# bookclicker.com



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Hi guys,

I'm developing an author cross promo platform.

The idea is to allow you to find other authors in your genre who will promote your new release to their list.
And you can return the favor.
It's not actually a favor. You pay them to do it and they pay you.

Ideally, we can keep more of our launch budget in the hands of other authors, and send less of it directly to Amazon and Facebook for ads.

The beta is working successfully for about 200 contemporary romance authors and I'd like to get authors of other genres to try it out and give me feedback.
Is anyone willing to go over to bookclicker.com, set up a free account, and feedback their experience?

If you're a romance author, especially contemp romance, there will be an active marketplace for you to buy and sell promos already.
If you're in another genre you'll probably be the first or one of the first to set up your list.

I'd like to post screenshots to give instructions but I can't figure out how to embed an image in a post. Can anyone tell me how to do that?


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

You put the image on a separate place like your own server and then link to it here to display. You can't upload images to Kboards.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> You put the image on a separate place like your own server and then link to it here to display. You can't upload images to Kboards.


Thanks Elizabeth! Ok I'll try that now with a screenshot.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Perfect! It worked. Okay I'll post a few screenshots so people know what to do.
And the homepage copy needs to be updated so ignore the part where it says $50 per month. There's going to be no monthly fee.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

So currently you have to have a mailing list on one of these four providers to sign up.

Mailchimp
MailerLite
Aweber
ConvertKit

I'm really sorry I know it's inconvenient for people who don't use those. It's just this is a new product and I had to limit the functionality to get it off the ground. It can be expanded in the future if it takes off.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

You set up your pen names.

And your books.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

You tell it which of your lists you can use to promote other authors.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

You tell it how often you can promote other authors.
Whether you promote just one book in the email, or a number of books.
The price you charge.
Your genre.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

And that's basically it.
If you need to launch a book. You select the authors you'd like to help you. You see if they have a free date when you need it. And you book a promo.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

You can offer them their asking price. Or higher or lower if you want to bargain.
Or you can offer them a promo on your list.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Payments are all handled within the app.
The sender must confirm they sent out your book or you will be refunded.
You can keep track of the people you like working with and the people you don't with a private thumbs up, thumbs down rating.

It's not a magic bullet but it allows you to get a good group of authors in your genre to announce your book to their fans. You'll be in their alsobots and they'll be in yours. Amazon will know exactly what kind of book you've released. You'll have a higher rank. And your ad budget will be in the pocket of other authors instead of in FB's or Amazon's.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Ok, pitch over. Thank you for taking the time to look at this!


----------



## snk (Mar 23, 2017)

I didn't want to interrupt your tutorial. But now... I'm sold!

Especially when it's free and not 50$! But how are you going to profit? Will you take a % from the swap deals?

It's about time lists swaps are automated like this. I think you have a great idea and I hope I can use it in the future.

How are the payments handled? Paypal? Is there a way to filter the authors, for example by genre, list size, cost, etc.

Just a little nitpick - the font gives me headaches.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

snk said:


> I didn't want to interrupt your tutorial. But now... I'm sold!
> 
> Especially when it's free and not 50$! But how are you going to profit? Will you take a % from the swap deals?
> 
> ...


That's awesome SNK. I'll see what I can do about the font!

So regarding monetization, I was going to charge a monthly fee for it. It cost a lot to develop and I always had the intention of making a viable business out of this.
But I discussed it a lot with romance authors while in development and it just seemed it would grow faster if there was no monthly fee.
Also, the more people who use it, the more useful it is, as it's essentially a marketplace. I could get a critical mass of contemp romance authors at $30 a month, but it would be next to impossible to get say a cozy mystery writer to sign up at that price, when they're the first cozy mystery writer and there's no promos for them to buy, or anyone for them to sell to! So it would never catch on in genres outside romance.

So I decided to drop the monthly fee. I have no idea how things will go in the future regarding pricing but for now you can use the platform for free.
You can swap for free.
Launch as many books as you like for free.
And if you sell promos, a 2% transaction charge is added.
A lot of romance authors use Personal Assistants to handle swaps. And personal assistants can bill their clients weekly through the software. If they do, the author is charged 2% on those payments also.

The 2% fees don't add up to nearly as much as the monthly subscriptions would have, but I don't want to price it out of the market.


----------



## snk (Mar 23, 2017)

The transaction charge is fair, with 50$ it's too much. Maybe in the future offer a premium account with more features for a monthly fee, but like you said - the market place must remain free to grow.

Another feature that I think is important is to add a field about whether the author is in KU or wide and where their books are on sale. If I'm wide, I don't want to advertise on a list that's full of only KU readers. Or I might want to give a boost to my Google Play books and search for authors that also sell there.

What's that about Personal Assistants?


----------



## Guest (Aug 31, 2017)

Just want to throw out a little information to help keep people legal. 

FTC rules regarding paid endorsements require disclosure of paid ads in situations where it may not be obvious to the average customer that a placement or endorsement is paid. If you are swapping promos with another author as a matter of courtesy, there isn't a problem. But if you are charging a fee to promote a book, you will need to make sure the placement is clearly an ad. 

This only applies in situations where it is not clear to the average customer an endorsement is paid. Bookbub doesn't have to explicitly state its placements are paid because people know it is a promotional service. But if your newsletter is traditionally just stuff you find interesting and your own book announcements, you will need to disclose if a placement is a paid ad. It does not have to use the exact words PAID AD, but you need to make it clear this is not an organic endorsement. 

Whenever I have ran paid placements in my newsletter, I have identified them as sponsors. I will normally include a header like "This Month's Sponsor" or something (depending on the nature of the promo) so that it is clear that the placement is not an organic endorsement.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

snk said:


> The transaction charge is fair, with 50$ it's too much. Maybe in the future offer a premium account with more features for a monthly fee, but like you said - the market place must remain free to grow.
> 
> Another feature that I think is important is to add a field about whether the author is in KU or wide and where their books are on sale. If I'm wide, I don't want to advertise on a list that's full of only KU readers. Or I might want to give a boost to my Google Play books and search for authors that also sell there.
> 
> What's that about Personal Assistants?


Yeah, I agree. At first I thought people would hate the idea of a transaction charge but so far it seems a lot more popular and will help the marketplace get traction.
I've got the KU/Wide tag on the development list but it will take a while for it to get implemented. I want to see if this takes off before signing up for another development round.

The Personal Assistant stuff isn't a huge deal. If you are a virtual assistant you can create a special VA account that allows you to manage accounts for multiple authors at once. And optionally charge them a weekly fee to do it.
if you have a VA who's on the system, you can select them and give them access to most of your account, minus the payment and admin areas.

Since we have the authors' credit cards on file, the VA can request a weekly fee.
The author can accept. And payments will happen automatically until cancelled.
If you currently pay your VA manually every week this is a convenience.
For VA's it helps them get some predictability and automation in billing clients.


gif image hosting


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Just want to throw out a little information to help keep people legal.
> 
> FTC rules regarding paid endorsements require disclosure of paid ads in situations where it may not be obvious to the average customer that a placement or endorsement is paid. If you are swapping promos with another author as a matter of courtesy, there isn't a problem. But if you are charging a fee to promote a book, you will need to make sure the placement is clearly an ad.
> 
> ...


Absolutely crucial, Julie. Thanks for this.
Paid promos have to be marked as such. This is something I'll have to fix on my emails I think.
Also, all the rules on not spamming would apply.
My platform puts two authors in touch and allows for payment of the promo and scheduling. It's still up to the authors what they send, but if they send emails to people who have not agreed to receive them, they'll be breaking spam rules.

If you have never promoted other authors to your list on a regular basis, it is very important that you put thought into the best way to do it before you start. You can send an email to your list asking them to opt in or out of receiving such communications. You should also think of how you can present these promotions in a way that is attractive to readers.

Readers of active, popular genres are usually happy to receive book recommendations from authors.
They currently receive them from Amazon, Facebook ads, and marketing services. Receiving them from authors makes sense to most readers.
But you still have to come up with a way to present them with courtesy, in a way that is attractive to readers.
Things like Pick of the Day, or Weekly Reads or sponsored book of the day etc. are accepted by readers in romance so far. I'm sure in other genres readers would accept them too. If they took the time to subscribe to an author, they're indicating they like this genre and would like recommendations. But we can't take it for granted and once any of us starts accepting payment for book promos, we have to think of this new aspect of our business in a new way.
Obey the rules.
Apply the best practices.
Make our newsletters engaging.

Just like people buy fashion magazines for the ads as much as the articles, they can read our emails for the news on new books as well as the updates on our own writing progress.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

I should also say it's worth the effort.
As well as launching your own books higher, a list that sends daily book recommendations in an engaging manner is worth about $300 per month per 1,000 subs on the marketplace at the moment.

So if you're a serious author or self-publisher, it's a significant income stream to add to your business.


----------



## jason2505 (Jun 7, 2015)

I have checked out your site and it's exactly what I need to take the next step with my publishing business - I love it! Especially the payment model is more than fair. 

The only thing that irritates me is that the percentages of the open & click rates is very different between all the mailing providers, e.g. mailerlite seems to show always higher numbers than mailchimp, and convertkit doesn't show any - any advice on how to put these numbers in perspective?


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

jason2505 said:


> I have checked out your site and it's exactly what I need to take the next step with my publishing business - I love it! Especially the payment model is more than fair.
> 
> The only thing that irritates me is that the percentages of the open & click rates is very different between all the mailing providers, e.g. mailerlite seems to show always higher numbers than mailchimp, and convertkit doesn't show any - any advice on how to put these numbers in perspective?


Yeah, I know. I hate that too.
Basically, what MailChimp considers an open rate or a click rate is very different to what MailerLite defines them as.
It's not a question of one being more accurate than the other, it's just their definition is different. Like I think MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.
So if you send an email to 100 people, only 1 person opens it, and clicks it. That could be 100% click rate on Mailerlite! and 1% on Mailchimp.

All I can say is use the List Stats as a guideline, not an ultimate representation of the list's value.
Only compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
A Mailchimp click rate of 4.5% is better than a Mailchimp click rate of 4.1%, but you can't really compare it with a MailerLite click rate which could be something like 79%.

While this is far from perfect, you at least know these stats are being pulled directly from the API of MailChimp, MailerLite, etc, and not just the author's claims.

Also, there are many good reasons why someone's click rate might be higher or lower, that don't necessarily reflect the value of the list.
If I send a promo for one paid book daily, I'll have a lower click rate than someone who sends out lots of freebies, but it doesn't mean I'm worse at selling books. Just that my content is less clicky! Also, if I send out emails that don't call for a click, like a teaser chapter for my books, a bonus story in the email etc, it could be great for engagement while not creating clicks and thus lowering the click rate.

So as well as the stats, use the reputation of the author, and if you know and trust an author, take that into account too.


----------



## josielitton (Jul 21, 2014)

Chance_Carter said:


> Yeah, I know. I hate that too.
> Basically, what MailChimp considers an open rate or a click rate is very different to what MailerLite defines them as.
> It's not a question of one being more accurate than the other, it's just their definition is different. Like I think MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.
> So if you send an email to 100 people, only 1 person opens it, and clicks it. That could be 100% click rate on Mailerlite! and 1% on Mailchimp.
> ...


Thank you for this explanation! I had no idea that MailChimp and MailerLite counted open and click rates so differently. I'm with MailChimp and I was looking at some of the stats for lists on your site with my mouth hanging open trying to figure out how on earth the authors were managing that. Now I feel lots better. 

Just wanted to add that I hope all the authors using this--and selecting which lists to work with--understand why the numbers are varying so much.


----------



## Minelia Bevans (Jun 22, 2017)

Hello, I see that the only payment option is through Stripe? Do you plan on integrating PayPal as a means of payment?


----------



## josielitton (Jul 21, 2014)

How often do the list stats get updated? Just curious as I contemplate culling my list.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Here are my thoughts: I wouldn't want to promote someone else's book in my newsletter unless I'd actually read it and liked it.

