# Why so hard to get readers to even glance at a book?



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm honestly curious about this. If you post about what you believe is a high-quality read in a forum aimed at the specific genre, almost no one actually bothers to look at the book. I would have thought that people who enjoy sci-fi would be honestly curious to see if a new sci-fi looks any good. Is it that they are numb to indie writers due to a general lack of high quality, or is it something else?


----------



## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

I think its the slush pile effect. When you have a to be read list a mile long, and hundreds of books being thrust at you daily if you allow it, its hard for one book to stand out. There are just so many books out there and finding out which are worth reading is very hard, and I think a lot of kindle readers feel "marketed" to death.

It only takes a minute to glance at a book, but multiply that by the several hundred authors asking you to glance at their books, and suddenly you're talking hours


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

I read a lot of mystery -- but that doesn't mean that just because it's a mystery book I'm going to buy it. There's actually a lot of crap mystery out there -- and there are certain sorts that don't do it for me at all -- like cozies are mostly just ridiculous to me.

If it's an author I've never read before, I'm going to pay attention to what others have said. Anonymous reviewers, yes, somewhat, but probably I'll wait until I see it recommended by someone who's opinion I know and respect. That might be a friend or fellow kboards member, or a trusted reviewer in the press. At this point, I almost never just buy something the first time I see it -- unless it's an author I know and a book I've been waiting for. Heck, I'll pre-order those if possible!

But stuff that's recommended on the Zon -- I just slide right past. Even books recommended in threads here I'll just make a mental note the first time or two. When I see a book recommended often enough that I'm saying to myself, "hmmm, maybe there really is something to this" then maybe I'll click through.

And, if it's an author pushing their own book, I'm not likely to give it a second glance because I can't trust the source of the recommendation. Of _course_ you think it's good. I'm not the only one who finds it annoying, either, which is why we have the prohibition here on kboards against self-promotion except in the Book Bazaar. 

But, the fact is, I have enough new stuff to read to last me probably the rest of my life even if I never buy another book.  So, no, I'm not going to pick up something just because it's 'in the zone', I'm only going to buy it if it really 'speaks' to me as something I think I'll really enjoy.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I read a lot of mystery -- but that doesn't mean that just because it's a mystery book I'm going to buy it. There's actually a lot of crap mystery out there -- and there are certain sorts that don't do it for me at all -- like cozies are mostly just ridiculous to me.
> 
> If it's an author I've never read before, I'm going to pay attention to what others have said. Anonymous reviewers, yes, somewhat, but probably I'll wait until I see it recommended by someone who's opinion I know and respect. That might be a friend or fellow kboards member, or a trusted reviewer in the press. At this point, I almost never just buy something the first time I see it -- unless it's an author I know and a book I've been waiting for. Heck, I'll pre-order those if possible!
> 
> ...


Yes, I get all that, but I didn't mean buying so much as just taking a glance at things to see if something is that one in a thousand gem that's different from the slush. I've glanced at a lot of mediocre to crappy stuff while searching for those gems, but I love sci-fi so I tend to look. I just find it odd to restrict promotion to one forum that is generally ignored (a post some days ago with only four clicks, and I believe the forum registered me as one of them).

Yes, I know what we all think, but the thing is, there are some hidden indie gems out there, and if no one bothers to notice then it's sad...I'd rather read a brilliant discovery than another decent but average novel.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted Cross said:


> Yes, I get all that, but I didn't mean buying so much as just taking a glance at things to see if something is that one in a thousand gem that's different from the slush. I've glanced at a lot of mediocre to crappy stuff while searching for those gems, but I love sci-fi so I tend to look. I just find it odd to restrict promotion to one forum that is generally ignored (a post some days ago with only four clicks, and I believe the forum registered me as one of them).


Well, as Chad pointed out, it might only take a minute to check out one book, but with all the books available, if you check them all out, you'll never do anything else! So each person has to work out a vetting system that works for them. For me, if you're recommending your own book, I'm probably not looking -- unless you're an author I already know and read. And, as I said, I almost never check out a book on first recommendation -- I wait for several others. And if I know you don't read what I read (reader bars are great here  ) then I probably won't anyway. Example: I won't look at anything Oprah recommends because our tastes don't intersect even a micro millimeter.



> Yes, I know what we all think, but the thing is, there are some hidden indie gems out there, and if no one bothers to notice then it's sad...I'd rather read a brilliant discovery than another decent but average novel.


Me too. Which is why I buy, generally, authors I already know well, or one who comes highly recommended to my from trusted sources. Not ones that just come up in a scroll on a FB feed or Zon reco list.

To clarify: I have a number of preferred authors who started out indie. In the last 6 years. Off the top of my head: Michael R. Hicks, Ed Patterson, Boyd Morrison. I didn't buy their books initially because they advertised them here. I bought them because other readers said, "Hey, these books are really good!"


