# Pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read - KDP



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I sent the email below and received the following reply.

Dear KDP.
Please read this carefully before sending a canned reply.
A reader on Amazon.com, using a Kindle Fire HD (approx. one year old) downloaded a copy of my book Something to Read on the Plane through the KU programme on 19th June. She read the front matter of 4 pages in regular mode and then immediately changed to page flip mode to read a further 25 pages. The 4 pages have been credited to my account, but 72 hours later there is no sign of the other 25 pages even though all the pages were read at the same time with the device switched on.
Why weren't the pages read in page flip mode credited to my account? I am concerned that I am losing credits if readers are using page flip
Thank you.

_Hello,

I apologize for the inconvenience you have experienced.

Upon careful research, I can see that for your book "Something to Read on the Plane" has the follow KENPC page reads starting from June 19.

June 19 (Amazon.com) -4 page reads
June 20(Amazon.co.uk)-11 page reads
June 21(Amazon.co.uk)-91 page reads

*I am sorry to inform that the pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read.*

We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely. As intended, we're seeing that customers use Page Flip to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving their place.

I appreciate your understanding on this regards.

Thanks for using Amazon KDP._

So, now we have a definitive answer to lost page reads.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Holy cow. They finally admitted it. I bet whoever wrote you that answer will be out of a job today.

"We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely." --If Page Flip prevents them from *seeing* the pages read while in Page Flip mode, OF COURSE they wouldn't "see" all the pages read in Page Flip mode. What a total crock. I'm pretty sure Page Flip was eating 50% of my page reads before I finally gave up and left KU. Other authors have reported 75%. Total ... okay, I guess I can't use the colorful language that would fit here perfectly. So I'll settle for... AMAZON: IF YOU ARE GOING TO CHEAT US OUT OF PAGE READS HOW ABOUT PUTTING A NOTE ABOUT THAT ON YOUR KDP PAGE WARNING AUTHORS YOU DON'T _REALLY_ PAY FOR PAGE READS?

I'm thinking of sending them an email that while they designed a feature so they wouldn't see page reads (and therefore wouldn't have to pay for them) I could statistically see my missing page reads pretty clearly and I would like to be paid thank you. Maybe we should all send in such emails.

Amazon's contract with us says they will pay for page reads. They have finally admitted they don't. They owe us money.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Perhaps they "do not see" people reading in page flip mode because they are not looking.

Good to finally have a definitive answer from Amazon, though. Don't usually get those!


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## Forgettable (Oct 16, 2015)

.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

This is not news. They've always been quite clear that pages read in page flip don't count.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

The closest I've ever seen them admit to it before was their statement that Page Flip didn't "materially affect" authors. Personally I have never before seen anything where they _clearly stated_ pages read in Page Flip are not counted. No matter. The point is that KDP has a contractual obligation to pay us for page reads read in KU and they are now _clearly_ saying that they don't.


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## stephangeorge (Mar 14, 2018)

Why would any one read a book in page flip mode? I tried and find it very annoying (as it's clearly not designed to for reading)...


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

stephangeorge said:


> Why would any one read a book in page flip mode? I tried and find it very annoying (as it's clearly not designed to for reading)...


I feel the same way. But apparently some do so. I really would be very surprised to find that it's more than a very small minority of the total number of kindle users/readers.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I feel the same way. But apparently some do so. I really would be very surprised to find that it's more than a very small minority of the total number of kindle users/readers.


I recall a similar thread where authors had reported that many readers were using page flip to read their ebooks.


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## Kaliharper (Jun 21, 2018)

I'd heard mention of this being the case before, but I always thought it was speculation. Nice to see a straight answer, or as straight as we can expect coming from Amazon.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Good thing it was only 25 pages.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Doglover said:


> Good thing it was only 25 pages.


That's just the ones I know about. There's no way of knowing how many more page reads have been lost - and that's the problem .


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> That's just the ones I know about. There's no way of knowing how many more page reads have been lost - and that's the problem .


When this subject was first broached, I sen an email to my entire list requesting that they not read in page flip mode, but I don't know how much notice they took. One lady thought I was asking her to read the paperback version, so I obviously didn't make myself clear!


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

It's not a bug it's a feature.

I can easily read in Page Flip on my 10" tablet that I use for reading Kindle books at home since the Kindle died. Unfortunately it does not fit in the handbag for work. Oh flip.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Acheknia said:


> It's news to most people that read somewhere that this had been fixed ages ago


As far as I'm aware it's never been fixed and never will be fixed because Amazon never intended people to read in page flip. Personally, I quite like reading in page flip, and I can't believe I'm the only one. But there you go. If people are reading KU books in page flip then the author will not get paid for it.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm thinking about filling out the online forms from both my State's Attorney General's Office ("The Consumer Protection Division of the Office of the Attorney General is the civil enforcement authority for violations of the Florida Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices Act. The Division protects consumers by pursuing individuals and entities that engage in unfair methods of competition or unconscionable, deceptive and unfair practices in trade or commerce. The Division also partners with other state attorneys general as well as state and federal agencies in joint enforcement efforts), and, the [federal] FTC. If enough past and present KU authors did that, maybe we would be paid.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt (Oct 31, 2016)

What is stupid is that software can tell if someone is sitting on a page for several seconds before moving on, thus implying a read and not a scan.  This can be fixed, SIMPLY, and IN SOFTWARE.  And, it's not rocket surgery.  Seriously.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> What is stupid is that software can tell if someone is sitting on a page for several seconds before moving on, thus implying a read and not a scan. This can be fixed, SIMPLY, and IN SOFTWARE. And, it's not rocket surgery. Seriously.


Why would Amazon want it fixed? Heck, they _designed _it.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Let's be honest here - this is Amazon and what does amazon use? Bots and Algos. I very much doubt they count a single page read at all. 

I should imagine they base page reads on sales, previous history of series or books, and those wonderful cliffs we all fall from. Glitches in the algo mean we get outlier days, up and down, and they throw us a bone or take one from us on occasion, but I can't believe that my page reads can tick along getting virtually the exact same reads for days and then start to fall as sales start to fall all on their own. 

What does the canned response say when we query low page reads? We've checked your history and we aren't seeing anything out of the norm with your pages.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

loraininflorida said:


> Why would Amazon want it fixed? Heck, they _designed _it.


