# You don't own your Kindle books, says Amazon



## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Deleted.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

That was quite a while back, in 2012. I remember hearing about it; apparently she bought her kindle books from the wrong Amazon site, that wasn't authorized for sales where she was living (AmazonUK, while she was living in Norway? something like that). It was still kind of stupid, but not just random for no reason.

And yeah, ebooks are supposedly only "licensed", not sold. But when you buy DRM-free books, the point is pretty much moot because you can back them up on your computer and other devices, and Amazon won't reach in and take them away.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Yes, pretty old, as evidenced by the Kindle 2 in the photo.  

But most digital content that one purchases has restrictions, unlike physical copies, as is pointed out in the article.

Betsy


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## JLCarver (Sep 13, 2015)

Well now I feel silly. I guess that will teach me to look harder at the dates.   

But hey, that keyboard on that Kindle looks pretty sweet! haha!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

The topic in and of itself remains current--but that particular case is pretty old.

And yes, those of us who had early Kindles remember our keyboards fondly. I didn't have a K2, but had a K1 which also had a keyboard. I hate the onscreen keyboards (though I didn't use the keyboard that much).  We do have members who would take notes though and REALLY miss the keyboard.

I should note that the Kindle 2 was already really old and obsolete at the time of the article--it was from 2009 and the Kindle 3 was introduced in 2010.  Pretty funny that they used that image--the Kindle 5 had been announced by September 2012 and the Paperwhite on Oct 1and that article is from Oct 2012.

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

My first thought, on reading the thread title, was, "yeah . . . old news". 

It is a thing, though, that many people don't completely 'get'. They reason that they paid the money so it's 'theirs' to do with as they wish. Even if they do read all the gobbledygook in the ToS, most people don't think, "I'll sit down and read the copy of the book I just licensed." So it's easy to forget that it's a different animal than a physical book, even if, for the most part, you use it the same way.

That said, the crux of the issue in the case cited is that if there isn't a local country store, you're supposed to buy from Amazon US, and apparently that person had played some games so that it would look like she was in in the UK and eligible to buy through that store. She got caught when she had to have the replacement device shipped to a different country. Oops.

One can argue that the 'where to purchase from' rule is silly, but I think it's probably informed by whatever agreements Amazon have with the countries where they've opened kindle stores. And/or their own best self interest. And it's not a hidden policy, so the person knew she was kinda cheating. It's a bummer she lost access to her books, but, she sorta wasn't entitled to buy 'em in the first place. 

As to physical keyboards on Kindles . . . I never cared much one way or the other. (I had an original kindle and also a 3rd generation, which was the last one with a physical keyboard.) They worked just fine, but were smaller than I find useful for real 'typing', even on the large screen DX model. And I really like that not having one means the thing so much smaller and lighter. 

Mind you, the first basic kindle that was not a touch screen was very awkward to use for entering any text information. You had to use a 4 way selector to move around an alphabet and select letters one by one -- as on some DVR remotes. It absolutely made any sort of extensive keyboarding -- say, notetaking in books -- completely impractical. But worked well enough to enter the wifi password which is about as much as I ever do. 

But, then, I never could understand how people could actually type extensively on _any_ hand held device as the keyboards -- whether physical or on screen -- are just too small for me. Even now, if I'm going to respond to something and it's going to be more than a couple of words, I won't use my phone or tablet but go to a computer with a 'real' keyboard.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> As to physical keyboards on Kindles . . . I never cared much one way or the other. (I had an original kindle and also a 3rd generation, which was the last one with a physical keyboard.) They worked just fine, but were smaller than I find useful for real 'typing', even on the large screen DX model. And I really like that not having one means the thing so much smaller and lighter.


Like you, I never used it for much more than entering passwords and an occasional search term. (Probably more often for search terms.). But I do both often enough that the on screen keyboard is a pain. I do a lot of experimenting with my Kindles to aid in responding to questions here, which has resulted in me having to set up my Kindle several times. That little onscreen keyboard is a pain.

But I agree, most onscreen keyboards are a pain...which is why I have a Bluetooth keyboard that I can use with my Fire and my iPad. And my iPhone. (Logitech 801 which switches between devices at the touch of a button.)

