# How dangerous are cliffhangers??



## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

This morning I wrote the ending to my latest novella and while I love it, some readers may not.

The problem? The ending sets up the story for the next installment.

For a new (or potential) series, how dangerous are cliffhangers?


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## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

I learned a difficult lesson with cliffhangers on my first novel.

From the beginning, I intended on the story being a series - at least 4 if not 5 books. 

At the end of the first book, I included an epilogue section that set up the intro to the 2nd book.

For some reason, a vast majority of Kindle readers didn't see (or didn't read) the chapter title "Epilogue," and I had several bad reviews complaining that their kindle version didn't download completely. 

We did a modification, put "THE END" at the bottom of the regular book, increased the font size of "EPILOGUE" and updated the descriptions to tout "The first of the series," in the product description. 

Those changes worked. The publishing of the second book helped as well.

It's a fine line for an author to walk - closing the main story of book 1 while leading into book 2. When you start on book 2, it can be difficult to write enough detail so the work stands on its own and doesn't repeat everything in book 1. That said, a series develops a loyal set of readers and can spark nice sales immediately after release.

I'm glad I did it. My 4th book in the series should be released soon. I'm pondering a fifth.


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## JodyMorse (Jun 7, 2011)

I've found that people either love them or hate them. Some people do leave reviews complaining about them, but it usually comes along with an, "Even though I'm pissed off, I'll still read the next book anyway because I need to find out what happens."


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

You should ask yourself where you see cliffhangers: on free TV or at paid-for movies? On TV, of course, because it's "free" in a technical sense. But you never see cliffhangers at theatres or in books because no one pays for _half _ a book or _half _ a movie.

So unless you plan to make the first in the series permanently free, it's probably not a good idea to let it end in a cliffhanger. Even a cliffhanger in a freebie might not fly because people associated books with a paid-for product, even when it hasn't been.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I use cliffhangers in every chapter and at the end of every book if I can. Some readers hate them. I find that many more love them. Write what you want, what you feel in your gut.


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## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

For me as a reader, a lot of it has to do with turnaround time till the next book. If you're going to consistently put them out in a reasonable amount of time, I'll go for that ride. Even better if you can tell us when the next one is -- and hit that deadline.


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

My one book 'From Hell' is part of a series and ends on a big cliffhanger, thus far, had one very grumpy review and a couple of very positive ones. 
I've debated commenting on the one-star review explaining that I'm writing the sequel at the moment, but given the controversy of commenting on reviews on Amazon, I've refrained. I guess someone didn't like reading 500-600 pages only to be left 'hanging.'  Learned my lesson - won't release multi-part books in future until they're all written, lined up, and ready to go.


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

I think it really depends on your definition of a cliff-hanger.

IMHO, having 'loose ends' at the end (which lead into another book) is fine. Ending chapters at an exciting point is fine. Both are good techniques. But not finishing the main story will p*ss off a lot of readers (me included).

The only way (again, IMHO) you can get away with this is if the story is *clearly * labeled as 'Part 1 of 4' or something like that. I don't mean part of a series because I still expect each book to conclude satisfactorily.

And I don't mean simply mentioning it in the blurb because often the blurb is long forgotten by the time I start reading that particular book. By 'clearly', I mean something in the title, something I can't miss.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

WHDean said:


> You should ask yourself where you see cliffhangers: on free TV or at paid-for movies? On TV, of course, because it's "free" in a technical sense. But you never see cliffhangers at theatres or in books because no one pays for _half _ a book or _half _ a movie.
> 
> So unless you plan to make the first in the series permanently free, it's probably not a good idea to let it end in a cliffhanger. Even a cliffhanger in a freebie might not fly because people associated books with a paid-for product, even when it hasn't been.


Actually I see them all the time on TV and Movies. 
Free is a strategy I plan when I have the additional books.



Hugh Howey said:


> I use cliffhangers in every chapter and at the end of every book if I can. Some readers hate them. I find that many more love them. Write what you want, what you feel in your gut.


Thanx&#8230; that is the direction I'm leaning. My hope is the story will be solid enough to carry readers.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

I'm with Mr. Howey- cliffhangery everywhere you can. Make it harder for someone to put your book/erc down by making them desperately want to see how things work out.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Dangerous? Too my Kindle and sanity probably  . I might throw it at the wall if I get to the end of a book and it ends with a cliffhanger. Especially if there was no indication anywhere that it was not a finished book. If I know its a series, I might expect it a bit. But then I would not read the series until all is published. 

I don't like the unfortunate trend I am coming across of books with no ending and being part of a series with a cliffhanger without notice of anything in the description. Detest them. Especially if there is no follow up in sight. Its dishonest.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

Atunah- what if the main story was resolved but the cliffhanger epilogue sets up a new story. Take for example the movie Lake Placid. Crocs are dead then we see Betty White feeding baby crocs. Clearly there's gonna be another story.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I HATE cliffhangers.  Especially from authors I'm reading for the first time.  If I buy your book, get to the end and you leave your hero hanging, chances are good I'm not picking up your next book.  I may eventually go back and buy the whole series when it's finished, but I won't buy book two until I see that you've written them all.

