# Hugh Howey Asked in 2012 - And in 2015 I want to know...



## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

How many of those that responded to his thread are still here writing and STILL making money (maybe $500+ to keep with his original idea?) You don't have to reveal any numbers if you don't want to of course, but I think it would be helpful to those of us just getting started. I've seen several names in his thread from 2012 that are still posting here today! Which is exciting... anyway this is the thread I'm referencing:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,134236.25.html

Oh and anyone new can feel free to share as well, it doesn't have to only be those from 2012. This is just for motivational purposes. 

Thanks!


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I'm still here and still writing but not making $500 a month yet. My publishing has been slow and I have done no promoting beyond a few tweets and a small Facebook presence. Advertising in the near future is a goal of mine as I continue to write and publish at a snail's pace. There's the plain facts with no sugar-coating.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I think many of us here are still publishing and making money. I do well with churches carrying and selling my paperbacks. Also, I'm breaking into the school systems where a few (I think this will increase when I publish the last of my angel series) have put my books on their summer reading lists. I make more than the 500+ a month, firmly in the low five figure range yearly, but I could see with three finished series, and the proper marketing how I coud break six figures.

I see my YA sales growing again, but it might take finishing the three series I'm working on to really get things moving.  I started publishing ebooks in May 2011, and I've had my ups and downs. Getting the Angel Series books 1, 2, & 3 optioned and re-optioned for a movie has been an *up*. The project is still on, which is cool. 

Mainly my publishing so slow is what's holding me back as I get reader emails almost daily asking for more. If I buckled down, I could see myself doing very well. Christian publishing (outside pastors and motivational speakers with huge platforms to sell to) is a fairly small world. Romance is what sells the best in the Christian fiction arena and I can't see myself writing much romance genre. I prefer to write what I would like to read, which leans toward YA with supernatural elements, and my action adventure real-life history mysteries. 

BTW, Hugh is single now (my heart goes out to him and Amber, who are both terrific human beings) and getting ready to sail around the world solo.  You can follow his journey on his blog:  The Wayfinder  www.hughhowey.com


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm still writing and publishing, and making a fair bit more than $500 a month.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

I was the first to respond in that thread.  Since then, I've quit my day job and I'm writing full time.


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I actually answered under another pen name with that thread. I now have 3 pen names, including this one, which is making the most money out of all three. I've moved from that prawnie cup of coffee earnings a day to the bronze 1-10 sales a day between all three names. I'm finding that if you think out of the box, you can make it. Not the biggest income jump I'd like to have, but at least it's improvement to not give up, and keep writing. 

My whole goal has changed since that thread started. I've had health issues that are making me try the writing dream full time for a year. So, it really is a long haul test. You can make money, but whether you can make a full living really depends on you, what you're writing, and not giving up. 

I have to admit when I saw all those people making decent money in 2012, it gave me hope to keep going. Ordinarily, giving up is what most people would do. But seeing a thread like this and all the other things that happen on this board, keep me going all the time. Love seeing all the success. It's encouraging!


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

I didn't answer when Hugh asked in 2012 because my earnings were laughable at the time. My sale numbers have improved since, but I don't make $500 a month yet. Still loving the craft though


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## Philip Gibson (Nov 18, 2013)

Hugh's question was, and remains, an interesting question. Paraphrasing: _"Those earning huge amounts from book sales are the outliers. A more interesting question/story is how many self-publishing authors are earning enough to pay off some substantial bills, say - $500 a month on average?"_

I've gone from an average of around $100 a month in 2013 to around $300 a month currently. I do expect to reach the $500 mark by the end of the year with more books out and a better grasp on marketing. My goal when I started was to earn an average of at least $600 a month - enough to make a big contribution to our monthly expenses.

Philip


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Still here, still making a full time living. Progress was arrested briefly by KU 1.0 -- it screwed my audio empire completely, but overall I am doing okay.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

swolf said:


> I was the first to respond in that thread. Since then, I've quit my day job and I'm writing full time.


Excellent news! I want all kboarders to be able to say that.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Still here, but not earning anywhere near $500


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## Carol Davis (Dec 9, 2013)

I left my day job at the beginning of May 2014, and am now working full time as a writer and editor.

I made $500 from my books in February 2015, but most months I make about $100-ish.  I'm focusing on turning out novels, now, though - things I can advertise properly - and hope to turn things around in 2016.


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## 69959 (May 14, 2013)

Hugh started that thread about a week after I published my first novel, so I definitely wasn't making much money. I might have had a handful of sales, if that. I remember seeing that post show up in the threads, wishing I could be one of those lucky authors who could answer his question. 

In February of this year I went full time, closing my business of almost twelve years.


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## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

I was making about $500 per month when Hugh posted that thread. Within a year, I was making close to four thousand dollars per month. But then ku 1.0 hit and I took a big hit in earnings. Now I'm struggling to get back to $2,000 per month. Most of my earnings come from sellers other than Amazon.


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## jillb (Oct 4, 2014)

I published my first book in mid Oct'14 and made $3+ in Oct. Since then, sales have been steadily rising. It hit about $500 before falling back to about an average of $300/month because I haven't been able to publish since Feb. I'm hoping that future books will see similar or better sales than my best seller, which accounts for most of my monthly royalties.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't remember answering that thread, but I'm still here and making some money. I had a couple of what DWS calls "life rolls" since 2012 that basically put the brakes on the writing (both parents became extremely ill plus the youngest son went off the rails), but I'm forging on, getting back on track. I know I will start making a living from this, hopefully by the end of the year.

Edited because I can actually spell, I just can't type some days.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Still here and still writing. Working on my 8th and 9th novels. I quit my trucking job one year, two months, and twelve days ago. About this time last year, one of my former coworkers said when I told him I was still not driving for anyone, "Unemployment's gonna run out." Still unemployed and never collected a penny for the privilege.


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## mjstorm (Feb 23, 2013)

I first published in 2013 and started making enough to write full-time this year. (Which was fantastic timing, as I lost my job late last year). Typically I sell 2000-2500 books a month. Waiting to see what changes KU2 makes.

- MJS


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

Started out making enough for a coffee a month. Now I make six figures a year.

I keep saying it, but keep going. Keep writing. There are no guarantees, but_ not_ writing is a guarantee that an author will earn no writing income.  This is way more fun than the lottery, and your chances of making it far superior.


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## jenminkman (Mar 2, 2013)

I wasn't on the original thread because I only published my first book in English in December 2012, but my income for the first few months of 2013 was around $10 a month. The more books I wrote and the more I found my audience and the right promo opportunities, the better things went. I am now making the minimum wage in Holland per month (nett, not gross) from bookselling, and I still teach three days a week as a day job. I might stop doing that in a couple more years if things keep going the way they are now. So I guess hard work pays off! (and you do need some luck, too - I've seen people slaving away and yet failing at this whole indie-pub thing).


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

The KU hit my Amazon sales really hard, but fortunately I went wide in 2012, so I'm still making a very comfortable living from my novels, and substantially more than my last job with HP provided. I don't give my work away for free so I don't kill my own sales by saturating my markets before I have to chance to make those sales. I know that's a very unpopular idea here with so many authors believing that perma-free books is the only way to go, but it's worked extremely well for me. My sales since June 2010 have exceeded 400,000 books, and not one of them free or less than $3.99. I could probably sell a little more these days if I was willing to slash my prices in half, but I'm satisfied with my sales from having 85% of my books priced at $5.99 and $6.99 so I've seen no good reason to lower them. I've learned that fans don't object to paying a decent price for a decent read, so I'll let other authors have the free-loaders who will never buy a book. I consider myself a professional author and insist that I get paid for my labors. I cater to my fanbase, not book resellers.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Shayne Parkinson (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes, I'm still here and still making my living as a full-time writer. And still loving it.


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## Randall Wood (Mar 31, 2014)

I didn't answer back in 2012 as I was a dedicated lurker back then. I was making a few hundred a month off of my first couple books and Amazon only.

Since then I've published three more in the series you see below and a few others you don't see. I equaled my day-job pay in 2013 after going wide and quit in 2014. Now I'm making six figures a year and loving it. I was overjoyed just to equal my day-job pay, the excess since then has just been icing on the cake. 

I have a post-it on my mirror that says "You are extremely lucky", I make sure to read it every day.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I was a prawn back then - in fact, I probably dreamed of being a prawn. I quit the FT job in November 14 and should - all things being equal - be mortgage free by Christmas. Amazon, and, to a lesser - but still important - extent, the other platforms, changed my life.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Still here and still writing. Working on my 8th and 9th novels. I quit my trucking job one year, two months, and twelve days ago. About this time last year, one of my former coworkers said when I told him I was still not driving for anyone, "Unemployment's gonna run out." Still unemployed and never collected a penny for the privilege.


I remember when you quit. It was the perfect thing to do!


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## Mike McIntyre (Jan 19, 2011)

I posted on that thread. Little has changed, even though I've added only one title since then. It was much easier in those early crazy days of Select, when one free download equaled a sale, and you'd see big paid spikes following a free run. To keep income up since 2012 I've expanded into audio and paperbacks, and BookBub has been a huge boost, although I may have tapped out that resource. Honestly, I'm surprised this venture has kept chugging along as long as it has.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

scribblr said:


> I don't give my work away for free so I don't kill my own sales by saturating my markets before I have to chance to make those sales.


Crap! I never got the memo. When did they stop teaching kids to read?


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I remember that thread.

I didn't answer it because no, I was not making over $500 a month at that time. And yes, now I do make quite a bit more than that.

I consider myself very much low midlist, no breakouts at all, just a slow and steady plod up the earnings incline with every new release


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## Christine_C (Jun 29, 2014)

This has been a really interesting read. We only have one book out (published less than a year ago), so it's too early to give progress. But as a new author it's inspiring to read the success stories.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Crap! I never got the memo. When did they stop teaching kids to read?


They didn't. The kids get mommy and daddy to buy the books for them. I'll sell to any age, and give away free to none.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I didn't find kBoards until last year so I wasn't around to post in Hugh's thread, but if I had, I would have reported making about $1200/month on average in Nov 2012. I've posted my stats here before but here they are again: published first book in June 2012 (paranormal romance), quit my day job in November 2013 after writing the second book in a contemporary romance series. I now am on track to make $250K - $300K this year, selling 300 - 500 books a day on average, depending on what promos I run. I write romance, which has a huge audience of eager readers, but also a huge market with lots of authors. Competition is fierce and it's very hard to stay visible, but if you have a decent sized backlist of books that are selling even a dozen+ copies a day, you can make a great living. I currently have 10 full length novels, 3 boxed sets and a couple of novellas.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

KU cut my sales in half. It takes writing more, publishing faster, and a lot more work to keep my average at around five figures a month. No wonder I am exhausted. The only thing that saved me was being wide from the very beginning. Amazon is now only 57% of my total sales when it used to hover around %80. I pay more attention to promoting to the other stores now too. So sad.

Still can't figure out how they thought KU was a good idea. If most of us lost half, so did they. Oh well.


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## Daniel Kenney (Sep 18, 2014)

I starting reading the Boards in 2013 but it took me awhile to pull the trigger. I write kid's books (Middle Grade and lower middle Grade) and I finally published first book in Sept 2014 and published my tenth book three weeks ago. For the past two months, I've grossed over $3000 per month. I plan on releasing two more by the end of August, and then another six by the end of 2015. That number of titles should keep me consistently at $3000 per month or more until next year when I hope to double my titles and hopefully push that monthly income a little higher than 3K. 

So for the newbies (which I'm still very much a part of), this really is possible.  Dan.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

I remember that thread. I'm still here, still making a full-time living, still have LOADS of fun.


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## AmberDa1 (Jul 23, 2012)

I had left my job the month before I published my 1st title in June of 2012. Everything fell into place, luckily- I did well and am still fulltime. Though Life threw a wrench in my publishing schedule- I'm back on track w/new release to come.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

I answered in that thread and can say yes again, although for me writing is a part time, supplement for retirement kind of thing. That thread was back in the day when most of us were willing to share figures if I remember correctly, but maybe not. Maybe we'd already been cured of that by then. One of the several things I love about Hugh is his emphasis on those of us who aren't outliers but whose lives have been improved by self-publishing.


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## Jake Decker (Jul 27, 2012)

I'd be interested to know from the authors who were able to go full time, was there anything in particular you changed back then that got you to where you are now? 

I realize a lot has changed and will continue to change but was it a matter of just more books? Mailing list?


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I replied in that thread, but I can't remember if it was before or after I went part-time. It's been an up and down journey for me. I'd first requested to go part-time at the end of 2011. Things were going great, third book was about to come out and Select had just begun. Unfortunately, it took almost a year for my job get everything in order. The part-time slot I wanted opened up when a coworker became a supervisor, and I called dibs on her part-time spot, but then had to wait for my full-time spot to be filled so we weren't left in the lurch. Whew! By then, it was late 2012. November, I think. I had just published my fourth book, and wanted to try my hand at something other than my thriller series, so I worked on both the next in my series and a romance, but it took awhile for me to get into any kind of rhythm working part-time and writing during the day instead of at night. (still trying to get used to that) 
Anyway, just published my 7th novel a few weeks ago, in addition, I have a short story collection. 

Things were looking sad until the implementation of KU last summer. I know it's a program many despise, but for me, it was a lifeline. It wasn't perfect, but it doubled my income. After a four month stint out of Select in the winter, I now have them back in, and that, combined with a BB ad has allowed me a little breathing room again. I have several books in the works. While I'd love to be a full-time author, unless I hit it big, I don't see that happening for at least five more years when I have enough books out to provide more visibility.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

That was a good thread. I think I replied (too busy writing to go through the whole thing to check), and I might have been making $500 some months, but probably wouldn't have been anywhere near consistent.

Now I make between $1200 and $2000 per month. No breakouts, just a slow increase like others are reporting.


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## Eponaa (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm a long time lurker and started in 2012. By 2013 I made 40k for the year, last year it went to 82k, and this year I've already earned over 340k. KU2 slowed me down but I readjusted my strategy and I'm gaining momentum again. It's been quite the wild ride so far, I hope I can answer again in a couple years that I'm making just as much if not more.


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## DawnLee (Aug 17, 2014)

I didn't respond to that thread, because I had just discovered KBoards and indie publishing, and didn't publish my first book until December 2014. Reading the original thread was a huge motivation for me. I would have been thrilled to supplement my ghostwriting income with $500 a month. My first book didn't do it. 

Seven months later, I'm working full-time on my own books. I released my first in series last month, and this month will miss making five figures by just a hair. Yes, a lot can change in three years. Every now and then, they can change in just a couple of months. So, if you're one of the prawns reading this thread and thinking (like I did) that $500 a month sounds out of reach, it's not. You just haven't reached it yet.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

By the time Hugh's thread was posted in 2012, I had mostly stopped writing and completely stopped any activity on boards or any promotion. For 6-8 months in 2011 and early 2012 before that thread I made more than $500 a month. By the time I changed jobs and refocused in March/April of this year, I was down to about $10 a month. Since late May, I have been pumping some money (not massive sums) into promotion and my gross from Amazon is back around $100 in June and July. I have another book coming out late August or early Sept and another one by the end of the year, but realistically I expect it will be sometime in 2016 before I net $500 a month.

Unless I get a Bookbub per month, that might do it


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## Kathryn Meyer Griffith (May 6, 2013)

Mark
I just happened to catch your statement that KU messed up your audio empire. Do you mean by Amazon's Whispersync or by some other means? I have 20 audio books now, soon will be 21, and worked so hard the last two and a half years to get them all produced only to see my revenue greatly shrink the more audio books I had. I sold 105 audio books last month but only made about $130.00. Mostly because of the 50 cents I get for any Whispersync buys. I think of all the work and time it took to get those audio books done and how little my poor narrators are getting (I did royalty-share because I didn't have the money for straight payment); I don't care as much about my profits as that they get so little now. I can't understand how we can get such a small amount for a $24.95 audio book! You can email me at [email protected] if you don't want to reply here. I'm not sure I will keep doing them if this is all I'll ever get. And yes, KU wrecked me as well last year and now I am 100% wide and the jumps at Amazon just keep on getting higher. But I am grateful every day that I can self-publish on Amazon and all those other places. I am finally making a living (not great yet but miles above what I made with my legacy publishers) since 2012 and I put out my first self-published eBook Dinosaur Lake. I LOVE self-publishing!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

I've only been self-publishing for a little over a  year.  So I wasn't a member of Writers' Cafe or part of that thread.  However, I started in May of last year.  Got up to about $1300.  Lost it.  Now I'm starting over.  I'll get back up there again.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Brian Bergquist said:


> I'd be interested to know from the authors who were able to go full time, was there anything in particular you changed back then that got you to where you are now?
> 
> I realize a lot has changed and will continue to change but was it a matter of just more books? Mailing list?


