# Boxed Set Scams



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

In this episode five authors relate the latest "learning" experience they had when they joined in with paid (in KU) multi-author boxed sets. Despite copious contracts and legalise, they were screwed. No names or titles are given to protect the guilty in order to prevent the usual lawsuits etc.

Watch the episode and make notes on how NOT to get screwed.






EDIT: Added episode summary


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## Abalone (Jan 31, 2014)

That feedback is annoying. What were the clifs for this episode?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Would appreciate if you could give some sort of summary. SPRT refuses to download on my podcast app.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

That episode is hard to listen to. I stopped listening to their podcasts a few months ago.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

BellaJames said:


> That episode is hard to listen to. I stopped listening to their podcasts a few months ago.


The audio quality sucks ass, but the information is very relevant in this day of burgeoning multi-author boxed sets in KU.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> The audio quality sucks ass, but the information is very relevant in this day of burgeoning multi-author boxed sets in KU.


Thanks Mark. No disrespect, I just didn't enjoy listening to their shows anymore.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

BellaJames said:


> Thanks Mark. No disrespect, I just didn't enjoy listening to their shows anymore.


I'm not affiliated etc. I just watched the episode and thought it worth sharing.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I'm not affiliated etc. I just watched the episode and thought it worth sharing.


I've skipped forward a little and the audio gets better. Thanks for posting Mark, this will be useful to many authors.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2016)

They have some show notes up on their site: http://selfpublishingroundtable.com/sprt-166-you-have-been-scammed/ (it also gives a rough outline of the episode, for easier skipping around)


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Summary--several authors got into a scammed book box set from a previously-reputable author who flaked and took off with the money. Lesson learned--be careful who you give out your SSN and  financial details to and be careful who you do business with. No names were names which I sorta get, but on the other hand, if there are scammers out there getting away with thousands of dollars, and there's a paper trail and proof, name those scummers so that other writers don't get caught.


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## 31842 (Jan 11, 2011)

Self Publishing Round Table just came out with a really important group interview of authors who have participated in boxed sets and have also been scammed by the organizers. SPRT mentions it in their official thread, but I feel this is an important enough issue that it should be pulled out and highlighted. If you're interested in participating in boxed sets, you might want to give it a listen. There's some red flags to tuck into the back of your brain.





http://selfpublishingroundtable.com/sprt-166-you-have-been-scammed/

I'm hearing more and more from people who are involved in boxed sets that have had things go pretty skeevy pretty quick. Watch your back, kiddos.

ETA: There's some sound issues, but they kick back into gear at minute 18:00.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up, Kate.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

There's already a topic on this:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,243297.msg3390034.html#msg3390034


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

threads on same topic merged . .. . sorry for any confusion.


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

The short version for those who cannot listen to/watch the podcast:

The boxset organizer in question didn't just scam one group of others, but at least four so at least FORTY authors. The total amount she stole can't even be calculated because one boxset's participants were never provided with sales/page read data. The estimated total from the last set of reports sent to the other published boxsets is over $35,000.

Yes, she's still around.

She is likely still planning on doing this again if the FBI doesn't catch up to her first.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Scary stuff, and no warning signs until it's too late.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

This episode of SPRT is a caution for authors considering going into boxed sets with other authors.

ETA: I don't know if what happened was a "scam," as in the person _intended_ to take the money and run, although I could be wrong. It seemed like this was an established author, an author known in the community, rather than a scammer who entered into the boxed set with the design of ripping other authors off. What happened, I have no idea. There are claims that the author has suffered a serious illness and that is the reason for the lack of payment.  Yikes, I just read a new post in this thread and it seems like this was not just a one-off but involved several boxed sets potentially work tens of thousands of dollars...

I was in a boxed set where the author who used their account to host the set and who acted as banker ran into some "personal problems" and held onto the money from the boxed set for a few extra months. She was a friend to many of us so we were patient, but then she finally paid us a few months down the road. It wasn't a big sum, but still, it was a concern to the rest of us. I suspect she had some money problems and the Amazon money from our book landed in her bank account and was spent before she could distribute it. It all worked out in the end, but I have not gone into a boxed set promotion since.

The upshot is that when you consider going into a boxed set, make sure you have a clear contract signed between members and clear specification on how the money will be distributed and when, what the costs will be, etc, and someone reliable to take care of the money side of things. When I ran my boxed set (a paranormal romance set with 8 authors back in 2014) I had a separate Amazon account and gave everyone the username and password so they could see stats on a daily basis so there was total transparency about sales and payment. I know we're not supposed to have two Amazon accounts, but I made this one specifically for the boxed set, not knowing it wasn't allowed. I cleared it with my Amazon rep when we published so it was okay. Then, I used Paypal to pay everyone.

May the author beware.


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

sela said:


> This episode of SPRT is a caution for authors considering going into boxed sets with other authors.
> 
> I don't know if what happened was a "scam," as in the person _intended_ to take the money and run, although I could be wrong. It seemed like this was an established author, an author known in the community, rather than a scammer who entered into the boxed set with the design of ripping other authors off. What happened, I have no idea. There are claims that the author has suffered a serious illness and that is the reason for the lack of payment.
> 
> ...


She's not sick. At all. She immediately posted that story once word got out that legal and criminal action was being considered.

She has not responded to any requests for information on royalties or demands for payments. She is a number of months behind for some sets and other authors never received any royalty payments at all. All authors had contracts with her LLC.


