# Average Earning From A Book Per Month



## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Calling all established writers here.

I am a newbie writer. And I am really scared of spending over 2-3 months on a novel without seeing any monetary returns from it.

I am curious about the average earning you are likely to receive from a decent book (professionally edited and with a great cover). Do you sell over 5 books a day? Can you pay your bills? Is it expected? 

I know, what I am asking here varies according to the writer. Of course, Dan Brown sells thousands a day while an unknown author might not sell for a whole month.

I am just asking for your first-hand experience. What would you say?


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

There are too many variables to answer, and I think you would not find many willing to share such specific information here though I could be wrong. You can have a great cover, perfect editing but the variables begin to stack. What is the genre? Is your blurb perfect? What about the writing? Good luck with your book.


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## 101569 (Apr 11, 2018)

I've heard more than 90% of books written don't make the cost of a latte back in a year sooo. Yeah. 

There have been several here that have posted great first book returns, but most are the opposite. It's always said that writing is a marathon not a sprint.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

The likelihood of your first book making you a lot of money is low, to be honest. It does happen. Some people naturally write something that a lot of people want to read. I think it's more typical for people to need to write more than one book before they figure it out, however.

The thing is, I think most authors deal with a lot of fear about a whole lot of things. If you let that fear keep you from writing, then you're a writer who doesn't write, so that makes you... what? Writing is scary. It's a lot of risk without much reward.

I'm lucky in that I really love the actual writing part. I do that no matter what. Not everyone is like that though. Some people just like to have written. They enjoy the accomplishment, but the actual act is hard.

Anyway, I would say that if you're going to do this, you're going to have to embrace uncertainty. It's an adventure. You could fall on your face and crash and burn. It's not a sure thing. If it was, it wouldn't mean anything to undertake it, you know?


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

In terms of earnings your first book is a total gamble. By your second book you'll have learned important lessons about what's expected, and the odds may improve in your favour. By the third you'll have a clearer idea about the range of potential profit within your genre for your style of writing.

But, essentially, nobody knows anything. Even people who have been publishing for years get caught out.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Generally, odds are low. If you sell 3 a day you're killing it.

But if you have a good grasp of how to write to market, how to package what you write to market, and how to market, your odds are actually pretty good.

Nevertheless, there are far more new authors who THINK they know the market than ones who actually do. Mistakes are usually made all along the way even for successful authors.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

schttrj said:


> I am curious about the average earning you are likely to receive from a decent book (professionally edited and with a great cover).


In my opinion, a lot depends on visibility. Many books are professionally edited and boast great covers, but have telephone number ranks.

A well-written book with good packaging and zero visibility is like a beautifully-designed billboard sitting in the desert. No eyeballs, no sales.

That's the reason it's important to have a marketing strategy.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

It is not expected to make a living from your books, and extraordinarily rare to make a living from your first one. Most books sell a few copies to family and friends, and the only survey I have ever seen says that the median author makes $1,000 a year.

That said, people certainly do it, even making day-job money from one book. (But not forever unless your name is E.L James.) Nora Roberts sits in her lofty spot partly because she has put out something like a book a month for 40 years or whatever it is. The other part is that people want to read them. 

The only way to know whether you are capable of writing books that lots of people want to read is to try it. If you want a guaranteed return on your time, though, I strongly urge a second job instead.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Thanks for the replies.

I have three niches in mind: romance, thrillers and erotica.

I am in the process of writing one in the romance. So, can't say how good the blurb is or whether  my story will turn out good enough.

But what I really wanted to know is, how much can an average author (not E.L. James) hope to make by writing decent books that meet the market? I guess I am being confusing.
E
Just keeping it simple. How much do you make every month from your books? If I may ask you that...


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## Trioxin 245 (Dec 29, 2017)

schttrj said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Just keeping it simple. How much do you make every month?


...


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Trioxin 245 said:


> ...


Hehe...that was a little direct or inappropriate I guess. But I could not make my point otherwise.

Just a rough idea, like how much do you make from your novels? Like over 1k or or over 5k? Just to give me an idea.

I know, it does not mean I will see the same returna and that it still depends. But answers in the community is so diverse. Some advise not to write for money while others advise not to leave the day job. I am looking to shift full to this. Hope you understand.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

How long is a piece of string?

Some authors' books are still in the red. Others make over $100,000 per month. The sky is the limit, really, but most people don't touch the sky. But here you go. This should answer your questions.

http://authorearnings.com/report/may-2016-report/

Keep in mind that these are GROSS numbers; they don't include things like marketing spend.

9,900 authors made $10,000 a year or more on Amazon alone
4,600 authors made $25,000+
2,500 authors made $50,000+
1,340 authors made $100,000+
700 authors made $250,000+ (approx; no tally given but I estimated the total from the bars)
425 authors made $500,000+ (approx)
140 authors made $1,000,000+ (approx)

There's some number of millions (10 million?) ebooks in the Amazon store, and at least hundreds of thousands of authors currently writing (nobody knows the exact number). If about 10,000 make $10,000 or more, and there are, say, 300,000 authors publishing, 3% of authors make $10,000 a year or more.

Does that mean your chance of making that much is 3%? Nope. Not all authors are equal, and not all books are equal. Your chances may be great. They may be terrible. Depends on the genre and the book, and nobody can answer that, especially for a book you haven't written yet.

Don't quit the day job.  And remember that your books will need an editor, probably a couple if English is not your native language. Hoping to shift to "full" (full-time?) without even having written a book is . . . ambitious. (I did it, so it's not impossible, but it's probably stupid!)

P.S.: Listen to Annie.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

If you're going to write erotica, you need to write several shorts a week and in a hot niche. Even then, it doesn't mean you'll make much.

With Romance, you need several books, well written, to make money.

I strongly recommend you read the Author Earnings Report. 

I'm getting the impression you think you'll earn 1K in your first month. That's like hitting the lottery--there is a always a chance you can do it but the odds are, you won't. Just a reality check.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

schttrj said:


> Calling all established writers here.
> 
> I am a newbie writer. And I am really scared of spending over 2-3 months on a novel without seeing any monetary returns from it.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? If you're worried of spending time working on a novel that might not earn you your money back, then you might want to look elsewhere to make money. It doesn't work like that--where you write something and the masses immediately come and buy your book. It's impossible to say what your book might do given that sales depends on genre, visibility, packaging, THE WRITING, and many other variables. Going into this with an expectation of making money right away is, imo, self defeating.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

If you wouldn't do it without the prospect of making money don't do it.


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## katewrath (Jul 9, 2018)

I strongly believe that if you do not love to write you absolutely should not be a writer.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Rose Andrews said:


> Are you kidding? If you're worried of spending time working on a novel that might not earn you your money back, then you might want to look elsewhere to make money. It doesn't work like that--where you write something and the masses immediately come and buy your book. It's impossible to say what your book might do given that sales depends on genre, visibility, packaging, THE WRITING, and many other variables. Going into this with an expectation of making money right away is, imo, self defeating.


I won't say, I don't agree with you. But, paying bills matter more than creating art, right? I guess I am just a little doubtful in that sense.



dianapersaud said:


> If you're going to write erotica, you need to write several shorts a week and in a hot niche. Even then, it doesn't mean you'll make much.
> 
> With Romance, you need several books, well written, to make money.
> 
> ...


Yes, I read the report. Well, it seems...umm...inspiring? And thanks for the tips for different genres. For erotica, you said 'shorts'. Does it mean around 3k words?



Usedtoposthere said:


> How long is a piece of string?
> 
> Some authors' books are still in the red. Others make over $100,000 per month. The sky is the limit, really, but most people don't touch the sky. But here you go. This should answer your questions.
> 
> ...


Nice catch there. I was typing on my phone. Hehe.

Well, even if I don't leave my job now, I would love to see myself able to quit at least a year into this thing. I just needed to know whether it is doable. I think the report did straighten out a few doubts for me. But then again, the percentage of people earning a minimum living is quite low. Whew!



Annie B said:


> Romance, thrillers, and erotica are broad categories. What sub-genres? Do you have a series plan or will every book stand alone? Are you doing pen names (I would advise it, with those categories)?
> 
> Nobody can tell you an average because it doesn't exist. How much I make or anyone else makes is irrelevant because your book might sell better or worse. I mean, I've had months in the last 8 years where I made 3 dollars and months where I made over 100k. It just depends...
> 
> Pick a genre you love and know well. Write good books. Put great, genre-appropriate, professional covers on them. Get good, professional editing. Write a hooky, genre-appropriate description. Market well. Do all that... you might still make 0 dollars. Or you might make millions. There's no way to know before you try.


Well, frankly speaking, I could not think that specifically at this point. Like all I know is, it's going to be different and it revolves around love.  I heard that series does better when compared to stand-alone novels. Thanks for the multiple pen names idea. Makes sense for the erotica for sure.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Let me ask you another question. If you have never written any fiction, what makes you think that you can reach the top 1% of published authors within a year? Do you have any evidence that you are a good writer?

The answer is probably important if you are somehow expecting that level of success. 

I am not saying it is impossible. I did it, and so did others. However, I had done a lot of writing that was applicable, even though it was not fiction.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

schttrj said:


> I am a newbie writer. And I am really scared of spending over 2-3 months on a novel without seeing any monetary returns from it.


Every successful writer here was once a newbie writer who spent several months on their first novel without any promise of seeing any monetary return from it. That's the cost of becoming an author. If you're not willing to do that, you probably won't get very far.

Also, am I correct in thinking that you've never written a novel before? And you want to be full time in a year? Personally, I'd suggest maybe spending a bit of time on learning how to write a compelling story before you ask people to pay for your work.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Rose Andrews said:


> Are you kidding? If you're worried of spending time working on a novel that might not earn you your money back, then you might want to look elsewhere to make money. It doesn't work like that--where you write something and the masses immediately come and buy your book. It's impossible to say what your book might do given that sales depends on genre, visibility, packaging, THE WRITING, and many other variables. Going into this with an expectation of making money right away is, imo, self defeating.


Sorry to the OP but I agree with this comment.

If you think about it when a new director makes a movie, they have no idea how well that movie will perform even if it's in the most popular genre like an action adventure. They do their research and either write or buy a good script and then make their movie (there are other steps in between). He/she could have a blockbuster on their hands. They make the movie because they love movies and being creative. Not to get rich quick.

Same goes with writing a song, singing a song or creating a piece of artwork.

You could start making rent money in your first month or Starbucks coffee money. It depends what you write, how you package it, if it entertains some readers, how you promote it and if you build a loyal fanbase in one genre. Are you planning to write a long series, standalones, novels, novellas? This can all affect your sales and earnings.

I've read about authors who had success out of the gate, there is one on this site and I have read her books, J. Bengtsson who wrote 'Cake' a romance novel (first in a series). I have communicated with 4 or 5 authors who have had success straight out of the gate. Then you will see stories of authors who find success by book 4 or 8.

If you're worried about money then keep the day job until you feel comfortable to quit. Save your earnings so you can eventually write full time and pay all your bills comfortably. Keep production costs low.

Looking at your questions, you need to do some basic research about erotica, romance and any other genre you want to write. Search this website and google some questions, there are some good blogs and even youtube videos with info on writing romance, erotica and thrillers. There are books on self-publishing too. Some of the authors are members here.

You can watch interviews with self-published authors in the genre you like. I watch them all the time.

Check out The creative penn blog (she has podcasts, industry news and interviews with authors) https://www.thecreativepenn.com/blog/


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Let me ask you another question. If you have never written any fiction, what makes you think that you can reach the top 1% of published authors within a year? Do you have any evidence that you are a good writer?
> 
> The answer is probably important if you are somehow expecting that level of success.
> 
> I am not saying it is impossible. I did it, and so did others. However, I had done a lot of writing that was applicable, even though it was not fiction.


Well, I work as a full-time copywriter at present. But answering your question, no, I would not expect to reach the top 1% in a year or maybe in a lifetime. Life is not so predictable, after all. But at least $500 per month? I mean, something to keep me going? So, I was just getting the general consensus from people who had the first-hand experience, like talking with real-life authors who are live their art and make a living out of it.



Annie B said:


> If you want to make a living as a writer, you need a plan. You need to know what you are going to be writing, how you are going to publish (self? trad? hybrid?), and how, if you go into publishing yourself, you are going to afford what you need to get off the ground. Basically, make a business plan, set achievable goals for yourself, and budget both your time and your monies accordingly.
> 
> Writing is an art and a craft. Publishing is a business. If you want to make money from your writing, best get savvy about business.


Yes, I am looking to self-publish, or maybe, try with a small indie publishing company, more preferably self-publishing. The biggest expense might be hiring a pro editor I guess.



ShayneRutherford said:


> Every successful writer here was once a newbie writer who spent several months on their first novel without any promise of seeing any monetary return from it. That's the cost of becoming an author. If you're not willing to do that, you probably won't get very far.
> 
> Also, am I correct in thinking that you've never written a novel before? And you want to be full time in a year? Personally, I'd suggest maybe spending a bit of time on learning how to write a compelling story before you ask people to pay for your work.


You are correct in thinking that. But if I finish a few within a year, won't I make any significant progress? As I said to Usedtoposthere that of course, I am willing to put in the effort because that's taken, right? How can someone become a doctor without passing the med school? But let's say, you want to talk with a few doctors before you enrol in the med school to find out about the work, the environment or the monetary returns. That's what I was asking for.

Ultimately, it will still depend on the quality of my work and the marketing that goes behind it. I know that.


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## OnlyTheGrotesqueKnow (Jun 10, 2018)

Dpock said:


> If you wouldn't do it without the prospect of making money don't do it.


This is the gold. If you boil everyone else's advice down it becomes this.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

schttrj said:


> You are correct in thinking that. But if I finish a few within a year, won't I make any significant progress? As I said to Usedtoposthere that of course, I am willing to put in the effort because that's taken, right? How can someone become a doctor without passing the med school? But let's say, you want to talk with a few doctors before you enrol in the med school to find out about the work, the environment or the monetary returns. That's what I was asking for.
> 
> Ultimately, it will still depend on the quality of my work and the marketing that goes behind it. I know that.


There are so many variables that it's impossible to tell if you'll make significant progress. There's the quality of the work, for sure. But even great work won't sell if you can't get eyes on it. So you have to advertise, which costs money. And you have to learn how to do ads well, because if you don't, they won't give you much return on investment. And I think I saw something mentioned about erotica, which is harder to advertise than any other genre, because a lot of places just won't run ads for it, and the more taboo stuff will often get dungeoned.

We have people here who've made millions, and we have people here who can buy dinner out once a month. There are tons of published books out there that have never sold a single copy. Ever. You can tell because they don't have any rank at all. There is just about every possible outcome, from making $0 to making hundreds of thousands in your first year. But you're asking people for specifics, which are basically useless, because they're not specific to you. And then there's the fact that, you could be the greatest wordsmith in the world, but if you don't write something that people want to read, you won't be able to give it away, never mind make $500 a month on it.

I know a girl who's been at this publishing gig for years. She's super prolific, and has a whole bunch of books out. But in the many years she's been at this, she's made less than $5k total, across all of her books, because a) they don't have a large built-in audience anyway, and b) she has a hard time getting them in front of the people who will buy them.

My point in mentioning that is, everyone wants to think that their work will fly off the virtual shelves, but in most cases, the sad reality is that it just won't. So until you get some stuff out there and see how it sells, you shouldn't assume anything, regardless of what other authors have managed to do.


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## AliceS (Dec 28, 2014)

When I started writing, maybe 2013, the advice was that you'd start making decent money by the 3rd book in a series. Then it shifted to 5. Then I heard it was 10, I think it's up to 20 now. I've had good months and bad, but even with 10 books now, I don't have "quit the day job" money coming in consistently. Sales are out of your hands. You can plan promos that flop and promos that make books fly off the shelf without knowing what was different. Was it the month, day, genre, promo site? Did the promo have a tail? Did your book fall below the cutoff line on gmail in a newsletter? 

Basically there are no rules to this game right now. You write, publish, form a marketing plan and wait.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Since you asked for specific numbers, my least profitable book has earned $35 in it's lifetime. My most profitable has earned $104,000 across several years. The rest fall somewhere in the middle. But looking at Author Earnings Reports will give you a much better idea of averages than collecting individual data points. Unfortunately, it isn't like other jobs, where we can predict a typical yearly income. Like others have said, there are way too many variables at play. There are people who go in with certain advantages that increase their odds, like writing speed and skill, a marketing background, and money to invest in the product and the advertising. There are others who start from nowhere and take lots of years and many books to get off the ground, if they ever do at all. 

That's why the advice upthread is important. You have to love what you're doing because there's a chance that pleasure and pride in the stories you've brought to life will be the biggest thing you take away. I'm not saying you shouldn't think about making a living and take steps to try and bring that about. It's certainly very possible to do well. Many of us here make a livable income. Just saying there's an element of gambling involved and, even when you beat the odds, the income is unreliable and can go away as quickly as it came.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

dianapersaud said:


> If you're going to write erotica, you need to write several shorts a week and in a hot niche. Even then, it doesn't mean you'll make much.
> 
> With Romance, you need several books, well written, to make money.
> 
> ...


I think 1k of earnings in month one is very doable if you know what you're doing and you have a production and marketing budget. The trouble is, most of us take awhile to figure out what we're doing. And many new writers don't have much budget to work with.

My first year of publishing (starting from the day I release my very first book) I put out three books and made less than 1k.

