# Traditional publishing looking better and better



## MartinGibbs (Jun 20, 2011)

Is the perception of indie publishing declining? In one of the other “reader-only” forums, someone mentioned that they refuse to read any more indie works because of sock-puppet reviews, paid reviews, and other under-handed behavior by independently-published authors.

I’m clawing and scratching to break into traditional publishing, mainly because I don’t have time or money to promote my work 24x7, or to shovel my way through the chaff and onto readers’ radar. It’s too easy for people to create an .epub file and fire it off into cyberspace, such that there is a lot of junk out there (maybe my stuff is junk, too, who knows). So getting into the traditional market allows one to have that line of distribution behind them, the power to setup signings, market locally, and not come across as someone who just downloaded Calibre and uploaded to Amazon.

There is a plethora of awesome indie books out there, and I’ve read many and been very impressed. But there is so much noise that it just doesn’t seem like the fight is worth it... getting a traditional contract is looking more and more appealing.

Does anyone share similar thoughts?

(also posted on MOA forums. And I wish I could disable my signature... this is one time I don’t want to show it)


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

That's funny, because I just lurked on some readers forums and i was shocked at the number that were disgusted with the trades for putting out scanned, unreadable trade books, and then having the nerve to charge 9.99 to 24.99 for them. _Reamde_ is just one example, and that was a new release.

These same readers were having a discussion that indie books were actually better as they had great stories, better formatting, and were readable.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

It depends on what you're looking for. I felt like you at one point. But now I'm happy with making $2k a month in royalties whether I hit it big or not. That's big enough for me now. I've changed my expectations dramatically.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

One more point. Traditional publishers are going to be using eBooks as their new slush pile. Why?

Because the authors have proven they can write a story that will sell, half the editing and formatting is all ready done, (just needs some fine-tuning), they can do their own covers, and market. Do you know how much guess-work and money that saves them in-house?

To prove my point, I 've all ready had to acquisition editors from well-known houses contact me, so if I were you I'd do what I'm doing and Sybil is, and most here are doing--concentrate on writing more books, get them up for sale and let them come to you--or not.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

When reading those forums on amazon, especially those that attack Indie authors, you must remember that they are a small percentage of shoppers who purchase on Amazon.  But I do agree that it's too easy for works to be directly published.  In time, the bad will get weeded out.  However, regardless of being Indie or Traditionally published, a vast majority of the ground work for publicity will always fall to the author in our current economy.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

MartinGibbs said:


> I'm clawing and scratching to break into traditional publishing, mainly because I don't have time or money to promote my work 24x7, or to shovel my way through the chaff and onto readers' radar. It's too easy for people to create an .epub file and fire it off into cyberspace, such that there is a lot of junk out there (maybe my stuff is junk, too, who knows). So getting into the traditional market allows one to have that line of distribution behind them, the power to setup signings, market locally, and not come across as someone who just downloaded Calibre and uploaded to Amazon.
> 
> There is a plethora of awesome indie books out there, and I've read many and been very impressed. But there is so much noise that it just doesn't seem like the fight is worth it... getting a traditional contract is looking more and more appealing.
> 
> Does anyone share similar thoughts?


Good luck with this. Though you will still need to be marketing etc and going to book shows. Let's see, you are an unknown author, just how much money do you think they will throw (risk) at your book? Some readers may look down their noses at indie authors, yet it seems that increasingly more do buy their books. So what is your point?

You can always query some agents?


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> This has never made much sense to me.
> 
> If I'm selling lots of e-books and I'm getting a 70% royalty, why would I need a trade publisher who'll pay me 15%? And if I'm not selling lots of e-books, why would they want me?
> 
> In order to be of interest to them I need to be successful, but if I'm successful I don't need them. Right now there's the potential benefit of getting into the print market, but that market is likely to continue to decline while e-books become more popular.


More reasons why? What better advertising than paperbacks in a WalMart? I'm not signing away my eBook rights, and I've got plenty more books in me. When eBooks go interactive (and they will) including game apps, music and videos, the writing will be one part they hire out to assemble a book. We are in a little mini-golden age of eBooks, but it won't last either.


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## amiblackwelder (Mar 19, 2010)

I wouldn't think you won;t have to do all that work with a Trad, you will have too and that does not guarantee sells either. I know writer who were accepted by big houses and their books flopped at the bookstores and were taken off and now they have a hard time finding anyone to pick them up. Some self-published and can make an extra income with at least that.

Also, you CAN get local signings, into local bookstores, newspapers, local news, schools, libraries. I've done all that. All my books are not part of the Pasco and Hillsborough library systems of Florida and I have most of my books in the local schools as well. 

Just today a writer from Colorado contacted me about adding my elf romance, set in Green Mountain Falls, in the lounge that he writes for and he wanted to get my books on their shelf there. 

And BnN here does a once a year thing for local Indies which I did last year and possibly this year. 

So, you can actually do a lot.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

MartinGibbs said:


> Is the perception of indie publishing declining? In one of the other "reader-only" forums, someone mentioned that they refuse to read any more indie works because of sock-puppet reviews, paid reviews, and other under-handed behavior by independently-published authors.


Pretty sure "Trad" publishers engage in this kind of behavior as well.

Also, trad ebooks and self-pubbed ebooks are all available in the same big pile in Amazon. There's no Trad store and no self-pub store so really, the only way that someone knows the difference is

A) if they look at the "publishers" information in the listing (and even then it could be easy to confuse an imprint with a self pub and vice versa.

B) They believe that books with advertising are corporate.

btw, a friend of mine got a nice trad deal and upon signing was handed a big packet on how to market his book with instructions on how to use twitter, Facebook, forums, blogs etc. Welcome to not needing to market 24/7 for sure.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

If traditional publishing is looking great to you, then pursue it. That doesn't mean you can't also continue to self-publish things, if you want.

Plenty of people try both waters to see which feels best.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> What makes you think your books will be in Walmart? I haven't counted them, but the local Walmart seems to have maybe 50-100 books on the shelves, most of them by well-known best-selling authors. No publisher is likely to drop a Stephen King slot in Walmart to put up a book by Joe Bloggs, first-time writer.
> 
> Yes, if you want your book to be the next Harry Potter then you still have to go through trade publishing. But you're probably more likely to get rich playing the lottery.


The deals I'm looking at include distribution there, plus a major movie deal coming out won't hurt. Also, getting rich was never my goal. Making a living yes, and I'm getting closer to that by writing everyday. I have two more books in edits, and two more ready to start.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> When reading those forums on amazon, especially those that attack Indie authors, you must remember that they are a small percentage of shoppers who purchase on Amazon.


However, if your sole market IS Amazon, this is hugely important to you. There are dozens of threads on Amazon about someone buying a bunch of cheap books, only to discover they were self published and then going on a "All indies suck" rampage. The old rule of thumb in business is for every person that complains, a hundred never say anything and just stop shopping with you.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

NathanWrann said:


> Pretty sure "Trad" publishers engage in this kind of behavior as well.


On what factual information do you base this statement?


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> However, if your sole market IS Amazon, this is hugely important to you. There are dozens of threads on Amazon about someone buying a bunch of cheap books, only to discover they were self published and then going on a "All indies suck" rampage. The old rule of thumb in business is for every person that complains, a hundred never say anything and just stop shopping with you.


Nonsensical. All you can do is publish the best book possible. Worrying about what an undefined subset of readers thinks about indie/self-pubbed/whatever-label-you-like authors is an exercise in futility.

OP: Try different methods and do whatever works best for you.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> On what factual information do you base this statement?


Speculation (hence the "pretty sure"). But if the film industry was caught doing it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Manning_(fictitious_writer)) and the music industry was caught doing it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payola) you can be sure that the Publishing industry is doing it as well. There's too much money to be made for them NOT to try.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Then you're one in a very small number of writers who is likely to become a best-seller through that route. Given the shelf-space in Walmart, there are probably only a handful of writers a year who'd get their first trade-published novel on those shelves.


The question was "why would someone want a traditional publisher", and there are many good reasons why. I want to be distributed in as many ways by as many publishers as possible. That way, not all my eggs are in any one basket.

Many of the eBook people here have books out through trades (including me) and are now doing indie eBooks. Many here do not list all their titles or all the books they've contributed to in their siggys. My name is on the cover as a contributor for Outlining Your Novel Map Your Way To Success by K. M. Weiland and I'm in Novel Morsels by Nichole ODELL.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Something to always remember: whether here, the Amazon forums, Mobile Reads, etc, the posters are not the majority, but the vocal minority. You can learn plenty, of course, but I'd be careful about trying to make sweeping assumptions based on a few, or even a few hundred, posts you've read.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

I was once traditionally published. Now I'm self-published and much happier, better off and more free. 

If you think being trad published means that someone else is going to of the marketing for you, think again. These days, publishers expect you to do the bulk of the marketing and publicity, coming up with new ideas yourself.

You will earn about 90 cents to $ 1.00 per book.

If your book sells less than 10000 copies they will not want to publish your next book.

They will outsource the editing to someone who will cut and slash your ms, until it is more commercial/shorter/longer, etc and the end result might not be what you had in mind.

They have complete control of the cover and will probably go for something that you'll hate.

