# Kindle refund policy hurts short story writers



## ingrid avluv (Feb 15, 2013)

"*Returning Kindle Books*

"Books you purchase from the Kindle Store are eligible for return and refund if we receive your request within seven days of the date of purchase. Once a refund is issued, you'll no longer have access to the book. To request a refund and return content, visit Manage Your Kindle, Click the Actions button next to the title you'd like to return, and select Return for refund, or contact customer service."

***

This policy can appear understandable from Amazon's point of view, but it's incredibly unfair to writers of short stories and singles. Anyone can purchase a book of less than 20,000 words (which can easily be read within 7 days) and then simply return it for a full refund. The money is then lost and the book's ranking is also damaged.

I know that this is happening because I am selling hundreds of books each month and getting almost wholly great reviews on all my titles, yet I still see several refunds on my shorter books (but never on my longer ones). If people really didn't like the books I would have received negative reviews. Those are the easiest ones to get. Dissatisfied consumers are the ones most likely to leave reviews. I can also see that my longer books get plenty of borrows while the shorter ones never do.

I think the return window should be shortened and/or readers be allowed to borrow more than one book a month (since the return policy allows them to borrow in essence, with the key difference being that writers actually get paid for those). Of course it doesn't matter since we have no influence on Amazon the same way seller have no influence on eBay (which is now geared 100% toward the consumer to the detriment of long time users). I worry this trend will continue and hurt us more and more.

What do you think?


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

a) I write short stories. I have only returns I can attribute to misclicked (no-longer)freebies.
b) I can read any book sold on Kindle in 7 days. ANY book. Find me one you think it too long to be possible, I bet you I can read it. George R.R. Martin's latest I FORCED myself to go slow, it lasted 10 days.

(My bet on why your shorts get returned? People think they are novels because they're too silly to pay attention. They're not reading and rejecting a short, they're rejecting that it's not a novel.)


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

I write short stories exclusively.  I get occasional returns. I like their return policy. 

I've used it myself for mistake 1-click orders. It's just so easy to do. I believe that is a significant chunk of returns.

Yes, some people will abuse it. Amazon can very clearly track serial returners and cracks down on them, eliminating their ability to return items or stripping them of their account entirely. They don't get away with it for long.

(Also, it's not really exclusive to short stories. Anyone determined to steal a novel can download the necessary software to quickly copy a novel within the 7 day period (try 10 minute period) and then return it and read it at their leisure.)


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Are there malicious returns? Of course there are. I've experienced them myself and they do cluster around shorter works and works of an erotic nature or at least works people think/hope are erotic. 

But as long as Amazon maintains its "one-click-buy" system without even an "Are you really sure?" warning, an easy return system is important, simply because it is so easy to accidentally click the buy button. I've done it myself, and while I wouldn't return a 99 cent indie, I have returned a pricey trad pub book I bought by accident.


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## ingrid avluv (Feb 15, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I can read any book sold on Kindle in 7 days. ANY book. Find me one you think it too long to be possible, I bet you I can read it. George R.R. Martin's latest I FORCED myself to go slow, it lasted 10 days.


Sure you could. Question is WOULD most people. Answer is no. A 5,000 worder on the other hand is a one day read for anyone.

BTW, how about the 1500 page War and Peace 



> (My bet on why your shorts get returned? People think they are novels because they're too silly to pay attention. They're not reading and rejecting a short, they're rejecting that it's not a novel.)


Yea that has been the case once that I know of. His review complained "this is not a full book it's short" -- guess he missed the product attributes where it said "Print Pages: 25".


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

ingrid avluv said:


> Sure you could. Question is WOULD most people. Answer is no. A 5,000 worder on the other hand is a one day read for anyone.


ANyone who sets out with the intention of cheating the system will cheat it.



> BTW, how about the 1500 page War and Peace


Had to in a week in school. So yes. Passed the exam I was reading it for, so I retained it. DO not have much love for Russian literature as a result, however.



> Yea that has been the case once that I know of. His review complained "this is not a full book it's short" -- guess he missed the product attributes where it said "Print Pages: 25".


That's a definite problem with shorts, particularly given that people price novels at 99c. (Ridiculous, but whatever.)


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh, people return full-length novels as well. I'd say at about the same rate as short stories.

It was much higher in January. Amazon has reduced the returns since February.

It stings a little, but remember they were never truly sales.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

This has been tossed around several times over the past few years and it always comes back to the same thing. Do people read and return? Sure. I'm positive that some do. I fact, I know they do. What some of you might not know is that Amazon flags this. If you return too many books to where they think it is excessive, they give you the boot. You have to keep in mind that Amazon is a business and people who spend and return aren't revenue neutral to them. It takes resources to process returns and that's not something they like to do. I've read of several readers who had their accounts closed and an indefinite ban placed. Doesn't your heart just bleed for them?  

So more than likely, people are just accidentally purchasing and then returning. It does happen and with the touch screen, it's really easy to do.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

ingrid avluv said:


> BTW, how about the 1500 page War and Peace


I read War and Peace in three days, in the original Russian (my native language) back when I was a teen.

I actually know many people who can "swallow" two full-length novels a day.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Anecdotal reports suggest that Amazon cracks down on people who abuse the returns system. I know I saw a reference to it on a previous thread here, so I Googled & found this Amazon forum thread where people are talking about it: http://www.amazon.com/forum/kindle?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx255CUNAUZS03Z

I think that's encouraging. Sure, it doesn't mean that you'll never get a return from someone abusing the returns system to get a free read - but it does mean that there will be less of it.