My second year, I put out four or five more books and made six-figures. (I think month 14 was my first four-figure month and month 20ish was my first WOAH month, but, by that point I was pouring my profits back into the business with heavy marketing).

I'm about to close out my fourth year (put out my very first book in early August) and I make six-figures. But I still couldn't tell you what an average book makes. Those first three books are currently unpublished because they don't represent what I want to do. My fourth book still makes money every day. It struggled when it first came out because I had no visibility, but once I got my marketing going, it started making money.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Not sure where in the world you live (and therefore can’t be sure about wages), but if you’re motivated to make some extra cash for bills, there has got to be about a million other jobs that are more likely to make $500 a month than writing fiction.

You say you’re a copywriter. So am I. Last financial year I made an extra $500 a month from freelance copywriting and journalism. Maybe try that?

Because there are absolutely no guarantees (or even reasonable probabilities) with making cash with fiction, I think you kind of have to be motivated by the “artistic” side of things. Otherwise your valuable time is probably better spent doing something that involves a signed contract and an agreed upon payment.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I strongly suggest you write your book in your free time and keep a day job to make the money. 

That way if it does make you anything then it's a bonus. And if it does well then you can think about maybe quitting the day job. Do not give up a job to become a writer if you need money!


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

If you are worried about wasting 2-3 months of your valuable time on a venture that might not make you money, I suggest you find a different get-rich-quick scheme. Almost every successful author has written a book that bombed. For a first book to sell $500 in a month in its first year is a rarity.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

brkingsolver said:


> If you are worried about wasting 2-3 months of your valuable time on a venture that might not make you money, I suggest you find a different get-rich-quick scheme. Almost every successful author has written a book that bombed. For a first book to sell $500 in a month in its first year is a rarity.


Exactly.


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## The one with all the big dresses on the covers (Jan 25, 2016)

schttrj said:


> How can someone become a doctor without passing the med school? But let's say, you want to talk with a few doctors before you enrol in the med school to find out about the work, the environment or the monetary returns. That's what I was asking for.
> 
> Ultimately, it will still depend on the quality of my work and the marketing that goes behind it. I know that.


I can understand wanting to explore some of this background before diving in. And if that's the real motivation behind your post, then my response would be that it's a pretty high stress life. The workload is heavy, there's constant pressure from feeling like you could be doing more (because you always could be!) and there are a lot of unknowns and uncertainties. Of course there are a lot of rewards, too, but they're probably more immediately apparent  If that sounds like it would be a deal breaker for you, then I wouldn't recommend pursuing a writing career.

I think what most people are reacting to in this thread, however, is that starting to work towards a writing career is unfortunately no guarantee of ever having a writing career. (Which is why most people start by writing a book because of interest/passion and then go from there.) That's where publishing really differs from something like med school. It might be a slightly closer analogy to think of it like doing a humanities degree. Some degrees lead into obvious jobs (e.g. a teaching degree, medical degree, engineering degree, etc), but that's not really true for humanities degrees. So you invest years of your life and a fair amount of money and at the end of it some people get amazing jobs, and some people end up in jobs that they almost certainly could have gotten without ever doing a degree at all. But hopefully they enjoyed the experience along the way, the knowledge they gained, and the friends they made 

And this university analogy is actually how I went into publishing. After I completed my first manuscript, I decided that I would treat indie publishing somewhat similarly to doing a degree. So I would give it three years (the length of a standard undergrad degree in Australia) and a reasonable investment of money, and my expectation was that at the end of that three years, I would have a reasonable idea of whether or not it would be possible to meet my (relatively modest) financial goals through publishing. (Note that I didn't expect I would have met those goals by then--because I don't think you can have those sorts of expectations--but I did think that at the end of three years, I should have a reasonable idea of what my prospects were.)


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## Rod Little (Jun 18, 2017)

schttrj, you should write only out of love for it (or at least 50% love). If you do it only to make money, it's the wrong profession. 3 months is not a long time, as some people take 8 months to a year (years) to complete a novel.
However, I've heard that non-fiction is more lucrative. If you want to write for money, try writing a self-help book or business starter plan. Those sell like candy at $19 each, while a $3 novel is hard to sell.

Whichever path you take, good luck!


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

How much would you earn if you started playing golf every day? 
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to put your question into a realistic perspective. Writing income is not based on output, at least not until everything else related to the product is perfect. People don't expect to earn a living based on how much time they spend doing a sport, but many think like that when they consider going full-time in the arts/craft. The odds are similar between sport and the art/crafts. Most people will pay out money to become a part of those activities, and only a minority earn a living. The bulk of the money would be earned from the service industries. Even if enthusiasts upped their production, that's not enough, on its own, to start earning money. 

Most authors in this forum would be skilled, income earning authors, due to the forum's focus being on marketing, so even if we stated our incomes, that wouldn't give you a representation of what to expect if you duplicated our word-count output. It's great to have realistic dreams, and they are achievable if you can be seen to excel, and there is a market for your product. I hope you achieve your goals. This is a great forum to learn the business side of the writing craft. Just consider the wise advice being given. Write for the love of it. You don't go into fiction writing to earn money. Even those who can earn money writing will tell you you cannot depend on this industry for a consistent income.


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

Not that many people have given specific numbers, but I'd wager that the 'average' you'd find on kboards is higher than the real average. In other corners of the internet there are plenty of people struggling to sell even ten copies.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

ShayneRutherford said:


> There are so many variables that it's impossible to tell if you'll make significant progress. There's the quality of the work, for sure. But even great work won't sell if you can't get eyes on it. So you have to advertise, which costs money. And you have to learn how to do ads well, because if you don't, they won't give you much return on investment. And I think I saw something mentioned about erotica, which is harder to advertise than any other genre, because a lot of places just won't run ads for it, and the more taboo stuff will often get dungeoned.
> 
> We have people here who've made millions, and we have people here who can buy dinner out once a month. There are tons of published books out there that have never sold a single copy. Ever. You can tell because they don't have any rank at all. There is just about every possible outcome, from making $0 to making hundreds of thousands in your first year. But you're asking people for specifics, which are basically useless, because they're not specific to you. And then there's the fact that, you could be the greatest wordsmith in the world, but if you don't write something that people want to read, you won't be able to give it away, never mind make $500 a month on it.
> 
> ...


I see your point. So yes, it's a _gamble_ anyway !



Crystal_ said:


> I think 1k of earnings in month one is very doable if you know what you're doing and you have a production and marketing budget. The trouble is, most of us take awhile to figure out what we're doing. And many new writers don't have much budget to work with.
> 
> My first year of publishing (starting from the day I release my very first book) I put out three books and made less than 1k.
> 
> ...


I think you said something about 'shorts'. What did you mean by that? Like 3k words or something for erotica?

And that was a very good answer. I wasn't looking for a specific number but a ballpark figure you provided was what I was looking for. May I ask which genre you write in?



Carol (was Dara) said:


> Since you asked for specific numbers, my least profitable book has earned $35 in it's lifetime. My most profitable has earned $104,000 across several years. The rest fall somewhere in the middle. But looking at Author Earnings Reports will give you a much better idea of averages than collecting individual data points. Unfortunately, it isn't like other jobs, where we can predict a typical yearly income. Like others have said, there are way too many variables at play. There are people who go in with certain advantages that increase their odds, like writing speed and skill, a marketing background, and money to invest in the product and the advertising. There are others who start from nowhere and take lots of years and many books to get off the ground, if they ever do at all.
> 
> That's why the advice upthread is important. You have to love what you're doing because there's a chance that pleasure and pride in the stories you've brought to life will be the biggest thing you take away. I'm not saying you shouldn't think about making a living and take steps to try and bring that about. It's certainly very possible to do well. Many of us here make a livable income. Just saying there's an element of gambling involved and, even when you beat the odds, the income is unreliable and can go away as quickly as it came.


Right, I understand. May I know which genre you write in?

Looked at the Author Earnings Report. Seems only a few thousands are earning handsome (or let's say, respectable) money from it.

And yes, it's a business after all. You never know when profits start rolling in. 


brkingsolver said:


> If you are worried about wasting 2-3 months of your valuable time on a venture that might not make you money, I suggest you find a different get-rich-quick scheme. Almost every successful author has written a book that bombed. For a first book to sell $500 in a month in its first year is a rarity.


Please check my answers on the thread. If I would have wanted to "get rich quick", I would have mined bitcoins and not lingered on Kboards.



MelanieCellier said:


> I can understand wanting to explore some of this background before diving in. And if that's the real motivation behind your post, then my response would be that it's a pretty high stress life. The workload is heavy, there's constant pressure from feeling like you could be doing more (because you always could be!) and there are a lot of unknowns and uncertainties. Of course there are a lot of rewards, too, but they're probably more immediately apparent  If that sounds like it would be a deal breaker for you, then I wouldn't recommend pursuing a writing career.
> 
> I think what most people are reacting to in this thread, however, is that starting to work towards a writing career is unfortunately no guarantee of ever having a writing career. (Which is why most people start by writing a book because of interest/passion and then go from there.) That's where publishing really differs from something like med school. It might be a slightly closer analogy to think of it like doing a humanities degree. Some degrees lead into obvious jobs (e.g. a teaching degree, medical degree, engineering degree, etc), but that's not really true for humanities degrees. So you invest years of your life and a fair amount of money and at the end of it some people get amazing jobs, and some people end up in jobs that they almost certainly could have gotten without ever doing a degree at all. But hopefully they enjoyed the experience along the way, the knowledge they gained, and the friends they made
> 
> And this university analogy is actually how I went into publishing. After I completed my first manuscript, I decided that I would treat indie publishing somewhat similarly to doing a degree. So I would give it three years (the length of a standard undergrad degree in Australia) and a reasonable investment of money, and my expectation was that at the end of that three years, I would have a reasonable idea of whether or not it would be possible to meet my (relatively modest) financial goals through publishing. (Note that I didn't expect I would have met those goals by then--because I don't think you can have those sorts of expectations--but I did think that at the end of three years, I should have a reasonable idea of what my prospects were.)


Spot on! And I totally agree with your humanities degree analogy. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I am just curious what you would have to say after these initial 3 years that is probably over by now?



Rod Little said:


> schttrj, you should write only out of love for it (or at least 50% love). If you do it only to make money, it's the wrong profession. 3 months is not a long time, as some people take 8 months to a year (years) to complete a novel.
> However, I've heard that non-fiction is more lucrative. If you want to write for money, try writing a self-help book or business starter plan. Those sell like candy at $19 each, while a $3 novel is hard to sell.
> 
> Whichever path you take, good luck!


You bring up a good point. Don't fiction sell more than non-fiction? That's what I heard.


Ryn Shell said:


> How much would you earn if you started playing golf every day?
> I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to put your question into a realistic perspective. Writing income is not based on output, at least not until everything else related to the product is perfect. People don't expect to earn a living based on how much time they spend doing a sport, but many think like that when they consider going full-time in the arts/craft. The odds are similar between sport and the art/crafts. Most people will pay out money to become a part of those activities, and only a minority earn a living. The bulk of the money would be earned from the service industries. Even if enthusiasts upped their production, that's not enough, on its own, to start earning money.
> 
> Most authors in this forum would be skilled, income earning authors, due to the forum's focus being on marketing, so even if we stated our incomes, that wouldn't give you a representation of what to expect if you duplicated our word-count output. It's great to have realistic dreams, and they are achievable if you can be seen to excel, and there is a market for your product. I hope you achieve your goals. This is a great forum to learn the business side of the writing craft. Just consider the wise advice being given. Write for the love of it. You don't go into fiction writing to earn money. Even those who can earn money writing will tell you you cannot depend on this industry for a consistent income.


Of course, not.

As I have written in my replies, others' successes do not guarantee mine. I know that.

But, I was trying to get the opinion of people who had the first-hand experience and are earning a living from it.

From your reply, I get the hint that yes, earning a decent living is doable indeed. I know I sound rather materialistic and that's where I might be conveying the wrong idea.

You see, I LOVE writing and am trying to figure out if I could pursue my love without depriving myself of the basic needs of life. 

Although I do appreciate your telling to write not for money but for passion, a little more specific advice about the genre you write in, the number of books you have written and whether what you are getting in return (even ballpark estimates) is good enough for you.

Help a beginner out, please?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I did it exactly like this. Quit a job as a copywriter, among other things, one week into writing my first novel. 
But:
-- I had very successfully written a lot of things for a long time. (The copywriter part alone was 10 years plus)
— I had a 20-year career in publishing—the other parts were editing, marketing, and the business end. 
— I had worked for myself for several years and had an MBA. I was a self starter all the way. 
— I had been a voracious reader since the age of 4. 
— I had a story that was pouring out of me, that I KNEW would work so great as a romance
And would have such a great hook. The 25k or so I wrote that first week was good—at least good enough to be published. I had enough background to judge that. 
—It was a different time in publishing. Still the Wild West. Many fewer players and fewer barriers. A breakout by an underfunded newbie was possible. 
I was still nuts, of course. I wrote two more books, went back and edited books 1 and 2’again. Then again. (Book 3 I barely touched; it was a magic book.) I learned to write blurbs and queried. I learned how to write blurbs better. I found a cover artist via a methodical search. I edited my books again (still not book 3) to get them better. And finally, 10 months later, I published all of them together, paid $10 for a couple promo sites, changed book 1 to free for 3 days, and hoped. 14,500 people downloaded them, and in the next 3 weeks, 2,000 people bought my [email protected] books, and I had earned $5,000 in month 1. I gritted my teeth and wrote book 4 through increasing anxiety, and published it 3 months later. A couple bloggers picked me up and in month 5, magic happened and I made $30,000. 

It worked. I have done very well ever since. But it was a different time. I was by no means the most successful indie who put out her first book in that period. Nowhere close. I did have a strong book premise, a very unique hook,  and the marketing chops to recognize its worth, and I had decades as a very good copywriter,  business writer, informal newsletter writer. I heard how people talked, and I was sensitive to how they felt. Right time,’right place. 

This is not 2011 or 2012, though, and above all, you do not know yet how well you can tell a gripping story with a premise lots of people want to pick up. How well you can polish it, and how to market it in a much more competitive landscape. It is certainly possible, but even I, with my caveats around my own fair success, would not say it is anything but a perfect storm.

If people had told me I would crash and burn, I would have quit. I almost did, because of doomsaying. Who was I to write a New Zealand rugby romance? The idea was stupid. But I did go ahead, because I liked the books. And they sold and kept selling. There are millions of stories like that, so by all means try. Just make your first effort as good as you can get it, and be prepared to pick yourself up when you fail. 

And do not be like me and quit your job. Unless you really hate it.


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## Goulburn (May 21, 2014)

schttrj said:


> ... what you are getting in return (even ballpark estimates) is good enough for you.
> 
> Help a beginner out, please?


I don't appreciated being asked to reveal my income, and how I earn it, by a total stranger. You have been given industry specifics. This is where I leave the conversation.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I did it exactly like this. Quit a job as a copywriter, among other things, one week into writing my first novel.
> But:
> -- I had very successfully written a lot of things for a long time. (The copywriter part alone was 10 years plus)
> - I had a 20-year career in publishing-the other parts were editing, marketing, and the business end.
> ...


Ah, delighted to read that.

Well yes, times are different now. But you inspire me.

You still write in romance?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

schttrj said:


> Ah, delighted to read that.
> 
> Well yes, times are different now. But you inspire me.
> 
> You still write in romance?


Yes. I have written 25 long novels and one novella in six and a half years. However, what happened to me was RARE, it was a long time ago when it was much easier to get started, I had a killer story premise and unique knowledge, and to be frank, you do not write English as a native speaker, which will make your journey slower and more costly. Sure, you should try. Why not? But go into it with an attitude of trying and seeing. It is about as lousy a way to make guaranteed income from a whole lot of effort as it is possible to imagine, except for a small number of lucky, talented, persistent, dogged, or whatever you want to call them folks. Counting on success before having written or even starting a book would be extremely unwise.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

No, I don't write shorts. I write new adult romance, 75-100k word novels, mostly in series. I market a lot. A lot. I spend about a third of my revenue on marketing.

I did write a few serials when that was the rage, but I've repackaged them as novels.


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## thanksfortheadvice (Aug 24, 2017)

My brother has finished 4 full length military/espionage thrillers. We’ve published 2 since December 2017. We have a professional editor in the family, so editing for the first 2 was free. The first cover cost $280 for both print and ebook. The second cover was free from the CoverShark deal Lucas ran on Kboards. 

Both books are in Select. I’ve run AMS ads from the beginning (high and low CPC). Which have yielded 250% ROI, but I can’t scale them up. We’ve also run Bargain Booksy promos and BoobBub CPC ads. My brother writes a monthly blog on international political trends with a small-ish e-mail list that we’ve tapped. When people read the books, they seem to love them...but getting visibility and reviews have been extraordinarily challenging. 

Net profit to date... -$43.52

I won’t go into the numbers for my writing. I write historical action adventure for teens (boys). All I can say is — it’s a good thing mine is more of a passion project, because that might be all I ever get out of it.  

I know others on this forum have had great success. I’ve learned a lot by lurking here. Mostly, though, I learned that immediate and/or consistent success is the exception, not the rule. This is actually comforting as I try different tactics and mostly crash and burn. It’s a challenge and keeps my overactive imagination from destroying the truly important things in my life. But I wouldn’t bet on $50 the first book out, much less $500.

Still...here’s hoping you beat the odds.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

schttrj said:


> Right, I understand. May I know which genre you write in?


