# Sex Scenes?



## Guest (Dec 3, 2011)

I picked up what I thought was a pure were-wolf novel, and it slowly turned into an erotica. (I double checked, but it wasn't labeled). While this isn't my favorite genre, I must admire the writer's sex scenes. They're really strong even if they make me blush from time to time. I'm wondering how everyone else feels about sex in their books? A fade to black works in pretty much all cases, so how far do you like your writers to go?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Sometimes fade to black is fine. Then again, sometimes not. There's normally never sex scenes in the Dresden Files, for example, but there is one rather intense one. It was a necessary scene, for not just that book but the entire series.

Also, James Marsters got to narrate that scene. *moans*


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## Todd Young (May 2, 2011)

I really think it depends on the genre. I like reading suspense novels, and I really don't want them to have sex scenes in them, but then, in my own books, I certainly do have sex scenes because that's the genre I'm writing in.


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## Harry Shannon (Jul 30, 2010)

Hard to write and often boring to read. Nothing feels quite as bad as reading a badly written, forced sexual encounter.


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## Grace Elliot (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm fine with sex scenes as long as they are well written and there for a purpose to move the plot along, ie not tacked on to provide gratuitous smut.


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## jabeard (Apr 22, 2011)

Well, I'm never offended by sex scenes or anything, but I often find them unnecessary. I look at sex scenes like I do anything scene in writing: it should be working for the book on multiple levels. Gratuitous sex is just like pointless conversations masquerading as dialog: typically annoying and boring.

Well-crafted sex scenes integrated well with the plot and characters, on he other hand, can accomplish all sorts of useful character, plot, and thematic things.

The relative importance or necessity will vary by the nature of the book, genre, et cetera.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

I've no objection to sex scenes per se -- face it, I've written a few myself -- but they can be boring. For instance, I'm currently reading _Sharky's Machine_ by William Diehl (the one that got turned into a good Burt Reynolds movie). It's well written and an excellent thriller, but it was written in the seventies and the sex scenes drag on interminably. I've started skipping over them, which is the best form of censorship there is.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

I read mostly fantasy and mystery, and those genres rarely include true sex scenes. I do specifically remember a scene from Diana Gabaldon's Outlander that was fairly well done and seemed a necessary part of the story. There was a little too much romantic angst involved for me, but it did fit the story.

I imagine I will write a sex scene myself one day, but you can bet I will have my wife (an avid romance reader) read it over carefully to make sure I don't "do it wrong."


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Grace Elliot said:


> I'm fine with sex scenes as long as they are well written and there for a purpose to move the plot along, ie not tacked on to provide gratuitous smut.


This. I hate anything gratuitous in a book, whether it be violence, sex, swearing, or reams of cutesy-poo dialogue. From the right keyboard, sex scenes can be a great way to advance both plot and characterization. Or like any other plot element, they can be over-used or poorly written, which is a huge turn-off.


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## NS (Jul 8, 2011)

Somehow the books I pick up usually don't have sex scenes. Or barely. I read thrillers mostly. They can have sex as a subject but no "action". I'm fine with it. In my books I usually stop at kissing. In one of my books "The voice of waterfalls", the sex scenes goes really bad.  Well, it's a thriller after all.


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## Chris Strange (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't have a problem with sex scenes as long as they serve the story. Maybe I've just been lucky, but most books I read don't have too much unnecessary sex. Fade to black can work a lot of the time, but a well-written sex scene can reveal much about the characters at their most vulnerable.


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## GregSisco (Oct 23, 2011)

I just finished a vampire horror novel where I thought it made sense to have some very graphic descriptions of sexual content, and I'm about to release a crime thriller set around a strip club in a seedy town, so as a writer I have to defend it.

As a reader, I think it just depends on the book. While it's true it will typically do the trick to "fade to black" or to just give a few sentences stating the characters had sex, you could write almost any scene that way. "They met for coffee and decided they had to kill their brother." "The car spun out of control and he crashed and died." It becomes a matter of whether a given moment in the story is worth describing in great detail in order to capture the right atmosphere for the story. Some stories, even non-erotica stories, benefit from a steamy or sexy atmosphere. Others don't. I like any scene as long as it doesn't feel out of place, or censored because of the writer's embarrassment.


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## Kayden Lee (Sep 9, 2011)

I generally read (and write) suspense, and I don't mind sex scenes in the books, as long as they pertain to the story. I don't want a sex scene thrown in there if it isn't enhancing the story line, but if it is, I don't have a problem with it.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Looking at it from a film director's point of view, Martin Scorcese has gone on record as saying that he generally avoid sex scenes because they just get in the way of the plot. He has a point, but books are rather different than movies ... sex scenes can work when they tell you something about the characters, or they can create atmosphere and tension, giving the story edginess and depth.


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm not keen on sex scenes in the novels I read, which is mostly thrillers, mystery and suspense. I'm fine with the author hinting at it and leaving much to the imagination, but anything too deep and I find it usually slows the plot.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I'd rather read 20 explicit sex scenes than one brutal nasty murder. 

