# HTML: Prevent page break in Kindle 2



## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

Say I have a block quote that I don't want to be split across two pages when displayed on my Kindle.

What html tags can I use to prevent that splitting?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, Jonah!

Welcome to KindleBoards and congratulations on your first post!

Your question is probably best answered by one of our resident authors who self publish on the Kindle, and they mostly hang out in the Book Bazaar. 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/board,42.0.html

If they don't find you here soon, you might want to repost there!

Betsy


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Welcome, Jonah - Betsy and I just conferred about this and we're moving the post to Book Bazaar to see if some help is available for you there! - Harvey


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## SusanCassidy (Nov 9, 2008)

I don't think there is a way. The HTML supported by Mobipocket format is fairly limited, anyway. HTML was designed to be one long page, so widow-and-orphan control was not a big problem, even in regular HTML. W3C: http://www.w3.org/Printing/fmtext.html#Widow.

Mobipocket paragraph control: http://www.mobipocket.com/dev/article.asp?BaseFolder=prcgen&File=justification.htm


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## Thumper (Feb 26, 2009)

Jonah said:


> Say I have a block quote that I don't want to be split across two pages when displayed on my Kindle.
> 
> What html tags can I use to prevent that splitting?


All I can think of is forcing a page break before the blockquote.

```
<mbp:pagebreak>
```
This might force the pagebreak with only a few lines on the screen--that will depend of what size font the reader is using--and might be annoying, but it's all I can think of.


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

Hmmm... that's too bad.

The other solution I can think of, which is a bit more work, is to create a preprocessing script that would convert the blocks to gif images, and then create the html to insert the images.


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## SusanCassidy (Nov 9, 2008)

If you convert to images, people can't change the font size.


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

So, should I assume we have a definitive answer that this is not possible without using page breaks, or might there be another forum where I could find an answer?

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Jonah


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Our authors are pretty good....several of them have written books on publishing for the Kindle.


Just sayin'....

Betsy


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

Jonah - On Kindle, your layout is really controlled by the user through the font size. You only have a certain amount of screen real estate to work with, so trying to force no breaks simply won't work. The only option, already mentioned, to ensure that all the text you want to appear on a single page is by using an image...


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Jonah said:


> Hmmm... that's too bad.
> 
> The other solution I can think of, which is a bit more work, is to create a preprocessing script that would convert the blocks to gif images, and then create the html to insert the images.


Jonah,

First, _if_ I were going to go the route of inserting an image, there are far simpler and frankly more likely ways that would work than the above. Inserting an image for the block quote is a viable option, but depending on the amount of text, the text will either be too small on the 6" Kindle, or when blown up on the Kindle DX, will look very pixelated.

Besides, anything you did to force the kind of behavior you want would be counterproductive to the Kindle experience that draws people to devices like the Kindle in the first place. Your first priority should always be the convenience of the consumer, because if they have an unpleasant experience with one of your books, they won't buy another. Many people buy the Kindle specifically because of how much control they have over the appearance of the "page" as it were, and doing anything that adversely affects that is a bad idea.

Do you really think having the quote together on one page is all that important to the average Kindle reader? That's the question you have to ask yourself. I can understand if you prefer it yourself, but the question is whether the average reader will, because they are the ones spending the money. And my assumption is that the majority, if not all, will not, and I think the Kindle owners here will agree with me.


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts, greg.

Two things. One, this book is really just for me. What I am actually trying to do is get the following article on connect4 strategy onto my kindle:

http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4.html

The "block quotes" I referred to above are actually the connect 4 game pictures you see in that article, and when you see them it will be obvious why they need to be on one page. Sorry I didn't mention that before, but I was just trying to explain what I needed to do as simply as possible.

However, I am quite shocked that Kindle does not have some built in way to do this, as the concept should apply very widely. One thing that comes to mind is poetry. There will often be times when you don't want to break up a stanza, or couplet, across pages -- just one example that comes to mind.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Since one of the joys of the kindle is the ability to change the font size, having something that HAS to be displayed on one page is actually not the best idea.  And most people are used to long poems or play dialogue being broken up, so I don't think it's any big deal if it is.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I knew Greg could answer that one. I go directly to kindle from a .prc and the html stage is masked by mobi (is that a MobiMask))   Three cheers for the Gregmeister.

