# Things that annoy me:The info dump



## Tom Schreck (Dec 12, 2010)

Do you ever get to the end of a mystery and the bad guy has the good guy confronted--then the the bad guy ties every loose end in the book together by reciting it to the good guy before killing him...then, of course, the rescue occurs.

The book then ends with a epilogue that ties all the remaining loose ends together.

That annoys me...a lot. If the author is going to just explain everything then why did I read the book!

Can you tell I read something with an unsatisfying ending this weekend?


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## TheRiddler (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm the opposite. 

I like to have all the loose ends tied up - I feel a bit cheated otherwise.

However the old 'James Bond - villain tells all' is a very clumsy way to do it.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

And they always have to preface it with "Since I'm going to kill you anyway, I may as well tell you everything."  (Which never, ever, works out for the villian.)


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Hah! That reminds me of this game, "Before I Kill You, Mr. Bond..." was the name of it, I believe, by a company called


Spoiler



Cheap-Ass Games


. Their idea, which I thought was a good one, was to sell the bare bones of board games - their reasoning was if you need dice, you've probably got 4 or 5 games you can swipe a set from, same for pawns, etc. Anyway, the premise of the game is you've got one player as the Agent, another as the criminal mastermind (forget if more people could play) and the agent was trying to infiltrate the lair and capture the criminal mastermind, meanwhile the Dr. Evil clone was trying to build up his fortress and such. Anyway, bonus points if, after you captured the agent, you took the time to come up with a monologue revealing all your plans. Hence the "Before I Kill You..." Yeah, it was very tongue-in-cheek


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## CandyTX (Apr 13, 2009)

*laughing*

Yeah, they spend 10 minutes telling them why/how/what/where and you just know they are going to die in the end. If they had just shot them instead of holding them at gunpoint telling them their life story, then they could have gotten away scott free, but nooooooo.... criminals are apparently stupid


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

One thing that annoys me is authors who go on and on about the clothes being worn by characters.  My eyes just glaze over and find the next paragraph.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Oh - if anyone's interested, it's a card game:
http://cheapass.com/products/cardgames/cag530.html

Apparently, MGM had a small fit about the name, so it's now called "James Ernest's Totally Renamed Spy Game". Yeah, CAG doesn't take themselves very seriously.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

Actually, there is a good deal of serious psychology in having the criminal masterminds telling their entire plans before killing the cop/detective/spy/etc.: it's human nature. It just wouldn't be as pleasant to kill the good guy/gal without making sure he/she knows _what_ you are getting away with and _how_ you're going to do it. That need for the other person to know just how _baaaaad_ you are and how superior is very human. The problem in the narrative is that the authors tend to let help arrive just in time to save the day. I think that _deus ex machina_ is more flawed than the confession.


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## Steph H (Oct 28, 2008)

CandyTX said:


> *laughing*
> 
> Yeah, they spend 10 minutes telling them why/how/what/where and you just know they are going to die in the end. If they had just shot them instead of holding them at gunpoint telling them their life story, then they could have gotten away scott free, but nooooooo.... criminals are apparently stupid


While I don't in truth mind the 'wrapping up of the loose ends' -- how else are we supposed to find out most of the time? -- what I really like, especially in TV or movies, is the villain who says along the lines of "what, do you think I'm going to tell you everything as if this was a bad spy movie??" and makes as if to shoot the good guy immediately but then rescue happens. Kind of a tongue-in-cheek poking fun at things.


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## history_lover (Aug 9, 2010)

Tom Schreck said:


> Do you ever get to the end of a mystery and the bad guy has the good guy confronted--then the the bad guy ties every loose end in the book together by reciting it to the good guy before killing him...then, of course, the rescue occurs.
> 
> The book then ends with a epilogue that ties all the remaining loose ends together.
> 
> ...


You'd rather be left wondered why certain things happened or didn't happen or what the bad guy's motive was, etc? I know it's an overused and often unrealistic method of revealing all and typing up loose ends but I think in many cases, without it, the reader would be left with a ton of unanswered questions and might dislike the book as a result.


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## Labrynth (Dec 31, 2009)

Eh, I've seen an info dump done ok and a lot that haven't.

I'm probably one of the few who was completely satisfied with how JKR wrapped up HP.  I had zero issues with the epilogue.  No, it didn't answer every little question we had, but it gave us a decent picture of their lives IMO.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2011)

Labrynth said:


> Eh, I've seen an info dump done ok and a lot that haven't.
> 
> I'm probably one of the few who was completely satisfied with how JKR wrapped up HP. I had zero issues with the epilogue. No, it didn't answer every little question we had, but it gave us a decent picture of their lives IMO.


I was happy with how it was written, not so happy with the choices she made.

This is definitely a tricky thing for authors. Do you want to tie everything together and make it obvious? Do you want to let readers connect the dots for themselves when some will and some won't? I just can't even fathom a right answer. Maybe that's why I don't write mysteries.


