# DRM Infected ??



## busy91 (Feb 27, 2009)

Can someone explain to me in plain laymen terms what DRM infected and Defective by Design mean.  I want to download some books to my K2 and I see this, and am not sure if this is going to mess my K2 up. 

Yes I'm paranoid!


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## tlshaw (Nov 10, 2008)

Where did you see this?


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

There's a group of people who are very opposed to DRM (digital rights management) and the fact that Kindle books have DRM protection. They also aren't too excited about the Kindle. Anyway, they have created a bunch of tags, such as DRM infected, that they slap on all Kindle books -- their idea is that by tagging them, more people will become aware of DRM issue and join their bandwagon. Or something like that. It is sort of a virtual protest. At least, that's my understanding.

If you buy a Kindle book from Amazon, your Kindle is not going to be infected or affected. The tags are just the way a group of people are voicing their displeasure over DRM.

L


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## busy91 (Feb 27, 2009)

on the Amazon site when looking through the kindle books.  
I tried to google the terms but can't really get an answer.  I got something to the effect that they are on public domain books.  Basically the books you can get for free from other sites.  But the ones Amazon sells (for like .99 cents) say this at the bottom.  I want to know if I download this from a free site, that if it is DRM infected, it will still be OK to use.


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## busy91 (Feb 27, 2009)

Oh, OK thanks.  I was thinking it as a virus or something.  

Thanks for the reply. That helps a lot.


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## jpmorgan49 (Feb 10, 2009)

I guess to state is simply, and please correct me if I wrong.  DRM ensures that the book will only be able to be read on a specific eReader.  When you buy a book from Amazon they encode that book you bought with a specific ID assigned to your Kindle.  By doing this the book can only be opened and read on that device.  There is a lot of controversy about doing this.  It is also done to some mp3 you buy from various suppliers.  OKI, school is over, go home.  
jp


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## Mycroft (Jan 10, 2009)

The term "Defective by Design" was coined - or perhaps appropriated - by the Free Software Foundation in order to publicize their position that DRM (Digital Rights Management) is inherently a misguided approach to protecting content. The term "DRM Infected" is a more generic term used by many different adherents of the anti-DRM position.

It's worth pointing out that the campaign against DRM is hardly limited to ebooks.  Perhaps the most widespread use of DRM has been made by Apple with their protected AAC files, which made of the vast majority of songs available via iTunes until relatively recently. Other examples include computer and console games as well as DVD's.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Thank you, Mycroft, for that info. That's useful to know.

L


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Wow, some people really have WAY too much time on their hands!


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## akpak (Mar 5, 2009)

When it comes to the "free" books, I suspect it's also a protest that Amazon is enforcing DRM on titles that are in the public domain. There's no reason for any book that can be gotten from Project Gutenberg should have any sort of DRM on it... Not when you can get it really for free, and with no restrictions.

EDIT: 50 posts! BOOSH!


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

akjak said:


> When it comes to the "free" books, I suspect it's also a protest that Amazon is enforcing DRM on titles that are in the public domain. There's no reason for any book that can be gotten from Project Gutenberg should have any sort of DRM on it... Not when you can get it really for free, and with no restrictions.
> 
> EDIT: 50 posts! BOOSH!


Right. I think it's the process that Amazon uses to make Kindle books -- DRM is built-in and not something that can be turned on or off. It's there. But, like you said, if the book is free elsewhere, go and get it elsewhere. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that. I've actually paid for a book from Amazon that I know I could have gotten free, but there is a convenience factor involved, plus having it archived in my Amazon library. But this was a conscious decision, not an Amazon scheme foisted on me.

AND: 50 posts! Congrats! And somewhere along the line, I hit 6K! Wowza!

L


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

busy91 said:


> Oh, OK thanks. I was thinking it as a virus or something.
> 
> Thanks for the reply. That helps a lot.


 As long as it's not a virus, it's all good.


