# KU Scammers Attack Amazon's Free Ebook Charts & Flood New Release Lists



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Another great, informative, and frustrating article by David Gaughran with guest Phoenix Sullivan.

Sadly, we've seen this before.

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2016/04/15/ku-scammers-attack-amazons-free-ebook-charts/

eta: For info regarding the massive flood of scam books into the KU new release lists, keep reading.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

That's utterly infuriating.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Read that this morning. Completely frustrating.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

We were talking about the free list hijack over Easter weekend in another group. It's unbelievable. I think Amazon is going to drop the cap further for the KU page reads and possibly disallow bundling altogether in the next several months. I see them going the "one title" per book route. The crying we will hear then will be unbelievable. I'm actually all for that. I have some omnibuses but I think the best thing to do is drop the cap to 1,000 and make it so only single titles are allowed in KDP. Bundling the same books over and over again only hurts the store, so I think it's next to go.


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## mmandolin (Oct 16, 2014)

Like Phoenix and David point out, this stuff has been going on for _years_. This ain't 2012 anymore.

For it still to be happening on a large scale, in 2016, is


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

That's bad. But I said it before, we as reader can't find anything anymore in the sea of this scammy stuff. I don't even browse anymore on Amazon. 
I could spend an hour sifting through this stuff on both paid or free and have a hard time finding actual real books. 

Yesterday, I spend 3 minutes on my Voyage with the new recommendation engine on goodreads and found 5 books I want to read in that short time. You know how long it would have taken me to find 4 books browsing on Amazon?


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## Scottish Lass (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm a prawn, so it will make no difference to Amazon, but I'm pulling all my books out of KU because of the page bloat and _click here_ scammer tricks and falling page read reward. However I suspect I'm not the only one, and if enough decent authors leave, KU becomes less attractive for readers.

This is just another sad manifestation of the warrior forum-type tricks that makes me angry for honest authors that should have won all-star bonuses, or who spent $$$ on promotions only to have them hijacked by cowboys.

I think KU is turning into a bit of a farce. But how long will it take Amazon to realise that?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

This, right here:



> I want to be the vendor Amazon wants me to be--exclusive, smart about promoting, someone who drives legitimate traffic to their site, a money-maker for us and them, and a cheerleader for their services.
> 
> Why do they make it so hard?


We all feel you, Phoenix. For real.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Roz Marshall said:


> I'm a prawn, so it will make no difference to Amazon, but I'm pulling all my books out of KU because of the page bloat and _click here_ scammer tricks and falling page read reward. However I suspect I'm not the only one, and if enough decent authors leave, KU becomes less attractive for readers.


I unclicked all my Select renewal boxes, and emailed Jeff Bezos to tell him so. (Got the standard phone call then email reply from Executive Relations wanting to reach me but I'm done talking to them. It's just platitudes.) I said straight out in my email that I don't sell enough that it's going to matter to Amazon, but I won't play the game anymore.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Until authors leave KU in droves, Amazon won't do anything to stop this. 

But leaving KU is not an easy thing to do. Leaving KU means you instantly get a ranking kick-in-the-teeth, and then you spend months and months building traction on other sites. Meanwhile, it's money out of that author's pocket. Like I've said elsewhere today; KU authors are stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

I was going to put my next UF in KU in June, (do the whole 99c release week hoopla) but I'm sick of the KU BS. Why should decent, hard-working authors have to struggle against the mountains of scams and click-farms! 

Vote with your books. Go wide. If you're leaving the KDPS renewal button checked when your 90 days are up, you're telling Amazon you're happy with KU.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

The other trick I've seen is to unpublish a book, then republish a couple of days later. That retains rank and reviews, but resets the Select enrollment, so - another 5 free days.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I think we need to initiate a coordinated effort. We need to draft a single, uniform letter hitting these points. Then we have to send that uniform letter to Jeff B. A few dozen of these letters sent at the same time to the recipient is very effective. They dismiss us because we send one-off letters. It needs to be a unified effort stating this is unacceptable and we deserve a time line for when this will be addressed.


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## lisamaliga (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm glad David and Phoenix have taken the time to write this and highlight the tricks the scammers pull. Thanks to both of you and also thank you for including screen shots.

I'd written about this topic last year and some things haven't changed...
https://lisamaliga.wordpress.com/2015/04/19/dont-buy-or-borrow-kindle-unlimited-rip-off-ebooks


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I think we need to initiate a coordinated effort. We need to draft a single, uniform letter hitting these points. Then we have to send that uniform letter to Jeff B. A few dozen of these letters sent at the same time to the recipient is very effective. They dismiss us because we send one-off letters. It needs to be a unified effort stating this is unacceptable and we deserve a time line for when this will be addressed.


I report and send an email every time I see a blatant TOS violation. I've been called a snitch, a traitor, and saw my books/reviews attacked as a result (which is why they're not in my sig). I've been told to "mind my own business" and to "stop worrying about this and just write another book" (as though there aren't enough hours in the day to do both). Meanwhile, this situation has progressively worsened over the last 8-10 months (not that it wasn't bad before), and a fair number of those people who had snarky advice for me 4, 5, 8 months ago were wailing and moaning in the thread about David G's last article on Amazon scammers (the DK debacle).

I don't know when enough people will get on board to make a difference, but I do know that some of us have been fighting the fight all along.


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

I feel like we all need to get together and have some kind of Google Hangouts author meeting/summit on what to do about this issue. This is taking money out of our pockets and going directly to thieves.


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## C. E. Stocker (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm a total newbie at this--just published my first novel at the end of March, and put it in KU hoping it would at least help visibility. Along about the same time I was getting ready to publish, I decided to enroll in KU as a reader and see what the service was about.

I have to echo Atunah's experience with browsing--it's really been a disappointing experience as a reader trying to find books I'd like to download through KU. Aside from the Amazon imprints, which seem to ride the top of any of the separate trending lists, I find it almost impossible to just browse the actual category and find quality reads. 

I'm hoping they clear out all the scamming, for sure, because the customer experience seems pretty tarnished by it.


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)




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## BookwormT (Dec 4, 2015)

Atunah said:


> That's bad. But I said it before, we as reader can't find anything anymore in the sea of this scammy stuff. I don't even browse anymore on Amazon.
> I could spend an hour sifting through this stuff on both paid or free and have a hard time finding actual real books.
> 
> Yesterday, I spend 3 minutes on my Voyage with the new recommendation engine on goodreads and found 5 books I want to read in that short time. You know how long it would have taken me to find 4 books browsing on Amazon?


Yes! Same. As a reader, I used to go to Amazon to find books similar to ones I'd read or by browsing through their top lists, and now it's impossible to wade through all of the scam books that have zero to do with what I'm looking for. I'm buying a lot more books on my Kobo app because I can browse there without the glut of non-books.

As an author, I've ruled out launching my book in KU. I'd rather start wide and not alienate readers who prefer other platforms, but also, I don't think any bonus ranking pushes from KU will help people find my book if those lists are just crammed with scam books anyhow.


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

Where there's a market, there are thieves.

Just the way of the world, I guess. Sucks ass though. I'd bet in time Amazon will find a way to root out this crap. Create some text-scanning algorithim or some crap. Question is how long will it take, lol.

EP


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Okay. Maybe two simultaneous campaigns. One from readers. One from authors. One letter will be dismissed but a dozen or more letters sent to the top will be much harder to dismiss. It does not have to be a massive amount but just unified.


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

EvanPickering said:


> Where there's a market, there are thieves.
> 
> Just the way of the world, I guess. Sucks ass though. I'd bet in time Amazon will find a way to root out this crap. Create some text-scanning algorithim or some crap. Question is how long will it take, lol.
> 
> EP


Amazon won't bother until it's hurting their bottom line. Right now, the damage is being done to the authors, and Amazon doesn't notice or care. You can tell from the canned responses people get that this is not viewed as a priority.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Wow, that "To Kill a Mockingbird" example David mentioned was depressingly eye-popping.










They even copied the "Harperperennial Modern Classics" branding in their title stuffing. And that "analysis" book has a "Bestseller" badge and ranking very well.

One of the one-star reviews wrote that this "analysis" referred to Harper Lee as a man. Oy. Now that's an in-depth analysis.


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

Dragovian said:


> Amazon won't bother until it's hurting their bottom line. Right now, the damage is being done to the authors, and Amazon doesn't notice or care. You can tell from the canned responses people get that this is not viewed as a priority.


Of course they care.

I think amazon is smart enough to know anything that hurts their brand or credibility is a threat worth addressing. Obviously, I'm not on the inside, but this is pretty high quality most of the uber-successful companies take very seriously (apple, google, and amazon too.)

It will hurt their bottom line if KU authors leave and go wide, causing the program to eventually sink. They've poured countless millions into KU in the hopes that it will eventually become the gold standard, I imagine. Scammers is not something they will brush off. It's a cancer that will balloon out of control if not fixed, and they know that.

I have nothing to gain by defending amazon. If KU submerges it'll just give me a reason to go wide, which I figure will happen eventually anyway. I'm just saying that looking at this objectively, a company like Amazon will not stand by and be robbed. (realistically, yes its "our" money being taken out of the pool, but it's Amazon's money that was put there to keep US here. If the page read cost drops down to like .003 people will leave in droves and they know it.)

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
EP


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## PermaStudent (Apr 21, 2015)

Dragovian said:


> Amazon won't bother until it's hurting their bottom line. Right now, the damage is being done to the authors, and Amazon doesn't notice or care. You can tell from the canned responses people get that this is not viewed as a priority.


Yup. In the grand scheme, I don't think complaining indie authors are that numerous, and we aren't a priority.

If their subscription service starts getting a bad reputation with *customers* because of all the "best selling" scam in their lists and search, they'll probably react faster. Is anyone here really good at creating viral memes showcasing this type of farce? (I joke. Kind of.)


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## mmandolin (Oct 16, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Wow, that "To Kill a Mockingbird" example David mentioned was depressingly eye-popping.
> 
> They even copied the "Harperperennial Modern Classics" branding in their title stuffing. And that "analysis" book has a "Bestseller" badge and ranking very well.
> 
> One of the one-star reviews wrote that this "analysis" referred to Harper Lee as a man. Oy. Now that's an in-depth analysis.


Gotta love Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2XZOSA41BVOUO/


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

It would be better if readers complained about 'reader dissatisfaction' and 'poor reader experience' as readers seem to be Amazon's customers rather than authors.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

mmandolin said:


> Gotta love Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2XZOSA41BVOUO/


That's the one!

Looks like Amazon finally pulled the trigger on that one! Dave's post must have driven enough people to it that finally got Amazon's attention.










Only 999,999 more to go.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Looks like Amazon finally pulled the trigger on that one! Dave's post must have driven enough people to it that finally got Amazon's attention.


Or they read Kboards.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Or they read Kboards.


Yup. It's much more like the "author" pulled it to avoid bad-user-experience complaints. They just need to wait a week for no one to care anymore and relist it. I'm pretty sure this is regular operating procedure for all the scammers. It's tough to complain about a book that isn't listed.

The most jaw-dropping thing to me is that Amazon isn't banning accounts. Just collect, billing ID, bank ID, social security, email address, and possibly other factors and ban all of those from ever opening a KDP account again. The numbers would seriously dwindle.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes, it's gotten worse and Amazon shows very little interest in fixing their system. Targeted marketing is what sells books. Build up your email list.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

We're talking about the free charts here and he's pointing at non-fiction books.

It's so easy to get tens of thousands of downloads on free books during their promo period. How does he know that the whoever owns these books didn't pump a lot of advertising dollars into it? I guarantee I could get a free non-fiction book to this level if I pumped a few thousands bucks of advertising into it. I don't waste time with freebies and don't do non-fiction anymore, but I know it's quite possible without any sort of scams.

I'd like to know how they are getting their books to the top before pointing the fingers. If it's a scam, they are cheating to get more free downloads. Was that answered somewhere or did I miss it? It's late where I'm at and I'm tired... haha


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Domino Finn said:


> Yup. It's much more like the "author" pulled it to avoid bad-user-experience complaints. They just need to wait a week for no one to care anymore and relist it. I'm pretty sure this is regular operating procedure for all the scammers. It's tough to complain about a book that isn't listed.
> 
> The most jaw-dropping thing to me is that Amazon isn't banning accounts. Just collect, billing ID, bank ID, social security, email address, and possibly other factors and ban all of those from ever opening a KDP account again. The numbers would seriously dwindle.


Does that wipe out all the one-star reviews that had been posted warning others?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

AuthorX said:


> We're talking about the free charts here and he's pointing at non-fiction books.
> 
> It's so easy to get tens of thousands of downloads on free books during their promo period. How does he know that the whoever owns these books didn't pump a lot of advertising dollars into it? I guarantee I could get a free non-fiction book to this level if I pumped a few thousands bucks of advertising into it. I don't waste time with freebies and don't do non-fiction anymore, but I know it's quite possible without any sort of scams.
> 
> I'd like to know how they are getting their books to the top before pointing the fingers. If it's a scam, they are cheating to get more free downloads. Was that answered somewhere or did I miss it? It's late where I'm at and I'm tired... haha


Yes, it was answered. You missed it.


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## farrago (Oct 29, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I think we need to initiate a coordinated effort. We need to draft a single, uniform letter hitting these points. Then we have to send that uniform letter to Jeff B. A few dozen of these letters sent at the same time to the recipient is very effective. They dismiss us because we send one-off letters. It needs to be a unified effort stating this is unacceptable and we deserve a time line for when this will be addressed.


What you suggest is sensible. Another is to send snail mail because one may not simply hit the forward button to a staffer down the line. My books are in Select and I'm not moving them. But I am suggesting 3rd parties get involved. The scammers undercut Phoenix Sullivan's entire Bookbub campaign. And that puts the onus on the author to decide if snagging a Bookbub, and perhaps having the ill-fortune to promote on a day the scammers are pushing a block of units--is worth the risk and $$$. We have to see a Return on Investment when we promote with Bookbub. Otherwise why submit?


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid here, but what benefit to these scammers gain by providing their book for free on promotion? It's not like they're getting paid for pages read if the book was taken for free, correct? And whatever limelight attention they do receive drops off like a rock as soon as the free gig is up. Then apart from being complete twits, what do they gain exactly?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

AA2014 said:


> Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid here, but what benefit to these scammers gain by providing their book for free on promotion? It's not like they're getting paid for pages read if the book was taken for free, correct? And whatever limelight attention they do receive drops off like a rock as soon as the free gig is up. Then apart from being complete twits, what do they gain exactly?


No, you can get borrows on free books.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

*UPDATE!*

I just spot-checked most of the 22 books involved in the Easter freebie scam event. The titles are no longer searchable by ASIN. The product pages are not 404'd, but the pages are reachable only by direct link (so you have to know the ASIN to discover them). And they carry a "This title is not currently available for purchase" note on their product pages. Most of the author pages appear to be down, and where one author page is still up, the suspect freebie is not on the page.



AA2014 said:


> Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid here, but what benefit to these scammers gain by providing their book for free on promotion? It's not like they're getting paid for pages read if the book was taken for free, correct? And whatever limelight attention they do receive drops off like a rock as soon as the free gig is up. Then apart from being complete twits, what do they gain exactly?


The #1 freebie that day wound up returning to the PAID ranks at around #1100. It's possible the authors had another network of KU folk lined up to borrow the book so that would happen. As a comparison, our freebie returned to paid at around a #4000 rank, which bettered a bit afterward due to its visibility.

The other thing is that freebies weight 1/10 of a sale in the poplist rankings, which feed the KU search results. So 30K downloads is the equivalent of 3000 sales in those lists. And because the authors price them $2.99+, the titles don't get punished by carrying a 99c price (price _is_ a factor in the poplists, but NOT the bestseller lists). So in smaller cats, that's #1 -- or at least first page visibility -- for KU borrowers for at least the next 30 days.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

Some of the rhetoric in this article I find distasteful.



> When those gamers steal visibility, they are *stealing profits* from others, pure and simple.





> More power to the *underdog books* that come out of nowhere to grab a top spot on any list.





> The two books that hit just outside the list suffered even more from not getting *deserved visibility*.





> by those 22 books that *didn't belong*.


And then this gem:



> break through the *BookBub wall* -- ranks #1 through #12 or so


At least now we know what role Bookbub really plays in the whole self-publishing scheme. They keep the riff-raff out, don't they? Perhaps indie publishing isn't the meritocracy some claim, but is rather yet another opportunity for the favored few, who compete only with each other to see who gets the window seat in first class?

One gets the impression some authors consider Amazon to be their personal playground and further consider other authors to be not quite Ivy League enough. It would certainly explain the general candor and reputation this site has.

But let's take a look at KDP from the other side of the railroad tracks, shall we? A fellow author of mine has two books on Amazon. They are both part of the same series and therefore they share at least one title between them. One is in KDP Select. The other isn't.

If you search for the title those two books share, the one in KDP Select shows up in the search results. The other doesn't.

Make of that what you will.

Sincerely,

The Underdogs who "don't belong."

P.S.



> don't get *punished* by carrying a 99c price


Amazon punishes books that have a 99c price? One wonders if this knowledge was gained organically or just before a wink. Apparently only some authors get the secret decoder rings. One of the perks of being part of the club, no doubt.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Does that wipe out all the one-star reviews that had been posted warning others?


Republishing doesn't wipe reviews unless you start fresh with a new ASIN.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

The scammers are playing the keyword game with the free books. That's why they end up very high in the rankings after the free run. Here is the proof: http://www.shorttask.com/tasks.php


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

justphil said:


> Amazon punishes books that have a 99c price? One wonders if this knowledge was gained organically or just before a wink. Apparently only some authors get the secret decoder rings. One of the perks of being part of the club, no doubt.


Phoenix and several others figured out that the pop lists are weighted for price. They also figured out how much free downloads count for and how rapidly the algorithm drops old sales. They did this work years ago by intensive numbers-crunching. They shared their discovery with the Kboards community at the time. If you go back to threads from 2012, you'll find the info, though as I recall, it's a bit spread out. So, yeah, there's a "club." You join it by reading Kboards or other groups where indie authors share information and work collaboratively.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> Yes, it was answered. You missed it.


I went to sleep and woke up refreshed. Now that I have reread the entire article again, I do not see anywhere that he detailed how they are doing this.

The only thing he pointed out that might be giving them additional visibility in the free charts is keyword stuffing. But that has been going on for years and there are thousands upon thousands of keyword stuffed books that don't make it anywhere near the top ranks. All of his other points had nothing to do with the free charts, but rather how scammers gain more money when their book is set back to paid.

So I will ask again... Does anyone know how these people are cheating to the top of the free charts, aside from keyword stuffing, because keyword stuffing alone is not some silver bullet that's going to rank you to the top of the kindle charts. Anyone can create a cookbook and advertise it for free on social media and get into the top 100 with or without keyword stuffing. A company with a big enough wallet can rocket 25 non-fic books into that category through brute force advertising... without cheating.

Do I think that the owners of those books pumped a lot of advertising dollars to get to that spot? Probably not, but maybe. But how can I judge? Unless there is a definitive answer on how they are gaming their to the top of the charts, I'm not sure how he's calling foul (aside from complaining about the existing keyword stuffing problem).

And if I missed the part where to method to get to to get to the top of the free charts again, forgive me.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

AuthorX said:


> Do I think that the owners of those books pumped a lot of advertising dollars to get to that spot? Probably not, but maybe. But how can I judge? Unless there is a definitive answer on how they are gaming their to the top of the charts, I'm not sure how he's calling foul (aside from complaining about the existing keyword stuffing problem).
> 
> And if I missed the part where to method to get to to get to the top of the free charts again, forgive me.


They're using click farms.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

AuthorX said:


> So I will ask again... Does anyone know how these people are cheating to the top of the free charts....


What don't you understand about this: http://www.shorttask.com/task.php?id=395762 Here are more: http://www.shorttask.com/tasks.php

Title: download FREE book on Amazon
Requester: Mia Fin Reward: 0.16
Duration: 8 minutes Tasks Available: 10
Want to work on this task?

Instructions: * NOTE: YOU ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THIS TASK IF YOU ALREADY DOWNLOADED THIS BOOK PREVIOUSLY!

Download this FREE book on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WUOEPVY/keywords=cold+calling (    Notice that they use keywords in the link, which puts this book very high in Amazon's search engine and will make the scammer a lot of money after the book goes back to paid. This is against TOS)

You must submit PROOF (a Screenshot of your purchase, including the Amazon Order Number) before paid.

IMPORTANT: Shorttask informed me that their "upload" function is not working. So for now, until this is fixed, please upload your screenshots onto a free image upload website and send me the url link.

PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS WEBSITE (It doesn't work reliably): www.imagesup.net 
Instead, try this website (or any other website that does work): postimg.org

Notes:

* Orders with a "pending" status will not be accepted

* Word doc files will not be accepted (images only please)

---When I first saw this ad there were more than 50 tasks offered.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

AuthorX said:


> I went to sleep and woke up refreshed. Now that I have reread the entire article again, I do not see anywhere that he detailed how they are doing this.
> 
> The only thing he pointed out that might be giving them additional visibility in the free charts is keyword stuffing. But that has been going on for years and there are thousands upon thousands of keyword stuffed books that don't make it anywhere near the top ranks. All of his other points had nothing to do with the free charts, but rather how scammers gain more money when their book is set back to paid.
> 
> ...


What Lydniz said. It's reasonable that you wouldn't recognize Phoenix's allusion if you weren't here for the FBS thread. That's what she's referencing here:



> I'd seen this before periodically. A handful of freebies appearing high on the list out of nowhere, usually gone in 24-36 hours, most likely the result of click-farmed downloads. One such service was guinea-pigged and analyzed on KBoards here, and users were subsequently admonished by Amazon and advised not to use them again as noted here.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks Becca... I did not read the FBS thread.

I am surprised that any sort of click farming or downloading sites still exist. I thought Amazon had pulled the plug on that a long time ago, especially since they are so good at identifying borrow exchanges, etc.... If they are so far behind that people can still click farm, then meh. There's some serious issues on their end.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

AuthorX said:


> Thanks Becca... I did not read the FBS thread.
> 
> I am surprised that any sort of click farming or downloading sites still exist. I thought Amazon had pulled the plug on that a long time ago, especially since they are so good at identifying borrow exchanges, etc.... If they are so far behind that people can still click farm, then meh. There's some serious issues on their end.


Yeah, you said it. Big time.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

justphil said:


> Some of the rhetoric in this article I find distasteful.
> ...
> One gets the impression some authors consider Amazon to be their personal playground and further consider other authors to be not quite Ivy League enough. It would certainly explain the general candor and reputation this site has.
> ...
> ...


If you're scamming your way through with Google-translated text filled with content ripped off of others and copyrighted images used without permission, then I make NO apology for saying your titles don't belong. If those _aren't_ the types of titles you publish, then my rhetoric isn't directed at you and yours.



> Amazon punishes books that have a 99c price? One wonders if this knowledge was gained organically or just before a wink. Apparently only some authors get the secret decoder rings. One of the perks of being part of the club, no doubt.


Becca did a nice job of giving you the key to the club (thank you, Becca !). Here's also a long, detailed post filled with all the maths that I secretly posted to my public blog back in 2012 (and followed with a secret discussion here on KB as well).

http://phoenixsullivan.blogspot.com/2012/08/just-how-do-those-amazon-algos-work.html


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

drno said:


> What don't you understand about this: http://www.shorttask.com/task.php?id=395762
> 
> Title: download FREE book on Amazon
> ...
> ---When I first saw this ad there were more than 50 tasks offered.


Right. And this is just *one* such work site.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> We were talking about the free list hijack over Easter weekend in another group. It's unbelievable. I think Amazon is going to drop the cap further for the KU page reads and possibly disallow bundling altogether in the next several months. I see them going the "one title" per book route. The crying we will hear then will be unbelievable. I'm actually all for that. I have some omnibuses but I think the best thing to do is drop the cap to 1,000 and make it so only single titles are allowed in KDP. Bundling the same books over and over again only hurts the store, so I think it's next to go.


I agree I could see them taking drastic steps. If they don't stop bundling altogether then they might drop it to 2k pages or even 1500. I guess the problem we will see that is thousands of 1500 word books popping up that have zero content in them.

What I would love to do is have Amazon go after some of the scammers in court if they were paid out, and take that money back. The last thing they want though is how people scammed them on the public record. So the other option is to be aggressive in hiring people to review books, and bundles to make sure they are legitimate and not violating rules.

I think they will get it sorted out I just hope they do it sooner rather than later. I'd hate to see the scammers getting paid.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

Domino Finn said:


> Yup. It's much more like the "author" pulled it to avoid bad-user-experience complaints. They just need to wait a week for no one to care anymore and relist it. I'm pretty sure this is regular operating procedure for all the scammers. It's tough to complain about a book that isn't listed.
> 
> The most jaw-dropping thing to me is that Amazon isn't banning accounts. Just collect, billing ID, bank ID, social security, email address, and possibly other factors and ban all of those from ever opening a KDP account again. The numbers would seriously dwindle.


I can't agree with this enough. you have to register our account with a TIN or SSN. If you were stealing money from my company I would ban you. Depending on the severity of the crime it could be permanent.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm an author who bundles, but I'd love to see them ban bundling from Kindle Unlimited.

If you want to bundle, go for it... But a bundle really has no place being enrolled in KU. If a Kindle Unlimited subscriber wanted all 10 books of a 10 book bundle, let them borrow all 10. It costs them nothing.

Perhaps they could make an exception for a single author series that is part of the same story. But even isn't really necessary... Let them checkout the whole series if it's in KU.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

BookwormT said:


> As an author, I've ruled out launching my book in KU. I'd rather start wide and not alienate readers who prefer other platforms, but also, I don't think any bonus ranking pushes from KU will help people find my book if those lists are just crammed with scam books anyhow.


This describes my feelings/thoughts exactly. I was in KU with two western romance shorts that I ended up taking down because that genre is filled to the brim with these scam books. I'll be starting wide with my fantasy series in May and do think it's for the best. There's no point in participating in a program with so many problems and it won't hurt me financially since I'm a newbie. Who I worry for are the established authors doing well in KU. On one hand, their readership is strong which supports visibiity, but on the other how will all of this end up/affect them eventually?

And far as being a reader in KU goes, I cancelled my subscription ages ago. Amazon's prices are still the best, so I look up books on Goodreads and find them on Amazon that way. It really sucks that this is happening because I enjoyed browsing through Amazon's pages of books. It was like my virtual bookstore except I made the coffee at home.

It's in Amazon's best interest to take care of this problem and I do believe that they will. It might take longer than we all wish to see it done, but I think Amazon has customer interests at the core of their business and with enough customers complaining about this, then KU will get redone somehow. Maybe I'm being too optimistic but they've got a good thing going with ebooks and by letting these scammers continue to take advantage of their system, Amazon has placed their good name in jeopardy. It's lame for readers but authors/publishers are struggling with doing righteous business, too. Everyone loses except the scammers. It pisses me off because nothing aggravates me more than lazy people who take advantage of others but still benefit from others' hard work.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Slight derail regarding ebook lists. I used to use the Amazon recommendation engine (the old scroll sideways one) to find books. I rarely used the main chart lists, but if I like a book, I DO still click on the top 100 categories shown on the sales page. So if the book is #67 in Psychics or something, I'll click the Psychics part of the link and look for more authors in the same area.

I tend to buy tons of audio now, and hardly any kindle. I don't use the new version of recommendations (tile version) on Amazon at all. I LOVE the homepage sideways scrollers on Audible. I always check every single one of them, before I use the drop down menu for "coming soon" and "just released" titles.

/END OF DERAIL


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Im not sure what the article is complaining about?

When i read it, it sounded as if the author expected to be in the top 100 for free but found out that there were others ahead of her? 

Is this a problem because the ones ahead were in the wrong category? If so i can see that being a problem but if its just because other books were ahead and she had done advertising. That's called competition. Everyone has a right to be in the top 100. 

So can someone clarify what the problem was in this article as it was confusing to me.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

I don't get it, either. What are the scammers gaining from high ranks in the free books list?


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

I fail to see the problem too. If it is wrong cats or ripped off, badly bundled books, fine...otherwise there isn't much you can do about the competition. Just write better and more books.
As for ethically bundling, I don't want to see an end to that. Bundles can offer value, the same way box set movies do.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Because you still get borrows even when your book is free. They don't make money from the sales, they make money from the borrows. If anything, the fact they have invaded the free list gives me the impression that the paid Top 100 was becoming too crowded with other scamlets that they weren't able to stand out.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

The word "scam" is used too liberally on KBoards. Worse, it incites a mob mentality and encourages a sense of collective entitlement.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Because you still get borrows even when your book is free. They don't make money from the sales, they make money from the borrows. If anything, the fact they have invaded the free list gives me the impression that the paid Top 100 was becoming too crowded with other scamlets that they weren't able to stand out.


How can a book be both free and in KU? I thought price matching from other vendors was the only way to get a 'free' book on Amazon.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

As someone mentioned, you get five days in KU. If you unpublish then republish, you can re-enroll and get another five days.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Oh! I get it.

That unpublish / republish exploit needs to get fixed.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> I fail to see the problem. Just write better and more books.


Seriously? Given the quality of the scam 'books' under discussion, your post is better written! No legitimate author can combat wide scale fraud with 'better and more books'.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

If anyone is still wondering how these scammers accomplish what they're doing, Ann Christy does an excellent job of explaining the mechanism on her blog. It's well worth a read.

http://www.annchristy.com/


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Great post, Phoenix. Thank you.


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

Andrew Murray said:


> I fail to see the problem too. If it is wrong cats or ripped off, badly bundled books, fine...otherwise there isn't much you can do about the competition. Just write better and more books.
> As for ethically bundling, I don't want to see an end to that. Bundles can offer value, the same way box set movies do.


It's not really about competition. The problem is Amazon's own loopholes in KU like getting 5 days to change your mind and being able to put a book right back in. You should have to wait 90 days to re-enter. Any book on a loop of going in and out should be looked at with actual eyes. Things like this not only create an arena for scammers to thrive and muddy Amazon's own storefront to the point readers can't find legit books, but it also takes visibility and money away from authors who actually wrote their books and did not stuff them with copyrighted junk just to make bank on the profit-sharing pool. This not only effects authors but the customer's experience, which Amazon is definitely concerned about. If people can't find what they want to read, they will go elsewhere. Scammers will always exist, but KU gives them a platform to do it, and Amazon always tries to stop a gush with a few whacks or Band-Aids after the fact. It took almost a year for them to catch on that people were exploiting read counts with click-to-the-end links and that was only because other authors pointed it out. Instead of fixing the problem from their end, they smashed down on authors who put their TOC in back for a better Look Inside.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Andrew Murray said:


> I fail to see the problem too. If it is wrong cats or ripped off, badly bundled books, fine...otherwise there isn't much you can do about the competition. Just write better and more books.
> As for ethically bundling, I don't want to see an end to that. Bundles can offer value, the same way box set movies do.


If you don't understand how scam books filling the top 100 slots would affect books that would otherwise be in those spots, you probably need to think it through again. It doesn't matter how good your book is if there are 30 books pushing it out of the top 100 that are only there because somebody's paying a click farm.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> Great post, Phoenix. Thank you.


This ^


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

KaiW said:


> Seriously? Given the quality of the scam 'books' under discussion, your post is better written! No legitimate author can combat wide scale fraud with 'better and more books'.


So, do you think I should publish my comment!  Make a million!!!


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Moist_Tissue said:


> As someone mentioned, you get five days in KU. If you unpublish then republish, you can re-enroll and get another five days.


This isn't true. You unpublish a book and it still says you are enrolled in Select. So when you repub, the days already used are gone.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> This isn't true. You unpublish a book and it still says you are enrolled in Select. So when you repub, the days already used are gone.


I've never unpublished a book myself, but I've seen people use their 5 days, unpublish, republish and immediately get 5 more days.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

I did on a short. I did it to correct some grammar. And when I repubbed it, it took off the free days I already used. Just my experience.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

This is a different issue, but if anyone wants to see a raft of scam books, check out the KU new release lists for the last few weeks. Romance, Fantasy, SciFi - thousands of scam books (look like Google translations gone mad) have been uploaded. Thousands.

I'm sure Amazon is on top of it. :|

eta: Here's just one page of hundreds of examples in multiple categories.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_pg_97?rh=n%3A283155%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A25%2Cn%3A16190%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_n_publication_date%3A1250226011%2Cp_n_feature_twenty_browse-bin%3A13054657011&page=57&bbn=16190&sort=date-desc-rank&unfiltered=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1460832033


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

I can't see anything untoward Monique...give a link to the ones you think are scams.
I see a lot of romance but they all look fine.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> I can't see anything untoward Monique...give a link to the ones you think are scams.
> I see a lot of romance but they all look fine.


Are you even kidding right now? I can't figure out if you're just stirring the pot or genuinely obtuse.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Andrew Murray said:


> I can't see anything untoward Monique...give a link to the ones you think are scams.
> I see a lot of romance but they all look fine.


That's a fantasy list and every single book on that page is a scam.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Ahhh, you just posted it. Some very ugly covers and horrid grammar! Makes my brain hurt. 
Ha, I guess Amazon's quality control let these fly. But, these are not ranking. How do we know they are selling?


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

The blurbs read as if they'd been written by this Microsoft AI thing.
Surely Amazon will be forced to do something about this to preserve their own brand, if nothing else.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

SevenDays said:


> Are you even kidding right now? I can't figure out if you're just stirring the pot or genuinely obtuse.


There is no need to be so incredibly rude! I was looking in the wrong place until Monique kindly put a link amendment in her comment.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> There is no need to be so incredibly rude! I was looking in the wrong place until Monique kindly put a link amendment in her comment.


Sorry! Her link was there when I saw it, so I figured you did, too.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

cecilia_writer said:


> The blurbs read as if they'd been written by this Microsoft AI thing.
> Surely Amazon will be forced to do something about this to preserve their own brand, if nothing else.


Yeah, I thought that too.
Weird.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Andrew Murray said:


> I did on a short. I did it to correct some grammar. And when I repubbed it, it took off the free days I already used. Just my experience.


Ah, OK. Then I don't know how the scammers are doing it.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

SevenDays said:


> Sorry! Her link was there when I saw it, so I figured you did, too.


That's fine, but please refrain from personal attacks like that in the future. Believe it or not I HATE scammers! All I am doing is trying to understand all the facts.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Those books are all just a week old, some are much more recent. They might simply be playing a volume game and hope to catch some page reads from suckers. They might replace these books down the line and add links. They might have some other plan. Or they might let them sit for a bit then systematically use a KU click farm rotating through thousands of books. Bots "read" the books and the scammers make a pretty penny off KU and take away from legit authors. Lots of ways they could make a pretty penny of this.

eta: Meanwhile they completely gum up the new release lists and make Amazon look like a place filled with junk because that's what it's become.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

*He fingers had been pinned in direction of the wall upon possibly facet of his brain&#8230;*

This is a choice line from one of those books. And it is one of the better ones. The books are also long novels.

WOW!

This is bad.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Looks like they're using something like this:

http://synonymizer.com.ar/examples/index.htm


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

Andrew Murray said:


> I can't see anything untoward Monique...give a link to the ones you think are scams.
> I see a lot of romance but they all look fine.


I recognize some of those titles as coming from a random title generator I like to play with. Pretty sure I've had "Bedouin in the Ashes" come up at least once.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't know what the source is for these texts, but after reading the first paragraph of one of them I suspect they're taken from classic texts and run through a synonym generator to make them look unique. This is a technique that used to be used by shady SEOs as a way to fool the search engines some years ago. I can't remember the last time I saw something like that in Google or Yahoo's search results.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm particularly fond of the subtitle, "Any book of fiction, and this fiction so full"

It's almost existential.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

If all these books are breezing past the people at Amazon who are supposed to be checking uploads, it raises the legitimate question if the screeners are 1) getting kickbacks from the scammers, or 2) are the scammers themselves, and are using their inner knowledge of the system to make a lot of money.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Andrew Murray said:


> I did on a short. I did it to correct some grammar. And when I repubbed it, it took off the free days I already used. Just my experience.


Because when you republished it, it kept the same ASIN. When the scammers republish their KU eBooks, they intentionally get a new ASIN. A new eBook in Amazon's KU system with no history gets up to 5 free days or up to 7 Kindle Countdown days for the next 90-day enrollment period.

Use up 5 free days, unpublish, rinse, and repeat.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Gator said:


> Because when you republished it, it kept the same ASIN. When the scammers republish their KU eBooks, they intentionally get a new ASIN. A new eBook in Amazon's KU system with no history gets up to 5 free days or up to 7 Kindle Countdown days for the next 90-day enrollment period.
> 
> Use up 5 free days, unpublish, rinse, and repeat.


Ah, fair enough


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Riffing off what Monique is speculating, let's put some real-world numbers to how a black hatter could rock this. Elsewhere, Monique posited the following:
10,000 scambooks
300 pages each
50 click farmers

With those guidelines and how much folk are advertising as click prices, this could be the potential profit:
10,000 books x 300 pages x 50 farmers x $.0048 per page = $720,000
10,000 books x 50 farmers x a nickel per click payment = $25,000
50 farmers x $9.99 for a month of KU each = $500

$720,000 gross - ($25,000 + $500 expenses) = *$694,500 profit*

However, under that scenario, each farmer working 8 hours per day, 20 days per week would have to download and click to the end of a book and return it once every minute. So that's an unlikely pace. But *$500K per month profit isn't out of the question*.

If you pay those same 50 farmers $1 to create and upload a book every 10 minutes, that's 200 books per farmer, taking about a week altogether and costing $10,000.

So say between $35-40K in overall expenses compared to about* half a mil in profit*.

Look at those numbers, and think about this, which is what I just replied to someone on The Passive Guy who mentioned the early fears about the tsunami of crap taking over Amazon and pointed out that consumers know the difference between scambooks and legit books:

*The difference is these books are not targeted to real consumers. The sophisticated black hat publishers make the majority of their money from a closed system. Many of them aren't even chasing real readers except as a by-product. *But they are sharing monies and taking visibility from non-scam books. Crap normally falls in a healthy ecosystem. Keeping that crap artificially elevated is a burden on readers who have to sift at the top now instead of simply ignoring the dredge on the bottom. Consumers will turn to discovering books outside of Amazon, Amazon will not keep consumers onsite as long as they do now since they'll be spending time discovering elsewhere, and Amazon ads will lose money.


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## Mxz (Jan 17, 2015)

Thank you for this article!  Amazon needs to get on this because I've heard, in some reading clubs and sites that bring together readers, a lot people complain about not being able to find books on Amazon anymore when the subject comes up.  A few even said that they don't trust new authors and they'll stick to the authors they know.  I think it's because they are getting burned by these scams.  

The scams harm everyone because all the readers are not aware that scammers exist (decrease the trust in self-published books and new authors),  they take up positions on the top 100 and do so in genres not related to their books (decrease our visibility & annoy the readers), clog up the new releases section (little visibility there, especially in romance),  and they annoy readers when they've taken up so much of their time shifting through books.  I know my books aren't going to be suggested on other sites because I'm newer.  At least Amazon can disable tagging into certain genres like they did for the new adult section.  So I guess it's a good time to be a promoter.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> *The difference is these books are not targeted to real consumers. The sophisticated black hat publishers make the majority of their money from a closed system. Many of them aren't even chasing real readers except as a by-product. *But they are sharing monies and taking visibility from non-scam books. Crap normally falls in a healthy ecosystem. Keeping that crap artificially elevated is a burden on readers who have to sift at the top now instead of simply ignoring the dredge on the bottom. Consumers will turn to discovering books outside of Amazon, Amazon will not keep consumers onsite as long as they do now since they'll be spending time discovering elsewhere, and Amazon ads will lose money.


If Amazon is paying attention to this (which I assume it is), it all points to another big change in KU at some point in the near future.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Rosalind James said:


> I'm particularly fond of the subtitle, "Any book of fiction, and this fiction so full"
> It's almost existential.


I give it to you...laugh of the day!  It's like a poem, you see in it what you wanna see in it.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Depressing. 
I enjoy the forum but every-time I come back, another scam springs up.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Andrew Murray said:


> Depressing.
> I enjoy the forum but every-time I come back, another scam springs up.


So you're saying that it's your fault?  You are a harbinger of doom it would seem.

It's unbelievable that these sort of books are getting through the filters and actually being published. As a consumer of books and customer of Amazon (because I have a kindle and its just easier to download straight from there) I reported these with a message explaining why and forwarded emails to Bezos.

If everyone who comes across these reports them and explains customers are going elsewhere, they might take note. I hope so because I don't want to go elsewhere, I want to buy from Amazon but if I start buying books elsewhere then I'll also likely start buying other items elsewhere too. Since I doubt I am the only customer like this, they need it pointing out as often as possible.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> If all these books are breezing past the people at Amazon who are supposed to be checking uploads, it raises the legitimate question if the screeners are 1) getting kickbacks from the scammers, or 2) are the scammers themselves, and are using their inner knowledge of the system to make a lot of money.