----------



## The Hooded Claw (Oct 12, 2009)

As has been said, surfeit of opportunity (sounds much classier than "slush pile effect"). Even for true gems that may be out there (for this discussion, I'll assume they really are true gems), after reading for years my tastes are specialized enough that I have very specific likes that only a few people I know share, and recommendations from people who haven't proven themselves to be on that short list (about five people I can come up with) are usually ignored. I'm very unlikely to buy, let alone read any fiction if I haven't already read and enjoyed the author.

Like many others on KB, I already own more ebooks than I could read in the rest of my life, and I am skeptical of indy fiction in general because bad experiences with (lack of) editing. Off the top of my head, I've bought and finished books from four independent authors in my five years of Kindling, and even those that I like *all* have multiple editing errors I'd consider appalling in a book from a major publishing house. It means that independent writers have an even higher bar to cross for me.

This is not intended as a slam at indy authors. I'd love to do what they are doing, but I don't have the guts and drive to try. But I have to make best use of my reading time, which is more valuable to me than dollars.

And as Ann said, self-promotion from authors I don't already have experience reading is just babble "blah blah" like the adults in the old Peanuts TV specials. If you truly braved the process of writing, formatting, and publishing a book, then of course you believe in it and are emotionally committed to it. I'd be shocked if you didn't say great things about it.

You have picked a tough task that I didn't have the courage to even attempt, so I really do wish you well. But your question is a tough one that doesn't have an easy answer.


----------



## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Ted Cross said:


> I'm honestly curious about this. If you post about what you believe is a high-quality read in a forum aimed at the specific genre, almost no one actually bothers to look at the book. I would have thought that people who enjoy sci-fi would be honestly curious to see if a new sci-fi looks any good. Is it that they are numb to indie writers due to a general lack of high quality, or is it something else?


In addition to all the things others here have said (and I LOVE hearing this kind of stuff from real readers) I think it just takes people seeing things a few times to actually notice it. Not everybody reads all of our e-mails, or all the posts on forums like this. I personally scan them, going back and forth depending on what I'm doing that day, or interested in. I really wonder how many sit waiting for new things to show up on the Book Bazaar? The old "rule" of marketing is that if you get a 2% return, you are doing very well. Those numbers are supposedly lower these days. Hang in there.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

One of the ways I notice authors here on kboards is through interaction with them.  Many only play in the Writer's Cafe, but many also come to the  rest of the board and interact with the other members as regular people and not promoters.  When I see an author who I recognize as a cyber friend, I start looking at their books - and from there, I start reading some of them if they write in genres I enjoy.  

I know that's a time-consuming activity for the authors as they could be writing more books or they could be discussing how to write better books, but it does work.  

There are several authors - mostly sci-fi and fantasy authors - who I can say, "Hey, I know him!".  I have authors I read because I met them here and some because I met them on Google+ but the effect is the same.  Daniel Arenson, David R. Burton, Theo Fenraven, Hugh Howey, TJ Klune - I started reading all of them through social media interaction.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't disagree with anything you all are saying. It's just tough to start over fresh on a new board where no one knows you. I never came here because I didn't own a Kindle until this past summer and I also had no idea I would end up an indie writer. I certainly never planned on it. I've spent the past eight years writing and doing what you do here, only on another writing board that has recently died. Heck, I mainly started the thread because I was looking for other interesting threads to join in on and couldn't really find much that suited my tastes (not knocking them; we just each have our own tastes), so I just went with the question that has been bothering me lately. I'm glad some people were willing to talk, because when you're new to a forum your posts tend to go by unnoticed other than the introduction one. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

For what it's worth, I tend to seek out SF/F from authors who aren't from North America or Western Europe simply because they often have different perspectives.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Geoffrey said:


> For what it's worth, I tend to seek out SF/F from authors who aren't from North America or Western Europe simply because they often have different perspectives.


I'm from the U.S., but my job has had me overseas for the most part since 1993. So I guess I have some differing perspectives while sharing some as well.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hi.  Resident kboard critic checking in.
What everyone else has said is correct and I want to add to it.  I talk to authors nearly every day. The thing is even I do not have the time to check out every book in the genres I read.  I don't even have the time to do all my friends justice.  Just yesterday,  I picked up 3 books that go on top of the pile.  So who gets read and who has to wait?
If a new author's book looks good I will grab it.  But please do not expect an instant read.  You will be lucky if I get to your book by September 2017.
Note I have a reputation for being honest.  One author even called me a splash of cold water.  
So if you would like,  I will take a look at your cover and blurb but there is a 99% chance, I will not buy your book.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

That would do it.  I live in the US but I travel overseas to work often and spend quite a bit of time in Europe and Asia.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Hi. Resident kboard critic checking in.
> What everyone else has said is correct and I want to add to it. I talk to authors nearly every day. The thing is even I do not have the time to check out every book in the genres I read. I don't even have the time to do all my friends justice. Just yesterday, I picked up 3 books that go on top of the pile. So who gets read and who has to wait?
> If a new author's book looks good I will grab it. But please do not expect an instant read. You will be lucky if I get to your book by September 2017.
> Note I have a reputation for being honest. One author even called me a splash of cold water.
> So if you would like, I will take a look at your cover and blurb but there is a 99% chance, I will not buy your book.


