in the same keyword group. Anyone else have an insight on this?


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## Jake Kerr

This makes me scratch my head, not because you are wrong Evenstar, but because it effectively means that there is no real keyword limit, despite what Amazon says about it being limited to 7. 

In other words, is this a bug that Amazon will fix someday?


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## The 13th Doctor

Evenstar said:


> As far as I can tell - if someone puts in _witch and ghost love_ then my long keyword string should bing on the Amazon radar. Simply because those words are there even though not as that exact phrase, the rest of the keywords are then simply useless extras


I typed in "Paranormal romance witch ghost zombie" and your book (Halloween Magic and Mayhem) was the first to appear on the page.

Great post, Evenstar. Previously, I've been putting in the one-word keywords but now I'm doing as you suggest and seeing what is popular but not too popular.

For instance, for my "Neighbourhood Witch" book, I tried typing in Paranormal Romance Cursed Witch into Amazon.com/Kindle Store and only 36 results show up. Is this too few?


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## Kylo Ren

jakedfw said:


> This makes me scratch my head, not because you are wrong Evenstar, but because it effectively means that there is no real keyword limit, despite what Amazon says about it being limited to 7.
> 
> In other words, is this a bug that Amazon will fix someday?


I don't think so. Just think of it as seven word sets, rather than keywords.


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## Lucian

I had no idea how much I needed to read this post until I read it.

Thank you very much, Evenstar.


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## Claire Frank

Lots of food for thought here - thanks for taking the time to post this, Evenstar!

My question is this: when it comes to using keywords to getting into categories, do you think you can use keyword stuffing AND still get into the right (smaller) categories if the keyword is part of a string of keywords?

For example: to get into Fantasy>Swords and Sorcery, you need to use keywords like sword, sorcery, magic and quest. Could you stuff those into one and still get into the right category? So instead of using those as separate keywords, is putting a keyword that is "sword sorcery magic quest," going to still get you into the Swords and Sorcery category? Does anyone know?


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## ruecole

Yup, this pretty much sums up my experience, too. 

Key phrases instead of keywords. Amazon searches on any and all of them. If you've got "alien teen shifter romance ebook" and "romantic science fiction paranormal kindle book for teens" as two of your keywords and someone searches "alien shifter teen book" your book should come up in the search.

Also category keywords don't need to be isolated to work. So "funny dog Romantic comedy ebook" will still get you into the romantic comedy category.

Hope that helps! 

Rue


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## Keith Strohm

garam81 said:


> I typed in "Paranormal romance witch ghost zombie" and your book (Halloween Magic and Mayhem) was the first to appear on the page.


 The real question is whether or not the book appears if you just type: Paranormal romance witch

Keith


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## Moist_Tissue

It's kinda fun searching for possible keywords using the Amazon search.


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## Kylo Ren

Just thought I'd do some search tests for the heck of it. Entered "horror books for teens", and my book came up on the seventh page. What really kind of irks me, though, are all the books that come up in that search with pictures of muscled dudes in their underwear. Seriously? In "horror books for teens". Romance/erotica writers are out of control.


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## Kylo Ren

Keith Strohm said:


> The real question is whether or not the book appears if you just type: Paranormal romance witch
> 
> Keith


No question at all, I don't think. It would appear because those words are in her keywords.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Thanks for this. Bookmarking.

I typed in 'humorous book about emigration' and _But Can You Drink The Water?_ was the only one to show up . But how many readers would actively be looking for a humorous book about emigration? 'Book about emigration' brought it up as No 5.

When I tried 'book for left-handed child' _The Race _came in at No 2.


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## Lydniz

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks for this. Bookmarking.
> 
> I typed in 'humorous book about emigration' and _But Can You Drink The Water?_ was the only one to show up . But how many readers would actively be looking for a humorous book about emigration? 'Book about emigration' brought it up as No 5.


What about 'humorous travelogues'?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lydniz said:


> What about 'humorous travelogues'?


That's an idea, although it's a novel and not really a travelogue. I might give it a try and see what happens.


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## Sandra K. Williams

jakedfw said:


> This makes me scratch my head, not because you are wrong Evenstar, but because it effectively means that there is no real keyword limit, despite what Amazon says about it being limited to 7.


You're limited to 400 characters. Any words after 400 characters get cut off.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I also added 'gift idea for children' as a keyword and _The Race_ appears on the 4th of 5 pages


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## Lydniz

This thread is a good reminder to test your keywords every so often. I've just done it for mine and tweaked them a bit.


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## ruecole

Aim for the first page or two. Most readers won't browse past page 3.

Hope that helps! 

Rue


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## Lydniz

ruecole said:


> Most readers won't browse past page 3.


This is so true. I was looking for my own work and got bored if I didn't find myself by page 3. If I can't be bothered to search for myself then readers certainly won't make the effort.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lydniz said:


> This is so true. I was looking for my own work and got bored if I didn't find myself by page 3. If I can't be bothered to search for myself then readers certainly won't make the effort.


I made it to about page 15 before giving up


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## Nancy Warren

This is really helpful, thank you! I had no idea you could string words together like that. I so love the collective wisdom and sharing here.

Nancy


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## anotherpage

You also have to be careful that you are not OVERSTUFFING as amazon will clamp down on that and remember they use those keyword to determine sub categories. If you stuff tons of keywords in there that are NOTHING to do with your book, you are going to be in a heap of trouble from Amazon and probably readers.

I can see everyone running now and stuffing random useless keywords and then a month later seeing amazon remove that like they did with tagging. SLAPS HEAD!!!


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## Kylo Ren

kalel said:


> You also have to be careful that you are not OVERSTUFFING as amazon will clamp down on that and remember they use those keyword to determine sub categories. If you stuff tons of keywords in there that are NOTHING to do with your book, you are going to be in a heap of trouble from Amazon and probably readers.
> 
> I can see everyone running now and stuffing random useless keywords and then a month later seeing amazon remove that like they did with tagging. SLAPS HEAD!!!


I'd like to know if anyone has been subject to this kind of reaction from Amazon.


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## Kylo Ren

David S. said:


> It's fairly easy to test. Just type some stuff in the Amazon search box and see what comes up.
> 
> Using this string of keywords:
> 
> paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love
> 
> paranormal romance 44,523
> romance paranormal 44,499
> "paranormal romance" 22,032
> "romance paranormal" 27,391
> paranormal 73,525
> romance 330,643
> 
> witch 13,490
> werewolf 10,621
> witch werewolf 983
> werewolf witch 983
> "werewolf witch" 559
> "witch werewolf" 28
> 
> shifter 8,749
> love 176,723
> shifter love 1,545
> "shifter love" 40
> 
> witch shifter 852
> "witch shifter" 9
> 
> werewolf romance 6,451
> "werewolf romance" 1,594
> 
> Any one word will hit every book that uses that word in their keywords, and a few other places, so a lot of hits (romance).
> 
> Combine two words and the hits are dramatically reduced (paranormal romance) because it has to hit both words.
> 
> Put quotes around those two words and it has to hit both words in consecutive order ("paranormal romance" or "romance paranormal"), reducing the number of hits.
> 
> The longer the string of consecutive words the user enters, especially if they are enclosed in quotes, the smaller the number of hits. You can use this to your advantage, or it can kill you.


How do you account for the quotation marks in your keywords? And do you think a lot of people search using quotation marks?

What I think you're saying is that a person can search for a phrase using quotes and unless those words are in that exact order in my keywords, my book won't come up.


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## C. Gockel

Thank you so much for this!


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## Sever Bronny

And keep in mind, everyone, that keywords are triggered by your blurb too!


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## Evenstar

artofstu said:


> In the above example, you use paranormal, love, romance more than once. I was under the impression that once you use a word, you don't need to use it again, that when someone searches for a term, Amazon will pull from any of the words you've put in your keywords. This seems to be the case whenever I've done test searches using a combination of words that aren't necessarily in the same keyword group. Anyone else have an insight on this?


To be honest, I don't know the answer because Amazon won't tell us. So I do it anyway to hedge my bets. I would rather waste a few words and be sure of showing up than not bother repeating and then not showing up. Also I do try to mix and match words that mean the same thing, again to ensure covering all bases: EG: Romantic comedy, humorous romance, funny humor humour love romantic. That kind of thing.


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## Evenstar

jakedfw said:


> This makes me scratch my head, not because you are wrong Evenstar, but because it effectively means that there is no real keyword limit, despite what Amazon says about it being limited to 7.
> 
> In other words, is this a bug that Amazon will fix someday?


There is still a limit. You can only have so many words in each 'keyword' and only so many characters over all before it cuts you off. I find about five or six words per 'keyword' to be about right.


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## Evenstar

garam81 said:


> I typed in "Paranormal romance witch ghost zombie" and your book (Halloween Magic and Mayhem) was the first to appear on the page.
> 
> Great post, Evenstar. Previously, I've been putting in the one-word keywords but now I'm doing as you suggest and seeing what is popular but not too popular.
> 
> For instance, for my "Neighbourhood Witch" book, I tried typing in Paranormal Romance Cursed Witch into Amazon.com/Kindle Store and only 36 results show up. Is this too few?


In my opinion it is too few. But really it is not about how many results come up but how popular the search is. Less results can be a very good thing in a niche genre, but it is more likely that it means that your search term is not used much and you probably should re-think it.

Amazon will help you with this - as you start typing in a search, it will give you popular search terms that other people use. Those are the ones you want in your keywords! (Or do as I do and have both  )


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## Evenstar

Claire Frank said:


> Lots of food for thought here - thanks for taking the time to post this, Evenstar!
> 
> My question is this: when it comes to using keywords to getting into categories, do you think you can use keyword stuffing AND still get into the right (smaller) categories if the keyword is part of a string of keywords?
> 
> For example: to get into Fantasy>Swords and Sorcery, you need to use keywords like sword, sorcery, magic and quest. Could you stuff those into one and still get into the right category? So instead of using those as separate keywords, is putting a keyword that is "sword sorcery magic quest," going to still get you into the Swords and Sorcery category? Does anyone know?


No one knows for sure, but according to my research and what others have said, then yes, it should still get you into that category just so long as the term is there.


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## Kylo Ren

I don't know about you, but I think there's something strange about doing a search for a particular type of book and having the results show Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children come up within five slots of gay erotica. I feel like most people searching for "teen horror books" aren't looking for the latter. Probably. I think something's broken here.


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## Evenstar

David S. said:


> It's fairly easy to test. Just type some stuff in the Amazon search box and see what comes up.
> 
> Using this string of keywords:
> 
> paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love
> 
> paranormal romance 44,523
> romance paranormal 44,499
> "paranormal romance" 22,032
> "romance paranormal" 27,391
> paranormal 73,525
> romance 330,643
> 
> witch 13,490
> werewolf 10,621
> witch werewolf 983
> werewolf witch 983
> "werewolf witch" 559
> "witch werewolf" 28
> 
> shifter 8,749
> love 176,723
> shifter love 1,545
> "shifter love" 40
> 
> witch shifter 852
> "witch shifter" 9
> 
> werewolf romance 6,451
> "werewolf romance" 1,594
> 
> Any one word will hit every book that uses that word in their keywords, and a few other places, so a lot of hits (romance).
> 
> Combine two words and the hits are dramatically reduced (paranormal romance) because it has to hit both words.
> 
> Put quotes around those two words and it has to hit both words in consecutive order ("paranormal romance" or "romance paranormal"), reducing the number of hits.
> 
> The longer the string of consecutive words the user enters, especially if they are enclosed in quotes, the smaller the number of hits. You can use this to your advantage, or it can kill you.


And I learned something new!! Thanks David. I was unaware of being able to put quotes around phrases. I have been using a dash like first-kiss first-love to basically achieve the same thing, but I didn't know if it was effective or not, it seems to work though as I can get to my books using those search terms along side others.
I totally agree though that you need to be careful about narrowing down your categories and searches, it can certainly make you disappear, but on the other hand it is more likely to get you to the top of a particular category which will give you a boost. Just experiment!

I would also like to add that I didn't actually copy and paste my actual keywords, I just typed the post with a vague memory of what they were, so if I'm not showing up using one of the search terms I mentioned then that is why!


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## ruecole

I would be careful using quotes in my list of keywords. You could be restricting yourself too much.

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## Evenstar

kalel said:


> You also have to be careful that you are not OVERSTUFFING as amazon will clamp down on that and remember they use those keyword to determine sub categories. If you stuff tons of keywords in there that are NOTHING to do with your book, you are going to be in a heap of trouble from Amazon and probably readers.
> 
> I can see everyone running now and stuffing random useless keywords and then a month later seeing amazon remove that like they did with tagging. SLAPS HEAD!!!


Yes. It is a worry that people stuff in keywords that are not relevant to their books just to get the hits, and rather worrying that gay erotica was found on boys teen horror. But I am fairly sure that Amazon do _try_ to control it.

From my own experience: A few reviewers said The Flirting Games is quite similar to Harry Potter but without the magic. So I tried adding _Harry Potter_ to my keywords thinking I might pick up some fans of fan-fiction, I got slapped immediately in the review process. And asked to remove those words before the book would be able to pass review. I thought that was fair enough, it was just an experiment and it's good to know that Amazon are at least attempting to monitor the keywords I'm using, and are therefore (I hope) taking note of the good ones too.


----------



## Monique

Yeah, keep punctuation and other titles/authors out of your keywords.

Also, unless something has changed, keywords in your description are meaningless.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Monique said:


> Yeah, keep punctuation and other titles/authors out of your keywords.
> 
> Also, unless something has changed, keywords in your description are meaningless.


Something has changed then. I accidentally found my way into a superhero category when I used the word hero in my description. It went something like this: "Shima is a hero of great renown, and has survived many battles..."

I wrote that as part of my description, and bang, I'm in a superhero category! I didn't choose any keywords using hero. It only appears in the blurb. I knew Google and Kobo used the description for its searches, I learned that Amazon searches on titles, series titles, sub titles FIRST, but does seem to judge descriptions as well. I think they're considered of lesser importance, and the algo gives them less weight than titles, but they ARE used.


----------



## Monique

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Something has changed then. I accidentally found my way into a superhero category when I used the word hero in my description. It went something like this: "Shima is a hero of great renown, and has survived many battles..."
> 
> I wrote that as part of my description, and bang, I'm in a superhero category! I didn't choose any keywords using hero. It only appears in the blurb. I knew Google and Kobo used the description for its searches, I learned that Amazon searches on titles, series titles, sub titles FIRST, but does seem to judge descriptions as well. I think they're considered of lesser importance, and the algo gives them less weight than titles, but they ARE used.


What book is this?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Monique said:


> What book is this?


It was Operation Oracle, but like I say, my book isn't a super hero book. I changed the blurb and now have these cats (the superhero went away when I changed the blurb)

Books > Literature & Fiction
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Alien Invasion
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Exploration
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > First Contact
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Galactic Empire
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Fleet
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Marine
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Space Opera
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Alien Invasion
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > First Contact
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Galactic Empire
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Fleet
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Military > Space Marine
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Space Exploration
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Space Opera


----------



## Monique

Intersting. I think it's v possible (probable?) that keywords in the description can lead to categories, but perhaps are not searchable. For instance, Burgton should bring up your book if the description is searchable, but it doesn't.


----------



## Cherise

There's no need to include any commas at all in KDP.  

This gives you more characters for words and eliminates the worry about needing to repeat words between different commas. I heard we got 350 characters. Someone else said 400. It will say you have 6 keywords left, but just ignore that.

Createspace makes you use commas by limiting the number of words between them.


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

Cherise Kelley said:


> There's no need to include any commas at all in KDP.
> 
> This gives you more characters for words and eliminates the worry about needing to repeat words between different commas. I heard we got 350 characters. Someone else said 400. It will say you have 6 keywords left, but just ignore that.
> 
> Createspace makes you use commas by limiting the number of words between them.


I'm not sure whether I've got this - but if you don't use the commas to separate your keywords - wouldn't that just give you one long (and very specific) search string?

I thought from what was said earlier in the thread that, the more words you use in a search, the more it narrows down. And likewise with keywords?


----------



## Kylo Ren

JessieCar said:


> I'm not sure whether I've got this - but if you don't use the commas to separate your keywords - wouldn't that just give you one long (and very specific) search string?
> 
> I thought from what was said earlier in the thread that, the more words you use in a search, the more it narrows down. And likewise with keywords?


I don't think it matters what order the words are in, so it wouldn't be specific.


----------



## ruecole

David S. said:


> You definitely don't want to use quotes in your keywords, but if readers use quotes to search for your keywords, it will affect their results.


Ah, okay. Misunderstood your first post. Quotes for searches. No quotes for keywords. I can agree with that. 

Rue


----------



## ruecole

Jessie, Amazon will pull any and all keywords in any order from your list when creating search results. I still use the commas, but as Cherise says, you probably don't have to.

Rue


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

ruecole said:


> Jessie, Amazon will pull any and all keywords in any order from your list when creating search results. I still use the commas, but as Cherise says, you probably don't have to.
> 
> Rue


Thank you Rue! I was finding it hard to get my head round that.


----------



## Bob Stewart

jakedfw said:


> I need to do more research, because my key question is this: Are searches based on your keywords exact matches, full word matches, or just any of the words in the list needed to match. ...


I've tested this and it seems to me word order is irrelevant. Say you have seven extended phrases for your keywords and someone searches the last word of one and the first word of another, your book will still show up.


----------



## Scout

Wow. This thread is great. I read an entire book on keywords that wasn't as good as this thread. Bookmarked. Thanks!


----------



## Evenstar

artofstu said:


> I don't think it matters what order the words are in, so it wouldn't be specific.


Yes, this



ruecole said:


> Jessie, Amazon will pull any and all keywords in any order from your list when creating search results. I still use the commas, but as Cherise says, you probably don't have to.
> 
> Rue


Yes, and this



David S. said:


> The more words the _reader_ uses in a search, the more it narrows down. It doesn't matter how many keywords you have, unless some reader, for whatever reason, and however unlikely that might be, chooses to search for all your keywords at the same time.


Yup, this too


Bob Stewart said:


> I've tested this and it seems to me word order is irrelevant. Say you have seven extended phrases for your keywords and someone searches the last word of one and the first word of another, your book will still show up.


Very well put!


----------



## AnonWriter

Incredible helpful post, Evenstar. Thanks for uploading your brain for us.


----------



## Marina Finlayson

Claire Frank said:


> Lots of food for thought here - thanks for taking the time to post this, Evenstar!
> 
> My question is this: when it comes to using keywords to getting into categories, do you think you can use keyword stuffing AND still get into the right (smaller) categories if the keyword is part of a string of keywords?
> 
> For example: to get into Fantasy>Swords and Sorcery, you need to use keywords like sword, sorcery, magic and quest. Could you stuff those into one and still get into the right category? So instead of using those as separate keywords, is putting a keyword that is "sword sorcery magic quest," going to still get you into the Swords and Sorcery category? Does anyone know?


I got into the Swords and Sorcery category unintentionally simply by having the word "dragon" in one of my keyword phrases. I hope this won't be a problem for me, since the book is definitely not sword and sorcery and I didn't want to put it in that category! But it's full of dragons, which is why I wanted "dragon" in the key words. The keyword I used was "urban fantasy dragons". So yes, I'd say "sword sorcery magic quest" would definitely get you in there.


----------



## A past poster

Great post, Evenstar! It has given me a lot to think about. Thank you!


----------



## Claire Frank

Marina Finlayson said:


> I got into the Swords and Sorcery category unintentionally simply by having the word "dragon" in one of my keyword phrases. I hope this won't be a problem for me, since the book is definitely not sword and sorcery and I didn't want to put it in that category! But it's full of dragons, which is why I wanted "dragon" in the key words. The keyword I used was "urban fantasy dragons". So yes, I'd say "sword sorcery magic quest" would definitely get you in there.


Thanks 

From what I've seen browsing through various fantasy categories, there are a LOT of books that seem like they don't fit, or are at least a stretch, and I bet that's why. I see things like shifter romances coming up under some of the fantasy subcategories, and they don't really seem to fit there, but who knows.


----------



## AnonWriter

Yeah, I entered "myths & legends" because my story involves oracles, and I got swords and sorcery as well. I admit it's been fun (distracting!) trying out new keywords.


----------



## 75845

Thanks for this post. Due to it I redid all my books and now a search for "Pacific North West Japanese" has Seattle in Shorts sitting proudly at the top. Of course that is because I meant to type what most people do "Pacific Northwest," but the alternative spelling helped. Prior to reading this post Pacific North West was not one of my keywords.


----------



## Claire Frank

So is there any way to know what words or phrases customers use to search - as in, these more frequently than others? I seem to recall once someone saying you can find out using Google, and although it doesn't translate exactly to Amazon, it might help? Or I might have made that up in my head.


----------



## Someone

> Do we know exactly how Amazon treat keyword strings, Evenstar? Your advice seems to assume that Amazon treats paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love as ("paranormal romance" or love) and (witch or werewolf or zombies or ghost or shifter). But if they treat the string as "paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love," then someone would have to search on exactly that string for your book to come up.





> I need to do more research, because my key question is this: Are searches based on your keywords exact matches, full word matches, or just any of the words in the list needed to match.


All of the above and more - hyphens, compound words, commas, etc - is in this. 
http://www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC


----------



## Jane Killick

I clearly need to make this keywords thing my new year resolution. Many thanks psoting this.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Someone said:


> All of the above and more - hyphens, compound words, commas, etc - is in this.
> http://www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC


Thanks. Could be useful.
If anyone knows the author/authors, I spotted a couple of typos in the 'Look Inside'.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

If you type in your name on Amazon it comes up with a list of your books, and on the left side of the page it shows the categories that your books show up in and how many books you have in that category. This could help with keywords.

I've noticed that my children's books didn't show as I write them under the name Janet Hurst-Nicholson and not Jan Hurst-Nicholson. There is also a blank author page for Janet Hurst-Nicholson. I think I'll have to try to combine them  .


----------



## Anna Drake

Thanks Evenstar for a very helpful post on keywords. I started with a keyword "phrase" search and was stunned by what I found. Have updated my keywords and now hope readers use my phrases when searching.  My best to you and yours in the new year!


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

Evenstar, thank you so much for your post. I have tweaked (?!) my keywords and will see what happens. It is quite fun!

I have slightly different keywords on my three books and two short stories. Searching for "metaphysical visionary" seems to pull me up on about page 4. 

But just doing the searches seems to give some idea of how Amazon use their sub-categories.


----------



## Christine_C

artofstu said:


> Just thought I'd do some search tests for the heck of it. Entered "horror books for teens", and my book came up on the seventh page. What really kind of irks me, though, are all the books that come up in that search with pictures of muscled dudes in their underwear. Seriously? In "horror books for teens". Romance/erotica writers are out of control.


OMG you're not kidding! A lot of erotic shifter stories on there.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I tried _*'mystery book for teens' *_and this was on the first page .

http://www.amazon.com/TABOO-TASTES-Lesbian-Taboo-Bundle-ebook/dp/B00RNHPE68/ref=sr_1_9?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1420298030&sr=1-9&keywords=mystery+book+for+teens

However, when I tried_ *'teen mystery books*'_ my book came up on the first page. How on earth are we going to sort out all these permutations of keywords?


----------



## Evenstar

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I tried _*'mystery book for teens' *_and this was on the first page .
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/TABOO-TASTES-Lesbian-Taboo-Bundle-ebook/dp/B00RNHPE68/ref=sr_1_9?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1420298030&sr=1-9&keywords=mystery+book+for+teens
> 
> However, when I tried_ *'teen mystery books*'_ my book came up on the first page. How on earth are we going to sort out all these permutations of keywords?


I am very surprised by that - judging from the categories this book is in:

Books > Gay & Lesbian > Literature & Fiction > Fiction > Gay
Books > Gay & Lesbian > Literature & Fiction > Fiction > Romance
Books > Romance > Anthologies
Books > Romance > Gay Romance
Books > Romance > New Adult & College
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Gay
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Lesbian
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Short Stories
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Short Stories
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Collections & Anthologies
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Gay Romance
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > New Adult & College

I would say that the author has certainly attempted to get it in the correct categories, but yes, there must be something in her keywords that has triggered this result. It isn't the blurb either. So my guess is that she must have put in the word "teen" in some context as well as the word "mystery" in a different context without realising it would link together and come up on a search for Nancy Drew types!

Just another example of how careful we should all be about getting our keywords right!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

*Animal Adventure story for children* brought up 

http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Paranormal-Werebear-Erotic-Romance-ebook/dp/B00RD8BSJ4/ref=sr_1_8?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1420301988&sr=1-8&keywords=animal+adventure+story+for+children

I guess the werebear was the animal. 

Don't let your children browse for books 

What is particularly annoying is that this book has no reviews, but my books, that do have reviews, don't show up


----------



## Kylo Ren

Evenstar said:


> I am very surprised by that - judging from the categories this book is in:
> 
> Books > Gay & Lesbian > Literature & Fiction > Fiction > Gay
> Books > Gay & Lesbian > Literature & Fiction > Fiction > Romance
> Books > Romance > Anthologies
> Books > Romance > Gay Romance
> Books > Romance > New Adult & College
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Gay
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Lesbian
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Gay & Lesbian > Short Stories
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Short Stories
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Collections & Anthologies
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Gay Romance
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > New Adult & College
> 
> I would say that the author has certainly attempted to get it in the correct categories, but yes, there must be something in her keywords that has triggered this result. It isn't the blurb either. So my guess is that she must have put in the word "teen" in some context as well as the word "mystery" in a different context without realising it would link together and come up on a search for Nancy Drew types!
> 
> Just another example of how careful we should all be about getting our keywords right!


This is what I'm talking about. I kind of feel like these explicit erotica books should be on a separate part of the site where people who are looking for this kind of stuff can go and search for it there. I guess that's against the fair spirit of things, but whatever. Someone who's looking for a book like mine might not be willing to browse through several pages of gay erotica (with very risqué covers) to find my book.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

This has been quite an eye-opener. I can't seem to find my _Leon Chameleon PI_ books on any lists. No wonder I sell hardly any. Going to have to spend some time on different keywords


----------



## katrina46

Let me ask you this. I write erotica, menage. I can't ever seem to show up in menage. For keywords I use menage, bisexual, Lesbian, LGBT and M/F/F. I always show up as lesbian romance. What am I doing wrong? I wouldn't even use Lesbian or LGBT, except it's the lesbian chart I always wind up on, so I figure I must have a small lesbian following, but still, I'd like to be more prominent in menage.


----------



## Becca Mills

Evenstar and David S., thanks for the explanations (and the testing). I was really not understanding the way keywords worked. I thought every term would only work as a specific search string (like, if you put in _urban fantasy werewolf witch gods_ as one keyword, a shopper would have to search for exactly those five words in exactly that order for the keyword to generate a hit). If this is not the case, then I don't see any reason not to do what Cherise suggests -- leave out the commas entirely and just put in as many applicable words as you can. No commas = six extra characters.

Does anyone know of any reason to use commas?

Does anyone know if order of terms makes a difference?


----------



## Kylo Ren

Becca Mills said:


> Evenstar and David S., thanks for the explanations (and the testing). I was really not understanding the way keywords worked. I thought every term would only work as a specific search string (like, if you put in _urban fantasy werewolf witch gods_ as one keyword, a shopper would have to search for exactly those five words in exactly that order for the keyword to generate a hit). If this is not the case, then I don't see any reason not to do what Cherise suggests -- leave out the commas entirely and just put in as many applicable words as you can. No commas = six extra characters.
> 
> Does anyone know of any reason to use commas?
> 
> Does anyone know if order of terms makes a difference?


I may be wrong and probably am, but you may have a limited number of characters per string. Otherwise, yeah, why would you need commas at all. There's got to be a reason for them, right?


----------



## Reaper

Terrific post, and very informative discussion. Cheers folks!


----------



## Claire Frank

So I did a bit of experimenting, and thought I'd show a quick example of what I found with my keywords, for what it's worth...

I changed one of my keywords to strong female protagonist. When I search within fantasy (because I'm tiny and I don't think my book will show up if I don't at least start in the overall genre), and search for the exact words 'strong female protagonist', my book comes up on the first page (here's hoping customers are actually using that term). But, using just strong female puts me on page 3 of the search results, and using strong female lead doesn't work at all (at least, it doesn't show up in the first 10 pages and I quit looking after that). 

So based on my super scientific experiment of one, I get better placement when the search term is exact, a bit of placement when the search term contains some of the words, and I get buried with other versions of the term that mean the same thing, even though two of the words are the same.

I'm just messing around with it to see what happens and figured I'd share what I noticed, FWIW.


----------



## Becca Mills

Interesting, Claire ... that's helpful! It suggests to me that if you want searches on _urban fantasy_ and _contemporary fantasy_ to return your book, you'd be better off with _urban fantasy contemporary fantasy_ as a keyword than _urban contemporary fantasy_, so that the order of your words is closer to what people might actually type.

I wonder about plurals. Will searches on _dragon_ return books with the keyword _dragons_?


----------



## Kylo Ren

Claire Frank said:


> So I did a bit of experimenting, and thought I'd show a quick example of what I found with my keywords, for what it's worth...
> 
> I changed one of my keywords to strong female protagonist. When I search within fantasy (because I'm tiny and I don't think my book will show up if I don't at least start in the overall genre), and search for the exact words 'strong female protagonist', my book comes up on the first page (here's hoping customers are actually using that term). But, using just strong female puts me on page 3 of the search results, and using strong female lead doesn't work at all (at least, it doesn't show up in the first 10 pages and I quit looking after that).
> 
> So based on my super scientific experiment of one, I get better placement when the search term is exact, a bit of placement when the search term contains some of the words, and I get buried with other versions of the term that mean the same thing, even though two of the words are the same.
> 
> I'm just messing around with it to see what happens and figured I'd share what I noticed, FWIW.


Strong female protagonist isn't a popular search term. You can tell this because, when you start to type in the word "strong," it gives you a list of the most popular search terms that start with the word strong. Then when you type in female after that, you can see that "strong female protagonist" doesn't even come up. The first search term? Strong female lead. And that one has less than 900 books. So, generally speaking, strong female anything isn't an extremely popular search term, and it's unlikely many people will search using the phrase strong female protagonist. But you should definitely make your search term "strong female lead" so your book will come up when someone types in that.


----------



## Claire Frank

artofstu said:


> Strong female protagonist isn't a popular search term. You can tell this because, when you start to type in the word "strong," it gives you a list of the most popular search terms that start with the word strong. Then when you type in female after that, you can see that "strong female protagonist" doesn't even come up. The first search term? Strong female lead. And that one has less than 900 books. So, generally speaking, strong female anything isn't an extremely popular search term, and it's unlikely many people will search using the phrase strong female protagonist. But you should definitely make your search term "strong female lead" so your book will come up when someone types in that.


Thanks. I thought it did come up as a suggested search term, which is why I gave it shot to see what would happen - but it was late last night, so hey, who knows.


----------



## Kylo Ren

Claire Frank said:


> Thanks. I thought it did come up as a suggested search term, which is why I gave it shot to see what would happen - but it was late last night, so hey, who knows.


They do change around sometimes.


----------



## Becca Mills

Becca Mills said:


> I wonder about plurals. Will searches on _dragon_ return books with the keyword _dragons_?


Tested this out. Simply plurals don't seem to matter (_dragon_ and _dragons_ return the same number of results). Things get stickier with more divergent spellings (like _fairy, fairies, faery, faerie, faeries, fae_).


----------



## Anne Pottinger

Excellent, thought provoking post. I've already done some research and changed my keywords completely. Following through on this, it could provide a good opportunity to carry out a lot of testing and eventually settle on the best performing list. Thanks again . . .


----------



## hardnutt

Very helpful post, Evenstar. Thank you. As one who has struggled with keywords and stared in awe at authors who manage to get their books into TEN categories, I always assumed Amazon was just sabotaging me.

I'm testing one book to see how many categories the Big A puts me in. If it's a lot, I'll go through the rest like greased lightning.


----------



## RuthNestvold

I learned about keyword stuffing about two months ago and started changing the keywords of my books -- but this is even more info than I had before, thanks! I think I will do some further refining.  

But for those who need any further success stories, once I started creating my keywords using the search function on Amazon, I've found that my sales after a promotion have a much longer tail. I used to rely on my books being visible in their categories, but they can drop out of those fairly quickly after a promotion. Basing keywords on searches, I continue to get fairly regular sales even weeks after the bump from a promotion. 

But now I'm off to stuff my keywords a little more.


----------



## Claire Frank

Question, using my potential keywords as an example -

If I want to show up when people search for _fantasy adventure quest_, which is a suggested search term, am I better off using those specific words, or stuffing the keyword with something like _fantasy action adventure quest thriller_ because I want all those words somewhere in my keywords?

If I do that (fantasy action adventure quest thriller), will I show up if people search for just 
fantasy quest
fantasy action adventure
action adventure quest
And so forth
In other words, I'm wondering if keyword stuffing (assuming they're relevant to your genre) dilutes the effectiveness of the search terms because Amazon shows specific hits first, then hits that include some of the words.

Using Evenstar's initial example, she uses the "stuffed" keyword _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ and says she'll show up with any combo of those terms. I searched for zombie romance (both words in the stuffed keyword) and Halloween Magic and Mayhem doesn't come up until page 8. So it's there, but not high. Granted, that isn't really the search she's going for first, as zombie romance doesn't describe the book exactly. So I searched for _witch romance_ and I don't find it in the first 15 pages (maybe I missed it?). Would the book show up if the keyword was just _witch romance_, rather than the longer stuffed keyword?

I'm not trying to disagree with Evenstar at all! This is a great thread. I'm just trying to drill down to see if we can determine more about the effectiveness of different keyword strategies.


----------



## Kylo Ren

Claire Frank said:


> Question, using my potential keywords as an example -
> 
> If I want to show up when people search for _fantasy adventure quest_, which is a suggested search term, am I better off using those specific words, or stuffing the keyword with something like _fantasy action adventure quest thriller_ because I want all those words somewhere in my keywords?
> 
> If I do that (fantasy action adventure quest thriller), will I show up if people search for just
> fantasy quest
> fantasy action adventure
> action adventure quest
> And so forth
> In other words, I'm wondering if keyword stuffing (assuming they're relevant to your genre) dilutes the effectiveness of the search terms because Amazon shows specific hits first, then hits that include some of the words.
> 
> Using Evenstar's initial example, she uses the "stuffed" keyword _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ and says she'll show up with any combo of those terms. I searched for zombie romance (both words in the stuffed keyword) and Halloween Magic and Mayhem doesn't come up until page 8. So it's there, but not high. Granted, that isn't really the search she's going for first, as zombie romance doesn't describe the book exactly. So I searched for _witch romance_ and I don't find it in the first 15 pages (maybe I missed it?). Would the book show up if the keyword was just _witch romance_, rather than the longer stuffed keyword?
> 
> I'm not trying to disagree with Evenstar at all! This is a great thread. I'm just trying to drill down to see if we can determine more about the effectiveness of different keyword strategies.


I think where you fall on any given search term results depends on your rank. But to answer your first question, I don't think putting the specific desired search term helps you in any way. But really who knows? It's one of those things that is a secret, and I guess Amazon's not telling. If you use the expanded string of terms, your bill will show up in the results of all those possible search terms you listed. But how many results show up in a list is determined, I think, by how many books have relevant keywords and then sorted by order of overall rank. Maybe?

It's like a particular field of science. We know some things that are true, but we don't really know how everything works.


----------



## Claire Frank

artofstu said:


> It's like a particular field of science. We know some things that are true, but we don't really know how everything works.


Right? I guess if it were all straightforward, it would be easy. 

This is great though, because regardless of the tiny specifics, I think I was under-utilizing my keywords, so I'm making some changes and we'll see if it helps a little .


----------



## Kylo Ren

Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


----------



## Evenstar

My theory on commas is, and this is JUST a theory, that by grouping words together you are score slightly higher on the hit list. So if they are grouped as three of the five words like, _paranormal shifter romance_, and were part of a string of five words that were, _paranormal romance werewolves shifter wolf_, then you would be picked first over a string that contained, _paranormal romance PNR werewolf romantic shifter love wolf full moon turned alpha wolves kissing_. But it is pure speculation. It may make no difference at all...


----------



## Evenstar

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> This has been quite an eye-opener. I can't seem to find my _Leon Chameleon PI_ books on any lists. No wonder I sell hardly any. Going to have to spend some time on different keywords


Uh, Jan, you do realise that people searching for the term PI are probably looking for something VERY different?

This reminds me of how hilarious I find my in-laws, it seems to me that every week they have a DP with certain friends or neighbours, "Yes, we had Martin and Judith round for a DP." I snigger in an immature way while my husband kicks me under the table. But they are talking about dinner parties, my mind is obviously considerably closer to the gutter.


----------



## Evenstar

katrina46 said:


> Let me ask you this. I write erotica, menage. I can't ever seem to show up in menage. For keywords I use menage, bisexual, Lesbian, LGBT and M/F/F. I always show up as lesbian romance. What am I doing wrong? I wouldn't even use Lesbian or LGBT, except it's the lesbian chart I always wind up on, so I figure I must have a small lesbian following, but still, I'd like to be more prominent in menage.


Have you tried stuffing with all the other terms people might search for like: threesome three way two men women group orgy gangbang, that kind of thing?


----------



## Evenstar

Claire Frank said:


> So I did a bit of experimenting, and thought I'd show a quick example of what I found with my keywords, for what it's worth...
> 
> I changed one of my keywords to strong female protagonist. When I search within fantasy (because I'm tiny and I don't think my book will show up if I don't at least start in the overall genre), and search for the exact words 'strong female protagonist', my book comes up on the first page (here's hoping customers are actually using that term). But, using just strong female puts me on page 3 of the search results, and using strong female lead doesn't work at all (at least, it doesn't show up in the first 10 pages and I quit looking after that).
> 
> So based on my super scientific experiment of one, I get better placement when the search term is exact, a bit of placement when the search term contains some of the words, and I get buried with other versions of the term that mean the same thing, even though two of the words are the same.
> 
> I'm just messing around with it to see what happens and figured I'd share what I noticed, FWIW.


This is exactly the excellent type of research that I would encourage. Playing around in this way will lead you to the golden ticket. 
But you need to be cautious about putting in a term you would search for and then searching for it, because that is no guarantee at all that other people will do the same search. You need to think really carefully about what the "popular" searches will be for that genre and for people who are looking for a strong female protag. Because I agree with the others that this is probably not a popular search and will therefore not help you even though it moves you to the top of the listing for that term.
Something like Feisty Females will probably get you a lot more hits than strong female protagonist, for example.


----------



## Evenstar

Claire Frank said:


> Question, using my potential keywords as an example -
> 
> If I want to show up when people search for _fantasy adventure quest_, which is a suggested search term, am I better off using those specific words, or stuffing the keyword with something like _fantasy action adventure quest thriller_ because I want all those words somewhere in my keywords?
> 
> If I do that (fantasy action adventure quest thriller), will I show up if people search for just
> fantasy quest
> fantasy action adventure
> action adventure quest
> And so forth
> In other words, I'm wondering if keyword stuffing (assuming they're relevant to your genre) dilutes the effectiveness of the search terms because Amazon shows specific hits first, then hits that include some of the words.
> 
> Using Evenstar's initial example, she uses the "stuffed" keyword _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ and says she'll show up with any combo of those terms. I searched for zombie romance (both words in the stuffed keyword) and Halloween Magic and Mayhem doesn't come up until page 8. So it's there, but not high. Granted, that isn't really the search she's going for first, as zombie romance doesn't describe the book exactly. So I searched for _witch romance_ and I don't find it in the first 15 pages (maybe I missed it?). Would the book show up if the keyword was just _witch romance_, rather than the longer stuffed keyword?
> 
> I'm not trying to disagree with Evenstar at all! This is a great thread. I'm just trying to drill down to see if we can determine more about the effectiveness of different keyword strategies.


What you have found is a great example of what I call "getting lost in the noise." I have no way of getting my book to show up first in the listing with a term that hundreds of others are using. If someone simply types in Paranormal Romance then they are going to get thousands of hits and we poor authors have no way of boosting ourselves to the top of those hits except by being popular already. This only works when the search terms are more specific. But when they are then you want to be on the first page if at all possible! You want your book to be the one that comes up the moment that someone types in something more specific that definitely relates to your book. That's basically the most we can do. But do it well and you will show up and you will get a lot more sales from those people who are absolutely looking for a book just like yours. When they look you want to be found!


----------



## Evenstar

artofstu said:


> I think where you fall on any given search term results depends on your rank. But to answer your first question, I don't think putting the specific desired search term helps you in any way. But really who knows? It's one of those things that is a secret, and I guess Amazon's not telling. If you use the expanded string of terms, your bill will show up in the results of all those possible search terms you listed. But how many results show up in a list is determined, I think, by how many books have relevant keywords and then sorted by order of overall rank. Maybe?
> 
> It's like a particular field of science. We know some things that are true, but we don't really know how everything works.


Yes, I agree with all that


----------



## RuthNestvold

artofstu said:


> Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


I don't agree. I know I search for books via the Amazon search function rather than through categories, and since I've started changing my keywords to optimize them for potential reader search terms, my sales have picked up dramatically.

YMMV. For me it works. And today I changed keywords for another half dozen books. I have made notes and I will report back.


----------



## Evenstar

artofstu said:


> Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


I see pretty instant effectiveness. People clearly are searching for books they like using keywords or terms. Just the other day I searched for myself for "teen romantic comedy" not because it had anything to do with my own books but because I fancied reading one. Usually when you get your keywords right you see an increase in sales.

Then Amazon changes all it's algorithms and it stops working for you. Time to go and change them again!


----------



## Claire Frank

Evenstar said:


> What you have found is a great example of what I call "getting lost in the noise." I have no way of getting my book to show up first in the listing with a term that hundreds of others are using. If someone simply types in Paranormal Romance then they are going to get thousands of hits and we poor authors have no way of boosting ourselves to the top of those hits except by being popular already. This only works when the search terms are more specific. But when they are then you want to be on the first page if at all possible! You want your book to be the one that comes up the moment that someone types in something more specific that definitely relates to your book. That's basically the most we can do. But do it well and you will show up and you will get a lot more sales from those people who are absolutely looking for a book just like yours. When they look you want to be found!


Makes sense. Thanks!


----------



## Kylo Ren

Evenstar said:


> I see pretty instant effectiveness. People clearly are searching for books they like using keywords or terms. Just the other day I searched for myself for "teen romantic comedy" not because it had anything to do with my own books but because I fancied reading one. Usually when you get your keywords right you see an increase in sales.
> 
> Then Amazon changes all it's algorithms and it stops working for you. Time to go and change them again!


But what was your ranking before the change? My theory is that, if you're ranked 200k plus, keyword optimization isn't going to get you any more noticed. Because say you come up in a particular search, you're still the thousandth book on that list. People aren't scrolling that far back. You have to be at the front. You have to have a good rank to begin with.


----------



## Christine_C

artofstu said:


> Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


I think I usually go for "also boughts" That's where the real magic happens. Now I just need to buy up 10,000 copies of my own book along with A Discovery of Witches.


----------



## busywoman

artofstu said:


> Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


I search several ways, but searching for specific terms has become my top way of searching. Here's why.

I used to search by scrolling through the top 100 paid and free lists, but more and more I find the results completely irrelevant, overrun with very short books (especially the "free" lists), or the same books every week. Amazon has basically destroyed the usefulness of their top 100 lists, unless you're new to Amazon or to the category. IMHO.

And I scroll through "also boughts" or by finding one author whose books I like and buying other books.

But if you read a lot (as I do) you very quickly outgrow those methods because you've read all the books you find. That's where searching for specific terms on Amazon becomes invaluable.

I also search Google for top lists and book reviews of certain types of books. That can lead to great recommendations, I've found. Once I find something that looks interesting, I click through to Amazon and buy it.


----------



## Michelle Lowery

Let me start by admitting I haven't read through all five pages of posts here, so please forgive me if anyone has already posted something similar. 

Let's assume for a moment that Amazon's search algorithms are similar to those of Google. In principle, they are, although they're created to function differently and search in a different context.

What some of these posts have referred to as "keyword stuffing" are actually long tail keywords. Here's how it works for Google and other search engines:

Say you have a website that sells baking pans. Obviously, you want the single keyphrase "baking pans" to appear in your content and your meta data. However, people don't always search for single keywords, and they don't search just for things--they search for things with a purpose in mind. They also search for more natural terms, and even type out actual questions. (This is what Google's Hummingbird algorithm update addressed).

So someone might search for "What kind of baking pan do I use to make a fruit tart?" It's unlikely you'll have that exact question anywhere on your site unless you have amazing foresight, or someone used your site search for that question, allowing you to see it in Google Analytics, and you made it an FAQ, but I digress.

However, you may have something like "This tart pan is ideal for making fruit tarts." It's not an exact match for the search term(s), but it has enough of the same words placed close enough to each other, and--this is important--the right context that, theoretically, when someone searches with that question, your tart pan page will show up (provided you've done some other optimization as well).

When people search on Amazon, it's less likely that they will search with actual questions like, "What story has a witch and a werewolf falling in love with each other?" They are more likely to search for something like "werewolf witch love story." That can be one of your long tail keywords. Another could be "paranormal love story between witch and werewolf." Again, it has enough of the same words close enough together to--theoretically--appear in results when that person searches for "werewolf witch love story," and to appear if and when someone also throws "paranormal" into the mix.

Theoretically, your book would also show up if someone were to search for "werewolf love story" without "witch" as one of their search terms.

By treating each long tail keyword as its own entity, you can repeat words among them. The key is to maintain relevance between the keywords you choose and your story. In search, relevance is everything. As one poster mentioned, trying to cannibalize other keywords simply to get your book to show up in searches that are not relevant to your story may work for a little while, but Amazon will adjust its algorithm to counter that tactic, and you may find your book dropped from the results it initially did well in. Better to choose a long-term strategy than a temporary tactic.

More complex long tail keywords are going to be more effective than short "stuffed" keyphrases like "werewolf love," "witch love," werewolf witch love," and so on.

Here are a couple of resources that discuss long tail keywords: http://moz.com/beginners-guide-to-seo/keyword-research
and search relevance: http://www.bloggerheads.com/search-engine-optimisation/

While they're geared more toward Internet search engines rather than Amazon, I think they can still be helpful based on the principle of how search algorithms work regardless of where they're searching.


----------



## Cherise

Claire Frank said:


> Question, using my potential keywords as an example -
> 
> If I want to show up when people search for _fantasy adventure quest_, which is a suggested search term, am I better off using those specific words, or stuffing the keyword with something like _fantasy action adventure quest thriller_ because I want all those words somewhere in my keywords?
> 
> If I do that (fantasy action adventure quest thriller), will I show up if people search for just
> fantasy quest
> fantasy action adventure
> action adventure quest
> And so forth
> In other words, I'm wondering if keyword stuffing (assuming they're relevant to your genre) dilutes the effectiveness of the search terms because Amazon shows specific hits first, then hits that include some of the words.
> 
> Using Evenstar's initial example, she uses the "stuffed" keyword _paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love_ and says she'll show up with any combo of those terms. I searched for zombie romance (both words in the stuffed keyword) and Halloween Magic and Mayhem doesn't come up until page 8. So it's there, but not high. Granted, that isn't really the search she's going for first, as zombie romance doesn't describe the book exactly. So I searched for _witch romance_ and I don't find it in the first 15 pages (maybe I missed it?). Would the book show up if the keyword was just _witch romance_, rather than the longer stuffed keyword?
> 
> I'm not trying to disagree with Evenstar at all! This is a great thread. I'm just trying to drill down to see if we can determine more about the effectiveness of different keyword strategies.