In fact, I've given up on a big trad published author because in the middle of a series he leaves his characters in the middle of a BIG unresolved plot.  

And a certain author here on KB has been threatened with minor bodily harm because he made the second book in a trilogy a total cliffhanger.  

But, that's just me. If you feel you need to leave your characters in the air to get people to buy your next book, then go for it.  But remember, there will be some people who won't like it, and will be vocal about it.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

CEMartin2 said:


> Atunah- what if the main story was resolved but the cliffhanger epilogue sets up a new story. Take for example the movie Lake Placid. Crocs are dead then we see Betty White feeding baby crocs. Clearly there's gonna be another story.


That is not really a cliffhanger is it? To me a cliffhanger is leaving off with a main character's life in the balance, or someones enemy coming into the door holding a gun, etc. When a book just ends in the middle of a scene. 
Then you get the "part 2 coming whenever I get to writing it" at the end. .

I never seen Lake Placid, but movies in general are very different to me than reading a book. I seem to be more connected to books so I think I give more leeway to movie gimmicks. I have less tolerance in books.

But its also where there is no indication of any kind that there is a followup. Like I read the Fever series by Moning. I knew from reviews there would be a huge cliffhanger at the end of book 4. Therefore, I waited until about a couple of weeks before book 5 was about to be released and then started the series. Unfortunately for me I devoured the 4 books that I still had to wait a few days for the last one. . But then other had to wait months. I want to prevent those things when I know its a series like that.

But in general I hate, detest cliffhangers. If I don't know and read to the "end" and I find one of those, I won't pick anything up by that author again. I just think of it as a gimmick to use.


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## Nathalie Hamidi (Jul 9, 2011)

How should one proceed then?
I'm trying Tattooed Writer's serials idea for publishing next year.
Here is how it is going to go:

- 1 arc, six issues
- each issue is like a tv show episode, meaning there is a conflict that goes from the first to the sixth, but then there is also one "story" and evenement per issue
- so far I have 3 arcs, with six issues each
- from one issue to another, this is an ongoing story, which means that parts of the main story will go through all six issues (and over to the other 2 arcs after that)
- there is a resolution at the end of each arc, and a "small" resolution of the problem at hand at the end of each issue (but not of the main plot which goes on during the whole arc).
- arcs can be read as standalones but have some kind of last sentence or paragraph that hints at the next arc
- issues cannot be read as standalones but only have half-cliffhangers (of the main story, each issue has resolution in it)

How would you go about making that very clear in the blurb or full description of the book, so that people don't feel cheated and can avoid my books if they don't like that format?


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## John H. Carroll (Nov 26, 2010)

I don't know whether they like it or not.  However, I love writing them, soooo . . .


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

kookoo88 said:


> I don't know whether they like it or not. However, I love writing them, soooo . . .


And that is it right there. I read about authors that just love writing them, but I can't recall hearing readers say how much they just love cliffhangers.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

CEMartin2 said:


> Atunah- what if the main story was resolved but the cliffhanger epilogue sets up a new story. Take for example the movie Lake Placid. Crocs are dead then we see Betty White feeding baby crocs. Clearly there's gonna be another story.


Seriously? You think Betty White feeding baby crocks is a _cliffhanger_? If the movie ended with Betty White having the baby crocs swarming her, THAT would be a cliffhanger. "OMIGAWD WHAT HAPPENED TO BETTY?" To me, Betty White feeding baby crocks is foreshadowing. And I wouldn't mind that.

But I hate cliffhangers in books. I.will.not.buy.the.next.one. Just sayin'. Maybe I'm not your target audience, so it doesn't matter. Maybe I'm only one reader, so it doesn't matter. But if you end the book with the main character in a life or death situation (cliffhanger) and think it will make _me_ buy your next book, don't. I consider it emotional blackmail and I refuse to be blackmailed. I stopped reading a couple of well regarded series because they were cliff hangers.

Betsy


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

Atunah said:


> And that is it right there. I read about authors that just love writing them, but *I can't recall hearing readers say how much they just love cliffhangers*.


Atunah - you summed it up nicely.

Writers - at best, readers will accept a cliffhanger. At worst, they will throw your book down in disgust and/or leave you a one-star rating. Is it worth the chance?

Honestly, if you write a good book and leave a few loose ends (not a cliffhanger), I will probaby pick up your next book. Resorting to cliff-hangers smacks of desperation and could very well backfire.

Hugh - you wrote _"I use cliffhangers in every chapter and at the end of every book if I can."_

I don't remember 'Wool' ending with a cliffhanger?

CEMartin2 - Good point about the difference between cliffhanger and foreshadowing. I agree, foreshadowing is fine.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanx for the great feedback.

Certainly a lot to think about.


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## leedobbins (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd be pretty pissed if I bought a book and the main story wasn't resolved at the end.  Not sure if that's what you mean by a cliffhanger.

