# Tried to Read it and couldn't



## Guest (Jul 26, 2011)

Without mentioning any names (to save the guilty from the innocent), I've been around here since last Christmas (my gift to you). In that time, I've read several books of authors here. A few I was unable to finish, or if I did finish them was unable to review them. 

A couple were so puerile (that means childish--a good word for cocktail parties), some were rife with errors of one kind or another, and some I just could never be hooked (you know, that Coleridge thing about suspending disbelief). 

So my question to you fellow thespians (ain't we all actors on a stage? The last stage I was on was held up), Have you read many books here that you couldn't stomach or finish? Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?

Now, no names. You know writers here have thin skins. Except for that quilter babe, who has tried & failed to teach yours truly how to insert book covers in my signature.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

This is always a painful subject because on the one hand, I've tried to read books advertised here that I thought were crap, but on the other hand some of those books are selling a whole lot better than mine are. My biggest problem with trying to read fellow Kindleboarders books is that I have virtually no interest in reading YA paranormal romance, chick-lit, erotica, and fantasy. That rules out a huge chunk of the books I see here.

Of the remaining books categories, I've downloaded/read quite a few samples but only downloaded and finished four -- three of which I liked. 

I get a fair number of emails/PMs from people asking me if I would review their book on my blog and I tell everyone "no" for the same reasons: 1. it would not be fair for me to review books in the categories I don't like because --- well, --- I wouldn't like them, and 2. I prefer to pick which books I review so I don't feel any sense of obligation.

It's tough sometimes.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I've been trying to select paranormal Indy books for a new site I'm building, and I'm sorry to say that I'm having a heck of a time of it.

I'm going by reviews, personal reads, recommendations, or samples.  I've been having to discard every 3 out of 5 for spelling, grammar, punctuation or formatting problems.  I was really stunned by this.  I had no idea that these problems were so prevalent.

Needless to say, it is taking me beyond forever to find books to promote.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

JeanneM said:


> I've been having to discard every 3 out of 5 for spelling, grammar, punctuation or formatting problems. I was really stunned by this. I had no idea that these problems were so prevalent.


Jeanne, I downloaded a sample of a paranormal romance because the author asked me to (on a different board). She used the same unique adjective to describe the heroine FIVE times _on the first page_! On the first page... Maybe the kids who read these things don't care but I was put off.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I know! Sometimes I'm not able to get past the blurb because of errors running rampant through it.  

I believe you are right.  I think the younger audience...especially in paranormal...tend to be a bit more forgiving.  Sadly, in some cases, they may not even know anything is amiss.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2011)

Did you just turn 10? Apparently there's a special condition that comes with that. http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e07-youre-getting-old (Plenty of foul language here.)


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I've never actually seen South Park.  So I'm not sure what this is all about.   But strangely, I'm OK with that.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm very picky about what I read and I have a huge TBR pile, so I'll be honest and say that I haven't really gotten around to reading many others here. (I do have a number in my TBR pile, though.)

I read a lot of old pulp fiction, and adventure stories from other eras. I am tolerant of different writing styles -- that is "childish" attitudes may well be like the "innocent" attitudes of a Victorian morality tale. Or crime fiction of the thirties may be as arch and overly stylish as a student literary writer. Also I was a script reader for a number of years -- reading scripts sometimes by nearly illiterate producers. So I can read through horrible writing to a good story. (But I'm not getting paid any more to read horrible writing to find a good story.)

That's the context, but here is the conclusion:

I don't even try to read a book when the blurb doesn't attract me, so those who can't write at all are not on my radar.

Of those I have at least sampled: I don't find a lot of writers here who write what I love to read. I don't consider this a flaw on their part. I just don't have much time to read so if I don't love it I don't read it.

One thing I do consider a flaw that I've seen a lot -- but I don't _think_ it's an indie thing, I think it's a "chicklit" thing, because it happens a lot in cozy mysteries too -- are doormat main characters. It's not really the main character who is the problem because even passive characters can go through interesting adventures (think "Being There") but the fact that these characters put up with nasty, screechy, rotten other characters who I have no desire to spend any time with at all. I can only assume that the author thinks inflicting such people on the main character will give the character a compelling problem -- but if so, then you'd better <expletive deleted> make sure that the <worse expletive deleted> protagonist DEALS with the problem. Now. Not halfway through the <expletive deleted> novel with some passive aggressive plan which makes me hate the protag even more than the nasty, screechy, rotten antagonist.

Is this a taste thing? Maybe. I see too much of it to think that everyone hates it as bad as I do. However, I also see it done well. Scenes between Bertie Wooster and his bullying Aunt Agatha are a joy to behold. Part of this is because Aunt Agatha has power and is worthy of respect, and she presents a real and present danger which cannot be avoided by simply ducking her. The other is that Bertie's lack of spine is shown as a character flaw. He's NOT a victim of anything but his own spinelessness. And he DOES make rather extreme attempts to duck his Aunt Agatha at times.

I think characters who put up with annoyances may be a maturity thing. Not personal maturity, but writing maturity. You start out writing to the surface, and then you go deeper and deeper as you mature.

Camille


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

I understand what you're saying, I'm sure there have been people that couldn't make it past the first few pages of my books.

That is the beauty of anything creative.  Some will love it, some will hate it.  The stronger the reaction, the better the creator.

I look at most couture clothing and think... what?  

I've stood in museums and thought... really?

When I get to the point that a book isn't working for me, my most common response is to put it to the side and try again when I am in a different mood.  Usually works.  

Some people like champagne, some people like beer, (some people like both - a lot!)... good to know they both exist and are readily available.

Sheila


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## William Peter Grasso (May 1, 2011)

Perhaps I suffer from acute completion ethic, but if I decide to start a book, only in very rare cases will I not finish it. I'll wince at the grammatical errors, the typos, the illogical or ridiculous storylines...but I'll finish it.

I know, I know...somebody is waiting to rebut me with a "life's too short" argument. But I'm in my seventh decade on this planet, and I've come to the conclusion _life's too fast_.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

William Peter Grasso said:


> But I'm in my seventh decade on this planet, and I've come to the conclusion _life's too fast_.


I love that.


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## Katy (Dec 16, 2010)

Whew. I'm not the only one...

I've been sampling a fair number of indie books, and often do I want to continue on with the book after the sample. On a couple of occasions, I can't even finish the sample. Not all are from this board. And I, too, don't read the paranormal, romance, or fantasy books. 
I have found some good books. 
I have found some okay books. (The story is good enough to keep me reading but I'm still annoyed by the writing.)

But mostly, I've found books that might have potential, but they are NOT ready for publishing. 
It's frustrating, because I read stuff here and there where readers have given up on indie books due to lack of editing and just plain bad writing. They are no longer willing to wade through the junk to find the good stuff. (I'm surprised, tho, at how many have said they _bought_ a book and were disappointed. Apparently, some people still don't sample... I can't imagine _not_ sampling!)

However, I have also found that the books I think are not ready (or just crap) often still sell quite well, and get good reviews. Sometimes the reviewer will mention the atrocious spelling, punctuation and grammar mistakes, but give it four stars or five stars anyway. Reviews will say "This was well written" when I can hardly stand to wade through it. 
The whole "bad books won't sell and will sink to the bottom" mantra is not happening, from what I'm seeing. I know of really good books that hardly sell, and really bad books that keep on selling well. It's mind boggling.

I've come to the conclusion that for the _average_ reader, the spelling and punctuation are kinda important, grammar is a little important, but the overall writing doesn't really matter if the story is good. Tell a good story, and they will ignore or _not notice_ most of the awkwardness or amateurish writing. 
Writers stress over stuff in our writing that most readers will never notice one way or the other. LOL.

I am NOT advocating that any writer lower their standards!  Always strive to improve! 
I just wish the crap would sink away, the way everyone keeps saying it will...

I'm a firm believer in sampling. I will keep sampling. I know there is plenty of good stuff out there.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I think authors tend to be more critical than regular readers.  They look for errors and all kinds of things instead of just enjoying the story.  We forget that we are not proofreading, but just reading for pleasure.


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## JJayKamp (Mar 11, 2011)

All I can say is that I hope my books aren't among those we're discussing.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2011)

Franklin Eddy said:


> I think authors tend to be more critical than regular readers. They look for errors and all kinds of things instead of just enjoying the story. We forget that we are not proofreading, but just reading for pleasure.


I'll add to this and say that just as this thread is composed of authors complaining about other authors, there are a lot of authors whose understanding of grammar is suspect and therefore may be unjustly howling about their peers. To put it as nicely as possible, two writers can write in completely different styles and still be right.


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

Honestly, I've found so many great books and writers from being a part of kindleboards this past year that it's made finding a new indie author/book to read feel like walking into the best candy store in the world!

I'm a fan of everyone on this board. 

 Bella


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I guess I'm fortunate. 

Most of the indie books I've read, I've enjoyed. A couple left me a bit cold: too stream of consciousness for my taste or the language was too flowery. Perhaps, I've had good luck, because I sample. Also, I read for a number of reasons (often for research and often to be entertained), and I read eclectically--so, generally, I'm into a lot of styles. When I read, I put aside the critic. Of course, I'd notice terrible grammar and formatting, but I just haven't experienced it from the indie authors I've read.

Sorry you've had such an unpleasant experience. I also hope you're not referring to my books, but, of course, they're not for everyone.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

BELLA ANDRE, you are awesome! I do believe you are on the cover of my latest RT. At least you _were_ on the cover, until a scorpion craweled beneath my magazine and, suffice it to say, that RT is history.

Life's too 'fast' to come on here and complain about other authors. Honestly, if you want to nitpick other writers, write a parody.

BTW - I found a few punctuation errors in the original post, but I'm not complaining. I promise! I just found it a tad ironic, that's all.

HEY SUZZANNE! I swear, I never get tired of that hilarious cover.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Katy said:


> The whole "bad books won't sell and will sink to the bottom" mantra is not happening, from what I'm seeing. I know of really good books that hardly sell, and really bad books that keep on selling well. It's mind boggling.


The problem is defining what's a "bad book."

There are a million reasons why a good book won't sell, but there is only one reason why a bad book DOES sell -- and that's because it's not really a bad book. It may not be a great book, but it's doing something for the readers.

If you read a bad which which is selling better than yours, you can't just say "that proves there's something wrong with the universe." You've got to say "WHY is this selling better than mine?"

The reason may be something as simple as it appeals to a different audience and that audience is bigger than yours. There's not much you can do about that. But if it appeals to YOUR audience, then you've got to stop and say "what's appealing about this?" Stop dwelling on the negatives, quit with the sour grapes, and LOOK.

Look at the negatives when you want to know why something ISN'T selling. But when something is selling, open your eyes and look at the positives. Because obviously what they're doing wrong doesn't matter as much as what they do right.

Look, folks, when people praise your spelling, that's a warning sign. Trivial concepts, shallow characterization, bad pacing, too much or too little exposition, and dissatisfying endings are a bigger deal. They're just harder to catch in a small sample, and people will overlook them when they like you personally.

Camille


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## jhendereson (Oct 22, 2010)

Call me paranoid, but each time I read one of these type threads I think, Dang, did they all just read Pernicious? There was a thread not long ago where the OP ranted that she was highly upset that many indie writers' work had not been properly edited. Well, she nailed me because my novels have not been edited by anyone except me. Couldn't afford it, so did the best I could. I don't own a Kindle so haven't perused any author here. Yet if I did read someone's work here I sure wouldn't criticize it, directly or indirectly. Trucking across the country each day I hear guys on the CB bragging how fast their truck will go, not realizing we're all in the same lane, heading in the same direction, with a particular destination in mind.


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

It's good to see indie authors admitting that a lot of indie books are poorly written and edited. That's one of the chief complaints of readers of traditionally published books, and they're usually castigated for suggesting such a thing. It _is_ a problem with indie books, and reflects on us all, whether we as indie authors want to admit it or not.


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## Paul Clayton (Sep 12, 2009)

I've only read one "Indie" here, cover to cover.  It was not the genre I usually read in, but I was pleasantly surprised with how well the book was written.  Now I'll have to do something else which I never do, and that is to review it.  The writer is, however, not a beginner, but someone who wrote a lot for movies and such.  

I think this person will do very well with this book and I wish him/her the best.


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## Alain Gomez (Nov 12, 2010)

Franklin Eddy said:


> I think authors tend to be more critical than regular readers. They look for errors and all kinds of things instead of just enjoying the story. We forget that we are not proofreading, but just reading for pleasure.


This ^^

Quite frankly, there are a lot of traditionally published books that I hate. There are a lot of _classic_ traditionally published books that I hate. Great Gatsby? Can't stand it. To Kill a Mockingbird is also not one that I enjoy.

I was forced to read Tuesday's With Morrie in high school. The gag reflex was hard to suppress. I don't respond well to obvious attempts at pulling my heartstrings. It strikes me as phony and shallow.

I think the problem here is not from whence a story was published. The problem is sheer number and what we're exposed to. Whenever I go to a bookstore, I usually tend to gravitate to a single section. More specifically, a single section and then I go to an author I already know I like. In a situation like here on KB, you are being presented with all genres from dozens of authors at random (whatever threads you happen to go on). It's much more of a cr*pshoot.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

I've read some great Indie books from Kindleboards...so I'll not participate in the bashing of Indies discussion!


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## Will Granger (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm reading and reviewing one now for a friend that is actually very good. I am enjoying it, and I hope he is successful with it. Once he publishes it, I will do everything I can to help him promote it.

On the other hand, I offered to read one for someone, and I could not finish it. I wanted to to like it and write a good review, but there were way too may errors, and it wasn't the type of book I normally read. It sort of felt like getting a present from someone, and hating it, and having to pretend I liked it. I think we have all been there.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Patrick Skelton said:


> I've read some great Indie books from Kindleboards...so I'll not participate in the bashing of Indies discussion!


Well said.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I've read trade pubbed books that I wanted to throw against a wall because they were so full of garbage, boring, etc..

I actually hadn't read any BAD indie books until this year when I started reviewing for RedAdeptReviews. So, since February, I have read two indie books that were so bad in MY opinion, that I couldn't read them even halfway through. Both of them have since been reviewed by others on the staff, and neither book garnered above 2 stars..

I also read an indie book that had a great story, fun characters, wonderful world-building, and terrible terrible grammar. I was all set to review it, and, it's no longer up for sale. *shrug* I *think* it was taken down for a full edit. I HOPE it was, it was a very good story.


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## EGranfors (Mar 18, 2011)

I read two or three books per week, traditionally published. I don't have an e-reader yet.  I want to read more indie-pub books.  Paranormal, time travel, and werewolves:  no.  I have, of late, quit after 100 pages if I just cannot get into the story (Wilbur Smith's latest).

Loved "Language of Flowers" and "The Orphan Sister"--traditional publishing houses.


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## sandynight (Sep 26, 2010)

To answer the OP's question...No. I like reading what other people wrote.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Paul Clayton said:


> ...but I was pleasantly surprised with how well the book was written....


No offense to Paul because I think he is being very sincere but this is the kind of comment that drives me up a wall -- it's like indie books are the Special Olympics of publishing! Comments like "I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't suck" (I know you didn't say that, Paul, that's just me being "colorful") or "it was pretty good for a $2.99 book" or "I was surprised that a .99 cent book was that good." I just want to scream when I read remarks like that!

I know a lot of kids are only interested in the story and I know a lot of people who are attached to a specific genre will overlook grammar, punctuation, and structure. But for those of us who want to write books that are on a par with anything that comes out of a major publishing house those "also-ran" qualifiers are like nails on a chalkboard.