Apart from that, being traditionally published is fabulous.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> If I'm selling lots of e-books and I'm getting a 70% royalty, why would I need a trade publisher who'll pay me 15%?


The only allure in this situation would be a large lump sum payment.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> The question was "why would someone want a traditional publisher", and there are many good reasons why.


As I said above, the only benefit I see right now is that your books can get into print bookstores; if someone was going to put my books in Walmart, I'd jump at it too.

But that's like saying that if I was going to win the lottery I'd buy a ticket. Only a tiny minority of books will get into the limited space on those shelves.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Here's your _best case_ scenario:

Immediately after reading my post, you get an email from an agent you queried six months ago. She loves the sample chapters you sent her and wants to read the whole thing.

One month later (Feb 2012), she writes you, saying she loved your book and wants you as a client. You sign.

Six months later (Aug 2012), she tells you she has a publisher interested in your book. Negotiations begin.

Three months later (Nov 2012), negotiations are complete. You sign with the publisher for a $5000 advance (although it's much more likely to be $2500, but this is the best case scenario). You don't know it at the time, but this is all the money you will ever see from this book. Your book enters the publishing world's deep freeze.

Eighteen months later (May 2014), following cover design, edits, and pricing, which you have no control over and are told by your 25-year-old editor to take it or leave it, your book appears in the stores.

Six weeks later (early July 2014), your book is pulled for lack of sales, during which time the publisher has done nothing whatsoever to promote you or your book, telling you they "don't have the staff like they used to" to do all the stuff you say you don't want to do. They advise you instead to "set up a few signings in your area" to boost your profile, at your own expense, of course. Meanwhile, after your book is pulled, all remaining copies are ground up into pulp.

And that's the _best case_ scenario. It would likely take longer.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> If I'm selling lots of e-books and I'm getting a 70% royalty, why would I need a trade publisher who'll pay me 15%?


That's just on eBooks. You don't make that kind of money self-publishing on paperbacks. If you do, your books are priced so high you won't sell many. You can find publishers willing to cut deals on just paperbacks.

If you don't get offered a deal that makes sense, don't take it.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Then you're one in a very small number of writers who is likely to become a best-seller through that route. Given the shelf-space in Walmart, there are probably only a handful of writers a year who'd get their first trade-published novel on those shelves.


True. And since she's actually facing potential deals that would include this, as she said--best of luck and congratulations, Lisa!


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Then you're one in a very small number of writers who is likely to become a best-seller through that route. Given the shelf-space in Walmart, there are probably only a handful of writers a year who'd get their first trade-published novel on those shelves.


Five years ago my local Walmart had the Books near the front of the store in a high traffic area and carried maybe 100 -200 books, a mix of HC's and MM paperbacks. Over the last couple years the Books display has greatly shrunken and has been re-located way in the back of the store and they have far fewer books. And far fewer book browsers. Is it only my local Walmart?

OP, Don't pay too much heed to what some bitter posters post on an internet forum. Look at the numbers and indie ebooks do seem to be selling better month after month. Look at Amazon's bestseller lists in most genres and you will find at least 25 indies in the Top 100.


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## red (Jan 11, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> That's funny, because I just lurked on some readers forums and i was shocked at the number that were disgusted with the trades for putting out scanned, unreadable trade books, and then having the nerve to charge 9.99 to 24.99 for them. _Reamde_ is just one example, and that was a new release.


Seriously? That's bad---you'd think that Stephenson would be getting the Cadillac treatment for the digital edition. So it's surprising to hear otherwise. But then also, I guess, it kind of isn't.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Here's your _best case_ scenario:
> 
> Immediately after reading my post, you get an email from an agent you queried six months ago. She loves the sample chapters you sent her and wants to read the whole thing.
> 
> ...


This is not the _best case_ scenario. My case was significantly better than that. I pitched my agent at the end of April, 2008. She called and offered representation 6 days later. We did a round of revisions, and the book went out to editors around July 21, 2008. We had two offers three days later, and a final handshake agreement on terms three weeks later, for a lot more than $5000. Now, that was in 2008, before the Great Crash of Publishing, but I still talk to people who get offers on books within a month of their being out, and I still know debut authors who have received six figure deals in the last year.

This is not the best case scenario. It is not the best case scenario by a long shot.

This is like saying that the best case scenario for indie publishing is that you put your book out there, spend 24/7 promoting, and have 100 sales per month.

What you are listing is a possibility. It is, for some people, a distinct likelihood. But it is by no means the best case scenario. No way.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> This is not the _best case_ scenario. My case was significantly better than that. I pitched my agent at the end of April, 2008. She called and offered representation 6 days later. We did a round of revisions, and the book went out to editors around July 21, 2008. We had two offers three days later, and a final handshake agreement on terms three weeks later, for a lot more than $5000. Now, that was in 2008, before the Great Crash of Publishing, but I still talk to people who get offers on books within a month of their being out, and I still know debut authors who have received six figure deals in the last year.
> 
> This is not the best case scenario. It is not the best case scenario by a long shot.
> 
> ...


The leitmotif of any success scenario is that you have written a good (and marketable) book. Maybe just a marketable book.


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## marielamba (Apr 21, 2011)

As someone who has been both traditionally and indie published, I can definitely say it's all WORK. HARD WORK.  

I focus on writing the best book I can and then taking the path that is right for me for that book...


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

_"I'm clawing and scratching to break into traditional publishing, mainly because I don't have time or money to promote my work 24x7, or to shovel my way through the chaff and onto readers' radar."_

To compare these two options, we probably should set a single goal for both. For example, suppose the goal is to earn $20,000 from book sales by Jan 1, 2014. Which option will require more money and effort? The effort required by a traditional path, or the effort required by the independent path? I don't know. I doubt any of us do since it seems to vary for each individual.

I'd also recommend using sales rather than forum comments to judge the popularity of various types of books. We can't get exact sales figures, but the number and placement of independent books in the overall and genre best-seller lists is an excellent indication of the relative popularity of each type of book.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

This might be a stupid question, but why pick just one path? No one is saying "go indie or die" or "trad only!"... Both paths have money and success down them *with hard work.* No reason not to write a book and query editors (or agents, if you feel you want to go that route) while writing other things and self-publishing them.

Down either path it usually takes time, effort, and more than one book written to see success of any sort.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Edward M. Grant said:


> What makes you think your books will be in Walmart? I haven't counted them, but the local Walmart seems to have maybe 50-100 books on the shelves, most of them by well-known best-selling authors. No publisher is likely to drop a Stephen King slot in Walmart to put up a book by Joe Bloggs, first-time writer.


Um.. Trade books picked up indie author Amanda Hocking in just this way, and now her book is at Walmart.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

BTackitt said:


> Um.. Trade books picked up indie author Amanda Hocking in just this way, and now her book is at Walmart.


As I said, if I was going to win the lottery, I'd buy a ticket. There are only a handful of self-publishd writers who sell as many books as Hocking has, so that's the equivalent of saying 'look, I won the lottery, so you should buy a ticket'.

The slush pile is where mid-list writers used to come from. Last year the trades published tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of novels (I've seen various different numbers). If they were to pull even a thousand novels out of the self-publishing 'slush pile' then perhaps 1% of those would end up in Walmart... the rest would get a small advance and be competing for the shrinking shelf space in book stores.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Michael S said:


> Seriously? That's bad---you'd think that Stephenson would be getting the Cadillac treatment for the digital edition. So it's surprising to hear otherwise. But then also, I guess, it kind of isn't.


It might explain why he is dipping his toes into the waters of 47North.



Doomed Muse said:


> This might be a stupid question, but why pick just one path? No one is saying "go indie or die" or "trad only!"... Both paths have money and success down them *with hard work.* No reason not to write a book and query editors (or agents, if you feel you want to go that route) while writing other things and self-publishing them.
> 
> Down either path it usually takes time, effort, and more than one book written to see success of any sort.


You raise a truly challenging issue. In the ideal world, you could self-publish everything the instant it was ready to go while simultaneously sending out queries to agents and publishers. This way you could earn income on the title as agents and publishers decided if your book was worthy. I say in the ideal world, because some agents and publishers persist in the notion that books that have already been self-published are not pure/pristine/virgin enough to be marriageable. That's even if they are selling well. (And I mean _really_ well.) Obviously, Ms. Hocking's experience (and Lisa's and mine for that matter) suggests that this stigma is dying off like the dodo. But it still persists and must be considered.

B.


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## Rykymus (Dec 3, 2011)

It appears to me that with equal amounts of quality and marketing thru either avenue, the potential end result is the same. What makes the self-pubbed ebook route so attractive to me is that my success (or failure) is in my hands, and my hands alone. The quality of my work and the amount of effort I am willing to put into selling it are what will dictate my rewards.  This is the same entrepreneurial spirit that drives small business owners (which I am as well).  But it is not for everyone, and respect to the OP for recognizing that in himself.

As to which is better? I don't think either is better. But I can think of no reason not to have irons in both fires.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> the rest would get a small advance and be competing for the shrinking shelf space in book stores.


um, what's a "book store"?


