# How to be a happy indie prawn



## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I've felt like writing a post like this for a long time. It is not about sales, nor is it a "get a mailing list and Bob's yer uncle" kind of post.

This post is about you, the writer, the person behind the books. If you are unhappy, frustrated and unhealthy within your writing, how can you expect your fiction to sing? How can you expect to find the energy you need to keep going?

It is so easy to come to the Kindleboards and become demoralised in 10 seconds flat. After reading posts where people complain "I used to sell 30 copies a day but now I'm only selling 10", you feel like crawling under the bed, because you'd be jumping for joy if you sold 10 copies of a book per month, or just 10 books full stop.

This is a post for those little prawns. Confession: I am a little indie prawn. Hear me roar. I am astonished that I've managed to sell more than 100 copies a month for 15 months straight, but I'm not much bigger than that. Coffee-and-donut money is very close to my past.

*Definitions*
Russell Blake so famously said: _Most. Books. Don't. Sell._
I actually dislike this statement. It is 100% true that most books won't make any bestseller lists. They don't need to. There are legions of writers doing quite well (and meeting their own goals, including paying a living wage) without ever having had any books in any bestseller lists.
My books sell. They just don't sell enough to pay my bills, but they sell a heck of a lot better than they did in tradepub. So, if your books sell enough to buy you a cup of coffee, they sell, and go and celebrate your damn coffee!

*Attitude*
If you need money desperately, get a job. Alternatively, manage your despair or channel it into something positive, because despair is like that woman on the train wearing far too much perfume: no one wants to sit next to her. If you need to whinge, don't make a habit of doing it in places where potential readers can see it. Don't continuously whinge in public, like Twitter, or your blog or Facebook.

*Expectations, and the managing thereof*
The only thing that's a dead-set certainty is that brown bar at KDP at the start of the month, or the zeroes on other sites.
Whether you've sold 10 or 10,000 the previous month, there is no guarantee that the next month will bring similar results. There is no steady path climbing slowly upwards. No one owes you a living.
So, if you go through life expecting that brown bar to last forever, you'll feel good when you get a sale. Feeling good is paramount.

*Ignore the Joneses*
Sales are funny. Once you get used to a certain level, it's never enough. The other funny thing is that no matter how much you sell, someone else will always sell more. 
You are not someone else. You don't write their books. So simply say "Congrats!" and move on. No need to dwell on other people's lucky breaks.

*Build a brand and your own readership*
Ads can give you short-term shots in the arm, but you should be working at creating a loyal fan base who are interested in hanging out with you and reading your brand of fiction. Work on that brand. Amazon is probably not a very good place for doing this. You should "own" your brand by directing people to your Facebook page or author site or some other place that is yours, where you talk about your fiction, waterskiing or Greek pottery, or whatever is part of your brand. Study the brands of authors you admire. Try to describe to yourself in one sentence what is unique about you and your fiction. You public persona is the brand and accumulating readers around that is a slow process, so is building a coherent library of books.

*Genre-hopping?*
If you feel you have to write a certain genre to get sales, you're setting yourself up for disaster. Yes, it's true that Romance sells well, but if you're like me and don't read Romance, stay away from it. I'm stuck in the dungeon of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and I'm determined to stay there, because dammit, that's what I like to read and write, sales be damned. In order to remain happy, you've got to stay true to your passion. There is nothing wrong with trying other genres or subgenres, but if you're doing so only in the hope of getting more sales, you're doing it wrong.

*Price*
If you're only going to sell a handful of books per month, you may as well sell them for the full whack. Especially if you're writing genre fiction, your competition is not other indies, it's tradepub books. So if you price just a bit under tradepub ebooks, you get two advantages:
1.	You'll look more like a tradepub author (presuming your book is up to scratch)
2.	You have a decent amount of room to move if you want to do a promotion
If your book is going to sit at below 500K in the rankings, it'll look a lot better priced at $6.99 than at 99c.
As another bonus, if you sell a copy, you get $4.50 and there's your cup of coffee! I believe in some countries you can even get a donut with your coffee for that amount.

Coffee and donuts make a writer happy.
There is no shame in coffee and donuts.
They are YOUR coffee and donuts. Be proud of them.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Like button


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm trying to buy this book and it's not working

help


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Patty,

This is perfect. Thanks.

Sincerely,
A Prawn.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

Great post, Patty. Liked, +1 and all that.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> If your book is going to sit at below 500K in the rankings, it'll look a lot better priced at $6.99 than at 99c.
> As another bonus, if you sell a copy, you get $4.50 and there's your cup of coffee! I believe in some countries you can even get a donut with your coffee for that amount.


I really like this coffee view. Even though I don't drink coffee, I do buy coffee for others. I guess I'm a happy indie prawn too, unhatched.









http://www.pinterest.com/pin/353884483190973707/


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I give you karma!


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## Nicole5102 (Mar 12, 2012)

Loved it.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

very good post...except for the repeated references to that vile drink you are pushing


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## Lionel&#039;s Mom (Aug 22, 2013)

Beautiful post, thank you!!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

By all means, add your own tips for remaining happy and focused and stopping yourself sliding into that abyss of despair.


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## J.J. Thompson (Aug 10, 2013)

Beauty. Well done!


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

This is now my favorite post on Kindleboards and you may be my new favorite person. _Thank you._


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## katherinef (Dec 13, 2012)

Awesome post, except for this part:



Patty Jansen said:


> If you need money desperately, get a job.












I can't get a job, so this writing thing will have to work out for me, but no, I don't complain about it to my readers.  I'll try to be a happy indie prawn.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Fantastic post!  It reminds me of an old saying a friend once told me:  "If you're not grateful for what you've got, you'll never be grateful for what you get."  Love it!


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

This was a great shot in the arm. I'm happy to be an indie prawn.   Gave me the smile I needed today.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

Hilariously enough, I started publishing my stuff because I couldn't get a job anywhere and desperately needed money before I defaulted on my student loans. Lucky me it's worked out.

The most important thing for me to think about though, is that it will always be a slow climb, especially in niche categories. I'll probably never write anything that's in, and that's because the stuff that's "in" doesn't match with what I write best. Thankfully I don't need as much as others to get by, so my comparable drops in the bucket are still good enough to pay my bills.


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## Bec (Aug 24, 2012)

Great and timely post. Thanks, Patty


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Great stuff.

If I could add my own it would be to think long term. And that's as in proper long term, not a couple of months?Aim _Aim to build a career._ Set yourself a game plan which is within your parameters to achieve and work towards it steadily while not worrying about how many you sold today or yesterday or last month.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> By all means, add your own tips for remaining happy and focused and stopping yourself sliding into that abyss of despair.


I always like to point out that if you suffer from anxiety / depression / alcoholism / cookie-holism / the crazies / the bends / schadenfreude, you need to TREAT THAT MALADY and not blame Amazon.

If you're having a tough time with publishing, step back and see if you're really just having a tough time being you.

Dunno about you prawns, but I'm my best friend and worst enemy. Put your arms around yourself as far as they'll go, given the cookie-holism, and give yourself a damn hug.


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## ecg52 (Apr 29, 2013)

I love it! Wonderful post! My last erotica book spent two weeks in the top 100 in westerns and I was in seventh heaven. Sadly, it's no longer there and instead of 60 to 80 sales a day, I'm down to 12 to 15. But I loved the ride and realize I can't stay in that position forever. Time to go to work on the next one. I'm not making a living at this yet, but most months I can pay my mortgage with my 'book money.' Even in the worst months I can at least pay the electric bill. I am a happy indie prawn!


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Wonderful post! Absolutely brilliant!

If I can buy extra chocolate with my self publishing money, that's all good.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I am pleased to add myself to the happy list of indies. I've never had a bestseller, but I am living on my income and writing full time. No doughnuts though  I'm on a diet. 32 years of shift work left me hugely obese, but I have lost half the bulk I need to and WILL get back to my correct weight around mid 2014 going nice and slow  using my treadmill desk to aid me 

Expectations... the only HOPE I have is to keep writing and stay happy. Wishes? I wish that each book I release does as well as the last I release... no backsliding please!


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

katherinef said:


> Awesome post, except for this part:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Charlie always wins. Everything. Always.


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

LIKE


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Well said. Not just advice for writers, but a life lesson as well. Whatever you do in life, give it your best and be proud of it.


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## Christian Price (Aug 3, 2012)

Great Post!


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## Jd488 (Oct 8, 2012)

Good post! Yes, I'm one of those happy prawns ranked over the 500k mark. Konrath said it best: This is a marathon, not a sprint.

Another key for all of us is to hone our craft and keep on writing. Refuse to give up!!  

It's time to shamelessly feed my coffee habit and write.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

> I'm stuck in the dungeon of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and I'm determined to stay there, because dammit, that's what I like to read and write, sales be damned.


I am right there with you... but I would not call it a dungeon... kind of like it down here. Maybe I am just antisocial though! 

Great post.


Dalya said:


> I always like to point out that if you suffer from anxiety / depression / alcoholism / cookie-holism / the crazies / the bends / schadenfreude, you need to TREAT THAT MALADY and not blame Amazon.


I am not a cookie-aholic! I can stop anytime... really I can.... but why would I?


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

One good news is that "prawn" sounds more sophisticated than "shrimp" 



VydorScope said:


> I am right there with you... but I would not call it a dungeon... kind of like it down here. Maybe I am just antisocial though!


LOL. I try not to get too comfortable. Prawns/shrimps are bottom-feeders, aren't they? At some point we'll have to rise to the occasion and swim to the surface.









http://www.pinterest.com/pin/353884483190999918/


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> If you feel you have to write a certain genre to get sales, you're setting yourself up for disaster. Yes, it's true that Romance sells well, but if you're like me and don't read Romance, stay away from it. I'm stuck in the dungeon of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and I'm determined to stay there, because dammit, that's what I like to read and write, sales be damned.


Yeah. I've thought about trying other things but they don't fit in my brain. I need to be able to invent things, even if they're not major trend-setters in the genre. 
I read all sorts of fiction but writing spec is what I think I need to do.


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## Lisa Scott (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you for taking the time to share these wonderful thoughts.


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## BlankPage (Sep 23, 2012)

_Comment removed due to VS TOS 24/9/2018_


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

Great post! I especially like the part about branding. Thanks for sharing!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I love this kind of encouragement. It takes time to gauge success as an indie. The most important thing is to not give up and to be happy with the process. As a sahm with student loan debt for my writing degree looming in the distance, I do have to make some money at this. 

I've tried a lot of things in my life. When I finally started publishing my writing, it was like everything clicked into place. Even though I'm still technically a prawn, although I can pay my cell phone bill with my income at this point, I've never been happier. The opportunity to write for a living, even if it takes time to get there, is a most fulfilling prospect. 

The best thing about this boards is that it gives us all a place to share and encourage each other, prawns and big fish alike.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Trinity Night said:


> I love this kind of encouragement. It takes time to gauge success as an indie. The most important thing is to not give up and to be happy with the process. As a sahm with student loan debt for my writing degree looming in the distance, I do have to make some money at this.
> 
> I've tried a lot of things in my life. When I finally started publishing my writing, it was like everything clicked into place. Even though I'm still technically a prawn, although I can pay my cell phone bill with my income at this point, I've never been happier. The opportunity to write for a living, even if it takes time to get there, is a most fulfilling prospect.
> 
> The best thing about this boards is that it gives us all a place to share and encourage each other, prawns and big fish alike.


I have got to say I love your covers!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

markecooper said:


> I have got to say I love your covers!


  Thanks! I made them myself.


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## Michael J. Scott (Sep 2, 2010)

Liked! 

Especially the coffee. Elixir of the gods that it is!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Conversely,  don't bubble. Nothing irritares me more than the bubbly Betty. And I'm not alone. Nothing wrong with perky writing, but I don't think readers wanna be smacked with cheerleader's ponytail every blog post.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

katherinef said:


> Awesome post, except for this part:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I sent this picture to several friends!


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

As many others have mentioned, great post, Patty. I feel very similar to you. I mentioned a few posts back that since I've taken the stress of sales off, I'm a much happier indie prawn. Yes, sales are only a trickle, but at least I'm enjoying writing and talking to people, rather than being constantly disappointed. You make some great and very poignant points. 

Geoff


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

See, this is why I write at Panera. Love their coffee and pastries, not to mention their breakfast souffles. If only it were tax deductible, I would be a very happy prawn.

For me, the key is, am I smiling when I'm writing? If the answer is yes, that's all that really matters.


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Exactly my feelings on writing. Thank you for this post.

BTW, I write better hopped up on coffee. Lol


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

EelKat said:


> Yep...me too! Panera loves me...I go through 3 fruit smoothies between meals...yep, meals, because I'll be there for 7 hours to a time...eat breakfast, type, down more smoothies, type, eat lunch, type, more smoothies... still typing...somebody will point out to me "We're closing now..." really? but I'm still typing...  Perhaps I'd have a better income if I typed elsewhere...maybe it's not I'm not making enough on my writing but I'm spending too much on food while type! LOL!


I see you are a very happy prawn. 

I try to limit myself to Thursday night dinner (granddaughter has a Christmas concert tonight, so no Panera), and breakfast once a week. When they build the one down the street from me, I'll probably be haunting it a lot more often.

Say, if I rented a table at Panera, would Uncle Sam let me take it as a tax deduction?


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2013)

Dear Patty:

Your post was like opening a window and letting fresh air in the place. And, you taught me a new word today, "whinge." Whine I know but whinge I didn't before your common-sense uplifting post. It's like my dear mother telling me what matters. Everything you posted is what my mother taught me from a young age. 

