# A YA writer quits - Sad and a bit sickening



## Paul Huxley (Feb 27, 2014)

I've always thought that Kickstarter was a legitimate way for indies to go, this blog post by Stacie Jay detailing why she stopped her own campaign and is retreating from YA therefore is a bit upsetting.

http://staceyjayya.blogspot.pt/2015/01/apology-explanation-and-why-i-cancelled.html?m=1


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Paul Huxley said:


> I've always thought that Kickstarter was a legitimate way for indies to go, this blog post by Stacie Jay detailing why she stopped her own campaign and is retreating from YA therefore is a bit upsetting.
> 
> http://staceyjayya.blogspot.pt/2015/01/apology-explanation-and-why-i-cancelled.html?m=1


I saw something about this on passive voice. Personally, I think she should just write it regardless. It will take longer, but i wrote most of my books before I went full time using dinner and tea breaks, and the evenings before bed. I'm sure she can succeed. Never give up never surrender... even if it takes 14 years like it did for me.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Personally, I think she should just write it regardless.


I agree. She should write what she wants to write, and let the haters hate on. There'll always be haters, and retreating from a pen name and a genre she seemed to enjoy writing in doesn't make much sense to me. She's let all the naysayers into her office and is allowing them to dictate her path forward.


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## Christine_C (Jun 29, 2014)

Paul Huxley said:


> I've always thought that Kickstarter was a legitimate way for indies to go, this blog post by Stacie Jay detailing why she stopped her own campaign and is retreating from YA therefore is a bit upsetting.
> 
> http://staceyjayya.blogspot.pt/2015/01/apology-explanation-and-why-i-cancelled.html?m=1


I saw some of that blogging anger playing out on twitter.


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## Christine_C (Jun 29, 2014)

But yeah I don't see a reason to give up on the book all together. If she has to find another day job anyway, might as well keep it going and just write more slowly!


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Honestly, I've never liked Kickstarter for writers.  I've funded a few friends of mine, but the whole concept has always rubbed me a little wrong.  Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I've always believed that the risk falls upon me for that initial investment on a self-pub project.  If it pays off, great.  It gets reinvested in the next one.  If not, then it's up to me to determine if I want to take on more risk until it does.  

I don't consider this writing for free, because the end product is then sold for what I consider to be a fair price.

So I feel bad that she's pulling the plug, but at the same time it's her decision to make if she chooses to not go a different way to get her book out there.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Honestly, I've never liked Kickstarter for writers. I've funded a few friends of mine, but the whole concept has always rubbed me a little wrong.


I've seen writers handle kickstarter projects well. Michael Sullivan's effort for _Hollow World_ comes to mind. It was focused on the project and the product; not on his personal livelihood. That might be the mistake Jay made--announcing that some of the proceeds would go to her day-to-day expenses. I wonder how things would have went if she had focused on just the project and the product, and just not mentioned the rest of it.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2015)

> I also hope you'll believe me when I say I wasn't acting out of a place of greed. When I included money to pay basic living expenses (mortgage, groceries, gas) for the three months it would take to write the book in my Kickstarter it was because there is no way I can write a book in 3 months while working another full time job or writing other books on the side.


So a person with very little business sense and unrealistic expectations about the market created a Kickstarter than included her living expenses and I'm supposed to be upset for her that it didn't work out?

THIS is everything wrong with Kickstarter. A sense of entitlement to other people's money to help you "live the dream." Crowdsourcing is great in theory, and I have certainly donated to Kickstarters in the past for stuff that I was really excited about (Like the Order of the Stick, Reading Rainbow, some White Wolf projects). But the whole point of crowdsourcing is that the project is something to benefit the community, not just finance the author's business so they have no risk. There is nothing to stop her from writing her book other than the fact that she wanted other people to pay her bills for her in the process. She can easily do what thousands of authors do: find the time and make due.

And this is from a previously trade published author? Did her previous publisher give her three months of living expenses to write her LAST Book and then let her keep 100% of the profits from book sales? I can't even fathom why she would have thought this was a rational request.


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## Christine_C (Jun 29, 2014)

It ends with this, which might be more related to her reasons for quitting. There seems to be an increasingly fraught relationship between YA writers and readers for whatever reason. 

"And just for the record, this isn't the sole reason I'm retreating. This is definitely the nail in the coffin, but I've noticed increasing vitriol in the Young Adult community for years now. It's sad. A community that was once a warm, welcoming place has become a place where people wait to pounce and tear at flesh the moment someone steps out of line (in their perspective)."


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Jim Johnson said:


> I've seen writers handle kickstarter projects well. Michael Sullivan's effort for _Hollow World_ comes to mind. It was focused on the project and the product; not on his personal livelihood. That might be the mistake Jay made--announcing that some of the proceeds would go to her day-to-day expenses. I wonder how things would have went if she had focused on just the project and the product, and just not mentioned the rest of it.


Definitely agreed here. When I fund a Kickstarter, I'm typically 100% interested in the product (hello, Primeswords!), not in being someone's patron.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

You've got to be able to have a set of balls no matter what business you work in. The fact that she cancelled her Kickstarter and then wrote an apology because a few people didn't like it is a little silly... She should have let the Kickstarter run and then written the book per usual if it had been funded.

IMO it is like a writer giving up because he/she gets bad reviews. Nonsense! Do what you think is right and what will be the most profitable for you in the long run. Don't let anyone else tell you what to do. Haters are going to hate no matter what.


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## hardnutt (Nov 19, 2010)

Yikes! I've never even thought about using Kickstarter - but then there was no such thing when I started writing. You just carried on, carrying on until a publisher said yes. Not sure I'd want the extra pressure anyway.

But if you want to do something enough, you'll do it and continue to do it, regardless of anything or anyone. If you work full-time, as I did for many years, you'll just give up watching television/having a social life.

But, while her experience certainly reveals the nasty side of the internet, it seems she also has good supporters. So she should carry on for their sake (and her own if she's doing something she loves) and just ignore the vultures.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

No sad here.  My question is did she have any books out or was this going to be her first.  
I don't like Kickstarter for new authors because there is no guarantee that they will write the book.  Now there are some established indie authors I would help.  

Sidenote:  if you are gonna whine because someone on the Internet doesn't like you, Do not go into a field that has critics.


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## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And this is from a previously trade published author? Did her previous publisher give her three months of living expenses to write her LAST Book and then let her keep 100% of the profits from book sales? I can't even fathom why she would have thought this was a rational request.



Unless this was different to every other kickstarter I've ever seen, the backers pay for the book. It's just a pre-order with a long lead time. Certainly comparable to a publisher's advance.




> No sad here. My question is did she have any books out or was this going to be her first. I don't like Kickstarter for new authors because there is no guarantee that they will write the book. Now there are some established indie authors I would help. Sidenote: if you are gonna whine because someone on the Internet doesn't like you, Do not go into a field that has critics.



There's an article linked in OP and through the thread. She had a series that had numbers too small for the tradpub to continue with it, but plenty big for self-publish. She just asked her fans if they wanted her to keep going. But then the internet stepped in...


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## shadowfox (Jun 22, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> No sad here. My question is did she have any books out or was this going to be her first.
> I don't like Kickstarter for new authors because there is no guarantee that they will write the book. Now there are some established indie authors I would help.
> 
> Sidenote: if you are gonna whine because someone on the Internet doesn't like you, Do not go into a field that has critics.


Er... it's a sequel, she's been traditionally published, and although this is quite a new pen name she's written 7 books under it. People would know what they're getting.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you.  I typically don't click on blog links.    
Now it makes more sense I guess.


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## Maria Romana (Jun 7, 2010)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Honestly, I've never liked Kickstarter for writers. I've funded a few friends of mine, but the whole concept has always rubbed me a little wrong. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I've always believed that the risk falls upon me for that initial investment on a self-pub project. If it pays off, great. It gets reinvested in the next one. If not, then it's up to me to determine if I want to take on more risk until it does.


I feel the same way--just not comfortable with it. I wouldn't ask others to fund my next book in advance any more than I would stand out on a street corner and beg for change. But if an author or artist wants to use Kickstarter this way--as a means of publicly seeking patronage--I wouldn't begrudge him the chance, but let's be honest and say that's what we're doing. As Julie mentioned, a book is not a community project, like "Reading Rainbow" or a pet shelter. It's a product that's sold for profit, and I believe that's why this author got so much blow-back. She admitted she was seeking patronage by mentioning her living expenses, and a lot of people were offended by that.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

I have funded a few Kickstarters for small businesses and product launches, and I don't necessarily have a problem with an author using it to fund a specific book if there is something about the book that would benefit the public in some way. But I think it would have to have a value beyond simply an entertainment value before I would fund it. A YA novel, or any novel for that matter, would not be enough to persuade me to invest my money in it. 

That said, I wouldn't chastise an author for asking, either. I'd just skip that campaign and move on to one that resonates with me.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Maria Romana said:


> I feel the same way--just not comfortable with it. I wouldn't ask others to fund my next book in advance any more than I would stand out on a street corner and beg for change. But if an author or artist wants to use Kickstarter this way--as a means of publicly seeking patronage--I wouldn't begrudge him the chance, but let's be honest and say that's what we're doing. As Julie mentioned, a book is not a community project, like "Reading Rainbow" or a pet shelter. It's a product that's sold for profit, and I believe that's why this author got so much blow-back. She admitted she was seeking patronage by mentioning her living expenses, and a lot of people were offended by that.


Yeah, I'd say that's why Patreon exists...although, that's another service I don't see myself using anytime soon.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

shadowfox said:


> Er... it's a sequel, she's been traditionally published, and although this is quite a new pen name she's written 7 books under it. People would know what they're getting.


So, she wanted to be indie with the margin indies make on a book, and have an advance too? Or am I being too harsh?


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

I think there's a huge misunderstanding of what Kickstarter is for here. It's not designed for backing "community projects." It's to "kickstart" artistic endeavors, products, films, games, etc. On the site, on the "What is Kickstarter" page, the very first thing it says is "Kickstarter is a new way to fund CREATIVE projects." If a book isn't a creative project, then I don't know what it is. Some people on here take the idea of book writing as a business to an extreme, to the point that anyone funding that business is offensive (as if people don't get funding from glorified thieves banks and VCs for their businesses). But really it's no different than any of those other artistic ventures: filmmaking, game designing, comic book, etc.


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## Avis Black (Jun 12, 2012)

If you're the sort of person inclined to give money to authors via a Kickstarter project, the best thing you could do is go buy all the books by that author and then give them positive ratings/reviews, or mention that author in your blog.  Not only will it help the writer without any of the ethical conflicts unique to Kickstarter, it will help give the books a better ranking visibility, which in turn can cause other potential readers to become aware of those books, which may result in even more sales.  It's a type of altruism that can snowball in its effects because you're generating the word-of-mouth that can really get sales going.  It's ultimately better for the author in the long-term. Even if you, as another author, feel you can't rate and review those books on Amazon without ethical conflict, you can at least mention them in your blog.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

artofstu said:


> I think there's a huge misunderstanding of what Kickstarter is for here. It's not designed for backing "community projects." It's to "kickstart" artistic endeavors, products, films, games, etc. On the site, on the "What is Kickstarter" page, the very first thing it says is "Kickstarter is a new way to fund CREATIVE projects." If a book isn't a creative project, then I don't know what it is. Some people on here take the idea of book writing as a business to an extreme, to the point that anyone funding that business is offensive (as if people don't get funding from glorified thieves banks and VCs for their businesses). But really it's no different than any of those other artistic ventures: filmmaking, game designing, comic book, etc.