It's really easy to accidentally one click buy on some tablets. Heck, when I was first testing out my son's Kindle Fire, the 'buy' button loaded under my thumb where I was holding the tablet and treated the presence of my thumb as a 'click'! Thankfully, it was a print book and more confirmation was required before purchase went through, but if that had been an ebook page, it would have been an instant accidental purchase.

If you don't already, then you may want to specify in your blurb that it's a short. Many readers never check the page count.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

As someone who currently only sells shorter works, I find this refund policy most jarring, and I even wrote to Amazon about it last month. I was shocked to find that the returns on the first in my erotica series had reached a whopping 30%, and the returns only started when I released the second book in the series. It got to a point where I knew that, once the first was bought and returned, I'd get a sale on the second one immediately after. Disgusting. 

I think, in the beginning it was fair to say that many of the returns could have been attributed to accidental purchasing, but I don't think that's the case now. It's simply too easy to return a book on Amazon, and more and more people are going there for "free" books, not deterred by the fact that many of those books aren't actually free. 

Edited to add: I specify the word count in ALL of my books, on all platforms.


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## Shane Murray (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think there is much we can do about this one, I think it very unlikely that Amazon would change their returns policy. It is costing them some money, but on the other hand it encourages people to use their website, and it is only the minority of jerks who return everything.

The only defense against this is to write longer works, or compile the short stories into a collection I think. Of course, writing good should also discourage most customers from returns the book or short due to guilt  . Not saying that you guys are writing bad, so don't take it that way, but it would be interesting to see the % of returns on highly ranked books vs. lower ones.

Anyone got any stats on their returns rate for differently ranked titles (i.e. 3 vs. 4 or 5 stars)?


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

I agree, a number of Amazon.com's policies favor customers at the expense of Indie authors, and also of Amazon's sales. I recently sold 3 ebooks in the UK, and two were promptly returned. I checked and did not find any problem or reason for this.

Barnes and Noble has a zero return policy, I have a 48 hour return policy for ebooks bought from my website 
In my opinion Amazon.com's policies overall favor customers, not suppliers. Perhaps that is why both Walmart and Target no longer carry Amazon.com products. They booted Amazon.com out. There has to be a good reason.

Phil Duke


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I know people who buy clothes they know they'll only wear one time, tuck in the tags, wear the outfit and return it the next day. The first time I heard of someone doing this (a lady I worked with many years ago), I was shocked. I've since met several people who think nothing of doing this. The thing is that none of these returners couldn't afford the clothes. They just didn't think they should have to pay for something they would only use once.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Every time I hear of an author/publisher asking Amazon to stop the 7 day return policy, I feel compelled to send a letter to Amazon saying how much I, as a customer, appreciate it.  If someone using my kindle actually buys something I don't want, I can return it easily. If I buy something and find that the formatting is screwy, I can return it easily. It isn't actually that hard to click 'buy' accidentally from a kindle or Fire; I've even done it from my computer when I meant to sample and just moused to the wrong button.

Amazon is the only eBook retailer that serves it's customers this way, and I applaud them for it. Buy a nook book by accident? Too bad, so sad, I hope it wasn't anything too expensive because there's no way to return it and you can't give it away to a friend -- as you could with a physical book. (Heck, you probably COULD return a physical book - why should an ebook be different? ) I've rarely had to take advantage of the policy at Amazon, but have been glad it was there the few times I did.

Mind you, I've no doubt there are less than honorable people who think nothing of finishing a book within a week and then returning it for a full refund. And, arguably, the odds of them finishing in a week is probably better with a short. But, as others have suggested, I am confident Amazon pays attention to such things and those folks risk their accounts being locked. And, as others have said, if this is their attitude, they'll do it no matter what.

I also understand there are a percentage of returns from people who buy it thinking it's a full length book and aren't happy it's a short. All you can really do, as the publisher, is be sure their expectations are set via the product description and then not get too upset if, as was also pointed out, they don't pay attention.

Finally, though I have no empirical data to back this up, I'm not convinced that the large majority of kindle owners are even fully aware of the policy. Members here notwithstanding, whenever I've been in conversation with kindle owners in the real world, and they mention having gotten a book by accident, I've told them about the 7 day return and they've always been surprised. They had no idea. This has happened to me several times. They ask _me_ because they know I know kindle stuff.  They're _readers_ and they're grateful I point this out since it means they now have back their $5 or $10 and can buy something else instead.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Finally, though I have no empirical data to back this up, I'm not convinced that the large majority of kindle owners are even fully aware of the policy. Members here notwithstanding, whenever I've been in conversation with kindle owners in the real world, and they mention having gotten a book by accident, I've told them about the 7 day return and they've always been surprised. They had no idea. This has happened to me several times. They as _me_ because they know I know kindle stuff.  They're _readers_ and they're grateful I point this out since it means they now have back their $5 or $10 and can buy something else instead.


I've had the same experience, Ann. If they didn't buy from their kindle, I don't think they have any way of knowing about the policy. Amazon doesn't post it in screaming letters and those buttons are darned close.

Seeing a sale and a return pop up at the same time tells me the book was bought by accident. Sometimes I'll see a borrow right after. Most times, it's just a return. Once, a book was returned on the first of the month and I started off at a negative one. 