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

MartinGibbs said:


> Is the perception of indie publishing declining? In one of the other "reader-only" forums, someone mentioned that they refuse to read any more indie works because of sock-puppet reviews, paid reviews, and other under-handed behavior by independently-published authors.
> 
> I'm clawing and scratching to break into traditional publishing, mainly because I don't have time or money to promote my work 24x7, or to shovel my way through the chaff and onto readers' radar. It's too easy for people to create an .epub file and fire it off into cyberspace, such that there is a lot of junk out there (maybe my stuff is junk, too, who knows). So getting into the traditional market allows one to have that line of distribution behind them, the power to setup signings, market locally, and not come across as someone who just downloaded Calibre and uploaded to Amazon.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's declining, in fact I think it's pretty much alive. I think readers are smart enough to spot trash when they see it whether it be traditional published trash or ebook trash. In fact, traditional publishers are looking at indies and approaching them so the ball game has definitely changed. We in turn, have to make sure we strive for excellence so that houses that may have rejected us one day because we were unknowns, come back crawling.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I agree with Courtney. The best case in traditional publishing is still an order of magnitude greater than the best case in indie publishing. There are a couple of dozen traditional authors who make over a million dollars a year. I don't think even Konrath can say this. And debut authors are still getting six figure advances. Not many, but a few. But then again, you could say the same thing about indie writers. I would argue that the worst-case scenario is worse for indies than for traditionally published writers as well.

Note that this says nothing about whether or not the average writer is better off going the traditional route or the indie route. I'm only talking about the extreme edges of the bell curve.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

shelleyo1 said:


> True. And since she's actually facing potential deals that would include this, as she said--best of luck and congratulations, Lisa!


Thanks Shelleyo1 - Just like most here, I'm writing books and working on making a living. I spend at least four hours a day marketing. Since eBooks don't have an expiration date, I plan on writing enough that even if each book gets modest sales everyday, I can make a living supporting myself writing.
Yes, getting a movie deal is based on good books, the right person (producer) reading them, and then some luck. But so are traditional publishing house deals.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> I would argue that the worst-case scenario is worse for indies than for traditionally published writers as well.


Nope.

The worst case for an indie writer is that you upload your books and you never sell a single copy. The worst case for the traditional route is that you spend decades begging agents to read your books and publishers to buy them and never get anywhere.

The end result is the same, but the traditional route requires a lot more soul-destroying effort along the way.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Nope.
> 
> The worst case for an indie writer is that you upload your books and you never sell a single copy. The worst case for the traditional route is that you spend decades begging agents to read your books and publishers to buy them and never get anywhere.
> 
> The end result is the same, but the traditional route requires a lot more soul-destroying effort along the way.


Isn't the worst case for an indie writer that you spend a couple of thousand on professional editing, a cover, etc., and then realize after twenty-two sales and two one star reviews that this book should be put back in the trunk while you develop your craft? The worst case following the traditional route is that you realize this after having sent out a bunch of email queries to a collective yawn from the industry.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Edward M. Grant said:


> As I said, if I was going to win the lottery, I'd buy a ticket. There are only a handful of self-publishd writers who sell as many books as Hocking has, so that's the equivalent of saying 'look, I won the lottery, so you should buy a ticket'.
> 
> The slush pile is where mid-list writers used to come from. Last year the trades published tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of novels (I've seen various different numbers). If they were to pull even a thousand novels out of the self-publishing 'slush pile' then perhaps 1% of those would end up in Walmart... the rest would get a small advance and be competing for the shrinking shelf space in book stores.


I disagree simply because an indie author who has been successful on their own probably wouldn't give that up for a small advance and shrinking shelf space. If they are successful, it's because they've been paying attention and they'll know what their book is worth more so than the new writer who goes traditional and only knows the value of their writing based on what a publisher tells them it's worth.

For example, say I've earned $20,000 on a book I've self-published. I know exactly what the book is worth, at minimum and I wouldn't take a measly $5,000 advance for it just because a trad. publisher suddenly showed interest in it. I'd probably do a multiple of the $20,000 just to get a ballpark figure.

Konrath has some figures based on years down the road, and it's worth looking into if you can find the post.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

"Horse and Carriage looking better and better" (dated Jan. 25, 1910)

Elmer Backwards wrote the editor of this newspaper today declaring that he was "completely disenchanted" with automobiles, and was investing all his savings in buggy whips. "There are a lot of these new fangled machines breaking down everywhere. They're expensive to buy, unreliable to run, and hard to drive. A horse and carriage are looking more attractive by the day. Mobiles are a fad, pure and simple. Common sense folks simply won't go for them." 

Elmer lives in the midwest with his wife of 30 years and his 14 children. He works in a carriage maker's shop.


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## kirklandatlarge (Apr 12, 2011)

I have been traditionally published, worked with a POD publisher, and am now independently published. If you are worried about not having time to market your books, then don't think it will be any different in the traditional world. Just who do you think will be paying for the marketing and spending the time doing it? It certainly won't be the publisher. Before you can even think about getting a contract for a book, you had better have a very clear idea of how _*YOU*_ are going to market it.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Isn't the worst case for an indie writer that you spend a couple of thousand on professional editing, a cover, etc., and then realize after twenty-two sales and two one star reviews that this book should be put back in the trunk while you develop your craft?


If you spent thousands on professional editing and the editor didn't tell you the book sucked, then you should find a better editor. But on the trade publishing route you could get so depressed because no agent will read your book after spending thousands of dollars sending out queries for years that you kill yourself. Extreme examples aren't really useful.

I'm down at the bottom of the self-publishing pack with about forty total sales since November, but I've still sold more than 90% of writers who are determined to follow the trade publishing route... because if they aren't in the top 10% and don't have a good marketing ploy they'll never sell anything.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Actually, worst case in trad is pretty bad, too.

Worst case: you send to agents and get one who is interested.  But he has a big "but" attached. Your book is almost there, it just needs some editing. Fortunately, this agent knows a great editor who is also a book doctor. You then take his advice and go see this editor, spending thousands of dollars to get your book polished to a shiny shine.  Then you take it back to the agent who sits on it for a year, billing you for "printing and mailing fees" to the tune of 50 or 100 a month.  Then, the agent says, you know, I can't sell this book. But it's okay, we can write another.  So you do that, taking it back to the book doctor.  Another six months and couple thousand bucks later, you give this book to the agent.  When you do some reading online and find out you shouldn't be charged for things in quite the way this "agent" is, he suddenly stops returning your calls.

So you start all over. The next agent who wants your book doesn't require you to go to a book doctor. They are going to help you themselves, for free! You spend months with this agent, going back and forth and making all the changes they ask for.  Then you wait. And wait. You poke the agent, asking if editors are seeing your book. You wait some more.  The agent might tell you that there hasn't been much interest and maybe you should think about writing YA romance with zombie vampires instead of Mil SF or Horror or whatever you wrote. Eventually, this agent also stops returning your calls.

So you start over. After a few months, you manage to hook another agent with that YA romance zombie vampire book. That'll show that last agent! Ha!  This agent sells your book! The contract has a bunch of stuff you don't understand and that doesn't seem 100% good, but your agent tells you that this is the boilerplate and not to make waves, because this agent has some big clients with this publisher and doesn't want to have an unhappy editor on his hands.  You want more money, but the agent says that this is a good deal for someone who is new.  So you sign.  Your first payment is due, so you poke the agent, gently, and ask where the signing money is.  A month later, the money comes to you, minus 15% for the agent, of course.  You go through the edits and turn in the final book.  The next 3rd of your advance is due.  The agent tells you the publisher hasn't paid yet. This is normal, as you find by asking the agent and looking at forums on the internet.  A few months go by. You start to wonder if you'll ever see that money, but you are now busy working on building a "platform" for this book and maybe thinking about the next book.  After multiple queries to your agent, your next bit of money finally shows up.  The book comes out to a universal "meh".  Your mom doesn't like vampires, so she won't even buy a copy.  Your agent starts muttering something about sell-through and suddenly you can't get him on the phone anymore, either.  Which is a problem, because that final 3rd of your advance hasn't come through yet. You finally ask your editor about it since she's the only one you can reach. She tells you that it was mailed months ago.  You poke the agent with this information and it finally shows up in your account.  You tell the agent you have the next book, but no one responds.  Then your editor stops responding, telling you to go through your agent.  

And yes, the horror story can keep going.  If you don't think this is possible, you haven't been around publishing long enough.    I drew all of these examples from people I personally know (I don't think I've heard of anyone unfortunate to suffer through ALL of this yet, but it's a worst case senario anyway).


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> Worst case: you send to agents and get one who is interested. But he has a big "but" attached. Your book is almost there, it just needs some editing. Fortunately, this agent knows a great editor who is also a book doctor.


Good point: I'd forgotten that writers can spend as much or more for editing these days on the trade publishing route as they do for self-publishing.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

There's a lot of misinformation on this thread. If you sign with a trade/traditional publisher, they don't automatically farm out your edits, slap on a crap cover and you only sell 30 copies or something. You don't have to wait 2 years to be scheduled (though this varies from publisher to publisher). You aren't automatically dead if you only sell 10k copies.