Now, if you add a few things at the end to peak my interest about a next book, then that is just fine and dandy.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

Brian Spangler said:


> This morning I wrote the ending to my latest novella and while I love it, some readers may not.
> 
> The problem? The ending sets up the story for the next installment.
> 
> For a new (or potential) series, how dangerous are cliffhangers?


I resent cliffhangers - I feel as though the writer is being manipulative. I don't mind a series, but each in that series has to be capable of standing alone or I won't look at further work from that author.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

The tricky thing is realizing what will strike readers as a cliffhanger. I ended _Nolander _with what struck me as the culmination of a trend I'd been developing -- pretty obviously, I thought -- through the latter half of the book (MC realizes she's attracted to a He's-Bad-News sort of guy). It didn't occur to me that readers would see that realization as a cliffhanger ending -- it occurs after the MC has completed/overcome all the book's plot arcs, has survived the dangers and is "resting safe" for the moment. To my mind, the realization just made things slightly unsettled at the end, creating an opening direction for Book 2. But several readers have commented on the "cliffhanger ending" in reviews. Beats me.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Seriously? You think Betty White feeding baby crocks is a _cliffhanger_? If the movie ended with Betty White having the baby crocs swarming her, THAT would be a cliffhanger. "OMIGAWD WHAT HAPPENED TO BETTY?" To me, Betty White feeding baby crocks is foreshadowing. And I wouldn't mind that.


I'd consider Lake Placid's ending barely a cliffhanger- at the other end of the spectrum from saynthe ending of Back to the Future 2. Clearly, the main story is over, but we knewit wasn't the end of Doc Brown and Marty's story.


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## Lloyd MacRae (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it depends on whether or not your book feels complete.

I just saw the Hobbit with some friends and everyone had the same feeling with how it ended...

"What the--"


And we all read the books and know the story.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

E.L. MacRae said:


> I think it depends on whether or not your book feels complete.
> 
> I just saw the Hobbit with some friends and everyone had the same feeling with how it ended...
> 
> ...


I read and enjoyed the books as a child, but the movies all strike me as been in urgent need of editing. They could lose forty percent of the film and pick up the pace. At the moment they drag.


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

It depends on the cliffhanger.   If you just end the book without anything resolved or barely resolved, of course the readers will be angry and annoyed. I would be too, but if the plot is resolved and the ending merely announces the next book, then awesome! I have a cliffhanger in one of my books and people's reactions are mostly "omg, that cliffhanger. I need the next one asap". No one actually complained about it. Another book I wrote doesn't have a cliffhanger and I'm almost sorry I didn't write one. As I reader, I only hate cliffhangers when the next book isn't out, so I have to wait too long to find out what happens next.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

CEMartin2 said:


> I'd consider Lake Placid's ending barely a cliffhanger- at the other end of the spectrum from saynthe ending of Back to the Future 2. Clearly, the main story is over, but we knewit wasn't the end of Doc Brown and Marty's story.


I'm not seeing feeding baby crocodile's as a cliffhanger, but ok, we can differ on that one...  On the other hand, I have no idea how Back to the Future 2 ended, and I saw it. So it couldn't have made much impression on me. I think the original is the only one I've seen more than once.

I've seen a lot of threads in the WC and the Book Corner about things that are show stoppers for readers--first person, third person omniscient, and I don't really care about anything except how well the story is told. And I think ending a book with a cliffhanger is cheap storytelling. Sorry.  Hey, if it works for others, that's great. 

Betsy


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> I learned a difficult lesson with cliffhangers on my first novel.
> 
> From the beginning, I intended on the story being a series - at least 4 if not 5 books.
> 
> ...


Very interesting dilemma, and one I'm now confronted with. I'm writing a trilogy and am neck deep in book 1, however the thought had occurred to me to have a great cliffhanger, then I had second thoughts, wondering if perhaps readers would just chuck my thriller into the fireplace when it didn't have a smiley happy ending. That isn't to say that I want to make it a Coen Bros. flick, where the writers slap you in the face at the end (No Country for Old Men), but didnt want to write a 120,000 word novel as that is what it takes to tell the story I want to tell.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

It seems to me that part of the issue is there seems to be a wide range of opinion on what constitutes a cliffhanger.

I don't consider every loose end has to be tied up at the end of a novel.  For example, I just finished reading the Harriet Vane/Peter Wimsey novels by Dorothy Sayers.  It takes Harriet & Peter three full novels to meet and then for him to finally convince her to marry him at the very end of the third novel. (Sorry if that's a spoiler.) But each story stands on its own other than the question of whether or not she says "yes."  To me, that is NOT a cliffhanger.  A cliffhanger would be the murderer holding Harriet at gunpoint at the end of the novel and forcing her into his car.  It's the difference between a series and a serial, for me.

Betsy


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## Claudia King (Oct 27, 2012)

I feel pretty strongly that cliffhangers should only be used as a straightforward hook and nothing more. If your cliffhanger is "and then the book ended without you finding out how it ended", that's awful in my view. There has to be a payoff _before_ the cliffhanger comes. Some kind of central conflict has to be resolved in a satisfactory manner, and then you can have armed gunmen kick down the door out of nowhere and cut to black.
A good example I read recently was The Hunger Games. At the end of that book the heroine's ordeals are really only just beginning, but the focus of the book - the Hunger Games themselves - have been thoroughly concluded and wrapped up in a neat ribbon.

