# Engineering a Bestseller (+ 30-day Update!)



## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

EaBS


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

You can't engineer a bestseller.

I've watched several people lately trying to launch books in the top-whatever and some have succeeded and, despite previous successes, some have failed.

Sometime it just fails, because.

Nothing missing in that sentence. Because. It fails. If you could really engineer bestsellers, all the publishers would be rich, they'd push all their authors into more rigid moulds than they already use, and every one of their books would do well.

What you can engineer, however, is a relatively regular income from writing.


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## SasgoraBooks (Aug 27, 2015)

I love that cover! Is that Damonza's work?


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## vkloss (Sep 22, 2014)

Love the cover. I hope it works out for you! Curious as to why you chose the $3.99 price point as opposed to $2.99 or even $0.99 to maximise audience appeal.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

great cover


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Great cover! Thanks for sharing your battle plan. Please keep us posted, and best of luck!


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## LovelynBettison (Aug 12, 2012)

I agree with everyone else that that is a great cover. 

I also think you've made a lot of interesting points. I hope the new series goes well.


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## Abderian (Apr 5, 2012)

After reading many advice posts on here it seems to me there are many paths to bestseller status but that all involve an element of luck. Sometimes books are published at the right time to hit a growing market, sometimes it might be something else less definable. One thing we all have control over is writing the very best books we can and having them edited. 

It seems like you have a well-thought-out plan, Domino, so I wish you that thing we can't control - luck!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Even if Dead Man doesn't generate a bestseller by itself, I suspect it'll be another healthy income stream added to your overall efforts. Keep writing and producing quality work for the backlist and build the career.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Domino, that was a helluva post. 

It made me want to go buy a couple of your books.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

Great effort and hustle! 

I'm curious though, I thought the point of being an author was to have fun and tell stories. Otherwise, it has such a poor marginal return that it's not worth the time put into it. Don't most authors have some sort of day job? I can't imagine writing novels bringing in a six-figure paycheck for more than a handful of people, and for those who aren't among the handful, it seems like a lot of emotional stress for nothing.


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## ccruz (Oct 11, 2014)

I liked the cover, but thought it super weird that a wizard would need a gun for anything. I love the use of dark magic, however. Sounds really interesting. I hope you engineer lots of bestsellers with your new plan.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

blancheking said:


> Great effort and hustle!
> 
> I'm curious though, I thought the point of being an author was to have fun and tell stories. Otherwise, it has such a poor marginal return that it's not worth the time put into it. Don't most authors have some sort of day job? I can't imagine writing novels bringing in a six-figure paycheck for more than a handful of people, and for those who aren't among the handful, it seems like a lot of emotional stress for nothing.


This.

I grew up in an arts city, and lots of my friends had family who were writers and artists. Ben Hur strike a bell? How about Matt Helm (maybe you're familiar with the movies)? One of my best friend's father published 45 YA books but still worked a job with the state government.

I hope to bring in some money to help in retirement. I know people who are getting rich and some who are paying the bills. There are very successful authors who write far worse than I do, and some incredibly gifted authors who aren't selling anything. "Engineering" success in an artistic endeavor is kinda funny to me. (Amanda aside)


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## Adrian Howell (Feb 24, 2013)

blancheking said:


> Great effort and hustle!
> 
> I'm curious though, I thought the point of being an author was to have fun and tell stories. Otherwise, it has such a poor marginal return that it's not worth the time put into it. Don't most authors have some sort of day job? I can't imagine writing novels bringing in a six-figure paycheck for more than a handful of people, and for those who aren't among the handful, it seems like a lot of emotional stress for nothing.


The vast majority of authors have a day job (I certainly do) but I would guess many of them would like to get to the point where they could write fulltime. As many authors right here on Kboards have demonstrated, you don't need to be a NYT bestseller to achieve this goal. You simply need to get to the point where you have a large enough (and ever growing) backlist and a moderately large readership. Even if you weren't making as much money compared to a fulltime office job, if you could get to the point where you were making enough to scrape by (and didn't have large financial resposibilities such as kids or a pet polar bear), there's certainly a lot of joy in being self-employed and working your own hours. Of course there's stress too, in the form of a constantly changing publishing landscrape, but even day jobs aren't all that stable in this economy.

While there's no sure formula to write a bestseller, the OP's points would certainly increase the odds.


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## James R Wells (May 21, 2015)

Adrian Howell said:


> The vast majority of authors have a day job (I certainly do) but I would guess many of them would like to get to the point where they could write fulltime.


Full time is a great goal (I'm for it!) but also progress anywhere along the spectrum can be really important. More sales can ultimately mean more time to write. For anyone approaching retirement age, it can be an opportunity to phase over to writing in stages.


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## Cactus Lady (Jun 4, 2014)

ccruz said:


> I liked the cover, but thought it super weird that a wizard would need a gun for anything. I love the use of dark magic, however. Sounds really interesting. I hope you engineer lots of bestsellers with your new plan.


Urban fantasy, or high fantasy in more modern/industrial settings, yeah, wizards have guns. (another example: The Alloy of Law: A Mistborn Novel by Brandon Sanderson, and my own character Silas is a wizard/gunslinger with a magically modified six-shooter) I kinda have a thing for wizards with guns  definitely checking out Dead Man!

As for engineering a bestseller, there's only so much you can do - you can't actually make people buy your books. But whether you're shooting for bestsellerdom or not, whether you're relying on writing to support yourself or not, it doesn't hurt to go into it with a well-thought-out business plan that addresses your specific goals.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

The cover and blurb sure sucked me in! Looking forward to reading it. Good luck, Domino!


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## JTriptych (Aug 23, 2015)

Great cover and great attitude, Mr. Finn! The key is to always keep trying until you succeed! I'm rooting for you.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

If you look inside the Look Inside, it says cover design by James T. Egan of Bookfly Design LLC.  

I hope it works for you.  It's a great idea & looks really cool.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2015)

Love your drive and I think you have many of the ingredients it takes to sell. Great covers, great blurbs. I'll be keeping an eye out!


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks for the enthusiasm everybody! I'm overwhelmed by the responses. I just got back from a family gathering so I've had a bit of mulled wine. And Christmas sangria. And Taiwanese whiskey. Don't hold it against me.

First thing's first. Rank seems to be lagging but I've had over 20 sales after being live for 16 hours. The important thing is that I haven't announced the release AT ALL (besides this very thread). After I check in here I'll send it to my mailing list. (and a few free outlets should cover the sale over the weekend.) I know today and tomorrow are busy but the sales should trickle in over the weekend regardless.

Thanks to everyone who wished me luck. I'll try to answer any other points individually.



Patty Jansen said:


> You can't engineer a bestseller.


No doubt, Patty, we are not in 100% control. I hope my post didn't come off that way. But I believe there's value in studying what is successful, finding your best pool of readers, and giving them what they want.



DarkarNights said:


> I love that cover! Is that Damonza's work?


Thanks! For everyone asking, credit goes to Bookfly Design (same with the covers of all my full-length novels below).



vkloss said:


> Curious as to why you chose the $3.99 price point as opposed to $2.99 or even $0.99 to maximise audience appeal.


You know, I'm friends with several urban fantasy authors, and believe it or not, the go to price is not $0.99 or $2.99. Some even get away with $4.99. (I price my Sycamore Moon series at $4.70).

The main thing I want to do is attract an audience that will pay several dollars for my books. I'm not the fastest writer around and these aren't novellas. But big picture, I want to have promo opportunities available when the sequels launch, which means a higher price now. And then, when I have other books out, I can revisit the pricing of Book 1.



Abderian said:


> It seems like you have a well-thought-out plan, Domino, so I wish you that thing we can't control - luck!


I could definitely use some of that as well! I think, barring luck, what I'm saying is, the most important thing in this business is: audience. (Which does NOT mean we should ignore craft/editing/etc.).



Jim Johnson said:


> Keep writing and producing quality work for the backlist and build the career.


Thanks, Jim! This is definitely a serious business plan for a serious business. For me, one of the things I always want to be able to say is that I'm proud of everything I released. This is hard, but it's worth it.



Anarchist said:


> Domino, that was a helluva post.
> 
> It made me want to go buy a couple of your books.


Ha, ha! Don't let me talk you out of it! I've definitely put my heart into this. (Hopefully my brains as well.)



blancheking said:


> Great effort and hustle!
> 
> I'm curious though, I thought the point of being an author was to have fun and tell stories.


Thanks. It's funny, because I was just telling a buddy this the other day. My previous books are low fantasy and lower magic. _Black Magic Outlaw_ breaks away from my usual style, but I'm having more fun than ever writing this series. So I totally agree that this would not be worth it if I was selling out or not having fun. I love this and my main goal is to do nothing else for the rest of my life. As far as an income, I'm shooting for 6 figures (screw the percentages), but I'd start with less. 



ccruz said:


> I liked the cover, but thought it super weird that a wizard would need a gun for anything. I love the use of dark magic, however. Sounds really interesting. I hope you engineer lots of bestsellers with your new plan.


Thanks, Claudette. The gun thing is part of urban fantasy's nature. It's a way of saying "this is modern." Popular series like the _Dresden Files_ feature gun usage as a sometimes more practical alternative than magic. It's something that should definitely be in the book, but it's fair to question if it should be on the cover. I thought it set the right tone for my brand.



brkingsolver said:


> There are very successful authors who write far worse than I do, and some incredibly gifted authors who aren't selling anything. "Engineering" success in an artistic endeavor is kinda funny to me. (Amanda aside)


I think this goes partially to my point. I don't think craft is the end-all-be-all (although I love it). I actually think, financially, audience is more important. This is an artistic endeavor, for sure, but that doesn't mean you can't apply a business perspective to it.

(And I totally agree with your pragmatic points, Adrian and James!)



Kyra Halland said:


> I kinda have a thing for wizards with guns  definitely checking out Dead Man!
> 
> As for engineering a bestseller, there's only so much you can do - you can't actually make people buy your books. ...but it doesn't hurt to go into it with a well-thought-out business plan that addresses your specific goals.


Awesome! That's exactly what it is, Kyra. I look at it as targeting the largest pool of readers I can. That doesn't mean I'll bowl a strike, but there should be more pins on the ground for me to knock down.



AnnChristy said:


> Whatever can be engineered, it seems you have done the work for and that's to be applauded. It takes real dedication (dedication to the business side, that is) to do that much to lay your foundation with so much attention to detail.
> 
> I hope it works for you and the lightning comes forking down for you next.


Thank, Ann! Giving the business side of this career the proper attention is the main message of my post. It's a strategy, but not a guarantee.

And thanks for the kind words, everyone. It'll be an exciting weekend, but I'm more curious about the coming months.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Hi Domino,

As a reader and writer of UF, it sure sounds like you've ticked all the right boxes. You have a solid plan and experience behind you, I'm sure this new series will do well. 

You have more patience than me. I simply cannot hold off publishing once a book is ready to go- I just can't, even though it makes perfect sense. 

Best of luck and I hope the Amazon algos shine upon you  

(On my phone - hence short reply)


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

Gorgeous cover that tells me genre/situation at a glance...and I wish you the best of luck with it!


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## Catana (Mar 27, 2012)

The most concrete details I've ever seen showing the difference between books that are written and books that are manufactured.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

"You can't engineer a bestseller"...I couldn't disagree more.  Not everyone can, but lots of people are capable of it.  I'm capable of it.  I deliberately picked a popular genre.  I studied other bestsellers in that genre - their covers, their blurbs, the necessary tropes for the sub-genre.  Since I started specifically writing to market, more than 90 percent of my books have made the Kindle top 100.  

If you look over the bestseller list, it's full of people who "engineered" a bestseller. After 50 Shades came out, I can't even count the number of people who wrote billionaire bdsm and made six figure incomes.  Same thing with New Adult books that came out after popular books like Beautiful Disaster.  Same thing with the current trend for "stepbrother romance" themed New Adult novels.  

This isn't a swipe at people who write exactly what they want to write, without thinking about the market. More power to them.  This is just me pointing out, for those who want to make a living from their books, that one effective, proven method that has worked for a lot of authors, is to deliberately emulate bestsellers.  Otherwise known as "engineering" a bestseller.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Boyd said:


> How many people here have a USA Today or NYT Best Seller due to boxed sets? I bet I'll see a ton of raised hands. Those were engineered.
> 
> How many people here have a launch strategy, an arc team, a heavy mailing list? If you aren't launching a book to list, you'll never get the algo love without a lot of luck. Proper planning, that's engineered.
> 
> ...


Well, you can't guarantee that any given book will be a bestseller. But you can be pretty darn sure that a book you AREN'T shooting for bestsellerdom with won't make it. 

It's like anything else in life: if you try, you might make it, you might not. If you don't even try, you have no shot at all. And if you try, and "fail to success", not making a bestseller list? You've still probably learned a ton about the business and sold a lot of books, got a lot of new people reading your work, and so on.