Yes, but they are also no guarantees on Kickstarter either. One should be realistic in their ask. i.e. I see someone asking for $50k to fund prototyping of their new geothermal rocket board, I might take a look. $50k to fund their novel and their lifestyle while they write it? Probably not so much.


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## Becca Fanning (May 17, 2014)

artofstu said:


> I think there's a huge misunderstanding of what Kickstarter is for here. It's not designed for backing "community projects." It's to "kickstart" artistic endeavors, products, films, games, etc. On the site, on the "What is Kickstarter" page, the very first thing it says is "Kickstarter is a new way to fund CREATIVE projects." If a book isn't a creative project, then I don't know what it is. Some people on here take the idea of book writing as a business to an extreme, to the point that anyone funding that business is offensive (as if people don't get funding from glorified thieves banks and VCs for their businesses). But really it's no different than any of those other artistic ventures: filmmaking, game designing, comic book, etc.


Except that those other artistic endeavors tend to involve large amounts of people and capital. A book is at the very other end of that spectrum. Most self-published indie authors do everything themselves, except maybe cover art. And basic covers run $5-$40. This is not an apt analogy to something like a film, which can employ 5-50 people and take months. There's nothing wrong with writing around your day job, like people have been doing for centuries.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> Yes, but they are also no guarantees on Kickstarter either. One should be realistic in their ask. i.e. I see someone asking for $50k to fund prototyping of their new geothermal rocket board, I might take a look. $50k to fund their novel and their lifestyle while they write it? Probably not so much.


I don't disagree with that. But there is one guarantee with Kickstarter: if the person doesn't reach their "unrealistic" goal, they don't get any money. Nobody's out anything.

But Kickstarter isn't for people to fund your living expenses while you work on something. In fact, I thought they had rules that stated the money couldn't be used for any such thing, only production costs (though cost of backer rewards is allowed). Actually, I think this author's campaign would have been pulled by KS or she would have been forced to modify it. People were right to get mad that she asked for living expenses. That's not what KS is for.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If I had quit every time someone got mad at me for doing me I would have nothing right now. 

Who cares if people get mad at you on a blog or a couple of blogs or comments? Sheesh. I was straight up tortured in school by my bullies, and I mean Madeline Reynolds CUT MY HAIR in 7th grade in Advanced English because my grade killed the curve on a test. Clearly, I'm STILL not over it. You want to say mean things about me on the Internet? Oh. Darn. 

I don't have sympathy. There's plenty of records around here of sooooo many people having their character and businesses dragged through the mud in our little corner of the web universe and it doesn't make one lick of difference to the author's sales. I WISH a few particular authors that I feel did me and others "dirty" would get their just desserts, but we don't live in a novel, we live in the real world. 

Prima donna authors. But who knows, in this case it's probably for the best. Because if you can't handle people having issue with your Kickstarter, you're going to faint when you read your first 1-star reviews.


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

I've never funded a Kickstarter for a book, but I have for several video games, and the creators' living expenses are almost always assumed to be part of what you're paying for. Kickstarter isn't an investment, it's a way to give support to people whose creative vision you want to help come to fruition. There's nothing wrong with living expenses being included in part of that. Indeed, I would be more surprised if they _weren't_ the bulk of what money was being raised for.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

Becca Fanning said:


> Except that those other artistic endeavors tend to involve large amounts of people and capital. A book is at the very other end of that spectrum. Most self-published indie authors do everything themselves, except maybe cover art. And basic covers run $5-$40. This is not an apt analogy to something like a film, which can employ 5-50 people and take months. There's nothing wrong with writing around your day job, like people have been doing for centuries.


Really? Decent editors are expensive. And if you want a good book cover (in my opinion) in order to, I don't know, _compete_ and be noticed in the market, then $5-$40 isn't going to cut it. Yes, there's nothing wrong with people doing stuff "around your day job" but there's also nothing wrong with people funding artistic endeavors. _Like they've been doing for centuries_. Shakespeare, Michelangelo, [insert the name of any artist through history], I'm looking at you.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

abishop said:


> I've never funded a Kickstarter for a book, but I have for several video games, and the creators' living expenses are almost always assumed to be part of what you're paying for. Kickstarter isn't an investment, it's a way to give support to people whose creative vision you want to help come to fruition. There's nothing wrong with living expenses being included in part of that. Indeed, I would be more surprised if they _weren't_ the bulk of what money was being raised for.


No, I'd say you're describing Patreon - not Kickstarter. I've never backed a Kickstarter for a creative vision. I have backed kickstarters because I think a product is cool or marketable and then usually at a level where my investment gets me one.

Also implied living expenses is a far different thing than outright stating it. The ones I've funded might have used the funds to take a trip to Tahiti for all I know, but they didn't come right out and say it.


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> No, I'd say you're describing Patreon - not Kickstarter. I've never backed a Kickstarter for a creative vision.


Kickstarter itself disagrees:



> *Backing a project is more than just giving someone money.*
> 
> It's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world. People rally around their friends' projects, fans support people they admire, and others simply come to Kickstarter to be inspired by new ideas.


 (emphasis in original)

They describe it as being like patronage (and patronage certainly covered artists' living expenses):



> *Creative works were funded this way for centuries.*
> 
> Mozart, Beethoven, Whitman, Twain, and other artists funded works in similar ways - not just with help from large patrons, but by soliciting money from smaller patrons, often called subscribers. In return for their support, these subscribers might have received an early copy or special edition of the work. Kickstarter is an extension of this model, turbocharged by the web.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Why did she have a kickstarter campaign anyway?

All us gits have to write for free before we get paid. Why should she be different. Authors are a dime a dozen. Unless you are Stephen King and it's going to be your last book and some how someone has convinced him to write ONE more book before he quits. Even then I'm not sure I would do it.

Kickstarter campaigns are good for lots of things ( graphic novels which are expensive ) but not a novel. Sit your ass in the chair and write, you'll get paid when you put it out there.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If I had quit every time someone got mad at me for doing me I would have nothing right now.
> 
> Who cares if people get mad at you on a blog or a couple of blogs or comments? Sheesh. I was straight up tortured in school by my bullies, and I mean Madeline Reynolds CUT MY HAIR in 7th grade in Advanced English because my grade killed the curve on a test. Clearly, I'm STILL not over it. You want to say mean things about me on the Internet? Oh. Darn.
> 
> ...


LOL 1 -star reviews.


Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If I had quit every time someone got mad at me for doing me I would have nothing right now.
> 
> Who cares if people get mad at you on a blog or a couple of blogs or comments? Sheesh. I was straight up tortured in school by my bullies, and I mean Madeline Reynolds CUT MY HAIR in 7th grade in Advanced English because my grade killed the curve on a test. Clearly, I'm STILL not over it. You want to say mean things about me on the Internet? Oh. Darn.
> 
> ...


Another reason I love Liz, you are straight on the nose.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> But the whole point of crowdsourcing is that the project is something to benefit the community, not just finance the author's business so they have no risk. There is nothing to stop her from writing her book other than the fact that she wanted other people to pay her bills for her in the process. She can easily do what thousands of authors do: find the time and make due.


+100


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

kalel said:


> Why did she have a kickstarter campaign anyway?
> 
> All us gits have to write for free before we get paid. Why should she be different. Authors are a dime a dozen. Unless you are Stephen King and it's going to be your last book and some how someone has convinced him to write ONE more book before he quits. Even then I'm not sure I would do it.
> 
> Kickstarter campaigns are good for lots of things ( graphic novels which are expensive ) but not a novel. Sit your ass in the chair and write, you'll get paid when you put it out there.


Wrong. Kickstarter is for novels as well. That's why there's a publishing category.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> +100


I would argue that books _are_ a benefit to the community. Books promote literacy, which is good for the community as a whole.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

kalel said:


> Kickstarter campaigns are good for lots of things ( graphic novels which are expensive ) but not a novel. Sit your ass in the chair and write, you'll get paid when you put it out there.


This. And films. And creative things that require big bucks up-front. Writing doesn't cost money. You get a day job to pay the bills if you need to and get on with it.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

DebBennett said:


> This. And films. And creative things that require big bucks up-front. Writing doesn't cost money. You get a day job to pay the bills if you need to and get on with it.


Writing doesn't cost money, but editing that writing and creating a finished product that people will be attracted to does. Nowhere on KS does it say that it's only for big projects. Just the opposite. Its for any project that people might want to see come to fruition.

People who think their way of doing things is the only way need to check themselves.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

KS isn't like an advance; the project doesn't have to earn it out. It isn't like an investment; the investor gets no piece of the action. It's not even like charity; you can't write it off.

If it's like anything from times past, I'd call it patronage wherein the well-to-do fund the artist's expenses with nothing expected in return except enjoyment of the art and prestige for patronage.

I prefer the old ways. Work extra hours, do without, neglect your life, and write the book on spec.

Or bump off your rich uncle.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I guess I don't understand that ire that some have about the reasons someone sets up a Kickstarter campaign.  If you don't think KS should be used that way, don't use it that way and don't give money to someone who does.  Otherwise, why care?

As far as mean people, my attitude is kind of like Elizabeth's.  Someone says something mean to me on the Internet?  Boo-hoo.  Unless it's one of my family and friends... *shrug*  Or Ann.    I do get kind of tired of it every now and then, but it only last a couple hours.

Betsy


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> So, she wanted to be indie with the margin indies make on a book, and have an advance too? Or am I being too harsh?


Yeah, this sense of entitlement is why she got such a bad reception.

I don't think she realized that indies work day jobs until the books pay the living expenses. It doesn't sound like she realizes that even now.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

She comes from traditional publishing and because of that seems to expect that an author needs an 'advance' to complete a project - that it's the only way possible to complete a book. Most of us have had to fit writing into the nooks and crannies of our lives so this attitude doesn't make sense to us.

It's a nice idea and I wouldn't mind someone funding my living expenses, but it shows ignorance of the indie publishing world in general. Except for die hard fans, not many are willing to finance what comes across on paper as entitlement. Even if Kickstarter is set up for just that.

That said, what did she have to lose by leaving it up there? Maybe the money would have come through and then hurray for her, lucky girl! 

It sounds like she's feeling just a little banged up at the moment - and never underestimate this 'failure' of vision on her part compounding her original feeling of rejection and loss from losing her trad pub contract.......

It sounds like she's a great writer. Hopefully she will bounce back and maybe come on over here to kboards and get some help navigating this crazy process!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

artofstu said:


> I would argue that books _are_ a benefit to the community. Books promote literacy, which is good for the community as a whole.


Books in themselves are benefits to the community but how is this particular book a benefit? 
Now I could write and publish a book for absolutely nothing. Or I could spend thousands.

Personal opinion, her quitting because some people didn't like what she was doing, makes me not want to help her at all. In any form.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Books in themselves are benefits to the community but how is this particular book a benefit?
> Now I could write and publish a book for absolutely nothing. Or I could spend thousands.
> 
> Personal opinion, her quitting because some people didn't like what she was doing, makes me not want to help her at all. In any form.


Maybe it's a benefit purely because her fans would enjoy it. Maybe it's a benefit because something creative is now in the world that wasn't there before (instead of the oceans of ugly that fill it on a daily basis).

Now, not liking what she's doing or her attitude about it, I can certainly understand that.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

artofstu said:


> And if you want a good book cover (in my opinion) in order to, I don't know, _compete_ and be noticed in the market, then $5-$40 isn't going to cut it.


