# Regarding Amazon's "deceit."



## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

Okay, I don't mean to upset anyone, so I hope I don't.

On this forum (to a small degree) and on the Amazon one, I have seen many people upset that Amazon did a "bait and switch."  Supposedly, it was wrong of Amazon to keep taking orders for the Kindle knowing that the Kindle 2 was coming out.  

While I understand to a degree (I got my refurbished one in December), I am not so sure there would have been a good solution for Amazon.

Think about it.  If Amazon stopped taking orders, they would have had some amount of chaos on their hands.  People would have known (more than speculation) that the next version was coming out, and those within the return period would have sent back the old ones in large amounts.  

Not to mention, what everyone is kind of asking is basically, "Why didn't Amazon announce the Kindle 2 before they announced the Kindle 2?"  They had an announcement date, and even that leaked.  

In addition, no matter when they announced it, people would have been upset.  There is always going to be someone who just ordered or just received theirs.  So, there really is no good time to upgrade if that is the case.  

Again, I'm not trying to upset anyone.  So please, don't take me wrong.  I wish they would offer a trade-up program for those of us who just got our refurbished ones, but that is not the case.  

I hope this makes sense.


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## VMars (Feb 8, 2009)

I for one am perfectly happy waiting for a Kindle 2 (already on the list) and I don't feel deceived. I would have liked an SD card slot, but other than that...I don't think Amazon could have stopped taking orders either.


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## cheeki (Nov 29, 2008)

Ok, here's my opinion.   When I ordered my kindle in the end of October, I didn't know there was even a rumor about the possiblity of a K2.   I have had my K1 for 3 months, I just hate feeling that we should have been told that there was a new version coming out.  
I like the K1 and will not be trading for the K2. I CAN'T AFFORD TO.  I love the look and the size of the K2, but I've bought an Oberon cover and an m-edge for the K1, I just can't justify it.  I agree that maybe an incentive, like a  voucher for anyone who bought a K1 in the last 6 months can get a discount, even then.... It seems a little sneaky, like I say my K1 isn't even 4 months old..... 
Cheeki


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## Mikuto (Oct 30, 2008)

I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. All technology manufactures do this. Apple did it with the iPhone, dropping the price drastically much to the chagrin of early adopters. 

It might not be nice to those of us who got our Kindles just before they stopped sending them out (I bought mine at the end of October 200 but when it comes to technology, you kind of have to expect that a new version will come out at some point in time, and you will get no compensation for buying the old on.


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## TM (Nov 25, 2008)

I wonder if there wasn't an issue with getting a coponent for the original kindle (like the battery), so they ramped up the realease of version 2 and decided to just ship them.

And can you imagine the complaints if people had to wait 3 months for the orginal, and then only a few weeks after they got it, a new version came out? people are even u[set that have had their Kindle for a few months about a new one being release, so i think Amazon was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situtation"

I think Amazon was trying to do it's best to make people happy...


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

cheeki said:


> Ok, here's my opinion. When I ordered my kindle in the end of October, I didn't know there was even a rumor about the possiblity of a K2. I have had my K1 for 3 months, I just hate feeling that we should have been told that there was a new version coming out.
> I like the K1 and will not be trading for the K2. I CAN'T AFFORD TO. I love the look and the size of the K2, but I've bought an Oberon cover and an m-edge for the K1, I just can't justify it. I agree that maybe an incentive, like a voucher for anyone who bought a K1 in the last 6 months can get a discount, even then.... It seems a little sneaky, like I say my K1 isn't even 4 months old.....
> Cheeki


Keep in mind, mine is a month-and-a-half old. LOL I know how you feel.

I agree that it would be great if there were some kind of voucher or trade-up plan for a fee less than the cost of a new one. As a matter of fact, I sent Customer Service an e-mail asking about it. Right now, they have said no, that the only deal is the ability to order one by midnight tonight and to be some of the first (after those on hold) to get it, but I, like you, cannot afford that.

Perhaps if enough Kindle owners e-mail or call with that request (nicely, LOL) then maybe Amazon will consider it. Other retailers have done it before.