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

Sela,

I just noticed your edited post. Yes, she did this to many of us through several genres and at least two of her pen names. I'm obviously one of the authors who got ripped off, so I'm unfortunately far too familiar with this story.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Thanks for posting. VERY educational.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Wow. Sorry for those of you who got taken by this person. That has to suck big time.

I'm saying up front right now that if someone did this to me, they better know I'm gonna spread the news far and wide, and names will be named.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

If anyone knows this person's name, I'd be very grateful if it was posted. I have a very slight suspicion but don't want to say who in case I've misread the situation.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

I've been looking at box sets, realising that I am a newb but I have 2 different books that could be finished and released for that purpose.

Now I'm even more nervous about this.  Can I ask what genre?


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

KateDanley said:


> ETA: There's some sound issues, but they kick back into gear at minute 18:00.


Yes some unexpected audio issues due to one of the guests bluetooth devices. We edited out most of it from the audio download, so get that if you don't want to hear us spending a few minutes going WTF?


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I would like to know who the alleged scammer is.


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## Queen Mab (Sep 9, 2011)

I figured it out by googling multi-author box sets that came out during the summer. Paranormal romance. That's a good place to start 

I heard about it a week or two ago because a regular client of mine was affected...


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## sali19 (Dec 23, 2014)

The bundle organizer is Ruby Madden of Manifestiny Entertainment LLC. She has willfully chosen to cease all communication with the authors in her bundles and refuses to remit payments.She retains control over at least $35K in royalties from following sets:
Spring Fever 
Men Love Curves 
Portal to Passion
Hot Shifter Nights 
Bad Boys: Romance Collection

To date she has not responded to any of the authors' requests for communication, royalty statements or payment due. Furthermore, instead of opening lines of communication to repeated assurances of willingness to help with any extenuating circumstances, the box set authors were sent a generic email stating the ill health of the publisher and her intent to dismantle her publishing business. She continues to post to social media and today even advertised a new release- and again, has not responded to requests for information and payment.

We want to take this opportunity to express our wish for her good health and peace of mind, and exhort her to not allow unfortunate life circumstances to cause her to irrevocably renege on every moral and contractual agreement she has made with the people who trusted in her integrity and business practices.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy_


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Thank you for posting her name. I looked through her social media accounts, and it sends a chill down my spine to see that they are organizing more bundles. I understand that all parties signed a contract; have any of you sought the advice an attorney?


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

IANAL, but if the contract is in breach for non-payment, doesn't that mean the respective authors can revoke the use of their copyright and get the boxed sets taken down?

I mean if it's obvious they're not making any more money from the set because the person responsible seems to be intentionally screwing them over, there's no reason not to kill the revenue stream so at least the alleged scammer makes no more ill-gotten gains from it. Also it seems like that'd help poison the well, so they'd have more difficulty selling future boxed sets until/unless they resolved the problem.

In any case, best to consult with an attorney first, but it seems like there are lots of monkey wrenches that wronged authors can throw into the works.


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

Lummox JR said:


> IANAL, but if the contract is in breach for non-payment, doesn't that mean the respective authors can revoke the use of their copyright and get the boxed sets taken down?


As said in the podcast this is exactly what happened and the boxed sets have been taken down by Amazon.


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## Matt.Banks (May 5, 2016)

With boxed sets, does the set stay up for a certain amount of time or indefinitely?


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

Matt.Banks said:


> With boxed sets, does the set stay up for a certain amount of time or indefinitely?


You want something that is for a set amount of time. That's something that should be decided on up front.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Thetis said:


> Sela,
> 
> I just noticed your edited post. Yes, she did this to many of us through several genres and at least two of her pen names. I'm obviously one of the authors who got ripped off, so I'm unfortunately far too familiar with this story.


I just don't get people who do sh*t like this and then have the gonads to continue to post on social media. I admire everyone's self-control in not attacking her publicly and dogging her... I'd be outraged. Unbelievable.


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## Victoria Wright (Oct 9, 2015)

If the scammer has health issues, I suspect they would be solely of the mental variety. Very unfortunate for those involved, you all have my sympathies.


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## UnderCovers (May 8, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Thank you for posting her name. I looked through her social media accounts, and it sends a chill down my spine to see that they are organizing more bundles. I understand that all parties signed a contract; have any of you sought the advice an attorney?


Where do you see her organizing more bundles? I'd love to pass that information onto the FBI. We've been in touch with an attorney and the FBI who have opened a file on this fraud case.


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## Marseille France or Bust (Sep 25, 2012)

Yikes; and from a fellow author!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

sali19 said:


> We want to take this opportunity to express our wish for her good health and peace of mind...


Is there *verifiable evidence* proving poor health?


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

I seem to recall from another thread that there is at least one company that will handle the business side of box sets for authors. If that is actually the case, does anyone recall the name? If such a company existed and were reputable, that would seem to be the way to go, even though the company would get some of the proceeds.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

In the podcast, they identify Owl City Press as the company.


I saw on a Facebook page, a screenshot of an intake form. I think it was for audible.


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Is there *verifiable evidence* proving poor health?


No - to the contrary, there was one public social media post making rather unbelievable claims about severe illness and a limited time left to live. All subsequent posts have been happy cat pictures, announcements about upcoming releases, etc. Rather strange that new releases are being planned for someone who allegedly has only a few months left to live.