Returns are definitely annoying, but all retailers have to deal with them.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Every time I hear of an author/publisher asking Amazon to stop the 7 day return policy, I feel compelled to send a letter to Amazon saying how much I, as a customer, appreciate it.  If someone using my kindle actually buys something I don't want, I can return it easily. If I buy something and find that the formatting is screwy, I can return it easily. It isn't actually that hard to click 'buy' accidentally from a kindle or Fire; I've even done it from my computer when I meant to sample and just moused to the wrong button.


I've done it. I've returned it. It was a book by a KB author.

Did I feel bad?

Mwah. Hugh can take it.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I get very few returns. Usually any returns for me follow a free period as the book reverts to paid.

Some don't pay attention, particularly when downloading free books.

Other usually follow two sales within the same time frame and I assume a miss click has occurred.

I have SHORT STORY in brackets for my Amazon title description, yet received a low star review saying, "I wasn't expecting a short story." 

I'm sure there are many more reasons for returns, but that about says it all for me.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Decon said:


> I get very few returns. Usually any returns for me follow a free period as the book reverts to paid.
> 
> Some don't pay attention, particularly when downloading free books.
> 
> ...


Yep. Mirrors my experiences. Returns following free periods when there was a string of "after the fact" sales. Some commentary about length.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> It isn't actually that hard to click 'buy' accidentally from a kindle or Fire; I've even done it from my computer when I meant to sample and just moused to the wrong button.


Well then it shouldn't be so easy to accidentally buy an ebook, just as it isn't easy to accidentally buy a boat. The other retailers don't have returns policies on ebooks because it isn't easy to buy a book by mistake. This is an Amazon problem. If most of the returns are accidental purchases then surely that's something Amazon should be addressing, right? You would think so. Also, if that really is the case then why have 7 days at all? Why not something like 24/48 hours?

Readers are now so used to seeing free plastered everywhere on Amazon that they're going to start expecting everything to be free, or see everything as overpriced. But that's fine, because if they don't crack down on it, it'll be more widely abused, and then all writers will be a lot worse off, not just us short story writers. Perhaps then many will change their tune.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

^^^ This


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

C.C. Kelly said:


> I think whenever we discuss such 'issues', we should remind ourselves that the zon was instrumental in getting these books/stories off of our hard drives and onto the market in the first place. Are returns annoying? For me, not really. Most people here have mentioned a less than 10% return rate for the most part. Personalty, I'm d*mn glad I have the opportunity and privilege (not right) to entertain that other 90%.
> 
> Whether it is returns, the evil ever-changing algos or the much maligned Select program, we should remind ourselves that Self Publishing is an amazing and fairly new opportunity for writers. Perhaps we would all be better served by demonstrating a little more appreciation of the business decisions of the ones that allow us to participate and a little less complaining that they have customers to please as well.
> 
> ...


No change was ever implemented because people kept quiet. If history has taught us anything, it's that.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm happy with the returns policy (now that they crack down on serial abusers of it).  I'm a customer as well as a writer and I look at my own shopping/buying habits.  I know that, if the ability to return books didn't exist, I'd be less likely to browse/shop on the website.  If I thought there was a danger that I could accidentally click 'buy' on something expensive and not be able to return it - then I wouldn't risk it.  I'd only ever look at the website when logged out and I'd have to really decide that I wanted something in order to log in and buy it or add it to my wishlist.  Many things wouldn't get added to a wishlist for future purchase if I had to operate like that.

So, I believe that the policy gains us more sales than it loses us.

Personally - I'd like to see one click buy for ebooks & songs become optional, like it is for print books and other items.  I've complained to Amazon in the past about the inability to turn off one click ordering for ebooks.  I'd far rather add them to a cart and have the opportunity to review the order first.  As far as I'm aware, the only way to turn off one click ordering is to delete my payment details from the website, which is a hassle when I buy other stuff reasonably frequently.

Yes, returns are disappointing - but if you look at the wider picture, they are part of a customer-centric policy that encourages people to shop at Amazon, and buy our books while they're there.


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## David J Normoyle (Jun 22, 2012)

Agree with everyone who is in favor of the returns policy. 

It's good business to make your customers happy first and foremost. So if they didn't mean to click it, thought they were buying a novel instead of a short story or even if they read a few pages and didn't like it, allow them to return it. (I know there are samples and product descriptions but not everyone reads them.) 

There will always be a few abusers but keeping the vast majority of customers happy is more important than punishing the few who are trying to get away with something. (They'll find another way to get free content if Amazon changed this policy.)


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Lady Vine said:


> No change was ever implemented because people kept quiet. If history has taught us anything, it's that.


I don't want the policy changed. 7 days is sufficient. It doesn't really hurt shorts more than novels. It helps customers. Abusers of the policy get dealt with. We all do fine.


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## Aya Ling (Nov 21, 2012)

Zelah Meyer said:


> I know that, if the ability to return books didn't exist, I'd be less likely to browse/shop on the website.


Same here. I rarely buy apps in Apple store because it's hard to make returns. There were times when I bought an app, was dissatisfied, but didn't want to go through the process of emailing Apple for a refund, so now I just don't buy anything, unless I tried out the free Lite version of an app first and go on to buy the full app.

However I have a ridiculous wish to black out the refund column--my return rate is pretty low but I hate seeing the sale that I could have made!


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I don't want the policy changed. 7 days is sufficient. It doesn't really hurt shorts more than novels. It helps customers. Abusers of the policy get dealt with. We all do fine.


I do want it changed. 7 days is too much. It does hurt some shorts (erotica) more than novels (most people read shorts quicker than they do novels). It would help customers more if it wasn't so easy to accidentally buy a book. Abusers of the policy eventually get dealt with, though no one can say how many returns it will take for this to happen. Some of us also do very well on B&N, Apple, Smashwords, Allromance and Kobo, yet none of those stores have a returns policy.


