# How're we supposed to compete



## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Bundles have been around for awhile, but I never really paid attention until today. Today I paid attention and I found bundles of five, seven even ten full length novels for sale for 99 cents. That's 3.5 cents net per friggin' novel on a ten book bundle. Previously I'd thought they were mostly crap and short stories but today I checked and they were decent 200 page plus stories with decent reviews. My question is how are we supposed to compete with such unfair competition? Ever since Amazon perfected and came out with the Kindle there's been a severe downward pressure on book prices. By now readers feel entitled to free or almost free books. My income is down 80% from two years ago with double the books. Between pirates, refunds and Amazon's & other vendors giveaway policies, books are becoming virtually worthless. It seems to me as much as I hate to think about it the only answer is for authors to organize.

I'd value your input


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Were these one author bundles or several author  bundles?  
It is getting near the holidays so you will see more of  them. 
To answer your question, just keep writing.  That is really all you can do.
Alternatively, get ONE  of your books in a box set.  For the exposure. 
And good luck.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

There is downward pressure on pricing for sure, but bundles are not really a "Problem". They're to give exposure to the other works of the authors.  Also, they've been around a long time.

You said "any help would be appreciated" and so I'm going to use that as a springboard to say a few general things just about the books in your sig line:

(1) are they in the adult dungeon? have you checked?  b/c I'm betting some of them are

(2) your covers are not exactly up to date, you may want to update them

(3) if you write erotica, there's an erotica forum that could help you stay on what's trendy in erotica and what's working and not working. You need to become a member there and read a lot as what you're doing by your own statements isn't working.

(4) are you writing in a series?  are you using permafree? are you in KU? 

(5) do you have an email list or links in the back of your book to your other books?

I've noticed that you have come on before and posted problems with your income, etc. but I don't know if you've addressed issues that people have pointed out in the past. You really need to do that. Also, the world of Kindle is different now that 2 years ago, vastly, hugely different and you haven't changed with the times. You need to change.

/off soapbox

I know its hard. I know its disheartening that what was good enough before suddenly isn't working. But it is what it is.  

Also, have you thought of bundling your work?  Some of your older stuff together?  Maybe you should do that and price it low as a loss leader.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah, they were multiple author bundles. I'm thinking of switching to non-fiction. At least then any old fiction book will do


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

All his books showed up on his author page.  However,  dangerous game has the odd price of 2.51.  Again good luck. And do you have any social media presence?


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

deedawning said:


> How're we supposed to compete


Not "on price"! 

There's a whole world of "other readers" out there for whom price (within reason) is barely a concern at all. My cheapest book is $8.99 on Kindle.



deedawning said:


> My question is how are we supposed to compete with such unfair competition?


You get to choose against whom/what you compete.

There are many different markets.



deedawning said:


> By now readers feel entitled to free or almost free books.


There are other markets, too.

Trade publishing is expanding at the same rate as self-publishing, and their prices aren't reducing at all, while their sales are increasing.

When you self-publish, you're competing with other publishers (as well as with other writers). It's up to each of us how, and with whom, and in which markets, we choose to compete.

The low prices of Mazdas don't appear to stop Aston Martin and Bentley from selling cars.

Dan C. Rinnert could make a point like this even standing on his head.


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## ♨ (Jan 9, 2012)

If I want to read a story with a wizard detective, I can grab any 99 cent or even free book that's out there.  There's probably a ton of them.

If I want to read a story about Harry Dresden, I have to pay whatever Jim Butcher or his publisher sets as the price for the book.

There may be competition for a books in a specific genre, but authors have a monopoly on their own characters.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Hi X, 
* None of the covers shown are filtered but I have a dozen or so shorter works in the dungeon.
* Curious about what you didn't like about the covers. Only the one on the far right is out of use.
* I'd love to go on forums but I barely have time to come on K Boards every couple weeks.
* I have a few: 'Consequences where I haven't even started the forth book in two years, 'Sensual Awakenings' which I released in June. Sold good at first, but it's fading and lastly a serial series called The Televangelist. It's the Bastard Preacher cover in the sig. 
* I do have covers and in some cases blurbs about other books in the back of my books but usually not links.

I spent months setting up a tweeter retweet campaign, send out a hundred or more tweets a day, but so far haven't seen any noticeable results.

Yes, I could probably do more, but I'm so bummed out I can barely thinks straight. Why would a buyer buy a single 60k word book for even the rock bottom price of $2.99 from me when they can get 10 full length novels for 99 cents. Things in the ebook market keep getting worse & worse

Thanks for your suggestions. I will take them under advisement

Ciao


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> All his books showed up on his author page. However, dangerous game has the odd price of 2.51. Again good luck. And do you have any social media presence?


The 2.51 is a price match from Google. I noticed Zon is cutting back on price matches a lot. And they resist price matching any filtered books.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have heard that tweets don't work.  Any other media presence?  Oh and why would I buy you instead of a bundle.  Because you are a great writer or you got me hooked on  your series.  Or both.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

deedawning said:


> Hi X,
> * None of the covers shown are filtered but I have a dozen or so shorter works in the dungeon.
> * Curious about what you didn't like about the covers. Only the one on the far right is out of use.
> * I'd love to go on forums but I barely have time to come on K Boards every couple weeks.
> ...


I don't know the erotica market well enough to help you. I was talking more generally. I'm sorry that you feel so bummed and I'm sure you hardly have the energy for it, but you should look at that forum and ask questions there. They would know for sure. Also 60k of EROTICA? Good gods, man, that's insane! People pay $2.99 for 5k of erotica! You might want to think about that. And think about how much happier you'll feel with a plan instead of feeling like you're at the end of your rope!

Good luck, my friend!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Oh and if it makes a difference,  I read single books faster than the bundles.  I mean as far as getting around to them.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> Not "on price"!
> 
> There's a whole world of "other readers" out there for whom price (within reason) is barely a concern at all. My cheapest book is $8.99 on Kindle.
> 
> ...


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I have heard that tweets don't work. Any other media presence? Oh and why would I buy you instead of a bundle. Because you are a great writer or you got me hooked on your series. Or both.


You are speaking hypothetically right?

Maybe I'm just in a bum mood, but I putting in so much time and seem to get nowhere. And now I find out I'm competing against 10 cent novels. There has to be an easier way.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Actually Dee, I have not read any of your books yet, but yes there are a select few authors that I will spend good money on.  You are now on my reading list.
If you have a Facebook page,  friend me and see what other authors in your genre are doing.  I have many groups and author pages on my Facebook.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

X. Aratare said:


> I don't know the erotica market well enough to help you. I was talking more generally. I'm sorry that you feel so bummed and I'm sure you hardly have the energy for it, but you should look at that forum and ask questions there. They would know for sure. Also 60k of EROTICA? Good gods, man, that's insane! People pay $2.99 for 5k of erotica! You might want to think about that. And think about how much happier you'll feel with a plan instead of feeling like you're at the end of your rope!
> 
> Good luck, my friend!


No, no, I write erotic romance and other things beside Erotica. I'd say the longest erotic book I have is under 18K. I have a dozen or more erotic books. Some have done ok for me and some very good erotic books have been a disappointment. Also erotic books are harder to promote. I'm eventually going to put all my erotic titles on Selena Kitt's new site.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Actually Dee, I have not read any of your books yet, but yes there are a select few authors that I will spend good money on. You are now on my reading list.
> If you have a Facebook page, friend me and see what other authors in your genre are doing. I have many groups and author pages on my Facebook.


I do have a facebook page, but I'm afraid most of my efforts have been directed at Tweeter. How do I find your FB page?


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Hi X,
> * None of the covers shown are filtered but I have a dozen or so shorter works in the dungeon.
> * Curious about what you didn't like about the covers. Only the one on the far right is out of use.
> * I'd love to go on forums but I barely have time to come on K Boards every couple weeks.
> ...


Dee, categorize your books outside of erotica. Seriously. You're trying to compete with "His Naughty Little Brat Gets a Spanking" and "Lesbian Three-way with the Alien Tentacle Monster" and that's just not your market. You've got what appear to be good novel-length that would fit well in categories like women's fiction and romance and humor. Spend some time poking around outside of the erotica categories and look for places that are a better fit. Change your keywords up to match and I'll bet you see an improvement. Don't waste your time on Twitter and other social media until you've got a fan base started. You probably don't need to do anything right now except get a mailing list going. But your biggest problem is that the books I looked at just don't belong in erotica.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

deedawning said:


> I do have a facebook page, but I'm afraid most of my efforts have been directed at Tweeter. How do I find your FB page?


Same name and avatar as here.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> Dee, categorize your books outside of erotica. Seriously. You're trying to compete with "His Naughty Little Brat Gets a Spanking" and "Lesbian Three-way with the Alien Tentacle Monster" and that's just not your market. You've got what appear to be good novel-length that would fit well in categories like women's fiction and romance and humor. Spend some time poking around outside of the erotica categories and look for places that are a better fit. Change your keywords up to match and I'll bet you see an improvement. Don't waste your time on Twitter and other social media until you've got a fan base started. You probably don't need to do anything right now except get a mailing list going. But your biggest problem is that the books I looked at just don't belong in erotica.


Hey thanks, Kelli, I'll give a try. I have been backing off erotica anyway, by making it a second, third or forth instead of a primary genre. I like your suggestion. It can't hurt. Unless Master ZON doesn't approve.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

deedawning said:


> Today I paid attention and I found bundles of five, seven even ten full length novels for sale for 99 cents. That's 3.5 cents net per novel on a ten book bundle. Previously I'd thought they were mostly crap and short stories but today I checked and they were decent 200 page plus stories with decent reviews. My question is how are we supposed to compete with such unfair competition?


It's competition, but not unfair, it's a strategy. If you are referring to a bundle of 10 science fiction romances advertised on one of the email promotion services it is mostly first in series and therefore most of those books would probably be free from many of those authors. The big bundles, especially if established authors are joining together, can hit the NYT bestseller list and allows the authors to tag themselves as NYT bestsellers. These techniques also work in mainstream publishing: when Lisa See had a new book coming out her publisher was offering her back catalogue on Nook for 63p each (including VAT), which is good pricing for Bloomsbury published work.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> It's competition, but not unfair, it's a strategy. If you are referring to a bundle of 10 science fiction romances advertised on one of the email promotion services it is mostly first in series and therefore most of those books would probably be free from many of those authors. The big bundles, especially if established authors are joining together, can hit the NYT bestseller list and allows the authors to tag themselves as NYT bestsellers. These techniques also work in mainstream publishing: when Lisa See had a new book coming out her publisher was offering her back catalogue on Nook for 63p each (including VAT), which is good pricing for Bloomsbury published work.


No there are tons of bundles. the ones I looked at were romance, though I think the ten book on was a mixture. I don't remember how I came across them but I was pulling up one of my books and there they were, about a half dozen. What you said makes sense but I looked up the first two of the ten book bundle and they were for sale for 4.99 & 2,99 respectively. The fisrt one was a two part and the bundle may have offered it for that reason. If I can locate it I'll take a closer look.

