# Should I get a dog? I did.



## Sandpiper

I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me.

I came a little close yesterday. At least it made me a little more sure about it. Went to local pet shop to get bird seed. They always have a few mixed breed puppies. Couple weeks ago I dreamed that I got a dachshund. So yesterday in the pet shop they had mixed min dachsie / min pin. I sure thought about it, but no.

There is a certain breed I want. Border Terrier. I had one 40 years ago. No dog since. Beagles and Borders -- my favs. (Borders book store also favorite. )

This is my long gone Border, Ribbon.










I live in a condo. (Dogs under 20 lbs. permitted. Full grown Borders are app. 15 lbs.) No longer work. Home a lot. NO family.

I don't remember how we housebroke our Beagle and Border. Today it's generally done with a crate / crate training? Borders are smart little things. I don't think it would be too much of a problem (hopefully). It's said of Borders -- they're a big dog in a little dog's body.


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## Daniel Arenson

Go for it!


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## jesscscott

Sure 

I'd like to get a cat next time. I've kept turtles in the past (which I released after a while -- figured they'd be happier outdoors compared to a small tank, lol).


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## pidgeon92

Of course you should get a dog! But please, consider adopting a shelter dog.


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## NapCat (retired)

Obviously, 'da NapCat votes.......NO ! (giggle)


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## NogDog

pidgeon92 said:


> Of course you should get a dog! But please, consider adopting a shelter dog.


Ditto...or at the very least make sure you are not supporting a "puppy mill" or irresponsible breeder. If you do want to go with a specific breed such as the Border Terrier, make sure you do the homework to find out what its typical needs are in terms of exercise and determine if you are able to provide it; and of course learning what the breed's typical temperament is can help you decide if it's a good fit for you, remembering that within a given breed personalities will vary just like with people.


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## Sandpiper

I don't believe it!  Love the internet.  I remembered the name of the breeder who I got Ribbon from 40 years ago.  I binged.  Found contact info.  Sent an e-mail last night.  I just got off the phone with her!  She's still in the Chicago area.  No longer breeding as she's up a little in years, but she knows a number of Border people in the area.  I think this is gonna happen.


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## A. Rosaria

I'm happy for you that your going for it. Having a dog is a lot of work in the beginning, but you said you have the time and are willing to, so that is great.


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## Guest

Terriers need a lot of exercise.  If you live in a Condo, you may want to consider a more quiet, laid back breed.

I don't believe in buying dogs from pet stores.  They prop up puppy mills.

A reliable breeder would actually be really terrific to speak with, and give you great advice.  They are just as likely to say "this dog is not for you" as "please buy the dog."

Shelters are CRAMMED with dogs, including pure breeds, due to the economy.  If you have no inclination at all to save one of those dogs... ask yourself if owning a specific breed is important enough to you to let them die without homes.  

I own pugs, but they were both rescues.  In fact, this is a large farm and the only two animals here who were NOT rescues were wedding gifts (our pair of Andalusians).  

There's nothing wrong with buying from a breeder... just please consider how important it is and remember a dog is not a toy.  An energetic dog can't be blamed for eating couches if it is not allowed to burn off that steam.  And it sucks to walk a hyper dog in the rain. 

Good luck!


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## john_a_karr

pidgeon92 said:


> Of course you should get a dog! But please, consider adopting a shelter dog.


Second that. So many unwanted animals in shelters these days, from young to old. We have two dogs and a cat from shelters and they seem very happy to have found a home.


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## NogDog

john_a_karr said:


> Second that. So many unwanted animals in shelters these days, from young to old. We have two dogs and a cat from shelters and they seem very happy to have found a home.


Yep. Noggin was adopted from a shelter. He's a mutt, no special breed, not especially cute or good-looking, mild-mannered, and one of the best and luckiest choices I ever made in my life.  And I must give kudos to the people running the shelter that they worked to match me up with the right dog -- one of my first choices was rejected by them as not a good fit for me and my situation.


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## Vegas_Asian

You live by yourself, a dog is a great idea. The police man that I talk to at the dog park told my best friend and I if we had to choose between a security system or a dog for security for our own place (she lives on her own and I have a key to use her place to study at)....He said to get a dog.

I say get a dog. If it wasn't for my dog, I wouldn't spent so much time outside. I take her on drives (head out the window and all), trips to the dog park, occassionaly hike, we take my bike to starbucks & sit outside (she used to fit my basket as a puppy, she's 80lbs), and we go thru drive thrus together. (some places have dog treats for dogs). Every year I have the entire house to myself as family goes to hawaii while i am still in school. My dog growls at the door each times someone gets to close to the front of the house. Had some odd people knock on my dog in the middle of the day and she barked when they knocked. I never answer the door for people I don't know, but they don't stay long when they hear my dog.


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## A. S. Warwick

The answer is of course yes.

A quote, which though not mine, that I regularly repeat is that dogs are unconditional love on four legs.


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## corkyb

If a border turns out to need too much exercise for a condo, try a yorkie.  They are very much little people in dog skin or big dogs in little dogs bodies.  They are so small that they can get enough exercise in your house, yet could hike 13 miles when in shape.  They are the BEST dog breed in my opinion.  I would only try another breed if I was rescuing, and please, please do not buy from a pet store.  They are from puppy mills and are fraught with problems.


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## Sandpiper

There's something about a Border . . . .  They're a big dog in a little dog's body.  They're spunky little things.  (I don't like sissy prissy dogs.)  They are smart.  But at the same time, they like sitting on a lap.  They kinda go both ways -- active and quiet / calm.  In looks, they sort of resemble a Jack Russell (another English breed), but they are far from the live wires that JRs are.  I had Ribbon years ago.  I know firsthand too.  

Nancy, the former breeder, agreed a Border would be good for me here.  I do need a dog to get me going.  I am far too content just sitting with my Kindle (and DTBs) and TV with DVDs.  

Yes, a Border Terrier.


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## MichelleR

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?animal_type=Dog&pet_breed=border+terrier&location=chicago%2C+il&distance=0


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## N. Gemini Sasson

Sandpiper said:


> I don't believe it! Love the internet. I remembered the name of the breeder who I got Ribbon from 40 years ago. I binged. Found contact info. Sent an e-mail last night. I just got off the phone with her! She's still in the Chicago area. No longer breeding as she's up a little in years, but she knows a number of Border people in the area. I think this is gonna happen.


That sounds sooooo exciting, Sandpiper! I understand how certain breeds have special traits and are exactly right for some people. Years ago my sister-in-laws parents were looking for a dog. They wanted a small dog that could handle the activity of grandchildren in good humor and be content settled down when it was just them alone at home. I suggested a Border Terrier, because I'd been around a lot of them in agility and thought they were cool little dogs. Saw my SIL's parents a few years later - and the dog - and he was such a gentleman! Happy, fun, well-mannered. They were very happy with him.

Please report back if you get one and let us know how things are going.

Best,
Gemi


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## Carol (was Dara)

Sandpiper said:


> I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me.


I'm the last person on earth you should ask this question because my answer is always an emphatic "yes!" regardless of the circumstances. Everyone should own a dog. Everyone should own _five_ dogs (even though I don't practice what I preach because I only keep one). 

That little guy in your picture is totally adorable. I just want to squeeze him.

ETA: just read your update. Congrats! It looks like an adorable breed and I'm sure you won't regret it.


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## MichelleR

I'm sure Sandpiper will be a good owner, but not everyone should have a dog or five dogs, and circumstances matter.


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## Tam

I grew up with one small housedog (rat terrier type who was a sweetheart) and later an outside beagle. When our kids were young teens I started talking about getting a dog. I was amazed when a couple of my friends told me they didn't think we would be a good family for a dog! I couldn't understand why - I have a very flexible job close to home and I could come home every day at lunchtime to take a dog out. Our kids were very responsible and we had done quite well caring for our pet cats over the years. I finally came to the conclusion that the people I was taking to were "dog snobs" - no one was quite as special and uniquely equipped to have a dog as they were!

Our first dog was a retired racing greyhound. We had been exploring greyhound adoption groups on the internet when by a serendipidous and amazing coincidence, we found a stray greyhound! I was able to find the owner after several days and it turned out that the dog was no longer wanted (which might be why they weren't too concerned when they let her run loose out of their yard and she disappeared...) Tori was 7 years old and we had her for 3 years before she passed away - she was the most wonderful sweet soul and was a complete blessing to our family.

A year after getting Tori, we adopted a small dog named Arthur from a free-to-good-home ad in the newspaper. He's a 10 pound Chinese Crested Powder Puff - which means he's the same breed as the nearly hairless dogs that always win the Ugly Dog contests! Except he is totally furred and looks a bit like a poodle. Arthur was 4 when we got him and now he is almost 12 and still full of love and sweetness. He's a wonderful dog!

My brother recently lost their 16 year old Border Terrier Daisy. I know what you mean about them being a big dog in a small dog's body. Daisy was a remarkable dog and is sorely missed. Here are two pics of her going kayaking with her family a few years ago (when she was well past middle age!) Good luck in your search - I hope you are able to find a dog from a shelter or breed rescue group - but however you get your dog I'm sure you will be happy with it!


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## coffeetx

I have two cats but last month a boxer came into our life.  She was a stray and we never found her owners.  I have had dogs in the past but none like this one.  I can honestly say the boxer breed is pretty amazing.  She has health issues which I'm told is typical of boxers but her personality more than makes up for the vet bill.  I feel like I have been missing out my whole life not knowing how awesome boxers are!  She just came into my life out of no where but I can't imagine life without her.  I hope all works out for you!


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## Sandpiper

Tam said:


> My brother recently lost their 16 year old Border Terrier Daisy. I know what you mean about them being a big dog in a small dog's body. Daisy was a remarkable dog and is sorely missed. Here are two pics of her going kayaking with her family a few years ago (when she was well past middle age!) Good luck in your search - I hope you are able to find a dog from a shelter or breed rescue group - but however you get your dog I'm sure you will be happy with it!


Daisy looks so sweet. I'm sure she is missed BIG TIME.

Heard from Nancy, former breeder, again. She's going to have a couple breeders call me and check into possible older dog. (Though maybe not a shelter dog, a dog not so in demand as a puppy.) I'm open to most any age -- just gotta be a Border.

I could start crate shopping. They weren't used 40 - 55 years ago when we had the Beagle and later the Border. What size for a 15 lb. dog? Some have movable interior walls? Anything else in particular I should look for in a crate?


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## James043

If there is any way you could drive up and get the dog, or fly up yourself and drive back with it possibly the dog would like that better.  I've always wondered about flying my dogs and if they would like it.  Sometimes we go to the grocery store and you can hear them from outside the house howling and yodeling. 

I love dogs and would always recommend having one to anybody who understands the commitment and responsibility.  

Best to you and your new best friend. 

James


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## Sandpiper

MichelleR said:


> http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?animal_type=Dog&pet_breed=border+terrier&location=chicago%2C+il&distance=0


One of those dogs in particular could interest me -- Scrappy. But really, not much is said about him. And I don't much care for their procedure for adopting. Fill out on-line form. Someone will call if they like what's on the form. If so, be there on the 16th -- first come gets the dog. Geeeez. I'm a distance, but not too far. Line waiting outside the shelter at 8:00 a.m.? I'm first. No, I'm first. Not first. You lose. Seems a little not so to me. Animals there may be OK. Sometimes shelters get shut down. (Thinking of one in this area years ago.)


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## Val2

Do it! You need a furry friend in your life! And then post pics!


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## MichelleR

Sandpiper said:


> One of those dogs in particular could interest me -- Scrappy. But really, not much is said about him. And I don't much care for their procedure for adopting. Fill out on-line form. Someone will call if they like what's on the form. If so, be there on the 16th -- first come gets the dog. Geeeez. I'm a distance, but not too far. Line waiting outside the shelter at 8:00 a.m.? I'm first. No, I'm first. Not first. You lose. Seems a little not so to me. Animals there may be OK. Sometimes shelters get shut down. (Thinking of one in this area years ago.)


That does seem chaotic. We did the first come/first serve thing when a dog was featured on the news, but only because in that case it would be crazy. I'd handle it a little different from online. Of course, little dogs are much more in demand.

When I fostered, I'd screen the people and make my own decisions, arrange for a visit, and the dog would only return to the shelter as a formality unless he had not been neutered.

Still, it's not Scrappy's fault.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Sandpiper said:


> I could start crate shopping. They weren't used 40 - 55 years ago when we had the Beagle and later the Border. What size for a 15 lb. dog? Some have movable interior walls? Anything else in particular I should look for in a crate?


I am far from an expert on crates, but as far as I know: The moveable interior walls are for puppies. You buy one the size they should be fully grown and move the walls as they grow. This keeps you from having to buy 2 crates. The crate needs to be big enough for the dog to turn around in, but you don't want it to be too big b/c you want it to be her "den". Too big and they'll find a spot to make their bathroom in. W/ our current dog (Gizmo the Wonder Pug) we've thrown a blanket over her crate to make it warmer and more cave like. She loves her crate. When looking for a crate, since you're looking for an older dog, go w/ the size the dog should be (the crates should be rated by weight, ie, up to 15 lbs, 15-30lbs etc)


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## ◄ Jess ►

I realllly want to get a dog as well. I think it'll have to wait until I finish college, move out of the dorms, and get a job, though! Keep us updated on what you decide!!


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## louiseb

I definitely support getting a dog but in the spirit of full disclosure I should tell you I have 6, and have had as many as 8, all rescues.   Someone else posted a Petfinder link for you, there is any kind of dog you could want out there in a shelter or rescue needing a home, easy to find on Petfinder. Most of mine came from a shelter because I like to get the "unadoptable" dogs, but one of mine I got from a rescue. I was looking for very particular personality traits to go with one of my dogs. I went through the 7 page application, the phone interview, and the home interview before I was accepted. I understand, the rescues put a lot of time and often money into the dogs getting them healthy and through their trauma, they do not want all their work to be undone by the wrong adopter, and there are some real horror stories out there. The good thing about getting a dog from a rescue versus the shelter is you know exactly what you are getting, any physical/emotional problems, training issues. When you get a dog from a shelter you often do not know what the dog will really be like until they've been away from the shelter a few weeks. I also tried fostering a dog, when the rescue found her a home after 6 weeks I could not give her up, so I'm a foster failure.


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## Sandpiper

louiseb said:


> I understand, the rescues put a lot of time and often money into the dogs getting them healthy and through their trauma, they do not want all their work to be undone by the wrong adopter, and there are some real horror stories out there. The good thing about getting a dog from a rescue versus the shelter is you know exactly what you are getting, any physical/emotional problems, training issues. When you get a dog from a shelter you often do not know what the dog will really be like until they've been away from the shelter a few weeks. I also tried fostering a dog, when the rescue found her a home after 6 weeks I could not give her up, so I'm a foster failure.


I just didn't care for the "be first or you lose" procedure of the one shelter.

I now have a crate. Nancy, my former breeder, sent me a link to a new posting on Craig's List this morning. I had been thinking wire, but Nancy recommended Remington crates:


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## stever

Sandpiper said:


> I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me...


No.


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## crebel

Of course you should!  You have thought it through, are not a first-time owner, are familiar with the breed you want, have the time, energy and personal space to devote to another being, sound like you want the companionship and have the love to share.

I hope you find the perfect fur-baby for you and have many happy years together.


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## Sandpiper

stever said:


> No.


?


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## caseyf6

I love the idea of you getting a dog; I wouldn't want to live alone without at least a pet.  The shelter place you described didn't sound like an organization I would like, either, honestly.  BUT maybe you can look up Border rescue societies?  Keep looking for a rescue-- you have not been loved forever, IMO, the way you will be by a rescue.


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## MamaProfCrash

I would look for a Border Terrier rescue in your area. I understand wanting a specific breed but there are many rescue organizations that work with specific breeds. The nice thing about rescued dogs/ shelter dogs is that you are giving a needy dog a loving home, and save money. If you are not going to show the dog then a rescue dog is a nice way to help a dog in need of a home, find a great companion. Maybe you could ask Nancy if she knows of any Border Terrier rescues in your area.


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## Amyshojai

This is so exciting! Hurray YOU! Love the Border Terriers, they're so "old man" wise yet with that twinkle in their eyes. Good choice on the crate--and you'll be getting an adult so shouldn't have the problem with house training. Ping me with any doggy questions, and happy to help if I can.


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## MamaProfCrash

One last thing and then I will shut up.

Not all rescues are the same. Caya was adopted from a rescue that allowed you to apply at the store, go through an interview, and take the dog home that day. Cooper was adopted from a rescue that allowed you to apply at the store, they reviewed the application and interviewed you, they conducted a home check, you had to go through a 40 minute long orientation/training session, then you could bring the dog home.

Cooper was much more difficult but the process struck me as fair. The home check was essentially looking for where you were going to let the dog sleep, is the environment safe, do you have a ton of other pets, and a basic sanity check. It also prevents people from visiting a pet store on the day of an adoption event and bringing home a dog on impulse. 

It might be a bit more challenging, you have to find a rescue organization that you like and go through their process, but you are helping to give a dog a home who has had it a bit harder then other dogs.


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## Sandpiper

I'm letting Nancy "look around" for me as she is still active in the Border Terrier community in this area though she no longer breeds them.  Don't know what age I might get.  Ribbon was a few months old, not a "baby" when I got her.  That was good.  I'm OK with as much as a couple years.  Wait and see who calls / what happens.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

I will say no in favor of real partner, company and love..LOL


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## Amyshojai

Uhm...well, my dog (and cat) offer me real love, real companionship, and actually are real partners in my business. 

I will say the husband grooms and walks himself, LOL!


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Uhm...well, my dog (and cat) offer me real love, real companionship, and actually are real partners in my business.
> 
> I will say the husband grooms and walks himself, LOL!


LOL


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## Liz57

Sandpiper you sound like a perfect dog owner, and the dog that comes into your life is a lucky one indeed. I have two dogs, an Australian workig dog (Kelpie) and a little West Highland Terrier. They are just wonderful and I adore them. Dogs give you so much. But yes, they can be alot of work in the beginning. 

In regards to the crate, if you end up with an older dog you may not need the crate. I used a crate and crate training with my Westie as soon as I got her - she was 16 weeks old. But if an older dog is trained, house trained and not used to a crate they might find it awful. Just a thought. I'd only use a crate with a puppy.

Anyway, I'm so excited for you regardless of where you get your dog from. I look forward to reading more about him/her and seeing some photos hopefully! Its also really great that you found that breeder from all those years ago, and how nice of her to help you find a dog )


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## Sandpiper

Liz57 said:


> Anyway, I'm so excited for you regardless of where you get your dog from. I look forward to reading more about him/her and seeing some photos hopefully! Its also really great that you found that breeder from all those years ago, and how nice of her to help you find a dog )


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## Vegas_Asian

louiseb said:


> I definitely support getting a dog but in the spirit of full disclosure I should tell you I have 6, and have had as many as 8, all rescues.  Someone else posted a Petfinder link for you, there is any kind of dog you could want out there in a shelter or rescue needing a home, easy to find on Petfinder. Most of mine came from a shelter because I like to get the "unadoptable" dogs, but one of mine I got from a rescue. I was looking for very particular personality traits to go with one of my dogs. I went through the 7 page application, the phone interview, and the home interview before I was accepted. I understand, the rescues put a lot of time and often money into the dogs getting them healthy and through their trauma, they do not want all their work to be undone by the wrong adopter, and there are some real horror stories out there. The good thing about getting a dog from a rescue versus the shelter is you know exactly what you are getting, any physical/emotional problems, training issues. When you get a dog from a shelter you often do not know what the dog will really be like until they've been away from the shelter a few weeks. I also tried fostering a dog, when the rescue found her a home after 6 weeks I could not give her up, so I'm a foster failure.


this is my family's biggest fear when we were talking about fostering. We live across the street from a dog park and know a lot of people that foster. I have seen foster dogs get adopted, the new owners will meet the fosters at the dog park to mini reunions. If you live near a dog park, people there are usually more than willing to advice on shelters and so forth. Often they know of a people looking for homes for dogs too


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## Sandpiper

I am getting a Border Terrier puppy from a breeder in the area in app. mid August.


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## MichelleR

Congratulations! You know I was rooting for rescue, but I know you're going to provide a great home.


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## Casse

Congrats!!!!!! There is nothing wrong at all with purchasing a puppy from a reputable breeder


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## Amyshojai

Congratulations! Oooooooh, puppy breath!    That gives you time to plan and anticipate and share pictures and and and...Enjoy!


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## MichelleR

Amyshojai said:


> Oooooooh, puppy breath!


I know, like cocoa! Jealous.


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## Tam

I haven't been able to be online much for the last few days ans was so glad to check back here and seeyour good news. Looking forward to seeing then puppy pics!


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## spotsmom

Please do not give in before August and go to a pet shop for a puppy.  If you need horror stories from puppy mills, let me know and I'll tell you more than you want to know.  Everyone who suggested Border Terrier Rescue (or petfinder) is right.  Give an older dog a second chance.

I know all about puppy breath, however, and just hope you can hang on until August!!  Puppy paws smell like popcorn.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Congratulations! Oooooooh, puppy breath!  That gives you time to plan and anticipate and share pictures and and and...Enjoy!


And learn how to use the "fancy" (though not DSLR) digital camera I got last year. 'Bout time.


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## Sandpiper

spotsmom said:


> Please do not give in before August and go to a pet shop for a puppy. If you need horror stories from puppy mills, let me know and I'll tell you more than you want to know. Everyone who suggested Border Terrier Rescue (or petfinder) is right. Give an older dog a second chance.


I won't go to a pet shop (or shelter or rescue -- sorry). I told the breeder I would take one of hers. (The parents haven't even met quite yet.) Want to keep my word unless there's some drastic reason not to. Thought she might want a deposit, but no.

So until August I have more time to read. I have a number of good books (plus one more  ) on my Ks.


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## Sandpiper

HELP with a name !!

As my breeds are Beagles and Borders, I'm looking for one syllable name that starts with a B for a male.  I want a male.  So far I do kind of like Becque.  Or maybe Bret.  Becque better of the two.

Anyone -- pros and cons for getting male or female (dog)?

I heard a name for a female on TV last night that I like a lot -- Belle.  If I do end up with female, that IS the name.


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## MichelleR

spotsmom said:


> Puppy paws smell like popcorn.


Dear spotsmom,

You are clearly mistaken in that they smell like Fritos. 

Sincerely,
Mom to Ferguson the Sheltie, Rhiannon the Greyhound Who Had 6 Teeth Pulled the Other Day, Violet AKA Violence the Dachshund, and Dixie The Demon Cat.


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## Jane917

Sandpiper said:


> I am getting a Border Terrier puppy from a breeder in the area in app. mid August.


Congratulations!


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## N. Gemini Sasson

MichelleR said:


> You are clearly mistaken in that they smell like Fritos.


Puppy breath smells like bologna.


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## angelmum3

Sandpiper said:


> I just didn't care for the "be first or you lose" procedure of the one shelter.
> 
> I now have a crate. Nancy, my former breeder, sent me a link to a new posting on Craig's List this morning. I had been thinking wire, but Nancy recommended Remington crates:


Perfect Crate! 
(and I rec going to JoAnnFabric store and picking thru the remnants and getting a fleece throw for the crate - since you are getting a puppy - really? a puppy? How cute! anyway, I've been working for Project Linus, and the extra fleece we "braid" and knot for a chew toy - You can buy those ropes at the Pet stores - my puppy chews those apart in 10 minutes - so not kidding, but the fleece, he just throws it up and shakes it and brings it to me to throw - then he grabs it, shakes it, throws it up himself - really really cute!)

Also for a name - Belle for a girl for sure!!

and male vs female - I have only owned females, I love females - they dont spray, they dont run away, they dont have to pee every single step you take - HOWEVER, the rescue we have now, well, he's a male!! BUT, he does pee like a girl!! (lol - someone said it was because he was spayed young - but the vet said some dogs just do it that way!)

Now get this - we watched one of those training videos, and since I got him around Christmas, we tried it - we hung a bell on our door - so for the first month we had him to potty train, we kept on a schedule - and he only had a few accidents - BUT, each time we went out we touched the bell, rang it, and said outside - then once outside we do say "potty - hurry up" then we walk him - so I walk to exercise, not to eliminate, so he didnt get the 2 confused...

now of course, I'm so amazed that he does on his own ring that bell to go out!! (and dh thinks he rings it just to look outside, or if he's bored, but, I so love that he rings a bell to go out!!)


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## angelmum3

so anyway - I'm excited for you!!

You have a lot of love to give a dog, and a dog has lots of love to give in return!

dont worry about male vs female, it sounds like you getting in touch with the breeder was an excellent notion - 

Cant wait to see how it all works out, but really August seems like a long time to wait!!


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## Sandpiper

*Angelmum*, I'm going to try hanging a bell on my door knob or some such. Good idea. Smart dog.


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## angelmum3

knowing your reading habits Sandpiper - you will find your own way! I also enjoy watching Its Me or the Dog - for how she helps families with training - the gentle, kind approach...

I know there are lots of choices for food - I posted in the adopting poodle thread about what our vet and rescue group recommended Canidae http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html I think for me with all the different dogs and food, the one thing that I am amazed about is how little (comparison) (1/2 C am & 1/2C pm) food, and how good his digestion handles it! Like clockwork! 2 - 3 times a day! I know the vet said to look at the holistic but to go with the foods that have high protein, and be careful of food coloring (apparently Science Diet dogfood has food coloring? Blue Buffalo and Nutro also get high praises - I buy the dogfood from a "mom and pop" pet store - they carry Canidae for the same price at Pet Supplies Plus... and they have a return customer appreciation - when I buy 10 bags I get 11th free... ! There are so many choices - lots to research!

I have to add, about the Kong - I've taken to giving him his peanut butter kong while I eat my breakfast (and surf online) well, its become a game - since he plays with it, I lose it, I made him "go find" and he did - so now its a routine - he has to bring it to me when I tap the peanut butter container - he runs around, and runs around, then brings me the kong...

so I am a crazy dog owner! (or my dog found just the right human to train!)


----------



## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

Answer is still No...LOL


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We are feeding our dogs Blue food. Caya gets Blue Wilderness Salmon and Cooper gets Blue Puppy Lamb and Oatmeal. I like that they don't use any fillers and that they use a good amount of protein. Recently, we have cut Caya back to two meals of 1/2 cup of dog food and 1/2 cup of green beans. The beans are low cal but fill her up and she really likes them. 

There are a lot of good quality dog foods out there so I am sure you will find one that you like. In my opinion it is better to buy a more expensive but great food then buy a less expensive ok food. It was recommended to me that I find a food that lists some sort of protein as the first ingredient and that it is best if there are at least two proteins listed in the first five ingredients. The more expensive foods tend to require smaller servings in order to get the dog the same nutritional amounts as the less exensive foods with lots of filler. And the poops are smaller. 

My dogs love Kong toys. They have become their primary toy, mainly because Cooper can chew through anything. The toys rated 10 out of 10 for toughness, take him a day or two to get through. Caya would take 6 months to get through the same toy. So far his Kongs have been holding up well. We he hit the 6 month mark we got him a Galileo bone but we wanted to wait until we knew his teeth were fully in and developed.


----------



## cc84

Well good on you, I look forward to pics and stuff.


----------



## Sandpiper

Update.  I talked with another breeder in the area this morning.  His Border is delivering this week, so . . . I am getting one of his.  He is expecting tan grizzle (which I'd prefer, but doesn't really matter) as opposed to blue & tan expected by other breeder.  Time frame for me now is late June as opposed to mid August.  

I learned a male dog is a dog.  So I want a dog.  Or do I want a dog dog?   

Think I'm starting all over with names.


----------



## stever

Sandpiper said:


> ?


You asked a question. I responded. You'll just have to make up your own mind.


----------



## angelmum3

Sandpiper said:


> Update. I talked with another breeder in the area this morning. His Border is delivering this week, so . . . I am getting one of his. He is expecting tan grizzle (which I'd prefer, but doesn't really matter) as opposed to blue & tan expected by other breeder. Time frame for me now is late June as opposed to mid August.
> 
> I learned a male dog is a dog. So I want a dog. Or do I want a dog dog?
> 
> Think I'm starting all over with names.


I was telling dh about your search - he asked how you would pick one breeder over another (since you were waiting until August) It sounds like dogs are on your mind - I'm sure the breeder will help you pick too - I know there is a book Puppy for Dummies (because my son bought it for me!) that talks about picking a puppy - Puppies are a lot of work, but again, just too cute!

Right now my Zeus is laying next to me on the couch (I gave in, but I do keep a sheet thrown over my couch because I cant seem to keep the dog hair off - I've tried everything, mostly I buy the tape on a roller, and roll daily - vacuum the couch weekly - I talked to a couple of friends that have a dyson, and they say its not worth the money - replacement costs of dyson are extraordinarily high - - I've tried other pet hair remover products on the market, but the dollar store tapey thingy works best)

Anyway - dh is camping this weekend, dd is at a sleepover, and having Z here besides me, is just too darned cute! Yes, its work, I have to walk him (what a difference it makes!) yes, I have to keep the kleenex off the floor (why he loves kleenex is beyond me!) but he was never a chewer (other puppies do chew chair legs, etc etc)

Hope you keep us updated!!


----------



## Amyshojai

Sarah Hodgson is great! (author of P-4-Dummies)

Love Victoria Stillwell, too (It's Me Or the Dog)

I'm currently working on the launch of a new about.com site on puppies so that'll have loads of free info by May (we hope). Picking breeders--you want them to quiz you and qualify you as much as you qualify them. It's great the breeder is local so you can actually visit the facilities and see how they're raised, see the temperament of the mom dog at least, and have a "mentor" on call to help out with the inevitable questions.


----------



## Sandpiper

Nancy was the breeder I got my Border from 40 years ago.  Found contact for her on-line -- so I did.  She's still in the area, but up in years a little so no longer breeding dogs.  She gave me name of two breeders in the area she knows (and gave them my name).  Those are the two I've talked to.  Getting puppy from breeder who will have them available sooner.  (Border Terrier litters average four.  I want a dog.  So not a lot to choose from.  Possibly no choice if three females, one male.)  Seems everybody in the Chicago area Border community knows everybody else.  Nancy and the two breeders all know each other.  Looks like I'm becoming part of "everybody" too.  Found a dog groomer who knows Nancy.  Owner of a dog training school in town where I am knows Nancy.  I'll have to ask her for a recommendation for a vet.  There are a few, but I know nothing about them.  Vet I liked so much in the '50s (saved the Beagle in my signature - he was near death from something Dr. Burke said was like hepatitis in humans) -- well, he is looooong gone.

Forty years ago there were very few Border breeders.  All these years later, there still aren't many.  The breed just isn't that well known in the U.S.  They originated in the British Isles -- Northumberland.  That's the England - Scotland border.  Therefore, Border Terrier.  They're very common in the British Isles.


----------



## Sandpiper

There's a Border in England.


----------



## Vegas_Asian

Have u considered med insurance for ur dog? I know it sounds weird but my parents got it for 'our' (my *cough cough*) dog when we got her. We pay 27-ish a month and 150-200 initially.  Vaccines covered and annual teeth cleaning covered as well as her twice a year check up


----------



## Amyshojai

Yes, lots of pet insurance options today. The oldest/biggest company VPI (Veterinary Pet Insurance) sort of wrote the book on the industry but there are others now. There's also Credit Care that kind of like a credit pay as you go plan. Other folks "self insure" and just put that $20 away each month in a "pet account." 

Priciest time in a pet's life is babyhood, and old age. Good to plan for the worst case and then you're in clover when it doesn't happen.

Saw lots of Border Terriers at Westminster last time I attended. They're like curious little old men, so wise and "with it" and into everything! Love the James Herriot pic.


----------



## Beatriz

Sandpiper said:


> I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me.
> 
> I came a little close yesterday. At least it made me a little more sure about it. Went to local pet shop to get bird seed. They always have a few mixed breed puppies. Couple weeks ago I dreamed that I got a dachshund. So yesterday in the pet shop they had mixed min dachsie / min pin. I sure thought about it, but no.
> 
> There is a certain breed I want. Border Terrier. I had one 40 years ago. No dog since. Beagles and Borders -- my favs. (Borders book store also favorite. )
> 
> This is my long gone Border, Ribbon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a condo. (Dogs under 20 lbs. permitted. Full grown Borders are app. 15 lbs.) No longer work. Home a lot. NO family.
> 
> I don't remember how we housebroke our Beagle and Border. Today it's generally done with a crate / crate training? Borders are smart little things. I don't think it would be too much of a problem (hopefully). It's said of Borders -- they're a big dog in a little dog's body.


get a doggie, they are good for the soul.


----------



## cc84

I agree with angelmum, puppy's are hard work! I actually forgot how hard lol. And i'm glad i'm not the only one who lets mine on the sofa  

But having said that, i know it could be worse. Since we got him, he's rarely had any toilet accidents, he used his paper straight away. And he doesnt chew the furniture (so far!). He's 14 weeks old tomorrow and had his last injection today, so i took him for a short walk. 

Sorry to hijack your thread with my dog lol. I dont see that many Border Terrier's, but apparantly my uncle got one recently although i've not seen it. I like the pics, they definately do remind me of little old men for some reason lol. I'd be tempted to give mine an older name like Albert or something


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Puppies are hard work but they are well worth it. We went nuts with chew toys and I think that is what has saved our possessions. Both dogs seem to like underwear and socks so my Husband has finally learned how to use the hamper. Cooper does enjoy gnawing on wood and cloth but the bitter apple has worked wonders. We can spray some of that on what he was chewing and he does not go near it again. 

We realized that Cooper loves anything with a squeker in it. More precisly, he loves the squeaker and will do whatever it takes to get the squeaker out. There are some Kong balls with squeakers that seem to make him very happy and are relativly cheap so all the other squeaker toys, may the rest in pieces, have been replaced.

I figure I would rather buy a few hundred dollars worth of toys then replace a couch.


----------



## louiseb

angelmum3 said:


> Right now my Zeus is laying next to me on the couch (I gave in, but I do keep a sheet thrown over my couch because I cant seem to keep the dog hair off - I've tried everything, mostly I buy the tape on a roller, and roll daily - vacuum the couch weekly - I talked to a couple of friends that have a dyson, and they say its not worth the money - replacement costs of dyson are extraordinarily high - - I've tried other pet hair remover products on the market, but the dollar store tapey thingy works best)


I know your pain! I finally bought a leather couch and chair for my main living area. The hair just brushes off.


----------



## Amyshojai

Hmnnn.  Love my Dyson. Have leather sofa/chair the dog sits on, but the cat prefers the tapestry upholstery. The Furminator is the best grooming tool, bar none, that I've ever found for getting rid of shed fur. *s* Wish I owned stock, I recommend it enough.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Love the furminator. Cooper is not a big fan but we love it. Silly boy manages to produce enough fur each day to knit a set of mittens.


----------



## angelmum3

I have a generic furminator (I bought the real thing for my son - I didnt have a dog then!)  It gets the under fur great- but the top fur, I have to use something else on it!  

Let me know if you think the Furminator would do a better job!

I thought a Dyson would be great - but the few people here that have them (and love them) THink that it may not be worth it, my son loves the Kirby vacuum - but the Dyson, when it breaks, the parts are very expensive - So I'm still torn!


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm interested in good grooming tools.  I've never heard of the Furminator.  But I'm wondering if it would work on a Border.  They need to be fully stripped app. twice a year -- meaning the top rough coat of dead hair is pulled out leaving the soft undercoat.  Would it still work for general grooming?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

They have furminators for different size dogs and coats. My dogs use the medium coat one and it works great. You could ask the breeder that you are getting the pup from about them.


----------



## Amyshojai

For the Border Terrier you'd likely need a stripping tool. Furminator has a website with video--it's particularly helpful for heavy undercoated dogs.

http://www.furminator.com/


----------



## Jane917

Jack gets his weekly furmination too!


----------



## Sandpiper

*Birth*day was yesterday. One male and three females. Breeder says they're all fat and healthy. I'm figuring I will get him weekend of June 25 / 26. Still hurts to think of taking baby away from his mama forever.


----------



## Amyshojai

Awwwwww...so birtday today, and "gotcha-day" in late June. He'll trade his mom and siblings for you, no question! First week or so can be tough but new behavior tools like the DAP pheromone can be an enormous help for new pups. It reduces fear.


----------



## Sandpiper

Has everyone but me seen this before? I bought the book in Borders today. The book led me to the Youtube and web site.


----------



## Val2

You should get a dog, undoubtedly you should. You will love him to bits and should spoil him. He should sleep on your bed and wake you up with sloppy kisses! Yes, get a dog, a really good idea.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Has everyone but me seen this before? I bought the book in Borders today. The book led me to the Youtube and web site.


Yes, that's one of my all time favorite videos/songs. Just lovely.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

Sandpiper said:


> Has everyone but me seen this before? I bought the book in Borders today. The book led me to the Youtube and web site.


Ohhh, thanks for sharing that. Mine is snoring beneath my computer desk right now.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm hoping to get puppy pics for Mom's Day.  Breeder sent link to video of puppies in Facebook, but I'm not registered there.  Kind of refuse to.  I e-mailed back to breeder.  I'm hoping for still photo(s) today.


----------



## Amy Corwin

We've got two dogs (and two cats) and I frankly would be miserable without them.
Sure, you have to feed and walk them, but then, they are my excuse to get outside at least twice a day to actually walk and get some exercise. And my husband and I can hold hands and decompress/talk about our day as we take the four-legged children for their constitutional, so it's good mentally and physically.

In other words--YES! 
They are always happy to see you. They'll always love you. 
They're good for you!

Some of our animals have been strays, some "chosen". We love them all.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amy Corwin said:


> Sure, you have to feed and walk them, . . .


And "pick up" after them. Oh, well. Good exercise bending down. 

I do wonder if dogs are mystified about why us humans are pickin' up that stuff and takin' it home.


----------



## CaitLondon

It would be good exercise, walking a dog. I saw an adorable huge dog at Petco's adoption yesterday. His name was Kolo and he was mostly mastiff. Elegant dog, noble, proudly ignoring the indignancy of his really small cage. Loved him, but alas no fenced yard, just a tiny house. At 3 years old, he was so stately. Loved him.


----------



## Amyshojai

Amy, loved the pictures of your dogs! When my first GSD died, I gained a bunch of weight because I was no longer getting out and walking with him. And when we got Magical-Dawg, I again lost weight just trying to keep up with him.


----------



## caseyf6

Amy S, dumb question but what is the D in GSD?  German Shepherd...dog?


----------



## Leslie

caseyf6 said:


> Amy S, dumb question but what is the D in GSD? German Shepherd...dog?


Yes, that's the official name of the breed: German Shepherd Dog.

L


----------



## Amyshojai

caseyf6 said:


> Amy S, dumb question but what is the D in GSD? German Shepherd...dog?


Not dumb at all. Yep, you guessed right. *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Finally!










There are actually four. One is hiding. The single male is mine. Don't know which. Going to see them this coming weekend. Bring him home weekend of June 18 / 19. I'm leaning very much towards Burke for his name. Named in honor of a long ago veterinarian who saved Beagle's (below) life.


----------



## Amyshojai

SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!


----------



## Val2

C'mon now, you know you want to and you know you will love it too bits! So go ahead aand get one and then post pics, lots of them!!


----------



## Sandpiper

Val2 said:


> C'mon now, you know you want to and you know you will love it too bits! So go ahead aand get one and then post pics, lots of them!!


I am getting the only male of the four. Bringing him home weekend of June 18 / 19. He'll be nine weeks then. Too little now.


----------



## Anne Victory

Sandpiper said:


> I could start crate shopping. They weren't used 40 - 55 years ago when we had the Beagle and later the Border. What size for a 15 lb. dog? Some have movable interior walls? Anything else in particular I should look for in a crate?


Depends on if you plan on flying or not, among other things. If you plan on flying (with your pet) then you want one that's cleared for airplanes - these are usually the plastic ones that don't fold. If it's for home use or travel via road, I like the folding wire ones. If you want to give it a darker, more "cave-like" feel, you can drape a blanket over it. As for size - I generally recommend getting one that the dog will be able to stand at full height without having to crouch and also he should be able to turn around in the crate. While you're potty training, though, you either want a crate with partitions or to find a box or similar that you can use to block off a portion of the crate. If the dog can pee/poop in one corner of the crate and then lay down in the opposite corner, it won't help them learn to hold it - they'll just learn that the back corner of the crate makes an awesome bathroom ;-)


----------



## Sandpiper

I did get a crate already.  It's one of the plastic / fiberglass crates -- good for flying, but don't think that will happen.  (Who knows though?)  Breeder I got my Border Terrier from 40 years ago like that type of crate, so that's what I got.


----------



## Anne Victory

MichelleR said:


> Dear spotsmom,
> 
> You are clearly mistaken in that they smell like Fritos.


Sooooo glad that I'm not the only one to think this. And it's not just puppies - Pippin's 10ish and he still has Frito paws.


----------



## Anne Victory

Sandpiper said:


> I did get a crate already. It's one of the plastic / fiberglass crates -- good for flying, but don't think that will happen. (Who knows though?) Breeder I got my Border Terrier from 40 years ago like that type of crate, so that's what I got.


Heh, yeah. I noticed I came into the thread late - d'oh! Just caught up - those are some CUTE puppies. Adorable!! I'm sooo excited for you  Oh - not sure if you've decided on a food yet, but I use Natural Balance - I swear by it:
http://naturalbalanceinc.com - Awesome company, awesome food.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

There are a ton of really good dog foods out there. It might take a while to find one that works but I would recommend buying one of the higher end dog foods and not anything by Pedigree, Hill, Purina or the other big names. For the most part the large mass producing dog food companies use more filler ingredients and ones that are less nutritiou (like brewers rice) then the higher end, less mass produced dog foods. They can a bit more expensive, Taste of the Wild is about the same price as Science Diet actually but Natural Balance is more expensive bu a few dollars, but your dog will need to eat less and poops will be smaller.

If you do a search for dog food reviews, you will find some sites that write reviews for many dog foods. Natural Balance tends to be in the middle of the pack. There are many that use better quality ingredients and are the same price as Natural Balance. Blue Buffalo, Taste of the Wild are two that I know of.

Caya loves her Blue Buffalo Wilderness Salmon and all of the various foods we have tried for Cooper that have not worked (Blue Buffalo Lamb and Oatmeal, Science Diet Natural Lamb and Rice, Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice, Natural Balance Salmon and Sweet Potato). Once we find a food that Cooper is good with we will transition Caya to that food. Well, and once we finish off the giant bag of food we have for her so it might be a while.

This site was recommended to me in a different topic. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


----------



## Sandpiper

Our Beagle (see below) lived mostly on Ken-L Biscuit.  He seemed to do just fine.  Only thing I remember vet saying waaay back then was be careful of too much salt / sodium in dog food.


----------



## MichelleR

Some dogs thrive on anything, just like some people thrive on McDonald's. From a nutrition stand point though, I'd agree most pet foods are atrocious. 

(And those are some adorable puppies!)


----------



## Amyshojai

Guess I have to respectfully disagree that "most pet foods are atrocious"...from a nutrition standpoint.

Pet food companies are in the business of making foods that 1) owners will feed 2)dogs/cats like and will eat 3)provide adequate (not ideal!) nutrition for the greatest number of animals.

Foods that are not nutritions will not provide good health (shiny coats, good energy, proper growth, normal poops *s*), be palatable so the pet will actually eat 'em. And MOST owners stop opening pocket books if any of these things happen. 

Pet food companies are not interested in making pets sick--that's bad for bidness, ya don't kill off your "audience." Killing off pets with substandard nutrition would be like an author writing crappy books that get tasted once, then returned and that author's work blackballed.   A majority of pets are average and do well on average nutrition/products. None of us wants to think our dog/cat is average, though, so there's a whole sub-industry built on that marketing issue...

Do pets perform better on specialty foods? It depends. Yes, a percentage do MUCH better! And if you have one of this percentage, or a breeding animal, or a performance animal, or simply like going that extra mile for Fluffy & Fido, then do it. But if your dog or cat does well (likes the food, grows well, shiny coat, good energy, healthy "output" etc) I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I generally recommend listening to the breeder about what's worked over the longterm for his/her animals; the vet for recommendations (they get breaking news on innovations and/or problems); and look at the track record of the company.


----------



## MichelleR

Amy,
I can't actually argue with you. I find most foods substandard, but I'm a pet food snob. I realize objectively that most pets will do okay, even more than okay, with most brands on the market, but on an emotional level the thought of feeding my kids Purina when there are much better brands leaves me -- well, that's my issue.  

I lost a Sheltie a couple years ago who was just my heart. He lived until 13 and 1/2, which is pretty darned good, and yet it doesn't feel that way. I'd had him since a puppy and he'd received the best of everything. Throughout his life, I'd rescued adult dogs, and every one of them outlived him in years -- 3 other Shelties making it to about 16. I had to reconcile that even the best food in the world is no protection against genetics and fate, but I'm still going to feed my dogs the best because my comfort with Riley was knowing there was nothing to regret or wonder about. I'm glad I don't have to question if he could have lived longer if the food had been a little better, or whatever. 

Again, I can see that as my issue though and a slightly neurotic one at that.


----------



## Amyshojai

Michelle, I'm a pet CARE snob (food, health, training) and so you are my people, LOL! Just trying to wear the journalist hat.    Please, no offense was meant at all and I don't fault anyone for choosing the best-of-the-best as they see it. 

I grew up with shelties, they're delightful dogs. The hurt of losing a heart-dog never goes away, does it? And...13-1/2 years on paper looks good but 16-18-30 years would not be enough for those special ones.


----------



## MichelleR

Amyshojai said:


> Michelle, I'm a pet CARE snob (food, health, training) and so you are my people, LOL! Just trying to wear the journalist hat.  Please, no offense was meant at all and I don't fault anyone for choosing the best-of-the-best as they see it.
> 
> I grew up with shelties, they're delightful dogs. The hurt of losing a heart-dog never goes away, does it? And...13-1/2 years on paper looks good but 16-18-30 years would not be enough for those special ones.


I wasn't offended. I've long been a fan of you and your advice.

You're right that there will always be an ache there when I say his name -- lots of good memories too. I told my husband recently that if I could go back and live in any moment it would be us at the park with him. Riley still a young guy, always up for a walk, or frisbee, or finding me after I've ducked behind a tree. Of course, I realize that I did type 13 and 1/2 and I don't know where I got that -- he'd just turned 14, which I know full well and good since I knew in my heart on his last birthday that it would be his last.

Maybe I'm the one who needs better kibble.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm thinking of getting a pen to use inside for coming Border Terrier. In reading comments, some people have said their dogs pee and poo outside, but also use pads indoors when it's more convenient for dogs' people. Can dogs learn to do both -- go out and use pads indoors? Most books I've read said that's confusing for them.


----------



## Amyshojai

Dogs are smart and most can learn about anything...BUT...for a pup, I'd concentrate on one thing at a time. And my preference always is "outside" for potty. *s* Once he's faithful to that, then yes, you could have an alternate potty for bad weather or if/when you're gone loooong hours.

An indoor pen isn't a bad idea anyway, though. I suspect you'll find uses for that. Or segregated areas of the house with baby gates.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We used an indoor pen with Cooper but it didn't last long. He wanted to playe with Caya and Caya wanted to play with him. I think it would work great with a single dog. It decreases the dogs roaming area and makes it less likely that the puppy will have an accident in the house.


----------



## Sandpiper

Dog will be an "only child" here.  I probably will try the pen.  I'm in a one bedroom condo.  Not enough options in it to simply bar off an area.  

I tend to over stress about things -- e.g., housetraining.  (One books says "housetraining", NOT "housebreaking" as nothing, including the dog, is broken.)  But I'm thinking positive . . . it WILL go well.


----------



## Amyshojai

Oh yes, it WILL go well--think positive! Catch puppy in the act of doing something RIGHT and then throw a praise-party.  Oh, and for what it's worth, my brand-new http://www.puppies.About.com site is now live with all kinds of puppy-licious free info (and places to share SQUEEEE! photos & stories)


----------



## MamaProfCrash

The pen should work great. It helps contain the little guy and decreases the likelihood of his peeing or pooping in the house.


----------



## Sandpiper

Last year I had all the carpeting pulled up and put down wood-looking flooring. It's not even laminate. Something tougher than that. At the time, I was thinkin' someday it may get peed and pooed on. (Thinking positive -- NO, it won't.) So at home I only walk on that flooring or ceramic tile.


----------



## Sandpiper

I got this service bell he can learn to ring for when "I gotta go." Saw a Westie on AFV recently ding the bell.

Anyone have experience with dog slings? Looks like a good idea for small dogs. Mostly positive comments.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

My dogs never picked up on the bell. (shrugs)


----------



## Wunderkind

Sandpiper said:


> I got this service bell he can learn to ring for when "I gotta go." Saw a Westie on AFV recently ding the bell.


I LOVED that video clip! That dog was so cute!


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

one of my friends has an English Mastiff dog/horse (her daughters named her Jane after Jane Austen).  She rings a bell to go out, but it's a christmas decoration hung on the door handle (which is really good for Jane, since she comes up to my waist and I'm 5'9).  Of course, Jane also rings it when she just wants to have a look.  From what I remember Susan telling me, they rang the bell everytime they took Jane out and by the time she was potty trained, she had learned to associate the ringing w/ going outside.  Now when Jane wants in, she hits the door hard enough to cause the bell to ring again.


----------



## Casper Parks

I have a cat, love him... Been with me for years. When Charlie passes from old age, will not have another pet. Figure, dog or cat you are promising to take of him/her for 12 to 20 years.


----------



## Sandpiper

Alle Meine Entchen said:


> Of course, Jane also rings it when she just wants to have a look.


That's what I was wondering . . . how to teach him to ring it only when he has to go, not also when he wants to go out for a sniff of air.  As I've said upthread, I'm in a condo (2nd floor) so that means WE go out (him on a leash) -- not just him out the door.


----------



## balaspa

Dogs are the greatest thing ever.  I honestly feel like nature got it right with dogs.  They are loving and loyal.  They are always there for you, unlike most people.  Dogs are fantastic.  So, I say yes..


----------



## Amyshojai

RE: the dog slings....positives and negatives. Many small dogs get carried in pooch purses and arms and dog slings so much their toes never touch the ground. IMO little dogs need to act like DOGS just as much as the big guys, and running around under their own power for exercise and normal doggy activities is important. There can be issues of bigger dogs wanting to jump up and try to grab pooches that are elevated. So for occassional "hands free" trips being carried around, it's fine probably but I wouldn't make a habit of it.  

The door ringing -- no real way to ensure the pooch won't abuse that ding-dong to get a chance to check things out. Best way to reduce messing around and make sure the pup gets down to business is to put the 'potty' act on command, and not allow play/sniffing/fun stuff until after s/he has been productive.


----------



## caseyf6

Oh my gosh...between the frito-paws (they really do smell like that, I agree) and that PHOTO I am wanting a dog so much.  I love them, dh doesn't...sigh.  

But I live vicariously.


----------



## cc84

balaspa said:


> Dogs are the greatest thing ever. I honestly feel like nature got it right with dogs. They are loving and loyal. They are always there for you, unlike most people. Dogs are fantastic. So, I say yes..


Totally agree, well said


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> RE: the dog slings....positives and negatives. Many small dogs get carried in pooch purses and arms and dog slings so much their toes never touch the ground. IMO little dogs need to act like DOGS just as much as the big guys, and running around under their own power for exercise and normal doggy activities is important. There can be issues of bigger dogs wanting to jump up and try to grab pooches that are elevated. So for occassional "hands free" trips being carried around, it's fine probably but I wouldn't make a habit of it.
> 
> The door ringing -- no real way to ensure the pooch won't abuse that ding-dong to get a chance to check things out. Best way to reduce messing around and make sure the pup gets down to business is to put the 'potty' act on command, and not allow play/sniffing/fun stuff until after s/he has been productive.


IF I get the sling (think I probably will), I do intend to use it only occasionally when my small full grown dog is not yet full grown. Even though sling is supposed to be good for dogs up to 20 lbs., I'd think my full grown 12 - 15 Border Terrier would get to feeling kind of heavy and uncomfortable before long.

Going to show him how to use bell only when we're going out "to go" and then coming right back in -- not going out just for fun. Hopefully he'll catch on to that.

I still don't know for absolutely sure, but am still leaning towards Burke for his name.


----------



## Amyshojai

Burke...the Barker. I like!


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Burke...the Barker. I like!


I hope not. That's the one thing I'm worried about -- barking. Cuz I'm in a condo. That would NOT be good. Actually, I'm not too worried that Burke will bark -- other than hopefully "speak" when asked to. We had no problems with barking with previous Beagle and Border Terrier. Just remember one time, ONE time only, Beagle was out at night, sat and looked up at the moon . . . and he bayed!


----------



## mscottwriter

We used pet finder to find Bandit, our border collie, who was nearly a year old when we got him. I was a little worried at first because I didn't know why his previous owners had ditched him at animal control. I had small children at the time, and I didn't know if he would nip them or jump on them or what.

But he turned out to the be the friendliest, most lovable dog! He was sweet-tempered from the get-go. He never got on the furniture or jumped up on people. The worst he did was chew on a flip flop and, once, a Barbie doll.

Here he is with his "little brother" (who was also a rescue pet).









He was such a sweetie that I wrote him into my book, lol.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I hope not. That's the one thing I'm worried about -- barking. Cuz I'm in a condo. That would NOT be good. Actually, I'm not too worried that Burke will bark -- other than hopefully "speak" when asked to. We had no problems with barking with previous Beagle and Border Terrier. Just remember one time, ONE time only, Beagle was out at night, sat and looked up at the moon . . . and he bayed!


OMG, Beagles were BRED to bark--so if you had no problems with a Beagle, surely you'll be fine with the new lil' guy. *s*


----------



## Pawz4me

Keep in mind that breed characteristics are generalities.  They'll be true of many dogs in the breed, but not all.  My beagle would make a wonderful apartment dog, because she's very quiet.  She might bark once a month.  I think in her case it has a lot to do with being so lazy.  Barking just takes too much energy.


----------



## Sandpiper

Yes, every person and _every animal_ is an individual.


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## MamaProfCrash

[Monty Python Voice] I'm not! [/Monty Python Voice}


----------



## KenIsaacson

Absolutely!


----------



## Sandpiper

I expect it will be just three weeks from this weekend!!!


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## Amyshojai

You MUST post puppy-licious pictures!

Ken, that's a gorgeous doggy.


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## caseyf6

Love the eyes on that little pup.


----------



## MichelleR

Amyshojai said:


> OMG, Beagles were BRED to bark.


Any Sheltie reading this ( ) is now barking out something that can be translated as, "Bah, Beagles, Amateurs!" In case the people around them missed it, the Shelties will repeat it -- again and again. 

I got my first Sheltie from a breeder, before rescue became so close to my heart. I contacted the breeders years later and discovered my dog's mom had died from complications from a "de-bark" operation gone wrong -- too much scar tissue. She was really a lovely dog and when I saw her I hoped the puppy I got would grow up to be just as beautiful -- and he did. I know her owners meant well, but that surgery should not be done lightly, if at all.

When I worked at the shelter, we used to see a lot of Beagles as strays -- I imagine they followed an interesting scent only to look up and wonder where they heck they'd ended up at. One wandered right into the middle of the expressway. Eesh. Beagle ears are one (two?) of the coolest things ever.


----------



## lpking

MichelleR said:


> I imagine they followed an interesting scent only to look up and wonder where they heck they'd ended up at. One wandered right into the middle of the expressway. Eesh.


We had a dog which looked like a black Lab/spaniel cross, but must have had some beagle in him. He never ended up in the expressway, but he did learn where McDonalds and the Safeway were. I had people try to pay me to buy him because "he's such a nice dog!" Once, we went to a different city for a swim meet, and he escaped from the yard of the place where we were staying and was gone the whole weekend. It was only by luck that I found him, less than an hour before we had to leave for home, inside the garden gate of a very lonely lady who was willing to pay me almost anything to keep him.


----------



## Sandpiper

When our Beagle got free, we'd put out the word in the neighborhood. Kids would go looking for him. We lived just a half block from a grade school. Little kids got to know our Beagle. Kids would ring our doorbell and ask if he could come out to play. _He was the sweetest._


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## MamaProfCrash

And this is why I have micro chipped dogs. You never know when the collars are going to come off and the dogs are going to escape. The micro chip should help them find their way home.


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## Amyshojai

Shelties--I grew up with 'em. LOVE 'em, but they do rival the barking-est dawgies. 

Last night Magical-Dawg "went south" on my husband. He was on leash, but a coyote (DASTARDLY CRITTER!) raced across HIS field and so Magic just had to give chase...yanked the leash from husband's hand and was off and running. He came back in twenty minutes dragging the leash (and his tongue on the ground). He's microchipped but it'd take some seriously dog-savvy folks to get close enough to nab him.


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## Sandpiper

Burke is supposed to be already microchipped when I get him.


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## Sandpiper

Can anyone recommend a good DTB book on clicker training?  It's lightly touched in a couple books I bought.  Got my Karen Pryor clicker, but don't know if her how-to book is necessarily the best.


----------



## Pawz4me

Not a book, but you might want to check out Clicker Solutions. There are some good training articles on the site, plus information about the Clicker Solutions Yahoo list, if you're interested in joining.


----------



## Jane917

I love clicker training. Karen Pryor has a website if you don't want to buy the book. I found the book very good.


----------



## Amyshojai

Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes virtually invented clicker training for dogs.   They're the wizards. Of course there are lots of other great books, too. If you want the best in dog training (or other doggy) books, to got DogWise.com.


----------



## Jane917

Amyshojai said:


> Karen Pryor and Gary Wilkes virtually invented clicker training for dogs.  They're the wizards. Of course there are lots of other great books, too. If you want the best in dog training (or other doggy) books, to got DogWise.com.


Hey, DogWise is in my town!


----------



## Sandpiper

Thanks.  Dogwise led me to Peggy Tillman's book "Clicking With Your Dog: Step-By-Step In Pictures".  I ordered it from Amazon.  Reviews there, in particular, look good.


----------



## Sandpiper

Well, that soured. We "didn't fit [each other's] criteria". The breeder would not communicate. He said he doesn't check e-mail / doesn't e-mail. When I'd get him on the phone, he was too busy to talk. "I'll call you on . . . ." And then he didn't call. He did NOT communicate until I turned on my computer this morning and there was a lengthy e-mail from him. I didn't fit his criteria. He would not and will not in the future sell a puppy to me. OK.

So I found Brentwood Borders. I've talked to and e-mailed with the breeder Kathy. Third puppy down "blue and tan male" MAY be available. She should know in a few days if he's taken or not. If not, he's mine. And if he is, Kathy knows another Border breeder in Michigan who has pups and will be passing through the Chicago area in 2 - 3 weeks. Likely to get one of hers. In any case, Kathy said, "We'll get you a pup."


----------



## Amyshojai

Whoa...well better you find out now! Sorry that happened. But I'm thrilled that my breeder (even after 4+ years!) still stays in touch with me, and asks about my Magical-boy. She just recently had one of her puppy buyers visit with the 7+ year old dog to visit before they moved away to N Dakota! A great breeder is a joy and wonderful support system so hope your puppy comes with one of those.


----------



## Tatiana

Whoa, I agree with Amy, it's better you find out now.  We're going back to the breeder of our current Scottie for our second one.  I spoke with them today.  They don't communicate via eMail and they state that on the website so all conversations are via phone, but they DO communicate willingly via phone.  We were very pleased with our first Scottie that we want to go back to the same breeder for our 2nd one.  Hopefully, we'll have one by the end of summer.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Whoa...well better you find out now! Sorry that happened. But I'm thrilled that my breeder (even after 4+ years!) still stays in touch with me, and asks about my Magical-boy. She just recently had one of her puppy buyers visit with the 7+ year old dog to visit before they moved away to N Dakota! A great breeder is a joy and wonderful support system so hope your puppy comes with one of those.





Tatiana said:


> Whoa, I agree with Amy, it's better you find out now. We're going back to the breeder of our current Scottie for our second one. I spoke with them today. They don't communicate via eMail and they state that on the website so all conversations are via phone, but they DO communicate willingly via phone. We were very pleased with our first Scottie that we want to go back to the same breeder for our 2nd one. Hopefully, we'll have one by the end of summer.


If I get Kathy's pup (Brentwood), I know she would want to stay in contact. So would I. (I picture sort of like an "open adoption".) She wants to know who she is placing her pups with (selling to).

I was getting worried about getting pup from first breeder. If it happened, I think I'd be uncomfortable meeting him and talking with him after being so uncommunicative via phone and e-mail. I'm not going to pester anyone, but I do want to be able to communicate.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

If he wasn't communicating how did he know you didn't fit his criterion for a puppy? It sounds to me like he found someone willing to pay more for the pup then you.

Good luck with the new breeder.


----------



## Jane917

I am so sorry this is happening to you. However, it is very important to have a breeder that will work with you. I still have contact with Kona's breeder (he is 5) and Jack's breeder (he is 4). It is comforting to me that they still care about what happens to their puppies, even if they don't go to show homes.


----------



## Amyshojai

We waited 2 years for our Magic. It was worth the wait. In the meantime we got to visit earlier litters and got to know Gil. I even profiled her as an example of an "ideal breeder" on my puppies.about.com site. *s* The good ones are great! the bad ones...well...we won't go there. Sounds like Kathy is a good one and worth the wait.


----------



## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> If he wasn't communicating how did he know you didn't fit his criterion for a puppy? It sounds to me like he found someone willing to pay more for the pup then you.
> 
> Good luck with the new breeder.


I had the same thought myself. (I didn't think of the money end of it though. But who knows?) He was referred to me by the breeder I'd bought same breed pup from 40 years ago. And that breeder referred me to him as good buyer. I expect his pups were perfectly fine. But when I tried two - three times to set up time to see pup once before taking it home, got nowhere with him. Keep repeating myself -- any communication I tried went nowhere. I talked to the one other breeder in that group of three. Then she talked to him. He didn't like what he heard from her that I said?? And so I did not fit his criteria. The original go-between breeder is in the hospital. _Might_ have helped to talk to her. But she is unavaliable.


----------



## MichelleR

That IS disappointing. Does this guy show or is he interested in having his dogs shown? Could be that he deemed the puppies of that quality and didn't want them going to a pet home any longer.


----------



## Sandpiper

This is what he said about himself in that last e-mail:

"My wife and I are proud to have been the owner of the number one record holder and most decorated all breed group and best in show winning: Border Terrier, Gordon Setter, and Airedale Terrier in American Kennel Club, Inc. history.  Records are made and usually get broken; it is what competition is all about.  The best in show records that our dogs hold, have stood now for over ten years and may be broken some day but, it will obviously take a special dog.  So, not to carry on any longer about my knowledge about dogs, the records speak for themselves and are verifiable."

So?  He just relates better (only?) to dogs than humans?  He also said, "After our several phone conversations . . . ."  I really don't remember several.  And any there were didn't amount to anything.  I am happy he's gone gone gone.


----------



## medicalhumor

Adopt a dog that needs you just as much as you need hime!

Get a dog.

Mike Cyra


----------



## Amyshojai

Hmnnn....perhaps he mistook you for somebody else? In any event, you've got other options.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

MichelleR said:


> That IS disappointing. Does this guy show or is he interested in having his dogs shown? Could be that he deemed the puppies of that quality and didn't want them going to a pet home any longer.


That was my guess, Michelle. Could also be that he misinterpreted something or made some assumptions, but at any rate, sounds like placing dogs in competitive situations is very important to him.

As a longtime breeder (different breed), we've had many different experiences placing pups. With time, I learned the various situations and the kinds of owners with which our dogs fit best. I've actually had prospective owners get upset with me when I turned them away - and believe me, it's not easy to do because I understand everyone wants a dog they can love and be proud of - but sometimes they weren't right for concrete reasons and at other times my gut just told me, 'No.' And every time I ever went against my intuition, it came back to bite me later on. Sometimes I even got those dogs back and had to re-home them. 

On the flip side, I've communicated with possible owners that I just clicked with and who seemed the perfect candidate for our breed. Some had extensive experience with dogs; some didn't, but were committed to training and bonding with their dog. When it's really right, a breeder just knows.

I think it's sad when a breeder's ego (by way of many titles owners can put on their dogs for them) is more important than the happiness of the dog and finding an owner who wants a dog that will be an important part of their life. But each breeder has their own criteria. And yes, you are SO much better to have figured this out now. The right puppy is out there waiting for you. It will come along when the time is right.


----------



## Jane917

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> As a longtime breeder (different breed), we've had many different experiences placing pups. With time, I learned the various situations and the kinds of owners with which our dogs fit best. I've actually had prospective owners get upset with me when I turned them away - and believe me, it's not easy to do because I understand everyone wants a dog they can love and be proud of - but sometimes they weren't right for concrete reasons and at other times my gut just told me, 'No.' And every time I ever went against my intuition, it came back to bite me later on. Sometimes I even got those dogs back and had to re-home them.
> 
> On the flip side, I've communicated with possible owners that I just clicked with and who seemed the perfect candidate for our breed. Some had extensive experience with dogs; some didn't, but were committed to training and bonding with their dog. When it's really right, a breeder just knows.


You sound just like the type of breeder I look for when I am looking for a dog. I always am armed with lots of questions, but I expect the breeder to ask just as many questions of me, my family, and our purpose for wanting one of his/her dogs.


----------



## StephenLivingston

Should a dog get you?


----------



## Sandpiper

MichelleR said:


> That IS disappointing. Does this guy show or is he interested in having his dogs shown? Could be that he deemed the puppies of that quality and didn't want them going to a pet home any longer.


I don't really know about him. We had agreement that I was buying a pup from him over about a ten - twelve week period.

Kathy, the breeder who I hope I will get a pup from now, does say she would prefer placing pup with someone who is going to show. She has someone interested now who would show. But that placement isn't for sure yet. Kathy said if it does not happen, the pup is mine. (I have a hard time saying selling / buying pup. That is what's occurring, but it still is hard to say that about a dog's life.)


----------



## Sandpiper

StephenLivingston said:


> Should a dog get you?


I hope so. I hope a dog would be happy to live with me. Would feel loved and cared for. Life could be full of fun, food, and sleep.


----------



## Sandpiper

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> As a longtime breeder (different breed), we've had many different experiences placing pups. With time, I learned the various situations and the kinds of owners with which our dogs fit best. I've actually had prospective owners get upset with me when I turned them away - and believe me, it's not easy to do because I understand everyone wants a dog they can love and be proud of - but sometimes they weren't right for concrete reasons and at other times my gut just told me, 'No.' And every time I ever went against my intuition, it came back to bite me later on. Sometimes I even got those dogs back and had to re-home them.
> 
> On the flip side, I've communicated with possible owners that I just clicked with and who seemed the perfect candidate for our breed. Some had extensive experience with dogs; some didn't, but were committed to training and bonding with their dog. When it's really right, a breeder just knows.
> 
> I think it's sad when a breeder's ego (by way of many titles owners can put on their dogs for them) is more important than the happiness of the dog and finding an owner who wants a dog that will be an important part of their life. But each breeder has their own criteria. And yes, you are SO much better to have figured this out now. The right puppy is out there waiting for you. It will come along when the time is right





Jane917 said:


> You sound just like the type of breeder I look for when I am looking for a dog. I always am armed with lots of questions, but I expect the breeder to ask just as many questions of me, my family, and our purpose for wanting one of his/her dogs.


*EXACTLY* -- to both. That very much seems to be Kathy of Brentwood Borders and probably Carol and Cheryl, Border breeders Kathy knows in Michigan.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

Jane917 said:


> You sound just like the type of breeder I look for when I am looking for a dog. I always am armed with lots of questions, but I expect the breeder to ask just as many questions of me, my family, and our purpose for wanting one of his/her dogs.


Certainly. It's just as important for a breeder to know what's important to each potential owner and whether or not their dogs are a fit with that, as it is for the potential owner to understand what a breeder's priorities are in placing pups and even why they're breeding in the first place.

Most of the time people will tell me right off what they're looking for and also a lot about themselves. If they don't, I shoot them a list of open-ended questions. Sometimes they might be perfectly nice people, but their needs and expectations simply don't jive with what my dogs are, or the breed in general.

All that being said, pups from show lines can make fantastic companions. Many a Westminster champion sleeps on its owner's bed. And showing your dog (or trialing in obedience, agility, herding, field work, etc.) can be an incredible way to form a bond with your dog and meet new people. But even in the best show-bred litters, not every pups needs to be kept intact and bred one day or even shown.



> Should a dog get you?


So true, Stephen. It's us who control the quality of their lives. Big responsibility. Big reward when you find that heart-dog.


----------



## MichelleR

Sandpiper said:


> I don't really know about him. We had agreement that I was buying a pup from him over about a ten - twelve week period.


Oh, trust me, wasn't excusing him -- and I don't know for sure why he changed his mind. I was just speculating on the show thing. Breeders who show care about their reputation and (conformation) show dogs are basically being judged against the ideal of their breed and as potential breeding stock. If a puppy looks extra promising, some breeders might want it to go to a show home, as opposed to neutered and "hidden" in a pet home. That's just tossing that out there, could be way, waaaaaay off, and it sounds like you're going to end up with a puppy soon anyhow.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

I thought most litters had a pup or two that would not show well and that those were the dogs that went to pet homes.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yep, ProfCrash, often there are pups that are not show prospects--but sometimes that can be hard to tell at an early age. Bigger dogs have larger litters, too so there may be more leeway there.

My breeder used a temperament test (I've helped with the last few) to help predict puppy potential (as much as possible at that early age!) in order to better match prospective owners. A laid-back puppy might go best to a home with kids, while a more "driven" dog that tests well for Schutzhund potential is best placed with a more experienced handler. My breeder also offers a "kick back" for those dogs that end up getting hips/elbows evaluated and also for those that place titles on their dogs, because that all goes back as a reflection on the breeder. *shrug* 

N.Gemini, you sound like another one of those excellent breeders! And I agree that it works both ways--both parties need to feel comfortable about the placement. Re-homing later can be a chore, not to mention heartbreaking for all involved.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

ProfCrash said:


> I thought most litters had a pup or two that would not show well and that those were the dogs that went to pet homes.


Depends a lot on the litter... and the breeder. On paper, a potential breeding can look great. You find a male for your female who you _hope_ complements her - has strengths that outweigh her faults. I've had litters of 8 where I felt lucky to get one very nice puppy, and I've also had litters of 8 where 4 or 5 were show quality. BUT, no dog is perfect and the genetics of dog breeding are far from an exact science. It's like dipping your hand in a jar full of multi-colored marbles and hoping you draw out all the red ones or all the blue ones.

Breeders try to stack the odds in their favor - and hopefully they're doing it with an eye on more than just conformation (breed type, structure), but are also equally weighing temperament, ability and health. Some of them are pickier than others as to what constitutes 'show quality' and what doesn't.

If a breeder is well known for producing show ring winners, they may have a waiting list for those pups. They may even prefer to hang onto 'show quality' pups and 'grow them out' rather than place them in pet homes. Others, if they have a full waiting list of pet homes, will place possible 'show quality' pups in companion or performance homes because finding a good home is more important to them than racking up another championship. But they can't let all their best pups get altered, or they won't have a future generation to continue on with. So it's not that they're being snooty and looking down on pet homes, but that they're looking down the road and trying to preserve and improve their breed.