Well, at least they are to me....


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I wouldn't call this a "bashing" of indies discussion.  

This is a discussion of quality.  (Including a discussion over how the standards for quality differ.) 

Further, this is an important internal discussion about things we can do to improve our sales:  I notice nobody objects to discussions about how to market your book -- well, the content of a book is a major part of marketing.  Perhaps the MOST important factor.

Seth Godin had an interesting discussion of "quality" on his blog today.  One of the things he said was this: "It's cheaper to design marketing quality into the product than it is to advertise the product."

How this translates for writers is that it's a lot easier to market a book which is marketable -- i.e. a good book.

When we spend all our time talking about promotion, and object to discussions of quality, we shoot ourselves in the foot.  Writing quality IS marketing.

Camille


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Patrick Skelton said:


> I've read some great Indie books from Kindleboards...so I'll not participate in the bashing of Indies discussion!


Patrick, this isn't about bashing indies, it is about bashing indies who can't be bothered to proof, edit, and format their books before putting them on the market -- thus making the indies who DO look bad.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

The problem with a public discussion like this is that readers and potential customers are listening in.  I'd rather do all I can to not paint Indies in a bad light, that's all.   Mostly because I've read some outstanding Indie books that, I dare say, are BETTER than traditionally published books.  

Yes, there are some poorly written Indie books out there. Who cares. That's on an author-by-author basis.  Those authors will be weeded out quickly anyway.  Sorry, in a bad mood today.


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## Patrick Skelton (Jan 7, 2011)

I guess I'm just a bit offended by the original post because I've had nothing but great experiences with Indie books so far.


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

I haven't run into any bad indie books yet but I've only read four. Barring cohesiveness of story, spelling and grammar issues, it really boils down to personal opinion.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Have I read bad ones? To me, yes: both trad and indie. Did I not like some after reading them? Despite few flaws or faults, sometimes I just don't get into something.

That's okay. As a reader, I can dislike something or like something. It only really matters to me.

Even if a book is badly-written or contains errors that irk me, if the story is good, I can usually press past these matters. Like everyone else I have my grammar rules instilled by a rather ruthless series of high school English teachers, so instilled, in fact, that their obsessive-compulsive disorders have stuck with me.

I've been accused of bad sentence structure. I've been accused of bad grammar. I've been accused of needing an editor, a technical advisor, and a ghostwriter/another author to write in my place.

I've also been accused of writing a good book.

It's all a matter of the reader who gets a hold of the book. Some get it, some don't. Some can't get past grammar. To each his own.


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## Sam Rivers (May 22, 2011)

I read a free one the other day about giant killer bugs.  It seemed hard for me to take serious so I stopped reading it.  It was well written though and didn't have a lot of errors. It just wasn't my type of novel.

Then I read another one that was also a free one that had come from a publisher.  There were no errors and the writing was fine.  However, it seem to take forever for anything to happen.

It was about a virus that was suppose to wipe out everyone.  The author started about a half a dozen different threads on it and none were very interesting.  So I deleted it since I wasn't going to waste time on filler.

So even if errors are not present, the storyline could be poor or slow which will turn off a reader.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

daringnovelist said:


> When we spend all our time talking about promotion, and object to discussions of quality, we shoot ourselves in the foot. Writing quality IS marketing.


I'm with Camille here. We all see the many, many threads suggesting the reason a book doesn't sell is the price, the cover, the title, or the blurb, but it's pretty rare to see anyone point out the problem is the book itself. When I first completed a novel, I asked friends and family members to read it, probably like most newbie writers. Luckily for me, I'm cynical and when I didn't get a single criticism and only "it's great," I went looking for unrelated people who would tell the truth and help me improve.

I also see so many people getting really upset and acting as if no one has the right to leave less than a 4-star review. Why are we so defensive? Why don't we set ourselves to learn from things like that if we can?

All that said, yes, I have tried some indie books that I found so unappealing I didn't get past the first page. That also happens pretty often with traditionally published books, but I confess the reasons are usually different.

I also think that while some things such as typos, poor formatting and grammar are objectively "bad," other things that make the difference between "bad" and "good" are subjective. One person's great story is another person's never-got-to-page-2.


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## William Peter Grasso (May 1, 2011)

Patrick Skelton said:


> The problem with a public discussion like this is that readers and potential customers are listening in. \


So true, Patrick...Then maybe we shouldn't spend so much time gloating about our sales figures. Or our pricing experiments.

WPG


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## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> ... it is about bashing indies who can't be bothered to proof, edit, and format their books before putting them on the market -- thus making the indies who DO look bad.


but since there's nothing you and i can do about that, why worry about it, why call _more_ attention to the issue?


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

I usually judge by sample and get a good feeling as to whether or not I'll like it. Most of the time I'm right and I don't look back...a couple of times I've been on the fence, and bought the book anyway (99/2.99, either way it's not going to break the bank, and a sale might encourage the author to improve their craft). Of the ones I've been 50/50 about and bought anyway...I've only been disappointed a couple of times, and even then, kept reading out of some sort of masochism...and a love of sporking bad books to the people around me (oh how my partner suffers -_-). 

And let it be known, I don't run books through the ringer for bad grammar, typos, etc - it's larger elements like plot, character development (or lack of development) etc, etc.


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## LCEvans (Mar 29, 2009)

I used to finish nearly every book I started reading, but I've got too many in my TBR to continue doing that, so I rely on samples more than I used to. I have found a few indie books I hated for one reason or another—poor writing, hated the story, etc. I'm not so picky about typos or messy formatting. On the other hand, I've found trad published books I hated for the same reasons. 

I've been away from Sample Sunday for a weeks and just got back to it, but I do read as many of the Sunday Samples as I can. I've found that's a good way to sample quickly without having to download samples to my Kindle.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Steve Silkin said:


> but since there's nothing you and i can do about that, why worry about it, why call _more_ attention to the issue?


Because by not calling out careless "authors" we are giving silent approval. I think it is vital to let readers know that at least some of us are aware of the issues and are striving for excellence. There are a whole LOT of people who refuse to by indie books -- the stigma is strong (just read the Amazon Discussion Boards). By openly saying, as Mike did in starting this thread, that there are those among us who wish to distance ourselves from the bad writers we are making it known that we recognize this problem and are striving to rise above it.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

William Peter Grasso said:


> So true, Patrick...Then maybe we shouldn't spend so much time gloating about our sales figures. Or our pricing experiments.


That creeps me out, too, William. I always wonder how readers feel when they see those kinds of threads.


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

bellaandre said:


> Honestly, I've found so many great books and writers from being a part of kindleboards this past year that it's made finding a new indie author/book to read feel like walking into the best candy store in the world!
> 
> I'm a fan of everyone on this board.
> 
> Bella


I couldn't agree more. I actually wanted (and received) a Kindle for my birthday so I could buy some of the books I've been watching on this board for a year!

Dawn


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Patrick Skelton said:


> The problem with a public discussion like this is that readers and potential customers are listening in. I'd rather do all I can to not paint Indies in a bad light, that's all.  Mostly because I've read some outstanding Indie books that, I dare say, are BETTER than traditionally published books.
> 
> Yes, there are some poorly written Indie books out there. Who cares. That's on an author-by-author basis. Those authors will be weeded out quickly anyway. Sorry, in a bad mood today.


I think just the opposite. This is an opportunity to behave like professionals. Nothing gives you a bad rap the way a defensive overreaction to anything smelling of criticism does.

Look, this is serious. This indie cheerleading and mutual admiration society is EXACTLY what is hurting indies the most. Let's get on with the job of writing, and talking about writing quality, and do ourselves a REAL favor in terms of our reputation.

Camille


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

I've read a few of the authors here on kindleboards and, while some have not been my cup of tea, I haven't found any that I couldn't finish because the grammar/formatting rendered then incomprehensible. There were spelling errors, true, but no more than would be found in your average paperback.

In fact, I'd like to turn this back on the op and say that your negative experience is most probably a result of your inability to rise above your own subjectivity.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

I got interrupted posting the last post, so I just wanted to add one more thing:

Behaving like professionals doesn't mean saluting when people criticize you. It may mean shrugging or ignoring.

If you're read lots of great indies, sure talk about it. Disagree with somebody's standard of quality, discuss yours. Just don't propaganidize. Instead do as Joe Konrath recently said and BE DELIBERATE. Demonstrate that you actually _think_ about things like quality issues, or stay out of discussions of quality issues.

Your fellow writers will be taken on their own merits if you take them that way. If you defend ALL indies as being great, and there are some indies who are not... well, your defense just sullied all the good writers in the group. Defend good writing, not some imagined homogeneous group.

Camille


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Reader here:  

There are 4 or 5 indie books that I sampled or bought (99¢ titles) that I couldn't get past the first few chapters.
***  One was so stream of consciousness that I had no idea what was happening (I wasn't even sure there was a consiousness; it was really random! )
***  One was riddled with grammar, spelling, and usage errors.  Enough that I couldn't figure out what it was supposed to be about.
***  One was so badly researched that I couldn't stand it:  A teen from a fishing village in 17th century England talking about the stories he'd read as a kid.  And talking with his friends in very 20th century language.
***  The others I have managed to delete from my memory banks. 

There have been a couple more that I did finish reading but ultimately didn't really like -- one mentioned Dr. Pepper on every third page (I actually wondered if he got paid to talk about it so much) and the formatting was horrible, no indents for paragraphs and no page breaks at chapters.  Another had an o.k. plot but was badly in need of an editor -- whole paragraphs of description were repeated, sometimes several times!  And the ending was ultimately a let down.

Now, all of these were early on in my indie purchasing career and taught me to be much more careful about what I chose. 

Of course, those are NOT the only indie books I've read. . . .there are at least a dozen others -- maybe closer to two dozen -- that have ranged between 3 and 5 star reads:  well written, few enough "oops" issues that they're easily ignored, good story/characters/plot.  And in lots of different genres.  Most are authors I've put on my "buy again" list; and for those not on that list it's only because the genre isn't one of my usual favorites and while the book was o.k., it wasn't good enough to make me go for it again.  But -- I'd recommend them to someone who was generally interested in that genre.

So.  That's been my experience.  All the books described above I learned about initially via KindleBoards.  Some of the authors are still active. . . .some came and went pretty quickly.


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

I have read a lot of indie books since I received my Kindle two years ago, and one of them ranks among my all-time favorite books in its genre. Quite a few others have been very good, and I'm glad that I found them. On the other hand, possibly the worst book that I've tried to read is an idie book that the author sent out free to several of us who replied to him/her. I felt as if I should leave him/her a review, but the book was so poorly written and edited that I couldn't even finish it. (I, like others here, have a TBR collection begging to be read. No way am I going to waste time on something that, in my opinion, shouldn't even be given a 1-star review.) Of course, I've run across traditionally published books that I didn't finish, as well. (I've never run across a traditionally published book that was really poorly written and/or edited.) I think one of the surprises that I've run across as a Kindle owner is that there are so many indie books that I would have never discovered had I stayed in the DTB crowd. 

I rely on samples of most books with which I am unfamiliar. If I'm hooked by the end of the sample and the price is affordable, I buy the book. If the price is higher than I'm willing to pay (usually over $9.99), I keep an eye on the book's price, waiting for a drop. 

I have to admit this about indie authors here on the KB: If I see an author in whose posts I find numerous errors in grammar, usage, and/or spelling, I generally will not even consider buying that author's books. (I make an exception when I think that auto-correct might have altered the writer's original wording.) I'm a teacher, which may explain my problem with careless errors. Such errors lead me to believe that the writers don't really care about producing quality books. I think that authors who sell their books thumb their noses at paying customers when numerous editing and other errors are rampant in their finished works. Just my 2 cents' worth of opinions.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> That creeps me out, too, William. I always wonder how readers feel when they see those kinds of threads.


All I can tell you is how THIS reader feels. I feel that as usual, there are going to be people who love something, people who hate something and people who don't get it.

I think anonymous "commenting" on books is cowardly. If you don't like a book, either come out and say it and say why or quietly recommend that your friends don't read it.

There is no ONE such thing as an indie writer. There is no ONE such thing as a writer at all. I know from experience that two people can look at the same thing (painting, book, movie, play) and have completely different feelings.

So, if you don't like a book, that's your prerogative. If you have an issue with a book because of typos/formatting or other issues for that kind, PM the author.

And in the end, remember two pieces of advice I like to try and keep in mind--
1) Whatever you say about someone else, someone somewhere is saying about you.
2) If you can't say anything nice about something, don't say anything at all.

Oh, and authors who spend their time talking about other authors usually end up on my do not buy list.


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

I agree with you about sending a PM to an author regarding mistakes. (I started a thread about this a couple of years ago, and authors were in agreement that they would welcome such messages.) In fact, if I care enough about a book to take the time to let the author know about mistakes, I highlight the location of each mistake so that I can find it when I'm ready to write to the author. There have been a few books that I've considered to be so bad that it's not worth my time to PM the author. (I haven't finished those books anyway.)


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

Patrick Skelton said:


> The problem with a public discussion like this is that readers and potential customers are listening in.


I am a reader and potential customer, and a participant. I think it is FINE to say yes I have read both good and bad books by both indies and trades. We're not naming names or pointing fingers.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

scarlet said:


> And in the end, remember two pieces of advice I like to try and keep in mind--
> 1) Whatever you say about someone else, someone somewhere is saying about you.
> 2) If you can't say anything nice about something, don't say anything at all.


Scarlet: I really seriously hope that people out there who take writing seriously are talking critically about my writing.

I realize that you are probably not talking about me, but I gotta say it, I WANT people to talk about me the way people are talking about "anonymous" authors here. That's what it is to be a pro -- you've put your work out there to be talked about. It's public. It means, frankly, that you've arrived, and are being taken seriously (no matter how critical and snarky the comments may be, if you provoke comment, you're being taken seriously).

I don't want people to just say nice things about me, and I don't want people to only talk to my face. I want people to have honest, thoughtful, and heartfelt conversations about things that matter to them.

And if you don't want to be in that conversation, then you don't have to. That's the beauty of the internet -- you don't get to control what people say... and they don't get to control what you read.

Camille


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

I do think it's odd that the Writer's Cafe is almost always more about marketing, promotion, and sales than it is about writing. I have learned from those businessy threads, but it gets very repetitive, and is certainly not what I expected when I first came here. I'd love more discussions about actual writing.

And I think I'm probably behind anything Camille has said. I find I usually am, honestly. 

Also, scarlet, I understand the distaste for the idea of authors talking about other authors, but I think, given how much this board focuses on sales, there is something to the idea that it's odd that people tend not to talk about the actual quality of the books. I know that this is a whole can of worms, and I don't have any useful suggestions at the moment, but I think I can say I recognize this as a potential problem. (Credit where credit is due, though: Vicki is the first to say when she thinks the writing needs to be tightened up a bit on her new blog, and I think that's an admirable service that she's started.) And there's the fact that most authors are also voracious readers, too, and have opinions as readers. I mean...it's a tricky problem. I just don't think saying we shouldn't talk about it is necessarily the way to go. 

I know it's a public forum, and I understand being annoyed or anxious that readers see this and get all...well, I don't know, but something. But all of the promotion and marketing and sales posts are public, too, and showing only a positive face isn't necessarily honest, either. I think readers - and writers, and whoever comes across this stuff - look at a community that only ever allows itself to say positive things, and their bullsh*t detectors go off. 

So, I don't know. I'm just weirded out by the idea that you shouldn't talk about something that might be construed as negative, regardless of whether or not it may be true, just because it might be negative.


