# Wanted: Advice on self-publishing



## jderouen (Jul 15, 2009)

I couldn't decide where to post this, so I'm posting it here. Moderators, if you feel it should be elsewhere in the forums, please feel free to move it.

I've written two and a half novels, none published. I've queried agents on and off for years, and have gotten nowhere. Mostly I get a form response telling me that they're not currently looking for new writers. I've had a few that really liked the query but said their plates were full. I'm frustrated, and am considering going the self-publishing route. I'm looking into Amazon's CreateSpace program and considering publishing both print-on-demand and Kindle.

I would love ANY advice that any of you who have went through this would care to offer. Is it possible to jump start a successful career via self publishing? If a publishing house or agent becomes interested in the book later, will having self-published help or hurt my odds of getting picked up by a traditional publisher?

Here's the blurb I've been sending with queries, to give you an idea of the book: (it's the first in a trilogy and despite the protagonist being a teenager it isn't a young adult novel)

Summer, 1975. It's a hot June morning in a small Midwestern town when fifteen-year-old Shawn Spencer arrives at the church for his best friend Tanner's funeral. Though his drowning was officially ruled an accident, Tanner's sister Jenny swears she witnessed a huge demon rise up from the depths of the Carthage Lake to pull the teenager down to his watery death.

The real threat, however, lies in the man behind the monster, a three-thousand-year-old Mayan priest who has vowed to settle an old grudge and regain an ancient artifact that was stolen from him decades earlier.

To survive the dark days and nights ahead, Shawn must not only decipher what the priest is after, he must move past his own grief, fears, and insecurities, and learn to trust in Jenny, disgraced town sheriff Fred Ruskin, and, most importantly, in himself.

The Small Things trilogy spans forty years and three generations in a tale of murder, betrayal, corruption, sacrifice, love, redemption, faith and magic that culminates in a showdown that will pit the very forces of heaven and hell against Shawn and his family in a battle for the future of mankind and the world itself.

Here's my website as well:

http://www.joederouen.com

Thanks!
Joe


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Joe, I would guess that 99% of the writers that hang out here have done what you've done -- write, query, get rejected, repeat....

I believe I've sent over a thousand query letters myself (via email almost exclusively).

Most of us have decided that the system doesn't work for us so we'll go outside the system.  It would be one thing if one's work was read, evaluated and rejected.  What usually happens with the agenting system currently in place is that an agent reads a query letter and hits the delete button without ever really considering the query, let alone look at the ms.

Some of the authors here have been very successful in marketing their own books.  I was about to name some but if I do that I'll leave too many out.  My honest opinion is that there a lot of great writers who get stuck in the machinery of the old system but now have new options thanks to new, low cost self-publishing options.  (And yes, there are some bad ones too, which is partly why the agents have become so powerful -- publishing houses need them as a filter).  There are very few genres that any agent will even consider representing from a new author and even then the odds are too long.  Most of us decided "screw it," we'll bypass the gatekeepers.   Anybody remember that piece posted here recently about agents?  It was about the mission creep of literary agents from facilitator to gatekeeper (and written by a successful writer).

Maria Hooley (a successful and talented independent writer who posts here a lot) said something a few months ago that inspired me.  I'm going to see if I can search for her post and quote her exactly.

"...to really look at my life, that's when I decided to stop waiting on agents and editors.  The POD and e-book world seemed like a really good place to get things started, and so I just did it."

Even if your stuff is good, the odds are a million to one against you if you wait around for these folks.  I no longer believe any agent will ever roll out the red carpet for me.  I decided that I don't care about that anymore (a lot of sour grapes, but still...).  All I want is for lots of people to read my stuff.  That's enough for me.  Even if that isn't enough for you, maybe, just maybe, if your books are good enough that one person who can make a difference will finally see it if it's out there as a POD.

Just my two cents.  By the way, it costs pretty much zero dollars to put out an ebook or even a hard copy book via CreateSpace.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

If a publishing house or agent becomes interested in the book later, will having self-published help or hurt my odds of getting picked up by a traditional publisher

this question recently came up in #asktheagent on twitter.  one agent's response was that it wouldn't hurt unless the submitted book had an ISBN that could be tracked.  I guess that's because orders are based on previous sales.  I'm not sure that would stop everybody though, because everyone knows the book industry is in a period of massive transition.  And self publishing sometimes leads to a contract, so you never know.  I don't think self publishing carries the stigma it used to carry, if that is your question.


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

It's not easy, but there is more support out there than there used to be. Try http://www.independentauthorsguild.com


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

For the most part, I've read on agent blogs that having a self-published book is fine--IF you are trying to sell a completely different book.  For the most part, once you've self-published a particular book, most publishers don't want that one--they want clean rights to a different one.  Mileage may vary.

I've posted some info from self-published and traditional publishers as far as sales numbers, advances and whatnot over at my blog.  This might be useful for you.

www.BearMountainBooks.com  

From what I'm personally doing--I'm pursuing both avenues at the same time.  I have three books out on Kindle.  I have one out with an agent on submissions.  I have the second in a series that could either go to an agent or to self-publishing, depending on how things go over the next 6 months.

My take on the whole "Getting published" is to pursue multiple trains to get to the destination...

BTW, I only have my books available as ebooks.  I didn't go the print route for various reasons, but I know a lot of authors on this board have done so and seem pleased with the results overall.  Mileage may vary.  We may only be hearing from those that are happy...

Good luck!