Fantasy and mystery are my genres. I dabbled in romance for awhile but gave it up quickly because I didn't have a good grasp of what romance readers wanted, at the time. Lesson learned: be very familiar with a genre before you try to write it. Also, if monsters and dead people keeping popping up in your sweet romance, you might not be sweet romance material.


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## 9 Diamonds (Oct 4, 2016)

schttrj said:


> Just keeping it simple. How much do you make every month from your books? If I may ask you that...


Not enough


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

pklasky said:


> My brother has finished 4 full length military/espionage thrillers. We've published 2 since December 2017. We have a professional editor in the family, so editing for the first 2 was free. The first cover cost $280 for both print and ebook. The second cover was free from the CoverShark deal Lucas ran on Kboards.
> 
> Both books are in Select. I've run AMS ads from the beginning (high and low CPC). Which have yielded 250% ROI, but I can't scale them up. We've also run Bargain Booksy promos and BoobBub CPC ads. My brother writes a monthly blog on international political trends with a small-ish e-mail list that we've tapped. When people read the books, they seem to love them...but getting visibility and reviews have been extraordinarily challenging.
> 
> ...


That sounds rather dim. But point noted.



RightHoJeeves said:


> Not sure where in the world you live (and therefore can't be sure about wages), but if you're motivated to make some extra cash for bills, there has got to be about a million other jobs that are more likely to make $500 a month than writing fiction.
> 
> You say you're a copywriter. So am I. Last financial year I made an extra $500 a month from freelance copywriting and journalism. Maybe try that?
> 
> Because there are absolutely no guarantees (or even reasonable probabilities) with making cash with fiction, I think you kind of have to be motivated by the "artistic" side of things. Otherwise your valuable time is probably better spent doing something that involves a signed contract and an agreed upon payment.


Actually, I want to shift to the creative side of writing. But, it seems it's more an artistic affair than a business one. 



Usedtoposthere said:


> Yes. I have written 25 long novels and one novella in six and a half years. However, what happened to me was RARE, it was a long time ago when it was much easier to get started, I had a killer story premise and unique knowledge, and to be frank, you do not write English as a native speaker, which will make your journey slower and more costly. Sure, you should try. Why not? But go into it with an attitude of trying and seeing. It is about as lousy a way to make guaranteed income from a whole lot of effort as it is possible to imagine, except for a small number of lucky, talented, persistent, dogged, or whatever you want to call them folks. Counting on success before having written or even starting a book would be extremely unwise.


Rare, indeed. Though you seem to come from the same place as I am, times have changed. But thanks for your advice.



Crystal_ said:


> No, I don't write shorts. I write new adult romance, 75-100k word novels, mostly in series. I market a lot. A lot. I spend about a third of my revenue on marketing.
> 
> I did write a few serials when that was the rage, but I've repackaged them as novels.


Yes, I heard that shorts are not working well in erotica as it used to. People seem to like novels better. And AMS keeps popping up from time to time, it seems.



Carol (was Dara) said:


> Fantasy and mystery are my genres. I dabbled in romance for awhile but gave it up quickly because I didn't have a good grasp of what romance readers wanted, at the time. Lesson learned: be very familiar with a genre before you try to write it. Also, if monsters and dead people keeping popping up in your sweet romance, you might not be sweet romance material.


Ha ha...can't say I am romance material either. I don't like those mushy, feely types.



verysecretsquirrel said:


> Since you mentioned erotica, I will chip in.
> 
> I have been writing and publishing erotica since April 2016. In that month, I made the awe-inspiring sum of $75. From that date to this, monthly income has averaged $1,500: about $115 'wide', the balance from Amazon. I went wide in April 2017, BTW. I now have over 100 short stories in my catalogue, including some 'bundles' of three previously-published stories.
> 
> ...


You don't know how much I cherish your comment. I actually had this question in mind when I asked about shorts to Crystal_ and you answered it.

So, shorts do work! And it seems curious that you don't dabble in marketing and still do so well in your business.

I couldn't understand what you meant by 'wide' BTW. I mean, I am not so well versed in Kindle speak, you see.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

If you dn not like mushy, feely types, you are likely to have a rough time selling romance. I concur with others: write a genre that you understand inside out. Writing romance, despite what many think, is not easy, and it is enormously competitive. 

Shorts mainly work in erotica.


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## Chris2pher (Jul 20, 2018)

I'm new to self-publishing so I can't as of yet speak to that, but I've been writing for thirty years and publishing for ten, so I can say this:  Writing is in most cases a labor of love, something that one does because at some point they were moved by the written word and discovered in themselves a passion to create the same sort of art.  

Let me ask you this:  Do you want to write and publish a book solely because it looks like a way to make a quick buck, or do you also have an underlying love and passion for the craft of writing as well?  I ask this because of your premise that you are worried that taking three months to do something (like write a book) would be wasted time if you saw no monetary return on it.  

I believe that writing well and being successful at it is a combination of innate talent, hard work and educating one's self in the craft.  The amount of each varies by the individual writer, and you'll see success stories based on each of those three tenants, but I believe a successful writer has to have at least a little of each of these going for them to succeed.  

Talent:  This actually can be difficult to gage in one's self early on.  (more on this in a moment)
Hard Work:  There's almost no getting around this part.
Education:  This can be as simple as rote practice (you usually get better at something the more you do it) or reading a book on writing, or as involved as getting an MA in creative writing.  This varies by the individual as well, and of course no amount of it is a guarantee of success.  

One avenue I might suggest if you're worried about writing a novel-length work and not seeing any return on months of your time is to write a couple of short stories.  This is not necessarily any easier, but it won't take as long, and it is one way to get a concrete piece of your writing ability on the page so that you can begin to gage your own skills.  Once you've finished, you can not only ask yourself whether you enjoyed the process or were comfortable spending your time at this endeavor, but you can show your work around and get feedback on it.  

This can come in the form of reading what you wrote yourself, but as stated above, it can be tough, particularly early on, to gage one's own work.  Show it to some friends.  How does it strike them?  Or better still, submit the stories to a short story market or five.  There are certainly plenty out there these days, from prestigious, pro-paying magazines to semi-pro to token payment to markets that pay nothing at all, but exist as a labor of love for their publishers and editors.  If you want some feedback, submit to some of these.  It might be that all you'll get is a rejection letter at first, but even that is feedback of a sort.  

If you want something a little more concrete, there are also critique groups of all sorts online these days.  These are communities of writers of all levels that read each other's work and critique it.  There are pros and cons with these groups of course, but for some writers, they are an avenue for improving their work.  

Best of luck with your writing

Chris


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## Gareth K Pengelly (Aug 25, 2012)

It's unpredictable. There's so many variables.

I started off writing an epic fantasy series that I poured my heart and soul into. Heard nothing but crickets over five years.

Then, at the very end of the last year, I had the idea of writing a comedy series of novellas (50ish-k words), blasting them out quickly (a book a month) and just having a laugh whilst writing them in the hopes that at least some people will enjoy them. Just managed my first four-figure month. On a book series I wrote for myself, thinking it would never sell.

We can research till we're blue in the face, but in my experience so far, there's a huge element of luck to self-publishing. I wouldn't try to plan anything, if I were you; I'd just write. If a series starts getting a readership, amazing, continue it till the series is done. If nobody seems to notice it, change tact and write something else.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Chris2pher said:


> One avenue I might suggest if you're worried about writing a novel-length work and not seeing any return on months of your time is to write a couple of short stories. This is not necessarily any easier, but it won't take as long, and it is one way to get a concrete piece of your writing ability on the page so that you can begin to gage your own skills. Once you've finished, you can not only ask yourself whether you enjoyed the process or were comfortable spending your time at this endeavor, but you can show your work around and get feedback on it.


I actually write a lot of poems and flash fiction. They don't that much time and I am happy to satisfy my urge that way. But I would LOVE to explore go longer.

Yes, I agree with the fact that being materialistic as an artist is deemed to be a sin per se. However, I am at a certain point in life where I do have to think about the monetary aspects as well. That's it. 



Chris2pher said:


> This can come in the form of reading what you wrote yourself, but as stated above, it can be tough, particularly early on, to gage one's own work. Show it to some friends. How does it strike them? Or better still, submit the stories to a short story market or five. There are certainly plenty out there these days, from prestigious, pro-paying magazines to semi-pro to token payment to markets that pay nothing at all, but exist as a labor of love for their publishers and editors. If you want some feedback, submit to some of these. It might be that all you'll get is a rejection letter at first, but even that is feedback of a sort.
> 
> If you want something a little more concrete, there are also critique groups of all sorts online these days. These are communities of writers of all levels that read each other's work and critique it. There are pros and cons with these groups of course, but for some writers, they are an avenue for improving their work.


Will definitely try them out. Got one of my flash fiction piece and poem published. But that's all. Going with short pieces seems to be the best way to go about it.



verysecretsquirrel said:


> I guess it depends somewhat on the 'niche' within erotica whether marketing would help a lot or a little or not at all. And it must be said that most book promotion services do not want erotica.
> 
> There is a hunger for what I write; my readers actively seek it out. So I have presumed (perhaps wrongly) that actively marketing it would not affect sales much.
> 
> 'Going wide' means using other stores as well as Amazon. I publish to Amazon, Smashwords, Kobo and Google Play. Smashwords also function as a distributor, sending my books to Apple, Barnes & Noble, and all sorts of other weird and wonderful places.


Got it. Makes sense that ad services do not want 'erotica', because s*x sells anyway, right?  But you do have a mail list if I am not wrong. How did you build it?



Usedtoposthere said:


> If you dn not like mushy, feely types, you are likely to have a rough time selling romance. I concur with others: write a genre that you understand inside out. Writing romance, despite what many think, is not easy, and it is enormously competitive.
> 
> Shorts mainly work in erotica.


Yes, right. Correct me if I am wrong but I read that the romance genre is thronged with ever-hungry readers and that is one of the few genres where even a half-decent book has the chance to see thousands in sales.

Yes, writing eroticas need a different type of temperament but I am definitely interested in writing them.



Gareth K Pengelly said:


> It's unpredictable. There's so many variables.
> 
> I started off writing an epic fantasy series that I poured my heart and soul into. Heard nothing but crickets over five years.
> 
> ...


Haha...loved reading your comment. That sounds like a happy story ending. Are you still writing comedies?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

> Yes, right. Correct me if I am wrong but I read that the romance genre is thronged with ever-hungry readers and that is one of the few genres where even a half-decent book has the chance to see thousands in sales.


ROFL!!! This is a common misconception. I would wager there are more failed authors in romance than any other genre. My one romance has sold $143 in three years.


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## Soren (Oct 20, 2016)

brkingsolver said:


> ROFL!!! This is a common misconception. I would wager there are more failed authors in romance than any other genre. My one romance has sold $143 in three years.


Romance is rough. OP, it's the nature of the "busy" genres. If you do well, then there's a voracious audience waiting to consume your books. If you don't, then it's far easier to drown and disappear. Standing out is important, through a combination of a good cover, a hooky blurb, a great book, and preferably a healthy marketing budget, too. Yet even then, as others have mentioned, success isn't guaranteed.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

You're a copywriter? Then you'd already understand some key things about writing and business - I'll relate those things to the indie book world:

- Your book blurb is copy. Your book title is copy. Your book cover is an ad.

- Every paragraph and scene in your book can be compared to copy. Its job is to make people experience emotions and want to keep reading. People read fiction because they want to feel.

- It's easier to sell to a sizable but underserved market than an oversaturated one. You can look for sub-genres that are underserved (these are hard to find and your book still has to be very good to make an impact). Because so many genres and sub-genres are saturated, good books are struggling. It isn't true that a good book will necessarily make money. As you've seen in this thread, the usual earnings of indie authors are very, very low.

- Your finished book is a product. Indies increasingly need to know how to market a book, because there are just so many books being published every single month. Personally, I can't pretend to know how to effectively market a book. I suck at it and know that I need to get better at it.

- Your voice and the way you write a story are what sells it. If your voice is wrong, getting all the tropes right won't help. The right voice usually comes from having a passion for a certain genre (combined with talent, hard work, staying power and an x-factor). If you don't like to read the genre you're writing, it's going to be very difficult to write a book that others want to read.

*Last thing - here's how much you can make per book per month:*



Spoiler



Come back in 6 months and let us all know


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

The best thing to write is the thing you love, but then meet the readers where they are. Read the books that are doing well. Urban fantasy, for example, might appeal to someone who loves lots of action, some humor, fantasy world building and developing a group of characters over multiple books, but you can't end it there, you have to make sure you're hitting the points UF readers love. Every single genre is like that. You can't just say "I'm going to write romance", there are like COUNTLESS sub-niches of romances and they're often very different. I started really making money when I started a pen name that was laser focused on a niche that suits me as a writer, but also gives readers a lot of the things they want. I had a good dose of luck there, but have pretty much made 5-9k net profit since then. But I've been a professional novelist for 10 years in both trad and indie, and it took me that long to figure it out to the point where I feel KIND OF safe like I actually have a fan base.


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## SpawnOfStark (Jul 25, 2018)

Fellow ghostwriter over here!

I started writing fiction 4 months ago after getting disillusioned with the amount of work my day job required for very little return.  I've been ghostwriting all kinds of work (mostly non-fiction) for 8 years and decided I couldn't carry on with it long-term, so I wanted to see if I could create an alternative income.  Even if it doesn't enable me to quit the day job, a passive income that leads to less hours ghostwriting will be a plus for me.

I started out in erotica.  Reason being - most authors in that genre aren't able to market in the traditional ways so I would purely need to focus on my stories, my covers, and my blurbs, and learn the ins and outs of self publishing.  I did that for a couple of months and wrote over 30 short stories.  Over half of them flopped, but with every new story I wrote, I began to understand what was working and what wasn't working and put that into practice.  And better yet, I was doing this with 5k shorts as opposed to long novels.

At the end of May I created a new pen name and broached out into a new genre.  Instead of writing shorts, I began to write novellas.  With the experience I'd gained from writing erotic shorts under my belt, I was a step ahead of those who were new to the genre, although still far behind those who had been publishing in it for years.  That said, my first novella went on to sell over 125 copies in the first month.  Because it did well (by my standards), I decided to make it into a serial - and added four more novellas, which again continued to sell.  Now they're all done, I'm getting ready to turn the books into a novel and publish.

Now, I'm working on a new novel in the same niche as above.  Whether it will do well or not, I don't really know, but I do know it will do better than it would had I not took the time to learn more about the industry.  I'm also a huge reader in the niche where I write, so I understand what readers in this genre want, and how to write to market.  I don't think I'll be quitting the day job any time soon, but I do hope that by Christmas, this hard work will have been worth it.  Even if I can cut my day job hours down, I will be happy.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

schttrj said:


> Yes, I agree with the fact that being materialistic as an artist is deemed to be a sin per se.
> 
> Yes, right. Correct me if I am wrong but I read that the romance genre is thronged with ever-hungry readers and that is one of the few genres where even a half-decent book has the chance to see thousands in sales.


I will correct you. You could not be more wrong. There are thousands of failed romance novelists around to tell you so.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money. Writing fiction is just an uncertain path to it. Your best shot, if you do want to do something with as long odds of success as this, is to write a book you are burning to write, in the genre you love best, as long as it is commercially viable. Writing something you do not like and do not understand is a one-way ticket to Failuretown.

I have succeeded at romance in large part because I love it and I write the books for myself. True of most successful writers in any genre, from what I know.


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## L_Loryn (Mar 1, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> I have succeeded at romance in large part because I love it and I write the books for myself. True of most successful writers in any genre, from what I know.


This.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I wouldn't even worry about what you make on the first book. If you really want to build a career, you'll need to write lots of books and that first book may turn into your loss leader. With my first book it was all about getting it out there and finding an audience. I priced it at .99 and promoted it quite a bit and worked on getting book two out as soon as possible and then book three. To earn a decent income with books, most need to publish regularly. Once you get going each release will usually have it's best month in it's first month and will then drift down.  As an example, I have one book that earned about $5k in month one, a year later, in July, it has earned about $250.


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## LL2018 (Jun 9, 2018)

Deleted.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

verysecretsquirrel said:


> I built my mailing list by offering a free story download in return for subscribing. There is a link shouting "FREE BOOK!" to the mailing list signup page in the front and back matter of every one of my books. Of course, some people just subscribe, grab their story, then unsubscribe; but so it goes. I have over 300 subs now and decent open and click rates.
> 
> The 'easy money in erotica' crowd moved on to romance a while back. That might explain where that myth comes from.


Right, thanks for the advice. Erotica, while tricky to write in, seems to be the best genre to start in.



Usedtoposthere said:


> I will correct you. You could not be more wrong. There are thousands of failed romance novelists around to tell you so.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money. Writing fiction is just an uncertain path to it. Your best shot, if you do want to do something with as long odds of success as this, is to write a book you are burning to write, in the genre you love best, as long as it is commercially viable. Writing something you do not like and do not understand is a one-way ticket to Failuretown.
> 
> I have succeeded at romance in large part because I love it and I write the books for myself. True of most successful writers in any genre, from what I know.


Yes, I agree with that. That's a taken. Thanks.



Annie B said:


> What kind of books do you love to read? What books do you wish there were more of for you to read? Write those.
> 
> And yes, editing will probably be your biggest cost if your posts are anything to go by, because it seems as though English is not your native language? So hiring someone familiar with editing non-native English grammar mistakes is key.


Yes, I am a non-native English speaker. By the way, just curious, how did you know? Grammatical mistakes or just the word order or maybe, the word selection that I use?