Do your own research, but remember the brouhaha a few days ago about BooksButterfly? One of their representatives was on this board defending himself and when he was challenged about where readers could see the books he was promoting he pointed to several websites. I did a whois.org on most of the websites that were mentioned and they are owned by a manager of Amazon. I posted about this in the BooksButterfly thread, but removed my post when it occurred to me that the representative may be lying. I personally think it is true and that an Amazon manager is owner of BooksButterfly. Just think about it, a manager responsible for programming at Amazon is also the owner of a website that is selling guaranteed downloads and sales of books on Amazon. It's Kafkaesque!


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Read most of the thread. I'm not following how the scam works, but when checking the different release lists (new in KU, Hot New, etc.), I see what I'm assuming are scams. Depressing.
I'm bummed. It's a bad time to have had a new release.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

PhoenixS said:


> Riffing off what Monique is speculating, let's put some real-world numbers to how a black hatter could rock this. Elsewhere, Monique posited the following:
> 10,000 scambooks
> 300 pages each
> 50 click farmers
> ...


20 days per week? Okay, I admit, you work a little harder than I do. 

I calculate 208.333 KENPs per minute at 8 hours a day, 30 days a month, to read 10,000 300-page books, for each farmer's $9.99 KU subscription. Not only would that call attention to the scam KU subscriber, but pretending to "read" 10,000 books in a month goes way beyond asking for trouble. Not that some people aren't greedy enough to try it, but still.

Even with 10,000 books a year, that would take 8 hours a day, 365 days, and 17.123 KENPs per minute. If there's an average of 200 words per KENP, that's a reading pace of 3,425 words per minute. Hmm. Probably closer to 12 to 16 hours per day would be more reasonable for speed readers, but 10,000 books a year could be done.

Oh, wait. I just thought of something. I've been thinking one-dimensionally. Doh! Many KU subscriptions are shared with family members, not just the single reader. So, conceivably, 12 speed readers could share 6 devices registered to one KU subscription account and read 10,000 300-page books for only $9.99 a month.

But how many households (or even convalescent homes) read at a rate of 120,000 books a year, let alone 50 of them, all borrowing the same suspicious authors' books? Surely, this would raise a red flag with Amazon, because it's so easy to spot these anomalous patterns with database queries.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Here's my prediction:

Amazon's algos and systems are still immature. But they'll evolve. Their evolution will follow that of Google's algorithms. And the small guys will suffer in the process.

Here's how it worked with Google...

In the early days, Google's ranking algo was based on PageRank. Once some of us figured it out, it was easy to game. And through gaming it, we dominated the top results - Google's first page of listings - for our target search queries (e.g. "mortgage loans," "debt consolidation," etc.).

Those were the good 'ole days. Tons of cash. But it didn't last. It _couldn't_ last.

That's where Amazon is today. People are gaming its algos and making tons of cash. (I'm stating the obvious to build a chain of reasoning.) But it won't last. Amazon will eventually shut out the folks doing it.

Here, it's worth understanding how Google locked the gamers out. It tweaked its algos over and over and over. Each tweak made them slightly more difficult to game. Most of us adjusted with each algo update, and usually managed to reclaim the top positions for our search queries. But over the course of several years, doing so became more and more difficult. Each algo tweak required more time, effort, and cash to stay afloat.

Today, Google is very hard to game for high-traffic verticals.

But here's the punchline: it's also very hard for the little guy, the website owner working his ass off to build something useful, to rank well for high-volume search queries (e.g. "debt consolidation"). Unless he's Dave Ramsey, he's left with three options:

1. go after "long tail" phrases like "debt consolidation credit cards college graduate"

2. build a brand

3. buy clicks (PPC)

Option #1 requires a lot of research and work for a much lower stream of traffic.

Option #2 requires a TON of research and years of work with no guaranteed payoff (traffic).

Option #3 is both risky and costly - at least in the beginning when you don't know what you're doing.

That's where Amazon will end up. It'll take a few years to get there, but when it does, small-time authors are going to have a difficult time keeping their heads above water. They'll either have to settle for scraps, build a brand, or buy traffic.

Why? Because most of the exposure will go to "branded" authors, folks like Russell Blake, Hugh Howey, Wayne Stinnett, in the same way Google now rewards big brands.

Again, we're still a few years away from that scenario. And it may seem as if Amazon is doing nothing to address the exploits in its system. But coming up with, and implementing, long-term fixes takes time (ask Google's engineers). The last thing you want to do is roll one back.

I may be completely wrong. But I've been through this scenario before (with Google). It's the surest way Amazon can clean house and continue to dominate the book market, even if that means shedding innocent blood. (Countless legitimate businesses went bankrupt as Google tweaked its algos over and over and over to lock out the gamers.)


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## TessOliver (Dec 2, 2010)

Wow, I just clicked on the link Monique was kind enough to post. So sad. I don't understand why they can't get a handle on this. One of my newest books showed the side of a breast on the cover and it got pushed instantly into the dungeon-- never to be seen again. But these books pass the smell test without a second glance.

Maybe this whole subscription service just needs to go away. They just don't seem to be able to keep up with the scammers.


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## Brad Vance (Mar 19, 2016)

Avis Black said:


> If all these books are breezing past the people at Amazon who are supposed to be checking uploads, it raises the legitimate question if the screeners are 1) getting kickbacks from the scammers, or 2) are the scammers themselves, and are using their inner knowledge of the system to make a lot of money.


No, they're so busy day and night, making sure that no peen or tatas ever pop out from a book cover, rigorously scanning anything labeled Erotica that might be "offensive" to some bluenose in the swamps, that they just don't have time left to chase the real criminals...


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## MikeDavidson (Oct 5, 2013)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> We were talking about the free list hijack over Easter weekend in another group. It's unbelievable. I think Amazon is going to drop the cap further for the KU page reads and possibly disallow bundling altogether in the next several months. I see them going the "one title" per book route. The crying we will hear then will be unbelievable. I'm actually all for that. I have some omnibuses but I think the best thing to do is drop the cap to 1,000 and make it so only single titles are allowed in KDP. Bundling the same books over and over again only hurts the store, so I think it's next to go.


The scammers will likely use a single book cover then leave a link for an important message at the end of a boxset in disguise


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> If you don't understand how scam books filling the top 100 slots would affect books that would otherwise be in those spots, you probably need to think it through again. It doesn't matter how good your book is if there are 30 books pushing it out of the top 100 that are only there because somebody's paying a click farm.


How can you determine a click farm from someone doing legit advertising?


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Monique said:


> Another great, informative, and frustrating article by David Gaughran with guest Phoenix Sullivan.
> 
> Sadly, we've seen this before.
> 
> ...


Ah i see what you mean now.

Let me lay this out in laymens terms for anyone else who was confused.

.... people are uploading books that make no sense. I looked in the ones you mentioned monique and i see what you mean. They are flooding the market with books that make no sense...

Only thing is... not sure they are going to get read. One page maybe but thats it.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

WIP said:


> Ah i see what you mean now.
> 
> Let me lay this out in laymens terms for anyone else who was confused.
> 
> ...


It's likely they don't care about actual readers and will provide readers of their own.


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## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

The way I understand it is--these scam books ARE getting "read" by click farms. Not real readers for the most part.


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## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

Is it impossible to follow the trail to scammers by tracking the KU accounts that are being used by click farmers? You'd think it'd be easy to spot super high volume "readers" then check the books they're "reading".


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

GrandFenwick said:


> Is it impossible to follow the trail to scammers by tracking the KU accounts that are being used by click farmers? You'd think it'd be easy to spot super high volume "readers" then check the books they're "reading".


In an email someone from here had last year, yes, Amazon do know and do track such info. They track a lot of metrics. It's inspecting said results that need to be done.


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## TAGrey (Feb 24, 2016)

Andrew Murray said:


> I can't see anything untoward Monique...give a link to the ones you think are scams.
> I see a lot of romance but they all look fine.


Look Inside at the first book on the list. Read the blurb - notice the strange wording and errors (as if a foreigner wrote them). Then glance through the Look Inside at Chapter One and notice the DEVIANT ART comment taken to add filler. It's not even a real book. It's insane. Nothing makes sense whatsoever. It's a scam book meant to make you click and buy. Actually look for yourself.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

For people dropping into this thing in the middle, the scam seems to be sort of hard to understand. I know Phoenix laid out the numbers upthread, but here's an example (as I understand it) with more explaining and fewer numbers:

Let's say you're a scammer. You set up a bunch of Amazon accounts and enroll them in KU. Each of these accounts will be manned by some click-farmers. In KU, one account can check out 10 books at once and access them via 6 devices, so quite a few click-farmers could man each account.

Then you publish an endless stream of "books" and put them all in KU. It doesn't matter whatsoever what's inside these books. They need to have content, and they can't trip Amazon's rudimentary plagiarism bots, and they can't exceed 3,000 KENP, but other than that, there could be literally anything between the covers.

The folks at the click-farms manning the KU-enrolled accounts borrow only these books and "read" them. That might be as simple as clicking a link to skip to the end. Or, if Amazon has fixed that vulnerability, maybe the click-farmers have to page through the entire book at a reasonable rate.

Click-farms are in places like Pakistan and the Philippines, where the average wage is something like $10/day. So, you pay them a nominal amount to "read" hundreds of books a day. You get some millions of page-reads per day and rake in the money.

The model can be scaled up or down.

See why Phoenix called it a "closed system"? The scammer creates the books, hires the readers, and collects the money from Amazon. Real readers are not part of the equation.

Exactly how the 22 books Phoenix noticed on the free list fit into this isn't clear to me. One could certainly use a service like FBS to buy one's freebie big visibility and, thus, a lot of KU borrows and post-free sales. But that can't be the plan here: no real readers are going to read books with gibberish inside, even if they do borrow them. Maybe a scammer got mixed up, and 22 books that were supposed to get borrowed and read 30,000 times at the click-farm instead got free-downloaded 30,000 times? Dunno. It's sort of weird.

At any rate, gibberish books like those 22 have been all over the KU new release lists for a while, so this seems to be a well established scam.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Exactly how the 22 books Phoenix noticed on the free list fit into this isn't clear to me... Maybe a scammer got mixed up, and 22 books that were supposed to get borrowed and read 30,000 times at the click-farm instead got free-downloaded 30,000 times?


My guess is they get the books free downloads so that real readers at least download the books, too, which cloaks the effect of their books only being read by click farmers, to Amazon's algorithms. This is keeping them from being detected.

It is also keeping books that are genuinely attractive to real readers off the top of the free list where more real readers would find them.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

I expect people will tell me how unrealistic my suggestions are but I would like to put them out there anyway:

given that it's agreed Amazon takes too long to tackle these scams and only seems to come up with systems that encourage other scams, ie KU 1 led to KU 2, why don’t authors band together to change things instead?

I suspect the quality of books written by kboarders is higher than the quality of books written by non-kboarders, simply because there is so much emphasis on this forum on editing, getting your book professionally edited, and putting out the best product.

So how about if everyone here agrees to remove their books from KU? Shorts could remain but full length novels could all be removed.

Once readers see the bulk of the better written works have disappeared fom KU, they have less incentive to renew their subscriptions.

Many of you blog and tweet. How about if we have some kind of movement where we all agree to remove our books. Kind of a non-formal Self-published Author's Union, if you will.

Spread the word through your social media that we writers are fed up of the scams and are thus removing all books from KU. Invite other writers to do the same, even if they aren't on kboards and so haven’t heard about all this.

Yes, I know some of the bigger sellers like KU or at any rate get a good chunk of money from it. I'd still ask these authors to join the rest of us and to take a temporary hit in income in order to force Amazon to stop coming up with systems that can be so easily scammed.

Or even if the big earners don’t want to join us, I still suggest the prawns and mid listers band together to change things fo the better for all of us.

We can all start by blogging and tweeting about these scammers and announcing we will all shun KU from now on. if the movement  gets enough momentum, the story could be picked up by the bigger blogs and papers, giving it enough publicity for Amazon to actually change things for the better.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> My guess is they get the books free downloads so that real readers at least download the books, too, which cloaks the effect of their books only being read by click farmers, to Amazon's algorithms. This is keeping them from being detected.


I don't know ... if anything, the way they shot to the top of free list as a unit made them way more obvious than all the thousands of others just like them. And now they've been disabled. If some sort of camouflage was the goal, it backfired.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Is it just me, or do the search results appear to be being cleaned up? I did a search for 'dragon shifter romance' yesterday, after reading this thread, and though there were keyword stuffed titles and some that had 25 bonus books, there were less of them, I think, and less obvious. I was shocked to find my book up there on the first page, and thought it must be a personalised result, but friends have confirmed it too.

Of course, there are still issues, because it was on the first page of science fiction romance too, despite having no keywords or sci-fi plot points at all!

Sadly, I'm seeing no increase in downloads for this fact, which I think just rams home the fact that people have given up using searches on Amazon. I wonder if they'll ever come back to it?

I checked out fantasy romance too, and that was their the biggest surprise of all. The entire first page had NO keyword stuffed posts, and NO obvious PNR! Broke down on the second page, but still!


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## cdk (Feb 28, 2015)

I agree with a prior post.  Bundles are a value outside of KU, but there’s no reason to allow bundles in KU because the books can be borrowed individually.  My theory is the books are free because it’s easier for them to stay under the radar and avoid outraged customers who accidentally purchase the book.

I could be wrong, but with respect to the rest of the sham books, I don’t think the solution is to stop people from uploading books or a new change to KU.

I think the solution is on the back-end, the payout.  The ONLY reason people publish sham books is to get paid.  The solution is to stop payment.  Amazon has 2 months lead time to identify sham authors and books before payments are transmitted.  They should start with accounts earning $1M and work their way down from there.  Once identified, Amazon should refuse to pay the author for any books, in or out of KU, and give notice that their books and accounts will be deleted and the author/social security number banned for life.  The books identified by Monique in an earlier post are an egregious example and I don’t think anyone could mount a credible defense that they’re legitimate books.  Royalties earned by sham books should then be included in the global KU fund and dispersed to KU authors who are ultimately the financial victims of sham books.  When they do this, Amazon should identify the amount added to the global fund as a deterrent so people know accounts are being eliminated and royalties forfeited.

No doubt the authors will sue Amazon to recover their royalties, at which time Amazon should file a cross-complaint to recover all past royalties earned in violation of their terms of conditions, limited only by the statute of limitations.  The statute of limitations for fraud in some places is 2 or 3 years, or determined by when the fraud is discovered.  By suing, sham authors risk losing significantly more than the current royalties Amazon refuses to pay, and they could end up paying for Amazon’s legal costs and possible attorneys’ fees.

This does 4 things.  First, hopefully this serves as a deterrent to anyone publishing in violation of terms and conditions that damage Amazon’s value.  Second, legitimate authors have incentive to help Amazon identify sham books by policing their genre and reporting them to Amazon.

Third, presumably sham books are published in volume because of low cost and little oversight.  By making sham authors sue to recover their royalties, there is now a cost associated with publishing sham books and it’s unlikely to be cheap or quick to recover royalties from Amazon once it makes a determination a person is publishing sham books.  This serves as the consequence that is missing from Amazon’s current penalty of just deleting the books once they are discovered.  True, that once deleted, the author may publish thousands more books, but they’ll expend a lot of time and effort publishing without the certainty that any royalty earned today, will be paid 2 months later.

The fourth thing this does is it lifts the veil behind the person/corporation producing the sham books.  By suing to recover their royalty, their true identity will be known and their assets susceptible to punitive damages in the cross-complaint, which are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.  By lifting the veil behind sham authors, discovery in the action should expose the entire operation, including their practices, vendors, associates and click farms.

This problem won’t be solved overnight, but by making royalty payments an uncertainty and unpredictable, and slowly choking off profits, hopefully publishing sham books cease to become profitable on Amazon. 

Of course I have no idea what Amazon will ultimately do, but this approach is not too far removed from how Amazon dealt with paid reviews, so it’s possible.  Sometimes litigation is the only way.

Just my two cents.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Excellent ideas, *cdk*.

I wonder what will happen. I really don't think it can go on as-is indefinitely. I have less of a vested interest these days, as I've been moving my books out of KU for the most part, but I'm still following this with interest.

I would like to see a level-headed, strategic, and transparent approach. Wishes might be horses, but I can still hope. (Although it seems a bit late in the game for "strategic." Unless lulling the scammers into a feeling of safety while they filled the store with bloat and siphoned millions was all part of some cunning strategy.)


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## Keith Taylor (Mar 12, 2012)

I'd imagine that the majority of the scammers involved aren't based in the US, and the vast majority of the click farms used to generate page reads will be based overseas as they require workers who are happy to earn a dollar or two per hour. I'm based out of Thailand and Mongolia, and I could set up my very own click farm tomorrow right here in Bangkok. I could even have a physical address and advertise vacancies for employees in the local paper, and there'd be absolutely nothing Amazon could do to hurt me other than ban my account and withhold my earnings. Legal action is a non-starter unless Amazon managed to find a scammer dumb enough to do this from within the States. 

Your point about the payout is spot on, though. Scammers will ALWAYS be one step ahead of any system Amazon can design. There are always loopholes to be exploited and unintended consequences of any change, and there are many thousands of people who make a living seeking them out. That's just an immutable law of the Internet, and it would be folly to try to stop scammers at the front door. 

What Amazon can and must do is work harder - much, much harder - to use their two month window to identify scammers before the checks are mailed out. We can find many of them using only Amazon's own search function, so I'd be astounded if Amazon can't do the same with the vast volume of data at their disposal and with time on their side. 

Of course the scammers will always return. It's easy enough to set up a KDP account that a ban will only ever be a temporary setback, but that's not the point. The point is to make scammers afraid. Afraid that their thousands of dollars of investment will be lost with a single email from KDP. Afraid that weeks of making covers, creating word salad books and publishing to Amazon will earn them nothing. Amazon needs to take action and make it clear that they're no longer a meal ticket, and they need to do it with extreme prejudice. Only when scammers know it's 50/50 whether they'll ever receive any money will they move on to the next opportunity.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

I wonder if there is a new scam going on involving re-selling ASINs that have pumped-up rankings. If you could figure out a way to take some bogus book X, then pump it up with farmed borrows, and then transfer that ASIN over to a totally different book, it would look like that book just had thousands of downloads, when it actually had none. I don't know how you would do that, but something similar was going on in fake FB page likes. Companies were building bogus FB pages, promising to enter you in a contest to win something, and pumping that with farmed likes, and then they would sell off the page where it would be re-branded as a completely different product. But it would still keep it's thousands of likes.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/21/tech/social-media/facebook-like-farming/index.html


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Is it just me, or do the search results appear to be being cleaned up? I did a search for 'dragon shifter romance' yesterday, after reading this thread, and though there were keyword stuffed titles and some that had 25 bonus books, there were less of them, I think, and less obvious. I was shocked to find my book up there on the first page, and thought it must be a personalised result, but friends have confirmed it too.


KDP recently sent out an email saying authors should categorize their works correctly. I'm sure they're cleaning up the keyword stuffing.
That will help with most of the scammers, but I'm sure they're ten steps ahead of Amazon and have non keyword stuffed books.

CDK, realistically, authors aren't going to leave in droves because they make more in KDP Select than they do wide. Amazon knows this. That's why they don't need to move quickly to fix anything for authors' sake. For customers, though....

I signed up for a 6 month subscription and now I'm sorry I did. I won't be making that mistake again.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

AuthorX said:


> I'm an author who bundles, but I'd love to see them ban bundling from Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> If you want to bundle, go for it... But a bundle really has no place being enrolled in KU. If a Kindle Unlimited subscriber wanted all 10 books of a 10 book bundle, let them borrow all 10. It costs them nothing.


I tentatively agree with this. I understand the implications--it's a lot easier to get someone to click a bundle of ten and read all the way through than to get someone to go to Amazon ten freaking times to get the next bit--but, even as someone who writes serials and would almost certainly lose readers partway through if Amazon kicked bundles out, I think this might be the best way to handle it.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I feel like I might be making more money out than in right now?  And I only currently have books on Amazon and All Romance eBooks, haven't taken the steps to go completely wide yet.  It's partially inertia, partly thinking they're going to fix KU soon.    But I earned more last month than I did in a while...without KU.  

Anyway as a reader I still find things I enjoy in KU and I'm not sorry I joined for six months.  I just wish I was happier with it as an author...  It was amazing for me for a long time, but lately not so much.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> I'm particularly fond of the subtitle, "Any book of fiction, and this fiction so full"
> 
> It's almost existential.