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## Maria Hooley (Jul 21, 2009)

I think a lot of it depends on what you consider a successful writing career.  That will determine whether or not you want to go the self-published route.  As a writer who is now working on book 25, I can tell you that I never had much luck with agents or editors.  Does that mean the books weren't good?  I tend to think that's a poor way to judge writing, and I will tell you why.  I've had a very successful publication history in other formats, from poetry to greeting cards to short fiction.  I don't think it's the novels.

My suggestion is to go into this with open eyes and realize that no matter which choice you make, you will make mistakes.  The trick is to make the mistakes you can live with.  After my parents died, I realized I was tired of waiting, and I haven't really looked back.  Yes, there are mistakes I've made, but I can live with those.  And remember that if you base everything on odds of success, you will probably fail.  Most people won't submit something if he or she knows 25,000 other people are submitting.  I did and one of my poems was included in an anthology.  When you realize that this is more about personal preferences in readers, even in editors and agents, you realize that every rejection is one opinion.  And that opinion isn't always right.  The book most rejected by agents and editors is my best selling self-published novel.  

A career takes time, but do I recommend self-publishing?  Yes.  There are a lot of wonderful people who support indie authors, especially on this forum and there is a lot of interaction between readers and writers.  That alone is priceless.

And just for the record, if you are looking for ways to supplement your writing income, I definitely recommend greeting cards--lots of money for a few words.

I hope this helps, and thanks, Dave, for the kind words.  You rock!


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

For me it really boiled down to this: do I want someone to read my work, or should it continue to gather dust while I play the publishing lottery? After letting my first manuscript sit for a dozen years, I decided to go for it and published on the Kindle (and later in other ebook and print formats). My original goal was simply to get it published in hopes that at least one person would stumble over it, read it, and - with luck - even enjoy it; I have considerably exceeded that original definition! But I consider every sale a gift, because that manuscript could still be sitting under my desk, waiting...waiting... 

So, get your work out there, get people to read it and comment on it (hopefully favorably!), and just keep chipping away at it - and enjoy yourself! You'll hopefully make some money, but not a fortune; that may (or may not) come later.

As for whether self-publishing a book hurts your chances for getting picked up by a publishing house, there's a real world example right here on KB from not too long ago: Boyd Morrison. He self-published three books, worked hard at promoting his work over the course of a couple years or so (he also managed to land an agent), and finally clinched a deal with a major publisher. 

Will that happen for all of us? No, but it shows that it *can* be done with a lot of hard work, talent, and a bit of luck...*if* that's the route you choose to take.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

kreelanwarrior said:


> For me it really boiled down to this: do I want someone to read my work, or should it continue to gather dust while I play the publishing lottery?


Some writers are better than others. I wrote a klunky page to say what Mike said here in one well-constructed, hard-hitting sentence.

I need more blue people in my stories, I guess.


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

daveconifer said:


> Some writers are better than others. I wrote a klunky page to say what Mike said here in one well-constructed, hard-hitting sentence.


Mine was just an outline. 



> I need more blue people in my stories, I guess.


That'll happen to writers naturally if they hold their breath waiting to be picked up by a publisher! LOL!


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Sounds as if you're getting some useful info here , Joe, but I have to take issue with a couple of bits of it.



daveconifer said:


> Joe, I would guess that 99% of the writers that hang out here have done what you've done -- write, query, get rejected, repeat....
> 
> I believe I've sent over a thousand query letters myself (via email almost exclusively).
> 
> Most of us have decided that the system doesn't work for us so we'll go outside the system. It would be one thing if one's work was read, evaluated and rejected. What usually happens with the agenting system currently in place is that an agent reads a query letter and hits the delete button without ever really considering the query, let alone look at the ms.


I've had a couple of agents myself and I've read lots of agent blogs and when agents are starting out they find clients mostly through cold queries. (My agents both found me through cold queries and one was certainly not starting out but very well known.) But the reasons for rejecting a query or manuscript are many and may or may not have anything to do with writing skill. In fact I recall one agent saying that most of the rejections authors receive are preordained at the point of concept creation: they want to write a book that simply isn't marketable from the perspective of a major publisher or that isn't unique enough.



MariaESchneider said:


> For the most part, I've read on agent blogs that having a self-published book is fine--IF you are trying to sell a completely different book. For the most part, once you've self-published a particular book, most publishers don't want that one--they want clean rights to a different one. Mileage may vary.


I doubt the mileage varies today. There are plenty of instances of self-pubbed authors getting deals with major houses despite of, or because of, lots of self-pub sales. Not that I'm an expert or anything but I've never heard of a single author complaining that a major house turned down their book due to self-pubbing it first.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm happy publishing my own books and have few if any regrets for doing so.  I like the freedom it gives me, and I set things up in such a way that I don't really have to do anything at this point except collect royalties.  Well, other than book promotion, of course, and I would have to do that even if I was with one of the big publishing houses.

I decided to go ahead and self-publish because I love to tell stories and I hoped that some people out there would enjoy my work.  I never expected to get rich as a writer (and most of us never do, no matter how we're published), it's more about being true to what I care about.  I've had a lot of good reviews and found some enthusiastic readers all over the world, and what more could I have wished for than that?  It may not be everybody's viewpoint, it's just mine.

So I'd say go for it.  You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I would caution you that you might be giving up the chance to submit your self-published works to a traditional publisher later on, so if that's something you really, really care about then maybe you should think about it carefully.  But if you don't care so much about the label, then by all means seize the opportunity.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

William Woodall said:


> I would caution you that you might be giving up the chance to submit your self-published works to a traditional publisher later on, so if that's something you really, really care about then maybe you should think about it carefully. But if you don't care so much about the label, then by all means seize the opportunity.