To be fair, they probably weren't anticipating people doing their reading in page flip, but yes, I remember statements from two years ago in which Amazon reps said that Page Flip doesn't count pages read by design. If it were only used for people to quickly look things up and then return to the page they had been reading, that would one thing. That clearly isn't the case.

If I recall, Amazon added the feature in part because Google Play has a similar feature. Of course, Google doesn't have a subscription program that pays based on pages read, so the situation is entirely different.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Atlantisatheart said:


> Let's be honest here - this is Amazon and what does amazon use? Bots and Algos. I very much doubt they count a single page read at all.
> 
> I should imagine they base page reads on sales, previous history of series or books, and those wonderful cliffs we all fall from. Glitches in the algo mean we get outlier days, up and down, and they throw us a bone or take one from us on occasion, but I can't believe that my page reads can tick along getting virtually the exact same reads for days and then start to fall as sales start to fall all on their own.
> 
> What does the canned response say when we query low page reads? We've checked your history and we aren't seeing anything out of the norm with your pages.


We know Amazon doesn't really count pages because it became transparently obvious in the way scammers were working that Amazon was using the end point to calculate pages. However, I doubt Amazon is just inventing pages read based on sales figures and past history. My top-selling book is often not my top book in pages read, and sometimes sales move in one direction even as KU is moving in the other. Of course, there will be some correlation, but I think that's because a popular book will naturally draw both sales and borrows, and both are influenced by visibility. Less visibility will tend to equal fewer sales *and* fewer borrows. That doesn't mean Amazon is trying pages read from sales.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

Bill Hiatt said:


> We know Amazon doesn't really count pages because it became transparently obvious in the way scammers were working that Amazon was using the end point to calculate pages. However, I doubt Amazon is just inventing pages read based on sales figures and past history. My top-selling book is often not my top book in pages read, and sometimes sales move in one direction even as KU is moving in the other. Of course, there will be some correlation, but I think that's because a popular book will naturally draw both sales and borrows, and both are influenced by visibility. Less visibility will tend to equal fewer sales *and* fewer borrows. That doesn't mean Amazon is trying pages read from sales.


I don't know, Bill, my nose starts to twitch when I get three days, like last month, of exactly the same page reads in a row - 38,238 - 38,238 - 38,238, like it was stuck in a grove or pausing for thought, and just before my new release went live.

Coincidence, or just bad page reporting?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Atlantisatheart said:


> Let's be honest here - this is Amazon and what does amazon use? Bots and Algos. I very much doubt they count a single page read at all.


But the 4 pages read in regular mode did show up on my dashboard, so they are counting them.


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## Joseph M. Erhardt (Oct 31, 2016)

loraininflorida said:


> Why would Amazon want it fixed? Heck, they _designed _it.


Why would they fix it?

1) It's no coin out of their pocket. The monthly pool doesn't change, just the distribution of the monthly pool.
2) It generates goodwill among their writers.

Don't know if that's enough--we'll see.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

No one is going to lose their job for admitting it. It's been admitted since 2016
https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/article/KDPA1152?language=en



> Some authors have asked questions about Page Flip's usage not counting towards page counts. Page Flip is a navigational tool. By design, using it for navigation does not count toward pages read. We are monitoring Page Flip usage data and it is not being used for reading in any material way. We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilly_Frost said:


> But then why would Amazon run the ads that highlighted the page flip features and encouraged people to read using page flip? I remember a number of people saying that when they went to read the latest (at the time of their post) EL James book, the page flip ad came up. Telling authors nobody reads that way (even though our readers tell us they do) while openly encouraging customers to use it for reading seems rather duplicitous, to put it nicely.


For the same reason they designed a system that pays by the page, then designed software that 'by design' doesn't count pages. For the same reason they take back 50% of page reads based on 'bot activities,' blaming and punishing the author for things out of the author's control. For the same reason that all these decimated 'bot reads' being found somehow never makes a difference in the page rate. For the same reason their ToS basically says 'a page is what we say it is.' The same reason they constantly 'fix' the KENPC on books. For the same reason that their last announcement 'clarifying in more detail how we measure pages read' didn't clarify anything. (https://www.kdpcommunity.com/s/article/How-we-measure-pages-read?language=en)

Cause the system is rigged and the house always wins.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

loraininflorida said:


> Holy cow. They finally admitted it. I bet whoever wrote you that answer will be out of a job today.
> 
> "We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely." --If Page Flip prevents them from *seeing* the pages read while in Page Flip mode, OF COURSE they wouldn't "see" all the pages read in Page Flip mode. What a total crock. I'm pretty sure Page Flip was eating 50% of my page reads before I finally gave up and left KU. Other authors have reported 75%. Total ... okay, I guess I can't use the colorful language that would fit here perfectly. So I'll settle for... AMAZON: IF YOU ARE GOING TO CHEAT US OUT OF PAGE READS HOW ABOUT PUTTING A NOTE ABOUT THAT ON YOUR KDP PAGE WARNING AUTHORS YOU DON'T _REALLY_ PAY FOR PAGE READS?
> 
> ...


Of course it's a crock.



> We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature


Of course, their opinion of what a 'material amount' is and ours differ, as we'd kinda like to get paid for every page, but them? Meh. Ask Jan if she thinks getting paid for 4 out of 29 pages read is 'material.'

Notice that they never say that they can't see (and therefore pay) for pages read in page flip. They only say that they don't count for payment. They could pay us for them... but they won't.

From the response they gave to the OP:
"I am sorry to inform that the pages viewed in Page Flip mode do not count toward pages read."
They never say that they can't see/estimate/calculate it:



> We are monitoring Page Flip usage data


So they can see/count it- they just "do not count toward [payment]" cause:



> it is not being used for reading in any material way.


Hmmm, not material to them, anyway. But:



> We will continue to monitor for any changes in reader behavior.


So, there's that to comfort yourself with.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

Going Incognito said:


> For the same reason they designed a system that pays by the page, then designed software that 'by design' doesn't count pages. For the same reason they take back 50% of page reads based on 'bot activities,' blaming and punishing the author for things out of the author's control. For the same reason their ToS basically says 'a page is what we say it is.' The same reason they constantly 'fix' the KENPC on books. Cause the system is rigged and the house always wins.