I am not a fan of the fade to black scenes. I kind of detest them. For me its cheating me out of the emotional connections of the characters I come to care about. Sex is part of human nature to its core. 

If sex scenes are boring than its the fault , or lack of skill of the author, not of the sex in itself. I don't expect all authors to have that skill, just like not all have the skill to write fight scenes etc. 

But since I love the Romance genre and all its gazillion sub genres, I usually like a complete picture of the characters. Fading out shuts me out as a reader.

Very very few authors can pull off the closed door in Romance. Georgette Heyer is one of those. But they don't make them like that anymore  .

Well written by a skillful author, sex scenes create a full picture, let me the reader in to the bare and stripped down emotions of the characters. 

So yeah, bring it on.


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## GerrieFerrisFinger (Jun 1, 2011)

Todd Young said:


> I really think it depends on the genre. I like reading suspense novels, and I really don't want them to have sex scenes in them, but then, in my own books, I certainly do have sex scenes because that's the genre I'm writing in.


I think mystery/suspense readers can take or leave sex scenes, but romantic/suspense calls for some - well - romance. Readers of romance novels always expect some sex scenes. I think writers should blurb the "hotness" of the scenes.


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## sal (Aug 4, 2009)

tkkenyon said:


> Hear, hear.
> 
> Not only that, but sex (especially for women, the cliche goes) is an intensely emo experience. Something important to the story is going to (ahem) pop up during such an emo encounter.
> 
> ...


Well obviously everyone here is talking about *non*-erotica.

I think it's much more common for a reader to be surprised at the sexual content
of non-erotica books. I see it mostly in romance, which can range from kissing-only
to hardcore (and often it doesn't say which kind it is in the description).

(Note: I understand why romance writers do that: (IMO) A large part of romance is the 'Will they or won't they?' question
and if you mention explicit sex in the description that is a bit of a plot spoiler)

Erotica writers are much better at making it clear what heat level can be expected (I think).

Sex and plot are not mutually exclusive things. As Atunah says there is a strong emotional
component to sex.

Sal


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## R J Askew (Dec 4, 2011)

The Duke of Wellington, who never lost a battle, was a great believer in the power of reserved fire, hiding his guns, teasing the enemy...

So, too, with overt sex writing. Full on horny-porny rumpy-pumpy stuff is too obvious, too blatant, too too ... It betrays a lack of intelligence and as such rapidly becomes, erm, dull.

We, at the least the more demanding among us, need more, which in this context is clearly often less. The art of the promise, the hint, the tease ... and yes, denial. It is often the quest for that which we can't have which drives us wild? 

There is no shortage of graphic sexuality to be had if that is what we want. But writing of a certain masterly quality about issues which are at the core of our lives, esp sex is less common. Is that sex is often written about in isolation from the attendant emotions? i wonder if this is at the heart of many of our problems, viewing sex in isolation from other aspects of being?


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## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

I don't mind sex scenes if they're relevant to the story, but I find it annoying it if it's gratuitous.


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## MicheleShriver (May 14, 2011)

Chris Strange said:


> I don't have a problem with sex scenes as long as they serve the story. Maybe I've just been lucky, but most books I read don't have too much unnecessary sex. Fade to black can work a lot of the time, but a well-written sex scene can reveal much about the characters at their most vulnerable.


I would agree with this. Sometimes they really can aid in character development or plot development. It's the gratuitous sex I don't like, and have been known to skip over, too.

I just wrote a love scene in my current WIP that's fairly explicit, and I did so because I think it's important to the characters and to the plot at the time. Whether it makes it into the final draft remains to be seen.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

R J Askew said:


> The Duke of Wellington, who never lost a battle, was a great believer in the power of reserved fire, hiding his guns, teasing the enemy...


Except when he was fooling around with everyone's wife, of course.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

For the most part I do not mind sex in the books I read.  But, I really dislike pc sex scenes.  If the author goes there, then go there.  No honeyed cores or throbbing manhoods or heaving bossoms.  I'm an adult, I can take the use of proper names for body parts.


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## Grace Elliot (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm a romance writer and would rate my work as 'sensuous' - so I would find it intriguing to turn the question around.
If you are a romance reader - would you feel cheated to read a romance that didnt have a sex scene in it?
I'd be interested in your responses. 
G x


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## LilianaHart (Jun 20, 2011)

Grace Elliot said:


> I'm a romance writer and would rate my work as 'sensuous' - so I would find it intriguing to turn the question around.
> If you are a romance reader - would you feel cheated to read a romance that didnt have a sex scene in it?
> I'd be interested in your responses.
> G x


Yes! I do feel cheated if the hero/heroine I've invested in don't get to that stage of their relationship in the book. And I really don't like the closed door scenes. It makes me want to throw the book against the wall  I want to know about it. Every stinking detail. Sex is a part of all relationships, so I should get that same fulfillment from the characters I'm reading about.