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## pamclaughton (Feb 21, 2011)

Honestly, there are plenty of published books that I've started and not been able to finish, or picked up in a store, read a few pages, and put back down. It really just goes to show how subjective this industry is. I actually am inspired when this happens though as I like to think I could do better and I do believe that good books, like cream, will rise to the top. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, and story trumps all. I can forgive the writing if I get lost in a great story.


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## pamclaughton (Feb 21, 2011)

Patrick Skelton said:


> The problem with a public discussion like this is that readers and potential customers are listening in. I'd rather do all I can to not paint Indies in a bad light, that's all.  Mostly because I've read some outstanding Indie books that, I dare say, are BETTER than traditionally published books.
> 
> Yes, there are some poorly written Indie books out there. Who cares. That's on an author-by-author basis. Those authors will be weeded out quickly anyway. Sorry, in a bad mood today.


I'm with you...and have to wonder really, what is the point of this thread? How does anyone benefit from bashing other writers?


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

In defense of the Writers' Cafe and our discussions: it's easier to discuss numbers and promotion than to discuss writing. Why? Because, as others have said, once you get past spelling (some disagreement on that), grammar (disagreement there too, especially regarding commas) and formatting--the rest is largely subjective.

Of course, if the majority of readers has a problem with some aspect of a story, character development, pacing--a writer might want to pay attention. And, yes, there are various "rules," regarding plot and character--many of those rules, however, come down to current fashion. But two intelligent readers may experience the same book completely differently--and that experience may change according to the mood of the readers. 

Personally, I have picked up a book and hated it, then picked it up at another time and loved it. That's why I find it difficult to discuss good or bad writing, unless we're discussing something along the lines of editing.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

But, I don't see how vague comments about books are helpful to anyone, authors or readers.  If there's a book you couldn't finish because of typos, etc, then tell the author.  If you had problems with the storyline or found something that didn't work for you, write a review.  That's helpful to everyone.  Making broad statements will make those who are already paranoid about their books more paranoid, and those who think their books are fine will just ignore it.  

Step back from it for a second and look at this another way.  Let's say we were talking about indie films.  Would a statement saying "i was unable to watch an indie film because of the bad lighting, come tell me (without mentioning the film name) about the movies you haven't been able to finish" be an acceptable topic?  Is it acceptable to blindly comment on films without really giving information about them?  Personally, I don't think so.  

As I've said, any two people seeing something are going to see it differently.  That's the way of the world.  If you want to put your stuff out to be read, you do want it talked about, as Camille said.  But don't you want it talked about on it's own merits or faults, not lumped in as an "indie".

In the end, it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree about things.  The great thing about the internet, is, as Camille said, you can bow out of the conversation.  And I think that's what I'm going to do.


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## BTackitt (Dec 15, 2008)

I'm sorry but WHERE is this supposed bashing? Geeze. No one has pointed a finger and BASHED anyone. No one has said "Hey I read David Dalglish's book and HATED every single sentence in it, his world building SUCKED, his characters were one-dimensional, and the book was filled with vomitous tripe." (David knows I love his books so I feel safe writing this.)

I have read over 400 indie books, and only found 2 that were in my opinion true flops. I did not point out which books they were, what they were about, or who the authors were. Indies can write great books, Indies can write flops. Trade pubs can write great books, trade pubs can write flops. It's OK to talk about it.

It's not like this is the 15th century and we hide the unwed mothers anymore.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Considering no names are being dropped, I don't see why this discussion should bother anyone. If readers are viewing this conversation, I consider that a good thing. They are seeing that indies are taking their work seriously and actually want to provide readers with a pleasing product through a discussion of quality.

As for myself, I don't differentiate between indies and other when I'm deciding what to read or while I'm reading. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are okay.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> I do think it's odd that the Writer's Cafe is almost always more about marketing, promotion, and sales than it is about writing. I have learned from those businessy threads, but it gets very repetitive, and is certainly not what I expected when I first came here. I'd love more discussions about actual writing.
> 
> And I think I'm probably behind anything Camille has said. I find I usually am, honestly.


Thanks, Genevieve.

I was shocked too at first. But then I realized that people don't talk about it not because they aren't interested, but because any discussion of craft here is shouted down. It's "bashing" your fellow authors if you want to talk about writing better.

It makes honest and serious discussion impossible, and frankly I'm so sick of it, I am thinking of leaving Kindleboards.

Camille


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

scarlet said:


> But, I don't see how vague comments about books are helpful to anyone, authors or readers. If there's a book you couldn't finish because of typos, etc, then tell the author. If you had problems with the storyline or found something that didn't work for you, write a review. That's helpful to everyone. Making broad statements will make those who are already paranoid about their books more paranoid, and those who think their books are fine will just ignore it.
> 
> Step back from it for a second and look at this another way. Let's say we were talking about indie films. Would a statement saying "i was unable to watch an indie film because of the bad lighting, come tell me (without mentioning the film name) about the movies you haven't been able to finish" be an acceptable topic? Is it acceptable to blindly comment on films without really giving information about them? Personally, I don't think so.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Scarlet; unless we're discussing specifics, this topic can't be of much value.

Maybe we should discuss *The Great Gatsby*--some people love it, some hate it. Then we could talk in specifics. I think that would be interesting.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

Oh. So this is going to be one of _those _threads. Where people keep discussing that they shouldn't be discussing something.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

pamclaughton said:


> I'm with you...and have to wonder really, what is the point of this thread? How does anyone benefit from bashing other writers?


I hope the point is that we all take a critical look at ourselves. Surely I'm not the only one who reads threads like this and starts wondering if my books are among those that people feel that way about? I admit I'm one of those who has done all her own editing. And while I think I'm good at it and the books are at a pretty high standard in that department, threads like this make me start thinking hmm. I've made enough from the three I have out I can afford editing now. Maybe it's time to run the next one by a professional and see what the difference is, see if it's worth the price.

So IMO the purpose of a thread like this isn't to bash others but to point out problems and hope everyone makes an effort to improve in that department. Same for cover and blurb threads. Price threads can give those like me who have no experimental side to them an idea of what pricing results are for others.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

daringnovelist said:


> It makes honest and serious discussion impossible, and frankly I'm so sick of it, I am thinking of leaving Kindleboards.


I hope you don't, but if you do I'd be interested in which forums you've found where there are more open discussions of craft. The ones I know of one has to lurk only to not get jumped all over as an indie.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm a person that appreciates honesty. I think a lot of people are overly nice here and unwilling to give direct feedback out of fear of author reprisals. That's unfortunate because the author will never grow. Maybe that's okay, but it's the flip side of the coin.

When my book is released, if the grammar is terrible, formatting sucks, or you just couldn't stomach the book, leave a one-star review. I'll deserve it. You won't get any complaints from me. I'll just promise to do better.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As someone who has been on KindleBoards for a very long time (literally, total time logged in: 186 days, 3 hours and 46 minutes), I've seen a bit of a change in the authors who post here.  

Initially, we just had a few authors, who were here because they owned Kindles and only later became known as authors (and who had very good books--Jeff Hepple and Mike Hicks, you know who you are).  And Boyd Morrison, who was on the cutting edge of promoting Kindle books.  Then came a wave of self published authors.  A few of them, not most, seemed to have awakened one morning and decided to write a book and were actually offended when members here tried to point out that their books might benefit from a bit of proofreading and/or editing.  Those authors aren't active here on KindleBoards anymore.  

I'm very impressed, in general, with the professionalism of the authors I see here in the Writers' Cafe, with the desire to improve in every aspect of their craft and business.  And, perhaps because as a quilter, I'm also "self-published," I find both the craft and the business side discussions very interesting--I find a great deal of commonality with what I do.  

I see this discussion as one about the importance of doing quality work, not about bashing authors.  And that discussion is worth having...and some of the comments herein have made me more interested in the authors who made them, not less.

As a reader, I'd say the Indie books I've read range from 2-5 stars, with most between 2-4 (I reserve 5 stars for books on the level with my favorite all time book To Kill a Mockingbird, though I note at least one person in this thread doesn't share my opinion. )  And I don't consider 2 stars to be a read without merit, it's my minimal standard for an enjoyable read. 1 star would be a total waste of time. 

Betsy


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Scarlet, Suzanne:

Well, I certainly was specific in my example. And the fact is, around here, people have to tiptoe carefully about what they say -- because they all know what will happen is exactly what DID happen. People hijack the thread before we can get into anything, and start throwing insults around at those who dared to be specific.

So here you go, some specifics from the O.P.:



MikeAngel said:


> A couple were so puerile (that means childish--a good word for cocktail parties), some were rife with errors of one kind or another, and some I just could never be hooked (you know, that Coleridge thing about suspending disbelief).
> 
> So my question to you fellow thespians (ain't we all actors on a stage? The last stage I was on was held up), Have you read many books here that you couldn't stomach or finish? Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?


I already followed up with one way I found immaturity to be a problem. "Rife with errors" is a subject which is beginning to bore me, because it's all anyone talks about around here, and it's really easy to fix if you are actually interested in fixing it, so I'll leave that to others to discuss.

So what about "just not hooked" and "suspending disbelief"? Those are sticky problems and ones I think we would all be very interested in. Yes, those problems are subjective and they exist in traditionally published material, but so what? We want to hook our readers. We want them to be able to suspend their disbelief. It does not matter one iota whether some commercial best selling novel failed here -- other than as a data point for us to figure out how not to fail the same way.

So I challenge you, readers AND writers to first think about what has recently failed to hook you, and then tell us about it.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

ellenoc said:


> I hope you don't, but if you do I'd be interested in which forums you've found where there are more open discussions of craft. The ones I know of one has to lurk only to not get jumped all over as an indie.


This group is excellent in many ways, and I am not likely to actually leave it, but rather I have already cut back on the time I spend here.

For mysteries, the Short Mystery Fiction Society is one of the best. They have their own weaknesses, and sore points, but they were formed originally to revive a practically dead genre, and they have NO problem with "amateurs." Crimespace doesn't have quite enough people to be useful yet, but I sometimes poke around there.

The best groups I've dealt with are pro science fiction and fantasy people. However, I have made a lot of good connections because I was a Clarion graduate, and that helps. sff.net used to be great because they have always been really supportive of SFWA -- but now that there are more options, a lot of the discussions have migrated to Livejournal and individual blogs.

If I stopped hanging out here, I would not try to replace it with a forum -- as forums go, this one is great -- I would more likely start hanging out more in the discussion areas of intelligent bloggers. I also don't go around talking up my indie published books. I go to exchange ideas and talk about indie publishing if it's relevant.

Camille


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

I can see scarlet's point about a lack of specificity leading to a meaningless conversation, and I think Suzanne's right, too, that there are a lot of real reasons not to want to publicly criticize the work of someone you interact with on a regular basis. I kind of like Suzanne's idea of talking about well known books by famous (or dead) authors, particularly as examples of specific skills or techniques or whatever.

(That's what I thought I'd see more of in the WC, like, "I realized I have a problem with managing narrative distance, I've thought about tackling it this way, anyone else have this problem, or a solution?" or whatever, but recently I've found those discussions in the book corner, instead. Or versions of those discussions, and then I've accidentally hijacked them, but still.)

Camille, I really hope you don't leave KB. I find I always look forward to your comments, and not just because I almost always agree.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

It's not necessarily the Indies, but perhaps the further down the writer road you go, the tougher you become as a critic.  This is good when you're revising your own work, but it ruins your reader side.  I find myself feeling a bit sad that I'll probably never love books the same (unquestioning) way I used to.


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## ashel (May 29, 2011)

dalyamoon said:


> It's not necessarily the Indies, but perhaps the further down the writer road you go, the tougher you become as a critic. This is good when you're revising your own work, but it ruins your reader side. I find myself feeling a bit sad that I'll probably never love books the same (unquestioning) way I used to.


Just last night, I opened a book I originally read 3-4 years ago that, at the time, blew me away. I cringed through 3 pages of great lines hidden in huge paragraphs of purple prose. I felt like I was high. Unpleasant.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Okay, Camille. Here's a specific example of a book I tried to read, but put down recently. The book has received excellent reviews, and has been highly recommended to me by my stepmother, who is an avid reader. So, I plan to pick it up again, when I have more patience. In fact, picking up the book today--when I have three weeks without work stretching in front of me--I already find I have more patience for this style.

The title: Cutting For Stone

The first time I read this, the opening just didn't grab me, and the language felt overwritten. This time I feel drawn in. The writing hasn't changed. I have. 

How does this opening strike you?

  After eight months spent in the obscurity of our mother's womb, my brother, Shiva, and I came into the world in the late afternoon of the twentieth of September in the year of grace 1954. We took our first breaths at an elevation of eight thousand feet in the thin air of Addis Ababa, capital city of Ethiopia.
  The miracle of our birth took place in Missing Hospital's Operating Theater 3, the very room where our mother, Sister Mary Joseph Praise, spent most of her working hours, and in which she had been fulfilled.
  When our mother, a nun of the Diocesan Carmelite Order of Madras, unexpectedly went into labor that September morning, the big rain in Ethiopia had ended, its rattle on the corrugated tin roofs of Missing ceasing abrubtly like a chatterbox cut off in mid-sentence. Overnight, in that hushed silence, the meskel flowers bloomed, turning the hillsides of Addis Ababa into gold. In the meadows around Missing the sedge won its battle over mud, and a brilliant carpet now swept right up to the paved threshold of the hospital, holding forth the promise of something more substantial than cricket, croquet, or shuttlecock.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> Just last night, I opened a book I originally read 3-4 years ago that, at the time, blew me away. I cringed through 3 pages of great lines hidden in huge paragraphs of purple prose. I felt like I was high. Unpleasant.


Just remember that book hasn't changed since you read it 3-4 years ago. If it was great then, it's still great now. The key to enjoying prose again is not in seeing what's wrong but in seeing past what's wrong into what's right.

I think that's one of the problems with these sorts of discussions (and I don't just mean here, but everywhere writers congregate): we often concentrate on playing not to lose rather than playing to win. What's the tagline business people were spouting a few years ago? "Good is the enemy of great."

This isn't to say you should ignore errors, but if you focus on errors in your quest for quality, you peg yourself at mediocre (i.e. "not bad.) Furthermore, sometimes the magic happens among the "errors." The key is finding the magic, and peeling away the things that distract from the magic.

Camille


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> How does this opening strike you?
> 
> After eight months spent in the obscurity of our mother's womb, my brother, Shiva, and I came into the world in the late afternoon of the twentieth of September in the year of grace 1954. We took our first breaths at an elevation of eight thousand feet in the thin air of Addis Ababa, capital city of Ethiopia.
> The miracle of our birth took place in Missing Hospital's Operating Theater 3, the very room where our mother, Sister Mary Joseph Praise, spent most of her working hours, and in which she had been fulfilled.


The formal language is a little off-putting -- but some of the best books are. If I was not in the mood to be smart and work at the reading, I would likely put that book down after the first paragraph. However if I was in the mood for a little more work, I would give it a chance... and the author had me at "Sister Mary Jo...." Didn't even have to finish the sentence to know there was a conflict here.

If the author had taken longer to get to something like that -- something beyond prose -- I would walk away and probably not come back unless it was REALLY recommended by someone I trust. Or compared to some book I really liked but started slowly.



> When our mother, a nun of the Diocesan Carmelite Order of Madras, unexpectedly went into labor that September morning, the big rain in Ethiopia had ended, its rattle on the corrugated tin roofs of Missing ceasing abrubtly like a chatterbox cut off in mid-sentence. Overnight, in that hushed silence, the meskel flowers bloomed, turning the hillsides of Addis Ababa into gold. In the meadows around Missing the sedge won its battle over mud, and a brilliant carpet now swept right up to the paved threshold of the hospital, holding forth the promise of something more substantial than cricket, croquet, or shuttlecock.


