# Fake Amazon reviewers from sites like Fiverr could end up in court MEGATHREAD (Merged)



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Interesting news.

http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/16/amazon-files-suit-against-individuals-offering-fake-product-reviews-on-fiverr-com/


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Good.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Oh, yeah, saw that link on FB today as well. 

Interesting for sure. I wonder how big the explosion will be if Amazon gets Fiverr to release more information than just usernames, and Amazon can link them to author accounts who purchased reviews.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

I had the same reaction as Hsh. Good.


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

ebbrown said:


> Oh, yeah, saw that link on FB today as well.
> 
> Interesting for sure. I wonder how big the explosion will be if Amazon gets Fiverr to release more information than just usernames, and Amazon can link them to author accounts who purchased reviews.


I'd be more interested to see how aggressive Amazon will be after they make the link. Will they just take down the reviews? Or will they go to the extent of taking down the book or even the author account?
Seems to me that the Zon is very intent on removing all malpractices on their website. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually tried to do the latter.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately.  Small claims court at best.  They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them.  All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

About time.   

Sort of related, but I had someone email me a few weeks ago about some kind of Fiverr review thing. I thought they were trying to get me to buy reviews and I told them I like to get my reviews organically. After sending that reply, I re-read her email, and now I think I was approached as a reviewer, not an author. I think they were simply finding reviewers in specific genres and sending authors lists of these reviewers. Still glad I said no because I'm just a casual reviewer of books I read for my own pleasure, but I'm glad to see it wasn't actually someone offering paid reviews.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

mshistory said:


> I had the same reaction as Hsh. Good.


While I think it is an excellent thing, but I will be happier when they also start following their own ToC and removing fake one star reviews as well. If someone leaves a negative review on your book because you live alone with your dogs or they don't like your genre, it should also be removed.


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## North Star Plotting (Jul 11, 2015)

thewitt said:


> The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately. Small claims court at best. They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them. All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


I'm inclined to agree, unfortunately. It may affect these individual sellers, a long time in the future, if they ever get enough information to identify them and go after them. But in the larger scope of things, it's not going to change much of the practice of buying fake reviews, unfortunately.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

Kind of related, but where does Amazon stand on people who write reviews based on your sample? I have a two star that someone wrote based on my sample, and even if Amazon would take it down, it's probably not worth the effort to me. It's my lowest review on that book, and I really don't care about it. It's fine, really; I'm just curious, mostly.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

thewitt said:


> The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately. Small claims court at best. They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them. All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


This.

Also, review systems will always be easy to game. I can hire a Romanian programmer this afternoon to create hundreds of new Amazon accounts by tomorrow. Then, hire people at Upwork, Guru or (oddly enough) mTurk to post reviews.

Banning accounts for fake reviews is obviously a good thing. But it's the equivalent of plugging a hole in the bottom of your sailboat while your sailing partner is firing his gun at the floor.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

mshistory said:


> I had the same reaction as Hsh. Good.


It's an entirely selfish good, I'm afraid. When I see other people getting reviews really easily, and I can't, I know sometimes I'm slightly tempted to look at ways of getting reviews...and a lot of those ways seem to be illegal.

I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?  

I'm NOT saying people who get lots of reviews cheat, I just sometimes feel really discouraged and wish there was a way *I* could get lots of reviews.

But knowing that Amazon is going after illegal reviews will help me not be tempted by this egregious violation of their TOC, that it seems like they were just ignoring for so long. It makes me really sad when they let people get away with breaking the rules so flagrantly...

Sorry if that was a little TOO honest!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

HSh said:


> How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?


It varies.

Some folks build their mailing lists and encourage their subscribers to review their new releases using various incentives. Others hire companies whose sole purpose is to launch new books. These companies charge anywhere from $500 to $10,000 for a single launch. Their services are usually reserved for authors who sell products on their sites with higher price points.

Still others call Ridley Scott and convince him to option their books for the silver screen.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

I wonder how long before reviews are scrapped entirely.  As a reader, they have completely lost their value to me with all the gaming that goes on.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

M M said:


> I wonder how long before reviews are scrapped entirely. As a reader, they have completely lost their value to me with all the gaming that goes on.


I would think the vast majority of readers are completely unaware that any "gaming" goes on at all.


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## over and out (Sep 9, 2011)

Sadly, you are probably right.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Doglover said:


> ... If someone leaves a negative review on your book because you live alone with your dogs ...


The weasel-dog and the stinky beagle are telling me to go leave you a five-star review right now.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

HSh said:


> It's an entirely selfish good, I'm afraid. When I see other people getting reviews really easily, and I can't, I know sometimes I'm slightly tempted to look at ways of getting reviews...and a lot of those ways seem to be illegal.
> 
> I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?
> 
> I'm NOT saying people who get lots of reviews cheat, I just sometimes feel really discouraged and wish there was a way *I* could get lots of reviews.


In a lot of cases, it's really just a numbers game. The book of mine with the most reviews (160some) has _a lot_ of (free) copies in circulation. It's hard to say how many, because it's been distributed in boxed sets, and I don't know the download numbers for those, but my guess would be upwards of a million.



thewitt said:


> The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately. Small claims court at best. They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them. All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


But the Fiverr users who run these review schemes will still have to spend the time and money to defend themselves in court, assuming they live in the U.S. Knowing you may well get sued could prove to be a deterrent to these services because getting sued is a huge hassle, even if you win.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

callan said:


> The weasel-dog and the stinky beagle are telling me to go leave you a five-star review right now.


That would be very welcome. My big bear would appreciate it also!

Funny thing is that until I started publishing, I had no idea there was such a thing as reviews for anything really. When I published my first book and looked on the product page, all excited you understand, I didn't know what these five stars were under the title. It made me feel all warm and tingly when I found out. I wonder how many other people are like that; not many I shouldn't think. I do tend to let life float over my head!


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## Seshenet (May 20, 2015)

Read about this in the Seattle Times this morning.

My friends and family had no idea that book reviews can be fake or bought. They're familiar with the problems with restaurant reviews or reviews of other businesses, for example.


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## bendanarama (Jul 25, 2015)

mshistory said:


> I had the same reaction as Hsh. Good.


Much agreed. Fake reviews of all kind are a blight.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> In a lot of cases, it's really just a numbers game. The book of mine with the most reviews (160some) has _a lot_ of (free) copies in circulation. It's hard to say how many, because it's been distributed in boxed sets, and I don't know the download numbers for those, but my guess would be upwards of a million.


Exactly. The bigger your readership, the easier it is to get reviews. But you also have to actively cultivate a relationship with that readership. Very few people go to the trouble of leaving reviews just because they liked or didn't like a book but if they become fans, they are much more likely to do it.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> But the Fiverr users who run these review schemes will still have to spend the time and money to defend themselves in court, assuming they live in the U.S. Knowing you may well get sued could prove to be a deterrent to these services because getting sued is a huge hassle, even if you win.