> Yep, ProfCrash, often there are pups that are not show prospects--but sometimes that can be hard to tell at an early age. Bigger dogs have larger litters, too so there may be more leeway there.


Yes, yes, definitely this.


----------



## Sandpiper

N. Gemini Sasson said:


> If a breeder is well known for producing show ring winners, they may have a waiting list for those pups. They may even prefer to hang onto 'show quality' pups and 'grow them out' rather than place them in pet homes. Others, if they have a full waiting list of pet homes, will place possible 'show quality' pups in companion or performance homes because finding a good home is more important to them than racking up another championship. But they can't let all their best pups get altered, or they won't have a future generation to continue on with. So it's not that they're being snooty and looking down on pet homes, but that they're looking down the road and trying to preserve and improve their breed.


Kathy said another consideration these days for the breeder is the economy. Fewer possible placement homes today, show or pet, because not as many have the asking price for the pups. So if a breeder finds what s/he believes would be a good home for the pup, may need to go with that as opposed to what the breeder would ideally prefer.

That is what's happening now with Kathy. She has her last pup on hold for possible show home which is what she would prefer. But if that doesn't happen, I will get the pup. He will be a pet / companion dog for me. I will provide a good, safe home for him and a happy life. We will be BFFs and have good times together.


----------



## caseyf6

I'm glad you have other options...buying a pup from a breeder who (sounds like he) is a jerk would be like adopting one from a shelter where you just didn't have a good feeling about it-- not worth it in the long run, sometimes.

Here is my question:  I understand you've made your decision and I'm delighted for you.  But maybe you (Sandpiper) and Amy can answer this for me.  Why get purebred?  I understand wanting to make sure it's not from a puppy mill, but I really don't understand specifically paying for an animal who isn't a rescue.  It's not just cost to me, it's emotional.  There are so many rescues who need that bff-human.


----------



## Amyshojai

caseyf6 said:


> Why get purebred? I understand wanting to make sure it's not from a puppy mill, but I really don't understand specifically paying for an animal who isn't a rescue. It's not just cost to me, it's emotional. There are so many rescues who need that bff-human.


I can't speak for Sandpiper, but for me--I adore German shepherds, love their look, the way they act, their train-ability, their versatility, the selfless devotion to one person/family . . . and yes, I could have gotten that from a rescue shepherd. But much of it would have been if-y.

I work with owners of damaged pets/relationships in my real job as a certified animal behavior consultant. I did not need that added angst with my own fur-kid. By working with a reputable breeder who has a 20+ year track record of producing sound dogs, and placing them with specific families/owners (SAR, service dogs, therapy, performance and more) AND who willingly supports me answering questions--and vice versa *s* -- I got the dog of my dreams.

He still was...and is...an incredible amount of work. But my first GSD boy (still my furry muse) developed HD, immune issues, and temperament (extreme shyness) problems. I needed a break. *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

YESSSSSSS! I got an e-mail from Kathy. She never heard from the other possible placement (buyer), so the pup IS mine.    Going there this coming weekend. Kathy wants to meet person before actually taking delivery of the pup. Go over everything this weekend. I can ask questions, questions, questions. I can meet pup's mom and dad. And leave deposit. Pup would be ready to go weekend of June 18/19 or whenever I want.



caseyf6 said:


> Here is my question: I understand you've made your decision and I'm delighted for you. But maybe you (Sandpiper) and Amy can answer this for me. Why get purebred? I understand wanting to make sure it's not from a puppy mill, but I really don't understand specifically paying for an animal who isn't a rescue. It's not just cost to me, it's emotional. There are so many rescues who need that bff-human.


Getting a shelter dog (rescuing) is a wonderful thing. So many many need homes. All dogs deserve a good, loving home. I had a Border Terrier 40 years ago, so I feel I "know" the breed and their personality more than other dogs in general. (Although all dogs, like people, are individuals.) The general personality of Border Terriers appeals to me very much. They're considered to be smart dogs. (Some breeds just aren't. Or they're stubborn.) Their coat / hair is both plus and minus. It does take some special grooming (stripping). Unlike the Beagle I grew up with which sheds big time, the Border sheds little to none. And there's something about their hair / fur, dirt does not cling to it.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yay! One paw-step forward...


----------



## Sandpiper

And here he is










I got permission from Kathy to copy photo from her site. She asks that you don't do that. She did say I will be getting package of photos with "him". All kinds of stuff and info, etc., etc., etc. This is what I was expecting. It feels so right, so good.

I'm 'bout sure as I can be that his name will be Burke. Or maybe Beckett (short Beck).


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## N. Gemini Sasson

Sandpiper said:


> And here he is


What a cutie! So happy for you, Sandpiper! Can't wait to hear all about him.


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## MichelleR

caseyf6 said:


> Here is my question: I understand you've made your decision and I'm delighted for you. But maybe you (Sandpiper) and Amy can answer this for me. Why get purebred? I understand wanting to make sure it's not from a puppy mill, but I really don't understand specifically paying for an animal who isn't a rescue. It's not just cost to me, it's emotional. There are so many rescues who need that bff-human.


Most of the dogs I've had as an adult have been from rescue and are/were purebreds. They're not mutually exclusive. The last figure I saw is about 25% of dogs in shelters are purebred, and my experience working at a shelter matches that. Just about every breed there is also has a network of rescuers. ::shrug::

I have no desire to get a non-rescue dog again, but I think it's important to tell people it's not either/or -- mixed breed dogs are great and deserve love and homes, but so does the purebred dog who comes into a shelter as a stray or a surrender -- or a cruelty case. When people decide they want a particular breed, I think it's important to remember that there are viable options other than a breeder.

There are breeds, like greyhounds, who are bred in large numbers in hopes that a small percentage are money earners -- too many of these dogs die simply because they don't run fast enough. Without rescue, those numbers would be much higher. My GH was a good racer who broke her leg, then they tried to breed her, but she wouldn't go into heat -- without rescue, she would probably have been put to sleep before she was three years old.

People go purebred for poor reasons -- thinking they're somehow inherently better than a mixed breed -- but there are also legit reasons, like the same breed as the dog you grew up with, and a better understanding of likely traits, or because of allergies, or because you're looking for a dog that you can teach agility or want to do therapy with a dog and are looking for a smaller dog who can go on beds who is known for doing well at obedience and...

Why not consider rescuing a purebred?


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## MamaProfCrash

Michelle: Agreed. I know plenty of folks who participate in breed specific rescues. If I know of someone who is looking for a particular breed of dog, I recommend they look for a nearby breed associated rescue first. We have two rescues at home, both are mutts. The breed was less important to us then getting a puppy in good health. I know some folks who only rescue adult dogs, which I think is great. Puppies are always popular but the 10 year old dog that has been abandoned should have an opportunity at finding a great home as well.


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## Sandpiper

Admittedly, I didn't do any serious checking for Border Terrier rescue.  Quick look or two.  The breed is not common.  Sure wasn't 40 years ago and still isn't very . . . unless you're in the British Isles.  I definitely want a BT.  Nothing wrong with a mixture.  But I know the breed so want a BT which means from a breeder.


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## MichelleR

ProfCrash said:


> Puppies are always popular but the 10 year old dog that has been abandoned should have an opportunity at finding a great home as well.


Yep, one of the shelties we rescued was just ... ancient. She came in as a stray and there was no way they were going to put her up for adoption. I could have worked with Sheltie Rescue and got her in there, but I figured "the heck with it." We called her grannie and she was just this spindly little, cataract-y, nearly toothless Methuseleh of a dog. She stuck around for another 2 years though. The other one I got specifically from the shelter I worked at was around 10 -- Paddington. Cindy, she was my second sheltie, was 6 and 1/2 when we got her. With out current sheltie we also sought out an older guy -- Ferguson was estimated at 10 and that was perhaps 3 years ago now.

Seniors are great. What I loved about Paddington is he had this inherent dignity. A senior statesman.


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## Stefanswit

Just don't get a snake.


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## caseyf6

Thank you for answering my question -- I hope neither of you felt I was bashing your decision.  

Especially if BT's are not common, I understand that a little more.  Your new pup is a CUTIE.  

And Amy, GSD are my favorites too.  When I was little my stepmom's dog basically adopted me and they've been in my heart ever since.  Sheba had been abused as a puppy but when I was around she was a much stronger, safer-feeling dog.


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## Sandpiper

Tam posted this photo waaay upthread. (I hope she doesn't mind if I post it again.) I just love it. This is Daisy (now deceased  ), Tam's brother's BT. Daisy looks like she's havin' fun. Good living.


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## Amyshojai

Love the life jacket, too--she be a-stylin' right?  

Casey, not a problem re: the question. Everyone makes choices, and I'm a huge proponent of rescue, too. PetFinder.com is da bomb. *s*


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## Anne Victory

Sandpiper said:


> Well, that soured. We "didn't fit [each other's] criteria". The breeder would not communicate. He said he doesn't check e-mail / doesn't e-mail. When I'd get him on the phone, he was too busy to talk. "I'll call you on . . . ." And then he didn't call. He did NOT communicate until I turned on my computer this morning and there was a lengthy e-mail from him. I didn't fit his criteria. He would not and will not in the future sell a puppy to me. OK.


Based upon? That just seems really weird to me.

ETA: Got caught up. I agree with Amy - sounds like doofus had a case of mistaken identity. Oh, well.

On the bright side - you're getting a puppy! Just three short days away - WOOT!


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## Sandpiper

Arkali said:


> On the bright side - you're getting a puppy! Just three short days away - WOOT!


I'll meet the breeder and see the pup this coming Saturday. Won't bring him home until the following weekend or weekend after that.

I keep trying to think of things to say to breeder to let her know how I feel about pup (dogs in general). She shows dogs. She's keeping a couple out of the litter and letting two go. I imagine that has something to do with conformation, markings, coloring, etc. I'll let her know that I don't want to know why she's letting mine go because he is perfect just as he is. Not lacking in any way.


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## MamaProfCrash

I would be prepared to talk to her about how you plan on handling potty training, crate training, where the dog will sleep, what you are planning on feeding the dog and why, how you plan on handeling possible problems like chewing, jumping, barking. You probably want to have a list of probable vets and animal hospitals that you are going to look and maybe the name of a kennel. She will want to know what the longest amount of time the puppy will be left alone. 

These are some of the answers that my Hubby and I used when we applied and were interviewed for our rescues. We also had to go through a home inspection where they looked at where the dog was going to sleep, where we would be exercising the dog, and if our home was prepared for a dog (ie not a cluttered, messy disaster with a ton of other animals)

Potty training (using the crate, regular trips out doors, potty pads in the house, not leaving the dog longer then 1 hour per age in month)

Crate training (gentle introduction to the crate, tossing in treats and toys and making it fun, leaving the pup for a few minutes and coming back before the pup starts to get anxious, slowly increasing the pups time alone in the crate)

Discipline (firm voice, avoid yelling, don't use the dogs name and "no" in the same breath, list of places to go for training, when are you planning puppy classes)

Chewing (keeping a chew toy on you so you can say "No" when caught chewing and the swap out with a chew toy, praise use of chew toys liberally, bitter apple or similar chew deterants, no rawhide until a year old)

Bring pictures of the crate and the room the pup will sleep in.

I think that you might want to look at different foods because I have difficulty believing that a breeder today is going to be happy with any of the mass produced dog foods. I understand where you are coming from but I guessing that anyone who breeds dogs and is very careful with placement is going to have the same bias about foods from Science Diet, Purina, ect... as some of the people who have posted about dog food. I could be wrong but it might not hurt to have a second or third food in mind if she asks and is not happy with your first choice.

Don't forget to think about treats, she could ask you how you feel about them.

Surprisingly we had the interviewers ask us about what type of leash we were going to use. All of them (four in total) were opposed to the retractable leashes because dogs have been run over when the owner has not been fast enough on the button. Also you might get questions about what type of collar or harness.


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## Amyshojai

Many breeders will have recommendations about food. Ours did--and that was part of the contract--we could feed what we wanted but IF problems happened down the road and we'd not fed the recommendation, the contract would be null. It wasn't a biggie--she recommended a food I liked anyway, and it was what Magic was used to.

I HATE retractable leashes--not so much for the small dogs but problems especially with big guys. Retractable leashes teach dogs to pull, and often owners let the pup/dog get so far away there's really not much control left. Agree agree agree!


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## Sandpiper

I've been buying and reading books (this is a book related site  ). Basically get puppy on a sleep, eating, potty, play schedule. I do have a general "feel" for how it will all go as dogs are not totally foreign to me, but know I have many questions to ask breeder. (Repeating myself -- that was the problem with previous breeder.)

My understanding is that when housetraining puppies (when still young in any case), it's not a good idea to both potty outside AND use pads inside. That's confusing for a puppy. "Where am I supposed to go -- outiside or inside??" Might work when the dog is older. *Amy?*

Having extreme temps here for few days -- mid to upper 90s for highs. Just said on the news to keep dogs inside except for potty trips out. Heat is harder on dogs than humans. They're more susceptible to heatstroke.


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## Ann Herrick

Sounds as if you are doing one of the best things, and that is not buying a dog (or any pet) on impulse. You're researching breeds and what they would be like as pets. I'm one of those who suggests the humane society, but if you do buy from a breeder, do a lot of research on the _breeder_ as well as the breed. Once you make a choice, spay or neuter the dog, please!

There was someone on PBS talking about training dogs by being very gentle with them (no choke chains, etc.) but of course now I can't remember his name or the name of his book.


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## Sandpiper

Ann Herrick said:


> Sounds as if you are doing one of the best things, and that is not buying a dog (or any pet) on impulse. You're researching breeds and what they would be like as pets. I'm one of those who suggests the humane society, but if you do buy from a breeder, do a lot of research on the _breeder_ as well as the breed. Once you make a choice, spay or neuter the dog, please!
> 
> There was someone on PBS talking about training dogs by being very gentle with them (no choke chains, etc.) but of course now I can't remember his name or the name of his book.


I was just thinking along those lines about myself. I can get all excited over something and then change my mind. Why did I get myself into this?? I've certainly had plenty of opportunity to back out of getting a puppy . . . but I haven't. I don't want to back out. I DO want a puppy / dog. I know it will be more "work" in the beginning. I'm expecting that. But I am looking forward to the next how many years with this little guy for a companion and roommate.

Training a dog today is much different than it was 40 - 50 years ago when I had my last. Basically teach with praise and gentleness, not punishment. Just ignore when dog does something bad. There is no reward, praise, love given for any kind of no-no.


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## MamaProfCrash

We don't ignore when the dogs do something bad. We tell them no and then praise them when they do what they are suppose to. Cooper has some lab in him and it in shows in how much he loves to jump on things and how excitable he is. We always tell him no and then praise when he sits after jumping. It is more about the timing then anything. You have to make the correction as the action is happening and praise as the action is happening.

The not yelling, whapping with rolled up newspaper, rubbing  dogs nose in things, and using choke chains seems to be more accepted these days. Although there are some breeds where I see people using choke collars but only for training.


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## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> The not yelling, whapping with rolled up newspaper, rubbing dogs nose in things, and using choke chains seems to be more accepted these days. Although there are some breeds where I see people using choke collars but only for training.


Those things are definitely not done today. True -- a strong "no" when appropriate. Then praise when dog stops and does what he should.


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## Leslie

I would also suggest that before you meet with the breeder, to investigate obedience classes and puppy obedience classes in your area that you might take. Monday, our rescue poodle, came to us fully trained (as folks who have been following the thread know). Even so, my husband thought a class was a good idea (after our one morning session with the dog obedience lady). The class will be starting next week. If you are starting from scratch with a puppy, I think a class would be very beneficial and will also convey a message to the breeder that you really want to do a good job with your new pup.

L


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## Sandpiper

Recommended Wiggles-n-Wags. I have been there to view a puppy social and ask questions.


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## Tatiana

Amyshojai said:


> Many breeders will have recommendations about food. Ours did--and that was part of the contract--we could feed what we wanted but IF problems happened down the road and we'd not fed the recommendation, the contract would be null. It wasn't a biggie--she recommended a food I liked anyway, and it was what Magic was used to.


Our breeder feeds PURINA...that junk isn't going to be fed in our house, no way. DH and DS have already decided on the food for our new Scottie, I thought it would takes weeks of discussions but they both agreed immediately. AMAZING!


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## soyfrank

Definitely, dogs are great writing partners.


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## MamaProfCrash

I hyave a feeling that there are people who still do that. When we filled out our application there was a question about what would we do when the puppy had an accident in the house. We went through the "If we saw the dog, we would push their butt down, say no, and carry the dog outside" explanation. The interviewer was impressed and said that she regularly had to tell people what to do and that rubbing the dogs nose in the accident was bad.

Cooper is up to 66% Taste of the Wild. We are finishing off the prescription stuff and than he will move to 100% Taste of the Wild. It only took three weeks. (grins)

Caya has been to puppy and intermediate classes. Cooper has been to puppy class. I will take him to intermediate during the winter. I know that he will already have most of those skills but he needs the additional socialization.


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## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> Recommended Wiggles-n-Wags. I have been there to view a puppy social and ask questions.


That certainly looks promising!

L


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I've been buying and reading books (this is a book related site  ). Basically get puppy on a sleep, eating, potty, play schedule. I do have a general "feel" for how it will all go as dogs are not totally foreign to me, but know I have many questions to ask breeder. (Repeating myself -- that was the problem with previous breeder.)
> 
> My understanding is that when housetraining puppies (when still young in any case), it's not a good idea to both potty outside AND use pads inside. That's confusing for a puppy. "Where am I supposed to go -- outiside or inside??" Might work when the dog is older. *Amy?*
> 
> Having extreme temps here for few days -- mid to upper 90s for highs. Just said on the news to keep dogs inside except for potty trips out. Heat is harder on dogs than humans. They're more susceptible to heatstroke.


Yep, you got it right. *s* And certainly when the pup does something "wrong" you can correct/interrupt the behavior. But I talk a lot about (well, so do many of my colleagues!) catching the dog in the act of doing something RIGHT and then praising. Even a "no" or correction in some instances can be rewarding ("I got mom to chase me! I got mom's attention! I'll chew the sofa again!") So you don't want the pup to cause damage or get injured but it should be a balanced approach.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

One thing we tried to teach our husky was to sit whenever we got to a cross walk.  That way, we wouldn't (supposedly) have any lunging and pulling.  Chewie was, well, resistant to that type of training.  He knew whenever we went out, we were going to the park, where the squirrels lived.  And those are fun to chase.


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## Jane917

Is this the weekend that new puppy is coming home?


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## Amyshojai

Can't wait for pictures!


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## Sandpiper

No, not this weekend.  But I am going to breeder Kathy's home to see him tomorrow (80 miles).  Kathy will not place a puppy without first meeting possible puppy mama.  That's fine with me.  I have plenty of questions.  Interested in what he's being fed and on what schedule.  I still have a number of things to get to be ready for him.  She will explain and show me how to groom him / strip.     Even though 40 years ago I must have had my previous Border Terrier for at least a few years, I don't remember much about her care.

Pup was eight weeks old yesterday (birth date April 14).  If Kathy does approve of me for puppy mama, I'll bring him home either next weekend or the following.


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## traceya

So glad you decided to get a puppy - I currently have two, both Tibetan Spaniels and they are a sheer delight and source of endless entertainment.  I don't think I'd be a very happy camper without a dog but I also love cats so I've learned how to get those two natural enemies to become friends.

Good luck with the puppy and keep us updated with photos etc.


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## Amyshojai

You don't see these very often, great dogs!


tibetan spaniel by amyshojai, on Flickr


tibettan terrier by amyshojai, on Flickr


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## MamaProfCrash

I hope you like getting up every two hours for potty breaks....


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## Sandpiper

Won't be getting up every two hours during the night.  He's got to learn to "hold it".  He can.  Not going to teach him that he can whine and then go out whenever he wants during the night.

But I will get myself on a better sleep schedule than I have for the past few years.  I prefer mornings, but I have gotten myself into the habit of staying up late -- sometimes EXTREMELY late.  (Go to bed when the birds start singing in the morning!)  That will STOP.  I want to hit the bed app. 11:00 p.m. and get up app. 7:00 a.m.  All this puppy stuff won't go on forever.


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## MamaProfCrash

Physically puppies can not hold it that long. We were told 1 hour per month old and that until they hit 8 months old it was unrealistic to expect that they would make it through the night. My friends who foster younger puppies love it but hate it because they are getting up every 2-3 hours to take the dogs out otherwise the pups would make a mess in their crate.


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## Sandpiper

From other breeders and books, pups don't get fed or water after 6:00 - 7:00 in the evening, so there should not be much, if any, real need to go.  I'll see what breeder today has to say about it all.


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash is right. Two months old, they can 'hold it' 2 hours, three months 3 hours and so on. Sure you can wait longer and let them "live with the mess" but that could backfire and teach them it's okay to go potty and be nasty. 

They're babies. It doesn't last very long. *shrug* By four months, you're only getting up once in the night for a potty break.


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## MamaProfCrash

Potty training will take a lot longer and be a great deal more frustrating if your pup thinks it is ok to go inside.

Cooper was harder to train then Caya because his foster home had 13 puppies at one time and did not take the dogs out regularly. The pups were allowed to pee and poop in their pen. We had to give him a long bath as soon as he got home to get the feces out of his fur. And he had parasites. He thought it was ok to pee and poop where he wanted to.  He would go out with Caya and take care of business but he would not alert us that he needed to go out and take care of business. It took close to a month before he started to really get that he was suppose to go outside and only outside.

We knew where he came from and why he had the habits he did but it was still frustrating.


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## Ann Herrick

Sandpiper said:


> No, not this weekend. But I am going to breeder Kathy's home to see him tomorrow (80 miles). Kathy will not place a puppy without first meeting possible puppy mama. That's fine with me. I have plenty of questions. Interested in what he's being fed and on what schedule. I still have a number of things to get to be ready for him. She will explain and show me how to groom him / strip.   Even though 40 years ago I must have had my previous Border Terrier for at least a few years, I don't remember much about her care.
> 
> Pup was eight weeks old yesterday (birth date April 14). If Kathy does approve of me for puppy mama, I'll bring him home either next weekend or the following.


You must be so excited!


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## Pawz4me

Young puppies cannot "hold it" for very long, regardless of how recently they've had access to food and water.  Expecting a young puppy to "hold it" makes as much sense as expecting a two or three-month old human baby to "hold it".

Also, with some small breed puppies hypoglycemia can be a very real and dangerous problem, and therefore it's not a good idea to make them go for long periods of time w/o access to food.

If getting up a few times during the night for two/three months is more than you're willing to do, or if you're tempted to withhold food simply to ensure a good night's sleep, then I'd strongly advise against getting a puppy.


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## Sandpiper

Oh geez.  It's real.  I go back next Saturday and bring him home!!!!!!  Now I know what is meant by blue color when speaking of a Border Terrier.  Blue is black with white hair sparsely mixed in.


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## angelmum3

Sandpiper said:


> Oh geez. It's real. I go back next Saturday and bring him home!!!!!! Now I know what is meant by blue color when speaking of a Border Terrier. Blue is black with white hair sparsely mixed in.


How exciting!! I'm so happy for you!!

Cant wait to read updates and see pictures!! YAY for you puppy mama!!

Just like raising a child, you will get many many opinions, but in the end you get to decide! Every child is different, every puppy/dog is different! I was really surprised when we got our puppy (from the pound) that during the day I took him out every hour, I didnt paper train first, just trained me to take him out! He was also crate trained - and we had only a few accidents - and like your plans for night, that worked for us - but when you get him home, you may have to make adjustments, and I know you will!!

Congratulations!!


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## HappyGuy

If you have to ask the question then probably not..


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## Amyshojai

Yay! Puppy-licious in your future. *s* When we got Magic, he'd already learned his "potty" command ("take-a-break") which helped a bunch to get the idea across he needed to potty BEFORE playtime. I love my breeder. She'd also already crate trained.


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## Sandpiper

angelmum3 said:


> How exciting!! I'm so happy for you!!
> 
> Cant wait to read updates and see pictures!! YAY for you puppy mama!!
> 
> Just like raising a child, you will get many many opinions, but in the end you get to decide! Every child is different, every puppy/dog is different! I was really surprised when we got our puppy (from the pound) that during the day I took him out every hour, I didnt paper train first, just trained me to take him out! He was also crate trained - and we had only a few accidents - and like your plans for night, that worked for us - but when you get him home, you may have to make adjustments, and I know you will!!
> 
> Congratulations!!


Thank you, *Angelmum3*. Your positive encouragement makes me feel better. Same as needed for puppy Burke.



HappyGuy said:


> If you have to ask the question then probably not..


No longer asking the question. I AM getting a puppy.

This morning Kathy e-mailed me Burke's AKC registered name. Litter was born on April 14, day before tax day. All names are tax related! Burke's AKC name is Brentwood's Tax Day Blues.

FWIW (which isn't anything), years ago I worked for the wife of a future Commissioner of the IRS. I had direct connection to the IRS!

*Question:* Kathy said to get a wire crate for Burke. Plastic, which I have, is good for transport but not so much general use at home. OK, got one this morning. After the fact, I wanted to check out reviews / comments on-line. I can find next to nothing about the brand I got, Z-Crate. Does anyone know anything about the brand?


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## Tonya

Yes, get a dog!! I LOVE THEM TOO!! I have one in all my novels b/c I just love them sooooooo much!!


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## Sandpiper

Yesterday I got a book: "I Just Got a Dog. What Do I Do?" That is the way I feel (at times). I did go shopping at Petco today.    

*Questions / Looking for pinions?*

So I have plastic crate. I thought that was it. Breeder Kathy says No. Plastic is good for transport, but need wire crate at home. Opinons? I thought, in any case, even when dog is full grown, that a crate is pretty much supposed to be just for sleeping -- not much more room than for that. Wire crates Kathy has for her full grown Borders are more like "room" size. Plenty of room. Which?

And then I keep going back and forth about an indoor pen for use primarily when housebreaking. I'm in a one bedroom condo. So when I'm here in my condo, I can never go far. Do I need the pen for the puppy to play in and be in when I am BRIEFLY not with him? Or do I not have a pen and just play with him outside the crate. And also totally supervise his exploring of my condo. So if I cannot be with him, even somewhat briefly, he is in his closed crate. I don't know what to do. Do I need pen?


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## Coral Moore

With a one bedroom condo you can probably just get a baby gate or something similar so you can close him off in the kitchen when you need to. This worked out nice for us because it was the only non-carpeted floor in the place. Our dog would go in the crate when we weren't home and at night, but if we needed her out of our hair for whatever reason she went in the kitchen with the gate. You can use a crate for that too if you want, but we liked to leave her in the kitchen because that's where her food was.


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## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> So I have plastic crate. I thought that was it. Breeder Kathy says No. Plastic is good for transport, but need wire crate at home. Opinons? I thought, in any case, even when dog is full grown, that a crate is pretty much supposed to be just for sleeping -- not much more room than for that. Wire crates Kathy has for her full grown Borders are more like "room" size. Plenty of room. Which?


Your breeder is wrong, there is absolutely no reason you "need" to buy a wire crate if you already have a suitable sized plastic crate. Crate types are simply a personal preference (both for the owner and the dog) and they each have pros and cons.

The idea that a crate needs to be just big enough for sleeping is for puppies who aren't yet potty trained. If they have enough extra room in a crate, they may use a corner for a potty area. Once a puppy is reliably trained, then it's fine to give him a crate with plenty of extra room.



> And then I keep going back and forth about an indoor pen for use primarily when housebreaking. I'm in a one bedroom condo. So when I'm here in my condo, I can never go far. Do I need the pen for the puppy to play in and be in when I am BRIEFLY not with him? Or do I not have a pen and just play with him outside the crate. And also totally supervise his exploring of my condo. So if I cannot be with him, even somewhat briefly, he is in his closed crate. I don't know what to do. Do I need pen?


No, I don't think you need an ex-pen any more than you need a wire crate. It's yet another personal preference thing. I've never used an ex-pen with any of my dogs, but some people love them. In your case the major benefit would be giving the pup just a bit more room to move around than a crate when you can't supervise him. As Coral said, you can accomplish the same thing with a baby gate. Just keep in mind that you'll have to thoroughly puppy-proof any room you gate him in, and woodwork (baseboards, door and window trim, cabinets, etc.) may be in jeopardy.


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## Jane917

My dogs have always had the plastic crates. If we traveled a lot with them, the wire crates would be nice because they are collapsible. However, the plastic crates have always fitted in the back of our Subaru. 

When I had puppies I too a rope and attached a latch to each end. One end went on the dog's collar, the other end went through the belt loop on my jeans. The puppy could not get more than a couple of feet from me, and was trained to stick close as I moved around the house. Kona still jumps up and follows me whenever I move around. 

I have used baby gates to keep puppies in the kitchen or bathroom when they need to be confined (and to save carpet). If I were doing it again, I think I would just crate the puppy when needed.


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## Sandpiper

*Pawz and Jane*, that's the way I'm going to go. Return the pen. The wire crate is still in the box in the trunk of my car. I'll leave it there. See how it goes with just plastic crate. (Just won't tell breeder Kathy.  ) Should be fine. I'm a homebody. I will be with him a lot to start with. We can explore my condo together. As Jane suggested, I can tether him to me. We'll be fine. **fingers crossed**

Decor is important, you know.  I found a WHITE wire crate on-line. That would look much better in my condo than black or silver. Only problem with the white one is it does not have an interior divider panel for puppy / housebreaking. So when he's grown up, then I may just get him a "white house".


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## Amyshojai

Oh that book--"I Just got a puppy..." Is that Mordecai Siegal's book? Ya know, he's the first to make a dog book to a best seller's list? Morty passed away this past year... *sigh* That book was pub'd in 1992 (I think an update in 2002) but still has good general info.

What others have said. Crate is a preference. Hooking the leash to your belt can work, and baby gates that shut off areas of the house also work well. Puppy proofing to protect the baby from eating the wrong dangerous thing or doing damage to your stuff is vital, of course.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Oh that book--"I Just got a puppy..." Is that Mordecai Siegal's book? Ya know, he's the first to make a dog book to a best seller's list? Morty passed away this past year... *sigh* That book was pub'd in 1992 (I think an update in 2002) but still has good general info.


Yes, that is the book. Title is so apropos. It is good. Good info / suggestions. Though one thing I noticed is that he does repeat himself in the book. I like the shake can. Noise to startle pup, but not scare him. I'll make some kind of shake thing.


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## fastdogs

plastic crates are just fine. The bonus about them, is you can take the door off completely once the dog is potty trained and they make a nice bed.  I use wire in the car for air circulation, but that's just my preference.
The thing with potty training is to make sure that they never get a chance to go in the house. Each time they do have an accident in the house, it reinforces to them that carpet or hardwood is the place to go. So you want to form the habit of grass, gravel, or dirt under thier feet.  If you can dedicate several days to taking that pup outside every time they wake up, after they eat, when they stop playing, before they go to sleep, you get the drift- every 30 minutes it seems like sometimes. But if you can do that, most dogs housebreak really quickly.
But even housebroken, a pup will not be reliable to be loose in the house for a while. Like a baby, you don't leave them with the run of the house when you aren't there. When you take a shower, are cooking or talking on the phone, any time your attention isn't on the pup, they need to be in their crate or in their playpen outside. An x-pen is great for setting up a limted area outside (inside your main fenced area), more than in the house. In the house, it might give the pup enough room to have a bathroom area in part of it, and then you've got that habit to break, and it really sets you back in your housebreaking.
Keep us posted with your puppy stories!
vickie


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## Sandpiper

I no longer work.  I am kinda a homebody.  So no problem being with him pretty much constantly for a while.  Make those trips down the hall, down a flight of stairs, and out the door.

After he is housebroken (therefore safe to run on condo carpet without making a mess), I can roll a ball down the long hallway outside my door and he can chaaaaaase it!!  Good indoor exercise when the weather is not so agreeable.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

as far as a baby gate to keep him in an area, I had a friend who installed a baby gate in her hallway that cut off the back 1/2 of her house.  She did this for 2 main reasons:  to keep her dogs out of the way when some one visited who didn't like dogs and to keep the main part of her house mess free when she left (her dogs were house broken, but one of them didn't like to be left alone).  She occasionally had to use the gate to seperate them (she had a mother and daughter and that happens sometimes  ).  That might be something to think about.  I don't know how many visitors you have, but how many like dogs?


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## Sandpiper

Not many visitors.  Gate idea just doesn't work for me.  Kitchen is the only room I could possibly gate / block off.  (I don't have many rooms.)  The idea of a gated off room just doesn't do it for me.  I guess that's why I kept thinking of the pen. (I learned they're called ex-pens.)  But now not doing that either.


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## MamaProfCrash

Gates work if you make them work. Caya and Cooper can both jump the gate we use. Caya learned not to after we saw her do it and gave her a time out a few times. Cooper has never tried to jump the gate, silly dog can jump the hedges in the back yard but has never tried to jump the gate. Cooper has dragged the gate open and has tried to move the weights we put on the gate to stop him from doing that. He managed to move one of the 10 pound weights one day. 

We had an ex pen for Cooper and ended up using it for time outs more then anything. He went in there when he was misbehaving but would stay only for a minute or two after he stopped whining. Caya went in once or twice herself. I wish we had had it for Caya when she was younger because it is a better time out alternative then the crate. We did not have to use it all that frequently.

The ex pen will come in handy when we have a baby. It will give us a bit more piece of mind when the baby is learning to crawl. It would be a good a place to temporarily put the dogs where they are safe from crawling baby. They are both good with kids, this has been demonstrated many times, but it is always nice to have a back up plan.


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## Sandpiper

*One more question* (for now  ):

I have app. 2 - 2.5 hour drive home from breeder in my little Civic 2-door. Plastic crate doesn't fit in front seat. Breeder says pup in crate in back seat. So that's the way we will at least have to start out. I don't feel so good about it because I can't see him at all back there. I don't know what's going on.

I've got a nice plastic tote (live near a Container Store) that I think is good size for the pup. Fits on front seat next to me. With the handles of the tote up, I can wind seatbelt around the handles and then fasten seatbelt. It holds the tote VERY securely in place. The seatbelt stretches over the tote 2 - 3 times. I would think pup would also like to be able to see me? What do you think about riding in the car in that?


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## Amyshojai

Uhmn....I'm with the breeder. BACK SEAT is safest. If by chance you had an accident...even a fender bender...the airbag going off would crush and kill the pup in the front seat carrier. 

I'd suggest you get some Comfort Zone with DAP (dog appeasing pheromone) spray for inside the crate to help calm the baby. A cloth/towel/something scented with Mom (rubbed between her breasts) will do the same thing, though--that transfers the pheromone to the cloth which signals the pup "nothing to fear."


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## Jane917

I ditto the information about the back seat.


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## Coral Moore

Sandpiper said:


> Not many visitors. Gate idea just doesn't work for me. Kitchen is the only room I could possibly gate / block off. (I don't have many rooms.) The idea of a gated off room just doesn't do it for me. I guess that's why I kept thinking of the pen. (I learned they're called ex-pens.) But now not doing that either.


Well the nice thing about the gate is it's only gated off when you need it to be. We probably only put the gate up once a month or less and the rest of the time it was in a closet. We used it when people came over, we had to paint, etc.


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## MamaProfCrash

Pups in back seat. We have doggie seatbelts. 

We use the gate every day. It keeps the pups in the long hallway and off of the furniture, counters, and other potential trouble spots. We put their dog beds out, they have toys, they have a window, and they have plenty of room to walk around and run if they want (it is the main hallway in the house.) The fact that they don't just jump over it and go chill on the couches still amazes me.


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## Amyshojai

We've got two pet gates (tall for the GSD) that have little kitty doors in the bottom so Seren can come and go. These block off the kitchen, and actually have swing-doors for people entrance/exit.

But I do understand some homes just aren't set up correctly to make these work. A wire kennel or Xpen certainly could work instead. You just work with what you've got.


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## Sandpiper

Breeder did give me a tip -- dirty diaper bags are cheaper than dog poo bags.


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## Amyshojai

Oohhh, great tip (making a note). I used to use the plastic containers/sleeves from the daily newspapers. Doesn't work for big dogs, though.


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## Casse

We've had our new pup - toy poodle - for a few weeks now and the ex-pens (we have both indoor and outdoor) along with a walk through gate works very well for our setup.


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## KindleMom

Sandpiper said:


> Breeder did give me a tip -- dirty diaper bags are cheaper than dog poo bags.


Awesome tip. Thanks for sharing!


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## candggmom

Sandpiper, what about asking a friend to go with you to pick up your pup?  That way they could drive home while you sit in the back with the pup.  Pup will be able to see you while being safe and you won't be a distracted driver always looking in the back to see him!  I know how I was every time I picked up a new pup! LOL!

Kathy in NC


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## angelmum3

*Sandpiper* My mother-in-law has 2 crates for her English bulldog (I think that's the breed she has - its a medium sized dog) one for the living room, and one for their bedroom... Her dog feels safer in the crate -so when grandkids come over and try and play too hard with her, she goes in her crate - and in the beginning when my mil would go to the mailbox, she'd put Ellie in the crate -

I think you'll do such a great job!! There is a lot to learn or know, but the best part you already have - love!! You did the research and you are wanting the best for you and your puppy -

and do not worry, the pup in the backseat will be just fine! I'm sure your breeder will have suggestions, as the breeder has sent off many a puppy -

also, for us, I bought some of the remnant polar fleece pieces from JoAnn Fabrics to fold in the size of the crate - and our puppy chewed that - so for awhile I had to go with nothing in the bottom of the crate!! but it was a cheap alternative - and its easier to clean (or cheap enough to toss away!)

I also even tho my dog is over 1 year old still keep a visual on him - I sometimes let him in the kitchen if I can hear him getting water - but not for long!! That's when I whistle train him (I keep treats on me - sometimes its just part of his kibble so I dont over treat, or give him too much) anyway - I like to work on the "come" command! I use a special whistle that he knows he gets a treat for (the whoop-er-will)

anyway, there's lots of information, so you go with what feels right for you and your situation!!

Congratulations - cant wait to see pictures!


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## Sandpiper

angelmum3 said:


> also, for us, I bought some of the remnant polar fleece pieces from JoAnn Fabrics to fold in the size of the crate - and our puppy chewed that - so for awhile I had to go with nothing in the bottom of the crate!! but it was a cheap alternative - and its easier to clean (or cheap enough to toss away!)


Good idea about the polar (or maybe plush) fleece remnants. I live near a JoAnn Fabrics. I'll check tomorrow. Today I got a small cooler chest and thingies you freeze (cheaper than a thermos) so I have cool water with us for ride home. Part way it's just two lane road in the country. Good ol' days! (Not bad driving cuz there's next to no traffic. Actually it is the road we took to my grandparents back in the '50s.)


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## Sandpiper

This morning I'm getting hit by a plain ol' case of nerves about it all.  I just wish it was tomorrow evening and we were settled in for the first night.

I didn't sleep a whole lot last night.  I just hope I get a good night's sleep tonight.  Sleep can cure a case of nerves.


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## Amyshojai

Puppy nerves...that's a very GOOD sign, I think.   But you'll do fine. The baby may be more nervous than you.


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## angelmum3

exhaustion, excitement - it is overwhelming, you've been thinking, dreaming, planning all of this for a long time - and now its almost here - you have to bee overwhelmed...

hope you find something to take your mind off of it for awhile - 

and its perfectly normal after you've been together for awhile, and the dog gets ornery (as they will sometimes do) to say 
"bad dog"  (DD made cupcakes last night, this morning when I let the dog out of the crate, he made a beeline for the kitchen - going up the stairs, around the living room and up on the dining room table!  I didnt have a clue for about 5 seconds!  Way too late!!  then he got up in the sink and grabbed the sponge - the sponge - he only chewed it, not ingesting it - so "bad dog" even though I know he hasnt a clue why I keep saying it!!)


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## Ilyria Moon

I wish I had a doggy! Unfortunately, I live in a rented apartment with cream carpets, which are hell to keep clean as it is, with cats. As soon as my situation permits, I am getting a Weimaraner. I have always wanted one since I was a young girl. I met a lovely one the other week in the park with a dog walker. It made me want one even more! I secretly want two, but I'll have my hands full if I get them both at the same time. 












Sandpiper said:


> This morning I'm getting hit by a plain ol' case of nerves about it all. I just wish it was tomorrow evening and we were settled in for the first night.
> 
> I didn't sleep a whole lot last night. I just hope I get a good night's sleep tonight. Sleep can cure a case of nerves.


Aw, you must post lots of pics! I'm excited for you.


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## Jane917

angelmum3 said:


> and its perfectly normal after you've been together for awhile, and the dog gets ornery (as they will sometimes do) to say
> "bad dog" (DD made cupcakes last night, this morning when I let the dog out of the crate, he made a beeline for the kitchen - going up the stairs, around the living room and up on the dining room table! I didnt have a clue for about 5 seconds! Way too late!! then he got up in the sink and grabbed the sponge - the sponge - he only chewed it, not ingesting it - so "bad dog" even though I know he hasnt a clue why I keep saying it!!)


I am glad to hear that Jack is not the only "bad dog" that wrecks havoc on the dining room table.....only when he knows we are out of the house!


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## MamaProfCrash

Enjoy the pup!



ilyria_moon said:


> I wish I had a doggy! Unfortunately, I live in a rented apartment with cream carpets, which are hell to keep clean as it is, with cats. As soon as my situation permits, I am getting a Weimaraner. I have always wanted one since I was a young girl. I met a lovely one the other week in the park with a dog walker. It made me want one even more! I secretly want two, but I'll have my hands full if I get them both at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aw, you must post lots of pics! I'm excited for you.


We adopted Caya 6 months before we adopted Cooper. We wanted the two dogs but thought that it would be best to adopt one at a time. It worked nicely for us.


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## Amyshojai

William Wegman and his Weimaraners rock!

Often adopting littermates at the same time can result in the pups bonding more closely with each other than with the people--so adopting from different litters or slightly different ages can work well. One pup is a handful, more than one can be quite daunting..but loads of fun! Hope you get the dog(s) of your dreams.


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## balaspa

I love dogs. I hope you get one and are truly happy.  My girlfriend just got a new dog, Gracie, after her dog Chloe died at the ripe old age of 16 earlier this year.  Gracie has been just the most wonderful addition to the little family.


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## cc84

Aww i hope everything goes well with your new dog! Can't wait to see how cute he is. My little fella Noah is 23 weeks now, he's getting his big teeth, i'm quite proud


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## Ilyria Moon

ProfCrash said:


> Enjoy the pup!
> 
> We adopted Caya 6 months before we adopted Cooper. We wanted the two dogs but thought that it would be best to adopt one at a time. It worked nicely for us.


Yes, that's definitely better; I need them to know I'm the Queen of the Pack, especially Weimaraners, hehe.



Amyshojai said:


> William Wegman and his Weimaraners rock!
> 
> Often adopting littermates at the same time can result in the pups bonding more closely with each other than with the people--so adopting from different litters or slightly different ages can work well. One pup is a handful, more than one can be quite daunting..but loads of fun! Hope you get the dog(s) of your dreams.


Thanks, me too! I reckon once I get the first one, I'll leave it a year before getting the second, if at all. My first introduction to Weims was Kate Bush's Hounds of Love album (they're hers). William Wegman, lol! I've seen a few of his photos, but just went to look at more. Cracks me up


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## Sandpiper

angelmum3 said:


> and its perfectly normal after you've been together for awhile, and the dog gets ornery (as they will sometimes do) to say "bad dog" (DD made cupcakes last night, this morning when I let the dog out of the crate, he made a beeline for the kitchen - going up the stairs, around the living room and up on the dining room table! I didnt have a clue for about 5 seconds! Way too late!! then he got up in the sink and grabbed the sponge - the sponge - he only chewed it, not ingesting it - so "bad dog" even though I know he hasnt a clue why I keep saying it!!)


I remember bro Beagle (below) once chewing up my father's new hat and chewing up my grade school art homework. Not such good days for him.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Often adopting littermates at the same time can result in the pups bonding more closely with each other than with the people--so adopting from different litters or slightly different ages can work well.


I heard exactly that at the Puppy Social yesterday. Someone was there with litter mates. Trainer said they would be hard to train together because they would pay more attention to each other than to their person.

If I was looking for a big dog, I'd be interested in Rhodesian Ridgebacks. Met one years ago that impressed me. Then again couple weeks ago. And then just Wednesday when I was in the Happy Dog Barkery, couple girls came in with one each. Two big dogs!! I like the breed. Big but friendly.


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## Ilyria Moon

Aw, Rhodesian Ridgebacks are lovely. My neighbour had two when I was growing up; used to see her walking them every morning on my way to school. Eventually, she just walked one. And then there were none.


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## Sandpiper

ilyria_moon said:


> Aw, Rhodesian Ridgebacks are lovely. My neighbour had two when I was growing up; used to see her walking them every morning on my way to school. Eventually, she just walked one. And then there were none.


Yes.


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## Leslie

Good luck and best wishes for your adventure tomorrow. I am thinking back to April 9th when Monday came to live with us...it's been an experience getting to know her but we love having her in our home and as part of our family. I am sure your new pup will be the same.

Keep us posted!

L


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## Sandpiper

A not very good photo from last Saturday.










I've learned that the fine soft hair you can see is his puppy halo. Do all breeds have it or just Borders and the like? Breeder Kathy said she stripped some of it off -- not completely.

Actually I don't think it's so much having pup here (finally home) that's making me anxious. It's the drive. I don't drive much. It's almost 90 miles. (I know . . . 90 miles. That's all??!!) The drive plus new little pup in the back seat on the home trip. How'd I get to be like that?? Wish it was going to be sunny and mid 70s tomorrow. Not exactly. Telling myself R E L A X.

Something I really can't stand to think of . . . I know it's the way of life for most pups -- getting separated from mom and siblings. Pup is carried away and that's it. I truly do not like to think about that. But I'm guessing Burke and I will go back to visit once or twice per year -- maybe. So it's not forever. But it hurts to think about it.

I did ask a few people if they'd like a ride in the country tomorrow. Nobody can. My bestest friend doesn't live close. She's in the opposite direction from here to pup.

Wish me good sleep tonight. That's what I need most.


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## tessa

Just think this time tomorrow night you'll be home with your new puppy.  

tessa


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## crebel

Thinking of your and your exciting day today!  Best wishes, I can't wait to see pictures.


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## MamaProfCrash

Tonight might be rough for Burke. On Caya and Coopers first night I sat next to their crate for about 30 minutes and pet them through. I talked quietly to them and waited until they had curled up quietly before I got into bed. Then I talked to them from the bed until they fell asleep. It took them both 3 or 4 days before they started to really adjust at night.


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## Jane917

You have a lot of people thinking of you today! Have a safe trip, and enjoy that new puppy. I agree that the first couple of nights could be rough. The two of you will soon work out a routine.


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## Amyshojai

Thinking of you and little Burke today. Enjoy!


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## Leslie

Monday--who is 18 months old so not exactly a puppy--still has some of her puppy hair, according to the groomer. I guess it takes awhile for it to completely grow out. I am sure it varies from breed to breed but it would seem that border terriers aren't the only ones with puppy hair.

Anxiously waiting for an update!

L


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## MamaProfCrash

Cooper shed his puppy hair at about 6 months. At least, we are assuming that the mass shedding for 2 months was his puppy hair.


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## cc84

Loving that photo ♥

Can't wait to see more, good luck


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## Jane917

Where is that puppy? I am so anxious to hear an update of his first day.


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## ellesu

Hoping the first night is going well (enough). 

I have a question for those of you with dogs. My hubby and I have been having an argument a discussion - when we're walking and pass someone who's walking their dog, hubby will go up to the dog and try and pet it. I tell him I'm not sure that's the best thing to do. To me it's like seeing a baby being strolled and thinking you can bend down and touch it. I think he should ask if the dog likes to be petted or if the owner minds - or, better yet, just smile and let it be. Who's right. (You know I'll never tell him if you all agree with him.)


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## Sandpiper

We made it home!  Crying first half trip -- hour, hour plus.  Then he quieted down.  Just a little crying here and there.  Sometimes he was so quiet I was asking, "Are you OK?"  Couple of water and pee stops.  

Once we got into my condo, he did a little investigating.  Looks like I'll have to get the remotes off the floor.  Supper in . . . supper out.  (My first time picking up.)  Maybe he's so little that I don't necessarily know when he's squatting?  Haven't noticed any peeing.  He has been drinking.  

He seems to enjoy nibbling on grass and leaves?  I know dogs eat grass when their stomach is upset.  I wonder . . . breeder has kept the four pups in the pen with newspaper on the bottom.  I don't know if Burke is too familiar with grass?

He has been sleeping in his closed crate here.  Chased his tail.  Chewed on rubber key ring.  And startled himself when he saw his reflection in the oven window.  

I'm guessing both of us will sleep well tonight.


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## Jud

That depends on the dog.  Some dogs will come toward you to smell you and be petted.  Others avoid touches by strangers. 

I have a doxie and I tell everyone who comes to the house not to pet her.  Even if we're in public, if I notice someone that seems about to pet her, I tell them not to. She's not user friendly.  We were in Hurricane Rita and we had to stay at a church shelter for 2 weeks.  My little girl is an inside dog and they wouldn't let her in. She had to stay in her kennel.  I took her out most of the day but I had to watch the kids there cause they would tease her, poking and trying to pull on her.  I think her nerves got rattled.  Now she doesn't want anyone but family members to touch her.  

So it depends.  You can tell if a dog wants to be touched.  Their tails are usually wagging and their ears are are relaxed.  They will be looking at you with what seems to be a happy face.  I would definitely recommend he be careful. Dogs don't live by our rules.


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## Sandpiper

When I'm out walking and see someone with a dog, 99% of the time I will start talking with person about the dog and probably pet / touch it.  You can tell if it's OK with the dog.  I can't resist.


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## Anita

ellesu said:


> when we're walking and pass someone who's walking their dog, hubby will go up to the dog and try and pet it. I tell him I'm not sure that's the best thing to do.


As the owner of a 'shy dog' I can tell you without hesitation -- YOU are right. If you don't know the dog, ask the owner if it is okay to pet the dog. I also advocate asking the best way to approach the dog. In terms of dogs with happy faces and wagging tails -- you will get that from my dog too, as long as you don't reach out to touch him. His favorite people are the ones that ignore him while he sniffs their hands and legs, etc.. He needs to make the first overtures in order to be comfortable.

When Winston was younger I had to guard against those people who thought they knew how to approach a dog and would reach for him without his invitation. He never growled or snapped, but he was frightened so I stood between him and strangers until over time he became less wary. Now that he is 10 years old he has learned to put up with rude people - but I still manage who touches him and how he is approached. When he was younger I didn't want him to ever learn that if he growled at people they would move away from him and give him control - it was a lesson he would never forget and I couldn't take a chance that growling to keep people away would become a habit for him.

Please, always ask the owner/handler if it's okay to pet. Your desire to pet the dog is never more important than making sure the dog wants to be touched at that particular moment.

All that being said, some people will look at you like you're crazy for asking....but asking is still the nicest thing to do 

Sandpiper -- Burke looks like a complete Cutie! You will too will get to know each other and become good buddies --- I can't wait to see pictures of him as he grows up!


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## angelmum3

Yay!  So glad you made it there and back Sandpiper!!

Now the adventure truly begins!!  Every day will be new, and different, there are no right or wrong answers - you'll each be trying to figure it all  out - and then before you know it - a year will have passed!

My dog eats grass ALL the time - I've just decided he's part goat - it is funny how he chomps down, I dont think it has a thing to do with his tummy - It may have to do with smelling the Timothy Hay we give the guinea pigs tho!!  

Congratulations Sandpiper!!

I have a BIG grin on my face just thinking about you and your new puppy!!


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## Ilyria Moon

Beautiful! I think all baby animals have that fuzzy hair; my cats did.


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## Pawz4me

Ellesu -- The proper thing is to always ask permission before petting a dog.  Many in the dog world consider it very rude for a stranger to touch their dog w/o asking.  Do not think you can make the judgment by the way the dog acts, some shy/scared dogs hide their fear well.  Dog owners will love you for asking permission, and especially for teaching kids to do it.  If you don't ask, some owners will grin and bear it and then condemn you mercilessly on message boards (yes, I've read the complaints over and over and over again).

Sandpiper -- Nibbling on grass is common in dogs, and doesn't necessarily mean an upset tummy.  My dogs love fresh spring grass, they'll graze like cows.  You'll learn to tell the difference -- Eating grass due to an upset tummy is generally fairly frantic and determined, nibbling because the dog likes it is much more leisurely.

Edited to add:  Never let a dog nibble on grass unless you know with absolute certainty that it hasn't been treated with any type of pesticides recently.


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## drenee

I am very late to this thread but I have read through it and I'm so excited for you.  I hope you two are having a good time getting acquainted.  Can't wait to see more pics.
deb


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## cc84

Aww bless little Burke! I love the name. It's always so funny when they see their reflection for the first time  

Ellesu, my Poodle wasn't so keen on other people touching him when we were out. He was also been protective of me. Actually once i was picking my sister up from work and he was in the car with me and i had the window wound down a bit so he could have air, and while waiting for my sister, this man came over to the car saying how he used to have Poodle's and stuck his hand right in the window to touch my dog before i could stop him, Cary immiediately growled at him, the man said a few choice words and stormed off. But what did he expect?  

My new dog Noah is ok if you don't go to stroke him on the top of his head, he prefers to sniff hands first, but i'd prefer it if people just asked. Because he's a puppy they automatically go all cutesy and expect him to like it.


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## Amyshojai

So glad little Burke is home! It's funny how some dogs react to reflections and others don't. Has to do somewhat with facial conformation and placement of the eyes. The structure and acuity actually differs from breed to breed, with some having better 'near vision' and others more "far sighted." Some can actually recognize TV images, too.  

Others have already weighed in on the question about petting strange dogs--Pawz4Me nailed it. I think we agree on most everything "pets."  

Remember that to a dog, a hand coming downward toward the head/face can be quite daunting and may actually trigger defensive behavior. Ask the owner first--that's simply polite. It's also a safety issue for both you AND the dog. Should you get bit, that puts the dog at risk for discipline or worse so think about the dog, too. Often, it's best to offer a hand for a sniff first, then scratch the dog's neck or chest rather than patting down on top of the head.

Grass eating--puppies explore their world by putting stuff in their mouths. Burke is still in that stage. And he may discover that he likes the taste of grass, many do. 

Some of the signals the pup is preparing to poop/pee include sniffing the ground and circling. So that's something to watch. Enjoy these new puppy days...they grow up SOOOO fast!


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## Sandpiper

It really has gone quite well so far. Good when WE are in a routine. It's all new for Burke and for me.

Quiet night. NO crying. In the crate in my bedroom. Smooth Jazz on the radio and fan whirring.

Ate all his breakfast and eliminated outside -- and inside! It doesn't show up on my floor. I stepped in it. Wasn't much. Pick up with TP and flush. Spray floor with Nature's Miracle.

Now when I put him in the closed crate, he will cry / bark for a while. Then quiet down IF he can see (or hear?) me. The crying / barking is not good cuz I'm in condo building. I can't let him out cuz that will promote it when he goes back in. *How do I stop the crying / barking when he's in the crate? * I had to go out for a few minutes. Crying / barking when I came back.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Now when I put him in the closed crate, he will cry / bark for a while. Then quiet down IF he can see (or hear?) me. The crying / barking is not good cuz I'm in condo building. I can't let him out cuz that will promote it when he goes back in. *How do I stop the crying / barking when he's in the crate? * I had to go out for a few minutes. Crying / barking when I came back.


This is all normal--SO glad you had a quiet night, that's actually a bit unusual. As for handling the barking when he goes into the crate, this is where "special" chew toys/treats can be very helpful. I'd suggest one of the puppy size Kong puzzle toys with a bit of Kong Stuffin or peanut butter inside. Burke gets that ONLY when inside the crate. There will be a bit of fussing, but if he has a treat to play with/lick yummy stuff, he'll learn to anticipate that. That gives him a better alternative to use his yapper than...uhm...yapping. *s*


----------



## Jane917

Burke is soon going to soon realize that when he is put into the crate it means you will be leaving him, even if only for a few minutes. Therefore, going into the crate must always be a pleasant experience. Having a favorite Kong filled with a treat will soon reinforce that the crate is a good place. 

As for Jack, he is not crated when we are gone. However, he is usually put in the backyard. Jack LOVES the backyard, but only when we are out there too. When he sees DH change from his crocs to regular shoes, he knows it is a bad sign for him. First he checks around to see if he is going too....he sits by the closet to wait for the leash to come out. If that doesn't happen, he slinks around looking sad for a while. A spaniel can look very sad.....   I know he is fine when we are gone, but he gives us the big hoopla dance when we come home.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya adjusted to her crate quickly and easily. Cooper never adjusted to the crate. We used a Kong with treats and peanut butter in the crate with both dogs plus a harder toy. Caya snuggled down on her towels and slept and seemed content. She never really whined and would be sitting in her crate wagging her tail when I got home from work.

Cooper would ignore the Kong and whine and howl as soon as he went in the crate. I would come home to find his towels bunched in the corner with slobber all around the crate, jumping and whapping his head against the top of it. We tried the dog pheromones which made no difference. He escaped three times and was happy as a clam outside of the crate. No chewing, no slobber, just happy puppy munching on a toy left upstairs. 

I think part of the problem was that Caya was out of the crate by the time we got Cooper. She would chill in the guest bedroom. We didn't want to leave an unhousebroken Cooper out of the crate and thought it would be unfair to let Caya chill outside of the crate while he was in it. I think he would smell Caya and want to be with her. Then again, he was not with her when he broke out of his crate (we ended up having to zip tie all the doors and top of the crate) and he was happy as a clam.

He is fine in the hallway with Caya these days.

We can't leave the dogs in the backyard. There are people who steal dogs from back yards to use them as bait dogs for training fighting dogs.


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## drenee

Fiance's sister has a lab she got from a shelter a few years ago.  He had a lot of separation anxiety and disliked the crate when she had to leave him for the day.  She also lives in a condo, so hates to expose the neighbors to constant barking.  She was told by a trainer to put him in the crate, leave the area for a few short minutes and return with a treat.  Repeat this process, staying gone a few extra minutes each time.  It worked well.
deb


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## MamaProfCrash

We tried that. Never took. (sigh)

Cooper is a special boy but we love him. Outside of his crate he is a happy little guy who wants belly rubs and to chase tennis balls.


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## angelmum3

Like others said, you have to make the crate a place he feels safe and comfortable, adding a special toy, giving treats, making it in and out at different times - so he doesnt know if you've left or not - or how long he'll be in there, 5 min - 3 hours etc - just keep mixing it up.. 

I leave the tv or radio on also - not sure if Zeus even cares - but I think it makes a difference!! 

its all new, he's testing his environment!!


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## Jane917

ProfCrash said:


> We can't leave the dogs in the backyard. There are people who steal dogs from back yards to use them as bait dogs for training fighting dogs.


OMG, that is horrible! We live on 1/2 acre, with a very large, fenced in backyard. The fence is 6' tall.


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## Sandpiper

I can't stand myself.  I had Puppy Kong earlier.  Put treat in it.  Put it down.  Now couple hours later . . . WHERE IS IT!  I do this all the time.  

ETA:  I found it.  It was under . . . .


----------



## Sandpiper

Has anybody used the indoor grass pads?  Just heard from a friend who has a friend who's had success with it and is happy with it.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Has anybody used the indoor grass pads? Just heard from a friend who has a friend who's had success with it and is happy with it.


Nope, haven't used them. Perhaps they're okay for interim or of you're in a highrise and simply can't get the pup/dog outside in a timely manner. But otherwise, IMO, it's teaching the pup two different things and he'll have to "unlearn" that going in the house. I always recommend going straight to outdoor training to associate potty with "outside only."

I'll be interested in how others have had this work--or not.


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## Sandpiper

It would be one or the other.  Thought I was going with outside.  But now I'm thinking . . . .


ETA:  I've got to remember this puppy stuff does not go on forever.  One day he will be a brilliant grown up boy.


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## Pawz4me

Amyshojai said:


> I think we agree on most everything "pets."


Yes, I've noticed that, too!


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## Sandpiper

Another quiet night.  Just a couple little whimpers.  I can even get up during the night and do "my thing" without waking him!

I was dreading a rainy day and taking him out.  Rain bothers me more than him.  Doesn't bother him at all.  First trip out this morning he finished his biz purdy quickly.    Then ready to play in the rain . . . or just sit in the wet grass.  I don't think so.  I gotta go in.  

Vet appointment at 11:15 this morning.

I got a new camera not too long ago.  Something between a point & shoot and DSLR.  Have to learn how to use it?!


----------



## Amyshojai

Sounds like smooth puppy sailing, that's sweet! And as for learning the camera...uhm, YES already! We're impatiently waiting here, LOL!


----------



## Tripp

I agree with Amy, we need a puppy fix.


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## drenee

Maybe you could talk to Scarlet about the camera.  She's very good with hers.  
deb


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## Sandpiper

It is going basically OK.  Vet this morning.  He's 6 plus lbs.  Bordatella shot.  Tiny pill to start him on heartworm.  Had to take him in his crate in the back seat like the ride here on Saturday.  He did not enjoy that today.  

So I took the wire crate back to the local pet shop and got a small plastic crate.  Definitely smaller than what I have now.  Something to put him in for car rides to vet, etc. around town.  He will grow out of it.  

He was alone for about 30 minutes.  Quiet when I left.  Quiet when I got back.  Don't know what happened in between.  Quiet

He ate a good lunch.  Now when I want it to come out so I can take it to the vet -- it's not??  Doesn't always come out kinda soon?

Do you give your dogs heartworm med year round?  Or 3/4 to 2/3 of the year, not in winter, and then test for heartworm in the spring and start med again?

What about flea and tick med?  Breeder said she and her breeder friends prefer garlic and brewers yeast as opposed to a drug.


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## Amyshojai

The national parasite research council recommends year-round heartworm and flea prevention. For fleas, probably depends on your neck of the woods--but heartworm preventative is cheap and saves the dog's life so I wouldn't gamble on that. 

Garlic and brewer's yeast does NOT prevent fleas. The yeast contains vitamin B that can help with health, and healthy dogs are less susceptible/bothered by fleas. *shrug* Won't do a dang thing for ticks. There are too many tick-borne diseases (ehrlichia, Lyme, etc) that can debilitate/kill dogs, I wouldn't risk it. Garlic tastes good to dogs, and it may have a bit of repellent activity BUT...it can be overdosed, too and cause Heinz body anemia in susceptible dogs. 

There are products that protect dogs against all-of-the-above...heartworm, fleas and ticks. I'm not a fan of dosing too much, either, so the least amount gets my vote.


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> He was alone for about 30 minutes. Quiet when I left. Quiet when I got back. Don't know what happened in between. Quiet


One way to tell is to buy a voice-activated recorder. You can get them for $30 or so, I think.



> Doesn't always come out kinda soon?


Not always. 



> Do you give your dogs heartworm med year round? Or 3/4 to 2/3 of the year, not in winter, and then test for heartworm in the spring and start med again?


We give it year-round here, but it depends on geography. In some colder areas it's not necessary to give it during the winter. Ask your vet. Everything I've heard states that testing is required once a year in order for the vet to legally "refill" the prescription (doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you give it year-round).



> What about flea and tick med? Breeder said she and her breeder friends prefer garlic and brewers yeast as opposed to a drug.


I tried garlic and brewers yeast for flea control way back in the dark ages before topical treatments were available. My conclusion? Both are totally and completely useless. Also, garlic can have serious health consequences (a type of anemia) if you give too much. The problem is, no one really knows how much is too much. And brewer's yeast is a very common food allergy trigger for dogs (although hopefully Burke will never have that problem).


----------



## Sandpiper

Thanks for all the answers and help.  I do appreciate it.  

Lunch came out.  Took it to vet.  So was gone again.  Quiet!  So I guess he knows when I leave that I will come back.  

Things are generally going well.  I hope he does catch on to housetraining.  He is smart.  He will.


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## angelmum3

yes, its still early in his life, and early in his life with you!  It sounds like all is going well!

Heart meds - like PP said, its not that expensive, and there is no downside - so I do all year...

Flea Meds - harder.  At the lake last year DS dog had fleas - it was awful!  But with our cold winters and springs, I only give the flea med June, July, August, September... I use what the vet recommended, DS uses a cheaper med from PetSmart (its still the liquid,)  I do worry about the chemical, but I think having fleas and ticks is much worse!


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## Sandpiper

I only remember Beagle having fleas once that we knew of.  If you live reasonably clean, are fleas not really likely?  

Ticks -- you really have to go country / forest to pick 'em up?  Not so likely either?  Saw program not long ago on PBS about Lyme disease in humans.  Yikes!!!


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> If you live reasonably clean, are fleas not really likely?


It has nothing at all to do with cleanliness or lack thereof. IME you just seem to have fleas in your area or you don't. Probably has something to do with what type of vegetation you have (it seems to me that fleas and ticks abound around pine trees). A lot of it has to do with how much wildlife is around, if there is a population of feral/stray cats, etc. If you go to a dog park, you have to assume there are fleas present. Dogs can pick up fleas at the vet's, at the groomer's, while being boarded, while saying "hello" to a dog you meet walking down the street.

Edited to add: The absolute worst time we ever had with fleas was many years ago. DH bought several bags of topsoil from Lowe's and stacked them in the garage. Only a day or two later did we realize they were completely infested with fleas. And we had three dogs at the time, who accessed the backyard through the garage. In no time we had fleas in the garage, in the house, in the yard. It was horrible.


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## Amyshojai

Oh my goodness, hadn't thought of the infestation possible from gardening supplies. Yikes! (making notes). Here in TX it's awful this year for fleas. Keeping yards mowed helps but the best is preventive on your pet. If they go outside, fleas find 'em.


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## ellesu

Sandpiper, I'm so glad all is going well. It's so interesting to follow your and Burke's  adventure. Amazing how a pet can bring change and a different routine to your life. Pretty soon it'll be your normal routine. On my walk this evening I passed a woman who was using the hose at the condo car wash area to wash her dog. The poor doggie looked so sad - but that cool water looked pretty good to me.    

And....I read hubby the posts in response to my question about petting dogs without asking. He's rethinking his actions.


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## Sandpiper

I'll have my normal routine again?    Or at least much more of it?  All this puppy stuff is temporary?  I tell myself that.  

This evening I was thinking he can by hyper at times.  Anxious to see how puppy social goes Thursday afternoon.  And anxious to start school (Puppy Class 1).  We both have some learnin' to do.

He has pretty well mastered going upstairs.  Going downstairs is much more difficult.  Depth perception?


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## angelmum3

Fleas - I was thinking as long as we are only in our yard, fleas shouldnt be a problem - then when we took him on the road trip to my parents, we stopped at the roadstop along the tollway - I think that's where my DS' dog picked up the fleas - 

so the preventative is truly a good idea - because once they jump on the dog - its insane to get rid of, and those fleas get in your carpet, in your bed ... on you --- frightening!!

also, do know puppies for quite awhile sleep A LOT!!  so yes, you need to exercise, daily walks where they can smell, and investigate - that makes them tired too!!

know your life has changed - forever... for the best - you have a Forever Friend!!  You have to feed him, take him out, and you get unconditional love in return...

but the anxiety factor - yes, that will go away!!!


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## Sandpiper

What would I do without you guys (and another message board )? *Thank you.*


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## Sandpiper

Another quiet night.  He did cry a little at 5:30 this morning.  Some light coming through drapes.  Thought, "I have to get up."  NO.  It is still too early.  I ignored him.  (Crate is right next to my bed.)  He went back to sleep until I got up at 7:15.  

Last time out last night, first thing this morning, and after breakfast, we went out the door and I said, "Hurry up.  Hurry up."  He DID!  Didn't waste any time.  GOOD, boy.  

He is so cute going up and down stairs.  I thought stairs here would be too big for him, but he is doing it.  Up is easier than down.  

Yesterday I got a smaller plastic crate to use in the car for short trips around town.  It fits in front seat next to me (2-door Civic).  He will outgrow it.  Haven't tried it as yet.  I expect (hope) he will be OK with it -- not that he will totally enjoy it.  

As I said, small car.  Anyone with ideas for rides around town (so short) with him as time goes on?  I hope he does enjoy riding in the car when he grows up.


----------



## 908tracy

Sandpiper,

I am thoroughly enjoying your adventure in puppy keeping. I wish you many years of happiness with Burke! Just remember, puppyhood is not forever, and before you know it you will have a well behaved friend forever.


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## Amyshojai

My first shepherd hated car rides--shivered and cried and never enjoyed them although he would finally settle down with long trips. But the Magical-Dawg thinks the car is his bestest toy EVER and begs to go for rides all the time. 

One caveat--if you plan to have him in a carrier on the front seat, turn off the airbag on that side! Seat belt the carrier in place. Airbags can crush carriers, which is why I recommend back seat for pets. But some cars don't have back seats in which case at least switching off the airbag is an alternative.

Short trips are best. Associate fun, good things with the car--special treats or toys. Maybe stopping at drive-thru (the bank, dry cleaner, fast food) where he gets a special tiny treat or attention. If you're happy about it and he doesn't know any better at this age, that's very positive.

I've an article on this here: http://puppies.about.com/od/OwnerPuppyCare/a/Car-Rides-With-Dogs.htm


----------



## Sandpiper

How do you know when they're housetrained?  When they go to door and bark?  How?  What?

Also, now I am thinking of a wire crate (den) for living room.  Decor is important.    I've found a white one on-line.  It has a metal pan / bottom.  Is one or the other better for some reason -- metal or plastic?


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## Amyshojai

LOL! When are they house trained? Well...yes, when they "know" to tell you they need to go, and are faithful. I'd say when the pup has consistently alerted you to his needed for 3 weeks without a lapse. But they can re-lapse, ya know, and puppies typically develop the ability to "hold it" as they mature. As a general rule of paw, we say they're good for holding it during a typical 8-10 hour work day once they reach 8-10 months old. Some do better earlier, and others take longer. Toy breed puppies are notorious for taking a looooooong time to house train. Sounds like Burke already has the idea which is 2/3rds of the battle.


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## angelmum3

Sandpiper said:


> How do you know when they're housetrained? When they go to door and bark? How? What?
> 
> Also, now I am thinking of a wire crate (den) for living room. Decor is important.  I've found a white one on-line. It has a metal pan / bottom. Is one or the other better for some reason -- metal or plastic?


I always think of it as "I'm trained" to take them out -

For car rides, there are seat belt thingys for dogs - you have to be consistent - for my dog I'd take him to pick up dd at school - he wants to be IN MY LAP - nope, so always shove him over - its not the best, on long car rides I make him sit on the floor between the 2 front seats in the van - I put a fleece down for him. So it really depends on you - and Burke!

