# Talking about writing (split from Grammar Pet Peeves)



## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Funny and true. Yet my sypathies still go out to authors who are hanging from the dilemma. Will sheltered or unsophisticated readers understand that the Rio Grande is, indeed, a river?
> 
> Imagine a line: "They found his battered body in the Rio Grande." What is that? A big plaza? Church? Park? No, I had better say "River."
> 
> This is the kind of self-torture writers go through. It's enough to make you drown yourself in the Big River!


Good point... so when writers don't have a specific target readership, they have to decide on something between going with a higher level of language complexity (risking alienating those who don't understand), and writing at sixth-grade level just to make sure (and risk boring some people).... If you try to find a happy medium, how do you decide what that right level is?


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Annalog said:


> I agree, especially with names of rivers, mountains, etc. While I notice the repetition, it does not bother me. It can be more confusing when the repetition is missing than when it is present. This is especially true now that there is a community named Rillito. We also have Rillito River Park (with repetition), Rillito Park Race Track (without repetition), and River Road (without Rillito). Since the Rillito itself is usually dry, it could also be a reminder that it can be filled with water to call it the Rillito *River*.


I hope that I am not repeating information. It has always been my understanding that newspapers are written to the 6th grade (12year old) - younger?. And that is why the level of writing is so basic. Writing so that one who has no idea what a Rio Grande is will understand the Rio Grande River.
Right?
Just Sayin.....


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Probably depends on the paper and the focus audience of the story, but, for general interest stories, I think you're probably right.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

It makes sense for newspapers and other publications that are meant to inform the public to aim at a low-average reading level.  (Now if only the IRS would get with the program in their instructions...)

But what about novels?  How do you decide at which level to write?


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Good point... so when writers don't have a specific target readership, they have to decide on something between going with a higher level of language complexity (risking alienating those who don't understand), and writing at sixth-grade level just to make sure (and risk boring some people).... If you try to find a happy medium, how do you decide what that right level is?


It's not always easy. But every writer, copywriter and journalist have to make the effort.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Good point... so when writers don't have a specific target readership, they have to decide on something between going with a higher level of language complexity (risking alienating those who don't understand), and writing at sixth-grade level just to make sure (and risk boring some people).... If you try to find a happy medium, how do you decide what that right level is?


There are some guidelines and "rules of thumb." Most patient education materials are written at a 4th/5th grade level. I believe the New York Times is at a 9th grade level; USA Today...6th grade. There are formulas (built into word) to calculate the reading level of a document.

L


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Leslie said:


> There are some guidelines and "rules of thumb." Most patient education materials are written at a 4th/5th grade level. I believe the New York Times is at a 9th grade level; USA Today...6th grade. There are formulas (built into word) to calculate the reading level of a document.


Yes. As I said, it makes sense for publications that are meant to _inform _to aim at a low-average reading level. But I was wondering about novels, and how authors decide at which level to write.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Yes. As I said, it makes sense for publications that are meant to _inform _to aim at a low-average reading level. But I was wondering about novels, and how authors decide at which level to write.


Given the option, most authors will target the largest demographic, however the subject of a novel is probably the real determining factor. That is: sometimes writing for a higher education level is simply unavoidable due to the language required to properly describe the events within a book.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Given the option, most authors will target the largest demographic, however the subject of a novel is probably the real determining factor. That is: sometimes writing for a higher education level is simply unavoidable due to the language required to properly describe the events within a book.


That makes sense. I'm sure that this is all fairly subjective, but part of me wants to analyze this some more and pin things down. Bear with me...  

The "largest demographic" level that you mention can't be just the average reading level of the population, but instead the average reading level of that segment of the population likely to buy/read books. Presumably that's somewhat higher.

So are there statistics that show, for instance, that most buyers of mystery novels have at least two years of college, so that you can aim for that level? Or do you just wing it? Or do you go by what other authors in the same field are doing, and match that?

In translation work it's always useful to find out the target audience, so that your output is appropriate for those readers. But, again, most of the time that's material meant to inform, so you aim low unless you _know_ that the intended readers are experts in the field. For creative writing I wouldn't have a clue how to determine the "right" level. Just trying to understand better... This may seem really obvious to you writers, but it isn't to me.