However, that semi-ethics-related objection wouldn't stop me from paying someone else to promote my book [does that make me a bad person??  ].

So, I'm wondering whether I could sign up, but not accept books for promoting in my list??


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

josielitton said:


> Just wanted to add that I hope all the authors using this--and selecting which lists to work with--understand why the numbers are varying so much.


Yes, I'll have to make sure people are aware of that.
I think overtime people will get very used to judging the stats and deciding if they want to book a promo, but it will take a while for all of us to get used to this platform.

Also, the software requires that people confirm they promoted your book after the date passes. If they don't, you can request a refund.
So when they confirm, depending on the platform they use, we pull all available data on the email they sent on your behalf. You see how many people were sent the email, how many opened it, how many clicked, etc (MailChimp provides the most data). And then you can give the list a private thumbs up or thumbs down rating for your own future reference.
So you can build up your records of good promo lists over time.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Minelia Bevans said:


> Hello, I see that the only payment option is through Stripe? Do you plan on integrating PayPal as a means of payment?


It will only be stripe unfortunately.
This means you need a credit card to buy promos.
And you need to be located in one of Stripe's 22 supported countries to receive payments.
If you're outside these 22 countries, as I know many of us are, you can make your list "Swap Only", meaning you do not accept payment for promotions, but do swap promos.
Swaps are all supported the same as paid promos, they go into your calendar etc.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

josielitton said:


> How often do the list stats get updated? Just curious as I contemplate culling my list.


They get updated multiple times per day by the system to keep in sync with the list provider stats.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Chance_Carter said:


> (1) MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think (2) MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.


There's nothing you can do about problem (1), but you have all you need to correct problem (2) (if you can confirm that that's how they work).

That is,

Click percentage per open = Mailchimp click percentage * Mailchimp open percentage/100%

So, for example, if Mailchimp reports a 40% open rate and a 10% click rate:

Click percentage per newsletters emailed = 10% * 40%/100% = 4%

Alternatively, you could convert a Mailerlite click rate to a Mailchimp click rate.

Doing so would help your customers compare.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

TromboneAl said:


> Here are my thoughts: I wouldn't want to promote someone else's book in my newsletter unless I'd actually read it and liked it.
> However, that semi-ethics-related objection wouldn't stop me from paying someone else to promote my book [does that make me a bad person??  ].
> So, I'm wondering whether I could sign up, but not accept books for promoting in my list??


Al there are many ways to skin a cat!

You can promote books of other people for money, like bookbub etc.
You can buy promos for your own books from other authors.
Or you can do either one, or a bit of both.

It's set up for promo sites to list their assets and only sell, and for authors to do both, or either.

You do not have to put your list on the marketplace, although I would hope you'd consider it for the future.
You also don't have to accept any book unless you're happy with it. You get as much information as we have from the book's profile page. But most people are booking promos for books that still aren't live. In this case you can refuse them or go on the author's reputation, and agree to promote authors you know and trust.

Regarding promoting other people's books, I know many authors won't be comfortable doing this at first.
And I 100% understand this. I have felt the same way many times.

But the way I look at it, if we as a community are willing to let bookbub and other promo sites send out millions of emails daily. If we're willing to pay AMS ads and Facebook ads thousands of dollars to put our books in front of readers. Then why on earth wouldn't we be willing to tell readers ourselves about the books coming out of the indie publishing community.

These readers are on our lists because they like our books. They want to hear more about our books. And assuming we do it right, get their permission, and present book promotions in an interesting and engaging manner, they are often very happy to receive information on the hot new releases coming from the other authors in the genre. In many cases, we are actually a better and more natural fit to fill this promotional need than Facebook ads, Instagram ads etc.

So, if you do have an audience of readers who enjoy a certain genre, consider creating a separate list for those of them who opt in to receiving daily or weekly email updates of new releases in the genre. It's a service to other authors, it's a service to the readers who opt in and are interested, and it's keeping author ad budgets in our own pockets rather than sending them straight to big ad platforms.

But anyway, in answer to your original question, you can absolutely buy and not sell, sell and not buy, or do both.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

TromboneAl said:


> There's nothing you can do about problem (1), but you have all you need to correct problem (2) (if you can confirm that that's how they work).
> 
> That is,
> 
> ...


Yes, that's totally correct.
I would just need to make absolutely certain of exactly how they gather their stats. In some cases I believe they might not publicize the details.

There are actually a lot of ways in which their stats differ. It's not as simple as I said above.
For example, an open is detected using different technical triggers by the different hosts. I've sent emails to the same lists from different platforms and while the traffic ultimately generated is similar, the stats are very different.

Bottom line is, an open for MailChimp depends on a million little things they use to determine an open.
An open for Mailerlite depends on a million different things they've decided to use to solve the same question.

I decided it would be best to just give you the stats in the same form the provider gives them, and give you the source of the stats right next to it.
So you always see, these stats are provided by MailChimp etc.
And for now, while people use so many different sending platforms, and the different platforms do not have a standarized way of measuring stats, I'd say just look at the lists and the authors who own them and try to get a feel for what the stats are saying by comparing them with other lists on the same platform.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Also, I might as well say, at the risk of being controversial!

MailerLite seems to have realized that customers like high open rates and click rates, and have tailored their stats accordingly.

MailChimp seems to have gone with the approach that customers want stats to be as accurate as possible.


----------



## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Removing my endorsement. For obvious reasons.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Thanks so much Huldra! I appreciate that.


----------



## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

The group of romance authors using this service is responsible for a lot of the sketchy shenanigans happening lately in KU. Bundling shorts and presenting them as novels, clickfarms, using crappy ghostwriters to name a few. I know several people who got on some of the lists Chance showed in his screenshots without ever signing up or entering a giveaway hosted by those authors. Lists are being sold or traded and put together illegally.

The daily spamming they do has bombed email open and click rates. It has enraged thousands of readers who are done with email lists forever. I personally see no good reason why the same trends should start infecting other genres without people knowing  the damage this mass email marketing has done in romance. Not saying everyone in the Bookclicker group or Chance are scammers. But there's tons of grey with the authors involved and the aggressive spam strategies they use. Bookclicker has given a lot of scammers power they wouldn't have had before. People should know what they're getting into before jumping into this. I think Chance's following on some other forums makes many afraid to call out the dark side of this service..


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

Here's a suggested wording change for your signup page:

You say "Sign Up with MailChimp," "Sign Up with Mailerlite," etc.

People are used to "Sign Up with Facebook," "Sign Up with Twitter," phrases, but you are using them in a different way. That is, I expected that I would sign up via my MailerLite account. So, consider phrasing such as "Sign up (For MailChimp Users)," "Sign up (For MailerLite Users)," etc.


----------



## TromboneAl (Mar 20, 2015)

More comments from a feedback-a-holic:

1. Regarding signup (MailerLite):

"Need help finding your api key? Read here"

When I click "Read here," it doesn't take me to an explanation of how to get the API key. Yes, the user can figure it out, as I did, but it takes a bit of clicking and head scratching. I suggest you have your own explanation (" Click your name at the top right of your MailerLite page, choose Integrations, and choose Developer API" OSLT).

2. When I signed up, I was taken to the Account Profile page on which I was required to change my password (although it allowed me to put in the same password as before).

3. I'm finding no "Help" info. New users will need that.

4. Typo: " Here you can set up your lists and books, buy promo on the marketplace, and plan your launches."

HTH.


----------



## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Chance_Carter said:


> Basically, what MailChimp considers an open rate or a click rate is very different to what MailerLite defines them as.
> It's not a question of one being more accurate than the other, it's just their definition is different. Like I think MailerLite counts each and every click, while MailChimp only counts one click per user. I think MailerLite also represents the click rate as a percentage of the openers, rather than as a percentage of the list.
> So if you send an email to 100 people, only 1 person opens it, and clicks it. That could be 100% click rate on Mailerlite! and 1% on Mailchimp.
> 
> ...


I've used both for some time, and in my experience this is not just misleading, it's absolutely untrue. For someone running a Mailing List Marketplace, the OP seems to have got something basic very wrong indeed. Unless Mailer Lite has made a drastic change since I last sent an email, their percentages are similar to those I get when I use Mailchimp. (Mailer Lite seem genuinely a little better than Mailchimp, but their figures seem to be worked out in a similar way. Sales support this too.)



Phxsundog said:


> The group of romance authors using this service is responsible for a lot of the sketchy shenanigans happening lately in KU. Bundling shorts and presenting them as novels, clickfarms, using crappy ghostwriters to name a few. I know several people who got on some of the lists Chance showed in his screenshots without ever signing up or entering a giveaway hosted by those authors. Lists are being sold or traded and put together illegally.
> 
> The daily spamming they do has bombed email open and click rates. It has enraged thousands of readers who are done with email lists forever. I personally see no good reason why the same trends should start infecting other genres without people knowing the damage this mass email marketing has done in romance.


I've never offered a free book, a prize, anything at all to readers to be on my mailing lists. Totally organic. They subscribe to receive an email when I release a new book. I certainly won't be breaking their trust by trying to profit from that in a way they didn't sign on for. Accepting money to promote other people's books to them is selling their email address -- at least on that day. 
It's turning a client into a product.
I told my subscribers I wouldn't do that, and I won't -- maybe that's why they still consistently open my emails and click on the links and buy my books.

I really hope this shady stuff doesn't infect the genres I write.

Also, I would hope the OP had permission from the authors whose names were shown in the screen shots to share their info. I don't think I'd like my own name and mailing list numbers to be shared in a public forum like this.
But as they were there, I snooped. I checked out the book ranks etc. of the author names shown in the screen shots, and found that, while most of the authors do appear in each other's also-boughts, many of the books are doing very poorly indeed. Hardly a glowing recommendation.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Ok I just want to say thanks to everyone who's showing support and signing up.
I know I haven't provided much help documentation so feel free to message me here if you have questions.

Regarding the few people who have concerns about the site or this method of marketing. That's fine. Nothing will suit everyone.

I'll just make my position clear for others who are considering this.

This is a tool that is open to everyone to help you launch books.
It works by allowing you to find authors in your genre who are willing to promote your book.
You pay them or promote your book, and they pay you to promote theirs.
It's as simple as that. 
All you can do is make an offer or receive an offer through the platform. It's always up to you what you promote, what you put in your emails, how you present it.
If you don't think you can sell anyone's books but your own, that's totally fine. There are lots of marketing options that don't require you to do anything other than pay.

If you feel you can help get books in front of the right readers, then you're a book marketer and the chances are you have the ability to sell a lot more books than just your own. If you don't want to do that, that's fine.

I'd say it's silly to call anyone evil for doing what we all pay bookbub, facebook, and AMS to do on our behalf already.

I don't get into all the debates about who's a good author and who's a bad author.
I don't police KU or CANSPAM.

KDP polices KU so if you want to use my platform, you must have a KDP account in good standing and you must have a successful relationship with Amazon.
If you want to promote books for other authors, you need an account in good standing with one of the four highly reputable mailing platforms we integrate with (Mailchimp, MailerLite, AWeber, Convertkit). In fact, even just to sign up and view the marketplace, you must have a good account with one of these providers.

If you only want to work with people who satisfy certain conditions, or don't want to work with people who satisfy others, we have a private rating system so you can thumbs up and thumbs down everyone you want and only work with or avoid the people you want to avoid. I think that's pretty sensible and that's what the private ratings are for.


----------



## Romancer (May 22, 2016)

Bookclicker and the authors involved in it: They're the same ones who you see in the top 100 of contemporary romance. Many of them were the stuffers, a lot of them did the weird bonus epilogue stuff as shown in prior comments and are in my opinion directly responsible for contemporary romance going down the toilet. Not due to content, but due to the marketing practices of many of the authors. Daily NLs sent sometimes multiples times a day. 99 cent releases with massive ad spend (I don't know how they even make a profit, but that's their business) and just constant churning of content due to ghostwriters and such.