It's way, way off topic, but I disagree with this. I've seen a lot of pre-made book covers selling for under $40 that are every bit as good as covers in the top 100 lists. Variable definitions of 'good' of course.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> It's way, way off topic, but I disagree with this. I've seen a lot of pre-made book covers selling for under $40 that are every bit as good as covers in the top 100 lists. Variable definitions of 'good' of course.


I haven't.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

artofstu said:


> I haven't.


How do you know how much any given cover cost? Do you have access to ALL authors costs? 
I know some authors that make their own covers. They look as good as the high end ones.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> How do you know how much any given cover cost? Do you have access to ALL authors costs?
> I know some authors that make their own covers. They look as good as the high end ones.


Designers that make their own covers don't factor into this. Their covers might have cost them very little because they have the skills to make a good cover. That doesn't mean the _value_ of their cover isn't $200-$1000. If there's a designer who can sell their covers for that much but only charges $40, please let me know. I will hire them tomorrow.

All I know is the covers I've seen on sites that sell them, which say how much they cost. And I've never seen one I thought was as good as the higher end covers.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

artofstu said:


> I haven't.


I've seen some gorgeous covers on this board where the author said they come from Fiverr. I've seen other covers that were homemade that I loved. I've seen other covers where the author said they paid good money and I would say they looked amateurish.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

I come from a software development background, so for me Kickstarter for writers is a no go.

Kickstarter should be for projects that are impossible to launch from an individual. But past that, a game is expected to have a demo complete to get funding. That's means weeks or months of work. It's about showing the potential of something and selling it. Kickstarter is not an income stream. I can understand some making that mistake - some may get lucky but others will feel the wrath. 

If she enjoys writing, I would say that she should write anyway. She asserted that she would sell thousands within weeks, which would put her into profit, so why not pursue the path if she wants it?


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> I've seen some gorgeous covers on this board where the author said they come from Fiverr. I've seen other covers that were homemade that I loved. I've seen other covers where the author said they paid good money and I would say they looked amateurish.


Please read my above post.

I would love to see actual examples of a cover that cost $40 that people think is as good as trad published books (and I'm not talking about the odd trad pubbed book that somehow had a weird design concept). I'd almost be willing to bet I could find problems with it.

But hey, I could be wrong, and I welcome the opportunity to find a designer who charges $40 who can tussle with the big boys. I have a big list of designers I like in my bookmarks. They all charge top dollar.

But this is getting off topic. Good design work costs good money. Yes, you can do it for cheap, but if there's a way they don't have to (i.e. Kickstarter), then they can absolutely use that tool to accomplish the task. And people don't have the right to judge them just because they wouldn't do it that way. In my opinion.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

Domino Finn said:


> I come from a software development background, so for me Kickstarter for writers is a no go.
> 
> Kickstarter should be for projects that are impossible to launch from an individual. But past that, a game is expected to have a demo complete to get funding. That's means weeks or months of work. It's about showing the potential of something and selling it. Kickstarter is not an income stream. I can understand some making that mistake - some may get lucky but others will feel the wrath.
> 
> If she enjoys writing, I would say that she should write anyway. She asserted that she would sell thousands within weeks, which would put her into profit, so why not pursue the path if she wants it?


Kickstarter disagrees with you. At least about what kinds of projects it exists for. Sure, it's not meant to be an income stream, as you say. How much did you pay for those covers, Domino. If I remember correctly who your designer was, he didn't come cheap. Not everyone has that kind of scratch lying around. And even having a day job doesn't mean they could afford that level of design work.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

All I can say is:
As an author, I believe in paying for my own work. I don't expect (or want) someone else to pay for me to lounge around. I believe in a work ethic. Get a job and write around it. I don't like entitlement - and that's what this feels like. If someone gives it to you, it just proves you aren't willing to work for it. Why would I want to reward someone who doesn't want to work for it?
As a reader, I find it insulting for an author to be begging for money for something they may or may not write - like they're holding the work hostage for fans. Grow up. Either write it or don't. I won't buy anything that I know is crowd sourced. It just bugs me.
And, as a human being, if you can't take people talking bad about you, get out of a business where you're trying to entice fans. Is this suddenly middle school?


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

YodaRead said:


> All I can say is:
> As an author, I believe in paying for my own work. I don't expect (or want) someone else to pay for me to lounge around. I believe in a work ethic. Get a job and write around it. I don't like entitlement - and that's what this feels like. If someone gives it to you, it just proves you aren't willing to work for it. Why would I want to reward someone who doesn't want to work for it?
> As a reader, I find it insulting for an author to be begging for money for something they may or may not write - like they're holding the work hostage for fans. Grow up. Either write it or don't. I won't buy anything that I know is crowd sourced. It just bugs me.
> And, as a human being, if you can't take people talking bad about you, get out of a business where you're trying to entice fans. Is this suddenly middle school?


Not willing to work for it? Writing a book isn't working? It takes a lot of work to pull that off, which is why so many people never do it. How is using Kickstarter being entitled?


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

The author has been thrown into a strange new world that she hasn't learned to navigate yet. Since she has found criticism so difficult to handle, I don't know that she ever will.

But we all had to learn somewhere. She just took a public smackdown on Kickstarter. Most of us get smacked down a little more privately.

And if her Kickstarter campaign had worked, I think we would all be talking about it here and making plans to include it in our writing strategies! So we shouldn't throw too many stones.


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm very confused about the disdain in this thread for someone's way of going about publishing a book.  How is starting a Kickstarter an entitled thing to do?  It just sounds like she wanted to fund her book (and by extension her personal expenses while her life revolved around said book).  It's just another way of going about creating a writing career.  If you didn't get help and are mad at the author for asking, well, I throw your words back at you: Grow up.  Boo hoo.  Get off your high-horses.  You don't like it?  Do what somebody else suggested and not fund it.  Stop trying to trample someone down because they decided to go a different route than you did as if yours is the One True Road.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

artofstu said:


> Not willing to work for it? Writing a book isn't working? It takes a lot of work to pull that off, which is why so many people never do it. How is using Kickstarter being entitled?


Willing to work for it is paying your own bills with a job and then fighting to do your dream on top of it. You are responsible for you. Get a job, pay your bills, build your dream. Don't ask others to do it for you. How many people on here write their own books and work? Writing a book is work, but it's not work others should have to sustain you for. Personal responsibility is big in my world. Be responsible for yourself. Don't rely on others to work and pay for you not to work. If you don't want to work, don't work. If you want others to foot the bill so you don't have to work, that's entitlement. We have a whole generation of it these days. If you need money for editing, suck it up and get a job.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Error404 said:


> I'm very confused about the disdain in this thread for someone's way of going about publishing a book. How is starting a Kickstarter an entitled thing to do? It just sounds like she wanted to fund her book (and by extension her personal expenses while her life revolved around said book). It's just another way of going about creating a writing career. If you didn't get help and are mad at the author for asking, well, I throw your words back at you: Grow up. Boo hoo. Get off your high-horses. You don't like it? Do what somebody else suggested and not fund it. Stop trying to trample someone down because they decided to go a different route than you did as if yours is the One True Road.


We are entitled to our opinions, are we not? I think it's lazy and entitled, too. "I know people get jobs, but I don't want to. Give me money." That's what I hear. Meh.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Monique said:


> We are entitled to our opinions, are we not? I think it's lazy and entitled, too. "I know people get jobs, but I don't want to. Give me money." That's what I hear. Meh.


That's exactly what I hear, too. I was raised with a tremendous work ethic by hard-working people who thrived because they were willing to work. I have no tolerance for people who don't want to work and then want others to give them money.


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## Darren Kirby (Oct 6, 2014)

I've read through all of these comments here, and I can understand and appreciate all of these viewpoints, both for and against. I'm generalizing here, but it sounds to me like many folks commenting have a preconceived notion of what Kickstarter _should_ be for, and in the case of books it runs afoul of those notions. I'm in the (very) small camp with ArtofStu - there is nothing wrong with a writer using Kickstarter to help launch their book, just like there isn't anything wrong with clarinetist using Kickstarter to help put out a CD of their own music, or putting out a new board game. Any of these can be done outside of Kickstarter using the currently available technology, but there is the added benefit of many eyes getting to see the idea. In a sense, this is no different than authors using Amazon to sell books - they could do it themselves nearly as easily (nearly, not exactly) with the currently available technology, but the benefit of many eyes getting to see our work makes it a worthwhile outlet. These are all creative endeavors, and the beauty of Kickstarter is that not only does it allow for new ideas to surface and potentially get made, but it also allows people to say "Nah, that's not interesting to me" and elect to not fund it.

I think ArtofStu makes valid points. We often don't like to hear about ways to do things differently that we've been doing our own way for a while, or in the way that we believe is 'acceptable', but there is more than 1 way to get things done, and maybe there is a lesson for all of us in this story about how we think about getting books out into the marketplace.


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## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

Darren Kirby said:


> I've read through all of these comments here, and I can understand and appreciate all of these viewpoints, both for and against. I'm generalizing here, but it sounds to me like many folks commenting have a preconceived notion of what Kickstarter _should_ be for, and in the case of books it runs afoul of those notions. I'm in the (very) small camp with ArtofStu - there is nothing wrong with a writer using Kickstarter to help launch their book, just like there isn't anything wrong with clarinetist using Kickstarter to help put out a CD of their own music, or putting out a new board game. Any of these can be done outside of Kickstarter using the currently available technology, but there is the added benefit of many eyes getting to see the idea. In a sense, this is no different than authors using Amazon to sell books - they could do it themselves nearly as easily (nearly, not exactly) with the currently available technology, but the benefit of many eyes getting to see our work makes it a worthwhile outlet. These are all creative endeavors, and the beauty of Kickstarter is that not only does it allow for new ideas to surface and potentially get made, but it also allows people to say "Nah, that's not interesting to me" and elect to not fund it.
> 
> I think ArtofStu makes valid points. We often don't like to hear about ways to do things differently that we've been doing our own way for a while, or in the way that we believe is 'acceptable', but there is more than 1 way to get things done, and maybe there is a lesson for all of us in this story about how we think about getting books out into the marketplace.


+1000

_Edited to remove response to deleted post. --Betsy_


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

There were a few other things that she had in her kickstarter that caused anger. One of them I heard about was: If you contributed $20 she would give you an interview for your blog about her book ... yeah, so you would pay HER to give HER BOOK publicity. Headdesk.  Book bloggers found that outrageous and tone deaf.  

So it wasn't simply just her asking for her living expenses to be covered (though honestly why would you ask readers to do this when you anticipate selling at least 2k copies in a month or two?!?  I mean just write the book on your free time and then publish it).

I both admire and dislike kickstarters. Admire b/c that's so awesome that you've got a concept people are willing to fund!  Dislike b/c like some other people have pointed out (at least in regards to books), you're asking someone to fund your dream which could be accomplished anyways without outside support.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I say, if you can get it, if you've got people willing to pay you to write a book (that you alone will ultimately profit from) go for it. I have zero issues with using a Kickstarter campaign to fund writing.

But I find threatening the world with never writing in YA again (_they'll be sorry now!_) to be a bit of calculated attention-seeking or flat out immaturity.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

I don't really feel sad or sick about this.  There are ten billions of writers right here on Kboards who could spin similar tales of woe...