For me, it was lucking out with a contemporary erotic romance series that took off. I had already published 3 novels in a 5-book paranormal romance series but sales were slow so I decided to strike off and try my hand at contemporary erotic romance series. The first book was published in April 2013 and sold really well, so I followed up with another book in September 2013. That sold well, too. I decided to quit my day job in November 2013 when my income from book sales was 150% of my day job. It was a risk, but I knew that if I could put out more books, I could probably make a decent living. So far so good, but I know that this business can change directions on a dime.


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## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

I currently make nothing, but that thread, and now this one, have given me hope that I will eventually make money publishing my work. I'm grateful for these threads.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

scribblr said:


> They didn't. The kids get mommy and daddy to buy the books for them. I'll sell to any age, and give away free to none.


I'm afraid my point might have been lost in the sarcasm. 
The assumption of saturation is ridiculous. It assumes the premise that school's stop teaching children to read.

Every year, in the US alone, 4 million babies are born, about 11K per day on average. Logic dictates that on any given day, 11K different babies turn one day old, 11K more turn one week old, one month old, and so on.

Logic also dictates that about 4 million children start kindergarten every year and another 4 million start middle school, each and every year. Somewhere in between, there are 4 million children every year who learn to read, 11,000 new readers every single day on average.

Now, if each of your titles is selling 11K per day, you still can't reach saturation, because tomorrow's another day. Sure, not all 11K of those are going to learn to LOVE reading every day, but a good percentage will. A smaller percentage will learn to love a particular genre, at some point in their life. But, if that smaller percentage is as low as .1% of all readers, you're still looking at 11 potential customers every single day. How do you get your book in front of all these potential customers?

Saturation? Bah....


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## AllyR (Oct 21, 2014)

Newbie here! I am trying to lurk less and interact more  . I published my first book in May of 2014, my second in January of this year, and my third will be out next month. Since I've published, I've consistently made $500, often more and I have this forum to thank for it. Thank you! (cyber hug, high-five, fist bump,  or whatever you're like  )Hopefully, I will improve and consistently publish a book every four months, like I ambitiously plan.  My goal isn't to quit my full-time job, because I really like it; but I wouldn't mind working part-time.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

scribblr said:


> I don't give my work away for free so I don't kill my own sales by saturating my markets before I have to chance to make those sales. I know that's a very unpopular idea here with so many authors believing that perma-free books is the only way to go, but it's worked extremely well for me. My sales since June 2010 have exceeded 400,000 books, and not one of them free or less than $3.99. I could probably sell a little more these days if I was willing to slash my prices in half, but I'm satisfied with my sales from having 85% of my books priced at $5.99 and $6.99 so I've seen no good reason to lower them. I've learned that fans don't object to paying a decent price for a decent read, so I'll let other authors have the free-loaders who will never buy a book. I consider myself a professional author and insist that I get paid for my labors. I cater to my fanbase, not book resellers.


It seems odd that someone doing so well would dedicate so much space to criticizing the folks who are taking a different route. I mean, isn't it sort of nice that we're not in there competing with you for those valuable non-"free-loader" readers? Instead, we're toughing it out in the trenches, actually _converting _freebie-lovers into paying customers through the IRRESISTIBLE POWER OF OUR ART! We've left you the comparatively easy task of getting sales from people who are already willing to pay. Where's the gratitude, scribbler? Where's the love?? 

I remember Hugh's thread; I appreciated so much what he was trying to do with that. That said, I sure wasn't making anything in November 2012. I'd first published in April of that year, still had just the one book out, and was about to go wide with it. A year later I made it free. A year after that, I finally got the sequel out, as well as a free short. I've been making between $1,500 and $2,000 a month since then. It's not enough to replace my day job, but it's enough to go part time for a year. I publish very slowly, so I don't expect sustained income, but it's sure been nice while it lasted. 

_edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I wasn't here for that thread (I did take a look though), and last year I made just shy of 10k. I know that's pretty great considering I published my first in Aug 2013. It's my only income, so that was amazing, but this year I've not even hit $3k mainly due to being adult dungeoned by Amazon. This month is the best one so far this year, so hopefully this means things are looking up. And to see so many people writing full time is amazing!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Kathryn Meyer Griffith said:


> Mark
> I just happened to catch your statement that KU messed up your audio empire. Do you mean by Amazon's Whispersync or by some other means? I have 20 audio books now, soon will be 21, and worked so hard the last two and a half years to get them all produced only to see my revenue greatly shrink the more audio books I had. I sold 105 audio books last month but only made about $130.00. Mostly because of the 50 cents I get for any Whispersync buys. I think of all the work and time it took to get those audio books done and how little my poor narrators are getting (I did royalty-share because I didn't have the money for straight payment); I don't care as much about my profits as that they get so little now. I can't understand how we can get such a small amount for a $24.95 audio book! You can email me at [email protected] if you don't want to reply here. I'm not sure I will keep doing them if this is all I'll ever get. And yes, KU wrecked me as well last year and now I am 100% wide and the jumps at Amazon just keep on getting higher. But I am grateful every day that I can self-publish on Amazon and all those other places. I am finally making a living (not great yet but miles above what I made with my legacy publishers) since 2012 and I put out my first self-published eBook Dinosaur Lake. I LOVE self-publishing!


Purely visibility. All of my books were camped out in the top 20 of their categories last year, around 8k-10k rank. Visibility on Amazon is how you sell audio, because there really aren't any promo opportunities. None I can control any way. Now my books have slipped into the abyss. I don't think any of them with audio editions are above 30k now. I used to sell 30 a day in audio. Now I sell 3 a day if I am lucky. I'm hoping new releases will help.


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

Back when that thread was new I was a part-time author making more writing than I was at my day job. I enjoyed that, but I was also a little afraid. What if the gravy train ended? What if it all came crashing down? Could I really give up a solid career, job security, health care, and a retirement program? Sure, writing was paying more... But would I really be able to magnify those results if I quit and devoted full-time effort to the cause?

Yeah, I could. I quit my day job and went full time not long after that post went live.

These days... I make a _little bit_ more.










I made the right decision.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I was in the old thread and am still here. Still writing and earning a living too. Things have improved a lot since then but it's fun to look back and see how excited I was when it was all new. Also fun to see so many old faces I'd almost forgotten about and recognize the ones still around.


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## Lukeofkondor (Jul 15, 2015)

@kurzon that's awesome to see your five year financials! Also, the pyramids of London cover is great.

@bobfrost I just spat my soda after reading that.


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

...Wow.

Yep, that's all I've got. Lol.



bobfrost said:


> These days... I make a _little bit_ more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

Whoa, Bob, that's an awesome number. Good decision!


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## lyndabelle (Feb 26, 2015)

I hope Hugh sees this thread, and does a follow up article about how everyone is doing now. I know what all kinds of hoopla was raised when he was pointing out how Indies were making 5 and 6 figures at the time. It wasn't just outliers. And with all the updates, looks like people that are still doing it have done better. I mean, there is a wide range of how well. People aren't millionaires or as rich as J.L. James and J.K. Rowling, but making a living is all people really want. Paying those bills, eating, having a roof over your head to do something you love. I think that is the real American dream. So, yeah, going to keep doing this. Hope in two years I can post I'm finally paying my mortgage, didn't go back to my old day job, and I'm doing this writing thing full time forever. Good to set goals!


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm another one that didn't post on that thread because I was only earning >$100 a month back then. Now I'm earning between $3000 - $10,000 a month.

There is so much doom and gloom on here but it's amazing how many of us who have stuck to it are now earning the decent bucks.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

I was making a pittance back in 2012 and I'm still not up to coffee status. In the boom years, where a monkey could sell random text, I couldn't move books at all. I seem to have found the deadest area of the fantasy genre. Still, each year has been an improvement.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I quit my day job over a year ago and am still full time. But, I have found it more difficult over the last few months. Young adult is a harder genre to make money in than it used to be. I think a lot of people who were really into YA dystopia books in 2013 have moved on to other genres, maybe new adult and paranormal romance. But, Bookbub has been kind to me and I still have options. I'm clinging on, earning just enough to keep going for now. I've also moved into other YA genres and am building up a small but engaged fanbase.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

I published my first novella in April last year, so I wasn't here for the first thread. 
Last year I made $7000 in total - this year I'm on track to making ~$40000.
I've also not have any breakaway successes, but each book builds the income just a little higher than before. No Bookbub involved.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

JessHayek69 said:


> How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


Huge. It was after my first Bookbub early 2013 that I started getting into categories on Amazon. I wouldn't have had any visibility without them.


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not an author, but I was around when the thread was posted.  I am happy that I am still designing for several authors that I designed for in 2012!  Whilst others disappeared...well, some have not stopped writing, they just maybe moved on to another cover designer.  But some did stop writing too.  And I am still wishing I can find the time to write my novel too (I've had this idea for a story for a long time.)


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## Chris Dietzel (Apr 2, 2013)

This is such a great thread. Very inspiring to see everyone achieving their dreams.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

JessHayek69 said:


> How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


Bookbub has been the cherry on top for me. I've had good months with bookbub, just as good when I got an internal promo push from Apple. This month is shaping up to be my second highest sales month ever. No bookbub but I just put my book 1 permafree on a new series and did other promos (freebooksy, MRR, etc).


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


Quite a lot and it was money well spent. But, like many things, BookBub is a tool in my belt. It's helped me gain exposure, which has in turn helped me gain a following. BookBub now has a huge rival. But, it's only huge if you make it so and to make it so, BookBub helps.

I'm talking about Amazon's new program where they email to your Author Page Followers, when you release a new book. I've heard that it's being done randomly and got my shot at the gold ring last week. The results have been nothing short of amazing. This isn't books sold, but total daily revenue. Which is where the rubber meets the road. It sure would be nice to know the number of followers we have. I hope Amazon makes this a regular thing, and not just random.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I was here for Hugh's earlier post but wasn't making $500/month. I am now. For about a year I've been averaging $1000/month and I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing as it hopefully grows. Bookbub helps and having a permafree for the 1st in my 1st series does too.


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## DawnLee (Aug 17, 2014)

I have yet to get a BookBub. I gaze longingly at the daily email, though.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Saturation? Bah....


Agree wholeheartedly. This is a point Konrath has been making for years and it's one of those things that the first time you hear it, it's so obvious that you kick yourself for not having figured it out on your own.

That doesn't mean that getting visibility isn't a challenge, but I would only need a fraction of a percent of the Amazon ebook buyers just in my genre to buy my books to make 7 figures a year.


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

JessHayek69 said:


> How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


Zero.

Unless you count the angry-writing I do every time they deny another of my books. Again.

I've had books sitting 300 in the kindle store with a whole bevy of real reviews, a fantastic cover, a 99 cent on-sale price, and I've offered to literally throw money at the bookbub people to accept it in any of the related categories for the book, and they still deny me. I'd happily take a bookbub. I'd pay them thousands of dollars every single month, but they don't want my money .


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I just released my first book 2 days ago so I'm not anywhere near 500 a month yet. The good news is I have had some sales and some readers in KU. My second book will be coming out the middle of next month, and that's when I have promotions going.

Ideally I would love to start by making $2000 a month basically replacing about half of my day jobs income. I could stay at home and write on that and sky's the limit from there.

I love seeing how many people are finding success in writing, I love it even more as a reader. I would say more than 50% of what I read is indie authors. I love buying books knowing I am supporting the authors and the editors and not a publisher, for the most part.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

I was in the original thread and still here too.  Have been steadily increasing my readership and making what would considered a living wage for the past 2 years. Haven't gone full time yet (mainly for family-related reasons, which I shall spare everyone listening to me whine about , but I am reaching the point where I expect to pull that full-time trigger before year's end.


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## Sandy_Williams (Mar 14, 2015)

This is my first month self publishing, and I've made well over $500 on Amazon US alone. Not so much elsewhere. I come from traditional publishing, though, so I have a tiny bit of a pre-existing readership. The interesting thing to see will be how quickly my sales drop off. I'm almost at the 30 day mark, and I'm just barely maintaining 10+ sales a day. I'm holding my breath, hoping it will last for another month or so before the plummet.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

Wow!  I did not expect to come back to 4 pages of responses!!  That is so awesome.  I'm not expecting to make any money from self-publishing but it's sooo awesome to know it's possible.

I should have also asked what genre(s) everyone writes in... looks like (based on the pictures of all the novels in the signatures) that romance is probably most popular, but I also see that there are successes in various genres.

This thread will help me click that publish button, which I have some anxiety about!  (YA Dystopian)

Thank you everyone!


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I remember reading Hugh's original post but I don't think it was until June of 2014 that I saw it. At the time, I was making the vast majority of my income through my publishers and was squeaking out a mortgage payment through self-pubbing, hoping I could eventually move 100 books a day on my own. Now, just over a year later, I'm moving 500+ books a day and making app. 50k a month between two pen names. Hubs was able to leave his day job in September and handle a lot of the day to day bookkeeping etc, I've hired someone part time to handle my marketing, and I'm hoping that next year will be our first seven-figure year. *fingers crossed*


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> How much did *BOOKBUB *play a role in everyone's success?


Zero. I have monthly bookbubs for my publisher stuff but I've never had a BB for my self-pub stuff (although, that will change on August 19th. I finally landed one, whoot!) I think most of my new readers came from a very (VERY) robust release schedule, first in series permafrees and the success of a multi-author box set over the holidays (which we are doing again this year).


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

bobfrost said:


> Zero.
> 
> Unless you count the angry-writing I do every time they deny another of my books. Again.
> 
> I've had books sitting 300 in the kindle store with a whole bevy of real reviews, a fantastic cover, a 99 cent on-sale price, and I've offered to literally throw money at the bookbub people to accept it in any of the related categories for the book, and they still deny me. I'd happily take a bookbub. I'd pay them thousands of dollars every single month, but they don't want my money .


This happened to me for a long time until I started using the comment feature to pitch myself. Hard, lol. Have you tried that at all? Like, I'll say something like "This book has over x # of 5-star reviews and was a USA Today bestseller. I'm totally flexible on date and genre (if you have a book that crosses genres) and am willing to do a .99 sale OR a free offering" etc. That seemed to be the key for me and once you have one that performs well for them, they are very eager to have you back. Another thing they like to see is a steep reduction in price so if something has been .99 in the past few months, they are less inclined to say yes than if you are pitching a 4.99 book that is .99 or doing a first in series freebie that has never been free. (I would also state that in comments. Like "This 4.5 star rated book sat on the Amazon top 500 for two months and has never been priced lower than ___". 
Anyway, just thought I'd mention in case you hadn't tried that yet!


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## bobfrost (Sep 29, 2013)

I've tried everything short of a virgin sacrifice.

Bookbub doesn't want me .


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> I'm afraid my point might have been lost in the sarcasm.
> The assumption of saturation is ridiculous. It assumes the premise that school's stop teaching children to read.
> 
> Every year, in the US alone, 4 million babies are born, about 11K per day on average. Logic dictates that on any given day, 11K different babies turn one day old, 11K more turn one week old, one month old, and so on.
> ...


The point wasn't lost. I'm a professional author and words are my business. I chose to take the high ground and ignore your sarcasm by posting an innocent reply rather than getting into a tit-for-tat with you. But you seem determined to drag me into a nasty battle with your posts, so I'll play the game you seemed so anxious to begin with your opening gambit.

Most of the kids I know have almost no interest in reading. No, I'm not saying that no children read, which is what you'll try to accuse me of, but most kids I know spend most of their free time playing apps on their cell phones. And kids who don't read, normally grow up to be adults who don't read. So it doesn't matter if four million kids are born every day, or ten million kids are born every day. If they're not reading, they don't figure into the book buyer equation at all. So your 'logic,' as pertains to population density, just went out the window, and your 'facts' are absurd. The only numbers to consider are kids and adults who actually read books on a *regular* basis, which eliminates about 90% of the population at the outset.

Next, we have to consider genre. Most younger women who read, and a good percentage of more mature women, are voracious readers of romance books, and read little else. Since it's by far the hottest genre among women overall, it's also the most competitive. But from everything I've read on boards such as this one, if you sell a few books and they 'click' with your readers, you'll soon be selling everything you publish because women, much more than men, spread the word to all their friends and book club members. Even so, it's virtually impossible to saturate a market such as romance since it is so large. But not everyone writes romance, Wayne, and other markets aren't quite so open.