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> This may seem really obvious to you writers, but it isn't to me.


Perhaps not so obvious.

To a novelist considering a target audience, age and gender are probably more important than education.


Age is a factor that blurs the statistical lines of educational demographics simply because the high school dropout who continues to read may eventually attain the same vocabulary and comprehension level as someone with an advanced degree. (Feed your head, to quote Gracie Slick.)
Gender is very difficult factor to quantify because the data are badly skewed by the basic fact that more women read fiction.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff said:


> To a novelist considering a target audience, age and gender are probably more important than education.


Age I can see, for the cumulative education aspect as well as the shared experiences (and therefore familiar references) of a particular generation.

But gender? OK, if you're writing a romance novel it's probably for women. (I feel like I'm on thin ice here, but I'd wager that the statistics support that statement.)  What about historical novels, or thrillers/mysteries, or SF/fantasy? Those probably have a far more gender-balanced appeal. And does that mean you choose (or avoid) phrases based on the presumed average reader's gender?


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> But gender? OK, if you're writing a romance novel it's probably for women. (I feel like I'm on thin ice here, but I'd wager that the statistics support that statement.) What about historical novels, or thrillers/mysteries, or SF/fantasy? Those probably have a far more gender-balanced appeal. And does that mean you choose (or avoid) phrases based on the presumed average reader's gender?


According to a report, that I'll never be able to find if you challenge me, you would lose that wager. The report stated that romance novels and history books are the least impacted by age and gender. Although many men will not admit to reading romance novels, according to the study that I mentioned, they do.

In reference to traditional publishing, I can't speak to your question about gender specific phrases with any authority other than to say that Harlequin has very detailed guidelines. Leslie, Sig or one of the other experienced publishers would be a better source.

Independent authors are by their very nature all over the board. Some write carefully for a target audience and others simply let the words flow. We are in the midst of a new era in literature that's been spawned by the e-book and self publishing tools so the rules change daily. What fun.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> And does that mean you choose (or avoid) phrases based on the presumed average reader's gender?


I don't know about phrases so much, but...

In the world of authors of male/male romance/erotic stories, there's a heated debate about whether only gay men should write m/m vs. straight women. It's interesting given that 90% of the authors are women and they estimate that 90% of the readers are also women. But a certain vocal minority believe that women can't "get it right" because they don't have certain body parts. Of course, this ignores the obvious fact that many women have been with men and probably have a pretty good understanding of how the whole sex thing works. I mean, come on...can an author only write a murder mystery if they've murdered someone? A story about a person dying of cancer only if they've had cancer? I don't think so. It's called imagination.

I have a personal joke that you can always tell a male m/m writer because the men seem obsessed with the length, girth, and amount of emission (in CUPS!) of a certain body part. Female authors find other descriptors to be more salient. 

L


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Hey can we delve deeply into the book writing process here.
Or should someone start another "public please" thread?
Because I think there is a lot of info about the process that has just started to be touched on in the last few posts, that many of us would like to hear about and/or ask questions about.
Like the gender thing in writing.  What makes a "girly" book.  You know the romance novels. Why do women (apparently mostly) read them?  And where do the experiences written about come from?  Same thing about an action book primarily appealing to men?
Is this the right place, because as you can see I got a lot of questions?
Just askin......


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff said:


> According to a report, that I'll never be able to find if you challenge me, you would lose that wager. The report stated that romance novels and history books are the least impacted by age and gender. Although many men will not admit to reading romance novels, according to the study that I mentioned, they do.


I wonder how they came up with the study data, then, if men won't admit to it... 



Jeff said:


> Harlequin has very detailed guidelines.


LOL! I can just imagine... quotas on the numbers of references to brawny chests and pounding hearts... (ok, maybe that's unfair, I only ever read one Harlequin novel and that was over 15 years ago, so if that's no longer accurate don't anyone get upset, please).



Jeff said:


> Independent authors are by their very nature all over the board. Some write carefully for a target audience and others simply let the words flow. We are in the midst of a new era in literature that's been spawned by the e-book and self publishing tools so the rules change daily. What fun.