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

Mikuto said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. All technology manufactures do this. Apple did it with the iPhone, dropping the price drastically much to the chagrin of early adopters.
> 
> It might not be nice to those of us who got our Kindles just before they stopped sending them out (I bought mine at the end of October 200 but when it comes to technology, you kind of have to expect that a new version will come out at some point in time, and you will get no compensation for buying the old on.


I think you misunderstood. I'm agreeing with you. Yes, I wish they would offer a trade-up program for those who own the first, but I realize they are under no obligation to do so, and I'm not upset that they aren't (though other companies have, so it isn't unheard of).

What I was saying was that I don't find Amazon deceitful or in the wrong at all. It is business, and it is technology. That's what happens.


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

TM said:


> I wonder if there wasn't an issue with getting a coponent for the original kindle (like the battery), so they ramped up the realease of version 2 and decided to just ship them.
> 
> And can you imagine the complaints if people had to wait 3 months for the orginal, and then only a few weeks after they got it, a new version came out? people are even u[set that have had their Kindle for a few months about a new one being release, so i think Amazon was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situtation"
> 
> I think Amazon was trying to do it's best to make people happy...


I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Mikuto (Oct 30, 2008)

mwvickers said:


> I think you misunderstood. I'm agreeing with you. Yes, I wish they would offer a trade-up program for those who own the first, but I realize they are under no obligation to do so, and I'm not upset that they aren't (though other companies have, so it isn't unheard of).
> 
> What I was saying was that I don't find Amazon deceitful or in the wrong at all. It is business, and it is technology. That's what happens.


Apparently I lost about 10 points in reading comprehension. Sorry!


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## mwvickers (Jan 26, 2009)

Mikuto said:


> Apparently I lost about 10 points in reading comprehension. Sorry!


No apologies. I may not have been as clear as I thought or intended. LOL


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't have a particularly strong opinion about it, but I do think it's a little disingenuous to take orders that you have no intention of fulfilling.


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## Mikuto (Oct 30, 2008)

marianner said:


> I don't have a particularly strong opinion about it, but I do think it's a little disingenuous to take orders that you have no intention of fulfilling.


They are fulfilling the orders though, just with a new generation of the product. Which is, in my opinion, a bonus. Most people who order a first generation product do not expect to get a second generation for no extra cost.


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## jmeaders (Jan 8, 2009)

Mikuto said:


> They are fulfilling the orders though, just with a new generation of the product. Which is, in my opinion, a bonus. Most people who order a first generation product do not expect to get a second generation for no extra cost.


My eldest twin boy was surprised that the upgrade was at zero cost when I told. He'll be nine next month. So there you have it - a nine-year old sees a lot of value to this.

Add on that M-Edge is exchanging my cover and I'm really happy now. As soon as DecalGirl shows skins I'll be contacting them about an exchange.


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## TM (Nov 25, 2008)

jmeaders said:


> My eldest twin boy was surprised that the upgrade was at zero cost when I told. He'll be nine next month. So there you have it - a nine-year old sees a lot of value to this.
> 
> Add on that M-Edge is exchanging my cover and I'm really happy now. As soon as DecalGirl shows skins I'll be contacting them about an exchange.


I think it is a pretty good deal too (and I am glad M-Edge is doing an exchange for people).



Mikuto said:


> They are fulfilling the orders though, just with a new generation of the product. Which is, in my opinion, a bonus. Most people who order a first generation product do not expect to get a second generation for no extra cost.


I agree... and there is also the fact that no one was even charged for the Kindle when ordered. They will only be charged when it is shipped.


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## Lotus (Oct 31, 2008)

I think that Amazon thought it had enough K1s to see it through the holidays and up until the K2 debut. But, I think the Oprah show created more demand than Kindles, and Amazon just didn't have enough. Obviously, no retailer wants a shortage during the holidays. I'm sure they lost a lot of sales because of the lack of supply. It could also be that Amazon had hoped to launch the K2 in November, but that it just wasn't ready.

I think if I'd been waiting for a K1, I'd be sort of annoyed. Amazon isn't sending what people ordered. Sure it's the New and Improved one, but it may not be what everyone wanted.