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

YodaRead said:


> All I can say is:
> As an author, I believe in paying for my own work. I don't expect (or want) someone else to pay for me to lounge around. I believe in a work ethic. Get a job and write around it. I don't like entitlement - and that's what this feels like. If someone gives it to you, it just proves you aren't willing to work for it. Why would I want to reward someone who doesn't want to work for it?
> As a reader, I find it insulting for an author to be begging for money for something they may or may not write - like they're holding the work hostage for fans. Grow up. Either write it or don't. I won't buy anything that I know is crowd sourced. It just bugs me.
> And, as a human being, if you can't take people talking bad about you, get out of a business where you're trying to entice fans. Is this suddenly middle school?


Amen! Amen! AMEN!!!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I understand that this is apparently a highly-charged issue for some, but let's not get into applying political labels.  Posts that have done so and posts that responded to those posts have been removed.  If yours was removed and you have a question, PM me.  Or repost any bits that had nothing to do with political labels.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

My issue with this whole situation has nothing to do with Kickstarter per se. It's anyone who quits at the first sign of resistance. To be an indie the buck stops with you. If you let other people tell you you're not doing it right make you quit completely then this is really not the branch of publishing for you. It's tough. It's getting up every morning and finding validation from within. I like my kudos and head pats as much as the next person, but I'm not paralyzed or halted if I don't get them.

Kick starters have failed for many, ice seen many I don't agree with, but those professionals don't make a blog post about their feelings being hurt. In general, there is no place for my feelings were hurt so I'm giving up in business. You can be an author many ways these days, not everyone is cut out to be an indie publisher.

_Edited to remove response to deleted post. --Betsy_


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

One last thought on kickstarters in general, I've always had an assumption (that I didn't realize until I read this thread through) that kickstarters are for something that you COULDN'T fund on your own. Meaning that Skyrim game that you've got in development but without money (no matter if you work a 1000 jobs you couldn't afford to pay for it yourself) it will never get made. With a book, honestly, it can get made with or without help from other people. You can make your own covers, do your own design, work on it after the day job.  Will it be as super awesome as if you had the best book designer on it? Honestly, it COULD be.  And that's the thing.  You could do it all yourself and still have the same product on your hands to sell.  That's the underlying difference for me b/t people needing funds b/c it's simply IMPOSSIBLE to make their dream happen without them and those that ask for funds because it would be EASIER and potentially better if they got funds from people.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Betsy I was about to take that part out sorry !


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2015)

I may have read it wrong, but I understood she was a traditionally published author and has a successful pen name under which she self publishes? So she's no stranger to the indie world.

That aside, I don't think anybody got upset about her launching a kickstarter, which is absolutely her right and as already stated, there is a category for books on the kickstarter website. I believe what set people off was a certain sense of entitlement in her wording and conduct. She also wanted the money to write full time so she could finish the book in 3 months, which was her own self imposed deadline. Then came the flouncing exit, which cued more eye-rolling.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Betsy I was about to take that part out sorry !


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

How close was she to funding her book project? Was she a few days away from missing her goal and not getting the money, and maybe that's why she backed out? She doesn't address how close she was to funding/not funding when she pulled out.
I can't believe a few naysayers would make her quit. Rather, wouldn't that be a reason to continue and then say,"See? My readers want more YA fiction from me in that character's world!"

She should be keeping/starting a mailing list of all her fans, so in the future she can let them know when new releases are out.

I think Kickstarter is fine for those who can get traction. But I think writing while you have another job is the norm for most writers until you have a fan base big enough to support you. 
Blaming dropping it on naysayers is weird. Just don't listen to them. They'll always be out there, and you'll pick up more the more successful you get. That's not just in writing, but in any endeavor.

She has several traditionally published books out there, and if the money coming in from those  isn't enough to support her while she publishes a new one, then expecting to make a living while writing another is a little unrealistic.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

LisaGrace said:


> How close was she to funding her book project? Was she a few days away from missing her goal and not getting the money, and maybe that's why she backed out? She doesn't address how close she was to funding/not funding when she pulled out.
> I can't believe a few naysayers would make her quit. Rather, wouldn't that be a reason to continue and then say,"See? My readers want more YA fiction from me in that character's world!"
> 
> She should be keeping/starting a mailing list of all her fans, so in the future she can let them know when new releases are out.
> ...


I believe she only had about $500 of her $10k goal so no, she wasn't near funding it, but I don't know how long it had been going on before she took it down.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

X. Aratare said:


> I believe she only had about $500 of her $10k goal so no, she wasn't near funding it, but I don't know how long it had been going on before she took it down.


She wanted how much? Yikes.


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## anotherpage (Apr 4, 2012)

artofstu said:


> Wrong. Kickstarter is for novels as well. That's why there's a publishing category.


I'm not saying that its NOT for novels. I just think its a bit presumptious when most of the folks who are asking for support aren't people who are known. Just and honest question but why should I support you writing novels? Write one, then I will pay for it. End of story.

Now if its a graphic novel. Those things can cost thousands of dollars to create. Depends on whats being offered and what the angle is I might get behind it. But a novel. You have to be joking. Sit your bottom down and write the story, we will then pay you at the end.

I would love someone to COVER the cost of me doing nothing but writing. But that is a right that is earned not requested.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

She was actually doing a lot of apologizing in her post, not whining.

I think she felt like she'd been an idiot and had miscalculated things - enough people told her she was. 

It's the walking away from writing thing I think is more to be criticized - but I"m sure she's still smarting from losing her trad contract. She's probably feeling very hurt and vulnerable right now.

But I think blaming the YA community and calling it overall hostile just because they called her out for miscalculating her support is more miscalculation.

I say it again though, if it had worked, we'd all be rushing to do it right now!


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> She wanted how much? Yikes.


And of the $10k, only $3k was for the editing, cover, etc. while the rest after the cut from kickstarter was for her living expenses including mortgage, groceries, etc. Oh, and she has a husband who also apparently works so did she really need all that for 3 months?!? I don't know.

I'm all for artists being paid for their work. I think people believe if you "love" what you're doing that's payment enough, but that's not true. Artists should be paid for sure. I do that for my comic artists (out of my own pocket no kickstarters ...), but I think she just failed to understand how what she was asking for would come across.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I think it's shameful the way so many people here are saying she got what she deserved.  It's how it sounds to me anyway.

You don't think she had the right business strategy?  Don't support it.  Bullying on the internet (which is what it sounds like she was dealing with--not just disapproval from strangers) is NOT OK.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> She wanted how much? Yikes.


In all fairness, I've seen book kickstarters asking for more.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I am planning a kickstarter campaign for a project. It's a big project. But it's done - the writing is. The beta reading is. Everything short of professional/paid assistance (editing/design) is done. I would never think to ask people to fund my living expenses. Also, I was planning on designing it as a kind of pre-sales campaign (with some additional options for those interested). A way to get the books early, and cheaper than when they go live. 

This has been an interesting thing to see though.


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

I have a day job and write in the evenings.  I think that's a perfectly good way to go about things if your books aren't selling well enough to be your sole income.  But I'm stunned at the antagonism here towards someone who was trying a different business model out, especially on a forum where people are constantly advised to be willing to try new things and see what works.  There seems to be an element of "I suffered for my art and everyone else must too!" which I think is an unfortunate attitude.  If people are willing to support a novelist's Kickstarter, I say good for that writer for attracting an audience made up of readers who feel compelled to support them in that fashion.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Honestly, I don't know why people are so worked up about what someone else does. I really don't care as long as what people are doing isn't illegal. So what if some authors try Kickstarter or other such funding programs? It doesn't affect me.  I have my own books to worry about and my own career. I wrote my first series entirely while working at a full-time job in which I wrote for a living and part of my second series. Seriously, I was more productive when I had to work at night and on the weekends! 

I do, however, get amused whenever someone flounces off the internet in a huff because someone didn't like what they said or did or wrote. THIS IS THE INTERNET PEOPLE! Everyone has an opinion and feels empowered to voice it. If you can't take the possibility of someone disagreeing with you, then take heed of Aristotle, who said “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2015)

HSh said:


> I think it's shameful the way so many people here are saying she got what she deserved. It's how it sounds to me anyway.
> 
> You don't think she had the right business strategy? Don't support it. Bullying on the internet (which is what it sounds like she was dealing with--not just disapproval from strangers) is NOT OK.


Please. Nobody is bullying her. She wanted total strangers to pay her household expenses for three months so she could stay home and write. And then when people called her out on it, she blamed "the community" and took her ball and went home. I've seen real bullying. I've been on the receiving end of real bullying. She got called out. And yes, she should have been called out for it because she was asking people for $10,000.

When you ask people for money, they have the right to question you on it. Just as she has the right to ask for the money, I have every right to tell her why she isn't getting it. Communication is, the last time I checked, supposed to be a two-way process. What do you think a bank loan offer does when you apply for a business loan? They ask for your business plan. They want to know how you intend to pay it back. Kickstarter is a loan you don't have to pay back...of course people have the right to ask questions! That isn't bullying. That _is_ business sense. You want people to fork over that kind of money, you have an obligation to give them a reason beyond "'cause I wanna" when they ask why.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Read the original post again.



> It's my fault the Kickstarter hit people the wrong way and it's my fault that negative attention like this causes me to crumble emotionally and become incapable of doing anything but retreating.





> A community that was once a warm, welcoming place has become a place where people wait to pounce and tear at flesh the moment someone steps out of line (in their perspective). I would like the record to show, however, that I did not stalk a blogger, threaten anyone harm, or fart in public. I just asked people if they would like to participate in a project, and those people were perfectly free to say "no" and I was perfectly free to say "I'm not comfortable writing on spec for this particular audience." Perhaps that came off like a public fart to some of you, but at least you didn't have to smell it. Now I suggest we all turn our attention to more important things like...just about anything at all. Go hug a friend, read a good book, be grateful you're alive. I'm going to hug my son, quit crying, and go looking for some roller skates.


Don't be sharks circling the blood in the water, people. :_(


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

"Do what's best for you -- unless it's Kickstarter because I fundamentally misunderstand the point of that, rawr."

Yeah, she doesn't get what Kickstarter is for (hint: it's the fund the project, not you), but a lot of people here don't either and are super-aggressive in that ignorance.

Also, it's stunning to hear people condemning Kickstarter because 'you should take the business risk yourself' or similarly nonsensical ideas when *MOST BUSINESSES GET LOANS OR VENTURE CAPITAL TO START UP*.

Hardly anyone pays out of pocket to do most of the stuff that gets Kickstarted. The only difference is, no awful people who do nothing but move money around are getting rich off it. And that's a sin apparently.

I could honestly get if people were playing the hipster card and insisting an artist has to starve, but this is just demanding they starve because you don't like that someone was going to give them money for something in a non-traditional manner. It's kinda petty.

It's hilarious too, because people who scream 'free market' or 'it's what the market wants' all the time seem to have MAD RAGE for the process by which the market actually gets to decide what gets made and can actively remove economic barriers to it. Seriously where would we be if Edison hadn't scrapped together the money to steal the light bulb?

Also this:

Not long ago, the four nations lived in harmony, having recently gained the ability to fund things they liked without some marketing goon telling them they don't actually want it.

Then the Internet Attacked.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Well, this has been a remarkably eye-opening thread.

+1 everything that Vaalingrade said.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> "Do what's best for you -- unless it's Kickstarter because I fundamentally misunderstand the point of that, rawr."
> 
> Yeah, she doesn't get what Kickstarter is for (hint: it's the fund the project, not you), but a lot of people here don't either and are super-aggressive in that ignorance.
> 
> ...


