# what ever happened to Joe Nobody?



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I haven't seen him around here lately, unless he's posting in threads I don't read.

Given his history and his genre, I could make a great conspiracy theory out of this.


----------



## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

A. Definitely A.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2014)

Dean Crawford said:


> He's probably undercover in Belize, staking out drug traffickers...
> 
> ... or working hard on his latest novel.


I would assume both. How else does he do the research for his books, anyway?


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I was wondering that too. I dropped him a line but haven't heard back. Miss his posts and hope he comes back soon.


----------



## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

I miss Joe's presence on KB. Could be a conspiracy...

Conspiracy theory one:*dates/facts may be inaccurate due to my laziness

April: Joe asks the question, if he had a huge marketing secret, should he share it or keep it to himself?

August: Joe laptop is stolen. Was it to find out this secret? Was there ever a secret to begin with?

September: Joe does a RBC interview where he flirts with his secrets. Was this interview a charade, a ploy to get to Joes secret? What if that person failed once again to get to it, how long could they keep their sanity as Joe foiled their every attempt?

November: Joe makes a rare public appearance at a gun store, or did he? After months of harassment, he sent a body double and waited in the parking lot, watching. But he never found out exactly which person it was. A failed mission.

Late January: His secrets on how to sale massive amounts of books at $9.99 are too powerful. So Joe does what he knows he has to do. Joe drops off the grid. A ghost. He's keeping his secrets safe. He's hunting you. 



Conspiracy theory two:

Have we ever seen Hugh Howey and Joe Nobody at the same place, at the same time...?


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

I threatened to stalk him at a convention so maybe that's it.


----------



## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

He became Joe Somebody and doesn't want to deal with us peons anymore.


----------



## RM Prioleau (Mar 18, 2011)

What are you talking about? Joe is everywhere. He's a friggin ninja.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

There's a grainy photo of him on a beach in Panama, though some reports sight him dressed native in the 'stans. Saw him standing behind Putin in a photo last week, but he could be in NK or fishing in a sloop of Vera Cruz. But I think he's busy writing a book holed up in Honduras in a little shack with no internet or cell and no KB. The man's an artist I tell ya.


----------



## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

Russell Blake changes his avatar and announces his deal with Clive Cussler.

Joe Nobody disappears.

The connections are there, people. You only need to look.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I think we've got the plot of the next Nobody opus right in this thread. Joe, are you listening?


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Joe is testing a new theory somewhere off of I-10 in western Texas.


----------



## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Getting serious for a moment:

Could it be related to that whole lawsuit thing issue Joe mentioned a while back, which was the last time I recall him being here?


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Diane Patterson said:


> Russell Blake changes his avatar and announces his deal with Clive Cussler.
> 
> Joe *Nobody disappears.*
> 
> The connections are there, people. You only need to look.


Spoken like a true plotter. Do you write mystery/suspense, perchance? 

Frankly I'm glad Russell Blake's avatar changed. He cleaned up real good. 

But --- > "Nobody disappears." <--- Clever!!!!


----------



## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

It's been 9 days since I've heard of Joe.  
Maybe I've scared him away!


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> It's been 9 days since I've heard of Joe.
> Maybe I've scared him away!


It's all that eyeball licking.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

An email from him popped up in my inbox this morning. He mentioned something about running low on ammo.


----------



## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

Yeah? Well what about the shooter on the grassy knoll?


----------



## TPiperbrook (Sep 1, 2012)

Saul Tanpepper said:


> An email from him popped up in my inbox this morning. He mentioned something about running low on ammo.


I can confirm this. He exists!


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Well, I hope that wherever he's gone to re-load, that he's not away from here for long.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

It's sad. His last few posts were about being targeted whenever he posted. Sad to see him go.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> It's sad. His last few posts were about being targeted whenever he posted. Sad to see him go.


Jeepers, really? He must've deleted those. I don't see them now.

Hopefully he's just busy. KB's definitely a time-suck.


----------



## Ethan Jones (Jan 20, 2012)

I will dispatch Justin Hall to locate JN.

Ethan


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Boyd said:


> I know the Mods got involved so.....  I love reading his insight.


Damn.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I didn't realize it had been weeks since he posted. He is a great voice on the forum so that is too bad. I hope he's just taking a hiatus.


----------



## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

I miss him too.


----------



## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

Quiss said:


> It's all that eyeball licking.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Joe, are you watching? Please come comment on my new sad monkey face


----------



## JohnHindmarsh (Jun 3, 2011)

Quiss said:


> It's all that eyeball licking.


Shudder...


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

I told y'all a few big names are gone or posting fewer and fewer. Look around at the Cafe names. Missing some good friends?

They won't be posting for a while.


----------



## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

One of the good guys. 

He is okay, but I don't know if or when he'll be back

Joe


----------



## Error404 (Sep 6, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> I told y'all a few big names are gone or posting fewer and fewer. Look around at the Cafe names. Missing some good friends?
> 
> They won't be posting for a while.


I noticed this, too. Casey, Reine, Ward and the like. Once they hit big they seem to wander off


----------



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

or they get driven away by some of the bickering or silliness. It seems to me that lately the forum has lost focus.


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I stayed away for quite a while. There did seem to be quite a bit of people jumping down each other's throats, or piling on. And I was super-busy, so it didn't seem worth it. I came back a couple of weeks ago or so, and the thing re TG and others had just happened, and again, it all seemed a bit, er, mean?


----------



## Incognita (Apr 3, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> or they get driven away by some of the bickering or silliness. It seems to me that lately the forum has lost focus.


This. These days I mostly post in the 1,000 words a day thread and try to ignore the rest. There's still some good information here, but....


----------



## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

beccaprice said:


> or they get driven away by some of the bickering or silliness. It seems to me that lately the forum has lost focus.


Bullseye


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> I told y'all a few big names are gone or posting fewer and fewer. Look around at the Cafe names. Missing some good friends?
> 
> They won't be posting for a while.


I don't know what to think about the high attrition rate, here. Yes, internet forums -- even well moderated ones -- are rough-and-tumble places. Radically different people come together, and we end up having opinions and ideas thrust in our faces that we don't usually encounter -- maybe that we don't particularly want to encounter. And if you then actually ask for advice, that effect will be magnified. You're probably going to take some licks.

But the licks here seem comparatively mild. I've been on various forums in the past, including unmoderated ones where things could get pretty hairy, and the attrition here exceeds anything I've seen. I hate to lean on some old saw about artists being "sensitive"; I suspect writers run the normal gamut of personality types. But we are talking about things that are super-important to us (our writing, our livelihoods), so maybe it's easier to get hurt. Maybe it's because we're all so busy, and when you're overworked, why stick with something that's sometimes aggravating? Or maybe, in most cases, people just stop having the time.

Whatever the reason, I wish it weren't the case. A number of the folks whose posts I enjoyed most when I joined up are gone or rarely post, and many of the people whose posts I most enjoy now will probably be gone in a year or two. Not enough continuity.

FWIW, I don't see any major change in the WC's tone compared to when I joined up in early 2012. There've always been opinionated people, arguments, interpersonal frictions, locked threads, and so forth. But maybe the change y'all are talking about is the last couple years compared to earlier.


----------



## Joseph Turkot (Nov 9, 2012)

I also heard he's stockpiling ammo.


----------



## Lloyd MacRae (Nov 18, 2012)

If you click on his profile it says:

Last Active: Today at 10:28:16 AM

So maybe he IS watching from the grassy knoll


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

This is just like life.  People come and people go.  Things happen.  People get busy, change hobbies/livelyhoods.    This is the Internet so you notice it more when one of the more prominent posters disappear.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

This thread has been viewed 1808 times. Nobody is famous!

This is the thing about it. The more time I spend on KB, the less time I spend on writing. And the more of an indie prawn I shrivel up into.

What about other top indies like Russell Blake, Hugh Howey, Elle Casey, HM Ward? How often do they post? We should follow their footsteps. Maybe spend less time on KB and write more.

Uh-oh. My 10 minutes are up.


----------



## Randall Boleyn (Mar 8, 2012)

'J No' (we call him that and he's cool with it) is still posting almost daily, but you gotta have the code. None of y'all in the loop?


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

MacWillard said:


> I noticed this, too. Casey, Reine, Ward and the like. Once they hit big they seem to wander off


Maybe. But my guess is they may have decided _not to cast their pearls before swine_, as the good book says. The whole TG uproar left a bad taste in many a mouth, I reckon. It did in mine. My suspicion is, they up and moved to their own blogs and websites. It's a real shame, and I think it most unfortunate; we are diminished by their absence.


----------



## Deena Ward (Jun 20, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> I told y'all a few big names are gone or posting fewer and fewer. Look around at the Cafe names. Missing some good friends?
> 
> They won't be posting for a while.


Well, h***. Much missed.


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Mad H said:


> Maybe. But my guess is they may have decided _not to cast their pearls before swine_, as the good book says. The whole TG uproar left a bad taste in many a mouth, I reckon. It did in mine. My suspicion is, they up and moved to their own blogs and websites. It's a real shame, and I think it most unfortunate; we are diminished by their absence.


What does TG stand for? I thought I was up to date on all the recent uproars. 

I miss Joe too!  Hopefully he is doing OK.


----------



## Rob Lopez (Jun 19, 2012)

The 'TG uproar'? Have I missed something? I too thought I was up to date on the controversial posts.


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Drew Smith said:


> Maybe they kept reading how their generous posts detailing how they are selling great numbers of books are making people feel sad. Or are some sort of power play to make themselves the King or Queen of the WC. Or how, when they finally ask for a little help after years of posting helpful posts for those of us following them, they think they are the pretty princess of the WC demanding special treatment.
> 
> Why stick around when thread after thread seems to be saying you are insensitive, smug, and unfeeling?


It would not surprise me if this were the exact reason. Most unfortunate.


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Mad H said:


> Maybe. But my guess is they may have decided _not to cast their pearls before swine_, as the good book says. The whole TG uproar left a bad taste in many a mouth, I reckon. It did in mine. My suspicion is, they up and moved to their own blogs and websites. It's a real shame, and I think it most unfortunate; we are diminished by their absence.


Yup. Plus one or two big threads while I was gone for a couple of weeks there. I still haven't been able to catch up on all those posts but I did read the post by Hugh about not posting so much for a while.

Understandable. It's difficult to offer anything when the hand gets bitten every time.


----------



## Rob Lopez (Jun 19, 2012)

Gennita Low said:


> Yup. Plus one or two big threads while I was gone for a couple of weeks there. I still haven't been able to catch up on all those posts but I did read the post by Hugh about not posting so much for a while.
> 
> Understandable. It's difficult to offer anything when the hand gets bitten every time.


Has that thread been deleted then, because I'm still in the dark with regards to what this is about. I mean, I remember the 'quality' threads that got locked up, but nothing about Hugh or Joe not posting so much for a while.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

There's a bit of paranoia going around, and a few hard feelings.

Most authors I know are kind souls with their hearts on their sleeves, willing to help each other with honesty and integrity.

However, it always gets weird when a space that feels private reminds you that it isn't private.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

M. Prawnypants said:


> There's a bit of paranoia going around, and a few hard feelings.
> 
> Most authors I know are kind souls with their hearts on their sleeves, willing to help each other with honesty and integrity.
> 
> However, it always gets weird when a space that feels private reminds you that it isn't private.


Pew! Pew! Straight to the heart of the matter.


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

M. Prawnypants said:


> There's a bit of paranoia going around, and a few hard feelings.
> 
> Most authors I know are kind souls with their hearts on their sleeves, willing to help each other with honesty and integrity.
> 
> However, it always gets weird when a space that feels private reminds you that it isn't private.


I'm not quite sure it's a public/private issue. I think Drew summed it up nicely.

There was a lot of discussion about how everybody should be treated equally.

I guess we're all equal now. But I'd gladly trade my so-called equality for the interesting, generous information those departed friends provided-- hearts on sleeves.


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

This makes me really sad. I didn't realize the TexasGirl thing was such an issue. I bought her book, read it, loved it -- a no brainer given all the advice she's shared. 

The WC has been flamier lately. Elle's threads, in particular, were always really interesting and valuable, but somehow the last few got out of control. And I thought the outside-blog-posts were a phase, but the negative chi remains. I regret ever posting in the first Wendig thread. 

I believe there has been an influx of new members to the WC. That will certainly change the feel of a place, for better or worse. 

I've followed the WC for the better part of 3 years so I know changes are inevitable, but lately, the positive helpful threads are becoming harder to find. But where else is there? If someone knows, I am begging you to PM me. I don't know of any other writer's communities like this one.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

When you drive helpful people out--they tend not to come back for more. Would you?


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Mad H said:


> I'm not quite sure it's a public/private issue. I think Drew summed it up nicely.
> 
> There was a lot of discussion about how everybody should be treated equally.
> 
> I guess we're all equal now. But I'd gladly trade my so-called equality for the interesting, generous information those departed friends provided-- hearts on sleeves.


I was a proponent of equality. I'm still stunned that's controversial. But if the board doesn't want that I'm happy to leave. Maybe it's for the best. This place leaves me scratching my head or looking for the scotch far too often these days.

Once the rabble rousers like me who think equality is something to strive for leave, you can have all the "stars" here you want.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I just heard from Joe.  He said he's been really busy but will be back soon.  Doing happy dance. 

As far as some of the others who are also very well missed, some started getting hit with one star reviews soon after posting certain threads. The same thing was happening in another forum and a lot of the people from there came here, so maybe the bad came with the good?  Sad. I managed to go for a couple of years with nothing but good reviews and around the same time they got hit, I got both a 2 and a 1 star. Hopefully they just didn't like the book, but who knows? 

It is sad when people feel they need to keep a low profile to protect themselves.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Monique,

Don't you dare think of leaving. You are Dara are two of the first people I met when I got here and are my anchors. If either of you were to go, I'd be very upset.


----------



## Just Browsing (Sep 26, 2012)

Things were never as good as the good old days. Your college was better just a few years before you got there. Every Internet forum I've ever visited, it seems, was like Eden until roughly six months before I joined, so I can't appreciate how wonderful it truly was, unlike how terrible it is now. Gmail was better, Facebook was better, sex was better, the air smelt sweeter, the shows kids watch on TV today are crap compared to what I watched growing up (anyone who thinks that had better not check out any childhood favorites on YouTube... OMG. I must have been a child idiot.).

You can't step in the same stream twice. Make the forum you wish to be have. Ignore the threads you don't want. People come, people go--I bet the going has more to do with their own lives though than people's posting habits here. This is just one tiny piece of someone's life. They have families and careers and hobbies and health issues and vacations and all kinds of stuff going on. One hopes, anyway!


----------



## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I certainly don't want Monique to leave. From my newbie perspective, you have consistently been one of the ones to pop into newbie threads. I greatly appreciate that.


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Monique said:


> I was a proponent of equality. I'm still stunned that's controversial. But if the board doesn't want that I'm happy to leave. Maybe it's for the best. This place leaves me scratching my head or looking for the scotch far too often these days.
> 
> Once the rabble rousers like me who think equality is something to strive for leave, you can have all the "stars" here you want.


Ah ok, It was an equality thing. I can see both sides, I guess... TG's request didn't bother me, but I can see how the precedent could be problematic...

Monique, yours was one of the first indie books I ever bought - not to mention the first book I ever bought for my kindle! Don't go!


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

DianaGabriel said:


> What does TG stand for? I thought I was up to date on all the recent uproars.
> 
> I miss Joe too!  Hopefully he is doing OK.


I missed that one too. I don't read every thread, especially when they get really long. It's too hard to keep up. Anyway, I look for news in the industry mostly, but there doesn't seem to be much going on, and even when there is, the thread gets buried quickly.

Of course, I'm between books or I wouldn't be here now. It's rest time for me. Maybe Joe is just on vacation, I'm sure he deserves it.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Monique said:


> I was a proponent of equality. I'm still stunned that's controversial. But if the board doesn't want that I'm happy to leave. Maybe it's for the best. This place leaves me scratching my head or looking for the scotch far too often these days.
> 
> Once the rabble rousers like me who think equality is something to strive for leave, you can have all the "stars" here you want.


Monique, I still remember the day I figured out I had read your books before I ever thought about writing one. I was so 'fan-girl' to think I'd been rubbing elbows with the author of one of my beloved e-books and didn't even know it--not that my elbow is even remotely close to yours--but we were in the same thread. Same thing with Joe. I have his books in my 'survival closet' sitting right on the shelf... It still blows my mind. We need all of you guys here to continue to guide us newbs.

Eta: I just pulled up your first book and it says I bought it July 20, 2011... And I still remembered the main characters name when I mentioned it in my discovery thread


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Monique said:


> I was a proponent of equality. I'm still stunned that's controversial. But if the board doesn't want that I'm happy to leave. Maybe it's for the best. This place leaves me scratching my head or looking for the scotch far too often these days.
> 
> Once the rabble rousers like me who think equality is something to strive for leave, you can have all the "stars" here you want.


I no more represent the board than you do.  I don't believe you were ever called _a rabble rouser. _ I certainly haven't asked you to leave. 

But I know from direct conversation why at least one of the very helpful names on this forum departed. 

And I don't really think it has anything to do with "the good old days." It has everything to do with what Drew encapsulated. For many, that was the straw.

But--whatever. It's just an Internet forum. I'm sure it will continue to be helpful for many folks. I regret, however, what happened.

And by the way, there is equality in civil society, and equality on an Internet forum. I know the difference between the two in my mind, and I'll stand by my observation.


----------



## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I really shouldn't speak for anyone else. I don't know why people leave, but I do know that leopards don't change their spots, and therefore people must find some place to post 7-8 times a day, LOL.

I've been posting a little more on FB lately, where I'm in a bunch of groups. But more than that, I've been working hard on the ol' WIP.

My business philosophies have changed a lot over the years. The more I learn, the less helpful I get, because I realize that most people have to figure out whatever they need to figure out, in their own time and in their own way.

Also, I can't really whine about things if I'm selling books. And if I can't whine about things, there goes half my material.


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

Hmm... I thought it was just me. 

I figured I was just getting to the place where I literally couldn't have the free-is-evil conversation one more time, after all.

Honestly, this place, while awesome, is also seriously repetitive. The really cool innovative new stuff is few and far between. But when we do get a cool, innovative new post (most recently, I think TK's Google Play one is the last game-changer that I remember), then I'm always happy that I've stuck around.

There have been mass exoduses before. Who remembers Modwitch? Remember how everything that she said was so freaking helpful and amazing that it just blew your mind? Man, I sure do miss that lady.

Who remembers George Berger? He was HILARIOUS, and this place is not the same without him.

Through it all, the board surges on. 

With the stratosphere stars, I think they sort of end up with less and less to talk about here. Like, after you've shared your strategies for getting visiblity, and you're very visible, then are you going to keep looking for more ways to try to get visibility for your book? You can tell everyone what you did over and over and over again, or you can spend more time playing around with your made-up friends in your head, which is what we all like to do most of all, right? 

Anyway, I think there are other concerns that authors have once they've moved to another level of sales. I'm sure they want to talk to other authors about them. Lately, though, it seems there's this weird undercurrent where everyone's going out of their way to be like, "Look, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad by talking about how I'm successful...." So maybe some people feel as if they can't discuss their issues because others think "successful" people don't have important issues or because they think others resent their success.

And maybe some people do.

Speaking for myself, I never resented anyone's success, but I did resent another prevalent undercurrent in the boards which was this idea that everyone who's not a millionaire deserves it because they're lazy. I'd be totally happy if that undercurrent went away, personally.  Anyway, I apologize if, by arguing that hard work doesn't necessarily always equal $$$$$, I made anyone feel that I resented their $$$$$, 'cause I really don't. At all. And if other people do resent you, well, that's their problem, I think.