It all depends. It depends on the publisher, it depends on the advance, it depends on a lot of things. Sweeping statements don't apply, just like sweeping statements about indie publishing don't apply either. For example, my first book with Pocket was everywhere, Wal-Mart included. I wasn't a big name at all, my advance was small, but the buyers really liked my cover and thought it was marketable, so off it went. My most recent one was in some Wal-Marts, skipped in others, and it's sold more copies in 3 months than my best selling indie has in the last year. It still made me double of what my best selling indie book has. I also took an anthology deal that was most decidedly not in my favor because it was a gamble to see if I could get more visibility.

Not every deal with NY is a bad one. It depends on what you want and what your goal is. If you want to NOT market, then leave the book on your hard drive.  Going with NY is a strategy. Going indie is a strategy. You have to determine what is the best strategy for you at this point in time.

ETA: My worst selling book still sold several thousand copies. If they expect it to only sell 40 copies, there is something seriously wrong and you need to complain.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Also, this forum is probably not the best place to be all "Yay trad pubbing!" when people are here because they are invested in indie publishing. You can totally do both! And you can start with one and move to the other. Both are totally okay.


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## Gone To Croatan (Jun 24, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> ETA: My worst selling book still sold several thousand copies. If they expect it to only sell 40 copies, there is something seriously wrong and you need to complain.


My point about the 40 copies was that 90% of people who want to become the next Stephen King or Rowling through the traditional route will never sell a book to a publisher and hence never sell a book to a reader. Heck, I know plenty of people who haven't even got around to querying publishers or agents yet because they've been rewriting their book for years to get it 'perfect' first.


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

Is trad publishing better for you as an author?

I don't know, have you landed a contract with one of the Big 6? 

If not, I don't think so. Small publishing is fine, and I will continue publishing with small presses as well as self publish - but no, I don't think it's really better. Just different. (different advantages and disadvantages)


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## anne_holly (Jun 5, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Also, this forum is probably not the best place to be all "Yay trad pubbing!" when people are here because they are invested in indie publishing. You can totally do both! And you can start with one and move to the other. Both are totally okay.


I appreciate the balance, Jill.

OP, do what you feel is best for your book/career/you, and best of luck. I agree that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation, and whatever informed decision you make is fine if it's what you want. I think the point you raised about readers noticing writers uploading not-ready-for-prime-time books and then using underhanded techniques to sell them (like phony reviews) is a valid concern. One can hope that those sorts of things will work themselves out, because they are damaging to more than just that single author.

Though, I agree with the warnings that trad publishing doesn't mean freedom from marketing, so I'm glad that was clarified. From what I gather, the publisher's brand name recognition likely helps, true, but you still have to do a lot of your own leg work.

I'm neither self-published or NY published (someplace in between, I guess, since I've been told by various people I am neither trad or indie *shrugs*), so take my opinion for what it's worth. However, I did grow up on a mixed farm, and that gave me a valuable lesson - a varied strategy is likely a solid one for the long term.


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## WilliamEsmont (May 3, 2010)

amiblackwelder said:


> I wouldn't think you won;t have to do all that work with a Trad, you will have too and that does not guarantee sells either. I know writer who were accepted by big houses and their books flopped at the bookstores and were taken off and now they have a hard time finding anyone to pick them up. Some self-published and can make an extra income with at least that.
> 
> Also, you CAN get local signings, into local bookstores, newspapers, local news, schools, libraries. I've done all that. All my books are not part of the Pasco and Hillsborough library systems of Florida and I have most of my books in the local schools as well.
> 
> ...


I'm doing my first signing in the middle of February. It's at an enormously popular used bookstore here in Tucson. As a matter of fact, my Square reader just arrived in the mail today. All I have left to do is drop by Kinko's and make a poster of my latest cover and then order a half-dozen or so of each book from Createspace to have on hand.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

Doomed Muse said:


> Actually, worst case in trad is pretty bad, too.
> 
> Worst case: you send to agents and get one who is interested. But he has a big "but" attached. Your book is almost there, it just needs some editing. Fortunately, this agent knows a great editor who is also a book doctor.


OK, let's stop right here for a moment and clarify the point nobody seems to understand.

*An internet connection and a website does not make someone a legitimate agent or publisher.*

Yes, there are cases of bad agents and bad publishers. Bad apples exist in every industry. To piggyback on Mike's comment on buggies and cars, I don't think there was a mad rush to start building our own cars in our backyards just because Toyota had a series of brake problems. People just did a little more research and bought different cars.

Your example is a con artist, not a legitimate agent. Examples of authors having to pay for editing and cover art from their "trad publishers" are not trad publishers at all. Those are called SUBSIDY publishers. If you do not perform due diligence when researching potential publishers or editors or agents, bad things can happen. It is not the industry's fault if you follow bad advice just because someone told you enough of what you wanted to hear to get you to open your wallet. Nor is it the industry's fault if you don't read your contract or if you make assumptions that are not written into the contract.

Both self-publishing and trad publishing are legitimate options. People should make decisions based off of their own needs, level of skill, resources, and goals.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> If you want to NOT market, then leave the book on your hard drive.


This is going on my wall.

B.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

To clarify, I was talking about agents, not publishers at all with most of my example. Also, I was doing a conglomeration of things that happen as a "worst case" scenario.  Most people won't have that experience, obviously. That's why it is called "worst case" and "scenario".  

Of course, most of my example is rendered moot by educating yourself on the business (which anyone should do no matter what path or paths they choose).


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## Storymagus (Jun 30, 2011)

From a UK writers POV I feel that a lot of being trad published is about the idea that someone thinks you are good enough to risk financial investment in and as writers such a boost to our esteem is what we desire. And it would be pretty cool to see your work in the window of the local Waterstones (UK BandN). Self publishing *is *too easy. Word document, jpeg image....done, and there is always that uncertainty of knowing whether it is good enough because we are the ones who are deciding if it has a place in the market. I like self publishing for the fact that whatever money I make has come from my own efforts. I don't like always having to be taken away from writing more books because I have to promote, but that, as many say, would be the same with a trad publishing route. I think this industry is getting harder to break into and I have to be honest in saying I think they make some shocking choices at times in trad publishing in what gets published and I for one would be using Amazon and Smashwords as a slushpile if I were them, not necessarily because I would see it an easy option but because there is a massive pool of talent there (once you get some sort of filter figured).

Good thread


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> There's a lot of misinformation on this thread.


What? No way. If it's on the internet it must be true.


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## MartinGibbs (Jun 20, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> This is not the _best case_ scenario. My case was significantly better than that. I pitched my agent at the end of April, 2008. She called and offered representation 6 days later. We did a round of revisions, and the book went out to editors around July 21, 2008. We had two offers three days later, and a final handshake agreement on terms three weeks later, for a lot more than $5000. Now, that was in 2008, before the Great Crash of Publishing, but I still talk to people who get offers on books within a month of their being out, and I still know debut authors who have received six figure deals in the last year.
> 
> This is not the best case scenario. It is not the best case scenario by a long shot.
> 
> ...


Mike and Courtney,

Thanks for the feedback; I fear Mike's scenario as well, which is why I say it's looking attractive, perhaps not the best route. And you are right, Courtney, Mike's is an example of what is possible. So much is possible.

Heck, I write for fun! I think I need to remind myself of that fact constantly...this is not going to get me rich, and that is that. I write to entertain and to improve my own writing ability.


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## Mike Dennis (Apr 26, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> This is not the _best case_ scenario. My case was significantly better than that. I pitched my agent at the end of April, 2008. She called and offered representation 6 days later. We did a round of revisions, and the book went out to editors around July 21, 2008. We had two offers three days later, and a final handshake agreement on terms three weeks later, for a lot more than $5000. Now, that was in 2008, before the Great Crash of Publishing, but I still talk to people who get offers on books within a month of their being out, and I still know debut authors who have received six figure deals in the last year.
> 
> This is not the best case scenario. It is not the best case scenario by a long shot.


It is the best case scenario, Courtney. You were the one to hit the long shot, and a very long shot it was. You were, as I'm sure you will admit, extremely fortunate to get agent representation in 6 days (unless of course you had an insider contact, in which case, your scenario is quite routine). If you cold-queried that agent, you were very, very lucky. Most agents, if they reply at all to a cold query, often take six months or more. And yes, once you get a deal, you're still looking at 18 months of oblivion before the book comes out.

Two publishing offers in three days is phenomenal, a far, far cry from any norm in the business (again, not for those with insider contacts, however), followed by a mere three weeks of negotiating and an advance for "a lot more than $5000"...yes, you were very lucky indeed. No one, and I mean no one, can realistically hope for anything remotely similar to your results. The best case scenario I outlined is far more likely than your overnight-sensation story.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

I think traditional publishing sounds great too.  Ideally, an author would be able to have it both ways.  Write some books under one name and self-pub them, write some books under another name and do the query-rounds.

My books have gotten interest from agents/editors, but with how nicely things have been going self-pubbing, I didn't even shop my third book around.  That's not to say I wouldn't submit my fourth or fifth book to a publisher.  I think it's great we have so many options.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

One of the things we have to remember is that 95% of everyone who goes the "trad route" never makes a penny. THAT is the worst case scenario. And does that mean that everything they wrote sucked? Not necessarily.