Thanks


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Hey thanks, Kelli, I'll give a try. I have been backing off erotica anyway, by making it a second, third or forth instead of a primary genre. I like your suggestion. It can't hurt. Unless Master ZON doesn't approve.


The problem is that if you categorize it at all as erotica on Amazon, you can't categorize it as anything else. Same on Kobo, and some of the other smaller distributors. You're probably better off avoiding it completely.


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## vlmain (Aug 10, 2011)

deedawning said:


> I'm thinking of switching to non-fiction. At least then any old fiction book will do


I'm not sure what you mean, here. Did you mean to say any old nonfiction book will do? Either way, as a nonfiction writer, I can tell you it isn't any easier in nonfiction. You're still dealing with permafree, .99 bundles, and books from writers with a lot more name recognition than us. And I can say with absolute certainty that any old nonfiction book with not do--it still has to be good enough to stand out from all the other books in its space.



deedawning said:


> Why would a buyer buy a single 60k word book for even the rock bottom price of $2.99 from me when they can get 10 full length novels for 99 cents.


Because people like me are more interested in the quality of the story than its price. I buy a lot of books. Most of the time, I pay full price. I have downloaded a few freebies, but most of the time, I pay whatever the price is when I find something I want to read. I've only purchased two bundles--ever!



deedawning said:


> I spent months setting up a tweeter retweet campaign, send out a hundred or more tweets a day, but so far haven't seen any noticeable results.


That may actually be part of the problem. Most people don't want to be bombarded with hundreds of tweets. I pretty quickly unfollow people who tweet too much. It makes it really hard to find tweets I'm interested in when they get buried under all the posts from serial tweeters. Try cutting back to only a couple tweets a day, and make them interesting with only a moderate amount of promoting and see what happens.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2014)

Those bundles are marketing tools and not so much about the profit. Most of them are also short-lived, such as 30 or 90 days. If you want to compete, get in one or organize one and see if it helps your sales.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

KelliWolfe said:


> The problem is that if you categorize it at all as erotica on Amazon, you can't categorize it as anything else. Same on Kobo, and some of the other smaller distributors. You're probably better off avoiding it completely.


I undersatand, I'll see what can do with euphemisms like you mentioned
Thanks again


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## JETaylor (Jan 25, 2011)

deedawning said:


> Why would a buyer buy a single 60k word book for even the rock bottom price of $2.99 from me when they can get 10 full length novels for 99 cents.


Because as an author you offer something unique and compelling within the pages of an equally intriguing packaging. The content better be as free of errors as humanly possible as well because that will kill sales in the long run.

Do you know who your target market is and how to reach them?

For me, my ideal target market is the Supernatural fandom because my books cover a great deal of the paranormal aspects found within that show, but more importantly, they build on the character's relationships - which is the driver for this fandom more so than the paranormal events.

On the twitter note - if I got a hundred tweets a day of buy me, buy me, you would lose me as a contact. Now if you were setting up interesting and fun tweets to go throughout the day - that's a whole different angle. Engaging with the readers instead of pounding them to buy your stuff is what is necessary.

I don't know what you have done in the past as far as setting yourself apart from the group, but that and a little bit of luck is needed.

I don't make what I did back in 2012 either, the mad rush to buy ebooks has evened out. The rate of downloads was astronomical. It's more reasonable now - but that shouldn't be the driver for you. Like Cinisajoy pointed out, just keep writing.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

:-x said:


> Those bundles are marketing tools and not so much about the profit. Most of them are also short-lived, such as 30 or 90 days. If you want to compete, get in one or organize one and see if it helps your sales.


I thought about that, but see no purpose to them other than name recognition. The Bundle may rise in the ratings, but the individual books won't benefit. Anyway if I did decide to try it do you know where I could get the artwork done?


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Mot of us readers don't fit in the either or categories. Most of us buy books in all prices. I am not one to buy a lot of bundles anymore. I have reasons for that and I am a huge romance reader so there are a few of those. I don't like reading a file with 10 books on my kindle. It messes up everything as far as locations, time to read, etc. Trying to liberate them and then separate the file into single books in calibre is really frustrating and often beyond my skill if the formatting was done really bad. 
I also found that often I end up reading one book of the bundle and then never go back to it. And often that one book was either on sale for 99 cents at some point or even free. So I didn't need to get the bundle. Many bundles consist of books that are often on sale or free, so basically used as another marketing tool by the author. 

I bought a lot of sale books over the years, especially the last two years. 99 cents to 2.99. But I also bought books I really wanted for 5.99 and 7.99. If I want to read a specific author, there is no substitute. No bundle is going to make me not want to read an author I want to read, or a book I want to read. So I get free, library loans, I have subscriptions to KU and Scribd, I buy books on sale and not on sale. I think most of us readers are all over the place like that. 

Of course if I don't know books or authors exist, my eyeballs never get on it. So there is that. 

If I like an author, I'll keep reading them. If their books are on sale great, if not, I'll figure something out. Nothing stands between me and a book I want to read. Well maybe if the book is out of print, not in ebook format and the used 25 year old paperbacks are $80. Then I am out.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> It's competition, but not unfair, it's a strategy. If you are referring to a bundle of 10 science fiction romances advertised on one of the email promotion services it is mostly first in series and therefore most of those books would probably be free from many of those authors. The big bundles, especially if established authors are joining together, can hit the NYT bestseller list and allows the authors to tag themselves as NYT bestsellers. These techniques also work in mainstream publishing: when Lisa See had a new book coming out her publisher was offering her back catalogue on Nook for 63p each (including VAT), which is good pricing for Bloomsbury published work.


You were right. I found it and checked. Here's what I looked at 'Romance Super Bundle' and the first book was part one of two and books 2 -5 were free. I didn't bother looking any further.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

I'd rather pay 2.99 for one book I want than .99 for 10 books I don't want.

Just saying.

People will buy your books if they're hooked on your writing. The trouble is getting enough exposure to give people a chance to get hooked on you. That's my theory at least.

And free. Free is as cheap as it gets. Making the first book of a series permafree is a tried and true technique. Again, for me it's just a theory. But I have a good feeling about it.


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 29, 2014)

You're not competing with anybody.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Why do people pay $9.99 or more for a trade-published ebook when they can get thousands for free? Because they want to read it.
> 
> It's not so long ago that many people were saying that books had to be priced at $0.99, or they wouldn't sell at all. Indie prices have been going up, not falling.


I don't find it that way at all. It happens all the time. You get a book up in the rating at 99cents or free and as soon as you raise it to as little as $2.99 sales dry up or slow down substantially. example, lowered price of April Showers to 99cents in prep for bknights promo and to my surprise it caught on and sold fifty copies in one day w/o promo & got to 6900 in ratings. This is a book I used to sell for 3 & 4.99 and when I raised it to 2.99 it sold maybe five copies in a week and now it's #148,000 and sinking.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

First, take a deep breath. 

Now, remember that there is no such thing as unfair competition. Anything they can do, you can do too. And make no mistake: the publishing business is as competitive as it is cooperative. People only have so many dollars to spend on books. When they buy your book, they are buying that instead of buying something else. Often, that something else is another book.

OK, now also take this to heart: ebook prices are not going down. They're going up. Average single-title prices on indie ebooks in the top 100 lists by genre have been climbing. Indies are realizing that people really WILL buy their books for $3.99, $4.99, even $5.99 - and many successful indies are raising their prices.

Don't worry so much about these bundles. It's an awesome tactic, and gathers some new readers. But many readers hate bundles. I tend to avoid them, myself. They're annoying to try to find the right book while you're reading them. They are sub-par in many ways, compared to single title volumes. And the people using them are using them as promos, to draw new readers into their series of novels. It's sort of "try this one for almost nothing - and if you like it, here's ten more novels in the series for $4.99 each!"

Focus on writing superb books and getting them up there for readers to find. That's still the #1 most effective marketing tool you can have.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah, I'm finding that most of the bundles are series or free or both.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

deedawning said:


> I don't find it that way at all. It happens all the time. You get a book up in the rating at 99cents or free and as soon as you raise it to as little as $2.99 sales dry up or slow down substantially.


Depends on a lot of things, though. Particularly genre.

I've never seen any real benefit from cutting prices to $0.99 in SF, though my books tend to sell OK for the first 2-3 months and then settle down to selling a copy or two now and again. I suspect readers finding them is more of a problem than the price I'm charging.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

artofstu said:


> You're not competing with anybody.


You can say that again. Some people can turn chopped liver into gold and I can change it back.


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## Thatonegirl (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks for posting that template Kit.

I agree with Atunah as far as what I buy. I buy books at all price points. If it's something I want to read because the blurb or  Look Inside hooked me I will pay. I  also have KU subscription I still buy books for 8.99, 2.99, 4.99, etc.

Additionally I have purchased a few bundles, usually because I'm looking to find new authors to read. I like a story in a bundle I am going to go looking for other books by the author.

Pack in the 90's I remember buying Love In Vein II. it was an anthology put together by Poppy Z Brite. Who I loved.  The very first story was so Snow, Glass, Apples by Neil Gaiman, and author I hadn't read before, well I loved that story. I went out the next day and bought four or five more books by Mr. Gaiman. I raved to my friends about how much I liked him and most of them ran out and bought his books too. All these years later not only am I still a devoted fan, but I buy his children's books for my godchildren and niece.  Behold the power of teaming with other authors. The profit on that story may not be much but if you gain fans it may well be worth it.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

vlmain said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, here. Did you mean to say any old nonfiction book will do? Either way, as a nonfiction writer, I can tell you it isn't any easier in nonfiction. You're still dealing with permafree, .99 bundles, and books from writers with a lot more name recognition than us. And I can say with absolute certainty that any old nonfiction book with not do--it still has to be good enough to stand out from all the other books in its space.
> 
> Because people like me are more interested in the quality of the story than its price. I buy a lot of books. Most of the time, I pay full price. I have downloaded a few freebies, but most of the time, I pay whatever the price is when I find something I want to read. I've only purchased two bundles--ever!
> 
> That may actually be part of the problem. Most people don't want to be bombarded with hundreds of tweets. I pretty quickly unfollow people who tweet too much. It makes it really hard to find tweets I'm interested in when they get buried under all the posts from serial tweeters. Try cutting back to only a couple tweets a day, and make them interesting with only a moderate amount of promoting and see what happens.


I've already wrote one nonfiction-like-fiction book titled _Gender Wars-War on Women_ and a straight nonfiction booklet, _How Fox News KO'd the Republican Party._ I'm a political junkie and there are readers out there who devour political books


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## Charlie Ward (Sep 29, 2014)

When I go to the comic book store I like to get the comics that are 25 cents. It's a great deal! But while I'm there, I also get the ones that are 4 bucks. There's more to entertainment value than price.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm all for for holding the line on price, but once your book or books approach a million, doing nothing banishes your books to eternal obscurity


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

I've yet to purchase a 99 cent boxed set. I've downloaded free ones a few times and I regret it because I know I'll never get a chance to read them all.
The 99 cent boxed set would work for genres like romance, whose readers are voracious. I downloaded a free boxed set of romances a while back, and they were all going to be short stories or novella length. And even earlier on, long before I restarted writing, I downloaded a boxed set of historical romances that had been originally released back in the late 80's-early 90's.
Most people know you get what you pay for.
Just setting your book prices lower doesn't make for better sales. To get your books out of the rankings dumps, try a promo.
I'm also working very hard on my keywords. I hear so many writers swear by them.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

The multi-author bundles with single, full-length novels are almost ALWAYS full of loss-leaders that are the first books in series that are also published as stand-alones.