It would be utterly awesome if all of the cool people never left. But personally, I don't want these new people to think that we aren't welcoming them with open arms. So... a huge WC group hug to you all. I'm sure that there are cool people amongst your number. Give us your wisdom, please. (just not about whether or not free is evil. )


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

There was a time threads devolved into Zardoz. But nowadays?










There were always flame wars, but it doesn't even seem like people are reading half the posts anymore. I see a lot of grudge settling. I see a lot of piling on. I see a lot of locks. I have no idea why JN stopped posting. I only know that when he advocated for a revenue-based reporting model like Hollywood uses, he got publicly flogged for a dozen pages. It left a sour taste in my mouth. I have no idea what impact it had on his.

Perhaps I'm just getting jaded, but I took a break for a month and didn't feel worse for it. I logged back in when Sony bailed out of the market. I wanted to understand how the change might affect me. However, even with Mark Coker joining the discussion, the thread didn't even make it beyond the second page. But that one about the thousand-and-first industry insider to dump on self-publishing? Seven pages and counting. And don't think I'm hating on that debate. It's one I've engaged in a number of times. I'm only pointing out the disparity. Put simply, the conversations that interest me are dwindling and so is the amount of time I spend idling here.

B.


----------



## Rusty Bigfoot (Jul 6, 2011)

Joe Nobody missing?

One word - Bigfoot.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

I just want to say while there are super awesome people posting on KB, this is not the place that helped me kick start my career.

And I never linked my books b/c of precisely what's driving people away now. It's common behavior, unfortunately, and it is not limited to KB.

Come to KB to kill time and get a pulse on what's new, but this is not the forum to that will make or break you. It's vital to bond with other authors in your genre and spin off from KB into smaller groups that can build mutual trust and support networks.

If KB wants to be a powerhouse for indie authors, they need to start setting some boundaries. Booting the IM marketeers who come here to prey on newbies. And banning threads like some of the recent 'I got a one star review wah wah' ones I've seen. Indie publishing is growing up and KB needs to grow with it.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Cherise Kelley said:


> It's sad. His last few posts were about being targeted whenever he posted. Sad to see him go.


This.


DianaGabriel said:


> The WC has been flamier lately. Elle's threads, in particular, were always really interesting and valuable, but somehow the last few got out of control. And I thought the outside-blog-posts were a phase, but the negative chi remains. I regret ever posting in the first Wendig thread.
> 
> I believe there has been an influx of new members to the WC. That will certainly change the feel of a place, for better or worse.
> 
> I've followed the WC for the better part of 3 years so I know changes are inevitable, but lately, the positive helpful threads are becoming harder to find. But where else is there? If someone knows, I am begging you to PM me. I don't know of any other writer's communities like this one.


This. Joe will be around occassionally. I've talked to quite a few of the ones who posted helpful stuff in the past, and we came to the same conclusion. When you get new people in, making pot shots, not understanding how most here post their stats, sales, experiences with marketing and advertising, it gets to the point where you say, "I don't need this sh**. Let them learn for themselves. 
1) When they take helpful advice as someone being condescending rather than looking at it as, "Hey yeah, maybe I should fill out my Author Central profile", or even "I didn't know there was such a thing."
2) You share your latest stats on your latest blitz and you get, "What an idiot to try that" rather than "thanks for sharing." 
3) You share your success, and a spate of one star and two star reviews pop up.

Unfortunately, what's happened is you've gotten in a new wave of people who don't "get" what made this place work. Support. Sharing. A rah rah section. Rather, they want to turn it into a bloodsport, see "helpful" as "condescending" and don't take things in the spirit in which they were intended. Who needs that?


----------



## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm sorry that people who have been influential and supportive feel like they're  not welcome here, or that the KB are now more of a drain on them than a place to come and socialize with fellow authors.

If anyone has an issue with anything I've posted or said, I am happy to discuss and debate in PM. I'm going to do my best to stay out of any more public debates on these boards, because, frankly, they're a waste of -my- time, too.

Newbies to the board, don't let this stop you from asking questions or for advice. After all, there are a lot of people who know a lot of things here, and a lot of people doing pretty awesome things with their careers.

Oldbies, please don't stop posting your inspirational 'how I did it' threads. For all the people who want to give you 1-star ratings, there are probably a dozen or more who love reading them, and who pick up great ideas for their futures.

'sall.


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> This.
> This. Joe will be around occassionally. I've talked to quite a few of the ones who posted helpful stuff in the past, and we came to the same conclusion. When you get new people in, making pot shots, not understanding how most here post their stats, sales, experiences with marketing and advertising, it gets to the point where you say, "I don't need this sh**. Let them learn for themselves.
> 1) When they take helpful advice as someone being condescending rather than looking at it as, "Hey yeah, maybe I should fill out my Author Central profile", or even "I didn't know there was such a thing."
> 2) You share your latest stats on your latest blitz and you get, "What an idiot to try that" rather than "thanks for sharing."
> ...


That's right, Lisa. And we are diminished as a community because of this. It's a shame. It embarrasses me that anyone so generous in spirit should be treated this way.

I know I can interact with these folks on their blogs, but it's not quite the same. It's the difference between having coffee with someone and talking to them at a seminar. Interaction on a blog is not quite what it is on a forum like this.

Well, I've expressed my opinion. I miss these people. They were tremendously helpful and I learned a ton from them. I miss them being here.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Unfortunately, what's happened is you've gotten in a new wave of people who don't "get" what made this place work. Support. Sharing. A rah rah section. Rather, they want to turn it into a bloodsport, see "helpful" as "condescending" and don't take things in the spirit in which they were intended. Who needs that?


What about the rest of us newbies who are fairly new to KB who want to learn from veteran indies? Just because of some bad apples, the rest of us who are so humbled to be here, awed by the number of talents (indie superstars), asking questions that to you are a piece of cake, we who are wanting to learn, willing to learn from those of you who are ahead of us... Where does that leave us if all the "good guys" are gone and the people left are those who insult us newbies as if we're stupid? What about the lurkers who are afraid to speak up because the atmosphere is turning toxic?

It was only months ago that I stepped out as a writer. I've been writing in the closet for 17 years, afraid to show anyone my work for fear of being laughed at, and rejection letters didn't help me get brave LOL. When someone told me about KB, it was like walking onto a yellow brick road. I was so encouraged to go ahead and step out and get my MSS edited and formatted, get the covers done, and move out into the sunshine. KB is a large part of my overcoming my fears as a self-publisher (if not for KB (and God) I'd still be sitting in the query queue begging lit agents). Sure, there are some flame wars, but most of the KB superstars are nice and encouraging and saying -- be brave, and go for it. Don't be afraid to publish. You can do it. That encouragement will take me to the finish line. So I thank you now.

And I would be sad to see backlash shut down this place where writers come to share ideas. This is the hub for indies. As someone else asked -- if not KB, where else?


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Perhaps I'm just getting jaded, but I took a break for a month and didn't feel worse for it. I logged back in when Sony bailed out of the market. I wanted to understand how the change might affect me. However, even with Mark Coker joining the discussion, the thread didn't even make it beyond the second page. But that one about the thousand-and-first industry insider to dump on self-publishing? Seven pages and counting. And don't think I'm hating on that debate. It's one I've engaged in a number of times. I'm only pointing out the disparity. Put simply, the conversations that interest me are dwindling and so is the amount of time I spend idling here.
> 
> B.


I've noticed your absence and missed your participation, B.

And, like Valerie said, George Berger's departure left a big hole. There's no filling it.

Look, I can't think of a way to say this without sounding obnoxious, so I'll just say it and, you know, sound obnoxious: if all the coolest people leave because the WC is aggravating, they'll be saving themselves some aggravation, yes, but the loss to the community is significant. I hope people stick it out -- despite the annoyance, despite the repetitious threads, despite the occasional revenge-by-review, despite the misunderstanding and lack of gratitude -- because you don't get a good community without people who're willing to make sacrifices for it, and good communities are rare and valuable. IMNSHO.


----------



## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> This.
> This. Joe will be around occassionally. I've talked to quite a few of the ones who posted helpful stuff in the past, and we came to the same conclusion. When you get new people in, making pot shots, not understanding how most here post their stats, sales, experiences with marketing and advertising, it gets to the point where you say, "I don't need this sh**. Let them learn for themselves.
> 1) When they take helpful advice as someone being condescending rather than looking at it as, "Hey yeah, maybe I should fill out my Author Central profile", or even "I didn't know there was such a thing."
> 2) You share your latest stats on your latest blitz and you get, "What an idiot to try that" rather than "thanks for sharing."
> ...












Yup.


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I was off-line January 14-31, so I didn't witness actual events. However, I am aware of the tone and attitude that is being discussed in this thread. Hopefully, everyone takes a deep breath and calms down the rhetoric. Digs aren't clever; they're demeaning. Let's get back to questions and discussions on self-publishing, building success, and the industry in general. If the monster isn't fed, the monster ceases to exist.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Here is a thought.  2 biggies here have major things going on right now.   JN may have  something  going on too and can't post.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I guess some didn't see my post upthread.  I have heard from Joe..he is very busy at the moment but asked me to pass along a howdy. I'm sure he will be back when he is out of his busy period.  Jeez...am I invisible?


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Frankly, I had no idea this was going on.
I always thought of this board as a platform for open discussion.
In this business there are no veterans. It's too young for that.

That said,

* Since I became a member here, late 2010, many people have left the board, reverted to lurker status or just interact less than they used to. What's different now?
* How are new arrivals supposed to learn if they can't state their opinions? How can anyone correct those opinions if they're not allowed to voice them? Of course your first one-star review hurts when you are a newly self-published author. What's so evil about giving them a few pats on the shoulder, a few shushing words that things will get better and that they'll get used to it. And that they shouldn't reply. And yes that means saying the same things over and over. It's what teachers do their whole career.
* Of course there will occasionally be conflict. There is a huge variety in experience and ultimate goals. Some of us just want to tell stories and share them for a reasonable remuneration, others want to make serious money. Some of us have a family and kids to put through college, others don't. Some write a few thousand words a day, others need a year or more to finish a book. Why should variety and an exchange of ideas and vision be a bad thing? I, for one, find it fascinating.
* Granted, the tone of the discussions is not always very friendly. Personally, I could have done without my legitimate concerns being called academic grandstanding, but hey, I'm not made of porcelain. I don't break that easy. 

I know that a lot of discussions here made me change my opinions. I particularly remember a thread about having a mailing list (back in the time they weren't all that self-evident). I asked a lot of nitty-gritty questions, because I wasn't convinced they were actually very useful. I'm still grateful to the people who patiently answered my questions, and made me understand (not an easy thing to do) how crucial a good mailing list is.

So, again, I have absolutely no idea what is different this time around.


----------



## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I can finally reveal Joe's secret. Joe Nobody is actually this guy:










Which explains why he has so much time to write.

And here's the proof. Joe knows about guns:


----------



## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

Wait. This is real?

I took this thread as light hearted and posted my first comment as such but if these people are really gone, its a shame. It's like the terrorists win. 

For those who have posted great threads, I don't think you realize how much you've influenced up and coming writers. I know, I was/am one of them.

When I first discovered indie publishing, I read about Amanda Hockings. I went through her whole blog like a great novel and she mentioned WC. I came here, wide eyed and confused about what it all meant and over the following months I found titans to look up to, learn from. I'm positive I would have gone down a bad road of unedited, bad cover and no marketing if I didn't find WC. This place saved me from making terrible mistakes and I found a great community. 

I'm willing to speak for the vast majority of lurkers that may not speak or engage in these conversations: Thank you to those who post. Thank you to those who try to pass on what they have learned. We appreciate it more than you know.

On a personal note: Say it ain't so Elle


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

I see you, JeanneM. *waves*

Sometimes people don't post here when they're really busy. It happens.


----------



## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> I guess some didn't see my post upthread. I have heard from Joe..he is very busy at the moment but asked me to pass along a howdy. I'm sure he will be back when he is out of his busy period. Jeez...am I invisible?


Not at all, was just trying to gather my thoughts on the rest of this. It's way awesome that Joe isn't gone. He's forging a very unique trail and, even though I'm on a different route, I absolutely love having him around to present his experiences, because they prove there are so many different ways to achieve the career we're all after. Thanks for posting.


----------



## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I love the KBs. I honestly don't know where I'd be in my career without them. I attribute some of my best knowledge and biggest success to what I've learned here and it breaks my heart to see and hear that "regulars" are leaving.

I hope those who've left will come back.


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

JeanneM said:


> I guess some didn't see my post upthread. I have heard from Joe..he is very busy at the moment but asked me to pass along a howdy. I'm sure he will be back when he is out of his busy period. Jeez...am I invisible?


Thanks. Tell him I said hi 

(Does anyone else think that Joe Biden's teeth are wayyyyy to white?)


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> What about the rest of us newbies who are fairly new to KB who want to learn from veteran indies?


Here you go, Jan. I shall sum up the vast knowledge of everything useful there is to learn from KBoards.

1-Writing a series is often a pretty good idea 
2-It sometimes helps to price the first book in your series lower than the others as a loss leader. $.99 or Permafree
3-Writing in a popular genre sure doesn't hurt things.
4-Publish frequently.
5-Make sure your work is professional quality--this means everything from story craft to typos to covers to your blurb.
6-Bookbub
7-Lots of people here have found success by pricing lower than the trads, generally under $5.
8-Start a mailing list.
9-Take advantage of cross-promo within your genre. 
10-Bundles and omnibuses
11-If you write romance or YA, Xpresso book tours is pretty freaking awesome.
12-If something's working for someone else, get on the bus fast, because it rarely lasts long once the strategy becomes saturated.
13-Make paperbacks (Use createspace and take the free ISBN)
14-You should market, but you should devote more time to writing than you devote to marketing.

Areas of dissent:
1-It's possible that having your book available on as many platforms as possible is beneficial. It's also possible that KDP Select will launch your career.
2-Success? Hard work or luck? The world may never know.
3-Free books? Great way to make more money and reach more readers or the beginning of the end of any authors making any money at writing? Jury's still out.
4-Chase the market or write the books of your heart? We're not sure.
5-Plotting vs. Pantsing. 'Nuff said.

I mean, I'm oversimplifying for sure, but my point is that we'll all be okay even if we never see our superstar friends again. Besides, within a year or two, we'll have new superstars. Authors break out all the time.

Keep the faith! The sky is not falling!

But I do miss people too, and I don't want things to change either.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Quiss said:


> Thanks. Tell him I said hi
> 
> (Does anyone else think that Joe Biden's teeth are wayyyyy to white?)


THAT was Joe Biden?! Geesh... What he do, find the secret to age reversal? He doesn't look like an angry old man anymore


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> I mean, I'm oversimplifying for sure, but my point is that we'll all be okay even if we never see our superstar friends again. Besides, within a year or two, we'll have new superstars. Authors break out all the time.


This is the big one, I think. Every online forum I've been involved with has exhibited similar cyclical tendencies. Stars form, carry forward a few years, burn out or move on, and their vacancies are gradually filled by new stars who pay forward what they learned from the earlier ones. Mourn the ones who leave for good, celebrate the ones who take a break and come back, but as long as people keep stepping up to answer newbie questions and to keep learning and teaching, the forum itself rolls (or sometimes staggers) forward.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Quiss said:


> (Does anyone else think that Joe Biden's teeth are wayyyyy to white?)


OMG, *creepy* white!!!


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

JimJohnson said:


> This is the big one, I think. Every online forum I've been involved with has exhibited similar cyclical tendencies. Stars form, carry forward a few years, burn out or move on, and their vacancies are gradually filled by new stars who pay forward what they learned from the earlier ones. Mourn the ones who leave for good, celebrate the ones who take a break and come back, but as long as people keep stepping up to answer newbie questions and to keep learning and teaching, the forum itself rolls (or sometimes staggers) forward.


This is true, Jim. But what Lisa and Drew encapsulated also contains the truth. Personally, I don't want to let the community off the hook by simply writing off the loss of people to evolution. We all have responsibility for what we post and words have consequences.

The forum _will_ roll on. I just think reflection is in order.


----------



## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

valeriec80 said:


> Here you go, Jan. I shall sum up the vast knowledge of everything useful there is to learn from KBoards.
> 
> 1-Writing a series is often a pretty good idea
> 2-It sometimes helps to price the first book in your series lower than the others as a loss leader. $.99 or Permafree
> ...


Great summary!


----------



## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

JeanneM said:


> I guess some didn't see my post upthread. I have heard from Joe..he is very busy at the moment but asked me to pass along a howdy. I'm sure he will be back when he is out of his busy period. Jeez...am I invisible?


*Puts on special invisible glasses* _There_ you are, Jeanne! 

On the whole subject of oldies leaving, I think there's a couple things behind it:

* As people become more successful, they get busier. That alone is a common reason for old-timers moving on. As writing becomes a bigger source of their income, they've got to devote more time to it, leaving them less time to socialize.

* People naturally drift away from online communities as their need for them lessens. Its always been that way here in the WC. Veterans inevitably reach a point where they've run out of questions of their own. They could stay for socializing and to answer the questions of new indies but some may start to feel drained by that. A veteran's needs aren't the same as a first-timer's, so the help they need in return may be different from what a newbie needs. Which brings me to another reason...

* There's been more negativity than usual on KB. The whole TG incident and a couple similar occasions left me feeling much less cozy than I used to be. I've always treated KB a bit like my living room so recent events took me aback. Now I stop and consider before each post, wondering if what I say will seem like I'm putting myself forward or will be taken out of context. I'm used to keeping my posts guarded on AW but not here. I hope that feeling goes away but we'll see. If anybody knows where the last wave of KBers went, please PM me. I learned a lot from particular members and would like to keep following them.


----------



## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

A+, good post, would read again


----------



## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

I'd love to see everyone stay on KB. I do get that sometimes people need breaks, though. Hopefully they'll stick around and continue to share their insights and experiences. We'll all be the better for it.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

JanThompson said:


> What about the rest of us newbies who are fairly new to KB who want to learn from veteran indies? Just because of some bad apples, the rest of us who are so humbled to be here, awed by the number of talents (indie superstars), asking questions that to you are a piece of cake, we who are wanting to learn, willing to learn from those of you who are ahead of us... Where does that leave us if all the "good guys" are gone and the people left are those who insult us newbies as if we're stupid? What about the lurkers who are afraid to speak up because the atmosphere is turning toxic?
> 
> It was only months ago that I stepped out as a writer. I've been writing in the closet for 17 years, afraid to show anyone my work for fear of being laughed at, and rejection letters didn't help me get brave LOL. When someone told me about KB, it was like walking onto a yellow brick road. I was so encouraged to go ahead and step out and get my MSS edited and formatted, get the covers done, and move out into the sunshine. KB is a large part of my overcoming my fears as a self-publisher (if not for KB (and God) I'd still be sitting in the query queue begging lit agents). Sure, there are some flame wars, but most of the KB superstars are nice and encouraging and saying -- be brave, and go for it. Don't be afraid to publish. You can do it. That encouragement will take me to the finish line. So I thank you now.
> 
> And I would be sad to see backlash shut down this place where writers come to share ideas. This is the hub for indies. As someone else asked -- if not KB, where else?


Nobody wants anybody in awe. Especially the Joe Nobodys' and the Hugh Howeys. They are all around great guys, great writers, and just wanted to share their experience. They wanted to share the workings of the process, share what did, didn't work, discuss new developments in publishing, how it can help us, to see how we could all benefit. Sharing as writer to writer. However, there seemed to be an element that just can't believe that, and took the sharing as "look at me" bragging.
But if you'd seen these people from day 1, when they had no idea how successful they would become, sharing from their hearts, you would know it wasn't intended as anything more than sharing from the heart.


