# If the 'conventional' writing advice and wisdom is correct...



## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?

Everyone touts the same 'gospel' of writing advice, yet how many of them actually support themselves with their writing? The truth is, you won't find the answers by googling 'how to become a writer' or other such drivel. The ones who succeed are either:

A. Lucky - chance discovery, etc. 

B. Cracked the code and found a different path, that isn't advertised 

C. A and B! 

All these books and articles claiming to tell others how to become an author are... pitiful! Realistically, they're just there to cash in on the many people HOPING to be successful. If they had the answers, then why aren't you all successes?! 

The point is, you need to start thinking for yourself. Otherwise you'll be yet another nameless, squawking parrot all your life.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

It depends on your idea of success. 
If you want to win writing awards then stick to conventional writing advice. If you want to make money then write a 50 Shades of Grey


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

But I just want a cracker.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

For business advice, yes, I can see how that's right. For _craft_ advice, though, I think you're wrong.

Writing is not just art, and not just business. There is a craft element as well, just as there's a craft to woodworking, or shoemaking, or any other skilled work. There are elements of writing that not only can be learned, but _must_ be learned if you are to write well. These not only include things like proper spelling and grammar, but how to write compelling dialogue, how to hook a reader on the first page of the story, how to infuse a scene with suspense, etc. These elements of craft hold true through all books, and you ignore them at your own peril.

Which is not to say that you have to learn all the rules and stay with them. On the contrary, someone who has _truly_ mastered all the craft rules knows exactly how to break them, so that the rules serve the story instead of the other way around. But there's more to writing success than just luck. Lightning is much more likely to hit a pole when it's set up on a rooftop, not when it's buried under a pile of rubble.

In my experience, the trifecta is art, craft, and business. You have to master your craft, you have to possess a driving artistic vision, and you have to learn the nuts and bolts of the business in order to truly succeed.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

The best advice I received with regards to writing my own books comes from a ten time NYT Best Selling author and friend of mine.

"Write what you love to read, and your readers will love it as well.  Remember when you are taking advice from Internet writers forums, that most of us who actually do this for a living don't hang out on Internet writers forums."

I do read and absorb advice from here and other forums, but in the end it's about what I want to produce and what my readers want to read. If we disconnect, I won't sell any books and will have failed to achieve my personal goals.  If I follow the cookie-cutter approach and crank out one formula book after another, I also will not succeed and will have failed to achieve my personal goals.

In the end, I hope that I am able to write my stories my way and generate a following for my work that appreciates what I do.  For me, I need both to consider myself a success.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

thewitt said:


> "Write what you love to read, and your readers will love it as well. Remember when you are taking advice from Internet writers forums, that most of us who actually do this for a living don't hang out on Internet writers forums."


I'm almost certain we don't have the same writer friend, but this is advice that I've had before as well


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## Molly Tomorrow (Jul 22, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The truth is, you won't find the answers by googling 'how to become a writer' or other such drivel.


This applies to pretty much everything, not just writing and is stating the obvious. You're manufacturing "you all" to insult and belittle that simply doesn't exist.

We get that you enjoy feeling superior on the internet at every opportunity. Your posting has made that abundantly clear. But when you get so desperate that you need to invent a "you all" to feel superior too you come across as pretty desperate and needy. Just a heads up. Have a fab day


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't really have anything to add, except to say how pleased I am to see DD back, I know some people consider you a little controversial but I think your posts are absolute gold dust.

Also that the writer who said they don't hang out in forums because they are too busy being "real writers" can seriously stick their **** up their **** and ******** ****** *** **.  It takes a lot to insult me, but that makes me absolutely furious!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> Also that the writer who said they don't hang out in forums because they are too busy being "real writers" can seriously stick their **** up their **** and ******** ****** *** **. It takes a lot to insult me, but that makes me absolutely furious!


I'm still laughing and trying to parse the asterisks.

I would have said "got his head so far up his **** that he can see out his mouth". Don't hang out on forums? Seriously, what is Hugh? A turkey?


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The ones who succeed are either:
> 
> A. Lucky - chance discovery, etc.
> 
> ...


When I submitted my first book to London publishers, it was very well received. Some of the rejection slips were standard replies with a comment added at the end, others were personal replies. The editors enjoyed reading the sample chapters I sent, but the book didn't fit onto their lists. Publishers spend decades building up a readership for certain types/genre of books. This is a costly process, but once that readership is established, cost savings are made by feeding the ready-made readership with more books of the same ilk. I was advised to visit book stores and libraries to check out the books by the different publishers and only submit work that fitted onto the lists of each individual publisher. This alone will not ensure publication, but it will get a new author onto the first rung of the ladder.

Many self-published authors are fixated on writing the books they want to write that no one wants to read. E. L. James interacted with her readers as she wrote and listened to their comments. When they said more of this and less of this, she complied. We all know the outcome!


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## BatCauldron (Oct 2, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm still laughing and trying to parse the asterisks.
> 
> I would have said "got his head so far up his **** that he can see out his mouth". Don't hang out on forums? Seriously, what is Hugh? A turkey?


I frequent a fantasy forum on which Sam Sykes, Mark Lawrence, Brian McClellan and loads of others often post. I dare say a LOT of authors still come and visit forums like KBoards and Reddit because it keeps them in touch with other authors and, importantly, their readers. It helps keep their name in a lot of people's minds. To suggest that people reach a certain level of success and then say, "Welp. Guess I don't 'ave t' hang around with THESE dummies no more," is nonsense of such epic proportions that Tolkein would have said, "Coo, that's big."

Of course he would have taken 29 pages to say it and then Tom arsing Bombadil would have turned up and ruined everyone's morning.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

thewitt said:


> Remember when you are taking advice from Internet writers forums, that most of us who actually do this for a living don't hang out on Internet writers forums."


I always took this advice to mean that writers write. They don't talk about writing. They don't pontificate about writing. They don't continuously regale the forums with their cute/cheerful/serious/heartening/disheartening tales. They're too busy _writing_.

But I think everyone needs down time and what better way for _writers_ to do that than to congregate with other writers around the coffee machine and shoot the breeze, maybe talk a little shop, before putting their head down and getting back to it.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?
> 
> Everyone touts the same 'gospel' of writing advice, yet how many of them actually support themselves with their writing? The truth is, you won't find the answers by googling 'how to become a writer' or other such drivel. The ones who succeed are either:
> 
> ...


I don't think it's that simple. Yes, you do have a point that if the same path worked for everyone, then every writer who followed that path would be successful. Like any business endeavor, there are a lot of things that can happen. No one can guarantee success, especially in a field as subjective as writing.

And yeah, there are writing guides out there that are total bullcrap and clearly just someone trying to cash in on the Kindle gold rush. I've seen some "how to be a successful fiction author" books by people whose body of work consists exclusively of "how to be a successful fiction author" books--they don't have any fiction out there and if they do, they're not talking about it.

But the writing advice that's genuine does tend to include the disclaimer that there are no guarantees to success.

You could do everything right and follow every piece of advice in those writing guides and still fail. Maybe you can't connect with an audience, maybe your genre is too overcrowded, or maybe your writing just isn't that good. But just because not everyone makes it even if they've followed the path that others walked doesn't mean that the path is no longer there. I was always told growing up that if I chose the career path of a lawyer, success would be guaranteed. And yet I do know people who finished law school and can't find work. There are no guarantees in any profession.