The next most popular genres seem to be mystery, suspense, and thrillers, followed (but not closely) by fantasy, and then bringing up the rear in the six most popular genres, is sci-fi. Within the latter two genres are sub-genres with very specific focuses, and each has dramatically more limited readerships. With their more limited appeal, they can be saturated.

Lastly, we have to consider access. Not everyone shops at Amazon (OH MY GOD! How could he even say that! That's blasphemy! The Great and Powerful Zon will smite him for sure.)

The window of opportunity for sales is finite. There may be, as you claim, four million babies born every day, but only a tiny fraction of those babies will ever be a market for our books. And every book given away is a book you might have sold, but definitely won't. It's also a book that will consume the time of a reader and stop them from buying the books of other authors. That's fine if you're the one who wrote the book. But what if the book was written by another author, and it's your books that never get purchased because of freebies? The usual solution to that by freebie proponents is too give freebies in greater numbers so you can steal the reader away from another author. That's really what we're really talking about here when we discuss freebies. It's an effort to steal the attentions of a reader. I know that comment is going to light a fire under some people here, but facts are facts. It's like the news story I saw yesterday about the gasoline price wars currently going on in the Midwest. (Can you believe $1.68 a gallon at one station? I'm on the west coast and paying $4.39 a gallon for regular. Thank you Sacramento.)

To summarize, if you write in a sub-genre such as, for example, steam-punk, it's entirely possible to saturate your market. It doesn't matter how many babies are born, or how many pieces of rice are in a twenty-five pound bag.

I know I'm also going to be attacked by steam-punk authors now, but the facts are the facts folks. If you want to write in a market you can't saturate, write in one of the top four genres, and definitely don't focus on subgenres, such as Mystery-Noir-Lesbian Protagonists.

And if you're a freebie proponent, and want to give your books away, go ahead. They're your books.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

bobfrost said:


> I've tried everything short of a virgin sacrifice.
> 
> Bookbub doesn't want me .


If you didn't do the virgin sacrifice, I have to say, I think you're slacking...


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Chrisbwritin said:


> This happened to me for a long time until I started using the comment feature to pitch myself. Hard, lol. Have you tried that at all? Like, I'll say something like "This book has over x # of 5-star reviews and was a USA Today bestseller. I'm totally flexible on date and genre (if you have a book that crosses genres) and am willing to do a .99 sale OR a free offering" etc. That seemed to be the key for me and once you have one that performs well for them, they are very eager to have you back. Another thing they like to see is a steep reduction in price so if something has been .99 in the past few months, they are less inclined to say yes than if you are pitching a 4.99 book that is .99 or doing a first in series freebie that has never been free. (I would also state that in comments. Like "This 4.5 star rated book sat on the Amazon top 500 for two months and has never been priced lower than ___".
> Anyway, just thought I'd mention in case you hadn't tried that yet!


I finally used the comment section and was surprised that it worked on a new series with fewer reviews than I thought would qualify me but I pitched it as a sequel to my bestselling series. I argued that readers who downloaded my books through a previous Bookbub would probably be interested.

As to Bookbub being a key to my success, I have had 7 Bookbub promos so far since November 2013- five 99c promos and 2 free promos. I have another coming up in August. I'll keep applying because they are by far the best ROI. They have put me in front of a LOT of new readers and made me many many times the cost of the ad.


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## scribblr (Aug 20, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> It seems odd that someone doing so well would dedicate so much space to criticizing the folks who are taking a different route. I mean, isn't it sort of nice that we're not in there competing with you for those valuable non-"free-loader" readers? Instead, we're toughing it out in the trenches, actually _converting _freebie-lovers into paying customers through the IRRESISTIBLE POWER OF OUR ART! We've left you the comparatively easy task of getting sales from people who are already willing to pay. Where's the gratitude, scribbler? Where's the love??
> 
> I remember Hugh's thread; I appreciated so much what he was trying to do with that. That said, I sure wasn't making anything in November 2012. I'd first published in April of that year, still had just the one book out, and was about to go wide with it. A year later I made it free. A year after that, I finally got the sequel out, as well as a free short. I've been making between $1,500 and $2,000 a month since then. It's not enough to replace my day job, but it's enough to go part time for a year. I publish very slowly, so I don't expect sustained income, but it's sure been nice while it lasted.


Even when you use smileys, your responses to my posts have the definite odor of venom. I really get under your skin, don't I, Becca?

My post stated what *I* do. I didn't tell anyone else what they should do. If you have feelings of guilt, it's not my fault. And I doubt you're converting many freeloaders to paying customers. They simply move on when you stop offering freebies to another author who is offering freebies. The sales you're making are most likely to readers who never took one of your freebies. If it took freebies to develop a fanbase, I would never have had a single sale. I don't even advertise. I've never purchased a single ad. I put my effort into writing books that appeal to readers, and they spread the word.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

scribblr said:


> Even when you use smileys, your responses to my posts have the definite odor of venom. I really get under your skin, don't I, Becca?
> 
> My post stated what *I* do. I didn't tell anyone else what they should do. If you have feelings of guilt, it's not my fault. And I doubt you're converting many freeloaders to paying customers. They simply move on when you stop offering freebies to another author who is offering freebies. The sales you're making are most likely to readers who never took one of your freebies. If it took freebies to develop a fanbase, I would never have had a single sale. I don't even advertise. I've never purchased a single ad. I put my effort into writing books that appeal to readers, and they spread the word.


I think you are wrong. Sorry, but my stats tell me otherwise. What works for you and what you think is a good approach is not necessarily what works for everyone else.

If permafrees didn't work, my income would't have doubled --quadrupled -- after I put two of my series starters permafree and advertised using Bookbub and FB ads. My income went from high four figure months ($8700) to an average of $32K per month since. The two Bookbubs cost me $300 altogether. I've had ROI of between 200% - 400% on Facebook. Bookbub ROI is off the charts. My experience attests to the power of free, Bookbub and advertising.

In addition, my mailing list has grown due to the exposure and they always help on release day and with early reviews. It's all part of an indie's arsenal, which you can choose to use or not. It's up to you. Frankly, I'm darn glad I have used those tools, because romance is a very competitive market and every bit helps.

YMMV.


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## swolf (Jun 21, 2010)

scribblr said:


> And I doubt you're converting many freeloaders to paying customers. They simply move on when you stop offering freebies to another author who is offering freebies. The sales you're making are most likely to readers who never took one of your freebies.


For the six months before Amulet went free, the sequel sold a total of 25 copies.

The month Amulet went permafree, the sequel sold 495 copies. And it sold over 3,000 copies over the next year, while Amulet remained permafree.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Again, you missed my point with your chapter long diatribe. Or maybe you got to it on the third or fourth paragraph. I didn't read that far.  (Just because)

My point never was about selling books to kids, or even young adults. Which seems to be the only point you're getting. My point is about the impossibility of saturating a growing market.

I'll try Barney-style, though I'm sure everyone else on here has gotten it by now. 

If 11K people are born in the US every day, wouldn't it stand to reason that 11K also have their 30th birthday today, as well? And another 11K have their 50th? And another 11K retire and find they have a lot of empty hours to fill? Give or take a 5% attrition rate due to early death.

How is it possible to saturate a market that grows continually?

My favorite author and series are John D. MacDonald's "Travis McGee" series. All 21 of those books are selling pretty well at the moment, though he's been dead for 29 years. I dare say, those books will never saturate the market, even though all of them are multi-million sellers.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## mrforbes (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't think I posted in the original thread. I've been publishing for a little over 2 years. It's still amazing to me when I look at Book Report and see I made in 6 months writing books what I'll make all year writing code.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

I remember Hugh's thread from 2012. I can't believe that was three years ago. It was what made me decide to pursue writing seriously, and though it took me a while to get from there to publishable and publishing, I will forever be grateful to the people who shared their stats, then and now. 

Today, things are so much harder than they were in 2012. It's scary to those of us starting out now, because there's that constant feeling of, "Did I miss the boat?" But hearing these success stories, whether recent or long-term, reminds me that if I persevere, work my ass off, then I have a shot.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't agree with his take that permafree and cheap doesn't work. All short-term strategies that have shown some viability should be tried when reasonable, including free, 99 cent, KU, bookbub, Facebook ads, etc.

Someone like Scribblr also shows that there's another way to do things. He apparently has had a lot of success, a la Joe Nobody and Elizabeth, by pricing higher and refusing to sell at cheaper prices.

The only difference is his tone. I'm fine with someone's tone being off if their logic is sound--and I think his logic is sound regarding HIS OWN STRATEGY.

I don't, however, agree with his take that others are wrong for using differing strategies. Looking at his post history, I believe he probably makes a better living off his work than 99.9 percent of those on this board.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

bobfrost said:


> Back when that thread was new I was a part-time author making more writing than I was at my day job. I enjoyed that, but I was also a little afraid. What if the gravy train ended? What if it all came crashing down? Could I really give up a solid career, job security, health care, and a retirement program? Sure, writing was paying more... But would I really be able to magnify those results if I quit and devoted full-time effort to the cause?
> 
> Yeah, I could. I quit my day job and went full time not long after that post went live.
> 
> ...


Wow...phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.

I've often wondered how many people walking away from their jobs to to this full-time were walking away from full time solid careers with job security, health benefits and retirement packages. One of these days when I am so lucky to be able to do this full-time, walking away from such a day will be my biggest fear and dilemma. As a salaried, full-time, unionized employee with an awesome benefits package, it'll be a rough decision when it comes to that.

Thanks for sharing your experience. So happy to see that it is paying off so well for you.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

dianasg said:


> Today, things are so much harder than they were in 2012. It's scary to those of us starting out now, because there's that constant feeling of, "Did I miss the boat?" But hearing these success stories, whether recent or long-term, reminds me that if I persevere, work my ass off, then I have a shot.


Reading all these and I still think I missed the boat but maybe if I swim hard enough and fast enough I can climb aboard.


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## AlexStiner (Nov 12, 2014)

Indiecognito said:


> Started out making enough for a coffee a month. Now I make six figures a year.
> 
> I keep saying it, but keep going. Keep writing. There are no guarantees, but_ not_ writing is a guarantee that an author will earn no writing income.  This is way more fun than the lottery, and your chances of making it far superior.


Thanks for this. Needed to hear it today, after seeing my weekend free day on Amazon fizzle. Nothing else to do but go home from work and write four more pages...


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

tashamoon said:


> Reading all these and I still think I missed the boat but maybe if I swim hard enough and fast enough I can climb aboard.


I think there are new boats leaving the dock all the time. 

When I started in 2012, I read every bit of advice on indie publishing I could find -- Konrath, Howey, Gaughran, Platt, Penn, TPV -- everything. I instituted pretty much everything I read about: metadata, covers, blurbs, websites, landing pages, mailing lists, Facebook advertising, social media, giveaways, permafree, series, pro editing, pro covers, book bloggers, launch teams, etc. All of it is legal and ethical and all of it helps with visibility. There is a HUGE market for romance novels and the trick is to write an appealing book and get it in front of new eyeballs and to do that over and over again. Marketing and promotion get it in front of new eyeballs beyond what I can reach through Amazon / retailers discovery engines alone.


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## Logan R. (May 13, 2011)

tashamoon said:


> Reading all these and I still think I missed the boat but maybe if I swim hard enough and fast enough I can climb aboard.


You definitely haven't missed anything! I first published in 2010-2012, and did okay. Nothing special. I stepped away to focus on college and other things, but came back to it this year. I basically started from square one, and published my first book in mid-May. It's the end of July, I'm already making 5 figures, and I'm going full time in September. So jump right in! The water's fine!


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

*high fives Logan, Alex, Tasha, and Sela*


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## SunnyDay913 (May 5, 2015)

Logan R. said:


> You definitely haven't missed anything! I first published in 2010-2012, and did okay. Nothing special. I stepped away to focus on college and other things, but came back to it this year. I basically started from square one, and published my first book in mid-May. It's the end of July, I'm already making 5 figures, and I'm going full time in September. So jump right in! The water's fine!


Agreed. While I'm not yet at Logan's level (congratulations, that's awesome!), I posted a thread here a couple of weeks ago lamenting my lack of sales. I'm wide, permafree, and with a little bit of promotion this month I've gone from earning two figures every month to now the low four figures. That's with only two paid books (genre: contemporary romance/women's fiction). You can bet I'll be putting in some major butt-in-seat time over the next few months to continue my current series and branch out to another series now that I've seen what's possible.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I left my day job in January, but not until I had a huge cushion. I don't miss it at all. In the spring I will buy my dream house outright, including all new furniture. I will have a weekly maid, a weekly landscaper and a weekly pool cleaner. Once I sell the craphole I live in now I will be completely debt free -- and I will still have an even larger cushion. I put away for retirement each month. After the new house is settled my retirement planning will double. Then I will start focusing on a winter place -- probably in my favorite city of New Orleans. I'm a firm believer in working hard. I should easily have more than 800,000 books purchased this year, and that number does not include borrows or free giveaways for the anti-KU or "you suck if you have cheaper books" crowd. Between my two names this year I should make seven figures for the first time ever and I'm flabbergasted by it. I'm humbled people want to read my stuff (even if some people worry how cheap it is). Speaking of that, I'm writing a Christmas short during the hottest week of the year here. Everyone have a great day.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

If someone is having success and they have a strategy, even an unconventional one, I'm always interested in debating the pro's and cons and so forth. Logically, I have no problem getting into it with someone even if they can be looking down their nose at me the whole time.

But no, I'm not defending anyone's tone--just saying tone doesn't invalidate expertise or experience.

Again, I disagree with Scribblr's theories that people who give books away are ruining their careers or whatever--but I do think that he's probably using some techniques that have allowed him to be very successful, and picking his brain about those techniques could still prove valuable.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I left my day job in January, but not until I had a huge cushion. I don't miss it at all. In the spring I will buy my dream house outright, including all new furniture. I will have a weekly maid, a weekly landscaper and a weekly pool cleaner. Once I sell the craphole I live in now I will be completely debt free -- and I will still have an even larger cushion. I put away for retirement each month. After the new house is settled my retirement planning will double. Then I will start focusing on a winter place -- probably in my favorite city of New Orleans. I'm a firm believer in working hard. I should easily have more than 800,000 books purchased this year, and that number does not include borrows or free giveaways for the anti-KU or "you suck if you have cheaper books" crowd. Between my two names this year I should make seven figures for the first time ever and I'm flabbergasted by it. I'm humbled people want to read my stuff (even if some people worry how cheap it is). Speaking of that, I'm writing a Christmas short during the hottest week of the year here. Everyone have a great day.


You are my hero.  I hope to follow your example and maybe this year get it all lined up. Selling house as soon as it's ready, paying off all debt, putting more in my retirement fund, and buying something nice by the ocean somewhere. Key to that is to write books that appeal to my existing audience and keep building that audience bigger!


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I wasn't around when Hugh's original thread was posted. I published my first book in October of 2014, during what was supposed to be the KU apocalypse. My first month was four figures, and every month since then has been at least four figures. More than one has been five. I can't even imagine where I'll be when I have a dozen books out.

This thread was a fascinating read. I love seeing just how many successful authors are out there killing it. Logan, your new book is doing insanely well. Proof that you can jump in at any time and kick some serious ass.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I left my day job in January, but not until I had a huge cushion. I don't miss it at all. In the spring I will buy my dream house outright, including all new furniture. I will have a weekly maid, a weekly landscaper and a weekly pool cleaner. Once I sell the craphole I live in now I will be completely debt free -- and I will still have an even larger cushion. I put away for retirement each month. After the new house is settled my retirement planning will double. Then I will start focusing on a winter place -- probably in my favorite city of New Orleans. I'm a firm believer in working hard. I should easily have more than 800,000 books purchased this year, and that number does not include borrows or free giveaways for the anti-KU or "you suck if you have cheaper books" crowd. Between my two names this year I should make seven figures for the first time ever and I'm flabbergasted by it. I'm humbled people want to read my stuff (even if some people worry how cheap it is). Speaking of that, I'm writing a Christmas short during the hottest week of the year here. Everyone have a great day.


Wow, wow, wow, wow.

Incredible Amanda, and well deserved for your hard work.

I'm right at the beginning, but aim to publish six books a year until I can go full time. However long it takes.