Only idiots who like Ramen give away their money-makers.  There aren't many of these...at least not for very long.  And people that dumb rarely write well.


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## SB James (May 21, 2014)

ʬ said:


> The multi-author bundles with single, full-length novels are almost ALWAYS full of loss-leaders that are the first books in series that are also published as stand-alones.
> 
> Only idiots who like Ramen give away their money-makers. There aren't many of these...at least not for very long. And people that dumb rarely write well.


^this^


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## Michael Buckley (Jun 24, 2013)

Two years ago I was a different person then I am today. I made 120k a year fixing A/C units in two wars. My income last year was 400 dollars, I made that almost in a day before, now a whole year.

If I saw a book price .99 to 2.99 I for the most part ignored them. Some books got my attention. Example, if I wanted a book on dogs, I would search and weed through all the selections and then pick.  I bought books to read normally priced no lower than 4.99 and normally bought at 7.99 or higher.

I would have not wasted my time on .99 to 2.99. Now .99 to 2.99 is a lot of money for me. I bought book authors I knew and liked, W.E.B Griffin, Patterson, Roberts, Sparks, King, Baldaciii, Koontz and ... I feel people who buy .99 and who buy 4.99 are not the same buyers for the most part. A reader should look at the inside sample and go from there. I never sell anything at.99 they are not my buyers. I up the price and I get sales. I tried a lot of times to sell books at .99 it did not work for me. We have people here that have good luck with .99 sales. I would not even worry about it, don't drop your prices, write more stuff until  the readers find something they like. It might be ten to twenty books before they find the one that they like. A book could sit for a year and never have a sale and for no reason start selling. It's hard to gauge what readers will like.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

ʬ said:


> Only idiots who like Ramen give away their money-makers. There aren't many of these...at least not for very long. And people that dumb rarely write well.


Excuse me while I pass along this bit of wisdom to those authors making 6-figure incomes who routinely put their books with 200+ reviews with 4.5-star averages that are money-makers selling briskly as standalones for $3.99 and $4.99 into our 99c boxes. They'll be pleased to know they're either idiots or that the books in the boxes - some of which are being picked up by the Amazon imprints - are by-and-large utter crap. Sure, many are first-in-series books, but we also have brand-new novels exclusive to the boxes, standalone bestselling books, and standalone series books from deep within their respective series.

I kinda thought the authors and I knew what we were doing after having sold about 450,000 of these multi-author box sets so far this year. But no. Looks like we're just all dumb hacks.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm in a new bundle that is one of three, officially announced tomorrow, pretty much a who's who in romance, feel very lucky to be included. Interestingly, all-new content, and all novella or novel length, 25k-plus. Big, meaty chunks of new content by bestsellers. It's even worse--all for charity, nobody earns a dime! But everyone's doing it. I think there are different goals for bundles, but certainly visibility is a major one. We'll see how it works, but it took me about one second to say yes. I'm pretty confident it'll be a good thing.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Excuse me while I pass along this bit of wisdom to those authors making 6-figure incomes who routinely put their books with 200+ reviews with 4.5-star averages that are money-makers selling briskly as standalones for $3.99 and $4.99 into our 99c boxes. They'll be pleased to know they're either idiots or that the books in the boxes - some of which are being picked up by the Amazon imprints - are by-and-large utter crap. Sure, many are first-in-series books, but we also have brand-new novels exclusive to the boxes, standalone bestselling books, and standalone series books from deep within their respective series.
> 
> I kinda thought the authors and I knew what we were doing after having sold about 450,000 of these multi-author box sets so far this year. But no. Looks like we're just all dumb hacks.


You've given me a good giggle with that post. The one thing that beats me about a lot of authors is their lack of business acumen. You would think that the concept of a loss-leader was a new thing.

As for the OP - the Christmas Paranormal box-set which was posted about here on KBoards, featuring some of our members, looks great. Twenty stories by highly rated authors for only .99 - amazing value. So - I posted the link to the deal on my Facebook page and several fiends/readers have gone ahead and downloaded it. Why wouldn't you if it was only .99?

Well, I didn't - cos I'm not interested in being ravished by werewolf's or thrown over the kitchen table by a charged-up vampire. It could be 100 stories, free, and I'm still not interested. We can all find reasons to be despondent - this is not one of them. These types of deals drive traffic to Zon, long may they continue. And as proof of that, one of my friends went out and bought a Kindle yesterday after she saw the deal mentioned, and read comments from many others singing their praises of Kindle.

So it goes back to what Phoenix is referring to - box sets generate interest, they generate traffic, they introduce authors to readers, and they generate read through to other paid titles. To make it even better - in this case twenty switched on authors have combined in an ultimate marketing drive - no wonder they are at the top of the charts and likely to stay there for a while.

Start a thread and see if you can get some other authors to join you in a similar venture - it may be the boost you're needing. Loss-leaders make money - why else do you think businesses offer them?


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> As I said above, once your book rank approaches a million, the problem is less likely to be price than that no-one is seeing the book. Cutting price may work in a price-conscious genre, but it's unlikely to make much difference otherwise, so long as it's in a reasonable range for that genre. Most people who find it and like it will probably buy it... but few will find it.


Agreed, I'm guessing once you get over say 4-500,000, visibility is substantially lowered and your in a quardrt of what to do about it.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

My main money-maker brings me $800 a day.  I'd need a 10-author boxed set to sell 27,000 copies a day to equal that.

Authors are putting in loss leaders, just like pulsing to free.  They're strategically trying to hit lists.  They AREN'T just going, "Wheeeeeeeee!  Boxed set!  Let's stick whatever in here!"


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I have heard that tweets don't work. Any other media presence? Oh and why would I buy you instead of a bundle. Because you are a great writer or you got me hooked on your series. Or both.


Funny you said that. It was Wayne Stinnett that got me into it and he said it was his main promotion tool. The reason I bring this up is I saw you read his books when I friended you.


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## theaatkinson (Sep 22, 2010)

just wanted to chime in to say how much I'm loving this thread. Phoenix, awesome post!


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## Isabelking (Jan 16, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> First, take a deep breath.
> 
> Now, remember that there is no such thing as unfair competition. Anything they can do, you can do too. And make no mistake: the publishing business is as competitive as it is cooperative. People only have so many dollars to spend on books. When they buy your book, they are buying that instead of buying something else. Often, that something else is another book.
> 
> ...


I think this is one of the best posts I've seen on here!

Boxed sets have been around for ages, in one form or another. I have not seen any proof that they are changing the buying habits of the general readership. If they were, then the vast majority of bestsellers, or all bestsellers, would be boxed sets. That is not the case.

It doesn't help anything to look at what other people are doing and use it as a reason to stress yourself out. You have no control over what they are doing. What you do control is your own books and your own writing.

I say this over and over again, like a broken record, but it is what I did and what helped propel me to a very comfortable six figure income: look at the bestseller lists. See what types of books are selling well, that you also think could you could write well. For instance - New Adult sells really well but I can't write it worth a damn.

Then, read some bestsellers in that sub-genre and study them very carefully to see how the authors tell their stories and what the expectations of that sub-genre are.

If you have newer books that are not selling well, you can always post links here and ask for advice - as long as you are willing to listen to the advice and not take it personally.

Believe it or not, if you have a thick skin, reading your reviews on Amazon can be helpful. If a number of people are bringing up the same thing, I'd pay attention. I've had a few points mentioned in my early reviews, which really helped me shape my writing more to reader expectations.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Dee, This is just my $0.02.. but I know me, I am a cover lover.. If your covers are decent, then I look at blurb. Honest, not one of your covers grabs my attention, if anything I look at your covers and think... EW! And your "Bastard Preacher?" I read the premise and had the same thought, there's no way I would want to read that.
I read a LOT of E-rom, and not one of those looks like something I would want to pick up.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

deedawning said:


> Funny you said that. It was Wayne Stinnett that got me into it and he said it was his main promotion tool. The reason I bring this up is I saw you read his books when I friended you.


And yet, I'm pretty sure Cin doesn't read him because she saw a tweet.... 

Betsy


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

deedawning said:


> Funny you said that. It was Wayne Stinnett that got me into it and he said it was his main promotion tool. The reason I bring this up is I saw you read his books when I friended you.


I do read Wayne's books. I love Wayne. But that doesn't mean his strategies work for everyone. Matter of fact, he is the only one I have heard of tweets working for. It may be that he is hitting his target audience. He is a retired Marine and does many things with them now.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

No, it was not a tweet.  I will tell you how Wayne pretty much became an auto read for me.  I met him here.  I was debatable whether I would read his books or not.  Another of my Facebook friends (that I also met here) made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  He told me to get Wayne's book and if I didn't like it, he would buy me any other e-book I wanted.  Needless to say I didn't get a book from my friend. 

Oh and Wayne does a lot more than just auto-tweet.  How much did he spend for three days of advertising when he dropped his new book to 99 cents.  Come to think of it,  this makes twice in a month and a half.  His last big promotion was October 7th .  I know I missed it and had to wait on this one.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

************


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I have bought bundles just because of one author that was in it.  Or in one case several authors.  Make that more than one case.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

bookchick said:


> Thanks for posting that template Kit.
> 
> I agree with Atunah as far as what I buy. I buy books at all price points. If it's something I want to read because the blurb or Look Inside hooked me I will pay. I also have KU subscription I still buy books for 8.99, 2.99, 4.99, etc.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that. I hope there's million buyers like you.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

SB James said:


> I've yet to purchase a 99 cent boxed set. I've downloaded free ones a few times and I regret it because I know I'll never get a chance to read them all.
> The 99 cent boxed set would work for genres like romance, whose readers are voracious. I downloaded a free boxed set of romances a while back, and they were all going to be short stories or novella length. And even earlier on, long before I restarted writing, I downloaded a boxed set of historical romances that had been originally released back in the late 80's-early 90's.
> Most people know you get what you pay for.
> Just setting your book prices lower doesn't make for better sales. To get your books out of the rankings dumps, try a promo.
> I'm also working very hard on my keywords. I hear so many writers swear by them.


I read a book that had a section on keywords and I've used their suggestions where I could.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I love Wayne.


"I saw him first".  



KevinMcLaughlin said:


> People only have so many dollars to spend on books. When they buy your book, they are buying that instead of buying something else.


This is completely true of some markets. And entirely untrue of others. (As can easily be seen by spending a whole day watching what people buy in any big bookstore in any big city center).