Also it should be noted that not everyone _does_ follow the "gospel" advice and not everyone is interested in becoming a career author. Some are just hobbyists putting out their work for fun or to make some extra pocket change.

Is there luck involved? Sure, I'll agree with that. But I think the important thing to take away from those writing guides is that there are some best practices that will increase your chances of becoming successful. And if there are a lot of people who have found success by doing the same things, then I think that's something that's at least worth trying.


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## delly_xo (Oct 29, 2014)

Honestly those books make me paranoid and I get analysis paralysis like I'm doing something wrong. Creates a well of insecurity in me, so now I've stopped reading them. This is just me, btw, others might benefit greatly.


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## Christine Tate (Feb 24, 2014)

thewitt said:


> The best advice I received with regards to writing my own books comes from a ten time NYT Best Selling author and friend of mine.
> 
> "Write what you love to read, and your readers will love it as well. Remember when you are taking advice from Internet writers forums, that most of us who actually do this for a living don't hang out on Internet writers forums."
> 
> ...


I'd like to add don't be afraid to find a niche market and settle in. I write in an extremely specific genre (Christian non-fiction) with an even narrower target market (women who attend Bible studies), but I have done and continue to do well in it. It generates steady, consistent sales and while I'm not a Joyce Meyers or Beth Moore (yet), I do better than many aspiring writers who are lucky to sell 100 books in a year (about the amount I consistently sell every month). In the end, it's about finding your passion, honing your skills until you're good at what you do, then roll up your sleeves and get to work writing and marketing (with special emphasis on marketing).


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?
> 
> Everyone touts the same 'gospel' of writing advice, yet how many of them actually support themselves with their writing? The truth is, you won't find the answers by googling 'how to become a writer' or other such drivel. The ones who succeed are either:
> 
> ...


Should have a poll, but i'll play. It's A... am I right?


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Writing a bestseller is like playing poker.

You can study all the maths of poker, learn all the strategy and become a very skilled card player, what you can't control is the hand you're dealt.

I've lost count the amount of golden hands i've been played that have been beaten, and i've laughed at all the flyers i've taken on rag cards that drop a huge pot. I've had ace pairs, king pairs, nut flushes in a row on measly pots then hundreds of hands of off suit low number rags.

I'm a competent poker player but even phil Ivey gets busted out of the WSP by rank amateurs.

So my point is, you can do absolutely everything right and for whatever reason you hit publish and your golden hand misses the flop. sometimes it recovers on the river card, or you can bluff your way to a big pot with bookbub et al. But the simple fact is given the volume of books out there each book has a random chance of truly resonating with enough readers to completely catch fire.

Even bookbub with its 2m odd subscriber list has yet to have a book that more than a few thousand people bought at heavy discount. They certainly haven't had the power yet to create someone to match lee child's numbers so that only takes you so far. And for the one Lee child the publishers produced hundreds if not thousands of duff hands.

We can bluff a share of the pot with promos and marketing but the nut flush? The hunger games? Game of thrones - jack reacher - they are chance cards that you may never see no matter how many hands you play that were dealt to authors who could have as easily have missed the flop.

So there really is no point trying to imagine you are going to a bestsellet. Bob Mayers advice is solid: practice your craft, write solid books for the long term and focus on building your core loyal readership to make a modest but sustainable income, because the most successful players are the ones who can play every hand well and take pots with mid-range hands rather than bleeding chips waiting for a monster.

When you talk about luck you are actually talking mathematical probability with a dose of chaos theory for good measure. There is a statistical probability of your book being a bestseller and all the work you do increases that probability,  and the controlling math is X million readers individual decision to purchase, just as in a game of poker how big a pot you take down is determined by the individual decisions of other players to gamble against you. 

So the big unknown quotient that no guide can give you is how to control the purchasing decisions of millions of individual consumers all at the same point in time. Once you realise that then you can sleep soundly knowing no matter what you write it is the will of the market that determines the outcome, not your decision to include a prologue or some other do this and be a success mantra.

And if you could figure out a way to control the buying behaviour of millions of consumers with some magic bullet theory, you'd make a lot more money running an advertising agency than writing books.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

That poker analogy is pretty brilliant. Don't think I could find a better way to describe it.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

It does seem there is an over abundance of how to be an "authorpreneur" speakers. Most of which make more money on speaking engagements (which in turn push up their sales) than writing new books. This phenomenon reminds me of the day trading craze in 2000. Just like then when the easy money was gone, the "pro day traders" touted their "system" (a tactic that only "worked" once or twice) which made them more money than actually trading. 

I like the poker analogy.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> It depends on your idea of success.
> If you want to win writing awards then stick to conventional writing advice. If you want to make money then write a 50 Shades of Grey


Speaking of 50 Shades of Grey (which I haven't read), has there been a thread on here discussing why _that _book, in particular, out of 1500 others similar to it, became such a hit? It can't be the first book with a semi-bad boy 29-year-old billionaire teaching a virgin the bedroom ropes. Or is it? Surely not...?

What do the wise people on here say about that?

(sorry if this is a discussion that has been beaten to death already - if so, pls point me to the right thread)


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> I don't really have anything to add, except to say how pleased I am to see DD back, I know some people consider you a little controversial but I think your posts are absolute gold dust.
> 
> Also that the writer who said they don't hang out in forums because they are too busy being "real writers" can seriously stick their **** up their **** and ******** ****** *** ****. It takes a lot to insult me, but that makes me absolutely furious!


Umm... Can you clarify what the bolded stars represent, please?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

When considering taking the advice of an "expert" on selling books check to see if they are expert at selling books to writers (i.e., ones that tell writers how to succeed) or at selling books to readers (any book not telling writers how to sell books to readers). The plumb-line test is whether they tell you to build up a following on Twitter. Have you noticed how often #amwriting is trending on Twitter? Any writer who tells you to build a following on Twitter is a writer who knows nothing about selling books to readers.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> Speaking of 50 Shades of Grey (which I haven't read), has there been a thread on here discussing why _that _book, in particular, out of 1500 others similar to it, became such a hit? It can't be the first book with a semi-bad boy 29-year-old billionaire teaching a virgin the bedroom ropes. Or is it? Surely not...?
> 
> What do the wise people on here say about that?
> 
> (sorry if this is a discussion that has been beaten to death already - if so, pls point me to the right thread)


It has been beaten to death and beyond; use the site search in the upper right hand corner or use Google "50 Shades" site:KBoards.com.

Betsy


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## dgrant (Feb 5, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?
> 
> Everyone touts the same 'gospel' of writing advice, yet how many of them actually support themselves with their writing? *The truth is*, you won't find the answers by googling 'how to become a writer' or other such drivel. The ones who succeed are either:


Ah, so I need to ignore all the other people, and follow your one true way? 

Seriously, there's no career path ever that had guaranteed success. Even accountants can find themselves out of work and desperately trying to find something, anything, that nets them enough experience to take the CPA exam - and even that won't guarantee a good job, much less the rockin' amazing job of high-powered internal auditing on international banks for huge salary.