Do them all:

fantasy adventure quest fantasy quest fantasy action adventure action adventure quest ...


----------



## Jake Kerr

Part of the trouble is that we have one tool (keywords) that is used for two very different functions (category placement and search results). Keyword stuffing seems very effective at pinpointing category placement. This is incredibly important at getting your book in top 100 categories where it fits.

EXAMPLE: My novelette "The Old Equations" is consistently in the top 100 of the Kindle Short Reads 90 minute chart. Good, right? But it never appeared anywhere else. I went in and added space exploration and colonization (both of which are relevant to the story), and it now charts on those charts. Keywords=awesome.

Okay, but what about searches? That's the question I think we are all trying to figure out. Will this:

werewolf shifter teen romance love

score well with a search like this:

werewolf romance

Or will it do better on something like this:

teen romance

The answer is how the words in a stuffed keyword are assessed by the Amazon search engine. How is their placement and order used. If they are all just added to a pot then keyword stuffing is great as is. But if word order matters, then this keyword stuffing:

werewolf romance shifter teen love

would be great for this search:

werewolf romance

but not so good for this search:

teen romance

So that is what I think needs to be tested. Because we need to answer these questions:

*Do the order of the words matter?
Does the primacy (words near front vs. words near back) of stuff keywords matter?*

IF order matters (and my instincts tell me it does), then stuffed keywords will require a lot of repetition to maximize search. For example, if you want to score well in "teen romance" and "werewolf romance" then you would need:

teen romance werewolf romance love shifter romance

etc. etc. as your keyword.

Does anyone have any answers to the above two bolded questions?


----------



## Moist_Tissue

While we are on the subject of keywords, check your categories at Amazon. It looks like they re-ordered and added categories. Under the US Fiction, they have added Native American Fiction which I do not recall ever seeing before. They also removed the Gothic category and merged it the Romantic Period.


----------



## Someone

> fantasy adventure quest fantasy quest fantasy action adventure action adventure quest


Don't repeat quest; you don't have to so it wastes characters


----------



## Sever Bronny

Hmm, from my understanding, if you place your book in the fantasy genre, you do NOT need to use the word fantasy in your keywords. In fact, any keyword already in your blurb (which gains priority over keywords if I recall correctly) does not need to be repeated.

Just checked: I do NOT have the word "fantasy" in any of my keywords, however it IS in my blurb.


----------



## Someone

I'll out myself
I did the Rock The Keywords "book" after doing tons of research, sharing it, and it helping a lot of authors.
I'll use a Select free day and make it free for you non-Ku'ers. I'll run it free for a day to be helpful but then I'll probably put it back to paid because I only get 5 in 90 days ( see talk about original purpose below ) 
It talks all about punctuation, repeating words, hyphens, etc.

I KNOW there are errors - typos - in it but I/we don't care. Maybe I/we should but I don't now. The errors don't interfere with the purpose or the original intent of putting it on Amazon. They also don't change what we have discovered and if people want to think they do, their loss not ours. It wasn't really ever put up to sell. The purpose when it was published was to use Amazon and KU as a server - to have it all together and only a link away for whoever whenever. When the purpose is no longer needed - the discussion dies off - the price to 2.99 and let it sit in case another time came up. Like now,  Because I yap on other forums, I gotta be careful about using the 5 free days. 
Shhh but using Amazon as basically a server saves the time to type a long post about what a group of people, who studied and studied this by experimenting and looking at results, and/or send an email. I thought, "heck, I'll just make into what looks like a book. By not hosting it on one of my sites, I can keep my pen names anonymous and still enjoy sharing the info via a link".
We ran experiment after experiment using a lot of software like Kindle Samurai and stuff. ( I don't know why but I love the word stuff, LOL )

I see someone bought it- return it and grab it free.
I'm going in right now to make it free; hopefully it won't take too long ( going to be free on the 4th )
Here's the link. I'm going into my bookshelf now. 
www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC

*EDIT - For those without KU I was able to schedule a freebie for the 4th so it will go free at midnight*


----------



## Monique

Someone said:


> I'll out myself
> I did the Rock The Keywords "book" after doing tons of research, sharing it, and it helping a lot of authors.
> 
> ...snip.


Is one of the keyword techniques you suggest the one you employ on that book page by using keywords as contributors?


----------



## Sever Bronny

Someone said:


> I'll out myself
> I did the Rock The Keywords "book" after doing tons of research, sharing it, and it helping a lot of authors.
> I'll use a Select free day and make it free for ya - I'll run it free for a day to be helpful but then I'll probably put it back to paid because I only get 5 in 90 days ( see talk about original purpose below )
> It talks all about punctuation, repeating words, hyphens, etc.
> 
> I KNOW there are errors - typos - in it but I/we don't care. Maybe I/we should but I don't now. The errors don't interfere with the purpose or the original intent of putting it on Amazon. They also don't change what we have discovered and if people want to think they do, their loss not ours. It wasn't really ever put up to sell. The purpose when it was published was to use Amazon and KU as a server - to have it all together and only a link away for whoever whenever. When the purpose is no longer needed - the discussion dies off - the price to 2.99 and let it sit in case another time came up. Like now,  Because I yap on other forums, I gotta be careful about using the 5 free days.
> Shhh but using Amazon as basically a server saves the time to type a long post about what a group of people, who studied and studied this by experimenting and looking at results, and/or send an email. I thought, "heck, I'll just make into what looks like a book. By not hosting it on one of my sites, I can keep my pen names anonymous and still enjoy sharing the info via a link"
> 
> I see someone bought it- return it and grab it free.
> I'm going in right now to make it free; hopefully it won't take too long ( going to be free on the 4th )
> Here's the link. I'm going into my bookshelf now.
> www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC
> 
> *EDIT - For those without KU I was able to schedule a freebie for the 4th so it will go free at midnight*


You're amazing, thank you  

You wouldn't happen to be the one who made an awesome thread a while back on the subject, the thread I've been trying to track down for over a month now? The thread heavily influenced my choices of keywords and how to structure them, including blurb use.

P.S. Will it be available free in Canada?


----------



## Someone

No Monique. I should have said something about that but I didn't. My bad.
The material only discusses how to input stuff into the keyword box. Just a bunch of pages about that one little box in the KDP bookshelf. All legit stuff - there's no "hey put best selling author" or any of that crap. I push and test the limits but I apply common courtesy and respect for other authors when I do.

TBH the contributor stuff in the listing is actually due to another current experiment we are doing ( and basically now useless because "don't link the book anywhere" and test this kinda thing.


----------



## Monique

Someone said:


> No Monique
> It only discusses how to input stuff into the keyword box
> 
> TBH the contributor stuff in the listing is actually due to another current experiment we are doing ( and basically now useless because "don't link the book anywhere" and test this kinda thing.


Ah. Good.


----------



## Someone

Sever
Ohhh. I don't know how Canada works. Just to be sure you can get it, PM and I'll send you the raw file. 
Others reading this, please don't ask for me to send you the raw file if you can easily get it free. The whole reason it is up on AMZ is to save myself from all those kind of emails. So please, if you want it and you can get it free from AMZ, grab it free. Please.


----------



## derekneville

I just wanted to throw a quick thank you to Evenstar for this post. It's definitely helped me out a lot!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Evenstar said:


> Uh, Jan, you do realise that people searching for the term PI are probably looking for something VERY different?


Er, no I didn't realise this . I've no idea what PI stands for other than Private Investigator . Now I'm going to have to be more careful when I give talks to the school children and ask them if they know what PI stands for


----------



## hardnutt

Evenstar,

Thank you! As an experiment, I put my free first in series through the keyword test and the downloads increased threefold. Plus the paid downloads of other books increased by half. Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the sales graph on KDP.

Will now go through and change the keywords for my other books.

Thanks again. You're a treasure.


----------



## hardnutt

Someone,

And thank you for the free book. I've just downloaded it and will get my eyeballs on it immediately!


----------



## 75845

artofstu said:


> But what was your ranking before the change? My theory is that, if you're ranked 200k plus, keyword optimization isn't going to get you any more noticed. Because say you come up in a particular search, you're still the thousandth book on that list. People aren't scrolling that far back. You have to be at the front. You have to have a good rank to begin with.


Umm, no. To repeat the example of the change I made due to this thread: by misspelling Pacific Northwest as Pacific North West a search on Pacific North West Native American has my 800k ranked booked on No.3 on the 1st page. Amazon's search system will offer to correct the search to Pacific Northwest in which case they will not find it at all and if they did I probably would be on the 5th page. I could correct my misspelling or I could bank on getting more notice if someone else misspells Pacific Northwest. Of course I could go back and add northwest to north west and probably will.

TL/DR if your ranking is low there is mileage to be gained from obscure terms or incorrect spelling. So don't be a slave to the Amazon search suggestions if you are low ranked.


----------



## Daniel Cane

artofstu said:


> Despite all this talk about maximizing keywords, I still wonder how useful it is. Meaning, do people really shop for books this way? I know I don't (but I'm just one person). I think being in the top 100 of a category is useful, but I have to wonder about search terms. Changing my keywords really had little effect on my sales, but I am small potatoes.


I almost always search by keywords. Usually I will go to the category I want first and then search.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Sever Bronny said:


> In fact, any keyword already in your blurb (which gains priority over keywords if I recall correctly) does not need to be repeated.


So, if I add a couple of phrases to the blurb it will work better than making them keyword phrases?


----------



## Evenstar

derekneville said:


> I just wanted to throw a quick thank you to Evenstar for this post. It's definitely helped me out a lot!


You're very welcome, that was why I did it



hardnutt said:


> Evenstar,
> 
> Thank you! As an experiment, I put my free first in series through the keyword test and the downloads increased threefold. Plus the paid downloads of other books increased by half. Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the sales graph on KDP.
> 
> Will now go through and change the keywords for my other books.
> 
> Thanks again. You're a treasure.


I'm so pleased!! That's what we are all aiming for. Now if I could repeat that level of success on my own books ... lol



Sever Bronny said:


> Hmm, from my understanding, if you place your book in the fantasy genre, you do NOT need to use the word fantasy in your keywords. In fact, any keyword already in your blurb (which gains priority over keywords if I recall correctly) does not need to be repeated.
> 
> Just checked: I do NOT have the word "fantasy" in any of my keywords, however it IS in my blurb.





Sever Bronny said:


> Hmm, from my understanding, if you place your book in the fantasy genre, you do NOT need to use the word fantasy in your keywords. In fact, any keyword already in your blurb (which gains priority over keywords if I recall correctly) does not need to be repeated.
> 
> Just checked: I do NOT have the word "fantasy" in any of my keywords, however it IS in my blurb.


Please do more experimenting with this! My own experience has been that keywords in the blurb don't tend to have much effect (though that is just on Amazon, they make all the difference in the world on Google Play). But I'm not saying you are wrong, you could very well be right, just saying people need to double check _if_ their keywords are being left out of keywords section and still showing up in a search? Mine don't seem to. OR, Sever, are you focussing more on category listings than search results when you say this?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

This is interesting. My teen book was turned down by a trad publisher who described it as 'too much like a Hardy Boys story'. So I've put in my blurb ''A Hardy Boys style action adventure set in South Africa". I just typed in *Hardy Boys style* and these came up in the list as a random pages in the books.

The Imago SequenceJul 1, 2007
by Laird Barron
Excerpt
Page 147 : ... I pried a little out of him; more I learned Hardy Boys style ...See a random page in this book.

American Comic Book Chronicles: 1960-64Feb 26, 2013
by John Wells and Jack Kirby
Excerpt
Page 139 : ... had Bolling work on a straight Hardy Boys-style spin-off comic book. ...See a random page in this book.

The Dark Days of Hamburger HalpinFeb 9, 2010
by Josh Berk
Excerpt
Page 176 : ... car and is into daring hardy boys style adventure? seems like ur ...See a random page in this boo

The Good Years on Goodyear BlvdOct 3, 2014
by Mr Jim Luke
Excerpt
Page 76 : ... lawman his first big clue on how to find this outlaw Hardy Boys style ...See a random page in this book.

There are several more, but you get the idea. Has anyone else tried random phrases from their books to see what would happen?


----------



## busywoman

Someone said:


> I'll out myself
> I did the Rock The Keywords "book" after doing tons of research, sharing it, and it helping a lot of authors.
> I'll use a Select free day and make it free for you non-Ku'ers. I'll run it free for a day to be helpful but then I'll probably put it back to paid because I only get 5 in 90 days ( see talk about original purpose below )
> It talks all about punctuation, repeating words, hyphens, etc.
> 
> We ran experiment after experiment using a lot of software like Kindle Samurai and stuff. ( I don't know why but I love the word stuff, LOL )
> 
> www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC
> 
> *EDIT - For those without KU I was able to schedule a freebie for the 4th so it will go free at midnight*


Thank YOU, Someone! Everyone should go get this book. It takes less than 30 minutes to read, but you will have a much better idea of how to input keywords after it. Combined with Evenstar's original post and some of the points brought up in this thread, it lays out the points with clarity. It is pure gold.

Essentially, what the book confirmed for me is something I'd experienced as a searcher. That is, Amazon's search engine when it comes to search terms is very simplistic. It's not nearly as sophisticated as Google's.

When I say that, I am referring specifically to searching using the search box. Amazon's algorithms are more sophisticated than Google's in other ways, such as by giving you suggestions of what others bought and so on.

But when it comes purely to searching on words in a search box, Amazon has a simple search engine.

For the Amazon search box, think about your keywords as individual words. String together as many relevant (to your book) individual words as possible in the characters allowed in the keyword box. Because that's pretty much how Amazon's engine treats them -- as individual words. Don't repeat words in various phrases or combinations. There's no need to.

Amazon treats everything as individual words (mostly).

Repeat that phrase in your head, over and over, as you input words into the keywords field.

What this book doesn't cover, and what I'd like to see answered is:

*1. What determines the order in which books show up for a certain search? *

Some here have suggested that the order in which books appear is based on product ranking. However, from a half dozen searches I tested out, that doesn't seem to be the case. I see lower ranking books (sometimes much lower) appearing much higher in search results in every single search I try.

Now it is possible that Amazon is averaging the rankings for purposes of displaying them. For example, maybe Amazon displays in order of the highest ranking items as determined by their average rank over the past 30 days. Or something like that. If so, it would make it much harder to figure out how to get to page one of Amazon's results. But so far, I can't detect a pattern based on book rankings.

What I can say is that the results don't seem to take relevancy into account. Sometimes I had to dig deep before more relevant results came up in search results. For example, if I searched on a two-word phrase, I might have to dig down into page 5 or 6 to find a result that focused on both words. The earlier results focused on one or the other of the terms, only.

In other words, let's say I searched on: blue widgets. Without quotation marks. The first few pages of results might return results for widgets (red, green, etc.). Or they might return results for books that were about blue in some way. It might not be until page 5 that I found the one book that covered blue widgets. Therefore, the early results were not very relevant to what I wanted to find.

Again, that goes back to Amazon (mostly) handling searches as if they are based on individual words, not phrases.

*2. How much weighting is given to the title, subtitle and book description when someone searches via the search box? *

From a quick unscientific review, it seems that the book title/subtitle and description probably do affect searches in some fashion. I see some books on similar topics, but because the title or subtitle doesn't have the exact phrase I searched for, they don't show up at all or they don't show up until much farther down in the search results.

I see other books that use the precise phrase in their title, description etc. seeming to come up higher. But without more testing it's hard to tell the precise impact.

*3. Does Amazon factor in book review verbiage for search results?*

In other words, if reviewers are very very specific in using certain terms in their reviews, can that help a book rank higher?

My guess would have been "no" -- that Amazon only factors in what is in the keywords field, the title/subtitle and description fields.

HOWEVER, I was surprised to find that wasn't the case. At least when it comes to author searches.

When searching on an author's name, some other books by different authors came up. In every case that I saw, the author's name was mentioned by a reviewer as a comparison ("if you're a fan of author X you'll love this book"). In one case it came up for a negative comparison ("if you want a better book, go get Title Z by Author Y").

Does that mean review language is part of Amazon's search engine, when you use the search box? That's what I wonder.

I should mention there were "also-boughts" for the searched author on the individual book page, and it is possible that Amazon was parsing "also boughts" rather than the review verbiage when it brought back that page. More testing would be required to determine exactly whether language contained in a consumer review helps with search or is ignored.

Maybe someone knows the answers to these 3 questions?


----------



## Jena H

This isn't new, based on any sort of change in KDP policy, is it?  I know many have been "stuffing" the keyword space for quite a while now.  (Sorry, this post is new to me, and I've only read the first and last pages, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything already said/asked.)


----------



## Justawriter

Evenstar,

Thank you for this post. Following your suggestions, I changed the keywords on two books. After making the change, I immediate saw a 35% increase in sales on both books. My other books, which I did not change, did not see the same increase, so it was definitely driven by the keywords change. I also added some keywords to my product description.

Interestingly, there was no change in borrows on either book, just sales. My borrows often seem to 'stick' for a few days at the same number I've noticed.


----------



## smikeo

Thanks Evenstar, this was an amazing post, I appreciate the incredible effort! I'm already planning my stuffing...


----------



## Someone

Jan
Hardy boys style books is in your keywords, right?
If not, I'd definitely put it in. I can see people searching it and variations of it big time.


Busywoman
Glad you are finding it helpful.  
I'll get something together on the other questions.
Short answers are
1) relevance swayed by purchase history of buyers and rank
2) A LOT
3) Reviews play into the search algo


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Someone said:


> Jan
> Hardy boys style books is in your keywords, right?
> If not, I'd definitely put it in. I can see people searching it and variations of it big time.


I've put it in the blurb. Should I also put it in the keywords?


----------



## Someone

YES ( and I am yelling yes   )


----------



## Someone

Blurb is weighed in the algo but the algo seems to not weigh it as high. I say seems because I am only drawing from my opinion/experience with trying to figure out the algo somewhat. Seems is a fair word bc it hasn't been heavily experimented with by anyone who has shared what they found out with me.


----------



## AnonWriter

Just tossing out another huge THANKS to Someone. Downloaded and reading now.


----------



## Becca Mills

Someone, thank you for the free book! 

Yesterday I changed my keyword fields. Some of the terms I used are strings suggested by the Amazon search box ("alternative history dinosaurs"; "fantasy series for adults"). I used the commas to group terms that I thought might make the book appear in misleading places if they were divorced from their larger phrase ("sci-fi fantasy"). I used one of the keywords for a massive list of everything I thought relevant to the book. I used the full 400 available characters.

I might have to change everything again after I read Someone's book. 

I'll report back if these changes make a difference.

FWIW, in my experience, terms in titles are highly valued in Amazon's searches.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

I think this Youtube video about how to use the Amazon search bar to find your "buyer keywords" will help a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do5IGzhIvdM

It's helped me find more targeted "buyer keywords" for my children's book that has gotten me to page one or two of my search terms. It's pretty much the same advice given in the popular book "Supercharge your Kindle sales" but in a short 5 minute video.

Happy keyword hunting. 

Dee


----------



## busywoman

Darryl Hughes said:


> I think this Youtube video about how to use the Amazon search bar to find your "buyer keywords" will help a lot:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do5IGzhIvdM
> 
> It's helped me find more targeted "buyer keywords" for my children's book that has gotten me to page one or two of my search terms. It's pretty much the same advice given in the popular book "Supercharge your Kindle sales" but in a short 5 minute video.
> 
> Happy keyword hunting.
> 
> Dee


 Dee, that was helpful for purposes of identifying specific words to choose as keywords.

I especially like the added point he makes starting at around minute 3:40.

That's where he advises also using those buyer-oriented keywords in your author website, blog and -- I would add -- in some social media posts you do.

Because remember, some people may start their searches outside of Amazon. In other words, they may be searching on Google, Bing, Yahoo, Yandex, Duck Duck Go, and so on. If they find similar search terms on the Web as a whole, pointing back to your website, blog, etc., those in turn can help funnel people toward your Amazon page. That assumes those pages on your website or blog somehow point to your book page on Amazon or refer to your book by name, and so on. Once a buyer finds a reference on the Web, the buyer should (hopefully) be able to follow the breadcrumbs to find your book page on Amazon and buy your book.

"All roads lead to Rome."


----------



## Bulkarn

Great post and thread. Just want to pass something along that I have heard but not tested. If you know people who want to buy your book, ask them to search for it by a keyword and buy from that search result, rather than just give them a link. Theory is that when people buy from a search result the book creeps closer to the top of a the list. 

Thanks for this great post and thread and to Someone for his book. Will test and report back.


----------



## cblewgolf

I read this post and changed all of my keywords Friday.  While nothing has changed as far as sales, the downloads on my perma-free sure did.  I was giving 1-3/day away w/o promotion.  (total of only 40 in December)  Yesterday I had 17 downloads.  I must attribute this to the keyword change - so thanks!

Question - why separate the keyword stuffing by commas?  Why not just 1 long list or do the individual groupings matter?

And can someone point me to their AMZN page where they include keywords in their blurb?  Is it a list at the end or do they incorporate them into the actual book description?


----------



## Colin

Bulkarn said:


> Great post and thread. Just want to pass something along that I have heard but not tested. If you know people who want to buy your book, ask them to search for it by a keyword and buy from that search result, rather than just give them a link. Theory is that when people buy from a search result the book creeps closer to the top of a the list.
> 
> Thanks for this great post and thread and to Someone for his book. Will test and report back.


I've tested this and it does work.

It's not an exact science, but to get a book from around page 30 of a given keyword search, to page one, you will need something like 150 to 200 sales from people using your chosen keyword/keyphrase. However, rather surprisingly, being on page one doesn't necessarily equate to a big increase in sales.

BTW. Great post Evenstar.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've added *Hardy Boys style* to the blurb (it was only a short while ago, so don't know how long it takes) and I didn't see the book show up in that search. But now I've also added it to the keywords and included 'Nancy Drew style' as a reviewer said it reminded her of a Nancy Drew story, so I will see what happens.

(I can imagine someone at Amazon tearing their hair out over all the sudden keyword changes, and someone else from Amazon reading this thread and gleefully changing the algos in order to thwart us all   )


----------



## Jake Kerr

Downloaded the book via KU, and it is fantastic. REALLY great job, Someone.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Someone said:


> I'll out myself
> I did the Rock The Keywords "book" after doing tons of research, sharing it, and it helping a lot of authors.
> I'll use a Select free day and make it free for you non-Ku'ers. I'll run it free for a day to be helpful but then I'll probably put it back to paid because I only get 5 in 90 days ( see talk about original purpose below )
> It talks all about punctuation, repeating words, hyphens, etc.
> 
> I KNOW there are errors - typos - in it but I/we don't care. Maybe I/we should but I don't now. The errors don't interfere with the purpose or the original intent of putting it on Amazon. They also don't change what we have discovered and if people want to think they do, their loss not ours. It wasn't really ever put up to sell. The purpose when it was published was to use Amazon and KU as a server - to have it all together and only a link away for whoever whenever. When the purpose is no longer needed - the discussion dies off - the price to 2.99 and let it sit in case another time came up. Like now,  Because I yap on other forums, I gotta be careful about using the 5 free days.
> Shhh but using Amazon as basically a server saves the time to type a long post about what a group of people, who studied and studied this by experimenting and looking at results, and/or send an email. I thought, "heck, I'll just make into what looks like a book. By not hosting it on one of my sites, I can keep my pen names anonymous and still enjoy sharing the info via a link".
> We ran experiment after experiment using a lot of software like Kindle Samurai and stuff. ( I don't know why but I love the word stuff, LOL )
> 
> I see someone bought it- return it and grab it free.
> I'm going in right now to make it free; hopefully it won't take too long ( going to be free on the 4th )
> Here's the link. I'm going into my bookshelf now.
> www.amazon.com/Rock-KDP-Keywords-Marketing-Publishing-ebook/dp/B00R6AYHYC
> 
> *EDIT - For those without KU I was able to schedule a freebie for the 4th so it will go free at midnight*


Thank you for this. Having done a lot of similar testing myself I can only imagine the hours that you guys put in to verify all of this. It validates a lot of my own research and clears up some things that I just wasn't able to establish firm answers for with the time and resources I had available, and has saved me a lot of time and headaches trying to figure out the rest..

One thing I'm not sure that I agree with is that word placement in the KDP textbox doesn't matter. When I search using different combinations of the same words, book placement in the search results varies The number of search results returned is identical in each case, but the books do show up in different orders within the results.

For example, if I search for "older man love story" and "love story older man" (logged out, searching in the Kindle Store) both return 818 results, but just scrolling down the first page you can quickly see that the books are returned in a different order. This effect seems magnified the further out in the search results the book appears.

I'm not sure whether the difference is enough to spend a lot of time worrying about it, but there does seem to be a difference.

Please don't take this as a criticism. I actually bought the book because I think it's incredibly valuable and you should be compensated for the time and effort you put into researching this. I'm just not sure this one specific part is entirely correct. It's also possible that there's something screwy going on from my end which I neglected to correct for and that's skewing the search results for some reason. That's why it's called "research."


----------



## Philip Gibson

Evenstar said:
 

> I will stuff Book Two with keywords I couldn't fit in for book one that are more specific, like: _Magic witches witchcraft Wicca pagan worship ceremony nature-worship moon goddess sorcery wizards wand occult_ (all those are just one keyword).


That keyword (actually key phrase) has 96 characters not counting spaces. So I guess you couldn't put in 7 keywords of that length if the limit is 350 - 400 characters.

I've never gotten to the point where the box tells me I've used up my full quota of keyword characters. How do we know what the actual limit is?

Philip


----------



## KelliWolfe

Philip Gibson said:


> That keyword (actually key phrase) has 96 characters not counting spaces. So I guess you couldn't put in 7 keywords of that length if the limit is 350 - 400 characters.
> 
> I've never gotten to the point where the box tells me I've used up my full quota of keyword characters. How do we know what the actual limit is?
> 
> Philip


I've tested it manually. After 400 characters it won't accept any more and truncates whatever you paste in.


----------



## Evenstar

Philip Gibson said:


> That keyword (actually key phrase) has 96 characters not counting spaces. So I guess you couldn't put in 7 keywords of that length if the limit is 350 - 400 characters.
> 
> I've never gotten to the point where the box tells me I've used up my full quota of keyword characters. How do we know what the actual limit is?
> 
> Philip


You are quite right, my strings aren't generally that long - all this was off the top of my head to demonstrate rather than actually copied from my keywords.

I usually keyword stuff until my quota is all gone. So the last one either ends up really short or really long depending on how wordy the previous ones were


----------



## Someone

> One thing I'm not sure that I agree with is that word placement in the KDP textbox doesn't matter. When I search using different combinations of the same words, book placement in the search results varies The number of search results returned is identical in each case, but the books do show up in different orders within the results.
> 
> For example, if I search for "older man love story" and "love story older man" (logged out, searching in the Kindle Store) both return 818 results, but just scrolling down the first page you can quickly see that the books are returned in a different order. This effect seems magnified the further out in the search results the book appears.
> 
> I'm not sure whether the difference is enough to spend a lot of time worrying about it, but there does seem to be a difference.


Do NOT hesitate to add to the discussion. I'm not one of those people who focuses on being "right". I could care less about being "right"; IMO insistence on being "right" only leads to ignorance. In my world there is no "right" or "wrong"; there is just stuff to learn.

It's interesting you say that because it's something we would see and then we would see a lot of examples that would refute it. I can't say, off the top of my mind, if we ever ran something just to study order. I'll look back in my notes. Regardless of what my notes say, we run a bunch of different experiments and IMO anyone's conflicting experiences is a a good reason to run another one.

So I say we put order on the list. We select our experimental order we run on how we judge something's importance and, when it comes to keywords, this factor - order of keywords - is quite important IMO. I'll let ya know what we come back with - please bump me if I don't.

Everyone please keep in mind there is no way we can say, "we know this for sure" about anything. Everything is really just very experimented hypothesis. We can never say "for sure" but we don't just toss spaghetti and say, "we tested this and blah, blah, blah" either. We really run stuff through the mill before we conclude anything; we base our paychecks on it after all.


----------



## Someone

Phillip


> I've never gotten to the point where the box tells me I've used up my full quota of keyword characters. How do we know what the actual limit is?


You'll know because it will just stop adding what you are typing into the box. Go in and type some phrase over and over again. You'll notice a point where you are typing but the box just don't seem to notice


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

Thank you very much for the book, Someone - will be reading it soon! (When not sleepy).

The changes I have made so far do seem to have produced more downloads of my permafree book. 

I was wondering whether, if you do a search using keywords while logged in, the search engine reflects this by producing books it determines of interest to you (like your own book?).


----------



## Jake Kerr

re. character limit

I just tested this. The character limit is 400, but note that this includes the spaces between the words you use. So if you have a lot of words, the spaces really add up to fill up the space. 

For example, if you have 51 words, that's 50 spaces, or 12.5% of the total characters you have access to.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

At the bottom of the search page it asks 'did you find what you were looking for?" and then asks for a comment on the search. I wonder if it makes any difference if readers answer 'yes' to that particular string of search words


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Just seen this in a book TITLE  

Spread Wide Baby I Know Your Secret: Hot Girl Taboo Lusty Hotwife Horny Woman Erotic Free Romance Husband wife Body Love Short Erotica Fiction Story Book


----------



## Someone

Whoever left this one star review:


> Books like these drive me nuts. I got it for free but it's normally priced at 3 dollars. Think about that: 3 dollars for a 30 page ebook. But putting price aside: Here is a book purporting to have the secrets of keywords for promotions. Who are the authors? What are their credentials and proof of success? You won't find any of that information on the cover or in the book as they have seemed to want to be anonymous. The information contained within the book and is nothing new. You're better off searching amazon for the phrase "Amazon Keywords" and finding a more established book out of the many who have covered this topic.
> 
> Finally, this book was not edited. There are so many grammatical errors it's atrocious. How far in do you need to go? The header of the very first section: "THE IMPORTANT BUT OVERRLOOKED THING CALLED KEYWORDS". Seriously, you couldn't dream up a joke like overlooking the word overlook. There were far more grammatical errors making this book hard to follow.


Whoomp there it is - TYPICAL KB
I don't know why I am surprised or miffed about it. Probably because this is so TYPICAL of this place. Someone doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them. I knew there were typos in it. I said as much; said it straight out and why they weren't addressed. But when this post came up, I could have thought about the typos and said, "Ohh, gotta scrub it before I offer something on-topic that can help people in case people wanna go TYPICAL KB." But I didn't. Instead I went in, made it free ASAP, and posted I did so. You know, the un-typical KB kinda thing that so many people wish there was more of in this place...
That is what steams me so. This kind of stuff makes people not want to offer anything helpful. It is just mean.
Whatever.

You're welcome. I sure hope since it contains a joke you couldn't dream up, you don't use any of our research. None. Of. It. 
But you will. You will.
And you will because what you claim is in all the keyword books isn't out there at all.


----------



## Evenstar

Someone said:


> Whoever left this one star review:
> Whoomp there it is - TYPICAL KB
> I don't know why I am surprised or miffed about it. Probably because this is so TYPICAL of this place. Someone doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them. I knew there were typos in it. I said as much; said it straight out and why they weren't addressed. But when this post came up, I could have thought about the typos and said, "Ohh, gotta scrub it before I offer something on-topic that can help people in case people wanna go TYPICAL KB." But I didn't. Instead I went in, made it free ASAP, and posted I did so. You know, the un-typical KB kinda thing that so many people wish there was more of in this place...
> That is what steams me so. This kind of stuff makes people not want to offer anything helpful. It is just mean.
> Whatever.
> 
> You're welcome. I sure hope since it contains a joke you couldn't dream up, you don't use any of our research. None. Of. It.
> But you will. You will.
> And you will because what you claim is in all the keyword books isn't out there at all.


Oh my goodness! That is awful! And so undeserved. I've downloaded a copy, I have not had a chance to look at it yet, but if it is half as helpful as the others suggest then I think pretty much everyone on this thread has benefited. Let's not allow one bad apple to taint the whole barrel. I am sure that the good people on KB's will rally round and see to it that you get a bunch of five star reviews to off-set this one negative person, I know I will.


----------



## 75845

Someone said:


> *Someone *doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them.


Why did you one star your own book?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Someone said:


> Whoever left this one star review:
> Whoomp there it is - TYPICAL KB
> I don't know why I am surprised or miffed about it. Probably because this is so TYPICAL of this place. Someone doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them. I knew there were typos in it. I said as much; said it straight out and why they weren't addressed. But when this post came up, I could have thought about the typos and said, "Ohh, gotta scrub it before I offer something on-topic that can help people in case people wanna go TYPICAL KB." But I didn't. Instead I went in, made it free ASAP, and posted I did so. You know, the un-typical KB kinda thing that so many people wish there was more of in this place...
> That is what steams me so. This kind of stuff makes people not want to offer anything helpful. It is just mean.
> Whatever.
> 
> You're welcome. I sure hope since it contains a joke you couldn't dream up, you don't use any of our research. None. Of. It.
> But you will. You will.
> And you will because what you claim is in all the keyword books isn't out there at all.


That's maddening . I've left a review, but it's not showing yet.
ETA now showing


----------



## Lydniz

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Just seen this in a book TITLE
> 
> Spread Wide Baby I Know Your Secret: Hot Girl Taboo Lusty Hotwife Horny Woman Erotic Free Romance Husband wife Body Love Short Erotica Fiction Story Book


I wonder what that book's about, then.


----------



## Jena H

Someone said:


> Whoever left this one star review:
> Whoomp there it is - TYPICAL KB
> I don't know why I am surprised or miffed about it. Probably because this is so TYPICAL of this place. Someone doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them. I knew there were typos in it. I said as much; said it straight out and why they weren't addressed. But when this post came up, I could have thought about the typos and said, "Ohh, gotta scrub it before I offer something on-topic that can help people in case people wanna go TYPICAL KB." But I didn't. Instead I went in, made it free ASAP, and posted I did so. You know, the un-typical KB kinda thing that so many people wish there was more of in this place...
> That is what steams me so. This kind of stuff makes people not want to offer anything helpful. It is just mean.
> Whatever.
> 
> You're welcome. I sure hope since it contains a joke you couldn't dream up, you don't use any of our research. None. Of. It.
> But you will. You will.
> And you will because what you claim is in all the keyword books isn't out there at all.


How do you know this is from someone on KBoards?


----------



## KelliWolfe

Regardless of whether it was someone from here or not, the review was flat-out wrong. The specifics discussed in the book are simply not in any of the other books on KDP keywords out there.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

The book has now hit the top #100 in two categories.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

Mercia McMahon said:


> Why did you one star your own book?


----------



## Amanda Hough

Thank you! Wonderful post.


----------



## Someone

I really, really appreciate all the positive response. I can't tell you how down that review made me - even on a "book" I don't care about. I think it was because about other baggage in life I am carrying around right now. I'm the one in the family that bails everyone out and then, if I want to be paid back... Well you know how that goes.
I know. Off topic baggage. It just hit at the wrong time, you know?
But thank you very much. As completely crazy as it sounds to say, you made me feel A LOT better.

P.S. Yes. I am finally taking my mother's advice and getting better at saying no. A little better anyway.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

I gave the book a read.  Some eye-opening stuff...especially about not wanting to give up the security blanket of comma-usage (too true!).  

Giving it a test run on 2 books right now.  Will monitor for a few weeks and see if there's any change.  

Thanks!


----------



## Cherise

JessieCar said:


> I was wondering whether, if you do a search using keywords while logged in, the search engine reflects this by producing books it determines of interest to you (like your own book?).


I think this is likely the case.


----------



## KelliWolfe

So, on the cover it says "Volume #1." That implies that there will be a Volume #2. Care to give us any hints?


----------



## Claire Frank

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I gave the book a read. Some eye-opening stuff...especially about not wanting to give up the security blanket of comma-usage (too true!).
> 
> Giving it a test run on 2 books right now. Will monitor for a few weeks and see if there's any change.
> 
> Thanks!


I'm sure we'd all love to hear what happens!



Someone said:


> Whoever left this one star review:
> Whoomp there it is - TYPICAL KB
> I don't know why I am surprised or miffed about it. Probably because this is so TYPICAL of this place. Someone doing this while they are using the time people graciously go out of their way to give them. I knew there were typos in it. I said as much; said it straight out and why they weren't addressed. But when this post came up, I could have thought about the typos and said, "Ohh, gotta scrub it before I offer something on-topic that can help people in case people wanna go TYPICAL KB." But I didn't. Instead I went in, made it free ASAP, and posted I did so. You know, the un-typical KB kinda thing that so many people wish there was more of in this place...
> That is what steams me so. This kind of stuff makes people not want to offer anything helpful. It is just mean.
> Whatever.
> 
> You're welcome. I sure hope since it contains a joke you couldn't dream up, you don't use any of our research. None. Of. It.
> But you will. You will.
> And you will because what you claim is in all the keyword books isn't out there at all.


Super lame. I'm sorry you got hit with that. I hope it wasn't someone from here, but maybe that's just my wishful thinking. I, for one, think it was awesome that you shared this info and I appreciate the time you took to put it together, as well as the fact that you were willing to share it with us for free.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Someone - glad you are feeling better .

In case this is of use to anyone, this is the result of my keyword changes. I used the search phrases that seemed to be popular. I have to say I agree with a previous poster that it makes sense for 'erotica' to have a separate place. If I had been searching with a child I would have been mortified when the erotica books showed up.

The book is _Mystery at Ocean Drive (a teen action adventure)_. I used _Hardy Boys style_ in the blurb.

"hardy boys" 38 results. Page 12
"nancy drew" 636 results. Page 21
"action adventure teenagers" 486 results. Page 1
"Boys mystery books" 5,278 results. Too much erotica - gave up looking. 
"mystery books for teens" 2,916 results. Too much erotica - gave up looking.
"mystery detective books 81,183 results. Too many to trawl through
"mystery detective books for teens" 954 results. Page 7
"radio control helicopter" 26 results. Page 1
"RC model helicopter" 17 results. Page 1 (but a bit lower down the page)
"books about surfing" 28 results. Nothing
"surfing" 1,054 results. page 12
"teen books surfing" 33 results. page 1
"teen girl books surfing" 3 results. first one
"teen boy books surfing" 3 results. Second one 
"gift ideas for teen boys" 44 results. page 2
"gift ideas for teen girls" 82 results. page 5

Now waiting to see if it makes any difference to sales


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Monique said:


> Intersting. I think it's v possible (probable?) that keywords in the description can lead to categories, but perhaps are not searchable. For instance, Burgton should bring up your book if the description is searchable, but it doesn't.


Heck, really? I never thought to try that. I suppose it makes sense to limit words, otherwise "the" "is" it" etc, would screw up relevancy.


----------



## Someone

Sweet Jan. Hopefully it will help your sales. I really think people search Hardy boys style. I could definitely see myself searching that if I was looking for books like yours. I'm trying to think of other stuff I could imagine searching. 

Kelli
Yeah. We are putting together the stuff we are discovering on our last round. I'll let ya know. This subject isn't a publishing focus; it's just a "Rising tides lifts all boats and we found X out" kinda thing.



Keywords do matter some in the description but it seems to be that 
1) density plays an issue, ie the blurb waters down keywords effect
2) the algo isn't as description sensitive to keywords as it to other places



One thing that really seems to matter is customer relevance, ie someone searches dogs and buys book X, the algo sees book X relevant to dogs.
Do you know get what I am trying to say?


----------



## Lydniz

I just searched for a specific phrase in my blurb. It comes up as the third result on page 1 if I put quotes around it.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Lydniz said:


> I just searched for a specific phrase in my blurb. It comes up as the third result on page 1 if I put quotes around it.


Are you sure that you don't also have the words in your keywords or title/subtitle? I've tested phrases from my blurbs numerous times and never gotten any results from searching.

One thing I've noticed is that having the words searched for in your title/subtitle apparently gives you a much higher rank in the search results than just having them in your keywords. This should be testable, and someone willing to a bit of research on it could probably even get a fair idea of the quantitative differences in having a search term only in the title/subtitle, only in the keywords, and having it in both.


----------



## Someone

Title is HUGE


----------



## Lydniz

KelliWolfe said:


> Are you sure that you don't also have the words in your keywords or title/subtitle? I've tested phrases from my blurbs numerous times and never gotten any results from searching.


Absolutely certain. However, I've just tried it with a different phrase and a different book and it didn't work.

ETA: it's just occurred to me that the phrase might appear in a few of my reviews. I wonder if that makes a difference?


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

Cherise Kelley said:


> I think this is likely the case.


Thank you for that, Cherise! I'd better log out to try my keyword search.

Sorry you got 1-starred, Someone. That sounds a rather pointless and spiteful act by [person unknown].


----------



## pauldude000

Keyword stuffing is not a good idea, though it can work accidentally. The purpose of this post was to teach how to use keywords, and Evenstar did a good job with the understanding and knowledge base she has. 

However, Amazon is pretty transparent about how search ranking works, and the keyword I shall use here is:

RELEVANCE

Amazon bases the search results based upon relevance towards the search term the customer uses, and this is nowhere a secret. Amazon scans the title, subtitle, description, and keyword list to make a master list of product keywords. The title and subtitles are the most important. Search results are based first upon title content, secondly the subtitle content, thirdly the product description content, and THEN LASTLY provided keywords.

I will use one of my books as an example. Title - "The Amazing Wood-Gas Camping Stove" : Subtitle - "A Simple DIY Project"

Now, someone types in this phrase: 

"Book on how to make a camping stove"

THAT EXACT PHRASE IS THE MOST RELEVANT KEYWORD POSSIBLE! (Not screaming, it just cannot be emphasized enough.) It is first treated as a keyword, and then broken down into individual words as keywords. 

My title and subtitle does not have that exact phrase, so it will rank lower than any other title or subtitle that does. However, it does contain two words out of the eight, and will be ranked accordingly. Another product that contains more keywords in the title and subtitle will rank higher in the search results. If that exact phrase is found in the description than it will rank higher than my book, since the exact phrase does not appear in the product description. However, my product description does contain most of those keywords, so it will adjusted in rank higher in this particular search than another book with less. A partial match of that exact phrase is to be found in my keywords (all but two of the words), so will be adjusted in search rank accordingly.

The highest possible rank placement comes where the exact phrase is to be found in title. Second highest rank placement is in the subtitle. Third highest rank placement is that exact phrase in the description. Fourth highest rank is that exact phrase in the keyword list. Fifth is highest amount of individual keywords in title, etc., etc., etc.

Most search phrases do not exactly match any title or subtitle exactly, so that search phrase NEEDS to be found in the description (your book just shot up in search ranking just knowing this.   ) Overusing the phrase is useless, and has been with many search engines for quite a long time. Having the phrase fifty times will not make your book any more relevant than a book using it once. Where is is placed can change the relevance, so having the phrase in the description is better than having it in the keyword list, and having it as a title or subtitle is the best. However, placing a search phrase as your title, in most cases, will make your book appear as if it was written by a third grader. 

Keywords stuffing is generally a waste of time. Yes, it can garner the occasional oddball hit, but each stuffed keyword (batch of words used as a single keyword entry) is counted as one keyword phrase, which quickly becomes of fairly low relevance for any search phrase, simply due to the volume of mismatches within the keyword. It is seen as having some relevance, but not much.

Use the keywords to have key phrases or keywords NOT used in the title or description. 

Evenstar is absolutely right in that use of a phrase will count higher than an individual word. Think search phrases for your type of book, pray that words are in your title or subtitle, but if not make sure that the phrases or words appear in your description, if at all practical without sacrificing quality. Work everything else into your granted seven keyword list on the publish page of KDP. If you need special keywords to get into a specific category, include those on the KDP publishing page.

PHEW! That was long winded.


----------



## Jake Kerr

> but each stuffed keyword ... is counted as one keyword phrase


Paul, did you read Someone's book. His/her research (and my own very slight research) directly contradicts what you wrote above.


----------



## KelliWolfe

I'm sorry, but Amazon absolutely *does not index the description/blurb for search*. I've tested this 800 different ways. You can put anything you like in the description and search for it, but if it's not in your title/subtitle/keywords that book is not going to show up in the search. This is trivial to test and I wish people would quit saying it when it's obviously not true.

Some people say that Amazon weights words in the titles/subtitle/keyword fields higher if those words also appear in the description, but no one has ever provided any proof to back that up and I tend to call BS on that one. If they're going to that much trouble it's just easier to index the whole thing.


----------



## CoraBuhlert

I just updated the keywords on three of my titles respectively. Let's see what happens.


----------



## Cherise

Google does index the Amazon product description and use that for search, though. Just FYI.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Keyword phrases. Do they work or not? Here's some direct evidence that seems to show that they do not. For my book _Resisting Molly_ I've pulled the following snippet from my keyword field. I c&p'd it directly from the keywords textbox. None of these keywords appear in my title or subtitle.

*older man younger woman,erotic romance,love story*

Those are three of my seven keywords for that book, they're in the exact order they appear in the keyword textbox. Since Someone's research shows that the commas are treated as spaces, that's the equivalent of one big phrase "older man younger woman erotic romance love story," right? So here's how _Resisting Molly_ ranks in the search results based on combinations of the words from that phrase:

"older man younger woman erotic romance love story" #19
"older man younger woman love story erotic romance" #12
"erotic romance love story older man younger woman" #12
"older woman younger man love story erotic romance" #11
"older woman younger man love romance erotic story" #11
"love story older man younger woman erotic romance" #20
"erotic romance older man younger woman love story" #19
"erotic older love man romance younger story woman" #10
"erotic love man older romance story woman younger" #10
"younger woman story romance older man love erotic" #10

The exact phrase match ranks worse than the phrases where I switched the order of the words. Even if Someone's research was wrong and Amazon treated comma separated phrases as distinct keywords it doesn't appear that the search engine cares about the order of the words in the phrases.

Now, I haven't the faintest idea *why* it works that way, but if you try this with your own keywords I believe you'll see similar results.


----------



## Walter Spence

Outstanding post, Evenstar. Busy as I've been, I read the thread shortly after the OP came out, then came back later to a thread swollen maybe ten times. Which meant I missed Someone's free offer, but since I've got Amazon Prime (and hadn't borrowed a book yet), was able to get it that way.

Now to mull over the additional six pages of posts (after popping an Exedrin or two)...


----------



## Caddy

My books are still updating, but already one of the 4 in my House series picked up 3 new categories that are listed on the book's page. I'm glad to be in those categories, as I had a hard time choosing before!


----------



## Silly Writer

<LL looks around...backs slowly out the door. It's almost 2am and her eyes are blurry... Thought the OP title said "Evenstar's Monster _*Porn*_ on Amazon...>


----------



## Lydniz

KelliWolfe said:


> I'm sorry, but Amazon absolutely *does not index the description/blurb for search*. I've tested this 800 different ways. You can put anything you like in the description and search for it, but if it's not in your title/subtitle/keywords that book is not going to show up in the search.