We authors never received that message or email, btw. It was only a Facebook post after we began our efforts to get the boxsets taken down and she tried to salvage her reputation even though no one had named her publicly.

Personally, I'll let the FBI handle it.


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## sali19 (Dec 23, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> Is there *verifiable evidence* proving poor health?


considering she is still writing and publishing and marketing new releases under the name [redacted], i'm not entirely certain her claims of ill health are genuine.

_Edited. Forum policy is to not out connections between pen names. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

This thread (esp. the quoted below) got lost to the depths. People on this forum need to be aware, since this person has been active here recently.



sali19 said:


> The bundle organizer is Ruby Madden of Manifestiny Entertainment LLC. She has willfully chosen to cease all communication with the authors in her bundles and refuses to remit payments.She retains control over at least $35K in royalties from following sets:
> Spring Fever
> Men Love Curves
> Portal to Passion
> ...


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## Imogen Rose (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for posting!


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

There is absolutely no reason to protect this person. The royalty amount she has not paid out is not $100 or $500 or $1,000 or $10,000. It's $35,000. So thank you for posting her name.

The beauty of a forum like Kboards is that authors can get warned of unscrupulous people who take advantage of others.



sali19 said:


> The bundle organizer is Ruby Madden of Manifestiny Entertainment LLC. She has willfully chosen to cease all communication with the authors in her bundles and refuses to remit payments.She retains control over at least $35K in royalties from following sets:
> Spring Fever
> Men Love Curves
> Portal to Passion
> ...


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

So this is the same Ruby Madden active today on the this thread: (the 113-page KU-reads-errors thread)

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.msg3417167.html#msg3417167

If so, it's pretty bold to keep posting on KBoards, and blogging.

Admins, no idea if there's anything you can do or if it's even appropriate to do so, except to try to discern the truths of this situation.

Also, as an organizer of box sets, it's very important to cordon off the profits from the set somehow. Without a strong businesslike approach, it's too easy to get caught behind and have spend money that isn't yours (I have never done this but I have seen it happen often enough).

And, FYI, I just paid out all authors for my 2016 box sets, along with providing them with the spreadsheets. Between the midyear and end-of-year payout it was more than $20K. If I hadn't cordoned off that money in the first place, it would be hard to suddenly scrape together $20K, I imagine. I managed a $30M program for the DOD for 7 years, so this is child's play to me, but for people who are cavalier about it, or who are tempted to dip in for personal use, it is a train wreck waiting to happen.

For the newbies among us, don't become afraid of box sets just because of a few problems, but do do your homework and try to work only with those who have a track record, or, barring that, with sets that represent low risk to you.

For example, permafree sets are low risk, especially if there is little or no buy-in cost. No profit means no payout means no unmet expectations.

Sets that cost you nothing up front are also lower risk. I've never charged anyone any money to get into my box sets. I take the setup costs (covers, formatting) out of the profits and ditto for promotions, which means I use my own money until it's in the black. I also set a threshold for periodic payouts. If you are concerned about your box set or whoever's running it, having regular payouts can mitigate the problems and provide confidence--that way, you get your first danger sign at first-payment time instead of at the end of the box set term.


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## HillOnLong (Oct 11, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> So this is the same Ruby Madden active today on the this thread: (the 113-page KU-reads-errors thread)
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,242225.msg3417167.html#msg3417167
> 
> ...


It is the same person and, well, there were posts calling out her behavior in that very thread but they were removed by the mods, so I guess there's your answer.


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## Atlantisatheart (Oct 8, 2016)

***********************************************************************************************
Content removed due to new owners; VerticalScope Inc. TOS Change of 2018. I received no notification of a change to TOS, was never asked to agree to their data mining or sharing of my information, including sales of my information and ownership of my posts, intellectual rights, etc, and I do not agree to the terms. 

************************************************************************************************


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

HillOnLong said:


> It is the same person and, well, there were posts calling out her behavior in that very thread but they were removed by the mods, so I guess there's your answer.


Posts removed were off topic to that thread . . . . . members are, of course, allowed to share personal experiences that will help fellow members make decisions as to who they want to do business with.

In this thread it is absolutely ON topic for those affected to share their experiences, good or bad, as regards working with Ruby, or anyone else, on a boxed set/anthology/bundle.

_We're not going to discuss moderation in this thread. Please keep on topic. If you have concerns about KB moderation, please PM Ann or me.--Betsy/KB Admin_


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## RedFoxUF (Nov 14, 2016)

Thetis said:


> No - to the contrary, there was one public social media post making rather unbelievable claims about severe illness and a limited time left to live. All subsequent posts have been happy cat pictures, announcements about upcoming releases, etc. Rather strange that new releases are being planned for someone who allegedly has only a few months left to live.
> 
> We authors never received that message or email, btw. It was only a Facebook post after we began our efforts to get the boxsets taken down and she tried to salvage her reputation even though no one had named her publicly.
> 
> Personally, I'll let the FBI handle it.


That particular thief is now on other forums trying to lure other authors in with their schtick.

There are 3 boxed set organizers that I know of who have taken the money and run in just the past month. One I contacted myself because we'd been in the same circle as we came up and they didn't respond (not even to deny the allegations)...but they are out there still taking people's money, business as usual.


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## RedFoxUF (Nov 14, 2016)

batmansero said:


> You want something that is for a set amount of time. That's something that should be decided on up front.