Publishing shares some traits with the firearms and aviation industry - namely, a lot of people get into it because they're passionate about the subject, and only after they're stuck in do they try to figure out a way to make a living at it. Which means most small businesses, whether they're an author with five books out or a guy in Iowa with an AgCat in the hangar, are barely profitable or don't actually make enough to survive without supplemental income. They're usually terribly run from the business, accounting, and marketing end - but the writing and the flying, those are awesome. This is normal.

There is a huge element of luck - not everyone gets a chance at publishing a bestseller, or flying in air races for a living. There's also a large element of being prepared to catch that luck and ride it hard. We had good sales with our first books, and then shot ourselves in the foot by not getting any more books in the series out in a year. (There were, of course, reasons. But there are always reasons; they don't matter against what we did or did not do.)

There is a strong element of craft. Even when George Carlin was a roaring success in the world of stand-up comedy, he was still working hard, spending hours polishing and repolishing his material, constantly testing it against audiences to see if he could make it just that much better. Readers have proven that they'll sometimes forgive clunky writing in search of an excellent story, but they rarely forgive a clunky story with excellent writing. So we constantly strive to make the writing clear enough to get out of the way of the story, and then refine telling the story. Dialogue, character arcs, subplots, magic systems, foreshadowing, what specific subgenres of romance will and won't forgive in the H/h, research into plausible escapes / murders / action scenes - we'll never stop learning.

And last but by no means unimportant, there's a very large element of running it like a business. If you're submitting trad pub, this includes always having something out for submission, even if that means juggling multiple pen names, and trying to find a way to get enough attention you'll get the marketing push from your publisher, breaking into the major release instead of the interchangeable and ignored midlist. If you're indie, this means always working on your next book, and finding a way to work on your marking push yourself without a trad-pub budget.

I've yet to see anyone be a success without hard work, persistence, a work ethic, and sticking through all the unfun bits.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Listen to those who've had success and use what applies to you. There's nothing that works across the board for every writer and every genre. 

I heard a great quote that I agree with: "Success is when luck meets hard work." 

Learn from others, adjust what you're doing, go with what works, learn from what doesn't, and most importantly - be flexible. They sky is always going to fall in this business.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> I don't really have anything to add, except to say how pleased I am to see DD back, I know some people consider you a little controversial but I think your posts are absolute gold dust.
> 
> Also that the writer who said they don't hang out in forums because they are too busy being "real writers" can seriously stick their **** up their **** and ******** ****** *** **. It takes a lot to insult me, but that makes me absolutely furious!


I rather like what you said. An X rated mad lib. Noun, noun, adverb, verb, noun?


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

I'm a full-time author now because I listened to advice posted here.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Joe Vasicek said:


> For business advice, yes, I can see how that's right. For _craft_ advice, though, I think you're wrong.
> 
> Writing is not just art, and not just business. There is a craft element as well, just as there's a craft to woodworking, or shoemaking, or any other skilled work. There are elements of writing that not only can be learned, but _must_ be learned if you are to write well. These not only include things like proper spelling and grammar, but how to write compelling dialogue, how to hook a reader on the first page of the story, how to infuse a scene with suspense, etc. These elements of craft hold true through all books, and you ignore them at your own peril.
> 
> ...


Joe is 100% correct. But, yes, luck has to be considered. I got lucky. I had no idea what I was doing when I wrote and published my first. Seriously, No Idea At All. I can spin a yarn pretty good, though. But, unless a good many people find it, success will be out ahead of you. To get lucky isn't difficult. Knowing what that brass ring looks like in all its many forms is the key. Having a plan in place and being ready to go when chance presents itself is the lock. Chance favors the prepared mind. Along with grammar, punctuation, flow, and marketing, planning is something every writer has to not only learn, but embrace.

My spreadsheet has a promo planning section. It includes publication date for each title, as well as KDP renewal dates, last promo date, and last BookBub date. I have it on my schedule to apply to BookBub for dates near 2/9 (already applied), 3/9, 4/9, 6/1, 7/1, and 8/1. These dates didn't just pop up in that order. They've been planned since last spring, when I first started learning about marketing books right here on KBoards. Their KDP renewal dates are progressive as well. Planned release dates of future books was added to the spreadsheet last spring as well.

Yeah, I got lucky. But, I had all my ducks in a row and was ready for it. Would I be at the same level if I hadn't gotten lucky? Who knows. Probably not. But, I can guarantee that had I not known what she looked like and been ready, Lady Luck will have sailed right on by.

Right now, I'm just learning how to write a good story. My series is me cutting my teeth. One of my favorite authors wrote eight books in a series under a pen name. He's now a wildly successful author, with twenty-one books in a new and very popular series. Most readers have never heard of Randy Striker and the _Dusky MacMorgan_ series. But what action/adventure mystery reader hasn't heard of Randy Wayne White and his _Doc Ford_ novels. Jesse McDermitt is my Dusky MacMorgan. Huh, how about that. Similar names. Chance or planning? 

I guess my point is this. Those who fail to plan, plan to fail. Whether by intent or accident doesn't matter. Writing is a hobby. Selling books is a business. Without a business plan, the chance of success is diminished.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

dirtiestdevil said:


> Then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?


1. The same reason so few artists in any field make a successful career or living from their art.
2. The same reason so few small business owners in any industry make a successful career or living at it.

It's not exactly rocket science.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

dgrant said:


> *Ah, so I need to ignore all the other people, and follow your one true way? *
> 
> Seriously, there's no career path ever that had guaranteed success. Even accountants can find themselves out of work and desperately trying to find something, anything, that nets them enough experience to take the CPA exam - and even that won't guarantee a good job, much less the rockin' amazing job of high-powered internal auditing on international banks for huge salary.
> 
> ...


Now you're catching on! Yes, just do everything I say! Muhuhaha!

But in reality, I couldn't care less. I tell what worked for me and leave it at that. I wasn't making much money at all the old route -- someone came along and said hey look at this! I looked at it, tried it... bam!

People seem to get offended when their 'plan' is called into question. Well, here's a question for the collective you: Are you meeting your goals? Do you have any? Do you make a living as a writer (the supposed goal of many here)?

Oh no? Then reassess your strategy before 20 years of aimless repetition pass you by! Persistence is important. But not if you're paddling in the wrong direction... you're just going farther out to sea!

I have always wanted to see a show like american idol, but done with writers and writing.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Shelagh said:


> When I submitted my first book to London publishers, it was very well received. Some of the rejection slips were standard replies with a comment added at the end, others were personal replies. The editors enjoyed reading the sample chapters I sent, but the book didn't fit onto their lists. Publishers spend decades building up a readership for certain types/genre of books. This is a costly process, but once that readership is established, cost savings are made by feeding the ready-made readership with more books of the same ilk. I was advised to visit book stores and libraries to check out the books by the different publishers and only submit work that fitted onto the lists of each individual publisher. This alone will not ensure publication, but it will get a new author onto the first rung of the ladder.
> 
> Many self-published authors are fixated on writing the books they want to write that no one wants to read. E. L. James interacted with her readers as she wrote and listened to their comments. When they said more of this and less of this, she complied. We all know the outcome!