No one is demanding they starve. People should do what they want. I happen to believe people should work and fund their dream on their own. I believe in a dedicated work ethic. If anyone wants to use crowdfunding, they should. I would never give to anyone who was trying to raise money for a book because it seems like a total money grab to me. That's my right. I would, however, totally give money to anyone trying to get the original V back on the air. So figure that one out.
Asking others to fund my dream so I don't have to get a day job is not something I want to support -- and it's not something I'll support in others. So, everyone do what they want. I will not be giving you any money, though. No one is arguing for banning it. People are pointing out why they wouldn't do it and why they find it slimy. There's a difference.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

People set up Kickstarter and Patroen accounts and Indiegogo and lots of other crowdfunded ventures every day. Every hour. Every minute. Some of them are writers.



> A community that was once a warm, welcoming place has become a place where people wait to pounce and tear at flesh the moment someone steps out of line (in their perspective). I would like the record to show, however, that I did not stalk a blogger, threaten anyone harm, or fart in public. I just asked people if they would like to participate in a project, and those people were perfectly free to say "no" and I was perfectly free to say "I'm not comfortable writing on spec for this particular audience." Perhaps that came off like a public fart to some of you, but at least you didn't have to smell it. Now I suggest we all turn our attention to more important things like...just about anything at all. Go hug a friend, read a good book, be grateful you're alive. I'm going to hug my son, quit crying, and go looking for some roller skates.


If everyone who got mean comments on their funding requests made sad blog posts to let everyone know how they felt when their project failed to fund, the blogosphere would be drowned in "this hurt my feelings and I'm crying" posts.

It's emotional manipulation and she's getting lots of attention in this thread. For someone who really just wants to let it go and move on... she didn't let it go. She called for the Sir Galahads of the world to come to her aid and shame the big meanies.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

YodaRead said:


> I happen to believe people should work and fund their dream on their own. I believe in a dedicated work ethic.


This is how people end up starving. 'Work ethic' is how people get other people to work until they die for delicious peanuts from the company store.

If you want to survive, you need luck, the sense to realize that the game is rigged to milk you to death, and mutual support networks.

Like Kickstarter.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

The message I get from this thread is..."Hey! Don't dare do what _*you*_ think you should do, do what _*I *_think you should do!"


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't think most of the people commenting here bothered to actually read her blog post or find out what was going on.

If you actually read her blog post what she wanted was to gauge the amount of reader interest in her continuing to write YA novels under that pen name. If the interest wasn't there - and she had legitimate concerns that it might not be - she had the option of moving to other genres like contemporary romance where she knew indies have a better success rate and leaving the series hanging where her publisher left it when they dropped her.

There's a rather significant amount of risk in attempting to indie publish a 400+ page sequel to a traditionally published novel in a genre which tends to do *much* better in print - especially hardcover - than in ebook format, not least of which is eating the editing costs on a 400 page novel which almost certainly needs both line and copyediting to put out something clean enough to get the same kinds of reviews that _Princess of Thorns_ has. (It's a very well received book that is currently sitting around the 6,000 rank in the Amazon store, for those of you who couldn't be bothered to look.)

Now, do you take that risk when writing is your job and you're responsible for bringing in $$$ for your family, or do you tell the fans, "Sorry guys, take it up with the publisher. I'm off to write erotica so I can pay the rent."? (This kind of behavior on the part of the publisher is why I've completely given up on buying books in series until the series is done, incidentally.) This is in my opinion what she should have done. From a business standpoint writing that sequel would have been far too risky for my tastes.

Instead she told the original book's fans, "I'd love to write the sequel, but it's put up or shut up time. I need some indication that you've got my back on this one before I take the plunge. It's going to take 3 months of my life to put this story together _if I work on nothing else in the meantime_, but if you guys want to club together to cover my bills for those 3 months we've got some basis for discussion." and left it up to them. Quite frankly those were the only people whose opinions mattered. No one else has any skin in this game except the author and the fans who bought the first book.

She gave the book's fans a choice. It wasn't about *her* at all.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> Also, it's stunning to hear people condemning Kickstarter because 'you should take the business risk yourself' or similarly nonsensical ideas when *MOST BUSINESSES GET LOANS OR VENTURE CAPITAL TO START UP*.


And the loans have to be paid off, and the venture capitalists get a piece of the action relative to what percentage of the total startup capital they put up.

Ten thousand bucks? Might just as well apply for a business grant.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

thesmallprint said:


> The message I get from this thread is..."Hey! Don't dare do what _*you*_ think you should do, do what _*I *_think you should do!"


Really? I thought it was. Here's what I think about what you're doing. Some of that is "it's great" and some is "that's lame." Should those who think it's lame keep their opinions to themselves? Only post if you love/agree/support?


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

thesmallprint said:


> The message I get from this thread is..."Hey! Don't dare do what _*you*_ think you should do, do what _*I *_think you should do!"


I don't think you should get that message. There have been a lot of posts critical of the author's admitted miscalculation, and a lot of posts about why people agreed with her that she miscalculated, and some interesting discussion on what Kickstarter is really for and what makes it work for some and not others. The opinions may be strong, but there has been some balance here.

Her Kickstarter campaign didn't work, that's a fact. Dissecting why and how it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way is a useful discussion. Particularly for anyone considering Kickstarter.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Monique said:


> Really? I thought it was. Here's what I think about what you're doing. Some of that is "it's great" and some is "that's lame." Should those who think it's lame keep their opinions to themselves? Only post if you love/agree/support?


I don't love, agree or support what she did, I just find it ironic she's being so roundly castigated by many who seem utterly confident in their judgement of what she should/should not have done.


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## hardnutt (Nov 19, 2010)

Al Stevens said:


> Or bump off your rich uncle.


Lol! Never had one of those. Pity. Might have managed to write that perfect murder novel . . .the one from the murderer's POV!


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Heather Hamilton-Senter said:


> I don't think you should get that message. There have been a lot of posts critical of the author's admitted miscalculation, and a lot of posts about why people agreed with her that she miscalculated, and some interesting discussion on what Kickstarter is really for and what makes it work for some and not others. The opinions may be strong, but there has been some balance here.
> 
> Her Kickstarter campaign didn't work, that's a fact. Dissecting why and how it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way is a useful discussion. Particularly for anyone considering Kickstarter.


A strong glint of irony in your first sentence.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

thesmallprint said:


> I don't love, agree or support what she did, I just find it ironic she's being so roundly castigated by many who seem utterly confident in their judgement of what she should/should not have done.


I'm not sure I understand. People have strong opinions about it. They shouldn't? Or they shouldn't express them?

I can't speak for others, but I'm fine with people having differing opinions on the subject. It's what makes it interesting. Strong opinions, strong debate. That's good.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Monique said:


> I'm not sure I understand. People have strong opinions about it. They shouldn't? Or they shouldn't express them?
> 
> I can't speak for others, but I'm fine with people having differing opinions on the subject. It's what makes it interesting. Strong opinions, strong debate. That's good.


Express away. I was simply making an observation based on my perception of the majority feeling in the thread. Others might have a different perception.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Monique said:


> I'm not sure I understand. People have strong opinions about it. They shouldn't? Or they shouldn't express them?
> 
> I can't speak for others, but I'm fine with people having differing opinions on the subject. It's what makes it interesting. Strong opinions, strong debate. That's good.


I think it's great she did a Kickstarter. I think it was awful to even suggest the reason she pulled out was because of naysayers, YA bloggers or readers. 
You can be supportive of one action and be against the other.

She simply could have stated, "I'm dropping my campaign. Thanks to those who did contribute."


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Al Stevens said:


> And the loans have to be paid off, and the venture capitalists get a piece of the action relative to what percentage of the total startup capital they put up.
> 
> Ten thousand bucks? Might just as well apply for a business grant.


Kickstarters are paid off by the rewards promised and the creation of a product you wanted to make come into being. What was your point?

See, the thing I think people here don't get is, and I'm going to do the bold CAPSLOCK thing for it:

*KICKSTARTING ISN'T BEGGING*

Stop saying it is, stop implying its is and stop making up cute little anecdotes suggesting it is. It isn't.

People don't fund projects because you're begging them, they fund them because you're doing a thing and they want that thing to get done.

I'm quite proud of the number of RPGs and board games I've helped bring into existence that no loan monkey at a greedy-ass bank wouldn't have touched.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

LisaGrace said:


> She simply could have stated, "I'm dropping my campaign. Thanks to those who did contribute."


Yeah, but if she has the fanbase to make it move, why _not_ launch an internet counter attack on the people who harassed her?


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... mounting a Kickstarter campaign for a book? _Ooof_. What are those funds supposed to cover exactly? Pencil lead?


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Ian Marks said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again... mounting a Kickstarter campaign for a book? _Ooof_. What are those funds supposed to cover exactly? Pencil lead?


Here's an example of a well-conceived and managed book kickstarter.

And another one that wasn't successfully funded (but man I wish it had).

Neither one talks about living expenses.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I am feeling catfished.

The blog link makes my eyes hurt. The image is stretched so badly it's blurry. The blog post reads like someone handled with fragile care by a publisher (the tone) who is trying to say she didn't know what she was doing with budgeting it all out and the community turned against her. 

Then the biography of the author on Amazon from Blood on the Bayou says "Stacey Jay has published in the genres of erotica, paranormal romance, middle grade, and YA, using a variety of pseudonyms. This is her second urban fantasy. She’s been a full-time mom/writer since 2005 and can't think of anything she'd rather be doing. Her former careers include theater performer, professional dancer, poorly paid C-movie actress, bartender, waiter, math tutor, and yoga instructor. She lives in California with her husband and children."

This is not a woman who lacks resources to make things work. Something about this does not add up and I'm beginning to think the "Poor me" routine was a ruse to get press. We're all sitting here talking about it.


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## Ian Marks (Jan 22, 2012)

Vaalingrade said:


> See, the thing I think people here don't get is, and I'm going to do the bold CAPSLOCK thing for it:
> 
> *KICKSTARTING ISN'T BEGGING*


Thanks for helping clarify my position for me. Of course it's begging.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, but let's not make it into something else.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Here's an example of a well-conceived and managed book kickstarter.
> 
> And another one that wasn't successfully funded (but man I wish it had).
> 
> Neither one talks about living expenses.


Neither one was to be an indie-published sequel to a traditionally published novel, either. In YA, no less, which isn't exactly a bastion of the indie publishing world.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

thesmallprint said:


> A strong glint of irony in your first sentence.


Sorry smallprint, I sometimes have a convoluted way of expressing things. I should have more accurately said that how you painted the tone of the entire thread was incorrect. You were focusing on some strong negative opinions and ignoring the other more supportive opinions which all added together give a balanced thread. Not the one-sided thread you claimed.

Less glint?


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## horrordude1973 (Sep 20, 2014)

I personally never understood kickstarters for indie books 

I get it for indie films since for a film it can cost 5000-10,000 on the low end for basic production costs. 

Books? Now I didn't see hers, but if she was asking for money to go toward living expenses, I know that is a huge pet peeve for many. Years ago during a custody fight with my ex who was dating a regstered sex offender, I did a gofundme for like a week for legal expenses. I didn't get a single dollar, but I did get an inbox full of hate mail saying what a horrible man I am for trying to take a child from her mother regardless of the circumstances.

That said, I don't agree with harrassing people who do these campaigns. if you don't want to donate, then don't donate. I'm very picky about who I donate to for these things because too many times I've seen films not get made or not getting promised perks. 

I just know when I lost my job in the beginning of 2013 and was having health issues I began to kick it into gear with my writing. For over a year we struggled, got on food stamps, I took little side gigs here and there and did whatever we could to scrape by while one car broke down, another got repoed and the replacement for the broken down car got repoed months later. Never in this time did we do or would I have gotten a penny doing a kickstarter so I could make a living while writing.