Here we read so much about sales being low or high or non-existent. I usually skip over those threads. Or the ones giving promotion advice. I'd like to read more about how various authors approach the craft of writing. And, while it may be true that most books don't sell, it's also true that most people live lives of quiet desperation. We see that here, too. To be truly grounded one must have faith in a higher love. In this Christmas season I know the joy of giving--for I have led our family to put all the cash we normally spend on more stupid sweaters and knickknacks into one check for a single mother in need. Limiting ourselves to a smallish present of $25 this gift will make possible happy children who otherwise would do without. And to make it personal, I am handing the check to the mother directly. I found through the church here. But I digress.

Sincerely, I thank you for shining your light here.


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## LarryNW (Sep 6, 2013)

GUILTY!

On at least a few charges. I've done my fair share of bitching and moaning about sales slumps and whatnot. BUt you're right - keep plugging away - and even if I have to have gluten free donuts - I still get the triple americano, and that has made all the difference.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

This is very much like what I said in my latest blog post. Quote:

'I discussed my writing recently with a friend. She told me I my writing should be more ‘commercial’, more ‘popular’ in order to sell. She said the ‘zeitgiest’ out there is what I have to plug into.

But no, I can’t. Because that’s not why I write. I feel I have to be true to myself and not glance sideways or upwards and then write to suit the market, whatever that is. I have to stay true to those who read my books and like them. If that is a very small circle, so be it. I write from my heart and my experiences. My observations of people and my surroundings. Little things fire off ideas. Landscapes, light, nature, sounds, smells, fun dialogue, great one-liners and quirky characters. All of that make up the fabric of my stories.

I’m happy if anyone likes to read what I write.'

Thank you, Patty.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the comments. I was busy last night so I didn't see them until just now.

This is another thing that I wanted to say: make sure you have a life and do other things.

I play in a band, and last night we had a rehearsal. We're playing at our local council's Christmas carols event, and some people had brought home-made biscuits to give to others. It was most pleasant. Most of these people know that I write and some have even bought  my books. As it so happens, the person who normally sits behind me is the co-owner of one of Australia's largest online booksellers (Booktopia--didn't know that before I joined the group). Useful connections are in places where you don't expect them to be.

This morning, I got an email that I've been accepted for a Book Blast ad. They've always refused me before. 

Onwards and upwards.

Promotion is not shouting in people's ear for five minutes, it is reminding people subtly that your books exist all the time, by having the books on your site, by doing the occasional guest blog, by taking part in events--online or in real life, or running the occasional ad.

And yay, I earned my coffee today.

Most of my later books are $6.99. This came about because of my tradepub book. The publisher sells their ebooks at $6.99 or more. Even though I kept my ebook rights, I decided I didn't want to dilute the publisher's brand by charging less. Because this publishing took its time (you know, tradepub and all that), I had several other books out in the meantime, and decided to charge $6.99 for them as well. I've been happy with the change.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Lots to learn from this. Thanks.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Great post, Patty. Thanks for posting!

RUe


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2013)

Thinking long-term and branding is definitely a strong take away from here. DWS and others have said over and over. It takes time. 

I sometimes get a bit impatient that things aren't moving faster, but I'm doing it fulltime and getting by so it's okay, I've (hopefully) got time. This is why I don't worry too much about fads, trends, and crazy marketing schemes. They're too temporary. Sure, writing a 50 shades knock-off might make you some cash now, but in the future, your catalogue will look like all the copy-cats of the time. I think if you're savvy to market your books to the best of their potential and write what you're really into, that will give you a better chance of longevity and legitimacy than trend-hopping to chase the cash. IMHO.


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Great post, Patty! 

I really like the comment about branding too. That's certainly what I hope to do once my son starts school full time in a couple of years - build up my blog and start a regular posting schedule.



KateDanley said:


> Fantastic post! It reminds me of an old saying a friend once told me: "If you're not grateful for what you've got, you'll never be grateful for what you get." Love it!


I love that saying!


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## Scribbler (Apr 27, 2012)

Crustaceans unite!


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

> You are not someone else. You don't write their books.


Awesome post! Most of the time I am a happy indie prawn, but I'm bookmarking this thread for the next time I get stuck in the comparison trap.


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

Fab post, Patty! Thanks for the great thoughts.


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## A. S. Warwick (Jan 14, 2011)

Good post.  I'm just a prawnlet, or whatever it I you call a baby prawn, but I'm happy with that.  Maybe next year I can graduate to full grown prawn


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## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

Nope.   Not gonna do it.   I'm gonna sulk and stomp my feet and hold my breath until I have a bestseller or I turn blue, whichever comes first. 

Wait.  Who am I kidding?  I'm too old and tired for all that drama.  I guess I'll be happy instead.


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## Bob Mayer (Feb 20, 2011)

Solid advice.  The people who succeed are the ones that work hard and are in it for the long haul.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

So, I've resisted posting in this thread for a bit, because my initial response to it was, I thought, sort of overly paranoid. I felt like it was a passive-aggressive attack at me personally, and I figured that was crazy-town kind of thinking, and I was really reaching.

Futhermore, I rather agreed with a lot of the sentiments expressed, and I didn't see how derailing the thread into my own issues would really help anyone, myself included.

However, I'm going to post now only because I think that the author-who-makes-it-but-then-falls-on-hard-times-and-loses-her-shit is a story that pretty much never gets any airtime, and I'm feeling like being the poster child. So...



Patty Jansen said:


> It is so easy to come to the Kindleboards and become demoralised in 10 seconds flat. After reading posts where people complain "I used to sell 30 copies a day but now I'm only selling 10", you feel like crawling under the bed, because you'd be jumping for joy if you sold 10 copies of a book per month, or just 10 books full stop.


It's never been my intention to demoralize anyone by talking about my dissatisfaction with my sales. However, I do understand what that feels like, and I sympathize. I spent many, many days and weeks reading this forum when my sales were absolute crap, and I totally got annoyed with people who were like, "Oh no! I'm going to sell 2000 books this month." Especially when I was making $13 every six months, you know? So, it's not like I haven't been there.

For me, selling 10 books a day is not good anymore. I'm working on my 34th novel. I've been actively trying to make a living at writing for nine years, and I've been actively self-publishing for five years. If you too have put this much effort into your career and are still only selling 10 books full stop, you are quite welcome to hate me. If not, then I ask that before you get annoyed with my "whingeing," you consider that maybe it's exponentially more painful the harder you've worked.



Patty Jansen said:


> *Attitude*
> If you need money desperately, get a job. Alternatively, manage your despair or channel it into something positive, because despair is like that woman on the train wearing far too much perfume: no one wants to sit next to her. If you need to whinge, don't make a habit of doing it in places where potential readers can see it. Don't continuously whinge in public, like Twitter, or your blog or Facebook.


Easy to say. Hard to do.

I don't actually understand why everyone's so terrified of despair. Of vulnerability. It's part of what makes us human. Now, I'm not sure about this, but I think that people are initially turned off by people they don't know being in a bad mood, but that they are actually generally much more tolerant of their friends and loved ones feeling bad. I suppose it depends on what kind of relationship you're trying to cultivate with your readers. Do you want to be a stranger or do you want to let them in? I've been letting them in lately. I have not noticed a mass exodus from my social networking sites or blog. Actually, people have been very sweet and supportive. I feel closer to my readers than I ever have, and I'm not ashamed of having had massive, public breakdowns. Not advocating it, per se. But I'm owning it.

As for the getting a job bit, yeah, I probably will. But when I do have to do that, it is going to be an emotional punch to the face. Because I always believed that once you got to quit your day job and start writing, that your life got better and easier, and that it was all smooth sailing from then on out. But it might not be. That's all I'm saying. Writing for a living is a bumpy ride with no safety net.

Maybe some people can ride that risk and see the definite possibility of failure and financial ruin on their horizons and put a smile on their faces and shrug it off. I can't. I feel stuff. I get scared. I get angry. I'm human. I have emotions.



Patty Jansen said:


> *Expectations, and the managing thereof*
> The only thing that's a dead-set certainty is that brown bar at KDP at the start of the month, or the zeroes on other sites.
> Whether you've sold 10 or 10,000 the previous month, there is no guarantee that the next month will bring similar results. There is no steady path climbing slowly upwards. No one owes you a living.
> So, if you go through life expecting that brown bar to last forever, you'll feel good when you get a sale. Feeling good is paramount.
> ...


This stuff I couldn't agree with more.

Well, except the bit about expecting the brown bar to last forever and being grateful to get one sale. I do understand the logic behind this kind of thinking, but I can't do it. I think it hurts too much to try to convince myself, "No, you idiot, you don't deserve anything. Be grateful for the crumbs." Frankly, I just don't believe that about myself. Not deep down.

I got into this writing gig because I had a huge, huge well of ambition. I want to do something big with my life. I want it badly. (I recognize that it may also lead to my downfall. I've read a lot of Shakespeare.) Anyway, I personally think that cultivating that big want is essential to motivating yourself as a writer.

Five days a week I write 8,000 words. The less money I make, the more words I write. That's because I believe in my soul of souls that I am going to make this work. I am going to not only make a living from writing, but a darned good one. I'm going to change my life. I'm going to the change the life of my significant other, and I am going to have everything I dream of.

I actually think this.

It's RIDICULOUS to think that. The odds are against me. No one owes me this. It makes no sense, especially when you consider the fact that it hasn't been easy to get to where I am.

But it's the dissatisfaction with the fact that I haven't reached my goal that keeps me going.

So... I don't know about happiness. I mean, you can be happy. Or you can be driven. I happen to be the driven kind of person. I'm not sure that it's a better way to be. But I just am that way. And part of being driven is being dissatisfied and being depressed and being annoyed. The difference is, I guess, my unhappiness doesn't cause me to give up. It just makes me want it more.


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## MGalloway (Jun 21, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> You are not someone else. You don't write their books. So simply say "Congrats!" and move on. No need to dwell on other people's lucky breaks.


Great point. I also think it has been difficult for some of us not to switch genres in order to jump start things.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Valerie, directed at you? Whatever gave you that idea? If this post is directed at anyone (which is it not, but presume it was for a moment), it would be Russell, since I actually mention his name. His advice is solid and you should listen to it, but people do become discouraged because they're doing all the things he says and they're still not selling millions.

Whatever problems you (general you, not you in particular) have with feeling unhappy, it has nothing to do with either your sales or other people. It is about how you (general you again) react to news. If you keep jumping around in response to external factors, you may end up feeling frustrated, because what will work for others will likely not work for you.

I go into the philosophy of getting paid jobs, but that would be off-topic. My main point there is that in general, for most people and yatida, it's way easier to make money working for da man and collecting regular pay at the end of every fortnight than it is to collect similar money from writing.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Patty Jansen said:


> Valerie, directed at you? Whatever gave you that idea?


yeah, it's easy to get self-conscious an paranoid about things that seem to strike home: but honestly, when I read this, every point reflects/applies to dozens and dozens of people here. It really did not read as if it were about one person.

(BTW, I remember reading about reactions of athletes to comments made by coaches in grad school. I think it was a study, but it might have just been an observation. Apparently if a coach says "Somebody here is not taking fitness seriously!" male athletes tend to think "he's not talking about me, he's talking about those other guys" and female athletes tend to think "OMG! He's talking about me, and only me, I'm so embarrassed!" This, of course was a very long time ago and probably isn't such a cultural difference these days. ... which is all a way of saying that Valerie's reaction is not that unusual. At least among the ladylike.)

Camille


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Bob Mayer said:


> Solid advice. The people who succeed are the ones that work hard and are in it for the long haul.


This needs to be taped to the wall in my office.


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## jeffaaronmiller (Jul 17, 2012)

Really helpful post. Thanks.

I think you really have to have a passion for writing. If you go into it primarily as a means to generate income, then there is a good chance that you are emotionally and mentally doomed. If you do it primarily because it is the fire that burns in your marrow, then disappointing sales will merely make things a bit gloomy.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> Awesome post! Most of the time I am a happy indie prawn, but I'm bookmarking this thread for the next time I get stuck in the comparison trap.


Doc, next time you're in the comparison trap, punch me up on AMZ and enjoy.

Nice post, Patty.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I am looking right now at a piece of printer paper scotch-taped to my big monitor above me, which says

There is nothing to learn here.

Meaning, checking my sales or reviews is not helpful. Writing the book is helpful. The other thing is a doomed attempt at self-soothing.

So, so easy to compare. You are so right. We can all compare. Unless you are actually Usain Bolt, you are never going to be the fastest man in the world. Even if you're Usain Bolt, you're only going to be the fastest man in the world for a brief moment in history. If you can't enjoy what you are doing . . . what is the point?

It is a journey. I am still trying to get there. And by that I mean, being able to enjoy myself at this moment, doing this thing that I love to do. Not getting to my external goal.

I think lots of us are driven. And driven is good! Driven works! But enjoyment works too.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Maybe the post is a bit aggressive (I still don't think it's passive-aggressive, though). I tend to be a fairly aggressive and blunt person. I tend to use two words rather than three, or four or five, because I feel if you use too many words, the message tends to get lost.

I'm sorry if anyone else feels like Valerie. It is a very general post, and the only person I had in mind when writing it was Russell, and he's off drinking tequila. It's not that my post is an antithesis to Russel's advice, which is very good advice, but I see it as complementary advice, specifically to keep us little prawns swimming.

If you want to write ace fiction, you have to find the mental space to do it.

Also, I fully get what people are saying about feeling something is directed at them while it is not. It is a reaction that's easy to have.

I've learned a lot from watching conversations on Twitter, the ultimate passive-aggressive medium. I think these rules apply to any post or comment describing people's behaviour:

(all general you-s here, no one in particular)

1. If you feel something is about you, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it isn't (even if only because if it really was, 99% of people would post it in a place where you can't see it). Moreover, I've come to the conclusion that I'm really not important enough for people to be gossiping about me online. This realisation is very liberating.
2. The people who are the subject of the comment will not notice, be too bone-headed to make the connection or will not care.

