# New W-8BEN form doesn't allow EIN?



## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

So... there have been loads of threads here about the joys of non-US writers getting a US tax number and filling in a W-8BEN form so that Amazon (or other US based retailers) don't withhold 30% tax.

There's also a great page and list of comments here on this topic: http://catherineryanhoward.com/2012/02/24/non-us-self-publisher-tax-issues-dont-need-to-be-taxing/

Well, I thought I had this cracked &#8230; I'm a UK based self-publisher, and at first found the EIN route straightforward. I phoned, got the EIN, and put it in the electronic W-8BEN form for Amazon and on a hardcopy version which I posted to Smashwords. All seemed good. However, I now want to go direct with Nook Press so I need to send them a W-8BEN too &#8230; and I find that the form has changed in the few weeks since I last completed one.

The latest version of this form (which is now only for individuals) specifically says that the TIN must be either an SSN or an ITIN - no mention of an EIN. If you are not an individual you're supposed to use W-8BEN-E, but that requires choosing between a number of different entity types, none of which is "Sole Trader". I'm feeling stuck - has anyone cracked this one? Would it work if I used a copy of the old W-8BEN, or have the rules changed so that sole traders can't use an EIN anymore (which is what the current forms seem to imply)?


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

AlexBrantham said:


> So... there have been loads of threads here about the joys of non-US writers getting a US tax number and filling in a W-8BEN form so that Amazon (or other US based retailers) don't withhold 30% tax.
> 
> There's also a great page and list of comments here on this topic: http://catherineryanhoward.com/2012/02/24/non-us-self-publisher-tax-issues-dont-need-to-be-taxing/
> 
> ...


Well... i am no expert but I did the w8-ben using EIN for ACX last week. They accepted it fine. I just checked the copy I kept of the form, and it had an EIN box to tick. The new form doesn't, so I suspect we will all need an ITIN in future


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

I got an ITIN originally because that was what I was told I needed. I didn't even know about EIN at the time. I've sent all my forms off to everyone (US based publishers/distritutors) with an ITIN and have had no trouble so far. Things may change in the future though


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Do we know what happens with this kind of thing when our forms etc are already accepted? Are we likely to be told for example, that we will have 30% withheld until a NEW form and number is submitted or is it only for forms submitted from now on? I ask because it might be a good idea to get an ITIN in addition to our EIN to be ready.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

What have i missed?

I joined Nook Press when they opened in the UK and they didn't require any tax info at all.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Josef Black said:


> What have i missed?
> 
> I joined Nook Press when they opened in the UK and they didn't require any tax info at all.


They do, but do not advertise the fact. It is buried in My Nook Vendor Account > Payment and Tax Information > W8 Information > More Info

That tells you that you must download a W8-BEN from IRS and post it to Nook in New York. Until then they will withhold 30%.


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## anamartin (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm in Canada. EIN is only if you have employees. Individuals require a ITIN in order to take advantage of the tax treaty and not have 30% withheld.  Interesting that an official Acceptance Agent can file for you but charge up to $500 to do so. Did it myself paying only $45 for a certified copy of my passport so I wouldn't have to send original documents.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Josef Black said:


> What have i missed?
> 
> I joined Nook Press when they opened in the UK and they didn't require any tax info at all.


The IRS has changed the W8Ben by making W8Ben and a W8Ben-e now. E= EIN and cannot be used for individuals and the other is ITIN only for individuals. So if we have to file new paperwork from now on, I suspect we ALL need ITIN


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> So if we have to file new paperwork from now on, I suspect we ALL need ITIN


Argh. I seem to remember that requires us to queue up at the embassy for three days and send our original passport and first-born child to the IRS. Or something.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

anamartin said:


> I'm in Canada. EIN is only if you have employees.


People were getting tax treaty benefits via EINs despite not having employees or being incorporated, but the IRS website implied that one of those two criteria was required. I guess the forms have now caught up with policy. IRS have also clamped down on downloadable forms, so you need to request an actual letter on headed notepaper from a retailer, not something you download from Smashwords etc. My first ITIN application was rejected over a downloaded Smashwords letter, so Smashwords sent out a real letter and the clerk in the London Embassy said "Good this is a real letter they have signed." Smashwords will send a real letter on request via support.

Now if only Google would fix the glitch in their system that means that I am not being presented with their online W8-BEN - maybe they are updating it to the Feb 2014 revision.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I think it might be easier to take my husband on as an employee.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> I think it might be easier to take my husband on as an employee.


What is really annoying is that I once had an ITIN but I cannot find the paperwork for it. I can't remember the number. I have EIN registered at every vendor including ACX only recently and all were accepted just fine. But now we are officially into the new tax year of 2014 I guess the new forms are active. If new vendors open up or perhaps the old ones start requesting new paperwork...?

You said you could employ your husband, but isn't the number for you AS an employee not as an employer? Wouldn't he need to employ you?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> You said you could employ your husband, but isn't the number for you AS an employee not as an employer? Wouldn't he need to employ you?


I don't know. To be honest, I wasn't really paying attention when I got it.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Lydniz said:


> I think it might be easier to take my husband on as an employee.


Once I avoided the downloaded form I found the ITIN process easy so long as you can wait 6 weeks (plus the time for the mailed letter from the retailer), but then I live in London, which has one of the few US Embassies authorised to take certified copies of passports. Although you must read the embassy website on what you cannot bring into the building (phones etc).



Mark E. Cooper said:


> now we are officially into the new tax year of 2014 I guess the new forms are active. If new vendors open up or perhaps the old ones start requesting new paperwork...?
> You said you could employ your husband, but isn't the number for you AS an employee not as an employer? Wouldn't he need to employ you?


Mark the new forms only date back to Feb 2014; and no EIN stands for Employer Identification Number- for people with employees not who are employees.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Mark the new forms only date back to Feb 2014; and no EIN stands for Employer Identification Number- for people with employees not who are employees.


Okay then, so in theory I am ok if I employ someone. That's... just weird. They aren't interested in the someone, just me, but as long as I pay someone to do something like make covers, edit books, accountancy I'm fine. That makes no bloody sense at all.

Anyone know where I can find my old ITIN number? Maybe if I phoned someone they would mail it again.


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## Nymirra (Mar 15, 2014)

So, should I be kicking myself right around now that I won't be getting around to calling for the EIN until next week and planned to send the W8-BEN then? Or... *Reads up.* Am I fine if I, for example, pay for someone to make covers for me?


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## She (Apr 15, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I think it might be easier to take my husband on as an employee.


This! I'm just going to contract an assistant for one hour a year or something, I'll find something for him/her to do!  This US tax business makes my head hurt. I just recently got an EIN and plugged it into the Amazon form. That was on April 10th and it's still "under review" by the IRS. I hope that doesn't mean they're going to kick it back because I'm not an employer. And even that got me stressed before doing it (although the actual process was quick and painless). I haven't signed up with any other retail channels yet so I guess I've got this quandary to look forward to. I really don't want to have to go through the ludicrously convoluted process of getting an ITIN. I don't even really mind going to London (although I'll have to sell a good number of books to make back the train fare, never mind the lost time), but apparently even that's not good enough if you don't have the right sort of letter.

I suppose the people affected by this should count ourselves lucky that our countries even _have_ a tax treaty with the US, but it's still galling to have to jump through such ridiculous hoops to avoid paying tax in two countries. We're writers, for goodness sake, most of us are barely earning enough to keep ourselves in cheap biros. I'll be in this corner, sulking.

EDIT: Mercia, did I read that right? You can't take phones into the embassy building?!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I've just found this on the new instructions:

_If you are providing this Form W-8BEN to document yourself with respect to a financial account that 
you hold at a U.S. office of a financial institution, provide the tax identifying number (TIN) issued to you by your 
jurisdiction of tax residence unless: 
You have not been issued a TIN, or 
The jurisdiction does not issue TINs.
If you have not provided your jurisdiction of residence TIN on line 6, provide your date of birth in line 8._

Do we have a tax ID number in the UK?

ETA: Actually, no, that's just for bank accounts, I think.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8ben.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I feel extremely fortunate that I rushed to get my W8 into ACX before April 1st and that they validated it within days. Assuming the IRS don't make a fuss I think I am ok unless a new channel opens up needing forms. The new W8BEN-E is VERY different to the old W8, and its the one you must use if you have an EIN now. It seems to ask for the name of your company etc, which is ok with me except my EIN is registered with my name not my company's name. So that will straight away fail, I just know it.

I hate bureaucracy!


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

anamartin said:


> I'm in Canada. EIN is only if you have employees. Individuals require a ITIN in order to take advantage of the tax treaty and not have 30% withheld. Interesting that an official Acceptance Agent can file for you but charge up to $500 to do so. Did it myself paying only $45 for a certified copy of my passport so I wouldn't have to send original documents.


I, too, am in Canada and the IRS had no problem giving me an EIN for my sole proprietorship when I called them 18 months ago. That EIN allowed me to take advantage of the US/Canada tax treaty and I haven't had any US income tax withheld.

I recently hired an accountant who, in addition to being licensed in Canada, is also licensed to file US tax returns and who works with a number of artists and writers. He didn't bat an eye at my EIN.