I always run my sets by consensus and touch base as the sales come in. So I rarely give hard expiration dates. If we are going gangbusters, it's silly to take it down just because of a contractual date obligation. Back in the stone ages, I was in a set that sold like crazy for 8 months or so. We rode that thing into the ground. Fantastic money.


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## Talbot (Jul 14, 2015)

Very glad I've only gone into free boxed sets so far. This entire thread makes me want to cross them off my promo list for good.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2016)

Just a bit of general advice to anyone who ever considering publishing the work of others (either in boxed sets, traditional publisher/author deals, or royalty splits).

The best piece of business advice I ever got came from my old Kirby distributor. Pay your people FIRST, your bills SECOND, and yourself last. If you do this, you will never get in trouble with money.

This requires a certain amount of discipline and planning. it requires not spending every dime that Amazon deposits in your account every month in the event you have unexpected bills that come up suddenly. It requires not spending "future sales" by promising to pay someone in the future for work being done today. I've talked to so many authors (and wannabe publishers) who get in trouble because they spend every dime they get and then have nothing to pay their people.

Because this is the thing: You have to pay your company bills (which includes paying your people) first. The only thing you are "entitled to" is the profit left over. If you can't pay your _personal bills_ on your publishing profits,_ then you need to get a regular job until you can. _ But what you DON'T do is take money that rightfully belongs to other people and use it to pay for your personal expenses. if you NEED to keep other people's money to pay YOUR bills, you have no business pretending you are a publisher.


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## VictoriaStrauss (Sep 8, 2013)

Writer Beware would like to hear from any authors who've been involved in scams like this. I haven't heard much about this issue, but it sounds as if it's something authors definitely need to be aware of. All information shared with Writer Beware is held in confidence. You can reach me at beware [at] sfwa.org

Thanks!

- Victoria Strauss
Co-founder, Writer Beware
http://www.writerbeware.com


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

RedFoxUF said:


> I always run my sets by consensus and touch base as the sales come in. So I rarely give hard expiration dates. If we are going gangbusters, it's silly to take it down just because of a contractual date obligation. Back in the stone ages, I was in a set that sold like crazy for 8 months or so. We rode that thing into the ground. Fantastic money.


Nothing wrong with a fixed timeframe. I set a one year contract to protect both the authors and me (for example, from an author pulling out of a set to go wide or Select, something that would cause the box set to violate TOS) and offer to renew each year if it's doing well enough to be worth my time.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

So my thought is, can the author(s) who are not getting paid issue DMCA takedown notices to the vendors? Don't brickbat me please, I'm just asking, not knowing much about the law or anything about the details of the contracts they signed, but it might be a way to at least fight back and deny the scammer the profits, gain some leverage.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> So my thought is, can the author(s) who are not getting paid issue DMCA takedown notices to the vendors? Don't brickbat me please, I'm just asking, not knowing much about the law or anything about the details of the contracts they signed, but it might be a way to at least fight back and deny the scammer the profits, gain some leverage.


It would depend on the wording in the individual contract. Just like in trade publishing some authors can't get their rights back even for non-payment because their contracts don't cover that, I would assume the same would be true here.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> So my thought is, can the author(s) who are not getting paid issue DMCA takedown notices to the vendors? Don't brickbat me please, I'm just asking, not knowing much about the law or anything about the details of the contracts they signed, but it might be a way to at least fight back and deny the scammer the profits, gain some leverage.


I watched the video back when Mark first started this thread, and my recollection is that that's already happened.

Agreeing to include your work in a collection should not entail surrendering your copyright over that work. That's definitely something to look for in contracts when you agree to join a collection.

ETA: Some info on copyright and anthology contracts.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Cassie Leigh said:


> It would depend on the wording in the individual contract. Just like in trade publishing some authors can't get their rights back even for non-payment because their contracts don't cover that, I would assume the same would be true here.


You shouldn't have to get your rights back. You shouldn't surrender them in the first place, not for inclusion in an anthology.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2016)

David VanDyke said:


> So my thought is, can the author(s) who are not getting paid issue DMCA takedown notices to the vendors? Don't brickbat me please, I'm just asking, not knowing much about the law or anything about the details of the contracts they signed, but it might be a way to at least fight back and deny the scammer the profits, gain some leverage.


From past experiences, I know that you don't even need a DMCA. Amazon replies swiftly to any author complaints regarding multi-author box sets which is why individual authors should NOT contact Amazon about box sets, only the organizer/publisher should do that (assuming they don't want the set taken down).


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm grateful that Ruby Madden has been named so we all know who she is. Authors need to know who these people are so they can protect themselves, and I'm grateful that the mods have allowed that to happen. I hope the affected authors have at least been able to go to Amazon together and explain that they haven't been paid, so Amazon takes the sets down. 

FYI to newer authors: there are a number of individuals like this who run promo businesses for boxed sets and individual books, or do a lot of bundling, whose practices are very shady. Even if they have testimonials, you want to be very careful. If it comes crashing down, it won't just be those "promoters" who are taken down--it's YOUR author account. If there's a lot of smoke around a person--there's probably fire. If your questions aren't answered, if there isn't transparency about exactly how everything works, if there's any anger, especially, about people asking questions--run, don't walk.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I watched the video back when Mark first started this thread, and my recollection is that that's already happened.
> 
> Agreeing to include your work in a collection should not entail surrendering your copyright over that work. That's definitely something to look for in contracts when you agree to join a collection.
> 
> ETA: Some info on copyright and anthology contracts.