By this reasoning, if I notice something that gives me pause, I think "could it be about me?", followed by "Nah, I'm not important enough" and "I have the presence of mind and sensitivity to notice this and question it, therefore it is by definition not about me"


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts in the OP, Patty. You seem to have a really good sense of self and your goals. I wish I had that much confidence.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I did say that I was pretty sure that was crazy-town thinking, didn't I?

(If you're aware that you're paranoid, does that make your paranoia less bad? )



Patty Jansen said:


> Whatever problems you (general you, not you in particular) have with feeling unhappy, it has nothing to do with either your sales or other people. It is about how you (general you again) react to news. If you keep jumping around in response to external factors, you may end up feeling frustrated, because what will work for others will likely not work for you.


But for serious?

You don't mean this.

If, um, like my dad died, would you say, "You know, you can't let these external factors affect your happiness"?

Of course external factors affect mood. Come on.

When bad things happen, it is normal to feel bad about them. You could make a case that sharing your bad feelings in public forums is bad form, but to expect someone to not feel bad at all?

I HAVE to be misreading what you're saying.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Valerie, I don't really want to go into this discussion, but...

I think there is a call to keep this in perspective.

My post is about writing, and how to keep a positive outlook in writing. 

I'm talking about being affected by people talking sales figures or tactics or genres. I'm talking about not running after the latest bandwagon and about quietly beavering away rather than flip-flopping all over the place. It's about owning your sales and accepting that it's a peaks and troughs scenario, not a steady rising line.

If something really bad happens in your personal life, writing may help you, or maybe it doesn't, but this post isn't about that.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

CB Edwards said:


> Doc, next time you're in the comparison trap, punch me up on AMZ and enjoy.


Thanks, CB. But that won't help, no matter what your rankings may be.

The Comparison Trap is an insidious psychological problem. It only lets you focus on your deficiencies, never your successes. For example, I can't celebrate that my sales are better than yours, but I can definitely feel inferior about how your sales are better than mine.

I suppose the Comparison Trap is a side-effect of striving. We want to do better, and we look to our peers to help us attain our goals. We want role models, and we are wired to respect success. However, as soon as we commit to a goal, we start evaluating our progress. The longer it takes to see the results demonstrated by our peers, the worse the Comparison Trap becomes.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Patty made this post about writing, and I consider it excellent advice. File it under 'food for thought' and pull it out for a reread whenever you need it.

I do think it also contains some general life lessons. Someone close to me hated a job, quit, got another job, felt picked on, quit, got another job, felt unappreciated, got another job, currently is unhappy and feels trapped by the need for the weekly paycheck and company health care. I suspect this person has made up his/her mind to be unhappy at work. Unfortunately, that colors other segments of his/her life. How different would this person's life be if he/she just decided to be happy?

Yes, I know, you can't just decide to be happy. Nothing is that easy. What I'm saying is that attitude is all important. I am older than most of you. Many times over the years I've had to have a face-to-face talk with the mirror and move toward a major attitude adjustment. Sometimes we must force ourselves to be honest with ourselves! The results can be very satisfying.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Waxing serious for this one brief post: I know that I sell better then some (based on posts reporting sales here) and I know that I am way behind people like Elle Casey, Hugh Howey, Joe Noboy, and others. I am probably some where near the middle at a unscientific guess. Being that this is a extremely long tail market that means the difference between me and say the top 10% is massive, but the difference between me and say the bottom 1/3rd is probably tiny in comparison. I can see it easy to be depressed when you look at the top 10% and where you are and focus the gap between you and them. Elle Casey may have even sold TODAY more then I will for all of 2013. Instead of focus on that, I am _choosing_ to focus on how much fun I am having writing the stories, and interacting with my small fan base.

That is not to say I am not looking at marketing techniques and etc. I am. I have been involved in several long marketing threads here, and I have my first bonifide sale/promotion that will hit on Monday. It is just that I have a day job, so if I do not sell any books this month I can still take my son to McDonalds. I am writing as a hobby and I think that really helps.

If my books ever take off and I can make a living doing this, that would be cool - but that really changes the picture. Then sales dropping from one month to the next has much greater impact. I can see how if I was used to making say $2,000 USD a month from writing and Kobogate hits and now I am making $1200 that I could be upset and worried. The fact that many authors are making far less then that does not change that I just lost my mortgage payment.

It call comes down to perspective. I am having fun being a small fry and hope one day to have fun being a big fry... but until then, I party on and keep on keeping on as they say around here.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I would also add that, although there is a lot of great advice here, if you try that advice and it isn't working for you:

a. Don't give up
b. Don't keep trying what doesnt. work. There are no set rules for what will make your books a success. What works for some won't work for others.
c. Know your books. Sounds stupid, but some books are just not set up for the same steps to success that others are. You need to define your target audience and do what it takes to get them interested in your books. That may be vastly different for romance than it is for gay fiction. Thrillers might become successful doing "all the normal, right things" and YA might need something different to light it on fire. You need to experiment.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The swings up and down are scary, because of course there is no security in this business. And it's natural, I think (well, it's natural for me), when you have a down month (like, um, this one), to think, "Oh, no. That's it. Whatever fluke caused this is over." And, of course, you can do that no matter how many or few books you sell! Because the swings are always there. Maybe a few people's sales graph looks like a chart going up, up, up, but mine sure doesn't. 

My husband always says, "It doesn't matter how many books you are selling today vs. yesterday, this month vs. last month. What matters is where you are in a year, two years. This thing takes a while." And that idea helps. Thinking about sales sucks the joy out of this from me. I'm working on it. Somebody said up above here that the point of writing is--that you get to write books! That you love to write books! That's the point for me. It helps a lot if I remind myself of that and try to focus on that. As Patty says.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

I loved reading the original post and the entire thread. I feel like I've swung between two extremes in the past sixteen months, being completely unaware of marketing/publishing to trying to learn everything I can. Coming to the Kindleboards has helped me get back to my commitment to writing. It's been wonderful and what I needed. I'm so looking forward to 2014.  

Thank you, Patty for writing out such a wise post.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Happiness is cool and all, but, honestly, I got to where I am on the Good Ship Misery, with small stopovers on Happy Island.

Writing my first book that broke out was one of the darkest periods of my recent life. But you guys didn't hear about it, unlike my previous meltdowns, because once one is selling a few copies, one needs to shut the heck up, it seems.

It's okay to feel pain and discomfort over stuff, as long as it's driving a person forward rather than holding them back.

If comparing to other authors makes a person work harder and smarter, then go ahead and do it.

This is not the formula for a happy life.

I think the formula for a happy life and the formula for a successful self-publishing author are not exactly the same. Yes, there are overlaps. But I'm utterly miserable today, and that's just how it's going to be today, so I need to suck it up and move forward.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Dalya said:


> Happiness is cool and all, but, honestly, I got to where I am on the Good Ship Misery, with small stopovers on Happy Island.
> 
> Writing my first book that broke out was one of the darkest periods of my recent life. But you guys didn't hear about it, unlike my previous meltdowns, because once one is selling a few copies, one needs to shut the heck up, it seems.
> 
> ...


I agree with this totally. There's nothing wrong with writing what you want, how much you want, or when you want, and being happy whatever happens. But if you are looking to writing as an alternative to a career you hate, or as a career that allows flexibility, or to build financial security, then you're in a different boat. Welcome to the wonderful world of self-employment.

Most of the people on here who have sold a lot of books have worked themselves into the ground to do it. That's what it takes most of the time. I know I have worked long hours. I also feel plenty of negative feelings. If a review points out a mistake, or a negative about my book that I didn't notice, I get angry with myself. That helps not do it again. I am in a perpetual state of dissatisfaction with my sales, even when they are good. This doesn't mean I am a miserable person with an awful life. But it does mean I work on the assumption that I can always do better. If I do something, I want to do it well, and I am upset with myself when I don't do as well as I could have. Being upset with myself is a powerful tool.

I constantly watch my sales trends, planning ads and other promotions when I feel they are needed. This active management, this constant stressing over sales, has kept an entire series in the top 100 of its genre list for over a year. I can look back and see the points where they were starting to slide off, and I'd do a bookbub or hurry up a new release or knock book one down to 99 cents. The effort you put in pays off.

There's not a thing wrong with taking whatever approach you want, but you have to decide what your goals are, and if financial independence is one of them, you need to seriously consider how you're going to get there. It is very unlikely to just happen. There may be a lot of luck to success, but the big sellers around here have an astonishing amount in common with the way they do things...and that is not a coincidence.

Why should anyone expect financial success at writing to be so different from the business owner who mortgaged his house to start his company? Why would anyone expect to achieve such a level of sales without driving themselves hard and enduring a lot of difficulty?

Everyone likes praise, but if you want to achieve financial success, it takes a driving force and a willingness to make sacrifices. I hate to be blunt, and I know I'm going to get pounded for being honest and saying this, but a lot of what leads to financial success is negative. Being dissastified, telling yourself you can do better, achieve more.

As I said at the start, there is no reason anyone needs to sell a ton of books and make a lot of money, nor should they feel bad in any way because that's not what they want to do. But if you're in a job you hate or want to make enough so you family can live how you want or you want to cover tuition, retirement, etc., you deserve to hear what it will likely take if you want to change all that.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I get what you're saying. And I do work a lot. And it definitely helps that I came at this from a marketing career, and didn't have to learn all those things from scratch. Yes, I had to learn the business of marketing self-published books, but not marketing per se.

BUT--BUT--I may be the only one who feels this way--This job is not hard. I do not feel I work hard. Jobs where you're doing something you don't like that much, trying to explain to your CEO why a Facebook page (or a website!) would be a Good Idea--those are hard. This is by far--by far--the easiest, most fun job I have ever had. I love every part of it, the writing, the editing, the covers, the blurbs, the marketing, except stressing about sales (and bad reviews). Yes, I push myself. But I don't need to learn to push myself more. I need to learn to push myself less, to open up to the fun and enjoyment of what I do and accept it, and embrace it. 

(Well, partly because I write feel-good books. I can write just fine when I don't feel physically good--I wrote my most feel-good book when I was extremely ill--but I can't write when I'm emotionally on edge, except the dramatic scenes. My mood seeps into the book. Now, if you write thrillers or literary fiction or hard-boiled crime stories, you probably have a different take on this!)

All the above being said, I am a major Type A personality. Like I said--not a problem to sit down and work. I work more than I ever have (and I've always worked a lot), 7 days a week. But the difference is, I love it.


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

Jay Allan said:


> I agree with this totally. There's nothing wrong with writing what you want, how much you want, or when you want, and being happy whatever happens. But if you are looking to writing as an alternative to a career you hate, or as a career that allows flexibility, or to build financial security, then you're in a different boat. Welcome to the wonderful world of self-employment.
> 
> Most of the people on here who have sold a lot of books have worked themselves into the ground to do it. That's what it takes most of the time. I know I have worked long hours. I also feel plenty of negative feelings. If a review points out a mistake, or a negative about my book that I didn't notice, I get angry with myself. That helps not do it again. I am in a perpetual state of dissatisfaction with my sales, even when they are good. This doesn't mean I am a miserable person with an awful life. But it does mean I work on the assumption that I can always do better. If I do something, I want to do it well, and I am upset with myself when I don't do as well as I could have. Being upset with myself is a powerful tool.
> 
> ...


I guess for me, acknowledging that it's very hard and requires a lot of work, doesn't make me unhappy. It kind of makes me dig in and ask, how can I write more? how can I write better? how can I be more effective with whatever marketing I do.

If my approach last year were a mural on a wall, last year, there wouldn't be one-a picture, or anything. 
If my approach this year were a mural on a wall, it would be one big sloppy mess, and not a pretty mess like Pollock 

For me, it's been a matter of the past 4-6 weeks of taking a deep breath, and comparing those two murals. What I keep hearing here, is that it always come backs to the writing. Those who write more of stories that readers love, seem to do the best at selling books at some point. And those who also sell the best, seem to have some sort of sensible strategy for marketing. This all makes sense to me.

It makes me happy to believe that I can work hard and have the hope to succeed, but that I don't have to rely on gimmicks or slimy sales tactics, I can keep writing as much as possible, and perhaps, be a bit more intelligent with my marketing.

I don't know, all that makes me very hopeful and happy

I'm also reading Write. Repeat. Publish. and this>>>>> "It's definitely for optimists-ideally people so forward-thinking that they're deluded into thinking things are awesome when everyone else sees them as hopeless."

I'm kind of like that, happy, deluded, willing to work hard


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Jay Allan said:


> ...
> Everyone likes praise, but if you want to achieve financial success, it takes a driving force and a willingness to make sacrifices. I hate to be blunt, and I know I'm going to get pounded for being honest and saying this, but a lot of what leads to financial success is negative. Being dissastified, telling yourself you can do better, achieve more.
> 
> As I said at the start, there is no reason anyone needs to sell a ton of books and make a lot of money, nor should they feel bad in any way because that's not what they want to do. But if you're in a job you hate or want to make enough so you family can live how you want or you want to cover tuition, retirement, etc., you deserve to hear what it will likely take if you want to change all that.


Great post, Jay! And now, I will respond to the anticipated common objections to this post ...

"But I don't want to be America's Next Top Indie, I just want enough extra income for a few goodies."

Sadly, there is not a big stable mid-list for indie authors. If you make $20k/year, it's likely on average, with some months wildly up or down. The computers do what they do, and that's concentrate success. Technology and the control of it is the new Land. What computers and algorithms have done to the evaporating middle class, they'll do to the mid-list authors. Everything goes to the top and only dribbles down.

"But I don't even want money! I just want people to read my work."

They won't read it unless they buy it first. If you want regular readers and a community, blogging is a much better choice.

... all that being said, I have had a few moments of happiness over the last two hours. Today might not be so bad after all. I did cry once, but it was brief and kinda happy.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Dalya said:


> *America's Next Top Indie*


I would watch this!


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## Doril (Nov 2, 2013)

Great post. Thanks so much.