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Guys...glad you can see me. 

 GIFSoup


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

Geez, every time I take a break I miss a kerfuffle...


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Drew Gideon said:


> The last I remember reading from Joe, he had asked us about suggestions on how to handle a really bad review (which turned into a long negative conversation between him and the reviewer in his book's review section).
> Someone named Sean found the thread here, went over to the review conversation on Zon, and pasted in a link telling the angry reviewer to come here and see what Joe was saying about him.
> Immediately, Joe went silent. I would have, too. At least until it all blew over and/or a lawyer told me it was okay to start speaking again.
> I'm glad to hear he's doing okay. (Thanks Jeanne)
> ...


Several have publicly stated here they won't be posting much anymore. I posted I won't be sharing my advertising or marketing promos/stats here anymore because of the comments to me and others like me.


----------



## ecg52 (Apr 29, 2013)

Wow! I had no idea all these undercurrents were going on. I love this forum. I come on here and scroll through the subjects of posts and click on the ones that seem interesting to me. If there's a squabble going on, I leave. If it turns out not to be interesting, I leave. If I feel I have something to say or contribute, I do that. 
I've read through most of this thread. I rarely read through a 5 page thread, but I got caught up in all the reasons why people leave and all the little undercurrents going on that I've never noticed.
Could it be some of us are a little too sensitive? I never feel someone is bragging when they tell what they've done to be successful. I'm happy for them and hope by copying some of their methods, I too will be successful. 
I'm happy to hear Joe Nobody is just busy and will be back. 
I hope Hugh and Elle and others will post again.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey all.  A friend alerted me to this thread, so I popped in to clear the air.  I see a lot of conjecturing that's way off base, so let me set the record straight.

1.  I am not too busy to post on KB.
2.  I have not abandoned my fellow writers because I hit it big.
3.  I have not run out of useful things to say because you all "need to figure it out for yourselves".
4.  I'm not protesting not being treated better than others.

I stopped posting here after (1) being accused of doing something self-serving when I was offering the chance for other authors to connect with my readers via FB, (2) being given a rash of 1-stars and 2-stars from people who obviously hadn't read my books and a ton of downvotes, and (3) reading the horrible exposé that a total dickweed from KB posted on his website (name withheld) attacking Joe Nobody, someone who I respect greatly.  A bunch of people (like that dickweed) from Amazon's forums came over here and the mood just got ugly.

I love all you guys and want you all to succeed and see every single one of your dreams come true.  However, I cannot help you do that at risk to my own livelihood.  Turning me into the bad guy when all I'm trying to do is help, and hurting the reputation of my books by affecting their ratings does that.  This place was just no longer a safe place for me to share anymore.  I don't want to speak for Joe, but I'm guessing he feels the same way.  He did tell me he wasn't going to be coming to KB anymore after he was attacked by that KB member.

It made me really sad to see all the piling on of other members and the negative remarks and the obvious nasty jealousy that's being harbored here, because KB was my writer-home. I know it's a public place and there are all types here, but it wasn't like this before.  Maybe someday it will change back, but I doubt it.  There are more and more self-published authors out there, which means there are going to be more and more unhappy people looking to get rich quick who will harbor resentment against those who do find success while they don't.

Anyone who wants advice from me is welcome to contact me. I haven't lost my will to help others, just the platform on which I was doing it.  I also want to say that I've got nothing but love for Harvey and Betsy.  They work really hard to make this a resource for us indies and I personally learned a lot here.  

Cheers~


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Gotta say, this is all sort of heart-breaking.


----------



## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Gotta say, this is all sort of heart-breaking.


Heartbreaking, and completely understandable. We reap what we sow. I remain embarrassed that Elle had to go through this, as well as Texas Girl and Joe.

The three of you are a class act.

Elle, thank you for everything you've shared here. I am the richer for it, and the poorer for you leaving. But I'll be in touch.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've been mostly lurking here for four years. People come and go, attitudes come and go.  It sucks that the negativity is running high right now, but I've noticed that those kinds of feelings also tend to come and go.

I do see what Elle is saying about bitterness and professional jealously showing up more lately. It's something that happens a lot in the trad world, too. Kind of the dirty little secret of writers that lots of people experience from both sides but no one likes to talk about.  It's ugly and it sucks to be on either end of it and it is never productive or helpful.


----------



## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

This is the problem of literally every forum that starts getting bigger than the community that held the original values. I've seen it over and over, and, unfortunately, I've never seen a solution. A private forum with donations was one idea, but even then, if anyone can purchase, it suffers the same fate. 

This just sucks.


----------



## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

As so ever I' late to this thread, and my post may be redundant, since many have said what I wanted to say when I finally caught up in this thread.

I, also find it sad that a bunch of people just became members so that they could stir up the friendly atmosphere here. I'm almost sure they left again, now that their goal is reached.

But I'm more sad, that those succeeded in their goal, poison the atmosphere, cause distrust and driving away and robbing us of valuable and apprecited members. And that a few troublemakers are able to destroy faith in a friendly community. And leave the rest of us bewildered and robbed of wisdom. Sad, that they succeeded so easily. 

It may be too late, but I do hope those members who left are still watching and pipe in once and again, maybe will post, when they see the disquieter, who jeopardized their livinghood, have wandered off again for good. But I doubt it.


----------



## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

I'll just add, for the last 5 years I have hardly ever gone to another public board because of all the viciousness and childishness. For the last 5 years, I've pretty much considered KB my online "home" as a message board because KB felt like a safe, informative place. Every now and then that "safe" aspect felt a little silly to me, but of late, I've come to understand it and cherish it. Why? Because I see it being whittled away a little more every day.

About Joe, glad to hear he's keeping busy. I hope he makes it back over here eventually.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I was sick most of January, and it seems I missed some stuff.



> Such a terrible thing, I'll never understand why there are people who do this sort of thing!


Some people just like to stir up excrement and watch the fallout. Sad, pitiful people. I would not dream of giving someone a low review (or mark one helpful) just because I didn't agree with something they posted, an opinion they held, or really, any other reason. That's childish.

EelKat, I know the board you're talking about, which I came to after that big kerfluffle. Still a hateful attitude towards self-publishers, and no hiding it. I used to wander over there for the writing threads, and info about publishers/agents/contests/etc, but it's just too much bother for very little return.



valeriec80 said:


> Here you go, Jan. I shall sum up the vast knowledge of everything useful there is to learn from KBoards.
> 
> 1-Writing a series is often a pretty good idea
> 2-It sometimes helps to price the first book in your series lower than the others as a loss leader. $.99 or Permafree
> ...


Well, there you go! That pretty much sums it up. Everybody copy and paste this into a Word document, and we can close the Internet. 



> I mean, I'm oversimplifying for sure, but my point is that we'll all be okay even if we never see our superstar friends again. Besides, within a year or two, we'll have new superstars. Authors break out all the time.
> 
> Keep the faith! The sky is not falling!
> 
> But I do miss people too, and I don't want things to change either.


Yeah, it's hard to see some members go. I miss modwitch terribly. She was an early adapter of Select, and shared loads of great info about that, and writing/publishing in general. On the other hand, there are some I don't miss at all, because they seemed to post only to start something, or just be contrary in general.

All forums change with time, as new members come in and others move on. I've given up on some forums, but I still have high hopes that the Writer's Cafe can mellow out again. We can all do our part by thinking before we hit that post button. The gods know _I_ do. Often. My delete key is wearing out.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Mad H said:


> This is true, Jim. But what Lisa and Drew encapsulated also contains the truth. Personally, I don't want to let the community off the hook by simply writing off the loss of people to evolution. We all have responsibility for what we post and words have consequences.
> 
> The forum _will_ roll on. I just think reflection is in order.


And I think the forum has some responsibility too. There have been some very skeevy posters tolerated here when it was obvious they were Warrior Forums IM types looking to make a buck off this community. Then you have the poor behavior and tantrums that people help turn into mega threads...nip those in the bud.

A free-for-all had value when no one knew what was going on, but now that we have some parameters of how this indie thing works, the free-for-all mentality is not as profitable. The forum needs to be sure they're attracting and retaining the members who know what they are doing.

But again, start here, don't stay here. If KB is your only source of indie information, you need to branch out. The self publishing loops are good, Marie Force, IndieRomanceInk etc... have little to none of the nonsense here.

M


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I stopped posting here after (1) being accused of doing something self-serving when I was offering the chance for other authors to connect with my readers via FB, (2) being given a rash of 1-stars and 2-stars from people who obviously hadn't read my books and a ton of downvotes, and (3) reading the horrible exposé that a total dickweed from KB posted on his website (name withheld) attacking Joe Nobody, someone who I respect greatly. A bunch of people (like that dickweed) from Amazon's forums came over here and the mood just got ugly.


Here's a conspiracy theory...who here has seen a forum targeted by trolls before? They seek to cause bad feelings and conflict whenever possible and disrupt hierarchy/established relationships. They also try to fit in and look like they belong. They might even be helpful and kind at points to build credibility.

KB just didn't have people from Amazon's forums here recently, there were some slick internet marketeers (profiteers+marekters) clearly looking for an angle. But there were all these successful writers sharing info that I imagine they saw as direct competition. (I bet if we poked around long enough on forums like Warrior Forums we'd find someone saying to target KB as a potential income generator.)

A few bad reviews spurred on by jealousy sounds about right, but multiple reviews and downvotes? Seems a little too coordinated to me and expensive for one person to hire out. And hey look, it got you to step back a bit on KB! Huh. Interesting.

Again, KB needs to start paying attention to how they're going to keep this forum from meeting the same fate as Amazon's. Low barrier to entry is great when no one has anything to lose, but the game has changed.

M


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

mrv01d said:


> And I think the forum has some responsibility too. There have been some very skeevy posters tolerated here when it was obvious they were Warrior Forums IM types looking to make a buck off this community. Then you have the poor behavior and tantrums that people help turn into mega threads...nip those in the bud.
> 
> A free-for-all had value when no one knew what was going on, but now that we have some parameters of how this indie thing works, the free-for-all mentality is not as profitable. The forum needs to be sure they're attracting and retaining the members who know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


Cool. Any sites not romance?


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

markecooper said:


> Cool. Any sites not romance?


I haven't found any yet. I've considered adding that on as part of the I Read Fantasy platform but haven't had much time to look into it.

M


----------



## 48209 (Jul 4, 2011)

I wasn't going to post. I really wasn't. And not just because of this thread, but because last week I quit KB. But, this thread is being talked about off-board in about a bazillion places.

So, here goes....

This thread, the very one discussing why people are leaving, is missing the point. You're all asking where the BIG NAME authors have gone? Where are our "super stars" where are our "famous writers" .... and yet, this board has lost a ton of talent that none of you mention. People who put in hours quietly encouraging others and answering questions.

This board has become a SANTA! I KNOW HIM! place. Yay. You're all on a board with Hugh Howey. Good for you.  (No offence Hugh.)

You're also on a board with a lot of amazing people who are either:
1. one day going to be huge but you'll miss out bc they already left bc they were under valued
2. are doing amazing now but because they're not famous you don't know it bc they don't tell you how much they're making
3. people who are never going to be rich or famous bc of subgenre/speed/luck/whatever but have a lot of knowledge and experience and should be valued.

In the last three weeks I've watched people argue blindly with some people who I know are doing some AMAZING things out there. People who have more knowledge about self-publishing in their toenails than most of us have period. But because they're not huge names/famous outside their genre, they must not know anything. I've watched people literally ask how pissed off they can get people. I've seen people say "I don't write or read that genre, but..." and because they're popular or snarky suddenly their information about something they know nothing about is valued more. I've watched people offer others help and be bitch slapped. I watched one person call the group on this and get re-bitch slapped.

Personally, after watching so many threads about "what is select free doing now with the restructure" I tracked my free run and posted the pre/during/post numbers and compared them to a free run 11 months before thinking people would value that information.

Not one person replied.... was my post that stupid? Did no one really want those numbers? Did I accidentally speak gibberish? Or do I not have a name that people here recognize so my data is useless?

Are people leaving because this stuff is old hat to them? OR are they leaving because it's become a place where we value the wrong things and instead of being a positive, restuf community filled with resources it's snarklandia?

I've posted less...and lesss...and leesssssss here as my posts have been ignored even when it's something right in my wheelhouse. And then, bam. I quit. And of course no one noticed (altho, back when I got less involved, I got several lovely notes about missing my positivity and FF FRIDAY... thank you lovely folks *hugs* I’ve been excited to watch several of you take off! Keep it up – It’s going to be great!!!)

You newbies want information? Well, let me give you some advice: When you decide to listen to people because they're clever or snarky or popular instead of listening to people who are talking from experience, the experienced people are going to stop wasting their time.

ALSO, I keep seeing people be like "Why can't the famous people put up with a couple cutting remarks and 1star drive by reviews and people telling them their snobs and arguing with them about stuff they knows works, and …. to stay and help us for the greater good?"

Why should they? Why should anyone stay somewhere and give, give, give to only get back abuse... for you? Instead, what they should get is "thank you." End of sentence. OR if you really want to thank people, a “Thank you and I just bought your book bc you’ve been invaluable in teaching me about self-publishing.”

This isn't directed at one person. I'm sure a lot of people are going to see themselves in this post (if anyone bothers to read it), but the honest truth is, I'm not here enough to single people out and this thread was repeatitive in the things I pointed out.

I do miss KB the way it was... not because it was the good ole days or who we rubbed shoulders with but because it's what I thought a forum should be:

SAFE COMMUNITY + VALUABLE RESOURCE.

If anyone did bother to read this, it wasn’t an attack or finger pointing or any of that. It was an honest answer of what I feel (and have heard elsewhere). I would LOVE for KB to be the type of place where what was valued before could make a come back.

Here’s to staying positive, searching for answers, and everyone writing to the best of their own journey.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Bria Quinlan said:


> If anyone did bother to read this, it wasn't an attack or finger pointing or any of that. It was an honest answer of what I feel (and have heard elsewhere). I would LOVE for KB to be the type of place where what was valued before could make a come back.


I read this, Bria. You're not 'invisible.'


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

This whole thing makes me want to weep.


----------



## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Bria I am really glad that you and Elle made your posts here. It's things that I've mentioned before but lacked the cache to really drive home. Plus, I didn't want to tell tales out of school, so to speak.

I agree with everything you said. Thank you.


----------



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I rely on the WC for support, and generally I get it. Lately there have been one or two people asking me why I ask so many basic questions (asking for suggestions for names, etc). But most people have been very understanding of my circumstances, and in many ways I've found this forum very helpful.

I'll never be the success that Ella Casey or Hugh Howey is - Children's books aren't that big a genre for indys, and fairy tales are an even smaller subset. But I love hearing about their successes, and sometimes I do get good ideas for how I can improve my own numbers, even though in many ways I'm doing everything wrong (unpopular genre, no series)

It sometimes depresses me that there seems to be a downward pressure for pricing.  It seems to me that, if you're producing quality products, the price ought to reflect that. 

I've learned a lot from Hugh and Ella and Joe and Blake, and I really hope that, after things cool down a bit, they come back. I, at least, need you.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Personally, I haven't felt offended or attacked (but I'm kinda hard to offend), and I haven't had any negative reviews that I would suspect came from so-called "competitors." Sadly, they've all just been ladies who've disliked my books. Sigh. 

I don't get many views on the couple of topics I've posted, either, but that's OK. I mean, it is what it is. Controversial subjects (or subject lines about sex) get discussed and viewed more, and engaged in more, because they arouse emotion.

Next time I post about how to write a blurb, maybe I'll call it, "How to write about sex."  Hey, I read vrabinec's post titled something like that! And responded! 

Nah, it's OK. I figure my stuff is only interesting to certain people, just like I don't read everything here. 

I get a lot out of this place,  and I try to answer and be helpful and encouraging in turn. It's not perfect, but it's suuuuure a lot better than anyplace else I've found. I like hearing different people's experiences, too--people at different stages in their careers, in different genres. I think it's useful. (Though I do turn it off when I'm writing. You've heard from me so much lately because I finished a book and haven't started the next, am editing early books and doing other stuff, which can get a little boring, so I come here and listen!)

So--I hope people stay. I enjoy reading and learning.

Oh, and P.S.: Interestingly, ALL the good stuff that's come to me in the past couple months--and there's been a lot of good stuff--started happening about two weeks after I joined KBoards. It raised my profile or something, I think.


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

beccaprice said:


> I've learned a lot from Hugh and Ella and Joe and Blake, and I really hope that, after things cool down a bit, they come back. I, at least, need you.


THIS.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm basically brand new to these forums.  I found them by accident in December and was immediately thrilled.  Through reading the old posts, I was encouraged and excited to try self publishing.  It's sad that people feel as if they're being chased away and I've seen that happen at countless forums over the year.  I just want to thank everyone who made this forum what it was and is and hope things even out and allow everyone to coexist again soon.


----------



## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time and coming by, Elle and Bria. Am not arguing with you on any point here...   (Although since you left I doubt this will be seen)

In the past I lurked her almost daily, and found myself doing not so much these last weeks. Not because I got slapped or ignored, but of the tone. I will continue to lurk and sometimes even post just as before, and hopeful will see a weather change again. As said before, I'm sad this happened.

And hopefully we, the remaining folk here, will learn from this and stay friendly and objective.


----------



## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> Personally, I haven't felt offended or attacked (but I'm kinda hard to offend), and I haven't had any negative reviews that I would suspect came from so-called "competitors." Sadly, they've all just been ladies who've disliked my books. Sigh.
> 
> I don't get many views on the couple of topics I've posted, either, but that's OK. I mean, it is what it is. Controversial subjects (or subject lines about sex) get discussed and viewed more, and engaged in more, because they arouse emotion.
> 
> ...


I bookmarked that blog post for future reference. I can't remember if I thanked you for it. I'm usually good about those things but if I didn't I apologize. And thanks!


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

A KB member bashed Joe Nobody in his blog which was pretty skeevy. I won't post it, use Google.


----------



## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I appreciate the help, advice, stats, direction, etc. from everyone. I'm not talking just about the so-called "famous" people. I'm talking about ALL the experienced and knowledgeable posters. Often I don't post on threads because I am simply soaking in the information and have nothing more to add. From now on, I will take a moment to post a thank you. *In the meantime, thanks to everyone who has helped me to date! I'd never have been able to self-publish without you.* What I won't be doing is posting in nasty threads. Writing any kind of comment on those seems to feed the monster.

To those of you who left, I hope you continue lurking and will return when you see the proper tone has returned.


----------



## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Bria Quinlan said:


> If anyone did bother to read this...


I read it. <3



> Here's to staying positive, searching for answers, and everyone writing to the best of their own journey.


Hear, hear. *raises glass*


----------



## TwillyJune (May 25, 2012)

Alright already. There's a lot of self-serving I's in these posts and other's like it. I this, I that, I won't come back, I'm a lurker, I didn't because, I read that and blacked out, I won't be posting anymore, because because because because becauuusssse, I don't wanna get hit by a 1 star review. I'm off to no man's land where people appreciate me more!

Well, I got some self-serving I's for you too. I got the flu, I got the asthma and I got the waist-band shingles all in one month. I hurt worse than a sumo-wrestler struck by an iceberg. I lurk more than I post because I usually have nothing to add, and I far more enjoy reading other's thoughts. It's inspiring to me. But I can also be a first-class 'witch', especially now and I don't mind letting you all know about it. So, poster's feelings are getting hurt by drive by hitters? And the response is to retreat into a hole? Guess what? I don't care if feelings got hurt. I only care if you don't retreat into a hole. One star my book? Fine. Give me 80 one stars. I don't care.