This is another reason why I explicitly say in my contracts that the author is granting me a non-exclusive right to publish, not an copyright or an exclusive right. This is also what I insist on when I get into a box set or sell a story to an anthology or magazine. The magazine or anthology might ask for the copyright, but I never give it to them. They either change their terms or it doesn't happen.

All this is predicated on having what Harlan Ellison called "F***-you money;" in other words, if you can afford to walk away from deals instead of needing them to pay the bills, and you're willing to stand your ground, you can often get much better terms, because they need you more than you need them.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> All this is predicated on having what Harlan Ellison called "F***-you money;" in other words, if you can afford to walk away from deals instead of needing them to pay the bills, and you're willing to stand your ground, you can often get much better terms, because they need you more than you need them.


Yeah, true. On the other hand, none of the indie boxed-set organizers I've worked with have asked for rights. I don't think it would even have occurred to them. If a boxed-set organizer were to make such a request, it'd be a huge red flag for me.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The best piece of business advice I ever got came from my old Kirby distributor. Pay your people FIRST, your bills SECOND, and yourself last. If you do this, you will never get in trouble with money.


This. I ran a micro-press (REALLY MICRO) for about ten seconds earlier this year. I paid the other two authors their share the day the Amazon money hit the bank, period, before I spent one red cent on anything else.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm grateful that Ruby Madden has been named so we all know who she is. Authors need to know who these people are so they can protect themselves, and I'm grateful that the mods have allowed that to happen. I hope the affected authors have at least been able to go to Amazon together and explain that they haven't been paid, so Amazon takes the sets down.


100% agreed. There's bad apples in this industry and some of them get by because people won't name them out of fear of retaliation. The only way to weed them out, though, is by shining a light in the corners they scurry in.

Obviously, I don't care to see anyone falsely accused, but there definitely comes a tipping point where its hard to refute.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Done a little pruning --- let's keep on topic. This thread is about problems with Box Sets and authors not getting paid. There are lots of other threads to discuss other author problems. 

Kboards has not suppressed Ruby's name in the discussion of problems people have had. We would welcome her input/explanation on the situation.


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## SpringFever (Dec 10, 2016)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Kboards has not suppressed Ruby's name in the discussion of problems people have had. We would welcome her input/explanation on the situation.


Wouldn't we all. The worst thing for all the authors involved, is that the organizer has never attempted to explain her behaviour, but she was still active in forums and social media. Authors who contact her, to ask about the money issues, simply get blocked. Money aside, she was asked to take the sets down. Nothing. So the authors involved had to contact Amazon, and ask for the sets to be taken down. This coincides with the time frame in which the organizer had a sudden drop in income. We can only speculate as to whether these two facts were linked.

Removal of popular box sets from her account, lack of income. Let me think on that!

If she'd had problems, they could have been dealt with. She might not realize it, but the bad feeling was not about the money, although that in itself is galling. It was the lack of communication, the lack of human decency to give answers only she had. To let other authors waste more time and energy on her than they ever wanted to.

Yet she has come on this forum, trying to be the champion for other authors, when she has so blatantly disregarded those authors who trusted her. I don't know if she is aware of the simmering anger towards her. And her actions this week in trying to bring authors over to her blog, in trying to get them to trust her, has fuelled that anger no end.

It worries me, that since this has happened, there have been two more episodes. Just because you know the organizer, don't think they won't default. Please, if you join a box set, make sure you have a contract, make sure you are able to get in contact with other authors in the sets, keep in contact. Make sure you know your box sets end date, and your payment dates, and if the organizer defaults, act quickly and don't get fobbed off. Be wary of buy-ins. If the organizer defaults, know how you can get your money back.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

SpringFever said:


> Be wary of buy-ins.


Yes, the asking price is getting larger and larger. I've seen as much as $500 per author to get into a boxed set. Dangling the carrot of "making a list" entices authors to pay it, even if they can't afford it. Some of the organizers are hardworking and legitimate, but some are predators. The trick is finding out who is who.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I watched the video back when Mark first started this thread, and my recollection is that that's already happened.
> 
> Agreeing to include your work in a collection should not entail surrendering your copyright over that work. That's definitely something to look for in contracts when you agree to join a collection.
> 
> ETA: Some info on copyright and anthology contracts.


Maybe I used the wrong terminology, but usually don't you have to grant a non-exclusive right to the organizer to include your work in the box set? If there aren't terms for when you can terminate that grant of a non-exclusive right then I'd imagine you're stuck for whatever the period of the contract is.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

I keep hearing the buy in price going up.  

I was contacted about going into a boxed set (I know enough now to know that as a newbie I am likely not wanted until I polish up my skills more), buy in was at least a thousand..........


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Pizzazz said:


> Yes, the asking price is getting larger and larger. I've seen as much as $500 per author to get into a boxed set. Dangling the carrot of "making a list" entices authors to pay it, even if they can't afford it. Some of the organizers are hardworking and legitimate, but some are predators. The trick is finding out who is who.


I'm in an upcoming box set that had a 500$ buy in, i'm not some fool getting taken for my money. 
Be careful to not assume that every box set that has a buy in is scamming authors.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

JalexM said:


> I'm in an upcoming box set that had a 500$ buy in, i'm not some fool getting taken for my money.
> Be careful to not assume that every box set that has a buy in is scamming authors.