For the crate - I have a large fleece that I throw over his metal crate - like you would for a bird - I only used it at night until ds brought his dog, and they'd bark, so now when I leave, I dont want them barking, I cover the crates... I know my mil covers the crate in the bedroom for her dog, and she has a crate in the living room that she doesnt cover, that's the crate she uses for comfort for her dog - like when we visit with our dog, or when the grandkids come and want to play chase, her dog loves that safe crate!


----------



## Coral Moore

Sandpiper said:


> Do you give your dogs heartworm med year round? Or 3/4 to 2/3 of the year, not in winter, and then test for heartworm in the spring and start med again?
> 
> What about flea and tick med? Breeder said she and her breeder friends prefer garlic and brewers yeast as opposed to a drug.


I use Revolution for both heartworm and fleas. My pooch doesn't tolerate the HW pills well. She barfed the first three doses we tried to give her back up. She's fine with the drops and it has the added bonus of doing fleas too. I only give it to her 8 months of the year, March through October. I've yet to see a mosquito or flea in January in CT.  They give her a HW test every spring to make sure and then we start her back up on the Revo.


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## MamaProfCrash

We use flea nad tick and heart worm year round. It is easy to get into the routine and I feel better knowing that the dogs are protected. We also got Caya and Cooper vaccinated against lyme disease.

I am curious, what food did you end up with and how much do you feed a 6 pound dog?


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## Ann Herrick

Coral said:


> ...I've yet to see a mosquito or flea in January in CT.  ...


I grew up in CT--yup, no fleas or mosquitoes at that time of year!


----------



## Sandpiper

Breeder was feeding pups Solid Gold / Hundchen Flocken (?) puppy food.  So of course I am.  She includes a bag of it as part of "package" with pup.  He gets slightly rounded 1/4 cup three times per day.  Doesn't always eat it all?  I'm not used to that.  Certainly Beagle and IIRC previous Border Terrier (40 years ago) didn't know when to stop when eating.  Ate everything in sight.


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## cc84

Aww Burke sounds like he's an amazing little fella. And very good doing his toilet. We haven't conquered that with Noah yet, but i'm optimistic!


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## Amyshojai

That food has a good reputation. Puppies Burke's age get the luxury of eating as much as they want, until full. I should be so lucky! LOL! 

Beagles are rarely used in pet food company feeding trials any more because they NEVER stop eating and will eat the bowl empty no matter what's in it. Labs learn to eat the food down to the same level in each bowl (when it's a taste test) so neither one gets taken away and they get both. 

Pudgy puppies are cute. But pups on the thin side, that stay lean as adults, live longer (up to 2 years longer!) and are healthier than overweight dogs, so I wouldn't sweat it.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> That food has a good reputation. Puppies Burke's age get the luxury of eating as much as they want, until full. I should be so lucky! LOL!
> 
> Beagles are rarely used in pet food company feeding trials any more because they NEVER stop eating and will eat the bowl empty no matter what's in it.
> 
> Pudgy puppies are cute. But pups on the thin side, that stay lean as adults, live longer (up to 2 years longer!) and are healthier than overweight dogs, so I wouldn't sweat it.


So I shouldn't worry if he doesn't eat everything at every meal?

In the '50s we took our Beagle to a nearby kennel (still there!) for two weeks. When we picked him up I could not believe what I was seeing. He was HUGE. Bloated. They let him eat his fill !!!!!!!! "Don't you know Beagles don't know when to stop??"

Just noticed huge scratch on my leg. (Shorts weather.) Sharp little nails. Breeder uses Dremel on dogs' nails. Sharper cuz of that? Clipped better? Does it matter? I doubt very much I'll be doing it.

I love it when he's quiet and peacefully sleeping or chewing on toys outside of the crate. He sure has his times when he want to play. He lets me know. WOOF WOOF WOOF in his high-pitched little voice.


----------



## Amyshojai

As long as he's eating and not losing weight I wouldn't worry if he doesn't finish every meal, no.

I got one of those dremel-type nail thingies but on a GSD it takes forever and it's quickly to clip. I use my own nail clippers on the cat's claws. On Burke, you could...probably should...start now while he's little and "pay" him with a treat for each nail clip. Just do one a night and you'll keep 'em in good shape and he won't get upset with having all done at once. I think I have an article on that too, let's see (going to look).

Found it! http://puppies.about.com/od/OwnerPuppyCare/a/Puppy-Grooming-Nail-Care.htm


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> So I shouldn't worry if he doesn't eat everything at every meal?


Nope.



> Just noticed huge scratch on my leg. (Shorts weather.) Sharp little nails. Breeder uses Dremel on dogs' nails. Sharper cuz of that? Clipped better? Does it matter? I doubt very much I'll be doing it.


Dremels are wonderful. IMO the absolute best tool for nails, much better than clippers. They make the nails nice and smooth. Puppy nails are naturally sharp, and it's been at least a few days now since they've been Dremeled, so it's normal that they're getting sharp again. You need to decide on what tool you're going to use, whether it be a Dremel or clippers, and start getting him acclimated to having his feet handled and his nails cut right away. It's something you're going to have to do regularly his entire life, or pay to have it done, so the sooner you start getting him used to it the better.


----------



## Sandpiper

Pawz4me said:


> You need to decide on what tool you're going to use, whether it be a Dremel or clippers, and start getting him acclimated to having his feet handled and his nails cut right away. It's something you're going to have to do regularly his entire life, or pay to have it done, so the sooner you start getting him used to it the better.


When it comes to many things, not just dogs, I'm a payer not a doer.  Breeder did say get pups used to things early on.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We go to Pet Smart for clipping and grinding. Cooper and Caya both have black nails which makes knowing where the quick is hard.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke has black nails too.


----------



## KindleMom

I would never try to trim our dog's claws.    I'm a huge chicken when it comes to possibly hurting her.  We go to a groomer.  Daisy loves the attention too so we call it her spa day.  

We hired a trainer recommended by our vet to come to our house for a couple hours every few weeks to train us and the dog.  She helped us so much.  We really had no idea what we were doing as we rescued the dog and got her the day after we heard about her - so no preparation.  This trainer was invaluable in her knowledge.  She also recommended types of food, dog treats, place to board and groom.  We took all of her advice and have not regretted a second of it.  She still calls to check on Daisy and us too.

In short, we found a wonderful groomer from our trainer.  Maybe you could ask your vet for a recommendation.  I also asked on Facebook and got referrals from my friends who live in the area.


----------



## angelmum3

Sandpiper said:


> Burke has black nails too.


from Sally Hanson, get one of those really strong nail filers, and just like sandpaper, you can use that to file down the really sharp parts - but mostly, see how often you will have to get them clipped... I clip my dog - he has both black and white - so I'm overly cautious with the black, and then use the nail file - started early, and he's fine - I dont do all ten nails at once tho - maybe 8-10 at a sleepy time...

ds dog all black nails - not sure what to do with that!


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> When it comes to many things, not just dogs, I'm a payer not a doer.  Breeder did say get pups used to things early on.


That's fine if you want to pay, many people are freaked out at the thought of clipping their dog's nails. But follow the breeder's advice and get Burke used to having his feet/nails handled. You can make it a part of petting him. Also mess with his ears, handle him all over. It will prevent him from having any stress or anxiety about being handled, and your groomer will love you for it.

One of my dogs has super, super fast growing nails. I have to clip or Dremel two or three times a week to keep up with his nail growth. Now granted he's a bit unusual in that department, but I can't imagine having to pay to have his nails done.


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic is so big and DETERMINED about his nails--doesn't mind the rear paws, but a big baby over the front--that the vet staff would insist on sedating him for it. So I manage at home. One front paw/nail at a time. Luckily they don't grow too fast. 

Getting recommendations is a great way to find folks you like and trust.


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## Sandpiper

Hmmm.  Fine puppy hair (?) is coming off.  Figure it's time for brushing.  I have a little slicker brush.  Just brush lightly.  Oh yeah?  Does not like it at all.  What do I do?  I don't know anything.

I remember so little about details of Ribbon 40 years ago.  She must have been a puppy, but maybe not so young?  I remember brushing her and trying to strip some.  No problems with her where that was concerned.


----------



## Amyshojai

A good time to brush a puppy is when he's tired and sleepy.   One stroke with your hand, two strokes, the 3rd with the slicker, another with your hand, then the slicker, and so on. Let him associate light strokes with petting and quit BEFORE he gets too tired. Maybe do this while he's eating, too--associate meals (good stuff!) with grooming.


----------



## Sandpiper

And . . . as I've said, not a peep (woof) after lights out and we go to bed.  Absolute QUIET.    When I put him in crate during the day, yes, he may bark a little then quiets down -- at least if I'm still here.  During the past couple days I have left and done some errands.  Apparently went OK here.  But this morning . . . had to go to Petco.  He was kinda barking when I left, but figured he would quiet down shortly.  When I got back (45 mins - hour) neighbors said he barked most of the time!!!  NOOOOOO.  (Remember, I'm in condo.)  This is my biggest fear about pup.

What do you do about that?  If you put him in and he barks and you let him out, that doesn't do any good.  If you put him in, walk away, and he barks -- go back and . . . ?  Going back even gives him what he wants.  WHAT do you do??

ETA:  Breeder gave me book "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons as part of the package with pup.  So just looked in there. Hmmm.  Could it be . . . ?  The past couple days when I've left Burke alone in the crate, it's been quiet around the condo building.  I always leave soft music on for pup and bird.  But today, my neighbor was having new windows (four sets of sliding glass door sets) installed in her condo.  POUNDING.  POUNDING.  POUNDING.  GRINDING.  It's next door to me.  Sound reverberates through.  Could that make him bark / bark more?  I don't enjoy when "remodeling noise" goes on in the building, but it happens now and then.


----------



## Amyshojai

Brian's a good guy and his books are terrific. Neat that the breeder includes that in the package! (will have to send him a note, he'll be happy...)

YES the noise from next door is more than enough to trigger barks. I'd bark, too!


----------



## Sandpiper

Turns out she had only one window set done.  Wanted two out of her four done, but the second didn't "fit the hole".  She's canceling the second window set.  (Our 40 - 50 year old building isn't level, etc., etc.)  Good neighbor.  She understands the stress of "remodeling noise" for everyone in the building, including Burke.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Turns out she had only one window set done. Wanted two out of her four done, but the second didn't "fit the hole". She's canceling the second window set. (Our 40 - 50 year old building isn't level, etc., etc.) Good neighbor. She understands the stress of "remodeling noise" for everyone in the building, including Burke.


That's terrific! It's always so sad and stressful when neighbors don't understand. Hope your neighbor gets "visitation" sometimes and puppy smooches...that's often reward enough! (at least in my case)


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## MamaProfCrash

We were thrilled that Cooper didn't pee in the bedroom he and Caya stay in when the cleaning people are here. It was the first time that he didn't have an accident. Caya still runs away from the hair dryer. New and different noises can set dogs off. It sounds like the construction made Burke nervous and he barked.


----------



## Sandpiper

Puppy social today!!  That was fun.  Cindy really knows pups, their personalties, and how they interact.  Burke and I just sat outside the ring and watched first.  Burke hung around my legs.  Then Cindy had one friendly, relaxed pup come outside the ring and interact with Burke.  That brought him out.  Tried a different pup.  OK.  Burke went in the ring.  No problems.  He IS a terrier alright!!


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## Amyshojai

Oh what fun! Nothing cuter than puppies playing together.


----------



## Sandpiper

Photos from the breeder as part of the package:









3 days old









13 days old









First feeding









Burke (I think) - 6 weeks old









The litter


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## Amyshojai

SQUEEEEEEEE!!!

Didja ever notice...newborns and very young pups look very much alike, no matter the breed.

Here's a 17-day-old GSD:

tan boy 17 days by amyshojai, on Flickr


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## Sandpiper

Today I'm realizing sometimes the barking (when he's out of crate) is just for the fun of it?!  

Have to admit, haven't been too rigid at all with schedule in general.  I should be -- at least more so.

There are times (like now) when I think this WILL work.        But then ask me again in an hour.


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## Robert Clear

Why did I have to click on this thread!? Now I want a dog more than ever! Curse my small flat. Amyshojai and Sandpiper, those puppy pictures are lovely.


----------



## Amyshojai

Robert Clear said:


> Why did I have to click on this thread!? Now I want a dog more than ever! Curse my small flat. Amyshojai and Sandpiper, those puppy pictures are lovely.


Ya know, puppies (and adult dogs) do come in "small flat sizes." *vbg*


----------



## ellesu

OH! Such cute pictures! BTW, the local nightly news here just did a segment on a product for dogs that get excited - during thunderstorms, loud noises, car rides, etc.  The product is called Thundershirt - it sort of reminded me of swaddling a baby.  You may already know about this and it may not be worth anything - I'm sure some of the pet-sperts on this thread will know something.  I thought about you and Burke when I heard it.


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## Amyshojai

ellesu said:


> OH! Such cute pictures! BTW, the local nightly news here just did a segment on a product for dogs that get excited - during thunderstorms, loud noises, car rides, etc. The product is called Thundershirt - it sort of reminded me of swaddling a baby. You may already know about this and it may not be worth anything - I'm sure some of the pet-sperts on this thread will know something. I thought about you and Burke when I heard it.


Yep, I've got an article on the homepage about fireworks fears and it includes info about Thundershirt...(really cute pug puppy with a flag, all patriotic-like, LOL!) at http://www.puppies.About.com


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## Leslie

In another thread, someone posted about using a Thundershirt on a long drive for a dog who didn't like riding in the car. She said it was like a miracle garment. Put it on and the dog immediately calmed down.

L


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## Amyshojai

The one in my article is Storm Defender, has a money back guarantee I think. It's the one many of my behaviorist colleagues also recommend. It works differently than Thundershirt, which is a pressure-point garment that uses the same principles as TTouch wraps. Storm Defender duplicates some of that but also works to cut down the static electricity charge that some dogs react to.

With storms, it's not just noise--it's also barometric pressure, lightening, electricity, wind--a whole smorgasbord of issues.   

Every dog is different. Shepherds tend to be more noise phobic than gun dogs (labs, etc) that were bred to actually get excited at noise. But any dog can develop phobias with unexpected sudden noises. 

With pups, socializing appropriately helps enormously! Living in N Texas in Tornado Alley, we had plenty of ops for counter-conditioning when the Magical-Dawg was a pup. Basically every time there was a storm, clap of thunder, whatever, I threw a puppy party...

"Magic?! Did you HEAR THAT?! What fun, wasn't that a loud noise? Good boy, COOKIE for the BOOM!"

...and so forth. *s*


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## Sandpiper

I looked some at the ThunderShirt site.  Seems to claim it's a cure-all to many problems.  Is it good?


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## Sandpiper

Hmmm. That probably means *question*. When we were at puppy social, Burke eventually just tore around the ring. Wow!

I've only had him on a 4' leash here. I do have 6'. But noticing when we're outside, he will start tearing around like crazy. It is just energy and his genes. I got a Flexi Classic All retractable belt leash, 16', small to medium, up to 44 lbs that I thought I would use later when he's bigger. Maybe NOW? No yard to let him run free. Is he ready for the retractable leash already?? He needs to run off that energy.

"Hurry up" does seem to at least get pee out of him quickly. And I think he really has learned "inside". He heads right for the door into the building.  And he seems to know which doorway / door (inside the building) goes to garbage room when I'm carrying the little blue bag.


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## caseyf6

Amy, I'd never have guessed that was a GSD puppy!  Neat how they do look alike as babies.

No advice here at all (we don't have dogs, lol) but I'd love to see NEW pictures.


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## Amyshojai

I'm not a fan of retractable leashes--strongly recommend AGAINST them, in fact. *shrug*  They teach dogs to pull on the leash, and that's never a good thing. A lot can happen to a puppy/dog 16 feet away before you can "reel them in" too.

Try the 6 foot leash. Yes, puppies love to tear around and run off energy, that's a difficult situation when you don't have secure fencing. Something that works great for cats (similar situation!) and also for terriers is to get a sort of fishing-pole-style toy to wear their furry butts out! A lunge whip from horse tack store is perfect, and you can tie a stuffed toy or just a floppy rag on the end, drag it along the ground and swing just ahead of Burke to entice him to chase, attack/grab. That way he's still on that 6-foot leash (maybe attached to your waist?) and under your control but he gets to race in circles in that perimeter of safety. 

Another tip, IF he should ever wiggle off the leash/collar and run....DON'T CHASE HIM! that's the best reward for him running of all, a game of tag that you can't win. Instead, turn the other way and run in the opposite direction calling his name so HE chases YOU. (that's almost irresistible to puppies). Alternatively, sit on the ground and cry...seriously make some loud boo-hoo noises. Pups often will come to investigate and offer sympathy.


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## Sandpiper

Thanks, Amy!  Burke does something cute.  While on leash, he takes hold of it in his mouth up close to him.  Then runs very nicely, holding his head up ahead of me.  Looks like he is taking me for a walk.  Is that typical of all puppies or is it just too-cute Burke?


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## Amyshojai

Awwwww...that IS cute! Nope, not all pups do that. Magic wanted to play "tug" with the leash (big no-no). Long as Burke doesn't chew it up or play tug, probably harmless. And cute!


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## Pawz4me

It's a very common behavior among sporting breed pups, especially the retrieving breeds.  The instinct to have things in their mouths is hard for many to resist.


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## Sandpiper

At times he does want to chew on it or tug, I stop that. But he will take it in his mouth up close to him and trot very proudly ahead of me. *He is taking me for a walk.*


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## caseyf6

That's adorable.

Have to agree about retractable leashes, only by observation-- there just isn't adequate control over the dog, and that doesn't seem safe for any kind of situation.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Sandpiper said:


> At times he does want to chew on it or tug, I stop that. But he will take it in his mouth up close to him and trot very proudly ahead of me. *He is taking me for a walk.*












Even though this isn't a pic of him as a puppy, this is DH's dog, Maxx. He loved to walk other dogs! DH would take him on walks and Maxx would walk MIL's dog (leash in his mouth). Maxx was very well trained, so it worked.


----------



## tessa

How are thing going with you and your puppy?

Does he tell you when he needs to go out?

tessa


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## Sandpiper

He's still mostly crated or tethered.  But I do think he is understanding the idea of going outside.  I'm in a condo.  To go out, we have to go down the hall, through a door, down a flight of stairs, and out another door.  During the first couple days when I walked him down the hall, he dribbled in the condo hall.  Thought I would have to carry him outside from my unit.  I think he now understands when we're walking down the hall that we will be outside soon.  In the first few days he did pee twice and poo once in my unit.  I don't worry about it much now.  At least I think the housebreaking is going well.  

Just came from the first puppy class.  He does mouth / puppy bite my hands.  I am a little tired of that.  Hands are kind of sore from that.  We got a ways to go.


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## tessa

That first summer with Daisy my arms looked like chew toys.  She still likes to mouth/nip a little. 


tessa


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## Casse

Sandpiper said:


> Just came from the first puppy class. He does mouth / puppy bite my hands. I am a little tired of that. Hands are kind of sore from that. We got a ways to go.


My Bella (tiny toy poodle) was the same way with mouthing of the hands. The best advise I received was to make a sharp noise and turn away complete from her - Bella is very sensitive so she really didn't like this.... I had to take this one step further - made the noise, said "no", and walked out the room behind a shut door for a count of 10. After a few sessions just the noise stopped the problem and she's now over it.

I know if can be sooooo frustrating as your hands really do start hurting but hang tough it gets better


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## Sandpiper

I did break out the retractable leash this evening.  Went out in the condo's good-sized unfenced yard and let 'im rip.  That's good for him and me.  He's sleeping very peacefully in his crate.   

Occasionally he goes into his crate on his own to get a toy, but not to stay in.  Although he doesn't enjoy going in and then having the door closed behind him, I think it is becoming "his house".  One of these days he'll go in for a nap on his own and can walk out when he's ready.


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## MamaProfCrash

Cooper would go and play in his crate and nap in his crate on his own. But when you shut that door. Caya wouldn't play in her crate or nap in there but was fine when we shut the door. It is amazing how much personality they have.


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## cc84

The mouthing of the hand is annoying. Now that Noah nearly has his big teeth it's not so bad. But when i've been out and come back, he's all excited to see me, i wait a bit until he's calmed down then i reach to stroke him, he still likes to grab my sleeve as if to tell me he's not letting me go lol. I'm getting holes in my clothes with him  

He also liked to chase my feet as i walked, especially when i have my slippers on, again he's not so bad with that now.


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## ellesu

I'm temporarily in a place that's full of vacationers - hubby had a temp job here, and although not common it's not unusual to see people who have their dogs in strollers or in a cart like thingy attached behind their bikes.  I don't know if it's because it's so hot, because the dogs aren't people-trained (although I've not heard any dogs barking), or what.  Both dogs and owners seem happy.


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## mom2karen

Since you have the retractable leash already you can use it as a long line to let him run a bit, just pull it out by hand yourself while he is sitting instead of letting him pull it out.  That way he won't associate pulling on the lead with getting more range.


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## Jane917

I hope things are continuing to go well with Burke. The current issue of Dog Fancy has an article about Border Terriers. They are described as a 2 year old in dog clothing. Keep us updated on his progress!


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## Sandpiper

Trainer at puppy class suggested something to stop mouthing / puppy biting.  It works!  When pup bites, say "ouch" or yelp or whatever like a littermate / another pup and then turn around and ignore the biter.  Don't make eye contact.  It really works.  After two or three times, I realized Burke has virtually stopped?!  

Now have to find something as easy and quick to keep him from jumping on my legs.  Getting very scratched up in this warmer shorts weather.  And he discovered my shoelaces.  He goes after those sometimes.  And I have some wide-leg pants for warmer weather.  He has gone for the extra room in the legs a time or two.  NOOOOOOOO!


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## gajitldy

I have 4 dogs and walk 3 of them on retractable leashes...I love them.  Mine do not pull on them like they do with their regular leashes.  They just seem to appreciate the extra room.  Baylee likes to run circles around me to get out her "crazies".  Feels like lunging my horse. LOL

Diane


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## Sandpiper

Burke is 11 weeks old today.  Has he started teething?  About what age to age is that?


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## angelmum3

I just try and replace something he can chew when he is needing to chew - and like with babies - I keep several chew toys in freezer and give those to him - as well as those knotted ropes - he really has a strong need to chew when we first got him....


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## MamaProfCrash

Bitter Apple spray works nicely for discouraging chewey dogs.


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## Sandpiper

I tried Bitter Yuck first.  Didn't deter Burke much.  Got Bitter Apple yesterday.  He does not care for that.


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## Amyshojai

Had to catch up on the Burke antics--been absent a bit, hurt my back and can't sit for too long.  

Glad the Bitter Apple works--some dogs like that taste! I've found that Vicks spread on "forbidden" targets also can be off-putting (the smell, they don't have to taste it first). 

Glad the "ouch" works, too. I like your trainer's tips (I think we may be twins, LOL!). The jumping up on legs...well here's what's going on. Puppies jump up/aim licks at the older/in charge dog's (or person's) mouth and eyes--it's a signal that says "you're the boss." So often when we "shame" or tell the pup or dog "no" it increases the behavior because the dog redouble's efforts to placate you.

The answer? Well first clip the nails so they don't hurt you.   And for folks who don't mind the jumping up or licking, no problem--or kneel so the pup/dog can reach you. Otherwise, teach an alternate/conflicting behavior like a "sit" to receive attention. Ask for a "sit" and if Burke jumps up, turn your back and walk away. 

Dang, that's on my "to-write" list for the puppies.about.com site, just haven't gotten to it yet. Will post once I do.


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## Sandpiper

Amy, I'll try those things for jumping.  Just had little black nails trimmed last week.  Still scratch my legs.  (It's HOT today.  Shorts.)  I'll try "sit".  He's learning that.  Something's got to work.  I'm not enjoying the scratches.

Kind of surprising how they pick up on things just through accidental repetition.  When we're outside generally in the area of his potty tree (near the end of the condo wing) and I say "inside" (time to go inside; ready to go inside; let's go inside), he heads right for the door in.  I didn't try to teach him that.

Bitter Apple sort of works.  I think I'll give Vicks a try.  He really hasn't tried to chew much of anything in my condo as yet.  (He's 11 weeks and 2 days today.)  Knock on wood.


Something that almost happened couple days ago . . . someone in the condo building had neatly put a kleenex with about a dozen various pills (looked like prescription) on the floor next to the door out the end of the wing where Burke and I always go out.  Good thing I saw it first.  That could have been bad!  I could post a note on our Bboard and say don't do that -- I have a dog.  But who would do that in the first place??


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## caseyf6

Who DOES something like that  I really hope it wasn't put there to tempt your dog.  That is just crazy.


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## Sandpiper

caseyf6 said:


> Who DOES something like that I really hope it wasn't put there to tempt your dog. That is just crazy.


I doubt it. Burke is popular with everyone he has met in the building so far. There are the elderly in the building. (Even older than me. ) Someone more feeble in the mind. Why a pile of pills on a kleenex on the floor in a common area? What was that person thinking?


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## Sandpiper

This morning I thought Burke might be getting a little cramped in cramped in his plastic crate. I had a plastic box tied in it to shrink space in it so he wouldn't pee or poo in there. (He didn't.) Just took out the plastic box so he can stretch out. A little more spacious, but still not a whole lot of room.

Eventually I want to get this wire crate in white (GC213 / 2nd smallest size). And yesterday I ordered a bed for him. He's moving in. He's lived here two weeks today!


----------



## Amyshojai

That's the same crate I use for Magical-Dawg. Mine had a divider that I removed once he was grown...here he is the first week we had him. My, how he's grown!


Magic in crate c by amyshojai, on Flickr

Oh, and I made the bed/liner out of a cheapo blanket bought at a gas station--just got some eggcrate foam, folded the blanket in half and stitched up two sides, velro the fourth for easy washing. Made 3 of 'em for about $40, and use one to protect my car seat, one in the kitchen and one in his bed.


----------



## Sandpiper

I want a white wire crate (decor, ya know).  Only one or two manufacturers of white crates.  They don't come with dividers.


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## Sandpiper

I guess I could try spraying my ankles with Bitter Apple to deter ankle biting.

Breeder gave me another tip which I will try. Most dogs do not like the _smell_ of Vicks. If not, they won't even get close enough to chew / bite whatever. I am going to try that.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I guess I could try spraying my ankles with Bitter Apple to deter ankle biting.
> 
> Breeder gave me another tip which I will try. Most dogs do not like the _smell_ of Vicks. If not, they won't even get close enough to chew / bite whatever. I am going to try that.


Uhm....yeah, didn't I mention Vicks? *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Uhm....yeah, didn't I mention Vicks? *s*


Did you? Sorry, I missed it?! I stopped at Walgreen's on the way back from Borders  and got a jar of Vick's Baby Rub. Didn't have regular Vicks. Hopefully it will work.

If he is in teething stage now, KNOCK ON WOOD, he chews hard on his toys and not on much else at all. (Prayers that he continues and gets through teething fast.) Although he does go for my ankles, shoelaces, and pants legs. NOOOOOOO.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

The teething phase takes a while. Kong toys are favorites in our house.


----------



## Sandpiper

Vicks Baby Rub smell seems OK with Burke.  Would regular Vicks make a difference?  Should be stronger smell.  Worth trying that?


----------



## Amyshojai

It's the menthol smell that's off-putting to many pets. That said...some cats react to it like catnip, LOL!

But yes, it should be a strong odor.


----------



## Tatiana

ProfCrash said:


> The teething phase takes a while. Kong toys are favorites in our house.


Elk horns are also very good for them to chew on and not easily destroyed or easily cracked or anything. Dogs seem to enjoy them. We sell lots of them both large and small sizes. K-9 Cravings is one of the brand names...we also get them "loose" and unpackaged to sell. Ours run about $6.99 for the loose ones in small and medium small sizes. The larger medium and LARGE K-9 Cravings start at $11.99. They are not something you will have to replace frequently. Our Scottie (with German Shepherd size teeth) has been chewing on one for over six months now and hasn't made a dent in it yet. He's only scraped some of the outer coloring off but that's it. He chews on it for a couple of hours a day.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm just in from a walk around the building. When we got to big grass area, Burke started *frenetic* running at the end of the retractable leash. Good, running off energy. NOT. Confirmed. When he does that, he will suddenly and quickly go for my ankles. He did. No blood this time, but scraped / scratched skin with his teeth. In the future, have to shut him down as soon as he starts the frenzy.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Is there a dog park with a puppy play area? Burke might do well with a place to run and socialize.


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## Sandpiper

Once a week for a few months, we go to puppy social at training place.  They're just free to run in the ring.  There's no dog park nearby enough.  And breeder (and vet?) say because he hasn't had all his shots / vaccinations as yet, he shouldn't play in a place where a lot of unknown dogs have been.

I guess that frenzy is the terrier / ratter in him?!  He's smart, but he can be a "wild child".


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Ah yeah the shots thing. I spaced on his age.

Does he like to play fetch or something like that? You can play with him in the condo and help him burn off energy. I know that Caya and Cooper still will do random laps in the yard after we have played fetch or soccer or they have been wrestling. Puppies have a ton of energy that they burn of quickly then they nap.


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## Sandpiper

I have rolled a ball down the condo hallway right outside my door. That works pretty well. Just have to get bigger ball.

*Question:* Is it a puppy thing to walk through / splash in the water bowl? Mat and floor around the bowl gets purdy wet.

A lot of this stuff he'll grow out of, yes??


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Ummmm maybe. Caya and Cooper still play in the water bowl.


----------



## Pawz4me

Almost all puppies and young dogs have what's often referred to as FRAPs (Frenetic Random Activity Periods).  They will run about wildly with a look of pure joy on their faces.  Often they'll run so hard and fast it will appear that their back end is trying to pass the front end, and often it's difficult to impossible to get the puppy/dog to obey commands while in the midst of a FRAP.  I personally wouldn't want to stop a FRAPping dog, it's way too much fun to watch.  But in your shoes I'd try to remember to take along a toy to substitute for the ankles.  You might also try squatting down so he can't get to your ankles.

As far as playing in the water bowl -- he might outgrow it and he might not.  Or he might outgrow it when he's eight.  One thing a lot of people do to at least hinder it is to put the water bowl inside a slightly larger bowl.


----------



## Amyshojai

My breeder watered the pups in a very large, shallow pan and they'd learned to stand in it--part of that was Texas heat. And I think it's another reason the Magical-Dawg loves water so much! When he was a pup he'd stand in the water bowl to drink--and he did outgrow that. Really does depend on the dog. 

FRAPs--oh yeah, such fun! You can "borrow" from the world of cats for the terrier dawgies and do a fishing-pole-style toy that keeps the teeth at a distance but lets you run-him-ragged a bit. The lunge whips from horse tack shops work well--tie a small stuffed toy or even a rag on the end and drag it along the ground for him to chase (don't play "tug" or he'll tear it up). At his small size/age, one of the cat lure toys might work okay until he gets bigger, but I wouldn't go with a feather toy as he'll chew up and swallow that. Keep it on the ground so he's not leaping and potentially hurting himself.


----------



## Sandpiper

Pawz4me said:


> I personally wouldn't want to stop a FRAPping dog, it's way too much fun to watch. But in your shoes I'd try to remember to take along a toy to substitute for the ankles. You might also try squatting down so he can't get to your ankles.
> 
> As far as playing in the water bowl -- he might outgrow it and he might not. Or he might outgrow it when he's eight. One thing a lot of people do to at least hinder it is to put the water bowl inside a slightly larger bowl.


It IS fun to watch, but when it ends in a bite . . . . Might try the toy thing. Or maybe try going back to 4' leather leash and keeping much more control of him when we walk. And will try his water bowl in a larger bowl. Hopefully that will keep water in the bowl and feet out of it . . . whatever.

I was just in condo hallway rolling / throwing a ball. I'd go to him with a treat to give him when he let go of ball. After just a few times, he was bringing the ball back to me. Hmmmmm.


----------



## Jane917

My 5 year old Brittany still loves to splash in the water bowl. He knows all his basic commands, but when he is chasing birds, he has the mind for only one thing. We don't complain that he is disobedient, but that he is doing what he is supposed to be doing. As for terriers, generally they are strong willed and love to run. Some of what you are describing about Burke (not the biting) may be part of what he is bred to do.


----------



## Sandpiper

Someone on another message board suggested a spray bottle. That worked. After three sprays this morning when he was kind of going for ankles and shoes . . . he quit. The spray bottle is now my second best friend, after Burke. He is the sweetest, smartest, cutest little boy. (I would not have said that yesterday. )

Went to puppy social this afternoon. Told trainer about ankle biting and spray bottle. She said, "I would not have done that." Well, I would and did and Burke is none the worse for it.

This is why something had to be done -- NOW. Two darkest spots are the ankle nips that drew blood. Legs are otherwise full of scratches, etc. Mottled skin is result of combo of two drugs (one prescription and one very common OTC). Doc says it's permanent. I am thinking of trying acupuncture for it.


----------



## Amyshojai

If it worked, I won't argue with it.    My cat LIKES to be sprayed. Some pets do--and others get very testy as a result. I'd aim it at his furry bottom, not his eyes, just to be safe though.


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## MamaProfCrash

Yeah, Caya had me crying at one time with all of her nipping. I knew she wasn't trying to hurt me but I could not figure out how to get her to stop and she was biting and scratching. I don't know how we stopped it, honestly. I do know she got time out a few times and that we greatly increased the number of chew toys and time spent playing tug. It was rough. But totally worth it in the end


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic nailed me, too--during his juvenile delinquent puppy phase. Most go through that. You just do the best you can, hold your breath and try not to KILL the lil' bugger, and repeat:

"This too shall pass..."


----------



## Sandpiper

It's Burke! Sweet little boy? Or little devil?










On June 20, he was 6.3 lbs. On July 8, he was 8 lbs. His legs have grown!!! They look almost out of proportion to his body.


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## cc84

Ohh now he is a handsome fella! He has the sweetest face, but i do see mischief on it  

I love his name, i don't know if you ever watched Grey's Anatomy but there was a Doctor in that called Preston Burke, mostly just called Burke. I don't know if that's where you got his name from but i love it.

It's sad they grow so fast, when you live with them you don't notice. I was recently looking through pics of my Noah when we first got him in March and he's changed so much, he's heavy to hold now and quite muscular, and he can't curl up on my knee now, bless him. He tries though


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## caseyf6

He's getting that coltish look.    What a beautiful dog.


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## Sandpiper

cc84 said:


> I love his name, i don't know if you ever watched Grey's Anatomy but there was a Doctor in that called Preston Burke, mostly just called Burke. I don't know if that's where you got his name from but i love it.


He was named for a Dr. Burke, but not that Dr. Burke. Vet for my Beagle (in signature) was Dr. Burke. You can see that was later '50s - early '60s. I remember him. I liked him. He saved Beagle's life. So my little guy now is named for long ago vet Dr. Walter Burke. Back then Dr. Burke had a single vet practice. It was in a small building. Burke's vet now is Dr. Sandra Karasek. Her vet practice is in the same building. Only one other vet, Dr. Silverstein, in there between Dr. Burke and Dr. Karasek.


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## MamaProfCrash

Sandpiper said:


> It's Burke! Sweet little boy? Or little devil?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On June 20, he was 6.3 lbs. On July 8, he was 8 lbs. His legs have grown!!! They look almost out of proportion to his body.


He is a cutie


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## Amyshojai

What personality in that little whiskered face! Yep, and I can see the wheels a-turning between those ears, too.   Love the picture.


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## cc84

Sandpiper said:


> He was named for a Dr. Burke, but not that Dr. Burke. Vet for my Beagle (in signature) was Dr. Burke. You can see that was later '50s - early '60s. I remember him. I liked him. He saved Beagle's life. So my little guy now is named for long ago vet Dr. Walter Burke. Back then Dr. Burke had a single vet practice. It was in a small building. Burke's vet now is Dr. Sandra Karasek. Her vet practice is in the same building. Only one other vet, Dr. Silverstein, in there between Dr. Burke and Dr. Karasek.


Aww that's nice, and an honour for the vet to have your lil fella named after him.


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## Sandpiper

Burke in his new white house. Have a divider panel in it for the time being. It's a General Cage Series 200, large size. Medium may have been big enough, but I wanted to give him extra living space. He is still a growing boy. Someone commented today that his paws now look bigger?!


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## Amyshojai

Nice! Looks similar to the one we got Magic (only his is black). The divider works really well. Burke is a handsome young fellow...dunno about the paws. They look about right.


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## Jane917

What a handsome young dog! He is growing so fast! Thanks for the updates!


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## Casper Parks

Sooooo cute....


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## drenee

Wow, he has grown so much.  
deb


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## Sandpiper

Professional dog person is coming tomorrow evening.  Charge per hour.  Do I tip?  If so, how much?

I'm going to ask her about a harness for Burke.  He pulls and and suddenly moves or runs when on a leash, so often collar is yanked agains his throat (trachea).  I don't know what he'll think of that.  He does not like tags hanging off his collar.  If collar is loose enough and he can get to tags, he will chew on / bite at them.


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## MamaProfCrash

Burke would still wear his collar 24/7 but you would use the harness for walking. Caya and Cooper use the Easy Walk Harness. It puts the part that the leash clips to under the dogs head which gives you more control. The dog has to follow the leash because of the clip location. Cooper still pulls a bit, hyper excited puppy who loves walks, but Caya has learned not to pull.


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## Amyshojai

We used Easy Walk harness on Magic, too, when he got the pulling stage--as ProfCrash says, instead of being over the shoulders, it's at the front of the chest so IF he pulls, the action of the harness turns him to face you. It's self-correcting. If he pulls he goes nowhere. If he walks on loose leash, he gets to move.


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## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Burke would still wear his collar 24/7 but you would use the harness for walking. Caya and Cooper use the Easy Walk Harness. It puts the part that the leash clips to under the dogs head which gives you more control. The dog has to follow the leash because of the clip location.


Thanks, Prof. That looks like exactly what I need. Or that is what Burke needs.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> We used Easy Walk harness on Magic, too, when he got the pulling stage--as ProfCrash says, instead of being over the shoulders, it's at the front of the chest so IF he pulls, the action of the harness turns him to face you. It's self-correcting. If he pulls he goes nowhere. If he walks on loose leash, he gets to move.


So it works for you too, Amy? Was just looking at comments / reviews on Amazon. Always wondered about a harness . . . rubbing the dog's "underarms", sometimes raw. There are negative reviews due to that. It's just an individual thing with each dog? I will have to try it on Burke.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> So it works for you too, Amy? Was just looking at comments / reviews on Amazon. Always wondered about a harness . . . rubbing the dog's "underarms", sometimes raw. There are negative reviews due to that. It's just an individual thing with each dog? I will have to try it on Burke.


Dogs wear collars 24/7. The harness is worn during walks so there shouldn't be a problem with the chaffing if fit properly. I love the Premier pet products because they're designed by trainers who really understand dogs.


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## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> Professional dog person is coming tomorrow evening. Charge per hour. Do I tip? If so, how much?


I go by the rule that if the person owns the business, I don't tip. So if she owns her dog business, I wouldn't tip.



> I'm going to ask her about a harness for Burke. He pulls and and suddenly moves or runs when on a leash, so often collar is yanked agains his throat (trachea). I don't know what he'll think of that. He does not like tags hanging off his collar. If collar is loose enough and he can get to tags, he will chew on / bite at them.


From our dog obedience class, we learned the dog should wear the collar for identification and a harness for walking. We got Monday a Lupine step-in harness, made right here in the White Mountains of NH.

http://lupinepet.com/

The collars, leads, and harnesses are guaranteed, even if chewed which is a good thing, I think! They do sell them in pet stores in and around Chicago, so I am sure you could find a local dealer so you could look at styles, colors, etc.

L


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## Richardcrasta

Should I get a mosquito?

I won't.


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## Sandpiper

Leslie said:


> I go by the rule that if the person owns the business, I don't tip. So if she owns her dog business, I wouldn't tip.
> 
> http://lupinepet.com/
> 
> The collars, leads, and harnesses are guaranteed, even if chewed which is a good thing, I think! They do sell them in pet stores in and around Chicago, so I am sure you could find a local dealer so you could look at styles, colors, etc.
> 
> L


I already bought a Lupine lead at a local store, Happy Dog Barkery. Homemade treats, etc., etc.

Thanks, L. It's her business, so I won't tip.


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## Jane917

I love the looks of the Lupine harnesses! I will have to search to see if they are available in my part of the country.


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## Jane917

According to the Lupine website locator, both my vet and my groomer carry the products! How cool is that? I will have the groomer fit Jack for a new harness next time he is in.


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## cc84

Sorry to hijack your thread Sandpiper, but if anyone has any advice on toilet training i'd be grateful. My dog is 7 months old on Tuesday and we have been trying to train him to go outside. We moved his paper to nearer the outside door and he's been doing his number 2's outside during the day, with a few accident's on an evening. But not his number 1's. And sometimes he has accidents in the room where his paper used to be. He doesn't let us know when he wants to do his business so we are following him around ready to open the door incase he crouches lol. 

I hear toy dogs were harder to train so any advice is appreciated. He does get praised when he does it outside also.


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## Amyshojai

My standard potty training advice is here:
http://puppies.about.com/od/Training/a/Potty-Training-Puppies.htm

Toy dogs can be tougher to train, yes. Part of what might be an issue is the dog already associates that spot with "pee here" so you need to change the association.

Put the food bowl on top of the favorite indoor pee spot.  That not only makes it an unattractive place to eliminate, it associates the place with something completely different. Other tips in the article like...PAY the dog for emptying the bladder in the right spot. Good luck!


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## cc84

Thank you very much Amy, i'm going to read through the link and try everything


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## Leslie

Jane917 said:


> According to the Lupine website locator, both my vet and my groomer carry the products! How cool is that? I will have the groomer fit Jack for a new harness next time he is in.


We got Monday the Wild West collar, harness and lead. Like the dog in the picture, the red looks very nice against her black coat.

http://lupinepet.com/medium-dogs/wild-west-3/wild-west-2

L


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## MamaProfCrash

They have purple harnesses and Leads, I like that. The puppies might get a birthday gift on my birthday


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## Jane917

Leslie said:


> We got Monday the Wild West collar, harness and lead. Like the dog in the picture, the red looks very nice against her black coat.
> 
> http://lupinepet.com/medium-dogs/wild-west-3/wild-west-2
> 
> L


Very classy! However, Jack and Kona don't look good in red.  I think I will go blue. We are going away for a few days for some island living, so I won't really think about it again until we get back. j


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## Leslie

ProfCrash said:


> They have purple harnesses and Leads, I like that. The puppies might get a birthday gift on my birthday


The purple one is nice. I almost picked that. I had a hard time deciding...I liked most of them, except the pink. The pink by itself was okay, I just don't like pink on Monday. The collar she came with from her first family (the folks who surrendered her to Bonnie) was pink patent leather with rhinestones, so pink has a bad association for me.

L


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## Jane917

Leslie said:


> The purple one is nice. I almost picked that. I had a hard time deciding...I liked most of them, except the pink. The pink by itself was okay, I just don't like pink on Monday. The collar she came with from her first family (the folks who surrendered her to Bonnie) was pink patent leather with rhinestones, so pink has a bad association for me.
> 
> L


   

Glad you got the opportunity to re-accessorize!


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## Amyshojai

Magic-Dawg doesn't care about fashion, but I do. And the cat definitely does--so Seren-kitty's leash/harness match her blue eyes.


----------



## Deb G

I'm wondering if anyone has heard of or used the " Neater feeder" for feeding their dogs and cats? I'm tired of mopping up water and picking up kibble!

http://www.amazon.com/Neater-Feeder-Dogs-Small-Bronze/dp/B002ENRQQ2/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1310950682&sr=1-2]http://www.amazon.com/Neater-Feeder-Dogs-Small-Bronze/dp/B002ENRQQ2/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1310950682&sr=1-2]http://www.amazon.com/Neater-Feeder-Dogs-Small-Bronze/dp/B002ENRQQ2/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1310950682&sr=1-2

I'd loveto hear what others have done! And hopefully I haven't hi-jacked this thread but have added to it!


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm anxious to try the Easy Walk Harness, but Burke often takes leash in his mouth.  Sometimes then he wants a game of tug.  NO.  With the leash clipped to ring on his chest (so in front of him), seems like that would be especially easy for him to take in his mouth.  Once in a while he takes me for a walk . . . he has leash in his mouth and trots very neatly at a steady pace in front of me.  Cute, but not what he should do.


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## Tatiana

Sandpiper said:


> I already bought a Lupine lead at a local store, Happy Dog Barkery. Homemade treats, etc., etc.


We just got Lupine leads, and collars to sell in the store two weeks ago. They also sent us a box of key chains we can sell to customers. I love Lupine!


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## caseyf6

Sandpiper said:


> I'm anxious to try the Easy Walk Harness, but Burke often takes leash in his mouth. Sometimes then he wants a game of tug. NO. With the leash clipped to ring on his chest (so in front of him), seems like that would be especially easy for him to take in his mouth. Once in a while he takes me for a walk . . . he has leash in his mouth and trots very neatly at a steady pace in front of me. Cute, but not what he should do.


Curious question-- if he doesn't tug on it, and he's walking well, why does it matter if he holds the leash?


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## Sandpiper

With regards to poo bags, including dirty diaper bags, is it my imagination or does it make a difference with regard to smell if bags include baking soda or not?  If bags are scented but without baking soda, seem to get that other "aroma" purdy quickly.


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## Sandpiper

caseyf6 said:


> Curious question-- if he doesn't tug on it, and he's walking well, why does it matter if he holds the leash?


If he did that most of the time, it would be easy to walk him. It wouldn't matter, but wouldn't be proper walk on a leash. He doesn't do that too often. When the trainer was here Monday evening she brought an Easy Walk to try on him. It works! Burke is currently a tweener size -- petite/small. Mine is coming today from Amazon.


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## Amyshojai

I went through 2 sizes of Easy Walk as Magic grew up. They're pricy but worth it when they work! And Magic doesn't need it any more, either. These past 3 weeks (I hurt my back) he's KNOWN without me telling him and refrained from any extra pulling even though I hobbled around after him. Good boy!


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## MamaProfCrash

We have toyed with the idea of getting a diaper pail for the dogs poop bags. My aunt tells us that we should just cut the bags open and empty them into the toilet so that the poo does not end up in the landfill. She has a point and yet I have found myself being too lazy to do that.


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## Amyshojai

Since we also have a cat, I used the empty litter bucket containers and dumped the doggy do-bags in those.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> I went through 2 sizes of Easy Walk as Magic grew up. They're pricy but worth it when they work! And Magic doesn't need it any more, either. These past 3 weeks (I hurt my back) he's KNOWN without me telling him and refrained from any extra pulling even though I hobbled around after him. Good boy!


Burke is currently petite/small size. Expect he will grow into small (no larger). I wondered if they ever became good with just collar in the future. Some do, some don't?


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Burke is currently petite/small size. Expect he will grow into small (no larger). I wondered if they ever became good with just collar in the future. Some do, some don't?


Yes, they do. Comes with time, and rewarding the no-pull behavior with praise and/or whatever else floats Burke's puppy boat. *s*


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## Sandpiper

Got the harness.  Any tips or suggestions for fitting it on a dog who's not thrilled.  Just me here.  Don't want to have to go for help if I don't have to.  When trainer was here the other night, she put her "sample harness" on with shoulder strap open by pulling forelegs through "loop" made by closed belly strap and chest strap.  


ETA:  Got it on him.  But is it adjusted correctly?  The girth is fitted pretty snugly around him.  If not, dog could work his shoulders out.  Does placement on dog of connector rings holding shoulder and belly straps together matter a lot?  Instructions say rings should be above and behind dog's shoulders.  Have a feeling I need to snug up chest strap a little.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Got the harness. Any tips or suggestions for fitting it on a dog who's not thrilled. Just me here. Don't want to have to go for help if I don't have to. When trainer was here the other night, she put her "sample harness" on with shoulder strap open by pulling forelegs through "loop" made by closed belly strap and chest strap.
> 
> ETA: Got it on him. But is it adjusted correctly? The girth is fitted pretty snugly around him. If not, dog could work his shoulders out. Does placement on dog of connector rings holding shoulder and belly straps together matter a lot? Instructions say rings should be above and behind dog's shoulders. Have a feeling I need to snug up chest strap a little.


Yes, the key is having a snug fit on the girth strap. You'll need to play with it a bit to get the right fit, but once it's set, easy to get on and off with the clip-fasteners.


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## Sandpiper

Another question:  What kind of brush should I use on Burke?  Mostly their coat, at least adult coats, need stripping.  But what kind of general purpose brush?  I got a little slicker brush.  He is NOT thrilled about it.  The other night the trainer was able to run it on his back a little.  And now I have -- a little.  A better type of brush to use?  He's losing very fine hair.  Is that puppy hair?

And what info should go on I.D. tag?  Burke is microchipped.  Right now have I.D. tag with just his name and my phone number.  Someone said more info.  What?


----------



## Jane917

Sandpiper said:


> And what info should go on I.D. tag? Burke is microchipped. Right now have I.D. tag with just his name and my phone number. Someone said more info. What?


Jack and Kona are both microchipped. Their ID tags have their name and our home and cell phone numbers. Cell phone is important. If we are on a trip and they get lost, the home phone will not do any good.


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## CaitLondon

Sandpiper said:


> There is a certain breed I want. Border Terrier. I had one 40 years ago. No dog since. Beagles and Borders -- my favs. (Borders book store also favorite. )


I'm looking at dogs, too. With Joplin's tornado, a lot of the breeders had to place their dogs into adoption, or anyone who just couldn't manage them now. I called about a puggle, a pug/beagle mix designer breed. Family wants to give me a lab, which I love, but they require more exercise than I can manage. I'm still traveling a lot and sedentary (writing a lot now), so after this last extended trip and settling into fall, I'm looking again.

Whatever dog I get, it has to get along w/my daughter's as she's dogsitting when I'm traveling. Her Daisy, alias "the head bitch" has to like my dog, whatever.


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## MamaProfCrash

I have been toying with getting a tag with the microchip number on it or just reading "I have a micro chip" so that anyone who finds him knows that the chip is there.

Treats help with grooming. Put one in your hand and leave enough exposed so that Burke can nibble but not walk away with it. While he is standing and being brushed  he gets to nibble and you say "Good boy" Good Burke" "Good brush"


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## Sandpiper

General type of brush? Maybe slicker with wire bristles isn't the best for him to get used to.

I got the book The Dog Selector by David Alderton some time ago at Borders. It's not comprehensive (not every possible breed), but good info on breeds included.


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## MamaProfCrash

Kong has a brush that works well. You get it a little bit wet and brush in circles. It works well on removing surface hair and does not feel wirey.


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## Amyshojai

I love The Dog Selector book, and reviewed it on the puppies.about.com site. For folks choosing a new dog, it's a great resource to hit the high points of pros/cons and challenges/delights of each breed.

Microchips are great--but yes, folks have to know it's there so a tag that has your cell phone number and name with an alert the pet has a chip is ideal. Not really needed to have the microchip number on the tag, I don't think, because there's no way a regular person could easily access that number anyway.

VITAL to keep your info updated in the microchip data base, though. Doesn't help if you've moved and the old info is revealed when your lost dog is scanned...

To get the new pup used to grooming, why not just get a plain old bristle brush or even a baby (soft) brush? Make it pleasant, and fun, start with the "sweet spots" he likes having rubbed (chest, base of tail) and finish with those. And yes, treats/praise/toys to go along with it.


----------



## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Kong has a brush that works well. You get it a little bit wet and brush in circles. It works well on removing surface hair and does not feel wirey.


Prof, thanks. I am going to try that Kong brush. A lot of positive reviews on Amazon. Hope Burke enjoys it and I can get some of that very fine hair out of him.


----------



## candyisdandy

CaitLondon said:


> I'm looking at dogs, too. With Joplin's tornado, a lot of the breeders had to place their dogs into adoption, or anyone who just couldn't manage them now. I called about a puggle, a pug/beagle mix designer breed. Family wants to give me a lab, which I love, but they require more exercise than I can manage. I'm still traveling a lot and sedentary (writing a lot now), so after this last extended trip and settling into fall, I'm looking again.
> 
> Whatever dog I get, it has to get along w/my daughter's as she's dogsitting when I'm traveling. Her Daisy, alias "the head bitch" has to like my dog, whatever.


If you are looking for a sedentary dog, don't get a puggle! We have one, 10 months old, and she is wild. She runs around our backyard or at the dog park in circles like a greyhound and she is like lightening. When she takes off and we have to try and catch her, we don't have a prayer - it's like trying to catch a greased pig. She needs a lot of exercise (way more than we would have wanted), and is fine when she gets it, but very naughty when she doesn't. On the plus side, she has a very sweet disposition, loves people, and is very friendly. She is also very submissive to other dogs and always drops down and goes belly up when someone comes over to give her a sniff at the dog park. I'm hoping that she settles down a bit when she gets a little older, because she is quite a handful right now. Good look with your search!


----------



## Amyshojai

I'm always a bit leery of the so-called "designer dog" breeds (they used to be MUTTS! LOL!). They idea of hybrid vigor has hyped these guys out the wazoo, and turned a marketing trick into a fad that does no favors to the dogs.

With very few exceptions (labradoodle is one, they've been around long enough to be pretty predictable), designer dogs are kind of a luck of the draw. You can get the very best dog in the world that combines the best of all the breed combos--or you can get a genetic disaster with the worst of the parent breeds. Or somewhere in the middle.

Beagles run and live through their nose. Pugs were bred to be more sedate companion lap dogs. Reputable breeders put dogs together for more than what the pups might look like. *sigh* I'm sure your Puggle will settle down with maturity but that urge to run and hunt probably goes bone-deep.


----------



## candyisdandy

Amyshojai said:


> Beagles run and live through their nose. Pugs were bred to be more sedate companion lap dogs. Reputable breeders put dogs together for more than what the pups might look like. *sigh* I'm sure your Puggle will settle down with maturity but that urge to run and hunt probably goes bone-deep.


Yes, we had a beagle when I was a kid, and we could never leave our gate open or she would be gone. This little Puggle's saving grace is that she is very cute and more importantly, really good and patient with our kids (7 & 5). I keep saying, "One day she will be a really good dog"!


----------



## Amyshojai

Aha...you know how sweet Beagles are, too.    I think they make puppies cute so we're patient and fall in love with 'em, so we'll put up with the antics.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Aha...you know how sweet Beagles are, too.  I think they make puppies cute so we're patient and fall in love with 'em, so we'll put up with the antics.


Beagle pups are the cutest! Ours could never run free. We didn't have a fenced yard. So ours was hooked on a chain that ran on a wire strung between the house and garage. This was late '50s - early '60s. When he occasionally got free we put out the word to the kids in the neighborhood and they'd join the hunt looking for him.

Yes, they are the sweetest. Their sweet disposition gets them in trouble. Don't read if you don't want to shed a tear or two or three or more.



Spoiler



They're often preferred for testing / experimentation because of their sweet disposition and size.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

Beagles are very active dogs.  They also have a "hound" smell and they are barkers (they are breed to tree, so no surprise).  I love hound dogs, but I was raised around hunting dogs (I have an uncle who breeds and hunts w/ **** dogs and if I had the room, we'd have one).  We currently have a pug.  She is stupid, ugly, makes funny noises and thinks she's human.  She's also great w/ my 2 yr old and is willing to put up w/ her "loving".  I've caught DD sitting on Gizmo the Wonder Pug's (side note:  Gizmo the Wonder Pug is so named b/c she's so stupid I wonder how she's still alive) HEAD.  When G get's too much love, she hides for a while and then is ready to go on playing.  

As for pulling.  When we had our husky, we tried to teach her not to pull by simply stopping whenever she pulled until he gave us slack, then we would continue.  We also bought a harness that was an anti pulling leash..


----------



## Sandpiper

Dogs are individuals.  Our Beagle wasn't a barker.


----------



## Amyshojai

Wow, that was nice to have a quiet beagle (I'd usually say that's an oxymoron, LOL!). Beagles were bred to bark, sniff and run. Yep, sure proves they are individuals.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

Sandpiper said:


> Dogs are individuals. Our Beagle wasn't a barker.


We have two beagles living next door - one on each side of us. One barks incessantly; the other almost never.

P.S. The new little guy is sooooo cute, Sandpiper! Does he still have the puppy bologna breath? I miss that.


----------



## Jane917

Alle Meine Entchen said:


> We currently have a pug. She is stupid, ugly, makes funny noises and thinks she's human. She's also great w/ my 2 yr old and is willing to put up w/ her "loving".


   Your description of your pug almost describes our Jack, the Cavalier King Charles, though of course he is not ugly! He makes the same reverse sneezing sounds I am sure your pug makes. He definately does not think he is a dog.

We once had an English bulldog when the kids were little. He was so laid back there were times we thought he was dead. I caught the kids brushing his teeth, and he did not even wake up.

I grew up with a beagle. I would not say he barked, but he howled. He would eat his way out of the fenced yard. He also ate the clothes off the clothesline.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

Jane917 said:


> Your description of your pug almost describes our Jack, the Cavalier King Charles, though of course he is not ugly! He makes the same reverse sneezing sounds I am sure your pug makes. He definately does not think he is a dog.


Gizmo is named b/c she makes alien sounds. We had friends stay the week w/ us last month and I warned them that Gizmo makes odd noises (seriously, I have never heard a dog or any animal make noises like this). The next morning, the wife looked @ me and said something along the lines of, "I know why you named the dog Gizmo, she makes some weird noises". As for Gizmos' looks, well, I'm not a fan of pugs, but I'm a fan of the personality. She's a very mellow dumb dog.


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> Dogs are individuals. Our Beagle wasn't a barker.


Absolutely. Breed descriptions are generalities. Mostly true, but not always. I've owned many dogs over the years, and our beagle is the quietest and calmest of them all. My mom's beagle is also very calm and lazy. She barks (bays) more than my beagle, but overall I'd still classify her as a quiet dog.


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## candyisdandy

Alle Meine Entchen said:


> Beagles are very active dogs. They also have a "hound" smell and they are barkers (they are breed to tree, so no surprise). I love hound dogs, but I was raised around hunting dogs (I have an uncle who breeds and hunts w/ **** dogs and if I had the room, we'd have one). We currently have a pug. She is stupid, ugly, makes funny noises and thinks she's human. She's also great w/ my 2 yr old and is willing to put up w/ her "loving". I've caught DD sitting on Gizmo the Wonder Pug's (side note: Gizmo the Wonder Pug is so named b/c she's so stupid I wonder how she's still alive) HEAD. When G get's too much love, she hides for a while and then is ready to go on playing.
> 
> As for pulling. When we had our husky, we tried to teach her not to pull by simply stopping whenever she pulled until he gave us slack, then we would continue. We also bought a harness that was an anti pulling leash..


Lol - this description of Gizmo gave me a laugh! I would say our Puggle definitely has the traits of both - she sniffs/takes off, barks/bays/howls but is very sweet, like a beagle but she has a slight curl to her tail and when she's been pulling too hard on her leash (which is always), she snorts and wheezes like a pug. She also has the beautiful, soft beagle ears that our whole family loves to stroke.

For those who have/had beagles, any suggestions to control the barking? It's not really random barking, she only typically does it when we go away from her, i.e. put her in her crate or go upstairs and leave her downstairs.


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## Amyshojai

Here's an article on teaching bark limits. Works better with some dogs than others. *s* Hope it helps

http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Puppy-Barking.htm


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## MamaProfCrash

We are thinking of the citronella collar for Caya and Cooper on walks. See if we can't tone down the barking and the like.


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> We are thinking of the citronella collar for Caya and Cooper on walks. See if we can't tone down the barking and the like.


The citronella collars (and "tone" collars) can help--my mom used a tone collar with her sheltie. Just don't go the "shock" collar route which can make it worse (besides the potential for hurting the dog and your relationship...)


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## Sandpiper

I don't know if the Easy Walk Harness works with Burke?  I have chest strap made as short as it can.  When I walk with him in it he pulls, lunges, FRAPs, so chest strap adjusters slide and the strap becomes longer.  Burke doesn't like anything including tags hanging on his chest.  He will bite at them if he can get to 'em.  So as harness chest strap stretches longer, he's able to bite it.  Now what?

When I got him from breeder, she had lightweight slider collar on him with plastic microchip tag hanging from it.  He chewed that tag.  Could he be unhappy with tags because one was hanging from his collar when he was so young?


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I don't know if the Easy Walk Harness works with Burke? I have chest strap made as short as it can. When I walk with him in it he pulls, lunges, FRAPs, so chest strap adjusters slide and the strap becomes longer. Burke doesn't like anything including tags hanging on his chest. He will bite at them if he can get to 'em. So as harness chest strap stretches longer, he's able to bite it. Now what?
> 
> When I got him from breeder, she had lightweight slider collar on him with plastic microchip tag hanging from it. He chewed that tag. Could he be unhappy with tags because one was hanging from his collar when he was so young?


Once adjusted he shouldn't be able to pull the strap longer--I'm surprised it's slipping like that.

Something that worked with Magic (he's MUCH bigger so it took some effort!), when he pulled, I immediately turned 180 and walked the other way. Soon as he lunged ahead and pulled, another 180 change. At one point, we walked in circles for about 10 minutes until he finally stopped pulling and we walked loose-leash for 20 feet or so--and I praised and gave him a reward of going OFF the leash. *shrug*

Of course Burke is a terrier (translation: stubborn, tenacious, etc). Terriers take some convincing.


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## PatrickWalts

I would recommend against buying a dog from a pet store.  They generally come from puppy mills, and regardless of what info you're given about their history, you can't know for sure.  I'd go with either a reputable AKC certified breeder, or, for a cheaper option than either a store or a breeder, get a rescue dog.  All the rescue dogs I've ever had have been real sweethearts who were happy to finally have a good home.  And you can find plenty of breed-specific rescues, too.  I've had two pugs from a local pug rescue, and they're both awesome.  Now, the one in my avatar, Emily, she's a former show dog, so she's a little diva brat, lol.


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## MamaProfCrash

You might need to take Burke and the harness to a Pet Smart and ask them to help you fit it.


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## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> I don't know if the Easy Walk Harness works with Burke? I have chest strap made as short as it can. When I walk with him in it he pulls, lunges, FRAPs, so chest strap adjusters slide and the strap becomes longer. Burke doesn't like anything including tags hanging on his chest. He will bite at them if he can get to 'em. So as harness chest strap stretches longer, he's able to bite it. Now what?
> 
> When I got him from breeder, she had lightweight slider collar on him with plastic microchip tag hanging from it. He chewed that tag. Could he be unhappy with tags because one was hanging from his collar when he was so young?


I don't like the Easy Walk harnesses at all. I've found very few dogs that the EW fits correctly and doesn't loosen up as you describe.


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## MamaProfCrash

We have two harnesses and neither loosen like that. We also took them to Pet Smart and had one of the dog trainers help us fit the harness to both dogs properly.


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## Jane917

I could start a new thread, but there are so many experienced pet owners here, I would like to throw out a new question. Today, until midnight, Petco Online has everything at 20% off. I plan to get Kona the brittany a feeding and water bowl that is supposed to slow down the rate of eating and drinking. I am also thinking of getting the nail grinding tool for Jack's nails, which can get pretty sharp. It costs almost $50, so I want to make sure I am getting the right thing. Here is the Petco link:

http://www.petco.com/product/111879/Andis-AGP-Super-2-Speed-Detachable-Blade-Animal-Clipper.aspx?CoreCat=MM_DogSupplies_Grooming

Any comments? Thanks.


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## Pawz4me

The link takes me to a hair clipper, not a nail grinder?

I use a rechargeable Dremel for nail grinding.  I think it's called a Mini-Mite, and it costs around $20 at Walmart.  Plenty powerful enough to do my Brittany's nails, and he's big for a Britt.


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## Sandpiper

That takes me to Petco clipper page.  Burke's breeder uses a Dremel on her dogs' nails.


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## Jane917

Pawz4me said:


> The link takes me to a hair clipper, not a nail grinder?
> 
> I use a rechargeable Dremel for nail grinding. I think it's called a Mini-Mite, and it costs around $20 at Walmart. Plenty powerful enough to do my Brittany's nails, and he's big for a Britt.


Sorry for the wrong link. This should be the right one http://www.petco.com/product/113956/Andis-Nail-Pro-Pet-Nail-Grinder.aspx but I think I will check out Walmart. Thanks for the advice.


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## Sandpiper

Been out on 2 - 3 walks with Burke on Easy Walk Harness.  Very good.  Pretty much pleasure walking him now -- comparatively.  Can only get better.

I think he is learning "down" (lay down, not off).

He was FRAPping in my condo this morning . . . zoom, zoom, zoom.  I pointed into the open wire crate.  He went in.  Surprise -- door closed behind him!!

The other day he was chewing on carpet in his wire crate.  He had good chew toy in with him.  I said loud sharp NO.  Finger up and I stared at him.  We stared each other in the eyes for about a minute.  He didn't move, but HE eventually turned his head.  He knew he'd done wrong.  I won!


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## PatrickWalts

Harnesses are a must with my dogs.  Pugs don't really have any necks to speak of, and they'll slip their little monkey heads right out of a collar if you try to walk them that way.


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## Amyshojai

Yes, those Pugs are like little "no neck" wrestlers, LOL! They also can have problems with collapsed windpipes or eye prolapse, I think, so it's best not to put pressure on the throat.


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## Sandpiper

Is it possible?  Today I got and hung jingle bells from my doorknob.  I showed them to Burke and said an excited "outside" and we went out and he did his biz.  We were in for 2 - 3 hours.  I don't exactly remember if I was showing him again or whether he then nosed at the bells more himself.  Not much later he was making a puddle inside.  Could he have caught on to ringing the bells after being shown just once??


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## Amyshojai

Some dogs are very quick to associate "cause/effect." My one caution--you'll have to take care he doesn't "cry wolf" just to ring the bell and get you to take him out to play, LOL! But yes, one time showing might have allowed him to connect the furry dots. I suspect though that it would take 3-4 with a very specific and immediate "effect"  for him to truly get it and repeat consistently. This might have been an accident (pun intended!) of him ringing the bell.

You'll have to be alert to him ringing the bell, and you IMMEDIATELY doing the "outside" happy voice (because it will be too long for the associating sometimes for you to jump up run across the room and open the door). You'll bridge this with your voice, which signals the open door. So it's bell+voice=open door. Basically Burke learns that HE can train YOU to open the door.


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## John Dorian

Training a dog to train you to do something huh? Interesting.


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## MamaProfCrash

My dogs have me very well trained.


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## Amyshojai

John, the whole key to training dogs, cats (or kids I suspect) is to let 'em think they're in control and it's their idea. If you teach dogs they can turn you into a treat or toy dispenser by acting in X-way, they'll turn themselves inside out to figure out how to get you to give 'em the treat. Works a whole lot better than punishing for bad behavior because you don't have to first teach the dog what they did bad...you just reward good behavior and watch the critter become a joyful "watch me SIT, watch me COME watch me BEG watch me watch me reward me!" Lovely thing to see.


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## Sandpiper

It worked for me today.  I should have done this from the start.  I started seriously today . . . and he is doing it.  Have to go through 3 doors to actually get outside.  (Remember, I'm in a 2nd floor condo.)  Go through that 3rd door.  "Hurry up."  Starting just today, it's . . . pee, poo.  All done.  Almost that fast.  Burke's getting a treat right after pooing did the trick.  Doing his bizzes FAST is good on the rainy days.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Sandpiper said:


> It worked for me today. I should have done this from the start. I started seriously today . . . and he is doing it. Have to go through 3 doors to actually get outside. (Remember, I'm in a 2nd floor condo.) Go through that 3rd door. "Hurry up." Starting just today, it's . . . p*ss, putt. All done. Almost that fast. Burke's getting a treat right after putting did the trick. *Doing his bizzes FAST is good on the rainy days.*


I find it's good on any day, but rainy days esp so


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## Amyshojai

Smart lil' dickens ain't he! But you're training right, too. Good communication makes all the difference.


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## Deb G

For those that' don't catch on quite so fast with Bell training.  

1.  Hang the bell and every time you take the dog outside, ring it and say "outside". (and of course, continue the praise routine when they do their business outside).
2.  After a few days of that, when the dog isn't looking, put a little peanut butter on the bell, then when they lick the peanut butter and the bell rings, put them right outside.  

You'll find that they'll start ringing the bell alot to get you to get up to take them outside, kind of testing you to see if it really works - "you mean if I ring this, you'll let me outside?"  

It's worked every time for us!


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## Amyshojai

Peanut butter--the magical fruit!


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## Sandpiper

Deb G said:


> For those that' don't catch on quite so fast with Bell training.
> 
> 1. Hang the bell and every time you take the dog outside, ring it and say "outside". (and of course, continue the praise routine when they do their business outside).
> 2. After a few days of that, when the dog isn't looking, put a little peanut butter on the bell, then when they lick the peanut butter and the bell rings, put them right outside.
> 
> You'll find that they'll start ringing the bell alot to get you to get up to take them outside, kind of testing you to see if it really works - "you mean if I ring this, you'll let me outside?"
> 
> It's worked every time for us!


But then as Amy said upthread, aren't they, for the most part, "crying wolf" when they ring the bell? Ring it to go outside when it's not really necessary? Burke is kinda catching on to the idea. When we go out I kinda point the bells out to him and he noses them on his own then. Treat and praise. Then we go out right away. But I don't think he totally understands though that that is how to get out when he needs to. Piddled inside this evening. I think I am having a little housebreaking problem with him.


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## Deb G

Our dogs are potty trained so they ring the bell to do their business. But since we have a fenced in yard they also ring it if they just want to hang outside. That may not be possible for everyone. 

We've made sure not to let them cry wolf. The bell means outside, no matter what!!  But if it's really nasty we have been known to bring them back in really quick.


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## Sandpiper

Deb G said:


> Our dogs are potty trained so they ring the bell to do their business. But since we have a fenced in yard they also ring it if they just want to hang outside. That may not be possible for everyone.


I'm in a 2nd floor condo = through 3 doors and down a flight of stairs to go out on a leash.


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## MamaProfCrash

I would say that accidents are very normal. Caya and Cooper both had at least one accident a week in the house when we were training them. Cooper had one a day his first few weeks. His foster home let his litter pee and poop where ever they were in the house so it took him a while to catch on. I would say they were 6-7 months old when the accidents started to decline. We still have an occasional accident (two nights ago in the middle of the night) but they go outside 99% of the time.


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## Amyshojai

At Burke's age it's often 2 paw-steps forward, 1 back in the house training dept. Even once they "get it" there's a bit of a learning curve ("Oh, you mean ALL the time? Even at night? even when it rains? Even when ...")

You may be able to cut down the "cry wolf" potential by (as Deb G says)1)  ALWAYS responding to the bell ring to take Burke out to reinforce that notion, but 2) then giving your poo/pee command and rewarding with treat/toy for productivity, and 3)bringing inside immediately & crating if Burke messes around/plays instead of getting down to biz. The play should be a 2ndary reward he gets after eliminating. And if it's nasty weather, the play can take place back inside the house, too.

Does that help?


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## unitbit

So after one year of being in our new house, and one year of debating, we finally went out an adopted a new dog!  We got lucky too, she was a puppy lab mix and she is just adorable!  So we'll see how this goes!