Not that all of those things are bad or against TOS. (Some of them are now of course) I don't love that you have to pay to play in contemporary romance, but it is what it is. 

But those same authors are coming for other genres. And this app enables them to use people's lists to do this same stuff in other genres. Cozy mysteries, UF, Sci-Fi, etc. They're making it free so they can get a foot in the door through other authors' lists since their own lists are romance and/or garbage due to all the spamming. I am not saying they ALL spam, but many do. And many of them are known or rumored to do unethical things. I don't pay attention because I keep my eyes on my own paper, but I did feel like I should say something.

This isn't some altruistic act, which I know Chance would be the first to admit. And I don't know Chance at all, and he could be totally on the up and up.

Just be careful. Also, some of these authors will never have openings for swaps or even payment because they get to the top 100 by swapping wth each other. And some of them charge up to $250 to be sent out. So. Yeah. Proceed with extreme caution is all I'm saying.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Romancer, everthing you say is fair.

Making content as long as possible.
Releasing as frequently as possible.
Advertising as hard as possible.
Ranking as high as possible.
And then doing it all over again.

That's what a lot of people do. That's what I do. 

And I guess I'm here so everyone who is interested in building a publishing business along lines like that knows of the bookclicker platform. I know there are lots of people who wish Amazon and KU were set up differently, and honestly I'm one of them. But it's set up the way it is, so that's what I deal with.

I'm not here out of altruism. I spent money building this platform and I'd like to see it used by a community of publishers who are looking to launch books as high as possible on the charts. I'll take lots of flack from people while I'm here, but I know most of that anger is directed as much against the system we operate in as it is against me personally. Is it my fault the page rate is so low, or KU is what it is? You're giving me too much credit if you think it is. But people are angry at the way things are. They're angry at the way others do business, especially when it makes a lot of money. I knew that when I opened the thread.

But I'll keep saying what I came to say and if you hate the idea, fine. At the end of the day there will be 500 publishers using this system and it will help them launch higher. I have no doubt they'll launch higher. It's simple math. You launch with 250,000 emails targeted at readers in your genre. You can't be lower after you do that.

Will it mean the best books make the most money?
No, the books with the most emails will make the most money.
Is that fair? No.

But I can't fix that. I'm selling emails. If you want them, bookclicker is free to check out and you're welcome to be a user. When I've said my piece, I'll stop talking and you can forget about me. I'm not addressing this to anyone who already hates what I stand for.

This is for anyone who thinks, hey, I write mystery novels.
Do I want to tell my readers about mystery novels and get paid for it? I'll try it.
Will my books launch higher if other mystery writers send out my books? Probably.
Does Amazon reward the hardest marketed books? Yes.
Can I stomach working with the other publishers in my genre? Yes.

You don't have to like me. You just have to think honestly about the industry you're in. How it works. And what steps you're willing to take to increase your numbers.

I'm not hating on anyone who says this isn't for them. I'm just here to make sure people who like the idea have the opportunity to hear about it. And I can take whatever flack I get while the thread is active. It's just the Internet, and the more comments, the more people who will see this.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

Romancer said:


> Bookclicker and the authors involved in it: They're the same ones who you see in the top 100 of contemporary romance. Many of them were the stuffers, a lot of them did the weird bonus epilogue stuff as shown in prior comments and are in my opinion directly responsible for contemporary romance going down the toilet. Not due to content, but due to the marketing practices of many of the authors. Daily NLs sent sometimes multiples times a day. 99 cent releases with massive ad spend (I don't know how they even make a profit, but that's their business) and just constant churning of content due to ghostwriters and such.
> 
> Not that all of those things are bad or against TOS. (Some of them are now of course) I don't love that you have to pay to play in contemporary romance, but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


So I hesitantly joined Bookclicker because I see its potential in helping facilitate swaps between myself and other authors in my genre. The tool itself has the potential to be fantastically useful. It's only a tool, and one I'd really like to be able to use for the very basic service it provides.

However, I realize that the Bookclicker app's integrity is only as strong as the authors who actually use it. What I am HOPING is that more authors who DON'T perpetuate those damaging practices will get on board and make it a healthy, useful community.

I admit one of my biggest reservations about it to start with was precisely your worry - that this monetizing of lists won't be done in a way that has our readers' best interests at heart and will only wind up alienating them (the readers) and ruining the effectiveness of author newsletters altogether. But as Chance says, it's up to the list owners to behave and he has no interest in policing their emailing behavior.

Still, if you use it, you are under no obligation to 1) buy spots on the list of someone whose practices you find sketchy, or 2) sell spots to those people either.

Also, you can do what I am choosing to do and restrict your list to swaps only, and be super picky about who you actually choose to swap with. The fact that this is possible is what makes the application so attractive to me, even though there are still several kinks that need to be ironed out where the features are concerned. I don't want to monetize my list, and I don't particularly want to work with authors who do.

Obviously this presents Chance with the complicated issue of how to pay for the creation and maintenance of the app itself (which was NOT cheap). Taking a cut from the fees authors charge each other makes sense, but that wouldn't work for authors like me who don't charge and have no interest in doing so. I appreciate that he's made it free to start with, (it's effectively in beta now, so there's no sense charging for something that isn't 100% functional as far as I'm concerned). If he gets all the kinks worked out so it's as useful as I'd like it to be, I would be willing to pay him a regular fee for it.

Of course, if I don't see a lot of the current issues being worked out, then I will just move on. In the meantime I am excited about the potential it has and want to try to help it along by using it as an author with integrity.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

TellNotShow said:


> I've used both for some time, and in my experience this is not just misleading, it's absolutely untrue. For someone running a Mailing List Marketplace, the OP seems to have got something basic very wrong indeed. Unless Mailer Lite has made a drastic change since I last sent an email, their percentages are similar to those I get when I use Mailchimp. (Mailer Lite seem genuinely a little better than Mailchimp, but their figures seem to be worked out in a similar way. Sales support this too.)


Not exactly. For individual emails, ML and MC have about the same open and clicks, but for the overall list ML has seriously inflated numbers. I have one list from a giveaway that had about 10-15% open 1-3% clicks through a Depp campaign. I removed all the non-openers after those ten emails and aren't a few more that had slightly better rates, and my list's rating is something like 70 open 60% click. It really makes no sense. I have no idea how ML came to that number.


----------



## writerlygal (Jul 23, 2017)

Thanks for sharing, Chance. I use Bookclicker & love how it automates my newsletter send outs. I appreciate having the service, very glad you made it.


----------



## Spicy Boi (Jul 24, 2017)

Romancer said:


> And many of them recently had their ranks frozen and stripped and no one knows why. I just would hate for a well intentioned author to lose their account or career over being associated with the wrong type of author/marketer.


Be very, very careful with that.

Kboards decided it's guilty until proven innocent with those authors.

The fact is, I know several (through not all) of them personally and I know exactly how they market their books. And there was *no foul play* involved.

You will say, "You're a stranger on the internet, why would I believe you? Amazon stripped their ranks so they must have done something wrong. You must be one of them. Maybe YOU are guilty yourself."

So read closely and understand me.

Amazon -does not care- if it catches innocent authors in its net. Amazon is notorious for doing just that- punishing innocent authors while real scammers get away scot-free. It has happened over and over and over again over the years. And it happened yet again this time.

*You do not need to believe me when I tell you these authors are innocent. To you I am a stranger on the internet, and you have no way to verify what I'm saying. I get that. BUT-understand this- you become ethically culpable when you libel them with a term like "the wrong type of author." In civilized discourse we operate on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around, which is what you are doing now, and what many other participants on Kboards have been doing.*

Next time, it might just be *you* who gets caught in the Zon's net. And trust me, if it does, and you have to simultaneously face down a false accusation from Amazon _and_ a witch hunt from your peers... You will really not like it.

And then you will know what these authors have been dealing with for the last month+.


----------



## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

Lots of Bookclicker romance authors are scammers and Chance doesn't care. He participates in internet marketer style schemes himself. Just like a couple other people mentioned. Go ahead, sign up for some newsletters belonging to authors from the screenshot he posted. You'll find out they send multiple emails per day. They spam their readers incessantly. Many were rank stripped and it's not coincidence. Many readers get on these lists without ever signing up for them. The foreign authors violate Can Spam left and right. I know a couple good authors who had nothing to do with it got their ranks taken.

We know the email Amazon sent the authors warned them to avoid certain promo sites. I think one promo service they mean is Bookclicker.

KU declines on Amazon's end are half the battle its true. The rest is Chance selling info to scammers over the past year. He's profited off teaching several dozen authors with no ethics or interest in a good product to page stuff, spam like crazy and rob legitimate authors who didn't play these games blind. I think the Kboards mods should let the warnings about him and his service stand.


----------



## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, wow.

Basically, my views align with AssanaBanana's. The tool itself is fine. People were swapping outside of it for ages, this just makes it easier and more streamlined to do so.

I haven't heard anything about Chance's supposed scamming ways and black hat marketing courses before this thread. Would anyone care to PM me some links/screenshots/anything? Or could a Kboarder with a proven track record of being believable weigh in?
I'm pretty appalled at the print-screen of the "jump to the last page to get your bonus chapter" that was shown earlier. It's not enough to make me remove my endorsement, but I'm somewhat less enthused at this point.

But regardless of Chance's character, the tool is just a tool.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Spicy Boi said:


> *You do not need to believe me when I tell you these authors are innocent. To you I am a stranger on the internet, and you have no way to verify what I'm saying. I get that. BUT-understand this- you become ethically culpable when you libel them with a term like "the wrong type of author." In civilized discourse we operate on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around, which is what you are doing now, and what many other participants on Kboards have been doing.*


I could believe you, a random person popping up to muddy the waters, or I could believe people like Phoenix and David Gaughran who have been trusted members of this community for years _and_ have backed up their assertions with hard evidence.


----------



## Spicy Boi (Jul 24, 2017)

MonkishScribe said:


> I could believe you, a random person popping up to muddy the waters, or I could believe people like Phoenix and David Gaughran who have been trusted members of this community for years _and_ have backed up their assertions with hard evidence.


Way to miss the entire point... The paragraph you quoted literally starts "You do not need to believe me" 

Let me spell it out again. _*You do not need to believe me*_.

The point is: *Civilized interaction presumes innocent until proven guilty. Not vice versa. *


----------



## jason2505 (Jun 7, 2015)

AssanaBanana said:


> So I hesitantly joined Bookclicker because I see its potential in helping facilitate swaps between myself and other authors in my genre. The tool itself has the potential to be fantastically useful. It's only a tool, and one I'd really like to be able to use for the very basic service it provides.
> 
> However, I realize that the Bookclicker app's integrity is only as strong as the authors who actually use it. What I am HOPING is that more authors who DON'T perpetuate those damaging practices will get on board and make it a healthy, useful community.
> 
> ...


Great post. It's crazy how people hop on a thread like this just to outright bash other authors and try to denounce them. If you don't want to join bookclicker, fine. No one forces you to. I very much agree with everything in your post above - you can use this as a tool to spread the word about your books, either through paid spots or through swaps, whatever you prefer.

I've seen that legit newsletter promotion sites like Excite Spice/Steam, Hidden Gems or ReaderArmy are available at this platform as well - in my opinion bookclicker makes these services even more transparent as you see the exact details of their lists (size, opens, clicks etc).


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

After a lot of discussion the moderators have decided to reopen this thread. I have deleted a lot of posts that do not relate directly to this service and, by necessity, some of those that respond to them. We will not look kindly on personal attacks of other members, though you are very welcome to share your thoughts and experiences regarding this site. This is not an endorsement and as always, we encourage due diligence. 
Please keep it on topic and civilized.

Feel free to PM me with any concerns regarding deletions or edits.

Evenstar (Moderator)


----------



## TellNotShow (Sep 15, 2014)

Chance_Carter said:


> Will it mean the best books make the most money?
> No, the books with the most emails will make the most money.