To reiterate: I don't believe this is a concern today. There are simply too many recent instances of authors getting a deal with a major house for a previously self-pubbed book.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Joe:

Try my free book on Indie Publishing

Are You Still Submitting Your Work to a Traditional Publisher?

http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/316

Ed Patterson


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Eric C said:


> To reiterate: I don't believe this is a concern today. There are simply too many recent instances of authors getting a deal with a major house for a previously self-pubbed book.


Eric,

It's still a concern, at least with some agents. It's fine if you have serious sales numbers to back up your submission, but a lot depends on how many a writer has sold and *how fast*. Yes, a few self-pub'd are being picked up--but there are thousands NOT being picked up because they haven't been able to generate the excitement/headlines. And of those that have been picked up-there is mention of a the NEXT book(s). The most important take-away is to keep writing because you will eventually need a second book--whether you continue with self-publishing or end up traditional.

I'm sure that asking on an agent blog will net you some interesting answers. It's been my experience that most agents don't see a need to pursue a self-published writer any harder than a cold query from one unpublished--unless the self-published can furnish enough excitement that it helps the sale to a publisher. All in all, I wouldn't go into self-publishing EXPECTING or even HOPING that it will get you noticed by a publisher/agent.

But mileage will vary.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

A bit over a  year ago I had some serious interest from an agent on one of my books (Man of Steel).  He read the whole thing and was fired up about it.  When I told him "By the way, I self-published this about six months ago," he freaked.  When he recovered he told me that if it had already been released, market was already tapped for that book.  I said "Dude, it sold only 60 copies.  That's a deal breaker for you?" (I'm paraphrasing).  He hemmed and hawed politely but I got the impression that he just didn't want to be associated with an icky self-published book.  

Now, it could be that he was thinking "It's been out for six months as an independent book and it hasn't caught fire, it must be a dud."  I think that's unreasonable but he might have thought that.  I don't think he thought it through to that point.  His demeanor changed instantly when he found out the dirty little secret 

I'm sure some are more open to it than others, of course.
 

edit:  I WISH it had sold 600 copies.  I meant to type 60.  Oops!


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Dave, 

From what I've read on agent blogs, the reaction you received is normal.  There's a couple of reasons (and i don't think it's the "icky" self pub'd one).  There's a rights issue--you have already published under the "First north american  print rights" so you cannot SELL those again.  This is a legal issue, nothing more.  Those rights simply are NOT available for a publisher to buy once you have published/circulated/sold the book.  They would have to buy reprint rights or transfer the rights or whatever and they aren't interested in most cases.  Also, the sales number, while not large, is a HISTORY.  Agents don't want to deal with history--having to explain in, sell it, whatever, unless it is so overwhelmingly GREAT, it isn't a problem.  It isn't just about whether the book is good, it's about negotiating all the rights, owning and having everything for sale, versus issues that might come up due to x, y, or z having been in circulation.

I think that it may become less of an issue down the road, but from what I read it's flat out easier for an agent/publisher to take on new work--simply no reason at all to bother with something that has a sales record (good or bad) possible rights restrictions (ebook versus other) and so on.  And they don't have to.  They get enough good books in the pile to sell, taking on one that might be just that little bit harder to sell--not going to be easy to talk them into it.

But again--just know the possibilities.  I've talked to several agents at conferences or been in the audience when this question has been asked. I have not heard a single one say they would knowingly read a self-pub'd with consideration to submit to a publisher.  

Not saying anything is impossible, but if it is a concern, research it more carefully by talking to some agents so that you don't end up regretting it later.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

MariaESchneider said:


> Dave,
> 
> From what I've read on agent blogs, the reaction you received is normal. There's a couple of reasons (and i don't think it's the "icky" self pub'd one). There's a rights issue--you have already published under the "First north american print rights" so you cannot SELL those again. This is a legal issue, nothing more. Those rights simply are NOT available for a publisher to buy once you have published/circulated/sold the book. They would have to buy reprint rights or transfer the rights or whatever and they aren't interested in most cases. Also, the sales number, while not large, is a HISTORY. Agents don't want to deal with history--having to explain in, sell it, whatever, unless it is so overwhelmingly GREAT, it isn't a problem. It isn't just about whether the book is good, it's about negotiating all the rights, owning and having everything for sale, versus issues that might come up due to x, y, or z having been in circulation.


Yeah, I guess that's what I meant by "icky." He talked about the publishing rights too. That's interesting about the "history." I never thought of it that way.

Mainly I'm just trying to agree that self publishing is still an issue with some agents.

As I said before, I'm happy being self-published so I'm not worried about burning bridges.


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## jderouen (Jul 15, 2009)

Thank you for all of the advice and ideas. I'll certainly explore each and take everything said into consideration. You've given me a lot to think about!


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

Question one:  Do you want to be a WRITER or do you want to be a PUBLISHER?  These are two different skill sets, and two very different ways of thinking.  Writers want to be read.  Publishers want to sell books.  These are not neccessarily mutally exclusive thought processes, but they require a different way of looking at your book.  Writers simply want people to read a book "as is" and expect readers to "give them a chance."  Publishers present books in a way the reader will want to read it, and then go and try to attract readers.  

Question two:  What is your actual goal?  Is your goal just to have people read your stories, or do you want to actually get paid?  No, I don't mean do you expect to pull in $70,000 a year selling books.  But do you expect to at least make enough money to pay the electric bill?  I suspect if you just wanted people to read your stories, you would have just posted them for free online and not been chasing agents all this time.  