Stories like yours are very inspirational (although I'll never reach your heights!)


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

gorvnice said:


> If someone is having success and they have a strategy, even an unconventional one, I'm always interested in debating the pro's and cons and so forth. Logically, I have no problem getting into it with someone even if they can be looking down their nose at me the whole time.
> 
> But no, I'm not defending anyone's tone--just saying tone doesn't invalidate expertise or experience.
> 
> Again, I disagree with Scribblr's theories that people who give books away are ruining their careers or whatever--but I do think that he's probably using some techniques that have allowed him to be very successful, and picking his brain about those techniques could still prove valuable.


What works for scribblr might not work for someone else, and what works for me might not work for someone else again. To think that one strategy that works is inferior to another that works is wrong-headed IMO since both are working. I have no doubt that scribblr is successful but so am I and I am no less an author because I use permafree or advertising to get there. We aren't all the same, write in the same market or to the same audience. Tactics vary. My green is as green as his, except of course that Canadian money is all different colours so... I should say purple and pink and green and red 

_Edited quoted post. --Betsy_


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## JCAlbert (Jun 29, 2015)

I would just like to thank everybody who has shared their experience. Your comments are invaluable for the anxious, scared writer who's afraid to take the leap. Perhaps I won't take a nap after all... Time to write.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

Sela said:


> What works for scribblr might not work for someone else, and what works for me might not work for someone else again. To think that one strategy that works is inferior to another that works is wrong-headed IMO since both are working. I have no doubt that scribblr is successful but so am I and I am no less an author because I use permafree or advertising to get there. We aren't all the same, write in the same market or to the same audience. Tactics vary. My green is as green as his, except of course that Canadian money is all different colours so... I should say purple and pink and green and red


Agreed. Everyone who's had success has done so in their own unique way.

Some folks who have success will tell you you're doing it wrong. And they might be completely off base in their assessments...

My interest is in continuing the dialog and finding out people's logic and why they hold the opinions they hold. Because it can oftentimes make me look at things differently.

There have been plenty of times where I've made posts here and been attacked, despite the fact that I didn't insult anyone personally. And when I'm attacked, I usually continue the conversation. I still am interested in what someone's trying to say.

That was my only point.

Opinions can still be valid even when expressed poorly, even when expressed with sarcasm or even when expressed insultingly.

There are plenty of folks here who insult others indirectly and sneakily all the time, and I find that just as annoying as those who come right out and insult you directly. But I don't dismiss them entirely because of their tone.

Everyone has something to share and contribute who has sold books and been around the business...

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> I wasn't around when Hugh's original thread was posted. I published my first book in October of 2014, during what was supposed to be the KU apocalypse. My first month was four figures, and every month since then has been at least four figures. More than one has been five. I can't even imagine where I'll be when I have a dozen books out.
> 
> This thread was a fascinating read. I love seeing just how many successful authors are out there killing it. Logan, your new book is doing insanely well. Proof that you can jump in at any time and kick some serious ass.


On a totally other note, Chris, I just wanted to say that I love your book and the app! Picked it up last week and found it super helpful at a point where I had a lot going on in my life (grown kids moving out, selling a house etc. etc.) and was struggling to make my word count. Just what I needed to get back on track. If you ever need a testimonial, let me know


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Chrisbwritin said:


> On a totally other note, Chris, I just wanted to say that I love your book and the app! Picked it up last week and found it super helpful at a point where I had a lot going on in my life (grown kids moving out, selling a house etc. etc.) and was struggling to make my word count. Just what I needed to get back on track. If you ever need a testimonial, let me know


Just hearing that it's working is enough for me =)


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure gorvnice was responding to me saying scribblr was "talking out of his ass." And I wasn't going to respond in the interest of not further derailing the thread, but.

I believe he's had the success he claims, in the way he claims, and take no issue with any of that. His is a fair strategy. We all can do things how we like.

But there's also a way to talk about one's own success without putting down others, which is exactly what he did (as Chris pointed out). Case in point: Joe Nobody, who's been mentioned here as someone else who makes bank by pricing high, selling paperbacks, and other things that might be considered unconventional among indies. He's described his methods plenty of times here on KB without being a jerk. Can we learn things from those who do things differently, independent of their tone? Of course, but no one's arguing that point.

I guess it's a testament to how much the tone and culture of KB has changed, that Hugh's original 2012 thread is 18 pages of motivating indie success stories, and here we are, three years later, and we can't make it to page 5 without, well, this.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## AlexStiner (Nov 12, 2014)

Fictionista said:


> Wow...phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.
> 
> I've often wondered how many people walking away from their jobs to to this full-time were walking away from full time solid careers with job security, health benefits and retirement packages. One of these days when I am so lucky to be able to do this full-time, walking away from such a day will be my biggest fear and dilemma. As a salaried, full-time, unionized employee with an awesome benefits package, it'll be a rough decision when it comes to that.


Even if you decide not to do it, I think being at the point where you can have the option means you've already won.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

dianasg said:


> Pretty sure gorvnice was responding to me saying scribblr was "talking out of his ass." And I wasn't going to respond in the interest of not further derailing the thread, but.
> 
> I believe he's had the success he claims, in the way he claims, and take no issue with any of that. His is a fair strategy. We all can do things how we like.
> 
> ...


I was responding to your comment. Thanks for clarifying what you meant...

As for the thread degenerating and the tone change of kboards...people like Russell Blake and many other successful self-pubbers started taking off long ago. I agree the tone of the place in general has gone downhill.

But just as much of that change has been from the piling on that people here do against anyone who takes an opinionated stand, or one that runs counter to the current status quo of the boards.

It's not people like Scribblr, who's been here for years, or even me--I've been posting here since before almost everyone currently participating. And yet you might say I'm taking the tone of the place down. It's just not true.

If the place has degenerated, it's because really rigorous discussion and debate has been replaced by shouting down and piling on and so forth. And there are way more people engaging in that sort of behavior than just a couple of personality types with their axes to grind about free books or whatever...

EDITED TO ADD: Let's put a finer point on it. Hugh himself, the subject of this thread, recently stopped participating here because of the way he was being treated by other members. Not just a couple of people who think they know what's best in terms of publishing strategies--but due to the way many, many folks here treat someone who takes a controversial stand on a complex topic. So if you want to decry the way things have gone, don't you find it ironic that the very person mentioned in the headline of this thread doesn't even feel comfortable coming here anymore?


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

I was reading the threads in 2012, but didn't get the courage to publish something until the end of 2013. I write sweet romance, so expectations weren't off the chart, but I do think it pays off to focus on writing what you most love to read, and to explore sub genres within that area. An experiment at the end of 2014 under a pen name in a slightly different sub-genre of sweet romance has done very well for me. It's possible to make six figures writing sweet romance.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

AlexStiner said:


> Even if you decide not to do it, I think being at the point where you can have the option means you've already won.


Having that upper hand, is an exhilarating feeling, too. Knowing that the work you're doing after work is making just as much income (or more) as what you do for a paycheck gives you a surprising different attitude when it comes to your work and discussing something with the employer.

In my case, I had a micro-manager for a boss. Nobody liked him and I knew for certain he didn't like me. On my last day, he made a not so veiled threat, which a year earlier I would have cringed at. Instead, I just tossed him the keys and smiled. The look on his face was priceless.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

gorvnice, I don't think it's any one poster who has brought the tone of the place down - you or scribblr or anyone else. Your posts in this thread have been quite reasonable. 

I think the degeneration of the board's tone is mainly due to people being, well, jerks. Whether that's being a**holes or piling on or something else. The presence of jerks makes the non-jerks go silent, which is what I and so many others have done. KB is not a place where people can disagree civilly, anymore.

My original post in this thread was simply to implore folks in the thread not to let one jerk drag down a thread that had some good potential. And yeah, maybe that was presumptuous of me, and I shouldn't have gone straight to the term 'ass,' but that was my only point. 

It is a terrible shame Hugh isn't here anymore, but I can't say it's a surprise. He's a good guy and he lasted a lot longer than most here who've had his success. I've watched him take quite a bit of abuse over the years, and I don't always agree with him, but the vitriol is never justified.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Having that hupper hand, is an exhilarating feeling, too. Knowing that the work you're doing after work is making just as much income (or more) as what you do for a paycheck gives you a surprising different attitude when it comes to your work and discussing something with the employer.
> 
> In my case, I had a micro-manager for a boss. Nobody liked him and I knew for certain he didn't like me. On my last day, he made a not so veiled threat, which a year earlier I would have cringed at. Instead, I just tossed him the keys and smiled. The look on his face was priceless.


This! I haven't quit my job, but the company's future is uncertain (as is often the case in the startup world). I just kind of shrug, because I can transition into writing if the company goes under. I also don't stress at all with work, because I'm secure in the knowledge that they need me. Not the other way around. Writing as a second income has been amazing.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Having that hupper hand, is an exhilarating feeling, too. Knowing that the work you're doing after work is making just as much income (or more) as what you do for a paycheck gives you a surprising different attitude when it comes to your work and discussing something with the employer.
> 
> In my case, I had a micro-manager for a boss. Nobody liked him and I knew for certain he didn't like me. On my last day, he made a not so veiled threat, which a year earlier I would have cringed at. Instead, I just tossed him the keys and smiled. The look on his face was priceless.


Lol! This is awesome.


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## gorvnice (Dec 29, 2010)

dianasg said:


> gorvnice, I don't think it's any one poster who has brought the tone of the place down - you or scribblr or anyone else. Your posts in this thread have been quite reasonable.
> 
> I think the degeneration of the board's tone is mainly due to people being, well, jerks. Whether that's being a**holes or piling on or something else. The presence of jerks makes the non-jerks go silent, which is what I and so many others have done. KB is not a place where people can disagree civilly, anymore.
> 
> ...


Agreed. And I certainly don't defend Scribblr's rhetoric either, for the record.

I'm just questioning the way there's such an avalanche of biting comments the moment someone posts something that could be construed as controversial or whatever....even insulting. Just, you know, be ready to have a dialog with the person instead of going right for the jugular.

Hugh did last a long time here. Most of the others are long gone. Joe Nobody (who you discussed) barely posts here anymore...occasionally, but not often and certainly doesn't share at the level he did previously.

Russell Blake, when sharing his strong opinions about how to succeed, got enough pushback to where he walked.

If successful authors with strong personalities are made to feel unwelcome here then we'll soon be left with crickets and tumbleweeds. And I have to say, although we still have a handful of really successful indie authors who participate here, it's WAY WAY down from what it used to be. Some of the biggest names (HM Ward, Hugh, Russell) are gone, and have not been replaced.

Some others have gone incognito. Others still get hassled every time they try to post something substantive.

And if you want more upbeat posts about indie success, we'd best not chase off all the successful authors. Because next year we probably won't even make it to three pages with they way things are going 'round here.

/End of thread hijack


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

dianasg said:


> Lol! This is awesome.


It was pretty satisfying, I must admit. I'd already planned on quitting six weeks after that fateful day, anyway. Writing income had at the time, replaced driving income. I posted on here for ideas on just how to quit in an epic fashion. I forget who suggested it, but someone said I should hire a limo and pull up in the truck yard when the boss was outside being a jerk, buzz the back window down, lower my sunglasses and say, "I'm needed elsewhere." Then just buzz the window back up and drive away.

I was really considering that. Sounded like great fun and a frivolous waste of money. Oh, and recording it of course. From multiple camera angles.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

Chris Fox said:


> Just hearing that it's working is enough for me =)


I've been setting it for 5 minute sprints at a time. I'm amazed at what I can get done. Thanks, again.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Having that upper hand, is an exhilarating feeling, too. Knowing that the work you're doing after work is making just as much income (or more) as what you do for a paycheck gives you a surprising different attitude when it comes to your work and discussing something with the employer.


Definitely. There is something refreshing in knowing you have options - and even more refreshing when those around or above you know it too.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

People were still posting in the original thread in 2014 which is when I came over here - I remember that thread from then.  It's very heartening to see how well some folks are doing! 

In some ways I'm doing better, in some ways worse. I have a few (booK) titles that have sank into the quagmire.  In 2014 I actually had more revenue on CD sales than on ACX. That's pretty much died off, and my per-unit ACX revenue is down (my average payment for the same title). I don't get sales off of my Associates account anymore.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Catching up late with this thread, but I'll add my two penn'orth in the hope of encouraging anyone who thinks they may have missed the boat. Nope. Still plenty of boats around.

I didn't post in the original thread because I was still deep in writing the first draft of what became my first novel. I hadn't even begun to dream of self-publishing in 2012. But that first draft got knocked into shape, and was self-pubbed in September 2014. For the first few months I made coffee money, while polishing the second book and (most important) reading the words of wisdom posted here.

Having learned a bit, I published the second book in January 2015 with some modest promotion which went well, and my earnings shot past the $500 mark that month. The third book went out in May, and earnings have been above $1,000 per month ever since. Book 4 comes out in September, and I'm reasonably confident there will be another boost. It isn't order-the-yacht money, but it's _wonderful _to know that people are interested enough in my scribblings to pay good money for it (although KU has been kind to me, too, in both incarnations).

I'm not daft enough to imagine this will continue indefinitely without a) keeping up the writing pace and b) promoting regularly. I haven't yet snagged a BookBub ad, and I've never got my head around Facebook ads, so this is all done with regular paid promo like ENT. And for those who are interested, I write epic fantasy but no trilogies, no permafrees, and I write the sort of books I want to read (I wouldn't know how to 'write to the market').


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

I was in that thread.  I made just over $500 with fiction and about $3000 a month in non-fiction when that came up and since then I've made NYT Bestsellers list, USA Today six times, and published more than 30 books. I left my job a long time ago, January 2013, and have been a full-time writer ever since. But I feel for newbies. Everything has changed.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> But I feel for newbies. Everything has changed.


That doesn't sound like a good thing...


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Take heart, Tasha. I've been at this less than a year. The game has changed, but the core rules are the same. Adapt, and keep writing =)


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

dianasg said:


> I guess it's a testament to how much the tone and culture of KB has changed, that Hugh's original 2012 thread is 18 pages of motivating indie success stories, and here we are, three years later, and we can't make it to page 5 without, well, this.


I was absent from kboards for over 2 years as I mentioned, but. . .I can testify that what I've seen here in the past few months is in no way worse than what happened a couple of times in 2011. The first time was related to Amazon algorithms being changed and the second was the introduction of Kindle Select. The second one made last month's KU2 blowup seem like butterflies blowing kisses. I can only guess that KU1 last year blew a few gaskets and that when it became clear that the algorithms had changed to diminish the effects of free (2012 or 2013 I believe, though it's probably been adjusted several times), the reaction was not exactly akin to interacting with the Dalai Lama.

Point is that a place like kboards will always have flare-ups. And successful authors (as well as less than successful ones) will quite understandably decide it's not worth their time any more. That will be a loss, but they will be replaced by others. This place still adds the same value it did 3 or 4 years ago and it still has plenty of opportunity for meaningful interaction. I do my best to try not to add to the negatives (I occasionally fail). It's the most any of us can do.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

edwardgtalbot said:


> Point is that a place like kboards will always have flare-ups. And successful authors (as well as less than successful ones) will quite understandably decide it's not worth their time any more. That will be a loss, but they will be replaced by others.


THIS.

Some of the newer bestselling authors are making just as much or more than the oldies.

Money is money. It's sad that some of the oldies have left, but I'm inspired by some of the newer bestsellers we have here. Life goes on.


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

Jolie du Pre said:


> THIS.
> 
> Some of the newer bestselling authors are making just as much or more than the oldies.
> 
> Money is money. It's sad that some of the oldies have left, but I'm inspired by some of the newer bestsellers we have here.


As a newbie myself, I'd love to know who would be the new bestsellers, so I can stalk their previous posts.

Go.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

CM Raymond said:


> As a newbie myself, I'd love to know who would be the new bestsellers, so I can stalk their previous posts.
> 
> Go.


Wayne, Amanda . . .


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Man, I'll post here tentatively, but the last time I posted numbers I got accused of ****measuring. Which is what Gorvnice would refer to as "chasing off the successful authors. Got called rude, too. But, at the same time, newbies need to know what is possible so....

I didn't post on Hugh's thread...I hadn't published a book yet. I didn't publish until June 2013. Didn't sell many books until I went permafrost with a first in series, and then I started selling. So, scribbler, I believe that plenty of peeps who got my freebies read the rest of my series. Unless everyone who bought book 2 and 3 just picked them up without having read my free book one, which defies logic. But I digress.

