# What a difference a year makes



## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

It's sad to me that a year ago, when I first began really participating in KB, the boards were filled with the biggest names in indie publishing. Not a day went by without a post by the likes of Hugh, or Holly, or Elle, or Courtney, or Lilliana, or Bella, or Joe, etc.

A funny thing happened as the year progressed. I started hearing reports of negative reviews posted on those authors' books whenever they were active here. I didn't pay much attention, and shrugged off any lousy reviews I got as a typical part of the business. Random. Just the odds, nothing more.

But I also noticed that, slowly but surely, the big names stopped appearing as often. It went from a marvelous forum where newbies could hear from the big sellers as well as the small, what was working and what wasn't, to something...different. Those names slowed, and in some cases stopped, posting. 

I was alerted after the last series of posts I did here that I'd gotten several scathing reviews - on books that are 95% or more reviewed in glowing terms, and hadn't seen anything resembling a negative review for months. And yet I tracked the dates, and sure enough.

I didn't want to believe the negative rumors, but I'd seen for myself a troubling effect at work.

Don't get me wrong. I haven't noticed an exodus from my work, nor really any effect on my sales. But there was a pattern - a pattern others had commented on, often offline or in private forums.

And so we have a different kind of place now, where the older hands have largely gone to more hospitable pastures, leaving the boards to new voices and a different, for me, at any rate, vibe.

I can now understand why.

I say it's sad because I enjoyed hearing what million sellers were doing. I enjoyed interacting with them, hearing what was making them successful, but most of all, seeing how their brains worked. I can't help but think that the boards are poorer for the absence of the most popular authors in their genres, as are newbies looking for information on how those marquis names are achieving their success. That's not to denigrate those who aren't selling as many units as an Elle or Holly or Hugh. It's just that their perspectives were exceedingly valuable for what they were.

I've arrived at the same reluctant conclusion that some, or many, of them have. Giving back shouldn't carry a high price, and yet, well, there you have it.

Camelot never seems to last forever. A shame.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

This is true. I've noticed a 'quieting' of the boards myself. I'm sorry that happened to you, and anyone else that has been a huge part of the reason I come here. I miss you all personally and professionally. It's sad that people will bite the fingers that feed them, as even those people doing the drive-by's (if they are writers) stand to lose more than they gain by pushing you guys to duck for cover. Surely the guidance, sharing of successful publishing, and advice helped everyone... Friend or foe. I wish everyone would remember we're not competing against each other (mostly), we're competing against the big six and should stick together in this Indie Movement.

I have an idea to fix this. Only one thing comes to mind. Come back as an all new avatar/incognito name, with just one of those sales badge thingys already being used in your sigs, so we know you have the sales to back up your advice. If you all communicated via PM to re-enter the same day, no one would know who you are. It would be just a group of top-sellers undistinguishable from each other.

Shouldn't have to do that... But it's an option.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

It's envy, pure and simple.

Perhaps a truth, however, is that some of your positive reviews have come from people discovering you on the boards and checking your books out. Doesn't that perhaps balance things a little?

Still, there will always be those who think they can only rise by tearing someone else down.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

Coupled with the risk of bad reviews, I notice that when a person gives advice here, no matter how sound, some authors are just waiting to bite the person's head off.

But smart self-publishing newbies, like me, adapt. We don't just look to WC to get information. The big names have blogs, Facebook pages and/or they've written books - books with information that's still very much valid. We get as much information as we can, wherever we can.

Knowledge is power.


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## Anne Frasier (Oct 22, 2009)

what a bummer.


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## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

Sad, but true (Great, now I've got the Metallica song running through my head. Thanks for that.)

Seriously though... I've noticed the trend enough that I've hesitated posting on occasion, for fear of blowback. Not that I've got any sort of following at this point, but that doesn't matter as much as you'd think it would. 

I recently had my first bad review, but I've got my big-girl panties on so I was okay with that. The worse part about it is that the reviewer thought it would be clever to post a comment to the review trying to "out" my other pen name, like it was some big secret. H*ll, all my books have the same publisher listed, and I didn't even try to use vastly different author pictures. I'd segregated books by genre (romance, fantasy, and the stuff I don't care if my mom reads) and not out of any devious motives. 

ETA: Rethinking this just now...Perhaps they saw me here first, since I have all names/ books so obviously in my siggy?

I'm still struggling to ignore the comment. I keep telling myself that some people are just jerks, there is no excuse for their behavior and commenting at all will stir the pot


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

This is very sad and infuriating.


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## I Give Up (Jan 27, 2014)

After my first big post I had several poor reviews and a few people downvoted all of the positive reviews on my first book, presumably the same people. It just made me say _'Fuck it, I'll make myself so big that cocksuckers like that can't touch me.' _

Not quite there yet though, so stay away from my books!


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## Jerri Kay Lincoln (Jun 18, 2011)

This really bums me out.  I've learned so much from you and the others mentioned . . . this is really a huge loss.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

I agree. The boards went through yet another transition. They got even more popular, and for me they got a little too toxic. I've been looking elsewhere for helpful info and engaging discussion. KB isn't that place for me, anymore -- maybe that's a natural transition. For me, it has just become too much "I'm right and you're wrong because I'm louder/have to get the last word." Like the rest of the internet, I guess. And there's not enough new info to really keep me engaged here. I'm sorry that's the case, but I also don't think my absence matters! 

Anyway -- Russell, I'm sorry you've gotten some of that backlash, too. The boards are poorer for the loss of the "big" names -- and many others, as well.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

I will say the boards don't seem as supportive as they did only a few months ago. We should be celebrating others success not resenting it


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## KevinH (Jun 29, 2013)

This is a real bummer in that a lot of those names have some great wisdom to share. It's sad to think that they feel the need to withdraw from this forum.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi Russell,

I think you may well be right. But, just to play devil's lawyer, I'll argue alternate premises.

It's true the big names like you mentioned--Hugh, Holly, Elle, Courtney, Lilliana, Bella, Joe--are either quieter or gone. But mightn't there be other reasons for the downward curve of their participation? Maybe

1. They're simply so busy now with their success and sales that Writer's Cafe, understandably, takes a back seat.
2. They really don't have anything left to learn from these boards. It would be nice if they stuck around anyway (thank you Hugh and Joe et al), but once you've taken all the courses, you leave school.
3. They don't participate as much or at all because the people they know, the group that was here with them, have moved away. So in that sense it's a tipping point thing. One or two friends depart, then the exodus cascades.

I'm leaning more toward #1. Once an author hits the big time, it's probably more in their self-interest to spend the currency of their waking hours pursuing the dream than hanging out here.

But I don't know. It would be nice to hear from some of The Departed about their reasons why they don't hang out like they used to.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

violarivard said:


> After my first big post I had several poor reviews and a few people downvoted all of the positive reviews on my first book, presumably the same people. It just made me say _'[expletive] it, I'll make myself so big that [expletive]s like that can't touch me.' _
> 
> Not quite there yet though, so stay away from my books!


Viola, no disrespect to people like Hugh or Russell, but you're a very exciting newbie I'm glad I got to experience. You're knocking on the big boy (and big girl) door, and it appears they're gonna have to open it.


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## C Ryan Bymaster (Oct 4, 2013)

Hey Russell,

I'm still fairly new to the boards so I never got the chance to talk to the biggies, but I can say that I personally keep up to date with all of your postings. I do this for a couple of reasons. At first, (and still to this day) because of the great advice you are always happy to give out, but I now even more so because of the fact that you still take the time to post.

This tells me that you write because you love it, and not because the money.
And that's the type of writer I look up to.

Thanks for sticking around for all of us newcomers!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Simply a function of natural attrition. After a while, you've heard everything and said everything, and judge your time better spent. You move on. All communities are cyclical like this. Nothing else to it.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

This seems to be a cycle that happens every year or two.

I don't know that the attrition of group leaders and the cycle of negativity are always connected.  I know that they are in some way, but sometimes I think that it's more loosely connected.  The cycle of negativity here is pale compared to other places on the internet, and it's possible that we're seeing something generated from elsewhere.

What I do know is that we've had attrition of group leaders from the start, and that there is a cycle of negativity that erupts here now and then.

I do find that KB seems less negative than it was a couple of years ago, but it may be that I have simply not been reading the right threads. Or it may be that the worst of it is more subtle and under the radar (i.e. anonymous behavior) so I just haven't seen it.

Of course, a lot of the time such behavior can come from only one or two people -- on another writer's forum we had a problem with a woman with major psychological problems who constituted a gang of about 20 online personnas, most of which did not post on the forum itself.  Her forum personalities worked hard to be very best supportive friends of the people her other personalities were stalking.  When she finally crossed the line and started doing things to get the police interested, it took a lot of effort for the sysops to finally and completely ban her... and suddenly the whole group changed tone.

Camille


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

There's attrition and the natural cycle of things, sure, but Russell isn't the only person saying this. At _least_ a couple of the people he named (maybe more, I don't remember) and some he hasn't have said they don't post as much for similar reasons. Kind of have to take them at their word.


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## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

I've been here for quite a while. I'm just not a big success. There are many, many people who no longer come to the café. Not sure what their various reasons are. I miss quite a few of them and sometimes run into them elsewhere.

It is sad. I know that many of them continue to write, and maybe some are just too busy. There have always been problems with people getting bad reviews, and I think a lot of the old excitement has disappeared. I wish some people would return. I can't think of anyone who I was glad to see disappear. Maybe that should be whom (not sure).

I'm sure jealousy was a large part of why some felt they were attacked, and that is sad because now we've all lost their input. This is the only place I meet writers at the minute so don't want to lose any more.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

KL_Phelps said:


> I will say the boards don't seem as supportive as they did only a few months ago. We should be celebrating others success not resenting it


I've noticed this as well.

I've always dipped in and out here because I tend to do that with forums anyway, but I've learned so much from the writers here, especially Elle, Russell, SM Reine, Hugh and many others. It's a shame that some people are letting the green eyed monster take over. I decided to stop sharing my sales numbers a while ago. It's not a risk I'm willing to take anymore.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Don't you know that it's all luck and your hard work has nothing to do with it?

I dropped out of RWA very shortly after my first book hit lists for a reason, too.  I came to understand why none of the bestsellers in my area were active in the local chapter within a couple of months--and we had some really big names, too.

But that didn't last 'cuz I got orphaned and after going back for at least 2 additional printruns with my first book, distribution broke with my second (something my imprint is famous for) and collected orders for less than half of net for the second book.  That combined with me getting bulldozed into letting the marketing department write what they thought was good cover copy pretty much slaughtered me.  (The first cover copy, which I wrote, kicked backside.)  I bet the people who hated me thought that was luck, too, and not stunning incompetence!


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## Dor North (Mar 24, 2014)

Maybe they're not here because their yachts don't get Wi-fi  


Speaking as a reader, I was aware of folks like Hugh Howey and Courtney Milan before I became a regular reader of this board. Some of the names in your list I'm guessing at who you mean - if Bella is Bella Forest then yes, I've heard of her but not from here, I've seen her books on the Amazon bestsellers list and remembered her because the cynicism of the titling and the nom de plume impressed me. My first reaction is that you may be overthinking this matter. My second reaction is the reviewers are probably right - reviewers are always right unless they can be objectively shown not to be. 

But, I can understand the jealousy. I, for instance, hate every single one of you with a passion which burns like the fire of a thousand suns. When it happens to me (I'm assuming it hasn't already - I am actually too lazy to upload to Amazon and get the book on Goodreads, but I'm also too lazy to care about reviews) I will encourage people to knock themselves out. If you're using the internet to hate on me, you're not out dealing drugs or stabbing people. 

Should I accidentally give any advice or encouragement to anybody ("Don't be too lazy to upload to Amazon and your sales figures may number double digits") it will be on the same terms it always is: because *I* wanted to and had the time to do so.

Most people in this world have never heard of the Kboards and don't make the distinction between self and trade pubbed books. 

Think of it this way, the more copies you sell, the more chance you have of finding somebody who *really* hates your book. And remember, if you're doing really well and getting loads of 5* reviews, people who don't like it are likely to be more harsh. If I read a book which has got nothing but 5 star reviews saying how profound it is, and how wonderful the characters are and then I don't like it, I'm going to give it a harsher review because my score is effected by my expectations of the book. In fact, I have done.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> It's envy, pure and simple.


No question.

Being visibly, verifiably, identifiably successful (and without detracting from anything or anyone above, perhaps _especially_ being young and successful), when others are struggling and not being successful, gives rise to envy in the form of hostility and resentment.

I think the only safe, long-term way around it for those wanting to participate here, and speak freely, is to have no visible connection between their forum posts and their books. That's why I keep my books - which are written under a pen-name anyway - _out_ of my sig.

I'm here to chat, to read, and to learn, and I can do all that _without_ people here seeing my books.

I've seen a couple of departing "successful members" announcing that if they ever return, it will be pseudonymously. It's a shame, but I understand their perspective _completely_. I think they're right.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> Simply a function of natural attrition. After a while, you've heard everything and said everything, and judge your time better spent. You move on. All communities are cyclical like this. Nothing else to it.


Each time someone brings brings this topic up, someone always comes in and says "it's cyclical, yada yada yada". Completely ignoring the fact that the people broaching said topic are usually speaking from 'insider' knowledge (read: they've talked to the people that have left). I know I have when I've mentioned the exodus in recent months. But, hey, believe what you want. Keep on chooglin'.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm not sure if the reason folks leave is solely due to negative things happening, or more of a "got to selling, must write more, no time" situation. Probably a combination, but I believe whatever reason they give for moving on.

It's a shame that all our old favorites aren't posting much, if at all anymore. This board has been a big part of my journey towards self-publishing, and I appreciate all the posts that made it seem to be a real opportunity and not some impossible dream.

To me, the WC is becoming too much of a beginning writers' board. Every day, I see more and more basic questions being asked -- and the same ones over and over, showing that people aren't reading the forum, but simply looking for an easier answer than they'd get with a web search, or the gods help us, by reading writing books and practicing.

I'm no big deal here, never have been.    LOL No one will likely notice when I've moved on, and that's fine. I won't be posting a goodbye cruel world post announcing my departure. But it's coming soon, I feel. I just wish I knew where all the "old timers" had gone, so I could follow them to that much better forum in the sky.


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## Donna Alam (Mar 6, 2014)

Sour grapes and jealousy, plain and simple. Every now and I again I'm reminded that people are crappy. This would be one of those times. I would never have discovered kboards were it not for one of those successful indie types. She directed me here citing this as a place of support. Why would anyone want to help in the face of such treatment?  

Keyboard warriors make me so mad.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> To me, the WC is becoming too much of a beginning writers' board. Every day, I see more and more basic questions being asked -- and the same ones over and over, showing that people aren't reading the forum, but simply looking for an easier answer than they'd get with a web search, or the gods help us, by reading writing books and practicing.


To me, WC always was a beginning writer's board. Those about to hit the publish button. THAT is when the questions and doubts happen.
Yes, learning from the big guns is nice, but we all know that "do what I do or perish" is a silly thing to say, given the sheer number of variables that shape a writer's life and means.

Looking up previous threads and things found elsewhere is fine, but not when you want a discussion of what is happening RIGHT NOW, not when a thread was posted last year.
The industry changes every day. "Should I go into Select" changes every time Amazon has a production meeting. I think this thread does a disservice to Kboards and the admins' hard work and it denigrates the interesting bunch of "newbies" that have been contributing some interesting stuff.

Yes, we see the same questions over and over. That happens when you get new members. I asked those questions, too, when I got here.
But those threads then go on to discuss experiences and engage conversation that doesn't require the input of those who sell a thousands books a day. The majority of writers here are working on how to get ten sales a day and arranging a press conference in Oslo just isn't part of that.

I understand the OP's post but I don't get the point of it. Sounds like someone just came over to my house and says "Well, your garden sucks. Bye now."
Or did I miss a suggestion for a solution?


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

Russell:

I sure hope you don't stop posting.  Like one of the other respondents, I read your posts with great admiration and gratitude.  I'm a newbie down here toiling away in obscurity and find what you have to say inspiring and instructive.  

Like some of the others said, this should be a place where we build each other up and learn from each others successes and failures.

If I were to be completely honest, I would say I'm very jealous of your success, but I don't resent it or you because of it.  You work extremely hard at your craft and you deserve what you've earned.  It inspires me to work even harder.  

Ignore the naysayers.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

Quiss said:


> Looking up previous threads and things found elsewhere is fine, but not when you want a discussion of what is happening RIGHT NOW, not when a thread was posted last year.
> The industry changes every day. "Should I go into Select" changes every time Amazon has a production meeting. I think this thread does a disservice to Kboards and the admins' hard work and it denigrates the interesting bunch of "newbies" that have been contributing some interesting stuff.


I think brushing things under the rug is a greater disservice. The others just said screw it and left. Russell is a pretty big gun and I think this thread can be a nice warning to newbs that not everything is puppy dog smiles and unicorn farts here. Not anymore. Here there be monsters, if you will.

But don't worry, soon there will be a post that says "had complaints, locking for discussion" any minute now. And then we can all go back to happy fun times.


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## 58907 (Apr 3, 2012)

EelKat,

I'll never understand how people can find the time to bicker back and forth(I've found letting the person have the last word helps me to move on) *AND* message you. Who has the time for all of that?
I guess they do... 

I still find this forum useful, but I'm a newbie. Re-reading "how I do it" threads from the major sellers keeps me focused and motivated.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

I just want to chip in to say that I know it's frustrating when new members ask easy questions, but search functions are notoriously tricky beasts. I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt, because that is conducive to a supportive tone. 

After reading this thread, I'm going to try harder to answer questions for new writers, because it was only through lurking on here that I learnt anything. Plus, I've had the experience of being shouted down as a very new member (on another forum) who said something naive and misjudged a situation. It almost made me quit publishing my book (this was before I'd published my first book) which would have been the biggest mistake of my life. I don't want that to happen to a fellow writer just because they are the hundredth person to ask about KDP Select (random example).


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## fallswriter (Sep 11, 2012)

I've noticed the trend more and more as a very occasional thread replier but mostly a lurker. Some things that may cut down on retribution might be to take the books out of the signature line. I know that's counter to what the message board is for and hurts to not share your progress and successes. With the books in signature lines, all they have to do is click on the cover and submit a hurtful review in a matter of minutes.  But if you make it just a little harder for people to find your books to down vote or give negative reviews, then maybe that one extra step to find you will slow down some of the retribution.

