# A Word about Typos



## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm not sure if any of you ever use dialect or colloquial speech in your writing, but that's periodically (not always) a literary device that I take advantage of.  And yet, because of this, I've received occasional comments about "typos" and "grammatical errors" in my work, as if I were simply being careless.  They aren't typos, and such "errors" as there may be are quite deliberate.  They all occur in characters' speech, never in in the non-speech text.

My question is, has anyone else ever dealt with this issue, and if so how did you address it?  Would it be worthwhile to add a disclaimer at the beginning, as Mark Twain did, explaining why the alternate words/spellings are used?

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Don't feel badly. I received a review once from a sight challenged reviewer who uses voice recognition for the read - and when he hit a part of my work, a letter written by an illiterate street kid from Brooklyn to his folks, he took me to task for grammar and typos (I don't know how he saw the typos) and mallapropisms (which were, of course, deliberate in the letter). It was like faulting Archie Bunker or Leo Gorcey (who's he? I'm anold fart remember). We just need to recognize the fact that some reviewers (and this wasn't a reader review, it was an editorial review) arm themselves for bear and the silver spike and hammer. Of course, I usually just laugh these things off, except in this case, where the gentleman blamed my editor. Now, I'm not worth a plug nickel in defending my works. Never have and never will do it.  However, when it comes to casting a shadow over my hard working editor who works with a passion and for little else, I would't stand for it. I risked losing all my five star reviews with that particular reviewing house and went to war until the reviewer pulled the note out blaming my editor. The rest I let stand as the foibles of the computer voice age. Have an opinion about me — fine. But say one word against my editor and I'll risk the house for the mortgage.

Edward C. Patterson
Once known as the Typo-Queen, but now have been demoted to Typo-Baroness and heading for Typo-commoner, thank God. Who was that guy that said something about casting the first rock?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> I'm not sure if any of you ever use dialect or colloquial speech in your writing, but that's periodically (not always) a literary device that I take advantage of. And yet, because of this, I've received occasional comments about "typos" and "grammatical errors" in my work, as if I were simply being careless. They aren't typos, and such "errors" as there may be are quite deliberate. They all occur in characters' speech, never in in the non-speech text.
> 
> My question is, has anyone else ever dealt with this issue, and if so how did you address it? Would it be worthwhile to add a disclaimer at the beginning, as Mark Twain did, explaining why the alternate words/spellings are used?
> 
> Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.


I have caught a lot of flack about this too. And my book (as yours) has deliberate misspellings in the "Quoted" conversations. However, there is nothing we can do about it... Remember that we cannot control who reads our work, and everyone who does is not necessarily able to determine that we intentionally have a character use "slang" or even "words that don't exist in the English language.

I had a woman in NC leave me a 1-star review claiming such errors.

MY ADVICE: Don't sweat it. You know what they say - "Bad Publicity is Good Publicity". My sales went up 15x what they were before she left all the "Bad Publicity".


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

As this conversation spreads from thread to thread like a virus. I exit. I am a professional.

Ed Patterson


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Does have a way of closing out threads.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Say "Bye, bye, now".  "Bye, bye, now".


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

<moderator mode on>

Folks, please: as we have requested before: What happens on the forums on the Amazon site stays there.

Thank you.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree that pointing out editorial and proofreading mistakes is a perfectly valid point to make in a review. . . there are books I've read that were dreadful in that respect, and that needs to be mentioned and hopefully corrected.  

But that really wasn't what I was talking about.  What I was discussing was the specific, limited situation when people mistake deliberate deviations for careless errors, and what, if anything, could be done to help the situation.  That's why I asked about whether it might be worthwhile to include a disclaimer or a note on language or something of that kind.  I was looking for a way to help readers avoid misunderstanding, not carping about a review I didn't like.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> I agree that pointing out editorial and proofreading mistakes is a perfectly valid point to make in a review. . . there are books I've read that were dreadful in that respect, and that needs to be mentioned and hopefully corrected.


In all seriousness, I have all sorts of deliberate mispellings for fun, for effect and for accents and I never make disclaimers. I have mentioned them here from time to time, but I don't believe a formal disclaimer is necessary as I continue to sell books with little or no mention of them. I have my fair share of actual typos which I try very hard to correct everywhere I find them. It seems they are endless.  But perseverance will get you everywhere. I say, don't make a disclaimer. The readers are generally intelligent enough to know what you are doing and can tell the difference between good writing and accidents.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> I agree that pointing out editorial and proofreading mistakes is a perfectly valid point to make in a review. . . there are books I've read that were dreadful in that respect, and that needs to be mentioned and hopefully corrected.
> 
> But that really wasn't what I was talking about. What I was discussing was the specific, limited situation when people mistake deliberate deviations for careless errors, and what, if anything, could be done to help the situation. That's why I asked about whether it might be worthwhile to include a disclaimer or a note on language or something of that kind. I was looking for a way to help readers avoid misunderstanding, not carping about a review I didn't like.


Sorry, Blue....I got distracted.

My answer to your question is "No."

The reason is that if a reader doesn't understand the difference, putting a 'warning' in there will not make them understand.

I read your book, and I am a stickler for good grammar, spelling, etc., so I can honestly say that your writing speaks for itself.


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## Meredith Sinclair (May 21, 2009)

Brendan Carroll said:


> In all seriousness, I have all sorts of deliberate misspellings for fun, for effect and for accents and I never make disclaimers. I have mentioned them here from time to time, but I don't believe a formal disclaimer is necessary as I continue to sell books with little or no mention of them. I have my fair share of actual typos which I try very hard to correct everywhere I find them. It seems they are endless.  But perseverance will get you everywhere. I say, don't make a disclaimer. The readers are generally intelligent enough to know what you are doing and can tell the difference between good writing and accidents.


Buuuut, Mr. Carroll, your misspelled words are your characters "in character" Scottish brogue, Italian and Irishman's way of speaking NOT really misspelled words ... and if you say typos are endless, I don't think they are in YOUR books, as I have read the first 11 of the series, and several other works of yours and there are very few that I could mention in the gazillion words I have read of your works. Yours are for emphasis... to let us know how these guys/gals/creatures talk... I believe the other posts refer to bad grammar and real spelling errors... not what you have going on in your books AT ALL.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

Brendan and Red, after thinking about it I'm sure you're both correct.  So I think I'll just let it slide and ignore comments like that unless I'm specifically asked.

Thanks for the feedback; y'all always have something useful and constructive to say.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

RedAdept said:


> My answer to your question is "No."
> 
> The reason is that if a reader doesn't understand the difference, putting a 'warning' in there will not make them understand.
> 
> I read your book, and I am a stickler for good grammar, spelling, etc., so I can honestly say that your writing speaks for itself.


I think this is right. If readers are generally not 'getting' that you're using dialect or misspellings for some particular effect, well, then you're not achieving your goal. You shouldn't have to tell them why you're using a certain style. Of course, some readers might just be thick, but if pretty much no one gets what you're doing, it's not working and you should re-think the strategy.


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

I have a difficulty in reading stuff written in "dialect" or written so that it would sound like someone's accent if read aloud, but I've never considered them typos.  However, I could understand some people who don't think aurally, or on the other hand use the TTS feature, might think they were mistakes.  My advice re: reviews is to remember that they are just one person's opinion and try not to take them too hard.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

I think any good author knows that he has his/her own story to tell and has to adhere to their own personal taste in telling their stories. At the same time, the goal is to use language well (this means adhering to the rules of grammar and spelling unless there is a worthy reason for deviation). When an author is true to his/her vision, there will be people who cannot comprehend this vision. So be it. Style and substance are not always the same thing. At the same time, this is not an excuse to cut corners and avoid using the established forms of our language to tell good stories.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm old fashioned (anachronistic even), but I believe an author must engage the reader. If being true to one's style, vernacular or artisitic innovation disengages the reader (and I don't mean some critic a la Starry Vere), then a novel becomes a one-way street. I beleive it tkes two to tango when it comes to a novel, and I am only half of the the equation.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Tippy (Dec 8, 2008)

wath?