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

I can't remember ever having to give my NI number to Amazon or Smashwords. For the moment I seem to be not paying USA tax with just an EIN, so unless they start catching up with people who have already sent in their forms, maybe it will be ok. I would be quite cross if I had to go to London from here just to queue up at the embassy for an ITIN, and also if I am going to spend about 9 hours on a train I will be completely laden with electronic equipment to pass the time with! I think you can possibly send for an ITIN if you enclose something vital such as your passport or driving licence.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

She said:


> Mercia, did I read that right? You can't take phones into the embassy building?!


Yes I was forewarned because an American friend in London got caught out by that and hid his phone in a bush in the park beside the embassy and amazingly it was still there when he came out. These rules stand for all federal buildings in the US too - I could not enter the Seattle IRS office with a phone or any other electronic gadget. Remember Oklahoma.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

W8s are only valid for three years.


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Aw, poop. I only got my EIN a week ago. Haven't got round to submitting all the W8s yet. Did Amazon's online one. There's not a chance in hell I can travel down to the London Embassy. Also I don't have a passport or driving license.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

She said:


> EDIT: Mercia, did I read that right? You can't take phones into the embassy building?!


You can't even take key fobs into the building. I had to hide mine out on the street.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2014)

If you are UK-based and self-employed you are given a tax id number. (UK UTR) Mine is a 10 digit number. I put mine one my form with Amazon.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

TobiasRoote said:


> If you are UK-based and self-employed you are given a tax id number. (UK UTR) Mine is a 10 digit number. I put mine one my form with Amazon.


When did you do that? Was it recently? I presume they accepted it.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

TobiasRoote said:


> If you are UK-based and self-employed you are given a tax id number. (UK UTR) Mine is a 10 digit number. I put mine one my form with Amazon.


I'm UK and self employed and I've never heard of that. I used my EIN.


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## KarlYork (Jan 14, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> When did you do that? Was it recently? I presume they accepted it.


Yes indeed. Don't use your NI number - you should only really ever give that out to UK government institutions when requested; nobody else.

I would also be interested if using the HMRC's UTR circumvents the whole US TIN problem. I don't have an EIN or ITIN just yet, and will have to investigate with IRS which one I need. (I guess we can't use pen names as "employees". lol)

But I've been doing self-assessment since 2008 so if I could just use my UTR, that would be simplest and save me a ton of money if I end up having to take a W-7 avec documents to London. (Hopefully I'll remember to leave the gadgets at home. I'll just take a book, perhaps "End The Fed" by Ron Paul. :lol: Or maybe not - they'll chuck me out on my ear!)


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

KarlYork said:


> Yes indeed. Don't use your NI number - you should only really ever give that out to UK government institutions when requested; nobody else.
> 
> I would also be interested if using the HMRC's UTR circumvents the whole US TIN problem. I don't have an EIN or ITIN just yet, and will have to investigate with IRS which one I need. (I guess we can't use pen names as "employees". lol)
> 
> But I've been doing self-assessment since 2008 so if I could just use my UTR, that would be simplest and save me a ton of money if I end up having to take a W-7 avec documents to London. (Hopefully I'll remember to leave the gadgets at home. I'll just take a book, perhaps "End The Fed" by Ron Paul. :lol: Or maybe not - they'll chuck me out on my ear!)


Ah... do you get a UTR after your first self-assessment? This year is my first.


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Yes I was forewarned because an American friend in London got caught out by that and hid his phone in a bush in the park beside the embassy and amazingly it was still there when he came out. These rules stand for all federal buildings in the US too - I could not enter the Seattle IRS office with a phone or any other electronic gadget. Remember Oklahoma.


There's apparently a newsagents near the US embassy in London that charges £5 to look after your phone, laptop etc while you visit the embassy. That's what my husband did when he went on my behalf.


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## KarlYork (Jan 14, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Ah... do you get a UTR after your first self-assessment? This year is my first.


Yes Mark - the first time, they'll send you a paper form to file your return. The UTR is the 10 digit number - basically it's the first info on the form, right at the top of page 1. The next line says "Tax Reference" and that IS your NI number, but the tax folks always seem to request that you quote UTR in correspondence with them.


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## She (Apr 15, 2014)

KarlYork said:


> Yes Mark - the first time, they'll send you a paper form to file your return. The UTR is the 10 digit number - basically it's the first info on the form, right at the top of page 1. The next line says "Tax Reference" and that IS your NI number, but the tax folks always seem to request that you quote UTR in correspondence with them.


I got mine right away, before I did a self-assessment. The letter was basically "thanks for registering, here's your UTR, you'll be asked to do a self-assessment". I never thought I'd say this, but I'm really warming up to HMRC. Compared to the IRS, they're basically a fuzzy basket of kittens.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

DebBennett said:


> There's apparently a newsagents near the US embassy in London that charges £5 to look after your phone, laptop etc while you visit the embassy. That's what my husband did when he went on my behalf.


The embassy website lists the local businesses who (make a killing and) store your valuables for you.


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## B&amp;H (Apr 6, 2014)

Had a look at the new w8 ben e and it mentioned partnerships.

That could be a viable option, put your partner down as your partner, then file as sole trader,  you could list them as editor etc and it may have uk tax benefits if they are under their tax allowance threshold as you could split your income across your tax allowances. 

Also it might be less hassle to set up a pass through ltd company to avoid the itin. Once you go over a certain income the ability to avoid nics on dividend income becomes a better option than sole trading.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

She said:


> I never thought I'd say this, but I'm really warming up to HMRC. Compared to the IRS, they're basically a fuzzy basket of kittens.


I spoke to a lovely lady on the phone when I was having trouble signing into the website. She was extremely helpful and didn't laugh at all when it turned out I'd been trying to use my DVLA user ID to log into self-assessment.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

KarlYork said:


> Yes Mark - the first time, they'll send you a paper form to file your return. The UTR is the 10 digit number - basically it's the first info on the form, right at the top of page 1. The next line says "Tax Reference" and that IS your NI number, but the tax folks always seem to request that you quote UTR in correspondence with them.


Thanks, I'm learning something now. Still, UTR won't work for tax with holding. You get two choices. EIN for the new W8-Ben-E or ITIN for the modified one page W8-Ben that replaced the old one.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Josef Black said:


> Had a look at the new w8 ben e and it mentioned partnerships.
> 
> That could be a viable option, put your partner down as your partner, then file as sole trader, you could list them as editor etc and it may have uk tax benefits if they are under their tax allowance threshold as you could split your income across your tax allowances.
> 
> Also it might be less hassle to set up a pass through ltd company to avoid the itin. Once you go over a certain income the ability to avoid nics on dividend income becomes a better option than sole trading.


My company IS an LTD, but that's a new thing and my EIN isn't linked to it. It's linked to my person and my real name not my company name. d*mn this is a mess. Maybe I should apply for a new one. Can I even do that?


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2014)

I know there is a time and a place (and a thread) for this, but we should all (UK peeps) get together and get a class response from HMRC and IRS to establish the ground rules for an individual author. If it ends up we all have to form small publishing houses then a viable solution would be to form a limited partnership in the UK and then respond as a business. A Ltd partnership means each partner (author) would be responsible for their own affairs and income, but you would effectively be under a business umbrella. - just a thought.


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## She (Apr 15, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I spoke to a lovely lady on the phone when I was having trouble signing into the website. She was extremely helpful and didn't laugh at all when it turned out I'd been trying to use my DVLA user ID to log into self-assessment.


That's totally understandable, that stuff is confusing! You have to sign up for the Government Gateway to do self-assessment. I saw that and thought "Ooh, I remember signing up for that to book my driving theory test!" Could I figure out how to use the same ID? No. No I could not. Registered another one, waited for the activation code to arrive, which it did right before I went on holiday, so of course I forgot about it and now it's expired. So I had to get a third ID and I'm waiting for the code to come through again.

Most if not all of that is my fault, though, so HMRC are still in my good books, as far as people whose job it is to take my money go.


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## Nymirra (Mar 15, 2014)

So... Anyone know of a good guide on how to get through this W8-BEN-E monstrosity? :|


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

She said:


> Re: UTRs, I just registered as self-employed and got that, but I haven't heard anyone say they used it instead of the US ITIN before. Tobias, has yours been accepted? Have they stopped withholding the 30%?


I would seriously doubt that a UK UTR will suffice. Anyone with any non-PAYE income (its not just for the self-employed) gets one and keeps it for the rest of their life whether they use it or not. All it proves is that at some point in your life less than 100% of your income in the UK was PAYE. The US want proof that you really are not a US citizen so they ask for an ITIN (for which you are asked to supply your NINO). In the UK you can go into the US Embassy in London (who photocopy the passport and give it back, then they send the forms to Texas) or into a UK passport office and ask them to give you a certified copy. IRS will not accept any other form of certification (they used to accept notarised passport copies but that was abused).



Josef Black said:


> Had a look at the new w8 ben e and it mentioned partnerships.
> 
> That could be a viable option, put your partner down as your partner, then file as sole trader, you could list them as editor etc and it may have uk tax benefits if they are under their tax allowance threshold as you could split your income across your tax allowances.
> 
> Also it might be less hassle to set up a pass through ltd company to avoid the itin. Once you go over a certain income the ability to avoid nics on dividend income becomes a better option than sole trading.


I could not find W8-BEN-E on the IRS website, but almost certainly a partnership means a legally registered firm that exists as a partnership rather than a limited liability corporation [LLC]. If you followed your advice and then filed as a sole trader that would invoke the dissolution of a partnership which means a restructuring of your business which requires a new EIN. OTOH incorporating as an LLC for UK folk is one of the simplest and cheapest such processes in the world. In fact the annual filing fee is almost as much as the initial incorporation fee.