I feel like a good cliffhanger should be a hanging question, but not THE hanging question.


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## AmsterdamAssassin (Oct 21, 2011)

I resolve the main story at the end of the book, but I make my characters memorable enough to encourage readers to buy the series to see what happens to the characters next. I think that to leave the main story unresolved could work for a serialized novel [like King's Green Mile serial], but a full novel should be able to stand alone. Furthermore, while I'd encourage readers to read Reprobate before they read Peccadillo, you can read my novels out of sequence.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

leedobbins said:


> I'd be pretty p*ssed if I bought a book and the main story wasn't resolved at the end. Not sure if that's what you mean by a cliffhanger.
> 
> Now, if you add a few things at the end to peak my interest about a next book, then that is just fine and dandy.


ETA: I ended the main conflict and then just added a bit on at the end to pique the reader's interest in the sequel.

That's what I did, but the one review I got calls this a cliffhanger...


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

For what it's worth - if I'm reviewing a book and it does not resolve the main conflict - I automatically deduct a star. I hate cliffhangers. There's a little thing called plot and it has many parts. One of them is called a resolution. Maybe not to all the conflicts - but each story should have a main conflict and that must be resolved by the end of the book or it's a cliffhanger.

The perfect cliffhanger (and I would give that book two stars, even though I enjoyed the characters, the story and the writing) is The Golden Compass. I eventually did read the rest of the series, but like others - not until after Pullman finished the trilogy. And, his turnaround time was awful. Ditto for Game of Thrones books. I have read all of them so far, but it takes so long to get to the next story I've forgotten almost everything in the previous books.

Cliffhangers suck.

...with that said - my fourth book totally has a cliffhanger...


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't really have a strong opinion about cliff-hangers. I sort of like reading them, as long as the next book is already available but if I had to wait a long time to get that next book, then I might be annoyed.


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

DarkScribe said:


> I resent cliffhangers - I feel as though the writer is being manipulative. I don't mind a series, but each in that series has to be capable of standing alone or I won't look at further work from that author.


Thanks, saved me typing it


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

There is a VAST difference between:

A. Main arc of story is wrapped up. In the final pages, a new twist is introduced.

B. Holy crapadoodle this is just half a book.

I think if you write serial fiction, most people understand it's going to be more like B.

You'll annoy people no matter what you do. The only way to not annoy people is to stop publishing.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I had a "funny" experience with accidentally having a cliffhanger in one of my novels. I didn't intend it to be one really. I *thought* that it was perfectly clear that the tide of the battle had turned at the end of Countenance of War. To me it was the climax of the novel, when the Scots knew they were winning -- but there were at least a few readers who didn't see it that way. Mind you, it hasn't gotten a lot of criticism for a cliffhanger ending, but I did wonder if I should have finished the battle. To me the big moment was that one when the Scots suddenly realize they are crushing the largest army that (at that point) the English had ever brought to Scotland and the shout went up, "On them! They fail!" 

So that's where I ended the novel.  That didn't mean that the main arc of the story was wrapped up because I think it is appropriate that the main arc in a trilogy should be through the entire trilogy and not just introduce a new twist at the end of each book. But I try to put some kind of satisfaction at the end of each novel even if it doesn't complete the main arc.


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## lmckinley (Oct 3, 2012)

> For example, I just finished reading the Harriet Vane/Peter Wimsey novels by Dorothy Sayers.


This has nothing to do with anything, but I just wanted to say how much I love these books, (the ones that I've read.)

The closest I can think of to a cliff hanger that was kinda' enjoyable is from a movie, The Usual Suspects, when the Kaiser Soze guy turns out to have gotten away after all. It was one of those things where I was almost upset, not at the writers, but at the characters. It's one of the only things I still remember about the movie. But it fit beautifully with the kind of story that was being told. Maybe it depends on why the cliffhanger is there - does it say something about the characters? Is it something that is coherent for the universe your writing in? Or is it just unfinished?

That being said, I think a novella might have more leeway, since you are obviously offering a relatively brief look into the lives of your characters. If you have wrapped up at least some of the key conflicts in the story, it might work. And sometimes the unexpected is refreshing. But for me, I find that I prefer reading books to watching TV shows because they have a coherent story and idea to tell, rather than stringing things along in an episodic way, full of future expectations that never seem to deliver after all the anticipation.

I believe some people will complete a novel or series and then release it in parts, but quite close together, like within a week or two of each other. Maybe you should wait until the next installment is ready before putting your work out there. Or not. Just thinking out loud.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Dalya said:


> You'll annoy people no matter what you do. The only way to not annoy people is to stop publishing.


True that.

If you're not writing serial fiction and you get serious complaints that you have left people horribly disappointed, it's likely that you forgot to include the validation (the part where the audience basically gets some relief/gratification and knows that the main story has wrapped up). You can write cliffhangers and if you include a validation, it helps minimize your pissed off readers. There are also other kinds of cliffhangers besides simple physical peril (which is usually the thinnest/cheapest and the one that sets a reader's teeth to grinding unless executed brilliantly) and sometimes what sets one reader off draws another in.