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## Sandpiper

Yes, thanks, Amy.  He's about 3.5 months now.  Really kind of early to be fully or, at least, reliably housebroken?  When he is, is he likely to tell me when he needs to go out or will I just take him out on a schedule.  Older couple down the hall moved in with an older housebroken Finish Spitz (now deceased).  Good dog.  Have to ask what the dog did -- ask or schedule.


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## Amyshojai

unitbit said:


> So after one year of being in our new house, and one year of debating, we finally went out an adopted a new dog! We got lucky too, she was a puppy lab mix and she is just adorable! So we'll see how this goes!


Congratulations! Pictures, we want PICTURES!


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Yes, thanks, Amy. He's about 3.5 months now. Really kind of early to be fully or, at least, reliably housebroken? When he is, is he likely to tell me when he needs to go out or will I just take him out on a schedule. Older couple down the hall moved in with an older housebroken Finish Spitz (now deceased). Good dog. Have to ask what the dog did -- ask or schedule.


It usually is a combo of "ask" and "schedule." For instance, Magic at 4 years can "hold it" for 8+ hours but we don't want to make him. So he goes out first thing in the morning, last thing at night, and I generally take him on breaks throughout the day when I need a break (11, after lunch, etc). He also will "ask" when he really needs a break--if he's drunk lots of water following a Frisbee session, for instance, he'll need a more frequent break.

Dogs usually become pretty reliable by about 6-8 months of age. Some of the "asking" to go out may also be due to Burke simply following routine and not that he's crossing furry legs, LOL!


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## MamaProfCrash

Caya tells us when she needs to go but Cooper does not. Cooper always goes out when Caya goes out and when we go out. We go out a lot to pick peppers, tomatoes, use the hot tub, grill ect... In the winter we make sure to let them out every few hours or whenever Caya whines.

Caya has become increasingly vocal since we got Cooper. She barks at him to play, whines to play with us, whines when we don't let her up on the bed, and whines to go out and play. It has been an interesting change. Normally it is not problematic but she has been very vocal at 6:30 in the morning the last few weeks which neither of us are thrilled with.


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Dogs usually become pretty reliable by about 6-8 months of age. Some of the "asking" to go out may also be due to Burke simply following routine and not that he's crossing furry legs, LOL!


Burke isn't doing any asking as yet. Yesterday when he piddled inside, I didn't notice any signals that it was going to happen??

I do have the bells hanging from the knob. He already knows to nose the bells with just about no urging from me when the leash is on, I tell him we're going OUTSIDE, and we're at the door. But I don't think he's "connected the dots" yet.


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## Sandpiper

Someone upthread mentioned the Kong ZoomGroom brush.  Got one today.  With first stroke, Burke was a lump.  In other words, it's like the best massage to him.  Aaaaaaah.  Instructions say to use it in a circular motion.  I did that too.  But after I was brushing a while, looked at the brush.  Virtually no hair in it.  Oh well, feels good to him.  Then I took him off my lap.  All the hair was on me!  Does take hair off the dog.   

So any recommendations for hair / lint removal from clothing, etc.?  One of the best things if you can keep a supply is plastic Fed Ex bill envelopes.


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## Amyshojai

LOL! Zoom Grooms rule. Getting hair off clothes, I've always just used a roll of masking tape wrapped sticky-side out around my hand. Heloise (hints from...) suggests a shower "scrunchie" and plain plastic gloves also will rub it off in lumps.


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## MamaProfCrash

Wet the Zoom down before you use it, the fur will stay on the brush much better.


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## Sandpiper

Burke does become very much a lap dog in the evening -- especially if he's had an active day.


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## Sandpiper

Now what?  Burke's definitely not housebroken.  He was out 30 - 45 minutes ago and did long pee.  Felt safe letting him loose in here after.  Out of the blue, I see him peeing on his bed.  I got him a nice LL Bean bed.  He took to it right away.  He has peed on it 2 - 3 times before.  I always sop up pee and spray heavily with Nature's Miracle.  Yesterday I washed the cover and sprayed insert (not washable!) with Nature's Miracle.  Then rubbed that with paper towel and let air dry.  So just now he was peeing on his bed.  Is it now permanently a "hot spot" and no longer usable?


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## Amyshojai

Nature's Miracle has been around a long time but it's not really my first choice. My standard advice (with some product recommendations) for such things:
http://puppies.about.com/od/OwnerPuppyCare/a/Puppy-Potty-Accidents.htm

I'd suggest you take the bed apart, cover the insert with a plastic garbage bag, and put the cover back on. That way it SHOULD reduce the scent of the insert, and also protect from future "insults."


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## Sandpiper

What is your first choice?  One of the choices on that page is Petastic: "formerly known as Nature's Miracle".


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Here's my funny dog housebreaking story. My mom was a wiz @ dog training. She was usually able to get a dog housebroken in record time. So when my parents brought home Sammy Joe (a choc lab), they thought it wouldn't be too hard to housebreak her since she was older (and had a bigger bladder) and labs are really smart people pleasing dogs. They didn't count on the fact that Sammy Joe had spent the 1st 6 months of her life running around outside (the family was going to try breeding labs, but Sammy's litter got a disease and by the time all 13 puppies were cleared, they were too old to sell, so the family just let them run around in their big fenced in yard and gave them away). So it took my mom longer than usual to teach Sammy Joe to go outside instead of where ever the urge strikes. She finally thinks she has the dog trained and since it was a big battle, she's proud of it. My cousin and his wife come over and mom is talking about the house, the kids, the dog and just general catch up chit chat. The dog walks by and mom proudly announces, "I've finally gotten Sammy Joe house broken". Right around the time mom says "Sammy Joe", the dog squats down and pees the biggest puddle I've ever seen (right by cousin and his wife). Mom was so embarrassed. I also think that's the last time Sammy messed in the house until she got old (she lived to about 13 yrs)


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> What is your first choice? One of the choices on that page is Petastic: "formerly known as Nature's Miracle".


I like Anti-Icky-Poo. *s* And Urine-Off also is great.


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## caseyf6

Alle, that is totally hilarious.  Like bragging about a kid's good manners before they start acting like total brats.


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## Sandpiper

Just got fourth bag of Solid Gold puppy chow for Burke.  Breeder started him on Solid Gold.  That's all he's had.  Good to stay with one food or is occasional change good?  Change every few bags?  What?  Puppy food until one year?  He's 3.5 months and gets three meals per day.  Go to two meals at four months?  When two meals -- app. what times during the day?


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## Amyshojai

You can stick with the same food. Many pups get upset tummies if you change foods too abruptly, and a gradual changes can take up to a couple of weeks. So if Burke does well on this food I wouldn't mess with success. Puppy food for the first year, yes. You could probably go to 2 meals a day by age 6 months. Here's an article with general recommendations but there'll be some differences between breeds.

http://puppies.about.com/od/OwnerPuppyCare/a/Puppy-Food-Feeding-Schedule.htm


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## Sandpiper

Happy day!  Yesterday was referred to another more local dog grooming place by someone in an Ace Hardware store.  "Ace is the place with the helpful hardware man."  They SURE are.  A woman in this case.  Groomer doesn't have his own web site.  But all the sites with comments have EXCELLENT reviews!    Check it out soon.

I used the Kong Zoom Groom brush on Burke again last night.  First stroke and he just melts.


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## tessa

We fed Daisy (standard poodle) puppy food till about a year old, than we switched her to adult large dry food it came in 3 different flavors so each day its different.   I let her out every 2 hours at first than she told us when she wanted out by standing by the door.

We started her out with 3 meals a day down to bowl always fill.

Daisy is about 55 lbs she's a big girl not fat just tall her whole litter was big her older brother standing on hing legs was as tall as me (5'2")

I've had poodles since I was 16 (Daisy is my 4th) and she is by far the smartest of them all.

tessa


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## Sandpiper

Yesterday Burke weighed in at 10.3 lbs, 4 lbs more than when I took him for his first vet visit on June 20. He's no longer the little guy I brought home. Sometimes he looks big to me and other times still small. His legs have gotten waaaay long. App. 4 - 5 more lbs and he'll be full grown.


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## Amyshojai

Awwwwwwwwwww...they grow up so fast!


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## Meb Bryant

We answered to a beagle named Snoopy for many years. Once a half-gallon of ice cream was left on top of the freezer. Assuming Snoopy would only eat a small sample, it was left within his reach. He ate the WHOLE thing and moaned all day.

He was also a kleptomaniac who stole assorted items from our neighbors. You're wondering why we didn't pen him up? We tried. Regular fence. Electric fence. Nothing worked. Thankfully we lived in a rural area where errant animals were tolerated. 

People always asked for his puppies because of his rotund belly.

Meb


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## MamaProfCrash

It took us 3 1/2 weeks to transition Cooper to a new food. The first four attempts ended n disaster. If Burke is eating just fine then don't mess with his food. We feed Caya and Cooper twice a day. 7:15 AM and 7:00 PM. I like the two meals a day because it is easier for them to digest the meals. We still have at least one of the dogs throw up a full meal aqbout once every two weeks. Caya stopped doing that when we cut her evening meal by 1/3 but Cooper still does. He is still a very skinny little guy so we are reluctant to cut his food back.


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## Amyshojai

It's so hot here that Magic has lost his appetite. He usually eats twice a day but the past week has barely finished his breakfast. I spike it with a bit of cat food to make sure he gets something inside, or he'll get an upset tummy and throw up yellow foam.


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## Sandpiper

I will leave Burke on Solid Gold puppy chow.  No problems with his appetite.  "More, please please please."  He doesn't get more.  Pretty sure when I picked up Burke from the breeder she said she was planning on switching food for the other two pups of the litter she was keeping.  So I thought maybe I should too.  I won't mess with a good thing.


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## Sandpiper

Four months, one week, two days old. At recent vet visit, weighed in at 12 lbs.










Who? Me? I didn't do it.


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## Carrien

Got to say Burke is sooo cute..... I hope to get another dog one of these days..since the hubby is not budging I may just have to do what I did with the last one. He kept asking me what I wanted for my b-day and I had already "ordered" the puppy and was trying to figure out how to tell him so I said how about I buy my own gift... He thought this was a great idea.. I even got him a card and had him sign it and he was sitting there all smug that I was doing my own shopping.. he thought this was great.... Until my b-day came and I opened the card and started jumping up and down and hugged him so tight and told him I loved it... Loved it.... He said laughing what did I get you? I said a PUPPY? His smile went away and he said No way... absolutely not....no no no no no noooooooooooooooooooo however a few months later we drove 8 hrs to the breeders, a night in a hotel, one speeding ticket on the way home and 9 yrs of craziness, laughter and silliness that was our life with Jake... my crazy boy went to the bridge 13 months ago...life hasn't been the same. So thanks for the updates and pic's of Burke, it gives me a much needed smile 

However for the past 10 yrs he has never ever allowed me to buy my own gift again! LOL


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## Sandpiper

Carrien said:


> However for the past 10 yrs he has never ever allowed me to buy my own gift again! LOL


Yes, LOL! Other than the sweetest, what (breed(s)) was Jake?


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## Carrien

Jake was a 102lb pure muscle, lean, fit, tall, healthy, happy Dark Chocolate Labrador. He was so silly, crazy and surely contributed to the random grey in my hair with his silly antics but also brought me much laughter, companionship and endless fun and was my best buddy. I lost him to relentless Seizures that had no medical reason to exist and were resistant to medications.


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## Amyshojai

So sorry you lost Jake--but what a lovely boy he must have been! Love your description. I think the "good ones" do leave their mark on us--gray hearts, sure, but mostly in our hearts. Here's hoping you'll soon be able to get another furry fix.

Burke sure is grown up! What a handsome fellow--and mischievous-R-us!


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## MamaProfCrash

Burke is a cutie. It sounds like he is training you well and both are adjusting nicely. 

Jake sounds like a wonderful dog. The mischevious ones are the most fun. We know we cannot leave anything on the counter otherwise Caya will eat it. Actually, she didn't eat the banana peel that was left there this weekend. She left it on the floor. The first food she has not eaten. Butter and cheese are her favorites. Cooper is a bouncy, exictable guy. Getting him to sit is a challenge because he just wants to run and play and jump on you to give you kisses.

I got a nice 30 minute long welcome home from the two of them after being gone for 4 days. It was amazing how excited they were.


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## caseyf6

Burke is adorable.  Love his little face. He sure seems to adore you!

Jake sounds like he was absolutely wonderful-- what a lucky dog to have someone so in love with him still.


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## HAGrant

Carrien said:


> Got to say Burke is sooo cute..... I hope to get another dog one of these days..since the hubby is not budging I may just have to do what I did with the last one. He kept asking me what I wanted for my b-day and I had already "ordered" the puppy and was trying to figure out how to tell him so I said how about I buy my own gift... He thought this was a great idea.. I even got him a card and had him sign it and he was sitting there all smug that I was doing my own shopping.. he thought this was great.... Until my b-day came and I opened the card and started jumping up and down and hugged him so tight and told him I loved it... Loved it.... He said laughing what did I get you? I said a PUPPY? His smile went away and he said No way... absolutely not....no no no no no noooooooooooooooooooo however a few months later we drove 8 hrs to the breeders, a night in a hotel, one speeding ticket on the way home and 9 yrs of craziness, laughter and silliness that was our life with Jake... my crazy boy went to the bridge 13 months ago...life hasn't been the same. So thanks for the updates and pic's of Burke, it gives me a much needed smile
> 
> However for the past 10 yrs he has never ever allowed me to buy my own gift again! LOL


What a great story!


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## Amyshojai

That's sorta-kinda-in-a-way what happened with my Seren-kitty. She showed up on a friend's back porch, asleep in a flower pot (4 month old baby). I couldn't reach my husband at work to warn him that I brought her home...and he nearly flipped. I promised (fingers crossed LOL!) we'd find her "lost" owners or find her a home.

About 2 weeks later, I came home and found him asleep on the sofa with her curled up and purring on his chest...she did the convincing. They always do.


----------



## Bryan R. Dennis

This thread title keeps making me smile. Reminds me of how my decision process works for some things, like:

Should I drink a beer? I did.


----------



## zeus

Sandpiper said:


>


What a cutie! I'd want to have a dog like this.


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## Sandpiper

They're the same breed -- Border Terrier.









Ribbon was a grizzle and tan? Or maybe wheaten?









Burke is a blue and tan.

Burke went to for a meet and greet at the Bellyrub Klub today. The excitement! The fun! He is beat!


----------



## Carrien

Amyshojai said:


> That's sorta-kinda-in-a-way what happened with my Seren-kitty. She showed up on a friend's back porch, asleep in a flower pot (4 month old baby). I couldn't reach my husband at work to warn him that I brought her home...and he nearly flipped. I promised (fingers crossed LOL!) we'd find her "lost" owners or find her a home.
> 
> About 2 weeks later, I came home and found him asleep on the sofa with her curled up and purring on his chest...she did the convincing. They always do.


I have been know to bring animals home...as a kid I brought home rabbits, a turtle and once tied a horse to the front railing of our inner city house.....my parents were not dog people...knew nothing about them and we had one dog growing up that was a snippy, snapper and that turned them off...they were completely convinced that purebred dogs and large breed dogs were so aggressive that you should fear sleeping in the house with them....so I brought home a purebred dog at age 19 convinced them that he wouldn't grow into those big feet. They told me to take him to a Vet and find out how big he would get and what kind he was...I couldn't believe they didn't go with me so I came home and said he would be 35-40lbs and the Vet wasn't sure what he was.....the dog was growing like a weed....6 months old and already 80lbs and they like him and they believed my lies.....one day I overhear my Dad talking to the mailman and the mailman is telling my Dad that is a purebred Lab....my Dad was confused and said the Vet doesn't know what he is.....the mailman said you better go to another Vet if they can't spot a Labrador....my Dad had the mailman write the dogs breed on the mail and he stomped towards the house with steam coming out his ears...I ran to my bedroom pretending I heard nothing.....my Dad walked in holding out the mail saying what does this mean....I said someone wrote on your mail? He said what does this name mean? I said I have no idea...why are you so upset....he said pointing to the dog...that dog is a Labrador...a purebred dog that will be over 100lbs....I said who said that? He said the mailman.....I said Dad seriously he is a mailman, the Vet didn't know what he was...why would the mailman know? My Dad thought about it and said you take this dog to another Vet and he wanted a receipt saying I went and if the dog was a purebred dog we were both being thrown out.....so I took him to a Vet and brought home a receipt and lied again saying there are you happy...that vet said he might have some Lab in him but he couldn't be sure.....that quieted them for 2 yrs until I moved out and told them the truth....we still laugh about it today and that is what makes the hubby nervous.......he knows my record....I got Jake after that dog.....I may have to be more creative this time around! Lol


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## Sandpiper

Another good story, *Carrien*.

Burke learned how to shake hands today!


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## Leslie

Carrien said:


> I have been know to bring animals home...as a kid I brought home rabbits, a turtle and once tied a horse to the front railing of our inner city house.....my parents were not dog people...knew nothing about them and we had one dog growing up that was a snippy, snapper and that turned them off...they were completely convinced that purebred dogs and large breed dogs were so aggressive that you should fear sleeping in the house with them....so I brought home a purebred dog at age 19 convinced them that he wouldn't grow into those big feet. They told me to take him to a Vet and find out how big he would get and what kind he was...I couldn't believe they didn't go with me so I came home and said he would be 35-40lbs and the Vet wasn't sure what he was.....the dog was growing like a weed....6 months old and already 80lbs and they like him and they believed my lies.....one day I overhear my Dad talking to the mailman and the mailman is telling my Dad that is a purebred Lab....my Dad was confused and said the Vet doesn't know what he is.....the mailman said you better go to another Vet if they can't spot a Labrador....my Dad had the mailman write the dogs breed on the mail and he stomped towards the house with steam coming out his ears...I ran to my bedroom pretending I heard nothing.....my Dad walked in holding out the mail saying what does this mean....I said someone wrote on your mail? He said what does this name mean? I said I have no idea...why are you so upset....he said pointing to the dog...that dog is a Labrador...a purebred dog that will be over 100lbs....I said who said that? He said the mailman.....I said Dad seriously he is a mailman, the Vet didn't know what he was...why would the mailman know? My Dad thought about it and said you take this dog to another Vet and he wanted a receipt saying I went and if the dog was a purebred dog we were both being thrown out.....so I took him to a Vet and brought home a receipt and lied again saying there are you happy...that vet said he might have some Lab in him but he couldn't be sure.....that quieted them for 2 yrs until I moved out and told them the truth....we still laugh about it today and that is what makes the hubby nervous.......he knows my record....I got Jake after that dog.....I may have to be more creative this time around! Lol


Thanks for a really, really good laugh this morning. This is hysterical..."the mailman said you better go to another Vet if they can't spot a Labrador" and your reply, "I said Dad seriously he is a mailman, the Vet didn't know what he was.." You can think on your feet! And you kept your dad going for another two years after that? Either your dad was really clueless (no offense meant!) or he really, really liked the dog and wanted an excuse to be clueless...I suspect the latter! Good to know you can all laugh about it. What a great story...thanks for sharing!


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## Sandpiper

Yesterday, for the first time, he definitely asked to go out twice by nosing the bells.  First time was about 15 minutes before I was planning to.  "Now?"  "Yes, NOW."  He wasn't kidding.  Then only about two hours later he asked again.  I now normally wait about four hours between trips out.  "Again?  So soon? Are you sure you don't want to go out and just smell the air?"  "Yes.  I have to now."  Again, he was not kidding.

Good, boy.


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## Amyshojai

Yay! I love it when the "light bulb" goes off! Good boy, Burke!


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## Carrien

Sandpiper said:


> Yesterday, for the first time, he definitely asked to go out twice by nosing the bells. First time was about 15 minutes before I was planning to. "Now?" "Yes, NOW." He wasn't kidding. Then only about two hours later he asked again. I now normally wait about four hours between trips out. "Again? So soon? Are you sure you don't want to go out and just smell the air?" "Yes. I have to now." Again, he was not kidding.
> 
> Good, boy.


That is soooo great that he is getting it.. its amazing sometimes how all of a sudden something clicks and its cause for celebration.. Wow and he learned how to hand shake too!!!! He is a smart boy for sure! You know how dogs give paw gently... Jake used to slam his paw into your hand... He was a rough dog but I think he just never realized his size or his strength...


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## Carrien

Leslie said:


> Thanks for a really, really good laugh this morning. This is hysterical..."the mailman said you better go to another Vet if they can't spot a Labrador" and your reply, "I said Dad seriously he is a mailman, the Vet didn't know what he was.." You can think on your feet! And you kept your dad going for another two years after that? Either your dad was really clueless (no offense meant!) or he really, really liked the dog and wanted an excuse to be clueless...I suspect the latter! Good to know you can all laugh about it. What a great story...thanks for sharing!


Leslie...No offense at all.... Had I not heard the conversation I probably couldn't have answered that quickly and so calmly but I can tell you my heart was pounding, sweaty and knee's knocking. No disrespect to mailmen either... I was just trying to get my Dad to believe me..I had to instill some doubt so that is why I said the Vet didn't know and he is a mailman.. Had my parents come with me one time to the Vet, they would have seen it say Black Labrador Retriever....Plain as can be.....but I think they just couldn't wrap their heads around it.. it went against everything they believed to be true..how could they have fallen in love with a big big black dog that was a purebred dog... it went against everything they believed to be true! They have a better understanding these days but they are still reserved around big dogs. They have a cat they adore who is the meanest cat I have ever meet, she will come into the room you are at to hiss, growl, screech and then charge you claws out and all your doing is sitting there but she is all purs and snuggles with my parents... That cat is more dangerous than any dog I have ever brought home for sure!


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## QuantumIguana

I like other people's dogs just fine, but I prefer cats. Dogs are so much more high maintenance. With a cat, I can go away for the weekend. I just leave out plenty of food and water, and make sure the cat box is clean. If I'm going to be gone longer, I'll put out a second cat box.


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## Amyshojai

Carrien, my cat Seren is like that with us. Most cats actually are either shy of strangers--or want them to get the HECK out of THEIR house and away from THEIR people, LOL!

QuantumIguana, love your handle. *s* And it's true that cats do have a bit more leeway when it comes to being gone. My dog thinks if he has to get wet in the rain to do his biz, then so do the humans making him go out in it.


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## Carrien

Amyshojai said:


> Carrien, my cat Seren is like that with us. Most cats actually are either shy of strangers--or want them to get the HECK out of THEIR house and away from THEIR people, LOL!
> 
> QuantumIguana, love your handle. *s* And it's true that cats do have a bit more leeway when it comes to being gone. My dog thinks if he has to get wet in the rain to do his biz, then so do the humans making him go out in it.


Amyshojai... Really... your cat will confront guests as well? I guess that sounds weird as my Cat if she even hears the doorbell she jumps out of her skin and her little feet are scrambling to run and hide. She will stay hidden for up to 2 days if family has come to visit. She prefers to be looked at and talked to rather than petted or held. However if its cold she is like velcro.

QuantumIguana - your right Cats are easier for sure in the way of wanting to stay out late or staying overnight. No-one knew we had a cat as they never seen her and we asked a neighbor to come in and check her water and feed her while we were on vacation, he said the first two days he thought we were messing with him as a joke cause the litter box was even empty.. then day three the litter box was full and some food eaten but he never seen her.. we have her 7 yrs and few have seen her!


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## SimonSmithWilson

Cats are easier? lol. My old cat, Tammy, was a monster. She was a really beautiful and loving cat, but was the type of cat that chased dogs when she was younger. She hated the lights going out at night, which meant you had to leave the living room light on or she howled all night. Only I could handle her or she turned into the devil. I love cats, but I find dogs so much easier. Tammy always reminded me of Nanny Ogg's cat from the Discworld novels. Lovely to me, but evil to all other living creatures, lol.


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## Amyshojai

Well see...there are more than 400 dog breeds and only about 50 or so distinct cat breeds, plus all the random-bred combos. It's no wonder that every one of the furry wonders is unique!

Carrien, probably your pet's c'attitude is more typical--cats have what I call the "stranger danger" gene that serves 'em well and keeps them from being eaten in the wild. But the more confident in-your-face cats like Seren or SimonSmithWilson's Tammy often are more healthy because they deal with stress differently and confront such situations. *shrug* 

Part of the fun of pets is the unexpected. Sure, you can adopt a lovely pup like Burke (don't want to totally hijack this thread!) and know sorta-kinda what to expect based on breed...and then there will be exceptions just to keep you on your toes. Love it!


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## Sandpiper

HALLELUJAH !!!  I found a place that does do hand stripping.  They have a groomer who is nationally ranked at it.  I believe it from what Sue, owner of the Bellyrub Klub (Burke is now a member), told me about the place and groomers.  They said bring him in now to get him started / get him used to being stripped.  I have an 11:30 appointment next Friday.  He is going to be a handsome boy, although he already is.

HALLELUJAH !!!


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## Amyshojai

That's great! Yes, start 'em early so they know it's a "normal" part of being a terrier. The Bellyrub Klub looks like a fun facility.


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## Sandpiper

"I played hard today."


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Carrien

That is so cute when they lay like that!  So precious!  

Sorry if this is a silly question but I was wondering about the stripping of Burkes coat.  Would his fur grow and become matted if not?  Does it remove his fur or just trim it?  Having always had wash and wear dogs, this is something I haven't heard of before!  

Your puppy group sounds great and it's excellent socialization for him as well.  

Love the pics!!!


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## Sandpiper

I don't think there are too many breeds that need hand stripping. As adults, about twice a year the top coat (hair) dies and needs to be pulled out by hand. (Can be done couple more times per year to keep dog neat looking.) Dead hair is coarse. Dog is left with softer under coat. Doesn't really hurt when the hair is pulled out. Dogs get used to it. It's done pretty much over the whole dog. Just a little snipping with scissors in certain places. Certain stripping and snipping done to the face to get the Border look. A dog whose top / coarse coat has grown out and has not been stripped is said to have a "blown" coat. It isn't an attractive thing.

Burke will get stripped some. I don't know what / how much stripping is done to Border puppies. Breeder recently e-mailed that she has stripped Burke's litter mates that she kept. So I guess he is ready for some grooming.

Stripping is time consuming and kind of $$ to have done. Very (very) few groomers do it.

















These are "before" and "after" photos of a Border. "Before" photo is a blown coat. "After" photo is after using a FURminator. FURminatored dog does not look as good as one that has been hand stripped. I don't know if a FURminator cuts the hair or not. That is something you don't want to do unless you don't care. Some people do simply clip the coat. It's faster, easier, etc. But it does not look the same. Coat is pretty much ruined. I guess it can eventually all grow out to be what it should again, but it takes a few years -- I think. Breeder has an older Border that she said she is now going to clip.


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## Amyshojai

Great before/after pix. No, the FURminator doesn't cut the coat, simply pulls off the loosened shed-able fur. It's great for double-coated dogs (also for cats).


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Great before/after pix. No, the FURminator doesn't cut the coat, simply pulls off the loosened shed-able fur. It's great for double-coated dogs (also for cats).


So it would be good for a Border's coat? More comments about it, Amy? Maybe I could use a FURminator on Burke myself and then take him to a groomer to be "prettied up"?


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## Amyshojai

Well...it's not for a "show coat" but does an excellent job to help control the blown drifts of fur during shedding season, LOL! Probably using it and then having the groomer "pretty" him up is a good combo. You might ask the groomer's opinion, too.


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## Carrien

Sandpiper, thanks for the explaination and the visual, I was trying to envision in my mind what that was.. so now its clear. Definately the Border with the trimmed coat is better looking dog. I hope you'll take before and after pictures of Burke, but I can't imagine his coat is out of control like the "before" picture.  Keep us posted on how that goes....


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## MamaProfCrash

Do you have a picture of a Border who has been stripped? It would be interesting to see how different that looks from the FURminator. I know Caya was shedding like mad and we used the FURminator for a few weeks. Since then she has not shed. I think she was shedding her puppy coat and that her adult coat simply does not shed.

Now ti figure out to stop Cooper's shedding....


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## Pawz4me

I know groomers who detest Furminators because they say they do indeed cut/break the outer layer of hair.

But I also know groomers who won't use a Zoom Groom for the same reason, and who think a slicker brush is trash unless you paid at least $50 for it.

Personally, for those of us whose dogs are just pets, I don't know that it really matters.  I like my dogs to look nice, and my non-professional groomer's eye can't tell that the Furminator (or Zoom Groom) makes the coat look cut or broken.  But really I think when it comes to fur control it's how frequently you brush that's really more important than what type of brush you use.


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## MamaProfCrash

Agreed. We use a Zoom Groom and a Furminator. We care about not having fur dropped all over the house. The dogs are healthy and look just fine.


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## Sandpiper

Burke, especially still being just a pup, looks nothing like that. A little feathery in places. That probably needs stripping. I don't really know. Via e-mail, breeder said he might be a "smoothie", have a smoother coat than the usual Border Terrier.

I think this is good example of a Border Terrier


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## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Do you have a picture of a Border who has been stripped? It would be interesting to see how different that looks from the FURminator. I know Caya was shedding like mad and we used the FURminator for a few weeks. Since then she has not shed. I think she was shedding her puppy coat and that her adult coat simply does not shed.


Borders are said to shed very little (to none?). Burke is losing very very (very?) fine hair. Puppy hair / coat?


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## Sandpiper

I seem to keep hearing good things about Cesar Millan.  (CBS Sunday Morning did segment on him yesterday.)  If I was buying ONE or two of his books, which one(s) would you recommend?  I was at almost-gone local Borders this morning.  They didn't have any of his books, but I bought season 3 DVDs of his Dog Whisperer.  I've never had cable or satellite, so have never seen the program.  I've heard good things about it lately.


Picked Burke up from the Klub daycare not long ago.  He's sound asleep.  They told me he was playing with a Beagle pup.    Beagle makes a good playmate.


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## Amyshojai

Uhm.....I am not the person to ask about Mr. Millan. He's a brilliant marketing person, looks/sounds great on TV and has others write his books for him--and his training is NOT science-based. He has gotten better since the veterinary behaviorists, ASPCA, American Humane et al took issue with some of his techniques that had injured/killed dogs. Sorry, but I cannot recommend him.

Yes he gets results on his show. Yes, dogs need to be treated like dogs. Yes, most dogs need more exercise than they get. No, dogs are not in a contest to become "dominant" over owners yada yada yada...Remember that any TV show also is edited for TV, though. For a GOOD dog training tv show, check out "It's Me Or The Dog" which I can highly recommend. She's got good books out, too--that's Victoria Stillwell. Or Pat Miller's books are excellent. Or Patricia McConnell. Or Deb Wood. Jean Donaldson. Or or or....The Dog Writers Association of America (www.DWAA.org) has MANY outstanding writers/trainers with solid info.

From what I can gather Mr Millan continues to train based on the outdated "dominance theory" of wolves that has been debunked by modern behaviorists and trainers. 

Okay, now I'll get off my soapbox *s*


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## Sandpiper

Thanks, Amy.  Won't bother with any more Cesar.


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## Amyshojai

Hey, the play-date with the beagle sounds like fun!


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## Pawz4me

Don't get me started on him, either.

What Amy said is much more polite than what I would've said.

And that's all I'm sayin' . . .


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## Amyshojai

Pawz4me said:


> Don't get me started on him, either.
> 
> What Amy said is much more polite than what I would've said.
> 
> And that's all I'm sayin' . . .


LOL!


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## Sandpiper

I guess Burke should be learning more obedience. It's so easy to teach him tricks. Shake hands a few days ago. And now -- jump. Started just by going over my leg. But now he simply jumps up, not over.

Going after a toy under the couch . . .


----------



## Schnauzermom

Amyshojai said:


> Uhm.....I am not the person to ask about Mr. Millan. He's a brilliant marketing person, looks/sounds great on TV and has others write his books for him--and his training is NOT science-based. He has gotten better since the veterinary behaviorists, ASPCA, American Humane et al took issue with some of his techniques that had injured/killed dogs. Sorry, but I cannot recommend him.
> 
> Yes he gets results on his show. Yes, dogs need to be treated like dogs. Yes, most dogs need more exercise than they get. No, dogs are not in a contest to become "dominant" over owners yada yada yada...Remember that any TV show also is edited for TV, though. For a GOOD dog training tv show, check out "It's Me Or The Dog" which I can highly recommend. She's got good books out, too--that's Victoria Stillwell. Or Pat Miller's books are excellent. Or Patricia McConnell. Or Deb Wood. Jean Donaldson. Or or or....The Dog Writers Association of America (www.DWAA.org) has MANY outstanding writers/trainers with solid info.
> 
> From what I can gather Mr Millan continues to train based on the outdated "dominance theory" of wolves that has been debunked by modern behaviorists and trainers.
> 
> Okay, now I'll get off my soapbox *s*


What Amy Said.


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## MamaProfCrash

If only Cooper was small enough to go after the ball he knocks under things.

As in knocks under everything.

Cooper loves his ball. He really, really loves his tennis balls. We are using those as treats these days. He has a Kong ball (red, has little slots for inserting dog bisquits) and a nylabone ball (it is green and was on the end of a tug toy) which he plays fetch with in the house. He loves playing with them but when he loses them under something he paces, and pouts, and tries to dig them out, and then barks.


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## Amyshojai

Magic "loses" balls under furniture, too. But I think he does it on purpose so we have to get down and fish it out, and get involved with his game. *s*

Solved this with the cat--put Ping Pong ball in the bathtub. She can't knock it out. Won't work with the dog, though.


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## MamaProfCrash

We know Cooper does it intentionally. We have seem him drop the ball for more fetch and then knock it under the desk when we say enough.Seriously, he sits there wagging his tail nudging the ball to us and if we don't pick it up after a few seconds he takes his paw and whaps the ball so it goes under the desk. Then he comes around, nudges to get past my legs, goes under the desk, comes out and looks at me with that "I can't get it myself" look and sits down. 

Caya takes her favorite tug toy and drops it in my lap. If I ignore that she nudges the tug toy in my lap. If I ignore that she nudges while whimpering and then sits, wagging her tail, and looks pathetic.

Somehow my Husband is able to ignore all of this. I end up playing more fetch and tug.

And he wonders why the dogs come scratching at the door when I am sleeping in and not when he is sleeping in.


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> We know Cooper does it intentionally. We have seem him drop the ball for more fetch and then knock it under the desk when we say enough.Seriously, he sits there wagging his tail nudging the ball to us and if we don't pick it up after a few seconds he takes his paw and whaps the ball so it goes under the desk. Then he comes around, nudges to get past my legs, goes under the desk, comes out and looks at me with that "I can't get it myself" look and sits down.
> 
> Caya takes her favorite tug toy and drops it in my lap. If I ignore that she nudges the tug toy in my lap. If I ignore that she nudges while whimpering and then sits, wagging her tail, and looks pathetic.
> 
> Somehow my Husband is able to ignore all of this. I end up playing more fetch and tug.
> 
> And he wonders why the dogs come scratching at the door when I am sleeping in and not when he is sleeping in.


Yep, they've got ya trained, LOL!


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## MamaProfCrash

That they do and I kind of like it.


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## cc84

Burke is coming on great and so beautiful! I'm glad puppy training is going well for you. My Westie Noah rarely does accidents in the house now and scratches the door to go out, he's nearly 9 months. He needs a vet check this week because he may have to be neutered because one of his, erm male parts hasn't descended  

Anyway just wanted to say how cute Burke is


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## Amyshojai

cc84 said:


> Burke is coming on great and so beautiful! I'm glad puppy training is going well for you. My Westie Noah rarely does accidents in the house now and scratches the door to go out, he's nearly 9 months. He needs a vet check this week because he may have to be neutered because one of his, erm male parts hasn't descended
> 
> Anyway just wanted to say how cute Burke is


Sorry about Noah possibly being cryptorchid...that can predispose to cancer so a good idea to get it check and removed. And (shhhhh don't tell him) he'll never miss it! *s*


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## Zander Schloss

Best quote I've ever seen about dogs (and I wish I could find who wrote it):

"I aspire to be the person my dog thinks I am."


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## Amyshojai

A lot of different versions of that quote floating around the Internet--never have found attribution. Here are some other kewl doggy quotes:

http://www.aplacetolovedogs.com/2011/07/15-great-dog-quotes/1486619614/


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## Sandpiper

Burke is going to start classes again this Sunday. Classes with trainer who has come to my place twice already. I like her very much. She says he's ready for Advanced Beginner class. My boy ready for Advanced beginner?!

I was out for 3 - 3.5 hours today. Oh oh. For the first time Burke BARKED BARKED BARKED so neighbor told me. (I'm in a condo.) Neighbor was not happy. This was first time though. I called trainer. She suggested some things I can try. Anyone have any suggestions to stop it?

ETA: He still hasn't made a sound during the night (since I got him on June 1 -- except for two nights recently. It's been HOT until app. past week so I have had small fan next to my bed and next to his crate going all night. The two nights he cried -- no fan. Must be the soft whirring of the fan that comforts him.

So also until lately the A/C (which is very close to his crate in the living room) has been going most of the time. It's cooler now so it's not. Maybe the sound of that is comforting too? I always leave soft music on when I'm gone. Trainer suggested closing the windows so noise from the street is not so loud. (Windows would have been closed when A/C was on.) And also maybe closing window sheers so less sight distraction from street. (Sheers were also closed during summer heat.)


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## Amyshojai

Sorry, it's late so this is just a quick reply...will offer more specifics when I'm not so tired. *s* But here's a link to a general article on curbing barking:

http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Puppy-Barking.htm


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Sorry, it's late so this is just a quick reply...will offer more specifics when I'm not so tired. *s* But here's a link to a general article on curbing barking:
> 
> http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Puppy-Barking.htm


A link in the article led me to a review you did of Comfort Zone with D.A.P. You like it. Do you think some D.A.P. sprayed on his bed in his crate when I'm gone for longer time would help stop barking?


----------



## Sandpiper

New experience last night. Yesterday Gayle, my good trainer, suggested letting Burke have freedom during the night?! Gayle thought he'd probably end up jumping on MY bed. Not sure how I feel about that.

So went to bed as usual. After I got into bed, I leaned over and opened the plastic crate door. He was free -- in the dark! I laid there and listened. Didn't take long and I thought I heard gentle nosing of the bells on the door. I'm not positive, but I think so. Well, this isn't going to work!!! So I closed him in the plastic crate. Went and nibbled a little in the kitchen myself. Back to bed. Guess I'll try again. In the dark I opened crate door again and laid there and listened to his footsteps. Figured I wouldn't get any sleep. I did have a talk radio station on. I started listening to that . . . and I fell asleep. I had put Burke's LL Bean bed in the bedroom too. And that's where he slept last night. We now have a new sleeping arrangement. 

Burke is growing up. I thought I had to make a mad dash outside with him as soon as I / we got up in the morning. I guess not. I got up and have been here at the computer for a while. He came in the living room too and is now curled up sleeping in the open wire crate. Hasn't been outside as yet to take care of biz. He is growing up.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

It sounds like Burke had a great night. 

We let the dogs up on the bed when we are in it but they sleep on their dog beds. They normally spend about an hour up there with us.


----------



## Leslie

Monday likes to sit/sleep on the furniture (first dog we've ever had that we'd let get up on the furniture! We must be getting soft in our old age...LOL). Fortunately, however, she has not gotten up on the bed. If she tried, I'd think we'd discourage that.

Sounds like Burke is doing great!

L


----------



## MamaProfCrash

It sounds like Monday doesn't shed so that is a plus. Cooper sheds like mad so we limit where he can go. Actually, we only allowed Caya on the bed as well and she is not much of a shedder. (shrugs)


----------



## Sandpiper

It's noon and Burke has not been closed in the crate at all yet today.  He's sleeping in it by choice now.  I took the divider panel out this morning.  We were out a while ago.  He has walked by the bells on the doorknob 2 - 3 times.  Definitely looked at them, but kept walking.  GOOD, boy.

I have another long scratch on my leg.  (It's kind warm -- I'm in shorts.)

I have a dog!!  A GOOD dog.  (Qualify that -- as long as he doesn't BARK like he did yesterday when I was gone.)


----------



## Sandpiper

I was looking at Amy's About.com Puppies info. Reminded me of this photo a friend sent to me:


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> A link in the article led me to a review you did of Comfort Zone with D.A.P. You like it. Do you think some D.A.P. sprayed on his bed in his crate when I'm gone for longer time would help stop barking?


Well, if he barks out of fear the DAP might be helpful. But if he barks from boredom or excitement it probably wouldn't be all that effective.

Oftentimes, when dogs bark when they're alone, it's because their bored, frustrated, or lonely. Puzzle toys often do help with this--another linke/article on separation behaviors has some suggestions:

http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Puppy-Separation-Anxiety.htm

Burke IS growing up, good dog! Magic sleeps on our bed but only until my husband comes to bed. Then he gets down and sleeps on the cool bathroom floor.

Oh-oh-oh I love that picture of the skunk babies! But I just saw my friend who's St. Bernard/Dane cross dog tangled with a skunk that was collected/sent for rabies tests...and her dog had to be quarantined for the duration. Scary, not fun! Those babies are way cute but I sure wouldn't risk it here in Texas.


----------



## Leslie

ProfCrash said:


> It sounds like Monday doesn't shed so that is a plus. Cooper sheds like mad so we limit where he can go. Actually, we only allowed Caya on the bed as well and she is not much of a shedder. (shrugs)


Yes, she has hair, not fur, so she doesn't shed. On the other hand, she needs to be brushed and combed--a lot. I guess it is all a trade-off.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

The photo of the kids and "kitties", IIRC, was taken some place in southern Indiana.  I got the photo from a friend who got it from . . . who got it from . . . .  

Just the other day I drove past skunk roadkill here.  Surprised that it didn't smell at all ??


----------



## Lisa J. Yarde

Finally got a dog too after more than 20 years, a black and white Shih Tzu named Zoro.  He's five weeks old, just too cute. Now I'll never get any writing done, I just want to play with or hold him.


----------



## Amyshojai

lyarde11751 said:


> Finally got a dog too after more than 20 years, a black and white Shih Tzu named Zoro. He's five weeks old, just too cute. Now I'll never get any writing done, I just want to play with or hold him.


Congratulations! Pictures please, we demand cute puppy pix of Zoro! *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Five weeks?!  That is a baby.  Good luck!    Have fun!


----------



## Sandpiper

I live in a condo in a very residential area. Was going to take Burke out for his last trip app. 11:30 tonight. Out the front door of the building instead of end of wing as usual.

*SKUNK*

right there at the front door of the building!!!! We made a trip out the wing door for a quick pee. I'm still in shock. TG Burke didn't see the skunk. It was on the other side of the glass door.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper turned one yesterday. I tried telling him that adult dogs sleep past 7 AM and he looked at me with his goofy face, licked my nose, and encouraged me to get up at 6:45.


----------



## RedTash

Congrats on the new fur babies!

We lost our best friend of 16 years this summer.  

We are now down to just two dogs, and no more dogs for us (we say)!  But then I see these two beautiful dogs at the park every night, and it makes me go "I wanna..."


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I live in a condo in a very residential area. Was going to take Burke out for his last trip app. 11:30 tonight. Out the front door of the building instead of end of wing as usual.
> 
> *SKUNK*
> 
> right there at the front door of the building!!!! We made a trip out the wing door for a quick pee. I'm still in shock. TG Burke didn't see the skunk. It was on the other side of the glass door.


Wow! Skunks do live in rural areas. But I'd be very concerned about a skunk that's not afraid of being that close to people. Here in Texas, skunks are a rabies risk. My friend's dog just got out of quarantine after a skunk encounter so it's VERY good Burke didn't see/encounter the lovely lil' guy (despite the aromatic danger).


----------



## caseyf6

YIKES so glad he didn't see the little guy!!


----------



## Sandpiper

Don't need a skunk.  Burke farts.  STINKY.  Searched "dogs flatulence" on-line.  Pretty sure the problem is he eats too fast so takes in mucho air along with food.  He gulps it down.  DogPause bowl is available for $12.95 + shipping.  Bowl is divided into four sections.  Or a site suggests putting a largish object in the bowl with the food.  Dog has to eat around it so that slows him down.  I'll put a biggish ball in with his food.

It's time for Burke's breakfast . . . .


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Don't need a skunk. Burke farts. STINKY. Searched "dogs flatulence" on-line. Pretty sure the problem is he eats too fast so takes in mucho air along with food. He gulps it down. DogPause bowl is available for $12.95 + shipping. Bowl is divided into four sections. Or a site suggests putting a largish object in the bowl with the food. Dog has to eat around it so that slows him down. I'll put a biggish ball in with his food.
> 
> It's time for Burke's breakfast . . . .


LOL! A number of things can prompt the tooty-fruity doggy music. *s* Yes, slowing down the eating can help. Feeding in a puzzle toy will do the same thing as eating around a ball (my Magical-dawg just picks up the ball and throws it away). Some foods have quite a bit of soy protein (good for dogs but generates gas). Yogurt or a probiotic added can help with that, too.

Dang, that's a GREAT topic to add to my "puppies" list. *s*


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper would remove the ball to play with then scarf his food then play with the ball.

Cooper is a silly puppy. 

I have heard peoplre recommend a metal collar works will as a way of stopping fast eating.


----------



## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> I have heard peoplre recommend a metal collar works will as a way of stopping fast eating.


Uhm...you mean in the bowl? *s* Yes, a short length of chain can slow 'em down.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Yes in the bowl. Sorry

So Cooper is displaying a new quirky trait. He will be playing with a tennis ball and Caya will come over and sit in front of me wagging her tail. I'll get a tennis ball for Caya and play cathc, a game she enjoys from time to time. Cooper will see Caya with a ball and drop his ball to take her ball. Caya will sometimes drop her ball and walk away looking dejected. 

I'll take Caya's ball from Cooper and throw him his ball but he won't chase it. If I give the ball back to Caya she will slink away from it knowing that Cooper is going to take it. 

How do I stop this? I guess the question is how do I teach Cooper to share. 

We had a bit of a rough time with a rawhide bone this weekend. I gave Caya her half and Cooper wanted it. Caya dropped it and slinked away. I went and sat next to Caya with the bone but she wouldn't take it. My Hubby was able to distract Cooper with a tennis ball and after a few minutes Caya hesitantly took the rawhide. It took about 10 minutes before she was able to sit by herself comfortably with the raw hide.

I know that I have to let the dogs work out some of this on their own. I know that Cooper is being a dog. I don't like the look that Caya gets when she has something she knows Cooper can take from her and he will take from her. She should be able to safely play with toys and not worry about Cooper. She should be able to have a raw hide and not worry about Cooper attacking her for it.

In every other case, Cooper backs down from Caya but when it comes to ball and rawhide he is a bully.

Help.


----------



## Sandpiper

I put a ball that's a little large for his mouth in the bowl with the food.  He ate around it.  I took it out so he could get to the last little bit.  (I'll use it until I come up with something else.)  It's a red Kong ball, heavy solid rubber.  Same one we play "ball in the hall" with.  It's a little big for his mouth.  He can kind of get his teeth into it and hang on.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Yogurt or a probiotic added can help with that, too.


I read some place that yogurt isn't good for dogs? I always have plain lowfat yogurt in the fridge. A spoonful of that for dessert after Burke's meals would help eliminate the gas?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Yogurt is fine. It is the case for must dog ice cream.


----------



## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> Yes in the bowl. Sorry
> 
> So Cooper is displaying a new quirky trait. He will be playing with a tennis ball and Caya will come over and sit in front of me wagging her tail. I'll get a tennis ball for Caya and play cathc, a game she enjoys from time to time. Cooper will see Caya with a ball and drop his ball to take her ball. Caya will sometimes drop her ball and walk away looking dejected.
> 
> I'll take Caya's ball from Cooper and throw him his ball but he won't chase it. If I give the ball back to Caya she will slink away from it knowing that Cooper is going to take it.
> 
> How do I stop this? I guess the question is how do I teach Cooper to share.
> 
> We had a bit of a rough time with a rawhide bone this weekend. I gave Caya her half and Cooper wanted it. Caya dropped it and slinked away. I went and sat next to Caya with the bone but she wouldn't take it. My Hubby was able to distract Cooper with a tennis ball and after a few minutes Caya hesitantly took the rawhide. It took about 10 minutes before she was able to sit by herself comfortably with the raw hide.
> 
> I know that I have to let the dogs work out some of this on their own. I know that Cooper is being a dog. I don't like the look that Caya gets when she has something she knows Cooper can take from her and he will take from her. She should be able to safely play with toys and not worry about Cooper. She should be able to have a raw hide and not worry about Cooper attacking her for it.
> 
> In every other case, Cooper backs down from Caya but when it comes to ball and rawhide he is a bully.
> 
> Help.


Well...you won't like my answer, I'm afraid. *s* Cooper is the boss of toys. The more you try to make him "play fair" by taking away the ball and giving it to Caya, the more Cooper thinks he must reinforce the lesson and take it away again.

Play fetch with Caya out of Cooper's view. But otherwise, when he takes the toy away (and Caya gives those "you're the boss" signals) let her do that! It's dog language for keeping the peace. Once Cooper knows that Caya DOES recognize him as the boss (and you don't interfere *s* ) the better chance Cooper won't feel impelled to continue teaching the lesson.

Dog world is NOT democratic. It is not fair. Dog world is that the boss dog is boss and gets first crack and food, toys, attention. Once everyone acknowledges who gets preferential treatment then there's less need to make a fuss over it. Now of course you don't want a fight--but as long as Caya is being deferential she's okay with this. Those "dejected" signs are actually peace-keeper language that says "I mean no harm, I won't challenge you." It's normal, it doesn't mean she's depressed necessarily. Hope this helps. Here's a quick article gives more details: http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Calming-Signals.htm


----------



## loonlover

Here is the bowl we use for our standard poodle. It really does make a difference in how fast she eats. There is a smaller size that would probably be better for Burke.

http://www.amazon.com/Brake-Fast-Dog-Food-Bowls-Medium/dp/B000PE30MQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316469176&sr=8-1


----------



## Sandpiper

loonlover said:


> Here is the bowl we use for our standard poodle. It really does make a difference in how fast she eats. There is a smaller size that would probably be better for Burke.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Brake-Fast-Dog-Food-Bowls-Medium/dp/B000PE30MQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316469176&sr=8-1


Looks like a good idea. But the ball (or whatever) in the bowl with the food slows him down too. Then a spoonful of yogurt for dessert.


----------



## Jane917

loonlover said:


> Here is the bowl we use for our standard poodle. It really does make a difference in how fast she eats. There is a smaller size that would probably be better for Burke.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Brake-Fast-Dog-Food-Bowls-Medium/dp/B000PE30MQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316469176&sr=8-1


That is the same bowl I use for Kona, the brittany. It has slowed down his eating to a more normal pace, but is still pretty fast. I have to pick it up as soon as Kona is finished eating, because Jack, the Cavalier King Charles, loves to chew on the divider parts. Must have some left over residue.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Amyshojai said:


> Well...you won't like my answer, I'm afraid. *s* Cooper is the boss of toys. The more you try to make him "play fair" by taking away the ball and giving it to Caya, the more Cooper thinks he must reinforce the lesson and take it away again.
> 
> Play fetch with Caya out of Cooper's view. But otherwise, when he takes the toy away (and Caya gives those "you're the boss" signals) let her do that! It's dog language for keeping the peace. Once Cooper knows that Caya DOES recognize him as the boss (and you don't interfere *s* ) the better chance Cooper won't feel impelled to continue teaching the lesson.
> 
> Dog world is NOT democratic. It is not fair. Dog world is that the boss dog is boss and gets first crack and food, toys, attention. Once everyone acknowledges who gets preferential treatment then there's less need to make a fuss over it. Now of course you don't want a fight--but as long as Caya is being deferential she's okay with this. Those "dejected" signs are actually peace-keeper language that says "I mean no harm, I won't challenge you." It's normal, it doesn't mean she's depressed necessarily. Hope this helps. Here's a quick article gives more details: http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Calming-Signals.htm


I figured that was the case but it is so hard. I am getting a second elk antler tomorrow.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Just as I resign myself to letting Cooper do his thing, Caya decides that she is not going to let Cooper have the elk antler and wins. Cooper got bored with ball and went to where Caya was with elk antler. Caya gets up with elk antler and moves, Cooper follows her. Caya growls. Cooper follows her and nudges her. Caya growls and nudges Cooper. Cooper goes back to ball.

I don't get doggie dynamics....


----------



## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> Just as I resign myself to letting Cooper do his thing, Caya decides that she is not going to let Cooper have the elk antler and wins. Cooper got bored with ball and went to where Caya was with elk antler. Caya gets up with elk antler and moves, Cooper follows her. Caya growls. Cooper follows her and nudges her. Caya growls and nudges Cooper. Cooper goes back to ball.
> 
> I don't get doggie dynamics....


LOL! It's a dance! And it's not absolute--one dog's "boss" in the yard, another in the family room, another in the car...and having an owner present (or not) may make a difference, or age, or or or...*s* So happy it's all worked out with growls only. Growls are GOOD! (no growls that go straight to attack...VERY bad!)


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Rawhide = growls and then attack if Caya doesn't give Cooper his. The tennis ball worked as a distraction this last time. We will have to try that again.

I am also working on Cooper sitting when he wants me to get his ball from under something instead of pawing my leg. That dog goes through more tennis balls. The good news is my Husband opens at least four cans of tennis balls a week.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

So I stopped at the pet store on the way home today and bought a second elk antler. Both dogs were very excited to see it. Caya got to it first and started sniffing and chomping on it. Cooper spent the next 45 minutes starting at Caya, approaching Caya (who knew that dogs could growl and bark with a mouth full of elk antler?), and barking at Caya. He ignored the big red ball, a normal favorite when tennis balls are not available, two tug toys, and the second elk antler. 

I went upstairs to watch Eureka and both dogs followed me, neither carrying the elk antler. Caya curled up on the bed with me to take a nap. Cooper left the bed and disappeared. 45 minutes later, he comes upstairs carrying the elk antler all happy and bouncy. After dinner he quickly reclaimed the elk antler and snagged the second one to sit on. I gave the second one to Caya and she just lay there staring at Cooper and the new elk antler.

So we have two elk antlers, no fighting, and only one actually being used. And Caya, I just noticed, is curled up next to a ox, the wall, and behind a folding chair. Cooper is laying on the second bone and happily chewing away. 

I am guessing I should give up trying to understand my dogs.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

ProfCrash said:


> So I stopped at the pet store on the way home today and bought a second elk antler. Both dogs were very excited to see it. Caya got to it first and started sniffing and chomping on it. Cooper spent the next 45 minutes starting at Caya, approaching Caya (who knew that dogs could growl and bark with a mouth full of elk antler?), and barking at Caya. He ignored the big red ball, a normal favorite when tennis balls are not available, two tug toys, and the second elk antler.
> 
> I went upstairs to watch Eureka and both dogs followed me, neither carrying the elk antler. Caya curled up on the bed with me to take a nap. Cooper left the bed and disappeared. 45 minutes later, he comes upstairs carrying the elk antler all happy and bouncy. After dinner he quickly reclaimed the elk antler and snagged the second one to sit on. I gave the second one to Caya and she just lay there staring at Cooper and the new elk antler.
> 
> So we have two elk antlers, no fighting, and only one actually being used. And Caya, I just noticed, is curled up next to a ox, the wall, and behind a folding chair. Cooper is laying on the second bone and happily chewing away.
> 
> *I am guessing I should give up trying to understand my dogs.*


actually, just imagine them as teenagers. No one ever knows what goes thru their heads and why they thought *that* was a good idea to begin w/. It just helps.

As for my dog, she spent a furious 5 minutes barking @ people who were using the sidewalk to walk down the street. Because she's gotta work on her street cred. Everyone knows pugs are fierce, word.


----------



## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Cooper spent the next 45 minutes starting at Caya, approaching Caya (who knew that dogs could growl and bark with a mouth full of elk antler?), and barking at Caya.


I'm always surprised when I hear Burke's bark, look at him, and he has a toy in his mouth ?!  "How'd you do that?"

(Burke was briefly mentioned on the radio last night.  )


----------



## Amyshojai

So Burke is famous?! Kewl!


----------



## Sandpiper

Look what I found next to Burke's food bowl !!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya's puppy teeth would come out when I was playing tug with her.


----------



## Amyshojai

I saved a couple of Magic's baby teeth, too--with the collar he wore when he came home. It's bracelet-size. Wouldn't fit around his nose these days!


----------



## Sandpiper

Any other suggestions for quieting a barking Burke while I'm gone.  I guess sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't.  I was out for not very long today.  Windows closed.  Sheers closed.  Soft music playing.  Toy and stuffed Kong in with him.  He wasn't barking when I left or came back.  My neighbor just told me he did BARK today while I was gone.  She put a radio (talk station) in the hall very near my unit.  She said he was quiet after she did that.  Hmmmm.

Burke is going to get "snipped" on October 10.  (He'll be six months on October 14.)  Is it possible that that will help quell the barking?


----------



## Amyshojai

Neutering doesn't do anything about the barking that comes from the other end, LOL! It *might* reduce territorial barking but when he does this while you're gone, it's likely out of loneliness or boredom. If talk radio works, go for it! I also like harp music, as it acts like a natural sedative and puts pets to sleep. See www.petpause2000.com


----------



## Sandpiper

Thanks, Amy. I have two harp CDs already -- Seapeace and The Musical Sea of Tranquility. If neither of those work, I will order Susan Raimond's Wait For the Sunset. One of them should do the job . . . I hope.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Thanks, Amy. I have two harp CDs already -- Seapeace and The Musical Sea of Tranquility. If neither of those work, I will order Susan Raimond's Wait For the Sunset. One of them should do the job . . . I hope.


It'll put YOU to sleep, too! *s* I saw Sue Raimond speak at Tufts Animal Expo and she had video of a pet store with barking, parrot screaming, LOU LOUD animal sounds. Within 10 minutes of playing the CD, all were asleep. It was amazing.


----------



## cc84

Aww @ Burke's teeth. I saved Noah's and Jerry's also. ♥

On the subject of been snipped, my vet said they had to wait until Noah was 9 month old to see if the other one would descend, it hasn't so i think he's going to need a trip to the vets soon. Maybe that will quiten his barking at passing people also!


----------



## Amyshojai

cc84 said:


> Aww @ Burke's teeth. I saved Noah's and Jerry's also. ♥
> 
> On the subject of been snipped, my vet said they had to wait until Noah was 9 month old to see if the other one would descend, it hasn't so i think he's going to need a trip to the vets soon. Maybe that will quiten his barking at passing people also!


Yeah, sometimes they go up and down for a while...hope it comes down. Much less invasive. But still very do-able. *s*


----------



## Jane917

Now that you are all talking about it, I am reminded that Kona, the brittany, also had an undescended testicle. It was fixed when he was fixed.


----------



## Sandpiper

I may head over to the  Happy Dog Barkery  today. Burke has always scratched generally (no one place specifically) and sneezed since I got him. So allergic to something in his food? He's always eaten Solid Gold small breed puppy chow.


----------



## Pawz4me

Food allergies certainly do occur.  But they are much less common than flea and inhalant allergies (pollens, dust mites, etc.).  And flea and inhalant allergies can be much harder to control than food allergies.  It's relatively rare for a dog as young as Burke to exhibit symptoms of allergies.  Usually they don't show up until a dog is at least a year old.


----------



## Kimberly Llewellyn

Yes, get a dog. Then I can live vicariously through you! We lost our "baby girl" last year (Bichon) and I haven't had the courage to get another one. Then yesterday, a lost little dog in our neighborhood needed some TLC and I babysat it for the day. What a little lover! I kept an eye out for any vehicle patrolling the streets looking for him. And sure enough the owner driving up and down our street claimed him. A mom with two tiny kiddies in the back, all so happy they were about to burst into tears...which made me teary-eyed! The dog's name turned out to be Oliver. I'm like you. I'm now contemplating getting one. Yesterday made me realize I might be ready!


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I may head over to the  Happy Dog Barkery  today. Burke has always scratched generally (no one place specifically) and sneezed since I got him. So allergic to something in his food? He's always eaten Solid Gold small breed puppy chow.


Probably not allergies--he's a bit young. Generalized scratching isn't necessarily abnormal, nor is sneezing. Food allergies actually are probably the least common of the various kinds (fleas being the top, and atopy/inhaled the 2nd most common). Dogs are furry dust mops and can carry the allergens around with them, too, so just good grooming or maybe rinsing him off could relieve issues if it is dust/etc.


----------



## Amyshojai

Kimberly Llewellyn said:


> Yes, get a dog. Then I can live vicariously through you! We lost our "baby girl" last year (Bichon) and I haven't had the courage to get another one. Then yesterday, a lost little dog in our neighborhood needed some TLC and I babysat it for the day. What a little lover! I kept an eye out for any vehicle patrolling the streets looking for him. And sure enough the owner driving up and down our street claimed him. A mom with two tiny kiddies in the back, all so happy they were about to burst into tears...which made me teary-eyed! The dog's name turned out to be Oliver. I'm like you. I'm now contemplating getting one. Yesterday made me realize I might be ready!


So sorry for your loss--and HURRAY on the dog being reunited! I love happy endings.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke really does sneeze a lot.  At least he doesn't sneeze too hard.  I remember our Beagle (signature).  He didn't sneeze often, but when he did it was hard.  His nose would hit the floor.  Poor guy.

Thanks mucho.  I really didn't want to do the food changing thing.  

I don't have any carpeting in my condo -- all wood-looking something and a little ceramic tile.  In other words, nothing to hold the dust down.  (I'm not the greatest housekeeper.  )  Maybe it's dust in the air, etc.?


----------



## Amyshojai

Well...in most cases canine allergies show up in the skin, not in sneezes. Are you aware that sneezing also can be a doggy "laugh?" Maybe he's just happy!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Then Cooper and Caya laugh a lot because they sneeze a lot. 

Caya has learned a new trick. When Cooper has the toy she wants she disappears and returns with a more high value toy. We have seen her drop off tennis balls so she can snag the elk antler. This morning she disappeared and returned with a squeaky ball that she has hidden some place so that she could play tug with me. I get a chuckle out of the fact that she has hidden Cooper's favorites and is now returning them to get what she wants. 

Smart puppy.


----------



## Amyshojai

That's brilliant! Caya sure learned how to work the system, brains over brawn. Love it!

Of course, that's also a great way for "pet parents" to get the pooch to give up the stolen wallet or socks or whatever--offer a trade. *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Just back from a walk.  I knew it would happen . . . we ran into an area full of Canadian Goose doo doo doo doo.  Ugh!  I didn't give Burke a chance -- just pulled him through it.  Kept his head up.  I'm quite certain he didn't get any.

So I have been wondering . . . what would you do with a dog (more likely a puppy?) when the cicadas are out in force?  Every 17 years here, it's kinda forget goin' out in June.  (The last time was '07.  Don't have to worry about 'em again until 2024.)  They're pretty thick.  Some places, around certain trees, the ground is covered solid.  Saw a few here and there this summer.  Burke chomped on 'em.  And then swallowed.  Ugh!


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Just back from a walk. I knew it would happen . . . we ran into an area full of Canadian Goose doo doo doo doo. Ugh! I didn't give Burke a chance -- just pulled him through it. Kept his head up. I'm quite certain he didn't get any.
> 
> So I have been wondering . . . what would you do with a dog (more likely a puppy?) when the cicadas are out in force? Every 17 years here, it's kinda forget goin' out in June. (The last time was '07. Don't have to worry about 'em again until 2024.) They're pretty thick. Some places, around certain trees, the ground is covered solid. Saw a few here and there this summer. Burke chomped on 'em. And then swallowed. Ugh!


Yum, protein! LOL! Probably won't hurt him but is a bit disgusting. I saw a movie once about a horse race in the Sahara and the locust were the only thing saved the people/horses...they ate them.

Just keep his head up. And if worst comes to worst you could always fit him with a basket muzzle during cicada season.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya and Cooper love chasing them and playing with them. They are both protective of their toys and don't seem to get that batting them with their paws will kill them. I have not seen either one of them have a problem from chasing and eating the various bugs in our yard.


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## Sandpiper

But what about the goose doo?  I don't suppose that would actually hurt him either.  But that is even waaay more disgusting than the cicadas.  West Nile Virus killed off the crows that used to be in the area.  Very very few now.  I wish something would do the same to the Canadian Geese.  Canucks, could you call 'em home?  Please.


----------



## Amyshojai

Some bugs (cockroaches) can carry parasites like tapeworm. Bird poo is NOT a good thing to let Burke even sniff. Cryptosporidium and other nasty schtuff can be found in feces of various critters.


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## Sandpiper

Found another puppy tooth this morning.  

Burke has graduated from a puppy Kong to medium regular Kong (red).  What else can I stuff in it besides Kong Stuffin' and peanut butter?  I do need to start him with a stuffed Kong when I go out.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Found another puppy tooth this morning.
> 
> Burke has graduated from a puppy Kong to medium regular Kong (red). What else can I stuff in it besides Kong Stuffin' and peanut butter? I do need to start him with a stuffed Kong when I go out.


Anything he likes. I stick small hard treats inside, too, that are tough to "shake" out. A carrot stick can work. Philly cream cheese works well for soft stuff. Nice thing about peanut butter and Kong Stuffin' is they're sticky and stay inside the kong without making a mess. But anything that fits inside and Burke likes is fair game...you'll likely need to watch out for ants or spoilage depending on what you use, and run the kong through the dishwasher regularly.


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## MamaProfCrash

We don't put the PB in the Kong. We put it outside the top of the Kong on a treat. We will stick one treat in it and half a treat sticking out of it. Once Burke figures out how to get the treat out it won't last all that long. Caya and Cooper get excited when Kong comes out. They both go to their beds and sit. We don't let them start in on the Kong until we are walking out the door. The Wait command is great.

Unless youstuff the Kong and then pour in some water or broth to freeze you can count on Burke getting prettymuch everything out in the first 10-15 minutes, if not faster.


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## Sandpiper

I put liver Kong Stuffin' in the Kong and gave it to him in the crate just before I left.  Put on one of my harp CDs.  Was gone for about 1.5 hours.  When I got back, neighbor said he made just a little noise.  Ran into a neighbor from further down the hall.  She says she virtually never hears him.  That's good.

Burke is soooo cute . . . as long as he doesn't make much noise. 

Question:  When I'm walking around in my unit, he often follows me.  (Not that there's a lotta territory to cover in a one bedroom unit.)  When he is following me, I often feel his nose on my leg.  Is that accidental on his part?  Or is he trying to let me know that "I'm here"?


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## Amyshojai

Yay! GOOD boy, Burke!

Re: the nose-on-leg. Probably partly just wanting the contact, and partly Burke wanting the up-close-comfort-smell of you which to a puppy = SAFE.


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## MamaProfCrash

I trip over Cooper at least 7 times a day. He likes to be very close to the Hubby and I. He gets most distressed when we are both in the house but in different rooms. He will walk between the rooms and then eventually lay down at the half way point between the two of us. Some time he whines.


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## Sandpiper

LOL!  I had recorded George Clooney on Letterman last night.  During the interview, George made various noises with his mouth.  Dave asked him if he could combine them.  George made another sound.  Every time I play it, Burke turns quick towards the TV and his ears stand up.  George does that to me too!!


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## MamaProfCrash

My parents are in town visiting for a few days. I came home from work to be greeted with a hug, a kiss, and the news that Caya is a bad dog. While making breakfast, Mom left the kitchen with the bacon and a loaf of bread on the counter. When she returned, Caya was finishing off the bread having already eaten the bacon. The best part is that Caya now follows Mom around and sits at her feet wagging her tail hoping to be fed. Mom looks at her and scolds her which only increases Caya's tail wagging.

Cooper was off playing with a ball and is now the favored dog.

I love my puppies.


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson

ProfCrash said:


> My parents are in town visiting for a few days. I came home from work to be greeted with a hug, a kiss, and the news that Caya is a bad dog. While making breakfast, Mom left the kitchen with the bacon and a loaf of bread on the counter. When she returned, Caya was finishing off the bread having already eaten the bacon. The best part is that Caya now follows Mom around and sits at her feet wagging her tail hoping to be fed. Mom looks at her and scolds her which only increases Caya's tail wagging.
> 
> Cooper was off playing with a ball and is now the favored dog.
> 
> I love my puppies.


At least it wasn't the Thanksgiving turkey! 

Dogs are good at making us keep the counters clean. Mine taught my kids never to leave their cookies unattended.


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## Amyshojai

ROTFL! I always tell my begging pets, "You don't share YOUR bowl with me, why should I share mine with you?"

Doesn't make a difference though...


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

The good thing about having a pug means the dog is too short to reach your counters (unless you put chairs too close to your counter).  Gizmo, although incredibly stupid, has realized that the best place to sit when we're eating is w/in sight of our 2 yr old.  DD thinks it's funny to listen to Gizmo snort and scarf down food so she would throw food to her to watch her eat.  We stopped it by crating Gizmo when we were eating and after a few months, DD forgot how "funny" it was.


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## Amyshojai

Dogs do "get it" that little kids make for the best treat opportunities---just washing a messy face can offer advantages, LOL!


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## Leslie

ProfCrash said:


> Unless youstuff the Kong and then pour in some water or broth to freeze you can count on Burke getting prettymuch everything out in the first 10-15 minutes, if not faster.


This is what we do with Monday. Fill the Kong with her Turducken food, run some warm water through it, smoosh down the food and add some more, seal the end with peanut butter and stick in the freezer. We make up a bunch at once so there are always 2 or 3 frozen Kongs on hand. We pull them out them out when she needs to settle down...which is usually every evening around 6:30 pm. LOL.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Tonight I found a puppy canine tooth!!  

Slowing down Burke's eating seems to have cured the gas problem.  But at times there's another not so pleasant smell.  Not that kind of smell at all.  At times I do get a whiff of that sweet "puppy smell".  But then there's a kind of similar but different smell.  Not so pleasant.  I sniff his breath.  I don't know that that's what it is.  No, I don't brush his teeth.  I don't know.  Could his breath smell more because he is actually losing teeth?  I don't know that the smell is breath related at all though.


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## Pawz4me

A few other possibilities -- 

Check his ears.  Ear infections often give off a funky odor, especially if they're yeast infections.  The skin inside the flap and in the ear canal should be a healthy pale/light pinkish normal skin kinda color.  Look for redness and watch for him scratching or pawing at them or rubbing them on furniture or rugs.

Check the fur around his mouth.  Sometimes bits of food can get stuck and cause odor.

Anal glands.  Is he scooting his butt across the floor or doing excess licking anywhere in the area?


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## Sandpiper

He butt scooted for the first time that I've seen last Monday.  Took him to get anals cleaned the next day.  Not that.  Ears don't smell.  To me, the smell has a breath-related scent to it.  Yet when I've actually sniffed up close, it's OK.  I don't know.  Maybe my imagination?