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## robin.goodfellow (Nov 17, 2008)

Probably you don't have to worry about getting virused from a site like Project Gutenburg or manybooks.com or feedbooks.  However, you should probably note that there are sites where you can get ebooks (or movies or music or anything else that can be digified) where the material is not legal and the sources aren't trustworthy.  But then, those sites won't be advocated here and I don't think that type of site will advertise in reputable places, which means the sites will be far more difficult to find, and will almost eliminate the possibility that you just happen into one.  And frankly, sites offering books that have expired into the public domain that are doing it for the public good (like Gutenburg) can't afford to give out virused material.  They work on grants and volunteer donations (not to mention volunteer time) and don't need the bad publicity that would cause.  And certainly it wouldn't help further widespread use of ebooks.

And DRM is simply a way for a publisher to manage access to digital content, to keep it from being disseminated to the detriment of the publisher.  It's a little like if you buy a hard cover book:  you can sell your copy, or give it away, or donate it to the library, but you can't expect to profit from it after that.  You couldn't sell the book, then expect the buyer to pay you a percentage if they go on to sell it.  CDs and DVDs are the same way.  You own it, but you can't profit from it, and your rights as an owner are somewhat limited in the ways you can use it and view it.


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## davidwb (Mar 8, 2009)

There are two sides to DRM. On the one hand the use of DRM restricts, to a degree, illegal copying. On the other hand, it also restricts the legal and proper rights of the purchaser. Just to name a few of the disadvantages of DRM to we consumers: we cannot sell books we've purchased but no longer want to keep. Amazon restricts us to reading our Amazon purchased books on a Kindle, iPhone, or iPod though we will probably see the list grow. I inherited a large library from my Grandfather but my heirs will, at least for now, be unable to inherit my Kindle books. Frankly put, we are now at the mercy of Amazon and at any time the company might decide to get out of the eBook business and shut down its computers. We've already seen several digital music stores do exactly that.

Given all these restrictions it isn't hard to understand why many people are very against DRM.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

I've never understood why everyone rants so much about Amazon and DRM....DRM has been on ebooks of various formats since long before Kindle, and other ebook readers and ebook stores not dedicated to specific readers also *still* have DRM on them. It's not just Kindle/Amazon. There are books with DRM on them that can't even be read by Kindle because of the DRM. How come nobody bitches about that? Instead they only bitch about "oh my gawd, Amazon might go out of business so the Kindle is an evil evil thing."


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## busy91 (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the answers.  I learned a lot!


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Steph H said:


> I've never understood why everyone rants so much about Amazon and DRM....DRM has been on ebooks of various formats since long before Kindle, and other ebook readers and ebook stores not dedicated to specific readers also *still* have DRM on them. It's not just Kindle/Amazon. There are books with DRM on them that can't even be read by Kindle because of the DRM. How come nobody bitches about that? Instead they only bitch about "oh my gawd, Amazon might go out of business so the Kindle is an evil evil thing."


Though Amazon might go out of business, and that would probably mean that our books would be unusable, that's a minor concern. The bigger concern is that with DRM, I cannot read my book on my laptop. And if I go through 6 Kindles, I have to buy the book again to download it to the seventh. In an attempt to address copyright infringement, DRM tilts things too far away from the interests of the consumers and too far in the direction of the convenience of the publisher.


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

I wonder how long they will keep using DRM.  I bet its a matter of time before they will come out with some alternative system.


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## TM (Nov 25, 2008)

The DRM doesn't bother me at all, in fact - i think it is understandable. 

coyote - if you go through 6 kindles, you will not have to rebuy the book. CS has already reset the licesence for people that have had that issue (hopefully they will come up with an easy way to do that, one the user can do).

As for sharing or giving the books - until they come up with a way to make sure that it is deleted from the original kindle (and can you imagine the mightmare of tracking it if the books pases through many hands), then they would be crazy to allow it. Way to many would simply give a copy while keeping the file themselves. That is one of the issues with digital media. 