That would be kind of you. I do the same; I click on peoples' posts for books, as long as it seems at least mildly interesting to me, and yes, very few seem worth pursuing once I check them out. That doesn't necessarily mean they are poor writers; more often than not they are just choosing to write a story that means a lot to them but fails to pique my personal interests.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Geoffrey said:


> That would do it. I live in the US but I travel overseas to work often and spend quite a bit of time in Europe and Asia.


That's where I've spent the bulk of my time. I've visited other parts of the world, but I primarily work in Europe and Asia. I've lived in the US, Russia, Croatia, China, Iceland, Azerbaijan (twice), and Hungary.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Looked at your book.  Well first it is a pre-order.    Second I had to read the blurb twice for it to make sense.  Other than being set in the distant future,  your book sounds more like a thriller.  

In all honesty,  if I had run across it without talking to you, I would have closed the window the second I saw the pre-order button.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Looked at your book. Well first it is a pre-order. Second I had to read the blurb twice for it to make sense. Other than being set in the distant future, your book sounds more like a thriller.
> 
> In all honesty, if I had run across it without talking to you, I would have closed the window the second I saw the pre-order button.


Yes, it's a thriller, though of course it's sci-fi as well. I haven't published before, so I'm not aware of a stigma against pre-order status. It was just an option available when I did the publishing. I chose it because I was hoping the print edition could be completed to be published at the same time.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ted Cross said:


> Yes, it's a thriller, though of course it's sci-fi as well. I haven't published before, so I'm not aware of a stigma against pre-order status. It was just an option available when I did the publishing. I chose it because I was hoping the print edition could be completed to be published at the same time.


You are telling me here it is sci-fi. No need to answer here but other than the time frame, what makes it sci-fi? If you put it in that category, then you need to let potential readers know the why or how it fits in that category. 
Expand your blurb. And good luck.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

The blurb didn't bother me.  But then I read enough science fiction that I immediately got that it was a scifi thriller.  

But, we shouldn't be discussing the mechanics of the blurb here - that's more of a Writer's Cafe topic.  But, I think a conversation with readers about getting their attention can be a valid conversation out here.  One of the reasons we have the no self-promotion rule was that, early on, some authors would relate every conversation to their their book and it simply annoyed people.


----------



## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

great cover by the way


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Geoffrey said:


> The blurb didn't bother me. But then I read enough science fiction that I immediately got that it was a scifi thriller.


I don't disagree with cinisajoy, and I'll never claim to be good at writing blurbs. I considered lots of approaches to the blurb, and I'm still not fully happy with it, but I chose not to go into the technology aspect too much because the technology is just part of the world as it stands at that point, while the story is what I covered in the existing blurb. I felt that going into background tech stuff would only distract from the story. It's like a modern day story--if the story at it's most basic is about, say, three teens on their summer break, for me it's difficult to say I need to also mention cell phones and the internet and such current tech if that isn't what the story is about. But like I said, blurbs aren't my strength, so I keep what everyone says in mind and let it simmer.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Chad Winters said:


> great cover by the way


I appreciate that. The artist was wonderful to work with and nailed my vision for the pyramid and hotel mafia base. I wasn't sure he should include the flurries of poplar seeds since I worried it would make the scene too busy, but in the end we both liked it.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Interesting.  I read more thrillers than sci-fi.  It does sound like a book I would be interested in.


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> One of the ways I notice authors here on kboards is through interaction with them. Many only play in the Writer's Cafe, but many also come to the rest of the board and interact with the other members as regular people and not promoters. When I see an author who I recognize as a cyber friend, I start looking at their books - and from there, I start reading some of them if they write in genres I enjoy.
> 
> I know that's a time-consuming activity for the authors as they could be writing more books or they could be discussing how to write better books, but it does work.
> 
> There are several authors - mostly sci-fi and fantasy authors - who I can say, "Hey, I know him!". I have authors I read because I met them here and some because I met them on Google+ but the effect is the same. Daniel Arenson, David R. Burton, Theo Fenraven, Hugh Howey, TJ Klune - I started reading all of them through social media interaction.


I agree with every word of this, Geoffrey.



Geoffrey said:


> The blurb didn't bother me. But then I read enough science fiction that I immediately got that it was a scifi thriller.
> 
> But, we shouldn't be discussing the mechanics of the blurb here - that's more of a Writer's Cafe topic. But, I think a conversation with readers about getting their attention can be a valid conversation out here. One of the reasons we have the no self-promotion rule was that, early on, some authors would relate every conversation to their their book and it simply annoyed people.