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## Amyshojai

Could simply be transient gas--if he's not having flatulence he could burp now and then (silently) and the taint go away pretty quickly.

amy

ps., FWIW here's an article on how to express anal glands at home: http://puppies.about.com/b/2011/09/06/puppy-scooting-how-to-express-anal-glands.htm


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## Sandpiper

Burke was snipped this morning.  Took him in at 8:45.  Picked him up at 11:30.  Didn't know just what to expect from him today.  It must hurt?!  When we first got home he laid down for a short time.  But now for couple hours (plus?), he just stands or walks around very very slowly.  Must hurt to lay down?  Is that normal?  I called vet.  She didn't think anything of it.  She said he should be back to his old self by tomorrow or at most the next day.


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## Amyshojai

Part of the "slow" activity likely is the anesthesia still working it's way out of his system. Yes, I imagine it hurts! Did they give pain meds? That too can help keep 'em calm because you don't want Burke jumping around too much and pulling stitches/glue/whatever loose until healing begins.


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## Sandpiper

He's 'bout falling asleep on his feet.  Still has not laid down.

Only thing about pain on the bill:

LASER THERAPY SURG. PAIN MGT.  $20.00

What's that?  I didn't get any meds to give him.  His natural expression is sad.  I feel so bad for him when I look at him.


----------



## Amyshojai

The vet may have given him some analgesic before sending him home. Typically laser surgery has less pain anyway because it seals the nerve endings. *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Just like me, nothing much kills the appetite.  Vet said give him 1/3 of his normal supper today.  (Back to usual meals and water tomorrow.)  He cleaned his bowl.  No problem.  

ETA:  Just out of the tub.  When I get in the tub or wash my hair, I put Burke in the closed wire crate.  So I put him in.  Checked a few minutes later.  Still standing in there.  Now longer later, he's curled up (not tightly) sleeping in there.  Won't disturb him by opening crate.  I told him he'd feel better if he would just lay down and sleep.


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## Sandpiper

So Burke was snipped on Monday.  Doing OK.  Tail is up and wagging.  Lively walk.  Eating.  (That's never a problem.)  But could the surgery temporarily (or permanently?) effect frequency of urinating?  He's asking kind of often.  Again??  So soon??  He does when we get outside.  Info I got from vet said bowels would out of whack for couple - three days.  That is getting better / back to normal.  But what about peeing?


----------



## tessa

Sorry only have female dogs.  Did you try calling your vet? 


tessa


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## Sandpiper

I do like vet, but . . . .  In any case, closed on Wednesdays.  It's a one vet practice.  Not an emergency at this point, but I'm curious.


ETA:  He was out ten minutes ago.  Now he's nosing the bells.  "I don't think so, Burke."  There's something really wrong (which I doubt) or he's thinking whenever I want I'll just . . . .  "NOT gonna work, Burke."

Amy?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Having him wait works great, right up until he pees in the house. Granted, it is easier for me to say this because all I have to do is open the door and let the dogs into the back yard so it is not all that hard. 

I guess what I am saying is if he rigns the bell and you don't take him out you need to make sure that you are not angry at him if he pees in the house.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

I believe if there is enough backyard for the dog to move around; Yes, one should have a dog. If it is kept indoors most of the time, it is better to have a cat. Otherwise it is animal abuse, IMO.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I believe if there is enough backyard for the dog to move around; Yes, one should have a dog. If it is kept indoors most of the time, it is better to have a cat. Otherwise it is animal abuse, IMO.


I strongly disagree. There are many dogs that do well indoors. As long as a dog is shown love and is well cared for it does not matter where the dog lives. Burke goes outside for potty breaks and walks on a regular basis. He is small enough to be able to play fetch inside and he goes to a doggie play group. He is feed regualrly, groomed, and shown love all while living in a condo. Sandpipper wisely choose a dog that is likely to do well in a condo.

There are plenty of cats that would love to be outside on a regular basis and are kept in apartments.


----------



## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> I guess what I am saying is if he rigns the bell and you don't take him out you need to make sure that you are not angry at him if he pees in the house.


That happened a couple weeks ago. He nosed the bells. I kept saying, "Couple more minutes . . . couple more minutes." Turned out it was too many minutes. Not his fault.



*DrDln* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I believe if there is enough backyard for the dog to move around; Yes, one should have a dog. If it is kept indoors most of the time, it is better to have a cat. Otherwise it is animal abuse, IMO.


I'm not a cat person. I live in a second floor condo. I don't think Burke is suffering abuse.


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## Amyshojai

Been out all day and just now seeing this. The surgery COULD have impacted urination, but not likely. He's probably sensitive "down there" and that may have him thinking he needs to go more often than necessary. *shrug* If he DOES have an accident and is having to urinate more frequently do get him checked--there might be some early cystitis going on. And yep the vet could offer the best idea of what might be going on (I gotta be careful ya know, cuz I'm not a vet and don't even play one on TV, LOL!).

Dr.Din, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion, on the other "paw" is that leaving dogs primarily in a back yard without interaction, is abuse of a social creature that thrives on interaction.

I suspect we'd meet somewhere in the middle on the question and our dogs would be happy, LOL! You can see my critters in my avatar--both are indoor pets. The cat rules.


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## Sandpiper

I was out for about 1 3/4 hours today.  Couple stops including Target for drugs.  (I very rarely get colds, etc.  One per year, if that.  I got a cold.)  Neighbor told me he BARKed.    I have the harp music CD on order you suggested, Amy.  I've been playing a harp music CD I already have.  Trainer suggested a citronella collar.  Ordered that today from Amazon.  I have to go out for about 1.5 hours both tomorrow and Friday.


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I was out for about 1 3/4 hours today. Couple stops including Target for drugs. (I very rarely get colds, etc. One per year, if that. I got a cold.) Neighbor told me he BARKed.  I have the harp music CD on order you suggested, Amy. I've been playing a harp music CD I already have. Trainer suggested a citronella collar. Ordered that today from Amazon. I have to go out for about 1.5 hours both tomorrow and Friday.


Citronella collar for training not to bark--yes, can work. Avoid the "shock" collars. Tone collars also can work but for aversives/barking the citronella ones were most effective in a Cornell study. Just one caution--other dogs barking can also cause the collar to go off and "punish" the dog even if he hasn't barked.


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## Sandpiper

I don't think nearby dog barking would be a problem.  I only see using it when he's wire crated and I'm not here.  Otherwise barking isn't really a problem.  Only other times he barks is sometimes when he meets people (not always) or if person is carrying a big bag or the like.  Person in unit below me is in a wheelchair.  If we see her in the hall, chair can set him off.  And sometimes when we're in a pet store (checking out?).  Although once he went into local Ace Hardware with me.  He behaved very well.    So problem barking is really just when he's here alone . . . but not every time (I don't think.)


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## Pawz4me

You can get a voice-activated recorder so you'll know for sure how much (or little) he's barking while you're gone. I think they start around $30 or so. And there's software called Bark Sentry that you can leave running while you're gone.

Bark Sentry


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I don't think nearby dog barking would be a problem. I only see using it when he's wire crated and I'm not here. Otherwise barking isn't really a problem. Only other times he barks is sometimes when he meets people (not always) or if person is carrying a big bag or the like. Person in unit below me is in a wheelchair. If we see her in the hall, chair can set him off. And sometimes when we're in a pet store (checking out?). Although once he went into local Ace Hardware with me. He behaved very well.  So problem barking is really just when he's here alone . . . but not every time (I don't think.)


I like the idea of the voice actuation recorder, too--just so you know what DOES trigger the barking. It may be one neighbor is particularly sensitive to barking or it could be Burke is being a very GOOD dog and warning away intruders. *s*

Re: the neighbor in a wheelchair--does the person like dogs? this to me sounds like a great opportunity to intro Burke to this person and work through his concern about the wheelchair. He/she could toss treats, for example, or you could offer a special treat BEFORE he starts barking--to associate the sight/sound of the wheelchair with something positive.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

Pawz4me said:


> You can get a voice-activated recorder so you'll know for sure how much (or little) he's barking while you're gone. I think they start around $30 or so. And there's software called Bark Sentry that you can leave running while you're gone.
> 
> Bark Sentry





Amyshojai said:


> I like the idea of the voice actuation recorder, too--just so you know what DOES trigger the barking. It may be one neighbor is particularly sensitive to barking or it could be Burke is being a very GOOD dog and warning away intruders. *s*
> 
> Re: the neighbor in a wheelchair--does the person like dogs? this to me sounds like a great opportunity to intro Burke to this person and work through his concern about the wheelchair. He/she could toss treats, for example, or you could offer a special treat BEFORE he starts barking--to associate the sight/sound of the wheelchair with something positive.


This is actually a good idea. My MIL told me that when DH was a boy, they had a dog that one of the neighbors would complain about barking. MIL would always apologize and do whatever she could to keep him from barking while he was outside (the backyard has a view of the sidewalk where people would walk by and lots of pigeons flying by, so lots to bark @). One day, she called MIL and really ripped into her about how her dog was barking and she should "shut the mutt up" before she "did something" about it. MIL calmly asked her if she would like to talk to the dog b/c he had been in the house and sitting next to her most of the morning. That was the last time the neighbor called to complain. It turned out, she was hearing someone else's dog and thought it was MIL's since she could SEE MIL's dog (and couldn't see the barker).


----------



## Angela

My new puppy (anniversary present from DH) was snipped on October 4th. We were experiencing the same reactions with potty habits. Oliver was alert, active and his normal self the day after, but day 3 he constantly wanted to go outside. The vet had given us pain meds to be used as needed but after one dose on the first day, there wasn't enough left. I called the vet and he said his behavior was normal. Being a puppy, the pain or uncomfortableness of the procedure could confuse him and that is why he kept wanting to go outside. I went to pick up additional pain meds but never had to give them to him. By day 4 he was my sweet playful pup once again.

Many of you know I lost my sweet Lhasa, Harley, last April. I may not have been completely ready to get a new pup because I was still grieving Harley's loss. I still get weepy when I make the drive to the vet and I have been behaving like a nervous brand new mom and panic over everything thing with Oliver. Partly because of Harley and partly because Oliver is a Maltese and weighs less than 4 pounds!

All in all, having Oliver has been a blessing and he makes me laugh all the time. Everyone should have a dog!!


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## MamaProfCrash

(Hugs Angela)

Oscar sounds like a good pup who should bring much happiness and joy.

I get a chuckle out of my dogs on a daily basis. There are two elk antlers but they both like one better then the other. So one is pretty much new and the other one is about 1/3 chewed through. They stare at the dog who has the bone and inevitably take it away from them. The best is when they take the second elk antler and lie on top of it so that the other dog cannot get it while they chew on the favored elk antler.


----------



## Angela

I have been thinking about the elk antlers for Oliver, but they don't appear to be available locally. We are still very much in the teething stage.


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## Sandpiper

I don't see the woman in the wheelchair often enough (so therefore know her enough) to work with her in the chair.

Hope to not need Bark Sentry cuz I'm not techie.  But if I have to . . . .

Back from being out for app. 1.5 hours.  Gave him stuffed Kong, as usual, before I left.  Didn't hear any barking as I walked down the hall and out the door.  No barking going on when I got back.  In my unit, then had to go out of my unit for couple minutes.  No barking during all that.  Hmmmmm.  I knew and am coming to realize NOT MAKING EYE CONTACT can make a (huge?) difference.  When I first left and during in and out when I got back, I didn't talk to him or make eye contact or anything.  That seems to make a difference.


----------



## Amyshojai

Aha! That's a great clue. Direct eye contact can be a "challenge" and Burke may want to contest (talk back)--or it may simply signal him that he has a chance to get attention if you're looking at him. 

So much fun that all our pets are such individuals.


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## MamaProfCrash

Angela said:


> I have been thinking about the elk antlers for Oliver, but they don't appear to be available locally. We are still very much in the teething stage.


Caya and Cooper love the elk antlers. They are a bit pricey but well worth it as a special toy every once in a while.


----------



## Sandpiper

Duh!  Burke has his Kong and another toy or two in the crate with him when I leave.  I do have a piece of antler which he likes.  I'll make sure he has that when I go out.  I have to go out for an hour plus tomorrow at 11:00.  We'll see what happens . . . .

Seems peeing is getting back to normal.  No problems all night.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is six months old today!!  (It's October 14 in Chicago.)  

Got an e-mail from the breeder.  She received copy of receipt for neutering I sent her.  She's having his AKC registration put into my name.  Burke, sweet puppy, it's officially you and me!


----------



## mom2karen

Congrats on being official!

What would you want in a dream dog run?  We're redoing our yard and I want ideas for our dog run.  It will be about 8'x40'.  It opens to our house through a doggie door and will have a gate to the back yard.


----------



## Sandpiper

Dang!  I was out for a while today.  Wasn't barking when I left or when I got home.  But apparently he was during.  Neighbor had radio going in the hall again.  

I look him in the face and feel like I should be able to reason with him to be quiet when I'm gone.  I have to go out sometimes.  I promise I will come back.  He doesn't understand.  

Or I try to figure out the right combo of things to do before I leave so he will be quiet.  Citronella collar is coming Monday.  Something has got to work.


Had to go to a local shopping center.  One of the stores was having an event -- BREW was there.  BREW = Beagle Rescue - Education and Welfare.  I walked in and there were to Beagles in front of me.  Oooooooh.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

I love dog rescues. 

Burke is a dog, he is going to bark from time to time. I understand why you don't want him to bark but I would not be too upset about the barking.


----------



## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Burke is a dog, he is going to bark from time to time. I understand why you don't want him to bark but I would not be too upset about the barking.


Condo neighbors?! She / they have been good about it. But there will come a point, I imagine . . . .


----------



## MamaProfCrash

I understand why you are trying to stop him from barking. You are being a good neighbor. Have they said how long he barks for and how loud it is? I am sure that Caya and Cooper bark when we are gone. We are lucky enough to live in a house so it is less problematic.


----------



## Pawz4me

Teaching a dog to not do something while you're not in his presence can be difficult to impossible.  I'm not fond of aversive training methods, but this is one instance where I think corrective aids like the citronella collar are often necessary.  I don't think citronella collars are more humane than a "shock" collar, though.  I suspect from a dog's point of view a "shock" collar might be much less aversive since it's over and done with quickly (as a proper correction should be), whereas the citronella lingers and lingers and must smell incredibly overpowering to a dog's sensitive nose.


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## Amyshojai

I agree with Pawz4me and am not a fan of remote trainers as they really do need the "human touch" and timing to be the most effective. Here's my advice on curbing puppy barking.

http://puppies.about.com/od/BehaviorProblems/a/Puppy-Barking.htm


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## Sandpiper

Amy, I think you referenced that site before.  One of the suggestions is the citronella collar.  Not that there isn't other times when he barks, but the problem is when I'm gone.  I imagine it can be ongoing for a while.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yes, I probably posted that link before and I realize the problem is when you're not there. But my point is that in order for the tone collar or citronella collar to work correctly--for Burke to UNDERSTAND that "bark=stink" -- you need to first teach him that connection. *s* To do that you must be present. Ideally you are there to trigger the tone or the spray, and then later once he understands the concept it can be left on while you're gone as a reminder.

Just sticking the collar on him won't work if he doesn't "get it' that barking makes it spray. Heck, the spray might make him bark at it again, LOL! But he's a smart little guy and should learn quickly. After they "get it" dogs often just need to have the tone or spray collar on as a reminder...and some dogs are so smart they know they CAN bark without punishment when the collar isn't on. 

I think it's good to know in advance some of the potentials. Your trainer should be able to help you with the collar training.


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## Sandpiper

I was perusing Dogster and came across  this topic. I've been wondering the same thing myself at times.


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## Amyshojai

"Where did the fun go---in the old days---"

Well, in the "old days" people were more dog savvy and accepted that dogs were dogs. A kid getting bit for teasing the dog got what he deserved (as long as it wasn't more than a nip, of course) but today a dog that just growls at a kid for taking his toy gets the dog in deep doo doo.

But in the "old days" dogs rarely spent the majority of their time indoors/sharing your bed. Dogs lived a more rural life with acres to roam---and the dogs that acted badly (chased cows, killed chickens, bit a kid) got taken out back behind the barn and shot. People didn't try to rehab or re-train, they'd just re-place with another dog. Dogs also didn't have all the vaccinations available and rarely were spay/neutered and likely died younger from disease or injury.

Today dogs live in an artificial unnatural environment--often crowded with other pets/people in too small spaces with little opportunity to exercise and be "dogs." A dog park isn't a natural thing, either---it's a compromise. 

It's a trade off. In order for dogs to be protected from 'non-dog-savvy' people our dogs need to learn how to behave in this artificial environment. *shrug*


----------



## Sandpiper

Back to barking.  Neighbor suggested I go out for at least an hour every day to get him used being alone.  Do you think that would help relieve anxiety and get him used to being alone?  And I have a parakeet-size bird (in a cage, of course).  Burke "knows" Lucy Anna.  The cage and crate are not too far apart as it is.  Cage is 23" off the floor.  Do you think it might help stop barking if Burke has Lucy Anna on the floor next to him?  

Some time ago I got Burke a large Orka Flyer.  He loves to dig on it.  Or I put it over a small treat.  Then he's got some thing to really work at.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Back to barking. Neighbor suggested I go out for at least an hour every day to get him used being alone. Do you think that would help relieve anxiety and get him used to being alone?


Possibly, it depends on WHEN he barks and why. This is all guessing from my end--but if he's barking immediately after you leave and then settles down, that's different than him being quiet at first and then being aroused by "something" and again barking. I can't advise unless we really know the trigger (your absence or something else DURING your absence).



> And I have a parakeet-size bird (in a cage, of course). Burke "knows" Lucy Anna. The cage and crate are not too far apart as it is. Cage is 23" off the floor. Do you think it might help stop barking if Burke has Lucy Anna on the floor next to him?


NO! Sorry but even though he "knows" the bird, there's a big difference between him ignoring or being "nice" while you're there, and being alone and having access to the cage at his level. Burke is a terrier and terriers (most all hunting dogs) "trigger" on movement. He might not have the same focus as a bird dog breed but I still would not be comfortable doing this. Heck, it might even be the bird doing something that gets him barking. *shrug*
[/quote]


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Sorry, couldn't resist


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## Amyshojai

ROTFL!!! That's great!

I'm sorry if my posts haven't been helpful--but as you say, there's just so darn much that could be contributing. And it's sort of like--"stop that baby from reaching out and grabbing stuff."  It's what babies do.

Dogs bark, some more than others and almost always there's a reason. If it's from boredom--you counter with stuff that relieves the boredom. If it's from a noise--find a way to get rid of or temper the noise. If it's from loneliness--maybe music will help.

At my house it would be the cat waiting until the humans are gone, and then hurling cat curses and thumbing her hose while pelting the dog with hairballs.


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## Sandpiper

His barking when I'm gone really seems to vary.  Sometimes starts right away and sometimes not.  Sometimes he's barking when I get home and sometimes not.  Don't always know what happens in between.  Depends on whether neighbor is home or not.  

Of course (?), when I say bird on the floor next to crate -- that's bird in the cage on the floor next to crate.  Had a budgie parakeet for a number of years during Beagle's life.  Beagle got nipped on the nose a time or two.  He was very tentative when the parakeet was running around on the floor.  Parakeet would threaten and Beagle would back off.  We would only allow them freedom at the same time when someone was watching.  I know I could not do with this Burke and Lucy Anna.  Lucy Anna is a type of parakeet, but not regular budgie.  Rosey Bourke parakeets DO NOT bite.  They simply do not.  Burke's nose would not be in danger.  Lucy Anna definitely would.


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## Amyshojai

I used to have a Spectacle Amazon parrot with my first German Shepherd--and Venus (the bird) definitely had a formidable beak and I left her wings intact just in case so she could always stay out of reach of the dog. He never offered to hurt her but like you, I was careful to always supervise.


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## Jane917

Alle Meine Entchen said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist


I love this.


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## Sandpiper

Lovin' Amazon.  I ordered the citronella collar from Amazon.  Got it this morning.  On the box (not shipping box) says it's not for anxiety-related barking.  Called Premier.  It's  not.  Want to return it to Amazon.  Can't be returned shipped because of HAZMAT laws.  But because that info was not on Amazon's web page for the product, Amazon is issuing me full refund -- and of course I keep the product.  So be aware if you buy anything from Amazon that involves any kind of chemical(s)?

Love Amazon.


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## Amyshojai

I love Premier products, too. *s*


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## Sandpiper

I think I'm on my way to quiet?!  (Knock on wood.  Don't want to speak too soon.)  So I searched (Bing, FWIW) "how do I stop separation anxiety barking".  Looked at a couple sites.  Realized why it happened and suggested ways to stop it.  Seemed to have kinda worked this afternoon.  Next few days will tell when I go out.  I'm feeling hopeful about it.  Involved another staring contest with Burke.


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## MamaProfCrash

I love dogs.

Caya has figured out that we are more likely to play fetch then tug. This morning she picks up big red ball (Kong ball) and brings it to me. I throw it. She comes back with her rings.  We play tug. I had to reward her intelligence.

I am getting more concerned with her counter surging. We are good about keeping food out of her range. This week she managed to open the trash can and remove a bad sausage to eat, without knocking off the trash can top or toppling the trash can and she has taken a, thankfully, not sharp knife off the counter to lick.

She was at 50 pounds 6 months ago so we have cut her back on food to get her to 45 pounds, and she is close. She has always counter surfed or taken advantage of available food. She has never taken silverware before to lick. Is this a sign that we are not feeding her enough? The dog food recommends 2 to 2 3/4 cups. We are giving her 1 1/2 cups a day, in two feedings. She also gets 1 1/2 Advantage treats and peanut butter in her Kong when we leave for the day and an Advantage small dog teeth cleaning treat when I get home. So she is getting treats which should make up for the 1/2 up less of dog food we are giving her.

We think that she is part beagle, god knows she eats like one and has an iron stomach. She has plenty of energy, she runs and plays with Cooper, she roams the yard smelling stuff and wrestling, and she plays a mean game of tug. She is not giving any signs that she is underfed and lethargic. 

My guess is that I am over thinking things again and that she is just acting like a dog. Cooper does not counter surf, he never has. He also came to the rescue from his home with his litter. They were well cared for and pudgy. Caya, at about four months, was found in the road and brought to the pound. She was skinny, not starving, but skinny when we got her.


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## Angela

Sandpiper said:


> I think I'm on my way to quiet?! (Knock on wood. Don't want to speak too soon.) So I searched (Bing, FWIW) "how do I stop separation anxiety barking". Looked at a couple sites. Realized why it happened and suggested ways to stop it. Seemed to have kinda worked this afternoon. Next few days will tell when I go out. I'm feeling hopeful about it. Involved another staring contest with Burke.


Glad you are making headway. Oliver doesn't bark when we leave, his barking is usually at sudden noises or items that get moved. Last night it was the ice maker and then his reflection in the patio door and this morning it was the chair in the pool that last night's storm blew over.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash, I think you've got a normal dog that just loves food and uses that beagle-like radar (aka NOSE) to sniff out the bestest stuff ever. Smart doggy, too! These types of canines turn us into better house keepers to try and manage the "dangers" they can get into. I've seen Xrays of dogs that swallowed whole knives, yikes! 

Dogs by nature are scavengers. That's how the early wolves connected with humans, being camp followers and cleaning up the garbage. So in a way, Caya is just doing her duty, LOL!


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## MamaProfCrash

That is what I thought. Last night was the first time she went after a knife and that freaked me out. She has taken whole things of cheese, whle things of bread, a pound of bacon, sausage, and veggies but never a knife before. And Cooper does not counter surf.

For a smaller dog (45 pounds and not even to my knees) she has impressive range. We have been surprised that she has not figured out how to get Cooper to help her given that he is 15 pounds heavier and about three inches taller.


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> For a smaller dog (45 pounds and not even to my knees) she has impressive range. We have been surprised that she has not figured out how to get Cooper to help her given that he is 15 pounds heavier and about three inches taller.


Shhhh! Don't give her any ideas, LOL!


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## MamaProfCrash

Too late, we have voiced that a few times with her in range. We are counting on her wanting to eat all the food and knowing that Cooper would probably take whatever he found all for himself. He does love his dinner and his treats. He just doesn't counter surf. (winks)

Cooper is motivated by tennis balls and only tennis balls. Caya is motivated by food, food, and more food.


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## Sandpiper

ProfCrash said:


> Caya is motivated by food, food, and more food.


That IS a Beagle. Kinda Border Terrier too, but not quite so much. And Burke definitely does not have the nose of a Beagle.


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## Sandpiper

I think we got success?!      

Was gone for about 30 minutes twice today.  First time I left, he started barking almost as soon as I closed the unit door.  Went back in.  Stared him in the eyes.  Finger up.  "QUIET."  Stare.  Stare.  Stare.  Then I left again.  He was quiet.  Second time I stared him in the eyes and sternly told him QUIET before I left.  He was.  Both times when I got back I let him out of crate, made a fuss, and told him he was a GOOD BOY.  All kind of the opposite of generally what's considered the way to go.  

Friday I have to go out for about three hours (or more?).  He will go play at the Bellyrub Klub then.


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## Jane917

If you guys think a beagle is food motivated, you must have never had a spaniel!


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## Amyshojai

LOL Jane917--I think that LOTS of dogs are foodies. Labs are another.

But I know when interviewing the pet food company folks they've always told me they won't use beagles or labs for "taste testers" any more because they'll eat anything--AND because they're smart enough in food comparison tests to eat just a bit (back and forth) from each bowl so they get to eat it ALL.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Amyshojai said:


> LOL Jane917--I think that LOTS of dogs are foodies. Labs are another.
> 
> But I know when interviewing the pet food company folks they've always told me they won't use beagles or labs for "taste testers" any more because they'll eat anything--AND because they're smart enough in food comparison tests to eat just a bit (back and forth) from each bowl so they get to eat it ALL.


Funny story about my lab. My parents got a choc lab when I was around 13ish yrs old. By the time she was an old dog, she had settled down (there was the time she got into the wedding cake my mom had baked a couple hours before the wedding) food wise. She had learned that my dad was the soft touch (I really have no problem looking into puppy dog eyes and saying "no". DD is learning this and is not happy w/ it). I heard my dad complain on more than one occasion, after he retired, that he was so tired of making breakfast for Sammy Joe. I always thought that was odd, b/c she was a dry dog food kind of girl. Turns out, dad would make pancakes every morning and would make extras just for the dog. Sammy got so used to having @ least 1 pancake every morning (in addition to the dry food mom gave her) that she would follow dad around and annoy him until he feed it to her. He could never understand why no one ever gave him any sympathy for his plight.










This is a pic of Sammy Joe. She's about 8ish here.


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## MamaProfCrash

heheheh. Did your Father ever try making one batch a week and putting them in the fridge? That way the dog got her pancake and your Dad didn't have to make them fresh each day.

Caya tries the puppy eyes but I have learned to comment on how cute they are and pet her but not give her food. She is less willing to accept a pet when she wants to play tug. She will bring her rings tome and drop them in front of me. If I don't pick them up to play, she will pick them up and hook them around my foot. If that doesn't work, she takes them off my foot and puts them in my lap. All followed by a polite sit, cute puppy dog eyes, and then a bit of whining.

When Cooper sees Caya doing this he finds the closest tennis ball and comes over to play fetch. If you try and play tug with Caya and Cooper does not have a ball, he will decide it is time to play with Caya which leads to loud barking and growling because Caya wants to play tug not wrestle with Cooper. 

I am well aware that the dogs have me well trained.


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## Sandpiper

Burke was snipped Monday, October 10.  Do dogs dribble for a while after that surgery?  Just this afternoon noticing a little here, a little there.  Hard to see it on my floor.  No carpeting.


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## Meb Bryant

I would certainly dribble....


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## Pawz4me

Is he still wanting to go out as frequently as he was?  If so, and combined with the dribbling -- I'd be inclined to run a urine sample by the vet's office to make sure he doesn't have some kind of infection going on.


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## Angela

Sandpiper said:


> Burke was snipped Monday, October 10. Do dogs dribble for a while after that surgery? Just this afternoon noticing a little here, a little there. Hard to see it on my floor. No carpeting.


I was wondering the same thing. Oliver was snipped on October 4 and he always seems to be wet.


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## Sandpiper

Pawz4me said:


> Is he still wanting to go out as frequently as he was? If so, and combined with the dribbling -- I'd be inclined to run a urine sample by the vet's office to make sure he doesn't have some kind of infection going on.


Since snipping, sometimes his going out seems normal and other times asking more than he did . . . just after coming in from a trip out?! Knock on wood, haven't noticed any wet on the floors today. Keeping any eye on him. If it happens again, will call vet and probably make a trip there.

I asked my trainer (she has some vet / vet assistant training too) about it. She said incontinence due to snipping is rare. So that's probably not reason for any piddles and dribbles and drops.

I heard from someone on the floor above me that Burke was barking today while I was gone. Still working on that. Not long after I got him, there was a bad storm in the area and MANY in the building went down into the garage for safety for a while. I went with Burke. So many met him. Everyone likes him and thinks he soooo cute. Good PR.


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## Amyshojai

Lots of folks meeting Burke is a VERY good thing--socialization for him, schmooze time/PR for the people.  

Coming late to this re: the snipping. It isn't a common thing for wetting and "snipping" to be related. Remember he's still a baby and submissive urination may be an issue for some--or they may simply be boys-being-boys and starting to mark. "Snipping" doesn't totally eliminate that (although Burke is a weeee bit young yet for that).


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## FunLondon

Sandpiper said:


> I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me.
> 
> I came a little close yesterday. At least it made me a little more sure about it. Went to local pet shop to get bird seed. They always have a few mixed breed puppies. Couple weeks ago I dreamed that I got a dachshund. So yesterday in the pet shop they had mixed min dachsie / min pin. I sure thought about it, but no.
> 
> There is a certain breed I want. Border Terrier. I had one 40 years ago. No dog since. Beagles and Borders -- my favs. (Borders book store also favorite. )
> 
> This is my long gone Border, Ribbon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a condo. (Dogs under 20 lbs. permitted. Full grown Borders are app. 15 lbs.) No longer work. Home a lot. NO family.
> 
> I don't remember how we housebroke our Beagle and Border. Today it's generally done with a crate / crate training? Borders are smart little things. I don't think it would be too much of a problem (hopefully). It's said of Borders -- they're a big dog in a little dog's body.


YES! The last dog we had was a black lab and Australian shepherd mix. His name was Lucky and, as I look back, I think we were actually the lucky ones. He was loving, gentle, very intelligent and quite handsome. We loved him dearly and enjoyed him every day he was with us. I wish everyone could have that experience and I think a lot of dog owners do.


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## MamaProfCrash

I am so excited!

I took Caya and Cooper with me to softball today so that Cooper could meet my friend and her dog. Paula and Tucker are going to be checking in on Caya and Cooper while my Hubby and I are out of town for a day. 

Cooper is not good with other dogs when he is on a leash. Meeting Tucker confirmed that. Caya knows Tucker, he was her foster brother for a week and she has spent Christmas with him. Caya was all excited (Paula got an excitement pee). Cooper went nuts. Paula took Caya and Tucker for a walk while I calmed down Cooper. Then I took him out to meet Tucker. We spent 15 minutes walking towards Tucker, Cooper starting to pull on the leash and bark, and my turning him around and walking away. The good news was that it took longer each time for Cooper to bark but that he was still lunging at Tucker whenever he got in range.

Paula is great and put Tucker in her car since there was no way to safely keep the three dogs together. I was bummed.

After the game, I met Paula and Tucker at a dog park. In the past, Cooper has been awful at dog parks. He would bark, hide, and then throw up. I was hoping that being 6 months older since our last dog park visit that Cooper would be better. He was not good on the leash when dogs were near, no surprise there, but he was great at the dog park. He barked a bit but he happily sniffed other dogs, wrestled a bit, and ran around. It was hard to get him to come even with a treat because he was having so much fun.

So the leash reactive thing is bad and we need to work on that but he did so well in the dog park that I know I can feel comfortable having him around other dogs. His hackles never went up, his tail dropped in between his legs a few times, but mainly he romped and played. He even had a good time with Tucker.

So there is work to be done but I have hope that one day we will be able to take Cooper out for walks and to play with other dogs without any drama.

Caya on the other hand is pretty good on the leash and gets overwhelmed at the dog park but she seems to enjoy it when given time.


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## Amyshojai

Wow, that's a mix of good news and good news--great that you recognize the leash reactivity and are working on it. You might try having a favorite toy handy with you during leash walks (let Cooper know you've got it) and he ONLY gets it when another dog is in sight. Changes the context from "scary" to "I get my ball! woo-woo!" association. Terrific on the dog park experience, too.

Leash reactivity has to do with that flight-or-fight instinct. A leash takes away the one option so the dog gets defensive or even offensive to keep the potential "danger" a safe distance away.


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## MamaProfCrash

We have tried the ball on walks in the neighborhood. He is actually a lot better on his home turf on the leash, probably because he knows the area. He barks and lunges but I have never thought that he would attack a dog. When he saw Caya with Tucker he went nuts. So we know that he was trying to protect Caya and being on the leash didn't help.

We have used the toy on walks and had mixed results. I think we took too long of a walk and he got too wound up and nothing was helping. But for the first part of the walk squeaky ball was a great distraction.

The dog park excites me because I saw that he could behave normally around dogs who are not Caya and that he could have a really good time. That gives me hope. For a long time I thought he would have to be a home only dog. I know it will take work but I think we can get him to a good place.


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## Sandpiper

Sometimes ya just gotta get tough. In the past when I've used either upright or hand vacuum . . . BARK BARK BARK. So he gets closed in the crate in the other room. That's all a nuisance.

So today he was closed in the wire crate. First got out and turned on hand vac in the same room. BARK BARK.

QUIET. QUIET.

And so he was. (Even used hand vac in the crate while he was still in it.)

Did the same with the upright. (Not in the crate.) He was quiet.

Ya just gotta get tough.

Still working on separation anxiety barking.


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## Amyshojai

Making progress! My Magical-Dawg still wants to challenge the "vacuum monster." *s* Instead I sic him on one of his stuffed toys and he has a ball growling and biting and shaking that instead.


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## MamaProfCrash

So Caya gave us quite the scare last night and had a bit of an adventure...

Our property is fenced in so the dogs can run freely. There are three possible escape points, two we can control, one we cannot. The gate is kept locked and is hard for us to move, never mind the dogs. Then there is the electric companies large green box in the back yard. It is about a foot away from the fence and would be hard for the dogs to use for escape. Cooper might be able to pull it off but he would have to be pretty motivated. Then there is the wood pile. The one that as soon as I saw the dogs standing on top of right next to the fence I told my Hubby had to be moved and he said it didn't because the dogs would never jump off it into the back yard.

The one that Caya jumped off of last night so she could chase the fix in the neighbors back yard. 

Yeah, that one.

So I am brushing my teeth when I hear Cooper barking like mad. I send the Hubby to bring in the dogs, barking at 11:30 PM is not cool. It takes him five minutes, Cooper is barking the entire time, and he comes to get the headlamp from my night stand. "Why do you need a head lamp?" "I can't find Caya." "She climbed over the fence didn't she" "Looks like it."

The neighbors yard exits onto a near by street. 15 minutes later Hubby comes back carrying Caya. Fortuently she is fine. He first spotted the fox running across the neighboring street and then Caya sitting under a street lamp looking a bit scared and confused. She wasn't shaking but she wasn't moving either.

I am guessing she either saw or scented the fox (part beagle) and went to find the scent. In the heat of the moment she jumped off the pile and got through the fence on the neighbors yard. At some point in time she realized that she had no clue where she was and stopped. She was not chasing the fox, thank god.

Thank god that Cooper was upset to see Caya take off and kept barking. It only took about 15 minutes to figure out what had happened and find Caya. 

We are moving the wood pile this weekend. Maybe the Hubby will listen to me when I say "Dogs can get out that way".

On the positive side, 10 minutes after coming home Caya wanted to go back outside. There was the "I want to go out bark" and much sitting in front of the door with tail wagging and her best puppy dog eyes. Right now she doesn't og out without supervision. I am contemplating taking some of the hot peppers and rubbing them along the fence line to help deter her interest in that area. We have one hot pepper that is used to stop rampaging elephants, I think it might deter a puppy dog who has decided she had a fine adventure.


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## Amyshojai

At my house, it's chasing coyotes. *sigh* So glad this turned out for the best!

I wonder if anyone has used this or a similar product, the "coyote roller" attached to the tops of fences to keep dogs in/wildlife out? Mixed reviews on the YouTube demo video but does seem like it could work. Here's a link to the website:

http://www.coyoteroller.com/home


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## MamaProfCrash

I am working hard not to be angry with the dogs. I know that what they did was dogs being dogs and I cannot punish them for it but I am pissed.

Once every other week we have the house cleaned. On that Friday we leave the dogs in the guest bedroom. Cooper peed the first three or four times we did this and has chewed up more then enough sheets (we bought cheap ones at target and he poops out the sheet material so we know it is him). We could deal with that. The last four times the sheets have been torn up but there has been no pee.

Today I left them, they had been outside and peed and pooped, with their toys and Kongs and beds. All normal. I came home to find the carpet ripped up, dog feces every where, someone pooped (based on the size I would say Cooper) and they had spread it all over the room. There is poop on the bed, the rug, and their dog beds. The Kong dog bed was inundated with pee and had to be thrown away. The trampoline style bed had to be taken outside to have the pee and poop cleaned off. I think the carpet is done for but I am waiting for my husband to come home to decide that.

I know that I can't punish them, they wouldn't know what they were in trouble for. I have no idea what we are going to do when the cleaning people come. Doggie day care is one option but that is $50 for the two of them. Good socialization thought... Cooper hates the crate so that is not really an option. Well, it is if we don't take into consideration that when he was crated he was so anxious that he slobbered all over the place and pooped a decent amount and tried to break out.

Not a good dog week at my house hold.


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## Leslie

Crash,

Some of the other more experienced dog people will probably have other ideas, but I'll throw this out based on what we have experienced with Monday. Have you taken any sort of obedience class? Or talked with a dog professional? When we first got Monday and we felt a little frantic with her jumping on the counters and windows, I got in touch with Carolyn from Dogsense. She came to the house for a one hour consultation and then we took the obedience class. While it's called obedience and we learned plenty of that, I think it's much more about dog psychology and learning the best way to think through and problem solve, especially around behaviors that are problematic. It sounds like these two are a handful and I wonder if a chat with a professional would be helpful.

Also, $50 for daycare sounds cheaper than replacing your bedroom rug, sheets, pet beds and so on! Plus Caya and Cooper sound like they have a ton of energy and I wonder if it would be good for them to spend one day/week having the time to run around and play with other dogs. Dee (the dog that comes over to play with Monday on the weekends) goes to daycare one day/week and sometimes twice. Her owner says he's not sure he'd be able to manage her if she didn't get the socialization and energy-burning that the day care provides her.

Just my 2 cents. So sorry to hear about having to come home to such a mess. I'd be insane and yes, very tempted to punish the dogs even though it would be counter-productive.

L


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## MamaProfCrash

Leslie, no worries. Cooper has some issues that we are working through. Any advice is appreciated.

They have both passed puppy class and Caya has been through intermediate class. This is the first time that this has happened. Normally we leave them in the hall way and they do their thing. No destruction, no peeing, no pooping. In the bedroom it had been limited to cheap sheets. This was a real surprise.

I was planning on intermediate obedience for Cooper this winter. He has grown out of many of his issues. I am worried about the leash reactivity and I am reasonably certain that 90% of this mess was him. Caya has never done anything like this and we left her in that room for the first three months Cooper was with us.

We tried the dog pheromones when Cooper was in the crate but that did nothing. I talked to the vet about separation anxiety issues and we have done everything the vet told us to do. He has been a lot better. This was just weird.


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## genodidit!

Dogs in pet shops generally come from puppy mills. Unfortunately, puppy mill dogs are generally raised in inhumane conditions and are unhealthy. All puppy mills should be shut down! Get a rescue dog, their personalities are better and they are generally more healthy. I was not allowed to have a dog as a child, as soon as I left home, I got my first. I got one from a co-worker, I picked up one that was roaming the streets, and I took one after I witnessed it being mistreated. If only my ex-wife and ex-girlfriends could have been as good of a companion Good luck with your new friend.


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## Leslie

Hi Geno,

You can read all about my experience with adopting Monday, a rescue poodle here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,57020.new.html#new. She was a puppy mill dog who had a very hard start, spent 9 months in foster care and now is very happy with us.

L


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## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> I am working hard not to be angry with the dogs. I know that what they did was dogs being dogs and I cannot punish them for it but I am p*ssed.
> 
> Once every other week we have the house cleaned. On that Friday we leave the dogs in the guest bedroom. Cooper peed the first three or four times we did this and has chewed up more then enough sheets (we bought cheap ones at target and he poops out the sheet material so we know it is him). We could deal with that. The last four times the sheets have been torn up but there has been no pee.
> 
> Today I left them, they had been outside and peed and pooped, with their toys and Kongs and beds. All normal. I came home to find the carpet ripped up, dog feces every where, someone pooped (based on the size I would say Cooper) and they had spread it all over the room. There is poop on the bed, the rug, and their dog beds. The Kong dog bed was inundated with pee and had to be thrown away. The trampoline style bed had to be taken outside to have the pee and poop cleaned off. I think the carpet is done for but I am waiting for my husband to come home to decide that.
> 
> I know that I can't punish them, they wouldn't know what they were in trouble for. I have no idea what we are going to do when the cleaning people come. Doggie day care is one option but that is $50 for the two of them. Good socialization thought... Cooper hates the crate so that is not really an option. Well, it is if we don't take into consideration that when he was crated he was so anxious that he slobbered all over the place and pooped a decent amount and tried to break out.
> 
> Not a good dog week at my house hold.


Oh no! Is this the first MAJOR incident like this--other than eating the sheets? Was the housekeeper different than usual? What was different--time of day the cleaner came, different sounds/smells, something outside (garbage truck noise), change with the weather? It's something had to trigger a "different" behavior.

If it's only one day every other Friday I think that I'd work hard on crate training. A bit of angst for 2 days out of the month isn't such a bad tradeoff if the alternative is damaging your bond with them over the fall-out of damage.

Not all dogs are helped with the DAP Comfort Zone. There are other things (a body wrap, harp music, etc) that in combination might help but every dog is different. So very sorry this happened.


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## MamaProfCrash

It is the first major incident. The routine at the house has been off the last couple of weeks. My Hubby was traveling, then I was traveling, and then Hubby was traveling. Toss in the cleaning when things are just getting back to normal and I think we might have an explanation. We use Merry Maids so I am guessing that they use all the same stuff and they come at about the same time. 

I am reasonably certain it was Cooper. Caya has spent a lot of time in that room solo and never had an accident. The amount of poop spread around the room was large enough to make me think it was Cooper. The few time Caya has had poop accidents in the house she has gone in a corner and then stayed away. Cooper spent four weeks with a foster who let him and his litter mates play in a pen with poop in it. To this day he is more willing to play near poop then Caya is. 

Toss in his past demonstration of separation anxiety a weird few weeks and less time outside playing this morning, Caya's escape freaked me out, and I think we had a recipe for disaster. We had talked about getting some private training for the dogs, Cooper in particular. Now I am sure that we will.


----------



## Amyshojai

Poor doggies--and poor YOU! The travel and not knowing who is gone for how long, coming and going, Caya's upset and your angst...yep, makes more sense now. DEEEEEP breaths. *s* Training can help build confidence but it's not a cure all the time. Management really is key. Ya know, the "merry maids" people could have sent someone new who wasn't dog savvy or something, made different sounds or yelled or who knows what that added to the angst. 

Hope it's the only "major" melt down. Good luck! 

And by the way, I love this thread and all the dog savvy folks lending support and tips. Awesome!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Thanks all. I needed some place to be upset that the puppies couldn't read. (winks)

I do think that we have two slightly neurotic dogs. Both of them do the head bowed thing, Caya has grown out of it but Cooper still does it. Cooper can be pretty skittish. I am hoping additional training will help him and maybe some doggie day care. They are good pups but they do have their moments. Hopefully the rug can be retacked and then steam cleaned.


----------



## Jane917

Prof, so sorry this happened. Jack never does any damage.....unless we leave him in the house alone. He finds the darndest messes to get into. He unrolls toilet paper, pulls towels off towel racks, tips over small trash cans, etc. Once he even got on the dining table and chewed on the centerpiece. Now he either goes to the backyard or goes in the car with us. He loves car rides, and sleeps the whole time. When it is hot in the summer we have to leave him at home outside, rather than in a hot car.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We wouldn't leave the dogs out when we were gone due to dog fighting rings who steal dogs from back yards to use as bait dogs. Now we really won't since Caya has demonstrated that she can get out of the yard. Even after moving the wood pile I am going to be nervous.

Silly dogs.

Maybe the doggie daycare is a good idea. One day a week where they get a ton of socialization and can run while we are gone. It sounds like a good idea. Now to convince the hubby that it makes sense.


----------



## Jane917

Ouch! Dog fighting rings? 

Kona jumped our 6 foot cedar fence once by using the woodpile technique. We lowered the woodpile and he can no longer use it to peek out of the yard. When he gets out he just keeps running. We live on 1/2 acre, so he has a big backyard to chase birds. When he comes in the house in evenings, he settles down once he checks out the kitchen counters. Both dogs are crated for bed.


----------



## Amyshojai

Even if it's not evil dog fighters, dogs can accidentally get out and it's not like the old days where they'd have acres to roam with little trouble to get into (except chasing chickens and cows). Glad everyone has plans for doggy safety!


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is going for grooming this coming Friday, 11/11/11 at 11:00!! Is eleven a lucky number? Maybe he'll look especially good.  Different groomer this time --  Randi Shoshara.


----------



## Amyshojai

Oooooooooooh, you should post a "before" and "after" pictures!


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Oooooooooooh, you should post a "before" and "after" pictures!


Yes, I guess I should. Even easier now than before. This past Tuesday I got an iPhone 4S. Eight MP camera on a phone!! Technology has gone so beyond me. I am no techie. But I feel Apple has made it generally easier / more user friendly.

Just recorded a voice memo on my phone of him crying for his supper. (Aaaaaw.) How would I get something like that from my phone to here?  (Mostly rhetorical question.)


----------



## Amyshojai

I suspect you could upload audio to YouTube, and then post the link. Maybe. *shrug* I haven't a clue really, LOL!


----------



## Sandpiper

This was just a little while ago. Just a little bit o' pink tongue hangin' out.










And these are the five puppy teeth I found.


----------



## Amyshojai

Awww....I saved a couple of Magical-Dawg's baby teeth, too, and the collar he wore when he came home--it fits around my wrist. Now, it wouldn't fit around HIS doggy wrist!


----------



## Sandpiper

My grandfather's cane.  I still have it.  (My grandfather lived to 93.  The last app. ten years with amputated leg.)  Who knew all these years later it would come to good use.  Not as a cane, but simply a long stick.

Burke managed to get his $20 piece of deer antler way back under the stove.  Had one stick thing, but it wasn't long enough.  Now what?  Must have something around here.  Looked and looked.  Grandpa's cane?  It just fit under the stove.  Just.  Got Burke's antler for him.  "Burke, be careful.  Don't do that again."


----------



## Amyshojai

LOL! See, that's why I started putting the cat's toys in the empty bathtub. It had become a game for her to stick toys under the frig or sofa, and then agitate for us to get on our hands and needs and fish 'em out.

The dog STILL does that. So far the yardstick works.


----------



## Sandpiper

At one time I had a yardstick.  Long gone.  I use metal tape measure now.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We use the broom to get Cooper's many lost tennis balls. He paws my leg when he has lost. I am working on stopping that behavior but it is kind of cute...

Caya is not happy. She is on a 40 foot lead in the backyard these days. We moved the wood pile and she still managed to make it over the fence. We are investigating fencing options but that could take some time. We have to get approval from all of our neighbors, get approval through the Home Onwers Association, and then put it up. The other option might be an invisible fence. I hesitate to do this because she is part beagle and I have heard bad things about invisible fences and beagles.


----------



## Amyshojai

ProfCrash said:


> I hesitate to do this because she is part beagle and I have heard bad things about invisible fences and beagles.


I'm not a fan of the shock collar/fences. Many dogs just run right through them when there's enough of a lure (squirrel, fox, etc) and then are kept from coming back inside. Barrier fences really are best, if you can get approval from your association.


----------



## caseyf6

We have a yardstick JUST for fetching things out from under appliances and furniture.  lol  Neat that you have something of your Grandfather's that is useful and memorable.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We have a barrier fence, its just that it is not tall enough. Caya is able to jump the four foot fence, which is impressive given her size. The idea for the invisible fence would be to set it about a foot before the barrier fence to stop her from jumping the fence. I am not sold on the idea, I have problems with the idea of shocking my dogs. If we wait to go through the home owner association approval process and then winter, Caya will spend then next 4-6 months on her lead when she is in the backyard because we cannot trust that she won't jump the fence. Now that she has discovered out neighbors back yard she is very, very excited to get back there. An entire new yard with different smells and places to play has roven to be quite the temptation.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

ProfCrash said:


> We have a barrier fence, its just that it is not tall enough. Caya is able to jump the four foot fence, which is impressive given her size. The idea for the invisible fence would be to set it about a foot before the barrier fence to stop her from jumping the fence. I am not sold on the idea, I have problems with the idea of shocking my dogs. If we wait to go through the home owner association approval process and then winter, Caya will spend then next 4-6 months on her lead when she is in the backyard because we cannot trust that she won't jump the fence. *Now that she has discovered out neighbors back yard she is very, very excited to get back there. An entire new yard with different smells and places to play has proven to be quite the temptation. *


DH had a dog growing up that once he learned he could jump the fence, they could never keep him in the backyard. It was the whole, "I can do it, so I'm going to do it just b/c I can" kind of thing. You probably need to wait to get approval for a taller fence. I would also add that the dog jumped the fence b/c he was shocked by a sort of invisable fence. It scared him so he jumped and landed on the other side.


----------



## Sandpiper

Home from my fist grooming with Randi. Ain't I handsome?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

awwww.

I love how puppies sprawl. How is the barking coming?


----------



## Amyshojai

Love the bone-theme bandana! Burke be a-stylin' all over the place!


----------



## Sandpiper

I don't go out as often as I might want to because of him.  I'd like to feel freer about it, but not right now.  Yesterday morning I put him in the smaller plastic crate in the bedroom.  Gave him stuffed Kong.  Told him to be QUIET.  When I left he was quiet.  I was gone app. 1.5 hours.  When I came back, opened the door, etc. he was so quiet I checked on him right away to make sure he was still alive!  Yes. Nothing wrong.  Don't know what went on while I was gone.  My one neighbor who keeps an ear on him was out.  I hope he was quiet the whole time.  I hope.  I hope.  I hope.  Maybe he's learning?  **fingers crossed**


----------



## MamaProfCrash

That's ok. Caya is on her 40 foot lead in the back yard until we build a new fence. She hates it but such is life. If we are outside with the dogs we let her run free and she is thrilled. You do what you have to do to keep the dogs safe and happy but safe comes first.

Burke will get there. I have a feeling that your neighbors will understand a little barking, he is a dog, but that they are not happy with massive amounts of barking.

Caya and Cooper's mess in the bedroom has already been deemed not too bad. We were going to have to replace the carpeting in favor of something more baby friendly anyway. That room was always going to be our nursery so we are getting an 8 month head start on things.


----------



## Sandpiper

Dang.  Was out for only about an hour this morning.  Put Burke in smaller plastic crate in bedroom with stuffed Kong and antler piece.  Sprayed a little DAP in there too. Soft environmental sounds CD playing.  Quiet when I left.  Barking when I got home.  Dang.


----------



## Jane917

ProfCrash said:


> Caya and Cooper's mess in the bedroom has already been deemed not too bad. We were going to have to replace the carpeting in favor of something more baby friendly anyway. That room was always going to be our nursery so we are getting an 8 month head start on things.


An 8 month head start? Did I miss an announcement?


----------



## Leslie

Jane917 said:


> An 8 month head start? Did I miss an announcement?


I know. Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Dang. Was out for only about an hour this morning. Put Burke in smaller plastic crate in bedroom with stuffed Kong and antler piece. Sprayed a little DAP in there too. Soft environmental sounds CD playing. Quiet when I left. Barking when I got home. Dang.


Could Burke be quiet while you're gone--but hear you coming back and start barking?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

7 weeks along. Far to soon to tell people but I am not good at keeping secrets like this one. (giggles)


----------



## Amyshojai

Shhhhhhhhhh...we won't tell! (but congrats...giggle!)


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Could Burke be quiet while you're gone--but hear you coming back and start barking?


I wonder about that. I try to be quiet when I open the end-of-the-hall door from the stairway and walk down the carpeted hall and open my unit door. I just don't know. I just keep trying things, combo of things, and hope that age may have something to do with it too? May be a thing he'll grow out of? Or at least will get better about? Could he sense / smell me coming without actually hearing anything (anything humans could hear)?


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Could he sense / smell me coming without actually hearing anything (anything humans could hear)?


Absolutely. Dogs have great ability to sense things we can't. Some even recognize the sound of specific cars pulling into the drive or the school bus from a block away, or the jingle of house keys, squeak of a certain pair of shoes, "mom's" hair spray. *s*


----------



## loonlover

Our dachshund lets me know II is almost home.  I'm not sure how far down the street he is, but she starts barking several seconds before he is pulls in the driveway.  He says she does the same when I've been out.  The other two dogs don't seem to pay much attention until she announces the arrival.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Some [dogs] even recognize the sound of specific cars pulling into the drive . . . .


I can do that too. Even when my drapes are shut, I know specifically when the UPS truck is coming just from the sound of it. Being in a condo, Veto drives up almost every day.


----------



## desilu

Sandpiper, this book was recommended on the golden retriever forum I frequent. I have not read this particular book, but have read and appreciated other books by the author. Perhaps it might be helpful in your struggles with Burke.

I'll Be Home Soon by Patricia McConnell


----------



## Amyshojai

desilu said:


> Sandpiper, this book was recommended on the golden retriever forum I frequent. I have not read this particular book, but have read and appreciated other books by the author. Perhaps it might be helpful in your struggles with Burke.
> 
> I'll Be Home Soon by Patricia McConnell


Patricia's books are GREAT!


----------



## Mackenzie Morgan

My dogs are large - 90 and 80 pounds - but there was a time when they were small and stayed in the house when I went off. I found that if I took them for long walks before having to be gone, it helped them handle my absence. I still use that idea today if I'm going to be gone most of the day or going to have company over. (Even though they have a large fenced in dog lot, they think they're house dogs, especially once the sun starts to sink.) I once read "a tired dog is a good dog" in some pamphlet at the Vet's office and that's the one piece of advice that I've found to be totally sound. It's worked with all my dogs. And the CD's with nature sounds and/or soft music are wonderful for covering outside sounds and lulling them off to sleep. 

If you really want to know how much he's barking while you're gone, you can get a noise activated cassette tape recorder - at least I guess you can still find them. I had a Lab once who used to bark quite a bit, and I wanted to know how much he was barking while I was gone. I set it up several times when I was going to be away for a while and I found that he barked less when I was gone than when I was home.

PS: The one in the picture under my name is the 90 pound male.


----------



## Sandpiper

desilu said:


> Sandpiper, this book was recommended on the golden retriever forum I frequent. I have not read this particular book, but have read and appreciated other books by the author. Perhaps it might be helpful in your struggles with Burke.
> 
> I'll Be Home Soon by Patricia McConnell


Thanks. Hadn't heard about book or author before. I will probably get it. DTB or Kindle? Hmmmm. Something has to work.


----------



## Sandpiper

When Burke pees, I noticed that he often enough gets the back of his forelegs wet!  So I've been thinkin' maybe groomers shouldn't cut off the long hairs that grow off the end of dogs' . . . ?  If the hairs were still there, wouldn't the hairs hang down when wet and therefore pee wouldn't hit the back of the forelegs?


----------



## Amyshojai

I think that's a male puppy thing. Magic had "bad aim" for many months and finally grew out of it. But yes, if clipping the fur helps, by all means do so. *s*


----------



## tessa

Oh one of the joys of having a female dog.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> I think that's a male puppy thing. Magic had "bad aim" for many months and finally grew out of it. But yes, if clipping the fur helps, by all means do so. *s*


_Not_ clipping the hairs? I don't know that it's an _aiming_ thing. I take it if he's peeing with any force, it can hit the back of his forelegs -- especially without the long hairs.


----------



## Leslie

tessa said:


> Oh one of the joys of having a female dog.


Yes, I have discovered we have a very polite female poodle when it comes to the peeing process...  which is nice.

L


----------



## Kindled Spirit

Sandpiper...QVC sells an item called The Thundershirt Anxiety Treatment Dog Wrap. It might be worth a try. A friend of mine tried it for her dog who was constantly barking and it really calmed him down. You can go to QVC and read the reviews and see what you think.
http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view.2/app.detail/params.item.M26135.desc.Thundershirt-Anxiety-Treatment-Dog-Wrap


----------



## Sandpiper

I've heard of the Thundershirts. Haven't tried it as yet. I may eventually. Hopefully I won't have to. Keep hoping he will finally understand that he needs to be quiet when I'm gone. And that I _*WILL*_ come back.


----------



## tessa

Is Burke lifting his leg yet? It takes a few weeks to master the art of peeing on 3 legs.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper is 14 months and he still doesn't lift his leg on a regular basis. (shrugs)


----------



## Tatiana

Kindled Spirit said:


> Sandpiper...QVC sells an item called The Thundershirt Anxiety Treatment Dog Wrap. It might be worth a try. A friend of mine tried it for her dog who was constantly barking and it really calmed him down. You can go to QVC and read the reviews and see what you think.
> http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view.2/app.detail/params.item.M26135.desc.Thundershirt-Anxiety-Treatment-Dog-Wrap


The Tundershirt works very well, we sell them in our store and use one on our dog. The company has a 45 day no questions asked money back guarantee which is nice if it doesn't work well.


----------



## Sandpiper

Tatiana said:


> The Tundershirt works very well, we sell them in our store and use one on our dog. The company has a 45 day no questions asked money back guarantee which is nice if it doesn't work well.


Might try it then with money back guarantee.

Past couple times I've been out (this morning for an hour), I think he was quiet the whole time?? He was in smaller plastic crate, in the bedroom with stuffed Kong and piece of antler. CD of soft environmental sounds playing. Quiet when I left and quiet when I got back. This morning when I got back, someone was leaving a package outside my door. Person didn't make much noise, but it doesn't take much to set Burke off. But Burke was quiet. Could it be?? Is he learning??

Not lifting his leg to pee as yet. Will he maybe do that even though he's been snipped? Or doesn't being snipped affect that?


----------



## tessa

Once Burke masters lifting his leg he should stop wetting himself.

Being snipped has nothing to do with lifting his legs, it even may help with marking his territory.

tessa


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> Not lifting his leg to pee as yet. Will he maybe do that even though he's been snipped? Or doesn't being snipped affect that?


In my experience it really just depends on the dog. My current male dog (now 11.5), was neutered at around six months of age, and didn't start lifting his leg until he was between two and three years old. And he just does it sometimes. He squats much more frequently than he lifts.


----------



## Klip

@sandpiper
Been reading your posts about struggling with a barking dog.  Been there myself! Very frustrating. The previous place we lived the neighbours hated us and we essentially had to move to a new place because of that.  I cant offer much help and advice because the way I solved it has more to do with the fact that I started working from home than anything else I did.  My dogs find barking self-rewarding so its very tough to break.  And to make things worse, the neighbourhood kids used to come and tease them, or let their dog out which of course made our dogs bark even more.

One thing I found which worked pretty well for keeping a bored dog busy is to get a largish box, and a food ball.  You know one of those with a hole that lets the food trickle out a bit at a time?  Put the ball in the box and the dog is kept busy knocking it around for ages trying to get all the food out. Not sure if this will work in your situation, you crate the dog, not so?


----------



## loonlover

Some of our males rarely lifted their leg.  Squatting was much more frequent by the Greyhound and our little Italian Greyhound/Rat Terrier mix.  Neither of them seemed as interested in marking territory as some males I've been around so I'm wondering if that isn't the key to squatting vs. lifting the leg.  Even the Great Dane squatted at times.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper doesn't squat, he just stands and pees. Sometimes he lifts a leg but most of the time he doesn't.


----------



## Sandpiper

mashadutoit said:


> One thing I found which worked pretty well for keeping a bored dog busy is to get a largish box, and a food ball. You know one of those with a hole that lets the food trickle out a bit at a time? Put the ball in the box and the dog is kept busy knocking it around for ages trying to get all the food out. Not sure if this will work in your situation, you crate the dog, not so?


I'll have to work on something like that -- something to keep him busy that involves treats.

And maybe it is, at least partly, a matter of age. He'll grow out of barking. Someone in the building is permanently in a wheelchair. Previously when Burke saw her in the chair a couple times . . . BARK BARK BARK. He saw her a couple days ago. Not a sound out of him.


----------



## Pawz4me

I doubt that's age so much as it is experience.  He saw her in the wheelchair enough times that it's no longer a novelty.

The risk of taking the "he'll grow out of it" approach with the barking is that every time you leave and he barks it becomes more of an ingrained habit.  So if he doesn't magically grow out of it, then you have an adult dog who firmly believes he's supposed to bark every time you're gone.  And just like with any habit, the longer it goes on the more difficult it becomes to stop.  One of the golden rules of raising a puppy is that you never let a puppy do anything that you wouldn't want a grown dog to do.  And I think that applies in this case.

So while I'm not saying it's impossible that he will magically grow out of it on his own . . . I wouldn't advise just waiting and hoping for that to happen.  I'd be very pro-active now with trying different things to get it under control.


----------



## Sandpiper

Now what's going on.  This morning noticed few drops here.  Then more, though by no means a puddle, over there.  Now just noticed couple drops in another place.  He was last out at 10:55.  Generally this morning he's been up and around, not sleeping.  But not really active.  He just asked to go out at 12:55.  Does that seem normal?  Or is some thing going on that should be checked?


----------



## Amyshojai

Well, is it a different day? cooking more? different people in for Thanksgiving? That could be part of the issue. Excitement, for example...Hard to say. If it goes on then yes, get it checked.


----------



## Sandpiper

NOT a different day here.  Day like any other.  I have no family.  Burke and I are it.


----------



## Amyshojai

You and Burke are, indeed, a "family." Never let anyone say any different! 

Here, we shared turkey and green beans with the fur-kids.


----------



## Sandpiper

I was gone for 1.5 hours.  Didn't absolutely need to.  Wanted to.  Return something.  Cup of coffee at Caribou.  Get things at Target that could have waited.  Got home.  99.9% sure Burke was QUIET whole time.  Yippeeeeeeeee!  But among other things, I had left him with a Kong stuffed with broccoli, carrots, and peanut butter.  He loves his veggies (steamed, nothing on them).  He's still working at getting the broccoli out.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yay! My Magical-Dawg loves broccoli, too. Good boy, Burke!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya and Cooper eat carrots, cucumbers, peppers, brocolli, asparagus (some fell on the floor), leeks, tomatoes...

We normally give them whatever extras we have left over from making pizza or salads and they get them raw. Cooper was pulling cucumbers off the cucumber plant to eat as snacks this summer and both dogs had to be watched around the tomatoes.


----------



## Jane917

Jack and Kona love bananas.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke likes bananas too.  Recently he's been stopping at another unit door when we go down the hall.  Never paid attention to that door before.  Saw unit owner recently.  She said she's had bananas on her kitchen counter for a few days.  That's why Burke was interested!


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic used to love bananas and oranges but he grew out of it. *sigh* They're very healthy, wish he'd still eat 'em.


----------



## sheiler1963

my hounds and bananas.....They will take the piece of banana out of my hand very gingerly in the kitchen and walk reverently to the living room. Once in the living room they will drop the banana like a hot potato and race back to the kitchen (stomping the banana firmly into the carpet in the process) to see if I have any hot dogs.


----------



## Amyshojai

sheiler1963 said:


> my hounds and bananas.....They will take the piece of banana out of my hand very gingerly in the kitchen and walk reverently to the living room. Once in the living room they will drop the banana like a hot potato and race back to the kitchen (stomping the banana firmly into the carpet in the process) to see if I have any hot dogs.


ROTFL! Now THAT sounds like the Magical-Dawg.


----------



## Alle Meine Entchen

Gizmo will eat anything dropped by our 2 yr old as fast as pug-ly possible. If she thinks it's food, it's in her belly. This is why she is outside or crated during meal times. Dd finds it really funny to feed Gizmo all her food


----------



## Sandpiper

*Question:* I've heard that black lights show dog pee on the floor? I figure I've got at least (dried?) drops of it here, there (everywhere!?). What is a black light? What kind of a thing am I looking for?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with it. If you clean your floors regularly you should be fine. But if you really want one, they are the lights that are used by Fraternities and College kids to make things change colors at parties. So white becomes a funky green, that type of thing. You should be able to find them at most party stores or maybe even a Michaels.


----------



## Sandpiper

Big yawn !










ETA: Looking at another thread made me think of this. Burke teethed on nothing of mine. Really showed no interest. He does chew HARD on his toys. He's wearing down his piece of antler.

In the mid '50s, Beagle in my signature chewed on the corner of this cedar chest which my Father made in high school in the early '20s.


----------



## caseyf6

Sweet memory of your Beagle.    Our wood laundry hamper has teeth marks from our big-boy cat, Jack.  He's the only cat I've ever had who needed to chew.


----------



## Sandpiper

Speaking of that piece of antler. I bought a medium size piece for Burke. Narrower at one end. Burke is a truly HARD chewer. He has worn down that end. I've found one or two pieces chipped off. So he's working at the hard outside, not just the marrow inside. Is there anything harmful about it? Can I just let him safely work on it? The piece is shorter than when I first got it. In the second photo you can see how it's chewed. It's a little pinkish.

















This evening I left Burke alone for 1.5 - 2 hours with total freedom in my unit. (I was just downstairs at the condo Christmas party.) As I suspected, no damage (and no puddle). But there was kinda loud crying and whining -- not constant and not full-on barking. But not quiet like I'd like either.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke will be 9 months old on the 14th.  Can he still be losing puppy teeth?  I just found a big canine on the floor.  Doubt I could have missed seeing it there for any length of time.  Pretty quick look I can get in his mouth, doesn't look like anything is missing.  He is a HARD chewer.  (Still not on anything of mine.  Good, boy!)  Couple days ago found a little white thing on the floor.  Not sure if it is a piece of tooth or chip off the antler (above).


----------



## Sandpiper

On Burke's nine month birthday, he watched some of Purina's Incredible Dog Challenge.  He watched!  First he was standing in front of the TV watching, then without otherwise moving, he sat down and watched.  And then again without moving, he stretched out on his tummy and watched.  At other times he was bouncing around watching.  He knew what he was seeing?  Helped if there was some "dog talk" going on.

His name is Burke, but I think he now has a permanent nickname.  Give me the choice of Coke or Pepsi, I choose Pepsi.  So Burke now is also called Pupsi.


----------



## Jane917

Jack likes to watch the dog shows too, but when the terriers come on he barks up a storm! It is really strange to see. Also, if a horse comes on TV, even when he is seemingly not watching, he jumps and runs to the TV screen and barks and barks.


----------



## *Sandy Harper*

Is it normally on leash when you take it outside? There is another thread on which people share their stories how they were bitten by a dog. Just wonder!!


----------



## Sandpiper

Yes, Burke is on a leash.  There is a leash law in the communities in this area.  This breed is the type that will RUN if loose.  I'm in a condo so don't have a fenced yard.  And Borders are ratters / strong diggers.  If you have a fenced yard, have to put strong wire fencing into the ground for some inches under the fence, otherwise Borders will dig under.


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## MamaProfCrash

That's ok, we have a fenced in yard. Heck we just put in a new fence that is five feet high because Caya figured out how to get over the four foot high fence. Yesterday we found her in the other neighbors yard. She used the different levels on the wood pile to jump on top of the fence at the one spot that the hedge (which adds another two feet in height) stopped and jumped down. At least, that is our theory. She has not escaped again since the Hubby moved the second wood pile.

She loves to explore and is reasonably adventurous, I am guessing it is the beagle in her. Combine that with German Shepard smarts and we have a 45 pound dog that seems to be finding any way possible to follow her nose to new places.


----------



## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

Congratulations Sandpiper. You already got a dog and enjoying it. It is a while since I last visited the thread.


----------



## Sandpiper

I got a DVD for Burke, Puppy Bowl III. He does watch it. And he has comments, "Woof woof woof woof . . . ." There's a sixteen week old Border Terrier, Spencer, in the line-up. Almost as cute as Burke.

This is current picture on my Gary Patterson calendar.









And this is Burke. His tongue may not be quite as long, but he's still good at giving sloppy wet kisses.


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## Sandpiper

Burke will be 11 months on the 14th. Closing in on his first year birthday!!


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## Tatiana

Burke is absolutely adorable!


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## Leslie

This year has certainly flown by!


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## Amyshojai

LOVE that Burke sweet face!   The other end is cute, too.


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## Sandpiper

Burke's 1st birthday was Saturday, April 14! He's a big boy now. Time to switch from puppy chow.

Cake was made from flour, shredded carrots, honey, canola oil, egg, vanilla, cream cheese frosting, and peanut butter decoration. Burke said I could taste it. I like it. Just not as sweet as peoples eat which is OK. (His mama didn't make it.  Get a bday cake as part of membership at Bellyrub Klub daycare.)


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## Leslie

Happy Birthday to Burke!

L


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## jwest

Happy Birthday Burke!

I just found your thread this evening, and it's been fun reading about Burke (he sure is a cute little guy). My recommendation for getting a dog was gonna be go for it, but you obviously did!

My wife and I have a Mini-Schnauzer named Jonesy, and he is wonderful. I couldn't imagine not having a dog


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## Amyshojai

Awwww. Love the cake--did Burke sing back when you serenaded him on his big day?


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## Sandpiper

Anyone know what this bush is? Not that it matters. Burke walks by it and he immediately goes for a bite. But it's a thorn bush!!! What's the attraction for him?

(Took the photos this bright sunny morning with my iPhone. I could just barely see the screen. Pretty much guessing what I was getting. GLARE!)


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## Amyshojai

Haven't a clue. Wonder if it's the smell or the texture? Magic tries to eat prickly dead grass, too.


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## Sandpiper

Burke does that too.  At least he's not wanting to taste everything like he did last summer when he was a baby.  But sometimes he still wants to munch on clumps of both fresh green and dried clumps of grass from under mowers


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## Jane917

Looks like a Japanese Barberry to me.


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## MamaProfCrash

Cooper and Caya eat grass. Cooper dug up and ate a dikon radish.


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## Sandpiper

Waaay back in the '50s, our Beagle (below) dug up a bone in the yard that a dog formerly living in the house must have buried.  What a find!!!


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## Sandpiper

I'm still having a problem (most of the time, but not always) with Burke barking when I'm gone. (I'm in a condo, so that's not good.) Below are photos of my two crates -- one wire and one plastic. I'm in a one bedroom condo, so want to eliminate one crate. The wire crate is plenty big. Plastic crate is snug. Would have to get next larger size, but would still be smaller than wire crate. I want to get some floor space back. Plastic crate would be easier to move around.