I don't think any assumptions were made that there aren't legit high buy in sets, more a warning that one should be extra cautious because of it.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Rick Gualtieri said:


> I don't think any assumptions were made that there aren't legit high buy in sets, more a warning that one should be extra cautious because of it.


I know, but using a statement like this


> I've seen as much as $500 per author to get into a boxed set. Dangling the carrot of "making a list" entices authors to pay it, even if they can't afford it.


Is a pretty damning statement no matter what they say afterwards.
It's about the way people are wording their post.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

JalexM said:


> It's about the way people are wording their post.


You mean where she clearly stated that "some of the organizers are hardworking and legitimate"? Because yeah, words matter. But you have to read all of them.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

lilywhite said:


> You mean where she clearly stated that "some of the organizers are hardworking and legitimate"? Because yeah, words matter. But you have to read all of them.


Some statements have greater gravity than others, as an author you should know that.
Especially in context to the comment some were responding too.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Here are some other sketchy things I've heard are happening, just as an FYI, author-beware. If you're being asked to do any of these things, you should seriously consider getting out. Remember: it's your account you are risking.

1) You're asked to put a KU book into a preorder for a wide boxed set, even with the idea that once it's published, the bundle won't be in KU. This is NOT OK, on preorder or after release, and Amazon has bots checking for exclusive content on other sites. If somebody talks to Amazon about it, YOUR account could be in trouble.

2) You're required to have a bunch of friends/acquaintances buy or borrow/read the 99-cent bundle to push up the ranks (not just to share in your newsletter, on social media, etc., which any author would expect to be asked to do as part of their participation).

3) If there's no transparent/explicit explanation of how all your buy-in money will be spent. The organizer should be sharing exact costs and where the money's gone. When I did the only 2 boxed sets I've organized (I don't normally participate in them), my assistant put together a spreadsheet listing every promo site, cover/graphics designer payment, etc., when the promo would run, when it had been booked, and how much it cost.

4) If there's any resistance/anger to your request for that kind of transparent accounting, [ETA] or unprofessional online behavior in general (esp. somebody who complains about other authors, gets involved in public feuds, etc. This kind of behavior is sadly not unknown in the indie world, esp. in group stuff, but you really don't want to get involved with people who engage in it--next time, it might be you in the cross-hairs, or you may be asked to join in to gang up on somebody else. In any case--unprofessional behavior in one aspect of work life probably ought to make you leery.)

5) If there isn't a detailed contract saying what your obligations are and what you'll get in return (when/how payouts will be made). If you're asked to do anything beyond that contract (see above).

$500 buy-in for a boxed set is a LOT. Assuming there are 10 authors, that's obviously $5,000. You'd really want to ask exactly where that money is going, and to be assured that you'll be shown documentation. Also: be aware that there are SOME organizers out there using a type of click-farm or reciprocal borrows/buys to make the sets hit lists. Even if they do hit the list or whatever, is that really going to result in more borrows or buys for individual-you-set-participant? If people aren't actually reading your book, the answer is going to be "no," beyond whatever cachet the letters get you.

Really--at this kind of buy-in--dig deep. I'm not saying it can't be legit. I'm saying--ask the questions. Hitting a rank, any rank, doesn't pay any bills. Actual purchases or borrows of YOUR books pays the bills.

Others may have things to add to this list. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable about this--those are just the items that have come to my attention sitting on the periphery.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

$500 is highway robbery, but then again I'm not in the habit of trusting other people.

There are also some organizers that do get good rankings, but when I look at their behavior online, well, I wouldn't want to do business with them even if they were legit.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> Here are some other sketchy things I've heard are happening, just as an FYI, author-beware. If you're being asked to do any of these things, you should seriously consider getting out. Remember: it's your account you are risking.
> 
> 1) You're asked to put a KU book into a preorder for a wide boxed set, even with the idea that once it's published, the bundle won't be in KU. This is NOT OK, on preorder or after release, and Amazon has bots checking for exclusive content on other sites. If somebody talks to Amazon about it, YOUR account could be in trouble.
> 
> ...


Another I would add is if there are no positive testimonials then look the other way. The only reason I invested 500 is because of all the positive testimonials from other authors and the proof they had to back up the testimonials.


NeedWant said:


> $500 is highway robbery, but then again I'm not in the habit of trusting other people.
> 
> There are also some organizers that do get good rankings, but when I look at their behavior online, well, I wouldn't want to do business with them even if they were legit.


You don't need to trust people, you just need to trust that your eyes looked over the legally binding contract well enough.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Here are some other sketchy things I've heard are happening, just as an FYI, author-beware. If you're being asked to do any of these things, you should seriously consider getting out. Remember: it's your account you are risking.
> 
> ....
> Others may have things to add to this list. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable about this--those are just the items that have come to my attention sitting on the periphery.


+1 to it all.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JalexM said:


> Another I would add is if there are no positive testimonials then look the other way. The only reason I invested 500 is because of all the positive testimonials from other authors and the proof they had to back up the testimonials.
> 
> You don't need to trust people, you just need to trust that your eyes looked over the legally binding contract well enough.


After 30 years or so in the business world, I can say that yes, you probably do need to trust people. What are you going to do if they don't keep to the contract terms? Sue? Know how hard/expensive that would be? Any lawyer would tell you--not worth it. It would cost far more than it would be worth, and if you lose (which can easily happen), you could end up paying for THEIR lawyer, too. You'd only try to enforce the contract terms if you had very deep pockets indeed, and a willingness to empty them for a principle.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> After 30 years or so in the business world, I can say that yes, you probably do need to trust people. What are you going to do if they don't keep to the contract terms? Sue? Know how hard/expensive that would be? Any lawyer would tell you--not worth it. It would cost far more than it would be worth, and if you lose (which can easily happen), you could end up paying for THEIR lawyer, too. You'd only try to enforce the contract terms if you had very deep pockets indeed, and a willingness to empty them for a principle.


