# You Aren't Writing Enough SF



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I've been hearing some rumblings, hither and thither, about Mil SF and adjacent subgenres becoming more competitive over the last year or two. That may be true so far as it goes, but don't believe the hype: I don't think we're anywhere near saturating the markets for spaceships and powered armor.

First I'll give an overview of my methodology, then discuss some findings, then summarize some high-level takeaways in the TLR section. Please feel free to skim or skip.

*Methodology*
Periodically I poke around my pet Amazon subgenres. Just curious what it takes to get onto the visible lists, how many titles are coming out, that sort of thing. This time around I checked the following subs:

Fantasy > Coming of Age
Fantasy > Epic
Sci-Fi > Alien Invasion
Sci-Fi > Colonization
Sci-Fi > First Contact
Sci-Fi > Galactic Empire
Sci-Fi > Military
Sci-Fi > Military > Space Fleet
Sci-Fi > Military > Space Marine
Sci-Fi > Space Exploration
Sci-Fi > Space Opera
I apologize for having such a narrow, subjective list, but that's just how I roll.

Within each sub, I tracked:

Number of < 30 Day releases
Number of < 90 Day releases
Number of Coming Soon releases
Best Seller overall sales rank at ranks 1, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 within the sub
HNR overall sales rank at ranks 1, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 within the sub
Our goal is to understand 1) how many books are being published within the subgenre, 2) how many sales it takes to stick on the Best Seller list in within the sub, and 3) how many sales it takes to stick on the HNR list within the sub.

The sales that a book gets at ranks 1 and 20 should give us a sense of the sub's ceiling, while the numbers of new releases and the worse sales ranks should give us a sense of how difficult it is to break in. In other words: how long is the tail? Our ideal genre sells a ton of books if you're near the top, but offers less established authors a lengthy, poorly ranked tail that makes it relatively easy to break into the lists.

Even for established authors, a long tail could indicate an underserved market. If a handful of books are selling dozens or hundreds of copies a day and it still only takes a sub-500,000 rank to break into that subgenre's HNRs, my guess is that there's lots of room to grow.

*Findings*
Lots of familiar faces in these author bios! You guys are crushing it.

Fantasy is, has been, and will remain a murderer's row. Coming of Age seems pretty stable, but Epic Fantasy has been getting even more competitive. You've gotta be sub-3,500 to have a shot at breaking into Best Sellers in either sub. The good news is that you can top out in single- or double-digit sales...assuming you make it past the tradpub studs.

Where things get a little more interesting with Fantasy is that Coming of Age still isn't seeing nearly the same volume of new releases as Epic, and it's much easier to get into HNR with Coming of Age. Both top out in double-digit sales ranks, but we're talking sub-45,000 to get into HNR with Epic and sub-250,000 to get into HNR with CoA. About 500 new CoA books get published every three months, versus 1,500 Epic Fantasies. The CoA releases have been getting a little more frequent, but I still see an opportunity there. Makes a lot of sense to go that route if you're trying to break into Fantasy (good luck!).

Turning to Sci-Fi, there's a ton of overlap here. All of those subs share just a handful of #1 ranked books, and one title is holding down the top HNR spot in Alien Invasion, Colonization, First Contact, Galactic Empire, Space Fleet, Space Marine, _and_ Space Exploration. Publish anything in that vicinity and you're easily eligible to top out in the low triple-digit sales ranks. You still need a solid four-digit sales rank to get into Best Sellers here, but it's more like sub-5,500 than sub-3,500 for Fantasy. Colonization is more like sub-8,000, and Alien Invasion and Space Exploration are around 6,500, whereas Space Opera is about as competitive as Fantasy.

Tails are different. Want to break into Alien Invasion, Colonization, or Space Exploration? Crack the high 400,000s and you're probably golden. At the other end of the spectrum, Space Opera is around 80,000 and catchall Military SF is 40,000 (the only HNR list from my sample that's more competitive than Epic Fantasy, incidentally). First Contact and Space Fleet are the most competitive after that, asking about 150,000 to break into HNR, and finally you've got Galactic Empire and Space Marine around 300,000 (a bit less competitive than Coming of Age Fantasy).

The middles of the lists don't have too many surprises, except for Space Marine. Despite having one of the longest tails on the board, it's very steep and top-heavy in HNRs. That's exactly what we're looking for: a genre that sells a ton at the top end, but makes it easy to break into high visibility lists at the bottom end.

New Release and Coming Soon volume correlates my impression that Space Marine may be underserved. It's dead last in pre-orders, with just 30 currently on sale. Space Fleet, Alien Invasion, Colonization, and Galactic Empire are similarly underrepresented in the 30s of pre-orders. Space Opera and catchall Mil SF are right up there with Epic Fantasy.

Looking at the last 90 days of releases, Colonization, Galactic Empire, Space Marine, and Space Exploration are all in the low 300s of releases. Alien Invasion and Space Fleet are high 300s. First Contact, catchall Mil SF, and Space Opera are 800s (Coming of Age Fantasy is high 400s and Epic Fantasy is 1,500, for comparison).

In terms of trends, releases are up across the board and Best Seller ranks are definitely more competitive. Nothing for it, I'm afraid, but don't believe anybody who tells you that these markets are saturated. At this pace, it'll take many years before they get anywhere near as overpopulated as something like Urban Fantasy. Now, perhaps SF readers are a smaller community. Perhaps we should ask all the authors who've been making mints out of these subgenres since before Chris Fox made it cool. I think there's still a lot of unsatisfied demand for us to fill.

*TLR*
Fantasy's tough. Especially when you consider that it wants longer books than SF, it's hard to justify that market over lower hanging fruit in Mil SF if you're torn between the two (there are _dozens_ of us! Literally dozens!). A strong Coming of Age angle could help you break out.

We're not publishing enough Space Marine books. Alien Invasion, Colonization, and Space Exploration could also be underserved themes. First Contact, Space Fleet, and especially Space Opera are markedly harder to break into. They won't differentiate you as well.

Looking at the current lay of the land, asking myself which SFF market to write to, I think Space Marine is a clear winner--which is exactly the same conclusion this exercise has led me to for years. You can take your pick of adjacent subgenres, but nail the Space Marine angle, do pre-orders to spend as much time as possible on the cushy Space Marine HNR list (Annie Jacoby got me thinking about this in her recent thread--Space Marine is a much softer HNR than the one she's been targeting), and have some fun.

Just thought I'd share.


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## IWFerguson (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank you so much for sharing your research. I especially enjoyed it because I'm working on a coming-of-age fantasy.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Interesting data. My stuff has some military Sci-Fi elements, but the characters are mercenaries. Does that semi-qualify as space marine? Or in that genre are they looking for the whole boot camp experience?


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

No look into post-apoc sci fi?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Nice post, thanks! I'll add a tiny addition without nearly the thought put into it, just recent observation--Sci fi western is wide open for mining. Take out the headless abs covers, the clear romances, and the other 'do not belongs' and you've got an open market. Whether there are readers there remains to be seen. Still not sure what the line is between 'hungry underserved market' and 'underserved market but no readers'.


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## Tulonsae (Apr 12, 2015)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

Tulonsae said:


> Where do you find sci if western? I went looking in the categories (as a reader) and it didn't even display western that I could find. And no western under sci fi.


Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Westerns > Science Fiction

You'll also find western horror, western fantasy, and all other varieties of weird western hanging out there.


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## Tulonsae (Apr 12, 2015)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Tulonsae said:


> Thank you.


Also, google "amazon bestseller western science fiction". Boom.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Ooof, very few of those western SF look like they ave any SF in them at all.

Interesting findings.  I wonder how much of it has to do with market share.  There are a lot more fantasy readers than SF readers (at least from what I have seen), which means it could probably support more authors, and hence more authors try for it.

Myself, I write across a broad spectrum of SF/F (and some day may be happy enough with some of it to set it loose on an unsuspecting public.)  Maybe, on reading this, I should focus more on the SF end of the spectrum.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Thanks for the analysis, Dolphin. Very interesting.  (As a fantasy author trying to figure out what to write for my next series.)


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Ooh, my in-development is inter-dimensional alien invasion. I should pop up something to test the waters.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

I found placing the The Killers Amongst Us (Chimera Dawn Chronicles) in a sci-fi sub genre difficult.

In the end I went for* invasion and colonisation*, but it reads like a standard crime thriller apart from the front matter and until the revelation which includes aliens as shifters who are chimeras with factions as types of werewolf, or cat creatures.

I guess it's a little like an X-files story, with the aliens having being here all along and actually recorded throughout history.

At different times it's had good good chart positions and it's had decent reviews, but it's floundering just now. One thing it has done which my other books haven't to a great extent, is that whenever I promote it, I get a flood of mailing list sign ups, so I'm 30,000 words into the second book in the series, The Orphans of the Gods, but the 1st story is standalone with its own ending.

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #365,234 Paid in Kindle Store. The killers Amongst Us 
(See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)

#342 in *Books* > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Mystery > Supernatural > Werewolves & Shifters
#1144 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Colonization
#1438 in *Books* > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Colonization

As you can see, I have more of a chance of charting in werewolves and shifters than I do with Colonization.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Goodness. I'm just amazed at all the work you did! Thanks for posting about it, it's been very helpful. I think it bodes well for my in-progress colonization novel. Yay!


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## mbnels (May 10, 2017)

Great Post!  I have a Space Opera that could be discombobulated to become Space Marine...hmmm.  Thanks so much!


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## JohnRickett (Jun 20, 2016)

Question about tails. (Researching market availability/saturation is new to me, but something I'm very interested in)

When looking at the potential subs for my WIP, (Scifi > Genetic Engineering / cyberpunk) the #100 sales rank in those subs are around #15,000. The number #1 rank in genetic Engineering is #46 overall. 

So, < 15k is approximately what I'd need to top the 100 list within that sub?

Whereas the HNR for those genre's are #346 (for the #1 sub spot) and #350,000 (for the 100 sub spot)

Do we figure out the tail based on #1 sub vs #100 HNR? (And their current overall ranks) Is the larger the gap, the better here?

Given those figures, does it look like a decent market to target? (If so/not, why?)


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Interesting data. My stuff has some military Sci-Fi elements, but the characters are mercenaries. Does that semi-qualify as space marine? Or in that genre are they looking for the whole boot camp experience?


Boot camp might be the #1 trope for Space Marine. Even going back to genre-founding works like _The Forever War_, _Starship Troopers_, and _Ender's Game_, training is a huge part of it. That said, it'd typically be a box you tick in Book 1, then don't revisit (although, speaking from my own military experience, there's certainly no reason your characters couldn't wind up back in schools later on). Apart from HEA in Romance, I'm not even sure that any tropes are absolutely necessary. Just keep in mind that from an optimization standpoint, you probably want to hit the trope if you can.

For a great example of this playing out, check the reviews for _Earth Alone_ by Daniel Arenson on Amazon and Goodreads. What you'll see is that a lot of people are super into the boot camp trope(s)...even though they might've preferred if it wasn't 80% of the book. A lot of the critical reviews focus on how that was excessive, and it dragged down the pacing. Some are even tired of boot camp stories altogether. It's good food for thought.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

EvanPickering said:


> No look into post-apoc sci fi?


No, I'm sorry but that wasn't one I was interested in exploring. Hopefully the methodology gives a sense of how to explore your own preferred genres. Chris Fox has recommended similar exercises when deciding where to Write to Market, and that's what led him to his current Mil SF run.

Of the top of my head, my recollection is that Dystopian and Post-Apocalyptic are two of the most crowded genres in SF. They're lucrative if you can get noticed.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Jim Johnson said:


> Also, google "amazon bestseller western science fiction". Boom.


Honestly, this is the best way to find HNRs and lots of other things on Amazon.



A. S. Warwick said:


> Ooof, very few of those western SF look like they ave any SF in them at all.
> 
> Interesting findings. I wonder how much of it has to do with market share. There are a lot more fantasy readers than SF readers (at least from what I have seen), which means it could probably support more authors, and hence more authors try for it.
> 
> Myself, I write across a broad spectrum of SF/F (and some day may be happy enough with some of it to set it loose on an unsuspecting public.) Maybe, on reading this, I should focus more on the SF end of the spectrum.


I'm kind of surprised people aren't printing cash with _Firefly_ knockoffs. SFF fans are a patient lot when it comes to less original, but satisfying riffs on their favorite tropes. _The Dark Tower_ is coming out soon. Could be a good time for Western Fantasy too.

I think there's a couple main differences that impact your visibility in Fantasy vs. SF.

First, Epic Fantasy actually has more tradpub competition. There's an abundance of big names like GRRM, Patrick Rothfuss, Brandon Sanderson, Neil Gaiman, and J.K. Rowling who will bully you off the lists. The real heavy hitters in SF are mostly classics like Heinlein or Orson Scott Card, or they were always kind of midlisters like David Weber. Tradpub doesn't do much SF these days. Occasionally someone like Ann Leckie will break through, publish a critically acclaimed series, then fade away while she spends years on her next offering. Tradpub's ceded a lot of SF to indies--especially far-future subgenres.

Second, I think Amazon's subgenres are actually more favorable for SF than Fantasy. Publish an Epic, Coming of Age Fantasy and you'll be in competition with things like faerie tales and torrid werewolf/vampire stories that are aimed at a completely different audience. I don't think that's as big an issue in SF. There's a few more distinct subgenres, but ultimately a ton of legit overlap between things like Alien Invasion, Colonization, Galactic Empire, Space Marine, &c. Get visible on any of those lists and you should be able to appeal to the majority of readers who're perusing them.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Decon said:


> As you can see, I have more of a chance of charting in werewolves and shifters than I do with Colonization.