I feel inner peace coming on any minute.

No, wait, I guess that was gas. *shrug*


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## Wolfpack (Jun 20, 2013)

Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


Just WOW!


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

TessOliver said:


> Wow, I just clicked on the link Monique was kind enough to post. So sad. I don't understand why they can't get a handle on this. One of my newest books showed the side of a breast on the cover and it got pushed instantly into the dungeon-- never to be seen again. But these books pass the smell test without a second glance.


This. *THIS* is what makes me see red. They're so worried about the G-D "customer experience" that they're scrutinizing covers and pulling down books with 80 freakin' KENPC because the TOC is in the back ... but THIS s**t doesn't raise any red flags at all? Someone uploading 30 books in a single day doesn't necessitate a human eye giving them a once-over? They don't actually LOOK at an author's catalog before they pay out an All-Star bonus?

It's laziness, and a company-wide conviction that goes all the way to the top (I'm looking at you, Jeff) that we, as indie authors, are utterly interchangeable/disposable. And it upsets me so much.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


Not kosher at all. Pretty much everything about that book is a violation.


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## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


I like how the entire book is a quarter of the look inside sample.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

That book and its two top also-boughts are the exact same book. REPORT THEM. There are links to do this near the bottom of the page. In the report, state that they are the exact same as two other books and list the ASINs. Say that they are bribing people to download them by raffling off a gift certificate. Mention that the dragon one starts in the middle of a sentence.

Yes, yes, we all have "better things to do." But it took me ten minutes, and I waste more time than that on Facebook every time I get up to get more coffee. The ONLY reason Dave Koziel got slapped and all his books are gone is because people reported the hell out of him when he was outed on these boards.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

My head is in a spin. That dragon book...are these stolen shorts complied together? Or ghostwritten stuff? Click farms, clink coops...my eyes hurt. Seeing they make so much money makes me sick.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't think any collective attempts to get authors to move out of KU will have much effect, because of the "eternal September" effect. There are far more new authors coming in to KU who don't know about this issue, and who don't read Kboards and keep up with all the latest scams, than there are of well-informed authors. There's just so much for new authors to take in.

That doesn't mean it's not going to help to blog about this issue. By all means do so, and I will gladly share posts about this, but I don't think that's going to be enough to fix the situation.

One thing that I think is going to have an effect is authors getting together to promote independently, in order to bypass Amazon's lists as a form of discovery. One example is the emergence of multi-author mailing lists http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,234375.msg3263962/ and another is the growth of Bookbub and its many, many imitators. Maybe Amazon isn't too bothered about this because they own Goodreads, which is another service readers are turning to in order to find what is currently buried in Amazon. But if they don't fix this problem, they can wave goodbye to their book discovery usefulness.

I do see this evolving the way Google's search has evolved, with some reservations. There isn't nearly as much money at stake in KU as there is on Google as a whole, so there's a limit to how much Amazon might be willing to invest to clean up its store. And what Google has done in search has effectively made it very difficult for smaller websites to compete, and I see individual authors as the equivalent to that. But KU is built largely on indies; crowd them out and what will be left of it?

Ann Christy's blog ( http://www.annchristy.com/ku-scammers-on-amazon-what-you-need-to-know/ if you're just joining this thread) gives an excellent explanation of the issue which I found really useful. Thank you Ann.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

What happened to the art of writing, the joy of it? Amazon need shut this system. Go back to selling books or maybe, dare I say, KU1 ( yes, still scammy but we could have tiers at least. )
short: 50 c
Novella: $1
Novel and art books: $2
Please don't throw rocks at me, I am just thinking aloud. Seems all genres have been scammed. Maybe this community can leave romance and erotica authors alone now. It is obviously happening in all kinds of genres. A common enemy to any writer and reader.
How about a review process? You pub a book and it goes through a week where a dedicated reader scans through it. Still, maybe that's impossible. Or a cap on how many books one can sell in a week...say 5 books max. Obviously erotica authors produce a lot of quantity so I am not sure. 
Again, I have no answers...I'm just throwing loose ideas out there. Don't jump on me.
I think it is time for me to bow out again. These subjects, while enlightening, are damn depressing. I hope this gets resolved for us all, and, more importantly the reader. Without readers on our side, we are nothing.


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## Eskimo (Dec 31, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> They pay click farms to borrow the book on KU and click to the last page and voila! They get 3000 KENPC paid.


And as a result they managed to get ranked #939 in PAID, with a book that was published yesterday and has no reviews.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Andrew Murray said:


> What happened to the art of writing, the joy of it?


These people aren't writers, so the question doesn't apply to them.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

I know... it's so sad.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

This is all sort of depressing. I've never had a Pollyanna view of Amazon's attitude toward us. I've always figured they would do what they needed to do as a business, and that would include squeezing what they could out of us and their other suppliers.

But I did think they were competent. Highly competent, even.

I really fell for that whole "we're the cheetah, traditional publishing is the gazelle" bullshit. They're not the cheetah. Not the KDP part of them, anyway. KDP is some starved, staggering ostrich. Foreseeable problems are neither predicted nor handled.

I think they thought they could become the biggest publishing platform the world has ever known without any significant ongoing cost. I think they looked at us and thought, "free money."


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It is incredibly depressing.

One half-way competent employee could stop so much of this, but they don't even seem willing to invest that much in making the bookstore not suck.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

All we can do for now is write the best we can, stick to our ethical ways and hope Amazon have something better in store. And yes, complain when something is an obvious piss take ( excuse the language )
I can't worry so much about this now. I'll never get my work done. 
Thank you Monique for raising this though. Depressing, but we can't bury our head in the sand I guess.
Have a great week people. I am sure a brighter future will come.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

The physical goods marketplace has people who vet sellers, and it is building a new platform to prevent listing abuse. The ebook store could use some of that.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en-gb/jobs/374950



> Amazon's Marketplace is looking for a smart, talented leader with a strong technical and management background to build a new platform that prevents listing abuse. This is a system that combines machine learning and heuristics to detect, prevent and enforce against offending Sellers. The team will also play a critical role in identifying and closing gaps in the core listing and selection systems that power all of Amazon's businesses. These systems play a critical role in enabling the business to expand in multiple geographies and provide Sellers with new features for listing their products.


https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/379647



> Amazon.com is creating a new role responsible for leading our efforts to protect our catalog from listing abuse. As our Marketplace has grown, it has become a more attractive target for malicious Sellers to attempt to game our systems to inappropriately drive increased traffic and sales for their products or to damage the traffic and sales for other Sellers' products. They attempt to exploit gaps in our systems and the mechanisms we use to ensure a high quality customer experience. This gaming is a trustbuster for customers and other sellers, and something we consider unacceptable.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

See, seems Amazon is already on it. This isn't a quick fix... now back to those books!
I really believe that if Amazon think their model is suffering, that they will take the steps to fix it. 
Anyway, I'm out. This thread has been exhausting, sobering, depressing... but I have hope. I have to or I'd quit, and that is NOT an option.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Andrew Murray said:


> See, seems Amazon is already on it. This isn't a quick fix... now back to those books!


Well, maybe. Those listings are for the 3rd-party seller marketplace, not Kindle content. They don't vet KDPers like they do marketplace sellers. However, the job listing for that new platform to prevent listing abuse refers to "closing gaps in the core listing and selection systems that power all of Amazon's businesses." Note the "all of Amazon's businesses." Hence the "maybe."

In another thread, I posted some similar listings for the Kindle Store. When they talk about us, they refer to "Kindle Content."

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,233784.msg3255204.html#msg3255204

****

Apparently the team that reviews ebooks is called "Content Risk Management." They check to see whether a book complies with Amazon's ToC.

They're hiring a new director. Interesting in light of the recent hubbub over scam books.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/387253



> The Kindle ebooks team is looking for an experienced senior leader for our global Content Risk Management team. This team is responsible for reviewing all incoming content for our independent publishing platforms. The team monitors for both content and publisher compliance with our content standards and terms and conditions. This individual will lead a motivated team in diverse locations to enforce existing policies while building new ones and the necessary software to help them all scale.





> · They will have an ability to understand technical systems in a complex, automated, content processing environment across multiple businesses in multiple geographies.
> · They will demonstrate clear written and oral communication with an emotional maturity and grace under pressure.


That part about "grace under pressure".... 

Curious about what a job listing for an actual reviewer looks like? Check this out:

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/362566


> The Amazon Kindle team is seeking a Risk Management Specialist for our Kindle Books Self Publishing Operation. This is an exciting opportunity to work on highly visible projects and be part of history in the making!
> 
> The Risk Management Specialist will:
> · Evaluate copyright and appropriateness for content submitted through Amazon.com's Kindle Direct Publishing
> ...


BTW, Amazon is also hiring a new Director of Product for Kindle Direct Publishing and a Director of Kindle Content Support. 

****


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


Two of the books you can see on the look inside are marked for quality issues. One of them, the entire text is highlighted. Yet this bundle is still up and running. Hope the click farmers are making loads, because I'm sure not.

It's getting to the point I wonder why I don't just join them. Stuff the titles, rework bundles with the same stories (I can write crappy shit, or scrap stuff from fan fiction sites) and put up some front money on one of those job sites. If I was lucky, I might make a few thousand before they caught me. Maybe even an All Star Bonus!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #882 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

I wonder if it's possible to gift a copy of "Heap of Taste" or "Linoleum in the People" to Jeff Bezos' Kindle...


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

JRHenderson said:


> I wonder if it's possible to gift a copy of "Heap of Taste" or "Linoleum in the People" to Jeff Bezos' Kindle...


That made me laugh aloud.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Monique said:


> Not kosher at all. Pretty much everything about that book is a violation.


 And it's #882 Paid in the whole Kindle Store. Hard to fathom that they can remain under Amazon's radar to do that well.


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## NightWriterCT (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm with the folks up-thread who say don't join KU or pull your stuff out. Why lend legitimacy to this scheme where the scammers win at the expense of the quality material that's left in KU? Even if you're making money in it for the moment. I just see the system as flawed. Like a monetary system where the currency is easy to counterfeit and the government does nothing to stop it.... the currency in such a system ends up worthless. Probably not a perfect comparison but close enough. 

I have one book (a short) in KU that I didn't renew (term runs out in a few days) and another one will be released in May and that's not going into KU - it's going wide from the beginning. I hope going wide works out financially but I just feel like KU is a scam at the end of the day, and getting scammier, and it doesn't seem like TPTB at Amazon are in any hurry to resolve the scammer issues. Maybe the all-you-can-read for a flat fee model isn't workable in this incarnation. At any rate, I'm out.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> And it's #882 Paid in the whole Kindle Store. Hard to fathom that they can remain under Amazon's radar to do that well.


And then you remember that these people got ALL STAR BONUSES for December and January, and it's like this:


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

JRHenderson said:


> I wonder if it's possible to gift a copy of "Heap of Taste" or "Linoleum in the People" to Jeff Bezos' Kindle...


Hilarious!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I've read the Look Inside of Linoleum in the People and I'm seriously tempted by sentences like "I was scared I'd facial area loss of life by means of avalanche of sweet hearts if I opened my locker." Stop me!


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

Andrew Murray said:


> All we can do for now is write the best we can, stick to our ethical ways and hope Amazon have something better in store. And yes, complain when something is an obvious p*ss take ( excuse the language )
> I can't worry so much about this now. I'll never get my work done.
> Thank you Monique for raising this though. Depressing, but we can't bury our head in the sand I guess.
> Have a great week people. I am sure a brighter future will come.


Yes! I'm with you, brother. All we can do is to continue puting good products out and enjoy being immersed in our art/work. I also find this depressing. As a newer author with already a Mt. Everest in between me and visibility/audience, I think the best thing is to continue being involved in communities such as this one, work together with my fellow authors, and work on building my email list.

Thank you to Monique and the other authors here who have blogged about this information/brought it to light. As another poster here mentioned, there are SO many other writers out there entering this business without knowing what's going on with KU. I have a tiny, tiny audience on my blog but I intend on putting this information on it. Spreading the word is important. Authors need to know what hurdles they face besides the average.

What upsets me the most is that these scam artists are taking money from legitimate authors. Okay, I know that folks need to eat and that these scams are most likely based in the 3rd world where opportunities are limited (I'm originally from the 3rd world so I don't mean this as an insult in any way). HOWEVER, this is serious bull crap because all of us work hard...WORK...to create and establish a legitimate business to feed our families. Because Amazon is a huge company, it might just be taking them some time to come up with feasible solutions to this problem...or problems...because there are more than one.

I know it'll never happen, but KU needs to go. Scammers are always going to find a new way to make money by thievery, but at least before Unlimited people were able to purchase legitimate books. These guys have such a cake scam going that they don't even need real readers. That's the most troubling thing for me. They aren't only stealing money from actual authors, *but the money hard working readers pay in order to subscribe to Kindle Unlimited in order to be a part of the program and read books from legit authors is being ripped off, too*. They pay a monthly fee that ideally goes to pay the authors of the books they are reading but that isn't turning out to be the case. Everyone loses!

Hopefully, Amazon is working to come up with a solution to all of this, although that thread about another subscription service going through here yesterday has me wondering. For now, I'm keeping my work out of KU. It makes no difference to me since I'm as baby prawn as they come. I do also believe in that what goes around comes around, so these scam farts will get their someday.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> And as a result they managed to get ranked #939 in PAID, with a book that was published yesterday and has no reviews.


By the most reliable estimates we have, that would translate to more than 100 sales a day. Is someone actually spending $300 a day to keep this book in the top #1000? What would be the point? If you put $1 into a machine and get $0.70 back two months later, you're donating money to Amazon. You're not accomplishing anything financially.

But this raises an even more important question. We occasionally hear stories hereabouts of the brand new author who writes an above-average book, puts a mediocre cover on it and within days (or perhaps hours) winds up selling 10-12 copies a day and makes thousands in their first few weeks. Their story is always the same: "I didn't do anything except tweet a couple times and write a blog post." Then it's *zoom! wowiee!* 300 sales a month and five star reviews all the way to the horizon.

Whether their manipulation of the system is benevolent or not, given what we know about this market, such a feat should be impossible absent some kind of influence over their book's visibility that is either a) fantastically expensive or b) so close to the line if they didn't shave that morning they'd be trespassing.

Even Konrath spent _years_ on his ground game before he had that kind of immediate success with a new book.

It doesn't take a genius to realize there are some people who are in the winky-winky club and others who aren't. I've been at this for years. I've seen authors throw in the towel right here on this message board after months of zilch visibility even with pro covers, pro editing and solid reviews. And then we see the satisfied few, who report never-ending success on Amazon even though a fair percentage haven't written a new book in months or years and don't seem to spend a cent on advertising or anything else.

Are we expected to believe their covers are _that_ much better? That their writing is _that_ much better? Or is there something else at work? When someone so handily beats the odds, are we watching the last 20 minutes of a Disney sports film or are we just not seeing the magician's other hand?

What we do know is that Amazon rewards the scammers and manipulators and then lies to prospective authors about exactly what it is they provide. "With Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) you can easily publish your book and reach millions of readers" is their pitch. It's utter nonsense. Nearly any author could make a living writing if they were actually exposed to "millions" of readers. The truth is, if you play it straight, you'll be exposed to NO readers. If Amazon ever published the actual traffic figures to our book pages, KDP would be a ghost town in a matter of days.

I've already told the story of the two books I know of that share a title but only show up in search results if they are in KDP Select. Yes, that's right, boys and girls. Amazon keeps your non-KDP book *INVISIBLE EVEN IF SOMEONE SEARCHES FOR IT BY EXACT TITLE.*

I've also told the story of our romance author, who took her books out of KDP Select and then watched her steady and growing sales flat-line the very next day. They've stayed that way ever since. It was like someone flipped a switch. In fact, that's probably exactly what happened. Fits right in with the stories we hear about how Amazon "punishes" some books and not others. Apparently not being in KDP Select is out of line.

Now if you buy a Bknights, or a Bookbub, or you figure out some way to scam Amazon into making your book free, or you bribe a bunch of people to join your mailing list and all agree to download your book at the same time, or you load your masterpiece up with scraped fanfiction and pay a bunch of teenagers in Vietnam to buy it/download it/whatever, you might get some traction in the rankings, but the very LAST person on the KDP totem pole is the poor dumb sonofab*tch who works hard, writes a good book, puts a good cover on it and then gets started writing the next one. Oh sure, he'll sell a book occasionally and he'll get a good review occasionally. But literally nobody gives a flying ---- about that. The rest of the market is way too busy sliding their checks across the rigged roulette table and stuffing each other's pockets.

The truth is Amazon doesn't do jack to market books for legit authors, yet still helps itself to up to 65% of the cover price. Amazon doesn't reward hard-working authors at all. There are ways to do it that would solve the "big pile of fanfiction" bundle problem. They just don't care. I've brought this up before, many times in fact. I always get shouted down, because the winky-winky club doesn't want anyone to rock the boat.

The funny part is we've always been very conscientious about not infringing on our KDP Select obligations and doing the right thing. Now we see what we've earned for our effort.

Indie publishing has never been a meritocracy. It's about who can come up with the more perfect way to scam and manipulate Amazon. The only reason people are upset in this thread is because apparently someone came up with a better mouse trap and ate their lunch. They didn't do it with a $300 mailing list entry, or a fake free book, or a carefully coordinated "everyone download this tomorrow at breakfast" thing. They just paid an army of poor people to type and click and swipe for a few cents an hour. Kind of like the e-book equivalent of Amazon's warehouse staff.

Perhaps this is the indie publishing business' housing crisis. Perhaps this is our version of fake mortgages being sold as AAA investments to pension funds and the elderly with Amazon playing the part of our razor-sharp government full of tireless defenders of truth, justice and the American Way. Well, we all know how that worked out.

What we know for sure is this: If Amazon is going to make book marketing (and whatever the hell else marketing) a contest where whoever solves the puzzle wins the prize, they can't credibly object when someone does exactly that.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

justphil said:


> By the most reliable estimates we have, that would translate to more than 100 sales a day. Is someone actually spending $300 a day to keep this book in the top #1000?


No. It's paid ranking is off the back of borrows.


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> No. It's paid ranking is off the back of borrows.


What's most interesting to me is how you state that with such certainty. How do you know that? What evidence do you have aside from their ranking that proves it is due to borrows? Did a thousand people all sign up for Kindle Unlimited so they could swipe pages all night? Even if they did, how would you know?


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## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

justphil said:


> What's most interesting to me is how you state that with such certainty. How do you know that? What evidence do you have aside from their ranking that proves it is due to borrows? Did a thousand people all sign up for Kindle Unlimited so they could swipe pages all night? Even if they did, how would you know?


Don't you have a reports page? Didn't you read the thread you posted in?

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Shane Lochlann Black (Mar 3, 2015)

> Don't you have a reports page?


Yes. I've been checking it regularly for years. I don't see the option where it allows me to see how many borrows or sales someone else's book gets.



> Why go on a conspiracy rant about an 'inside club' knowing more than the general public when everyone is always trying to push out more info and you haven't paid attention?


Please link the part of this thread that explains how a brand new author and his/her stunningly unremarkable book pole-vaults into the top #200 with two tweets and a blog post. Perhaps I missed it.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

justphil said:


> What's most interesting to me is how you state that with such certainty. How do you know that? What evidence do you have aside from their ranking that proves it is due to borrows?


Have you bothered to read this thread about how the scam works? Phoenix and others have explained about the closed loop. It relies on borrows, not sales. And there have been numerous threads about the effect of borrows on rank, I'm not going to do your work for you and search them out and excerpt all the relevant parts. Or do you need someone to explain it to you using smaller words and maybe some gifs?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I *think* he's talking about the most recently linked to book which is not (necessarily) part of the click-farm scams. The rank is pretty ... robust though.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Here's my prediction:
> 
> Amazon's algos and systems are still immature. But they'll evolve. Their evolution will follow that of Google's algorithms. And the small guys will suffer in the process.
> 
> ...


Scary stuff.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2016)

Whoever said the book's rank was due to borrows wasn't sucking that out of his or her thumb. Read the reviews of the two books in the also-boughts that are similarly scammy. The reviewers there are clearly saying that they found the books they are reviewing in a KU poplist and they were very high in the list and that was the reason they borrowed them. Something is going on in the algos, because the books are unreadable, and no one in his right mind would look inside and then decide to borrow these books.