I would actually sue, if you had a good contract then you wouldn't lose if they decide to, and based on how much the organizer took, then it could actually be worth it. With the possibility of getting the money you are actually owed, plus dragging the sinners name in the dirt so they could never do it again seems very worth it for me, but then again, I'm a vengeful person.
If you signed a [crap] contract that gives you a high chance of losing if you sued, then that's on you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

*pokes head in door*

Folks, this is a good discussion.  Seems like there have been a couple posts this evening that have gotten a little excited...let's keep things on an even keel, please.  I'm playing with my new Instant Pot pressure cooker.  Things at my house could blow any second.  Let's not have the same thing happen in the Writers' Cafe.

Betsy


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

JalexM said:


> I would actually sue, if you had a good contract then you wouldn't lose if they decide to, and based on how much the organizer took, then it could actually be worth it. With the possibility of getting the money you are actually owed, plus dragging the sinners name in the dirt so they could never do it again seems very worth it for me, but then again, I'm a vengeful person.
> If you signed a [crap] contract that gives you a high chance of losing if you sued, then that's on you.


Even having an attorney send a letter can be hundreds of dollars. NOTHING will be guaranteed once you get into the legal system except that the lawyers will make money. Ask anybody who's sued, who's gotten divorced, who's tried to get non paying/destructive tenants out of their house. (I can tell you that one: $10k for the lawyer alone; 6 months.)

Really: check the reputation carefully, that's all I'm trying to say. Most folks in indie publishing as elsewhere are well meaning, decent folks. But there are a few bad apples.

ETA: lawsuits are kinda like fights: the best one is the one you don't have.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> Here are some other sketchy things I've heard are happening, just as an FYI, author-beware. If you're being asked to do any of these things, you should seriously consider getting out. Remember: it's your account you are risking.
> 
> 1) You're asked to put a KU book into a preorder for a wide boxed set, even with the idea that once it's published, the bundle won't be in KU. This is NOT OK, on preorder or after release, and Amazon has bots checking for exclusive content on other sites. If somebody talks to Amazon about it, YOUR account could be in trouble.
> 
> ...


All of this and worse. I've seen organizers with large FB groups paying members to buy the sets they release. I've seen organizers ask for up to $2000 buy-ins for the possibility of making the NYT list (note that they can't even guarantee that will happen.) I mean, that's a lot of money if you have 20 authors. How is it even possible to spend all that?

And as someone who has made bestselling lists with box sets, I can tell you that it doesn't mean much in terms of sales. Attaching USA Today or NY Times to your name isn't going to magically get you more sales. Heck, it probably won't even get you a BB ad. So, yeah, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

JalexM said:


> I'm in an upcoming box set that had a 500$ buy in, i'm not some fool getting taken for my money.
> Be careful to not assume that every box set that has a buy in is scamming authors.


Hi Jalex,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that authors are fools for paying $500 (or more) for buy ins, and, obviously, not every boxed set organizer is scamming authors.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

SummerNights said:


> And as someone who has made bestselling lists with box sets, I can tell you that it doesn't mean much in terms of sales. Attaching USA Today or NY Times to your name isn't going to magically get you more sales. Heck, it probably won't even get you a BB ad. So, yeah, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.


Good point.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

SummerNights said:


> All of this and worse. I've seen organizers with large FB groups paying members to buy the sets they release. I've seen organizers ask for up to $2000 buy-ins for the possibility of making the NYT list (note that they can't even guarantee that will happen.) I mean, that's a lot of money if you have 20 authors. How is it even possible to spend all that?
> 
> And as someone who has made bestselling lists with box sets, I can tell you that it doesn't mean much in terms of sales. Attaching USA Today or NY Times to your name isn't going to magically get you more sales. Heck, it probably won't even get you a BB ad. So, yeah, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.


This. You don't need letters to get a BookBub ad. I know many romance authors with "letters" thanks to boxed sets who make much less money than I do. So by all means try it if you want to; just be careful about the company you're in.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

[And no, I'm not calling anybody a "dog." It's a saying about being careful about the company you keep, because you can end up tarnished by association.]


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

My only problem with this thread is that this is great information.

In Kboards.  I have joined a lot of FB groups now (I can barely keep track at times) and some of the things being posted?  Wow.  It was one of those groups that I was approached through.  I had applied to another FB group but didnt get chosen for that boxed set.  Weeks later in another group a boxed set came up and I was offered a spot but the cost was too high and they didnt seem interested in screening me.

I just wish more people knew about kboards and the info here.  Was the offer I received a valid offer?  Maybe.  But how many other brand new authors are being offered these opportunities that maybe work out or not?


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I think it should be said that a box set doesn't have to list to be a great deal. I've been in four short story anthologies in 2016: one in KU, one permafree (and ongoing: ), and two wide sets (this one is still out there: https://www.amazon.com/Once-Upon-Curse-Faerie-Tales-ebook/dp/B01G35DZAW The story I wrote was so much fun, and I've gotten a lot of leads from it--plus an idea for another series!)