I also agree with this and think this thread has gone way over a general, how do you notice books question to pure self-promotion.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

crebel said:


> I agree with every word of this, Geoffrey.
> 
> I also agree with this and think this thread has gone way over a general, how do you notice books question to pure self-promotion.


Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I was only chatting with the folks who were kind enough to talk with me. I'll drop it.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

cinisajoy said:


> Looked at your book. Well first it is a pre-order. Second I had to read the blurb twice for it to make sense. Other than being set in the distant future, your book sounds more like a thriller.
> 
> In all honesty, if I had run across it without talking to you, I would have closed the window the second I saw the pre-order button.





cinisajoy said:


> Hi. Resident kboard critic checking in.
> What everyone else has said is correct and I want to add to it. I talk to authors nearly every day. The thing is even I do not have the time to check out every book in the genres I read. I don't even have the time to do all my friends justice. Just yesterday, I picked up 3 books that go on top of the pile. So who gets read and who has to wait?
> If a new author's book looks good I will grab it. But please do not expect an instant read. You will be lucky if I get to your book by September 2017.
> Note I have a reputation for being honest. One author even called me a splash of cold water.
> So if you would like, I will take a look at your cover and blurb but there is a 99% chance, I will not buy your book.


But cin -- he's not even talking about that . . . .just how hard it is to even get a look-see. *In GENERAL* No need to tell him you don't expect to be interested even if you DO look. 

And . . . reminder . . . we're in the CORNER. . . so if you want an off line conversation about his book specifically, if you have suggestions that might help, that's fine. . . .but this is NOT the place to critique his cover or blurb or any thing else. (Especially as he did not _ask_ for such critique which, as Geoffrey observed, would be a topic for the WC.  )


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I said I probably wouldn't buy.  I didn't want to get his hopes up.
And I agree it is hard to get your book seen.
Forgot where I was.  Sorry Ann.


----------



## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Ted Cross said:


> Yes, I get all that, but I didn't mean buying so much as just taking a glance at things to see if something is that one in a thousand gem that's different from the slush. I've glanced at a lot of mediocre to crappy stuff while searching for those gems, but I love sci-fi so I tend to look. I just find it odd to restrict promotion to one forum that is generally ignored (a post some days ago with only four clicks, and I believe the forum registered me as one of them).


In my experience, most people don't like advertising and promotion, especially self promotion - that's why it's restricted to one forum and why most people don't even look there.



> Yes, I know what we all think, but the thing is, there are some hidden indie gems out there, and if no one bothers to notice then it's sad...I'd rather read a brilliant discovery than another decent but average novel.


Everyone has different opinions on what makes something a "gem" though and just because some random stranger/author on a forum says it's high quality, it doesn't mean I will agree. I like to find good reads on my own and if I want other people's opinion about it first, I will read the reviews for it on Amazon, Goodreads, or review blogs I trust. Posting on a forum, especially as an author - even if it's not your own books, it comes across as unsolicited promotion, aka spam.

It is hard to get a book even looked at - there are millions of books available out there and even people interested in a certain genre do not have the time to look at each and every book available in that genre. I hate to say it but... that's why authors with big publishers sell better. Not because they are always better authors but because their publisher has the money to promote them properly, rather than posting on a forum about it.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Sent the OP a message.


----------



## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

I went to your Amazon page and read the blurb. It sounded interesting to me, and I don't read that much science fiction or fantasy unless it's short stories. But Amazon hasn't put your "Look Inside the Book" thing there yet (that'll come) so I couldn't read the sample.  Once that gets on there, you'll probably get more feedback. 

And FWIW, I'm fairly new here, too. But I like to yack it up, so didn't have a hard time jumping in. With all the stuff discussed here, you're bound to find something to talk about.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks -- again, the Book Corner is really not the right place to discuss specifics or provide feedback. 

Ted, if you're looking for ideas on how to promote or specific suggestions for improving YOUR visibility, ask over in the Writers' Cafe. Lots of very experienced folks there can give you some ideas. . . . . .


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> I said I probably wouldn't buy. I didn't want to get his hopes up.
> And I agree it is hard to get your book seen.
> Forgot where I was. Sorry Ann.


Yes, I apologize, too. I just get swept up in the general direction of conversation, plus I'm coming from eight years spent on a board where it was the norm to have threads go off on tangents. I have to get used to a new atmosphere here.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted--

it's not that we don't like tangents or don't allow them; just the issue of self promotion is a sensitive one here in the Book Corner.  When a lot of authors first started coming to kboards (which started as a board for Kindle owners--the Writers' Café was a later addition), they tended to come to the Book Corner and work their books into every conversation, so we had to ban self promotion/discussion of one's own books from the Book Corner.  So that's kind of the one tangent not allowed here. 

You'll get the feel for it!