I'm fine with my K1. I'll use it until it dies or until I have more money than sense.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

When I ordered my Kindle 1 in early November, I knew Kindle 2 was right around the corner. The BoyGenius pics were out by then, but even if they hadn't been, common sense would have told me that a newer version was on the horizon. Guess what: I opted for the K1 anyway, and I couldn't be happier.

I have no earthly idea why *anyone* is complaining about this.

Yes, I understand some people ordered cases and accessories for the K1 expecting to get that model. That's a pain in the ass, no doubt, but Amazon did not force you to order accessories for a product you didn't have in your hand.

I know others are upset about the lack of an SD slot in the K2. No arguments from me there. That *is* a downgrade IMO. Still, the K2 does other things K1 can't do, and it's still the awesome Kindle we all know and love.

To me, both models have their strengths and weakness. One isn't "worse" than the other IMO. Whichever one you have or get, ENJOY IT because the Kindle is a game-changing device whether it has a 1 or 2 attached to its name.


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## jmeaders (Jan 8, 2009)

Who's upset?    Oh, that was this morning.  Then it dawned on me how cool K2 is and M-Edge agreed to exchange my cover.  So... I'm cool.  

Oh... I forgot... when is my K2 going to get here!?!  I'm tired of waiting.  Arggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Ahhh... now I feel better.


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## Britt (Feb 8, 2009)

CS said:


> Yes, I understand some people ordered cases and accessories for the K1 expecting to get that model. That's a pain in the ass, no doubt, but Amazon did not force you to order accessories for a product you didn't have in your hand.


True, but many people called Amazon and were assured by customer service that if they ordered a Kindle 1, that's what they would get.


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## Elijsha (Dec 10, 2008)

i got my k1 in November 08. i got two skins an 2 nice covers Oberon an medge. but the way i see it is, my k1 will be the way i share my books with my family my library free of charge without interupting my reading on my k2  i see it as a investment.


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## sjc (Oct 29, 2008)

I think this thread needs a "reprint" of my earlier post PRE-press conference:

If I may; I'd like to mediate based on a few facts.

Amazon is known for great customer service.

*Fact: * I am on my third Kindle; each has been returned and replaced...No questions asked. I have also exchanged and or returned other non-K Amazon items no questions asked. To me...that is great customer service.

*Fact: * On this site and on the Discussions forum; I have witnessed many *"I wish K.2 had this that...etc." * Many many *complaints* about button placement, size...thickness...etc. It looks to me that Amazon is bending over backwards trying to please everyone...even offering an option to choose between K1 and K2. I believe that is very generous. I just bought a new laptop 2 mos ago and the model is already being replaced by another version...Nobody is offering me a choice there. Also, Amazon was replacing broken Kindles due to *user negligence * at half price...*hello? * I know that if I drop my laptop there will be no such offer!!
*
Amazon:* It looks a bit to me, that they are *damned if they do and damned if they don't. * If we, in general, don't cut this out...Amazon could very well say you know what: 30 day guarantee and that's it period. K1, K2 tough. No replacements no options no anything. *Do not bite the hand that feeds you.* We need to look at the manner in which OTHER companies handle such matters; we wouldn't be so quick to criticize Amazon. Microsoft wouldn't help me with a Microsoft question unless I forked up 32 dollars. I told them to keep it; I'd find the answer elsewhere...and it was their product still under warranty.

Also, DO NOT underestimate the power of Oprah or TV in general. Remember back in the day when she went down to a size 8 and people en mass follwed her diet plan; not to mention the Susan Powter 15 minutes and Millions fame...or the Suzanne Somers merchandise.