JaclynDolamore said:


> The best thing to write is the thing you love, but then meet the readers where they are. Read the books that are doing well. Urban fantasy, for example, might appeal to someone who loves lots of action, some humor, fantasy world building and developing a group of characters over multiple books, but you can't end it there, you have to make sure you're hitting the points UF readers love. Every single genre is like that. You can't just say "I'm going to write romance", there are like COUNTLESS sub-niches of romances and they're often very different. I started really making money when I started a pen name that was laser focused on a niche that suits me as a writer, but also gives readers a lot of the things they want. I had a good dose of luck there, but have pretty much made 5-9k net profit since then. But I've been a professional novelist for 10 years in both trad and indie, and it took me that long to figure it out to the point where I feel KIND OF safe like I actually have a fan base.


Right. Sounds good for you. Which genre do you write in? What concerns me is that a good book does not win these days. Getting it in front of enough eyeballs plays a crucial role to it, and then you never know whether it will turn out to be a zero or a hero.



SpawnOfStark said:


> Fellow ghostwriter over here!
> 
> I started writing fiction 4 months ago after getting disillusioned with the amount of work my day job required for very little return. I've been ghostwriting all kinds of work (mostly non-fiction) for 8 years and decided I couldn't carry on with it long-term, so I wanted to see if I could create an alternative income. Even if it doesn't enable me to quit the day job, a passive income that leads to less hours ghostwriting will be a plus for me.
> 
> ...


Some honest comment over here!

I totally relate to your situation. I work as a copywriter and I write for clients selling their products and services. I would love to write something "for myself" and enjoy the process all along but also with the remote certainty that everything falls into place, I will start making enough passive income from it over time (perhaps?).

And again and again, I am getting told that shorts work in erotica. Thanks for chipping in.


A.A said:


> You're a copywriter? Then you'd already understand some key things about writing and business - I'll relate those things to the indie book world:
> 
> - Your book blurb is copy. Your book title is copy. Your book cover is an ad.
> 
> ...


One marketer to another, I liked it.

But the last spoiler? I hated it. Hehe...it was funny.



LeanneLeeds said:


> I'm in my third year, and I'm _just_ getting started. Again. For the third time.
> 
> I think it was August of 2016 when I made the decision I wanted to try to write books for a living. In May of that same year I was laid off from a job and career I had been doing for over twenty years. I was burned out, I presided over layoffs that were excruciatingly painful, and I didn't want to work for anybody else. In my mid-forties faced with a "what do I do with the rest of my life" moment, I looked back at my long-shelved English major dreams and decided to give it a go.
> 
> ...


I loved your reply, frankly.

Yes, throughout this thread, it's the very point that I was trying to make. Write what you like but still have an eye on the monetary prospects. You said it better.

I would probably give it a try and see how it turns out. I am almost sure, the first one will flop but hey, you got to start somewhere, right?


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

schttrj said:


> Yes, right. Correct me if I am wrong but I read that the romance genre is thronged with ever-hungry readers and that is one of the few genres where even a half-decent book has the chance to see thousands in sales.


Being able to write a half-decent book in Romance, or in any other genre, is a rare talent.

One challenge that many people seem to face is not really knowing what good _is_, in context of the commercially oriented perspective that focuses on the question: "What do readers like to read?"

When someone reads a book that is genuinely popular and declares, "Well, _this_ isn't very good," then he or she is almost always wrong. Not wrong in the sense of being mistaken about whether said book meets some personal or external standard for 'literary quality,' but wrong in the sense of failing to actually understand what it is about the book that makes it appealing to readers.

I'm in this for the money. Total sellout, no question about it. My primary concern is giving readers what they want. Which requires understanding what readers want - what makes a book _good_ from a reader's perspective. If you don't understand this (or worse, if you're not even thinking about it in a rigorous way).. well, you can guess and maybe get lucky a time or two, but you're not likely to see any consistent success.

Figuring out what readers want is not easy. Part of it is reading a lot of popular books, approaching them with the assumption that they are 'good' (in the relevant sense), and trying to work out what they have in common. And not just within a single genre either; I believe that most of what makes a book good are features that transcend genre. Producing a book that (actually) gives readers what they want.. that's not particularly easy, either. If it seems easy, that's probably a sign of getting it wrong.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Boba1823 but if you genuinely love and are familiar with the genre that you write in as a reader then it is not as hard to figure out.  True not everyone in your genre will love what you love but if you are already immersed in the genre and write books that you would like to read as a fan of the genre then you have a good chance that your book will resonate with other readers in the genre too.  If you are an outsider who does not particularly care for the genre and you are trying to figure out what readers want that will be a lot harder.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> If you dn not like mushy, feely types, you are likely to have a rough time selling romance. I concur with others: write a genre that you understand inside out. Writing romance, despite what many think, is not easy, and it is enormously competitive.
> 
> Shorts mainly work in erotica.


Yeah, despite the excess of repackaged erotica in NA, NA novels and erotica shorts have very little to do with each other. OP, I think you need to do more research.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

JWright said:


> Boba1823 but if you genuinely love and are familiar with the genre that you write in as a reader then it is not as hard to figure out.


I don't think that's quite true, or at least, it misses the bigger picture. I mean, there are certain elements, tropes, etc., that people _like_ (and some even love) that show up in various genres. Like.. space opera folks like big old spaceships. (I think.) But that doesn't mean that it's as simple as throwing a big old spaceship into a story, and also tossing in x, y, and z other elements that are usually found in that genre, and then _presto!_ you have book that people will like and that will do well.

I'm thinking, I suppose, of somewhat broader characteristics of novels - what it is that makes a _story_ attractive and compelling and so forth. Some people seem to have a natural knack for understanding how to develop a compelling story, or at least this is something they have developed (and I think that _broad_ reading of successful works is the best approach to developing this sense).

I have no idea what kind of background the OP has in that regard. But certainly there are some people who come into writing without having developed good storytelling instincts, who think that one can succeed just by doing a paint-by-numbers sort of approach. Like maybe they read _50 Shades of Grey_ (or just watched the movie) and think, "Lol that's crummy, these people will read just about anything. Why, I could whip up a book that has some girl and a billionaire, and they argue a little and then do some kinky kinky while falling in love, and then ka-_ching_!" But usually the end result is something that appears, superficially, to be like the original, but actually has none of the oomph that was in fact responsible for the original's success. The window dressing is the same, but the store is empty inside, so to speak.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Your phrasing tends to give you away as a non-native speaker. Things like ‘that’s a taken’, when it should be that’s a given.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Knowing a few tropes from a genre and throwing them into a book isn't the same thing as having a deep knowledge and love of it and drawing on that to write a book that readers of your genre will love.

However, I do agree that storytelling does go beyond that. Just because you are very familiar with a genre and like to write doesn't mean you will have the storytelling down to be able to write a compelling story that will appeal to readers. So I agree with that.



boba1823 said:


> I don't think that's quite true, or at least, it misses the bigger picture. I mean, there are certain elements, tropes, etc., that people _like_ (and some even love) that show up in various genres. Like.. space opera folks like big old spaceships. (I think.) But that doesn't mean that it's as simple as throwing a big old spaceship into a story, and also tossing in x, y, and z other elements that are usually found in that genre, and then _presto!_ you have book that people will like and that will do well.
> 
> I'm thinking, I suppose, of somewhat broader characteristics of novels - what it is that makes a _story_ attractive and compelling and so forth. Some people seem to have a natural knack for understanding how to develop a compelling story, or at least this is something they have developed (and I think that _broad_ reading of successful works is the best approach to developing this sense).
> 
> I have no idea what kind of background the OP has in that regard. But certainly there are some people who come into writing without having developed good storytelling instincts, who think that one can succeed just by doing a paint-by-numbers sort of approach. Like maybe they read _50 Shades of Grey_ (or just watched the movie) and think, "Lol that's crummy, these people will read just about anything. Why, I could whip up a book that has some girl and a billionaire, and they argue a little and then do some kinky kinky while falling in love, and then ka-_ching_!" But usually the end result is something that appears, superficially, to be like the original, but actually has none of the oomph that was in fact responsible for the original's success. The window dressing is the same, but the store is empty inside, so to speak.


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## John Hunter (May 11, 2018)

idontknowyet said:


> I've heard more than 90% of books written don't make the cost of a latte back in a year sooo. Yeah.
> 
> There have been several here that have posted great first book returns, but most are the opposite. It's always said that writing is a marathon not a sprint.


This reeks of truth.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

boba1823 said:


> Being able to write a half-decent book in Romance, or in any other genre, is a rare talent.
> 
> One challenge that many people seem to face is not really knowing what good _is_, in context of the commercially oriented perspective that focuses on the question: "What do readers like to read?"
> 
> ...


Well, as per the answers on this thread, I guess writing a decent book is one piece of the puzzle. A good book is always what your readers want to read, of course. Isn't it? Tell me a bit of your personal experience.



Annie B said:


> I knew because your word choice, word order, punctuation, and grammatical mistakes all pointed to a non-native English speaker. Make sure you get a very good editor to go over your work, someone who is used to fixing those kinds of errors. It'll probably cost a bit more, but it will likely pay off in the end in terms of not getting a lot of negative reviews about basic English craft level stuff.


Right, thanks. Yes, would have to. How much do you think it would cost?


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Seventeen!


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I submit that a good book is one that defies its own targeting, be it audience, era, or language. [Essentially, a good book is one that proved its a good book. Circular definition for the win!]


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Forty-two.


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## Kat Faitour (Jun 3, 2016)

SevenDays said:


> Forty-two.


Damn, you beat me to it.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

KFaitour said:


> Damn, you beat me to it.


I was surprised that no one else beat me to it!


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## Yuli Ban (Oct 11, 2015)

It depends on a lot of things. So many variables, in fact, that it's almost pointless to answer without getting an idea of your immediate and long-term plans.

Are you going to write one 50k paranormal shifter erotic romance, lightly edit it for whatever spelling errors you see, whip up a cover in GIMP in five minutes, stuff it with some extra shorts, and call it a day? You'd be lucky to earn $100 within a year. When it comes to Amazon's KU feature, I don't want to say you'll definitely fail to make money. Maybe I've just been lucky, but in my experience, even my most half-assed stuff during my lowest periods always made at least a couple dollars in any given week. 

Are you going to write your 50k-word novel and then spend $100 a day on Facebook ads? Success is all but guaranteed. The problem is, you'll earn $1,000 by spending $3,000. That's no way to get ahead.

If you are in this solely to make money, then you needn't worry about all those who say you are damned to the poorhouse— you can make money. Lots of it, even. That said, never expect it to come easy. The only way to make this a Get Rich Quick scheme is to engage in unethical business practices that have a nasty tendency to blow up in your face down the line. 
To do it the right way, you have to write. It doesn't matter if you don't think the book will sell— just write it. Then publish it. It probably won't sell. That's fine.
Move on. Write the next book. Collect subscribers for a newsletter. Find out what you did wrong with the first book and make sure to correct the mistakes to the best of your ability. Read excessively. Copy/transcribe other books as you read them if needbe just to get a feel for their style. Then publish your second book. Move on. 
You do need to put some money into advertising if you want to be seen early on, but once you have enough followers, that should pay for itself. And you will only get followers if your work is actually good and later works show improvement.

It is "easy" to make $100 a day in some niches and subgenres if you can withstand the workload of writing a novel a month and keeping subscribers. Problem is, when you're writing a novel a month, it doesn't feel easy. It feels like a job.

Which it should. There aren't many people out there who can spend an hour a day writing lackadaisically and can collect 5-figure checks at the end of the month. If you treat it like a job, there's a better chance it'll pay you like a job.

But this isn't a salaried job. Sometimes, your income can be seasonal and based on trends. What was a hot goldmine two years ago might be dead today.


TLDR: Write, write, write. Publish, publish, publish. Bring in subscribers to a newsletter. Treat it like an actual job.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Yuli Ban said:


> It depends on a lot of things. So many variables, in fact, that it's almost pointless to answer without getting an idea of your immediate and long-term plans.
> 
> Are you going to write one 50k paranormal shifter erotic romance, lightly edit it for whatever spelling errors you see, whip up a cover in GIMP in five minutes, stuff it with some extra shorts, and call it a day? You'd be lucky to earn $100 within a year. When it comes to Amazon's KU feature, I don't want to say you'll definitely fail to make money. Maybe I've just been lucky, but in my experience, even my most half-assed stuff during my lowest periods always made at least a couple dollars in any given week.
> 
> ...


Right, I am curious about one thing. Did you not do advertising? Not even AMS? Is marketing not super important (or the deal breaker) these days? Which genre or niche you write in?



LilyBLily said:


> I am once again amazed at the generosity of people here. Kudos to all.
> 
> My suggestion, and it's a serious one, is to become a ghostwriter. I wouldn't urge this on a writer who wants to write something meaningful or of substance. In your case, since your main question is about time invested to produce money, I think it would be helpful to try to sell your writing to just one person at a time. Upwork is I believe where many people find clients these days. See how you do with that; I'm sure someone is hiring erotica writers or whatever. If you can successfully ghostwrite, you'll be positioned to know what to do when it comes to writing your own books for money. The beauty of doing it this way is that you'll get paid to learn on the job. If you flop horribly that experience will give you some useful information, too--and with little outlay of your time and possibly no outlay of your money.
> Good luck.


Again, by a fruitful investment of my time, I meant whether that investment of my time would bring back sufficient returns. What it means is, if I work hard at it, can I make sufficient income on an "average". I don't want to think of myself as the next Amanda Hocking. But over time, given the books "meet the market", can I expect to earn a decent living from it?

Ghostwriting, you say? What do you think stands a higher chance of getting sold to even one customer - the book that is being sent to one person or the book that is being advertised to a million people? I rest my case.

_Edited quoted post and response to it. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

[quote author=schttrj]

Ghostwriting, you say? What do you think stands a higher chance of getting sold to even one customer - the book that is being sent to one person or the book that is being advertised to a million people? I rest my case.
[/quote]

I really don't think LilyBLily intended to be anything but helpful. There are ghostwriters out there who are making money. You can agree to a price before you write a book for someone, so you'll know exactly what the return on your effort will be. The person who buys the manuscript usually then publishes and advertises the work, so you will still have customers. Often the buyers are great marketers who aren't that interested in writing.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you, but it's an option to get paid for your writing.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Wow. You completely misread a helpful post and attacked somebody who was trying to help, and with vitriolic language. Also, you were wrong. You have been given a great deal of advice for somebody who comes onto a forum as a total unknown and asks an incredibly basic question People have given you the benefit of the doubt, and this is how you respond? I think the helpful tap just dried up. 

My advice would be to try writing and see, since you seem pretty convinced for some reason that you will succeed, I have my own doubts about how it will go, since you do not seem to know as much as you think you do, but nobody can tell you with any certainty. You are asking questions to which there are no good answers. Do your research, try for yourself, and see. Or get a job. Your choice. Your life.


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## G.L. Snodgrass (Aug 12, 2014)

OP. I don't understand you objective. If you were a musician, you would not expect to sell out a large hall for your first gig. If you were a painter, you would not expect to sell your first painting for thousands of dollars. 

If your objective is to make a living off your writing right from the start. Get a day job. it is easier and so less painful. 

For me it took 4 novels and 5 years before I found the right combination that made me money. After that it was writing a lot and fast releases that kept my writing career alive. But, if I had started out expecting to make it from the very start. I would have quit after the first few failures.

Write books a lot of people want to read. Write them in such a way that at the end, they want to read your other books. Write often enough that they don't forget you.  Simple really, but hard to do correctly. 

As for how much books make per month. Mine range from $5.00 to $10,000. So, as always, the answer is, "IT DEPENDS"


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> Wow. You completely misread a helpful post and attacked somebody who was trying to help, and with vitriolic language. Also, you were wrong. You have been given a great deal of advice for somebody who comes onto a forum as a total unknown and asks an incredibly basic question People have given you the benefit of the doubt, and this is how you respond? I think the helpful tap just dried up.
> 
> My advice would be to try writing and see, since you seem pretty convinced for some reason that you will succeed, I have my own doubts about how it will go, since you do not seem to know as much as you think you do, but nobody can tell you with any certainty. You are asking questions to which there are no good answers. Do your research, try for yourself, and see. Or get a job. Your choice. Your life.


 I am definitely grateful to all the posters, including you, in this thread (really great advice, seriously!)

If anyone's comment was helpful and I failed to see it, I am wrong and I apologize.

And regarding you pointing out my being pretty convinced that I can succeed, I guess I have mentioned multiple times that I know everything still depends on the quality of my work and its marketing, and that I do not claim to be the next Stephen King. If you go through the thread, you will see that I haven't even asked how much my first book would make. In fact, it's not the name of the thread even. It's the average earning from a book that I was asking for, from established authors who have done it. Just someone who is trying to shift to this profession full-time and trying to figure out whether he can eke out a living out of it.



oakwood said:


> I employ a bunch of ghostwriters and have been for many years. I also write my own stuff. The writers I use are guaranteed an income for the book they produce. You/me/everyone else... are guranateed *ZERO* monies when we publish, and of likewise zero while we write. A decent ghost may earn anyting between a couple hundred to several thousand USD for a single written book done in 2 months. How many buyers do you need for a published book before you see a similar couple thousand in your bank over the same amount of time? (hint: only a tiny fraction of all books published ever sell that good)
> 
> A ghost never needs to spend time on marketing, creating plots, checking competition, handling the publishing biz... all of which can swallow a whole lot of time... time less spent on creating another book.
> 
> ...