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Y'know, Blue, you're right. Most people don't speak with perfect grammar, and it would be unrealistic to expect that all dialogue be written in perfect form. Dialect gives the reader further immersion in the scene--it helps the reader 'hear' the voice of the character. However, I agree with Kevis concerning the importance of proper mechanics in non-dialogue portions of a manuscript. I also agree with Ed--if the dialect is distracting, or if peculiarities of 'style' interfere with the reader's ability to enjoy the story, then both are a liability.  

I dislike dialect unless it is done sparingly and well. It interrupts the flow if heavy-handed. I find inept mechanics (grammar, punctuation, spelling, and so on) distracting in the extreme and will not read a poorly-edited manuscript to completion. 

Typos, REAL typos (such as misplacing or duplicating the occasional letter) are true typing errors and are particularly difficult to spot. They don't concern me if they are few and far between. There's a big difference between a few typos and failure to edit.


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I'm old fashioned (anachronistic even), but I believe an author must engage the reader. If being true to one's style, vernacular or artisitic innovation disengages the reader (and I don't mean some critic a la Starry Vere), then a novel becomes a one-way street. I beleive it tkes two to tango when it comes to a novel, and I am only half of the the equation.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


The two words 'information' and 'communication' are often used interchangeably, but they signify quite different things. Information is giving out; communication is getting through. 
Sydney J. Harris 
Effective conversation (communication) is a conversation in which no one gets confused by the other person's MEANING. When people (both the speaker or the listener) don't use proper communication skills, the other person can be unsure of the speaker's meaning. There can be many reasons for not understanding their meaning. The Kings Calendar

I think you could replace speaker and listener with writer and reader in the above quote. If the reader does not get the writer's meaning, communication does not occur. The writer is giving out information, but not communicating with the reader. So Ed, I agree with you all the way. If the reader is not engaged by the writer, then comminication (and good reading) do not happen.


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## Morpheus Phreak (May 6, 2009)

I'm a fan of the way that Asimov handled situations like this.

Here's a direct quote from Foundation,

_Lord Dorwin took snuff. He also had long hair, curled intricately and, quite obviously, artificially, to which were added a pair of fluffy, blond sideburns, which he fondled affectionately. Then, too, he spoke in an overprecise statements and left out all the r's._

This later sets up the characters way of speaking not much farther into the chapter. It makes it clear later that it's not a mistake when the character says, _"Ah, Hahdin. You ah looking foah us, no doubt,"_ or when he states, _"A gweat achievement, this Encyclopedia of yoahs, Hahdin. A feat, indeed, to rank with the most majestic accomplishments of all time."_

The only time he breaks out of that r's 'rule' is for the word rank...which has a fairly obvious explanation 

To me working it into the story as a short bit of expository works since it helps explain the character of the man, and not just as a pure setup for the language


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

lk. . .I think both you and the critique partner have points. I think it needs to be done carefully. Too much does make it awfully hard to read sometimes. Mind you, once you get into the rhythm, it gets easier. I had a Shakespeare course in college and reading the plays got easier and easier as the semester went on because we became so steeped in the language. But the average author hasn't got that much time. So you have to do it with care so that the reader gets what you're doing and why, AND doesn't get frustrated and give up in the first few pages.

And, again, if there are a LOT of 'complaints' from normally discerning readers about bad grammar and spelling that you put there on purpose. . .well, your technique didn't work: readers obviously didn't _get_ it. So. . . . .maybe re-think it. Perhaps some exposition is needed.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

lkcampbell said:


> I was only referring to dialogue. I never (intentionally) use poor grammar in narration/exposition. I'm from the old school on that score. It even took me a while to get comfortable using contractions in narration. LOL!
> If you'll indulge me, here's an example from one of my books. Keep in mind that it takes place in 1945 in the south:


Your example is exactly on the money. Sounds natural and rolls off the page like real dialogue. It would sound extremely stiff and unappealing if your characters spoke dialogue to each other that sounded robotic. Even in true life experiences, if I am around anyone who tries to speak perfect English/precise diction, I become extremely quiet and wonder what the


Spoiler



devil


 is wrong with them because I stop listening to_ what _ they are saying and automatically concentrate on_ how _ they are saying it. Of course, the same can hold true for exotic accents. I have been fascinated by the immense diversity of accents in the English language since I was a child and am constantly trying to guess where people are from based on their accents. I'm pretty good at guessing, so I suppose that language and the speaking thereof is more of a fun thing to me and I try to incorporate it into the dialogue in my books. If the readers do not enjoy such a thing, then I must apologize and move on and hope that they get something more from my stories than just an earful of Scottish brogue, but on the whole, books attract interest from various tastes and I have received many more compliments than complaints wherein the reader tells me that they enjoy the diversion because it lends to the develomopment of some of my more colorful characters. Another thing to keep in mind is that most readers read for enjoyment and are not authors themselves nor or they professional book reviewers or critics. The bottom line is I LOVE MY READERS and I want to please them. If they have complaints, I want to fix them.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

lkcampbell said:


> I was only referring to dialogue. I never (intentionally) use poor grammar in narration/exposition. I'm from the old school on that score. It even took me a while to get comfortable using contractions in narration. LOL!


I'd have to agree there. . . .I admit I'm hard pressed to think of why, in a modern book, you'd want to intentionally use poor grammar or spelling in narrative. If someone is doing that on purpose for some sort of effect, I would STRONGLY suggest a re-thinking!

To go back to the OP, I think that was the question in the first place: do readers have a problem with using 'everyday not perfect English' language in dialog. I still think it probably depends on how much. . .lk, you're excerpt above is fine as far as I am concerned (though I am Nobody.  ). It speaks to who the character is, and clearly differentiates the two women in the conversation. It does get harder if all the characters speak that way. But, at bottom, if the narrative is well written and the story is a good one, it's not going to be a huge problem for most people.

My opinion only, of course.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

intinst said:


> Does have a way of closing out threads.


Is that a "Pawley's Island" Hammock?


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> I agree that pointing out editorial and proofreading mistakes is a perfectly valid point to make in a review. . . there are books I've read that were dreadful in that respect, and that needs to be mentioned and hopefully corrected.
> 
> But that really wasn't what I was talking about. What I was discussing was the specific, limited situation when people mistake deliberate deviations for careless errors, and what, if anything, could be done to help the situation. That's why I asked about whether it might be worthwhile to include a disclaimer or a note on language or something of that kind. I was looking for a way to help readers avoid misunderstanding, not carping about a review I didn't like.


I was referring to the review because it specifically mentions "typos" and "improper use of words". I was only using it as a reference point on your topic - to say that I have experienced the same thing. The most important part of my point was the end... "Bad Publicity is Good Publicity". My sales have proved it.

*** I will say, though, that I did go back and edit the book further for some small errors such as a missing letter and such ("a" instead of "at" - etc...). Something my editor should have caught when transcribing the book from my original "handwritten" copy.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

Deliberately misspelling a word in dialogue should only be done if it actually changes the pronunciation of the word. I've read some horrific dialogue where the author deliberately misspelled words as the speaker would have _written _ them, but not how they would have been spoken. It's embarassing as someone with family from the deep South to read an author butcher the English language in an effort to "create" a Southern accent.