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## kindlegrl81 (Jan 19, 2010)

While I do agree that the "evil guy monologue" is overdone, I prefer authors to tie up the loose ends.  I hate novels where the conclusion is left up to my imagination.  If I wanted to come up with my own ending, I would have saved myself the $10 and written the book in the first place.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

kindlegrl81 said:


> While I do agree that the "evil guy monologue" is overdone, I prefer authors to tie up the loose ends. I hate novels where the conclusion is left up to my imagination. If I wanted to come up with my own ending, I would have saved myself the $10 and written the book in the first place.


LOL Good one 

I think the only caveat I'd make to that is where the lack of an ending is what forces you to think - a classic example is The Lady, or the Tiger? But as a general rule - please don't leave me hangin'.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

kindlegrl81 said:


> While I do agree that the "evil guy monologue" is overdone, I prefer authors to tie up the loose ends. I hate novels where the conclusion is left up to my imagination. If I wanted to come up with my own ending, I would have saved myself the $10 and written the book in the first place.


Which reminds me of the book/movie 'No Ending Country for Old Men'.


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## Ursula_Bauer (Dec 12, 2010)

DYB said:


> Actually, there is a good deal of serious psychology in having the criminal masterminds telling their entire plans before killing the cop/detective/spy/etc.: it's human nature. It just wouldn't be as pleasant to kill the good guy/gal without making sure he/she knows _what_ you are getting away with and _how_ you're going to do it. That need for the other person to know just how _baaaaad_ you are and how superior is very human. The problem in the narrative is that the authors tend to let help arrive just in time to save the day. I think that _deus ex machina_ is more flawed than the confession.


I agree regarding the criminal's need to get it out, for a variety of egocentric reasons: guilt, joy, pride, etc. I think you have the reason as an integral element to that character, and the way they do it specific to that reason. Help never arrives in time in my novels, and I love the books where the characters have to hash it out and hope stuff works vs. the army showing up just in the nick of time. There's a series of Historical Mystery I love - Inspector Rutledge is the main character, and they're written by a team author set under the name Charles Todd. No one helps this guy. Ever. He's always sort of screwed, either by his own foibles, or fate and some combination there of, as well as criminals who are his equal as far as craftiness. I LOVE this about these books. He's on his own, and he makes or breaks his case himself, and usually gets lumped up in the process.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Labrynth said:


> Eh, I've seen an info dump done ok and a lot that haven't.
> 
> I'm probably one of the few who was completely satisfied with how JKR wrapped up HP. I had zero issues with the epilogue. No, it didn't answer every little question we had, but it gave us a decent picture of their lives IMO.


I wished one of the people we'd met on the platform had been Dudley with his kid who, it turns out, is a wizard/witch.  I'm pretty sure he was there. 

The 'villain tells all' is, by the way, closely akin, in my mind to the 'diabolical inefficient death' scene. . .think Batman. . . . .it never works out well for the bad guy.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

"Monologue-ing" is convenient in movies where the director is always pressed for time, but generally a cheap trick in most novels unless done very carefully and convincingly. Generally, I think a carefully plotted and well written book should be able to find other ways to get information to the reader and avoid that cliche.

To paraphrase some of Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" characters: if you can get the bad guy to talk, you might survive; but beware the good man who will kill you without saying a word.


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## DYB (Aug 8, 2009)

swolf said:


> Which reminds me of the book/movie 'No Ending Country for Old Men'.


I've heard people say that, but I'm not sure I agree. The ending seems fairly clear to me.


Spoiler



He kills everyone and gets away with it.


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## screwballl (Jan 4, 2011)

I like having books lay everything out over the course of the story, not lay it out at the end. Not a long climb to the top.. then last 10 pages drop you off a cliff of disappointment. Sadly too many movies follow this same premise unless they are hoping or expecting a sequel.


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## CandyTX (Apr 13, 2009)

history_lover said:


> You'd rather be left wondered why certain things happened or didn't happen or what the bad guy's motive was, etc? I know it's an overused and often unrealistic method of revealing all and typing up loose ends but I think in many cases, without it, the reader would be left with a ton of unanswered questions and might dislike the book as a result.


Oh NO! I want the pretty bow... it better be all tied up or I'm left really frustrated. You simply cannot please me  I just think the running monologues are funny and kind of annoying - especially when it gets them killed in the end. LOL


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## Trophywife007 (Aug 31, 2009)

DYB said:


> I've heard people say that, but I'm not sure I agree. The ending seems fairly clear to me.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


You mean he wasn't


Spoiler



killed in the car accident


? I liked the "karma" aspect of that thought.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

DYB said:


> I've heard people say that, but I'm not sure I agree. The ending seems fairly clear to me.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Which is just about how every other book about a maniacal killer goes. That is, until the climax of the book.