The reason being... that goes against the 'conventional' advice! "Write what you love and know about! "


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2015)

> People seem to get offended when their 'plan' is called into question. Well, here's a question for the collective you: Are you meeting your goals? Do you have any? Do you make a living as a writer (the supposed goal of many here)?


Can't speak for everyone, but my personal answer to that would be yes, yes, and yes.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Joe Vasicek said:


> Can't speak for everyone, but my personal answer to that would be yes, yes, and yes.


Quick, e-five for success!


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> The reason being... that goes against the 'conventional' advice! "Write what you love and know about! "


... just write it in a way that fits onto a publisher's list ... if you are looking for a publishing contract!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Also that the writer who said they don't hang out in forums because they are too busy being "real writers" can seriously stick their **** up their **** and ******** ****** *** **. It takes a lot to insult me, but that makes me absolutely furious!


You spelt ******** wrong.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Shelagh said:


> ... just write it in a way that fits onto a publisher's list ... if you are looking for a publishing contract!


That would be compromising integrity. And writers must always follow their heart! Why else write?


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

You spelled "spelt" wrong.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm British - I'm allowed.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

MyraScott said:


> You spelled "spelt" wrong.


That's how we spell it in the old world. And you're quite right Lyndniz, there was one f too many! I got carried away....

DoG - the bolded word is IT (but y'all have to work the rest out yourselves  )


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

By most measures, I've had a successful career as a word-perv.

If you said, "The only reason Joe makes a fair wage from writing is pure luck," then I would be offended. Winning the lottery is luck, this is damn hard work.

If someone said, "Joe is more businessman than writer," again, I would be offended. You don't hold a 4.5 average across 1,500+ Amazon reviews by capitalistic acumen alone.

If it were claimed that I was a late-blooming, genius of a storyteller, I would have to disagree. None of my tomes have hit the big time so far, not one of them has laid wealth and fame at my combat boots. As a whole, yes, we sell some books and it keeps me in ammo and gun oil. But there's never been a breakout novel.

If a blogger claimed that "Joe was a marketing guru," I would have to politely protest. We struggle with marketing just like everyone else. About half the crap we try doesn't work. I reserve 10% of revenues for marketing, and in 2014 we could barely spend 2%. Nice Christmas bonus, but hardly a titan of Madison Avenue.

Like so many have said before me, it is a combination of things, and their's no cookbook that contains recipes for riches or literary glory.

Personally, I think my success is due to being such a good looking cuss. Oh, wait, never mind... that can't be it. I don't show my face.


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## Stewart Matthews (Nov 21, 2014)

Actually, I'm selling a cookbook for literary riches and glory, Joe. You guys can hit me up on Paypal for more info.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

dirtiestdevil said:


> That would be compromising integrity. And writers must always follow their heart! Why else write?


What do you care why and what other people write? Jealous, cause they actually write what they love?


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## Kenton Crowther (Jan 5, 2012)

> All these books and articles claiming to tell others how to become an author are... pitiful! Realistically, they're just there to cash in on the many people HOPING to be successful. If they had the answers, then why aren't you all successes?!


Amen to that. In the 1930s George Orwell lambasted the writing schools of his day (which worked through correspondence courses) saying if the tutors were professionals and able to make a living at writing, why were they not putting in their time on creating moneyspinners instead of instructing others? (Was it simple philanthropy?)


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

delly_xo said:


> Honestly those books make me paranoid and I get analysis paralysis like I'm doing something wrong. Creates a well of insecurity in me, so now I've stopped reading them. This is just me, btw, others might benefit greatly.


Analysis Paralysis. I love it. The term, not actually having it. I get it, too, and it sucks.


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

CoraBuhlert said:


> What do you care why and what other people write? Jealous, cause they actually write what they love?


It's the very reason I can't sleep at night...   

Or the more accurate response of: I come on here to help fellow writers make a living... WRITING! To toil away at McDonald's with a few novel projects 'on the side' or crank out some pabulum and sell it to the masses wooo!

I don't much care what you write, and if you're happy about it -- neither should you


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Kenton Crowther said:


> Amen to that. In the 1930s George Orwell lambasted the writing schools of his day (which worked through correspondence courses) saying if the tutors were professionals and able to make a living at writing, why were they not putting in their time on creating moneyspinners instead of instructing others? (Was it simple philanthropy?)


Yeah, it's the same with everything though. How to become an actor... how to run your own business! how to scam people out of lots of money!!

Though to be fair, there are some books you read and even if the author isn't a success themselves... you can still gain some motivation or perhaps a few ideas from their ramblings. How many motivational speakers are JUST motivational speakers?! What have they done outside of speaking? Well, they started a business and turned it into a living. I guess that's something. People enjoy hearing "it's possible" even if they never act on it. Whatever helps pass the time while we're here


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I quadrupled my income in a few months after changing my thinking about this game. Now I live off my writing and was able to leave my crappy marriage, move back to the west coast near my family, and basically live a happy life.  
I'm hoping to double that income again in the next few months but that will probably require putting the three year old in preschool. At this point, I'm making about $4k a month and working a few hours a day. Most of my time is dedicated to my kid. If I even worked this part time (20hrs a week), I'd make my income goals no problem. 
After that, my next goal is real estate. Thank you unconventional thinking!


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## Stewart Matthews (Nov 21, 2014)

Do you guys know of any method that gets people physically addicted to books?

I'm asking for a friend.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Orgasms and emotions help.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Half Pint said:


> Orgasms and emotions help.


Orgasms are optional.


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## 71202 (Jul 17, 2013)

D: Make books people want to buy and have realistic income expectations.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I take all my writing advice from Mark Twain and that other guy.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Delusion of Grandeur said:


> Speaking of 50 Shades of Grey (which I haven't read),


Oh, honey, haven't you heard? _No one_ has read it.


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

Been thinking about how to answer this. Writing advice is good, but there is a difference between giving ones own writing advice in the trenches of the writing field. It's wholly different to do massive quotes of some famous person.

Such famous person could easily be only saying what works for them. And I think this is the big point about writing that's often missed: your mileage may vary.

For me the applicable writing advice depends on the individual needs of the book. It's likely none on twitter has already read it, so it because just another odd advertising gimmick.

Just my opinion.

That's not to say writing advice isn't valuable! But there is a time for everything.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Kenton Crowther said:


> Amen to that. In the 1930s George Orwell lambasted the writing schools of his day (which worked through correspondence courses) saying if the tutors were professionals and able to make a living at writing, why were they not putting in their time on creating moneyspinners instead of instructing others? (Was it simple philanthropy?)


Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Shelagh said:


> Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


I believe the proper attribution is "Those who _can_ do, teach."


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

H. S. St. Ours said:


> I believe the proper attribution is "Whose who can do, teach."


Close.

Those who can't, teach.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Evenstar: Anyone ever tell you that you're beautiful when you're angry?  

I love any woman with brass. Can't help it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Shelagh said:


> Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


And those who can't teach, teach gym. 

It's pithy and all, but far from always true.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

It doesn't always follow that just because someone teaches writing that means they can't produce good books. The vast majority of writing instructors I've had were still working writers. Some taught part-time for extra money and some taught because they were good people who believe in helping others. 