I'm not disputing your point, but then how do you explain what I said above - i.e. if you search for a particular phrase from one of my blurbs it brings up my book as the third result? The phrase is totally incidental to the subject matter of the book and I haven't put it in any keywords or metadata. My only thought was that the phrase might be mentioned in reviews. (As I said, I've only tested it with that one phrase and one other from a different book, which didn't work.)


----------



## busywoman

Thanks again to Evenstar for starting this topic and to everyone who has joined in. It's most illuminating. I've learned a lot, even from points of disagreement. It's brought many things to the surface.

I would like to add something to what Kelli points out here:



KelliWolfe said:


> Keyword phrases. Do they work or not? Here's some direct evidence that seems to show that they do not. For my book _Resisting Molly_ I've pulled the following snippet from my keyword field. I c&p'd it directly from the keywords textbox. None of these keywords appear in my title or subtitle.
> 
> *older man younger woman,erotic romance,love story*
> 
> Those are three of my seven keywords for that book, they're in the exact order they appear in the keyword textbox. Since Someone's research shows that the commas are treated as spaces, that's the equivalent of one big phrase "older man younger woman erotic romance love story," right?


Kelli, I think you raise a very important observation. Your example is quite helpful. But perhaps you reached the opposite conclusion?

As I interpreted what Someone wrote, it's that for purposes of the keyword box (solely), Amazon ignores punctuation and therefore does NOT treat that as an exact match phrase. It treats every word in the keyword field as individual words. Each word is separate and apart from every other word in the keyword field.

Remember, input and output are two different activities when it comes to a search engine.

And Amazon is throwing multiple considerations into the output. It's like Amazon's search engine says, "The searcher is asking for ____. Bots, let's go check the keyword field, title/subtitle, author name, description, review verbiage (possibly), and find all the places those words show up. Then let's add in a cup and a half of book ranking/popularity, 2/3 of a cup of the customer's prior searches, and a tablespoon of this and a teaspoon of that -- and mix them all up using our own special recipe. Here's what you get, searcher!"

That might explain why words in the keyword field can be in one order, but upon searching the results seem to come out based on a different order. That's because Amazon is taking into account many different things besides keywords when it interprets and spits out the search results.

Just my few thoughts based on a searcher's experimentation...


----------



## KelliWolfe

busywoman, that was the point I was trying to make. I don't think that Amazon does "phrase matching" at all. I *think* based on my experiments that they assign each individual word that you type into your keyword box a value based on relevance (which is weighted according to various things like what words people used when they pulled up your books, what browse category they were in when they clicked on your book, etc.) and then they use those values to determine where your book should rank in the search results. So if you have the words

love story erotic romance

in your keyword field, Amazon might automatically assign a value of 50 to each of those words. Then a couple of people do a search on "love story," see your book and click on it, and Amazon increases the weight on the keywords love and story by an extra 10 points because they've been shown to be more relevant to your book.

love - 60
story- 60
erotic - 50
romance - 50

so searching on "love story erotic romance" would return your book ranked better in the search results over "erotic romance love story" because while the placement order in the KDP keyword textbox doesn't matter, the placement order in the search textbox does.

This is my opinion and it would take some rigorous testing to bear out - preferably with a new book in an extremely unpopular genre with a horrible cover that you could pretty much guarantee that no one else would click on while you did your search tests - but it's something that we ought to be able to figure out. Again, I may be completely off here; this just happens to be one way that would account for the kind of thing we're seeing.

I've seen a lot of books where they compare search results using search phrases against each other to decide which combination works best, but I've never seen anyone comparing search results that compared using phrases against just the keywords in random order the way I did above. I think it's going to be very hard to argue that phrases are meaningful based on these results. Again, though, this is something that anyone here can test with their own books and I would encourage them to do so rather than just taking my word for it. That way you *know* whether it works or not.  

Lydniz, I can't account for the result that you got. But you said you tried the same thing with one of your other books and it didn't work, either. I've tried many, many times to use snippets from my blurbs in searches and never had any luck. Based on what some people have said I've tried using the first sentence, last sentence, and so on but it's all the same. No results found. One thing I would suggest is to make sure that you're logged out of Amazon when you do the search; they do cache information about your account and skew the search results based on your history. Try it that way and see if it still works?


----------



## ScottC

Are there any do's or don't about subtitles? I have blank subtitles for each of my books and it seems like I'm missing an opportunity to put a phrase
with important keywords.


----------



## Sonya Bateman

Thanks so much, Evenstar, for this awesome post, and thanks so much to Someone for the book -- which I have just signed up for my trial month of Kindle Unlimited just so I could get it. 

My brain is totally fried right now... so I'm posting in this thread so I can find it and read it all the way through. Thank you to everyone who's adding to the discussion here. It's awesome!


----------



## KelliWolfe

ScottC said:


> Are there any do's or don't about subtitles? I have blank subtitles for each of my books and it seems like I'm missing an opportunity to put a phrase
> with important keywords.


You're not supposed to put anything in the subtitle field that doesn't appear on the cover of your book. Amazon doesn't seem to be enforcing this right now, but they have dinged people for it before and with Amazon you just never know. If you can modify your covers easily you should certainly consider it.


----------



## Someone

Regarding keywords and description:
Sales are dependent on visibility; logically one can't buy and enjoy reading a book they can't find. I'm a firm believer of keywords playing a crucial and sometimes underestimated role in visibility. Cover, title, blurb, keywords ( CTBK ) = visibility = sales. 

CTBK puts a book in a reader's hands. Our well-crafted, engaging and entertaining content keeps it there.  

My opinion on keyword description is only based on what I believe because it appears to be true. Appears. That's it. Nothing more or nothing less than appears. It is very important to point out - I want to be clear - keyword description was not tested for and my opinion is 100% based on speculation. 100% speculation.

That being said, I am inclined to agree with what would be a combination of Kelli and Lydniz's view.  But I don't know anything with any kind of certainty that I feel comfortable drawing a conclusion on . My speculation only based opinion is that description keyword is either a small variable or a nothing burger when it comes to algo, keywords and the search engine. Until I know better, I think keywords in the description may have a very slight effect - and very slight is different than no and, depending on other keyword use, that very, very slight might give the occasional slightly discernible boast. Basically a combination of what Kelli says - she says she notices nothing - and what Lydniz says - she noticed what she thinks was some help on one book. 

I do know this. Keywording in description cannot be a big algo factor because of logic and word density. When we consider what our blurb MUST do to sell our book, IMO, there is just no feasible way to overcome the word density issue. Well unless, besides a few books one might be able to get it to work on, one doesn't mind having a really crummy description/blurb. 

Perhaps I could nudge towards getting off the fence if I, at least, published one book with a keyworded description. But why even do that? It won't solve anything. When I tell people what testing shows, I always remember that if people act upon what is said, their income can also be acted upon. IMO, because income can be affected, it's irresponsible to make any kind of conclusion about keyword descriptions on a test of no less than, at the very least, 500 books.  I can't think of how you could enjoy reliable results if any part of keyword description test involved using software, and don't know anyone - or any group of people - who would want to 1) put the time and effort it would take to test, especially when we know from appearance that the results aren't going to reveal anything compelling or significant enough to change behavior 2 ) effectively kill 500 books since a reliable keyword description test would require the books tested to forfeit their blurbs and only have keywords as a description.  But, OTOH, until it is tested, because the algo is so complex, I don't think anyone can definitively make any absolute claim on keyword description.  

And I keep coming back to the density issue. An effective blurb is hard enough. Trying to hit a certain density while not sacrificing blurb on every book... I don't even want to think about that. Sure every once in a while, it might not be too tough, but every book? IDK. I think consistently trying to exploit your description to chase the algo - because shooting for a certain density is going to lessen the blurb's quality - would end up being a zero sum game.


----------



## Kylo Ren

Messing around with searches this morning and typed in "coming of age horror". Came up on the first page, right under Neil Gaiman's _Ocean at the End of the Lane_  (which is a great book, btw) and right above a book called _He's So Tight_.  W..... T..... H.


----------



## KelliWolfe

You obviously didn't look at the books that were ranked higher than yours and Neil's.


----------



## Caddy

Well, following this advice and the advice in the book did NOT work for me. In fact, it hurt one of my series. For weeks those books have shown up on the top 100 of either kindle short reads one hour or kindle short reads ninety minute.  After the new keywords went live they show up on NONE of these. Yet my ranking is as good or better than the others on those lists.  

Consquently, my borrows have plummeted.

I am NOT happy. 

I have since redone the keywords, using commas to separate phrases and repeating some words for the most important phrases like I had them before, then doing a bunch of keywords without commas, etc. I sure hope I get back on those lists. This sucks right now.

Also, I got excited yesterday when one of the House books went live and showed new categories on the product page. I had said 3 but it is 2....and only for one of the four books. 

So I really don't think anyone knows how this works. And what seems to work for some doesn't for others...not just for people but for different books in a series!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

artofstu said:


> Messing around with searches this morning and typed in "coming of age horror". Came up on the first page, right under Neil Gaiman's _Ocean at the End of the Lane_  (which is a great book, btw) and right above a book called _He's So Tight_.  W..... T..... H.


As posted here previously, it might make sense to have the erotica books in a separate search area. Try searching anything with 'girls' or 'boys'  I wouldn't let my children do a search on their own.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've decided to write a series with the titles:

Amazon Bestseller (Mystery & Suspense)
Amazon Bestseller (Thriller)
Amazon Bestseller (Romance)
Amazon Bestseller (Sci-Fi)

etc

Might save a lot of pencil chewing over keywords


----------



## Christine_C

Sever Bronny said:


> You're amazing, thank you
> 
> You wouldn't happen to be the one who made an awesome thread a while back on the subject, the thread I've been trying to track down for over a month now? The thread heavily influenced my choices of keywords and how to structure them, including blurb use.
> 
> P.S. Will it be available free in Canada?


If you end up finding that thread, let me know! I am quite confused about keywords. And I'd like to do whatever you did.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Caddy said:


> Well, following this advice and the advice in the book did NOT work for me. In fact, it hurt one of my series. For weeks those books have shown up on the top 100 of either kindle short reads one hour or kindle short reads ninety minute. After the new keywords went live they show up on NONE of these. Yet my ranking is as good or better than the others on those lists.
> 
> Consquently, my borrows have plummeted.
> 
> I am NOT happy.
> 
> I have since redone the keywords, using commas to separate phrases and repeating some words for the most important phrases like I had them before, then doing a bunch of keywords without commas, etc. I sure hope I get back on those lists. This sucks right now.
> 
> Also, I got excited yesterday when one of the House books went live and showed new categories on the product page. I had said 3 but it is 2....and only for one of the four books.
> 
> So I really don't think anyone knows how this works. And what seems to work for some doesn't for others...not just for people but for different books in a series!


The "short reads" categories are not keyword driven. Amazon puts them in there when/if they feel like it.

But I am going to throw a caveat in here about keyword phrases. I do not believe that they are helpful for search, nor do I believe that repeating words in the keyword field gives you better search results. HOWEVER, I am not at all sure that browse categories will work if you have the keywords split up. For example, if you are trying to get your book into the Romance->New Adult & College category using the keyword "new adult", I do not know if it will work if you don't have the phrase entered exactly that way in your keywords.

Caddy, if you were in the Lit&Fic->Short Stories category and no longer have "short story" as an exact phrase in the keyword field it might be messing you up. If so you have my apologies. I wasn't thinking about browse categories at all in my earlier post.


----------



## Christine_C

I just bought that book, read it, and modified my keywords accordingly (and I'm selling almost no books, so I have nothing to lose). 

But am I right in understanding that no commas are needed at all? That I should just put in every word that I can think of into one long string?


----------



## Caddy

I originally had:

kindle short reads>one hour>gay

as a keyword.

After reading the book and the thread,since this was a very important keyword phrase, I left the repeated words in BUT I took out all commas before and after the phrase and all the >  

The only difference was the punctuation. However, besides losing those lists I noticed my books aren't showing up in some of my other keyword categories, either. 

Also, to the poster who said it can take a week, I can't afford to wait a week and let my books plummet. I have submitted changes back for the important phrases and pray the 2 days of this won't ruin what I had going.


----------



## Kylo Ren

Caddy said:


> I originally had:
> 
> kindle short reads>one hour>gay
> 
> as a keyword.
> 
> After reading the book and the thread,since this was a very important keyword phrase, I left the repeated words in BUT I took out all commas before and after the phrase and all the >
> 
> The only difference was the punctuation. However, besides losing those lists I noticed my books aren't showing up in some of my other keyword categories, either.
> 
> Also, to the poster who said it can take a week, I can't afford to wait a week and let my books plummet. I have submitted changes back for the important phrases and pray the 2 days of this won't ruin what I had going.


Wait, why are you putting > in there?


----------



## Caddy

> Wait, why are you putting > in there?


Because that is how it comes up on amazon. I saw it for another gay short story romance writer who does well. So when I published that is how I inputted it. And it worked. I got all 6 bookx on the one hour (and ninety minutes if your short is longer and they automatically move it to that one I guess if it is)lists as soon as my ranking was good enough.

By the way, this isn't for books with my name on them. It is for my gay romance short stories under my pen name Sibley Jackson. They were doing well and now tanking as of today.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Interesting. Amazon says those categories are restricted and that you can't get into them via keywords.


----------



## Claire Frank

KelliWolfe said:


> The "short reads" categories are not keyword driven. Amazon puts them in there when/if they feel like it.
> 
> But I am going to throw a caveat in here about keyword phrases. I do not believe that they are helpful for search, nor do I believe that repeating words in the keyword field gives you better search results. HOWEVER, I am not at all sure that browse categories will work if you have the keywords split up. For example, if you are trying to get your book into the Romance->New Adult & College category using the keyword "new adult", I do not know if it will work if you don't have the phrase entered exactly that way in your keywords.


I think you're right on about splitting up the keywords and not getting into browse categories. I've been messing with my keywords and when I had _new adult_ together in a phrase that was separated by a comma (I think it might have been _new adult fantasy somethingorother_), it put me in Fantasy>New Adult. When I changed keywords again and took out the commas, I kept the words new and adult in there, and they are next to each other, but they aren't separated by a comma. I'm no longer showing in Fantasy>New Adult.

So, based on this very small unscientific test of one, I think if you're aiming for a browse category that is two words, you probably have to have it as a phrase separated by a comma.


----------



## Evenstar

L.L. Akers said:


> <LL looks around...backs slowly out the door. It's almost 2am and her eyes are blurry... Thought the OP title said "Evenstar's Monster _*Porn*_ on Amazon...>


That's a whole different pen name


----------



## Caddy

KelliWolfe said:


> Interesting. Amazon says those categories are restricted and that you can't get into them via keywords.


That IS strange. They were also listed on my product pages as some of the categories I was in. I had 11 categories before I fooled around with keywords and now I have only 9 for these books.


----------



## Evenstar

Well, I can not disagree with anyone's findings, because, as I said in the OP, this is merely what seems to work for me and I have no evidence for any of it.

I only touched very lightly on the issue of keywords affecting category, simply saying that I was sure they did and to take it into consideration when selecting them. Clearly, from people's experiences, they _are_ indeed having an effect on category too.

I've been glad to see that the majority of people have had an increase in sales/downloads after tweaking their keywords. But yes, it can be trial and error and occasionally the changes have gone the wrong way for me too. But when that happens you learn from it. You try to see what you dropped that was working for you and what you added that isn't. I personally definitely encourage experimenting! Don't just update them and forget about it.

I have to say that I am still using commas. I don't know if they make a difference, but I do know that I like to be able to segregate a 'key' phrase, kind of let it stand alone. Especially if I have done my research and I know it is a phrase with power. I don't want it diluted with loads of other words. But that's just me... It could be making no difference at all. I try to get in my key phrases, add a few extra words maybe that could be used as an alternative like Romance or Romantic and always put both Humour and Humor. But generally I do most of my "stuffing" towards the end. When I've got my seperate keywords then I can put in a comma and away I go with all the random words that cover my book and hope that someone is putting in two or more of those, because then I _should_ show up.

I think I might be repeating myself now, but I'm very tired, and though this is only my opinion, I felt some of it was worth clarifying. x


----------



## Jake Kerr

> So, based on this very small unscientific test of one, I think if you're aiming for a browse category that is two words, you probably have to have it as a phrase separated by a comma.


My experience does not show that: I ranked in "coming of age" with the following keywords:

1938 action adventure age alternate asian boy coming...

As you can see, the KDP recommended keyword is "coming of age," but not only do I not have "coming of age," I have age before coming, and it is separated by three other words.

One thing I DEFINITELY noticed: When you save a change to your keywords, it refreshes all of your categories. I think it is possible that for people in Amazon assigned categories (like short reads) when you change your keywords it kicks you out until Amazon puts you back in.

My guess is that this is what happened to Caddy. The only categories she lost were the ones that you need to be manually assigned by Amazon. So my guess is that she refreshed her categories and needs to wait for Amazon to put her back into the Short Reads ones.

Just a guess, though.


----------



## Kylo Ren

jakedfw said:


> 1938 action adventure age alternate asian boy coming...


Um...


----------



## Kenosha Kid

artofstu said:


> Messing around with searches this morning and typed in "coming of age horror". Came up on the first page, right under Neil Gaiman's _Ocean at the End of the Lane_  (which is a great book, btw) and right above a book called _He's So Tight_.  W..... T..... H.


I'm sorry, but that made me laugh.

It's true, though -- "coming of age" searches seem to turn up a lot of shirtless men.


----------



## Holly A Hook

I've never sold well on Amazon in the four years I've been publishing there, so I have nothing to lose by trying this.  I get a sale here and there (maybe once per week) on my first two books in my signature, so I'll start the experiment there.  Since my books involve natural disasters combined with the paranormal, I'm limited to vague genre words in my keyword phrases since no one searches for natural disaster paranormal books.  I'm not sure if that will have a negative effect or not.  

Here's what I'm trying first:

Paranormal series for teen girls
teen paranormal romance books series
teen fantasy books series
young adult paranormal romance series


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

I find it a bit hard to tell whether there is a correlation between keyword tweaks and visibility (as expressed in sales). My last keyword change, when I took out the commas prior to reading Someone's book, did seem to have a positive impact.

Since then, I've been searching with single words and word strings, but haven't made any adjustments yet. In Fantasy, Amazon does suggest specific keywords that you can use so that your book can be found with narrowing searches - things like "ghost" or "paranormal" or whatever. I'm sure writers who use those genres know about those keywords.

But there's no question that some of the keywords I enter in the keyword box influence the categories in which I appear - ones like "coming of age" (again) and "metaphysical and visionary". That just checks out with what Caddy was referring to, that some of the keywords do different things (as opposed to just appearing in searches).


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## KelliWolfe

Jesse, Amazon provides lists of keywords to get your books into the categories and themes you want so people can find them both by browsing through the menus and by searching.


----------



## Silly Writer

jakedfw said:


> 1938 action adventure age alternate asian boy coming...


Whuh?! 

I'm surprised this keyword phrase hasn't landed you in the dungeon by Carlos!

ETA: on topic, I added Short Stories to my keyword chain, and when the book updated it landed there. I thought I did that with the keyword (on my other pen name)


----------



## Caddy

L.L. Akers said:


> Whuh?!
> 
> I'm surprised this keyword phrase hasn't landed you in the dungeon by Carlos!
> 
> ETA: on topic, I added Short Stories to my keyword chain, and when the book updated it landed there. I thought I did that with the keyword (on my other pen name)


Yes, it's how I get in short stories, too. I"m still in short stories because of using that as key words, but I have lost the specific one-hour short stories category by dropping the commas, so I've reentered it and am waiting. I hope it isn't gone for good.


----------



## Jake Kerr

You all have dirty minds!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Monique said:


> Intersting. I think it's v possible (probable?) that keywords in the description can lead to categories, but perhaps are not searchable. For instance, Burgton should bring up your book if the description is searchable, but it doesn't.


I "think" you're right. The words in the blurb that just happen to match the words Amazon use to get special categories seem to be searchable. Here is the book that shouldn't be in superhero cat but IS because my blurb talks about one of my characters being a hero http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00FU5LSME


----------



## KelliWolfe

Wow. Thanks for that, Mark. Very interesting, and that should be relatively easy to set up tests for as well.


----------



## Wifey

Played around with my keywords yesterday. If you want your book in the Amazon teen & young adult category the phrase must be followed by a comma. When I removed it, my book was moved to the children's ebook category. 

SO  teen & young adult, horror...  NOT    teen young adult horror...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Caddy said:


> Yes, it's how I get in short stories, too. I"m still in short stories because of using that as key words, but I have lost the specific one-hour short stories category by dropping the commas, so I've reentered it and am waiting. I hope it isn't gone for good.


How do you get into one hour short stories? Do you have to have a specific number of pages? I have a collection of 17 short stories, which can all be read as a quick read, but the number of pages makes it look longer than a quick read .


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Deb Hanrahan said:


> Played around with my keywords yesterday. If you want your book in the Amazon teen & young adult category the phrase must be followed by a comma. When I removed it, my book was moved to the children's ebook category.
> 
> SO teen & young adult, horror... NOT teen young adult horror...


Mine is in teen & young adult and I haven't even got young adult as a keyword or in the blurb. But it appears in books, and I only have it out as a Kindle 

Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Mysteries & Detectives > Detectives
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

KelliWolfe said:


> Jesse, Amazon provides lists of keywords to get your books into the categories and themes you want so people can find them both by browsing through the menus and by searching.


Thank you very much for that, KelliWolfe!

I'm going to do a keyword test later on today. But even when I log out Amazon's cookies recognise me, so I need to go incognito or something.

There was a link to a proxy server further up this thread, I think. I'd better hunt for that!


----------



## Wifey

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Mine is in teen & young adult and I haven't even got young adult as a keyword or in the blurb. But it appears in books, and I only have it out as a Kindle
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Mysteries & Detectives > Detectives
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery


If you want to move your books from the two Kindle>Children's eBooks categories to Teen & Young Adult then add the keyword. I've been trying to get one of my books in both Teen and Childrens for over a year but can't seem to do it so I decided Teen would be a better fit.


----------



## Wifey

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Mine is in teen & young adult and I haven't even got young adult as a keyword or in the blurb. But it appears in books, and I only have it out as a Kindle
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Mysteries & Detectives > Detectives
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery





Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Mine is in teen & young adult and I haven't even got young adult as a keyword or in the blurb. But it appears in books, and I only have it out as a Kindle
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Mysteries & Detectives > Detectives
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery


Kindle Store>Kindle eBooks>Teen & Young Adult>Mysteries & Detectives>Detectives only contains 384 books but Teen & Young Adult>Literature & Fiction>Action & Adventure is pretty big - 5387 books.


----------



## Caddy

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> How do you get into one hour short stories? Do you have to have a specific number of pages? I have a collection of 17 short stories, which can all be read as a quick read, but the number of pages makes it look longer than a quick read .


It goes by number of pages. I submitted with the one hour keyword phrase I showed a few pages back. However, some of mine were placed in the 90 minute short reads instead because a few more pages.


----------



## Jake Kerr

One thing I've noticed is that you can't make assumptions about your categories from your book page. I've been in the top 100 of a category--I've gone to the ranker and seen my book in the ranking--and not have it show up on my book page. 

That led me to think that my book is probably in more categories than I think it is, but without going through and searching every top 100 list, I'm not sure how to find that out for sure.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Caddy said:


> It goes by number of pages. I submitted with the one hour keyword phrase I showed a few pages back. However, some of mine were placed in the 90 minute short reads instead because a few more pages.


It seems that the vast majority of quick reads are in the erotica genre, and so are most of the short reads. I don't think readers searching for 'ordinary' short stories will trawl through the erotica on the chance of finding other genres. Is it even worth trying for this category? And what about children's stories that can easily be read in 90 minutes - should they be included?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

jakedfw said:


> One thing I've noticed is that you can't make assumptions about your categories from your book page. I've been in the top 100 of a category--I've gone to the ranker and seen my book in the ranking--and not have it show up on my book page.
> 
> That led me to think that my book is probably in more categories than I think it is, but without going through and searching every top 100 list, I'm not sure how to find that out for sure.


Your book is in all the categories listed on the bottom of your sales page, and can rank in any or all of them, but only the top three will appear higher on the page.


----------



## ruecole

True, but your book can appear on the bestseller list in the broader categories, too, if it gets high enough in the rankings. But it will only show the ranking in the sub-category on your page.

For example, my book is currently #1 in Rabbits, #5 in More Animals, and #11 in Animals in the Children's Ebooks category, but it only shows the ranking in Rabbits on the page.

Hope that helps!

Rue


----------



## The 13th Doctor

I've just done a test on Amazon.com and Amazon UK, and the results are interesting... but probably meaningless but I'll post them anyway.

So, I wanted to see how one of my books (Neighbourhood Witch) fared with a new keyword on Amazon UK as it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference on Amazon US. The keyword I typed in to the Kindle Store search field was Paranormal Romance Witch Love. I scrolled down the first page and saw Evenstar's "Halloween Magic and Mayhem" book, at #14 on the first page. Since I guessed that that book was doing better than mine, I thought I'd check it out on Amazon US.

Using the exact same keyword, Evenstar's book is #133 on the 9th page on .com. I should note that on the UK site, I got 740 results with the inputted keyword. On the US site, 762 results.

The difference on the two Amazon sites is probably something you knew about already, but I thought it was interesting.

Now I'm off to check the difference between all my books and see if there is any.

@Evenstar - Hope you don't mind me using your book as an example.


----------



## cw hawes

OMG! thanks Evenstar! This has completely changed my thinking. Now to get stuffing!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Just discovered I'm in a new category  I didn't put *short reads* in my keywords, so Amazon has sorted it thus.

Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
*Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Literature & Fiction
Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Teen & Young Adult*
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries & Thrillers > Detectives


----------



## Brian Olsen

Thanks for this post - I've been terrible with keywords, not doing much more than using Amazon's recommended terms to get into the right categories. I made a huge change yesterday after reading this. For the first book in my series, I went from these keywords:

murder, fun, New York City, gay and lesbian, urban, humor, artificial intelligence

To these:

contemporary modern New York City Manhattan Brooklyn urban science fiction thriller technothriller free, fun funny humor comedy light, lesbian LGBT homosexual bisexual drag queen gay lead protagonist main character, evil murder killer corporations, AI artificial intelligence singularity, brainwash brainwashing mind control, creepy eerie scary twentysomething adventure roommate friends alcohol

Went live yesterday, no change yet. Same average number of downloads, still in the same categories, still ranking on the top free lists for Technothrillers and Science Fiction Adventure. Haven't tested any searches yet, but I'm going to try to get to that in the next few days. I'll repost if I see a bump!


----------



## Caddy

I was going to mention to Jan that the short reads divided into genre, but I see she has discovered it. In other words, my short gay romances will not be on the same Top 100 short reads one hour as her childrens. 

ALso, you can definitely get in other genres by using keywords. For instance, Gastien shows up in family saga but saga does not show up at the bottom of the page for his first 3 books.


----------



## Evenstar

garam81 said:


> I've just done a test on Amazon.com and Amazon UK, and the results are interesting... but probably meaningless but I'll post them anyway.
> 
> So, I wanted to see how one of my books (Neighbourhood Witch) fared with a new keyword on Amazon UK as it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference on Amazon US. The keyword I typed in to the Kindle Store search field was Paranormal Romance Witch Love. I scrolled down the first page and saw Evenstar's "Halloween Magic and Mayhem" book, at #14 on the first page. Since I guessed that that book was doing better than mine, I thought I'd check it out on Amazon US.
> 
> Using the exact same keyword, Evenstar's book is #133 on the 9th page on .com. I should note that on the UK site, I got 740 results with the inputted keyword. On the US site, 762 results.
> 
> The difference on the two Amazon sites is probably something you knew about already, but I thought it was interesting.
> 
> Now I'm off to check the difference between all my books and see if there is any.
> 
> @Evenstar - Hope you don't mind me using your book as an example.


Not at all  I find it all incredibly fascinating. The best thing for me about this thread is that I'm still learning more every time I read the new posts, which is excellent, because if we are not learning then we're standing still...


----------



## Cherise

busywoman said:


> It's like Amazon's search engine says, "The searcher is asking for ____. Bots, let's go check the
> 
> keyword field,
> title/subtitle,
> author name,
> description,
> review verbiage (possibly),
> and find all the places those words show up.
> 
> Then let's add in
> a cup and a half of book ranking/popularity,
> 2/3 of a cup of the customer's prior searches,
> and a tablespoon of this and a teaspoon of that --
> and mix them all up using our own special recipe. Here's what you get, searcher!"
> 
> That might explain why words in the keyword field can be in one order, but upon searching the results seem to come out based on a different order. That's because Amazon is taking into account many different things besides keywords when it interprets and spits out the search results.
> 
> Just my few thoughts based on a searcher's experimentation...


I think this is likely.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Well, that was a surprise.

The Breadwinners has *'family saga'* on the cover, in the title, and the blurb. Its main category is family saga.

-	Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Family Saga
-	Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Historical
-	Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Sagas
-	Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > African
-	Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Historical Fiction > Scottish

But when I searched for *family saga* my book didn't appear .
However, when I searched for *family sagas novels fiction* it was on the first page of 608 results .

I've now added *family saga* and* novel* to my keywords.

I assumed most readers would search for *family saga* without needing to add *fiction* or *novel*, but it seems that I might have been wrong 

It's worth checking your books for various search phrases.


----------



## KatrinaAbbott

jakedfw said:


> One thing I've noticed is that you can't make assumptions about your categories from your book page. I've been in the top 100 of a category--I've gone to the ranker and seen my book in the ranking--and not have it show up on my book page.
> 
> That led me to think that my book is probably in more categories than I think it is, but without going through and searching every top 100 list, I'm not sure how to find that out for sure.


I have found this to be true as well. My permafree is currently #21 in Teen & Young Adult Contemporary Romance eBooks, but it doesn't show that on my book's page.


----------



## Kathryn Meyer Griffith

Evanstar
I went and "tweaked" all my books' keywords on Amazon with phrases as you suggested and now...we'll see. Hope it helps me. Wow, though, it was hard thinking up lots of words for my horror and SF thriller/adventure books. I ran out of words and phrases and really had to dig. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## LyraParish

Nice post. Commenting so I can follow


----------



## Christine_C

Kathryn Meyer Griffith said:


> Evanstar
> I went and "tweaked" all my books' keywords on Amazon with phrases as you suggested and now...we'll see. Hope it helps me. Wow, though, it was hard thinking up lots of words for my horror and SF thriller/adventure books. I ran out of words and phrases and really had to dig. Thanks for the tip!


I have a witch book, too. But it seemed to me that mixing up the phrase "salem witch trials" into a longer string meant it wouldn't show up when I typed in those keywords. I had to isolate that phrase, I think. But then I did a "stuffed" keyword as the last one, so I'll see if that works.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

David S. said:


> 4. Other stuff. I searched for private rail car, and only got one hit in the Kindle Store, a non-fiction book. But in Books I got hundreds (because they search the text of the book).


This seems to be true. I tried it with one of my books and the text only comes up in print books.


----------



## Someone

Mark
Is super hero mentioned in any of your reviews? The algos use reviews for cats too.


----------



## Someone

Caddy
I don't know what happened there. It is nothing we have ever seen. What a bummer. I think instead of doing the comma thing, it might be better to go with the sure bet and just email KDP and ask them to put you back in. They will do that.
( to clarify. We have seen keyword use to get into cats but nothing associated with keywords that would drop of that cat. CAddy, do you have any time related keywords? )

EDIT -- Oh Caddy. I just read further and saw you used a keyword phrase to get into the cat - ie keywording for cats. My book did not talk about keywordng for cats, on purpose, and I should have clarified when I noticed cats being part of this discussion. If you are keyowrding for cats, you MUST have a comma at the end of keyword phrase.  
I am really sorry. Very, very sorry.


----------



## Evenstar

David S. said:


> I have some specific questions about keywords, and this thread seems like a good place to ask. I'd like feedback from others on whether these things are worth doing and, if so, would Amazon be likely to allow them.
> 
> 1. Fan Fiction. It has already been established that Amazon doesn't allow using another author's name in keywords, but what about fan fiction? That's sort of the whole point, right? What if the author is long dead? I have a series based on Gaston Leroux's _Phantom of the Opera_, and I clearly state that on the title page. Could I legitimately use Gaston Leroux or _Phantom of the Opera_ in my keywords?
> 
> 2. Character names. Again, my series has some fairly iconic character names. If a reader searches for Christine Daae, I would like to think they would be interested in my book. Could I put character names in my keywords without getting in trouble with Amazon?
> 
> 3. Places. I did some tests on this and I'm convinced that people are doing it. Most hits are in non-fiction, primarily travel, but some turn up in fiction. I tried Las Vegas and, as expected, got a lot of hits. Then I tried Santa Monica and only got a few. Santa Monica appeared in the sample of some of these, but not all, and I'm fairly sure we've determined that what's in the book doesn't get searched. So I'm assuming that these authors actually put Santa Monica in their keywords.
> 
> 4. Other stuff. I searched for private rail car, and only got one hit in the Kindle Store, a non-fiction book. But in Books I got hundreds (because they search the text of the book). I narrowed it to Romance and found 43 books that mentioned private rail car. A private rail car has a significant role in my series. Should I add it as a keyword? Should these romance authors do the same? What's the likelihood that some random reader will decide they want to read a romance book with a private rail car in it?


Personally I would use the names and the places and maybe the fan fic titles if it's an old book or a classic.

Private Rail Cars? Uh, no... I don't think you are going to get many people doing a search on that for a fiction book, so you are wasting your words by sticking in stuff that hardly anyone will be searching for. You want to find search terms that are fairly popular! (but not so popular that you don't come up on the first page or two).


----------



## Someone

Regarding cats
If a category name is a string of words, you MUST have the string of words in the order it is in the cat and the phrase must end with a common. 
The book didn't talk about matching cats, so to avoid introducing cat discussion into the book, I didn't say mention anything about it.
For example cat name is Coming of age, Keywords must be: coming of age rather than: of age coming or: coming age of

Keep in mind, my book did not discuss cats at all. Never even mentioned the word. The book is just a basic, 1st time "let's talk about keywords" edition. Keywords is a very large discussion, much more than the subjects I did cover. It's silly to think a search algo as Amazon's could be covered in a one book thing - it would way too confusing, too much at one time to do it that way. Keywording for cats is whole other subject.

One thing to clear any confusion I may have caused by people reading in to what I did say and extrapolating it to cats. Comma placement does matter when one is specifically keywording to get into a cat
The cat name must end with a comma
Ie keyword string - if one uses >> coming for age vampire wolf they must break it up like coming of age*,* vampire wolf to keyword to get into coming of age cat.

I am so sorry Caddy. Email KDP to get back in. That is a sure bet.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Someone said:


> Comma placement does matter when one is specifically keywording to get into a cat
> The cat name must end with a comma


That's what's been screwing me up, I'll bet.


----------



## Someone

I feel horrible about not clarifying that. I was talking about keywording as a whole - kinda an introduction if ya will - and thought about digging deeper into cats and other stuff after people got the basic rules.
I feel so bad about Caddy's experience. It's all because I did take the approach I did. Bad mistake.


----------



## Ancient Lawyer

I don't want to muddy the waters, but I seem to have been put into the right categories without using commas.

The Categories were: Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age and
Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Metaphysical & Visionary

They appear in my keyword string in the right word order, but I didn't separate them by commas. I'm not sure whether this is significant?


----------



## Jake Kerr

As I noted, I got into coming of age not only without using commas but without having the words in the right order. So I'm not sure your concerns are warranted, Someone.


----------



## Claire Frank

I'm in Fantasy>Sword and Sorcery, which is keyword dependent, without commas. BUT, it booted me from Fantasy>New Adult (from what I can tell, at least) without the commas. 

So, like a lot of other observations, perhaps this isn't totally consistent? 

Oh Amazon, you fascinating and mysterious beast.


----------



## Jake Kerr

Is there a limit to the number of categories listed in the bottom? Maybe that's it? If you are in too many categories, it picks only some of them?

(Which would make me go and re-do my keywords if that is the case)


----------



## Cherise

Someone said:


> If you are keyowrding for [categories], you MUST have a comma at the end of keyword phrase.


Not true in my book's case.


----------



## Joseph J Bailey

Based on my experience, commas are not needed after terms to get into specific keyword based categories. 

Using one of my books as an example and a keyword string without commas, the book is in the following categories:

Books > Literature & Fiction
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Myths & Legends > Asian
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Metaphysical & Visionary
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Myths & Legends > Asian
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Steampunk

I hope this helps!


----------



## Someone

I am going to have the comma and cat retested because
1) a comma takes as much of a character as a space does so it is safe using them and IMO responsible considering data has shown using commas for cats works
ie, at the end of a word, you are going to have something that separates it from the next word so, since you can use 6 commas, why not use it after cat words/phrases. Example cat dog bird coming of age lion  is the same as cat dog bird coming of age,lion
2)I can't for the life of me figure out what happened in Caddy's case - course it is hard without the keyword list because it could be something else


----------



## Caddy

Someone said:


> Caddy
> I don't know what happened there. It is nothing we have ever seen. What a bummer. I think instead of doing the comma thing, it might be better to go with the sure bet and just email KDP and ask them to put you back in. They will do that.
> ( to clarify. We have seen keyword use to get into cats but nothing associated with keywords that would drop of that cat. CAddy, do you have any time related keywords? )
> 
> EDIT -- Oh Caddy. I just read further and saw you used a keyword phrase to get into the cat - ie keywording for cats. My book did not talk about keywordng for cats, on purpose, and I should have clarified when I noticed cats being part of this discussion. If you are keyowrding for cats, you MUST have a comma at the end of keyword phrase.
> I am really sorry. Very, very sorry.


Yeah, I wish I would have known that. I already did email them yesterday. Their reply this morning was "short reads is an restricted category and the only way you get in there by if the editing team decides to put you in there." This mularky, because all 6 of my books were in there right away. They did say, however, they would forward the email to the editors who make that decision since I had said I had always been in there. So, today I replied and said, "THank you for your explanation. However, since you've said you are going to foward to the people who make these decisions, I want to stress they had already put all six of these books in either the one hour or 90 minute ones, depending on length. Please also forward this so they are sure to see it. They replied again, saying "Thanks for you concern, etc etc and I see your question was already answered but since it was to be forwarded on, we have made sure they also get your second email."

I don't know if I will get back in or not. I will say my borrows have not declined. They bounced back later that first day, and after I adjusted a second time they stayed the same, but those categories did not happen, even though I used the right phrase. As far as having a time in the phrase, I had one hour because that is was a popular author I know was in so I copied and pasted the first time to get in. It worked, except for the ones with a few more thousand words they automatically adjusted to 90 minutes.

I sure hope I get back in. My rankings are good enough to be there. Yeah, my borrows didn't drop, but now I don't know if they would have increased had I stayed in there. Shoot.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Someone said:


> Mark
> Is super hero mentioned in any of your reviews? The algos use reviews for cats too.


Not as far as I know.


----------



## Daniel Dennis

Great information. Just spent about a half-hour running Amazon searches and am updating keywords. I'll check back in after a while and let you all know how it turns out.


----------



## Lydniz

David S. said:


> I wouldn't use "private rail car" to the exclusion of other, better keywords, but if there's room left, why not?
> 
> I realize they aren't a thing in the UK, but in the US, they definitely are. A Google search for "private rail car" turns up 13 million hits. Try it. It's a whole new world.


Yes, but is there an untapped market of readers all thirsting and panting for works of fiction featuring a private rail car, so much so that they will type that phrase into a search box? I'm guessing not. But as you say, no harm in putting it in if you're really, absolutely, 100% sure that there are no better ways you could be using up your keyword allowance.


----------



## Anne Glynn

Great thread, and about time I found it. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.


----------



## chrisanthropic

Someone said:


> I am going to have the comma and cat retested because
> 1) a comma takes as much of a character as a space does so it is safe using them and IMO responsible considering data has shown using commas for cats works
> ie, at the end of a word, you are going to have something that separates it from the next word so, since you can use 6 commas, why not use it after cat words/phrases. Example cat dog bird coming of age lion is the same as cat dog bird coming of age,lion
> 2)I can't for the life of me figure out what happened in Caddy's case - course it is hard without the keyword list because it could be something else


After binge-reading this whole thread I wonder if the cats we actually choose in the KDP dash have any effect on using keywords to get into subcats?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

chrisanthropic said:


> After binge-reading this whole thread I wonder if the cats we actually choose in the KDP dash have any effect on using keywords to get into subcats?


YES they do. For example, if you use the keyword "witch" and you happen to have chosen young adult and teen as a category, you WILL get children's books NOT YA. It happened to me. I didn't like it, because serial killers don't belong there.


----------



## Lydniz

David S. said:


> Is there an untapped market of readers all thirsting and panting for works of fiction featuring a creampie?
> 
> Apparently there is, as a search for it in the Kindle Store returns 6,844 books. None of them are cook books.


OK, and you know exactly why people are more likely to search for that than private rail car, don't you?


----------



## Mike_Author

David S. said:


> Is there an untapped market of readers all thirsting and panting for works of fiction featuring a creampie?
> 
> Apparently there is, as a search for it in the Kindle Store returns 6,844 books. None of them are cook books.


What's a "creampie"? Or is it better I don't ask...? Not sure if I want to enter the search into Google...


----------



## Alchemy

Great thread. Thanks to all contributors.

Is this the right place to ask for tips with paperback/createspace keywords? I'd like to know how it is different from Kindle keywords. If someone could post here, or point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful.


----------



## KelliWolfe

David S. said:


> Is there an untapped market of readers all thirsting and panting for works of fiction featuring a creampie?
> 
> Apparently there is, as a search for it in the Kindle Store returns 6,844 books. None of them are cook books.


6844 _already_? Darn, now I've got to go and research some new ones.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Mike_Author said:


> What's a "creampie"? Or is it better I don't ask...? Not sure if I want to enter the search into Google...


Yeah, best to not ask or wonder about some things. Ignorance truly is bliss in some cases. 

On the flip side, I immediately read this and had to ask "Why am I not using this word?" for one of mine. Tis something I shall have to rectify before the day is done.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Mike_Author said:


> What's a "creampie"? Or is it better I don't ask...? Not sure if I want to enter the search into Google...


I'm still wondering about PI in my _Leon Chameleon PI_ children's books  Also wary of Googling.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

*Report Back*

I haven't sold a copy of my children's book_ Bheki and the Magic Light_ for about two years - and have just had a sale . I can't help but think it has something to do with changing the keywords, so many thanks for this thread .

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #234,968 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)

#14 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Children's eBooks > Science, Nature & How It Works > Physics

(the book was first trad published by Penguin and I got reversal of copyright)

Now I just need a review


----------



## Lydniz

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm still wondering about PI in my _Leon Chameleon PI_ children's books  Also wary of Googling.


PI is pseudo-incest. Young ladies getting jiggy with their stepfathers.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lydniz said:


> PI is pseudo-incest. Young ladies getting jiggy with their stepfathers.


Thanks. Will be careful where I use PI


----------



## ruecole

Should probably expand it to Private Investigator, Jan, just to be safe. 

For reviews, have you tried LibraryThing?

Rue


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ruecole said:


> Should probably expand it to Private Investigator, Jan, just to be safe.
> 
> For reviews, have you tried LibraryThing?
> 
> Rue


Thanks.

The titles are part of a series and are already long: 
Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the missing canary eggs. 
Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the kidnapped mouse. 
Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the bottled bat.

But it is explained in the blurb that Leon is a Private Investigator. The first book was published in 1993 - before the www and any confusion about P.I.


----------



## Lydniz

I wouldn't worry too much about it, Jan. I think your meaning of PI is clear enough.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Jan, for what it's worth I don't think most readers search on "PI". That's more or less a publishing term and I don't see it used widely in that context outside of erotica author circles. Readers search by much more targeted keywords like stepfather/stepbrother because they don't read KB to find out that erotica books with those words in the title go into the adult dungeon at Amazon.


----------



## ruecole

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The titles are part of a series and are already long:
> Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the missing canary eggs.
> Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the kidnapped mouse.
> Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the bottled bat.
> 
> But it is explained in the blurb that Leon is a Private Investigator. The first book was published in 1993 - before the www and any confusion about P.I.


I meant in your keywords. Use private investigator or private eye.

Hope that helps.

Rue


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ruecole said:


> I meant in your keywords. Use private investigator or private eye.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Rue


Oh, I see. I have used the full words in the keywords. What I was worrying about is when I give talks to the children and ask them if they know what PI stands for (and the teachers will also be there -might be a few smirks)


----------



## Evenstar

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. Will be careful where I use PI


Yeah, whatever you do, don't use it in context or linked in anyway to your book "With the Headmaster's Approval", that title already has_ erotica_ written all over it! LOL


----------



## J.T. Williams

Great thread! (and now my keywords are the way the should be not the way I had them!   )


----------



## hardnutt

Lydniz said:


> PI is pseudo-incest. Young ladies getting jiggy with their stepfathers.


Ah! Thank you. I didn't know what it was either. So innocent . . .


----------



## hardnutt

I just thought I'd post on the sharp rise in my FREE downloads since I changed from using the commas and 7-keyword rule. (Sorry, I've never got the hang of posting a picture or screenshot here). 

Anyway, my FREE downloads, have climbed from 22 units 'sold' at the last highest point on my KDP graph (1 Jan) to 121 units at the highest point (11 Jan) since I started ignoring commas and the 7-keyword rule and instead used all the 400 characters including spaces rule.

I haven't advertised for some time, so it's definitely down to the change in my approach to keywords. I'm waiting for the corresponding rise in my paid sales, but some days there has definitely been an increase in those too.

This thread has been very educational. Maybe some kind soul will explain how I post a screenshot of these results (in words of one syllable . . .)


----------



## Lydniz

hardnutt said:


> This thread has been very educational. Maybe some kind soul will explain how I post a screenshot of these results (in words of one syllable . . .)


Upload the screenshot to somewhere like photobucket, then get the link from there (in photobucket it's the one that says "Direct"), come back here, click on the Mona Lisa icon (above the emoticons, next to Youtube) and paste the link in between the


----------



## Evenstar

Lydniz said:


> Upload the screenshot to somewhere like photobucket, then get the link from there (in photobucket it's the one that says "Direct"), come back here, click on the Mona Lisa icon (above the emoticons, next to Youtube) and paste the link in between the tags.
> [/quote]
> 
> How does one even take a screen shot? Do I have use the camera on my phone?


----------



## lisamaliga

Evenstar said:


> How does one even take a screen shot? Do I have use the camera on my phone?


Hit PRTSC [Print Screen] on your keyboard. It should be to the right of your F12 key.
Open a graphics program, or your Paint program in the Accessories area [if you have a PC].
Hit Control V.
There's your screen shot.


----------



## ruecole

You can take a screen shot with your phone, too. If it's iPhone or Android, you press both the home button and the lock button (or whatever it's called) at the same time. Your phone will take a screen shot of whatever is on the screen at that moment. Then upload to your blog, or a Photobucket, or FB, or wherever and then use the link to post here. 

Hope that helps!

Rue


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Evenstar said:


> Yeah, whatever you do, don't use it in context or linked in anyway to your book "With the Headmaster's Approval", that title already has_ erotica_ written all over it! LOL


It's not erotica at all . (Although there are some love scenes.)