Not for $5

No court will even entertain a lawsuit for $5. Amazon will have to show significant damages first.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## TheBehrg (Sep 18, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Banning accounts for fake reviews is obviously a good thing. But it's the equivalent of plugging a hole in the bottom of your sailboat while your sailing partner is firing his gun at the floor.


It's one of the inherent problems with any "ratings & review" system. I agree, it won't have long term effects as people who are trying to game a system will always find a (short-term) way to do it, but hopefully it makes some authors think twice about using a service like that. For anyone interested in a career in writing however, it's all about the long game and honest work.

Loved your metaphor btw.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

thewitt said:


> The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately. Small claims court at best. They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them. All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


Isn't Fiverr set up in another country? If so, can the courts even force them to do anything?
I edited to say I just checked it out. They're based out of Israel. Good luck getting jack from them, Amazon.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> In a lot of cases, it's really just a numbers game. The book of mine with the most reviews (160some) has _a lot_ of (free) copies in circulation. It's hard to say how many, because it's been distributed in boxed sets, and I don't know the download numbers for those, but my guess would be upwards of a million.


That's how my most reviewed book got most of its reviews. I think over four years or so, I've given away at least a quarter of a million books. I tried telling a friend who is an author that in reality, the review count is really low, considering. However, Amazon gets a larger share of reviews even though the book is permafree and has had at least 55,000 downloads on other sites as well. (even more, actually because it's been free on BN before, but that was before we had numbers for them.) What I wish is that more of those readers would then go on to review the next books in the series. They sell fairly well, but can go months between reviews.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Kylo Ren said:


> Kind of related, but where does Amazon stand on people who write reviews based on your sample? I have a two star that someone wrote based on my sample, and even if Amazon would take it down, it's probably not worth the effort to me. It's my lowest review on that book, and I really don't care about it. It's fine, really; I'm just curious, mostly.


As a reader, I see those as legitimate. The reviewer tried to read the book but decided that it wasn't for them for one reason or another and, presumably, the review explains why. That's useful to me as a prospective customer. If they say it has multiple typos or grammar errors, I want to know that. If it says, "OMG they killed the family dog brutally in the first few pages", I want to know that! If it says, "It's billed as a romance but starts more like a mystery", I want to know that. The first two comments will probably cause me to pass, but the final one may have me taking another look. 

I, myself, have a handful (or more) of books I started this year that I couldn't finish for one reason or another. Some I gave up on pretty quick, some I stuck out to 30, 40, or even 50%. I still wrote a brief 'review' for myself on GR and shelved them as DNF. I don't post reviews on Amazon, but would have no problem with a person who did so under the same circumstances.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I think I might be the only author that wishes Amazon spent the time, energy, and money somewhere else? Sham reviews have never been an issue for me as a reader, I can TELL when a review is crappy, it's ambiguous, and the reviewer will have a very clear pattern. Just like all of the gushing 5-star reviews don't really help me either. ::shrug:: 

Buying reviews or inflating sales figures by buying copies at select "reporting" stores is nothing new. I think fixing the crazy categorization of some books and perhaps expanding some hot genres to a top 200 or 500 list for readers might be a better use of time. Oh and give jane Austen her own category since Bill Shakespeare has one. And we sell more books than the Bard's variations.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Just a heads up for those struggling with reviews - we're all probably familiar with putting the review ask in the back of the book (which helps dramatically in and of itself), but if you make it the ONLY thing back there, and right after the story's end, you get dramatically different results. Not on a separate page, but the same page. 

You do have to sacrifice sell-through/newsletter signups, since you'll only have the one call-to-action. This is painful whenever I think about doing it, but the truth is, the more stuff you have in the back matter, the lower your numbers for everything - sellthrough, reviews, signups - *generally* will be, since the reader is likely to get overwhelmed by choice. 

If you have 50 - 100+ reviews (depending on genre) I would probably make something else the focus of my back matter, though, since there's diminishing returns after that point for each additional one.

Nick


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## TonyU (Dec 14, 2014)

As a consumer, reviews for books, movies, etc. don't mean a thing to me. Art is subjective so I frankly don't care what someone else thought. I don't read movie reviews from professional critics for the same reason. I like to make up my own mind and it's disappointing so many consumers are apparently happy to let others do their thinking for them.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think I might be the only author that wishes Amazon spent the time, energy, and money somewhere else? Sham reviews have never been an issue for me as a reader, I can TELL when a review is crappy, it's ambiguous, and the reviewer will have a very clear pattern. Just like all of the gushing 5-star reviews don't really help me either. ::shrug::


Nope you're not alone. It strikes me as public relations effort more than anything else. People are losing faith in the integrity of internet based reviews, so Amazon makes a big public gesture. Faith in Amazon's reviews restored. I don't think they are really going to bother suing small time operators. If anything they already have a few of the biggest offenders in their sights - and they'll make a public show of going after them.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## MarkTH (Mar 18, 2015)

HSh said:


> It's an entirely selfish good, I'm afraid. When I see other people getting reviews really easily, and I can't, I know sometimes I'm slightly tempted to look at ways of getting reviews...and a lot of those ways seem to be illegal.
> 
> I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?
> 
> ...


All I can say is, mailing list. If they liked your book good enough to get on the list, hopefully they like your writing enough to give you a review. I've got about a ten percent rate from my mailing list. My permafree, with about 15,000 downloads has 103.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

HSh said:


> I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?


By selling thousands of copies.

I talked with one author here, who got hundreds of reviews in the first week. I asked him how he managed to get so many reviews. For him, it was simple, he was a well known writer on an online forum, and was very popular there. So when he published, he told all of his followers. Who all bought his book, like it, and rated it. 
Because these people were used to commenting on his works in the forum, they were comfortable with writing him a review on Amazon.
(I did buy the book myself, because I wanted to see if it was a scam, and it was actually rather good. I ended up leaving a good review myself.)

It also helps if you ask your readers to write a review, I've gone from one out of a couple of hundred of readers leaving a review, to about one out of about fifty. Though some genre's are better than others about leaving reviews.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

Kylo Ren said:


> I would think the vast majority of readers are completely unaware that any "gaming" goes on at all.


Agree! Even though I know all reviews are not honest I cannot help to glance at reviews before purchasing a book, and I have often been swayed in my decision by those reviews.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

vanstry said:


> By selling thousands of copies.
> 
> I talked with one author here, who got hundreds of reviews in the first week. I asked him how he managed to get so many reviews. For him, it was simple, he was a well known writer on an online forum, and was very popular there. So when he published, he told all of his followers. Who all bought his book, like it, and rated it.
> Because these people were used to commenting on his works in the forum, they were comfortable with
> ...


Agree. Mailing list, Facebook and post a message at the back of your book asking readers to please leave a review as it means a lot to you.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

It's not about the money for Amazon, it is about sending a message. Losing accounts and having your ISP blocked will be a serious consequence for those selling and buying fake reviews.

I do think it's ironic that as much as writers complain about reviews, when Amazon does something about it all they get is flack.

Also, Amazon is doing something about miscategorization, for example, in case anyone has missed it. They've been bumping a lot of books from romance and other categories into erotica. Whether they belonged there or not. It's been a nightmare for some authors, causing lost sales and lots of time spent going back and forth with Amazon to get their books put right.