They've all been great experiences. None required buy-in. We didn't list, and they still have boosted sales, and paid a lot considering, you know, they were short stories. 

I have to also echo what Rosalind said: I know a lot of authors who have listed who are barely getting by. I've listed my first in series bundle, it didn't change my life, and it hasn't made getting a BookBub on my permafree in that series easier.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Pizzazz said:


> Yes, the asking price is getting larger and larger. I've seen as much as $500 per author to get into a boxed set. Dangling the carrot of "making a list" entices authors to pay it, even if they can't afford it. Some of the organizers are hardworking and legitimate, but some are predators. The trick is finding out who is who.


I've been in three boxed sets with highly reputable authors. Legit offers don't ask authors to buy in that I'm aware of.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Almost three years ago I ran an ad here on KBoards asking folk to join one of my boxes for the low, low cost of $495. 

The kicker? It was an April Fool's joke. Because who would pay to be in a set (even if we'd just put one on the NYT list)? That's how naive I was.

Now they're big business. It probably takes $10-12K+ to hit the USAT list with one now if you're relying on BookBub display ads and buying a few thousand copies to gift to your fans. Some folk are desperate for letters. And because of the heavy upfront investment, it just makes sense to put them in KU and encourage private FB groups to one-click their way to the end of the box so you don't have to rely on that pesky 99 cent price to recoup your fees, right? 

In all, I produced 36 multi-author boxes over about 2 years, and while I might still do a couple in 2017 and would happily jump our books into legit (and non-upfront-fee-bearing) ones others are running, I'm glad to be for the most part done with them. Too many people peeing in that pool now and fouling it for the rest of us.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

katrina46 said:


> I've been in three boxed sets with highly reputable authors. Legit offers don't ask authors to buy in that I'm aware of.


Actually, there's plenty of legitimate boxed set organizers/authors asking for buy-ins to help pay for promotional costs. That's fine. The trick is to find out who is legitimate and who is not. That's difficult to do, but forums like Kboards helps. ~~~ If your instinct is telling you that the boxed set organizer/author is going to use the money to pay their personal bills - RUN THE OTHER WAY.


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## Pizzazz (Dec 14, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> Too many people peeing in that pool now and fouling it for the rest of us.


Unfortunately, that's what's happened. (I'm in one boxed set where I'm still waiting for payment. I'm in another one where I'm crossing my fingers and toes that we'll be paid as expected.)

I'm DONE with boxed sets FOREVER after the ones I'm currently in are finished.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2016)

JalexM said:


> I would actually sue, if you had a good contract then you wouldn't lose if they decide to, and based on how much the organizer took, then it could actually be worth it. With the possibility of getting the money you are actually owed, plus dragging the sinners name in the dirt so they could never do it again seems very worth it for me, but then again, I'm a vengeful person.
> If you signed a [crap] contract that gives you a high chance of losing if you sued, then that's on you.


Civil court is not the same thing as criminal court. Even if you win, that is only the beginning. You can't get blood out of a rock, after all. Let's say you DO get a judgement? Then what? Now you have to collect it, and the collection is up to you, not the courts. In my Kirby days, I was often involved in lawsuits when people wouldn't return the equipment. Even though we had an "iron clad" contract and got a judgment, we only ever recovered 100% of our costs about 50% of the time. We had the best luck when the defendant lived in the state, because the courts IN STATE cooperate. But if they lived in Pennsylvania or Delaware? Good luck collecting. Because now those states have to recognize the judgement in ************* before you can file paperwork for a wage garnishment. Og, the person you are suing doesn't have a job? OK, try putting a tax lien on their home...oh, they rent. The best you can hope for is to send them to collections...but if their credit is already in the toilet THAT isn't going to scare them, either. Sometimes the collection agency will collect pennies on the dollar, so the $1500 judgement amounts to about $200 recovered.

GODS HELP YOU if the defendant is in another country! Good luck with THAT lawsuit! Particularly if the contract you signed explicitly says that it is bound by the laws in that person's country. Which is normal, by the way, the personal offering the contract to you will almost ALWAYS have a clause that the contract is covered by the laws of that person's country. That is going to be non-negotiable. That means you would have to file suit in that person's home country. Book your tickets, because you will have to do that in person.

Insofar as "dragging the sinners name through the dirt?" The sinners don't care. They genuinely don't. By the gods, PublishAmerica is still in business (under a new name these days) and anyone who has been involved in the industry for more than a few years knows the number of complaints and lawsuits they have been through.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

I recently saw a discussion related to a box set where the initial version was going to be uploaded with novels/novellas by a group of authors and then one week after publication the titles were going to be swapped out for other content by those authors that might include short stories or different novels/novellas by the same authors and where some authors might even drop out of the set altogether at that point.

The argument legitimizing this approach was that customers would always know what they were getting so no harm no foul. My first thought was that reviews made on the first version wouldn't be legit to the second version. And since I have a bit of a background in legalese, I figured I'd go look at KDP terms and see if there was anything that talks to this.

What I found was the following under Edit Book Details: _If the book was previously published and the version you are publishing contains significant changes, it is considered a new edition and *should be published as a new book in your account*. _

My bold.

It seems pretty clear to me that publishing a box set and then significantly changing the content after publication requires publishing the edited box set as a new book. You can't just publish it as a new version of the same book. So for anyone who finds themselves in this situation, I wouldn't do it. It looks to be a pretty clear TOS violation.


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