I love the cover and my beta readers say it suits the MC. Not sure what I can do to dispel the impression that it's erotica, except to have 'general fiction' on the back cover of the paperback . I haven't got any keywords that might lead readers to think it's erotica.


----------



## Lydniz

Windows 7 also comes with a snipping tool which allows you to just clip the bit you want.


----------



## ruecole

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It's not erotica at all . (Although there are some love scenes.)
> 
> I love the cover and my beta readers say it suits the MC. Not sure what I can do to dispel the impression that it's erotica, except to have 'general fiction' on the back cover of the paperback . I haven't got any keywords that might lead readers to think it's erotica.


It's the title.

Rue


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ruecole said:


> It's the title.
> 
> Rue


Oh . 
It started out with the title 'A stallion in the fillies stable' but everyone said that was definitely too much like erotica, so I thought 'With the Headmaster's Approval' was much less so. He's the first male headmaster in a girls' school and stirs things up and nothing can be done without his approval, so I thought it was quite apt .


----------



## Jake Kerr

Jan, I'm afraid the cover and the title combined scream erotica to me, too. Slightly above crotch-level shot of a man in a suit, with a slightly S&M sounding title? I'm really sorry, but I think it has a very high chance of being mistaken for a Fifty Shades of Grey type book.


----------



## ruecole

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It started out with the title 'A stallion in the fillies stable' but everyone said that was definitely too much like erotica.


Eek! Yes, THAT definitely sounds like erotica! 

Rue


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

jakedfw said:


> Jan, I'm afraid the cover and the title combined scream erotica to me, too. Slightly above crotch-level shot of a man in a suit, with a slightly S&M sounding title? I'm really sorry, but I think it has a very high chance of being mistaken for a Fifty Shades of Grey type book.


Yeah, I'd probably jump to that conclusion too.


----------



## hardnutt




----------



## hardnutt

Lydniz said:


> Upload the screenshot to somewhere like photobucket, then get the link from there (in photobucket it's the one that says "Direct"), come back here, click on the Mona Lisa icon (above the emoticons, next to Youtube) and paste the link in between the tags.
> [/quote]
> 
> By George - she did it! Just lost my cherry when it comes to posting pix of any sort in a message!
> 
> Thanks Lydniz.


----------



## ruecole

Those are FANTASTIC results! Thanks for sharing them!

Rue


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

jakedfw said:


> Jan, I'm afraid the cover and the title combined scream erotica to me, too. Slightly above crotch-level shot of a man in a suit, with a slightly S&M sounding title? I'm really sorry, but I think it has a very high chance of being mistaken for a Fifty Shades of Grey type book.


Oh, bother (or words to that effect) . Perhaps that's why sales have been so poor. My beta readers were super enthusiastic about the story, with one 80 year old saying of the MC, "Any day of the week and twice on Sundays." 

Runs off to put more emphasis on 'general fiction' in the blurb.


----------



## Evenstar

hardnutt said:


>


I'm so pleased to see the keywords having such a positive effect on your downloads 

If this post even helped just one person then I'm really glad I wrote it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

hardnutt said:


>


What a super result. I wonder if it makes any difference if you keep making slight changes to the keywords? 
Does anyone know if by following this example with keywords on your website it will also have similar results?


----------



## smikeo

I'm toying with my keywords to get my book into some more categories. So far I have it in:

Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Horror
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Horror
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban

Which is great, those are the categories which I most want it to be in. Ideally, I would like it to get into 

Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers 
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > detectives
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > Fantasy & Supernatural

My keywords are currently: teen and young adult, spine chilling horror, paranormal ghost nightmares kidnapped stalker, high school action adventure, teen detective sleuth supernatural, creepy whistle mystery urban fantasy magic, haunted ghosts dark night

(I know I probably don't need commas, but I got anxiety attacks when I removed them, so back they came...)

I figured that the "teen detective sleuth" and "mystery" would do the trick. I now realize I don't have "thriller", which is probably one reason...

Any additional ideas?


----------



## Lydniz

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Oh, bother (or words to that effect) . Perhaps that's why sales have been so poor. My beta readers were super enthusiastic about the story, with one 80 year old saying of the MC, "Any day of the week and twice on Sundays."
> 
> Runs off to put more emphasis on 'general fiction' in the blurb.


I wouldn't have said anything, but since you say that sales are poor, then I will chime in and agree that yes, the cover and the title together do pretty much scream erotica or erotic romance. A change of cover would sort that out, though.


----------



## AYClaudy

So excited to try this!!!! My mind is blown. I had been using the single key words to be in categories but I just changed them and I'll report back with any results when they go live. 

THANK YOU for sharing this information!


----------



## Evenstar

Lydniz said:


> I wouldn't have said anything, but since you say that sales are poor, then I will chime in and agree that yes, the cover and the title together do pretty much scream erotica or erotic romance. A change of cover would sort that out, though.


I would change cover too. Something that says "sweet romance" would serve you much better, even if that isn't exactly what it is.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> What a super result. I wonder if it makes any difference if you keep making slight changes to the keywords?
> Does anyone know if by following this example with keywords on your website it will also have similar results?


Tweaking your keywords on a semi-regular basis can help because keyword combinations can fall out of use or new ones can become popular. If you do this I really suggest you save your old keyword lists so you've got a record of what works and what doesn't, and you can revert back if you hit a bad combination.


----------



## AA.A

The sales and borrows for *The Gardener of Baghdad *have gone down from 5-7 daily to none for the past two days after I changed one word keywords to combinations. Do you think I should wait a bit. Or change again?
How long does the effect usually start?
I added 
Historical romance mystery, historical British romance, Middle East historical fiction, romance mystery, war mystery romance, memoir romance, Iraq war

My novel is a historical romance set in two periods (present day Iraq and the 50's) where a Bookshop owner finds a hidden memoir written by a gardener that lived in Baghdad six decades ago. His memoir is about a love story with. British general's daughter that was based in Baghdad

Any suggestions for keywords?


----------



## Sonya Bateman

I also have results to share! Thanks so much for this post, Evenstar (and thanks to Someone for the book on keywords, which I have read and enjoyed! )

I did some research and changed my keywords on a permafree that had been averaging about 2 downloads / day (from 1 to 5, but usually only 1 or 2). Here's what happened when I used this no-comma, loads-of-words method for keywords:



Hopefully that image shows up.  THANK YOU!!


----------



## Wifey

smikeo said:


> I'm toying with my keywords to get my book into some more categories. So far I have it in:
> 
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Horror
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Horror
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> 
> Which is great, those are the categories which I most want it to be in. Ideally, I would like it to get into
> 
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > detectives
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > Fantasy & Supernatural
> 
> My keywords are currently: teen and young adult, spine chilling horror, paranormal ghost nightmares kidnapped stalker, high school action adventure, teen detective sleuth supernatural, creepy whistle mystery urban fantasy magic, haunted ghosts dark night
> 
> (I know I probably don't need commas, but I got anxiety attacks when I removed them, so back they came...)
> 
> I figured that the "teen detective sleuth" and "mystery" would do the trick. I now realize I don't have "thriller", which is probably one reason...
> 
> Any additional ideas?


In my experience, keywords alone won't get you into the Mystery and Thrillers category. You need to select that category. In most cases the keywords will only help you get into subcategories. So you might need to select the categories Mysteries & Detective Stories to get in. I found one exception. I was able to get into the horror category by using the keyword "Horror". Initially, I used the keywords "Teen & Young Adult, Horror, ...." and I was in the Teen & Young Adult Horror category. But when I switched the order to "Horror, Teen & Young Adult,..." my books ended up in both Horror and Teen & Young Adult Horror. I would also try the keyword "Mystery" and "Coming of Age," as well to get into the Teen & Young Adult<Science Fiction & Fantasy< Fantasy< Mystery & Coming of age subcategories.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Ahmad_Ardalan said:


> The sales and borrows for *The Gardener of Baghdad *have gone down from 5-7 daily to none for the past two days after I changed one word keywords to combinations. Do you think I should wait a bit. Or change again?
> How long does the effect usually start?
> I added
> Historical romance mystery, historical British romance, Middle East historical fiction, romance mystery, war mystery romance, memoir romance, Iraq war
> 
> My novel is a historical romance set in two periods (present day Iraq and the 50's) where a Bookshop owner finds a hidden memoir written by a gardener that lived in Baghdad six decades ago. His memoir is about a love story with. British general's daughter that was based in Baghdad
> 
> Any suggestions for keywords?


Repeating keywords doesn't help. Using

_historical romance mystery British Middle East fiction war memoir Iraq_

rather than what you've got accomplishes the exact same thing. If it's a romance, add in keywords like _love story_, _romantic_, etc. Poking through Amazon's Romance Category Keywords should give you some other ideas.


----------



## Christine_C

smikeo said:


> I'm toying with my keywords to get my book into some more categories. So far I have it in:
> 
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Horror
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Horror
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> 
> Which is great, those are the categories which I most want it to be in. Ideally, I would like it to get into
> 
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > detectives
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries and Thrillers > Fantasy & Supernatural
> 
> My keywords are currently: teen and young adult, spine chilling horror, paranormal ghost nightmares kidnapped stalker, high school action adventure, teen detective sleuth supernatural, creepy whistle mystery urban fantasy magic, haunted ghosts dark night
> 
> (I know I probably don't need commas, but I got anxiety attacks when I removed them, so back they came...)
> 
> I figured that the "teen detective sleuth" and "mystery" would do the trick. I now realize I don't have "thriller", which is probably one reason...
> 
> Any additional ideas?


I don't know, but let me know how it goes! I did it a slightly different way: Six phrases that are fairly sensible (e.g. "Witches and Wizards"), and one long phrase at the end. My way isn't working, but that could be for any number of reasons.


----------



## hardnutt

S.W. Vaughn said:


> I also have results to share! Thanks so much for this post, Evenstar (and thanks to Someone for the book on keywords, which I have read and enjoyed! )
> 
> I did some research and changed my keywords on a permafree that had been averaging about 2 downloads / day (from 1 to 5, but usually only 1 or 2). Here's what happened when I used this no-comma, loads-of-words method for keywords:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully that image shows up.  THANK YOU!!


WOW! I thought my downloads were good, but those are GREAT! Congrats.


----------



## Sonya Bateman

hardnutt said:


> WOW! I thought my downloads were good, but those are GREAT! Congrats.


Thank you!  Actually I think yours are really awesome -- you're staying consistently MUCH higher, even after that huge spike!


----------



## hardnutt

S.W. Vaughn said:


> Thank you!  Actually I think yours are really awesome -- you're staying consistently MUCH higher, even after that huge spike!


Thanks. But I think it's likely to be more to do with the fact I have a lot of books out than that I'm a super-duper marketer! It's more a case of Luddites R Us here!


----------



## smikeo

Deb Hanrahan said:


> In my experience, keywords alone won't get you into the Mystery and Thrillers category. You need to select that category. In most cases the keywords will only help you get into subcategories. So you might need to select the categories Mysteries & Detective Stories to get in. I found one exception. I was able to get into the horror category by using the keyword "Horror". Initially, I used the keywords "Teen & Young Adult, Horror, ...." and I was in the Teen & Young Adult Horror category. But when I switched the order to "Horror, Teen & Young Adult,..." my books ended up in both Horror and Teen & Young Adult Horror. I would also try the keyword "Mystery" and "Coming of Age," as well to get into the Teen & Young Adult<Science Fiction & Fantasy< Fantasy< Mystery & Coming of age subcategories.


So I want to ask an incredibly dumb question... How do you define the "coming of age" category? I used to think it describes books that are focused solely on a teen discovering him/herself regarding responsibility, sexuality, the future... etc.

Then again, perhaps "coming of age" simply describes a teen who is at that point in life? (which would probably make most books about teenagers coming of age books)


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Mystery at Ocean Drive (teen action adventure) results

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #147,672 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)

*#42 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries & Thrillers > Detectives *


----------



## smikeo

CN_Crawford said:


> I don't know, but let me know how it goes! I did it a slightly different way: Six phrases that are fairly sensible (e.g. "Witches and Wizards"), and one long phrase at the end. My way isn't working, but that could be for any number of reasons.


Will do! I just added "thriller" at the beginning, so we'll see...


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Deb Hanrahan said:


> In my experience, keywords alone won't get you into the Mystery and Thrillers category. You need to select that category. In most cases the keywords will only help you get into subcategories. So you might need to select the categories Mysteries & Detective Stories to get in. I found one exception. I was able to get into the horror category by using the keyword "Horror". Initially, I used the keywords "Teen & Young Adult, Horror, ...." and I was in the Teen & Young Adult Horror category. But when I switched the order to "Horror, Teen & Young Adult,..." my books ended up in both Horror and Teen & Young Adult Horror. I would also try the keyword "Mystery" and "Coming of Age," as well to get into the Teen & Young Adult<Science Fiction & Fantasy< Fantasy< Mystery & Coming of age subcategories.


I didn't select mystery & thriller as a category for Mystery at Ocean Drive. This is what I selected.
FICTION > Action & Adventure
JUVENILE FICTION > Action & Adventure > General

and these are the categories that it's in.

Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Literature & Fiction
Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Teen & Young Adult
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries & Thrillers > Detectives


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lydniz said:


> I wouldn't have said anything, but since you say that sales are poor, then I will chime in and agree that yes, the cover and the title together do pretty much scream erotica or erotic romance. A change of cover would sort that out, though.


Thanks. But I love the cover as it's just as I imagined the MC (and the cover designer read the book before designing it)  He appears to be an arrogant sexy alpha male, but at the same time is tender and caring. It's not a cosy romance. Will have to have a re-think.


----------



## Christine_C

smikeo said:


> So I want to ask an incredibly dumb question... How do you define the "coming of age" category? I used to think it describes books that are focused solely on a teen discovering him/herself regarding responsibility, sexuality, the future... etc.
> 
> Then again, perhaps "coming of age" simply describes a teen who is at that point in life? (which would probably make most books about teenagers coming of age books)


I think it could be anything about teenagers.


----------



## Wifey

smikeo said:


> So I want to ask an incredibly dumb question... How do you define the "coming of age" category? I used to think it describes books that are focused solely on a teen discovering him/herself regarding responsibility, sexuality, the future... etc.
> 
> Then again, perhaps "coming of age" simply describes a teen who is at that point in life? (which would probably make most books about teenagers coming of age books)


Coming of Age is a great category for books about teen. It used to be closer to your first definition but has definitely loosened up a bit and now fits your second definition. Check out the top 100 in Coming of Age and see if your book would fit before you decide. It is an easy sub cat to get into that's why I suggested it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Deb Hanrahan said:


> Coming of Age is a great category for books about teen. It used to be closer to your first definition but has definitely loosened up a bit and now fits your second definition. Check out the top 100 in Coming of Age and see if your book would fit before you decide. It is an easy sub cat to get into that's why I suggested it.


There's a lot of erotica if you search 'coming of age boys'


----------



## Wifey

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I didn't select mystery & thriller as a category for Mystery at Ocean Drive. This is what I selected.
> FICTION > Action & Adventure
> JUVENILE FICTION > Action & Adventure > General
> 
> and these are the categories that it's in.
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Literature & Fiction
> Kindle Store > Kindle Short Reads > Two hours or more (65-100 pages) > Teen & Young Adult
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Mysteries & Thrillers > Detectives


Interesting. I never tried Action & Adventure but that makes sense.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Deb Hanrahan said:


> Interesting. I never tried Action & Adventure but that makes sense.


Recommended. It's a pretty robust category.


----------



## Wifey

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> There's a lot of erotica if you search 'coming of age boys'


 I just checked Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age and it seems to be erotica-free. But yes, Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age does contain erotica as well as books about teens. But I don't think you will end up in that cat since you are using the Teen & YA keyword.


----------



## Wifey

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Recommended. It's a pretty robust category.


Thanks. I'll have to try that next time I change things up.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Deb Hanrahan said:


> I just checked Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age and it seems to be erotica-free. But yes, Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Coming of Age does contain erotica as well as books about teens. But I don't think you will end up in that cat since you are using the Teen & YA keyword.


If a reader searches for 'coming of age fiction' or 'coming of age novel', erotica appears in the first or second page. I would assume that 'coming of age' would be a teen book, so I wouldn't bother to check the category first and would just look under 'kindle'. It seems that erotica finds it way into the most innocent of searches, especially if you include the words boy or girl  .


----------



## ruecole

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. But I love the cover as it's just as I imagined the MC (and the cover designer read the book before designing it)  He appears to be an arrogant sexy alpha male, but at the same time is tender and caring. It's not a cosy romance. Will have to have a re-think.


Yes, but readers are being put off by it. Readers who would like the book will see the cover, think it's erotica and steer clear. They won't even get as far as reading the description to see it's general fiction. And erotica readers won't buy it once they read the description and realize it's not erotica.

This is why packaging is SO important!

Rue


----------



## Jake Kerr

I agree with Rue. We all know the concept of "kill your darlings." That doesn't just apply to characters, but chapters, subplots... and covers.  The crotch level shot and the title really are erotica. Actually, I'm really hoping to have a bunch of people come on and prove me and Rue wrong, because no one wants to kill their darlings if they don't have to.


----------



## Lydniz

David S. said:


> On his private rail car.


----------



## Cherise

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Thanks. But I love the cover as it's just as I imagined the MC (and the cover designer read the book before designing it)  He appears to be an arrogant sexy alpha male, but at the same time is tender and caring. It's not a cosy romance. Will have to have a re-think.


Some of us tried to tell you when you first got that cover and told us the book's title. Both really do say erotica.


----------



## Evenstar

David S. said:


> Just go with the flow, Jan. Instead of changing the title and the cover, just rewrite _With the Headmaster's Approval_ as erotica. That's what everyone thinks it is anyway. The hard part is already done.


LOL. ^

I'm so sorry Jan. I had to lose some covers I was pretty smitten with on my magic & mayhem series. But they were sending out the wrong message, despite perfectly portraying my characters they weren't "fun" which is the style of the books. Yours is saying "powerful and rich man, (bling watch, big member) who doles out a spanking to bad girls.
I really hope we are not upsetting or offending you with these observations. Obviously you must do whatever you think is best, we are only trying to be helpful.

And I hope that with the right keywords you are at least getting it to _some _of the right readers?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Evenstar said:


> LOL. ^
> 
> I'm so sorry Jan. I had to lose some covers I was pretty smitten with on my magic & mayhem series. But they were sending out the wrong message, despite perfectly portraying my characters they weren't "fun" which is the style of the books. Yours is saying "powerful and rich man, (bling watch, big member) who doles out a spanking to bad girls.
> I really hope we are not upsetting or offending you with these observations. Obviously you must do whatever you think is best, we are only trying to be helpful.
> 
> And I hope that with the right keywords you are at least getting it to _some _of the right readers?


Thanks for all the comments . (sorry about hijacking the thread )

I'm considering going into print, so don't want to make a mistake. My beta readers and target audience have loved the story (when I can find them!) I wish I knew how to harness word-of-mouth advertising lol. I've asked for opinions on the cover on my Facebook and other pages and it's been a bit mixed, but a few have said the cover certainly *didn't *make them think it was erotica.

We started designing the cover before 50 Shades became such a hot seller, so it's unfortunate that they give off a similar vibe. I wonder where the line is between a 'sexy' cover and an 'erotica' cover?

The MC is powerful and rich and I wanted to convey this, but there is certainly no spanking in the way he doles out discipline (taking away their cellphones works for him )

I played with some keywords and when I searched for 'headmaster' there were very few erotica titles on the first pages. Will wait a bit to see how my new keywords pan out before deciding on major changes.


----------



## Jake Kerr

Jan, I can understand your pain. I was in the process of doing final proofs on my $800 cover for my kids book, Tommy Black and the Staff of Light, when this series launched: http://www.amazon.com/Tommy-Cat-Black-Shifter-Book-ebook/dp/B00ND98FKM/

So now we have a Tommy Black kids book series and a Tommy Black gay erotica series, with this warning in the description: "*** This book contains highly sexual scenes and is intended for mature audiences who enjoy hot male on male scenes. ***"

But, honestly, it doesn't bother me at all. I find it amusing how chance works. I think the odds of a mistake being made here are quite small, so this has ended up being a humorous story to share with my writer friends.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

jakedfw said:


> Jan, I can understand your pain. I was in the process of doing final proofs on my $800 cover for my kids book, Tommy Black and the Staff of Light, when this series launched: http://www.amazon.com/Tommy-Cat-Black-Shifter-Book-ebook/dp/B00ND98FKM/
> 
> So now we have a Tommy Black kids book series and a Tommy Black gay erotica series, with this warning in the description: "*** This book contains highly sexual scenes and is intended for mature audiences who enjoy hot male on male scenes. ***"
> 
> But, honestly, it doesn't bother me at all. I find it amusing how chance works. I think the odds of a mistake being made here are quite small, so this has ended up being a humorous story to share with my writer friends.


  Let's hope they don't mix up the reviews!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Does the addition of the pen make any difference? It was in the original cover.


----------



## Lydniz

Ahem. I've been staring very hard looking for this 'big member' and can't see it.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Lydniz said:


> Ahem. I've been staring very hard looking for this 'big member' and can't see it.


It wasn't in the cover brief (or the story)  Perhaps 'powerful and rich' equates


----------



## Evenstar

Lydniz said:


> Ahem. I've been staring very hard looking for this 'big member' and can't see it.


It must be my filthy mind. I thought it was hinted at by the way his jacket is pulled back. And I did say it was "saying" that, rather than visibly showing that. Anyway. Clearly Jan doesn't want to change the cover, which is fine  So, I'll say no more.

Back on topic I just wanted to say that I've had some lovely PM's about how this thread has helped them increase sales/downloads, I hope they will share numbers here, but presumably they don't want to or they would have. So this is my way of saying how glad I am that people are still finding it here and finding it useful


----------



## I&#039;m a Little Teapot

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Does the addition of the pen make any difference? It was in the original cover.


No. It still looks like erotica, with lots of spanking.


----------



## AA.A

Once again, how many days after you change your keywords, do you see the effect?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

SevenDays said:


> No. It still looks like erotica, with lots of spanking.


Don't want to hijack the thread, but just I've just come back from a Writers' Circle meeting. There were about 35 members present and I showed them the cover and asked what genre they thought the book was. Most weren't sure (so this would fit in with general fiction), a few thought romance, and one perhaps a thriller. But not one of them associated it with erotica. They were quite shocked when I told them that the book was mistakenly being classed as erotica. They were mixed ages, but tending to be over 40 years and about equal male and female. 
Maybe we're all innocents in SA .

Back to the keywords. 
I have noticed a slight increase in sales over Nov and Dec numbers, but this could be due to the seasonal surge. Will have to see what happens over the next few weeks.


----------



## Jake Kerr

Jan, if you really want objective feedback. Spend $10 or $20 on a Google Consumer survey. Upload the cover. Provide like 10 genre choices that it may fit, and ask people which one it is.

http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/home


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

jakedfw said:


> Jan, if you really want objective feedback. Spend $10 or $20 on a Google Consumer survey. Upload the cover. Provide like 10 genre choices that it may fit, and ask people which one it is.
> 
> http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/home


Thanks for the link.


----------



## Evenstar

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Don't want to hijack the thread, but just I've just come back from a Writers' Circle meeting. There were about 35 members present and I showed them the cover and asked what genre they thought the book was. Most weren't sure (so this would fit in with general fiction), a few thought romance, and one perhaps a thriller. But not one of them associated it with erotica. They were quite shocked when I told them that the book was mistakenly being classed as erotica. They were mixed ages, but tending to be over 40 years and about equal male and female.
> Maybe we're all innocents in SA .


I'm pretty sure it is because they would never think that you write erotica. If your avatar is really you then it would simply never occur to the people in your Writers Circle that you might have written something with spanking etc! But the strangers/buyers on the internet don't know you, they don't know your age or what you might look like or even where you live. They judge the book by it's cover (and title). You need to canvas the opinions of strangers not friends/acquaintances.
You are very well liked here and we wouldn't dream of saying these things just to mess with you. It's genuinely how it appears to us.


----------



## Evenstar

Ahmad_Ardalan said:


> Once again, how many days after you change your keywords, do you see the effect?


I assumed it took a couple of days for Amazon to match up the new keywords to new catagories, but in terms of people searching it should be from the moment your changes go live.

I had this very nice message today (I assume they didnt want to post publicly which is why they messaged me direct so I won't say who it came from)

Quote:_ I updated it in the middle of the night and they've been changed for probably an hour or two now and my downloads have exploded. I'm on track to have one of my best days ever and I've ran some big ads before. _


----------



## Caddy

I still haven't gotten back on that short reads list I was on before changing. However, my books are being borrowed quite a lot. Still, I wonder if I'd have even more borrows if I was also still on that list...I wish they would put me back on. I emailed them twice.


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Don't want to hijack the thread, but just I've just come back from a Writers' Circle meeting. There were about 35 members present and I showed them the cover and asked what genre they thought the book was. Most weren't sure (so this would fit in with general fiction), a few thought romance, and one perhaps a thriller. But not one of them associated it with erotica. They were quite shocked when I told them that the book was mistakenly being classed as erotica. They were mixed ages, but tending to be over 40 years and about equal male and female.
> Maybe we're all innocents in SA .


I suspect this might be a case of cultural differences, which make something that looks like a regular old romance in South Africa look like erotica elsewhere. There is a reason trad publishers often have different covers for different countries/territories and that's because taste and aesthetics are different.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Update - I've been convinced to change the cover of Headmaster.  The graphic artist will be working on it in the next few weeks.

*Keyword update.*

Someone is developing software for a 'reverse keyword search' 
For Victorian Historical Romance the five most often searched terms are:
Top 5 Words Used in Best Seller Titles:
1. book 2. brides 3. mail 4. order 5. bride

I find this surprising for Historical romance, but don't know how accurate his software is if it's still in development.


----------



## Evenstar

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Update - I've been convinced to change the cover of Headmaster.  The graphic artist will be working on it in the next few weeks.
> 
> *Keyword update.*
> 
> Someone is developing software for a 'reverse keyword search'
> For Victorian Historical Romance the five most often searched terms are:
> Top 5 Words Used in Best Seller Titles:
> 1. book 2. brides 3. mail 4. order 5. bride
> 
> I find this surprising for Historical romance, but don't know how accurate his software is if it's still in development.


I think that is for a very specific pinpointed time in History. It will probably be an American search. Cowboys, Ranchers, that kind of historical romance, because mail order brides was never really a thing in England.

But I don't find it that surprising because I think it carries a lot of "wish fulfilment" themes and I've seen quite a few of these when searching in the romance category.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Update - I've been convinced to change the cover of Headmaster.  The graphic artist will be working on it in the next few weeks.
> 
> *Keyword update.*
> 
> Someone is developing software for a 'reverse keyword search'
> For Victorian Historical Romance the five most often searched terms are:
> Top 5 Words Used in Best Seller Titles:
> 1. book 2. brides 3. mail 4. order 5. bride
> 
> I find this surprising for Historical romance, but don't know how accurate his software is if it's still in development.


This is pretty much what kindle spy will tell you, BUT, if you think about it, it's useless. If millions are searching that terms, how many books are showing up? It is probably so HUGE a number, our book will be buried at page 500 or something. What are the chances that those keywords will get you on page 1?

It's good to know what readers are looking for, but you need something just popular enough to give your book visibility.


----------



## AnonWriter

Joseph J Bailey said:


> Based on my experience, commas are not needed after terms to get into specific keyword based categories.
> 
> Using one of my books as an example and a keyword string without commas, the book is in the following categories:
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Myths & Legends > Asian
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Epic
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Metaphysical & Visionary
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Myths & Legends > Asian
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Steampunk
> 
> I hope this helps!


That's amazing.

What is your string of keywords, if I may ask?


----------



## AngelaQuarles

Thank you everyone!

After reading this (all the pages) I went in mid-week and changed my keywords, some for searchability and some to get in certain categories, and while it took about 2 days to really kick in as far as results, the difference is night and day! My sales shot up and I was also able to get into some categories which you can't select for in the category box (like New Adult)

For my time travel romance I chose: historical romantic comedy, Royalty & Aristocrats, Ada Lovelace, time travel love story, historical fantasy, victorian historical romance, paranormal romance fantasy romance humor humorous

And my categories are:

Books > Romance > Romantic Comedy
Books > Romance > Time Travel
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Historical
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Romantic Comedy <-- got in this via the keywords
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Time Travel
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Historical

for my new adult steampunk romance I chose: historical fantasy, alternative history, new adult, romantic comedy, Jack the Ripper romance suspense, victorian historical romance, reporter love story southern humor humour humorous

Books > Literature & Fiction
Books > Romance > Fantasy
Books > Romance > New Adult & College
Books > Romance > Romantic Comedy
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Steampunk
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Fantasy
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > New Adult & College <-- via keywords
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Romantic Comedy <--via keywords
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > New Adult & College <--emailed KDP to get in this one before I knew I could do it via keywords
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Steampunk


----------



## AYClaudy

So by looking at the "Look for similar Items by category" feature, does that show all your categories? Because mine is missing a few that should be there given my key words (like new adult)?


----------



## AngelaQuarles

AYClaudy said:


> So by looking at the "Look for similar Items by category" feature, does that show all your categories? Because mine is missing a few that should be there given my key words (like new adult)?


As far as my understanding goes, yep, that's the area that shows what categories you are in. Before I knew my keywords could affect category, I did email KDP to ask me to put me in one of them, so you could try that. Maybe me asking that made it so I appeared in the other NA categories when I did they keyword change? Do you have new adult as its own keyword with nothing else with it?


----------



## AYClaudy

Angela Quarles said:


> As far as my understanding goes, yep, that's the area that shows what categories you are in. Before I knew my keywords could affect category, I did email KDP to ask me to put me in one of them, so you could try that. Maybe me asking that made it so I appeared in the other NA categories when I did they keyword change? Do you have new adult as its own keyword with nothing else with it?


I played and played with my keywords and I finally got it right! For whatever reason categories would show when I used trigger words withing phrases for everything but New Adult. Once I put that in its own , , it appeared. But everything else is a jumbled string and I have went from 3 categories to:

Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Contemporary Women
Books > Romance > New Adult & College
Books > Romance > Romantic Suspense
Books > Romance > Sports
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Women's Fiction
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > New Adult & College
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Psychological
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Romance
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Mystery & Suspense > Suspense
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > New Adult & College
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Sports

I also used advice from here and searched for the smallest category that could apply to my book and made sure I got in that!! This all just went live today so hopefully something good can come of it!

You all are fantastic for being soo helpful and sharing!


----------



## Holly A Hook

How long does it normally take for your book to show up in the new search results?  I tried some new keyword phrases 2-3 weeks ago (all phrases separated by commas) and my book Twisted hasn't showed up in any of the same search results yet.  Am I missing something?  I do have the keywords in my description as well.  

I'm using this format:  word word word,  word word, etc.


----------



## crow.bar.beer

Holly A Hook said:


> How long does it normally take for your book to show up in the new search results? I tried some new keyword phrases 2-3 weeks ago (all phrases separated by commas) and my book Twisted hasn't showed up in any of the same search results yet. Am I missing something? I do have the keywords in my description as well.


Through how many pages of results are you looking? Sales affect how high you rank for the respective keywords, so if it's a competitive keyword, it might take a certain amount of sales before you'll find your books on the first couple pages.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Holly A Hook said:


> How long does it normally take for your book to show up in the new search results? I tried some new keyword phrases 2-3 weeks ago (all phrases separated by commas) and my book Twisted hasn't showed up in any of the same search results yet. Am I missing something? I do have the keywords in my description as well.
> 
> I'm using this format: word word word, word word, etc.


I'd like to know the answer to this, too. Seems like the search results engine might not churn keyword search lists as frequently as other lists.

One day ago, I typed "Apollo" into the Amazon books search bar. That provided the following suggestions:

Apollo 13
Apollo 11
Apollo program
Apollo space program
Apollo missions
Apollo spacecraft
Apollo space missions

I already used the first 2 suggestions as keywords (and in my books' sub-titles) and the books appear on the 2nd and 3rd pages respectively of the search results. So I put the other 5 suggestions into the keyword field for my book (#Houston69: Apollo 11 - When Men Walked on the Moon). So far, none of those keywords brings up the book even in the first 10 pages of results for each keyword.

But it's only been a day. Would I not be right to think that those keywords should bring up my books near the top of searches eventually? I say this because looking at the books that do come up, most of them would not have those keywords in their metadata.

I just typed "anaxygstypertiny" into the Amazon books search bar. The search engine found no results. So I am pondering adding that as one of my book's keywords. If I were to do so, what do you think would happen? Shouldn't that tell us how long it takes for the search engine to update its suggestions?

Philip


----------



## Lydniz

Philip Gibson said:


> I just typed "anaxygstypertiny" into the Amazon books search bar. The search engine found no results. So I am pondering adding that as one of my book's keywords. If I were to do so, what do you think would happen?


I think the internet would explode.


----------



## Sever Bronny

jakedfw said:


> Jan, if you really want objective feedback. Spend $10 or $20 on a Google Consumer survey. Upload the cover. Provide like 10 genre choices that it may fit, and ask people which one it is.
> 
> http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/home


Holy cow, this exists!


----------



## eleanorberesford

Sever Bronny said:


> Holy cow, this exists!


You speak my mind.


----------



## Holly A Hook

Sweet Amber said:


> Through how many pages of results are you looking? Sales affect how high you rank for the respective keywords, so if it's a competitive keyword, it might take a certain amount of sales before you'll find your books on the first couple pages.


I'm not appearing at all. The categories I chose have only 100 to 300 results, so I was able to scroll through the entire list. I'd understand if it took a few days or so for my book to appear, but it's been close to 3 weeks. The keyword phrases do seem to work with my free book, however, which has been around longer and seems to be getting a few more downloads since adding the phrases.


----------



## C.A. Bryers

Using the method in the OP, should I be using genre in each keyword, for example: "blah blah science fiction fantasy blah blah book, blah blah science fiction fantasy blah..." Thought maybe that would ping results higher if the genre someone searched for was in the specific block of their search, or am I just wasting keyword space? Ran out of room with six keywords my stuffing got so...stuffed.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

C.A. Bryers said:


> Using the method in the OP, should I be using genre in each keyword, for example: "blah blah science fiction fantasy blah blah book, blah blah science fiction fantasy blah..." Thought maybe that would ping results higher if the genre someone searched for was in the specific block of their search, or am I just wasting keyword space? Ran out of room with six keywords my stuffing got so...stuffed.


It's my understanding that repeating keywords is a waste of characters. I do repeat some, but ONLY if I don't need the characters for anything.


----------



## ufwriter

Okay, so if I want mine to show up in both coming of age and mystery & detective under the YA fantasy category, I can go: "YA paranormal coming of age detective" and this will work? Instead of putting "coming of age" and "detective" in?


----------



## Mark E. Cooper

CadyVance said:


> Okay, so if I want mine to show up in both coming of age and mystery & detective under the YA fantasy category, I can go: "YA paranormal coming of age detective" and this will work? Instead of putting "coming of age" and "detective" in?


Here is what MUST go in to get one of those cats. Teen & Young Adult Keywords: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A1XEN0SRCO1KPB

But you have to be in the correct main cats for them to work


----------



## ufwriter

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Here is what MUST go in to get one of those cats. Teen & Young Adult Keywords: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A1XEN0SRCO1KPB
> 
> But you have to be in the correct main cats for them to work


Thanks! I'm in the right main cats for them, but at the moment I have all of the keywords separated out into their own instead of stuffing them.


----------



## AngelaQuarles

AYClaudy said:


> I played and played with my keywords and I finally got it right! For whatever reason categories would show when I used trigger words withing phrases for everything but New Adult. Once I put that in its own , , it appeared. But everything else is a jumbled string


Yay, glad it worked!!


----------



## 67499

This thread shows me I'm doing everything wrong with keywords and have to start over. But am at a loss as to discover the most _effective_ keywords to use for my war novels. Can anyone give me some pointers as to how to beg, borrow, steal or develop them?


----------



## desamo

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> But when I searched for *family saga* my book didn't appear .
> However, when I searched for *family sagas novels fiction* it was on the first page of 608 results .
> 
> I've now added *family saga* and* novel* to my keywords.


It's interesting to me that *family saga* returns a different number of results with different categories on the left than *family sagas* (by one book, but the different categories is interesting). Searching both in quotes returns the same number of hits (2,816).

*family saga* (5,417 hits) includes Romance Collections and Anthologies, but *family sagas* axes that category and instead includes African American Women's Fiction. So, important distinction for affected writers on visibility.

Note: I'm searching only in Kindle store.


----------



## desamo

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Oh .
> It started out with the title 'A stallion in the fillies stable' but everyone said that was definitely too much like erotica, so I thought 'With the Headmaster's Approval' was much less so. He's the first male headmaster in a girls' school and stirs things up and nothing can be done without his approval, so I thought it was quite apt .


The suit/men's accessories cover says e-rom or erotica to me, too, especially when combined with the title. See:

_Hudson_ by Laurelin Paige, Crossfire series by Sylvia Day, _The Billion Dollar Bad Boy_ by Jackie Ashenden-those are a few that happen to be on my iPad.


----------



## Evenstar

Steven Hardesty said:


> This thread shows me I'm doing everything wrong with keywords and have to start over. But am at a loss as to discover the most _effective_ keywords to use for my war novels. Can anyone give me some pointers as to how to beg, borrow, steal or develop them?


Send me a link to your book and I'll have a look for you if you like


----------



## BB Wynter

Thank you so much for this wonderful advice


----------



## CoraBuhlert

Just wanted to give you a heads up that sales on one of the books where I changed the keywords notably increased.


----------



## C.A. Bryers

Evenstar said:


> Send me a link to your book and I'll have a look for you if you like


Could you look at mine as well? I'm brand spankin' new (launched Sunday), and I don't think I've had any sales generated outside of my little circle of FB followers. It's very early, I know, but thought I might have a couple sales that I couldn't trace to someone I know one way or another.


----------



## JGC

C.A. Bryers said:


> Could you look at mine as well? I'm brand spankin' new (launched Sunday), and I don't think I've had any sales generated outside of my little circle of FB followers. It's very early, I know, but thought I might have a couple sales that I couldn't trace to someone I know one way or another.


Hi C.A Bryers,

My books new out too, I think it's a case of being patient until the Amazon algorithms kick in. I've just changed my keywords and am looking forward to seeing what sort of results I get. Did you send your book off to any reviewers?

John


----------



## Evenstar

C.A. Bryers said:


> Could you look at mine as well? I'm brand spankin' new (launched Sunday), and I don't think I've had any sales generated outside of my little circle of FB followers. It's very early, I know, but thought I might have a couple sales that I couldn't trace to someone I know one way or another.


Sure, is it the one in your signature?


----------



## Brian Olsen

Brian Olsen said:


> Thanks for this post - I've been terrible with keywords, not doing much more than using Amazon's recommended terms to get into the right categories. I made a huge change yesterday after reading this. For the first book in my series, I went from these keywords:
> 
> murder, fun, New York City, gay and lesbian, urban, humor, artificial intelligence
> 
> To these:
> 
> contemporary modern New York City Manhattan Brooklyn urban science fiction thriller technothriller free, fun funny humor comedy light, lesbian LGBT homosexual bisexual drag queen gay lead protagonist main character, evil murder killer corporations, AI artificial intelligence singularity, brainwash brainwashing mind control, creepy eerie scary twentysomething adventure roommate friends alcohol
> 
> Went live yesterday, no change yet. Same average number of downloads, still in the same categories, still ranking on the top free lists for Technothrillers and Science Fiction Adventure. Haven't tested any searches yet, but I'm going to try to get to that in the next few days. I'll repost if I see a bump!


Just realized I never reported back! Within a few days of changing my keywords (as described above), I saw a spike in downloads that hasn't gone away. I was averaging about 8 a day or so before, now I'd say I average closer to thirty. So, thanks, Evenstar!

My categories didn't change, although there was a curious addition to them just a few days ago:

Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Technothrillers
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Technothrillers
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > LGBT

The top four were my categories before and after the keywords change, but Sci Fi > LGBT just appeared a day or two ago. The book's page also started showing me at #2 in that category (on the free listings). I didn't make any more changes to keywords, so I'm wondering if an algorithm just got around to finding me, or maybe it's a new subcat?

In any event, I made similar keyword changes to all my books after that initial surge. Sales increased on books two and three in the series, from one or two a week to one or two a day. (Although I don't know if that's directly because of the keyword change, or indirectly because of the bump for the free first book.) My short story is in Kindle Unlimited, and I saw a spike in that as well, up to a couple borrows a week (up from zero!). I'm sold!


----------



## Dactyl

I may have missed it in this thread, but I have seen no mention of the fact that different search engines produce different results from identical keywords (technically search arguments). Personally, when I go looking for a website (or maybe a book to read), I will start with my default search engine (Google), but after looking at the results and changing my search arguments to try again (and maybe again), I will do much the same using (in the following order): Bing, DuckDuckGo, and Yahoo. DuckDuckGo is a search engine that won't track you. If I decide to look for a book on germ warfare, for instance, I will use DuckDuckGo only so I don't get my digital camera turned on from a government spook.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Brian, those are awesome results.


----------



## Evenstar

Catherine Gardiner said:


> First time I have read this post (it is great btw  ) and I think I have mine all wrong but right at the same time if that makes any sense.
> 
> My keywords are:
> 
> Paranormal fantasy, Vampires, Werewolves, teen, young adult supernatural mystery, sisters, amnesia
> 
> Should I keep vampire & werewolves separate keywords or join them together? Also if I do join them together do I write out and or will & suffice?
> 
> They are probably really dumb questions, right.


Nothing wrong with your keywords as such, but you are wasting huge amount of characters that are not being used! Why so few?

Throw *Paranormal Fantasy Vampires Werewolves Supernatural Mystery* together as ONE keyword, then move on to *Teen teenager young adult* and all other relevant words as your next keyword and so on. You are not capitalising it right now and so they won't be doing you any favours.


----------



## Evenstar

Catherine Gardiner said:


> Thank you. You have been very helpful  I think I get keywords now I wish I had read your post earlier.
> 
> Now I just have to decide whether I should change one of my categories from FICTION > Occult & Supernatural to FICTION > Fantasy > Paranormal


Do you want to PM me a link to your book and I'll have a look for you? Don't feel you have to, just offering to help


----------



## ufwriter

Evenstar, would you mind if I asked for your help? I'm really having trouble figuring out what to do. Honestly, I feel like keywords are a math equation I just cannot solve.


----------



## matt44west

OK, this breaks it down well. I'm all wrong in my keywords... Thank you!


----------



## Evenstar

CadyVance said:


> Evenstar, would you mind if I asked for your help? I'm really having trouble figuring out what to do. Honestly, I feel like keywords are a math equation I just cannot solve.


No problem Cady, just let me know which book and what you're using at the moment and what genre you are trying to hit?


----------



## C.A. Bryers

Evenstar said:


> Sure, is it the one in your signature?


Yes, it is. I can PM you what I have as far as my haphazard attempt at keyword stuffing as well if you'd like. And thanks very much!



JGC said:


> Hi C.A Bryers,
> 
> My books new out too, I think it's a case of being patient until the Amazon algorithms kick in. I've just changed my keywords and am looking forward to seeing what sort of results I get. Did you send your book off to any reviewers?
> 
> John


I haven't sent any out yet, but it's on my to-do list. Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll have a list of review sites to shoot it off to and see if any bite. Thanks for the tip about the algorithms. Very much a newbie at all this stuff, so kind of diving in head first.


----------



## Evenstar

C.A. Bryers said:


> Yes, it is. I can PM you what I have as far as my haphazard attempt at keyword stuffing as well if you'd like. And thanks very much!
> 
> I haven't sent any out yet, but it's on my to-do list. Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll have a list of review sites to shoot it off to and see if any bite. Thanks for the tip about the algorithms. Very much a newbie at all this stuff, so kind of diving in head first.


Yes, send over. I'll try to do today or tomorrow

Cady and Catherine, I have yours too


----------



## KatrinaAbbott

I think the more you tinker, the more things can get messed up. I had my permafree in YA Contemp Romance and YA Humorous stories. It placed well in the latter (the former is a very crowded category) so I thought I would switch out the YA Love and Romance cat with one about Friendships. So I did that and now it's fallen out of YA Humorous stories, even though I didn't touch that category AND still have a very stuffed keyword field (still with humor, comedy, etc.). So I'm not sure what to do about that other than stick it back in YA Romance (Love and Romance or whatever it is on the dashboard). 

The KDP post on keywords is only marginally helpful (though thank you for posting - it's a good place to start) because it skips over so many categories. I wish they had some sort of master list with everything. I don't mind wading through a ton of stuff - much easier than the fairy dust guessing game.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

One sale and one borrow got me into the top #100 when I added 'British' to my keywords  

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #223,003 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#76 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > British


----------



## JGC

Hi Evenstar, thanks for starting this thread, it's been a big help.


----------



## Jordan Rivet

I just want to add another round of thanks to this thread! I followed your advice and stuffed up my keywords about a week ago. It helped my search results, but I was still only appearing in two categories, Science Fiction > Dystopian and Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic. These are the categories I originally selected, but I couldn't figure out why adding keyword chains like "sea adventure action science fiction" wasn't getting me into Sea Adventures and Action & Adventure. Well, today I switched from the Dystopian category to Action & Adventure and I'm now seeing that keyword magic in action! Here are my new categories  

Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thriller & Suspense
Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Romance
Books > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Sea Adventures
Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thriller
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Romance
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Action & Adventure > Sea Adventures
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Dystopian
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic

I had been afraid I would drop out of the Dystopian category, but it seems that keywords are keeping me there. Now I just wish I had done this before my Countdown last week. I would have made at least one Top 100 list!

Thanks, Evenstar and everyone else who added tips here.


----------



## Evenstar

Catherine Gardiner said:


> Evenstar - You are an star.
> 
> I already have a small update to share. I updated my keywords at 5:30 pm (UK time) and my book was live again at 9:15 pm. So, it only took three hours and 45 minutes.
> 
> Now on with the update:
> 
> Ranking #534,750 Paid in Kindle Store (17th Feb 2015 - 5:30 pm UK)
> 
> Ranking #534,704 Paid in Kindle Store (17th Feb 2015 - 10:30 pm UK)
> 
> The Categories I am in now (17th Feb 2015 - 10:30 pm)
> 
> Books > Literature & Fiction
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Coming of Age
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
> 
> All those are new categories for me as before I was only in four which were:
> 
> Books>Horror>Occult
> Books>Teen & Young Adult >Horror
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks >Horror>Occult
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks >Teen & Young Adult >Horror
> 
> So, at the time of writing this post I am very happy (I am even crying happy tears) and truly don't how to thank you, Evenstar, for all your help.


I'm so glad the new keywords worked out for you  Hope you get a big increase in sales to with all your lovely new categories x


----------



## antares

Read all 17 pages of this thread.

I changed my keywords on one title based on the suggestions I read here. Before the change, my work was listed in three (3) categories. After the change, I find it listed in nine (9).

Looks good from here.
+++++ 
Changed keywords on another book. Went from seven (7) categories to ten (10). 
+++++ 
Have one sale since I changed keywords. No sales on that book in the previous month.