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Lady Vine said:


> As someone who currently only sells shorter works, I find this refund policy most jarring, and I even wrote to Amazon about it last month. I was shocked to find that the returns *on the first in my erotica series had reached a whopping 30%*, and the returns only started when I released the second book in the series. It got to a point where I knew that, once the first was bought and returned, I'd get a sale on the second one immediately after. Disgusting.


Lady Vine -- 30% is a huge return rate!!! I had issues with one of my shorts where I was getting something like a 50% return on it. I got some help on here and someone noticed that for them the text was coming up very pale. I made changes to the formatting based on that info and the returns of that story drastically dropped. I write erotica shorts so I feel that I'm a good baseline of comparison for you. 30% is a high return!


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

I just had a grrr moment a few minutes earlier this morning.  Someone had bought my Daddy Substitute Bundle of the first three stories.  The cost is higher than the individuals but as is the norm it provides a discount compared to buying each one individually.  The person kept it close to a week and then returned it this morning.  I really feel that it was an instance of the customer abusing the return policy.  Oh, and I am very clear in my description that the works are short stories and provide the word counts.

I'm not a big seller yet.  I *had* 19 sales for the month.  Two of them were the higher priced bundle which had a big smile on my face. Losing one of those sales smarted.  I know it's not that much of a blip in the big picture but since I'm still at the point where every sale matters and the person had made the purchase close to a week ago, I felt a bit grrrr over it.  But... overall, I'm glad people have the return option.  I know myself, I haven't used it very often but there have been moments where I might have written a scathing review had I not had the return option available.


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Lady Vine said:


> I do want it changed. 7 days is too much. It does hurt some shorts (erotica) more than novels (most people read shorts quicker than they do novels). It would help customers more if it wasn't so easy to accidentally buy a book. Abusers of the policy eventually get dealt with, though no one can say how many returns it will take for this to happen. Some of us also do very well on B&N, Apple, Smashwords, Allromance and Kobo, yet none of those stores have a returns policy.


I gotta say I like the one-click buying option. I use it and enjoy the convenience very, very much when I am purchasing a story from my ph. I think I would buy less without it.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm all for contacting the company if you have an issue with its policies. They can't fix something they don't know is broken. If you don't like the seven day policy, you should let them know. If you like the seven day policy, you should also let them know. Businesses tend to receive more negative feedback than positive. It's human nature to complain, not so much to praise.

But....

Amazon is going to do what is good for them. And what is good for them, what has helped build their brand, along with good prices, is superb customer service. So, what's good for the customer is also going to be good for Amazon in most cases.

I have a month to return physical goods most places. So, compared to brick-and-mortar stores, seven days is short. 28/48 hours isn't long enough--sometimes I impulse buy and then move on to doing something else and don't take a look at the book for formatting issues, etc. (For me, seven days isn't really long enough--it can take weeks/months/years before I get to a book I read.)

Amazon wants to sell books. So, they make it really, really, really easy to buy them. Too easy? Perhaps. But for them, the price of returns outweighs the awesomeness of people buying books left and right.

I've no doubt that people abuse the system. They abuse any system....

Just my .02 worth as a reader and observer. I do understand that excessive returns are a problem.

Betsy


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm all for contacting the company if you have an issue with its policies. They can't fix something they don't know is broken. If you don't like the seven day policy, you should let them know. If you like the seven day policy, you should also let them know. Businesses tend to receive more negative feedback than positive. It's human nature to complain, not so much to praise.
> 
> But....
> 
> ...


Given that we don't have to get in the car and physically make a trip to a location and wait at a return desk, yada yada, I do think that a 7 day return policy is excessive. I think that a 4 day return policy would be ample. The person should have realized quite quickly that they made a purchase they didn't intend to make. Or, if they read an item they intended to buy and found they didn't like... well, I still feel that the 4 days return is ample enough. If they are still on the fence or haven't started reading the work yet at the four day mark, it's on them. And, most books, especially most kindle books, do not create a lot of burden for the customer to be stuck with if they don't get the return made within that length of time.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Some good points I don't necessarily disagree with. I don't think four days would make much difference, however, in the problems raised in the OP.  I can read a short story in an hour or less, probably.  So four days/seven days, if I'm someone who is going to read and return (which is the issue, right?) isn't a big difference.  Heck, if it's a novel, I can read it and return it in four days, unless it's War and Peace.  But if I were the kind of person who would buy and return, I would just buy and return, but strip the DRM from the copy of War and Peace on my Kindle so I could read it.  And probably some of the bogus returns have done exactly that.

But as far as being stuck with a book I didn't want not being a problem...I have clicked on "buy" on the Kindle by accident, and it was a $12.99 book.  Which would be a huge part of my monthly book buying allowance (half).  So, yeah, that would hurt.

Mind you, I don't think it's going to be a seven day return policy forever.  As the industry matures, and the quality of books and of formatting becomes more reliable, I expect it to get shorter.

Betsy


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> (My bet on why your shorts get returned? People think they are novels because they're too silly to pay attention. They're not reading and rejecting a short, they're rejecting that it's not a novel.)