I think Amazon is doing a fiarly good job of protecting thier interests, the authors (and publishers0 and the end-users.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

If I wasn't opposed to silly tags, I would go around and add DRM Protected and Protected by Design...


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## Arkhan (Feb 17, 2009)

TM said:


> The DRM doesn't bother me at all, in fact - i think it is understandable.
> 
> As for sharing or giving the books - until they come up with a way to make sure that it is deleted from the original kindle (and can you imagine the mightmare of tracking it if the books pases through many hands), then they would be crazy to allow it.


I agree. Then again this DRM is nothing like what music or PC games use so I am happy for that. I buy my ebook to read on the Kindle, can download it as many times as I want so I don't have to back up my own copies to CD, and Amazon allows me to do it all without ever touching my PC. If someone else came out with a great reader that I liked much better, then it would be disappointing because my library is useless on it. Without DRM, there is very little to stop rampant distribution of pirated copies of all the popular books. Having "used" ebook sales will also bite into that profit margin and serves no purpose since ebooks never have to go out of print. Both cause ebook sales drop so low that and nobody wants to support them. Even with DRM there are plenty of authors that refuse to allow their work out on ebooks. As much as I hate DRM, we need it right now to keep this market as honest and profitable as possible or else we won't have ebooks at all. Think of how many years it took the music industry to finally break down on DRM.

As for a way to remove items from the Kindle, they already have it. A book that I purchased by mistake was removed from my Kindle as soon as the return was processed and I turned Whispernet on. I actually left it on there to see if it would be removed or if I had to delete it myself.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Arkhan said:


> Without DRM, there is very little to stop rampant distribution of pirated copies of all the popular books.


Even with DRM, there is little to stop pirating. You can get pretty much any popular book you want from various illegal sites.

Mike


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## nebulinda (Dec 19, 2008)

jmiked said:


> Even with DRM, there is little to stop pirating. You can get pretty much any popular book you want from various illegal sites.
> 
> Mike


Absolutely. DRM does nothing to protect digital content. It only punishes those who actually paid for their books or music. Even books that do not "officially" exist in digital format, such as Harry Potter, are available for illegal download quite easily.


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## luvmy4brats (Nov 9, 2008)

TM said:


> coyote - if you go through 6 kindles, you will not have to rebuy the book. CS has already reset the licesence for people that have had that issue (hopefully they will come up with an easy way to do that, one the user can do).


Sadly, that's not quite true. I had hoped it was, but found out differently. The only time they'll remove the licenses is basically due to warranty replacements.

3/9/2009
Kindle License Limits
The licenses associated with most books and other non-subscription content purchased from the Kindle Store allow you to download and view each item for your personal use on up to six Kindles registered to your Amazon.com account. Each download to a Kindle, iPhone, or iPod Touch counts as one of those (up to) six devices. Once you've reached the limit, the title(s) will need to be purchased a second time to download to further devices.

In cases of this license limit being reached due to warranty replacements or other exceptional circumstances, Customer Service can free licenses used by devices no longer accessible.

3/12/2009
Kindle Book Licensing Restrictions
The licenses associated with most books and other non-subscription content purchased from the Kindle Store allow you to download and view each item for your personal use on up to six Kindles registered to your Amazon.com account. If you deregister a Kindle for whatever reason, the licenses for any books downloaded to that Kindle remain linked with the device.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

nebulinda said:


> Absolutely. DRM does nothing to protect digital content. It only punishes those who actually paid for their books or music.


When I worked for Borders in downtown Washington DC during the mid 90s, the store had a huge shrinkage problem: not just a few books, but whole stacks of new hardcovers were taken--right by the security system and security guards. These were professional thieves who stole, not on a whim, but as their livelihood, reselling the stolen merchandise as street vendors. Security systems to them were barely more than an inconvenience, but the high school kid might think twice.

The same holds for ebook piracy. The dedicated file sharer will not be stopped. DRM protects from casual piracy from ordinary people who might be otherwise tempted to share files.