I've been published with small publishers a number of times. Sold short stories. Signed with an agent. Had my novels turned down by pretty much every major publisher in NY (a couple saying they loved it but...)

Do I worry if there are people out there that don't buy self-published and check the publisher to make sure that they don't? Nope. There are people who don't buy books by women, or about war, or with romance, or medieval, or fantasy, or something else. I'll never sell to everyone, whether I'm self-published or not. 

I don't even bother shopping my novels any more. I prefer self-publishing to wasting a couple of years with it sitting on a publishers desk while it is shopped and then they get around to publishing it. This is the NORM not best or worst case. If they ever came to me with a pile of money in hand (highly unlikely) I'd talk to them, but it would have to be better than MOST authors are getting these days. And Amanda Hocking is NOT most authors.


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## MartinGibbs (Jun 20, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> And Amanda Hocking is NOT most authors.


You bring up a great point--a great deal of people believe they can be the next Amanda Hocking. Heck, myself included for one brief delusional moment. That just doesn't happen to everyone.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> The best case scenario I outlined is far more likely than your overnight-sensation story.


You did say "best case scenario" not "most likely scenario."

Best case in traditional publishing wherein a debut author gets an advance that is five to six figures is rare, but it still happens dozens of times a year. According to Publishers Marketplace, there were eight different debut novelists who placed their books in the last week. It doesn't list numbers, but two of them are listed as multi-book auctions. Auction generally means six figures.

Again, we're not talking most likely. We're talking "best case." Big deals still happen in traditional publishing. Debut authors are still snatched from the slush and handed huge sums of money. It's rare, but happens frequently enough that there still may be a reason to pursue a traditional deal _for some writers._


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## Neil Ostroff (Mar 25, 2011)

I will never go back to traditional publishing. I stopped shopping my books last year after I was dropped by my agent of three and a half years. He was a top NY guy, but the climate changed and made it nearly impossible for newbies to break in.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> You did say "best case scenario" not "most likely scenario."
> 
> Best case in traditional publishing wherein a debut author gets an advance that is five to six figures is rare, but it still happens dozens of times a year. According to Publishers Marketplace, there were eight different debut novelists who placed their books in the last week. It doesn't list numbers, but two of them are listed as multi-book auctions. Auction generally means six figures.
> 
> Again, we're not talking most likely. We're talking "best case." Big deals still happen in traditional publishing. Debut authors are still snatched from the slush and handed huge sums of money. It's rare, but happens frequently enough that there still may be a reason to pursue a traditional deal _for some writers._


Eight last week...

(bad math... editing) That means that most likely (December being generally a somewhat slow month) that probably around Four Hundred new authors will be signed in the next year. Well, maybe a few more since not all agents publish their deals in PM. But we're talking almost certainly a few hundred. (Edit: And_ by far _most of those 400 or so get the $2500 to $5000 advances that are the norm right now and never see another penny)

Out of literally _millions_ of manuscripts being shopped.

While I think Michael Wallace and I are largely agreed, calling it rare is like saying buying a multi-million dollar winning lottery ticket is rare. It's putting it very mildly.

That doesn't mean that someone who really wants to be trad published shouldn't give it a try. But I wouldn't because of complaints on a forum. Or because you think you won't have to spend time marketing. There are bad reasons for going trad and those are two bad ones. If it's really what you want, that's a good reason though. And you can, of course, do both if you want to.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

shelleyo1 said:


> If traditional publishing is looking great to you, then pursue it. That doesn't mean you can't also continue to self-publish things, if you want.
> 
> Plenty of people try both waters to see which feels best.


This. There are pros and cons to both routes and in the end it comes down to what works best for you personally.


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## Kent Kelly (Feb 12, 2011)

Anecdote Wars! *pewpewpewpew*

If traditional publishing is that important to you, ask yourself why.  Do you want to connect with readers, or do you want to be an Author?  If the former, my advice is to self-publish an ebook.  If the latter, try traditional publishing for as long as it takes/you can bear and then go with an ebook.

Or you can latch onto someone else's "this is what happened to me" and be shocked and amazed when your outcome is entirely different ...


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> It is the best case scenario, Courtney. You were the one to hit the long shot, and a very long shot it was.


Acknowledged that I was a long shot. But you understand that the word "best" does not mean "average"? You can't call something a "best case scenario" and when someone says, "no, I've done better," dismiss what they say as a long shot. The best case scenario, traditional or indie, is always a long shot. "Best" means "better than all other alternatives." It does not mean "likely" or "reasonable" or "average." It is by definition superlative.

What you're saying is the equivalent of: "If you self-publish, the best case scenario is that you'll make coffee money. Nobody will read your work, you'll be reviled on the Amazon forums, and you'll never get any respect. You lose all chances at hitting bestseller lists, and you'll never make any sales."


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> Eight last week...
> 
> (bad math... editing) That means that most likely (December being generally a somewhat slow month) that probably around Four Hundred new authors will be signed in the next year. Well, maybe a few more since not all agents publish their deals in PM. But we're talking almost certainly a few hundred.
> 
> Out of literally _millions_ of manuscripts being shopped.


I don't think it's millions, but yeah, it's a lot. Any legit agency can easily receive dozens of queries every single day. Some of the big-name agents might get a thousand or more queries in a week. If it's a first book, your odds look rather like the lottery. If you've learned the craft in writing a couple of books and spent the time learning how to write a query, your odds improve dramatically, but still, it's a long shot.

Against that, we do have to consider the likelihood of making money self-publishing. That's a long shot, too, but the odds look a little better. I also find it far less frustrating when I've got a book that is only selling a few copies a month than the teeth-gnashing of years of querying. I've also sold roughly 80,000 books in the last year of perfectly good stories that were turned down by traditional publishing. There's no question in my mind that the mainstream market misses all sorts of stuff. And I'm also convinced that there are dozens of niches that publishing can't or won't fill that can be perfectly valid little markets for indies to target. The numbers for an indie are much more favorable.

Still, I'm not ready to write off the Big Six publishers. If the time comes, I will listen carefully and consider my options. That's what being an indie is all about. Options.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> I don't think it's millions, but yeah, it's a lot. Any legit agency can easily receive dozens of queries every single day. Some of the big-name agents might get a thousand or more queries in a week. If it's a first book, your odds look rather like the lottery. If you've learned the craft in writing a couple of books and spent the time learning how to write a query, your odds improve dramatically, but still, it's a long shot.
> 
> Against that, we do have to consider the likelihood of making money self-publishing. That's a long shot, too, but the odds look a little better. I also find it far less frustrating when I've got a book that is only selling a few copies a month than the teeth-gnashing of years of querying. I've also sold roughly 80,000 books in the last year of perfectly good stories that were turned down by traditional publishing. There's no question in my mind that the mainstream market misses all sorts of stuff. And I'm also convinced that there are dozens of niches that publishing can't or won't fill that can be perfectly valid little markets for indies to target. The numbers for an indie are much more favorable.
> 
> Still, I'm not ready to write off the Big Six publishers. If the time comes, I will listen carefully and consider my options. That's what being an indie is all about. Options.


We're in agreement, actually.

I have heard people say that it's in the millions, but it might be less. I think it was two years ago Kristin Nelson (a respectable and successful agent but not the "big names" like Writer's House) said that she got in excess of THIRTY THOUSAND queries the past year. Of those I think she said she signed six. So we're talking a very long shot.

I can't say I've quite written the Big 6 off. If they came to me, I'd talk. As you say, options. Options are a good thing and we have them. 

Edit: I particularly agree about niche markets. I was told that not nearly enough book stores would carry novels about the Scottish Wars of Independence in spite of a couple of editors loving the books. A niche market--medieval war stories. But there is a market out there for them, as you know. And a lot more. Westerns, gay and lesbian, and so forth that have a very hard time selling to the major publishers but that do have a market.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

JRTomlin said:


> We're in agreement, actually.
> 
> I have heard people say that it's in the millions, but it might be less. I think it was two years ago Kristin Nelson (a respectable and successful agent but not the "big names" like Writer's House) said that she got in excess of THIRTY THOUSAND queries the past year. Of those I think she said she signed six. So we're talking a very long shot.
> 
> I can't say I've quite written the Big 6 off. If they came to me, I'd talk. As you say, options. Options are a good thing and we have them.


Thank goodness for that. This week marks my one year anniversary of indie publishing. Giving up on the query-go-round was the best decision I ever made.


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## Beatriz (Feb 22, 2011)

Edward M. Grant said:


> Nope.
> 
> The worst case for an indie writer is that you upload your books and you never sell a single copy. The worst case for the traditional route is that you spend decades begging agents to read your books and publishers to buy them and never get anywhere.
> 
> The end result is the same, but the traditional route requires a lot more soul-destroying effort along the way.


Excellent post. Congratulations!


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Thank goodness for that. This week marks my one year anniversary of indie publishing. Giving up on the query-go-round was the best decision I ever made.


Same here. Not quite a year and I haven't had your sales, but it was a great decision. I don't regret a thing... ok, wish I'd known a thing or two I know now that would have helped but other than that. The best decision I ever made.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> I'm not signing away my eBook rights,


How hard was this to negotiate? Did they balk or were they pretty okay with it? I assume you kept *all* ebook rights?