This. It took awhile for this truth to sink in, but it's sunk now.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Oh, I forgot the best part. They're caught in a catch 22 of their own making. They can't fix page flip because if they do- people are right back to being able to skip thru the whole book again to get paid for flipping to the end without reading- the same loophole that they just supposedly fixed when being read _out_ of page flip. 
As soon as pages read in page flip mode do count? The flip ahead scammers are back.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> Page Flip is designed to make it easy to explore and navigate in books while automatically saving your place, and that is how customers are using it. We checked for effects on pages read before launching Page Flip, and investigated it again to re-confirm that there is no impact. We do not see any material reading volume happening within this feature, but we will continue to monitor it closely."


I love how anyone believes that things are used *only *the way the developer intended for them to be used.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilly_Frost said:


> I'm used to liars and cheats who pretend they aren't lying and cheating. Having someone just admit that's what they're doing right out in the open feels...kind of icky. Kinda makes me feel like I'm going to need some more Lysol wipes.


And right out in the open it is. (I snipped it, obviously)

1 Agreement Acceptance.
...If you don't accept the terms, you are not entitled to use the Program...

2 Agreement Amendment. 
...We reserve the right to change the terms of this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion...

2.3 KDP Select Fund. 
...We will set, in our discretion, the criteria for determining how much of your content is read and how to determine the proportionate allocation of the fund...



MyraScott said:


> I love how anyone believes that things are used *only *the way the developer intended for them to be used.


IKR? It's like they've never met 'people' before.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Joseph M. Erhardt said:


> Why would they fix it?
> 
> 1) It's no coin out of their pocket. The monthly pool doesn't change, just the distribution of the monthly pool.


IMO it _is _coin out of their pocket. If Amazon had to pay for 50% to 75% more page reads per month, out of their pool, they would almost certainly have to chip in more of their money in order to keep the page rate high enough to keep on attracting authors into KU. It is therefore very much to Amazon's financial benefit to not report all the actual page reads to us authors (and therefore not have to pay any more money into their pool on account of them).

It's all about the money. With corporations and so much else in life, it almost always is.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

There is ZERO accountability for Amazon with KU. With actual sales, they have to keep accurate records because they can get audited and end up in all kind of legal hot water if they get caught fudging the books. And it's relatively easy to track because there are records of the transactions with the end user and the payment processors. With KU Amazon can make up any numbers it likes and we have no choice but to believe them - even when we _know_ that they're just making sh*t up - because they are the only ones with the data.

Telling authors that you will pay them by pages read when your system _is not capable of determining the number of pages actually being read_ is black letter fraud, regardless of what it says in the TOS. Amazon gets away with it because they're Amazon and they can. We put up with it because they're Amazon, and that's where most of us get at least half of our money every month.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2018)

I would do my reading in page flip if it's a non-fiction book I use for research, and read only the chunks that are crucial to whatever it is I'm trying to learn. I can imagine a lot of very fast readers use this feature to read, or even to skip to scenes that are interesting to them (sex, murder, or whatever).
Not paying authors for page flips is a bit like not charging entrance fees at a museum if you skipped right to the Greek nudes.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Annelie said:


> Not paying authors for page flips is a bit like not charging entrance fees at a museum if you skipped right to the Greek nudes.


"Your margin is my opportunity." Jeff Beelzebezos

If Amazon can find a way to screw you to keep a few pennies for themselves, they will. Always. This is the same company that keeps the money from sales from known plagiarized works rather than returning it to the customer or giving it to the legitimate authors. This is the same company that uses the information from their 3rd party sellers' accounts to undercut them and drive them out of business. "Ethics" is a four-letter word to Amazon.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2018)

KelliWolfe said:


> If Amazon can find a way to screw you to keep a few pennies for themselves, they will. Always.


Yep. And it doesn't surprise me anymore. Amazon doesn't care much about anything but profit, but so do other large corporations. If I could, I would take my business elsewhere, but that's a luxury I can't afford. Hum... There are enough indies in this world to collectively move away from Amazon and start their own online shop. It could be HUGE, maybe even dominate the eBook market if done right. But I feel super old just thinking about the organisational effort LOL


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Wow, you guys are still acting shocked about this?

We discussed this same issue over a year ago. If you don't want to be taken advantage of you either go wide or find a way to protest this. But if you just keep acting shocked about what we've known for a long time that doesn't seem productive.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Herefortheride said:


> Wow, you guys are still acting shocked about this?
> 
> We discussed this same issue over a year ago. If you don't want to be taken advantage of you either go wide or find a way to protest this. But if you just keep acting shocked about what we've known for a long time that doesn't seem productive.


We did. However, there is currently a very long thread about the new bonus rules in which a highly ranked and profitable author keeps insisting that the page flip issue had been fixed.

In my mind that makes this discussion worth it, if only to ensure that people know if is still most certainly an issue.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

...this isn't new information. I wrote a long post about this back in September, and so far as I can tell it's still accurate. http://genedoucette.me/2017/09/kindle-unlimited-is-not-here-to-make-friends/


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Amazon has been clear for over a year that "Readers using page flip will not register page reads for KU."

They also insist "A very small percentage of readers use page flip to read books." 

Last year, we had dozens of authors reporting to KU on their readers that admitted they prefer reading in page flip mode. I read all books in page flip mode myself as I can make the text plenty big enough and it's easier to flip pages 

Amazon has decided to make it the company line that almost no one uses page flip no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. This is an attempt to define "pages read" in a more narrow way from what we can tell.

I would urge you to find out which of your readers use page flip and have them message Amazon on your behalf. Other than that, you could make youtube videos about how it doesn't seem fair to allow people to read "pages" of your book without paying for the "page reads".

I ducked out of that mess and have been happy with my gradual rise with wide sales. Making a lot more than I was from page reads but then again I have three books now.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Lilly_Frost said:


> It's more likely the author is successful enough that a new release rejuvenated sales to the extent that it no longer looked like page reads were being lost via page flip. When I updated the website/social media links in one of my books back in January before it came out of KU, I had someone check to make sure the updates had gone through. They checked out the copyright page and then swiped forward to the end to the updated thank you page and author bio, and only 3 page reads registered. Now in this instance, those 3 pages are the only ones I should have gotten paid for, but if he'd kept reading everything in between, I still would have only gotten credit for 3 pages.
> 
> It could be a simple demographic issue that makes some people think it's been fixed or isn't a problem. No doubt page flip is more popular in one age group than another, and so the genres that appeal more to that age group will lose more page reads as a result. So we have some people swearing it isn't a problem, and other people swearing that it's killed their reads. Just lots of swearing, generally.


This is true, but it could also depend on the device the reader is using. A larger tablet might be more comfortable to read in page flip mode.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2018)

Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem. 

