# So can we make Pluto a planet again?



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

From space.com: "Dwarf Planet Eris May Be Smaller Than Pluto After All"

Does this mean we can go back to our favorite MVEMJSUNP mnemonics?


----------



## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

YES! Let's Do... it was too hard to taking off the "P" after so many years!


----------



## D. Nathan Hilliard (Jun 5, 2010)

They should have just grandfathered Pluto in as a planet and avoided the whole stupid argument.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

D. Nathan Hilliard said:


> They should have just grandfathered Pluto in as a planet and avoided the whole stupid argument.


Right. Or call it a planette and move on.


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm mildly perturbed by the dwarf planet thing, but one of the writers on the subject who has Presented to a lot of people on the subject Says the irritation over Dwarf planet is proportional to age.  For people who grew up with Pluto as a planet, this is "an outrage".  For young kids, it is no big deal. This will die out over time as we old fogeys die off, and eventually everyone will wonder what the fuss was about.

By doing it this way, a zillion years of future students won't have to deal with why Pluto is an exception, and even better, scientists will get to be consistent, which they love!


----------



## Jon King (Sep 10, 2010)

Monique said:


> Right. Or call it a planette and move on.


Planella? Flash planet?


----------



## Alice Y. Yeh (Jul 14, 2010)

Science does this sort of thing all the time. Pandas aren't bears, our solar system is heliocentric, and the Earth is round, not flat 

Who knew? Part of me is highly irritated, but I'd rather be "correct" than not. What say you?


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Y. Yeh said:


> Science does this sort of thing all the time. Pandas aren't bears, our solar system is heliocentric, and the Earth is round, not flat
> 
> Who knew? Part of me is highly irritated, but I'd rather be "correct" than not. What say you?


I can remember being irritated as a young natural history geek to find that "legless lizards" weren't just classified as snakes so we could have done with it. When I got older and got into this stuff, I learned there are some significant differences in snakes and legless lizards when you look closely at them. So now I feel better about it! Scientists usually have a reason for what they do, but it isn't just one monolithic enterprise, and even scientists will disagree on some things. Arguing over classification, (which in some ways involves making arbitrary choices that could be defended either way) is particularly contentious.


----------



## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

This thread made me finally look up the definition of a dwarf planet. I figured it was just a difference in size, and wondered where they drew the line, but it's more than that....

They always knew that Pluto didn't behave like the other planets. Turns out they eventually found four more Pluto-like _things _ of similar size and behavior, and the choice was basically whether to add four more planets or to create a new category for all five of 'em. Now it makes sense.... sort of. (I think they should have come up with a better name than dwarf planets, though.)


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah but why did they name it after that dumb Disney dog?


----------



## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Because if they'd named it Donald, people would assume it had been named after that rich guy with the creepy hair.


----------



## Alice Y. Yeh (Jul 14, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Yeah but why did they name it after that dumb Disney dog?


Other way around. Pluto was named after the Roman version of Hades, God of the Underworld. Something to do with his being cold, distant, and apparently not a planet 

I don't see why old Walt decided to name the dog after a ruler of dead people, but okay.


----------



## Philip Chen (Aug 8, 2010)




----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Alice Y. Yeh said:


> I don't see why old Walt decided to name the dog after a ruler of dead people, but okay.


Maybe because Pluto is the only animal that can't talk.


----------



## caracara (May 23, 2010)

I agree that Pluto should get grandfathered in.
Then you can have a history lesson on why Pluto is a planet, and do that cross curriculum thing that schools love so much.
And everyone wins.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

caracara said:


> And everyone wins.


Except that poor dumb dog.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

What are the dwarf planets called? Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Doc, Happy, Bashful, and Grumpy?


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Known collectively as the Munchkins.


----------



## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

IMO. Pluto has been classified a planet far to long...it should be grandfathered in.


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> What are the dwarf planets called? Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Doc, Happy, Bashful, and Grumpy?