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

Geemont said:


> When I worked for Borders in downtown Washington DC during the mid 90s, the store had a huge shrinkage problem: not just a few books, but whole stacks of new hardcovers were taken--right by the security system and security guards. These were professional thieves who stole, not on a whim, but as their livelihood, reselling the stolen merchandise as street vendors. Security systems to them were barely more than an inconvenience, but the high school kid might think twice.


Really?  That's crazy. Also makes you wonder about other things. When border guys catch drugs, stacks upon stacks of Cash, Electronic, etc etc.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

TM said:


> coyote - if you go through 6 kindles, you will not have to rebuy the book. CS has already reset the licesence for people that have had that issue (hopefully they will come up with an easy way to do that, one the user can do).


I believe that this only applies if you replace Kindles due to defects. If you simply upgrade 6 times, Amazon seems to be implying that you will have to purchase the book again.

IMHO, anything that makes something less usable is a bad thing. DRM in Amazon books keeps you from lending (or giving) a book to a friend, and I think that's major. DRM keeps me from sharing the Sunday paper with my family, and that's major as well. And of course the pricing structure is a little nuts. An e-book should never be more expensive than any paper edition of the book.

Note that I recognize the advantages of e-books. No ink smudges on my fingers when reading the paper, no searching for a bookmark, searchable text, and being able to read while flossing. ;-)

Ron


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## nebulinda (Dec 19, 2008)

Geemont said:


> The same holds for ebook piracy. The dedicated file sharer will not be stopped. DRM protects from casual piracy from ordinary people who might be otherwise tempted to share files.


DRM stops that specific copy from being shared. But there are perhaps hundreds or even thousands of the same content floating around the internet. Yeah, if you want to illegally upload your purchased content it'll be difficult, but downloading someone else's pirated copy? Easy as pie.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "casual piracy." Does that refer to an undedicated file sharer? To someone who gives a digital copy to a friend?

But the bulk of piracy isn't from passing files between friends. It's from the people who always have a couple torrents downloading, who spend a good portion of their day scouring the internet for the highest quality files, and from the private torrent communities that mandate you equal what you upload to what you download, and that it's quality material. File sharing between friends and family is nothing compared to these people. That's why I say that DRM is useless and punishes law-abiding people. I can't innocently give a purchased audiobook to my mom for her birthday, or play music I bought in iTunes on my new, iTunes-less computer, but I can download hundreds of files and distribute them to everyone on campus with little to no effort.

That's why places like The Pirate Bay average about one trial a year, but nobody cares if you copy a borrowed CD from a friend. DRM exists to stop piracy, but it utterly fails because the people who are doing all the pirating have ways around DRM.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

nebulinda said:


> DRM exists to stop piracy, but it utterly fails because the people who are doing all the pirating have ways around DRM.


Word. DRM is inherently defective in stopping non-casual piracy because it contains the seeds of its own defeat. In order for your Kindle to decode a book that is sent to it from Amazon, it needs to know the decode key. At some point that key will be stored on your Kindle, and in fact, it turns out that it's generated based on your serial number. Someone has already published a script that will tell you your Mobipocket PID based on your Kindle's serial number. Given that, most cryptographers could convert the Kindle to a non-DRM Mobipocket file.

Will _most_ people do this? No, of course not. But some will, and annoyingly, these are the users most likely to perform widespread piracy. The rest of us just want the freedom to loan a book or perhaps make a backup.

coyote


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## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

DRM doesn't bother me at all. I knew it existed BEFORE I bought a Kindle and didn't expect it to go away just because I now owned one. 

Comparing music and books in this instance is ludicrous. Every MP3 I have is from a CD that I bought. It takes no time or effort to create a digital copy of music. Not one book I own is a result of me copying it. There is no cheap/easy way to create a digital copy of a DTB. I can listen to music in my car or on various types of players in my house; there is nothing I would want to read a Kindle book on except my Kindle. Again, I knew this going in. It's like comparing Apples and Guitars.