I think Chris Fox's experience with werewolves was kinda similar. He wasn't really hitting the popular werewolf tropes, and he wasn't really hitting the associated SF tropes either. Chris actually had another series that tried to riff on X-Files, and it struggled to find a place too. That's not to say they can't be great books, of course! They're just not written to market.

With both Colonization and Alien Invasion, I think there's a strong emphasis on far-future settings. Alien Invasion could be near-future invasion by a far more advanced species, but it also tends to take a Dystopian and/or Post-Apocalyptic slant: society as we know it is transformed by the event. Tough to find a home for an invasion thriller with a more constrained scope.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Wow, great stuff, Dolphin! Amazing work! Hmm, now I'm gonna have to figure out how to incorporate some of those SF subgenres into cozies


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Great thread, Dolphin. Thank you for taking the time to delve into this. I'm finding it helpful.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

JohnRickett said:


> Question about tails. (Researching market availability/saturation is new to me, but something I'm very interested in)


Yeah, you've definitely got the right idea. Looks like a good market to target! I'll add a couple thoughts.

First, the length of the tail matters, but so does its taper. Steampunk sells well at the top--sales rank #333 at 1 on the Best Sellers--and it has a very long tail--#63,254 to hit 100. That's _suspiciously_ long. If we dig deeper, we find that it only takes #10,500 to break into the top 20 of Steampunk, and #24,000 to hit top 40. That's not a tail--that's a wasteland.

A comparison would be Wayne's beloved Sea Adventure, where 1-100 are ranked #490 to #31,766, but you've got to hit about #5,500 to break into top 20 and #11,000 to break into top 40. It's a broader, healthier market almost from the top to the bottom. I wouldn't recommend going into it unless you can match some of Wayne's unique qualifications, but he's shown that there's enough meat on that bone.

Genetic Engineering and Cyberpunk are even healthier, if more competitive, so I think you're in good shape. Just wanted to illustrate that you need a market to capitalize on visibility.

Second, make sure you're familiar with the tropes in Genetic Engineering and Cyberpunk. A.G. Riddle's #46 ranked technothriller isn't necessarily what people would assume when they hear "genetic engineering." There's a lot more to it than just saying all your Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers and double-dipping in both subs. You're probably well aware, of course. I just wanted to point it out.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

wheart said:


> Wow, great stuff, Dolphin! Amazing work! Hmm, now I'm gonna have to figure out how to incorporate some of those SF subgenres into cozies


Space techno-witches solve mysteries on far-flung colonies menaced by aliens? I think it could take the Space Opera world by storm. Just imagine the little space suits for their cat sidekicks!


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Dolphin said:


> Space techno-witches solve mysteries on far-flung colonies menaced by aliens? I think it could take the Space Opera world by storm. Just imagine the little space suits for their cat sidekicks!


LOL! Well dagnabbit, Dolphin, you've inspired me!


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## JohnRickett (Jun 20, 2016)

Dolphin said:


> Yeah, you've definitely got the right idea. Looks like a good market to target! I'll add a couple thoughts.
> 
> First, the length of the tail matters, but so does its taper. Steampunk sells well at the top--sales rank #333 at 1 on the Best Sellers--and it has a very long tail--#63,254 to hit 100. That's _suspiciously_ long. If we dig deeper, we find that it only takes #10,500 to break into the top 20 of Steampunk, and #24,000 to hit top 40. That's not a tail--that's a wasteland.


My interpretation of that would be that Steampunk isn't selling well as a market overall. Could that an accurate assumption based on those rankings?



Dolphin said:


> Second, make sure you're familiar with the tropes in Genetic Engineering and Cyberpunk. A.G. Riddle's #46 ranked technothriller isn't necessarily what people would assume when they hear "genetic engineering." There's a lot more to it than just saying all your Space Marines are genetically engineered super soldiers and double-dipping in both subs. You're probably well aware, of course. I just wanted to point it out.


I noticed that about Riddle's book too. Kind of threw me off a bit. It's really insightful, (thank you) that even though his book is #46, it might not mean books/tropes that fit more solidly in that market might not fare as well, and it might be wise to at least find a #2, #3 ect that's more firmly cyberpunk and check the rankings on that.

Thank you for elaborating, and for the educational reply!


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## Key (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, mine took a few years to write, launched with a good cover, was in KU when it was working well for many people...and didn't sell worth a darn, so yeah...nope.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> I think Chris Fox's experience with werewolves was kinda similar. He wasn't really hitting the popular werewolf tropes, and he wasn't really hitting the associated SF tropes either. Chris actually had another series that tried to riff on X-Files, and it struggled to find a place too. That's not to say they can't be great books, of course! They're just not written to market.
> 
> With both Colonization and Alien Invasion, I think there's a strong emphasis on far-future settings. Alien Invasion could be near-future invasion by a far more advanced species, but it also tends to take a Dystopian and/or Post-Apocalyptic slant: society as we know it is transformed by the event. Tough to find a home for an invasion thriller with a more constrained scope.


Yeah, trying to be original and building a kind of a plausibility for sci-fi in the here and now is tougher than writing to market, but I'll plough on to create at least a trilogy.

The first book published centers around a small mid-west town, defines the the creatures and the two factions, two opposing government agency factions and all their intentions, together the main characters within a kidnapping crime plot.

The second book will deal with infiltration into the upper echelons of society and government by a faction of the creatures around a plot to tidy up a loose end that on the face of it was tied up in the first book, together with the realization they are in every State and not anhilated. On the face of the evil faction will be defeated and leave earth.

The third will full on colonisation/invasion of the US as they return and start culling the population. and maybe a fourth on the fightback which I guess will be dystioian in nature.

We can only but try. I couldn't write to market to save my life.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

JohnRickett said:


> My interpretation of that would be that Steampunk isn't selling well as a market overall. Could that an accurate assumption based on those rankings?


Yeah, I think so. For some reason there's not a large audience on Amazon, at the very least.



JohnRickett said:


> I noticed that about Riddle's book too. Kind of threw me off a bit. It's really insightful, (thank you) that even though his book is #46, it might not mean books/tropes that fit more solidly in that market might not fare as well, and it might be wise to at least find a #2, #3 ect that's more firmly cyberpunk and check the rankings on that.
> 
> Thank you for elaborating, and for the educational reply!


You bet! Remember too that Riddle's an outlier. He's been crushing it for years now and has a very particular set of skills.

There's probably no substitute for being well read in your genre, but one way to check or deepen your understanding of the tropes is to pore over reviews on Amazon or Goodreads (even for books you've already read). You're especially looking for the longer, more detailed reviews, maybe with a few nits to pick. Think about the critical reviews critically: did the reader dislike this element because the author screwed it up, or because the book was a bad match for the reader?

An example would be that Riddle gets both compliments and complaints about all the scientific detail he goes into, but the preponderance of comments praise his research and attention to detail. Scientific detail is one of the genre expectations, just like taste-the-dungeon worldbuilding is an expectation in most Epic Fantasy. People who quit reading the _The Eye of the World_ because Robert Jordan can't stop describing things were never going to make it through 3.3m words anyway.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Decon said:


> We can only but try. I couldn't write to market to save my life.


I hear you. Life's too short to write to market if your heart's not in it.

One of the reasons I'm interested in deferring Epic Fantasy is that those stories as I currently understand them are...not consistent in their tropes. I'm not sure how many people will follow a story that starts out more or less as a lighthearted faerie story and then rapidly descends into carnage and themes that would be more at home in grimdark. I'm not sure the first novel's main _plot_ begins in earnest before Act 3. Might not actually begin in the first book at all. Makes things real tricky when you have to ask readers to give you that kind of patience as you work around to core tropes they're expecting.

I'll figure out how to get that story to work, but it'll take time. I'm trying to think carefully about market research so that I can cut my teeth on something a little more commercial in the meantime.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> I'm kind of surprised people aren't printing cash with _Firefly_ knockoffs. SFF fans are a patient lot when it comes to less original, but satisfying riffs on their favorite tropes. _The Dark Tower_ is coming out soon. Could be a good time for Western Fantasy too.


Yeah, I may need to accelerate my plans to relaunch my fantasy western series with fresh covers and blurbs.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> Just imagine the little space suits for their cat sidekicks!


No, no, no! Don't be giving people ideas. Cats in space is mine! I'm not finished with mine yet so I don't want to look like a copycat.


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## Some Random Guy (Jan 16, 2016)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> No, no, no! Don't be giving people ideas. Cats in space is mine! I'm not finished with mine yet so I don't want to look like a copycat.


A copycat.... IN SPACE!!!!


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

Dolphin said:


> No, I'm sorry but that wasn't one I was interested in exploring. Hopefully the methodology gives a sense of how to explore your own preferred genres. Chris Fox has recommended similar exercises when deciding where to Write to Market, and that's what led him to his current Mil SF run.
> 
> Of the top of my head, my recollection is that Dystopian and Post-Apocalyptic are two of the most crowded genres in SF. They're lucrative if you can get noticed.


Haha okay no worries dude! Thank you for sharing info on the work you did, I appreciate it. I was just curious because PA is my genre ATM so I wanted to know


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> No, no, no! Don't be giving people ideas. Cats in space is mine! I'm not finished with mine yet so I don't want to look like a copycat.


Hey, Dan, there's room enough for more than one space cat sidekick . You'll probably finish your book before me anyway, so no worries, lol. Okay, I'm off.

Oh, and Dolphin, did you get my bucket of fish?


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## Anonymouse (Apr 27, 2015)

Great post, Dolphin.  Thanks.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> Space techno-witches solve mysteries on far-flung colonies menaced by aliens? I think it could take the Space Opera world by storm. Just imagine the little space suits for their cat sidekicks!


Cover art just has to be retro style so you have cats in those big bubble helmets 

And cats (of a type) in space words from Weber...


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

A. S. Warwick said:


> Cover art just has to be retro style so you have cats in those big bubble helmets
> 
> And cats (of a type) in space words from Weber...


Well, I just hope there's no rule about having the body suit in hot pink! My cat sidekick has gotta look rad


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## Kal241 (Jan 11, 2017)

My own work has a lot of space marine elements, yet the character who embodies these tropes would openly scoff at the genre (the character in question is Army, not Marines; yes, people, there is a HUGE difference). Too bad "Space Soldier" doesn't have its own genre. Otherwise, it's a bit of a hodgepodge of sci-fi thriller, mil SF, political SF, and even has a few horror elements. But no romance. No time for frakking when the bullets are flying!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Kal241 said:


> My own work has a lot of space marine elements, yet the character who embodies these tropes would openly scoff at the genre (the character in question is Army, not Marines; yes, people, there is a HUGE difference). Too bad "Space Soldier" doesn't have its own genre. Otherwise, it's a bit of a hodgepodge of sci-fi thriller, mil SF, political SF, and even has a few horror elements. But no romance. No time for frakking when the bullets are flying!


You know, one of the things I worry about with one of my Space Marine stories is that fraternization is a huge driver for the plot. Like, the idea that sexual fraternization is _wrong_ and _irregular_ and potentially a _career-ending mistake_ instead of something that just, you know, happens. All the time. Oops, slept with my subordinate(s) again. I'm such a maverick, tee hee.

I'm a little worried that it'll come across as penny ante stakes, given how many allegedly military fictions trivialize the entire topic. I also wonder if any of the simulationists will read long enough to see that it's treated realistically, or if they'll discard the books as soon as they realize there's a romantic B Story.


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## Kal241 (Jan 11, 2017)

Dolphin said:


> You know, one of the things I worry about with one of my Space Marine stories is that fraternization is a huge driver for the plot. Like, the idea that sexual fraternization is _wrong_ and _irregular_ and potentially a _career-ending mistake_ instead of something that just, you know, happens. All the time. Oops, slept with my subordinate(s) again. I'm such a maverick, tee hee.
> 
> I'm a little worried that it'll come across as penny ante stakes, given how many allegedly military fictions trivialize the entire topic. I also wonder if any of the simulationists will read long enough to see that it's treated realistically, or if they'll discard the books as soon as they realize there's a romantic B Story.


You aren't alone there. I remember Starship Troopers being largely driven by a love story between Rico and his two-girl harem, rather than the need to kill the bugs, for a good amount of the story. Did Rico face a court-martial for sleeping with a subordinate (which he does, and his senior officer catches him in the act)? No. He only had to watch her die in his arms, which is bad, but not nearly as bad as it gets in reality.

In real life, fraternization between different ranks can be taken very seriously, to the point of senior officers getting kicked out after a nasty court-martial. _And you don't even have to be a current member of the military for it to come back and bite you._ I recall one example where a former Canadian brigadier-general was called back into a military courtroom, fined, and symbolically demoted to colonel for sleeping with a corporal and stopping past investigations into it. And I did hear a rumor of a high-ranking officer in another service getting demoted down to _private_ and dishonorably discharged on a rape charge. Nepotism issues aside, the military comes after you hard for stuff like this. It's almost always a career-ender.

I chose to omit romance from my own work because there really was no place for it. I mean, what are they to do? Go at it amidst a firefight? Kind of hard to handle a rifle one-handed, not to mention focus on putting rounds downrange LOL


----------



## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

Great post!  Thanks for putting in the legwork.


----------



## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for the data, Dolphin. I'd toss you some herring if I had some.


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

What's HNR?


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

VayneLine said:


> What's HNR?


Hot New Releases. A list on amazon for each genre list with the top new releases, usually within 30 days or so (I think).


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Kal241 said:


> _And you don't even have to be a current member of the military for it to come back and bite you._ I recall one example where a former Canadian brigadier-general was called back into a military courtroom, fined, and symbolically demoted to colonel for sleeping with a corporal and stopping past investigations into it. And I did hear a rumor of a high-ranking officer in another service getting demoted down to _private_ and dishonorably discharged on a rape charge. Nepotism issues aside, the military comes after you hard for stuff like this. It's almost always a career-ender.