Bring on the sex 

Liliana


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

R J Askew said:


> There is no shortage of graphic sexuality to be had if that is what we want. But writing of a certain masterly quality about issues which are at the core of our lives, esp sex is less common. Is that sex is often written about in isolation from the attendant emotions? i wonder if this is at the heart of many of our problems, viewing sex in isolation from other aspects of being?


I would agree with this--a description of sex without the "attendant emotions" does nothing for a story. A good writer can take any aspect of human life and make it relevant to the plot and characters--one of the best written sex scenes I've ever read was not in a romance novel. It was in _Rosemary's Baby_, and Ira Levin used the sex to convey the sheer horror and desecration of Rosemary's situation. As for viewing sex in isolation from other aspects of being, I agree that it is at the heart of many of our problems. Descartes was a brilliant man, but his philosophy has propagated this notion of the mind-body split in western culture to the point that it's ridiculous.


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## Darlene Jones (Nov 1, 2011)

Generally, I prefer the "fade to black" approach to sex scenes. I like to let my own imagination fill in the blanks.


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

Darlene Jones said:


> Generally, I prefer the "fade to black" approach to sex scenes. I like to let my own imagination fill in the blanks.


I'm with Darlene on this one.

Exclusing erotica and (some) romance, I find that what authors defend as 'necessary to the story', I often read as 'obligatory sex scene'. (Like it's a requirement that every book has to have a sex scene in it or something.)

Seriously, character's emotions/feelings/vulnerabilities/whatever can usually be shown in many ways. I think many authors default to showing it through sex.

If someone asked me to describe the most erotic scene I've ever read, it would be where one character simply gently touched the other one on the back of the hand and they exchanged looks. And then it faded to black...

I knew how much that simple gesture meant to both characters and I knew what was going to happen. That's all that was needed. Yes, the author could have continued on and said exactly what happened but I'm glad she didn't. Her description probably would have destroyed the mental picture I created.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

R J Askew said:


> The Duke of Wellington, who never lost a battle, was a great believer in the power of reserved fire, hiding his guns, teasing the enemy...
> 
> So, too, with overt sex writing. Full on horny-porny rumpy-pumpy stuff is too obvious, too blatant, too too ... It betrays a lack of intelligence and as such rapidly becomes, erm, dull.
> 
> ...


Oh boy, where to start. At the point when the words lack of intelligence are brought in and the insinuations that those of us that do read sex scenes are somehow not as demanding, the discussion jumps to a level of snootiness. 
It really is nothing more than a preference, a personal one. One is not more intelligent or demanding if one wants fade to black. I am very picky and demanding in what I read.

Maybe I just look at sex scenes like any other scene. Lets take a fighting scene in a epic fantasy. If one says, oh I don't need the sex described, I have my own imagination, does that apply to fighting scenes? So its, he grabbed his sword, killed the enemy and walked back home. The end. No further descriptions are necessary since we all have imagination right?

Same goes for a murder scene in a thriller/horror/etc novel. He killed her. That would be all there is for a fade to black there.

Which brings me back to something I think has been talked about before. For some reason its only sex scenes that bring out threads like this. I don't ever see any for other scenes in books, murders, epic fights, car chases etc.

I ponder that sometimes.


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## Judy Powell (Sep 25, 2011)

If the novel is mystery, sci-fi or suspense, I have no problem if there are no sex scenes.

For sweet romance, a high level of sexual tension and maybe some light petting is good enough.  For sensual romance and erotica I do expect more detailed sex scenes.

For me, though, the key to enjoyment is knowing what to expect going in (e.g. is the book listed in the correct genre) and having a high level of sexual tension throughout the novel (whether the book is sweet or steamy romance).


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## martaszemik (Dec 4, 2011)

Glad the subject is brought up, because I'm in the midst of finishing a novella that's a prequel to my novel and I'm having a difficult time keeping it PG rated - the way the novel is. I think the blacking out into a scene is ok and would be PG rated, but anything descriptive in the scene should most likely be marked with 'adult content'. Right? Where do you draw the line, and do you think it's all right to have a novella that follows a book with a different rating?  ??


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## brianrowe (Mar 10, 2011)

I wrote a couple of sex scenes in my first novel, but I'm not a big fan of them. For me they can be awkward when not written well, and when they're not merited.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Sometimes fade to black is fine. Then again, sometimes not. There's normally never sex scenes in the Dresden Files, for example, but there is one rather intense one. It was a necessary scene, for not just that book but the entire series.
> 
> Also, James Marsters got to narrate that scene. *moans*


LOL. Awesome point.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Fantasm08 said:


> LOL. Awesome point.


Just keepin' it real


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## normcowie (Jun 21, 2011)

Generally I'm not thrilled when I run into sex scenes, but if they don't last too long or get too graphic, I'm okay with them. But I remember one book -  maybe it's the werewolf book that prompted this post -  where the sex went on for six pages. I peeked ahead and found it would go on for another six pages, so I stopped reading.

In case anyone is interested in the book as a sex-primer, I'm sorry, but the name of the book has disappeared into the ether I call my memory.