What do I care about then? I care that so many fine writer's and author's have lost focus on what is really important. Do you want to continually grow and refine your work as a writer and author? Then you must not insulate yourself from the masses of troubled souls who seem compelled to make other's suffer. You must not insulate yourself from all these negative drive by reviews for fear your livelihood will go up in smoke. That is an unhealthy fear and unsustainable if you want long-lasting success. I mean sure, you can sit on a fancy yacht all by yourself in the middle of the ocean if you want, but eventually a storm is going to come and you better be prepared.

Being a successful writer and author is a lot like being on the other end of a stoning. Ask Stephen King all about that. To make matter's worse the guy got hit by a truck! And yet he still writes, he still advises, he still mentors, he still lectures, he still puts his name on books to help fledgling authors, while at the same time he gets absolutely crucified when he misspeaks on occasion. The punishment does not fit the crime! But he apologizes, moves on and continues to contribute. He is a well-rounded human being, with all the faults that come with being human, but he continues to contribute in a humanitarian way no matter the slings and arrows of misfortune, or verbal attacks.

This is an intolerant, judgmental society we live in. Please don't make it worse by allowing negativity to keep you from contributing to the beginning writer's who are grateful for the time and service that you do put in! Yes, being active on KB and other similar forums makes it easier for people to toss stones at you and your work. But I, for one, will never allow other's to dictate my actions or support a cause that I know is right. 

KB is a good place to be. It is the perfect place to contribute more than just your advice on writing and publishing. There are troubled people everywhere. And yes, they are on KB's. Imo, they need our support, and not censure and condemnation, or being publicly called-out. So, how do we best support them? By contributing to this board, by not getting so easily offended, by being a good example, and by politely setting boundaries where necessary, even at the risk of a bad review.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Twilly...please come back and tell us how we should just take our one star lumps when you actually have a one star review. From your siggy, looks like you don't have much experience in how much money a one star can cost an author.

These authors aren't hiding b/c they can't take the criticism, it's because one stars from petulant authors (and legitimate ones from readers) kill your sales and you make less money.

When you're making a living as a writer, when that income pays your bills, you don't engage in activities that hurt your bottom line. Period. No one should have to hurt themselves to help you or any other indie.


----------



## Wansit (Sep 27, 2012)

TwillyJune said:


> Alright already. There's a lot of self-serving I's in these posts and other's like it. I this, I that, I won't come back, I'm a lurker, I didn't because, I read that and blacked out, I won't be posting anymore, because because because because becauuusssse, I don't wanna get hit by a 1 star review. I'm off to no man's land where people appreciate me more!
> 
> Well, I got some self-serving I's for you too. I got the flu, I got the asthma and I got the waist-band shingles all in one month. I hurt worse than a sumo-wrestler struck by an iceberg. I lurk more than I post because I usually have nothing to add, and I far more enjoy reading other's thoughts. It's inspiring to me. But I can also be a first-class 'witch', especially now and I don't mind letting you all know about it. So, poster's feelings are getting hurt by drive by hitters? And the response is to retreat into a hole? Guess what? I don't care if feelings got hurt. I only care if you don't retreat into a hole. One star my book? Fine. Give me 80 one stars. I don't care.
> 
> ...


I agree on some points, I don't on others. Authors have the right to get offended by drive-by reviews and heckling and ignorance. Because they're people first and foremost. They're all my friends. KB is more than writing and craft-building and marketing. It's a community; a helpful one. No one's getting their panties in a bunch over nothing. It's _something_ and we have to fix it.


----------



## L.M. Pfalz (Aug 31, 2012)

Is it me or do tensions always seem to run high around here at the beginning of a new year? I remember things getting nasty last year too around this time which spurred a megathread about the tone in the Writers' Cafe. I have to wonder if the new year brings about more people who are trying self-publishing, new worries/anxieties from current indies as to what will change for the worse on Amazon and in self-publishing in general, and of course more comments from those who work in traditional publishing because they have their own sets of fear and concerns for their future. I think all these things work together to create a toxic dynamic and environment.

I'm saddened to see a LOT of "us vs them" mentalities lately. It always seemed to mostly be self-pub vs trade pub (which I think is silly enough), but now I'm seeing a lot more of it within the indie community itself. Bestsellers vs midlist vs non-sellers, my sales strategy vs your sales strategy, my rank vs yours, etc. I see the word "jealousy" thrown around a lot lately, and although that may be the case for some of the low sellers (especially the vindictive ones), it's not the case for all of them (us). But being accused of it, even indirectly, well...hurts. I've never begrudged anyone's success, and in fact, have always felt like it's made me work harder to try to achieve my own. But I'm also a realist and know that getting a bestseller is akin to winning the lotto. It may happen, but more likely for most of us, it won't, no matter what we do. There's no surefire way to "make it". And sadly, I've noticed there's been some insinuation that this means the non-bestsellers have failed in some way. I know it's becoming a cliche, but we all have to make our own meaning of success. For me, selling more than I did the year before is success. For others, success might mean moving any copies at all. And still for others, success might mean making six figures or more. Success is a personal achievement and shouldn't be measured against others.

On a different subject, I think the negativity around here could also be greatly reduced by including more things under the WHOA policy. For example, complaints about reviews. Why isn't this part of whoa? Even without specifics, it's not hard to click someone's book link and see who they're referring to. These threads always end badly with hurt feelings. I've seen many an OP walk away feeling unsupported because they feel kicked while already down, and technically they haven't done anything wrong per the forum rules. Since no good ever comes of such topics, why not just disallow them? Maybe it would help authors learn how to deal with reviews in their own (private) way. Thick skin doesn't grow overnight.

Another thing that should be included in the WHOA policy are posting links to blog posts. A LOT of problems lately have been because of some random person saying random negative things about indies. I think we can have open discussions about controversial publishing issues without picking someone out as an example and publicly bashing them back. _Nobody_ wins in these situations.

I came to this forum from a very negative, upsetting writer's forum, and I've always enjoyed this community, even if I mostly lurk here. Now, it's getting to the point where I don't even enjoy reading the posts here as a bystander. And it saddens me to see fewer and fewer familiar faces around here. The advice on this forum is invaluable, but if I have to sift through argument after argument, locked thread after locked thread to find them, then my time is better spent elsewhere. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Bria Quinlan said:


> If anyone did bother to read this, it wasn't an attack or finger pointing or any of that. It was an honest answer of what I feel (and have heard elsewhere). I would LOVE for KB to be the type of place where what was valued before could make a come back.


I read your post. It was no bother.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Sapphire said:


> What I won't be doing is posting in nasty threads. Writing any kind of comment on those seems to feed the monster.


In my opinion, this is the best thing we can all do to help the tone of the forum. And the next best thing is to report the very first nasty post in any thread to the moderators. You can just put in the comment, "Tone".

Please remember too that this is a public forum. Not everyone reading is one of "us". Neither is everyone posting. If someone posts something nasty to you or about you, keep quiet and report it to a moderator. *Unlike most forums on the Internet, KBoards has really good moderators who will nip nastiness in the bud if we report it to them quickly before it gets out of hand.*

The third best thing we can all do, again in my opinion, is stop assuming anything people post is about us. Often, it is not about us, or more specifically it is not about you. I have seen more trouble start here from people assuming a comment was about them than from any other cause, frankly.

In line with that, it is much better if we avoid making comments about people unless they ask for advice. Personal attacks are already against forum decorum rules. I see a lot of pushing these boundaries, and I do report it to the mods.

In particular, I hate it when comments start to go back and forth in a thread and progressively get nastier and nastier as these two posters have a battle of wills. It has happened in this very thread. I wish battles of wills were against the forum rules. It could go something like, "You can quote another member only once per thread to disagree with that member," just to make it easier to administer, but what I really want stopped is the combativeness, the "your argument is weak because" discussions. I think one response telling where you disagree is plenty and that comments back and forth after that are annoying at best and infuriating in most cases.


----------



## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

Bria + hammer = nail on the head.

Sorry to hear about what happened to Joe, Elle and whoever else might have felt marginalized. There are some really amazing people here, there are some good ones who want information to be shared, who are looking for legit help. And then there are ones who already know everything and aren't afraid to tell you about it. 

*shrugs* 

TwillyJune: 

Listen, as someone who left Kboards because of some of the negatives, the drive-bys, the other stuff - It's not that some of us don't *want* to help. I've found other ways to connect with newer writers in more private forums, where I don't have to expose myself to people who - honestly - don't give a rat's @$$ about my opinion anyway. When the signal to noise ratio gets too loud, it gets hard to hear the important points (and there's a lot of argument around here about what's important anyway, which is something I don't have time for). When you're running a full-time writing career that your family relies on, (not Stephen King level, but mid-list indie making mid six-figures) you start to wonder why you're spending all these lucrative waking hours trying to help people when many of them seem like they don't really want to be helped by those of us who are selling moderately well. You can only bang your head against that wall for so long before you go back to writing another book.


----------



## brendajcarlton (Sep 29, 2012)

I just got tired of hearing about how anyone who has my political beliefs is an ignorant racist hillbilly, and not being able to defend myself because "we don't argue about politics."  Peace. Out.


----------



## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Eye-opening stuff.  Was mostly ignoring this thread before this AM because I figured it was a case of "He's off, busy writing" - pretty much the same reason I've maybe made a handful of replies at most in the past few weeks. I hadn't really noticed all the negativity. 

Regardless, this is still my favorite writing forum to learn, ask, and share.  I've always found much more good than bad here.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Nobody wants anybody in awe. Especially the Joe Nobodys' and the Hugh Howeys. They are all around great guys, great writers, and just wanted to share their experience. They wanted to share the workings of the process, share what did, didn't work, discuss new developments in publishing, how it can help us, to see how we could all benefit. Sharing as writer to writer. However, there seemed to be an element that just can't believe that, and took the sharing as "look at me" bragging.
> But if you'd seen these people from day 1, when they had no idea how successful they would become, sharing from their hearts, you would know it wasn't intended as anything more than sharing from the heart.


Not so much "awe" as *respect*. BUT not just the "indie superstars" but every published author who has started new threads or responded to threads and shared their thoughts. Because they made it!! Doesn't matter if you're not a USA Today bestseller. If you're an indie writer, let's hear what you have to say. Everyone has something to contribute, whether published or unpublished. No one is a "lesser" writer than others (though some might think they are more equal than others... wait, that's Animal Farm -- but yes, some KBoarders are more caustic than others IMHO). Either way, I joined KB because I thought WC is a unique place with so many opinions about the same things!

But I do like to hear what published authors say about the industry, about publishing, about writing, etc. That is why I drove an hour each way (actually hubby drove and I navigated LOL) to hear Michael Connelly talk about his Harry Bosch writing methods, drove another 45 minutes one way to hear Brad Thor talk about how he researched his Scot Harvath novels. That sort of thing. But I don't have to drive anywhere to come to KB. It's a community here, not a one-way street.

And I also agree with the rest of what Lisa said. Want to give and take too, even among newbies. Like Russell Blake posted a few months back -- he was giving back to the KB community, but he got attacked trying to do a good deed. He spent a lot of time responding. I can't imagine how many thousands of words he wrote in response to nitpickers, thousands of words that could have been in his own WIPs. I know bc every word I type on KB is one less word I type in my WIP, but every time I am here I get encouraged, discouraged, encouraged, encouraged. So it's positive overall if I step back and look at it all.

Here's the thing I believe writers need to have: *gratitude*. We all have beginnings. Some of us have come a long way. Some of us are still climbing that hill (hi there!) and getting there. Along the journey we meet people, share thoughts, stop to chat, etc. When we snipe and gripe and slap one another, we stall our own careers. So. Gratitude. Let's have an attitude of gratitude. Peace, people.


----------



## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Bria, I read your post.   I'm sorry KB lost you too.  I used to make sure to go back 3 or 4 pages every day to pick up on the threads that were being ignored so I could bump them up to the top.  Sometimes that's all a good thread needs is more eyes on it.  Depending on the time you post, you could miss a big audience. It sucks when you have something good to share and no one appreciates it.

TwillyJune, I don't recognize your name or your sig line, so I don't know that you've been around during the time I have. That's why I'm not going to let your post offend me too much. But I have to say, it did get my dander up on the first reading.  It felt like you were telling me to "suck it up, buttercup, because you owe us."  Here's the thing ... I'm a human being.  A woman.  A girl.  A mom.  A wife.  A tough-as-nails attorney in another life.  But when it comes to my writing, I'm sensitive. I don't enjoy being attacked.  And as a member of society, I abhor being attacked because people have a problem with my success or my desire to help.  The more success I had selling books, the worse it became here on KB for me.

Until you've been there, as a person coming to a forum to share and help and then having people actively attack you for it or accuse you of having ulterior selfish motives, you can't possibly understand how it feels.  I put up with it for the better part of a year.  A YEAR.  But when it just gets worse and worse, no matter what positive vibes you try to put out there, there comes a point where you must cut your losses and move on - if for no other reason than for self-preservation.  I support my family with my work.  I have to put them first.

Take a look at Hugh Howey's posts.  Every single time he's posted pretty much in the last year, some dumbass has come on the thread and said something nasty.  Here's a guy traveling around the world on book tours, raking in more cash than most of us will see in our lifetimes (writing in a genre that is VERY HARD to get on the bestseller lists with, no less), and he still blogs and shares and visits KB to pat people on the back.  And all he gets is a kick in the ass for it.  Shame on those people who turned on him.  I've got news for anyone who thinks anything bad about Hugh - he hasn't changed.  He's the same generous, funny, warm, humble person he always was.  If you see something bad in him or what he does, then you need to take a closer look in the mirror and see where the real problem lies.  It's not with Hugh.

I want to give a giant virtual hug to all of you indies who've said kind things about me here on this thread and elsewhere.  And to those of you who have PMed or emailed me too.  I really appreciate your support.  Maybe someday when the tone of KB turns around (if it turns around), I'll come back and post again.  I miss talking to you all and reading your wonderful posts and funny comments.  KB can be an awesome place to hang out.

I'm not going to follow this thread anymore.  If anyone wants to contact me, feel free to PM me. Have a good weekend, y'all, and I wish you tons of sales and thousands of happy words flying from your fingertips.


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I would agree some reflection is in order. One thing that would be good to ask yourself (each of us) is, how many times do you ask for help versus how many times do you give it? For me personally, it has felt lately like there are a lot more on here asking, yet when I ask very few give. It makes me less likely to give, too. Yes, one should give help freely without "expecting", but I have to say it gets enlightening when you help and help and then your posts for help get mayby one or two responses.

I have made some good friends here, learned a lot here. I have also been surprised and hurt here. Just like in life. I don't come here as much anymore, simply because of lack of time, and the above. Plus, it seems if you express your opinion and people don't like it, your books become a target. I don't much care for being punished when I say something that doesn't agree with how another sees it, so I just post less. 

Oh, and I agree that new people need to be able to post freely, asking the same questions over and over. As someone else said, that's how we learn. Besides, no one is forcing you to answer every time. It'd be nice if more did help them but we all have time limits, too. So, be nice and help when you can! And don't remind those of us that aren't big sellers that we don't sell that much, so what do we know. Some of us write in genres that are extremely hard to break out in. That doesn't mean we don't know what has to be done to chase success if we've been here awhile. It just means we're still waiting for it. And, no matter how good the books are, some won't ever find it. If you want a sure thing, this isn't it.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Caddy said:


> I would agree some reflection is in order. One thing that would be good to ask yourself (each of us) is, how many times do you ask for help versus how many times do you give it?


I know I'm guilty of this, although I don't ask for help all that often... I usually figure that someone else will eventually ask what I want to know.

I don't respond to many questions, though, just because I don't feel qualified yet. I have two books and four short stories out. Everyone else here seems so much better qualified to pitch in than I am that I stand aside and let more experienced voices answer.

I love to help people, though, so I'll try and do a better job of pitching in wherever I can.


----------



## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

I feel something similar.

I love KB because of all the help I get here. There is always someone to reply to a question and always people to cheer you on when there's good news. But it has always felt rather big and intimidating. Some people get away with being mean and others get slapped for a lot less which has confused me at times. And now it's getting a little chilly...

Although I will always come here and check on threads and ask for advice, I'll retreat to my own little forum for friendly chat and non-judgmental friendship. The pub is growing but it still has a very intimate friendly feel. I hope it will stay that way.

KB is amazing and it's a miracle (and thanks to the mods) that it has kept a civil tone and correct behavior for such a long time.


----------



## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

L.L. Akers said:


> THAT was Joe Biden?! Geesh... What he do, find the secret to age reversal? He doesn't look like an angry old man anymore


That's the picture I had in my mind for the main guy as I read Shift. Lol


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Some posts on this thread seem to suggest that big sellers and experienced writers are only here because they want to help, to give. Is that really true? I mean, sure, the ethos of _giving back_ is real, and essential, and I can see it at work in many people, here. But don't big sellers and experienced writers also _get_ something from KB? Being a writer can be sort of lonely, you know? For example, just speaking for myself, here -- I have friends, a great spouse, two great kids, a good job ... but the writing part of my life, that's something I do alone. No one I know IRL quite understands why I do it. Some of them think it's cool that I do it, but it's still on the mystifying end of the spectrum. But here, people understand. Across genres, different levels of success, different levels of experience and ability, we share this strange activity and the drive to keep doing it. And, riding atop that, we share the experience of doing it the indie way. Being able to connect with others who understand -- that seems valuable to me. If being here feels like all giving and no getting, you shouldn't stay. No one should have to just give and give and never get anything in return. Maybe you put in a year or two and then move on, knowing you've significantly helped others, taken your turn at the wheel, so to speak. But I hope there are enough big sellers and experienced writers who feel they're _getting _enough from KB to stick it out. Otherwise it'll just be some sort of indie farm system where people do their time answering questions and giving advice and then clear out. That would be a huge loss. I think so, anyway.


----------



## L.M. Pfalz (Aug 31, 2012)

It's a shame Amazon doesn't make it mandatory for the customer to be a "verified purchaser" in order to review. Sure, some very determined vindictive people might still one-star you, but at least you'd get a sale and a rank boosting in the process  

I think having to buy something just to diss the author would deter most people though, which would be for the best.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> the writing part of my life, that's something I do alone. No one I know IRL quite understands why I do it. Some of them think it's cool that I do it, but it's still on the mystifying end of the spectrum. But here, people understand.


Becca, this is a big part of the reason I come here. I'm not one of the star of the board, for sure, but no one in my RL (even my supportive spouse) understood why I was pumped when I had a great free run the first time, or got accepted for a Bookbub ad or an ENT BOTD slot. Most everyone here gets why that's cool and is very supportive of milestones large and small. To me, that's one of the really nice things about WC.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

blakebooks said:


> So, let's see a show of hands. Who here, if they're making good money selling books, doing more right than wrong, trying to participate with their peers without censoring themselves, is willing to risk having their rankings negatively affected by participating in frank, open interactions where they pull no punches? Anybody? Who wants to sign up for systematic attacks on their work by those who are jealous, or angry, or frustrated, and who abuse the anonymity of the internet to act out their rage?
> 
> Anybody want to sign up for that?
> 
> ...


I'm almost certain this kind of thing is caused by jealousy of your (or Elle's, or Joe's, or Hugh's) success, not by your frankness. I've been here going on two years and have certainly been frank, ruffled feathers -- even occasionally targeted people I thought were bad for the board. But the 1-star drive-by thing has never happened to me (jinx). My guess: while I might annoy or anger people every now and then, I don't make them jealous.


----------



## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

I've just picked up on this thread--wanted to find out what happened to Joe. But I found out a lot more, and now I am sad. I am one who has learned _so, so_ much from this board and all the writers here; big sellers, mid sellers, and small sellers and even the non-sellers. From the big sellers, I took inspiration and information, from the non-sellers I learned a new respect for the power of hope and determination--and from those in between, I learned I wasn't alone and gained confidence as they shared their personal hits and misses while on this rocky self-publishing road.