As a teacher myself, the whole "those who can't, teach" thing drives me absolutely crazy. Teachers are constantly being mocked and undervalued in our society and it's completely disgusting.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

M. Tomorrow: Like.

B&H: RE: Poker analogy. Great post!

Delusions of Granola: RE: 50 Shades... It has been so beaten to death that not even George Romero's
zombies want to touch it.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Shelagh said:


> Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


Excellent. Down to dissing teachers.



Perry Constantine said:


> As a teacher myself, the whole "those who can't, teach" thing drives me absolutely crazy. *Teachers are constantly being mocked and undervalued in our society and it's completely disgusting.*


Exactly. I'm sorry, Perry. Not everyone thinks like that idiotic statement, nor do they believe it's true.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Just one question: What if you can't teach gym? Where do you go from there?

RE: Success. I listened to Cin every step of the way... Lookit me now: Top o' the 
world, ma!


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## Tony_A20 (Dec 8, 2011)

I found this thread quite interesting.

I am one of the many authors who have written a "How To" book about writing. 

Joe Vasicek wrote above, "There is a craft element as well, just as there's a craft to woodworking, or shoemaking, or any other skilled work". 

He's right! Every skill, including writing, has basic characteristics that must be learned to become proficient. I have found that explaining a topic to someone else, is the best way for me to imprint the information on my own mind, and I often write to teach myself. 

I didn't write my book to teach others how to write,  or show off, or to feel superior, and certainly not to make money. I wrote it for myself. I wrote it to organize the process, so I would understand what's needed,  what to do, and how to do it.  

Of course, I didn't "create" any of the content. I learned everything from books written by other authors--tempered by my own experience, knowledge and understanding--just as other craftsmen have done to learn and practice every skill since tools were invented. Over the twenty years I have been learning how to write, I have purchased and read  over a hundred books on the task of writing. I'm still learning, still buying books.

The first edition of "Story Craft" was published as "Beginning Creative Writing," and was given away free for several years on my website to help other new writers. It had a respectable number of downloads every month. When I decided to join Amazon, it was completely rewritten, updated, and had quite a bit of new material added.  My intent is still to help other writers and  save them some of the years I have spent learning the craft. Amazon provides a small opportunity for writers to show their appreciation.

Musicians , dancers, artists, mechanics, pilots, athletes, doctors, lawyers--everyone who has any professional skill in any area, has learned  their craft from someone else explaining what to do, and how to do it. Whether it is explained in person or in a book, every skilled person learns their craft. Why do writers think that when they are taught to write in grade three, they have learned all there is to know?

Tony


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## Peter Spenser (Jan 26, 2012)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Any writer who tells you to build a following on Twitter is a writer who knows nothing about selling books to readers.


 
Oh, yeah? Tell that to Rayne Hall. She's made a few bucks with her fiction and writer's guides, both.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

As the mother of a high-school teacher--

I think you're right. We should get rid of all the teachers. Who needs 'em? Bunch of overpaid, underworked losers. Lazing around, going to work at 9 and getting home at 3? Pfft. They certainly aren't grading papers and lesson-planning into the night and all weekend long, trying to prepare kids who don't even know anyone who's finished high school to have some shot at going to college. 

As far as the thread topic--I don't think there's really any "conventional" advice about publishing anymore (which I took to be the meaning). Writing, yes, I think there's craft. Not saying I have it, I'm saying it exists.  But publishing is changing so fast--anybody who's telling you "how to do it" is...well, deluded. There are a number of ways that CAN work, that HAVE worked--and that probably won't work nearly as well six months from now. There are different paths to follow depending on what kind of writer you are, what your goals are, what your skills are...so many things. Some people write for pleasure, some for money, some for both. Personally, I write exactly what I want, and then I do my best to package and present it in a way that gets it in front of eyeballs, and hope that some percentage of people who see it will check it out, and some percentage of those will read my other stuff. That's worked pretty well, but it's only one way. 

I'd say, in general, that you have three choices. You can adapt to the changes by (a) changing what you write (choosing to follow trends/change genres, writing short, etc.), (b) changing how you market/distribute (going wide, if you write novels and/or aren't putting out one a month, since there's less churn on other platforms than on Amazon, going hybrid, getting visibility by partnering with other authors at your level, etc.), or (c) not changing at all, if you're not that concerned with making money at this. 

If it's (a) or (b), you're probably going to have to be changing your tactics on a fairly regular basis. Personally, I do (b), because I'm in this to tell the stories I want to tell, but hey! Nothing wrong with (a) or (c), if that's your deal.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Kirkee said:


> Just one question: What if you can't teach gym? Where do you go from there?


Principal. Then depending on how venal and corrupt you are, superintendent.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Evenstar said:


> That's how we spell it in the old world. And you're quite right Lyndniz, there was one f too many! I got carried away....
> 
> DoG - the bolded word is IT (but y'all have to work the rest out yourselves  )


Don't believe her, DoG. It's "as." She spelt it wrong and forgot the second s.

(I'm Continental European and I get to choose which spelling I use to spell spelled.)


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

Caddy said:


> Giggle. I'm staying out of this one. But I do have cold beer to go with the popcorn. Anyone?


Thanks for your offer, but I may just go with a Jack and Coke. 
Once in a while I get annoyed at all the "you absolutely MUST do this" threads and books and websites and podcasts. So I back away from them, but frankly, I come to kboards not just to learn some things from fellow authors but also to decompress from the actual writing. My MC gets me kind of depressed sometimes. 
I also respect that all of us may have a different measure of success, and also may have a different path to success.


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## Kirkee (Apr 2, 2014)

Kelli W: LOL!  

Who would've guessed this thread was going to turn into a fun-fest?

But in all seriousness, I have for years, (decades) touted the importance of teachers/educators
over overrated sports figures. Who wanted to listen? No one. I quit watching TV ages ago & have no idea
what's going on in sports. None. Don't care. This is from someone who used to love boxing, wrestling, basketball, even baseball for a while there in the early 80s (when Fernando Venezuela was pitching for the Dodgers), the Olympics, et al.  No more.

My late wife was a teacher. Retired. Taught 4th graders. I not only admire anyone who does that for a living, but am in absolute awe of what teachers do. It is one tough way to earn a buck. Teachers are the true heroes, not some guy who's good at hoops. Without teachers, this shaky/shabby world would fall apart a lot quicker than it already is. Without teachers, we wouldn't stand a chance. 
On the other hand: without golf, hoops, hockey, boxing...would this crazy world stop turning? Hardly. Not only would life go on, but we'd probably be better off.

Didn't mean to take the fun tone out of the thread. Merely wished to respond to the offended teachers & let them know how much they are appreciated, and to remind them not to be offended, and/or take it literally, when they hear: Those who can't, teach. It is said in jest by people. There are plenty of us who value what you do & feel that you are not paid nearly enough.  

My wife was my hero. Teachers are amazing.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> As a teacher myself, the whole "those who can't, teach" thing drives me absolutely crazy. Teachers are constantly being mocked and undervalued in our society and it's completely disgusting.


This.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Kirkee said:


> My wife was my hero. Teachers are amazing.


Thanks.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Love this!



B&H said:


> Writing a bestseller is like playing poker.
> 
> You can study all the maths of poker, learn all the strategy and become a very skilled card player, what you can't control is the hand you're dealt.
> 
> ...