Ed Patterson


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

scarlet said:


> Since one of the joys of the kindle is the ability to change the font size, having something that HAS to be displayed on one page is actually not the best idea. And most people are used to long poems or play dialogue being broken up, so I don't think it's any big deal if it is.


With all due respect, I think this is wrong. You can argue that the feature should be used sparingly, if it existed, but saying that there are no uses for it is plain false. The connect4 article I linked to is surely one. There are certainly, say, some W.C. Williams poems where you would not want to break up stanzas. That there is no way to do this is a design flaw; you may not think it's a very big one, but it is one.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Well, design flaw might be a bit harsh. . . and I don't think anyone was implying that there was no use for what you're trying to do, just that it's probably not going to be widely desired.  I think the Kindle was primarily envisioned to be a device for long form reading. . . . .words, words, and more words.  Yes, you can find books that have pictures or charts. . .I've seen several and they're handled very well but, yes, they're not "text"; they're separate images.  It's just the way the technology works.


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## osnova (Oct 20, 2009)

You may insert a link anchor at the beginning of a block quote and insert a link from somewhere before that quote.  So, if you see the text is broken you press on the link and the page reflows from the beginning of the block quote.  Not ideal but if keeping some text on one page is so important it may be a solution.

P.S. The mobi/azw format (at least its implementation on the Kindle) has definitely room for improvement.  There are no functional tables, no columns.  I'd wish for better text justification algorithms (desktop publishing-like), more flexibility with how text looks on the screen.  I'd also like to have some special control tags for TTS (ignore, pauses, special TTS pronunciation IPA tags that are not displayed to the reader).


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

osnova said:


> You may insert a link anchor at the beginning of a block quote and insert a link from somewhere before that quote. So, if you see the text is broken you press on the link and the page reflows from the beginning of the block quote. Not ideal but if keeping some text on one page is so important it may be a solution.


Interesting, I think I like this idea....


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Jonah said:


> With all due respect, I think this is wrong. You can argue that the feature should be used sparingly, if it existed, but saying that there are no uses for it is plain false. The connect4 article I linked to is surely one. There are certainly, say, some W.C. Williams poems where you would not want to break up stanzas. That there is no way to do this is a design flaw; you may not think it's a very big one, but it is one.


If I may interject once more, I think calling it a "design flaw" is like saying that not needing matches to use a microwave oven is a design flaw. Matches are certainly not obsolete, and they have their uses, but they simply just don't apply to this kind of technology.

In this case, what you're trying to do simply does not apply to this kind of technology. Why? Because now Kindle books can be read on the computer, meaning the screen could be 20-30" or more in size, or on an iPhone (and I'm sure other cellphone devices soon), meaning the screen could be a couple inches or less in size. It's the feature of a reflowable page that makes such a thing viable on so many different screen sizes, and the block quote feature, while in and of itself useful, would be highly detrimental under such circumstances. On the smaller screens it won't fit unless you make the text so small it's unreadable. It might be useful to you in your specific situations, and perhaps there are reasons for such a feature in the situations you described, however, it is a concept and application that simply doesn't apply to the Kindle-like format. It may be considered a drawback of the medium as a whole, but it is no more of a design flaw than an iPhone sized screen is. It's merely not practical in this particular format, and is likely one of the things that will assure that printed media is never truly obsolete.

It's not the Kindle's fault that certain things were not written with such devices and their limitations in mind, but it does show that writers from here on out will have to keep such devices in mind when they write. Until such time that we can beam books right into a person's head, block quotes will never apply as long as the need/desire to read on smaller screens exist, and there is no "design flaw" whatsoever in what the majority of people need or want, regardless of what your own personal needs or preferences may be. It is what it is, but what it's _not_ is a flaw.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

There are some clear philosophical differences here  (you think?) but y'all have also given Jonah some ideas to work with for his project.  I knew our authors here would come up with some good ideas!

(I'm not trying to stop the ongoing discussion, which is very interesting!)  

Jonah, be sure to let us know if you're able to get this to work for you and how you finally end up doing it!