Something that hasn't really been said is that I'm not so sure all of it comes from KB'ers. I think we all assume the message board is private to just us, but it's completely public. I don't blame everything on outsiders, but I do think that there's a good chance that outside influences, possibly from other writer boards, or influential reviewers could easily target KB authors. Perhaps they enjoy watching the successful indie authors leave KB WC because in the long run, that's what hurts us the most - not hearing or learning from their experiences. Perhaps they know that KB is one of the major hubs for indie authors, and making that place a less than desirable resource fulfills someone else's purposes. Okay, I'm getting too conspiracy theory here. 

I am going out on a limb to say that I don't think all the blame can be laid at KB WC participants' feet. The only way to ensure that it didn't come from outside sources would be to make the board private. And doing that would be an even bigger change. Russell - I'm sorry you have experienced this, and I wish it didn't happen.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Russell, you're a brave guy to poke the hornets nest like this and risk a flood of negative reviews.

*slow clap*

I came here after KBs... rocky past...? But most of what I've seen is overwhelmingly positive, save for the occasional heated debate. But if you can't stand the heat, blah, blah, blah. I do wish I could have been here when these big names frequented though. Honestly, I can't imagine this place being _any_ nicer. In fact, I'd say it's _too_ nice, and there should be more people like Julie, John, Cin, and Val. (Not that they aren't nice, their awesome. They just don't pull any punches, and people really need that.) KB, to me, is so nice I feel out of place because I'm not super optimistic or composed of rainbows and sunshine lol.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

Sheila_Guthrie said:


> To me, the WC is becoming too much of a beginning writers' board. Every day, I see more and more basic questions being asked -- and the same ones over and over, showing that people aren't reading the forum, but simply looking for an easier answer than they'd get with a web search, or the gods help us, by reading writing books and practicing.


I agree. As a person new to self-publishing, I've done extensive research in preparation for my debut. I don't come to this board expecting authors to give me all the answers in a thread.



fallswriter said:


> Some things that may cut down on retribution might be to take the books out of the signature line.


I plan to strip my sig line and then go into lurk immediately after I start publishing in June.


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## Edward W. Robertson (May 18, 2010)

So that's where Amanda Hocking went!


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

A book a month?! Is that humanly possible? Wow! *Applause*

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not a huge success, but I've noticed that there is retaliation and negativity on these boards. It's easier to be anonymous. I didn't understand that at first, but that's where I'm at now. I wish we could all be real, but this is the internet.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I'll go ahead and give you the straight scoop. A fellow author alerted me to this thread. I never come to WC anymore, but not for the reasons you surmised here.
> 
> 1. I'm not too busy to participate in WC. I'm actively searching for another similar forum that's private. I'm in the process of taking care of that. I miss having a water cooler to chat around and share info around.
> 2. I will always have more to learn. This industry changes too much to ever think I have a handle on things. Plus there are plenty of other more creative people out there than me I can learn from regarding promotional efforts, reader-engagement, formatting, etc.
> ...


Huh. Okay, so much for alternate theories! Thanks for stopping by Elle. Guess the good thing about being an unsuccessful author (like me, for now) is that I can condescend with impunity. Bookbub is NOT a font, ya dumb hillbilly! And Paperwhite is not a Createspace interior, duuuh, go back to Poughkeepsie.  Kidding, no negativity out of this guy... not much, anyway.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I am not nearly as successful as others mentioned here, but I too left because of bad reviews. I stopped posting and the bad reviews stopped. Just to see, I took the free books out of my signature and posted a few times this week to test the waters. No new hits, but the jury is still out.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> 1. I'm not too busy to participate in WC. I'm actively searching for another similar forum that's private. I'm in the process of taking care of that. I miss having a water cooler to chat around and share info around.


From a purely selfish POV, I hate, hate, HATE this idea. I get an image of myself standing in a cold, pouring rain outside of a cheerful bistro, whilst my "betters" dine on a sumptuous feast. Poor me.  
But having seen many of the attacks on successful KBers offering sound advice or just offering inspiring (to most) "This was my journey" posts, I totally get it. Generosity of spirit has been slapped in the face too many times, and the mods (whom I believe do heroic battle against the most blatant attacks) can't be everywhere, especially when the attacks are taken to AMZ reviews. I hope you all do find a safe place to hangout and debrief and share ideas with each other. Guard yourselves and what you have built. You'd be stupid not to.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

> What I DO have a problem with is jealous authors coming after me with fake reviews and down-voting of my good reviews out of spite,


Wow, this is just sad. I'm sorry that there are small people out there that resent it when other people -- who work hard -- are successful. Yeah, there's some luck to this game, but working hard can help you make your own luck.

It's too bad we will lose some collective wisdom because of this treatment.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

I, for one, am thankful for the advice from authors on this board. Without it, I would be unmoored. But here I am, three months later, and my book is about to go into editing. I would never have gotten this far without the perspectives I gained from this board. So for that, Mr. Blake, I thank you and the others: Vaalingrade, Joe Nobody, Darren Wearmouth, Violarivard, and many many more.

But its the nature of the internet...anonymity makes people brave, and seeing the success of others makes people jealous. And some people can't handle criticism, though they are really, really good at giving it.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Russ,

I'm really, really sorry to hear that.

Personally speaking i've valued your contributions hugely, and your no-nonsense tell it as it is approach to advice.

Unfortunately there is always an element of people who don't want to see reality, they are simply looking for other people to agree with the opinion or view they already hold. When you refuse to play the 'yes man' game they see that as some sort of personal attack against them and you open yourself up to reprisals. It's a shame that's the way it is but some people take criticism of any form very badly, it's debatable if these people can really survive in the court of public opinion that being a published person brings but that's a side issue.

What i will say is:

I'm really thankful that you have chosen to give up your time to give us the benefit of your experience, speaking as a fellow fledgeling author on boards that are principally dominated by romance/erotica and other authors there is very little info that relates directly to our genre that I can leverage as advice that will work. The advice and contributions have given have given me decent confidence that despite thrillers being second fiddle to the juggernaut of romance it's possible to still carve out a decent living in the genre. I think your books, production values and business planning are all top draw, and your success rightly reflects the sheer level of hard work you put in to get your success. 

Unfortunately what a lot of people don't realise is how much work you put in to get there and so there is always the envy factor. Everyone wants to believe they write great literature (or why would we do it) and that if they don't succeed it's down to bad luck etc. When the reality is the big six have made fortunes turning out mediocre literature for years and simply marketing it very well (lets not even get started on the Patterson juggernaut novel factory).

Given you have now reached a successful level from starting out where we all started, I think it's admirable you still chose to take time out of your no doubt busy schedule to give us all the free benefit of your experience. Given how much value that information contains and you could easily peddle it as a book in itself (which many much less successful writers do) we should all be grateful you still 'pay it forward' to help us fledglings out of the nest).

It's a sad reflection on human nature that you should pay any sort of cost for that generosity of your time.

9 times out of ten i find myself biting my tongue on many threads, if it's a choice between being the lone voice of dissent versus having to lie to someone that will do them no benefit i'd rather not post. I don't see the point in that somehow because if you are asking for opinions that merely affirm your own then why are you asking for advice? if you ask for advice on a cover that is clearly amateur and all anyone does it tell you how talented you are and then your book bombs what have you gained?

So, I think the boards NEED the Russell's of the world to tell it how it is. It might not always be palatable or what we want to hear but sometimes we need tough love.

Personally i think the guys who can take Russell's approach and distance themselves as publisher from the art of their work are the ones best placed to do well commercially. Publishing is still a business even if writing is considered an art.

I certainly understand your reticence - I think if I had worked hard to build my position then had people do that simply out of badness then I would think 'why am i even bothering to give up my time to help people? it's time not spent writing or engaging with your fans.' so i understand entirely.

If you choose not to contribute we will all be the poorer for it, but I wish you all the best whatever you choose, I can personally say I've learned a lot from the forums and try and contribute wherever i can (even if it's tongue in cheek), but I think if i was in your position i'd also question my involvement.


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## Chrisbwritin (Jan 28, 2014)

This is super-disturbing to me and the concept so alien (that a person would do that to another person out of jealousy, especially when they're trying to help) that I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. I'll be honest, the first time I read this I was like, "No way that can be true. It's got to be a coincidence." But with Elle coming in and concurring, it's hard to pass off as paranoia. I'm just... >.<  gah, feeling oily just thinking about it. 

I DO think that for every arsehole who does that, there are 20 people who DON'T, and still others who also contribute to the success of those authors (by buying their books and NOT posting negative reviews). I'm seriously bummed that we don't have the benefit of having them around anymore to get nuggets of wisdom and shots of hope from when we hear their stories. It's all because of some bad apples. This is why we can't have nice things.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

New rules:
1) Don't feed the trolls, they never get full
2) Kind words and good advice of an encouraging crowd can raise the noise level to the point that the detractors can't be heard
3) Show appreciation for every enouraging thing -- these people aren't doing this for the money (talking on these boards) -- many found success while being a part of this board, and feel a sense of camraderie, and naturally want to celebrate their successes.

Now, off to find that contract I have with the internet that makes my word into law...


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

"I've arrived at the same reluctant conclusion that some, or many, of them have. Giving back shouldn't carry a high price, and yet, well, there you have it.

Camelot never seems to last forever. A shame."

When you're paying too high of a price trying to be helpful--it's time to stop paying.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

ellecasey said:


> I'll go ahead and give you the straight scoop. A fellow author alerted me to this thread. I never come to WC anymore, but not for the reasons you surmised here.
> 
> 1. I'm not too busy to participate in WC. I'm actively searching for another similar forum that's private. I'm in the process of taking care of that. I miss having a water cooler to chat around and share info around.
> 2. I will always have more to learn. This industry changes too much to ever think I have a handle on things. Plus there are plenty of other more creative people out there than me I can learn from regarding promotional efforts, reader-engagement, formatting, etc.
> ...


Miss ya, Elle.


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## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

ellecasey said:


> 1. I'm not too busy to participate in WC. I'm actively searching for another similar forum that's private. I'm in the process of taking care of that. I miss having a water cooler to chat around and share info around.


Is it totally uncouth if I beg you to take me with? 

But on a serious note, the exodus from the boards of certain authors saddens me. I will never understand anyone who thinks that the action of tearing someone else down somehow builds them up. I will never understand how someone can think that a fitting reward for the kindness of others is to go and create a blog post that trashes that person's reputation.

There was something good and shining here that is now tarnished.

Just speaking personally, my participation here has been limited because of time constraints but I have rejoiced with each one of you that has posted a milestone, agonized with you when you couldn't find the words or when life treated you cruelly. Whether I spend much time here in future or not, that will not change.

Uncouth or not, I would love to be a part of the kind of group that can be supportive of each other even when there is a disagreement about methods or results or whatever. Maybe WC can become that again, maybe not.

Russell, you are a plain talking, lay it on the line kind of dude, thanks for that.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> I never come to WC anymore... I loved it here, but it just became too much of a risk to stay.


Dang you, Elle. We miss you.

Let's not forget about the awesome Mimi Strong. I miss her witty, fun posts. And there is a bunch of other not mentioned here I don't see anymore. /sadface

Certain people left. Yes. Does it suck? Yes. But here is the fun thing about KB, you get to see people make it and sometimes they even make it big. And if they do, they will typically hang out for a while and bestow us with their knowledge. We bask in their mighty light and soak in their teachings. But when these shining bulbs suddenly go out, it's shocking, it not as bright here, what happened!? But wait, there is a new dim bulb and it's growing in brightness each day.

I see a few KB stars right now increasing their lumens everyday. It will be fun to see their journey and we should be grateful and gracious when they are kind enough to show us their journey.


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

I've learned so much from the successful writers on KB, I can't begin to quantify it. 

I've been hanging out at the WC for a couple of years now. Long enough, that I've read more of these sad goodbyes than I've wanted to. So many great names, Elle, Hugh, Bella, Joe, Courtney, SM Reine, Crane... And now Russell.  

I am terribly sorry to see you go, Russell, and I thank you for all your great posts here. They have challenged and inspired me. (I will be in line to buy your Cussler collaboration.)

There seems to be no cure for anonymous active malice on the internet, and it is small comfort to know it harms its host more than it does its victims.


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## Kathy Clark Author (Dec 18, 2012)

What Blake says seems like a fit to what I sense and I've not seen.  My posts and interaction with the boards is way down as well.

If he is right then I'm following one of the today's best philosopher, poet, song writer's lead, Jimmy Buffett, 

"If The Phone Doesn't Ring It's Me" 

Enough said, back to writing as my reviews are at an all time statistically...mum.


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## williamvw (Mar 12, 2012)

This is the saddest thing I've seen all month. I don't post much, but I'm on Kboards almost every day. The "super-posts" from SM, Elle, Russell, and many others have been inspirational and informative beyond description. They have literally helped to shape my life direction. Someone out there worked their butt off and is now making six or seven figures a month? Hell, yeah, that's AWESOME. That takes nothing away from me and only stokes the fire and gets me out of bed in the morning. If everybody shuts up, if the flowing stories of success dry into dust, then how will anyone tomorrow be able to know that it wasn't all just a fluke? I don't want my son to think about becoming an indie and say, "Well, obviously, that was only a thing back in 2010-2013. Nobody talks about being able to do it anymore, so I guess it can't be done."

I don't understand trolls and haters. Such a terrible, pointless waste. Imagine being able to rub elbows with the greats of history and learn the secrets to their greatness. Would you sit next to Lincoln and criticize his gawky looks? Would you sit next to Da Vinci and slam on why he didn't just focus on one thing and stop wasting time sketching stuff that would never work, because all that did was show everyone else how to waste time?

I don't know that I NEED the wisdom and inspiration of these successful indies to follow my own path, but hearing from them has been so beneficial... It makes following my ambitions so much more fun... I would plead for them to stay, only I couldn't ask them to harm their careers by doing so.

I guess there's nothing I could ask or say other than "thank you for everything you've given here." It has meant the world to me, and I still refer back to those posts regularly. I will try to follow you as best I can. Meanwhile, for those who have the resolve to stay and continue to offer their generous wisdom, thanks to you, too. I and many others still need your words. We appreciate you risking slings and arrows for your honesty every day.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> I've been hanging out at the WC for a couple of years now. Long enough, that I've read more of these sad goodbyes than I've wanted to. So many great names, Elle, Hugh, Bella, Joe, Courtney, SM Reine, Crane... And now Russell.


Thanks for remembering me, EC.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Robert J. Crane said:


> Thanks for remembering me, EC.


You're another one I miss. SM, not so much. Every one of her posts made me feel like I had to duck. Oh, wait, she still posts here. Crap. I take it back.


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## 60911 (Jun 13, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> You're another one I miss. SM, not so much. Every one of her posts made me feel like I had to duck. Oh, wait, she still posts here. Crap. I take it back.


She has thicker skin and less sanity than I do. Or possibly vice versa, depending on the day.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

fallswriter said:


> ...I'm not so sure all of it comes from KB'ers. I think we all assume the message board is private to just us, but it's completely public. I don't blame everything on outsiders, but I do think that there's a good chance that outside influences, possibly from other writer boards, or influential reviewers could easily target KB authors. Perhaps they enjoy watching the successful indie authors leave KB WC because in the long run, that's what hurts us the most - not hearing or learning from their experiences. Perhaps they know that KB is one of the major hubs for indie authors, and making that place a less than desirable resource fulfills someone else's purposes.


This.


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## 54706 (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, I hope you all know I'm just an email away if you need me. And I'm still around on FB and all that. Absent but not dead.


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

When I joined fifteen months ago, people were missing Amanda Hocking, David Dalglish and modwitch. So the departure of superstars isn't new. A lot of people have left and a lot of people have joined. Are the super-successful disproportionately likely to leave? Maybe. But I'm also seeing a lot of non-superstars who don't hang out here as frequently. That tells me that forces other than superstar envy is at play. Maybe you just learn stuff and move on. Natural cycle and all that. I hope.

That said, the content of the boards do feel different. I'm not seeing nearly as many "milestone" threads or "marketing experiments" or "this is how I did it". And a lot of people have stripped their signatures. If that's because people are afraid of sniping, that's a big loss.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

I wouldn't mind the idea of the superstars moving on for almost any reason. People get busy and have to prioritize their time. Sometimes, life interferes. Or even if they move on because they've simply outgrown the board, that's fine, too. 

But I hate with a fiery passion that anyone might move on because they feel unsafe by contributing here.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> There seems to be no cure for anonymous active malice on the internet, and it is small comfort to know it harms its host more than it does its victims.


I think that's the heart of it. If you're high-profile in any public forum online and you're a very successful person, you'll attract envy. And because anonymity is so easy online, people can and will act on their envy in a way they might not IRL. I don't think there's any way around it. It's a bummer, but it's also fact of life in the modern age.

The sad truth of it is that we probably can't expect extremely successful authors to stay on KB indefinitely just in order to be helpful to others. Who wants to be generous and get hurt as a result? People might endure it for a while, out of a desire to give back, but not forever. I wish Russell weren't leaving, but I totally understand his choice. After a while, it must get exhausting -- and alarming -- to give and give and just get tagged for your troubles.

That said, I can imagine a KB -- the shining white KB on the hill, I guess -- in which there are a few very successful folks who enjoy the community enough that they feel they're not just _giving_, but also _receiving_ -- and moreover that what they receive by being part of this community is so valuable that they're willing to put up with the drive-bys and other forms of lashing out. Being a member of the community would be like having a kid, and the drive-bys would be the unfortunate fact that occasionally your kid barfs on you. Parenthood is so rewarding that people put up with the barf. (Or maybe they just don't really understand about kid-barf until it's too late. Okay, bad analogy.)

How do we make KB a community so rewarding that even very successful people might feel they get something back from it, instead of just giving? I'm not sure. Supportiveness and mutual celebration are probably part of it. Almost everyone appreciates those. The one-on-one connections that take place behind the scenes might be, too. But after that, it probably becomes individual. For me, humor is a big factor, and I really miss folks who used to make me smile all the time, such as George Berger and the artist formerly known as Dalya, and a few people who are still here but have scaled back quite a bit. Genuine intellectual stimulation is another biggie for me. I love being able to come here and have nuanced, thoughtful conversations with smart people. More nebulously, the sense of connection to others, which helps overcome the solitariness of being a writer. And swearing. I love all the swearing. FEEDBACK!!! 