Betsy


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ted--
> 
> it's not that we don't like tangents or don't allow them; just the issue of self promotion is a sensitive one here in the Book Corner. When a lot of authors first started coming to kboards (which started as a board for Kindle owners--the Writers' Cafe was a later addition), they tended to come to the Book Corner and work their books into every conversation, so we had to ban self promotion/discussion of one's own books from the Book Corner. So that's kind of the one tangent not allowed here.
> 
> ...


I totally get that, and as soon as it was first mentioned I realized the way it looked and felt bad. I just like to be friendly and respond to what people are saying. Here I'll have to monitor myself more carefully.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted Cross said:


> I totally get that, and as soon as it was first mentioned I realized the way it looked and felt bad. I just like to be friendly and respond to what people are saying. Here I'll have to monitor myself more carefully.


It's kind of natural to want to talk about the things you're passionate about. We appreciate your willingness to learn the culture here!

Betsy


----------



## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Ted Cross said:


> I totally get that, and as soon as it was first mentioned I realized the way it looked and felt bad. I just like to be friendly and respond to what people are saying. Here I'll have to monitor myself more carefully.


Friendly is great! I hope my comments didn't make you feel unwelcome. Good to have you here at KBoards.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

crebel said:


> Friendly is great! I hope my comments didn't make you feel unwelcome. Good to have you here at KBoards.


Thanks. You were correct to point it out. I was just oblivious to that aspect of the conversation at the time.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted, if you've not done so, you should start a promo thread in the Book Bazaar. . . . and when it's live (vs pre-order) let us know there as well.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Ted, if you've not done so, you should start a promo thread in the Book Bazaar. . . . and when it's live (vs pre-order) let us know there as well.


I have it there, though I'm trying to obey the once per week rule


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted Cross said:


> I have it there, though I'm trying to obey the once per week rule


Yes, please. 

Though . . . as the current 'last post' is Betsy's you can post any time you want. It's just back to back posts that can't be closer than 7 days.


----------



## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I found the info about pre-order interesting (seems people don't care for it or would click away).  Glad for that tangent.  ; 

I used to click on books more often than I do now.  I'm on a lot of book forums and am constantly inundated with book covers, blurbs, discussions.  In order for me to click, it has to be a day when I'm procrastinating some dreaded task or when I'm mindlessly looking through threads/conversations and something catches my eye.  

There are certain genres that will catch my attention more so than others--but that's also a moving target.  Sometimes I'm really into humorous mysteries and if I see a "likely" cover, I might click and read the blurb.  A lot of times I'm in the mood for urban fantasy.  But many of those covers don't agree with me, so I may or may not click.  Getting me to buy is a whole 'nother batch of odds.  

There's no one right way to 'market' or get attention.  Because not only is everyone different, every DAY is different!


----------



## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

I check in at Kboards intermittently but am a member of half a dozen writer and author email lists, AND as a blogger I get "pitches" from pr folks flogging their clients' books as well. Just...tooo....much. As others have said, it has to really stand out, or be recommended (or written) by someone I respect for it to catch my attention.

I love to discover new work. But time is the one thing I now jealously guard. In fact, I'm feeling guilty about writing a reply here when I should be pushing through to my next 4 article deadlines, yikes!

Honestly, the best way to be "discovered" is to write more books, and the small-ish handful who read the first one and like it will seek out your others and recommend and and and...voila!


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

It's always fascinating to get the reader's perspective on the book buying impulse/decision. And, yes, to the endless supply of new books becoming...burdensome.    My kindle is full to bursting. 

As a writer and reader I can't help but notice the paradox: Many (most) writers intensely dislike what they see as the constant need to promote or die, while readers are bone weary and even repulsed by authors never- ending promoting. 

Indy writing/publishing is an upside down world where it's tough to get it right.


----------



## Marie Long (Jan 11, 2014)

I think these days, a good, eye-catching book cover is what's going to make readers stop and check out your book. That doesn't necessarily mean an instant buy, but at least you were able to get their attention.


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

From my perspective, the problem is too many books competing for my attention. If you aren't an author I've already read something by (and enjoyed it), then chances are pretty close to zero that I will look at the work. Rarely, I will get something because of someone else's recommendation, generally from a well-established mystery or sf genre blog. Even then, I frequently check it out on Goodreads.

Now that I think of it, I've been that way since I got out of my teens, when I read pretty much any mystery or sf that came along. That was in the 1950s/1960s though, and there was just less material to cope with. Nowadays, the threshold is much, much higher to get my attention.

Mike


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

jmiked said:


> From my perspective, the problem is too many things competing for my attention. If you aren't an author I've already read something by (and enjoyed it), then chances are pretty close to zero that I will look at the work. Rarely, I will get something because of someone else's recommendation, generally from a well-established mystery or sf genre blog. Even then, I frequently check it out on Goodreads.
> 
> Now that I think of it, I've been that way since I got out of my teens, when I read pretty much any mystery or sf that came along. That was in the 1950s/1960s though, and there was just less material to cope with. Nowadays, the threshold is much, much higher to get my attention.
> 
> Mike


This isn't a direct reply to Mike, I'm just completing the circle he started. Unlike Mike, I rarely read the same genre writers. Yet I fall pretty much in line with everything else he said. It's not like I have nothing to do and nothing to read.