Crowdfunding IS begging. It's a different form of begging, there is nothing wrong with it per se, but it is a form of begging. When you are someone, especially someone who was published with a big NY house the perception is that you have money. Its not an accurate perception, but it is a perception.

The other thing is, I've seen kickstarters for books where people have said they needed 5000 or so for cover design and 3000 for editing. Who in the heck is doing their covers? Michelangelo??

I do many of my own covers and the ones I did pay for, even using a model and a pro photographer cost me less than $100.00. I'm fortunate I have friends and family who will edit for me for free, but in the past when I've paid, it was between 250-500. So I can't help but think some of these folks are grossly padding their numbers for what is needed.

Anyway, I put out about a book a month and do it for under $100 the majority of the time, unless there is a specific model or photographer I want who costs a bit more. But $5000 for cover design?


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Ian Marks said:


> Thanks for helping clarify my position for me. Of course it's begging.
> 
> That's not necessarily a bad thing, but let's not make it into something else.


Then literally every other method of procuring money from others by communicating with them is as well. And everyone here is begging people to buy their books.


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## horrordude1973 (Sep 20, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I am feeling catfished.
> 
> The blog link makes my eyes hurt. The image is stretched so badly it's blurry. The blog post reads like someone handled with fragile care by a publisher (the tone) who is trying to say she didn't know what she was doing with budgeting it all out and the community turned against her.
> 
> ...


now this is interesting.....


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Wait.

how does a string of low-paying jobs mean you have a ton of resources keistered?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

None of us know her personal financial situation, but as I understand it, she has a husband who works and said this, "I've been a full time writer for nearly a decade under various pen names. In the past year, I've self-published ten romance novels under yet ANOTHER pen name, all of which have sold well and have been well-received by reviewers."


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

There was no "poor me" routine.

She's been a published author since 2005. She wrote a YA epic fantasy under contract to a traditional publisher with an option for them to pick up a sequel back in 2012. Since then she's indie published in a number of other genres. She indie published 10 romances last year which are doing quite well.

When the YA epic fantasy came out this year it didn't sell enough copies to suit the publisher so they axed her contract for the sequel. The series is now officially dead.

The writer is making money from her writing in other genres. She doesn't own the rights to the first book. She can't meaningfully promote it or generate further interest in it. The genre is one that doesn't typically do well in ebook format. It's simply not worth the financial hit of taking 3 months away from writing her other books which she knows will sell to write a sequel that more than likely won't pay for the editing and cover costs. That's a business decision.

Going to the fans and giving them an option to pay her to write this sequel instead of writing other books that she's already selling isn't begging. It isn't shady. It isn't looking for attention. It's being generous to her fans. She didn't have to do this. She could have just continued her successful indie career in her other genres and left the fans hanging. This was an attempt to give them a sequel without losing a bunch of her own money in the process. It should have been a good deal for both sides - until the internet got involved.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Ok I am confused.    I understand asking the fans if they want the next book.  But, if her other books are selling well, then why does she need living expenses?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Ok I am confused. I understand asking the fans if they want the next book. But, if her other books are selling well, then why does she need living expenses?


Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't mean resources as in money, I mean resources as in skills. A resourceful person. People who work hard usually have a varied list of experiences because we do what it takes to make things work. So I don't buy the whole "I didn't know . . ." Aspect like it was naïveté that created this issue. This is an author I would interpret as "arrived" not a newbie who doesn't know about PR 101 don't make people dislike you unless it's part of your plan.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


If she were not going to actually sell the book, then that would apply here.

Some see it as giving the fans a chance to pay her for the book they want and others see that same thing as emotional blackmail and entitled begging.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Ciniasjoy that's the disconnect and why I feel like a blog with only 2 posts in all of 2014 suddenly writes something likely to cause discussion  is all a very deliberate plan.


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## D. Zollicoffer (May 14, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> There was no "poor me" routine.
> 
> She's been a published author since 2005. She wrote a YA epic fantasy under contract to a traditional publisher with an option for them to pick up a sequel back in 2012. Since then she's indie published in a number of other genres. She indie published 10 romances last year which are doing quite well.
> 
> ...


This, I don't like Kickstarters for books, but I understand what she was trying to do.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I don't mean resources as in money, I mean resources as in skills. A resourceful person. People who work hard usually have a varied list of experiences because we do what it takes to make things work. So I don't buy the whole "I didn't know . . ." Aspect like it was naïvete that created this issue. This is an author I would interpret as "arrived" not a newbie who doesn't know about PR 101 don't make people dislike you unless it's part of your plan.


It came across as just ego to me. Isn't that usually the culprit in situations like this?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


Did someone (other than your spouse) pay your bills while you were writing your book?
No, I would write it and then put it up for sale. I wouldn't ask my friends, relatives and strangers to pay my bills while I write. 
That would be like asking for a paycheck before you actually work the hours.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> Going to the fans and giving them an option to pay her to write this sequel instead of writing other books that she's already selling isn't begging. It isn't shady. It isn't looking for attention. It's being generous to her fans. She didn't have to do this. She could have just continued her successful indie career in her other genres and left the fans hanging. This was an attempt to give them a sequel without losing a bunch of her own money in the process. It should have been a good deal for both sides - until the internet got involved.


While I wouldn't call it shady, I'm not quite sure it falls under the category of generous either. "Pay me in advance, living expenses too, and I'll write this sequel." doesn't exactly scream height of altruism to me.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I don't mean resources as in money, I mean resources as in skills. A resourceful person. People who work hard usually have a varied list of experiences because we do what it takes to make things work. So I don't buy the whole "I didn't know . . ." Aspect like it was naïvete that created this issue. This is an author I would interpret as "arrived" not a newbie who doesn't know about PR 101 don't make people dislike you unless it's part of your plan.


She was trad pubbed before. She never had to put up with all the BS we do because there were other people dealing with it.

Her experience on the internet was probably nothing but her fans kissing her butt, so when the internet decided to show her that it was also full of jerks, it shocked and hurt her.

And now I'm going to have to Kickstart SIMaS out of spite.

Edit: By which I mean 'spite' is actually going to be part of the 'Why Should I Fund This' header.


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## LondonCalling (Dec 19, 2014)

I don't personally care who is on Kickstarter or why, but having a flounce because of criticism reminds me more of middle school than a professional author. Now I'll remember her name, but not necessarily for a good reason.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I never had an issue about the kickstarter Vaal. It was the "I quit" sentiment. The world doesn't need more quitters.  in other news, Booktrope is taking submissions. Perhaps she ought to try there. Friends of mine have been very satisfied publishing with them.


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

I have mixed feelings about this whole subject. I'm one of the old dinosaurs that started writing in 1971 and wrote through many demanding day jobs while I raised my family and helped my older relatives. It took me 12 years to get that first book published in 1984 and then the other 21 novels after that until today. I remember a time, when I was exhausted and hopeless after many books and my NY publisher (Zebra) dumped my 8th novel in 1994 six weeks before it was to go to the shelves (I had covers, final edited and everything)  because they claimed my books weren't selling enough. It broke my heart...but I never stopped writing. Never. I also recall a time when more than anything in the world I wanted and thought, "If I could just be given or find $600 a month to help pay my bills and keep food on the table I COULD WRITE MY BOOKS ALL DAY, WRITE BETTER, AND WRITE MORE OF THEM. Instead of going to work all day and writing every evening as tired as I was."  But in the 1970's -1990's there was no way. No Kickstarter, no help for the struggling writer. You starved and wrote your books and dreamed...  I was trapped writing for pennies but I still had to make a living so I worked a real job for many, many years. Same thing has happened recently with KU. I started self-publishing in 2012 and thought I was in heaven. I actually made good money for the FIRST time in my life for two years, then KU slashed my profits and I'm back to writing hard, living lean, and hoping my next book or books will make me more. That's the gamble we writers have ALWAYS had to take. Nothing is promised us. We write because we can't stop writing, money or no money. I wish you luck, Stacie, because it sounds as if you're a really good writer but nothing in this career, this life is guaranteed. Nothing is easy. And if you're a true writer nothing will ever make you give up or stop writing. I know I haven't. I think this is a sore spot to many writers who have done it the hard way. We wonder: if we had to do it the hard way why not you? Keep writing Stacie whenever and wherever you can.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2015)

I have nothing against her asking for money on Kickstarter. I have no issue with people being angry about it. What I find interesting is that she says he had a large fanbase for the series and still she wasn't funded. I think that's a lesson for all of us. No one is waiting for our little books. There is so much choice for your readers to read someone else's books and never come back.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I never had an issue about the kickstarter Vaal. It was the "I quit" sentiment. The world doesn't need more quitters.  in other news, Booktrope is taking submissions. Perhaps she ought to try there. Friends of mine have been very satisfied publishing with them.


She didn't "quit." She said if people were going to be jerks about the kickstarter she was just going to go back to publishing her indie romance novels under her other pen names. I don't blame her. She was already going to be cranking out a 400 page novel for essentially nothing. Why should she have to put up with a bunch of internet drama, snark, and attitude on top of that? Life's too short.


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## LondonCalling (Dec 19, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> She was already going to be cranking out a 400 page novel for essentially nothing.


But that's kind of what writers (and artists in general) do. There's no guarantee of payment unless you find a fan base. If Kickstarter works for someone, fantastic, but most writers would not be able to be funded through Kickstarter. Too many of us would crowd the market.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Make a preorder. Take 90 days to get the book written and done or have a draft first. Second the book goes for sale you get the money as part of that month's royalties. Easiest way to test if the fan base will support it. If you don't get enough money, release it, take your losses and move on and the internet will still love you. 

We all work for free on our next project. that's the point. I am six months in on a reboot and only now getting to where good profit is coming in because I have to keep a kitty to always have funds for two more projects because that's how the cycle goes. Two months go by before I see a penny on a project I release this month so I have to keep reserves. 

It's not rocket science. And this where the whole "I don't want to write for free " grates because on this planet that's what you do unless you have an advance from a publisher. The writing has been on the wall for a long time, I am empathetic that things changed for her that sucks. But it happens. To all of us.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Had she said my publisher dumped me, if you want the sequel will you pay for it in advance she might have had better luck.
Plain, simple and to the point.


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Alexandra Little said:


> But that's kind of what writers (and artists in general) do. There's no guarantee of payment unless you find a fan base. If Kickstarter works for someone, fantastic, but most writers would not be able to be funded through Kickstarter. Too many of us would crowd the market.


All publishing is a gamble, but there are times when the odds of winning are so low that it's simply not worth spinning the wheel.

In this case she already knew that potential sales were going to be small because this was a sequel to a book that didn't have a huge number of sales itself, and since she didn't own the rights to the original book she couldn't do anything meaningful to promote it to increase the fan base. The book is effectively dead, abandoned by the publisher. So

Sales of book #1 = A (which from her kickstarter page were apparently a few thousand)

Sales of book #2 = B

And since it's a sequel, it's a given that B < A.

B = A - (people who didn't like book 1) - (people who only shop in bookstores) - (people who only buy dead tree versions ) - (etc.)

Since this is YA, the numbers being subtracted there are significant. It's not like this book had some miraculous chance at becoming a breakout hit. That simply wasn't going to happen. She already knew she wasn't going to move more than a few thousand copies at best.