I imagine it's very exciting to be a writer at a time when there is such growth and such changes imminent, some of them probably not yet predictable.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Leslie said:


> It's interesting given that 90% of the authors are women and they estimate that 90% of the readers are also women.


Really?? Is that a quotable fact? That would support a point that I was making in a paper... is there any place I could find a documentable source for that statistic?



Leslie said:


> I have a personal joke that you can always tell a male m/m writer because the men seem obsessed with the length, girth, and amount of emission (in CUPS!) of a certain body part.


  Just like in real life....


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> Hey can we delve deeply into the book writing process here.
> Or should someone start another "public please" thread?


Adding my opinion here -- I think that's a great idea, Geoff! Is there any way that the mods could move these past few posts (the ones that pertain to the mechanics of fiction writing) to a new thread? There's a lot left to explore...


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> I wonder how they came up with the study data, then, if men won't admit to it...


Given all the heat I took from women on this forum when I said that I enjoyed Gertie's _Ariana's Pride_, my guess would be that men might be more forthcoming when responding to a survey than they would be in a public conversation.


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Oy vey.


Ditto Jeff. Exactly what I was thinking! Or, to translate from the Yiddish: O tempore, O mores!

Interesting discussion. My hunch: There are all sort of animals in the fiction jungle. Some publishers and authors try to craft a best-seller in a frankly Machiavellian way: Exposition here, followed by tension there, interrupted by comic relief now, and a dollop of sexual inference right after that. Then a hint of violence and a relieving resolution of conflict before the final wrap-up. There are even books on how to measure, hammer and saw your way to fiction fame.

At the opposite end of the spectrum is the completely intuitive writer, a natural story teller. He slashes through rules and formulas. She strives for one thing: to keep the story and the reader moving forward. Everything else falls away. For they know that unless that "pull" is there, nothing else matters--however targeted the prose. Old-time copywriters had a favorite injunction: "Every word a baited trap." Not a bad mantra for a novelist, right?


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## Jeff (Oct 28, 2008)

sigrosenblum said:


> Ditto Jeff. Exactly what I was thinking! Or, to translate from the Yiddish: O tempore, O mores!


Ha, Sig. You nailed me with a quote that I'd reconsidered and deleted. When I wrote it I thought it was funny. When I re-read it, it seemed disrespectful.

The freedom that indie publishing provides is a double edged sword. Edge One: Authors can now flaunt convention to truly release their creativity. Edge Two: Authors can produce works that are less than they would have been with the benefit of a good editor.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

By request, I've split this discussion into its own thread.

Leslie
Global Mod


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Susan in VA said:


> Really?? Is that a quotable fact? That would support a point that I was making in a paper... is there any place I could find a documentable source for that statistic?


I'd say try googling it. It comes up over and over again in discussions of m/m stories and slash fanfiction.

L


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## sigrosenblum (Dec 22, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Ha, Sig. You nailed me with a quote that I'd reconsidered and deleted. When I wrote it I thought it was funny. When I re-read it, it seemed disrespectful.
> 
> The freedom that indie publishing provides is a double edged sword. Edge One: Authors can now flaunt convention to truly release their creativity. Edge Two: Authors can produce works that are less than they would have been with the benefit of a good editor.


Not disrespectful at all. Keep it in the record. It IS funny.

Yes, good editing can help. But it's the traditional publishers who have been stingy with this kind of assistance. However, it remains true that much sloppy, shoddy, amateurish work is now in the pipeline. A small price to pay for the new democratization on the way.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Leslie said:


> By request, I've split this discussion into its own thread.
> 
> Leslie
> Global Mod


Thank you Leslie (you mods are REALLY on the ball).
I liked the Grammar thread - learned a lot and laughed a lot.
But I really like this thread.
And I didn't want to see it "get back on topic".
So thank you again for making your magic.
Just sayin......


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## intinst (Dec 23, 2008)

Jeff said:


> Given all the heat I took from women on this forum when I said that I enjoyed Gertie's _Ariana's Pride_, my guess would be that men might be more forthcoming when responding to a survey than they would be in a public conversation.