If Silence of the Lambs had ended before


Spoiler



the scene where Gumb was taken down


, it wouldn't have had an ending either. Of course, one could claim that it ended and he got away with it, but that doesn't make it a complete story.

Stories should end in a climax, not just a last scene that's just like all the others. There should be a resolution. That doesn't necessarily mean the killer should be caught, (Hannibal, for example), but the story should resolve. Basically, in No Country for Old Men, the climax was


Spoiler



Ed Tom Bell saying "I give up


." In a normal storyline, a scene like that would be an author placing an obstacle in front of his protagonist, intended to make the ultimate success of the protagonist more satisfying for the reader/viewer.

Think of Rocky, when he 'gave up'. If the movie ended right there, it wouldn't have been an ending. It would have just been the movie stopping.


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## rerussell (May 17, 2010)

As A reader, I much prefer a well-written data dump at the end, then a "...the county is is tatters, they found true love and lived happily ever after. The End' ending.  And yes, I recently finished a much anticipate book from a favorite author that pretty much had that type of epilog and it DID end with 'The End'.  If I'd been reading a paperback book, I'd have thrown it across the room! Instead, I left a review explaining politely WHY I didn't like the ending.

I think the most important thing an author can do for the reader, is to give them enough information along the way to answer some of the secondary plots AND to bring closure to the main plot.  I don't need my hand held or to have every little thing explained to me -- just give me a good, well written plot with a satisfactory ending -- and by satisfactory, I mean tie up the story in a way that makes sense and doesn't feel like 'oh, no! It's time to end the book and I'm not sure how to do it, so I'll make the ending hurried and rushed and maybe no one will notice.' ending.

What I'm trying to say in my long-winded ramblings is this:  When I get to the end of the book, I should know more about the story and characters than I did at the beginning of the story.  Otherwise, I've wasted time that I could've been baking or cooking.  Or reading another book.

Ruth


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Just a reminder folks, while it's completely justified to discuss endings of specific novels and movies in the course of this topic, there may be people who haven't seen a particular movie or book and still hope to see/read them. Please use spoiler text when appropriate. I for one, have not yet seen _No Country for Old Men_. I've added a bit of spoiler text. 

Betsy


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## jinlo (Sep 20, 2009)

CandyTX said:


> *laughing*
> 
> Yeah, they spend 10 minutes telling them why/how/what/where and you just know they are going to die in the end. If they had just shot them instead of holding them at gunpoint telling them their life story, then they could have gotten away scott free, but nooooooo.... criminals are apparently stupid


I just wish one of the master criminals would unmask batman when they had him chained or unconscious, as opposed to just, oh I don't know, throwing him to a giant clam.

Ok, it's not quite the same, but it's close.


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## Labrynth (Dec 31, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I wished one of the people we'd met on the platform had been Dudley with his kid who, it turns out, is a wizard/witch.  I'm pretty sure he was there.


I could totally back that!!

I was actually happy we didn't get every little detail as adults. While I would have loved to have known what happened to Neville (I Heart Neville!) and Luna for instance, IMO that was a point where too much information would have brought it down. The story had ended and we didn't need another one I guess. I wouldn't complain if we eventually got the Encyclopedia that's been talked about, but I just didn't feel that all that info people wanted needed to be included at the end.

jinlo: LMAO at our icon.


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## fancynancy (Aug 9, 2009)

Reminds me of Law & Order and CSI and so many others where the culprit CONFESSES to the crime.  It makes me laugh every time!  But hey, it's TV and it has to fit the time slot.  No such excuse for books. I like to see the loose ends tied up, but not in an info dump by the perpetrator.  If all else fails, have the police detectives do the postmortem in the squad car on the way home.


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## Julie Christensen (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree completely.  Hate reading books where everything is wrapped up in the last chapter, all at once and often in ways that seem like I'm reading magical realism instead of plain old fiction.


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## LaFlamme (Dec 9, 2010)

Been a while since I've seen the "and it was all a dream" approach to fudging an denouement.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

It's been a long time since you could do the "it was all a dream" resolution and not have people walking away rolling their eyes at you. All cliches were once fresh, but this one is as stale as they come.

The evil overlord telling the hero all his fiendishly clever plans before the hero goes off to his inevitable death is one of the old cliches, but gets used a lot. Here is a link to The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html One of my favorites is #7 "When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No.""

Then there's "As you know Bob..." where one character explains what should be obvious to both characters, but the audience might not know. Imagine having two chemists saying "as you know, Bob, water is made of hydrogen and oxygen". It's unbelievable because the characters would know this quite well.

The real challenge is to give information to the reader without relying on cliches.


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## LaFlamme (Dec 9, 2010)

I dunno. Some of M. Night Shyamalan's movie endings somewhat reek of dream-style desperation.


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