Good old Canada, taking care of business. That's a pretty striking example.

_The Forever War_ might've been even worse than _Starship Troopers_, of course. They try to rationalize it with lax attitudes towards sexuality in the future, but I've never bought it. It's always come off more as wish fulfillment than anything else (particularly when there's a harem). Certainly easy to see why commanders would be expected to maintain impartiality--or hell, at the very least the _appearance_ of impartiality--even in space.

Maybe some of the pushback against allowing women into combat arms in the U.S. military has been from guys who read Mil SF and took the sexual mores as a grim warning.


----------



## Adrien Walker (Sep 11, 2014)

Excellent research. Very helpful.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

555aaa said:


> I'd toss you some herring if I had some.


I've got some red ones. I'll toss them in the bucket on your behalf.


----------



## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Kal241 said:


> You aren't alone there. I remember Starship Troopers being largely driven by a love story between Rico and his two-girl harem, rather than the need to kill the bugs, for a good amount of the story. Did Rico face a court-martial for sleeping with a subordinate (which he does, and his senior officer catches him in the act)? No. He only had to watch her die in his arms, which is bad, but not nearly as bad as it gets in reality.


That was the movie version, which had zero to do with the book beyond a few names. Nothing even close to that happened in the book.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

Great post, OP.  

For any interested parties: on his most recent appearance on the SFF Marketing Podcast, Chris Fox predicted 'Military Fantasy' might be a fertile direction to head in. If you're looking for a market niche.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Benjamin Douglas said:


> For any interested parties: on his most recent appearance on the SFF Marketing Podcast, Chris Fox predicted 'Military Fantasy' might be a fertile direction to head in. If you're looking for a market niche.


Right! I think there's still time before that one becomes more established. Amazon hasn't even got a Kindle Store category for it yet, and the Best Seller ranks are puny. There's not even enough HNRs to fill the list! Anything you publish will be a Hot New Release by default.

It'll be an interesting market to watch. Could be that if we build it, they will come.


----------



## TheLemontree (Sep 12, 2015)

Dolphin said:


> Space techno-witches solve mysteries on far-flung colonies menaced by aliens? I think it could take the Space Opera world by storm. Just imagine the little space suits for their cat sidekicks!


A space station certainly ticks the cozy box of having a limited cast and geographical location.

I'm seeing definite possibilities here.

Anne Mccaffrey's Talents series meets Miss Marple.

And the cats in their little space suits definitely remind me of Weber.

[Writes note to self: space cat cozy mystery. I also have a note that says 'psychic talking ghost cat (who knits) cozy mystery'. You're welcome.]


----------



## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm guessing there's going to be an opportunity here for a "Cats in Space!" group promo.  LOL.


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## edgeofspeech (Apr 9, 2016)

Dolphin said:


> Genetic Engineering and Cyberpunk are even healthier, if more competitive, so I think you're in good shape. Just wanted to illustrate that you need a market to capitalize on visibility.


I'd just like to point out that a very large portion of Cyberpunk's top 100 list is dominated by LitRPG. More classic or traditional type cyberpunk is currently competing against a different sub genre in it's own ranking sphere. Speaking from experience, this has proven to be a challenge one should be wary of when considering market potential.

LitRPG and Cyberpunk have very different tropes and expectations.


----------



## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

edgeofspeech said:


> I'd just like to point out that a very large portion of Cyberpunk's top 100 list is dominated by LitRPG. More classic or traditional type cyberpunk is currently competing against a different sub genre in it's own ranking sphere. Speaking from experience, this has proven to be a challenge one should be wary of when considering market potential.
> 
> LitRPG and Cyberpunk have very different tropes and expectations.


Yes I agree. Amazon really needs to make a LitRPG sub cat and get that stuff out of cyberpunk. In recent memory, when it commes to indie books, I can only think of your series, Liquid Cool and The New Prometheus that qualify as true cyberpunk.


----------



## JohnRickett (Jun 20, 2016)

edgeofspeech said:


> I'd just like to point out that a very large portion of Cyberpunk's top 100 list is dominated by LitRPG. More classic or traditional type cyberpunk is currently competing against a different sub genre in it's own ranking sphere. Speaking from experience, this has proven to be a challenge one should be wary of when considering market potential.
> 
> LitRPG and Cyberpunk have very different tropes and expectations.


I can understand the potential overlap, especially since many litRPGs focus on dystopias/utopias where technology allows people to enter virtual worlds.

Conversely, my cyberpunk WIP has some litRPG elements, without leaning on those tropes too heavily. Characters compete in augmented-reality games that are used to distract and control the populace. At one point, I had considered adding more Character-progress/Loot/Stat-increases, to place it more firmly in litRPG-but I think it would detract, not add, to the story, and ultimately scrapped it.

But I just might leave it open to retroactively add some elements if I needed to eek it into litRPG (even loosely) depending on what those markets look like at launch.


----------



## edgeofspeech (Apr 9, 2016)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Yes I agree. Amazon really needs to make a LitRPG sub cat and get that stuff out of cyberpunk. In recent memory, when it commes to indie books, I can only think of your series, Liquid Cool and The New Prometheus that qualify as true cyberpunk.


Liquid Cool called to attention another interesting facet of this particular sub-category recently, and that is that due to LitRPG's conventions of including physical tables to represent characters interacting with game mechanics(and the subsequent pricing considerations and increased file sizes), the Top 100 Free list in Cyberpunk is still dominated by traditional style cyberpunk.



JohnRickett said:


> I can understand the potential overlap, especially since many litRPGs focus on dystopias/utopias where technology allows people to enter virtual worlds.
> 
> Conversely, my cyberpunk WIP has some litRPG elements, without leaning on those tropes too heavily. Characters compete in augmented-reality games that are used to distract and control the populace. At one point, I had considered adding more Character-progress/Loot/Stat-increases, to place it more firmly in litRPG-but I think it would detract, not add, to the story, and ultimately scrapped it.
> 
> But I just might leave it open to retroactively add some elements if I needed to eek it into litRPG (even loosely) depending on what those markets look like at launch.


While they might start at the same relative tech level, LitRPG should be primarily about the game and the characters' experiences therein. From what I know, LitRPG readers are very interested in the game's mechanics and most of the world building the writer does should go toward making the game features/rules internally consistent and functional. The game world can be fantasy or science fiction in flavor and that's where most of the story's action should take place. There might not be as much audience cross-over as it might seem(someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this).

I'd say you're right to debate whether to add that it in or not, but you should probably do so based on the structure and overall purpose of your WIP, and then dive in 110% or risk missing the mark on both fronts.

Just my 2 cents...(which could be worth squat lol)


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

I wish there was a category/genre for "sci-fi romance"


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

SA_Soule said:


> I wish there was a category/genre for "sci-fi romance"


There is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/digital-text/6401744011/ref=zg_bsnr_nav_kstore_3_158566011

But SFR falls under Romance, because Romance is a higher genre hierarchy. Romance is NOT a subdivision of SF. People choose to read Romance vs non-Romance before they choose SF vs other genre.

Not to say there can't be any romance in regular SF (there very often is), but it's never the main driver of the plot.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

I can't bare reading military sci-fi. I gave it a go and tossed it. It was super boring. But thats my taste.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

lostones said:


> I can't bare reading military sci-fi.


Have you tried reading military sci-fi with your clothes _on_?



lostones said:


> I gave it a go and tossed it.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> But SFR falls under Romance, because Romance is a higher genre hierarchy. Romance is NOT a subdivision of SF. People choose to read Romance vs non-Romance before they choose SF vs other genre.
> 
> Not to say there can't be any romance in regular SF (there very often is), but it's never the main driver of the plot.


That has implications for our cozy space station witches too. It's a Cozy Mystery with SF elements. Turn it the other way around and you'd have to switch the tropes up till it may not be recognizable as a Cozy.

Great points about Cyberpunk being overrun with Lit RPG too. I haven't been paying close attention to the rise of Lit RPG, but it's a really fascinating kind of emergent genre. Or subgenres! I'd imagine there's distinctions between Fantasy, Cyberpunk, and Space Opera Lit RPG readerships (just to name a few). What's really needed is a Lit RPG genre level with SFF or just beneath it, then a collection of Lit RPG subs.

I hope it takes off to the point that Amazon arranges that. The RPG readers deserve to have their own playground, and it could clear some of the cruft out of non-RPG cats for everybody else.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Hard Science Fiction is completely overrun by books that would be much more at home in Military Science Fiction. Just because it's military and tough doesn't make it hard SF.

I'd also be totally up for a Hard Fantasy category. It would be fantasy without magic and based on existing knowledge.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> It would be fantasy without magic and based on existing knowledge.


Any examples of this? I'm struggling to imagine any fantasy that doesn't include magic of some form.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Hard Science Fiction is completely overrun by books that would be much more at home in Military Science Fiction. Just because it's military and tough doesn't make it hard SF.
> 
> I'd also be totally up for a Hard Fantasy category. It would be fantasy without magic and based on existing knowledge.


I wonder if those books creep in because A) the author thinks their science is hard as a diamond; B) the author thinks "Hard SF" refers to something else, like grimdark content and themes; C) the author doesn't care; or D) Amazon's categorization algorithms are habitually wedging square pegs into round holes.

Probably a mix of all four.



Jim Johnson said:


> Any examples of this? I'm struggling to imagine any fantasy that doesn't include magic of some form.


I think the idea would be that it's like Historical, except all the history and geography is made up. Our reality's filled with a lot of fantastical things as it is, after all.

I don't know of any great examples of the genre off the top of my head. Google it and you'll get a lot of recommendations with a suspicious number of dragons, magic swords, and spell jockeys.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

Benjamin Douglas said:


> For any interested parties: on his most recent appearance on the SFF Marketing Podcast, Chris Fox predicted 'Military Fantasy' might be a fertile direction to head in. If you're looking for a market niche.


WOW!



Dolphin said:


> Right! I think there's still time before that one becomes more established. Amazon hasn't even got a Kindle Store category for it yet, and the Best Seller ranks are puny. There's not even enough HNRs to fill the list! Anything you publish will be a Hot New Release by default.
> 
> It'll be an interesting market to watch. Could be that if we build it, they will come.


Where do you guys see a market for this and the promotional opportunities? Military Fantasy is my first love in writing and my first three books are just that. But they barely sell compared to Military Sci-Fi. I am assuming 'Military Fantasy' means War/Combat set on a fantasy planet, and not on earth, with fictional armies and nations. Or is it just another name for Sword & Sorcery/Epic Fantasy but less emphasis on Sorcery and more on battle tactics? I want to write those too, but am curious how this term is being defined?


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Military fantasy sounds such an odd term.  There are also quite a number of tradpub series that would fit it; The Black Company, Malazan, Codex Alera, Paksenarrion, a lot of Gemmell's stuff).

I had a look through a fair few of the best sellers on the sci fi list, especially the ones mention as being a bit more open.  I've tried reading that style before (with Weber mostly) but it just never realyl clicked for me.


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## Gus Flory (Oct 13, 2009)

Here's my new one:

Sci-Fi > Sheep


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Gus Flory said:


> Here's my new one:
> 
> Sci-Fi > Sheep


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

That is an arresting and effective sheep SF cover. I'm terribly intrigued.



SidK said:


> Where do you guys see a market for this and the promotional opportunities? Military Fantasy is my first love in writing and my first three books are just that. But they barely sell compared to Military Sci-Fi. I am assuming 'Military Fantasy' means War/Combat set on a fantasy planet, and not on earth, with fictional armies and nations. Or is it just another name for Sword & Sorcery/Epic Fantasy but less emphasis on Sorcery and more on battle tactics? I want to write those too, but am curious how this term is being defined?


I'm afraid you had it right the second time; Military Fantasy could be high or low magic, high or low fantasy, but the principle distinction is in the themes. It's actually well established in tradpub classics like the aforementioned _Malazan Book of the Fallen_ by Steven Erikson and _The Black Company_ by Glen Cook, as well as some newcomers like _The Heroes_ by Joe Abercrombie.

Those titles are pretty diverse in terms of your standard fantasy tropes. What they feature in common is a commitment to military or paramilitary characters and organizations, involved in military-centered stories. It's big-F Fantasy for people who like stories of soldiering.

I don't think your series aligns with any existing genres (at least so far as Amazon defines them). I have a whole story concept that might be kind of similar, except it's based on the 20th century. I'd call it Dieselpunk, if forced. There doesn't seem to be a big market for that sort of thing, evidenced by the fact we've never developed a rich taxonomic language for talking about it.


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## Gus Flory (Oct 13, 2009)

Jim Johnson said:


>


Well, so much for me taking credit for kick-starting sheep sci-fi.


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## NeilMosspark (Sep 30, 2016)

edgeofspeech said:


> ...
> LitRPG and Cyberpunk have very different tropes and expectations.


I'm glad someone else said it. I was thinking that when ghost in the shell and blade runner was announced that there would be a glut of trope from the cyberpunk genre. But litRPG still seems to remain strong. I have a number of books that are coming out soon in the Cyberpunk genre and I think that they are going to get quickly buried under the litRPG rush.

Don't get me wrong but litRPG is a VERY strong fantasy genre placed in a scifi category because of its 'portal' aspect.

Some great writers out there producing some quality work, but I think amazon needs to open that up, and dump some titles into the correct slot... Mind you Scifi romance seems to be the same and not much has happened for that subgenre being placed into its own category.