Betsy


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

I buy nearly all my Kindle book from Amazon and I do agree to abide by their TOS but that's just so they'll sell me the book.  I don't really mean it.  Instead I use my own rules, which are:  I bought the book so it's mine.  I'll be fair and not distribute it to others who haven't paid for it so the author and Amazon don't lose money because of me.  I'm not a cheat.  Other than that it's my book and I'll do whatever suits me.

If I want to read it on my Kobo I will, and I sometimes do. On my phone I have the Kindle app but I prefer Moon+ reader and I'll read it on that.  I'll happily do whatever it takes to make this possible.  These are my TOS and I don't require Amazon to agree with it. 

If Amazon goes kerplunk tomorrow I have my books all safely backed up in both epub and mobi formats so I'll always be able to read them.  I learned to do this decades ago when B&N made their first entry into ebooks, long before the Kindle or Nook came along, and after 3 or 4 years decided to get out of the business.  We had 30 days notice to download all our books, which I did.  Then not long after I got a new PC but their reader was no longer available so I wasn't able to read my books.  Now I protect myself.  I don't expect Amazon to go under but I have nearly 800 books with them, most of which I paid for.  Only a few were free.  I didn't and won't pay to rent a book.  If I can't make an unprotected backup I simply won't buy it.

In other words I do own my books.  I paid for them.  I'm entitled to them.  I'm going to keep them.

This is nothing against Amazon.  I'm a big fan of theirs.  I think they do a great job and provide me a great service.  I'm glad they're there for me.  The problem isn't Amazon, it's the system.  It's what Amazon has to do to get titles from publishers and I understand that.  They're doing what they have to do and so am I.

Barry


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## foxprorawks (Jul 19, 2015)

I bought a book in 2013 from Amazon UK called: Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. Living the dream...in Benidorm! [Kindle Edition]

At some point, I must have deleted it from my Kindle. We were watching a program on TV about Benidorm last night, and I said to my wife "I must let you read that book".

Went to the Amazon UK site, and the book is now only available in paperback. My original order exists on Amazon's system, but the book doesn't appear in "Manage Your Content and Devices".

I'm guessing that there's no way of me getting the book on Kindle now, despite paying for it.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

foxprorawks said:


> I bought a book in 2013 from Amazon UK called: Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. Living the dream...in Benidorm! [Kindle Edition]
> 
> At some point, I must have deleted it from my Kindle. We were watching a program on TV about Benidorm last night, and I said to my wife "I must let you read that book".
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Just deleting it from your kindle shouldn't have removed it from MYC&D. You'd have had to remove it from your account which you'd have had to have done by going to the Amazon site; you can't remove a book from your account from an eInk kindle.

OR

Perhaps the e-edition you got wasn't authorized -- that happened a bunch early on with people putting up books for sale that they didn't have the rights on . . . _Animal Farm_ and _The Little Prince_ come to mind as two I know of. I expect there were others.

The first big dust up was about _Animal Farm_ since Amazon deleted it from everyone's account, issuing a full refund, without a 'by your leave'. There was a great dust up about it but they did the right thing, if possibly in the wrong way, because it wasn't an authorized edition. And they had issued refunds. Subsequently, they put out a press release explaining why they did what they did, giving everyone who'd had the book an extra credit, and said they'd not do it that way again..

After that, their practice has been that, when they find a book has been uploaded without authorization, they remove it from sale and contact all who bought it. The email (I got one for _The Little Prince_) explains that it's an unauthorized copy and will be removed from your account and that you'll be issued a refund of the purchase price, and requests that you remove all copies from your devices.

So. Maybe it was an unauthorized edition and you just don't remember getting any emails about it being removed. Or maybe you did remove it from your account and don't remember having done so. If it was me, I'd contact Kindle CS and ask some questions to try to jump start my brain.


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## foxprorawks (Jul 19, 2015)

Thanks - contacted Amazon and they've added the book back into my account.  Presumably, I actually deleted it at some point...