I love hearing people taking a shot at something big. It's inspiring and awesome.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2015)

Everyone is looking for the magic formula that will propel them to success. There are some basic guidelines you can follow in order to give yourself the best chance possible. But I keep noticing that many are looking for that "one book" that does it. This may be the way to think in the world of traditional publishing. But this is indie. Indie is about production and momentum. Those of us who make six or seven figures will tell you that one book may get the ball rolling, but the ball will stop very quickly if you don't keep it going with more work. 
Assuming you have already put in the initial foot work and time, once you have an audience you need to keep and build it. Readers are often attracted to indie writers because they don't have to wait a year or more between books. And maintaining quality while working at such a grueling pace is the reason many writers either give up or never get off the ground.
Genre is important. If you write in an unpopular genre, you are starting out at a disadvantage. But then again, in more popular genres it's difficult to get yourself noticed. But I would risk it. Even if it's harder, the rewards are greater. 
You may wonder how often you need to release. Most indie book do their best sales within the first 8 weeks. So you need to have a follow up ready within 16 weeks. The longer you wait the more momentum you lose. After you have a strong readership you can wait a bit longer, but not much. This means you need to be writing a minimum of 2000 words per day, every single day, to give yourself enough time to do another draft, send it through editing and proof reading, get it formatted, get a cover done, schedule your promos and ads, and send your emails. Sound fun so far? 
You may be thinking that you can't write 2000 words per day. You can. It just takes work and dedication.  Of course, more is better and gives you time to work on the non-writing aspects of indie publishing. 
Studying the best sellers is a good idea. They blazed a trail for you to follow. Use that to avoid mistakes and setbacks. 
Anyway, that's enough out of me. I'm off to enjoy Christmas...


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

Good Luck Domino! Great plan. The more you plan and the harder you work, the luckier you'll get.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Great post, Domino. I picked up my copy  Black Magic Outlaw is a brilliant series title and I am still LOLing over O'Henry's desperado (and Radio/Silver Screen Hero) the Cisco Kid versus NASDAQ: CSCO (you did say you were a computer person  )

Writers ignore reader expectations (aka tropes) at the peril of their bank account.


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## blancheking (Oct 15, 2015)

DanaG said:


> "You can't engineer a bestseller"...I couldn't disagree more. Not everyone can, but lots of people are capable of it. I'm capable of it. I deliberately picked a popular genre. I studied other bestsellers in that genre - their covers, their blurbs, the necessary tropes for the sub-genre. Since I started specifically writing to market, more than 90 percent of my books have made the Kindle top 100.
> 
> If you look over the bestseller list, it's full of people who "engineered" a bestseller. After 50 Shades came out, I can't even count the number of people who wrote billionaire bdsm and made six figure incomes. Same thing with New Adult books that came out after popular books like Beautiful Disaster. Same thing with the current trend for "stepbrother romance" themed New Adult novels.
> 
> This isn't a swipe at people who write exactly what they want to write, without thinking about the market. More power to them. This is just me pointing out, for those who want to make a living from their books, that one effective, proven method that has worked for a lot of authors, is to deliberately emulate bestsellers. Otherwise known as "engineering" a bestseller.


How are we defining bestseller? Do we mean USAToday/ or NYT, or do we mean the top 100 subgenre lists on Amazon?


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

D-C said:


> As a reader and writer of UF, it sure sounds like you've ticked all the right boxes. You have a solid plan and experience behind you, I'm sure this new series will do well.
> 
> You have more patience than me. I simply cannot hold off publishing once a book is ready to go- I just can't, even though it makes perfect sense.


Thanks Pippa! Holding back is hard, but these days it seems to be the thing to do when launching a new series. Once you're writing sequels? Releasing them as quick as possible is probably the way to go. I suppose setting reader expectations and being regular would be best.



cadle-sparks said:


> Gorgeous cover that tells me genre/situation at a glance...and I wish you the best of luck with it!


Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear! Covers are hard for me sometimes because it's easy to overthink them and second-guess yourself.

--

I like the bestseller discussion that's happening. I think it's important that nobody is talking about a guarantee. This is about clear goals and attack strategies. If you want to make money, it's worth looking into what makes money. That alone doesn't make me successful, but I'm much better prepared to be. And none of this is a revelation. Smarter and more organized minds than mine have repeatedly said this on kboards and elsewhere. Some of these great people have inspired me.



This_Way_Down said:


> There are some basic guidelines you can follow in order to give yourself the best chance possible...


I love everything about this post. Everybody should read it. It's about working _smarter_, for sure, but you don't pull punches and stress the importance of working _harder_ as well.

--

Thanks Not Lu, and thanks mach 5 for the support! I am a computer person. I programmed video games for ten years at a big company. And believe me, _that_ is a business where everything is focus tested to death (often to the detriment of the product). One thing I love about writing is the author has sole authority when it comes to artistic choice.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2015)

blancheking said:


> ...
> I can't imagine writing novels bringing in a six-figure paycheck for more than a handful of people, and for those who aren't among the handful, it seems like a lot of emotional stress for nothing.


Actually that's not correct, many authors make 6-figures a year, they simply don't frequent the k-boards.

100k/year is $8,300/month. That's entirely doable with a plan, a catalogue and an eye to the market. I'm on track to hit that this year and its thanks to listening to the advice of authors far more successful than me who have been exceedingly generous in sharing their tips and strategies.

Making money from your novels also requires you to critically evaluate why your books aren't selling - especially if 6-figures or bestseller is your goal. Many people want to complain about not selling but aren't prepared to put the hard work into figuring out why their books aren't hitting the market. Usually its because they have ignored the tropes and gone off on their own path or simply mashed too many tropes together and don't meet reader expectations. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with writing for love and not caring about sales. I started like that, I did my own little weird tropes and ignored what readers wanted. I love those books, but they don't pay the bills.

There's also nothing wrong with writing to the market to earn a full time living and personally those are the authors I follow, those are the authors whose advice I listen to. Then I take what fits my personal journey and goals, and use it and now its paying dividends.

Personally I think the OP has demonstrated he has the mindset to be an author earning 6-figures/year or to be a bestseller


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

I've been around for some time. And I'm 100% certain you that you can engineer yourself a bestseller. I've witnessed too many people do it over and over. Sure there's an element of luck - but I know of writers who can almost guarantee anything they put out will be on the Kindle top 100. It ain't easy - but it's certainly possible. 

I really appreciate the OP's sharing his thoughts with us. I especially like how he pointed out some of his weaker decisions. I've definitely made some of the same exact ones. I also find it interesting many KB'rs are doing quite well in genre's the big publishers think of as "dead". 

Buena Suerte my friend.. I think you got this.


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## JeanetteRaleigh (Jan 1, 2013)

Best of luck.  I do think it's a numbers game to some extent.  Most bestselling authors have at least 10 books out.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Domino, you've engineered a winner.  Good luck!


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## Marina Finlayson (May 2, 2014)

Good luck with it, Domino! I've come to the same conclusions as you--my first series, now complete, is well received but doesn't sell that well. I took too long between books and didn't hit all the genre expectations, particularly with the first book. I've been researching the top sellers and my next urban fantasy series will be shorter novels, more frequent releases, and will fit more comfortably in that round hole than the first square-peg series. I know that doesn't guarantee bestsellerdom, but it will certainly increase the chances!


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

Great post, Domino! I love the idea of "mobilization", and that is a very nice cover. I too am in that category of writers who have quit my day job but haven't quite reached that elusive Next Level. Yet.

Engineering a bestseller is tricky, though. Sometimes you don't have to hit the tropes, for example. I've written two fantasy series, one a traditional medieval fantasy (if a bit dark) and one a wild story of zeppelins and fish-people. Perhaps surprisingly, the fish-people story (The Atomic Sea series) easily outsells the other (the Black Land series). Of course, it's probably better written, but the quality of the writing doesn't always seem to matter with these things.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

jackconnerbooks said:


> Great post, Domino! I love the idea of "mobilization", and that is a very nice cover. I too am in that category of writers who have quit my day job but haven't quite reached that elusive Next Level. Yet.
> 
> Engineering a bestseller is tricky, though. Sometimes you don't have to hit the tropes, for example. I've written two fantasy series, one a traditional medieval fantasy (if a bit dark) and one a wild story of zeppelins and fish-people. Perhaps surprisingly, the fish-people story (The Atomic Sea series) easily outsells the other (the Black Land series). Of course, it's probably better written, but the quality of the writing doesn't always seem to matter with these things.


Sometimes you just get lucky with a book that's off the beaten path, Jack. Or maybe it DOES hit tropes in ways that you haven't seen. Pace, having the correct scenes, having good structure, having the right characters for your audience - all those things can matter.

Twilight was an engineered bestseller, you know. Meyers got together with David Farland, told him she wanted to write a book with strong bestseller potential. He helped teach her what things would give a book the best possible chance. And - it worked. Well. 

Now, not every engineered bestseller will be a Twilight. But you will get VERY few high end successes which were *not* deliberately engineered to be so.

***

If the idea of "story engineering" is upsetting your idea of art, think about it this way. Writers are storytellers. You want to tell a story which will have *maximal* impact for your audience. If you want a book to sell well, you want to have *maximal* impact for a *maximum sized* audience. So really, it's about respecting your reader deeply (presenting them a story they will love) while expanding your definition of reader to cast as wide a net as possible.


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## MaryNWI (Dec 19, 2015)

I'm coming to this late because someone forwarded the link to me late last night. GREAT conversation. I want to say that I've been supporting myself in this biz for nearly 20 years and right now I work with a LOT of writers in multiple genres helping them publish successfully. I get to see what works and what does not and how sales change if you change what you're doing. You are so getting it right here. It's not about engineering a bestseller, though, it's about engineering a career path that will give you self supporting sales. You do it by figuring out who your readers are, what their expectations are, and then meeting them at least if not exceeding them. The main reason that I see books perform poorly is because the book fails to hit that market bullseye. It's a mishmash of incompatible genres, it flies in the face of reader expectations, it uses a character readers will not engage with, etc. Does that mean you should 'paint by number' and try to hit everything that your readers want? No. It does not. Story needs to be organic, in my opinion, in order to engage YOU and thus your readers. But you CAN start out with a clear knowledge of whom you are writing for, what they expect, and go from there. Otherwise you are writing for yourself, folks, and that may or may not resonate with 100,000 strangers. Some people are lucky and what they choose to write is an automatic bullseye, but that is rare from what I see (and I read and analyze in the market a LOT, you should see my book purchase expenses on my tax return every year...) You are certainly getting it right for someone who wants to pay the bills writing. Good luck! I just bought _Outlaw_ and downloaded the first _Sycamore Moon_ book. I'll read them this week and for sure give you reviews. Keep doing what you're doing! It's still a long-tail business, but you can shorten that tail considerably.


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## Kessie Carroll (Jan 15, 2014)

I'm going to try this exact strategy, myself--I just have to get the books written. Playing fly on the wall to see how well it works for people!

I also snagged Dead Man. I'm a couple chapters in, and loving it so far. After Dresden, I have this perpetual UF itch that I can't seem to scratch (and the series that do scratch it don't have enough books out!)


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## benwest (Oct 22, 2015)

If you don't think you can engineer a bestseller, you haven't taken a look at the Top 100 of Amazon lately. 90% of the indie titles there fall into the Bad Boy genre with copycat covers, tropes, and all that good stuff. And by "good stuff" I mean giving the readers what they want. There's nothing complicated or overly original about them, and that's the point -- the readers don't care. They want what they want, and right now, they want Bad Boys.

The only problem you may run into is that this is a trend, and trends die. See the BBW Shifter Threesome books of a few years ago. You CAN still make money writing those even though the trend has moved on, but it's not nearly as lucrative as it used to be.

But for now, if you just want a bestseller, you can definitely "make" one by simply looking at what indie books are selling and replicating them. If you're a half-decent writer, it's honestly not that hard. 

Now you may ask, "So if it's that easy, why don't YOU do it?" My answer: I love the genre I'm writing and I'm making plenty of money, so I have no need to churn out .99-cent Bad Boy books.


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## Michael W Griffith (Sep 6, 2014)

Great post Dom. I think you're on the right track with all of it and wish you the best of luck. Sharing your post with a few non-KBoards indies I know.


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## JBoyett (Nov 10, 2015)

I thought that post was helpful enough to warrant buying your book, especially for 99 cents.  

While I agree with other posters that you can't necessarily engineer a bestseller, I still think your plan is a great way to position yourself so that you're more likely to do so. Especially considering that, for me at least, I don't really need to have a "bestseller;" I can put out three books a year pretty easily, and if I can get to a point where I can sell roughly 5,000 copies apiece at $2.99, that'll come out to nearly $10,000 per book. Multiplied by three that would be enough to keep me going, I think, or at least enough to keep me from ever having to work overtime again! While there's no plan that can guarantee you a million sales, it seems to me that following your plan and doing a good job of it would come pretty close to gaining enough sales to be the equivalent of a working-class income--not too shabby, for something you love, and enough to tide you over till the big one hopefully hits….


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## KelleeLGreene (Dec 17, 2015)

Good luck with everything.  I love these launch posts.  Love your cover!


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

Wonderfully clear and inspiring post. And your book cover for *Dead Man: Black Magic Outlaw* is gorgeous! I was so impressed by your well-thought-out post, I downloaded the first book in your *Sycamore Moon* series. No matter how well-planned the publishing and marketing of any particular book is, however, sales always involve some degree of luck. The market and readers' tastes change over time, so the trick is to have a great plan and a great book ready at the exact time the market's ready for that particular type of book. Best of luck! Wishing you great success!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Well, geez, I take a peek at this thread and see that I've stirred a hornet's nest.

What I mean by "you can't engineer a bestseller" is that you can definitely engineer a book that will do pretty well. Exactly how well it will do up and above "pretty well" is up to the market and some random freaky luck sauce. By putting out more books, you definitely increase your chances that this will happen to one of your books.

It's easy to say "look at the top 20", but what's never said is that for every bestseller in there, there are a lot of books that do pretty well, but aren't bestsellers, that were also "engineered" and for which the author may have had higher hopes. 

If ever an author is asked why a particular title did so well and a next series didn't, then the answer is, a lot of the time "I don't really know". Maybe you can backward-guess why, but if you then try to reproduce the effect, you very often can't.