PS Mark, not only can you get a new EIN you must get a new one because you incorporated.


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## KarlYork (Jan 14, 2014)

She said:


> I got mine right away, before I did a self-assessment. The letter was basically "thanks for registering, here's your UTR, you'll be asked to do a self-assessment". I never thought I'd say this, but I'm really warming up to HMRC. Compared to the IRS, they're basically a fuzzy basket of kittens.


Yes, mine probably came right away as well; it was a while ago now. Can't remember. lol. And of course, if you do decide to file online, there's the other number you need for Government Gateway. They are indeed ultra-helpful on the phone, but unfortunately not very connected - I've had to make different phone calls for Self-Assessment, Working Tax Credits, National Insurance Contributions, etc. Each of them knows their bit, but I found (in one case) he couldn't answer questions about other sections and told me to phone them separately. Not a huge problem, and they're never rude about it.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> PS Mark, not only can you get a new EIN you must get a new one because you incorporated.


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2014)

She said:


> Re: UTRs, I just registered as self-employed and got that, but I haven't heard anyone say they used it instead of the US ITIN before. Tobias, has yours been accepted? Have they stopped withholding the 30%?


Sorry, I didn;t mean to imply that was all i put in, when I applied via the IRS I mentioned I had my own publishing company (Roote Publishing) and that I was self employed and got my EIN number. When I completed the form it asked for your UK Tax number and i gave them the UTR number, which was accepted. None of my money was withheld from that moment on. i'm not sure the money before it will find its way back to me though.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf


Thanks Mark for the link I could not bring it up on a search of the IRS site. Partnership is according to the IRS site expected to be a legal entity formed under company law. The options on the form now align with the details on the IRS site (the form hadn't been updated for 8 years).

There is of course a difference between what the regulations stipulate and what you might get away with depending on the clerk that you speak to on the phone. I suspect what is happening is that authors are being given EINs over the phone and then when the paperwork arrives in the US they realise that some of the EINs should never have been granted. Not even all incorporated companies in the US get an EIN: without employees a single person LLC is not automatically entitled to an EIN. This also makes me suspect that the "have employees" criterion does not apply to international employers as it deals with a particular vagary of the US tax system (where a single person LLC without employees is normally taxed as if the LLC did not exist- "disregarded entity" on the form).

This is all research-based guess-work - I am not a tax consultant.


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## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

Hmmm - thanks for all the responses. Not exactly what I'd hoped, but there it is. Looks like I won't be bothering to go direct with Nook press for a while!


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Apart from the hassle, is there any reason why I shouldn't/can't get an ITIN even though I already have an EIN?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Lydniz said:


> Apart from the hassle, is there any reason why I shouldn't/can't get an ITIN even though I already have an EIN?


No there is even a line on the ITIN application form to enter your previously awarded EIN.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I have contacted a professional about this but haven't heard back yet. I actually DO have both ITIN and EIN, but I can't find the bloody ITIN! I remember trying to use it way back and the vendors wouldn't take it. They wanted the EIN so that's why I'm where I'm at. These changes are a pain. Sole proprietor is no longer an acceptable answer, so I suspect that the next time I need to enter this stuff all hell is going to bust loose. That's why I want to have new numbers ready. I might never need them, but I want them in case.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I might start an application for an ITIN, then. I suspect at some point Amazon etc will want updated W8 forms, and I don't want to have to pay them 30% for months while I wait for the ITIN and then go through the whole rigmarole of claiming it back. I'm lucky that I thought to get my EIN before I started earning much, so Amazon only have about £4 of mine, but I'm making more now and don't want to lose any!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> I might start an application for an ITIN, then. I suspect at some point Amazon etc will want updated W8 forms, and I don't want to have to pay them 30% for months while I wait for the ITIN and then go through the whole rigmarole of claiming it back. I'm lucky that I thought to get my EIN before I started earning much, so Amazon only have about £4 of mine, but I'm making more now and don't want to lose any!


From my pov the ideal would be a way to update my status and keep my current EIN. I don't see how to do that though.


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Okay, so if you live in the Great North of GB you can send a certified copy of your passport down to the embassy  ? Or do we really have to descend on the capital en masse?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

NAsh said:


> Okay, so if you live in the Great North of GB you can send a certified copy of your passport down to the embassy ? Or do we really have to descend on the capital en masse?


No the Passport Office certified copy is posted to IRS along with the W7 form and the original mailed out letter from the retailer. The embassy is a way to avoid needing to get a certified copy and also means they post it to their colleagues in the US. The London embassy has an IRS office inside it that is why the embassy can be involved.


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

Mercia McMahon said:


> No the Passport Office certified copy is posted to IRS along with the W7 form and the original mailed out letter from the retailer. The embassy is a way to avoid needing to get a certified copy and also means they post it to their colleagues in the US. The London embassy has an IRS office inside it that is why the embassy can be involved.


Thanks Mercia, this is really helpful as it sounds like a viable way for people who live some way from London to do all this.
I think there is a passport office somewhere in Scotland, although presumably there won't be if we get independence! (aaaargh!)


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Mark, if you switched to publishing through a limited co, you really should have a new EIN linked to that, and submit new W8 forms with ltd co details and EIN. Takes an hour at most, and avoids this whole ITIN problem entirely as a bonus. An ITIN wouldn't be it for you, as you're a separate legal entity from that one Amazon etc are paying.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Woohoo. I just remembered I already have a certified copy of my passport. I can send that off to get an apostille. £30 plus postage it costs. £30!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Pelagios said:


> Mark, if you switched to publishing through a limited co, you really should have a new EIN linked to that, and submit new W8 forms with ltd co details and EIN. Takes an hour at most, and avoids this whole ITIN problem entirely as a bonus. An ITIN wouldn't be it for you, as you're a separate legal entity from that one Amazon etc are paying.


Yeah, just filled out the form. I think even though this is my first year as LTD it's a good idea to change over now.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Oh, the IRS is so confusing. 

I think upgrading to be a limited company might be the best way forward. An accountant can sort all that out for a small fee. 

But if we are an LLC, do we still need to employ someone to get the EIN? And if so, do freelance editors really count?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I was discussing setting up a ltd company with my husband the other week (he used to have one) and he didn't think it was a good idea unless you're earning biggish bucks. Anyway, I've posted my passport copy off.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

sarahdalton said:


> Oh, the IRS is so confusing.
> 
> I think upgrading to be a limited company might be the best way forward. An accountant can sort all that out for a small fee.
> 
> But if we are an LLC, do we still need to employ someone to get the EIN? And if so, do freelance editors really count?


If you are in the UK and accept model articles of incorporation and set up a company limited by shares it can all be done on the internet for £15.

The employee issue is not really relevant to those outside the US. It relates to the fact that in the US a one person LLC files for income tax as an individual and does not get an EIN, unless they have employees, in which case they need a EIN. A freelance is not an employee you are their client.


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Mercia, I can't quote you for some reason. The site is running a bit slow on my machine. 

Okay, I might be being a bit thick here. But if the employee issue is only for US residents, why can't we use our EINs on the new form?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

sarahdalton said:


> Mercia, I can't quote you for some reason. The site is running a bit slow on my machine.
> 
> Okay, I might be being a bit thick here. But if the employee issue is only for US residents, why can't we use our EINs on the new form?


As I understand it (from checking the IRS website) EINs for non-US citizen and non-US-based publishers should only have been given out to those running legally formed companies or partnerships. The exception for having employees is a matter of paying tax to the US, where what you are trying to do is avoid paying tax to them because a tax treaty with your country says you should not pay tax on royalties. If you have formed an LLC it can use the new W8-BEN-E form, otherwise you fill in the Feb 214 revision W8-BEN form with an ITIN. If you were given an EIN when they were more lax and subsequently form a company then you need a new EIN as you need a new one every time you change the legal structure of your business. My guess is that the form changed to force people who should never have been given an EIN to apply for an ITIN.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Do-You-Need-a-New-EIN


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

sarahdalton said:


> Mercia, I can't quote you for some reason. The site is running a bit slow on my machine.
> 
> Okay, I might be being a bit thick here. But if the employee issue is only for US residents, why can't we use our EINs on the new form?


I finally found my ITIN details, YAY! Just thought I would tell you though it's a bit irrelevant now. I found the original EIN letter as well and it actually says that I CAN use it for my personal AND business tax issues. The real problem here is the nature of information and databases I think. If the form lets me put my name and EIN in the boxes it would be fine, but the new form wants company name NOT real person name. If I put my company name in, it won't match the name the IRS have linked to that number you see?

Basically, the new form has fixed an error they had going in the system for a long time. Individuals should have been using ITIN even though the IRS gave out EIN. Now they have fixed it I can't see how to use EIN that isn't linked to a company name. The new W8Ben-E is really horribly complicated with acronyms out the *ss that I don't understand, and you have to choose one of many types of organisation. The simplest seems to be corporation though over here in the UK we would probably choose limited company or LTD for short.


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## bardeh (Nov 3, 2013)

So what does this mean for people like me who have submitted an EIN and the w8-BEN to all the retailers? They don't withhold any of my earnings now. Do these changes mean that they will want an ITIN from me, or is this speculation thus far?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

bardeh said:


> So what does this mean for people like me who have submitted an EIN and the w8-BEN to all the retailers? They don't withhold any of my earnings now. Do these changes mean that they will want an ITIN from me, or is this speculation thus far?