Remember what I said about BooksButterfly being owned by a manager of programming at Amazon? Cue: Twighlight Zone music


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

What is the difference in stuffing the title versus the description?  Why is one scammy and the other not?  There is a long thread on the board on how to do key word stuffing.  Also, periodically someone will post a word or two that Amazon kicked back as no good.  I think stuffing the title is ugly, but why is it scamming?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

RedAlert said:


> What is the difference in stuffing the title versus the description? Why is one scammy and the other not? There is a long thread on the board on how to do key word stuffing. Also, periodically someone will post a word or two that Amazon kicked back as no good. I think stuffing the title is ugly, but why is it scamming?


Title keyword stuffing is against TOS and manipulates search. It's also ugly and clutters search. Keyword stuffing in a description is pointless; descriptions are not searchable. Most keywords should be used in the backend metadata where there is a field for them.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

justphil said:


> I've already told the story of the two books I know of that share a title but only show up in search results if they are in KDP Select. Yes, that's right, boys and girls. Amazon keeps your non-KDP book *INVISIBLE EVEN IF SOMEONE SEARCHES FOR IT BY EXACT TITLE.*


Two things.

1. If your ebook isn't in KDP, then it isn't on Amazon, period. KDP is the platform that EVERY indie author publishes through. KDP _*Select*_ is the exclusive program.

2. The claim that non-Select books don't show up in search results even if you search for it by exact title is demonstrably false. All the stuff I publish on my own is in Select, but the stuff I publish through a small press is wide. Here are screenshots of my results:


































_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

What's they title of these two books that don't display properly?


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Just. Because. I hate scammers.










Edit: btw, how the heck do I make the image smaller.


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## Denise Lewis (Dec 31, 2015)

As a total noob to all of this, I am wondering why Amazon can't require all books (no matter the format) to have a registered ISBN as part of their standard publishing requirements? And then create a program (or hire help) to check the validity of each ISBN before the book goes live on their website. Wouldn't this help, in some way, to eliminate some of this? 

Or, would it even matter? Would the people doing these types of things find a way around this, as well?

I just wish that there was a way to stop these types of books before they are even published. Nip it in the bud (as Barney Fife would say), before they are allowed to even get their foot in the door. Wouldn't that be easier, than trying to stop it after they are in the door and stealing the money out of the mouths of legitimate authors?

Again, total noob here...    It's just that, sometimes the simplest answer can be easily overlooked. And I know that even then, the scammers seem to always find a way. The whole thing is just sad.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

Wolfpack said:


> Check out the description. I know this guy is trying to get the reader to click to the end of the book, but if it's Kosher with Amazon I've been building my mailing lists the wrong way. http://www.amazon.com/Romance-Paranormal-Shifter-Fantasy-Psychic-ebook/dp/B01E49V4HU


If this is an example of one of the scam books, I'm not sure how Amazon is going to fix this problem programatically. That said, even Amazon wouldn't be able to put human eyes on every newly submitted book for review before publishing.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Denise Lewis said:


> Would the people doing these types of things find a way around this, as well?


Pretty much yes.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Denise Lewis said:


> As a total noob to all of this, I am wondering why Amazon can't require all books (no matter the format) to have a registered ISBN as part of their standard publishing requirements? And then create a program (or hire help) to check the validity of each ISBN before the book goes live on their website. Wouldn't this help, in some way, to eliminate some of this?
> 
> Or, would it even matter? Would the people doing these types of things find a way around this, as well?
> 
> ...


What's to stop the scammers from buying ISBNs?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm not sure who the club is or the bullies are. I just wanted to check the title for myself. Until I see stuff with my own eyes, I assume there's some other explanation. That's just me.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Denise Lewis said:


> As a total noob to all of this, I am wondering why Amazon can't require all books (no matter the format) to have a registered ISBN as part of their standard publishing requirements? And then create a program (or hire help) to check the validity of each ISBN before the book goes live on their website. Wouldn't this help, in some way, to eliminate some of this?


If these scammers are claiming all-star bonuses, then it's clear that money isn't really a problem for them. So the only people you'd hurt by forcing all KDP users to purchase ISBNs are the average self-published authors.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Until I see actual proof of a claim, I'm going to believe there are other explanations. If Amazon were suppressing non-KU books with the same title of one in KU there should be other examples to provide.

For example, my book Out of Time is not in KU. There are others books with this same title (different series titles). My book is displayed in search for it above a KU book.

Amazon does favor KU books and their own imprints in lots of ways so perhaps there is some weighting there, but not true suppression, imo.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2016)

justphil said:


> I like how you're already making excuses for Amazon without even seeing the search, which kind of makes linking anything pointless.


Actually other people have posted facts and verifiable search results that disprove your emotive assertions that non-KU books are invisible. I have a series that is wide, those books come up on even a partial title search on Amazon. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask for the title to try and replicate your supposed results. So we have a number of people who have *proven* that wide books are still returned in Amazon search results.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

I see that books can be directly reported as pornographic now, if you go to the report buttons at the very end of the book page. Sadly, I can see this being misused by fellow authors...

I reported the dragon shifter book linked to up above for keyword stuffing, as a TOS violation.

Fascinating thread. I prefer to know what's going on if I can, so thanks to the people who got it off the ground!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

I am a reader. I see non KU to KU titles 3 to 1. This is using recommendations that are both amazon driven, my own ratings driven and other goodreads folks driven. I see about the same on the rare occasion I still use Amazon browsing. 

But hey, I am just one of those pesky readers. So take it as you want.   

Oh, I have a prepaid KU sub until 2017, so i'd like it to stick around, for obvious reasons.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

I gave you a solution to this--prove your claim by posting search results for someone else's non-Select book. There are more than a few indies who don't use Select, you can easily find them by searching through the KU threads on this very board. Many of them post under their author name and have books in their signature.

If your claim were even remotely true, then how come you can't provide evidence to back it up? Why do my non-Select books show up in Amazon search results? Why does Monique's? How about Abderian?

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I'm reviewing this thread; I've left it open so far but I may have to lock it while I do some pruning.

Please remember that civility is required.  I've been removing personal comments by multiple people (despite an earlier comment to the contrary).  More pruning will take place as I review.  Posts that are designed to inflame will result in pruning and possible post approval or forum timeouts.

No personal comments, please, and remember that not every post has to be responded to.  And also, that there are plenty of other forums; if someone does not find KBoards of value, perhaps this is not the best place for you.

Thank you.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2016)

justphil said:


> ...Yes, that's right, boys and girls. Amazon keeps your non-KDP book *INVISIBLE EVEN IF SOMEONE SEARCHES FOR IT BY EXACT TITLE.*


It's rather simple, if you book is not published via KDP then *yes* it won't appear on Amazon's search results. Want to know why? There's no mystery, secret society or conspiracy going on - it's because your book isn't published on Amazon.

*gasp* how is that possible? If you want your book to appear on Amazon & in search results you first have to publish it via KDP. Then you elect whether you want to go into Select or not. You appear to be arguing that books not published via Amazon/KDP don't appear in Amazon search results, which is kind of a no-brainer...


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

dianapersaud said:


> KDP recently sent out an email saying authors should categorize their works correctly. I'm sure they're cleaning up the keyword stuffing.


What email is this? I haven't receive one, and would love to know more?


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## Wolfpack (Jun 20, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm reviewing this thread; I've left it open so far but I may have to lock it while I do some pruning.
> 
> ...


 Thank you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The Dancing Squirrel said:


> He left out the word "Select" by accident. Let it go.


Yes, please. Let's get back on topic.

Betsy


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2016)

The Dancing Squirrel said:


> He left out the word "Select" by accident. Let it go.


Actually he was arguing that KDP and KU were both services that only pushed their own titles. Not understanding the difference between KDP and Select is a common mistake from newbies who haven't published before.

And the comment is still accurate, if you search Amazon for a non-KDP title then it won't appear. I have no idea how many authors publish on other platforms but not Amazon, that could be an interesting discussion for another thread.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Lisa_Blackwood said:


> Edit: btw, how the heck do I make the image smaller.


You can give it a width attribute in the image tag. img width=500 or whatever you like


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## RedAlert (May 15, 2015)

Monique said:


> Title keyword stuffing is against TOS and manipulates search. It's also ugly and clutters search. Keyword stuffing in a description is pointless; descriptions are not searchable. Most keywords should be used in the backend metadata where there is a field for them.


 Thank you for your reply. So, basically, if there is a designated spot for stuff, it's good. Any other searchable field may not be appropriate for stuff. I wonder why Amazon doesn't have code written to deny titles with such bloat. I 'm not so concerned with it; but, I probably wouldn't open the title, either. I guess such authors don't care about that if it gets a better rank.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

As I indicated way upthread, we've had folks post here a couple times before whose books would not show up, even with a direct search on the title. It turned out to be some weird backend problem with Amazon. If your book won't show up when you search on the exact title, something is wrong, and you should write to KDP about it.*

Remember Okham's Razor: the explanation with the fewest moving parts is usually the right one. "Problem with a book page's code"? Simple. "Secret Amazon conspiracy to delete non-Select books from search results that, for mysterious reasons, is only being applied to my book"? Complicated.

*Keep in mind that if your book has a common title, it may appear on p. 20 of a search, after a whole bunch of things with the same title and with different titles that happen to be selling better or to be more like what Amazon's search thinks you're likely to want. An example is Faith Miller's _Forever Love_ and Melissa Keir's _Forever Love_, appearing here on p. 13 of a search on "forever love," following many other books also titled _Forever Love_ and many, many, many books *not *titled _Forever Love_. Here's one on p. 51 of the same search (I randomly skipped ahead). I bet I'd find them all the way out to p. 151, if I checked.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Gator said:


> When the scammers republish their KU eBooks, they intentionally get a new ASIN. A new eBook in Amazon's KU system with no history gets up to 5 free days or up to 7 Kindle Countdown days for the next 90-day enrollment period. Use up 5 free days, unpublish, rinse, and repeat.


Interestingly, Goodreads shows the complete history of ASINs, since each new one registers as a separate edition, so you can see just how often some of these books are republished. Once a month is typical.


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## Benarroch (Apr 18, 2016)

lilywhite said:


> I unclicked all my Select renewal boxes, and emailed Jeff Bezos to tell him so. (Got the standard phone call then email reply from Executive Relations wanting to reach me but I'm done talking to them. It's just platitudes.) I said straight out in my email that I don't sell enough that it's going to matter to Amazon, but I won't play the game anymore.


Many of us dont like KU, but... If you opt out your rank sales will drop very quickly. There is something bizarre about KU, if someone reads 1 page it counts as a sale for your sales rank (I have very few titles moving in KU so I can see it even when there is very few page read during a day). Rank sales drop also means less sale.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Benarroch said:


> Many of us dont like KU, but... If you opt out your rank sales will drop very quickly. There is something bizarre about KU, if someone reads 1 page it counts as a sale for your sales rank (I have very few titles moving in KU so I can see it even when there is very few page read during a day). Rank sales drop also means less sale.


Untrue. Your ranking changes when someone borrow, not when they read.

I pulled some books out in January. My rankings haven't gone down at all, but I've had a heck of a lot more sales, because my sales on other sites have been roughly equal to Amazon sales. The difference is probably that I've always been mostly wide anyway.


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## Stevie O (Apr 17, 2016)

So are we being advised to unpublish and republish to take advantage of KDP promotions? Or is it frowned on, I'm a newbie and am a bit overwhelmed with how best to self-publicise ( I have a marketing fund of zero ) on the internet, I was hoping to make enough off sales to put back into paid advertising, but it's a minefield!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Stevie O said:


> So are we being advised to unpublish and republish to take advantage of KDP promotions?


No, it's an exploit. Write more books. When you have 4, create a bundle of the first 3 and make book 1 really cheap. Then promote book 1.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> We were talking about the free list hijack over Easter weekend in another group. It's unbelievable. I think Amazon is going to drop the cap further for the KU page reads and possibly disallow bundling altogether in the next several months. I see them going the "one title" per book route. The crying we will hear then will be unbelievable. I'm actually all for that. I have some omnibuses but I think the best thing to do is drop the cap to 1,000 and make it so only single titles are allowed in KDP. Bundling the same books over and over again only hurts the store, so I think it's next to go.


I really doubt Amazon would do this. They don't lose money from KU scammers, so there's no reason for them to hurt themselves by limiting bundles. They have no problem passing the loss onto us writers.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Actually, it does hurt Amazon. Readers are going elsewhere for their book recommendations, meaning they're spending less time on Amazon, and spending less money on Amazon.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> As I indicated way upthread, we've had folks post here a couple times before whose books would not show up, even with a direct search on the title. It turned out to be some weird backend problem with Amazon. If your book won't show up when you search on the exact title, something is wrong, and you should write to KDP about it.*
> 
> Remember Okham's Razor: the explanation with the fewest moving parts is usually the right one. "Problem with a book page's code"? Simple. "Secret Amazon conspiracy to delete non-Select books from search results that, for mysterious reasons, is only being applied to my book"? Complicated.
> 
> *Keep in mind that if your book has a common title, it may appear on p. 20 of a search, after a whole bunch of things with the same title and with different titles that happen to be selling better or to be more like what Amazon's search thinks you're likely to want. An example is Faith Miller's _Forever Love_ and Melissa Keir's _Forever Love_, appearing here on p. 13 of a search on "forever love," following many other books also titled _Forever Love_ and many, many, many books *not *titled _Forever Love_. Here's one on p. 51 of the same search (I randomly skipped ahead). I bet I'd find them all the way out to p. 151, if I checked.


Correct. First of all, "searching" isn't the way most people browse books on Amazon. Second, Amazon doesn't remove books not in KU from search. The problems are that Amazon's search algorithm is horrible, so if you're not seeing your books come up in search, it's just because Amazon isn't able to properly create a search algorithm, and their unwinnable war with Google prevents them from leasing Google's search algo like most other normal companies do.

Books in KU MAY (likely DO) have their search rank heightened by being in KU, since the silly search algo is just another poplist. So, if Amazon is weighting a borrow higher than a sale in the algo, your nonKU book will have a lower position in search results. This is all impossible to test because search results and pop algos also take into account browsing/buy history so it's different for everyone.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Actually, it does hurt Amazon. Readers are going elsewhere for their book recommendations, meaning they're spending less time on Amazon, and spending less money on Amazon.


I highly doubt Amazon is losing any money because of this. I'd love to see some actual statistics on it. Personally, the fact that Amazon has left such an easily fixable problem linger for so long tells me that they aren't actually losing money because of it.


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## PermaStudent (Apr 21, 2015)

Briteka said:


> I really doubt Amazon would do this. They don't lose money from KU scammers, so there's no reason for them to hurt themselves by limiting bundles. They have no problem passing the loss onto us writers.


I think they must be losing money because of it, but the figure doesn't outweigh the cost of fixing anything yet. Or, they may already be playing with ways of discouraging scams, and they aren't being very public about about it to discourage crowdsourcing even more ways to exploit new loopholes.

They know that most authors have a figure where the grass starts to look greener going wide, and I fully believe they complement the overall KU fund for each payout to keep the per page payout from plummeting *too* low, even though some of that cash is going to scams they didn't catch in time. So they are losing money--they're throwing money instead of fixes at the problem for now --but it's an acceptable loss to them compared to the cost of fixing the problem... for now.


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## TellestAuthor (Apr 2, 2012)

Briteka said:


> I highly doubt Amazon is losing any money because of this. I'd love to see some actual statistics on it. Personally, the fact that Amazon has left such an easily fixable problem linger for so long tells me that they aren't actually losing money because of it.


Wouldn't they technically be losing money to the scammers who are scamming them out of the KU fund each month?


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## chalice (Jan 5, 2013)

*And here I was thinking there was just no way of gaming the new KU2.0 system. Well I stand corrected now. I had no ideas just how bad this whole thing was.

Gorgeous Lucky B,
Shana Jahsinta Walters.
*


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Amazon isn't losing money on this.. they make money. Those click-farms are buying tons of KU subs in order to game the system, as has already been pointed out. So for Amazon it's not a real crisis -- yet. 

They will have to do something eventually. Either when the press gets bad or if the scammers start using stolen credit cards to subscribe with. Scammers always get greedy and go to far.  You can count on it.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Urban Mogul said:


> Amazon isn't losing money on this.. they make money. Those click-farms are buying tons of KU subs in order to game the system, as has already been pointed out. So for Amazon it's not a real crisis -- yet.


I'm not sure I agree. Yes they will need dozens or 100s of subscriptions, but those 100's of people are clicking on 1000s of books each. A subscription is only $10. Seven books later, and that's all gone. Now imagine each one is clicking 700 times or more a month.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Yes. Even though the KU pot theoretically is a fixed expense, the fact is that every month without fail Amazon jacks up the pot so that they pay out an amount per page that they have pre-determined.


I'd disagree. There's a certain segment of the self-published author population that will take whatever Amazon gives them. Amazon could pay you a penny a buy, and there would be self-publishing cheerleaders writing blog posts and doing interviews convincing everyone that this is a great thing. We've already seen this in action with KU2 and certain short story writers who lost thousands a month posting blog posts about how KU2 is the best thing ever.

Amazon will never lose those people, and they create enough content to keep KU afloat for subscribers.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I'm not sure I agree. Yes they will need dozens or 100s of subscriptions, but those 100's of people are clicking on 1000s of books each. A subscription is only $10. Seven books later, and that's all gone. Now imagine each one is clicking 700 times or more a month.


I don't think they lose money but the fraction of the pool that goes to actual real books with actual real readers diminishes. But I'm sure they're not happy about it. What worries me is that the increasing size of the pool might just be to accommodate these books as opposed to real books. It's hard to say what percentage of the monthly payout is going to real books and not scam books.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

*************


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## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I'm not sure I agree. Yes they will need dozens or 100s of subscriptions, but those 100's of people are clicking on 1000s of books each. A subscription is only $10. Seven books later, and that's all gone. Now imagine each one is clicking 700 times or more a month.


Don't forget, it costs Amazon next to nothing to deliver a book to a Kindle - the file isn't a product that needs shipping, or something that needs creating. It's just electrons. Theoretically, seven books that otherwise would have been bought would be lost money, but let's not kid ourselves--even click-farmers wouldn't be *buying* these books otherwise. So basically, what you have here is a producer (of crap) and a bunch of consumers (of crap). If the ratio is 1 producer to 1000 click-farm accounts, that's $10,000 paid *to* Amazon. Amazon pays *out* a set fee every month, which they were going to be paying anyway as the "cost of doing business." They'd pay out the same set pot to a thousand authors or ten million authors.

Don't forget, either, that Amazon plays a long game. It's not just about getting people to buy books on Amazon (and hasn't been for years). It's about getting people to the Amazon site, and ecosystem, where they will remember, "Oh yeah, I need to buy diapers and dish soap again, and there's a thing coming up where I need a dress, and the room could use some curtains and ooh, look! Tablets on sale, and ooh, is that daily deal for a trampoline still good?" The book is just the loss leader to get them in the door. And authors in KU are an army of social proof saying, "get my book only at Amazon (and while you're there, you can get paper towels and a pool table, too)." Amazon maintains trusted vendor the same way Walmart does - you're more likely to find everything you need there, than you are at a smaller store, so why bother with the smaller store at all? For Amazon to worry about a ten-buck reading account checking out electrons when a portion of those ten-buck accounts will net thousands of dollars in purchases, plus Prime subscriptions, etc., it's worth it. Essentially, their CPC on this advertising scheme is ten bucks a pop.

It would take a long time for the Zon to feel a real negative dent in the ecosystem. Enough top-selling authors would have to leave KU, combined with KU subscribers who'd have to drop subscriptions *and* stop buying other stuff there as well. What might happen long before that is that KU becomes known among readers as stuff to avoid. If the customer experience is consistently low-quality enough (and it won't be for awhile, because when all the books are functionally free, consumer behavior suggests a higher tolerance for stuff you don't want, because hey free) for long enough, the KU brand will take on long-term damage. Between now and then, however, a lot of scammers are going to be getting very rich off Amazon's rain-maker.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Athena Grayson said:


> What might happen long before that is that KU becomes known among readers as stuff to avoid. If the customer experience is consistently low-quality enough (and it won't be for awhile, because when all the books are functionally free, consumer behavior suggests a higher tolerance for stuff you don't want, because hey free) for long enough, the KU brand will take on long-term damage.


It is only free once you've paid. If you're not finding things that are worth continuing a monthly subscription, you stop paying for it.

It depends on what people want to read, how easy it is to find, and how satisfying a read it is. But it has become more difficult to find the valuable reads.

Now, people like my mom: if she reads two audiobooks a month on KU, she feels like she's gotten a good deal. She likes audiobooks, and I agree, they're awesome.