My remark came from a point of view of caution. You can get all the stuff right, books may sell quite well, but they may not ever become bestsellers. I have followed a number of these launches recently that haven't lived up to (hyped-up) expectations, but for books that have sold well enough nevertheless.

"Well-enough" definitely can pay the bills, especially if repeated on a regular basis.

Domino certainly takes the right path. Good luck to him.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Tilly said:


> Personally I think the OP has demonstrated he has the mindset to be an author earning 6-figures/year or to be a bestseller


If only mindset=cash in hand! Thanks for the vote of confidence, and that goes for Urban, Jeanette, Gator, Michael, Kellee, and Marilyn as well.

Marina, it's awesome to hear you're doing the same thing. I'd love to see a similar post with what you're changing. Jack, I've definitely seen your Atomic Sea books around - you have a lot of them now! (you got a bookbub right?). Kevin, I never knew that about Twilight (but it isn't surprising). Understanding what your audience wants is really all about craft, as far as I'm concerned.



MaryNWI said:


> It's not about engineering a bestseller, though, it's about engineering a career path that will give you self supporting sales.


That sounds right, and it's why so many authors are focusing on "series launches" instead of "book launches" these days. Chances are, that one book isn't gonna cut it. This is about laying a foundation and building over that (hopefully I mixed the cement right). Thank you so much Mary and Kessie and J for trying out Dead Man!



Patty Jansen said:


> Well, geez, I take a peek at this thread and see that I've stirred a hornet's nest.


I won't hold it against you, Patty.  I knew what you meant, and I didn't want to come off like I was slinging fish-oil guarantees. To be honest, my third day of sales today didn't go as well as I'd hoped and my rank started to slip (although my borrows have increased each day). I want to save the official launch announcement until I'm at full price, though, so maybe I should've opted for one day less at 99 cents. (I'm also hoping my also-boughts don't take too long to kick in). After this I'll report back in a few days or a week, depending.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Love this thread. And love your cover & plan, Domino. The best of luck to you, as that's the only thing you can't engineer. The rest you can definitely prepare for, and you have. 

It's funny how "writing to market" is sometimes still [secretly] regarded as selling out, or cutting one's creativity short, or whatever, when what it actually is is smart entrepreneurial thinking and respecting one's readers. Writing whatever strikes your fancy and breaking all the rules is fun, sure, but it won't lead to success or _well_-seller-dome. And you certainly don't get to complain later that the industry is messed up, or Amazon is against indies, or readers have lower standards nowadays, or even -gasp- that lesser writers are conning you out of your well-deserved money. I know none of you here have said such things, but I've heard them. And I'm sure you have too.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

You can most certainly engineer a bestseller, publishers are in the business of doing exactly that. As most of us don't have $400,000 to throw at marketing (yes, this is a real figure for a recent YA bestseller), we certainly have to be a bit more savvy, proactive and intelligent about how we chase that bestseller tag.


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## Secret Pen Pal (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks for the detailed, inspiring post. You've got a strong plan and have made good decisions based on experience. 

Your two action steps are powerful. I spent a year resisting most of the top trends, and tending to genre-bend and add unusual elements every time I went near one. I ended up making a few thousand in KDP in spite of myself. I came to the same conclusion about the importance of writing to market, at least at the outset. My next release is designed to hit a niche dead-on. 

You've got a stunning cover, a strong series title -- and everything about the book communicates clearly and engagingly. You did your homework to meet reader expectations. You've thought out your timing for releases and your strategy for reaching readers. 

I'm looking forward to hearing more about your success. You've got this.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> It's funny how "writing to market" is sometimes still [secretly] regarded as selling out, or cutting one's creativity short, or whatever, when what it actually is is smart entrepreneurial thinking and respecting one's readers.


Exactly. This is a business.

Every market is comprised of two groups: producers (e.g. authors) and consumers (readers). The former serve the latter. So it is with nearly every profit-seeking venture.

If my target audience is hungry for apples, I'm not going to try to sell them corn chips. I'll sell apples.


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## WDProsapio (May 22, 2015)

Great post and thread!  It struck me that what you are actually doing is bringing discipline to your writing life. You are still writing in the genre that you love, but exploring and incorporating the tropes that are effective and utilizing sound marketing strategy to deliver them.

If writing was a martial art, this is the equivalent of practicing your katas.

I'm inspired! Looking forward to following your journey!


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## m_d_reynolds (Jul 9, 2011)

Domino, I am reading Dead Man now and am wondering what percentage of the information about the religions and mysticism in it was from your memory and how much was researched. It's really good. I am looking forward to it. In fact, you might be cementing my new year writing categories a bit more.


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## batmansero (Oct 10, 2014)

Anarchist said:


> If my target audience is hungry for apples, I'm not going to try to sell them corn chips. I'll sell apples.


Dammit, now I want corn chips >.<


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2015)

Your Dead Man Cover is AMAZING


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks for the awesome support everybody! I'm away from home but wanted to check in with a quick update. 

After a worrying day of rank slip, I raised my price to normal (3.99) and announced the launch on social media (previous was only mailing list, and of course, this K boards post. My rank rebounded and has held steady since then.

Being in KU is really helping me out. My borrows are increasing every day. My previous record for total page reads in a day across all titles was 2500 (sad, huh?). Today I woke up and Dead Man alone had over 3k! I'm ecstatic and hope this keeps up. 

And my also-boughts kicked in today. The first few books are non-fiction writing books, which isn't ideal and will eventually change, but it goes to show just how much all of you have helped my launch. You'll never know how truly grateful I am for that, so thanks again. I feel like the hard work is paying off.


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## m_d_reynolds (Jul 9, 2011)

It's a really good book. I am about halfway through (pesky day job), but would highly recommend it.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I haven't been reading all the Kboard's threads and yours is one I skipped (I've been busy with face to face friends and family over the holidays), but just want say congratulations. I think your goal of engineering a bestseller is right on track. You can't get there without some planning. It looks like you have the terrific writing, cover, formatting and blurb needed, so adding proper marketing and production certainly won't hurt. 
Keep going—ignore the naysayers, and enjoy the journey.

BTW, Tilly is correct when she says many of the 100K plus crowd just stop in quietly under the radar. Plenty of folks are making big bucks writing to their set fan base. Go to some of the conferences and you'll meet them.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

Domino, book looks awesome. I picked it up on the strength of the cover and your posts alone.



blancheking said:


> I'm curious though, *I thought the point of being an author was to have fun and tell stories.* Otherwise, it has such a poor marginal return that it's not worth the time put into it. Don't most authors have some sort of day job? I can't imagine writing novels bringing in a six-figure paycheck for more than a handful of people, and for those who aren't among the handful, it seems like a lot of emotional stress for nothing.


I do wish this thought/attitude would finally take its last gasping breath and just die already. Why is it assumed that if a writer is writing to market/audience that they're not doing it for fun? Or that if they're striving for a good return on their time investment that it's not fun or that it's so stressful?

Being an author has as many stresses as any other job, whether it's being done for love or for money. Some of us think both of those things can (and do) happen at the same time.

There are as many different reasons to write as there are writers who are writing.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Awesome post. Love the cover and series title  (I think I already told you that a while ago).

However... I would have waited to say anything here until your alsoboughts were set. Your bots are full of things Kboards looks at/buys, which isn't really targeted UF stuff necessarily. Hopefully they'll settle out once you do the official launch and it won't have hurt too much though.  I also would have waited and spent all your launch juice at .99 right from the get-go. You want algo love, generally you gotta go for it in the first few days while the alsobots are popping etc, in my experience. A third day lag in sales and ranking is pretty normal, if you have caught algo-juice, it'll shoot up by day 5. If you haven't, it'll fall off more. So you'll kind of know.

I'd have left it at .99 maybe and planned to launch book 2 in late Jan (right around the 30 day cliff) while working to build maximum reviews and audience on book 1, but it is in KU, so it'll be tougher to promo it so I can see why you'd put it at 3.99. However, the clock on being able to drop it to .99 for a Bookbub or something is now set later due to it being at .99 for a few days, I think. So... I don't know. 

Good luck with the new series. It does look pretty cool


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

This is a great thread, Domino. I've been curious since you posted in my launch thread that you were doing something similar. I love how closely our launches have dovetailed, and I see that we both peaked high (2k in my case), and are hanging on around the 10k mark.

What I love both about both of our strategies is that we're thinking long term. I don't plan to really begin the promotion until book 2 launches in February. The first month is seeding the market, getting steady sales, reviews, and also boughts. My first Kindle Countdown will be the big test, and I expect that will be true for you as well.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Still away from home so trying to catch up with people on my tablet. 

Thanks Veronica. I know what you mean. I definitely believe there's such a thing as "selling out" although there's not a whole lot wrong with it. I think it just means that a person is not being creatively fulfilled while trying to make money. Hey, a lot of people do jobs they'd rather not do for a paycheck. Sometimes that's life. However, like you said, Writing to market is not selling out. I'm having more fun than ever and I'm writing in my preferred genre. I love this series!

Thanks Secret. It sounds like your next release will hit all the same marks. Post about it here! 

The katas comparison is perfect, WD! 

Michael, I'm not sure what you're asking. I know a lot about Haitian voodoo (reading Wade Davis' Serpent and the Rainbow) but I certainly also researched a lot. The Opiyel the Shadow Dog stuff, for example, wasn't something I was familiar with before researching for the series. I wanted to ground the magic in our world in a way that makes history important. PM me if you have a more specific question or I didn't answer it right. Glad you're enjoying the book! 

Thanks Rebecca and Lisa and Stoney. So far the presentation of the book is fairly sticky with readers, certainly more so than I've ever experienced. 

Thanks Annie!!! I was already forming this plan when I first met you, but talking with you about your experiences were a huge inspiration and motivated me to go all out with this. I think we can learn a lot from people who are initially not successful but then consciously make changes and hit it big. You now what you're talking about which is why I'm not surprised you're pointing out the mistakes I made!

Hopefully the also-boughts won't hurt me. I have some good ones deeper on my list (like your book). A Yancy Lazarus book just crept to page 1, so I hope they're correcting. For me, I don't have the mailing list and social media muscle, so I don't know that I could've been where I am without that early kboards push. Likewise, my book ranks usually plummet when returning to full price, so I shamelessly copied Chris Fox's strategy to go full price before announcing officially. 

You're right that I went full price so I could promo in the future, and that 2 months is probably longer than ideal. I think Bookbub requires a 3 month reset period, so I'll need to think out that future strategy, like maybe keeping book 1 full price until I launch book 3 with a Bookbub.

Thanks Chris! As you can see, your post already helped me with the social media announcement timing. I was also really stressing out about paid promos and your strategy let me feel good about not running any. It's is AMAZING for someone like me to launch organically. My peak rank was only 8k since I don't have the mailing, it muscle, but the presentation of the book, I believe, is sticky enough to keep it in that range. 

Sales are good. Borrows for Dead Man broke 5k yesterday and I think are on track to beat that today. I have never NEVER had this kind of organic success before. Hopefully that's the day 5 and 6 algo love Annie mentioned! I'm really psyched and hopefully by the 2 year mark I can confidently call this writing thing a career.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Domino Finn said:


> I think we can learn a lot from people who are initially not successful but then consciously make changes and hit it big.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I think Bookbub requires a 3 month reset period, so I'll need to think out that future strategy, like maybe keeping book 1 full price until I launch book 3 with a Bookbub.


Totally agree about that - *so much* to learn from mistakes and analyzing why things aren't working.

BookBub won't take the same book for 6 months. I believe they have a 30 day grace period for the same author. So you could do Book 1, then Book 2 a month later or maybe a box set or whatever.

Anyway, congrats on the launch - it was well thought out - and I hope the sales keep up at full price.

Nick


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## NoLongerPosting (Apr 5, 2014)

Great post, thanks! Inspirational.


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## DanaG (Feb 13, 2011)

stoney said:


> Domino, book looks awesome. I picked it up on the strength of the cover and your posts alone.
> 
> I do wish this thought/attitude would finally take its last gasping breath and just die already. Why is it assumed that if a writer is writing to market/audience that they're not doing it for fun? Or that if they're striving for a good return on their time investment that it's not fun or that it's so stressful?
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for that. Couldn't agree more. I love writing what I do, but I specifically, deliberately, picked a genre that I believed would sell well. I write to make a living. I know many, many authors who make six figures from their writing. Far more than a handful. Writing for the love of it is fine, writing for money is fine. I would never presume to tell anyone why they should be writing.


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## J. M. Clearwater (Dec 11, 2015)

Congrats on your success. The book looks really good. Downloaded and planning to give it a read when I have time.


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## Dominique Mondesir (Dec 15, 2015)

Domino love the cover and thank you for the post.

Quick question, are you planning on releasing the second novel via pre-order. I know Chris was aiming to do that, with his new series that is coming out.

P.S just got my copy on kindle.


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## williamwire (Sep 29, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> Exactly. This is a business.
> 
> Every market is comprised of two groups: producers (e.g. authors) and consumers (readers). The former serve the latter. So it is with nearly every profit-seeking venture.
> 
> If my target audience is hungry for apples, I'm not going to try to sell them corn chips. I'll sell apples.


Well, there's better ways to make a profit than writing novels. Many famous authors died in poverty. So it's not just a "profit-seeking venture" for everyone. I think what people want, is to sell their stories and make a living, and not be an apple merchant. Of course, there's nothing wrong with be an apple merchant.