Well, the one that was _thought_ to be bigger than Pluto but now appears to be smaller was named "Eris", who appropriately was the Greek goddess of strife/discord.


----------



## ◄ Jess ► (Apr 21, 2010)

NogDog said:


> Well, the one that was _thought_ to be bigger than Pluto but now appears to be smaller was named "Eris", who appropriately was the Greek goddess of strife/discord.


What?! They changed the name from Xena?! Darn, I just googled it and apparently it was first (informally) named Xena before it got its permanent name. Darn, I thought that was so cool when I first heard it. I suppose Eris sounds more planet-like though.


----------



## LCEvans (Mar 29, 2009)

I still think of Pluto as a planet. I'm with those who want it grandfathered in. Pluto, are you listening? You have my vote.


----------



## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

Science teacher throwing my two cents in. I was glad when they made the designation of dwarf planets. Sorry, but Pluto never belonged in the group. If it had been discovered recently it would never have been considered a planet. And while there are only a few _name_d dwarf planets, there are many other objects that can fit in the category. Here's a pretty understandable page that discusses it:

http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/dwarfplanets/

As someone else mentioned, adults are way more bothered about this than kids. We've changed our mnemonic too - instead of My Very Excellent Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizzas, we have My Very Excellent Mother Just Sent Us Nachos.

I can't find the site but I had a picture of a planet display in Washington, D.C. or somewhere, right after the IAU booted Pluto out, and it was very funny, messages from the other planets saying how sorry they were... I did find this one:










So in my opinion, Pluto has had its day in the sun (okay that was awful, sorry).


----------



## lonestar (Feb 9, 2010)

Pluto will always be a planet to me.


----------



## ZankerH (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm really wondering. Are all you "PLUTO IS A PLANET!!!1" people just amateur astronomers with a sense of humour, or are you actually serious?  

The new IAU definition (actually, the _only_ definition, since prior to it there was no clear definition of the term "planet") is clearly superior to any grouping system used before it, and allows for much clearer categorisation of newly-discovered trans-Neptunian objects and even planets around stars other than the Sun. I'm sorry that people feel this strongly about what we decided to call a ball of rock and ice five billion kilometres away.

A much more serious question in astronomical nomenclature to me is the convention of naming objects after deities - Sol, the Milky Way, basically every planet and dwarf planet and several stars are named after mystical figures that they were thought to represent many millenia ago. It seems ridiculous to me that we should carry this burden of irrationality and mysticism in a pure, scientific field of endeavour.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

ZankerH said:


> A much more serious question in astronomical nomenclature to me is the convention of naming objects after deities - Sol, the Milky Way, basically every planet and dwarf planet and several stars are named after mystical figures that they were thought to represent many millenia ago. It seems ridiculous to me that we should carry this burden of irrationality and mysticism in a pure, scientific field of endeavour.


Wait, wait. Do you mean Pluto isn't a mute dog?


----------



## ZankerH (Oct 8, 2010)

Jeff said:


> Wait, wait. Do you mean Pluto isn't a mute dog?


The (dwarf) planet was supposedly named after the Roman god of the underworld/afterlife.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

That was a joke.


----------



## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

ZankerH said:


> I'm really wondering. Are all you "PLUTO IS A PLANET!!!1" people just amateur astronomers with a sense of humour, or are you actually serious?
> 
> The new IAU definition (actually, the _only_ definition, since prior to it there was no clear definition of the term "planet") is clearly superior to any grouping system used before it, and allows for much clearer categorisation of newly-discovered trans-Neptunian objects and even planets around stars other than the Sun. I'm sorry that people feel this strongly about what we decided to call a ball of rock and ice five billion kilometres away.


Most people aren't scientists and so no, they don't really care about the science behind it. I see by your profile that you list your age as 20, so you are proving my point that (older) adults get worked up by this and kids (or younger adults) don't. Worked up not in a "Let's march on Washington and get congress to pass a law making Pluto a planet again" way but in a "Another childhood icon bites the dust, say it isn't so" sort of way.