For someone like me, who is finding less and less I like to read in my usual genre (gay romance - filled up with stuff I don't like lately), but who enjoys lots of other genres as well (UF and mystery, non fiction, etc), it might be worth it to stay in.

For someone who reads a genre that's been filled up with crap or scams and ISN'T finding their money's worth, then yes, they're going to stop renewing _because even 10 dollars a month isn't nothing to a lot of people_, especially if they're dissatisfied with the choices.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Amazon has a whole usually posts losses, not profits anyway. It was big news when they actually posted a profit when Wall Street was expecting another loss:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/23/investing/amazon-earnings-profit/

Seems like subscriptions are key so if they start losing a lot of KU members because of scams/crappy products then maybe they'll take a stronger stance to fix it. I would imagine in the whole scheme of things KU is a small sliver of their business. They dominate the ebook market so they're more focused on taking some of that market share from Netflix and fighting WalMart.

All guesses, of course. We're all just guessing and speculating, but it's interesting and fun.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I'm pretty sure Amazon created Kindle Unlimited as an advertising scheme to draw real customers into the store and sell them TVs and sporting equipment and clothes and everything. The click farmers aren't buying anything. Click farmers are just a waste of Amazon's advertising dollars put into KU.
> 
> Amazon is losing money because of the scammers.


That's true and on consideration of your point I agree. But I'd politely call KU customers real customers


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

There is one thing where Amazon can lose, big time, and it's what all companies are afraid of losing: reputation.

If enough customers write (and complain publicly, like, in major newspapers) about crap books in KU, and it becomes an internet meme that KU is full of google-translated and plagiarised crap, or they're threatened with major law suits or major publicity cases, they will do something. Until that time, they'll ignore it.

We can do something: take control of our own audience. Send them where you want them. Stop relying on retailer algorithms to do the work for you, because in this climate, it's likely that they won't.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Sure the scams suck.

I read somewhere last week that Amazon now has an estimated 61 million signed up to Prime. I'm guessing that they'd like similar numbers of KU subscribers at $9.99 per pop every month, (do the math) so I doubt they introduced KU just to get customers to buy TVs. They do that anyway with whatever they do. In itself, KU is a stand alone business model to make a profit, otherwise they wouldn't have rolled it out almost worlwide after the initial trial.

You can bet your bottom dollar that they are aware of the situation, and just like they have done with reviews, they'll find a way to zap the scam books and click farms and those risking it by adding stuff to titles and links at the front pointing to back matter to beat the system and which are against their TOC. If they can auto make reviews disappear, it won't be long before they run a similar auto function to get rid of scam books and click farms, because it is in their interests to do so, or they risk losing subscribers. If nothing else, Amazon are not stupid.

I won't go wide because of the scams as it would be just sour grapes, because then I wouldn't get anything borrowed, or sales after the free days and at the moment borrows acount for 80% of my income. I could see the sense in going wide before as my sales were almost none existent.  So sorry, unless you are not getting reasonable borrows, I can't see the point of  me going wide to bite off the hand that feeds me.


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## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

If Amazon can figure this one out, not only will the scammers not get paid the money they think they earned--they will also be out their multi-K investment in their multiple $9.99/month KU accounts used to click.

Is this the first scam that actually requires an initial monetary investment on the scammer's end?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> If enough customers write (and complain publicly, like, in major newspapers) about crap books in KU, and it becomes an internet meme that KU is full of google-translated and plagiarised crap, or they're threatened with major law suits or major publicity cases, they will do something. Until that time, they'll ignore it.


Actually, right before KU2 came out, in Kindle Unlimited Facebook posts the comments were a riot of "This is Kindle LIMITED don't get it!" So yes, I think they'll pay attention when more Kindle Unlimited subscribers start dropping out.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

GrandFenwick said:


> Is this the first scam that actually requires an initial monetary investment on the scammer's end?


KU is free for the first month. New account, new freebie month. Rinse, and repeat.


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## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

Yikes. That's even more depressing. What about having to pay the clickers?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

GrandFenwick said:


> Yikes. That's even more depressing. What about having to pay the clickers?


Click farms are located in nations where wages are extremely low.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

The latest crop in Fantasy. Looks like they're getting even lazier and increasing output. Scroll through the first few pages of the latest books to grace KU.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A25%2Cn%3A16190%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_n_publication_date%3A1250226011%2Cp_n_feature_twenty_browse-bin%3A13054657011&bbn=16190&sort=date-desc-rank&unfiltered=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1461088531


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

The Argument's Viscount. That one is missing in my collection of historical romances. And its written by Esteban. A Furry one at that.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Atunah said:


> The Argument's Viscount. That one is missing in my collection of historical romances. And its written by Esteban. A Furry one at that.


A classic in the making!


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2016)

Hurts. My. Eyes.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Atunah said:


> The Argument's Viscount. That one is missing in my collection of historical romances.


Book Description:

_There is certainly an urban area inside the clouds above a spot where you can find the human beings of older. Today, all people live inside the clouds and the ones tend to be few. A lot of the globe kept once the area turned uninhabitable. Worldwide is filled with strategy and also the sole responses will come._


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

My significant other texted me today, horrified about the KU scams he'd just read about on slashdot (major tech news site that's been around forever). So word is spreading, and Amazon's not looking good.


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## C. E. Stocker (Sep 18, 2014)

This just gets depressinger and depressinger.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

That is so weird ... just too patently obviously WRONG that I'm wondering -- do Amazon execs ever actually LOOK in their own bookstore? I mean, does not one single suit pop in for a quick look-see?

They've got bigger problems than they know. I think the rot is within the company. Oy, they got troubles.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Monique said:


> A classic in the making!


 The opening hook is awesome. I want to know what happens to that ingested Dad! And what will happen to his poor pals! I'll be up all night finding out.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

KeraEmory said:


> My significant other texted me today, horrified about the KU scams he'd just read about on slashdot (major tech news site that's been around forever). So word is spreading, and Amazon's not looking good.


This brings me a bit of relief, actually. Spreading the word is a good start.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> The opening hook is awesome. I want to know what happens to that ingested Dad! And what will happen to his poor pals! I'll be up all night finding out.


Hehehe.

Somehow, Amazon's crack spellcheck and quality assurance missed that.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

doolittle03 said:


> That is so weird ... just too patently obviously WRONG that I'm wondering -- do Amazon execs ever actually LOOK in their own bookstore? I mean, does not one single suit pop in for a quick look-see?
> 
> They've got bigger problems than they know. I think the rot is within the company. Oy, they got troubles.


Books are widgets. As long as sales and borrows continue to grow, they don't give a flying leap at a rolling donut which widgets in particular they sell. Remember, this is a company that doesn't care about making a profit. The only thing that matters to them is growth.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Decon said:


> I read somewhere last week that Amazon now has an estimated 61 million signed up to Prime. I'm guessing that they'd like similar numbers of KU subscribers at $9.99 per pop every month, (do the math) so I doubt they introduced KU just to get customers to buy TVs. They do that anyway with whatever they do. In itself, KU is a stand alone business model to make a profit, otherwise they wouldn't have rolled it out almost worlwide after the initial trial.


I agree with Cherise. As I recall, Amazon introduced KU to lure customers into purchasing Prime. It was a brilliant marketing move. Customers who have Prime spend, on average, at least $500 more a year on Amazon than people who don't have Prime.


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## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

Maybe we can make up a drinking game...see how many shots it takes before some of these descriptions make sense. I'm not sure there's enough alcohol in the world for some of them. 

Then there's most of a page with covers that are just images. No titles, not author names and I'm sure the titles came from one of those random title generators. 

Combat of the Dauntless Vassal
Competition of the Clever Miners


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Marian said:


> I agree with Cherise. As I recall, Amazon introduced KU to lure customers into purchasing Prime. It was a brilliant marketing move. Customers who have Prime spend, on average, at least $500 more a year on Amazon than people who don't have Prime.


I'm sure they want to promote Prime, but it's not only about Prime. Just yesterday I heard they were rolling out a lower-tied video-streaming subscription that doesn't include Prime's two-day delivery of physical products. They've bought into the subscription model big time, I think.


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## lisamaliga (Oct 28, 2010)

Alan Petersen said:


> The opening hook is awesome. I want to know what happens to that ingested Dad! And what will happen to his poor pals! I'll be up all night finding out.


I'm going to guess not too much.

However, I think the book should be in this new category:
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Horror > Dark Fantasy > Gibberish


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Although I am sure Jeff Bezos is busy with other things, I think he'll be seriously ticked off when this crazy scamming business hits his radar.  He's known to be a lover of books and an avid reader. Add to that his wife is a writer. 

I don't think he'll be happy--if it ever reaches his ears and eyes--to find his core business, the book business that started it all, riddled with dishonesty and con-writers. Just sayin' . . .


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Marian said:


> As I recall, Amazon introduced KU to lure customers into purchasing Prime.


KU =/= Prime.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

EC Sheedy said:


> Although I am sure Jeff Bezos is busy with other things, I think he'll be seriously ticked off when this crazy scamming business hits his radar. He's known to be a lover of books and an avid reader. Add to that his wife is a writer.
> 
> I don't think he'll be happy--if it ever reaches his ears and eyes--to find his core business, the book business that started it all, riddled with dishonesty and con-writers. Just sayin' . . .


Do you genuinely think no one's told him yet?


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

lilywhite said:


> Do you genuinely think no one's told him yet?


No doubt they have, but it's a long way from the penthouse to the boiler room.

I guess my thinking is too narrow, but if this scamming crap is unwelcome on the Amazon platform, I think he/they/it will work to find a way to stop it or at least mitigate it. And it will take more time to show results than we would like. If the crap is welcome, the spammola is here to stay.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

lisamaliga said:


> I'm going to guess not too much.
> 
> However, I think the book should be in this new category:
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Horror > Dark Fantasy > Gibberish


LOL. That would be so awesome for these books. Then we could easily filter them out of our searches.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## cvwriter (May 16, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> Books are widgets. As long as sales and borrows continue to grow, they don't give a flying leap at a rolling donut which widgets in particular they sell.


Unless there is side boob. Carlos F. is all on top of that, ready to pounce with his whack-a-mole hammer.


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## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

I miss the days when customers could tag a book.

Although between "The Argument's Viscount" and one I found on the next page, "The Bridge of the Lips" where the main character, Jodie, huffs, "Body weight prospect."

It might be a fun thing to crowdsource one of these and figure out the synonyms of the original books they were stolen from, so that we could let the authors know just how terribly their prose was mangled in pursuit of a buck. And maybe Amazon might do something.

Heh...body weight prospect that'll happen


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm sure they want to promote Prime, but it's not only about Prime. Just yesterday I heard they were rolling out a lower-tied video-streaming subscription that doesn't include Prime's two-day delivery of physical products. They've bought into the subscription model big time, I think.


The video streaming is also about Prime, because Prime is where the money is. They are hoping the video streaming will be as strong a lure as the books. Their announcement yesterday that they were adding a video-streaming subscription service was carefully timed and priced. Amazon is offering the streaming service for one dollar less than Netflix, and yesterday Netflix was scheduled to give a quarterly earnings report after the market closed. The price of Netflix stock dropped in the morning immediately after Amazon's announcement. Netflix didn't have an encouraging earnings report after the market closed, and the stock price tanked. Even though some figures were positive, analysts were all looking at the Amazon threat to Netflix. This is cutthroat business in the big leagues. The scammers may be upsetting to authors, but they are small change to Amazon.


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

So Amazon is going to offer a competing streaming video service that beats Netflix on price ($8.99 vs $9.99) while Netflix is paying them to use their cloud service for their own video streaming?

No wonder Amazon doesn't care about a few KU scammers.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> The opening hook is awesome. I want to know what happens to that ingested Dad! And what will happen to his poor pals! I'll be up all night finding out.


Many splendor. Much big happy keeping blue. King me!


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

ReGina W said:


> Maybe we can make up a drinking game...see how many shots it takes before some of these descriptions make sense. I'm not sure there's enough alcohol in the world for some of them.
> 
> Then there's most of a page with covers that are just images. No titles, not author names and I'm sure the titles came from one of those random title generators.
> 
> ...


As someone who uses random title generators for inspiration, I guarantee I've gotten some of these titles in the past.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Marian said:


> I agree with Cherise. As I recall, Amazon introduced KU to lure customers into purchasing Prime. It was a brilliant marketing move. Customers who have Prime spend, on average, at least $500 more a year on Amazon than people who don't have Prime.


Except:

From a reader/customer point of view, one does not have to be a prime member to subscribe to KU. Nor does one have to subscribe to KU to be a Prime member.

Prime members DO GET one free borrow each month. They actually call it KOLL -- Kindle Owners Lending Library -- and the set of books is nearly congruent between it and KU. With the KOLL, though, you can't borrow through your computer or a kindle app, you have to do it from a kindle (or Fire) device.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2016)

Athena Grayson said:


> Although between "The Argument's Viscount" and one I found on the next page, "The Bridge of the Lips" where the main character, Jodie, huffs, "Body weight prospect."


How is this allowed on Amazon? It seems Mrs. Bezos is writing under a pen name. Ooops!


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

False advertisement. There doesn't seem to be a Viscount in "The Argument's Viscount" Not even a lowly Baron in sight. No Lord and no Sir. I am not impressed indeed. *sniffs.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I was perusing the latest comments of Anne Christy's post about this (http://www.annchristy.com/ku-scammers-on-amazon-what-you-need-to-know/) and I noticed Brady Dale of the NY Observer left a comment reaching out since he's writing an article based on her blog post:










So looks like there might some more articles about this that will force Amazon to do something from a PR-perspective. Let's just hope it's not one of their kneejerk reactions that ends up with real authors as collateral damage.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2016)

I hope so! The last time there was a KU brouhaha, the Holly Ward leaving KU issue, they quoted me and several others on Kboards in the New York Times.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> There is one thing where Amazon can lose, big time, and it's what all companies are afraid of losing: reputation.
> 
> If enough customers write (and complain publicly, like, in major newspapers) about crap books in KU, and it becomes an internet meme that KU is full of google-translated and plagiarised crap, or they're threatened with major law suits or major publicity cases, they will do something. Until that time, they'll ignore it.
> 
> We can do something: take control of our own audience. Send them where you want them. Stop relying on retailer algorithms to do the work for you, because in this climate, it's likely that they won't.


Any suggestion of some keywords to use when we complain? Since most of us can't/won't/would be pointless to send letters to our local newspapers about this, maybe we can flood social media with news about it instead. We can all touch on some common points and post and share and get the story out there.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> So looks like there might some more articles about this that will force Amazon to do something from a PR-perspective. Let's just hope it's not one of their kneejerk reactions that ends up with real authors as collateral damage.


If Amazon's history is any indication, I think we can count on the collateral damage, but the scammers will bounce right back with the next scam.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

As a reader, I think scammers have completely taken over Amazon. (Not just KU)

Copy and pasted material from investopedia outranks real investment professional's books. Stolen recipes lifted from popular cookbooks and repackaged outrank real chef's cookbooks. Bundles that are essentially the same stories, just put in a different order are sold as different titles. Romance and smut set in ancient Rome outrank authentic historical fiction titles in the historical fiction category. The affiliate link loaded book is even worse. Most consumers are now aware of the dozens of other ways Amazon is being ruined by internet marketers and hustlers.

8 of the last 10 non fiction e-books I bought were totally ripped off content. The last 5 fiction books I purchased capitalized job titles and words the author felt were important. Plus, the gaping plot holes mixed with the obvious  "rush" to publish ruined the stories. Apparently, Amazon has yet to find a way to vet their content, and it seems to be getting worse not better. Sorry for the reader's rant, but I will be going to the library for my next book. The party is over.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Monique said:


> The latest crop in Fantasy. Looks like they're getting even lazier and increasing output. Scroll through the first few pages of the latest books to grace KU.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Cn%3A%211000%2Cn%3A25%2Cn%3A16190%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A618073011%2Cp_n_publication_date%3A1250226011%2Cp_n_feature_twenty_browse-bin%3A13054657011&bbn=16190&sort=date-desc-rank&unfiltered=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1461088531


No, you guys just don't understand. Esteban Furry is the finest literary voice of our generation. Centuries from now, there will be entire graduate seminars devoted to study of The Argument's Viscount.


----------



## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Except:
> 
> From a reader/customer point of view, one does not have to be a prime member to subscribe to KU. Nor does one have to subscribe to KU to be a Prime member.
> 
> Prime members DO GET one free borrow each month. They actually call it KOLL -- Kindle Owners Lending Library -- and the set of books is nearly congruent between it and KU. With the KOLL, though, you can't borrow through your computer or a kindle app, you have to do it from a kindle (or Fire) device.


I'm aware that you don't have to be a member of Prime if you subscribe to KU. They are two separate entities. But Amazon used KU as a lure to increase Prime membership, and it was very successful.


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> I noticed Brady Dale of the NY Observer left a comment reaching out since he's writing an article based on her blog post:


https://twitter.com/BradyDale/status/722451723722301441

He's trying to get in touch with JA Konrath as well.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Perry Constantine said:


> No, you guys just don't understand. Esteban Furry is the finest literary voice of our generation. Centuries from now, there will be entire graduate seminars devoted to study of The Argument's Viscount.


It wasn't on the first couple of pages for me. I had to search for it. And my gods and goddesses, what a gem.



> I check out a couple of peachy lips, the backside a person curled at the specifically against my tooth softly trying to keep it there. My violet eyes present my thoughts as well, even though their apparent fading shades are thankful from the moistness of my exasperation greying the window. The effects contributes in the direction of my facial area of sadness, crowned off with my midnight hair that collaborates with the occasional appear of teasing moonlight at the rear of the silver, smoky tendrils in just the sky.


I don't know if that's supposed to be erotica or dentistry, but I've got chills.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Lefevre said:


> As a reader, I think scammers have completely taken over Amazon. (Not just KU)
> 
> Copy and pasted material from investopedia outranks real investment professional's books. Stolen recipes lifted from popular cookbooks and repackaged outrank real chefs cookbooks. Bundles that are essentially the same stories, just put in different order and sold as different titles. Romance and smut set in ancient Rome outrank authentic historical fiction titles in the historical fiction category. There are dozens of other ways Amazon is being ruined by internet marketers and hustlers.
> 
> 8 of the last 10 non fiction e-books I bought were totally ripped off content. The last 5 fiction books I purchased capitalized job titles and words the author felt were important. Plus, the gaping plot holes mixed with the obvious "rush" to publish ruined the stories. Apparently, Amazon has yet to find a way to vet their content, and it seems to be getting worse not better. Sorry for the reader's rant. I will be going to the library for my next book.


No, I think you'll find this is ONLY a KU problem. At least, a problem KU created. If the store had stuck to just being a store and not a library, none of this would be happening. KU and this borrow nonsense gives these people the incentive to throw junk up. You won't find books like this in any other store. That tells you something.

I'm not sorry this is happening. I stopped caring about what Amazon was doing when they introduced this flawed program and stole visibility from non-KU books/authors. If you're going to turn around and make such a bold move, you'd better make damn sure your system functions impeccably. They didn't, and now everyone's suffering.

Now we all get to sit back and watch them destroy the ebook industry all because they can't admit they were wrong, and that the system doesn't work.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> I noticed Brady Dale of the NY Observer left a comment reaching out since he's writing an article based on her blog post:
> ...
> So looks like there might some more articles about this that will force Amazon to do something from a PR-perspective. Let's just hope it's not one of their kneejerk reactions that ends up with real authors as collateral damage.


Well, except...the Observer online. He's also reached out to others not yet mentioned here. Which pretty much follows the format of one of the other posts he did earlier about KU. Get some 50-word sound bytes from a few authors and string them together into something that can only loosely be considered an article. Best guess is that this is not likely to be hard-hitting journalism. Or fact-checked. Maybe I'll be surprised. But not holding my breath.


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## Lefevre (Feb 1, 2014)

Lady Vine said:


> No, I think you'll find this is ONLY a KU problem. At least, a problem KU created. If the store had stuck to just being a store and not a library, none of this would be happening. KU and this borrow nonsense gives these people the incentive to throw junk up. You won't find books like this in any other store. That tells you something.
> 
> I'm not sorry this is happening. I stopped caring about what Amazon was doing when they introduced this flawed program and stole visibility from non-KU books/authors. If you're going to turn around and make such a bold move, you'd better make damn sure your system functions impeccably. They didn't, and now everyone's suffering.
> 
> Now we all get to sit back and watch them destroy the ebook industry all because they can't admit they were wrong, and that the system doesn't work.