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## Cheryl Douglas (Dec 7, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> *Ignore the Joneses*
> Sales are funny. Once you get used to a certain level, it's never enough. The other funny thing is that no matter how much you sell, someone else will always sell more. You are not someone else. You don't write their books. So simply say "Congrats!" and move on. No need to dwell on other people's lucky breaks.


I think this is my favorite part. Loved it!


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)




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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Q: I don't want to be an indie prawn anymore. I want to rise above the bottom of the ocean. How do I do that?
A: Write more books!

Q: But writing more books doesn't always mean selling more books. What to do?
A: Write more books!

Q: It's hard being a prawn. I mean, what can possibly be harder than being an indie prawn?!
A: Writing more books!


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## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

JanThompson said:


> Q: I don't want to be an indie prawn anymore. I want to rise above the bottom of the ocean. How do I do that?
> A: Write more books!
> 
> Q: But writing more books doesn't always mean selling more books. What to do?
> ...


LOL okay, you won me over there.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> A: Write more books!


Write books + have plan + recalibrate plans + research + experiment + + fail and get back up + track results = Prawn 2.0


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Dalya said:


> Write books + have plan + recalibrate plans + research + experiment + + fail and get back up + track results = Prawn 2.0


I LIKE THAT! Prawn 2.0!

We need a tee-shirt.


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

A good post. Thanks for sharing


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## 48306 (Jul 6, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> *Ignore the Joneses*
> *Sales are funny. Once you get used to a certain level, it's never enough*. The other funny thing is that no matter how much you sell, someone else will always sell more.
> You are not someone else. You don't write their books. So simply say "Congrats!" and move on. No need to dwell on other people's lucky breaks.


THIS. So this. I think it's so easy to forget to celebrate each new goal reached, because by time you do reach it, it's often kind of shrugged off and you're looking for the NEXT level up. While I think that it's a good/positive way to be, always looking forward and setting new additional goals to reach, it can also be exhausting. Reminding ourselves of what we achieved against our _*own*_ goals and not anyone else's is something authors need to make a conscious effort to do for our own mental well being.


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Great OP. My thought though is why are prawns happy? I've never seen one smile! Why not be happy instead like a cat? I know my cats are happy after all - they're making my life difficult, what more proof do I need!

However, someone back in this thread said you can't choose to be happy. That's not true. You can choose to be happy. It's not easy naturally enough. Very little that's worth doing is easy. And of course the brown smelly stuff keeps happening (usually when my cats are involved!) But having said that a lot of happiness and sadness is down to how you interpret the world.

So if I sell five hundred books a month I can choose to be happy that it's more than five and I can get some cake to go with my coffee. Or I can choose to be sad because it's less than five thousand and its going to take forever to pay off the mortgage. In the end though its the same number, the same success or lack of success. The only thing that's changed is how you choose to view it.

Me - I'm happy with my coffee and cake - (coffee cake of course!)

Cheers, Greg.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

P.T. Michelle said:


> THIS. So this. I think it's so easy to forget to celebrate each new goal reached, because by time you do reach it, it's often kind of shrugged off and you're looking for the NEXT level up. While I think that it's a good/positive way to be, always looking forward and setting new additional goals to reach, it can also be exhausting. Reminding ourselves of what we achieved against our _*own*_ goals and not anyone else's is something authors need to make a conscious effort to do for our own mental well being.


That's my biggest thing. I just now started experiencing success. But there are so many writers in my category who come roaring out of the gates, hitting the top 100 in their first try, I still feel like a loser compared to them. I should be happy with what I have done, but because it isn't as good as others, I'm not as happy as I can be.

I need to have a more positive mindset for my own successes.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Great OP. My thought though is why are prawns happy? I've never seen one smile!


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## psychotick (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi,

Awesome! I wonder however if that prawn has yet realised he's for the barbie? Maybe he has mad prawn disease!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm really interested in the direction this thread is going, because I suspect there's a clash of personality types going on, and it's something I've noticed before in the writing community but have never been able to pin down. So bear with me while I try to put words to this.

A lot of writers talk about being driven and being dissatisfied as the same thing. The dissatisfaction is what motivates them. J.A. Konrath used to talk about this a lot (he might still, I don't know - I stopped reading his blog back before he went indie because his posts always left me depressed and discouraged). Some of you in this thread seem to be saying something similar. It's a drive to succeed, to achieve more and get to a higher level, and it necessitates a certain amount of unhappiness, because if you're satisfied with where you are then there's no drive to move up. For these writers, happiness and contentment equal complacency, which equals stagnation.

Then there are writers like me. I would describe myself as driven, certainly. Writing isn't a hobby or a side project for me - it's the focus of my life, and I'm willing to push myself _hard _in order to tell the stories I want to tell. But if I were to focus hard on aiming for more and more success, if I were to always see where I am as not good enough - if I were to cultivate the sort of dissatisfaction that writers like Konrath thrive on - the stress and pressure would not only leave me miserable, it would leach energy away from my writing. Pressure doesn't motivate me to write - quite the opposite. In order to write effectively, I need to shut out all of that as much as possible and focus inward, on the stories themselves and why I chose to write them. It's something I've been struggling with a lot this past year, to the point where I've actually had to take a step back from the indie community because the push toward success was leaving me more and more stressed and pressured, and thus less happy and less effective as a writer.

(And if that kind of stress and pressure really is necessary for success as a writer, then I will shrug and walk away from the possibility of success, because if writing makes me miserable then I may as well not be writing at all.)

I suspect Patty's post was directed toward the second type of writers, and those who are perplexed by it may be of the first type. But let me know if I'm coming at this completely wrong. (I'm not quite satisfied with my explanation here, but I've been mulling on this for a couple of days and this is the best I've been able to come up with.)


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2013)

JanThompson said:


> Q: I don't want to be an indie prawn anymore. I want to rise above the bottom of the ocean. How do I do that?
> A: Write more books!
> 
> Q: But writing more books doesn't always mean selling more books. What to do?
> ...


Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I believe outside of writing more books, giving yourself a chance at more sales, there is NOTHING you can do to affect or control your sales long term besides what the books consist of. That's why I give very little effort to what's called "promoting" any longer. If you take all the evidence and experience here and distill it down, the conclusion I make is that sales are rather random. At least until the sheep follow other sheep who bleat about your work.


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## Michael Sanrosia (May 24, 2013)

Love this post  You took the words right out of my brain.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Zoe Cannon said:


> I'm really interested in the direction this thread is going, because I suspect there's a clash of personality types going on, and it's something I've noticed before in the writing community but have never been able to pin down.


I don't see a clash in personality types but I do see a variety of personality types and that's perfectly OK.

For me, I see that I'm an indie prawn (better than an indie shrimp -- at least prawns are expensive) but only for now. I see how I need to better my writing habits, increase my writing hours, stop stopping by KB every free minute LOL, and maybe try to be more ambitious than to work for a cup of Starbucks. (More, please!)

Like they said in school -- if you did your very, very best, and you still made a C, that is OK. You did your very, very best. If you don't do any work but you made a C, then maybe if you tried harder you could get a B or an A. So it's a motivating thread to rise above the prawn-ness of it all.









http://www.pinterest.com/pin/353884483191020652/


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Willieboo said:


> Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I believe outside of writing more books, giving yourself a chance at more sales, there is NOTHING you can do to affect or control your sales long term besides what the books consist of. That's why I give very little effort to what's called "promoting" any longer. If you take all the evidence and experience here and distill it down, the conclusion I make is that sales are rather random. At least until the sheep follow other sheep who bleat about your work.


Well, I have a nonfic coming out next year and I'm actually going to do that. I am going to do as little promotion as possible. I am testing the theory that you don't need to be famous to sell a nonfic. I will report the results of my experiment on KB/WC. Unfortunately I am taking a very big risk because I am spending out of pocket for the cost of producing the book. My business partner will not be happy to see this writer just going qué será será. I may have to go work at the bookstore to break even on the cover and editing LOL.

As for the random theory, I do differ a bit. When sheep tell other sheep about your work, it's no longer random. It means there's some good feed out there. I hope to provide that feed in the form of palatable books to read. But it also depends on the sheep's meal preferences. I understand they are all vegetarian. I might put some meat in my pies, so I have to go find a new audience, possibly. No wolves need apply LOL. But I don't see the randomness there. I see supply-and-demand theory at work. It's all business IMO.

Edited: After reading Dalya's comments re: sheep, I see how it could be misconstrued. So here I am adding an addendum saying that I, too, am a sheep, a peer with readers since I'm a reader myself. I do listen to other sheep reviewers when they recommend or do not recommend said eBook feed. This way I don't have to "fix" the statement above. Hopefully.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Willieboo said:


> Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I believe outside of writing more books, giving yourself a chance at more sales, there is NOTHING you can do to affect or control your sales long term besides what the books consist of. That's why I give very little effort to what's called "promoting" any longer. If you take all the evidence and experience here and distill it down, the conclusion I make is that sales are rather random. At least until the sheep follow other sheep who bleat about your work.


The bulk of the "marketing" is done before I write a single word. I spend a long time evaluating potential projects, even asking for input from my readers.

That's the real secret to marketing, I think.

My current series was planned to be 4 books, but after #2, I shortened and put 3 and 4 together, because I thought it would make my readers happier. I spent a lot of time mulling over that decision, and I'm a decisive/impulsive person.

Of course, I still experiment, and thinking things through doesn't guarantee success!

p.s. a note about calling people "sheep" -- it's not a productive way to think. Every single damn one of us crowdsources our research. We wait until 3 people tell us a new TV series is worth watching. It's not a herd, it's a crowd of people who are all completely overwhelmed with more information than they can ever possibly filter, must less consume. So, yes, people crowdsource to find out what's worthwhile. Work on trying to be worthy of their time.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Yeah. As it turns out, crowds are pretty wise. You throw enough ants together, and their collective behavior looks so logical we tell ourselves an intelligent queen is directing it.

Funny, you put a few billion binary neurons together, and the same thing happens.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Yeah. As it turns out, crowds are pretty wise. You throw enough ants together, and their collective behavior looks so logical we tell ourselves an intelligent queen is directing it.
> 
> Funny, you put a few billion binary neurons together, and the same thing happens.


Speak for yourself! I am a mass of rodents in a trench coat.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

Willieboo said:


> Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I believe outside of writing more books, giving yourself a chance at more sales, there is NOTHING you can do to affect or control your sales long term besides what the books consist of. That's why I give very little effort to what's called "promoting" any longer. If you take all the evidence and experience here and distill it down, the conclusion I make is that sales are rather random. At least until the sheep follow other sheep who bleat about your work.


It's not marketing in the sense of just advertising. It's choosing projects, creating covers and descriptions that work, and changing ones that dont. It's finding the time in your day to write more because you've determined you need a release out there. Its doing that writing when you'd rather be doing something else. It's consciously managing your rankings to the best of your ability, timing the use of what pricing and advertising options you have.

It's reading reviews with a sharp eye, trying to get a feel for what readers like and what they don't. It's spending the time to research on places like KB, not in the "feel good" threads but trolling for what has worked for others.

It's learning how to understand and apply all of this to your own work rather than trying to copy an exact instruction set as if there was some fixed recipe for success that requires only imitation and no critical thought.

I see posts all the time to the effect of "is it worth the effort to go direct w Barnes and noble or is kobo worth the effort. Well, since each of those takes about as much time as cooking a bag of microwave popcorn, the question shows either a tremendous lack of research or an astonishing unwillingness to make a very minor effort. Why would you even ask something lie that? Why wouldn't you just do it and see how it works for you?

There is obviously luck involved in selling books. I give people like Konrath credit for acknowledging that. But the notion that it is all luck is nonsense. With occasional exception, there is a massive correlation between effort and success.

If your books aren't selling, have you:

1. Changed covers/blurbs
2. Read good and bad reviews with an eye toward getting in the reader's head?
3. Do you have a quality website? A mailing list? Well put together promotional front and back matter?
4. Do you test different things all the time. Things like Dalya's recent thread on putting back matter promos ON the last page of text because people don't page any farther? Do you analyze your own books this way?
5. Do you know what ranking you need to hit your sub-genre top 100? The top 20?

There are so many things that go into a well executed self-publishing effort, it's hard to list them all.

Learn everything you can, and apply it to your efforts. Don't look all over these boards for a fish. Use them to learn HOW to fish.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> Speak for yourself! I am a mass of rodents in a trench coat.


Well, that would explain why I've always liked you. I'm a collective of cats concerned primarily with what might happen if we can get inside that new box over there. Our chief analysts believe it's filled with bells and toys.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

Edward W. Robertson said:


> Yeah. As it turns out, crowds are pretty wise.


Crowds also buy mood rings and pet rocks. I wouldn't necessarily agree about the 'wisdom' bit. But easily distracted by shiny newness? Yes.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

Yeah, but in their defense, shiny newness is pretty sweet.

I guess I would say this: if you threw me in the trunk of a car and told me I had to make a decision based on flipping a coin or following the crowd, I would follow the crowd.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Well, regardless of whether you outsource decisions, or follow a crowd, or look deep inside yourself, or flip a coin....

What you choose to write is definitely the first and most important marketing decision you make.

And that goes far beyond following your heart or following the crowd.  It's about understanding what you're creating and realizing that it's going to stand on it's own sometime.  It's going to be, no matter what else you do, the main thing that sells itself.

And that's true whether you are a prawn or a jaguar.

Camille


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Well, regardless of whether you outsource decisions, or follow a crowd, or look deep inside yourself, or flip a coin....
> 
> What you choose to write is definitely the first and most important marketing decision you make.
> 
> ...


Yes! And it's important to think carefully about the bed you make for yourself. If you write one thing and it does well, that's your new life.

I like my current genre, but I have a wandering eye for other genres. I may need to indulge myself with a new pen name and some self-indulgent secret short stories, just as my hobby thing. I think it would be fun to write some stuff as a hobby.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with being driven. Many times, driven people succeed, but many times, they don't. Those who just flop in their beds and moan about their lack of success, definitely do not succeed.