Question three:  Do you want to deal with all the non-writing related crap?  Self-publishing is a lot more than uploading a file to the Kindle or CS, regardless of what people might say.  There are legal implications.  I've seen people get themselves into a world of crap for using a "public domain" image they found on the internet for their cover, only to discover the image was never PDF to begin with.  I've seen people reprint copyright material from other works and think all they needed to do was site the source and that they were covered by fair use.  Rowling has an army of lawyers at her disposal to defend her from copyright lawsuits.  How about you?  How are you going to pay for cover art and proofreading and editing?  How is your tax IQ?  Do you know what you can and can't deduct, or are you at least ready to deal with a professional accountant to make sure you are legal?    Some people cross their fingers and hope they just don't have to deal with it.  Me?  I wouldn't risk my house over my ego.

If you self-publish, you destroy the first time rights to the book.  Now various publishers work under different rules.  Some still don't even consider ebooks "real" publishing, and therefore don't care if you release it on the Kindle.  Others won't consider your work at all.  As Dave already noted, if a publisher requires First Time Rights to your book, you will never be able to sell those rights to the publisher and that will close a lot of doors.  

The first thing I would say to any writer is, think small.  Agents are only really needed if you are trying to get into the big publishing houses.  But many small and indie publishers do not require agents.  Do the homework.  Find small press publishers, research the types of books they sell, and find their submission guidelines.  There are still plenty of small and indie presses out there that are happy to work with new authors.  The average self-published book sells less than 200 copies, and 100% of the expenses are footed by the author.  A bad-selling indie press book will sell 500-2000 copies, and 100% of the expenses are footed by the publisher.  And if you get picked up by a small press a bad-selling book would be around 2,000-5,000 copies, with 100% of the expenses footed by the publisher.

Now all that said, if you actually LIKE the idea of taking a project from start to finish, doing all of your own production, promotion, marketing, and accounting, then self-publishing is an option.  Some writers do make good money self-publishing, but you will find that these authors also have other circumstances behind them.  They have pre-existing backgrounds in business, for example, or friends with such background willing to help for next to nothing.  If you have people you can rely on to help with the nuts and bolts stuff, if may be a good option.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

If you Indie publish, you own your first time rights to publish your book. Destruction? 

Ed P


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

For some people, self publishing is an excellent idea. There are a lot of roads to success and different types of success, however. Here's a bit about mine.

Sometimes Indies run the risk of becoming a publisher yourself. It can happen even if you only publish your own work. It happened to me.

I'm in it for the day to day writing habit, and thanks to a growing fan base I've been able to do it full time for over a year and a half now. Sadly, a significant slice of every day is taken by publicity, image development, technical and distribution duties. Coupled with writing every day, I work about eight to twelve hours, five days a week, reserving my weekends for writing alone.

How much money did I make last year as a writer? I'll be brutally honest: I lived on four figures last year, but keep in mind that I don't have a car, live with a flat mate (who is an artist himself), and don't have any offspring to support. I'm in love with a dream and starting to see a real chance at living it, so my needs are minimal.

On the flip side, after about eighteen months of work and the publication of fourteen titles, it's starting to look like I may have a decent income after taxes this year. (fingers crossed, knocking on wood, and working like hell).

At this point, if a publisher were to offer me a deal it would have to be colossal for me to consider it and I'd need an unprecedented amount of creative control. Why? It's simple: I've been lucky enough to meet people who can work with me to refine and release my work at a quality level that will far surpass anything I've previously offered to the public. I have a stable of proof readers, artists, other writers and distributors that equal most small presses and they're working on my back catalog as well as the next two releases. After everyone is paid, I won't starve, and my growing fan base will be able to enjoy my work in a more refined, up to publisher standard format from cover to text. I hope that sounds like a lot of work, because it was and it will continue to be. Thank God I'm in it because I love what I'm doing.

You can always keep it simple, especially if your goal is to get your work out in front of as many people as possible and not much else, and there are days when I wish that was the route I took. Then again, if I had, I'd still be working in a cubicle and scurrying to scribble in my spare time. I'm much happier doing what I love for a living, and I hope everyone who can produce something worth reading gets the opportunity. That won't happen if we wait for agents or publishers, especially while they're busy playing catch up to the growing Indie trade.

As to your other question; will a publisher be interested in your self published book? Assume they won't be, learn to believe they won't be, and then decide it doesn't matter. People would still be reading Edgar Allan Poe today if his work wasn't put on the shelves by a major publisher, why? It's talked about, seen, read aloud, celebrated, and remembered. Ignore what a publisher or agent will or won't do about you publishing your own work. Instead, get the name of your novel on people's lips, get them reading it silently, to each other, and if you're lucky you'll walk into a book store one day and overhear someone suggesting the work to a friend, or even better: reading a passage aloud. There's a part of every writer that seeks validation. Instead of denying that part, put it to work when you look for publicity opportunities. Be shameless, but polite. Be confident by not overly proud, and if your synopsis has the right ingredients for whoever is reading or listening to it, then you might have another reader enjoying and expressing your work in some way.

Publishers won't want it, but who cares about that when there may be thousands of readers waiting to want your work. They just won't know they want it until you put it in front of them.

Good luck, may you find the readers who will most love your work.

Time to go back to work on my latest.