Anyhoooooo.....in 2014, I finished two more series, bringing it to three series, each related to one another and each with a permafree that I keep evergreen with ads. I cleared $130,000 in 2014. This year, relatively speaking, has been more of a slog, because ku hurt a lot. But a bb ad at the end of this month on my most popular series hopefully will turn things around. 

So the moral is keep writing, keep trying different things, if you put some duds out, don't give up, and never think you have it made. Things always change. 😊


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## R.U. Writing (Jul 18, 2015)

I remember that original thread as well and I remember reading it and feeling inspired.

Sadly, it took another three years to finally get my first book out.

I look forward to a reboot of this thread in 2018--the reboot of the reboot. Hopefully, then I'll have something else to contribute


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

anniejocoby said:


> Man, I'll post here tentatively, but the last time I posted numbers I got accused of ****measuring. Which is what Gorvnice would refer to as "chasing off the successful authors. Got called rude, too. But, at the same time, newbies need to know what is possible so....
> 
> I didn't post on Hugh's thread...I hadn't published a book yet. I didn't publish until June 2013. Didn't sell many books until I went permafrost with a first in series, and then I started selling. So, scribbler, I believe that plenty of peeps who got my freebies read the rest of my series. Unless everyone who bought book 2 and 3 just picked them up without having read my free book one, which defies logic. But I digress.
> 
> ...


I love that last bit! Thank you for sharing, Annie (and fingers crossed for a great BB run!).



Jolie du Pre said:


> THIS.
> 
> Some of the newer bestselling authors are making just as much or more than the oldies.
> 
> Money is money. It's sad that some of the oldies have left, but I'm inspired by some of the newer bestsellers we have here. Life goes on.


I mean, if the prevailing attitude of members is that they are happy with KB as it is, where nice and successful and thoughtful people are driven off, only to replaced by _new_ nice and successful and thoughtful people who will in turn ALSO be driven off, then... okay? lol. I mean, that kind of proves my point, that KB has declined, because it didn't used to be that way. In my opinion (repeat: my _opinion_), KB doesn't do what it once did -- what it did for me when I was barely dipping my toes in (I joined in 2010 and have been a regular visitor since). It's not the place, anymore, where most indies are comfortable coming to share their numbers and their success (though some still do, for which we are grateful). Now, this stuff mostly happens in private groups, loops, and forums. And that's a shame, but who can really blame them? So I feel for the newbies who don't really know what they're missing.

That said, there's not really a fix, and this is a conversation I've seen hashed out a million times before, so... apologies for the derail! *cartwheels out of the thread*


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## harker.roland (Sep 13, 2014)

Thanks for giving a boost to my optimism everyone. Sorely needed.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2015)

dianasg said:


> I mean, if the prevailing attitude of members is that they are happy with KB as it is, where nice and successful and thoughtful people are driven off, only to replaced by _new_ nice and successful and thoughtful people who will in turn ALSO be driven off, then... okay? lol. I mean, that kind of proves my point, that KB has declined, because it didn't used to be that way. In my opinion (repeat: my _opinion_), KB doesn't do what it once did -- what it did for me when I was barely dipping my toes in (I joined in 2010 and have been a regular visitor since). It's not the place, anymore, where most indies are comfortable coming to share their numbers and their success (though some still do, for which we are grateful). Now, this stuff mostly happens in private groups, loops, and forums. And that's a shame, but who can really blame them? So I feel for the newbies who don't really know what they're missing.
> 
> That said, there's not really a fix, and this is a conversation I've seen hashed out a million times before, so... apologies for the derail! *cartwheels out of the thread*


I've got 15 books of various lengths to publish between now and December 31. (One is with the editor now.) I've decided, today as a matter of fact, that I'll be checking this board only *ONCE A MONTH*. I've read some interesting and informative threads since my return, but I can feel myself getting sucked into some of the drama, like I did when I was here before, and I can't have that.

If some authors are writing more than they're at this board, I'm joining you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

let's keep this thread positive and on the original topic.

Debate is fine, strong opinions are fine, but negative characterization of your fellow members is not.  I'm going to be going through and doing some pruning.  EDIT:  I've edited or removed some posts.  If you have any questions, please PM me rather than derail the thread.

Thanks.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Desert Rose (Jun 2, 2015)

anniejocoby said:


> Man, I'll post here tentatively, but the last time I posted numbers I got accused of ****measuring. Which is what Gorvnice would refer to as "chasing off the successful authors. Got called rude, too. But, at the same time, newbies need to know what is possible so....
> 
> I didn't post on Hugh's thread...I hadn't published a book yet. I didn't publish until June 2013. Didn't sell many books until I went permafrost with a first in series, and then I started selling. So, scribbler, I believe that plenty of peeps who got my freebies read the rest of my series. Unless everyone who bought book 2 and 3 just picked them up without having read my free book one, which defies logic. But I digress.
> 
> ...


Annie, please measure your virtual **** any time you want; I like the reminded that writers are not all doomed to abject poverty. Every time I see six figures, I'm given something to strive for.

In the interests of posterity, I published my first erotic short in March and made $10. In June, with three shorts out, I broke $100 for the the first time, sales and KU1 borrows combined. This month, two new releases and two promos have got me over $100 in sales, and I'm not even trying to measure KU2; my pages read equal a LOT of full reads of the two books that are still in, but that's still under 3000 pages. I'm going to focus on getting two more shorts out next month, and going wide; hopefully, that will let me push my sales up another $50-$100. And in three years, I hope to be one of the "quit my job to write full time" people.


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

I was still timidly lurking when the original post came out, reading everything, digesting information, and very slowly working around to the idea that just maybe this new self-publishing thing was something I could do. I didn't get my first book out until Christmas last year, and this is the first month I've made more than $500, so there was no instant out-of-the-gate success for me. But I've seen what a big difference the second book makes (second book came out in June), so I'm convinced a slow and steady increase lies ahead. Maybe next time this topic comes around I'll be able to report life-changing income. I sure hope so!

If you're just starting out now, or yet to start, don't worry that you've "missed the boat". Build your own boat and start sailing. _When _you start doesn't matter, as long as you do.


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## NoBlackHats (Oct 17, 2012)

Started very late in  2014, was making four figures last couple of months, and now regrouping after KU2 hit.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

@Betsy - Thank you!  I didn't mean to start anything negative with this thread... was hoping for all positives!

@Wilden Turk - I'll put it on my calendar to start it again in 2018.    Hope I'll be right there with you contributing hope to others.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks (in general) and Scribblr in particular,

This is not a place for a debate on the merits of permafree. Posts that try to continue an earlier argument that broke out in this thread have been and will be removed. I'm not going to allow this thread to be derailed.

Not every post needs to be responded to. Feel free to ignore people.

Betsy
KB Mod

_STANDARD DISCLAIMER: If the above doesn't apply to any of your posts here, then it's not directed at you. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't try to squeeze it on. If you don't see any of the cited issues in posts here, that's because they've been removed. If you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, or anything else, feel free to PM me. The goal is to have the discussion continue. Civilly._


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

Still here and still not making enough money to live on yet (<$500/mo) but hopeful for the future.


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## LoriP (Jun 2, 2014)

Unlike some of the others, KU 1.0 was great for me. I had just started experimenting with a pen name and it gave me a great boost. If I average my earnings over the last year, I've made over $1000 / month, but not consistently. Some months were $200 and others were $3000. It'd be nice to have that level out... at the $3000 mark or more. 

It has paid bills and allowed us to do some fun things though! And that's been wonderful. We went to Hawaii on my earnings and also replaced the shingles on the roof. My next goal? A new-to-me car.


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## Amity Lassiter (Nov 28, 2014)

I was a new fish to the pond right when KU came out (released the end of September). After holding out and seeing zero sales on the other vendors, I jumped in. KU has made the difference for me, as a new author -- it has freed me up from having to put a lot of elbow grease (and money) into marketing and promo and being able to still make some money while keeping my head down and producing more books. I have two books out now and have steadily bumbled along averaging between 5-800/month - it would be closer to 2-300/month without KU.  

I'm not rolling in dough but I could feasibly pay my rent from my earnings most months. I've been using this money to pay for my wedding in October, which we will probably be able to walk away from with less than $2000 in credit card debt, while having the wedding we want and not having to skimp on much. I write contemporary western romance.


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## TaxationIsTheft (Apr 15, 2015)

For anyone thinking you've missed the boat, don't fret. Seriously. 

I wasn't around when Hugh posted his original thread (I was very much in the early stages of researching this whole indie thing), and I didn't indie publish until mid-April of this year. That being said, I'm currently averaging about $1700 a month. This month is actually the first month since I published that I won't hit four figures (the 30-day and 90-day sales cliff struggle is real), but I have another book coming out next month that will hopefully help things rebound.

Seeing the posts from everyone who's making GOOD money doing this writing thing, and who have been able to quit their day jobs is incredibly inspiring, though. I think Amanda and Christine are my new heroines.


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## G.L. Snodgrass (Aug 12, 2014)

A year ago I stopped querying agents and self-published. I have made almost 28K and hope to do better next year when I start advertising. I made a lot of mistakes, learned a lot. and have enjoyed it a great deal.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

I've been officially at this for 2 months.  I've averaged 250 per month.  Very prawny. 

But I'm optimistic. I have 3 more releases between now and mid November in my fairy tale series, and 2 almost ready to go in contemporary romance series. So by Jan 2016, I'll have, between this name and a pen name, 12 works. 9 novels and 3 novellas.

That's the schedule,  at least. All but 2 novellas and one novel are written.

So I'm waiting to see. 

Thanks for this post and all the replies. It makes me think there's hope.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Every day, I'm amazed and humbled when I look at overnight sales. Sometimes, it's only been enough to hit Burger King, then there are mornings when I wake up and look at it and realize I made a full week's pay from my old job, while I slept. Regardless of whether it's a couple bucks or like these last two weeks, a couple hundred, I'm always astonished that while I was sleeping, people were reading my stories and paying me to do it.

My story's not unusual and I've told it here before. There have been other successful writers before me and many of you new writers looking for a boat, will find it. I wasn't even published when Hugh's post came out in 2012. I was a long haul trucker who liked to tell stories about the places I've been and the people I've met. 
Through my family's prodding, I put together an idea for my first novel based on some old short stories I wrote a long time ago. And I wrote it.
My son-in-law showed me how to self publish it. And I did it.
Another author (nobody from here) took me under his wing after reading that story and challenged me to write a longer second book in half the time. And I did.

Those two were published on October 8, 2013 and December 10, 2013, after having started writing in June, just six months earlier. The first novel sold 23 copies before the second came out and both sold over 100 copies between 12/10 and year's end. My mentor suggested I pull the first, do a rewrite with better editing and a better cover. And I did it. 
January was my first four digit month at $2575.

I found KBoards two weeks later and began learning how to be a better writer and publisher, then released my third novel two months later in early April, 2014. Marketing's always been my strong suit, but marketing books took some learning. Sales continued to increase and I quit my day job of 13 years in May, 2014 and released a prequel at the end of May. Yeah, that's seven months after publishing, to quitting and going full time. Yeah, I got lucky, but I've always said that chance favors the prepared mind. Two months after releasing the prequel, it was in a promo in late July and early August with BookBub. My gross for August (including my first All-Star bonuses) was $23,035.19. In Kindle sales. And it wasn't the first five digit month.

Last month, I celebrated the second anniversary of the day I started writing my first novel. As you can see in my sig line, it takes hard work, on top of luck. Each one of those books is in the top 10K and pretty much always have been. That doesn't just happen, it takes lots of hard work. And a plan to succeed, with gradient steps called goals. Meet each goal, or better yet, clobber the crap out of it and if your plan is to succeed, you will be a success.

So yeah, it can be done. But, man, you gotta have your ducks in a row, your poop in a group, and be ready to grab that brass ring with both hands when it comes around. Because it takes a lot more than just luck. Success will never happen to you, it can only happen because of you.

Full disclosure? 
In 2013 I made about $500 all book sales combined, but mostly paperback. 
In 2014 I made exactly $102,525 from KDP.
In 2015 I've made $81,544.08 so far from KDP. I expect to reach $130K by year end, at least.
My plan for 2016 is to gross over $200K.

Many have come through here (some are still here) who make a lot more than I do. There's also a few who claim to but really don't. So, do your own homework kids. What works for some, won't work for others and what works for others might not work for you. My best advice is to just write a lot and get better at your writing. Read a lot too. Read in your genre and read on what other successful people have done. And take your time about it for crying out loud. There's no rush. Above all else, have fun with it.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

edwardgtalbot said:


> I was absent from kboards for over 2 years as I mentioned, but. . .I can testify that what I've seen here in the past few months is in no way worse than what happened a couple of times in 2011. The first time was related to Amazon algorithms being changed and the second was the introduction of Kindle Select. The second one made last month's KU2 blowup seem like butterflies blowing kisses. I can only guess that KU1 last year blew a few gaskets and that when it became clear that the algorithms had changed to diminish the effects of free (2012 or 2013 I believe, though it's probably been adjusted several times), the reaction was not exactly akin to interacting with the Dalai Lama.
> 
> Point is that a place like kboards will always have flare-ups. And successful authors (as well as less than successful ones) will quite understandably decide it's not worth their time any more. That will be a loss, but they will be replaced by others. This place still adds the same value it did 3 or 4 years ago and it still has plenty of opportunity for meaningful interaction. I do my best to try not to add to the negatives (I occasionally fail). It's the most any of us can do.


This is my impression, too. Numerous hyper-successful indies like Amanda Hocking and Modwitch had left KB before the first thread this one's referencing. People were arguing just as hard in 2012 as in 2015. I post a lot less than I used to, but it's not because the attitude here's worse. I just have less to contribute.

I don't think I posted to the original thread, but I made full-time money in 2012, if barely. Now, that year would comprise a down month.

And see, I'm trying to think what kind of lessons to draw from that. But I just wrote more books, tried different covers, tried more markets, tried more formats, and advertised whenever it made sense to. That's all pretty common wisdom at this point.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

scribblr said:


> To summarize, if you write in a sub-genre such as, for example, steam-punk, it's entirely possible to saturate your market. It doesn't matter how many babies are born, or how many pieces of rice are in a twenty-five pound bag.
> 
> I know I'm also going to be attacked by steam-punk authors now, but the facts are the facts folks. If you want to write in a market you can't saturate, write in one of the top four genres, and definitely don't focus on subgenres, such as Mystery-Noir-Lesbian Protagonists.
> 
> And if you're a freebie proponent, and want to give your books away, go ahead. They're your books.


As a steampunk (no hyphen) author, I disagree. Your outlook is flawed, as it assumes a finite number of readers in a niche market. However, if you are open to tools like freebies and 99 cents, you can actually expand your niche, bring in new readers, and make a comfortable living. I receive a number of emails from new readers that start off, "I have never read a steampunk book before..." But they have picked up my first book while it was cheap/free, they have liked it and gone on to purchase all my other books.

Your market is only limited if your approach is blinkered.


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Those two were published on October 8, 2013 and December 10, 2013, after having started writing in June, just six months earlier. The first novel sold 23 copies before the second came out and both sold over 100 copies between 12/10 and year's end. My mentor suggested I pull the first, do a rewrite with better editing and a better cover. And I did it.
> January was my first four digit month at $2575.


Hi Wayne, thanks for posting your inspirational story.

If you don't mind me asking, how much writing had you done before June 2013?

Kerrie


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## CelinaGrace (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm late to the party as usual... I didn't post on the original thread in 2012 - I'd just started indie pubbing then but hadn't come across Kboards. I went full time in June 2014 and haven't looked back. I'm on course to earn six figures this year (as long as that's in dollars, not pounds ).


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## foxprorawks (Jul 19, 2015)

Marina Finlayson said:


> I was still timidly lurking when the original post came out, reading everything, digesting information, and very slowly working around to the idea that just maybe this new self-publishing thing was something I could do. I didn't get my first book out until Christmas last year, and this is the first month I've made more than $500, so there was no instant out-of-the-gate success for me. But I've seen what a big difference the second book makes (second book came out in June), so I'm convinced a slow and steady increase lies ahead. Maybe next time this topic comes around I'll be able to report life-changing income. I sure hope so!
> 
> If you're just starting out now, or yet to start, don't worry that you've "missed the boat". Build your own boat and start sailing. _When _you start doesn't matter, as long as you do.


Thanks for posting this.

I aim to get my first novel out by Christmas this year, with further books in the series to follow.