All the same, there is a demographic that does peruse and read the latest things, always on the look-out for something unique-and cheap. I don't know how you find these people. I only know they exist because you can see the footprints they leave behind.


----------



## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm another reader who is often (most often) looking for new authors/books.  I'm *terrible* at sticking with series.  I read two or three and move on.  Sometimes YEARS later--and I mean YEARS, I will return to a series, but most of the time I don't.    I've read more than three of Janet Evanovich (but do wish I'd stopped at 8 ) and Ilona Andrews (but probably should have stopped at 4) and a few others.  I'm still reading Jacka Benedict (it might be Benedict Jacka, I get his name turned around) and I read all of Frank Tuttles books and I think that series is up to 7 or 8.  I'd read more John Levitt if he ever published more.  But.  You never know the day I'm going to be distracted by a pretty new cover.  And I still read all the authors above, but I tend to move to another series by them rather than stay with the same series.  For example, I read Patricia Briggs, but I stopped reading the Mercy Thompson series but am still reading the Alpha and Omega series (I have read all 4 and would still buy book 5, but I wouldn't be upset if she stopped writing the series and started another one, either).  

I love a fresh voice--Jana DeLeon writes the Miss Fortune series that I love, but after 4 books, I may not keep reading...I'm just not loyal.  I'm terrible.  

So I am on the lookout for fresh stories and fresh faces.  It's still very difficult to get my attention.

And there are books where I just WISH, WISH, WISH there were a second in the series - Aimee Gilchrist's Tell-tale Con series for example.  I'd scoop it up in a heartbeat...


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

MariaESchneider said:


> I'm another reader who is often (most often) looking for new authors/books. I'm *terrible* at sticking with series. I read two or three and move on. Sometimes YEARS later--and I mean YEARS, I will return to a series, but most of the time I don't. I've read more than three of Janet Evanovich (but do wish I'd stopped at 8 ) and Ilona Andrews (but probably should have stopped at 4) and a few others. I'm still reading Jacka Benedict (it might be Benedict Jacka, I get his name turned around) and I read all of Frank Tuttles books and I think that series is up to 7 or 8. I'd read more John Levitt if he ever published more. But. You never know the day I'm going to be distracted by a pretty new cover. And I still read all the authors above, but I tend to move to another series by them rather than stay with the same series. For example, I read Patricia Briggs, but I stopped reading the Mercy Thompson series but am still reading the Alpha and Omega series (I have read all 4 and would still buy book 5, but I wouldn't be upset if she stopped writing the series and started another one, either).
> 
> I love a fresh voice--Jana DeLeon writes the Miss Fortune series that I love, but after 4 books, I may not keep reading...I'm just not loyal. It's terrible.
> 
> ...


If I am picking a new book to read from my shelves and my choices are a stand-alone or a series, I usually pick the stand-alone these days even if both look great, simply because I have so little reading time that it's hard to commit to a whole series right now. I keep wanting to read the Malazan series, but there are so many books in it!

I'm with you on the great covers, which is why I invested so much in getting mine the way I wanted it.


----------



## Guest (Dec 4, 2014)

There are over a million books on Amazon. What, exactly, do you expect people to do, scroll through every single book on Amazon until they find yours?

If you want people to look at your book, you need to get it in front of their eyeballs. To get the book in front of their eyeballs, you need to do more than upload to Amazon and cross your fingers because THERE ARE OVER A MILLION BOOKS ON AMAZON! Needle, meet haystack. You have to promote your work. Readers can't consider your book if they don't know that it exists.

This question really should be in the Writer's Cafe, because ultimately it is a "how to promote" issue. 

I generally first learn about books from genre-specific sites I visit, ezines I read, and through friend recommendations. Once I am aware of a book, I will go check it out. I'd be lying if I said I didn't look at covers, because I do (truth be told, I'm a bit of a cover junkie and love a beautiful cover). But more important to me is reading the blurb and then the sample. If you don't grab me with the sample, I'm probably not going to buy. I read reviews, but generally only the ones that are coherent. I ignore all one sentence 5 STARS BEST BOOK EVER and one sentence 1 STAR THIS SUCKS. If there are reviews available that don't read like they were written by friends and relatives, then I read them for insight. 

But it isn't the reader's fault if they don't look at a book. The fault always lies with the publisher. Readers have an enormous pool of books to select from, and it is your job to rise to the top and get their attention...not the other way around.