People. Please. This whole "The person with the biggest email list wins" thing is simply untrue.

Here's what I noticed about the books belonging to authors who use his service: 
Some of them do indeed sell lots of copies at launch. Almost none of them are selling at all within a month of launching. In some cases within a week or so. Basically, it seems that when the ads stop going out, the sales stop coming in.

Think about it. 
You can pay the big bucks for advertising -- whether through this service, PPC ads on many platforms, newsletter ads, or a combination of them all -- and if you're lucky, break even or maybe even make a profit after paying for your cover and other expenses. But you WILL get bragging rights about the rank you achieved for that short time.

That's assuming your book isn't great.

See, if your book IS really great, sure, you still have to do some advertising to get it under people's noses. But an actual good book advertises itself. Word of mouth is real.

Yes, intense advertising will sell even terrible books in the short term. And for self-publishers who believe their job is marketing, it's probably fine to make a thousand dollars or whatever from a terrible book. The quality doesn't matter to them. If it costs them $20,000 to have that book written and produced and advertised, and they make back $21,000, they are happy that their marketing skills made them $1000. And they go do it again. (Many such people hang out on the Warrior forum, I believe.)
However.
I'll say it again.
The person with great books is who actually wins, as long as they get SOME visibility for at least one of their books. That person WILL win. NOT the person who has the biggest email list at their disposal.



Chance_Carter said:


> I would say bookclicker is currently used by people who focus on marketing more than on the craft of writing.


Well, yes. Which is probably the biggest reason almost none of their books keep selling at all once the ads stop.

Look, I'm all FOR smart marketing, and can see the potential for a service of this kind. I'd have even signed up and invested a little time looking further into it, then possibly used it if others in my (next) genre signed up too -- but unfortunately, the names he showed us in his screenshots, and their type of results, and various other factors such as the one below, really soured it for me, so I'll stay away. (It's a shame really, because the idea is great.)

But in the interests of balance, if you think marketing is much more important than craft, and you believe you can successfully navigate through the potential dangers even Chance has admitted exist there, maybe the service is for you.
We all have to think for ourselves.
I wouldn't risk using this service, but you might.



Chance_Carter said:


> I know there are people in my groups who pass around csv files of mailing subscribers and put them on lists without permission. I don't ever do that and I hate that practice. But that's rampant in romance and some of the biggest and most loved list builder promos do just that. If I see a promo is going to pass around a csv file afterwards, I steer clear of it. But I don't make it my mission to condemn it.


I'll try to be careful how I word this. 
I'm genuinely curious about the legality of this.
If an individual (Chance, in this case) KNOWS that certain individuals are using his service with the intention of doing something illegal, isn't he some sort of accessory to that crime? Or facilitating it in some way? 
I believe I understand what Chance is saying, that he as an individual steers clear of being personally involved in any such particular person's promo with his own books, but I'm genuinely curious whether he's breaking the law himself by knowingly facilitating this, rather than policing or reporting it.
Surely you can't just run a service knowing others are using it illegally, throw your hands in the air and say, "Hey, it wasn't me!"
But then, not only am I not a lawyer, I'm not American (or Canadian), and I probably know less about the law than most people. I am genuinely curious about this though. It just doesn't quite seem right to me.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2017)

TellNotShow said:


> I'll try to be careful how I word this.
> I'm genuinely curious about the legality of this.
> If an individual (Chance, in this case) KNOWS that certain individuals are using his service with the intention of doing something illegal, isn't he some sort of accessory to that crime? Or facilitating it in some way?
> I believe I understand what Chance is saying, that he as an individual steers clear of being personally involved in any such particular person's promo with his own books, but I'm genuinely curious whether he's breaking the law himself by knowingly facilitating this, rather than policing or reporting it.
> ...


Most "Safe Harbor" clauses in U.S. legislation protect services from liability for things they don't know about. However, the same Safe Harbor clauses require due diligence. For example.YouTube is not required to actively police for copyright material, but they are required to A. inform their users that they are not to use the service to illegally share copyright material and B. provide an easy way for copyright holders to report infringement and C. Act immediately on such reports.

CanSpam laws are similar. Chance would have a legal obligation to A. inform his uses that adding such address swapping is, in fact, a violation of CanSpam and that the use is prohibited in the service B. remove people who he knows are breaking the law and C. If someone reports to him that they were illegally added to a list, take action.

If Chance KNOWS people are doing this and he takes no action and does nothing to protect subscribers, he could be on the hook of the FTC comes knocking. He can't claim Safe Harbor protection if he KNOWS people are doing this and he is profiting from it.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

I think bookclicker is a wonderful idea. I wish posters would focus on how to _improve_ the platform rather than trying to tear it down.

I get that Kboards' members like to vet new services. But sometimes the "vetting" process becomes acrimonious, which helps no one.

I applaud Chance for his transparency and willingness to receive (constructive) feedback regarding bookclicker.


----------



## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

The service is in a legal gray area. The owner isn't going to care. The email abuse happening in his group is already met with a shrug. 
Don't think this is just about recouping money invested in the platform and breaking a profit. Sure that's part of it, but just like another poster said, Chance needs new suckers whose lists haven't taken heavy damage by illegally swapping subscribers, sending three emails per day and the other shady stuff. You can see them starting to lose their foothold in romance. They'll be in real trouble in six months ...unless of course more romance authors join with new lists for them to feed on. Even better if they can branch out beyond romance and make every other profitable indie niche radioactive. Don't be fooled by this folks. It's not so much a service as it's an email pyramid scheme.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

TellNotShow said:


> People. Please. This whole "The person with the biggest email list wins" thing is simply untrue.
> 
> Here's what I noticed about the books belonging to authors who use his service:
> Some of them do indeed sell lots of copies at launch. Almost none of them are selling at all within a month of launching. In some cases within a week or so. Basically, it seems that when the ads stop going out, the sales stop coming in.
> ...


Yes and no. Are you a romance author? Romance competition is crazy right now. Even if you have a great book and a lot of readers, you'll struggle to get visibility if the Amazon algos do not smile upon you.

I made a lot of money from FB ads last year. This year, not as much. They're too expensive and too saturated. People love my series, but word of mouth isn't what got me all those sales. Amazon recommendations and great FB ads got me those sales.

When I asked my readers, about half of them said they found my books through FB ads and another half said they found them through Amazon recommendations (a negligible percentage found them through recs of a friend, book bloggers, etc). I asked in my FB group, so that skews the results, but it still confirms my theory that word of mouth is often, really, word of Amazon.

It's possible my books just aren't "buzzworthy" kinds of books (what does that even mean?), but all my readers will tell you they're great, so I don't think it's a quality issue.

I do know the types of books you mean, the gw trend of the month, and I agree that no one is recommending those books to their friends. But those books can still get Amazon recs and do really well.



Phxsundog said:


> The service is in a legal gray area. The owner isn't going to care. The email abuse happening in his group is already met with a shrug.
> Don't think this is just about recouping money invested in the platform and breaking a profit. Sure that's part of it, but just like another poster said, Chance needs new suckers whose lists haven't taken heavy damage by illegally swapping subscribers, sending three emails per day and the other shady stuff. You can see them starting to lose their foothold in romance. They'll be in real trouble in six months ...unless of course more romance authors join with new lists for them to feed on. Even better if they can branch out beyond romance and make every other profitable indie niche radioactive. Don't be fooled by this folks. It's not so much a service as it's an email pyramid scheme.
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


It's concerning. This new BookClicker is a big improvement over Slack or Ryver, but I need an easier way of vetting potential authors. There are many authors who pump out low-quality content or content that belongs in erotica who I'm not going to swap with. I generally don't want to swap with people who write vastly different kinds of books (my readers don't like dark romance and dark romance readers don't like my books, etc). I also don't want to swap with any authors who have new releases at crappy rankings, because I doubt their lists are any good.

Going to Amazon to check every single author I don't know is a lot of work. If I'm already doing that, I might as well set up swaps via FB PM with authors I already know and trust not to do shady things.

I'm also reluctant to keep using the service if the owner is going to take such a laissez fairer attitude towards scammers. I don't know how people got their ranks frozen, but I've heard a lot of people saying it had something to do with swaps. That makes me even more likely to just stick with FB swaps with authors I know.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Let me just explain what this platform does again. Because I don't see why there's so much drama in this thread.

And I don't know what people think I'm doing behind the scenes that deserves so much acrimony.
I don't have a cabal of evil geniuses working on destroying this industry.
I'm sitting by myself at a coffee shop in Ontario on a laptop.
I've got a reputable accountant, lawyer, and software developer and none of them are the slightest bit concerned about the legality of helping authors promote each other's books. We tie in to the API's of legitimate email marketing services and give information about the mailing lists available to the members of the platform. We don't engage CanSPAM at all, we don't send a single email to a reader, and we don't control the content of any email. We don't have access to a single reader email address.

We just list authors who are willing to promote books.

I'll post a screenshot below of the front page of the marketplace.
The lists are named after the Pen Name that owns the list, so that you know 100% who you're doing a promo with. This is important to people who want to avoid working with certain other authors for personal reasons. It's also important so that you can keep track of how well your books do with someone else's audience.

The little check mark to the right of the pen name, means that the person has given a link to their amazon profile page so that you can see exactly what they publish, whether they're wide or in KU, and whether they're likely to have the sort of readers who will read your book.

Then you see their list size, list provider, the provider's stats for that list, and the cost of doing a promo, with Swap being a price they can also set.
We have payment built into the app, and we charge 2% of transactions. Nothing for swaps.
We have calendars built into the app so you can keep your sending schedule.
And we have a launch page, which shows you how many emails you've booked on the platform for your launch.

Whether this platform is used by people you love, or people you hate, isn't up to me.
It's up to the users who decide to use it.

Those users will be able to see who else in their genre will promote their books, and they'll be able to get the word out about their book effectively and at a reasonable cost.

I know there are people on here who are vocally adamant this is a terrible platform.
But there are also people who are reading this and signing up. The marketplace is growing every day.

I'd say the fairest approach is to let each author decide if they want to use this for themselves. The platform's functionality is extremely simple, extremely secure, and extremely self explanatory.

You can't do much with it, but what you can do will make your books launch higher.
If you think launching your books higher is somehow bad for your business, I'm not going to argue with you.
If you think authors promoting books is worse than Facebook, AMS, and Instagram promoting books, I'm not going to debate that either.

If you're concerned about spam, which I for the record am, then this platform guarantees that the promos you book from other authors are sent using one of four reputable mailing list providers who do not tolerate spam.

If you're concerned about authors lying about the size of their platform, it's value, or whether or not they'll actually send your promo, and afterwards, how many people they sent it to, how many of them opened it, and how many of them clicked, as I am, then this platform goes a long way to providing you with the stats you need.

And ask yourself if this platform is going to level the playing field somewhat, and allow good writers who spend more time writing than marketing, to launch their books just as high as marketing focused people do.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

And here's a screenshot of my Launch Page for an upcoming release.
It shows how many emails I've got booked from other members for each day of the launch.

Solo means my book is the only one promoted in the promo.
Feature means mine is the first book promoted in a multi-book promo.
Mention means it's a later book mentioned in a multi-book promo.

I think keeping things organized and transparent like this improves the quality of the promos authors can send. They can set a fair price and aren't pressured into spamming, because their stats are on display. Send good promos, get better open rates, charge more.

The idea is simply that it encourages us all, as a community, to take over more of the work of promoting books, so that we're less reliant on Amazon, Facebook, Bookbub, etc.

My book is contemporary romance so that's why there's so much inventory available. If it's another genre, there would be less authors to book promos from. But hopefully that will change as more authors decide that they want to promote books, and have their books promoted by authors.