On kobo and other distributors there are even less categories. I feel bad for those that have to compete among the other scifi/spaceopera/adventure/etc that gets lumped together.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

NeilMosspark said:


> I'm glad someone else said it. I was thinking that when ghost in the shell and blade runner was announced that there would be a glut of trope from the cyberpunk genre. But litRPG still seems to remain strong. I have a number of books that are coming out soon in the Cyberpunk genre and I think that they are going to get quickly buried under the litRPG rush.
> 
> Don't get me wrong but litRPG is a VERY strong fantasy genre placed in a scifi category because of its 'portal' aspect.
> 
> ...


Is there a way to make Amazon aware of this? A petition of somekind?


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

TheLemontree said:


> A space station certainly ticks the cozy box of having a limited cast and geographical location.


Somebody please write a series of mysteries, cozy or otherwise, set on Space Station 13. I will love you forever.

But seriously, no shortage of mystery fuel there. Who's the traitor trying to blow up the station? Who set the genetic experiments loose and why? Who welded the chief engineer into a storage locker?


----------



## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

Lummox JR said:


> Somebody please write a series of mysteries, cozy or otherwise, set on Space Station 13. I will love you forever.
> 
> But seriously, no shortage of mystery fuel there. Who's the traitor trying to blow up the station? Who set the genetic experiments loose and why? Who welded the chief engineer into a storage locker?


*

Mysterious kibbles.
A renegade Prince.
A lost starship amongst the stars.*

For the boot camp kittens made to do twenty laps of the orbital ring before their second catnap, war is hell. And who didn't feed the cats? Was it the welded in chief engineer? What is the Prince of Cats, genetically made with an IQ of 420 plans for the station? Is it the start of the Feline Uprising in Sector Eight? Only our band of furry felines can save the galaxy.

That is, if the cruel canines don't get them first.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

Aeryn Leigh said:


> *
> 
> Mysterious kibbles.
> A renegade Prince.
> ...


I loved this so much I started a thread for fictitious blurbs. Mmmmm.
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,251177.0.html


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## Tulonsae (Apr 12, 2015)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


----------



## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

I notice a lot of LitRPG in the TV, Movie Adaptations sub. Is this the current unofficial home for LitRPG (other than being miscategorized into Cyberpunk) until Amazon finally gives it its own sub?


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

Dolphin said:


> I'm afraid you had it right the second time; Military Fantasy could be high or low magic, high or low fantasy, but the principle distinction is in the themes. It's actually well established in tradpub classics like the aforementioned _Malazan Book of the Fallen_ by Steven Erikson and _The Black Company_ by Glen Cook, as well as some newcomers like _The Heroes_ by Joe Abercrombie.
> 
> Those titles are pretty diverse in terms of your standard fantasy tropes. What they feature in common is a commitment to military or paramilitary characters and organizations, involved in military-centered stories. It's big-F Fantasy for people who like stories of soldiering.
> 
> I don't think your series aligns with any existing genres (at least so far as Amazon defines them). I have a whole story concept that might be kind of similar, except it's based on the 20th century. I'd call it Dieselpunk, if forced. There doesn't seem to be a big market for that sort of thing, evidenced by the fact we've never developed a rich taxonomic language for talking about it.


Yes, I too have figured that the market for books like that isn't big or even much at all. That is why I am adding space opera/military sci-fi books to my backlist.

I prefer to call it Fantasy Adventures instead of Military Fantasy because not all action-adventure plots will involve battles between militaries or paramilitaries. And perhaps we should attempt to develop a taxonomic language and nomenclature for it. Sometimes people are confused by concepts and objects that are undefined and unspecified. But if we could get memorable names for it, it might catch some reader's attention.


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## Geoff Jones (Jun 20, 2014)

> Here's my new one:
> 
> Sci-Fi > Sheep


Didn't someone already capitalize on that? Wrote a whole book about Wool. Hubert Howard... or something like that.


----------



## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Geoff Jones said:


> Didn't someone already capitalize on that? Wrote a whole book about Wool. Hubert Howard... or something like that.


Honestly I'm not sure how he got away with misleading his readers as badly as he did. I can't remember a single sheep in that whole damn series.


----------



## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> There is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/new-releases/digital-text/6401744011/ref=zg_bsnr_nav_kstore_3_158566011
> 
> But SFR falls under Romance, because Romance is a higher genre hierarchy. Romance is NOT a subdivision of SF. People choose to read Romance vs non-Romance before they choose SF vs other genre.


Planetary Romance falls under SF and has been around since the early 1960s.


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## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

Nic said:


> Planetary Romance falls under SF and has been around since the early 1960s.


Planetary romance is romance in ye olde sense of a ripping good tale and has nothing to do with capital R Romance i.e. love stories with HEAs.


----------



## Felix R. Savage (Mar 3, 2011)

SidK said:


> WOW!
> 
> Where do you guys see a market for this and the promotional opportunities? Military Fantasy is my first love in writing and my first three books are just that. But they barely sell compared to Military Sci-Fi. I am assuming 'Military Fantasy' means War/Combat set on a fantasy planet, and not on earth, with fictional armies and nations. Or is it just another name for Sword & Sorcery/Epic Fantasy but less emphasis on Sorcery and more on battle tactics? I want to write those too, but am curious how this term is being defined?


K.J. Parker.


----------



## edgeofspeech (Apr 9, 2016)

dn8791 said:


> I notice a lot of LitRPG in the TV, Movie Adaptations sub. Is this the current unofficial home for LitRPG (other than being miscategorized into Cyberpunk) until Amazon finally gives it its own sub?


They're often listed in both categories, but true TV and movie adaptations still hold a solid place in the top 100 of their own category thanks to things like Star Wars.

Even though cyberpunk is my genre, I would actually argue that LitRPG is better categorized as Cyberpunk as opposed to TV, Movie, Video Game Adaptations. The reason being that LitRPG should not be considered an 'Adaptation' unless it uses an established video game or role-playing game world that is a franchise in its own right.

Thanks to the shared element of the front-half of the portal story mechanic (as in: the future world and pre-requisite VR tech), litRPG does fit the Cyberpunk category at least to that degree.

The growth and advent of LitRPG is fascinating to me (who didn't notice that about me? lol). If it continues to grow like it has, it won't take too long for it to get a category of its own. But nor should the transition happen too soon. Imagine if it suddenly had it's own category, what happens if it has fewer than 700 titles? The rush and free-for-all to fill that vacuum would likely have a very big negative impact on the quality and conventions of the genre. Better to let it grow in the shelter of another tree before transplanting it elsewhere. That might be a visibility issue for me at the moment, but it's better for the ecosystem as a whole. In the meantime, I'll just keep writing, keep building up my back list, and keep perfecting my craft. And maybe one day the road will get a little easier.


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

I'm writing scifi, and even have one in the top 10 of the free section, but I have VERY FEW READERS.  I see these people selling 10+/day and if I sold 1/day I'd be pretty happy.
How do you finally 'catch' on and people start picking you up?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Felix R. Savage said:


> Planetary romance is romance in ye olde sense of a ripping good tale and has nothing to do with capital R Romance i.e. love stories with HEAs.


I don't think Nic believes in big R Romance, with its craven insistence on HEAs. He's a bit of a small R romantic that way. (I agree with you and Patty.)



VayneLine said:


> I'm writing scifi, and even have one in the top 10 of the free section, but I have VERY FEW READERS. I see these people selling 10+/day and if I sold 1/day I'd be pretty happy.
> How do you finally 'catch' on and people start picking you up?


It's a big question. Chris Fox has produced a ton of great advice on this topic, and he's been applying it to Mil SF too. Check out his posts here, his YouTube videos, or his books. If you can learn one thing from him, let it be constant reassessment and improvement of everything you're doing.

Glancing at your catalog, my top three hit list would be 1) write novels, 2) write _series_ of novels, 3) step up the cover game. Notwithstanding the illustrious history of SF shorts, people are in the market for full-length stuff these days. I'd begin there.


----------



## Linn (Feb 2, 2016)

VayneLine said:


> I'm writing scifi, and even have one in the top 10 of the free section, but I have VERY FEW READERS. I see these people selling 10+/day and if I sold 1/day I'd be pretty happy.


I'm currently selling about one per day, and I'm convinced that's largely because of AMS. I sometimes hit 10/day during countdown deals, but I typically put the whole series on sale when I do this. Five years of writing Sci-fi is enough for me though. After book five of my series is finished, I'll be switching to epic fantasy - greener pastures and all that.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

VayneLine said:


> I'm writing scifi, and even have one in the top 10 of the free section, but I have VERY FEW READERS. I see these people selling 10+/day and if I sold 1/day I'd be pretty happy.


I know the feeling. Not the being in the top ten feeling, but the imagined happiness of selling one a day feeling. Once a week would be a nice feeling too, one might even dare imagine.

That's why I opted to go with a standard genre for my current WIP. Unfortunately, I picked Space Opera, so judging by the data in this thread, that was apparently a bad idea.

Maybe Sheep Shifter SciFi Romance is where to go.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Some interesting analysis here, thanks. One thing that I concur on is that space opera/mil-sf can be shorter than epic, so you start off with some favorable numbers right there. An epic trilogy and a five book sf series might be the same number of words, which tilts the scale.

I'm just heading back into epic after a 10 book run in space opera that netted me some nice money in the initial days, but is winding down, even if my hardcore fans would like another fifty books. I did some analysis on this, and really, both categories are pretty competitive, and a lot of it will come down to the usual suspects: good writing, good cover, good blurb, and a solid launch plan.

For people who like _reading_ mil-sf/space opera, I just read Downbelow Station, by CJ Cherryh, which won the Nebula back in the day. Her books take a bit to get into, but by the time I finished, I felt almost ashamed of my own work, it so pales in comparison to her world building, aliens, etc. Take a look if you want to be inspired by someone who knows what she's doing. I read her novels 40,000 in Gehenna and Cyteen a number of years back, and that's along the same lines.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

This is advice from someone who is not a huge seller in this genre, but has still made several hundred grand. Those who are talking about low sales should look at their presentation. I see some weak covers and some blurbs that could use tightening. Without looking at the writing itself, I can see a lot of the problem.

Look at the covers of BV Larson, Daniel Arenson, and Nick Webb and compare yours--really, really compare yours--and tell me if you were a reader in this genre, why you wouldn't go for their covers over yours? Now spend some more time on your blurbs. It's boring work, but essential.


----------



## Gus Flory (Oct 13, 2009)

Dolphin said:


> Honestly I'm not sure how he got away with misleading his readers as badly as he did. I can't remember a single sheep in that whole damn series.


Mine has wool and real sheep. Real talking sheep.


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## Some Random Guy (Jan 16, 2016)

Gus Flory said:


> Mine has wool and real sheep. Real talking sheep.


Sure, but the real question is - do androids dream of electric sheep?


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## storyhobbit (Feb 16, 2017)

I would also like to point out that a lot of these Fantasy/Sci-fi categories can also be found under YA, and from the research I've done, the market seems to be a bit more open in YA than for adults. A bit. So if you're writing fantasy/sci-fi with a young protagonist, perhaps consider marketing to YA.


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## number (May 16, 2017)

I'm so happy to see this thread. I'm working through Chris Fox's Write to Market and I find this research part so confusing. The categories all overlap with the same books at the top of many of them, so does it really help to focus on breaking into just one? How do I know if that market is strong or if a top book sold a lot of copies by being at the top of an entirely different category? Also, some categories seem ill-defined. For example, Teen & YA > SF > Aliens contains romance, thrillers, mysteries. All these books would likely have very different audiences, right? 

I also checked out SF > Metaphysical and a top book there is actually a Fantasy book. How does that work? Are these not the markets Chris refers to? The books are just too different to try to "write to market."


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

I got a question for some of the more succesful SF writers here in this topic.  How much are you making and how long did it take to get there?  I know that is a somewhat personal question, but I really need to know, sitting here in the bottom looking up.


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## Some Random Guy (Jan 16, 2016)

VayneLine said:


> I got a question for some of the more succesful SF writers here in this topic. How much are you making and how long did it take to get there? I know that is a somewhat personal question, but I really need to know, sitting here in the bottom looking up.


How much? Enough to take early retirement from a reasonably successful career as an IT executive at age 53
How long? A year

Am I making a ton of dough? No, but between my retirement income and my book royalties, my net income is more now than it was in my last year as an IT executive, with none of the stress.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

storyhobbit said:


> I would also like to point out that a lot of these Fantasy/Sci-fi categories can also be found under YA, and from the research I've done, the market seems to be a bit more open in YA than for adults. A bit. So if you're writing fantasy/sci-fi with a young protagonist, perhaps consider marketing to YA.


My understanding has always been that YA is notoriously difficult. Part of it might be _indy_ YA. It may appear to be open because it's a wasteland of torment. Cross-promoting might work, but you could make things tough for yourself if adult Fantasy fans decide not to read something they perceive as watered down.



ST said:


> I'm so happy to see this thread. I'm working through Chris Fox's Write to Market and I find this research part so confusing. The categories all overlap with the same books at the top of many of them, so does it really help to focus on breaking into just one? How do I know if that market is strong or if a top book sold a lot of copies by being at the top of an entirely different category? Also, some categories seem ill-defined. For example, Teen & YA > SF > Aliens contains romance, thrillers, mysteries. All these books would likely have very different audiences, right?
> 
> I also checked out SF > Metaphysical and a top book there is actually a Fantasy book. How does that work? Are these not the markets Chris refers to? The books are just too different to try to "write to market."


I think a lot of the SF categories really do overlap. Subgenres like Galactic Empire, Colonization, and Mil SF share a lot of titles. I'm not really sure if there are actual Galactic Empire readers out there, or if everybody's more or less marketing to the same pool.