I'm appalled that jealousy and maliciousness would cause one writer to slam another publicly in an attempt to demean their work and lessen their income. Appalled, but not surprised. Human nature ceased to surprise me years ago.

I enjoy everyone here (well almost everyone ) and I'd truly miss those sharp, informed voices who have offered so much help to so many of us.

_*Please stay! *_But if you must leave--and it appears some of you have good reason--accept my thanks for your great and informative posts on this crazy business. (Thank God, most of those posts live on in a tidy binder in my office. )


----------



## N. Gemini Sasson (Jul 5, 2010)

L.M. Pfalz said:


> Is it me or do tensions always seem to run high around here at the beginning of a new year? I remember things getting nasty last year too around this time which spurred a megathread about the tone in the Writers' Cafe. I have to wonder if the new year brings about more people who are trying self-publishing, new worries/anxieties from current indies as to what will change for the worse on Amazon and in self-publishing in general, and of course more comments from those who work in traditional publishing because they have their own sets of fear and concerns for their future. I think all these things work together to create a toxic dynamic and environment.


I'd simplify it even more, L.M., and just say that after a long, bitter winter of being cooped up, people in general get edgy.

Whenever I see threads heating up to the point they're getting personal, I stop reading them. There's enough drama in real life - things we can't control - without creating more of it on an internet forum. I admire so many people here. I appreciate those who share their knowledge more than I can ever say. It saddens me to see others get petty.

But this is not exclusive to the world of (indie) publishing. I learned it after 20+ years in the world of purebred dogs. It got to be such a downer that for five years I completely walked away from it. The more successful you were, the more people were likely to do or say something to try to tarnish your image. No matter how much time you invested in giving back to the breed, no matter how much of your knowledge you shared and applied, there was always someone who had something negative to say about it.

It gets tiresome. I get it. And I understand why folk become reluctant to post here, especially if they've felt backlash from it.

But without those people here, the ones that have shared and tried to lift us up as a whole, this place loses so much of its substance.



> I've just picked up on this thread--wanted to find out what happened to Joe. But I found out a lot more, and now I am sad. I am one who has learned so, so much from this board and all the writers here; big sellers, mid sellers, and small sellers and even the non-sellers. From the big sellers, I took inspiration and information, from the non-sellers I learned a new respect for the power of hope and determination--and from those in between, I learned I wasn't alone and gained confidence as they shared their personal hits and misses while on this rocky self-publishing road.


Well said, E.C. Knowledge is power and it comes in all forms.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm almost certain this kind of thing is caused by jealousy of your (or Elle's, or Joe's, or Hugh's) success, not by your frankness. I've been here going on two years and have certainly been frank, ruffled feathers -- even occasionally targeted people I thought were bad for the board. But the 1-star drive-by thing has never happened to me (jinx). My guess: while I might annoy or anger people every now and then, I don't make them jealous.


I suspect you're right. Heaven knows, I've ruffled feathers. There are some people here who simply hate me, but I don't think they at least generally target my books. That comes from a degree of _jealousy_ that those of us in the mid-list status don't receive. (Ok, I think I may have received a _few_ reviews that were spurious citing errors that don't exist, etc but so few that it's not worth worrying about)

Jealousy can be a really nasty thing.


----------



## SLGray (Dec 21, 2013)

The one thing that I've seen a bit of lately (and had directed at me, too) that I think we all could be a little more careful about is this sort of thing:



> From your siggy, looks like you don't have much experience...


The sigs on everyone's accounts are fun to look at and clicking through to books in them can be fun and lead to sales. And who doesn't like to see great covers, even at thumbnail size?

But the number/quality of covers or things in a sig do not necessarily equate to whether a person knows what they're talking about on a specific subject. Or whether they're "worth" listening to. It doesn't tell a complete story.

I'd like to suggest that if something in a post doesn't jive with our understanding and/or opinions, we should feel free to refute or ask questions or outright dispute, but to do so because of the post.

Not because of what's in their signature line.


----------



## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

I've never posted a heck of a lot in the two years I've been here, but I admit that it has diminished a ton lately. I mainly only post replies to threads with no/few other replies, or to answer questions. I will not comment too elaborately on this thread as most of what I have to say has already been covered. I will say that I read pretty much every thread in the Writer's cafe, and that the overall tone has definitely taken a shift. If you were to go back six months from now, well, it is like night and day.

Someone did mention that this happened early last year, also. I seem to recall that as well. Several of the instigators from back then are gone (or maybe the just have new identities here? ). Perhaps the scales will balance then tip in the favor of good again, but I feel as if the more this place is 'discovered', the more it will tip towards the recent negative tones. And I don't see the flow of new people here stopping. This place is always mentioned on 'big name's' blogs. It has to drive a lot of traffic. Heck, when I first came here it was due to an Amanda Hocking blog. I don't mean to say that a nice flow of new members to the forum is bad--forums need this to survive--but it just seem like a large portion lately are not the sort that adds anything to discussions. They seem, at best, skeptical of everything, and at worse vindictive. This has made me stop replying on many substantial topics that I would have gladly participated in a year and a half ago ... six months ago. This is coming from someone who already posted infrequently. I can't imagine how many 'lurkers' these things have turned away. And for every negative new member that sticks around, and every good member who leaves (regardless if it is a 'big name' or an 'unknown' lurker), the scales dip in the wrong direction a bit more.


----------



## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm just going to add a few thoughts to what Russell said and leave it at that.

One, I have also gotten extraordinary one star reviews after posting on certain threads here.  Again, perhaps it is coincidental, but a few too many have bad similar experiences.  Who needs that nonsense?  I've posted because when I started a lot of people put really useful stuff on here, and it seemed like the right thing to do to add to that discussion...but only a fool needs to come back for repeated punishment.  

Two, the type of conversation on here has changed.  I'll be the first one to agree that some of the blog posts referenced here have many annoying aspects regarding legacy issues in publishing.  But many of the posts that have been universally savaged also had good points.  I find it very disturbing to see the cavalier attitude toward readers on display in some of these threads.  There is such arrogance toward anyone who suggests that readers deserve well edited and structured books, it seems pointless to continue discussions.  A year and a half ago, lots of the threads on here were about how to do better, how to demand more of yourself.  Now most of them are just rants because someone dares to say every self-published work isn't a masterpiece.  When you lose the ability to learn and to strive to do better, and you decide instead to wallow in self-congratulation you take a bad turn in my opinion.  I'll particularly point out the Wendig articles.  Do you all really think the guy made no point as all, notwithstanding the fact that you may disagree with some of what he said?

People will disagree, and that's fine, but I could name a dozen people, all selling 100k+ books a year, who rarely post here any more.  The intelligent, insightful commentary that was here is largely gone...and it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone.  In the end, it just hurts the newer authors, who won't get the find of useful, factual help that used to be available here.  But on the bright side, they can rant and insult anyone who doesn't agree with the orthodoxy.  So that's something.


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

You don't have to be a big name to get hit by the drive-by ratings.  You just have to get on someone's radar.

All it takes is a post on some subject you didn't know was controversial. (And the sort of passive aggressive people who do those anonymous hits very often don't speak up on the group, so nobody knows that the subject is controversial.)

I used to get hit at B&N with a batch of anonymous ratings every time I posted something about not sweating the bad reviews or ratings.  ("Oh, yeah? I'll show you what it feels like!")

The fact is, life takes courage and energy.  And you just have to weigh for yourself how much any particular thing is worth the expenditure of courage and energy.  If you get enough out of it, it's worth it.  But if there are diminishing returns... you've got to diminish your expenditures.

But on another topic....

Somebody mentioned something about the threads here becoming repetitive.  IMHO, this is also one of those universal truths, in publishing and on the internet.

Back when I first got bit by the writing bug, I went and read through decades of issues of The Writer and Writer's Digest.  I discovered something: even though those were monthly magazines and didn't really go through that much material in a year, both magazines started repeating themselves after five years.  That's how long it took a monthly magazine to exhaust all the main lessons of writing -- craft, business, everything.

I mean, sure there are a lot of elements that go out of date quickly, especially on the business end, but if you look at it on a really grand scale, you realize that even that has a certain repetitive cycle to it.  That basic knowledge certainly evolves, but once you know it, you pick up on the evolutionary parts of it really quickly and don't need the whole lesson again and again.

And it's not just writing magazines.  I noticed this with computing user groups and forums of every sort.  There's a certain basic understanding that you need, and that gets repeated for the new users again and again, and most users drift in, learn what they can and drift out. A few "oldbies" stick around and mentor the newbies.

This group is actually pretty good at maintaining a secondary level of usefulness.  You do get people who move beyond that basic knowledge and start talking about nuance and getting to a deeper understanding of the basics -- but because we will always have a lot of newbies who still need the basics, such conversations often get bogged down.

IMHO, it behooves everybody to drift away and hang out in a different group for a whlle (or to belong to multiple groups) because even if each group is offering similar knowledge, they all have different points of view, and you can start building that deeper more nuanced understanding quicker.

I went away from this group.  I came back.  I recommend it.  It will refresh you, and it will change the dynamics of the group just enough to keep the group fresh.

Camille


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> I can offer some further insight. Last week, when we were having our lively discussion on craft and prose, I received two one star reviews on one of my flagship books (that had, up until that point, six one star reviews out of over 200), and one by the one of the same people (an author, it turns out - surprise) on the prequel, also a one star.
> 
> Now, while it's entirely possible that after two years and tens of thousands of sales, the book in question suddenly spontaneously generated two one star reviews within 48 hours of each other, citing how boring it was and how terrible the prose was. "Trite, over done (sic) prose." At the exact moment when we were discussing our preferences for one sort of prose versus another.
> 
> ...


Truth. And it makes me very sad to say that. Unfortunately, even us little guys see the kickback. It's quite disheartening. 
I miss reading posts from my favs, but I get it.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

daringnovelist said:


> You don't have to be a big name to get hit by the drive-by ratings. You just have to get on someone's radar.


I agree. I was picked on before, and I'm a no-namer yet-to-publish nobody. Asking too many newbie questions could get you slapped around. All is forgiven, but I'm more reticent now.



blakebooks said:


> But, it seemed more than coincidental that I got these reviews while participating in a KB thread discussing the merits of more elaborate prose. Way. Too. Coincidental.


I'm shocked to read that.

I'm shocked that writers (a noble profession) would resort to this type of blowback (unprofessional).

I am in other, albeit smaller and quieter, writer's discussion groups besides WC, and as far as I know, civil writers don't take it out on other writers by sabotaging their reviews. That's disrespect. The principles of sowing/reaping and do-unto-others and boomerang and all that.


----------



## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

This thread is terrible for many reasons:

       WC is a place where people come and go, I get that. But if this thread is being discussed widely, it sends a red flag warning to successful writers, a beware sign, an enter at your own risk, a post-here-and-you'll-regret-it banner. So the chances of new, experienced voices lessens.

       And the existing great members may now have to second guess their posts. They may pause before hitting the post button, considering the consequences and maybe decide to not post it at all. 

       Worse than that, I'm hearing goodbyes from people I don't want to say goodbye to.


Being here with fellow writes, I sort of felt like I was at Jay Z's party. I'm a nobody but I got to hang with the people I admired (small time and big time sellers). The conversation flowed from those who knew the system and we appreciated them passing the knowledge down. But then a few people crashed the party, starting drinking all the Cristal, getting loud and rude. They pushed Beyoncé around, spouted hate at Will-I-am and called Prince Harry a ginger. All the while, the silent cronies that came with them took unflattering/awkward pictures and before you know it Miley's lost her Pepsi contract and Flo's getting calls from a PR team for behavior breach's and they all wonder why they came in the first place.   


Nothing is broken, it's merely waiting to be fixed.

I'm a problem solver. It's what I mostly do for a living. I don't want to derail the thread with my ideas but I think there are ways to fix this. But maybe time is the biggest fixer.


----------



## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> But, it seemed more than coincidental that I got these reviews while participating in a KB thread discussing the merits of more elaborate prose. Way. Too. Coincidental.
> 
> This has happened before. I just shrug it off. Usually. But I look at this, and it appears to be a pattern: post something that conflicts with someone's beliefs, expect to get some drive-by negative reviews as your reward.
> 
> This is reality. I've seen it. I know Elle has. I know Joe has. There are plenty of sh#tgrubs out there whose ethics would make a Mumbai prostitute shudder with revulsion. And they clearly frequent these boards, and when a name appears and says something that differs from their view, whatever it is, they lash out in a cowardly, childish manner.


It's funny... last week (or thereabouts) I commented on a thread concerning whether or not you (indie author collective "you") edit / revise your book(s) after they're published if your skills increase, and whether that's a good idea -- if it concerns wanting to have the best book(s) you possibly can. I said something to the effect that I worry all the time about the quality or lack thereof in my writing, that I've revised my books more times than I can count, and that I have re-published in the interests of wanting better written books.

I also mentioned that I have never had a reader complaining about my writing skills... just the violence.

That very same day, I got my first low-star review that complained about my writing skills.

I just thought it was ironic and kind of funny, and laughed it off. Now I'm wondering if it wasn't as coincidental as I thought.

Thing is, though, I can't fathom anyone being jealous of me. I'm not at all successful. The only potential jealousy-inducing thing I've done is managed to get approved by BookBub (which I've also posted about here... but no one responded, so I figured no one actually saw the post. LOL)

I just can't fathom the mentality behind drive-by reviews. The reviewer is not gaining anything by them (at least, I don't *think* they are... is there some benefit to doing this that I'm not aware of?).

*shrug* Well, them's the breaks. But it's awful when people get vicious and nasty in the drive-bys. Mine (if that's what it was) seems pretty tame... it just says I'm a poor, predictable, crude writer.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bria Quinlan said:


> I wasn't going to post. I really wasn't. And not just because of this thread, but because last week I quit KB. But, this thread is being talked about off-board in about a bazillion places.
> 
> So, here goes....
> 
> ...


Bria I noticed you are here less, too. I miss you. I may have missed your post, because I'm going days now where I don't check the WC.



blakebooks said:


> I can offer some further insight. Last week, when we were having our lively discussion on craft and prose, I received two one star reviews on one of my flagship books (that had, up until that point, six one star reviews out of over 200), and one by the one of the same people (an author, it turns out - surprise) on the prequel, also a one star.
> 
> Now, while it's entirely possible that after two years and tens of thousands of sales, the book in question suddenly spontaneously generated two one star reviews within 48 hours of each other, citing how boring it was and how terrible the prose was. "Trite, over done (sic) prose." At the exact moment when we were discussing our preferences for one sort of prose versus another.
> 
> ...


Russell - I love your posts and am always dismayed when I see how you, and Elle, and others, are attacked. That's the problem some in here don't realize is the attacks don't just "stay" here in the Cafe, but come in the form of one stars, false reviews, etc.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2014)

Matt Ryan said:


> WC is a place where people come and go, I get that. But if this thread is being discussed widely, it sends a red flag warning to successful writers, a beware sign, an enter at your own risk, a post-here-and-you'll-regret-it banner. So the chances of new, experienced voices lessens.


Maybe there's a good reason for that. Maybe the warning is valid.

It's not just the unsuccessful nobodies who can be petty. There are a handful of big names on these boards who seem to single me out and ridicule me for selling fewer books than them whenever I voice an opinion that dissents from the general wisdom. That has always boggled me. In some of the recent KKR discoverability threads, I saw some very successful authors attack her on that basis, drawing broad sweeping conclusions about her income on the fact that she offers workshops and has a paypal donations button at the end of every blog post. That was just head shaking.

In the past month, I've been evaluating my own participation on these forums and whether I want to scale back or leave altogether. Looking at some of my one-stars, there are a couple nonsensical ones that now seem suspiciously like drive-bys. I don't want to invite any more of those.


----------



## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

This entire thread has made me very sad.

I can't read it anymore.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

LBrent said:


> This entire thread has made me very sad.
> 
> I can't read it anymore.


Don't worry. It's going to be okay!


----------



## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Joe Vasicek said:


> There are a handful of big names on these boards who seem to single me out and ridicule me for selling fewer books than them whenever I voice an opinion that dissents from the general wisdom.


I agree. In the short-ish time that I've been here, I've twice seen you unjustifiably attacked by prominent authors. (I admit that I happened to notice, on each occasion, mostly because I agreed with your perspective, but that isn't really relevant).

Nobody should imagine that the bad behavior, whatever its motivation, is all from "the less successful" and aimed at "the more successful". It just isn't.



Joe Vasicek said:


> In some of the recent KKR discoverability threads, I saw some very successful authors attack her on that basis, drawing broad sweeping conclusions about her income on the fact that she offers workshops and has a paypal donations button at the end of every blog post. That was just head shaking.


I agree. Well, "head shaking" is actually being polite: it was rather worse than that, I thought.



Joe Vasicek said:


> In the past month, I've been evaluating my own participation on these forums and whether I want to scale back or leave altogether. Looking at some of my one-stars, there are a couple nonsensical ones that now seem suspiciously like drive-bys. I don't want to invite any more of those.


I hear you. It's sad that it's so, but I hear you.


----------



## Joe_Nobody (Oct 23, 2012)

First of all, let me say I'm sincerely touched by many of the posts in this threat. I also laughed - you guys are a creative bunch, for sure.

I preach to my teenagers about the internet: Be careful. There are predators out there. There are people who will take whatever presence you present and twist it in cruel, unjustified ways. The net is forever. It is a digital playground full of insecure bully-people who are allowed to act without fear of retribution or punishment. They can hide behind a cloak of invisibility and do great harm. There is no cause and effect.

Yet, despite knowing all of this, what did I go and do? I got comfortable&#8230; complacent. I didn't practice what I preached, and that was stupid. In my past, such ignorance equaled death. I know better.

You see, most of you folks on this board are like a comfy old pair of boots. The mods do such a great job keeping the overt nasty's suppressed that I let me guard down. When I posted, I had visions of friends and co-workers - others who shared a similar life-style and aspirations. We may disagree, squabble and even snark-a-little, but we are like family in so many ways. I don't always agree with my kin, and this place was no different. That was a stupid perspective on my part.

Here, as with any public facing website, there are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of eyes watching every word we post. Our on-the-surface private conversations can then be taken, manipulated, selectively quoted and stuffed into whatever context the "listener's" desire. This isn't my estimate - I can prove it from just two weeks ago. It's up in black and white on the web for all to see. You've read dozens of posts on this site talking about the coincidence of attacks after posting here (or elsewhere). This wasn't a coincidence - the proof that others are deliberately trying to harm me is no longer speculation. All based on a post in this forum. None of it would have happened if I wasn't here.

Because of my affection for all of you&#8230; because I love to help others, I lost sight of that mentality. And that was stupid on my part. I was honest, open and exposing with my "family." Again, dumb-dumb-dumb.

So now I find myself in a dilemma. I'm terribly busy right now, but even when I do have a second to log in a read/post/contribute/learn, I don't. I feel as though I would have to carefully phrase each statement, watch each word and tread very lightly. Not only does that take time, it restrains what I can contribute. Most importantly, it wouldn't be any fun. Instead, I wander off to a non-writing distraction elsewhere.

There have been many who have speculated over the "big sellers" leaving the WC and to the reasons why. I can't speak for others, but I will clarify one very specific point that troubles me:

Before I started selling reasonably well, an attack hurt my *potential*. Now, it takes money out of my pocket. There is a huge difference. Remember "one in the hand," versus "two in the bush?" I can predict that once any of you have made it to the next level, that _one_ in your grasp feels pretty darn good.
You'll fight like a cornered wildcat to keep it. When someone attacks you, its more than just an insult - it is the same as me walking into your home and stealing your possessions. Think about that for a moment&#8230; there's no difference.