Several months ago, someone on this board (sorry, I can't remember who you are) said, 

"Put your heart into your work and do your best to find an audience. That's all any of us can do and that's what we all should be doing."

I know that's an exact quote because I printed it out and it's hanging across from my desk (right next to my life-sized cutout of Han Solo). I'm going to put the picture of the smiling prawn right on top of the quote. 

All my life, I've been driven by ambition, but never felt that I really succeeded at anything. But if I do as the above quote says, I've succeeded in doing my best, and if I accept that I'm an Indie Prawn (which I have, thanks to Patty), I can be happy about it. 

Writing makes me happy, and if I'm smiling when I'm writing (which I usually am), then I've succeeded.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Avis Black said:


> Crowds also buy mood rings and pet rocks. I wouldn't necessarily agree about the 'wisdom' bit. But easily distracted by shiny newness? Yes.


lmao! Yeah, I remember my friends buying pet rocks. One actually turned out to be useful. Years later, this guy chucked his pet rock through the window of the girl who'd given it to him when she dumped him for his best friend. True story.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> Yes! And it's important to think carefully about the bed you make for yourself. If you write one thing and it does well, that's your new life.
> 
> I like my current genre, but I have a wandering eye for other genres. I may need to indulge myself with a new pen name and some self-indulgent secret short stories, just as my hobby thing. I think it would be fun to write some stuff as a hobby.


I think the thing to remember for the prawns is, what are your goals?

That one thing that does well? Not everybody likes it. There are large numbers of people out there who don't want what appears on best seller lists. They are hard to reach... and worse they all have different tastes. In many cases, each individual has highly varied tastes.

The prawns are very often highly successful in serving their audiences, they just aren't successful in making money.

And if it weren't for the prawns, we'd have one big overserved audience, and a whole lot of dissatisfied people who don't get served at all. (Which is what was going on for the past 20 years in traditional publishing - and especially in bookselling. Large rafts of people were only finding what they wanted thanks to used books.)

Camille


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> Yes! And it's important to think carefully about the bed you make for yourself. If you write one thing and it does well, that's your new life.


Yes, indeed. This is true of all entrepreneurship. When you set out to make a living doing something, you've created a job for yourself. While it's nicer to have a job you like than one you don't, some people don't enjoy the transition from hobby to vocation as much as they hoped.

I don't believe there is a universal magic formula for becoming a full-time writer and enjoying it. I like parts of this new job and dislike other parts. I've tried all kinds of tactics to make the experience better, but it all seems to come down to my attitude about the future: either I want to keep doing this or I don't. Everything else is noise factor. My main strategy is to minimize the things that I don't like and maximize the things I do. But what works for me is unlikely to be the same as what would work for anyone else. I've learned to pick and choose carefully from the excellent suggestions I've found here at KB.

Thanks again for this thread, Patty. It was thought-provoking and inspired some great discussion.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> My main strategy is to minimize the things that I don't like and maximize the things I do.


Got it. I'll cut out the editing and ramp up the drinking.


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Trinity Night said:


> Thanks! I made them myself.


I second that opinion. 

From another happy prawnster.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

daringnovelist said:


> That one thing that does well? Not everybody likes it. There are large numbers of people out there who don't want what appears on best seller lists. They are hard to reach... and worse they all have different tastes. In many cases, each individual has highly varied tastes.
> 
> The prawns are very often highly successful in serving their audiences, they just aren't successful in making money.
> 
> ...


_This._ As a reader whose tastes often fall outside the current trends, I'm very grateful for all my fellow prawns, because if everyone wrote what was selling the best, I would have nothing to read. As a writer, my aim is not to reach the largest number of readers, but to reach the readers who love the same things I do.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Zoe Cannon said:


> _This._ As a reader whose tastes often fall outside the current trends, I'm very grateful for all my fellow prawns, because if everyone wrote what was selling the best, I would have nothing to read. As a writer, my aim is not to reach the largest number of readers, but to reach the readers who love the same things I do.


Ditto. Nobody knows what will sell. If they did, no authors would be turned down over & over by trad publishers and then go on to indie success--and that's happened to lots of folks. And it wouldn't be true that 85-90% of trad published books fail to earn back their advance.

I wrote the book in my head because I wanted to read that kind of book and I was dissatisfied with my attempts to find it, and I thought it was a cool, romantic story. Nobody wanted it. Nobody thought it could sell. It did. I had no idea what I was doing. I hadn't read that much in my genre for years, though I knew the basic rules (and broke some others, turns out.) If I'd gone through and studied what was selling (and what publishers wanted to buy), I'd have written about medieval Scotland or billionaire BDSM, and my heart wouldn't have been in it, and I really, really doubt my book would have sold.

Helps that I have fairly mainstream tastes. But those ARE my tastes. I like football, beer, and reality TV. I like love stories. I write the way I do because I like books like that. The fact that some other people like them too is a bonus.

Nobody knows what books will turn out to be the ones lots of people want to read. Not agents, not publishers, and not the author herself. That's the x factor. You don't really know till you put it out there. So write what you want to write, present it the very best you can, figure out some ways to get it in front of eyeballs, and see if it hits. And then do that again, because maybe your sixth book hits. Maybe your tenth book. And if nothing else, you'll have written some cool stories and gotten better at what you do.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Willieboo said:


> Maybe I'm a contrarian, but I believe outside of writing more books, giving yourself a chance at more sales, there is NOTHING you can do to affect or control your sales long term besides what the books consist of. That's why I give very little effort to what's called "promoting" any longer. If you take all the evidence and experience here and distill it down, the conclusion I make is that sales are rather random. At least until the sheep follow other sheep who bleat about your work.


Sales are random? Yeah, that's called luck. Luck helps, for sure. But Luck isn't what drives sales.

Here's the problem with the want Luck to save me mentality - once you have a successful book - guess what? It eventually stops selling. Yes. Weird, I know. But it's true. And anyone who's had any level of moderate success can tell you that month two after your moderately successful book--with no new release and no signification promo plan--sucks. And month three makes you desperate enough to pound out another book as fast as you can and start Facebooking your a** off.

And even though I haven't released a book that sells (i.e. not a SF book) since October, last month was good and this month is not looking too shabby either. All because I had a marketing plan to get me through until January when the next big book comes out.

I just don't know what to say to you guys sometimes. I've been selling books online since 2008. I've had success both in fiction and nonfiction. I've done newsletters, Facebook, Twitter, street teams, giveaways etc. etc. etc. and all of it - ALL OF IT - works.

Maybe not all in the same ratio. Maybe some success is small at times. But NONE of it had zero results. (well I take that back - I bought a print ad for my nonfiction in a big magazine once - I have no way to know for sure, but I suspect that had zero results.)

Just keep going. Keep trying. Success can happen overnight due to luck, but most of the time it takes a long extended period of growth and development before you're ready to seize the lucky opportunity that comes your way.

THEN once you have that book - then you kick all this stuff into high gear and run. That's called opportunity - or Luck. Because mark my words - that book WILL stop selling. And if you're not actively participating in your business, the sale stop and the money dries up.


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## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

I disagree that no one knows what will sell.  No one knows for SURE a given book will sell, but that doesn't mean you can't control it to a great extent. 

If you read your reviews carefully and impassively...if you answer your readers' emails and interact with them, you will quickly get to know them...what they liked in your work, what they didn't. If you put in the considerable amount of effort and thought this takes, you will become more familiar with what your market wants and will buy. 

If you are new, and have no base, there are things you can do as well. Does your book appeal to a clean concise genre?  It is easier to market and appeal to an clearly identified group. Perhaps the confusing, squishy, genre-bender is a better bet for your fifth book unread of your first. Remember, your best marketing is amazon, and you want a title, cover, and description that will draw someone in on a cursory glance. You've got maybe half a second.  Make it scream, " this is a book you will like."

Can you ever be sure a book will sell?  No, probably not. Can you massively increase the probability? Absolutely. And learning that is part of the effort required to give this your best shot to become a lucrative career.


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## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

I also disagree that nobody knows what will sell. Look at the top 100 lists in the genre you like to write. You'll probably be able to pick out trends pretty easily. That's what readers are buying in that genre right now. With a smart marketing plan (it doesn't even have to be time-consuming or difficult; just smart), you know that you can sell books in that subgenre that you've just found.

If you're stubborn and prolific, you can sell things that aren't The Big Thing, too. I'm not writing in a popular subgenre right now, but a small audience =/= nonexistent audience, and through dumb persistence I've made my books sell. I'm not particularly talented or bright, so if I can brute-force sales on a less-popular subgenre, I'm pretty sure anyone can.

This is business, not magic.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Perhaps I should have said, nobody knows what will sell big. If they had, 38 agents & publishers would have said "yes" instead of "no" to me. Ditto for 100 or whatever it was for J.K. Rowling. (Not that I'm her  )

Of course you have to write a good book, present it well, and market it. But beyond that, it has to hit some sweet spot with people to sell big. That part is, I would argue, the x factor.

(I would also argue that "more of the same" is unlikely to get you there. I mean, following the trends. You may make a living at that; you're unlikely to make a great living. And obviously, there are exceptions. A knockoff of "Twilight" that was in turn knocked off, over & over & over, and has made a lot of authors a lot of money. But I wouldn't be happy writing that book, so back to the "happy" idea again!)


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> Perhaps I should have said, nobody knows what will sell big. If they had, 38 agents & publishers would have said "yes" instead of "no" to me. Ditto for 100 or whatever it was for J.K. Rowling. (Not that I'm her  )
> 
> Of course you have to write a good book, present it well, and market it. But beyond that, it has to hit some sweet spot with people to sell big. That part is, I would argue, the x factor.


This is what William Goldman meant by "Nobody Knows Anything." He was referring to the fact that every single "fact" folks in publishing and Hollywood know about blockbusters has been wrong as much as right.

However, even if we did know exactly what would sell, for sure, that is irrelevant to the idea of serving your audience. If your audience is small, then you won't sell as many books. You will not serve that audience by writing what more lucrative audiences want.

Camille


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## AutumnKQ (Jul 27, 2013)

This post made me happy (and inspired me to write a new post - Follow your bliss: You don't need anyone's approval http://www.autumnkalquist.com/follow-your-bliss/

But back to this thread... I actually think we indies have some awesome things going for us...

Here's my list:

The best things about running my own business(es):
For my non-fiction:
I write what I want to write about.
I don't have to pitch my idea to ANYONE.
I don't have to sell the rights to my words to someone else so they can grow *their* audience and brand with my knowledge. I'm not the goose laying her golden eggs for someone else. I keep them and reap the benefits. (Though I always have the option to try to sell those words.)
I research my topic, then I write about it. I provide value to people who want to know about the things I have expertise in.
I'm able to look for creative ways to monetize what I do. It's exciting. Sometimes profitable, sometimes not, but I get to help people and I love it.

For music and fiction:
I write the stories I want to write. I do not need an agent, editor, or publishing house to sanction what I'm writing.
I don't have to give over the rights to my work for a sum of money if I don't feel like it. I get to build my own brand (see above).
I don't have to audition for girl groups and producers and hawk my portfolio all over the place.

I think your greatest chance (not guarantee) of success comes from doing what only you can do- telling the stories only you can tell, making the music only you can make. Because that's what's unique about you. No one else was going to write Harry Potter, Twilight, Wool, Hunger Games, etc., the way those authors did. They put themselves into those books (whether you liked the stories or not.) I just finished a book by Donald Maas last night called Writing 21st Century Fiction and he pretty much echoed that sentiment.

In music, there have been plenty of manufactured acts who sing bubbly pop songs, but the breakout artists (especially now) seem to be those who make really good, interesting music and build up a fan base on their own. That's what you have to do in music these days and I think publishing is headed in the same direction. Labels and Publishers want proven talent.

I appreciate every single person who enjoys my songs or books, but I don't need anyone's go-ahead to "Follow my bliss" and do the things that make me happy. I can put them out there for others to enjoy, with no gatekeepers standing between me and my (potential) audience. It might be difficult, at times, to get noticed, but creative marketing can be part of the fun and the challenge.

So I think we have it pretty good and it's a truly exciting time to be a creative person.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

AutumnKQ said:


> I think your greatest chance (not guarantee) of success comes from doing what only you can do- telling the stories only you can tell, making the music only you can make. Because that's what's unique about you. No one else was going to write Harry Potter, Twilight, Wool, Hunger Games, etc., the way those authors did. They put themselves into those books (whether you liked the stories or not.)


You said this so much better than I did. That's it. That's what I was trying to say. Thank you!


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

AutumnKQ said:


> This post made me happy (and inspired me to write a new post - Follow your bliss: You don't need anyone's approval http://www.autumnkalquist.com/follow-your-bliss/
> 
> But back to this thread... I actually think we indies have some awesome things going for us...
> 
> ...


LIKE


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## heidi_g (Nov 14, 2013)

Jay Allan said:


> It's not marketing in the sense of just advertising. It's choosing projects, creating covers and descriptions that work, and changing ones that dont. It's finding the time in your day to write more because you've determined you need a release out there. Its doing that writing when you'd rather be doing something else. It's consciously managing your rankings to the best of your ability, timing the use of what pricing and advertising options you have.
> 
> It's reading reviews with a sharp eye, trying to get a feel for what readers like and what they don't. It's spending the time to research on places like KB, not in the "feel good" threads but trolling for what has worked for others.
> 
> ...


*LIKE*

Jay, I liked your earlier post on this thread too.

In my experience there is so much to learn in this self-publishing endeavor, and

1. paying attention to what's working for other authors, and
2. paying attention to feedback your readers give you positive and negative, then
3. applying that to your work

seems to be the most helpful.

Other authors who are ahead of me have figured out things that work. Readers who take the time to read my books AND leave reviews, or send me emails, have given me greater insight into my work than any other group. I am all ears when it comes to listening to readers.