Where's the upside in that? Why knock yourself out writing a book for 3 months that is basically doomed out of the gate when you know you can spend those 3 months writing 3 romance novels that will sell more copies? From a business perspective it's an extremely stupid risk. You're going to throw away 3 months of your time and probably go deep in the hole on editing and cover costs for a 400 page epic fantasy.

With the kickstarter, she was already giving away a copy of the book to anyone who donated at the $10 level. Those were all effectively lost sales. So now you've got

B = A - (people who didn't like book 1) - (people who only shop in bookstores) - (people who only buy dead tree versions ) - (people who contributed $10 or more to the kickstarter)

If you take out cost of living expenses that pays for editing and cover design, but that doesn't leave just a whole lot left over to pay for the three months she spent writing and making editorial changes. At most a few thousand dollars.

How much are 3 months of your time worth? Mine are worth a lot more than the $7000 she asked for.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Had she said my publisher dumped me, if you want the sequel will you pay for it in advance she might have had better luck.
> Plain, simple and to the point.


She still had a non-zero chance of being harassed into cancelling it anyway because of her great crime of being a woman on the internet though, sadly.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


Yes, you are confused. Indies write novels and don't get a penny for them for at least 60 days after they go on sale. We write them because we love to write and we want to sell them and make money. If we sell enough, and have a backlist, we might just be able to live off the proceeds and pay our way while we write the next novel. No one pays us to write a novel. We support ourselves through our book sales or through other means, like jobs or the like.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


I bet a lot of people here could answer that question. It probably deserves its own thread.

The corollary is, Why would you spend three months writing a novel you don't think will be good enough to sell?


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Vaalingrade said:


> She still had a non-zero chance of being harassed into cancelling it anyway because of her great crime of being a woman on the internet though, sadly.


Okay, what? Where is the evidence that her being a woman had anything to do with anything?


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> She still had a non-zero chance of being harassed into cancelling it anyway because of her great crime of being a woman on the internet though, sadly.


Wha...

I suspect she was harassed because of the content and tone of her Kickstarter campaign and not because she is a woman. The fact she picked up her toys and went home suggests that she is a bit too sensitive for the big wide world of the internet and publishing.

I know of at least one other author who did a similar Kickstarter, contacting authors through Facebook and asking them for support. I know that quite a number of author friends were very upset, and suspected that the whole thing was a scam because of her inflated numbers for cover art, blog tours, etc. She did not request $$ for living expenses. This author had several other books out and claimed she wanted help to "do it right". I didn't really care. More power to her if she could get funders, but I thought she was wrong to approach established authors and ask them directly for money. Hit up your fan base, hit up your friends. Don't hit up authors who don't know you from a hole in the ground.

Her project was eventually funded. She has the book currently on pre-order. Her other books are not selling well nor do they have very good ratings or many reviews but she wrote mostly erotic shorts and novellas.

Anyway, I have nothing against people using Kickstarter to fund projects. I have something against people who leave the internet publicly and in a huff. Seen it one too many times to do anything other than chuckle.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

KelliWolfe said:


> Why would you write a 400 page novel for free?


I'm pretty sure the vast majority of indies do exactly that. We get paid when customers buy the book, not before. We take the gamble that what we write will resonate with readers, so we can sell enough to be able to write the next book.

I don't care if people do funding campaigns. The issue I had with this was that she seemed to think people should pay her to write a book -- which _you_ said probably wouldn't have sold much, since the first one didn't. Where's the upside to this? Except for the writer, who would have gotten enough money to write one book, ironically for free since it would have been on somebody else's dime, and the small number of "fans" who apparently didn't actually care if she wrote the sequel or not?


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## Fast Typist (May 9, 2013)

Off topic:  When I first read the title to this post, I read "A YA writer QUILTS - sad and a bit sickening."

As a quilter, I wondered what was going on...

Beverly


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Beverly Farr said:


> Off topic: When I first read the title to this post, I read "A YA writer QUILTS - sad and a bit sickening."
> 
> As a quilter, I wondered what was going on...
> 
> Beverly


L. O. L.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 19, 2013)

Monique said:


> Okay, what? Where is the evidence that her being a woman had anything to do with anything?


We have no idea what was actually said to her, but there is a long, horrible history of harassment and intimidation of women online, especially creators and artists and just as especially on entry points like Kickstarter, Indigogo or Etsy.

If it was bad enough for her to cancel, I doubt it was purely the 'bootstraps, how dare you' crowd what did the doing.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Beverly Farr said:


> Off topic: When I first read the title to this post, I read "A YA writer QUILTS - sad and a bit sickening."
> 
> As a quilter, I wondered what was going on...


Maybe Betsy swooped in and did a little work on the subject line. 

Apropos of not much, I've read one of Stacey Jay's books -- _Blood on the Bayou_. Thought it was terrific. It takes a lot to get me to see past first-person/present, and that book did. I'm delighted to hear she's moving indiewards.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Beverly Farr said:


> "A YA writer QUILTS - sad and a bit sickening."


It is disgusting and I will not stand idly by while these quilters corrupt our youths.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow, wow...

For those saying she could get a book up and published for $40 - really? Even with a basic cover, do you not pay for editing and proofing? And if you've never formatted a book before, then certainly formatting for both e-book and print.

I remember everyone was enthusiastic about Michael.J.Sullivan's kickstarter, and I see no reason not to be. I don't mind at all what someone else does or thinks is necessary to get their book on the road. Yes, it would have been better if this author wrote a better summary of why she wanted the project funded (and not include living expenses as a point). And I can also see fans getting upset if they've been waiting on this book (which would have happened had she not lost her publishing contract) and they learn it's not going to happen if she doesn't get it funded by kickstarter.

I can take negative reviews but to have my readers suddenly turn against me personally would be a shock. Again, I understand their reasons but I can also understand she's feeling pretty down on herself right now. Lost a contract, made a big mistake with her kickstarter and had readers turn against her etc.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

Vaalingrade said:


> We have no idea what was actually said to her, but there is a long, horrible history of harassment and intimidation of women online, especially creators and artists and just as especially on entry points like Kickstarter, Indigogo or Etsy.
> 
> If it was bad enough for her to cancel, I doubt it was purely the 'bootstraps, how dare you' crowd what did the doing.


That's a leap. The bias and the environment exist but there's no evidence in this case that anyone said anything because of her gender,

The interesting thing is, I haven't been able to find the comments that actually prompted the drama. There are some claims that the whole thing erupted over some discussion on how people requested funds for their Kickstarter, using hers as an example, but not directly attacking her. She read the comments and closed her Kickstarter, making sure people knew she was crying and that the YA community was to blame. Her post got much more attention than the Kickstarter itself. Which is still viewable. And really not inflammatory in any way.

Whether it's accurate or not, some comments on the drama:

Kickstarter Discussion


> That is my point: NO ONE DID THAT. All this supposed backlash did not occur. The offense never happened! This whole lament is other authors coming to her defense because unknown "people" and unknown "they" supposedly were malicious, as you say. Who was malicious? Just authors self-stroking with their own righteous indignation.





> What was actually discussed by bloggers: What this a viable business model for kidlit? Should her fans go ask there parents for money to support her?


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Vaalingrade said:


> We have no idea what was actually said to her, but there is a long, horrible history of harassment and intimidation of women online, especially creators and artists and just as especially on entry points like Kickstarter, Indigogo or Etsy.
> 
> If it was bad enough for her to cancel, I doubt it was purely the 'bootstraps, how dare you' crowd what did the doing.


Except you yourself just said you don't know, so all you're doing is introducing speculative outrage that may or may not exist. I'm pretty sure we have enough to discuss here without feeding the internet telephone machine to the point where in a few pages we'll be discussing the "death threats" she received for her kickstarter.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Dolphin said:


> It is disgusting and I will not stand idly by while these quilters corrupt our youths.


 

*reaches for banstick*



Betsy


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Vaalingrade said:


> We have no idea what was actually said to her, but there is a long, horrible history of harassment and intimidation of women online, especially creators and artists and just as especially on entry points like Kickstarter, Indigogo or Etsy.
> 
> If it was bad enough for her to cancel, I doubt it was purely the 'bootstraps, how dare you' crowd what did the doing.


I think there's enough speculation going on in this thread without bringing in more (by your own words, Vaal), especially of such an inflammatory nature.

Betsy


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

The Internet is a great leveler - and part of that leveling effect is that you are going to know in an instant the flaw in your bright idea.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

MyraScott said:


> The interesting thing is, I haven't been able to find the comments that actually prompted the drama.


I just went to look now and found comments on twitter.


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## EverynKildare (Jun 8, 2014)

I find this whole discussion, and the turmoil that ensued, interesting. 
When I first decided to go indie I did a lot of research and reading of self-publishing books and blogs and was lead to believe that using kickstarter to fund the editorial, formatting and cover art was a viable route. I had even included it in my publishing plan.
I didn't end up doing it, for various reasons, but for people just starting out who may not have enough, even with a full time job and a spouse who also works, to pay for these services, it seems a means to getting your book more polished if you don't have the skills to do it yourself.
That may or may not have been the case with this particular author who already had books out both trad pub and indie, but I don't think Kickstarter for books should be a definite no-no if crowdfunding is the only means an author has to come up with the money to put out a quality book. I'm not saying "pay my bills for an extended period of time so I can write", but at least to help with the other expenses that some people CANNOT come up with on their own, if fans or friends are willing to pitch in to make it happen, why not?


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

A.A said:


> I just went to look now and found comments on twitter.


You found the comments that prompted the whole takedown? My Twitterfu is sadly lacking but I could only find post-drama side-taking.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Vaalingrade said:


> We have no idea what was actually said to her, but there is a long, horrible history of harassment and intimidation of women online, especially creators and artists and just as especially on entry points like Kickstarter, Indigogo or Etsy.
> 
> If it was bad enough for her to cancel, I doubt it was purely the 'bootstraps, how dare you' crowd what did the doing.


EDITED: IGNORE COMMENT BELOW - I didn't see that Betsy had already commented on this - sorry!

Where on Etsy? The stats on Etsy are that 88% of the sellers are women. I'm a seller on Etsy and have not seen what you are describing. I can't speak to the other two at all, but where are you seeing sexual harassment on Etsy?

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying this is a fairly inflammatory statement that you're throwing a lot of logs on. I'm just interested in where you are pointing to.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

From the Kickstarter:


> I simply want to cover my expenses writing books I love for excited readers like you.


But then this:



> What happens if this doesn't fund?
> Then there will be no sequel or new books and I will concentrate on re-publishing my backlist.


So, she's perfectly able to publish _other_ books without getting money from people, but for this one she needs $10.5K to pay all her expenses for three months. 



Dolphin said:


> It is disgusting and I will not stand idly by while these quilters corrupt our youths.


We seriously need to address corrupting quilters. Next thing you know, they'll be blaming the thread and needles for their dastardly deeds. Though I have heard the quilting frame makers are absolutely horrible people. Very mean. But you didn't get that from me.


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## EverynKildare (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't know about these corrupting quilters... I'm more of a crochet woman at heart


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

everynkildare said:


> I don't know about these corrupting quilters... I'm more of a crochet woman at heart


Betsy! We need a banning here, stat!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

everynkildare said:


> I don't know about these corrupting quilters... I'm more of a crochet woman at heart





Rick Gualtieri said:


> Betsy! We need a banning here, stat!


We just say that crocheters are just future quilters. I crocheted at one time...until I found the true path. 



she-la-ti-da said:


> We seriously need to address corrupting quilters. Next thing you know, they'll be blaming the thread and needles for their dastardly deeds. Though I have heard the quilting frame makers are absolutely horrible people. Very mean. But you didn't get that from me.