Randolph Lalonde

A thread dedicated to promotional ideas and a list of a few that have worked for me: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=16798.0

My (very quiet) author's thread: http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,13623.0.html

And finally, the announcement of a final edition of the first trilogy I released in 2008. A much cleaner edit and improved narrative offered for free: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=17894.0


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Bravo Randolphe, especially for your comments about the worth of traditional publishers to the creative mind. They really trail in the pecking order of priorities when it comes to this line of work. They're just another crocodile in the pool - but they no longer own the pool, and they only matter whn they show their teeth. Lucky they've swallowed the clock - tick-tock, tick-tock.   You need to love to do this or take up knitting or both, if you love knitting. But if the whole business of "business" stresses you out and frustrates you, this ain't the pool or even the puddle. What furstrates me most are the many parasites out there that will take advantage of your labors, both creativ and business - for example, the reviewer who will give you a four or five star review and then will contract to sell your book from their shoppe. Nothing illegal, but such stuff frustrates me more than the traditional publisher who knows only one way to go.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2010)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> If you Indie publish, you own your first time rights to publish your book. Destruction?
> 
> Ed P


First Time Rights means that a story has never been published. If you self-publish, you cannot later sell the First Time Rights because you have already destroyed them in the act of publishing. Once a book has been published for the first time, it cannot be published again "for the first time." Unlike virginity, it can't be surgically repaired.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

When I was a single man I never cared whether my new girlfriend was a virgin or not. So what's wrong with second rights?

Here's a snippet from a Wired Magazine article that is seven and a half years old. I think the attitudes expressed here are widespread by now:

"When the effort to get an agent and a major New York publisher has failed, it can make sense to self-publish, said Edghill's agent, Anna Ghosh, of the Scovil Chichak Galen Literary Agency.

"And according to Amy Pierpont, senior editor at Pocket Books, who has purchased three self-published novels, there is actually an added bonus that comes with self-published works: 'If they've sold, the author brings with their project an established fan base.'

"Michael Cader, who recently sold Michael Gerber's self-published Amazon bestseller, Barry Trotter and the Unauthorized Parody, to Simon and Schuster for five figures, suggests that quality writers experimenting with self-publishing -- including Stephen King, Douglas Rushkoff, Douglas Clegg -- have changed the landscape.

"It's just smart business to pay attention to the self-publishing successes. If an author, on her own, meets with reasonable success, a larger company has reason to believe it can build on that success and find a more significant audience.

" 'Knowing they have a savvy author as a real publishing partner, a success story to tell accounts, and a book that audiences respond to, is attractive to a publisher,' said Cader.

"In some cases, it's even easier to sell a book to a large house if you've already racked up 5,000 to 10,000 sales and found the book's marketing niche."


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Well, my viriginity has gone out the window, although I am a certifiable Kinzie 6. And I never had to sell it.   But the point is, unless I'm hung up on jumping on the last train out of Dodge, my First Time Rights are as important as my library card, which I lost thirty years ago, although my virginity was lost . . . well, I'll spare you the details. This girl doesn't kiss and tell.

Ed Patterson


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

And then there's this quote from Del Rey editor Betsy Mitchell's blog today:

"[W]ith the self-publishing tools available today, this is a legitimate route if an author can devote the self-promotion required along with it. And if the book succeeds, a publisher may come calling, and then you've got'em by the delicate parts!"


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## R. M. Reed (Nov 11, 2009)

I have been dealing with an agent, and they do still look down on self publishers. The boss of her agency made some unkind comments about "Vanity Publishing" in his blog quite recently. This attitude may be washed away as things change in the next few years, but it still exists now.


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Oh, let's face it, the prejudice against self-publishing is always going to exist, but what's changed is that it's now a mere class distinction. Publishers won't refuse to do business with you if they think they can make money, and some publishing industry people are apparently monitoring the self-pubbed world of books.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

A thought occurs:

What would happen if a group of indie authors formulated a coordinated strategy to take the top 10-50 places on Amazon.com as well as several other of the top eBook retailer sites?

It's already happening a little on Mobipocket, just look at the top 10 Science Fiction titles: http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/Category.asp?Language=EN&categoryId=14&Name=Science+Fiction

I've also seen indies take over 5 places in the top 10 for the entire site simultaneously. Perhaps a revolution is in order.

The thought brings a grin.


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## Michael R. Hicks (Oct 29, 2008)

Randolphlalonde said:


> Perhaps a revolution is in order...


Randolph, I think the revolution has already begun! Part of it is driven by the technology that now allows us to publish our work without a lot of up-front investment; part is also technology driven for marketing - the web, which allows us unprecedented promotional potential; then we have the current explosion of popularity in ebook readers (which I believe will only accelerate); and lastly, the failure of the publishing industry to adapt their prehistoric business model to the emerging paradigm.

As for indies banding together (among other things), I did a blog post a while back on this very topic that I called _Turning the Tables_. Aside from coincidentally cornering the top spots as indies seem to be doing fairly frequently now on Mobi (led by yourself!  ), I think it would be possible to saturate Amazon's upper positions with Indie titles (although it may be hard to get through the deluge of $0.99 public domain titles!). In theory.

The main challenge that I see with any strategy like this is the "who": whose work gets promoted, who's going to be sitting in those top spots. Our individuality is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness in the face of the traditional publishers. Do we band together in such a way that any indie can join into the strategy? If so, we potentially open ourselves up to the perennial "quality" issue for critics and readers, because while there is a tremendous amount of talent in the indie author community, there is also a huge amount of...well, you know. But if we don't have a "democratic" solution, who decides? Just some food for thought...

Regardless, I do think it's a great idea! 

Oh, and BTW, thank you very much for your post on promotional strategies - that was *extremely* useful! Now if I just had time to actually carry through with some of them! LOL!!


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## Eric C (Aug 3, 2009)

Viva la Revolucion!