I do strongly believe that *Amazon had no clue* the repercussions that Oprah's K1 show was going to create. It probably did tenfold + than anticipated and it couldn't have been easy for them in any way. It can't be easy trying to keep K.1 users happy while trying to keep up with technology and to make good on requested improvements to K.2. all while offering a choice and meeting demands. (I can't help but thinking of the Lucy episode with the chocolate candy on the conveyer belt...that is probably what they are up against.) I think this current situation was coincidental poor timing and a case being overwhelmed. *I don't think Amazon out to dupe anyone.*
I'm certain anyone who comes up with a product wishes it could do so well; but there is no way of knowing what the outcome will be; if that were the case we would all be entrepreneurs and wealthy. Look at the "mood ring" craze the creator probably thought he or she would be lucky to sell 50 let alone millions. (OK..I'm dating myself; but you get my point, I'm sure.)

This is just my opinion; and I'm sure Amazon is making money hand over fist...but I do think that they have been fair (to their ability) and *generous with their policy.* I know when I first got my K...I called them several times with questions and they answered them fully without expecting me to fork over $$ to answer a simple question or ten...lol. Let's not get greedy and cut our noses to spite our faces...Amazon could be far worse.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

You know what they say about buying a computer.  The best one to buy is the one that comes out the day after you bought yours.  This is no different.  Technology just moves to fast for us to keep up.


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## sjc (Oct 29, 2008)

Though the above post is a bit "dated" because it was PRE Announcement; the premise is pretty much the same.  I see replacing a back ordered product with a new updated product as good.  So they took the choice factor away but gave gold instead of silver.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2009)

The only thing that really bothered me about this situation is what happens to the people that bought skins and covers anticipating a K1.  I see that M-Edge is offering an exchange policy.  I hope the other companies follow their example.

I am quite happy  with my K1 and see no need to upgrade yet.


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## gir (Feb 10, 2009)

I think the people that are complaining about CS telling them that they would definitely get a K1 if they ordered a K1 are forgetting one major tenet of business:  Lowly customer service reps are the last to know anything. Period. 
It seems that the day the press conf was announced and people started asking about getting K2's instead of K1's, the CS followed their script and told customers what they were supposed to. It wasn't until a couple of days after the press conf was announced that CS was obviously issued a new script with the "don't cancel your order, you'll be happy." (BTW, this is the impression I got from an accquaintance who works for Amazon - he had a s***-eating grin on his face and was hinting at how great the new K would be, but no specifics) I feel bad for those poor CS people, but it sounds like they are great to deal with.


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## artsandhistoryfan (Feb 7, 2009)

Mikuto said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. All technology manufactures do this. Apple did it with the iPhone, dropping the price drastically much to the chagrin of early adopters.


There was such a furor over that, Apple decided to issue some kind of gift certificate for what I remember as about $200 to those who bought the first one. This is because it was only two months or so between the two different models with the 2nd one being $200 less. Patrizia went through it so she might have the details. I remember reading about it and being glad Apple did something.


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## artsandhistoryfan (Feb 7, 2009)

sjc said:


> ... Let's not get greedy and cut our noses to spite our faces...Amazon could be far worse.


 Please don't confuse your own standards with those of others. Your post is thoughtful as always but can seem like an Amazon-written apologia. What I like is you don't heap disdain on other customers who feel differently though that quoted sentence above is on the border.

The most important thing to remember is that the Kindle is not an end-product in and of itself.

It is a vehicle with which Amazon hopes to make money from its owners ordering books and books and books (not to mention newspapers, magazines and blogs). That is its purpose. They are putting out a quality product (I thought they got an amazing amount RIGHT for a first edition).

But what they need are happy, enthusiastic, or at least satisfied customers who will talk up their Kindles and thus increase the amount of other people buying these vehicles which should then bring a lot of income to Amazon. Its book sales had decreased until the Kindle. And now the Kindle books are about 10% of its book sales.

Each happy customer (we have seen right here) tends to bring in MANY other ones.

Just because most customers may be happy with a situation is no reason to expect the other customers to feel differently. Too many customers want all other customers to feel the way they do.

Whether or not those wanting a trade-up price have a 'right' to feel as they do, the company will (for the good of its business and no other reason) ponder the feedback and buying reactions and decide what is best for Amazon and remember that Goodwill goes a long way with customers. Or they may decide it's just not that important to them.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

gir said:


> I think the people that are complaining about CS...


Those bastards!