This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> This is true, but it could also depend on the device the reader is using. A larger tablet might be more comfortable to read in page flip mode.


I sometimes read on an iPad Pro, the larger one, and the text on that in page flip is plenty big enough to read.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.
> 
> This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."


Dammit, Julie, don't give Amazon any more ideas!!!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I have replied to the KDP email in the OP and voiced our disgruntlement. I await their reply. Perhaps we need to escalate it to JB.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Avery342 said:


> We did. However, there is currently a very long thread about the new bonus rules in which a highly ranked and profitable author keeps insisting that the page flip issue had been fixed.
> 
> In my mind that makes this discussion worth it, if only to ensure that people know if is still most certainly an issue.


I haven't read most of that thread but I'm thinking that maybe they're confused? Supposedly flipping/jumping/slider-ing to the end of the book in regular mode on most devices (except the online reader) has been fixed for a while now, so that you now shouldn't be getting paid by not-reading, but if they're saying that pages read in page flip mode are now counting- that is incorrect and I'd love to know why they think it is 'fixed.'



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.
> 
> This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."


Yep, that's what finally drove me wide. If you say you're paying by pages read then design software that does not pay for entire books being read, that you force push to every possible device and advertise on tv and in 50 Shades, not allowing KU authors to have an option to disable the software that rips them off, on top of all their other crappy issues... that was this camel's final straw.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Any system that requires you to tell your readers that they must read in a certain way is a system authors should not be supporting. Period. Full stop. If you have to tell people, "Please don't use this tool Amazon gave you, because then Amazon won't pay me" that is a serious, fundamental problem.
> 
> This is wage theft. This is like if my employer said "Hey, we can see that you showed up for work today, but your manager clocked you in using Explorer browser instead of Chrome browser, and we only count hours logged in by Chrome browser, even though we can see what is clocked in through the Explorer browser just fine but since most managers don't use it we don't count it, so you aren't getting paid."


Julie,

In your opinion, what would it take for Amazon to take notice that they are in the wrong and cheating their authors?

Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2018)

Herefortheride said:


> *****,
> 
> In your opinion, what would it take for Amazon to take notice that they are in the wrong and cheating their authors?


This question assumes that being fair to authors is actually part of the equation. Amazon knows exactly what it is doing and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with it.



> Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?


The only thing Amazon understands is very public embarrassment. I suppose if you could get Trump to Tweet "Amazon stealing from authors. Very unfair!" that would get their attention. I'm not even being facetious at this point. The OP has written evidence that Amazon does not count page flips, and written evidence that readers do read through page flip. If that got magnified enough that the media picked up the story? I suspect that would force Amazon's hand. But Amazon has never corrected a problem merely because the problem needed to be corrected. It is only when a critical mass of negative publicity starts to boil over that they do anything.


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## Mercedes Vox (Jul 22, 2014)

Going Incognito said:


> Yep, that's what finally drove me wide. If you say you're paying by pages read then design software that does not pay for entire books being read, that you force push to every possible device and advertise on tv and in 50 Shades, not allowing KU authors to have an option to disable the software that rips them off, on top of all their other crappy issues... that was this camel's final straw.


That was my final straw too. After the advert pimping page-flip at the front of the second as-told-by-the-dude _Fifty Shades_ redux book, I started taking hard hits on all my M/F e-rom titles across several pen names. Sales stayed within norms, but the KU reads suddenly started circling the drain. That didn't seem coincidental. So, for one of my pen names that has a long-running series, I casually polled my readers about their use of page-flip. Roughly twenty percent didn't know what it was, forty percent said they mostly used their phones to read so they didn't use it, with the remaining forty percent saying they used page-flip with some regularly.

I won't presume to ask my readers to consume my work in a certain way (e.g., by asking that they not use page-flip), but I'll be damned if I'll offer my work in a place where I'm not getting compensated for its consumption.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I still don't understand why people think it's better in 'page flip' -- even on a larger screened tablet.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Herefortheride said:


> Do these authors have any recourse aside from what I did(leave KU)?


You can report unfair business practices to the FTC (they have an online form, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint), and, to your own state's Attorney General's office (most also have an online complaint form).


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## SuzyQ (Jun 22, 2017)

This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

I have an ipad mini and I sometimes like reading in pageflip mode. It's easier to turn the 'page' and it's much easier if I'm searching for something. However, I know the author won't get paid, so I make sure I put it back into the regular reading mode and wait before closing the book. I will also go back into it and make sure it is on the page I was just on so the author gets paid. Unfortunately, regular readers don't know this, so if they are reading in pageflip, they won't be careful to put the book back into reading mode and the author won't get paid. This has never been fixed regardless of what some authors have said. I still get 1 page reads every day and Amazon doesn't care. Nothing new there.

Also, I was reading my new release in regular mode and stopped at 25% to see how long it took the pages to show up. They showed up, then I did another 25% and those showed up. Two days later, I went back into the book to look at the rest of the pages. I got to the end of the book and just as I was closing it, the entire app closed. I thought that was weird, so I went back into it and the book had reverted to 50%. I waited several days to see if the pages showed up, and of course, they didn't. So several days later, I did it again and got to 100% and again the app closed by itself. Those pages never showed up, either. A few days later, I did it again and this time the app didn't close itself, and I got credit for the pages read. Makes you wonder how many times that happens.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

SuzyQ said:


> This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.


Where do they put it? I considered it, but assumed Amazon would demand it taken out.

I did a survey a year ago. 6% read in flip mode. 6% more dont leave flip mode if it engages accidentally. (About 250 respondents)

KDP have always maintained no-one reads using flip mode. Until someone gets a survey done in the tens of thousands, which reveals a real number of flip readers, they will continue to ignore the claims.

There was another bug behind flip, and they fixed that. I assume now I'm losing around 10% of my reads to flip, but I can live with that, hence not being a leader in this thread.

If you really want some action from Amazon - get a survey going, and get 10,000 people to state they read in page flip mode all the time, and another 10,000 saying they read part of the time. You'll need over a million people filling out the survey to get them. Amazon ignored my tiny survey. Do it big, or forget about getting Amazon to notice your complaints. Or get Trump to tweet it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TwistedTales said:


> Page flip on an iPad is good for skimming books. You can see two pages at once and the whole page you're skimming, which makes it easier to scan. With Page Flip i can easily skim a 250 - 300 page book in about 2 hours. You might wonder why I'd bother to read so fast, but truth is many books aren't that well written, so I'm skimming because it's not worth focussing on every word. If the book is good then I'll slow down because it's worth the time, but I still stay in Page Flip mode.