Do the things that matter to me matter to others? I don't know. I really have no idea. But I do think that making the board a quality place is key to keeping very successful writers as active members. Again, people who feel they're just giving, not receiving, are not going to keep flying through the flak. By and large, we're not going to be giving these folks a lot of advice -- they know what they're doing. What we can give them is community. You don't have to be a big seller to help build a good community. You don't have to sell anything at all.

So, you know ... whatever you think would make KB a rewarding place to be, bring that into the community yourself. No one's going to change the nature of the internet, so that's really the only thing we can try to do to keep very successful writers here. And it might help keep the average folks and newbies happy here as well, which is just as important.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> ...I can imagine a KB -- the shining white KB on the hill, I guess -- in which there are a few very successful folks who enjoy the community enough that they feel they're not just _giving_, but also _receiving_ -- and moreover that what they receive by being part of this community is so valuable that they're willing to put up with the drive-bys and other forms of lashing out...
> 
> ...By and large, we're not going to be giving these folks a lot of advice -- they know what they're doing. What we can give them is community. You don't have to be a big seller to help build a good community. You don't have to sell anything at all.
> 
> So, you know ... whatever you think would make KB a rewarding place to be, bring that into the community yourself. No one's going to change the nature of the internet, so that's really the only thing we can try to do to keep very successful writers here. And it might help keep the average folks and newbies happy here as well, which is just as important.


<3


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

EelKat said:


> {{{hugs}}} You have more reason than most to not stay on KB. I'll never forget what happened to you here a few years ago. I've always been inspired by your strength through that ordeal and your ability to stay cheerful and not get sucked in when the wolves attacked. It's hard to stay strong under heavy fire like that, but you did and now they are gone and you're still here.


Thanks for the hugs, but I think you might be conflating me leaving with something that happened to someone else.

I left out of simple frustration over hyper-sensitive people who were stalking craft threads and shutting them down. They're gone now, and we can talk about craft all we want -- so for me, this group has gotten better.

Camille


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

I've gone anon because I was hit by a troll attack that I'm pretty sure originated from here.  I can't see any downsides to being anon, I can see plenty to making yourself a target.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I think that's the heart of it. If you're high-profile in any public forum online and you're a very successful person, you'll attract envy. And because anonymity is so easy online, people can and will act on their envy in a way they might not IRL. I don't think there's any way around it. It's a bummer, but it's also fact of life in the modern age.
> 
> The sad truth of it is that we probably can't expect extremely successful authors to stay on KB indefinitely just in order to be helpful to others. Who wants to be generous and get hurt as a result? People might endure it for a while, out of a desire to give back, but not forever. I wish Russell weren't leaving, but I totally understand his choice. After a while, it must get exhausting -- and alarming -- to give and give and just get tagged for your troubles.
> 
> ...


All of this!


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

There's an easy way to fix KB.

It's simple . . .

we kill the Batman.

Lol  sorry, I couldn't help myself.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

von19 said:


> There's an easy way to fix KB.
> 
> It's simple . . .
> 
> ...


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I hate to say it, because I really am not a big fish - in fact, I'm a guppy - but I have also felt a bit paranoid to post. I always wonder if something I say is going to hit somebody the wrong way, and then, boom - suddenly my one stars are at the top of the page, and stay there, and there suddenly are new one star reviews that show up. 

I, too, feel incredibly angry at those trolls that chased the big name writers off of this board. Those big names not only were helpful with their time, but they were really cool people. Really cool people. They were people who could be our friends in real life, they were so cool. Not at all stuck up and "too good." And sometimes their posts were highlarious, too. So, yeah - I miss them. But I suppose that the risk of the trolls attacking was just too much for them, so I don't blame them for leaving. 

And, for some reason, I miss Mimi most of all. I guess because, by the time that I started reading these boards, Elle and Holly and Hugh were already winding down in their posts, but Mimi used to post here quite a lot, until very recently. And she was one of the ones who really entertained.   Not to mention Ardin. He's been quite successful with his erotic serial, and I've been wanting to get into that game myself, but he's isn't around, either, to post his wisdom and good news. Dang it, we really are losing out because of the trolls - assuming that's the reason why those guys left. 

All I can is - Viola, have a thick skin. We need you here!!!!


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## David Adams (Jan 2, 2012)

While I don't post here as much as I could, I still read a lot. I don't really have much to say and most of what I do say gets said better by someone else. I guess I might have gotten some drive-by negative reviews. I don't know. Can't tell from the noise. It doesn't bother me.

I don't write because I crave fame, or approval. I write because I have to or I'll get eaten from the inside out by all the ideas.

This is part business, part therapy. And anyone can hit me up for anything. I don't care. I got a lot from KB and I'll give back even if it means a few negative reviews nobody will ever read or care about.

But yeah. I am not a big fan of saying "I miss the old days", but I miss the old days and I understand why someone would leave.


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## RTEdwins (Jan 16, 2014)

You know, I was just telling a blogger friend of mine how competitive and unfriendly the publishing/writing/blogging world can be. So many people take a "If I help you, then I'm hurting myself" perspective but after reading this thread I have to wonder if some of them don't take it to the "If I hurt them, it will get me ahead" level.

Why would a person give a bad review (on purpose) to a fellow writer because of a post on here?

I was originally going to say that perhaps the "million sellers" were just too busy promoting their books and traveling to get on here anymore (I know that Hugh has stopped blogging by a lot because of it, as have others), but after reading this perhaps you are right about the reviews. 

Even still, I will never withhold my experience or knowledge to those who are in need of it, no matter how punished I am by selfish, spiteful onlookers. I have found the less you care about what other people think of you, the happier you will be. As such, I've vowed to uplift those in need, and to acknowledge the achievements of my fellow writers without fear of reproach. 

Writing is a solitary endeavor most of the time, but it doesn't have to be cut-throat. Just because someone is reading your book, doesn't mean they will never read mine. If anything, it will hopefully make them enjoy reading more which will increase their chances of reading more books. Cultivate readership and authorship with love and care, and your career will blossom. Cut the throats of those around you and burn the bridges between us and your career will suffer.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

David Adams said:


> While I don't post here as much as I could, I still read a lot. I don't really have much to say and most of what I do say gets said better by someone else. I guess I might have gotten some drive-by negative reviews. I don't know. Can't tell from the noise. It doesn't bother me.
> 
> I don't write because I crave fame, or approval. I write because I have to or I'll get eaten from the inside out by all the ideas.
> 
> ...


David, I'm so glad you're still here to some degree, and I wish you'd post more. Yours is one of the voices I miss big time.


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## nikkarina (Jan 15, 2013)

Can I have Holly's full name? I've been meaning to look up her books but haven't seen her post on here in forever.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

As Russell's biggest fan on here,  I will miss what he has to say on a variety of topics.  I will also miss being able to tell up and coming authors to please read everything he has to say about publishing.
Since I do think the world of him, I will not do anything to jeopardize his career.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

nikkarina said:


> Can I have Holly's full name? I've been meaning to look up her books but haven't seen her post on here in forever.


H.M. Ward is her pen name


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

But I have to add again - while some successful authors have experienced attacks when they post, they have probably also gained fans at the same time. I had never heard of Hugh Howey until I started coming here and seeing his posts. It's the only reason that I bought Wool and started telling other people about it....

I think the 'biggies' should remember that there has probably been an equal or greater number of sales and good reviews based on their posting here - it's just harder to quantify. I keep hearing them say that they can't risk their career by posting here, but perhaps some of their posting has also helped to make their career........

That said, I go on the record saying that online bullying behavior is evil. And I mean that in the true sense of my belief that there is a real battle between good and evil going on in this world - bullying, sniping, seeking to hurt or threaten - these are all part of the wrong side to be on.....


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## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

It is sad, but fact that many authors got attacked.  
By fellow authors? I won't dismiss this.
BUT don't forget that here are many people reading - just hop to the main site and look up the numbers. If 400  members are online, there are often  twice as much guests watching.

It can be a good thing to have a pen name just for the boards...  ;-)

Covers also can be posted with placeholders for authors pub name on it, etc.

Gesendet mit Galaxy S3 durch Tapatalk


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Russell, you have been so inspirational and had such an impact on many of us here. Because of your posts, I have increased my output and I'm now producing two books a year and that has also impacted on my writing in a very positive way.

You also advised us on pricing and as a result, I increased the price to all my books, which resulted in better sales and of of curse bigger earnings for me.

I hope you won't stop posting here. We need writers like you, who are successful but never stop helping others. Who never stop flying the Indie flag and don't get stuck up because you might feel you're better than us. So, many thanks for your generosity and kindness.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm just a party of one... But I have to agree with a little of what Heather said. I've bought dozens and dozens of books from this board... I was already a Joe fan when I got here, but I've bought Russell's, Elle's, all of Hugh's (just bought Sand when someone posted a 'help push Hugh' thread last week).  Haven't had time to read most of them, but I got 'em! ...and without their posts, I would probably not have.

I've also bought dozens of newbs' books that I've seen posted here. Just off the top of my head:  Rock 'n Roll Heaven...just because we all worked on the blurb together... Viola's, just because I want to help her continue to rocket up in light of the obstacles she overcame in her personal life...CeeCee's, because she's just a positive ray of sunshine.... Brian Spangler's because wow...have you ever known a nicer guy? So many books, for so many reasons, but always to help one of our own (well... And I like to read, too.)

There must be hundreds of people like me who do the same.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

This thread has just scared the spit out of me.

I've been on KB for almost exactly a year and posted a lot in that time. Now I'm feeling kind of warned off.

I can not even begin to list how much I've learned here. Basically everything - How to work Amazon, Smashwords, Googleplay, a mailing list, beta readers, EVERYTHING!

I wouldnt be publishing now if I hadnt come here on the recommendation of another writer. Instead I would still be sending out enquiries, and be all the poorer for it.

Elle and SM Reine had a huge impact on the way I write and market. Their advice increased my production ten fold.

I dont know if I have had any negative reviews because of posting here, but I'm not sure it's a risk I want to take.... Really sad


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

David Adams said:


> But yeah. I am not a big fan of saying "I miss the old days", but I miss the old days and I understand why someone would leave.


Yep. I miss some people, but I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to interact with them as long as I did. Wish them well, and it's on to tomorrow. Still plenty of kids left to play with here.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Stella Wilkinson said:


> I dont know if I have had any negative reviews because of posting here, but I'm not sure it's a risk I want to take.... Really sad


But you also then miss out on the opportunity to find new readers and new good reviews right here among other writers/readers on the board! I'm sorry that I keep harping on that, but a lot of people seem to be missing that point. Being any kind of a public person (particularly a successful one) - whether it's on the internet or in real life - opens you up to criticism and negativity.

But it also opens you up to many wonderful things.

If everyone runs away from the bridge then the trolls have won....

edited to add: of course, I say this with basically nothing to lose since I haven't even published yet!


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

In 2011 everyone was posting their milestone sales and it was very exciting, especially watching Amanda Hocking's sales skyrocket. She kept saying she wasn't going to post any more sales figures, but we persuaded her to keep posting them, until she eventually did stop. Now it seems that the congrats that come with the good news announcements seem to attract other negative reactions. Very sad


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## AgnesWebb (Jan 13, 2013)

williamvw said:


> The "super-posts" from SM, Elle, Russell, and many others have been inspirational and informative beyond description.


I agree a hundred times over.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> In 2011 everyone was posting their milestone sales and it was very exciting, especially watching Amanda Hocking's sales skyrocket. She kept saying she wasn't going to post any more sales figures, but we persuaded her to keep posting them, until she eventually did stop. Now it seems that the congrats that come with the good news announcements seem to attract other negative reactions. Very sad


I wonder if the converse is true. If you post poor sales, do you get a couple sympathy 5 stars? Maybe if we're posting sales after I publish and I post lousy sales, and the next day a couple fives pop up, I'll come here and post a "Yipee! My tears got me good reviews!" Of course, that would probably prompt a couple rebound ones...hmm, gotta think about this.


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## redacted (Dec 16, 2013)

Someone told me Russell had signed off of Kboards, so I had to come back and see for myself.

All I can say is, "Russell, I beat you to it, man! I signed off last week! Hah!" (Coming back to say this doesn't count, right?)

Peace out, Kboards.


----------



## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I'm not sure he's actually saying that. He hints at it. But, being the eternal optometrist,  I'm going to assume he'll be back.


----------



## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

All this said, I suspect it's all the work of one or two people who want to poison the well.  A search for kboards on Google pulls up a high level of derangement.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

vmblack said:


> All this said, I suspect it's all the work of one or two people who want to poison the well. A search for kboards on Google pulls up a high level of derangement.


I've noticed that too.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

vmblack said:


> All this said, I suspect it's all the work of one or two people who want to poison the well. A search for kboards on Google pulls up a high level of derangement.


I agree. This is highly likely. It takes serious commitment to venom to do something like this repeatedly, and the motivation of mere jealousy or retribution for squabbles seems too puny to fuel that commitment.


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## RTEdwins (Jan 16, 2014)

I've actually posted a response thread to this one, if anyone is interested 
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,183315.0.html


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

In Australia we call this 'tall poppy syndrome'. Those that stand out from the pack get cut down.

On the flip side, I want to say: I am a newbie here, and have found that many people here are very nice. When I was looking for a new editor, I had a couple of negative replies but also a lot of helpful responses and PMs. Other times, I've had people go out of their way to say thanks for something, or wish me well, or visit my website and say hello. 
I think there are a lot of nice, positive people here, quite a few negative but well-intentioned people, and a small minority of real 'bad seeds' -- this last kind probably aren't even visible. 

And you never know -- maybe the next crop of superstars are posting here at the moment.


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## kwest (Mar 16, 2013)

Whether people leave or stay, the Kboards is still an invaluable tool for writers. I'm sorry many have left, for whatever reason (some of which may have nothing to do with review drive-bys or downvoting nastiness). I'm glad to have learned all I have from them and there is still much left for ALL of us to learn. Hope they will still come back time to time. One thing we shouldn't do is make assumptions for a person's motivations for leaving, especially when that information isn't available.


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## Thisiswhywecan&#039;thavenicethings (May 3, 2013)

vmblack said:


> All this said, I suspect it's all the work of one or two people who want to poison the well. A search for kboards on Google pulls up a high level of derangement.


This could be true but others have reported that giving in to whoever they are and leaving the board has stopped the problem. If you think about that logically, it presents a more interesting issue. Is it a case of out of sight out of mind? Why would not posting here stop the attackers from continuing the negative reviews and down voting?

There's another interesting pattern that I have noticed, most of those who have left did so right after getting some media attention or a run up one of the bestseller lists. That is also food for thought.

On one hand, it seems that the WC is what is actually under attack and that the best way to demoralize this community is to go after those most generous with their knowledge. And on the other, the authors themselves are the focus and the combination of publicity and availability make them vulnerable.



Heather Lori Harding said:


> But you also then miss out on the opportunity to find new readers and new good reviews right here among other writers/readers on the board! I'm sorry that I keep harping on that, but a lot of people seem to be missing that point. Being any kind of a public person (particularly a successful one) - whether it's on the internet or in real life - opens you up to criticism and negativity.
> 
> But it also opens you up to many wonderful things.
> 
> ...


You said in an earlier post that you had never heard of many of the bigger authors here until you came to the WC, that is the case with me as well and I am sure we are not alone. It feels like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater but there does not seem to be a better option. The bullies are winning. That is very sad.


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## RichardWolanski (Jan 20, 2014)

I've got no dog in this fight. 

I've become more of a lurker and less of a poster. 

I'm certainly not famous for any reason, including writing. I don't do it for the fame anyways. I'll parrot David in that I do it part therapy/part business. As long as I can afford editing, cover design and am allowed to click publish--I'll be writing books. Feel free to ignore me. I don't need the spotlight.  And like Brandis said, they'll always be new successes.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Might I offer an opinion.  Every one of you is right in a way.  
Also kindles have only been around about 5 years and affordable to the masses only the last 2 or 3 years.
That means this is still a fairly new site.  As more self publishers get popular, more people will discover this site.
More people always equals more drama.  
Anyway I will miss those leaving but I understand the whys.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

For whatever it's worth, every time I have joined a forum, people were already talking about how much the forum had changed for the worse since they first started, how all the cool people who used to post all the time had left (often because of some sort of forum drama), and how it was all a lot less fun now. 

By the time I was a veteran of each of those forums, there was a different group of people talking about how a different group of cool people had stopped posting and the forum was not as good as it used to be.

Regardless of the specifics of any given forum, this condition of repetitive flux seems to be pretty much a constant. This place is not what it was when the big names used to frequent it, no. But it's not necessarily less because of it, either, because a lot of great people are still here. Some of those people may even go on to become big names themselves, someday. And someday, many of them will decide to leave this forum, too.

The beat goes on, as they said in my day. (Although, I suppose they said it at night, too.)


----------



## Christopher Bunn (Oct 26, 2010)

What a melancholy topic. Myself, I've learned tons from some of the oldsters who used to post here regularly. I remember when Amanda used to comment here regularly. Lots of valuable advice from people like her, Nathan Lowell, Dalglish, Bob Mayer, and many others. But I've learned a lot from newer folks as well. While it's sad to see people take a lower profile due to trollish behavior, I hope that the pool of knowledge here keeps on growing. And that the trolls see the light (in a Tolkien sort of way).


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> Some of those people may even go on to become big names themselves, someday. And someday, many of them will decide to leave this forum, too.


Not me. When I hit it big (in, like, 2032), I'm going to erase my sig and avatar and come back as "BM." Who could resist an opportunity like that?


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2014)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> And you never know -- maybe the next crop of superstars are posting here at the moment.


Of course! There's always new superstars.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Heather Lori Harding said:


> If everyone runs away from the bridge then the trolls have won....


I'm afraid that's sometimes an inevitable outcome, online: people have a ready ability to damage others, and there's no way of holding them accountable for their malicious behavior (or even of identifying them). It's a distressing side-effect of some of the "internet freedoms" we all enjoy.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Not me. When I hit it big (in, like, 2032), I'm going to erase my sig and avatar and come back as "BM." Who could resist an opportunity like that?


Uh, Becca, where I'm from, BM means a type of "movement"


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

vmblack said:


> Don't you know that it's all luck and your hard work has nothing to do with it?


This is one of those things that hits my buttons. I mean come on, it's so crystal clear that all it takes is massive amounts of hard work and luck plays no factor at all. All you have to do is your your butt off and everything will fall into place. No matter what. One person works their butt off and makes pennies. Another person dashes something off and makes millions.