The keywords are the only change. Not enough to infer causation, but the correlation is there. 
+++++ 
Heart of Stone is divided into 3 parts with a prelude, first interlude (between parts 1 and 2), second interlude (between parts 2 and 3), and postlude. Each division takes its name from the city where the action takes place.

When I search Amazon for the city only, Heart of Stone comes up in the first 100 titles. In three instances, it comes up on the first page. When I search in combination with another term, it consistently comes up on the first page.

Thank you, Evenstar.


----------



## Eva Lefoy

okay I'm having loads of trouble right now with multi-author anthologies. so far volume 1 has sci-fi erotic romance, gay historical erotic romance, MFF erotic menage, loads of paranormal erotic romance, some UF/vampire erotic romance, asian multicultural interracial bdsm/kink, rock star romance, geek romance, werewolf/shifer romance and contemporary erotica.

help!

even if I stuff all day long, how do I possibly cover all of that? is there a thread that says how many characters I have total? Which ones to pick as the all important top seven? that's a judgment call IMO. Erotic or erotica is def a must, romance probably, paranormal is a biggie for sure. How can I get the most bang for my effort?

also, book 2 is just about out. there is a similar, yet different mix of stories there as well.

one of the authors provided me with keywords she got off of Kindle Samurai and our ratings tanked. I redid them and used the following but i bet they could be better:

BDSMerotica romance series
scifi erotic romance
shifter erotic romance series
mm erotic romance 
erotic romance box sets
paranormal romance sets
shifter menage erotica

http://www.amazon.com/Sexy-Erotic-Romance-Box-Sets-ebook/dp/B00SVE1MKO/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Questin: when will i run out of space? Can I stuff more? I need more!


----------



## Eva Lefoy

Sandra K. Williams said:


> You're limited to 400 characters. Any words after 400 characters get cut off.


aha! thank you!!


----------



## Eva Lefoy

Evenstar said:


> There is still a limit. You can only have so many words in each 'keyword' and only so many characters over all before it cuts you off. I find about five or six words per 'keyword' to be about right.


but you only get 400 characters total, right? so that's too many words i think


----------



## Eva Lefoy

Mercia McMahon said:


> Thanks for this post. Due to it I redid all my books and now a search for "Pacific North West Japanese" has Seattle in Shorts sitting proudly at the top. Of course that is because I meant to type what most people do "Pacific Northwest," but the alternative spelling helped. Prior to reading this post Pacific North West was not one of my keywords.


Yep i was going to mention this. spell like readers spell. they don't spell like we do. for instance i'd never write BDSMerotica in a search term but somebody does


----------



## Evenstar

Eva Lefoy said:


> but you only get 400 characters total, right? so that's too many words i think


Depends how long the words are!  A lot of my keywords are stuff like: love kiss bad boy girl first time, so they don't take up a lot of characters but get me into a lot of search terms.

I would recommend you put in everything you listed and then just keep going with anything else you can think of until you run out of space.

Also this is only 266 characters and you could lose half those commas and all the filler words (like "and" and "some") so that's a good starting point :
sci-fi erotic romance, gay historical erotic romance, MFF erotic menage, loads of paranormal erotic romance, some UF/vampire erotic romance, asian multicultural interracial bdsm/kink, rock star romance, geek romance, werewolf/shifer romance and contemporary erotica.


----------



## Eva Lefoy

Thanks I'll work on that. I was shocked to see I'd only used half of them. I have more room! yay!


----------



## Lottie

This thread is SO helpful. I had no idea keywords were so complicated! I'm working on creating new ones right now. 

I'm just a tad bit confused about getting a book to show up in a specific category. My book is paranormal romance, so to get it to show up in that category, I need to type in "paranormal romance" followed by a comma, correct? So if I type in a long string of words without a comma (for example: paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery), it might not be categorized properly? If I'm right on this (and I think there's a pretty high chance that I'm not), that means I need to make my keywords like this:

paranormal romance, paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery

Or am I understanding this incorrectly?


----------



## Gregg Bell

I am so psyched out by keywords. I have been reading this amazing post for hours and a little bit of hope is seeping back into me. I have my first advertising promotion coming up 3/2/15 thru 3/6/15 and I know my keywords could use a vast improvement. I am in a couple of the categories I would like to be in via the 'non-classifiable' requesting from KDP route, but all in all I am in so few categories. Two questions: 1) Having my promo so close (and I am _very_ nervous about it coming off without any huge hitches) would I be better off waiting until after the promo to start tweaking the keywords? (Several people have said it has taken weeks to see the results of their tweaking.) 2) People have said if you have few sales (which is me) that it's hard to show up in the first few pages in searches (even after the keyword stuffing). Well, I'm in as I said very few categories but they are pretty small. Maybe I'd be better staying in them until after the promo? (And I don't know if I'm dreaming or not, but what I'm afraid of is that the promo will work great and I could have been in all these great categories and I won't be.)


----------



## writer-artist-mom

Sorry for the noob question, but I don't have time to read this entire thread. How can I find which categories my book is in after updating keywords?


----------



## Jena H

I've monitored this thread since it began, and while I think there is merit to tweaking and fine-tuning keywords, I think that, like so many other pieces of advice we read, what works for one might not work for all.

However, I'm all about keeping an open mind in looking for ways to increase visibility, and it sounds like others have been able to do just that by working with keywords, so hurray for them!    For myself, I'm on the verge of publishing a new project--non-fiction--and can't find the right category.  I've found similar books that seem to be doing pretty well in the niche categories.  
  Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Humor & Entertainment > Television > Guides & Reviews
  Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Humor & Entertainment > Television > History & Criticism

I don't know how to get into the "humor & entertainment" category.  The Humor category has no relevant options and seems to deal mainly with things like jokes and stand-up routines.  The closest I've been able to come so far is 
  PERFORMING ARTS > Television > Guides & Reviews

Obviously I've put "TV television humor entertainment" in my keywords, along with other pointers to the subject in question.  I wonder if that will be sufficient to get mine into the "Humor & Entertainment > Television > " categories with the other book.

(Edited to fix typo.)


----------



## Evenstar

Lottie said:


> This thread is SO helpful. I had no idea keywords were so complicated! I'm working on creating new ones right now.
> 
> I'm just a tad bit confused about getting a book to show up in a specific category. My book is paranormal romance, so to get it to show up in that category, I need to type in "paranormal romance" followed by a comma, correct? So if I type in a long string of words without a comma (for example: paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery), it might not be categorized properly? If I'm right on this (and I think there's a pretty high chance that I'm not), that means I need to make my keywords like this:
> 
> paranormal romance, paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery
> 
> Or am I understanding this incorrectly?


The comma debate rages on. I like to use them, others think they are a waste of characters. But you most definitely do NOT need to repeat keywords as above. My advice would be yes, put paranormal romance and then a comma, but don't put it again that really is a waste


----------



## Lottie

Evenstar said:


> The comma debate rages on. I like to use them, others think they are a waste of characters. But you most definitely do NOT need to repeat keywords as above. My advice would be yes, put paranormal romance and then a comma, but don't put it again that really is a waste


Awesome -- thanks! Now I'll have more keywords to input! Even with having multiple instances of "paranormal romance" in my keywords, I've managed to make my book number 4 out of 857 when you search "paranormal romance ghost adventure" or number 3 for "paranormal romance spirit adventure." I'm still testing some of my keywords, but I'm really happy with those results. This method definitely works!


----------



## PictureBookTom

Thankyou Evenstar for your most illuminating post. I am odd and not yet a star! Are you saying that as long as there is no comma, you can keyword string forever eg after seventh keyword?


----------



## ML-Larson

I think this is precisely why I saw my sales double last month over January, and why they're already looking to overtake February.  I'd been treating keywords like words, but Amazon doesn't seem to know what a keyword is.  When I started just loading up as many key terms as possible into the field without using any commas, and just going until I ran out of space, I started seeing my own books in searches when I was looking for things to read.

It's probably breaking some sort of rule somewhere, but hey, it's working for me.


----------



## ML-Larson

Lottie said:


> This thread is SO helpful. I had no idea keywords were so complicated! I'm working on creating new ones right now.
> 
> I'm just a tad bit confused about getting a book to show up in a specific category. My book is paranormal romance, so to get it to show up in that category, I need to type in "paranormal romance" followed by a comma, correct? So if I type in a long string of words without a comma (for example: paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery), it might not be categorized properly? If I'm right on this (and I think there's a pretty high chance that I'm not), that means I need to make my keywords like this:
> 
> paranormal romance, paranormal romance ghost spirit love adventure mystery
> 
> Or am I understanding this incorrectly?


In my experience, you don't need to put a comma anywhere. I just rambled on in my keywords, putting them in as I thought of them, and my books are all where they should be, category-wise. The one I uploaded last night is in

Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Mythology & Folk Tales
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Fairy Tales
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Historical
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Myths & Legends > Norse & Viking
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Sword & Sorcery

commas are only an extra six characters, though. If you absolutely need that extra six-letter word, then leave them out. Otherwise, they're optional.


----------



## skyle

ML-Larson said:


> I think this is precisely why I saw my sales double last month over January, and why they're already looking to overtake February. I'd been treating keywords like words, but Amazon doesn't seem to know what a keyword is. When I started just loading up as many key terms as possible into the field without using any commas, and just going until I ran out of space, I started seeing my own books in searches when I was looking for things to read.
> 
> It's probably breaking some sort of rule somewhere, but hey, it's working for me.


They seriously doubled? Just from changing keywords? January is normally my best month with Feb in a steady decline.


----------



## ML-Larson

skyle said:


> They seriously doubled? Just from changing keywords? January is normally my best month with Feb in a steady decline.


More than, overall. Changing the keywords was the only change I'd made, and it definitely made a difference. I just wish Amazon gave us analytics so I knew which keywords were the ones that got the most traffic.


----------



## MTM

Evenstar, I need help with both COVERT DREAMS and DEADLY EYES. I've made a bit of progress using the info. you have so kindly offered here, but I still don't feel that I am reaching my full potential.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

I have read the first several pages of this thread and the last several so apologies if I'm repeating something that was already said in the middle. Here are some things I've discovered about keywords:

1.Amazon recommends against this (but doesn't forbid it) but if your title is/has a meaningful search term, I recommend repeating that in the key words. As an example, my book New World Orders only sells single digits per month these days and when I searched the kindle store for "new world order" or "new world orders", the book would come up on the third page. However, after I added new world order to my search terms, it started coming up on the first page. If new world order were not a search term anyone would use, it wouldn't be worth doing, but in this case it is.

2.Here's the Amazon KDP link indicating what keywords you need in order to get in certain categories. It's down the page under Categories with keywords requirements:
https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A200PDGPEIQX41

3.Note that keywords help you with more than just categories. They also help you with the "Refine By" areas on the left menu. Try this - go to Amazon and browse the kindle store and select mystery thriller and suspense (don't put anything in the search box). You'll see underneath where you selected that on the left it says Refine By and you can select certain Characters and Moods. Some genres have no Refine By options and others have them but they're different than those for thrillers. The KDP link I posted tells you what those are. Also, a few of the Refine By options are NOT tied to keywords: "Action-packed" under thrillers is not, for instance. To get that Refine By Mood you have to have Fiction>Action Adventure selected as one of your categories and a Thriller category selected for your other category.

4.To use a keyword to get your book to appear in a sub-category based on keywords, you have to do more than just enter the correct keyword. You also have to have an actual category selected with the correct top level category. If I want my book to appear in Thrillers>Conspiracies, I have to both put conspiracy in my keywords AND make sure at least one of the categories I select is a thrillers category.

5.You can't use keywords to get yourself to appear in a category that can be selected in the categories list on KDP, at least I have not been able to. Only those categories mentioned in that link I posted can be obtained using keywords. So while keywords are a backdoor into getting more than two categories, they only work for categories than cannot be explicitly selected.

6.Aside from keywords targeted at getting you into categories or Refine By options, it's important to try to choose keywords that actually have evidence of being used in searches. You can easily find this out by starting to type it in the search box on Amazon (not sure if this works on touch screen devices but it does on PCs). If Amazon doesn't finish your search term for you before you're done, there's a very good chance that it's not a common search term and there's probably not much benefit in using it. As others have noted, even if it is in the search box you also want to make sure that it or some combination of it and your other search terms brings you to a page that has some decent traffic (a few books that sell "decently" which could be a debate all in itself) but where your book could reasonably make the first page either immediately or with a small sales increase.


----------



## Evenstar

edwardgtalbot said:


> I have read the first several pages of this thread and the last several so apologies if I'm repeating something that was already said in the middle. Here are some things I've discovered about keywords:
> 
> 1.Amazon recommends against this (but doesn't forbid it) but if your title is/has a meaningful search term, I recommend repeating that in the key words. As an example, my book New World Orders only sells single digits per month these days and when I searched the kindle store for "new world order" or "new world orders", the book would come up on the third page. However, after I added new world order to my search terms, it started coming up on the first page. If new world order were not a search term anyone would use, it wouldn't be worth doing, but in this case it is.


That's really interesting! I never thought of that, I just assumed that my title would be my primary search result with keywords coming second. Now I'm off to try adding my title to my keywords and seeing if that makes a difference. Thanks


----------



## Evenstar

MTM said:


> Evenstar, I need help with both COVERT DREAMS and DEADLY EYES. I've made a bit of progress using the info. you have so kindly offered here, but I still don't feel that I am reaching my full potential.


Hiya, PM me the keywords you are using at present for one of the titles and I'll have a look over them for you


----------



## Lydniz

I can't remember if I mentioned it on this thread, but I was told on the phone by someone from Amazon that the blurb and look inside all count towards keywords.


----------



## MTM

Evenstar, I just PMed you my keywords for COVERT DREAMS as you requested. I thank you in advance for your help.


----------



## MarkTH

I'm not sure I understand.  I know that you get to use seven key words for searches.  I use all seven key words for both of my books.  But it's not necessarily a phrase, per se.  I use the Amazon search word categories so that a search for that particular sub genre will return a result for my book.  Am I wrong in how I pick my search categories?


----------



## Caddy

> 5.You can't use keywords to get yourself to appear in a category that can be selected in the categories list on KDP, at least I have not been able to. Only those categories mentioned in that link I posted can be obtained using keywords. So while keywords are a backdoor into getting more than two categories, they only work for categories than cannot be explicitly selected.


Not true. For my thrillers and historical, I am in other categories that are listed categories, even though they don't show up at the bottom of the product page. I know because I searched those categories after putting in the category keyword and my books come up.

And sometimes you even get listed in one of their categories without picking that category, but by using keywords. It happened for my gay m/m romances. I put them in gay fiction and contemporary romance. However, my keywords included short story and gay romance along with many other keywords. You will see those books actually not only show gay fiction and contemporary romance, but gay romance and short stories.

One of my Gastien books have "saga" listed although I didn't choose it as one of the 2 categories. It is a keyword for all of them. All of them do show up in search of saga and family saga. I have no idea why "saga" shows up on the product page for one and not the others.

The same has happened with my House books.

However, I still never did get back in the category for my gay m/m I lost when doing these better keywords, and I pisses me off because It's a great category. I emailed them several times to no avail. Right now they wouldn't be in it anyway, but when I use promotion they certainly qually. Ah, well. Win some, lose some!


----------



## Evenstar

MTM said:


> Evenstar, I just PMed you my keywords for COVERT DREAMS as you requested. I thank you in advance for your help.


Just responded, hope it helps, do let us know x


----------



## MTM

Evenstar said:


> Just responded, hope it helps, do let us know x


Thank you so much. You are a gem!


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Caddy said:


> Not true. For my thrillers and historical, I am in other categories that are listed categories, even though they don't show up at the bottom of the product page. I know because I searched those categories after putting in the category keyword and my books come up.


That's interesting, thanks for sharing! As an example of what I have experienced, I cannot get my book to appear in Thrillers>Technothrillers regardless of whether I put technothrillers in the keywords. Maybe it's a different keyword needed than the actual name of the category. Two questions I'd be curious about:
-Are the keywords causing the book to be placed in the categories are also in your description, not just in the keywords?
-What is the most recent time you have added a keyword and seen a book be put in a "selectable" category as a result of it? That Amazon page I linked to which gives you the keywords that correspond to the categories did not exist three years ago I am sure. I don't know how recently the page was created. I remember right after they lowered us to only having two categories available (2011??), the keywords did not reliably get you into categories. You had to email Amazon or get enough people to give you a certain tag. The fact that one of your books lost its keyword-based category and you can't get it back makes me wonder if the behavior I am seeing is fairly recent. But if you've actually been able to get a book into an otherwise selectable category in the past few months then it is clear that keywords still work for some selectable categories.


----------



## GoingAnon

David S. said:


> You don't get seven keywords; you get six commas. You can put lots of words between the commas. You can also leave out the commas altogether and just have one long string of words.
> 
> Some people have experimented with using five commas to separate the first six keywords, and then just shoving everything else in the seventh. It doesn't appear to matter. As far as anyone can tell, the commas are irrelevant. Short of someone showing some definitive research to the contrary, that appears to be the case.
> 
> The actual limit appears to be the number of characters, not the number of words, and it's around 400 or so. The correct answer is probably somewhere upthread. You may also find the limit if you just keep typing until you hit the end.


David's post sums it up.  This has been an eye-opening and truly helpful thread. Thank you Evenstar!


----------



## Gail Hart

Alix Nichols said:


> This has been an eye-opening and truly helpful thread. Thank you Evenstar!


What Alix said! I was totally clueless about how to select effective keywords. I have a lot of work to do.


----------



## lamaha

I'm slowly reading through this mammoth thread and just wanted to delurk to say THANK YOU to Evenstar and everyone else who has contributed. I have already updated the keywords on my self-published book and if there are any noteworthy results I'll report back. But most of all, Thanks. Most helpful. I've been looking for this kind of advice for ages.


----------



## E L Russell

When I entered paranormal romance witch this came up (the same with to without commas):
1-16 of 4,614 results for Kindle Store : "Paranormal, romance, witch"


----------



## Evenstar

MarkTH said:


> I'm not sure I understand. I know that you get to use seven key words for searches. I use all seven key words for both of my books. But it's not necessarily a phrase, per se. I use the Amazon search word categories so that a search for that particular sub genre will return a result for my book. Am I wrong in how I pick my search categories?


Mark, use all 400 characters for best results


----------



## Darryl Hughes

E L Russell said:


> When I entered paranormal romance witch this came up (the same with to without commas):
> 1-16 of 4,614 results for Kindle Store : "Paranormal, romance, witch"


When you search for paranormal romance one of the search categories on the left side of the page is "paranormal witches & wizards romance", if that helps.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes

For those of you who've tried both which works better? With commas? Or without?

Dee


----------



## Donna White Glaser

Darryl Hughes said:


> For those of you who've tried both which works better? With commas? Or without?
> 
> Dee


It made no difference to mine. None at all.


----------



## Squirmypants

I tried this my perma-free. What's the worst that could happen? People continue to not pay for my freebie? 

Downloads spiked immediately when the changes went live. Amazing. Now I'm going to tinker with my other titles.


----------



## Antara Mann

Nick Stephenson's advice how to deal with keywords is also good. He advises to focus on phrases under 1000 results in his 3 free videos. I somehow disliked the idea of stuffing keywords.


----------



## Kristine McKinley

using advice in here I just updated my keywords on season 1 I've barely sold any copies of it so I don't see what the harm could be. I entered in 400 characters of words that could be applied to the book with no commas. So we'll see what happens. Thanks Evenstar and everyone that has posted in this thread


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Antara Man said:


> Nick Stephenson's advice how to deal with keywords is also good. He advises to focus on phrases under 1000 results in his 3 free videos. I somehow disliked the idea of stuffing keywords.


I use Nick's advice as well. Though I go as high as 2000. Plus I use the exact buyer keywords advice that Nick suggests. It's worked well for me so far. One of the "buyer keywords" for my children's book is "children's animal action & adventure" and as you can see (my book is the one about the "mouseketeer" near the bottom of the list):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_2?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A133140011%2Cn%3A10124607011%2Ck%3Achildren%27s+action+adventure+books&keywords=children%27s+action+adventure+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430429764&rnid=133141011

Using exact "buyer keywords" has gotten me on page one of that particular search term. I don't know about the whole keyword stuffing thing myself. I think it's much more effective to use the exact search terms that people use to search for books they want to buy as your keywords will get you better results then just stuffing as many keywords as you can.

But then again...Whatever works.

Dee


----------



## TromboneAl

Great ideas here, wow.

I'm working my way through all the posts, but the ex-scientist in me is thinking of ways to set up some experiments to test these hypotheses (e.g. order is important) unambiguously.

By including nonsense words, I could eliminate some of the randomness caused by all the millions of books on Amazon.

For one of my books, I could add a keyword (temporarily, of course) of:

grobnicky qickle mlguffs

and for another book, I'd set a keyword of:

grobnicky mlguffs qickle

Then I'd experiment with searches see which one shows up first.

or maybe 

grobnicky qickle mlguffs uioiu rebilli qweww mgartha

Maybe sometime I think about this and design some experiments.


----------



## Sam Rivers

I really liked the OP information so I copied it and pasted it to Word; I saved it to a docx file.  

Then I used 'Send to Kindle' to send it to my Kindle.

When I am working on Amazon Keywords when I am publishing a new book, I can look through her information on my Kindle without having to go back to the original posting.

It is like a little book called Evenstar's Monster Post on Amazon Keywords.


----------



## Evenstar

Wild Rivers said:


> I really liked the OP information so I copied it and pasted it to Word; I saved it to a docx file.
> 
> Then I used 'Send to Kindle' to send it to my Kindle.
> 
> When I am working on Amazon Keywords when I am publishing a new book, I can look through her information on my Kindle without having to go back to the original posting.
> 
> It is like a little book called Evenstar's Monster Post on Amazon Keywords.


That will be 99c please


----------



## Sam Rivers

> That will be 99c please


It shouldn't be priced at least $4.99 due to all the good information.


----------



## Sam Rivers

> use all 400 characters for best results


Do spaces count as characters?


----------



## AnonWriter

Yes. Here's a little character-counting tool I use.

http://www.javascriptkit.com/script/script2/charcount.shtml


----------



## Sam Rivers

> Yes. Here's a little character-counting tool I use.


I was afraid that spaces would count. I use the character counter in Word 2010 and it tells me the number with spaces and without spaces. 400 characters is not a lot so I left out the commas.

I checked your character-counting tool and it would work good for those who don't use word. It gave me the same number of characters as Word.


----------



## Evenstar

Wild Rivers said:


> I was afraid that spaces would count. I use the character counter in Word 2010 and it tells me the number with spaces and without spaces. 400 characters is not a lot so I left out the commas.
> 
> I checked your character-counting tool and it would work good for those who don't use word. It gave me the same number of characters as Word.


Yes, I just paste it from word.

Quite a lot of people have sent me their keywords since this thread started and I am seeing one easy fix over and over that I thought it would obviously be a good idea to reiterate: you don't need to use the same word twice! Some people have it over and over in different search strings. Variations on the word are good - like Wolf, werewolf, werewolves, as they are spelt differently (just putting an S on the end doesnt seem to make any difference) but you dont need the exact same word more than one time.


----------



## Sam Rivers

> you don't need to use the same word twice!


I will check mine over carefully to make sure I don't have any duplicate words.


----------



## TromboneAl

Thanks again for the great info. I'm going to sit down and spend some time with my keywords when I get a chance.

But there's one important statement that I've been thinking about. Here it is:

>you want to find terms that produce under 10,000 hits *but more than just a few hundred*.

It's that last phrase that I'm wondering about. Does it make sense to reject a search phrase that produces under one hundred hits? Check my thinking:

The number of hits one gets is an indication of how many books match that search phrase. It is not an indication of how many people enter that search phrase. That is, it has nothing to to with popularity or frequency of that search.

So, given that, perhaps one should not have a lower limit. The ideal result would be a search phrase that results in a single book appearing: yours.

Is my logic sound?


----------



## Anna Drake

I just used this advice when publishing a new book. The results were amazing. I landed in many more categories than I had the old way. Thank you so much! Now, back to update my old books.


----------



## TromboneAl

metwo said:


> I landed in many more categories than I had the old way. Thank you so much! Now, back to update my old books.


How can I find out what categories I've landed in?


----------



## AnonWriter

They should be listed near the bottom of your amazon book page under:

"Look for Similar Items by Category"


----------



## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> Thanks again for the great info. I'm going to sit down and spend some time with my keywords when I get a chance.
> 
> But there's one important statement that I've been thinking about. Here it is:
> 
> >you want to find terms that produce under 10,000 hits *but more than just a few hundred*.
> 
> It's that last phrase that I'm wondering about. Does it make sense to reject a search phrase that produces under one hundred hits? Check my thinking:
> 
> The number of hits one gets is an indication of how many books match that search phrase. It is not an indication of how many people enter that search phrase. That is, it has nothing to to with popularity or frequency of that search.
> 
> So, given that, perhaps one should not have a lower limit. The ideal result would be a search phrase that results in a single book appearing: yours.
> 
> Is my logic sound?


I'm guessing with a search term with over 10,000 hits like children's books, books for kids, bedtimes stories, paranormal romance, etc, there are so many hits because they are popular genres. Which is good. But that also means that the genres are just flooded by a buh-zillion other titles trying to get noticed and yours will get lost in the shuffle.

The reverse would be true for a search term with under 500 hits. Sure there is less competition, but it also means that the genre is so niche that no one is really searching for it. So your book can become the literary big fish in a small pond.

Dee


----------



## Caddy

Emily Wibberley said:


> They should be listed near the bottom of your amazon book page under:
> 
> "Look for Similar Items by Category"


That's not the only place. You will land in other categories that they don't necessarily list there. You need to search on Amazon by picking "kindle store" and then typing in the search term (keyword, and sometimes combined keywords,so experiment) to see if your book is there. My books are in many categories that aren't listed on the product page, but will be found if customers search for those type of books. And some of my books are listed in categories that ARE sometimes shown on the product page, but aren't necessary being shown on mine.

Here's an example. Gastien is #1 for French Family Saga: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=French+Family+Saga&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3AFrench+Family+Saga
It is also in just plain Family Saga but not on the first page. 
BUt it does not show on product page: http://www.amazon.com/Gastien-Dream-Rowland-Historical-Family-ebook/dp/B005FI62BS/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?ie=UTF8&qid=1430670820&sr=8-1&keywords=gastien

Another, for my pen name for gay m/m romance. Right now the ranking is poor. It is only in Select and sits there getting a few borrows, BUT when I throw about $50 at it the series makes me bank and then some. So, you can see here that if someone types in "Gay Rockstar" here is my Private Performance: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=Gay+Rockstar&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3AGay+Rockstar and the othere in the series are there...but I see my WHere There's Smoke series is also there and they aren't rockers so I better check my keywords! I hope I didn't use rockstar for that series...

Anyway, here is the book's product page. Not a mention of that category on there, but it IS a search term. They also show up for just "rockstar"
http://www.amazon.com/Private-Performance-Sibley-Jackson-Romance-ebook/dp/B00P3DHEUS/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430670969&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Prviate+Performance

ETA: No, I did not use rockstar for Where There's Smoke, but some of the books show up for gay rockstar and rockstar. It must be because Amazon picks up the Author name and maybe they noticed the gay rockstar does appear in some of the books, as he is a friend of theirs. Interesting.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

This topic and keyword stuffing in specific was mentioned on the Joanna Penn podcast interview with Nick Stephenson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdMBnWPmx68

Dee


----------



## TromboneAl

Thanks, Dee. Good video.

In that video, Nick Stephenson says that words in your description (blurb) are used for searching.

I've concluded that that is not true. When I search for words in my descriptions that are unlikely to appear elsewhere, my book does not come up. For example, the words walter cronkite and spacecraft are in my blurb for one of my books. If I search for "walter cronkite spacecraft," only three books come up, and mine is not one of them.

That tells me that *words in the description are irrelevant when it comes to searches*.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that, but I see no other conclusion.


----------



## KelliWolfe

TromboneAl said:


> Thanks, Dee. Good video.
> 
> In that video, Nick Stephenson says that words in your description (blurb) are used for searching.
> 
> I've concluded that that is not true. When I search for words in my descriptions that are unlikely to appear elsewhere, my book does not come up. For example, the words walter cronkite and spacecraft are in my blurb for one of my books. If I search for "walter cronkite spacecraft," only three books come up, and mine is not one of them.
> 
> That tells me that *words in the description are irrelevant when it comes to searches*.
> 
> I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that, but I see no other conclusion.


Nick is utterly wrong. Amazon does not index the book description for search. Period. The End. If he persists in maintaining that long-disproven statement then it makes anything else he has to say about keywords highly suspect. If he doesn't know and understand something that basic (and that easy to verify) regarding how keywords work on Amazon then his advice needs to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Say, the size of Ohio.


----------



## TromboneAl

I just read _Choose Keywords and Sell More Books, _ and that author also says that you should put keywords in your description.

Well I now spent five hours researching keyword selection, and using google adwords (didn't help me much) and other tools. This thread has been the most helpful.

I've concluded that it's an inexact science, in large part because it's hard to judge the success or failure of the keywords you choose.

In any case, these were my keywords prior to my research (for _Contact Us_):

*space, scifi, alien invasion, apocalypse, post apocalyptic fiction, ufo, humorous science fiction*

And here is the new set of keywords I've selected:

*fun science fiction thriller dark comedy, new adult humor outer space, kidnapping adventure, extraterrestrial intelligence life aliens robots invasion, alien invasion apocalypse, teen young adult science fiction aliens, humorous ufo scifi technothriller NASA SETI*

I'm hesitant about "kidnapping adventure," because that's only a small subplot. But there is definitely some kidnapping adventure in there.

I've been doing some experiments with keywords, and am getting some interesting results (for example, with my first set of keywords, searching for "UFO fi" puts my book on the top ("sci-fi" is in the subtitle of the book)). I'll report on those on another thread at some point.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> I just read _Choose Keywords and Sell More Books, _ and that author also says that you should put keywords in your description.
> 
> Well I now spent five hours researching keyword selection, and using google adwords (didn't help me much) and other tools. This thread has been the most helpful.
> 
> I've concluded that it's an inexact science, in large part because it's hard to judge the success or failure of the keywords you choose.
> 
> In any case, these were my keywords prior to my research (for _Contact Us_):
> 
> *space, scifi, alien invasion, apocalypse, post apocalyptic fiction, ufo, humorous science fiction*
> 
> And here is the new set of keywords I've selected:
> 
> *fun science fiction thriller dark comedy, new adult humor outer space, kidnapping adventure, extraterrestrial intelligence life aliens robots invasion, alien invasion apocalypse, teen young adult science fiction aliens, humorous ufo scifi technothriller NASA SETI*
> 
> I'm hesitant about "kidnapping adventure," because that's only a small subplot. But there is definitely some kidnapping adventure in there.
> 
> I've been doing some experiments with keywords, and am getting some interesting results (for example, with my first set of keywords, searching for "UFO fi" puts my book on the top ("sci-fi" is in the subtitle of the book)). I'll report on those on another thread at some point.


I'm sold on keywords. I'm also sold on Nick Stephenson and others who say get your keywords from the search bar and other places that shoppers actually use to look for books they want to buy. Example. I added "kids fantasy books" to my keywords and immediately popped up on page 6 of that keyword search:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_6?rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Akids+fantasy+books&page=6&keywords=kids+fantasy+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431113527

What I'm not sold on is keyword stuffing or just adding any number of keywords/phrases into a keyword and hoping that, because you've covered the waterfront, your book is going to show up. Using exact keyword/search terms gives your book more relevance when it comes to that keyword search.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes

KelliWolfe said:


> Nick is utterly wrong. Amazon does not index the book description for search. Period. The End. If he persists in maintaining that long-disproven statement then it makes anything else he has to say about keywords highly suspect. If he doesn't know and understand something that basic (and that easy to verify) regarding how keywords work on Amazon then his advice needs to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Say, the size of Ohio.


Nick isn't telling you to include keywords in your description just to help with searches on Amazon. He's telling you to include them so that your book(s) will appear on other search engines as well like Google. Remember them? Every article I've read about SEO and Amazon mentions putting keywords in your product description. Every single one. Example:

Seo guide to top rankings on Amazon
http://www.searchenginejournal.com/seos-advanced-guide-top-rankings-amazon/110199/

Getting started with SEO for your products on Amazon
http://www.searchenginejournal.com/e-commerce-101-get-started-seo-products-amazon/106267/

Dee


----------



## KelliWolfe

Darryl Hughes said:


> Nick isn't telling you to include keywords in your description just to help with searches on Amazon. He's telling you to include them so that your book(s) will appear on other search engines as well like Google. Remember them? Every article I've read about SEO and Amazon mentions putting keywords in your product description. Every single one.


That makes a lot more sense - especially if you're selling on sites like B&N and Kobo which don't have keywords. I don't think anyone who owns a Kindle or has an Amazon account is going to go to Google to browse for ebooks - they're going to go straight to Amazon.com. But for the other sites that are search-challenged, yeah, I'll buy into that.

Withdrawn, Your Honor!


----------



## Darryl Hughes

KelliWolfe said:


> That makes a lot more sense - especially if you're selling on sites like B&N and Kobo which don't have keywords. I don't think anyone who owns a Kindle or has an Amazon account is going to go to Google to browse for ebooks - they're going to go straight to Amazon.com. But for the other sites that are search-challenged, yeah, I'll buy into that.
> 
> Withdrawn, Your Honor!




Dee


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Darryl Hughes said:


> Using exact keyword/search terms gives your book more relevance when it comes to that keyword search.


That has not been my experience. For instance, I have found that it doesn't matter whether I put "terrorist" and "novel" as the only two keywords in my list versus a huge list of twenty keywords separated by spaces with terrorist somewhere in the first few and novel somewhere in the last few. It has the exact same spot in the relevance list when I search for "terrorist novel".


----------



## Darryl Hughes

edwardgtalbot said:


> That has not been my experience. For instance, I have found that it doesn't matter whether I put "terrorist" and "novel" as the only two keywords in my list versus a huge list of twenty keywords separated by spaces with terrorist somewhere in the first few and novel somewhere in the last few. It has the exact same spot in the relevance list when I search for "terrorist novel".


Actually the exact Amazon suggested search term for your category (I looked up your book "New World Orders") is "terrorist novels" (also "terrorist thrillers" and "terrorist fiction") not "terrorist novel". When I searched for your book under the exact search term that Amazon itself suggests your book didn't show up. Perhaps you should try using it and see where your book shows up. That little "s" on "novels" making it "terrorist novels" as opposed to "terrorist novel" may seem like a little thing to you and me but could be huge when it comes to Amazon's algorithm since it's an actual search term that they actually suggest to actual folks actually looking to buy what you're trying to sell as compared to just stuffing words into a keyword/search term on a hunch.

Dee


----------



## TromboneAl

I'm doing some experiments that are showing me that keyword stuffing (it sounds spammy/unethical, but it's not) works.

For example, here are my new keywords for _Contact Us_, now active:

fun science fiction thriller dark comedy, new adult humor outer space, kidnapping adventure, extraterrestrial intelligence life aliens robots invasion, alien invasion apocalypse, teen young adult science fiction aliens, humorous ufo scifi technothriller NASA SETI

I'm finding if I run a search that includes three or four words anywhere in my keywords, my book does pretty well, depending on the competition, of course.

For example,

Fun NASA SETI: #1

new adult extraterrestrial life: #1

comedy extraterrestrial life #3
fun extraterrestrial life #1

outer space robots adventure: #7 (beat out by Astronaughty!

science fiction alien adventure I'm on page 4.

Is Order Important? Yes:

science fiction alien apocalypse: I'm #1
science fiction apocalypse alien: I'm #2

My Conclusion: More words, more chances of scoring high. With my thirty-four words (all relevant) I expect to do better than I had with fewer words.

Note: There's a possibility that Amazon is putting my book higher because I look at its page frequently, in which case my conclusions aren't valid. Perhaps someone could try a few of those searches and see if they get the same results.


----------



## KelliWolfe

Darryl Hughes said:


> Actually the exact Amazon suggested search term for your category (I looked up your book "New World Orders") is "terrorist novels" (also "terrorist thrillers" and "terrorist fiction") not "terrorist novel". When I searched for your book under the exact search term that Amazon itself suggests your book didn't show up. Perhaps you should try using it and see where your book shows up. That little "s" on "novels" making it "terrorist novels" as opposed to "terrorist novel" may seem like a little thing to you and me but could be huge when it comes to Amazon's algorithm since it's an actual search term that they actually suggest to actual folks actually looking to buy what you're trying to sell as compared to just stuffing words into a keyword/search term on a hunch.
> 
> Dee


Amazon doesn't search by phrase; they search by individual keyword matches. And they automatically append 's' onto every word to catch the plural versions. You don't have to do it yourself, so you can save all those extra characters for something else. These things are easily verifiable (and have been tested by people in this topic) by anyone with a book in KDP. You don't have to guess. The placement of the words in the search field makes absolutely no difference in the search results - or if it does it's so minimal that no one has ever been able to establish that it exists, which amounts to the same thing. I personally did extensive testing on this before Christmas when I couldn't get a straight answer from any of the SEO guys pushing their books on Amazon keywords as to whether this was the case or not.

My experience is that a whole lot of the SEO guys pushing their products about Amazon keywords are coming in straight out of Google and assuming that Amazon works the same way, without bothering to actually test first. At this point the most complete and up-to-date information on successfully using Amazon keywords is in [ur=http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R6AYHYC]this book[/url] and this topic. The guy who wrote the book participated in the topic and made changes to the book as we clarified issues that he wasn't able to figure out working alone.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> I'm doing some experiments that are showing me that keyword stuffing (it sounds spammy/unethical, but it's not) works.
> 
> For example, here are my new keywords for _Contact Us_, now active:
> 
> fun science fiction thriller dark comedy, new adult humor outer space, kidnapping adventure, extraterrestrial intelligence life aliens robots invasion, alien invasion apocalypse, teen young adult science fiction aliens, humorous ufo scifi technothriller NASA SETI
> 
> I'm finding if I run a search that includes three or four words anywhere in my keywords, my book does pretty well, depending on the competition, of course.
> 
> For example,
> 
> Fun NASA SETI: #1
> 
> new adult extraterrestrial life: #1
> 
> comedy extraterrestrial life #3
> fun extraterrestrial life #1
> 
> outer space robots adventure: #7 (beat out by Astronaughty!
> 
> science fiction alien adventure I'm on page 4.
> 
> Is Order Important? Yes:
> 
> science fiction alien apocalypse: I'm #1
> science fiction apocalypse alien: I'm #2
> 
> My Conclusion: More words, more chances of scoring high. With my thirty-four words (all relevant) I expect to do better than I had with fewer words.
> 
> Note: There's a possibility that Amazon is putting my book higher because I look at its page frequently, in which case my conclusions aren't valid. Perhaps someone could try a few of those searches and see if they get the same results.


But couldn't you have gotten the same result just using the 3-4 word keywords like "alien invasion apocalypse" which is one of the buyer keywords Amazon suggests when you do a search for "alien invasion" without all the stuffing?

Dee


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Darryl Hughes said:


> Actually the exact Amazon suggested search term for your category (I looked up your book "New World Orders") is "terrorist novels" (also "terrorist thrillers" and "terrorist fiction") not "terrorist novel". When I searched for your book under the exact search term that Amazon itself suggests your book didn't show up. Perhaps you should try using it and see where your book shows up. That little "s" on "novels" making it "terrorist novels" as opposed to "terrorist novel" may seem like a little thing to you and me but could be huge when it comes to Amazon's algorithm since it's an actual search term that they actually suggest to actual folks actually looking to buy what you're trying to sell as compared to just stuffing words into a keyword/search term on a hunch.
> 
> Dee


New World Orders is not the book that is a terrorist novel. The two are Alive From New York and Alive From America. And the following keywords: "terrorism terrorist bin Laden novel..." resulted in the exact same search position when I searched on "terrorist novels" as when my keyword was terrorist novels followed by a comma and other keywords. I found similar situations with a couple of other compound keywords. Essentially I found exactly what @KelliWolfe described. I'm not saying I have all the answers and know for sure, but I did dozens of tests over the course of several weeks and I never found the plural (as long is it was a straight "s" plural) or the order making a difference.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

KelliWolfe said:


> My experience is that a whole lot of the SEO guys pushing their products about Amazon keywords are coming in straight out of Google and assuming that Amazon works the same way, without bothering to actually test first. At this point the most complete and up-to-date information on successfully using Amazon keywords is in [ur=http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R6AYHYC]this book[/url] and this topic. The guy who wrote the book participated in the topic and made changes to the book as we clarified issues that he wasn't able to figure out working alone.


Well, I'm not sold on keyword stuffing myself. And most folks on this thread can't agree on using commas or not much less dashes and other things. The advice Nick Stephenson and others give about finding "buyer keywords" using the Amazon search box works well for me.

Here's my point one of the keywords for "Contact Us" was "science fiction alien apocalypse". You'd have to actually type that into the search box yourself because Amazon doesn't suggest it in any form when you start to type the phrase into the search box. But there are several other keywords just as relevant to that book that Amazon suggests to potential buyers that could help them find it just as easily. So why not let Amazon help you find the buyers you want by using the keywords it's actively suggesting to potential buyers? Seems simple enough. Stuffing every possible keyword combination into a keyword (using commas or not) that get you the ame results as the keywords Amazon is suggesting in it's search box seems a waste of time to me.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes

edwardgtalbot said:


> New World Orders is not the book that is a terrorist novel. The two are Alive From New York and Alive From America. And the following keywords: "terrorism terrorist bin Laden novel..." resulted in the exact same search position when I searched on "terrorist novels" as when my keyword was terrorist novels followed by a comma and other keywords. I found similar situations with a couple of other compound keywords. Essentially I found exactly what @KelliWolfe described. I'm not saying I have all the answers and know for sure, but I did dozens of tests over the course of several weeks and I never found the plural (as long is it was a straight "s" plural) or the order making a difference.


Found your book "Alive from America" on page 10 using "terrorist novels". 

Dee


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Darryl Hughes said:


> Well, I'm not sold on keyword stuffing myself. And most folks on this thread can't agree on using commas or not much less dashes and other things. The advice Nick Stephenson and others give about finding "buyer keywords" using the Amazon search box works well for me.
> 
> Here's my point one of the keywords for "Contact Us" was "science fiction alien apocalypse". You'd have to actually type that into the search box yourself because Amazon doesn't suggest it in any form when you start to type the phrase into the search box. But there are several other keywords just as relevant to that book that Amazon suggests to potential buyers that could help them find it just as easily. So why not let Amazon help you find the buyers you want by using the keywords it's actively suggesting to potential buyers? Seems simple enough. Stuffing every possible keyword combination into a keyword (using commas or not) that get you the ame results as the keywords Amazon is suggesting in it's search box seems a waste of time to me.
> 
> Dee


When you say the keywords Amazon is suggesting, do you mean when you start typing in a search box? Speaking for myself, I am using the keywords that appear when I start typing in a search box. It took me a while to track down the best ones (I used kindle samurai for help, but not exclusively) I'm just not concerned about the order of them or whether they're plural, because my test showed that doesn't matter. And I'm not using the whole 400 available characters, because I ran out of relevant terms - from time to time I think of new ones, check them out in the search box, and add them.

Regarding my book, it has sold two copies in the past four months and it is generally between page 7 and 12 in the terrorist novels search. Usually Alive From New York is within a couple pages of it. So that's consistent with what you found.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Caddy said:


> Here's an example. Gastien is #1 for French Family Saga: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=French+Family+Saga&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3AFrench+Family+Saga
> It is also in just plain Family Saga but not on the first page.
> BUt it does not show on product page: http://www.amazon.com/Gastien-Dream-Rowland-Historical-Family-ebook/dp/B005FI62BS/ref=sr_1_1_twi_1_kin?ie=UTF8&qid=1430670820&sr=8-1&keywords=gastien


If you type in *family saga* you get a drop down list.

When I search under Kindle store '*family sagas'* The Breadwinners (A Family Saga of Love, Lust and Betrayal) isn't even listed. But if I search under '*family sagas novels fiction*' it's #3 on the first page.
Now I'm wondering if readers search for just 'family sagas' or they search under 'family sagas novels fiction'. If it's just family sagas, then should I remove 'novel' and 'fiction' from my keywords?


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If you type in *family saga* you get a drop down list.
> 
> When I search under Kindle store '*family sagas'* The Breadwinners (A Family Saga of Love, Lust and Betrayal) isn't even listed. But if I search under '*family sagas novels fiction*' it's #3 on the first page.
> Now I'm wondering if readers search for just 'family sagas' or they search under 'family sagas novels fiction'. If it's just family sagas, then should I remove 'novel' and 'fiction' from my keywords?


I found over 6000 results when I searched on family sagas. Did you check every result page for your book? It may be there, just ranked lower. When I typed in family sagas, novels fiction was recommended as the top appended selection to me, so that is promising as far as that combination goes.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

edwardgtalbot said:


> When you say the keywords Amazon is suggesting, do you mean when you start typing in a search box? Speaking for myself, I am using the keywords that appear when I start typing in a search box. It took me a while to track down the best ones (I used kindle samurai for help, but not exclusively) I'm just not concerned about the order of them or whether they're plural, because my test showed that doesn't matter. And I'm not using the whole 400 available characters, because I ran out of relevant terms - from time to time I think of new ones, check them out in the search box, and add them.
> 
> Regarding my book, it has sold two copies in the past four months and it is generally between page 7 and 12 in the terrorist novels search. Usually Alive From New York is within a couple pages of it. So that's consistent with what you found.


My book hasn't sold a lot of copies either but using the exact keywords like "kids fantasy books" from the Amazon search box has gotten my book on pages 6 or higher and I'm on page one of one of my search terms. All without keyword stuffing.

If Amazon is going to suggest keywords to people with money looking to buy books like mine in my category then you can best believe I'm going to use them to help Amazon help those people with money find my book easier so they can buy it. I'll leave the keyword stuffing alone.

Dee


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

edwardgtalbot said:


> I found over 6000 results when I searched on family sagas. Did you check every result page for your book? It may be there, just ranked lower. When I typed in family sagas, novels fiction was recommended as the top appended selection to me, so that is promising as far as that combination goes.


That might be because I just selected 'novels fiction' and it remembered  It was about fourth or fifth down the list when I first tried it. I went through 16 pages of 'family sagas' to the end without finding The Breadwinners. I'll try other selections.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I noticed that the selections for family saga include:

family sagas in kindle books
family sagas on kindle.

This is when you've already selected Kindle Store

I wonder if it would make a difference if you included *kindle *as a keyword?


----------



## Philip Gibson

TromboneAl said:


> When I search for words in my descriptions that are unlikely to appear elsewhere, my book does not come up. For example, the words walter cronkite and spacecraft are in my blurb for one of my books. If I search for "walter cronkite spacecraft," only three books come up, and mine is not one of them.
> 
> That tells me that *words in the description are irrelevant when it comes to searches*.
> 
> I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that, but I see no other conclusion.


Hi Al,

I just typed "Walter Cronkite spacecraft", into the Amazon search bar and 4 books came up.

Somewhat gratifyingly (I think?), two of them were mine.

But oddly, none of those three words is in my book descriptions. I'm not even sure they're in my key words. Certainly not as that three-word phrase.