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

The corporations refuse to accept that the only people they are hurting with DRM, digital rights management, are the honest ones.  And in reality they force honest people to take steps  to protect themselves, which they wouldn't have to take otherwise, if they weren't treated them as if they were criminals.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

kb7uen Gene said:


> The corporations refuse to accept that the only people they are hurting with DRM, digital rights management, are the honest ones. And in reality they force honest people to take steps to protect themselves, which they wouldn't have to take otherwise, if they weren't treated them as if they were criminals.


I think companies like Amazon do realize that and they probably dislike DRM as much as you and I do. It's a pretty hefty cost to them in terms of both technology and support. They do it so publishers will trust them with their titles. Without DRM they won't have any books to sell.

It's a pretty sad situation but life is full of sad situations that no-one likes.

Barry


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

barryem said:


> Without DRM they won't have any books to sell.


Not true - plenty of publishers are publishing on Amazon without DRM. Just not the big 5 (or however many there are).


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Eltanin Publishing said:


> Not true - plenty of publishers are publishing on Amazon without DRM. Just not the big 5 (or however many there are).


I think his point was that if Amazon didn't offer a way to copy protect the books, that the big 5 wouldn't be willing to do business with them. And, excellent indie titles not withstanding, I suspect that the big 5 are still a HUGE percentage of total sales . . . . and the reason MOST customers shop in the first place.


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

I was curious if this has changed at all - if many of the books at the top of Amazon's Best Sellers list are indy or smaller publishers, or for whatever reason not saddled with DRM. Remember when we could tell if a book had DRM by looking for a line about "simultaneous usage" or something? I think it said 6 if it had DRM and said "unlimited" if it didn't. I don't see that now. Any idea how we can tell if a book has DRM, if the publisher doesn't explicitly say so in the book description?

The top 5 books on that list are published by:
[Edited - they kept changing, so I'm putting titles]
#1 - Moonlit Garden - AmazonCrossing (Amazon)
#2 - Fields of Wrath - Thomas & Mercer (Amazon)
#3 - Harmony Black - 47North (Amazon)

no publisher listed for #4 _A Shade of Vampire_ which, interestingly, does list "Simultaneous Device Usage: Unlimited" in the info list - maybe it has DRM unless it says this? Same situation for #6 - _Baller_ - no publisher listed, says unlimited simultaneous usage.

#5 - The Last Anniversary - Harper Perennial

#7 - The Good Neighbor - Lake Union Publishing (Amazon)
#8 - Yellow Crocus - Lake Union Publishing (Amazon)
#9 - Meg's Confession - Montlake Romance (Amazon)
#10 - The Short Drop - Thomas & Mercer (Amazon)

[The list kept changing, with_ Last Anniversary_ popping up the list]

So, 7 published by Amazon, 2 indies, and 1 "big" publisher.

So we had to go to 7th 5th to find one by a "big publisher". I do still think the bigs are a significant portion of sales, but a lower portion than they used to be. Now, someone could analyze what percentage of sales (money) comes from the big publishers; the first 14 books on the list are $5.99 or less until you get to #15, a Patterson book by Little, Brown and Company which is $14.99... I think the Google store has a ranking list based on how much income an app has brought in.

Anyway - just some curiosity and random thoughts - my only point is that perhaps the bigs aren't as much of a huge percentage of sales as they used to be. But, of course, few people would by a kindle if you couldn't get a lot of best sellers for it.


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm pretty surprised that the Amazon imprints seem to have DRM (if only DRM-free books have the "unlimited" device usage listed). I would have thought Amazon was scooping up promising indy authors, and I would have thought indy authors would rather be DRM-free. I wonder if Amazon is _requiring_ their authors to have DRM...


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

If it had DRM it didn't usually say anything . . . DRM was assumed.

The only time it said anything was if the device limit was other than 6, to include 'unlimited', which generally meant no real DRM. There are also a few books where publishers specified a lower device limit.