Amazon is a corporation and not a democracy. It seems pretty obvious that Amazon could care less what authors or consumers think. The only real power you have as a consumer is to vote with your dollar..Even though my book dollars are going to stay in my pocket, I think Amazon will still allow the scams to continue. I hate to be so dour, but at this point it might better if they tore it down and built the whole thing over again. This time with some constraints.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

PhoenixS said:


> Well, except...the Observer online. He's also reached out to others not yet mentioned here. Which pretty much follows the format of one of the other posts he did earlier about KU. Get some 50-word sound bytes from a few authors and string them together into something that can only loosely be considered an article. Best guess is that this is not likely to be hard-hitting journalism. Or fact-checked. Maybe I'll be surprised. But not holding my breath.


Fiddlesticks. Just when I was about to go find a good celebration GIF.


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## GrandFenwick (Aug 24, 2015)

I tweeted the story at LATimes and NYTimesBooks from a couple of Twitter accounts. Hopefully someone listens.

In the meantime, I've been clicking the little WOULD YOU LIKE TO REPORT THIS BOOK thing at the bottom of the product pages of these books.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Monique said:


> Hehehe.
> 
> Somehow, Amazon's crack spellcheck and quality assurance missed that.





lisamaliga said:


> I'm going to guess not too much.
> 
> However, I think the book should be in this new category:
> Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Horror > Dark Fantasy > Gibberish


Perhaps Kindle Store>Gibberish would be a quicker search


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Fiddlesticks. Just when I was about to go find a good celebration GIF.


Slashdot is far more popular than the Observer online.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Marian said:


> I'm aware that you don't have to be a member of Prime if you subscribe to KU. They are two separate entities. But Amazon used KU as a lure to increase Prime membership, and it was very successful.


It never felt that way to me. Seems to me they promote KU as KU and promote Prime as Prime. The always have heavily promoted KU and Prime both to new Kindle or Fire purchasers, sometimes offering discounts or free months as an enticement.

Though it is absolutely true that, in general, they'd like customers to be committed to Amazon in as many ways as possible -- which is why they have so many different programs: KU, Prime, the Dash buttons, Prime Pantry, customer coupons, grocery subscriptions, store credit card, Amazon Visa points, etc.

On topic: as a reader/customer, I don't see this whole KU scamming thing as necessarily a big black eye on Amazon. At least not so far. I've been around a while -- been an Amazon customer for 19 years -- and seen lots of things come and go. I suspect they're completely aware and working on it -- though it's certainly possible that they could work faster. 

That said, I think most run-of-the-mill customers don't see the scammy books because they don't do a lot of random browsing or searching. Customers who've been around a while, are getting recommendations based on what they've previously purchased, or from other sites -- especially if they are volume readers.

Given all that, some publicity would not go amiss because it is NOT FAIR that scammers claim a percentage of the payout pot that's meant for real authors. And it may make them work on the problem faster if their _customers_ begin to realize it's happening and express concerns. 

For me personally, if I do come across a book that's this sort of obvious scammy crap, I report it. And, for the record, we won't allow promotion here of that sort of 'book'.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Article published today http://observer.com/author/brady-dale/


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Decon said:


> Article published today http://observer.com/author/brady-dale/


It's a decent summary. Thanks for the post.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

MKK said:


> It's a decent summary. Thanks for the post.


Yup. And Publishers Weekly just shared the article on their Facebook feed, so hopefully it'll get some attention.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

SevenDays said:


> Yup. And Publishers Weekly just shared the article on their Facebook feed, so hopefully it'll get some attention.


That's a bit of good news.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Marian said:


> I'm aware that you don't have to be a member of Prime if you subscribe to KU. They are two separate entities. But Amazon used KU as a lure to increase Prime membership, and it was very successful.


Amazon promotes all their subscription services non-stop. I'm a prime member and until this month I was also a Fresh member ($299 per year) and they still hammer me to join KU. So it's not like they're using KU to join Prime they just want you to join everything they offer no matter what you sign up for or what you're not signed up for.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> Amazon promotes all their subscription services non-stop. I'm a prime member and until this month I was also a Fresh member ($299 per year) and they still hammer me to join KU. So it's not like they're using KU to join Prime they just want you to join everything they offer no matter what you sign up for or what you're not signed up for.


Ha, this is one reason I don't join programs. In fact, I rarely buy anything from Amazon.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Jena H said:


> Ha, this is one reason I don't join programs. In fact, I rarely buy anything from Amazon.


I am getting better at managing the communication. Amazon does have a place where you can check what they email you about and how often. It's huge with so many choices. I could stop all of it. Right now I mostly have the e-book mailings going since I see that as education from my self-publishing side.

I will admit, I like Amazon Prime. I have no plans to ending that subscription and we do order a lot from Amazon (aside from e-books). But, yes, they're very aggressive at marketing and selling stuff.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2016)

Great article in the Observer. I had never thought of privacy being the reason Amazon isn't counting actual pages read. It does make sense though. I agree that in that case they should let it work as it is working now. But it does mean that they have to start closing accounts of serial abusers. Their books aren't hard to find.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

MKK said:


> It's a decent summary. Thanks for the post.


I thought so too. Seemed to cover the gist of the problem and why Amazon isn't doing much about it. Kboards members were quoted heavily, that's cool. And as seven wrote up there, others sites like Publishers Weekly are picking it up!


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## Athena Grayson (Apr 4, 2011)

drno said:


> Great article in the Observer. I had never thought of privacy being the reason Amazon isn't counting actual pages read. It does make sense though. I agree that in that case they should let it work as it is working now. But it does mean that they have to start closing accounts of serial abusers. Their books aren't hard to find.


I did think of privacy, because that's one reason I hardly ever connect my e-ink kindle. Part of me does not want Amazon snooping at my reading material, or how fast I go through it, even if it would be convenient to sync across devices. I also don't want them broadcasting my notes without my express permission, because sometimes they're personal if I'm doing research, and I don't want that kind of stuff out there. My inner conspiracy theorist wondered if Amazon knew something like this would happen, and let it happen so that there'd be large-scale buy-in for people being okay with having their pages counted, their reading time logged, and their habits tracked. But my inner conspiracy theorist is overridden by my inner lazyarse, and realized that, evil empire they may be, this would still be a lot of work for an uncertain payoff.

Now I'm wondering...


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

That article did turn out better than I feared it would.
_Disclosure: I wasn't approached about it, but I know others who were, and some who declined._

As for privacy, anyone else remember when Amazon was posting parts of the books that customers had highlighted to the book's product pages? I wouldn't count on any expectations of privacy.

On a brighter note, I posted this over on The Passive Voice last evening in response to questions about whether bonuses are being paid to scammers, and thought I'd share here as it seems pertinent to the ongoing conversation:



> There have been a few of the black hatters who have claimed amounts of over $50K per month and provided screenshots of their Payments reports. Of course, those screenshots can be easily faked.
> 
> I DID see an author/publisher of NF titles (study guides misrepresenting the books in such a way to make the customer believe they were buying the real books and not "guides") who was on the January All-Stars list but who was removed from the list before it was updated. The blurbs for those guides have also *mostly* been updated to include warnings to the consumer that the titles are not the books.
> 
> ...


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> Amazon promotes all their subscription services non-stop. I'm a prime member and until this month I was also a Fresh member ($299 per year) and they still hammer me to join KU.


I've had an Amazon account since before the turn of the century, and, with one exception, Amazon doesn't actively promote Prime or KU to me. (I'm not in an area where Fresh is available, so I can see why that's not on the table.) I get email recommendations several times a week, but no specific Prime or KU subscription sales pitches. I am reminded that I can get free shipping with Prime every time I make a purchase, though.

They may be hammering you with subscription offers because if you let down your guard once, you'll probably do it again.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Athena Grayson said:


> I miss the days when customers could tag a book.
> 
> Although between "The Argument's Viscount" and one I found on the next page, "The Bridge of the Lips" where the main character, Jodie, huffs, "Body weight prospect."
> 
> ...


"Body weight prospect" could mean "Fat chance."

Just having some fun here.


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Bluebonnet said:


> "Body weight prospect" could mean "Fat chance."


Very nicely played...


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

So.....Scammers still good to go, but I get a Kindle Quality control email.

Because of TWO (yes, 2) typos. (One was 'to' instead of 'too' and the other was a went/when messup.) Don't get me wrong, it's a good feature and I have no problem fixing and uploading a revision. It was my bad for missing them in the first place. 

But....but...but...scammers can upload random strings of words and call them sentences......


::facepalm::


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Lisa_Blackwood said:


> So.....Scammers still good to go, but I get a Kindle Quality control email.
> 
> Because of TWO (yes, 2) typos. (One was 'to' instead of 'too' and the other was a went/when messup.) Don't get me wrong, it's a good feature and I have no problem fixing and uploading a revision. It was my bad for missing them in the first place.
> 
> ...


THIS

I find this sort of daftness very hard to get my head around, and it continues to erode my already minuscule level of trust that the left hand of Amazon knows what the right hand is doing. Nothing, and nothing, I see in the responses from KDP indicates otherwise.

"Change this one typo within five days, or we'll pull your book" while there are thousands and thousands of books out there that aren't even basic English, and not even mentioning all the poorly-edited shit that's put up that's actually *meant* to be a proper story.

But they target an author with two typos. Because someone reported it.

FREAKIN' COME ON, Amazon! It's time you stopped relying on your customers to be your quality control.

Oh no, that would look too much like you're Apple, and we can't have that.

*headdesk*


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

And don't forget the trad publishers uploading thousands of low quality scans of books from their back catalogs without making the slightest attempt to proof them. Those don't get yanked, either, no matter how many errors get reported.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

quick bump so it goes into my inbox. Sorry, but I haven't gone thru this thread.
OTOH.. I do know that Streitfield is following this debacle.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

When you realise how organised the scamming industry is, I don't see a way to stop it that won't kill KU. http://myeroticnotions.blogspot.com/2016/04/book-scammers-amazon-thruth.html after reading that, I think the best thing to do is shut KU down.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> When you realise how organised the scamming industry is, I don't see a way to stop it that won't kill KU. http://myeroticnotions.blogspot.com/2016/04/book-scammers-amazon-thruth.html after reading that, I think the best thing to do is shut KU down.


It works for them because:

1. There is a disconnect between money collected from subscribers and money paid to writers, and because this money is non-refundable
2. No real person checks these "books"

I've said this about a thousand times. The only way it works for other subscription services is because there is a real person vetting the quality of the material. The. Only. Way. End. Of.

But the scammers are scamming Amazon. We can just keep doing what we should have been doing all along: have mailing lists and make our own recommendation engines (aka "word of mouth") and populate our own alsobots on all platforms (this works not just on Amazon). What else do you think I'm doing with my promos? That sort of stuff is going to be come more and more important.

The future:

Author Co-ops with their own mailing lists. Some may even branch out into offering their own sales platforms. Give the reader vetted books that are actually real books and are actually in the right genre. *Amazon* is losing this battle, not us.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> It works for them because:
> 
> 1. There is a disconnect between money collected from subscribers and money paid to writers, and because this money is non-refundable
> 2. No real person checks these "books"
> ...


I agree they're only scamming Amazon, but because KU books share the same lists with the rest of us (both paid and free lists) the contamination spreads. Scammers are owning the top spots of certain lists. That makes them unattainable even to Bookbub promos.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> The future:
> 
> Author Co-ops with their own mailing lists. Some may even branch out into offering their own sales platforms. Give the reader vetted books that are actually real books and are actually in the right genre. *Amazon* is losing this battle, not us.


YES. I've only really geared up this year, and these types of promotions have been the easiest, cheapest and most effective for me as a writer. From a reader's point of view they must be a better option than trawling through pages of scammy books with titles as long as my forearm in categories where they don't belong and of questionable content. There's a reason Bookbub is so successful and we can do the same.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I agree they're only scamming Amazon, but because KU books share the same lists with the rest of us (both paid and free lists) the contamination spreads. Scammers are owning the top spots of certain lists. That makes them unattainable even to Bookbub promos.


I kinda wish people would get over being hung up about the top 100 whatever. Honestly, how long do you think it would take a reader to figure out that those lists are worthless when they're contaminated with scam books. Like, three seconds? Readers are not stupid. They'll look for alsobots and other mechanisms for recommendations. Not top 100s.

We must create our own visibility. It has always been thus on all platforms. The easy ride is over. Now bottoms up and get to work!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I kinda wish people would get over being hung up about the top 100 whatever. Honestly, how long do you think it would take a reader to figure out that those lists are worthless when they're contaminated with scam books. Like, three seconds? Readers are not stupid. They'll look for alsobots and other mechanisms for recommendations. Not top 100s.
> 
> We must create our own visibility. It has always been thus on all platforms. The easy ride is over. Now bottoms up and get to work!


That's what I mean. It makes them worthless. One less thing to make Amazon better than the competition. Don't forget, it was those lists that originally set Amazon apart on sales pages. Readers like me, would often browse them along with the sliders. I no longer do either one, because they are full of junk. I pick up fewer new authors now. I keep going back to old favourites.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

This story has now reached BoingBoing and The Consumerist. 
http://boingboing.net/2016/04/21/kindle-unlimited-is-being-floo.html 
https://consumerist.com/2016/04/20/amazon-unintentionally-paying-scammers-to-hand-you-1000-pages-of-crap-you-dont-read/

If you're discussing this on social media, can I suggest using #KUScam so it's easy to find what you're saying.


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

Ros_Jackson said:


> This story has now reached BoingBoing and The Consumerist.
> http://boingboing.net/2016/04/21/kindle-unlimited-is-being-floo.html
> https://consumerist.com/2016/04/20/amazon-unintentionally-paying-scammers-to-hand-you-1000-pages-of-crap-you-dont-read/
> 
> If you're discussing this on social media, can I suggest using #KUScam so it's easy to find what you're saying.


What's going on with the math in that Consumerist article?

"So mathematically, for an author to make $1000, Kindle Unlimited subscribers have to read about 16,700 pages of their work. If you've written a 350-page novel, that's about 48 cover-to-cover readers, give or take. So far so good, right?"

That's waay off base. $1000 is more like 250,000 pages at 0.004/page.


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## Ros_Jackson (Jan 11, 2014)

90daysnovel said:


> What's going on with the math in that Consumerist article?
> 
> "So mathematically, for an author to make $1000, Kindle Unlimited subscribers have to read about 16,700 pages of their work. If you've written a 350-page novel, that's about 48 cover-to-cover readers, give or take. So far so good, right?"
> 
> That's waay off base. $1000 is more like 250,000 pages at 0.004/page.


It's using a multiplier of about 0.006/page. They obviously haven't researched the change in rates.


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

Ros_Jackson said:


> It's using a multiplier of about 0.006/page. They obviously haven't researched the change in rates.


She's also slipped the decimal point. A 350 page novel has never ever paid $20 per read (as $1000 = 48 reads implies). It looks like she meant about 167,000 pages instead of 16,700 AND has the rate set at $0.006 per KENP which is way too high.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> I've said this about a thousand times. The only way it works for other subscription services is because there is a real person vetting the quality of the material. The. Only. Way. End. Of.


Yup.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

I doubt Amazon would add humans to check every single ebook uploaded. I'm not sure if Oyster did that, but they went out of business. Does Scribd have humans check? Scribd has struggled with profits and had to throttle back voracious romance readers that were reading too much. Seems like most of the "Netflix of ebooks" subscription based companies are not able to make it.

From this article, it seems the KU competitors are trying to strike deals with publishers versus letting anyone (self-publishers) access. I guess KU could go that route and we're all kicked out. I know some folks would love that. 

Maybe that's where it ends up. Each publisher has their own subscription service. KU only allows APub authors in. That would end these KU scams.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> I doubt Amazon would add humans to check every single ebook uploaded. I'm not sure if Oyster did that, but they went out of business. Does Scribd have humans check? Scribd has struggled with profits and had to throttle back voracious romance readers that were reading too much. Seems like most of the "Netflix of ebooks" subscription based companies are not able to make it.


And yet Apple has a reviewer vet every single book that goes into iTunes. So there's no reason at all that Amazon couldn't do it as well.

Oyster went out of business because the subscription model for ebooks doesn't work. These aren't gym memberships that people pick up because they made a New Year's resolution and then never use. The people who get ebook subscriptions tend to be voracious readers and consume far more than what their subscription fee covers. So, math. If you pay out more than you take in, you go out of business. Oyster lasted until their VC money dried up. Scribd did the same, and when money started getting tight they eliminated the books that people were actually borrowing. And Scribd largely relies on a user base that is there for their document storage, rather than their book lending.

The only reason KU is a going concern is because Amazon is running it as a loss leader to get people into the store where they'll buy other things. Go in to borrow a book, and buy a pair of Nikes and a new flatscreen TV while you're there. Walmart could do that. Google and Apple can't, because they've got nothing but digital content in their stores to sell. You can't pay out $50 a month on a $9.99 subscription hoping that the customer will pick up a couple of 99 cent songs as well. It doesn't work.

The scamming is going to break KU if Amazon doesn't get a handle on it. It's only worth keeping it alive to Amazon as long as the subscription fees plus the profit from the also-boughts is more than what they pay out every month. Two things can happen. Amazon holds the per-page payout relatively the same while the number of scammers grow, so that the pot becomes too large and the profit margin dries up. Or Amazon can reduce the per-page payout to keep the pot small enough so that KU remains profitable, but more and more authors bail from Select until the content is so awful that the subscription levels plummet. Either way, KU is toast. So if Amazon intends to keep KU alive, they need to get the lead out.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> And yet Apple has a reviewer vet every single book that goes into iTunes. So there's no reason at all that Amazon couldn't do it as well.
> 
> Oyster went out of business because the subscription model for ebooks doesn't work. These aren't gym memberships that people pick up because they made a New Year's resolution and then never use. The people who get ebook subscriptions tend to be voracious readers and consume far more than what their subscription fee covers. So, math. If you pay out more than you take in, you go out of business. Oyster lasted until their VC money dried up. Scribd did the same, and when money started getting tight they eliminated the books that people were actually borrowing. And Scribd largely relies on a user base that is there for their document storage, rather than their book lending.
> 
> ...


That surprises me. I went to an iBooks dinner here in San Francisco and the iBooks team at that time was less than ten people. Apple iBooks really has a human vet every single ebook submitted? But iBooks isn't like KU anyway which is a paid subscription service and where the scammers are running wild right now.

Anyway, I agree, it would be awesome if Amazon KU would have a well trained human vet every single ebook uploaded, but it's just not going to happen.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> That surprises me. I went to an iBooks dinner here in San Francisco and the iBooks team at that time was less than ten people. Apple iBooks really has a human vet every single ebook submitted? But iBooks isn't like KU anyway which is a paid subscription service and where the scammers are running wild right now.
> 
> Anyway, I agree, it would be awesome if Amazon KU would have a well trained human vet every single ebook uploaded, but it's just not going to happen.


Per my conversations with D2D support, Apple does manually review every book, and they have dozens of reviewers.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

My assumption is that Apple outsources book vetting. Probably to the Philippines or India.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Per my conversations with D2D support, Apple does manually review every book, and they have dozens of reviewers.


That's what I was told, which was the explanation for a delay of several weeks in getting a new book listed.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

Scribd and Oyster also received their SP books through Smashwords and D2D, which added yet another layer of scrutiny that KDP doesn't have.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Abderian said:


> ...better option than trawling through pages of scammy books with titles as long as my forearm....


 

Bonus points for making me grin.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> Book Description:
> 
> _There is certainly an urban area inside the clouds above a spot where you can find the human beings of older. Today, all people live inside the clouds and the ones tend to be few. A lot of the globe kept once the area turned uninhabitable. Worldwide is filled with strategy and also the sole responses will come._


Still curious about where the scammers swipe the material they turn into nonsense synonyms. I have a feeling the "author" of "The Argument's Viscount" scam book might have gotten it from the Bible, Revelation 21:4:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

"And John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away..."

It goes on to mention destruction of the sinful cities.

Scam book: "urban area" = city = Jerusalem. "Inside the clouds" = heaven. "Human beings of older" = the Tribes. "the ones tend to be few" = the righteous people who were accepted into heaven. "Globe... uninhabitable" = fire, brimstone, destruction, floods.

However, if the scammers are stealing from the Bible, it seems like it would be an awful lot of trouble for them to "translate" long passages into nonsense stuff. I'd think they would want to do something quick and easy, something they could completely automate.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> They hire out at 5 cents a page to use Google translate for this. Just translate something into ten languages, one after the other, and then back into English, and you get this.


Yep, that sounds about right. After you go through several languages and back to English, things would get pretty muddled.

I am still trying to figure out the howler: "Ingesting a dad with significant pals isn't all way too suitable." That ought to be fun!