Know what you mean, the reaction I got from the women on the board when I mentioned that I read some "romance" would have been a little embarrassing in person. On line where no one really knows me it was kind of funny.


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## GeorgeGlass (Mar 25, 2009)

intinst said:


> Know what you mean, the reaction I got from the women on the board when I mentioned that I read some "romance" would have been a little embarrassing in person. On line where no one really knows me it was kind of funny.


Walking around with the DTB version of Flannery O'Connor's "A Good Man is Hard to Find" was quite an experience.

Even though that title line from the book came from a scene where they were talking about hiring good low-wage help, people didn't really take it that way.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm very new at writing a novel, but for me, I wrote what pleases me.  There was no real target audience and no attempt to write for a particular reading level.  Actually, the characters did what they wanted to do, and I just went along for the ride.  

Probably my style was influenced by reading a lot of romance novels, especially historicals.  My own inclinations led me to add in more history than is usually found in romance.  

I didn't start reading romance novels until about 12-15 years ago.  Prior to that, I read mysteries, action/adventure, spy novels, and historical fiction, all of which I still read.  I'm an eclectic (though wimpy) reader, but writing romance came most naturally to me.  

Yes, I've read some garbage by indie authors, and I've read some gems.  On the other hand, I've certainly read garbage put out by the traditional publishers as well as some masterpieces.


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## geoffthomas (Feb 27, 2009)

Well here is part of my "need to know".
I am almost done with AP Gertie - and have enjoyed it very much.
Lots of mystery and good characters.  Enjoyed the Romany (did I type that right?) a lot.
But the question I have is that in books that are kinda Romance books, like AP, there tend to be a lot of explicit sex (yah know?).  Heaving loins and all that.  Now you did it with taste, but still there.

Some writers in other genre (did I use that word right?) would just say they had a good time and go on to the next scene.  
Seeing as how we have identified Romance novels with women, do women think that much about explicit sex?  sorry it I am taking this to an incorrect subject.  Feel free to slap me down if I step over a line.
But I wonder......


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm not Gertie, but I love this topic, Geoff!

In some of the groups I belong to, there's lot of discussion about the dividing lines between romance, erotic, erotica, porn, and PWP (porn without plot). How explicit should a story be, who likes what, etc. Everyone has a different opinion, it seems. And there is no consistency in the definitions, which can make it hard for a reader to find a book that fits in his/her comfort zone. Some publishers even use rating scales for degrees of hotness/explicitness.

There was a free book for the Kindle a few months ago called "Perfecting Amanda." I read it and would characterize it as erotic. Someone else here at KBoards started it and stopped, calling it porn. 

If I were rating Gertie's book, I'd call it romance with a few descriptive sex scenes. I don't think she crossed into erotic territory (which is probably a good thing selling-wise since lots of readers won't cross into erotic, either! See above). I'm sure Gertie will chime in with what she thinks it is. (BTW, Gertie, next time, can we have a bit more description of Jeremy?   )

To answer your other question, "Do women think that much about explicit sex?"  ---- hahahahaha! Yes! And I like to read it, too.  

L


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

geoffthomas said:


> Well here is part of my "need to know".
> I am almost done with AP Gertie - and have enjoyed it very much.
> Lots of mystery and good characters. Enjoyed the Romany (did I type that right?) a lot.
> But the question I have is that in books that are kinda Romance books, like AP, there tend to be a lot of explicit sex (yah know?). Heaving loins and all that. Now you did it with taste, but still there.


Glad you liked the Rom. That was one of my favorite parts.

Thank you for feeling the sex scenes were tastefully done. I've read some pretty raunchy stuff, and I hoped to avoid that. I did try to make those scenes advance the characters and their relationship.

I've noticed that romance novels tend to have three sex scenes. I don't know if this is an unwritten rule or not, but it always seems to be that way.



> Some writers in other genre (did I use that word right?) would just say they had a good time and go on to the next scene.


Yes, they do, and that's probably appropriate in, e.g., action/adventure or mystery. Those scenes aren't necessary to move the book into the "elephant hunt" phase or the "whodunit" phase.