Though, I admit I don't pay a lot of attention to it, because it doesn't matter to me personally one way or the other.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

I think you're confusing two characteristics, DRM and limited devices.  Nearly all Amazon's books have DRM.  The exceptions are where the publisher requests that there be no DRM.  For a long time when no DRM was requested there was an announcement on the page that per the publisher's request no DRM was applied.  Books written by Andrew Greeley are examples of this because he wanted all his books to be freely shared.  I no longer find that announcement so I'm not sure how to tell which books have DRM from just looking at the page. I can put one on my Kobo and tell right away.  As little as a year ago, and probably more recently, that announcement was always there.  And it was rare to see it.  Almost all of Amazon's books have DRM.

The limit to the number of simultaneous devices is a different feature.  As I understand it the default is 6 devices but the publisher can override that.  It's not uncommon to see unlimited simultaneous devices because the publisher chose that.  Those books still have DRM and this isn't guessing.  I've seen it myself on the books I buy.  They get backed up and I know which had DRM.  Basically it's all of them.

My guess, and it's only that, is that using DRM on a book is automatic, part of the built-in process, unless specifically declined by the publisher.  And that probably doesn't happen much.

As to the number of books from the big 5, I read recently that they publish 85% (or maybe it was 86%) of the books in the USA.  I'm not really sure how accurate that could be since most of the statistical information about publishing comes from them, but even if it's way off, losing that would be a huge blow to Amazon.  And if they quite providing DRM they'd probably lose not only the big 5 publishers but the majority of smaller publishers as well, and maybe even a lot of self published authors.

That could be a huge boon to Kobo and B&N, both of whom offer DRM and do accept self-published books these days.  At the least Amazon would lose it's advantage.  Probably it would find itself a minor player in the ebook business in a very short time.

Yes I'm guessing a lot here.  I don't know a lot of what I just guessed at.  But I'm fairly confident that I'm right.

I think the reason for DRM isn't because publishers are paranoid or because they're evil or greedy.  I think they find it an absolute necessity because you and I like to share our books and that terrifies them.  I'm pretty sure, even though growth in ebooks has slowed for now, that the future of books is digital and I suspect the publishers know that too.  And with digital books sharing is so easy without DRM, the lack of it could easily turn publishing from a hugely profitable business to a lot smaller business with a lot of companies trying to just stay afloat.

I could buy a book, find it exciting and email a copy to all my friends.  Yes, I can do that now, but I don't.  Not because I have any objection to that in principle,  I've always passed paper books around, but because it looks to so many people like stealing and I don't want to look like a thief to my friends.

Personally I'm in favor of sharing books and even though I hope publishers continue to do well that's not my problem.  I'd love to see all ebook stores drop DRM.  I don't expect it but I can dream.

So we have the system we have and it's not one I would have chosen but it's what gets me books and for the most part I live with it and work within it's rules.  I do back up my books without DRM as a way to protect myself.  I do share a book occasionally but it's not something I do a lot.  It's the system we have and I grumble about it but I support it.

Barry


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## larryb52 (Nov 18, 2009)

DRM is fine if it were more than just a license I have with Amazon to read a book. Would not mind the price either as I would actually have something to so called put my hands around. I could back it up etc. One of the facts that bother me is people want cheaper prices (who doesn't)  and no DRM but they want quality books from their favorite authors. I would rather see my author do well as they are apt to write better books but as it is no one wins. I'm sure they don't make much as it is and with things getting more digital financially things have to change or there will be poorly written books and authors wondering why they bother to start with...I wish there was a magic answer for everyone but there isn't. Capitalist at work , it is what it is...just my 2 cents...


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

Amazon and every other book seller is full of poorly written and poorly formatted books.  We've all encountered them.  But there are a lot of very good books as well and we learn ways to track those.

And this isn't anything new.  I've been reading badly written books from time to time since i was a kid.  The difference with Amazon is that it's easier to figure out which is which.

Barry


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

barryem said:


> I think you're confusing two characteristics, DRM and limited devices.


No I'm not. The two characteristics are linked.



barryem said:


> Nearly all Amazon's books have DRM.


It depends what kinds of books you're looking at. Most indy authors and small publishers choose not to have DRM.



barryem said:


> The exceptions are where the publisher requests that there be no DRM.


Publishers, at least KDP authors and publishers (KDP is Amazon's publishing platform for indy authors and small publishers) don't exactly "request" no DRM. There are radio buttons, and "no DRM" is actually selected by default.