Amazon tends to fix things with a hammer, when a dab of glue or quick sanding would work better.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I suspect that part of what Amazon is trying to do with this is to shut down the easy routes for people to get fake reviews.  

I'm in the "don't do anything behind the scenes that you wouldn't want people to know about" camp, so this won't affect me.  However (along with most Kboarders), I'm probably a lot better researched in terms of the self-publishing market than the average self-publisher is - and Fiverr and Warrior Forum type dodgy-business would be the two main routes that I would be aware of for people who want to do this sort of thing.

If Amazon can shut down the more obvious sources of fake reviews, then they'll slash the scope of the problem.  Yes, I'm sure that there will be people who find ways to continue doing it, but for most it would be too much trouble.


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

HSh said:


> It's an entirely selfish good, I'm afraid. When I see other people getting reviews really easily, and I can't, I know sometimes I'm slightly tempted to look at ways of getting reviews...and a lot of those ways seem to be illegal.
> 
> I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?
> 
> ...


1. Book review tours
2. Keep in contact with those bloggers and offer them new books when you have one out
3. Encourage people on your email list/social media accounts to leave reviews. Entice them by offering them the opportunity to be on your ARC list if they leave a review.

There is really no great science or magic to getting reviews. If you do none of the things from above, you'll grow your review number at a snail's pace. Only about 1 in 200 ppl leave reviews (for paid books; for free ones i think it's 1 in 1000).

I get 100 reviews for a new release in about a month maximum. I have NEVER bought reviews. Plenty of those people you mention get hundreds of reviews upon release have worked their butt off to get those reviews. Believing them to be dishonest is really only harming yourself (e.g. You believe that only dishonest authors get a lot of reviews).

There IS a way for you to get reviews. Follow the advice in this thread.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

RomanceAuthor said:


> I get 100 reviews for a new release in about a month maximum. I have NEVER bought reviews. Plenty of those people you mention get hundreds of reviews upon release have worked their butt off to get those reviews. Believing them to be dishonest is really only harming yourself (e.g. You believe that only dishonest authors get a lot of reviews).
> 
> There IS a way for you to get reviews. Follow the advice in this thread.


Links to your books please


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

thewitt said:


> Links to your books please


I'm anon here  But really, there are a lot of writers who publish with a lot of reviews right out of the gate. Take Mark Dawson and Rosalind James (both active here on keyboards) as an example. They have reviews within hours of publishing.

Also, not that it'S easier to get reviews in some genres (e.g. romance) than others, simply because there are more bloggers reviewing certain genres.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

RomanceAuthor said:


> I'm anon here  But really, there are a lot of writers who publish with a lot of reviews right out of the gate. Take Mark Dawson as an example.


Which of course makes it very difficult to put any value on your advice. Sorry.

I know how Mark gets hundreds of reviews the first few days of his book release, and it's all about his mailing list and his advance readers. It's a brilliant strategy I will be deploying with my next book. I've spent the last 7 months and thousand of dollars building up my mailing list for exactly this purpose.

He has shared his "secrets" both openly here and in his private FB groups and for that I am eternally grateful.

I've looked at hundreds of books on Amazon to try to gauge things like effectiveness of review "bursts" over organic growth with regards to ranking and Amazon promotions.

Verifiable methods from successful authors are very interesting to me. Anecdotal or anonymous reports, not so much.

There is one anonymous poster here who claims to earn six figures a month and yet refuses to post any links to his books. When I look back thru his posting history, there are so many posts where he contradicts himself, he has convinced me he's never written a single book...

That is the beauty of the Internet however. Anyone can be an expert in anything they wish, even if they are simply posting from their mom's basement in their underwear.

There are plenty of credible authors here with links to their books giving good advice however, so I applaud them their support of the community.

I am positive that reviews skew buying behavior, and that even more than ranking may help readers make a choice. It's not a review that will put your book in front of a potential reader however, that's ranking, Amazon promotion, and your own advertising. Without that, reviews will never be seen and have little to no value.


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

thewitt said:


> Which of course makes it very difficult to put any value on your advice. Sorry.


I have found plenty of very good advice from anon posters on kboards. 
Sorry you find my advice has no value. Hopefully it can help others.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

thewitt said:


> Which of course makes it very difficult to put any value on your advice. Sorry.


Just want to point out that members are allowed to post anonymously here and, of course, members reading posts are entitled to consider that in weighing advice given. However, members should not feel pressured to reveal their identity and should also continue to provide advice. I trust our membership as a whole to provide feedback to any advice given to aid others in evaluation of said advice.

Just sayin'. Don't want to derail the thread.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Cookie Monster (Apr 6, 2014)

RomanceAuthor said:


> 1. Book review tours
> 2. Keep in contact with those bloggers and offer them new books when you have one out
> 3. Encourage people on your email list/social media accounts to leave reviews. Entice them by offering them the opportunity to be on your ARC list if they leave a review.
> 
> ...


You can also book a NetGalley slot or use LibraryThing giveaways. The reviews from NetGalley can skew lower, but occasionally your book might get picked up by a reviewer with a following, so that's nice.

RomanceAuthor, your advice is valid and good. It's quite normal to use review tours to get more reviews on a book, and not shady at all. The effectiveness of review tours will vary by tour company and genre, so it's good to do research before booking. If you do get reviews from the tour, adding people to an ARC list is great, if you can do that.


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## Maria Romana (Jun 7, 2010)

Urban Mogul said:


> Nope you're not alone. It strikes me as public relations effort more than anything else. People are losing faith in the integrity of internet based reviews, so Amazon makes a big public gesture. Faith in Amazon's reviews restored. I don't think they are really going to bother suing small time operators. If anything they already have a few of the biggest offenders in their sights - and they'll make a public show of going after them.


Oh, that makes total sense. I wondered why they were bothering to go after such small-time operators, who are mostly in other countries anyway. Now that you mention it, of course that's what it is -- they're trying to act like they care whether reviews are honest, when they've proven time and again that they don't. By going after people who can't or won't fight back, they'll make it look they've "cleaned up" without really doing anything.

And I, too, am one of those who thinks Amazon's efforts could be much better spent elsewhere. Maybe there are people out there who aren't suspicious of all internet reviews at this point, but there won't be for much longer.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

TonyU said:


> As a consumer, reviews for books, movies, etc. don't mean a thing to me. Art is subjective so I frankly don't care what someone else thought. I don't read movie reviews from professional critics for the same reason. I like to make up my own mind and it's disappointing so many consumers are apparently happy to let others do their thinking for them.


I read reviews. I do my own thinking. I like to see other people's opinions but that doesn't mean I blindly follow. Some of us really are capable of listening to others while still thinking for ourselves. It's not that rare.


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## John Van Stry (May 25, 2011)

thewitt said:


> Which of course makes it very difficult to put any value on your advice. Sorry.