And congratulations!


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> There's a lot of misinformation on this thread. If you sign with a trade/traditional publisher, they don't automatically farm out your edits, slap on a crap cover and you only sell 30 copies or something. You don't have to wait 2 years to be scheduled (though this varies from publisher to publisher). You aren't automatically dead if you only sell 10k copies.
> 
> It all depends. It depends on the publisher, it depends on the advance, it depends on a lot of things. Sweeping statements don't apply, just like sweeping statements about indie publishing don't apply either. For example, my first book with Pocket was everywhere, Wal-Mart included. I wasn't a big name at all, my advance was small, but the buyers really liked my cover and thought it was marketable, so off it went. My most recent one was in some Wal-Marts, skipped in others, and it's sold more copies in 3 months than my best selling indie has in the last year. It still made me double of what my best selling indie book has. I also took an anthology deal that was most decidedly not in my favor because it was a gamble to see if I could get more visibility.
> 
> ...


Exactly. It's all strategy, nothing wrong with going with one over the other, or even both at the same time. You have to look at what is reasonable, doable, and offered to you, make a decision and go with it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I do both. I enjoy both. I make money from both. I learn from both.


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## ChristopherDavidPetersen (Mar 24, 2011)

Mike Dennis said:


> Here's your _best case_ scenario:
> 
> Immediately after reading my post, you get an email from an agent you queried six months ago. She loves the sample chapters you sent her and wants to read the whole thing.
> 
> ...


You forgot one important detail... The publisher now owns the rights to your book. Good luck getting them back. Better to go indie so you can make in one year what the traditional publisher would pay you in three.


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## Ian Fraser (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not sure what level some folks get their figures from. I notice a lot of talk about $2500 etc being thrown around as advances. I know someone who got a 100 grand two book deal from one of the Big 6. (50 now and 50 on delivery of second book) I have to wonder whether the folks talking smaller amounts of money are actually referring to the medium and small independent presses, rather than the formal Big 6 publishers...
/2 cents worth


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

ChristopherDavidPetersen said:


> You forgot one important detail... The publisher now owns the rights to your book. *Good luck getting them back.* Better to go indie so you can make in one year what the traditional publisher would pay you in three.


Sigh. Plenty of people have fixed-time contracts (i.e. 5 years from now) or have clear and measurable return-of-rights clauses (if A = X, then rights can be returned as per XYZ). I have them in all of mine (they vary from contract to contract, but nonetheless are in there); I won't sign a contract without one.

Most of the troubles with the not getting the rights back are folks who signed contracts in the 90s. Those poor buggers really got hammered with the crappy clauses. Today, you can still get hammered with them, but you know going in that they might be there and you can haggle.


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## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

I've had quite a few books revert from major publishers and have never had any issues with getting any of my rights back.  Negotiate a proper reversion clause and this becomes a non-issue.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> I've had quite a few books revert from major publishers and have never had any issues with getting any of my rights back. Negotiate a proper reversion clause and this becomes a non-issue.


QFT.

Unless you write work-for-hire (I've done that). In that case, ask for more money


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## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I notice a lot of talk about $2500 etc being thrown around as advances. I know someone who got a 100 grand two book deal from one of the Big 6. (50 now and 50 on delivery of second book) I have to wonder whether the folks talking smaller amounts of money are actually referring to the medium and small independent presses, rather than the formal Big 6 publishers...


I think $2500 may be low, but some genres (such as romance) don't tend to get huge advances. Some get somewhat bigger ones. But I think it's safe to say that $100,000 is an outlier. You hear about people making $100,000 on a self-pubbed book, too, but that's not going to be the typical figure for most of us. It depends, of course; if your book gets "hot" and you have a good agent, you might get a nice big advance. But then if you don't earn out, you're in trouble. In general, it's best to make decisions based on more average figures, and not what a person might possibly make if s/he gets really lucky.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Cheryl M. said:


> How hard was this to negotiate? Did they balk or were they pretty okay with it? I assume you kept *all* ebook rights?
> 
> And congratulations!


They haven't asked for them. I honestly don't think publishers see eBooks as serious. When they charge as much as they do for eBooks, they sell a hundred times more in paper, so it's not much of a loss for them at this point. What they have been asking is that I price match the paperbacks. I haven't signed with anyone yet. I'm waiting. I've been consulting with my entertainment lawyer and I might be putting the books out for bid.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Raw raw rawr I hate traditional publishers roar chomp chomp never make money and they're evil plbbrt.

Raw raw rawr I hate indie publishing roar chomp chomp never make money and Amazon's evil plbbbrt.

That sum everything up about right?


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## 41352 (Apr 4, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Raw raw rawr I hate traditional publishers roar chomp chomp never make money and they're evil plbbrt.
> 
> Raw raw rawr I hate indie publishing roar chomp chomp never make money and Amazon's evil plbbbrt.
> 
> That sum everything up about right?


  LIKE


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Raw raw rawr I hate traditional publishers roar chomp chomp never make money and they're evil plbbrt.
> 
> Raw raw rawr I hate indie publishing roar chomp chomp never make money and Amazon's evil plbbbrt.
> 
> That sum everything up about right?


You have such a way with words!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Raw raw rawr I hate traditional publishers roar chomp chomp never make money and they're evil plbbrt.
> 
> Raw raw rawr I hate indie publishing roar chomp chomp never make money and Amazon's evil plbbbrt.
> 
> That sum everything up about right?


Then there's us in the middle who roll our eyes at this nonsense and just keep on signing contracts and self-publish at the same time.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Raw raw rawr I hate traditional publishers roar chomp chomp never make money and they're evil plbbrt.
> 
> Raw raw rawr I hate indie publishing roar chomp chomp never make money and Amazon's evil plbbbrt.
> 
> That sum everything up about right?


I'm interested in a link to that post, David. I somehow missed it. 


Ian Fraser said:


> I'm not sure what level some folks get their figures from. I notice a lot of talk about $2500 etc being thrown around as advances. I know someone who got a 100 grand two book deal from one of the Big 6. (50 now and 50 on delivery of second book) I have to wonder whether the folks talking smaller amounts of money are actually referring to the medium and small independent presses, rather than the formal Big 6 publishers...
> /2 cents worth


No we are not talking about small presses.

No one is saying big advances don't happen. They do. They are not the average. The average advance is to some extent a guess but almost certainly below $5000. Of course, that's across genres but don't count on living on an advance. And even a supposedly $100k one for several books isn't that much per book, or that much per payment since usually such advances are divided into payment upon signing and payment upon delivery and sometimes payment upon printing.

Still, it's what a lot of people want and I wish them the best with it.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

This is an ongoing link, but you can see how wildly advances can go... http://brendahiatt.com/show-me-the-money/


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

My experience from working in publishing is that small presses almost always pay under 10,000, often as little as 1,000. The advances paid by many academic presses are largely to cover rights acquisitions for photos and the like, which can be quite expensive. However, for Big Six publishing advances are larger, typically 6,000 to 30,000 for a first novel. Outliers on the upside happen occasionally, and on rare occasions the numbers get crazy.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

Yeah, going to echo the others. Big six will probably not pay under 5k a book. A lot of the smaller advances you hear people citing are also because they're coming from smaller independent publishers (Dorchester, Sourcebooks, Kensington etc). 

And most houses have rights reversions. My contracts specify a certain amount of time, and a certain amount of sales. If the time has passed (three years) and I sell less than X number of copies, I can request them back.

You have to look at the genre, and you have to look at the source of the quote as well.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

The reason most trades want an agent is pretty much everything is negotiable. If everything were standard, there wouldn't be a need for agents, and it's something to keep in mind when you are offered a contract. It never hurts to ask. The worst that will happen is they counter or say no, it's a deal breaker.


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## Benjamin A. (Oct 1, 2011)

It's not like you have to commit your entire soul to either side. You're signing for the book/series, not everything you ever write. If you get the deal and the terms aren't agreeable to you, negotiate or walk away. If you find it's not for you after the contract is completed, then you can walk away again with some knowledge at least. 

If I were a better artist, I'd make a potlitcal cartoon-esque picture of a books labeled "indie" and "trad pub" fighting over a scrap of meat in the middle of a ring. So much division, when we really all just want to tell our stories. Divided we fail and all. Sermon complete.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Benjamin A. said:


> You're signing for the book/series, not everything you ever write.


Unless you sign that deal, of course


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

One best selling Big 6 thriller author did talk about his big $800K advance recently. Sure sounds like a lot of money. But, it was a 3 book deal and divided into 5 different payouts spread out over a two year period all contingent upon manuscript acceptance. After taking 15% off the top and factoring in 3 books--it didn't seem like a huge advance to me, considering he usually sells over a half million HC's per title.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> One best selling Big 6 thriller author did talk about his big $800K advance recently. Sure sounds like a lot of money. But, it was a 3 book deal and divided into 5 different payouts spread out over a two year period all contingent upon manuscript acceptance. After taking 15% off the top and factoring in 3 books--it didn't seem like a huge advance to me, considering he usually sells over a half million HC's per title.


Who dat? Just curious.