If the book is so bad you need to skim over to find some good bits, the author doesn't deserve to get paid. I skim over books with loads of description, but I still do it in the usual one page at a time way because my eyesight isn't that good. And once i've got it in pageflip, I very often can't get out of it.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> All that said, I am finding it increasingly impossible to source any books through Amazon. The search engine is deeply corrupted by miscategorization, the AMS ads are equally as irrelevant, and many of the reviews are utter BS. These days I'm finding BookBub a much better source. I get a customized daily email, I'm not a KU subscriber anyway, the books are discounted/free, and I can buy them through platforms other than Amazon, plus the Bookbub reviews have proven more reliable. Works for me far better than using Amazon's increasingly meaningless ads, searches and over or under egged reviews. This latest change is the nail in the coffin. Also-boughts were the last reliable search tool they offered and, for me at least, it's gone.


I agree with much of this. I used to bounce from book to book via also boughts, because they were generally relevant to the genre I was looking at. I read and write traditional Regencies, and you have no idea how difficult it is to find anything decent to read in that sub-genre. Also-boughts were a great way to find all sorts of obscure but wonderful authors.

Bookbub emails are not such a great success for me. I read the reviews pretty carefully, and it's horrifying how many Bookbub offerings have swathes of reviews complaining about poor editing and (in my genre) historical inaccuracies. Plus the same authors pop up time after time, and the same books, even. I'm looking for something new to me, I don't want more books by an author I've already tried.

Bah humbug! /curmudgeon mode


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

loraininflorida said:


> You can report unfair business practices to the FTC (they have an online form, https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint), and, to your own state's Attorney General's office (most also have an online complaint form).


In general, the FTC does not get involved in business-to-business transactions (which is what this would be). So I wouldn't count on any traction there. Impacted authors may get more traction by simply identifying a HuffPo blogger or some other high profile blogger that would be willing to publicly discuss this issue.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Let's say they fixed it. All that would happen if they fixed it is that they would have exactly the same fund,  with more page reads, and so the amount paid out per page would be less. So really, with the same fund, it would cost amazon nothing other than the programming to fix this. If it is possible, that is. Of course, if it were fixed, for the authors it would be more accurate, but some would gain and others lose out.

For the readers, it would make no difference. They will carry on reading in whatever mode they prefer, some paying exactly the same per month for reading 30 books as those who only read 5. Is that fair? Who knows?

Let's say 30% of readers use page flip. In that scenario we would be paid exactly the same for 3 books as we are now paid for 2 books with the same fund.  We would then have a thread on here of authors shouting out that 0.0030c cents per page was profiting on Amazon's part and it is time for all to leave KU. It is what it is and you either take part or you don't, warts and all.

I earned nothing to speak of prior to KU, now I earn something. Page reads also go some way to paying for AMS ads, if not all, to making a profit on individual books, If you use AMS, which as noted on other threads, these ads now have prominence on the sales page. These ads definitely increase page reads. Without that effect, I couldn't pay for the ads and have the visibility to garner sales that I otherwise wouldn't have.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

SuzyQ said:


> This started in the fall of 2016. Readers DO read in page flop mode. That is why some people put a notice in the front of their books.


Personally, I want my readers to do whatever gives them the best experience. If that means reading my books in Page Flip, I'm all for it.

I'm less concerned with getting _paid_ for reads than making sure my fans _enjoy_ the reads. These people end up joining my mailing list, buying my other books (many use KU as a way to "test" my books), leaving positive reviews, and telling their friends about me.

I see the Page Flip non-payment as a form of indirect advertising. I'm getting my books into the hands of more and more people. That leads to greater sales volume over the long run.


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## Lark Watson (Feb 2, 2017)

So their answer is "we're not stealing from enough people to worry about it" --


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Update on OP.

I compiled a reply to their email outlining my regret about non-payment of page flip reads and explained that author research has found that many readers use page flip to read their ebooks. 
I received this reply
_Hello,
Our Customer Service department didn't receive the e-mail message below. If you still need help, please visit one of the pages below so we can quickly provide you with additional information or give assistance via e-mail or phone._

I re-sent my reply and received the same reply from KDP.

I forwarded my reply to KDP support. Deafening silence - although they were quite prompt in replying to my first query.
I have sent it once again to KDP support. 
I will keep trying .


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Update on OP.
> 
> I compiled a reply to their email outlining my regret about non-payment of page flip reads and explained that author research has found that many readers use page flip to read their ebooks.
> I received this reply
> ...


The equivalent of Amazon sticking their fingers in their ears and singing, lalalalalalalala, I can't hear you! as loudly as possible.  Unfortunately, not at all surprising.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

A further reply to my query.

My query:
Dear KDP
Thank you for your detailed reply.
Author research on Facebook groups and writers' boards has proved that numerous readers use page flip to read ebooks, especially if they are using one of the larger tablets. 
How did Amazon do their research to say that "We do not see any material amount of reading happening within this feature" if they can't see the pages being read in flip mode? If they can see the number of pages read in flip mode then why aren't they paying authors for them? 
Many authors are feeling cheated out of their due income and are pulling out of KU. This is going to affect the readers, who will have fewer books to choose from and will look elsewhere for their reading matter. Could you please re-look at this feature, both from a reader's and a writer's perspective.

_Hello Janet,

Thank you for your reply. We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just don't have any more information to offer.

We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the buttons below to vote about your experience today.

Best regards,
Miranda Shelby
Amazon.com _

So, there you have it.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> We'd appreciate your feedback. Please use the buttons below to vote about your experience today.
> 
> Best regards,
> Miranda Shelby
> ...


So did you? Use the buttons? Can I vote with you? Lol. 
Hey, tomorrow is the 2 year anniversary of Page Flip, maybe they'll celebrate by updating the software to automatically take 50% of page reads back anytime someone... oh wait a minute... maybe that's why...?

(Sorry to tease, it's just that sarcasm is my first defense and we're staring at July as it looms closer and closer...)


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> _Thank you for your reply. We've looked at the data and can't find a systematic issue affecting your results. We apologize, but we just don't have any more information to offer.
> __Miranda Shelby_


This is why only a survey with more than 10k people on it, showing thousands use flip, is going to make any impression on them.