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

artsandhistoryfan said:


> There was such a furor over that, Apple decided to issue some kind of gift certificate for what I remember as about $200 to those who bought the first one. This is because it was only two months or so between the two different models with the 2nd one being $200 less. Patrizia went through it so she might have the details. I remember reading about it and being glad Apple did something.


They gave a $100 gift certificate/credit which could only be used in the Apple store (as I recall, you couldn't even use it on iTunes) so folks were locked into buying something from Apple.

L


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## ginaf20697 (Jan 31, 2009)

The only bait and switch people should be annoyed about is the cover situation. If you ordered K1 you were supposed to get a cover and K2 doesn't come w/one. They really should be giving the people who had already ordered a cover.


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## artsandhistoryfan (Feb 7, 2009)

Leslie said:


> They gave a $100 gift certificate/credit which could only be used in the Apple store (as I recall, you couldn't even use it on iTunes) so folks were locked into buying something from Apple.
> 
> L


Thanks, Leslie. I will review the sequence of events back then as I was glad when they decided to do something for the earlier customers in that quick re-do of the device.

$100 to be spent only at Amazon would be very nice.


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## Cuechick (Oct 28, 2008)

It


Leslie said:


> They gave a $100 gift certificate/credit which could only be used in the Apple store (as I recall, you couldn't even use it on iTunes) so folks were locked into buying something from Apple.
> 
> L


It $100 if you got the 4g but more I think if you got the 8G which most people did. I got the 4G and got $100. I do not think this is at all the same situation though, cause the Kindle has been out much longer, was due for an update and the price is the same, actually more, since you do not get a case.


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## WolfePrincess73 (Dec 2, 2008)

I had purchased 2 iPhones, one for my daughter and one for me, right before they lowered the price. I was pleasantly surprised to receive the Apple credit. I didn't expect anything. It was my decision to purchase the phones and I was very happy with my phone. I guess I am trying to say, I wasn't upset with Apple for making a change. Lots of electronics drop in price and there is always going to be someone who just purchased right before the change. It's the risk you take.

I can understand people being upset and don't think anyone is wrong to feel that way. Just in this case, with the Kindle 2, I can see how it was hard for Amazon to pick any way to handle this that wouldn't have upset someone. Amazon is a business and they did have to think about that business when they picked the way to go. Again, there will always be someone who has just purchased the current model right before the newer one comes out. That doesn't make it any better for those people, it's just life. At least those who had ordered will get the newest version for the same price they would have paid for the original.

I don't see how Amazon could have stopped selling accessories for the K1 as there are many owners of K1 who don't plan to upgrade and will still need things for that version. I am crossing my fingers for everyone who purchased accessories that they will be able to return or exchange them!


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't have a problem with how Amazon handeled this. There really was no good way to do it. If they announce K2 after Thanksgiving but cannot fill orders for it until February they are going to loose those orders. Then people are going to complain that they are not prepared and how inept they are in manufacturing and distribution. 

I do think that they should have some K1's set aside so that people who want a K1 and not a K2 can get a new one with full warrenty. The only thing that has surprised me is that people waiting in line have not been given a choice as to K1 or K2. I have a feeling most people would upgrade but some would choose the K1.


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## jmeaders (Jan 8, 2009)

ginaf20697 said:


> The only bait and switch people should be annoyed about is the cover situation. If you ordered K1 you were supposed to get a cover and K2 doesn't come w/one. They really should be giving the people who had already ordered a cover.


Not a big deal if you have an M-Edge. M-Edge is exchanging same cost for same cost. My K1 cover is in the post to M-Edge now for exchange.


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

ProfCrash said:


> I do think that they should have some K1's set aside so that people who want a K1 and not a K2 can get a new one with full warrenty. The only thing that has surprised me is that people waiting in line have not been given a choice as to K1 or K2. I have a feeling most people would upgrade but some would choose the K1.


I think they'll probably have some refurbs soon, but I don't think they have any new K1s left.


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## standaman (Feb 11, 2009)

Yea I don't quite understand how this is decietful. I don't know how you can bait and switch for an upgrade to a product....