The real question is when will we see Pluto on VH1's Behind the Music series. "Pluto had it all, one of the nine planets, named after a god. Then came the drinking, the drugs, the trashing of hotel rooms, and the endless trips to rehab..."


----------



## ZankerH (Oct 8, 2010)

> That was a joke.


Sarcasm doesn't carry well over plaintext.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

ZankerH said:


> Sarcasm doesn't carry well over plaintext.


Sorry. It never occurred to me that your post could actually be a serious question and I thought I was responding in kind.


----------



## lonestar (Feb 9, 2010)

I stand by what I said- Pluto will always be a planet to me.  And I am not being sarcastic.

It is good to know that we are now PLUTO IS A PLANET people.  I feel comforted.


----------



## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

> The real question is when will we see Pluto on VH1's Behind the Music series. "Pluto had it all, one of the nine planets, named after a god. Then came the drinking, the drugs, the trashing of hotel rooms, and the endless trips to rehab..."


"Cowbell! I've gotta have more cowbell!"


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

The rejection of Pluto as a planet is indicative of our society, wanting to exclude anyone who is not "just like us." I say, let there be _more_ planets. No "dwarf planets," no "large Kuiper Belt objects,", no "orbitally challenged spheroids." Let's instead be inclusive, accepting, willing to join hands with those that dare to be eccentric: if it orbits the Sun (not another planet) and is big enough to be spherical, let it be a planet. The more, the merrier. And just think how much fun it will be in a couple generations when memorizing the mnemonic sentence for remember the order of the planets is about as challenging as memorizing the Gettysburg Address.


----------



## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

NogDog said:


> And just think how much fun it will be in a couple generations when memorizing the mnemonic sentence for remember the order of the planets is about as challenging as memorizing the Gettysburg Address.


Please have mercy on us poor science teachers!! I did get to do one of my fun things this week and rock some 4th grade worlds by explaining that the stars are actually out in the daytime. And next week I get to mess with the 8th graders minds and explain that because of the distance and the speed of light, looking at the stars is literally looking back in time. It's a good moment when you can actually impress a 14 year old. It's the little things...


----------



## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Any astrologers here?  What do they think about this?  Pluto rules the sign of Scorpio, which is my moon sign.  I haven't quite right since Pluto lost its planet status.


----------



## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

ZankerH said:


> I'm really wondering. Are all you "PLUTO IS A PLANET!!!1" people just amateur astronomers with a sense of humour, or are you actually serious?
> 
> The new IAU definition (actually, the _only_ definition, since prior to it there was no clear definition of the term "planet") is clearly superior to any grouping system used before it, and allows for much clearer categorisation of newly-discovered trans-Neptunian objects and even planets around stars other than the Sun. I'm sorry that people feel this strongly about what we decided to call a ball of rock and ice five billion kilometres away.
> 
> A much more serious question in astronomical nomenclature to me is the convention of naming objects after deities - Sol, the Milky Way, basically every planet and dwarf planet and several stars are named after mystical figures that they were thought to represent many millenia ago. It seems ridiculous to me that we should carry this burden of irrationality and mysticism in a pure, scientific field of endeavour.


I only have two words for you:

Try decaf.


----------



## traceya (Apr 26, 2010)

Dwarf, planet, Mickey's dog - it's kinda all the same to me.  Until they put it on the tourist list I'm not too worried about what they call it


----------



## Jon King (Sep 10, 2010)

This harmless little thread got ugly pretty quickly, didn't it?  

I personally think the new category is too useful not to use, since our planet count grows almost every day (what are we up to now, hundreds?), and in order to scale the system there must be layers of categorization, like the way animal and plant species are broken into genus, family, species, etc.  