Never mind what I have or the cost of a new crate. Which would be better -- current wire crate or larger plastic crate? Don't want to get a smaller wire. I haven't put him plastic crate lately because that one is snug for him. (When he stands outside the crate, his head is a little higher than the top of the crate.) But when I did put him in covered plastic crate, he was quieter than in covered wire crate. Because it is smaller, did that help keep Burke quiet? Is a covered plastic crate simply more sound containing than covered wire? Help??!!


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## Sandpiper

Here's distemper shot certification signed by Dr. Walter Burke from August '54 for Beagle in my signature. He's the veterinarian for whom I named Burke. Burke and I are going to vet today for his annual check-up, bordetella, etc. Current vet is in the same one-vet practice building as Dr. Burke was so many years ago.


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## Leslie

Wow, $10.00 for a vaccination back in 1954 probably seemed like a fortune! I wonder what they charge now?

You are right around your first anniversary for getting Burke, aren't you? Congratulations on a successful year (even if he is still barking...)

L


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## Amyshojai

Yes, the smaller size may be more calming to Burke than the larger wire crate. But depending on length of time he spends in the crate, not sure I'd want him in the smaller one for all day. Perhaps more padding on the wire crate? Do you play any music for him, or offer treats/toys? I'm sure we've discussed that before and that you do, I just can't recall what has worked/not worked for him.


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## Sandpiper

Brought him home June 18 last year.  Heading off NOW for annual check-up, etc.  Back later with more about crate(s).


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## Sandpiper

Home.  So this is what I paid today:

Exam wellness with vaccines $35
Bordetella booster $25
Heartworm test / blood handle fee $37
Fecal sample / set up & disposal (less $5 promotion) $22
Vectra 3D (2.5-20#) #3 (less $10 flea/tick promotion) $50
Total:  $154

If I know I'm going to be gone for app. 3 hours or more, he goes to day care.  So I'd say 3 hours tops in the crate.  Probably never that long.  I can't safely go out for an hour or two or even less without worrying . . . will he bark?  My neighbors like him and are understanding, but sometimes his barking gets to be on the "enough already" side.  

I play music for him.  Someone (Amy?) suggested harp music -- Wait For the Sunset CD by Susan Raimond.  I play that or other soothing music.  Maybe I should try talk station?  Put some chew toys in with him.  Sometimes stuffed Kong.  Lately he's been barking more than not.  I never know.  I wish I could go out and not worry about his barking.  

I don't go out too often.  Maybe I should more?  He should be left alone more?  Smaller plastic crate than the wire crate?


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## mom2karen

What about trying one of the bark stopper machines.  When the dog barks the machine emits a sound?  My step-mom got one that looks like a bird house to hang in a tree next to the fence where the neighbor's dog barked. The dog no longer barks.  

Edited to add:  I would use this as a last resort after trying the smaller kennel and toys.  Might be worth trying a thunder shirt too.


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## Sandpiper

Today I went out.  Put him in the small (too small?) plastic crate which I've also covered with a blanket as opposed to wire crate.  I believe he was quiet the whole time I was gone.  Wasn't too long.  The smaller plastic crate does seem to keep him more relaxed?  

At this point pretty sure I will pass on the wire crate.  Week or so ago I called a local shelter.  They'd be happy to have it -- they just have to come and get it.  Crate is collapsible but still too big for my little car.  I bought it on-line and it was delivered.


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## Amyshojai

Great! The smaller size may feel more secure and better induce relaxation...while the larger "open" wire enclosure feels more like a room for him to ask to come out? Hmnn. Glad it works for him!


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## Sandpiper

I collapsed the wire crate and put it in storage.  (Got some floor space back.  )  Put the small covered crate in the living room.  Put Burke in it.  Went out a couple times yesterday.  Burke was QUIET.    A while ago I thought I'd seen the intermediate size Remington plastic crate on Amazon.  (That's the next larger size crate.)  Somehow couldn't find it again -- until last night.  It's a Prime item.  It will be delivered Tuesday.


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## Sandpiper

*I THINK I MAY BURST !!!!!!!!!!*

I think I've found Dr. Walter Burke. I always use Bing for search engine. But today I tried Google. Found a Walter M. Burke in Addison, MI. From info in link, looks like he is / was DVM. Or it may be that his son (?) Richard, also in Addison, is DVM. Age given for Walter Burke is 86. That sounds good. There are phone numbers for both. I'm going to try calling tomorrow. I have a good feeling it is him.


----------



## mom2karen

Fingers crossed!  Good luck.


----------



## Amyshojai

How wonderful--hope it's THE Dr. Burke!


----------



## Sandpiper

No.  Didn't find Dr. Burke.  

Intermediate crate will be delivered Monday.   Thank you, Amazon.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke's friend Veto (UPS man) came today and delivered the intermediate size Remington plastic crate from Amazon.  That's the size he needs.  He'll be spending a little time in there this afternoon when I'm at the dentist.  I'm sure (?) he'll be a good boy and be QUIET.


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## Amyshojai

Hope it's the solution you both need!


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## Sandpiper

I used the flash on this photo. If I turned on the lamp near Burke, he would have moved.










This does not look comfortable for him to me -- with his right foreleg back. Not natural for his "shoulder"? I tried to look at his left foreleg, but it was tucked under him. All very strange looking.


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## Amyshojai

Ha! Magic does that, sort of pretzels himself into odd postures. Looks like it hurts but must be comfy--can you say "doggy yoga?"


----------



## Sandpiper

Food question:

This breed is never supposed to eat beef.  Fine.  Breeder's favorite chow brands are Solid Gold, Wellness, and Blue Buffalo.  Fine.  

When I said he ate Solid Gold small breed puppy chow (which she started him on) his whole first year, she said, in so many words, how would I like to eat the same thing all the time.  She said the protein should be varied.  

The SG small breed puppy chow is lamb based.  So now he's eating a Blue Buffalo chicken based chow.  I think he is scratching some and doing the whole body shake from nose to tail from the chicken.  Allergic to chicken?  (From what breeder said in e-mail, that does not seem to be uncommon.)  Bison may be too similar to beef for him to eat.  According to breeder, fish generally is for senior dogs.  Then she said something that, to me, seemed to say feed him lamb-based chow.  OK.  His whole life?  She previously said to vary protein.  Is there another protein that I'm missing / not aware of?

If he eats lamb-based chow his whole life, but vary brands is that OK?  "Feedin' the dog" is not as simple as it was 50 years ago.     The only thing I remember Dr. Burke saying so many years ago was watch the sodium / salt content in dog food.


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## MamaProfCrash

Caya and Cooper have eaten the same food for over a year. I shudder with the fear t the idea of changing Coopers food for any reason, never mind variety ask. Yesterday he had a few blueberries after the container feel. He threw them up whole 30 minutes later. Zucchini later in the day was not a problem. His poop was mushy after he ate three heads of broccoli a few weeks back.

So variety might be nice but I don't think it I really important.

Heck, humans ate pretty much the same thing until refrigeration and mass transit allowed us to et a more diverse diet. There are still parts of the world where diets are mainly based on a few staples.


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## Amyshojai

I wouldn't worry so much about switching out food--if he does well on one ration, then I wouldn't mess with success. You can add variation with fresh foods (raw or cooked veggies, fruit, a bit of cooked chicken or fish or whatever) now and then. Some dogs develop upset tummies from changing diets too abruptly  and others have food intolerance that prevent switching out diets. It really depends on the dog.

Variety can be helpful to keep dogs from becoming picky and refusing to eat anything but a preferred food. But it's not necessarily needed. Again, depends on the dog--and projecting our own preferences isn't necessarily what the dog likes/wants, either. Dunno about you but I could eat Cheetos and M&Ms every day...and Magical-Dawg would by choice chow down on bacon 24/7. Just saying. *s*

Why isn't the breed supposed to eat beef? Never heard of that.


----------



## Pawz4me

I don't agree that any breed across-the-board shouldn't eat certain ingredients.  Pardon my bluntness, but IMO that's pure silliness.

As far as switching foods and allergies, there are two schools of thought.  The first is that you find a food the dog does well on and stick with it.  If food allergies develop (as they sometimes do when a dog is exposed to the same ingredients day after day, year after year) then you'll have a lot of other novel proteins and carbs you can switch to.

The other school of thought is that you regularly rotate between foods with different protein and carb sources and that by avoiding long-term, day after day exposure to the same foods you can prevent food allergies from ever developing.

But . . . the odds are very high that any given dog will never develop food allergies regardless of what he's fed.  True food allergies are relatively rare in comparison with other types of allergies in dogs.  Flea bite allergies and inhalant allergies (atopy) are far, far more common than food allergies.

There are other sources of protein used in pet food beyond the ones you've mentioned.  At any pet store now you can find duck and venison based foods.  There are manufacturers who make foods that use kangaroo and rabbit as the protein sources.  I wouldn't recommend using any of those for dogs who don't have documented food allergies (determined by doing a food-allergy elimination diet) or some other issue that makes a very novel protein food necessary, though.  IMO they should be foods of last resort.  Because if you switch to them purely on the notion that a dog "might" have a food allergy . . . well, once you expose the dog to those foods they're no longer novel protein sources and may not be helpful down the road if a problem really is diagnosed.  And then what do you do? 

What you describe sounds very minor and may be nothing at all.  Allergy scratching and itching really gets your attention.  Given the time of the year, if I did suspect allergies my first thought would NOT be food.  It would be inhalants (pollens, molds, etc.).  Inhalant allergies are far, far more common than food allergies in dogs.  And unfortunately they're much harder to deal with.


----------



## Sandpiper

I think I will go back to lamb-based chow. He did well on the Solid Gold lamb-based puppy chow for his first year. Might switch brands occasionally for a little variety.

I eat plenty of chicken (boneless skinless breast) myself. For the most part, cut them up and simple / plain cook in the crock pot. I can give him a little of that at times. He likes and eats his fruits and veggies. I give him pieces of cooked carrots, broccoli, zucchini, brussel sprouts as treats. Fruit so far he likes -- bananas, pineapple (canned in juice), blueberries, strawberries. All just pieces as treats. And hardboiled egg -- whites only.

I do think he's allergic to chicken. Scratching and allover body shake started since he's been eating chicken-based chow.

This is why breeder said NO beef -- CECS / Spike's Disease.

*ETA:* Burke did start the body shaking thing after his first ever dose of flea / tick protection. It was topical Vectra 3D.


----------



## Amyshojai

Holy crappiocca! Thanks for the link. Looks like "beef rawhides" are to be avoided but not beef foods. Interesting--will have to do some more research into this CECS.


----------



## Pawz4me

And when did you apply the flea preventative and start him on a chicken based food?  If it was in the time frame of late winter until now then I'd definitely be considering the possibility of inhalant allergies.  And contrary to popular belief dogs rarely react to a food upon first exposure.  Allergies almost always develop after relatively long-term exposure.

I'm not saying he couldn't have a chicken allergy.  But if I had a dime for every person who believed their dog had a food allergy when in fact it had an inhalant allergy . . . I could buy a really big bag of dog food.    And that's a bad thing, because food allergies are relatively easy to "treat" and inhalant allergies often aren't.


----------



## Sandpiper

I started easing Burke from lamb-based to chicken-based chow on April 18 -- about two months ago.  He got his first dose (topical) of flea/tick control on June 11.  

More likely that it's the flea / tick control?  What do you do then?

I'm going to change vets.  The one he / we have seen to this point just doesn't talk.  I ask questions.  She answers.  That's it.  Natural conversation (more questions and answers) doesn't flow.  

For instance:  Burke has a wart (?) on his shoulder (skin thing).  Think I had found another one a while ago.  Eons ago our Beagle (below) developed warts.  They popped up all over his body -- a lot of them.  Dr. Burke, with an assistant, snipped them off.  He was kind of laughing.  During the surgery, he said the two of them kept finding another one and another one and another one.  Beagle was full of them.  We got him back bloody with little stitches all over his body -- including one between the eyes.  That was funny looking.  

So I was asking current vet about Burke's wart.  "It's just a wart."  She really didn't offer anything more.  Time for another vet.


----------



## Pawz4me

When a dog gets itchy there are almost always several possibilities. In Burke's case it _could_ be the food. And not necessarily chicken--it could be any ingredient in any of the food or treats he gets. Or an inhalant allergy (given the time of the year you started noticing issues). Or the flea preventative. Or it could be something else entirely. An ingredient in his shampoo or conditioner, a cleaner you're using, a fabric in a new rug or bedspread, etc. And to further complicate matters, dogs who have allergies are rarely only allergic to one or two things. Usually it's several to several dozen things. It's maddening because as pet owners we all want to know exactly what's causing a problem, but there are usually no easy answers when allergies are involved. Even allergy testing (which I've done with my dog, who tested allergic to 37 substances) doesn't always give completely reliable results.

I think in your shoes I'd try a different flea preventative next time, just to see if he reacts the same way. And in your shoes I'd definitely be looking for a new vet. I couldn't deal with one who wasn't very good about explaining things thoroughly w/o me having to drag the info out of her. If it turns out that Burke is developing allergies, you're going to want and need a vet who communicates well.


----------



## Amyshojai

This year the fleas are HORRIBLE and preventives that worked in the past seem to have a higher failure rate. I've finally put Magic on Revolution and that's working the best but he still has some itching.

For what it's worth, here are several articles that offer basic info on flea allergies, food allergies, contact allergies, atopy/inhalant allergies and...when people are allergic to dogs.  Hope it helps.

http://puppies.about.com/od/Puppy_Health/tp/Dog-Allergies.htm


----------



## Sandpiper

So the itching / body shaking isn't serious?  He can live with it?  I have two more months of this flea/tick protection.  Use that and then try another from new vet.  

And I have almost whole 15 lb bag of Solid Gold chicken-based chow remaining.  I'll finish that and then go back to a SG lamb-based chow.  

Thanks, everyone, for your help.


----------



## Pawz4me

How much is he scratching and shaking?  Body shaking isn't a typical symptom of allergies.  In general with allergies you'll see LOTS of scratching, including at night.  And it'll be the kind of frantic scratching that will wake you up.  Often there will be hair loss from the scratching.  You'll usually notice some skin that's redder than normal, especially around the mouth, belly and inside the ears.  Ear infections are very common with allergies, as is paw licking and rubbing the face on furniture, bedding, carpeting, etc.

And as Amy alluded to, don't rule out the possibility of a flea bite allergy.  That's the most common allergy in dogs.  And you don't have to see any fleas to have a problem.  For a dog who's allergic, just one bite from one flea can cause intense itchiness for days.


----------



## Sandpiper

The scratching / itching isn't bad at all.  Whatever he's doing must be normal thing.  But this body shaking thing (you know what I mean -- rolling down the body from nose to tail shake from side to side) is a newer thing and certainly happens a few times a day.  I'd say since first flea/tick control application.

I suppose it's typical of all dogs -- Burke likes to roll in the grass.  Be it dry, brown, and scratchy or fresh, lush, green.  He goes for either.  Are they trying to scratch going that?


----------



## Sandpiper

Another thing the breeder said that made me wonder -- about her?  She's always said no beef because of Spike's disease (something peculiar to Border Terriers in particular).  OK.  Fine.  No beef for Burke.  But then in her recent e-mail she said she giver her BTs good beef bones.  Huh?  I would think anything that might hurt them from eating beef would also be in beef bones -- the marrow, the beef bits, whatever that might be in or attached to the bones.


----------



## Pawz4me

I just glanced at the info about Spike's Disease, so I could be off base.  But it doesn't sound like anything I'd worry about much.  It said it occurs in as many as 15 percent of BT, but possibly as few as 5 percent.  The information you linked to didn't recommend any dietary changes unless the dog was showing symptoms and a vet recommended changes.  Based on that . . . not something I'd be concerned about unless I saw symptoms.  But yes, the breeder saying no beef but feeding beef bones makes no sense.

As far as the rolling in grass -- That's a very typical dog thing to do. 

The body shaking is like a dog does when he's wet?  Both of mine do that a few times a day.  I've always thought it's kind of like us straightening our clothes.  They're straightening their loose skin and fur.    I wouldn't worry if it's one shake several times a day.  But if he shakes and shakes and shakes again several times in a row and does it several times a day, then I'd start thinking about something going on.  But it certainly wouldn't hurt, other than possibly the wallet a little, to get a different kind of flea preventative and try it next time.


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic does the body shake almost as a "yes" affirmative to questions asked (want to go out? want to play fetch? car ride?). Dogs often also shake as sort of a tension reliever, doggy shrug sort of thing like us flexing our shoulders I suppose.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'll still stay away from beef as breeder recommended.  That's no problem really.  But yeah, the no eating beef, but beef bones are OK made no sense to me either.

I'll ask new vet whenever I see him/her about body shaking (yes, like when a dog is wet).  That only started kind of recently so seems like it would be due to something new.  

Something else Burke has done from virtually day one here -- sneeze.  He doesn't seem to sneeze much when  he's in my unit, but when we go out in the hall it starts.  Always been like that.  For one thing, I have NO carpeting in my unit.  There's carpeting in condo hallway.  That must be it or something in the hall.


----------



## mom2karen

Giving him a bath with an oatmeal shampoo might help with the itches.  You can also wipe down the a damp rag when you come back inside the house to remove pollen/dust.


----------



## Sandpiper

So I was at the dentist today.  Was talking "dogs" with various office staff.  One said she had a good vet to recommend.  I'm listening . . . of course, the vet I'm looking to leave.  She said she has good discussions with that vet.  Not my experience.


----------



## Amyshojai

It's like everything else--one person's great experience might be less than satisfactory for another. It's good that the dentist staff had a good relationship but if you're not happy it's best to find someone that suits your needs.


----------



## Sandpiper

It is HOT out there.  Just stayin' in.  Burke has been napping on my lap. 

I see my posts and then photo of my Bro Beagle.  So long ago gone.  But that face was so familiar.  Sweetest thing.  He was my first and always best.  No. 1.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yep, did a blog yesterday on "hot dogs" with a video of the Magical-Dawg playing hose tag and dunk-the-Frisbee.

http://amyshojai.com/2012/06/27/woof-wednesday-hot-dogs-heatstroke-cool-tips/


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke's Fourth of July Feast.  Divide it and add it to at least two chow meals. Fullbelly Bakery fixes Fido's Feasts every 3rd Thursday and holidays. Also got him a couple tuna cookies.


----------



## Sandpiper

So far I've gotten Iverhart Max heartworm chewable tablets and Vectra 3D topical flea and tick from my vet.  I've briefly looked at 1-800-PetMeds and DrsFosterandSmith sites.  They or any other reliable on-line sellers you would recommend would be less $$?  Do you supply vet info to on-line sites and they then contact vet for script?  Someone said something about generic?  NO experience with buying pet meds on-line here.


----------



## Leslie

For our two dogs, I bought the heartworm pills (a year's supply for each dog, 12 pills) right from the vet. Each package came with a $15.00 rebate which showed up in the mail a few weeks later.

For flea protection, I buy K-9 Advantix II from Amazon. I can buy it with Prime so no shipping, no sales tax. You don't need a prescription for this.

L


----------



## Amyshojai

I get a year at a time too.


----------



## Sandpiper

Guess who? He was 15 months on Saturday.


----------



## Mike Player

I'm considering getting a dog. I moved into a house that has a doggie door into an gated outside area just waiting for a dog. BUT, I worry about all the responsibility and what to do when I travel and must leave the dog behind, and of course the expense.
I had two dogs when I was a kid and loved them both. I don't know. I figure I should decide by December or so after the house is fixed up enough. Anyone have any helpful thoughts?


----------



## Leslie

Mike,

There's lots of info in the present thread. I also share my experience (and the TONS of advice I received) in adopting two rescue dogs over the past year in this thread:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,57020.0.html

Please feel free to jump in and join the conversation. There are lots of loving pet owners here who want to share their experiences and help you be a happy pet owner, if that is what works for you.

Good luck,

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Mike,

I started the thread. That pup face a few posts up is my Border Terrier Burke. I like dogs and they seem to like me. I was an only human child. The Beagle, as I say in my signature, was my bro. Lived at home until age 26 when I moved into my first apartment. Always lived alone. Worked until ten years ago. At some point after that I started thinking about a dog. Took me nine years to finally do it! Last June (2011) I brought Burke home when he was nine weeks old. Oooooooh! Puppyhood! That was a little difficult, but we both survived.  I live in a 2nd floor condo. I traveled when I was younger. I had the travel bug bad back then. Don't have any burning desire to go any place now. I'd like to maybe. Someday again. There's a very good doggy daycare place here in town which also boards. Burke loves going there for daycare to play. So I'm sure when and if he'll enjoy overnights there too. When I brought him home last June, I hoped it would all work out OK. It has. I have NO regrets. I got a good little boy. My last problem with him, barking when I'm gone (not good in a condo), seems to be cured. _Knock on wood._


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Mike,

I would say go for it if you are really ready to care for another life for 10-16 years. We love our two dogs but they do complicate life greatly. My family lives across the country so when we go to visit them, we have to kennel the dogs and that is expensive. We got the dogs knowing that we wanted to have kids. Lucas has arrived and we are doing our best to make sure the dogs still get attention while caring for a three week old.

All I am saying is that the decision is not simply one for the moment but a lifetime commitment. Sometimes people forget that and the dogs end up at the shelter once people realize the enormity of the decision.

I would recommend asking yourself if you are ready to adopt a four legged two year old because that is essentially what you are getting. We love Caya and Cooper and cannot imagine life without them but they are expensive and do take time and love and will for any years to come.


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## Leslie

Sandpiper and Crash make good points. Re: the time and expense--if you think of having a dog as a hobby (and I mean that in a good way), it's probably cheaper than some other hobbies, like scuba diving and golf! Seriously though, you have to make a commitment to having a dog. You need to walk, train, and play with the dog on a daily basis, plus you have the expenses of food, vet, classes (if you take some), grooming (depending on the breed), toys and collars. But none of this is outrageous.

Our rescue poodle was an owner surrender to the woman we adopted her from. I think the original owners were overcome by the adorable little black ball of furry puppy, but then they hit the reality of having to train and take care of her. They thought they could blissfully go off to work for 8-10 hrs/day and she'd stay at home and do nothing but sleep. Wrong! But if you have a job that takes you away from home for umpteen zillion hours or you travel a lot, you might want to think seriously about the commitment it takes to have a dog in your home.

As you do your research, please consider a rescue dog. I wrote an article for Amy's site about our experience--you can read it here:

http://puppies.about.com/od/FindAPuppy/a/Puppy-Rescue.htm

If you decide you want a puppy from a breeder, do your research. Whatever you do, please DON'T buy a puppy mill dog from a pet store! Monday (our poodle) was a puppy mill dog from Kansas and originally purchased from "Discount Pet Supply." Every time I think about that it makes my stomach hurt. LOL.

L


----------



## Amyshojai

This thread is a MUST READ for folks considering a dog. Lots of experience to share. 

Dogs want to be part of a family and spending time together is what they want most out of life. Yes, there is some expense, but IMO the most expensive part of sharing your life with a dog is the love you spend. But that will be returned a hundred-fold.


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## MamaProfCrash

Agreed.

I wanted a dog for a while but waited until I hada house Ithink yard large enough for a couple of dogs tp play. I knew that the dog(s) would have to trained because they would be home while iws at work. I wanted two so that they would have a companion while I was at work. Iwaiteduntil my hubby and I bought a house.

I think people get a dog thinking about a few years out but on't always think about 5-10 years out. We knew we wanted dogs that would be good with kids because they were a part of our long term goals.


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## Amyshojai

Prof Crash...ditto!


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## Sandpiper

It's just weird. Burke is just outside the condo door (on leash). I give him his usual little dry treat that he loves for peeing on command or whatever. Takes it in his mouth, couple chews, spits it out in one piece. I pick it up. Go in the door which is right there. So on the other side of the door I give him _the same treat_. Takes it in his mouth, one chew, and it's down the hatch. What's that about??  It's been going on consistently for a while.


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## Amyshojai

Hah! Funny. Maybe it doesn't taste "right" unless it's in the usual place?


----------



## Sandpiper

Off to the vet this afternoon.  Burke has had four fits / seizures.  Have all started when he's sleeping.  Usually I notice it because I hear him bite / clamp his teeth repeatedly.  Some foaming at the mouth.  Then legs / body start twitching.  Seems if I can get him on his feet and moving, it gets better.  He doesn't lose control of bladder / bowels, but I try to get him outside as fast as I can.  Then he goes.  The last two times, he eventually upchucked yellow bile.  He's quiet for a while and then back to his ol' self.  Vet appointment at 4:00 today.


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## Amyshojai

Oh no! Keep us posted. Seizures many times can be managed with medication. My mom's Sheltie had intermittent seizures his whole life, but not enough to warrant meds. Maybe the doc can figure out the cause and get it treated.


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## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> Burke has had four fits / seizures. Have all started when he's sleeping. Usually I notice it because I hear him bite / clamp his teeth repeatedly. Some foaming at the mouth. Then legs / body start twitching. Seems if I can get him on his feet and moving, it gets better. He doesn't lose control of bladder / bowels, but I try to get him outside as fast as I can. Then he goes. The last two times, he eventually upchucked yellow bile. He's quiet for a while and then back to his ol' self. Vet appointment at 4:00 today.


Are you sure he's not just dreaming? Several of my dogs over the years have tended to have very active dreams. My Brittany has extremely active dreams. He twitches and jerks all over, moves his legs as if running in slow motion, barks and whines and yips.

The only worrisome thing to me is the foaming at the mouth. Throwing up bile is very common in dogs and usually due to a too-empty tummy. Often it can be remedied by giving a small snack right before bed time.

I hope you get some answers from the vet!


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## MamaProfCrash

Cooper throws up bile every once in a while. I have learned to give him treats when I get home from work so he has more in his stomach and it has stopped. 

I hope the vet has good news for you. That has to be scary. Caya and Cooper will twitch in their sleep but no foaming mouth.


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## Amyshojai

Pawz, I wondered the same thing. Probably a video of the episode shown to the vet would be a good idea.


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## Sandpiper

This is definitely not dreaming.  One hour until vet appointment.


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## Sandpiper

Home.  Vet said probably epileptic seizures.  She didn't think much of CECS / Spike's Disease info that breeder gave me when I got Burke.  Took blood sample.  Results on Monday.  Four seizures so far.  Didn't keep record of first two.  IIRC, not that long ago.  These last two -- 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning and 7:00 a.m. this morning.  She said not good that they seem to be frequent.  Usually do start during sleep.  Good chance he will go on phenobarbital.  

Just looked that up.  Do NOT like what I see re side effects.  I am NOT into drugs -- for myself and therefore not for Burke if possible.  I've got usual kinda high cholesterol and osteopenia.  (Mom had osteoporosis.)  Don't want to / not taking drugs for either.  At least I have NO problems with blood pressure myself.


----------



## Sandpiper

So how do you determine if seizures are CECS or epileptic?  Vet poo poos CECS.  I imagine breeder would say it's (more likely?) CECS.  I'm going to call breeder tomorrow and talk to her about it.  I wonder . . . for all of Burke's first year he ate only Solid Gold lamb-based puppy chow.  No seizures while on that.  Or would it be because he was a baby?  So, I suppose, could be worth a try putting him on Solid Gold lamb-based adult chow.  He's currently on a Solid Gold chicken-based adult chow.  Breeder stressed he should never eat beef.  He hasn't.  Hope it will be something as simple as diet.  Hopefully find out something from today's blood sample.


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## Leslie

Well, that sounds serious. Is this the same vet you've been going to that you felt like you couldn't communicate with or have you found a new vet?

Amy's idea is a good one. If there is any chance you could get a video of one of the seizures that would probably be very helpful in terms of a diagnosis. I am surprised she went so quickly to saying epilepsy. With seizures you have to rule out many possibilities--ranging from electrolyte imbalance, chemical deficiency, and so on...before saying the big E word. This rush to a decision concerns me a bit (note: I am not a vet...just my opinion).

L


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> So how do you determine if seizures are CECS or epileptic? Vet poo poos CECS. I imagine breeder would say it's (more likely?) CECS. I'm going to call breeder tomorrow and talk to her about it. I wonder . . . for all of Burke's first year he ate only Solid Gold lamb-based puppy chow. No seizures while on that. Or would it be because he was a baby? So, I suppose, could be worth a try putting him on Solid Gold lamb-based adult chow. He's currently on a Solid Gold chicken-based adult chow. Breeder stressed he should never eat beef. He hasn't. Hope it will be something as simple as diet. Hopefully find out something from today's blood sample.


Seizures and "epilepsy" isn't really a disease per se in dogs, it's a sign/side effect of something else. Generally they'll call it 'idiopathic' when they can't find a reason. I doubt that diet would be a cause but probably it wouldn't hurt to try the other food. *shrug* Blood sugar and the way the liver/etc metabolizes energy, body temperature, all kinds of things may impact seizures but more often you never know the cause--and it could stay the same, get worse, or go away altogether.


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## Pawz4me

Leslie said:


> I am surprised she went so quickly to saying epilepsy. With seizures you have to rule out many possibilities--ranging from electrolyte imbalance, chemical deficiency, and so on...before saying the big E word. This rush to a decision concerns me a bit (note: I am not a vet...just my opinion).


Agreed. From what I know most vets are rather reluctant to start on phenobarb until testing is done to rule out other problems and until the dog has experienced more than just a handful of seizures. I had a dog years ago who had six or eight seizures when she was around a year old. A couple of them had us rushing to the e-vet in the middle of the night. But both our regular vet and the e-vets said let's just wait a bit and see what happens, that there was no need to rush to medicate. And the seizures just stopped. We never figured out a cause, and she lived fourteen more seizure-free years. I certainly wouldn't start a dog on phenobarb w/o at least doing a CBC and chem panel.


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## Sandpiper

Yes, same vet I said wasn't so good at communication.  Maybe good vet, just not at communication.  That doesn't help.

She took blood sample.  Receipt says:  VET-SCREEN, CBC, T4 ($105).  Results on Monday.  I got the impression she's not expecting to see anything unusual on that.  Epileptic seizures . . . pheno.  As y'all are saying -- why so quickly go to that?  Not that she has said that is it as yet.  She is concerned about frequency.  (Shame on me for not keeping record of first two.  IIRC, they weren't too long ago.  Then the last two in the past two days.)  As I understand it from her, frequent seizures are hard on the dog's brain.

Depending on what she ultimately says, maybe I should try another vet?  Or would I just be looking for a diagnosis I want to hear?

So many years ago . . . IIRC, our Beagle just had very occasional seizures.  Years ago my Mom had a mixed breed terrier.  A lot of seizures.  He was on med(s) for some time.  I don't remember.


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## Sandpiper

He slept through the night.  When we went to bed (he's on his bed immediately next to mine) I thought I might not sleep because I was listening to him.  I slept.  We slept until 8:45.    Last evening he seemed sluggish.  This morning he's his bright and alert self.  

There's something I'd been doing .  I'd heard / trainer who I like much told me to . . . .  Maybe that's NOT the thing to do?  So now I'm doing the opposite.  I'm thinking it could be the cause.  See how it goes now.  Maybe eventually confess here.  Bad Burke's mama if that's what it is.


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## Meb Bryant

Sandpiper,
I owned a black Pomeranian (rather he owned me) who crawled into a sleeping bag at seven weeks-old. Our young nephew stepped on him, Duke screamed and died. While I'm looking at a puppy with his tongue hanging out, hearing my daughter threatening to kill the nephew for his cruelty, and our nephew hysterical, I decide to take action. I gave Duke CPR, brought him back from Doggie Heaven, handed him off to my daughter with instructions to repeat, if necessary. We jumped in the car and headed to the vet. (God bless their hearts.) Duke needed CPR two more times. He survived and died at 16.75 years old.

He had seizures his entire life. I'd just throw a towel over him, hold him loosely and speak calmly until he quieted. Usually he'd vomit and acted overheated (with or without the towel), so I'd get a cool cloth and bathe his face. Injury, heat, loud music, or stress seemed to aggravate his seizures, but he was one hell of a friend and companion. He was more than a dog to me...maybe it was the breath of life. Good luck with


----------



## Amyshojai

Meb, thanks for sharing that! Yes, doggy CPR/rescue breathing is literally a life saver.


----------



## Meb Bryant

Amy,
Duke was about the size of a hotdog bun, and my CPR almost blew him up in all the excitement. I like to think having inflated lungs was the cause of his long life...lol


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## Amyshojai

Meb, LOL! Yes, those tiny dogs it's "puff-puff" rather than BLOW-BLOW!


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## Carrien

I had a dog that had idiopathic epilepsy, what they told me is dogs will shown signs of genetic epilepsy before age two. My Dog had just turned nine and although some feel that is old, he was far from it...he ran at 100 mph, jumped over bushes and had endless energy and his tests all came back great and they had no answers.  Seizures raise the body temperature so it's important to keep Burke cool.  I kept a log of what time it strikes, how long and how bad, inside temperature and outside temperature and weather etc... Never found a link.

I send you and Burke my best and hope he will be ok.  You should notify his breeder so that they can test their dog and remove whichever dog is a carrier from the breeding pool if there is no medical explanation.  

Carrie


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## mom2karen

Sending healthy vibes to Burke.  I hope his seizures stop as quickly as they started.


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## Sandpiper

Burke had a very mild seizure this morning at 6:15.  Mix-up about an appointment I had for today for vaccinations that I thought was cancelled?  I got a call at 4:07 -- where are you?  So vet said on phone that blood test results came back normal.  She's ready to put Burke on meds.  I don't like the sound of that.  But then, I'm not a vet.  What do I know?  Nothing else to do, to try??  

So I called another animal hospital.  Five vets in that practice.  Burke and I have appointment with Dr. Allison Roberts at 1:40 tomorrow afternoon.  This has got to be better.  Doubt very much I'll be going back to other vet.


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## Amyshojai

A second opinion can only be good. If it confirms the first opinion, you'll feel better about it. And if there's other ideas, that too can be good. Keep us posted--sending positive energy to your kiddo!


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## Pawz4me

If possible, I'd go by the first vet's office and pick up a copy of the blood work results before you head to the appointment today.  The new vet will very likely want to have a look at the results.  And good luck, I hope this vet turns out to be a great fit!


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## Sandpiper

Very mild seizure this morning at 5:40.  Daily thing?  Dr. K, other / former vet, said "frequent" is NOT good.


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## Amyshojai

Makes me wonder--what is it about mornings? Low blood sugar (not having eaten overnight) or what? Hmnnn. Good point on taking the bloodwork to the new vet.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

I found a blog that wrote about essential oils and ways they can help dogs. One of the things was w/ seizures. Here's the link: http://www.campwander.blogspot.com/2012/07/essential-oils-for-pets-dog-whisperer.html


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## Sandpiper

Got the bloodwork report. Took it to Burke's new (to him) vet. She talks / communicates! Good-bye, Dr. K.









Dr. Roberts.

She looks a little older than in the photo. She'll be gone sometime in October through December. Pregnant. That animal hospital has been there for many many years. I never knew about it until recently. In a part of town I very rarely go to -- until now.


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## Amyshojai

Yay! Communication is a very good thing!


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## Sandpiper

While talking with Dr. R yesterday, learned that Arboretum View Animal Hospital is an easy 6.5 drive from me. This is where Oprah took one of her dogs in an emergency. She talked about it on air. She was very impressed and pleased with care the dog received. Good to know it is nearby.


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## Tatiana

How is Burke doing today?


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## Sandpiper

Still no seizures since early morning July 31 -- two days plus.  That's good, of course, but that has to continue for a few months to be safe.  Possible, but doubtful?  Who knows?  I have appointment with Dr. Roberts this coming Monday for couple annual vaccinations.  I'll ask her more about things then.  I called former vet this morning and told receptionist I would not be returning.


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## Sandpiper

Seizure this morning at 7:45.    It had been four days.  Lasted a minute at outside.  I called Dr. R and talked to her via Brian at the desk.  Gave her the details.  Said we still can wait until Burke's appointment for vaccinations on Monday afternoon.  Probably start on drug then?  This vet and practice is so much better.


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## Amyshojai

So glad the new vet practice is better! Sorry for the seizure. But keeping track of timing, place, etc may offer clues about potential triggers that could be helpful for the vet with management recommendations.


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## Sandpiper

There have been total seven seizures. First two I didn't record details. All start while Burke is sleeping which vets say is the usual. One of the first two started during the day or evening. Last five have all started early morning. Previous vet asked if I have A/C. (HOT here in Chicago area.) I'm in a one bedroom condo. I have A/C, but at night I turn it off to save on 'lectric bill. I have small fan blowing on me. I'm comfortable. Burke is on his bed on the floor immediately next to mine. Noticed last night for I think the first time that he was laying on the floor for a while -- not on his bed. No carpeting on the floor. Could he be too warm during the night, so causing seizures? I'll ask on Monday.

I believe previous vet and Dr. R think other than two mild seizures, that seizures have been lasting minute*S*. That is NOT the case. No seizure has lasted more than a minute. So what I called mild seizures were EXTREMELY mild / of short duration. Dr. R had told me the next time to call his name during seizure. I did this morning. No response to it. That would indicate epileptic seizure. He lost a little poo (inside during seizure), but no pee, no vomit, and very little foaming at the mouth this morning.


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## Jane917

Sandpiper said:


> There have been total seven seizures. First two I didn't record details. All start while Burke is sleeping which vets say is the usual. One of the first two started during the day or evening. Last five have all started early morning. Previous vet asked if I have A/C. (HOT here in Chicago area.) I'm in a one bedroom condo. I have A/C, but at night I turn it off to save on 'lectric bill. I have small fan blowing on me. I'm comfortable. Burke is on his bed on the floor immediately next to mine. Noticed last night for I think the first time that he was laying on the floor for a while -- not on his bed. No carpeting on the floor. Could he be too warm during the night, so causing seizures? I'll ask on Monday.
> 
> I believe previous vet and Dr. R think other than two mild seizures, that seizures have been lasting minute*S*. That is NOT the case. No seizure has lasted more than a minute. So what I called mild seizures were EXTREMELY mild / of short duration. Dr. R had told me the next time to call his name during seizure. I did this morning. No response to it. That would indicate epileptic seizure. He lost a little poo (inside during seizure), but no pee, no vomit, and very little foaming at the mouth this morning.


Have you talked to the breeder about the seizures? She surely would want to know so that she can follow the line of breeding. If her pups are having seizures, she may want to reconsider breeding again from the same 2 dogs.

I don't have a lot of experience with seizures in dogs. I had a golden retriever who had seizures in her old age. However, with children
a seizure that can be noticed is not considered "mild." It sounds like Burke is having seizures of short duration, but they are significant enough to be noticed.

Good luck with treatment. I am glad you have found a vet that you feel comfortable with. Please keep us updated.


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## Sandpiper

I will talk to / advise the breeder about the seizures. There were four pups in the litter. Breeder kept two and sold two. Third photo down is Burke.


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## Sandpiper

Last evening Burke went to emergency at Arboretum View Animal Hospital.  Burke spent the night there.  He had three app. 2 minute seizures yesterday.  After that last one . . . .  He's home now and on pheno.  Will regulate the amount of that or other drug over time with Dr. Roberts.  Hospital's comment when I picked him up, "He's cute, but he's a BARKER."  Yes, he is.  He's got a lot to say.  He's sleeping now.

Had a storm here yesterday.  Wind was blowing ONE leaf around on my balcony.  That set him off -- BARK BARK BARK.


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## Amyshojai

Oh wow--so glad he's home and resting. Hope you're resting, too. And pray that the phenobarb will do the job for your good boy.


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## Tatiana

How are you and Burke doing now?


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## Sandpiper

Doing OK now. Like they said at the hospital, for a while he'll be walking like he's drunk. He is walking a little wobbly, not drunk.  He's thirsty. Slirp Slirp Slirp Peeeeeeeeeeeee. He remembers -- do it outside. And he's sleeping a lot. I guess until meds get regulated, etc., he won't be as active. If he hears food noises, dogs outside, or Auntie Helen down the hall, that gets his attention and he's up and moving.

His shaved leg with IV puncture.


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## mom2karen

((hugs)) to Burke and you.  I hope the meds help.


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## Carrien

Hi Sandpiper
Sorry to hear about Burke but sounds like your handling it well, much better than I did with my dog. Yes they will act drunk and fall down for awhile, we could count on our dog having seizures at specific times.. usually 1/2 hr before the dose was due and 1/2 hr after the dose was given,  he'd be high as a kite within 15 min of the drug and we'd have to put a little bit of pressure on his collar but he'd fall down and look at us like who did that....hopefully Burke is able to level the Pheno in his system, its important to have bloodwork drawn regularly until they know its good, Pheno causes severe liver damage and maybe I have it wrong but I thought the test kit for Pheno either my Vet didn't stock or maybe it didn't have a great shelf life and he had to order it or it could have been the other not common anticonvulsant drug that we were on for a short time but do check with your vet about testing for his liver.

Wishing you the best and good luck with Burke, keep us posted.  Its not a one dose fits out and does take time to get the perfect amount so be patient, it will be worth it.

Carrie


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## Sutton Shields

It's so tough to see a pet struggling--they're like family to me. I'll never forget what it felt like with my puppy. He was so restless and scared towards the end. I just wrapped him in a blanket, played Disney music (his favorite), and rocked him to sleep at night. Okay, gonna cry thinking about him--I miss him so much...not a day goes by where I don't think about him. 

I'm sending lots of love and prayers to you and Burke. He's going to get through this, I know it. <3


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## Sandpiper

I talked to Dr. Roberts this afternoon.  She thought it best to wait on two annual vaccinations Burke is due for.  Cancelled today's appointment.  Now have appointment on Aug. 29 -- about three weeks.  Emergency hospital and Dr. Roberts think it's good to wait about that length of time and do blood test again to check levels, etc. re current dosage.  Then adjust if necessary.  Periodic blood tests after that to continue monitoring drug and dosage.  

He's still rocky on his feet, not as active, sleeping more (including on my lap  ), drinking more.  But if he hears food noises . . . he's there!


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## Pawz4me

Glad to hear she wants to hold off on the vaccines.  I was kind of worried about that issue.

I hope he adjusts to the phenobarb and that it does the trick.


----------



## Sandpiper

This evening when Burke was running down the hall to Auntie Helen's, he fell off his feet and rolled a couple times.  I'm sure that surprised him.    But then he kept going.  Scratched and barked at her door and got his treat.


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## Sandpiper

I snail mailed the breeder yesterday about Burke's seizures. Thought of something this morning that I wished I'd asked the vet yesterday. *Amy*, maybe you'd know -- Burke had three litter mates, two boys and a girl. Are any of them likely to get seizures too?


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## MamaProfCrash

If it is genetic then yes. Which is why contacting the breeder is good. They need to know so they can prevent the same pair from breeding together again. They might even pull the dogs from breeding all together.


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I snail mailed the breeder yesterday about Burke's seizures. Thought of something this morning that I wished I'd asked the vet yesterday. *Amy*, maybe you'd know -- Burke had three litter mates, two boys and a girl. Are any of them likely to get seizures too?


It's a possibility, yes, but not an absolute. As ProfCrash said, that's why the breeder should be told. My Magic's breeder routinely emails updates to ALL the folks who have her dogs over the years, with both great accomplishments and also challenges/sad news. So she not only uses the info for her own program but gives a heads up to other puppy owners.


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## Jane917

Amyshojai said:


> It's a possibility, yes, but not an absolute. As ProfCrash said, that's why the breeder should be told. My Magic's breeder routinely emails updates to ALL the folks who have her dogs over the years, with both great accomplishments and also challenges/sad news. So she not only uses the info for her own program but gives a heads up to other puppy owners.


My breeders also sends email updates and encourages us to report any health problems.


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## MamaProfCrash

We reported Cooper's parasites to the rescue we got him from because we knew he was one of a litter of five that was fostered at the same home. There was a second litter there as well. We figured if he had them, the other pups might have them.


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## Sandpiper

Breeder got my letter.  She called.  What?  It's a [email protected] shoot?!  

Burke had 2 brothers and a sister.  Breeder kept girl and a boy.  Sold 2 boys.  Breeder hasn't heard anything about health issues from other person who bought a boy.  The girl the breeder kept is fine.  But the boy she kept . . . !!!!!!!!!!!  He does have epileptic seizures.  She's got it under control with low dose of phenobarbital (8.1 grams 2 times per day).  She had a number of $$ tests done to try to determine cause including $1,400 MRI of his brain.  Everything was normal.  So it looks like idiopathic epileptic seizures.  (No point in me getting any serious testing done.)  

But she has other problems with him.  She says he has true separation anxiety.  Extreme reactions to being separated.  And then she said she could not crate train him.  At three months, he wasn't catching on.  He'd pee and poo in the crate and sit and lay in it.  Just didn't get it.  Continues to be a problem to some extent.  When he had seizures, he'd lose all pee and poo control.  Burke doesn't.  During only a couple seizures, he putt out a few pellets.  Nothing more.  

Like I said, it's a [email protected] shoot.  If I had ended up with that . . . .  Don't want to think about it.  Breeder hadn't planned to breed Burke's parents again.  Even so, she's had them spayed and neutered.


----------



## Carrien

Hi Sandpiper
I hope Burke does just as well on the phenobarbital.  Your breeder did good by removing the dogs from the breeding pool.  It's so hard to be so helpless during a seizure.  I also wanted to share with you to read a blog of Dr. Jean Dobbs Vacination protocol. Just google it.  My Vet was very proactive in reduced vaccinations for pets and many dogs can have adverse reactions to vaccinations.  At first I thought my Vet was a Quack...not vaccinating yearly But they said to me that we humans wouldn't get polio vaccination yearly so why would you vaccinate your dog yearly.  My Vet did titer testing and granted its not cheaper to go this route but I do believe I had a healthier pet.  When I rushed him to a emergency hospital I requested they run all tests again as he just had his well check up two weeks before and our Vet said he was very healthy....so the next morning I went to get him and the Vet came out and asked me if there was an error in my paperwork I filled out...I said I didn't think so and she said oh you wrote that Jake is 9 yrs old. I said yes he is!  She asked if I was sure and how long I had him? I said I got him at 7 weeks old in May of 2001.... She looked stunned and I asked what was wrong and she replied they ran the tests twice over night and all his tests come back to a dog of three years old and they were ready to classify his seizures as genetic epilepsy but since he was nine they said it's idiopathic and she was asking what I feed him etc and I stated that we only did rabies every three years and she said its noticeable because his breed was prone to lumps and bumps and other things that have been linked to over vaccinations and he had none of it.  So when I seen you were going for shots I thought you may wish to read that.  It took me awhile to wrap it around my head as I was always lead to believe that you get your dog shots yearly.  More shocking is the breed I'd like to get nearly all breeders I spoke to insist that you agree to a reduced vaccination protocol, so maybe it's gaining ground....

Wishing you and Burke the best and hope he has better days seizure free soon.

Oh and at 9 yrs old he still had high levels of antibodies and never required a booster shot and he was titer tested yearly!
Carrie


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## Sandpiper

My vet mentioned something about one or two annual vaccinations being given less frequently.  We'll talk about it when I see her on Aug. 29.


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## Amyshojai

Here's a great article from one of the experts on cat and dog vaccines, Dr Richard Ford, about the latest vaccination recommendations. Every three years is the way to go. A few states require rabies annually, but otherwise, it's based on exposure.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-cover-stories/vaccination-facts-vs-fiction.aspx


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## Pawz4me

Three years has been the accepted interval for most vaccines for quite a few years now.  That's the recommendation of all the veterinary colleges in the U.S. as well as the American Veterinary Medical Association.  The "quacks" are the vets who insist on vaccinating yearly!  Although of course there are exceptions to that.  Some vaccines (lepto is one) need to be given annually in high-risk areas if you and your vet decide it's necessary.  And of course rabies is mandated by state law, and some states still insist on the one-year shot schedule.


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## Sandpiper

I haven't had a dog for so many years, so not concerned with vaccinations. This year as Burke was ready for his vaccinations, I wondered myself if they were all needed annually. Planned to talk to Dr. Roberts, new vet, about it. First I ever heard of titer was Carrien's post above. Then last night Steve Dale was on the radio talking about vaccinations and titer. Definitely something I want to check out with my vet.


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## Leslie

You need to be firm with vaccinations, though. They tried to talk me into lyme vaccine for both Monday and Dempsey this year and I stood firm---told them I read the consensus paper which basically has a 50/50 opinion on whether the vaccine is needed or not. I said no but still got a dirty look from the vet.

L


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## Jane917

How has Burke been doing the last couple of days?


----------



## Sandpiper

He's OK.  At times he does seem quite listless.  Last night I could hold him in my arms on his back like a baby.  That's not usually normal for him.  I was worried.  But then I went into the kitchen and made noises.  "Do you want a . . . ?"  He was right there, "YES!"  So I think he's just getting use to standard dose of Pheno in him.  I am anxious for vet appointment on the 29th.  Bloodwork, then get an idea of correct dosage of Pheno or other drug for continuing control of seizures.  Don't want to give him more than he needs.  It was a week ago tonight that he was in the hospital.  He hasn't had another seizure.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yay! Very positive report. 

Yes, the pheno can change (temporarily) the attitude. Some of that, too, may be Burke maturing or the heat/weather, or or or...any number of things. Thanks for the update. I was worried about the little guy.


----------



## Sandpiper

It's cooler today.  Feels soooo good.  Just back from a walk with him.  He'd always been very good about sitting at curbs.  Sometimes without asking him too.  Stop at a curb.  He sits on his own.  But since Pheno / seizures, he's very slow about it.  At the curb I have to say, "Sit.  Sit.  Sit."  Eventually . . . .


----------



## Sandpiper

I've got to remember to keep my camera / iPhone next to the chair I sit in.  After Burke's seizures and hospital stay a week ago, he's been lap sitting by choice a little more (maybe).  So today he hopped up in the chair with me.  He was against me and put his head on my shoulder.  Not in the usual baby over-the-shoulder position though.  Wish I'd had my camera by me then.  It's next to the chair now.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I've got to remember to keep my camera / iPhone next to the chair I sit it. After Burke's seizures and hospital stay a week ago, he's been lap sitting by choice a little more (maybe). So today he hopped up in the chair with me. He was against me and put his head on my shoulder. Not in the usual baby over-the-shoulder position though. Wish I'd had my camera by me then. It's next to the chair now.


Awwwwww....that does sound like an awesome photo op.


----------



## Tatiana

How are you and Burke doing today?


----------



## Sandpiper

We're fine.  (Have you seen my posts in "Bumps" lately? )  No seizures.  There are times when he seems sluggish and times when he's rarin' to go -- like yesterday when he spent a few hours at daycare playin' with all the other dogs.  And today when he saw two squirrels at one time.  OH BOY!!


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> We're fine. (Have you seen my posts in "Bumps" lately? ) No seizures. There are times when he seems sluggish and times when he's rarin' to go -- like yesterday when he spent a few hours at daycare playin' with all the other dogs. And today when he saw two squirrels at one time. OH BOY!!


TWO squirrels at once? Which way to run, decisions decisions decisions! Fun stuff! So glad he's doing okay.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> TWO squirrels at once? Which way to run, decisions decisions decisions! Fun stuff! So glad he's doing okay.


Out o' luck. Most of the time they go UP a tree and disappear. For Burke, if they're out o' sight, they're out o' mind. As I've said before, his nose is NOT a Beagle's nose.


----------



## Sandpiper

Was just in local Pet Supplies Plus store getting 15 lb bag of Solid Gold Hund N Flocken.  The boy's gotta eat.  Someone came in, "Do you sell dogs?"  "No."  There was a little more conversation.  "What are you looking for?"  Talking about breed.  "We just want a cute pup."  They were advised to check shelters and rescues.

That does NOT sound good.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Yup not great. People who don't do breed research end up returning dogs.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sheesh. But at least you talked some about breeds. Education happens one question and answer at a time.


----------



## Sandpiper

The conversation was between person and kids who came in and the PSP person at the register.  I was not part of it.


----------



## Sandpiper

Just back from a walk.  I was looking down.  Poor little dead field mouse in the middle of the sidewalk.    Burke's nose just skimmed over it.  Kept on walking.    Our Beagle found mice in the house.  He let us know about one when he kept sniffing behind drapes.  Mom looked close and could see tiny footprints.  Then he let us know about a dead mouse under a bed in my grandparents' house.


----------



## Sandpiper

Wednesday Burke saw Dr. Roberts.  Two vaccinations and blood draw for testing.  He got a bandana for not crying or complaining.  Good results on blood test re phenobarbital, etc.  He will stay on same dose for next six months, then test again.  Dr. Roberts said test every six months for 2 - 3 years, then go to annual test.  

Best thing I did was change vets.  Dr. Roberts will be on maternity leave October, November, December.    Will see her for one more vaccination at the end of September.  Then probably won't need to see a vet for at least three months.


----------



## Annalog

Glad to hear that Burke was a good boy and got good results on his blood tests. Also glad you are happy with your new vet.


----------



## Amyshojai

Oh this is great news! I wondered how Burke was doing.


----------



## Sandpiper

Appointment at the end of September is for Lepto vaccination.  Just looking on web about it.  This vet practice recommends it, but I don't know.  Didn't get the vaccination last year from the other vet.  I'm in an urban area.  Won't say there is no wildlife around here, but don't see much of it.  (There was that skunk right on the other side of the condo front door last summer.)  An occasional fox has been seen.  Occasional possum.  Occasional coyote in the 'burbs, but not in this immediate area.  Really there isn't much wildlife.  There definitely can be side effects to the vaccine.  Think I may cancel the vaccination?


----------



## Pawz4me

If Burke has ever had a combo vaccine (the DHLPP or something else with the letter L in it), then he's already had a lepto vaccine.  My vet gives the combo vaccine every three years, but he recommends the lepto portion every year due to the limited immunity time it provides.  My vet recommends it because he says there are enough cases of lepto in dogs around here that he feels it's warranted.  And I do get it for my dogs.  We're semi-rural, so there's plenty of wildlife around.  Plus our dogs travel with us in our RV and so are apt to be exposed to all sorts of stuff.

But it's really a conversation you need to have with your vet.  She may be recommending it because, urban area or not, she sees enough cases of it to feel it's worth the risk of side effects.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yes, what Pawz said--ask the vet and express your concerns. The newest lepto vaccines are much safer than the ones of the past. Certain breeds (smaller dogs) seem more at risk for reactions, so you can also take precautions to reduce that happening.


----------



## Sandpiper

Last year at not quite three months he got DHPP -- no L (receipt actually says "no Lepto"). That was previous vet. On one site I looked at yesterday, said vaccine not so good for young pups. Maybe that was why vet didn't give it last year?

This past Wednesday he got 3-year DHPP (and Rabies) from new vet. Recommends Lepto. Again, on a site I read yesterday said Lepto better given alone -- not in combo with (or at same time as) other vaccines. So now have appointment for it on Sept. 21. Pretty sure I remember Dr. Roberts saying Lepto is given in series of two shots -- 2nd a little later, IIRC.

*ETA:* There is another wild animal (fowl) that is at times around here a lot. Them [email protected] Canada geese. Ugh! The stuff they leave behind. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. It can be bad. So maybe Burke should get Lepto. Yes, he probably will.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We get the Lepto every year. Could someone tell me what vaccines are only needed every three years? Our vet has not mentioned this except for rabies.


----------



## Amyshojai

All about dog vaccines and schedule recommendations:

http://puppies.about.com/od/Puppy_Health/a/Vaccinations-Puppy-Shots.htm


----------



## Pietro Reviglio

Hello everyone,
my vet suggested a new leishmaniasis vaccine for my doggie...
has anyone tried it? suggestions?
Thanks


----------



## Amyshojai

Reviglio said:


> Hello everyone,
> my vet suggested a new leishmaniasis vaccine for my doggie...
> has anyone tried it? suggestions?
> Thanks


That's a protozoal parasite spread by the bite of the sand fly. I suspect it's pretty specific to geographic regions. Nope, we don't have sand flies here so have not heard this recommendation. Where do you live? I know the Great Lakes (when we lived near there) had sand flies.

(edited) Here's a good article: http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/infectious-parasitic/c_dg_leishmaniasis#.UEOwtaOE6FA

It appears most dogs diagnosed with this have been out of the country or received a blood transfusion that was infective.


----------



## Sandpiper

It was so many years ago, but I think our Beagle got hepatitis.  Or maybe Dr. Burke said it was something comparable to hepatitis in humans?  (Vaccine for it back then?)  So many years ago.  For a number of days he couldn't stand.  Only to pee and poo?  I remember Mom had to carry him outside.  He couldn't eat or drink, so took him to Dr. Burke for a few days for IV fluids and food.  First thing he ate when he started to recover was ice cream off my fingers.  Dr. Burke pulled him through it.    Therefore . . . Burke.


----------



## Pietro Reviglio

Amyshojai said:


> That's a protozoal parasite spread by the bite of the sand fly. I suspect it's pretty specific to geographic regions. Nope, we don't have sand flies here so have not heard this recommendation. Where do you live? I know the Great Lakes (when we lived near there) had sand flies.
> 
> (edited) Here's a good article: http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/infectious-parasitic/c_dg_leishmaniasis#.UEOwtaOE6FA
> 
> It appears most dogs diagnosed with this have been out of the country or received a blood transfusion that was infective.


Thanks, we're in Italy and there might be sand flies around... I generally use a repellent on my dog, but now there's a new vaccine... I was wondering whether it was a good idea to try it...


----------



## Amyshojai

I got an email from the breeder--the sonogram reveals 6 puppies, SQUEEE! She wanted to know who on the "waiting list" was ready for a pup or needed to wait . . .

And hubby said "wait."  

Magic's said. Seren-kitty is relieved. I'm so busy that I should be relieved but....ya know?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Bummer. Puppies are great


----------



## Sandpiper

So we're walking to this fountain just a block or two away. Those [email protected] Canada geese had been nearby and left their [email protected]  Yeah, the water attracts them, but they're not always around. That pond wasn't always there. My high school, Willowbrook, is not far away. Willows and brook. Hardly a brook. Creeklet, if that much. Geese have been in the area for years.


----------



## Sandpiper

Today was first of two Lepto vaccinations for Burke.  Pills Pills Pills  Pheno at 9:00 a.m. and p.m. (for life?).  For two weeks he's on antibiotic for skin thing.  And 21st of the month is day for heartworm pill.  It's like another meal!!  No problem getting pills down the hatch.


----------



## Amyshojai

With Magic, I just say "Wanna TREAT?" and he opens wide.


----------



## Sandpiper

Has anyone ever tried any of Trader Joe's dog chows? This particular chow is lamb-based. Good for Burke. Looks like it should be good. A little less $ (as most everything TJ's is) than pet store premium food. May try it (that is, Burke will) after I finish my current bag of Sold Gold.


----------



## Tatiana

Sandpiper said:


> Has anyone ever tried any of Trader Joe's dog chows? This particular chow is lamb-based. Good for Burke. Looks like it should be good. A little less $ (as most everything TJ's is) than pet store premium food.


I could not find the lamb and rice ingredients online (just the chicken and rice which had some questionable and allergy causing ingredients. If you list the ingredients and the protein and carb percentages, I'll as DH or DS to check it over. If you remember we own a couple of Pet Nutrition Centers in NVA. Analyzing the ingredients in pet foods is their specialty...many area vets sent their patients to us for their food analysis and nutritional needs.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We use the taste of wild lamb for our dogs. I also like the blue brand of food. Read the ingredients, what are the first five ingredients? If they are fillers then don't buy it.


----------



## Sandpiper

Haven't bought it yet, so don't have bag with ingredients list.  I'll look the next time I go to TJ's.


----------



## Amyshojai

Just posted a notice about another pet food recall--treats again. *sigh* Not hot off the press but still of concern, especially since the "nut" one affects people, too. http://puppies.about.com/b/2012/10/08/pet-food-recalls-salmonella.htm


----------



## JRWoodward

We buy some generic thing from Costco. Maggie seems to like it, but what she really craves is cat food. We had to move the cat feeder to a tabletop she can't reach. 
She has her revenge. When we feed her canned food, she won't let the cats have any. And they're crazy for any kind of canned food.


----------



## Tatiana

JRWoodward said:


> We buy some generic thing from Costco. Maggie seems to like it, but what she really craves is cat food. We had to move the cat feeder to a tabletop she can't reach.
> She has her revenge. When we feed her canned food, she won't let the cats have any. And they're crazy for any kind of canned food.


Most dogs who eat cat food do so because cat food has a higher meat (protein) content than the dog food they are eating. Dogs natural food is protein (meat) not carbs. so they go for the cat food which is meatier.


----------



## Amyshojai

That's another reason dogs like to snack from the cat litter box (ewww!) because cats don't process all their food and the remainders can still be high in protein and appealing to dogs.


----------



## JRWoodward

I figured out that Maggie will any food I tell her not to. The other day she ate several cooked shrimp that fell on the floor. Now she's mad for seafood, mad for it.


----------



## Amyshojai

Interesting about the seafood. My cat will eat salmon but neither she nor the dog like shrimp. That's okay. I don't want to share anyway. *s*


----------



## Tatiana

Our 16mo wheaten Scottie will eat anything.  The almost 5yo Brindle male is more picky...he doesn't like fish or seafood.


----------



## Amyshojai

Magical-Dawg likes most veggies, too--but not green beans. He loves broccoli and asparagus. Used to like fruit when he was a pup but now prefers meat-and-potatoes.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke likes zucchini, broccoli, carrots, brussel sprouts, blueberries, apples.  I'm probably not remembering everything he's tried.  Seems to be up for most anything.


----------



## JRWoodward

Maggie ate some stale bread that I threw out. I should just go ahead and put all the scraps and spoiled stuff in her dish.


----------



## Amyshojai

I've learned to keep trash baskets on countertops--and the kitchen garbage behind a closed door. Magic is a dumpster-diver dawgie. I'm sure he's frustrated and puzzled by all the "good stuff" we humans throw out!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya gets that puzzeled look on her face when we are throwing stuff away. We do give the dogs leftover veggies and some left over meat. Cooper is afraid of the trash cans, they make a loud noise when tipped over and he is afraid of loud noises. 

We are actually impressed that it only took him a day or so to get comfortable to the new layout of the room we feed them in. We bought a play gate to create a Lucas zone with foam matting on the ground for tummy time and future crawling purposes. In doing so we removed Cooper's normal path to his dog bowl. It required two circles of the coffee table that is no longer there. 

Caya tried dumperster diving once but our cans do make a loud noise when tipped over and she knows that brings humans which means no eating of food and annoyed humans. Better to look cute or pathetic and get a treat or leftovers after a meal or grab something off the counter.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is so good in that respect.  I suppose if there were food scraps he could get to easily, he would?  Our Beagle would go for paper, etc. in wastebaskets.  Anything that had the littlest bit of good smells.  Burke doesn't do anything like that.  He has never been destructive in any way.  GOOD, BOY!  It continues to surprise me.


----------



## Amyshojai

Burke IS a good boy! Magical-dawg particularly likes paper. Used tissues. Ew.....


----------



## Sandpiper

Used tissue thing is what I was expecting from Burke (or any dog).  Beagle certainly went for it.  Not Burke.  He sniffs, but nothing more.  

The one problem I continue to have is barking when I'm gone.  He's in the covered plastic crate when I go out. Mostly he is barking when I get home.  I talk to him and try to reason . . . "If I could trust you to be quiet when I go out, you could have the run of the whole place.  It would be so much better."  I'd have no destruction worries.  But he barks?!  In a condo, that doesn't work.


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm still having problem with Burke usually barking when I go out. (I'm in a condo.) So after a year plus, I finally invested in a Thundershirt today. No fuss from him when I put it on. Until I urged him, he was glued to the spot where I put it on. He wouldn't move. Took it off. Put it on. Took it off. All over a period of couple hours. Instructions say don't only put it on at time of stressful situation. Dog will associate Tshirt only with stress and will expect stress then. So right now Burke is sleeping peacefully . . . .


----------



## Amyshojai

Awww....he looks so sweet!


----------



## Sandpiper

First try this morning.  It worked?!  Put it on him.  Left him free in my condo unit for 1.5 hours.  (I was just down in lobby readin' on my PW.)  My neighbor came down couple times during the 1.5 hours.  She said he was quiet.  Usually when I get home and open my door, he's standing right there whining and crying.  This time he came from the other side of the room.  I don't know where he had been / what he had been going -- but he was QUIET!    YIPPEEEEEEEEEE!!!


----------



## Tatiana

Thundershirts are really wonderful, aren't thy.  We use one on our Scottie who is terrified of rain/thunder/fireworks and artillery reverberations from a nearby military base.  It's made a huge positive impact on this life & ours!  

We sell them at our stores and they are quite popular.  Customers are usually totally happy with them.  

Remember the company that manufactures the Thundershirt guarantees it...if you don't like it for ANY reason you can return it where you purchased it within the first 45 days or a full refund.

I'm glad it works for Burke.  We also recommend, as you did,  that owners let their pets to wear it at times other than just the stressful situation so that the animal doesn't associate it with the panic situation only.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> First try this morning. It worked?!  Put it on him. Left him free in my condo unit for 1.5 hours. (I was just down in lobby readin' on my PW.) My neighbor came down couple times during the 1.5 hours. She said he was quiet. Usually when I get home and open my door, he's standing right there whining and crying. This time he came from the other side of the room. I don't know where he had been / what he had been going -- but he was QUIET!  YIPPEEEEEEEEEE!!!


YAY!!!


----------



## Leslie

We have two thundershirts on order, for our anxious poodle and occasionally anxious Brittany. We got the shipping notice today...hopefully they'll arrive quickly.

Looking forward to seeing how they work.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

I just discovered today that Burke does understand the word "squirrel".  "Where?  Where?  Where?"


----------



## Amyshojai

Give him time. He'll soon get it. Magic understands "What's that?" means there's SOMETHING interesting out on the back patio...bunny, road runner, raccoon.


----------



## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> I just discovered today that Burke does understand the word "squirrel". "Where? Where? Where?"


Monday is obsessed with squirrels, too. Dempsey couldn't care less.

L


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya and Cooper know Hungry, treat, and walk. They hear any of those and they get excited. Hungry sends them into the kitchen with lots of happy jumps and twirls and looking back to make sure that a human is walking to the kitchen. Treat sends them to the spot where their dog beds are in the hall because that is where they get their morning Kongs when we leave for the day. Walk sends them to the hallway where their leashes and harnesses are hung. We have learned to spell hungry and walk when discussing Lucas feedings and walks because the dogs are so disappointed when they are not involved. 

They know other words but those are the three that pretty much are guarentee to get their attention.


----------



## Amyshojai

Even my cat Seren understands "tones" of voice, not necessarily the words. If I call her name in a certain way, she KNOWS there's something of interest on the back patio and will come racing from across the house mewing, eager to check it out.


----------



## Sandpiper

Yesterday when I left Burke alone with Thundershirt on, I wasn't wearing jacket and didn't take purse.  He didn't really catch on that I was leaving.  This morning I did leave with jacket and purse.  He was anxious.  Some crying and whining.  He was wearing Tshirt and loose in condo again.  I was gone app. 1.25 hours.  I was worried.  I asked my neighbor when I got home.  Burke was quiet -- no barking.  Yes, it looks like Thundershirt works.  I have more freedom too!

Page full of


----------



## Amyshojai

Great news! 

I know of some families that use the back door to leave--and the dog is fine. Front door and the dog goes nuts. Interesting what signals the dogs clue in on, like your purse and jacket. *s*


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke definitely knows I'm _leaving_ when I go out with jacket, purse, etc. But he even gets anxious some when I simply go out the door -- few steps to garbage chute (and back), down to mailbox, etc., etc.


----------



## JRWoodward

My dog watches the cats jump on our laps and wants to do the same -- but she's over three feet long and weighs 45 pounds. Ouch!


----------



## Sandpiper

I've got a problem. Or that is Burke does. I'm in a condo. One door out of my unit. Have bells hanging from knob. Burke knows what they're for and has used them. But sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. What he does a little too often (he shouldn't at all) is walk by the bells, look at them, and pass his nose by them by less than an inch. *If I'm looking,* I can see his nose is extremely close. He knows what he's doing -- or not doing. And so I eventually end up with dribbles and piddles inside. He will be good about ringing the bells for a day or two . . . and then he won't. And when he is, he sometimes will ask to go out kinda / too often? I get worried about his not "holding it" for any length of time. Whenever he does ask to go out by ringing the bells, I don't like to discourage it, but sometimes it's only 15 - 30 minutes later. There's never been a problem during the night which can be as much as nine hours. Of course, during the night he's not active at all.

What do I do? Put him in the plastic crate (which is not as big as the wire crate I used to have) or tether him for a few days and take him out on a schedule? I don't know what to do.

I think the Thundershirt still seems to be working well. Need a little more time to know for sure.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yes, I'd confine and schedule potty breaks, and "pay" him with treats when he's productive. That could reinforce the notion that he'll get both good attention and a treat/playtime when he does the right thing.

I'd also give him a time limit on doing his biz. My Magical-Dawg sometimes asks to go out but only wants to sniff--so he goes out on leash, has a 3-5 minute timeline to get down to business, or else we come back in. He only gets to sniff AFTER he's done his thing.


----------



## Sandpiper

If Burke has to do something, he does it right away.  For askin' him to poo, "Hurry," is the magic word.  If he's got anything in him, he'll do it.  His potty spot (area of the grass is burned) is right out the end-of-the-wing door.  If he doesn't start doing something almost immediately, then he thinks he's thinks he's gone out for fun.  NO.  If he asks to go out and doesn't do anything, we turn around and come right back in.  And I am not a happy Mama.


----------



## Lee44

Nice to know those Thundershirts really work.  I'm surprised that they do, it just seems such a simple and odd solution.  I think they look great.

My dog (tiny chihuahua) also likes tissue, paper, and the cardboard from boxes, so I have all these holes in my boxes.  Dare I set some toilet tissue down after getting it from the grocery store, and forget about it, I'll have tissue rolls with holes in them!  

At first I didn't notice because she hides behind the box and is so nice and quiet.  But now I know - it's quiet? Ut oh, what's going on Punkin!!!


----------



## Sandpiper

Lee44 said:


> Nice to know those Thundershirts really work. I'm surprised that they do, it just seems such a simple and odd solution. I think they look great.


From the Thundershirt packaging:



> Thundershirt's patent-pending design applies gentle, constant pressure on a dog's torso, and this pressure has an amazing calming effect for most dogs.
> 
> Pressure has been used to successfully reduce anxiety for many years for both animals and humans. Examples include certain groups of dog trainers using pressure wraps for a wide variety of anxieties, veterinarians using squeeze chutes when vaccinating cattle, and thousands of people with autism using pressure to relieve persistent anxiety.


Think Temple Grandin.


----------



## Lee44

I guess it makes sense, they say it's like a hug, and when you are stressed, a hug would certainly help.  So I guess the shirt is just one big continuous hug!


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is doing _a lot_ of dribbling and piddling -- inside. I am getting tired of it. (Surprised me when he soaked his bed during the day yesterday. He sleeps all night with no problems.) He knows to ring the bells. It can happen not long at all after he's been outside. Can there be something wrong physiologically? Take him to vet? Can it be the phenobarbital?