The rest of this promises an interesting setting, but nothing more. Without the nun giving birth unexpectedly to twins, it wouldn't be enough to hook me... unless it were in the style of a particular flavor of book I love.

It's a matter of promise and trust. This opening, on its own, devoid of a book description or recommendation, makes only one promise to follow up on -- the birth. The rest basically tells me this will likely be slow and atmospheric, which is fine if I'm in the mood. It might be absurdist or miraculous, like The World According to Garp, or some magical realism. I can't tell which yet though. But I think I'd know in a page or two whether it was going for something I like.

You could say the purplish prose of the opening makes a counter promise -- one of being a bit of a chore to read. Sometimes that works out wonderfully, and sometimes it's just a chore.

Camille


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

The nun as mother hooked me too. I think I missed it the first time through.


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## Skate (Jan 23, 2011)

I have to admit to only having read three Indie books so far, but I've found all three to be excellent - in writing style, plotting, grammar, punctuation, point of view...everything. But I'm very choosy before I buy. Often I don't get beyond the blurb when I'm looking for a book. Sometimes I'm even put off by the way the author comes across on the various boards. If they have a 'so what if there's a few mistakes' attitude, I don't bother looking at their book, even if it's a genre I enjoy.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Have you read many books here that you couldn't stomach or finish? Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?


Nope, I haven't read any stinkers by KB members but that could be because I tend to buy from people I see chatting here alot and I can generally tell by someones conversation whether I'd want to read their work. If their posts are rambling or incoherent I assume that's their writing style, so I don't try their books. But if an author's posts seem well thought out and intelligent and something about their cover or genre really grabs my attention I check them out. So far it's been a good system.


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## bellaandre (Dec 10, 2010)

PJJones said:


> BELLA ANDRE, you are awesome! I do believe you are on the cover of my latest RT. At least you _were_ on the cover, until a scorpion craweled beneath my magazine and, suffice it to say, that RT is history.


 PJ! Glad the issue came in handy at just the right time! And congrats on your new release.


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## Tom Junior (Apr 4, 2011)

You know you could change the topic of this thread to movies, television shows, or music and it would still make sense.  

The masses just want to be entertained and whether or not something is 'good' is open to debate. I want to be a 'good enough' writer. Meaning if people buy and enjoy what I write that's good enough for me.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> So what about "just not hooked" and "suspending disbelief"? Those are sticky problems and ones I think we would all be very interested in. Yes, those problems are subjective and they exist in traditionally published material, but so what? We want to hook our readers. We want them to be able to suspend their disbelief. It does not matter one iota whether some commercial best selling novel failed here -- other than as a data point for us to figure out how not to fail the same way.


The problem with discussing problems such as this is that the range of literature covered by authors on these boards is huge. The range exists even within genres - think of the difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.

Complicating the whole discussion is the intangible nature of a reader 'getting hooked' and 'suspending belief'. That sort of thing has less to do with the mechanical process of writing than with the voice of the writer, the almost magical ability to use the right word in the right place. Creating believable worlds that draw in the reader is the art of storytelling and is only loosely connected to the craft of writing.

Because the art of storytelling is intangible, it is best discussed using specific books/texts and not in general terms - you can make arguments about why certain books drew you in and others didn't. Making a blanket statement, like the one made by the op, is not helpful nor conducive to a constructive discussion. All that blanket statements achieve is to divide the audience into 2 camps: those who think too many indie writers release shoddy work into the public domain, and those who don't.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

To be honest--and yes, I am being honest--No one here. 

There is one book from a fellow SP/indie friend that I cannot get through because the book is clearly written for younger people (like middle-schoolers) and it's of no challenge to me to read.  Plus, the first 3-4 chapters of this book, nothing really happens! and that makes me lose interest.  But, like I said...she's not a member of these boards.  

But, I should explain that I am a fairly picky reader, and with my current budget being so limited I'm an even pickier book purchaser.  If It's not in my preferred genres (fantasy, mystery, horror, UF) I'll pass on even reading the blurb.  If I read the blurb and like it, I'll preview.  I preview EVERYTHING I read/buy, even if it's by my best friend.  If the preview doesn't hold my interest I won't buy it.

*puts on smartazz hat* 

That being said, I can easily name over 20 TP books I haven't been able to read (through the years) off the top of my head.  And, 2-3 indie books including the one I mentioned earlier, written by a friend.  (although I admit that If I did come across an indie book that had a boring premise, or that didn't have a good blurb/preview it would most likely just forget all about it. ) 

Keep in mind that it's all subjective and one person's trash is another person's treasure.  


*takes off smartass hat.*


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

It is definitely subjective, but it is not intangible.  

I'd also like to point out that the only people here who have made blanket statements are those who insist that this is "indie bashing." We're all indies here.  Look, while magic happens in a great story, writing itself is not magic.  Talking about it, and understanding it, helps us create the magic.  Suzanne brought up a great example of how magic happens.  Disagree? Say why.  Or give your own example of something that hooked or failed to hook you.


All right -- here is another common issue: flat scenes, or what I call "Banana Joke Scenes".  I see this a lot in unpublished work, and sometimes in indies.  I don't know if I see it much in traditionally published work, but I know some best selling writers whose work I haven't been able to get through who at least tend in this direction once in a while.

I'm too tired to explain it now, so I'll just copy an article I wrote for student screenwriters a few years ago:
===
I’m reading a pile of scripts right now.  Funny how a lot of common issues pop right out at you. Today’s script had a curious but common problem: There was no give and take in the scenes.  The beats were in the right place, the pacing was okay. The characters probably do have decent motivations and a character arc, but you couldn’t really tell because the scenes were so flat.

Give and take is the basis of scene structure.  You have two characters who want something. Their desires are in conflict.  In order to get what they want, they have to play a little chess game.  To play chess, you’ve got to move the pieces.  It doesn’t matter how safe your character feels behind a wall of other pieces, one of those pieces has to move with every beat.  Every bit of dialog, every action by a character changes the board.

Most people instinctively know this, but they don’t know how to do it.  So they start out with a character who, say, wants to be left alone.  And then there is somebody who desperately needs her help.  So you establish the situation with “Help me, please!”  “No!” …. and get stuck.  How do you get from there to “Okay I’ll help you”?  It shouldn’t be easy.  It’s got to take up some time.

So the writer puts in a place holder, and it goes like this:

   Help me!
   No.
   Help me, please.
   No, I won’t.
   Help me!
   No!
   Please help me! Help me help me!
   Oh, all right.

It’s like the Banana Knock Knock Joke.*  It just repeats the exact same beat, exact same info, exact same character posture, until it changes, much to the relief of every one.  And while even the most experienced writers might use this just for a place holder, you NEVER let this kind of thing live to be read by anyone.

Maybe you aren’t sure now to fix this, but it’s really pretty simple.  (It takes practice, but it’s simple.)  Make your characters negotiate.  Maybe one of them can be stupid and stubborn, but the other will have to pick up on the very first beat that she has to change tactics to persuade, force or cajole the other into changing.

Really great scenes are like a dance.  It’s step and counter-step.  There’s movement.  There’s progress.  It can be serious, subtle, playful, wild, but it does move.

(*The Banana Knock Knock Joke, for those who managed to somehow miss it in childhood, goes thusly:

   Knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who?
   Knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who?
   Knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who?
   Knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who?
   (repeat until your audience is ready to kill you and then end it)
   Knock knock. Who’s there? Orange. Orange who?
   Orange you glad I didn’t say Banana?

Camille


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## JFHilborne (Jan 22, 2011)

Glad to say almost all the indie author books I've read have been excellent. A couple didn't bowl me over, but only b/c they weren't my thing and not b/c they weren't good books.


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## Bailey Bristol (Mar 22, 2011)

My plea is that readers will download the sample and then buy. If you choose a book that's outside your interest because the cover and blurb looked good, you're headed for disappointment. That sample preview is a blessing. You'll know by the time you've read those opening pages if it's worth your time or not. Like John Locke says, readers outside your target audience are not going to like your book! 

On the other hand, just plain sophomoric writing is the pits. And yes, sophomore writing shows up in the preview. And horrid editing...or lack thereof...abounds. So I hold to my opening statement. Read the preview. If it doesn't make you desperate to buy and read on, consider your caution vindicated. 
Bailey


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't see a reason for this thread existing, for a whole crapload of reasons.

This isn't a critique site. This is a hangout for authors where readers are welcome. If you're publishing your work on Kindle there is the assumption that you believe it is worthy of being published. It doesn't mean "I" think your work is worthy of published, nor anyone else, but the author themselves. That's the whole point of self-publishing. And no one here (NO ONE) is walking around with a crown saying "self-publishing police". That's what so many of us here are trying to get away from, people other than readers judging whether or not we're "ready" or "good enough".

So yeah, you read an indie book you didn't like. Big whoop. You want to come here and out 'em by name why? Because they'll go "omg Camille is so right I need to unpublish all my work and write a better beginning." Hah. No, you'll get a flame war, as is pretty dang obvious by this own thread. Besides, you accomplish nothing. This idea of "silent approval" is nonsense. We are not the global representation of indie authors here. The Amazon sales lists are the global representation of indie authors to the vast bulk of readers. A select few here at KB might know us, yes, but that's hardly the millions that own Kindles and peruse for buys. Just because I don't out some indie author who I think sucks doesn't mean I'm condoning them. It doesn't mean I'm silently giving them approval. The only thing I could do that would let readers know in the slightest would be to write a review on Amazon. Let's just think about that for a moment. I, an indie author, feel like it is my duty to go around blasting indie books I don't like, all to somehow protect our "integrity?" Uh..no.

And all this ignores one key thing: writers tend to be...well, picky? Seems pretty obvious from this thread too. And we're dealing with competitors. And our opinions are still just that: opinions. Again, no big crown on our heads declaring ourselves the police here. No matter what, I'm still just some guy with an opinion. I am no better a judge on quality than Reader A or Reader B, so why should I think I am entitled to some righteous crusade for quality on forums and review sites? I have absolutely no doubt that there are readers here on these forums that think I am over-rated, my books are far worse than theirs, and I shouldn't have anywhere near my sales. You really think that to keep these forums in any way, shape, or form, as a valuable place of information about publishing that those people should start threads announcing their dislike for Dance of Cloak's prologue?



daringnovelist said:


> I was shocked too at first. But then I realized that people don't talk about it not because they aren't interested, but because any discussion of craft here is shouted down. It's "bashing" your fellow authors if you want to talk about writing better.
> 
> It makes honest and serious discussion impossible, and frankly I'm so sick of it, I am thinking of leaving Kindleboards.
> 
> Camille


If you want to discuss specific writing and critiquing of works in progress _join and submit to critiquing websites that have all been around for years solely for that purpose._ Whether you're self-published, or trying for traditional route, learning about writing is the same. So go there! Discussions about prices, covers, blurbs, advertising, various markets, Smashwords, Pubit, agents, selling foreign rights when offers appear, how to handle reviews...these are all things specifically involved with self-*publishing*, and hence why they are always far more involved and helpful threads *here*. We've all got links in our signatures. We're already at the big swim meet. If you can't swim, you'll drown. You don't wait for the starting pistol to turn and ask a competitor how to do the backstroke. If someone wants to know why their sales suck, and I read two lines and know they're just not a good writer...you think they'll believe me? Pack up their books and go home? Of course not. _If they considered that a possibility at all, they wouldn't be asking in public for ways to improve their sales._

So really...what you hoping to gain from this thread? Indies to admit that other indies suck? Hooray! I just see a pot purposefully stirred by an OP notorious for just that, all in hopes of a little fun and flames. Or maybe ego stroking? Yeah, my books are awesome, but man, that McAfee guy sure can't write. And dear lord, anyone who thinks all indies are amazing has their head in the sand (and hasn't spent five minutes perusing Smashwords' front page). There is nothing shocking or new here, other than vague grumblings about unnamed authors over books people didn't like. We're going to learn...what exactly? That unnamed book A had a boring lead character? That unnamed book B had bad editing? Yup, I will then take this information and....do absolutely nothing. You really, really want to discuss writing quality in indies? Start your own review site and have a ball.

Now if someone is faking reviews, manipulating systems for their benefit, using sock puppets...yes. Call 'em out. Do it. But when it comes to something so subjective as quality, let literary Darwinism take its course. The sucky authors will vanish over the time. The good ones will (hopefully) persevere over time. If you must comment, do it in a PM. We're not professional reviewers. We're not unbiased. We should all be professionals, and part of that involves knowing that as long as I act professionally, and write good books, it doesn't matter in the slightest that new indie author #573 isn't all that great. Good writers worry about their own writing, and improve. Bad ones attack everyone else's to pretend theirs is better.

Sigh.

I'm sure I had a point somewhere in all that. I think I may respond to my own post with a TLDR.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'd like to say I really appreciate where you're trying to take this, Camille. I too would appreciate having more discussions about craft. I especially liked the article you posted about scenes and negotiation. It's given me lots to think about.

I sometimes feel frustrated because I feel like there's a prevalent belief that the only thing that could possibly be wrong with a work is surface errors like grammar/spelling/typos, and if we all just hire proofreaders, that will magically fix every book. But I think that what makes a work good goes a lot deeper than that, and I do believe it's something quantifiable that can be understood, talked about, and honed. 

Here is an example of my own "failure to create magic" and how I fixed it: One of the first books I wrote had a climactic fight scene at the end of the book, and I had my main characters sitting around trying to figure out how they were going to fix the big problem. I had them talk the whole thing out, and then when I got to writing the scene where they'd vanquish the bad guys, I realized that it was really, really boring to watch them just act out what they'd talked about. 

While watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I started noticing how Buffy would always say something like, "I've got a plan..." And then it would fade out, and then they'd show the plan in action.

So I made a little rule for myself when dealing with this kind of situation in my writing. I call it "The Fade Out/Fake Out" technique for climaxes. If I write a scenario like the one above, I either fade out ala Buffy, or if I do let my characters plan things out onscreen (onpage?) then I make sure their plans go horribly wrong, so that the climactic scene is still interesting. 

I'd love to hear if other people have learned things like this as well. But perhaps I'm off topic and should start a new thread.

To pull it back to the subject at hand, I've read some awful indie books (well, most that were awful I haven't finished) and some absolutely amazing ones that blew my socks off. When they've been awful, however, it's never really been just because of editing issues. It's been because I could tell the writers didn't quite yet know how to write a story well. So, I think discussions of story crafting could be useful for all of us. 

Edited to address comment made while I was typing: This may not be a critique site, but it is titled "The Writer's Cafe." I don't think it's weird to talk about writing here. And I don't think it's a bad idea to expand the topics from the typical discussions of pricing, marketing, covers, etc. that generally go on to discussions about the craft. Everyone agrees that critiquing is beneficial to your writing when you do it for other people. Why is that? Because you recognize problems and begin to apply them to your own writing. Talking in general about what makes books work well might help people do the same thing.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

David, I've been in writing and publishing for nearly 40 years. I know where to find critique. I'm not looking for critique. I'm not looking to give critique.

Frankly, in all that time, this is the very first group of writers I've encountered where technique and theory is a forbidden subject. I have NEVER been in a writer's group before where people feel it's an insult to all writers to talk about quality issues.

If you'll look at what I've said about quality, I have not bashed indies. I think indies are setting new standards and revolutionizing publishing. (I think one relevant quote of mine might be that the very magic we seek may be in the "errors.") Nobody's telling you what to write -- that's exactly why I am against critique in this kind of environment.