I'm in this situation. I figure that since my EIN will need to be renewed after three years anyway (and presumably then they won't let me since I'm not a company), I'd better get on with applying for an ITIN. Also, Amazon might decide to start cracking down a bit, so I want to be prepared. Basically, at all costs I want to avoid having to claim money back off the IRS.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

I've had an EIN for more than three years (actually several). Nobody ever asked me to renew it, nobody started withholding tax....just sayin'


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

Mercia McMahon said:


> No the Passport Office certified copy is posted to IRS along with the W7 form and the original mailed out letter from the retailer. The embassy is a way to avoid needing to get a certified copy and also means they post it to their colleagues in the US. The London embassy has an IRS office inside it that is why the embassy can be involved.


Ahh, thank you! This seems mildly less stressful.
Of course, since I have a non-UK passport I may have to trot down to my own embassy to get a certified copy, unless the local passport office can do me one anyway. What a mess.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Pelagios said:


> I've had an EIN for more than three years (actually several). Nobody ever asked me to renew it, nobody started withholding tax....just sayin'


She didn't mean renewing the EIN itself, but the W8 info lasts three years. When it's time to update that, there might be trouble because the new forms ask different questions.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Sorry, yes, that's what I meant.


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## Kia Zi Shiru (Feb 7, 2011)

Okay, it seems I'm fine then. I established a company here before I got my EIN and the EIN has both my name and my company name on it. So that should be okay.
since I'm in the Netherlands and not the UK, some of the stuff here seemed like chinese to me, but these last few posts calmed me down


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> W8s are only valid for three years.


Does anybody know, will the retailers request the renewal or is this something everybody has to keep an eye on (because I have a feeling that my W8 is older then three years. I'll have to check it)?

When I was acquiring ITIN, the hassle and the cost of getting verified copy of the passport at the embassy overweighted the hassle and the cost of cancelling the old passport and getting a new one, so I send them my original passport, which I got back just fine. Because of that, getting ITIN didn't take a lot of effort, it did take a lot of time though.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Ok...so here is where I'm at.

I just got off the phone with a really nice lady at IRS in the colonies!! and she gave me a brand new EIN  for my business identity. Lucky I found my old ITIN because she wanted it not my other EIN. Phew!

Anyway, I am all set for my new incorporated life.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

elalond said:


> Does anybody know, will the retailers request the renewal or is this something everybody has to keep an eye on (because I have a feeling that my W8 is older then three years. I'll have to check it)?


As far as I understand it, I don't think that the W8 BEN necessarily needs renewal automatically every three years. According to an IRS Bulletin dated 2014-04-22:

"Under certain circumstances described in § 1.1441--1(e)(4)(ii)(B) of the final regulations, a withholding certificate or documentary evidence may remain valid indefinitely until a withholding agent knows or has reason to know of a change in circumstances that makes any information on the withholding certificate incorrect. These circumstance include when a withholding agent obtains a TIN for a payee and reports a payment to the payee annually on Form 1042--S, as well as withholding certificates provided by certain foreign entities such as intermediaries, flow-through entities, foreign central banks, and integral parts of foreign governments."

In short (my understanding) -- so long as you have provided a TIN and payments continue to be made and reported to the IRS, the W8 BEN should remain valid indefinitely unless you change circumstances eg. by moving to the US.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> She didn't mean renewing the EIN itself, but the W8 info lasts three years. When it's time to update that, there might be trouble because the new forms ask different questions.


Ah, okay. Interesting. Same thing still applies though, I've sent W8-BENs more than three years ago to Apple, Amazon and others, and never been asked to renew them. Either way, not worried, my EINs relate to my companies.



> In short (my understanding) -- so long as you have provided a TIN and payments continue to be made and reported to the IRS, the W8 BEN should remain valid indefinitely unless you change circumstances eg. by moving to the US.


Yes, that sounds logical, and matches my own experience to date with several legal entities.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Anyway, I am all set for my new incorporated life.


Congratulations. You'll be needing a boardroom and a big cigar.


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## Leanne King (Oct 2, 2012)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> Anyway, I am all set for my new incorporated life.


Don't forget to keep all your restaurant receipts etc, all valid expenses


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## sarahdalton (Mar 15, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I finally found my ITIN details, YAY! Just thought I would tell you though it's a bit irrelevant now. I found the original EIN letter as well and it actually says that I CAN use it for my personal AND business tax issues. The real problem here is the nature of information and databases I think. If the form lets me put my name and EIN in the boxes it would be fine, but the new form wants company name NOT real person name. If I put my company name in, it won't match the name the IRS have linked to that number you see?
> 
> Basically, the new form has fixed an error they had going in the system for a long time. Individuals should have been using ITIN even though the IRS gave out EIN. Now they have fixed it I can't see how to use EIN that isn't linked to a company name. The new W8Ben-E is really horribly complicated with acronyms out the *ss that I don't understand, and you have to choose one of many types of organisation. The simplest seems to be corporation though over here in the UK we would probably choose limited company or LTD for short.


Thanks, this makes sense.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pass this over to my accountant to sort out. I've been thinking about going the limited company route for a while, because I might end up going up a tax bracket this year and it would mean I pay less tax. I wonder if my accountant can sort the forms out as well. I would gladly pay extra. I hate those forms!

Congrats on finding the ITIN by the way!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

NAsh said:


> Okay, so if you live in the Great North of GB you can send a certified copy of your passport down to the embassy ? Or do we really have to descend on the capital en masse?


I went to a lawyer (the list of approved one is on the IRS website). Gave them $175 or something, and I have a ITIN that I can use. No fuss. No muss. None of this foolishness.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I went to a lawyer (the list of approved one is on the IRS website). Gave them $175 or something, and I have a ITIN that I can use. No fuss. No muss. None of this foolishness.


I phoned the IRS. Cost= one phone cool


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

Does this change to the W8 form have any connection with the message I received from Amazon KDP at the beginning of this month:

"*Tax Information Invalid.* Tax information submitted for your account does not match Internal Revenue Service (IRS) records. Be sure to update your tax information by to avoid delays in the payment of royalty from sale on Amazon."

It was fine when I submitted it in early February...


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

JRHenderson said:


> Does this change to the W8 form have any connection with the message I received from Amazon KDP at the beginning of this month:
> 
> "*Tax Information Invalid.* Tax information submitted for your account does not match Internal Revenue Service (IRS) records. Be sure to update your tax information by to avoid delays in the payment of royalty from sale on Amazon."
> 
> It was fine when I submitted it in early February...


The danger of filing the old W8-BEN with an EIN that IRS probably should not have given out is that the IRS could at any stage review the status of that EIN.



Daphne said:


> In short (my understanding) -- so long as you have provided a TIN and payments continue to be made and reported to the IRS, the W8 BEN should remain valid indefinitely unless you change circumstances eg. by moving to the US.


It is not the W8 that is temporary but the ITIN that has become temporary. They now expire at the end of the third US tax year after your ITIN was submitted. Many of you will already have an indefinite ITIN so do not need to worry about it running out. My ITIN was issued this month and lasts until 31 December 2018.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2014)

and all of this pallaver just to get the money that is rightfully yours. tuh!


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> The danger of filing the old W8-BEN with an EIN that IRS probably should not have given out is that the IRS could at any stage review the status of that EIN.


Thanks for replying Mercia. It is troubling. I've gone through and filled out Amazon's online W8 again, and it seemed to go through okay. But then it seemed to do that last time....  I'll just have to wait and see.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Daphne said:


> As far as I understand it, I don't think that the W8 BEN necessarily needs renewal automatically every three years. According to an IRS Bulletin dated 2014-04-22:
> 
> "Under certain circumstances described in § 1.1441--1(e)(4)(ii)(B) of the final regulations, a withholding certificate or documentary evidence may remain valid indefinitely until a withholding agent knows or has reason to know of a change in circumstances that makes any information on the withholding certificate incorrect. These circumstance include when a withholding agent obtains a TIN for a payee and reports a payment to the payee annually on Form 1042--S, as well as withholding certificates provided by certain foreign entities such as intermediaries, flow-through entities, foreign central banks, and integral parts of foreign governments."
> 
> In short (my understanding) -- so long as you have provided a TIN and payments continue to be made and reported to the IRS, the W8 BEN should remain valid indefinitely unless you change circumstances eg. by moving to the US.


I see. Thank you.


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## 73735 (Dec 2, 2013)

Apparently, Vertical Scope doesn't seem to think they need to comply with the right to be forgotten.


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not sure why people are assuming that the IRS was mistakenly giving out EINs to foreign individuals. I just pulled out my SS-4 application form (I applied over the phone, but printed out the form for my reference while I was making the call) and page two lists the criteria for an EIN. This page is titled "Do I Need an EIN?" and the following condition is listed as a valid reason for getting an EIN:



> *If the applicant* is a foreign person needing an EIN to comply with IRS withholding regulations *AND* Needs an EIN to complete a Form W-8 (other than Form W-8ECI), avoid withholding on portfolio assets or claim tax treaty benefits *THEN* Complete lines ... (SSN or ITIN optional).