Sorry to quote you here, V, but this whole it's only hard work thing is some terrible BS and needs to die in a fire.

Saying it's just hard work spits on the thousands of other hard-working people who weren't lucky enough to make it. Just like saying it's just luck spits on the people who work their backsides off to make it. It's not _just_ luck; it's not _just_ hard work. It's both.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

When a community is primarily oriented towards newbies asking questions most people eventually tire of answering the same basic questions. If you want to hang out with Hugh and Joe go to Passive Voice that is more their scene nowadays.

As someone who grew up with 1970s British comedy I can't beleive you call this place WC and I can't help thinking that this thread is all about WC going down the toilet


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

That sucks. 

The first writer I noticed missing here was Dayla (aka Mimi Strong). I discovered her books because of KB and became a fan. Same with yours Russell and I'm sad that you're likely to go AWOL, especially since I'm looking forward to your dip into the romance waters. But I understand that you've got to do what works for you. 

I know a couple of NA writers who've given up all together because of online bullying.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Uh, Becca, where I'm from, BM means a type of "movement"


Uh-huh. Like I said, who could pass up an opportunity like that? 

(Charter member of the Sophomoric Sense of Humor Club, here.)


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Uh-huh. Like I said, who could pass up an opportunity like that?
> 
> (Charter member of the Sophomoric Sense of Humor Club, here.)


Leave it to vrabinec to poo-poo a perfectly serviceable joke.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

Hey, Becca, you and I can simply stop using our last names here, and really confuse people!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

beccaprice said:


> Hey, Becca, you and I can simply stop using our last names here, and really confuse people!


Now that sounds like a plan! 

Yeah, that vrab. He never lets anything pass.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Yeah, that vrab. He never lets anything pass.


Nope, just a steady stream of commentary.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

Dear famous people,

Please dont leave KB. I am but a humble noob and I would greatly benefit from your sage wisdom. Please allow me to pick your brains and receive advice and harsh criticism. At times like this, you have to ask yourself, WWCND? What Would Chuck Norris Do? Surely what's best for everyone. 

Thank You,
            A Noob.

(P.S., feel free to message me, I'll be your dirty little secret.)


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Such a sad and beautiful thread. I feel like I'm at a funeral for someone I had just started getting to know, and who passed way before their time, with all of the hugs, rememberences and stories. I hate when bullies win.


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks to cinisajoy for pointing out this thread. I'm a nobody that stopped posting regularly a month or so ago when I saw the trend heading into ugly territory. 

I only showed up to say that I'd appreciate it you guys found another forum (a private one would be great), please message me and let me know so I can come and ruin it for everyone. 

I used to really enjoy getting into discussions here. These days, I'd rather sit around and cut myself with a rusty plastic spoon.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Now that sounds like a plan!
> 
> Yeah, that vrab. He never lets anything pass.


I could go with my initials "BP" and be a greasy oil slick.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Singing Free Bird because it seems fitting.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

shelleyo1 said:


> There's attrition and the natural cycle of things, sure, but Russell isn't the only person saying this. At _least_ a couple of the people he named (maybe more, I don't remember) and some he hasn't have said they don't post as much for similar reasons. Kind of have to take them at their word.


This.


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## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> Yeah, that vrab. He never lets anything pass.


Careful. That kind of talk can make enemas.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Janet Michelson said:


> Careful. That kind of talk can make enemas.


True. Then the situation could turn explosive.


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## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> True. Then the situation could turn explosive.


That's just the type of thing we want to avoid: members defecating to other forums due to the explosive threads here.


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## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't tend to get all sentimental about these things because for me forums have always been drop in / drop out places, and I've never really been a super-active member of any. People tend to notice when the big guns stop posting, but every now and then I'll remember someone who used to post who's vanished without barely making a ripple. People move on, often once a place stops being useful to them personally. I still think this is a good forum and there are lots of interesting posts to read. After two years it's interesting that I seem to be able to answer more questions than ask them, but that's just the way it goes.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Janet Michelson said:


> That's just the type of thing we want to avoid: members defecating to other forums due to the explosive threads here.


Either that, or another pile... on.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I wish this were a new phenomena and there was something we could do about it. Unfortunately, it's been going on for *years*.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Janet Michelson said:


> That's just the type of thing we want to avoid: members defecating to other forums due to the explosive threads here.


That could seriously constipate things on _this_ board.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Andrew Ashling said:


> That could seriously constipate things on _this_ board.


Leading to serious irregularities.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

LeeBee said:


> Leading to serious irregularities.


Maybe we should all calm down and take a relaxative.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Andrew Ashling said:


> Maybe we should all calm down and take a relaxative.


I'm starting to have doubts about the moral fiber of this forum!


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm starting to have doubts about the moral fiber of this forum!


It's become something of a wasteland.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

It's this sort of crap that makes WC the butt of so many jokes and might dump us to number two in the eyes of more anal writers.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Monique said:


> It's this sort of crap that makes WC the butt of so many jokes and might dump us to number two in the eyes of more anal writers.


Urinalysis of the situation bowled me over. You're really a whizz at it.


----------



## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

Monique said:


> It's this sort of crap that makes WC the butt of so many jokes and might dump us to number two in the eyes of more anal writers.


And it's Monique for the win!

Seriously though, I'm in awe at the staggering amount of poop jokes that you managed to squeeze into that sentence.


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## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

I think it's time to pinch this one off.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Endi Webb said:


> I think it's time to pinch this one off.


Me, too. I'm wiped.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> I've learned so much from the successful writers on KB, I can't begin to quantify it.
> 
> I've been hanging out at the WC for a couple of years now. Long enough, that I've read more of these sad goodbyes than I've wanted to. So many great names, Elle, Hugh, Bella, Joe, Courtney, SM Reine, Crane... And now Russell.
> 
> ...


EC Shady, I think we joined about the same time. So yeah, I am just seconding your comment here


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Well, I hope you all know I'm just an email away if you need me. And I'm still around on FB and all that. Absent but not dead.


I once emailed Elle for a pep talk (was having a bad writer day back at the start when I thought it would be easy, you know, how we all do? ) She replied with a couple of pages of response which cheered me the hell up and gave me hope. I've been riding that positivity wave ever since.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> Me, too. I'm wiped.


*flush*


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

AngryGames said:


> Thanks to cinisajoy for pointing out this thread. I'm a nobody that stopped posting regularly a month or so ago when I saw the trend heading into ugly territory.
> 
> I only showed up to say that I'd appreciate it you guys found another forum (a private one would be great), please message me and let me know so I can come and ruin it for everyone.
> 
> I used to really enjoy getting into discussions here. These days, I'd rather sit around and cut myself with a rusty plastic spoon.


Well, that's too violent for my genre, but I hear you. I'm also a nobody who sort of backed away a couple of months ago due to an illness and death in the family, but when I tried to come back there were all those one-star food fights that kind of scared me a bit. I mean, if that happened to big names, what about little writers like I am? 

I wish we could get back to those indie publishing and marketing discussions we had last year on the WC. Those were civil and fun. Well, we're discussing those stuff on other smaller writer's forums now, but I do miss those glory days here. Maybe it's cyclical and it'll come back. Hope so. I have some books in the publishing pipeline this year. Might need to pick your brains on the howto and wheretofores of Amazon algols... if the Writer's Cafe is not deserted by the time I publish...


----------



## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks, Cinisajoy, for alerting me about this thread.

Sigh. Et tu, Blake?

What will happen to my 12-month KB Beefcake Stars Calendar now?   Flushed down the toilet. Gah.

*****
Let me add:

1) Elle Casey is the bestest friend, ever, to a writer. I've never known anyone so generous with her time off-KB.
2) I miss Crane. How I miss Crane. He'd warned me and I am sad to say he was right.
3) I still miss Dalglish and many of the others' humor and gifs. OMG, how I miss the Photoshop skillz.
4) Thank you to so many who had been so generous with sharing of sales #s, algos tracking, marketing techniques in the past. Truly appreciative.

Loved all your contributions. Thank you again.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Alex Owens said:


> And it's Monique for the win!
> 
> Seriously though, I'm in awe at the staggering amount of poop jokes that you managed to squeeze into that sentence.


<bows down to Monique>

I sure hope someone's keeping a log.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

The opening post is the reason most people left. Not me, really. I'm busy. I have friends in other places now. Friends who have the knowledge I need to improve and sell more, write better, etc. I've simply moved on.  I haven't stopped helping people, I just do it for the friends I have in my author groups instead of the general population. I run a book blog, I run a high traffic Facebook page, I run a private FB fan group, I run a street team, I have a twitter, I have a newsletter, I have a new book every month that needs promotion. Right now I have one book in editing that will release May 5th, a marketing plan that starts tomorrow, a new book I started today that will publish in June, two cover reveals coming up in a week and a half, and a tour going on for the book that released on March 31. I also have two major author groups that I participate in every day. Plus one more that I pop into a few times a week. I have a book signing in two weeks, before which I have to write 25K. 

So, yeah. This is the life of a full-time writer who wants to pay the bills every month. I have no time for BS. Maybe what I tell people won't help them sell better, but why waste my breath explaining it only to be attacked for trying to help when I can give this info to friends who take me seriously?

Aside from that, people here have never been interested in what I have to say because I am 100% pro marketing and I've never been quiet about it. This forum, for whatever reason, has always been hostile to people with innovative marketing plans.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2014)

JanneCO said:


> The opening post is the reason most people left. Not me, really. I'm busy. I have friends in other places now. Friends who have the knowledge I need to improve and sell more, write better, etc. I've simply moved on. I haven't stopped helping people, I just do it for the friends I have in my author groups instead of the general population. I run a book blog, I run a high traffic Facebook page, I run a private FB fan group, I run a street team, I have a twitter, I have a newsletter, I have a new book every month that needs promotion. Right now I have one book in editing that will release May 5th, a marketing plan that starts tomorrow, a new book I started today that will publish in June, two cover reveals coming up in a week and a half, and a tour going on for the book that released on March 31. I also have two major author groups that I participate in every day. Plus one more that I pop into a few times a week. I have a book signing in two weeks, before which I have to write 25K.
> 
> So, yeah. This is the life of a full-time writer who wants to pay the bills every month. I have no time for BS. Maybe what I tell people won't help them sell better, but why waste my breath explaining it only to be attacked for trying to help when I can give this info to friends who take me seriously?
> 
> Aside from that, people here have never been interested in what I have to say because I am 100% pro marketing and I've never been quiet about it. This forum, for whatever reason, has always been hostile to people with innovative marketing plans.


J A Huss, I'm TOTALLY interested in what you have to say, and I'm off to go check out your Twitter, Facebook, etc.


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## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

JanneCO said:


> The opening post is the reason most people left. Not me, really. I'm busy. I have friends in other places now. Friends who have the knowledge I need to improve and sell more, write better, etc. I've simply moved on. I haven't stopped helping people, I just do it for the friends I have in my author groups instead of the general population. I run a book blog, I run a high traffic Facebook page, I run a private FB fan group, I run a street team, I have a twitter, I have a newsletter, I have a new book every month that needs promotion. Right now I have one book in editing that will release May 5th, a marketing plan that starts tomorrow, a new book I started today that will publish in June, two cover reveals coming up in a week and a half, and a tour going on for the book that released on March 31. I also have two major author groups that I participate in every day. Plus one more that I pop into a few times a week. I have a book signing in two weeks, before which I have to write 25K.
> 
> So, yeah. This is the life of a full-time writer who wants to pay the bills every month. I have no time for BS. Maybe what I tell people won't help them sell better, but why waste my breath explaining it only to be attacked for trying to help when I can give this info to friends who take me seriously?
> 
> Aside from that, people here have never been interested in what I have to say because I am 100% pro marketing and I've never been quiet about it. This forum, for whatever reason, has always been hostile to people with innovative marketing plans.


Just wanted to say I bow down to your marketing prowess. (Loved Tragic, btw.) I see your efforts all the time on FB and I don't know how you do it all. You've branded yourself very well in a short amount of time.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Alex Owens said:


> Just wanted to say I bow down to your marketing prowess. (Loved Tragic, btw.) I see your efforts all the time on FB and I don't know how you do it all. You've branded yourself very well in a short amount of time.


I have a very big team of people helping me every single day!


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## Alex Owens (Mar 24, 2011)

Good for you! It's working too... I totally want a motorcycle every time I see a Shrike's Bikes post


----------



## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

You guys are so punny.  

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Nope (Jun 25, 2012)

.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

I'm with a lot of the others. There are some things about KB that I'll always come back for. New e-reader releases and such (paperwhite press conference was awesome), books and checking in on people I've been following their progress over the years. But all the other stuff, I'm pretty much done. Too many backhanded comments that skirt the line of being reportable. Pokes at authors because they write X which is obviously easy to sell. Down voting, bad reviews, and general bad attitudes. There are people on here that I know to fawn over an author and then proceed to trash them elsewhere. It's petty. 

The really funny part, I'd get it if, say, Hugh, came on here and strutted around like he owned the place but I really don't think I've seen a more humble author. This is someone who, in my opinion, has had the single greatest influence on publishing in our lifetime. The fact that he was even willing to come on here and talk to us peons was pretty freaking amazing. And yeah, I'm ticked. There were so many successful people on here with a wealth of knowledge in different areas and one by one they have left. So now, instead of advice from H.M. Ward or Hugh or Elle or Joe or Russell or one of the many others, we get the same regurgitated stuff from before. And by the way, these algorithm games have been going on for years. I see these threads over and over on here and trying to make a long-term career this way won't work. How do I know? Go look at who was big on here just 4-5 years ago and who is big now. It's called one hit wonder in the music world. 

Lastly, the biggest reason I don't post much on here is because my input really means nothing anymore. So what if I've got 8 full lengths that rank between 8-20k consistently or that my monthly income has not just gone up but doubled each month over the last 3 month and set to do close to that again next month. So what if I did editing for a number of years or been a reader forever. So what that I've been following the e-book revolution from the very start. I don't have the energy to shout over wrong advice and when I do, it's usually ignored. Meh. So instead of wasting thousands of words on here to people who really don't care to hear them, I'll just invest those words back into myself.  (And yes, the irony of this post is not lost on me...time I should have spend writing). 

The real kicker with all this, I was going post yesterday that it was my one year anniversary publishing but didn't. Something, a year ago, I was sure I would do just didn't seem as exciting to share. So yeah Russell, I'm totally with you. What a difference a year makes indeed.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Drew Smith said:


> Now, I need to learn how to get from the high five-figure sales income level to the stratosphere sales level and they are the ones who can give me the guidance I need. But they're gone. So I'm just trying to feel my way along the path.  I would give a lot to find this mystical private forum they have all apparently skittered off to like a rampaging horde of success.
> 
> That said, I stick around here hoping that I can give back to those following us along the path. But, because I'm not willing to claim our books, I'm not even sure why anyone would feel they should listen to my advice. It's a sad situation.


Same boat on both these points. Each month my sales increase and I'm starting to think more and more about where I need to go with this. I mean, I've got ideas and they've gotten me this far but there are some things I'd rather not have to trial and error on my own. Just sorta sucks. You get in that forum, shoot me a message. 

I suppose most don't care much about what I have to say since I don't list my books and have no plans to. Don't see what it matters really. If I say X is working for me and I've sold X, that should be enough right? I don't know. Maybe I'm just missing something in all this.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Drew Smith said:


> I'll slip you in the back door with the champagne delivery guys.


Woohoo! 



Drew Smith said:


> Well that's how I feel on the advice front, too. I mean I understand the urge that when someone suggests an approach and you want to check out their ranks to see how well their advice is working for them. With no books listed, they'll just have to take my word for it that an idea worked. But honestly I'm not miffed if my advice isn't of interest since the results can't be confirmed. I figure take it for what it's worth.


I get it and maybe it wouldn't irk me so much if I didn't look up ranks of "good advice" authors and know I'm selling more by quite a bit. Sometimes I think it's loudest bark on here. I'm sure some of my irritation comes from being an editor before and not having to justify my advice. There were some benefits to being the bossy editor.

I'm glad I posted though. Was really close to deleting it (something I do more and more recently). It's easy to forget that there are others out there just like me and it's nice to connect.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

FWIW, I'd love to see both of you stay on. Your posts are great. Who cares if you don't list your books? That doesn't matter.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Others have already summed up the reasons for leaving or lowering participation better than I could. But I'll add that I've grown away from KB, personally, because of my changing needs - not just the forum's changing tone. KB was my go-to place for answers during my first couple indie years. I came here to learn about all the most basic aspects of self-publishing and I still recommend this spot to writers wanting to learn how to self-publish.

But I'm in a different place now and the questions I have these days aren't the same as they were in 2011. My writing now makes up the bulk of my family's income, meaning it takes more of my time and leaves less for writing related discussion. So naturally I spend what time I do have in places where sales stats and marketing tips can be shared without risk of retaliation or fear of making anyone at a different stage of their career uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I don't feel KB is the best place for those discussions anymore. The WC has grown and that's brought inevitable changes.

I don't resent the repetitive nature of the forum at all. New members can't be expected to know how often their questions have already been asked and most aren't aware the site has a search function. I'm glad they have a place to get the answers they need, just as I had the same needs when I joined. I still lurk a bit and pop in with the occasional question or comment. I still find some topics helpful and enjoy the social aspect. I just don't have time for arguments or enough energy to be, as someone else said, the loudest barker. Add the negative undercurrent that's appeared lately in the form of blog posts and reviews, and I find myself thinking twice before every post, wondering when a careless word will come back to bite me. Obviously, that's not conducive to comfortable chatting.


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## GaryCecil (Jan 5, 2014)

Joliedupre said:


> Viola, no disrespect to people like Hugh or Russell, but you're a very exciting newbie I'm glad I got to experience. You're knocking on the big boy (and big girl) door, and it appears they're gonna have to open it.


Hugh did. He posted a tweet about her success. ! Maybe that's where some negative traffic came? Who knows!?!?


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

Dara England said:


> But I'm in a different place now and the questions I have these days aren't the same as they were in 2011. My writing now makes up the bulk of my family's income, meaning it takes more of my time and leaves less for writing related discussion. So naturally I spend what time I do have in places where sales stats and marketing tips can be shared without risk of retaliation or fear of making anyone at a different stage of their career uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I don't feel KB is the best place for those discussions anymore. The WC has grown and that's brought inevitable changes.


Dara - where are you having these discussions?