----------



## Ted Cross (Aug 30, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> There are over a million books on Amazon. What, exactly, do you expect people to do, scroll through every single book on Amazon until they find yours?
> 
> If you want people to look at your book, you need to get it in front of their eyeballs. To get the book in front of their eyeballs, you need to do more than upload to Amazon and cross your fingers because THERE ARE OVER A MILLION BOOKS ON AMAZON! Needle, meet haystack. You have to promote your work. Readers can't consider your book if they don't know that it exists.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you, Julie, but I wasn't referring to Amazon really. I was talking about the fact that all blogs and boards aimed specifically at sci-fi fans generally ban or ignore the mention of new books by unknown authors, or relegate such mentions to dusty regions of the board where no one looks at anything (as is done here). I am aware that it is more than tiring to have to wade through oceans of spamming about new books, so I'm not suggesting I know a better way. I just found it odd how hard it was to get even specific fans of sci-fi to be willing to even look at a cover or blurb.


----------



## Guest (Dec 5, 2014)

Ted Cross said:


> I don't disagree with you, *****, but I wasn't referring to Amazon really. I was talking about the fact that all blogs and boards aimed specifically at sci-fi fans generally ban or ignore the mention of new books by unknown authors,


In the over ten years I have been involved in indie publishing, I have found this to be fundamentally UNTRUE.

What I have found, however, is that too often there is an inflated sense of entitlement in self-published authors who demand attention in a community before actually becoming a part of a community. Sci-fi, in fact, was an early adopter of the ebook format (along with romance/erotica). Those communities are certainly not against new authors. They are against "BUY MY BOOK" posts from people who only ever post "BUY MY BOOK" posts. If you walk into a new forum, ANY forum, looking at every member as a potential customer instead of a potential friend, you will end up feeling like you are being ignored. Because you WILL be ignored.

You should act in an internet community the same way you would in the real world. When I enter a room of strangers, my first instinct is never to hold up a placard that says "INDIE AUTHOR: ASK ME ABOUT MY AWESOME BOOKS". I try to get to know the others in the room first. It is the same thing in a forum. If general, if one of your first three posts on a forum is a promotional post, chances are you'll end up being ignored. Because you aren't taking the time to get to know the community and understand the nuances of its interaction.

The single best way to overcome the "unknown author" stigma on a forum: give the members time to get to know you.


----------



## mish (Jun 27, 2011)

Ted Cross said:


> ... I am aware that it is more than tiring to have to wade through oceans of spamming about new books, so I'm not suggesting I know a better way


I think you just answered your own question... 



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The single best way to overcome the "unknown author" stigma on a forum: give the members time to get to know you.


...and that would be the better way


----------



## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Actually it probably needs to be said--not all boards welcome authors.  I have come across blogs/forums where authors are specifically asked not to join.  I've even read one where the author stopped by when his book was being discussed--he tried to clarify a point because a question had been asked and was asked to leave.  So there are some places that simply don't want the interaction with authors, as people, readers or whatever.  It could be due to spam in the past or just because.  Since I usually don't stick around, it's impossible to say.

As for even glancing at a book, yup, there's lots and lots.  I do glance at books and blurbs quite frequently.  But I look a lot more than buy.


----------



## Daniel Harvell (Jun 21, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You should act in an internet community the same way you would in the real world. When I enter a room of strangers, my first instinct is never to hold up a placard that says "INDIE AUTHOR: ASK ME ABOUT MY AWESOME BOOKS". I try to get to know the others in the room first. It is the same thing in a forum. If general, if one of your first three posts on a forum is a promotional post, chances are you'll end up being ignored. Because you aren't taking the time to get to know the community and understand the nuances of its interaction.


You're absolutely right, Julie. I think writers (and many small business owners, in general) forget that online communities aren't their personal advertising billboards. If more people remembered to act online as they would in real life, many of these issues would never even arise. It's all about personal connections, and when you're interacting online, you have to be even more personable since it isn't a face-to-face interaction.


----------



## DuaneVore (Nov 28, 2013)

The Hooded Claw said:


> Like many others on KB, I already own more ebooks than I could read in the rest of my life, and I am skeptical of indy fiction in general because bad experiences with (lack of) editing. Off the top of my head, I've bought and finished books from four independent authors in my five years of Kindling, and even those that I like *all* have multiple editing errors I'd consider appalling in a book from a major publishing house. It means that independent writers have an even higher bar to cross for me.


Perhaps my experience has been unique, in that I have read works from indie authors in which I've found no errors. I'd also like to point out that I've bought e-books from traditional publishers, who obviously scanned them and didn't check results so well. I recall one that must have had 50 errors. Buying a traditionally published book is no longer a guarantee of error-free prose. That said, I used to be quite picky about errors, hate myself whenever I let a blog post go public with an error in it, and at the same time am becoming less concerned about others' errors. It may be that by self-publishing, I've learned just how difficult it is to catch all of them (not even professional editors are a guarantee of that), and by reading them, have come to realize that maybe errors aren't that important after all. An indie book that caused me to reconsider is Legacy Forgotten by Nicole Hill. I muse upon it here. Of the novel, I remember that the errors were legion, perhaps setting a new record, but I barely remember what they are. I do remember the story. It seems that a good story can trump bad editing. I've lost count of the indie books I've read, but I've liked them all, and absolutely loved some. Errors or not. I have yet to be disappointed by a story.