Now I'm sure someone out there will post about this. They'll say I'm greedy... that money is my only motivator. They will judge me despite never having walked a mile in my shoes. Forget honor, reputation and professionalism. Ignore the countless hours of labor and toil - Joe's just a greedy bastard. Shrug. But that brings us back to the point - why would anybody sign up for that? I both lean and love to help others here, but is it worth it? That's my dilemma, and I'm sure I'm not alone.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Joe_Nobody said:


> First of all, let me say I'm sincerely touched by many of the posts in this threat. I also laughed - you guys are a creative bunch, for sure.
> 
> I preach to my teenagers about the internet: Be careful. There are predators out there. There are people who will take whatever presence you present and twist it in cruel, unjustified ways. The net is forever. It is a digital playground full of insecure bully-people who are allowed to act without fear of retribution or punishment. They can hide behind a cloak of invisibility and do great harm. There is no cause and effect.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of us who know that you have a heart of gold and have shared selflessly to help your fellow writers. I hope you know how much you inspire. 
It breaks my heart to see what has been going on here. I'm just...wrecked right now. I had no idea.


----------



## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

It's nice to see you around again, Joe, but I wouldn't blame you if you left and never looked back. I enjoy talking to you and learning from you, but if being here is damaging to your career? It's just not worth it. You don't owe anyone anything.

I hope you stick around but will completely understand if you don't.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2014)

Thanks for the post, Joe. I understand why you'd feel that it's time to scale back, and I'm sorry for the drama and pettiness that you've had to put up with. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

This all makes me so sad. I've known industries where the uber-successful are putzes. WC has shown me that it's not usually the case with writers. I've learned so much from the people that are more successful writers than I am - Elle, Dalya, Joe, Hugh, Russell, Texas Girl and dozens more - and they've all done it in  a kind, caring, straight-forward way.

If you're leaving, I don't blame you, but the WC will be much diminished by your absence. I am grateful for all the help I've already received.

So... Thank you.


----------



## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

A (possible) solution would be to create a new, second and anonymous membership. And pop up with this on and off after a while, after the culprits lost the track... If(!) people, who decided to quit, still want to participate on the board for some discussion without having to fear trolls who endanger earnings and reputation.


----------



## Quinn Richardson (Apr 20, 2012)

There's a cold, analyzing part of me that wonders how much of the chaos inflicted on this happy, successful, complacent group of independent publishers might have been brought on by those whose livelihood is grounded in the continued domination of traditional publishing.

Conspiracy theory, for sure.  But a theory nonetheless.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Thank you, Joe, Russell and Elle for dropping in. I feel like I'm at a friggin' funeral. I'm walking away from this thread now... I don't want ya'll to see my big monkey tears. I just want to also say thank you, for all the help, encouragement and nudges you gave back to this board--to all of us--I've certainly sponged up every word you wrote. I'll still be seeing all of you, because I have your books. But it won't be the same. Years from now, we'll all be saying, "Remember when so-and-so was a regular at KBoards... ?"


----------



## L.M. Pfalz (Aug 31, 2012)

Joe, I've always enjoyed your posts here and it saddens me that you've now been put into this position, but you've gotta do what's necessary to protect yourself and your business, I totally get that. Maybe after taking a breather, you can regroup and come back after some time has passed. I appreciate all the advice you've given here, and I have great respect for you. I wish you all the best, no matter what you decide.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

Joe, I'm really sorry that you, Elle, and many others have to experience this.  I've been here long enough to see people come and go, and it's always a shame when a notable board personality goes, or fades away.  That said, I completely understand your reasons, and I'd probably do the same in your shoes (and come back in disguise, as CeeDee suggested!    )

I wish you all the very best wherever your path takes you.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Before I started selling reasonably well, an attack hurt my *potential*. Now, it takes money out of my pocket. There is a huge difference. Remember "one in the hand," versus "two in the bush?" I can predict that once any of you have made it to the next level, that _one_ in your grasp feels pretty darn good.
> You'll fight like a cornered wildcat to keep it. When someone attacks you, its more than just an insult - it is the same as me walking into your home and stealing your possessions. Think about that for a moment&#8230; there's no difference.


I hesitate to comment because I don't think those of us who aren't making significant income from our writing can really understand this feeling. I know I'd be miserable if what happened to you happened to me, but it wouldn't put my family's financial stability at risk. That's a whole different thing.

Anyone who says these concerns show you only care about money is an idiot. I am sure about that. We should *all* be aware that careers in the arts (film, writing, painting, whatever) are unstable. You can be doing great one day, and then, a few years later, no one remembers who you are. When that happens, the actor/writer/painter/whomever probably looks back and thinks, "Ah, yes, it was ______ event that started the downward slide," but at the time, it wasn't apparent. So when you're doing well, you look at every event and think, "Is this the one??"

Maybe. I don't know. I'm imagining myself into that position. Maybe I have it wrong. But if not, a worry like that is not at all the same thing as only caring about money. It's different in magnitude and in kind.

But the stuff that made you feel KB was friends, coworkers, family, comfy old boots -- that's still here. We're still here. In your position, I *think* I'd think that was a lot to give up. I'm not sure. I think so, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm glad to see that Joe and Elle (and quite a few others) have checked in. I'd noticed a shift in the conversations here lately, but I'd already been trying to spend less time here because I don't have the time to lurk here all day and actually write books, too.

Another reason was this phenomenon:


daringnovelist said:


> Somebody mentioned something about the threads here becoming repetitive. IMHO, this is also one of those universal truths, in publishing and on the internet.
> 
> Back when I first got bit by the writing bug, I went and read through decades of issues of The Writer and Writer's Digest. I discovered something: even though those were monthly magazines and didn't really go through that much material in a year, both magazines started repeating themselves after five years. That's how long it took a monthly magazine to exhaust all the main lessons of writing -- craft, business, everything.
> 
> ...


I came here from AW, and valued the different perspective and the focus on marketing and the publishing side of the business, which I hadn't seen elsewhere. I'm starting to feel like I've cycled through the basics here, and need to shift focus, but I keep coming back because I enjoy the sense of community and the sometimes-heated discussions. I don't know if I'll take a break from this forum or not, but if I do I'll hope to see some familiar faces when I get back.


----------



## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

To Joe and the others considering leaving, first of all, thank you for all of your generous contributions.  It's you and others like you who have shown me the way to becoming an independent writer.  I hope you decide stay, but if you don't, I certainly understand.  It's sad to think that a few with black hearts are causing such damage.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

So glad to see Joe Nobody alive and well. You're the man!

I had my 10-minute limit to live up to so I stopped posting to KB for a stretch back in January. Thus I had no idea all that aforementioned dirty laundry was flying around. I only found out something happened when I saw this thread, and after that, someone sent me a link to a hot button thread. And now I see the full picture.

Sad lessons I'm learning from this thread:
- When you start doing well as an indie, be careful what you say to anybody. There will be backlash and blowback.
- Vindictive people may post 1-star reviews to get back at you. You won't know who hit you or why.
- Try to say only fluffy, meaningless, popcorn gobbledegook that cannot be misquoted or taken out of context.

Happy lessons I'm learning from this thread:
- Don't worry. It's going to be OK. Life goes on.
- Don't let the turkeys get you down.
- Keep on keeping on. Speak your mind. Don't back down.

The question is: Which path do we take? I'm going with the Happy Lessons.

If we don't, then the likes of Don Maass indie naysayers win. I wonder if they're looking at this in-fighting with amusement that the Freight Class is having a first class cow. Implosion? Mission accomplished, eh?


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Heh. I've missed the last six pages of this thread because of a side project. Skipped to page 8. Something tells me not to go back and check out what I've missed.

I've been posting less and starting less threads not because I worry about my career or my earnings, but because for the 9 people who appreciate my involvement, there's a quiet 1 who loathes me. (I might have those numbers inverted, but you get the point).

Three incidences within a few days of each other last month drove this home, even though I've seen little examples over the years. Which is to be expected. Don't get me wrong, I have sung this place's praise for being an unusual pocket of civility in an internet that doesn't begrudge the stuff. So two things have made me more of a reader and less of a poster:

1. I hate to think I'm pissing people off with my presence, whatever the ratio.
2. Any decrease of enjoyment in a thing these days is liable to have it dropped from my routine, as my days are begging for open hours.

I do agree with the poster who pointed out that we don't notice the mid-listers who are going missing. Such is the annoyance of our focus on outliers. Speaking of which, I better get back to that project, which wraps up a quest that began here a little over a year ago.


----------



## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> 2. Any decrease of enjoyment in a thing these days is liable to have it dropped from my routine, as my days are begging for open hours.


This is true. I dropped by WC to take a break from my WIPs. If the coffee is always bitter, the cafe is no fun to be in anymore.

Let's be civil. We can be civil. We're all professional (or want to be) writers, right?


----------



## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> Heh. I've missed the last six pages of this thread because of a side project. Skipped to page 8. Something tells me not to go back and check out what I've missed.
> 
> I've been posting less and starting less threads not because I worry about my career or my earnings, but because for the 9 people who appreciate my involvement, there's a quiet 1 who loathes me. (I might have those numbers inverted, but you get the point).
> 
> ...


How could anyone loathe you, Hugh? Your'e the kindest, most generous person here. I so admire the way you never changed, despite your great success.

It's a delight to see an Indie author do so well, yet never lose the pride in being Indie. You could have left us all behind, floated above us and given us a little indulgent wave now and then from the heights of trad publishing. But you didn't. You stayed with us and kept your Indie status as a badge of honor.

You're an inspiration. You make me proud to be an Indie.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

The upshot of this nine-page thread is that people say and do mean things on the internet. No argument from me there. While I’m a little surprised that people are surprised by this (what Blake said should be obvious), I do sympathize with the people who’ve received one-star reviews as retaliation for what they’ve said here. That’s just petty. 

At the same time, I don’t see what some of you expect the rest of us to do about it. Even if the mods became “gatekeepers of positivity,” deleting anything short of gushing praise, it wouldn’t stop people from crapping on your books at Amazon. Worse, it would probably cause a lot of people to avoid KB because it’s just one big love-in.

I hesitate to add this, but it looks to me like lot of indies got (and continue to get) exposure from participating here. So the calculus is simple: if the effect of the bad reviews is greater than the sales from exposure, you’re probably better off not posting. Sad for all, perhaps, but a reality all the same. 

ETA. Good to see Joe back. I find him somehow soothing. Not the praise he was looking for, probably, but that's my praise. 

ETA2. People notice the one's who've left, but what about the one's who've come back? Kevis, anyone? What about the new people? Are they all just bad? I think not.


----------



## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

WHDean said:


> At the same time, I don't see what some of you expect the rest of us to do about it. Even if the mods became "gatekeepers of positivity," deleting anything short of gushing praise, it wouldn't stop people from crapping on your books at Amazon. Worse, it would probably cause a lot of people to avoid KB because it's just one big love-in.


I don't think they're asking us to do anything about it. I think they're only explaining why they're spending less time here.

Could be wrong, though. *shrug*


----------



## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> First of all, let me say I'm sincerely touched by many of the posts in this threat. I also laughed - you guys are a creative bunch, for sure.
> 
> I preach to my teenagers about the internet: Be careful. There are predators out there. There are people who will take whatever presence you present and twist it in cruel, unjustified ways. The net is forever. It is a digital playground full of insecure bully-people who are allowed to act without fear of retribution or punishment. They can hide behind a cloak of invisibility and do great harm. There is no cause and effect.
> 
> Yet, despite knowing all of this, what did I go and do? I got comfortable&#8230; complacent. I didn't practice what I preached, and that was stupid. In my past, such ignorance equaled death. I know better.


I know this feeling far too well. It's happened to me before on another forum, and I'm not going to lie, it really hurt. It was really upsetting and, I might be a bit of a wimpy girl, but I actually wanted to cry.

I've learned so much from posters like Elle, Russell, Joe, Hugh and Holly. If it hadn't been for Kboards, I never would have published a single word.

Hopefully things will die down and we can get that community spirit back. I'm going to keep hanging around. But I must admit, some of the more aggressive threads have put me off attempting to debate certain subjects.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

What Susanne said.


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> To Joe and the others considering leaving, first of all, thank you for all of your generous contributions. It's you and others like you who have shown me the way to becoming an independent writer. I hope you decide stay, but if you don't, I certainly understand. It's sad to think that a few with black hearts are causing such damage.


Ditto.

I also agree that many, many mid-listers, and those who weren't quite that have also left. I've noticed this for a couple of months now. A lot of the people I learned from are simply gone. There are also a couple of really big sellers that haven't been mentioned that have chosen to leave because of the negativity they felt they saw on here.

I miss the people I got to know on here that have left. Some I do talk to. Others I hadn't taken the step to get to know them outside of here. Definitely my loss. They were people who gave generously and were funny. And, some I do private message. They check for those, but don't post because of various reasons mentioned in this thread. 

Here's another example: I host a quarterly writers' group in my home. It was started by inviting people from here. We now have 19 members. How many would you guess still post here? Any guesses? You're looking at her. They grew tired of negativity, of readers threatening to "tell people not to read them" if they spoke their mind, of being ignored because they weren't part of a clique. Some said if they did post their comments were virtually ignored. So why stay?

(Don't shoot the messinger. I'm simply telling you what has been said. I'm still here because quite a few are friendly to me. I hope this place becomes fun and helpful again, and I'll work at trying to help it be so-at least as time will allow. But I will say I've had all I'll take of threats and retaliation when I speak my mind, too. And I'm nobody! If I can't be honest here I'd rather leave. I'm not in high school anymore and haven't been for some time, so petty retaliation is something I can quite do without.  )


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Joe Nobody,

I'm saddened by the KB writer who attacked you on his blog. Totally uncalled for, but at least we have a name now. And I'm still learning from you, from this experience, bitter lesson that it is.

I'm sorry so many of my friends are leaving or have decided to be quiet. From private conversations, I knew it was happening but seeing you all posting about your reasons here makes me even sadder.

We keep in touch through other ways but it's not the same as here at our Cafe.

Thank you to all who have shared their knowledge with me: Hugh, Joe, Elle, Liliana, Robert, Dalya, TG, Russell and so many more. Goodbye for now over here.


----------



## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> for the 9 people who appreciate my involvement, there's a quiet 1 who loathes me


I think that ratio's way off. Bet it's more like 50:1 or 100:1. Those are good odds, no?

You can't win 'em all, but you've won over many by your extraordinary humility in the face of success.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> First of all, let me say I'm sincerely touched by many of the posts in this threat. I also laughed - you guys are a creative bunch, for sure.
> 
> I preach to my teenagers about the internet: Be careful. There are predators out there. There are people who will take whatever presence you present and twist it in cruel, unjustified ways. The net is forever. It is a digital playground full of insecure bully-people who are allowed to act without fear of retribution or punishment. They can hide behind a cloak of invisibility and do great harm. There is no cause and effect.
> 
> ...


Darn it, Joe, you have been a valuable poster on this site, so your leaving is very much too bad. It is very easy for for someone else to critidise, but you have to do what you feel is right for your own success. Anyone who argues with that is just being selfish themselves.

There are nasty people out there and some strange ones. I'll tell you a funny thing. There is someone, almost certainly from this board, who goes through and marks down every single 5-star review my novels receive. It is too consistently done to be coincidence. Why? It doesn't hurt me although there are a few reviewers it might hurt if they want a high ranking as a reviewer. The nasties exist.

Anyway, you'll be missed even though most of us completely understand why you put your own career first. You'd be insane to do otherwise and that you are not.


----------



## kwest (Mar 16, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> Heh. I've missed the last six pages of this thread because of a side project. Skipped to page 8. Something tells me not to go back and check out what I've missed.
> 
> I've been posting less and starting less threads not because I worry about my career or my earnings, but because for the 9 people who appreciate my involvement, there's a quiet 1 who loathes me. (I might have those numbers inverted, but you get the point).
> 
> ...





Susanne OLeary said:


> How could anyone loathe you, Hugh? Your'e the kindest, most generous person here. I so admire the way you never changed, despite your great success.
> 
> It's a delight to see an Indie author do so well, yet never lose the pride in being Indie. You could have left us all behind, floated above us and given us a little indulgent wave now and then from the heights of trad publishing. But you didn't. You stayed with us and kept your Indie status as a badge of honor.
> 
> You're an inspiration. You make me proud to be an Indie.


Totally agreed. It's so inspiring to see such a good person doing well in science fiction. And you've been doing great at smashing people's perceptions that self-pubbing is a bad thing. I'm keeping up with Mr. Howey's blog so that I don't get withdrawals.


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Hey all. A friend alerted me to this thread, so I popped in to clear the air. I see a lot of conjecturing that's way off base, so let me set the record straight.
> 
> 1. I am not too busy to post on KB.
> 2. I have not abandoned my fellow writers because I hit it big.
> ...


So I guess I live under a rock, because all of this was news to me and had me gaping at my computer screen. I only tend to pay attention to threads that grab my attention by their title, and somehow I missed all of this stuff when it happened.

_Wow_, is all I can say.

No wonder Elle, Joe, and others have left altogether or taken long breaks. Frankly, that looks like the sensible thing to do for anybody who wants to protect his or her current or potential future career. This stuff ranges from petty to psycho. Who wants to be around that? Debates and the occasional argument are one thing, but retaliatory behavior is another.

Grow up, whoever participated in this b.s.


----------



## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

This thread is very sad, indeed. 

Overall, I think the members of Kboards are generous people, who honestly want to help other authors. I hope things calm down and are able to become what they were. WC hasn't been the same recently, but I do hope it returns. I definitely appreciate the time the successful indies have taken from their busy schedules to share their advice. It's disheartening that the acts of some have caused them to leave. I understand why they leave, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

I also appreciate (most) everyone else. Everyone has something to offer the board. I've learned a lot from WC, from people at all levels of their writing careers. 

I hope those with ulterior motives choose to move on. Leave the generous, kind-hearted authors alone. If you have an issue with them, take it to them personally and privately, like an adult. If not, watch out for karma. You know what they say about her.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Susanne OLeary said:


> How could anyone loathe you, Hugh? Your'e the kindest, most generous person here. I so admire the way you never changed, despite your great success.
> 
> It's a delight to see an Indie author do so well, yet never lose the pride in being Indie. You could have left us all behind, floated above us and given us a little indulgent wave now and then from the heights of trad publishing. But you didn't. You stayed with us and kept your Indie status as a badge of honor.
> 
> You're an inspiration. You make me proud to be an Indie.


Yes. You are my role model, Hugh. Really. Truly. I would think the ratio must be more like 99 to 1. If people are taking shots at you, that makes me sad.

Ditto for Joe Nobody. I think I'm a little bit in love with Joe Nobody.


----------



## TexasGirl (Dec 21, 2011)

I was sent to this thread too.

I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


Things we do that we later think we could have done differently-- those things are not crimes or sins. Those things are NORMAL. The person who's never posted anything they've regretted--well, that person hasn't posted much.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


Don't feel bad, although I understand and would probably fee exactly the way you do. No one thread can take a board down or even change it significantly. I think that thread simply brought to a head an issue that had been lingering under the surface. When it bubbled up, I think we were all surprised at how tense things got as a result. A result of underlying issues not any one thread or any one poster. And there are obviously other issues that have been festering. And although it's cold comfort, people have been run off this board by one-star attacks and aggressive emails for years. It's nothing new.