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

BTW, I'm getting a lot of error messages when I try to reply with multiple quotes of what people said, so that's why I have multiple posts...



> For a long time when no DRM was requested there was an announcement on the page that per the publisher's request no DRM was applied.


I'm not sure this is accurate. I believe that if you saw an announcement of this type, it was because the publisher (as I do) write in the book description that there is no DRM, because they want potential customers to know. I don't believe there is/was any official indication from Amazon.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

Eltanin Publishing said:


> BTW, I'm getting a lot of error messages when I try to reply with multiple quotes of what people said, so that's why I have multiple posts...


The way to do that is to copy and paste the word "quote" enclosed in brackets and preceded by a forward slash at the place where you want to insert your own text. Also insert another copy of that at the beginning of the area you want to quote next but in this one remove the slash. Then insert your text and send the message.

I had to describe the part to be copied because if i'd typed it out it would have been treated as the end of a quote. The way it works is that the left square bracket followed by a keyword, in this case "quote" and ending in a right square bracket, begins a section and the same combination with the same keyword preceded by a forward slash ends that section.



> I'm not sure this is accurate. I believe that if you saw an announcement of this type, it was because the publisher (as I do) write in the book description that there is no DRM, because they want potential customers to know. I don't believe there is/was any official indication from Amazon.


As for the announcement I have no idea whether it was supplied by Amazon or the publisher but it was there with Greeley and with a couple of others I can't recall now. I remember it with Greeley because I enjoy his books.

As for DRM, I buy most of my books from Amazon and I remove the DRM in my backup copies so I do know if a book has DRM. It's very rare to get one without DRM. I typically buy 2 to 5 books a week and I don't recall the last one that didn't have DRM. It hasn't been recent. Probably a year or two.

Barry


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## Eltanin Publishing (Mar 24, 2011)

I know how to do quotes. I'm getting error messages at times.

I ask again, how do you KNOW that the books you are buying from Amazon have DRM? I don't doubt that many (or most, depending on what kind of books you buy) have it, but I'm curious how you know. The only way I can tell is if I can open the book file in a non-Amazon reader app without modifying the file first (in which case it doesn't have DRM).

You wrote that you believe the device limit is 6 but the publisher can override that. And you felt that was totally unrelated to DRM. It's not. As a publisher, I have no place to indicate a different number of simultaneous devices (perhaps big publisher can, with a different platform). If I leave the DRM choice on the default of "no DRM", then the unlimited device usage message appears on the book's product page. If I choose to have DRM, that message is not there. It's one and the same. 

I think you'd be surprised how many indy authors and small publishers choose NOT to have DRM. Most of them recognize that it doesn't stop pirates anyway, since pirates know how to remove the DRM. It only annoys loyal readers who may want to read on other devices/apps or backup their book files on their computer. If you're interested, you could do a poll in the Writers' Cafe area of kboards and ask.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Couple things--

EP, thanks for mentioning that you're having problems with quoting. PM me with more specifics on that--are you using the "insert quote" thingy when composing? And what error message are you getting. Is it happening with older threads or with brand new ones? Again, please PM me with this so as to not derail the thread.

If anyone wants to insert one of the tags above, and have it appear as a tag, you can first click on the button that looks like two brackets with a red line in it. That will put this code in your post:
[nobbc][nobbc][/nobbc][/nobbc]
(I used the button to have this^ display.)

Then, with the cursor still in the center of the [nobbc][nobbc][/nobbc][/nobbc] tags, tap the button that you want to display.

Finally, not sure about now, but the "unlimited" in the device usage field on the product page did indeed used to be an indicator that there was no DRM on the book. I know this for a fact through testing. Books with "unlimited" there could be moved directly from Kindle to Kindle and then read by dragging the book from one device to the other after downloading the book. You couldn't do that with other books--they were only readable on the device they were downloaded to from Amazon.

Not sure if that's still true--I haven't tried it lately.

Let's not get too worked up over the question, okay? Agree to disagree...