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

ellecasey said:


> Let's be clear about something I see coming up here and there. I have no problem with negative reviews. If someone reads my book and hates it, fine. Write a review giving your honest opinion. What I DO have a problem with is jealous authors coming after me with fake reviews and down-voting of my good reviews out of spite, which started happening way too much when I was on KB regularly. Since I've left, it's pretty much stopped. I could see this crap happening minutes after nasty comments showed up on KB. I loved it here, but it just became too much of a risk to stay.
> 
> I totally get where Russell is coming from. With all he's done to help and with his success, he set himself up with a giant target on his forehead for the trolls to come after. It's sad that they've been allowed to ruin a good thng.


I learned so much my first year from all of you. Very sad that this happened and hope that you find a safer water cooler to chat at. You are a tremendous talent and have a great experience to share with others.


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## Dor North (Mar 24, 2014)

I was debating about whether to post this here or in the Feelgood thread but as it's a tad dissenting I'll leave that one alone.

I am a book reviewer more than a writer. I have been the "victim" of the same sorts of nonsense mentioned in the OP of this thread. A one star review of a popular self-pubbed book and within 48 hours I had half a dozen downvotes on it and on every other 'zon review I'd posted. I suspect it came from the author's camp (him, family, ardent fans) because he also left me a "thanks for the review" message.

I've had people associated with the books I've disliked posting reviews referring to mine and explaining how I read the book wrong.

The culture associated with self-publishing is one of the daftest I've run into. Them VS Us! Teh Publishers are made of teh evulz! Self-pubbers only do it because everybody else rejected them! Down with the gatekeepers! Self-publishing is the world's slush pile! Amazon forever! Amazon are killing bookstores! Dead tree publishing is dead! Ebooks are going to die!

I exist on both sides of the writer/reviewer line and I keep those online identities separate although I don't make a secret of the fact I do both. I also exist on both sides of the self-pub/trade pub line, and I am much more precious about keeping those separate. Maybe because I straddle these lines, I feel it comes down to just doing your thing and letting others do theirs. The only action I took about the above was a ranty non-specific blog post explaining the problem with the idea I "read it wrong".

When I read things like:



> The bullies are winning.


I want to throw my hands in the air. I really feel there is that kind of culture around self-publishing, that if one gives a negative review it's because you're a troll, or a bully; or that you should give self-publishers a break because self-publishing is hard. All it takes is one person to use the B word, or use the term Gatekeepers, and I'm thinking "STGRB", "Whiny", "Entitled", "I have too much actual nonsense in my life to add to it".

So people go out and give you negative reviews because you've posted some stats here. Or because you've helped somebody. Or because you exist.

Yup, people are jerks. Jerks are not bullies. Jerks are not trolls.

Jerks are people with entitlement issues.

Bullies are people who systematically exploit the balance of power to harm and intimidate others.

Trolls are people who seek to inflame situations for the lulz.

In my eyes, a glut of 5* reviews doesn't mean a book is good, it means it's found its core audience. The bigger a book get, the further away from that core audience it gets and the more negative reviews roll in. Why is there always a backlash after something huge breaks? Because suddenly people who've never heard of it try it out and don't like it.

I'm sorry that people feel they have to stop doing something they enjoy because they are targeted. I do, however, feel the experiences related in it veer dangerously close to complaining about the existence of 1 star reviews. Whoever this, or those, person/peoples is/are leaving these reviews (and from your guys experiences it sounds like there's probably a core group responsible for it), they are only as important as you make them.

Maybe I'm struggling with this because the tl;dr version of this is going "When I am helpful people downvote my good reviews and write negative ones about my books. I'm so successful people hate me." It sounds kind of whiny plus: it happens. Happens to me and I'm nobody. Bring it on, biatches.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

Mark Dawson said:


> Dara - where are you having these discussions?


Various closed forums and groups, Mark. I chat more easily when I know who I'm talking to. There's times when I'm comfortable being open to the whole wide internet but it's not what I want every time I have a conversation. Particularly not with some of the stuff we've seen recently.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Dor_North said:


> So people go out and give you negative reviews because you've posted some stats here. Or because you've helped somebody. Or because you exist.
> 
> Yup, people are jerks. Jerks are not bullies. Jerks are not trolls.
> 
> ...


Systematically ensuring less visibility for an author in this game is very harmful. These people live off their royalties--it isn't a hobby, it's their livelihood. 
I dare say deliberately trying to damage another's income can be classed as bullying.


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## Dor North (Mar 24, 2014)

NAsh said:


> Systematically ensuring less visibility for an author in this game is very harmful. These people live off their royalties--it isn't a hobby, it's their livelihood.
> I dare say deliberately trying to damage another's income can be classed as bullying.


Is it ensuring less visibility though? The only practical difference the voting buttons makes to the way I buy books is if I'm reading the reviews on my Kindle Keyboard because it determines the order in which they appear - it means I have to scroll through more pages to get to the lower starred ones.

Does having a low average damage visibility? It doesn't for the way I find books - because I usually know what I'm looking for, I discover books through reviews. Am I the odd one out here?

As for authors' living off royalties ... we're all trying to live off something. What other people live on is neither my business nor my concern, least of all when I'm giving an opinion about a book.

Do people downvoting reviews, or writing one star ones, have the ability to damage an author's income? I don't feel like it does, but I'm only speaking from the position of how I buy books. I've had a quick look at some of Russell's books and the one star reviews are the usual mix of pointless (doesn't tell me anything beyond the reviewer thinks the book is rubbish), not-applicable (there's swearing! I don't like swearing!), and the helpful reviews I'll bear in mind when making my decision to buy.

It's like piracy - I don't think that damages income either. Somebody is either willing to pay for something or their not, and as long as you make it simple for them to part with their money they will.

And even if it was effective, deliberately trying to damage income is not bullying, it's industrial sabotage.

As you can probably tell, I have real problems reconciling how I live, earn money, buy books etc in the meatworld as opposed to the internet bubble where reviewers who write 1 star reviews are hateful, downvoting reviews can damage income, people live to target self-published authors, and mass rude-name shelving appears on GR.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

AngryGames said:


> These days, I'd rather sit around and cut myself with a rusty plastic spoon.


Rusty...plastic?

Wow, man. You're hardcore.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2014)

GaryCecil said:


> Hugh did. He posted a tweet about her success. ! Maybe that's where some negative traffic came? Who knows!?!?


Hugh is one of the nicest, most polite, and most humble mega successful authors I have ever encountered. If he mentioned Viola's success, I'm not at all surprised.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2014)

If anyone has a NEW ADULT AUTHORS group that they'd like to invite me to, send me a PM!    Love ya!


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Bethany B. said:


> Lastly, the biggest reason I don't post much on here is because my input really means nothing anymore. So what if I've got 8 full lengths that rank between 8-20k consistently or that my monthly income has not just gone up but doubled each month over the last 3 month and set to do close to that again next month. So what if I did editing for a number of years or been a reader forever. So what that I've been following the e-book revolution from the very start. I don't have the energy to shout over wrong advice and when I do, it's usually ignored. Meh. So instead of wasting thousands of words on here to people who really don't care to hear them, I'll just invest those words back into myself. (And yes, the irony of this post is not lost on me...time I should have spend writing).
> 
> The real kicker with all this, I was going post yesterday that it was my one year anniversary publishing but didn't. Something, a year ago, I was sure I would do just didn't seem as exciting to share. So yeah Russell, I'm totally with you. What a difference a year makes indeed.


Ya see, info like this is probably the most important... and actually the steps you took just before these events started to happen are even more so (for me at least). It's that mystical time when the curve starts to turn super positive. The definition of the real story in my eyes. The kinds of stories I like to read about. So, as one of many, I would ask you and those like Blake not to leave... maybe just alter your posts a bit so you aren't subjecting yourselves to attack (if that's possible).

Sincerely, 
A big fan of you all.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi,

I think this thread has been useful as people explore options on how to make KBoards and the Writers' Cafe a better place, and please believe we're reading it with interest to try to learn what we can do to improve things. And, of course, members can and do belong to many other forums--which actually, in the long run, brings a greater depth of knowledge back to KBoards. But promotion of a member's own forum should be done through their author services thread or their signature. Susanne, you have an author services thread for your forum here--you or one of your other members should bump it, and, of course, as you said, you have a link in your signature.

As for the discussions in this thread, I do see a lot of craft and marketing discussions here. I do miss the David Dalgleish photoshop pics... I'd be happy to post a pic here.

Thanks for understanding.

Betsy
KB Mod

_Edited to correct brain fart moment. Not to continue the poop jokes, or is flatulance considered part of the same genre? Julie?--Betsy_


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Bethany B. said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> I get it and maybe it wouldn't irk me so much if I didn't look up ranks of "good advice" authors and know I'm selling more by quite a bit. Sometimes I think it's loudest bark on here. I'm sure some of my irritation comes from being an editor before and not having to justify my advice. There were some benefits to being the bossy editor.
> 
> I'm glad I posted though. Was really close to deleting it (something I do more and more recently). It's easy to forget that there are others out there just like me and it's nice to connect.


The nature of online forums is that "loudest bark" tends to dominate. But that doesn't mean that plenty of people, including what I'm sure is a sizable number of lurkers too shy to comment, aren't reading and absorbing all the different viewpoints. Bethany, I know I'm not the only person here who is interested in hearing about what has worked for you. I'm sorry you've been made to feel that no one cares what you have to say.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think this thread has been useful as people explore options on how to make KBoards and the Writers' Cafe a better place, and please believe we're reading it with interest to try to learn what we can do to improve things. And, of course, members can and do belong to many other forums--which actually, in the long run, brings a greater depth of knowledge back to KBoards. But promotion of a member's own forum should be done through their author services thread or their signature. Susanne, you have an author services thread for your forum here--you or one of your other members should bump it, and, of course, as you said, you have a link in your signature.
> 
> ...


Oops, sorry Betsy. Didn't mean to, really. And yes it's now all under my face...


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think this thread has been useful as people explore options on how to make KBoards and the Writers' Cafe a better place, and please believe we're reading it with interest to try to learn what we can do to improve things.


Not much even the Great and Powerful Harvey can do to change human nature. If someone's bent on being a petty ass...


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Not much even the Great and Powerful Harvey can do to change human nature. If someone's bent on being a petty ass...


Authors tend to be a depressing lot, anyway. God forbid if you're an author who wakes up happy and with a smile on your face.    You'll get dissed for being a rainbow sprinkled pony.

Despite all the negative things that go on here, I'm very excited about my present and future as a self-published author, and kudos to everyone else who feels the same. Thanks to Russell, and to everyone else, who has provided excellent information here at WC.

Enjoy your weekend!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> Despite all the negative things that go on here, I'm very excited about my present and future as a self-published author, and kudos to everyone else who feels the same. Thanks to Russell, and to everyone else, who has provided excellent information here at WC.


Seconded. This is an exciting time to be a writer, and Kboards is still probably the best place to come if you want to know how to do it.


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## RTEdwins (Jan 16, 2014)

So many responses, and so much discussion about BM's since I left this thread yesterday.

I find it so intriguing that there are such varying perspectives about the WC. On one hand I can't blame the more experienced for moving on and joining more exclusive forums, but on the other I feel like they might be missing out on wonderful opportunities to have a large impact on the industry. 

Again and again, people here have listed how their words/advice might get mocked or ridiculed, but I believe they are forgetting a large piece of the data: the readers who don't comment. Just because you offer something of great value, and one or two people offer harsh or snide remarks, doesn't mean the people who didn't comment didn't take that advice to heart. 

Perhaps I'm just an outlier when it comes to this, but I believe that if you don't like the conversations, you should change them. Instead of being reactive to the jerks, and trolls, be proactive about promoting positive conversation. Part of the reason Hugh Howey is so highly regarded here was because he almost always tried to promote more positive conversation (regardless of the jerks and trolls). Perhaps he doesn't come here as much anymore, but that doesn't mean this place can't be as good if not better than it was when he was around all the time. There are opportunities galore for each of us to make this place worth coming to, but it begins with perspective.

Believe that its less than it once was (as the OP seemed to think) then that is what you will find and how you will contribute (less than you used to). Believe that there are wonderful opportunities to learn, teach, and cultivate positive relationships with fellow writers, and you will find just that. It is what you make it out to be, this is true with all things.

Personally, I come here because it stimulates new thoughts and conversations. I come here because there are people I can help and people who can help me. I come here because sometimes I'm lucky enough to rub shoulders with writers more experienced and better than myself, AND because there are writers who can learn from my example. All things are give and take, that's the yin and yang of life, and WC is no different. There is good in the bad and bad in the good and they are always in balance.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

RTEdwins said:


> So many responses, and so much discussion about BM's since I left this thread yesterday.
> 
> I find it so intriguing that there are such varying perspectives about the WC. On one hand I can't blame the more experienced for moving on and joining more exclusive forums, but on the other *I feel like they might be missing out on wonderful opportunities to have a large impact on the industry. *
> 
> ...


So much wisdom in this comment. I heartily agree that a forum takes on the tone that those who are active on it promote. We cannot control how people behave outside of the forum (with regard to nasty blog posts about this place and downvoting reviews and whatnot), but we have the ability to control how we treat one another in here. And we can make this place whatever we want it to be.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Nevermind. Removed post. I think we've discussed that before.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

When I first came here in 2010, Amanda Hocking had stopped posting already and Russel Blake would take another three years to begin posting (though I knew him from his many sarcastic tweet blasts and I already enjoyed his blog posts).

To quote Johnny Cash: "I've seen 'em come and go and I've seen them die, And long ago I stopped askin' why."

Bob Mayer, David Dalglish and a slew of others have stopped posting here. I didn't always agree with every post, but all the same I'm sorry I can't read them anymore.
So, there really is nothing new here per se. Of course, if people stop posting because their business is suffering as a result, that's a cause for worry. Other than that, it seems to be a natural phenomenon. People change, goals change or they just get tired of repeating the same stuff, clamens in deserto.

The WC attracts writers of all kinds. Those who see writing as an activity to generate money and want to become better at it. Those who just want to tell the stories they feel need to be told, and, almost as an afterthought, are trying to find readers for them.

Different approaches. Equally valid. There's no reason on earth why we can't live together, provided we respect each other's viewpoint. And if we keep remembering that a discussion implies arguments and counter arguments.
Those, on the other hand, who want a teaching position with only them talking and the students taking notes should consider organizing courses. It might even prove to be a profitable business.

Peace.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

L.L. Akers said:


> Nevermind. Removed post. I think we've discussed that before.


I'm guessing you were going to suggest we make the Writers' Cafe a private forum.  And yes, we did discuss that, but Betsy pointed out that it is really easy to join KBoards, because Harvey wants it that way. And that's not a bad thing. KBoards getting big doesn't have to work against us. We just have to always keep in mind that KBoards is PUBLIC. If we keep that in mind, we can benefit from the exposure, instead of suffering for it.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

A little perspective: since the time I started this forum in November 2007, there has been a thread every few months that laments how the forum has changed, how the old-timers have disappeared, and how the newer members are different. 

I think there is a natural churn to forums, and there are also some ebbs and flows in "tone" that occur in the boards, even though we on the moderation team work hard to coach or weed out people who are persistently negative or on the attack. Those are things that by and large we can control, and I think our moderation team is remarkably diligent about that. Over the past years, we often hear that KBoards is one of the friendliest and most supportive public forums out there... and that's something that makes me feel very good.

I also believe that (despite the impression one might get from reading this thread), the members of our community are overwhelmingly goodhearted, generous, and kind. My life experience is that people are that way in general, and in this forum we have been particularly blessed with good-natured, good-humored people who bring positive energy to our community.

On a different topic: Russell's OP is about the experience of members receiving one-star reviews or having poor reviews upvoted after posting here. I don't know why people do that, but I don't doubt the various reports about it. It's distressing, and there seems to be little that can be done about it. (A hope is that Amazon will figure out some way to identify the people who engage in that kind of abuse.) I can understand why some members seek out private boards to avoid that risk. 

There is probably a sensible reason-to-be for both small private boards and for larger public boards like KBoards. We'll keep on putting our energy into making KBoards as inviting and rewarding a place for you all as we possibly can.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Just want to say that Harvey and mods do a fabulous job.  This is one of the best forums I have been on.  The whole place not just the WC.    I will say that I really don't think you want a private forum.  That leads to more problems.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

cinisajoy said:


> Just want to say that Harvey and mods do a fabulous job. This is one of the best forums I have been on. The whole place not just the WC. I will say that I really don't think you want a private forum. That leads to more problems.


I agree, the mods here are the best I've ever seen. I know some people chafe at the enforcement of the rules against personal attacks, unsolicited critiques, etc., but I think it makes for a more pleasant experience if you can distinguish the forum from an adaptation of "Lord of the Flies."

And I've never really seen a group of mods who could both easily participate in the threads conversationally _and_ wield the baton of authority without clear bias toward "friends" or "favorites," as the WC mods are able to do. That's a difficult balance to maintain.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

A couple of things. 

Amazon could weed out the offenders if they stopped letting people use multiple logins. Many of my one star reviews have no other reviews - a sure sign it is a slash and dash. We could do without the up and down votes, which I assume determines the "most often comments" that show up on the sales page. Wish we had a voice Amazon would listen to. You would think they would benefit too, if the slash and dash reviews didn't keep good books from selling. 

Secondly, I do miss having other people to talk to. Only another writer can understand the ups and downs in this business. My children look at me with blank stares. )

While a private forum sounds like the answer, I don't have time to post where I can not also promote. My advice - try to avoid posting success stories and links to free books, which are the ones that get hit the most. Slash and dash probably don't purchase, or if they do, they can't return multiple books for very long without getting caught.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

There are other Mods? ?
I thought Betsy was a one woman army.

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

RTEdwins, I really appreciated your post, and not just because you gave the ol' *BM* a shoutout.  You too, Andrew. And hey, David Dalglish may have been gone for a while, but he's around now, every so often. Sometimes people take a break and come back, which is awesome.


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## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

Martitalbott said:


> Amazon could weed out the offenders if they stopped letting people use multiple logins. Many of my one star reviews have no other reviews - a sure sign it is a slash and dash. We could do without the up and down votes, which I assume determines the "most often comments" that show up on the sales page. Wish we had a voice Amazon would listen to. You would think they would benefit too, if the slash and dash reviews didn't keep good books from selling.


Word.