I like writing epic, multi-book arcs that tie smaller stories together with a bigger story. It's what I write because it's what I like to read. For my money, cliffhangers pay me very well and cause only a small amount of blowback in reviews. Your mileage, as always, may vary.


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

lmckinley said:


> [...]The closest I can think of to a cliff hanger that was kinda' enjoyable is from a movie, The Usual Suspects, when the Kaiser Soze guy turns out to have gotten away after all. [...]


Again, I think a big point is how we define _cliffhanger_. I don't consider the above xample above to be one.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Dalya said:


> You'll annoy people no matter what you do. The only way to not annoy people is to stop publishing.


Love it! No plans to stop writing or publishing so I guess I better get used to annoying people.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia King said:


> I feel pretty strongly that cliffhangers should only be used as a straightforward hook and nothing more. If your cliffhanger is "and then the book ended without you finding out how it ended", that's awful in my view.


I would ask for my money back if this ^ happened in a book I bought. Because I would never buy a book knowingly that didn't have a resolution at all for the main story arc.



> There has to be a payoff _before_ the cliffhanger comes. Some kind of central conflict has to be resolved in a satisfactory manner, and then you can have armed gunmen kick down the door out of nowhere and cut to black.


This ^ is how I define a cliffhanger. And I won't buy the second book if the first one ends this way.



> A good example I read recently was The Hunger Games. At the end of that book the heroine's ordeals are really only just beginning, but the focus of the book - the Hunger Games themselves - have been thoroughly concluded and wrapped up in a neat ribbon.


I enjoyed the Hunger Games trilogy and read them all because I wanted to know more about the characters. I didn't consider those to have "cliffhanger" endings. Just a knowledge that there is more to the story. It's a series set in a particular space and time.

Interesting discussion for this reader.

Betsy


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

leedobbins said:


> I'd be pretty p*ssed if I bought a book and the main story wasn't resolved at the end. Not sure if that's what you mean by a cliffhanger.
> 
> Now, if you add a few things at the end to peak my interest about a next book, then that is just fine and dandy.


I would be _shocked_ if, in a trilogy, the main story was resolved at the end. In fact if it is, I wouldn't consider it a trilogy.

ETA: fixed so it doesn't say the OPPOSITE of what I meant.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I would ask for my money back if this ^ happened in a book I bought. Because I would never buy a book knowingly that didn't have a resolution at all for the main story arc.
> 
> This ^ is how I define a cliffhanger. And I won't buy the second book if the first one ends this way.
> 
> ...


Don't ever, every read a GRR Martin novel. 

Seriously, in a trilogy (or longer series) you don't think there should be some conflict arc for the entire series? I would consider bringing in something unrelated--a la the problem is solved but someone then kicks down the door--at the end as a cheap trick.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> Don't ever, every read a GRR Martin novel.
> 
> Seriously, in a trilogy (or longer series) you don't think there should be some conflict arc for the entire series? I would consider bringing in something unrelated--a la someone unrelated kicking down the door--at the end as a cheap trick.


Well, of course, I don't mind if there's some kind of a conflict arc for the whole series. I consider The Hunger Games to have an overall conflict arc of the evil government and will it be overthrown. The example I cited earlier, the Harriet Vane/Peter Wimsey stories have an overall story arc of "will she say yes or not?" The Harry Potter books definitely had an overall story arc, but each book was a complete story as far as I was concerned. And I agree completely, bringing someone in at the end to kick down a door would be a cheap trick.

And, now that you mention it, I have read some of the Game of Thrones...which I started because of the HBO series. Each individual book is so meaty--there are storylines that get started and resolved and then new ones start while having an overall story arc. Or multiple arcs. I love a thick book. I've enjoyed the ones I've read  And yet, I've lost touch with the series and can't be bothered at this point to read the next book.... I think I've gotten tired of the endless come ons for a payoff that never arrives.

Betsy


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I would ask for my money back if this ^ happened in a book I bought. Because I would never buy a book knowingly that didn't have a resolution at all for the main story arc.
> 
> This ^ is how I define a cliffhanger. And I won't buy the second book if the first one ends this way.
> 
> ...


Your last statement about Hunger Games is interesting. I found each of the Hunger Game installments to border a cliffhanger.
I suppose if a story just ended that would be bad. What I'm working offers conclusion to main conflict, but introduces additional story.

Question: let's say you end with a cliffhanger and then introduce bonus material, such as the first chapter of the next installment? Too cheap?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian Spangler said:


> Your last statement about Hunger Games is interesting. I found each of the Hunger Game installments to border a cliffhanger.


I'm going to have to go back and re-read the endings, as I really don't recall a cliffhanger...maybe it's my memory. 



> I suppose if a story just ended that would be bad. What I'm working offers conclusion to main conflict, but introduces additional story.
> 
> Question: let's say you end with a cliffhanger and then introduce bonus material, such as the first chapter of the next installment? Too cheap?