Betsy


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

When I got my new laptop about 3 months ago I installed Calibre early on but it was quite a while before I got around to installing the DRM removal plugin.  I buy at least 2 books a week, often as many as 4 or 5, depending on what goes on sale, and out of habit I kept downloading to my new laptop, which I was now using in place of my old one, and nothing freshly downloaded from Amazon would convert.  Nothing!  So I downloaded them again to my old one where the plugin was installed and everything converted just fine.  By the way, things I converted that didn't have DRM, such as old mobi files that I was converting to read on my Kobo, which does read mobi but with limitations, worked just fine.  It was only the stuff freshly downloaded from Amazon.  There wasn't a single exception.

I finally got around to installing the plugin on my new laptop and now everything converts just fine there too.

I always remove DRM on my backup copies of the books I buy because, as I've mentioned in other threads,  I used to be a B&N customer in the days long before the Nook or Kindle, and they got out of the business giving us 30 days to download our books.  At that time their books could only be read on their app.

A couple months later I got a new computer and the app was no longer available.  A call to customer service got me a polite "up yours, sucker" and my books were useless.  I was one of the lucky ones because I didn't have that many books from them and I'd read most of them.  But there were some I wanted to re-read down the road.  I learned my lesson.  I back up my books safely when I buy them.  I don't expect Amazon to go kerplunk of course, but I didn't expect B&N to do what they did either.

I'm just explaining this because I don't want to seem like a pirate.  I'm not.  I do buy and pay for my books.

I think our system is a very bad one.  It's the system we have and it gets me books so I live with it.  I don't expect to be able to change it but I do reserve the right to grumble. 

Barry


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## metal134 (Sep 2, 2010)

DRM is the reason I very rarely buy ebooks.  The overwhelming majority of stuff I read on my Kindle is public domain (i.e., classics).  I have bought many collections, but where talking literally a buck or two for the complete works of, say, DH Lawrence.  The few instances I have bought non-public domain books on Kindle were if it's something I would just read once and throw out anyway (which is hardly ever for me, but every so often),or if it were dirt cheap (got Game of Thrones on sale for $4).  Other than that, if I have to buy it, I will not put up with this draconian drm stuff.  The music industry learned it's lesson, it's time for the book and movie industries to do the same.  But let me be clear that I have no illusions that anything will change.


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## Dragle (Dec 10, 2011)

I agree with you, metal134.  I love the Kindle and use it all the time, but I only "buy" either free books (including Kindle First) or cheap books that I know I'm not going to care about keeping forever.  Not the latest best seller or other expensive books. In other words, I don't pay for anything I would be upset about losing.  Reference books I want in print anyway, since they are hard to use on a Kindle and I want to keep them long-term.  Other books I check out from the library just like I always did before having a Kindle.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Dragle said:


> Other books I check out from the library just like I always did before having a Kindle.


I've actually used the library a lot MORE since I've had the kindle . . . it's just so easy to get the books!


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## readingril (Oct 29, 2010)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I've actually used the library a lot MORE since I've had the kindle . . . it's just so easy to get the books!


Me too... and also ending up purchasing a lot of them when I've found them on sale, chronic rereader that I am.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

barryem said:


> I'm just explaining this because I don't want to seem like a pirate. I'm not. I do buy and pay for my books.


A fair distinction.



> I think our system is a very bad one. It's the system we have and it gets me books so I live with it.


Digital media distribution requires a difficult balancing act to protect valid intellectual property v. consumers' legitimate interests in easy use. We have struggled with this for decades, since the early 1980's with the advent of readily copyable computer programs.

Non one yet has proposed a viable alternative which meets the desires and needs of both sides of the equation.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

Elk said:


> Digital media distribution requires a difficult balancing act to protect valid intellectual property v. consumers' legitimate interests in easy use. We have struggled with this for decades, since the early 1980's with the advent of readily copyable computer programs.
> 
> Non one yet has proposed a viable alternative which meets the desires and needs of both sides of the equation.


The solution is to drop DRM. Yes that will allow people to share their books easily and it will cut into sales but that's true with paper books as well. It's easier to copy paper books but most people are honest. The music business dropped DRM and they're still here.