Further, to make it easy: if Amazon wanted to, they could run an algorithm that matched fast-piling one-star reviews against recurring IP addresses. That would be a pretty good indicator of who the craptastics are, no? Call it the "vexatious review" policy. "When a slew of negative reviews for a product (book, in our case) recur over a short time from one computer, using multiple logins, that action will be interpreted as the vexatious actions of a sole individual attempting to represent him or herself as multiple reviewers. This action will result in the suspension or deletion of review activity..." etc.

Then after deleting the one-star reviews Amazon could suspend or deny that IP from leaving reviews.

Sure, the craptastics could find workarounds but at least they would be FORCED to acknowledge that what they are doing is not agreeable. I suspect the one-star reviewers, in their minds, believe that they are performing some sort of public service. Hey, let's take these arrogant authors down a peg. This'll make them think twice about dissing "us" (whoever this "us" may be in their addled minds).

I also suspect that the craptastics (as I am now calling these one-star reviewers; I just made that term up btw) number fewer than two hands' worth of fingers; it might only even be one person. It's esp galling to me that the few, or the one, could have such a chilling effect upon honest discussion at KB, and impede happy success stories.

So, Amazon: what do you say? One algorithm? Is that too much to ask?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Harvey said:


> I also believe that (despite the impression one might get from reading this thread), the members of our community are overwhelmingly goodhearted, generous, and kind.


I'm not sure I'd say "overwhelmingly". Julie really tilts the scales toward the dark side.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> I'm not sure I'd say "overwhelmingly". Julie really tilts the scales toward the dark side.


I'm sure even the Sith have their own gradations of "goodness."


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

vrabinec said:


> I'm not sure I'd say "overwhelmingly". Julie really tilts the scales toward the dark side.


Is that a personal attack? *charges cattle prod.*



von19 said:


> There are other Mods? ?


Ann's been away at tax camp.



Betsy


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## Brooklyn Gesher (Nov 19, 2013)

I agree, I came here for some advice and was quickly shown *the next day* a negative review about something I posted here.  Knew it had to be a fellow author.  It was too well written and in the review they pointed out the very thing I was asking about on the boards. It is a shame, I was liking this place for camaraderie, which I still get but I don't post as much, I just read the forums.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Jada Nicole said:


> I agree, I came here for some advice and was quickly shown *the next day* a negative review about something I posted here. Knew it had to be a fellow author. It was too well written and in the review they pointed out the very thing I was asking about on the boards. It is a shame, I was liking this place for camaraderie, which I still get but I don't post as much, I just read the forums.


Jada, I did not write that review. Though I do have one question for you. Is that review correct? I read your blurb and noticed you had put a violence warning in it. Here is the thing I can read about serial killers all day long. Domestic violence is a trigger for me and I can't read it. So whether it was an author or a reader I appreciate the warning. 
Now it could have come from here and if so, I want to say thank you. Or it may have been someone that has the same triggers I do and was just doing what he/she thought was best.

Now if the review is true, do you have another book without domestic abuse I can read?


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> I'm guessing you were going to suggest we make the Writers' Cafe a private forum.  And yes, we did discuss that, but Betsy pointed out that it is really easy to join KBoards, because Harvey wants it that way. And that's not a bad thing. KBoards getting big doesn't have to work against us. *We just have to always keep in mind that KBoards is PUBLIC. If we keep that in mind, we can benefit from the exposure, instead of suffering for it.*


There lies the crux of the situation. A lot of the information authors post here could be considered "private" i.e. sales numbers, marketing strategies and benchmarks... those are some of the things that make WC unique (for me). The transparency is awesome!

Unfortunately, those same awesomely cool things are what the really successful authors are being attacked for (well that, and maybe pushing their "how to" process a little too strongly). 

I agree that a part of the solution is to keep in mind what this place is -- a public atmosphere. But in doing so may also kill some of the best things about the WC.


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## Brooklyn Gesher (Nov 19, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Jada, I did not write that review. Though I do have one question for you. Is that review correct? I read your blurb and noticed you had put a violence warning in it. Here is the thing I can read about serial killers all day long. Domestic violence is a trigger for me and I can't read it. So whether it was an author or a reader I appreciate the warning.
> Now it could have come from here and if so, I want to say thank you. Or it may have been someone that has the same triggers I do and was just doing what he/she thought was best.
> 
> Now if the review is true, do you have another book without domestic abuse I can read?


It came from here, I was questioning whether to put up a disclaimer; the book does have domestic violence in it so that wasn't what bothered me about the review. What I was surprised by was the initial review from a reader angrily pointing out that there *was no disclaimer.* I honestly did not think it needed one. It's literally my story told in a fictionalized account. Therefore, if it didn't bother me, I didn't see it bothering anyone else and none of the betas, editors or any of the initial reviewers were bothered by it. I didn't even know books came with disclaimers, which was why when I saw Kendall Gray's I said..hm, that's interesting and asked about it here. Her book doesn't have domestic violence in it, it was a sex disclaimer and it was hilarious. It would have been nothing to PM me here and say, "Hey girl..yeah that domestic violence should be put into the disclaimer." I would have said, oh ok..and done; that's what I consider constructive.

I appreciate your willingness to read other titles, but I'm still working on a romance that's kicking my butt from here to outer space, lol. Once I wrestle it down, I'll send you a copy. &#8230;doesn't have serial killers or dom violence in it. And now that I know that it is a trigger for folks, it's fine. I don't want someone reading the book and having an adverse experience, so it's good that it is in the reviews, it was just the way that was done that made me smh.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Jada, when you say "It came from here," are you saying that because you recognized the name of the reviewer as someone from this forum, or because of the circumstantial connection between your question posted here and the date of the review?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Jada Nicole said:


> It came from here, I was questioning whether to put up a disclaimer; the book does have domestic violence in it so that wasn't what bothered me about the review. What I was surprised by was the initial review from a reader angrily pointing out that there *was no disclaimer.* I honestly did not think it needed one. It's literally my story told in a fictionalized account. Therefore, if it didn't bother me, I didn't see it bothering anyone else and none of the betas, editors or any of the initial reviewers were bothered by it. I didn't even know books came with disclaimers, which was why when I saw Kendall Gray's I said..hm, that's interesting and asked about it here. Her book doesn't have domestic violence in it, it was a sex disclaimer and it was hilarious. It would have been nothing to PM me here and say, "Hey girl..yeah that domestic violence should be put into the disclaimer." I would have said, oh ok..and done; that's what I consider constructive.
> 
> I appreciate your willingness to read other titles, but I'm still working on a romance that's kicking my butt from here to outer space, lol. Once I wrestle it down, I'll send you a copy. ...doesn't have serial killers or dom violence in it. And now that I know that it is a trigger for folks, it's fine. I don't want someone reading the book and having an adverse experience, so it's good that it is in the reviews, it was just the way that was done that made me smh.


Not to derail this thing, but the first time I read your avyy, I read it as "Never underestimate the *destructive* power of a decent vocabulary". Gave me a chuckle, and I though, yeah, right, makes sense.


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## Heather Hamilton-Senter (May 25, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> If anyone has a NEW ADULT AUTHORS group that they'd like to invite me to, send me a PM!  Love ya!


I second that!!!! Or Young Adult.


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## Brooklyn Gesher (Nov 19, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> Jada, when you say "It came from here," are you saying that because you recognized the name of the reviewer as someone from this forum, or because of the circumstantial connection between your question posted here and the date of the review?


It was the circumstantial connection--which is not evidence, but I've learned to trust my instincts. I am a new author, so I doubt my first fiction novel was being reviewed by a book club. Thursday(for instance because I don't remember the day) I posted here...and I had 1 review about domestic violence, Friday morning, I had two. All of my titles were in my signature and it doesn't take a long time to read 100 kindle pages. The review is actually <modified>&#8230;I went back and read it; I knew there was something about it that pissed me off royally. I was told, resoundingly on the board to put it up and I did. In time, I'll grow a thicker skin, though. It was scary to even put that book out because it's so revealing, but hey..such is life.


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## Brooklyn Gesher (Nov 19, 2013)

vrabinec said:


> Not to derail this thing, but the first time I read your avyy, I read it as "Never underestimate the *destructive* power of a decent vocabulary". Gave me a chuckle, and I though, yeah, right, makes sense.


 LOL&#8230;it's all in where the mind goes.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Jada Nicole said:


> It was the circumstantial connection--which is not evidence, but I've learned to trust my instincts. I am a new author, so I doubt my first fiction novel was being reviewed by a book club. Thursday(for instance because I don't remember the day) I posted here...and I had 1 review about domestic violence, Friday morning, I had two. All of my titles were in my signature and it doesn't take a long time to read 100 kindle pages. The review is actually good and very well written. I appreciate having another one to add to my small list. I was told, resoundingly on the board to put it up and I did. In time, I'll grow a thicker skin, though. It was scary to even put that book out because it's so revealing, but hey..such is life.


I thought you were saying that your question to the forum was about whether or not to put a domestic violence warning tag in the blurb, but from this latest comment, I'm not sure that's correct. What advice did you post asking for before you got that review?


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## Brooklyn Gesher (Nov 19, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> I thought you were saying that your question to the forum was about whether or not to put a domestic violence warning tag in the blurb, but from this latest comment, I'm not sure that's correct. What advice did you post asking for before you got that review?


My question was about whether anyone used disclaimers, how they worded them and probably when did they feel the need to use them. Of course the question was probed and I gave more detail.


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

I can't speak to the caliber of the forum before a few months ago, but there's a lot of helpful information here. And quite a few (re: most if not all) authors with far more experience than I have at this self-publishing thing. But yeah, there's some nasty people here too. I wasn't maybe 20 posts into being here before disagreeing with someone caused that poster to flip out on me and tear me down for the crime of being a noob. If it weren't for the overwhelming amount of valuable info on this site I would have walked then and there. There's crazies everywhere you go, nothing can really stop it. A pro and private science fiction or humor forum would be great to find.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'd like to request that the title of this thread be changed, as it's giving me the most &^%$£ annoying earworm.


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## Andrew Ashling (Nov 15, 2010)

Lydniz said:


> I'd like to request that the title of this thread be changed, as it's giving me the most &^%$£ annoying earworm.


How about "What's another year?"


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Andrew Ashling said:


> How about "What's another year?"


God will strike you down for that.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Fishbowl Helmet said:


> But yeah, there's some nasty people here too. I wasn't maybe 20 posts into being here before disagreeing with someone caused that poster to flip out on me and tear me down for the crime of being a noob. If it weren't for the overwhelming amount of valuable info on this site I would have walked then and there. There's crazies everywhere you go, nothing can really stop it. A pro and private science fiction or humor forum would be great to find.


I remember a couple dust ups you had. I thought you acquitted yourself well. I've looked for your posts ever since. I might've never noticed you, had that not happen. So sometimes good comes out of nastiness.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Would it sound too desperate to beg everyone to stay?

I mean...yeah...I got somewhere else to go, but there's no place like home...there's no place like home...there's no....well, you get it.  

With this industry changing so fast...umber-freakin' fast...it's nice to have something in it stay solid. We have a core group of really solid people here. I don't want that to change drastically. I know there will always be attrition, but I think this thread is scaring people into a mass exodus. Please don't be hasty. Ride this one out before making a final decision.


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## SawyerPentecost (Jul 11, 2013)

Come on, where else could we go? I supposed we could go on over to reddit where the people are SO much friendlier...

I shudder to think what would happen with some of our thread titles over there.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Well we can't go play spades, chess or backgammon at yahoo anymore.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm not going anywhere. This place is enough of a timesuck without signing up to another one.


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## K. D. (Jun 6, 2013)

Yeah, well. I figure I'll see much more of you walking whilst I snail type my WIP with my crippled fingers ... sad.

Gesendet mit Galaxy S3 durch Tapatalk


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> So much wisdom in this comment. I heartily agree that a forum takes on the tone that those who are active on it promote. We cannot control how people behave outside of the forum (with regard to nasty blog posts about this place and downvoting reviews and whatnot), but we have the ability to control how we treat one another in here. And we can make this place whatever we want it to be.


This. I love this. I've always believed that. You can't control much of anything, but you can control your reaction to... Whatever. People in real life are shocked that I don't get offended. It's a verb to me, to take offense. I choose not to take it. Most stuff says way more about them than me.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Ann's been away at tax camp.
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


And this. That sounds like torture. I can't imagine any stories starting with, "this one time, at tax camp..."
Hmm maybe there's a short in that after all...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Jamie Klaire said:


> And this. That sounds like torture. I can't imagine any stories starting with, "this one time, at tax camp..."
> Hmm maybe there's a short in that after all...


Hahaha! You are so banned.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> Hahaha! You are so banned.


Oh I've never been banned before. Is there a badge I can put in my sig? Does it come with handcuffs? That cattle prod sounds too painful.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Just wanted to say that I didn't mean to imply I wouldn't be on here. Just more that I'm not going to have big arguments with people and if it's heading that way, I'm more likely to just walk away. Lately I find myself lurking more than anything. Sorry for the confusion. I've got a bit of an infection going on and sleep is getting to be a really funny word around here. 

Anyways, I think others have made some good points. This is more a general public forum and maybe it's not a matter of moving on but adding to my list. So if anyone has any good romance forums, please shoot me a message. I'm past all the basics in this and would like to see what's working for other people in my genre. Specifically marketing.  

I'd also like to note that I think KB is still the best place if you're starting out and the #1 place I tell newbies to go. There is no way I would have gotten to where I have without this place.


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## 28612 (Dec 7, 2010)

[[Wrote and deleted this post twice. Cut it a third time. Just pasted it back in ... oh, WTH ...]]

Those who have been generous with their time and experiences being punished for that generosity is so very wrong.

It's unlikely this msg will make any of the biggies stung by jerks feel better, but in a way you all have just made me see a brighter side to my time at WC. I've been here since early Dec. 2010, a few months after starting indie pubbing, and have been mostly invisible.

(A recent thread asking readers for their responses to something drew -- by far -- the most reaction, and I greatly appreciate that exception. The posters helped me see things differently. Thank you!

(And on another thread in the past few months someone thanked me for my input, which was rare and lovely. I'm talking in general -- certainly not saying it's a complete blank.)

Most of the time I'm fine with my posts being ignored. I don't post a huge amount -- chicken and egg question. Usually being ignored makes me shrug. My contribution didn't hit a note for anyone. That's okay. And in one way it's better than okay, because being mostly ignored has quieted an overactive guilt-alarm about giving/helping, so that allows me to mostly lurk and browse here.

Now, I know another benefit of being ignored. Flying below the radar of some not nice folks. And that's good for me. But sad for those who have felt the sting. And so very sad for the board, which loses out because of it. Both because people leave, and because more vow to always stay below the radar.


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## Hopeful Writer (Jul 24, 2012)

Long-time lurker. Not going to add much to the discussion here, other than - if anyone has a New Adult writers group, or any other group (I write in a few genres), please message me.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

Hopeful Writer said:


> Long-time lurker. Not going to add much to the discussion here, other than - if anyone has a New Adult writers group, or any other group (I write in a few genres), please message me.


I count at least three people looking for a New Adult group, including me. PM us pretty please!!!!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Patricia McLinn said:


> Most of the time I'm fine with my posts being ignored. I don't post a huge amount -- chicken and egg question. Usually being ignored makes me shrug. My contribution didn't hit a note for anyone. That's okay. And in one way it's better than okay, because being mostly ignored has quieted an overactive guilt-alarm about giving/helping, so that allows me to mostly lurk and browse here.
> 
> Now, I know another benefit of being ignored. Flying below the radar of some not nice folks. And that's good for me. But sad for those who have felt the sting. And so very sad for the board, which loses out because of it. Both because people leave, and because more vow to always stay below the radar.


Patricia, I know what you mean about being ignored. I do think it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Once people know you, they're more likely to respond to you. They only get to know you if you post a lot, or if you strike up friendships. (Yes, some gifted people have such a stand-out presence that they make a quick impression, but most of us aren't like that. I'm definitely not.) But posting over and over when you're not getting any positive reinforcement is hard. FWIW, I had somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 posts before I started noticing a significant proportion of my posts got responses. A lot of them still pass unremarked. It feels weird because it sort of seems like we're all having a conversation, but in f2f adult conversations, totally ignoring what someone's said isn't normal. You'd at least make eye contact, smile and nod, look thoughtful -- something.

I try to remind myself that getting no response doesn't mean someone out there isn't appreciating what I wrote ... or being totally horrified by it.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> I try to remind myself that getting no response doesn't mean someone out there isn't appreciating what I wrote ... or being totally horrified by it.


My husband pointed out that it might be that since there's no like button, we don't get that confirmation that might be there if it was. I hadn't really thought of that but there are posts I agree with and really don't have much to add. A like button would show support without having to quote and say ditto.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

My plan was to strip my sig line and go into lurk after I publish in June.  But you know what?  Screw that.  Yeah, I'll still strip my sig line, but just because Russell Blake, and others, think the sky is falling doesn't mean I have to.

I think for myself, people.  Always have.  I don't care how famous some of you are.

I'm staying here.  I'll strip my sig line in a couple of months, just because I think that's wise.  But I'm staying here.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bethany B. said:


> My husband pointed out that it might be that since there's no like button, we don't get that confirmation that might be there if it was. I hadn't really thought of that but there are posts I agree with and really don't have much to add. A like button would show support without having to quote and say ditto.


Great point, Bethany.

_Oh Harvey ... _

ETA: How about dual buttons -- "like" and "ew. someone please lick these words off my eyeballs"? The latter might prevent long, drawn-out arguments.


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## Matthew Rief (Jan 16, 2014)

It sucks that people leave negative reviews simply because they're jealous of you or are simply trying to be a bad person or they don't agree with your methods. But you can't just leave because you're being attacked. That's not a solution, it's the opposite of a solution. That's a clear statement to whoever is doing this that they have power and that they have control over your actions. Stand up for yourself d*mnit! And stand up for us. 

I've been on this forum a long time just reading all the great info. This site is great for self publishing and all publishing, it's great for books and readers. We need you Hugh, Ward, Holly, Elle, Courtney, Lilliana, Bella, Joe, and Russel and everyone else to reach out when they can and help us. Don't be afraid to stand up for what is right just because you might get a few negative reviews from a few pieces of &#(%. 

Just my opinion, but for what it's worth I enjoy this site, and I know a lot of people on here really appreciate it when "the biggies" drop in and share their wisdom.


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## Matthew Rief (Jan 16, 2014)

"Camelot never seems to last forever. A shame."