Totally agree. The 12-page short prologue to my novel is perma-free (except for the few days each month when Amazon UK returns it to paid). It is clearly described as a short short, but I'm no longer surprised when a reviewer slams it for not being a complete book! Part of the problem is Amazon's, however, because when it's in the top 100, they list it as fiction>romantic suspense, in addition to short fiction.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

To the OP, would you really rather have someone leave a one star review saying "this book is too short" rather than a return?  You see the return, but EVERYONE will see the review.  As a reader, I don't look at rankings, but I do look at reviews.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

For the last three months I've had the exact same number of returns on each of my novels, including Book 2 in a series. I don't think it's an accident because it sort of goes in a wave. But it's a small number regardless of whether it's cheaters or a random pattern that just happens to go that way.

I like the return policy. I've done an accidental buy before once. 

I just think one day would be plenty of time. Seven ... I don't get how it could take someone a week to figure it out. But Amazon puts the customer above us and always will, maybe to our severe detriment one day, though I doubt it. And they're not wrong to do that. It's what made them big and gives me the opportunity.


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## RoseInTheTardis (Feb 2, 2013)

Like others have said, I can read a novel in a day or two, and so can a lot of people. Not to mention, there's software that can strip or convert the file or copy it and still let the reader return it. So a shorter return period wouldn't prevent fraud. And as Mathew pointed out, people determined to cheat the system will cheat it.



David Alastair Hayden said:


> I just think one day would be plenty of time. Seven ... I don't get how it could take someone a week to figure it out. But Amazon puts the customer above us and always will, maybe to our severe detriment one day, though I doubt it. And they're not wrong to do that. It's what made them big and gives me the opportunity.


Not necessarily a bad thing. Off topic, but they're the only ones issuing refunds for the Borked Sim City game. 

Seven days might seem like a long time but it's easy to click the buy button on an iPad or even a computer without really noticing (especially if the browser crashes or reloads or you're just not paying attention before you've had your coffee) and I assume some people don't stalk their email enough to notice a "Thanks for your purchase" e-mail right away. Or if you buy a lot of stuff online, you might ignore that e-mail without realizing it, only to see a novel you didn't want on your Kindle days later. Things happen. Better to make life easier for customers than make them shop elsewhere.


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## David Alastair Hayden (Mar 19, 2011)

RoseInTheTardis said:


> Like others have said, I can read a novel in a day or two, and so can a lot of people. Not to mention, there's software that can strip or convert the file or copy it and still let the reader return it. So a shorter return period wouldn't prevent fraud. And as Mathew pointed out, people determined to cheat the system will cheat it.
> 
> Not necessarily a bad thing. Off topic, but they're the only ones issuing refunds for the Borked Sim City game.
> 
> Seven days might seem like a long time but it's easy to click the buy button on an iPad or even a computer without really noticing (especially if the browser crashes or reloads or you're just not paying attention before you've had your coffee) and I assume some people don't stalk their email enough to notice a "Thanks for your purchase" e-mail right away. Or if you buy a lot of stuff online, you might ignore that e-mail without realizing it, only to see a novel you didn't want on your Kindle days later. Things happen. Better to make life easier for customers than make them shop elsewhere.


Good point. I get the purchase emails plus bank emails and I check mail frequently. I forget not everyone has their brain hardwired in like I do!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Hydra's business tag line: "There's a sucker born every minute" P. T. Barnum


Lisa, is this the thread you meant to post this in?

Betsy


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Lady Vine said:


> No change was ever implemented because people kept quiet. If history has taught us anything, it's that.


It's not a bad policy though. I would agree with you if it said, "BE SURE TO RETURN THIS SHORT STORY IN 7 DAYS." But it doesn't. I write short stories exclusively across multiple genres and I too get the seasonal returns. It's part of the business. To expect otherwise would be like opening a clothing store and being surprised that a woman wants to return a garment because it "doesn't fit right."


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

I'm fine with the return policy. I appreciate Amazon's customer-centric attitude. I put my books out DRM-free because I'd rather be ripped off by pirates than sell a crippled book that causes problems for the people who do pay for it. Returns are the same thing: I'd rather people be able to rip, read, and return than be stuck with a book they either bought by accident or just didn't like once they started reading it.

Let's also remember that until ebooks, your only option for publishing a short story by itself was a chapbook that you might sell at a convention. My guess is that people are moving a lot more singles than they were in the pre-ebook era.

Getting $0.99 for a single story is pretty good,too. 

When I buy a short story anthology, I know there will be stories I won't like, some I won't even finish. If I'm getting 12-15 stories for, say, $2.99-$4.99, that's okay. But if I were paying $0.99 for a single story (which is like paying $12-15 for an anthology), you can bet I'd return it if I didn't like it.


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## SEAN H. ROBERTSON (Mar 14, 2011)

Dalya said:


> Oh, people return full-length novels as well. I'd say at about the same rate as short stories.
> 
> It was much higher in January. Amazon has reduced the returns since February.
> 
> It stings a little, but remember they were never truly sales.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2013)

As an aside, most of the market research has shown that the more generous the return policy in relation to the price of the item, the LESS likely people are to actually employ the return policy. While there is a small portion of the buying public that will abuse any system (and I do mean ANY system), most people are inherently honest and have an inborn sense of fair play. Even if something is completely broken, most people don't return items. How many times have you bought an article of clothing, got it home, and decided you didn't really like it? How often did you actually return the item, as opposed to putting it in the back of the closet? 