There have been problems on some of the Indy Writer boards over the years with some people who would attack those who are successful, rather than try and emulate them. It's why most people don't talk about their sales numbers if they're doing well, why some people go anon, and why some people no longer post here or on other sites. Yes there are people here who also make stuff up, but after a while, you kind of figure out who they are.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Maria Romana said:


> Oh, that makes total sense. I wondered why they were bothering to go after such small-time operators, who are mostly in other countries anyway. Now that you mention it, of course that's what it is -- they're trying to act like they care whether reviews are honest, when they've proven time and again that they don't. By going after people who can't or won't fight back, they'll make it look they've "cleaned up" without really doing anything.
> 
> And I, too, am one of those who thinks Amazon's efforts could be much better spent elsewhere. Maybe there are people out there who aren't suspicious of all internet reviews at this point, but there won't be for much longer.


That's so discouraging! :-( Here I thought maybe they really cared about changing things....


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Thanks to everyone who gave advice about getting reviews. It's clearly somethign I need to learn more about and put in the work to develop contacts and maybe try blog tours if I want to do it. I've always been terrified at the thought of hunting for and contacting bloggers and reviewers (like, almost to the point of having a panic attack) but maybe there's more I could work on... :-/



RomanceAuthor said:


> Plenty of those people you mention get hundreds of reviews upon release have worked their butt off to get those reviews. Believing them to be dishonest is really only harming yourself (e.g. You believe that only dishonest authors get a lot of reviews).


I kind of said I didn't think that??


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

HSh said:


> Thanks to everyone who gave advice about getting reviews. It's clearly somethign I need to learn more about and put in the work to develop contacts and maybe try blog tours if I want to do it. I've always been terrified at the thought of hunting for and contacting bloggers and reviewers (like, almost to the point of having a panic attack) but maybe there's more I could work on... :-/
> 
> I kind of said I didn't think that??


I don't even know what a "Blog Tour" is.


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## Redgum (Mar 12, 2015)

Hi All

I just found this article and wondered what the view here was. My opinion is that this is good news, because as an honest person who waited weeks to get his first review (which was 5 stars, yay!) there's something really nasty about paying people to write your good reviews. I wonder though if the same sort of recourse to the law should be available against an even nastier species - the 1 Star Sock Puppets?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11939070/Amazon-sues-more-than-1000-people-over-fake-reviews.html


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## Soothesayer (Oct 19, 2012)

"...unique IP addresses"

Zero chance Amazon can sue ANYONE, let alone black hatters, if they mask the IP address. Never mind that a lot of these outfits aren't based in the USA.


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## Redgum (Mar 12, 2015)

Soothesayer said:


> "...unique IP addresses"
> 
> Zero chance Amazon can sue ANYONE, let alone black hatters, if they mask the IP address. Never mind that a lot of these outfits aren't based in the USA.


That's what I was thinking, but why make such a public intention over it in that case? Intimidating people to stop?


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

HSh said:


> That's so discouraging! :-( Here I thought maybe they really cared about changing things....


Don't be discouraged. There are lots of opinions and just because some are of the opinion that Amazon doesn't care about such things doesn't mean they don't.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

RomanceAuthor said:


> Plenty of those people you mention get hundreds of reviews upon release have worked their butt off to get those reviews. Believing them to be dishonest is really only harming yourself (e.g. You believe that only dishonest authors get a lot of reviews).


Heather was very careful to say that she wasn't accusing anyone of cheating. She was (very honestly, and I admire her for it) admitting that when she sees other people doing a better job of it, she sometimes kinda sorta wants to cheat HERSELF. I thought it was a helpful statement.

ETA: Sorry, Hollis, for some reason I got you confused with Heather!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

There is already a topic on this: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,224198.0/topicseen.html


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

Alondo said:


> I don't even know what a "Blog Tour" is.


A blog tour is similar to doing a book tour, except you (the author) hops from blog to blog to drum up publicity for your book. Each blog you "visit" is considered a stop. Depending on the blog, they may have you do an interview, a guest post, they may review your book (these usually have to be booked much further out), or it may just be a promo post. Some do specialized blasts like cover reveals as well. Often tours include a giveaway that all the blog readers can participate in, though some do a per blog on.

There are various services that help coordinate blog tours, with varying degrees of quality. If considering one, I'd thoroughly research any touring company to see what their policies are on blogs that don't do their stops or who do "bad" stops (like wrong cover, incorrect posts, etc).


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## SamuelStokes (Oct 11, 2015)

thewitt said:


> Not for $5
> 
> No court will even entertain a lawsuit for $5. Amazon will have to show significant damages first.


Very much the case.

In reality cheap tricks don't really work in the long run. Connect with your readers, will trump any random purchased review in value long term.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

thewitt said:


> Which of course makes it very difficult to put any value on your advice. Sorry.


Nope.. don't blame him or her for not sharing books. Unfortunately, people have experienced things like a slew of one stars, having their books reported to Amazon, and other slimy tactics after they reported success.

You can either take good advice or leave it on the table. But no one should risk their livelihood and their writing career to prove a point. There used to a great writer who posted here. And his advice was solid. I also know for a fact he was legit (how is no one's business). But after attacks and people demanding he link to his books, he just stopped posting.

And that's how we lose good advice from the people that are doing well.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

"The problem with reviews" is that they are crap. They have basically no predictive value as to the future popularity of a book. Go poke around in the millon-ish ranked books. You'll see plenty with a dozen five star reviews. They are meaningless. 

A way that Amazon could fix that is to change the stars system to a ranking system. So say you have a new book in the "x" genre. To rank that book, you'd be asked to rank it in relationship to your previous purchases, preferably within genre. Say someone read and reviewed 100 books. The top book in their ranking would be scored a lot higher in terms of weighting than a person who only read and reviewed thee books, whose top book would only be in the 33 percentile, so that positive review / ranking wouldn't amount for as much.

That, and limiting reviewers to purchasers (no reviews on free downloads), would kill off a lot of the scammy ways to game the review system.


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## joyceharmon (May 21, 2012)

555aaa said:


> "The problem with reviews" is that they are crap. They have basically no predictive value as to the future popularity of a book.


I find reviews useful in one particular circumstance. I don't read reviews before I start a book because amateur reviews tend to be quite spoilerish. But - if I'm reading a book and it's a difficult slog, I'll go back to the book's Amazon page and check the lower reviews. If I see reviewers making the same negative comments that I'm experiencing, and tell me that it's not going to get better, I can abandon the read without wondering if I'm going to be missing something.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

joyceharmon said:


> I find reviews useful in one particular circumstance. I don't read reviews before I start a book because amateur reviews tend to be quite spoilerish. But - if I'm reading a book and it's a difficult slog, I'll go back to the book's Amazon page and check the lower reviews. If I see reviewers making the same negative comments that I'm experiencing, and tell me that it's not going to get better, I can abandon the read without wondering if I'm going to be missing something.


I agree that the negative reviews can be more useful, which is why there's an option to select those.

I went and looked at the 50 most recent books posted to ACX. The average star ranking is 4.54 of the books that have ratings, but the average sales rank is about 500,000 (these books are mostly new releases also). And the lowest average star rating book (3. is sales ranked at 700 in the Kindle store.