So right on the SS-4 application form it stated that foreign individuals could apply for an EIN. It's clear that the rules have now changed, but we don't know yet if the IRS is going to be applying that change retroactively. The IRS knows I have an EIN, they know I'm a sole proprietor, and they have my mailing address. I'm sure they'll let me know if my EIN is no longer valid.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

Mercia McMahon said:


> It is not the W8 that is temporary but the ITIN that has become temporary. They now expire at the end of the third US tax year after your ITIN was submitted. Many of you will already have an indefinite ITIN so do not need to worry about it running out. My ITIN was issued this month and lasts until 31 December 2018.


You are quite right - ITINs issued on January 1st 2013 onwards have an expiration date --the IRS FAQs states 5 years:

"The ITIN expiration period will be five years, including the year of assignment. The month and day for the expiration period will always be December 31. For example, an ITIN assigned in calendar year 2013 will have an expiration date of 12/31/2017, regardless of what month and day in 2013 you were assigned the ITIN."

W-8BENs do also have an expiry date (3 years) unless certain conditions apply. From IRS Instructions:

"Expiration of Form W-8BEN. Generally, a Form W-8BEN will remain in effect for purposes of establishing foreign status for a period starting on the date the form is signed and ending on the last day of the third succeeding calendar year, unless a change in circumstances makes any information on the form incorrect. For example, a Form W-8BEN signed on September 30, 2015, remains valid through December 31, 2018."

But the circumstance I mentioned in earlier post which mean it is indefinite will probably apply to many.

I agree with Tobias Roote's post above about the whole process being a palaver.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Daphne said:


> I agree with Tobias Roote's post above about the whole process being a palaver.


Agreed. It's such a palaver in fact, I now have the old type of EIN, the NEW type of EIN, and a flipping ITIN dated back to 2001 or something. At least I am covered now. If new channels come along, they will ask questions from the new forms. My new EIN should be save me some trouble


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> I phoned the IRS. Cost= one phone cool


That's lovely. For those of us who are audited every year, due to the work we do, we can't go that route when we don't qualify for EINs.


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## KarlYork (Jan 14, 2014)

SadieH said:


> Here is the link to the instructions for filling out the form.
> 
> http://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben/ch02.html
> 
> ...


  LOL. Round and round we go. I'm going to have to make some calls I think. This info you quoted Sadie takes us back to the earlier discussion on this thread about the UTR (UK tax ID number for those of us who do Self-Assessment Tax Returns - and I guess that's all of us, unless the tax on book sales is taken under the PAYE code). Of course, each non-US nation will have its own version (like you said, SIN for Canada). Using my UTR would make this super super simple. (Unfortunately, unlike the UK Tax ads on TV, tax usually IS very taxing! So I cannot believe it's going to be this simple. I'll drop a line to HMRC at some point to see what they say about it.)

Thanks for posting this info though, Sadie. I do remember reading that on the Instructions now you mention it.


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## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

Karl

Agreed - this is fascinating and potentially could make our lives hugely simpler.

Do we also need somehow to check with the IRS what they are expecting to see? Or would they even care, as long as it was a unique repeatable number, like a NINo?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Suzanna Medeiros said:


> I'm not sure why people are assuming that the IRS was mistakenly giving out EINs to foreign individuals.


Because the thread is about what is happening now that EINs cannot be used on a W8-BEN (Feb 2014 Revision) and sole proprietor is not a category on the W8-BEN-E. There are some minor categories of people who also got EIN, but essentially they were designed in terms of foreigners for those who had legally incorporated (including into a partnership). All the other reasons for getting an EIN on http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Do-You-Need-an-EIN are related to taxation issues within the US, not claiming Tax Treaty benefits to avoid (or limit) withholding tax.


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## Daphne (May 27, 2010)

KarlYork said:


> LOL. Round and round we go. I'm going to have to make some calls I think. This info you quoted Sadie takes us back to the earlier discussion on this thread about the UTR (UK tax ID number for those of us who do Self-Assessment Tax Returns - and I guess that's all of us, unless the tax on book sales is taken under the PAYE code). Of course, each non-US nation will have its own version (like you said, SIN for Canada). Using my UTR would make this super super simple. (Unfortunately, unlike the UK Tax ads on TV, tax usually IS very taxing! So I cannot believe it's going to be this simple. I'll drop a line to HMRC at some point to see what they say about it.)


Might it be worth phoning the IRS office at the US Embassy in London* to ask if putting a UTR in section 6 of the new W-8BEN is sufficient to stop tax withholding without entering any anything in section 5? It seems that this question will only be answered when somebody actually tries it. The old W-8BEN made the inclusion of a Foreign tax identifying number "optional" but it now says "see instructions" - although the instructions didn't seem to answer the question clearly. I will be interested to hear the outcome (although I went the ITIN route years ago when there seemed to be no alternative.)

*http://london.usembassy.gov/irs/index.html


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I'll be interested to hear if anyone has any luck calling the IRS office in London.  I tried several times back when I was trying to get an answer as to whether or not you had to file a US tax return if you were a UK resident with an EIN or ITIN & didn't owe any US tax.  All I got was an answerphone with their opening hours.

I wrote to them, and got my own letter back with an unsigned answer scribbled on it (to say that I wouldn't need to fill in a tax return with either).

They aren't exactly communicative!


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

SadieH said:


> My understanding of this is, if there is a tax treaty with your country of residence, you use that tax number - ie. Canadians would use their SIN number. Of course, I am not a professional anything. This is just my interpretation of the instructions for filling out the new form.


Remember that those instructions are for people who are filling in the form for a variety of reasons. What you should have quoted is http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Claiming-Tax-Treaty-Benefits where it states:



> A reduced rate of withholding applies to a foreign person that provides a Form W-8BEN claiming a reduced rate of withholding under an income tax treaty only if the foreign person provides a U.S. Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) (except for certain marketable securities) and certifies that:
> It is a resident of a treaty country;
> It is the beneficial owner of the income;
> If it is an entity, it derives the income within the meaning of Section 894 of the Internal Revenue Code (it is not fiscally transparent); and
> It meets any limitation on benefits provision contained in the treaty, if applicable.


As you will be told on every US-based book retailer site you need an EIN/ITIN to avoid (or limit) withholding tax. You were quoting from a form that is also used by those claiming Tax Treaty Benefits for certain marketable securities, so the ITIN could not be made compulsory.


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## jenminkman (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't know if this will help anyone, but I sent off a whole slew of paper forms last month using the new W8-BEN form (rev. Feb 2014, printed from the IRS website) and put my EIN in on the SSN or ITIN line, mentioning between brackets that it was an EIN. Everybody accepted it - D2D, Smashwords, ACX, All Romance, and CreateSpace. Amazon had their own tax interview form online and I also used the EIN there. None of them withhold the 30% anymore. So for everybody who already has an EIN number, this may be good news.


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## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Remember that those instructions are for people who are filling in the form for a variety of reasons. What you should have quoted is http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Claiming-Tax-Treaty-Benefits where it states:
> 
> As you will be told on every US-based book retailer site you need an EIN/ITIN to avoid (or limit) withholding tax. You were quoting from a form that is also used by those claiming Tax Treaty Benefits for certain marketable securities, so the ITIN could not be made compulsory.


Well, yes ... but that page is dated "Page Last Reviewed or Updated: 25-Jun-2013", which means it doesn't take into account the redesign of the W-8 family of forms, which is what has kicked off this whole discussion ...


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

jenminkman said:


> I don't know if this will help anyone, but I sent off a whole slew of paper forms last month using the new W8-BEN form (rev. Feb 2014, printed from the IRS website) and put my EIN in on the SSN or ITIN line, mentioning between brackets that it was an EIN. Everybody accepted it - D2D, Smashwords, ACX, All Romance, and CreateSpace. Amazon had their own tax interview form online and I also used the EIN there. None of them withhold the 30% anymore. So for everybody who already has an EIN number, this may be good news.


I'm hoping this is the case, because this is a headache I really don't need right now. I'm going to go ahead and send in my old form for the remaining retailers (Createspace and Google) and hope for the best.


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## KarlYork (Jan 14, 2014)

It has all become a tad "matrixy" - 


> *What was said was for you, and you alone*.


Everybody seems to have been told something different, or done something different; different form, different ID, etc. Crazy! I'll "belt-and-brace" it by beginning to investigate how to get a certified copy of my passport for a W-7, and take it from there.


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

AlexBrantham said:


> Well, yes ... but that page is dated "Page Last Reviewed or Updated: 25-Jun-2013", which means it doesn't take into account the redesign of the W-8 family of forms, which is what has kicked off this whole discussion ...


Maybe. I've have checked the instructions for the 2006 form and it has changed from requiring an ITIN for Treaty Benefits to the current advice.But this FAQ page updated in Jan 2014 still says that an ITIN is required and the retailers all still expect it (or an EIN).

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-International-Individual-Tax-Matters#ApplicationforIRSITIN


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

I'm afraid that W8-BENs do now have a three year lifespan 


> Expiration of Form W-8BEN. Generally, a Form
> W-8BEN will remain in effect for purposes of establishing
> foreign status for a period starting on the date the form is
> signed and ending on the last day of the third succeeding
> ...


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/iw8ben--2014.pdf

It means my ITIN (if it is even needed now) will last one year longer than these W8-BENs I am sending off now.