My fantasy series is multi-POV. Although some readers like that, many/most don't like the number of POVs in the first book. The second and later installments, I reduced the number of POVS and they like that much better. Many of my readers didn't feel satisfied with the ending of Book 1. I never thought of it as cliffhanger (some have described it that way), but what I deduced is that they felt like too many threads were left unresolved, i.e. for each book, a plot thread gets resolved, but it seems most readers wanted a more satisfying pause in the story. At the end of Book 3, a MAJOR plot arc that runs from the beginning of the first book through the third book is resolved, so we created a compilation of the first three books and readers seem to find reading the three together as a more satisfying experience. And to make readers even happier, we'll be doing a KCD of that book in about a week. YAY!

Anyway, I've learned things from my readers that I couldn't learn anywhere else. They tell me honestly what they love and don't love about my work  That is the most valuable information for me as a writer. It's then my job to take the stories that I want to tell, and their valuable feedback, and apply it. It seems the more I do that, most/more readers enjoy my stories and I feel happier because you know&#8230; I want readers to love my books


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Zoe Cannon said:


> I'm really interested in the direction this thread is going, because I suspect there's a clash of personality types going on, and it's something I've noticed before in the writing community but have never been able to pin down. So bear with me while I try to put words to this.
> 
> A lot of writers talk about being driven and being dissatisfied as the same thing. The dissatisfaction is what motivates them. J.A. Konrath used to talk about this a lot (he might still, I don't know - I stopped reading his blog back before he went indie because his posts always left me depressed and discouraged). Some of you in this thread seem to be saying something similar. It's a drive to succeed, to achieve more and get to a higher level, and it necessitates a certain amount of unhappiness, because if you're satisfied with where you are then there's no drive to move up. For these writers, happiness and contentment equal complacency, which equals stagnation.
> 
> ...


This is nicely put, Zoe. Makes a lot of sense to me, too.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

I was just thinking about this earlier today. My sales have gotten worse and worse, and my output has followed. I became very discouraged, and while I know writer's block doesn't exist, I nearly had to fight back tears some days when I'd sit down to work, and the critical next book in my main series has been like pulling teeth--which always means I'm afraid, the story's gone down the wrong path, or both.

Until this evening, I'd sold four whole books this month. That's less than a book a day. I've been reading "Write Publish Repeat," listening to the Self-Publishing Podcast (surprisingly encouraging, considering), and working Julia Cameron's Artist's Way/Vein of Gold lately, and I've re-dedicated myself to reading. Somehow I'd let my fiction reading fall away, which is fatal. I decided to read and think, and not worry about the writing right now.

It came to me this morning, almost as a state of grace: suddenly I have no more F's to give, if you know what I mean. Not a one. I have this story to tell, I want to tell it, there are at least a couple hundred readers waiting for it, and I'll figure out the other stuff in time or not. I no longer give an F.

As the day's gone by, answers to some of the more perplexing book three story problems have begun to form. A successful cover artist I really respect begged me not to change the covers of my main series, which people here have insisted are awful. And a small flood of sales hit my Amazon reports tonight--completely unconnected to anything, but in my no-F's-left-to-give state I was pleasantly surprised but nothing more. That feels somewhat significant.

Something's broken loose inside me. It feels good. It feels F-less. It doesn't mean that I'm going to stop trying for success. On the contrary. It means that I'm no longer going to base my self-worth on it, or even the worth of the story. I'm going to show up, tell the g*dd**ned story, tell people how to find it, and let things happen as they will.

I'll be over here, on the Group No-F's-Left bench, playing with the pencils.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> I was just thinking about this earlier today. My sales have gotten worse and worse, and my output has followed. I became very discouraged, and while I know writer's block doesn't exist, I nearly had to fight back tears some days when I'd sit down to work, and the critical next book in my main series has been like pulling teeth--which always means I'm afraid, the story's gone down the wrong path, or both.
> 
> Until this evening, I'd sold four whole books this month. That's less than a book a day. I've been reading "Write Publish Repeat," listening to the Self-Publishing Podcast (surprisingly encouraging, considering), and working Julia Cameron's Artist's Way/Vein of Gold lately, and I've re-dedicated myself to reading. Somehow I'd let my fiction reading fall away, which is fatal. I decided to read and think, and not worry about the writing right now.
> 
> ...


Nobody should ever go f-less.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> I'll be over here, on the Group No-F's-Left bench, playing with the pencils.


Got any room left on the No-F's-Left bench? It sounds more comfortable than the "releasing book 3 more than two months after book 2" stocks of shame.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Zoe, like the infinite shelf, this is an infinite bench. Have a sit.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> It came to me this morning, almost as a state of grace: suddenly I have no more F's to give, if you know what I mean. Not a one. I have this story to tell, I want to tell it, there are at least a couple hundred readers waiting for it, and I'll figure out the other stuff in time or not. I no longer give an F.
> 
> I'll be over here, on the Group No-F's-Left bench, playing with the pencils.


I'm trying to work towards that state. I'd love to get there. Can't happen soon enough for me... but it's hard to let go of those F's.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> As the day's gone by, answers to some of the more perplexing book three story problems have begun to form. A successful cover artist I really respect begged me not to change the covers of my main series, which people here have insisted are awful.


For what it's worth MeiLin, I love the covers for _Lovers and Beloveds_ and _Son in Sorrow_.

Of course, you probably shouldn't listen to my advice on cover design, since I tend to dislike most popular trends (e.g. romance covers looking like a Calvin Kline ad from the 1990s) and insist on ignoring them in my own covers.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> I was just thinking about this earlier today. My sales have gotten worse and worse, and my output has followed. I became very discouraged, and while I know writer's block doesn't exist, I nearly had to fight back tears some days when I'd sit down to work, and the critical next book in my main series has been like pulling teeth--which always means I'm afraid, the story's gone down the wrong path, or both.
> 
> Until this evening, I'd sold four whole books this month. That's less than a book a day. I've been reading "Write Publish Repeat," listening to the Self-Publishing Podcast (surprisingly encouraging, considering), and working Julia Cameron's Artist's Way/Vein of Gold lately, and I've re-dedicated myself to reading. Somehow I'd let my fiction reading fall away, which is fatal. I decided to read and think, and not worry about the writing right now.
> 
> ...


MeiLin, this post will have been worth the entire thread and some of the flak I've copped for posting it.

Maybe I should have made the title "Learn how not to give a F" because, you know, this is what it is about, and this is why many of the bestselling authors became successful, because they didn't give a F, they didn't run after trends in either writing or marketing but did their own things and developed their own brand. For many, that involved years of coffee money and setbacks. If you ask many of the bestselling authors on the forum, few will be completely new to writing and many of us will have left a long paper trail of rejections all over the world's big tradepub offices.

This self-publishing thing has allowed us to put fiction out immediately. People expect immediate success. Well, for the most part, it doesn't work like that.

The publishing methods may have changed, but selling well is just as much had work as it was twenty years ago.

Meanwhile, you have to find your inner gecko to make sure that you can keep plugging along without constantly being derailed by crippling feelings of failure, jealousy, or inadequacy.


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## britrocker (May 16, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> So, if your books sell enough to buy you a cup of coffee, they sell, and go and celebrate your d*mn coffee!


lol Patty you made me laugh with this! Excellent.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> MeiLin, this post will have been worth the entire thread and some of the flak I've copped for posting it.


Eargh...

I hope you don't feel like I've given you flak. If anything, I probably got overly sensitive and assumed I needed to defend myself against any possibility of being even vaguely misunderstood. Which... is, you know, futile.

Anyway, I think it's been a great thread, full of lots of thoughtful posts, and I think it's helped me understand ways that other writers think and work differently than me.

So, thanks for starting it, and sorry if I started a derail avalanche.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

How are you all doing, little prawns?


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Patty Jansen said:


> How are you all doing, little prawns?


Just scribblin'....


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I just want to say, again, thank you for this beautiful post and for starting this thread. Everything you said can apply to people who are selling pretty well, as much as it does to folks who aren't selling as much yet. There is a fear and a tyranny that comes with sales. It can be hard to recapture the joy, and the "F-less-ness" thing applies to everyone. My latest book, I didn't expect to sell. The first book in the series hadn't sold well, and I was only writing this one because I wanted to. That book just poured out of me. I didn't worry about reactions, because I didn't expect much, and I got my mojo back, and it was a beautiful thing.

But it turns out it sold really well, and now I'm writing the next book in the series, and darn it, the fear is back, because now there's a weight of expectation. I have to remind myself over and over again that I am doing this for ME. All I can do is write the story in my head and present it well. That's what's got me here, and I have to dance with the one what brung me. 

I started writing for the joy of it, because it expressed me and fulfilled me in a way nothing else ever had. That's what I want out of this deal. Sales are great, but part of that is knowing that other people are connecting to what I wrote. And they do that because it comes from my most authentic self (which turns out to be a pretty sappy, but interestingly steamy place). That's the connection I have to keep. That's the one that matters.

Helen Keller said this a lot better than I can. "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure."

(OK, if you write technical manuals, or if you view writing as a job and don't need the emotional connection, all bets are off. But that's it for me.)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody, and thank you so much for sharing. Finding this board has been one of the best things about this year.


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## LKWatts (May 5, 2011)

Great post! I'm trying not to check sales at the moment - I'm just trying to write my next book


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## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

I love this post. I have nothing profound to add. I just love this post and the whole thread that follows.


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## portiadacosta (Feb 28, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> How are you all doing, little prawns?


Not well, but am going to hope for better things in 2014 and work harder to achieve them.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I gave myself permission to take 3 days off for Christmas, and it feels like I'm ditching school! Marvelously fun!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm back in the writing groove and finished the wip this morning. I've let all kinds of outside stresses keep me from doing what makes me happy, and that's writing. Sales are wonderful but they take a back seat to the joy of creating something I can be proud of.  Mine have taken a bit of an upswing the last couple of days, so I'm looking at these few extra sales as an early Christmas present.

I expect to get back to two hours of writing daily on Thursday. It's been a long, dry eight months. Not entirely unproductive, but only because I'd written so much ahead.

Merry Christmas, my fellow prawns, and may the New Year bring you joy!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Merry Christmas to all the little prawns (and the not so little ones--remember who you used to be).

I released a new book yesterday and am steaming ahead in the new year. Sales? Who cares about sales?


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## H. S. St. Ours (Mar 24, 2012)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I'm back in the writing groove and finished the wip this morning.
> 
> Merry Christmas, my fellow prawns, and may the New Year bring you joy!


Congrats, Gertie! Great achievement.

And Merry Christmas (or whatever) to us indie prawns, every one.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

I had two sales of my book in December. Count them, 2, 2 sales. Ahhhhahhhhhhaa. I'm happy to have them. The secret is to keep writing, and bake sugar cookies. Lots of sugar cookies.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

I released a novella last week and have sold a total of one copy. To my mom.

But you know what? It's still my favorite of all the books I've published so far. So there.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Zoe Cannon said:


> I released a novella last week and have sold a total of one copy. To my mom.
> 
> But you know what? It's still my favorite of all the books I've published so far. So there.


You should do an audiobook. Then your mom _and _your narrator's mom will buy a copy. I speak from experience.



MarilynVix said:


> I had two sales of my book in December. Count them, 2, 2 sales. Ahhhhahhhhhhaa. I'm happy to have them. The secret is to keep writing, and bake sugar cookies. Lots of sugar cookies.


Did somebody say sugar cookies? I'm playing Christmas songs. I have hot chocolate, but no sugar cookies. <sigh>


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I woke up this morning (Christmas) to find that someone has been through my entire ISF/Allion series and bought a copy of each book.

Whoever you are, thank you.

As you see, my sales are not big. They've never been big on Amazon. Kobo killed off 70% of my sales, but there are slight signs of improvement in those quarters, if the numbers of freebie downloads on book 1 of my trilogy is anything to go by.

I will release another novel in February, and have started planning a few other projects.

2014, here come the prawns!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> I woke up this morning (Christmas) to find that someone has been through my entire ISF/Allion series and bought a copy of each book.
> 
> Whoever you are, thank you.
> 
> ...


Congrats, Patty. Love your banner.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Congrats, Patty. Love your banner.


Thanks. I'll probably change the banner soon and go back to book covers for a while, just for a change.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Michael, in my house, SECURITY means having a back-up roll of TP in the bathroom.

Which reminds me ...


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Mcoorlim said:


> Dealing with scarcity issues. My sales always ebb low this time of year. I'm feeling discouraged because my sales haven't seen a significant increase since October of last year, regardless of what I've tried or what kind of publishing schedule I've pursued.
> 
> I make enough to live on - barely - but it feels like my income has detached from my effort. Whatever I do/don't do, I make within $200 of the same four-figure threshold.
> 
> ...


That sounds like you're in a bit of a dark place. It's probably also a reality that any improvement will take a fairly long time to take hold.

Have you thought about starting a new series in a new subgenre?
Do you have any writing-related skills you can sell for a quick buck, such as cover design, editing or formatting?
Would it be feasible to get a part-time job to get a secure income?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Patty, I love this thread so freaking much! Thanks for starting it. 

2014 is the Year of the Prawn. Make it so. And Happy Whatever Winter Celebration to you all.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Mcoorlim said:


> Unfortunately I took the plunge into self-publishing because the temp agencies weren't calling and my freelance copywriting gigs had dried up. Things aren't much better now along those lines. Besides, I'd rather be writing and barely scraping by than working at Target and barely scraping by.
> 
> New Series: I'm working on something. Different genre, suited to my mood.
> 
> Other skills: I do all my own cover layout with stock and commissioned art; theoretically I could sell that skill, but I've no idea how to leverage it.


Ouch. That's kinda hard. Personally, I would take the part-time Target job for the sake of security, and try to work myself up to a better-paid part-time job. But that's just me.

Could you perhaps write something in non-fiction?