And if we're going to use it everywhere else, we have to use in the Sol system first, since we understand it best.  Pluto never really fit the planet label very well anyway--it's not very round, its "moon" Charon is almost as big as Pluto itself, and it travels in a weirdly elliptical orbit that's more like a comet than a planet.  Hell, it's not even the 9th "planet" full-time...it crosses orbits with Neptune every few hundred years and Neptune becomes farther out.  Nostalgia is great for pop culture, but for things like history and science, I can easily dispense with it for better factual understanding.  

Though I have always had a problem with Pluto being unable to talk and being "owned" by Mickey, while Goofy gets the same rights as everyone else.  That's discrimination if I ever saw it.


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I did a search and found there are a surprising number of kindle books coming out about Pluto as a planet or dwarf planet!

Mike Brown, one of the discoverers of Eris, has a book to be released on December 7 entitled HOW I KILLED PLUTO AND WHY IT HAD IT COMING.

I preordered the book on the title alone!


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm about to go into the Dallas Science	and  Nature Museum to get my Geek on. I'll look for a Pluto display.


----------



## Annalog (Dec 28, 2008)

drenfrow said:


> ... As someone else mentioned, adults are way more bothered about this than kids. We've changed our mnemonic too - instead of My Very Excellent Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizzas, we have My Very Excellent Mother Just Sent Us Nachos. ...


The mnemonic I learned, back in 1966, was Mary's Violet Eyes Make John Sit Up Nights, Period. I did not have to change that one much to leave out Pluto. 

ETA: This thread brought back memories when, due to a relative of his being in my junior high science class, I heard our science teacher interviewed Clyde Tombaugh by phone.


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

Annalog said:


> The mnemonic I learned, back in 1966, was Mary's Violet Eyes Make John Sit Up Nights, Period. I did not have to change that one much to leave out Pluto.


Non-heretics learned Mary visits every Monday just stays until Noon, period. Again, an easy adaptation.


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I learned "Great big dogs fight animals" and "Every good boy does fine." Oops, sorry, wrong mnemonics.


----------



## john_a_karr (Jun 21, 2010)

We humans need to step up our space travel capabilities so we can check Pluto out for ourselves and judge whether it should be deemed a planet or not.


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

john_a_karr said:


> We humans need to step up our space travel capabilities so we can check Pluto out for ourselves and judge whether it should be deemed a planet or not.


The New Horizons spacecraft is due to reach Pluto in 2015. 

PS: Did you know that at this point Pluto is known to have 3 moons? Sounds like a planet to me.


----------



## Marguerite (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank you all for the laughs


----------



## Annalog (Dec 28, 2008)

NogDog, I learned it as "Every good boy deserves fudge."


----------



## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

Annalog said:


> NogDog, I learned it as "Every good boy deserves fudge."


I like that better.


----------



## drenfrow (Jan 27, 2010)

I know you all have been trying to remember the main levels of biological classification.  Well, worry no more!  King Phillip Can Order Five Good Sandwiches gives you Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and Species.  You're welcome. 

One I made up in college for myself to remember geologic periods was Carry out steak doesn't come pretty.  It doesn't make sense but I've never forgotten Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian.  I love mnemonics.


----------



## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

drenfrow said:


> I love mnemonics.


So share some more of them!


----------



## Lyndl (Apr 2, 2010)

ZankerH said:


> I'm really wondering. Are all you "PLUTO IS A PLANET!!!1" people just amateur astronomers with a sense of humour, or are you actually serious?  .


My husband is an amateur astronomer (we actually have our own Observatory)
He still calls Pluto a planet. That may, or may not, be a sentimental title but he's quite serious


----------



## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

purplepen79 said:


> Any astrologers here? What do they think about this? Pluto rules the sign of Scorpio, which is my moon sign. I haven't quite right since Pluto lost its planet status.


Astrologers know that Pluto is a planet and pay no attention to anyone who says otherwise. Don't forget that the moon is also considered a planet (which it actually is since it is too large to be a moon) astrologically speaking. A little known fact is that the earth and moon comprise a binary planetary system in which they orbit each other. Oh, but what do I know? I'm too old to make sense.


----------