My suspicion is that the cats themselves just do a really poor job of summarizing the core tropes that readers are looking for in far-future types of stories. Chris hits on some of the major ones: a ragtag crew (or platoon), led by a maverick captain, of an aging/untested/battered ship, representing humanity's last hope, battling complacent/incompetent/meddling authority figures. I tend to think of it all in terms of Mil SF, with adjuncts like Galactic Empire or Space Exploration tacked on as appropriate. I think it's unusual to find an indy with a tight focus on something like Colonization or Space Exploration (_The Martian_ being a sterling counterexample).

I definitely think YA is a different audience. Party that's because YA is going to focus on different tropes--a lot of firsts, for example: first love, first loss, rites of passage, &c.--and partly it's because some readers will just look down their noses at it.

Metaphysical categories baffle me. I don't know if that's fiction for people who think Edgar Cayce is nonfiction or what. And again, there are other SF subgenres like Dystopian and Post-Apocalyptic that are a whole different thing. Usually not as many spaceships.



VayneLine said:


> I got a question for some of the more succesful SF writers here in this topic. How much are you making and how long did it take to get there? I know that is a somewhat personal question, but I really need to know, sitting here in the bottom looking up.


You're ahead of me! I've been working with other authors for years, but still haven't published anything in my own name. You've already got novels worth of material out there, so I'm sure you can get 'er done.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Nic said:


> Planetary Romance falls under SF and has been around since the early 1960s.


Planetary romance?

Wasn't that part of the plot of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - literally?


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> This is advice from someone who is not a huge seller in this genre, but has still made several hundred grand. Those who are talking about low sales should look at their presentation. I see some weak covers and some blurbs that could use tightening. Without looking at the writing itself, I can see a lot of the problem.


_Several hundred grand...not a huge seller_.    You are being too humble, I would consider you a Master of Space Opera with those sales numbers.

Just what do those "huge sellers" really make then?


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

The common advice seems to be to publish a series for best results.  The flip side of that is that it is often pointed out that many readers will wait until at least three books in a series are out before buying.

My current WIP (SciFi - Space Opera) will be a complete story.  There's a beginning, a middle and an end.  But, as I write it, I have some ideas (nothing yet concrete) about what could be in a sequel.  Potentially it could be a trilogy.  And, really, so long as I don't kill off all the characters, there's likely room for future adventures.

But the first book will be a complete story.  No cliffhanger ending or anything open-ended like that.  There'll be opportunity for a potential sequel but nothing (hopefully) where the reader will feel they didn't read a complete story.

If sales are good (for once), then I'd write more with those characters.  If not, no one's going to be left feeling like I've abandoned a series.  But, then there's the problem that standalones apparently don't do well.

In a way, the book is like a pilot episode.  If it does well, it goes to series.  If not, it's a one and done.

But if readers shy away from standalones and shy away from unfinished series, what's the best position?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

SidK said:


> _Several hundred grand...not a huge seller_.    You are being too humble, I would consider you a Master of Space Opera with those sales numbers.
> 
> Just what do those "huge sellers" really make then?


That is an excess of humility; the average writing income for a self-published author was around $500/month last I heard. Anybody who's already made six figures at this is clearly an outlier (and good for them!).

A "huge seller" might be someone more like Mark Dawson, who says he's making "high six figures" annually these days, and I'm pretty sure he meant pounds sterling. Might be grossing seven figures USD. Depending on their lifestyles, old SFF hands like Jay Allan, B.V. Larson, Vaugh Heppner, or Daniel Arenson could easily be millionaires at this point.

Also, once you're at that level, there's occasional one-off deals like film rights or a tradpub deal. Mark and Hugh have both sold film rights. _The Martian_ and _50 Shades_ have already been produced as major motion pictures. Hugh sold his print rights to the Silo Saga for $500,000. Tradpub seems to have decided that was a mistake and that they're not offering those anymore, but you never know. Everything is negotiable.

For comparison, Chris Fox is a great example of a rising star. He grossed $150,000 last year, mostly off one trilogy of ~55,000 word Mil SF novels. Note that he had about $30,000 in expenses, not counting the wages he paid himself (he identifies as a limited liability corporation now--please be supportive of his transition). Note also that those expenses include things like a few thousand dollars to travel to Hawaii for research. Joe Nobody lists his guns, ammo, and drones as expenses, IIRC. This is a pretty cool gig if you make it to the big time.

Chris might be close to where MonkishScribe is at. Even though there's other folks who sell more, they're huge sellers in my book, and I'd be more than satisfied if I was ever able to join their elite numbers.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> In a way, the book is like a pilot episode. If it does well, it goes to series. If not, it's a one and done.
> 
> But if readers shy away from standalones and shy away from unfinished series, what's the best position?


What I'm seeing more and more is authors cranking out multiple books at once, then dropping them simultaneously, or very rapidly. That's what Chris is in the middle of doing. He launched Book 1 on May 4th, Book 2 on May 11th, and then had to have an emergency vacation. I'm sure Book 3 will be out promptly.

One of the advantages that he's really enjoyed is being able to understand the full plot arc before publishing anything, so he can backstop everything and make it more cohesive. Otherwise it's too late when you realize how nice it would've been to drop some hints about your cool new Book 3 idea way back in Book 1. Or you wind up like GRRM or Robert Jordan. Which is why fans hate buying incomplete series.

The main doubt I always have with pilots is that they're just not as effective at selling themselves as series. It's not all reader preference, you know; part of why series do so well is that they reinforce each other's marketing. You get to have series pages, you get to sell your sequels (or prequels) in your own also boughts, you get to leverage a successful ad into more than one sale at a time. I'm not sure it's fair to judge a pilot on its own. It might've thrived if you'd given it more friends.

Some readers would appreciate it if there were more standalone novels out there. Who's got the time for series, you know? The problem is that anti-series readers aren't your target audience.

My goal right now is to write a trilogy, a novella-length reader magnet prequel (freebie for mailing list subscribers), and a standalone sequel novel set in the same universe. 1) Launch the trilogy, 2) Chuck the sequel in Kindle Scout for the eyeballs, 3) [nobbc][/nobbc], 4) Profit?

If it crashes and burns, it'll still be no more than half the word count of an Epic Fantasy trilogy. And at least I'll know I tried every trick I knew.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Eric Thomson said:


> How much? Enough to take early retirement from a reasonably successful career as an IT executive at age 53
> How long? A year
> 
> Am I making a ton of dough? No, but between my retirement income and my book royalties, my net income is more now than it was in my last year as an IT executive, with none of the stress.


Pretty much this. I am not making huge wads of money, but it's steady and twice as much as I earned in my day job.

The key is:

1. Series
2. Presentation, presentation, presentation
3. Mailing list aka "platform"

1. Write coherent, well-edited books in series with a tight plot
2. Get a good cover. Seriously GET A GOOD COVER NOW!
3. Work on your list

Exhibit 1: I just released a novella that I'd written several years ago. I was published in a slightly different for under a pen name, "because I felt like it", but never did squat. The cover was OK, but the blurb wasn't that good. Moreover: I had no audience for this pen name. I pulled it a few months ago, did another pass, made a new cover that fitted with another novella in this series that's almost done (because I had an idea that was cool), planned a third novella, and then put it on preorder. It was supposed to be a secret preorder, but quite a few people found it anyway.
It launched a day and a half ago and I've sold 150 copies. Of a novella. It's in hard science fiction and is a realistic mystery set in space.

The difference with the previous launch?

1. I've attached my name to it.
2. I got a cool cover
3. I made a series (even if I've not set a release date for the next book)
4. I now have a vastly bigger mailing list

TBH, point 4 is the one that matters most by a factor of magnitudes.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> For comparison, Chris Fox is a great example of a rising star. He grossed $150,000 last year, mostly off one trilogy of ~55,000 word Mil SF novels. Note that he had about $30,000 in expenses, not counting the wages he paid himself (he identifies as a limited liability corporation now--please be supportive of his transition). Note also that those expenses include things like a few thousand dollars to travel to Hawaii for research. Joe Nobody lists his guns, ammo, and drones as expenses, IIRC. This is a pretty cool gig if you make it to the big time.
> 
> Chris might be close to where MonkishScribe is at. Even though there's other folks who sell more, they're huge sellers in my book, and I'd be more than satisfied if I was ever able to join their elite numbers.


I should have probably said "a few hundred grand," as it would have been more accurate. And that's not in one year, that's over the 3 1/2 years I've been publishing in space opera. I write in other categories, too, and my two biggest selling books were not sf/f.

When I say I'm not a huge seller, I'm comparing my sales to Nick Webb, Daniel Arenson, BV Larson, and others. I'm quite happy with my overall results, but my sales aren't in that category.


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## number (May 16, 2017)

Dolphin said:


> I think a lot of the SF categories really do overlap. Subgenres like Galactic Empire, Colonization, and Mil SF share a lot of titles. I'm not really sure if there are actual Galactic Empire readers out there, or if everybody's more or less marketing to the same pool.
> 
> My suspicion is that the cats themselves just do a really poor job of summarizing the core tropes that readers are looking for in far-future types of stories. Chris hits on some of the major ones: a ragtag crew (or platoon), led by a maverick captain, of an aging/untested/battered ship, representing humanity's last hope, battling complacent/incompetent/meddling authority figures. I tend to think of it all in terms of Mil SF, with adjuncts like Galactic Empire or Space Exploration tacked on as appropriate. I think it's unusual to find an indy with a tight focus on something like Colonization or Space Exploration (_The Martian_ being a sterling counterexample).
> 
> I definitely think YA is a different audience. Party that's because YA is going to focus on different tropes--a lot of firsts, for example: first love, first loss, rites of passage, &c.--and partly it's because some readers will just look down their noses at it.


Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.  Still overwhelmed, but it makes more sense now.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> But if readers shy away from standalones and shy away from unfinished series, what's the best position?


Series written all at once, I guess. Then if three books don't sell, you're no further in the hole than if one didn't?

I don't get this thing that readers don't like stand alone books. I know I do, and I'm not a shiny special snowflake. I just think people are overwhelmed with series in every genre, to the point they aren't seeing anything else, so they buy series. I'm seeing a lot of drawn-out books, books that aren't even books, but a single novel broken up into parts, or short stories. That's a cheap trick on readers, in my opinion. I know not everyone is doing that, but a lot sure are.

But, what do I know? I'm certainly not making a living at this, much less drawing down five or six figures and taking trips to Hawaii. I don't even have change for my two cents.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I don't get this thing that readers don't like stand alone books. I know I do, and I'm not a shiny special snowflake. I just think people are overwhelmed with series in every genre, to the point they aren't seeing anything else, so they buy series.


I really don't think it's about readers. It's just that it's a lot easier to sell series of books than an equal number of standalones, cause Amazon and marketing options support it so well (plus there's efficiencies of scale that come from writing the same worlds, characters, and storylines). We write series for ourselves, not for readers.

None of that's to say that there aren't readers out there who enjoy series as much or more than standalones. I just think the non-reader pressures to write in series are so powerful that it really doesn't matter whether readers want series or not. They certainly don't hate them enough to outweigh the advantages.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Perhaps "pilot" wasn't the best analogy. Also, I'm thinking series as a series of books with the same characters, not a serialized story that spans several novels. More like _Star Trek_ and less like _Babylon 5_.


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## Thame (Apr 18, 2017)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Perhaps "pilot" wasn't the best analogy. Also, I'm thinking series as a series of books with the same characters, not a serialized story that spans several novels. More like _Star Trek_ and less like _Babylon 5_.


This is my plan exactly, basically what Dolphin said. My initial release will be three books in a series, but each one in itself is a standalone story. If successful I'll keep writing. I'd also like to expand this to two, or possibly three series eventually.


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## amdonehere (May 1, 2015)

Dolphin, Thanks for this thread.  I don't write Sci-fi and never will, but your info and this thread gives all of us a lot of fruits for thoughts.

Two things I want to ask: 

1. You recommended CoA as a good category to go into. Although I'm not in Sci-fi, that's one category that really fits my theme in other categories. But I've found that the CoA category has essentially been sabotaged by 6-pack steamy/erotica Romances. Apparently, CoA is only about losing one's first time. Or something. Anyway, I recalled looking into Sci-fi-CoA and it seems that way too. Don't you worry about your REAL sci-fi/CoA story being listed and surround by books of the steamy kind that have nothing to do with your book? 

It's the reason why I avoid the CoA category like plague. And I thought all those steaminess actually makes the CoA category too competitive to get into, while the book being shown to wrong audience. Really, if I'm looking for a CoA story, I don't even go there because it's just all books with man-chests.

I could be convinced to give CoA category a try if I can be more sure that I could gain readers who are not just looking for steamy reads. I realize you're only speaking to the Sci-fi genre, but my impression is that the CoA problem runs across all genres. 

2. Your thoughts about finding a less competitive category with a long tail is VERY interesting. Do you recommend then that, if a category has less than 100 in HNR, and if it takes only 5 digits in rank to achieve the top 100 (Or even the top 20 and top 40) in that sub-category?

Thanks.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

AlexaKang said:


> 1. You recommended CoA as a good category to go into.


I don't think there's a Coming of Age in SF, just Fantasy. I covered Epic and CoA Fantasy in addition to the SF subgenres because I like them, so there. Your concern's one that I mentioned, though: Fantasy puts you in competition with a lot of popular books that have a lot of steam or sparkling demihumans. I don't love it. Kinda is what it is if you're writing Fantasy.

Coming of Age is still a relatively good option if you're trying to do something closer to traditional, Epic Fantasy. It's a time-honored set of tropes that readers are still eager to lap up, and it's somewhere between the hyper-competitive Fantasy subs like Epic or Urban Fantasy and the near-meaningless backwaters like Arthurian or Mythologies.

There's definitely indies who've made it work without man cleavage. Sever Bronny crushed CoA Fantasy, despite long gaps between his releases. Brian Fuller dropped four books at once, then walked away like a guy who's too cool to look at explosions. His aren't even listed in CoA, but they could've been. You can write and sell Fantasy if you want to. Just might have to do it without the Best Seller/HNR juice you could lap up in SF.