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Michael Buckley said:


> Two years ago I was a different person then I am today. I made 120k a year fixing A/C units in two wars. My income last year was 400 dollars, I made that almost in a day before, now a whole year.
> 
> If I saw a book price .99 to 2.99 I for the most part ignored them. Some books got my attention. Example, if I wanted a book on dogs, I would search and weed through all the selections and then pick. I bought books to read normally priced no lower than 4.99 and normally bought at 7.99 or higher.
> 
> I would have not wasted my time on .99 to 2.99. Now .99 to 2.99 is a lot of money for me. I bought book authors I knew and liked, W.E.B Griffin, Patterson, Roberts, Sparks, King, Baldaciii, Koontz and ... I feel people who buy .99 and who buy 4.99 are not the same buyers for the most part. A reader should look at the inside sample and go from there. I never sell anything at.99 they are not my buyers. I up the price and I get sales. I tried a lot of times to sell books at .99 it did not work for me. We have people here that have good luck with .99 sales. I would not even worry about it, don't drop your prices, write more stuff until the readers find something they like. It might be ten to twenty books before they find the one that they like. A book could sit for a year and never have a sale and for no reason start selling. It's hard to gauge what readers will like.


Frankly, more stuff is not the answer for me. I have so much stuff (140 titles [1/2 my own]) it drives me batty. I need to get rid of some of them. If I could find a couple good promoters to each take a handful of the most promising tiles for a piece of the actions. I'd do it.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> And yet, I'm pretty sure Cin doesn't read him because she saw a tweet....
> 
> Betsy


No, but ostensibly he uses tweeter to market his books and he does alright. As for the tweets they're all varied and on five separate accounts. If any tweets are repeated it's no more than once a day. there's also other non-book, non-marketing tweets mixed in.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Excuse me while I pass along this bit of wisdom to those authors making 6-figure incomes who routinely put their books with 200+ reviews with 4.5-star averages that are money-makers selling briskly as standalones for $3.99 and $4.99 into our 99c boxes. They'll be pleased to know they're either idiots or that the books in the boxes - some of which are being picked up by the Amazon imprints - are by-and-large utter crap. Sure, many are first-in-series books, but we also have brand-new novels exclusive to the boxes, standalone bestselling books, and standalone series books from deep within their respective series.
> 
> I kinda thought the authors and I knew what we were doing after having sold about 450,000 of these multi-author box sets so far this year. But no. Looks like we're just all dumb hacks.


I take it you are involved with one of the bundlers. Other than exposure are there any other advantages to the author to bundling?


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Phoenix Sullivan is a publisher/author that is too busy working with other authors and putting together box sets to write the sequel to Vet Tales.


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## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

Right, I can't help myself. I'mma run down things in a list, and I hope you'll take what I suggest as suggestions for things to do, rather than the opposite, which seems to be your MO.

[list type=decimal]
[*]It's Twitter.
[*]Tweets that are on-topic, interesting, novel will gain you followers. If, when you have a new release or to a promotion, you send out exactly 1 tweet about it, they won't kill you.
[*]If you don't have one already, you need a newsletter. Actually, ideally you need one newsletter for each genre. And then you need to only send out a message when you have something new out.
[*]I am not aware of genderswap being a popular subcat in romance. Indeed, if it's anything, it's a niche of erotica.
[*]Selling romance openly as a man is bad for sales.
[*]When you have romance and erotica on the same name, you need to make it very clear which is which. That is generally done with branding and that means very clear covers.
[*]I can't read most of your titles. I should be able to see, clearly, your name and title when I look at a thumbnail image of your book.
[*]Have someone with rock-solid grammar and punctuation proof your blurbs. In the genderswappy "romance" you have random commas everywhere, and none where they should be.
[*]Your best blurb (of what I clicked through to from you sig) reads like an elevator pitch. It should read like a REALLY INTERESTING movie ad. Just, not "In a World Where Chicks Turn Into Dudes" kind of movie ads. You want to introduce people, in an interesting way, and your problem, again, in an interesting way. You want to ask a question or two, like in a pitch, but less passive.
[*]Your blurb should be the very first thing in that chunk of your page. Not a warning (which can get you booted to the adult dongeon), not an uncited "review". Unless you can put something there like "From the Fertile mind of New York Times Bestselling Author (name goes here)" or a review, with citation, from a reputable site or publication, your blurb is the very first thing they should read.
[*]Covers--and the images, fonts, colors used on them--signal different things to readers. If I see two dudes alone on a cover, without shirts, I expect gay romance or porn. Multiple chicks is the same, but lesbian romance or erotica. When I see two dudes and a chick, in something marketed as a romance? That book needs to be menage. The second guy could be a side-part of the relationship, or a full partner, but he needs to be solidly involved. Also, clearly indicated in the blurb.
[*]Look over romance, if you really want and can write that. Pick a sub-genre. JUST ONE. That might be menage vampires, it might be lesbian romance, whatever. But pick one and stick to it. Contemp billionaire alpha-hole readers probably don't want to read about sweet gaywolves. 
[*]Bundles are a marketing tactic. Much like twitter, facebook, newsletters, and websites. If you join one, new readers will find you. They may like you, they may not, but it's advertising that pays you money, rather than the other way around.
[*]For the love of all that's sane, happy, unblocked, and selling in the world, stop stating that there is lots of explicit sex in your books. It comes across as very blunt, crass, and doesn't indicate what you think it does. There are other phrases that work better with romance readers (and probably female erotica readers, too). Like "when their romance reaches the boiling point" or "as things heat up" or or or.
[*]Amazon doesn't like dirty words in blurbs. That includes excerpts. You have lots in yours. Get rid of them. Likewise, the first couple pages of look-inside on a romance should be clean.
[*]last point for today, because I have work to do... Try to connect with readers and writers. Online, out in meatspace, whatever. But dear, sweet Santa Claus, treat them like people, not potential sales. Talk about your life (or your penname's life), stuff going on around you, things that aren't political landmines, stuff that's unlikely to offend. Share other people's books, hang out in their online spaces, and don't pimp your books out. On your own site/ media/ whatever you can post links to your books when you first publish, if you are running a sale, or when you're doing a concentrated ad campaign. Otherwise it's annoying and counterproductive. You actually can turn people into 100% "will never buy" non-customers.
[/list]

Right. This is a lot of stuff. You can do one or two things, and sales may get better. You can do lots of them, well, and sales may get better. You can keep doing what you're doing, and blaming other people who have studied and actually understand marketing their product, and your sales will probably not get better. My 2 cents.

-j.

ps-I know someone is going to bring up the whole "your book is ranked in the gabillions, what do you know", to which I will simply state, that's an abandoned name, and openly sharing successful pen names on this board is like sales suicide for all but the biggest sellers.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I would also say the book in Jen's signature is in one of the biggest categories on Amazon.  And she is spot on with all her advice.
My apologies to Jayn for butchering her name.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

deedawning said:


> Frankly, more stuff is not the answer for me. I have so much stuff (140 titles [1/2 my own]) it drives me batty. I need to get rid of some of them. If I could find a couple good promoters to each take a handful of the most promising tiles for a piece of the actions. I'd do it.


Are you saying you literally do not want to write more books, and just want your older stuff to start selling well? Because if it hasn't been selling well so far, there's no reason that it would start - unless you take some of the suggestions that people on this board are giving you - such as lazyjayn's excellent list.

I make really good money at this, but I also put out a new book every two to four weeks, and announce it to my newsletter list and Facebook every time. I don't tweet at all. When I waited a long time to release a new book, like 7 weeks - my sales really dropped.

If you feel like you have too much stuff in your backlist, you can always debut a new pen name. And if you do that I'd take Lazyjayn's advice - pick a subgenre of erotica that you like and that also has decent sales (if making more money is your goal), and write exclusively in that.


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## Evan of the R. (Oct 15, 2013)

lazyjayn said:


> Right, I can't help myself. I'mma run down things in a list, and I hope you'll take what I suggest as suggestions for things to do, rather than the opposite, which seems to be your MO.


That right there is about $10,000 dollars' worth of publishing advice. I'd say take it.


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## busywoman (Feb 22, 2014)

A few thoughts looking at your Twitter feed:

Try tweeting less.  Tweet a couple of times a day, not 100. Too frequent tweeting wearies your readers.

Tweet responses to people.  Think "back and forth conversations" now and then. Share a little bit of your life. Think of it as building a fan base. Every fan wants to know about their favorite authors.  Do you like the beach? Are you a mountain biker? Do you paint in your spare time? How does it feel after a long day of writing - how do you unwind? 

A quick analysis of your tweets going back a couple of weeks shows the majority are promotional.

Tweeting highly polarized political views is alienating or boring at least 50% of your audience.  Guaranteed.  It doesn't matter whether you are a Republican or Democrat. In the United States with party lines split fairly close to even, you're going to cause half of Americans to be alienated if you take sides. No matter which side of the aisle you prefer. And readers outside the US will be bored because of your focus on American politics. You're certainly entitled to say whatever you wish. Just recognize that there is a trade-off when it intersects with your livelihood.


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## Thatonegirl (Aug 11, 2014)

I clicked on one of your book "Dangerous Game" it sounds interesting but more along the lines of Judith Krantz or Shirley Conran than romance. Maybe the right readers aren't finding you, because you aren't in the right place.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

BTackitt said:


> Dee, This is just my $0.02.. but I know me, I am a cover lover.. If your covers are decent, then I look at blurb. Honest, not one of your covers grabs my attention, if anything I look at your covers and think... EW! And your "Bastard Preacher?" I read the premise and had the same thought, there's no way I would want to read that.
> I read a LOT of E-rom, and not one of those looks like something I would want to pick up.


You're also a poet (cover lover). So how does that work out for? Are you always happy with the books you pick out by the cover?


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Phoenix Sullivan is a publisher/author that is too busy working with other authors and putting together box sets to write the sequel to Vet Tales.


So the advantage is to one author--her! More pwer to her, I guess.


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## busywoman (Feb 22, 2014)

> I've already wrote one nonfiction-like-fiction book titled Gender Wars-War on Women and a straight nonfiction booklet, How Fox News KO'd the Republican Party. I'm a political junkie and there are readers out there who devour political books


Have you considered using a different pen name and author page for your politics books,vs your other books? Trying to do both under the same name could cause problems.

(1) You will alienate some of your fiction readers (probably half) by writing political views.

(2) Being the author of erotica does not add to your credibility in the realm of politics. It does the opposite. In the world of nonfiction, so much is about author credentials. Set yourself up with a bio that focuses on your keen political insights. Most political players and publications would be hard-pressed to even retweet your tweets because of all the off-color stuff - let alone quote you or allow you to guest post on their sites. If you are going to get into the world of nonfiction, you will need to be quotable and "show-offable" by mainstream political publications.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

lazyjayn said:


> Right, I can't help myself. I'mma run down things in a list, and I hope you'll take what I suggest as suggestions for things to do, rather than the opposite, which seems to be your MO.
> 
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]It's Twitter.
> ...


Hey Lazy jayn, First read through, I'm liking everything you said. Thanks for the help. I get on it in the days to come.


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## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

Also, these new covers that are in your sig now are better-more romance-y, but the rest holds true--can't read most titles or names. And all the rest, too.

Good luck.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

bookchick said:


> I clicked on one of your book "Dangerous Game" it sounds interesting but more along the lines of Judith Krantz or Shirley Conran than romance. Maybe the right readers aren't finding you, because you aren't in the right place.