Critique is not a discussion of theory in which we all are enlightened, it's generally useless criticism of a particular work.

Yes, that's what I said, and I'll say it again in big letters just to be clear: *I think 99 percent of all critique is utterly useless.* I do use it sometimes to gain perspective on what my _readers_ think, but nobody knows better what I want to write than I do, and I certainly don't know better what anybody else wants to write than they do.

This discussion could be a thousand times more useful than critique ever could be.

Why would you want to shut that down? You don't have to take part in it. If you're not interested, go read something else.

Camille


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

The most useful thing in this thread is David's post.

It's dead on but if people want to throw stones they're welcome to waste time doing so.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I replied to a thread on the Indie Writer's Unite wall about where I "think" this might have gone. The topic was something like "How much work should I put into a book before I send it to an editor?" Now, that topic would have been a better place to go with this thread, and I'll go ahead and repeat my advice in a hopefully more succinct form.

An editor can help you with three levels of service, and most new authors going straight to self-publishing have no idea that they might need the higher levels of editing help. So, the above question is different depending on whether or not you understand where you are at in the process.

1.) Substantive editing. If you are concerned that your characters aren't well developed, your plot isn't pacing well, your story is confusing all of your family members, etc., then you are in need of a substantive/literary edit. This is a specialization in fixing major problems in your story that are probably going to have major impact on sales for a debut author in self-publishing. You basically need some help becoming a better author. I took on a 3rd job to pay for this style of editing. I might have been okay with a copy edit, but as a debut author, I'd rather talk with someone who knows what they are doing and get constructive feedback.
2.) Copy editing. Your book has the main components in place, but may have small problems in flow and is definitely in need of help in grammar, style, and maybe character development. This may be something like a minor character feeling like it doesn't belong. A copy edit is a good middle point to start from with your first books. A good editor will tell you if you need substantive editing.
3.) Light-edit, proofing. Your book is so close to finished that the cover is already flapping in the wind. Your friends and authors in your critique group are high-fiving you online or in real-life and there's a lady at the Dollar General Store that keeps flashing you and asking you to sign her nipple.

If two of the three of that latter group in 3.) aren't happening, then there's probably a need for 2.) or 1.). I have no idea why the lady at the Dollar General Store keeps doing that, but I think it might have something to do with my upcoming book? No idea. Your mileage might vary with connecting those dots.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

valeriec80 said:


> I call it "The Fade Out/Fake Out" technique for climaxes. If I write a scenario like the one above, I either fade out ala Buffy, or if I do let my characters plan things out onscreen (onpage?) then I make sure their plans go horribly wrong, so that the climactic scene is still interesting.


I'm using the "fade out/fake out" technique myself in a novelette I'm writing right now. I was going to have my narrator not know what the plan was, but the story was dead. But the other night I realized that maybe he needs to be a driver in the plan. The thing that makes it work for me, though, is that the audience knows that info is being withheld, and they have proper set up so they can anticipate the twists. Then I can pull the twist a little further than they expect without it feeling like a cheat.

At least that's the plan.

Camille


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

Don't fret over the books you consider sub-par. It's a waste of good writing and promoting time.

BTW, I just bought David's first Half Orc's book and Bailey's book after reading this thread. Why? Because the covers intrigued me. Then, the samples intrigued me even more. This, and not complaining about other writers' books on a forum designed to _support_ writers, is what will sell your own books.

And as I've said before, if you really have an issue with someone else's book, there are other venues where you can complain, or you can just write a parody.


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## Casper Parks (May 1, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As someone who has been on KindleBoards for a very long time (literally, total time logged in: 186 days, 3 hours and 46 minutes), I've seen a bit of a change in the authors who post here.
> 
> Initially, we just had a few authors, who were here because they owned Kindles and only later became known as authors (and who had very good books--Jeff Hepple and Mike Hicks, you know who you are). And Boyd Morrison, who was on the cutting edge of promoting Kindle books. Then came a wave of self published authors. A few of them, not most, seemed to have awakened one morning and decided to write a book and were actually offended when members here tried to point out that their books might benefit from a bit of proofreading and/or editing. Those authors aren't active here on KindleBoards anymore.
> 
> ...


Betsy,

Enjoyed your comments. I agree with everything you posted.

Glad to see you're able to sort through the "woke up one day" and "those who have been at for years."

Harvey and the mods here are great people. Supporting Indies and giving us a chance at connecting with readers.

Thanks for the support, meaning that from the depths of my heart.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Without taking a lot of time to construct an organized reply...

I loved David's post, LOVED it, but -



daringnovelist said:


> Frankly, in all that time, this is the very first group of writers I've encountered where technique and theory is a forbidden subject. I have NEVER been in a writer's group before where people feel it's an insult to all writers to talk about quality issues.


- this has baffled me from the first day I showed up on KB. Most of the people who have responded to this thread are writers, not "just" readers. I'm a reader, "just" a reader. I've written blogs on and off for years, written professional articles here and there, done a wee bit of editing, written a LOT of web copy (so much web copy, oy,) but never any fiction, unless you count the poem about a bee in a tree that I wrote for a contest in the first grade; I came in second, behind the poem about the dog on a log.

I've read a few books from KB authors that I have adored. I've read a few more that I've wondered what ever possessed the writer to submit for self-publication. There's one book out there that I read on review request that had so many errors that I told the author I would not review it, because in spite of a great story line, a book with that many errors did not deserve a "passing" grade. (Don't go looking for it in my review profile, because I never reviewed it.) I was really shocked to see glowing reviews from other KB authors and review sites, when there were literally hundreds of technical errors, as well as plot difficulties. This book has since been extensively revised, which pleases me because it was a great story.

I should not have been the one to point this out, it should have been done long before, by one of the several writers who read the book. I'm just a reader, but I'm fascinated by craft. It makes me sad when I come into the writer's cafe, and see that it is mostly constrained to being a mutual admiration society. Support is needed, but part of support is knowing when to use constructive criticism, and if an author is not getting any traction, or receives a bad review, why is it that rarely will another writer point out obvious issues with story or structure?

I don't know how it should be, I just know it seems strange the way it is, in that everyone is a winner, everyone deserves a blue ribbon, and nobody ever loses. Personally, if I _were_ a writer, and I was struggling, I'd much prefer to know where there were problems in my writing, than to receive undifferentiated pats on the back.

All of that being said, several of the best books I've read in the last 12 months were indies. Several of the worst books I've read in the last 12 months were also indies (several were so bad I didn't even review because they were unutterable failures.) The storyline success/fail rate probably mirrors that of the trad-pub books I read, however, I've as yet never had to 1-star a traditionally published book due to spelling, grammar, word misuse, or other technical errors. Bears thinking about.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

StaceyHH said:


> All of that being said, several of the best books I've read in the last 12 months were indies. Several of the worst books I've read in the last 12 months were also indies (several were so bad I didn't even review because they were unutterable failures.) The storyline success/fail rate probably mirrors that of the trad-pub books I read, however, I've as yet never had to 1-star a traditionally published book due to spelling, grammar, word misuse, or other technical errors. Bears thinking about.


There's a difference between "bears thinking about" and "requires more than a moment to think about." This is not a difficult one to break down.

Traditionally published authors generally have a vetting process that 1) filters terrible out and 2) corrects terrible. Self-publishing has no real vetting process other than the marketplace. Consequently, while one is filtered, the other is not. There will always be a certain amount of terrible on the market with self-publishing because in this process, the market deals with the slush pile to serve as a filter and the market might also apply terrible correction via reviews that inform authors about how lacking their craft is.

Dealing with a market critiquing you REQUIRES a support network for the personality types that typically become authors. The idea is something like this:

"If I have to run out into that army," the new author says, "you guys have my back, right?"
"Yeah," David Dalglish says, "Good on you. Taking a chance and living your dream is a noble pursuit! Best of luck!"
"Thanks! Here I go!"
After six months of struggling with the marketplace, the wayward author comes back with head down. Someone has stolen her shield, a "Kick Me" sign is on her back, and children have drawn unmentionables on her helmet.
"I think I may be terrible at this whole sword-swinging thing," she says.
"Listen," David says as he takes her by the hand and massages her wrists. "You have nice hands, by the way. They're furry like a muppet's might be. Not that I know anything about that. When you get your next shield, try keeping it in front of you this time and working around the group's flank. Retreat after you've done some damage and think about what might have gone right or wrong and then keep pressing forward. Seriously, do you have a furry sister or anything like that?"

Everyone needs a support network when they are entering a huge group of critics or are being groped by a strange man. --Abraham Lincoln


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## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

bellaandre said:


> Honestly, I've found so many great books and writers from being a part of kindleboards this past year that it's made finding a new indie author/book to read feel like walking into the best candy store in the world!
> 
> I'm a fan of everyone on this board.
> 
> Bella


This - exactly the quality that is being put out by the group of people here is exceptional.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

StaceyHH said:


> I should not have been the one to point this out, it should have been done long before, by one of the several writers who read the book. I'm just a reader, but I'm fascinated by craft. It makes me sad when I come into the writer's cafe, and see that it is mostly constrained to being a mutual admiration society. Support is needed, but part of support is knowing when to use constructive criticism, and if an author is not getting any traction, or receives a bad review, why is it that rarely will another writer point out obvious issues with story or structure?
> 
> I don't know how it should be, I just know it seems strange the way it is, in that everyone is a winner, everyone deserves a blue ribbon, and nobody ever loses. Personally, if I _were_ a writer, and I was struggling, I'd much prefer to know where there were problems in my writing, than to receive undifferentiated pats on the back.


I totally understand what you're saying, Stacey. And I'm totally there with talking about what needs to be improved. However, I *only* do this when an author comes to me and asks for my opinion. (See my blog, Why is this book not selling?) I'm fine with talking about how to improve. But only if asked.

What else can I do? Start a thread and say, "So-and-so's book needs work. Let's all talk about it." No. I'm not going to publicly say whose book needs work. Who am I to say that?

Threads like this are pretty pointless because we're not talking names. The authors who really need help aren't here thinking, "Gee, I'll bet they're talking about my book. I should join a critique group." No, of course not. No one publishes thinking their book isn't ready. Everyone thinks their book is great!

And we really can't name names, can we? Can you imagine how that would go?

So we're left with letting the poor books get poor reviews and if the author is having a terrible time selling, they can submit to my blog and hopefully get some advice on how they can improve their book.

Vicki

PS, and I love you, Stacey, so I hope I'm not coming across as snippy. I think the world of you.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

Victorine said:


> PS, and I love you, Stacey, so I hope I'm not coming across as snippy. I think the world of you.


 

Everyone needs to hear that sometimes. But really, I get what you're saying. Naming names looks like a personal attack, and those who most need the help are usually the ones who least believe they are in need.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

StaceyHH said:


> Everyone needs to hear that sometimes. But really, I get what you're saying. Naming names looks like a personal attack, and those who most need the help are usually the ones who least believe they are in need.


Or even worse, they are the first ones to give up on their journey.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

rexjameson said:


> Or even worse, they are the first ones to give up on their journey.


I don't know that this is "worse." Critique is a necessary part of developing abilities. Being driven to improve can sometimes produce brilliance, and it's not unfair to use critique to weed out those who just can't hack it. I'm not saying anyone should ever respond by saying "This sucks beyond belief," but is it really the fault of the critic if honesty is taken as a reason to quit? I'm thrilled that when I said "I'm sorry, I can't review this in it's current state, there are far too many errors that need attention first," the writer accepted the criticism gracefully, and then _did the work to fix it._

But if all watchers just stand back and let the problems slip by because we are in fear of shattering a fragile ego, how does that serve?


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

I never meant to hurt anyone's feelings.  Given that we were speaking in general at the beginning of this thread, and not in specifics, I felt free to comment.

If anyone feels bashed or hurt, I am so very, very, sorry.  I wouldn't hurt any of you for the world.

I'm just trying to find paranormal fiction to promote and have had a difficult time of it. I wasn't talking about personal taste in grammar, or a writer's style.  I was talking about glaring problems that were so in my face, I had to pass them by.

Not an actual example of anyone, but an example of what I was seeing:

"His behavior was bazar."

"She seen him coming."

That type of thing.  I have read many indy books since I came here and I don't think I've discarded but one from my kindle app.  There are some wonderful and amazing stories being presented by Indies and we are all the richer for it.  This is what I want to promote.

To put my money where my (apparently big) mouth is, I intend to have a section on nonfiction paranormal on my site, but my own book won't be included.  I couldn't afford to have it edited and I won't put it on my paranormal indies site until it is.

Again, I am sorry if anyone was hurt.  That makes me feel just awful.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

StaceyHH said:


> Everyone needs to hear that sometimes. But really, I get what you're saying. Naming names looks like a personal attack, and those who most need the help are usually the ones who least believe they are in need.


There's no need to name names, because that person won't benefit from being criticized until he or she is ready anyway. (Old zen koan: when the student is ready the teacher appears. What that means is that the teacher is always there -- many teachers as a matter of fact -- but until the student is ready, the teachers are invisible. No point in trying to do any teaching until the student can see them.)

The people who learn are those discussing it. The most useful conversations are those which start "I've been seeing a lot of books which do X lately and it really bugs me." And then somebody else says, "I like X, It's my favorite part, and here's why...." "But X never has enough Y or Z in it." "Okay I can see that, but so and so wrote a great X scene with lots of Y. Short on the Z though..."

And we each figure out how to make X work for us, and the newbies who didn't even notice how they were using X in the first place, learn to think about it.

Critique can't give you that because it's not about how we all use it, it's about one writer who may already know what he or she wants.

Camille


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## Pearson Moore (Mar 14, 2011)

I think David Dalglish said it all, and in the way it needs to be said.  We're not the police here, and this is not the best place to learn craft.  We're all published authors, and this is a place for helping each other, not for tearing each other down.  Vicki has brought positive initiative to this question.  Yes, some--most--indie books suck.  They're unreadable.  But there's nothing to be gained in repeating this negative mantra.  Writers can improve.  That's Vicki's approach, and I endorse her practical way of helping to contribute to a solution.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Pearson Moore said:


> I think David Dalglish said it all, and in the way it needs to be said. We're not the police here, and this is not the best place to learn craft. We're all published authors, and this is a place for helping each other, not for tearing each other down. Vicki has brought positive initiative to this question. Yes, some--most--indie books suck. They're unreadable. But there's nothing to be gained in repeating this negative mantra. Writers can improve. That's Vicki's approach, and I endorse her practical way of helping to contribute to a solution.


This is the thing that gets me: nobody in this conversation said that indie books suck. Nobody's proposing to be the "police." That's not even _implied_. And for heaven's sake, the whole POINT of this conversation is that writer's CAN improve.

The only negativity is coming from people who are trying to stop the conversation. I think people are bringing their own baggage into it and fighting a battle that simply isn't here.

Camille


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Because by not calling out careless "authors" we are giving silent approval. I think it is vital to let readers know that at least some of us are aware of the issues and are striving for excellence. There are a whole LOT of people who refuse to by indie books -- the stigma is strong (just read the Amazon Discussion Boards). By openly saying, as Mike did in starting this thread, that there are those among us who wish to distance ourselves from the bad writers we are making it known that we recognize this problem and are striving to rise above it.


I can't agree with this. Just my opinion.

Say we read a Stephen King book and say, "He's a great traditionally-published author." Then we read Dan Brown and say, "Woah, he gives traditionally-published authors a bad name!" (Note: this is not my opinion, I rarely read either author these days. Just too busy.)