Another reason why readers might notice so-called spelling errors in your dialogue is if the speaker's speech pattern overall doesn't mesh with the revised spelling of the word. For example:

"Jethro, git yer ma a glass of wader."

versus

"Jethro, would you please git yer ma a glass of wader."

One is a regional dialect. The other looks like your fingers were on crack while typing. Just adding the more formal "would you please" to the sentence changes the feel and makes the spelling appear obviously wrong.

If one person is pointing out typos, he or she might just be a grammar nazi. If a lot of readers are picking up typos, then you aren't setting up the dialogue properly to ensure they understand what they are reading.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

bardsandsages said:


> If one person is pointing out typos, he or she might just be a grammar nazi. If a lot of readers are picking up typos, then you aren't setting up the dialogue properly to ensure they understand what they are reading.


Hey! I like that "Grammar Nazi"!  Kind of like: "You vill spell ze vord right, or you vill not spell ze vord at all, mein freund!" Ja! Ja! I see. Thanks. Now, tell me, please: Did gran'maw ever git her drank uv water er not?


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Dialect can add a pleasant touch of tang, and is useful for defining the 'outsiders' in a story--those who stand apart from the story's world either by karma or by choice. One of my readers' favorite characters is the wysardess Markessa of Lanas Crin, who appears briefly in _Lord Brother_; she lives by the sea in the northlands, and her manner of speaking combines Elizabethan phrasing with a hint of pirate:

Confused, the wysard blinked against the tormenting salt of the air. "Who-or what-are you?"

The sea-being brandished its staff and glared. "That's naught to thee. But for thy enlightenment, which thou sorely seem'st to require, I'm the Markessa of Lanas Crin, and thou standest upon my land, where robbers get a whip's welcome."

"I'm not a thief. But I'm very sick, Markessa."

The sea-green eyes brightened in interest. "Art thou now. How sick?"

Ryel pushed back his salt-dripping hair with trembling fingers. "To the death, I think."

She wasn't in the least impressed. "Bah. Thou'rt a tall strong fellow, likely to live. Come, we'll get some good eatables into thee, and put thee into a clean bed- for neither hot broth nor white sheets hast thou known for many a day, it seems-and see how thou dost afterward. That's a notable horse thou hast-we'll ride together, thou and I."
***

Thank the witches in _MacBeth_, I suppose.  I'm always surprised that people don't object to another of my characters, the malignant spirit Pukk, whose fragmented syntax has to be deciphered:

"Why has Dagar not taken you?"

Pukk guttered under the insult. "Iamstr ong. Stron gestof myk ind. Nottobe take nuntilall elseistaken."

Ryel felt his heart beating too fast, and could not calm it. "And what if all else is taken? What comes after?"

The purple eyes blazed. "Itwill havey ou. As itss _lave_." In that last sneering syllable Pukk began to fade.

***

The upshot: one has to know the rules in order to break them. I don't mind a bit of bending, in the right hands.

CK


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Dialog can follow any course it wants as long as it is consistant to your own style rules. I generally use subtle slang, but when imparting a Southern drawl, I'll state that " he said, with a slight drawl." Then I use normal spelling, but perhaps a slight shift in word order, and a careful selection words to intimate the Southern accent. Once it's in the reader's imagination, it needn't be in the reader's eye or throw the reader out of the story. I mean I refuse to use justified text in my published works to make reading easier for my readers. I certainly wouldn't give them a mine field to read and expect them to stay the course.

Foreign languages is another thing that needs control in dialog. I use Chinese, Swedish, Cherokee, Italian, German and a host of other foreign words in dialog, but they need to be used with a personal style rule. In my case, the meaning of the word chosen can be guessed (if not be explicit) by its position in the sentence and also the choice of the word is made obvious. Sometime I'll use an entire phrase that another character needs to translate. This bonds charcters at times, but must be used gingerly as it can also tire a reader out. Also the foreign words should only be used when the conversation includes English speakers, to highlight the foreign language. When the same two characters are together in a scene, without English spoken, PURE English is used. The reader might ask, "wouldn't those guys be speaking Chinese?" Why yes, but you wouldn't understand them. It's much like Sean Astin's question to the lighting experts on Lord of the Rings. "Where is that light coming from?" The lighting director turned to the smart-ass know-it-all actor and said: "It comes from the same place as the music."

Edward C. Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Shakespeare generally wrote in verse (iambic pentameter) if it was a nobleman speaking, but in something more prosaic. . .usually completely unrhymed and unmetered. . .dare I say "prose" . . . when it was commoners speaking.  So, it's a tried and true technique to use different speech styles to differentiate different groups of people.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Shakespeare generally wrote in verse (iambic pentameter) if it was a nobleman speaking, but in something more prosaic. . .usually completely unrhymed and unmetered. . .dare I say "prose" . . . when it was commoners speaking. So, it's a tried and true technique to use different speech styles to differentiate different groups of people.


The noble iambics tend to break down when the material becomes less lofty. Hamlet in his feigned madness is bawdily colloquial--which comes as a shock, as Shakespeare knew it would. A century later, Doctor Johnson was not amused:

"In his comick scenes he is seldom very successful, when he engages his characters in reciprocations of smartness and contests of sarcasm; their jests are commonly gross, and their pleasantry licentious; neither his gentlemen nor his ladies have much delicacy, nor are sufficiently distinguished from his clowns by any appearance of refined manners. Whether he represented the real conversation of his time is not easy to determine; the reign of Elizabeth is commonly supposed to have been a time of stateliness, formality and reserve; yet perhaps the relaxations of that severity were not very elegant. There must, however, have been always some modes of gayety preferable to others, and a writer ought to chuse the best." ~Samuel Johnson's _Preface to Shakespeare_

CK


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## Elmore Hammes (Jun 23, 2009)

The 1922 text of James Joyce's _Ulysses_ has a note from the publisher preceding the text body:


> The publisher asks the reader's indulgence for typographical errors unavoidable in the exceptional circumstances.


I knew I was in for a challenging read when I saw that!

Most of us shouldn't need a note to point out what really are typical - and certainly acceptable - circumstances of having a few words deliberately modified within character's speech or thoughts. I wouldn't let a reviewer who didn't understand that bother me, and generally trying to defend an erroneous comment turns into a flame war which is hard for an author to win, regardless of right or wrong. I'd let the comment stand and hope that readers who understood the usage better would choose to defend it for me.


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Carolyn Kephart said:


> There must, however, have been always some modes of gayety preferable to others, and a writer ought to chuse the best." ~Samuel Johnson's _Preface to Shakespeare_
> CK


Believe it or not, I am a great fan of Shakespearean comedies. I love rhyme and bawdiness in all forms. If ever I could work up the courage and the time, I might try my hand at an imitative work, just for fun. I did write a novel in the style of Henry Fielding's _Tom Jones_ and someday I plan to put it out there and see what the readers say. But OT: Once again, I think it all comes down to the style of the author and the preference of the readers.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

I definitely agree that excessive departure from standard English is annoying and difficult to read. I myself am a passionate defender of good grammar and correct spelling. I've always used dialect sparingly (I can't even bring myself to use Aint, lol).

Typically, I'll use such things as leavin' instead of leaving, 'bout for about, or gonna for going to, and I'll occasionally use Southernisms such as y'all or yonder or reckon. Sometimes a colorful metaphor which I know is very regional. And that's about it. Nothing which is difficult to understand or so thick as to be annoying or distracting. It's just there to add some mild flavor and realism. When your main character is a 12 year old boy from Tennessee, and the story is being told in first-person, those are the kinds of usages that should be expected (one would think). Here's an example:

_"And what would make you think that, young feller?" he finally asked.