*shrug* Some people like bonus material, others don't. I don't much care one way or another. I just don't want to be blackmailed into buying the next book to find out how the heroine or hero gets out of the death trap they're in. I stopped reading one paranormal series, not sure, it was very highly rated, because the books always ended with the heroine in an alley about to die. Fine. Let her die. That's what I consider a cliffhanger, not some unresolved plot point.

Betsy


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> I would be _shocked_ if, in a trilogy, the main story was resolved at the end. In fact if it is, I wouldn't consider it a trilogy.
> 
> ETA: fixed so it doesn't say the OPPOSITE of what I meant.


That's not quite how I see the overall structure of a trilogy - or any series that continues the storyline.

Each book MUST, to not be a cliffhanger, resolve the central issue of that particular book. GRRM does not do this in the GOT series - this is why people are frustrated. It's got an overall arc to the story, but it has almost zero resolution to anything.

This really ticks readers off, however, he does have an HBO series and is making bank...so...

The Hunger Games is the PERFECT trilogy which does NOT have a cliffhanger. Each story is unique, yet each one builds on the next. Yes, there is an over all story arc - what's the deal with this society? Who is bad and who is good? Will Katniss ever find happiness?

Yet each book RESOLVES.


Spoiler



Katniss and Peta win the games together in book one. The society is exposed as corrupt in book two and Katniss realizes there's another "side" to things. And in book three everything comes full circle and Katniss realizes everyone is corrupt and full of crap and there's no way in hell she's ever gonna fit in again.



None of these books have cliffhangers. Not even book two- which in my opinion was the best of them all. Book two ends with a _realization_ as the payoff.

If you want to write a cliffhanger to lead into the next book, just make sure you resolve the central issue for the book you're writing first. Even in my own cliffhanger the goal of book four is completely resolved - what isn't resolved are the consequences of reaching that goal.

There's a big difference.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks, JanneCO, you've expressed what I was trying to much more coherently.  

Betsy


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanx JanneCO – stand corrected.


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## Aya Ling (Nov 21, 2012)

I really liked the Hunger Games cliffhangers at the end of each chapter (especially the first book), they kept me turning the pages.

I remember that the Nancy Drew books also tend to end each chapter with something like a bloodcurdling scream or crash, which makes you want to know what happens, though a dozen books later, the strategy gets kind of stale  

And I agree that a book should have an overall resolution in the end. Some loose ends can be left untied, but the main conflict should be resolved. But with chapters, it doesn't matter--except that my back gets sore from sitting too long!


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Brian Spangler said:


> Actually I see them all the time on TV and Movies.


We clearly have different ideas about what cliffhangers are. My idea is more in line with KV Witten's. I'd say the perfect example of a cliffhanger is a two-part episode of an episodic drama on TV. The end of part one is a cliffhanger.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

jljarvis said:


> Really?
> _The Twilight Saga_
> _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows_


Never watched or read either one. But both were established franchises before they hit the movies, so it's not like anyone could've been surprised.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

KVWitten said:


> Hugh - you wrote _"I use cliffhangers in every chapter and at the end of every book if I can."_
> 
> I don't remember 'Wool' ending with a cliffhanger?


Really? The reason I had to write more books in the series is because reviewers demanded to know what happened next. I'm sorta with you in that it wasn't an obvious cliffhanger, but people felt like there was more story to tell.

And I use them *if* I can. Sometimes I don't. And I agree with all the posters who say you need to wrap up the main plot line and *then* introduce a twist or a tease. That's the sort of thing I like to do. Give some satisfaction, and then raise another question.


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Really? The reason I had to write more books in the series is because reviewers demanded to know what happened next. I'm sorta with you in that it wasn't an obvious cliffhanger, but people felt like there was more story to tell.
> [...]


Actually, I think we agree. I don't consider the ending of 'Wool' (the original novella) to be a cliffhanger because the main character's story/conflict was ended/resolved (trying not to give anything away to the one or two people who might not have read it yet  ).


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

KVWitten said:


> Actually, I think we agree. I don't consider the ending of 'Wool' (the original novella) to be a cliffhanger because the main character's story/conflict was ended/resolved (trying not to give anything away to the one or two people who might not have read it yet  ).


Like me...it's on my TBR list.

Having more of the story to tell or the readers wanting to know what happens next in a character's life is not necessarily a cliffhanger by my definition. Maybe I'm too old, but I think of "The Perils of Pauline" when I think of cliffhangers... 

Betsy


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## keithdraws (May 20, 2011)

Cliffhangers are a bit of a pain, but I do like it when an author finishes a story and then sets up the next book. That way I feel like I got my moneys worth from the story and hey  I'm going to get it again when I buy the next one.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

JanneCO said:


> That's not quite how I see the overall structure of a trilogy - or any series that continues the storyline.
> 
> Each book MUST, to not be a cliffhanger, resolve the central issue of that particular book. GRRM does not do this in the GOT series - this is why people are frustrated. It's got an overall arc to the story, but it has almost zero resolution to anything.
> 
> ...