In a year's time, if I'm making anything like $500 in a single month, I'll be overjoyed. Slow and steady wins the race.

Matt.


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## Lukeofkondor (Jul 15, 2015)

Three short stories out. One book of short stories. Making enough for a few coffee trips here and there. 

But releasing my first trilogy of novel's this year which are much more commercial, in a series, to be released within a 6-month period. Let's see how that goes.

Also I had a short film go viral. 50,000 views in 2 weeks. Converted to very little sales lol.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Lisa Manifold said:


> I've been officially at this for 2 months. I've averaged 250 per month. Very prawny.
> 
> But I'm optimistic. I have 3 more releases between now and mid November in my fairy tale series, and 2 almost ready to go in contemporary romance series. So by Jan 2016, I'll have, between this name and a pen name, 12 works. 9 novels and 3 novellas.
> 
> ...


$250 from the ground up in two months is outstanding. Many (MANY) new authors struggle to sell a book a week. Gaining that visibility early on is the hardest part. A robust release schedule will definitely help with that, and if you're making $250 a month just two months in, and you follow through on that release schedule, I foresee good things for your future. Courtney Milan did a great post a couple years back (maybe it was last year? Gah. Brain fart) about levels of visibility. I don't recall them, precisely, but I do remember her saying something along the lines of, "It's way harder to go from selling 0 books a month to 500 books a month than it is to go from selling 500 books a month to selling thousands." I concur. Getting the ball rolling is the hardest part. Once it's in motion, you just gotta keep pushing to help out that momentum.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that because you're shortchanging yourself. There are people who have been on this board for years who would kill to be selling more than one copy a day in their first two months, so good on ya! *high fives*


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

The market has changed. It changes every time something big happens, like free being split from best sellers lists (boom time for indies), KU 1 and KU 2, Scribd ditching romance etc. What I did in Feb 2014 probably wouldn't work if I started out new today, but that isn't to say there are more opportunities, there are! it's about finding what works for you, and that requires trial and error. You need to f*ck up, to know where not to spend your efforts. I read a comment from a very successful indie author basically saying, she had no freakin' idea how to launch a career today, because back when she started, the market was so very different. Newbies, you need to grab the market by the balls today, not worry about what could have happened had you started a few years earlier.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Lunachick said:


> Hi Wayne, thanks for posting your inspirational story.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how much writing had you done before June 2013?
> 
> Kerrie


Hi Kerrie. In the late 1980s, I wrote a bunch of short stories, which were never published. Life happened, jobs, kids, wives, ex-wives, and so on. So, I gave it up. I've done a good bit of traveling, around the world in the Corps and around the Caribbean after that. It never took much prodding for me to launch into a "sea story." That's what Marines call a tall tale of adventure. My wife found part of a short story manuscript, hand written on the back of my divorce papers from my first wife and prodded me to try writing a novel. That was two years ago, last month.

So, between the failed short stories in the 80s and the beginning of my first novel, Fallen Palm, in June of 2013, I didn't write anything.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

anniejocoby said:


> I didn't post on Hugh's thread...I hadn't published a book yet. I didn't publish until June 2013. Didn't sell many books until I went *permafrost *with a first in series, and then I started selling. So, scribbler, I believe that plenty of peeps who got my freebies read the rest of my series. Unless everyone who bought book 2 and 3 just picked them up without having read my free book one, which defies logic. But I digress.


Freudian slip? 

In all seriousness, I love your posts, sharing all your tips, advice and what worked for you. They've been very motivating. Keep 'em coming.


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## Fictionista (Sep 14, 2012)

AlexStiner said:


> Even if you decide not to do it, I think being at the point where you can have the option means you've already won.


You're so right. Just the freedom of options to stay or leave my job will be worthwhile.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Very inspiring read, this thread (well, not the argument earlier, the other bits..!). I'll be publishing my first couple of things in a few months time. Hopefully when this thread rolls around again, I'll be able to post good news!


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## CaraS. (Jul 18, 2014)

I wrote prolific fiction back in the late 80s/90s...tried the publishers. Got VERY close a couple of times, but deals always fell through. When I first got online around 95 I started writing serials, sending out "episodes" via email and had a website with my work. Had a HUGE list of readers, but of course, it was all free. And I tired of it. Then an early ebook publisher who sold to Barnes & Noble online for the first ebook reader, Rocket (yeah, long dead now) picked up my novels. Sold quite a lot, but then the Rocket disappeared. Epublisher went belly up, rights reverted to me. I just sort of gave up at that point, had a lot of other stuff going on in my life.

Fast forward to 2013...and though I'd been aware of the publishing possibilities at Amazon, just didn't know if I wanted to go through the learning process. However, I DID have a lot of time after leaving my position at a local newspaper, so I jumped in. I made all those previous novels available, updating a few to current time, leaving others with original time-period settings. I make almost $500.00 a month and do very, very little marketing. Sometimes I don't bother for a few months, then will do a few small ads. Don't have a mailing list either.

I have only written one recent novel, during Nanowrimo last year. I keep thinking one day soon I'll start writing at the blinding speed and utter devotion I did back in the 80s, but so far just haven't jumped into it, though I DO have a lot of ideas, even some outlines. 

I'm in my 60s now, comfortably retired, and some of my procrastination is due to lack of  motivation, no doubt. Not burning with the need just now, though I LOVED being immersed in fiction writing -- the happiest time of my life, even without publication. 

In general, I would have LOVED to had the opportunity Amazon has given self-published authors back in the 80s/90s...it would have been life-changing for me, I'm sure. I guess I'd say just to always remember that, and be glad we now have this opportunity instead of ONLY the mainstream publishers.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Thanks all for sharing. Priceless knowledge!


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm both inspired and depressed by all the positive posts.  I've been at this since 2013 and I'm not close to earning $500 a month.  Not even in the ballpark.

I think I picked the wrong genre at the wrong time.  I'm working to change that.  Thanks for letting me see what is possible.


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## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

I probably posted in that thread, it was back when I was writing full-time and almost earning enough to support my family. Had ObamaCare gone through a couple years earlier, I probably would never have gone back to the workplace. At the time I was making around $40k/year writing, which was enough to eke out a living with the bills we have and the lifestyle we enjoy, but paying almost $1,000/month for health insurance was a backbreaker. So I went back to work in February of 2013 in a series of kinda scrappy jobs that finally ended this June. With the crappy work situation and my own depression, my writing output dropped precipitously, and so did my revenue, all the way down to a low of $6,102 in 2014. But when my mother passed away last September after a long battle with dementia, I found a new focus and a new drive, 

So now, six months after kicking things into high gear this January, I'm averaging about $3k/month, hitting 2-4,000 words per day Monday - Friday, and enjoying the work again. I've released a novel, two novellas, a short story collection, and an anthology so far this year, with three novellas dropping in August, so I expect great things for the rest of the year. 

If I could give one piece of advice to anyone wanting to make a career out of this - work on your craft more than you work on promotion and presentation. A good cover or back cover matter will sell a couple of books, but a good book will sell much more. We focus a lot on discoverability, and not enough on being excellent writers. So make sure you know your craft before you worry about trying to sell your book.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

rjspears said:


> I think I picked the wrong genre at the wrong time. I'm working to change that. Thanks for letting me see what is possible.


Not to derail, but have you considered updating your covers and/or taking a look at your blurbs, RJ?

I see some decent reviews for your books of the dead series, but to me your covers much more scream "graphic novel" than anything. You have similar zombie-themed books in your also-boughts that have much more visceral, eye-catching covers for horror survival.

Looking at the rank of some of those also boughts tells me the zombie genre is quite alive and well (excuse the pun). So I'm thinking by revamping your presentation, you might be able to (ugh pun again!  coax some life into those titles.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

Rick:

Thanks for your advice.  Maybe it is time to switch it up and try new covers.


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

John Hartness said:


> If I could give one piece of advice to anyone wanting to make a career out of this - work on your craft more than you work on promotion and presentation. A good cover or back cover matter will sell a couple of books, but a good book will sell much more. We focus a lot on discoverability, and not enough on being excellent writers. So make sure you know your craft before you worry about trying to sell your book.


That's great advice. Sell-through is more important than a well-selling single book, unless that book sells in the millions.

I've posted about my own path before, and it lines up with a lot of others'. The one common denominator tends to be a strong work ethic and volume. I'm lucky for any number of reasons, one of which is that I work very fast; I always have. It's really hard for some, I know. But anyone, even the slowest writer, could turn out a work a month. Even short works can sell very well.

Branding is important. The perception of success is important, too. Never talk about yourself to potential readers in an apologetic manner. And always write about your book as though you believe in it (as you should).

One tough thing about high volume output is compromise. If I had a year to work on every book, it would be lovely. I would edit and hone until every single word was exactly what I wanted. But as it stands I deal with the fact that what I write is good--sometimes even great. But not perfect. There is no such thing as perfect writing, anyhow--Mockingbird being a possible exception.

One can make massive money in this industry, but it's unlikely to happen. You have to find the right balance of good writing, good timing, good fortune and visibility and the odds are that you won't. But if you work hard, chances are good that you'll make enough, eventually, to live on. My own income has dropped with KU2. My response has been to pump out more work. When you enjoy the hell out of something, it doesn't feel like work. I'm astounded to find what I'm capable of; my next novel should be finished in four days (rough draft), and I only began it six days ago. I don't write as much as someone like Amanda does, but I write every day, and I outline pretty thoroughly. That makes a novel in two weeks possible.

Just keep enjoying yourselves.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

John Hartness said:


> But when my mother passed away last September after a long battle with dementia, I found a new focus and a new drive,


Sorry about your mom... My mom passed away in Sept 2013 from a horrrrrrible and short (10 months from diagnosis until the last day) battle with cancer. I wish I could find focus and drive but I haven't. I focus way too much on fear... of a lot of things too not just writing/publishing.

Thank you for sharing your story.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I saw Hugh's thing in fall 2013, when I first came to KBoards. I'd been published for about 14 months and had been doing well enough from the start not to be one of the folks he wanted to hear from. Not a superstar, but a strong seller. It's been--not steady, but steadily good since the beginning. Since January 2013, my earnings have ranged from 15K to 60K per month. So--not steady, but good.

I DON'T have a super high volume output. I write long novels, and they're what my audience wants. I can put out at max a book in 2-1/2 months. My speed now is about 450K words a year. Over the past year, I "wrote ahead" for projects, and published exactly one short novel in 10 months. That was rough, but with frequent promotions, I was able to stay above 18K per month during that time. 

I would say that the things that have helped me are (1) being in Select and using the "free" days; (2) having a lot of luck in terms of timing etc., and (3) having a strong voice and writing style, so I get good crossover between series and subgenres. Having a strong voice and style means not everybody will like you, and some people will HATE what you do, but you will stand out and your books have a better chance of being "sticky." I do not follow trends at all, except for my most recent book (but there were Reasons). In fact, I generally find out about trends after I wrote the book and think, "Whoops." To give an example--I found out that the trend in romantic suspense was Navy SEALS or at least men in uniform, constant world-jeopardy, guns and the hero and heroine on the run. 

Whoops. I'd just written a wheat farmer and a geology professor in small-town Idaho. Not a SEAL in sight. The book has sold great. So--I don't think you have to write to trend to succeed. 

I might have done better if I'd done things the way other folks recommend--permafree, writing to trend, writing shorter books and putting them out faster, etc., etc. But I've done well enough that I think--probably not. I've written exactly what I would like to read--the reason I started writing in the first place--and have been able to find other people who wanted to read that too. I really wonder if I'd have stood out at all if I'd just been using a reasonable amount of writing skill to write--whatever. Billionaires or shifters or SEALS or whatever. Plus, I didn't start doing this for money, and I still don't, not really. I do it because I like it a lot. And I'm really only able to have a story I care about come into my head. Nothing else will even arrive, much less live in there. So I'm basically stuck with my wheat farmers and so forth. 

Best of luck to others. There are lots of paths, I think. You do have to be able to write stories people want to read, craft them well, present them well, and find a way to get them in front of people. You seem to have to produce reasonably fast, at least 300K a year or so, to do really well. And they have to be words people want to read--genre works better, let's face it. But within those limitations, I do believe there are lots of paths.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm like Rosalind ... I don't write particularly fast. Lost over an hour and a half of childcare last year, and became an executer of a trust (Sh!t job that pays no money in my case. Say no if you're asked.) which was kind of like a part-time job on top of my other part-time job that I used to support my writing habit. I think I average only about 600 pages a year.

My covers don't reflect their genre. I'm working on it.

I wrote in third person present tense. I also don't write to market.

I still make more than $500/month. I don't make five figures a month on a regular basis yet, but I can see where it might happen some day.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

C. Gockel said:


> I wrote in third person present tense. I also don't write to market.


I like reading third person present quite a bit myself and am using it with my one series. Like anything else, it has to be done well of course.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

My serials actually resulted in over $800.00 payout this month. But of course that was with the final KU 1.0 month.

The game has changed and I am trying to write more and more, better and better, faster and faster.

Full novels are the goal but doing what I can for now. Something is better than nothing.


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## Sheluvspink (May 14, 2014)

I published my first novel in June of 2014. I've been full-time since January of this year. I'm doing better than I EVER could have imagined is all I'll say. I write in a really popular genre though new adult romance. Also I'm wide on all platforms, my first book is permafree.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I like reading third person present quite a bit myself and am using it with my one series.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Sheluvspink said:


> I published my first novel in June of 2014. I've been full-time since January of this year. I'm doing better than I EVER could have imagined is all I'll say. I write in a really popular genre though new adult romance. Also I'm wide on all platforms, my first book is permafree.


Your covers are awesome and your story sounds great! No wonder you are rocking it.  I just downloaded your first book. Congrats!


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

I wasn't around in 2012 and only released my first book in 2013. Today I have 5 books out in a series and I have just started a brand new series. 2015 was the year I cracked 10k/month thanks to the readers of the small, niche (and apparently over saturated? lol) steampunk market


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm convinced that my lack of appeal to Bookbub is the reason that I don't earn big bucks 

No, I've never been able to get a bookbub, which I think is why my growth was pretty slow, but it was very consistent. Each book I put out moves me up a little bit. I don't have big highs and lows or amazing months and terrible months. I have a pretty reliable ball park figure every month which pays our mortgage and our bills, but not much else. I joke with my husband (who has now gone part time and helps me with child care) that his income is our "spending money". Mine covers our outgoings and his covers our fun.

I guess my message is that in the long run you don't need bookbub if you have patience and perseverance. I know loads of people do amazing within a few months but I think for _most _people it just takes time to build it up.

Yes, I always have fears that something will change and it will all end, but one huge advantage of being an Indie is that we can swerve if we need to. In fact I have this on a post-it over my desk:

_Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis_

(I'm not trying to be ponsy, I just think it sounds nice in Latin  ). It basically means: Times change, and we change with the times.

And in this industry it is very relevant. For example I was going to write a serial, especially to take advantage of KU1. I had outlined it and I had bought a series of ten covers. KU2 came along and I scrapped the whole plan before I wasted invested any time on it. I didn't want to let it go, but if you don't adapt then you are just being stubborn, which never helps.

Anyway, I think it those small things; the kind of things you will learn right here in the WC, that will help those of us who can not write fast and/or brilliantly to continue to make a career out of self publishing. Most definitely over $500 a month anyway.

And lastly, Hugh does in fact still come here from time to time, he's just pretty busy right now getting ready to sail away from it all. It is true that plenty of successful people have gone, but so have hundreds/thousands of less successful people, people who planned to write a book but never got around to it, people who wrote one and discovered that they didn't get rich and then left. It is the nature of a forum that people come and go, and after 2.5 years here I just roll my eyes if someone feels the need to declare it. Gordon Ramsey once said something along the lines of "It's not for the people who loudly complain about their meal, it's the ones who quietly pay the bill but never come back, _they_ are the customers you really wanted to keep."

I like the WC just as much as I did in 2012 and I love the varied opinions we get from old timers and new comers, from established authors and freshly minted too. I just enjoy hanging out with other writers, they/you make this place great.


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## Indiecognito (May 19, 2014)

I've never used Bookbub and have made $20,000 in a month. It's not essential---though it probably doesn't hurt, either! 


Evenstar said:


> Yes, I always have fears that something will change and it will all end, but one huge advantage of being an Indie is that we can swerve if we need to. In fact I have this on a post-it over my desk:
> 
> _Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis_
> 
> (I'm not trying to be ponsy, I just think it sounds nice in Latin  ). It basically means: Times change, and we change with the times.