$800 grrrr is better than $5k and a lot better than a poke in the face with a sharp stick.


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## Benjamin A. (Oct 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Unless you sign that deal, of course


I wonder what that contract would look like...


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

David "Half-Orc" Dalglish said:


> Something to always remember: whether here, the Amazon forums, Mobile Reads, etc, the posters are not the majority, but the vocal minority. You can learn plenty, of course, but I'd be careful about trying to make sweeping assumptions based on a few, or even a few hundred, posts you've read.


Agreed. Forum posts and replies, reviews and comments, and so forth are made by those vocal enough to post/reply. In any given group, the sentiments held could be similar, too. For instance, Absolute Write is far different in core beliefs than Kindle Boards. Amazon Customer Forums are far different in general ideals than specialized genre forums. Indie forums are far different than Stephen King's fan forum.

The only consensus we can hold true is that, among readers, there is no consensus.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Benjamin A. said:


> I wonder what that contract would look like...


It's along the lines of signing a contract _in perpetuity _ along with a First Rights Refusal for all works. I saw that contract. I laughed for a good twenty minutes.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

One thing is for sure, I wouldn't sign anything promising exclusivity unless it were for what my wife calls "FU money." As in you can walk away from your crappy job (or whatever other obligation) tomorrow


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> One thing is for sure, I wouldn't sign anything promising exclusivity unless it were for what my wife calls "FU money." As in you can walk away from your crappy job (or whatever other obligation) tomorrow


I think that quote came from Johnny Carson, but this is my favorite usage:



> We look for places where the math is right. Meaning what? Meaning that pop. is about to explode---we can predict that just by looking at age histogram---and per capita income is about to take off the way it did in Nippon, Taiwan, Singapore. Multiply those two things together and you get the kind of exponential growth that should get us all into cheers-to-you money before we turn forty.
> 
> This is an allusion to a Randy/Avi conversation of two years ago wherein Avi actually calculated a specific numerical value for ``cheers-to-you money.'' It was not a fixed constant, however, but rather a cell in a spreadsheet linked to any number of continually fluctuating economic indicators. Sometimes when Avi is working at his computer he will leave the spreadsheet running in a tiny window in the corner so that he can see the current value of ``cheers-to-you money'' at a glance.


-Stephenson (Cryptonomicon)

The names have been changed to protect the Besty.

Authors don't really make that kind of money. You have to invent something useful. (You know, something that involves math.) 

B.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> One thing is for sure, I wouldn't sign anything promising exclusivity unless it were for what my wife calls "FU money." As in you can walk away from your crappy job (or whatever other obligation) tomorrow


I've done work-for-hire (lots of smaller articles and guides). Because they are exclusive, I charge extra.


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## MartinGibbs (Jun 20, 2011)

Great discussion, everyone. Look what I've gone and started--although it really opens my eyes a lot. I'm very green and new to any type of publishing, so it is very helpful to have all of these great tidbits and to absorb the exchanges.

And David, I loved your post (rawr rawr)


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Yeah, going to echo the others. Big six will probably not pay under 5k a book. A lot of the smaller advances you hear people citing are also because they're coming from smaller independent publishers (Dorchester, Sourcebooks, Kensington etc).
> 
> And most houses have rights reversions. My contracts specify a certain amount of time, and a certain amount of sales. If the time has passed (three years) and I sell less than X number of copies, I can request them back.
> 
> You have to look at the genre, and you have to look at the source of the quote as well.


I know a couple of authors who have had advance offers under $5K from Big 6 publishers, so not necessarily. Of course, it's impossible to know what the actual average is because it's impossible to get reliable figures but even if we were talking about a $6K average--paid 2 or even 3 payments--probably for the life of the book. Do I look impressed? 

I'm not saying no one should ever consider a trad contract. That is absurd. But the original topic was 'trad publishing looking better and better'.

Not necessarily. Not realistically. It has some advantages but it also has a very big down side.


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## yomamma (Feb 10, 2011)

jackz4000 said:


> One best selling Big 6 thriller author did talk about his big $800K advance recently. Sure sounds like a lot of money. But, it was a 3 book deal and divided into 5 different payouts spread out over a two year period all contingent upon manuscript acceptance. After taking 15% off the top and factoring in 3 books--it didn't seem like a huge advance to me, considering he usually sells over a half million HC's per title.


Yeah, they can give me an 800k advance divided up a dozen ways. I'd still be cool with that. Just sayin.


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## sbaum4853 (May 3, 2010)

The slow pace of traditional publishing when compared to indie, combined with a rapidly changing industry, is why I think indie is the better route for most authors. Borders is gone. Barnes & Noble is going down. The fact that Wal-Mart, of all places, came up earlier in this thread is telling.

The big-name authors will continue selling at Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, and the Internet. But in the very near future, _everyone _else will just sell on the Internet. And if you're just selling on the Internet, indie publishing (perhaps with a print deal with Amazon ala Konrath) is a better deal. Sign up for traditional publishing now, and by the time your book is published, there will hardly be any dedicated bookstores left. Then you're on Amazon with the rest of us, but your book is expensive, your royalty is small, your payments are slow to reach you, and you have no control over anything.

I appreciate the peacemakers on this thread who want to acknowledge the validity of both routes, but to my eyes, they are not equal. Indie is a better path than traditional for the vast majority of us. I will remain indie until my sales are so stratospheric that I can get into Wal-Mart with a traditional deal, just like Amanda Hocking.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

In my opinion careers are incredibly personal things ... whether you, OP, think traditional over indie is the way to go doesn't matter all that much ... but understanding the career fully is what's most important.

One of things that was blaring in your initial post was your feelings on marketing.  Whether you're trade published or not, marketing is part of the job description.  So, claw your way into whatever you want, but be prepared to put time into selling your books.  This may mean blogging, and tweeting ... or being a total leather tramp.  Either way, you will be responsible to some degree for providing the steam to move book from shelf to hand.


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## flipside (Dec 7, 2011)

The honest answer is that it depends on the author, as each one has different needs, expectations, etc.

And let's not lump traditional publishing into one pool. Each publisher has different criteria, market, etc. (and also there's a big difference between big publishers and independent publishers.)


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

sbaum4853 said:


> The slow pace of traditional publishing when compared to indie, combined with a rapidly changing industry, is why I think indie is the better route for most authors. Borders is gone. Barnes & Noble is going down. The fact that Wal-Mart, of all places, came up earlier in this thread is telling.


Can you offer this advice without it being American-centric? After all, a South African author might not care about Borders.



> The big-name authors will continue selling at Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, and the Internet. But in the very near future, _everyone _else will just sell on the Internet. And if you're just selling on the Internet, indie publishing (perhaps with a print deal with Amazon ala Konrath) is a better deal.


Didn't Konrath and Eisler sign traditional publishing contracts with Amazon's new traditional publishing company? Hey, I got no issue with them doing what they want for their careers. But let's be honest about what they are doing.



> Sign up for traditional publishing now, and by the time your book is published, there will hardly be any dedicated bookstores left. Then you're on Amazon with the rest of us, but your book is expensive, your royalty is small, your payments are slow to reach you, and you have no control over anything.


Do you actually know this first hand, or are you just repeating what you read on the internet? My book isn't expensive (and the 2 min other trad books I have coming out this year won't be either..in fact, one will be a steal at $5.99 for a non-fiction historical book? I pay $20-25 normally for those). I'm very happy with my royalties, but thanks for caring. I'm really happy with my quarterly reports and payments. And I'm really happy about being included in discussions about things like cover art, direction in editing, pricing discussions, sales discussions, etc.



> I appreciate the peacemakers on this thread who want to acknowledge the validity of both routes, but to my eyes, they are not equal.


I'm not peacemaking. I'm talking from experience.


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## Benjamin A. (Oct 1, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It's along the lines of signing a contract _in perpetuity _ along with a First Rights Refusal for all works. I saw that contract. I laughed for a good twenty minutes.


Probably wanted it signed in blood as well. The contract must be completed after all...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Benjamin A. said:


> Probably wanted it signed in blood as well. The contract must be completed after all...


Red pen, no doubt 

(Needless to say, the author who showed it to me realized quickly that I thought it was a bad contract. I talked her out of it).


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Italiahaircolor said:


> In my opinion careers are incredibly personal things ... whether you, OP, think traditional over indie is the way to go doesn't matter all that much ... but understanding the career fully is what's most important.


Agreed. I laugh when people tell me how to run my career, especially the entire Amazon-focused comments. As an average, I sold less on Amazon than anywhere. I place my books where it is best for each project. That means DIY, that means epub, that means smaller presses, that means regional publishers...whatever. That's because I know what I want my career to look like and I am taking the necessary steps.

Person A might not care about being recognized within the Canadian SF&F readerdon, for example. I do. Therefore, Person A's career path will look different than mine.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Agreed. I laugh when people tell me how to run my career, especially the entire Amazon-focused comments. As an average, I sold less on Amazon than anywhere. I place my books where it is best for each project. That means DIY, that means epub, that means smaller presses, that means regional publishers...whatever. That's because I know what I want my career to look like and I am taking the necessary steps.
> 
> Person A might not care about being recognized within the Canadian SF&F readerdon, for example. I do. Therefore, Person A's career path will look different than mine.