Philip


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Darryl Hughes said:


> If Amazon is going to suggest keywords to people with money looking to buy books like mine in my category then you can best believe I'm going to use them to help Amazon help those people with money find my book easier so they can buy it. I'll leave the keyword stuffing alone.


I'm using the keywords they are suggesting. Just not worrying about order or plural because of both my own trial and error and what a number of others on KB have said. I've never seen anyone on KB say NOT to use the keywords Amazon suggests. Just that we can leave out the commas and not worry about word order or plural and be able to use more of the actual search terms we can confirm are used by visitors to Amazon. In theory I'm getting everything you're getting plus the ability to have more than 7 combinations.


----------



## Philip Gibson

Philip Gibson said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> I just typed "Walter Cronkite spacecraft", into the Amazon search bar and 4 books came up.
> 
> Somewhat gratifyingly (I think?), two of them were mine.
> 
> But oddly, none of those three words is in my book descriptions. I'm not even sure they're in my key words. Certainly not as that three-word phrase.
> 
> Philip


Oh, wait!

Here's something I didn't know. Amazon search has made my books show up from that search term (Walter Cronkite spacecraft) as a result of 'excerpts' from the books. Next to one book it says:



> Excerpt
> Page 16 : ... the systems aboard the spacecraft. Walter Cronkite @WCCBSNews At 9. ...See a random page in this book.


and next to the other book it says:



> Excerpt
> Page 88 : ... power remains aboard the spacecraft. Walter Cronkite @WCronkiteCBSNews ...See a random page in this book.


So the system went all the way to page 88 in that book to find text corresponding to the search term.

I had no idea it looked inside the books or what it implies for searches. I thought searches were based on key words and (possibly) book descriptions. I'm really surprised to see that they actually look INSIDE the book (and beyond the first 10% - the Look Inside feature)

What DOES this imply for searches? I have no idea.

Philip


----------



## melbatron

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Something has changed then. I accidentally found my way into a superhero category when I used the word hero in my description. It went something like this: "Shima is a hero of great renown, and has survived many battles..."
> 
> I wrote that as part of my description, and bang, I'm in a superhero category! I didn't choose any keywords using hero. It only appears in the blurb. I knew Google and Kobo used the description for its searches, I learned that Amazon searches on titles, series titles, sub titles FIRST, but does seem to judge descriptions as well. I think they're considered of lesser importance, and the algo gives them less weight than titles, but they ARE used.


Aha! This explains why my book is in mental health, even though it's a vampire murder mystery! Part of my description says the main character will be pushed to the limits of sanity. Mystery solved!


----------



## Darryl Hughes

edwardgtalbot said:


> I'm using the keywords they are suggesting. Just not worrying about order or plural because of both my own trial and error and what a number of others on KB have said. I've never seen anyone on KB say NOT to use the keywords Amazon suggests. Just that we can leave out the commas and not worry about word order or plural and be able to use more of the actual search terms we can confirm are used by visitors to Amazon. In theory I'm getting everything you're getting plus the ability to have more than 7 combinations.


No you're not really. Because for just that one keyword "kids fantasy books" my book gets the benefit of every combination of the terms "kids fantasy..." ("kids fantasy adventure", etc) and "...fantasy books" ("fantasy books for kids", "children's fantasy books", etc) that are searched.

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes

melbatron said:


> Aha! This explains why my book is in mental health, even though it's a vampire murder mystery! Part of my description says the main character will be pushed to the limits of sanity. Mystery solved!


And helping to prove that keywords in the book description do work toward searches/categories on Amazon.

Dee


----------



## TromboneAl

Darryl Hughes said:


> And helping to prove that keywords in the book description do work toward searches/categories on Amazon.
> 
> Dee


I appreciate your help, Dee, and I'm still pretty confused about a lot of this.

My description contains the word "Cronkite" twice, and it has for months now. Yet, if I search for "Cronkite Macy" or "Cronkite Contact" my book does not show up anywhere. If I search for "Cronkite Maruska trickster Gregory" (more words from my description) it does not find my book.

I cannot see how, if it looks in the description, it fails to find my book with those search words.

Here's a kicker:

If I search for "On May 22, 2018, every person on Earth sneezes," it finds my book! BUT, those approximate words are in the text of the book as well.

If I search for "It happened at twenty seconds after," which are words not in the description, but in the book, it finds my book.

If I search for "Walter Cronkite was sitting at the anchor desk" it finds my book! (text from chapter five).

If I search for "Drug Lord Louis Corby had profited" if finds my book (text from chapter nineteen, wow!).

My tentative conclusion is that Amazon does not use the description, but does, as Philip pointed out, use phrases from the book itself. But it's not simple, because "Cronkite Macy" doesn't find my book, but "Cronkite was sitting" finds my book.



> Aha! This explains why my book is in mental health, even though it's a vampire murder mystery! Part of my description says the main character will be pushed to the limits of sanity. Mystery solved!


Does your book also contain similar words?


----------



## Dale Hammond

To make this more complicated, there appears to be different results depending on whether you search for just Kindle or books in general.  A little experimenting showed that searching for phrases from one of my stories yielded results when searching under "Books" from my paperback edition, but not when searching under "Kindle".  A phrase in the product description didn't show up searching in either category.


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## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> I appreciate your help, Dee, and I'm still pretty confused about a lot of this.
> 
> My description contains the word "Cronkite" twice, and it has for months now. Yet, if I search for "Cronkite Macy" or "Cronkite Contact" my book does not show up anywhere. If I search for "Cronkite Maruska trickster Gregory" (more words from my description) it does not find my book.
> 
> I cannot see how, if it looks in the description, it fails to find my book with those search words.
> 
> Here's a kicker:
> 
> If I search for "On May 22, 2018, every person on Earth sneezes," it finds my book! BUT, those approximate words are in the text of the book as well.
> 
> If I search for "It happened at twenty seconds after," which are words not in the description, but in the book, it finds my book.
> 
> If I search for "Walter Cronkite was sitting at the anchor desk" it finds my book! (text from chapter five).
> 
> If I search for "Drug Lord Louis Corby had profited" if finds my book (text from chapter nineteen, wow!).
> 
> My tentative conclusion is that Amazon does not use the description, but does, as Philip pointed out, use phrases from the book itself. But it's not simple, because "Cronkite Macy" doesn't find my book, but "Cronkite was sitting" finds my book.
> 
> Does your book also contain similar words?


First off I'd say you're going about it the wrong way. No one is going to type in Walter Cronkite to find a scifi book that they don't know exists--Including yours. When someone types Walter Cronkite into a search box they're looking for a biography of some sort.

What you have now for "Contact Us" is a plot description followed by reviews. You have no book description. What you need to do is take those keywords you're using and work them into a catchy, intelligent book descriptive paragraph along the lines of "'Contact Us' by (Your name), a dark humorous scifi alien invasion techno thriller for teens and young adults. It's apocalyptic alien invasion with a side order of fun. You'll never look at science fiction, alien robot invasion, or Walter Cronkite, the same way again..."

When you've got a catchy book description (and use all your inner "Mad men"/PT Barnum) you like stick it between the plot description and the reviews you have there now and you should be good.

Dee


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I think you can drive yourself mad doing these searches . I tried typing in '*hilarious'* because it is part of the description (as advised by BookBub) for But Can You Drink The Water? (Droll, witty, and utterly British). It didn't seem to show up under *hilarious stories* BUT Something to Read on the Plane (A Bit of Light Literature, Short Stories & Other Fun Stuff) which, as far as I know does not have hilarious in the description or reviews, showed up on page 7 of the search.


----------



## TromboneAl

Thanks, Dee.



Darryl Hughes said:


> First off I'd say you're going about it the wrong way. No one is going to type in Walter Cronkite to find a scifi book that they don't know exists--Including yours. When someone types Walter Cronkite into a search box they're looking for a biography of some sort.


No, of course not. I was running an experiment by using "Walter Cronkite" because it is a text string that appears twice in the description, and nowhere in the title or keywords. IOW, I was using that to run an experiment that would tell me whether the description is used.

Sci-Geek Speak:

Hypothesis: Amazon uses the descriptions for searches.

a. If I search for a phrase that appears only in the description ("Walter Cronkite") and my book isn't found, I must reject that hypothesis.

b. If I search for a phrase that appears only in the description ("Walter Cronkite") and my book is found, it supports the hypothesis.

What I found was: a.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> Thanks, Dee.
> 
> No, of course not. I was running an experiment by using "Walter Cronkite" because it is a text string that appears twice in the description, and nowhere in the title or keywords. IOW, I was using that to run an experiment that would tell me whether the description is used.
> 
> Sci-Geek Speak:
> 
> Hypothesis: Amazon uses the descriptions for searches.
> 
> a. If I search for a phrase that appears only in the description ("Walter Cronkite") and my book isn't found, I must reject that hypothesis.
> 
> b. If I search for a phrase that appears only in the description ("Walter Cronkite") and my book is found, it supports the hypothesis.
> 
> What I found was: a.


Yeah, but that doesn't probe "a". If there are 1,000,000 search results for Walter Cronkite and you didn't find your book because you stopped looking on search page 90, maybe you didn't find it because relevance wise your book is search result #999,998 on search page 2,500. So you didn't prove "a" you just stopped looking before you found your book.

To truly prove "a" try putting your keyword/search terms in your description and not some random work of no real relevance to searches for a scifi alien invasion technothriller/comedy. That's like having a guy named "John Doe" in your book and hoping that folks find your book by looking up "John Doe". Possible? Sure. Probable? No. Just like with Walter Cronkite.

Dee


----------



## TromboneAl

Darryl Hughes said:


> Yeah, but that doesn't probe "a". If there are 1,000,000 search results for Walter Cronkite and you didn't find your book because you stopped looking on search page 90, maybe you didn't find it because relevance wise your book is search result #999,998 on search page 2,500. So you didn't prove "a" you just stopped looking before you found your book.
> 
> To truly prove "a" try putting your keyword/search terms in your description and not some random work of no real relevance to searches for a scifi alien invasion technothriller/comedy. That's like having a guy named "John Doe" in your book and hoping that folks find your book by looking up "John Doe". Possible? Sure. Probable? No. Just like with Walter Cronkite.
> 
> Dee


Good point. Thanks for helping with my brainstorming.

So here's what I did: I searched for "Walter Cronkite Macy." That returned six results, and my book wasn't one of them.

If I search for "Alien Macy" my book comes up first. Same if I put in any term from my keywords or title and append "Macy."


----------



## Darryl Hughes

TromboneAl said:


> Good point. Thanks for helping with my brainstorming.
> 
> So here's what I did: I searched for "Walter Cronkite Macy." That returned six results, and my book wasn't one of them.
> 
> If I search for "Alien Macy" my book comes up first. Same if I put in any term from my keywords or title and append "Macy."


Al? That ass-u-me-s that people are going to search for your book by using any part of your name. They aren't. You aren't Stephen King.

This isn't brain surgery. Use the Amazon search box to search for your "buyer keywords" for your genre/category that Amazon suggests based on searches that buyers have made to find books to read. Pick out the best ones for your book. Check the number of searches that resulted for your search term because you don't want one that has too many searches (15,000-20,000 or more) because that suggests it's a huge search category (like say "children's books") ad your book will get lost in the shuffle. Look for more specific search terms like ("children's fantasy adventure books") if your children's book is a fantasy as well as an adventure which will have a lower search result (because it's more specific) so your book will stand out more in the search results and it covers all of your search terms with one keyword because you'll get the benefit of searches for "children's books", "children's fantasy books", "fantasy adventure books", "fantasy adventure books for children"and other combinations of theose words because they're all keywords within your keyword: "Children's fantasy adventure books" without ever having to add those search terms manually. See what I mean? For example, whne I added "kids fantasy books" recently my book also showed up on searches for "kids fantasy adventure books", "kids fantasy adventure series", etc. Just from adding that one keyword: "kids fantasy books".

Now once you find your "buyer keywords" if you want to do the whole keyword stuffing thing? That's up to you. I don't see the benefit of stuff keywords if you're going to get the benefit of being included in search terms that are similar to your keywords anyway.

Whew. 

Dee


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I think you can drive yourself mad doing these searches . I tried typing in '*hilarious'* because it is part of the description (as advised by BookBub) for But Can You Drink The Water? (Droll, witty, and utterly British). It didn't seem to show up under *hilarious stories* BUT Something to Read on the Plane (A Bit of Light Literature, Short Stories & Other Fun Stuff) which, as far as I know does not have hilarious in the description or reviews, showed up on page 7 of the search.


I hope that you're using "hilarious stories" as one of your keywords. If not you should.

Checking out your product pages and searching for buyer keywords if I were you I'd be using these:

-Hilarious stories
-Hilarious books
-Hilarious memes & funny stuff (because the word "fun" is in one of your titles)
-Hilarious fiction books
-Funny books for women (again because of the word "fun" in your title and it says in your description that your book is for men and women)
-Funny books for men
-Britsh humor fiction

Hope that helps. 

Dee


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Darryl Hughes said:


> I hope that you're using "hilarious stories" as one of your keywords. If not you should.
> 
> Checking out your product pages and searching for buyer keywords if I were you I'd be using these:
> 
> -Hilarious stories
> -Hilarious books
> -Hilarious memes & funny stuff (because the word "fun" is in one of your titles)
> -Hilarious fiction books
> -Funny books for women (again because of the word "fun" in your title and it says in your description that your book is for men and women)
> -Funny books for men
> -Britsh humor fiction
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Dee


Thanks. Have added them and will see what happens.
Had a look at the UK searches. Couldn't find But Can You ... on the first ten pages of funny, hilarious, humorous etc, but did find it on the first five pages of emigration and immigration. Beginning to think it's only due to serendipity that readers find it


----------



## TromboneAl

Darryl Hughes said:


> Al? That ass-u-me-s that people are going to search for your book by using any part of your name. They aren't. You aren't Stephen King.


I am really not being clear, and I apologize.

I know that no one will ever, ever search for "Walter Cronkite Macy." I didn't expect it, I do not expect it, and I don't want anyone to search for that. I am using it as an _experiment _to tell me how the Amazon search works. It tells me that the Amazon algorithm ignores the description when searching.

I'd considered putting a nonsense word in my description, say "xxqqnotaword." I would then search for that, and if it didn't show up, I'd know that Amazon's algorithm doesn't look at the description. It doesn't mean that I think people would search for "xxqqnotaword," or that it's a good keyword. I'd just use it as an experiment to understand the algorithm.

But I don't need to do that, because I've already proven that Amazon doesn't look at the description.

I apologize if this got confrontational. I will bow out of this thread because I can't help responding when someone doesn't understand my intentions. Sorry about that.


----------



## Philip Gibson

TromboneAl said:


> I'd considered putting a nonsense word in my description, say "xxqqnotaword." I would then search for that, and if it didn't show up, I'd know that Amazon's algorithm doesn't look at the description. It doesn't mean that I think people would search for "xxqqnotaword," or that it's a good keyword. I'd just use it as an experiment to understand the algorithm.


I once put such an impossible nonsense word in my keywords field as an experiment to see if my book would show up when I typed in the nonsense word.

It didn't.

Philip


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## JeanetteRaleigh

Thanks for the reminder!  I change my keywords periodically so that different customers will see the books.  For example, instead of Hilarious romance, I might use funny romance in a 'keyword' change.  It's also helpful to track your keywords in a Word document and if they are particular successful, to highlight them, especially if you test different keywords alot.


----------



## AnonWriter

This has all been very enlightening. Thanks Al and Dee and everyone for all your sleuthing.


----------



## Jena H

TromboneAl said:


> I am really not being clear, and I apologize.
> 
> *I know that no one will ever, ever search for "Walter Cronkite Macy." I didn't expect it, I do not expect it, and I don't want anyone to search for that. I am using it as an experiment to tell me how the Amazon search works.* It tells me that the Amazon algorithm ignores the description when searching.
> 
> I'd considered putting a nonsense word in my description, say "xxqqnotaword." I would then search for that, and if it didn't show up, I'd know that Amazon's algorithm doesn't look at the description. It doesn't mean that I think people would search for "xxqqnotaword," or that it's a good keyword. I'd just use it as an experiment to understand the algorithm.
> 
> But I don't need to do that, because I've already proven that Amazon doesn't look at the description.
> 
> I apologize if this got confrontational. I will bow out of this thread because I can't help responding when someone doesn't understand my intentions. Sorry about that.


I understood what you meant.


----------



## Mike_Author

I have noticed the spammier books on Amazon are now putting "Tags" at the bottom of their blurb with all the keywords.  Is this legit?  I thought Amazon frowned on this but clearly not.  Evidently there is some book/coaching course which recommends this because these blurbs all look the same (ie - they have "read this book on your pc, ereader or smartphone" in orange livery)...


----------



## Robert Bidinotto

This thread -- plus my recent viewings of Nick Stephenson's videos and reading from his book -- have inspired me to make some radical changes in my keywords. I thought I'd outline the experiment in advance to establish a baseline by which to measure the results.

I have so far published two series vigilante crime thrillers, _HUNTER_, and its sequel, _BAD DEEDS_. Both are downloading currently at a similar clip (sales and borrows of both so far this month are virtually equal), with daily Amazon rankings fluctuating between #10,000 - #20,000.

For the experiment, I decided to let _HUNTER's_ keywords stay as-is for the time being, in order to serve as a rough statistical control. I changed only the keywords for _BAD DEEDS_ using the "stuffing" strategy.

Here were the keywords before the change:

_vigilante justice, vigilante series, justice series, assassin, conspiracy, environment, action-packed_

Here are the keywords as I changed them Sunday evening:

_vigilante justice thrillers series, justice thriller crime fiction mystery thriller suspense, vigilante action hero thriller books, serial killers noir murder mysteries hitman vengeance vengeful assassin revenge crime thriller novels, political conspiracy CIA spy espionage thrillers, assassination spies politics conspiracies, terrorism conspiracy environment thrillers _

Let me point out several things. First, you notice that with the "keyword stuffing," I have vastly expanded the number of keyword search terms. You'll also notice that -- contrary to the advice of several folks here -- I have repeated certain search words, such as "thriller," "thrillers," "vigilante," "crime," etc. Third, I've used 6 commas to produce 7 large search phrases. The latter two choices require explanation.

I have seen considerable argument and uncertainty here concerning the grouping of search terms, and whether that matters. Many here argue that it doesn't matter, and that you only need use a term once. Perhaps -- but I've decided to take a cautious approach. After long testing of "search bar" popularity results for search phrases that best describe my book, I decided that it would be prudent to mirror the wording of those terms as closely as possible, grouping them together consecutively in the KDP keyword field. Variations of those terms produced some repeated words. Maybe that doesn't really matter to improve results; but since I have more than enough distinctive terms for my purposes anyway, I don't need to cut the repeated terms to make room for others.

I also felt that it might be safer to group related words (assassin, hitman, murder, etc.) within the same phrase, set off with a comma. Since we don't know _exactly_ how the Amazon algos are programmed, that cautious approach has no downside risk.

So, I made the keyword changes, and the first results are already in. Prior to the changes, _BAD DEEDS_ was listed in about 6 categories. But shortly after I swapped in the new terms, the number of categories for the book has mushroomed to 14. The ones listed in red, below, represent brand-new categories:

Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Murder
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Serial Killers
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Vigilante Justice
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Assassinations
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Political
Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Terrorism
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Murder
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Noir
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Serial Killers
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Vigilante Justice
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Assassinations
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Conspiracies
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Terrorism

Alone, this will mean a huge improvement for the book's visibility, especially during future promotions. As the book's overall Amazon ranking improves, it will begin to appear on many more category bestseller lists. That will give sales a big boost.

The book began the evening ranked at #20,787. Currently, it is at #19,480. It's too early to determine any sales results; I don't think the new keywords have yet established themselves in the search engine, and of course readers haven't had time to employ them yet. What I hope for, of course, is a significant improvement of ranking over the coming week. If _BAD DEEDS_ falls to about #12,000 or below and sustains that lower ranking -- and if it starts to steadily rank better than _HUNTER_ (which has been selling consistently more copies than _BAD DEEDS_) -- I'll take that as persuasive evidence that the new keywords have made a big difference.

I'll report the results here in coming days. Stay tuned....


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> This thread -- plus my recent viewings of Nick Stephenson's videos and reading from his book -- have inspired me to make some radical changes in my keywords. I thought I'd outline the experiment in advance to establish a baseline by which to measure the results.
> 
> I have so far published two series vigilante crime thrillers, _HUNTER_, and its sequel, _BAD DEEDS_. Both are downloading currently at a similar clip (sales and borrows of both so far this month are virtually equal), with daily Amazon rankings fluctuating between #10,000 - #20,000.
> 
> For the experiment, I decided to let _HUNTER's_ keywords stay as-is for the time being, in order to serve as a rough statistical control. I changed only the keywords for _BAD DEEDS_ using the "stuffing" strategy.
> 
> Here were the keywords before the change:
> 
> _vigilante justice, vigilante series, justice series, assassin, conspiracy, environment, action-packed_
> 
> Here are the keywords as I changed them Sunday evening:
> 
> _vigilante justice thrillers series, justice thriller crime fiction mystery thriller suspense, vigilante action hero thriller books, serial killers noir murder mysteries hitman vengeance vengeful assassin revenge crime thriller novels, political conspiracy CIA spy espionage thrillers, assassination spies politics conspiracies, terrorism conspiracy environment thrillers _
> 
> Let me point out several things. First, you notice that with the "keyword stuffing," I have vastly expanded the number of keyword search terms. You'll also notice that -- contrary to the advice of several folks here -- I have repeated certain search words, such as "thriller," "thrillers," "vigilante," "crime," etc. Third, I've used 6 commas to produce 7 large search phrases. The latter two choices require explanation.
> 
> I have seen considerable argument and uncertainty here concerning the grouping of search terms, and whether that matters. Many here argue that it doesn't matter, and that you only need use a term once. Perhaps -- but I've decided to take a cautious approach. After long testing of "search bar" popularity results for search phrases that best describe my book, I decided that it would be prudent to mirror the wording of those terms as closely as possible, grouping them together consecutively in the KDP keyword field. Variations of those terms produced some repeated words. Maybe that doesn't really matter to improve results; but since I have more than enough distinctive terms for my purposes anyway, I don't need to cut the repeated terms to make room for others.
> 
> I also felt that it might be safer to group related words (assassin, hitman, murder, etc.) within the same phrase, set off with a comma. Since we don't know _exactly_ how the Amazon algos are programmed, that cautious approach has no downside risk.
> 
> So, I made the keyword changes, and the first results are already in. Prior to the changes, _BAD DEEDS_ was listed in about 6 categories. But shortly after I swapped in the new terms, the number of categories for the book has mushroomed to 14. The ones listed in red, below, represent brand-new categories:
> 
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Murder
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Serial Killers
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Crime > Vigilante Justice
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Assassinations
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Conspiracies
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Political
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Spies & Politics > Terrorism
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Murder
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Noir
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Serial Killers
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Vigilante Justice
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Assassinations
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Conspiracies
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers > Terrorism
> 
> Alone, this will mean a huge improvement for the book's visibility, especially during future promotions. As the book's overall Amazon ranking improves, it will begin to appear on many more category bestseller lists. That will give sales a big boost.
> 
> The book began the evening ranked at #20,787. Currently, it is at #19,480. It's too early to determine any sales results; I don't think the new keywords have yet established themselves in the search engine, and of course readers haven't had time to employ them yet. What I hope for, of course, is a significant improvement of ranking over the coming week. If _BAD DEEDS_ falls to about #12,000 or below and sustains that lower ranking -- and if it starts to steadily rank better than _HUNTER_ (which has been selling consistently more copies than _BAD DEEDS_) -- I'll take that as persuasive evidence that the new keywords have made a big difference.
> 
> I'll report the results here in coming days. Stay tuned....


Let me be clear, I'm all for anything that helps. My question about keyword stuffing is this, yes you've increased the number of cataegories your book is listed under (which I've done simply by changing my categories every now and then. Amazon doesn't take away the old category it just adds the newer one) but have your books gone further up the search page for your keyword searches? Having added a bunch of new categories your book is listed under means nothing if your book is sitting on page 15 of your keywords/search terms. Taking into account the laziness of people, and I think we can agree that people will stop looking after page 5 or 6, no one is going to find your book.

Dee


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## Robert Bidinotto

But here is one improvement already: BAD DEEDS has shown up in the Top 50 in at least two more categories. It's now at #20 in Crime Fiction/Noir, and #48 in Crime Fiction/Serial Killers. Those are new categories for the book. I'm betting (no time to check) that it's in the Top 100 in a bunch of other new categories, too. 

And that means a lot of new eyeballs giving it a look. How can there be a downside to that? 

Ranking has fallen this a.m. from #20,787 to #17,941, though that's not significant at this point.

So, even though the search engine itself may not (yet) show my book more visibly (I haven't checked the search terms), the visibility on a host of new subcategory bestseller lists makes "keyword stuffing" more than worthwhile.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Ranking has fallen this a.m. from #20,787 to #17,941, though that's not significant at this point.


Good news - but shouldn't the ranking have *risen *from #20,787 to #17,941?


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## Philip Gibson

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Good news - but shouldn't the ranking have *risen *from #20,787 to #17,941?


This is why I don't say ranking has fallen or risen. It's confusing. I prefer to say ranking has worsened or ranking has improved.

Much clearer I think.

Philip


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## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> But here is one improvement already: BAD DEEDS has shown up in the Top 50 in at least two more categories. It's now at #20 in Crime Fiction/Noir, and #48 in Crime Fiction/Serial Killers. Those are new categories for the book. I'm betting (no time to check) that it's in the Top 100 in a bunch of other new categories, too.
> 
> And that means a lot of new eyeballs giving it a look. How can there be a downside to that?
> 
> Ranking has fallen this a.m. from #20,787 to #17,941, though that's not significant at this point.
> 
> So, even though the search engine itself may not (yet) show my book more visibly (I haven't checked the search terms), the visibility on a host of new subcategory bestseller lists makes "keyword stuffing" more than worthwhile.


Oh, I understand what you're saying about the improvement in category standing. But how many people search for books by category as opposed to typing into the search box? I know I don't. And your sales ranking you said is something like #10,000-#20,000 a day so you were doing fine before all of this. Thumbs up on that btw. 

But again, I'm no fan of keyword stuffing (I should say I'm on the fence about it's value), but whatever works. Just show me the evidence. Whenever I've posted about a keyword I've used and a search result I've gotten from it I've always posted a link where folks can check it out for themselves and see the proof. I just want to see the proof of the value of keyword stuffing when it comes to search results before I jump on board.

Dee


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## Robert Bidinotto

Sales are definitely up today, and ranking of both books has improved. _BAD DEEDS_ has gone from 20,847 to 14,533 as of 6 pm Monday. The book also remains slightly ahead of_ HUNTER_ in today's sales and ranking. Still way too early to draw grand conclusions, but the vector is pointing in the right direction.


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## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Sales are definitely up today, and ranking of both books has improved. _BAD DEEDS_ has gone from 20,847 to 14,533 as of 6 pm Monday. The book also remains slightly ahead of_ HUNTER_ in today's sales and ranking. Still way too early to draw grand conclusions, but the vector is pointing in the right direction.


What keywords/search terms are you using so that I can look up your books? Do you have any idea where your books placed on your keyword/search term page results before you started keyword stuffing?

I ask because your product page has everything that I've ever read that you need to do to improve keyword searches. You had buyer keywords(at least you did before you changed them and started keyword stuffing), you have a keyword in your title, you have keywords in your book description, etc. So it's no wonder to me why your books are selling so well--You were doing everything right right from the start. So keyword stuffing or any of this doesn't even seem like it was necessary for you at all. It's just an extra added benefit because we can all benefit by selling more books no matter how many we've sold in the past, right?

Dee


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## Robert Bidinotto

Dee, I approach this very simply: What works?

I had a number of short, simple keywords two days ago. Like "vigilante justice," "conspiracy," "assassin," "justice thrillers," etc.

Based on the advice here, I "stuffed" a ton of other concepts in there, vastly expanding the length of the search phrases. Voila! Suddenly the book is in a ton of new categories. Suddenly it has zoomed past my other book overnight in sales and the rankings. I'm having the best sales day in a month.

Now, whether that is because people are discovering the book in new categories, or whether they are finding it on the search terms themselves, or -- more likely -- a combination of those things, doesn't really matter to me. What matters is that this change is working for me, by all appearances. I'll give it another 24 hours or so before I "stuff" the keywords for HUNTER, too, and see whether that helps to give a synergistic boost to the series. I don't care WHY the keyword stuffing is working for me -- only THAT it is. I have no emotional investment in a theory, only the results.


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor

Phew! *wipes brow* Just powered through all 21 pages of this thread. Fascinating stuff. I'm taking notes for when my next book comes out.


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## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Dee, I approach this very simply: What works?


Oh, I agree. I just want to make sure that it's actually working. Your books were selling well before all of this so you'd have to experience a significant sales increase to show that it's actually working, you know what I mean?

Dee


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## Michael Deed

The keywords advice and that of building an email list seem the most useful advice being given by those spruiking self-publishing books and expensive video courses. However, apart from the extensive padding (why say something in one sentence when you can take a book and two sequels seems to be the prevailing marketing mantra) , much of the advice being given either seems questionable or aimed at selling non-fiction. And the only successful book many of these have sold is how to make money self-publishing. 

To the extent the advice is relevant to fiction, it seems to be mainly of use to those generating several books a year (i.e. those generating the literary equivalent of microwave TV dinners rather than something more challenging to one’s literary taste buds). 

Best wishes,

Michael


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## Robert Bidinotto

UPDATE:

Monday, the first day of the new keywords, showed a significant improvement. _BAD DEEDS_ saw 21 downloads -- 14 sales and 7 borrows. By contrast, the previous day, it had only 8 downloads (6 sales, 2 borrows). The day before that, just 13 downloads (5 sales, 8 borrows). Etc. In short, well above average.

_BAD DEEDS_ also showed significantly better download results yesterday than _HUNTER_, which saw only 9 downloads (5 sales, 4 borrows).

Could this be a statistical fluke? Could other factors account for this (e.g., some Amazon email promotion, or appearance as a new "also-bought" on someone's popular title)? Sure. Time will tell. But the initial results are encouraging.

Later today, I'll tweak the keywords for _HUNTER_ to see if a noticeable improvement occurs there, too.


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## edwardgtalbot

Robert Bidinotto said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Later today, I'll tweak the keywords for _HUNTER_ to see if a noticeable improvement occurs there, too.


You could experiment with Hunter with not using commas and not repeating keywords, since there are a large contingent of us who have done comparative tests and found no difference. Probably wouldn't be a conclusive data point, but it works for a lot of us. And it opens up the ability to use more keywords if that turns out to make sense.


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## Robert Bidinotto

Certainly a plausible approach. I'll give it some thought before I go ahead.

One thing bugs me. KDP offers 7 keyword phrases. If it makes no difference, then _why?_ Why aren't the instructions: "Write as many keywords as you like, up to 400 characters. Use no punctuation"? I'm operating on the assumption that Zon has a reason for its suggestions.

So, what I MAY do is use the search bar to find commonly searched keyword phrases; use those as the first 6 search terms, separated by commas; then "stuff" the final term with a host of other keywords that seem plausible for my target readers to use, including those also suggested by KDP in its post about keywords.

In addition, I have no idea if or how the order of keywords -- or their proximity to each other -- makes a difference. I know some here say that it doesn't seem to be the case. However, I think I lose nothing by grouping together likely keyword search "phrases" consecutively, without punctuation, in that 7th and final extended phrase. I'll see how that works.

Then, if the results aren't great, I can experiment by changing one keyword phrase at a time, keeping the others constant. I can experiment first with the word order in certain terms. Once I've exhausted those possibilities, I can substitute new keyword phrases, one at a time.

It's tedious, but it's a long-term investment of time into finding a useful combination.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Robert Bidinotto said:


> One thing bugs me. KDP offers 7 keyword phrases. If it makes no difference, then _why?_ Why aren't the instructions: "Write as many keywords as you like, up to 400 characters. Use no punctuation"? I'm operating on the assumption that Zon has a reason for its suggestions.


I don't think Amazon wants to encourage keyword stuffing, BUT they're not worried about it unless books start showing up in searches they don't want them showing up in. That would be my theory. Or. . .Dee is correct and I missed something in all my trials and the commas do actually impact the search.



Robert Bidinotto said:


> So, what I MAY do is use the search bar to find commonly searched keyword phrases; use those as the first 6 search terms, separated by commas; then "stuff" the final term with a host of other keywords that seem plausible for my target readers to use, including those also suggested by KDP in its post about keywords. In addition, I have no idea if or how the order of keywords -- or their proximity to each other -- makes a difference. I know some here say that it doesn't seem to be the case. However, I think I lose nothing by grouping together likely keyword search "phrases" consecutively, without punctuation, in that 7th and final extended phrase. I'll see how that works.


The only time you'd really sacrifice something is if you repeat the same word a bunch of times in different phrases and you use up all 400 characters and still have words you'd like to use but can't. Not repeating words gives you more keywords. To be honest, for most of my books I couldn't come up with 400 characters of keywords that all really seemed relevant, so I wouldn't be sacrificing anything by using your approach.



Robert Bidinotto said:


> Then, if the results aren't great, I can experiment by changing one keyword phrase at a time, keeping the others constant. I can experiment first with the word order in certain terms. Once I've exhausted those possibilities, I can substitute new keyword phrases, one at a time.


Trial and error are certainly the only real way we have to check this. And unless sales make a big move one way or the other and you can eliminate anything but keywords as causing it, it's still quite difficult to make conclusions. You can check where your book appears in the results list for all combinations of search terms in your keywords, sometimes having them in correct order, sometimes duplicating words, etc. It takes a long time of course, because you have to wait for your book to republish before you can do the next test.

Good luck on your tests!


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Certainly a plausible approach. I'll give it some thought before I go ahead.
> 
> One thing bugs me. KDP offers 7 keyword phrases. If it makes no difference, then _why?_ Why aren't the instructions: "Write as many keywords as you like, up to 400 characters. Use no punctuation"? I'm operating on the assumption that Zon has a reason for its suggestions.
> 
> So, what I MAY do is use the search bar to find commonly searched keyword phrases; use those as the first 6 search terms, separated by commas; then "stuff" the final term with a host of other keywords that seem plausible for my target readers to use, including those also suggested by KDP in its post about keywords.
> 
> In addition, I have no idea if or how the order of keywords -- or their proximity to each other -- makes a difference. I know some here say that it doesn't seem to be the case. However, I think I lose nothing by grouping together likely keyword search "phrases" consecutively, without punctuation, in that 7th and final extended phrase. I'll see how that works.
> 
> Then, if the results aren't great, I can experiment by changing one keyword phrase at a time, keeping the others constant. I can experiment first with the word order in certain terms. Once I've exhausted those possibilities, I can substitute new keyword phrases, one at a time.
> 
> It's tedious, but it's a long-term investment of time into finding a useful combination.


Congrats on the sales boost, Robert. 

Though I'm not 100% convinced just yet about the benefits of keyword stuffing I may be leaning forward just a bit. I think your idea of blending the buyer keywords from the search bar and "stuffing" is interesting. You would lose nothing either way and yet gain relevance(and better search page placement results because of it) by using exact Amazon suggested search terms.

I think I'm going to play around with that a bit and see what happens.

Again, congrats on the sales boost.

Dee


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## Robert Bidinotto

Thanks, guys.

But Monday could have been a fluke, for unknown reasons. Tuesday has been a sales dud, pretty much indistinguishable from the longer-term pattern.

It will take time, I suspect, for the keywords to filter their way through the algos to result in any enduring changes. The category changes for _BAD DEEDS_ appeared almost immediately; but I have yet to see any new categories showing up for _HUNTER_, whose keywords I changed tonight.

There are so many variable here that it's almost impossible to determine the cause of any specific shift in sales or rankings. But here's a hypothesis bearing empirical testing:

If you change your keywords and start to show up in a host of new subcategories, it might be worthwhile to run a new free or low-price promotion. The increased sales will improve the book's overall ranking, which will also boost its ranking and visibility in all the new subcategories. That means first-time exposure of the title to a host of new readers who are browsing in that category.

This would be entirely apart from any new sales generated by people searching on keywords.

I may test this hypothesis in coming weeks, if I can line up a Bookbub ad.


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Robert Bidinotto said:


> Thanks, guys.
> 
> But Monday could have been a fluke, for unknown reasons. Tuesday has been a sales dud, pretty much indistinguishable from the longer-term pattern.
> 
> It will take time, I suspect, for the keywords to filter their way through the algos to result in any enduring changes. The category changes for _BAD DEEDS_ appeared almost immediately; but I have yet to see any new categories showing up for _HUNTER_, whose keywords I changed tonight.
> 
> There are so many variable here that it's almost impossible to determine the cause of any specific shift in sales or rankings. But here's a hypothesis bearing empirical testing:
> 
> If you change your keywords and start to show up in a host of new subcategories, it might be worthwhile to run a new free or low-price promotion. The increased sales will improve the book's overall ranking, which will also boost its ranking and visibility in all the new subcategories. That means first-time exposure of the title to a host of new readers who are browsing in that category.
> 
> This would be entirely apart from any new sales generated by people searching on keywords.
> 
> I may test this hypothesis in coming weeks, if I can line up a Bookbub ad.


Still worth a test just for my own piece of mind.

As for the rankings. This is where using buyer keywords from the search bar has it's most important benefit. As I've pointed out and shown through the links I've posted using buyer keywords has gotten me on search pages as high as page 3 of my keywords search terms well above books that are greatly outselling my little mouse book. The only reason I'm ranking higher then these books that are outselling me is because I'm using the exact keywords exactly as they are listed in the searches. So my book has more "relevance" then those other books for the searches so I rank higher even if they're outselling me.

Oh, I'm adding more buyer keywords to my existing buyer keywords (as opposed to one-two word keywords like "fantasy", "magic", or "fairy tale", etc) to see what effect if any it has.

Dee


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## KL_Phelps

thanks for taking the time to write that up!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I've started a new thread on whether using KU, Kindle Unlimited, Prime, or Borrow as keywords helps if readers are searching for books to borrow.

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,214566.new.html#top


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## Darryl Hughes

Okay, here are the initial results almost 24 hours after adding additional buyer keywords to my existing buyer keywords. First no increase in categories at all. Robert's results may be from him adding words that can be categorized "assassination", "espionage", "thriller", etc, and I added keyword phrases.

Interesting result. As a children's book my books searches are over saturated with books, so even though I've had great success landing as high as page 3-4 on a good many of my search terms, on the more popular and therefore more crowded searches like "fantasy adventure books" I haven't been able to crack page 16. Until this morning that is. For no apparent reason, with no corresponding sale, my book rose from page 17 to page 16:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_16?rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Afantasy+adventure+books&page=16&keywords=fantasy+adventure+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431521957

Also, I did add a few small fantasy based keywords like "unicorn" because it's a popular search right now, my book is a fantasy and it has unicorns in it. And yes, this morning my book showed up on the search for "unicorn books":

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_11?rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Aunicorn+books&page=11&keywords=unicorn+books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431553742

I think I'm done fiddling with this. It hasn't really helped me and, most importantly, it hasn't hurt me either. My problem has never been keyword/search page results. Using buyer keywords my book places pretty high in searches as I've shown. My problem is that, at $2.99, my book is overpriced in a category (children's books) where the books top out at $.99. So, knowing what I know about buyer keywords the price thing is fixable with the rest of the books in my book series. I can't change the price of the existing book because I used Amazon's children's book/comicbook creator for it's special features making my file size huge and therefore the lowest price I can offer is $2.99. But, like I said, this can be fixed with the upcoming books.

What's happening with your test, Robert?

Dee


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## Robert Bidinotto

After the first-day vast expansion of categories for _BAD DEEDS_, there was a significant bump in sales. However, that sales increase has not noticeably persisted during the past two days.

I can hazard a preliminary guess that the initial bump is sales came from the book's fresh appearance in a host of new categories, and thus being noticed by a lot more customers browsing those categories -- but not from keyword searches. If it had been the latter, then the sales increases should have persisted, because there's no apparent reason that lots of people would search on those keywords on Monday, but not on Tuesday or Wednesday.

The changes in keywords for _HUNTER_ have yet to show up as new categories on the book's product page. Currently, the book remains listed in only 5 categories. I'll watch closely in the days after the new categories appear (_if_ they do) to see if there's a brief sales spike similar to what happened to _BAD DEEDS_ on Monday. If so, then that will tend to confirm for me that it's the book's visibility in new categories -- and not in keyword searches -- that is generating these brief sales boosts.

Still, it is FAR too early to draw hard conclusions about any of this. I think it will take time for the book to show up in the keyword search algos.

Here is a hypothesis: I wouldn't be surprised if the "relevance" ranking of a book on a given keyword search term is affected by how many customers then "click through" or buy a book, based on that keyword search. In other words, if people searching on "vigilante justice" see my book, then take some _action_ -- clicking through to its product page, or buying it -- then my book may be rewarded with a better page ranking. The more that occurs, the better the book is ranked as "relevant" for searches on that keyword.

If that hypothesis is valid, then it will take time before a given book is ranked well for a given keyword search. This implies that the best thing for a writer to do is to create keyword phrases as thoughtfully and strategically as possible, set them -- then forget them, and go write more books! Let the algos do whatever they can to help you, but don't obsess over your keywords.

One possible follow-up strategy, which I think I mentioned earlier, is to run a promotion after your books shows up in new categories. Its increased overall ranking will show up as better rankings in those new categories, too -- which means more visibility to many new readers.

Anyhow, I'll report back here if and when I see significant changes in sales or rankings in the wake of the keyword changes. It's pointless to speculate further in the absence of hard data.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

For what it's worth.

In 'Kindle Store' I typed in 'children's books to borrow'. There were two pages and none of my books appeared.

I put 'kindle book to borrow' as a keyword phrase with a comma after it in _Bheki and the Magic Light_ and the book then appeared on the first page in this search. So I tried using the same keyword phrase with _Leon Chameleon PI and the case of the kidnapped mouse_ and it also appeared . Don't know if the comma made any difference, or if readers search using this phrase, but at least it worked.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Is this why erotica turns up in so many searches?

http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Erotica-Adult-Keywords-Amazon-ebook/dp/B00W2MG6H0/ref=sr_1_34?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1431777546&sr=1-34&keywords=Romance+kindle+books+to+borrow

This book is loaded with thousands of keywords for Romance, Erotica and New Adult fiction!

You can stop wasting all those hours of boring keyword research!
You can use these keywords to create new best-selling books!
You can take these keywords to improve the sales of your old books!
Best Selling authors know which keywords to use - So should you!
Download this book now! Start putting these keywords to work for you!


----------



## Sam Rivers

I have four of my series done now.  I am starting to see results in the first one I did.


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## lamaha

Just wanted to say that my book "Sons of Gods -- Mahabharata" has shown a very clear improvement since I added new keywords in April. I used to sell one or two a month, now it's one or two a day, including KU. Also, if you enter Mahabharata in the Amazon search, it used to be several pages back; now it's on page one. And the rating has improved by several 100,000. So, it works! I also changed one of the categories, adding it to Fantasy /Myths and Legends/Asian.


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## Sam Rivers

> Just wanted to say that my book "Sons of Gods -- Mahabharata" has shown a very clear improvement since I added new keywords in April.


Are you going to do the same things with your other books if you haven't already?

I would like to stuff all of my books, but I have a lot of them so I may start with my standalone novels first. It is time consuming though and takes time away from writing. I have just finished a novel and am proofing it. Then I am almost half through the next one in the series.

I never seem to have enough time.


----------



## lamaha

Sons of Gods is my only self-published book at the moment. My publisher has n excellent grip on keywords and categories, so I leave those books up to him!


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## Logan R.

I had some trouble getting into some categories, even when I put in the keywords Amazon says to in order to get into those categories. So I just emailed them a list of 7 categories and asked if I could be placed in them. Fifteen minutes later I got an email back saying they put me in all of them, and if I have any other categories just let them know and they'll put me in them. So if you're having bad luck with keywords, just ask! KDP Support was very helpful and put me in the categories no questions asked.


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## Evenstar

Logan Rutherford said:


> I had some trouble getting into some categories, even when I put in the keywords Amazon says to in order to get into those categories. So I just emailed them a list of 7 categories and asked if I could be placed in them. Fifteen minutes later I got an email back saying they put me in all of them, and if I have any other categories just let them know and they'll put me in them. So if you're having bad luck with keywords, just ask! KDP Support was very helpful and put me in the categories no questions asked.


Wow, that's good to know


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

Logan Rutherford said:


> I had some trouble getting into some categories, even when I put in the keywords Amazon says to in order to get into those categories. So I just emailed them a list of 7 categories and asked if I could be placed in them. Fifteen minutes later I got an email back saying they put me in all of them, and if I have any other categories just let them know and they'll put me in them. So if you're having bad luck with keywords, just ask! KDP Support was very helpful and put me in the categories no questions asked.


That will save a lot of time and head scratching. I wonder if we would all get the same helpful person responding to our requests


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## edwardgtalbot

I discovered one other interesting thing today. I have one of my books on a free promo, so I started checking other sites besides just Amazon.com. On .com, my book is in all the categories it should be based on my keywords. But on .ca and .au, it is not. I probably need to go book by book and country by country and email Amazon KDP and request the categories


----------



## edwardgtalbot

carinasanfey said:


> The different amazon marketplaces have different categories, and to my knowledge .com is the one with the largest range of categories, so it stands to reason your books would be in more categories there. Before you email KDP check that the categories you're looking for actually exist in the relevant marketplace!


Absolutely. But an example is the men's Adventure category, which is almost identical on amazon.ca as on .com but I'm not in that category on amazon ca and I am on amazon.com. There are others as well.


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## 75814

Logan Rutherford said:


> I had some trouble getting into some categories, even when I put in the keywords Amazon says to in order to get into those categories. So I just emailed them a list of 7 categories and asked if I could be placed in them. Fifteen minutes later I got an email back saying they put me in all of them, and if I have any other categories just let them know and they'll put me in them. So if you're having bad luck with keywords, just ask! KDP Support was very helpful and put me in the categories no questions asked.


This was my experience, too. Tried several combinations of keywords to get into the categories I wanted, including the suggestions on the KDP help pages, and was still only turning up in general fiction. I finally emailed KDP, told them what categories I was trying to get in, and they added me to them.


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## Philip Gibson

Logan Rutherford said:


> I had some trouble getting into some categories, even when I put in the keywords Amazon says to in order to get into those categories. So I just emailed them a list of 7 categories and asked if I could be placed in them. Fifteen minutes later I got an email back saying they put me in all of them, and if I have any other categories just let them know and they'll put me in them. So if you're having bad luck with keywords, just ask! KDP Support was very helpful and put me in the categories no questions asked.


Results dong this can be mixed though depending on which Amazon rep you happen to come upon. I have been trying to add sub-categories to all my books. So far, it has gone like this:

1. KDP added 7 sub-categories to Book 1 just 15 minutes after I asked.
2. When I thanked them for that and asked for some sub-categories to be added to book 2, another rep replied saying there had been a misunderstanding and only 2 categories are allowed. However, the changed categories (now 3 main and 7 sub-categories) remained on Book 1.
3. I asked to have 6 subcategories added to Book 3. They were added after 8 hours.
4. I tried again with Book 2, pointing out that Amazon allows only 2 MAIN categories but any number of sub-categories. Request was denied.
5. Sent another request for Book 2. Denied again.
6. Sent another request for Book 2 after what I hoped was a shift change. Waiting for a reply.