I know I could get this exposure from Facebook and AMS, but now I can get it from authors, and pay them what I would have paid Facebook. That's it, that's my platform that so many people are opposed to.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2017)

Chance,

I think a service like this does have value. I don't know you personally nor have we ever done business, so I can't and won't get into the drama. I will, however, reiterate my point that if you KNOW of people using your service who are swapping their lists, you do have an ethical and legal obligation to act. If you have not done so already, you should

A. update your site TOS to remind people that it is a violation of Can-Spam and most anti-spam laws to "swap" mailing lists or to add people to a list without their consent, and that members who do so will be removed from the group.
B. Act on point A and remove people whom you know are violating the law

It is easy to say that two authors breaking the law doesn't concern you, but when people piss in the pool, we all have to deal with the stench. Because when a critical mass of readers get fed up with spam, they will take it out on ALL AUTHORS and stop signing up for newsletters. 

We have already seen the damage that bad players can do. Too many readers no longer leave reviews because a handful of bad actors engaged in horrific behavior (stalking, harassment, physical threats). Too many readers no longer trust reviews at all because bad actors bought reviews by the hundreds. Now a growing number of readers don't even trust bestseller lists because of rank manipulations. This behavior hurts us all and hurts our industry. As a service provider who is facilitating the program, you have an ethical obligation to not only discourage the behavior but take proactive steps to mitigate it on your platform.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Folks, rigorous vetting and criticism of the Bookclicker service is fine, including reasonable speculation about larger negative effects this type of marketing might have on genres, on Amazon's posture toward authors, and on readers' willingness to subscribe to authors' email lists. But name-calling directed at Chance or at other individuals will not be tolerated (some deletions and edits have been made), and posts in this thread do need to focus on Bookclicker, not on other services/groups Chance runs. We understand that some of you see all his activities as interconnected. Nevertheless, the focus of posts in this thread needs to be on Bookclicker.

Chance, it looks like we haven't placed in our vendor-rules boilerplate in the thread yet, so here it is:

Greetings! You're welcome to promote your business and website here in the Writers' Cafe.

Now that you have an official thread, you'll want to add your listing to our Yellow Pages, found here: http://www.kboards.com/yp/. The listing is free to KB members and is completely self-service; you can add and edit your listing from the page. More information on our Yellow Pages listing can be found here.

In your thread here, we ask that the same basic rules be followed as we have for authors in the Book Bazaar: you may have this one thread about your service and must post to it rather than start a new thread each time. New threads about the service will be removed. Please bookmark this thread so that you can find it again when you want to post. You may not make back-to-back posts to the thread within seven days. If someone responds (as I'm doing with this post), you may reply to them, but otherwise you must wait seven days. Please note that very short or (one- or two-word) posts with no meaningful information are discouraged and may be deleted at the moderators' discretion. Lastly, your posts and images will need to meet our "forum decorum" guidelines, which is the case for every member.

Note that members are allowed to provide civil and honest feedback about your service to this thread. This feedback may include criticisms as well as kudos. You may respond in a civil manner. Members may also ask questions -- about how the service works, for example, or what they will get for their money, or whether your service adheres to Amazon's terms of service.

Disputes between you and clients should be handled off-site.

Thanks,
Becca
KBoards Moderator

_(Note that this welcome does not constitute an endorsement or vetting of a service by KBoards. Members should do due diligence when considering using a service.)_


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Are comments/questions about Chance's own publishing practices allowed? I would think that the personal business practices of the person offering the service are an important part of deciding whether to do business with them. If they cut corners, cheat, break TOS as an individual, it's fair to assume they would consider these same things okay for the business they're pimping, no?


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Ok thank you Becca and Evenstar for moderating this.
I appreciate the job you do and I'm sorry this post has required supervision.

And to Julie's point, I do 100% agree with you. If people are doing something unlawful or what I deem immoral, basically using bots to climb the charts, or ripping off other authors by not sending promos that have been paid for, I kick them out of any group I own.

And I don't turn a blind eye to spamming.
I didn't mean to imply I don't care when other people do it.

I just know in romance it's really widespread for people to gather contestant entrants on a plain, unlocked, unprotected spreadsheet, and then send it to all the promo participants. Technically that's probably legal since all the authors were on the contest page etc, (I'm not a lawyer), but I know for a fact that it's highly likely such spreadsheets will get swapped around, especially when so many romance authors share the same Personal Assistants, etc. So I steer clear of those promos not because I know they facilitate spamming, and not because I think the people involved in them share the lists unlawfully, but because common sense tells me that's almost inevitable with an unprotected spreadsheet file. At least some of the time.

Basically whenever anyone comes to me with a promo based on gathering a spreadsheet of emails, instead of using something robust like bookfunnel, I tell them off, I tell them I don't think it's smart to pass around a csv, but I don't get involved in preventing it, because if the file is kept safe, it's not actually illegal or unethical (probably). I just don't think the file will be kept safe based on human nature.


----------



## Guest (Sep 7, 2017)

Chance_Carter said:


> because if the file is kept safe, it's not actually illegal or unethical (probably). I just don't think the file will be kept safe based on human nature.


No. Whether or not the file is protected or "kept safe" has nothing to do with the law. If author A has a mailing list and gives that list to author B, whether or not the list is protected is not even part of the equation. The law requires that the addresses not be shared in any way, shape or form without the subscriber's consent. Period. Full stop.

If I subscribe to your mailing address, I give you permission to email me. I did not give you permission to give my email address to other people. The SECOND you give my email address to someone else, whether the spreadsheet is protected or not, you broke the law. And if that person then adds me to their email list, they broke the law.

In regards to the contests you described, they CAN be legal IF, and only IF, the person running the contest has explicitly stated that email addresses will be shared with contributing authors. There has to be something, normally a disclaimer that says "By entering this contest, you agree to have your email address and contact information shared with all participating authors." If there is no disclaimer, then the sharing is illegal. It isn't a gray area. There is no middle ground.

This is why when you sign up for most services these days, they make you check off a half dozen boxes giving them permission to do various things with your data. Because the law requires that.


----------



## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

In theory, this is solving a need. And it looks like a nicely designed piece of software. So kudos for that. In practice, though, it wouldn't be something that I would be into doing. Every time I mail my peeps with another author's books, I am eroding my "email capital." I don't mail often, unless it's something that I think they'll be interested in (like a new book, bless 'em). I don't want to expend that capital on things that aren't related to my books. Selfish? Possibly. But my list is my most valuable marketing asset, and worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to me. Probably millions. I guard it jealously.

Also, there's the unsaid contract between my readers and me. They signed up for news on my books, not Joe Author who's paying me $50 to send out an email. 

That's just me, though. Others will have different views, and it certainly looks like the tool makes it easier to swap.

(And, as a repentant lawyer - although not in the business of dispensing advice any more - I think Julie is right on the legal responsibilities. I'd be pretty careful if this was something I was facilitating as part of a commercial transaction).


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Yes, Julie.

That's what I was trying to say too.

If they have a contest where a reader agrees to be on ten random authors' lists to enter, it's legal (I presume), but still a really bad idea if the way the signups are distributed afterwards is an unprotected file. So I steer clear of those. And I discourage them.

Lots of people in romance arrange contests like that. I don't.

Anyway, my involvement in list building is taking part in the odd bookfunnel promo and running FB lead gen ads.
Bookclicker.com is not a list-building platform.
It doesn't do anything to a list. It doesn't add readers to lists.
It just shows you stats about the lists authors already have.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

boba1823 said:


> That's why I'm hoping it is possible, or will be in the future, to just buy space on other people's lists with Bookclicker and not sell space on your own :


Boba, the platform assumes you'll promote other people, and get them to promote you.

To sign up, you have to link with a supported mailing platform.

But I don't force you to buy or sell once you're there. You can do whatever you like. There are many promo services on there and they're open to selling you space in an email and don't want anything other than your money.


----------



## SuzyQ (Jun 22, 2017)

I've heard a lot of readers getting newsletters they didn't sign up for. Are you saying that people are using your service to do that? Coz that's what it sounds like...


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Monique said:


> Are comments/questions about Chance's own publishing practices allowed? I would think that the personal business practices of the person offering the service are an important part of deciding whether to do business with them. If they cut corners, cheat, break TOS as an individual, it's fair to assume they would consider these same things okay for the business they're pimping, no?


Any questions/comments that relate directly to Bookclicker are fine. In contrast, questions/comments about Chance that have no connection to Bookclicker beyond "the same person did both these things" probably aren't. Between those two poles will be a whole lot of gray areas. Moderators will need to make case-by-case calls, and that will take time, as we need to discuss these decisions with one another and reach consensus. If someone has information they think is fair game, but they aren't certain, they can always send it to the moderation team for a look: Ann, Betsy, Evenstar, and me. For something like that, reaching one of us = reaching all of us. Lastly (speaking generally, not just about this thread), it's worth keeping in mind that some posts we end up moderating would have passed muster had the same content been conveyed in somewhat different words. So if there's something you want to say, it's worth thinking about ways to say it that are most likely to jibe with our Forum Decorum.

Speaking personally, no, I don't think we should _assume_ that because Chance did something he now labels "shady" in publishing his own work, Bookclicker is also "shady" in some way. Some people are utterly consistent, behaving the same way in every situation they find themselves in, forever. Others behave more cautiously in some situations than in others. Still others change over time. So ... I don't assume. If there does turn out to be something shady about Bookclicker, this thread can get the word out, but only if it remains open.


----------



## Positive (Jul 23, 2017)

I would like to thank Chance for giving us Indie publishers the opportunity to compete with trad. publishers' huge marketing budgets. In my genre, advertising is necessary if you want to make a living from your writing. Therefore, gaining easy access to effectively promote my books with other authors is a tool that I will sign up for. I also value your transparency and nerves of steel. This isn't an easy group to stand up in front of (sadly). I just hope there are also authors in here that focus on their own game and are enthusiastic about this opportunity.


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

Mark Dawson said:


> In theory, this is solving a need. And it looks like a nicely designed piece of software. So kudos for that. In practice, though, it wouldn't be something that I would be into doing.


Yes, exactly. This, I would say, is a completely valid reservation.

The platform allows you to promote other people's books.
And it allows you to get them to promote your books.

_Via email._

It is completely up to each individual whether or not you want to have your books promoted via email, or promote other people's books via email, and if you don't want to do either of those two things, this is not going to be for you.

If you decide your list is worth more to you being used in other ways, that's a valid reason not to use it in this way.
If you decide that the way you've gathered your list would make it unacceptable to promote other people's books, and you don't want to ask their permission to do so, that's valid too.

It's common sense. Why rent out your Ferrari for $50 a day when you need it yourself? And you don't need $50. And you've got a hot date tomorrow.

But many people have a list of 10,000 readers of military sci fi, or whatever other genre you want to use as an example, and they don't realize that this is an option. They don't realize that those readers would be happy to get military sci fi recommendations from a military sci fi author. And they don't realize how much money other military sci fi authors are willing to pay them to do that.

If your readers like the recommendations, and you're making a good fee for offering the service, and you've gotten your readers' permission to email them in this way, it's a good option for some people.

The more difficult part of this thread for me hasn't been that people have a better use of their mailing list, but that some people imply or state outright that it's scamming to do this.

I don't see how it's scamming to tell my readers about books they like, once I've got their opt in to do so.
In fact, if you use bookbub to email readers about your book, or any other email promo service, then I think it's hypocritical to say it's scamming for authors to do it. Why can a marketing service do it, and not an author, if they both seek the same permission from the subscribers?

Also, if you don't already have an audience that reads your genre, then you must somehow get your book in front of that audience using some form of advertising. If you want lots of sales. So, why not get authors in that genre to sell you that advertising? Is that scammier than getting Facebook and AMS to do it for you?


----------



## Chance_Carter (May 24, 2017)

SuzyQ said:


> I've heard a lot of readers getting newsletters they didn't sign up for. Are you saying that people are using your service to do that? Coz that's what it sounds like...


To be clear, I have nothing to do with how people build their mailing lists.