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## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Maybe. I've have checked the instructions for the 2006 form and it has changed from requiring an ITIN for Treaty Benefits to the current advice.But this FAQ page updated in Jan 2014 still says that an ITIN is required and the retailers all still expect it (or an EIN).
> 
> http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-International-Individual-Tax-Matters#ApplicationforIRSITIN


Ah, the joys of the internet and all of those contradictory documents! So, the one you've just linked to is very clear. It says that in our circumstances that you must have an ITIN (NB - no reference to EIN, even though use of an EIN seems to have become a standard practice at least in our profession). It also says "In order to claim a reduced rate or exemption from tax under an income tax treaty, the Form W-8BEN must include a valid U.S. taxpayer identification number."

But the current "Instructions for W-8BEN", Feb 2014, says "To claim certain treaty benefits, you must complete line 5 by submitting an SSN or ITIN, or line 6 by providing a foreign tax identification number (foreign TIN)." and "If you are claiming treaty benefits, you are generally required to provide an ITIN if you do not provide a tax identifying number issued to you by your jurisdiction of tax residence on line 6."

Still confused.


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## KarenNZ (May 2, 2013)

You still need *either* an EIN or an ITIN. An EIN is available to you if you are a sole-trader (sole-proprietor) as well as for those with their own company (LLC) - it says this on the SS4 form which is what you either faxed, posted or went through on the phone when you rang for your EIN.

You still fill in the form W8BEN.

When you get to the part when it asks you for an SSN or ITIN, you *don't put your EIN here* because it is *not an SSN or an ITIN*. If you do have an ITIN then you put it in here! You should have already filled in either a tax interview with Amazon, or some kind of tax information section at other sites, where you will have to enter your EIN or ITIN. This is where you enter your EIN. Don't panic about what is or is not on the form. Just fill in the bits that apply to you.

You go on to fill in your tax number for your country of residence in number 6. For New Zealand this is your IRD number, for the U.K this is your Unique Taxpayer Reference (UTR), which you should have received when you registered as a sole trader. For Australia it is TFN or ABN.

If you don't want to put in your local tax number the information suggests that you go on to put in your date of birth. I don't know what happens if you do this and I don't know why you would not want to just fill in your tax number from your country. You want to get paid, after all.

Then follow through to enter the details 'Claim of Tax Treaty Benefits'.

For line 9, you only need to your country of residence for tax purposes. Line 10 leave blank.

If your EIN was issued to your LLC it is classified as a disregarded entity. A disregarded entity owned by an individual is classified as a sole-proprietor by the IRS. So you still fill in the W8BEN and not the W8BEN-e. They are interested in who is the beneficial owner and therefore the eligibility for tax withholding exemptions. Whether you have employees or not has nothing to do with it.

W8BEN-e is for *entities*. This means that the entity will probably have more than one beneficial owner; be a trust, partnership etc. This won't apply to many people and if it does you probably have an accountant.

Your W8BEN is valid for three years from the date you sign it or until any of the circumstances are considered to have changed on it. For instance, if you move from one country to another and your tax residence status changes. Moving address within the same country does not count. Before the three years are up you should be prompted to re-file the W8BEN with the company that administers your withholding e.g. Amazon. If they don't, it is best practice to have made a forward note in your business diary that the re-file is necessary.


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## AlexBrantham (Feb 27, 2014)

Karen - thank you, that was a very helpful and full reply. It even made some sort of sense!


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## Andrzej Tucholski (Jan 4, 2014)

And what if a writer has a business (and therefore can get ITIN, it's all legit) but sells books as himself, as a private person? There's no answer to this one.


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## Nymirra (Mar 15, 2014)

Thank you so much, Karen. I've honestly, perhaps irrationally, been worried sick over this the last few days. That post explains things very well, and calmed me down a bit too. 

Many thanks and e-hugs from here.


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## Philip Harris (Dec 15, 2013)

Just to add another bit of information to this. I rang the IRS yesterday and got an EIN as a Canadian Sole Proprietor selling ebooks for the purposes of filling in a W8 form. It was all very straightforward and there was no indication that I couldn't use it for that purpose. So, if EINs aren't valid any more then the IRS haven't told their EIN department.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Philip Harris said:


> Just to add another bit of information to this. I rang the IRS yesterday and got an EIN as a Canadian Sole Proprietor selling ebooks for the purposes of filling in a W8 form. It was all very straightforward and there was no indication that I couldn't use it for that purpose. So, if EINs aren't valid any more then the IRS haven't told their EIN department.


This entire thread is based upon the actual online forms, not opinion. In my OPINION, any number validated by IRS SHOULD be accepted. It's only a number in a database assigned to a person in the real world, but bureaucrats don't really live in the real world. They live in a world of numbers, data, and paperwork. SO if you look at the forms and answer the questions you'll be fine. If they ask for an ITIN, USE a bleeding ITIN! And if they ask for an EIN, use one! THen you won't have any problems.

The UTR thing WILL NOT work... just saying.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2014)

Mark E. Cooper said:


> This entire thread is based upon the actual online forms, not opinion. In my OPINION, any number validated by IRS SHOULD be accepted. It's only a number in a database assigned to a person in the real world, but bureaucrats don't really live in the real world. They live in a world of numbers, data, and paperwork. SO if you look at the forms and answer the questions you'll be fine. If they ask for an ITIN, USE a bleeding ITIN! And if they ask for an EIN, use one! THen you won't have any problems.
> 
> The UTR thing WILL NOT work... just saying.


Listen up. Before this thing goes full circle I will share with you a tip I learned. IF you are asked for an ITIN number and the operator says its is unacceptable. RING OFF and try again with another operator. I didn't use my UTR number with IRS, I DID tell them I ran my own publishing company and was self employed. I only used the UTR where it says to do so on the W8 form on Amazon. Reading between some of the posts on here I did TWO things right 1) I told them I had a publishing company and 2) I applied my UTR number. Either way I believe I have met the terms of the taxation treaty in full. 

As with many things. Interpretation is key and dependant on who you talk to.  As in all things D Y O R (Do Your Own Research )


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Philip Harris said:


> Just to add another bit of information to this. I rang the IRS yesterday and got an EIN as a Canadian Sole Proprietor selling ebooks for the purposes of filling in a W8 form. It was all very straightforward and there was no indication that I couldn't use it for that purpose. So, if EINs aren't valid any more then the IRS haven't told their EIN department.


My ITIN application (Using a Smashwords letter) was handled by the local IRS office in the London Embassy in late February, so after all these changes came in and nothing was said to me. The IRS website has contradictory advice - basically the W8-BEN instructions contradicts every other piece of advice I could get from their site. Having worked as a civil servant, though, I can tell you that what is done by a federal worker is not necessarily a reflection of the actual policy, as you tend to go onto autopilot until finally your supervisor says, "Didn't you get the memo." Thankfully government depts are reluctant to admit mistakes so if you get through the system despite it not being the policy they will seldom go back and apply what should have happened. There is always the danger, though, that they will, but governments like judges are sent to try us.

Karen is right, though, that single person entities should use W8-BEN. I missed this from the front page of the instruction sheet:



> Foreign individuals should use Form W-8BEN to
> document their foreign status and claim any applicable
> treaty benefits for chapter 3 purposes (including a foreign
> individual that is the single member of an entity that is
> ...


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf


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## Claudia King (Oct 27, 2012)

Thank you, Karen! I've been stressing over this too. So, just to be crystal clear, those of us with an EIN should still be okay using it to claim exemption from tax withholding, but we'll only be filling it in online with our distributors rather than physically writing it on the new W8BEN form?


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Claudia King said:


> Thank you, Karen! I've been stressing over this too. So, just to be crystal clear, those of us with an EIN should still be okay using it to claim exemption from tax withholding, but we'll only be filling it in online with our distributors rather than physically writing it on the new W8BEN form?


Some distributors have online filing (e.g., Amazon and Google, although Google have a glitch in their one at the moment) others require you to mail the form (e.g., Nook Press, Smashwords).


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## Claudia King (Oct 27, 2012)

Mercia McMahon said:


> Some distributors have online filing (e.g., Amazon and Google, although Google have a glitch in their one at the moment) others require you to mail the form (e.g., Nook Press, Smashwords).


On my Smashwords page they have a separate field to fill in your EIN/ITIN online, along with requiring a paper copy of the form being mailed to them. I would assume that, even though they require the physical form (without an EIN printed on it), your EIN will still count towards your exemption from withholdings if you fill it in on the digital form? At least, that's what I'm implying from Karen's post.


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## KarenNZ (May 2, 2013)

Claudia King said:


> Thank you, Karen! I've been stressing over this too. So, just to be crystal clear, those of us with an EIN should still be okay using it to claim exemption from tax withholding, but we'll only be filling it in on line with our distributors rather than physically writing it on the new W8BEN form?


No problem! Thanks to everyone else who also thanked me  I see a lot of panic here for no reason. Nothing has changed - only the IRS has updated their form, ostensibly to make the process smoother. The only change is that you don't need to enter the EIN on the new W8BEN form. You should be able to enter it online when you sign up for your publisher account at the various vendors.

You are fine to use the EIN as per normal. The tax department is not withdrawing it and it has not been issued in error. The confusion is on the part of the US Tax department who like to make things unclear. There are a number of Tax Information Numbers (TINs) you can get via them. For international authors, you need either the ITIN or EIN. *I*TIN is for *i*ndividuals, *E*IN for those with *e*mployees but including sole traders. It doesn't matter which one you have at the end of the day, but it is, as we all know, easier to phone for the EIN as it is instant.