A Dangerous Game is romance but not until the end. The end is a wonderful HEA and not like the reader would expect.

Everything I write isn't romance. Thanks a Million isn't even close to a romance. It's real life.

When I first started writing around ten years ago, I wrote for myself. Making money was nice but not a consideration. Things changed for the worse when the economy collapsed. but by that time I had a couple dozen titles out.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Are you


lazyjayn said:


> Also, these new covers that are in your sig now are better-more romance-y, but the rest holds true--can't read most titles or names. And all the rest, too.
> 
> Good luck.


 talking about the thumbnails og K Boards or on the book page. I can't make out book info on most sigs.


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## Thatonegirl (Aug 11, 2014)

A romance novel has a romance as the main story, a book with romance at the end only isn't going to meet most romance readers expectations. I would still read it if the story is good it's good.

Judith Krantz had plenty of romance in her books but they weren't romances, she focused on the story of the main characters life, on her journey, and transformation. The main character of course meets a man falls in love and lives happily but that's not a romance novel. I love Ms. Krantz's books and miss those kinds of stories, but I wouldn't look for them in romance.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

deedawning said:


> I can't make out book info on most sigs.


That's one of the ways that you can tell the difference between professional and amateur publishers.

Many self-published authors are amateur publishers, and compete only with other amateur publishers.

You can do everything differently, if you want to.


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## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

Both. The cursive font, in particular, is totally illegible 95% of the time. Use it as an accent, and it's good. Use it for all the letters in the important title words and you might as well swap it out for wingdings.


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

Thatonegirl said:


> A romance novel has a romance as the main story, a book with romance at the end only isn't going to meet most romance readers expectations. I would still read it if the story is good it's good.
> 
> Judith Krantz had plenty of romance in her books but they weren't romances, she focused on the story of the main characters life, on her journey, and transformation. The main character of course meets a man falls in love and lives happily but that's not a romance novel. I love Ms. Krantz's books and miss those kinds of stories, but I wouldn't look for them in romance.


That's a great distinction. But what genre would you call the latter type of book (the Krantz books you describe, for example)?


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

zoe tate said:


> That's one of the ways that you can tell the difference between professional and amateur publishers.


You mean, you can actually read the words on books by amateur publishers  ?

I'm still learning covers myself, but I find many trade-published covers that probably look fine on a print book in a book store look awful at the kind of thumbnail resolutions I regularly see on the Internet. They're used to complex designs that just don't work at 100 pixels across.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Thatonegirl said:


> A romance novel has a romance as the main story, a book with romance at the end only isn't going to meet most romance readers expectations. I would still read it if the story is good it's good.
> 
> Judith Krantz had plenty of romance in her books but they weren't romances, she focused on the story of the main characters life, on her journey, and transformation. The main character of course meets a man falls in love and lives happily but that's not a romance novel. I love Ms. Krantz's books and miss those kinds of stories, but I wouldn't look for them in romance.


You know I'm not even sure I categorized it as romance. It's a pretty wild book really. I remember one reader review said I was going to be the next Shayla Black. Someone I never read.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> You mean, you can actually read the words on books by amateur publishers  ?
> 
> I'm still learning covers myself, but I find many trade-published covers that probably look fine on a print book in a book store look awful at the kind of thumbnail resolutions I regularly see on the Internet. They're used to complex designs that just don't work at 100 pixels across.


That's true for the older covers. The newer covers seem to take it into consideration a lot more. That said, I've seen a few covers designed for ebooks by tradepubs recently that were plain poor design, which shouldn't happen with "professional" designers, right? Colour me sarcastic. History shows that everyone in the industry has made some real bloopers, and awful covers happen everywhere.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

busywoman said:


> A few thoughts looking at your Twitter feed:
> 
> Try tweeting less. Tweet a couple of times a day, not 100. Too frequent tweeting wearies your readers.
> 
> ...


I tweet on 5 separate accounts so its more like a tweet every 20 minutes per account. Wayne said he spaces his tweets eight minutes apart, I assume he means on one account. I've thought about what you said about mixing politics and business. It's probably not a good idea, but I was tweeting politics a long time before I started tweeting my books. All my followers are politically aligned with me. I know that doesn't mean none of those tweets will reach the other side but I imagine it's minimal.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

deedawning said:


> I tweet on 5 separate accounts so its more like a tweet every 20 minutes per account. Wayne said he spaces his tweets eight minutes apart, I assume he means on one account. I've thought about what you said about mixing politics and business. It's probably not a good idea, but I was tweeting politics a long time before I started tweeting my books. All my followers are politically aligned with me. I know that doesn't mean none of those tweets will reach the other side but I imagine it's minimal.





deedawning said:


> I tweet on 5 separate accounts so its more like a tweet every 20 minutes per account. Wayne said he spaces his tweets eight minutes apart, I assume he means on one account. I've thought about what you said about mixing politics and business. It's probably not a good idea, but I was tweeting politics a long time before I started tweeting my books. All my followers are politically aligned with me. I know that doesn't mean none of those tweets will reach the other side but I imagine it's minimal.


Wayne's books sell because people like them. Not because he tweet-bombs. I had him in my feed, but removed his account. I've even gone through the effort of unfollowing everyone who RTs him, it's that over the top annoying. And I use Twitter a lot. Tweeting politics, however, is totally fine. That's what twitter is for. Most pockets of twitter are quite left wing.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> You mean, you can actually read the words on books by amateur publishers  ?
> 
> I'm still learning covers myself, but I find many trade-published covers that probably look fine on a print book in a book store look awful at the kind of thumbnail resolutions I regularly see on the Internet. They're used to complex designs that just don't work at 100 pixels across.


Not to be a smart ass, but your covers break rule #1 of publisher book covers. The author's name should never be larger than the Title. I'm not criticizing you mind you, but that's the rule I learned ages ago. Hey rules change.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Wayne's books sell because people like them. Not because he tweet-bombs. I had him in my feed, but removed his account. I've even gone through the effort of unfollowing everyone who RTs him, it's that over the top annoying. And I use Twitter a lot. Tweeting politics, however, is totally fine. That's what twitter is for. Most pockets of twitter are quite left wing.


I don't know if I'll cut down on the tweets, but I plan on making them more interesting over a period of time. 
I see you're from AU. Where abouts? My daughter lived in the area near Brisbane for two years.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Not to be a smart ass, but your covers break rule #1 of publisher book covers. The author's name should never be larger than the Title. I'm not criticizing you mind you, but that's the rule I learned ages ago. Hey rules change.


Since when? Big name authors almost always have their names in bigger letters than the title.


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## DimpDavis (Aug 23, 2014)

Putting everything else aside, I noticed one thing from page one, no one has addressed. 
You stated that you have little to no CTA's or Call to Actions in the back of your books. 
Fix that and you may see an increase in sales. 
The reader that makes it to the end of your book more than likely enjoyed it and will be looking to read more. 
Make it easy for them and add links for them to buy more. 
Add links to your newsletter, add links to your blog, add links to anything to keep the reader's eyes on you. 
That's my two cents.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

lazyjayn said:


> Both. The cursive font, in particular, is totally illegible 95% of the time. Use it as an accent, and it's good. Use it for all the letters in the important title words and you might as well swap it out for wingdings.


I know what you mean. On _Fancy Lady & the Desperadoes._ Yes that's a little over the top, but not bad enough to say anything to the cover artist who spent a lot of time and effort getting the stairs right.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Edward M. Grant said:


> To be fair, I've never said my covers are great, but they're a big improvement over the ones I had two years ago. The ones on my upcoming books will be about revision four, I think, and I would say some of them look pretty good to me.
> 
> However, if that's rule #1, it's a rule that trade publishers break all the time. Try an Amazon search for 'Stephen King', for example: most of his books have his name much larger than the title.


Yeah they break lots of rules for the big names. Michael Connoley, John Grisham, they don't have to follow the editing rules I learned. In the case of Stephen King, the thinking the name alone will sell the book.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Dick Wolf comes to mind.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

DimpDavis said:


> Putting everything else aside, I noticed one thing from page one, no one has addressed.
> You stated that you have little to no CTA's or Call to Actions in the back of your books.
> Fix that and you may see an increase in sales.
> The reader that makes it to the end of your book more than likely enjoyed it and will be looking to read more.
> ...


I believe I said I book covers, room permitting a blurb but not necessarily a link. I also request a review. I will work on links for the books. The reason I don't have links is I pub on Apple, B&N, Kobo, Google Play and other beside Amazon and I don't want to get them mixed up. But once the book is pubbed I can probably safely add a link


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Dee, 
My best advice is do what is best for you.  
Now having said that,  do not put all your marketing eggs in one basket.  Tweet if you want.  Post something amusing or profound to my Facebook wall  or your wall once every couple of weeks or so.  Buy a cheap ad or 3.  
But don't pick just one and think it will work.  Do multiple things.


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

This is a very good thread; I used to have issues with the .99 cent bundles too. Now I don't care, because I realized they are not hurting me. I'm hurting me. I've had some great advice over the last 6 months from various sources and one thing that stands out is the covers. Mine are being redone as we speak. There's a lot of us hurting for sales or borrows. And I'm no exception. So, I enjoyed reading this thread from start to finish.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Douglas E Wright said:


> This is a very good thread; I used to have issues with the .99 cent bundles too. Now I don't care, because I realized they are not hurting me. I'm hurting me. I've had some great advice over the last 6 months from various sources and one thing that stands out is the covers. Mine are being redone as we speak. There's a lot of us hurting for sales or borrows. And I'm no exception. So, I enjoyed reading this thread from start to finish.


Yes it has been real informative. I hope to try everything.


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## Thatonegirl (Aug 11, 2014)

starkllr said:


> That's a great distinction. But what genre would you call the latter type of book (the Krantz books you describe, for example)?


I've always found them under fiction and literature, or women's fiction, or contemporary fiction.


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## ThomasDiehl (Aug 23, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Yeah they break lots of rules for the big names. Michael Connoley, John Grisham, they don't have to follow the editing rules I learned. In the case of Stephen King, the thinking the name alone will sell the book.


Yepp, that's the point. King gets to have his name on the cover larger than the respective book's title because he's Stephen Freaking King. And with all due respect, most people on here are not.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

ThomasDiehl said:


> Yepp, that's the point. King gets to have his name on the cover larger than the respective book's title because he's Stephen Freaking King. And with all due respect, most people on here are not.


You have to plan for success. If your marketing says you're big, then people will quite often tend to believe it.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

deedawning said:


> Yeah, they were multiple author bundles. I'm thinking of switching to non-fiction. At least then any old fiction book will do


Sorry, not quite sure what you mean by that. You ask why anyone should pay $2.99 for one book when they can get a whole bundle of 99 cents, but does price really come into it when it comes to books? If I want the latest Stephen King, I don't even look at the price and I can get horror all over the place much cheaper than that. I recently downloaded and read a so called historical romance which was free and it wasn't worth the price. The writer had no idea about British history, the language and names were far too modern, and the story was ridiculous. Am I going to dash out and buy a bundle of her books because they are 99 cents? Not on your nelly. People will buy your books if they are better than others and when you have built up a following you need to ignore what others are doing and keep at it. I uploaded a new novel late last night (UK time) and it already has one sale and 2 borrows. I have only been doing this for just over a year, and I am now just getting my name noticed.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Doglover said:


> does price really come into it when it comes to books?