If I am turned down again, I will re-submit until I find an accommodating representative.

But just to be clear, can people confirm (or not) that the following statement is true regarding Amazon's rules:

*"While Amazon officially allows only 2 MAIN categories, any number of sub-categories are allowed."
*
Thanks.

(I named the books Books 1, 2 & 3 for illustrative purposes. Actually, Book 1 = #Houston68; Book 2 = #Berlin45; Book 3 = #Houston69)

Philip


----------



## Dreagthe

Heaps of thanks to Evenstar and everyone else on this thread. I feel like I've gone from dummy to expert. I changed my boring "Steampunk, Young Adult, Clockwork, Gaslight, Mystery, Thriller, YA" to a set of 7 stuffed keywords building in the "required" cat keywords, "buyer" keywords found from searching on amazon, and the major topics of my novel to almost 400 characters. I only used commas (without spaces) when I needed to keep things like "coming of age" together.

And it all works exactly as designed; searches work as I expect and I've gone from 6 categories to 10 (even dropping an inappropriate one). My book will now actually be findable by readers who might want to read it. I'm stoked!  

Now if I can actually make some sales....

Brett


----------



## Evenstar

Hiya, because there are still people emailing me regarding keywords, I thought I should just point out that in the OP I advocate using the same word several times especially if only paired with a couple of other pertinent keywords , but that the general wisdom of this thread seems to be that you only need to use that word just once in the whole keywords box.


----------



## chasman

Hi everyone. I'm a noob here... I have the usual problem, no one can find my book (nonfiction BTW which I see is rare here!). It appears Amazon don't want to simply tell us how search works in case someone abuses the knowledge... their "solution" to prevent abuse is to keep all of us in the dark. Not really satisfactory. I haven't read all 22 pages of this beast but I did get up to about page 6 then dip into a couple of others. There seem to be a large number of people saying contradictory things and all apparently having evidence to support what they are saying...

For instance in SEARCH word order does make a difference and phrase search even more so (stole these queries from Dave S. on page 2 IIRC):

*Search Rows Returned*
paranormal romance 121,060
romance paranormal 121,016
"paranormal romance" 61,636
"romance paranormal" 75,811

If word order matters in SEARCH (even if the difference in the first two rows is only 44) then that difference is clearly caused by _something_... does anyone have any theories?


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## KelliWolfe

My guess would be that when the keywords were entered the user did it in such a way to make "paranormal romance" appear as one word to the keyword parser - maybe by putting it in quotation marks. So it counts as a hit when searching against paranormal romance but gets missed when searching against romance paranormal.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I received this reply from a query about something else. The *bolding* is mine

The books that come up in search are selected automatically by our system based on many factors and is designed to show the best results. *Search results for books may be based on the text of each book, not just its title and author name.* That's why you may sometimes see results you weren't expecting.

When you use our search engine to look for books, our system attempts to find the products you're most likely to be looking for based on the words you entered. *Our search methods go beyond simple keyword matching and may also be using information not visible on the search results page, including attributes provided by the publisher. *

Information such as past sales history, current availability, length of time also determines the listing of items in search results. These factors also cause the search results on our website to change constantly.


----------



## chasman

KelliWolfe said:


> My guess would be that when the keywords were entered the user did it in such a way to make "paranormal romance" appear as one word to the keyword parser - maybe by putting it in quotation marks. So it counts as a hit when searching against paranormal romance but gets missed when searching against romance paranormal.


Thanks for the rapid reply. That certainly makes sense to me... it's a similar paradigm to Google's phrase search. There are posts (and a book) saying all punctuation apart from commas is ignored in keywords but I suspect that's not correct... there are so many permutations I don't know if blackbox testing can work.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> *Our search methods go beyond simple keyword matching and may also be using information not visible on the search results page, including attributes provided by the publisher. *


Its for reasons such as this that I've taken to making sure that all the metadata for my epubs / mobis is filled out as completely as possible before uploading, including keyword tags. Might not help, but I have yet to see it hurt.


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## chasman

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I received this reply from a query about something else. The *bolding* is mine
> 
> The books that come up in search are selected automatically by our system based on many factors and is designed to show the best results. *Search results for books may be based on the text of each book, not just its title and author name.* That's why you may sometimes see results you weren't expecting.
> 
> When you use our search engine to look for books, our system attempts to find the products you're most likely to be looking for based on the words you entered. *Our search methods go beyond simple keyword matching and may also be using information not visible on the search results page, including attributes provided by the publisher. *
> 
> Information such as past sales history, current availability, length of time also determines the listing of items in search results. These factors also cause the search results on our website to change constantly.


I forgot that last bit completely... if we all type the same search we all get a different result... thanks for that.

I've got Analytics data for the book website... I've decided to pick the 7 words which are most frequently used by real people in the Search and Keyword reports... Once my third book is done I might do a bit of fiddling using the same query set and fiddle with various aspects of the book at least doing all as myself means the purchase history is stable... the latency waiting for changes will be a nuisance but I'm still curious.

Also if they have loads of cool proprietary stuff behind the scenes it wouldn't kill them to just settle all the debates on Keywords, Title, Subtitle and Blurb and just tell us... they seem to have forgotten it is in OUR best interest to be listed with the best possible precision... strange company. Poor Jeff probably doesn't have a clue about all these low level machinations. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## chasman

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Its for reasons such as this that I've taken to making sure that all the metadata for my epubs / mobis is filled out as completely as possible before uploading, including keyword tags. Might not help, but I have yet to see it hurt.


Excellent point, I've put it on my to do list.


----------



## KelliWolfe

chasman said:


> Thanks for the rapid reply. That certainly makes sense to me... it's a similar paradigm to Google's phrase search. There are posts (and a book) saying all punctuation apart from commas is ignored in keywords but I suspect that's not correct... there are so many permutations I don't know if blackbox testing can work.


Because of the way the system works - especially with the user-customized search results - it's extremely difficult to figure things out. And since they change it fairly often and without notice, things which were true at one time get outdated fairly rapidly. And of course there's no way to know that without doing another rigorous round of testing, which tends to be very time consuming. I've tested things myself and determined fairly conclusively that they worked in a certain way, only to be presented with completely contradictory evidence a few weeks later. I'm not convinced that anyone outside the software engineers on the search development team know how it works to any real degree.


----------



## Guest

This is a great post! I didn't know we could stretch the word limit into phrases either. As soon as Amazon is done updating my LAST updates from earlier today, I'll have to update my keywords


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## Not any more

In trying some experimentation, I have found a lot of keyword stuffing in titles. Obviously some authors have really figured out how to game this. For instance, titles that start with "Suspense:" and then the title, or "Mystery:" and then the title. As an example, this is an actual title of a book on Zon:

SUSPENSE: Murder In The Snow (Paranormal Mystery, Crime Fiction, Thrillers, Legal Thrillers) (Scary Books, Dark Erotica, Legal Thrillers Kindle Ebooks, ... Erotica, Paranormal Romance, Crime Book 2)


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## Darryl Hughes

brkingsolver said:


> In trying some experimentation, I have found a lot of keyword stuffing in titles. Obviously some authors have really figured out how to game this. For instance, titles that start with "Suspense:" and then the title, or "Mystery:" and then the title. As an example, this is an actual title of a book on Zon:
> 
> SUSPENSE: Murder In The Snow (Paranormal Mystery, Crime Fiction, Thrillers, Legal Thrillers) (Scary Books, Dark Erotica, Legal Thrillers Kindle Ebooks, ... Erotica, Paranormal Romance, Crime Book 2)


That's not new. Do a search for "children's books" or "books for kids", or "paranormal romance", or just about any other subject. Putting keywords in your title, or using keywords as a part of your title, is an old practice now. I started a topic here when I first arrived last year mentioning it and asking folks if they thought I should try it. Most begged me not to. But folks are doing it because it seems to work.

Dee


----------



## KelliWolfe

Whether the keyword stuffing in the titles actually accomplishes much more than putting them in the keywords is open to doubt. If you take a look at the bestseller lists and see how few of the books there do so, it doesn't appear to have quite the impact that people seem to believe.

There are a lot of books out there offering publishing advice that is... questionable at best. That doesn't stop a lot of people from blindly following that advice.


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## Darryl Hughes

KelliWolfe said:


> Whether the keyword stuffing in the titles actually accomplishes much more than putting them in the keywords is open to doubt. If you take a look at the bestseller lists and see how few of the books there do so, it doesn't appear to have quite the impact that people seem to believe.
> 
> There are a lot of books out there offering publishing advice that is... questionable at best. That doesn't stop a lot of people from blindly following that advice.


No, not many print books do it. But if you look at bestseller Kindle lists all of them do. So judge for yourself.

Dee


----------



## Nancy_G

Evenstar said:


> I have decided to write a dedicated thread to Keywords (just on Amazon in this post) because I am seeing this coming up so often and being answered again and again but maybe not fully enough to allay all questions. I would like to say that this is not set in stone and I don't have any data to back it up except for reading posts that other people have made on the subject and from my own personal experience of frequently playing with keywords to get it right.
> 
> *While I think that covers and blurbs generate sales, your keywords generate people looking at the book in the first place. *
> 
> Firstly I would say that one word keywords are essentially useless. If LOVE is one of my keywords, then they are too broad to get much return. If I type LOVE into Amazon search will my romance novel appear on the first page? Will it even appear on the first 100 pages? *No.* It will get me _nowhere at all!_ Using such generic terms will not help people find your book.


I found this link through another thread someone had shared. Thank you so much for this!  I implemented this last night and hope to see some results. I've always wondered how to use keywords correctly, and now I know! Stuffing! Your tips were great! I'll probably have to play around, not sure.

Thanks!
Nancy


----------



## lilywhite

KelliWolfe said:


> If you take a look at the bestseller lists and see how few of the books there do so, it doesn't appear to have quite the impact that people seem to believe.


It's also blatantly against the KDP ToS. I hate it worse than when I see people putting erotica in non-erotica categories, and that's saying something. It's against the rules, and it makes me so mad.


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## Mike McIntyre

Great thread.

I write travelogues. My two categories are 1) Travel, and 2) Biographies & Memoirs. I have several sub-category threads, including adventure, essays, regional travel, and so on, but they are all tied to my two main categories.

Many competitors' books in those two categories are also listed in a third category--Sports & Outdoors, specifically Sports & Outdoors > Biographies > Adventurers & Explorers. If my books were in that thread they would rank in the Top 100 (as of now, they would be in the Top 40), so I feel like I'm leaving some visibility on the table by not being in that third category.

Do I understand correctly that no matter how many Sports & Outdoors/Biographies/Adventurers & Explorers-appropriate keywords I deploy, I will never gain that third category (unless I give up one of my other two)? Or is it possible to get this totally-appropriate third category? (If keywords cannot lead to that third parent category is it because my books are KDP and my competitors' three-category books are trad pub?)


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## Evenstar

Mike McIntyre said:


> Great thread.
> 
> I write travelogues. My two categories are 1) Travel, and 2) Biographies & Memoirs. I have several sub-category threads, including adventure, essays, regional travel, and so on, but they are all tied to my two main categories.
> 
> Many competitors' books in those two categories are also listed in a third category--Sports & Outdoors, specifically Sports & Outdoors > Biographies > Adventurers & Explorers. If my books were in that thread they would rank in the Top 100 (as of now, they would be in the Top 40), so I feel like I'm leaving some visibility on the table by not being in that third category.
> 
> Do I understand correctly that no matter how many Sports & Outdoors/Biographies/Adventurers & Explorers-appropriate keywords I deploy, I will never gain that third category (unless I give up one of my other two)? Or is it possible to get this totally-appropriate third category? (If keywords cannot lead to that third parent category is it because my books are KDP and my competitors' three-category books are trad pub?)


Mike, you should absolutely be able to hit that third category as well using your keywords. Try actually typing the category name as a keyword. EG, I use _Teen & Young Adult_ as just one keyword (I put commas either side even though I know loads of people think they are useless), but the most relevant category that Amazon offer in the drop down is "Coming of Age"; my book now appears in both.

I used to think you had to luck into some of the relevant categories because they are either not offered or would be your third choice, now I think it is down to keywords


----------



## KelliWolfe

It's worth reposting Amazon's KDP help page on Selecting Browse Categories.

Scroll down to the section labeled "Categories with Keyword Requirements" and then drill down into the sections you're interested in to see the specific keywords you need to get your book placed into each category.


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## North Star Plotting

This thread is a goldmine! It's the thread that keeps on giving and giving...


----------



## Mike McIntyre

Evenstar said:


> Mike, you should absolutely be able to hit that third category as well using your keywords. Try actually typing the category name as a keyword. EG, I use _Teen & Young Adult_ as just one keyword (I put commas either side even though I know loads of people think they are useless), but the most relevant category that Amazon offer in the drop down is "Coming of Age"; my book now appears in both.
> 
> I used to think you had to luck into some of the relevant categories because they are either not offered or would be your third choice, now I think it is down to keywords


Thanks for that tip, Evenstar. I will try it and report back. I also like your suggestion to cut and paste keywords from a Word document. It's hard to keep track of keywords and characters in that tiny window within KDP.



KelliWolfe said:


> It's worth reposting Amazon's KDP help page on Selecting Browse Categories.
> 
> Scroll down to the section labeled "Categories with Keyword Requirements" and then drill down into the sections you're interested in to see the specific keywords you need to get your book placed into each category.


Although Amazon has expanded this help page in recent months, it still only addresses about half of their parent categories. For example, they don't include Travel, my primary category, and Sports & Outdoors, the third one I'm trying to get into. I agree that it works well for the cats they do offer. I have a standalone mystery, and when I entered the suggested keywords, I jumped from two category threads to five overnight. I wouldn't call that five categories, however, as they are sub-cats tied to the same parent category, Mystery, Thriller & Suspense.


----------



## Evenstar

Mike McIntyre said:


> Although Amazon has expanded this help page in recent months, it still only addresses about half of their parent categories. For example, they don't include Travel, my primary category, and Sports & Outdoors, the third one I'm trying to get into. I agree that it works well for the cats they do offer. I have a standalone mystery, and when I entered the suggested keywords, I jumped from two category threads to five overnight. I wouldn't call that five categories, however, as they are sub-cats tied to the same parent category, Mystery, Thriller & Suspense.


That's fantastic news though about getting more sub categories, well done. A lot of people drill down when searching in such a monster sized book store and select a list of books based on a really specific category when they know what sort of thing they are looking for.


----------



## Mike McIntyre

So far keywords have failed to generate a third category for me. And by _category_ I mean one of the 31 main categories listed on the left of the Kindle eBooks page.

But I _may_ have gained some visibility by adding my third desired main category--_Sports & Outdoors_--to my KDP keywords box. (I also added the keywords _biographies, adventurers_ and _explorers_, which are included in the relevant sub-category I'm trying to hit.) For example, when I searched for _Outdoor Biographies Travel_ (Biographies and Travel being my current two main categories), I was #4 on a list that included several bestsellers in my two main categories.

I thought, Wow, this is great! It even satisfied the _high-traffic/low competition_ rule for keyword search lists (bestsellers and fewer than 1,000 results) explained in those Nick Stephenson videos mentioned upthread.

But then I saw that my book vanished from the results when I clicked on any of the sub-categories to the left that weren't tied to my two main categories. In other words, the keyword search list I was so happy to be on works only to the extent that customers either decline to narrow their search, or narrow it only with options that point to my two main categories. If someone clicks the option _Adventurer & Explorer Biographies_, for example, I become invisible, even though all those terms are among my keywords. Now you see me, now you don't.

I don't know how most eBook buyers search on Amazon. I rarely search with keywords and instead drill down within the categories presented on the Kindle home page. Buyers who search that way would, as of now, never find my book if they started with _Sports & Outdoors_. I also don't know how many eBook buyers who search primarily with keywords will generate a list of 1,000 results, say, then decline to narrow that list with the options on the left. My guess is that they would be a small minority of _all_ searchers (those who search by category and those who search by keywords), but I could be wrong.

Has anyone here acquired a third main category for an eBook (as opposed to additional sub-categories to your two main categories) solely through keywords? And by "solely through keywords" I mean a) your third category wasn't grandfathered in from the time we were allowed more than two; b) your third category wasn't added by a sympathetic/sleepy worker on the KDP Desk; and c) your book isn't traditionally published.

*TLR*: I've yet to get a third main category using keywords. And although new keywords are placing my book high on new search lists, those lists are of questionable value due to the many readily available links buyers can then click to narrow their results to lists that no longer include my book.


----------



## edwardgtalbot

Mike McIntyre said:


> But I _may_ have gained some visibility by adding my third desired main category--_Sports & Outdoors_--to my KDP keywords box. (I also added the keywords _biographies, adventurers_ and _explorers_, which are included in the relevant sub-category I'm trying to hit.) For example, when I searched for _Outdoor Biographies Travel_ (Biographies and Travel being my current two main categories), I was #4 on a list that included several bestsellers in my two main categories.
> 
> But then I saw that my book vanished from the results when I clicked on any of the sub-categories to the left that weren't tied to my two main categories. In other words, the keyword search list I was so happy to be on works only to the extent that customers either decline to narrow their search, or narrow it only with options that point to my two main categories. If someone clicks the option _Adventurer & Explorer Biographies_, for example, I become invisible, even though all those terms are among my keywords. Now you see me, now you don't.
> 
> Has anyone here acquired a third main category for an eBook (as opposed to additional sub-categories to your two main categories) solely through keywords?


First, no, you can't get a third main category through keywords alone. The closest you can come is that you may have a romantic suspense short which you put into 2 categories - short stories and romance>suspense. It may be added to a Mystery/thrillers/suspense category. I may not have exact category names right, but you get the idea. It's not really through keywords alone, though, it's just because the categories are incestuous in this case.

As for the other thing you're seeing - if you click on the categories listed right under your book information where it shows your ranking, it takes you to the page based on sales rank. That's where you're seeing your book at #4. If you go down to the bottom of your book description and click on one of the categories down there, it takes you to the popularity list. Totally different criteria for ranking. I hit top 5 in Action & Adventure>Men's Adventure last month on the rankings page during a promo, and I wasn't in the top fifty on the popularity page.


----------



## Mike McIntyre

edwardgtalbot said:


> First, no, you can't get a third main category through keywords alone. The closest you can come is that you may have a romantic suspense short which you put into 2 categories - short stories and romance>suspense. It may be added to a Mystery/thrillers/suspense category. I may not have exact category names right, but you get the idea. It's not really through keywords alone, though, it's just because the categories are incestuous in this case.
> 
> As for the other thing you're seeing - if you click on the categories listed right under your book information where it shows your ranking, it takes you to the page based on sales rank. That's where you're seeing your book at #4. If you go down to the bottom of your book description and click on one of the categories down there, it takes you to the popularity list. Totally different criteria for ranking. I hit top 5 in Action & Adventure>Men's Adventure last month on the rankings page during a promo, and I wasn't in the top fifty on the popularity page.


To be clear, the #4 I referenced was neither a sales rank nor popularity rank based on browse threads listed at the bottom of my product page. It was the place my book was listed in when I generated a search list based on the keywords I typed in the window, namely "outdoors biographies travel."

Your example of gaining a third main category via "incest" rather than keywords makes sense.

The more I think about it the wackier it seems that Amazon would put a book in the three main categories of Religion & Spirituality, Humor & Entertainment, and Business & Money, for example, simply because an author stuffed his keywords box with those terms.


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## edwardgtalbot

Mike McIntyre said:


> To be clear, the #4 I referenced was neither a sales rank nor popularity rank based on browse threads listed at the bottom of my product page. It was the place my book was listed in when I generated a search list based on the keywords I typed in the window, namely "outdoors biographies travel."
> 
> Your example of gaining a third main category via "incest" rather than keywords makes sense.
> 
> The more I think about it the wackier it seems that Amazon would put a book in the three main categories of Religion & Spirituality, Humor & Entertainment, and Business & Money, for example, simply because an author stuffed his keywords box with those terms.


Hah, that would be funny 

Regarding #4, yes I see what you're saying now. So if your result appears on a keyword search and then you click a category on the left, your book will only still appear if you click a category that Amazon has put your book in (which you can tell by looking near the bottom of the book's page). That's the way it works - selecting a category is an additional filter not an "OR" kind of thing. I look at it this way. One, keywords help you appear in searches. two, keywords help you appear in categories. if a user selects both, then the keywords have to be working for you both ways for you to be found.


----------



## RhondaW

Does anyone know if Createspace also allows the really long keyword phrases when publishing a print book?

Thanks


----------



## Evenstar

CS has different limitations. I think it is something like 21 characters per keyword. So you can stuff but to a much lesser degree


----------



## RhondaW

Too bad but good to know.

Thanks!


----------



## Kylo Ren

I swear I read a book a while back that talked about using KindleSpy (or some software like that) to figure out what the best keywords to use are. I can't remember what book that was. Anyone know?

Also, does anyone use KindleSpy for that purpose?


----------



## Donna White Glaser

KindleSpy was fun to play with but too glitchy for me.


----------



## Kylo Ren

Donna White Glaser said:


> KindleSpy was fun to play with but too glitchy for me.


Really? Wow. Can't believe they charge as much as they do for it if it has a lot of bugs.


----------



## Shei Darksbane

I used this post when I was figuring out what to do with my keywords for Awakened.
I'm going to say this was a HUGE help to me. At least I figure it was.

Now I'm starting to wonder some things. 
If I put in a new keyword (like add "psychics" to one of my keyword phrases) will it supplant romance>Vampires from one of the *two* places I'm showing up on my page currently and move that to another category? How does it decide which three categories you show up in on the section near the reviews? 

I'm afraid to fiddle with them at this point for fear it will take me out of the top 100 on romance>vampires if I add something else in. Not planning on pulling the vampire or romance keywords out, just afraid it'll pull me out of there because I have no idea how it works.


----------



## lilywhite

Shei Darksbane said:


> How does it decide which three categories you show up in on the section near the reviews?


Out of all your categories, they will always be the three in which you're highest-ranked -- unless there's a tie that would mean displaying them would create a list longer than three, in which case sometimes you'll see fewer than three.

I've observed this during promos for a while now, and then a friend had it confirmed by KDP CS while she was asking a related question.


----------



## Luis Filipe Alves

Is Someone's book still available? I can't seem to find it anywhere...


----------



## rshane

Hi everyone. I'm new here and have read this whole thread. *collapses* 

One thing I didn't see touched on in here is whether choosing a completely different category for the print version (via createspace) has any sell through results to the ebook version? I'm still trying to refine my keywords based on the advice here (haven't gotten it quite right just yet), but I'm wondering if I should pick a category for print that the ebook version hasn't gotten into, or if that's a mistake?


----------



## Kylo Ren

rshane said:


> Hi everyone. I'm new here and have read this whole thread. *collapses*
> 
> One thing I didn't see touched on in here is whether choosing a completely different category for the print version (via createspace) has any sell through results to the ebook version? I'm still trying to refine my keywords based on the advice here (haven't gotten it quite right just yet), but I'm wondering if I should pick a category for print that the ebook version hasn't gotten into, or if that's a mistake?


Good question. I was under the impression that the categories you choose on Createspace only applied to the Createspace store. But maybe not.


----------



## N R Hairston

Luis Filipe Alves said:


> Is Someone's book still available? I can't seem to find it anywhere...


I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## Shei Darksbane

lilywhite said:


> Out of all your categories, they will always be the three in which you're highest-ranked -- unless there's a tie that would mean displaying them would create a list longer than three, in which case sometimes you'll see fewer than three.
> 
> I've observed this during promos for a while now, and then a friend had it confirmed by KDP CS while she was asking a related question.


Thank you Lily.

Then how can I tell what rank I'm at in those other cats? Is there any way to see its rank in all categories?


----------



## lilywhite

Shei Darksbane said:


> Thank you Lily.
> 
> Then how can I tell what rank I'm at in those other cats? Is there any way to see its rank in all categories?


Not that I'm aware of. I'd love to have that available to us, although I guess it would just be one more number to obsess about so...


----------



## Evenstar

Shei Darksbane said:


> Thank you Lily.
> 
> Then how can I tell what rank I'm at in those other cats? Is there any way to see its rank in all categories?


Booktrakr gives you a list of cats you are ranking in and what number, but I know a lot of people are nervous about giving them all your passwords! I have done and it still makes me edgy.


----------



## KevinH

Shei Darksbane said:


> Then how can I tell what rank I'm at in those other cats? Is there any way to see its rank in all categories?


You simply have to go to those categories and look. For instance, if you had a book ranking in the "Paranormal & Urban" category, clicking on the ranking link should take you here: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Paranormal-Fantasy/zgbs/digital-text/6157853011/ref=zg_bs_nav_kstore_5_6809431011

Once there, you can see various categories - on the left side of the page - that your book might rank in (depending on the keywords you've chosen). You then just kind of sift through each one that's relevant. (An easy way to check is to go to the book ranked 100th in a category of interest and see where it ranks in the overall store. If your book's rank is better, you're probably somewhere in the Top 100 of that category.) Someone may know of an easier way to check your ranking in multiple categories, but this is a method I've resorted to on occasion.


----------



## lilywhite

KevinH said:


> Someone may know of an easier way to check your ranking in multiple categories, but this is a method I've resorted to on occasion.


This is what I do. Checking the store rank of the 100th book in the category is especially useful to stop you digging through categories in which you're not above 100.


----------



## MalcolmRichards

This is a really great thread, thanks to Evenstar for kicking it off. I'm struggling with the whole keyword thing and need some advice with my book The Hiding House. It's dark psychological literary fiction that's very female oriented, with elements of suspense.

I want to get it in the category 'Women's psychological fiction' - can I do this by choosing my 2 categories on the KDP set up page as 'Contemporary Women' and 'Psychological' and then using a 'literary fiction' keyword? Or have the 2 cats as 'Contemporary women' and 'literary fiction' and then use keywords such as 'psychological'?

Or am I completely on the wrong track? I've read so many posts/blogs on the topic, I've given myself a mental block!

I think my biggest problem is that I wrote a book that doesn't sit easily into a clear category, which is part of my struggle of picking the right keywords.

I'm UK based - I mention this because I know some of our categories are worded differently than in the USA.

Thank you!

Mal


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I can't find any of my books under a search for Kindle Unlimited + the genre, so I added a keyword 'kindle unlimited' and KDP said I can't do that.


----------



## vrabinec

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I can't find any of my books under a search for Kindle Unlimited + the genre, so I added a keyword 'kindle unlimited' and KDP said I can't do that.


Hmm, I don't see mine either. It only offers up 10 pages of sci-fi books. I wonder how those books got in there, because it's not a comprehensive list, and there are some very popular books that I know are available in KU that are not on the list. Must be some trick to it, maybe?


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

vrabinec said:


> Hmm, I don't see mine either. It only offers up 10 pages of sci-fi books. I wonder how those books got in there, because it's not a comprehensive list, and there are some very popular books that I know are available in KU that are not on the list. Must be some trick to it, maybe?


I guess so - but the trick is not to add Kindle Unlimited as a keyword (or KU as that is what I had before)


----------



## RinG

Does anyone know if Amazon uses your browsing history to determine what books it shows you on a keyword search? I just did a couple of searches, and my latest release was right up the top. Although they were smaller searches (the largest only had 1500 or so hits), I still find it really strange that my book would be first!


----------



## KelliWolfe

Yes, they do. Try logging out and see if it makes a difference, although in my experience they sometimes hang onto the IP address so that things carry over anyway.


----------



## RinG

Thanks Kelli. That makes it a little hard to judge! But I guess at least you can see if your book comes up in those keywords!


----------



## Jim Johnson

Putting in my thanks to Evenstar and everyone else who posted on this thread. I took it to heart when prepping my books for release, and I managed to get on a bunch of category lists right from the start. I was worried about not being able to select some of the key categories for my books, but smart keyword usage and lots of help from this thread got me to where I wanted to be.

So, thanks and thanks again.


----------



## Roberto El Duque

When aiming for extra categories through keywords do you need to include the ">" 
"category>subcategory" as a keyword?

I'm trying it out on my new series, but getting nowhere - in the past i have emailed KDP support and they have added categories for me that were unachievable through the BISAC list, but this time I am aiming for extra categories that are in the BISAC list, so thought KDP might just tell me to switch main categories.,..,.


----------



## Silly Writer

Roberto El Duque said:


> When aiming for extra categories through keywords do you need to include the ">"
> "category>subcategory" as a keyword?
> 
> I'm trying it out on my new series, but getting nowhere - in the past i have emailed KDP support and they have added categories for me that were unachievable through the BISAC list, but this time I am aiming for extra categories that are in the BISAC list, so thought KDP might just tell me to switch main categories.,..,.


No. You do not use the 'category>subcategory.' Just the actual keyword


----------



## Roberto El Duque

L.L. Akers said:


> No. You do not use the 'category>subcategory.' Just the actual keyword


Thanks for that - I guess the categories I am shooting for can't be hit by using keywords then (they are not on the kdp list). I'll have to try emailing kdp and see how i get on.


----------



## Evenstar

Jim Johnson said:


> Putting in my thanks to Evenstar and everyone else who posted on this thread. I took it to heart when prepping my books for release, and I managed to get on a bunch of category lists right from the start. I was worried about not being able to select some of the key categories for my books, but smart keyword usage and lots of help from this thread got me to where I wanted to be.
> 
> So, thanks and thanks again.


Hey Jim, those are some awesome categories you managed to hit - who even knew that there was one for Westerns>Science Fiction! I bet you are topping that list. And Science-Fiction>Historical sounds like a total oxymoron, but another great category for showing up in.


----------



## ThePoetJustinB

Hey Evenstar,
Great post! Someone showed me this link on Goodreads and I checked it out. So I thought I'd try it out for myself. 

I paired up categories and keywords as you state in the post for my book, Opium Warfare but I’m curious, who’s to say that people will look up your book using these matched up keywords?

For example I did mine based off the genres my book falls under and what the book is about.
I did 11 pairings and I’m listed 1st in 6 out of all of these.

Listed 1st:
Crime Chinese Opium
Thriller Chinese Opium
Thriller Asian Opium
Crime Thriller Asian Opium
Historical Fiction Crime Opium
Fiction Crime Opium

Other listings:
Historical Fiction Chinese Opium(2nd)
Historical Fiction Asian Opium(2nd)
Historical Fiction Thriller Opium(4th)
Fiction Thriller Opium(7th)

Of course I could switch these words around and likely get the same outcome. 
What do I do with these keywords and findings? Amazon only allows a certain amount of keywords. Is there any other way I could use these to my advantage? 

Also, are their any other keywords and categories you think I could try out for my book? 

Thanks,
Justin


----------



## skyle

Bump


----------



## amdonehere

First off, I really, really appreciate this thread. Thanks so much Evenstar!!!

Second, someone help me out here. I'm really, really slooowww when it comes to web stuff. (BTW I made up the scenario below, it's not representative of any real book.)

1.  As we are allowed 7 keywords, what exactly count as 1 word? For example:Is "military romance" one word? or 2 words? 

2. If "military romance" is 1 word, then in your 7-word phrase, do you need to do "military romance", military, romance?  What I mean is, do you need to separate the 2-word phrase into single words again? I supposed not but I am confused here.

3. If "military romance" is one word, then how long can your 1 word be? Can "military romance werewolf forest battle first kiss" all be counted as 1 word too?

4. Being that on Amazon, "Romance" is a category, and "military" is a sub-category, shall one  assume both of these words are already included as keywords outside of the 7-word phrase and skip using either of these words? And include more specific search terms like "forest" "first kiss" and battle"?

Thanks a lot to anyone who can help!


----------



## batmansero

AlexaKang said:


> [list type=decimal]
> [*]As we are allowed 7 keywords, what exactly count as 1 word? For example:Is "military romance" one word? or 2 words?
> [*]If "military romance" is 1 word, then in your 7-word phrase, do you need to do "military romance", military, romance? What I mean is, do you need to separate the 2-word phrase into single words again? I supposed not but I am confused here.
> [*]If "military romance" is one word, then how long can your 1 word be? Can "military romance werewolf forest battle first kiss" all be counted as 1 word too?
> [*]Being that on Amazon, "Romance" is a category, and "military" is a sub-category, shall one assume both of these words are already included as keywords outside of the 7-word phrase and skip using either of these words? And include more specific search terms like "forest" "first kiss" and battle"?[/list]


Think of it as _seven keyword groups_ with _six commas_. There is no real maximum number of words but there is a maximum number of characters and I can't remember it exactly but it's something like 400 characters. You also don't have to repeat words if you don't want to although there is some debate over if it helps or not.

What you want to do is include the keywords that Amazon recommends ( https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A200PDGPEIQX41 ) for your sub genre and also include probable search terms that potential readers will be entering to find what they want.

The answer to your fourth question is to definitely use "romance" and "military" in your keywords as these could be search terms that potential readers will be entering.

Below is an example of seven word groups (under 400 characters) and I set it out like this to make it easier for myself when I'm putting the keywords together.

military romance,
alpha male older man,
innocent younger woman submissive,
second chance first time love,
werewolf pnr paranormal supernatural fated mate against the odds mf,
short quick read story stories,
first kiss sweet coming of age sexual awakening

^ That's seven keywords, six commas and at 254 characters well under the character limit.

Also, regarding categories. If you select a romance category and include keywords that are specific to other romance categories your book should also be found there. Which means depending on your book you can select a romance category and a second but relevant non romance category like women's fiction, science fiction, fantasy, short fiction, humor, etc. Just please make sure it's actually relevant.

Hope that helps


----------



## Rollie38

Hi Everyone...longtime lurker here.  I have 7 books on Amazon and I think my sales are usually pretty good/moderate, although KENP has eclipsed my sales revenue in the past 6 months.

I stumbled across this amazing thread late last week and "stuffed" 4 of my books (2 stand-alones that have stagnated, along with the first 2 books in my 4-book series.)  The changes went in over the weekend and included the previous 7 keywords, stuffed with many other relevant words I added through a great deal of research.

Here's my quandary:  Sales have practically halted.  The two stagnant books only sold a copy every few days, but my series was selling 8-20+ books per day and since Sunday (the day after the change) I've only sold 2-3 per day.  Again, I included all previous keywords and then added other relevant keywords.

Is there a brief "penalty" for changing keywords?  Does Amazon's search engine have to crawl them before they climb back into search results?  I'm a tad freaked out but, for now, I'm holding pat before doing anything else.

Thanks for all the great information in this thread and others.  My best to everyone here!


----------



## amdonehere

batmansero said:


> Think of it as _seven keyword groups_ with _six commas_. There is no real maximum number of words but there is a maximum number of characters and I can't remember it exactly but it's something like 400 characters. You also don't have to repeat words if you don't want to although there is some debate over if it helps or not.
> 
> What you want to do is include the keywords that Amazon recommends ( https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A200PDGPEIQX41 ) for your sub genre and also include probable search terms that potential readers will be entering to find what they want.
> 
> The answer to your fourth question is to definitely use "romance" and "military" in your keywords as these could be search terms that potential readers will be entering.
> 
> Below is an example of seven word groups (under 400 characters) and I set it out like this to make it easier for myself when I'm putting the keywords together.
> 
> military romance,
> alpha male older man,
> innocent younger woman submissive,
> second chance first time love,
> werewolf pnr paranormal supernatural fated mate against the odds mf,
> short quick read story stories,
> first kiss sweet coming of age sexual awakening
> 
> ^ That's seven keywords, six commas and at 254 characters well under the character limit.
> 
> Also, regarding categories. If you select a romance category and include keywords that are specific to other romance categories your book should also be found there. Which means depending on your book you can select a romance category and a second but relevant non romance category like women's fiction, science fiction, fantasy, short fiction, humor, etc. Just please make sure it's actually relevant.
> 
> Hope that helps


Thanks so much!!!! This clarifies a lot! Really appreciate it.


----------



## Cherise

You are allowed 350 characters in the keyword field, including spaces. Fill this with keywords and nothing else. No commas. No punctuation.

Do not use any commas at all in your keywords. Anything between two commas is treated as a phrase that must come whole.


----------



## theaatkinson

interesting...i'd thought it was closer to 400...hmmm. must go back and check what's missing. LOL

as for commas, I've seen myself surround new adult (or science fiction) with commas and the algorithm puts me in a new adult category, take em out, and the cat disappears. even stranger, eh?


----------



## AYClaudy

Rollie38 said:


> Hi Everyone...longtime lurker here. I have 7 books on Amazon and I think my sales are usually pretty good/moderate, although KENP has eclipsed my sales revenue in the past 6 months.
> 
> I stumbled across this amazing thread late last week and "stuffed" 4 of my books (2 stand-alones that have stagnated, along with the first 2 books in my 4-book series.) The changes went in over the weekend and included the previous 7 keywords, stuffed with many other relevant words I added through a great deal of research.
> 
> Here's my quandary: Sales have practically halted. The two stagnant books only sold a copy every few days, but my series was selling 8-20+ books per day and since Sunday (the day after the change) I've only sold 2-3 per day. Again, I included all previous keywords and then added other relevant keywords.
> 
> Is there a brief "penalty" for changing keywords? Does Amazon's search engine have to crawl them before they climb back into search results? I'm a tad freaked out but, for now, I'm holding pat before doing anything else.
> 
> Thanks for all the great information in this thread and others. My best to everyone here!


I have no real data to back this up, just some ideas that I've read other places and my own observations of my own books rankings when I update anything about my book--- I believe updating your book data or file or anything results in something with historic ranking. I'm not clear on Amazon's algorithms, but I think it tracks your book over a period of time (days or weeks isn't clear) and uses that information to place your book in the charts and pop lists. BUT when you update your book something does change to this, maybe it clears it out, I'm not sure-- but something happens and it's like amazon has to let your book accumulate new data now. Again, this is all guessing on my part, but it's the only explanation I've got.


----------



## Rollie38

Thank you, AYClaudy!


----------



## theaatkinson

AYClaudy said:


> I have no real data to back this up, just some ideas that I've read other places and my own observations of my own books rankings when I update anything about my book--- I believe updating your book data or file or anything results in something with historic ranking. I'm not clear on Amazon's algorithms, but I think it tracks your book over a period of time (days or weeks isn't clear) and uses that information to place your book in the charts and pop lists. BUT when you update you book something does change to this, maybe it clears it out, I'm not sure-- but something happens and it's like amazon has to let your book accumulate new data now. Again, this is all guessing on my part, but it's the only explanation I've got.


you know what? I tend to believe you. I had a book going quite well....not awesome by any stretch, but selling about 5-12 per day every day for the last .... six months. ... paid for someone to write a better blurb. the blurb is awesome. i open the kdp dash to alter it, and then...next day plunge...i went from a steady rank of 27K-- 35K to 134K in 3 days. i had to pulse the price to 99cents just to get some movement, but alas, it's just dragging its feet and plunging again. seriously. it's maddening. jan 11 was not kind to me and i haven't found a way to recover yet.

or i might be looking/blaming all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons. LOL


----------



## Darryl Hughes

Tried stuffing once before to no effect. I'm going to try it again. Cross your fingers for me. 

The one confusing thing about stuffing is the commas thing. No one seems to agree on whether to keep them in or leave them out. Is there a final word on commas or not?

Dee


----------



## Jena H

Darryl Hughes said:


> Tried stuffing once before to no effect. I'm going to try it again. Cross your fingers for me.
> 
> The one confusing thing about stuffing is the commas thing. No one seems to agree on whether to keep them in or leave them out. Is there a final word on commas or not?
> 
> Dee


If you're talking about "stuffing" keywords, keep in mind that every time you use a comma, you mark the end of one of your 'words.' And you're only allowed seven words/phrases. So if you say "kids, children, fun, toys, horses, unicorns, magic," you've used up ALL your keywords, regardless of the character limit. However, if you stick three or four or six words between commas, you can use a lot more 'words' before you reach character limit. So instead you'll type "kids children fun toys horses unicorns magic, word word word word word, more words more words more words more words more words," etc.


----------



## Evenstar

Maybe "keyword Strings" is a better term than "Stuffing"

I use commas, but I think the verdict is still out on whether or not they make a difference.


----------



## alawston

I am hopeless at keywords, but after studying this thread a _lot_, I'm finally getting into more categories. Time will tell whether it's going to make any difference in actual keyword searches. I'm never sure whether my sales are a result of poor metadata, poor marketing, or my "genres" just not being particularly popular. In my darkest moments, I rather suspect it's all three...


----------



## KeraEmory

I've read most of this thread and I'm still not sure of the answer:

How critical are the two 'anointed' categories you can set up when publishing in KDP?

For example, if I'd like to eventually end up in Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Vampires (which is a thing that exists), is it crucial that one of my two initial cats is Fiction > Literary? Or is the whole point of this thread that the two initial cats don't matter that much in the face of well-deployed keywords?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Evenstar

KeraEmory said:


> I've read most of this thread and I'm still not sure of the answer:
> 
> How critical are the two 'anointed' categories you can set up when publishing in KDP?
> 
> For example, if I'd like to eventually end up in Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Vampires (which is a thing that exists), is it crucial that one of my two initial cats is Fiction > Literary? Or is the whole point of this thread that the two initial cats don't matter that much in the face of well-deployed keywords?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I think your two initial categories are very crucial, but a totally different thing to keywords. The keywords are to get you into all those that are not actually available to select, as well as to make you appear high up in the search results that people use to find books they will like


----------



## Eric T Knight

This is very helpful, Evenstar. Thanks so much for putting it up. I've learned so much today! (And now I have to stop doing keyword searches on Amazon before I dream about them all night!)


----------



## George Saoulidis

KeraEmory said:


> I've read most of this thread and I'm still not sure of the answer:
> 
> How critical are the two 'anointed' categories you can set up when publishing in KDP?
> 
> For example, if I'd like to eventually end up in Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Vampires (which is a thing that exists), is it crucial that one of my two initial cats is Fiction > Literary? Or is the whole point of this thread that the two initial cats don't matter that much in the face of well-deployed keywords?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Amazon says: Fantasy Characters/Vampires	vampire
So just stick a keyword vampire in there.


----------



## Eric T Knight

I first want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have learned so much!

I also want to apologize if this question has been asked already. I read the first six pages and couldn't find it.

Anyway, I made the recommended changes to the books in my fantasy series. One of my keyword phrases is epic fantasy series. When I search for that a zillion responses come up that I have no real chance of showing up in. However, when I refine the search by customer review (as I often do with other products), I see that after the first few big hitters like Tolkien that it all goes to books with five-star average ratings and sorts by number of ratings. According to this, my book, Wreckers Gate, which has 21 reviews and a 5-star average rating, should pop up on page two. But it doesn't! I scrolled through the next few pages, down to books that have like 2 5-star ratings, and still mine doesn't show up.

Making it worse, the two books bracketing where mine should fall aren't even categorized as fantasy, but sci-fi etc. One of them simply has epic as a word on a random page in the book.

What am I doing wrong here?


----------



## Evenstar

Eric T Knight said:


> I first want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have learned so much!
> 
> I also want to apologize if this question has been asked already. I read the first six pages and couldn't find it.
> 
> Anyway, I made the recommended changes to the books in my fantasy series. One of my keyword phrases is epic fantasy series. When I search for that a zillion responses come up that I have no real chance of showing up in. However, when I refine the search by customer review (as I often do with other products), I see that after the first few big hitters like Tolkien that it all goes to books with five-star average ratings and sorts by number of ratings. According to this, my book, Wreckers Gate, which has 21 reviews and a 5-star average rating, should pop up on page two. But it doesn't! I scrolled through the next few pages, down to books that have like 2 5-star ratings, and still mine doesn't show up.
> 
> Making it worse, the two books bracketing where mine should fall aren't even categorized as fantasy, but sci-fi etc. One of them simply has epic as a word on a random page in the book.
> 
> What am I doing wrong here?


Sorry, only just seen this now that the thread is being mentioned and I thought I should probably update the initial post a bit.

What you are doing wrong is you are using keywords that are too generic, so you are lost way down the list. They need to be more targetted if you want to be appearing up top in a big category like Fantasy. And yes, I'm sorry to say that if someone was just searching for the phrase "epic fantasy series" you are unlikely to get on that first page hot spot, but if they add a single extra word to that which is relevant to you then your book should be the one they find. So you need to put some good word padding around that phrase!


----------



## EvanPickering

So I know this is somewhat a hard question to pin down, but...

I just gave this a shot, totally "stuffing" or "chaining" my keywords by combining them with more phrases or keyword strings to maximize each "comma" so to speak.
I'm curious to see if there will be a difference in results for me following.

I'm somewhat nervous given how well I've been doing that I'm going to send all that to hell. 

What I'm asking is, are we sure sure this practice in fact does make your book more visible? does it put you in more categories but farther from the top? Do we have any solid results on what this does? Or is this just a net benefit practice, and adding words purely increasing the amount of searches you pop up in?

I was the #1 hit for a few categories, and I'm worried that I'll drop down after changing the keywords. I guess we'll see. Anyway, I just want to know what peoples experiences were with this, and how high or low they were on searches before they started chaining keywords.


----------



## Antara Mann

I want to chime in and say that from a while (at least half an year) Amazon has prohibited using the keywords "free", "Kindle" and "bestseller.". I accidentally learned from an author's FB group. I feel sorry they don't allow the usage of "free". it was so effective (I guess). What do you guys use instead of "free"?


----------



## PJ_Cherubino

I've been experimenting with keywords and have some results to report. This reply is intended for newibes and prawns trying to figure out the specifics.

This is a huge thread, so forgive me if this information was already posted, but here is a link about keywords from the Zon itself.

https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A200PDGPEIQX41

The basic gist is that some browse categories require keywords for your work to appear there. If the algos find specific words or word combinations, your book gets into the category.

In my case, I was trying to get into "Space Opera."
Because I wrote my novel before learning about writing to market, it straddles several genres.

I was able to get into the space opera category by selecting the primary categories of "science fiction - general" and "space feet." I then added the words "space opera" to my keyword string.

Bang. The book landed in the space opera category. Huge mistake. My book is not competitive. In that category. It was ranked twice as low as the categories "space fleet" and "military" which my book also landed in.

So, because my novel covers military scifi, I adjusted my keywords to and my book in "space marine" "space fleet" and "military scifi" all of which my novel does cover.

Essentially, I adjusted the keywords as accurately as possible while making sure the subcategory rankings were not too low.


----------



## Talbot

theaatkinson said:


> you know what? I tend to believe you. I had a book going quite well....not awesome by any stretch, but selling about 5-12 per day every day for the last .... six months. ... paid for someone to write a better blurb. the blurb is awesome. i open the kdp dash to alter it, and then...next day plunge...i went from a steady rank of 27K-- 35K to 134K in 3 days. i had to pulse the price to 99cents just to get some movement, but alas, it's just dragging its feet and plunging again. seriously. it's maddening. jan 11 was not kind to me and i haven't found a way to recover yet.
> 
> or i might be looking/blaming all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons. LOL


Groan. With my habit of going back and constantly tweaking one little thing or another this will bite me.


----------



## LadyG

I finally sat down and read this entire thread and played around with my keywords about two weeks ago. I've got to be honest and admit that I really didn't expect much. I was pleasantly surprised -- my sales and pages read doubled almost immediately. Of course, they were pretty low to start with, so I'm still not at bestseller status yet. 