Love this. It's so true.


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

I posted in the original thread (albeit in mid-2013), and I count myself blessed to have been one of those that found success almost immediately. Thus, I'm fortunate in that I've been clearing the $500-a-month hurdle essentially since day one. (Thank you, readers!)

That said, I made a lot of mistakes early on, but experience truly is the best teacher. (For instance, I can now definitely state that self-editing is _*not*_ my forte.) Hopefully I've been able to learn from earlier mistakes, such that I keep improving my craft with each successive book.

As to Bookbub, it hasn't played a huge role in my success (assuming my writing meets the definition of the word). As part of my plan, I didn't even want to attempt a Bookbub ad until I had at least three books in a series, so that's what I did. I was lucky enough to get accepted the first time I applied (for a promo on the first book in my more popular series), and I timed it to occur shortly after the release of the third book. The subsequent sales were truly huge - Book 1 went to #266 in the paid Kindle store - but it didn't last long. Within about a week or so I was back to selling at my pre-Bookbub numbers (which were, thankfully, still respectable). In short, Bookbub is definitely a powerful tool and can provide an incredible boost, but I don't think it's a prerequisite for success.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

2012 was my first year full time. After making $18K the last end of 2011, I was cautiously optimistic about the future, hoping to quit within a few years. And then my principal called me into her office and made it clear to me that continuing to work at my job would be incredibly unpleasant.

So, I quit.

And I've been supporting myself with my writing ever since. Every bill that I've paid has come directly from my books. I don't make crazy money. In fact, I make about the same as I did when I was a teacher. My income tends to fluctuate wildly, but I always manage to pull in enough to stay afloat.

Truthfully, I doubt it could have happened any other way. I'm a very risk averse person, and I'm not sure *any* amount of money would have convinced me it was safe to leave my job. Being pushed out the door has enabled me to write so many more books than I would have had time for otherwise. So, I'm glad it happened.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

valeriec80 said:


> 2012 was my first year full time. After making $18K the last end of 2011, I was cautiously optimistic about the future, hoping to quit within a few years. And then my principal called me into her office and made it clear to me that continuing to work at my job would be incredibly unpleasant.
> 
> So, I quit.


Please tell me you took a photo of the expression on her face when that happened.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

D-to-the-C said:


> The market has changed. It changes every time something big happens, like free being split from best sellers lists (boom time for indies), KU 1 and KU 2, Scribd ditching romance etc. What I did in Feb 2014 probably wouldn't work if I started out new today, but that isn't to say there are more opportunities, there are! it's about finding what works for you, and that requires trial and error. You need to f*ck up, to know where not to spend your efforts. I read a comment from a very successful indie author basically saying, she had no freakin' idea how to launch a career today, because back when she started, the market was so very different. Newbies, you need to grab the market by the balls today, not worry about what could have happened had you started a few years earlier.


This is exactly how I feel about it. A few people nail it right out of the gate. For others, the information in this forum and on various blogs etc. can compress the learning curve immensely. For the most part, though, it's about trying and failing and trying and failing until you stumble your way toward goodness.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Rosalind James said:


> And I'm really only able to have a story I care about come into my head. Nothing else will even arrive, much less live in there. So I'm basically stuck with my wheat farmers and so forth.


Really needed to read this today, Rosalind. Thank you.


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## Dobby the House Elf (Aug 16, 2014)

I was around when he asked that question. I think I had 1-2 books out then, had hardly made anything. I have 7 books published now. I have hit 4 figures a month for the past 7 months, I support myself and the majority of finances for my household. I write Epic Fantasy. I'm still writing in the fantasy world I was writing in then. My fiction is not typical. Mine has been a slow build up, with an ongoing steady income and growth.


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> $250 from the ground up in two months is outstanding. Many (MANY) new authors struggle to sell a book a week. Gaining that visibility early on is the hardest part. A robust release schedule will definitely help with that, and if you're making $250 a month just two months in, and you follow through on that release schedule, I foresee good things for your future. Courtney Milan did a great post a couple years back (maybe it was last year? Gah. Brain fart) about levels of visibility. I don't recall them, precisely, but I do remember her saying something along the lines of, "It's way harder to go from selling 0 books a month to 500 books a month than it is to go from selling 500 books a month to selling thousands." I concur. Getting the ball rolling is the hardest part. Once it's in motion, you just gotta keep pushing to help out that momentum.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to say that because you're shortchanging yourself. There are people who have been on this board for years who would kill to be selling more than one copy a day in their first two months, so good on ya! *high fives*


Thank You! This makes me feel really good - and I will say, From your lips(fingers) to Bezos ears.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> _Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis_
> 
> (I'm not trying to be ponsy, I just think it sounds nice in Latin  ). It basically means: Times change, and we change with the times.


I've just added this to my chalkboard of inspiration!

And for the record, I think your steady income is worth way more than epic Bookbub months followed by middling to poor sales. This has happened to me several time, and it can make things very tough.


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## Lunachick (Jan 2, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Hi Kerrie. In the late 1980s, I wrote a bunch of short stories, which were never published. Life happened, jobs, kids, wives, ex-wives, and so on. So, I gave it up. I've done a good bit of traveling, around the world in the Corps and around the Caribbean after that. It never took much prodding for me to launch into a "sea story." That's what Marines call a tall tale of adventure. My wife found part of a short story manuscript, hand written on the back of my divorce papers from my first wife and prodded me to try writing a novel. That was two years ago, last month.
> 
> So, between the failed short stories in the 80s and the beginning of my first novel, Fallen Palm, in June of 2013, I didn't write anything.


Thanks Wayne, I've had a similar path (without wives or Marine Corps ) but I've been struggling a bit with confidence from having such a long layoff from writing. Your story gives me hope, so thanks again.

Kerrie


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## KerryT2012 (Dec 18, 2012)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I remember reading Hugh's original post but I don't think it was until June of 2014 that I saw it. At the time, I was making the vast majority of my income through my publishers and was squeaking out a mortgage payment through self-pubbing, hoping I could eventually move 100 books a day on my own. Now, just over a year later, I'm moving 500+ books a day and making app. 50k a month between two pen names. Hubs was able to leave his day job in September and handle a lot of the day to day bookkeeping etc, I've hired someone part time to handle my marketing, and I'm hoping that next year will be our first seven-figure year. *fingers crossed*


How did you find someone you can trust to do the marketing?


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## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm one of those authors struggling to sell a book a week. (Might be a combo of YA being too large a market to get noticed, plus one of my books is with a publisher and the companion novel is indie -- making marketing tough.) But this thread as well as the original is what gives me hope that if I keep writing, I'll make a living this way and start contributing to my family's finances -- and maybe we'll get to take the kids places.


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## Sheluvspink (May 14, 2014)

Sela said:


> Your covers are awesome and your story sounds great! No wonder you are rocking it.  I just downloaded your first book. Congrats!


Yay!

Thank you so much


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Sarwah2012 said:


> How did you find someone you can trust to do the marketing?


I hired my cousin and trained her 
With the amount I spend on advertising (six figures a year), I couldn't bring myself to hand that over to a stranger to manage virtually without feeling like I needed to check on everything they did (which defeats the purpose). I need someone who feels invested in the success of my books and who I can tell what to do, how to do it, and then turn my back to write for a few days and know I'm in good hands. She's like my sister, and she has more integrity than anyone I know, so it was a no brainer. It took about two months of training, but she's got it on lock now. We have a ten minute phone meeting in the morning as we go over the ROI #'s from the previous day's sales that she enters into a google doc (based off affiliate #'s and other metrics that we've established as educated estimates) and then we go on with our days. She'll work up new ad concepts or tweak our existing campaigns to lower our oCPCs if needed, or she'll research new interests to target. I have a Shutterstock subscription that she manages so she'll create lightboxes for upcoming books with pics she wants me to look through etc. And while she's doing that, I write, edit, etc. etc.

I pay her a small retainer ($1,000 a month) plus the affiliate $ for all ads that she creates (which is another couple thousand a month) and then I drop bonuses on her when she does something really fabulous. For example, she pushed me into marketing to Australian readers with one particular box set and I was hesitant, but the ROI on those ads was almost 300%. Australia doesn't have a affiliate program so she didn't make extra there, so I sent her a neat little bonus check. I also try to go to where she lives a couple times a month, take her to dinner, facials, that type of thing. It's been great for both of us.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

So you have to do a lot of marketing to make it?  I guess I should have also asked that in the beginning... how much advertising and marketing everyone does to earn what they do.  I guess it's not as "easy" as writing a book and clicking the publish button....


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

No, you don't HAVE to do a lot of marketing, necessarily. I just know for me personally it was the thing that took sales from like 100-150 sales a day to 500+ sales a day. But I made a good living before I did any major marketing and know lots of authors who still do.


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> No, you don't HAVE to do a lot of marketing, necessarily. I just know for me personally it was the thing that took sales from like 100-150 sales a day to 500+ sales a day. But I made a good living before I did any major marketing and know lots of authors who still do.


Oh good to know! I have two very young children and I get about 2 hours a day free time. Don't think I need to worry about getting 500+ sales any time soon. I'd be happy with 1 after I click publish (although I'd like more of course!)


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## Miss Ross (Oct 10, 2014)

I published my first book at the end of 2012 and sold one copy that first month (to myself). I released my 3rd book earlier this year (I'm one of those fast writers/slow publishers). Up until a few months ago, though I was selling books consistently each month, I was making just about enough to pay the light bill.

Since spring of this year, I've been consistently making four figures every month, each month higher than the last. I plan to release two more books later this year, so I hope to see those four figures continue their upward climb.

I can honestly say the turnaround for me was making one of my books permafree. Sales on my other two books tripled almost overnight and reviews for all three (positive) exploded. I have one book in Select/KU and over 100,000 pages read on that one book, which I know is peanuts for some, but a victory for me. I also write standalones, if that gives anyone else hope (I believe branding my covers to look the same has helped). I know permafree is one of those "works for some, doesn't work for others," strategies, but for me, making that book permafree has changed the trajectory of my career. I haven't done any paid advertising, though a BookBub is on the wish list. Social media, word of mouth and yes, permafree, have been my marketing tools.

This business is exciting, scary, hard and all-consuming, but to have the opportunity to build something from scratch and see where it takes you is amazing.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

rjspears said:


> I'm both inspired and depressed by all the positive posts. I've been at this since 2013 and I'm not close to earning $500 a month. Not even in the ballpark.
> 
> I think I picked the wrong genre at the wrong time. I'm working to change that. Thanks for letting me see what is possible.


In my experience, genre can make all the difference. It took me about a year and a half of experimenting with different genres until I found what worked for me. (A particular genre of romance.) That made the difference from me earning $3,000 a month to me earning $28,000 a month. (Well, it goes up and down, but since then it's never gone below $12000.) I was the same writer, same style of story-telling, etc. - it was all about finding a genre with a very hungry audience, studying that genre's bestsellers, and that genre's covers, and blurbs, and writing to market. Don't give up - just keep trying and experimenting until something clicks!


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## KatrinaAbbott (Jan 28, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> I'm convinced that my lack of appeal to Bookbub is the reason that I don't earn big bucks
> 
> No, I've never been able to get a bookbub, which I think is why my growth was pretty slow, but it was very consistent. Each book I put out moves me up a little bit. I don't have big highs and lows or amazing months and terrible months. I have a pretty reliable ball park figure every month which pays our mortgage and our bills, but not much else. I joke with my husband (who has now gone part time and helps me with child care) that his income is our "spending money". Mine covers our outgoings and his covers our fun.
> 
> ...


I'm right there with you. I started this in January 2014 with one book and have been releasing regularly and am set to release my 8th book in the series (YA Rom Com) next month. My sales are good and are building steadily with each book, but if BookBub was to feature me, I think I would be way further along. From what I've observed and learned, I think I'm doing everything right in writing a series that people like and am promoting where I can, but really could use that BB push.
That said, I'm happily making okay money - consistently above the $500 per month but not quite enough to be full-time without a lot of worry and life adjustments (like cutting out eating, which I could use to do, but the kids and husband frown upon the idea).

This is a really inspiring thread and I love reading about all the successes around here. Keep your stories coming!


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Chrisbwritin said:


> No, you don't HAVE to do a lot of marketing, necessarily. I just know for me personally it was the thing that took sales from like 100-150 sales a day to 500+ sales a day. But I made a good living before I did any major marketing and know lots of authors who still do.


Chris,
You know what would be cool? ...if you started a thread on Virtual Assistants, and gave us a list of all the things she does. I know you're busy, but I don't think there ever been a complete list posted like that. It would be very helpful for those of us considering a VA once we get to that point.

Even something bare bones like:

FaceBook Targeting Ads
Promo banners
ARC distribution
Schedule outsourced ads
Etc...

I know you're very busy, but maybe your VA could scratch out a fast list?


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Chris,
> You know what would be cool? ...if you started a thread on Virtual Assistants, and gave us a list of all the things she does. I know you're busy, but I don't think there ever been a complete list posted like that. It would be very helpful for those of us considering a VA once we get to that point.
> 
> Even something bare bones like:
> ...


I'd be happy to do that, but actually, she's not really a VA. She strictly does direct marketing stuff (via FB ads, Twitter, and just starting on Adwords). I can definitely create a thread on what she does for me, though, if you think that would be of value. With regard to the other stuff, my husband is a full time employee of the business and does most of the administrative stuff (like ARC team management, banking, bookkeeping, scheduling etc.) plus makes coffee and sushi runs and does all the laundry  Which makes him my MVP.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Miss Ross said:


> I published my first book at the end of 2012 and sold one copy that first month (to myself). I released my 3rd book earlier this year (I'm one of those fast writers/slow publishers). Up until a few months ago, though I was selling books consistently each month, I was making just about enough to pay the light bill.
> 
> Since spring of this year, I've been consistently making four figures every month, each month higher than the last. I plan to release two more books later this year, so I hope to see those four figures continue their upward climb.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing Miss Ross.

Can I ask if the permafree that made the difference was the first of the trilogy you mentioned?

I'm thinking of having book one permafree in my upcoming trilogy, and the other two in select.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I'd be happy to do that, but actually, she's not really a VA. She strictly does direct marketing stuff (via FB ads, Twitter, and just starting on Adwords). I can definitely create a thread on what she does for me, though, if you think that would be of value. With regard to the other stuff, my husband is a full time employee of the business and does most of the administrative stuff (like ARC team management, banking, bookkeeping, scheduling etc.) plus makes coffee and sushi runs and does all the laundry  Which makes him my MVP.


/SorryForDerailment

Yes! I know many peeps who'd love this list! Maybe you could break it out between what your Marketing Asst, and your MVP ( ) does.


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## Miss Ross (Oct 10, 2014)

B. Yard said:


> Thanks for sharing Miss Ross.
> 
> Can I ask if the permafree that made the difference was the first of the trilogy you mentioned?
> 
> I'm thinking of having book one permafree in my upcoming trilogy, and the other two in select.


Since I write standalones and not a series or trilogy, my books can be read in any order, so that wasn't a factor for me. I made my worst-selling book with the best reviews permafree (my book with the worst reviews has always been my bestselling book by a mile. Go figure). I figured I wasn't making any money on it anyway, so I wasn't losing anything by making it permafree. It was a gamble that has paid off.

So the current mix I have with three standalone books is one book permafree on all platforms, one book full price on all platforms and one book in Select at full price. I just re-upped the one book already in Select for one more term, until my next release, which will go into Select and the current Select book will go wide when its term is up. The current strategy is to always have at least one book in Select, though, that could change.

I know a lot of folks advise making the first book in a series/trilogy permafree, as it acts like a funnel to other books in the series, so I would say give it a whirl for your trilogy and see what happens!


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Miss Ross said:


> Since I write standalones and not a series or trilogy, my books can be read in any order, so that wasn't a factor for me. I made my worst-selling book with the best reviews permafree (my book with the worst reviews has always been my bestselling book by a mile. Go figure). I figured I wasn't making any money on it anyway, so I wasn't losing anything by making it permafree. It was a gamble that has paid off.
> 
> So the current mix I have with three standalone books is one book permafree on all platforms, one book full price on all platforms and one book in Select at full price. I just re-upped the one book already in Select for one more term, until my next release, which will go into Select and the current Select book will go wide when its term is up. The current strategy is to always have at least one book in Select, though, that could change.
> 
> I know a lot of folks advise making the first book in a series/trilogy permafree, as it acts like a funnel to other books in the series, so I would say give it a whirl for your trilogy and see what happens!