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Close.
> 
> Those who can't, teach.


I went to teacher training college where former teachers had become college lecturers whose job it was to teach us how to teach.

So when one lecturer reminded us of the "Those who can do, those who can't teach" thing, I quipped:

"And those who can't teach, become lecturers in teacher training colleges."

(Did not go down well.)

Philip


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Monique said:


> And those who can't teach, teach gym.
> 
> It's pithy and all, but far from always true.


Word:

Those who can't teach, teach teachers.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Philip Gibson said:


> I went to teacher training college where former teachers had become college lecturers whose job it was to teach us how to teach.
> 
> So when one lecturer reminded us of the "Those who can do, those who can't teach" thing, I quipped:
> 
> ...


One of those same lecturers was the one who said it to me. 

(Those who can't teach, teach teachers.)


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

A big thank you to the people who posted supportive comments about teachers. It's good to know that there are still people who treat us with respect instead of as a punchline.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'll bet all of us here have a teacher or two or ten who made a huge difference in our lives. I had a very difficult time as an adolescent (home circumstances). The number of teachers who reached a hand out still astonishes me. One of them came to my class reunion eight or nine years ago, and sat at the dinner table with me and a couple of friends from that year. Our 30th class reunion. She was still great. And she remembered all of us. 

Bet she made hardly anything.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

You're right, Rosalind. My high school art teacher and my ninth grade biology teacher. Both left big impressions on me, all positive.


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## bluwulf (Feb 1, 2014)

Half Pint said:


> I quadrupled my income in a few months after changing my thinking about this game. Now I live off my writing and was able to leave my crappy marriage, move back to the west coast near my family, and basically live a happy life.
> I'm hoping to double that income again in the next few months but that will probably require putting the three year old in preschool. At this point, I'm making about $4k a month and working a few hours a day. Most of my time is dedicated to my kid. If I even worked this part time (20hrs a week), I'd make my income goals no problem.
> After that, my next goal is real estate. Thank you unconventional thinking!


Where's the "like" button?


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## dirtiestdevil (Aug 20, 2014)

Seems to be a little strawman that keeps poking his noggin into this! 

I've got nothing against teachers. If I wanted to learn something... I'd go look for someone to teach/coach me! But most teachers don't say "Follow me and you'll be a world champ in 4 weeks!" Those kind of get-rich quick book schemes are what I'm talking about. 

And it's ok if the teacher themselves isn't a great novelist... just go ahead and point me to people who followed THEIR advice and became fantastic novelists. The greatest players rarely make the best coaches. But if the coaches team doesn't perform, then ka-powey! He gets fired.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2015)

To be fair, "those who can't, teach" is not the same thing as "those who teach, can't."

Just sayin'.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Write what you love to read, and your readers will love it as well."


If what you love to read is epic romance about trolls under bridges who fall in love with unicorns, you might find one or two other folks who love it. You likely won't make any money from it, but, hey. They love it and that's enough. Right?

Much better advice is to love what you write. People will get up in arms about "writing to the market", but if you want to make a living at writing, then this is how you improve your chances.

Writing has never, ever been a guaranteed way to make money. Never. And it never will be, despite all those Warrior Forum types who sell you something that says otherwise.

Anyone who wants to be a writer will find the books and advice that sets them on the right path: knowing how to write readable prose, the fundamentals of spelling, grammar and punctuation. They'll study and practice and learn how to tell a story, and with luck it will be a story people want to read.



> But the simple fact is given the volume of books out there each book has a random chance of truly resonating with enough readers to completely catch fire.


This is where knowing the current state of publishing is crucial. You have to know what is selling, and why. Why do readers gobble up one book, and not another. Why someone comes out of the blue with a blockbuster, while others fall into obscurity. Sometimes it's a huge push by the publisher, sometimes it's hitting the market just right, sometimes you'll never know. Often the writer has worked their rear off, written a whole lot of words, and got lucky.

If you must have a mega-hit or you won't be happy, find something else to do with your time. If you can't settle for the uncertainty of this business, then get a "real" job and write on the side. Lightening does strike, and you can increase your chances by having good craft (AKA "follow the rules of writing"), writing the kind of stories people want to read, and getting them in front of readers so they can read them.

Never stop learning, never stop striving to improve.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Ah, the English language; what a misunderstood thing it is. Example:

A woman without her man is nothing.

Add a little punctuation and we have:

A woman: without her, man is nothing.

When I wrote "those who can, do; those who can't, teach", I wasn't implying that teachers are incapable of teaching ("those who can't teach"). Quite the reverse. If someone teaches you to do something well, then put that skill to good use. If someone teaches you to do something, and you perform it badly, your lack of skill doesn't mean that you could not teach someone else to do it well. In fact, talented pupils are expected to outperform their teachers. That's the joy of teaching, nurturing the talented and sending them out into the world to perform in front of an audience.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Shelagh said:


> When I wrote "those who can, do; those who can't, teach", I wasn't implying that teachers are incapable of teaching ("those who can't teach"). Quite the reverse. If someone teaches you to do something well, then put that skill to good use. If someone teaches you to do something, and you perform it badly, your lack of skill doesn't mean that you could not teach someone else to do it well. In fact, talented pupils are expected to outperform their teachers. That's the joy of teaching, nurturing the talented and sending them out into the world to perform in front of an audience.


I understood what you meant. The implication was clear--teachers are incapable of succeeding in the subjects they teach. That's not the case in many situations. In fact, I'd argue it's not the case in most situations. Just about every writing teacher I had was a successful writer who had seen publication numerous times or had many writing credits to their name for film and television.

If someone posted on here saying, "Good writers find agents; hack writers self-publish," they would be crucified--and rightly so. Most people on this forum would find that statement to be extremely offensive. And as a writer and a teacher, I find the statement, "those who can, do; those who can't, teach" to be every bit as offensive.

I teach because I love it every bit as much as writing, not because I wasn't "good enough."


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Love this!


Me too! Fantastic analogy, B&H.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Half Pint said:


> I quadrupled my income in a few months after changing my thinking about this game. Now I live off my writing and was able to leave my crappy marriage, move back to the west coast near my family, and basically live a happy life.
> I'm hoping to double that income again in the next few months but that will probably require putting the three year old in preschool. At this point, I'm making about $4k a month and working a few hours a day. Most of my time is dedicated to my kid. If I even worked this part time (20hrs a week), I'd make my income goals no problem.
> After that, my next goal is real estate. Thank you unconventional thinking!


I have a real estate goal. I'm saving all my royalties this year until I have enough to start flipping houses. I'll always write, but I don't think it's practical to depend on Amazon's algorithms for financial stability the rest of my life.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Perry Constantine said:


> I teach because I love it every bit as much as writing, not because I wasn't "good enough."


I've had a lot of teachers with another problem. They could do it all right. They just couldn't teach. In other words, they were totally unable to impart what they knew and what they knew how to do to others. Sometimes they were just walking, talking textbooks, blaming their failure as a teacher on their students.

Then there were the very, very few who clearly loved what they were teaching, walked the talk, and with infinite patience kept explaining, always a little bit different, always looking for where exactly the disconnect between teaching and understanding occurred, until every last student got what they were talking about. And often became fascinated themselves with the subject they were being taught.