I also updated my covers a few days ago, so it will be interesting to see what happens now.

Whatever happens, I'm really grateful for all the useful information here. Thanks to Evenstar for starting this thread, and to everyone else who contributed!


----------



## PJ_Cherubino

LadyG said:


> I finally sat down and read this entire thread and played around with my keywords about two weeks ago. I've got to be honest and admit that I really didn't expect much. I was pleasantly surprised -- my sales and pages read doubled almost immediately. Of course, they were pretty low to start with, so I'm still not at bestseller status yet.
> 
> I also updated my covers a few days ago, so it will be interesting to see what happens now.
> 
> Whatever happens, I'm really grateful for all the useful information here. Thanks to Evenstar for starting this thread, and to everyone else who contributed!


I am seeing similar results, with a greater increase in page reads over sales.

I can directly attribute these results to this thread, especially Evenstar. May we all be so positive and helpful.

Evenstar rocks.


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## Eric T Knight

Thanks for your response, Evenstar! I'll keep playing with it.


----------



## Craig Andrews

This is a truly fantastic thread, but I'm running into some challenges getting any of these strategies to take effect, including getting me in any additional sub categories. My first book Fracture, currently sits at:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #100,600 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#378 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Fantasy
#2653 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban
#4405 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban

And has a keyword string of:

Urban contemporary fantasy, contemporary urban fantasy male protagonist, urban contemporary fantasy male lead, urban fantasy war urban fantasy action urban fantasy adventure urban fantasy thriller urban fantasy suspense urban fantasy non-romantic urban fantasy not romantic, witch wizard warlock druid shaman mage magi cleric action & adventure fantasy

Any experts out there willing to make some recommendations? I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thank you!


----------



## Antara Mann

In the past, I could land into more categories by including keywords such as fantasy metaphysical and visionary etc but yesterday it didn't do the trick. However, you can email kdp and paste them the exact kindle or book categories you want to add your book to. I did the same last night, I'm currently awaiting response from Amazon.


----------



## George Saoulidis

Craig Andrews said:


> And has a keyword string of:
> 
> Urban contemporary fantasy, contemporary urban fantasy male protagonist, urban contemporary fantasy male lead, urban fantasy war urban fantasy action urban fantasy adventure urban fantasy thriller urban fantasy suspense urban fantasy non-romantic urban fantasy not romantic, witch wizard warlock druid shaman mage magi cleric action & adventure fantasy
> 
> Any experts out there willing to make some recommendations? I'd greatly appreciate it!


You don't need to repeat any of the "urban" or "fantasy" keywords. Once is okay.


----------



## Evenstar

Craig Andrews said:


> And has a keyword string of:
> 
> Urban contemporary fantasy, contemporary urban fantasy male protagonist, urban contemporary fantasy male lead, urban fantasy war urban fantasy action urban fantasy adventure urban fantasy thriller urban fantasy suspense urban fantasy non-romantic urban fantasy not romantic, witch wizard warlock druid shaman mage magi cleric action & adventure fantasy
> 
> Any experts out there willing to make some recommendations? I'd greatly appreciate it!


Hi Craig, I'm up to my ears in a deadline otherwise I'd jump on this for you. But it usually takes me about forty minutes to put together intelligent keywords for others (because I usually don't know the book or the genre well enough without some research), so I just don't have the time right now. But I can tell you straight away that you are wasting keywords ten fold by repeating words over and over. Just use them once (unless you are putting in a particular Amazon category/recommendation which is a different order). Search for repeating "describing" words in your reviews and also in the reviews of you alsoboughts/similar books. You should have: Science Fiction and Fantasy, even though the book is not SF because it is one of the correct cats you want, also Sword & Sorcery should definitely be in your keywords, and lots of other things.... If you don't get any other offers of help I can look at it in a couple of weeks for you.
x


----------



## Eric T Knight

Thanks for the info, George and Evenstar. I guess I need to go back and work on my keywords some more cuz I got lots of repeats! Interesting that you say sci fi should be in there even though the book is fantasy, Evenstar. I wouldn't have thought that.

I'd love help with my keywords too, but I don't want to take up your time. Maybe I could offer something in return? Some beta-reading perhaps? (I am a former English teacher with 25 years of writing novels under my belt.)


----------



## Evenstar

I'm always happy to help if I can. I'll drop you a line when I get done with this WIP.  No return necessary (though one day I might try Kindle Scout and at that point you can bet I'll be calling in every favour I can wrangle)


----------



## Antara Mann

About adding additional categories: some can be added without Amazon's intervention. here's the relevant page: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=200652170


----------



## Craig Andrews

Thank you for the advice and time everyone--I really appreciate it! I'll spend some time tonight to review, internalize, and develop a revised strategy.


----------



## Eva Chase

I feel like a total incompetent here--I just cannot seem to get the keywords to work for me. Case in point: my newest book, Caught in the Burn, is placed in the Romance > New Adult category and has the keywords "new adult college" *and* "new adult romance" (separately), and yet is still not naturally showing up in the ebooks > Romance > New Adult category. (It's showing up in the "books" category, but I imagine Kindle readers tend to use the former.) Yet Amazon did manage to pick up on the "coming of age" in a longer string of keywords to put the book in the ebooks category for Fantasy > Coming of Age. I've had similar problems with my earlier books too.

Has anyone else had this much trouble getting the keywords to work for them? Any idea what the problem might be? I hate having to email KDP Support for *every* book just to get it in the categories it should naturally be in already.


----------



## Darius Brasher

Eva Chase said:


> I feel like a total incompetent here--I just cannot seem to get the keywords to work for me. Case in point: my newest book, Caught in the Burn, is placed in the Romance > New Adult category and has the keywords "new adult college" *and* "new adult romance" (separately), and yet is still not naturally showing up in the ebooks > Romance > New Adult category. (It's showing up in the "books" category, but I imagine Kindle readers tend to use the former.) Yet Amazon did manage to pick up on the "coming of age" in a longer string of keywords to put the book in the ebooks category for Fantasy > Coming of Age. I've had similar problems with my earlier books too.
> 
> Has anyone else had this much trouble getting the keywords to work for them? Any idea what the problem might be? I hate having to email KDP Support for *every* book just to get it in the categories it should naturally be in already.


I share your frustration. I just published a new novel and put in all of the appropriate keywords to have the novel appear in four more categories than it already is in. It is showing up in none of those categories, though. I emailed KDP days ago, and they emailed me back and indicated their technical team is looking into it and would get back to me this weekend. It's annoying. Under another pen name I've published dozens of stories, so it's not like I'm a keyword neophyte.


----------



## Guest

I've been having a similar issue with Aisuru and Deviations. For Deviations I finally did email KDP and got them to manually put it in the missing category. Aisuru I'm still trying to figure out what I'm missing. I've even tried copy/pasting the actual category into the keywords, and it still won't go

I put its categories as:
FICTION > Romance > Multicultural & Interracial
JUVENILE FICTION > Love & Romance

And keywords as: modern fairy tales, young adult love stories, literature & fiction, Japanese fiction, social family issues death dying, magical realism, young adult contemporary romance love

I know I need to get rid of that repeated young adult, but not even sure what else to try anymore.

Its categories continue showing as:



> Books > Romance > Multicultural
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Magical Realism
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Fantasy
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Fantasy
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Multicultural & Interracial
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Romance > Paranormal & Fantasy


Nothing I can do with those keywords will seem to get it to go into Contemporary Romance or the core Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction (I was aiming for social issues, but now I'm just trying to get anywhere in the ballpark). Argh....


----------



## Megan Crewe

Hey Anma! My book _Give Up the Ghost_ is in the teen social issues category (actually, the Death & Dying one, which it looks like you're specifically going for) so I went and checked my selected categories and keywords for that. You can directly select JUVENILE FICTION > Social Issues > Death & Dying through KDP--have you tried that? I wonder if it might be easier to select that and then hope the romance keywords get you into teen romance. I've found that keywords don't have much impact on the "Books" categories (which is the only place Social Issues is relevant--there is no ebooks category for it). I have keywords for a bunch of the other social issues subcategories and even though the book's in Death & Dying, it won't turn up anywhere else.

I've also found that having "multicultural" in your keywords is pretty good for automatically having your book placed in the multicultural romance category, so you might want to pick a different general FICTION category as well--maybe try Romance > Contemporary, since your keywords seem to be getting you into the fantasy categories on their own no problem all ready?


----------



## Guest

Hmmm...good idea, I'll give that a try.  I think I had to do something similar with Deviations now that I think about it...it was just being so wonky about some of the cats.


----------



## Guest

Quick update - that seems to have worked! Yay!

Now in:



> Books > Romance > Contemporary
> Books > Romance > Multicultural
> Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Magical Realism
> Books > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction > Social & Family Issues > Death & Dying
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Contemporary
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Fantasy
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Multicultural & Interracial
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult > Literature & Fiction


 Thank you!


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## Megan Crewe

Yay! Glad I could help.


----------



## Sasha Clementine

Cherise Kelley said:


> Do not use any commas at all in your keywords. Anything between two commas is treated as a phrase that must come whole.


This seems contradictory to what is stated much, much earlier in the thread, where one gentleman noted that if you have 7 strings separated with commas, you can search for the first word of the first string and the last word of the last and still find your book in the search results.

Can anyone with more experience weigh in on this?


----------



## Cherise

Yeah, you nevertheless don't need any commas at all.


----------



## Jacob Stanley

I've seen this thread on the boards many times, and heard people mention how awesome it was, but I'd never gotten around to reading it because I thought I already understood the concept of stuffing Amazon keywords from a post I read a long time ago on another forum. 

Turns out, I was wrong. I had some things right (I knew about the character limit and a few other things), but this thread has taken my knowledge to another level. Thanks a ton to Evenstar and all who participated in all the different experiments. I spent all night adjusting my keywords, and I think I've made some useful changes.


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## Antara Mann

Evenstar said:


> I'm always happy to help if I can. I'll drop you a line when I get done with this WIP. No return necessary (though one day I might try Kindle Scout and at that point you can bet I'll be calling in every favour I can wrangle)


That's very generous of you Evanstar! If you haev the time and wish, could you help me out with my newest supernatural suspense title? I promise to return the favor in any way.


----------



## Evenstar

Antara Mann said:


> That's very generous of you Evanstar! If you haev the time and wish, could you help me out with my newest supernatural suspense title? I promise to return the favor in any way.


Yup, pm me the link


----------



## Nick Younker

Excellent tutorial. Thanks!


----------



## Eric T Knight

Geez, Evenstar, I hesitate to ask since you've already done so much, but I'd love to have you take a peek at my keywords when you have a chance. I'm happy to reciprocate however I can, by promoting your work, buying one of your books, being a beta reader or whatever. (I have 25+ years of novel writing experience and I used to be an English teacher so I'm pretty good at copy editing.)
Thanks!


----------



## Evenstar

Eric T Knight said:


> Geez, Evenstar, I hesitate to ask since you've already done so much, but I'd love to have you take a peek at my keywords when you have a chance. I'm happy to reciprocate however I can, by promoting your work, buying one of your books, being a beta reader or whatever. (I have 25+ years of novel writing experience and I used to be an English teacher so I'm pretty good at copy editing.)
> Thanks!


Of course! No reciprocation necessary, just pm me which book and what keywords you are using at present.

But while I've got your attention... I have always wanted to tell you that I only see something rude when I look at your blue cover... I think it must be like those ink blots, but to my eye it's definitely a ..... going up a ...!


----------



## syko

Evenstar said:


> But while I've got your attention... I have always wanted to tell you that I only see something rude when I look at your blue cover... I think it must be like those ink blots, but to my eye it's definitely a ..... going up a ...!


Oh man lol I have been going over this thread all day as I am about to publish and want to get it right, but I totally see it too lol


----------



## syko

Evenstar said:


> But while I've got your attention... I have always wanted to tell you that I only see something rude when I look at your blue cover... I think it must be like those ink blots, but to my eye it's definitely a ..... going up a ...!


Oh man lol I have been going over this thread all day as I am about to publish and want to get it right, but I totally see it too lol


----------



## RuthNestvold

My categories for a couple of my books seem to have become stuck. I even used the tactic suggested upstream of changing the category through my bookshelf, in the hopes that it would finally put Yseult in the historical / ancient category, but despite the fact that the book is now in historical fiction, the keywords don't seem to be getting it into the "ancient" category. 

Has anyone else had this problem? Any advice?


----------



## Elizabeth_B

Feeling under the weather and sitting at home so I read through the 26 pages here with great interest.  Everyone is so helpful and explains the pros and cons of the "stringing" methods so well.  As a newbie, I did the "seven short phrases" and it didn't work very well.  I'm going to give this method a try although, I admit, I'm not even certain where to start finding the phrases to use!


----------



## Evenstar

Elizabeth_B said:


> Feeling under the weather and sitting at home so I read through the 26 pages here with great interest. Everyone is so helpful and explains the pros and cons of the "stringing" methods so well. As a newbie, I did the "seven short phrases" and it didn't work very well. I'm going to give this method a try although, I admit, I'm not even certain where to start finding the phrases to use!


PM me if you get really stuck and I will take a look


----------



## Elizabeth_B

Thank you for the offer!  I'm still struggling away so I may take you up on that.  Does it get easier once you've "figured out the puzzle" of keywords?


----------



## Jena H

Elizabeth_B said:


> Thank you for the offer! I'm still struggling away so I may take you up on that. Does it get easier once you've "figured out the puzzle" of keywords?


Ha, I'm not sure that's possible, since I'm not sure anyone can truly "figure out the puzzle of keywords." Things change on the Amazon side, each situation has its own variables, and what works for one person one week might not work for someone else the next.


----------



## Eric T Knight

I haven't been back here in a while, then just found this from Evenstar:



> But while I've got your attention... I have always wanted to tell you that I only see something rude when I look at your blue cover... I think it must be like those ink blots, but to my eye it's definitely a ..... going up a ...!


Crap. That never even occurred to me. It's a fantasy parody that my teen son just loves to death, geared mostly YA, so I asked him to draw the cover (he used to draw a lot of comics). Maybe I'll have to have it redone once I write part two.


----------



## Gregg Bell

Great thread. I add my gratitude to Evenstar.

Three questions though:

1) Every book of mine (which used to show several more categories it was entered into) shows just three categories now, as does every other book I look at in the Kindle store. Are the additional categories hidden? If so how do I access them?

2) A couple of different people have said in this thread something along the lines of: 'I just contacted KDP and they put me in all the categories I wanted.' Shouldn't we all be doing that? Isn't that easier than all the wrangling and tweaking that keyword stuffing necessarily entails?

3) A free book of mine (_Man of God_) is perched nicely at #1 in one category and #2 in two others. Do I risk losing those rankings if I change my keywords?


----------



## Guest

Not Evanstar, but:

1 - your books are in more than 3   The first 3 show up above the reviews, but the rest show down near the bottom of the page.  The Find, for example, is in:

Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Suspense
Books > Romance > Romantic Suspense
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Literary Fiction > Action & Adventure
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Mystery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Organized Crime
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Inspirational
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Mystery & Suspense > Suspense

2 - If I remember correctly, if KDP does it, then you also have to have them do future updates (sort of like if you have Author Central do some of your data updates, you get locked out of being able to do the changes yourself in the future).  

3 - Only if you take away the category or keyword that got it in the category that causes it to be remove from that category all together.  I think, though, if you accidentally do that then put it back in, then it would go back to its existing rank because the the category ranks aren't based just on the sales when the book is in the category (going off of the ranks of my books if I shift their category - they never start at the bottom).


----------



## Gregg Bell

Anma Natsu said:


> Not Evanstar, but:
> 
> 1 - your books are in more than 3  The first 3 show up above the reviews, but the rest show down near the bottom of the page. The Find, for example, is in:
> 
> Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Suspense
> Books > Romance > Romantic Suspense
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Literary Fiction > Action & Adventure
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Mystery
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Organized Crime
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Inspirational
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Mystery & Suspense > Suspense
> 
> 2 - If I remember correctly, if KDP does it, then you also have to have them do future updates (sort of like if you have Author Central do some of your data updates, you get locked out of being able to do the changes yourself in the future).
> 
> 3 - Only if you take away the category or keyword that got it in the category that causes it to be remove from that category all together. I think, though, if you accidentally do that then put it back in, then it would go back to its existing rank because the the category ranks aren't based just on the sales when the book is in the category (going off of the ranks of my books if I shift their category - they never start at the bottom).


Thanks Anma. #3 makes sense. Not sure about #2 though. As I said, some people said it's easy. So you're saying once you request a category from KDP you're locked out of changing your keywords and can only change things through them?


----------



## Guest

Gregg Bell said:


> Thanks Anma. #3 makes sense. Not sure about #2 though. As I said, some people said it's easy. So you're saying once you request a category from KDP you're locked out of changing your keywords and can only change things through them?


I _think_ it only affects the ones you had them manually add, but I'll let someone else confirm/clarify whose done it more


----------



## Evenstar

Gregg Bell said:


> Great thread. I add my gratitude to Evenstar.
> 
> Three questions though:
> 
> 1) Every book of mine (which used to show several more categories it was entered into) shows just three categories now, as does every other book I look at in the Kindle store. Are the additional categories hidden? If so how do I access them?
> 
> 2) A couple of different people have said in this thread something along the lines of: 'I just contacted KDP and they put me in all the categories I wanted.' Shouldn't we all be doing that? Isn't that easier than all the wrangling and tweaking that keyword stuffing necessarily entails?
> 
> 3) A free book of mine (_Man of God_) is perched nicely at #1 in one category and #2 in two others. Do I risk losing those rankings if I change my keywords?


Hi, yes some more of the categories are at the bottom, and actually there are even more than that, if you use Booktrakr you can see all of them (a lot of my books only show around six different cats at the bottom of the page but Booktrakr shows their rankings in more than double that amount).

The problem with _requesting_ categories is longevity. It is a great strategy for a new release and I recommend trying it, but when Amazon does any kind of update they disappear again, so after a month or two you are only left once again with the ones that are generated by your keywords. That's based on personal experience and experimentation, but other people's experiences may vary?


----------



## Gregg Bell

Evenstar said:


> Hi, yes some more of the categories are at the bottom, and actually there are even more than that, if you use Booktrakr you can see all of them (a lot of my books only show around six different cats at the bottom of the page but Booktrakr shows their rankings in more than double that amount).
> 
> The problem with _requesting_ categories is longevity. It is a great strategy for a new release and I recommend trying it, but when Amazon does any kind of update they disappear again, so after a month or two you are only left once again with the ones that are generated by your keywords. That's based on personal experience and experimentation, but other people's experiences may vary?


Thanks Evenstar. Preliminary question: What do you mean by 'when Amazon does any kind of an update'? What sort of update are you referring to? Not me changing the price or product description or anything I can do on the Bookshelf, right?

So when I request categories from Amazon I can lose them when Amazon updates. But could I not just get them back by requesting them again? (I do get a sense from reading the posts here that it  is a chancy proposition as to whether Amazon will give me the categories.)

Obversely, if I get my categories from keywords, and there's an Amazon update, I still have my categories?

The requesting categories approach sounds like 'short term gain but long term pain.' Why do you recommend it for a new release?

With as I understand it now, my overall inclination is to go with the keyword approach. I've used it before on other books and been able to get into some wonderful niche categories where I'm #1 or #2 (in the Free grouping anyway) . Granted they're very small categories but at least it is exposure to the people I want to reach.

For my permafree _Man of God_:

#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > African American > Historical
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Mystery
#1 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Biblical

and the total number of categories is:

Books > Literature & Fiction > United States > African American
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > American
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Christian
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Literary
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Urban
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Contemporary Fiction > Women's Fiction
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Biblical
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Inspirational
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Religious & Inspirational Fiction > Mystery
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > United States > African American > Historical
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > United States > African American > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense

Which is fabulous. (Thank you!)

But the below is the situation for my _Saving Baby_ (which is a new release):

#3198 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Inspirational
#4735 in Books > Romance > New Adult & College
#5565 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense

and the total:

Books > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Thrillers & Suspense > Suspense
Books > Romance > New Adult & College
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Inspirational
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Teen & Young Adult

It'll be hard to get visibility in such huge categories but I fail when I try (via keywords--see below) to get into smaller ones like:

Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Suspense>Psychological>Action-packed

I had:


Code:


psychological

and


Code:


action-packed

in my keywords.

So although I'd prefer to go the keyword route with _Saving Baby_, I'm having a hard time getting it to work for me.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


----------



## Harald

I just read all 27 pages here in a few minutes (... pause ... kidding! It took me a couple weeks of reading 1-2 pages each night while eating dinner), and wow, what an eye-opener. Thanks so much to Evenstar for getting this started (and Anma Natsu for first suggesting it to me).

So I just launched my first ebook ("1609" - see signature), and I employed several of the points brought up here. Or, at least my conclusion and decision about them. Here they are, if it helps anyone else:
* I went with a single string of relevant words, no commas, 394 characters (with spaces), no (or few) repeats. No problems.
* I'm in Historical Fiction, so I used the appropriate Literature and Fiction keyword KDP suggests on that page (referred to earlier in this thread).
* The other keywords came from Zon's search hints, studying comparable book cats, looking at category numbers, and just thinking hard about all this.

The result is that I debuted (this past weekend) after 1 sale (mine) with 3 decent Best Seller Rankings and 7 Look for Similar Items by Category listings.

Now here's the crazy part--and would like some input on this... In my highest-ranked cat path (Lit&Fic > Historical Fiction > Short Stories), there are/were 3,229 books. And after 1 sale, I immediately find myself at #164! (and I quickly peaked at #21 before the rank curve started moving down again) Are my keywords that good , or are 3,000+ other books in that category selling fewer than 1 book or maybe 1 book but not for a long time? Hmmm...

FYI: As I write this, I'm still in the Top 100 in that cat path, although dropping (rising?) with most U.S.ers distracted by the Thanksgiving holiday.

Anyway, this monster thread was a very valuable read. Way to go Evenstar!


----------



## Evenstar

Hi all, sorry to post and run without answering any questions, but I'm on a deadline!

I just thought I should put in a quick update *regarding the changes to the keywords page*. So I'm copying in something I put on another forum and I hope it makes sense.

RE: The Changes
I've been tracking mine with interest. Each of my books has a word document with blurb, ASIN, links and keywords used. I do them in word so I can count that I have my 400 keyword characters, and so I can easily tweak and then reload via copy and paste.

I loaded a book up a couple of days ago when the old page was in place. As you might know, I use the first six "strings" (divided by commas) to hit relevant categories, and then I do a long strong for searchable words.

These are the keywords:

Urban Fantasy, paranormal romance, new adult, mystery thriller suspense, Action Adventure, vampire, Arthurian legend Holy Grail Quest king Arthur time travel history witchcraft magic spells merlin witch trials salem Glastonbury conspiracy theory sacred relics PNR romantic true love destiny Highlander immortal werewolf sword sorcery gypsy blood supernatural occult demon hunter powers undead saint

I checked it today and found the new page in place. There are now seven boxes. Amazon has sorted the keywords into them by where the commas were.

In each box:
Box 1: Urban Fantasy
Box 2: paranormal romance
Box 3: New adult
Box 4: mystery thriller suspense
Box 5: Action Adventure
Box 6: Vampire
Box 7: Arthurian legend Holy Grail Quest king Arthur time travel history witchcraft magic spells merlin witch trials salem Glastonbury conspiracy theory sacred relics PNR romantic true love destiny Highlander immortal werewolf sword sorcery gypsy blood supernatural occult demon hunter powers undead saint

So basically it has simply divided them where the commas were, but they are otherwise unchanged. Which is fine with me.

I'm assuming that from here on the characters allowed in each box will be less, as others have already said so, but old keywords still appear to be in place. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Just a little more work because you can't simply copy and paste.


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## Gregg Bell

What are these seven boxes? What is a 'keywords page' and what are the changes? As far as I can tell nothing has changed on my KDP page. (In step 3 there's the one box to: 'Search keywords. Up to seven, optional.') Am I missing something?


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## jaglionpress

Just redid my keywords, and discovered a fifty character (per box) limit. I'm not sure I mind, because it's easier to see what I put in there, but it's worth noting.


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## Harald

jaglionpress said:


> Just redid my keywords, and discovered a fifty character (per box) limit. I'm not sure I mind, because it's easier to see what I put in there, but it's worth noting.


Hmmm... Like Gregg asks above: What boxes are you talking about? I just checked my KDP page again (need to makes a couple of changes), and under (3) Target Your Book to Customers, there is only one input box for "Search keywords (up to 7, optional".

Where are these other "boxes"?


----------



## jaglionpress

They must not have rolled it out to everyone yet, but I was seeing the same thing Evenstar mentioned: keywords in two columns of boxes, left column of four and right column of three. Each cluster of words had been divided up by the commas they originally had, and been sorted into different boxes.


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## Harald

jaglionpress said:


> They must not have rolled it out to everyone yet, but I was seeing the same thing Evenstar mentioned: keywords in two columns of boxes, left column of four and right column of three. Each cluster of words had been divided up by the commas they originally had, and been sorted into different boxes.


Aha! And for those who don't use commas?


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## Evenstar

Oh, sorry, I assumed everyone had the new page now.

I have no idea what they are going to do if you don't use commas. Probably put them all in one box for now.

BUT - even though they had simply divided where I had commas, when I actually made a change to the page it refused to allow me to save the keywords that way. To make any amendments I then had to adhere to the new keyword boxes and par down to 50 characters per box.

So unless you never touch your older stuff (and I would especially keep an eye on the pages if you don't use commas) then you will have to adapt to the change from here onwards.

However, as I said before, it's not massively different, but you now get less characters. Hardly a big deal


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## PermaStudent

Harald said:


> Aha! And for those who don't use commas?


For those who don't use commas (me), the entire string of keywords goes in the first box. However, if you try to update the book, it will throw an error about too many characters being in that one box. You'll have to distribute them across the boxes (and respecting each box's character limit) going forward.

I had to cut some keywords to make things fit under the new system, but I doubt it makes a huge difference. I just reordered and cut the ones low on my list.


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## Harald

Evenstar said:


> Oh, sorry, I assumed everyone had the new page now. [...]


Thanks for explanation, Evenstar and PermaStudent. Now I'll be ready for the change.


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## Harald

Yep. Was just about to upload a revised cover draft to update my current FPO, and what do you know: I've now got the new KDP page layout (with the 7 boxes). Here we go...


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## K&#039;Sennia Visitor

I just uploaded a new book, last night, and I still had the one keyword box I've always had. I used one comma and keyword stuffed the rest. I like stuffing, tis fun.


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## Elizabeth Barone

Evenstar said:


> Hi all, sorry to post and run without answering any questions, but I'm on a deadline!
> 
> I just thought I should put in a quick update *regarding the changes to the keywords page*. So I'm copying in something I put on another forum and I hope it makes sense.
> 
> RE: The Changes
> I've been tracking mine with interest. Each of my books has a word document with blurb, ASIN, links and keywords used. I do them in word so I can count that I have my 400 keyword characters, and so I can easily tweak and then reload via copy and paste.
> 
> I loaded a book up a couple of days ago when the old page was in place. As you might know, I use the first six "strings" (divided by commas) to hit relevant categories, and then I do a long strong for searchable words.
> 
> These are the keywords:
> 
> Urban Fantasy, paranormal romance, new adult, mystery thriller suspense, Action Adventure, vampire, Arthurian legend Holy Grail Quest king Arthur time travel history witchcraft magic spells merlin witch trials salem Glastonbury conspiracy theory sacred relics PNR romantic true love destiny Highlander immortal werewolf sword sorcery gypsy blood supernatural occult demon hunter powers undead saint
> 
> I checked it today and found the new page in place. There are now seven boxes. Amazon has sorted the keywords into them by where the commas were.
> 
> In each box:
> Box 1: Urban Fantasy
> Box 2: paranormal romance
> Box 3: New adult
> Box 4: mystery thriller suspense
> Box 5: Action Adventure
> Box 6: Vampire
> Box 7: Arthurian legend Holy Grail Quest king Arthur time travel history witchcraft magic spells merlin witch trials salem Glastonbury conspiracy theory sacred relics PNR romantic true love destiny Highlander immortal werewolf sword sorcery gypsy blood supernatural occult demon hunter powers undead saint
> 
> So basically it has simply divided them where the commas were, but they are otherwise unchanged. Which is fine with me.
> 
> I'm assuming that from here on the characters allowed in each box will be less, as others have already said so, but old keywords still appear to be in place. I don't think it's anything to worry about. Just a little more work because you can't simply copy and paste.


Thanks for the breakdown! I've been using search phrases for my seven since reading your original post, but I think I'll try your current method.

You rock.


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## katrina46

elizabethbarone said:


> Thanks for the breakdown! I've been using search phrases for my seven since reading your original post, but I think I'll try your current method.
> 
> You rock.


It didn't seem to effect me. I just broke them up into separate boxes. I guess you get 50 less characters overall, but I always used ones that probably didn't help me much after i got the important ones down, so my main stuff still fits fine. I can't see this doing much in the way of stopping people from stuffing.


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## Saturday&#039;s Child

Yep, mine just switched, too. I updated my coves last night (on two books), and they both had the new boxes for keywords. They only allow 50 characters per blank and will not let you save and continue until you trim down your keywords. Keep that in mind BEFORE you mess with your book details!


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## alexabooks

Saturday's Child said:


> Yep, mine just switched, too. I updated my coves last night (on two books), and they both had the new boxes for keywords. They only allow 50 characters per blank and will not let you save and continue until you trim down your keywords. Keep that in mind BEFORE you mess with your book details!


wow, thanks for the warning! I won't mess with my keywords now for sure


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## Evenstar

alexabooks said:


> wow, thanks for the warning! I won't mess with my keywords now for sure


It will happen if you have to change anything on your book at all.

But quite honestly I wouldn't worry about it, it's just a few less words.


----------



## Stephanie Vercier

Thanks for this amazing thread Evenstar! I know I skimmed your advice before, but today I really read your first main post and latest updates and realized how repetitive and non-descriptive my keywords are. Updated both of my books, and will see if they get a bit more tread or end up in any new subcategories


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

I see that the 7 keywords are now in separate blocks with 50 characters per block. I had to take some words out of one block and put them into another when I updated something.


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## IreneP

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I see that the 7 keywords are now in separate blocks with 50 characters per block. I had to take some words out of one block and put them into another when I updated something.


Okay - just ran up against this.

Does anybody know if this changes anything else? Can we still stuff those blocks?


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## katrina46

IreneP said:


> Okay - just ran up against this.
> 
> Does anybody know if this changes anything else? Can we still stuff those blocks?


I did and people are buying my new release which just went live yesterday, so I assume the keywords are working fine.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

IreneP said:


> Okay - just ran up against this.
> 
> Does anybody know if this changes anything else? Can we still stuff those blocks?


You can add words until you get to 50 characters per block


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## Harald

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> You can add words until you get to 50 characters per block


Yep. I started a book with the single keyword block and filled it with 394 characters. When I recently went back to update the book, I was presented with the 7 blocks. I tried to "stuff" them but Zon rejected, and I had to use the 50-chr limit for each. So I just broke my long list apart, spread 'em out into the blocks, and I'm showing the same categories as before.


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## ChristinaGarner

Hey guys. I've been stalking this thread forever and have learned a lot--thank you!

I wanted to let you know that today I went to upload the final file for my preorder and noticed that some of my keywords had been deleted. (By Amazon.)

They were ones I'd separated with a comma. The other 6 strings remained intact. Just an FYI in case it happens to anyone else. I wouldn't have thought to check that except I happened to be uploading. I added them back in, sans commas, so I'll see if they stick this time.

If anyone else used commas and has the new format, I'd be curious if yours were deleted as well or if mine was an anomaly.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey guys. I've been stalking this thread forever and have learned a lot--thank you!
> 
> I wanted to let you know that today I went to upload the final file for my preorder and noticed that some of my keywords had been deleted. (By Amazon.)
> 
> They were ones I'd separated with a comma. The other 6 strings remained intact. Just an FYI in case it happens to anyone else. I wouldn't have thought to check that except I happened to be uploading. I added them back in, sans commas, so I'll see if they stick this time.
> 
> If anyone else used commas and has the new format, I'd be curious if yours were deleted as well or if mine was an anomaly.


Thanks. I've just changed mine so I will check.


----------



## IreneP

Thanks y'all. 50 char blocks. Got it!


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> Hey guys. I've been stalking this thread forever and have learned a lot--thank you!
> 
> I wanted to let you know that today I went to upload the final file for my preorder and noticed that some of my keywords had been deleted. (By Amazon.)
> 
> They were ones I'd separated with a comma. The other 6 strings remained intact. Just an FYI in case it happens to anyone else. I wouldn't have thought to check that except I happened to be uploading. I added them back in, sans commas, so I'll see if they stick this time.
> 
> If anyone else used commas and has the new format, I'd be curious if yours were deleted as well or if mine was an anomaly.


Yes, darn it. I changed all mine to phrases separated by commas and when I went back to check all I had were single words in each block. Now I'll have to return and change them all again .


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## Talbot

Personally I like the seven word block system. I don't have to count characters in a Word doc!


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## Beth_Hammond

Thank you for this post. It was interesting to see how it evolved in the comments over time as Amazon changed the allowances for characters. I feel like I'm always one step too late to get in on the good old days lol! But I've taken this and adjusted my keywords appropriately to fill ever character I could.


----------



## ChristinaGarner

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Yes, darn it. I changed all mine to phrases separated by commas and when I went back to check all I had were single words in each block. Now I'll have to return and change them all again .


The same thing has happened to me across the board. (Wasn't sure if it was a fluke the first time.)

When I removed the commas, the words stayed. Now my question is whether that block is detrimental--will searching for any of those words help with regards to results, or would it require to person to search for that basic grouping. (In the 7th block with just KWs, that would be very unlikely!)


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson

ChristinaGarner said:


> The same thing has happened to me across the board. (Wasn't sure if it was a fluke the first time.)
> 
> When I removed the commas, the words stayed. Now my question is whether that block is detrimental--will searching for any of those words help with regards to results, or would it require to person to search for that basic grouping. (In the 7th block with just KWs, that would be very unlikely!)


I wondered the same thing. If your keyword was World War Two, or World War 2, would 'World' be counted as one word and show up in something like "The World of Animals"?


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## GoingAnon

[ORIGINAL POST MODIFIED SEPT 21, 2018. I do not accept nor do I consent to KBoards/VerticalScope's Terms of Service which were implemented without proper notification. As I await a response regarding my request for full account and content deletion - pursuant to GDPR - my continued use of this forum should not be construed as consent to, nor acceptance of, KBoards/VerticalScope's aforementioned Terms of Service.


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## Donna White Glaser

I can't find anything in KDP's guidelines about using a character in keyword phrases. I know you can't use another author's name or their book title, but when I poked around in the auto-search for phrases with "funny mysteries..." one came up saying "funny mysteries like Stephanie Plum."  
Let me be clear, I in no way wish to circumvent KDP guidelines. 
Would using another author's character's name get me in trouble? Because I don't want that. No siree, bub.


----------



## Evenstar

Donna White Glaser said:


> I can't find anything in KDP's guidelines about using a character in keyword phrases. I know you can't use another author's name or their book title, but when I poked around in the auto-search for phrases with "funny mysteries..." one came up saying "funny mysteries like Stephanie Plum."
> Let me be clear, I in no way wish to circumvent KDP guidelines.
> Would using another author's character's name get me in trouble? Because I don't want that. No siree, bub.


Yes, it would. I experimented with it. I put in names like Harry Potter and Sherlock Holmes and was politely asked to remove them. However, they are names that appear in book titles, but I didn't feel like pushing my luck by experimenting with characters that are not so obviously named in the title.


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## Donna White Glaser

Yeah, my gut is saying no. I'll err on the side of not pissing Amazon off. Always the best strategy I think.


----------



## Mike Stop Continues

I'm gearing up for a series launch (and a standalone relaunch), and I've got questions!

1/ Is it wise to include generic words like "book novel fiction prose series genre" in your keywords/subtitle/series? They come up in autocomplete search a lot, but amazon might already index your books for these common words.

2/ Similarly, is it wise to include words from your book's categories, such as "fantasy thriller action adventure"? I'm pretty sure books get indexed for their category terms already.

3/ Really, does duplicating words between keywords, categories, title, subtitle, and series improve search rank? Does anyone have data to verify this?

Thanks!


----------



## Jim Johnson

Mike Stop Continues said:


> 1/ Is it wise to include generic words like "book novel fiction prose series genre" in your keywords/subtitle/series? They come up in autocomplete search a lot, but amazon might already index your books for these common words.
> 
> 2/ Similarly, is it wise to include words from your book's categories, such as "fantasy thriller action adventure"? I'm pretty sure books get indexed for their category terms already.
> 
> 3/ Really, does duplicating words between keywords, categories, title, subtitle, and series improve search rank? Does anyone have data to verify this?


1. Probably a waste of time. I'd focus keywords on meaningful words that'll get your book slotted into more relevant categories and subcategories.

2. No need if they're already in the two categories you selected.

3. I have not seen any evidence to suggest repeating words improves search results. I have my seven keyword fields filled with different keywords to take max advantage of the 50 character limit. So far, my searches have shown that no matter what order I search the words in, and no matter which fields the words are in, my books still show up in search results. The more common words sometimes end up with my book deep in the search results. There might be some alchemy involved in getting your books to consistently show up in the first couple pages of results every time, but I haven't figured that out yet.

So for now, I just input 3-6 keywords per field, filling the 50 character limit (no commas), making each keyword unique and not the same as title, subtitle, series name, or the two categories I selected for the book.

If you get new data, do share!


----------



## Mike Stop Continues

Thanks, Jim!!!


----------



## matthewsylvester

Evenstar said:


> Edited to add a summary at the bottom!
> 
> I have decided to write a dedicated thread to Keywords (just on Amazon in this post) because I am seeing this coming up so often and being answered again and again but maybe not fully enough to allay all questions. I would like to say that this is not set in stone and I don't have any data to back it up except for reading posts that other people have made on the subject and from my own personal experience of frequently playing with keywords to get it right.
> 
> *While I think that covers and blurbs generate sales, your keywords generate people looking at the book in the first place. *
> 
> Firstly I would say that one word keywords are essentially useless. If LOVE is one of my keywords, then they are too broad to get much return. If I type LOVE into Amazon search will my romance novel appear on the first page? Will it even appear on the first 100 pages? *No.* It will get me _nowhere at all!_ Using such generic terms will not help people find your book.
> 
> I used to have: _Teen Romance, young adult love, high school boys, stuff like that_. But even though all those terms are relevant to me, they also got lost in the "noise" of all the other authors with the same thing. You need to rise above the noise, but still put in keywords that people might use to search.
> 
> The key is to find keywords that are popular but not too popular. But remember, it isn't how many people search for those keywords, it is how many _hits_ those keywords produce. If it is millions then your books will be lost. *But* you want to find the keywords that millions of people are searching for and yet are not being over-used.
> 
> I absolutely know that sounds difficult but it isn't. What I mean is - if you search for_ Love_ in books you will get millions of hits, but if you search for _Werewolf Love_, you will get a much more specific list of products, if you narrow it again and search for _Werewolf and Mermaid Love_, then you should get quite a small list of hits as I can't imagine there are millions of books in that niche (if any!). So you would, in an ideal world, basically want *something between search two and search three*. See how I'm trying to narrow down a search to something that is a popular search but does not create a huge list of relevant products? You want your product to be the one that comes up at least on the first page of products that are relevant to the search.
> 
> For my book _Halloween Magic & Mayhem_, I have used _Paranormal Romance_, but then specified further using: _Paranormal Romance Witch Werewolf,_ so if people want a book that covers witches and werewolves in love then I'm up there. Then I cheated and put:_ paranormal romance witch werewolf zombies ghost shifter love._ I basically used what we call on here* "keyword stuffing"* to cover my bases. The romance is between a witch and a werewolf but there are zombies and ghosts in the story and the werewolf is a shifter. So I show up even if they are searching for a slightly different term. If they are searching for a _zombie romance_ I show up. They will quickly see that I am not a zombie romance, but they might be intrigued anyway as the book is a romance and there are zombies in it. Do you see what I am doing? I use repetition to ensure that I get close to the exact search term they might put in AND I keyword stuff to make sure that I at least have a combination of the words they put in.
> 
> People usually search for terms not for one word, so put terms in. If your book is about a human and an alien falling in love then try something like: _Paranormal love story book, alien romance sci-fi love, paranormal science fiction romance, fantasy ebook alien romantic fiction, non-human romance relationship alien lover._ See how I am using lots of different search terms for basically the same words? That's because you want to capture that market, you want to appear when people specify what they are looking for.
> 
> *If you were searching for a book like yours what would you type into Amazon?* Now try it and see how many results you get. You don't want to pick words on their own in a saturated genre (like love and romance or science fiction) because you will never show up, but equally you don't want to waste time with keywords that no-one is searching for. So it is a balancing act.
> 
> You need to take ten minutes and do some searches, you want to find terms that produce under 10,000 hits but more than just a few hundred.* You *need to decide what this figure should be, based on how niche your genre is.
> 
> Now, you don't need to have the _exact phrases_ that people are searching for, as keywords work together, and you get seven of them. But you do want to have ALL the necessary keywords if at all possible. The whole point of keyword stuffing is so that whatever phrase they type in, as long as you have the relevant keywords, then you should show up. The more spot on you are with what people search for, the more likely you will come up on that first page of results. So no, it doesn't need to be the exact wording, but I do think it helps! Basically, I think that you want to have the exact words but in any old order in your keywords. So make sure all relevant words are in there and get stuffing!
> 
> They also serve one more purpose, which is to get you in the right "categories". So when you are done with keywords relevant to search terms, then you should also have a quick think about keywords that are category specific. For example, if you want to appear in the category "Short Stories>Alien Landings>England" then you want to put that phrase in as a keyword. The best way to locate these is to do a search for a popular book that is similar to yours and see what categories they have gotten into. You will be surprised by some of the categories but a lot of people search that way, so it is a good idea to pay attention.
> Amazon will actually help you with this. There are pages in their help with guides, for example I might use this one:
> https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A1XEN0SRCO1KPB
> I can not recommend strongly enough that you at least go and have a look at some of the search terms that they suggest for your own category!
> 
> Okay, now I'm going to drill it down even further. Those of you that are already running for the hills - stop at this point and just do the bits above. Because those are the basics of how keywords seem to work on Amazon.
> 
> Now&#8230; If you have more than one book in a series, you can use tighter more specific keywords for your second book (which will of course lead people back to your first book). For your second book you can use some more unusual terms, and find smaller categories. You want words that people search for that are relevant to your book, but perhaps are not so popular.
> For instance, going back to my Magic & Mayhem series, I will stuff book one with all the more common terms about witches and love, and use phrases like _Coming of Age first kiss love teen romance_, stuff like that. But I will stuff Book Two with keywords I couldn't fit in for book one that are more specific, like: _Magic witches witchcraft Wicca pagan worship ceremony nature-worship moon goddess sorcery wizards wand occult_ (all those are just one keyword). This is to direct the more niche market to my books and also to get me into some of the very small categories that I might even hit a number one spot in, which is fantastic because it really increases visibility for the whole series.
> 
> Phew, thanks for following so far and I hope some of this helps. I'm sorry it has turned into such a monster post!
> Please, if anyone has anything to add, then I'm still keen to drill down even more! But as far as I know, that is how Amazon keywords work.
> Do you see how vitally important they can be? They shouldn't be generic and ignored! They work on a lot of levels for you. I only learned this very recently so I'm still updating a lot of my books, and playing with combinations, and doing new searches I think of or discovering new categories I want to be in, but I see an instant upswing when I get it right
> 
> _I've decided to add a summary of the above because a) this thread is really long and some of the latest information is buried in it, and b) because I'm still getting loads of PM's asking me to check keywords and a lot of people have still missed some of the crucial points._
> 
> *So, to summarise:*
> 
> - Do NOT use one-word keywords, it will be a waste.
> - Avoid really generic terms, they will get lost way down the listings.
> - You don't just get seven keywords. You get 400 characters (including spaces) and you can create up to seven "keyword strings" using those characters.
> - Start by trying to hit extra categories. Find the ones you want to be in from other books in your genre and add those categories to your keywords
> - Do keywords searches on Amazon looking for phrases relevant to your book that get a lot of results but not a ridiculous amount, so you will show up on at least the first couple of pages.
> - The jury is still out on whether you even need commas or if you can just have one long string of keywords. Personally I like commas.
> - Does repeating certain words in different strings help? I don't know, the majority seem to think it is a waste of words and you should only use each one once in the entire keyword section. That is probably true and so I recommend using variations instead, e.g. Romantic and Romance
> - Later books in the series can get really specific on keywords and hit very niche categories, which all helps, so use variety for a series rather than sticking to the same
> - If you aren't showing up in at least five categories then change them, and the same if you are not showing up on page one when you search for terms you have deliberately used
> - And keep checking searches for yourself and keep experimenting! But don't forget that Amazon remembers what you've looked for before and that will skew the data...
> - oh, and good luck


Thank you so much, I just wish I'd found this *before* releasing all of my books!


----------



## Author A.C. Salter

Brilliant thread - i've learned a mega chunk, thank you


----------



## Mike Stop Continues

Evenstar and others, the one thing I disagree with is using keywords to get into more categories. You should contact support to get added to additional ebook categories. Their official policy is 10 ebook cats total, not counting "short reads." But after you max out to ten, you can message them to add you to an a additional one or two here and there.

Any words in the entire category string get added to your effective keywords. Thus, no need to include any of those words in your keywords list. Instead, use your 350 characters for OTHER words.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Evenstar

I'd just like to reiterate (as I do once every five pages or so) that this thread is OLD. At the time I'm posting this, the thread is over 18 months old and some things have changed.  The biggest change since then being that Amazon no longer has one keyword box for a single long string (which changes the whole comma or not comma argument) and also that the character count has dropped from 400 to 350. Just putting this out there because I really don't expect anyone to read all 28 pages (as it is today) of this "monster" thread!


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## MTM

Commas or no commas? That is the question.


----------



## Jim Johnson

No commas. If you use them, once you save the book, and go back into it, all the keywords after the first comma and all the commas will be gone. You'll just have the first keyword in your list.


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## old account

I do not accept the new TOS for this site, nor do I convey any rights to the new site owner Vertical Scope.


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## matthewsylvester

I had a real play with this and it worked really well. But (and there's always a but), when I went back to tweak, I'd find the majority of keywords I'd placed in the boxes were now missing. Annoyingly, it wasn't uniform. So one box would only have one keyword, but another would have a string untouched. It's frustrating as it means that from now on I'll have to screenshot the combinations to enter into any other books in the series. But still, multiple keywords do seem to work.


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## lilywhite

matthewsylvester said:


> I had a real play with this and it worked really well. But (and there's always a but), when I went back to tweak, I'd find the majority of keywords I'd placed in the boxes were now missing. Annoyingly, it wasn't uniform. So one box would only have one keyword, but another would have a string untouched. It's frustrating as it means that from now on I'll have to screenshot the combinations to enter into any other books in the series. But still, multiple keywords do seem to work.


Did you use commas?


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