For example, Federal law requires a three day cancellation/return policy on most categories of high ticket products sold direct to consumers in their home (doesn't matter if it is a heater or a vacuum). When I worked for Kirby, we used this as a SELLING POINT. "Mrs. Jones, if you don't like the machine, you can cancel in three days with no obligation." We closed deals my letting people know they could cancel. Only about 5-10% of people ever canceled a contract. $1500 vacuum cleaner. Because once someone acquires something, psychologically, it is theirs and they don't want to return it. In fact, people who were the most resistant and insistent that they would probably cancel ended up being the least likely to cancel because they would convince themselves that they made the right decision. The more someone said they were going to cancel, the more likely they would not only keep the machine but become one of my best long-term customers. 

I also have faith that Amazon keeps tabs on "serial returners" because they lose money when the system gets abused as well.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> As an aside, most of the market research has shown that the more generous the return policy in relation to the price of the item, the LESS likely people are to actually employ the return policy. While there is a small portion of the buying public that will abuse any system (and I do mean ANY system), most people are inherently honest and have an inborn sense of fair play. *Even if something is completely broken, most people don't return items. How many times have you bought an article of clothing, got it home, and decided you didn't really like it? How often did you actually return the item, as opposed to putting it in the back of the closet?*


I think that it should be noted that many things are involved in returning physical items that add to the undesirability of returning it. In the case of a shirt:
- Cost of gas in returning to the location I bought it.
- Searching high and low for the receipt.
- Waiting in the gigantic line at customer service to get to speak to someone.
- Argue as needed that the item was from that store.
- Argue as needed that I don't want a gift card in lieu of my money back.
- etc.

In the case of online shopping for physical items, the same applies, just in the form of return shipping, phone calls, and emails.

In the case of digital goods, it's a phone call.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a return policy, but I am saying that perhaps some scale should be put into place to prevent read-it-and-return-it purchases. Length as a function of time vs. return window? Track the location the user reached and disallow returns after a certain point? (You read 90%+ of the book and want to return it? Better have a really good reason, sir.)

I have no idea why I'm discussing it, though. Amazon's keeping their policy regardless of what anyone says. The majority--the customers--support it (or an even longer window), and they're the ones filling Amazon's pockets.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

I have actually had reader*s* email me and tell me how much they enjoyed my book -- quick light read -- they were even able to return it and 'buy' the next one (they are only 99 cents each) which I'm sure they will return, so it is more like a borrow. Shhh.... don't tell Amazon.

They think they are pulling one over on a huge company.

Never dawns on them they just took money away from me and then bragged about it to me. 

There are always going to be people that do things like that. I just smile and move on.

Yes, some will cheat. But most people are great and have been kind to me and I'm not going to let a very small minority ruin my day.

Sheila


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

_Sheila_ said:


> I have actually had reader*s* email me and tell me how much they enjoyed my book -- quick light read -- they were even able to return it and 'buy' the next one (they are only 99 cents each) which I'm sure they will return, so it is more like a borrow. Shhh.... don't tell Amazon.
> 
> They think they are pulling one over on a huge company.
> 
> ...


Y'all are convincing me not to put out short works!


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

I have returned an ebook. It was listed as free. I let that tab sit open for a few (I always have multiple tabs) and this was around midnight. I bought it but apparently it had gone off free during that time I loaded the page and hit the buy button. I immediately returned it. I felt sorry for the author but I figured he would figure out the reason.

I have had only one return on my own ebooks. It was when I participated in a KB promo for Halloween and some of the books were listed as free (not mine). Someone probably thought mine was free as well, realized their mistake, and returned it. I was upset , but since I had done the same thing before, I got over it. I'll never again participate in a promo that includes free books, though.

Customers need a return policy at Amazon. I'm a customer as well as a supplier. My ebooks are short stories and a novelette, so I don't think length's the main reason people return ebooks. I list the word count and approximate page count in the blurb.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

Jan Strnad said:


> Y'all are convincing me not to put out short works!


My books are between 63,000 words and 75,000 words. =)

Sheila


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Point in fact on the issue, someone in amazon.de is going through and reading my whole Daddy Substitute series and then returning them.  I'm pretty sure it's all the same person since there's only one buyer of each.  The bundle of the first 3 chapters was purchased and returned, then #4 purchased and returned and now #5 has been purchased but not yet returned.  I'm sure that's coming.

Like I said, I know on the big scheme of things it's not worth putting any energy into getting upset about it.  It tends to be small potatoes.  But, dammit, those are my potatoes and I don't have a lot of potatoes at the moment.  ... I think it's the blatant abuse and disregard that's bothering me the most.  

*deep breath... finding my zen... letting it go*

Add on note:  As a protection against blatant abuse, it would be nice if a buyer wasn't allowed to purchase the other chapters of the same series surrounding a return at least not for a period of time.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> It tends to be small potatoes. But, dammit, those are my potatoes and I don't have a lot of potatoes at the moment. ... I think it's the blatant abuse and disregard that's bothering me the most.


1) If they could not read and return, they would not be buying in the first place. It's not a lost sale. It was always a non-sale.
2) If you get lucky, they mention it to a friend or two, and those DO become sales. (Though to be honest, you write in a genre people don't tend to talk about. Nothing to be done about that though.)


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> 2) If you get lucky, they mention it to a friend or two, and those DO become sales. (Though to be honest, you write in a genre people don't tend to talk about. Nothing to be done about that though.)


I like that thought. Good way to think about it.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

With series titles (and Amazon is SO BAD about tracking series as is, so they'd need to fix that) you'd want to put like a 14-30 day lock on them buying the other books in the series after a return.

They'd get a message saying something to the effect of "you returned a book in this series on {DATE}, you need to either re-purchase {RETURNED TITLE} or wait {X} days" and if they did re-purchase the first, it would be ineligible for returns.