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

I could try writing non-fiction, but I don't really grasp it the same way I get fiction. Take a bit of study to figure it out. Not that I'm opposed, mind you, but it's the same as the "cover design" option; I just don't know where to start. 

Really, though, I just need to sell more books. Write more books. Trim the fat from my production cycle.


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Mimi (was Dalya) said:


> I always like to point out that if you suffer from anxiety / depression / alcoholism / cookie-holism / the crazies / the bends / schadenfreude, you need to TREAT THAT MALADY and not blame Amazon.
> 
> If you're having a tough time with publishing, step back and see if you're really just having a tough time being you.
> 
> Dunno about you prawns, but I'm my best friend and worst enemy. Put your arms around yourself as far as they'll go, given the cookie-holism, and give yourself a d*mn hug.


I just clicked on your author page, shocked to say the least, tons of books and everything below 200,000 and some less than 1000. I would call that a super success story and WOW.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Mcoorlim said:


> A balance is important in life. I know. But honestly... I don't care about going to holiday parties, to movies, to hang out with friends, to the park, to the gym, because none of those things matter until I feel _safe_. The wolf is at my door, all the time, and if I stop writing for even one second Amazon will cut all of our royalties to 35%, Barnes and Noble will go under, and everyone will decide reading is for losers.
> 
> I have no certainty. I have no security. My birthday is coming up in 5 weeks, and all I want to do is be left alone so I can work.
> 
> Work is the only thing that will save me, but there won't be much left when I'm done. Just because I'm aware of my insecurity doesn't mean I can do anything about it. This is fundemental stuff... therapy can't help. I just need to achieve that "Security" level, and then I can start caring about Belonging again.


I seriously identify with the security bit.

But this is really the truth of the matter:



Rosalind James said:


> Helen Keller said this a lot better than I can. "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure."


There IS no security. Even if you got a part-time job at Target, that wouldn't guarantee that you didn't get downsized, Target didn't go under, you didn't get in an accident that meant you lost use of your legs, or the world wasn't overrun by zombies.

Anyway, when I do feel safe--which isn't often enough--it's because I remind myself that I am really well equipped at navigating disaster. That I'm quite good at living in an insecure world, and that I choose the starving artist path because I can handle it. And that the universe has buoyed me up more times than I ever seem to remember. It seems to me that this is the third December in a row than I have hurtled into the New Year flailing, wondering if I was even going to make it. And... thus far, I always have. Not for any reason other than I risked it, near as I can figure.

Three cheers for risk!


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Security may not actually exist, but that's not relevant to the psychological perception of need and motivation. I should write about Maslow next; Kubler-Ross was fun. Maybe Dunning-Kruger after that.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I suggest that anyone who questions the need for security has never spent any time surviving on temporary visas/immigration queues/unable to get jobs because of that/unable to get bank loans/ unable to freaking move forward until some freaking bureaucrat puts a freaking stamp on a piece of paper.

Security is everything.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Agreed. I'm grateful that my sales are enough that I'm not living on other people's couches anymore. I wish it was enough that I felt that I could take a breath. Someday I hope to be able to write without it feeling like everything rides on every choice I make.


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> You should do an audiobook. Then your mom _and _your narrator's mom will buy a copy. I speak from experience.
> 
> Did somebody say sugar cookies? I'm playing Christmas songs. I have hot chocolate, but no sugar cookies. <sigh>


*Throws a cookie to Gertie* To whatever helps you celebrate. Remember, you got us! Happy Christmas to all Indie Prawns! Just think of all of those Kindles being opened in a few hours.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

I gave myself permission to rest and recharge this month. You can't push a rope and I'm a limp piece of yarn right now. Three of the last twelve I've been sick or recovering from surgery; it's no wonder I'm just AAAAGH. The successful book signing on Saturday was a lovely boost to my self-confidence and as I sit here literally untangling yarn I'm working on the tangles of my series. It's all going to work out--I feel that for the first time in a long time.

Also my husband is making plans to build me a vardo-shaped office in the back yard.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Mcoorlim said:


> I could try writing non-fiction, but I don't really grasp it the same way I get fiction. Take a bit of study to figure it out. Not that I'm opposed, mind you, but it's the same as the "cover design" option; I just don't know where to start.
> 
> Really, though, I just need to sell more books. Write more books. Trim the fat from my production cycle.


Practice, practice, practice.

Do you have Excel? Do you have Powerpoint? Paint.net is a good free option and so is GIMP, also free. GIMP is more like photoshop and I haven't taken to it as easily as the others. But, there are many tutorials on youtube.

I used to make all of mine on Excel and then copy and paste them into paint.net. Now I use PowerPoint starting with a 6x9 blank sheet, and when I'm finished, I save it as a jpg. Then I open the jpg in paint.net and resize it to 1600x2500 96dpi. That way, I have the 6x9 for the paperback (resave in paint.net at 330dpi) and the other is kindle ready.

I just redid a few covers and got all the artwork on Istock for 1 credit each. It just takes a bit of searching. I also save several images before I decide on one to purchase and play around with them. Istock isn't the only game in town, but I usually find what I need there.

Then put your cover up on KB and stand back as the critiques fly. Good KB'ers will help you make your cover better.

Here's my latest effort. One of them I already had (lower right corner), but the others I put together. Not available for kindle so I'm not promoting.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

Solid advice, Patty. 
Thank you and merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Maybe being a prawn  isn't as bad as I'd imagined...


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Not happy today? Feeling a little lonely? Never forget that you can always come to WC and find friends.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Practice, practice, practice.


Oh, no... I can design covers well enough. I just don't know how to get into selling that skill to other people. :/


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

valeriec80 said:


> Anyway, when I do feel safe--which isn't often enough--it's because I remind myself that I am really well equipped at navigating disaster. That I'm quite good at living in an insecure world, and that I choose the starving artist path because I can handle it. And that the universe has buoyed me up more times than I ever seem to remember. It seems to me that this is the third December in a row than I have hurtled into the New Year flailing, wondering if I was even going to make it. And... thus far, I always have. Not for any reason other than I risked it, near as I can figure.
> 
> Three cheers for risk!


I love this!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Mcoorlim said:


> Oh, no... I can design covers well enough. I just don't know how to get into selling that skill to other people. :/


That is the trick. And it's why prices are normally pretty high for freelance art/design work. It's considerably more work to maintain the business as it is to do the artwork itself.

And the marketing and such isn't like it is with selling your book: The business doesn't scale -- you sell each cover only once, and that money is all you'll ever see. So you don't get to leverage your marketing and other overhead over a passive income return for the long term: you stop working hard, you stop making money. You take a week off, no income.

I'm doing "pre-made" covers for Self-Pub Book Covers, but that's a site that's still building, and they have a serious down side in that it's the author who does the typography with their built-in web tools -- so you really have to design the work to go with bad typography created with very very limited tools. (And their sales are slow so far.)

You probably could work in your spare time on pre-made book covers (which you could sell yourself from a website, with just email contact and Paypal payments -- no need for a shopping cart) and only worry about building a business after you have a strong portfolio.

Camille


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## Gabriela Popa (Apr 7, 2010)

Patty, great solid observations.  

The only thing is - I hate donuts, but I'll gladly take croissants with coffee.


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## Zoe Cannon (Sep 2, 2012)

Gabriela Popa said:


> Patty, great solid observations.
> 
> The only thing is - I hate donuts, but I'll gladly take croissants with coffee.


I hate coffee, but will gladly take croissants with donuts.

...Maybe that treadmill desk isn't such a bad idea...


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## Gabriela Popa (Apr 7, 2010)

Zoe Cannon said:


> I hate coffee, but will gladly take croissants with donuts.
> 
> ...Maybe that treadmill desk isn't such a bad idea...


  double penalty!! agree with the treadmill....


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> You probably could work in your spare time on pre-made book covers (which you could sell yourself from a website, with just email contact and Paypal payments -- no need for a shopping cart) and only worry about building a business after you have a strong portfolio.
> 
> Camille


This sounds like something I could do. Just add a new tab to my website's menu, throw up a few covers, and let people customize the text. It's not like I don't have a ton of stock photo site credits.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

As a bonus, I find that working on graphics is relaxing. I should probably put those plans to set up a sub-blog for book covers in action. I've been too busy writing.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Michael, there is some really nice stuff there and I would encourage you to keep going. Start your own thread cover thread here. You have an eye for selecting striking parts of photographs. Not everyone has that.

It's still a little bit flat in typography, but tbh very few of the cover designers on this board get that right, but if you can do this, you'll do really well. I'm not saying this to make you feel good, because I'm honestly not the type of person to say things merely to make someone feel good. I think some of the designs are really nice, for example that one of the house, but the typography could pop more. Look at what Clarissa, Jason Gurley and Damonza are doing with their typography. Those guys are the best.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

I used to be more creative with typography, but then someone told me something along the lines of "never use any effects other than stroke". Don't remember what the situation was, but it was some professional cover layout person, and I stopped using drop shadows and bevels that very day.

I think it might have been a WorldCon panel I attended.

Or are you talking about font choice/kearning?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Mcoorlim said:


> I used to be more creative with typography, but then someone told me something along the lines of "never use any effects other than stroke". Don't remember what the situation was, but it was some professional cover layout person, and I stopped using drop shadows and bevels that very day.
> 
> I think it might have been a WorldCon panel I attended.
> 
> Or are you talking about font choice/kearning?


Just look at the sites of the designers I mentioned. It's not in the special effects, but in which fonts they use and where and how they place the text.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks!  Love these points!


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Just look at the sites of the designers I mentioned. It's not in the special effects, but in which fonts they use and where and how they place the text.


I see what you mean. Now if only I could figure out how to replicate that poppiness.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Sooo, prawns, how are we all going?

I have to admit to having moved out of prawn territory into mid-list for this month, but I'll crawl back into my prawny hole next month.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Two sales this month, and plotting a novella to make free to generate some interest in the book. Also gearing up for book 2's rewrite. It was a Nanowrimo and it ... uh ... needs work. Thankfully, the kind people on Wattpad have ripped it up for me.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> Sooo, prawns, how are we all going?
> 
> I have to admit to having moved out of prawn territory into mid-list for this month, but I'll crawl back into my prawny hole next month.


Don't apologize for reaching mid-list. I sincerely hope you keep moving up.

I'm not sure where I'm at. ACX keeps sending me money but since their dashboard is confusing, I'm not sure how I'm earning it. It's enough to take my mother and granddaughter to lunch at Panera, and I'm thrilled people are actually listening to the books.

December was decent, saved by a last minute Christmas flurry, but January is feeling sad and lonely. I've got a BargainBooksy ad coming up in February and crossing my fingers for an ENT BOTD this year.

I just released three bundles last week along with a short story in a new series, so I'm keeping on, keeping on. And as long as I'm smiling when I'm writing, I'm a very happy indie prawn.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

It seems I'm spending my way out of trouble. I've spent a lot on advertising in the past six weeks, but...

In November, with the Kobo snafu, I discovered that some of the formatting in my EPUBs was off. I'd always uploaded DOC files and never had a problem, but my books didn't have a TOC.

I was in the middle of something else, and decided to hire someone to do all that shit, because I HATE it with the passion of ten thousand suns.

Turns out, formatting makes a difference in sales. It makes a difference in being accepted by BookBub, which was what happened next.

Turns out, one of the formatters I hired is also and excellent editor. Previously, I'd swapped edits with friends. I've edited a small magazine, and they were co-editors. I'd edit theirs and they'd do mine. But I was increasingly unhappy with the amount of time I was sinking in manuscripts that weren't mine.

Enter a paid editor who I just mail the file and presto! An edited file comes out the other end.

I also do my own covers. I enjoy art, have done it all my life, and I honestly don't think my covers are bad. But the typography could be better, and while I think that book 1 of the Aghyrians series has a great cover, I'm a bit less happy with 2 and 3. Now I'm writing book 4. I'm kinda out of ideas. When I do art, I want it to be relaxing. I want it to be an image I can post on my blog or add in my mailing list as background material to my fiction.

So I've asked a cover designer as well.

With all this, and the advertising, I'm spending all the money I'm making on my books.

Last year, I made $7500 and bought a really good camera and an overseas trip. This year, I hope to make more and will spend whatever necessary to enable me to write more and put out a good product more easily. And I plan to spend more on advertising. BookBub, KBT, ENT, Bookblast etc, here I come!


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Patty Jansen said:


> With all this, and the advertising, I'm spending all the money I'm making on my books.


I spend all I make, too, mostly on editing and advertising, but not for the same reasons. If I make over $25K a year, including my SS and pension, I have to pay taxes on my SS. I don't mind paying taxes on the new money I make, but I resent having to pay taxes on SS. Thank goodness for itemizing, although they are now talking about eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. If that happens, I'll either have to unpublish all my books or make a boatload of money.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I spend all I make, too, mostly on editing and advertising, but not for the same reasons. If I make over $25K a year, including my SS and pension, I have to pay taxes on my SS. I don't mind paying taxes on the new money I make, but I resent having to pay taxes on SS. Thank goodness for itemizing, although they are now talking about eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. If that happens, I'll either have to unpublish all my books or make a boatload of money.


I would opt for the make a boat load of money option, myself.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

VydorScope said:


> I would opt for the make a boat load of money option, myself.


Ya think?


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## MarilynVix (Jun 19, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Sooo, prawns, how are we all going?
> 
> I have to admit to having moved out of prawn territory into mid-list for this month, but I'll crawl back into my prawny hole next month.


January has been really slow. Pretty hardly my cup of coffee sales. But working on a promo for Valentine's Day. Getting book trailer going, and listing promo prices for Valentine's Day. Hopefully, that will get sales to go up. Anybody else trying things for Valentine's Day?


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

MarilynVix said:


> January has been really slow. Pretty hardly my cup of coffee sales. But working on a promo for Valentine's Day. Getting book trailer going, and listing promo prices for Valentine's Day. Hopefully, that will get sales to go up. Anybody else trying things for Valentine's Day?