This suit probably isn't really pointed at the book biz but at consumer products however. There's apparently a scam where an Amazon seller (via their sellercentral account) creates fake shipping invoices to the fake reviewer so that they get listed as a verified purchaser.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

I wonder the same thing. I see so many other books with over 100. I bust my hump to get reviews from giveaways, blog posts, buyers, etc and the highest book review number I have is 43. I even did a free giveaway on a new novel that was standalone. Got 7000K downloads and still difficult to hit 50 reviews.

Meanwhile, my crowdfunding book has a one-star which is the first thing you see on the page because people commented that they reviewer seems to have a grudge against the author (me). All those comments keep that review front and center. I believe this person didn't review the book through a site where you have to rank people if they don't follow through. I gave her a 1-star because she didn't review the book after 2 months. She then turned around and gave me a 1-star on Amazon and called it a 'Pathetic excuse for a book."

That one star I believe has cost me book promotions from Robin Reads, BookSends and BookBub. (BTW: I have many 5-star reviews and several from well-known book sites for the same how-to book).

Amazon lets these vicious reviews stand, but goes after so-called fake reviews instead.



HSh said:


> It's an entirely selfish good, I'm afraid. When I see other people getting reviews really easily, and I can't, I know sometimes I'm slightly tempted to look at ways of getting reviews...and a lot of those ways seem to be illegal.
> 
> I believe in organic reviews. I do. I just wish they worked better. My best reviewed book ever has 49 reviews. That's AFTER a Bookbub ad, OK? How do some people get dozens (even hundreds) of reviews in the first fricken few *months* after release?
> 
> ...


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

When is the last time a fake book review caused serious injury or death? I say go after fake product reviews like vitamins, electronics, clothing, etc. Those reviews count more to the consumer and are used more to purchase high-end or expensive items. You download a crappy book with 5 stars... return it. No sweat. Write a real review. But you buy a GPS and it works for 31 days before it burns up, you're out hundreds.



Urban Mogul said:


> Nope you're not alone. It strikes me as public relations effort more than anything else. People are losing faith in the integrity of internet based reviews, so Amazon makes a big public gesture. Faith in Amazon's reviews restored. I don't think they are really going to bother suing small time operators. If anything they already have a few of the biggest offenders in their sights - and they'll make a public show of going after them.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Anma Natsu said:


> A blog tour is similar to doing a book tour, except you (the author) hops from blog to blog to drum up publicity for your book. Each blog you "visit" is considered a stop. Depending on the blog, they may have you do an interview, a guest post, they may review your book (these usually have to be booked much further out), or it may just be a promo post. Some do specialized blasts like cover reveals as well. Often tours include a giveaway that all the blog readers can participate in, though some do a per blog on.
> 
> There are various services that help coordinate blog tours, with varying degrees of quality. If considering one, I'd thoroughly research any touring company to see what their policies are on blogs that don't do their stops or who do "bad" stops (like wrong cover, incorrect posts, etc).


That's interesting because I researched blogs in my genre a while back. Of those that were open to new submissions, I couldn't find a single one that was prepared to accept self published authors. Unfortunately the old prejudices are still there, so I can understand people's frustration when it comes to getting their book legitimately reviewed.

I've also tried several marketing outfits in the past and they've all been a disappointment. Can anyone recommend one or two that are actually any good?


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2015)

It can be hard, unfortunately. In many cases, bloggers are not rejecting indies because of the old prejudices, though. Most I saw who explained why noted it was more due to having either too many requests to deal with, or being tired of dealing with too many indies who ignored their review policies, acted horribly negative to a less than perfect review, etc, that made them decide no more. :-/

IndieView has a list of a couple hundred indie friendly bloggers 

Midwest Book Review (indie friendly, but strongly prefers print copies) also has a list of reviewers, some of whom I found were also indie friendly.


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## Alondo (Aug 30, 2011)

Anma Natsu said:


> It can be hard, unfortunately. In many cases, bloggers are not rejecting indies because of the old prejudices, though. Most I saw who explained why noted it was more due to having either too many requests to deal with, or being tired of dealing with too many indies who ignored their review policies, acted horribly negative to a less than perfect review, etc, that made them decide no more. :-/
> 
> IndieView has a list of a couple hundred indie friendly bloggers
> 
> Midwest Book Review (indie friendly, but strongly prefers print copies) also has a list of reviewers, some of whom I found were also indie friendly.


Midwest already review my books, but a lot of the people on their list were no longer current when I checked it a little while ago. Maybe it needs updating?

I never heard of "Indieview", but I'll definitely check them out, thanks for the tip!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/16/amazon-files-suit-against-individuals-offering-fake-product-reviews-on-fiverr-com/

_Since its launch in June 1995, Amazon's reviews system has garnered over a hundred million reviews and ratings. Given its size and importance, Amazon has a team that handles the system full-time, and takes down fake reviews daily. The team even rolled out machine learning intelligence in June, which helps to surface more relevant, recent and trusted reviews, while also learning and adapting its behavior over time.

The April sting operation is only one example of how seriously the retailer takes the problem of fake reviews. Following the earlier case, websites selling reviews were shut down, listings were suspended, and sellers were banned.

Still, even a few fake reviews can damage a company's reputation.

"Honest and unbiased reviews allow customers to trust that they can shop with confidence on Amazon.com," the retailer explains in the court filing. "Amazon takes the credibility of its customer reviews very seriously."_


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't know why people seem to think this will be in small claims court, or not even allowed at all. Amazon isn't suing over the $5 it costs to hire a reviewer, they're suing for breach of contract and other issues, so it's the big court house. Amazon isn't run by stupid people. They know how to gather evidence to show financial harm, among other things. Someone at TPV listed about six or seven things Amazon could sue for.

Also, it seems this is more about product reviews other than books, and some sellers doing dirty deeds to compensate reviewers. If it helps with book reviews, that's awesome too, of course.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

I was doing some equities research (financial analyst by day/writer by night) and I saw this..


"Amazon.com has filed suit against hundreds of people it claims are publishing "false, misleading and inauthentic" reviews on its website.

The online retailer is pursuing legal action against 1,1114 unnamed defendants—whose real names are still unknown to the company—for creating false reviews for some products for sale. The action appears to be an extension of what the retailer did in April, when Amazon went after a group of websites who sold fake reviews.

"While we cannot comment on active litigation, we can clarify that this lawsuit is not against Fiverr, it is against individuals who are providing these reviews and undermining customer trust on Amazon," Amazon told CNBC in a statement.

"The vast majority of reviews on Amazon are authentic, helping millions of customers make informed buying decisions. And our goal is to make reviews as useful as possible for customers. We continue to use a number of mechanisms to detect and remove the small fraction of reviews that violate our guidelines," the online retailer said. "We terminate accounts that abuse the system and we take legal action. We are currently taking legal action against a number of individuals including many that are referred to in the complaint filed Friday."

Apparently this is big news...

Any comments?