I have been registered with most of the vendors for a couple of years and recall that they mostly all had places where you entered the details online. Nook, I'm not sure because I still can't publish directly too but I am sure they will have something similar. You have to follow up with the W8BEN form - some accept a scanned and uploaded copy, some via email and the others a hard copy posted.

You can be absolutely sure that if the requirements had suddenly changed, the vendors will have *let us know* and Amazon would not be still recommending us to phone for an EIN.

Just fill in the form as needed. Don't worry about what the last form required or what has changed. All you are doing is confirming your local tax details so that the tax treaty with your country can be applied. If you don't know your tax number for your own business or can't get it to work then you should skip that part and enter your date of birth in the box as directed by the form's instruction sheet.

It's also possible to contact the vendors by email to ask for their exact requirements. Most of them are pretty good at getting back with the answers.

I'm not on KBoards often these days, so anyone with further questions should catch me over in the erotica forum www.eroticaauthors.org


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

Claudia King said:


> On my Smashwords page they have a separate field to fill in your EIN/ITIN online, along with requiring a paper copy of the form being mailed to them. I would assume that, even though they require the physical form (without an EIN printed on it), your EIN will still count towards your exemption from withholdings if you fill it in on the digital form? At least, that's what I'm implying from Karen's post.


The instructions to the new form implies that ITINs are no longer required for claiming treaty benefits, so it does not matter that an EIN is not on the form. Your exemption from withholding tax at Smashwords is determined by that form, but Smashwords also wants EIN/ITIN for their job of reporting to IRS. Or it may just be that Smashwords have not got round to fixing their website (they are notoriously slow on the web development front). As far as I know all retailers are still requiring EIN/ITIN - it will take time for their systems to change to the new policy (which is not even evident on the IRS website except for the instructions to that form). This may alter as the February form change beds down, but for now if you want Smashwords payments without withholding tax you have to send the form and digitally fill in the EIN/ITIN. For the record Nook Press have a similar process of asking you to add the TIN to the website but requiring a physical form sent to them. Until a retailer changes their policy you have to follow their current one.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

KarenNZ said:


> No problem! Thanks to everyone else who also thanked me  I see a lot of panic here for no reason. Nothing has changed - only the IRS has updated their form, ostensibly to make the process smoother. The only change is that you don't need to enter the EIN on the new W8BEN form. You should be able to enter it online when you sign up for your publisher account at the various vendors.
> 
> You are fine to use the EIN as per normal. The tax department is not withdrawing it and it has not been issued in error. The confusion is on the part of the US Tax department who like to make things unclear. There are a number of Tax Information Numbers (TINs) you can get via them. For international authors, you need either the ITIN or EIN. *I*TIN is for *i*ndividuals, *E*IN for those with *e*mployees but including sole traders. It doesn't matter which one you have at the end of the day, but it is, as we all know, easier to phone for the EIN as it is instant.
> 
> ...


EIN is for Emplo*yers* not Emplo*yees*, but I agree that online forms are not, as yet, affected. The problem is places like D2D and (I think Createspace) who use the paper form which specifically asks for EIN for W8Ben-E and ITIN or SSN for W8-BEN. I agree there is no need for panic, but there is need for individuals to get themselves the ITIN or if they are incorporated now (like me) to get a new EIN over the phone which I did. That's all.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

Well, just to confuse the issue further, I've been in touch with D2D as I wanted a letter on headed paper to send off for an ITIN, and they told me that we sole traders no longer have to fill in a W-8BEN; instead we fill in a W-8ECI. I've emailed them to clarify what the form means by "Do not use this form for a beneficial owner solely claiming foreign status or treaty benefits".

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8eci.pdf


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## 75845 (Jan 1, 1970)

One more reason for me to do nothing with my recently acquired D2D account. That form begins:


> Note. Persons submitting this form must file an annual U.S. income tax return to report income claimed to be effectively
> connected with a U.S. trade or business (see instructions).


This is not the correct form.


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

There should probably be a thread called "all about taxes."  Good info about the change to the W8-BEN form.

This should also be a reminder that, if you are a US person, and you hire someone, say some artist, to do some work for you, you're on the hook for reporting that to the IRS once it's over $600 for the year. It doesn't matter that they're not your employee. Use the 1099-MISC and you'll get their tax info on a W-9. If they are a foreign person, you'll be in the same boat as Amazon and you'll need their ITIN / EIN and file 1042-S at the end of the year. It's also the total payment for the year, not the amount of a given payment. So if someone in the UK (or wherever) does some cover designs for you, you should be reporting this on the 1042-S. You are the payer, they are the payee.

I'm not a tax expert but this is how I've seen it and what I've done.


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## Julie Morrigan (Jun 29, 2011)

Mercia McMahon said:


> I'm afraid that W8-BENs do now have a three year lifespan
> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/iw8ben--2014.pdf
> 
> It means my ITIN (if it is even needed now) will last one year longer than these W8-BENs I am sending off now.


With regard to the three year lifespan, I submitted my form in September 2011, which means going by what is written in the IRS instructions for the W8-BEN it should be good until the end of this year. However, Amazon recently started withholding 30% revenue again and are being less than helpful about sorting things out. I plan to go back to them again about it, so I'll post here with the results.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

OK, so it turns out that CreateSpace never received the W8BEN I submitted last November and they've been taxing me all year, so a) that's just great  and b) I'm going to have to submit another one. But of course the nice chaps at the IRS have completely redesigned the form since then so I can't just bung another copy in the post. Can any kind soul point me in the direction of a handy guide to filling in the new one that doesn't involve me having to wade through the IRS instructions?


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> OK, so it turns out that CreateSpace never received the W8BEN I submitted last November...


Lydniz: Did you submit it electronically or did they make you mail a paper copy?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm pretty sure I mailed a paper copy, but I don't remember getting confirmation that they'd received it. Also I'm having trouble finding out how to submit it again. They don't like to make things easy for you, do they?

I could have sorted it out months ago if I'd checked my remittance advice notices properly but I didn't. Boo.


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh hell. I thought that my W-8BEN submission to Amazon would cover CreateSpace as well—but if you're submitting a separate form, then it doesn't look like that's the case. What a bloody nightmare.

If only Kobo was the biggest-selling platform; the Canadian government doesn't help itself to your money.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

JRHenderson said:


> Oh hell. I thought that my W-8BEN submission to Amazon would cover CreateSpace as well--but if you're submitting a separate form, then it doesn't look like that's the case. What a bloody nightmare.
> 
> If only Kobo was the biggest-selling platform; the Canadian government doesn't help itself to your money.


No, you definitely have to submit separately to CreateSpace.


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## xoxo (Sep 6, 2013)

Hey, I have a related question if it's ok.

Does this update on IRS' webpage mean what I think it means:

*"Employer ID Numbers (EINs) can no longer be obtained by telephone.--21-May-2014

You can no longer apply for Employer ID Numbers (EINs) by telephone. If you do not have an EIN, you may apply for one online from the "Employer ID Numbers (EINs) Application." You may also apply for an EIN by faxing or mailing Form SS-4, Application for Employer Identification Number, to the IRS."*

The page in question is http://www.irs.gov/uac/Recent-Development-05-212014-F2290

Does it apply only to US taxpayers (as it mentions the online version that at least until recently was only for US residents) or does it mean us Internationals also?


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## JRHenderson (Dec 4, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> No, you definitely have to submit separately to CreateSpace.


Okay Lydniz, thanks for clarifying...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

And CreateSpace won't give any hints as to how to fill in the new version of the form, either - I asked.


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## MajesticMonkey (Sep 3, 2013)

As someone else mentioned here. I just filled out my EIN where it says ITIN or SSN on the new form.

B&N accepted this afaik, D2D was okay with this as well so...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

sibelhodge said:


> I don't understand that new form at all! It's gobbledygook! The old one was easy peasy. Amazon even had a link on KDP to one already filled out, which is what I need for this one! :O xx


I'm taking a deep breath and diving in this evening. I'm even going to read the IRS instructions. (But first I might take a look and see if KDP have an updated link...)

ETA: So this is what you Americans consider to be "instructions", yes?

_ In 2010, Congress passed the Hiring Incentives 
to Restore Employment Act of 2010, P. L. 111-147 (the 
HIRE Act), which added chapter 4 of Subtitle A 
(chapter 4) to the Code, consisting of sections 1471 
through 1474 of the Code and commonly referred to as 
"FATCA" or "chapter 4". Under chapter 4, participating 
foreign financial institutions (FFIs) and certain 
registered-deemed compliant FFIs are generally required 
to identify their U.S. account holders, regardless of 
whether a payment subject to withholding is made to the 
account. The IRS has published regulations that provide 
due diligence, withholding, and reporting rules for both 
U.S. withholding agents and FFIs under chapter 4.
This form, along with Form W-8ECI, W-8EXP, and 
W-8IMY, has been updated to reflect the documentation 
requirements of chapter 4. In particular, this Form 
W-8BEN is now used exclusively by individuals. Entities 
documenting their foreign status, chapter 4 status, or 
making a claim of treaty benefits (if applicable) should use 
Form W-8BEN-E._


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> I'm taking a deep breath and diving in this evening. I'm even going to read the IRS instructions. (But first I might take a look and see if KDP have an updated link...)
> 
> ETA: So this is what you Americans consider to be "instructions", yes?
> 
> ...