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## ScottBooks (Oct 28, 2008)

standaman said:


> Yea I don't quite understand how this is decietful. I don't know how you can bait and switch for an upgrade to a product....


Not everyone would consider it an upgrade...


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## Amarithmoon (Feb 5, 2009)

I second that not everyone thinks k2 is an upgrade.  I am one that is upset about the handling.  I understand those that have the k1 they bought being a bit angry about k2 coming out.  this as has been stated before always happens when new versions come out.  However, to defend myself and others stating bait and switch, 


I knew k2 would come out in the next few months.  Feb 2, I ordered a k1, yes they were out of stock, but the wait time was decreasing.  I ordered the k1, to get it, and pay the full 359.00 to get it, because that was the version I wanted.  no, i wasn't 100% sure of what the k2 would be at the time, but i didnt care.  my needs were met with the k1.  that is all that mattered to me.  To be flat out told, oh sorry, we have this "great" new kindle (2) and guess what, do nothing and thats what you will get, but we have no more Kindles (original) and will not carry them, so to bad about your luck, but we hope you really love the "upgrade" we gave you for the same price.  

Their version of upgrade and mine are obviously completely different.  And no I didnt and dont want a k2.  What I would have expected is for Amazon to stop taking orders for Kindle (orig) at 10 am when the announcement was made.  To (possibly) offer upgrades or the ability to cancel your k1 order and get in line for k2.  But the bait and switch comes in because, I ordered a k1, not a k2, and my order was changed, I have the email from amazon stating they changed my order without my consent.  So yes, they knew they were going to come out with k2, and kept taking k1 orders.  By definition, those that still want the k1, and not the k2, should have been given what they ordered (yes I would have waited the extra weeks for it to be made, so as to get a full warranty from amazon).  That didn't happen.  So amazon got none of my money.  Someone else did.  Dont get me wrong I am getting a kindle 1 and i cant wait, but amazon's practice here was really in the very grey area as far as bait and switch goes.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Honestly, disgruntled K1 users should get together with people who wanted a K1 but are getting a K2 instead. Do a swap and everyone's happy.


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## Amarithmoon (Feb 5, 2009)

the only problem i see with that is with the warranty issue.  as in those with k1 would trade for a k2 with a full warranty, those getting the even slightly used k1 dont have a full warranty.


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## CS (Nov 3, 2008)

Amarithmoon said:


> the only problem i see with that is with the warranty issue. as in those with k1 would trade for a k2 with a full warranty, those getting the even slightly used k1 dont have a full warranty.


Yeah, that is an issue. But you're going to run into that no matter where you get a K1 these days.

Still baffled as to why Amazon isn't continuing to sell them.


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

I would guess that the Kindle is a niche item that they don't feel there is enough demand to produce two versions at one time. Economies of scale come into play with something like this. 

I don't remember Apple continuing to produce older generations of the IPod when the new generation was released. They stopped making the 3rd generation IPod when they made the 4th generation IPod (the one that changed to the wheel).

There are several K1s for sale right now that are only a couple of months old. So you don't get the full warranty but you get a good amount of time under the warranty and you get the version that you want. It is not a perfect solution but it might be the best one for you.


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## ginaf20697 (Jan 31, 2009)

jmeaders said:


> Not a big deal if you have an M-Edge. M-Edge is exchanging same cost for same cost. My K1 cover is in the post to M-Edge now for exchange.


I would think most first time Kindle buyers don't have Kindle covers laying around the house. As I said, yes you're getting the newer version but you're going to be paying more since you probably want a cover to protect it. Some people are going to be annoyed at that and I don't blame them.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

CS said:


> Yeah, that is an issue. But you're going to run into that no matter where you get a K1 these days.
> 
> Still baffled as to why Amazon isn't continuing to sell them.


Sony keeps selling the earlier version of its ereader. Right now you can buy the 505 and the 700.

On the other hand, the minute the 3G iPhone came out, they stopped selling the previous version.

It would seem that in this case, Amazon is following the Apple business model.

L


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## MamaProfCrash (Dec 16, 2008)

Is Sony manufacutring the 505 or are those just the left over units?


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