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2015)

There's a couple of threads here about this already. May be worth reading if you're interested.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Merging several similar threads.  Sorry for any confusion.

Betsy


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2015)

This is not just a silly "breach of TOS" issue. The FTC requires disclosure of any paid endorsement. These reviews aren't just a violation of the TOS. They are a violation of federal law. Amazon has not only every right to go after these reviewers, they have an obligation to do so as it impacts their business. The FTC has been going after a lot of these services hard over the last few years, though most of their activity has been in the hospitality industry. I suspect Amazon sees this as a proactive way of getting in front of this BEFORE the FTC starts sniffing around. If Amazon can clean house on its own, it can protect its own interests. 

I don't know why anyone would think this was a simple small claims issue. These companies that sell reviews are trading on Amazon's brand (trademark issues), violating FTC law on disclosures, and manipulating Amazon's algorithms. This sort of thing puts buyers and sellers on notice that Amazon is paying attention.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I think people who bought reviews should be very worried about their accounts. In my old job, I have seen thousands of lawsuits and in order to subpoena the records of a company, the opposing company has to file a lawsuit. Amazon likely subpoenaed all records, including the names, book titles, and account information of those who paid for the reviews. By now, they already have that information.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This is not just a silly "breach of TOS" issue. The FTC requires disclosure of any paid endorsement. These reviews aren't just a violation of the TOS. They are a violation of federal law. Amazon has not only every right to go after these reviewers, they have an obligation to do so as it impacts their business. The FTC has been going after a lot of these services hard over the last few years, though most of their activity has been in the hospitality industry. I suspect Amazon sees this as a proactive way of getting in front of this BEFORE the FTC starts sniffing around. If Amazon can clean house on its own, it can protect its own interests.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would think this was a simple small claims issue. These companies that sell reviews are trading on Amazon's brand (trademark issues), violating FTC law on disclosures, and manipulating Amazon's algorithms. This sort of thing puts buyers and sellers on notice that Amazon is paying attention.


Such an excellent point that I hadn't considered. (The felony implications and why this is bigger than small claims)


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

Martitalbott said:


> I think people who bought reviews should be very worried about their accounts. In my old job, I have seen thousands of lawsuits and in order to subpoena the records of a company, the opposing company has to file a lawsuit. Amazon likely subpoenaed all records, including the names, book titles, and account information of those who paid for the reviews. By now, they already have that information.


I'm not very sure authors will get hit too hard. We've heard of previous fake review lawsuits by amazon (Plenty this year actually), and I don't recall any big shifts happening with the author accounts. However, I DO remember that many product sellers on Amazon got affected a ton. Taking that a step further, I'd say this fiverr lawsuit will probably affect the physical product sellers more compared to small revenue fry like KDP authors.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This is not just a silly "breach of TOS" issue. The FTC requires disclosure of any paid endorsement. These reviews aren't just a violation of the TOS. They are a violation of federal law. Amazon has not only every right to go after these reviewers, they have an obligation to do so as it impacts their business.
> I don't know why anyone would think this was a simple small claims issue. These companies that sell reviews are trading on Amazon's brand (trademark issues), violating FTC law on disclosures, and manipulating Amazon's algorithms. This sort of thing puts buyers and sellers on notice that Amazon is paying attention.


Thanks Julie.

We authors tend to be a myopic bunch. This isn't just about book reviews.. it's about product reviews too. This includes medical products (weight loss medicines, vitamins, supplements) and appliances. All of which are effected by advertising and trade laws.

I have to admit I thought it was just about books, until I re-read the article.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Another news piece:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/amazon-cracks-1000-alleged-fake-reviewers/story?id=34573129



Urban Mogul said:


> Thanks Julie.
> 
> We authors tend to be a myopic bunch. This isn't just about book reviews.. it's about product reviews too. This includes medical products (weight loss medicines, vitamins, supplements) and appliances. All of which are effected by advertising and trade laws.
> 
> I have to admit I thought it was just about books, until I re-read the article.


That's a good point, and pretty scary.  I must admit I really rely on reviews for things like vitamins!!


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Interesting article. I wonder if they will target authors next.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-sues-people-charge-5-130543207.html

It says authors might be liable to.


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## Jennifer R P (Oct 19, 2012)

I hope they're careful about making authors liable. Otherwise I could see somebody sneakily paying for a review on somebody ELSE'S book to get them in trouble.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2015)

There is a big thread on this here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,224198.0.html (so this one will probably be merged soon)


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

yeah merge them

By the way here is the actual documents

http://www.scribd.com/doc/285886679/Amazon-Complaint-Re-Reviews#scribd


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Funny part is the TRADITIONAL publishing companies have been doing this for years. Just in different ways.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

thewitt said:


> The law suit after the individual Fiverr providers is a farce, unfortunately. Small claims court at best. They will need to prove significant damages from each and every seller the way they went after them. All they can really hope for is that Fiverr is forced by the court to identify these people so their Amazon accounts can be closed.


I agree. can you imagine trying to TRACK down every single person. Get them to spill the beans lol. I don't think so. They will disappear into the night and Amazon will be left scratching their ass.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

It will be interesting to see how many LEGIT REVIEWS they remove from authors book in their attempt to WEED out what they think is not legit.

This is like Facebook and their brilliant idea to not show posts in the timeline to people who wanted to see them.

I think eventually they will charge authors to show reviews.

I think they are annoyed they didn't think of the service FIRST and now they want a piece of the pie 

Soon we will see FIVERR bought out by Amazon so they can get $5 a review


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Alondo said:


> I don't even know what a "Blog Tour" is.


It's like buying a cow at the market, except there is a very long line up.


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted


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## romanticauthor (Apr 17, 2014)

I read through the entire court filing. It's my belief that once they find out the real identities of the sellers they will go even further than that. In the court filing it says that Amazon wants to see their client lists. It will be a simple matter for them to track down the authors that purchased gigs for reviews and I wouldn't be surprised if they cancel out the author accounts that purchased these gigs citing their TOS. They will likely withhold any royalties still waiting to be paid, too, although this is just my opinion. The next several months should be interesting as the world follows this.


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

JLCarver said:


> To add to this, Amazon reportedly even hired some of these fake reviewers to post some product reviews, just so they could catch them actively breaking the rules. This was all over the news today. It's definitely a big deal, and not over a couple $5 reviews.
> 
> It was also announced in the news that these reviews break the law protecting consumers. Not sure how or what law in particular, and I imagine it's only in the US.


It's my understanding that these reviews affect every single product type on Amazon. I believe it gets really crazy when you start to wonder if medicines and other medical products all have fake reviews on them


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

romanticauthor said:


> I read through the entire court filing. It's my belief that once they find out the real identities of the sellers they will go even further than that. In the court filing it says that Amazon wants to see their client lists. It will be a simple matter for them to track down the authors that purchased gigs for reviews and I wouldn't be surprised if they cancel out the author accounts that purchased these gigs citing their TOS. They will likely withhold any royalties still waiting to be paid, too, although this is just my opinion. The next several months should be interesting as the world follows this.