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## stoney (May 24, 2015)

williamwire said:


> Well, there's better ways to make a profit than writing novels. Many famous authors died in poverty. So it's not just a "profit-seeking venture" for everyone. * I think what people want, is to sell their stories and make a living, and not be an apple merchant.* Of course, there's nothing wrong with be an apple merchant.


I'm not following. This circular logic is giving me a headache.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

williamwire said:


> Well, there's better ways to make a profit than writing novels.


That's vague. You could say that about any vocation.

More importantly, your statement ignores the distinction between craftspeople and businesspeople. Every industry has both. For every 1,000 authors doting on their books, there's a James Patterson building a business. For every 1,000 artists sweating over their latest canvases, there's a Thomas Kincaid building a business. For every 1,000 people building the best website they can to help people interested in their subject matter, there's a Lindsay and Bjork (pinchofyum) crushing their niche.

Writing books is a profit-seeking venture for anyone who hopes to earn money from their efforts. Some are content to earn a small wage. Others seek to build and grow a business.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

williamwire said:


> Well, there's better ways to make a profit than writing novels. Many famous authors died in poverty. So it's not just a "profit-seeking venture" for everyone. I think what people want, is to sell their stories and make a living, and not be an apple merchant. Of course, there's nothing wrong with be an apple merchant.


There's better ways to make a profit than being a doctor, too. And becoming a doctor is a pretty decent way of making a living. 

Of course, you have to work your tail off for about nine or ten years before that cool salary really starts cutting in... Which sort of makes writing much more likely to be profitable. Wait! Hear me out.  Think about it: you spend four years in undergrad working say 30 hours a week x36 weeks = 1080 or 4,320 hours over undergrad. Then med school which for most students is more like 60 hours per week x 36 weeks x 4 years is another 8,640 hours. Then a year or more of internship - say 60 hours a week x 52 x 1 year = 3,120 hours. Or a GRAND TOTAL of 16,080 hours to become a doctor.

If you were instead writing at the fairly sedate pace of 1000 words per hour, you would in the same time accomplish A MILLION WORDS A YEAR for the four undergrad years, about 2 million a year for the med school years, and another three million during the internship year. Your grand total after nine years in the trenches would be SIXTEEN MILLION words of fiction.

Honestly, your odds of making a nice six figure annual income after all that are really, REALLY good.

So offhand, I'd say that becoming a writer is probably at least as profitable on the average as becoming a doctor. You just need to put in the same level of work.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Honestly, your odds of making a nice six figure annual income after all that are really, REALLY good.


No, your "odds" are really bad. Like some others here, you compare the small number of successful writers over a short period of time to the average doctor over the long term--the 1% over the last 3 years to the 99% over the last 80 years--and call it even. But there's no comparing the two (in fact, the successes are probably far less than 1%). Even if that 1% is 10,000 writers, the overall percentage of successes are tiny next to the failures. It has always been so and probably always will be. Bringing in some kind of good/hard-working writers (the 1%) versus bad/lazy writers (the 99%) distinction to save the case doesn't work either, because it's circular reasoning and because it amounts to the same thing: only 1% are good enough and hard-working enough to make it.

None of this is a reason not to be a writer, not to have aspirations, or not to have a plan. And none of this means Domino's plan won't work. But it does mean that 99 other Dominos will do the same thing with a lot less success or without any. So, again, your "odds" of making a six-figure income are really bad.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Discouragement is an excuse to fail; encouragement is an opportunity to succeed.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Okay - I skipped this thread for a few days because I didn't like the subject. My loss, as I've missed the sale .

Anyhoo - I have no idea how successful you will be at hitting your ultimate goals, but I _can _say your cover, title, blurb and voice all hit my UF buttons _hard_. So I assume you are doing something right.

Best of luck to you!


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

It's an interesting strategy, you are going to have to follow up and let us know how it works.

I love the cover, kinda looks like a magical gang member or a revolutionary. It would catch my attention during a promotion enough for me to want to check out more.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

WHDean said:


> No, your "odds" are really bad. Like some others here, you compare the small number of successful writers over a short period of time to the average doctor over the long term--the 1% over the last 3 years to the 99% over the last 80 years--and call it even. But there's no comparing the two (in fact, the successes are probably far less than 1%). Even if that 1% is 10,000 writers, the overall percentage of successes are tiny next to the failures. It has always been so and probably always will be. Bringing in some kind of good/hard-working writers (the 1%) versus bad/lazy writers (the 99%) distinction to save the case doesn't work either, because it's circular reasoning and because it amounts to the same thing: only 1% are good enough and hard-working enough to make it.
> 
> None of this is a reason not to be a writer, not to have aspirations, or not to have a plan. And none of this means Domino's plan won't work. But it does mean that 99 other Dominos will do the same thing with a lot less success or without any. So, again, your "odds" of making a six-figure income are really bad.


Actually, your odds under the scenario I outlined would be very nearly 100%.

Name me ONE author who has published 16 million words of fiction over the last nine years who ISN'T making a full time living from their work? 

Heck, from what I am seeing - the majority of writers who put out a million words in a single year make a living during that year or soon after. And even if you set the bar as low as 500k words, most writers are able to make a living after just a few years.

My point was that if you want to make a living at something, it requires work. In the case of a medical doctor, it requires something to the tune of 16 THOUSAND hours of work.

If you look at the people who've spent 16 thousand hours working at their career over the last decade, you'll find that most of them are succeeding.

But you *have to put in the time*.

Most would-be writers won't do that.

So most would-be writers fail.

Most of the people who put in the time don't fail.

It really is as simple and as hard as that.


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## KBDeni (Feb 18, 2015)

Just to clarify, 16 million words would be about 200 novels at 80k words per novel?

I'm actually curious if there is anyone who's written 200 novels under 10 years who isn't AT LEAST making a living... At those odds, you would have to be doing something very wrong at a consistent rate...


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Heck, I don't think there's anyone producing and publishing at half that rate over a ten year period who isn't making at least six figures.

It's very much all about the work. Nobody gets to be a professional doctor without putting in the hours required. Nobody gets to be a professional writer without putting in the hours required for that, either.
(Well, some few might fake it and practice medicine without a license, but they generally don't have careers which last very long. And some writers get lucky without much work, briefly, but they generally don't last very long without putting in the hours, either.)


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Name me ONE author who has published 16 million words of fiction over the last nine years who ISN'T making a full time living from their work?


Can you name ANY authors who have written 16,000,000 words of fiction during the last nine years? (Don't count back catalogs of books or previously published books.)

That's 4,868 words per day or an average of more than 148,000 words per month for 108 months straight. That's not a realistic work plan. Life will get in the way.

(And I do agree that 500K to 1 million words published each year in a popular genre by a self-published author who can tell a good tale in coherent sentences will very likely make a full-time living in a reasonably priced community within five years or so, probably less.)


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Gator said:


> Can you name ANY authors who have written 16,000,000 words of fiction during the last nine years? (Don't count back catalogs of books or previously published books.)
> 
> That's 4,868 words per day or an average of more than 148,000 words per month for 108 months straight. That's not a realistic work plan. Life will get in the way.
> 
> (And I do agree that 500K to 1 million words published each year in a popular genre by a self-published author who can tell a good tale in coherent sentences will very likely make a full-time living in a reasonably priced community within five years or so, probably less.)


I totally hear you. And no, I don't know anyone doing that. I DO know dozens of writers who produce at that rate today - but none who've been doing it for more than a few years.

My point, lest it be lost, wasn't to make "write 1.6 million words a year x 10 years" your personal business plan. What I was trying to point out is that IS the level of work expected for most professions. Want to teach 2nd grade? That's 6 years of college in a lot of states, four in others. Say five years of full time effort. Want to be a nurse? Minimum for an RN is two years, but more and more jobs require 4 - we'll say three years at full time effort. You go scan the other professions, and they all expect you to work hard for a bare minimum of two years - and sometimes as long as ten - for very little or NO pay. Most often, you're paying for the privilege of the experience.

So it irks me a little bit when people talk about writing like it's a long shot occupation. It simply ISN'T. It's as guaranteed as any other profession. Because if you go to school to teach second grade, and spend two or three hours a week working on your classes, *you will fail*. If you put that level of effort into any professional training, you will fail. It's pretty much 100%. And that includes writing.

Hard work for a lot of years still doesn't guarantee success and a career, not in anything. But writing isn't a long shot, when you put in the same time and effort you would to learn any other profession. It's only a long shot when you dabble - and then it's not a long shot, it's very nearly a 0% shot. Same as any other profession.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Dominique Mondesir said:


> Quick question, are you planning on releasing the second novel via pre-order. I know Chris was aiming to do that, with his new series that is coming out.
> 
> P.S just got my copy on kindle.


I will NOT be using pre-orders. Too many authors I trust say bad things about them. Pre-orders might work for some, but you should have a funnel and fans in place. So if I had several books in a series out already (and had an idea of sell-through), rabid fans waiting for the next book, perhaps a promotion lined up to add a pre-order to the mix - these things might make pre-orders viable. Even them, some claim they dull your launch rankings. In my position, they would definitely trip me up.

Thanks for picking up a copy Dominique and JM! And thanks Bradford and Irene for letting me know the presentation is working. This thread has been lots of fun. Let's see how the next month goes!


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

Gator said:


> That's 4,868 words per day or an average of more than 148,000 words per month for 108 months straight. That's not a realistic work plan...


There's quite a number of authors just on the k-boards who have that exact "unrealistic work plan"... and often write far more than that a day.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Of course, you have to work your tail off for about nine or ten years before that cool salary really starts cutting in... Which sort of makes writing much more likely to be profitable. Wait! Hear me out.  Think about it: you spend four years in undergrad working say 30 hours a week x36 weeks = 1080 or 4,320 hours over undergrad. Then med school which for most students is more like 60 hours per week x 36 weeks x 4 years is another 8,640 hours. Then a year or more of internship - say 60 hours a week x 52 x 1 year = 3,120 hours. Or a GRAND TOTAL of 16,080 hours to become a doctor.
> 
> If you were instead writing at the fairly sedate pace of 1000 words per hour, you would in the same time accomplish A MILLION WORDS A YEAR for the four undergrad years, about 2 million a year for the med school years, and another three million during the internship year. Your grand total after nine years in the trenches would be SIXTEEN MILLION words of fiction.


Now if only we could get the government to give us student loans for living expenses and postpone the repayment till we churned out SIXTEEN MILLION words...


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I've seen quite a few writers putting out a book a month or more who aren't making a living, much less six figures.

If nobody wants to read what you are writing, no amount of books will magically make you money.

Quantity is awesome, if you have audience for it.  I used to have over 40 titles out. I make 1000 times more on just a handful of the RIGHT books packaged and marketed properly than I ever did on dozens of the wrong ones.


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## jlmarten (May 9, 2012)

Have to agree with all the others, becoming a bestseller is beyond the limits of engineering. That said, if the old adage is true that luck favors the prepared, following your strategy sure sounds like you'll be in a much better position to welcome it cruise up your street.

On another note, if you actually do find a way to engineer success on that level, why give creating cold fusion a try? It would certainly pay far more phenomenally, and solve a lot of the world's problems in the process.  

Hope all your efforts pay off.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I've seen quite a few writers putting out a book a month or more who aren't making a living, much less six figures.
> 
> If nobody wants to read what you are writing, no amount of books will magically make you money.
> 
> Quantity is awesome, if you have audience for it. I used to have over 40 titles out. I make 1000 times more on just a handful of the RIGHT books packaged and marketed properly than I ever did on dozens of the wrong ones.


SO much this.

It's about way more than being prolific. Lesson of my 2015.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Hard work for a lot of years still doesn't guarantee success and a career, not in anything. But writing isn't a long shot, when you put in the same time and effort you would to learn any other profession. It's only a long shot when you dabble - and then it's not a long shot, it's very nearly a 0% shot. Same as any other profession.


This makes a lot of sense.

The only years I've made any money writing.. were the years I worked my ass off. For the past two years I've done very little and lost most of my momentum. So of course I made exactly what I put in.... NOTHING.

Also, I know of two writers who are killing it right now with brand new pen names. But they put in a helluva lot of work and promotion. Like 40-plus hours a week of work. They weren't playing around. Yes, there's an element of luck. But if you put in the hours and the effort you will get something out of it. It may be gas and grocery money or it may be a full time income.

But if you don't put anything into it.. you won't get anything at all.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Annie B said:


> I've seen quite a few writers putting out a book a month or more who aren't making a living, much less six figures.
> 
> If nobody wants to read what you are writing, no amount of books will magically make you money.
> 
> Quantity is awesome, if you have audience for it. I used to have over 40 titles out. I make 1000 times more on just a handful of the RIGHT books packaged and marketed properly than I ever did on dozens of the wrong ones.


Clearly, learning to package your work well is important. And just as clearly, you've learned to do so... Which is what I would expect from someone who's put out over 40 titles. You don't get good at learning your publishing job UNLESS you put out lots of titles - which was my point. 

In other words, I doubt you would have the success level you have right now if you HADN'T had the learning experience on the way. It takes time, and effort, and practice, and ongoing learning. Time, and work.

It's not all about the raw word count, no... But Ray Bradbury used to say that it was *impossible* for someone to write a short story a week for a year and not produce at LEAST one salable story. We learn by doing. The more you do, the faster you learn.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

jlmarten said:


> Have to agree with all the others, becoming a bestseller is beyond the limits of engineering. That said, if the old adage is true that luck favors the prepared, following your strategy sure sounds like you'll be in a much better position to welcome it cruise up your street.
> 
> On another note, if you actually do find a way to engineer success on that level, why give creating cold fusion a try? It would certainly pay far more phenomenally, and solve a lot of the world's problems in the process.
> 
> Hope all your efforts pay off.