Not really. Dan Brown writing bad books gives Dan Brown a bad name. Stephen King writing bad books gives Stephen King a bad name. Most people don't even keep up with who Stephen King's publisher is, so, if King wrote a good book, a vast majority wouldn't even know if someone else published by his publisher released a bad one. Publisher and author cred relates to themselves. The same people who lump all indies together probably lump all restaurant types, all movie theaters run by the same company, or genre actors together.

When Jamie Kennedy did The Son of the Mask, it was heralded as the worst movie in history by many critics. Did this make Jim Carrie (spelling may be wrong) (The Mask's original lead character) look bad? Actually, the critics praised Carrie while bashing Kennedy. Both are comics, and they even appeared in the same movie series - and Carrie even gave Kennedy the go ahead for the role.

Good work will be praised, and bad work will be condemned. Good work will be condemned sometimes, too. It's all a matter of who's reading it and how they feel.

As far as the latest thoughts...



StaceyHH said:


> I should not have been the one to point this out, it should have been done long before, by one of the several writers who read the book. I'm just a reader, but I'm fascinated by craft. It makes me sad when I come into the writer's cafe, and see that it is mostly constrained to being a mutual admiration society. Support is needed, but part of support is knowing when to use constructive criticism, and if an author is not getting any traction, or receives a bad review, why is it that rarely will another writer point out obvious issues with story or structure?


In public? Because it quickly becomes a "Mine is so bad? Let's take at yours, shall we? HMMM!" The person who decides to appoint themselves the zealot and Lord Protector (or Lady if it pleases the court) of Literature will soon find themselves quite hated. And that's the ones who do it publicly. Do it privately? Go ahead, I don't care. Most authors wouldn't mind an email saying, "Hey, fix this and that, it's an error because..."

Then, you have the weasel-types who create a new username on Amazon to post a review. Someone posted something about "drive-by reviews" that have this characteristic, and sometimes I think it may very well be true. Although the review may be honest and all that, it's still dirty; the other person created a new account with the intent of doing damage without any possibility of reprisal or retribution. It's just another way of sucker-punching, IMO. If the Literary Overlord was so great and grand, they'd have nothing to fear from someone trying to find flaws in their own work to point out.

Which leads on to the next thought: we're hardly literati. Even many traditionally-published authors aren't literati types. The editors are the literati, and most indies either can't afford to secure such services at first or can't find an editor of that quality willing to work with them. Some would say, "Well, you have no business publishing if you can't pay the $10,000 in start-up costs!" If that were true, the marketplace wouldn't allow indies to enter it based on such a rule. Yes, traditionally-published authors have their gatekeepers, they must be vetted to gain entry, and so on; however, the marketplace has opened the gates to others without such requirements.

With books quality is a subjective thing, too. No one person can say whether or not a book is high quality or low quality without someone else saying the reverse. That's just the way it is, I'm afraid. People try to be that guy who determines quality in a way which resembles a Roman Emperor allowing or denying someone to live...










...but, in reality, it ends up being something much different...










Let's take a look at something very anticipated, but it turned out to be a terrible book. Absolutely terrible. Like, you just want to burn it in the fireplace and be done with it:










...or so says the reviews. Traditionally-published and celebrated author George RR Martin releases something that sees almost half of the customers (181 of them) saying it's a 1 or 2-star piece. 133 reviewers say it's a 4 or 5 star piece. Granted, there are plenty of the usual garbage reviews (price too high! waited to release to eBook! and whatever) that have little to do with the book's quality (as far as actually having read the thing). About 100 people are 3-star, somewhere between "Hmmm" and "Meh", but just over the point of thinking it was okay.

The professional reviewers loved it. They touted it to the highest levels of greatness. George RR Martin? Hell yeah, we're on board! The customers are having a different experience, and we'll have to wait for the more finalized verdict. He gets more reviews on that thing in a day than a vast majority of us get in sales, so it keeps jumping around. (418 customer reviews in 14 days.)

George RR Martin is one of the most famous fantasy authors of our times, and people are turning on him. I read the sample of his newest book, and I thought it was good. Of course, I've never read his work before. Many complaints are coming from long-time fans who are saying enough is enough; they're tired of reading about wine and trivial things. Some say he's getting the Robert Jordan disease. I loved Jordan's first book, but, due to a lack of time constraints, I was unable to continue the series.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased, and maybe I'm a casual type of guy. With my background it's a wonder I can even read and write, much less produce a book that others have enjoyed. But, that's a story for another day.

I don't even know why I'm still typing at this point. Everyone except myself has given up well before this point, probably somewhere after Joaqin Phoenix (spelling again... darn names) appeared.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Not to derail the thread, but I'm curious.

Camille, I'm not sure why you think critiques are worthless. I learned to write from critiques, both giving and getting them. I honestly haven't had one class other than a creative writing class in high school that was a "anything goes, just write" type of a thing.

When a critique partner pointed out to me my weak areas, using examples and specifics to my writing, I learned so much. And different critique partners saw different things.

When I give critiques, I have people tell me how helpful I was. I'm just baffled by your dislike of critiques.

Vicki


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Pearson Moore said:


> This is not the best place to learn craft.


Sounds like a waste of a good forum.



Pearson Moore said:


> We're all published authors


Actually, no. Most KB'ers are readers. But a large number of aspiring novelists frequent the Writers' Cafe.



Pearson Moore said:


> most--indie books suck. They're unreadable. But there's nothing to be gained in repeating this negative mantra.


Is this really quantifiable? Have you read most indie books? Or are you just repeating a negative mantra?



Pearson Moore said:


> Writers can improve.


You're absolutely right. That was the point most of the participants in this thread were trying to make before it got derailed.


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> This is the thing that gets me: nobody in this conversation said that indie books suck. Nobody's proposing to be the "police." That's not even _implied_. And for heaven's sake, the whole POINT of this conversation is that writer's CAN improve.
> 
> The only negativity is coming from people who are trying to stop the conversation. I think people are bringing their own baggage into it and fighting a battle that simply isn't here.
> 
> Camille


Actually the point of this thread as stated by the original poster was something else entirely.



MikeAngel said:


> Have you read many books here that you couldn't stomach or finish? Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?
> 
> Now, no names. You know writers here have thin skins. Except for that quilter babe, who has tried & failed to teach yours truly how to insert book covers in my signature.


I missed the part where the original poster implied or said this was to help improve people's writing. It's all well and good to want to turn a negative into a positive but this didn't start out as a feel good thread. It reminded me of those threads on another forum where someone points out how many bad books are being published.

Also, I find it ironic that less than a week ago there was a thread where people were quick to bash a reviewer for giving a 1 star review to a book they couldn't finish. Now, we have this thread.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

I must admit to being a bit gun-shy about discussing 'the craft' after my experiences at Authonomy. On those rather hostile boards, every discussion ended up being disciples of (moderately successful US writing guru whose name escapes me) v's everyone else. I don't think I can take another argument about the evils of 'head-hopping' and the futility of writing in the present tense.


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Herc- The Reluctant Geek said:


> ... the evils of 'head-hopping' and the futility of writing in the present tense.


Plenty of people have made plenty of money doing one or the other, or even both in the same book. Both in the same chapter. Both on the same page, and even both in the same paragraph. I haven't seen it in the same sentence, but I'm sure it exists:

"Adam looked at his shoes, thinking of whether or not Eve loved him, but she was thinking the exact opposite: she burned with desire for the man standing before her, and he couldn't even find the words to tell his true feelings to her."

Was that a triple switch? My head hurts, I'm going to bed. (I did cheat, though; they're compound sentences.)


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

BrianKittrell said:


> "Adam looked at his shoes, thinking of whether or not Eve loved him, but she was thinking the exact opposite: she burned with desire for the man standing before her, and he couldn't even find the words to tell his true feelings to her."


Adam...Adam wore _SHOES?_


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## Colin Taber (Apr 4, 2011)

Archer said:


> Adam...Adam wore _SHOES?_


Well yeah. They match his smoking jacket.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Half-Orc said:


> Yeah, my books are awesome, but man, that McAfee guy sure can't write.


Aw, man.  The truth is out, now. Dalglish, you promised you wouldn't tell anyone!



Half-Orc said:


> Good writers worry about their own writing, and improve. Bad ones attack everyone else's to pretend theirs is better.


As much as I enjoyed the entire post, THIS is the line that should be repeated over and over and over.

Honestly, threads like this one are as tasteless as they are useless.


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

It's getting harder and harder to know what to say and what not to say around here.  Guess it is time to stop posting for awhile.  I'm getting annoyed now.

If this thread was tasteless and I posted, by extension, does that mean?....

Later....


Edit:  Just wanted to add that I imagine the OP, being the provacateur that he is, is most likely sitting back with Brandy and Cigar in hand, laughing at all of us rolling around in the mud.


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## xandy3 (Jun 13, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> Honestly, threads like this one are as tasteless as they are useless.


Yeah, the equivalent of running into a crowded church on a Sunday and shouting "All religious people suck!"

RE: conversations about quality as Camille and others brought up:
IMO this forum is just not the place for it. There are A TON of other sites to receive critiques, feedback, recruit some beta readers, etc...

It's just a more marketing/promo driven place.

If you want to critique, go to OWW.


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## Dawn McCullough White (Feb 24, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> Edit: Just wanted to add that I imagine the OP, being the provacateur that he is, is most likely sitting back with Brandy and Cigar in hand, laughing at all of us rolling around in the mud.


Yes, I suspect that's exactly what he's doing.

Dawn


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## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

I am late to this thread but did want to say...

Quality is variable whether indie or traditionally published. Period. That's art.

I've seen some stinkers from all walks of publishing.

I also think being a writer ruins reading to a certain extent. You are so aware of the craft that the littlest things can be a turn off. It's hard to let go and just be with the story.

Readers are much much more forgiving and willing to go along with a story.

M


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I just want to know who I complain to in order to get the last 20 minutes of my life back?  

Seriously, y'all (I said that to make the Cowboys fan feel more at home): SAMPLE. If the sample is rubbish, the book is probably more so.

Wah.


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## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> "Quote from: Half-Orc on Yesterday at 09:02:43 PM
> 
> Good writers worry about their own writing, and improve. Bad ones attack everyone else's to pretend theirs is better."
> 
> ...


Ditto! The Davids are wise. It's worth repeating DD's line: "Good writers worry about their own writing, and improve. Bad ones attack everyone else's to pretend theirs is better." --

There's really not much left to say.

Sandy


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## JeanneM (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh for  crying out loud.  No one NO ONE attacked anyone personally.  Why everyone is getting in a huff about it is beyond me.

Why, they are even quoting and double quoting the Davids!!  OOOh....

This place has changed and it isn't much fun being here anymore.  Too many people starting trouble and insulting others for merely making a generic observation.  

I will come in when I need to for my site, which incidentally features the two Davids! despite being insulted by them....but other than that, I'm gone.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

JeanneM said:


> I will come in when I need to for my site, which incidentally features the two Davids! despite being insulted by them....but other than that, I'm gone.


If I catch you before you go...where exactly did I insult you?


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

My personal opinion is that no subject which invites honest discussion and the exchange of ideas is a waste of time or serves ill purpose. Mike Angel (who can be provocative at times) made an observation without pointing fingers at anyone. I then posted and gave my observations, again without pointing fingers. Jeanne did the same -- then suddenly this turned into an us-vs-them (though I have no idea who "us" and "them" are) p*ssing contest.

Point 1. 
No matter what anyone here says to the contrary many, many, many readers have an "attitude" about indie writers -- just check the Amazon Discussion Boards for proof of that.

Point 2. 
No matter what anybody here says a good many indie writers publish books that are sloppy in their formatting, editing, grammar, punctuation, etc. to the point where it turns readers off -- just check Red Adept's or Big Al's review sites for proof of that.

Point 3. 
And, finally, no matter what anybody here says, writers who make a commitment to quality in their own work help to elevate the perceptions in points 1 and 2. above. You get to choose whether you are one of those committed writers or not.


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## PMartelly (May 1, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I totally understand what you're saying, Stacey. And I'm totally there with talking about what needs to be improved. However, I *only* do this when an author comes to me and asks for my opinion. (See my blog, Why is this book not selling?) I'm fine with talking about how to improve. But only if asked.
> 
> What else can I do? Start a thread and say, "So-and-so's book needs work. Let's all talk about it." No. I'm not going to publicly say whose book needs work. Who am I to say that?
> 
> ...


QFT. :]


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

My problem, and I realize it's an insoluble one, is that this is a place filled with bullies and censors.

It's not that people agree or disagree with any particular point, it's that you can't have a grown up conversation around here.  There are a group of people will intentionally derail you every single time. 

I'm sick of the "group mind" censorship. I'm sick of the bullying. I'm sick of the childishness.  Even when the mods drop in and make a gentle reminder, people just ignore them and derail any discussion they don't like anyway.

There are a lot of people I like here, so I'm sticking around as a member so I can be messaged, but the forum has become useless.

Camille


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## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Without enmeshing myself in this flaming turd of a thread, I just want to say that I hope the takeaway from this isn't that we don't discuss the craft of writing in the Writer's Cafe. People who don't want to participate in any given discussion don't have to.

I don't always agree with Camille (or she with me), but I appreciated some of the things she said, like the thing about the banana knock knock joke. That was an excellent example of good craft-related topic.

Maybe it would've been better to have that discussion in a new thread, though, after the way this one started. I think the OP is where the problem began.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

If I may (respectfully) make a couple of points of my own...



Kathleen Valentine said:


> My personal opinion is that no subject which invites honest discussion and the exchange of ideas is a waste of time or serves ill purpose. Mike Angel (who can be provocative at times) made an observation without pointing fingers at anyone. I then posted and gave my observations, again without pointing fingers. Jeanne did the same -- then suddenly this turned into an us-vs-them (though I have no idea who "us" and "them" are) p*ssing contest.
> 
> Point 1.
> No matter what anyone here says to the contrary many, many, many readers have an "attitude" about indie writers -- just check the Amazon Discussion Boards for proof of that.
> ...


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> Honestly, threads like this one are as tasteless as they are useless.


As there often is on a discussion board, the topic veered in two directions. The original post was in poor taste, and seems to be the OP's way of saying "Books on here are awful." But the tangential part of the conversation has some merit, and I think that may be one of the things that is upsetting certain people when it's suggested that the discussion is "useless" or otherwise worthless.

_Most_ of the people on this thread love reading or writing, or both. _Some_ of the people on this thread see threads like "why isn't my book selling?" or "why did I get a bad review?" as a chance to pitch in and help the writer bring out their own potential. Unfortunately, when a conversation around here starts to head toward criticism (criticism is not a dirty word,) there are a few self-appointed peacekeepers who feel like they need to step in and "remind" everyone to only say nice things or the thread is worthless.

It's no skin off my back, since I'm not an editor, I'm not invested in the idea of writers making changes, and if a book desperately needs help, I just skip those books. But if this were my craft and/or profession, I might feel differently about all the gold stars and back pats.

Among other things, I'm a photographer. I know how fragile people get about work. I would NEVER advocate calling out names, especially without context. (Brian, I really hope you were quoting me as a springboard, and not to suggest I would ever do such a thing. Because it really didn't come off that way, and I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't just insinuate a whole bunch of nasty motives to my words.) As a photographer, I've been on the receiving end of a call out from a jealous photographer. In fact, I walked in on the character assassination while it was in progress. (Long story.) It killed my joy for a long time. I quit doing any art shooting for 6 months. I really wanted to retaliate. (Really, really. I didn't.) I didn't learn a thing from it either, there was no value in the calling out, it wasn't criticism, it was just nastiness.