Thanks for the clarification, and great work on those pages reads! I hope it continues to grow for you.


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## m.a. petterson (Sep 11, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> It was pretty satisfying, I must admit. I'd already planned on quitting six weeks after that fateful day, anyway. Writing income had at the time, replaced driving income. I posted on here for ideas on just how to quit in an epic fashion. I forget who suggested it, but someone said I should hire a limo and pull up in the truck yard when the boss was outside being a jerk, buzz the back window down, lower my sunglasses and say, "I'm needed elsewhere." Then just buzz the window back up and drive away.
> 
> I was really considering that. Sounded like great fun and a frivolous waste of money. Oh, and recording it of course. From multiple camera angles.


You would've made another sackful of money if you'd put the vid on youtube.

And you left out the police motorcycle escort and the black helicopter hovering above.


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## Miss Ross (Oct 10, 2014)

B. Yard said:


> Thanks for the clarification, and great work on those pages reads! I hope it continues to grow for you.


Thanks, B. Yard and you're welcome


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

tashamoon said:


> So you have to do a lot of marketing to make it? I guess I should have also asked that in the beginning... how much advertising and marketing everyone does to earn what they do. I guess it's not as "easy" as writing a book and clicking the publish button....


I didn't do any marketing when I had my first success - and I still hardly do any, ever. The occasional bookbub is about it. I do have a newsletter, but at the time that my first book became a hit, I had maybe a few dozen people on that list. I post on Facebook now that I have a decent amount of fans, I very occasionally tweet, once every six months I remember to do Bookbub.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> With the amount I spend on advertising (six figures a year)


Where does one spend that much on advertising ? 

Billboard street signs? TV commercials?


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

I know it seems nutty, but I have 50+ books, the priciest of which we run literally dozens of FB ads for to the tune of $500-600 a day (although yesterday was $624 because we were trying some new stuff, so we need to do some pruning) and then a bookbub each month which averages around $500 a month depending of the genre. Other than that, it's just little stuff, Twitter here or there, bknights, and now trying adwords. Keeping in mind, between all vendors, our daily gross revenue is high so that marketing spend represents less than 30% of the business income and is directly responsible for a large portion of sales. 

At least, that's what I remind myself when I see how much we've spent this year and start to throw up in my mouth >.<


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

It definitely fluctuates depending on what's going on in the business. I had it up to low four figures. Then KU2 happened and I write short erotica. I took some stories wide in June, but didn't have an audience on other sites, so I'm only just starting to make some consistent sales on D2D. This month I only made around 600 in sales from all sites combined, plus whatever I earned in KU. If half a cent a page is right that's around 150. I think I will rebound and have it back up to low four figures by the end of September, though.


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## edwardgtalbot (Apr 28, 2010)

Chrisbwritin said:


> At least, that's what I remind myself when I see how much we've spent this year and start to throw up in my mouth >.<


If you're A) making a lot more than you're spending and b) have reason to believe the ads are overall netting you positive RoI and are methodical enough to not be blindly throwing money without evaluating (and it sounds like you certainly are)

then not only should you not be throwing up in your mouth, you should be darn proud of what you've accomplished!


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## goneaway (Jul 23, 2015)

edwardgtalbot said:


> then not only should you not be throwing up in your mouth, you should be darn proud of what you've accomplished!


Agreed! I'm amazed every time I see you post chrisbwritin! I can only dream...


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

tashamoon said:


> Agreed! I'm amazed every time I see you post chrisbwritin! I can only dream...


Yes, for sure. It also brings home to me how helpful it is for a self-publishing writer to have a strong mind for business. And that thought makes me realize how unlikely it is that a publishing company -- even a major one filled with business/marketing people -- would dedicate so much time and individual attention to managing and marketing chrisbwritin's books.

Honestly, those who disparage self-publishing really have no idea how sophisticated it can be, at the highest levels. Or how effective.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I know it seems nutty, but I have 50+ books, the priciest of which we run literally dozens of FB ads for to the tune of $500-600 a day (although yesterday was $624 because we were trying some new stuff, so we need to do some pruning) and then a bookbub each month which averages around $500 a month depending of the genre. Other than that, it's just little stuff, Twitter here or there, bknights, and now trying adwords. Keeping in mind, between all vendors, our daily gross revenue is high so that marketing spend represents less than 30% of the business income and is directly responsible for a large portion of sales.
> 
> At least, that's what I remind myself when I see how much we've spent this year and start to throw up in my mouth >.<


OK makes more sense!

Can I ask what is the average page count of the 50 + books?

So you definitely believe FB ads work? For sales, or mailing list?


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> OK makes more sense!
> 
> Can I ask what is the average page count of the 50 + books?
> 
> So you definitely believe FB ads work? For sales, or mailing list?


The average page count on my self-pubbed books is around 75 pages but the books I advertise for are my box sets, which clock in anywhere from 275 to 450 or so pages. They sell for 4.99 or 5.99 depending on which series and a large portion of my sales are in the UK so I market there hard.

With regard to FB ads, yes. There is no question in my mind that, if you have a marketable product (especially in romance or thriller genres) that is packaged well and you put the time (LOTS OF TIME) into learning how FB ads work and how to optimize them (or pay someone to do it for you like I do now) then they can be an absolute juggernaut.

I would post a pic of my dashboard before ads and after ads if I knew how to post a flipping picture on this board (and if anyone wants to either give me easy directions on how or post it for me, I'd still be happy to do that!)

With regard to how I use them, I don't use them for mailing list sign-ups at all. I only spend a dollar when I feel that I will get $1 and then some back in return (immediately). I don't promote free books, or .99 books either. I have tried free book ads in the past, and while I know many authors do well with them, I found for the amount I was spending and the projected sell-through I was better off spending that money paid book ads and other less expensive venues to promote my freebies (like bknights and the loads of other places to list freebies). I DO plan to do mailing list ads, but I haven't had the time to set up a proper squeeze page or a starter book collection etc. to encourage sign ups. Even then, I imagine I will only spend $10 or $20 a day on that to conserve my ad budget for direct sales.

And thanks for all the votes of confidence, everyone. This time last year I was only spending about $1,000 a MONTH on marketing, so it's still surreal and takes some getting used to, even when you see the results. It's worth it, but still scary at points, lol!


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Yes, for sure. It also brings home to me how helpful it is for a self-publishing writer to have a strong mind for business. And that thought makes me realize how unlikely it is that a publishing company -- even a major one filled with business/marketing people -- would dedicate so much time and individual attention to managing and marketing chrisbwritin's books.


They never would, Becca. Never. They simply don't have the man power or the money to do that for every author. Or even ANY author, never mind a mid-lister like me. For my books alone, with everything that needs to be done to keep the business growing, it's three full time jobs (and when I say full time, at least two of those jobs are 70+ hour work weeks). And for most authors who REALLY hit it big, like Marie Force and co., it's an even bigger team. I think at that point, you have no choice but to delegate if you want to have any kind of a life but want your business to continue to thrive and grow.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> The average page count on my self-pubbed books is around 75 pages but the books I advertise for are my box sets, which clock in anywhere from 275 to 450 or so pages. They sell for 4.99 or 5.99 depending on which series and a large portion of my sales are in the UK so I market there hard.
> 
> With regard to FB ads, yes. There is no question in my mind that, if you have a marketable product (especially in romance or thriller genres) that is packaged well and you put the time (LOTS OF TIME) into learning how FB ads work and how to optimize them (or pay someone to do it for you like I do now) then they can be an absolute juggernaut.
> 
> ...


Thanks for response!


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## Violet Haze (Jan 9, 2014)

I am in the romance genre. I can't afford to pay someone to market for me, so I've been trying to do FB ads myself, and it's just not going well. Everything I try to find on FB ads has some general info, but pay now to get more! Which, if I had enough to spare to pay $500 for advice...I wouldn't need it.  Lol.That is absolutely amazing though. I won't advertise things that won't bring a return either. I guess figuring out how to target best is my biggest goal.



Chrisbwritin said:


> The average page count on my self-pubbed books is around 75 pages but the books I advertise for are my box sets, which clock in anywhere from 275 to 450 or so pages. They sell for 4.99 or 5.99 depending on which series and a large portion of my sales are in the UK so I market there hard.
> 
> With regard to FB ads, yes. There is no question in my mind that, if you have a marketable product (especially in romance or thriller genres) that is packaged well and you put the time (LOTS OF TIME) into learning how FB ads work and how to optimize them (or pay someone to do it for you like I do now) then they can be an absolute juggernaut.
> 
> ...


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

Chrisbwritin said:


> I would post a pic of my dashboard before ads and after ads if I knew how to post a flipping picture on this board (and if anyone wants to either give me easy directions on how or post it for me, I'd still be happy to do that!)


1. Right click the picture you want to share.
2. Click "Copy Image Url"
3. Click the button in Kboards editor that looks like a tiny Mona Lisa. It is on the second row, second button from the left, directly to the right of the Youtube icon.








4. Control+V or right click, paste. (Looks like this: https://i.gyazo.com/3de73c40460748319ced8c8dd6bf31f9.png)
5. Preview to be sure it shows up properly. That should be it.


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## Dalia Daudelin (Jul 11, 2014)

I am still making a living. KU2 tried to screw me over, but I'm not letting it. Once all of my books are back on other websites and I go back to writing new stuff again, I'll be fine. Probably by the end of this month, but uploading to other sites is... taking longer than expected tbh.


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## Shei Darksbane (Jan 31, 2015)

What truly floors me is that I could actually respond to this thread at this point.
(Book report just had to punctuate my typing that line with a "Cha-ching!".)

My wife, Anna, found Hugh's 2012 thread in January this year. She showed me the thread after showing me the first draft of the first chapter of her first book (which is now with betas). The numbers there dropped my jaw, floored me outright, and gave me a spark of hope that we could make a living as authors if we wrote enough books. A living to us would be something to the tune of a thousand a month for a solid start. So we felt like we weren't aiming too high, right? Maybe within a couple of years we could do that.

I published _Awakened_ 10 days ago. I've already grossed $520 and today isn't over. Today will end my first "month" in terms of KDP payouts, but it's only a third of a month worth of earnings. I keep pinching myself.

Seriously, I have a huge case of imposter syndrome. "Surely this isn't happening. Surely, all my friends and family have bought my book by now and no one else is going to... Surely these can't be a bunch of random people who don't know me. Surely?"
I keep trying to defeat that thinking because I consider it poison.
I'm doing my best to keep from believing that it's not real.
I don't even have as many friends and family as the sales I've made. Not by half. It can't just be that.

Which means I'm actually selling well. I'm out the gate... running. Right?
If this pattern holds... I'd make four figures in my first full month, first book ever.

I have sold over 120 copies of Awakened, and over 50,000 pages have been read. I'm dreaming. Right?
Book two comes out in two weeks... to help push those sales and keep the momentum going.
I will release another book I co-authored with my wife three weeks after that. Then hopefully keep that pattern going.

I'm not crazy am I? Maybe I've gotten my math wrong somewhere. Surely... something...

That I could post in this thread in my first month is insane to me.
I feel like I cheated somehow. Like it can't be real.

I want to add the   to my profile. But I'm terrified that none of this is real.
And I'd have to take it down. Someone would shout "Hey, you're an imposter! You can't have that badge!"
But I'm selling 10+ copies a day plus thousands of pages read.

It's just because it's a new release, right?
I mean, that's what the new release algo does, right?

Still fighting that voice as I finish the revisions for book two.

There's a reason I never stop saying thank you on these boards. You guys have helped me and my wife to stumble onto something that will-- no. That *is* changing our life, even now.

I'm just... wow'd.
Thank you isn't remotely enough.


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## AveryCockburn (Jul 5, 2015)

Congrats, Shei! Sounds like you're off to an amazing start. It's true that new releases have a special magic, but from what little I know, yours is much better than average. And your second release will only build on that momentum.

I'm so happy to hear this is changing your life. Have yourself a great weekend!


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for the lesson, Shei! Hope this works. I have a Mac, so there's no right click. Also, I ended up having to use Book Report to go back far enough to get a pre-ads example because dashboard looks like it only goes back 90 days. Above is Nov 30-Dec, pre-marketing efforts, and below is June 30-July 30 (which, incidentally, is slower than say April or May). Naturally, this is only for my self-pubbed books through KDP and doesn't include other vendor income, or my advertising spend (which is min. $500 a day). In any case, it's a good if not complete representation of the difference advertising can make.


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## JRHolmes (Mar 6, 2014)

Chrisbwritin said:


> Thanks for the lesson, Shei! Hope this works. I have a Mac, so there's no right click.


A brief dip into Macanalia: On a Mac the right-click is referred to as a Secondary click. It is CTRL-click with a mouse or trackpad. If you go into your Trackpad settings, there are some convenient shortcuts you can turn on that do that as well (I like to use the two-finger tap).

If you really want to get into such things, just get a two (or three with a scroll wheel) mouse. When plugged in the Mac is perfectly happy to use what that mouse offers.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

JRHolmes said:


> A brief dip into Macanalia: On a Mac the right-click is referred to as a Secondary click. It is CTRL-click with a mouse or trackpad. If you go into your Trackpad settings, there are some convenient shortcuts you can turn on that do that as well (I like to use the two-finger tap).
> 
> If you really want to get into such things, just get a two (or three with a scroll wheel) mouse. When plugged in the Mac is perfectly happy to use what that mouse offers.


I've only had mine for a short while but I love it. Thanks for the tips!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm still here and doing WAY better now than in 2012. With fewer titles published even than I had then, I think.  Apparently I was averaging 400 a month back then (it got worse even in late 2012/2013/2014 ha). This year so far I think I'm averaging close to 30k a month. Big change, I'd say.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Chrisbwritin said:


> Thanks for the lesson, Shei! Hope this works. I have a Mac, so there's no right click. Also, I ended up having to use Book Report to go back far enough to get a pre-ads example because dashboard looks like it only goes back 90 days. Above is Nov 30-Dec, pre-marketing efforts, and below is June 30-July 30 (which, incidentally, is slower than say April or May). Naturally, this is only for my self-pubbed books through KDP and doesn't include other vendor income, or my advertising spend (which is min. $500 a day). In any case, it's a good if not complete representation of the difference advertising can make.


Chris, I can attest to the power of advertising as well. Here's my before and after. Like you, this doesn't include other vendors.

Before I started to advertise, March 9 to April 8:



After I started to advertise, April 9 - May 8:



Hard to argue with results...

Mark Dawson's free course and his paid course were a godsend to me.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Amazing, Sela! Great result. *high fives*


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## Clementine (Jun 12, 2015)

These numbers are making me feel faint. Where are my smelling salts?

Congrats, Shei, on a great run right out of the gate. I really hope that it just snowballs from here. It's exciting for a total prawn to see another one take off. 

And big thanks to Chris, Sela, Annie, etc. for sharing these numbers. It's a level of success that I can't fathom, but it's pretty thrilling to see people out there pulling it off. I like to pretend that if I was in your place I would wake up and immediately start drinking champagne each morning, followed by a hot stone massage, but I'm guessing that in real life there's a whole lot more work being done than relaxing. You guys are awesome for all of the hard work that you're putting in.


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## JessHayek69 (Jul 4, 2015)

Sela said:


> Chris, I can attest to the power of advertising as well. Here's my before and after. Like you, this doesn't include other vendors.
> 
> Before I started to advertise, March 9 to April 8:
> 
> ...


Sela,

How much of the 20K was spent on advertising? (What was your actual profit)


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

Not only am I still earning a (good) full-time living, but I just hired my husband to come work for me full-time, too. And we just moved to an island. Things are going swimmingly.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

Ahh, El, did you rebrand your series?? I love the covers!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

JessHayek69 said:


> Sela,
> 
> How much of the 20K was spent on advertising? (What was your actual profit)


I spent $3360 ($112 / day average) and made a 276% ROI ($9269.26 profit). That includes some money spent promoting several Facebook pages and so the ROI on the ads would be higher but I don't have the time right now to break out those other advertising costs. I think my ROI for the straight paid ads for books would be closer to 300%+.

It's insane, I know. Thanks to Mark Dawson or I wouldn't have tried paid ads for my boxed sets. Those ads not only sold the boxed sets, but also other books via extra visibility.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

KU whacked my earnings pretty hard, but I'm still well over the $500 mark of this post.  It hasn't helped that it's been three months since I published anything. Life issues have kept me away from the keyboard, but I'm back writing again.  I hadn't begun in 2012.


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