No; not much at all. (Apart from for a small group of people with a "$0.99-mentality" and some self-published authors who mistakenly imagine that prices are what determine people's book-shopping habits.) But common sense of the kind you've just posted is not _always_ warmly received in forum conversations of this nature, where some perspectives tend to be more welcome than others.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> No; not much at all. (Apart from for a small group of people with a "$0.99-mentality" and some self-published authors who mistakenly imagine that prices are what determine people's book-shopping habits.) But common sense of the kind you've just posted is not _always_ warmly received in forum conversations of this nature, where some perspectives tend to be more welcome than others.


Thanks, I think


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> That's my perspective. I also welcome yours.


And likewise, of course. 



Lydniz said:


> Many of the people who sell at a lower price have found that that is the price point that works for them.


My contention, in this context, is that many of the people who sell at a lower price have chosen, _right at the start_, to do so "because others do so and have told them it's best" and without ever testing it (which - let's face it - is pretty difficult), don't themselves have anything against which to compare their results, have an emotional incentive to continue to believe that they're doing the right thing, and have effectively got themselves stuck in a pricing model which may actually be distinctly "second-best" for them.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Quote from: BTackitt on Yesterday at 08:04:16 AM
Dee, This is just my $0.02.. but I know me, I am a cover lover.. If your covers are decent, then I look at blurb. Honest, not one of your covers grabs my attention, if anything I look at your covers and think... EW! And your "Bastard Preacher?" I read the premise and had the same thought, there's no way I would want to read that.
I read a LOT of E-rom, and not one of those looks like something I would want to pick up.


deedawning said:


> You're also a poet (cover lover). So how does that work out for? Are you always happy with the books you pick out by the cover?


I start with cover, then move on to blurb, then if still wishy washy, I check the reviews... Cover has its part, but blurb can make or break, or leave me wondering...
My style of choosing books has only resulted in a few bad books over the last 5 years, and at the rate I read, I can live with 1/150 being a bad choice.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> My contention, in this context, is that many of the people who sell at a lower price have chosen, _right at the start_, to do so "because others do so and have told them it's best" and without ever testing it (which - let's face it - is pretty difficult), don't themselves have anything against which to compare their results, have an emotional incentive to continue to believe that they're doing the right thing, and have effectively got themselves stuck in a pricing model which may actually be distinctly "second-best" for them.


That is a fair point and I do actually agree with you for the most part. But higher prices won't work for everyone. My own approach is to start from a price that I'd be willing to pay myself and take it from there.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

zoe tate said:


> And likewise, of course.
> 
> My contention, in this context, is that many of the people who sell at a lower price have chosen, _right at the start_, to do so "because others do so and have told them it's best" and without ever testing it (which - let's face it - is pretty difficult), don't themselves have anything against which to compare their results, have an emotional incentive to continue to believe that they're doing the right thing, and have effectively got themselves stuck in a pricing model which may actually be distinctly "second-best" for them.


I tried higher pricing for years. YEARS. Short stories at 2.99, novellas and shorter collections at 4.99, collections and novels at 7.99. Basically following the DWS pricing guidelines.

I was lucky in those years if I made more than 100 a month. I had a few months where I did quite well, but every single one of those months was when I got cranky and dropped my prices or used perma-free for a little while before being shamed back into the fold with cries of "why are you devaluing your work".

Then, in Jan 2014, I sold 18 books. Total. With 40 titles up. It was basically as bad as things had been since I'd started in 2010. It wasn't working. The high price thing had to go. I figured maybe trying what DWS and KKR called "that dumb kboards stuff" wouldn't hurt. I couldn't really do worse, right?

Fast forward 8 months later and I'm making a really good living (took about 5 months and a new plan and some experimenting, including being part of a bundle). My medical bills are paid off, etc.

Bundles (both single and multi-author). Lower pricing on initial books in series. Writing with a plan and to market instead of willy-nilly whatever. I can attest this stuff works in 2014. If it will keep working? No idea.

So sure, high pricing might work for some. But not from what I've seen. I've seen very few people start with high prices, keep high prices on their series books, and do very well. In my own experience, it totally failed me and almost caused me to stop being a writer.

As for how we stay competitive: 1) write good books that readers want to read, 2) package them well (cover, blurb, editing), 3) have a plan with your pricing and marketing, look at what works for others writing similar things and figure out how to make it work for you. Right now bundling work with similar authors and cross-pollinating audiences is good.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2014)

ㅈㅈ said:


> I tried higher pricing for years. YEARS. Short stories at 2.99, novellas and shorter collections at 4.99, collections and novels at 7.99. Basically following the DWS pricing guidelines.
> 
> I was lucky in those years if I made more than 100 a month. I had a few months where I did quite well, but every single one of those months was when I got cranky and dropped my prices or used perma-free for a little while before being shamed back into the fold with cries of "why are you devaluing your work".
> 
> ...


^THIS^

I was following DWS method of pricing for a while too. It only works for Erotica (for me). I changed all non-Eritoca to .99c and then tested lots of various price ranges, increasing and decreasing prices every few weeks until I found what worked for me. Mostly I just focus on writing more of what my readers want and pricing at prices my readers pay and don't worry about what other authors are doing with their prices. Only thing that matters is that I give my readers what they want at prices they are willing to pay.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Danni said:


> I haven't read all five pages since I am trying to hit a word count this morning.
> 
> 1. Bundles are no more "unfair" than free books. Think of bundles as Russell Stover samplers, where readers get to discover new flavors.
> 2. I'm not sure why you said in the same breath that decent-sized stories and good reviews = unfair.
> ...


Okay, Danni, edify me. God knows I've got enough titles for a dozen bundles. If I want to try a bundle how do I do it and if I wanted to join somebody else's bundle, what do I do?


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Sorry, not quite sure what you mean by that. You ask why anyone should pay $2.99 for one book when they can get a whole bundle of 99 cents, but does price really come into it when it comes to books? If I want the latest Stephen King, I don't even look at the price and I can get horror all over the place much cheaper than that. I recently downloaded and read a so called historical romance which was free and it wasn't worth the price. The writer had no idea about British history, the language and names were far too modern, and the story was ridiculous. Am I going to dash out and buy a bundle of her books because they are 99 cents? Not on your nelly. People will buy your books if they are better than others and when you have built up a following you need to ignore what others are doing and keep at it. I uploaded a new novel late last night (UK time) and it already has one sale and 2 borrows. I have only been doing this for just over a year, and I am now just getting my name noticed.


I'm not sure what I mean either other than with non fiction you're selling information while with fiction you're selling entertainment. I happen to think information narrows thing down more than fiction. You might find 100k books entertaining but depending upon the information you seek, it's undoubtedly a lot fewer books


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

deedawning said:


> Okay, Danni, edify me. God knows I've got enough titles for a dozen bundles. If I want to try a bundle how do I do it and if I wanted to join somebody else's bundle, what do I do?


This is the multi-million dollar question everyone wants the answer to. (We all want to be *invited* to a bundle). You can start your own, but it's a lot of work, especially with working out the authors' royalties.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Fast forward 8 months later and I'm making a really good living (took about 5 months and a new plan and some experimenting, including being part of a bundle). My medical bills are paid off, etc.


BUT YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG, DON'CHA KNOW.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

ㅈㅈ said:


> I tried higher pricing for years. YEARS. Short stories at 2.99, novellas and shorter collections at 4.99, collections and novels at 7.99. Basically following the DWS pricing guidelines.
> 
> I was lucky in those years if I made more than 100 a month. I had a few months where I did quite well, but every single one of those months was when I got cranky and dropped my prices or used perma-free for a little while before being shamed back into the fold with cries of "why are you devaluing your work".
> 
> ...


Yep, yep, yep. Been their done that. Over & Over. Thanks for being frank. Any other info you want to disseminate is welcome.


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## chris56 (Jun 8, 2013)

deedawning said:


> I believe I said I book covers, room permitting a blurb but not necessarily a link. I also request a review. I will work on links for the books. The reason I don't have links is I pub on Apple, B&N, Kobo, Google Play and other beside Amazon and I don't want to get them mixed up. But once the book is pubbed I can probably safely add a link


I do formatting for a number of authors and I offer different formats - one for Kindle and one for everyone else (except Smashwords - that's a third format). For the Kindle format, I'll use Amazon links and for the other formats, the links go to the author's website. Linking to your author website is permitted and you can have a page on your site that lists all of your books. You should also have a page on your website dedicated to your newsletter, or whatever else you want to call it, where people subscribe to be notified of new releases. You can link to that page at the end of your books as well. Some authors put the link to their newsletter in the front matter and the back matter of their books.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> This is the multi-million dollar question everyone wants the answer to. (We all want to be *invited* to a bundle). You can start your own, but it's a lot of work, especially with working out the authors' royalties.


Really? It can't be that high. Math is something I am good at. Bundler, I assume takes and good sized cut right? 50%? remaining amount on a five book bundle would be divided by 5. That would be 3.5 cents per bundle or $35 per 1000 bundles.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

deedawning said:


> I'm not sure what I mean either other than with non fiction you're selling information while with fiction you're selling entertainment. I happen to think information narrows thing down more than fiction. You might find 100k books entertaining but depending upon the information you seek, it's undoubtedly a lot fewer books


But to write decent non fiction it has to be a subject upon which you are an authority and there are only so many subjects to apply that to. My only non fiction book is about the care of the Newfoundland Dog (The Gentle Giant in the signature) which actually comes from my website. Being owned by two newfoundland dogs and now having them trained to be off lead and stop and wait for me when I go too slow, without a word from me, I feel I can talk about them with authority. That book sells very well, but the other non fiction subjects I can feel qualified to talk about are pretty boring if I wanted to write about them.


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## lazyjayn (May 18, 2011)

In the bundles I've seen _and would participate in_ the person doing all the admin takes out any actual production costs (if the authors didn't throw in for that in advance). Then after that they either keep 10% or a share. So if it's a 5 person bundle, with the admin being done by someone who doesn't have a book in, they get 3.5 cents per sale.

If it's 5 books/authors, plus the bundler, splitting it as shares, each gets 1/6th. If it's a 5 person bundle and the admin person is one of the authors, too, they'd get 2/6ths or 1/5th + 3.5 cents per sale.

Only way most people would consider 50% cut for someone is if the "someone" is a charity...


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Hey, Dee:

I'm one of those authors who uses bundles to get more exposure. I write contemporary romance and romantic erotica novels and novellas. I don't write erotic shorts at all, although I am considering starting a new pen name and trying it out. 

I put the first novel or novella in a series into a bundle and view it as a lost leader that gets new eyeballs on my work and new readers familiar with my author name. Bundles really work! My sales doubled the following couple of months after I put the first novel in a series into a bundle that included 5 other romance authors. It was a great move but I was already making a six-figure income from writing. Since the first bundle, I have been in two other bundles and will be including a novel and novella into a bundle that will go on for sale during the holiday season. It's a marketing tool. It only really works if you have other books in the series that people can turn to after they've read your first or other titles for sale. 