To address the intent of this thread, that's a question probably all indie writers are asking. For me, if the author is unknown (they all were at one time, you know), it's in this order: (1) Does the cover catch my attention? (2) Is the blurb appealing? (3) Are certain story elements I like present? The last of these is something of a gamble, and the second can be as well. If anyone can tell me HOW to make a cover appealing (hiring a professional here is no guarantee either; I retch at some I've seen), I would be eternally grateful.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

DuaneVore said:


> Perhaps my experience has been unique, in that I have read works from indie authors in which I've found no errors. I'd also like to point out that I've bought e-books from traditional publishers, who obviously scanned them and didn't check results so well. I recall one that must have had 50 errors. Buying a traditionally published book is no longer a guarantee of error-free prose. That said, I used to be quite picky about errors, hate myself whenever I let a blog post go public with an error in it, and at the same time am becoming less concerned about others' errors. It may be that by self-publishing, I've learned just how difficult it is to catch all of them (not even professional editors are a guarantee of that), and by reading them, have come to realize that maybe errors aren't that important after all. An indie book that caused me to reconsider is Legacy Forgotten by Nicole Hill. I muse upon it here. Of the novel, I remember that the errors were legion, perhaps setting a new record, but I barely remember what they are. I do remember the story. It seems that a good story can trump bad editing. I've lost count of the indie books I've read, but I've liked them all, and absolutely loved some. Errors or not. I have yet to be disappointed by a story.


I doubt the error rate is a decisive factor for many people, because it's not decisive in good writing. I'll take a well-written book with a few typos over an error-free but poorly written one any day.


----------



## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Errors, typos and poor writing are all concerns when I select and indie book.  

I don't mind the occasional typo - so long as they're occasional.  I don't even mind the occasional grammatical error - I'm not a grammar Nazi but I do expect a semblance of decent grammar.  I'm more picky with the misuse of homonyms - especially the commonplace ones like 'there/their/they're', etc.

poor writing is harder to get past.  There are some authors with the skill to write a decent book and have put in the hours to hone their trade.  There are many others who write a first book and publish it.  There are some who appear to write a first draft and publish it.    I will wade through indies to find the ones I think will be good reads and try those.  The ones I find acceptable I'll continue to read; the ones who don't cut it, I'll stop that book and they usually don't get a second chance.  I really don't have a different standard, though, in the quality I expect from an Indie author or from a traditionally published author.

I am a big enough book geek that I pay attention to publishers so I will also follow small and mid-sized publishing houses if I enjoy one or more books from their book lists ...


----------



## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't have much of a problem choosing books from indie writers… mostly because I read mysteries (traditional mysteries, as opposed to crime friction), hard science fiction, biographies, and science books. The number of indie writers in these genres is vanishingly small, close to non-existant.


Mike


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Geoffrey said:


> poor writing is harder to get past. There are some authors with the skill to write a decent book and have put in the hours to hone their trade. There are many others who write a first book and publish it. There are some who appear to write a first draft and publish it. I will wade through indies to find the ones I think will be good reads and try those. The ones I find acceptable I'll continue to read; the ones who don't cut it, I'll stop that book and they usually don't get a second chance. I really don't have a different standard, though, in the quality I expect from an Indie author or from a traditionally published author.


The other factor is genre expectations. The typical thriller reader, for example, expects tightly written prose that's been skinned to the bones. Even if he can't tell a noun from a verb, the person who's read a thousand thrillers instantly recognizes the style. If he doesn't see it in the sample, I suspect he moves on, never to return.

This is not to say you can't do something different. You probably can. But you'll have the current to fight, and you'll have to do something else that gets readers' attention.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I think being overwhelmed by choice is the main problem  . I recently went to choose some tiles for the bathroom. If I'd had 20 to choose from it would have been easy, but there seemed to be hundreds and I just walked out totally confused. However, at a recent book swap meeting there were about 30 paperbacks and it was easy to choose something suitable, or at least give it a try.


----------



## Chuck Habakkuk (Dec 12, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> In the over ten years I have been involved in indie publishing, I have found this to be fundamentally UNTRUE.
> 
> What I have found, however, is that too often there is an inflated sense of entitlement in self-published authors who demand attention in a community before actually becoming a part of a community. Sci-fi, in fact, was an early adopter of the ebook format (along with romance/erotica). Those communities are certainly not against new authors. They are against "BUY MY BOOK" posts from people who only ever post "BUY MY BOOK" posts. If you walk into a new forum, ANY forum, looking at every member as a potential customer instead of a potential friend, you will end up feeling like you are being ignored. Because you WILL be ignored.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would second this. It'd be like showing up at a book club in a church basement for one session, telling them about your book, and never coming back.


----------