"Camelot can only fall if it's warriors keep their swords sheathed." -Just made that up, but it's sounds like something Arthur would have said.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Patricia, I know what you mean about being ignored. I do think it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Once people know you, they're more likely to respond to you. They only get to know you if you post a lot, or if you strike up friendships. (Yes, some gifted people have such a stand-out presence that they make a quick impression, but most of us aren't like that. I'm definitely not.) But posting over and over when you're not getting any positive reinforcement is hard. FWIW, I had somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 posts before I started noticing a significant proportion of my posts got responses. A lot of them still pass unremarked. It feels weird because it sort of seems like we're all having a conversation, but in f2f adult conversations, totally ignoring what someone's said isn't normal. You'd at least make eye contact, smile and nod, look thoughtful -- something.
> 
> I try to remind myself that getting no response doesn't mean someone out there isn't appreciating what I wrote ... or being totally horrified by it.


No offence to the mods - but this is a flaw within the structure of the forum. A simple like button would suffice and would catch a lot of situations.

There are many times I see a post and although I enjoy and appreciate the content I have nothing to add. A click on Like is a simple acknowledgment to the person that took the time to post.

Like buttons also encourage participation - positive encouragement - and at this time when we are reading far too many threads in regards to people reducing or stopping their input it's an issue that has to be addressed.

So Harvey - is it possible to add a Like button with the current software? and for the purpose of clarity, a Like button only - dislike buttons cause carnage.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

EC said:


> No offence to the mods - but this is a flaw within the structure of the forum. A simple like button would suffice and would catch a lot of situations.
> 
> There are many times I see a post and although I enjoy and appreciate the content I have nothing to add. A click on Like is a simple acknowledgment to the person that took the time to post.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, this was discussed most recently in February here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,178653.0.html

and Harvey's been caught up with the forum upgrade (still ongoing isssues) and stuff "in real life" so I don't know if he's looked into it. I'll check. As I expressed in the thread, "like" buttons give me an advance case of inferiority even before I post. What if no one likes my posts?  I can't count on Ann. 

Betsy


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Count me "against" a 'like' or 'agree' button. Just don't see the point. Though I will go on record as saying I almost always agree with Betsy. (BUT, here's a news flash: we've never gotten into a shouting match about the things we DON'T agree on! Imagine that!  )

"Like" and "Agree", by the way, though similar, are two different concepts. 

My assumption, when I post on a PUBLIC MESSAGE board like this, is that many will read it. Some will agree, some won't. MOST won't really have strong feelings one way or another. If there's no direct response, I am not so devoid of personal respect for myself as to assume that *NOBODY* likes me and I'm being universally ignored. (ESPECIALLY on a board with upwards of 60,000 members and 10s of thousands of threads!  ) Nor do I have such an inflated ego that I assume that no response means everyone must agree. 

No, I assume that most are like me: whether I agree or disagree I have no _need_ to make sure that everyone knows where I stand. Sometimes I don't comment because I don't feel like I _know_ enough to voice an opinion -- as frequently happens when the discussion is on an article linked in an OP: I almost never bother to follow the link so am not going to comment on the article or people's response because of that.

I KNOW however, that a LOT of people comment regardless of whether or not they DID read the article. I find that irresponsible, but it's pretty prevalent. NPR did an excellent April Fool bit on just that thing by posting to FB a somewhat provocative headline and then all the article said was, "If you followed the link and read this very short article, please just like the post; please do not post a comment." There were dozens, maybe hundreds, of comments addressing the headline only; all from people who, most likely, didn't click through.

So, here's the thing: if I agree with you, you may never know.

If I disagree with you, you may never know.

I'm perfectly happy to have a real conversation, but if it's not that, I'm not much interested, sorry.  And I'm not interested in going 'round and 'round a thing when it's perfectly obvious where everyone stands.

If you're flat out wrong about something *I* happen to be fairly expert in -- y'all may have seen me post to some of the tax threads  -- I'll tell you what I think is correct.

If you ask a question about something I *do* know about, I _will_ likely answer it. I may even comment if I feel it has been answered in a thread like that. See, I _do_ think people here realize I know something about taxes, for example, and because of comments I've gotten separately, they appreciate it when I post to a 'tax topic' and give my input. Even when all it is, is something like, 'so-and-so is accurate in her analysis' or 'you might want to consider finding a tax professional'. 

Other than that, anything I'd have to say is my opinion. People ask if their cover is good, I may give an opinion as a reader. They're free to ignore it. People may ask about putting links, or pictures, or whatever in a kindle book. I'll occasionally post my opinion. They're free to ignore it. Sometimes it's the minority opinion and sometimes not. It doesn't MATTER to me. I will usually watch the thread for the next little while to see if, in response to what I said, someone has asked for clarification or something, but after a few hours, it's completely off my radar.

Bottom line: if it's my opinion, it doesn't really matter to me if you agree with me or not; if it's facts, it matters even less.


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

*likes Ann's post*


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Oh well I strongly disagree -  and here's the argument to end all arguments. 

Introduce it and allow those among us that wish to give a nod to fellow contributors the ability to do so.  You among you that don't like the idea can just not bother using it. 

Simple.  


Now if you said to me introduce a dislike button I'd be manning the barricades already.  

We could solve the problem and have a poll on the subject - let the people speak !!

Just sayin'


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> Count me "against" a 'like' or 'agree' button. Just don't see the point. Though I will go on record as saying I almost always agree with Betsy. (BUT, here's a news flash: we've never gotten into a shouting match about the things we DON'T agree on! Imagine that!  )
> 
> "Like" and "Agree", by the way, though similar, are two different concepts.
> 
> ...


The only thing it might do is cut down the total number of posts and shrink the threads a bit by eliminating most of the "^^^what she said" and " like" posts. I don't know if the broadband savings is worth the hassle of installing it.

p.s. Funny how these are always the longest threads. We love to hate ourselves, don't we?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

EC said:


> Oh well I strongly disagree - and here's the argument to end all arguments.
> 
> Introduce it and allow those among us that wish to give a nod to fellow contributors the ability to do so. You among you that don't like the idea can just not bother using it.
> 
> ...


But the absence of "likes" on a post could be construed as a defacto "dislike." And there is already a way to tell people you've liked their post--by commenting on it.

Truthfully, I think there are advantages and disadvantages. I'd prefer to have conversation than button clicks, myself. But we've sent a smoke signal over to Harvey...

Betsy


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> But the absence of "likes" on a post could be construed as a defacto "dislike." And there is already a way to tell people you've liked their post--by commenting on it.
> 
> Truthfully, I think there are advantages and disadvantages. I'd prefer to have conversation than button clicks, myself. But we've sent a smoke signal over to Harvey...
> 
> Betsy


There's the "like" thing over at Facebook, and a similar thing over at Google+, but I've never seen it anywhere else.

Wouldn't that be a lot of work for you guys to install a "like" button? Don't you guys have enough work to do as it is?


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Joliedupre said:


> There's the "like" thing over at Facebook, and a similar thing over at Google+, but I've never seen it anywhere else.
> 
> Wouldn't that be a lot of work for you guys to install a "like" button? Don't you guys have enough work to do as it is?


Well, I don't, but Harvey does.  As for the amount of work, there might be an existing mod, I don't know. But those have to be tested to make sure they don't open up the forum to other stuff.

Some forums do have it; Proboards, off the top of my head. I'm just not familiar with enough forums to know how common it is.

Betsy


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

The board probably has a built in option for "karma" points (although these usually allow for both positive/negative karma points, so someone can go in the hole) that is little more than a mouse click to install. This doesn't apply on a post by post basis but user by user.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Christa Wick said:


> The board probably has a built in option for "karma" points (although these usually allow for both positive/negative karma points, so someone can go in the hole) that is little more than a mouse click to install. This doesn't apply on a post by post basis but user by user.


See, to me, that sounds mean. I don't see a need for 'like' or 'agree' but I am positively against 'dislike' or 'disagree' or ANY WAY for one member to anonymously 'vote down' another member. Heck, people complain about it happening at Amazon all the time.  It can so easily be done out of malice -- and there wouldn't even be the panacea of, well, maybe it was someone who's not even a member who just is a nasty so-and-so. No. That would be a Very Bad Thing, I think.

But, as Betsy says, ultimately it's up to Harvey. We have sent up the bat signal . . .but he's probably only just about getting out of bed now.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

The word "like" is loaded -  call it acknowledged or whatever - I for one read so many posts that  I appreciate - and I appreciate the time the member has taken to educate and inform.  

So maybe call it a Thank You button -  who's going to object to saying thank you.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

Oh no. We have 500 people reading this thread and only 150 liked my post. wahhh 350 people hate me!!!!


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

I can only speak for myself, obviously. But Patricia, your ignored threads comment has stuck with me. I think because I have an underdog rooting gene, and when I see something like that I wanna reach out and say sorry.
And in speaking for myself I can only say what makes me comment. 
I feel like the kid in the back of the class on here. I pay attention, take mental notes, and highly respect what everyone has to say, whether commented on or not. But I also know that I'm way new, and think if I try to jump in everyone else is thinking, "Shut up new kid." Which is fine, really, cause I don't take offense, considering it's myself censoring me. But then it seems like someone next to me will make a funny comment, and being a back-of-the-classer that I am, I'll jump in with a quick sarcastic or funny (to me) comment, ignoring the seriousness of the thread, even though I am completely soaking in the seriousness of the thread, and bookmarking even. 
So many comments make me mentally nod my head, thinking, 'yes, for sure,' but I don't comment. The ones that look like they are approaching cattle prod territory, I don't comment on. One more loud voice doesn't seem needed, and I know I'll change no one's deep seated opinions anyway, just like they won't change mine, but I watch and soak those in as well. I've also thought to myself that I was a thread killer, too. Many threads end with my name on them, partially cause I'm usually late to the race, read, think, and by the time I venture a comment, everyone else has moved on. 
I can tell you though, that the very last thing I am is mean, or evil spiritied, and if ever I post something that seems so, please reread me again with a smile, a wink and a sarcastic gleam, because I am 100% sure that if it could be read both ways, I meant it the good way. A main motto for me is 'be kind' even while being sarcastic.
So as a fellow lurker/poster/ peon in this board of greats and soon to be greats, sorry if you felt ignored. This is a lot of words from a back-of-the-classer, but there ya go. Feel free to let it kill the thread


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

Jaime, I usually get attacked, not ignored.  Ha Ha!  New kids are supposed to shut up around here, but I don't always follow unwritten rules.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> Jaime, I usually get attacked, not ignored. Ha Ha! New kids are supposed to shut up around here, but I don't always follow unwritten rules.


So you'd be a fun one to team up with. We can cause trouble together, and when we get caught we can look innocent, point at each other and say, "she did it."


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

No matter what you do, someone will take it the wrong way. 

In order to support posts I like and to show there is at least one other person who agrees, I often quote them and just say THIS. I just learned here yesterday that this practice is considered 'power posting' and is frowned upon by some. 

That said, I agree there is too much to lose by adding karma points. Been in too many gaming forum wars over those. *shudder*


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

Jamie Klaire said:


> So you'd be a fun one to team up with. We can cause trouble together, and when we get caught we can look innocent, point at each other and say, "she did it."


Ha Ha! Otherwise, I can just take the heat for you! No biggie! Someone has to address the elephants in the rooms or say the things that other people are too afraid to say. I'm your woman!


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## Fishbowl Helmet (Jan 12, 2014)

For what it's worth, I'd much rather have an actual conversation than a like button or a karma system. A few extra clicks and the need to form something akin to an actual sentence (this is a writer's board after all) will prevent more anonymous sniping, which is clearly already a problem for some people here.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

While I'm not hard-set against a "Like" feature for posts, I'm not sure that it's needed to foster good conversation in these boards. Some thoughts:

In terms of it being something that helps address people's discomfort about having no one respond to a post they've written: I would play devil's advocate a bit and say that it simply shifts the problem -- from "aw man, nobody responded to my post" to "aw man, I couldn't even get a lousy Like out of my post."

I personally prefer real conversation, and in a forum geared towards readers and writers, the flow of words never seems to be a problem.   

As far as one-word responses, like 'This.', 'Ditto', '+1', and the like... I have no problem at all with those. They're a legitimate part of the conversation, in my opinion. Who said it, and how they say it, is more meaningful to me than a count of Likes.

That being said, I get your points about it being convenient to just click a Like button and move on.

Regarding Karma -- that is actually a built-in forum feature, but we have always kept it disabled. It creates "classes" of users based on popularity and perceived helpfulness, and my feeling is that overall it has no useful place in this forum.

Just some thoughts from me. It's my anniversary weekend, and a sunny one (rare in the northwest these days), so will be OTG most of today and tomorrow. I do appreciate everybody's thoughts on the subject.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Matthew Rief said:


> "Camelot never seems to last forever. A shame."
> 
> "Camelot can only fall if it's warriors keep their swords sheathed." -Just made that up, but it's sounds like something Arthur would have said.


"On second thought, let us not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."

Sorry, couldn't help it. (When you bring up quotes of King Arthur about Camelot, and that's what comes immediately to mind.)

But seriously: this is an eternal problem. It would be nice to lob a Holy Handgrenade at trolls, but it really isn't possible. Nor is it possible to actually know what triggers them, or where they came from. It makes us paranoid.

The trolls don't actually LIVE here, and they don't do their dirty work here, so there really isn't much this community can do. We can look at ourselves and consider what kind of atmosphere we foster -- is there too much orientation toward competition and winning? But if that's what people love, why let trolls change the tenor of it?

In the end, I agree with those that a "like" button or equivalent would be a good addition to this place. (But no "down vote" option -- that's what causes click wars.) Most posts won't get a like, so it shouldn't make people feel inferior. But what it might do is simplify and thin out some of the more controversial threads, as well as give people who don't want to speak up something to express themselves.

Camille


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## Christa Wick (Nov 1, 2012)

where I visit that has the "karma" stuff, it's spanks and strokes and since we're all erotica or erotic romance writers, both are equally good  I have 124 strokes and 81 spanks  and that is the first time this year I've looked at what my metrics were


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

> Most of the time I'm fine with my posts being ignored.


Don't worry about it. Anyone which half a brain ignores mine. Sometimes I get the idea people want a Jackass button.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Harvey said:


> Regarding Karma -- that is actually a built-in forum feature, but we have always kept it disabled. It creates "classes" of users based on popularity and perceived helpfulness, and my feeling is that overall it has no useful place in this forum.


Well, if it's perceived helpfulness, I'd be in the red. But then, it might motivate me to try to help some people. Of course, that could be a disaster, too.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

Bethany B. said:


> I'm with a lot of the others. There are some things about KB that I'll always come back for. New e-reader releases and such (paperwhite press conference was awesome), books and checking in on people I've been following their progress over the years.
> 
> I really don't think I've seen a more humble author. This is someone who, in my opinion, has had the single greatest influence on publishing in our lifetime.
> 
> ...


For starters, happy anniversary! Your badge looks way cool, and you deserve it!

Just for the record, it's members like you- and you have a lot in common with the heavy hitters in that you contribute via your presence here. As, frankly, do just about everyone who's posted on this thread.

Your badge gets you respect. Your sales justify your opinions. You've written stuff that enough people enjoy that they shell out money and spend time reading your work because it's a worthwhile endeavor. Your comments on Kboards, including the ones on this thread are consistently worthwhile to read.

I hope you're here in another year. And the year after that. And that.
Happy Anniversary.


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## von19 (Feb 20, 2013)

I think it would help if everyone realized someone disagreeing with them isn't the end of the world, neither is someone not responding to their post. You'll live, I promise.

I joined in February so I'm a total noob-sandwich but I've never felt attacked or pressured to stay silent. On the contrary, I find everyone very welcoming and nice.

Outside of KB I had little knowledge of self-publishing besides what I Googled and that didn't always help. The information that I've gathered here in such a short period of time is scary.

Thank You KB. 

Sent from International Space Station using Tapatalk


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm just mourning the loss of all the epertise we had here for awhile - blurb and cover help, I even got a lot of help writing a fight scene that I knew was necessary but that I just couldn't get right.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2014)

Harvey said:


> Just some thoughts from me. It's my anniversary weekend, and a sunny one (rare in the northwest these days), so will be OTG most of today and tomorrow. I do appreciate everybody's thoughts on the subject.


Good for you and happy anniversary! Don't think about this place until you return. Take a break!


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Thank you!


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Harvey said:


> Thank you!


Never really off are we? 

Hope you have a great anniversary! What year is it?


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

18th!


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Harvey said:


> 18th!


Practically newlyweds! Congratulations to you and your spouse, Harvey.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Happy Anniversary to you and Carrie!

In honor of Harvey and Carrie's anniversary, there will be no cattle prodding tonight. 

Betsy


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Oh cool, I will run amok causing havoc.

Oh shoot, I can't do that as I need to cook dinner.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Harvey said:


> 18th!


That's fantastic! Hope you all hit the town. 



Betsy the Quilter said:


> Happy Anniversary to you and Carrie!
> 
> In honor of Harvey and Carrie's anniversary, there will be no cattle prodding tonight.
> 
> Betsy


Woohoo!

Wait, what other tools do you have? This isn't some trick where we get something worse than the cattle prod, right?


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Bethany B. said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Wait, what other tools do you have? This isn't some trick where we get something worse than the cattle prod, right?


You know it is. She can't let the inmates run the asylum.


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## crebel (Jan 15, 2009)

Bethany B. said:


> Woohoo!
> 
> Wait, what other tools do you have? This isn't some trick where we get something worse than the cattle prod, right?


Exactly, there are always the quilting needles AND she didn't say anything about Ann not borrowing the prod...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Bethany B. said:


> Wait, what other tools do you have? This isn't some trick where we get something worse than the cattle prod, right?





crebel said:


> Exactly, there are always the quilting needles AND she didn't say anything about Ann not borrowing the prod...


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## 28612 (Dec 7, 2010)

Becca and Drew and Jamie, you are very kind. Not to worry. Truly, I'm fine with my posts being ignored. I've been around publishing a long time, and around writing groups, and writing groups on the Internet. I know how things work.

I'm agnostic on a like/acknowledge/whatever button. ... Although a Jackass button has great allure, Terrence.

What I want to emphasize is that along with reading about folks being stung for having high profiles here and success making me think, "Well, ~there's~ a huge upside to being ignored" <wg>, it does cost KB in less visible ways by encouraging less frequent posters to decide that staying under the radar is smart. (And, yes, I do recognize that my posts in this thread are contrary to that wisdom. Which was why I wrote and deleted a couple times before posting.)