"Cause I know you have a sister named Jenna in Tennessee, and I'm her son. She gave me this," I said. I fumbled in my pocket for that old picture of Justin I took from Mama's photo album, and offered it to him. He took it without thinking, and I could tell he recognized it. He looked back at me again, and this time his face was impossible to read. He still didn't look pleased, but I couldn't have told you what he was thinking to save my life.

"Where's Jenna then? Why are y'all here?" he demanded. He was starting to scowl for real now, and I knew I better say something quick._

That's as thick as it ever gets. Most of the time not even that much, so I don't believe it interferes with understanding. It's just a bit colloquial. And honestly I've received very few complaints. . . just a handful.

I might add, I don't use this sort of thing all the time. The excerpt above was from Cry for the Moon, which has a mild Southern flavor. Some of my short stories do too, but not all, and my other novel contains not a trace of anything but the Queen's English, lol.


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## sierra09 (Jun 20, 2009)

I've been following this thread since it started with a lot of interest and have certainly picked up one of three things I never would have thought of.

Normally when I write, I write (or type as it were) as I think and usually don't use much in the way of dialect or that type of thing because it honestly never looked right when I wrote it. I mean, I have a Southern character I use a lot in my writing but when I type his words it doesn't usually sound like he's from the South really unless it's a simple word or so. I also only used foreign languages when I totally had to in a scene. Not only because I didn't want to confuse readers (even though I always put the translation) I didn't want to confuse me.

Now, in the series I'm working on now, I've used a bit more dialect since I wanted to let the Irish come through and I used actual Irish words in the book but always made sure to have the translation most times. Though never a full sentence. I do use cause instead of because more than I should but that's a lesson I'm learning to break.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

sierra09 said:


> I've been following this thread since it started with a lot of interest and have certainly picked up one of three things I never would have thought of.
> 
> Normally when I write, I write (or type as it were) as I think and usually don't use much in the way of dialect or that type of thing because it honestly never looked right when I wrote it. I mean, I have a Southern character I use a lot in my writing but when I type his words it doesn't usually sound like he's from the South really unless it's a simple word or so. I also only used foreign languages when I totally had to in a scene. Not only because I didn't want to confuse readers (even though I always put the translation) I didn't want to confuse me.
> 
> Now, in the series I'm working on now, I've used a bit more dialect since I wanted to let the Irish come through and I used actual Irish words in the book but always made sure to have the translation most times. Though never a full sentence. I do use cause instead of because more than I should but that's a lesson I'm learning to break.


Writing dialect can present a challenge to authors. But writing dialogue in a completely different language is quite difficult too. I am currently writing a book that features characters who speak Japanese. I'm working very hard to make sure that the transition bettween English and Japanese dialogue is as natural as it can be. Fortunately, there are several authors such as Eric Lustbader who handles bilingual dialogue quite seamlessly. I am using Lustbader's work as a primer even though I am putting my own spin on things. It should be interesting to see how readers react to my book when some of the dialogue is as far from standard English as can be.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Here is an issue I have seen in some novels, and before I put it in a review as 'incorrect', I wanted confirmation:

He past the house on the left. {To me, this should be 'passed'}

He past a group of people in the hall. {Again: 'passed'}

Am I correct or is either way correct or what?


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

Good point, Kevis. I sometimes use a little bit of French, especially in my poetry. Most of the words I'm careful to use in such a context that the reader can guess what they mean without having to look them up in a dictionary. Things like this:

The boulders sit in tumbled blocks of gray,
Caressed and clothed in gowns of green so pale;
The falls below are quiet. . . dry today;
A sweet, sweet silence fills the winding vale.

_Belle chère,_ your love is here with me, so nigh,
I feel it always, warm as sun on stone
In late October. Golden Fall may sigh
Soft whispers, here, to one who sits alone.

As I have done so often, wrapped in love
So dear, and while the light plays fleetingly,
Its chiral melody, the wind above
Doth seem to sing sweet madrigals of thee.

Ah, love is brief, and softly sadsome, too. . .
So small a thing, my love, I give to you.

In this case it's fairly obvious that _belle chère_ is a term of affection, even if the reader may not be completely sure what it means. I don't always include a translation of things like that where the meaning is "guessable", but if I'm writing something longer or more obscure then I always do.


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

Red, you're correct.  It should be "passed" and not "past".


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

"Passed" and "past." I have trouble with those two. What other words do people have trouble with?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Passed/past is the worst. I never get them right and leave it to my editor to correct them. If she misses one, crucify me on the cross of past participles.   There is also peak/peek/pique and seam/seem and, palette/palate/pallet. Pail/pale, draw/drawer, loop/loupe. There are hundreds of these that trip us up. The passed/past thing is so beyond me (I actually had one critic send me an email to correct them - and I did so, only to find out that I corrected them so they were wrong because the critic didn't know their ash from their macaroni). I had to go back and reissue them. My editor is the only person on the planet permitted to correct my passed/pasts. I actually get them correct sometimes. BUT WHEN IN DOUBT - use beyond. And heaven to Murgatroyd, how about passerbys and passersby. 

Edward C. Patterson

PS: Beware of lightening/lightning and the evil judgement'judgment


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

A couple of people have mentioned the use of foreign language in their writing of dialogue.  

Everyone here seems to agree that regional accents or a particular type of slang can work only when they're natural and accurate, but somehow that accuracy is seen as less important when it's a foreign language.  There are probably more readers who'd recognize a phony or flawed Southern/Maine/Boston/whatever accent than would recognize faulty French or German or Italian, but for those who do speak the foreign language, a sentence that's been cobbled together with a dictionary by a non-native speaker can be appalling.  At the very least it spoils the effect of that scene, and if there are many such sentences in the book, it can ruin a good read entirely.  

My pet peeve as a translator, perhaps, but I can't be the only one who has been annoyed by this.  

If you're going to use foreign phrases and sentences, please take the time to get them right...  get a native speaker to check them...  NOT someone who's had maybe two years of the language in school.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> Good point, Kevis. I sometimes use a little bit of French, especially in my poetry. Most of the words I'm careful to use in such a context that the reader can guess what they mean without having to look them up in a dictionary. Things like this:
> 
> The boulders sit in tumbled blocks of gray,
> Caressed and clothed in gowns of green so pale;
> ...


William,

I don't care if anyone thinks negatively of me for saying it, but I was exposed to your kind of poetry reading X-men comic books as a teenager. There is an X-men character named Gambit. He is a Cajun who constantly slips into French as he speaks. I was always trying to figure out what he meant when he used words like "Mon Ami" and "Chere". But that was the brilliance of it all. I love reading authors who fearlessly play with language. You should be proud of yourself for carrying on this wonderful tradition!


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Council/counsel!


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## Tanner Artesz (Feb 2, 2009)

Capitol/capital.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> If you're going to use foreign phrases and sentences, please take the time to get them right... get a native speaker to check them... NOT someone who's had maybe two years of the language in school.


I'm 110% in agreement with Susan on this. Mind you. . .I'm not a linguist. I can piece together the meaning of some simple Spanish, French or Latin, and, realistically, _I_ probably can't tell the difference. But I still think if you're going to use a foreign language in more than just the endearing phrase here and there. . .Get It Right. It's a bit like the old "ugly American" attitude of assuming everyone speaks English and if you don't understand me I'll just talk louder at you like you're deaf. Don't assume that you won't have readers who DO speak the foreign language: they'll be insulted if you haven't used their language well and it will reflect badly on you as an author.

<inhale><exhale> o.k. I'll get off the soapbox now.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Guest and Guessed.   

Don't laugh - I've done it.

Ed P


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

It's a good thing I'm fluid/fluent in 7 languages.


Spoiler



Ed stop bragging.