I've got a promo on BargainBooksy for one of my romance bundles.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

We were talking about this thread elsewhere.

I've not felt that much of a prawn in the past month, but I'll go back to being a prawn in February.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi Patty --

Did I see you in BookBub this month? I actually found that for my trilogy, a BookBub second in series sale did pretty well. I hope to run a Bookbub promo in March (if they take me again), and then in 2nd in series in April (if they take me again).

Pixel of Ink and ENT are also great if you can get them. (It's totally worth it to keep applying to both of them!)


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## GWakeling (Mar 23, 2012)

It's going well here and I'm pretty happy with my indie prawn status. Just over 50 sales in January; pretty happy with that. Decided to give up chasing big numbers and to stop stressing. Since doing that, I'm having a lot more fun writing, talking to readers and generally having a more relaxed attitude.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes, I was on bookbub  on 3 Jan. I got lots of sales on the back of that and I'm still going. 

I'm debating making a second book free. It's currently sitting at 99c. I could jack the price back up, sell little over 3 months, then apply to bookbub for another 99c special, or I could make it free, and apply every few weeks until they accept, and have the freedom to advertise elsewhere at the same time. Hmmm. I may just have answered my own question.


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## LKWatts (May 5, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> As a bonus, I find that working on graphics is relaxing. I should probably put those plans to set up a sub-blog for book covers in action. I've been too busy writing.


I love your covers! They're really cool!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

LKWatts said:


> I love your covers! They're really cool!


Thank you. I managed to get that sub-blog site with covers up http://pattyjansen.com/design/


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

If there's an indie prawn club, sign me up.

Great post.


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## Elodie (Jan 28, 2014)

Very well said and for a newbie like me, very helpful


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

As we're moving into off-season territory, maybe it's time to dig up the prawn post again.

How are you all going, prawns?

As for me, I'm still selling more in self-pub than in tradepub.


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## Scratchy_Bitey (Nov 28, 2013)

I seem to be swimming along quite happily at the moment. So, you know, fingers crossed.
New releases help. I hope!


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Had a small bump after coming off a very impressive (for me) free promotion, but it seems to have died down now.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Oh, having a tiny trickle of sales every month. It's greater than zero, so I'm happy! Chewing through book 2 in my series so I can get it out there. Thankfully book 3 only needs revisions instead of a whole rewrite.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I got into the Kobo Easter weekend sale. Pretty happy about that, because diversification is the game.


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## zzzzzzz (Dec 6, 2011)

Nice!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Reasonably decent day so far, and pretty typical.

Sold 23 books, NONE OF WHICH on Amazon. My inability to sell anything much on Amazon without advertising heavily never ceases to amaze me.

From which I conclude:

1. Awesome. There are a lot more other venues and they don't have as much competition anyway.
2. Bookbub to the rescue (next week)!


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Reasonably decent day so far, and pretty typical.
> 
> Sold 23 books, NONE OF WHICH on Amazon. My inability to sell anything much on Amazon without advertising heavily never ceases to amaze me.


Patty, that's awesome - congratulations! With levels like those you might get kicked out of the prawn club.

If they're not selling on Amazon, what does that mean? Are Kobo and Google Play working that well for you?


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## Scott Pixello (May 4, 2013)

Third in my Roman series out soon, readership building slowly. All going according to my evil plan for world domination. You will succumb- give in, give in to your craving. Sooner or later, everyone will join the Pixelloverse. Bwa-ha-ha-ha.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

The Other Evan said:


> Patty, that's awesome -- congratulations! With levels like those you might get kicked out of the prawn club.
> 
> If they're not selling on Amazon, what does that mean? Are Kobo and Google Play working that well for you?


I'm selling a few copies here and there pretty much everywhere except Amazon. Kobo is usually my best venue. Seen over the year, however, it's not my best venue because of the sales spikes I get on Amazon when I do advertise. All other sites give me a much better return rate for those sales, because I don't have to discount (in fact, on most sites the higher-priced books sell better) and I don't have to advertise.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

What promotion works to gain visibility on Kobo?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Sapphire said:


> What promotion works to gain visibility on Kobo?


First book free.


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## Ceinwen (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm wrapping up the final technical touches on my debut novel, so I should be releasing and joining the prawn club next month! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Mcoorlin, Wattpad's featuring my western serial in May, too.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm nominally on Wattpad, but to be honest the site looks a little like a lot of work to me. I've intended to put up the remaining chapters of my freebie.Presumably I'll get more interest when the book is complete, but it's one of those things I haven't gotten around to doing, and I'm not sure if it's worth the time. Unless one of you can convince me otherwise.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I'm nominally on Wattpad, but to be honest the site looks a little like a lot of work to me. I've intended to put up the remaining chapters of my freebie.Presumably I'll get more interest when the book is complete, but it's one of those things I haven't gotten around to doing, and I'm not sure if it's worth the time. Unless one of you can convince me otherwise.


From what I can tell Wattpad is like Facebook, Twitter, Goodreads and other sites. It takes TIME and INTERACTION to pay off. If you just toss up a few chapters and do nothing else - you are likely to get nothing. I have not had the time to focus on building a platform there so I could be way off, but that is the impression I get from my investigations into it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

VydorScope said:


> From what I can tell Wattpad is like Facebook, Twitter, Goodreads and other sites. It takes TIME and INTERACTION to pay off. If you just toss up a few chapters and do nothing else - you are likely to get nothing. I have not had the time to focus on building a platform there so I could be way off, but that is the impression I get from my investigations into it.


That's what I figured. I don't have that kind of time, or am unwilling to set it aside. I'd rather write.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

I have 53 episodes of a serial already written and 25 of them posted at Wattpad. We'll see what happens when they feature it.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

What a great post! Thanks!!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Hmmm, this is interesting. I was just thinking about this post the other day when so many people started complaining about their sales.

The other day, somebody in the local scene called me a "successful" self-publisher, and while my level of success is probably higher than that of a writer trying to sell through tradepub and snatching the odd short story sale (as there are a LOT of local SFF writers still doing), I figured that this person really doesn't know what "successful" looks like. Mwahaha!

That said, I don't think I can call myself a prawn anymore, and I've been reading the other threads but haven't commented for that reason. The prawn-struggle is no longer mine. Someone said that successful writers hijacked a thread, and I feel there was some truth in that. It's all very well to go heavy-handed on new writers and give them the laundry list of the things they are doing wrong, but that's not going to work if those writers are so new that they don't have the experience to understand what you're talking about. This is not meant in a derogatory way. Everyone starts somewhere and it truly does take a while to catch up on the "feel" of the market. Not saying I know everything (because I don't, not in the slightest), but I'm getting there. Last month, I broke a milestone: My sales are about $1000 a month all up. Because of my utter, utter failure to secure Bookbub ads (and my failure to seek other advertising), this number is fairly steady. But it's made up out of a lot of different retailers. Last month I broke the $1000 in a month for one single retailer. It wasn't Amazon.

If you're selling poorly, you can do two things:

1. Put a sock in the complaining about sales numbers, write whatever the hell you want and put whatever covers on it and enjoy yourself.
2. Whatever you're doing now is not working. Do something different. Repackage, re-brand, start a new series, a new subgenre, an new pen-name, new covers, advertise. If you're promoting the hell out of your stuff and it's not working, stop promoting and start writing. Make a plan. Ignore sales numbers for the time being.

That said, I'm going to say a few things about people who do want to sell better, because I've noticed some common themes:

1. Covers. Really. They're so important, you don't even know how important. Get a cover that people find pretty and that represents your genre. Don't have money? Learn how to do an acceptable job yourself. It's not rocket science.
2. Get out there and bat for your work. I don't mean tweet the hell out of it, but find those awesome lists C. Gockel puts out there and submit your work to promo sites. Just frakkin' do it. Got no money? Try the free sites. Made $10 last month? Spend it on two ads with bknights, or something. No one is going to care as much about your work as you do.
3. Formatting. A lot of books are just awfully, awfully formatted.
4. Please learn how to punctuate dialogue, and other versions of "edit your work". 

For all the above: Learn how to do an acceptable job yourself or pay someone, I don't care. Just do it.

About having a plan: My plan was to write a couple of series at the same time to give readers multiple funnels. I write space opera, fantasy and hard SF. 

People will tell you not to start multiple series, but in the long run, it pays off. It doesn't, however, lead to a great number of immediate sales. I've now completed one of those series, but I'm doing two more. 

But don't be blind to opportunities: I'm enjoying KU because I've put up some of my short work. And hey! People actually borrow these stories (whereas previously no one was buying them). That's $100 a month for short fiction that was earning $0 per month before.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Great post, Patty. Agreed on all counts. (And yay! $100 in short story borrows! That's great!)

Rue


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Kayla. said:


> "1. Put a sock in the complaining about sales numbers, write whatever the hell you want and put whatever covers on it and enjoy yourself."
> Already done, and I'm actually pretty happy with my sales right now.
> I plan on writing kiddie books again. Might not sell, but it's my Christmas present to myself. I'd like to hit 10 books published, possibly before New Year's.


Haha. Good on ya.

This all comes down to the reason why you write.

A while ago I wrote a blog post about the reason why I write. Money? Yeah, I'd like to be paid. I'm not interested in art for art's sake. I've always sold my art and will continue to do so. To have readers? Yeah, one goes with the other. Sales = readers or the other way around. The real reason I write is that I want to write fiction that I can be proud of, and I wouldn't "sell out" to a genre I don't enjoy for the sake of money.


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## Geoff Jones (Jun 20, 2014)

Looking back over the original post, I see a lot of good advice.

But one comment seems really wrong: 


> *Ignore the Joneses*


Please do not do this. Seriously. Please?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Geoff Jones said:


> Looking back over the original post, I see a lot of good advice.
> 
> But one comment seems really wrong:
> Please do not do this. Seriously. Please?


LOLOL. I spent a few seconds trying to figure out: what's he on about. Then I saw your last name. BOOMBADABOOM


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't know how I missed this thread earlier in the year...

Great advice.

I've finally realized that writing is really more of a lifestyle than a job.  If the daily grind of putting words on a page is frustrating for you, writing is not your calling.  You have to enjoy every challenge writing presents.  Even the moments of writer's block.  Sales be damned.


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## T.M. Blades (May 1, 2013)

Checking in for the non-romantic sci-fi fantasy dungeon section. It seems like those genres don't even exist on some promo sites if they are not part of the romance subset. It makes me sad. :-(


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

T.M. Blades said:


> Checking in for the non-romantic sci-fi fantasy dungeon section. It seems like those genres don't even exist on some promo sites if they are not part of the romance subset. It makes me sad. :-(


This is not true at all. All sites that I know of, except perhaps the ones with "romance" in the site title, accept science fiction and fantasy that are not romances. In fact, romance goes in the romance category, but there are plenty of people buying other genres.


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## hs (Feb 15, 2011)

This is a great post, Patty! I hadn't seen it before, but I'm glad I finally did. 
I hope that in the year since you started this thread, you've graduated from prawn status.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Patty, that's fantastic! I love these slow-and-steady success stories, the idea of building up a solid footing with a good backlist.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

> Sales are funny. Once you get used to a certain level, it's never enough.


So very true.


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## Mark Tyson (Sep 22, 2014)

Great post! Thanks!


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## bobbic (Apr 4, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> *Definitions*
> Russell Blake so famously said: _Most. Books. Don't. Sell._
> I actually dislike this statement. It is 100% true that most books won't make any bestseller lists. They don't need to. There are legions of writers doing quite well (and meeting their own goals, including paying a living wage) without ever having had any books in any bestseller lists.


Great post, Patty. Thank you! I'll just add that Blake's pretty much right. Books do sell, but when they're traditionally published, the million best-sellers help support the others. They publish tons in order to get a few great ones out of the mix. As an indie publisher, we don't have the million best-sellers to support our businesses. I'd be happy with enough to buy a few groceries every month. Actually, I'm there now. The only thing that worries me is that we can't seem to grow a business like other folks can, but we can hopefully build our reputation as authors who put out quality books. And that's worth a lot. And if there's coffee money--bonus! :-D


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I had built up a bit of money in my business account and happily looked at it every once in a while. Then boom! Had to buy new dishwasher, two new tires, new microwave/convection oven, and a couple of other domestic disasters. Now my account is back to coffee money.

The point is, my prawny sales allowed me to cover all those unexpected expenses. Happy prawn, here.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you, Patty. Wise words of advice. I am a happy indie prawn, hoping one day to swim with the bigger fish. 

*sigh* A girl can dream...


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> I had built up a bit of money in my business account and happily looked at it every once in a while. Then boom! Had to buy new dishwasher, two new tires, new microwave/convection oven, and a couple of other domestic disasters. Now my account is back to coffee money.
> 
> The point is, my prawny sales allowed me to cover all those unexpected expenses. Happy prawn, here.


Gertie, isn't that the best feeling, though? I saved up my royalty money and took hubby on holiday to Mexico (flights were Aeroplan miles and accommodation was free). Still, we couldn't have done the trip without that nice little nest egg 

Rue


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

ruecole said:


> Gertie, isn't that the best feeling, though? I saved up my royalty money and took hubby on holiday to Mexico (flights were Aeroplan miles and accommodation was free). Still, we couldn't have done the trip without that nice little nest egg
> 
> Rue


Absolutely the best feeling. However much it is, that's money neither one of us would have had. You would have missed out on a great holiday with your DH and I would have been washing dishes by hand.


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## ruecole (Jun 13, 2012)

Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake' said:


> Absolutely the best feeling. However much it is, that's money neither one of us would have had. You would have missed out on a great holiday with your DH and I would have been washing dishes by hand.


Exactly! My ultimate goal would to be able to buy hubby a truck. His car is on its last legs, but we can't afford a new (to us) vehicle right now. Come on, BookBub ad. 

Rue


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