AlexaKang said:


> 2. Your thoughts about finding a less competitive category with a long tail is VERY interesting. Do you recommend then that, if a category has less than 100 in HNR, and if it takes only 5 digits in rank to achieve the top 100 (Or even the top 20 and top 40) in that sub-category?


My gut check has always been to go see how Wayne's living in Sea Adventure. It's a small subgenre, but Wayne's got an in-ground pool, a private beach, and at least a few boats. Now obviously, you'd better pack a great work ethic and a lot of life experience if you want to tangle with Wayne. He didn't just waltz into a good market and win them over with his boyish good looks. All we're trying to do is get an idea of what an underserved, yet lucrative market looks like. Taking it by storm will be another question entirely.

There's 34 HNRs in Sea Adventure right now, with the top 20 ranging from #2,706 to #396,498. Currently there's 7 pre-orders, 37 releases in the last 30 days, and 120 in the last 90 days. Best Seller ranks are:

001. #412
020. #6,042
040. #9,886
060. #17,183
080. #27,628
100. #33,135

That gives you an idea of what a good, underserved market might look like. Note the four-figure ranks through the top 40. Any Best Seller list with five-figure rankings in the top 20 should probably be a red flag.

I'm not sure if we could come up with a blind set of criteria to tell you whether or not your genre's worth writing, but there's existing tools like KDP Rocket or K-Lytics that try to do that work for you (I haven't used any myself and couldn't recommend any).

Once you find something, think about the whole CoA genre-bending issue too. Steampunk is a good example of this. It's choked with LitRPG, fantasy elements, tradpubs, Space Opera, and just a whiff of smut, without much room leftover for what I actually think of as Steampunk. Looks like an easy genre to break into on paper, but it's all tail with no meat at the top, and it doesn't actually support a vibrant market for the core tropes.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> I should have probably said "a few hundred grand," as it would have been more accurate. And that's not in one year, that's over the 3 1/2 years I've been publishing in space opera. I write in other categories, too, and my two biggest selling books were not sf/f.
> 
> When I say I'm not a huge seller, I'm comparing my sales to Nick Webb, Daniel Arenson, BV Larson, and others. I'm quite happy with my overall results, but my sales aren't in that category.


What would you suggest is a good rank to aim for when launching a new book in Mil Sci-Fi/Space Opera, if one wants to become a reasonably good seller such as yourself?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

SidK said:


> What would you suggest is a good rank to aim for when launching a new book in Mil Sci-Fi/Space Opera, if one wants to become a reasonably good seller such as yourself?


I don't aim for anything, to be honest. I don't see how you can. You can only try to do the best launch you can, using your list, some well-targeted ads, and making sure that your cover and blurb are high quality.


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

Monk what series of books do you have?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> I really don't think it's about readers. It's just that it's a lot easier to sell series of books than an equal number of standalones, cause Amazon and marketing options support it so well (plus there's efficiencies of scale that come from writing the same worlds, characters, and storylines). We write series for ourselves, not for readers.
> 
> *I can understand that for writers, it's about the ease of marketing. But that's not what people say when they say write series, it's all about the readers, how they love them, love being in that world, and so on. So, which is it, really? For how ever many people get overwhelmed with series to the point they can't see anything else, how many more are like me and just pass on by? Is it enough to be worth the effort? Because I look at it as selling myself as a writer, telling good stories and finding readers. It may be slower, but it's still a viable path.*
> 
> ...


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## AsianInspiration (Oct 12, 2016)

Now I don't really read books. But I watch dramas and anime. A lot of them.

Haven't you ever felt like "ahh, I wish the story continued a bit longer?" "What happened after they finally managed to achieve whatever they wanted to?"


I know I have, many times. Even in series with 60+ episodes. 

IF many people like series (possibly more than those who like standalones) and it's better for the author in terms of marketing and income, then why not write a series for a win-win on both sides?


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## Linn (Feb 2, 2016)

storyhobbit said:


> ...if you're writing fantasy/sci-fi with a young protagonist, perhaps consider marketing to YA.


Do we still have to beg Amazon to put our titles in the YA categories? If we can place them there ourselves now, and opt out of them at will, I might be tempted to experiment with that. But I get the impression YA = teen romance these days, even if the story is set in outer space. So what to do if you have a young protagonist who is not quite ready for teen romance? I see they've placed David Webber's "A Beautiful Friendship" in the children's category, but that doesn't seem like a great fit either.


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## Kristine McKinley (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm curious if anyone thinks there's a market for SciFi that's positive, basically a future/world where you'd actually want to live. So no alien invasions or galaxies at war or that sort of thing. I haven't read much Sci Fi that isn't romance, though I'm trying to fix that, but most of the stuff I see on Amazon best sellers is all about war and fending off alien invasions. It's entirely possible that I'm just missing stuff, though I've looked a few times. Sci Fi Romance tends to be set in a positive world, at least a place where love makes everything better. Is there some non-romantic Sci Fi selling that's, I don't know, happy? Or is it not something people are reading?


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Kristine McKinley said:


> I'm curious if anyone thinks there's a market for SciFi that's positive, basically a future/world where you'd actually want to live. So no alien invasions or galaxies at war or that sort of thing. I haven't read much Sci Fi that isn't romance, though I'm trying to fix that, but most of the stuff I see on Amazon best sellers is all about war and fending off alien invasions. It's entirely possible that I'm just missing stuff, though I've looked a few times. Sci Fi Romance tends to be set in a positive world, at least a place where love makes everything better. Is there some non-romantic Sci Fi selling that's, I don't know, happy? Or is it not something people are reading?


That sounds a lot like Asimov's Foundation series... so maybe that sort of book goes under "Galactic Empire" scifi?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Kristine McKinley said:


> I'm curious if anyone thinks there's a market for SciFi that's positive, basically a future/world where you'd actually want to live. So no alien invasions or galaxies at war or that sort of thing. I haven't read much Sci Fi that isn't romance, though I'm trying to fix that, but most of the stuff I see on Amazon best sellers is all about war and fending off alien invasions. It's entirely possible that I'm just missing stuff, though I've looked a few times. Sci Fi Romance tends to be set in a positive world, at least a place where love makes everything better. Is there some non-romantic Sci Fi selling that's, I don't know, happy? Or is it not something people are reading?


Seeing as one of the premises of SF (and fantasy) is that it derives its main conflict from its setting (and the interaction of the characters with it, of course), a happy-go-lucky place is unlikely, just like the real world has a lot of unhappy places.

SF Romance is classified under romance and not SF because it derives its primary conflict from the romance.

Not all conflicts in SF are of the alien invader type, but some subgenres are more likely to contain these types of conflicts.

A SF story in a kind of utopian world would be boring without a conflict, so the conflict would still arise from the setting, like the character find an ugly corner of the utopia and find out it isn't so utopian after all, or some utopian-style crime was perpetrated on them.

A conflict could also be about protecting a world that's nice (Avatar and Star Wars), but a story set in a utopian world without an ugly conflict would be boring.

I think there is plenty of SF set in places where you'd want to live.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

she-la-ti-da said:


> I can understand that for writers, it's about the ease of marketing. But that's not what people say when they say write series, it's all about the readers, how they love them, love being in that world, and so on. So, which is it, really? For how ever many people get overwhelmed with series to the point they can't see anything else, how many more are like me and just pass on by? Is it enough to be worth the effort? Because I look at it as selling myself as a writer, telling good stories and finding readers. It may be slower, but it's still a viable path.


What makes me suspicious is that we all know it's an ironclad rule that you must write in series, even though we also know there are readers who enjoy standalones. We benefit more from series than readers do. Even the readers who like series don't get the kind of life-altering benefits that the author can.

Some readers surely do love series. A lot of them are probably the ones already reading indies, since most indies insist on writing in series. If that's all you write, and you poll your readers, it'd be tough to find anything but support.

I don't know how to quantify how large the market of discouraged, standalone-preferring readers is. I don't know how many of them still try to find indies either. Most of the standalone success stories I can think of involved weirdness (_The Martian_ got its start from fans of Andy Weir's blog, _Eleanor_ got picked up by tradpub, &c.).



she-la-ti-da said:


> Non-reader preferences? Is that who we're supposed to be marketing to? I'll admit this whole marketing thing is a bit beyond me, but I'm trying to get it. I just don't see what the point of forcing series down people's throats just because it's "easier" for the writer to promote them. Ah, well. It isn't the first time I've taken the hard road, won't be the last. I'm just going to write the best way I can.


I think "forcing" is a strong word. The readers who're sticking with indies seem to be enjoying themselves well enough. And after all, the more authors who're able to earn a full-time living at this, the more books they get. Everybody would lose if more indy authors stubbornly wrote standalones and there were fewer successful indies as a result. I'm not saying "Greed is good," but an action isn't all bad, or even _mostly_ bad just because the actor benefits the most.



AsianInspiration said:


> Haven't you ever felt like "ahh, I wish the story continued a bit longer?" "What happened after they finally managed to achieve whatever they wanted to?"


The trick is to always leave them with that feeling! Doesn't matter if you're writing a standalone or a 12-volume series, you gotta leave 'em wanting more. It's a damn fine line between that and jumping the shark.


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## Kristine McKinley (Aug 26, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Seeing as one of the premises of SF (and fantasy) is that it derives its main conflict from its setting (and the interaction of the characters with it, of course), a happy-go-lucky place is unlikely, just like the real world has a lot of unhappy places.
> 
> SF Romance is classified under romance and not SF because it derives its primary conflict from the romance.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry my original post wasn't very clear. I do expect there to be conflict, because like you said without it the story would be boring, I was just thinking of something like Star Trek TNG, where the Federation is pretty awesome and I'd love to live there and a lot of the stories are about diplomacy and exploring, things like that, though they definitely do end up fighting a lot but like you mentioned they're protecting a world that's nice. Would that be too boring in book form? Do you see a market for something like that? I guess that's my question, is there a market for Sci Fi that is set in a world that isn't bleak? 
When I just do a basic google search for Sci Fi that's positive most of what comes back is a list of older books and articles about how bleak Sci Fi is right now. Could you recommend me some books? I've got a list going and in case I'm missing something I'd like to add it. Thanks.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Kristine McKinley said:


> I'm curious if anyone thinks there's a market for SciFi that's positive, basically a future/world where you'd actually want to live. So no alien invasions or galaxies at war or that sort of thing. I haven't read much Sci Fi that isn't romance, though I'm trying to fix that, but most of the stuff I see on Amazon best sellers is all about war and fending off alien invasions. It's entirely possible that I'm just missing stuff, though I've looked a few times. Sci Fi Romance tends to be set in a positive world, at least a place where love makes everything better. Is there some non-romantic Sci Fi selling that's, I don't know, happy? Or is it not something people are reading?


I'm sure there's a market for upbeat sci-fi. Books about alien invasions and epic galactic wars aren't all there is to it. There's room for all kinds of things there. One of my all-time favorite trilogies (I'm rereading it right now) is basically a buddy adventure, and the range of societies they encounter has all kinds of good and bad. Romance will tend towards more "sweetness" (by which I don't mean saccharine, unless it's done badly), but you can explore sweetness, saltiness, grittiness, or any other flavor or texture of the wider genre. I'm working on a humorous sci-fi series myself, adapted from a webcomic that never got off the ground but I had written hundreds of scripts for; it doesn't have lofty space wars or save-the-world plots, but rather focuses on a single merchant ship and its crew in a corner of space that mixes high civilization with the dangers of piracy.

The real question is what kind of conflict interests you outside of romance. Sci-fi can lend itself to as wide a range of stories as any other genre. Do you prefer something where the scope of the book is more contained to how it affects the MC in their life, or something that maybe busts up an interstellar crime ring? And of course that can go all the way to the huge scale of a war. Do you prefer series with lots of characters you can get to know, or something that focuses more on one or just a few characters?

But I get where you're coming from, because honestly I'm that way about fantasy. I don't read a lot of fantasy, and it's because so much of it seems like it's about saving the kingdom from some ancient evil--or else it may end up being sprawling series that I find daunting to get into. I wouldn't mind seeing more small-scale stuff, a quest that doesn't have the whole world at stake; that was actually one of the motivations behind writing my latest.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Kristine McKinley said:


> When I just do a basic google search for Sci Fi that's positive most of what comes back is a list of older books and articles about how bleak Sci Fi is right now. Could you recommend me some books? I've got a list going and in case I'm missing something I'd like to add it. Thanks.


Have you read the Culture series by Iain M. Banks? It's mostly set in a post-scarcity, anarchist utopia where humans live pampered, sheltered lives under the care of godlike AIs who are urbane and profane by turns. It touches on some pretty dark stuff from time to time, but it's gotta be one of the more optimistic perspectives on far-future human society.

In general, I'd say you're right about the state of the genre. Optimistic stuff is out there, but there's probably a market for more. Lord knows Star Trek didn't get where it is by disappointing people. Maybe we need a subgenre term, like Noblebright Fantasy (vice Grimdark Fantasy).


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Kristine McKinley said:


> I'm sorry my original post wasn't very clear. I do expect there to be conflict, because like you said without it the story would be boring, I was just thinking of something like Star Trek TNG, where the Federation is pretty awesome and I'd love to live there and a lot of the stories are about diplomacy and exploring, things like that, though they definitely do end up fighting a lot but like you mentioned they're protecting a world that's nice. Would that be too boring in book form? Do you see a market for something like that? I guess that's my question, is there a market for Sci Fi that is set in a world that isn't bleak?
> When I just do a basic google search for Sci Fi that's positive most of what comes back is a list of older books and articles about how bleak Sci Fi is right now. Could you recommend me some books? I've got a list going and in case I'm missing something I'd like to add it. Thanks.