I would take my words back on ghostwriting. On a second thought, I do believe that it is profitable indeed. How else would I make even a $100 from a piece? It's highly unlikely that I can make it with my first few projects. Thanks for pointing that out. 

_Edited quoted posts and responses to them.. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

G.L. Snodgrass said:


> OP. I don't understand you objective. If you were a musician, you would not expect to sell out a large hall for your first gig. If you were a painter, you would not expect to sell your first painting for thousands of dollars.
> 
> If your objective is to make a living off your writing right from the start. Get a day job. it is easier and so less painful.
> 
> ...


No, I am not looking to make millions of my first book. 

Yes, I am trying to figure out if writing is really hard to eke a decent living or not. Like advice from the established writers to beginners in the field. That's it. It would be hard to say that I have the luxury to just daydream and write, without promising myself daily bread to survive.

I think, your advice to churn out more and more books as humanly possible makes sense. If I may ask, how do you market your books? Which genre you write in?


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Annie B said:


> I wouldn't recommend ghostwriting, personally. Most people who pay well for ghostwriting are looking for native English speakers with some level of experience and skill in writing fiction in the chosen genre already. The kind of ghostwriting job that someone who is a non-native speaker with no experience can get will be very low pay and without experience, the OP won't know how long it takes them to write a book, so hitting someone else's deadlines is probably going to just cause heartbreak for all involved.


Actually, you make a good point. Since I freelance a bit, I know how hard it can be to get a project as a non-native speaker. That's actually one of the initial criteria involved in such projects.



Annie B said:


> Also, if you have the time and money to invest, consider taking some basic writing courses. I know a bunch of non-native English speakers who write very well in English, but they all went through courses in college or elsewhere and worked very hard to get to fluent in a way that works for fiction.


Do you know of any such courses? Is Writers Digest good enough?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> If you're worried of spending time working on a novel that might not earn you your money back, then you might want to look elsewhere to make money.


Yeah.^^^

This isn't like people think. Very hard to make any money, no guarantees, no passive income. Being a writer -- and especially adding on the publishing work -- takes effort, time and some amount of money. You have to know your craft, know your genre, and know how to market. This isn't some turnkey get rich quick business idea.

Personally, I'd pick a good subgenre in either Romance or Thriller, and forget erotica. Three years ago, you could make a killing writing good erotic shorts in KU, but now? Much, much harder. Most erotica authors I know switched to writing steamy romance novels. Or SF. Or something, but not erotica.

Others have given you numbers, so I'll let you contemplate that. If you still want to write and publish, then good luck. Keep writing, keep learning, keep you eyes open.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

Annie B said:


> worry about getting GOOD at the job you want. Because this is a job, and the more skilled you are, the better your chances of getting paid will be.


This.

It took me thirty years to become an overnight success.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Annie B said:


> If you want basic writing classes that will teach you English grammar etc, https://www.class-central.com/report/writing-free-online-courses/ has some courses listed that you can do online for free.
> 
> For fiction in particular: http://www.odysseyworkshop.org/online.html or https://litreactor.com/classes/upcoming or https://www.writingclasses.com/classes/location-type/online are all good options taught by knowledgeable professionals.


Thanks for the links, Annie.



she-la-ti-da said:


> Personally, I'd pick a good subgenre in either Romance or Thriller, and forget erotica. Three years ago, you could make a killing writing good erotic shorts in KU, but now? Much, much harder. Most erotica authors I know switched to writing steamy romance novels. Or SF. Or something, but not erotica.


You confused me. I read in several threads that erotica shorts still work. No, I am not saying that they make millions (except for Chuck Tingle, perhaps). Yes, I know KU2 might have affected it but how about direct sales?


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## SpawnOfStark (Jul 25, 2018)

I'm pretty sure Chuck Tingle doesn't make millions.

If you want to be a success in erotica, you need to find an underserved niche that's calling out for shorts.  You need to be able to push these out on a regular basis, which starts to feel like a churn really fast.  Then again, the writing's the easy part - finding a niche is going to be what you'll struggle with.  Erotica is a good niche in which to learn how to self publish, but it's not an easy income and hasn't been for years.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think what has people beating their heads against the wall is that THERE IS NO AVERAGE. 

Or there are, but the mean and median are far away from each other. The median is very low, because most published authors make almost nothing. The mean is much higher, because the few authors at the top make a lot. 

I gave you the Author Earnings stats back on page 1, I think. That's how hard it is. Maybe 3% make $10,000 a year. More like .1% make seven figures. Probably 90% make no meaningful money. 

Which means--nothing. Because there is no "average writer." There are only a bunch of individual writers with differing levels of writing skill, including what to write about--able to choose a marketable genre, able to come up with a marketable hook on which to hang their story. And then the skill to tell that story in a way that has readers turning the pages and one-clicking on the next book.

The only way to find out which writer you are is to try doing some actual WRITING. You will never find out by asking people. But I second what Annie said. Courses are probably a good idea.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

SpawnOfStark said:


> I'm pretty sure Chuck Tingle doesn't make millions.
> 
> If you want to be a success in erotica, you need to find an underserved niche that's calling out for shorts. You need to be able to push these out on a regular basis, which starts to feel like a churn really fast. Then again, the writing's the easy part - finding a niche is going to be what you'll struggle with. Erotica is a good niche in which to learn how to self publish, but it's not an easy income and hasn't been for years.


Also, writing sex well is difficult. And I believe a large percentage of erotica is written for women, so you have to write it in a way that a woman would consider good.


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## m123xyz (Oct 16, 2015)

wow so much great feedback. I hope you figure out what you want to do. 

my random comment.. I think we are all "lucky" that we can maybe possibly sort of maybe make a decent living writing. I think the odds are better than being an actor a musician. People do actually make money if they write and market. That said the odds are probably about equal to making cash on another online platform.  blog/podcast/youtube/twitch/snap/flap/flip/whatever. I think most of those people would answer the questions similarly. "don't expect to make a fortune on podcasts but try xyz." 
PS. I wish I loved video games enough to have people pay to watch me play them! 

good luck out here!


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

schttrj said:


> While I am definitely grateful to all the posters, including you, in this thread (really great advice, seriously!),
> 
> If anyone's comment was helpful and I failed to see it, I am wrong and I apologize.


Okay, so first of all, you came in here and asked people you don't know to divulge personal information to you. You don't have a right to that information. If they want to share it with you that's totally up to them. But it is not your right to know it. And a lot of people consider it rude to ask someone how much money they make.

Also, it may be easier for a person to be guided through the process, but that means someone has to take the time to do the guiding. But we're all busy people who are working on our own businesses, and you need to show you're serious and give people a chance to get to know you before you can expect them to invest too much of their time on you.

Second, there is a wealth of information on this board that is just there for the reading in previous threads. And there have been other threads devoted to this very topic, so the very existence of this thread suggests that you did not do much in the way of research. (I'm not saying you did or didn't, just that it appears as if you didn't.)

And third, there are many writers on this board who have been writing stories and working on their trade for many years. They've come to writing because they love stories and they can't not write. So when someone new comes in who hasn't even narrowed down the genre they want to write in - and the people who've been here a while have likely seen this a fair bit - it smacks of someone who just decided they want to write because they think it will be an easy way to make money, rather than because they have a real passion for storytelling. And that can be offensive to people who take their storytelling seriously. (Again, not saying that's true, but it appears that way, and appearances count for a lot.)

I hope that helps to explain Lily's comment a little better.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> This. The best erotica is full of emotional connection (even if just for a night) and emotional connection to what is happening. It's not slot A into tab B. As with any genre, if you haven't read a lot of erotica and understand what you like and what your target audience likes, you'll make 0.


Even in romance, I hear so many authors say how difficult it has become to write sex scenes after 20 or 30 or 40 books. I love writing them, 27 books in, but that's because I don't let my folks get to it until halfway through the book, when they're both dying for it. The intensity of the connection AND the physical relief are what works. Even though I love them, they're not easy. I edit and tinker with them as much as action scenes, because that is basically what they are. What you need to convey is what the person is feeling in the moment--both physical and mental, in both cases.

I would not be good at erotica, because you have to get to that point right at the beginning. It would take me too long to think up a backstory that has put them into this spot, and erotica is all about writing fast.

That is why it is lucky there are so many different genres for so many different kinds of writers. I stink at thinking up plots, myself. I do write suspense, and I'm pretty good at it, but it sure takes a while for the whole thing to unravel itself in my brain. I also don't have much imagination. I'd be hopeless at sci-fi or fantasy. I'm good at writing individual, realistic people, though, and diving pretty deep. We all have our strengths. The trick is to find out where those will be best rewarded--where the writing comes easily, and so do the sales.

ETA: Yep on writing it so it appeals to women. I think that's pretty darn tricky if you are not one.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

LilyBLily said:


> I am once again amazed at the generosity of people here. Kudos to all.
> 
> My suggestion, and it's a serious one, is to become a ghostwriter. I wouldn't urge this on a writer who wants to write something meaningful or of substance. In your case, since your main question is about time invested to produce money, I think it would be helpful to try to sell your writing to just one person at a time. Upwork is I believe where many people find clients these days. See how you do with that; I'm sure someone is hiring erotica writers or whatever. If you can successfully ghostwrite, you'll be positioned to know what to do when it comes to writing your own books for money. The beauty of doing it this way is that you'll get paid to learn on the job. If you flop horribly that experience will give you some useful information, too--and with little outlay of your time and possibly no outlay of your money.
> 
> Good luck.


I agree.

There's nothing wrong with starting a pen name with the goal of making a living. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about your work. The reality of life is there are only so many hours in a week. If you have a full time job, you have a lot less time to write. Unless you have rich parents or a spouse who supports you full time, if you want to spend most of your time writing, you have to make money from this gig. I started my pen name intending to make a living, made soooo many mistakes, eventually figured it out. It took a lot of trial and error, a lot of learning and humility, and a non-trivial amount of money (I probably spent about 3-5k before I started to see profit) and time (at least a year of writing prose before I saw any return and many years of screenwriting/training before that (I have a BFA in film & TV with an emphasis on screen/TV writing (yes, I'm nesting my parentheticals))).

BUT, like I said, it takes most people awhile to see a return. Not because it's impossible to make money right away--that does happen--but because very few of us come in to publishing with an understanding of what it takes to be successful. You can read all the books and forum posts, but nothing really teaches you like doing it (and failing).

If you have pretty good prose skills, ghostwriting is a great way to master a genre while making guaranteed money. It's hard work and it doesn't pay nearly as well as a hit (few things do). But it's a lot more stable than a fledgling publishing business.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

Let's go to math to figure out  the average earning per book per month!

According to Authorearnings.com, the final three quarters of 2017 resulted in $1,339,744,763.23 in ebook sales. Breaking that down simply to a single month, from around 9, months, brings us to $148,860,529.25 per month. With the wide assumption that Amazon accounts for 70% of ebook sales, and extrapolating that to revenue, we come up with $104,202,370.48 for ebook sales for Amazon per month on average for 2017.

There are an estimated 3,400,000 ebooks on Amazon. Thus, the average sales of the ebooks would be $30.65. Giving a broad assumption that the average ebook in the Kindle store pays a 70% royalty, we can calculate that an author earns, on average, $21.46 per month per book.

So the answer to the inquiry of "I am curious about the average earning you are likely to receive from a decent book" would be $21.46 per month.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

If you are going to try writing and publishing your own work on places like Amazon don't expect to make money for a while.

Expect to be in it for the long haul. If you are good at writing, and can come up with decent stories, and find an audience, yeah -- you can make some side money. If you become really good at the game, i.e. write very well, have enough money to promote your work, and are persistent, you probably can make decent side money or even a lot better, as some here on KBoards can attest.

RE: Erotica: every now and then I read a comment here by some newbie or someone whose other genre's eBook sales are failing and they seem to have this attitude of "oh cr*p, sales are off -- better make up a pen name and churn out some erotica!" as if that is some sort of magic, cheap way to quick sales and success.

A quick perusal of the genre on the Zon alone will inform you that there is a lot of competition, and sometimes the bigger players don't necessarily make tons, and if they do, they've been in the game for several years and are very good writers.

Just because books are based on sex stories, doesn't mean that's all there is to them. Sure, there are some erotica books out there that are nothing but the typographic equivalent of endless sex tape loops, and a few of them sell OK, but the bigger sellers more often than not put a lot more into the writing than just sex.

To the OP: I'm not implying you have the attitude I mentioned here. I was just making a point. If you want to write, write something you _really want to write._ Try writing a story or book in a genre that you actually read, and a genre in which you can get emotionally connected to in some way. Otherwise, if you're just writing in some genre expecting to make money, your characters may come across as very wooden, and a lot of readers want to _connect with a character_ -- even in an erotica story.

Good luck. I would go head and try your hand, test the waters. If you really want to write and publish, forget about how much money you'll make -- just get a book or two out there and learn by doing. Just do it.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с условиями T.O.S.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

m123xyz said:


> my random comment.. I think we are all "lucky" that we can maybe possibly sort of maybe make a decent living writing. I think the odds are better than being an actor a musician.


Yes, you are right. Other things being equal, it really does depend on luck as it seems from the replies of this thread. And who would want to play video games for money? 



wilsonharp said:


> Let's go to math to figure out the average earning per book per month!
> 
> According to Authorearnings.com, the final three quarters of 2017 resulted in $1,339,744,763.23 in ebook sales. Breaking that down simply to a single month, from around 9, months, brings us to $148,860,529.25 per month. With the wide assumption that Amazon accounts for 70% of ebook sales, and extrapolating that to revenue, we come up with $104,202,370.48 for ebook sales for Amazon per month on average for 2017.
> 
> ...


Amazing reply! Finally, a mathematician speaks.  The number does not excite me, objectively speaking, but you can stack one such insignificant number upon another. That's why the call for non-stop writing without rest...no passive income as they promised.



verysecretsquirrel said:


> Oh my gosh! I am finally in the top 3% of *something*. Yes, you may kiss my ring. Form an orderly queue, and ask nicely! ;-)


Hehe, I wish it only goes up from there. 



Crystal_ said:


> I agree.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with starting a pen name with the goal of making a living. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about your work. The reality of life is there are only so many hours in a week. If you have a full time job, you have a lot less time to write. Unless you have rich parents or a spouse who supports you full time, if you want to spend most of your time writing, you have to make money from this gig. I started my pen name intending to make a living, made soooo many mistakes, eventually figured it out. It took a lot of trial and error, a lot of learning and humility, and a non-trivial amount of money (I probably spent about 3-5k before I started to see profit) and time (at least a year of writing prose before I saw any return and many years of screenwriting/training before that (I have a BFA in film & TV with an emphasis on screen/TV writing (yes, I'm nesting my parentheticals))).
> 
> ...


Yes, even though bidding on those freelancing sites can be a pain. I don't know how else to find clients for creative fiction other than that.

You said about trials and errors from a particular pen name. A question...did you keep using the same pen name or do you normally shed off your pen name after learning your lessons with it?



verysecretsquirrel said:


> Third para: umm, sorry, but my stories are all about sex and nothing but sex. It's a sexual FETISH, you see, not, you know, actual, like.. INTERCOURSE...?! Selena Kitt said it best: sex sells. But she forgot to add, that what 'sex' *is* exactly is defined by the reader. It's an awful pun, but: if you write it, they will come. You just have to know what makes them come.


Yes, I heard that too. In fact, the readers are most often offended if they don't get what they want, i.e. some fast action, sensuality overloaded.

I have a question for all...

Do you think reviews are important? I was listening to a podcast featuring T. S. Paul of Conjuring Quantico fame. He said he does not care about reviews. It's mainly about the book, the blurb, the cover and marketing (I guess, he said he was spending $1000 per week on his recent book.)

What do you say? Getting reviews can always be a pain when you are a newcomer.


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

verysecretsquirrel said:


> Third para: umm, sorry, but my stories are all about sex and nothing but sex. It's a sexual FETISH, you see, not, you know, actual, like.. INTERCOURSE...?! Selena Kitt said it best: sex sells. But she forgot to add, that what 'sex' *is* exactly is defined by the reader. It's an awful pun, but: if you write it...


Sex sells, true. An erotica book without a fair amount of sex in it I wouldn't characterize as erotica.

But erotica books with characters that aren't cardboard cutouts also sell. An erotica book does not have to be the typographic equivalent of gonzo porn to actually sell. I think it depends on the audience.

I've read enough of the stuff by the bigger names to see a bit more depth and variety in the erotic offerings than just non-stop sexual content. I've also seen some erotica that ranked fairly high that was more like gonzo porn, and obviously it sells also. Erotica, like other genres, isn't a one trick pony.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

wilsonharp said:


> Let's go to math to figure out the average earning per book per month!
> 
> According to Authorearnings.com, the final three quarters of 2017 resulted in $1,339,744,763.23 in ebook sales. Breaking that down simply to a single month, from around 9, months, brings us to $148,860,529.25 per month. With the wide assumption that Amazon accounts for 70% of ebook sales, and extrapolating that to revenue, we come up with $104,202,370.48 for ebook sales for Amazon per month on average for 2017.
> 
> ...


Nice figures!

I would go further, and assume that the top 10% of the 3.4m books on Amazon scoop half the total sales value from the pot, leaving the other 3.1m books to share the rest.