A romance novel is all about advancing a relationship and the feelings have to be shown in many ways, including sex. Maybe I should say it's more about courtship than sex for it's own sake.



> Seeing as how we have identified Romance novels with women, do women think that much about explicit sex? sorry it I am taking this to an incorrect subject. Feel free to slap me down if I step over a line.
> But I wonder......


That's our little secret.  Seriously, though, it depends on the scenes and how they are written. I read (and I use that term loosely) a book where the man kept pushing at the woman (physically) until she gave in, and those scenes were probably about 2/3 of the book. I kept skipping over them and when I realized that there was nothing to tie it all together, I tossed it out. I wouldn't even give it away.

That's just one woman's opinion.


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Leslie said:


> I'm not Gertie, but I love this topic, Geoff!
> 
> In some of the groups I belong to, there's lot of discussion about the dividing lines between romance, erotic, erotica, porn, and PWP (porn without plot). How explicit should a story be, who likes what, etc. Everyone has a different opinion, it seems. And there is no consistency in the definitions, which can make it hard for a reader to find a book that fits in his/her comfort zone. Some publishers even use rating scales for degrees of hotness/explicitness.
> 
> There was a free book for the Kindle a few months ago called "Perfecting Amanda." I read it and would characterize it as erotic. Someone else here at KBoards started it and stopped, calling it porn.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; porn is in the eye of the reader.



> If I were rating Gertie's book, I'd call it romance with a few descriptive sex scenes. I don't think she crossed into erotic territory (which is probably a good thing selling-wise since lots of readers won't cross into erotic, either! See above). I'm sure Gertie will chime in with what she thinks it is.


I think you said it pretty well. Eroticism would have been out of place with Ariana and Jeremy. Neither were sophisticated or particularly knowledgeable in the ways of the world. I would classify them as two innocents caught in a storm.



> (BTW, Gertie, next time, can we have a bit more description of Jeremy?  )


Think you're going to see Jeremy again, do you? I'll keep your request in mind ... if Jeremy shows up in future installments. 



> To answer your other question, "Do women think that much about explicit sex?" ---- hahahahaha! Yes! And I like to read it, too.
> 
> L


Wouldn't you think the guys would be happy about that?


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## kim (Nov 20, 2008)

geoffthomas said:


> Seeing as how we have identified Romance novels with women, do women think that much about explicit sex? sorry it I am taking this to an incorrect subject. Feel free to slap me down if I step over a line.
> But I wonder......


Another woman's point of view: Of course we do! Men don't have a monopoly on that.


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Gertie Kindle 'Turn to Page 390' said:


> Think you're going to see Jeremy again, do you? I'll keep your request in mind ... if Jeremy shows up in future installments.


Of course, there's always Captain Kyle, too...


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## Gertie Kindle (Nov 6, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Of course, there's always Captain Kyle, too...


Any particular "parts" you would like me to describe more fully?  Happy to oblige my readers.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff said:


> Given all the heat I took from women on this forum when I said that I enjoyed Gertie's _Ariana's Pride_, my guess would be that men might be more forthcoming when responding to a survey than they would be in a public conversation.


Is it true that you skipped all the parts about fashion?


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

sigrosenblum said:


> Old-time copywriters had a favorite injunction: "Every word a baited trap." Not a bad mantra for a novelist, right?


Oh, I like that! Not just applicable to novelists, either.


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

Gertie Kindle 'Turn to Page 390' said:


> Actually, the characters did what they wanted to do, and I just went along for the ride.


That sounds like what most writers of fiction probably aspire to. I can't wait to read this book! (Right after the last exams, last papers, and finishing Josh's book.)


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## Susan in VA (Apr 3, 2009)

geoffthomas said:


> Seeing as how we have identified Romance novels with women, do women think that much about explicit sex?


  Geoff, perhaps you should ask your wife that question. Perhaps after sharing a bottle of wine first. Ask for details. Make sure you allow lots of time for her answer. Oh, and turn off the phone beforehand.

(We think about it. Many of us read about it. Some of us even write about it.)


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