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## Jan Strnad (May 27, 2010)

Everything that leads up to the sex scene is all that interests me. Knowing that a couple had sex is enough for me...I don't need all of the description since, by now, I know how it goes. If there's something special about it that has to do with the story, fine. Otherwise, sex scenes just bore me, like watching someone else play a video game.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I don't think there is one answer for everybody in regard to sex scenes and so much really depends on the genre and story. Some writers just don't/can't write them very well. There are many bestsellers that just leave the intimation that there was a sex scene...fade to black or jump to morning. 

I don't like them when they are throw-ins to spice up a story or add some titillation. If the scene does add significantly to the story I have no problem reading it, but I find most writers I read serve up a pretty standard weak sex scene and I tend to skim over it, bored to tears. 

If I'm reading a mystery or a thriller I am more interested in the mystery or thrills than an ad hoc sex scene thrown in.


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## Adam Pepper (May 28, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> Some writers just don't/can't write them very well.


I think most cases this is the problem. It's not that the scene is gratuitous. It's that the execution is off.


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## James Conway (Jul 7, 2011)

I think portraying sex in novels really depends on whether it serves to further the story. But then there comes the part about reading it. There is nothing as unsexy as reading about the physicalities and mechanics of the sex act if it is portrayed in a laudry list style. As with real sex, there must be something alluring about the style of the prose, not too much should be revealed and not too soon. There should be some rhythm and flow to the language that mimicks the rhythm and flow of the lovers. 

When writing sex scenes I also think it is best to leave them short and sweet.


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## balaspa (Dec 27, 2009)

It all depends on the story.  I would have been pretty shocked if I thought it was not erotica and found it was.  Stephen King sometimes gets graphic, but often his scenes are pretty tame.  When I write I normally do a kind of fade to black, but in Gone, I didn't.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I've noticed that "literary" novels by men will often have sex in them.  And it is the least sexy sex ever.

I wouldn't want books to have ratings, like movies, but a little warning about the presence of porkswording would be appreciated.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

martaszemik said:


> Glad the subject is brought up, because I'm in the midst of finishing a novella that's a prequel to my novel and I'm having a difficult time keeping it PG rated - the way the novel is. I think the blacking out into a scene is ok and would be PG rated, but anything descriptive in the scene should most likely be marked with 'adult content'. Right? Where do you draw the line, and do you think it's all right to have a novella that follows a book with a different rating? ??


Unless your book is YA, I don't think it's a problem. There are series where some books have sex and others don't, as evidenced by Krista's comment about _The Dresden Files_. I would put a warning in the blurb, though.

In my reading, I don't require sex scenes, but I don't mind them either, as long as they are well written and add to the story. What annoys me are interchangeable sex scenes which seem to be lifted directly from a "Writing sex scenes 101" book with only the names changed. There's nothing individual or interesting about those scenes, they're not even offputting or hilarious like some really badly written sex scenes can be. Those scenes are just boring.

As a writer, I shied away from writing sex scenes for many years, until I chanced to sell a story to a magazine devoted to spicy pulp adventure fiction. They loved my story and asked for more, however, they also asked me to up the sexual content. So I had to learn how to write sex scenes and get more comfortable writing them. I eventually stopped writing for that magazine (but the stories are now making me money in e-book form), but learning to write sex scenes also helped my other fiction.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I will say this: sex is more common in everyday life than murder. Yet, we seem to want warnings for sex, but not for the murder.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Except when he was fooling around with everyone's wife, of course.


Judging from the mistress who coined the expression "cold fish" in describing the prowess of the so-called "Iron Duke", I think Wellington may have believed _a little too strongly_ in the "power of reserved fire" and "hiding his guns" ...


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Then again, if I recall correctly, the woman who coined that term had just made an unsuccessful attempt to blackmail him, so she may not be the most reliable of sources. But let's look at what brought Wellington into this in the first place:



R J Askew said:


> The Duke of Wellington, who never lost a battle, was a great believer in the power of reserved fire, hiding his guns, teasing the enemy...
> 
> So, too, with overt sex writing. Full on horny-porny rumpy-pumpy stuff is too obvious, too blatant, too too ... It betrays a lack of intelligence and as such rapidly becomes, erm, dull.


I don't think you're giving Wellington enough credit here. Wellington was a great believer in caution at Waterloo, when he was directly facing NAPOLEON. In my view, this doesn't prove Wellington's inherently cautious nature, but rather his overall competence. No competent commander would have chosen to be anything _but_ cautious against Napoleon. If Wellington had thrown caution to the wind that day, it might have been the end of him.

When facing enemy commanders who were less legendary than Napoleon, Wellington could be quite daring. I submit that his storming of Badajoz and Ciuded Rodrigo were bold, lightning-quick masterstrokes that --- if one was looking for a parallel in "hot" literature --- would be chock full of "horny-porny rumpy-pumpy" !