----------



## Amyshojai

Take him to the vet. Could be a urinary tract infection or something else. Belly bands can help with boy dogs if it's simply him not wanting to let you know. *s*


----------



## lesedi

I'm with Amy in suggesting you get him to the vet. 

My boy cattle dog/Aussie shep marks in the house - and now wears a belly band - but twice he has dribbled for a few days and then peed a lot right in front of me, as if to get my attention. Both times I took him to the vet quickly. The first time the diagnosis was bladder stones. The second time (this past weekend) it was a urinary tract infection. 

The good news is that medical intervention can help Burke and you feel much better! 

Cherie


----------



## Sandpiper

Appointment at vet tomorrow at 10:40.  Gotta get a jar under him to catch some tomorrow morning.


----------



## Amyshojai

Keep us posted! Hope it's nothing serious--or at least is fix-able.


----------



## Sandpiper

Home from the vet. No, not UTI / physiological. Everything's normal. Just talked to Gayle, trainer who got *me* and Burke through his puppyhood, etc. in summer 2011. Will talk to her more at length later and she said she'd send an e-mail with tactics to take to correct his dribbling, piddling inside. That's a NO NO. She said he should be confined / contained for at least a couple weeks -- not just a couple days at a time like I'd been doing. I can easily attach a 4' leash to his crate. That's pretty much going to be his world for a while.


----------



## lesedi

Thanks for the update. I've wondered how y'all were doing. 

It's good to have ruled out physiological effects. 

It's also good to have Gayle help you figure this out. I hope y'all get through this quickly!

Cherie


----------



## Amyshojai

Aha...good it's not physical. Sounds like "lazy-butt-pooch" syndrome, just doesn't want to head outside. By any chance is the weather a factor? Some dogs HATE "going" in cold/rainy weather.


----------



## Sandpiper

Here in Chicago area, we are not into true winter weather as yet.  Today and tomorrow -- nearing 70!!!  Then starting Monday daytime temperature is going to fall into 30s and 40s.


----------



## Amyshojai

Here, too--weather in mid 70s, it's really weird. But I'm enjoying it.


----------



## Amyshojai

...and now, of course, the temps dropped by 25 degrees overnight. Magical-Dawg loves cooler weather (he has a fur coat, after all!). Me, I prefer the 70s.


----------



## Lee44

I thought that this would be a place that would appreciate this story.  I was holding my chihuahua Punkin, and kissing her and I don't know why I did this, it was just random, but I showed her my teeth and chomped down on my teeth, so that I looked like this    and after a few times of this, she showed her teeth back at me.  I was so surprised because I have never seen her show her teeth.  We have never had any negative experiences, so she is a very peaceful dog, but it was the most hilarious thing!

I wanted to know whether this was just a one time thing or whether she was really mimic-ing me, so I did it again, and again she showed her teeth.  It is so funny to me that I keep doing it now, and so does she.

I was not aware that dogs were so perceptive.  I guess it makes sense, she follows me around everywhere I go, so I guess she would imitate me as well.  Just so funny!


----------



## Amyshojai

Lee44 said:


> I thought that this would be a place that would appreciate this story. I was holding my chihuahua Punkin, and kissing her and I don't know why I did this, it was just random, but I showed her my teeth and chomped down on my teeth, so that I looked like this  and after a few times of this, she showed her teeth back at me. I was so surprised because I have never seen her show her teeth. We have never had any negative experiences, so she is a very peaceful dog, but it was the most hilarious thing!
> 
> I wanted to know whether this was just a one time thing or whether she was really mimic-ing me, so I did it again, and again she showed her teeth. It is so funny to me that I keep doing it now, and so does she.
> 
> I was not aware that dogs were so perceptive. I guess it makes sense, she follows me around everywhere I go, so I guess she would imitate me as well. Just so funny!


Yes, dogs ARE very perceptive and will do some mimicking. That's how some dogs learn to "smile" because showing teeth is usually a defensive/aggressive signal--but in humans it's a different thing. Dogs become very good at reading our expressions--and when you rewarded her with attention that reinforced the behavior. What fun!


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## MamaProfCrash

I am calling in bark busters to help with training Caya and Cooper. They are good dogs but they bark at everything that moves, do not stop barking when told to (we have tried quiet and failed miserably), jump on guests, dig holes, and do not answer to come when they want to do something else. Caya comes when we call treat, which is something and tells you that we have been trying to work on stuff with them. Cooper comes when he is not interested in doing something else.

They have decent sit and stays, we make them sit and stay before eating and before going outside. So some of what we have done has worked but not all of it. We are going to have a full house come Christmas time and Lucas is going to start crawling soon. We need to get the rest of the behavior under control.


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## Amyshojai

Uhm.....maybe your local group is different but I am not a fan of Bark Busters in general.  I'd recommend finding a positive trainer from the search/link through www.iaabc.org or www.apdt.org

best,
amy


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Uhm.....maybe your local group is different but I am not a fan of Bark Busters in general. I'd recommend finding a positive trainer from the search/link through www.iaabc.org or www.apdt.org
> 
> best,
> amy


Huh? That second link goes to some site in Portuguese.


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## MamaProfCrash

What are the concerns with bark busters? They do not use choke collars, shock collars and the like. She said they don't use treats either.


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## Amyshojai

Whoops, it's a .com instead: http://www.apdt.com/

MamaProf, my concerns with Bark Busters are that I have colleagues who have had clients come to them after not being satisfied by the franchise. Each place may have their own somewhat different interpretation of how to train, so it depends a great deal on the trainers involved. I understand they're quite pricy--that I don't know about, though. If possible I'd suggest you ask to observe a class/session first to see of your dogs might be a good fit. In my experience, some of the training styles that lean more toward the old fashioned "dominate your dog" school of thought can backfire with shy dogs especially.

How's that for vague?


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## Sandpiper

Got a sad e-mail from Burke's breeder Kathy yesterday.  

Burke now has two siblings, not three. Kathy had to put down the male pup she kept. He too had seizures which were controlled with medication. But he had true separation anxiety and would get very stressed over a variety of things. And he continued to dirty in his crate. Just couldn't learn not to. As an example, Kathy told me about four times in one morning. Clean crate. Dirty again. Etc., etc. Could give him more meds for problems other than seizures, but sometimes they would counteract seizure meds and he'd have seizures. So much for pup to live with. Hard for Kathy and her husband too. So Caesar has gone over the rainbow bridge.

Burke's sis Cera (breeder kept her too) is just fine. Kathy hasn't heard about any health problems from the person who has the other brother.


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## Amyshojai

Oh man, sorry to hear this.


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## Sandpiper

Burke still has not had any seizures since starting pheno in early August.  He is OK.  99% good little boy.    Very sweet.  

More confirmation today that he knows the word "squirrel".  During a walk today when he had his nose to the ground, I said that word.  Immediately -- head up, ears up.  "Where?  Where?  Where?"  He's catching on?  He even looked up a tree.  If I say it inside, he runs to the window.  "Where?"  

This evening he intently watched segment on 60 Minutes about lions and other wild African animals.  I have a footstool (of sorts) right in front of the TV.  He put his front paws on that so he could get closer to the 40" screen.


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Burke still has not had any seizures since starting pheno in early August. He is OK. 99% good little boy.  Very sweet.


Pick of the litter!


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## Sandpiper

In odd places . . .









How do I get out of here? Box is 10.5" high. I put a stool next to the box. He got out on his own then.









The fork in the tree is kinda low, but it is higher up than Burke. The other day he jumped and scrambled and got up there on his own . . . following a squirrel! There isn't really much of a place to stand or sit in the fork.


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## Sandpiper

Someone just asked me if dogs (Burke) would know his parents, siblings if they were to meet.  I wonder that myself.  I googled it.  Looks like not.  Or do they -- sort of?  Amy, anyone?

And what if parents and pups weren't separated -- would they continue to know their bond or would they eventually just become "another dog" to each other?


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## Amyshojai

Some seem to recognize their mother, especially if they stay together. Most don't, they do simply become 'one of the family group.' 

Cats, on the other paw, define "family" as related and in matriarchal societies (at least in feral/colony situations).


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## Lee44

I had a dog, chihuahua before current one, who watched TV.  It was a big screen TV.  What was really funny was there was a specific commercial that he liked.  The minute it came on he jumped around like crazy until that commercial was finished.  I wish that I had gotten it on camera, but I am camera challenged.

Animals are just so amazing, such a source of joy and amazement.


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## Amyshojai

The TV thing...there's a difference in the eye conformation between the short-faced dogs (and cats) and the long-nosed dogs. Seems the shorter faced pets are better able to "see" the TV screen. However, now with the high definition screens I understand more pets can actually recognize/see images and react to them!


----------



## Jane917

Amyshojai said:


> The TV thing...there's a difference in the eye conformation between the short-faced dogs (and cats) and the long-nosed dogs. Seems the shorter faced pets are better able to "see" the TV screen. However, now with the high definition screens I understand more pets can actually recognize/see images and react to them!


Jack, the Cavalier King Charles, attacks the TV when a horse or deer comes across the screen. During dog show broadcasts he serenely watches the spaniels, but barks at the terriers. I am not making this up.

Kona, the Brittany, seems not to notice the TV at all.


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## Amyshojai

Jane, that's awesome! What fun! I need to write an article on "what TV shows dogs prefer..."


----------



## Lee44

If you do, you will likely get some amazing stories, because when I first saw my dog watching, and then having a favorite commercial, I did not think that anyone would believe me.  You mentioned the short face, I guess with the other dogs, there muzzle gets in the way, maybe.  But if I had video taped his reaction to the commercial, I could have put it on YouTube and would be a millionaire by now, because it was simply hilarious.  

The way that no matter what he was doing he would immediately stop, come over to the TV, get in front of it, like he was in a movie theatre and started acting like it was the greatest movie ever, and when the commercial ended, he would also stop and go on about his business, or perhaps continue watching if it was Animal Planet!


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## Sandpiper

Tomorrow Burke and I go to our groomers.  (We get our hairs done on the same day -- by different peoples.  )

I like to tip somewhat generously, but don't want to overdo it.  Thinking of human hair . . . I've been going to the same shop for 25 - 30 years!  For many years, shop owner did my hair.  Past number of years, employee who's been there the whole time has done it.  I tipped the owner, but had always heard that you're not supposed to or it's not necessary?  

Now the groomer of Burke's hairs . . . she leases space in someone else's shop.  So she not an employee.  Burke's been going to Randi regularly since spring / summer.  He needs hand stripping, not clipping.  Not many groomers do it.  I told her she doesn't need to groom him to show, but look decent.  I like the results.  I like her.  I tip her 20% each time.  Extra something now for Christmas?  Sound reasonable or am I over or under doing it?


----------



## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> Tomorrow Burke and I go to our groomers. (We get our hairs done on the same day -- by different peoples. )
> 
> I like to tip somewhat generously, but don't want to overdo it. Thinking of human hair . . . I've been going to the same shop for 25 - 30 years! For many years, shop owner did my hair. Past number of years, employee who's been there the whole time has done it. I tipped the owner, but had always heard that you're not supposed to or it's not necessary?
> 
> Now the groomer of Burke's hairs . . . she leases space in someone else's shop. So she not an employee. Burke's been going to Randi regularly since spring / summer. He needs hand stripping, not clipping. Not many groomers do it. I told her she doesn't need to groom him to show, but look decent. I like the results. I like her. I tip her 20% each time. Extra something now for Christmas? Sound reasonable or am I over or under doing it?


Like you, I've always heard the rule that you don't need to tip the owner, but you should tip employees. Randi sounds like she is the equivalent of a booth rental in the human hair industry. In that way, they are independent operators but I also think they are not raking in the bucks. I am sure she appreciates your tips. I think something extra for Christmas would be gratefully appreciated.

Monday's groomer works out of her home. She charges $75 and takes cash only--no credit cards, no checks. Since the ATM spits out $20 bills, I have routinely been paying her $80 which is a pretty pathetic tip (on $75) but that's become our agreed upon (but unspoken) amount. The last time I saw her, I gave her $100, partly because Monday has missed appointments due to fleas, plus the groomer has cancelled appointments due to health issues. She flexed her schedule to fit Monday in and I wanted her to know I appreciated it.

Well, a few hours after Monday's appointment, I received a text that said I had overpaid by $20 and she would credit it to the next appointment! I was floored--never expected that! I said no, the extra was for you for everything that has gone on and your dedication to Monday. I probably have a groomer for life and I don't think I need to give her a Christmas bonus...but I might anyway. Thoughts on that?

L


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## Amyshojai

Tips are for above-and-beyond, I think, not for doing the job as paid for--and from what you both describe, these folks deserve a tip. *s*


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## Sandpiper

Randi so far has charged $67 each time. So with 20% tip, that comes to $80. (I think she'd take a check [I don't know about charge card], but I've always paid in cash.) WE go every six weeks. I hope with the decent tip, she doesn't increase what she charges any time soon. First time or two Burke went to Randi for grooming, I didn't have my hair done the same day. So when I did, Burke went to daycare which costs $18 for up to five hours. So by Burke and I getting our hairs done at the same time, I'm saving some $. Usually Randi doesn't care if Burke's there for a while after she's done with him. He gets to play with the other dogs for a while.


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## Kay Bratt

I know I'm late to the party but was reading through this thread because I'm a huge dog lover. I wanted to share about a recent (very recent) accomplishment. I have a 3-yr-old Yorkie. He's a big one at 17 lbs. He's the sweetest, most loyal dog in the world. But he (Riley) turns into a maniac when someone knocks on the door! 

So I've been watching Dog Whisperer. (hopefully there aren't any anti-Cesar people here) For the last few weeks, I've been using some of his techniques and they are working! First of all, the neighbors huge husky/GS has been terrorizing us everytime we go out. Riley is leashed, and the other dog would drag Riley around by the leash which he'd bite right up by the collar. We'd all wrestle, I'd scream and use my arms and legs to make him let go of Riley. Three tattered leashes and a lot of backpain later, I knew I had to do something different. Using Cesar's advice, I've now just about completely broken the big dog from his harmful playing. Now when he bolts over here, I step between them and use the weird sound warning, and all the alpha confidence I can muster. No screaming, only a low/calm/deadly voice. It works! 

So the next thing I tackled was the front door. First Cesar says you have to 'claim' the door. Usually when I open it, Riley wants to bolt out. So I started claiming the door by opening it and calmly giving him an adjustment each time he tried to go out without permission. (the weird sound with a poke to his side) He finally got it and now he doesn't try to bolt out when I open the door. Last thing was the barking at visitors. So last night we had a dozen girls come over for a high school party. Riley did his bad act for the first one, and I corrected him. For all the rest of them he behaved when they came in! It was a miracle and the two moms were asking me how I got him to be so good, so we talked about the Dog Whisperer for most of the evening. Anyway, just wanted to pop in and let anyone having these issues know that there is a way to correct it and make your life easier. I just wish I'd practiced it for the last three years! 

It really is a huge feeling of accomplishment.


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## Sandpiper

*Kay*, does Cesar have any recommendations for dog barking when left alone? Sometimes Burke does and sometimes he doesn't. I'm in a one bedroom condo. Neighbors are understanding. I've tried various things -- Thundershirt, D.A.P., stuffed Kong. Almost always put him in his plastic crate. That's covered so no chance of stimulus and to muffle sound some (depending on what I put over crate). I could leave him loose in here. Got to say, Burke is not destructive in the least.


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## Amyshojai

I'm so glad you got a handle on the situation! I'm not a fan of Mr Milan, and you can read further in this thread to learn why. *s* The "poke" in the ribs worked for your dog, okay...other folks would end up being bitten. Just saying...

I taught my 6 week old German shepherd pup to stop bolting out the door with no voice correction, and no touch at all. For future reference, here's how:

http://puppies.about.com/od/Training/a/How-To-Teach-A-Puppy-To-Stay.htm

That's my dog now in my Avatar at 90+ pounds. 

Again, so glad it worked for you and you SHOULD be proud! I agree with Mr Milan that attitude makes a huge difference. And I applaud his concern for dogs and their owners. But as a certified animal behavior consultant (dogs and cats) we just disagree on techniques. He tends to like to "dominate" and force behaviors, using hands on pokes, etc. I tend to like to figure out how to inspire the dog to do the right thing (more powerful when it's the dog's idea!) without potential pain or making the pet avoid the owner out of fear. Both work--one is maybe faster but has potential fall out. *shrug* I know owners often want/need results though and aren't interested in taking the longer way around. In this case it worked out well, good for you!


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## Kay Bratt

Sandpiper said:


> *Kay*, does Cesar have any recommendations for dog barking when left alone? Sometimes Burke does and sometimes he doesn't. I'm in a one bedroom condo. Neighbors are understanding. I've tried various things -- Thundershirt, D.A.P., stuffed Kong. Almost always put him in his plastic crate. That's covered so no chance of stimulus and to muffle sound some (depending on what I put over crate). I could leave him loose in here. Got to say, Burke is not destructive in the least.


Sandpiper, they just did a show on that yesterday. A single mom and her daughter adopted a dog and he was just a sweetheart while they were home. But when they'd leave him, he'd bark/whine/scratch and the neighbors complained.

They went through a lot of steps, but mostly like this:

1. Got him a crate and let it sit in the living room untouched for days, slowly started coaxing him in it. The mom thought the crate was too small but Cesar said if it was bigger, he would have too much room.

2. Eventually they moved the crate (now no longer a foreign object) into the room they keep him in.

3. The biggest key for them was that Cesar said the dog needed to release his anxiety with exercise before being left home alone. The mom and daughter learned how to bike ride while holding a leash, and sometimes roller-blading, but either way they took him for a long run/walk before leaving him each day.

4. For the final steps, they put him in his room and left him there only a few minutes at a time while on the other side of the door. They'd wait quietly and if he started to whine, they'd do the "S" or whatever sound he knew meant "No". He'd stop. Each time they left him longer while giving him a correction each time they heard him. Eventually they were able to leave him for the day that way, in the room with an open crate.

They did a follow up several months later and the dog was doing great. No more barking while they were away, which the mom credited to a the draining of his energy before leaving him. She also said it was a life-changing event because now she and her daughter are much healthier, too!


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## Kay Bratt

Amyshojai said:


> I'm so glad you got a handle on the situation! I'm not a fan of Mr Milan, and you can read further in this thread to learn why. *s* The "poke" in the ribs worked for your dog, okay...other folks would end up being bitten. Just saying...
> 
> I taught my 6 week old German shepherd pup to stop bolting out the door with no voice correction, and no touch at all. For future reference, here's how:
> 
> http://puppies.about.com/od/Training/a/How-To-Teach-A-Puppy-To-Stay.htm
> 
> That's my dog now in my Avatar at 90+ pounds.
> 
> Again, so glad it worked for you and you SHOULD be proud! I agree with Mr Milan that attitude makes a huge difference. And I applaud his concern for dogs and their owners. But as a certified animal behavior consultant (dogs and cats) we just disagree on techniques. He tends to like to "dominate" and force behaviors, using hands on pokes, etc. I tend to like to figure out how to inspire the dog to do the right thing (more powerful when it's the dog's idea!) without potential pain or making the pet avoid the owner out of fear. Both work--one is maybe faster but has potential fall out. *shrug* I know owners often want/need results though and aren't interested in taking the longer way around. In this case it worked out well, good for you!


Amy, I totally understand your reservations. With my 'poke', I don't hurt my dog. It is just a firm touch that just snaps him out of his current mental state. That's all you need to do, at least in my case. I could never do the 'hard poke' in a way that would hurt the dog. Cesar did say on his show that dog trainers many times do not agree with his techniques. I can see why, but most of his tips have helped me tremendously. As for the husky/GS that has wreaked havoc on us in our yard, he belongs to someone else so I wouldn't dare poke or touch him, but doing the other techniques have worked instead. At least for now.

And your dog is gorgeous!

I'm going to try to read more through this thread this weekend as I have more time open, to see what others have had to say about Cesar.


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## Sandpiper

Just back from a walk.  Walk = squirrel hunt.    This time Burke found one!  Dead.  Whole.  Hadn't been looking at Burke.  In his mouth when I did.    Good thing Burke got Lepto vaccinations.  Anything to really worry about?  No?


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Just back from a walk. Walk = squirrel hunt.  This time Burke found one! Dead. Whole. Hadn't been looking at Burke. In his mouth when I did.  Good thing Burke got Lepto vaccinations. Anything to really worry about? No?


GOOOD boy! LOL! Betcha he acted so proud. *s* No, probably nothing to worry about. Lepto more typically transmits from urine contact with cattle and suchlike.


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## Sandpiper

When I saw that dead animal in his mouth I yelled, "*NO!*" He dropped it and looked up, "What?" "Let's go." We went on.

This this past summer his nose skimmed over a dead mouse on the sidewalk. Did nothing for him. He kept walking. Not big enough prize?


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## Sandpiper

Got this Border Terrier from a friend for Christmas. Handmade of wool fibers by someone on Etsy "to order" from photos for color, etc. Quite good. Face / expression is very good to my eye. Legs and neck are wire so can be posed. Posed like this, he's 5.5" long nose to end of tail and 4.5" high at top of head.


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## Amyshojai

Awwwwwwww, that is priceless! Really very nice.

I have a St Bernard puppy, lifesize, a hand puppet that's very lifelike. And a calico Persian. Oh, and a bunny and a mouse--I'm a sucker for stuffed toys. Just need to keep them away from my Magical-Dawg. He eats them.


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## Alle Meine Entchen

Amyshojai said:


> Awwwwwwww, that is priceless! Really very nice.
> 
> I have a St Bernard puppy, lifesize, a hand puppet that's very lifelike. And a calico Persian. Oh, and a bunny and a mouse--I'm a sucker for stuffed toys. Just need to keep them away from my Magical-Dawg. He eats them.


I bought Toewad Bert the Farting Hippo for his 1st birthday. DH claims it's more for me than for him (and I don't deny it).

For those of you who don't know, he's from the tv show NCIS:


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## Sandpiper

Heard from Kathy, Burke's breeder -- Burke's other brother which Kathy sold is perfectly fine health-wise.  Just Caesar which Kathy kept and Burke that have health problems -- Caesar to the extreme and Burke just seizures under control with phenobarbital.

Asked Kathy some about chow.  I plan to always give Burke appropriate Solid Gold or Blue Buffalo chows.  He gets fed twice a day.  For some time I've been moistening chow with 3 - 4 teaspoons Trader Joe's low sodium chicken broth.  I mix a little canned pumpkin into chow for breakfast and a little plain steamed veggies in with supper chow.  Once a month he gets a Fido's Feast as topper for a few meals from Fullbelly Bakery (home cooked food for dogs).

Kathy is generally concerned about the things I add.  Careful with pumpkin cuz what it could do to digestive system / bowels.  Burke's poos are always quite normal -- good for pickin' up.    Not too hard or not too soft.  (Which way does pumpkin supposedly effect -- diarrhea or constipation?)  She said chows are balanced nutrition-wise so shouldn't / not necessary to add veggies.  She said if nothing else, all the toppers could make him finicky eater.  I do NOT see that happening.  Most breeds, including Beagle I grew up with and now Border Terrier, will eat just about anything put in front of them.  If it's edible -- it happily goes down the hatch.


----------



## Tatiana

I talked to DH about what you are feeding (dog and cat nutrition is our business/livelihood) and he felt that it's fine, very good in fact.  Pumpkin is good for both kind of digestive issues (constipation and diarrhea).  It sounds funny but it helps both conditions.  Giving it to Burke in the a.m. shouldn't be a problem.  Our dogs love canned pumpkin.  We sell organic pumpkin at the store and it's made especially for dogs; personally I buy Libby's plain pumpkin at the grocery store instead because it's cheaper.  When we fed dry kibble (we use Orijen) we use a tablespoon of a 'topper' type thing, too.  DH says if Burke was going to be a finicky/picky eater he would have shown signs of it before now.  He says it sounds as if you are really doing well for your little Burke.  

The one thing he did say you might consider going grain free if you aren't already.  Solid Gold and Blue Buffalo both have grain free foods.  DH says that Solid Gold's grain free is called Barking at the Moon; Blue Buffalo's grain free line is Wilderness.  DH feels grain free foods are better for both cats and dogs.

It sounds like you are taking good care of Burke and feeding him well.  He's a cute little guy.


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## Sandpiper

I probably will continue to feed chows with grain. Seems more of that available than grain-free. Hey, I love brown rice myself (and other grains). Good for both Burke and me. Most likely I'll continue to order chow (and other things) from Chewy in the future. Seems to be same price as sold locally in B&M stores. No tax when buying from Chewy. No delivery charge if order is over $49 (two 15 lb bags of chow). They told me problem with switching chows is basically going from grain to grain-free (and vice versa). That should be done gradually. Just changing chows otherwise can be done a little faster -- half and half for 2 - 3 days is enough. Burke has been eating Solid Gold lamb-based with grain for a while. He will be starting Blue Buffalo chicken-based with grain in a few days (will be delivered next Wednesday). He has had that before.

I did buy can of organic pumpkin for dogs earlier this year. Yes, $$ for a can of pumpkin. Something like $4. Trader Joe's has organic canned pumpkin during holiday cooking / baking season. (I told them they should sell it year 'round for dogs.) Otherwise I buy it in the grocery store.

I just don't see Burke as ever being a finicky eater. We both like to eat too much to be finicky. Well, maybe I can be at times, but not Burke. I'm happy I can ask advice from breeder, but there are times when I do question things she says.  And good to know you're here, *Tatiana*.


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## Amyshojai

Glad you got your answer. I'm just back from visiting my folks over the holidays. Burke is a good boy...doesn't sound finicky to me, either.


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## Tripp

Since you are talking about dog food, I have a question.  Cooper has been itching and chewing himself.  We went to the vet and she put him on steroids.  I really did't like what that did to him.  Now that he is off that, he has resumed the itching and chewing behavior.  I don't want to take him back to the vet and get steroids again.  Would a grain free food help with this? Just wondering.  If so, what would you all recommend?


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## Amyshojai

The answer is...IDK. It *could* help. The only way to know if a food causes the itching is to do a food elimination trial. You feed one food the dog has NEVER before eaten (and so has not been sensitized/won't react) like rabbit  and potato diet, and then slowly add back in common culprits like beef or corn to see if there's a reaction. 

But fleas is the most common and atopy (inhaled allergies) second most common culprits in itchy skin disease. Steroids kill the inflammation quickly but you're right, long term use isn't recommended. Really only the vet can diagnose the true cause. Otherwise it's a guessing game and you *might* stumble on something that helps. On the other paw, experimenting with too much BEFORE going for a diagnosis can interfere and/or delay with the vet getting a good idea of what's going on.


----------



## Tripp

Thanks Amy.  Fleas were our first guess and the vet ruled that out.  She was leaning towards it being his diet, but as you said, it is hard to pinpoint.  I appreciate the help even if it is too hard to diagnose via posts.


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## Sandpiper

I think the lightbulb may have come on for Burke.  Hopefully.  Knock on wood.  For the past few days he has pretty consistently been ringing the bells when he has to go out without urging from me.  Once he asked 15 - 20 minutes after a necessary trip out.  I did take him out again.  Just a little pee.  Came in.  15 - 20 minutes later he's asking again.  I didn't want to discourage him, but told him No that third time.  Burke, you can't overdo it!


----------



## Tatiana

Tripp said:


> Since you are talking about dog food, I have a question. Cooper has been itching and chewing himself. We went to the vet and she put him on steroids. I really did't like what that did to him. Now that he is off that, he has resumed the itching and chewing behavior. I don't want to take him back to the vet and get steroids again. Would a grain free food help with this? Just wondering. If so, what would you all recommend?


We deal with these kinds of allergy issues multiple times a day. This is not an uncommon problem. The standard vet reaction is steriods and Benedryl.

If it's a food allergy, most likely a grain free food would help. We really advocate grain free foods for dogs, they just don't naturally eat grains.  What are you feeding?

The biggest allergens are corn, wheat and soy so a food without them is the first way to go. Often times the dogs become allergic to something they have eaten without problems for a long time. Chicken is in most dog foods in some form because it is one of the less expensive protein sources. If the allergy is a protein source, we've found that the most likely culprit is chicken.

DH recommends using a unique protein source...duck, bison, venison, rabbit and a unique, uncommon binder (carb) sweet potato, chick pea, legumes etc. He often recommends Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Venison or Sweet Potato and Bison, or Legume and Duck. Usually he starts with the Sweet Potato and Venison (it's the cheapest of the three I mentioned). The dog should eat *nothing* but that for about 45 days...there are treats of the same ingredients if you want treats. But nothing else. If the itching and chewing does stop after 45 days then you know he was allergic to something in the food. If he is still itching, you could then try the Legume and Duck for 30 - 45 days or just accept that it's likely not a food related allergy. If the itching has not gone away, it is most likely environmental and you'll have to figure out what the allergen is. Once you determine what the allergy is you can try adding a few other ingredients, one at a time. If itching starts you'll know what the allergen is then.

Our youngest Scottie, we determined is allergic to grass!  She eats a raw meat diet and eats various unique proteins...it's not a food allergy. What she eats has no effect on her itchy paws. It's being in the grass or not, the season of the year and the condition of the lawn (winter grass/summer grass) that bothers her paws or not. I had a cat years ago that would loose her fur where ever she touched the grass. In the summer when she was in the yard all the fur on her legs and tummy would fall out - in the winter when she wasn't out it grew back.

Really, it's much easier to deal with a food allergy than an environmental one.


----------



## Sandpiper

*Tatiana*, so much good food info very nicely condensed!  I'm printing and keeping it. No problems with scratching and chewing, but Burke has always sneezed -- starting when I first got him. Not as hard as my Beagle occasionally did. Sometimes he'd sneeze so hard his nose would hit the floor. OUCH!  Burke sneezes some every day -- whenever.

I have no carpeting in my condo. Won't say he never sneezes in here. Sometimes though. But he does sneeze in the condo hall which is carpeted. I don't think he sneezes when we're outside walking or just not here in the building. Could it simply be the condo hall carpet? Next time he goes for daycare at the Bellyrub Klub, I'll have to ask them if he sneezes there.


----------



## Sandpiper

Such joy and happiness over a simple red rubber ball?!!!!  Burke says, "Let's play!"  

I roll the ball down the looong condo hallway.  Burke runs and runs and runs.


----------



## Lee44

Isn't it lovely the way that they love such simplicity.  I play ball with my dog at least twice, sometimes three times a day, and the joy and intense passion is just so evident.


----------



## Sandpiper

We just had some playtime in the hallway.  Fun!


----------



## Lee44

They are little gifts with four legs!


----------



## Sandpiper

I just made an appointment for Burke with vet tech for blood draw to get his phenobarbital levels checked due to seizures.  (Still hasn't had a seizure since starting on pheno.)  Will talk to Dr. Roberts when she gets results.  She is back from maternity leave.


----------



## Amyshojai

I just made apt for Magical-Dawg next week for his annual ck.


----------



## Sandpiper

Not long ago I found Chewy. They sell the chows I get for Burke at the same price I pay here. No sales tax. Don't have to lug the 15 lb bag from store to home. Do have to buy two bags or one plus other stuff to get free shipping. That's OK. Today I got this in the mail:

















I've never gotten a handwritten "thank you" from an on-line business before. I wonder how big the business is?


----------



## Amyshojai

They're pretty new. Used to be MrChewy.com and then they shortened it to Chewy.com. I wrote their cat blog for them until they stopped all the blogs (not sure why):

http://www.chewy.com/c/blog-categories/kittys-corner

Great that they're sending personal notes. Customer service is vastly underrated by most companies, nice to see that's not the case here.


----------



## Sandpiper

What's that pink spot below Burke's nose? Looks like he lost some hair? But would the skin be pink there? I don't think so. Will be going to vet on Monday for just his semi-annual blood draw re seizures. Still hasn't had any since going on pheno.


----------



## Amyshojai

*sigh* At Magic's annual check about 2 weeks ago, the vet commented on his loss of pigment on the top of his nose. I thought he'd just had a chapped schnozz from some colder weather. But the vet said to watch it--can point to autoimmune issues. And about 3 days after his vet visit, he developed a spot on his lip that looked similar to Burke's (my husband swore it was because he ran into a wall and just bruised himself playing) -- it's since healed but that's another possible issue of autoimmune disease. You can see the white star-shaped spots here:


Magic with bed & toy by amyshojai, on Flickr


----------



## Sandpiper

Indoor exercise. Chasing the ball in the hall. (That dark spot towards the far end is Burke.) I don't know how long it is, but it is a long hall.

Burke is smart. Sometimes I'm not so. We were just playing ball. He was acting peculiar. He ran after the ball and then just stood like he was glued. Walked away from the ball. Peculiar. Then I realized. Trip outside. Peeeee. He knew he should not run too much until after he took care of biz. Didn't do it inside.


----------



## Tatiana

Amyshojai said:


> *sigh* At Magic's annual check about 2 weeks ago, the vet commented on his loss of pigment on the top of his nose. I thought he'd just had a chapped schnozz from some colder weather. But the vet said to watch it--can point to autoimmune issues. And about 3 days after his vet visit, he developed a spot on his lip that looked similar to Burke's (my husband swore it was because he ran into a wall and just bruised himself playing) -- it's since healed but that's another possible issue of autoimmune disease. You can see the white star-shaped spots here:
> 
> 
> Magic with bed & toy by amyshojai, on Flickr


Our female Scottie has 'snow nose'. It's a condition where the black pigment of her nose (except the very edges) fades to pink in the winter months and turns back to black in the summer. It doesn't ever get quite as dark black as it was when she was a tiny puppy but it gets dark in the summer months and fades to pink in the winter.


----------



## Amyshojai

Snow nose...must be from the temperature change, interesting. Hadn't heard of that.


----------



## Tripp

I have never heard of snow nose...is it due to extremely cold weather and maybe sniffing in the snow? From the name it kind of sounds like it.

I just wanted to post an update on Cooper's chewing and scratching.  I did what Tatiana recommended and started feeding him grain free / poultry free dog food.  Since we were already feeding him Natural Balance, I went with their Limited Ingredients Sweet Potato and Venison formula.  It seemed to take the old food a few weeks to purge his system, but he is now itch free.  There is an added benefit of weight control.  The dog food with grain in it seemed to pack the pounds on so much easier than this new food does.  What an easy fix and I feel much better about this over going the steroid route.


----------



## Tatiana

Snow Nose is not something that happens because of the dog snuffling in the snow, according to what we've read and been told. We haven't had any real snow for our dog to sniff in for the last two years and the change in pigment has occurred in spite of the lack of snow.  We've done lots of research and the following article seems to explain it the best. It is our wheaten coloured (she is sort of a Cocker Spaniel colour not the typical ivory wheaten) female Scottie that has Snow Nose.

Arabella's nose turns pinky except around the very edges close to the fur where it's black. In the summer it darkens up but not to the inky black of a typical Scottie which is what it was when she was a puppy.

http://classic.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndicate/ask_AKC/0108.cfm

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesconditionsfaqs/f/snow_nose.htm

I'm so glad that the diet change helped Cooper. DH and DS deal with this issue multiple times daily and 95% of the time the itching ends with a food change. Obviously, then, it was something in the original food that the dog (or cat) was allergic to.

We've done all the eliminations with our wheaten Scottie and discovered she is allergic to the grass in the summer months. She licks her paws almost constantly in the summer but come the her first bath after the first frost, her licking ceases until the next spring. It doesn't bother her in the winter, just in the summer, even tho' we haven't had snow winters since we've had her and she's in the grass daily.


----------



## Sandpiper

HELP!  I am getting serious complaints about barking.  I'm in a condo.  It's Burke's barking when I'm gone.  I try various things.  Sometimes he's quiet, but mostly not.  One person just told me, "I can't take it any more."  

Muzzle?  Or does he go?  What?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

A muzzle does not prevent barking.

I know he is a little guy, so maybe you can sound proof a closet. leave him with some toys and whatever you are comfortable with in the sound proof, or sound dampened room.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5027308_soundproof-area-dogs.html


----------



## Sandpiper

In the early months with him, I had his crate in my bedroom placed and covered so as to tone down the sound of his barking.  That was good.  I don't remember just why, but I moved crate to living room -- more out in the open.  So now I've moved it back into the bedroom and doing things to again tone down sound of barking.  

I'd forgotten that I got a citronella collar some time ago, but never used it.  I't a Premier collar.  Did get it from Amazon.  Just looked there again.  A lot of good reviews.  He's got it on his neck now (not filled so will not spray) to get used to it.  A little bulky.  Between the crate placement and collar . . . I hope he is QUIET.  (The problem is only when I'm out.)  And hopefully collar alone will work so he can have the run of the place when I'm out.  As I keep saying, he is the best -- he's really never been destructive at all.  Not in the least.  No worries about that when I go out.


----------



## Amyshojai

The person saying, "I can't take it anymore!" what do THEY do? It's hard to ignore barking, but yelling back, making noise, slamming doors, etc can make the dog think it's a bark contest. I'm not saying anyone is doing anything necessarily, but just as an FYI. Dogs do bark out of boredom. So puzzle toys that keep Burke's mouth busy doing something else can be helpful. 

Find out if it's certain times--is he barking at the garbage truck? Moving the crate back out of the view of windows can help, yes. Good luck!


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm kinda aware that it doesn't necessarily take anything to set him off except my leaving.  Even when he's in his crate with stuffed Kong, etc., he may well bark.  Any dogs I / we had when I was a child / growing up, never had a barking problem.  So didn't really think about that when I got Burke.

This morning there was an old pink rug in the yard in front of the building (could see it from my balcony).  That was worth barking at.    And, yeah, when UPS truck comes, we both know the sound of Veto's shifting gears, etc.  We both get excited.


----------



## Amyshojai

LOL! Well the pink rug looked dangerous. Now, a BLUE rug, that would be okay.


----------



## JeanneB

Hi Bonnie, 
I have a 12 yr old pug... I kept her crated for about a year when I went out.  One day I just decided it was time to get rid of the crate because she was not a chewer.  It worked.  She calmed down a lot after I left her out all the time. 

My son has a year old yellow lab.. he goes to work daily with my husband & son.. and he has never been crated after about a month.  He trained really fast... and not a chewer.  

If I go out I close off all the bedrooms and rooms I don't want them in (just in case).  

Have you tried leaving your dog out and going out for a short time (10 mins)..and then the next time a little longer..  

Oh..If I go out for any long length of time I leave the TV on.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

I would set up a recorder and set it to record while you are out. That should let you know how often he is barking and maybe what is setting him off.


----------



## Sandpiper

JeanneB, freedom or crated -- he mostly barks when I leave.  I never know.  I try combos of different things that I hope will subdue him.  Doesn't matter what.  He barks or not.  He is not destructive in the least so no concerns about his being free in here.  I leave the radio on -- try all kinds of music and talk.

I forgot I bought a Premier Gentle Spray citronella collar a while ago.  Got it out today.  As it's a little bulky, I put it on him with no spray.  He has no problem with that.  I called Premier.  They said that was the way to start.  Next put spray in it and turn it on, but be with him for couple days at first.  He may get too scared at first at the spray.  Let him know it won't hurt.  After that hopefully spray will be enough to stop the barking.  It's got pretty good reviews on Amazon.


----------



## Sandpiper

I put the citronella collar on Burke today -- filled and turned on.  He has barked and been sprayed a few times already.  I think it's working.        It does startle him and he stops dead.  "WHAZZAT??!!"


----------



## SEAN H. ROBERTSON

Love my yorkie daughter, Mia...she's been sleeping with me for nearly four years, even though she was a birthday present for my then 12 year old Kristin.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I put the citronella collar on Burke today -- filled and turned on. He has barked and been sprayed a few times already. I think it's working.    It does startle him and he stops dead. "WHAZZAT??!!"


Good deal!


----------



## Sandpiper

It really does seem to be working.  Burke got excited when he saw a dog outside.  Didn't happen to have collar on him then.  I put it on.  Got him excited at the window.  He got a spritz.  "WHAZZAT??!!"  It does startle him, stops him in his tracks, and stops any barking.  Has him a little anxious, but not really scared.  Normally I can get him to the window easily.  "Doggy."  "Squirrel."  Now he's not so sure about it.  

Tomorrow will be first real test.  I have to go out for 1.5 - 2 hours.  I am going to put him in the crate with collar on.  If I get reports of no barking for a week or so, I'll try leaving him free in here with collar.  

I even feel freer myself already.  Do I really have to go out?  How long?  Will he bark?  I am a homebody, but I do like to feel I can go out when I want.  I've never left him here longer than three hours.  If I know it's going to be longer, he goes to daycare at the Bellyrub Klub.  He loves that.


----------



## JeanneB

Cute name for a daycare..Bellyrub Club.  LOL

Hope it continues to work...it should, dogs hate getting sprayed.


----------



## Sandpiper

When he was a young pup -- just learning -- he was an ankle nipper for a while.  When I was outside with him, I carried a spray bottle with me.  He did not like that.  (It was hot summertime.  I was in shorts a lot.)


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke has black nails.  Just noticed the black is chipped off / peeled a little from one nail.  White is showing.  Maybe a little black is still attached but hanging?  Doesn't look like blood or anything there.  (It's been six weeks since last trim.  That will happen Friday.)  Is that normal?  Is the black a separate layer?


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Burke has black nails. Just noticed the black is chipped off / peeled a little from one nail. White is showing. Maybe a little black is still attached but hanging? Doesn't look like blood or anything there. (It's been six weeks since last trim. That will happen Friday.) Is that normal? Is the black a separate layer?


Probably normal, just needs a trim. He may have scuffed the nail.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke will be going grain-free soon. Fifteen lb bag of Solid Gold Sun Dancer was delivered today. He had a bag once before a while ago. Didn't know about the grain / grain-free thing back then. Got it from Chewy.com. Sun Dancer is _very hard_ to find locally. I wonder if other grain-free chows are also difficult to find.

I feel as though I'm still testing citronella spray collar on Burke. One day last week after I'd been gone 1.5 hours, a neighbor reported that he had BARKed. Burke had been wearing collar. I tested it by blowing on the "mic". Nothing happened. Reservoir was empty. Did it have no or one or two sprays remaining in it when I put it on him? Some reviews say dogs don't like it, but learn to bark enough until it's empty and then are free to bark without getting spritzed. I was gone for only 10 - 15 minutes today. Collar was on him. He was quiet when I got home. Could smell the citronella. He must have tried barking. Then I tested it. Wasn't empty. I hope it truly continues to work.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Some reviews say dogs don't like it, but learn to bark enough until it's empty and then are free to bark without getting spritzed.


ROTFL! That's a dog you've gotta admire for smarts!


----------



## Sandpiper

I'll have to get more flea & tick protection soon.  I remember Steve Dale on the radio saying ask your vet which protection to use.  Last year when I first started going to vet practice where I still go, they sold me Vectra 3D.  Fine.  That's what I've been using.  But I recently got general mailing from them promoting Frontline Plus.  So, does brand really matter?  

Burke gets Virbac Iverhart Max tablets for heartworm.  

Are the drugs generally less $ on-line?  Is script from vet needed to purchase any of those drugs on-line?


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I'll have to get more flea & tick protection soon. I remember Steve Dale on the radio saying ask your vet which protection to use. Last year when I first started going to vet practice where I still go, they sold me Vectra 3D. Fine. That's what I've been using. But I recently got general mailing from them promoting Frontline Plus. So, does brand really matter?
> 
> Burke gets Virbac Iverhart Max tablets for heartworm.
> 
> Are the drugs generally less $ on-line? Is script from vet needed to purchase any of those drugs on-line?


Use what works for your dog. *shrug* Most are very effective, but fleas in some areas build up a resistance. If the drug is Rx only, then yes, your vet will need to give a script. The heartworm preventive requires a script. Not all flea/tick products do, though. Price varies. My vet stopped carrying much of the OTC flea products like Frontline because he says you can get the same thing cheaper at PetSmart, etc.


----------



## Sandpiper

I haven't heard about any particular flea problem in the area.  I'll get Frontline myself from now own since that's what vet is now promoting.  I just remember our Beagle getting fleas one time.  Don't think back then there was such a thing as flea protection as it is now.  Don't remember anything for heartworm either.  So many years ago.  I'm now realizing there's a lot I don't remember.

Burke is just back from groomer.  Have been trying to remember how long we (my parents and I) had Ribbon, Border Terrier of app. 40 years ago.  I've been thinking maybe 2 - 3 years?  Yet I know I never took her to groomer.  I have vague memory of once or twice trying to do some stripping myself.  Don't remember that that was successful.  But if we did have her a few years, how did she get groomed.  I'm quite sure her coat didn't get blown in the time we had her.  Some Borders' coats just naturally stay on the shorter neater side?  I simply don't remember.


----------



## CatherineM

Yeah. I want a Golden Retriever. OK?

Or even something close. Do you think I'll get one

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least I'm smart enough to know that cats are better. They take care of themselves.

<<< P U R R >>>


----------



## Sandpiper

In the 22 months I've had Burke, It's been pretty rare that I've had to take him out to do his biz in serious rain.  It's raining tonight for his last trip out.  I'm in a condo.  We have a big canopy over center of horseshoe front drive just outside the door.  Wasn't much problem peeing and pooing under it on the asphalt.  We both stayed dry.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> In the 22 months I've had Burke, It's been pretty rare that I've had to take him out to do his biz in serious rain. It's raining tonight for his last trip out. I'm in a condo. We have a big canopy over center of horseshoe front drive just outside the door. Wasn't much problem peeing and pooing under it on the asphalt. We both stayed dry.


You're fortunate. Some dogs refuse to "go" unless it's the same surface (grass, concrete, whatever) they're used to. *s* Wish we had a canopy. Magic doesn't mind but he makes me go out and get wet, too!


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> You're fortunate. Some dogs refuse to "go" unless it's the same surface (grass, concrete, whatever) they're used to. *s* Wish we had a canopy. Magic doesn't mind but he makes me go out and get wet, too!


Amy, what's the word for that? Steve Dale mentioned it on the radio once. Dogs do their biz depending on surface underfoot.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Amy, what's the word for that? Steve Dale mentioned it on the radio once. Dogs do their biz depending on surface underfoot.


I'm not sure there's a specific term--perhaps the "substrate" they prefer? Kennel raised (and puppy mill) dogs can have problems or even be fearful of unknown surfaces when all they've known is one type of place to potty. Like Steve, I recommend that puppy socialization include elimination on a variety of surfaces.


----------



## Sandpiper

Maybe the word is "substrate" or some form of it.  There was a single particular word that Steve Dale mentioned.  I don't remember.  I've been trying to search for it on related subjects, but so far no luck.


----------



## Sandpiper

It's today!! It's Burke's birthday (a/k/a Brentwood's Tax Day Blues). He's gettin' to be a big boy . . . two years old.


----------



## Leslie

Happy Birthday to Burke!

L


----------



## Amyshojai

Happy puppy B-day! Love the cake.


----------



## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Happy puppy B-day! Love the cake.


Actually the above cake was last year's. It was peanut butter. This year's is a smaller pumpkin cake. Frosting writing got messed up when cake flipped over on the way home in the car. (Box it was in flipped over.)

Took him for an excursion to local independent pet shop. (It's always had a good reputation.) They no longer sell pups and kittens. Not really much of a dog department. Mostly into birds, fish, small mammals, and reptiles. Wasn't very exciting for Burke. Got him a Nylabone. Then we went for a long walk. Cake tonight.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke's Aunt Donna (my BFF) sent birthday presents for Burke: 

Fromm grain free Surf & Turf - 12 lbs (Ingredients sound good.  Maybe I'll try it?  )
Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken - 11 lbs
Nylabone Durachew Tyrannosaurus Rex  

She was too generous.  Her birthday is next Saturday.  

I did give her my Fire 1 a few weeks ago.  Had an inexpensive sleeve for it.  She took me out for nice lunch for those.  She asked for an Oberon cover for it.  I've got that for her already.  And seasons 2 and 3 of Parenthood DVDs.  Couple other little items -- so far.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sweet! Sounds like Burke made out with some great booty.


----------



## Sandpiper

I got an e-mail from Chewy.com. So now I looked at Orijen Adult Grain-Free chow. According to DogFoodAdvisor.com, it's _good_ stuff. Another future possibility for Burke? We're loaded up with chow from Aunt Donna for a while.


----------



## Tatiana

Sandpiper said:


> I got an e-mail from Chewy.com. So now I looked at Orijen Adult Grain-Free chow. According to DogFoodAdvisor.com, it's _good_ stuff. Another future possibility for Burke? We're loaded up with chow from Aunt Donna for a while.


We sell 40+ different dog foods in our store and Orijen is by far the best food we have in the store. When we fed kibble to our now 5 yo male Scottie we fed him Orijen. It's a really good food. If you go to the Champion Pet Food website they used to have a really nice video about the sourcing for all their ingredients - we have the film on DVD and often show it in the store. DH and DS would love to be able to go through their plant (if they do that) like they did at Natura but it's all the way out in British Columbia, Canada so that won't be happening.


----------



## Sueracs

pidgeon92 said:


> Of course you should get a dog! But please


I do agree with in this matter.



pidgeon92 said:


> consider adopting a shelter dog


Would you please tell us about adopting a shelter dog?


----------



## Leslie

Sueracs said:


> I do agree with in this matter.
> Would you please tell us about adopting a shelter dog?


Hi Sue,

There is another thread here: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,57020.0.html which tells about my experiences over the past two years adopting two rescue dogs (not exactly shelter but still dogs in need of a forever home). Today is Dempsey's one year anniversary of living with us. Monday's anniversary was two weeks ago. I also wrote an article for Amy's about.com site about our rescue experience.

http://puppies.about.com/od/FindAPuppy/a/Puppy-Rescue.htm

This article does talk about the difference between shelter vs. rescue.

Please let me know if you have questions...either in the poodle thread or via PM (I don't want to hijack Burke's thread with discussions about my dogs).

L


----------



## edmjill

In October 2011, I got my first dog, actually my first pet ever!  Bella was 1o yrs old at the time, and adorable Maltese with no teeth.  In January of this year, I got a boyfriends for Bella.  His name is Chico, he's an 8 year old Maltese, and he also doesn't have any teeth.

I adore both of them!

BEST decision I ever made was to get a dog.  Second best decision I ever made was to get another dog.  I adore my flurry little babies and I am so very lucky to have them!!!!


----------



## Amyshojai

Congrats on Bella and Chico! When you have pictures, hope you'll post some.


----------



## Sandpiper

New pet shop opened near my dentist recently. Dentist yesterday so checked out the pet shop. PUPPIES and somewhat limited pet items. Bought a slow-feed bowl. Last evening decided I didn't need it. (I use a bowl with too-big-for-Burke ball in it. That slows him down.) Took it back to exchange today. Yesterday I'd seen a ceramic bowl that I liked. (Use it to hold dog related items.) Ceramic bowls were generally less than slow-feed bowl. The ceramic bowl I was interested in didn't have price on it. Store manager was there and waited on me today. She could not find price for ceramic bowl I wanted so decided it was same price as slow-feed bowl. Hmmmm. She said she'd make an exception for me. Exception?? _There are NO returns or exchanges on anything. Period._ Won't be going back there again. Policies like that make me question everything about the place. Where do the puppies come from? I don't remember much about breeds / mixes and prices. I do remember seeing price of $1,000+ on one crate.


----------



## Leslie

Personally, I would not patronize a pet shop that sells puppies. From what I've been reading, all pet shop puppies come from puppy mills. There's a pet shop not too far from me that was closed for at least a month in Jan/Feb because several dogs they sold died within in days of purchase. They are not in the headlines of the paper right now so I am not sure if they are open again or closed down permanently (there was a move for that). Whatever, I will not spend a penny (nor will I set foot in) a pet shop that sells puppies. My 2 cents.

Oh, and a PS (and I think most people know this): our rescue standard poodle, who has been with us 2 years now, was a puppy mill dog. Her first owners bought her at "Discount Pet Supply." I am sure she was adorable at 8 weeks but then she started to grow up and became too much for them to handle. Her "too much" is just very active poodle, but poodles are active dogs. Don't you think the pet store might have clued the buyers in on this? Nope, they just wanted to make a sale  

L


----------



## Sandpiper

YUM! I may start eating dog chow myself.  I don't remember seeing the Pork & Peas before. I still haven't needed to open bag of Fromm's Surf & Turf or BB grain-free chicken-based chows that my BFF gave Burke for his birthday. May eventually switch to mostly Fromm's.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is a good dog!  I do give him little nibbles when I'm "cooking" and when I'm eating.  He's always eager to eat.  But he begs and pesters very little.  When I'm eating, he's mostly off on his own.  He's a 99.99% good boy.  I sure am lucky!


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic is a master beggar. He's certain that ANYTHING we're munching should be shared. But he will go away if we tell him...and then sit and stare mournfully from across the room.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Caya stares at you and wags her tail if you look at her.


----------



## Sandpiper

First for both of us. Burke saw his doc on Tuesday. Just semi-annual exam, bordetella, heartworm and fecal tests. Dr. Roberts said -- his teeth need brushing. Really? So got a $10 sample kit. Poultry flavored paste and plastic finger brush. _We_ just tried it?? I guess? _We_ will get better at it? Burke is not thrilled. He kinda fights it. Get better and easier with time? Real brush better than the plastic finger?

Do you brush your dog's teeth? How often?

Burke is going to play at the Bellyrub Klub tomorrow. And I am going to the movies to see Before Midnight and lunch out.


----------



## balaspa

I agree, Leslie. I don't shop at pet stores that sell puppies and kittens. No reputable breeder is going to sell animals through a pet store. A breeder who is concerned with the brred wants to now where those animals are placed and will ofer to take them back if something happens. The poor souls in pet shops are coming from inhumane puppy mills and the parents are subjected to horrible treatment until they are no longer able to reproduce and then discarded.  I wouldn't buy a puppy from an Internet seller either. The best thing you can do is support a local rescue or shelter. You can shop by breed on petfinder.com. My wife and I frequently protest pet shops like Furry Babies, Happiness Is Pets, Puppy Parlor, and Petland once we adopted a little dog from a puppy mill in KY who was lucky enought to be transported to the Chicago area to get adopted out. She's the sweetest dog and surrounds herself with toys and bathes them all the time. That's because she had her puppies taken away from her too soon so often   We also got a little cockapoo from a no kill shelter and she was found as a stray and went through animal control and was pulled by a no kill shelter. It feels good to rescue a dog and our certainly seem to appreciate thier second chance. I can't even by supplies at places that support mills now.

For food, we are feeding our dogs Acana Grasslands. It's made by the same company as Orijen, but is not quite as rich.


----------



## Sandpiper

When I first started thinking about a dog -- Border Terrier in particular -- a shelter in Huntley had one.  But something in their whole adoption procedure turned me off.  You had to submit application by e-mail / mail.  OK.  Shelter advised if you were approved.  OK.  Then dog was available on a certain date at a certain time.  No appointment.  Kinda "first come - first get it" kinda thing.  (I would guess after some further approval.)  But I'm not stressing myself out to get there and be first in who knows how long a line.  (Probably not a "line", but at least a few adopter-wannabes.)  I didn't care for that.  Not good.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

we don't brush our dogs teeth. We were advised to but have not. HEck, we struggle to brush the babies teeth. We really need to be better with his teeth. (sigh)

When we remember, we pick up dog chews for teeth and that type of thing.


----------



## Amyshojai

I've got a how-to-brush-teeth article here (also some alternatives that can help!)

http://puppies.about.com/od/OwnerPuppyCare/a/How-To-Brush-Puppies-Teeth.htm


----------



## Leslie

We've been giving Monday and Dempsey Enzadent chews--we got them for Monday right when we first got her. The groomer recommended them and they had been recommended to her by her vet. Monday and Dempsey's teeth get high marks at the vet so I am assuming the Enzadents are helping.

I just ordered a bunch from Amazon. I had been getting them at VetDepot but I see that at the moment, Amazon has a much better price.

L


----------



## Amyshojai

I like the Greenies (Magic and Seren  LOVE THEM) and now they've been completely re-formulated that nagging worry about previous issues isn't there. I was invited on a press trip to visit the company last summer and was impressed with the folks doing the research. They are a bit pricy but still. The Enzadent looks like a good product, too.


----------



## Sandpiper

Leslie said:


> We've been giving Monday and Dempsey Enzadent chews--we got them for Monday right when we first got her. The groomer recommended them and they had been recommended to her by her vet. Monday and Dempsey's teeth get high marks at the vet so I am assuming the Enzadents are helping.
> 
> I just ordered a bunch from Amazon. I had been getting them at VetDepot but I see that at the moment, Amazon has a much better price.
> 
> L


What size Enzadent for my now 18 lb Burke? I looked at reviews -- petite or small? One reviewer said small size was too big for his 11 and 14 lb poodles. Petite was perfect. Maybe small would be good for Burke as he is bigger and probably more powerful chewer. What would you say? I'd never heard of Enzadent before. If they do work -- easier than brushing.


----------



## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> What size Enzadent for my now 18 lb Burke? I looked at reviews -- petite or small? One reviewer said small size was too big for his 11 and 14 lb poodles. Petite was perfect. Maybe small would be good for Burke as he is bigger and probably more powerful chewer. What would you say? I'd never heard of Enzadent before. If they do work -- easier than brushing.


Unfortunately, they don't seem to have any definition for what they call "petite," "small," etc. If Burke is 18 lbs and a powerful chewer, I would suggest trying a bag of the small chews. If they are too big, then size down the next time. I doubt they will be too small but if they are, you can go to medium. I buy the large chews for Monday and Dempsey and each one lasts about 30 minutes. We give them each one a day.

Hunt around, too, to buy them. Price seems to vary widely across the Internet.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Thanks, Leslie.

Burke was at his "Klub" today (five hours of daycare).  Come home.  ZZZZZZZZZ Eat Pee Poo Then ZZZZZZZZ until bedtime trip outside around midnight to do biz.  ZZZZZZZZZZ again until morning.


----------



## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> Thanks, Leslie.
> 
> Burke was at his "Klub" today (five hours of daycare). Come home. ZZZZZZZZZ Eat Pee Poo Then ZZZZZZZZ until bedtime trip outside around midnight to do biz. ZZZZZZZZZZ again until morning.


Unfortunately, Monday is not in a ZZZZZZ mood this evening. LOL.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Hmmm.  So I was trying to find out more about Vet Solutions Enzadent.  Tried typing 

vetsolutions.com

into address bar.  Hmmmm.  What do you com up with?  Interesting surprise here.    No, nothing like that.

Then I tried vet-solutions.com.  May be what I was looking for, but it's in Spanish.  Don't see anything on the page that gives you choice of language.


----------



## Leslie

Here's a product info sheet in English:

http://www.vetdepot.com/product-labels/enzadent-chews-dogs.pdf

and the company website:

http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/AdditionalProducts/OralHygiene/OralHygiene.html

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Did you try - vetsolutions.com - in your address bar?  

I get a page with AT&T and Motorola at the top.  It is info particular to ME about my modem, internet connection, etc., etc.  I'm sure it's a lot of good info, but not being techie I don't understand it.  That was surprise!


----------



## Sandpiper

Sandpiper said:


> We made it home! Crying first half trip -- hour, hour plus. Then he quieted down. Just a little crying here and there. Sometimes he was so quiet I was asking, "Are you OK?" Couple of water and pee stops.
> 
> Once we got into my condo, he did a little investigating. Looks like I'll have to get the remotes off the floor. Supper in . . . supper out. (My first time picking up.) Maybe he's so little that I don't necessarily know when he's squatting? Haven't noticed any peeing. He has been drinking.
> 
> He seems to enjoy nibbling on grass and leaves? I know dogs eat grass when their stomach is upset. I wonder . . . breeder has kept the four pups in the pen with newspaper on the bottom. I don't know if Burke is too familiar with grass?
> 
> He has been sleeping in his closed crate here. Chased his tail. Chewed on rubber key ring. And startled himself when he saw his reflection in the oven window.
> 
> I'm guessing both of us will sleep well tonight.


Two year anniversary tomorrow. WE made it.  Good boy, Burke!


----------



## Amyshojai

Awwww....Good boy, indeed!


----------



## Sandpiper




----------



## Tripp

What a cutie.  I love that foxy terrier face.


----------



## Carrien

Sandpiper said:


> Two year anniversary tomorrow. WE made it.  Good boy, Burke!
> 
> ah Congrats to you and Burke! time flies doesn't it...Burke is adorable!


----------



## Sandpiper

Grrrrrr.  I ordered Enzadent from Amazon Marketplace seller.  Package came today.  Of course, that's not what I got.  I hope this doesn't end up being difficult due to AMP seller and not directly from  Amazon.


----------



## Leslie

Hm, sorry to hear you didn't get the right thing. I ordered 6 bags of the large Enzadents from Entirely Pets ($4.95 shipping) and the order arrived the other day. Everything was fine in terms of the contents.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

SURPRISE! That didn't take long.  I went through process on Amazon's site to say I got wrong item from a MarketPlace seller. Then I called Amazon and told them. They gave me AMP seller's phone number to call later on Monday if I hadn't heard from them. Amazon must have given the AMP seller my number (which is OK with me). That seller called me few minutes ago. Sending out correct product / Enzadent. Don't have to return what I got.

I got Pet-Tabs Original Formula Vitamin-Mineral Supplement / chewable tablets. I don't plan on giving them to Burke. Anyone want 'em?

*ETA:* Through the years, I've had very few problems with my Amazon orders. When I have, they have been fixed quickly enough and certainly to my satisfaction.


----------



## Sandpiper

Enzadents finally came today. Got the small size. Pieces were bigger than I expected -- not that it matters. At first Burke said, "No, thank you." Took it in his mouth and then dropped it a few times. But after a little more urging, he is working at a piece now.

Is the idea that the dog eventually eats it? Just chew it for a while? I imagine it gets soft and pliable and juicy and icky? Have you ever had to mop up a puddle of dog saliva? Yuck. Eeeeeew.

*ETA:* Only app. 5 - 10 minutes later, it's gone down the hatch. Is that what's suppose to happen? That was fast.


----------



## Leslie

Sandpiper said:


> Enzadents finally came today. Got the small size. Pieces were bigger than I expected -- not that it matters. At first Burke said, "No, thank you." Took it in his mouth and then dropped it a few times. But after a little more urging, he is working at a piece now.
> 
> Is the idea that the dog eventually eats it? Just chew it for a while? I imagine it gets soft and pliable and juicy and icky? Have you ever had to mop up a puddle of dog saliva? Yuck. Eeeeeew.
> 
> *ETA:* Only app. 5 - 10 minutes later, it's gone down the hatch. Is that what's suppose to happen? That was fast.


Yup, they disappear and we never have anything to clean up. For Monday and Dempsey, they probably last about 15 minutes or so. You are supposed to give them the chew after a meal, when saliva is flowing and food particles are on their teeth--that's when the Enzadent works best.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke just isn't much interested in it.  Takes a lot of urging for him to chew.  Come on, Burke.  Chew it!


----------



## Amyshojai

Well, I have some of those sterilized bones from PetsMart that come with peanut butter stuffing or other goodies...and once Magical-Dawg has gotten out as much as he can, I fill 'em up again with various treats. That seems to keep his teeth relatively clean. He LOVES the Greenies...and when they go on sale, I get 'em for him but he'd eat them by the bucketful. They work but are a bit pricy for a big dog.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke had started to chew the Enzadent.  Then dropped it.  Couldn't get him interested again.  I left it on the floor.  Was gone for about four hours.  Longest I've left him alone.  (He was OK.  )  After I'd been back a while, he picked it up and started chewing.  Gone.  So maybe the next will go quick.  I hope.


----------



## tabatha kristy

Go for it!  It will be the love of your life. There are a lot of great dogs out there looking for the perfect home like yours. Now is the time to make one of their dreams come true!


----------



## Sandpiper

tabatha kristy said:


> Go for it! It will be the love of your life. There are a lot of great dogs out there looking for the perfect home like yours. Now is the time to make one of their dreams come true!


*?* I did. I got Burke two years ago this month. He's now 26 months old.

Burke had a meal a little while ago. Tried another piece of Enzadent. Took only a little urging this time. Finished that. Now he's sniffing the bag. Maybe he's taking a liking to them -- I hope.


----------



## Tatiana

Are y'all aware that Enzadents are rawhide? Check the list of ingredients:

http://www.drugs.com/vet/enzadent-oral-care-chews-for-dogs.html

Rawhide is not good for dogs. It's the inner portion of the hide (the outer portion is the leather we use) and it is not easily digestible for dogs. There are many cases where it has not been digested and impacts the dogs intestines. It is so detrimental to dogs that DH refuses to carry any rawhide/beef hide in our stores.

As far as dental chews go...

Our first recommendation recommendation is Z-Bones by Zukes. They contain no beef hide/rawhide and no objectionable ingredients. We use them often for our dogs and they work well and they love them.
http://www.zukes.com/dogs/z-bones.html

Our second recommendation to our customers is Blue BoneS by Blue Buffalo. They also contain no objectionable ingredients and we have used them successfully. http://bluebuffalo.com/dog-treats/blue-bones

DH just prefers the Z-Bones but both are good.

Each owner is free to make their own determination in regards to health and nutrition for their animals. I just wanted to make you aware of the ingredients of the products available.


----------



## Leslie

As I said downthread, Monday has been chewing Enzadents for two years without any problem. They were recommended to me by the groomer, who buys them from her vet. Our vet didn't have any objection when he asked what we were doing for the dogs' teeth and noted that their teeth were in excellent condition (no plaque). While some dogs might have problems with rawhide, that doesn't seem to be the case for us.

Greenies, on the other hand caused lots of problems. Obviously, every dog is different.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

I looked at reviews of Greenies on Amazon. While lots of positive comments, some said when they opened packages of Greenies they also found worms and larvae. Hmmmmm.

Good article about dogs and rawhide.


----------



## Leslie

Thanks for the link to that article, Sandpiper. Interesting info.

L


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke now likes the Enzadents.  Bag sits out in the open (not opened).  He looks that way often enough.  "Can I have one?"


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke really does enjoy his "crackers" now.  Cracker = Enzadent.  One after every meal.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke made a CD!


----------



## Sandpiper

'Bout time to get more Enzadents / rawhide dental chews.  Burke loves his "crackers".  I've been ordering from dog stuff from Chewy.com lately.  They sell a similar product which could be OK.  One review about the bag of Virbac chews . . . bag is sold by chew count, not by weight as bag of Enzadents is.  Some of the medium 30 count Virbac chews the reviewer got were not medium size -- they were petite size.  Not what she paid for and maybe not so safe for her dog.  It's true of bag of Enzadents also, but being bag is sold by weight it's not much of a loss if necessary to toss out too small pieces.


----------



## Sandpiper

Yesterday I started switching Burke from Fromm Surf & Turf grain-free chow to Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken grain-free -- 3/4 Fromm - 1/4 Blue Buffalo. This morning he vomited just a little. (In his 27 months, he's never vomited before.) Got him outside. He saw a squirrel kinda up close so that put anything else out of his mind including vomiting. We stayed outside a little longer. (Aaaaah. It's cool.  ) No more vomiting. Should I be concerned about the change in chow already? Try same proportions again today? I don't have much of Fromm left. Set aside just about enough to make the switch.

*ETA:* Went for a long walk (in the cool). OK. His usual self. I'll continue switching.


----------



## LectorsBooks

Our dog has stomach problems and Blue Buffalo was recommended to help with the vomiting. Maybe your pup just needs to get used to it? I'd try the same proportions and see how he goes.


----------



## Sandpiper

He's almost completely switched to Blue Buffalo now.  He's OK.  Just the one little vomit the other morning.  Actually, during the whole bag of Fromm Surf & Turf, his poos were formed but very soft.  Not so good for pickin' up.  Already seems as though they're comin' out firmer.  Even though both chows are grain-free, can it still make a difference in his poos?


----------



## Pawz4me

Absolutely.  Grains get blamed for a lot of stuff that they shouldn't be blamed for IMO.  A particular dog can have a problem with just about any ingredient in a food.  Over the years my dogs, including my Brittany who has numerous allergies, have had many more issues with proteins than with grains.  Sometimes the fat content of a food can be an issue.  There are so many more things to consider than just grains when it comes to allergies or sensitive tummies.


----------



## JRWoodward

Our new dog is a Boston terrier mix that my stepdaughter found. We have not been able to find her family. We're still looking. I love her, and will happily keep her, but I can't escape the guilty feeling that some elderly couple or several children are sick with mourning over their friend. CHIP YOUR DOGS! All our pets are chipped and it has saved us from tragedy. Collars and tags are nice, but they fall off. Chips last. If you find a dog wandering around, most vets (maybe all of them?) will run a chip for free. So will the shelter. CHIP YOUR DOGS.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke is chipped.    Breeder had it done before I got him.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

We have the dogs chipped and a collar saying that they are chipped. OK so the tag is probably a bit silly because if the collar is lost the tag is lost but we update the tag info online when we go on vacation and the like so that people can contact us. By including a tag that says he is chipped, a rescue or shelter can call the numbers on the tag and then get additional info from the chip.


----------



## Beatriz

Sandpiper said:


> I should? Should I? I love dogs. They seem to at least like me.
> 
> I came a little close yesterday. At least it made me a little more sure about it. Went to local pet shop to get bird seed. They always have a few mixed breed puppies. Couple weeks ago I dreamed that I got a dachshund. So yesterday in the pet shop they had mixed min dachsie / min pin. I sure thought about it, but no.
> 
> There is a certain breed I want. Border Terrier. I had one 40 years ago. No dog since. Beagles and Borders -- my favs. (Borders book store also favorite. )
> 
> This is my long gone Border, Ribbon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a condo. (Dogs under 20 lbs. permitted. Full grown Borders are app. 15 lbs.) No longer work. Home a lot. NO family.
> 
> I don't remember how we housebroke our Beagle and Border. Today it's generally done with a crate / crate training? Borders are smart little things. I don't think it would be too much of a problem (hopefully). It's said of Borders -- they're a big dog in a little dog's body.


Get a small dog and make life easier for yourself. I recommend a yorkiepoo, they are wonderful companions and very smart (also they don't shed). My doggie demands a lot of sacrifices but she gives me so much more in return that I don't know what I'd do with her.


----------



## Sandpiper

Beatriz said:


> Get a small dog and make life easier for yourself. I recommend a yorkiepoo, they are wonderful companions and very smart (also they don't shed). My doggie demands a lot of sacrifices but she gives me so much more in return that I don't know what I'd do with her.


I did get a dog -- two years ago this past June.  He is lying at my feet now. I got another Border Terrier. He's blue and tan. They average about 17 lbs. His name is Burke -- after Dr. Walter Burke, the vet who many many years ago saved my childhood beagle's life (see my signature).


----------



## Amyshojai

Magic is chipped, too. I recommend getting the chip scanned at each vet visit just to check and be sure it hasn't migrated. Some do...and even though the pet is microchipped, the scanner can miss it.


----------



## Jane917

Both my dogs were microchipped by the breeder. Thanks for the suggestion to check at vet visits to see if the chip has migrated.