Dolphin said:


> Have you read the Culture series by Iain M. Banks? It's mostly set in a post-scarcity, anarchist utopia where humans live pampered, sheltered lives under the care of godlike AIs who are urbane and profane by turns. It touches on some pretty dark stuff from time to time, but it's gotta be one of the more optimistic perspectives on far-future human society.
> 
> In general, I'd say you're right about the state of the genre. Optimistic stuff is out there, but there's probably a market for more. Lord knows Star Trek didn't get where it is by disappointing people. Maybe we need a subgenre term, like Noblebright Fantasy (vice Grimdark Fantasy).


Noblebright.org focuses on noblebright fantasy, but Star Trek definitely fits the concept (shoot, my UF and weird westerns both fit noblebright). As does the Culture and other series out there. I agree that there should be more in the genre, though--there's room for more optimistic sci-fi in amongst the grimmer alien invasions and mil-sf. Especially in our current political climate.

I'm sure I'm not the only indie with a noblebright SF series waiting to be written. Gotta get a few other WIPs and projects out the door first.


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## ThomasDiehl (Aug 23, 2014)

As said before, many good Star Trek episodes and movies prove conflict does not require a bleak world. While usually, the conflict in sf derives from its setting, that does not mean the setting has to be the cause of conflict. A future crime fiction story can very well play against an optimistic backdrop.

Passengers would be a nice example once somebody edits away the creepy "wake up a romantic counterpart to spend the rest of her life almost completely alone on a spaceship without her consent".
The Martian. Interstellar, despite featuring a dying Earth, is ultimately very positive in its outlook for humanity. Arrival.

I know, I'm listing movie examples here, but they are bound to be more universally known than books.

Of course, these are rarer than pessimistic sf simply because traditionally, sf has been a means to warn about the dangers of current trends or future developments, a genre about fear and danger by nature.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

ThomasDiehl said:


> Passengers would be a nice example once somebody edits away the creepy "wake up a romantic counterpart to spend the rest of her life almost completely alone on a spaceship without her consent".


Of course in all fairness it should be said about that movie that


Spoiler



he makes it right at the end, where she does have a choice


. And there's the wrinkle that


Spoiler



if he hadn't woken her up, no one would have arrived at their destination at all, even though he didn't know that at the time


. Judging that part of the story completely out of context is unfair, and also undermines that his struggles, and failures, to cope with profound loneliness are all intricately connected to the story.

And speaking of Interstellar, don't forget that


Spoiler



Matt Damon's character nearly dooms the entire human race because he's been so cut off for so long he's lost his mind


.

Editing out the bad parts doesn't necessarily improve the story, and one set in a very positive universe (I would not say that of Interstellar) can still have plenty of dark hollows and jagged edges to provide sources of conflict. All that's required for a pleasant setting and a positive outlook is that it's easy to imagine a large majority of people living out good and mostly peaceful lives without too many undue troubles.

When I look at William Gibson's work for instance, especially his Sprawl trilogy, although you're looking at a lot of crime and degeneracy and dangerous hacking shenanigans, he also makes frequent oblique references to the fact that there are whole swaths of the world's population who live on in the middle class, untroubled by such concerns except as they touch on the periphery of their existence. His novels focus on a small segment of trouble where all the action is happening, but for most people the world spins on and in the end that's a big deal; he even makes a point of saying that one character got off the technocriminal merry-go-round and escaped to a good life. His newer Blue Ant trilogy is even clearer about the fact that there's a whole world of normies unaffected by the stuff going on, since it's set in present day, and it's entirely easy to imagine the dealings of the novels happening right under everyone's noses.



> Of course, these are rarer than pessimistic sf simply because traditionally, sf has been a means to warn about the dangers of current trends or future developments, a genre about fear and danger by nature.


I've never felt this way about sci-fi; rather I think that outlook comes more from the bleak trends of the 1970s that suffocated all the fun out of the genre for a while, and to a certain extent it never fully recovered. Sci-fi has always been about exploring the outcomes and possibilities of new technology, of which dangers are only a part; it is tonally neutral, and only the developments of the last few decades have pushed this blinkered notion that it ought to be warning us of danger above all else. Yes many dangers may present themselves, but also many wonders. When Asimov was exploring the ways his Three Laws of Robotics could break down or run into trouble, he did so against a backdrop of mankind having spread out into the solar system. If you look at sci-fi of the '50s, and even somewhat in the '60s, there is still an air of bright-eyed possibility--even in stories that take us to dark places. A lot of that is probably reflective of the greater cultural zeitgeist (I hate myself for using that word) of the time, but _people crave that feeling and want it back_. Gene Roddenberry understood that even as he saw the world of sci-fi turning sour; and it's why the love of his work has endured.

Personally I'm sick of sci-fi that tries to ram lessons about man's hubris down my throat. It's not a new observation and in the world of storytelling it only deserves a small fraction of our attention. I think there's a much greater call--that has gone ignored in mainstream publishing--for stories that celebrate what good people can do together when we overcome some of the pettiness around us. I ache to read more sci-fi that's good clean fun, and by that I don't mean a Pollyanna world of sunshine and daisies but simply one where the author recognizes something worthy in the human spirit. Sci-fi has let itself be hijacked by a lot of Debbie Downers for going on fifty years now, but it's a genre that deserves better and was born with nobler aspirations. I firmly believe that authors who capture that sense of wonder, the expansionist yearning of old, will be rewarded with loyal readers.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Lummox JR said:


> Of course in all fairness it should be said about that movie that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


It could also be argued


Spoiler



that she had developed Stockholm syndrome by then, so did she really have a choice?





> And there's the wrinkle that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


But,


Spoiler



if he hadn't woken her up, Gus's pod would still have failed and he would have still woken up and discovered the problems that needed to be fixed


.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> It could also be argued
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Except that


Spoiler



Gus didn't live long enough to diagnose and fix the problems on his own. The two of them working together might have gotten the diagnostics up, and Jim might have found the problem on his own after Gus died, but it took two to fix it


. Also, I would submit that


Spoiler



Stockholm syndrome


 is of a very different nature from what actually happened.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I really disliked _Passengers_. Take all the disappointment of _Pacific Rim_, make it weird, remove giant robots punching giant monsters in their stupid faces, and you're 80% done. JLaw and Crisp Rat are always delightful, but damn...kind of a waste.



Lummox JR said:


> And speaking of Interstellar, don't forget that
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That was the best part!



Lummox JR said:


> Personally I'm sick of sci-fi that tries to ram lessons about man's hubris down my throat. It's not a new observation and in the world of storytelling it only deserves a small fraction of our attention. I think there's a much greater call--that has gone ignored in mainstream publishing--for stories that celebrate what good people can do together when we overcome some of the pettiness around us. I ache to read more sci-fi that's good clean fun, and by that I don't mean a Pollyanna world of sunshine and daisies but simply one where the author recognizes something worthy in the human spirit. Sci-fi has let itself be hijacked by a lot of Debbie Downers for going on fifty years now, but it's a genre that deserves better and was born with nobler aspirations. I firmly believe that authors who capture that sense of wonder, the expansionist yearning of old, will be rewarded with loyal readers.


Exploration and expansionism have a pretty dark past, man. I wind up feeling that way about a lot of ostensibly rollicking good times. Storytellers get away with dubious, not-actually-good-or-clean-fun by making the villains into irredeemable demons in human(ish) form. Nazis, for example. They're empty calories. You can kill 'em by the dozen and never feel full. Granted, stories like _The Martian_ can do a good job avoiding such pitfalls, but we're often expected to go along for the ride and ignore any concerns about things like mass killings or a star-faring policy of Manifest Destiny. Everybody's utopia, somebody's dystopia, &c.

I think...huh. I think if there's one thing that interests me, it might be why good people--or possibly ambiguous people--do bad things. I'm not interested in it as a lecture about hubris, but more as an exploration of motive and compassion. I wonder if it'll come out that way.

Interesting discussion. I'm glad this thread has done such a poor job of staying on topic.

OH! And speaking of Star Trek, you're telling me the Klingons are evolved from ARTHROPODS CRUSTACEANS? Why is nobody talking about this?! How is this even...I literally _can't_ even!


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> I think...huh. I think if there's one thing that interests me, it might be why good people--or possibly ambiguous people--do bad things. I'm not interested in it as a lecture about hubris, but more as an exploration of motive and compassion. I wonder if it'll come out that way.


In the space opera I'm working on, I'm hoping the bad guys have more depth than just cardboard cutout Nazis. I mean, there are some that are, you know, pretty bad and there are ones that are sort of mindless followers and then there are ones that think they're the good guys. I hope it comes across that way. Not sure if I have the skills to pull it off.



> OH! And speaking of Star Trek, you're telling me the Klingons are evolved from ARTHROPODS? Why is nobody talking about this?! How is this even...I literally _can't_ even!


In real _Star Trek_ or in _Abrams Trek_?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> In real _Star Trek_ or in _Abrams Trek_?


I think I screwed it up, it's CRUSTACEANS. See, ST:TNG S07 E19, _Genesis_.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> I think I screwed it up, it's CRUSTACEANS. See, ST:TNG S07 E19, _Genesis_.


Barclay devolved into a spider and I'm pretty sure humans didn't evolve from spiders.


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## Magnus (May 1, 2016)

If you go by the 'Ancient Klingons' in the newest Star Trek: Discovery trailer, then they're apparently evolved from Cardassians dipped in bronze.

Although crustaceans makes sense. Ever had a Klingon, boiled, served with butter? It's no wonder they're so angry all the time, I'd be bitter and paranoid if I were that delicious.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Magnus said:


> If you go by the 'Ancient Klingons' in the newest Star Trek: Discovery trailer, then they're apparently evolved from Cardassians dipped in bronze.


They look like the "Klingons" in _Star Trek Into Darkness_ but _Star Trek: Discovery_ was supposed to be set in the Prime universe, not the alternate universe.

_Discovery_ might end up with fewer seasons than _Enterprise_. Still bummed there was no season five of _Enterprise_ because they had planned to make Shran a regular.


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## AliceS (Dec 28, 2014)

Lummox JR said:


> I'm sure there's a market for upbeat sci-fi. Books about alien invasions and epic galactic wars aren't all there is to it. There's room for all kinds of things there.
> 
> ...
> 
> But I get where you're coming from, because honestly I'm that way about fantasy. I don't read a lot of fantasy, and it's because so much of it seems like it's about saving the kingdom from some ancient evil--or else it may end up being sprawling series that I find daunting to get into. I wouldn't mind seeing more small-scale stuff, a quest that doesn't have the whole world at stake; that was actually one of the motivations behind writing my latest.


I hope there is room. I've got a lost culture hiding in plain sight series that isn't getting a lot of love. I've only got the 1st book out, so I'm hoping that's the reason. But this book isn't about space battles, there is no Big Bad. It's more about interspecies relations and discovery in a Star Trek type of universe.

And I agree with you about fantasy. Have you tried Daniel Abraham? Love his stuff. His books have a smaller focus and so far his series are 3-4 books I think. And of course Robin Hobb. Her series go in trilogies.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Barclay devolved into a spider and I'm pretty sure humans didn't evolve from spiders.


I'm not sure I believe Barclay was a human to begin with. Surely he's a special case.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> I'm not sure I believe Barclay was a human to begin with. Surely he's a special case.


Too bad they didn't have Wesley on board at the time. They could have had him devolve into a human since he was supposed to be a more advanced human.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Just had a look over in the teen/YA SF category and it seems a wasteland for proper SF.  it is mostly dystopian and a whole lot of stuff that seems to have been miscategorised - there are a bunch of fairy tales in there.

There are also very few categories - and things like space opera, space marines, space fleets don't make an appearance - at least in ebooks.  Physical books seem to have a space opera category bizarrely.

Are kids just not into SF much these days?


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

A. S. Warwick said:


> Are kids just not into SF much these days?


As I said earlier in the thread, my impression of YA has always been that it's extremely difficult to sell as an indy. One of the authors I've worked with wrote an eight-novel YA series thinking that they must sell well, because...you know..._Twilight_, _Hunger Games_, _Maze Runner_, _Divergent_...the market's booming, right?

Nope.

I'm afraid those are all grotesque outliers. Tradpub outliers at that; nobody's ever convinced me that YA is receptive to indies. There's a lot of factors at play, but let's be real about the main takeaway: people who read books are old.

As an example, BookBub had a recent post on their user demographics. Their findings squared with what I already knew about readers, so my sense is that they're pretty representative of the market as a whole. Less than 2% of their users are under the age of 25. 77% are 45 or older. Close to a third are 65 or older, and over a third are retired. 74% are married and 76% are female.

Sci Fi is going to have a slightly different audience than that general population, but it's not going to be _that_ different (I actually think we can do a lot better with women if we keep writing more books that aren't actively hostile or contemptuous towards them--there's no future in writing books for men). I don't think many of us have a mental model of e-readers as a product for people of a certain age or older, but they are, for the most part.

That doesn't mean that young people aren't consuming SF at all, mind you--they're consuming it with gusto in different forms. Kids just don't buy ebooks. They don't even browse them. It's not an opportunity so much as a trap.

Of course, some adults read YA. If you decide to go against the grain and write to that market, I think you'll actually be writing mainly to adults who want YA themes and content. And possibly praying for a miracle.


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## Linn (Feb 2, 2016)

A. S. Warwick said:


> Are kids just not into SF much these days?


Here's a YA space opera listopia: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/77911.Best_YA_Sci_Fi_Space_Opera

The top of the list looks heavy on books that cater to the teen romance crowd. Some of the others aren't necessarily aimed at young readers, though they do feature young protagonists.