You're actually disagreeing with most of the others.  Most of the responses have agreed that it's absolutely possible to engineer a bestseller, and that it's almost impossible to have a book become a bestseller WITHOUT such effort.

Not that every book thus engineered will actually become a bestseller. But almost no books that aren't engineered to TRY for bestsellerdom achieve it. This is common publishing business knowledge... Like, EVERYONE knows this stuff who's worked in the industry for any length of time.

You get the rare exception, but yeah, most bestsellers were books designed from conception through marketing to be bestsellers.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Clearly, learning to package your work well is important. And just as clearly, you've learned to do so... Which is what I would expect from someone who's put out over 40 titles. You don't get good at learning your publishing job UNLESS you put out lots of titles - which was my point.
> 
> In other words, I doubt you would have the success level you have right now if you HADN'T had the learning experience on the way. It takes time, and effort, and practice, and ongoing learning. Time, and work.
> 
> It's not all about the raw word count, no... But Ray Bradbury used to say that it was *impossible* for someone to write a short story a week for a year and not produce at LEAST one salable story. We learn by doing. The more you do, the faster you learn.


Nah. I've taken a lot of those down now. Also, if I'd been smarter sooner I would have been able to skip a lot of the bad paths I wandered down. Plenty of others don't make the mistakes I made and do just fine (actually, they do better). Failure isn't some magical first step on the path to success. You can just succeed, too


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> You're actually disagreeing with most of the others.  Most of the responses have agreed that it's absolutely possible to engineer a bestseller, and that it's almost impossible to have a book become a bestseller WITHOUT such effort.
> 
> Not that every book thus engineered will actually become a bestseller. But almost no books that aren't engineered to TRY for bestsellerdom achieve it. This is common publishing business knowledge... Like, EVERYONE knows this stuff who's worked in the industry for any length of time.
> 
> You get the rare exception, but yeah, most bestsellers were books designed from conception through marketing to be bestsellers.


Of course you can absolutely improve your chances of selling well, and many congrats to the OP for his hard work in doing that!

I dunno. I think lots of people didn't try for "bestseller" and achieved it. Especially indies. Yes, you write the best book you can, you write it to a market of people that you know is out there, you put the best cover and blurb you can on it to signal what kind of book it is. Is that "trying for a bestseller"? If so, sure.

Dunno, though. I just wrote a book I'd like to read as a certain type of romance reader. I wrote it for myself, and that was all. Then wrote a couple more because it was fun. After that, I made a couple strategic decisions like how to title them, how to title the series, the covers & blurbs, and then I put them out. I didn't study the market or trends or anything like that, but I WAS a romance reader who enjoyed funny feel-good books with lots of dialogue, and that's the kind of book I wrote.

In that sense, lots of people "engineer a bestseller," just by enjoying a genre, writing in that genre to a certain group's expectations--whether that process is conscious or unconscious--and signaling appropriately.

And I completely agree with Annie. You don't have to fail first. You can make the above sorts of decisions just by giving some thought to it, whether you call it "engineering a bestseller" or not.

I also don't think I agree that anybody can make "make-a-living" money at writing fiction. I think you have to be able to write stories that people want to read, and then be able to KEEP writing them, over and over, for years. It's not like getting a job and hanging onto it by showing up and doing the basic processes. I think there's a certain thing where you have to be able to tell a story well that's a prerequisite. Plus, of course, marketing, business, etc. The skill sets that are "writer" and "marketer," let alone "publisher," aren't necessarily the same. Also, some people simply don't write as fast as others.

But--sometimes you don't know until you try! And you might as well give yourself your very best shot.

Congrats again to the OP.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I agree with Annie too. I don't think you NEED to fail. I think most people do - and one shouldn't be afraid or ashamed of failure. It IS a natural part of most people's paths to success. But it's not a prerequisite, just the norm.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

Tilly said:


> There's quite a number of authors just on the k-boards who have that exact "unrealistic work plan"... and often write far more than that a day.


The 4,868 words per day isn't what's far-fetched. It's the average 4,868 words per day _every day_ from Jan. 1, 2007 through Dec. 31, 2015 _without pause_ that's not a realistic work plan. Life will manage to interrupt those 3,287 consecutive days.


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## Henry WK (Apr 3, 2011)

Genre evocative cover and writing to audience aside, the blurb has an energetic voice to it. Could tell the author had fun with this. Your thread provided much fuel for thought. Best of luck, Domino.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

TattooedWriter said:


> YES. This!
> 
> Like Annie, I used to be all about volume but now my opinion has totally changed. I wrote less words in 2015 than any previous year yet it was my most lucrative 12 months by far. Write smarter, not harder, and fire it into the market with unerring accuracy.


Yep. To illustrate, I'll just leave this here: (37 books vs 5 books, not the results the "quantity is all you need to worry about" crowd would expect, heh)









That's why I think Domino is doing this smart. He's seen what isn't working in his last efforts and aiming to fix that with a careful plan. A good, strategic plan can make a world of difference, as you can see from my own results...

(and yes, I know the graphic should read "first SEVEN months" but I was tired when I made it and am too lazy to fix with my bad graphics program, haha)


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Yep. To illustrate, I'll just leave this here:
> 
> That's why I think Domino is doing this smart. He's seen what isn't working in his last efforts and aiming to fix that with a careful plan. A good, strategic plan can make a world of difference, as you can see from my own results...
> 
> (and yes, I know the graphic should read "first SEVEN months" but I was tired when I made it and am too lazy to fix with my bad graphics program, haha)


Just curious - did you think the 37 other books helped you with craft, so that you were at the level with Justice Calling where it finally all "came together" (for lack of a more eloquent term) in terms of a compelling plot/characters? Or was there a point of diminishing returns, where writing another novel didn't really help you move forward all that much with your skills? I'm talking purely in terms of craft skill.

Like was there a big jump in craft from, say, book 20 to book 38, with the 20sided Sorceress? Or would you consider some of the earlier books equal or "better" (whatever the hell that means) in terms of craft - and thus, the success of the Sorceress series is owed almost entirely, if not entirely, to better marketing/targeting/hitting of tropes? I've read the first part of Justice Calling and the pacing is really great. Wondering if this was the case with your other books, too.

Obviously craft is subjective, here, but sometimes it's fairly clear why something's not selling - my first few novels were kind of hairy, structure-wise, for example, and that's pretty evident now that I can write a competent one.

I ask because I'm aiming to publish 12 novels this year - and I have this feeling that maybe cutting that in half and using the extra time to read/rip apart books in my genre might be a better use of time, since I've already written 11 novels. Craft-wise I can definitely improve substantially, but I was already a reasonably competent writer (hooray English degree) when I wrote my first novel (I just didn't understand, um, fiction structure and lots of other important stuff). You've mentioned in other threads that you broke apart popular UF books and saw what worked/what was expected. I'm curious whether you think this is a more effective use of resources.

Anyone else who has published a bunch of books and switched gears (or kept going and broke through with, say, book 15) to become successful would be great to hear from.

Nick


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

I absolutely think you can engineer a bestseller. I absolutely don't think you can GUARANTEE a bestseller.

The distinction being there are some bestsellers, both traditionally published and self-published, where you look at them and go 'yes, absolutely, I understand why this is successful and why it works.' Compelling blurb with a premise that is both unique and familiar at the same time, evocative cover that draws you in with a strong sense of themes and tone that play to genre conventions and expectations, and a book itself that is well told and grips you from beginning to end - bestsellers that can check all of these things off...their success was not by any means inevitable, but it is UNDERSTANDABLE.

As others have pointed out, the element of success that can not be engineered or quantified is luck. It's having the right readers find your book at the right time, the word of mouth reaching to the right corners of the internet to springboard your sales to critical mass, the right reviews, and so on. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do about any of that, so all this thread really is, is saying....give yourself the best possible chance for success, and if lightning still doesn't strike anyway and turn your checklist of awesome blurb/cover/book into a mega success, move on and do it all over again with the next book. Rinse and repeat until lightning DOES strike, with the understanding that no matter how well you prepare and how well you execute, it might never ever actually ignite into that bestseller career you're aiming for, but hey, all any of us can do is give it our best shot.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Nicholas Erik said:


> Just curious - did you think the 37 other books helped you with craft, so that you were at the level with Justice Calling where it finally all "came together" (for lack of a more eloquent term) in terms of a compelling plot/characters? Or was there a point of diminishing returns, where writing another novel didn't really help you move forward all that much with your skills? I'm talking purely in terms of craft skill.
> 
> Like was there a big jump in craft from, say, book 20 to book 38, with the 20sided Sorceress? Or would you consider some of the earlier books equal or "better" (whatever the hell that means) in terms of craft - and thus, the success of the Sorceress series is owed almost entirely, if not entirely, to better marketing/targeting/hitting of tropes? I've read the first part of Justice Calling and the pacing is really great. Wondering if this was the case with your other books, too.


I think the years of writing dozens of short stories did more for craft learning than the handful of novels I wrote before 20sided. Most of those shorts won't see the light of day (neither will my first few novels). I took down things that didn't sell and I didn't think were representative of my skills. I wasted a lot of years publishing titles that weren't novels and weren't in a series, writing first books with no follow-up, etc, thinking that I could just write whatever I wanted and if I published enough things the sales would eventually add up to money. That never happened, as you can see  Strategy, proper pricing, and planning... and not just writing whatever worked a lot better.

As for how to spend your time? Only you can answer that. If your goal is maximizing readership and monies, spending time making sure those 11 books are hitting their genre conventions and audience expectation, and that they are very well written might be worth delaying publication. Not knowing what the books are, if they are all in one series or multiple, how long they are, what your covers look like, what your launch plan is, etc... I can't really give specific advice. I'd say read Domino's first post if you want an idea of things you should really consider BEFORE launching anything. 11 books alone won't necessarily do anything for you if the other parts of the puzzle aren't working. Chris Fox's thread, too. Thinking ahead can save you a world of frustration.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I think the years of writing dozens of short stories did more for craft learning than the handful of novels I wrote before 20sided. Most of those shorts won't see the light of day (neither will my first few novels). I took down things that didn't sell and I didn't think were representative of my skills. I wasted a lot of years publishing titles that weren't novels and weren't in a series, writing first books with no follow-up, etc, thinking that I could just write whatever I wanted and if I published enough things the sales would eventually add up to money. That never happened, as you can see  Strategy, proper pricing, and planning... and not just writing whatever worked a lot better.
> 
> As for how to spend your time? Only you can answer that. If your goal is maximizing readership and monies, spending time making sure those 11 books are hitting their genre conventions and audience expectation, and that they are very well written might be worth delaying publication. Not knowing what the books are, if they are all in one series or multiple, how long they are, what your covers look like, what your launch plan is, etc... I can't really give specific advice. I'd say read Domino's first post if you want an idea of things you should really consider BEFORE launching anything. 11 books alone won't necessarily do anything for you if the other parts of the puzzle aren't working. Chris Fox's thread, too. Thinking ahead can save you a world of frustration.


Appreciate the response. Answers what I should be doing. The 11 novels are already out. I think seven of them are probably a lost cause, in that they have a limited market, or no market, because a couple of them are not very good, despite my best efforts to the contrary. Gonna hit reboot here, since my Book Report #s for this pen name looks like a dead ringer for yours up top. Kind of hesitating, since it's like 350k and 1.5 years of work, but...yeah.

Anyways, thanks. Kind of knew the answer, but wasn't willing to accept that a dramatic shift in approach was necessary.

Domino - I've been checking Dead Man periodically, and it seems to be hanging around 7 - 8k. If you're willing to share, what's your page reads vs. sales situation look like? Page reads still rising?

Nick


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Nicholas Erik said:


> Appreciate the response. Answers what I should be doing. The 11 novels are already out. I think seven of them are probably a lost cause, in that they have a limited market, or no market, because a couple of them are not very good, despite my best efforts to the contrary. Gonna hit reboot here, since my Book Report #s for this pen name looks like a dead ringer for yours up top. Kind of hesitating, since it's like 350k and 1.5 years of work, but...yeah.
> 
> Anyways, thanks. Kind of knew the answer, but wasn't willing to accept that a dramatic shift in approach was necessary.
> 
> ...


It might seem like it is scary, because it is... but if you are making peanuts and nobody is reading... you don't actually have much to lose. It'll be worth it once you get things going in a better direction, trust me


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I read _Dead Man_ while traveling this week. I really enjoyed it. I think you hit all the right notes of satisfying the genre while standing out from the crowd, Domino. Great job.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Nicholas Erik said:


> Domino - I've been checking Dead Man periodically, and it seems to be hanging around 7 - 8k. If you're willing to share, what's your page reads vs. sales situation look like? Page reads still rising?


Days 5 and 6 were a big boost, with 5k and 6k reads. The last 4 days after that have been scary steady, finishing with about 10 sales and 4k reads every day. (All that seems about good for a 9k rank, considering that 1/4 of my numbers are UK). Today I've almost already matched the 4k reads in the AM, so maybe Sunday's are above average?



Becca Mills said:


> I read _Dead Man_ while traveling this week. I really enjoyed it. I think you hit all the right notes of satisfying the genre while standing out from the crowd, Domino. Great job.


Thanks so much Becca!


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## Darius Brasher (Feb 6, 2015)

To the OP: I've been monitoring the progress of your book on Amazon with great interest. It currently sits at a ranking of 6,064. Congratulations! You definitely managed to engineer a bestseller as the title of your post suggests. I just downloaded a copy of it myself.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Actually, your odds under the scenario I outlined would be very nearly 100%.
> 
> Name me ONE author who has published 16 million words of fiction over the last nine years who ISN'T making a full time living from their work?