On the other end of the scale, I used to participate heavily at a photographer's forum, and if you posted a photo, you'd get real critique mixed in with the "pretty!" "nice!" "awesome!" comments. This is always worthwhile. I am a better photographer because of it. Some of the advice was good, some wasn't, but there's value in the exercise.

It should be the same with writing. The gold stars and pats on the back are awesome ego boosters, but has one person ever improved from gold stars and pats?



Kathleen Valentine said:


> My personal opinion is that no subject which invites honest discussion and the exchange of ideas is a waste of time or serves ill purpose.


This. Whether or not the OP intended to start an incident.


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## StaceyHH (Sep 13, 2010)

_Sheila_ said:


> If I may (respectfully) make a couple of points of my own...
> 
> I write. I don't craft. I don't ask people to critique. I am not, nor do I aspire to be, Hemmingway. I write silly little books that make some people smile, and since I've been told by more than one person that they smiled when they were sitting in the hospital with a loved one, or during chemo -- I'm good with writing silly little books, not crafting the next classic. I guess that means that I am not committed to the craft. I can live with that, but I don't want people laughing and pointing at me (or anyone else) because of that.


I think this is craft. Craft is not defined by how soaring or how childlike your work turns out to be, it's about learning to do what you have chosen to do, with skill. If you strive to be skilled at producing a silly little book that makes people smile, you are a craftswoman.

I have a ceramicist friend who is a brilliant potter. He has trained with some of the most famous potters in the world, and his work is stunningly beautiful. He also makes owl sake cups. They are silly little things that are in no way to be compared to the other art he is producing. But they are well done, and they make me smile, and they perform the function for which they are intended. Is that not craft?


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## joanhallhovey (Nov 7, 2010)

I will mention a name but only because she is no longer with us.  Virginia Wolfe's 'To the Lighthouse'.  I tried to finish it a number of times without success.  It's a slim little book, too.  If I'd taken it as part of a university course I might have managed it.

Best, Joan


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

StaceyHH said:


> I think this is craft. Craft is not defined by how soaring or how childlike your work turns out to be, it's about learning to do what you have chosen to do, with skill. If you strive to be skilled at producing a silly little book that makes people smile, you are a craftswoman.
> 
> I have a ceramicist friend who is a brilliant potter. He has trained with some of the most famous potters in the world, and his work is stunningly beautiful. He also makes owl sake cups. They are silly little things that are in no way to be compared to the other art he is producing. But they are well done, and they make me smile, and they perform the function for which they are intended. Is that not craft?


Thank you Stacy, just when I despaired, you came through with something so true.

This is exactly what craft is. This is why you can't leave discussions of craft to critique.

I'd like to point out one other thing: I have at least one book which I am sure would fit in the O.P.s list of books he couldn't finish, if not several. This isn't about talking behind people's backs. This isn't about criticising individuals. The O.P. did not start this fire. People brought their own torches and fuel to this. Starting a new thread is not going to fix that. It doesn't work.

Camille


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

I got drawn into this thread, not by the opening, but by how the thread developed. 

I enjoy discusssions about craft. And I also get tired of all the threads about promotion, sales, reviews. But I keep coming back to Kindleboards, because the mods are great and, generally, there is an attitude of mutual respect and comradery here, which I enjoy.

Camille, if you're open to it, why not start another thread on craft. You make a lot of useful and interesting comments.

And, Stacey, I always look forward to your comments. I really love getting input from readers and people who work with other mediums, like you.


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## Ty Johnston (Jun 19, 2009)

This is what constitutes a "flame thread" on Kindleboards? _Really_?

I realize KB is a pretty safe place, but have you people spent much time elsewhere online? This place is love and kittens compared to the majority of forums I've seen (though I tend to not take part in the nastiness).

And as for the OP being a troll, or worse, if that's the case then he's one of the weakest trolls I've ever seen. He asked if others had read any books by KB authors which the reader had not liked and/or had not been able to finish, though I admit he was a little brunt in some of his word usage. He specifically stated not to mention names. Where is the harm in this?

I know we writers as a group are generally thin-skinned, but come on? Nobody was originally being called out. No names were to be used. As a mostly public forum, it's open for discussing whatever those on the forum want to discuss within the boundaries of the site's terms and the moderators' decisions. Those who wish to not take part in a particular discussion have other options.

God, I feel like I'm Harlan Ellison or something over here.


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Camille, I wrote my last post before I read yours. Seems you're not open to another thread right now. Maybe later. I always enjoy your insightful comments.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> People who don't want to participate in any given discussion don't have to.


Finally, someone who ACTUALLY gets it. I think the problem lies with the fact that some of the author members on this board hang out on this forum so much, they think it's THEIR forum and that they get to decide which threads are useful and which ones aren't. Easiest thing to do is to simply stay away from the threads you don't like. That is, unless it isn't the OP that really is the provocateur, but rather the self-appointed Forum Police.


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## _Sheila_ (Jan 4, 2011)

I must be very unclear on the concept...



StaceyHH said:


> I think this is craft. Craft is not defined by how soaring or how childlike your work turns out to be, it's about learning to do what you have chosen to do, with skill. If you strive to be skilled at producing a silly little book that makes people smile, you are a craftswoman.
> 
> I have a ceramicist friend who is a brilliant potter. He has trained with some of the most famous potters in the world, and his work is stunningly beautiful. He also makes owl sake cups. They are silly little things that are in no way to be compared to the other art he is producing. But they are well done, and they make me smile, and they perform the function for which they are intended. Is that not craft?
> 
> ...


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## SuzanneTyrpak (Aug 10, 2010)

Ty Johnston said:


> This is what constitutes a "flame thread" on Kindleboards? _Really_?
> 
> I realize KB is a pretty safe place, but have you people spent much time elsewhere online? This place is love and kittens compared to the majority of forums I've seen


So I've heard. Those places don't interest me. Not that I can't dish it out (I'm from NY, and I've been around), but I don't like to waste time with negative people. I like to waste time here!!!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

SuzanneTyrpak said:


> Camille, I wrote my last post before I read yours. Seems you're not open to another thread right now. Maybe later. I always enjoy your insightful comments.


This isn't the first time this has happened - it happens all the time actually. You're welcome to try to get a serious conversation about craft going here, but unless people like Mike Angel and Julie can post freely without a pack of bullies flocking in to prevent the discussion from happening, it won't be useful.

I've trying for a while now, but the bullies have won. I'm sick of it.

Camille


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I have to say, I haven't exactly seen the conversation stopping.  I'll also note that, if you want to have a discussion, not responding to people who try to derail the conversation is a good technique. 

I second or third the recommendations to start a thread about craft.  Although I think that is a worthy discussion, it really isn't the topic that David (MikeAngel) started, though in the way of KB threads, this thread has gone in its own direction.

Since David hasn't seen fit to participate since he started it, and since the discussion seems to have devolved to people defending their positions, I invite you to start a thread about craft and move on from this one.  I do appreciate the courtesy everyone has shown in the midst of violent (by KB standards) disagreement...

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

daringnovelist said:


> ...unless people like Mike Angel and Julie can post freely without a pack of bullies flocking in to prevent the discussion from happening, it won't be useful.
> 
> I've trying for a while now, but the bullies have won. I'm sick of it.


Bravo, Camille.


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

StaceyHH said:


> The original post was in poor taste, and seems to be the OP's way of saying "Books on here are awful."


Yes. That was the point I was trying to make.

The rest of the discussion is up for debate, but the original purpose of this thread was both tasteless and useless. That's all I was tryin' to say.


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## Cindy416 (May 2, 2009)

David McAfee said:


> Yes. That was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> The rest of the discussion is up for debate, but the original purpose of this thread was both tasteless and useless. That's all I was tryin' to say.


Amen, David. (I thought the OP was condescending, as well. I don't need to have words defined for me. Geesh.)


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## Margo Lerwill (Jun 13, 2011)

Ty Johnston said:


> God, I feel like I'm Harlan Ellison or something over here.


Totally off-topic (which might be a good thing), my hometown is a conservative little backwater (no matter what the population is), and the local writing organization is dominated by very proper, very conservative, very elderly women who would make Queen Elizabeth look like a shameless libertine. One year, for their annual writing conference, they let someone's grandson arrange for some writer named Harlan Ellison to be the guest of honor. 

The keynote speech was great, mostly dead silent except for the occasional gasp and a fork hitting a plate as someone dropped it in horror. On the upside, the class he taught was almost entirely empty. Those of us who knew who he was (and wanted to take advantage of the first page critiques he was giving) got a LOT of personal attention. He was a great sport and let it be known he really wanted to come back again. The writing organization coolly declined to have him back.


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## Sandra Edwards (May 10, 2010)

David McAfee said:


> Yes. That was the point I was trying to make.
> 
> The rest of the discussion is up for debate, but the original purpose of this thread was both tasteless and useless. That's all I was tryin' to say.


At the risk of being slammed for "quoting and requoting the Davids"...ditto!


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## Jason Kristopher (Jun 1, 2011)

Would I like to be warned about poorly-written, poorly-edited books _before_ I purchase them? Sure. Who wants to waste their money?

I'm not sure a straight-up list or even a discussion about several books would be the way to do it, primarily because I don't think it's that effective. Posting a critical review (meaning one in which the reader obviously read or at least put in a good effort to read the book) would be a better use of one's time. Plus, if there are enough negative reviews, then perhaps the author would take some of the criticism to heart. But criticism itself is not to blame, nor should it be "nannified" out of the standard procedure for publishing works.

Criticism is "the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work." [Google Definitions]

Everyone - not just writers - is thin-skinned in some way when it comes to criticism. The very idea of criticizing a work causes some people to get defensive, regardless of the content of the criticism. Let's face it; some people assume that their work is perfect straight out of the gate, with no need for revision or editing.

Of course, they're wrong. There is no one - and I mean *no one* - whose prose is so perfect when first laid down as to require no additional work. Anyone who says differently is a fool, plain and simple. Writers know this, even if they don't want to admit it to themselves. Anyone who is not willing to entertain even the idea that their work needs... well, work... is someone who's writing I don't care to read in the first place.

Sure, there's tons of horrible books out there. And tons of great ones. And plenty that are in between, and could be made great by the ever-sharp axe of the critic.

So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Criticism is a good and necessary thing. Derision for the sake of itself is not.

Learn to differentiate the two.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

Jason Kristopher said:


> Would I like to be warned about poorly-written, poorly-edited books _before_ I purchase them? Sure. Who wants to waste their money?
> 
> I'm not sure a straight-up list or even a discussion about several books would be the way to do it, primarily because I don't think it's that effective. Posting a critical review (meaning one in which the reader obviously read or at least put in a good effort to read the book) would be a better use of one's time. Plus, if there are enough negative reviews, then perhaps the author would take some of the criticism to heart. But criticism itself is not to blame, nor should it be "nannified" out of the standard procedure for publishing works.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree.

Regarding the OP -- Mike Angel gave his opinion. Some people found it objectionable and want to shut him up. Some people thought he was making a good point and offered their experiences. I'm not interested in critiquing the manner in which Mike made his point -- we are all entitled to our own style -- but, in my opinion, the only people who would have an interest in shutting him up completely would be those for whom his observations hit too close to home.

I think all of us benefit from reminders that we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard if we want to be taken seriously as writers. Some people aren't interested in producing quality literature, they just want to put their stories out there and make some money doing it. That is fine with me but trying to silence someone making a plea for taking pride in the work one puts out in the world only perpetuates the belief that indie writers are hacks who couldn't get published by "real" publishers.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

_*Tried to read what? And couldn't what? *_
I read the first post, brushed over the rest and decided that since everyone else had posted here, that I should, too. Just in case. Usually I get to a thread late due to my busy schedule and am unable to thoroughly read and enjoy the numerous posts ahead of me. Sometimes I find threads like this one and I simply wonder why this thread exists. Normally, if I buy a book that I cannot finish for whatever reason, I attribute it to my own personal tastes. The book was just not my cup of tea. I have never felt the need to go on line and bash a book with a horrible review because I know how hard it is to get a good book out there properly edited, free from mistakes and beyond reproach. I saw a thread the other day on Facebook talking about how wonderful Victor Hugo's classic Les Miserables novel is and how it touched their lives. I read the book even though I didn't like it simply because it was a classic. I wanted to post on that thread that the book made me want to cry and poke out my eyes and how I thought that the title was a very apt title for the work, but I didn't. But, hey! That's just me. 
So now that I've posted in this thread that everyone else is posting in, I am going to go and poke out my remaining eyes. (You see I accidentally crossed myself with a spider last night when I was trying out my new transporter machine and I now have extra eyes to poke out.)


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> *I think all of us benefit from reminders that we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard if we want to be taken seriously as writers. *


Fair enough. But pray tell me, how does a post where indie authors gather to discuss books they read and hated (without naming the books OR the authors) help _anyone_ be a better writer?

"I read a book that sucked."

"So did I."

"Me, too."

"Darn, that's amazing! I also read a sucky book once. Wow!"

I feel like a better writer already.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

David McAfee said:


> Fair enough. But pray tell me, how does a post where indie authors gather to discuss books they read and hated (without naming the books OR the authors) help _anyone_ be a better writer?
> 
> "I read a book that sucked."
> 
> ...


Well said! Bravo!!


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

David McAfee said:


> Fair enough. But pray tell me, how does a post where indie authors gather to discuss books they read and hated (without naming the books OR the authors) help _anyone_ be a better writer?
> 
> I feel like a better writer already.


Hopefully it would spark a discussion rather than a bash-fest. It's not about making oneself feel better as a writer by any means. I KNOW many people are not going to like my books and that is fine -- there are many types of books I don't even bother to sample (as I said in my first post) because I know I won't like them. I was rather impressed by the people who posted here saying they were readers -- not writers -- and contributing their perspectives. Some don't care if a book is badly proofed and edited as long as they like the story, others do.

There seems to be a tremendous amount of defensiveness and tit-for-tat in some of the responses here. What good does THAT do


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> Hopefully it would spark a discussion rather than a bash-fest. It's not about making oneself feel better as a writer by any means. I KNOW many people are not going to like my books and that is fine -- there are many types of books I don't even bother to sample (as I said in my first post) because I know I won't like them. I was rather impressed by the people who posted here saying they were readers -- not writers -- and contributing their perspectives. Some don't care if a book is badly proofed and edited as long as they like the story, others do.
> 
> There seems to be a tremendous amount of defensiveness and tit-for-tat in some of the responses here. What good does THAT do


I direct your attention to the original post that started this thread:



MikeAngel said:


> Without mentioning any names (to save the guilty from the innocent), I've been around here since last Christmas (my gift to you). In that time, I've read several books of authors here. A few I was unable to finish, or if I did finish them was unable to review them.
> 
> A couple were so puerile (that means childish--a good word for cocktail parties), some were rife with errors of one kind or another, and some I just could never be hooked (you know, that Coleridge thing about suspending disbelief).
> 
> ...


Please highlight for me the section where the OP tries to start an actual, honest-to-goodness _helpful_ discussion on which elements of the craft work and which do not. What I gathered from his initial post is "Hey, guys...some of your books really sucked. What about you? Have you read any books that sucked? No names, now."

I also especially enjoyed the part where the OP felt the need to define "puerile" for all of us simple writers who don't know what it means.

Now, if he had opened with something like "I read a book the other day where it was clear the author relied on Spell Check for his edits. Have any of you ever done this? Why?" That would have sparked an interesting discussion on the merits of copyeditors, rather than the broad, thiny veiled insult he presented instead.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Posting here since Camille's "I'm leaving you guys" post is locked.
-----

You need a night of sleep and a good novel in your lap.