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## Kal241 (Jan 11, 2017)

Grimdark sci-fi is more along the lines of Warhammer 40K and Borderlands and such, but plenty of sci-fi settings include grimdark elements. War of the Worlds, 1984 *cringes at the title*, even The Giver series had grimdark elements. The Hyperion Cantos got pretty dark when Kassad's part came up, didn't it? A lot of sci-fi today has darker parts to it, which automatically makes it easier to pile adversity onto the protagonist(s), and the audience just loves seeing characters get tortured. This makes it the go-to option for many writers.

But that's never been all there is. Plenty of upbeat sci-fi out there. WH40K even experimented with a less grimdark setting in the adventures of Commissar Cain. And anyone remember N.O.R.B.Y, that barrel-shaped robot? That series was pretty light-hearted.

Mind you, I can't talk much, since my own work starts as a semi-grim dystopia and devolves into grimdark by turning multiple tropes on their heads. Oh, the rebels won the fight? Guess what, they're evil. That "evil" empire they were fighting? They're not good, but they're definitely not the bad guys. That awesome armored protagonist you love? I just killed him off, and a lesser character takes his place. The good guys save the day? Oh, that doesn't matter; the bad guy lived, and managed to twist their victory into a defeat. Etc.


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## Tulonsae (Apr 12, 2015)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> I don't think Nic believes in big R Romance, with its craven insistence on HEAs. He's a bit of a small R romantic that way. (I agree with you and Patty.)


The distinction of Planetary Romance from genre romance is that the SF and the R are on the same level of importance to the book. Take away one and it wouldn't work anymore as a story. The romance Patty talks about works just fine without the SF elements in it. Planetary Romance doesn't. It also is, as a genre, older than RWA-defined romance. So yes, it doesn't always follow the RWA rules, which is no problem, because it isn't a genre romance.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Tulonsae said:


> My son (older teen) reads a LOT. But he doesn't read eBooks. He reads fan fic sites and such. I buy him physical books, they sit untouched (even though I specifically have him pick them out). I offer to buy him eBooks, he says no. But he's always reading online - free stuff.


Right, young folks do read. I'd bet they read more words each day than any previous generation, bar none. They just don't necessarily read them out of books. And when they do, even the millennial bookworms I know tend to prefer a musty paperback to an e-reader. Hardcopies aren't just for old codgers and, conversely, plenty of old codgers have taken to their Kindles like fish to water.

I'm certainly not worried about the future of literacy. I do wonder how form factors and business models for writers will change.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Dolphin said:


> Right, young folks do read. I'd bet they read more words each day than any previous generation, bar none. They just don't necessarily read them out of books. And when they do, even the millennial bookworms I know tend to prefer a musty paperback to an e-reader. Hardcopies aren't just for old codgers and, conversely, plenty of old codgers have taken to their Kindles like fish to water.
> 
> I'm certainly not worried about the future of literacy. I do wonder how form factors and business models for writers will change.


Yup. There are just so many misconceptions about reading within generations, I could write an essay to unpack them.

Young people prefer print books. They like a physical object to put on their shelves and to lend to friends.

They stop liking print when they've moved once, because 1. books are heavy, 2. where the bloody hell do you put them in a tiny student room, 3. They do not fit in a backpack when travelling.

Young people who love reading often stop doing this once one of these things happens: 1. they get a partner, 2. they get a job/full time study, 3. they need a weekend job to fund said study, 4. they get married, 5. they have kids, because hey! Soccer matches on weekends. No frikken time for reading.

Then peeps turn about 40-ish, the kids can look after themselves, mum & dad are no longer cool, most of the mortgage has been paid off and the career-making drive has been replaced by the golf drive, and suddenly they have some serious me-time beyond the "collapse on the couch at the end of the day" variety.

Those peeps have money, they have time, they are committed, they soon realise that they have no room for millions of books, so they go to ereaders. They are also, have always been and will always be, the most voracious readers in the biggest numbers. Nothing to do with "OMG! Young people are not reading anymore! Reading is dying out!!!!"


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Dolphin said:


> And when they do, even the millennial bookworms I know tend to prefer a musty paperback to an e-reader. Hardcopies aren't just for old codgers and, conversely, plenty of old codgers have taken to their Kindles like fish to water.


Most of those under 30 years I know use neither Kindle, nor printed books. They read on their phones. Something I couldn't do even if I tried hard.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> They stop liking print when they've moved once, because 1. books are heavy, 2. where the bloody hell do you put them in a tiny student room, 3. They do not fit in a backpack when travelling.


PREACH.

My buddy keeps buying more paperbacks for his considerable library, despite a potential move coming up in a couple months. Makes my heart race just thinking about it. Doesn't stop him from looking askance at my Paperwhite, though.

I think you're on the right track about the reading lifecycle too. We'll get those whippersnappers eventually.



Nic said:


> Most of those under 30 years I know use neither Kindle, nor printed books. They read on their phones. Something I couldn't do even if I tried hard.


I nearly fit that category and I don't get that either. It's awful. A well-designed website is one thing, but even Amazon's Look Inside for phones is unbearable.


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## alexnewton (Jun 17, 2015)

Dolphin said:


> I'm not sure if we could come up with a blind set of criteria to tell you whether or not your genre's worth writing, but there's existing tools like KDP Rocket or K-Lytics that try to do that work for you (I haven't used any myself and couldn't recommend any).


Dave's tool KDP Rocket is great, especially for keyword research in your genre. Our focus at *K-lytics* is more category-based and tailor-made e-book market research and trend analysis. We have recently finished an extensive research project on the Science Fiction & Fantasy genre, taking an in-depth look at some 70 sub- and sub-sub-markets. The study is available for purchase here: 
*=> Science & Fiction and Fantasy Market Study + Video Seminar*


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

Nic said:


> They read on their phones. Something I couldn't do even if I tried hard.


Some people WRITE on their phones. Lay it sideways and connect a keyboard.


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## Magnus (May 1, 2016)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Some people WRITE on their phones. Lay it sideways and connect a keyboard.


I used to do that with a tablet at work during my lunch break; bought a cheap $15 bluetooth keyboard and spent the lunch hour typing. The worst part of it was how small the damn thing was, but on the whole it was actually quite productive.

I do know one (top 50) Romance author on Amazon who typed a novel entirely on their phone, via the swipe text. Obviously needed quite a bit of editing, but to this day they swear that it was the fastest first draft they've ever put down - 5 minutes spare here, 2 minutes there. All added up over what was then their day job.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Magnus said:


> I do know one (top 50) Romance author on Amazon who typed a novel entirely on their phone, via the swipe text. Obviously needed quite a bit of editing, but to this day they swear that it was the fastest first draft they've ever put down - 5 minutes spare here, 2 minutes there. All added up over what was then their day job.


Impressive work ethic, at least. I do that with my Neo when I can't get a sprint in, 5-10 minutes here and there do add up. As much as I like my smartphone, I don't think I could use it to draft a novel.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Some people WRITE on their phones. Lay it sideways and connect a keyboard.


I'm going to write my next book (~20k, non-fiction) on my phone on a 23-hour plane flight. I bought Scrivener for iPhone, and I plan to write with my thumbs. I don't type fast anyway. If it doesn't work, I'll pick up a bluetooth keyboard when I get to Singapore. I'm sure some place at the airport will sell them and I have a few hours to hang around there.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

I didn't mean just ebooks by themselves when I asked about teens and SF - it seems SF across the board isn't a big interest to them currently.

I work in a school library and I noticed a real lack of SF available in the YA area.  What YA SF is out there seems to be either dystopian labeled as SF even if it isn't really, romance or based on games/movies, like Star Wars or Halo.  Even tradpub is putting out very little in the more traditional style of SF.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

A. S. Warwick said:


> I didn't mean just ebooks by themselves when I asked about teens and SF - it seems SF across the board isn't a big interest to them currently.
> 
> I work in a school library and I noticed a real lack of SF available in the YA area. What YA SF is out there seems to be either dystopian labeled as SF even if it isn't really, romance or based on games/movies, like Star Wars or Halo. Even tradpub is putting out very little in the more traditional style of SF.


Right, apart from a few exceptions like film/gaming IPs or dystopian, SF has been neglected by tradpub. That's where we've had such a great opportunity as indies to break out and dominate the marketplace. I don't know why they have no interest in giving people their Space Marine fix, but it suits me.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Dolphin said:


> Right, apart from a few exceptions like film/gaming IPs or dystopian, SF has been neglected by tradpub. That's where we've had such a great opportunity as indies to break out and dominate the marketplace. I don't know why they have no interest in giving people their Space Marine fix, but it suits me.


This really gives me hope that my humor sci-fi series is going to do well.


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## Spinneyhead (Nov 4, 2010)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Some people WRITE on their phones. Lay it sideways and connect a keyboard.


I've written substantial chunks of some books on my phone. In portrait mode, and making the most of auto-correct. More often, nowadays, I'll write on a small tablet with keyboard case, because it's easier to cart around than my laptop. I still revert to the phone when I have an idea on the bus or late at night.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Dolphin,

I think the problem with traditional publishers is simply that the people who work there gravitate toward a different kind of science fiction, as do the more "institutional" reviewers, and much of the structure of the industry.  This isn't a political rant, it's just a fact.  If you put ESPN in the hands of a bunch of fanatical basketball fans, you're likely to see more basketball and less football and baseball.  You'll also probably see basketball analysis shows that are better, and the ones for other sports won't be as good.  It's not a conspiracy, but it is reality nevertheless.

I like all the people I've worked with at publishers, from my editor to the marketing staff, and contrary to popular assessments, they are neither incapable nor blind to current market realities.  But I know my kind of book is a reach for them, and my indie-published stuff has sold more than the ones they published have, even after factoring in the wide print distribution they bring to the table.  Other than Baen, it's not really their pool, and they just don't swim in it as well as they do in ones more familiar.  Mil SF has migrated heavily to ebooks, for example, and publishers are still bound by considerations related to their print markets.

Publishers are never going to be great at selling something that is outside the normal interest zone of their employees, and there is a good lesson there for writers.  If you write mil SF because you've decided there is a market opportunity, but it is not something where you've read a bunch of books and understand the genre, don't expect a lot of success.  You'll be in the same boat as many publishers, trying to find your way in an unfamiliar market.  There is a lot of competition out there, despite the assertions of this thread that too few books are published, and many of those writers understand the readers very well.

If you understand the genre well and think you can write what the readers want, I'd also recommend accepting the fact that you need to match a relatively high quality bar in terms of professional covers, tight, well-written descriptions, solid editing, etc.  That all carries a cost, and if you are unwilling or unable to hit these standards, you are trying to swim carrying a large stone.  I'm not unsympathetic to those who might have trouble with budgeting the funds for all of this, but I'm not going to lie and say it doesn't make a difference.  You're competing against authors buying custom artwork and hiring a second artist to do titles on it.  They're working with editors they've chosen and worked with before, and often they often have people working with them on their marketing, etc.  That is the level in the genre right now, and every way a new entrant falls short of those standards, it is that much less chance of them gaining any real success.


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## Magnus (May 1, 2016)

I'd argue that the rise of the big-budget VFX summer movie has a lot to do with it, as well. Why bother waiting a year for a sci-fi book to hit the shelves and make a few hundred thou' (if you're crazy lucky) when you can just take that same plot, farm it through a dozen screenwriters, and have it make a cool three hundred mil at the box office? We're seeing it with the comics industry; the comics themselves, the source for the billion-dollar franchises that have dominated as of late, are basically inconsequential, as all the good storylines and writers work on the movies.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jay! I appreciate the feedback.

Personally, I've read in the genre and would strongly second your encouragement for any other aspirants to do the same. Whether or not I'll hit all of the genre expectations is another question entirely; I can but try. I'm more concerned about the upfront costs for quality production that you mentioned, but hoping that my background and connections in design will help.

With regard to the _amount_ of competition, I'll stand by my assertion that there's room for more. This isn't to minimize the challenge, of course--every day it gets harder and harder to compete as a newcomer. I just think that this market is one that can bear more entrants, and I wanted to counter the notion that Mil SF has become oversaturated. I'm not seeing signs of that yet. Increasing competition, yes, but Mil SF fans will read more books if we deliver the quality and content they want.

This business has always brought challenges, and they're only getting worse. They're still patently surmountable. Anybody who's writing Mil SF should have a sense of how much easier it is to make it as a writer, versus making it as a warrior. Stay motivated and drive on.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying the market is oversaturated, just that I can say from experience, it takes more effort than before to reach the top of the charts.  There is MUCH more competition, and more capable competition, than there was in, say, 2013. 

Also, I was by no means saying someone without the resources for quality covers and editing should not publish if they wish to, merely that they would be well served to realize they have a greatly reduced chance at significant sales success, even if their writing is very good. 

Lastly, my point about reading and understanding the genre, again, for those seeking sales success, just means if you expect people to buy your books, you have to write what they want to read, and the various sub-genres all have certain things the bulk of readers like and don't like.  Just know, if what you're writing is a mish-mosh of sub-genres, perhaps some conglomeration of things you find interesting, it may end up being confusing to readers (not as a book, necessarily, but as a three paragraph sales pitch), and consequently, not sell very well (even if it is a very good book).


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Content removed. I don't consent to the new TOS of 2018.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Funny... I've been thinking about a humor SF series lately, too. I've even sketched out the characters and world-building a little. Great minds think alike, it seems.


I'm not actually doing it for trend purposes. I came up with the characters and story back in 2001 with the intention of making a webcomic, only to realize I lacked the artistic talent to do it justice. But I loved the story so much I kept writing scripts. So recently I decided to make it into a bunch of novels instead. It's a story that wanted to be told.


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