I further submit that if Wellington had been a writer of romance novels, he would have considered sex scenes as just one of many tactics at his disposal; to be deployed when appropriate, and avoided when inappropriate. In deciding whether it was "appropriate", "Wellington the romance author" would have considered genre, target audience, his marketing budget, and similar factors, just as "Wellington the general" considered intelligence reports, weather, logistics and terrain.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

There's a time and a reason and a season to read good sex scenes. Then there are days I just want a good laugh, and the linked article below definitely accomplished that . . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/21/books-sex-scenes_n_974490.html

I just realized this is my 666th post--rather worrisome, considering this is the same thread I mentioned _Rosemary's Baby _ on . . .


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

I love author Barbara Kingsolver's discussion of writing sex scenes:

http://writingtonight.blogspot.com/2011/05/check-out-writers-on-writing-barbara.html


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

Atunah said:


> Maybe I just look at sex scenes like any other scene. Lets take a fighting scene in a epic fantasy. If one says, oh I don't need the sex described, I have my own imagination, does that apply to fighting scenes? So its, he grabbed his sword, killed the enemy and walked back home. The end. No further descriptions are necessary since we all have imagination right?


Good point, well-expressed. What I was trying to get at with the Descartes mumbo-jumbo but didn't quite succeed.


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## katnipp (Dec 6, 2011)

I LOVE sex scenes!    Sex just makes everything better!!


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## George Hamilton (Dec 14, 2010)

I agree with much of the above, sex scenes need to be there for a reason and not just gratuitous.

_sorry, no self-promotion in the book corner.  _


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Question: I thought the book corner wasn't for self-promote, yet the majority of posts in this thread all contain individual references to their books. Isn't that self-promotion, too?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Question: I thought the book corner wasn't for self-promote, yet the majority of posts in this thread all contain individual references to their books. Isn't that self-promotion, too?


True. If you notice a post that seems to be self promotion (in any thread outside the Bazaar), please use the report button and we'll check it out. We generally don't prohibit mentioning that one has written a book -- unless it's pretty blatant and obnoxious  -- but generally will edit or remove posts where the book titles are named or linked to.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

purplepen79 said:


> There's a time and a reason and a season to read good sex scenes. Then there are days I just want a good laugh, and the linked article below definitely accomplished that . . .
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/21/books-sex-scenes_n_974490.html


She's even listed the "fist of femininity" scene from _Demon Rumm_ by Sandra Brown, which has to count as one of the most unintentionally hilarious sex scenes I ever read (the book is pretty awful in general). When reading that scene, I thought, "Dude, stop bothering the poor woman and use the fist of masculinity instead."


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> True. If you notice a post that seems to be self promotion (in any thread outside the Bazaar), please use the report button and we'll check it out. We generally don't prohibit mentioning that one has written a book -- unless it's pretty blatant and obnoxious  -- but generally will edit or remove posts where the book titles are named or linked to.


Ann, thanks. One more question (since you're here) --

It's nay to "Hey Ann! You're looking for military SF set in Iceland? You should buy book, The Military Invade Iceland, 20000AD." And it's yay to "I totally had that problem when I wrote The Military Invade Iceland, 20000AB."

So, it isn't so much the mention of the book, but rather the suggestion of purchasing it when someone is asking for recommendations?

ETA: I'm not asking out of nitpickiness, but because I actually don't understand the rule. I *personally* have no interest in talking about my stuff in this forum (I want to find out what to read next!).


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

CoraBuhlert said:


> She's even listed the* "fist of femininity" *scene from _Demon Rumm_ by Sandra Brown, which has to count as one of the most unintentionally hilarious sex scenes I ever read (the book is pretty awful in general). When reading that scene, I thought, "Dude, stop bothering the poor woman and use the fist of masculinity instead."


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Ann, thanks. One more question (since you're here) --
> 
> It's nay to "Hey Ann! You're looking for military SF set in Iceland? You should buy book, The Military Invade Iceland, 20000AD." And it's yay to "I totally had that problem when I wrote The Military Invade Iceland, 20000AB."
> 
> ...


I understand. . .and I think it's a good question. The rules have developed as the board has grown and, to some extent it's a case of "we know it when we see it".

For instance, in the examples you cite, I'd say both of those would be edited. . .they include the book's title. . . .and if you go on for more than just a couple of lines, even without mentioning a book title, we'd probably edit that as well. We try not to get all draconian about it. . .but when we start receiving complaints from members we'll crack down a little harder for a while -- just to get the message across. . . .

Sorry for the tangent, folks -- back to your regularly scheduled topic.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Also, bear in mind that though it looks like we're always here and we read every thread, we do have lives outside KB and do rely on the sharp eyes of our members and the report feature.  Please, if you see something you're not sure of, use the report.  We don't put people in the stocks necessarily, but we will take a look at it.

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks both of you. I didn't know who to ask, so thought I'd just stick it in here and ask


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

CoraBuhlert said:


> She's even listed the "fist of femininity" scene from _Demon Rumm_ by Sandra Brown, which has to count as one of the most unintentionally hilarious sex scenes I ever read (the book is pretty awful in general). When reading that scene, I thought, "Dude, stop bothering the poor woman and use the fist of masculinity instead."


Yeah, when I read the article and saw that one, my coffee mug fell out of my hand and fried my keyboard.