That would suggest an average monthly of around $12 net royalty per book.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

The OP is looking for a get rich quick scheme. He/She either does not read in the genres they have mentioned or they have done no research. 
Just a quick google search will tell you that the indie/self-publishing landscape has changed and erotica shorts are not making money like they used to. Some erotica authors are facing red tape to get their books published and noticed on Amazon.

A quick search would also bring up many articles on romance (every sub-genre you can think of) and you can go and listen to many interviews on YouTube. Indie authors are mostly very open about their journey.

Members have given some good advice and shared personal stories here.

It is just common sense to know that there is _no average earnings_ in writing books, writing a screenplay, making a movie, drawing and selling a painting etc....

_Edited quoted post and a bit that responded to it. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Diana Kimpton (Feb 19, 2018)

No one can tell in advance how many copies a book will sell - not even traditional publishers. Some succeed unexpectedly, some are unexpected flops.  With self-publishing, sales are likely to be lower than with trad publishing because you're not going to get the high discount sales to supermarkets and other outlets which tend not to earn the author much anyway. Also sales fluctuate a lot during the year: travel books sell in the summer, celebrity bios and Christmas books sell in November/December and, in my experience, young adult sales go down when readers are revising for exams. 

Professional editing and a good cover are important. Not having them increases the risk of failure but having them doesn't guarantee good sales. For fiction, you need a stonkingly good story told really well while, for non-fiction, you need interesting information presented in a clear readable way.  

5 books a day would be unlikely for a first novel by an unknown author. Even 1 a day might be unrealistic. It depends on the book. 

My advice to new authors intending to self-publish is always "don't spend more than you can afford to lose". That applies to time too. If you enjoy writing, you'll do it anyway. If you're only doing it for the money, it's best to stop now as there are more reliable ways to earn a living. Only a few authors earn a lot of money. The rest starve in garrets or have day jobs.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Diana Kimpton said:


> No one can tell in advance how many copies a book will sell - not even traditional publishers. Some succeed unexpectedly, some are unexpected flops. With self-publishing, sales are likely to be lower than with trad publishing because you're not going to get the high discount sales to supermarkets and other outlets which tend not to earn the author much anyway. Also sales fluctuate a lot during the year: travel books sell in the summer, celebrity bios and Christmas books sell in November/December and, in my experience, young adult sales go down when readers are revising for exams.
> 
> Professional editing and a good cover are important. Not having them increases the risk of failure but having them doesn't guarantee good sales. For fiction, you need a stonkingly good story told really well while, for non-fiction, you need interesting information presented in a clear readable way.
> 
> ...


Very practical advice. Yes, I guess my primary question was since I am a copywriter, can I shift to fiction writing and earn a decent living (how hard it would be?).
But I liked your advice. Seasonality definitely matters. And from the previous replies also, I pretty much got the hint that there is really no "average for a book per month". It is basically 'anything can happen any moment', which is scary come to think about it. Only true passion will succeed in such a case. 

_Edited. Name calling is not allowed here. The word troll in particular is not allowed. If you have issues with a post, please report it using the "Report to moderator feature found in every post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, a quick glance tells me that some posts in this thread may be outside the bounds described by Forum Decorum. A quick reminder that we assume good faith here when responding to questions until proven otherwise...and that the word "troll," as well as other name-calling, is considered a four-letter word.

Peace while I review. Lots of other threads...

Betsy
KB Mod

EDIT: I've done considerable pruning. There was a less than gracious response to the OP, not the KB way, and it escalated from there. I appreciate the efforts by many to keep the thread on track. Remember, no one HAS to respond--if you think it an inappropriate question, don't answer it. Assume good faith, and if you find someone's post rude, report it using the report feature, move on to a different post and let us handle it. Thread unlock commencing in three, two, one...


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## Spin52 (Sep 6, 2015)

You asked if you could shift from copywriting to fiction and expect to make decent money. I have a background in journalism (20+ years) and I can tell you writing fiction in any genre takes an entirely different skill set. 
Yes, knowing how to spell, punctuate and construct readable copy will be useful, but the whole concept of creating characters, putting them into a setting and weaving a plot around them ... totally different and far more difficult. I suspect the skills you have learned through copywriting will actually be more useful when it comes to marketing your work than in writing it.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Nope, same pen name, though my first few books are currently unpunished. It's pretty easy to rectify mistakes when you're indie. It only takes a few minutes to upload a new cover, blurb, book file (takes longer to create them).

Erotica is tough to discuss because a lot of what's in the category is porn. Literary erotica is not the bulk of the erotica top 100. Many erotica writers call porn erotica but others are writing more traditional erotica.


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## Pacman (Dec 18, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> Okay, so first of all, you came in here and asked people you don't know to divulge personal information to you. You don't have a right to that information. If they want to share it with you that's totally up to them. But it is not your right to know it. And a lot of people consider it rude to ask someone how much money they make.
> 
> Also, it may be easier for a person to be guided through the process, but that means someone has to take the time to do the guiding. But we're all busy people who are working on our own businesses, and you need to show you're serious and give people a chance to get to know you before you can expect them to invest too much of their time on you.
> 
> ...


I have to ditto your post Shayne, the OP needs to understand that serious authors have a life which usually centres around hundreds of hours of research before they even put pencil to paper. I too wish newbies would do some research before asking basic questions that have been answered here on KB. KB is a phenomenal resource and one can only suggest to the OP to use it as such.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

schttrj said:


> Calling all established writers here.
> 
> I am a newbie writer. And I am really scared of spending over 2-3 months on a novel without seeing any monetary returns from it.
> 
> ...


The original question is above.

I can understand where the OP is coming from. Most people when they are wanting to start a new endeavor want to know what to expect and whether it will be worth their time or not. I think the OP just wanted to hear from some veteran writers what their experience was to figure out what to expect. The problem with starting any business or form of self-employment is there are no guarantees and with the arts it is even less. So that's why everyone is saying there really is no average. Even one writer's books can vary widely in terms of what they earn and their average won't be yours anyway. But self-publishing still is a wonderful opportunity. There are just no guarantees or any averages you can really go by.

I suppose the OP could have done more research but I honestly don't find the question rude or lazy to ask for feedback from experienced writers.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

JWright said:


> But self-publishing still is a wonderful opportunity. There are just no guarantees or any averages you can really go by.


It's a great opportunity provided you have the writing chops and marketing skills to be successful.

Full-time minimum wage pays (I think) $7.25 an hour, or $1160 a month. That's equivalent to selling 650 books (average length at $2.99/KU). I didn't sell fifty books total my first six months.

Some people, including myself, would say selling 650 books a month is a great success, but it would hard to live on that success.



> I suppose the OP could have done more research but I honestly don't find the question rude or lazy to ask for feedback from experienced writers.


It was the first question to pop into my mind when I thought about writing. If you type in Google "could I make money as a w..." it autofills "writer" (followed by "web designer", "web developer", "a freelance writer", "writing a book", etc.).

Lot's of people wonder.


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## TinyChickadee (Apr 11, 2018)

After some huge success this summer, my books are now earning about $30,000 per book, and I've been pubbing for a few years. I know I am an outlier, but those are my average gross earnings. I have a net spend of around $12,000 per year in expenses, and I publishing on a monthly and bi-monthly schedule across three pen-names.

I took me a bit to figure things out, but here I am now.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Dpock said:


> It's a great opportunity provided you have the writing chops and marketing skills to be successful.
> 
> Full-time minimum wage pays (I think) $7.25 an hour, or $1160 a month. That's equivalent to selling 650 books (average length at $2.99/KU). I didn't sell fifty books total my first six months.
> 
> ...


Yes, agreed. And a lot of great advice has been given that people very generously took their time to provide. I just think it's a bit harsh to say the question was dumb or the person was being lazy. The OP wanted first-hand experience so I think it's logical to ask where a lot of successful writers congregate. Of course no one is obligated to answer that doesn't want to.

Good point on your numbers of how many books you need to sell to even make minimum wage, and that's not even covering your costs to produce the book. But still some people are successful. It is definitely good to have realistic expectations.


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## TinyChickadee (Apr 11, 2018)

JWright said:


> Good point on your numbers of how many books you need to sell to even make minimum wage, and that's not even covering your costs to produce the book. But still some people are successful. It is definitely good to have realistic expectations.


So true! In my first few years, I was selling maybe 10-20 books a month? Now I sell around 10,000 per month. This post actually made me go look up what my numbers were. I would caution anyone that someone like me is not the normal circumstance, and I even consider my self to be a small fish compared to other authors.

The original post wasn't rude to ask. If someone isn't comfortable sharing, they don't have to.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

TinyChickadee said:


> So true! In my first few years, I was selling maybe 10-20 books a month? Now I sell around 10,000 per month. This post actually made me go look up what my numbers were. I would caution anyone that someone like me is not the normal circumstance, and I even consider my self to be a small fish compared to other authors.
> 
> The original post wasn't rude to ask. If someone isn't comfortable sharing, they don't have to.


Thank you so much for sharing. You are an inspiration!


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

TinyChickadee said:


> The original post wasn't rude to ask. If someone isn't comfortable sharing, they don't have to.


Many people consider it rude to ask someone you don't know how much money they make.


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## JadePowers (Aug 1, 2018)

I've written books under several names.  My worst selling book sold 2 copies. My best series sold enough to make a couple thousand.  There is really no way to know what will work and what won't, but I can say this:  

1) My standalone novels have the lowest sales.
2) My two longest series sell the best. 
3) A free opener goes a long way toward priming the pump (unless you're an awesome Facebook advertiser...I'm not, so I don't sell the first book at full price).

I've made minimum wage on maybe a fourth of my books, but that's over an extended period of time.  I actually consider that a 'rite of passage' for a book. Now if I could only figure out how to improve that...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, seriously....

Let's move on from accusing people of being rude or making other personal comments. Posts that do so will be removed and the members banned from the thread. I think there may be some stones being cast in glass houses here. No one is required to answer a question posted here.

As for the OP asking a question that's been asked here before...site founder Harvey, somewhere here, expressed his feelings about how newcomers and their questions should be responded to. I'll have to look for it but the gist was that questions should be answered patiently and with good grace, and if you can't do that because of time or inclination, you should move on to another thread. You can certainly help a newcomer learn how to find the information or you can ignore the question altogether...but to suggest that he or she is somehow wrong for asking a question and should have researched instead is not the KB way that Harvey intended.

EDIT: Harvey's statement is in Forum Decorum, under "Specific Rules:"



> - Sometimes newcomers ask questions that have been asked and answered before. That's okay. Help them out, and politely show them where the answer can be found. The forums are a big place and though we try to make information accessible, it takes a little while to get used to where everything is. If a newbie question really bothers you, just skip by that post and move on. Someone else will probably help.


Betsy
KB Mod


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

To the OP--

Here are some prior discussions here on KB which may be of use to you.

Betsy


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## jb1111 (Apr 6, 2018)

Here's ultimately how I view the idea of 'minimum wage' book writing.

I could spend my time watching TV, and earn absolutely zero for the same amount of time I take to write and make a little bit of money while entertaining myself actually producing something.

Yeah, it may not be a novel that changes society like Orwell or Dickens, but it still is rewarding.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> To the OP--
> 
> Here are some prior discussions here on KB which may be of use to you.
> 
> Betsy


Thanks, Betsy. Going to give it a look, definitely.



JWright said:


> The original question is above.
> 
> I can understand where the OP is coming from. Most people when they are wanting to start a new endeavor want to know what to expect and whether it will be worth their time or not. I think the OP just wanted to hear from some veteran writers what their experience was to figure out what to expect. The problem with starting any business or form of self-employment is there are no guarantees and with the arts it is even less. So that's why everyone is saying there really is no average. Even one writer's books can vary widely in terms of what they earn and their average won't be yours anyway. But self-publishing still is a wonderful opportunity. There are just no guarantees or any averages you can really go by.
> 
> I suppose the OP could have done more research but I honestly don't find the question rude or lazy to ask for feedback from experienced writers.


Thank you for understanding. That's exactly what I had in mind. Frankly, it's a given that whenever someone comes up with a question, we Google it first. But, such results might be one year old or they might be from only one author. Thus, when we feel unsatisfied by what we find or feel the need to ask a few professionals first-hand, that's when we take further steps. This question was not to bother anyone who is busy doing research or who might not be open to sharing their first-hand experience in terms of numbers (not their income!). In fact, I already said a ballpark estimate about how much a book might generate is good enough. If there's no such average, it's okay. I get the unpredictability of the business, as with any other art business.



TinyChickadee said:


> After some huge success this summer, my books are now earning about $30,000 per book, and I've been pubbing for a few years. I know I am an outlier, but those are my average gross earnings. I have a net spend of around $12,000 per year in expenses, and I publishing on a monthly and bi-monthly schedule across three pen-names.
> 
> I took me a bit to figure things out, but here I am now.


Whoa! From selling 10-20 books per month to $30,000 per book, amaziiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnggg! Congratulations. I won't ask for details. But can you share the genre you are? What do you think made the difference, if I may ask?


JadePowers said:


> I've written books under several names. My worst selling book sold 2 copies. My best series sold enough to make a couple thousand. There is really no way to know what will work and what won't, but I can say this:
> 
> 1) My standalone novels have the lowest sales.
> 2) My two longest series sell the best.
> ...


Hope you figure that out soon. But considering the 'average' I see on the Author Earnings report, you are definitely not doing badly. By the rite of passage, do you mean a certain gestation period? But doesn't sales spike on the first day and goes down over time? Why I ask is because I chatted with Joanna Penn a few days ago. Even she said that fiction does better over time. Series sell better I guess, from the abundance of series novels on Amazon these days.



jb1111 said:


> Here's ultimately how I view the idea of 'minimum wage' book writing.
> 
> I could spend my time watching TV, and earn absolutely zero for the same amount of time I take to write and make a little bit of money while entertaining myself actually producing something.
> 
> Yeah, it may not be a novel that changes society like Orwell or Dickens, but it still is rewarding.


Actually, it's a nice way to look at that. We do waste our time on much useless stuff. In this case, it is still rewarding and might act as our little contribution to the world.


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## 9 Diamonds (Oct 4, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> And third, there are many writers on this board who have been writing stories and working on their trade for many years. They've come to writing because they love stories and they can't not write. So when someone new comes in who hasn't even narrowed down the genre they want to write in - and the people who've been here a while have likely seen this a fair bit - it smacks of someone who just decided they want to write because they think it will be an easy way to make money, rather than because they have a real passion for storytelling. And that can be offensive to people who take their storytelling seriously. (Again, not saying that's true, but it appears that way, and appearances count for a lot.)


I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks, Shayne. So true. Thirty years of writing and being professionally published, trad and now indie, and it's still my prime motivation. The love and the passion ... making good money from that is a fabulous bonus and I'm all too appreciative of that.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

9 Diamonds said:


> I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks, Shayne. So true. Thirty years of writing and being professionally published, trad and now indie, and it's still my prime motivation. The love and the passion ... making good money from that is a fabulous bonus and I'm all too appreciative of that.


I respect your dedication. But since you agreed with that comment, let me ask you one simple question. Why do you think someone shows interest in shifting from his present job that "pays" to full-time fiction writing? Plainly, the original question was not "How can I make millions from my first book?" So, why would someone take the pains of leaving a job and look forward to writing full-time and expect a decent living from that? Is it not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money?

Having said that, I would have got much more help if you could be a little more specific about the genre you write in, anything special that you think worked for you or a ballpark figure to inspire me that it is certainly doable or that I am chasing a mirage. I think that's what I looking for from the veterans.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

schttrj said:


> I respect your dedication. But since you agreed with that comment, let me ask you one simple question. Why do you think someone shows interest in shifting from his present job that "pays" to full-time fiction writing? Plainly, the original question was not "How can I make millions from my first book?" So, why would someone take the pains of leaving a job and look forward to writing full-time and expect a decent living from that? Is it not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money?
> 
> Having said that, I would have got much more help if you could be a little more specific about the genre you write in, anything special that you think worked for you or a ballpark figure to inspire me that it is certainly doable or that I am chasing a mirage. I think that's what I looking for from the veterans.


It's not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money, when the person in question has never written a novel before. Because many people don't realize all the work that goes into writing and publishing a novel until they've tried it. So many people seem to assume it's easy, so it's not much of a stretch to go from that to thinking that writing would make for easy money. Also, most book lovers seem to have a couple of favorite genres that they prefer over all others, so when someone comes along and says they have no idea what genre they want to write, and ask what's the best genre to write in, that's also a hint that they're not actually coming to the whole writing thing because they love writing.

You seem to want assurances that if you do this, you'll achieve that. If you write in whatever genre, you'll be able to make a living at it. But there are no assurances. Just because someone else did one thing doesn't mean it will work for you. Writing in a certain genre just because someone else writes in it doesn't guarantee anything. Plenty of people have told you that you could make hundreds, or thousands, or nothing at all, but there is absolutely zero way of telling which one will happen for you. Until you get started and get an idea if you like it, and if you're any good at it, nothing anyone says will be truly useful, because you won't know if it's in any way comparable to your own situation.

Writing is best learned by doing, and if you're not even willing to sit down and make a start without a ballpark figure to inspire you, you're probably going to find it really difficult to forge ahead when a plot gets uncooperative and the writing turns into a slog. People can tell you what worked for them until the cows come home, but I guarantee you, the ones who are truly successful didn't need someone else to inspire them. They wrote because they wanted to write, even though there were no promises. And I bet at least a few people might be more forthcoming with some of their hard-earned info, if you showed that you were willing to spend some of your own time writing first.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

schttrj said:


> I respect your dedication. But since you agreed with that comment, let me ask you one simple question. Why do you think someone shows interest in shifting from his present job that "pays" to full-time fiction writing? Plainly, the original question was not "How can I make millions from my first book?" So, why would someone take the pains of leaving a job and look forward to writing full-time and expect a decent living from that? Is it not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money?
> 
> Having said that, I would have got much more help if you could be a little more specific about the genre you write in, anything special that you think worked for you or a ballpark figure to inspire me that it is certainly doable or that I am chasing a mirage. I think that's what I looking for from the veterans.