You're confusing cause and effect. The 16 million words didn't cause the author's success; the 16 million is the effect of the author's success (probably) in the first 50,000 to 500,000 words: their books became successful at some point, so they kept writing. (Of course, I agree with Gator about the implausibility of the 16 million figure.)

Number of words written is only (and loosely) related to proficiency because you have to write a lot to become good at it. But number of words has no bearing on success because proficiency is only weakly related to being a bestseller. Annie B. offered you her own example. The bulk of her words earn her very little. There's no reason to suppose 16 million of those words would've had some magical effect. If she'd stayed on that track until she'd hit 16 million, she'd still be in the same boat.



> My point was that if you want to make a living at something, it requires work. In the case of a medical doctor, it requires something to the tune of 16 THOUSAND hours of work.
> 
> If you look at the people who've spent 16 thousand hours working at their career over the last decade, you'll find that most of them are succeeding.


Again, you're conflating _proficiency _ and _success_. The vast majority of doctors who do their "16 thousand hours" will become successful because the vast majority of people who meet medical proficiency requirements are employed as doctors (just look at the unemployment rate for doctors or any other profession). The vast majority of writers who've written enough to be called proficient are not making six figures--just look at the Amazon rankings, the small list of bestselling authors versus the total number of authors, and this forum. I fail to see how this isn't too obvious to deny.

In my experience, the only people who believe in a causal connection between numbers of words written and success are con artists and their marks. Caveat emptor.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Domino Finn said:


> Days 5 and 6 were a big boost, with 5k and 6k reads. The last 4 days after that have been scary steady, finishing with about 10 sales and 4k reads every day. (All that seems about good for a 9k rank, considering that 1/4 of my numbers are UK). Today I've almost already matched the 4k reads in the AM, so maybe Sunday's are above average?


Appreciate the update, Domino. Book looks like it's holding rank nicely.



WHDean said:


> In my experience, the only people who believe in a causal connection between numbers of words written and success are con artists and their marks. Caveat emptor.


I am a little bit baffled by this post. Obviously there is a causal relationship between hours spent performing an activity where your goal is making a profit and actual profit generated. This relationship is not a 1:1 correlation - talent levels vary, and the prodigy might only take 100 hours of math schooling to perform calculus - but obviously there are very few doctors who have worked 100 hours making a living, just as there are very few writers who have worked 100 hours making a living in this business. There is an obvious, clear, well-documented scientific correlation between # of hours invested in deliberate practice and skill level. This is simply because the person who has 1,000 hours under the belt knows things that the person with 100 doesn't even know they don't know. This allows them to see a number of profit opportunities that less skilled/knowledgeable individuals will be blind to.

I mention that the goal is making a profit simply because this will generally spur someone to improve their efforts. Writing millions of words, in and of themselves, will not necessarily produce massive skill gains. Many people obviously spend thousands of hours in tasks - writing, playing an instrument, driving - without improving because they are not consciously seeking to expand their skill set, as most learning involves some level of discomfort/failure as feedback. Deliberate practice is essential.

Skill might have only a weak correlation with bestseller status - simply because bestsellers are impossible to predict beforehand, especially of the 50 Shades/Divergent/Hunger Games variety - but it certainly does not have a weak correlation with making a livable career. Not every doctor is Dr. James Andrews, just as not every writer is James Patterson. Fortunately, you do not need to be.

While there are no doubt some writers who hit big without big hours, this is what I would term a low probability bet - hoping that you grace the bestseller list by sheer chance. And while there is obviously some element of survivor bias in those who have spent 10,000 hours writing - e.g. you are unlikely to continue that long when you are unsuccessful, unless you are a masochist - that phenomenon alone hardly explains the general success of those with more hours.

10,000, 100,000, or 1,000,000 hours by no means guarantees some level of craft or success. Indeed, all of our circumstances are different in terms of talent and the opportunities that happen to come our way. All you can do is increase the odds. What I can say for certain is that, even if you are of low writing talent, if you put in more hours of deliberate practice, you will improve. How much - and whether that will be "good enough" to make a living - is impossible to say. Only time can tell us our limits.

Although I will say that, no matter your level of incompetence, it is very difficult to be bad at something if you invest 16,000 hours towards improving your skills. I will also say, from experience, that 16,000 hours is a hell of a lot more hours of deliberate practice than it even sounds.

The two best ways to increase your odds of success are a) improving your craft skills and b) improving your marketing/business skills. There are no guarantees in life and there are no guarantees in writing. You play the odds and try to put them in your favor. Then you live with the consequences.

Nick


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Domino Finn said:


> Thanks so much Becca!


My pleasure! I mentioned_ Dead Man_ to my Fb peeps, but don't hold your breath: I don't have a big following. Fingers crossed the book (and series) continues to do very well.


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

Congrats, Domino! I just checked Dead Man and it's sitting pretty at #4,318! Incredible rise in rank. Have you done anything since you launched it to help it garner attention, or are we just witnessing what happens when a stunning cover, great blurb, and love from Amazon algo's all come together?


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks for picking up a copy, Darius. I noticed you in my also-boughts!

And that was so generous of you Becca! I'll attribute yesterday's spike to you. 



pwtucker said:


> Congrats, Domino! I just checked Dead Man and it's sitting pretty at #4,318! Incredible rise in rank. Have you done anything since you launched it to help it garner attention, or are we just witnessing what happens when a stunning cover, great blurb, and love from Amazon algo's all come together?


It's amazing, pw. After almost 2 years of pounding away, I have NEVER experienced anything like this. Besides the mailing list announcement at the end of Day 1 and the social media announcements a couple of days later, I haven't done any promo at all. I was afraid there'd be a slip in sales but things have been building the last two days.

When people mention the "algo" I'm starting to think it's 100% also-boughts. Every few days Amazon populates me in more places, and I see a spike and continued sales. I think, as long as your book continues to sell, Amazon will keep pumping you up.

To me, this displays the 2 struggles in selling books and stickiness: visibility and presentation. Promoting and getting your books visible is only half the equation, which is why my other books have plummeted in rank after successful promo stints. Visibility doesn't matter if presentation is lacking.

The only downside to my 100% organic approach seems to be the review count. The ratings are amazing and have floored me, but with my ranking, I'd like to have more than 6 reviews and I worry that is hurting my presentation. I didn't do any galleys or beta reads (altho 2 people I gave free copies to DID leave reviews), but I'm wondering if I should have been more proactive in this area. I'm awful at reader cultivation and the beta-reading/ street-team process.

Thanks again for everyone following along. It really is an adventure for me. Hopefully the wild ride continues!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Will you be doing a print version, Domino? Apologies if you've already answered that within the thread.


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## Dale Ivan Smith (Oct 13, 2015)

Finishing *Dead Man*, Domino--very fun read! Not surprised its been steadily rising in the ranks on Amazon. Keep on keeping us posted!


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Nicholas Erik said:


> I am a little bit baffled by this post.


Not sure why you're baffled because most of what you said mirrors what I said. The only differences I see are that you're confusing proficiency and success, though to a lesser extent than the post I responded to, and you're introducing a new variable, practical experience in bookselling, which hasn't been brought up yet.

Look at the "odds" claim as a provider-to-service ratio. The U.S. has around a million doctors because each doctor can treat only a small number of patients, no matter how good he is. So, assuming you're proficient, your odds of getting a job as a doctor in any given year are a simple matter of arithmetic: the total number of doctors who've retired, died, quit, or got booted from the profession over the total number available to be hired. If 1,000 have left and 1,000 are waiting to get in, well, you're basically guaranteed a job.

No such concrete ratio holds with books for the obvious reason that they can be copied. Those who want books can all read a small subset of books written by an even smaller subset of all writers. And this is exactly what happens. Books sales fit on a curve defined by the power law: 20% of authors sell 80% of the books (and it's often 10% selling 90%). So, how could the odds of success for someone proficient in the two professions be the same? The answer is they can't be. The demand for doctors is constant and the attrition and graduation rates are roughly the same, so you're odds of success are extremely good. But there's a huge gap between proficiency and success for writers because of the nature of the demand for books. A small number of writers can satisfy all the demand.

So my point is not that proficiency or words written don't count for anything. Nine times out of ten, bestsellers are also good writers. But it doesn't count anywhere near as much in success as being a good doctor does. Hard work and time spent working will get you a job as a doctor making six figures almost every time. The same put into writing might turn into six-figure success 1 in a 100 or 1 in a 1,000 times.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Domino Finn said:


> Thanks for picking up a copy, Darius. I noticed you in my also-boughts!
> 
> And that was so generous of you Becca! I'll attribute yesterday's spike to you.
> 
> ...


Congratulations by the way. Your posts are very informative. Good luck!


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Will you be doing a print version, Domino? Apologies if you've already answered that within the thread.


I definitely will but I've watched other urban fantasy authors launch very well without having a print option for a while. I've concluded that it's not necessary at all if you're riding the Kindle crowd (and KU, of course). It might be different in other genres or YA.

Now, am I leaving print sales on the table with my visibility? Maybe. But I've sold so poorly in print that I'm prioritizing finishing the Book 3 draft and the Book 2 revisions before getting into formatting (which I do myself and takes time). So around the time I'm launching Book 2 I'll probably be putting them both into print.

Thanks WH. And thanks Dale! I saw that you're working on an urban fantasy series yourself. Keep researching the genre!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks for the insights, Domino. I'll be releasing a couple of UF series this summer and will keep an eye on your success and steal ideas be inspired!


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

Domino Finn said:


> ...Now, am I leaving print sales on the table with my visibility? Maybe. But I've sold so poorly in print that I'm prioritizing finishing the Book 3 draft and the Book 2 revisions before getting into formatting...


That is my rule -- fresh e-content before other formats for existing e-content. That keeps your momentum going better with the ebook readers and maybe earns enough that you can comfortably part with the $100 or so it costs to have someone else format them into print. (I format my own, too, even when my sales are super high. For me, it's the proofing, which I would never consider farming out final proof, that is the time suck for putting into print.)


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm a little late to the game, but I must say, Domino you've put together a very solid, well-thought out plan, and if I had an opportunity to relaunch my indie career I'd definitely try and mimic your release strategy. Seems like the books is doing quite well (4k in the Kindle Store right now and top 20 in each of your sub genres) so your success is well earned. I hope the release of your second and third books launch you to new heights!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Domino Finn said:


> I definitely will but I've watched other urban fantasy authors launch very well without having a print option for a while. I've concluded that it's not necessary at all if you're riding the Kindle crowd (and KU, of course). It might be different in other genres or YA.
> 
> Now, am I leaving print sales on the table with my visibility? Maybe. But I've sold so poorly in print that I'm prioritizing finishing the Book 3 draft and the Book 2 revisions before getting into formatting (which I do myself and takes time). So around the time I'm launching Book 2 I'll probably be putting them both into print.
> 
> Thanks WH. And thanks Dale! I saw that you're working on an urban fantasy series yourself. Keep researching the genre!


I sell horribly in print. I just do it for the credibility. But I do farm out the formatting now. If I'm pressed for time, I farm the proofing out to my assistant (who's much more careful than I am, LOL). If you're selling well, it could be worth the time. My formatter also makes my books (both ebook and print) look BEAUTIFUL instead of just "acceptable." If you're better at formatting, of course, that may not matter! But it's nice to see something really gorgeous and professional in the "Look Inside," I believe. Inspires confidence in the potential buyer.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

I hadn't really considered it since I'm a DIY guy, but you both might be right. Maybe I should pay for formatting, get something a little more fancy, and save myself time.

Thanks Craig! I was first looking into this business when you launched your debut book. I was always impressed by what you did. You must've kept momentum for 6-8 months on that one book alone, right? Anyway, for sure, slow releases will lose you visibility. But there's no need to "relaunch" your entire career. I've been at this more than a year and a half and am finding "sudden" success with a new series. All you need to get the above working is planning and a head start. Put your mind to it and 6 months from now, anything can happen.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

WHDean said:


> Not sure why you're baffled because most of what you said mirrors what I said. The only differences I see are that you're confusing proficiency and success, though to a lesser extent than the post I responded to, and you're introducing a new variable, practical experience in bookselling, which hasn't been brought up yet.
> 
> So my point is not that proficiency or words written don't count for anything. Nine times out of ten, bestsellers are also good writers. But it doesn't count anywhere near as much in success as being a good doctor does. Hard work and time spent working will get you a job as a doctor making six figures almost every time. The same put into writing might turn into six-figure success 1 in a 100 or 1 in a 1,000 times.


I'll agree to disagree, but the main reason I said I was baffled was because you wrote "the only people who believe in a causal connection between numbers of words written and success are con artists and their mark." Which you just contradicted above with "my point is not that proficiency or words written don't count for anything."

I think the odds of success have been dramatically altered by the new distribution paradigm/avenues. In 1980 or even 2005, your chances of success were minuscule. Nothing was within your control. But with the internet and various distribution platforms, you can definitely carve out a career if you invest the time in your craft/marketing. In short, "being an artist" now is not anything like being an artist was for the past 500 years - feast or famine. The midlist/career is actually a viable path.

But I could be wrong. It's happened plenty of times before.



Rosalind James said:


> I sell horribly in print. I just do it for the credibility. But I do farm out the formatting now. If I'm pressed for time, I farm the proofing out to my assistant (who's much more careful than I am, LOL). If you're selling well, it could be worth the time. My formatter also makes my books (both ebook and print) look BEAUTIFUL instead of just "acceptable." If you're better at formatting, of course, that may not matter! But it's nice to see something really gorgeous and professional in the "Look Inside," I believe. Inspires confidence in the potential buyer.