I'm not going to give you the list to use on the platform. You bring your list, which I assume and hope you built by gathering fans of your books.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

As someone currently using the program, I thought I could offer a few insights.

First, I should say that I only intend to use Bookclicker to do swaps with other authors, and only swaps. I share their book with my list on a date of their choosing, and they share my book with their list. Simple 1-to-1 trade, services-in-kind. I don't intend to charge for spots in my newsletters, and I also don't plan to pay, and so far I haven't had to - other authors are requesting a swap with me and offering a spot on their newsletters as payment. It's super easy.

I've been doing newsletter swaps with other authors in my genre for a little over a year and one thing I've learned since I started is that this method is currently the best (for ME) outside of a Bookbub feature. Because my only cost is sharing a book with my newsletter, the ROI is fantastic, even if a book gets very few clicks. The frustrating part of the process when I started was that it was very difficult and time consuming to track, not to mention I had no way of easily verifying that the other author actually SENT my book out to their list or what their open/click rates were for that newsletter. This tool will hopefully provide that data for me so I know for sure whether a fellow author in my genre is worth cross promoting with again.

I've used Bookclicker to set up a few mailing list bookings with other authors and it's been an incredibly smooth process. There are features that I WISH the tool had that it doesn't (yet) but Chance seems very receptive to doing improvements to ensure a positive user experience. One of those will be tracking which lists you do or do not want to do business with. I have yet to see a booking all the way through to completion with another author yet to see how it all plays out after the fact, but I'm looking forward to that part. I like to see data, and I am super curious whether these couple authors I am swapping with will prove to be worthwhile to tick the little "thumbs up" button next to their names.

My worries about the tool, like many of you, are both about the general integrity of the users, as well as the potential dilution of this method of promotion. I recognize that some of the other authors on there may be engaging in questionable practices with their lists. There is a clearly stated item in the terms of use for Bookclicker that covers stuff like "don't do illegal things." I don't know how much clearer it needs to be. However, the owner of the tool (Chance) does need to be diligent because there's a strong chance not everyone on there will be completely aware of what those laws are and whether they're breaking them, OR, like I have seen a lot lately, will be looking to exploit the gray areas (which SHOULD be something the owner keeps an eye on, in my opinion). Either way, I would LIKE it if Chance had a more solid stance on these things and actually stood up for those terms and stated that he's willing to ENFORCE them. In other words, be aware of what your users are or are not doing, even if it's a gray area, and deal with the people who are misusing the tool and violating Bookclicker terms of use. And maybe educate the ones who aren't outright rulebreakers but are traveling down a path of " p*ss ing in the pool" so that the tool remains worthwhile for all of us to use.

But so far most of the authors I've encountered since signing up for Bookclicker are not engaging in shady practices so much as they're perhaps abusing their readers a bit when it comes to overdoing the newsletter sending. The fact that the tool allows authors to easily monetize their lists means the authors who were primarily in this gig for the money to begin with are only seeing dollar signs and have forgotten how much the READERS matter here. The two authors I scheduled my first few bookings with send out newsletters DAILY. This seems excessive to me (I send my "circular" style newsletters once a week and I allow my subscribers to opt out of receiving those particular blasts). I have no idea whether the readers these authors have on their lists have opted IN to receiving a daily newsletter.

Actually, I DO know, because one of the options you have when you set up a booking on Bookclicker is to subscribe to the other author's list. So because of this, I KNOW I did not get an option to sign up for daily blasts from these particular authors. THIS IS NOT COOL. But it isn't Bookclicker's fault. And it is also just my opinion, perhaps there are readers out there who like getting emailed daily by an author about books that are not that author's books.

I like that newsletter signup feature of Bookclicker because now I know that I perhaps won't be as crazy about re-booking with these authors because I disagree with their emailing practices. My concern is that the daily blasts to their list will result in those readers viewing their newsletters as "noise" and just tune them out after a while. And before anyone says, "But Bookbub sends out daily newsletters," Bookbub IS A PROMO SERVICE. That's what people expect of them. They can get away with it. They also have bajillions of subscribers who signed up for them to receive daily newsletters. Nowhere in the signups for these two Bookclicker authors did I see a warning that I should expect daily newsletter blasts from them.

As an AUTHOR, I work to be attuned to what my readers actually want because I want to make sure they keep opening my emails. I would much prefer to swap with authors whose newsletters are actually engaging enough to their readers that they aren't likely to get tuned out or flagged as spam for emailing so often. I want to trade with authors whose readers genuinely WANT to open their emails because they trust the author to share worthwhile stuff with them, and I am skeptical that authors who send daily blasts care enough to maintain that level of reader loyalty for very long.

However, all those concerns really have nothing to do with the Bookclicker program itself, or Chance's attitude about what kind of diligence is required over his user base. If the tool works well, and enough genuinely reader-centric authors start to use it, it CAN be a fantastic community worth sticking around in. The tool can facilitate the swapping of newsletter spots between people like me and other like-minded authors. Or it can facilitate paid bookings for the other kind of authors, too. If it DOESN'T attract enough reader-centric authors and is only filled with daily spammy authors who charge/pay for spots in each other's newsletters then I will just quietly back away from it (as the readers likely will back away from those authors). The tool is only going to be as strong or successful as its user base. If the bulk of users perpetuate emailing practices that alienate readers, there won't be much worth trading down the road. They'll have blown all their "email capital" as Mark Dawson said and will have to move on. I really hope that doesn't happen because I genuinely LIKE this tool.

What I wouldn't mind seeing as an adjunct to this tool (which is just a fantasy, I realize) is more reader-centric education for authors. Less "how to make an extra buck from your gullible subscribers" and more "how to make sure your readers keep loving you enough to open your newsletters."

But unfortunately the best we are likely to get is some variation on "don't be a [jerk]."

_Censored a naughty word. - Becca_


----------



## writerlygal (Jul 23, 2017)

I have a large & active list that loves book recs. I use bookclicker web app b/c in my view it's a new & improved version of the swap website I was using before. That site got some things right but there's a whole bunch more that could be a whole lot better. I think bookclicker improves on a lot of it & will keep making improvements. I'm an author who likes to sell as many of my books as possible & the best way to do that for me has been newsletter swaps. They're free compared to FB ads that cost an arm & leg & I'd rather swap with other authors than pay FB. I only swap or buy, I don't sell but that's prob b/c my list is always full anyways. In my experience from using the other site in the past & now bookclicker most authors want the swap b/c the most valuable thing is a send out of our own book. I understand OP's point of monetizing a list sitting idle in b/t releases though. I'm sure there will be a few of ya'all who want to sell spots or only buy spots but I'm a quid pro quo kinda gal so I'm a swapper.


----------



## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

I've tried it. So far, it's been a tool. It wasn't a miraculous Fairy dusted boost to the top, nor was it a descent into the snake pit of scammer hell, it was just a tool. 

The first time I requested a buy spot on someone's list, was accepted, then I had to cancel cause my dates changed. 

The second time I requested two spots on two lists (both buys.) One request was denied, the other accepted. The date came and went, the newsletter went out with me on it, which I got a copy of cause I chose to be auto signed up for lists I'd be on. My stats had a bump that day as expected. The next day I got the verification that it had been sent, including the click/open rate of the NL that day. 

The next time I tried it I didn't find a fit. Some I dismissed cause looking at their author page on Amazon showed me they weren't a good match. Others I dismissed cause their prices were out of whack with what their own book rankings showed. (You want how much? Lol, no.)

I was looking to buy, not swap, cause I had nothing to offer in return. Was just looking to bump an older title a bit while it was still at 99 cents, before the price went back up, and as ny newsletter had already gotten my heads up about it when it first went on sale I didn't really wanna nag them again but just wanted a fast, quick, relatively cheap mention on someone else's list, just to see. The few I was interested in trying were not open the pretty shortly approaching date I wanted so I booked a spot on excitespice instead.

The site itself was easy. So far I've experienced both being accepted and denied, cancelling and completing, and not finding a fit and booking elsewhere. 
Was a nice tool to have in my toolbox. I hope the selection for not-contemp-bad-boys grows. It was time consuming trying to find a good fit as I did go to author pages and flip thru catalogs instead of plugging a open date on a promo website unaware of who I'd be sitting beside, like I ended up doing on excitespice instead the last time, but both have their pros and cons.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

Going Incognito said:


> Others I dismissed cause their prices were out of whack with what their own book rankings showed. (You want how much? Lol, no.)


This is the thing I'm seeing that just makes me shake my head and I didn't even go so far as to check their book ranks. Authors can set whatever price they want, and many don't seem to have a good grasp on reality where the value of their list is concerned... There's a saying about fools and their money... I highly doubt most of those lists provide a ROI good enough to justify what the authors are charging, but if other authors want to pay that much there's nothing stopping them.

For example, I've done regular swaps outside Bookclicker with one of the authors who is signed up for it now. The author's list is comparable in size to mine (around 15k subscribers) so it's a pretty even swap for us. Their Bookclicker rate for a solo spot is set to $100. That charge is the equivalent of what Bookbub charges for a list more than 10x that size (I did some napkin math and a list my size in my genre would be worth under $10 per feature based on Bookbub's numbers).

Now, maybe a very healthy list of that size COULD net me a 100% ROI, but I know for a fact this particular list doesn't, because I've swapped with this person before. $10 is more on par with what I think it's worth based on what I've earned from a swap. So Bookbub's rates feel like an excellent basis for comparison and what I would use IF I decided I wanted to pay someone for a feature.

I'm betting with the features the tool has that show the open/click rates for newsletters, it will more than likely help curb that kind of thing. The more information we have about the lists we are swapping with, the better.


----------



## snk (Mar 23, 2017)

AssanaBanana said:


> This is the thing I'm seeing that just makes me shake my head and I didn't even go so far as to check their book ranks. Authors can set whatever price they want, and many don't seem to have a good grasp on reality where the value of their list is concerned...


On the contrary! I suspect that those authors have a better grasp on what their list is worth to _them._ They don't want to flood their subscribers with constant advertisements that'd make the readers wary of ever opening another mail from them. But if there's someone that really wants to use their list, then they'll have to pay up. Remember you're not in the advertising business, you're a writer and your fans are much more valuable to _you_ than a promo list. So if you're going to risk pissing them off with an ad, it should be worth it.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Going Incognito said:


> Others I dismissed cause their prices were out of whack with what their own book rankings showed. (You want how much? Lol, no.)


Hopefully, the market will eventually cause prices to align with reality.

It'd be great if there was a way to see how many successful paid mailings a particular list has completed (along with an overall feedback score). That way, list owners could see whether their lists are competitive on Bookclicker.

List owners who have completed fewer mailings than others might be prompted to make adjustments (lower prices, increase engagement, etc.) to attract more customers.

(This feature might already exist in Bookclicker. I haven't looked.)


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

I've just seen this. A couple of observations.....

I cant read the how it works page. Centering is good for titles, not for text.

I seriously dont want to sign up, just to find out if anyone is covering my genre or not. You should be showing some detail of what goes on, which anyone can see without signing up, which will help them to decide to sign up, or not. I want to find out if the site will work for me, before I sign up. (Being free is not the point - having 100's of registrations on sites I dont use is the point, and the junk mail which comes with them).

I'm Space Opera. I want to see at a glance how many Sci-fi and SO authors you already have, because my list isn't going to start that genre off for you.

Its an interesting concept, but nothing showing so far to make it worth the hassle of signing up.


----------



## Sati_LRR (Jul 10, 2017)

A word of warning, the OP has already engaged in activities that violate CAN-SPAM and even admits as much, scraping emails from people who at one point or another joined the Bookclicker Ryver chat, and also asks not to be reported.

At the end of July I received the following email from Chance.



> Please forgive the style and font of this email. I'm using my author template so you're not seeing official bookclicker branding here! Also, you're receiving this email because I was able to get your address from the Ryver group. Please don't report me as spam!
> 
> This email is being sent to the entire Ryver group so if you're already on the early access list for the software, don't worry, you're still on the list and I'll be sending out emails to process the payments and get you onboarded next week.