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There's a synonymizer software you can buy.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

...

And then THIS article landed in my inbox (Amazon KDP and Kindle Unlimited: What It Means for Authors and Publishers). In it: a link to another article (Are Authors Really Losing Out in the Kindle Unlimited Pay-Per-Page Scam - Or Is It Amazon?) which says:

_"The per-page rate has not fallen through the floor like The Guardian assumed would happen as the scammers cheated their way to higher revenues.
So unless you are going to argue that the rate would be higher in the absence of the scammers, we have to consider whether Amazon is aware of this problem, and is keeping authors from being harmed."_

Thoughts?

I'm not an expert, but I made a little calculation...

Let's say Suzy Scribe's book had 315 pages before, and 300 after recalculation. That's a difference of 5% (the assumed average that books "lost" in page counts).

And let's say she got $0.0045 per page in December 2015. Times 315 pages, that equals $1.41 per complete book read.
Then once the recalculation was implemented in January 2016, she got $0.00479 in February (x 300 pages =$1.43), $0.00478 in March (=$1.43), and $0.00496 in April 2016 (=$1.4.

This silly little example shows how Suzy Scribe didn't lose any money due to the recalculation > because Amazon increased the pot.

In the mean time, the scammers have multiplied like fungi, and still that payment-per-page has grown, resulting in an increased income for Suzy's book, even though she "lost" 15 pages.

So...

Am I on the wrong track with this?
Has it all been said before and I missed it? (if that's the case, sorry, move along, nothing interesting to see here...)


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I think people's concerns about the scamming were more indirect than just the dilution of the pot. Some that come to mind: the difficulty of finding KU books, since the new release lists were swamped with scam books; readers leaving the program en masse because they perceive it to be a poor value; scammers displacing real authors as KU All Stars; eventual shutdown of the program, if keeping up with the scammers' impact becomes too costly; having one's product tainted by association; etc.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes, true. The flooding of the lists is indeed a major issue, since visibility is very hard to get anyway. But how many customers actually use those lists to shop...?

The All Stars are another issue...


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> I think people's concerns about the scamming were more indirect than just the dilution of the pot. Some that come to mind: the difficulty of finding KU books, since the new release lists were swamped with scam books; readers leaving the program en masse because they perceive it to be a poor value; scammers displacing real authors as KU All Stars; eventual shutdown of the program, if keeping up with the scammers' impact becomes too costly; having one's product tainted by association; etc.


We're also moving towards the time when KU tends to go through changes. Come July 1, there may be changes that may address everything. This is such a problem, more so than the erotica shorts taking over KU1, that Amazon can't do nothing. I'm sure the wheels are turning, planning something to roll out in July.

I'm sure there will be emails sent out about mid-June that there will be a KU3. What the change will be, we could start trying to guess now. Because once the emails come out, there will be whole threads dedicated to it. I think our guesses about a penny a page were generous when we theorized for KU2. What it turned out to be was so far below the .10 per page Amazon tried to sell everyone on in the email sent out.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> And let's say she got $0.0045 per page in December 2015. Times 315 pages, that equals $1.41 per complete book read.
> Then once the recalculation was implemented in January 2016, she got $0.00479 in February (x 300 pages =$1.43), $0.00478 in March (=$1.43), and $0.00496 in April 2016 (=$1.4.
> 
> This silly little example shows how Suzy Scribe didn't lose any money due to the recalculation > because Amazon increased the pot.
> ...


Your math is only correct if "all other things being equal" applies. However, if the pot increased, and 20 million scam pages are removed, then the per-page amount would be increased, therefore Suzy would make more money than if the scammers were excluded.

Monthly pot = $14.9 million
Pages read = 3,047,034,764
Payout = .00489 per page

Pages read = 3,027,034,764 (i.e. 20 million fewer pages)
Payout = .00492

No one knows how many scammer pages got paid, but some made the all star list, so I assume 20 million is conservative.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Melody Simmons said:


> Sorry for the ignorance here but I don't get it - what does it mean for "click farms" to make a "blog push"?? You mean they actually hack into Amazon or they pay thousands of people to download the books? How do they manage to get so many people to download them?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_farm


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## Nicksm28 (May 16, 2016)

What do these scammers have to gain?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Nicksm28 said:


> What do these scammers have to gain?


Money. Without all the pain of actually writing a book.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Yeah, I spent some time working in a black hat SEO shop. It's wild stuff. Did you know that there's subscription services where you can pay offshore workers to fill in CAPTCHAs for you? That's all they do all day, as far as I know. They sit and solve CAPTCHAs every few seconds, so that robots masquerading as humans can brute force passwords, post robot-generated drivel for ad revenue, upload books to Amazon, create KU accounts and borrow scamphlets...the list goes on.

Sometimes my boss took us out for lunch in his BMW. Unless he was attending a party at the Playboy Mansion, that is. Most people have no idea about the dark underbelly of the internet, or how much money changes hands based on this stuff.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Dolphin said:


> Yeah, I spent some time working in a black hat SEO shop. It's wild stuff. Did you know that there's subscription services where you can pay offshore workers to fill in CAPTCHAs for you? That's all they do all day, as far as I know. They sit and solve CAPTCHAs every few seconds, so that robots masquerading as humans can brute force passwords, post robot-generated drivel for ad revenue, upload books to Amazon, create KU accounts and borrow scamphlets...the list goes on.
> 
> Sometimes my boss took us out for lunch in his BMW. Unless he was attending a party at the Playboy Mansion, that is. Most people have no idea about the dark underbelly of the internet, or how much money changes hands based on this stuff.


If only these scammers used their knowledge for good *sigh*


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If only these scammers used their knowledge for good *sigh*


I try not to dwell on how much talent our world either wastes or sees put to nefarious uses. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'd ever stop weeping.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

It isn't zero-sum.

Scammers don't take from other authors. Amazon decides the pot after the month is over, so no author is being cheated.

Amazon is very aware of scammers, and it's a priority for them. Whenever I talk to Amazon folks, I urge them to inform the writing community about developments when things like this happen, but that just doesn't seem to be Amazon's MO. 

But we aren't getting smaller payouts because of scammers.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Jack Kilborn said:


> It isn't zero-sum.
> 
> Scammers don't take from other authors. Amazon decides the pot after the month is over, so no author is being cheated.


Didn't at least one scammer make the zero-sum All Star list, thus meaning at least one legit author was cheated financially?  /wiseacre

But, yeah, in the bigger picture very few authors have suffered much financial loss due to Amazon being a bit more flexible with the pot size. And it's nice to hear they're being diligent about the situation. Thanks for the update.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

J. Tanner said:


> Didn't at least one scammer make the zero-sum All Star list, thus meaning at least one legit author was cheated financially?


While I've spoken with Amazon, I can't speak for Amazon. Nor would I. Just putting this out there to clarify some misconceptions.

Amazon has been pretty clear that if they catch scammers--and they are catching scammers--they don't get paid, including bonuses.

Can they catch them all? No. But since you brought it up, here is my take:

If I barely missed a bonus because a scammer got it, no big deal because anyone who made that list is already making a lot of money, and it's bonus money, not actual earnings. If a scammer takes my spot on a bestseller list, how is that any different than someone paying $900 for a BookBub ad and taking my spot on the bestseller list? Or if JK Rowling releases a new pre-order that day? Some people will always get a higher rank, for whatever reason.

This business is luck, and it's a long game, and there is nothing good that can come from worrying what other authors are doing. This is NOT zero sum. And visibility and discoverability don't diminish for you in the long run because someone else is temporarily gaming the system.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I think we can argue semantics all day, but to say it's not a zero sum game simply isn't correct. As mentioned, when a scammer takes the spot of a legitimate author on an All-Star list, that author loses. There are finite spots on that list, all of them (ideally) earned through legitimate sales. Arguing that they already make a ton of money is irrelevant.

By the same token, Top 20 lists, whether they be New Release, Pop Lists, whatever, when those spots get filled with scammers' books, legitimate authors lose out on exposure.

Is there a difference between a scammer taking a Top 20 spot versus an author buying it with a BookBub ad? Are we really having this discussion? An author may buy a BB ad, but rank is still earned through legitimate purchases of that book. Scammers using click farms, well, there's nothing legitimate about that.


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## Brad Vance (Mar 19, 2016)

Jack Kilborn said:


> And visibility and discoverability don't diminish for you in the long run because someone else is temporarily gaming the system.


"Visibility" is what Huffington Post pays you for articles. And how visible are you, really, when your new release is buried in a sea of spam?

Even I've figured out how to spot certain spammers. Either A, one of them is always using this content, or B, they're all copying each other, but you know it's a spambook when you see this in the front:



> The information provided herein is stated to be truthful and consistent, in that any liability, in terms of inattention or otherwise, by any usage or abuse of any policies, processes, or directions contained within is the solitary and utter responsibility of the recipient reader. Under no circumstances will any legal responsibility or blame be held against the publisher for any reparation, damages, or monetary loss due to the information herein, either directly or indirectly.


I saw this exact copy in the first huge romance spambooks (most of which said paranormal or MM romances were about time management and the South Beach Diet). And I went looking for books on the cryptocurrency Ethereum, with an eye to maybe writing one. And guess what! There it was, that exact same poorly worded wordage again... I immediately knew it was a spambook, as was its companion book. And of course they're both in KU.
https://www.amazon.com/FinTech-Beginners-Guide-Financial-Technology-ebook/dp/B01FX0UK7O/ref=sr_1_9?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1464368848&sr=1-9&keywords=ethereum
https://www.amazon.com/Blockchain-Simple-Guide-Everything-Need-ebook/dp/B01F7YJSEW/ref=sr_1_10?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1464368848&sr=1-10&keywords=ethereum

Oh, and take a look at the blatantly fake reviews...

My Point Is: If I a simple customer can immediately flag a spambook based on copypasted blather, why doesn't Amazon have the brains to use some kind of plagiarism software to find more spambooks based on this kind of thing? Once you've identified a pattern (which given Amazon's massive computing power and programming genius they should be able to do) it should be easy enough.

So when I put out that Ethereum book? Well, there they are, highly rated KU books pushing me down the list...

Also, "a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s)." When KU is a fixed pot, their gain *is" my loss.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I think we can argue semantics all day, but to say it's not a zero sum game simply isn't correct. As mentioned, when a scammer takes the spot of a legitimate author on an All-Star list, that author loses. There are finite spots on that list, all of them (ideally) earned through legitimate sales. Arguing that they already make a ton of money is irrelevant.
> 
> By the same token, Top 20 lists, whether they be New Release, Pop Lists, whatever, when those spots get filled with scammers' books, legitimate authors lose out on exposure.
> 
> Is there a difference between a scammer taking a Top 20 spot versus an author buying it with a BookBub ad? Are we really having this discussion? An author may buy a BB ad, but rank is still earned through legitimate purchases of that book. Scammers using click farms, well, there's nothing legitimate about that.


Thank you, Saul, for saving me from a bunch of typing. ^^^ This. Exactly.

Sorry, Joe, I think you're wrong on this one.

--------

In addition to the efforts we've seen on Amazon's part as noted in this thread www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,235325, I recently saw that Amazon has taken action against the entire catalog of an author -- not a click-farm marketer -- who was playing fast and loose with the bonus book stuffing. She amended her files when Amazon started cracking down on TOCs and Click To End links, but she continued to offer unrelated bonus books in her files. There were a couple of other shady things that were subtle but were clearly intended to try to trick Amazon into not tagging her books as scammy. It was frustrating to see her getting away with such clear violations for so long after multiple reports by multiple people. While the result was long in coming, the resolution was satisfying both in that her ebooks were all removed and in seeing that Amazon is paying attention and taking action.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

There's a huge difference in buying an ad and rising in the ranks and using click farms to raise bogus content. Not the same at all. These scammers are hurting legitimate authors, cheating us out of bonuses, rankings and sales/page reads. They're turning a lot of readers off KU, even off searching for books on Amazon, because of the title stuffing, crap content, multiples files rearranged and whatever else they've come up with.

I'm willing to compete with any other author who is trying to provide good content. That's how things work. Maybe they're lucky enough to get an ad at just the right moment in their career, and I'm not. It happens. But I'm not willing to say nothing while people scam readers and block my efforts to turn out a good story and get readers. I'm not willing to shrug and say, "Oh, well, it's not hurting me, so everybody should just shut up about it, they just don't understand how this game works.".


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> I recently saw that Amazon has taken action against the entire catalog of an author -- not a click-farm marketer -- who was playing fast and loose with the bonus book stuffing.


It's wonderful that Amazon is finally taking action against these people (one of my targets, reported multiple times, was recently taken down so I know it's happening), but there are still plenty of them out there. And it's not just the bonus book stuffing that bothers me, but the repeated unpublishing and then republishing of the same title in order to re-enroll in KDP Select and get another 5 free days, which they then use to leverage themselves into the poplists.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

Amazon pulled the bogus "Kill a Mockingbird" book. Yah!



mmandolin said:


> Gotta love Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2XZOSA41BVOUO/


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Clicked on that link, and then on the book title. I got a really cute error page with an invitation to meet the dogs of Amazon, which I clicked on to go to this adorable page! Good on Amazon. 

https://www.amazon.com/p/feature/d8j6je99gnx65bk?ref_=doa_red


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I got a really cute error page with an invitation to meet the dogs of Amazon, which I clicked on to go to this adorable page!


Thank you for bringing this VERY IMPORTANT THING to my attention. Adorable!


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

Jack Kilborn said:


> It isn't zero-sum.
> 
> *Scammers don't take from other authors. Amazon decides the pot after the month is over, so no author is being cheated.
> *
> ...


Forget it, dude. I've seen a lot of authors trying to hammer this point home over and over on this board (Amazon decides what the payment is AFTER the month is over, so they can make it however much they dang well pleases) whenever this topic comes up, but most people here either just don't understand it, are incapable of grasping the logic, or don't care to try. It's easier to scream "scammers are stealing our money!" as the reason they are failing.

And of course, you have the Amazon haters. Those guys are a lost cause. (Though for people who vilify Amazon and call them everything including Hitler and the Devil, they sure don't see the hypocrisy of STILL selling their books on Amazon. But I digress.)


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> I think we can argue semantics all day, but to say it's not a zero sum game simply isn't correct.* As mentioned, when a scammer takes the spot of a legitimate author on an All-Star list, that author loses. There are finite spots on that list, all of them (ideally) earned through legitimate sales. Arguing that they already make a ton of money is irrelevant.*
> 
> By the same token, Top 20 lists, whether they be New Release, Pop Lists, whatever, when those spots get filled with scammers' books, legitimate authors lose out on exposure.
> 
> Is there a difference between a scammer taking a Top 20 spot versus an author buying it with a BookBub ad? Are we really having this discussion? An author may buy a BB ad, but rank is still earned through legitimate purchases of that book. Scammers using click farms, well, there's nothing legitimate about that.


You sound like someone who has never qualified for a bonus. Jack Kilborn is correct. If you're qualifying for a bonus, you're already making HUGE money. $40-$50k-higher kind of money. I can assure you, when you're making that kind of money, a measly $1K/$2K bonus is nothing to lose sleep over. Those scammers sure as heck aren't hitting the Top 10/20, I can practically guarantee you that.


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

Personally, I'm glad they're nuking spam left and right.



new_writer said:


> You sound like someone who has never qualified for a bonus. Jack Kilborn is correct. If you're qualifying for a bonus, you're already making HUGE money. $40-$50k-higher kind of money. I can assure you, when you're making that kind of money, a measly $1K/$2K bonus is nothing to lose sleep over. Those scammers sure as heck aren't hitting the Top 10/20, I can practically guarantee you that.


You've got a point. Authors ranked 1-10 in the entirety of the American store make $25K, which is probably a day's take of KENPC reads money for them.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

new_writer said:


> You sound like someone who has never qualified for a bonus. Jack Kilborn is correct. If you're qualifying for a bonus, you're already making HUGE money. $40-$50k-higher kind of money. I can assure you, when you're making that kind of money, a measly $1K/$2K bonus is nothing to lose sleep over. Those scammers sure as heck aren't hitting the Top 10/20, I can practically guarantee you that.


Scammers have routinely been spotted in the All Stars list. They've been adding to the numbers of page reads required to hit the payout tiers. We've been chasing those tiers since last August for one of our authors. We've been coming up just short each month as the numbers required keep escalating.

Now, if it takes 3 million page reads to hit the bottom tier, that's $14,500 for a US payout. If, like us, 75% of the author's income is from KU, then that's maybe $20,000 total income for the month. $1000 at that income level -- especially if it doesn't happen every month -- isn't something *some* people would sneeze at.

And if we look back 6 months, it was taking 2M reads, or about $10K for US reads, with a total income around $15-16K.

I can also assure you I do understand the numbers and the nuances. I've yet to be accused of being a Chicken Little.

What mainly non-scamming authors are losing out on is visibility, which has a direct impact on sales. That's demonstrable now. It'll be much easier over the next couple of months to get a better idea what impact scammers have had (or not had) on the payouts and page reads numbers to hit the All Stars lists.

That's not even taking illustrated children's books' payouts into consideration. I've seen scammers pushing for those All Star lists, presumably because the profit bar is lower there.

Top 10 folk might not care. I can pretty much assure you, the #101 author cares -- a lot.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Have we really gotten to the point where wanting something done about scammers aside from hilarious amounts of hamfisted and ineffectual action qualifies you as a hater?


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## A.R. Williams (Jan 9, 2011)

Jack Kilborn said:


> If I barely missed a bonus because a scammer got it, no big deal because anyone who made that list is already making a lot of money, and it's bonus money, not actual earnings.


That's an "_interesting_" philosophy, Joe. Which gives me an idea that will solve all this angst over how the system works in regards to author payments.

Amazon makes *BILLIONS* each and every year. That means they can afford to lose a little bit of money by getting rid of the pot and making each read/borrow pay the author in full.

And that's investment money, Joe. Real honest to goodness investment money. If you want to destroy the competition you gotta spend the dough. In the long run it will help their earnings--and that's real money!


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

new_writer said:


> You sound like someone who has never qualified for a bonus. Jack Kilborn is correct. If you're qualifying for a bonus, you're already making HUGE money. $40-$50k-higher kind of money. I can assure you, when you're making that kind of money, a measly $1K/$2K bonus is nothing to lose sleep over. Those scammers sure as heck aren't hitting the Top 10/20, I can practically guarantee you that.


_Ad hominem_ argument (_argumentum ad crumenam_). *#disregard*
_Argumentum ab auctoritate_ (or appeal to flattery, perhaps) *#disregard*
Overall, the entire statement is one huge red herring. One's financial sensitivity to loss has no bearing on whether the game is zero-sum or not.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

new_writer said:


> Forget it, dude. I've seen a lot of authors trying to hammer this point home over and over on this board (Amazon decides what the payment is AFTER the month is over, so they can make it however much they dang well pleases) whenever this topic comes up, but most people here either just don't understand it, are incapable of grasping the logic, or don't care to try. It's easier to scream "scammers are stealing our money!" as the reason they are failing.
> 
> And of course, you have the Amazon haters. Those guys are a lost cause. (Though for people who vilify Amazon and call them everything including Hitler and the Devil, they sure don't see the hypocrisy of STILL selling their books on Amazon. But I digress.)


I can assure you that most authors on this forum understand perfectly how the KU program works. Perhaps we aren't all living high on the upper tier with you and Joe, but we aren't stupid and don't need a lecture.



Vaalingrade said:


> Have we really gotten to the point where wanting something done about scammers aside from hilarious amounts of hamfisted and ineffectual action qualifies you as a hater?


Apparently so. Sad isn't it? I guess we need to wait until something singes the butts of those who make enough money to not miss a few thousand every month, and then we can listen to them bemoan their losses to us peons. (We've seen a couple of examples already, if some remember.)


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

new_writer said:


> You sound like someone who has never qualified for a bonus. Jack Kilborn is correct. If you're qualifying for a bonus, you're already making HUGE money. $40-$50k-higher kind of money. I can assure you, when you're making that kind of money, a measly $1K/$2K bonus is nothing to lose sleep over. Those scammers sure as heck aren't hitting the Top 10/20, I can practically guarantee you that.


I've worked at a variety of jobs. And it didn't matter if I worked at a grocery store or a multi-billion dollar bank. Stealing is stealing. I don't care if you stole $5 or 5k... the company would still prosecute you.

At one bank I worked we had an employee bonus program. Employees got bonuses for up selling customers to other financial programs. One guy got caught gaming the system to get extra bonuses. He was fired. For stealing. I don't see the difference.


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