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## Kristen Tsetsi (Sep 1, 2009)

Randolphlalonde said:


> A thought occurs:
> 
> What would happen if a group of indie authors formulated a coordinated strategy to take the top 10-50 places on Amazon.com as well as several other of the top eBook retailer sites?
> 
> ...


It's happening on Smashwords. Authors from Backword Books, a group of indie writers, are leading at Smashwords in literary fiction (#1, #4, and #5 spots) and women's fiction (#1 and #2 spots).


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

Kristen Tsetsi said:


> It's happening on Smashwords. Authors from Backword Books, a group of indie writers, are leading at Smashwords in literary fiction (#1, #4, and #5 spots) and women's fiction (#1 and #2 spots).


I think it's safe to say Indies already rule Smashwords because everyone there is an Indie, big publishers aren't welcome. Thank you Mark Coker!


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Actually there are a number of small publishers (gryphonwood which does fantasy and sci-fi.)  There's another small publisher of sci-fi that is out there as well...the name escapes me.  Two or there small publishers of erotica as well.

So it isn't just indies...although we do rule...!!!


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

There are a number of supportive small publishers (7 to date) on Operation eBook drop, which has a pretty solid group of 325 authors. 

Ed Patterson


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## Kristen Tsetsi (Sep 1, 2009)

Randolphlalonde said:


> I think it's safe to say Indies already rule Smashwords because everyone there is an Indie, big publishers aren't welcome. Thank you Mark Coker!


coker rulz


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## jderouen (Jul 15, 2009)

So is there a benefit to self publishing as opposed to, say, going with a small press like Gryphonwood?


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

jderouen said:


> So is there a benefit to self publishing as opposed to, say, going with a small press like Gryphonwood?


There's no simple answer to that question, really. If you haven't started down the road of self publishing, or aren't crazy about being an Indie yet (like me), then you should look at an offer if it's on the table.

I've had two real publishing offers, they were both crap (financially and rights wise), but I looked at them carefully regardless. I've decided I enjoy being an Indie a great deal, so it would take a miraculous offer for me to go traditional, but most people wouldn't pass up any publishing deal.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

Randolphlalonde said:


> There's no simple answer to that question, really. If you haven't started down the road of self publishing, or aren't crazy about being an Indie yet (like me), then you should look at an offer if it's on the table.
> 
> I've had two real publishing offers, they were both crap (financially and rights wise), but I looked at them carefully regardless. I've decided I enjoy being an Indie a great deal, so it would take a miraculous offer for me to go traditional, but most people wouldn't pass up any publishing deal.


 You must be doing quite well to pass up those offers. I know a lot of people that would of just blindly jumped at any offer. For some people it legitimizes them and their writing. It's not just the money. Me I think unless something big came a long, I'm going to be just an Indy. I've always been good at betting, and i think this is the next big think thanks to places like Amazon.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

Sharlow said:


> You must be doing quite well to pass up those offers. I know a lot of people that would of just blindly jumped at any offer. For some people it legitimizes them and their writing. It's not just the money. Me I think unless something big came a long, I'm going to be just an Indy. I've always been good at betting, and i think this is the next big think thanks to places like Amazon.


In all honesty, the offers were so unbelievably terrible that you'd have to have a poor grasp of the english language and a gross misunderstanding of the terms to even consider them. When the second one came I actually felt hostile enough to call them and ask; "really?"

I didn't even mention the other offer from Publish America, who wanted the International print rights for a $1.00 advance per book and less than 4% royalty (by estimation) after representation and production fees.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

Randolphlalonde said:


> In all honesty, the offers were so unbelievably terrible that you'd have to have a poor grasp of the english language and a gross misunderstanding of the terms to even consider them. When the second one came I actually felt hostile enough to call them and ask; "really?"
> 
> I didn't even mention the other offer from Publish America, who wanted the International print rights for a $1.00 advance per book and less than 4% royalty (by estimation) after representation and production fees.


you got a chuckle out of me there. Oh and Publish America is a scam. Watch out for them, there no good from everything I've read.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

Sharlow said:


> you got a chuckle out of me there. Oh and Publish America is a scam. Watch out for them, there no good from everything I've read.


Oh, trust me, I've seen tons of scams. 

I was standing beside a good friend of mine a few weeks ago when I got a direct call from Author House, I couldn't help but convince the rep I was really interested before I asked; "so, how much are you going to charge me for publishing services?" When he replied; "well sir, that depends. We have several packages-" I couldn't make out the rest over the laughing on our end.


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## Sharlow (Dec 20, 2009)

Randolphlalonde said:


> Oh, trust me, I've seen tons of scams.
> 
> I was standing beside a good friend of mine a few weeks ago when I got a direct call from Author House, I couldn't help but convince the rep I was really interested before I asked; "so, how much are you going to charge me for publishing services?" When he replied; "well sir, that depends. We have several packages-" I couldn't make out the rest over the laughing on our end.


 I can remember over 20 years ago receiving all types of snail mail when I mistakenly asked for info on publishing books, because i was interested in such things, and there wasn't any internet at the time. To bad for me I contacted a vanity press, who then sold my name to a hundred others. I never did buy a package, so I'd like to think I cost them all something for all the poor people they talked into buying their packages.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

With all due respect, why would one laugh at a subsidy publisher marketing a publishing package? Surely the AuthorHouse rep didn't represent himself as being a 'traditional publisher'. 