I can't use _Hunger Games_ as an example since I didn't like it and didn't finish the first book. But I maintain that if you resolve the _central issue_, you're not writing a trilogy. You're writing a bunch of stand alone novels with the same characters.

ETA: And what frustrates people about TGoT--or more properly SoIaF when you're talking about the series--isn't that nothing was resolved at the end of book 1. It's that SIXTEEN years later at the end of book SIX, still nothing is resolved--and on the last page of book 6 a certain extremely well loved character may have died??! (Holy Cliffhanger, Batman! So not fair from an author who takes forever to write a book) 

But people are still buying them and reading them and will his next one too. 

I like to end with something satisfactory, unlike Martin who is more likely to end with a character you love dying. I'll go with: They are no longer _quite_ as likely to die today as they were yesterday. They may win this huge battle. There is someone James loves who hasn't been captured and killed (yet). But resolving the _central conflict_ would end the series and it wouldn't be a trilogy.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Really? The reason I had to write more books in the series is because *reviewers demanded to know what happened next.* I'm sorta with you in that it wasn't an obvious cliffhanger, but people felt like there was more story to tell.
> 
> And I use them *if* I can. Sometimes I don't. And I agree with all the posters who say you need to wrap up the main plot line and *then* introduce a twist or a tease. That's the sort of thing I like to do. Give some satisfaction, and then raise another question.


Interesting you should say that because a lot of the Golden Age SF started out as shorts in magazines. I think Azimov's _Foundations _ started out that way, so did _Earth Abides_, _Canticle for Liebowitz_, and Bradbury's _Something Wicked this Way Comes_. There are probably more--I'm going on memory here--but the key here is that the stories were stories that grew into novels, trilogies, etc.

I think what people are forgetting is that it's blantantly obvious when someone gives half the story to get people to read the next installment.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

WHDean said:


> Interesting you should say that because a lot of the Golden Age SF started out as shorts in magazines. I think Azimov's _Foundations _ started out that way, so did _Earth Abides_, _Canticle for Liebowitz_, and Bradbury's _Something Wicked this Way Comes_. There are probably more--I'm going on memory here--but the key here is that the stories were stories that grew into novels, trilogies, etc.
> 
> I think what people are forgetting is that it's blantantly obvious when someone gives half the story to get people to read the next installment.


And if the story is just too big to fit in one novel, we're just supposed not to tell it?


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And if the story is just too big to fit in one novel, we're just supposed not to tell it?


As others have said, there are ways of going about it. A big "Part 1" or "Episode 1" on the cover, for example, let's people know that it's part of a whole. But even then I'd argue there needs to be partial resolution. It's like bad chapter breaks in a complete novel.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

JRTomlin said:


> And if the story is just too big to fit in one novel, we're just supposed not to tell it?


of course you're supposed to tell it. and you chose how you want to tell it. as one long story, as a series of stand alone stories that tie together, or as a set of cliffhangers.

and no matter which way you do it, some people will be thrilled, some people will be tantalized, and some will be turned off.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> I can't use _Hunger Games_ as an example since I didn't like it and didn't finish the first book. But I maintain that if you resolve the _central issue_, you're not writing a trilogy. You're writing a bunch of stand alone novels with the same characters.


Each book in a series has a central theme. Some books do not have a series theme, some do. Some start off with no series theme (lots of detective stories are like this) and then as the series grows, the character does too, so the series ends up with a central theme.

BUT - IF the series has a overarching theme, then the series should have BOTH a central issue or conflict in each book AND a central issue or conflict which spans all the books. Each book in a series (if you're doing the arc across all books) has to resolve the most pressing issue on that particular book.

If it doesn't, it's a cliffhanger.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

JRTomlin said:


> And if the story is just too big to fit in one novel, we're just supposed not to tell it?


I'm just one reader, but I see a difference between a story arc that takes more than one book to tell and using cliffhangers at the end of the book to coerce me into buying the next book. In my favorite example, the Vane/Wimsey books by Sayers, the overall story is, will she agree to marry Wimsey? But each book doesn't end with her tied to the railroad tracks waiting for Wimsey to rescue her (my definition of cliffhanger); it ends with them solving a mystery together, and, in the first two books, with her refusing his proposal and him not accepting her refusal. I guess someone would consider that a cliffhanger. I do not.

Betsy


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

How dangerous are cliffhangers? I happen to have the answer. But I have to go away just now. Be back later.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Eric C said:


> How dangerous are cliffhangers? I happen to have the answer. But I have to go away just now. Be back later.


 

OK, that's it! I'm done with this thread!

LOL!


Betsy


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Let me be clear.

If you hang yourself off a cliff and you're not sure if you're going to be able to pull yourself back up, it's _very_ *dangerous*.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I'm just one reader, but I see a difference between a story arc that takes more than one book to tell and using cliffhangers at the end of the book to coerce me into buying the next book. In my favorite example, the Vane/Wimsey books by Sayers, the overall story is, will she agree to marry Wimsey? But each book doesn't end with her tied to the railroad tracks waiting for Wimsey to rescue her (my definition of cliffhanger); it ends with them solving a mystery together, and, in the first two books, with her refusing his proposal and him not accepting her refusal. I guess someone would consider that a cliffhanger. I do not.
> 
> Betsy


I suppose that is my point.