----------



## JRWoodward

The little Boston Terrier mix that my stepdaughter found wandering and hungry is probably going to live with us now. She already has a dog, and she is moving to a house with three dogs  (pit bulls!) and there simply isn't room for her. She's welcome here - she's house-trained and very affectionate - but I feel guilty. Somebody out there misses her (and I suspect she misses them). We've tried the shelter, Boston Terrier rescue, Craigslist, the paper, etc. Nada. We even walked her in the neighborhood where she was found and nobody recognized her.
If she were just chipped, she would be home now.


----------



## Amyshojai

How lucky, though, that your step daughter found her, and connected her with you!


----------



## Sandpiper

A problem? We'll see. I live in a single building condo. Of course, I have always picked up after Burke. Then I put little bag in chute on 1st floor that goes into dumpster (on the other side of the wall). Through the two years I've had Burke, little bag probably at times does get smashed among all the garbage and junk that goes into dumpsters. Especially bad if little bag is at bottom of dumpster. So find a note on my door this morning -- keep little bags in your unit until garbage is picked up on Tuesdays and Fridays. I am NOT keeping Burke's poo in my unit. So in a return note, I suggested a little covered and bag-lined garbage can near dumpsters "For the Dogs". Whoever moves dumpsters to the street on garbage days can put big bag of little bags of poo (very few 20 lb or less dogs in the building) onto top of garbage in the dumpsters. _So then I went across the street to Ace Hardware and got covered garbage can and put it by chute on 1st floor._ A little later I saw Condo Board prez who sent me note. Told him what I'd done. He said, "We'll talk." I don't see much to talk about. What I did works. Will NOT keep Burke's poo in my unit. Whacha think?


----------



## Amyshojai

Sounds like a good plan. There are "containment" systems for cats that likely would work for small dogs but I can't imagine keeping the waste of a large dog for that length of time. 

Litter Locker and Litter Genie are two products...in case the guy is a hard nose about it. *s*


----------



## JRWoodward

Our new do is an older female Boston terrier mix. My stepdaughter found her in the rain one night, cold, hungry and loaded with fleas. She is obviously somebody's little darling, but we have not been able to find her family. (We tried canvassing the neighborhood, Craigslist, the shelter, etc. Nothing.) She's a treasure to have around, but I feel guilty because I know that someone misses her terribly. If she were chipped, she'd be home right now. I know I've said this before, and I can be a bore on the subject, but CHIP YOUR DOG (and cats). It is just as important a neuter/spay and vaccination. The vet or the shelter will do it in ten minutes and it costs $20. If you find a stray animal, any vet or shelter will run the chip scanner for free. Tragedy prevented!


----------



## Sandpiper

Looks like the Condo is going to go with my idea (or at least try it).  Prez said he'd tell maintenance people to put big bag of little bags of poo in the dumpster on garbage days.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

The diaper genie works great for Lucas's diapers. We put in a small arm and hammer deodorizer and rarely smell anything. He is 13 months old so his diapers can be impressive.  It might be an option if your current solution doesn't work.


----------



## Amyshojai

MamaProfCrash said:


> The diaper genie works great for Lucas's diapers. We put in a small arm and hammer deodorizer and rarely smell anything. He is 13 months old so his diapers can be impressive. It might be an option if your current solution doesn't work.


The same company now make the Litter Genie. Good for a single pet--not great for multiples or a large one. *s* Glad the Condo is going with the idea for Burke et al!


----------



## JRWoodward

As I write this, our new Boston terrier mix is curled up beside me, drowsing in chair. She is charming, house-trained, laid-back and tidy. She's more than welcome to live here with us as long as she needs. BUT -- she isn't ours. Somebody loves her. Somebody misses her. Perhaps they cried when they lost her, and perhaps they still put out food in hopes that she'll come back one day. 
She ran away from her home on the 4th of July weekend, possibly because she is afraid of loud noises. She was found by a kind lady who gave her a home briefly, and they she ran away again. My stepdaughter found her, wet, cold, flea-ridden and hungry. We took her in and have tried every since to find her human family. We struck out with the Shelter, Craigslist, the local paper, Boston Terrier Rescue and the vet's office. Posters didn't help, either. 
I cannot say this loudly enough: CHIP YOUR PETS. Any vet or shelter can painlessly insert a little RFID chip into a dog or cat that will give them an ID number. If they get lost, anyone can take them to a vet or shelter and run the chip. That enabled us to get our beloved gray cat back after she crawled into somebody's car and wound up miles away. We could have returned our little guest by now, if only her family had taken the time to chip her. Chipping is just like neuter/spay and vaccination: something every loving pet owner should do. CHIP YOUR PETS.


----------



## Casper Parks

JRWoodward said:


> As I write this, our new Boston terrier mix is curled up beside me, drowsing in chair. She is charming, house-trained, laid-back and tidy. She's more than welcome to live here with us as long as she needs. BUT -- she isn't ours. Somebody loves her. Somebody misses her. Perhaps they cried when they lost her, and perhaps they still put out food in hopes that she'll come back one day.
> She ran away from her home on the 4th of July weekend, possibly because she is afraid of loud noises. She was found by a kind lady who gave her a home briefly, and they she ran away again. My stepdaughter found her, wet, cold, flea-ridden and hungry. We took her in and have tried every since to find her human family. We struck out with the Shelter, Craigslist, the local paper, Boston Terrier Rescue and the vet's office. Posters didn't help, either.
> I cannot say this loudly enough: CHIP YOUR PETS. Any vet or shelter can painlessly insert a little RFID chip into a dog or cat that will give them an ID number. If they get lost, anyone can take them to a vet or shelter and run the chip. That enabled us to get our beloved gray cat back after she crawled into somebody's car and wound up miles away. We could have returned our little guest by now, if only her family had taken the time to chip her. Chipping is just like neuter/spay and vaccination: something every loving pet owner should do. CHIP YOUR PETS.


Congrads on new family member.

Photo?


----------



## Sandpiper

Mostly venting or? I want to get a long with condo neighbors, but . . . . _No other unit owners on this floor_ have a problem with Burke (and I) playing ball in the hall just a little during the day -- only Avis. Avis and her good buddy Sue, unit owner above her, do not like dogs. It is not just me saying this. It is fact. They complain and create problems and drama, etc., etc. So I was told by Condo Board prez no playin' ball in the hall. Before this dog thing started, Avis had told me she it didn't bother her, but that's not what she said at condo meeting two meetings ago. (I wasn't at that one.) Burke has so much fun. So we have been playin' in the hall for a few days. Saw Avis in the hall today when Burke and I were playin'. She reported me. Got a call from Condo prez. OK. If that's the game Avis want to play, then I reported her. Mostly she and her buddy Sue have so much stuff stored in their garage parking places that cars extend beyond pillars into common area drive through the garage. If cars were hit . . . . I'd never said anything about that before until I got the call. And Avis' condo hall closet is next to my front door. When she's rummaging around in the closet, it can get noisy.

Thanks for listening.

P.S. I have been living here for 28 years. No problems like this before. Avis and Sue were here before me. When are _they_ leaving?


----------



## Amyshojai

Oh dang....so sorry that happened.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper has been throwing up the last 24 hours. He woke up yesterday morning at 4:30 and threw up some of his dinner and a little tomato. Cooper and Caya both love eating the tomatoes in our yard. We put bird netting up around the plants to keep them out, which has decreased the amount of tomatoes consumed but they still get some. Too many tomatoes and Cooper gets an upset stomach.

He threw up his breakfast yeasterday, no tomatoes consumed. When I got home form work, I found two puddles of biley throw up. Then he threw up again, more bile. He threw up his dinner at 10:30 last night. We are taking him to the doctor today. I hope he didn't get something of DB stuck somewhere, he normally leaves the boys toys alone (we have caught Caya knawing on wood puzzle pieces but not Cooper).


----------



## Amyshojai

Keep us posted, hope it's just a passing sick tummy.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

He has a foreign object in his digestive track. They couldn't tell what. The Dr said to give him noodle soup and canned dog food. Also to give him Tums with each meal. Hubby stayed home to keep an eye on him. I came home early to spell the hubby. Hopefully he can pass this on his own.


----------



## Amyshojai

MamaProfCrash said:


> He has a foreign object in his digestive track. They couldn't tell what. The Dr said to give him noodle soup and canned dog food. Also to give him Tums with each meal. Hubby stayed home to keep an eye on him. I came home early to spell the hubby. Hopefully he can pass this on his own.


Oh no! Paws crossed it passes. They couldn't use a 'scope to get it out?


----------



## MamaProfCrash

No idea, I didn't take him. He is sleeping next to me on the bed.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

The good news, it has been 24 hours since his last throw up. He has eaten three meals and has not had any issues yet. Still no poop but if he is keeping the food down,the poop will come. And his energy level is great.


----------



## crebel

Good news, MamaProf.  I hope all is well this morning, I have been thinking about Cooper.


----------



## Amyshojai

That's great! Watch, too, that when he DOES poop it's not unproductive straining....


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Fed the dogs 1/2 a can of wet food each (do you really think we can feed Cooper and not Caya? She is loving this. More food and different food and every 3-4 hours) at 6 AM. Still no throw up. Hubby reports a poop with no straining but nothing in it. Hubby is calling the Vet in a little bit to see if I need to come home and feed Cooper around 1. I am hoping not to have to go home just because it saves me a 30 minute trip to and from the house. 

Cooper seems to be his normal nuerotic, happy self. The smaller meals are not being thrown up and he is pooping. I am taking that as a good sign. We would prefer he not need to look at having this removed with a scope or surgery for his comfort and our wallets. Both dogs like Tums. They see it as a treat and get very excited when we bust them out. Good thing I had a ton left over after my pregnancy. 

Amy, we have not let him out without one of us keeping an eye on him. He hasn't even tried to poop prior to this mornings poop. He has been peeing a lot, so he had been getting enough water and the like but no attempts at poop. I am guessing that is because he hadn't been getting anything into his tummy too poop so he hadn't had the urge.


----------



## Amyshojai

So far, so good. Eating small meals helps the stomach acids soften "whatever" might be in the track so it passes more readily with less sharp edges. And most small objects pass within 24-72 hours (longer for heavy or very large objects). Painful straining (with tucking the tummy/hunches in pain) is the time to call the vet again. Paws crossed, still, that "this too shall pass!"


----------



## Sandpiper

I'm kinda always looking for the perfect treat pouch. I think I found it. Link I bought it locally. Six pockets -- two are for rolls of bags, one with dispenser slit. (Or whatever else you can think up to put in those pockets.) I really really like it.


----------



## edmjill

Just an update on my baby, Chico!!! Chico is a teacup Maltese; I got him because I didn't want my other dog Bella (also a Maltese) to be lonely.

I adopted him in January from a foster home/rescue. Before that Chico was used for breeding at a puppy mill  He had been treated terribly - his 5 remaining teeth had to be removed, he had an undiagnosed heart condition, weighed only about 4 lbs and was covered in sores. When the foster people took Chico to the vet, the vet suggested that they euthanize Chico!!!! Luckily, they didn't; instead they nursed him back to health.

The rescue/foster people had him for about 6 months before I came along.

Chico now weighs about 5.5 lbs, takes medicine 2x/day for his heart, has no teeth*... and he is the LIGHT OF MY LIFE!!! (Don't tell Bella) He is an absolute joy to have. Getting Bella first and then getting a boyfriend for her were the two best decisions I ever made! I adore both of them! Chico has boundless energy and is very affectionate and very mischievous.

*Bella doesn't have any teeth either. I'm her 5th owner, and she was 10 yrs old when I got her... Why people kept getting rid of her is beyond me. She is dumb as a post ;-) and sweet as can be.

Even though both dogs are toothless, they eat whatever they can hoover, whether it's soft food, kibble, or a pizza crust ;-)

Forgive me for being a dingbat, but I cannot figure out how to insert a photo here. So, instead, here is a link to a blog post I recently did and it has a photo of my babies in the bathtub. Chico is the one with the tongue hanging out.

http://jilledmondson.blogspot.ca/2013/08/its-actually-rather-boring.html

I did not grow up with any pets, so getting these two little furballs has been an eye opener. Best thing I ever did!


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Great news for Chico! and Bella! Sometimes it takes finding the right person for a dog to be happy. 

I have this feeling that Cooper would not have done well in many homes. He is loveable, fun, and protective but awful on a leash and nuerotic as all hell and gone. One of his siblings was returned to the foster 4 times, so I think that the traits run in the family. We love Cooper.

He seems to be doing well. The Vet said to return to his normal feeding pattern so we did. No throw up. His poops are a bit soft but we think that is from two cans of chicken soup a day for three days. He is back to his normal energy level and having a good time chasing balls and playing. Both Caya and Cooper keep coming to us at the four hour mark, sitting nicely, and wagging their tails asking to be fed. They woke up with me this morning and sat up in their beds, tails wagging. It is going to take a while for them to get back into the normal routine.

We have not found the foreign object Cooper ate so we are assuming he digested it. It is nice to not have to worry about the little guy so much. I am reasonably sure that Caya has understood the conversations DH and I have had and is going to try and convince Cooper to have another sock soon. She really likes eating and enjoyed the more regular feed times.


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## Sandpiper

I asked chow expert in the Happy Dog Barkery about Fromm Grain-Free Surf & Turf and Burke's formed but extremely soft poos during the whole bag of chow.  She thought it could be that fish is too rich for Burke.  I had asked here about a grain-free lamb-based chow.  Tatiana (?) said not any / many of that because lamb is expensive.  I got some sample bags of chow at the Barkery including a Taste of the Wild grain-free lamb-based chow.  At Chewy.com, a 15 lb bag of that is only $29.  Have there been any problems with Taste of the Wild chows?


----------



## Amyshojai

Jill, love the picture! That tongue hanging out is priceless. So glad that you three found each other.

Cooper news is great! Glad I stopped in for my doggy fix.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper and Caya eat Taste of Wild Lamb and they do fine on it. Their poops are normally fine.


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## Sandpiper

MamaProfCrash said:
 

> Cooper and Caya eat Taste of Wild Lamb and they do fine on it. Their poops are normally fine.


Muchas gracias, Mama. Happy grain-free lamb is available. I'm sure Burke will eat through a 15 lb bag of that.


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## MamaProfCrash

Cooper is very food sensitive. It was the fifth food we tried for him and the only one that seemed to work. He did seem to do just fine with chicken soup....

Seriously, he was on prescription dog food for sensitive stomachs and would have massive diarriha (sp) when we tried anything else. It took us a while but we got to the solution. I am going to be seriously bummed if there is another recall of the food (there was one a while back) because the idea of transitioning him to another food scares the bejebus out of me. 

Caya, on the other hand, could eat anything and would be fine and want more. She thinks she is meant to be a 100 pound dog.


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## Sandpiper

Burke has had explosive diarrhea  just the one time -- 11:45 P.M. this past New Year's Eve.  So thankful he held it until we went out.  He hadn't given any indication he had tummy trouble?!  It was a surprise to me -- and him?


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## Sandpiper

So we can no longer play ball in the hall.  A little while ago someone at daycare asked if there were tennis courts around where I live.  Yes.  My high school fenced tennis courts are a few blocks away.  Take him there and throw the ball.  We went there.  Fencing isn't good -- not to the ground.  Kinda high off the ground.  Doesn't work.  There is a village park few blocks in the other direction -- with tennis courts.  Went there today.  It works!!  Good fencing to the ground.  Don't think they're used much.  We went in.  Closed the gate.  I dropped the leash.  Rolled, threw, bounced the ball.  Burke ran and ran and ran.  And then . . . enough.  "I gotta pee."  There's a dog fountain by the courts.  There are asphalt walks through the park.  The village supplies poo bags in the park.  So maybe Burke can run off a pound or two.  His harness does seem to be getting a little snugger?

He's takin' a nap now.


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## Amyshojai

Very good news! Exercise is so important--as is safety. I like having "new" dogs meet for the first time through a fence or tennis net, too. It's not the dog's "owned" property so typically there's less angst.


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## Sandpiper

It is a BIG park. No actual dog park within. A lot of open space with some trees sprinkled throughout. Concentration of trees in the parking area so it's shaded. There is a good size pond with walk around it. Problem today like I ran into few years ago -- Canada geese. Goose doo. Ugh! That can really spoil the pond area. I don't think there are ever too many dogs there at one time. Only saw one other today while we were there.

This is our neighborhood including the park in the left of the screenshot. BIG. Gray area at the top is the parking lot. Tennis and skating courts very near parking.


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## Amyshojai

Urk, bird poop. Some dogs would love to roll in that.

This past week Magic had an allergic reaction to something--we thought he'd hurt his shoulder. He held up a forepaw, limped, was in awful pain. And an hour later, the paw swelled to double in size...trip to the vet, but by the time we got there, the swelling was nearly gone and he again put weight on it. Anyway...we've got 13 acres and hard to supervise everything. Dogs manage to get into the ONE thing that they shouldn't, LOL!

Oh, the cat's sick, too. URI. Poor kitty...never been sick a day in her life, and now this.


----------



## Sandpiper

Too darn hot for the next few days to run outside -- low - mid 90s!!  But Friday . . . high of 69 and sunny.  Yessss!


----------



## Jane917

Just ran into this article from a Vet friend of mine....the 10 most "needy" dogs. Leslie and I fit right in! 

http://www.vetstreet.com/the-10-most-high-maintenance-dog-breeds?WT.mc_id=cc_yahoo


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## Amyshojai

Ooooh, and all the pictures are from the awesome Mary Bloom! (she's the official photographer for Westmister, too)


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## Sandpiper

Burke has learned what the trainer said he couldn't.  

He has learned to hit the service bell.  I thought I'd have to hold it for him on the floor so it wouldn't move.  (NO carpeting in my place.)  That didn't work.  My hand got all scratched up.  So I just left it and told him "Hit".  At first it got batted around the floor a lot.  But he got better and better at it.  His percentage of good solid hits is quite high.  Sometime he just plays with it.  But now he knows to use it to get my attention when I'm out of the room or my back is to him.  And once he connected it to get my attention cuz "I gotta go."  I looked at him and he looked at the door.  Smart boy!    Except when he piddles when I go out (and he's been out just before I leave).


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## Sandpiper

My trainer's business is It's a Paws-itive Thing. She is up for a small business commercial spot during the SUPER BOWL!!! She needs votes votes votes. You can vote once a day. Vote here!

Please vote.


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## Sandpiper

*Problem:* Burke has taken to peeing inside -- when I'm gone. No problem when I am here. Because the barking definitely is under control with the spray collar, he has (had?) his freedom when I'm gone. He is not destructive in the least. But he's taken to peeing in front of my front door when I go out. I take him out to do biz shortly before I leave. I come home. Floor is wet. He gets reprimanded. Next couple or so times when I go out, floor is dry when I get home. Then the next time -- puddle. So last three times I've gone out, he goes in his crate. (Remington plastic / intermediate size I think it is. Big enough.) Mucho panting with puddle of drool when I get home. Separation anxiety. But today when I got home . . . hmmmm. Don't think it was drool / saliva. Mat was generally wet. Took him outside. Poo -- NO pee. Without seeing him do it, I'm sure he peed in his crate.

I've e-mailed my trainer. Haven't heard from her yet. Any suggestions here what to do about it? Think I'll try putting him in his crate with no mat / bed -- just a chew toy. I think it's separation anxiety. And/or is he just being obstinate / difficult? Because one of his littler mates had extreme separation anxiety, that must be in his genes? But did I contribute to it by not leaving him alone much when he was just a little pup? Should he have been left alone more to learn that he would be OK?

Have to laugh -- he sure does use the service bell. I'm in the tub and I hear "ding ding ding" in the living room. "Not now, Burke."


----------



## Carrien

Hi Sandpiper
Surely sounds like Seperation anxiety as I am going thru this with my pup who is now 8 months old. 
You can start by conditioning him, if you are going to leave him free...practice leaving...pick up your keys, put them down, put your coat on and vacuum so that he doesn't associate your keys or coat with leaving, all baby steps in progress, if it's not coat time maybe hang your purse off your shoulder and walk around as if it's as normal as can be. When he no longer reacts to these triggers than step outside...use a cue word, be back.... Wait a minute or two and come in and good boy but not much affection, you want your coming and going to just be part of life and not a major celebration.  Do this many times if he has no reaction to a minute move up to five minutes...keep increasing time...
I found exercise is the key a tired dog is a good dog....I walk mine at 5:30 am fast pace, then we play ball in darkness as the sun starts to rise...inside and he gets supervised squeaky toy time and then more yard time and the last 20 min at home before work no real contact...it's hard....but he gets a frozen kong stuffed with all natural peanut butter and some homemade chicken mixed in....

My boy has crate anxiety, seperation anxiety..I contribute this 100% to my husband who was unemployed when I brought the puppy home at ten weeks and remained unemployed until he was almost six months old.  He only crated him when he wanted to mow the lawn or had a job interview and all hell broke loose from messing in his crate, flinging it out into carpets and walls and rolling in it...very difficult with a puppy who doesn't like rain or baths....he chewed the bars until gums bleeding and believe this was the reason he lost his puppy teeth faster...found them outside his crate, just two....he digs until his feet are swollen and bleeding and spins in circles, chews up his tail.... I tried a lot of thing, he gets rescue remedy for pets in his kong, mixed in....does it work?  Not sure, I tried it myself and he does quiet my racing mind....when he got a job I felt so sick I have a sitter three hours a day...
We change toys up very couple of days...then things seem new and interesting.  I use a molecule ball and that Keeps his attention, I bought thru a dogs ear calming music, he howled even more, he is more rock and roll than classical apparently.... I even took him to a dog communicator which we got a free reading from our pet store....I thought well it's something to do and expected nothing but was rather surprised at what she said....  I also tried Vermont Naturals Calming Treats but found he had super duper zoomies for hours non stop about two hours after he had this.

We set Biko our puppy free very scary as we have nice things and three weeks he was excellent and this week he went to town on the couch....

Also try Elk Antler...if you haven't tried one before start with a split....I found a company www.mountaindogchews.com and ordered from them, the best quality I have seen and has no dangerous processing like some in the big box store plus I will support small family business anyway over big box. I am really happy with the quality I got and while Biko likes antlers when these arrived he stopped touching his one and will only chew these.  

It's not easy to overcome and it's not your fault but with a lot of time and patience Burke can start to gain some confidence...don't expect overnight miracles....I am 6 months into this and we have good days and really bad days...today was a bad but  not too bad day...he ate more of the couch but oh well....no sense in getting upset, it doesn't fix the couch.  Also dogs live in the moment correction for peeing in the house long after means nothing....wasted words and so just breathe deeply, you can help him with patience. Expect setbacks but ramp up his exercise BEFORE you go out...always make sure he is settled and calm...you also have to watch this as my pup knows if my alarm goes off then I am leaving, he knows weekends mean I am home with him so I step out for 30 min or so....I found that he is perfect, I would just hang in the garage....it's my car starting that triggers him...also my husband can't leave with me...I must exit thru the garage and hubby must leave out the front door our usual routine just a few minutes spaced if we are going out together....our boys SA caused us to miss many social events because of guilt knowing he was going to howl and harm himself if we went out...he no longer harms himself, he is harming our things...but no more howling much to the delight of our neighbors I am sure....

Sending you and Burke my best.. 
carol


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> *Problem:* Burke has taken to peeing inside -- when I'm gone. No problem when I am here. Because the barking definitely is under control with the spray collar, he has (had?) his freedom when I'm gone. He is not destructive in the least. But he's taken to peeing in front of my front door when I go out. I take him out to do biz shortly before I leave. I come home. Floor is wet. He gets reprimanded. [/quite]
> 
> He gets reprimanded when you come home? If you don't catch him in the act, it's likely he'll just think...'Mom comes home and I get yelled at, oh no!' and not connect the reprimand to the pee. Remember, dogs have about a 30-second memory of infractions. Would the reprimands aggravate the peeing? Hmmnnn, don't know enough to say but might have some impact.
> 
> Separation anxiety more often is damage or self-injury. This may be something else--hard to say. Urinary tract infections can prompt 'em to need to "go" more urgently. If he's healthy, a belly band may help (it wraps around the tummy, covers the penis, so if he wets he has to live with it next to HIS skin).
> 
> Sorry for the brevity, I'm at deadline on the next project so just wanted to offer a quick note or two. *s*


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojal said:


> He gets reprimanded when you come home? If you don't catch him in the act, it's likely he'll just think...'Mom comes home and I get yelled at, oh no!' and not connect the reprimand to the pee. Remember, dogs have about a 30-second memory of infractions. Would the reprimands aggravate the peeing? Hmmnnn, don't know enough to say but might have some impact.
> 
> Separation anxiety more often is damage or self-injury. This may be something else--hard to say. Urinary tract infections can prompt 'em to need to "go" more urgently. If he's healthy, a belly band may help (it wraps around the tummy, covers the penis, so if he wets he has to live with it next to HIS skin).
> 
> Sorry for the brevity, I'm at deadline on the next project so just wanted to offer a quick note or two. *s*


I'll admit, I do have trouble these days with dog pros saying dogs can't associate . . . . Dogs learn things, they put 2 + 2 together to figure things out on their own. When it's a good thing, the dog is smart -- he's got a brain. He remembers. But when he does a negative thing -- dog can't understand. Doesn't remember. I just don't buy it.

I come home to a puddle on the floor, so I didn't catch him in the act. I, Sandpiper, didn't do it. I put Burke's nose near it -- NO NO NO. Couple wallops on the behind. He goes in the crate for a while. Reprimand like in the olden days -- minus the crate. It worked then. Working now. (?) But basically ignoring it because not caught in the act -- sorry, I just don't buy it.


----------



## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> I'll admit, I do have trouble these days with dog pros saying dogs can't associate . . . . Dogs learn things, they put 2 + 2 together to figure things out on their own. When it's a good thing, the dog is smart -- he's got a brain. He remembers. But when he does a negative thing -- dog can't understand. Doesn't remember. I just don't buy it.
> 
> I come home to a puddle on the floor, so I didn't catch him in the act. I, Sandpiper, didn't do it. I put Burke's nose near it -- NO NO NO. Couple wallops on the behind. He goes in the crate for a while. Reprimand like in the olden days -- minus the crate. It worked then. Working now. (?) But basically ignoring it because not caught in the act -- sorry, I just don't buy it.


So...how's that working for you? *s*

Of course they learn and associate--just not hours after the fact! LOL! Since this is working so well for you, I won't offer any more suggestions. But please let us know what your trainer says about your technique.

best,
amy


----------



## Pawz4me

Sandpiper said:


> I put Burke's nose near it -- NO NO NO. Couple wallops on the behind. He goes in the crate for a while. Reprimand like in the olden days -- minus the crate. It worked then. Working now. (?) But basically ignoring it because not caught in the act -- sorry, I just don't buy it.


Goodness. IRL I haven't encountered anybody in years who still thinks that kind of training works. If you think it does . . . nothing I have to suggest will be useful to you. I wish you good luck. And I agree with Amy, I would be *very* interested in what your trainer has to say about your methods.


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## Cherise

I work at home, so I'm able to avoid leaving our dogs alone for more than 5 hours. 

In your shoes, I think I would put down newspaper or pee pads and tell him "Good Boy" so long as he went on those.


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## Lee44

For two and 1/2 years I have been trying to teach my chihuahua to play fetch the ball and bring the ball back to me, so that I can throw it and she could then fetch it again.  I used to play this with my previous chi and we both loved it.

Punkin rarely plays my game, and I never understood why she couldn't "get" such a simple concept.  She would always run full force to get the ball, but would either chew on the ball and play with it, or look at me with her head cocked looking back at me, with a very definitive look, as she stared back at me.

I finally came to the conclusion that she was not going to play ball the way that I wanted, so I started playing her game, which is throw the ball, she runs after the ball, and I run after her.  She then lets me catch her and I throw the ball again.  

We are now both very happy playing ball together.

Time for dog to train human > 2 1/2 years


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## Sandpiper

Burke is a big 3 years old.  His birthday was April 14. Out of 12 toys, he does pretty well at getting 9 of them when I ask by name. If he's going for the wrong one, "No, not that one," he drops it and tries again. He does pretty well though. What he is not getting is, "Get your tail." I keep trying, but he's not catching on to that at all.  He's still very good at hitting the service bell.

The Bellyrub Klub, Burke's wonderful daycare, is moving at the end of June.  Only 2.5 miles further, but current / old location was so convenient. New location is further and in the opposite direction from whatever I want to go to when Burke is there. There isn't much choice in daycare. Nothing else near as good. It really is good -- extra good. Burke loves it. OK, Burke. You can still go there.

An animal hospital in the area is one of three in the nation conducting a  clinical trial. This is where I took Burke for emergency treatment when he had three seizures in one day and where Oprah took one of her dogs in an emergency.


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## Cherise

Thanks for the update, Sandpiper. I think it's time to update your signature with a picture of your new dog!

We lost both of our dogs to old age this spring, the second one just over a week ago. We had been talking about taking a year off between getting another dog, to do the things we couldn't do when we had them. (We could not bring ourselves to leave them with a sitter. We don't have children, so we get over attached to pets.)

But now that we have an empty house, it seems so lonely and quiet! I miss them so much, I'm pushing for getting another dog in October! Heck with this year off thing. We can do what we need to do this summer! Heh! But this time we're just getting one dog. Two dogs are four times as much work!


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## Amyshojai

Cherise, so very sorry for your loss. That's hard to lose one, let alone two dogs so close together. Smart to plan to wait...but again, smart to be flexible if the perfect one appears. 

Sandpiper, nice to hear the update about Burke.


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## Sandpiper

My bro Beagle will stay as my signature. He was born *60 years ago* yesterday, May 5!! I'm in the process of updating my will, etc. As I have no family, big chunk is going to the Beagle Freedom Project. 

*ETA:* Back from a walk. We saw a Beagle.


----------



## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> My bro Beagle will stay as my signature. He was born *60 years ago* yesterday, May 5!! I'm in the process of updating my will, etc. As I have no family, big chunk is going to the Beagle Freedom Project.


Oh! I didn't mean remove him! I meant add the new one!


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## Sandpiper

Cherise Kelley said:


> Oh! I didn't mean remove him! I meant add the new one!


Long time ago, I might have had pic of Burke too? Something more in my signature Whatever, it was too much. I'm not techie so didn't understand. Bro Beagle is it.


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## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

It amazes me the love many of us have for pets. I wish we have that kind of love for each other. No fights, no wars, no hatred and so on....


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## carmela3

Yes, having a dog is great.  
Maybe you can find such breed or whatever breed you want in a shelter for dogs. 
We used to have three dogs and it was fun. Now we just have one dog and still it was fun.


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## Sandpiper

This photo is from late '40s. Two veterinarians in front of the Merrick Animal Hospital in Brookfield, IL. One of them is Dr. Andy Merrick and the other is *DR. WALTER BURKE*!!! I wish there was a close-up, but this is all I found. Dr. Burke! (I'm guessing it's him on the right, but I don't know.)










Burke had semi-annual check-up this past Wednesday. Dr. Roberts said -- brush his teeth. OK. Bought the toothpaste at the vet, but not brush. Ordered brush from Amazon yesterday at 12:35 P.M. Prime, not overnight delivery. It was here in a little less than 24 hours. I love Amazon.

Anyway, attempted the tooth brushing this morning. Guess it went OK. It's not like uniformly brushing your own teeth. Got his mouth open and got brush to back teeth. "Burke, you have toofies all the way back there?" He was workin' his tongue while I was trying to brush. Has to have done some good? Get better with time? Anyone else brush? Experiences with it?


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## Sandpiper

Burke is stinkin' up the joint lately.    I've always put a big ball in his bowl of chow to slow him down.  Otherwise he'd really inhale his food.  In the past, he'd occasionally be smelly.  But lately . . . .  Ugh!  So today I bought a big glass pie plate.  Will spread his meals out in that.  Slow him even more?  He's been eating Canidae grain-free chow for the first time.  He is a ways into the bag 12 lb bag.  Just started stinkin' more recently.  Suggestions?


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## Cherise

Do you mean he is farting? If you do find a cure for that, let me know! Oreo had the stinkiest farts I have ever smelled. The only cure in his case was passing away.


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## Amyshojai

Could be the chick peas in the food. Different dogs react to different ingredients. Adding digestive enzymes might help...again, depends on the dog what works best. Plain nonflavor yogurt helps many dogs.


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## Sandpiper

Yes, I mean farting.  Once in a while I think I hear him.  Just a little itty bitty -- pft.  (How you spell it?)  

I'll have to try a little plain yogurt.  I alway have it cuz I eat some every day.  That's how Burke get's his 9:00 p.m. phenobarbital tablet -- in just a very little bit of yogurt.  9:00 a.m. pill is usually in his breakfast.


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## Jane917

Sandpiper said:


> Yes, I mean farting. Once in a while I think I hear him. Just a little itty bitty -- pft. (How you spell it?)
> 
> I'll have to try a little plain yogurt. I alway have it cuz I eat some every day. That's how Burke get's his 9:00 p.m. phenobarbital tablet -- in just a very little bit of yogurt. 9:00 a.m. pill is usually in his breakfast.


You are very lucky if only once in a while you think you hear him fart! Kona and Jack leave no questions about who is farting!


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## Sandpiper

I did give him his supper spread out in a pie plate.  That slowed him down a little more.  So far no stink this evening.


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## Sandpiper

Burke looked at the plate of chow . . . "Whazzat?" And then he ate. No stink since supper last night.


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## Amyshojai

Good deal! slowing down the gulps prevents the air swallows...which otherwise  gotta come out somewhere!


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## Sandpiper

Recent portrait. Crossing his paws was Burke's idea -- not mine. (Used my iPhone 6 Plus.)


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## Amyshojai

Handsome fellow!


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## Cherise

Very distinguished! Here's our new dog, Pumpkin.


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## Sandpiper

Big boy!  Has he still got some growing to do?


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## Amyshojai

Wow, that's a lovely pup!


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## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> Big boy! Has he still got some growing to do?


I don't think so. She's a year and a half old already. We might get a DNA test to see which breeds she is. We have heard everything from Pit Bull Terrier to Catahoula Leopard Dog, and many in between. The animal shelter said she was a shepherd mix, and I'm told by an ex-employee that's what they say when they have no idea.


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## Sandpiper

Cherise Kelley said:


> The animal shelter said she was a shepherd mix, and I'm told by an ex-employee that's what they say when they have no idea.


And I think often if it's a small dog, it's a "terrier mix".


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## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> And I think often if it's a small dog, it's a "terrier mix".


LOL!


----------



## Sandpiper

I found him!!! I named my Border Terrier for long-ago veterinarian who saved my childhood bro Beagle's life, Dr. Walter Burke. I found him. Well, obit. Died not all that long ago in Florida -- March 23, 2013. He would have been about 30 YO when we first took our Beagle to him.


----------



## Amyshojai

How cool! 

Interesting to see the price of the vaccine, too ($10) pretty pricy for the times.


----------



## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> And I think often if it's a small dog, it's a "terrier mix".


Cool on finding your vet, Sandpiper!

We got a DNA test on Pumpkin. She is a first generation cross between a boxer and a German Shepherd. I've never had a boxer before. Talk about energy! I took this the day we got Pumpkin.


----------



## KindleGirl

Sandpiper said:


> Recent portrait. Crossing his paws was Burke's idea -- not mine. (Used my iPhone 6 Plus.)


Sandpiper, he's adorable! Has he been a good dog for you? Would you recommend this breed?

Anyone out there have a Westie? We lost our Corgi a couple months ago and I'm just now getting to the point where I can look for a new puppy without crying. We currently have a black lab mix and he's 14.5 so he's pretty mellow now, but still pretty active. We're trying to narrow it down to a few breeds and see what we can find near us. We're in the beginning stages of research but the Westie looks like a good option so far. It's always interesting to hear from owners and not just using what info you get online.


----------



## Amyshojai

KindleGirl said:


> Anyone out there have a Westie? We lost our Corgi a couple months ago and I'm just now getting to the point where I can look for a new puppy without crying. We currently have a black lab mix and he's 14.5 so he's pretty mellow now, but still pretty active. We're trying to narrow it down to a few breeds and see what we can find near us. We're in the beginning stages of research but the Westie looks like a good option so far. It's always interesting to hear from owners and not just using what info you get online.


So very sorry for your loss. I love the look and personality of the Westie but do be aware--they're often very prone to skin allergies. You might want to watch the Westminster Kennel Club show on TV tonight and tomorrow, there will be some wonderful dogs shown and David Frei always does such a great job of describing the various breeds.


----------



## KindleGirl

Amyshojai said:


> So very sorry for your loss. I love the look and personality of the Westie but do be aware--they're often very prone to skin allergies. You might want to watch the Westminster Kennel Club show on TV tonight and tomorrow, there will be some wonderful dogs shown and David Frei always does such a great job of describing the various breeds.


Thanks...I will definitely look that up and probably record it so we can watch it over again if we need to. I'm going to pick your brain, Amy, since it looks like you know dogs well. Are there similar breeds to the Westie in personality and size that don't have the allergy/health problems as much? Most information on breeds tend to list problems that each breed has, but it's always hard to know if that is just something that could happen for some, or if it's something that happens to many.


----------



## Sandpiper

KindleGirl said:


> Sandpiper, he's adorable! Has he been a good dog for you? Would you recommend this breed?
> 
> Anyone out there have a Westie? We lost our Corgi a couple months ago and I'm just now getting to the point where I can look for a new puppy without crying. We currently have a black lab mix and he's 14.5 so he's pretty mellow now, but still pretty active. We're trying to narrow it down to a few breeds and see what we can find near us. We're in the beginning stages of research but the Westie looks like a good option so far. It's always interesting to hear from owners and not just using what info you get online.


Burke is a purebred Border Terrier. I had one for a few years (not her whole life due to life circumstances / death in my family) forty years ago. Few years after that, both Mom and I regretted not keeping her. So yes, a good breed. Previously I hadn't heard of the breed. Went through a little breed book and decided on a Border Terrier. There's a story about that . . . .

Remember, this was in app. early '70s. Started looking for a BT in pet shops, then newspaper ads. Nothing. Asked local vet. (Dr. Burke was gone by then I think.) He suggested checking Dog World magazine. That magazine covers the whole country. There was no big section on the breed with ads. Looked through the many pages of small ads in the back. ONE ad for BTs in the whole country. I'm in the Chicago 'burbs. (Still here.) The ad was for BTs in the next 'burb west!!!!!! And so I got Ribbon.










So Beagles and Border Terriers are my breeds. They're 16 - 17 lbs. BTs are smart. Burke does catch on to things fast. Do something once or twice and he's caught on to my routines. Curious about things. Kinda ready to try things when urged (with food). They look rough and tumble, but . . . not into snow and rain usually. No, thank you. Definitely lap dog. Like to cuddle. Want to be near you mostly. Their coat is not brush / comb and go. You "could" clip them, but would have a totally different look. They need to be stripped. If you don't k now stripping, check it out on-line. You could do it. I take Burke to a groomer. Told her he doesn't have to be done for show. I'm happy with what she does. Not many groomers strip.


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## Amyshojai

There are over 400 breeds, LOL!

Is it the size? the type of breed (terrier?). The grooming considerations (short or long coat)? Good with kids or ? Lots to go into the decision.

Let's see....Norfolk or Norwich Terrier, Cairn Terrier or maybe Min.Schnauzer?


----------



## KindleGirl

Lol, Amy. I know I put you in a tough spot. There are so many choices, that's why we research for months before decidiing on one. But it's always fun to talk to people and see what they say. Getting real opinions always help. 

Yes, there are a lot of things that go into the decision. We have 4 kids so 6 people in our house and varying ideas of what we want. The guys in the house want the big dogs, my daughter and I want smaller ones. Since our lab is still doing well, the big dog idea is on hold until later. So, basically my daughter and I are picking this one, with input from the others of course. We had the Corgi and loved her. She was smart, funny,  great size and had lots of personality. She was busy when younger, but never so busy that it drove me crazy. She seemed happy to do things when it came up, otherwise happy to just lay around and be with us. That's what I'm looking for, without choosing another Corgi. Love them dearly but don't think I could get another one right now.  So, something 30 lbs or smaller, not hyper, doesn't have to be a terrier (never had one so far), all of the kids are 17+ so no small children around right now. Grooming is a consideration. Since we've had the Corgi and had boatloads of hair everywhere all the time, I'm not sure it can get much worse...lol.  I don't mind some hair around or having to have them groomed, athough I don't want something that needs groomed frequently. I see my life changing in the next 5 years as some of the kids likely will be flying the coop and I'm thinking of this dog as more of a companion for me.

Funny that you mention the Norwich and Norfolk...that was what I mentioned to my husband. They don't seem to be highly popular and therefore harder to find in our area. 

Sandpiper...thanks for the info. on the BT. I will definitely be checking further into this breed. That was a neat story about finding Ribbon. Sometimes finding what you want nearby is the hardest part of buying a puppy.


----------



## Amyshojai

Love Corgies, just great dogs! I'm partial to herding breeds anyway. *s*

How about an Australian Shepherd? They also now are available in miniature versions. Very smart, highly trainable, some can be a bit high energy, too.  They're also athletes so probably would appeal to the guys. *s* Or another fav of mine, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Gorgeous small dog, very family friendly. They can have heart issues, though, so that's something to ask the breeder about.


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## Sandpiper

If you want one of the sweetest dogs ever -- BEAGLE!        ad infinitum


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## Amyshojai

Yes, BEAGLES are fantastic family pets! They do bark a lot, though. *s* And they'll show burglars where to find the silver, LOL!


----------



## Sandpiper

We didn't have a barking problem with our Beagle.  Burke, BT -- yes, I do kind of.  Have it under control with my gentle spray collar.  But yes, Beagle will show anyone in.  I remember when people Mom didn't know would come to our door, she'd hold Beagle back by the collar.  Person would ask if he's friendly.  "Gotta be careful."


----------



## Leslie

If I can interject--please consider a rescue dog. We have two purebred dogs (Brittany and Poodle) that we got through rescue. There is a thread here on Kboards that discusses everything we went through. It's been a good experience overall and I am happy knowing I made a difference in these two dogs lives.

L


----------



## Cherise

Yep. We always rescue. It is a challenge, but the rewards are many!


----------



## Amyshojai

Rescue dogs are wonderful. So are carefully chosen pedigree dogs. Isn't it fantastic there are so many choices to fit every person out there? Several year's ago when I attended Westminster, one of the dogs being shown, a Puli no less, had been a rescue--imagine that?!


----------



## Sandpiper

Dog belonging to relative of a friend would let anyone in.  "Happy to see you."  But try to leave . . . that was a different story.  Dog came close to breaking skin on my leg through my jeans.


----------



## Amyshojai

LOL! & yikes! I've had some clients with dogs like that, a scary situation. FWIW, most dog bites happen in doorways--important dog real estate, plus close quarters, etc. Glad you weren't seriously injured.


----------



## KindleGirl

I'm sure it is wonderfully rewarding to rescue a dog and after seeing the commercials on tv it makes you want to run out and save them all. But at this time I don't think a rescue is a good option for my family. It is a busy household with lots of different schedules and although we can offer a loving home with training, exercise and lots of play, I don't think we can commit to a dog that may have lots of issues to deal with. I would love to be able to help the dogs, but it's just not right for us now.  It's wonderful that a lot of you are able to help the dogs and hope maybe someday it will be right for us. 

We don't take the job of finding a new puppy lightly though. We have lots of things to consider in our household so it usually takes us several months of researching. discussing and thinking about what breed we want and what will work for us. We want that puppy to be just as happy as we are. We had the same process when we picked our Corgi 12 years ago and it worked out extremely well for us.

Thanks for the breed suggestions, Amy! I'm off to watch some of the Westminster dog show that I DVR'd....


----------



## Amyshojai

Keep us posted!

I researched a looooong time before we got our current GSD and we were on a waiting list for 2 years. So glad you know up front what you and your family needs.

We'll want pictures, ya know!


----------



## Sienna_98

Just a couple of things to add to this thread.  I've been doing Australian Shepherd rescue for a long time.  They are great dogs, but if hair is an issue...they can make hair balls in which a Corgi could hide, lol.

As a plug for rescue, a good rescue group will match the dog with your situation.  Not all rescue dogs have issues.  Sometimes they get turned over to rescue because the owner died, or went to assisted living, or went off to college, etc.  I will admit that the 'couch potato' Aussie is a rare creature.  Aussies generally end up in rescue because they are a smart, high energy breed and if you don't feed those needs with training and tasks, they can get very...er... creative...when bored.  

My personal choice for a small dog is the Papillon.  They look fragile, but they are all heart.  They are wicked smart and can have energy needs like an Aussie, but in a much smaller body and are pretty manageable.  I would think if you enjoyed a Corgi, you could appreciate a Papillon.  They have longer hair, but I don't recall having any issues with shedding.  Regular brushing kept it completely under control.  No blowing of coat like Corgis or Aussies.  

Enjoy your search!


----------



## Maxx

We have 2 Chessies and 1 miniature poodle.  I highly reccomend the min. poodle since you are looking for a smaller dog. My poodle weighs about 20 lbs.  He is also very smart and loves to play. He is one of the best retrievers I've ever seen. He does have to be groomed.  I take him about every 8 weeks, the upside is that he does not shed at all.


----------



## Tripp

I never heard the term "blowing a coat" before, but boy does it fit.


----------



## SunshineOnMe

We have two mini- dachshunds, which I love to pieces... also barkers.


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## KindleGirl

Amyshojai said:


> Keep us posted!
> 
> I researched a looooong time before we got our current GSD and we were on a waiting list for 2 years. So glad you know up front what you and your family needs.
> 
> We'll want pictures, ya know!


I love reading everyone's comments on what they have and love, and I'm sure I'll be popping in for input when we get it narrowed down to a couple. I will most certainly post pictures....who can resist puppy pictures?!



Tripp said:


> I never heard the term "blowing a coat" before, but boy does it fit.


I had heard this term before, and yes, it does fit, doesn't it? Our Corgi didn't like to be brushed at all, so that presented a challenge keeping up with the hairballs. 
Sienna....I can't imagine even more hair.  That's probably a deal breaker for me, but I'm sure they are wonderful dogs to own! The Papillon always comes up in conversation because my daughter has loved them since we last researched dogs 12 years ago.


----------



## KindleGirl

Anyone have any experience with American Eskimo dogs? That one has been on our list for a while and looks like it has a lot of the traits we are looking for....but again the hair issue. It has 3 different sizes but doesn't seem to be very prevalent around or near Indiana, which would make it harder to get one.


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## Sandpiper

Couple examples of Border Terriers with blown coats. They need stripping.


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## MamaProfCrash

Kindle Girl, you can rescue a puppy which gives you a blank slate to train and raise and is not likely to have issues. Dogs sold by breeders will not necessarily be issue free. We adopted two dogs as pups, they were four months old. We took them to puppy school and other training. There are also rescues for pure breeds that will have puppies. 

I understand why people choose to work with breeders but I hope that folks don't choose to rescue a dog based on rescue dogs having issues. There are some breeds where the breeding has actually caused issues (inbred illnesses and personality quirks). And a pure breed pup does not mean that the dog will not have its own personality and quirks. 

I know folks who worked with breeders and love their dogs. I know folks who adopted from rescues and love their dogs. I know folks in both situations who had bad experiences.


----------



## Amyshojai

Yes, as I've said before--there are many paths to finding the dog of your dreams. The key is educating yourself so that you can choose the ideal path (and dog!) for you!


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## MamaProfCrash

Sandpiper said:


> Couple examples of Border Terriers with blown coats. They need stripping.


LOL one of our dogs had a DNA test done and is suppose to be American Eskimo dog, chihuahua, and mastiff. heheh We love Caya (who looks beagle and Australian shepherd) but I can't really talk to her American Eskimo traits.


----------



## Sienna_98

I should take a picture of the mountain of hair after brushing one of my dogs. It's rather terrifying, lol.

If you pursue getting a Papillon, they do have a couple of health concerns to watch for.  The first is their teeth.  They seem prone to needing frequent dentals.  So, you may want to be sure to include that in your budget and to train the pup to have his teeth brushed from a young age.  

Also, they can have issues with their kneecaps (luxating patella), which can be addressed surgically should it become a problem.  My Papillon Taz was a rescue.  I did have to have his teeth done very regularly, but he did not have any issues with his knees.  At 7.5# he more than held his own among the Aussies and could get the most recalcitrant goat running for the barn, lol.  No idea why, but the goats were all terrified of him.  I did a lot of herding back then and people would come out with their border collies.  Goats can be stubborn (ha!) and some border collies just didn't have the power to make the goats move.  I'd announce, "let me get a *real* herding dog."  Then open the house door and Taz would coming barreling out then scoot under the fence and the goats would flee before this little ball of fluff.  I always got a good laugh out of it.


----------



## Amyshojai

One year, Furminator had a contest to make "critters" out of the combed out fluff. Hilarious! 

And with my German Shepherd, we could build a whole other dog with what he sheds.


----------



## MamaProfCrash

Cooper leaves piles around the house. I vacuum regularly and still can't keep up.


----------



## KindleGirl

Amyshojai said:


> And with my German Shepherd, we could build a whole other dog with what he sheds.


It seems a lot of the breeds we like are big hairballs, go figure! Guess we will probably just learn to live with it like we did with our Corgi.


----------



## Jane917

I have had so many dogs in my life that it is hard to pinpoint a favorite breed. I had a sweet cocker as a child, then a beagle, and a few mutts. The beagle was very loved, but ate clothes off the clothesline (probably not an issue these days), chewed through the fence, and howled whenever it caught his fancy. Right now I have an 8 year old brittany who has the energy of a pup, and a 7 year old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. If you can't ignore sad eyes and the Cavalier "stare", this dog is not for you. Also, he is a velcro dog, and you can't even go to the bathroom in private. I think the favorite dogs I have had was an English Spaniel (all love), and two golden retrievers I have had. 

Whatever breed you get, any puppy takes lots of training. It sounds like you are responsibly doing all your research. Of all the dogs I have had, the mutts have been just as smart and loving as the purebreds. Let us know what you decide!

One of my sons has a lovely sweet Boston terrier. I have known a few French bulldogs that I have liked. I once owned and English Bulldog who was gentle with the kids, but had the energy of a slug.


----------



## Sandpiper

Recent photos. You get money AND cookies at the bank!! "I want my cookie NOW!"

















This is Minn, Burke's bestest friend in the neighborhood. Minn is a ten year old female pit bull. Really sweet. Burke sees Minn walk by and he loses it. There's no shutting him up. We gotta go out and say hello. Yesterday Barb, Minn's mom, was walking by with Minn and another dog. Dog was bigger than Burke, but a little smaller than Minn. We went down to see them and all was good. They walked by again today. We went down. Got to them and Burke just started BARKing at the other dog today. BARK BARK BARK No shutting him up so we turned around and came inside. Why? Do dogs get jealous? Burke -- Minn is my friend. You stay away.


----------



## Amyshojai

Maybe he smelled funny.


----------



## Sandpiper

Burke went to the Bellyrub Klub for the day today.  Asked there if dogs get jealous.  No.  So maybe the other dog did smell funny the second day.  Haven't seen them again in the past couple days which is unusual.  Burke, did you scare them all away?


----------



## Cherise

Dogs definitely DO get jealous! I spend an hour at the dog park every day watching them, and I have seen it countless times. Some especially get jealous if their human pets another dog.


----------



## KindleGirl

We have decided on a Samoyed puppy! After doing a lot of research it seems it will fit into our family quite well. We will be bringing home the puppy on Saturday! We are beyond excited and can't wait to have a new one to love. It's been 13 years since we've had a puppy in the house, and it's been fun doing all the prep to get ready...a lot like preparing for a human baby again.   Our Lab may not be as excited, but I think he'll enjoy it as well....someone to entertain him while he lays around. He's been the one and only since we lost our Corgi in December. Hopefully they will be friends from the start. Coming up with a name everyone agrees on has been the challenge around here. If we can just narrow it down to a couple we can see which one fits better after he arrives. Right now I guess I'll enjoy the last week before my house becomes a big pile of white hair!


----------



## Jane917

KindleGirl said:


> We have decided on a Samoyed puppy! After doing a lot of research it seems it will fit into our family quite well. We will be bringing home the puppy on Saturday! We are beyond excited and can't wait to have a new one to love. It's been 13 years since we've had a puppy in the house, and it's been fun doing all the prep to get ready...a lot like preparing for a human baby again.  Our Lab may not be as excited, but I think he'll enjoy it as well....someone to entertain him while he lays around. He's been the one and only since we lost our Corgi in December. Hopefully they will be friends from the start. Coming up with a name everyone agrees on has been the challenge around here. If we can just narrow it down to a couple we can see which one fits better after he arrives. Right now I guess I'll enjoy the last week before my house becomes a big pile of white hair!


Such excitement of a new puppy. Be sure to post pictures when he/she arrives home!


----------



## *DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon)

I always wonder why more and more people are counting on animal love more than human love. Is that the direction modern society is heading to.... I still like to count on human love.

Sorry for this odd post. Wish you tons of love...


----------



## KindleGirl

For myself, I can't say I am counting on animal love more than human love. My house is full of both. My husband and I have 4 kids along with our 2 dogs. We really enjoy the dogs and they add so much to our lives. Each kind of love is special to me.


----------



## Tripp

*DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I always wonder why more and more people are counting on animal love more than human love. Is that the direction modern society is heading to.... I still like to count on human love.
> 
> Sorry for this odd post. Wish you tons of love...


DrDLN,

In light of the fact that we cannot read or watch the news these days without feeling that our society is in decay and we are hating and hurting each other, I can appreciate your point of view and can understand why you are asking. In fact, I agree that we need to be sure that we take care of our brothers and sisters in need any and every time possible.

However, I think that we love our pets as an enhancement to our lives. I would even say that our pets help us to learn to love others as they teach us the value of unconditional love.

There are many other benefits to love and be loved by our fur babies. Many studies support the fact that having a pet can improve our health. This link from WebMD just outlines a few of them.

http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/features/health-benefits-of-pets

Love is one of those rare things that the more we use it, the bigger it gets. Those of us that love our pets have more than enough to share with everyone.


----------



## crebel

Tripp said:


> DrDLN,
> 
> In light of the fact that we cannot read or watch the news these days without feeling that our society is in decay and we are hating and hurting each other, I can appreciate your point of view and can understand why you are asking. In fact, I agree that we need to be sure that we take care of our brothers and sisters in need any and every time possible.
> 
> However, I think that we love our pets as an enhancement to our lives. I would even say that our pets help us to learn to love others as they teach us the value of unconditional love.
> 
> There are many other benefits to love and be loved by our fur babies. Many studies support the fact that having a pet can improve our health. This link from WebMD just outlines a few of them.
> 
> http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/features/health-benefits-of-pets
> 
> Love is one of those rare things that the more we use it, the bigger it gets. Those of us that love our pets have more than enough to share with everyone.


Excellent post, Tripp. I agree with everything you said.


----------



## alawston

After our wedding next month, the only firm plan that the nearly Mrs Lawston and I have made is that we're getting a puppy. A male cocker spaniel to be precise, and Mel is worryingly specific about what colour it ought to be. I've suggested that it will end up being the first puppy that she lays eyes on, as she doesn't tend to be too discerning when it comes to cuddling random dogs when we're out and about, but she's adamant (for now) that it has to be a male cocker. That we'll call Arthur, or possibly Galahad.

Our only worry is how Arthur/Galahad will get on with my 10 year old sulky cat, Buscemi. The last time we had a dog in the flat, at a New Year's party, Buscemi shot under the sofa and wouldn't come out until the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel left - five hours later. But we think we'll be able to keep them apart to start with and introduce them slowly...


----------



## KindleGirl

alawston...congrats on the wedding and good luck with the new puppy!! My husband had a male cocker spaniel when we met. He really enjoyed him, although he did have a lot of ear issues due to the long floppy ears. I think it's typical to try to pick colors, etc. but as you said, once you lay eyes on them, it doesn't matter....it's love at first sight.

It sounds like you've got the right idea to introduce the puppy and your cat slowly. If you are in need of a good puppy care book I recommend this one... It's written by a member of kboards and is an excellent book that covers everything!! I was frantically reading it when we found out we had only 2 weeks before our puppy came home. We had puppies before but it had been 12+ years so it was kind of like starting over on some things. Awesome book.


----------



## alawston

That looks like a very useful book indeed! I've heard about the ear issues from a few people, we'll look out for any trouble. Luckily we have an excellent vet less than a mile away...

I'm very excited about the whole thing


----------



## Sandpiper

We have a quasi exercise room in the building with donated equipment. Someone donated a "fancy jobber" Nordic Track incline treadmill. Tried Burke on it recently. He loves it! We walk into the room, he sees it . . . "I want to get on." About 2.5 MPH keeps him moving comfortably.


----------



## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> We have a quasi exercise room in the building with donated equipment. Someone donated a "fancy jobber" Nordic Track incline treadmill. Tried Burke on it recently. He loves it! We walk into the room, he sees it . . . "I want to get on." About 2.5 MPH keeps him moving comfortably.


How sweet he looks!

I drive 8 miles each way to the dog park every day so that Pumpkin can run around for half an hour. a treadmill would save me a lot of time ... but it's fun and also a social activity, for both of us.


----------



## Sandpiper

Treadmill isn't his daily exercise by any means.  I just wondered how he would react to a moving sidewalk.  He likes it!


----------



## Cherise

Sandpiper said:


> Treadmill isn't his daily exercise by any means. I just wondered how he would react to a moving sidewalk. He likes it!


----------



## alawston

alawston said:


> After our wedding next month, the only firm plan that the nearly Mrs Lawston and I have made is that we're getting a puppy. A male cocker spaniel to be precise, and Mel is worryingly specific about what colour it ought to be. I've suggested that it will end up being the first puppy that she lays eyes on, as she doesn't tend to be too discerning when it comes to cuddling random dogs when we're out and about, but she's adamant (for now) that it has to be a male cocker. That we'll call Arthur, or possibly Galahad.
> 
> Our only worry is how Arthur/Galahad will get on with my 10 year old sulky cat, Buscemi. The last time we had a dog in the flat, at a New Year's party, Buscemi shot under the sofa and wouldn't come out until the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel left - five hours later. But we think we'll be able to keep them apart to start with and introduce them slowly...


This is even more brilliant in hindsight. The puppy we bought was indeed the first one Melanie saw... his name was going to be Arthur right up until the moment we saw him, when she decided to call him "Eccleston" after Christopher Eccleston, who played her favourite Doctor and who recorded a little video message for our wedding, thanks to a friend.

Eccleston loves our cat, but Buscemi is having none of it - she times her visits to the flat around his sleeping time with masterful precision


----------



## Sandpiper

Happy Birthday, Spot (Beagle in my signature).  Sixty-two years ago this May 5.  I still miss him.

Uno, the Beagle who won Westminster Best in Show a number in 2008, was born 5/05/05.  Spot missed all 5s by one year -- 5/05/54.


----------



## Amyshojai

KindleGirl said:


> It sounds like you've got the right idea to introduce the puppy and your cat slowly. If you are in need of a good puppy care book I recommend this one... It's written by a member of kboards and is an excellent book that covers everything!! I was frantically reading it when we found out we had only 2 weeks before our puppy came home. We had puppies before but it had been 12+ years so it was kind of like starting over on some things. Awesome book.


Oh my doG, just saw this, THANK YOU! So glad it helped. *s*

And there is a section on introducing the puppy to cats (and vice versa). Typically, cats love status quo and want the same-old-same-old so ANY disruption can be problematic. Slow and gradual is the key. *s* And leashes and baby gates are your friend!


----------



## Sandpiper

Oh dear.  This past week Burke had a teeth cleaning and three lower incisors extracted.  He's got a gap!    I worked at brushing his teeth for a while and then didn't.  My vet said she's not very good with brushing her dogs' teeth either.  I'm going to try using a vinyl finger brush after he's healed.  Seems vets have varying opinions on toys, etc.  Rawhide-type chews for teeth cleaning not good for Burke.  Little pieces break off.  I could see him choking.  I've seen blood on them too.  Greenie type chews.  Chomp chomp swallow.  My vet says nylabone, antlers, anything hard (doesn't give to pressure from a fingernail) are not good for dogs.

Burke survived the "surgery".  He is OK.  He is on antibiotics and pain med for app. a week.  No problem giving him pills.  "Cookie, Burke?"  "Yeah!"  Down the hatch.


----------



## Jane917

Sandpiper said:


> Oh dear. This past week Burke had a teeth cleaning and three lower incisors extracted. He's got a gap!  I worked at brushing his teeth for a while and then didn't. My vet said she not very good with brushing her dogs' teeth either. I'm going to try using a vinyl finger brush after he's healed. Seems vets have varying opinions on toys, etc. Rawhide-type chews for teeth cleaning not good for Burke. Little pieces break off. I could see him choking. I've seen blood on them too. Greenie type chews. Chomp chomp swallow. My vet says nylabone, antlers, anything hard (doesn't give to pressure from a fingernail) are not good for dogs.
> 
> Burke survived the "surgery". He is OK. He is on antibiotics and pain med for app. a week. No problem giving him pills. "Cookie, Burke?" "Yeah!" Down the hatch.


Jack and Kona both had their dental work this month. Jack (9 years old) had a cleaning and 10 teeth removed. He had 9 removed last year! Kona just had a cleaning, no teeth removed. Both dogs barely noticed a thing once they got their land legs back. Jack ate soft food for a few days before returning to his kibble. He does not seem to miss his teeth at all. We give them Entadent chews once in a while. Kona eats his, Jack just gums it.


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## Sandpiper

Jane917 said:


> Jack and Kona both had their dental work this month. Jack (9 years old) had a cleaning and 10 teeth removed. He had 9 removed last year! Kona just had a cleaning, no teeth removed. Both dogs barely noticed a thing once they got their land legs back. Jack ate soft food for a few days before returning to his kibble. He does not seem to miss his teeth at all. We give them Entadent chews once in a while. Kona eats his, Jack just gums it.


Burke is 5 YO. So I don't have to feel too guilty about his losing teeth?  I got a vinyl finger brush recently that fits my finger. Will give it a try when I get the vet's OK. Used a brush before which Burke didn't care for. I've always dampened Burke's chow with chicken broth. A little wetter for a few weeks. He goes back to vet for a quick check on July 26.

Two big vet bills -- last month for annual check-up, vaccinations, etc. and this month the teeth. Enough! But Burke is worth it.


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## MamaProfCrash

We use regular treats and some rawhide treats for the dogs. They love their antlers and bones. Our Vet has said that they are fine. I suspect that different dogs will have different reactions to toys and bones and chews. We don't brush their teeth. So far they have not had to have any dental work and they are both 6, Caya is 6 months older then Cooper. That will probably change as they get older but so far so good. 

My 3 year old human child ended up having to be sedated in order to have three molars filled and the rest of his teeth treated because he had soft spots forming already. He brushes his teeth twice a day and the dentists (two different ones) report no food debris or any sign of problems along those lines. He happens to have a medical issue that leads to soft enamel and his teeth have deep pits (like his mothers) so he is more susceptible to cavities. He did not have cavities yet but was already on the way there. The treatment was recommended because the molars do not fall out until 11 or12 and he needs them to eat. 

So the dogs teeth are fine with little human intervention, the little humans teeth are not with a good deal of human intervention. Sometimes a mammal ends up with bad teeth. I wouldn't feel too bad about Burke. You are attentive, loving owner whose dog has teeth problems that you probably could not have prevented. I don't feel bad about my little mans teeth woos, we fixed them (although I was worried that day) and he is just fine and dandy now.


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## Amyshojai

Just like human teeth, being prone to dental issues is influenced by heredity. Preventive care can help, of course. There also are some products you can put in the dog's drinking water that will help, and there are diets that are specially designed to help prevent calculus and tartar build up. Look for the VOHC "seal of approval" on treats and food that's met the Veterinary Oral Health Council tests. See http://www.vohc.org/


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## Sandpiper

Amyshojai said:


> Just like human teeth, being prone to dental issues is influenced by heredity. Preventive care can help, of course. There also are some products you can put in the dog's drinking water that will help, and there are diets that are specially designed to help prevent calculus and tartar build up. Look for the VOHC "seal of approval" on treats and food that's met the Veterinary Oral Health Council tests. See http://www.vohc.org/


My vet said look for VOHC recommendations. One of Burke's canines is chipped slightly. Maybe that's why she says nothing hard. Otherwise I don't know why. I should have / will ask. Water additives do virtually nothing. There is one my vet said could try. App. $55 for a cup of it!  I don't think so. It's not even easily available. Amazon.


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## Sandpiper

I have always used Frontline Plus Flea & Tick on Burke.  Was asking breeder about chow today, she brought up Frontline.  She does NOT recommend / like any chemical repellants.  She has always used brewer's yeast and garlic tabs.  I'd never heard about them before.  Any comments, recommendations, suggestions?


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## Amyshojai

Brewer's yeast and garlic tabs both have vitamins that "may" help improve a dog's general health. They do NOT have flea protective abilities, despite anecdotal arguments to the contrary. Just like people and mosquitoes (some folks are pestered to death while other people walk into a swarm without a single bite) different dogs are more/less attractive to fleas. So...if you have a dog that isn't "bothered" much by fleas, giving supplements that boost general health might seem to be protective. If you have a dog that fleas love...or the dog suffers from flea allergic dermatitis and only one bite sets off incessant itching...it's doubtful brewer's yeast and garlic tabs would do much to help.

Incidentally, products like Frontline are designed to affect insects, not mammals, and are far safer than the "old time" chemicals that indeed, were dangerous to pets. I generally recommend folks check with a vet in their own region because the buggy incidence/resistance also varies across the country. What works for me in Texas might not work elsewhere. *shrug*


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## Sandpiper

I've always used Frontline on Burke. Never noticed fleas. Other than using a flea comb, how would you know if ....? Burke doesn't scratch / itch much at all. (I vaguely remember Spot, the beagle in my signature, getting fleas once. Don't remember how we discovered them. Don't remember what we did about 'em.) I think I'll continue with the Frontline and keep my mouth shut about it with the breeder.

Also the breeder doesn't recommend Frontline due to Burke's idiopathic seizures. New Nextguard flea & tick tabs aren't recommended for dogs with history of seizures, but I've never heard anything about that with regards to Frontline.

She's not into any vaccinations either except required Rabies. Her 3 - 4 Border Terriers don't go to any daycare or kennel, so not concerned about Bordetella vaccination. Burke gets that as Bellyrub Klub requires it. My vet recommends Lepto in case of contact with wild animals, possibly their urine in water, etc. Yeah, that is possible. We have wild critters around here. I think it was Burke's first or second summer, he got a _squirrel in his mouth_! (Must have been dead, but it wasn't roadkill.) You never know?! So, yes to Lepto.

The yeast and garlic tabs are supposed to help with coat condition? I've been adding a little olive oil to Burke's supper to help with that. I consume A LOT of olive oil myself.


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## metal134

*DrDLN* (dr.s.dhillon) said:


> I always wonder why more and more people are counting on animal love more than human love. Is that the direction modern society is heading to.... I still like to count on human love.
> 
> Sorry for this odd post. Wish you tons of love...


I'm only 34, so I don't have experience that goes WAY back, but I can say that it's no different now than it's ever been in my time on this Earth.


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## kdiem

Sandpiper said:


> I've always used Frontline on Burke.
> [Snip Snip]
> 
> She's not into any vaccinations either except required Rabies. Her 3 - 4 Border Terriers don't go to any daycare or kennel, so not concerned about Bordetella vaccination. Burke gets that as Bellyrub Klub requires it. My vet recommends Lepto in case of contact with wild animals, possibly their urine in water, etc. Yeah, that is possible. We have wild critters around here. I think it was Burke's first or second summer, he got a _squirrel in his mouth_! (Must have been dead, but it wasn't roadkill.) You never know?! So, yes to Lepto.
> [Snip Snip]


My personal experience with Frontline Plus has been good. My mom used it on her epileptic dog (Bouvier des Flandres) for years with no ill effects. I'd strongly suggest keeping the dog on Frontline.

What's your vet say about that vaccine schedule? You might consider adding the distemper and parvo vaccines (unless your vet recommends otherwise) to your vaccine list. Generally those are high efficiency vaccines with low incidence of side effects. Wild animals can pass along distemper and you mentioned some exposure to those, and parvo's death rate in puppies is like 80% - older dogs have a better survival rate, but still! Lepto is good when it works, but I'd consider it less important than distemper...

Caveat: Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt and your snack of choice. *I'm not a vet or vet tech*, but I did work animal rescue for a while, and lack of vaccinations ... well, it led to some very sad days.


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## Sandpiper

Forgot about that one -- Burke gets DHPP 3 yr vaccination also. I wonder if that was a standard vaccination in the late '50s - early '60s. Beagle in my signature almost died from IIRC something Dr. Burke said was comparable to hepatitis in humans. Dr. Burke pulled him through. And so 50 years later my current dog is named for Dr. Walter Burke, DVM who I knew in his 30s.


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## kdiem

Glad to hear Burke gets his DHPP too!   Proper vaccination (and food) is so important.

And what a lovely reason for a name.


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## Sandpiper

Can dogs get dizzy? I got a Simply Fit board (as seen on Shark Tank  ) which *I* haven't truly used yet, but Burke has. Agility for him. For one thing -- it takes courage for him to get "on board". The board rocks, wobbles, and spins as he's trying to get on. He's gotten brave. Doesn't take him long now. Once he's sitting on it ("stay"), I can spin it. Can dogs get dizzy?


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## Amyshojai

Sandpiper said:


> Can dogs get dizzy? I got a Simply Fit board (as seen on Shark Tank  ) which *I* haven't truly used yet, but Burke has. Agility for him. For one thing -- it takes courage for him to get "on board". The board rocks, wobbles, and spins as he's trying to get on. He's gotten brave. Doesn't take him long now. Once he's sitting on it ("stay"), I can spin it. Can dogs get dizzy?


Yes. They have similar structures in the ear as do people, which moderate balance.


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## Lee44

I thought that you would like this story, Punkin, my 5 year old chihuahua girl, gets very excited when food is at issue (as is likely true with most dogs), however, I have never seen her quite as excited as she is when I give her a *DentaLife* chew, once a week. (Sandpiper: maybe this would help Burke, it is firm, but flexible, specifically made for cleaning teeth). First she stares at me, as though I am going to take it away, then she spins in place for about five or six twirls, then she picks up the chew and runs around the house looking for the perfect hiding place.

She conducts this search for about 20-30 minutes, which apparently means there are no acceptable hiding places in my residence worthy of such a trophy as this chew. I like it because she gets some quality exercise. When she finally finds a place for it, she leaves it there, for perhaps 5 minutes or so. Once this process is complete, she moves it to her sacred eating spot and enjoys it for as long as it lasts. It is a Sunday ritual.

I love watching this happen every week, it is so cute to see.


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## yoshiyoshi

Sandpiper said:


> Can dogs get dizzy? I got a Simply Fit board (as seen on Shark Tank  ) which *I* haven't truly used yet, but Burke has. Agility for him. For one thing -- it takes courage for him to get "on board". The board rocks, wobbles, and spins as he's trying to get on. He's gotten brave. Doesn't take him long now. Once he's sitting on it ("stay"), I can spin it. Can dogs get dizzy?


Burke is the cutest! I really want to get a dog myself but at the moment don't have enough time to spend with a dog. But I think after New Year I'll definitely find a friend for myself.


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