I did not give my permission for my email address to be used in this way and yet that didn't stop the OP from sending that email and further newsletters, days later, from another email address.

In August I received SEVERAL emails from bookclicker bombarding me about this service, with email content written in such a way that assumed I was onboard. Again I did not state my interest in this service or sign up to this newsletter, EVER. I have since unsubscribed so don't know if people are still receiving unsolicited emails.



> Thanks so much for your patience the past couple of weeks. I'm going to start onboarding early access people onto the software in the next few days, so if you're on the early access list, expect to see a paypal invoice from me. If you happen to receive two invoices just let me know and I'll cancel the duplicate. For some people I have a pen name email and a business email and might accidentally invoice both. If you're not on the early access list, just reply to ask about it.
> 
> Once your invoice is paid I'll be in touch to get you started. I'm very excited to get people onto the platform, which has been designed from the ground up to help us launch books as consistently and effectively as possible. I have no doubt it will make all of our books launch higher, more reliably, and at less expense.


So word to the wise: the OP has no qualms about using email addresses he is not entitled to for his own personal gain. And while this is not technically about the service itself I do believe people contemplating using it need to know about his previous unauthorized use of email addresses and untrustworthiness.

_Edited to remove email addresses.
Evenstar, Moderator_


----------



## 97251 (Jun 22, 2017)

The service that's similar is bookboast.com 

I like bookclicker's possibility of buying slots, because, as a new author, I don't have a mailing list. 

Issues about Chance's spamming are concerning, but I think bookclicker's NL swap service is superior to bookboast's. I hope it works.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

snk said:


> On the contrary! I suspect that those authors have a better grasp on what their list is worth to _them._ They don't want to flood their subscribers with constant advertisements that'd make the readers wary of ever opening another mail from them. But if there's someone that really wants to use their list, then they'll have to pay up. Remember you're not in the advertising business, you're a writer and your fans are much more valuable to _you_ than a promo list. So if you're going to risk p*ss ing them off with an ad, it should be worth it.


Not exactly. The original pricing schemes for Bookclicker members' swap fees was based loosely on what authors were paying Facebook per ad click. They thought, "Hey, if FB can charge ME $0.20 per click, surely clicks on my newsletter are worth that much!" And then they arbitrarily decided their newsletter clicks were actually worth that much. Without having any real data (i.e. sales numbers) to back that up. There were some conflicts that occurred as a result. Authors agreed to pay for clicks, got what they paid for, then balked when they realized that those clicks didn't actually translate into an appreciable number of sales.

Any author who has paid for newsletter promo services like Bookbub and the smaller counterparts pays attention (or they should) to how much they EARN from their promos. This is why I stopped paying for those newsletter promos (except for Bookbub). At the very least, I expect a 100% ROI or I simply won't use them again. It's bad business if I'm not making my money back on an advertising investment. I'll try it ONCE but if it doesn't pay off, I won't try it again, and most of these lists can't guarantee a return the way Bookbub can. Even Bookbub's promos aren't guaranteed, but they have enough data to back up what they charge and most of the features I've booked with them HAVE paid off in spades.


----------



## Guest (Sep 9, 2017)

AssanaBanana said:


> For example, I've done regular swaps outside Bookclicker with one of the authors who is signed up for it now. The author's list is comparable in size to mine (around 15k subscribers) so it's a pretty even swap for us. Their Bookclicker rate for a solo spot is set to $100. That charge is the equivalent of what Bookbub charges for a list more than 10x that size (I did some napkin math and a list my size in my genre would be worth under $10 per feature based on Bookbub's numbers).


Huh? Those prices might be inflated but comparing prices to how much Bookbud charges is a _really_ bad idea. Everyone is expensive compared to Bookbub. Bookbub is able to provide such a great deal because they're highly selective in who they choose to feature. They're providing a service to their readers. With them you're not just a customer, you're also a content provider.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Maalik said:


> Huh? Those prices might be inflated but comparing prices to how much Bookbud charges is a _really_ bad idea. Everyone is expensive compared to Bookbub. Bookbub is able to provide such a great deal because they're highly selective in who they choose to feature. They're providing a service to their readers. With them you're not just a customer, you're also a content provider.


Huh? In the real world of economics, what you've outlined about BookBub above leads to higher prices, not lower.

What you're also implying in your statement is that with these author NLs there's no vetting and what service there is has nothing to do with readers. That it's simply nothing more than a fairly passive revenue stream for authors who fly in the face of economics to charge high-brow restaurant prices for fast-food takeout. (There's a word for that which I won't use because it'll get this post modded.) Which I basically agree with that assessment, so thank you for validating.


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2017)

PhoenixS said:


> Huh? In the real world of economics, what you've outlined about BookBub above leads to higher prices, not lower.


If both parties are mutually benefiting why would it lead to higher prices? The benefit wouldn't be mutual anymore!

Right now if Bookbub accepts your book you open your wallet and pay them even if it's your last dime. However, if Bookbub raised their prices significantly to the point where you're not guaranteed a good ROI (like with ANY other service) then less authors would bother submitting deals. Bookbub would no-longer have hundreds of great bargains to choose from and would either have very few deals to offer their readers, or they would just start accepting anyone willing to pay the exorbitant fees. That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.



PhoenixS said:


> What you're also implying in your statement is that with these author NLs there's no vetting and what service there is has nothing to do with readers. That it's simply nothing more than a fairly passive revenue stream for authors who fly in the face of economics to charge high-brow restaurant prices for fast-food takeout. (There's a word for that which I won't use because it'll get this post modded.) Which I basically agree with that assessment, so thank you for validating.


I wasn't defending these authors selling spots in their newsletters, they're obviously over-priced and it's not a service I have any interest in. But you should be comparing the prices to other popular newsletter services and make a more realistic comparison.


----------



## AltMe (May 18, 2015)

Maalik said:


> That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.


The trouble is, its not.

I stopped getting the newsletter because after months, I never received anything to click on. It was all stuff I had no interest in, and old stuff I'd already read.

I want to know about new stuff in my genre, and BB doesn't deliver.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

Maalik said:


> If both parties are mutually benefiting why would it lead to higher prices? The benefit wouldn't be mutual anymore!
> 
> Right now if Bookbub accepts your book you open your wallet and pay them even if it's your last dime. However, if Bookbub raised their prices significantly to the point where you're not guaranteed a good ROI (like with ANY other service) then less authors would bother submitting deals. Bookbub would no-longer have hundreds of great bargains to choose from and would either have very few deals to offer their readers, or they would just start accepting anyone willing to pay the exorbitant fees. That would severely reduce the quality of their newsletter.
> 
> I wasn't defending these authors selling spots in their newsletters, they're obviously over-priced and it's not a service I have any interest in. But you should be comparing the prices to other popular newsletter services and make a more realistic comparison.


Okay, for the sake of argument I did the comparison to MyRomanceReads which was my next favorite go-to for list-based promotion. They have a single list of about 65k and charge $90 for a spot for a $0.99 book (oddly they charge MORE for free books while Bookbub charges less). Based on their numbers (which aren't at all broken down by genre), a list my size (15k) would be worth ~$21 per send ($90/65k subscribers = ~$0.0014/email x 15k = ~$21). Still nothing close to what some of the Bookclicker authors are charging for much smaller lists.

But my point is that what many BC users don't seem to grasp is that ROI matters a LOT and the entire reason I prefer to swap over paying for these other promo services is because the ROI from anyone but Bookbub lately simply stinks.

Luckily a lot of BC authors are only doing swaps. As for the folks charging, I think seeing the prices for lists of equivalent sizes and being able to easily compare will eventually force those prices down unless the users can demonstrate that their lists provide an ROI worth the price they charge. Having all of them in one place will only make it easier for everyone to compare (for those authors who are willing to pay). For the rest it's really just a swap meet where we all bring our lists and see what we can get in exchange for what we have.

Regardless of who is doing what with their lists, the fact that I can SEE their list sizes, open/click rates, prices, links to their catalogs, and hopefully in the future some kind of profile that includes more information beyond simply genre, will make my job a whole lot easier when I'm trying to decide who is worthwhile to swap with. I love that all that information will be in one spot.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

AssanaBanana said:


> Regardless of who is doing what with their lists, the fact that I can SEE their list sizes, open/click rates, prices, links to their catalogs, and hopefully in the future some kind of profile that includes more information beyond simply genre, will make my job a whole lot easier when I'm trying to decide who is worthwhile to swap with. I love that all that information will be in one spot.


When you go to BookClicker's signup form, and log in with your MailChimp account so as to verify the size of your list, you also give BookClicker full access to your list, including the ability to download all the names in your list, send them emails, or whatever. This is obviously a terrible, _terrible_ idea, regardless of the motives of the people behind the site and feature.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MonkeyScribe said:


> When you go to BookClicker's signup form, and log in with your MailChimp account so as to verify the size of your list, you also give BookClicker full access to your list, including the ability to download all the names in your list, send them emails, or whatever. This is obviously a terrible, _terrible_ idea, regardless of the motives of the people behind the site and feature.


Wow. Hell no.


----------



## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Sati_LRR said:


> A word of warning, the OP has already engaged in activities that violate CAN-SPAM and even admits as much, scraping emails from people who at one point or another joined the Bookclicker Ryver chat.


99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.

I'm now going to explain the economics of supply and demand. This is the same concept that has kept all the underperforming advertising companies afloat. It's the same concept that has kept KU afloat despite diminishing payouts to authors on page reads. People are still using these things. People are still accepting these prices.

I am one of the people who has a super expensive list on BookClicker. Originally, my prices were lower than most, but I was getting booked up. So I raised the price because I didn't want to clog up my newsletter with promos by other authors. Then I raised the price again. Then I raised it again. Now I have one of the more expensive lists on BookClicker, and you know what, I'm still booked solid.

For a lot of authors, especially authors in the top 100 on Amazon, using services like BookClicker and the other advertising sites isn't about getting a positive ROI on that particular ad. It's about getting enough people to buy or borrow their book to get it in the top 100 on Amazon or #1 spot in their category or accomplish some ranking goal that will kickstart organic reads and downloads. That is why people spend stupid amounts of money on this stuff--amounts that don't seem to make sense when you're looked at immediate ROI on an ad purchase.

Not everyone has the same business plan. I totally understand the people who are watching their finances and/or only care about positive ROI regardless of rank. As was already mentioned, not everyone can get a BookBub. For those who can, that is definitely a cheaper route. For those who can't, these are the routes they go to achieve the same results.

I'd also like to add that most of the people with really expensive lists on BookClicker are willing to swap.


----------



## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

You mean a privilege to join a scammer Ryver group where you're taught to stuff books and spam readers every day? No thanks. Hey since this thread is back from the dead everybody should know David Gaughran did a great writeup on the Bookclicker scammers ruining romance. Buyer beware.

https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/nanowrimo-writing-prompts-bad-boy-romance-edition/

*Note: this is my response to KMatthew who edited out the part of their post saying it's a privilege to be in a scammer group. It isn't. Chance Carter trained the ghostwriting publishers using scammy strategies who are destroying indie authors as we speak. He created Bookclicker to help them get more powerful and dupe real authors. These scammers are a mortal threat to everyone writing their own books. They want you buried or minimum wage slavewriting for them.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

KMatthew said:


> You must not have ever signed up for anything in your life before, because 99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. Last I knew, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. You being accepted is a privilege, and if you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.


99 out of a 100 may ask you for your email, but they don't generally ask for your password and access to your emails at the same time. When I sign up for this service, I'm giving them access to all of my hard-earned list of readers as well. All those emails can be downloaded, sent to without my permission, etc.

I wouldn't give my _mother_ that kind of access, let alone someone I don't know in person. One bad move, and all my readers think I'm a spammer, or MailChimp shuts me down, or one of a hundred other bad things. May as well give these guys my KDP and PayPal while I'm at it.