Sorry, I can't get back to the post that urged the visible folks to take up the cudgels to fight the meanies, so can't quote it. ... But did want to comment that to me that's trying to put an unfair burden on the big visibles. There's only so much time in the day. There are only so many fights to be made. If there is a fight to be fought it's everyone's.

Lastly, I am stunned -- stunned I say -- to read that anyone else thought he or she was the top Thread Killer. I was certain I had that wrapped up. Forget the like/acknowledge button, let's get an algo determines Top Thread Killer.


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

Everyone likes my posts and a like button would only serve to burst my firmly held illusion.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Rayven T. Hill said:


> Everyone likes my posts and a like button would only serve to burst my firmly held illusion.


^^^LIKE^^^


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## Rayven T. Hill (Jul 24, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> ^^^LIKE^^^


Can I like a like?


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Patricia McLinn said:


> Lastly, I am stunned -- stunned I say -- to read that anyone else thought he or she was the top Thread Killer. I was certain I had that wrapped up. Forget the like/acknowledge button, let's get an algo determines Top Thread Killer.


I'm going to start a thread just for high ranking "top thread killers." We will then see, truly, which of us sinks the thread the fastest. _*Twill be me, I tell ya. ME! *_

My thread killing skills are legenday!


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Patricia McLinn said:


> Sorry, I can't get back to the post that urged the visible folks to take up the cudgels to fight the meanies, so can't quote it. ... But did want to comment that to me that's trying to put an unfair burden on the big visibles. There's only so much time in the day. There are only so many fights to be made. If there is a fight to be fought it's everyone's.


Just want to make clear: this is EXACTLY what we don't want. Do NOT engage when you see something that you feel is inappropriate. *REPORT IT!* That's what the button is for!

And, honestly, even if you're generally a good citizen, if you get into a fight -- you'll be just as liable for moderation as the 'bad guy'. "He/she started it!" doesn't work any better with any of us than it did with your mother. 

Reporting bad behavior is not "tattling". It's alerting us mods that there's possibly a problem. We Can Not Read Every Post of Every Thread. It's impossible. As you say, not enough time in the day. So PLEASE, let us know when you see something that might be off. We DO follow up on every report.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

EC Sheedy said:


> I'm going to start a thread just for high ranking "top thread killers." We will then see, truly, which of us sinks the thread the fastest. _*Twill be me, I tell ya. ME! *_
> 
> My thread killing skills are legenday!


I don't kill many threads, but I mangle and maim a [crap]load.


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Boyd said:


> I'd rather get a downvote of Karma here on kboards and let them vent their spleen instead of it happening on a sales channel


Hmmm.... This is a good point Boyd made. If we had a thumbs down/do not like button, and the people who seem to go off thread to down vote elsewhere could just have instant gratification here, maybe that would be enough for them to appease their displeasure? Something to consider...


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> Hmmm.... This is a good point Boyd made. If we had a thumbs down/do not like button, and the people who seem to go off thread to down vote elsewhere could just have instant gratification here, maybe that would be enough for them to appease their displeasure? Something to consider...


That assumes that the down-voting that happens elsewhere is the result of people coming from this site and taking out their anger there. I personally doubt that is what's happening. Especially when it's beyond easy to just make a comment here that _actually_ expresses your displeasure.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Boyd said:


> I'd rather get a downvote of Karma here on kboards and let them vent their spleen instead of it happening on a sales channel


I believe that the people who read stuff here and then go and vent spleen somewhere else are, for the most part, either not even members or, if members, are people who don't participate much or at all. So I don't think having a downvote here would have much impact. My .02 worth.

I can't imagine that we would have a downvote or do not like button. I don't believe in that kind of negativity and I don't think Harvey or any of the other moderators here do. A like button? I could live with it; do not like, not so much. However, I know there are people who would like it if I left; that's been made clear enough in the past--here's your chance! Convince Harvey to institute downvoting. Just sayin'. 

EDIT: OK, I've eaten some chocolate. Feeling better now. Carry on... 

Betsy


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

LeeBee said:


> That assumes that the down-voting that happens elsewhere is the result of people coming from this site and taking out their anger there. I personally doubt that is what's happening. Especially when it's beyond easy to just make a comment here that _actually_ expresses your displeasure.


Ah, but that's the thing, if you express your displeasure back, then you aren't anonymous anymore. It opens you up to retaliation. I'm guessing the people who do this kind of stuff are too cowardly to confront. They like it anonymous. It's like the cowards who spread rumors in high school about the popular kids, pretending that "they heard" something about them, only taken to the next step because it CAN'T be traced back to them. But, I'm guessing most of them are already living in their own private little hell, because they see these authors reach heights they never can, and no amount of 1 star drive by's is ever gonna change the fact that they just don't have the talent the successful authors do. They'll get a moment of pleasure from the sabotage, but once they put their laptop away, and lay the head on the pillow, they're all alone with their pathetic rage and self-pity. Losers.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Ah, but that's the thing, if you express your displeasure back, then you aren't anonymous anymore. It opens you up to retaliation. I'm guessing the people who do this kind of stuff are too cowardly to confront. They like it anonymous. It's like the cowards who spread rumors in high school about the popular kids, pretending that "they heard" something about them, only taken to the next step because it CAN'T be traced back to them. But, I'm guessing most of them are already living in their own private little hell, because they see these authors reach heights they never can, and no amount of 1 star drive by's is ever gonna change the fact that they just don't have the talent the successful authors do. They'll get a moment of pleasure from the sabotage, but once they put their laptop away, and lay the head on the pillow, they're all alone with their pathetic rage and self-pity. Losers.


Know what I think? I think the people who do it aren't members and aren't participants, not because they are afraid to lose their anonymity, but because they have some sort of ax to grind that has nothing to do with any of the arguments here or teaching big sellers a lesson or any of that. I think they do it in order to impact self-publishers negatively and stir up the community here, and enjoy seeing the drama and suspicion we direct against one another in the wake of their activities.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Boyd said:


> I just meant a downvote of Karma... How can folks not love you Betsy? You are the voice of reason with a group of writers for pete's sake... folks know that we are a finicky lot and hard to deal with....
> 
> You are hereby sentenced to a bottle of wine and a foot rub. Enjoy it or else


You're an erotica writer, for heaven's sake - you can SURELY write a more complete prescription than that!


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

LeeBee said:


> Know what I think? I think the people who do it aren't members and aren't participants, not because they are afraid to lose their anonymity, but because they have some sort of ax to grind that has nothing to do with any of the arguments here or teaching big sellers a lesson or any of that. I think they do it in order to impact self-publishers negatively and stir up the community here, and enjoy seeing the drama and suspicion we direct against one another in the wake of their activities.


Just a different kind of loser. Not gonna waste good drinking hours on thikning about it anymoore.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Just a different kind of loser. Not gonna waste good drinking hours on thikning about it anymoore.


Good plan. Someone might accuse you of having a thinking problem.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Boyd said:


> I just meant a downvote of Karma... How can folks not love you Betsy? You are the voice of reason with a group of writers for pete's sake... folks know that we are a finicky lot and hard to deal with....
> 
> You are hereby sentenced to a bottle of wine and a foot rub. Enjoy it or else


OK, perhaps that was somewhat overwrought. I'll skip the bottle of wine and go straight for the chocolate.


Betsy


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> OK, perhaps that was somewhat overwrought. I'll skip the bottle of wine and go straight for the chocolate.
> 
> 
> Betsy


If you're not going to drink it... can I have the bottle of wine?


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> If you're not going to drink it... can I have the bottle of wine?


Fight ya for it. Oh wait, I have some.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

Boyd said:


> lolol. I could but I'd get the cattle prod
> 
> ETA: In my heart I'm a romance writer; Erotica was my stepping stone, so the default setting in my head is:
> 
> ...


Smart man. Oh and, hi Boyd. (Waves)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Just want to say, I don't doubt that it (downvotes/upvotes, reviews aimed at torpedoing an author, etc.) happens, but I would say that on balance, I've had far more positive exposure from being/posting here than I have had negative experience. Maybe one or two reviews, maybe some up/downvoting, don't know, but that could be due to visibility in other places, too. 

Lots of "sudden visibility" happened for me within a few weeks of my coming over to KBoards from, um, someplace else, and that was pretty much all good stuff. So I think the forum can work both ways. I do think that the more visible/successful you are, the more a very few people will want to "take you down," but I don't think that's the majority. And even among authors who post negative reviews on a bestselling "competing" author's books, I don't think the majority are doing it for explicitly spiteful reasons. I think it's pretty human to hear that someone's doing well, get their book out of curiosity, read it, and perhaps, if you really don't care for it, be outraged that this piece of schlock has sold when your own superior work hasn't. And who knows, they could be right about that. We all know that sales aren't necessarily an indicator of quality.

I still think it's better not to write a review in that situation, but I don't think it's usually deliberately malicious. 

On another topic here, I've only started posts a few times, but mine are often not read a whole lot either. I do think some of it is that only a few posts get tons of traction--and they're mostly more controversial ones. Everybody likes to watch a fight. We're just made that way.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Boyd and Jamie hugging.  New book next week.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

cinisajoy said:


> Boyd and Jamie hugging. New book next week.


Oh now you've done it. (Grabs Cin, too) 
Group hug!


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LeeBee said:


> If you're not going to drink it... can I have the bottle of wine?


Sure!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Where is that prod?  Betsy help.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I had one glass too many of wine at dinner, and no I have the hiccups..


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

vrabinec said:


> Ah, but that's the thing, if you express your displeasure back, then you aren't anonymous anymore. It opens you up to retaliation. I'm guessing the people who do this kind of stuff are too cowardly to confront. They like it anonymous. It's like the cowards who spread rumors in high school about the popular kids, pretending that "they heard" something about them, only taken to the next step because it CAN'T be traced back to them. But, I'm guessing most of them are already living in their own private little hell, because they see these authors reach heights they never can, and no amount of 1 star drive by's is ever gonna change the fact that they just don't have the talent the successful authors do. They'll get a moment of pleasure from the sabotage, but once they put their laptop away, and lay the head on the pillow, they're all alone with their pathetic rage and self-pity. Losers.


Dude, this is epic! +1


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> I think it's pretty human to hear that someone's doing well, get their book out of curiosity, read it, and perhaps, if you really don't care for it, be outraged that this piece of schlock has sold when your own superior work hasn't. And who knows, they could be right about that. We all know that sales aren't necessarily an indicator of quality.


Rosalind, I actually don't get outraged. In fact, I think it's humorous when authors get angry over stuff like that. I'm usually like, "Oh please, get over yourself."


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

While attacks in the form of one-star reviews, upvotes/downvotes, etc do happen, and it blows that they do, it's not an epidemic. That's no comfort for those who have been the victims of these sorts of attacks, but overall the board and its effect on members is a positive one. I know I've gained a lot from being a member here. And I don't just mean knowledge and friendships, but sales and readers as well. 

We all know there are no public safe havens on the Internet. Compared to most sites, KB filled with kittens sleeping in bowls being adorable.

Is there a danger that you (superstar or not) might attract some negative attention? Yes. Will you also attract some of the good stuff, too? Yes, again. I just don't think everyone needs to hide under their blankets. Again, I'm not saying the potential threat isn't real, nor am I diminishing the impact on those who've been attacked; I'm just trying remind us all that the vast majority of interactions here--posts and posters--are of the positive variety. Part of that is because we are not anonymous. We are upfront about who we are and that lends credibilty and comraderie. Just keep on keepin' on.

Shine on, you crazy board! Shine on!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique: +1

As for up and down votes and karma points, etc.  I've noticed two things that we should consider about it:

1.) Enabling negative votes attract gangs.  I see it on every group that has it.  It's easy to think "our members don't do that sort of thing" but one of the reasons for that is because there's nothing in this group for passive-aggressive trolls. As soon as you enable retaliatory behavior, those people flock in.

So, while I like the idea of a "like" button or a "+1" button, if it has a "dislike" or down-vote option, I'd rather see nothing at all.

2.) The opposite side of the coin, where people get competitive about how many "likes" they have, can be dealt with by NOT tracking how many "likes" a user gets.  Show the number only on the individual posts.  If no number appears on the user profiles, people can't keep score, and there is no reward in it. Posts, on the other hand, pop up and disappear.  There is no lasting value in inflating the "likes" on a post.  (Note how on Twitter, nobody tries to game the "favorites" -- that's because they don't get any status out of it.)

Camille


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> Rosalind, I actually don't get outraged. In fact, I think it's humorous when authors get angry over stuff like that. I'm usually like, "Oh please, get over yourself."


Yeah, but you're actually, you know, professional. You have a little detachment. Some people don't.


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## Susanne O (Feb 8, 2010)

A lot of this stuff has happened to me too when I've been public about my successes. I got upset by all of that. 

But then I made a bet with myself  not to look at any of my reviews for a month- yes, a whole month. And I didn't. Very hard at first not to look but then after a while it felt good. 

Then after the month, I had quick look, just to see how many I had. So there were a lot more, a mixed bunch. Not too bad. But I didn't read any of them, not even the five star ones.

Since then I haven't looked for over two months now. I know will have to if I do a promo, but right now, not looking at reviews works for me. And I have let go of the review-angst too. It doesn't matter so much to me anymore. That feels good. I feel free. I feel I've grown up.


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## A.C. Scott (Mar 25, 2014)

I haven't finished all 13 pages yet, but I wanted to say that this kind of thing happens everywhere on the internet. Every time I get into an online fight, all of my media that is connected to my name is downvoted or vandalized. Videos, books, etc.

I wish people wouldn't do it, and I don't because it's childish, but it seems to be part of living on the internet.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

We don't actually have to converse publicly. We will just click on buttons. I would like multiple buttons like this for each thread:
Like.
Dislike.
Agree.
Disagree.
Great post.
Jackass.
Plus 1!
PM me for comments
Hooray! Congrats!
Sorry. Hugs.
Helpful.
Awww.
Looking adoringly at Blake.
Frowning and shaking fist at Blake.

We can click on several buttons to express how we feel about the OP's post! The last two could be used on any poster's comment, even if Blake hasn't commented. That would make it fun.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

The button brigade, how funny!


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## Ben Mathew (Jan 27, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> We don't actually have to converse publicly. We will just click on buttons. I would like multiple buttons like this for each thread:
> Like.
> Dislike.
> Agree.
> ...


<Great post> <Agree> <Plus 1!> <Plus 1!> <Plus 1!>


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## Nathaniel Burns (Nov 1, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> The last two could be used on any poster's comment, even if Blake hasn't commented. That would make it fun.


ROFL


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

You know, I've talked about stripping my sig line as soon as I start publishing in June, but here is an example of someone buying a book specifically due to seeing it in a sig line.  Nathaniel, I'm buying your "How I Make 4,000 a Month Selling eBooks on Amazon Kindle."  I would not have known about your book had I not seen it in your sig line.

I'm aware of authors who have received upvotes on bad reviews as a direct result of what they've posted at WC.  So yes, it is happening.  However, I'll need to decide how I plan to deal with it.  So far, I want to strip my sig line.  But my buying Nathaniel's book is proof that sig lines are good for promotion.


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> We don't actually have to converse publicly. We will just click on buttons. I would like multiple buttons like this for each thread:
> Like.
> Dislike.
> Agree.
> ...


Totally with you on LIKE and HELPFUL and AGREE. Just like on Facebook.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Gennita Low said:


> We don't actually have to converse publicly. We will just click on buttons. I would like multiple buttons like this for each thread:
> Like.
> Dislike.
> Agree.
> ...


Just looking Gennita


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## Jan Thompson (May 25, 2013)

Joliedupre said:


> You know, I've talked about stripping my sig line as soon as I start publishing in June, but here is an example of someone buying a book specifically due to seeing it in a sig line. Nathaniel, I'm buying your "How I Make 4,000 a Month Selling eBooks on Amazon Kindle." I would not have known about your book had I not seen it in your sig line.
> 
> I'm aware of authors who have received upvotes on bad reviews as a direct result of what they've posted at WC. So yes, it is happening. However, I'll need to decide how I plan to deal with it. So far, I want to strip my sig line. But my buying Nathaniel's book is proof that sig lines are good for promotion.


My sig line is a banner to my website since my books won't be out for a couple more months. But even after that I'm sure I'll be too lazy to update my KB sig line every time a new book comes out. Hence the banner. Have you considered a banner? You could advertise whatever on it.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

Don't strip your sig line! I lurk around here and click on people's sigs to hunt for new books. >.>


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2014)

Kessie Carroll said:


> Don't strip your sig line! I lurk around here and click on people's sigs to hunt for new books. >.>


I'm not stripping my sig line, anymore.  I'll just be careful with what threads I participate in, and I if my books take off, I won't discuss my earnings.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

To the OP and those like him:
One of you who left recently, or at least is currently lurking in the shadows of silence, gave me some advice a few months ago. The advice was to quit doing the local stuff that reaches a handful of people and put my energy into internet exposure because that's where you can have the widest exposure. (No names, but you should recognize yourself.) I wonder how anyone can take advantage of that wide reach and at the same time hide from possible internet abuse? There are surely far more dangerous vantage points than KB's WC.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Some who no longer post, or post very seldom, do stay current with board conversation and chime in from time to time with something helpful. Blakebooks, are you one of those? I certainly hope so because your wisdom and knowledge will be sorely missed here.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Sapphire said:


> Some who no longer post, or post very seldom, do stay current with board conversation and chime in from time to time with something helpful. Blakebooks, are you one of those? I certainly hope so because your wisdom and knowledge will be sorely missed here.


If not, here's his latest blog post. We can keep Russell's memory alive! 

http://russellblake.com/


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> If not, here's his latest blog post. We can keep Russell's memory alive!
> 
> http://russellblake.com/


Thanks!


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

His new blot post was fabulous.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> His new blot post was fabulous.


Agreed. That's what I respect about him. He tells it like it is.


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## Gennita Low (Dec 13, 2012)

cinisajoy said:


> Just looking Gennita


Well, we could have a special "Bathing With Blake" button for you.


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## P.T. Phronk (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm brand new around here, but as a fresh perspective: I've seen nothing but positivity here so far. Too bad there are some jerks leaving spiteful reviews for whatever reason, but I'm glad I found this place.

Also: I've already bought several books after clicking in sigs. Whenever I see something insightful, I check out the poster's sig, because writing well here probably translates to writing well in books. I hope that makes up for the jerks to some extent.


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