By the way when I say DRM in these posts I really mean encryption. I have no issues with watermarking books so that if they are distributed on the internet they can be traced back to their source. I think that's a pretty smart thing for book sellers and publishers to do.

Barry


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

barryem said:


> It's easier to copy paper books . . .


I suspect you have not stood in front of a copy machine, trying to copy a 200 page book. 

Compare that to the ease of making a copy of a digital book. Even if it has DRM, this is a couple of mouse clicks - as you know.



> The music business dropped DRM and they're still here.


Barely. Many have failed, others have been sold/merged. New artists are no longer able to obtain development contracts. Only proven artists are able to obtain recording contracts and even then are often responsible for unrecouped out-of-pocket costs. Non-mainstream artists are struggling more than ever before. Artists are paid fractions of a penny for their works which are streamed, most realize yearly royalties amounting to hundreds of dollars at most.

Most of us do not want to see publishers and writers end up in a similar situation. Writers are already struggling with electronic distribution models and how little they are paid.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

Sorry that was an error.  I meant to say it's easier to copy digital books.

I have digitized a lot of books using scanners and OCR.  I did that for years before you could buy ebooks and I was a proofer for years for Project Gutenberg.

Yes, a lot of music publisher have failed.  Technology changed their world and some didn't make it.  That's true of book publishers, too, and it will continue to be.  Buggy whip makers went under, too.  There are still blacksmiths but they're not so common now.

Actually a more appropriate example might be the book copying industry, which thrived in the days before the printing press. 

Barry


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## metal134 (Sep 2, 2010)

Elk said:


> I suspect you have not stood in front of a copy machine, trying to copy a 200 page book.
> 
> Compare that to the ease of making a copy of a digital book. Even if it has DRM, this is a couple of mouse clicks - as you know.
> Barely. Many have failed, others have been sold/merged. New artists are no longer able to obtain development contracts. Only proven artists are able to obtain recording contracts and even then are often responsible for unrecouped out-of-pocket costs. Non-mainstream artists are struggling more than ever before. Artists are paid fractions of a penny for their works which are streamed, most realize yearly royalties amounting to hundreds of dollars at most.
> ...


A lot of non-mainstream artists may be struggling under the old model, but there are also a lot of non-mainstream artists who are thriving under a new model. They are getting the word out about their music through the internet, be it through You Tube, Facebook or any number of other ways, which is a FAR better means of promotion for them than anything pre-internet ever was for underground artists.


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## barryem (Oct 19, 2010)

Last year I read "The Magnificent Ambersons" which was exactly about this same topic, changing technology and how it impacts those who are invested in the old ways.  In that case it was about the coming of automobiles but it's really the exact same story.  The Ambersons were the richest family in Indiana and they pretty much ran the state.  And then came cars.

If anyone plans to read this this paragraph will contain a spoiler so stop here.  But if you haven't read it you should.  This was the second novel ever to receive a Pulitzer Prize.  It's author, Booth Tarkington, was one of the few to win a second Pulitzer a few years later for "Alice Adams".  And both were very well deserved.  You won't forget these books.

Anyway, if you haven't read it stop here!

Stop, I say!!!

Stop!!!!



In the final scene, the last Amberson who at the start of the book was a most arrogant young boy, was an elderly man trying to eke out a living in his menial job and living in a rented room, reading about the formerly great families of Indiana, his state, and his family wasn't included.  They'd been forgotten.  And cars did it.

Barry


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Barry,

Thanks for sharing about The Magnficent Amberson. I looked it up and am going to read it!

 
The Magnificent Ambersons

Betsy


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## GBear (Apr 23, 2009)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Barry,
> 
> Thanks for sharing about The Magnficent Amberson. I looked it up and am going to read it!
> 
> ...


There is also a free version of the book on Amazon, which I opted for, cheapskate that I am. I'm looking forward to reading it - thanks, Barry!


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## H7Py49 (Mar 17, 2016)

barryem said:


> The Magnificent Ambersons


The second book in his Growth trilogy.



GBear said:


> There is also a free version of the book on Amazon, which I opted for, cheapskate that I am. I'm looking forward to reading it - thanks, Barry!


Yup, just search the Kindle Store: The Magnificent Ambersons free


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