That's it exactly ... no one should feel the need to justify ones existence in a profession, especially this one with all it's various options, to another.

I seriously believe there is no carte-blanche answer and I feel like sometimes, with these threads, people try to box it up and put a bow on it. Trade publishing is amazing _if_ you can get published traditionally -- but the truth is many can't. And if you can, chances are your contract will be unique to your book and the belief of the publishing house behind it. We can throw numbers out all day long, and it will still amount to nothing more than speculation.

Self-publishing is amazing _if_ you have the work ethic to make it work for you. It isn't for everyone, the easy and simplicity of it might make you believe otherwise ... but even with all that, it's still a full time job. It requires money up front, it requires the ability to divide time and self-manage. You have to be not only a writer but a businessman or woman as well. That's a lot to ask of some people. Writing is creative work, not every creative person can take that hat off with ease and suddenly parlay into being a successful entrepreneur.

My feelings on the OP and his take are this: Good for you. If you have the patience to weather the storm, the stomach to take the rejections, the willpower to preserve ... then you've made the best decision possible.


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

_"The slow pace of traditional publishing when compared to indie, combined with a rapidly changing industry, is why I think indie is the better route for most authors. Borders is gone. Barnes & Noble is going down. The fact that Wal-Mart, of all places, came up earlier in this thread is telling."_



Krista D. Ball said:


> Can you offer this advice without it being American-centric? After all, a South African author might not care about Borders.


Australia lost one third of its dedicated bookshops in the last 12 months with the closure of Borders (Australia) and the Angus & Robertson chain. I think the final tally was just under 200 stores. The UK market has also lost many bookstores over the last few years.

While the names might change, and where each national market may be in the (paper to ebook) timeline is different, what's happening is not unique to the US. More than anything, once traditional publishers lose the benefit of having all those bricks and mortar stores to showcase their wares in, one of the main reasons you'd go with them (from a sales point of view) will be gone. In essence, if you're yet to score a contract with them, because of their long production timelines, the opportunity to see your title hit the shelf of hundreds (or in some markets, thousands) of book shops will have already largely evaporated.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Agreed. I laugh when people tell me how to run my career, especially the entire Amazon-focused comments.. I place my books where it is best for each project. That means DIY, that means epub, that means smaller presses, that means regional publishers...whatever. That's because I know what I want my career to look like and I am taking the necessary steps.
> 
> Person A might not care about being recognized within the Canadian SF&F readerdon, for example. I do. Therefore, Person A's career path will look different than mine.


So true. Another example: I love writing flash fiction (to relax from writing novels), but with surprise endings (usually tying in my faith). Just received a rejection today on one. Sometimes the editors are so upset at my surprise endings that I receive rejections (that are longer than my piece!) explaining why my endings would be better if I picked a different religion. 
I think I'll collect all my pieces this year and release them in as a flash fiction collection.
The point being, is I'm doing something I've never seen done before in flash fiction, I'm having a blast writing the pieces, and they're evoking strong emotions of delight followed by anger. The fact that something I wrote can affect people to react so strongly--gives me a high.

This part of my writing journey isn't about the money. Just great ideas that needed to be put down on paper. I'll be proud to self-publish them, and I hope to delight and horrify many more readers in the future when I make them available.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Yeah, they can give me an 800k advance divided up a dozen ways. I'd still be cool with that. Just sayin.


+1

Split that payment up as much as you like over 2 years. It's still $800k in 2 years.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Colin Taber said:


> _"The slow pace of traditional publishing when compared to indie, combined with a rapidly changing industry, is why I think indie is the better route for most authors. Borders is gone. Barnes & Noble is going down. The fact that Wal-Mart, of all places, came up earlier in this thread is telling."_
> 
> Australia lost one third of its dedicated bookshops in the last 12 months with the closure of Borders (Australia) and the Angus & Robertson chain. I think the final tally was just under 200 stores. The UK market has also lost many bookstores over the last few years.
> 
> While the names might change, and where each national market may be in the (paper to ebook) timeline is different, what's happening is not unique to the US. More than anything, once traditional publishers lose the benefit of having all those bricks and mortar stores to showcase their wares in, one of the main reasons you'd go with them (from a sales point of view) will be gone. In essence, if you're yet to score a contract with them, because of their long production timelines, the opportunity to see your title hit the shelf of hundreds (or in some markets, thousands) of book shops will have already largely evaporated.


I think you're taking my comment too restricted; that's my fault for using the Borders example.

Not all authors publish with big NY companies to get into bookstores. Many go with regional presses to be in schools, universities, and local indie bookstores. Others opt to be mostly hand-sellers attending conventions. Still others opt to sell heavily online. A children's author might want to get with Scholastic and do nothing but school visits.

These things do vary in different countries. The Canadian SF&F market, for example, has a lot of support of both fans and stores. We're a small country, but have a very tightknit community. Likewise, there are regional literary presses in Canada that I'd trade a kidney to publish with (of course, I've not gotten around to writing anything that suits their market).

But again, this goes back to the comment that career is personal. It's important to be well-informed about your career. It's also important to make a decision based on facts as opposed to random caca on the internet.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> So true. Another example: I love writing flash fiction (to relax from writing novels), but with surprise endings (usually tying in my faith). Just received a rejection today on one. Sometimes the editors are so upset at my surprise endings that I receive rejections (that are longer than my piece!) explaining why my endings would be better if I picked a different religion.
> I think I'll collect all my pieces this year and release them in as a flash fiction collection.
> The point being, is I'm doing something I've never seen done before in flash fiction, I'm having a blast writing the pieces, and they're evoking strong emotions of delight followed by anger. The fact that something I wrote can affect people to react so strongly--gives me a high.
> 
> This part of my writing journey isn't about the money. Just great ideas that needed to be put down on paper. I'll be proud to self-publish them, and I hope to delight and horrify many more readers in the future when I make them available.


You bring up an excellent point: there are two sides to think. First, there is the artist side and being true to what you want to write. Then, there is the business side of wanting to make a living (assuming one is a career writer...if not, then do whatever you want I say!)

I've done a fair bit of writing because it involved a pay cheque; I won't lie. I've also written lots of crazy short fiction for the fun of it (The Amazing Transformation of Wicca Dog...seriously...what more proof do I need than that title alone?!?!).

We balance our careers and what we want to do. Again, it's personal.


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## Debra Purdy Kong (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi Martin, I saw and liked your post on amazon, and responded to it there. You've started a good discussion!

All the best,
Debra


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

sbaum4853 said:


> The slow pace of traditional publishing when compared to indie, combined with a rapidly changing industry, is why I think indie is the better route for most authors. Borders is gone. Barnes & Noble is going down. The fact that Wal-Mart, of all places, came up earlier in this thread is telling.
> 
> The big-name authors will continue selling at Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, and the Internet. But in the very near future, _everyone _else will just sell on the Internet. And if you're just selling on the Internet, indie publishing (perhaps with a print deal with Amazon ala Konrath) is a better deal. Sign up for traditional publishing now, and by the time your book is published, there will hardly be any dedicated bookstores left. Then you're on Amazon with the rest of us, but your book is expensive, your royalty is small, your payments are slow to reach you, and you have no control over anything.
> 
> I appreciate the peacemakers on this thread who want to acknowledge the validity of both routes, but to my eyes, they are not equal. Indie is a better path than traditional for the vast majority of us. I will remain indie until my sales are so stratospheric that I can get into Wal-Mart with a traditional deal, just like Amanda Hocking.


We appear to have many of the same concerns. Obviously, a large advance would change my tune-and so would a bit more creativity on the part of the big houses-but, yea, I agree with you. It's tough to pursue a path when you aren't certain what will be waiting for you at the end of the gauntlet.

I've been really happy with where Amazon has moved the industry so far. I love the freedom to write what I want. I love the creative control over the product presentation. And I love directly interfacing with my readers and being able to quickly integrate their feedback. I'm also fortunate to have a good editor and some very patient beta readers. If I was a different person in a different situation, I might prioritize other things. (YMMV and whatnot.) But I think a lot of aspiring authors could be happy traveling the same route.

B.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> However, if your sole market IS Amazon, this is hugely important to you. There are dozens of threads on Amazon about someone buying a bunch of cheap books, only to discover they were self published and then going on a "All indies suck" rampage. The old rule of thumb in business is for every person that complains, a hundred never say anything and just stop shopping with you.


Absolutely true--but hard to accept.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

jillmyles said:


> Yeah, they can give me an 800k advance divided up a dozen ways. I'd still be cool with that. Just sayin.


Me too. He wasn't complaining either, he was joking about the spread. It was this past spring in answer to a question about his big advance. He was surprised about the 5 payments spread, saying he usually received 3 payments previously and publishers may be pinching pennies. He sure didn't sound like he was going to jump ship.

For some authors Big pubs are a good way to go.

For some authors small pubs are a good way to go.

For some authors indie is the best way to go...and

for some a mixture is the best way to go.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> concentrate on writing more books, get them up for sale and let them come to you--or not.


THIS! (Thank you Lisa for the reminder!) I haven't read this whole thread (need to get busy on my wordcount for the day), but Lisa's point really resonated with me.


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