 And glad 2 of those are Mandarin and Cherokee. Now Mandarin is general transliterated, so its always incorrect in romanization. And there are only 100,000 people who still speak Cherokee. Of course, I am also fluid in gossip and GaySpeak, a distinct advantage when match handbags to shoes. I'm a little light in the Swedish department, so I relied in The Jade Owl on family members.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Ed,

Please don't be offended, but I have a question. Speaking of 'gay speak', there was a term in 'Bobby's Trace' that I am unfamiliar with: "beard". I think he said something about a woman not being a good 'beard'.

Since he next said that it was because she was happily married, I took it to mean a good 'cover'. Is that correct?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

In GaySpeak, a "beard" is a gay friendly woman who accompanies gay men on ocassions when a "woman" is required. When  a gay man is in the closet, she is essential for weddings. The beard is usually a straight woman, but lesbians sometimes volunteer. My own beard was a ravishing red head who walked into a room and had ever male hormone in trot. She always enjoyed herself, and since she attracted only the upper shelf male, I got my eye candy also. "Bears" are an essential for many Gay male movie stars. In the old days, the studio arranged such matches for the red carpet — even effecting PR marraiged between gay and lesbian stars, like Barbara Stanwyck and Robert Taylor.

Edward C. Patterson


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## William Woodall (Jun 8, 2009)

Kevis Hendrickson said:


> William,
> 
> I don't care if anyone thinks negatively of me for saying it, but I was exposed to your kind of poetry reading X-men comic books as a teenager. There is an X-men character named Gambit. He is a Cajun who constantly slips into French as he speaks. I was always trying to figure out what he meant when he used words like "Mon Ami" and "Chere". But that was the brilliance of it all. I love reading authors who fearlessly play with language. You should be proud of yourself for carrying on this wonderful tradition!


Kevis, that's hilarious. I never would have thought about comparing myself to the X-Men, but it's very flattering. _Merci, mon ami!_

I agree with the need to make certain that foreign languages are used correctly. Nothing is more dreadful than to read something cobbled together from a dictionary, although in some cases when people accidentally say something they didn't intend, it can be roll-on-the-floor funny. Like the word "vache", which literally means "cow", but in certain contexts can also mean "b*tch". I had a friend who visited France and who was at the time somewhat overweight and trying to diet. She thought she was being self-deprecating when she told a waiter that she'd like dessert but she didn't want to look like a cow. She never understood why everyone thought it was so hilarious until I explained it to her. lol Idioms like that will get you in trouble if you don't watch it.


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## Archer (Apr 25, 2009)

Ed:
'Bears?'
Speaking of typos...heheheheh!


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Now "Bears" in GaySpeak are husky, hairy men - sometimes in leather.   I don;t see many stars needing them.

Ed P


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

bluearkansascowboy said:


> Idioms like that will get you in trouble if you don't watch it.


LOL as this reminds me of one of my own most embarrassing language faux pax ever....

In my 20's I had a two-year


Spoiler



fling


with a gentleman in Venice. I spoke no Italian at the time, and he spoke very little English -- we had met in Spain while we were both studying Spanish and communicated in very flawed Spanish. 

Of course I heard him talk to his friends in Italian, and I could understand enough to know when it was conversational and when he was swearing up and down over some minor annoyance, as many Italians tend to do.

So one evening I accompany him to some political fundraiser function, and there are about a dozen men in the room, and me. He carries on about some political topic, and curses freely as usual, and one of the older men in the room looks at me and says something to my friend about watching his language in my presence. My friend laughs and says that I don't understand that term anyway. Indignantly, because I _did_ understand at least _some _of the conversation (close enough to Spanish for me to catch key words), I sputter and say (in Spanish, which unfortunately all the Italians present understand) "of course I understand, you use that all the time!"

A moment of stunned silence, and then the room erupts in laughter, and some of the guys have tears running down their faces. Turns out the swear word in question was the term for a


Spoiler



p*nis


.

Unfortunately it was still early in a v e r y long meeting evening.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Better a v e r y long


Spoiler



xxxxx made you look


, that a v e r y long meeting. Susan, you're gonna love


Spoiler



The Dragon's Pool


, if you haven't gotten there yet and the Tosti-Tostacaronis. I am fluent in _Eye_talian (the price of studying to be an Opera singer). However, it's funny how one can mistranslate things. One could say, with Italian I am _influenza_. 

Edward C. Patterson

BTW, I once had an Argentinian say to me - Excuse me, may I molest you? Talk about mistranslations!


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

> It's a good thing I'm fluid/fluent in 7 languages


I get myself into enough trouble being semi-fluent in one language. There isn't enough room in my mouth for all the feet I'd be sticking into it if I was fluent in SEVEN.

Susan, that's quite possibly the funniest anecdote I've read on this board.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I once had an Argentinian say to me - Excuse me, may I molest you?


Well, was he cute?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

In the words of W. S. Gilbert:

"In the dark with the light behind him."

Ed P
"Distance is his friend"
- Robert Sprague "Sprakie",


Spoiler



Turning Idolater


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> Susan, that's quite possibly the funniest anecdote I've read on this board.


Well thank you, but I think you haven't read enough others yet! Scattered around KB there are some great stories... there's even a "Funny" thread buried somewhere in NQK. Somebody should revive it.


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I love that this thread took a little deviation into speaking Gay.  We do have a definite dialect and slang ..... as an aside, I wouldn't recommend going too far into our slang without an escape route as we have just too many words to keep track:  circuitboy, twinkie, gymbunny, lipstick, grandma, etc. ....



Now, back to the older topic on hand since I'm joining this conversation already in progress ...

As a reader (and I mentioned this elsewhere)  I enjoy a novel written in slang or a dialect when its an intrinsic part of the the narrator's voice.  In dialogue, I also enjoy accents when they are well done.  Harry Turtledove seems to do this quite well and has a knack at keeping multiple accents running at a time - which not everyone can do.

What annoys me, though, is when it's not done well.  When a Russian intellectual ends up sounding like Boris and Natasha or a southerner sounds like Gomer Pyle.  I think its all a matter of degree and a matter of ability.  When writing a review, I would never knock an author for poor grammar due to the use of an accent.   I would, however, mention it if the accent is just god-awful.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

A note I'd like to add about foreign words and phrases.

Just because a character is from France, does not mean you need to pepper their dialogue with random French words and phrases. Most folks I have met from outside the U.S. do not randomly drop native words into their English sentences. In fact, they tend to pride themselves on their ability to speak English (often more fluently than some Americans I know!). I cringe when I read dialogue that jumps between English and another language just to accentuate that a character is a foreigner. Even if it is grammatically correct, it is unneccessary and often unnatural.

The one exception to this: second generation Hispanics, particularly young people. Many of them have the exceptional ability of starting a sentence in one language and finishing it in another. It's as if they are processing data in both languages simultaneously, and they naturally jump back and forth between English and Spanish. I love just _listening_ to them, even if I can't follow the entire conversation, because it fascinates me that their brains can process language like that.  I spend a lot of time listening to how people talk, and I have the good fortune of living in the Philadelphia region, home to plenty of different nationalities and regional dialects.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Foreign languages and phrases are best used to show the foreignness of the English speakers, and that's how I use them in most cases. An American wife now the mistress of an Italian villa or Americans adrift in Bei-jing. The most important thing is to regard the language and the phrases with the same rhythmic application as the English words, and with the same respect and, impact. For example, I use the Mandarin word for "C'mon' or enter (Ch'u-lai) often, and often enough that it becomes as ubiquitous as Stephen King's "thankee sai." Without these touches, we might as well be reading the sheet of paper that comes with my drug prescriptions. (Yaaaaawn). We should never be so arrogant as to hold that our reader is not intelligent enough to pick up foreign phrases and even be elevated by them, or as condescending as to regard the foreign word as "foreign," unless the theme of our work is Xenophobia.