AH is a subsidy publisher, which means that they help authors generate self-published books for a fee. They use that fee to pay for their formatters, cover designers, advertising (of themselves, not the authors), and so on.  One can buy 'packages' which include various services, depending on what authors need (including publicity, marketing, custom cover art, returnability, etc. etc.). Naturally, they make a profit--and I see nothing wrong with that--they're not part of the largest world-wide subpub corp for nothing. Their profits are increasing, while the trads are falling big time. Why? They provide services that many authors need. I know I needed them in the beginning, and I still appreciate what they do for me. My experience with them has been better than I expected, though I know that's not true of everyone.

I've put forth three books through AH, who did exactly what they promised to do. They helped generate three beautiful books, and I paid no more than I expected to pay. Now, after three books, I'm savvy enough that I could (probably) take control of all aspects of production, but I'm reluctant to start my own 'small press'. I have enough on my plate already. If I had attempted to produce my first book 'in-house' I'm not sure it would have been of quite the same quality. Subpubs have a definite niche for indies. I made the cost of my 'package' back very quickly. Why did I choose them?  Because their world-wide HQ is 40 minutes from my front door, and I can therefore assail them in person.  If, in fact, their rep engaged in deceptive marketing, I want to know about it. I'll go over there and give them heck! 

Subpubs are far from the perfect choice, but they are a good choice for many. They do require payment for services and they will increase cover price, as they take a percentage of each book sold. That's the biggest 'down side', other than the stigma. But I can honestly say that had I published through a total DIY the quality would have been much lower than it is. In fact, I can often spot a DIY due to lack of production quality. 

All writers/artists/human beings suffer from vanity to a degree. If we are going to continue to use the (meaningless and outdated) term 'vanity press', then it should be applied to all paths other than traditional. (How dare we be so vain as to believe that people would actually pay good money to read our stories!) 

Now, back on topic: I know of two 'subpub' authors--one from AH and one from iUniverse--who have snagged major contracts with trads. One has gone on to be a best-seller. A lot has to do with genre. In the one case, the books dealt with organ donation.  In the other, cystic fibrosis. They were nonfictional accounts--very poignant and well-written. Another similar book dealing with Alzheimer's is currently in negotiation. My point is this: You guys are all correct. Sometimes, having self-published 'dooms' you for traditional US publishing because of the 'first rights' thing. Sometimes it doesn't! The times, they are a-changin'. 

If one is having difficulty with the 'first-US-rights' problem, allow me to suggest international publishing. 

(Here's a bit 'o trivia--AH used to be known as 'First Books'--their mission was to help writers get their first book into print with the idea that some might make the leap into the trads with later works. Not a bad mission, says I.  The fact that I can walk into an appointment with three successful indie novels and an established fan base cannot help but increase interest in future works. I've seen the light come on in a few agents' eyes. Now, if one has written the timeless tale of the farm-boy who discovers that, because of his finding the magic whozzis in the cave of Abracadabra, he is the 'chosen one' in the prophecy, there's not much hope.)


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2010)

jderouen said:


> So is there a benefit to self publishing as opposed to, say, going with a small press like Gryphonwood?


The benefit is the folks at Gryphonwood are pros that have a pre-existing customer base and know how to market your book for you, freeing you up to write. Again, it goes back to how much non-writing work do you want to do.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2010)

I'd like to say that, as a CONSUMER, I would be pissed off to find out that a group of hacks (because that is how I would think of them moving forward) deliberately and will intent fabricated a scam to artificially put their books at the top of the rankings.  THAT, boys and girls, is precisely the sort of stuff that bloggers will find (because you know your posts are found in Google) and will make all self-publishers look bad.

A similar stunt occurred with print books several years ago when a bunch of self-pub authors decided to order each others books from their local book stores to get them stocked.  Up until a few years ago, most bookstores would allow you to pre-order a book, and not pay for it until it came in.  Well, these fools pre-ordered books at a variety of stores and never paid for them.  Since they were POD titles, the bookstores were stuck with them.  They got snagged because they promoted their scam at lulu.com to get more people involved.  This is how I am aware of it.

There was also a similar stunt with print books on Amazon, with authors buying each other's books at specific times trying to manipulate the rankings.  They bought multiple copies at a time and then took advantage of Amazon's return policy to return the books.  This stunt lead to a contractual change with several POD providers.  Those of you who use POD services may have noticed about a year ago a subtle change to your agreement language that says you will be responsible for sales that you cause to be made that are fraudulent.  

Bottom line is, when self-publishers try to scam or manipulate the system, the stores notice and respond.  And it makes it hard for the rest of us.

If you really want to help each other, buy each other's books that you sincerely want to read, then leave a review.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree. There are many ways to promote your books - so effective, so, well . . . And there are many ways Indie authors can help each other (as we are doing so here now), but trying to rig rankings is not a good way. For no other reason than ethics. We can band together as helpers in so many productive ways - artisitc ways. In the end, however, every author must find their own brand among their readers, and that's established by the books and the readers themselves - what they see, like, hate or the opinion they form of an author. Scamming the system is one point I never want in my brand or any unethical act that would make a reader feel that I sold them snake-oil. My writing should egage the reader, not my promotion tactics.  know from experience that readers do not like to be beat over the head with a bongo drum. If, however, they feel that you ight provide an interesting read, they will come there by their own accord.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Well spoken, Ed and Bards.

It's grand to be helpful, but one must not deceive. Always, _always_ take the 'high road'.

Once one has acquired a reputation for deception it's almost impossible to shake off. 
I've seen a lot of threads devoted to 'Is this ethical'? We know it when we see it. The minute a tactic is designed to benefit the producer AT THE EXPENSE of the consumer, it crosses the line, IMO.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

archer said:


> With all due respect, why would one laugh at a subsidy publisher marketing a publishing package? Surely the AuthorHouse rep didn't represent himself as being a 'traditional publisher'.