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> With series titles (and Amazon is SO BAD about tracking series as is, so they'd need to fix that) you'd want to put like a 14-30 day lock on them buying the other books in the series after a return.
> 
> They'd get a message saying something to the effect of "you returned a book in this series on {DATE}, you need to either re-purchase {RETURNED TITLE} or wait {X} days" and if they did re-purchase the first, it would be ineligible for returns.


I agree.


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## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

Dalya said:


> It stings a little, but remember they were never truly sales.


This ^

I wish someone had said it so succinctly when I was starting out. I've learned to ignore returns but it wasn't easy when I first started self-publishing.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Lady Vine said:


> Well then it shouldn't be so easy to accidentally buy an ebook, just as it isn't easy to accidentally buy a boat. The other retailers don't have returns policies on ebooks because it isn't easy to buy a book by mistake. This is an Amazon problem. If most of the returns are accidental purchases then surely that's something Amazon should be addressing, right? You would think so. Also, if that really is the case then why have 7 days at all? Why not something like 24/48 hours?


What difference does it make? An accidental sale is not a sale either way. You don't think a theif could read a short story in 24 or 48 hours too? Honestly, anyone who wanted to read a story I wrote and couldn't afford it or didn't feel it was worth the price could just email me. I'd give them a copy. If they abuse the system instead, while I prefer otherwise, it's not a significant problem right now.



> Readers are now so used to seeing free plastered everywhere on Amazon that they're going to start expecting everything to be free, or see everything as overpriced.


Yep. I remember this is exactly what happened when libraries were introduced. People stopped buying books and stopped placing any value on them. Then publishers stopped publishing books, libraries closed down for lack of content, ebooks were never invented, and we all forgot how to read. 



> I do want it changed. 7 days is too much. It does hurt some shorts (erotica) more than novels (most people read shorts quicker than they do novels). It would help customers more if it wasn't so easy to accidentally buy a book. Abusers of the policy eventually get dealt with, though no one can say how many returns it will take for this to happen. Some of us also do very well on B&N, Apple, Smashwords, Allromance and Kobo, yet none of those stores have a returns policy.


If Amazon had the same policy, you would not see higher sales. Those non-customers would just find another way to steal what they are unwilling to pay for, or go without.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Lady Vine -- 30% is a huge return rate!!! I had issues with one of my shorts where I was getting something like a 50% return on it. I got some help on here and someone noticed that for them the text was coming up very pale. I made changes to the formatting based on that info and the returns of that story drastically dropped. I write erotica shorts so I feel that I'm a good baseline of comparison for you. 30% is a high return!


30% is nothing. In the software business many applications are tracked above 75% of users running unauthorized copies. Increased security does not put a significant dent in the piracy rate, nor does it significantly impact the volume of sales. (Every once in a while we shut down a whole swath of unauthorized copies that are being actively used on a daily basis. We never see a corresponding spike in sales.)

I've seen the estimates in the past, but forget the numbers, in regards to physical books. Each gets read far more than once per purchase. We're honestly in a pretty good system with how ebooks are consumed.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Honestly, I don't worry about returns. I accept that a very small minority of customers will attempt to game the system by read-and-returns. But I'm confident the honor system works pretty well overall. Why? Because Amazon wouldn't allow it not to. They're as aware as anybody of the risk of cheaters and they're too smart to allow themselves to be robbed blind. I'm sure they monitor the accounts of customers with a suspicious frequency of returns. 

I truly believe the vast majority of returns are accidental purchases, with the occasional return, especially for short works, coming from dissatisfied customers.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

C.C. Kelly said:


> Amazon has annual revenues of gazillions of dollars and has a customer base that exceeds the population of the planet...


Aliens.

They are among us.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

FWIW, I publish short fiction exclusively at this point and the only time I see returns on books is after I've run a free or bargain promo. Even then, we're talking maybe 5 returns for every 1000 free downloads or 100 sales. And I'm guessing that's most often due to people downloading after it's gone back to paid or regular price.

Do I wish Amazon had a shorter return policy? Sure I do. I think 7 days is a bit long for digital content that you receive instantaneously. But as long as they allow returns, someone, somewhere is going to game the system, no matter how short it is.

If I was getting a 30% return rate, I might feel differently. But I'm not too worried about it at this point. 

Hope that helps!

Rue


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

ingrid avluv said:


> "*Returning Kindle Books*
> 
> "Books you purchase from the Kindle Store are eligible for return and refund if we receive your request within seven days of the date of purchase. Once a refund is issued, you'll no longer have access to the book. To request a refund and return content, visit Manage Your Kindle, Click the Actions button next to the title you'd like to return, and select Return for refund, or contact customer service."
> 
> ...


Firstly, as others have noted, many people can read a full length novel in a day. I read at least one per day, often two. Secondly, Amazon polices their returns policy. Last year as a test we had a staff member who had little interest in eBooks sign up with Amazon, download a book per day then return one in four. In less than two weeks a warning letter arrived from Amazon and when she kept returning books they cancelled her account.

Amazon is neither the big boogie (book)man that many suppose, nor is it prone to allowing or introducing practices that will affect its bottom line. It is a well considered, well run business. It looks after its authors and its readers - it needs both.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Firstly, as others have noted, many people can read a full length novel in a day. I read at least one per day, often two. Secondly, Amazon polices their returns policy. Last year as a test we had a staff member who had little interest in eBooks sign up with Amazon, download a book per day then return one in four. In less than two weeks a warning letter arrived from Amazon and when she kept returning books they cancelled her account.
> 
> Amazon is neither the big boogie (book)man that many suppose, nor is it prone to allowing or introducing practices that will affect its bottom line. It is a well considered, well run business. It looks after its authors and its readers - it needs both.