Deanna, you've been a kind a generous poster since I can remember. I hope you know I know that, that most of us, whatever side of any of these issues we may be on, feels that way about you, too.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


I personally don't think you did a thing wrong. I'm not anybody, I barely sell a book, but I didn't hesitate to help you try to reach your goal, just because you asked... And because I thought it was great that you asked. Isn't that why we're here? To help each other? I've certainly taken more than my share of help, so a simple tweet or FB share seemed a small price to pay. If people didn't want to, they didn't have to. I'm sure your post came in the middle if a perfect storm of events that led to this, so please don't shoulder the blame; that's too big a burden for only one person.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Monique said:


> Don't feel bad, although I understand and would probably fee exactly the way you do. No one thread can take a board down or even change it significantly. I think that thread simply brought to a head an issue that had been lingering under the surface. When it bubbled up, I think we were all surprised at how tense things got as a result. A result of underlying issues not any one thread or any one poster. And there are obviously other issues that have been festering. And although it's cold comfort, people have been run off this board by one-star attacks and aggressive emails for years. It's nothing new.
> 
> Deanna, you've been a kind a generous poster since I can remember. I hope you know I know that, that most of us, whatever side of any of these issues we may be on, feels that way about you, too.


Oops. Yours posted while I was typing. Weird. That's basically what I said


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

TexasGirl said:


> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


If I had been in your position, closing in on a goal like that, I can easily see myself making the same post you did, so I didn't blame you for it then, and I don't now.

I am all for equality in all things, but IRL, I am more likely to help out a friend that has shown an ability and willingness to be there and help me in the past. You'v shown that tendency over and over in your many helpful posts.


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


First, it's never one thing or one person or one incident. These things build up.
Second, the very excellent mods looked at your post and objectively agreed that it was appropriate and helpful offer. 
I understand how you feel, but I hope you realize you did NOTHING wrong.


----------



## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

LBrent said:


> This entire thread has made me very sad.
> 
> I can't read it anymore.





JanThompson said:


> Don't worry. It's going to be okay!


No. It's not.

The bullies have made sure of that.

Elle was one of the first people I spoke to here.

Joe has always been kind and helpful.

Russell is...well, Russell. Lol. But he never pulled any punches. He gave generously.

There are many more here who have helped me shape a game plan and I'm beyond grateful. To have them attacked just guts me.

Marla recently mentioned not wanting to annoy/offend folks by posting earnings and how her family was concerned about her sharing.

Picking on Hugh, really? That's like kicking a puppy.

I gotta go. This is making me cry.

Dammit, the numptydoinks win yet again.


----------



## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

LBrent said:


> No. It's not.
> 
> The bullies have made sure of that.
> 
> ...


THIS. Especially re: the numptydoinks.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> Don't feel bad, although I understand and would probably fee exactly the way you do. No one thread can take a board down or even change it significantly. I think that thread simply brought to a head an issue that had been lingering under the surface. When it bubbled up, I think we were all surprised at how tense things got as a result. A result of underlying issues not any one thread or any one poster. And there are obviously other issues that have been festering. And although it's cold comfort, people have been run off this board by one-star attacks and aggressive emails for years. It's nothing new.
> 
> Deanna, you've been a kind a generous poster since I can remember. I hope you know I know that, that most of us, whatever side of any of these issues we may be on, feels that way about you, too.


Exactly this. Deanna, I have always enjoyed your posts on this board. Please don't think you were the cause of the drama.

And what Monique said about one-star attacks and aggressive emails, that is true. I still remember when Modwitch stepped back. And although I have no idea what the details were, I do remember her saying something about being attacked privately. That was a sad day for me. She was always so incredibly helpful.


----------



## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


TG, there have been PLENTY of posts in the WC just like yours was from plenty of different authors. As well as threads asking for a vote for their book in a contest or award or list or whatever. I see zero harm in that. The reader chooses what they will do. How you got dragged into this mess I don't know. Now those requests are relegated to one thread which I will never see. Progress?

Whatever happened to Dalya/MiMi/Prawny I don't know since I don't spend that much time on here anymore for many reasons. One though is because over that past year or maybe two KB tends to become a meaner street. More snark, more bite, and more pit bull arguments and more invading know it all's from the warrior clans. Used to get a little snarky here before, but now the jealousies and meanness is just meaner.

Who wants to spend their time in a place like that?

Elle, Joe, Hugh, Russell, SM Riene, RJ Crane and many others have been like a breath of fresh air giving their best advice and methods they have used. Each could easily put together a book about it and sell it for $4.99. Instead they have given it away for free on KB, only to find out how much some jealous writers resent them and are jealous and they have to watch their backs here.

It's a sad day in Whoville when the Grinch's rule the town.

edit: Those 1 star drive-byes been happening since I first joined.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Monique said:


> Don't feel bad, although I understand and would probably fee exactly the way you do. No one thread can take a board down or even change it significantly. I think that thread simply brought to a head an issue that had been lingering under the surface. When it bubbled up, I think we were all surprised at how tense things got as a result. A result of underlying issues, not any one thread or any one poster. And there are obviously other issues that have been festering. And although it's cold comfort, people have been run off this board by one-star attacks and aggressive emails for years. It's nothing new.
> 
> Deanna, you've been a kind and generous poster since I can remember. I hope you know I know that, that most of us, whatever side of any of these issues we may be on, feel that way about you, too.


What Monique said, Texas Girl. Yep.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> Exactly this. Deanna, I have always enjoyed your posts on this board. Please don't think you were the cause of the drama.
> 
> And what Monique said about one-star attacks and aggressive emails, that is true. I still remember when Modwitch stepped back. And although I have no idea what the details were, I do remember her saying something about being attacked privately. That was a sad day for me. She was always so incredibly helpful.


Modwitch leaving was a real shame. She offered some solid criticism of an idea I once floated. It made perfect sense and she was matter of fact about it. She was also level-headed and she rarely said anything overly controversial. Someone must've been jealous.


----------



## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Hugh Howey said:


> Heh. I've missed the last six pages of this thread because of a side project. Skipped to page 8. Something tells me not to go back and check out what I've missed.
> 
> I've been posting less and starting less threads not because I worry about my career or my earnings, but because for the 9 people who appreciate my involvement, there's a quiet 1 who loathes me. (I might have those numbers inverted, but you get the point).
> 
> ...


Personally, _my_ burning question is, do the great book-seller spirits still accept us invoking your name for sales purposes??

[[not taking chances.... Hugh Howey. Hugh Howey. Hugh Howey. ]]


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Jena H said:


> Personally, _my_ burning question is, do the great book-seller spirits still accept us invoking your name for sales purposes??
> 
> [[not taking chances.... Hugh Howey. Hugh Howey. Hugh Howey. ]]


This gave me the first smile of the night. I remember that great thread among friends having some fun with Hugh's name. And abs.

Hugh Howey, Hugh Howey, Hugh Howey .


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Who is this Joe person you all speak so highly of? And why havent I heard of him.

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

von19 said:


> Who is this Joe person you all speak so highly of? And why havent I heard of him.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


He is a Nobody that writes prepper fiction and non-fiction.
His books are available at Amazon. Just type in Joe Nobody.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Joe_Nobody said:


> Now I'm sure someone out there will post about this. They'll say I'm greedy... that money is my only motivator. They will judge me despite never having walked a mile in my shoes. Forget honor, reputation and professionalism. Ignore the countless hours of labor and toil - Joe's just a greedy bastard. Shrug. But that brings us back to the point - why would anybody sign up for that? I both lean and love to help others here, but is it worth it? That's my dilemma, and I'm sure I'm not alone.


I'm in it for the money. I don't give a shit if I help anybody or not. So, if someone posts stuff like that about me, I'll be posting in the comments, "Yeah, and??" 

Though, I gotta confess that this thread makes me lean toward just not announcing on here when I publish, because I'm pretty sure I piss some people off.


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> He is a Nobody that writes prepper fiction and non-fiction.
> His books are available at Amazon. Just type in Joe Nobody.


Thankies Cin 

Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk


----------



## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't see how you could p anyone off, Fred. You are kick butt funny and I love your posts.

I came here a couple of years ago and soon started to become fond of so many people here. I don't have much of a life other than working with animals and doing a little writing, so this place has become my home and my family.

I've got to go find something else to do to distract myself...I'm really depressed over this tonight.


----------



## chrisanthropic (May 28, 2011)

I've been following the thread all day and I have to say, I nearly started a thread earlier in the week regarding the recent negativity around here.  I tend to lurk but have found that recently the level of instructive or helpful threads has been replaced with negativity or downright attacks, which is sad to see.  

That being said, vrabinec, publish already because you're funny as ****.


----------



## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

SM Reine said:


> KB definitely feels more "public" than it used to (although obviously nothing has changed in the privacy settings). I used to have a lot more fun snarking around with people on here because the community felt very intimate. I enjoyed lots of good natured arguments and shenanigans. These days, I try to keep my mischief gland under wraps pretty tightly so that I don't say things that will come back and bite me in my well-deserving, luscious, shapely hindquarters. I'm pretty bad at controlling myself and still jam my foot into my mouth whenever presented the opportunity, but I'm getting better. Slowly.
> 
> I have most of my industry discussions in smaller communities with trusted writer-friends now. Places I feel safer being a snarky jerk.  I still rely on KB to let me know when some talking head has made an incendiary blog post that we need to rabble about. RABBLE RABBLE.


SM, of the many people who have come and gone, I miss you most of all. Clever wit, keen insights, or great advice--your posts were always worth reading. I wish you'd stop and visit more often.

Fred, I FORBID you to ever publish if the end result is that you'll leave us.

This thread is, indeed, discouraging. Years ago, someone that I know who is semi-famous in a different profession told me "as soon as you get some recognition, the critics come out of the woodwork." This has been happening since the beginning of time. It just wasn't this easy prior to the internet. Our famous friends will have to protect what's theirs. Plain and simple. But it does bring a tear to my eye.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, y'all...

We've been watching this discussion--and felt it was something for y'all to discuss amongst yourselves, but I think I need to say a couple of things. They may come out kind of random, bear with me.



TexasGirl said:


> I was sent to this thread too.
> 
> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


I said this in the thread where we asked how people wanted to handle "Help me reach a milestone" posts and I'll say it again here:

We did not ask the question because of your thread, TexasGirl. Your thread was fine. We would not ask for feedback on a major change in how posts are handled based on one thread. We were getting repeated complaints over time about a number of threads that a number of different members considered promotional.

Just because A happened right before B does NOT mean A caused B.

(I've seen this before, in the "tone" thread last spring that many, many people attributed to something that was not the reason for the thread. And I said so, many, many times in that thread, though it never seemed to take hold. And so I have little hope that it will here, but if no one else believes me, TG, you should. I think I'm the only one posting in this thread so far that was privy to the discussion in Admin.)

As for the reason for this thread...every time KB loses a member I take it personally, as a bad review. I've had two requests in two days for accounts to be deleted. This is painful to me. You have no idea.

People also get to different points in their lives and move on. It has happened in the Kindle side of the forum as well as here in the WC. I miss those people, but it's inevitable.

I hate that some people are feeling driven away. We work pretty hard to keep things on an even keel here, and I actually thought things were pretty good in the fall. I do think this is still the best forum on the 'Net and that it's because of the people here. But the forum is continuously growing and I think that every now and then we have growing pains, and that we're having one right now.

I haven't posted in this thread before because I think this kind of discussion is actually healthy and needed to be between the members of the Writers' Café. Friends need to be able to say what's bothering them. But I wanted to clarify the issue with TexasGirl and I wanted y'all to know we are reading and hearing your comments.

Best,

Betsy


----------



## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> We work pretty hard to keep things on an even keel here, and I actually thought things were pretty good in the fall. I do think this is still the best forum on the 'Net and that it's because of the people here. But the forum is continuously growing and I think that every now and then we have growing pains, and that we're having one right now.


I was really impressed with how things have grown and developed when I came back here last year. And I do think some of the positives and negatives depend on what threads you are reading at any particular time.

I was surprised by some of the things I read on this thread, but I soon realized it was because I had not been reading the threads people were talking about.

Camille


----------



## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

TexasGirl said:


> I know I screwed up. Didn't _think_ before I posted. I feel like my action caused a huge mess. I didn't know how to fix it. Still don't. So it seemed stepping back was the thing to do.


I don't think you did a single thing wrong, and I've always appreciated your excellent and generous posts.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I admit I have said some things in the past some people took the wrong way. It is *never* my intention to hurt feelings. I also admit to starting a response to a thread, realize I'll get another one star review, and back out. Some days, I just don't have the guts to deal with it, even though I am successful enough now, that they can't really hurt me. The can hurt my feelings, and sometimes those need protecting too.

Yet, I have a little insight that might help others understand when it happens to them (and it will happen). Picture a woman who was badly hurt in an automobile accident, is on disability and can't afford to buy books. She relies on the free books, and since she truly has no life - she has joined a "club" that hates Indies. It's all she's got and every time she nails one of us, she brags about it to her club members. It is anger that drives her, anger at me, at you, and at a cruel world that took her legs away.

So, all we can do is take those lumps, pity the ones who give them to us, and move on.

By the way, I got upset and decided not to post my sales here, because...well you already know why. So don't tell anyone I've sold over 87,000 books in 3 1/2 years, ok? Shhhhh. It's a secret. 100,000 here I come!


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

That's awesome, Martita!


----------



## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

> I can offer some further insight. Last week, when we were having our lively discussion on craft and prose, I received two one star reviews on one of my flagship books (that had, up until that point, six one star reviews out of over 200), and one by the one of the same people (an author, it turns out - surprise) on the prequel, also a one star.
> 
> Now, while it's entirely possible that after two years and tens of thousands of sales, the book in question suddenly spontaneously generated two one star reviews within 48 hours of each other, citing how boring it was and how terrible the prose was. "Trite, over done (sic) prose." At the exact moment when we were discussing our preferences for one sort of prose versus another.
> 
> ...


Russell Blake, is the thread in question the one re your post (within a thread about low sales) on romance writing? I wont link to it if you had issues because of it.

I'm really sorry if you received 1 and 2 stars because of it, esp. if one was an author themselves. In that thread, myself, Valerie80, SM Reine, Patty Jansen, Harriet Schultz, Pamela Kelley, Rosalind James, C.C.Kelly were all having a say on your posts - and I'd believe that none of us would be involved with that, so I'm assuming you're referring to lurkers.

I definitely agree low star attacks are an issue. I had no less than 8 of those over a 2 day-period late last year after posting something here that people either agreed or disagreed with in a very passionate way - all on the same book. Amazon removed 2 but the others remain. It's absolutely a very low act, and I believe that people who do so won't get very far in this business - as spite is unproductive. 
I have an author in the same genre as me (YA Horror) and in the same top 100 rank as me who has demolished almost every book in my series, and I do wonder at the motivation for that. And yep, sure as eggs, there's some other such reviews from authors (none from this board by the way!).

TG, glad you're here posting again


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Yay, Martita! You go, girl!


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

A.A said:


> Russell Blake, is the thread in question the one re your post (within a thread about low sales) on romance writing? I wont link to it if you had issues because of it.
> 
> I'm really sorry if you received 1 and 2 stars because of it, esp. if one was an author themselves. In that thread, myself, Valerie80, SM Reine, Patty Jansen, Harriet Schultz, Pamela Kelley, Rosalind James, C.C.Kelly were all having a say on your posts - and I'd believe that none of us would be involved with that, so I'm assuming you're referring to lurkers.
> 
> ...


Wasn't me either, Russell.
When you annoy me, I'll just tell you.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Martitalbott said:


> By the way, I got upset and decided not to post my sales here, because...well you already know why. So don't tell anyone I've sold over 87,000 books in 3 1/2 years, ok? Shhhhh. It's a secret. 100,000 here I come!


That's fantastic, Marti. Congratulations.


----------



## Book Master (May 3, 2013)

There is so much that could be written on this thread about things that do happen. It could quite actually be a huge book. I've been into this for years, yes, writing fiction too!(Just not under BM) I could tell a ton from the past but why bring it back?  Those old wounds healed. 

It is good to hear about someone having success but it makes some people jealous with envy for some reason. Another thing is opening yourself up to those that will eat your heart out. You shouldn't post your success in numbers on a public forum because anyone can see it whether they are a member or not.Posting, "I sold 40,000 books in a month," is one thing but posting the numbers with the dollars by months and dates is like opening your bank book to strangers! I have been through some of the bad things that happen to some in here but as stated, those wounds are healed.

How did I deal with it? I recovered and that is all that is needed to be stated. As for posting numbers and sales of Titles, the best advice is to refrain from it. You wouldn't post your banking information online which is really similar to posting sales, numbers and so on. Think about that.

I remember when I started out. Lost, completely lost, no clue in hades as to what to do. Did I run over here? Afraid not! Frankly, I never knew WC or KB existed! It is the truth! One of the first things that I did was spend money buying books on what I needed to help me learn the ropes. It took awhile to read, study and learn a lttle of a huge field that I'm positive not one soul knows everything about. I also did a ton of legwork out there too. I wasn't lazy. I worked and worked hard at it. I started making many sales. One of the first Fiction books I wrote under another name sold thousands before being attacked by two torpedo reviews. (Was this review helpful?) YES! Readers started clicking that and it got so bad, I pulled the book off the market. The sales came to a complete halt on that book. A possible best seller "dead in the water," sunken by torpedo reviews.

I still have that book file on my desktop over there in the corner. Sometime, when I find time to rework Title , another name and change the story some, I'll toss it back out on the storefront. It was fustrating not to know why someone would do it. Really, I don't think anyone has an answer to that question. Zon wouldn't remove the reviews so I removed the book.

As I stated, it is bad business to post anything dealing with potential money on the net. Those haters will come after you. You can also offer advice on here  but what might work for one may not work for another. Its different strokes for different folks and always will be that way because no two people are alike. That is where you will find disagreements and friction. Certainly not in a business standpoint either. A good piece of advice too is to forget about yesterday and move on towards tomorrow. Jiust like this I keep seeing on WC lately.............."I don't know what is going on over here, lately, everyone is leaving or WC isn't like it use to be."

It IS the same place people. There are just certain rules in business that you have to follow. Time to move on and let things return to normal.


BM


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KarenLK said:


> Just read this whole thread.
> 
> I recently posted here about receiving 1-star reviews after a promo... and within a minute of me posting on the Kboards, each of these 1-star reviews was voted "helpful" on Amazon several more times. No joke. Instant negative karma. It happened so fast. I refreshed the Kboards, I refreshed Amazon, and there were suddenly more upvotes on the 1-star reviews. Maybe I'm paranoid, but it felt like bullying on top of ugly reviews.
> 
> ...


I see even more folks sympathetically down-voted them. When that happens, it looks like an author asked a bunch of buddies to gang up on the reviewers. This sort of thing happens with every bad-review thread: people of the suck-it-up mentality punish the author by up-voting and people who want to help get in there and down-vote, which is counterproductive. It's really unfortunate. I know it's nannystateish, but having seen this pattern play out over and over, I'm coming around to the position that threads about negative reviews should be banned. Sometimes they seem productive -- the author feels reassured or comforted. But Karen's experience seems much, much more typical.

Anyway, I'm very sorry to hear this happened, Karen. Your book and reviews overall still look terrific. Such a gorgeous cover.


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Joe, I really appreciate your post -- and just wanted to add that I, too, appreciate all of the contributions you make. You are a positive force in this community and someone I really respect. You are logical without being unfeeling, and you do things your own way without belittling others who do things differently. You are generous with your time and opinions and numbers, and yet you ask very little in return.

I am more sorry than I can express to see some of these old hats go, big sellers or not. (Catie, that includes you!) I agree that it is up to those who remain to be aware of tone, and to keep this place a valuable and friendly place to be. There will always be nasty people who downvote and drive-by, or who ridicule the authors on this board to drum up attention for their own blogs or books. Our job is to make sure that the good outweighs the bad. Not always an easy task on the Internet, but there it is. 