Bundles are a great a promotional tool. I am a business woman in addition to being a writer and I have to find ways to sell my product - ebooks. Price is one of the best ways I have to compete with other authors and get my work out there. It's not unfair. It's not fair either. It's just business. In this business, you either adapt and adjust and compete or you fade into obscurity.

I don't know about your books, but if you want to know how to compete with everything else out there, take a look at the top 100 bestselling books in your category. Do your covers compete with those that are bestsellers in terms of quality and appeal? Covers are SO important. Invest in them. A good cover can cost as little as $5 or as much as $500 depending on who you hire. Take a look at your blurbs. Do your blurbs compete with those of bestsellers? Blurbs really sell books. Do you have lots of reviews? Reviews also sell. If you don't have a lot, give away ARCs and ask for honest reviews. Are you writing stories that have the same appeal as the bestsellers? Do you understand the traditions in your genre? 

You are a business person and have to understand your market and what is selling and what works in your field. 

That doesn't mean "selling out" and being a hack but it means giving your reader something that pleases them. If you want to be an "artist", then by all means, write whatever you want and hope that someone else wants to read it. If you want to be a successful business person, you have to get readers, and to get readers, you have to give them what they want -- a great story with compelling characters at a price they find attractive. I can't tell you what that is, but if you read the top books in your genre, you will know what readers want.

How to get into a bundle? Here's how I did it. I made friends with other authors in my genre on Facebook and Twitter and supported them publicly through co-promotion when they had a new release or sale. Note: I did not exchange reviews. I don't do that. I only review what I like and in fact, I have stopped reviewing at all unless I read a book and love it.  But I do feel free to help promote other authors in my genre when they have a sale or new release. A rising tide lifts all ships and all that. 

When one of the authors I am friends with had the opportunity to go into a bundle, she invited me to participate as well. It was a great success and we hit top 100 in the Kindle store. Once I had that bundle under my belt as experience, I did my own bundle and invited other authors. We were pretty successful and hit #150 in the Kindle store and got a lot of exposure for our books. I've been in another since and will be in one over the holidays and will be putting another one together after the holidays.

So, in general, here's my advice for what it's worth:

1) Get to know other authors in your genre and be a supportive colleague. Do it because it's great to know other writers, and it's also a great opportunity to cross promote.
2) If you aren't invited into a bundle, why wait? Start your own and contact authors who write books like you write to do your own bundle. It is a lot of work but its seriously worth it, not only in terms of the effect on sales of your other titles, but also just being part of a supportive writing community and co-promotion.
3) Overhaul your titles if your sales are falling or lacklustre. Invest in your business like any other business person must do. 
4) Make sure your books all have CTAs and you have funnels for your series. 
5) Understand your market and your readers. Give them the best damn book you can in your chosen genre based on what you understand about it and them.
6) Use all the marketing and promotional tools in your self-published author tool kit. There are many paid and free promotional sites. Send your book to book bloggers in your genre and hope they give it a good review. That will get you new readers. 

Some of the advice above costs money and some of it is free. It's up to you how much you want to invest in your business and career. I spend hundreds each month on promotion and thousands each year on covers, editing, promotion and make a six-figure income as a result. I work at it every day. I network. I cross promote. I keep writing new material.

It's hard to know what books will sell and what books won't but if you do everything right, you increase your chances of selling. If you mix art and craft and business together, you might even be a success, but even if you do everything right, luck has a lot to do with it. The harder you work, the better your luck or at least, you will be there, ready, when luck shines down on you.

Good luck!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Other than running your own bundle (which is a ton of work to do properly, because you also have to keep track of taxes and send out 1099 forms to US writers etc, as well as handling formatting, cover, advertising, organizing, payments, etc), the best way to be invited to a bundle is to have professional-looking books that sell well. I know some of the bundle I've been in, we used the top 100 lists for our genre to figure out who might have a good book and an audience to bring to the table. 

It does kind of become a "who you know" or "success breeds more success" effect, but that's the reality of business.  I'd say the best thing you can do is maximize your appeal by having excellent, genre-appropriate covers, a hooky blurb, and doing whatever you can to gain visibility.  Or you could approach people who have been in bundles you think your work might fit within and very very politely ask them to consider you if they do one in the future. Never hurts to ask and to be nice about it.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Other than running your own bundle (which is a ton of work to do properly, because you also have to keep track of taxes and send out 1099 forms to US writers etc, as well as handling formatting, cover, advertising, organizing, payments, etc), the best way to be invited to a bundle is to have professional-looking books that sell well. I know some of the bundle I've been in, we used the top 100 lists for our genre to figure out who might have a good book and an audience to bring to the table.
> 
> It does kind of become a "who you know" or "success breeds more success" effect, but that's the reality of business. I'd say the best thing you can do is maximize your appeal by having excellent, genre-appropriate covers, a hooky blurb, and doing whatever you can to gain visibility. Or you could approach people who have been in bundles you think your work might fit within and very very politely ask them to consider you if they do one in the future. Never hurts to ask and to be nice about it.


Well, there goes my chance.

But, silliness aside, I've decided not to obsess about this, and definitely not to start my own bundle, because anyone who suggests it's easy doesn't know what they're talking about. I'll probably never be asked because I'm not nice enough or popular enough and my books don't sell well enough, and by the time I do have all those things, I won't really *need* it anymore, because my sales will be just fine. So there is that. Better just to focus on my fiction and write to my own plan. You know, stuff I can control.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Other than running your own bundle (which is a ton of work to do properly, because you also have to keep track of taxes and send out 1099 forms to US writers etc, as well as handling formatting, cover, advertising, organizing, payments, etc), the best way to be invited to a bundle is to have professional-looking books that sell well. I know some of the bundle I've been in, we used the top 100 lists for our genre to figure out who might have a good book and an audience to bring to the table.
> 
> It does kind of become a "who you know" or "success breeds more success" effect, but that's the reality of business. I'd say the best thing you can do is maximize your appeal by having excellent, genre-appropriate covers, a hooky blurb, and doing whatever you can to gain visibility. Or you could approach people who have been in bundles you think your work might fit within and very very politely ask them to consider you if they do one in the future. Never hurts to ask and to be nice about it.


Hi Thanks for the info. One shouldn't have to send out 1099s unless the party made over $600 which seems unlikely bc that would mean a sale of some 20,000 bundles, but if so that would be worth it. I already have 16 authors and I send out 1099s for most of them so it wouldn't be a big deal to do another five or so.

Everybody keeps saying it's a lot of work. What does that consist of. Seems like 99 cent bundles should sell themselves I'd have to figure out how to get the cover art work done. What else is there?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

deedawning said:


> Hi Thanks for the info. One shouldn't have to send out 1099s unless the party made over $600 which seems unlikely bc that would mean a sale of some 20,000 bundles, but if so that would be worth it. I already have 16 authors and I send out 1099s for most of them so it wouldn't be a big deal to do another five or so.
> 
> Everybody keeps saying it's a lot of work. What does that consist of. Seems like 99 cent bundles should sell themselves I'd have to figure out how to get the cover art work done. What else is there?


What this thread has been trying to tell you is that up to a certain point, and concerning multi-author bundles, the price argument is a fallacy. No one wants to pay 99c for a bundle of ten books that they don't want to read. They don't even want it for free.

A bundle does well because:

1. There are "drawcard" authors in it
2. The authors have advertised the hell out of it.

Probably both.

Randomly bundled books don't sell themselves. You have to be very selective with who you put in there to make an attractive package.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Sela said:


> Hey, Dee:
> 
> I'm one of those authors who uses bundles to get more exposure. I write contemporary romance and romantic erotica novels and novellas. I don't write erotic shorts at all, although I am considering starting a new pen name and trying it out.
> 
> ...


Hi Sela, Thanks for taking the time to give me your viewpoint. There's a lot to digest here and on the thread so I may have questions for you. Right now I'm working 70-80 hours a week and not getting anywhere so I have the time. It's the direction that's a problem for me. Like I explained to LazyJayn, Being creative and arttzy I've never been very good at sales. Now it appears I have to get good at it or keep making less than minimum wage. Good thing I'm on social security.

Thanks again, best, Dee


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Here's the work involved:

1) Determine a genre and theme - what sets your bundle apart from all the other bundles? 

2) Find other authors whose work fits the theme. This involves contacting them personally. It's emails and Facebook messages, etc.

3) Determine a lineup -- authors and titles.

4) Determine an order -- random, alphabetical, based on sales rank etc.

5) Create a master manuscript - you can do it yourself with the original documents or hire someone. The person I hired cost $40 per book included in the bundle. Each author paid her separately and she took all the books in ePub or Mobi format (or .doc) and put them together into one master ePub / Mobi. She included cover art, links to Author social media, etc. 

6) Develop cover art for the bundle. Cost is anywhere from free to $500 depending on who you hire etc. You should have 3-D covers and 2-D covers. Apple doesn't take 3-D covers.

7) You need an account for the book on Amazon and other channels. Someone has to take the lead on this. If you do it yourself, you have to provide updates on stats, earnings, etc. 

 It's good practice to have some kind of promotion for the set for pre-order, cover reveal, release day countdown, release day promotion. You need to get the word out there. There are book promoters who freelance at this, and charge anything up to $100 depending on what you do.

9) You need an author agreement that outlines what each author is entitled to and the rights etc. How long the bundle will be for sale. All authors should have a copy and sign it -- you can get them to send you a pic of their signature on the document rather than send it via snail mail.

10) Upload the master documents to all channels in time for the set to go live.

11) Promote the heck out of the set. Daily, using social media and paid promotion, Facebook ads, etc.

12) Once you pull the set, you have to pay out each author's share of revenues. I used Paypal.


I'm sure there are more things involved but that's a list of everything I can think of at the moment.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> What this thread has been trying to tell you is that up to a certain point, and concerning multi-author bundles, the price argument is a fallacy. No one wants to pay 99c for a bundle of ten books that they don't want to read. They don't even want it for free.
> 
> A bundle does well because:
> 
> ...


I know all the bundles I have picked up read like a bestseller list in their respective genres. Now part of the draw is I know and love Author A's writing. So I hope that all the other authors in the bundle will be good. 
There is a publishing company that does bundles. If I see that publisher on the bundle, I know I am pretty much guaranteed a good if not great read across the bundle. 
And this is coming from someone who has read many many authors. Some I have read from the beginning of their career.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Hi Sela, Thanks for taking the time to give me your viewpoint. There's a lot to digest here and on the thread so I may have questions for you. Right now I'm working 70-80 hours a week and not getting anywhere so I have the time. It's the direction that's a problem for me. Like I explained to LazyJayn, Being creative and arttzy I've never been very good at sales. Now it appears I have to get good at it or keep making less than minimum wage. Good thing I'm on social security.
> 
> Thanks again, best, Dee


I'm an artzy person, too. I think most writers are. Never been a business person but I had to become one once I went into self-publishing.