Some people in this thread are saying if you don't solve the _central problem_ that you've written a "cliffhanger" and I disagree. I suppose it does depend on one's definition of a cliffhanger. That the central problem is not solved is not my definition of that term--and I don't feel like untangling that syntax. I'll have another eggnog instead. 

ETA: There is some fully justifiable doubt that I will be sober between now and Christmas morning.


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## CEMartin2 (May 26, 2012)

Does the Empire Strikes Back's ending (Han in carbonite) count as a cliffhanger? I consider it to, even though the main story is resolved.


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## jvin248 (Jan 31, 2012)

.
My vampire trilogy has this issue. Big arc over the trilogy with smaller arcs for each book.
I took care of my concern by waiting to publish all three books at the same time. 
.
That way a reader can hop right into the next book.
You'll have set ups in the first book that don't hit punch-lines until the last and reviewers will call you out on the first book for it.
.


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## KVWitten (Apr 11, 2011)

CEMartin2 said:


> Does the Empire Strikes Back's ending (Han in carbonite) count as a cliffhanger? I consider it to, even though the main story is resolved.


No, I wouldn't consider it a cliffhanger but a major loose thread.

But I think major loose threads are expected in books/movies that are part of a series/trilogy. Going into it, moviegoers knew that 'Empire' was the second of three movies. If 'Empire' had been a stand-alone movie, I would not have been satisfied with the ending (Han encased in carbonite).


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Like me...it's on my TBR list.
> Maybe I'm too old, but I think of "The Perils of Pauline" when I think of cliffhangers...
> Betsy


Ditto 
That's exactly what cliffhangers make me think of.

Hating cliffhangers, I made sure the main story in my first book was resolved.
But ... then I changed my mind and took the last three or so chapters away and placed them on the next book. And I learnt the hard way that cliffhangers are dangerous. I lost 40 ranking points from goodreads and went from 4.7 to 4.3 on Amazon within a couple of months.

But I stand by the decision. It wasn't done to force readers to get the next book to find out what happened. It was done because getting to the end point introduced too much complexity. As it is, it still has a resolved ending - just not a very happy one. And if you're reading something with horror elements, my thought is that you shouldn't expect a HEA.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Anya said:


> Ditto
> That's exactly what cliffhangers make me think of.
> 
> Hating cliffhangers, I made sure the main story in my first book was resolved.
> ...


I almost did this in my third book - I had her all screwed up and I was going to end it there. But I decided to add in the first part of the next book instead. I'm glad I did. My story does not promise a HEA in any way, but I predict people would not have loved it if I ended it that way.

And now I'm about to do the very same thing in book four - only this time there' s no denouement to ease the reader's mind. I feel it needs to be this way so I'm sticking to my guns. She does complete her task for this story and I figure by book four people are in it till the end. They can wait it out for the last book. Plus, I decided to release a novella between books four and five, so that will help.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I ended Amulet 2 with a cliffhanger, and most people seemed to enjoy it.

However, that was over two years ago, and now they're lining up with pitchforks at my door, demanding to know when Amulet 3 is coming. 

I'll get to it.  I promise.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

I think a cliffhanger is fine when it's a weekly TV show or in the golden age of movies when people went to the movies weekly and see warm-up serials. They even worked well in weekly magazines and daily newspapers way back in the day.

But a book is a different animal and I wouldn't want to wait months for the next book because the book I just read left him/her hanging by a thread over the Grand Canyon. Ending there would piss me off--it would be better for it to end with a resolve and the hint of something wicked coming soon. In the next book.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

I *have* to have a cliffhanger at the end of my first book - there's no way to avoid it because of what happens - the second book picks up with the very next sentence, so that mitigates it a little.

And, as I release as a serial, I'm going to make sure I have the first part of book two up the same day as the end of book one - so people can go straight into it if they want.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

jackz4000 said:


> I think a cliffhanger is fine when it's a weekly TV show or in the golden age of movies when people went to the movies weekly and see warm-up serials. They even worked well in weekly magazines and daily newspapers way back in the day.
> 
> But a book is a different animal and I wouldn't want to wait months for the next book because the book I just read left him/her hanging by a thread over the Grand Canyon. Ending there would p*ss me off--it would be better for it to end with a resolve and the hint of something wicked coming soon. In the next book.


There are different types of cliffhangers. One is stopping in the middle of the story and leaving the characters in a precarious situation.

Another is finishing the story, and then added another chapter that's kind of a 'what about this?" sort of deal, letting the readers know that there's more story to come. If you ever watched the old TV show Lost in Space, they worked this to perfection. Each episode would finish the story, then there'd be one last cliffhanger scene, introducing the next episode.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Rin said:


> And, as I release as a serial, I'm going to make sure I have the first part of book two up the same day as the end of book one - so people can go straight into it if they want.


This is what I did for my first book - no one cared in the least. It worked well.


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