I've always wondered about this. Like Domino, I do my own formatting (I use Adobe InDesign). It looks clean and functions properly, and the print versions look pro. But I'm curious if there is anyone who has seen a spike in sales from upgrading to something really beautiful from a more standard layout.

I do the print versions for credibility as well, but sell nothing. I'm considering going eBook only and putting that money towards other things. Has it affected your sales at all, Domino? From the last launch thread you did for Book 3 in the Sycamore Moon series and this one, it seems you've been trending upwards without them.

Nick


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2016)

It's unlikely print will ever do well for indie writers. Well, at least not under the current manufacturing and distribution methods available to us. One of the appeals indie authors possess is pricing. We have this with e-books. But we lose this advantage with print. Our print copies are either the same price or even more expensive than traditionally published books. 
And even if book stores were disposed to ordering paperbacks from Create Space, they wouldn't. I know this because my stepmother's family owns a mom and pop bookstore. It's space on their shelves that may not turn a profit. Even with Lightning Source having a return policy doesn't help much. Small shops want to sell books, not return them. Their limited space is reserved for books they think have a better chance of moving quickly.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Nicholas Erik said:


> I'll agree to disagree, but the main reason I said I was baffled was because you wrote "the only people who believe in a causal connection between numbers of words written and success are con artists and their mark." Which you just contradicted above with "my point is not that proficiency or words written don't count for anything."
> 
> I think the odds of success have been dramatically altered by the new distribution paradigm/avenues. In 1980 or even 2005, your chances of success were minuscule. Nothing was within your control. But with the internet and various distribution platforms, you can definitely carve out a career if you invest the time in your craft/marketing. In short, "being an artist" now is not anything like being an artist was for the past 500 years - feast or famine. The midlist/career is actually a viable path.
> 
> ...


I think the point of the first part is correlation vs. causation. Most people who sell well have written a lot. (Not necessarily fiction.) That's correlation. But writing a lot won't CAUSE you to sell well. Most people who write a lot, in fact, DON'T sell well--because most books don't sell well.

What I've noticed over my few years in this industry is that it's difficult to sustain a strong career as an indie author. I've seen a number of people who sold better than I do, and now don't sell that well at all. Whether it's that they wrote to a trend and the trend became less popular, or wrote for a temporary boom, for example writing short sexy stuff for KU1--or simply ran out of stuff to say, burned out, whatever it is--it's hard to sustain. I sold SO friggin' well for the first couple years! I thought my career would take off--boom. For whatever reason--my choices, my writing quality, my writing speed, my lackluster promo, whatever--it didn't. It stayed at that same level--very good, but not stellar. And the market's getting tougher. That sort of thing has happened to a lot of people.

I do believe that the most important factor is that the author must be able to tell an entertaining, hooky story. Even in literary fiction. The reader has to want to read it, keep reading it, and be left wanting more. Not everybody can do that. It's like I said, when I used to teach test prep. Some people can study and study and study, and their score won't ever improve much. Other people can study a little, and their score jumps tremendously. They're able to improve. The only way to find out which type you are in writing fiction, I think, is to try.

That's one place where the doctor analogy breaks down. The other place is in barriers to entry. To get into medical school in the first place, then to graduate from it and go through internship and residency, a person has to be (a) very smart, (b) gifted in a particular way (in science, especially), and (c) very focused and hardworking, able to overcome obstacles. So a doctor has already proven that he/she has the ability and requisite talent to succeed as a doctor. His/her market has already selected him/her. In writing/indie publishing, there are no such barriers to entry, so the market does all the selection instead.

The people you see writing for Harlequin for 20 years--they can probably make it as indies, because they've already "been selected," like the folks going through medical school, for those traits. They can tell an entertaining story, or Harlequin wouldn't have had them writing for them. They can keep going under pressure and discouragement, sustaining output.

As far as formatting--I think it was Russell Blake who said in a blog post in early 2015 that the market was going to get tougher. (He was right.) His point was that indies had to up their game in all areas to succeed in a tougher market. Half-a$$ed wasn't going to cut it. On-point writing, careful editing, spotless formatting, covers, blurbs, etc. That's where I think professional formatting helps you. It adds to the overall impression and gives the reader a more polished experience, even though they probably won't notice it consciously. That's why I do it--as a way to up my game.

It's very hard to prove a negative. Domino can't say whether his sales would be better if he had paperbacks. (My own sales really took off, coincidentally or not, the month after I added paperbacks, even though I sell very, very few.) I can't say whether my sales would be worse if my books didn't look pretty inside. I figure these things "can't hurt," and probably will help. They're a net improvement in my quality, so they seem worthwhile.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Rosalind James said:


> As far as formatting--I think it was Russell Blake who said in a blog post in early 2015 that the market was going to get tougher. (He was right.) His point was that indies had to up their game in all areas to succeed in a tougher market. Half-a$$ed wasn't going to cut it. On-point writing, careful editing, spotless formatting, covers, blurbs, etc. That's where I think professional formatting helps you. It adds to the overall impression and gives the reader a more polished experience, even though they probably won't notice it consciously. That's why I do it--as a way to up my game.
> 
> It's very hard to prove a negative. Domino can't say whether his sales would be better if he had paperbacks. (My own sales really took off, coincidentally or not, the month after I added paperbacks, even though I sell very, very few.) I can't say whether my sales would be worse if my books didn't look pretty inside. I figure these things "can't hurt," and probably will help. They're a net improvement in my quality, so they seem worthwhile.


Appreciate the response. That's interesting that your sales took off after adding paperbacks.

I guess what I'll have to do is get some professional formatting done and then compare before/after. Same with paperbacks. Good thing to split test, I think. I'm sick of wrangling with InDesign anyway.

Nick


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Domino -- congrats on your success! You obviously put in a lot of hard work and planning, and it's great to watch it all play out so well.

Quick question: Do you think launching at 99 cents for a few days was important / significant in having the book catch on?

Crossing my fingers that you'll see exponential sales with book 2.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Sonya Bateman said:


> Quick question: Do you think launching at 99 cents for a few days was important / significant in having the book catch on?


Thanks for the kind words!

I launched at 99 cents to make sure my mailing list bought in.

1) This is a new series that even my fans weren't attached to, so I wanted to get them in and interested in the sequels, which will be the bulk of my activity in the first half of 2016.

2) The 3 days at 99 cents were my VIP period. I didn't announce the book launch until the 4th day at $3.99, so that's an incentive to be in my mailing list in the first place. It rewards my most invested fans.

3) I didn't let my mailing list know until the END of day 1. So the sales I did pick up before that were likely just random Amazon browsers, and 99 cents is a great impulse price point.

So yeah, launching at 99 cents was important for me. Book 2 will follow the same pattern because I want to keep people invested in the series. Past that? I guess it depends how I'm doing, but I like the idea of rewarding my true fans.


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## Sonya Bateman (Feb 3, 2013)

Domino Finn said:


> Thanks for the kind words!
> 
> I launched at 99 cents to make sure my mailing list bought in.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed answer! (And for not quoting my typo  )

That's a great point about rewarding your fans / mailing list.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

Congrats on your bestseller, Domino! I liked the blurb - it's different than the standard blurbs and definitely appealing to the YA readership. Did you craft the blurb yourself?
the cover is not my taste, because of the gun but it looks professional. 
Best of luck!


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

Domino Finn said:


> I hadn't really considered it since I'm a DIY guy, but you both might be right. Maybe I should pay for formatting, get something a little more fancy, and save myself time.
> 
> Thanks Craig! I was first looking into this business when you launched your debut book. I was always impressed by what you did. You must've kept momentum for 6-8 months on that one book alone, right? Anyway, for sure, slow releases will lose you visibility. But there's no need to "relaunch" your entire career. I've been at this more than a year and a half and am finding "sudden" success with a new series. All you need to get the above working is planning and a head start. Put your mind to it and 6 months from now, anything can happen.


I'm actually in the farm-out your formatting boat too. Streetlight Graphics does both my print and ebook formatting and it's very affordable. I did have a nice tail with my first book, and sales spiked again with the release of my second book, but I've really shot myself in the foot with the delay from Book #2 to #3. I became a product of my own low expectations. That's been rectified, so here in a few months when I release book #3, I hope to see singing a different tune! Anyway, thank you for the kind words and advice, I've definitely taken it to heart.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

EF5 said:


> Craig, just as it is with Domino, your covers are fantastic!


Did Damonza or Streetlight graphics make them?


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## C. Michael Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

I haven't really followed this post, but will say I read the OP. The cover intrigued me. Click. The blurb intrigued me,. scroll to the reviews. Mention of Jim Butcher and Dresden in reviews? Sold. Kind of reminds me of Devil May Cry/Dresden. I'm your target audience, so just wanted to let you know you succeeded in appealing to a target reader. Will leave a review when finished.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Yes Antara, I wrote the blurb myself. Interestingly, the gun you don't like much and the blurb are similar for being "a little different" compared to the genre. Most Kindle urban fantasy like Dresden doesn't highlight guns, but there are definitely a subset that do (even a couple Dresden covers). I thought it set the right tone. As far as the blurb, I don't usually see first-person (so I strayed there), but I thought getting Cisco's voice out there was the whole draw of reading my book. Even if urban fantasy blurbs aren't first-person, they definitely have attitude, and this was the best way I could convey that.



C. Michael Wells said:


> I haven't really followed this post, but will say I read the OP. The cover intrigued me. Click. The blurb intrigued me,. scroll to the reviews. Mention of Jim Butcher and Dresden in reviews? Sold. Kind of reminds me of Devil May Cry/Dresden. I'm your target audience, so just wanted to let you know you succeeded in appealing to a target reader. Will leave a review when finished.


It's VERY interesting to hear the process that "sold" you. Thanks for that!

You know, when I first started writing books, I thought being compared to the Dresden Files was a bad thing. I thought readers would lambast the work as an unoriginal knock-off. And hey, some of the bestselling books that I've been following WILL have a few such comments.

BUT... after studying what sells and why, I've learned the MAJORITY of readers flock to similar books this way. As a gross generalization, readers grow comfortable with their genres and can't get enough of them, so they look for more of the same. An urban fantasy with half its reviews mentioning Dresden is probably selling well. This doesn't mean ours books should be clones - but being aware of what audiences want and giving them some version of it is good customer service.


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

EF5 said:


> Craig, just as it is with Domino, your covers are fantastic!


Thank you!



Antara Mann said:


> Did Damonza or Streetlight graphics make them?


It's funny how once you've been doing this long enough you can recognize these things off the bat. Damonza did them.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

I bought a copy of Dead Man last week, and it's next on my TBR list. Sounds like you're doing pretty good so far! I totally love your cover, and your blurb sold me -- I didn't read a single review before buying.


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## m_d_reynolds (Jul 9, 2011)

Dead Man definitely hit all my Urban Fantasy buttons. I am a solid fan of Dresden and will recommend this book to all my friends.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

EF5 said:


> Very cool cover, Jazzy!


Thanks! My boyfriend is a commercial artist and he volunteered to do it for me (not realizing that the book would be a success and now he's stuck doing four more covers... MUAHAHAHA). I'm pretty happy with it. <3


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> I bought a copy of Dead Man last week, and it's next on my TBR list. Sounds like you're doing pretty good so far! I totally love your cover, and your blurb sold me -- I didn't read a single review before buying.


Thanks! I'm totally not taking this for granted because nothing like this happened for my other 4 books. You are doing very amazing! No doubt that illustrated cover is striking a chord with people.



m_d_reynolds said:


> Dead Man definitely hit all my Urban Fantasy buttons. I am a solid fan of Dresden and will recommend this book to all my friends.


Thanks for the recs, Michael!



jazzywaltz said:


> Thanks! My boyfriend is a commercial artist and he volunteered to do it for me (not realizing that the book would be a success and now he's stuck doing four more covers... MUAHAHAHA). I'm pretty happy with it. <3


Oh, it's much worse than that. In a few months you're gonna tell him, "Actually, it's an *8* book series." And you might eventually stop at 12 if he's lucky. That doesn't even count all the commission requests he'll get from kboards authors. Welcome to the book cover business!


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Domino Finn said:


> Thanks! I'm totally not taking this for granted because nothing like this happened for my other 4 books. You are doing very amazing! No doubt that illustrated cover is striking a chord with people.
> 
> Oh, it's much worse than that. In a few months you're gonna tell him, "Actually, it's an *8* book series." And you might eventually stop at 12 if he's lucky. That doesn't even count all the commission requests he'll get from kboards authors. Welcome to the book cover business!


Thanks! Yes, I think the cover makes a big difference... one of my reviewers wrote that he bought the book based off cover and blurb alone without reading a single review. I don't think some people realize just how much of a difference a well-put-together Amazon page can make regarding sales.

LOL, I can just see the look on his face already. I've already got ideas for a spin-off series once I'm done, and I'm not even certain I'll stop at 5 just yet.  I'm sure he'd actually love to take on some commissions though -- he's a storyboard artist and is looking at the idea of building up his illustration portfolio a bit more by getting into book covers and such.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> Thanks! Yes, I think the cover makes a big difference... one of my reviewers wrote that he bought the book based off cover and blurb alone without reading a single review. I don't think some people realize just how much of a difference a well-put-together Amazon page can make regarding sales.
> 
> LOL, I can just see the look on his face already. I've already got ideas for a spin-off series once I'm done, and I'm not even certain I'll stop at 5 just yet.  I'm sure he'd actually love to take on some commissions though -- he's a storyboard artist and is looking at the idea of building up his illustration portfolio a bit more by getting into book covers and such.