It's a poor workman who blames his tools. Or something like that. 

Betsy


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## EverynKildare (Jun 8, 2014)

I think, as long as you're creating something and enjoying what you're doing, it's all good.


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

Corrupting quilters? Ha! Clearly none of you have met the hooligans who dabble in macrame. *shivers*


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## abishop (May 22, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> So, she's perfectly able to publish _other_ books without getting money from people, but for this one she needs $10.5K to pay all her expenses for three months.


The other books are already written. She doesn't need to pay her living expenses while she writes them because there is no writing to do.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

Steve W. said:


> Corrupting quilters? Ha! Clearly none of you have met the hooligans who dabble in macrame. *shivers*


Just the thought of that has my stomach in knots. Seriously, try hanging out with rug hookers for a while. Those people will rip you into shreds!


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Make a preorder. Take 90 days to get the book written and done or have a draft first. Second the book goes for sale you get the money as part of that month's royalties. Easiest way to test if the fan base will support it. If you don't get enough money, release it, take your losses and move on and the internet will still love you.
> 
> We all work for free on our next project. that's the point. I am six months in on a reboot and only now getting to where good profit is coming in because I have to keep a kitty to always have funds for two more projects because that's how the cycle goes. Two months go by before I see a penny on a project I release this month so I have to keep reserves.
> 
> It's not rocket science. And this where the whole "I don't want to write for free " grates because on this planet that's what you do unless you have an advance from a publisher. The writing has been on the wall for a long time, I am empathetic that things changed for her that sucks. But it happens. To all of us.


I'm with you. I don't care about the Kickstarter - I wouldn't have funded her but, whatever, yolo. However, she's been a writer for 10 years, and there's a perfectly viable way of funding your writing projects called writing projects. If she published 10 romances last year, she knows the ropes. She can use her high-traffic projects to fund pet projects.

Starting to think you're right - cancelling a Kickstarter in less than a day because people were mean then posting an "apology" that turns all "if you don't like me then you hate artists and don't think they should be paid" does sound a little catfishy!


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## a_g (Aug 9, 2013)

Where was all this outrage when Fiction Unboxed went live on Kickstarter? They were very upfront that if they did the project and stated they would need to cease all other projects that could/would make them money. So, if they did it, they needed $19k to cover them until it was finished.

Isn't that asking to cover living expenses? Sure sounded like it to me.

Due to their strong fanbase, they funded in less than 24 hours (although my memory on that is sketchy).


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

a_g said:


> Where was all this outrage when Fiction Unboxed went live on Kickstarter? They were very upfront that if they did the project and stated they would need to cease all other projects that could/would make them money. So, if they did it, they needed $19k to cover them until it was finished.
> 
> Isn't that asking to cover living expenses? Sure sounded like it to me.


Yeah, it's fine. Frank Chimero did the same thing and got $112,159 towards his goal of $27,000:



> Where's this money going? Most of it will be sunk into production costs, and after that a small bit will be used to allow me to focus exclusively on writing for a few months. Additional money is going towards the production the book: things like hiring a professional editor, further refinements on the digital editions, and maybe a few surprises in the print edition as well.


It's fine. As long as you deliver the goods, Kickstarter doesn't care if you spend some of the money on your mortgage and gas, and neither do a lot of funders.

They _do_ care if you've been taking online miscommunication tips from Nora Roberts.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

abishop said:


> The other books are already written. She doesn't need to pay her living expenses while she writes them because there is no writing to do.


Well, there's editing and cover costs. Where's that money coming from? And who's paying her to write those romances? They seem to get done without a Kickstarter.

Whatever. I'm out of here on this subject. Somebody had to bring up macrame, and my heart can't take it.


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

artofstu said:


> Please read my above post.
> 
> I would love to see actual examples of a cover that cost $40 that people think is as good as trad published books (and I'm not talking about the odd trad pubbed book that somehow had a weird design concept). I'd almost be willing to bet I could find problems with it.


I know this post was a while back, but my covers were all $50 or less. Not quite the 40 that you're asking for, but not exactly thousands.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

MyraScott said:


> You found the comments that prompted the whole takedown? My Twitterfu is sadly lacking but I could only find post-drama side-taking.


Sorry - it was late last night here in Aust. Past midnight. I'm not at all sure which comments prompted the whole takedown. I just looked for negative comments. Will PM you as I don't want to publicly call them out. I believe people have a right to express themselves.


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## wtvr (Jun 18, 2014)

The question isn't whether or not you can find a problem with an inexpensive cover, it's whether the cover is an effective selling tool for its genre. Being able to find fault with any cover is missing the point. Claiming you absolutely have to have 1500 for a cover is... well it's just funny.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Thank you. I typically don't click on blog links.
> Now it makes more sense I guess.





cinisajoy said:


> Thank you. I typically don't click on blog links.
> Now it makes more sense I guess.


Perhaps you shouldn't comment then? You know, since you don't have all the information. Just a thought.


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We just say that crocheters are just future quilters. I crocheted at one time...until I found the true path.
> 
> It's a poor workman who blames his tools. Or something like that.
> 
> Betsy


I quilt And crochet...... what does this mean?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

SunshineOnMe said:


> I quilt And crochet...... what does this mean?


It means you are a pokey hooker.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

WG McCabe said:


> Perhaps you shouldn't comment then? You know, since you don't have all the information. Just a thought.


As far as I can tell, posts on this forum would be cut severely if people who haven't clicked through to links stopped commenting. Threads here are full of comments like "I didn't read the original article, but...."

Pretty sure there are some other similar posts in this thread. Lighten up, please.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## SunshineOnMe (Jan 11, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> It means you are a pokey hooker.


bwahahahahahaha! Better than a crooked hooker, I suppose.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As far as I can tell, posts on this forum would be cut severely if people who haven't clicked through to links stopped commenting. Threads here are full of comments like "I didn't read the original article, but...."
> 
> Pretty sure there are some other similar posts in this thread. Lighten up, please.
> 
> ...


That was pretty light. All I'm saying is why comment on something when you don't know actually know the facts of the topic? And that goes for anyone. Hell, why would anyone want to?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I wonder about the same thing about a lot of different kinds of posts, WGM.  People have many reasons for posting, and some of them are mysteries to me.  Incivility, for example.  I don't really understand the need to be rude or to cut people, yet it happens here, too often for my tastes.  But I do believe someone can have an opinion or a question about things that have been said in a thread without referring back to a link or even the OP. That also happens all the time here.  (EDITED to clarify.)

Betsy


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Lots of things happen all the time here that is permitted by TPTB, but we've danced that dance before.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback, WGM.  We'll take it under consideration.

Let's move on...

Betsy


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## Steve W. (Feb 23, 2011)

I am still surprised so many are against Kickstarter for publishing (or at least novels, if not for other products). I tend do seek those projects out b/c of my interest in publishing. I will admit that I like to support projects where the funds are going just to the project, and not to the living costs. I do have a few criteria for what publishing projects I'd support: the writing needs to be done, and the author needs to have a demonstrated ability to get a finished project together. Also, I've never been a fan of projects that give nothing but a "thank-you" for their lowest funding level. 

I'm still planning to do a kickstarter for my project so this thread has been very enlightening. I appreciate the frankness of some of the posts.

I do think that the woman the Op was discussing did keep things above board--i.e. she didn't lie about where the money would go. I also think that when you ask for money, you open yourself up to tough questions and that anticipating those questions might have enabled her to have a strategy in place to help her roll with the jabs a bit... differently.


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## KateSparkes (May 6, 2013)

Well, this has been an interesting (and time-consuming) discussion to read through. 

I have no problem with people using Kickstarter for books. In fact, a novel (a creative project with start-up costs that can be significant) seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing to Kickstart. Sure, you CAN do it on a shoestring, but that's not necessarily the way some people want to approach starting a business, and not everyone has extra income, even when she has a good work ethic and a full-time job.

If an author has a fan base who are willing to contribute up-front for costs, I have no problem with it. As others have said, it's basically glorified pre-orders. Donors are getting something in return for their contributions, something they consider worth the cost, whether it's an e-book or a signed paperback or a poster or whatever. If I don't think it's worth it, I won't contribute.

As for living expenses... I wouldn't ask for them, and doing it seems to have been a bad decision on her part (though I've heard of other people doing it, so I'm not sure what happened here). But if fans want to cover that, I'm not going to criticize. No one is forcing them. If fans want to pay for her to buy a magical pink pony to ride around her own personal Neverland ranch, that's their business.

Didn't someone get a ridiculous amount of money in a Kickstarter to fund potato salad? I'd rather see well-edited and nicely presented novels funded, personally.

ETA: The flouncing was unfortunate...


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Steve W. said:


> I do think that the woman the Op was discussing did keep things above board--i.e. she didn't lie about where the money would go. I also think that when you ask for money, you open yourself up to tough questions and that anticipating those questions might have enabled her to have a strategy in place to help her roll with the jabs a bit... differently.


Yeah, learn from folks like Frank Chimero. The problem isn't using some of the money for living expenses, just how you frame and communicate it. Keep it cute, keep it classy, keep it chipper and pleasant.

Be a bright-eyed young buck who's elated to get five figures for a populist potato salad adventure. Not a fragile artist whose family, in the absence of charitable contributions, will starve in the new creative economy.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KateSparkes, your book's cover is gorgeous.


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## busywoman (Feb 22, 2014)

By contrast, here's an example of a successful IndieGogo campaign for a book that's raised $18,000 -- or $16,000 more than the $2K goal. With two days left.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mrexcel-xl-book-40-greatest-excel-tricks

But the whole approach is completely different. This one gives the community many reasons to participate. The author is confident about the campaign and what he's doing, and his enthusiasm shows. Most importantly, he knows his target audience and what will appeal to them. It may not appeal to a YA audience. But it appeals to many in the audience he wants to reach (businesspeople who are Excel users).

I only raise this to point out that crowdfunding campaigns for books can be successful, if well crafted.


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## latepaul (Jan 1, 2015)

I was just reading posts on another forum and happened to notice a new link in the sig of one of the mods there. She's a FB friend of mine, and though I only know her through the internet she's always seemed like a good egg - level headed, sensible, able to laugh at herself and life. Anyway, she's a preschool teacher, but I vaguely knew she's talked about writing in the past. So I clicked on the link and it's a gofundme campaign to raise money for a novel. 

"Oh," I thought, "I might make a small contribution."

Then I start reading. First there's a long description of what the novel will be about - a sort of fictionalised version of her own story by the sounds of it. Then she talks about how much she's asking for and what she's going to use it for, which includes:

- paying off student loans
- pay off other debts
- allow her to reduce her day-job hours so she can do research for the novel (talk to others in the profession)
- allow her to switch to a lower-paid job but at a higher quality school
- rent a small office to work in

the amount? $85,000.

I was gob-smacked. She is at pains to point out that this is the absolute most she'll need and anything less will help (I take it unlike Kickstarter, Gofundme isn't all or nothing?).

As for the woman in this thread: I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in what she was doing - she just misjudged how she presented it. Even so I think she should have stuck it out, the reaction would've died down and she'd either have met her goal or not. No harm done. As it is she'll probably be remember as somewhat petulant.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2015)

latepaul said:


> Even so I think she should have stuck it out, the reaction would've died down and she'd either have met her goal or not.


The cynic in me says there's no such thing as bad publicity and apparently SJ's book sales have soared in the last couple of days as people rush out to buy her novels to support her and she will probably make her goal just not through kickstarter.


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