I've had two teachers of the latter kind, and at least forty of the former.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Shelagh said:


> those who can, do; those who can't, teach"


Shelagh, the problem is that teachers, and not without reason, consider this phrase to be insulting. It is taken to mean, by many, that teachers teach because they can't do anything else.

And oh, so not true, particularly in the era when I first heard it, when most elementary school teachers in the US were women and when talented women who wanted a career had few other options. Teaching was my goal for many years; that I didn't was my failure. I went on to major in Mathematics instead and work in statistical analysis and then computers.

My sister-in-law, 78 years old, became a teacher though she felt called to be a minister. And she is an exceptional woman who became a Presbyterian minister as a second career.

It feels, to the teachers I know, similar to someone saying "Those who can write, trad publish; those who can't, self-publish."

Betsy


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Shelagh, the problem is that teachers, and not without reason, consider this phrase to be insulting. It is taken to mean, by many, that teachers teach because they can't do anything else.
> 
> And oh, so not true, particularly in the era when I first heard it, when most elementary school teachers in the US were women and when talented women who wanted a career had few other options. Teaching was my goal for many years; that I didn't was my failure. I went on to major in Mathematics instead and work in statistical analysis and then computers.
> 
> ...


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

From George Bernard Shaw's _Man and Superman_, Bob: I'm so discouraged. My writing teacher told me my novel is hopeless. Jane: Don't listen to her, Bob. Remember: those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Shelagh said:


> From George Bernard Shaw's _Man and Superman_, Bob: I'm so discouraged. My writing teacher told me my novel is hopeless. Jane: Don't listen to her, Bob. Remember: those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


Exactly. You've made my point. Jane is telling Bob to disregard his teacher's advice because the teacher doesn't know what she is talking about. Jane is using it as an insult.

Betsy


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Christine Tate said:


> I'd like to add don't be afraid to find a niche market and settle in. I write in an extremely specific genre (Christian non-fiction) with an even narrower target market (women who attend Bible studies), but I have done and continue to do well in it. It generates steady, consistent sales and while I'm not a Joyce Meyers or Beth Moore (yet), I do better than many aspiring writers who are lucky to sell 100 books in a year (about the amount I consistently sell every month). In the end, it's about finding your passion, honing your skills until you're good at what you do, then roll up your sleeves and get to work writing and marketing (with special emphasis on marketing).


Christine,

I'm glad you posted this. Last night I was remarking to Husband that I didn't know of anybody who was selling medium amounts. They were either selling none, or thousands. Nothing wrong with selling thousands, of course (LOL), but it's good to know that with a solid niche, a person can make it worthwhile. I still haven't found my niche. And I know that's very important.


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Shelagh said:


> From George Bernard Shaw's _Man and Superman_, Bob: I'm so discouraged. My writing teacher told me my novel is hopeless. Jane: Don't listen to her, Bob. Remember: those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


Because...what...George Bernard Shaw had a fictional character say must now be true?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

You couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Exactly. You've made my point. Jane is telling Bob to disregard his teacher's advice because the teacher doesn't know what she is talking about. Jane is using it as an insult.
> 
> Betsy


That's one interpretation. I'm a teacher who does (or did!), and the quote doesn't eat away at me. A different interpretation might be that Jane is trying to make Bob understand that teachers are not always right. In the inner world of education, the book might be hopeless, but in the outside world, there was hope -- he should keep going and not give up.

FYI, I taught Art (grade 7-12), this is one of my drawings available on FineArt America:


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Perhaps our perspective is different because of our ages.  I asked my husband, who is even older (he's really, really, really old ) his impression of the phrase, without any background, and he said it was an insult.  So it's not just me. 

At least, hopefully, you're now aware that at least some out here take the phrase as an insult, and that's why you got the reaction you did.

Your work is beautiful.

EDIT TO ADD:  Folks, this is NOT a popcorn thread, nor will it be one, thanks.

Betsy


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

How about tracking down the teachers in your life who did improve your life, and thanking them? 

Thank you to all the teachers who visit the Writers' Cafe.  
It is a marginalized career, because of a few bad ones. 
Several friends and family members are/were teachers. They all taught because they loved it, and none of them got wealthy (or are getting wealthy)  from the experience.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Of course successful folks hang out on various types of forums and talk to other writers. This business is changing fast, and it's tough to bounce ideas off people who aren't in the industry. It's especially useful when you're pursuing different avenues and revenue streams. For example, I went wide to other (non-Amazon) platforms recently with about half my catalog, which was a huge step. I got some terrific advice and resources from some very knowledgeable people that helped me do that while still writing a book, which would otherwise have been pretty impossible, and involved a lot of messing up and swearing. 

The idea that "writers write" is pretty outmoded these days, from what I know. If you think Nora Roberts isn't thinking about what's going on in the industry and her marketing, or networking with other writers...I think you're wrong.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

katrina46 said:


> I have a real estate goal. I'm saving all my royalties this year until I have enough to start flipping houses. I'll always write, but I don't think it's practical to depend on Amazon's algorithms for financial stability the rest of my life.


My husband and I have flipped houses. He's a framing contractor by trade. Unfortunately, it's not quite as easy or lucrative as the TV shows make it sound, and they don't necessarily show you the ones they lose money on. 
Most states require you to have a contracting license if you're doing more than the home you live in, plus, you must be bonded, licensed, and insured.
There was a private bank auction yesterday of a distressed property in a subdivision I know well. I made a comment that the house was worth less than the 50K startiing bid, even though it is a 4/3/2.
The only bid that came in that day was 40K, which with the amount of work that needed to be done, was a fair price. The bank kept the property because it has a Fannie May mortgage on it, and their "rules" won't allow it to sell for less than 90K.
Unfortunately, in the condition the house is in, AND with no clear title, in that specific neighborhood, they don't have a prayer for it selling at 90K. It's been empty for almost three years now.

Many banks are left with homes that have loans for twice as much as what the current market will bear. Flipping is work too, and goes through ups and downs with the rest of the real estate market.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Close.
> 
> Those who can't, teach.


Actually, what I was trying to do (but autocorrect got in my way) was show a little gratitude to hard-working teachers everywhere. 
"Those who _can_ do, teach!"


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2015)

For those of you who take offense at the teaching aphorism, there's a certain Brigham Young quote that's relevant to the discussion. Last time I quoted it, though, I got banned, so...

For the record, I'd like to point out that both my parents are teachers, and that I've worked as a teacher as well. But honestly, this whole threadjack about the value of teachers in society is frankly getting tedious. Let's get back to the OP.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

For anyone who misunderstood my post and thought I was agreeing with Shelagh. I was not. My line is an old Woody Allen joke. I'm as appalled by her "position" as others.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Well


Monique said:


> For anyone who misunderstood my post and thought I was agreeing with Shelagh. I was not. My line is an old Woody Allen joke. I'm as appalled by her "position" as others.