Edward C. Patterson


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

rjkeller said:


> I get myself into enough trouble being semi-fluent in one language. There isn't enough room in my mouth for all the feet I'd be sticking into it if I was fluent in SEVEN.


Something I read many years ago, probably in _Reader's Digest_, about languages:

Someone who speaks many languages is Multilingual.
Someone who speaks two languages is Bilingual.
Someone who speaks only one language is American.

At 57, I am trying to break that sad commentary by learning French. If that goes well, I'll try to add Spanish, But I am sure that is as far as this old brain will stretch.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I know a few words in German, from when I was in the Army.

At the moment, I am trying to teach myself Spanish. I understand far more than I can speak, though.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RedAdept: You were in the Army? Where in Germany? I was stationed in Germany in 1967-68. 

Sp 5 Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

yes, I was in the Army from 1986 to 1989. I did the 3 year enlistment thing under the GI Bill.

I wasn't born until 1969, so I don't think we ran into each other there.  

But, I was there from 1987 to 1990. I was stationed in Bad Kreuznach. My son was born there, too, in a German hospital in 1989, so he had duel citizenship until he turned 18.

A funny story:

When my husband called my mom to tell her my son was born, they spent 15 minutes arguing over my son's birthdate. It took them that long to remember the time difference.  

It was a family joke for years how my son has 2 birthdays.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RedAdept: I was stationed in Grafenwoehr. In fact, I have a novel, unpublished but coming in 2010 called


Spoiler



The Road to Grafenwoehr


, which is Jane Austen meets Steven Kind horror. I do have a military novel about gay men in basic training,


Spoiler



Surviving an American Gulag, published, and you'd love the Typos in that one. But hell, I only have one eye.


 

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> RedAdept: I was stationed in Grafenwoehr. In fact, I have a novel, unpublished but coming in 2010 called
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I give no quarter to one-eyed people. LOL

I had a boyfriend for awhile in high school who was blind. I would proofread his papers for him sometimes. I was not merciful. He, he

I just remembered: I know a little of another language...well, kinda, sorta...I learned Braille in high school, and he got me a slate and stylus, so we could pass notes in class.  I still remember some of it. Does that count towards being multilingual?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

No need for Braille now that we have Kindles.

Ed P


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> No need for Braille now that we have Kindles.
> 
> Ed P


But a braille kindle would be cool.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> But a braille kindle would be cool.


It wouldn't need a backlight, at least. ROFL


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I mean, with a Kindle, Braille's not needed. I often switch on the "text to voice" feature, close my well preserved eye and listen. of course, there are some funny things. You haven't lived until you've heard Captain's Courageous read on the Kindle voice, with all those Gloucester accents muddled into something not quite English and not quite anything.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Brenda Carroll (May 21, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Without these touches, we might as well be reading the sheet of paper that comes with my drug prescriptions. (Yaaaaawn). We should never be so arrogant as to hold that our reader is not intelligent enough to pick up foreign phrases and even be elevated by them, or as condescending as to regard the foreign word as "foreign," unless the theme of our work is Xenophobia.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


Oh, aye, very well said, Mr. Ed... I do so miss my limerick thread...LOL. You head the old nail on the proverbial head.


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## Frank_Tuttle (Jul 1, 2009)

One of my characters, Mama Hog, speaks entirely in a backwoods argot that I spend a lot of time crafting.  I even read it aloud to make sure it sounds *exactly* like the person Mama is modeled after.  The dialect is a local one that's vanishing, but it is authentic.  

I've never had a reviewer or anyone else object to quoted dialog.  I think everyone understands that this is speech, and that most people speak in the fashion of the region and their peers.

But there's no way I'd ever ask anyone to read an entire story, much less a novel, written in Hog-speak.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I mean, with a Kindle, Braille's not needed. I often switch on the "text to voice" feature, close my well preserved eye and listen. of course, there are some funny things. You haven't lived until you've heard Captain's Courageous read on the Kindle voice, with all those Gloucester accents muddled into something not quite English and not quite anything.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


I was showing off the text to speech to some friends at my music camp last week. . ..they said it sounded like Stephen Hawking reading to them. . . . .


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

beside/besides and toward/towards I never can get either.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I use only beside and toward and have banished besides and towards from my vocabulary. In this way, I am consistancy wrong half of the time, but that's beside the fact. There's also the use of OK, which is incorrect. It's okay. 

Edward C. Patterson


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## Dave Dykema (May 18, 2009)

Kindle's text to speech reads OK as Oklahoma, so I'm told.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

It's true. I had Ms. as a proper title and got Mississippi. Also back quoetes are read "Back Quotes." So 'nuff said, becomes Backquotesnuff.

Ed Patterson


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I got started reading the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon in Gertie's Book Klub, and I have to say that the author of that series uses dialect superbly.  The main character is an Englishwoman transplanted to the 18th century Scotland.  I can almost hear the voices.

Betsy


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Dave Dykema said:


> beside/besides and toward/towards I never can get either.


I have seen these confused a lot:

though/although
threw/through
principle/principal
etc. & i.e. are misused all the time
effect/affect


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## telracs (Jul 12, 2009)

my best friend commented on my incorrect use of then/than in my McCartney review and I told he that's one of my constant problems.


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## Carolyn Kephart (Feb 23, 2009)

Frank_Tuttle said:


> One of my characters, Mama Hog, speaks entirely in a backwoods argot that I spend a lot of time crafting. I even read it aloud to make sure it sounds *exactly* like the person Mama is modeled after. The dialect is a local one that's vanishing, but it is authentic.


I've read a bit of your writing, Frank, and do like what I've seen. I'll have to give Mama Hog a look! Some of my relatives live near the 'Hoi Toiders' of coastal North Carolina, who still talk like buccaneers from the time of Blackbeard; it's fascinating to hear, but dying out.

CK


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

allude/elude
partition/petition
lose/loose
chose/choose

This list goes on . . . down from the door where it begun.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

scarlet said:


> my best friend commented on my incorrect use of then/than in my McCartney review and I told he that's one of my constant problems.


Yep, I've seen that one.

Another prevalent problem is contractions:

it's vs. its is a really big one

Yet another I have seen: there vs. their

I recently read a book where every instance of a pronoun following a preposition, the wrong pronoun was used. This is a tough one for many, I think.

She went to the store with he and I. (wrong)

She went to the story with him and me. (correct)

John threw the ball to Dave and I. (wrong)

John threw the ball to Dave and me. (correct)


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

There is still a question, however, on how much of this should be detailed in a review. When it becomes an anchor to a reader, it should by all means be mentioned, and of course, if the review is coming from an editorial critique, but in general a simple, "there were the usual typos" generally suffices. I am speaking now as a reviewer - a Vine reviewer at that.

Ed Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> There is still a question, however, on how much of this should be detailed in a review. When it becomes an anchor to a reader, it should by all means be mentioned, and of course, if the review is coming from an editorial critique, but in general a simple, "there were the usual typos" generally suffices. I am speaking now as a reviewer - a Vine reviewer at that.
> 
> Ed Patterson


Well, I did mention it in my review, simply because it happened in every single instance of use and, at times, it made for awkward reading.

I don't consider grammatical errors 'typos'. To me, this is a tyop. Bad grammar is not a typo, it's a lack of knowledge. Okay, well not all the time, sometimes it really is just a mistake, like when an author goes back and makes a correction and forgets to change a verb tense. But, when a particular grammatical error is made throughout a book, it can't be considered a 'typo'.

I have just used, "It had a few grammatical errors." in a review when I didn't feel that they were numerous enough to detract from the reading.