Three reps so far have called from Author House to inform me that their company is very interested in publishing my work. They most certainly did represent themselves as a traditional publishing house, and during each call the last thing they wanted to tell me was they wanted to be paid up front (exactly like a vanity press of old, making most of their money off the authors and NOT book sales), but when prodded to tell the whole truth about their "publishing deal" it always came down to me investing at minimum, a thousand dollars to get a book out.

No, I don't pay for publishing services, ever. The first time money changes hands with any of my partners (Smashwords, Mobipocket, Amazon, Createspace, Lulu, etc...), it's landing in my bank or paypal account, not being sent in their direction. They make their fair share from sales on their end, to readers.

I understand how someone might want to hire a person for formatting services, or for a cover. I've hired an artist for a cover before and just hired one for a future cover. Whereas a vanity press would charge me a huge markup for a "graphic designer" (usually someone without a degree), to hammer out a cover in 5 minutes using stock photographs for an outrageous markup, you can benefit a great deal more by learning how to do it yourself properly (the learning to fish for yourself versus buying at market argument), or by hiring an artist I can form a working relationship with. I'm also benefiting my local community by hiring local talent.

So when a vanity press - and Author House has never successfully proven to me they aren't one, despite their numerous attempts - tries to tell me I need their services and they're worth the price, I laugh. The alternative response I'd offer them is a lot less civilized.


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## BP Myers (Jun 7, 2009)

A fascinating discussion on self-pubbing has been going on on well-respected author Brian Keene's blog:

http://www.briankeene.com/?p=3265

Definitely worth the time. The comments section too offers a variety of perspectives. Even Kindleboard friend (and remarkably successful self-publisher) JA Konrath took some to offer his thoughts.

Whatever you do, make sure you go in with your eyes open and your expectations realistic.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

bardsandsages said:


> I'd like to say that, as a CONSUMER, I would be p*ssed off to find out that a group of hacks (because that is how I would think of them moving forward) deliberately and will intent fabricated a scam to artificially put their books at the top of the rankings. THAT, boys and girls, is precisely the sort of stuff that bloggers will find (because you know your posts are found in Google) and will make all self-publishers look bad.


No one's said anything about scamming a system or artificially pushing books to the top of a list. I agree that tricking the system is the wrong way to go, actually. It's possible to get up there by spreading the word and using legitimate promotional tools.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Bravo Randolphe:

I've 14 books under my belt and not one dime spent except for proofs. The money (not much, a few thousand) comes my way. Never spend money to publish.

Ed Patterson


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

'Three reps so far have called from Author House to inform me that their company is very interested in publishing my work. They most certainly did represent themselves as a traditional publishing house' (from Randolphe) 

If that ever happens again, please get the name of the rep and send me a pm, will you?  I'm dead serious about that. Perhaps the difference is that they did not solicit my business, whereas they came knocking at your door. They have never even hinted (to me) that they are anything other than what they are--if someone in marketing has decided that they should masquerade as tradpub, then someone needs to try to get them out of that mindset. I have no difficulty with someone trying to earn a living as long as it is an honest living. 


Best of luck.


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

archer said:


> 'Three reps so far have called from Author House to inform me that their company is very interested in publishing my work. They most certainly did represent themselves as a traditional publishing house' (from Randolphe)
> 
> If that ever happens again, please get the name of the rep and send me a pm, will you? I'm dead serious about that. Perhaps the difference is that they did not solicit my business, whereas they came knocking at your door. They have never even hinted (to me) that they are anything other than what they are--if someone in marketing has decided that they should masquerade as tradpub, then someone needs to try to get them out of that mindset. I have no difficulty with someone trying to earn a living as long as it is an honest living.
> 
> Best of luck.


I will. During the second call I told them not to call again, then came the third call. I won't be surprised if I don't hear from them again until spring, since all three calls came last year during spring/summer, but when they call back I'll make sure I drop you a note.

Oh, and the first rep said he got my cell number from a Google search. I haven't been able to find my own number using Google, so that's a little surprising, but not unlikely since I've had about five pleasant calls from readers since. *shrug*

It sounded like a cold caller to me the first time (I've done that when I was working at the bottom of an advertising firm), the other two times sounded like telemarketers to be honest. They won't be getting a manuscript from me after that.

One more thing: In 2004 I DID actually spend about $850.00 US with Trafford Publishing, a world wide vanity press. I didn't know better at the time, and learned my lesson the hard way. Trafford was the perfect teacher for that lesson in that they effortlessly demonstrated how bad a vanity press could be. To me, vanity presses are the opportunistic slum lords and snake oil salesmen of the industry, no matter how they try to re-brand themselves. Even Trafford's latest documentation (snail mailed straight to my door, despite my emails telling them not to waste paper), branded them as a subsidy publisher. To me, that's just a new name for the same game.

---- Late addendum.

I apologize for my tone, Archer. I have a prejudice against that end of the industry, as I'm sure you've noticed by now. I'll take the volume down several notches and keep to thought out statements instead of rants in the future.


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## matte633 (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow! Great thread! Thanks for all the info, everyone!  Kindleboards has been the best educator!  (Much better than any writers conferences I've attended)


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## Randolphlalonde (Sep 12, 2009)

matte633 said:


> Wow! Great thread! Thanks for all the info, everyone! Kindleboards has been the best educator! (Much better than any writers conferences I've attended)


And here I was regretting the fact that I won't be able to afford to go to Ad-Astra this year. Maybe I should just stick to Kindleboards until I have a better budget!


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