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

luvmy4brats said:


> Sadly, that's not quite true. I had hoped it was, but found out differently. The only time they'll remove the licenses is basically due to warranty replacements.
> 
> 3/9/2009
> Kindle License Limits
> ...


I'm really hoping this will change especially now that they have opened up Kindle to iPhones and iTouch -- since people replace their phones so often. Also I can see myself going thru 3 more Kindles if they come out with significant changes in them and I will not be a happy camper if I have to buy my books again - especially since some of them I have bought twice from Amazon already in DTB form and now in Kindle form. I would think there would be a way to have it open you up for more Kindles when you deregister an old one -

If not I truly feel like others have been saying that I am just renting the books even if it takes me 10 years to have more than 6 devices on my account current and deregistered. Amazon saving my books on my digital library won't do me any good if I can't get to them to read them.


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## Arkhan (Feb 17, 2009)

Like someone else stated previously, it is no secret that Amazon has DRM on ebooks and that they cannot be resold or traded. I knew this going in and while it sucks, I am not going to complain because I accepted that when I decided to buy into the product. I stayed away from the digital music industry until a few months ago for this exact same reason. (Amazon now only sells DRM free music) DRM was too restrictive for me so I chose to keep getting my music on CD's just like I always did. Maybe one day ebooks will be really popular and DRM won't be such a big deal anymore. Until that time the only thing we can do is voice our opinion that we would like for it to be gone, or at least be more flexable to suit our needs. Maybe one day we can even vote against DRM with the most important thing of all, where we purchase ebooks. Right now, we don't have these options and I am willing to accept DRM if that is what it takes for some of these authors and publishers to allow an ebook version to be released. 

If you want to buy books that you can resell, or trade with friends, ebooks are just not the way to do it right now. 

As for License issues, this is something they may or may not bend on. I have a feeling it is not a big enough problem for most people right now because they haven't gone through 6 kindles yet. I will be curious to see where they stand when the average person has used 6 licenses. Telling people they have to buy all the ebooks over again because they just bought the brand new Kindle 7, will not go over very well and would be the end of the product for a lot of people. Including me.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

nebulinda said:


> I can't innocently give a purchased audiobook to my mom for her birthday, or play music I bought in iTunes on my new, iTunes-less computer,


iTunes music no longer has DRM. The very few albums I bought from the iTunes music store were re-downloaded as non-DRM for a few dollars months ago. I can play them anywhere I like. And you could have always burned them to a CD and played them anywhere you like. I never considered the iTunes stuff to be really copy-protected.

Mike


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Random thought just popped into my head:  early on a lot of tunes had some sort of DRM. . .well it was harder to get them, easier to swap with friends so the publishers used it to control things a bit.  As mp3 players became more ubiquitous and it became easy and relatively cheap to just buy your own music -- and correspondingly more difficult to get it from someone else -- the need for DRM kinda went away.  Not sure of any of this because I've never done any music downloads, but it seems to be that as ebook readrs with a download capability catch on, the DRM issue will go away on it's own.  People illegally share because they deem it too hard or too expensive to buy legally.  Except for dedicated pirates, of course.

Does any of that make sense?  I don't really have a dog in this fight since the DRM doesn't bother me at all.  Just random thoughts, as I said. . . .

Ann


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## rho (Feb 12, 2009)

Actually wouldn't it be to Amazons benefit to have anyone with _*any*_ ereader be able to buy their books - think how many ebooks they would sell then. People like me would still buy the Kindle because of the convenience but people who have other devices would still spend money at Amazon.