Interesting you got a surname. Maybe it was a real person.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Going Incognito said:


> So did you? Use the buttons? Can I vote with you? Lol.
> Hey, tomorrow is the 2 year anniversary of Page Flip, maybe they'll celebrate by updating the software to automatically take 50% of page reads back anytime someone... oh wait a minute... maybe that's why...?
> 
> (Sorry to tease, it's just that sarcasm is my first defense and we're staring at July as it looms closer and closer...)


Haven't replied yet. I'm girding my loins. Not that it will do much good .


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

loraininflorida said:


> The closest I've ever seen them admit to it before was their statement that Page Flip didn't "materially affect" authors. Personally I have never before seen anything where they _clearly stated_ pages read in Page Flip are not counted. No matter. The point is that KDP has a contractual obligation to pay us for page reads read in KU and they are now _clearly_ saying that they don't.


 ^^ Agreed.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Haven't replied yet. I'm girding my loins. Not that it will do much good .


So that's their story an' they're sticking to it.

From a legal perspective it doesn't matter if the problem is "systemic." The KDP contract says they will pay for page reads. They admit they don't if the pages read are read in Page Flip. How "systemic" the problem is, is irrelevant. If Jan didn't get paid pursuant to the terms of Amazon's KDP contract, that is Amazon breaching its contract with her. And because it was intentional and knowing, it dips its ugly little head into fraud.

Jan, you should consider just telling them that you contracted for payment with them based on your pages read, and so you demand to be paid based upon your pages read. Consider telling them exactly how many page reads you believe you were shafted and how much money you are demanding that they reimburse you for those page reads. In legal terms it's called a demand letter. Period.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

TimothyEllis said:


> This is why only a survey with more than 10k people on it, showing thousands use flip, is going to make any impression on them.
> 
> Interesting you got a surname. Maybe it was a real person.


Agreed. I think it will take a concerted effort from a number of influential authors before they do anything. I wonder if the trad publishers have noticed any page flip problems. It would be interesting if they did some testing themselves.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

loraininflorida said:


> So that's their story an' they're sticking to it.
> 
> From a legal perspective it doesn't matter if the problem is "systemic." The KDP contract says they will pay for page reads. They admit they don't if the pages read are read in Page Flip. How "systemic" the problem is, is irrelevant. If Jan didn't get paid pursuant to the terms of Amazon's KDP contract, that is Amazon breaching its contract with her. And because it was intentional and knowing, it dips its ugly little head into fraud.
> 
> Jan, you should consider just telling them that you contracted for payment with them based on your pages read, and so you demand to be paid based upon your pages read. Consider telling them exactly how many page reads you believe you were shafted and how much money you are demanding that they reimburse you for those page reads. In legal terms it's called a demand letter. Period.


We did all this a year ago. And I agree it's fraud. Except for one minor detail. The agreement to use KU gives Amazon the ability to define a page read any way they want to. And the moment flip came in, they defined a read as not being in flip mode.

The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads. If they are doing it, they have to at least make the effort to speed flip in normal mode. And dont forget, the scammers have people speed reading books using rows and rows of phones. Speeding it up just made it quicker for them, and Amazon closed that hole.



Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Agreed. I think it will take a concerted effort from a number of influential authors before they do anything. I wonder if the trad publishers have noticed any page flip problems. It would be interesting if they did some testing themselves.


I've not seen any evidence the trads have even noticed the issue.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

TimothyEllis said:


> We did all this a year ago. And I agree it's fraud. Except for one minor detail. The agreement to use KU gives Amazon the ability to define a page read any way they want to. And the moment flip came in, they defined a read as not being in flip mode.
> 
> The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads. If they are doing it, they have to at least make the effort to speed flip in normal mode. And dont forget, the scammers have people speed reading books using rows and rows of phones. Speeding it up just made it quicker for them, and Amazon closed that hole.
> 
> I've not seen any evidence the trads have even noticed the issue.


Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

GeneDoucette said:


> Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.


Oh yeah. I forgot that small snippet.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

GeneDoucette said:


> Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.


That sounds fair - not


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

stephangeorge said:


> Why would any one read a book in page flip mode? I tried and find it very annoying (as it's clearly not designed to for reading)...


I sat beside a lady on an airplane who was reading in page flip. I asked her how often she reads in that mode and she told me, "Always."


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> I sat beside a lady on an airplane who was reading in page flip. I asked her how often she reads in that mode and she told me, "Always."


The question is: How does one reach all those people with a survey?


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> That sounds fair - not


As much of a mess as KU is, I understand that part. There aren't many trads in KU anyway, but Amazon wants to make it as attractive as possible to them. However, the real reason is that the trads don't (generally) try to scam the system. KU1, prior to the pages read system, ran into trouble because of the flood of scamphlets, in which the trads did not participate.

Of course, most of us wouldn't scam the system either. Just another example of the scammers ruining it for everybody else.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Of course, most of us wouldn't scam the system either. Just another example of the scammers ruining it for everybody else.


Isn't that the case in most things . We used to enjoy a meal at a help-yourself buffet restaurant. Then people began sneaking food into their bags etc and the restaurant lost so much that they had to shut down the buffet area .


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## mike h (Dec 6, 2017)

GeneDoucette said:


> Trad pubs in KU aren't paid by the page.


What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?


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## Joseph M. Erhardt (Oct 31, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> ...
> The flip side, is no counting in flip mode is to stop scammers from speed reading a book to get paid for full reads.
> ...


As I posted earlier, it wouldn't take much code to determine how long a person is sitting on a page in Page-Flip mode before they move on, so bypassing this type of scam would be simple.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

mike h said:


> What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?


No, probably not. I'm not talking about anything that accesses KU via the KDP dashboard. I'm not saying there are a ton of trad pub books in KU, but for example, The Handmaid's Tale is in there. They have a different arrangement.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

GeneDoucette said:


> No, probably not. I'm not talking about anything that accesses KU via the KDP dashboard. I'm not saying there are a ton of trad pub books in KU, but for example, The Handmaid's Tale is in there. They have a different arrangement.


Yes and all of J.K. Rowlings' books.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

mike h said:


> What constitutes a trad pub? There are self pubs that go out of their way to appear as a trad pub. Is this a way around the self pub vs trad pub treatment difference? If self pubs ganged together into coops that are essentially trad pubs does this solve the difference? Is there a size that a trad pub must be to be defined as a trad pub?


Perhaps someone who actually runs a small publishing operation will chime in here. My impression is that Amazon special arrangements are for big trad pubs.