_OP, you seem to be looking for an answer that does not exist._ There is no average earnings and every author on this forum could write down their genre and earnings, but it would not help you.

Why? Because that author needs to then tell you their background:

1. When did they start writing 
1.1. Are they writing 100k novels, 50k novels, 25k novellas, short stories
2. how many books did they delete/throw in the trash
3. did they send their books out to get a traditional deal
4. Did they get rejected
5. Did they self-edit or pay for an editor, cover artist, proofreader
6. what pre-promotion or marketing did they do
7. how many copies did they sell out of the gate
8. How much did they spend on promotion or marketing
9. Did they give away books, did they use book bloggers, did any readers brag about their books to their thousands of followers
10. Did they re-do their blurb, cover or re-edit the entire book. 
11. Are they just selling on Amazon or wide
12. Are they just selling ebooks or is it ebooks, audiobooks and paperback
13. Are they writing in a crowded popular genre or sub-genre
14. Are they writing series or standalones
15. Did they read widely in the genre they are writing in
16. Are they a hybrid author
17. Do they have an agent 
18. Do they have an assistant

And 10 or more other factors that will affect their earnings.

Some authors are just great at storytelling too.

The question is too general and cannot be answered. You want to know what genre people are writing in, but how is that going to help you if you want to write in a completely different genre.

If I asked every romance author on here to tell me how much they earn, it wouldn't really help me. That author could have started their career in 2011, they have experimented and found a sub-genre that suits them. They have built a fanbase, they have made mistakes and have a better idea of what readers want in their sub-genre. Maybe they spend half of their income on promotion, do I have that kind of money to spend? Maybe they cross promote or co-author.

I can use their story to inspire me. There are authors on this forum who have shared their story and I am inspired by them but I still need to write in a genre I like/love, write engaging books, experiment, find my readers and everything in between.

_There is no average earnings._


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> It's not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money, when the person in question has never written a novel before. Because many people don't realize all the work that goes into writing and publishing a novel until they've tried it. So many people seem to assume it's easy, so it's not much of a stretch to go from that to thinking that writing would make for easy money. Also, most book lovers seem to have a couple of favorite genres that they prefer over all others, so when someone comes along and says they have no idea what genre they want to write, and ask what's the best genre to write in, that's also a hint that they're not actually coming to the whole writing thing because they love writing.
> 
> You seem to want assurances that if you do this, you'll achieve that. If you write in whatever genre, you'll be able to make a living at it. But there are no assurances. Just because someone else did one thing doesn't mean it will work for you. Writing in a certain genre just because someone else writes in it doesn't guarantee anything. Plenty of people have told you that you could make hundreds, or thousands, or nothing at all, but there is absolutely zero way of telling which one will happen for you. Until you get started and get an idea if you like it, and if you're any good at it, nothing anyone says will be truly useful, because you won't know if it's in any way comparable to your own situation.
> 
> Writing is best learned by doing, and if you're not even willing to sit down and make a start without a ballpark figure to inspire you, you're probably going to find it really difficult to forge ahead when a plot gets uncooperative and the writing turns into a slog. People can tell you what worked for them until the cows come home, but I guarantee you, the ones who are truly successful didn't need someone else to inspire them. They wrote because they wanted to write, even though there were no promises. And I bet at least a few people might be more forthcoming with some of their hard-earned info, if you showed that you were willing to spend some of your own time writing first.


^ ^
All of this


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## TinyChickadee (Apr 11, 2018)

ShayneRutherford said:


> People can tell you what worked for them until the cows come home, but I guarantee you, the ones who are truly successful didn't need someone else to inspire them. They wrote because they wanted to write, even though there were no promises.


Hearing how much other people had made inspired me to take my writing from casual to professional. It gave me the confidence to invest in myself as a professional because I had read inspirational stories from other authors who'd started from nothing and grown their career over months, and years. It gave me the push to invest in professional covers, professional editing and proofing, proper formatting, and marketing. If I hadn't done those things, I'd still be selling a few copies of my books a month instead of tipping the edge of ten thousand copies per month.

I came to _publishing_ because I wanted to make an income to support myself, and my family. I was always a writer, but I published because I wanted to make money, and lots of it, as quickly as possible. I feel no guilt over wanting to be paid, and paid well for my craft, and I hit my stride fairly early on in my writing career. I now make a healthy income, allowing me to employ a team of people to get the work done, so to speak, in the publishing and promotion of my books. This is something I never would have even taken the first steps toward if I hadn't heard that indie writers were doing well for themselves. I would have muddled along with my private writings, thinking that I'd never be able to get an agent or a publishing house to look at my stories.

There are no promises in business, of any kind. Anybody who believes otherwise is a fool. My success is not a promise of someone elses's success, but just because it isn't a bonafide guarantee doesn't mean I can't inspire someone to start their journey, just like I was inspired.

First we need to ask "what's possible?" then we need to ask "how could a person accomplish that?" and then we need to ask "how do I accomplish that?" Some of those answers will come from external sources, and some will come from within. If someone says "I just want to write, whatever will pay the bills", I don't immediately ascribe some sort of ill intention to that, because I was and AM like that. I just want to write, whatever will pay the bills, because the simple act of writing makes me happy, and I will happily write almost anything as I enjoy many genres of books! I focus my energies on genres that pay well, because then I get to enjoy participating in my favorite activity (writing) AND I get paid handsomely to do so. Win, win, win.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

I have several friends who declared their interest in writing a novel of their own, seduced by my seemingly easy life of working when I feel like it, while still making enough to pay the bills.

Without exception, none got past the 10k-12k mark. I know, because that's when their progress reports dried up. This, with a published author on hand to answer their questions, and writing software to help keep them organised and on track.

Writing a novel is incredibly hard, and there's an old piece of advice which says you need to put 10,000 hours into anything to become a professional at that task. For writing, that equates to knocking out roughly a million words of fiction as a suitable apprenticeship. Obviously there are outliers, like those amazing freaks of nature who are born storytellers, but for the rest of us it's head down and get writing.

Then there's the self-editing. I worked on a fiction mag with a dozen other people for over a decade, and reading the slushpile was an eye-opening education. 90% of submissions were unfinished work, derivative, lacking any kind of plot or just plain unpublishable. That's when I realised that you don't have to be the best to make a living at this game, you only have to be in the top 10%

That was before the ebook revolution, by the way. Back then it was sell your work or remain unpublished.

Sorry to digress, but I just wanted to point out that writing a novel, while difficult, isn't even the start of it. I'd recommend writing at least three novels before deciding whether it's going to be a money spinner or not.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

TinyChickadee said:


> Hearing how much other people had made inspired me to take my writing from casual to professional. It gave me the confidence to invest in myself as a professional because I had read inspirational stories from other authors who'd started from nothing and grown their career over months, and years. It gave me the push to invest in professional covers, professional editing and proofing, proper formatting, and marketing. If I hadn't done those things, I'd still be selling a few copies of my books a month instead of tipping the edge of ten thousand copies per month.
> 
> I came to _publishing_ because I wanted to make an income to support myself, and my family. I was always a writer, but I published because I wanted to make money, and lots of it, as quickly as possible. I feel no guilt over wanting to be paid, and paid well for my craft, and I hit my stride fairly early on in my writing career. I now make a healthy income, allowing me to employ a team of people to get the work done, so to speak, in the publishing and promotion of my books. This is something I never would have even taken the first steps toward if I hadn't heard that indie writers were doing well for themselves. I would have muddled along with my private writings, thinking that I'd never be able to get an agent or a publishing house to look at my stories.
> 
> ...


But as you said, you had always been a writer. You found inspiration in knowing that others had succeeded as you hope to, but you already had a base to start from because you'd already written some fiction. The OP hasn't written any fiction, as far as I can tell, and he keeps asking for more numbers when plenty of people have already given him some rather inspirational numbers, and UsedToPostHere provided him with some great statistics.

You should never feel guilty for wanting to be paid for your writing. I wasn't trying to imply that writers shouldn't make money for their writing, either. I hope to make money from mine one day. But I think there's a big difference between wanting to make money from something you're already good at and have put the work in on, and deciding out of the blue that you want to make a living at writing fiction within a year, when you've never written a novel before, and don't seem to be willing to start until you have some assurance of success. One is realistic, I think, and one is quite a bit less so. That chart that Used posted is pretty good evidence of that.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> I read in several threads that erotica shorts still work. No, I am not saying that they make millions (except for Chuck Tingle, perhaps). Yes, I know KU2 might have affected it but how about direct sales?


What do you mean by direct sales? From your own site? Probably won't earn back the fees to run it. I don't know what threads you've read, or how old they are, but erotica is very hard to make decent money in. You have to find a good kink, write lots of stories a week and publish well. Amazon has specific rules about erotica and what's allowed. It isn't a free-for-all, write whatever you want deal.

Forget that "underserved niche" thing. If it was a viable market, the experienced erotica writers would be selling in it. Trust me.

If you want to learn more about writing erotica, a Reddit forum called erotica authors is a good place to start. It has gone over to talking about romance a lot now, since so many have switched to that genre, but still loads of folks doing the "smut" walk. 



ShayneRutherford said:


> Many people consider it rude to ask someone you don't know how much money they make.


This. It's okay to ask in general what is to be expected, but not for personal details. Indies do tend to share a lot of information, but I can see why some of us are leery of a newbie coming in with such questions. Especially one who seems to haven't done much research into fiction writing. We've seen people who think writing and publishing is easy, sit back and watch the millions roll in. We've seen people who think erotica is the path to all the money. We've seen people who think romance is a snap to write, and readers will buy anything. So, we're skeptical.



> Frankly, it's a given that whenever someone comes up with a question, we Google it first.


Judging from my own experience and that of others, this is actually not the case.

You keep asking questions that lead me to think you're looking for some magic formula that's going to make self publishing fiction a sure thing. The sure-fire genre that's going to make it all easy living. Let me tell you right now, straight up, that there isn't one. That's as honest as I can be about this. If you think you have what it takes to tell a good story, then all you can do is try it. Write in a genre you can see yourself working in for a long time, because that's likely what you're going to have to do. Behind every "overnight success" is years of hard work, dedication, learning and tears. Anyone who tells you differently is pulling your leg.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

Simon Haynes said:


> I have several friends who declared their interest in writing a novel of their own, seduced by my seemingly easy life of working when I feel like it, while still making enough to pay the bills.
> 
> Without exception, none got past the 10k-12k mark. I know, because that's when their progress reports dried up. This, with a published author on hand to answer their questions, and writing software to help keep them organised and on track.


THIS

Ever since I made writing my living, most people (especially family) assume that it's an easy ticket to riches, glory and days full of TV. Some of them are actually good story-tellers. They come to me for advice about how to start self-publishing and what's the average income they can earn. My answer is always the same; it depends. On how good a story-teller you are, the genre, whether there's a ready market for your story, how much advertizing you can afford, your rapport with people once you start building your reader base, how you package your books, how many books you have.... there are so many factors at play. Still, I try to be positive because I was once in their position. I used to be a fan-fiction writer on Wattpad and one of my online friends pushed me to publish. She kept telling me that I could actually make a living out of this even when I didn't believe it. She was right. That's why I also try to be positive when I'm telling other would-be publishers about what self-publishing is about.

Then they ask me how they can start. Ask me how they can set up websites, start advertizing etc.

My answer is always the same. Why don't you write the book first then come and we can talk about everything else. I'll even help you set up accounts with the different vendors, show you how to market, introduce you to cover designers etc... But come with a complete book.

Only one person has ever come back.

OP: My advice for you is not expect a windfall from your first book. It rarely happens unless you're really lucky or have mastered the art of marketing books. This usually discourages the people who are in it for the quick buck. I personally only made about $100 on my first book. And I was one of the better ones. It's Book Four that really got things rolling and me into Club four-figures a month (or more). I write romance, but in a tiny niche sub-genre.

Average earning from each book per month? I wish I could answer the question for you, but I can't because, it _depends_. Some books are just flops, others are still giving three years later. All I know is how many of each book I've sold, what genre it was in, its highest ranking, and what marketing I did for it. But even with that I still can't predict what my next book is going to earn.

I'm sorry I couldn't give you a more precise answer, but I hope it doesn't discourage you from publishing if you're really interested in getting your stories out there. Good Luck!


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

ShayneRutherford said:


> It's not absolutely contradictory to the assumption that someone is looking for easy money, when the person in question has never written a novel before. Because many people don't realize all the work that goes into writing and publishing a novel until they've tried it. So many people seem to assume it's easy, so it's not much of a stretch to go from that to thinking that writing would make for easy money. Also, most book lovers seem to have a couple of favorite genres that they prefer over all others, so when someone comes along and says they have no idea what genre they want to write, and ask what's the best genre to write in, that's also a hint that they're not actually coming to the whole writing thing because they love writing.


Did I say that I was not writing? Did you ask me if I was working on anything?



ShayneRutherford said:


> You seem to want assurances that if you do this, you'll achieve that. If you write in whatever genre, you'll be able to make a living at it. But there are no assurances. Just because someone else did one thing doesn't mean it will work for you. Writing in a certain genre just because someone else writes in it doesn't guarantee anything. Plenty of people have told you that you could make hundreds, or thousands, or nothing at all, but there is absolutely zero way of telling which one will happen for you. Until you get started and get an idea if you like it, and if you're any good at it, nothing anyone says will be truly useful, because you won't know if it's in any way comparable to your own situation.


Please read this thread more carefully so that you could find my reply where I said I am actually writing a novel based on romance, not mushy but winging it at the moment. In fact, I also said the genres I am looking upon is romance, erotica and thriller.



ShayneRutherford said:


> Writing is best learned by doing, and if you're not even willing to sit down and make a start without a ballpark figure to inspire you, you're probably going to find it really difficult to forge ahead when a plot gets uncooperative and the writing turns into a slog. People can tell you what worked for them until the cows come home, but I guarantee you, the ones who are truly successful didn't need someone else to inspire them. They wrote because they wanted to write, even though there were no promises. And I bet at least a few people might be more forthcoming with some of their hard-earned info, if you showed that you were willing to spend some of your own time writing first.


While I take this advice upon good intentions, you seem to talk on false assumptions. Again, I have always written flash fiction and poems for myself and I now aspire to shift full-time to fiction writing. So, questioning my interest in writing, I don't think that's wise. Moreover, the thread question was pretty simple: "what's the average that a book make?" I assumed for the established writers, there might be an average but apparently, it is not. Yes, the question might be broad but it was asking for your experience. Simple. To answer your claim in a previous comment, a question on the average a book makes does not question your total income. For instance, if you have 42 books in total and you are making $84,000 per year, you can just say that a book usually makes $2,000 per year. How would I know your income?



Simon Haynes said:


> I have several friends who declared their interest in writing a novel of their own, seduced by my seemingly easy life of working when I feel like it, while still making enough to pay the bills.
> 
> Without exception, none got past the 10k-12k mark. I know, because that's when their progress reports dried up. This, with a published author on hand to answer their questions, and writing software to help keep them organised and on track.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, it's incredibly hard. I totally agree with you. And I respect your taking the time out to share this with me.



BellaJames said:


> _OP, you seem to be looking for an answer that does not exist._ There is no average earnings and every author on this forum could write down their genre and earnings, but it would not help you.
> 
> Why? Because that author needs to then tell you their background:
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, it just does not make any sense. There is an _average_. You know how? Because some author's work is selling 1000 copies a month. If you ask him, he will say "I average around 1000". Someone will say, "I am just unlucky I guess. It's 10-20 for me." Everyone's got an average. If it's not linear like that, it might be like, "My book normally fetches $10k in its whole lifetime." So you see, there is an _average_.

And all those questions, yes, this thread was not digging into the whole author history. Just a mere specific points or suggestions to someone who is a beginner. For instance, if you ask me, "Can I make money as a financial copywriter? Or what would I need to do for that?" I would say, "You have to have a solid foundation in business or finance. If done well, it can be seriously lucrative, going up over 100k per year." You see, I would not say to you, "Go write a copy first." because I assume that part is taken care of. If you are interested in copywriting, you would have to write copies sooner or later obviously.



TinyChickadee said:


> Hearing how much other people had made inspired me to take my writing from casual to professional. It gave me the confidence to invest in myself as a professional because I had read inspirational stories from other authors who'd started from nothing and grown their career over months, and years. It gave me the push to invest in professional covers, professional editing and proofing, proper formatting, and marketing. If I hadn't done those things, I'd still be selling a few copies of my books a month instead of tipping the edge of ten thousand copies per month.
> 
> I came to _publishing_ because I wanted to make an income to support myself, and my family. I was always a writer, but I published because I wanted to make money, and lots of it, as quickly as possible. I feel no guilt over wanting to be paid, and paid well for my craft, and I hit my stride fairly early on in my writing career. I now make a healthy income, allowing me to employ a team of people to get the work done, so to speak, in the publishing and promotion of my books. This is something I never would have even taken the first steps toward if I hadn't heard that indie writers were doing well for themselves. I would have muddled along with my private writings, thinking that I'd never be able to get an agent or a publishing house to look at my stories.
> 
> ...