Why not ask for a screen shot of your subscriber list count instead? That would satisfy the same verification that they're demanding and be a whole lot less sketchy sounding.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

I pulled out of Bookclicker after a few months because it was simply too big a pain in the butt to use. It seemed like a good idea on paper, but ultimately didn't make my job easier - it made it more difficult. And I guess since I have no trouble getting Bookbub features I'll just stick to Bookbub and do my newsletter swaps the old fashioned way. Monetizing my list was never my goal - simply gaining visibility via swaps was all I was after, and I don't need Bookclicker to do that.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Phxsundog said:


> You mean a privilege to join a scammer Ryver group where you're taught to stuff books and spam readers every day? No thanks. Hey since this thread is back from the dead everybody should know David Gaughran did a great writeup on the Bookclicker scammers ruining romance. Buyer beware.
> 
> https://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2017/10/24/nanowrimo-writing-prompts-bad-boy-romance-edition/


This.


----------



## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

MonkeyScribe said:


> 99 out of a 100 may ask you for your email, but they don't generally ask for your password and access to your emails at the same time. When I sign up for this service, I'm giving them access to all of my hard-earned list of readers as well. All those emails can be downloaded, sent to without my permission, etc.


Wait... are you serious? Can they actually do that?


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Huldra said:


> Wait... are you serious? Can they actually do that?


If someone has your complete login information, they can do whatever _you_ can do on the site. Among them are send out email campaigns and download a spreadsheet of all your subscribers. Maybe they'll do that, maybe not--it's supposedly being done to verify the size of your list--but I wouldn't recommend giving them the power.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

KMatthew said:


> 99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.


Excuse me? I don't deserve to be in a group if I object to the organizer breaking SPAM laws? If there's anywhere breaking SPAM laws matters, it's a group dedicated to mailing lists.

I don't need to be on BC. I make six figures and can easily seek out swaps with other authors with established pen names. I'd like to think I'm well respected for consistently helping authors and pointing them towards writing quality books that will sell in many years (with proper marketing). I don't need BC. BC needs me. Doing scammy stuff chases away legitimate and experienced authors in favor of newbs and scammers.

If you want a great community, you need to cater to experienced authors.


----------



## Sati_LRR (Jul 10, 2017)

KMatthew said:


> 99 times out of 100, you input your email address into a field on anything online, it goes onto a list. When I joined, Chancer's Ryver group was by invitation only. Most of the top KUers in Romance are in that group and there's a lot to be learned there. If you're going to complain instead of just hitting unsubscribe like any normal person would do, then you don't deserve to be in there in the first place.
> 
> I'm now going to explain the economics of supply and demand. This is the same concept that has kept all the underperforming advertising companies afloat. It's the same concept that has kept KU afloat despite diminishing payouts to authors on page reads. People are still using these things. People are still accepting these prices.
> 
> ...


Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.

What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.

Lastly, I spoke to Mailerlite and they had this to say about their API keys and what information developers can access when you give them your Mailerlite API key. I would urge anyone who is thinking of providing a developer, app, or site their API key for whatever service to do their due diligence and double check what kind of access you are granting and what information the developer will now have access to.



> Hi, I have a quick question about the Mailerlite API. Can you tell me what information a developer would have access to if I gave them my API? Do they get to see my subscriber email details?





> Hey [removed]!
> Good to hear from you
> Yes, they would have access to your subscribers and their details.
> Let me know if you have further questions.
> ...





> Hi Silvestras they would see the names and the email addresses? (Sorry I just need this clarified)
> And in full too? Not just the amount of subscribers or the groups but everything? Full, uncensored email addresses?





> Yes, if they have your API key, they can get all info about your subscribers from our API documentation: https://developers.mailerlite.com.
> Best regards,
> Silvestras
> Customer Support Manager


Mailerlite information that can be pulled: http://developers.mailerlite.com/reference
Mailchimp information: http://developer.mailchimp.com/documentation/mailchimp/reference/overview/

From the Mailchimp site (https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys?):


> API keys grant full access to your MailChimp account and should be protected the same way you would protect your password.


*Disclaimer* By providing this information I am not saying Chance scrapes the subscriber information from Bookclicker, merely that, according to Mailerlite themselves that _it is_ possible.

ETA Mailchimp links


----------



## KMatthew (Mar 21, 2012)

Sati_LRR said:


> Did you even read my post? I was invited and part of both the Slack and then Ryver iterations of the Bookclicker group from the start before the website was even developed. My post had nothing to do with the recent allegations regarding the site and what the devs may or may not have access to behind the scenes.
> 
> What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust. However, I do have the right to complain and warn others of this behavior, especially since it is highly relevant to his current business. Also note, he has not apologized for the inappropriate way he handled the email addresses from these groups.
> 
> ...


If you're going to get p*ss y over someone making their website easy to use by having Mailerlite or MailChimp API integration, then there are dozens of businesses you can attack. Maybe you should be p*ssed at Mailerlite and Mailchimp for allowing these businesses to have access to your list data and take it up with them. As you said, though, you are not accusing Chance of scraping subscriber info, so I'm not sure why your anger seems directed towards him.

Trust me, I am just as ticked off about the b.s. going on in the romance industry as everyone else is. I've been writing romance full time for over five years, made 6 figures a year doing it(and yeah, Crystal, I know who you are and have swapped with you before). My business has been devastated by the recent flood of book factories, and it sucks...because as scammy as we might all see it, what they're doing is legal, so there's no way to stop them. But blaming Chance for trying to better the author community by creating these things and then them being used by these people is like blamming Harvey for creating Kboards and letting it be populated by noobs who offer bad advice. These are communities that are and should be open to anyone in the publishing industry who is engaged in legal business practices. Chance kicks people off of Ryver that he knows to be using blackhat methods to get ahead or that are screwing other authors over. I highly doubt he ever intended for Ryver to be populated by these people, but again, what they're doing isn't illegal. And yeah, they're also the ones driving up prices on BookClicker because they're willing to pay these crazy amounts to be in newsletters to reach the top 100.

So yeah, BookClicker and Ryver ARE being used by people who are damaging the publishing industry for real authors, but real authors use them, too. I like BookClicker because I HATE networking with people on a personal level. If I want to swap with another author, I can do it without having to engage in conversation with people I don't care about forming a personal relationship with. If I want to network with other authors, I do it as friends on Facebook. If I want to engage in newsletter swaps with authors I'm not friends with but have big mailing lists, I do it on BookClicker. And as for Ryver, it's a good place to find out what's going on in KU so that you can maybe stay a few steps ahead of these book factories, or at least have enough info to be able to compete with them as a real author.


----------



## Phxsundog (Jul 19, 2017)

Chance did intend to make scammers powerful though. He charged them thousands in his mastermind groups to hold their hands and teach them everything. He was their guru and their instructor. He knew who they were all along, blackhat internet marketers. David Gaughran said it in his bad boy article and you can go on other romance forums any day and hear the same thing. Many scammers wouldn't have learned to bury veteran authors without Chance teaching them everything. He didn't create Bookclicker to help authors. He made it to help the same scummy publishers more powerful so he can keep justifying big tuition fees from them.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Well my pen name is Crystal. I'm not exactly undercover.

My point is that it is a concern if Chance is ignoring SPAM laws, bc I don't want to risk the mailing list I've cultivated for years. For new authors or more book factory authors, there's less of a risk. It's the established authors with loyal lists who are most valuable for swapping. And for advice (of course, new authors can also have successes and lots to say, and sometimes older authors get set in their ways and fail to keep up with the times).

I use BC bc it's easy, but seeing so many questionable looking pen names there makes me hesitant to keep using it. It's not easy if I have to screen every pen name I don't recognize. At that point, I might as well so if swaps on FB. There's a reason why you don't see anyone like Meghan Quinn or Staci Hart on BC.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I was very concerned about this so I emailed Mailchimp. Their answer was very clear:

*If you sign into Bookclicker with your Mailchimp account/give them your Mailchimp API, then they have FULL ACCESS to your account and your list.*

I don't recommend doing that for obvious reasons.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

So, it stands to reason that any service out there that includes mailing list integration (such as Instafreebie, for example) has the same level of access once you've shared your API, right? How is Bookclicker different? I mean, other than the questionable associations of the owner which make it difficult to trust the entire system...


----------



## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

AssanaBanana said:


> So, it stands to reason that any service out there that includes mailing list integration (such as Instafreebie, for example) has the same level of access once you've shared your API, right? How is Bookclicker different? I mean, other than the questionable associations of the owner which make it difficult to trust the entire system...


Instafreebie has never asked for my password or anything else that will let them into my Mailchimp account. All they ask for is the same sign up link that is given out to everyone who signs up to my mailing list. That is how it is different. Geez, even Facebook, when they build a lookalike audience for advertising, don't ask for passwords.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Oh I can think of a few other ways BookFunnel is different.

1. I've met Damon Courtney, the owner, and he didn't give off a remotely shady vibe whatsoever. I met Chance once at a conference and the first thing he said was "I work for Author Solutions." Just odd.

2. Who is Chance Carter really? What's his real name? What's his real address? Things I'd like to know about anyone I'm potentially doing business with.

3. Chance Carter openly flouts Amazon's rules in a way that cheats authors. He has admitted that in this thread. (That should instantly disqualify him as someone you want to do business with, but I digress.)

4. Chance Carter runs a private mastermind which teaches all sorts of shady crap. 

Just some minor things there. Some possible reasons not to hand him the keys to your mailing list account.

Maybe.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Chance Carter . . . Gandhi . . . I wouldn't give _anyone_ the password to my mailing list. That's just internet safety 101.


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sati_LRR said:


> What I objected to was my email, which was given to Chance during sign-up of Slack then later Ryver, being used and put onto a newsletter list without my permission and using that list to drum up business for the Bookclicker website and being spammed by him. I didn't give him permission to use my email address when I joined those two groups. He has no right to do that regardless of who he is in the indie community. It doesn't give him a free pass to break CAN-SPAM laws, and shame on you for supporting this behavior and the breach of trust.


Further evidence, if any were needed, that Chance Carter can't be trusted and that you definitely shouldn't give him access to your mailing list and all those people's private information.

All of us have a duty of care towards readers who sign up to our list - morally and legally - and using BookClicker at this point is just irresponsible.


----------



## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

Doglover said:


> Instafreebie has never asked for my password or anything else that will let them into my Mailchimp account. All they ask for is the same sign up link that is given out to everyone who signs up to my mailing list. That is how it is different. Geez, even Facebook, when they build a lookalike audience for advertising, don't ask for passwords.


If you do the mailing list integration with Instafreebie or Bookfunnel (so subscriber details get funneled directly to your list) you provide the same API that Bookclicker asks for. No password.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

MonkeyScribe said:


> If someone has your complete login information, they can do whatever _you_ can do on the site. Among them are send out email campaigns and download a spreadsheet of all your subscribers. Maybe they'll do that, maybe not--it's supposedly being done to verify the size of your list--but I wouldn't recommend giving them the power.


Omg.
And if "someone" has been dumb enough to do that already, is there a way to undo their access?


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Huldra said:


> Omg.
> And if "someone" has been dumb enough to do that already, is there a way to undo their access?


Yes. You can revoke an API key and re-secure your account at any point. Obviously though, that doesn't protect any info that might have been copied or scraped already.

Here's how to disable an API key on Mailchimp (third section): https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys


----------



## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

dgaughran said:


> Yes. You can revoke an API key and re-secure your account at any point. Obviously though, that doesn't protect any info that might have been copied or scraped already.
> 
> Here's how to disable an API key on Mailchimp (third section): https://kb.mailchimp.com/integrations/api-integrations/about-api-keys


Thank you. Sincerely.


----------



## John Hartness (Aug 3, 2009)

Once again, nice work, David.

_locking while mods review -- Ann_


----------