But, I freely admit that I am a stickler for grammar. I just can't help it. Too many errors just throw me right out of the book. Sometimes, I wish I were better at ignoring them. LOL


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh, wait. I see what you mean.

I do give examples of errors that I find when I felt they were numerous enough to affect my enjoyment of the story.

I started doing this awhile ago when I began being "attacked" by authors claiming that I was lying about the errors and even going so far as to say that I didn't read their book and just made stuff up.

Giving examples doesn't always help as I still had one author say that I didn't read the book, just ran it through a spell-checker.     I have no idea how I would spell-check a book on the Kindle, but maybe they knew something I didn't.  

Anyway, because of the responses I have received, I try to give some specific examples from various parts of the book. However, like I said, I do this only when I feel they were numerous enough to warrant it. But, still, it's just my opinion. I have seen books with multiple, glowing five star reviews where no errors were mentioned in any of them, but I had trouble reading the book because of them. So, obviously, grammar and typos don't mean very much to some people.

There is another reason for it and that is to give the author a chance to fix them and reload a corrected copy, if they wish. It has helped a couple, or at least they told me that it did.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I am happy that I am not a born grammarian, otherwise I'd be writing telephone books. But also, I would probably not enjoy reading as much as I do. It must be tough to try to read anything and enjoy it when besieged with the world's bad grammar, and then by author's penchant to break grammar's rules as a matter of style, something that fills me with unending and unerring delight.   If I had a dime for every time I have argued (and won) a grammatical argument with my editor, I could retire on a mountain of silver (alloy). Where my editor comes into best play is when we do argue over a word used or a phrase. Sometimes I will ameliorate the phrase to something else (never her suggestion - that would make me sacrifice my hard earned dime). But of course, my quotient for a clean mms. (for a 1 person + 1/2 employment in this publishing concern) is 95%. If I get it to 98%, I wear macaroni in my hat. If it's below that I will get it mentioned in 10 out of 11 reviews. But this is a discussion we have had among Indie authors before and if grammatical perfection is a goal, I would have kept my 5 figure a year Marketing Director's job.   It takes me anywhere between five to thirty seven years to write a novel, so striving for perfection is in order - however, perfection will always elude. Fortunately, the majority of my readers come to my pages for a good read, and I mean not to disappoint them. BTW, I already found a typo in my new book. I missed an apostrophe, changing what was supposed to be we'll to well. Peg, my editor said, "leave it in and see if it shows up in a review." I told her I would dock her pay check, but how do you subtract zero from zero.   Life is short, love is long, art is eternal and it is what it is.

Edward C. Patterson
Vine Reviewer


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

I am able to completely ignore grammar issues when it is part of a 'style', such as an entire book told in the voice of a Southerner. It would just be wrong for dialogue to have perfect grammar, in most instances.  I do know when an author is breaking a rule 'on purpose', or at least, I think I can tell most of the time. That doesn't bother me at all, as long as it is done skillfully.

Oddly enough, I am a 'born grammarian', but I don't write telephone books.    I am an Accountant, though, if that helps explain anything.  

I ain't perfect, though, that's for dang sure!

I think the big point I want to make is that I hold Self-Published books up to the same standards that I hold Commercially Published books. Maybe that's unfair to some?  I don't know, but to me if you wanna play with the big boys, i.e. charge for your work, you have to expect to be judged as one.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

No it's fair. I'm just a sick as a dog today and more vulnerable to "opinion publique."   Besides, I have now fulfilled my obligation to my editor, long may she wave. I dragged myself into work today as "an accountant," my day job - now. I was a Marketing Director, but this 9 to 5 business, and taking no work home after hours is just fine for me. It's one of the reasons I can publish now. I just handed a copy of my new book to the Vice President who downsized me 8 years ago. He made a comment on how this one was lighter than the usual ones. "It makes up in emotions," I said. "A three hankie read and a ten hankie write." We then had a long discussion about downsizing. I told him that everyone gets to a point in their lives when things must shrink and must be brought into balance. Priorities shift and goals change. He has always been somewhat guilty letting me go, because it had nothing to do with my work (I'm with the company for 45 years). I told him today that I did my equalizing a bit sooner than most people - forced to, so to speak, but it has freed me of the criticism of a few elite controllers and I am now beholding to a wider circle of critics. Still, when I reach the clearing at the end of the path (to quote King), my stone will read: "He tried his best to give back to this world as much as he has taken. May the critics condemn him not for the folly of his pen."  

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> No it's fair. I'm just a sick as a dog today and more vulnerable to "opinion publique."  Edward C. Patterson


Wow! I hope you feel better soon.

I hope that I got across in my review of the book of yours I have read that I did enjoy it, and that I consider you to be an excellent writer.

I even recommended it on the 'other' forum.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RedAdept:

You most certainly did, and I thank you. I'm just not used to see the phrase - "The Bad Stuff," in a review. Don't worry. I'll get used to it. My reviewing style is a little different, that's all. I never treat it as a balance sheet and I never take an author to task for typos or "bad stuff" (That's always handled, if at all, in a private email). But I guess I'm sensitive to my fellow authors and follow the decorum. If a book is bad, for example, I just do not review it. I've come across many and my silence hurts sometimes as much as my voice. I certainly can be snarky and witty when it comes to putting down a dead dog. But that's me. I'd rather send off an email (fortunately most eBook authors provide contact information in their books - I know I do in mine), and say something like - "You might want to rethink such and such." However, in most cases, I will just withhold my opinion as a private reader. As a Vine reviewer, I need to speak out - but I have an incentive there directly from Amazon, but even then I will not treat my review as an equation. Just me. As for reviews of my own books, I would rather have a one star "this is crap" review, than No review, however, because I try to get a response from my reader. Then again, I never say anything unkind about a living author, because "what goes around, comes around." And after all, God is my agent.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Putting it in "Good Stuff" / "Bad Stuff" format wasn't really meant to be an equation.  

It was partially to keep me from doing a bunch of "This was good, but" or "This was good, except for" sentences. Because praise with a caveat doesn't mean as much.

The other reason was to remind me to put something good about a book regardless of how low an opinion I had. The author put in the effort to write, so I can put in the effort to find something good to say about it, even if it's a one-star review.

As for why I bother to write the one or two star reviews: I'm not trying to put the author down in those cases. I am thinking from a reader's standpoint. Sure, I could send the author a private e-mail, if they have made their e-mail address public, but in the meantime, 10 other people have purchased a book that, IMHO, was not fit for publication.  I would want to be warned if a book was filled with errors or the Kindle formatting is so bad that it hinders reading. Now, some readers don't care about that, so they can pick and choose the parts of a review that matter to them.

And, well my other reason is a bit harsh, but, hey, we all have that side of us. I paid good money for a book, money that I worked for, so I feel entitled to say what I think about it. Yeah, I'm a witch.


But, with your post, I am going to give some thought as to rewording the "Topics" in my reviews. 
Hmmm....Maybe "Liked" & "Disliked". Would that go down easier?  
Suggestions?


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

"Liked/Disliked" is MUCH better. . . .I speak as a reader not an author. To me, "bad stuff" implies a complete objectivity. . . .but as we've been discussing, reviews are very _objective_ and what bothers one person won't bother another. And maybe your "good stuff" is something that would annoy the heck out of me. So saying what you liked or disliked is better because it makes it clear that it's an opinion. It also helps to say why, of course.  Also, the tone is more conversational: "hey, I read this and here's what I thought" and less superior "I read this and I know what I'm talking about so don't argue with me." I, personally, am not going to put a lot of stock in the second sort; I'm more likely to have a response on the order of, "Who the heck are you and why should I care what you think?" and dismiss it.