The only books I've read on the list are Charlaine Harris's books, which I enjoyed--I like that the author of the article points out that some of the humor in the scenes quoted was intentional. Anyway, it's quite a collection. It's gone on my wall of infamy.


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## George Hamilton (Dec 14, 2010)

martaszemik said:


> Where do you draw the line, and do you think it's all right to have a novella that follows a book with a different rating? ??


Not if you expect to attract the same readership. It's a problem I'm having with some future books, which although not a series in the strict sense, do refer to each other thematically. Whilst I don't foresee any strong sex scenes, two of the books feel like YA to Adult, and the other feels more for the Adult market - but I've got a couple of years to figure it out.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm definitely a PG-13 kind of gal.  I love sexual tension, but the sex itself not so much.  I can stand the occasional scene if it's relevant to the story; however, I prefer to have the lights dimmed.

I read "The Soulless" over the summer (urban fantasy/steampunk), and thought the sex scene was hilarious because it was couched in oh-so-proper Victorian euphemisms.  It was probably one of my favorite sex scenes in a book.


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## chipotle (Jan 1, 2010)

I am still waiting for a discussion of violence in books. 

I'm a romance reader and I've read a lot of great sex scenes and a lot of truly awful ones. I'd recommend anything by Lisa Kleypas for a demonstration of the good ones. I once read a sex scene in a historical romance that resulted in me saying "Ew!" and jumping up in disgust. LOL It wasn't anything unusual going on but it was the way it was described that creeped me out.

As far as fade to black, it did kind of bug me in one of the first Kristan Higgins books I read. But now that I know not to expect sex scenes in her books, it doesn't bug me anymore and she is one of my favorite authors.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

> It wasn't anything unusual going on but it was the way it was described that creeped me out.


I'm a firm believer in the advice of "sell the sizzle, not the steak". It's not the sex that's hot, it's the way the sex makes the reader feel that's important.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2011)

George Hamilton said:


> Not if you expect to attract the same readership. It's a problem I'm having with some future books, which although not a series in the strict sense, do refer to each other thematically. Whilst I don't foresee any strong sex scenes, two of the books feel like YA to Adult, and the other feels more for the Adult market - but I've got a couple of years to figure it out.


That's a very good point.


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## KindleChickie (Oct 24, 2009)

chipotle said:


> I am still waiting for a discussion of violence in books.


Read some of the horror threads. There is constant debate over blood, gore, and slasher-ness(!). I have read several, but if horror is not your genre you probably haven't seen the discussions. Some people want more suspense and chill, others want to be grossed out with gory details.

Me personally, I like both. Just don't involve kids cause I can't take it.


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## Borislava Borissova (Sep 9, 2011)

I am always concerned that I might cross the line between a love scene and an erotic scene. Where do we draw the line? I have never been inclined to describe intimacy in an erotic view so for me is important to consider whether it is necessary for the plot or it would be just gratituitous sex. Actually where is the difference between a love scene and an erotic scene if we want to tell more, to tell about love on physical level? In my opinion if the scenes are highly necessary it is impossible to depict it in a pure erotic way at all. So when I write I try to point out not only the passion but the psychological side in the minds and souls of my heroes during the moment of intimacy.


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## sophia76 (Nov 21, 2011)

JennDu said:


> I picked up what I thought was a pure were-wolf novel, and it slowly turned into an erotica. (I double checked, but it wasn't labeled). While this isn't my favorite genre, I must admire the writer's sex scenes. They're really strong even if they make me blush from time to time. I'm wondering how everyone else feels about sex in their books? A fade to black works in pretty much all cases, so how far do you like your writers to go?


The Author should label sex scenes.

_<<Sorry, no mention of books you yourself have written in the Book Corner. Posts will be edited or removed, thanks. --Betsy/KB Moderator>>_


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## emmameade83 (Nov 14, 2011)

I have no problem with sex scenes as long as they're not pornographic.  Sex scenes should be sensual and sexy and fit the characters and plot.
Breaking Dawn could have done with a decent sex scene after the neverending celibacy that reigned in the first 3 books. The fade to balck scene was a big disappointment


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## tahliaN (Nov 6, 2011)

I think I'm summarising a lot of comments here when I say that if it needs to be there to move the plot along or to make a relationship realistic then a sex scene should be there, but it should also be appropriate to the genre. If it's romance, you're going to be more explicit than if it's a thriller or YA and yes, a romance reader would be very pissed off it there were no sex scenes in an adult romance, but it should still be there for a reason other than just to fill the quota for sex.

Personally, I feel less is more unless you're wanting erotica which has a different premise - it's designed to titilate - but ultimately as with every book, it's about how well it's written. Save us from throbbing members.


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## thwaters (Dec 12, 2011)

I tend to read books that typically don't have any sex scenes. If sex is valid enough to add atmosphere to a particular book, I think sexual tension is a far more powerful tool rather than the blatant sex act itself. I agree with most here, the sex scenes can be so zzzzzzzz and I usually skip over them when encountered because I find them distracting. As another author stated... sex is everywhere in our culture, you can get it whenever and where ever you want. Given that, a writer should seriously question whether it's appropriate for their storytelling. Does sexual tension add an element that can't be achieved by any other means? You bet. But the author needs to be masterful at writing it, which is never easy to achieve.