Here it is in Welsh (Welsh-ish) - much clearer, and I don't even speak Welsh!

And neither does my sheepdog... 



> Yn 2010, pasiodd y Gyngres Cymhellion Llogi
> i Adfer Ddeddf Cyflogaeth 2010, PL 111-147 (y
> Deddf LLOGI), a ychwanegodd pennod 4 o Isdeitl A
> (pennod 4) i'r Cod, yn cynnwys adrannau 1471
> ...


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I might just copy that, Colin, and claim special status.

Actually, having looked through the instructions, I think this new version is actually easier. All I've had to give is my name, address, EIN and NI number and sign it. Although why they needed eight pages of instructions to tell me that is beyond me.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

Lydniz said:


> I might just copy that, Colin, and claim special status.
> 
> Actually, having looked through the instructions, I think this new version is actually easier. All I've had to give is my name, address, EIN and NI number and sign it. Although why they needed eight pages of instructions to tell me that is beyond me.


Being an Englishman in Wales, the only special status I can claim is as a persecuted minority....only joking - wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Green, green grass of home and all that. I love it here.

I wonder if the people who wrote the instructions were the same people who wrote the instruction leaflet for my new bargain-priced, Taiwanese combined grill and laser printer....

Anyway, enough manic mind burping. Thanks for EIN/tax form heads up.


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## Flopstick (Jul 19, 2011)

Help me out, someone.

I went down to the US Embassy on Tuesday (it was being guarded by G4S, so it's probably gone by now) hoping to get my ITIN all sorted. I got my ID validated and everything, but apparently I need a letter from Amazon confirming that I will have US income etc. - like the ones you can download - but I _also_ need to submit the envelope in which it arrived! I have a letter, but no envelope. Anyone know who I contact to get Amazon to send me a letter in an envelope, that I can then submit?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

sibelhodge said:


> This is the new form, isn't it? W8BENE? It is definitely not condensed. The old one was one page, this is 8! Argh!  xx http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf


Yes, that's the W8BEN-E. I filled in the W8BEN, which is just one page and simpler than the old version. I know some people think you need the -E version because the W8BEN doesn't mention an EIN, but the KDP help pages seem to think an EIN is fine, so that's what I put. (https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=AFIB5T5Q85C7J)


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## Debbie Bennett (Mar 25, 2011)

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/iw8ben--2014.pdf

says:

_Expiration of Form W-8BEN.
Generally, a Form W-8BEN will remain in effect for purposes of establishing foreign status for a period starting on the date the form is signed and ending on the last day of the third succeeding calendar year, unless a change in circumstances makes any information on the form incorrect. For example, a Form W-8BEN signed on September 30, 2015, remains valid through December 31, 2018.

However, under certain conditions a Form W-8BEN will remain in effect indefinitely until a change of circumstances occurs. To determine the period of validity for Form W-8BEN for purposes of chapter 4, see Regulations section 1.1471-3(c)(6)(ii). To determine the period of validity for Form W-8BEN for purposes of chapter 3, see Regulations section 1.1441-1(e)(4)(ii)._

More digging: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8bene.pdf

and: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/1.1441-1#e_4_ii 
which if you wade through it (about 2/3 down, at "(ii) Period of validity- ", implies that if your status, name and address don't change and you get at least one payment a year, that it's valid indefinitely...


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## M T McGuire (Dec 6, 2010)

Thank heavens I found this thread. It's October, 2014 and Amazon have just accepted my EIN and W-8BEN and stopped withholding. Now I have to try and do the same thing with Zazzle, Smashwords and iBooks. Since the old style W-8BEN is valid until the end of this year I was going to submit one of those. Does anyone know where I can download one? I have my copy of the Amazon one but it has all my details filled in (or out) in black ink, which is OK for Amazon but I gather is verboten. Do I just take the tippex to it, photocopy it and do it again or can anyone point me to a downloadable version of the 2006 form? Or does anyone have a blank copy they downloaded to print off which they could e-mail to me?

Cheers

MTM


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## Rebecca Bielawski (Jul 14, 2015)

I have a problem, I've read the thread and understand the issue (more or less) but in Spain WE HAVE NO PERMANENT TAX NUMBER as they have in other countries.  I have an EIN but I am an individual and not an entity so I can't fill in the W8BEN because I don't have a tax number and I can't fill in the W8BEN-E because I'm not an entity.  D2D said I could just fill in the W8BEN-E anyway but one part is extremely complicated about my FATCA status and I have no idea what to put.

Any ideas?


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Does anyone know if there are disadvantages to keeping the EIN and setting up a limited company with which to utilise that EIN? I can set up a limited company easily and cheaply, and would rather do this than go through the whole process anew.


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## MajesticMonkey (Sep 3, 2013)

thesmallprint said:


> Does anyone know if there are disadvantages to keeping the EIN and setting up a limited company with which to utilise that EIN? I can set up a limited company easily and cheaply, and would rather do this than go through the whole process anew.


If you can simply use your local tax number why would you go though all the trouble?


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## 555aaa (Jan 28, 2014)

Rebecca Bielawski said:


> I have a problem, I've read the thread and understand the issue (more or less) but in Spain WE HAVE NO PERMANENT TAX NUMBER as they have in other countries. I have an EIN but I am an individual and not an entity so I can't fill in the W8BEN because I don't have a tax number and I can't fill in the W8BEN-E because I'm not an entity. D2D said I could just fill in the W8BEN-E anyway but one part is extremely complicated about my FATCA status and I have no idea what to put.
> 
> Any ideas?


Disclaimer - I'm not a tax professional and I don't even play one on TV. So here's my best swag at what is going on.

The W8-BEN instructions don't say that you have to have a foreign taxpayer ID on line 6. Read the instructions for that line.

The reason you were asked for the W8-BEN-E is that you have the EIN, which you probably don't need, and with the EIN D2D thinks you should be treated as an entity. That form is a lot more complex as you discovered because it has to capture every bank and corporation that operates in the US plus close a lot of loopholes in the way people and businesses try to shelter income.

These W8 forms are what US companies use to show to the IRS that we are properly withholding or not withholding income generated in the US, but they don't get filed with the IRS. D2D should be able to take a standard W8-BEN form with you name and date of birth and leave it at that.

Your posession of an EIN means that you might file US taxes, so that means that in D2D's or Amazon's 1099 filings, your EIN will show up on the D2D tax filing as someone they paid. Then the IRS is going to check to see any tax filing with that same EIN and then reconcile the income on that form with the payout that showed up on the 1099 forms they received from the payors. If you didn't have that EIN, then they wouldn't file a 1099 form in the first place.

I've hired various people overseas who both did and did not have US SSN's. If they don't, then I don't file a 1099 and I hold the W8-BEN so if I get audited I have proof of who the payee is. If they are US, then I send them a W-9 (just like any other US person) and then I file a 1099-MISC that gets sent both to them and to the IRS.

FACTA stands for Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.


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## Rebecca Bielawski (Jul 14, 2015)

555aaa said:


> Disclaimer - I'm not a tax professional and I don't even play one on TV. So here's my best swag at what is going on.
> 
> The W8-BEN instructions don't say that you have to have a foreign taxpayer ID on line 6. Read the instructions for that line.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply, D2D knows I'm not an entity and say I can do either form. It's interesting that you say that I could present a W8-BEN with just my name and DOB, I will ask D2D about that, but the last enquiry I sent 2 weeks ago still hasn't received a reply which usually means that they won't reply. I think I might just ignore the problem for a while until I actually make some money at D2D.


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## xoxo (Sep 6, 2013)

Rebecca, I might have misunderstood your question, so if I did I apologise in advance.

I had the same problem as you. As a -, I do not have a Tax Number, and as the form specifically asked for a tax number, I couldn't complete it. We use our Social Security Numbers in my country for tax purposes, so I wrote Amazon and asked if it was okay for me to put that in the tax number field, and they told me it was fine. 
So if you use _any_ kind of identifier in your country for taxes, it should be valid. I encourage you to ask them.

I hope you get it sorted out! Best of luck.


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## Rebecca Bielawski (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks for your help guys.  In the end D2D has a new tax interview which worked great.  It allowed me to use my EIN even though I am an individual, so Yeah!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Arghhhh... I just had to update tax info at D2D AND Createspace. I hate this day no matter it's "simple" now because if the old data doesn't match the new perfectly (like I'm a corp. now for example) the forms always have a whigout. They ALWAYS have to be verified again even though I know the numbers are right. 

So. The moral of this story is, NEVER do tax info BEFORE payday, always do it after like me


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## MajesticMonkey (Sep 3, 2013)

Got this email today.

I assume the online tax interview for KDP doesn't allow an EIN anymore? (I would like to a test interview to see all the options but don't want to want to inadvertently mess anything up.)



> *ACTION REQUIRED: W-8 will expire on December 31, 2016*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Removed due to site owner's change of TOS.


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

MajesticMonkey said:


> Got this email today.
> 
> I assume the online tax interview for KDP doesn't allow an EIN anymore? (I would like to a test interview to see all the options but don't want to want to inadvertently mess anything up.)


When I first set up my KDP account 2012 I used an EIN. I had the same email as you at the end of 2014 and when I went in to update my tax info, the online form wouldn't accept my EIN. It did, however, accept my SIN, which kept my tax withholding rate at 0%.


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