That's great to know and I wondered how long it took. I had seen complaints from people who had their accounts cancelled but no one seemed to be sharing their return rate (on the customer end that is). Thanks!


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Point in fact on the issue, someone in amazon.de is going through and reading my whole Daddy Substitute series and then returning them. I'm pretty sure it's all the same person since there's only one buyer of each. The bundle of the first 3 chapters was purchased and returned, then #4 purchased and returned and now #5 has been purchased but not yet returned. I'm sure that's coming.


I suspect I've got the same serial returner dogging my more risqué titles at Amazon DE. There's a sale, followed by a return the very next day. Then another sale in the same genre, followed by another return. If it's the same guy (or gal), I hope Amazon catches him or her soon.


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

CoraBuhlert said:


> I suspect I've got the same serial returner dogging my more risqué titles at Amazon DE. There's a sale, followed by a return the very next day. Then another sale in the same genre, followed by another return. If it's the same guy (or gal), I hope Amazon catches him or her soon.


Fingers crossed!


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## G_Bingley (Mar 7, 2013)

Add me to Team Pro-Returns. I also write short stories - erotica at that - and I suspect some people read a story one time, enjoy it, and then return it. I don't care. Amazon's awesome customer service is why I have been buying for them for years, which is way longer than I've been published. I know I'm not the only super loyal Amazon customer, and all the other super loyal customers are my potential readers.

If they did something to the return policy that cut my returns in half but scared off customers and dropped my total sales by 20% I'd be screwed. I'll take the generous (to customers) policy and my 10% rate even if some of those 10% read the whole story and decided to get their money back just because. As others have said I also hope if someone doesn't like one of my tales and is able to easily get their money back they'll then just go on their merry way without leaving a negative review (granted, thus far my only negative review was from a promo copy and he griped in the review that he wasn't allowed to return it.)


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## Fahid (Dec 23, 2012)

There is a positive side to refunds, but for short stories absolutely it hurts my return rate is 31% blah, got some good reviews some bad (because they don't realize it's a serial...a continuing story). There should be a policy for short stories as being AS IS.

I can download a short story every day for 365 days a year and not pay a penny lol


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> Lady Vine -- 30% is a huge return rate!!! I had issues with one of my shorts where I was getting something like a 50% return on it. I got some help on here and someone noticed that for them the text was coming up very pale. I made changes to the formatting based on that info and the returns of that story drastically dropped. I write erotica shorts so I feel that I'm a good baseline of comparison for you. 30% is a high return!


There's nothing wrong with the font, it's been checked. I'll reiterate that the returns only began once the second book in the series was released. The sales on the first and second in the series are almost identical before you subtract the returns from the first book. Returns on the second book? Less than 5%. That was why I contacted Amazon about it, because it looked too suspicious.



Mathew Reuther said:


> With series titles (and Amazon is SO BAD about tracking series as is, so they'd need to fix that) you'd want to put like a 14-30 day lock on them buying the other books in the series after a return.
> 
> They'd get a message saying something to the effect of "you returned a book in this series on {DATE}, you need to either re-purchase {RETURNED TITLE} or wait {X} days" and if they did re-purchase the first, it would be ineligible for returns.


I like this idea. I also think that Amazon should make it clear from the get go that serial abusers will have their accounts suspended. I think that would make people a little less likely to try it.

I've seen a couple of people mention that they prefer the return to the bad review. I personally don't. If the review babbles on about how much the reader disliked the book, any prospective buyer will see this for what it is -- subjective. That's unlikely to affect your sales. However, if the review talks about spelling mistakes, problems with grammar, formatting or whatever, I'd prefer to know that there was a problem so I could fix it.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> "In my opinion Amazon.com's policies overall favor customers, not suppliers. Perhaps that is why both Walmart and Target no longer carry Amazon.com products. They booted Amazon.com out. There has to be a good reason."


Of course their policies favor consumers. That's how they make their money. That's how they get market share. That's how they compete.

Suppliers use Amazon to compete with other suppliers, and to reach markets they normally couldn't get. Amazon doesn't have to compete for suppliers. The suppliers come to Amazon.

Walmart and Target are both competing with Amazon for consumer's dollars. Neither is an Amazon supplier. That's a good enough reason to not carry Amazon products. Target teamed up with Apple last year. They were putting Apple stores in Targets. Not sure how it worked out, but that's when they stopped selling Amazon products.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

DarkScribe said:


> Firstly, as others have noted, many people can read a full length novel in a day. I read at least one per day, often two. Secondly, Amazon polices their returns policy. Last year as a test we had a staff member who had little interest in eBooks sign up with Amazon, download a book per day then return one in four. In less than two weeks a warning letter arrived from Amazon and when she kept returning books they cancelled her account.


That's interesting information. Thank you for sharing it.


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Lady Vine said:


> There's nothing wrong with the font, it's been checked. I'll reiterate that the returns only began once the second book in the series was released. The sales on the first and second in the series are almost identical before you subtract the returns from the first book. Returns on the second book? Less than 5%. That was why I contacted Amazon about it, because it looked too suspicious.


Well.. here's a big correction on my part. I got to looking at my numbers for this month a little closer and with a different eye. My return rate for this month is 25% when taking into consideration all of the amazon.countries. However, when I just look at Amazon.com (US) sales, the return rate is a little short of 6%. Very interesting.


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