_sorry, self promotion is not allowed in the Book Corner_


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## WriterCTaylor (Jul 11, 2011)

I recently read a book that was a series of zombie short stories. One of them contained a violent sex scene that was so unnecessary that it spolied the story for me. It described in too greater detail the rape of a woman who went into a house. I understand that in a post apocolyptic world there would be this type of violence, but it could have been written with a bit more style than the graphic way it was.


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## Nicki Leigh (Aug 25, 2011)

Usually fade to black is more than enough for me. So long as the author heats up to that very moment, then I'm happy. I don't need all the details. Let me figure some of it out on my own. Still, the blushing is always nice, even if it is embarrassing if you're somewhere public.


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## Meb Bryant (Jun 27, 2011)

I didn't plan to write sex into my story, but while setting the scene for a hook, IT just happened. 

Regarding blood and gore, no thank you. Queasy stomach. I try to be clever enough to whack somebody without all the goo.

Score: Sex 1  Gore 0


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Depends on the context. I'm rarely, if ever, offended by them.

But they need to be in context for me....if they distract from the story, I tend to skim right over them. (Obviously I dont read many romances, lol). I read more story-driven things so I tend to like to stick to the plot and details.  "Let's keep it movin' folks!"


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## JennieCoughlin (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm another one who has different opinions depending on genre. In a romance, I would feel cheated if everything was fade to black. In a cozy mystery, I would be surprised to see a scene that wasn't a fade to black. And in literary, it depends on the story. Jim Grimsley's Dream Boy threaded right along that line where it was there, but the references were subtle — probably in part because of the age of the narrator. I've read some where the scenes needed to be there and some where fade to black worked fine. As a writer, I've done both depending on what the story called for. (Nothing weirder than having your mom praise one of your stories with a heavy dose of smut, FYI.) 

As long as it's necessary to tell the story and doesn't use those timeworn metaphors in place of actual language, I'm fine with them — and often quite enjoy them.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I read a lot of romance and confess if the sex scenes are more than a page or two, I skim or skip. Then again, while I don't read genres like horror that specialize in blood and gore, I also skim and skip through scenes in any genre that are too violent for me.

Sex is so personal what works for different people is bound to be very different. Not long ago there was a review on one site that was a bit controversial because it read as if the reviewer gave the book a low grade just because the word "turgid" appeared in a sex scene. A book I stopped reading rather early on recently described buttocks as "fleshy mounds." Other things contributed to my abandoning the book, but that description sure had an ick factor for me.


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## soofy (Nov 26, 2011)

Depends on the book. I find that in some literary fiction books like Atonement where sexual frustration, innocence and coming of age are key themes a well written sex scene can be very provocative and fitting. But even if it is not key to the book, if it is well written it may work. For some reason reading sex scenes is more vivid than seeing it in film for me(like the Sonny Corleone scene in the Godfather). Not sure if that is the same for everyone.


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## brianjanuary (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm hardly a prude, but I would rather have sex scenes more off-camera, so to speak (I'm not talking about modern romance novels). In my own writing--if I find a sex scene necessary--I let the resader know what's going on, without the details.

Brian January


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

ellenoc said:


> "fleshy mounds."


I can't stop laughing.

Someone on Twitter last week was talking about


Spoiler



pebbled nipples


 in a romance. Man, those could chip teeth!


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## DH_Sayer (Dec 20, 2011)

Tony Richards said:


> Looking at it from a film director's point of view, Martin Scorcese has gone on record as saying that he generally avoid sex scenes because they just get in the way of the plot. He has a point, but books are rather different than movies ... sex scenes can work when they tell you something about the characters, or they can create atmosphere and tension, giving the story edginess and depth.


That's interesting... I'm not sure Scorsese has directed a really good sex scene before, which would make sense since he just isn't interested. Although that one he was forced to do for Who's That Knocking was interesting...


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## Elizabeth Black (Apr 8, 2011)

JennDu said:


> I picked up what I thought was a pure were-wolf novel, and it slowly turned into an erotica. (I double checked, but it wasn't labeled). While this isn't my favorite genre, I must admire the writer's sex scenes. They're really strong even if they make me blush from time to time. I'm wondering how everyone else feels about sex in their books? A fade to black works in pretty much all cases, so how far do you like your writers to go?


For me it depends on the genre and the particular book. Some books work well with plenty of sex and other are better off without it. My test is if I think the book works fine without the sex scenes, then the sex isn't necessary.


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## JBarry22 (Dec 12, 2011)

I personally don't find the necessary, but it's also not why I read. Some people read for that stuff. I just put it in the pile of things that aren't for me and weren't written for me to begin with.