Now, please don't misunderstand. . . .to my knowledge, I've not read any of your reviews and have no real idea about the tone of them. . .this is just my initial reaction to the difference between using "good stuff/bad stuff" vs. "liked/disliked". And it's totally my opinion. It's also, of course, quite possible for the full write up to completely clarify how you're using the phrases.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RedAdept - I'm glad I'm provoking thought, but your style is your style. I never think to warn other readers, because . . . reading is so subjective that it never occurred to me. Still, given some of the responses you have evoked for some authors, I can see where you're coming from (pardon my dangler). Some reviewers, as a matter of style and a matter of balance, will always put something negative in their review. I see it and have it in even five-star reviews. Perhaps saying, "I disliked the frequent grammar errors in this author's writing and found it disconcerting at times," has a better effect in a review than, "Bad Stuff was found at location 1027 where a word was missing," because it better supports a reviewer's credibility. I know (without renewing topics that are forbidden at Kindleboards) why you are so exacting and can appreciate your sensitivity. I am also glad that we can speak openly about this as professionals thinking about public assessments. I am less sensitive to reviews now a days. When I first started out, I would prostrate myself for a review and anything less than 5 stars gave me heartburn. No more. In fact, with my new book, I received a request to send it out for a review from a review site that has become so accustomed to reviewing my books they no longer wait for a request. That's a comfort. I have come to recognize that readers do not buy my titles, but me and the test of competence is really the thickness of my skin . . . and my skin is glacial.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks, Ed & Ann!

Once again you have shown me something that will help me do my reviews in a better manner.

I am going to switch to the "Like/Dislike" format. I do think that comes across a bit softer and shows that it is just my opinion.

Edward, 

Another reason for giving examples is for the reader's sake. Some people are bothered by misplaced commas, some are bothered by misspellings, some by typos, and still others by grammatical issues (subject/verb agreement, etc.). Everyone has their threshhold.

So, if my examples include things they don't really care about, then they can ignore those.
For instance, I really don't think the types of 'errors' I pointed out in my review of your book will bother a lot of people.

That said: Edward, I 'adjusted' my review a bit for your book. Check it out and let me know if it seems better, or comes across better.  It's not up yet, so I am sending it to you on this forum.

No, you haven't berated me into changing it. I appreciate honest criticism just as you do and want to make my reviews better and more palatable for both authors and readers.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RedAdept:

I like that better (although Peg will like it even better - she's more sensitive than I am), and the review was a great one to begin with (dangler alert). As for misplaced commas, let me tell you something about those things. Commas are the ban of a writer's existance, because they are so damn important, but easily misplaced, because the sound of pre-sounded sentence to an author does not require a comma, while an un-sounded sentence to a reader's first encounter with it, does. That's why authors miss so many of them. I require myself (and Peg) to read the book aloud, the best way to catch comma placement. I require myself to have all the commas in place before Peg looks at it, otherwise she'll give me hell when she catches one. In general, she scratches one that's been placed where it shouldn't be (better safe than sorry  ). However, when I do the final, final read through (which I do on the kindle with a large type-size), most of my annotations are generally commas issues. Then there's the story about the Butterfly Duck, which I'll only tell upon request. I think I've already told the story about the paint somewhere else.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> Commas are the ban of a writer's existance,


I think you mean "bane" 

But I agree with you. Maybe it's best to say they're a _pain_ (not to be confused with _pane_ -- wait, that's another thread.)



> Then there's the story about the Butterfly Duck, which I'll only tell upon request. I think I've already told the story about the paint somewhere else.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


Consider it requested. 

(Just trying to help you feel better!)


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Okay, without giving a spoiler to my The Jade Owl Klub readers, one scene I continually wrote and rewrote in The Jade Owl takes place in a garden in Shanghai and somehow "flowers" magically appear to our group of adventurers - flowers that are animated, their petals (pedals - couldn't resist) castanetting like butterfly wings. They in fact are deadly metal flanges, but our adventurers don't know this. So while some are admiring them, our hero touches them and discovers the truth. The line he speaks is "Butterflies?" then he yells out to the others to assume a crouching position. Well, the dialog line came out. "Butterflies? Duck!" Of course, I missed this in the read back and didn't catch it until it was with my agent, at which time (this was revision 5), I rewrote the line and then the entire scene. The paint business was a typo. A hint for all those authors who write using Microsoft word - Always have auto spell correct turned OFF. The correction is not detected in spell check and might get by you and your proofing staff. This was the case where one of my characters in The Jade Owl says: "I


Spoiler



pissed


 my pants," but thanks to Microsoft and a triple miss in editing, the line came out: "I


Spoiler



pissed


 my paints. " It was picked-up by a beta-reader who asked me whether its was Gliddens or Sherwin-Williams. 

Ed Patterson


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh. . . . .good. . . .things to watch for as I read. . . .   I'm pretty sure I just got to Shanghai. . . . . .


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Ah, you are meeting Mrs. K'ao, who smiles, as is her nature.  

Ed P


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> RedAdept:
> 
> I like that better (although Peg will like it even better - she's more sensitive than I am), and the review was a great one to begin with (dangler alert). As for misplaced commas, let me tell you something about those things. Commas are the ban of a writer's existance, because they are so damn important, but easily misplaced, because the sound of pre-sounded sentence to an author does not require a comma, while an un-sounded sentence to a reader's first encounter with it, does. That's why authors miss so many of them. I require myself (and Peg) to read the book aloud, the best way to catch comma placement. I require myself to have all the commas in place before Peg looks at it, otherwise she'll give me hell when she catches one. In general, she scratches one that's been placed where it shouldn't be (better safe than sorry ). However, when I do the final, final read through (which I do on the kindle with a large type-size), most of my annotations are generally commas issues. Then there's the story about the Butterfly Duck, which I'll only tell upon request. I think I've already told the story about the paint somewhere else.
> 
> Edward C. Patterson


I'm glad you like it. I will attempt to adhere to that better verbage/style in the future. It may help me to avoid some angry authors; although, I think some authors will settle for no less than a 5 star glowing review with no criticism whatsoever. 

It's showing up now, so if anyone else would like to view the review in question, go look at the one for Bobby's Trace. I welcome comments on review style.

Misplaced commas don't bother me as much as they do some people. Although, they can be annoying when constantly misplaced (or missed). I think I catch them because when I read, there's a voice in my head. Yep, I hear voices (explains a lot, huh?).

I've had people say that it's odd that I can catch even tiny, minute errors since I read so fast. Well, that's what I mean about a 'born grammarian'.

If I had more imagination, I would be a pretty good author. LOL As it is, I think I was an editor in a previous life. ;-)


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

RedAdept said:


> I'm glad you like it. I will attempt to adhere to that better verbage/style in the future. It may help me to avoid some angry authors; although, I think some authors will settle for no less than a 5 star glowing review with no criticism whatsoever.


I've written far fewer reviews than you, but I've received comments from a couple authors thanking me for a less than perfect review. You must be reading _Memoirs of the Prickly Pears_ again.


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## Lynn McNamee (Jan 8, 2009)

Geoffrey said:


> I've written far fewer reviews than you, but I've received comments from a couple authors thanking me for a less than perfect review. You must be reading _Memoirs of the Prickly Pears_ again.


Oh, don't get me wrong. There are many, many very professional Indie authors out there. I have actually gotten a private e-mail thanking me for pointing out errors and giving a TWO star review.

The majority of the authors are professional.

Out of 140+ reviews, probably 120 of them are for Indie works. I have only had maybe 5 authors get bent out of shape. That's so low a percentage that it shouldn't even count. 

Unfortunately, it only takes a few 'bad apples' to give a bad reputation.


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