But they should also do away with the 6 device thing before having to re-buy the books you already bought - to me the way it is set up now is more like a long term lease rather than buying a book - and it is the thing that would keep me from upgrading my Kindle each time it comes out (I normally would upgrade each time since I am weak and need the newest thing out there)


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

Stuff like DRM actually contributes to piracy more than protecting from it.  People start looking for a way to get rid of DRM and on the way find a bunch of other "cool" stuff to add to their little toys, and DRM always loses


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## Kind (Jan 28, 2009)

ScottBooks said:


> DRM doesn't bother me at all. I knew it existed BEFORE I bought a Kindle and didn't expect it to go away just because I now owned one.
> 
> Comparing music and books in this instance is ludicrous. Every MP3 I have is from a CD that I bought. It takes no time or effort to create a digital copy of music. Not one book I own is a result of me copying it. There is no cheap/easy way to create a digital copy of a DTB. I can listen to music in my car or on various types of players in my house; there is nothing I would want to read a Kindle book on except my Kindle. Again, I knew this going in. It's like comparing Apples and Guitars.


That's a pretty good explanation and example.


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

ScottBooks said:


> DRM doesn't bother me at all. I knew it existed BEFORE I bought a Kindle and didn't expect it to go away just because I now owned one.
> 
> Comparing music and books in this instance is ludicrous. Every MP3 I have is from a CD that I bought. It takes no time or effort to create a digital copy of music. Not one book I own is a result of me copying it. There is no cheap/easy way to create a digital copy of a DTB. I can listen to music in my car or on various types of players in my house; there is nothing I would want to read a Kindle book on except my Kindle. Again, I knew this going in. It's like comparing Apples and Guitars.


You must be very young. Me, I remember that it used to be near impossible to make a copy of a music CD. Eventually technology became cheaper, and everyone had a CD drive in their computers. A few years later, it became possible to write CDs.

Right now, anyone with $250,000 to spend can get a scanner that copies books at 3,000 pages / hour. A home version is not inconceivable.

My husband just had to have his Kindle replaced because of a defective battery. That's one device down. He also downloaded books to his phone. That's two. A few upgrades and he'll have to re-purchase his entire library. I think that a suitable metaphor is that if you use a book with more than 6 bookstands, you need to buy it again.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

coyote said:


> My husband just had to have his Kindle replaced because of a defective battery. That's one device down. He also downloaded books to his phone. That's two. A few upgrades and he'll have to re-purchase his entire library. I think that a suitable metaphor is that if you use a book with more than 6 bookstands, you need to buy it again.


You can get the license back (or whatever the right term would be) on the defective Kindle according to a post in another thread.

L


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Leslie said:


> You can get the license back (or whatever the right term would be) on the defective Kindle according to a post in another thread.
> 
> L


I saw that, but Amazon told Dan that they couldn't do that. Apparently their policy either isn't clear or his support person was being lazy.

-c


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

coyote said:


> I saw that, but Amazon told Dan that they couldn't do that. Apparently their policy either isn't clear or his support person was being lazy.
> 
> -c


I think the policy is evolving. Personally, I think that a few years down the road, when there have been multiple upgrades and the vast majority of users are bumping up against the 6 license limit, the policy is going to be different than what is presently posted -- to reflect reality and to keep their customers happy. But they had to start somewhere. And we are all early adopters. A certain level and acceptance of ambiguity comes with being one of the first ones out of the gate.

L


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## coyote (Feb 24, 2009)

Leslie said:


> I think the policy is evolving. Personally, I think that a few years down the road, when there have been multiple upgrades and the vast majority of users are bumping up against the 6 license limit, the policy is going to be different than what is presently posted -- to reflect reality and to keep their customers happy. But they had to start somewhere. And we are all early adopters. A certain level and acceptance of ambiguity comes with being one of the first ones out of the gate.


I hope you're right. The biggest problem that I can see is that the publishers might not allow Amazon to change these restrictions. On the other hand, Apple was able to convince the publishers to allow 'upgrades' to non-DRM music, so hopefully Amazon will work out something similar.

-C


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## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

coyote said:


> You must be very young.
> 
> Right now, anyone with $250,000 to spend


I'll be 45 in August and this $$$ doesn't approach cheap/easy.


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