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## Anne Maven (Apr 18, 2011)

Grace Elliot said:


> I'm a romance writer and would rate my work as 'sensuous' - so I would find it intriguing to turn the question around.
> If you are a romance reader - would you feel cheated to read a romance that didnt have a sex scene in it?
> I'd be interested in your responses.
> G x


As with anything, it adds to the drama if it's incorporated when it matters. It's difficult to believe in the romance aspect if it's page after page of "dripping this" and "swollen that". I wonder then, when the characters had time to think of love. It's always so interesting when characters with happening lives have sex 

And yes, I would absolutely feel cheated if the romance I was reading did not have sex in it.


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## aecardenas (Dec 16, 2011)

Atunah said:


> Maybe I just look at sex scenes like any other scene. Lets take a fighting scene in a epic fantasy. If one says, oh I don't need the sex described, I have my own imagination, does that apply to fighting scenes? So its, he grabbed his sword, killed the enemy and walked back home. The end. No further descriptions are necessary since we all have imagination right?
> 
> Same goes for a murder scene in a thriller/horror/etc novel. He killed her. That would be all there is for a fade to black there.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Sex is a part of life, and, conceivably, part of a character's life, too. The problem is twofold...

1. American Puritanism that, even after all these years, STILL can't be at ease with sexual expression, of any sort. I won't go into that, because it would go WAY off topic, but this country's attitudes toward's sexuality is just plain naive and embarrassing.

2. The other aspect of the problem is very simple: a lot of writer's CAN'T write good sex scenes. Period. That's why it's painful to read when they try. Writing sex scenes requires a careful and delicate balance between the physical mechanics of the act itself, the emotional aspects of the act, and the intent behind depicting the act--for example, is it to show the deepening connection between two characters? Is it to show how one character uses sex to control the other person, either forcibly or thru seduction? Is it to show how adventurous the characters are in how they explore their growing sexuality, which in turn may reveal an emotional growth that any other scene would simply fall short in articulating?

I really do believe that Sex is Truth. People live a lie of their own creation or live the lies that they were told by others. But in bed...in bed it's different. You're truly naked;in bed, emotionally and physically. That's when you see the real person. That's when you find out if they're stingy, if they're happy, if they're sad, if they're angry, if they love you, if they hate you.... Without words, without clothes, without masks, or pretense...sex is truth. The only truth worth knowing.

So bring it on!


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## sarahsbloke (Sep 24, 2011)

Most men's lives are ruled by sex, the quest for sex, access to sex, availability of sexual partners, etc.
Why does nobody admit that the sex scene is the MOST IMPORTANT part of any movie or book.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

sarahsbloke said:


> Most men's lives are ruled by sex, the quest for sex, access to sex, availability of sexual partners, etc.
> Why does nobody admit that the sex scene is the MOST IMPORTANT part of any movie or book.


I won't admit it because I don't think it's true. 

You're really given to broad generalizations, aren't you?


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, I won't admit it because I think it _is._

At least until the man becomes a parent . . . after that, the man's life is ruled by the quest for peace and quiet.


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## Lisa_Follett (Oct 22, 2011)

I would prefer a graphic sex scene over a graphic violence scene any day. I am an avid reader of romance. And of course, I want the sex scene to forward the story and to be emotionally relevant.


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm not offended by their presence or their absence. If the book works as it is, that's all I care about.

One thing I do hate, though, when a book reads like, "Meet cute real quick, sex, sex, sex, fight, almost make up, anger sex, someone says something stupid, break up, some random crisis, OMG I LOVE YOU!, sex, The End." I just don't get enough out of that to make me care about any of it.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I won't admit it because I don't think it's true.
> 
> You're really given to broad generalizations, aren't you?


LOL

I dont see much point in lying on the Internet anyway, lol


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## Ray Rhamey author (Jan 6, 2011)

Both as a writer and a reader, I think that sex scenes are good things when, and only when, they are absolutely necessary for the story and the character. In my four novels, two have sex scenes and two have none. I think they're kinda fun to write, and can definitely be fun to read. But if it's gratuitous, you lose me.


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

I think the way people have sex says so much about their character that I find it vital to write in detail about this if the psychology of my characters is important to the book.

Sex scenes aren't always erotica, they can be realistic and they can be unpleasant. They are part of life and an important part of some stories.

_sorry, no self-promotion in the Book Corner. _


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## sarahsbloke (Sep 24, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I won't admit it because I don't think it's true.
> You're really given to broad generalizations, aren't you?


And you really don't understand 50% of the world population!
(But that's OK, because I freely admit that I don't understand 50% of the world's population either)


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## Adele Ward (Jan 2, 2012)

I know a very good male author who is very quiet and gentle and likes to say he is 'not blokey'. He surprised me by talking about how important sex is in books. He told me if I wanted a book to sell it must have sex in it. He told me that if I write my autobiography I need loads of interesting bits about sex. That's what would sell it according to him. So I do have to agree with the person who said there's no doubt a good percentage of people who will only read something if it has sex in it. They find it very hard to imagine there are those of us who don't care one way or the other about sex scenes in the books we read. When I workshopped my novel he missed most of it but turned up for the workshops when we were doing the sex scenes!


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