On another forum I did ask some questions of a person who runs a small publisher, and one thing I verified was that the Amazon publisher benefits such as extra categories don't accrue if the publisher uses a pass-through payment model. In other words, if writers get 100% of what their Amazon royalty would be, Amazon doesn't count that organization as a publisher, even if it performs some of the same functions. Don't coops generally operate that way? How many people would want to hand off some of their profits to a middleman in exchange for a system like KU1?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Perhaps someone who actually runs a small publishing operation will chime in here. My impression is that Amazon special arrangements are for big trad pubs.
> 
> On another forum I did ask some questions of a person who runs a small publisher, and one thing I verified was that the Amazon publisher benefits such as extra categories don't accrue if the publisher uses a pass-through payment model. In other words, if writers get 100% of what their Amazon royalty would be, Amazon doesn't count that organization as a publisher, even if it performs some of the same functions. Don't coops generally operate that way? How many people would want to hand off some of their profits to a middleman in exchange for a system like KU1?


Those big pubs can also be non-exclusive, which I'm pretty sure Amazon won't accept.


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?

If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.

Or am I missing something?


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

It's A Mystery said:


> Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?
> 
> If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


When 25 pages of my book were read in page flip I received nothing, irrespective of the size of the pot. Nuthin is still nuthin.


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> When 25 pages of my book were read in page flip I received nothing, irrespective of the size of the pot. Nuthin is still nuthin.


I guess if you have low page reads you may get caught as an unlucky one who's readers only use it. In which case I'm sorry!

Generally I'd imagine it evens out more than we think though.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

It's A Mystery said:


> Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?
> 
> If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Only if you assume that the payouts are actually determined by page reads. If, as many of us suspect, Amazon pulls the per-page rate straight out of their *ss every month to keep the rate more or less stable (within about a 5% month-to-month difference), then you're potentially losing 20% of the money you could be earning every month.


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## It&#039;s A Mystery (Mar 14, 2017)

KelliWolfe said:


> Only if you assume that the payouts are actually determined by page reads. If, as many of us suspect, Amazon pulls the per-page rate straight out of their *ss every month to keep the rate more or less stable (within about a 5% month-to-month difference), then you're potentially losing 20% of the money you could be earning every month.


I guess so, I just have no data to suggest they do or don't.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

It's A Mystery said:


> I guess if you have low page reads you may get caught as an unlucky one who's readers only use it. In which case I'm sorry!
> 
> Generally I'd imagine it evens out more than we think though.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'it evens out'. If a KU reader reads an entire book using page flip the writer doesn't get paid anything at all for that book. How can that 'even out'?


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## SomeoneElse (Jan 5, 2016)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'it evens out'. If a KU reader reads an entire book using page flip the writer doesn't get paid anything at all for that book. How can that 'even out'?


I think the 'evens out' argument assumes we all get approximately the same percent of readers reading in page flip mode, so we all lose the same amount. But then, because of the way the payout is calculated, we all get paid what we would anyway, with a higher amount per page. Obviously there are assumptions in there that may not hold - e.g. certain demographics of readers may be more likely to read in page flip mode.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

It's A Mystery said:


> Assuming an even spread of ku users use page flip to read... Wouldn't it mean that in general it makes no difference to payouts?
> 
> If 20% of my page reads are missed, then pretty much 20% of everyone else's are being missed and the overall pot goes up and everyone ends up with roughly the same.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


If Amazon paid us all for our page reads read in Page Flip, in order to keep the page rate high enough to keep attracting authors into KU, Amazon would be forced to put more of its money into the pot. Right now Amazon doesn't have to do that because with Page Flip, Amazon can give out KU authors' books to its KU readers for free. KU authors are effectively subsidizing the KU program so Amazon doesn't have to fund it wholly.

Note that when Jan pointed out to Amazon a specific number of page reads she had been cheated, Amazon did _not_ offer to reimburse her.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

LSMay said:


> I think the 'evens out' argument assumes we all get approximately the same percent of readers reading in page flip mode, so we all lose the same amount. But then, because of the way the payout is calculated, we all get paid what we would anyway, with a higher amount per page. Obviously there are assumptions in there that may not hold - e.g. certain demographics of readers may be more likely to read in page flip mode.


Do you mean that if 20% of the readers read in page flip mode then ALL the authors will be equally cheated out of 20% of their page flip earnings? Amazon will then be 20% page reads richer by not having to pay us out. This evens out rather well in Amazon's favour


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> Do you mean that if 20% of the readers read in page flip mode then ALL the authors will be equally cheated out of 20% of their page flip earnings? Amazon will then be 20% page reads richer by not having to pay us out. This evens out rather well in Amazon's favour


If the pool is static, and there are 20% fewer page reads, the 20% doesn't go to Amazon, it gets distributed. I understand the "Amazon makes the pages-read rate per month come out to what they want anyway, so this isn't true" argument, but just thinking "if i'm not getting the $ from pages read in page flip, Amazon is getting it" makes no sense.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

GeneDoucette said:


> If the pool is static, and there are 20% fewer page reads, the 20% doesn't go to Amazon, it gets distributed. I understand the "Amazon makes the pages-read rate per month come out to what they want anyway, so this isn't true" argument, but just thinking "if i'm not getting the $ from pages read in page flip, Amazon is getting it" makes no sense.


I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> Plus they cancel 50%++ page reads without justification, adjust KENPC without mentioning why or that they even did it, have 100% control over the data and pot so you never have enough information to know what's going on, AND whenever challenged they scream, "but the scammers made us".
> 
> KU is a sad state of affairs where Amazon hold all the data and control, plus they have an easy to target to blame for anything they do and why they can't tell you why they did it.


It's always about narrowing our margins in their favor. Tweak KENPC a couple of times, drop overall page reads by 20%. Add Page Flip and refuse to count those pages read and get another 20$. Reduce visibility and push people into AMS ads to claw back even more...

And don't forget that "delivery charge" on sales that literally no one else has.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?


KU operates on a fixed pool of money, which gets divvied out between all the pages read that month. Lots of pages read means a smaller per-page payout, fewer pages means a bigger per-page payout, but an author's individual share of the pool is still the same (in theory). So it doesn't matter whether you get lots of pages/smaller page value, or few pages/higher page vale, you should get the same amount of money (in theory). So long as pages read counted or not counted are distributed evenly over all authors, nobody loses (in theory).