Well, the only way Amazon can really track any buyers is by assuming that only the SELLER of a product will purchase fake reviews for it. Of course, this assumption makes total sense. But it also leave me totally free to hire a fake reviewer to post reviews of another author's book on Amazon, and make amazon shut him down due to the fake reviews. I do not know if Amazon will try to eradicate the fake-review client list by using a method that isn't decisive at all.


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## TonyWrites (Oct 1, 2013)

Oh man, what a mess.  I am glad I never tried fiverr for anything, because the site seems to have become a hotbed of scam artists.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I went and looked at Fiverr out of curiosity -- and there are still tons of people there offering reviews, which I found interesting -- but most of them don't even seem to speak English very well. How is Amazon going to force people in other countries to comply? I think it's interesting, don't get me wrong, and I will be curious to see it shake out. The problem is that paid reviews are only one problem. I would wager review exchanges make up for more false reviews on Amazon than paid reviews. Still, cleaning up the review system is a good idea.
On a side note, I laughed out loud by not one but three different guys on the first page offering "revenge" reviews. They ask things like: "Do you have an enemy?" "Do you want revenge?" "Do you just not like someone?" and offer one-star reviews. Will Amazon go after them, too?


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## cjglos (Sep 9, 2015)

Here's a comment from the UK press to add to the discussion from the Guardian no less:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/19/can-you-sue-amazon-reviewer-being-stupid-fake-stuart-heritage?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2


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## Roman (Jun 16, 2015)

kalel said:


> Funny part is the TRADITIONAL publishing companies have been doing this for years. Just in different ways.


Those Fiverr reviewers they are going after are probably only a small fish in the pond. The big fishes are all the companies who send gifts to the professional reviewers. They also send them Amazon gift cards to buy their products and these products receive verified 5 star reviews without being looked at. They are then resold for a profit 100 times higher than what the person on Fiverr earns.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2015)

Jennifer R P said:


> I hope they're careful about making authors liable. Otherwise I could see somebody sneakily paying for a review on somebody ELSE'S book to get them in trouble.


While I am not an Amazon fangirl, I also don't think Amazon is run by idiots. It would be an easy matter to see WHO paid for a service. Unless someone hacks your paypal account and uses it, I don't see this scenario happening. Particularly because they are building a court case. It does them no favors in court to not dot the i's and cross the t's.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2015)

TonyWrites said:


> Oh man, what a mess. I am glad I never tried fiverr for anything, because the site seems to have become a hotbed of scam artists.


The scam artists give Fiverr a bad name. There's plenty of good, honest sellers on Fiverr, and they don't deserve this reputation.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2015)

kalel said:


> Funny part is the TRADITIONAL publishing companies have been doing this for years. Just in different ways.


I hate this myth. I know it feeds the "anti-trade" cult but it is based on misinformation and complete misunderstandings of how the industry works.

SOME trade publishers, just like people in every industry, engage in unscrupulous behavior. That isn't in dispute. But your statement implies that ALL trade publishers are unscrupulous. That is about as accurate as saying all self-publishers buy reviews.

The fundamental issue at hand is transparency. As the FTC states, the issue is, and has always been, whether or not the average consumer would know that an endorsement is not organic. When someone sees a commercial, or a print ad, or a author blurb on the cover of another author's book, the average person understands that the endorsement was either paid for or that there is a relationship between the two parties. When a person sees a review in the New York Times, they don't suffer any delusion that the reviewer spontaneously bought the book all on his own and decided to publish a review. Having worked in the newspaper industry, even if a publisher buys an ad in a newspaper the editorial board would have no clue. Because the ad department sells millions of dollars in ads a year, and they don't actually communicate the customer list with editorial. (Which is why you can see the funny irony sometimes of an anti-WalMart news article on the same page as a WalMart sales ad.) When a publisher pays a service like NetGalley, they are not "buying" reviews. They are paying someone to administer their review program for them and deliver review copies to potential reviewers. There is no guarantee of a review or guarantee of a good review or guarantee that the review will be posted at specific places. The only "guarantee" is that the book will be made available to potential reviewers.

The problem is that with customer reviews, whether on Amazon or Yelp or anywhere else, is that the average consumer assumes those reviews are from actual customers who did business with the company or bought the product. This creates an implicit level of trust, as people tend to trust those whom they believe have similar experiences to them. Customer reviews are powerful precisely because the average person assumes they are NOT paid ads, but spontaneous comments from other normal people. These services aren't just selling ads; they are doing so in such a way as to manipulate consumer trust and trick people into thinking the reviews are from other normal people.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> The scam artists give Fiverr a bad name. There's plenty of good, honest sellers on Fiverr, and they don't deserve this reputation.


Agreed. I've use Fiverr for various stuff over the years and sold services on Fiverr as well.

Yes, there are scammers on Fiverr. There are scammers everywhere. But let's be honest: authors that buy reviews KNOW they are doing something wrong. How do you buy a review when they seller tells you they will post what you want them to right and buy the book so it looks like a verified purchase and NOT know you are engaging in unethical behavior? That is sort of like saying, "Why, no, I had NO IDEA this television those nice men wearing ski masks carried through the broken store window was actually stolen! I thought it was just a special deal." People buying these reviews are willfully engaging in unethical behavior themselves and shouldn't be treated as innocent parties in this.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> authors that buy reviews KNOW they are doing something wrong


Yes, they do. May they be shaking in their boots, wondering if their name will be on Amazon's naughty list this year.

Every business has its scammers, writing/publishing is no exception. It's up to us to vet our service providers and to police our own actions. If people wouldn't buy reviews, no one would be offering the service.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amazon would be nuts to go after individuals (fiverr providers, authors, etc.).

It's one thing to take down buyamazonreviews(dot)com* and make an example of them. That's good business. It's another thing entirely to target individuals.

First, there's too high a cost associated with doing so.

Second, it's too easy to look like Goliath strong-arming David. As authors, we might say "Yeah! Get 'em Amazon!" But consumers don't have that same perspective. They'll just see a giant corp going after the little guy.

Amazon should address the fake review system with the same approach Google took to address the "bought links" problem years ago: algorithmically. Forget the court system. Use the data. Clean the system. Move on to trouncing its competitors and changing how consumers live.





* In the soup Nazi's voice (from Seinfeld): "No link for you!"


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Don't know whether this has been mentioned, but I also read an article that said fake reviewers had been stealing people's identities from Facebook. Their profiles, including photographs, had been lifted from their Facebook pages  .


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Amazon would be nuts to go after individuals (fiverr providers, authors, etc.).


My recollection is that the Napster lawsuit didn't really get traction until they went after individual users. So I think they'd be nuts not to go after individual reviewers.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

555aaa said:


> My recollection is that the Napster lawsuit didn't really get traction until they went after individual users. So I think they'd be nuts not to go after individual reviewers.


I wasn't aware that Napster went after individuals. I thought the RIAA did that.

Admittedly, I'm ignorant on this matter. (I never used those sharing services and so the entire debacle never landed on my radar.) Do you happen to have a link that discusses Napster suing individuals? I couldn't find one with a quick Google search.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Amazon would be nuts to go after individuals (fiverr providers, authors, etc.).