For now, I will focus on being as helpful as I can, saying thank you often, avoiding the negative, combative threads, and giving my time and attention to the kinds of threads that made this place what it is.


----------



## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I see even more folks sympathetically down-voted them. When that happens, it looks like an author asked a bunch of buddies to gang up on the reviewers. This sort of thing happens with every bad-review thread: people of the suck-it-up mentality punish the author by up-voting and people who want to help get in there and down-vote, which is counterproductive. It's really unfortunate. I know it's nannystateish, but having seen this pattern play out over and over, I'm coming around to the position that threads about negative reviews should be banned. Sometimes they seem productive -- the author feels reassured or comforted. But Karen's experience seems much, much more typical.
> 
> Anyway, I'm very sorry to hear this happened, Karen. Your book and reviews overall still look terrific. Such a gorgeous cover.


Agree with this 100%. I understand that the mods have decided to continue to allow these threads, because people have said that new authors need to hear the standard responses: that it's not a good idea to complain about 1-stars, that everyone gets them, it's par for the course, etc etc.

BUT, it really seems to me that these threads cause so many issues for those involved that the bad always outweighs the good. Reviewers and other readers feel attacked, ganged up on, and disrespected; the authors receive more 1-stars, find their negative reviews upvoted/positive reviews downvoted, and land on lists of blacklisted "authors who complain about reviews." And overall, these threads foster an atmosphere of antagonism between readers and authors -- NOT the kind of atmosphere that KB, which is a forum for readers and authors, is benefiting much from.

At this point, a ban on these types of threads + a sticky post would be useful, detailing why review-complaint threads are no longer allowed (specifically, the problems they cause, here and elsewhere, for readers and authors) -- along with the friendly, helpful note that poor/nonsensical reviews are a natural part of this career path. They sting, but they happen.

I know that having to police for review-complaint threads creates more work for Ann and Betsy, but I'm sure WC-ers will glad to help by clicking that "report" button! 

/derail!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

KarenLK said:


> Just read this whole thread.
> 
> I recently posted here about receiving 1-star reviews after a promo... and within a minute of me posting on the Kboards, each of these 1-star reviews was voted "helpful" on Amazon several more times. No joke. Instant negative karma. It happened so fast. I refreshed the Kboards, I refreshed Amazon, and there were suddenly more upvotes on the 1-star reviews. Maybe I'm paranoid, but it felt like bullying on top of ugly reviews.
> 
> ...


Hi Karen, sorry to hear your news. It is NEVER a good idea to talk about bad reviews here or anywhere. NEVER reply to reviews, DO NOT comment on reviews at Amazon. It never ends well. I never review anything anymore because of blowback. You should consider this also.

Kboards is a great place for readers and writers. NEVER forget there are thousands of readers eyes reading what you say HERE on the boards. Do not write review threads here.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Thursday I plan on bringing my class on Story by, it’s a virtual field trip. I did this last quarter and my class loved it. Every quarter I sing KBoards praises as a place for support, information, and vigorous discussion about the industry. I talk about Hugh, Elle, Bella, Mimi/Dalya, Russell, Joe, all of you really, and your stories and how magnificently generous you’ve all been. 

While we are lamenting the loss (or the lowered participation) of members because of sniping, abrasive discussions, personal attacks, issues of jealousy, we must remember this thread. 

Have you counted the pages? Have you read the responses? Have you noticed the pattern? 

We are not here for only ourselves. We are a community who support each other. Who reach out and encourage and share. We are KBoards. Despite the lamenting, or maybe because of it, this is quite possibly the most hopeful thread I have read in the history of this board. 

On Thursday morning I’ll be bringing the class by to show them how wonderful you are.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

bmcox said:


> Thursday I plan on bringing my class on Story by, it's a virtual field trip. I did this last quarter and my class loved it. Every quarter I sing KBoards praises as a place for support, information, and vigorous discussion about the industry. I talk about Hugh, Elle, Bella, Mimi/Dalya, Russell, Joe, all of you really, and your stories and how magnificently generous you've all been.
> 
> While we are lamenting the loss (or the lowered participation) of members because of sniping, abrasive discussions, personal attacks, issues of jealousy, we must remember this thread.
> 
> ...


Harvey, please add enormous like button to forum software.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KarenLK said:


> And I'm not sure I know what the Kboards are anymore. If they aren't a place where authors or readers feel safe to talk about things and find help, then what's the point...?
> 
> Karen


Many of us do feel reasonably safe, I think. But clearly many don't feel safe and, in fact, suffer repercussions for participating.

If you check KB's membership rolls, you'll find close to 2500 pages, each listing 30 members. I assume the majority are inactive, but that's still an awful lot of people. In a sample that big, there are going to be some assholes -- nature of the species. Plus, the forum is publicly accessible and indexed rapidly by Google. Anyone can read it, and searches do bring people here. Like Joe said so eloquently, it feels like a private, intimate space, but it's not. We don't know who's reading what we write. Most of what we write here persists permanently. And we're all writing about stuff where feelings can run high.

So, yeah. I do feel I can talk about things, here, and I've gotten a ton of help. But some conversations carry risk, and it can be especially hard for newcomers to predict which ones.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

markecooper said:


> NEVER forget there are thousands of readers eyes reading what you say HERE on the boards.


Except Jeanne's posts. She can close her eyes and make herself invisible. (It's just a trick, though. Her posts aren't really invisible, she just uses a form of invisible internet ink.)


----------



## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

My thoughts are with Joe, Elle, Hugh and the others whose fairytale coach, in which you all tried to carry so many along with you, turned so painfully back into a pumpkin.

Sympathies too with Harvey and his co-workers who must have wept reading this thread. The bad guys are sinking their business as well. 

As we used to say back in the 'sixties . . . love and peace.

Joe


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's the thing.  Kboards is completely public.  The Writer's Cafe is just one small section -- albeit a very active section -- of Kboards which is a very large board.  

IT IS COMPLETELY PUBLIC.

AND . . . it's big.  It is KNOWN.  So, yes, things posted here get seen by not just the few hundred who post regularly, not just the 60,000+ who are members, but by anyone who happens by. You don't have to be a member to read EVERY POST of EVERY THREAD. And I've no doubt there are  -- unpleasant -- individuals who browse here for the purposes of just being mean.  If they register and post we get rid of them.  But if they don't . . .    Point is: this is NOT a private place.  It may feel, often, comfortable and friendly, but it is NOT PRIVATE.

So, if you post complaints, even mild ones, and even if every single response posted is supportive and helpful -- we can't do anything about the thousands of people who might read it and take it the wrong way or just be mean about it.  We can delete posts that are against our guidelines for courteous posting, but we have no control over anything else that person might decide to do.  

Frankly, most of the time when a thread of that sort is started, someone, not necessarily Betsy or I, will immediately comment that it's not a good idea.  But newish members will still start such threads.  If they're reported, we can certainly lock them pretty quick.  But our policy is not to simply delete threads, especially if there's been good discussion.  We may revisit that policy -- but that would open up a whole 'nother can of worms.  We will also discuss extending our 'don't post reviews' rule to 'don't discuss reviews'.  

So, yes, PLEASE REPORT when you know it's a topic that can be a problem.  Betsy and I do not have time to read every post of every thread -- I'm sure none of you do either -- and we rely on reports from members to alert us to where there are problems.  If people don't report it when a topic comes up that we all know is likely to flare, we may not see it until it's too late.  

I'd also like to note that, one time I posted a reminder of this sort and several people said, in effect, "but we don't want to be tattle tales".  Or, the usual, "I figured someone else would."  If any of you have refrained from reporting on the basis of either of those concepts, I urge you to reconsider.  NO ONE but we mods will ever know who reported what, and, frankly, it's not worth the effort to try to keep track. Also, there are threads that have exploded and I'm sure it's because no one reported them early enough on the theory that, surely someone else has done so.  We don't want to lock threads.  We prefer to keep discussion going.  But if it gets too bad, the only way to fix things is to shut it down.

The only thing I would urge is, if you are inclined to report a post that's, for example, on the 2nd page of a 4 page thread, please read the whole thread first -- it might be that the issue has been dealt with and that there's already been a comment/warning posted by a mod in the thread.


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

^^ I take your point Ann, and Betsy too.  There is an absurdity at the root of this thread though. Just at a time when Mr Nobody decided to lie low he has been put firmly in the spotlight. 

There are far too many threads started on this board about other members.  Well intended as many are, they each and every one carry the risk of said member being targeted and /or drawn in to a discussion that they did not seek. 

I say let individual members speak for themselves. If they wish to highlight an issue or a blog post/interview of interest, let them do it off their own back. We are wise enough to see the difference between blatant self-promotion and adding to debate. 

My apologies to the OP for bringing this subject up, I share the OP's admiration of Mr Nobody and will/would regret any reduction of participation. However it doesn't get away from the fact, he has been forced front and centre against his wishes. 

So, I say starting threads about other members should be banned.


----------



## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

DianaGabriel said:


> Agree with this 100%. I understand that the mods have decided to continue to allow these threads, because people have said that new authors need to hear the standard responses: that it's not a good idea to complain about 1-stars, that everyone gets them, it's par for the course, etc etc.
> 
> BUT, it really seems to me that these threads cause so many issues for those involved that the bad always outweighs the good. Reviewers and other readers feel attacked, ganged up on, and disrespected; the authors receive more 1-stars, find their negative reviews upvoted/positive reviews downvoted, and land on lists of blacklisted "authors who complain about reviews." And overall, these threads foster an atmosphere of antagonism between readers and authors -- NOT the kind of atmosphere that KB, which is a forum for readers and authors, is benefiting much from.
> 
> ...


I agree, especially with the bolded part. I think we tend to forget that while there are umpteen thousands members here, only a small part of them are writers. Many, many readers lurk (and sometimes post!) on the WC. Not to mention all the other people with access to the Internet that find us by whatever means.

My thinking is that is where a lot of the down-voting and low-star reviews come from, especially when someone has posted a 1-star vent/rant, and not nearly as much from fellow authors, for whatever reason that's postulated.

Am I right, or wrong? Who really knows? I know as a reader I wouldn't take very kindly to an author who calls someone a troll for leaving a bad review. And it's happened on these boards -- and every other writer's forum I've seen -- over and over again. People always respond to ignore it, grow a thick skin, oh-you-poor-baby, and so on. And within a short time, we have someone else posting a similar thread, and getting the same responses.

Being a new person to forums is no excuse. Nothing stops anyone from lurking for a while, and reading at least a few pages of posts. If you stick around a message board for even a few hours, you will get the tone of the members, and learn what topics have been done to death, or shouldn't be brought up again.

It's been almost exactly three years since I found these forums. I've seen the tone change, members come and go, the tone change back (or come close). As I posted before, it's up to us to set the standards here (in addition to Harvey and the Mods Squad). We can be forthright and hold an opinion, without being nasty about it. We can respond to those we don't agree with without snark and downright horrid behavior.

Every board is going to have growing pains, lose members, gain new ones. Sometimes the focus changes, personalities don't mesh, or whatever. It will either work itself out (with help from the members and the moderators), or it won't.

I personally hope the WC can swing back towards the informative, helpful place it was when I first found it. I'm going to make a big note to put on my computer to remind myself to report things that I feel aren't right, relevant or helpful.


----------



## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

DianaGabriel said:


> At this point, a ban on these types of threads + a sticky post would be useful, detailing why review-complaint threads are no longer allowed (specifically, the problems they cause, here and elsewhere, for readers and authors) -- along with the friendly, helpful note that poor/nonsensical reviews are a natural part of this career path. They sting, but they happen.


I'm absolutely, 100% against this culture of trying to forbid this and that and yet another thing. It NEVER works.

<snark>Let's not post threads about writing anymore. Kittens, puppies, rainbows, peace and harmony are still allowed.</snark>

On the other hand&#8230;
This is a writing board. Writing can be a highly emotional subject. So can religion and politics. There's something to be said to keep those separated. The board has to remain functioning in a useful way.

So, _very reluctantly_, I would agree with such a move like you propose.
I would add a list of volunteers to which the new writer in need of some emotional support can send a PM. You can put me on it.


----------



## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

Book Master said:


> You shouldn't post your success in numbers on a public forum because anyone can see it whether they are a member or not.
> BM


Yep, I know, but I'm just rebellious enough to spit in their eye. Backing off and hiding just let's them win and encourages them to hit the new authors the way we were hit. I don't read bad reviews if I can help it and I haven't cared about up and down votes in years. That's just a silly game they play.

Our focus needs to remain on telling a good story and writing a blurb that is so compelling, readers won't care about the reviews.

Do readers read all the reviews? Nope, not in my case anyway, or I wouldn't be making the kind of money I'm making. If you look at the reviews for the first book in my Highlander Series, you'll see what I mean. It's permafree and nearly 200k readers have downloaded it despite the bad reviews. I know, it's because it's free, but that' doesn't mean people are not selective enough to pass over a book with a bad blurb.

Marti --- Talbott


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks . . . I've split off the discussion on Andrew's excellent idea. . . .that thread about vonlunteer mentors for new members may be found here:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,178119.msg2511119.html#msg2511119


----------



## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Ann in Arlington said:


> And I've no doubt there are -- unpleasant -- individuals who browse here for the purposes of just being mean.


This was my thought. I'm sure some of this activity is coming from a certain number of members of the community who feel like it's okay to do passive-aggressive things to other community members, but I suspect much more of it is a few people who enjoy poking sticks at self-published authors. I have my thoughts about where they may be coming from.



Andrew Ashling said:


> I'm absolutely, 100% against this culture of trying to forbid this and that and yet another thing. It NEVER works.


I agree.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

KarenLK said:


> Thanks, Becca.
> 
> And before anyone assumes I don't already know this, I understand that authors shouldn't comment on or complain about negative reviews. I had thought my original thread made it very clear that I wasn't doing either, but was merely asking if others had noticed an increase in negative reviews after running a promo. I hadn't thought of it as a potential con from a promo, and wanted to gather some statistics from other authors. Apparently the Kboards aren't a safe place to do that.
> 
> ...


Karen, I didn't think there was anything wrong with your post. I thought in that case, you were asking a legitimate question, and I responded to it, because it was something I had experienced and thought through for myself in the past. I thought it was a useful thread and am sorry that you had fallout from it. But, yeah, lesson learned here, too.


----------



## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I think on review threads, the OP should watch their words.  Do not be insulting or even say what you think about the reviewer unless you know the reviewer personally.  
When you say one reviewer is nonsensicle or is childish or has no clue, that says more about you than it does the reviewer.  Keep in mind you are the one doing the name calling now.
I know reviews are important so write the best book you can and act like a professional.
I know marketing is hard without them.


----------



## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

I've been feeling very _blah_ and very _meh_ about KBoards these past few days.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

there's a lot of food for thought in this thread, and a lot of good advice.  Perhaps it is time to move on and apply some of the good advice to posts and to ponder the food for thought...  I'd like to see us take this information and move on to improve things here.  The admin staff is having discussions based on many of the points made here.

Post positively.  Help people.  Ask and answer meaningful questions.  Be a force for good in the community.  *add cliche of your choice.*

Betsy


----------



## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Nathalie Aynié said:


> I've been feeling very _blah_ and very _meh_ about KBoards these past few days.


What you need is a good eyeball licking.

Well, or this:


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2014)

Marti Talbott -

Amen


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Monique said:


> I was a proponent of equality. I'm still stunned that's controversial. But if the board doesn't want that I'm happy to leave. Maybe it's for the best. This place leaves me scratching my head or looking for the scotch far too often these days.
> 
> Once the rabble rousers like me who think equality is something to strive for leave, you can have all the "stars" here you want.


You're not a rabble rouser. You have a good head on your shoulders, and that shines through. I think we all need to do our best to weather this storm. It will pass.
It would make me very, very sad to see my friends go.


----------



## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Quiss said:


> What you need is a good eyeball licking.
> 
> Well, or this:


I approve!


----------



## Jay Allan (Aug 20, 2012)

I really wasn't going to post again, but good sense has left me for a minute, so I'm just going to make one point and be done with it.  But first, I want to clearly and emphatically state that whatever issues may be a factor here, it is not the moderation.  This site probably has the most reliable and even handed moderation I've seen on a message board.  But moderators can only go so far before they become censors, and that is worse than the disease...and that leaves the mods at a dead end not of their own making.

I think a lot of people are missing a point on here.  At least to me they are...I can't speak for anyone else.  The conversations on here (beyond normal social/benchmark stuff) used to be focused on how authors could make themselves better.  I find that is largely not true anymore.  I feel that more and more threads are just becoming giant, "agree with our party line and we'll go stone the heretic" things.  I particularly felt the Wendig threads were revolting.  I don't agree with everything he said, but I don't feel there was anything deliberately offensive or provocative in, and certainly nothing that warranted page after page of pile on with hardly a fact or counterpoint in evidence.  I didn't see much in the way of facts presented in any of that...just snark after snark.  Now, I don't think that the indie publishing community is going to be remotely able to police itself, so there is a pointlessness to what Wendig said, imo.  But where does this outrage and ridicule come from?  It's pointless and counterproductive.

Now, that's fine if that is what you want to spend your time doing.  I wouldn't be surprised if the board gets more traffic from this sort of thing than it ever did before.  I'm a free speech guy, so if that is what people want to do on the Internet, I say have a blast.  It's just not for me.  I have neither the inclination nor the time to waste.

My philosophy is readers first.  Customers first.  And I think that is best served by constant efforts to improve, by reading points of view on how to improve both your writing and your career.  Shouting things down is not conducive to this result...and, to me, it is disrespectful to readers.  Not to mention an interesting way for people to behave when they feel they've been under the industry's boot for so long.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Jay Allan said:


> I really wasn't going to post again, but good sense has left me for a minute, so I'm just going to make one point and be done with it. But first, I want to clearly and emphatically state that whatever issues may be a factor here, it is not the moderation. This site probably has the most reliable and even handed moderation I've seen on a message board. But moderators can only go so far before they become censors, and that is worse than the disease...and that leaves the mods at a dead end not of their own making.
> 
> I think a lot of people are missing a point on here. At least to me they are...I can't speak for anyone else. The conversations on here (beyond normal social/benchmark stuff) used to be focused on how authors could make themselves better. I find that is largely not true anymore. I feel that more and more threads are just becoming giant, "agree with our party line and we'll go stone the heretic" things. I particularly felt the Wendig threads were revolting. I don't agree with everything he said, but I don't feel there was anything deliberately offensive or provocative in, and certainly nothing that warranted page after page of pile on with hardly a fact or counterpoint in evidence. I didn't see much in the way of facts presented in any of that...just snark after snark. Now, I don't think that the indie publishing community is going to be remotely able to police itself, so there is a pointlessness to what Wendig said, imo. But where does this outrage and ridicule come from? It's pointless and counterproductive.
> 
> ...


JRT says: Blankety Blank Blank Blank... anyone who knows her can guess the opinion she has censored at Betsy's request. 



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Let's chill. This thread may have jumped the shark at this point.
> 
> Betsy
> KB Moderator


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Let's chill.  This thread may have jumped the shark at this point.

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Betsy: as the OP, may I request that you lock the thread? I got my answer, and we've had an interesting and productive conversation because of it. I think the thread has served its purpose, and I don't think anything more useful can be said.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

aka Let's get this off the front page before it creeps out the newbies.

Crap, did I just bump it? I did, didn't I?


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

beccaprice said:


> Betsy: as the OP, may I request that you lock the thread? I got my answer, and we've had an interesting and productive conversation because of it. I think the thread has served its purpose, and I don't think anything more useful can be said.


I agree, Becca, just coming to do that. Move on; folks.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 using Tapatalk 4


----------