This is why there is such outrage about KU scammers because they are taking a bigger slice of the KU pie, leaving less to be distributed amongst legit authors.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Except that there's no indication that it really works that way. The number of page reads can go up month-over-month but the per-page rate increase rather than decrease, and vice versa. And the page rate stays fairly stable within a margin of about +/-5% each month. Amazon makes the rate what it wants it to be based on whatever internal criteria they decide to use. For all we know they have a random number generator that goes from -5 to +5 which they run right before they announce the monthly rate. Knowing Amazon, they only reason they haven't simply gone to a flat per-page rate is to keep us off-balance and guessing about what they're going to do next, and if they decide to drop the rate significantly they've already laid the groundwork for us to expect something of the sort. Anxious vendors are more easily manipulated than secure ones.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm not sure I understand. If Amazon are not paying out for those pages doesn't that mean they are keeping the money that should have been paid out?


Let's look at the math. The assumption here is that everyone is losing page flip (PF) reads at the exact same amount.

So, let's say the pot for the month is $25 million. Without counting PF, there are 5 billion page reads total. Counting PF reads, there are 6 billion total.

5B page reads - no PF
$25M pot
.005 payout

6B page reads - with PF
$25M pot
.00417 payout

Now, let's say for every 100 non-PF pages read, there are 20 PF page reads.

100 page reads @ .005 w/o PF = 50 cents
120 page reads @ .00417 w/ PF = 50 cents

Now, if the actual number of pages read is more because PF reads aren't being counted, then Amazon should ethically adjust the pot up by, in this example, 17%. But there's no agreement in place that dictates how they must calculate the pot, just how they must distribute it. So, no, Amazon is not pocketing the extra money because they're distributing the pot each month. But yes, they are in ethical violation, imo, of not re-calculating the pot to account for PF reads.

And, of course, for authors who receive more than 50% of their reads in PF, then under the current system, those authors are not receiving their fair share, while other authors are receiving more.

But we still don't know what the percent is of folk who read in PF.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

PhoenixS said:


> Let's look at the math. The assumption here is that everyone is losing page flip (PF) reads at the exact same amount.
> 
> So, let's say the pot for the month is $25 million. Without counting PF, there are 5 billion page reads total. Counting PF reads, there are 6 billion total.
> 
> ...


Thanks. All I know is that I used to get about 5000 page reads per month and this month I got a mere 121 . Could be many reasons, but we'll never know (except for the 25 page flip pages that I know they DO owe me  )


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Aaronhodges (Dec 19, 2015)

They admitted this long ago, now someone just needs ot get around to putting together the class action suit...



Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I sent the email below and received the following reply.
> 
> Dear KDP.
> Please read this carefully before sending a canned reply.
> ...


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

Aaronhodges said:


> They admitted this long ago, now someone just needs ot get around to putting together the class action suit...


First, class actions are barred under the KDP contract. Second, you are not allowed to go to court, only arbitration.

"To begin an arbitration proceeding, you must send a letter requesting arbitration and describing your claim to our registered agent Corporation Service Company, 300 Deschutes Way SW, Suite 304, Tumwater, WA 98051, USA. The arbitration will be conducted by the American Arbitration Association (AAA) under its rules, including the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer-Related Disputes. The AAA's rules are available at www.adr.org or by calling 1-800-778-7879 (in the United States). Payment of all filing, administration and arbitrator fees will be governed by the AAA's rules. We will reimburse those fees for claims totaling less than $10,000 unless the arbitrator determines the claims are frivolous.... You and we each agree that any dispute resolution proceedings will be conducted only on an individual basis and not in a class, consolidated or representative action."

I wish someone would take the plunge, file an arbitration claim. It should be someone, like Jan, who can say in her claim that she tested out the Page Flip thing and saw precisely how many pages she was cheated.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

loraininflorida said:


> I wish someone would take the plunge, file an arbitration claim. It should be someone, like Jan, who can say in her claim that she tested out the Page Flip thing and saw precisely how many pages she was cheated.


But a few cents worth of loss would be judged frivolous.

The thing is, it's impossible to prove a major loss, large enough to be taken seriously.


_edited, PM if you have questions -- Ann_


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

loraininflorida said:


> First, class actions are barred under the KDP contract. Second, you are not allowed to go to court, only arbitration.
> 
> "To begin an arbitration proceeding, you must send a letter requesting arbitration and describing your claim to our registered agent Corporation Service Company, 300 Deschutes Way SW, Suite 304, Tumwater, WA 98051, USA. The arbitration will be conducted by the American Arbitration Association (AAA) under its rules, including the AAA's Supplementary Procedures for Consumer-Related Disputes. The AAA's rules are available at www.adr.org or by calling 1-800-778-7879 (in the United States). Payment of all filing, administration and arbitrator fees will be governed by the AAA's rules. We will reimburse those fees for claims totaling less than $10,000 unless the arbitrator determines the claims are frivolous.... You and we each agree that any dispute resolution proceedings will be conducted only on an individual basis and not in a class, consolidated or representative action."
> 
> I wish someone would take the plunge, file an arbitration claim. It should be someone, like Jan, who can say in her claim that she tested out the Page Flip thing and saw precisely how many pages she was cheated.


I'm in South Africa. I doubt if it would apply to someone outside the US. It would be easy for someone else in the US to test it. You just need a book that's had no page reads or borrows. I've sometimes had borrows, but no corresponding page reads, but readers can borrow and not read until months later. It just needs someone to test it.


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## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> I'm in South Africa. I doubt if it would apply to someone outside the US. It would be easy for someone else in the US to test it. You just need a book that's had no page reads or borrows. I've sometimes had borrows, but no corresponding page reads, but readers can borrow and not read until months later. It just needs someone to test it.


Its been tested umpteen times. Testing it achieves nothing. Proving pennies achieves nothing.

You need to be able to prove 2 things:

[list type=decimal]
[*]A large percentage of people use only page flip to read. Disproving what Amazon claim.
[*]That this constitutes a large enough dollar amount to be worth going to arbitration over.
[/list]

The first requires a survey in the hundreds of thousands, and a number who read in flip in the tens of thousands.

The second requires a figure of how many pages have been read using flip, but not counted.

Neither is possible. The first because getting that big a survey base will cost significant money to organize, and the second because at best, its going to be a guess, and no court or arbitration is going to accept a guess. And Amazon either dont have a figure, or wont provide one.

I still say getting Trump to tweet is easier.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

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