Fake leaving or grand standing so you can moderate the supposed self-moderators you don't agree with to stop their brand of self-moderation? Did that sentence make sense to you? It shouldn't. You claim to be a voice of reason, so how about doing something rational. Instead of leaving forums in a huff and contributing to the perception of thin-skinned self-published authors, start a thread about an important topic to you and ignore people that you feel are not adding to the discussion. Respond only if you feel you must.

There were people in this thread that expressed their opinion that the thread served no purpose other than to bandwagon about quality of all independent authors being poor. There were people that said they would do better. There were people that claimed marketing, pricing, and other such topics were more useless than craft discussions. There were literally dozens of directions people wanted this thread to go. You're claiming persecution because you choose to skip over a large portion of the thread responses. You seem to want to fight everyone who disagrees with you instead of SHOWING people a better alternative. Telling instead of showing... geez, that seems craft related...

Anyway, you want to talk about craft? Why not talk about craft in a thread that makes sense to talk about craft (like the one that Suzanne started)? If you are swimming in a stream of filth, when you can clearly see a clean water reservoir just over the outer banks, why not move into the purified water and beckon people in instead of yelling at passersby on the beaches to simply complain about your predicament in the dirty water? In other words, don't get upset when you try to divert a trolling thread about the poor quality of all indie authors that MikeAngel read into a craft thread, after you've thrown in your own blanket quality statements into the mix, of course. The thread already had a negative purpose, and people mostly responded to that. It'll be okay. Just start contributing to threads that constructively sculpt other authors. Or if you feel it's best to only participate in stereotyping and general statements, then at least admit that you have no intention of constructive criticism or mutually working towards a useful endeavor. I'm hoping it's more of the former.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

"Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?"

I thought that was a very worthwhile question and I think a few people tried to answer it. I did by saying that I was confused by books that were badly written and yet very big sellers. Jeanne did by saying she was conflicted over maintaining the standards she wants to on her new blog venture or accepting secondary material. A few other people did too by saying they didn't care if the craftsmanship sucked as long as they liked the story.

I'd still be interested in knowing how much readers are willing to overlook for the sake of a story they liked. My problem is that if the writing/formatting/grammar/etc. is bad I'll give up before the story gets established. It's kind of like driving to the Godiva outlet store for a huge sale, how many potholes will you willingly endure?


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

But with anonymous examples, how would a writer know they needed to improve? Seriously, that's what reviews and critique sites are for. Just noting that you read a book that you thought was poorly written, even though it is a best seller, does not enable anyone reading your comment to know what NOT to do.

For example, if I were to say on here that I thought Mike Crane (just using you as an example, Mike, because I know you can take it) relied too heavily on puns, or that he seemed like he was in love with the word "beguiled", or that he needed to pay closer attention to the difference between "pour" and "poor," then at least he would know what it was I didn't like about his work, and so would anyone else who read the comment.

But if I said "I read a book where the writer wrote badly and it left me feeling ripped off," it wouldn't help anyone.

Now, I'm not saying we need to start bashing each other's work here in public. I'm just of the opinion that an anonymous thread with the sole purpose of gathering everyone into a clacking, clucking circle so they can agree that some people just can't write is useless, takes up a lot of space and time, and accomplishes not a d*mn thing.


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

David McAfee said:


> Now, I'm not saying we need to start bashing each other's work here in public. I'm just of the opinion that an anonymous thread with the sole purpose of gathering everyone into a clacking, clucking circle so they can agree that some people just can't write is useless, takes up a lot of space and time, and accomplishes not a d*mn thing.


I see it differently. I don't see it as an opportunity to bash or to correct any one else. I thought his question -- "Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?" -- was interesting because I've felt all three and I often wonder what I am missing. I see it more as a what-am-I-not-getting? kind of question. I also see it as an opportunity for people to talk about what they look for in a book.

My statement was absolutely sincere, when I read the sample of a book and I can't get through the sample and yet everyone is praising it and it is getting lots of sales I seriously wonder what my problem is. Do I have unrealistic expectations? Are the authors of these books using some fabulous promotional technique I'm clueless about? Is this a popularity contest? I have felt all of the things Mike mentioned, confused, conflicted and condemnatory, and I genuinely wonder if I am alone in that. (Let me add I felt the same way about _The DaVinci Code, The Secret Life of Bees _and _The Help_ -- so it's not just indies. But those authors don't post here for some mysterious reason.)


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## kyrin (Dec 28, 2009)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> "Have you felt confused, conflicted, and condemnatory?"
> 
> I thought that was a very worthwhile question and I think a few people tried to answer it. I did by saying that I was confused by books that were badly written and yet very big sellers. Jeanne did by saying she was conflicted over maintaining the standards she wants to on her new blog venture or accepting secondary material. A few other people did too by saying they didn't care if the craftsmanship sucked as long as they liked the story.
> 
> I'd still be interested in knowing how much readers are willing to overlook for the sake of a story they liked. My problem is that if the writing/formatting/grammar/etc. is bad I'll give up before the story gets established. It's kind of like driving to the Godiva outlet store for a huge sale, how many potholes will you willingly endure?


You know some people in construction ask that question whenever they take a building contract. How much can we get away with before the safety inspector notices? Answering that question and implementing it never ends well for anyone involved.

For writing, it's far better to write the best story you can and publish it the best way you can instead of asking "how much can I get away with before someone says this is crap".


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## Kathleen Valentine (Dec 10, 2009)

kyrin said:


> For writing, it's far better to write the best story you can and publish it the best way you can instead of asking "how much can I get away with before someone says this is crap".


Well, I certainly can't argue with that.


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## Sean Sweeney (Apr 17, 2010)

I want a thread that has nothing but McAfee and Dalglish looking like Sean Connery wannabes, and Dalglish being wooed by Kermit. Can we have a thread like that


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Sean Sweeney said:


> I want a thread that has nothing but McAfee and Dalglish looking like Sean Connery wannabes, and Dalglish being wooed by Kermit. Can we have a thread like that


Oh, god, no. Please....not that....please don't do it, Sean...


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Sean Sweeney said:


> I want a thread that has nothing but McAfee and Dalglish looking like Sean Connery wannabes, and Dalglish being wooed by Kermit. Can we have a thread like that


We might need to start a fresh one, because the other one is a bajillion pages long now.


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## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Franklin Eddy said:


> I think authors tend to be more critical than regular readers. They look for errors and all kinds of things instead of just enjoying the story. We forget that we are not proofreading, but just reading for pleasure.


This is true, but I see a books published that need an editor's touch. Again, Kindle Direct is wonderful but allows an overeager author to publish a first or second draft when the work needs several more revisions.


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## tkmurphy (Apr 21, 2011)

It depends on the person. I read everything-westerns, detective, scifi,erotica, nature(non-fiction), horror,psychic,talking to the dead-just about everything. I have never bought a book by genre. During my bookstore haunting days, I would just spend hours there,looking through books reading them partially . Out of maybe 70-90, I used to buy one. Nothing wrong with the books-all were publised- but certain books have a certain "something" .

Now, I rarely go to a bookstore, but do miss that. I do read exercpts and buy online mostly and do load up on numerous number of free books. I don't see that much of a difference in my sample/buy ratio. There is still only a few that "call" to me and I buy. Now that i think of it, that "soemething" is that I totally forget myself and immesrse myself in the book-formatting, proof reading all don't matter if the story pulls me in completely. Now if the latter were extremely bad, then of course you can't even read the book, but I have neevr come across a book that bad.

Funny thing is that the books that I loved years back, do nothing for me now. So I think this thing varies not only person to  person, but also for the same person across time.

There is a reason for the old phrase,"One man's meat is another man's poison."


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## Fredster (Apr 11, 2011)

Am I the only one who wonders, upon reading a post like "...and I read this one indie book that sucked so much I couldn't finish it," if the poster is talking about _my_ book?


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## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Fredster said:


> Am I the only one who wonders, upon reading a post like "...and I read this one indie book that sucked so much I couldn't finish it," if the poster is talking about _my_ book?


Of course not, and I don't feel that's a bad thing; it's recognizing that the OP may not be in your target market, so you're on the right track with your thinking. Saying, "No way, it couldn't be MY book!" is just unreasonable and silly. As I said earlier, no one writes a book that everyone is going to love.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Fredster said:


> Am I the only one who wonders, upon reading a post like "...and I read this one indie book that sucked so much I couldn't finish it," if the poster is talking about _my_ book?


I think the real question for me is would I actually care if the OP was talking about my book? The answer is nope.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Phew, that was one long shift at the hospital. Time to take a nap, but maybe I'll check KB first. My marketing plan could use some work...






...well then...that looks fun...but maybe I'll just take that nap instead.

B.


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## gregoryblackman (Jul 11, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> My problem, and I realize it's an insoluble one, is that this is a place filled with bullies and censors.
> 
> It's not that people agree or disagree with any particular point, it's that you can't have a grown up conversation around here. There are a group of people will intentionally derail you every single time.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that, but I have to say, my experiences have been completely different. Every person has been incredibly helpful, and my novel is 100% better because of everyone I've talked to. Hope things work out on another board. All the best,

Gregory Blackman


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## gregoryblackman (Jul 11, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> Phew, that was one long shift at the hospital. Time to take a nap, but maybe I'll check KB first. My marketing plan could use some work...
> 
> ...well then...that looks fun...but maybe I'll just take that nap instead.
> 
> B.


Hilarious. Well played....well played.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2011)

When I was a kid, about 7 or 8, Sis and I used to stay at Grandma's farm for a week at a time. Next to her place was a field of turkeys, most of them pretty crammed in. Some of the turkeys were quite stunning, with elegant tail feathers and vibrant colors; most of them were rather drab. 

When an airplane would fly low over the farms the turkeys would have a conniption, going berserk for 30 seconds or more. The result was that often a few of the turkeys would drop dead from the chaos. Sis & I watched this with the gleeful horror of children. We tried to make noise next to the turkeys, to have fun as ignorant kids are wont to do. We'd whistle, bang pans together and the like, just to hear the squawk. It got to be pretty dull entertainment after awhile, but there wasn't much else to do on the farm. 

That was many decades ago. Today if I saw a flock of turkeys I'd admire them, especially the most beautiful among them. I wouldn't whistle or bang pots or holler. I might even try to make friends with a few of them. Of course, most of the turkeys would be offended I was there admiring them. They might see my presence as useless. I wouldn't allow that to stop my admiration of the best among them.

Now as for discussions of craft, I'm all for it. As for improving my writing or helping others to do so, that's been my heart's desire for at least 15 years now. I'm a disciple of Peter Elbow, and if you don't know who he is, I hope you'll look him up. No, he's not a novelist; he's a composition theorist from the school labeled "expressivist," who believes "anyone can" when it comes to expressing themself in writing and learning how to write a good sentence. I have enough material in my cabinet to start 50 craft threads, but I may only start one or two. I doubt if any of them will have the multiplicity of reactions this one has. Did I offend you? If so, I'm tempted to send you a big raspberry...collect. Did I provoke a discussion? It seems so, though that was not my aim. By sharing my confusion, conflictedness and feelings of condemnation, I merely wish to ask if I was missing something. I realize not every writer here is a Hemingway. I am not a Hemingway. But, as he said, "sometimes a big fish is just a big fish." And sometimes shared feelings are simply shared feelings. 

And for those of you who missed the humor in my original post, I feel so very sorry for you. Without humor life is like those dullest of turkeys who keel over at every whistle.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

I can't believe it! The prophesies are true, even the bit about the affinity with turkeys. 

He has come, and digital publishing will never be the same again.


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

David, reading this last post reminded me of the beginning of Kung Fu Panda. Perhaps it was because I kept mumbling "awesome".






"My eyes! He's too awesome!" Your bait worked, and your turkey metaphor is amazing... ly awesome.

P.S. Mike Angel is a great character in your books and on these forums. Cheers on both.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I just threw up a little.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

B. Justin Shier said:


> ...well then...that looks fun...but maybe I'll just take that nap instead.
> 
> B.


Enjoy your nap. I'm going to enjoy some home-made, straight from the freezer, warm and gooey chocolate chip cookies. Then, I'm going to edit my latest ms for any puerility, just in case I need to add some more.


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## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Monique said:


> I just threw up a little.


Pity is the proper response.

"Man has no choice but to love. For when he does not, he finds his alternatives lie in loneliness, destruction, and despair."

Can we have Camille back now?

B.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

joanhallhovey said:


> I will mention a name but only because she is no longer with us. Virginia Wolfe's 'To the Lighthouse'. I tried to finish it a number of times without success. It's a slim little book, too. If I'd taken it as part of a university course I might have managed it.
> 
> Best, Joan


I love this book. It was so comforting to me when my mother died. Great example of how a book may speak wonderfully to one person, and not so much to another.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

Sean Sweeney said:


> I want a thread that has nothing but McAfee and Dalglish looking like Sean Connery wannabes, and Dalglish being wooed by Kermit. Can we have a thread like that


don't we already have that thread?


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## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm reminded that posters here do not have an eye for subtlety, despite their profession. I better clarify. To me, the video is relevant and humorous because it is happening entirely in the teller's mind and it warps everything that is said. There is no reason to get worked up into a frenzy, and leaving the board over something like this thread? From MikeAngel?

Life is too short to constantly be upset on the internet. Critiques and arguments on the internet are less vicious if you can approach things with an ounce of levity. One star reviews are easier to handle if you approach your life and career with a sense of humor. David Fears is a self-professed student of Mark Twain. He has literally written volumes about him. If you aren't familiar with Sam Clemens, then you probably will not understand what is going on here. Twain was a writer and an absolutely brutally honest critic. When I see a post by MikeAngel, I prepare myself for what is coming and what he is attempting to do.

And I'm convinced it's almost entirely an act.

3,000 views on this thread? We're suckers. And we keep clicking. That's why I say kudos on the character. Not all characters are supposed to be loved.


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## PJJones (Apr 5, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> And for those of you who missed the humor in my original post, I feel so very sorry for you. Without humor life is like those dullest of turkeys who keel over at every whistle.


What? Gobble. Did anyone get what Mike was trying to say here? Gobble. I sure didn't. Gobble. Gobble.


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## Herc- The Reluctant Geek (Feb 10, 2010)

We come to these boards to discuss writing and all associated with it, and the great thing about this place is that it is totally democratic in that established writers rub shoulders with complete noobs, which is a fantastic example of what is good about digital communication.

It's easy to create flame wars on the nets. What isn't so easy is find a place where the flame wars are outnumbered by real posts, and where the real people outnumber the sock puppets.

If I wanted to get into a flame war, I'd go to the WoW boards. So my question to the OP is,  what, precisely, have you proved with your two posts? That people get defensive when provoked? Gosh your clever. +1 for research methodology.


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## JChris (Jul 18, 2011)

Kathleen Valentine said:


> This is always a painful subject because on the one hand, I've tried to read books advertised here that I thought were crap, but on the other hand some of those books are selling a whole lot better than mine are.


That irks me too, but kudos to anyone who finds a market. By the way, I think your review policy seems quite fair.

Also, it sounds like some of you are taking this conversation to another level.  Maybe we should change the subject. What's the shortest (pages) ebook you've ever downloaded?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi, folks!

We've decided that this discussion is going in circles and is been off the original topic for quite awhile...and since the OP, David (MikeAngel), hasn't been active in the thread, we're going to lock it so we can all get on with our lives.  And just a reminder, "troll" is a four letter word here on KindleBoards.  Posts referring to members here as trolls will be edited or removed.

Thanks!

Ann & Betsy
KB Moderators


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