I wasn't appalled by the Woody Allen quote, Monique, and I'm married to a professor of Sports Science! He and I both share the same "position" about G.B. Shaw's quote. But we share the same sense of humour, too!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Lisa Grace said:


> My husband and I have flipped houses. He's a framing contractor by trade. Unfortunately, it's not quite as easy or lucrative as the TV shows make it sound, and they don't necessarily show you the ones they lose money on.
> Most states require you to have a contracting license if you're doing more than the home you live in, plus, you must be bonded, licensed, and insured.
> There was a private bank auction yesterday of a distressed property in a subdivision I know well. I made a comment that the house was worth less than the 50K startiing bid, even though it is a 4/3/2.
> The only bid that came in that day was 40K, which with the amount of work that needed to be done, was a fair price. The bank kept the property because it has a Fannie May mortgage on it, and their "rules" won't allow it to sell for less than 90K.
> ...


I'm thinking more like landlord. Maybe start with a duplex and live in half. That's how I started the last time when I was in my twenties. Too bad I was stupid and sold everything. This time, I'll be doing it on my own.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Shelagh said:


> Well
> I wasn't appalled by the Woody Allen quote, Monique, and I'm married to a professor of Sports Science! He and I both share the same "position" about G.B. Shaw's quote. But we share the same sense of humour, too!


I was talking to other boardies. I can be displeased by what you wrote while you think what I wrote was awesome.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

dirtiestdevil said:


> If the 'conventional' writing advice and wisdom is correct... then why do so few people make a successful career or living from their writing?


Because the parts of the "conventional writing advice" that carry most educational impact aren't the parts related to "how to write", maybe? Just a theory.



dirtiestdevil said:


> All these books and articles claiming to tell others how to become an author are... pitiful!


I don't really disagree with you, as far as books teaching "how to write" go.

However, there's another, sometimes very different type of "instruction manual" which is more for people who do have some writing talent. They (usually) don't presume to teach "how to write", but focus instead more on "how to earn a living from the fact that you can write".

These are, in my view, far more valuable.



Wayne Stinnett said:


> I got lucky. I had no idea what I was doing when I wrote and published my first. Seriously, No Idea At All. I can spin a yarn pretty good, though.


And this is very much part of the point, here, I think? Your modesty aside, the reality is that people like yourself who can spin a yarn so well to start with are always far likelier to get lucky than others, aren't they? Because they started off with a fundamentally marketable skill, and "just" had to learn how to market it, rather than having to learn the skill in the first place, too (which is going to stack the odds massively against most people)?



Wayne Stinnett said:


> Chance favors the prepared mind.


Exactly so.


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> I was talking to other boardies. I can be displeased by what you wrote while you think what I wrote was awesome.


You've lost me completely. You wrote something awesome? Yesterday, I paraphrased Kenton Crowther's post with a well-known quote. I didn't express an opinion. Here's Kenton''s post:



Kenton Crowther said:


> Amen to that. In the 1930s George Orwell lambasted the writing schools of his day (which worked through correspondence courses) saying if the tutors were professionals and able to make a living at writing, why were they not putting in their time on creating moneyspinners instead of instructing others? (Was it simple philanthropy?)


Here's my reply:



Shelagh said:


> Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

To all the teachers, thank you.  To all the substitute teachers, double thank you.
Now on the subject of inspirational teachers, only two come to mind.  My seventh grade art teacher.  I was put in her class as a punishment.  She had me do one thing, looked at me and said you have no artistic talent so I can't teach you.  She sent me across the hall to help the Special Ed teacher.  Those few weeks helped in the long run.  
The other one was my sophomore history teacher.  She taught the class to the students that wanted to learn.  We actually ran out of the text book.  
Note this was the year before students had to take those stupid basic skills tests to graduate.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Now on writing a book.
I doubt I could write a book.  I don't have the patience.  But I will gladly read books.  And somedays, give my opinion on what I thought of the book.

Note I am in a good book phase right now so not near as cranky.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Shelagh said:


> You've lost me completely. You wrote something awesome? Yesterday, I paraphrased Kenton Crowther's post with a well-known quote. I didn't express an opinion. <snip>
> 
> Here's my reply: <snip - the quote>


I always write something awesome.  If you don't think posting that particular quote and your follow-up posts is expressing an opinion, I'm not sure what to tell you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

H. S. St. Ours said:


> Actually, what I was trying to do (but autocorrect got in my way) was show a little gratitude to hard-working teachers everywhere.
> "Those who _can_ do, teach!"


Something we can all agree on. 



Joe Vasicek said:


> For those of you who take offense at the teaching aphorism, there's a certain Brigham Young quote that's relevant to the discussion. Last time I quoted it, though, I got banned, so...


Well, not exactly, but feel free to PM me and we can discuss this. 



> Let's get back to the OP.


Another thing we can all agree on!

Betsy


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> I always write something awesome.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Monique said:


> I always write something awesome.


*ponders this^*


Betsy


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

bobbic said:


> Christine,
> 
> I'm glad you posted this. Last night I was remarking to Husband that I didn't know of anybody who was selling medium amounts. They were either selling none, or thousands. Nothing wrong with selling thousands, of course (LOL), but it's good to know that with a solid niche, a person can make it worthwhile. I still haven't found my niche. And I know that's very important.


I liked the niche comment too. I think people forget that writing to an underserved/ignored niche can be very rewarding.. even more so if it's something you enjoy.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> *ponders this^*
> 
> 
> Betsy


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## &#039; (May 24, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> Now on the subject of inspirational teachers, only two come to mind. My seventh grade art teacher. I was put in her class as a punishment. She had me do one thing, looked at me and said you have no artistic talent so I can't teach you.


I think it is safe to assume that G. B. Shaw was told by a teacher that his writing was hopeless. Which is what this thread is all about: breaking the conventional rules and not giving up.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> If what you love to read is epic romance about trolls under bridges who fall in love with unicorns, you might find one or two other folks who love it.


I may have to write this now. I do love it. It's been forever since we had a good troll-under-the-bridge book.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Half Pint said:


> I'm thinking more like landlord. Maybe start with a duplex and live in half. That's how I started the last time when I was in my twenties. Too bad I was stupid and sold everything. This time, I'll be doing it on my own.


That's smart. 
I love owning rental property. That's a great asset to own if you can buy them for cash or have a bunch of equity in them.


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## MeghanScott (Dec 15, 2014)

book leaf said:


> I am going to jump in here and thank dirtiest devil (and everyone else who did the erotica short challenge) for completely changing my life. I went from only making $200 a month on Amazon (after a few years of being able to write 1 book a year and live off of it...which obviously isn't working for me right now...), to 100 borrows / 50 sales a day. I only work about 10 hours a week (and honestly, some weeks I do nothing at all. I took 3 weeks off in December, and at least one in January and November). I could make a lot more money if I wanted to, but I'm using all that extra time off during the day to do things that matter to me, like work on the projects I thought I'd never have the time to write because I needed a "real job." Writing is now my day job _and _what I do for fun. I am, for the first time in my life, experiencing true freedom with my writing because I don't need the projects close to my heart to make money. I don't care if they sell well or not, or how long they take to write, because it doesn't matter. My short erotic romances make me money, and I am using that money not only to live off of but also to launch my other projects in the way I want to see them launched. I've also improved as a writer by writing so quickly, and found that they are often fun to write  I don't work harder, I work smarter. I see many others doing it and I believe that many more can too. Yes, you can write for fun _and _for money.


What is the erotica short challenge? Will there be another


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