No other words but a BIG THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Schttrj--

You and Shayne seem to push each other's buttons. I suggest you stop engaging. Not every post needs to be responded to.. Focus on the responses that help you and provide the information you are looking for. Our community and you are not served if this thread devolves into an argument.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

she-la-ti-da said:


> What do you mean by direct sales? From your own site? Probably won't earn back the fees to run it. I don't know what threads you've read, or how old they are, but erotica is very hard to make decent money in. You have to find a good kink, write lots of stories a week and publish well. Amazon has specific rules about erotica and what's allowed. It isn't a free-for-all, write whatever you want deal.
> 
> Forget that "underserved niche" thing. If it was a viable market, the experienced erotica writers would be selling in it. Trust me.
> 
> If you want to learn more about writing erotica, a Reddit forum called erotica authors is a good place to start. It has gone over to talking about romance a lot now, since so many have switched to that genre, but still loads of folks doing the "smut" walk.


Yes, I do follow that thread. And yes, I have heard that the so-called gold rush is over. It was quite profitable a few years ago but then, a market always gets saturated like everywhere. By direct sales, I mean, someone picking up your copy from Kindle instead of reading it on Kindle Unlimited. Pardon me if I am mistaken about a few things. I know there's lot to learn.



she-la-ti-da said:


> You keep asking questions that lead me to think you're looking for some magic formula that's going to make self publishing fiction a sure thing. The sure-fire genre that's going to make it all easy living. Let me tell you right now, straight up, that there isn't one. That's as honest as I can be about this. If you think you have what it takes to tell a good story, then all you can do is try it. Write in a genre you can see yourself working in for a long time, because that's likely what you're going to have to do. Behind every "overnight success" is years of hard work, dedication, learning and tears. Anyone who tells you differently is pulling your leg.


Oh no, no, any art business does not offer predictability. In fact, any business for that matter. How can there be a magic formula to self-publishing? That's why I keep repeating that all else being equal, what might the average be or that I might expect? Ultimately, it still depends. I think Annie said it. Even if I do everything right, I might make zero or end up with a million dollar in hands. But neither am I interested in zero or in getting rich quick. I was asking for advice from veterans that provided I focus my full commitment to it, can I expect to make a living out of it? But frankly, I wasn't forcing anyone to answer me. If anyone would have the good grace to help me out, I will send a big thank you his or her way. That's it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

schttrj said:


> Unfortunately, it just does not make any sense. There is an _average_. You know how? Because some author's work is selling 1000 copies a month. If you ask him, he will say "I average around 1000". Someone will say, "I am just unlucky I guess. It's 10-20 for me." Everyone's got an average. If it's not linear like that, it might be like, "My book normally fetches $10k in its whole lifetime." So you see, there is an _average_.


More than one person has pointed out that there is an average for any one specific book, but that it can vary widely between books by the same author. One book might sell 10 copies a month and another book by the same author might average 1000 copies a month. So, does that ~500 copy a month average really mean anything? Maybe an author has 10 books and only the tenth one so far really makes any real coin--it took that long for the author to produce something that the market would embrace. This is what many here are trying to say.

And as far as people knowing your backstory--you are wrong that people should have assumed certain facts as being in evidence. The one thing about having answered these questions before, as many in this thread have, is knowing that the people who have asked them have had many kinds of backgrounds and many different expectations of how easy or hard it is to earn a living from writing. That is the backstory they are bringing to this thread.

I'm seeing impatience on both sides. If this thread devolves into an argument, I'm going to lock the thread. Remember, not every post nor every comment in every post needs to be responded to. Take what helps you, move on from the rest.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> More than one person has pointed out that there is an average for any one specific book, but that it can vary widely between books by the same author. One book might sell 10 copies a month and another book by the same author might average 1000 copies a month. So, does that ~500 copy a month average really mean anything? Maybe an author has 10 books and only the tenth one so far really makes any real coin--it took that long for the author to produce something that the market would embrace. This is what many here are trying to say.
> 
> And as far as people knowing your backstory--you are wrong that people should have assumed certain facts as being in evidence. The one thing about having answered these questions before, as many in this thread have, is knowing that the people who have asked them have had many kinds of backgrounds and many different expectations of how easy or hard it is to earn a living from writing. That is the backstory they are bringing to this thread.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree my replies have been rather sharp to a few recurrent posters who seem to twist facts and questions even after I am explaining my point every time. My bad, again! 



A J Sika said:


> THIS
> 
> Ever since I made writing my living, most people (especially family) assume that it's an easy ticket to riches, glory and days full of TV. Some of them are actually good story-tellers. They come to me for advice about how to start self-publishing and what's the average income they can earn. My answer is always the same; it depends. On how good a story-teller you are, the genre, whether there's a ready market for your story, how much advertizing you can afford, your rapport with people once you start building your reader base, how you package your books, how many books you have.... there are so many factors at play. Still, I try to be positive because I was once in their position. I used to be a fan-fiction writer on Wattpad and one of my online friends pushed me to publish. She kept telling me that I could actually make a living out of this even when I didn't believe it. She was right. That's why I also try to be positive when I'm telling other would-be publishers about what self-publishing is about.
> 
> ...


Your answer inspired me. Yes, I am in the process of writing one. And I am struggling to put words on paper. 3000 words in.  But you definitely guided me with a few pointers: sub-sub-niche, good returns by the fourth book, and Romance. One question, did you do AMS or Facebook ads?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

There is a highlighted area of posts at the top of the site. One of them is called "*FAQs and Tips for Using the Writers' Cafe" *or something similar. It includes all the most helpful marketing and success story threads from writers like Elle Casey and Russell Blake. My own thread is up there, too, titled "What Worked for Me." It is very, very basic, like Square-One basic, but it is there if somebody is looking for basic.

The answer to your question is that each book has made me, on average, $1335 per month (ETA: had an extra zero in there! I wish!) My full earnings divided by the number of books I have written (26), over 72 months. All the books are in audio, and six are in German translation, so that figure includes those versions. The lowest-selling book has made about $20,000; the highest-selling, about $160,000. The overall average is about $95,000/book. I haven't had any true flops, but that figure isn't enough to make traditional publishers, for example, fall out of their chairs and start tossing money at me.

Mine is not the usual story, and it's not the biggest success story. Below is my own journey. For most of my six years of publishing, my marketing strategy has been this:

-New book every 3-4 months
-Genre
-Concept (Hook)
-Writing + editing/formatting
-Title; series title
-Cover
-Blurb
(all of the above have to work together)
-Announce in newsletter (didn't start doing this till a few years in)
-Facebook page where I mainly engage on non-book topics
-Every 3 months or so: stacked ads, including BookBub if I can get it (they're harder now), for an early book in whatever series I'm releasing. Or just an early book. Free promo on that book. Sell-through.

That's it. No CPC ads (AMS, Facebook, BookBub CPC, etc. I do have one AMS ad running with two authors named, costing me less than a dollar a day. I left that one because it's cheap visibility.)

-I do now have four books traditionally published, as well as a number of audiobooks and three German books done with publishers.

In my experience, how well you do all of the above determines how well your books perform, but* it starts and ends with the book*. Beyond launch day and launch month, the "legs" a book has? Its performance when you advertise, and its ability to pull your other books up with it? That is all on the book.

*First and last, it's about your ability to write a hooky, compelling book for your genre's audience. The other stuff is the wheels and the signage on the wagon: your delivery mechanism. How well your goods sell depends on what's in the wagon.* And that's a never-ending challenge to improve. You sell better by GETTING better.


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

I would recommend looking at a case study of what is widely considered one of the best works of American Fiction in the last 60 years, _A Confederacy of Dunces_ by John Kennedy Toole.

It was published in 1980 and won the Pulitzer Prize in 1981 for literature. By that time, Toole had been in his grave for over a decade after having committed suicide. The depression that apparently drove him to that act was deepened considerably when he could not get his novel published. Only through the long, hard work of his mother was it ever published.

Now, also consider another, more recent, case study. The Millennium series (_The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo_, _The Girl Who Played with Fire_, and _The Girl Who Kicked the Hornets' Nest_) by Stieg Larsson. Larsson wrote these novels merely for his own pleasure and spent little time, mostly right near the end of his life, trying to get them published.

Both men had written very popular, award winning books and neither lived long enough to see their success. Toole was driven to depression and desperation due to this, while Larsson lived a content life without striving to publish.

But both men loved writing. Even after death, their love of writing and story-telling brought forth fruit.

I have never heard of a fiction writer who had any notable level of success without an absolute love of writing. But bluntly, for every moderately successful writer who loves writing, there are thousands of writers who love writing who will never be able to pay a utility bill from their sales.

This is not an easy path for any writer, and it becomes dramatically harder if you don't have the drive and desire to write for simply for writing sake.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

schttrj said:


> Did I say that I was not writing? Did you ask me if I was working on anything?
> 
> Please read this thread more carefully so that you could find my reply where I said I am actually writing a novel based on romance, not mushy but winging it at the moment. In fact, I also said the genres I am looking upon is romance, erotica and thriller.


Apologies. I must have missed this.



schttrj said:


> While I take this advice upon good intentions, you seem to talk on false assumptions. Again, I have always written flash fiction and poems for myself and I now aspire to shift full-time to fiction writing


I don't recall seeing that anywhere about flash fiction and poetry. Again, apologies if I missed it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

wilsonharp said:


> I would recommend looking at a case study of what is widely considered one of the best works of American Fiction in the last 60 years, _A Confederacy of Dunces_ by John Kennedy Toole.
> 
> It was published in 1980 and won the Pulitzer Prize in 1981 for literature. By that time, Toole had been in his grave for over a decade after having committed suicide. The depression that apparently drove him to that act was deepened considerably when he could not get his novel published. Only through the long, hard work of his mother was it ever published.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Writing fiction for a living is a double-sided thing--you work to get better not only because that's the way to sell better, but because it is satisfying. Passionately satisfying. On the other hand, you do HAVE to work (at least, 99% of professional novelists probably do), if you want to keep selling. That means working when you're not feeling well, when you don't think you have anything to say. You find ways to jar that loose, whether it's just sitting down and writing crappy stuff, knowing that as Nora Roberts said, "I can fix a bad page. I can't fix a blank page," or whether it's going for a walk or a bike ride, lighting a candle, having some good sexual fantasies (if you're a romance novelist, these tend to help!). Whatever it takes to jar the story loose. Because it is, in the end, your job.

My own process necessitates a lot of walking around, a lot of being outdoors, emptying my mind of busy stuff before the story shows up, until the end of the book when the tap is permanently on. Other authors hew to a disciplined schedule of X hours a day of work, and are good at turning the tap on and off. Whatever your process, if you want to write for a living, you darned well had better want to, and be able to, write fiction for hours every day. Every week. Every month. Every year.


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## TinyChickadee (Apr 11, 2018)

Paperback Writer said:


> I think you've answered your own question.
> 
> Maybe you could try your hand at writing non-fiction books. Those are more like products, which you could promote using your current business experience and skills. Best of luck to you.


I would actually suggest going back to your plot. 99% of writing problems (in my opinion) relate back to a poorly formed plot. If you know where you're going and how you're going to get there (via a well fleshed out pot) then it's not hard at all to write.


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## Joseph Malik (Jul 12, 2016)

schttrj said:


> I am struggling to put words on paper. 3000 words in.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Some authors struggle and some don't. I don't, personally, and never have (except with fear of disappointing people). That doesn't mean anything, and neither does your process, as long as you CAN write the book and it turns out well. If you're at 3,000 words and don't have a clue how to structure your book, though, you will probably have to take a more cerebral, less instinctive approach.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Usedtoposthere said:


> There is a highlighted area of posts at the top of the site. One of them is called "*FAQs and Tips for Using the Writers' Cafe" *or something similar. It includes all the most helpful marketing and success story threads from writers like Elle Casey and Russell Blake. My own thread is up there, too, titled "What Worked for Me." It is very, very basic, like Square-One basic, but it is there if somebody is looking for basic.
> 
> The answer to your question is that each book has made me, on average, $1335 per month (ETA: had an extra zero in there! I wish!) My full earnings divided by the number of books I have written (26), over 72 months. All the books are in audio, and six are in German translation, so that figure includes those versions. The lowest-selling book has made about $20,000; the highest-selling, about $160,000. The overall average is about $95,000/book. I haven't had any true flops, but that figure isn't enough to make traditional publishers, for example, fall out of their chairs and start tossing money at me.


I had an agent (who contacted me via a comment on my blog--he didn't even message on FB) tell me traditional publishers wouldn't be interested bc I had books that had moved less than 50k units.

I rolled my eyes. That guy does not understand indie publishing. I've made many conscious decisions to write books I knew wouldn't sell as much.

Then, there were others... that were less conscious decisions.

But it's not over until the book is unpublished.

My worst seller made less than $1k. My best made more than $200k. (That's revenue, ebook only. Not organized enough to know my audio or paperback numbers, but they aren't huge). I could easily tell you why the former sold so poorly and the latter sold so well. But that isn't nearly as true with my more "mid-range" sellers.

There is an average, sure, but there isn't an average book.


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## schttrj (Jul 26, 2018)

Usedtoposthere said:


> There is a highlighted area of posts at the top of the site. One of them is called "*FAQs and Tips for Using the Writers' Cafe" *or something similar. It includes all the most helpful marketing and success story threads from writers like Elle Casey and Russell Blake. My own thread is up there, too, titled "What Worked for Me." It is very, very basic, like Square-One basic, but it is there if somebody is looking for basic.
> 
> The answer to your question is that each book has made me, on average, $1335 per month (ETA: had an extra zero in there! I wish!) My full earnings divided by the number of books I have written (26), over 72 months. All the books are in audio, and six are in German translation, so that figure includes those versions. The lowest-selling book has made about $20,000; the highest-selling, about $160,000. The overall average is about $95,000/book. I haven't had any true flops, but that figure isn't enough to make traditional publishers, for example, fall out of their chairs and start tossing money at me.
> 
> ...


Such an informative post! Thank you. And yes, although as you said earlier, your case might be rare, I will not go with your example. Focusing on churning out a quality book first.



Crystal_ said:


> I had an agent (who contacted me via a comment on my blog--he didn't even message on FB) tell me traditional publishers wouldn't be interested bc I had books that had moved less than 50k units.
> 
> I rolled my eyes. That guy does not understand indie publishing. I've made many conscious decisions to write books I knew wouldn't sell as much.
> 
> ...


I think you are very successful. I only wish if I could reach a fraction of that at least, hehe.



Usedtoposthere said:


> Some authors struggle and some don't. I don't, personally, and never have (except with fear of disappointing people). That doesn't mean anything, and neither does your process, as long as you CAN write the book and it turns out well. If you're at 3,000 words and don't have a clue how to structure your book, though, you will probably have to take a more cerebral, less instinctive approach.


Yes, creating the outline first. It's hard in a sense since it's like watching the whole movie in my head at once.



TinyChickadee said:


> I would actually suggest going back to your plot. 99% of writing problems (in my opinion) relate back to a poorly formed plot. If you know where you're going and how you're going to get there (via a well fleshed out pot) then it's not hard at all to write.


One noob question, what would you say is the best way to create an outline? By scenes? Let's say, I start with the three-act structure with the plots points. Then, as per the snowflake method, flesh that out further with scenes?


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## DrewMcGunn (Jul 6, 2017)

I write for the joy of writing. Around 18 months ago, during a lull in my work, I starting writing a series of posts on a genre-specific forum. I was having fun creating the plot that became my first novel. The story consumed me. If I was driving to work, I was thinking about my current chapter. No doubt I drove my wife crazy as I explained the plot to her. Eventually, I took it, rewrote it and published it.

Since then, I've published three more books in the series. I've sold a bit more than 7,000 books. I might crack 10 or 12,000 by December. Funny thing is, this puts me somewhere in the top 3 or 4% of writers currently. But I'm not going to be quitting my day job any time soon, but it did pay for a vacation this fall, as well as some bills.

I've found some humor in Shayne's comments, because when I hit the publish button, my "walter mitty" went into overdrive, dreaming about beating out Steven King (or in my genre, Harry Turtledove). Hey, the dreams are fun, but they're not overly helpful unless I use them to fuel the development of my craft. As I am now writing book 5, I'm spending a lot more time developing my craft than I did on book 1. My goal is to become a better story teller, purging the extraneous elements that amateurs think are necessary but professionals have learned adds bloat to the book.

I echo what others have said, you can't know what to expect until you craft your first book and put it out there. I agree with those who have also said to write what you're passionate about.  If you're passionate about romance then that's where I'd focus if I were you. But if you're trying to think strategically, but don't fully understand or enjoy the genre, it can be very hard to craft a story that resonates with readers. I write in alternate history. It's been my favorite genre for years. what inspired me was the lack of good stories in the genre. Apart from a few authors most of the stuff I found wasn't very good or asked for too great a suspension of disbelief. To my mind, that meant there was room for my story. But I knew the genre, the tropes and expectations and, if I do say so myself, I'm a very thorough researcher, which is a requirement in my genre for success. For what it's worth, I think you should be familiar with the genre in which you decide to write.

You asked a question about outlining. There are probably as many ways to do it as there are writers. But because mine is "historical" I use a spreadsheet with a long line of dates, and I outline based upon what I want to have happen in a certain order. I fell into this process after trying a more traditional outline because it was too hard for me to keep tract chronologically what was happening. But to each their own.


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