I think you may be underestimating these scammers. Just because they use Fiverr doesn't make them little guys. Many of these guys are making serious bank. Fiverr is merely a platform to promote the service. Micro-scams make a lot of money. All you have to do is look at the gold farmers on a lot of MMOs that sell in-game currency for real money. Consider this: World of Warcraft has over 5.5 million subscribers. if only 1% of them buy gold from gold farmers, that is 55,000 players. The estimate is that the average "gold" purchase is $20 real money. Do the math. That is serious money. How many tens of thousands of indie authors are there? How many reviews do you think a review buyer buys? Just one? No, if you buy reviews you aren't just buying one. You are buying a dozen or more because otherwise what is the point? Even at $50 a customer, you only need ten customers a week to make decent money.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I think you may be underestimating these scammers. Just because they use Fiverr doesn't make them little guys. Many of these guys are making serious bank. Fiverr is merely a platform to promote the service. Micro-scams make a lot of money. All you have to do is look at the gold farmers on a lot of MMOs that sell in-game currency for real money. Consider this: World of Warcraft has over 5.5 million subscribers. if only 1% of them buy gold from gold farmers, that is 55,000 players. The estimate is that the average "gold" purchase is $20 real money. Do the math. That is serious money. How many tens of thousands of indie authors are there? How many reviews do you think a review buyer buys? Just one? No, if you buy reviews you aren't just buying one. You are buying a dozen or more because otherwise what is the point? Even at $50 a customer, you only need ten customers a week to make decent money.


I think you and I agree that there are a lot of fake reviews. I've never suggested otherwise.

My point is that litigation is very costly, both in terms of time and financial resources. That cost is unlikely to be reimbursed by judgement.

It would be far more efficient and cost-effective for Amazon to remove reviews algorithmically. Doing so would also help Amazon to build a framework that could address new platforms and tactics that surface to game its review system.


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> While I am not an Amazon fangirl, I also don't think Amazon is run by idiots. It would be an easy matter to see WHO paid for a service. Unless someone hacks your paypal account and uses it, I don't see this scenario happening. Particularly because they are building a court case. It does them no favors in court to not dot the i's and cross the t's.


It'd be an easy matter to do it for one individual. Now we know there are 1000 fiverr reviewers out there, all of who's details are not yet known (Fiverr users mainly use fake profiles apparently). Those reviewers have probably had about 300 customers on average in their lifetime. Do you think Amazon could pull up paypal details for each of those 300,000 people who purchased reviews?
I've mentioned this before, and I'll say this again. Amazon is intent on going after tangible product sellers who purchased reviews. I'd say the presence of fake reviews on things like medicines and medical appliances is much much more of a threat than a self-published ebook or book. As authors we forget to see that this is Amazon vs fake-reviews and not Amazon vs fake-ebook reviews. In the Amazon revenue sphere we are still just a small nurtured market. I wouldn't be surprised if all that happened was that the fake-reviews were removed, contrary to what other authors are saying about Amazon Accounts being banned.

As evidence I'll state the John Locke controversy which was a pretty big deal a few years ago. The Self-pubbed author allegedly admitted to purchasing hundreds of reviews for his eBooks. As of now, I can still see John Locke's author page on Amazon, and I still see all his books on there. There was no ban on his account, no deletion of his books. Nothing. When the famous "Million dollar Indie Author" himself has not been heavily attacked in the ways many people on this forum suggest, I do not see how small time authors will ever be of major concern to Amazon.


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## Dhayaa Anbajagane (Feb 23, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> I think you and I agree that there are a lot of fake reviews. I've never suggested otherwise.
> 
> My point is that litigation is very costly, both in terms of time and financial resources. That cost is unlikely to be reimbursed by judgement.
> 
> It would be far more efficient and cost-effective for Amazon to remove reviews algorithmically. Doing so would also help Amazon to build a framework that could address new platforms and tactics that surface to game its review system.


Even if there is an update, I believe a time will come when people tweak the updated system and create fake review services again. Maybe a thousand years into the future Amazon's algorithm would be so perfect all review services might get eradicated. But till then, I don't see these fake reviewers disappearing. They're just going to keep moving ship until all their hold-outs have been taken down.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Dhayaa Anbajagane said:


> Even if there is an update, I believe a time will come when people tweak the updated system and create fake review services again. Maybe a thousand years into the future Amazon's algorithm would be so perfect all review services might get eradicated. But till then, I don't see these fake reviewers disappearing. They're just going to keep moving ship until all their hold-outs have been taken down.


This.


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## thewitt (Dec 5, 2014)

So if Amazon bans accounts of successful authors who are proven to have bought reviews, do they also have to refund the purchases of all those books bought under false pretenses?


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Surely it's OK if the system is never perfect, but not OK if it's so easy and (seemingly) rewarding to use fake reviews.

It needs to be either harder, less rewarding, or more risky to engage in cheating.  There will always be scams; you want to make it unattractive and less easy for the casual person (i.e. someone who's not determined to do something they shouldn't, just tempted).


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> ETA: Sorry, Hollis, for some reason I got you confused with Heather!


No worries, as luck would have it, I'd just written about a character called Heather when you posted that!!


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> I wasn't aware that Napster went after individuals. I thought the RIAA did that.


Yep, I was wrong. It was the lawsuits related to Kazaa and the other peer-to-peer sharers where there were subpoenas to identify individual users.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?178616-5/music-file-sharing-lawsuits

above from 2003. Sort of interesting to remember that there was this public debate whether peer-to-peer filesharing should be legal. Sorry if this is getting off-thread.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

555aaa said:


> It was the lawsuits related to Kazaa and the other peer-to-peer sharers where there were subpoenas to identify individual users.
> 
> http://www.c-span.org/video/?178616-5/music-file-sharing-lawsuits
> 
> above from 2003. Sort of interesting to remember that there was this public debate whether peer-to-peer filesharing should be legal.


I remember that. I also remember Metallica going full metal jacket on Napster. That was interesting too. 

To all: I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a copy of Amazon's lawsuit if you care to read it:

http://www.citizen.org/documents/AmazonvDoes1to1114.pdf


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## DeanChalmers (Sep 19, 2015)

Dhayaa Anbajagane said:


> As evidence I'll state the John Locke controversy which was a pretty big deal a few years ago. The Self-pubbed author allegedly admitted to purchasing hundreds of reviews for his eBooks. As of now, I can still see John Locke's author page on Amazon, and I still see all his books on there. There was no ban on his account, no deletion of his books. Nothing. When the famous "Million dollar Indie Author" himself has not been heavily attacked in the ways many people on this forum suggest, I do not see how small time authors will ever be of major concern to Amazon.


Yeah I remember, didn't he tell the New York Times that he bought 300 reviews as part of his strategy? I'm sure there's a lot of big -name indies who have done this, not endorsing it but still... If amazon were to block authors they'd likely find some of their 'All Stars' on the naughty list.


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