Look, none of this stuff is hard to do. It's not rocket science! It's not theoretical physics.  It's really simple and most of it is just work. It's organization. It's prioritizing. It relies on understanding your field and genre. It requires taking yourself seriously and working harder and smarter.

My advice -- read David Gaughran's _Let's Get Digital_ and _Let's Get Visible_ and also read _Write, Publish, Repeat_ by Platt and Truant. They have everything you need to know to get yourself in a position to be a success. The rest is up to the reader!


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Sounds like if the readers aren't familiar with at least one or two of the authors in the bundle they'll stay away. I guess I'll hang up that idea for a bit. I'm trying something on Google Play that seems to be working. I dropped 15 books in groups of three down to 99cents through the month and sales are up about 150%. I guess I'll see that through while I digest everything I've learned here.

Thanks everybody.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Pandora hit USAT with only a few authors that anyone's heard of.  FWIW.  They marketed the crap out of that.

But if a bundle is really tearing up the lists--assume fairly massive marketing.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

deedawning said:


> Sounds like if the readers aren't familiar with at least one or two of the authors in the bundle they'll stay away. I guess I'll hang up that idea for a bit. I'm trying something on Google Play that seems to be working. I dropped 15 books in groups of three down to 99cents through the month and sales are up about 150%. I guess I'll see that through while I digest everything I've learned here.
> 
> Thanks everybody.


It helps to have a few big-name authors in a bundle but I've seen bundles in the top 100 and didn't know ANY of the authors! Romance readers, erotic romance readers, are voracious. They are always looking for great deals and lots of new material. We can't create it fast enough to keep up. I know a lot of my readers read a book a day.

It's true that success breeds success but every success started at the bottom. Talent is important, but luck and hard work go a long way to making a success.

I'm assuming that you really do want to know how to improve your sales and career and weren't just grumbling and using bundled sets as a scapegoat. Grumbling feels good but is unproductive.

Bundled sets are a sales tactic that can be really useful in promoting your brand and increasing sales. The existence of bundled sets has not stopped readers from buying my full-priced novels. In fact, they have improved my sales and increased the visibility of my brand.

Good luck!


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Sela said:


> My advice -- read David Gaughran's _Let's Get Digital_ and _Let's Get Visible_ and also read _Write, Publish, Repeat_ by Platt and Truant. They have everything you need to know to get yourself in a position to be a success. The rest is up to the reader!


Coincidentally two of those books are in a 99c bundle at present. The Indie Author Power Pack: How To Write, Publish, & Market Your Book


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Sela said:


> It helps to have a few big-name authors in a bundle but I've seen bundles in the top 100 and didn't know ANY of the authors! Romance readers, erotic romance readers, are voracious. They are always looking for great deals and lots of new material. We can't create it fast enough to keep up. I know a lot of my readers read a book a day.
> 
> It's true that success breeds success but every success started at the bottom. Talent is important, but luck and hard work go a long way to making a success.
> 
> ...


I told you, I have sixteen authors and 140 good mostly erotic & erotic romance books including some series, but it's the top 100 list that stops me. I never checked but I doubt anyone ever came close to top 100 in either genre.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Coincidentally two of those books are in a 99c bundle at present. The Indie Author Power Pack: How To Write, Publish, & Market Your Book


 Definitely gotta check this out.
Thanks


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Some of the bundles I've been in definitely will need to 1099 us. 20k sales is pretty decent for a bundle and if you are doing it right, not totally out of the realm of possible at all. Not every bundle will hit high and hard, but part of the point of choosing authors with audiences and marketing the crud out of the bundle is to sell as many copies as possible because it's another way for readers to find your work. 

Even though I'm having great success now, I am certainly not going to stop trying things and working to get more success. I don't see any reason to slow down or to stop doing what works (which at the moment includes bundles, for sure). Looking at bestselling indies, I don't really see them resting on success. The bestsellers who I notice consistently do well are the ones constantly trying stuff and constantly working harder.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

zoe tate said:


> My contention, in this context, is that many of the people who sell at a lower price have chosen, _right at the start_, to do so "because others do so and have told them it's best" and without ever testing it (which - let's face it - is pretty difficult), don't themselves have anything against which to compare their results, have an emotional incentive to continue to believe that they're doing the right thing, and have effectively got themselves stuck in a pricing model which may actually be distinctly "second-best" for them.


There are genres where you simply do not see high-priced ebooks, regardless of whether you look at trade published, indie published or self-published books. There can be occasional outliers, but they do not sell well and price is the reason. Which is something you quickly notice if you're an active participant on booksites like GoodReads, Leafmarks or Booklikes and see readers prefer to lend or pass entirely on high-priced books.

Show me for instance the m/m or gay romance novels which sell consistently high and comparable to for instance $3 - $5 at a price of $9.90. Do the same with contemporary romance or any of the other genres which live off the appetite of their voracious readers.

Just to nip this in the bud, I'll not accept bestseller authors as examples for such prices working just fine. A Stephen King is a Stephen King, not comparable to Jane Smith.

So, if it works for you, be happy. Just don't pose as if it could work for everyone and they are just too dumb or too timid to make it work.


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## No longer seen (Aug 17, 2013)

To return to covers . . . 

You mention you learned the "rule" the author's name should be smaller than the title. You seem to have imprinted on this
worse than a baby chick on its mother.

It's not in the Constitution. It's not a federal or state law. It's just a reflection of authors who believe their names are not important.

Publishers don't "break" the rule for the A List. No "publishing police" are giving them a pass. They know 99% per readers would rather
read a novel by Stephen King than a novel named "Cell." 

The midlist's names are kept small because they're midlist.

One piece of advice Dean Wesley Smith gives which I believe is correct is to brand your covers with your name. The readers may 
not have heard of you, but you LOOK A-list, and therefore not midlist.

You may be obeying other "rules" which you could profit from "breaking." Obey Amazon's TOS, but not poor advice.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, although I've been finding it fascinating. But I feel I must chime in on the Author Size thing. I agree that the author name should be small, and try to do that...but there was one of my covers where I didn't have much choice but to make it big. It was the only way I could, with my limited design skills and the image I needed to work, make the cover balanced at all.

I was not "known" or anything, certainly not a bestseller. But that book sold better than most of my stories, even with the title huge: http://www.amazon.com/The-One-for-Me-ebook/dp/B00E2TMORW There is no reason that should've worked for me, but it did.

*edit* And I should add, that if I had a bunch of titles with a similar look, I suspect they'd also do well. People seem to want more YA! But I'm still pretty embarrassed about having my name so big on it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You author name size should fit the genre. Thrillers often have large author names, often because typography is one of the #1 things that help define a thriller cover.  

Look at James Patterson. On his thrillers, his name is huge. On his YA adventure books? His name is fairly small. 

It's all about genre and expectation. One size fits all is a terrible idea.

But hey, if you want to sell like DWS, you should totally follow his advice


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

ʬ said:


> Pandora hit USAT with only a few authors that anyone's heard of. FWIW. They marketed the crap out of that.
> 
> But if a bundle is really tearing up the lists--assume fairly massive marketing.


Even made that awesome author, VAMPIRE, a household name.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

ㅈㅈ said:


> But hey, if you want to sell like DWS, you should totally follow his advice


OMG, yes! Someone make a meme pic of this, please!


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

HSh said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread, although I've been finding it fascinating. But I feel I must chime in on the Author Size thing. I agree that the author name should be small, and try to do that...but there was one of my covers where I didn't have much choice but to make it big. It was the only way I could, with my limited design skills and the image I needed to work, make the cover balanced at all.
> 
> I was not "known" or anything, certainly not a bestseller. But that book sold better than most of my stories, even with the title huge: http://www.amazon.com/The-One-for-Me-ebook/dp/B00E2TMORW There is no reason that should've worked for me, but it did.
> 
> *edit* And I should add, that if I had a bunch of titles with a similar look, I suspect they'd also do well. People seem to want more YA! But I'm still pretty embarrassed about having my name so big on it.


I never said that the Author name should be small. Just that nothing should overshadow the title. Obviously, there are instances where you bypass this rule, Like where the author is bigger news than the work. Where readers buy the book not based on the cover, title, blurb but on the author who has dozens of bestsellers. The author someone suggested, Stephen King, is an excellent example.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

I guess I'm on the other side of this coin. I only charge 99 cents for my erotic shorts. I just don't see charging 3 bucks for 8,000 words. I do plan to write  some short story collections and charge more though.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I decided to check out Dee's writing.  Only one question is the sequel to your Preacher out yet?  He is a great read.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

ʇɹǝuuıɹ ˙ɔ uɐp said:


> If I want to read a story with a wizard detective, I can grab any 99 cent or even free book that's out there. There's probably a ton of them.
> 
> If I want to read a story about Harry Dresden, I have to pay whatever Jim Butcher or his publisher sets as the price for the book.
> 
> There may be competition for a books in a specific genre, but authors have a monopoly on their own characters.


Wow, you nailed it man  Also: Polka will never die!


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## ThomasDiehl (Aug 23, 2014)

deedawning said:


> I never said that the Author name should be small. Just that nothing should overshadow the title. Obviously, there are instances where you bypass this rule, Like where the author is bigger news than the work. Where readers buy the book not based on the cover, title, blurb but on the author who has dozens of bestsellers. The author someone suggested, Stephen King, is an excellent example.


I think the bottom line about this is: Whatever is most likely to make people buy the book should get prime exposition. For a few authors that's their name. For most it's the title. And then there's some genres that have different rules of their own regarding this - thrillers especially.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

katrina46 said:


> I guess I'm on the other side of this coin. I only charge 99 cents for my erotic shorts. I just don't see charging 3 bucks for 8,000 words. I do plan to write some short story collections and charge more though.


I don't necessarily agree, but I see your point. Unfotunately Amazon set the table and it's strictly to gain advantage over authors and the competition. So is select & borrowing. No other vendors else have two tiered royalties. 
Though 2.99 is three times .99 you have to sell 8 times the books to make the same money, which is a plenty good reason to charge 2.99 or more for any book if you can get it.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> I decided to check out Dee's writing. Only one question is the sequel to your Preacher out yet? He is a great read.


Thank you Cin, I'm working on book 4, The Godless Preacher when I find the time which is seldom and that's even preempted by my need to get the rewrite of third book of my Sensual Awakening series, Victoria's Secret Life out before Xmas. There will probably be six total book in The Televangelist series of which The Bastard Preacher is first.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

deedawning said:


> Unfotunately Amazon set the table and it's strictly to gain advantage over authors and the competition. So is select & borrowing. No other vendors else have two tiered royalties.


Both Kobo and Nook have two tiered royalties.


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## deedawning (Aug 31, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Both Kobo and Nook have two tiered royalties.


 If there are I'm not aware of them because I go through Smashwords where they pay the same royalty less their cut for sales from all vendors.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

deedawning said:


> If there are I'm not aware of them because I go through Smashwords where they pay the same royalty less their cut for sales from all vendors.


Yes Smashwords are paying part of that out of their own pocket, but their Channel distribution page still claims that they only pay 38% on Kobo items priced above £12.99 despite the fact that Kobo removed that ceiling (to help with bundles) about a year ago.


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