Betsy
Moderator, Book Bazaar


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## Jonah (Dec 27, 2009)

Greg Banks said:


> If I may interject once more, I think calling it a "design flaw" is like saying that not needing matches to use a microwave oven is a design flaw. Matches are certainly not obsolete, and they have their uses, but they simply just don't apply to this kind of technology.
> 
> In this case, what you're trying to do simply does not apply to this kind of technology. Why? Because now Kindle books can be read on the computer, meaning the screen could be 20-30" or more in size, or on an iPhone (and I'm sure other cellphone devices soon), meaning the screen could be a couple inches or less in size. It's the feature of a reflowable page that makes such a thing viable on so many different screen sizes, and the block quote feature, while in and of itself useful, would be highly detrimental under such circumstances. On the smaller screens it won't fit unless you make the text so small it's unreadable. It might be useful to you in your specific situations, and perhaps there are reasons for such a feature in the situations you described, however, it is a concept and application that simply doesn't apply to the Kindle-like format. It may be considered a drawback of the medium as a whole, but it is no more of a design flaw than an iPhone sized screen is. It's merely not practical in this particular format, and is likely one of the things that will assure that printed media is never truly obsolete.
> 
> It's not the Kindle's fault that certain things were not written with such devices and their limitations in mind, but it does show that writers from here on out will have to keep such devices in mind when they write. Until such time that we can beam books right into a person's head, block quotes will never apply as long as the need/desire to read on smaller screens exist, and there is no "design flaw" whatsoever in what the majority of people need or want, regardless of what your own personal needs or preferences may be. It is what it is, but what it's _not_ is a flaw.


Greg,

You have clearly thought about this a lot, so I do respect your input, but I still don't buy this argument. It is a flaw. I own a kindle, I want to do a basic kind of formatting on it, and I cannot. Let's say this block quote feature that I want exists. Well, if you want to write a book that works on any size screen, including an iPhone, then don't use it. But people like me who want to use it on a kindle (or any other device with a large enough screen) can. The flaw is not in what most people want. The flaw is not providing a basic piece of functionality for those who do want it. Its existence would not hurt anyone, but it would help some.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm not trying to stop the ongoing discussion, which is very interesting!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Is the horse dead yet?

Betsy


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Neigh.  

Mr. Ed
(Couldn't resist, Wilbur)


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

Jonah said:


> Greg,
> 
> You have clearly thought about this a lot, so I do respect your input, but I still don't buy this argument. It is a flaw. I own a kindle, I want to do a basic kind of formatting on it, and I cannot. Let's say this block quote feature that I want exists. Well, if you want to write a book that works on any size screen, including an iPhone, then don't use it. But people like me who want to use it on a kindle (or any other device with a large enough screen) can. The flaw is not in what most people want. The flaw is not providing a basic piece of functionality for those who do want it. Its existence would not hurt anyone, but it would help some.


Actually you make a great point, but I would still argue the one point. It's not a flaw if the percentage of people who actually find the feature as important as you do is infinitesimally small, in a relative sense of the word. For example, not including folders in the Kindle design is indeed a flaw because it's not only painfully obvious how useful it would be, but most everyone who owns a Kindle wants it (although I've learned to get along without it just fine myself). As for what you are requesting, it never even occurred to me that that wasn't possible until you raised the question. I don't consider something the majority of people don't care about a flaw. Omission I'd accept, though I think it's also clear why it was omitted. But flaw I just disagree with.

But you say toMAYto, I say toMAHto, and all that.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Actually, Greg, the Cherokee say  Ta-ma-tli.  

Ed Patterson


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks, I'm declaring the horse dead. 









Let's move on; Jonah, let us know if one of these ideas works for you.

Betsy


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Actually, Greg, the Cherokee say Ta-ma-tli.
> 
> Ed Patterson


Hey, isn't that plural?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Sorry, but the Cherokee language (Tsa-la-gi) doesn;t have plurals.   It would be ta-li ta-ma-tli (2 tomato), tso-i ta-ma-tli (three tomato). etc.

Ed Patterson


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)




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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I wanna see a Betsy hat.   Something with tomtoes.

Ed Patterson


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I wanna see a Betsy hat.  Something with tomtoes.
> 
> Ed Patterson


I couldn't find a good tomato hat (where's Gertie??), but I did find this...


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