Yes - the book cover, the blurb and the category in which you put your book into are the passive marketing principles. Very important, indeed. I want to ask you since I saw your amazing sales rank, did you use any marketing on your first books? Like email list sign-ups, ads, setting an ART (advance reader team), etc. Also, did you write the blurb yourself? Sorry for all that questions... really curious about your publishing journey.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Antara Mann said:


> Yes - the book cover, the blurb and the category in which you put your book into are the passive marketing principles. Very important, indeed. I want to ask you since I saw your amazing sales rank, did you use any marketing on your first books? Like email list sign-ups, ads, setting an ART (advance reader team), etc. Also, did you write the blurb yourself? Sorry for all that questions... really curious about your publishing journey.


I paid for a Free Kindle Giveaway sponsorship targeted specifically to fantasy readers when my book was still in the pre-order stage, which netted me around 800 subscribers to start with, 200 Facebook likes, and around 50 pre-orders. I also used Rebecca Hamilton's and BKnights' book blast services on release day which helped get me to #1 in three different categories and three hot new release lists (though admittedly on my own I would have been in the top 20). I also did give away something like 50 ARC copies to readers for review, and I think I've gotten about 15-18 Amazonr reviews off that. And yes, I wrote the blurb myself (though I did solicit feedback from both readers and writers on it before I posted it).


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## WrittenWordMediaTeam (Oct 23, 2012)

This is really really fascinating. As someone who reads this genre, I'd say that cover and series name is spot on. Thanks for sharing and best of luck!


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

jazzywaltz said:


> I paid for a Free Kindle Giveaway sponsorship targeted specifically to fantasy readers when my book was still in the pre-order stage, which netted me around 800 subscribers to start with, 200 Facebook likes, and around 50 pre-orders. I also used Rebecca Hamilton's and BKnights' book blast services on release day which helped get me to #1 in three different categories and three hot new release lists (though admittedly on my own I would have been in the top 20). I also did give away something like 50 ARC copies to readers for review, and I think I've gotten about 15-18 Amazonr reviews off that. And yes, I wrote the blurb myself (though I did solicit feedback from both readers and writers on it before I posted it).


Hi jazzywaltz, I'm totally inspired by your results! I just downloaded a copy of Burned by Magic and added it to my TBR pile. It's fascinating to see you achieve such great results with your pre-order, while Domino avoided it altogether. I thought pre-order purchases didn't effect launch rankings and entry into the hot new releases lists?


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

pwtucker said:


> Hi jazzywaltz, I'm totally inspired by your results! I just downloaded a copy of Burned by Magic and added it to my TBR pile. It's fascinating to see you achieve such great results with your pre-order, while Domino avoided it altogether. I thought pre-order purchases didn't effect launch rankings and entry into the hot new releases lists?


Yay, thanks! I hope you enjoy it. For me, I wasn't even thinking about rankings when I put it up for pre-order -- all I figured was that I was a completely unknown author and the more downloads at 99 cents I could gather up before release day the more reviews I was likely to get after the book was launched. I had around 800 pre-orders and am currently hanging out at 43 reviews, so I think my hunch paid off. 

Regarding ranking itself, the pre-order purchases didn't have any effect on my launch day ranking as those sales are counted they day they are made, not on release day. But it gave my book a ranking early on, and by the time December rolled around I'd already broken #10,000 paid in the kindle store. Ranking is not just calculated by the amount of sales per day, but also your sales history, so the fact that I had steadily rising sales for the two months prior to launch DID help with the release day ranking even though none of those sales are counted on that day. Also, you CAN hit the hot new release lists as a pre-order... my book was already in the top 10 in several prior to launch. In other words, your book doesn't have to be live to be on the hot new release lists... if you go look now you'll see some books on there that are still in pre-order phase.


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## Dominique Mondesir (Dec 15, 2015)

jazzywaltz

Thanks for the info, I will be using your advice when my third book is out round March.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> I paid for a Free Kindle Giveaway sponsorship targeted specifically to fantasy readers when my book was still in the pre-order stage, which netted me around 800 subscribers to start with, 200 Facebook likes, and around 50 pre-orders. I also used Rebecca Hamilton's and BKnights' book blast services on release day which helped get me to #1 in three different categories and three hot new release lists (though admittedly on my own I would have been in the top 20). I also did give away something like 50 ARC copies to readers for review, and I think I've gotten about 15-18 Amazonr reviews off that. And yes, I wrote the blurb myself (though I did solicit feedback from both readers and writers on it before I posted it).


I'm curious, what is that service Rebecca offers other than the email sign-ups? I did one platinum giveaway for all genres and got 959 subscribers (60 something were duplicates)


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Antara Mann said:


> I'm curious, what is that service Rebecca offers other than the email sign-ups? I did one platinum giveaway for all genres and got 959 subscribers (60 something were duplicates)


She's gotten better at quality checking the emails before she sends them out to you. In addition to FKG she also runs Hungry Author, where she offers a number of other promo-related services including her new release service, which I was very pleased with -- I got about 10 reviews and 45 sales out of it, which made up a little over a quarter of my total release day sales and helped boost me to #1 on three different lists.


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## noirhvy (Dec 29, 2015)

I think riting is an art, not a science.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2016)

noirhvy said:


> I think riting is an art, not a science.


Self publishing is a business. If you want to sell a product then you need to understand your market and what they want.

And I think you mean "writing"... not "riting" unless it's a poor pun?


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## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

Self-publishing is art or science or business or all of the above or any combination of the above. That's the 'self' part of self-publishing, it's whatever the individual wants it to be and each variation is as valid as each self doing it. This thread is geared more towards the individuals who at this present moment in time are more focused on the business/strategic/science interpretations of it, but it in no way invalidates any interpretations that don't focus as much on those aspects.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Kalen ODonnell said:


> Self-publishing is art or science or business or all of the above or any combination of the above. That's the 'self' part of self-publishing, it's whatever the individual wants it to be and each variation is as valid as each self doing it. This thread is geared more towards the individuals who at this present moment in time are more focused on the business/strategic/science interpretations of it, but it in no way invalidates any interpretations that don't focus as much on those aspects.


Agreed. There are plenty of self-pubbers who aren't in it for the money so much as they are just following their dream of actually getting their work out there and having it seen by readers. True, pretty much everyone who self-pubs wants that, but for some that's the primary goal rather than to build it as a business.


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

jazzywaltz said:


> She's gotten better at quality checking the emails before she sends them out to you. In addition to FKG she also runs Hungry Author, where she offers a number of other promo-related services including her new release service, which I was very pleased with -- I got about 10 reviews and 45 sales out of it, which made up a little over a quarter of my total release day sales and helped boost me to #1 on three different lists.


Hungry Author looks like a heavy hitting service - with the price tag to match. Still, it's clear it really made a difference in your launch. Did you launch at $0.99? If so, when did you go up to $2.99?


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

pwtucker said:


> Hungry Author looks like a heavy hitting service - with the price tag to match. Still, it's clear it really made a difference in your launch. Did you launch at $0.99? If so, when did you go up to $2.99?


I put the book up for pre-order at 99 cents and kept the price up until the day after release day, when I raised it to $2.99. I'd already gotten over 800 pre-orders and around 180 sales on release day itself, so I didn't see any reason not to raise the price so I could start getting my 70% royalty instead of 35%.


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## CM Raymond (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey J,

I'm cruising your old posts, trying to configure your strategy (as you seem to be THE fresh face around here who is killing it). 

Can you tell me what your strategy was to get 50 ARCs out before release? I think you may have said this at some point, but I'm not finding it.

Thanks,

CM


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

CM Raymond said:


> Hey J,
> 
> I'm cruising your old posts, trying to configure your strategy (as you seem to be THE fresh face around here who is killing it).
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how many ARCs I actually got out, haha. But I used Hungry Author's New Release Service, which includes sending out ARCs for review to a pool of readers (similar to Netgalley), and I also sent out ARCs via a book club that I'm a member of on Facebook. Additionally, I scooped up around 10 beta readers via RWA and Absolute Write's forums as well as via some of my writer friends, and most of those were happy to review an ARC as well.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> I'm not sure how many ARCs I actually got out, haha. But I used Hungry Author's New Release Service, which includes sending out ARCs for review to a pool of readers (similar to Netgalley), and I also sent out ARCs via a book club that I'm a member of on Facebook. Additionally, I scooped up around 10 beta readers via RWA and Absolute Write's forums as well as via some of my writer friends, and most of those were happy to review an ARC as well.


Thanks about all this info! That's why I love Kboards! I typed Hungry Authors and it looks all great. I'm interested in the ARC option -- when you book their service, they wrote in the post that usually it takes a month for your title to be sent to the reviewers, was that your case? And for your book blast on the promo day, you got 180 sales?
And lastly, what does RWA stand for? A forum?
Thanks for all your patience with our questions


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Antara Mann said:


> Thanks about all this info! That's why I love Kboards! I typed Hungry Authors and it looks all great. I'm interested in the ARC option -- when you book their service, they wrote in the post that usually it takes a month for your title to be sent to the reviewers, was that your case? And for your book blast on the promo day, you got 180 sales?
> And lastly, what does RWA stand for? A forum?
> Thanks for all your patience with our questions


Umm, I don't think it takes them a month to send out your ARC but I could be wrong. What I do remember them saying is that to get as many reviews on or soon after release day as possible, you want to book the review service 8 weeks out from your book release, because that's how long they give their reviewers to read and review. I booked around 7 or 8 weeks out and most of my ARC reviews from them were posted either on release day or within the first week.

RWA is short for Romance Writers of America.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> Umm, I don't think it takes them a month to send out your ARC but I could be wrong. What I do remember them saying is that to get as many reviews on or soon after release day as possible, you want to book the review service 8 weeks out from your book release, because that's how long they give their reviewers to read and review. I booked around 7 or 8 weeks out and most of my ARC reviews from them were posted either on release day or within the first week.
> 
> RWA is short for Romance Writers of America.


Yeah, I have heard it being used before but since I don't write in Romance, not exclusively, I didn't bother to remember. To conclude: do you think paying $100 for an email blast in Rebecca's email list is worth it? 100 bucks is not cheap...


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Antara Mann said:


> Yeah, I have heard it being used before but since I don't write in Romance, not exclusively, I didn't bother to remember. To conclude: do you think paying $100 for an email blast in Rebecca's email list is worth it? 100 bucks is not cheap...


It was to me. Around a quarter of my release day sales came from her blast (tracked through affiliate links) and after she did it I made it into #1 in several categories... so yeah. I'm doing it again for my second release.


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## PJ_Cherubino (Oct 23, 2015)

Magic bullets?



ccruz said:


> I liked the cover, but thought it super weird that a wizard would need a gun for anything. I love the use of dark magic, however. Sounds really interesting. I hope you engineer lots of bestsellers with your new plan.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

jazzywaltz said:


> It was to me. Around a quarter of my release day sales came from her blast (tracked through affiliate links) and after she did it I made it into #1 in several categories... so yeah. I'm doing it again for my second release.


Affiliate links -- you mean bitly or her own Amazon affiliate links?


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## Melody Simmons (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you for sharing your wisdom.  I think your sales rankings for the new book really prove that there is a lot of truth to your points.  

I completely agree about writing in a specific genre.  When I design book covers one of the main questions I ask the author is "What genre is the book?" and I cringe when I get answers like - "Well, I haven't thought of that and actually I think my book is quite unique and hard to classify, sort of a combination of suspense with a little women's fiction and a memoir slant, perhaps leaning more towards literary fiction though some have commented it reads more like horror or scifi."  Believe me, I get answers like these more often than you think.  You are helping a lot of people by sharing your experiences.


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## TraciLoudin (Sep 10, 2013)

Hey Domino, I was wondering how you got on the SF Signal "Under $5" list? I thought they only looked at traditionally published books, so I was happy to see yours show up there.

http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2016/01/100-sffh-ebooks-for-5-or-less-beaulieu-briggs-bujold-fforde-hunter-jacobs-king-logan-lowe-stephenson-wexler-x-files-more/

Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

TraciLoudin said:


> Hey Domino, I was wondering how you got on the SF Signal "Under $5" list? I thought they only looked at traditionally published books, so I was happy to see yours show up there.


I have no idea Traci! I didn't do anything at all. Thanks for pointing this out. (Haven't seen a sales bump yet, btw).


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## Melanie Tomlin (Nov 9, 2015)

Self-publishing is a passion. You have to be passionate about the whole process, from coming up with an idea, to the eventual publishing and on-going marketing, then starting the process all over again. Why else would you put yourself through the wringer?


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

*ONE MONTH UPDATE:*

The last 36 days have been unlike any I've experienced in my (practically) 2 years at this. This is a rough 3-month track and you can see my struggles with 4 books before I released Dead Man. That's a single book in a new series, written to market, paying my rent.










I didn't do any paid promo. Just 99 cents the first few days for my mailing list then $3.99 full price. I launched to a rank of 8k and hovered between there and 10k for a week, then my book organically rose to 6k when also-boughts populated, then continued and remained at 4k for the rest of the month.

I was really scared of the 30-day cliff, and I'm still not sure what to make of it. The 31st day saw my best sales ever (Dead Man only, US store) and the 32nd was great. I was beginning to think the cliff was a myth. But the 33rd was normal, and the last 2 days have been dropping. (My rank was 6900 but just rebounded to 5600). Then again, I feel like Tuesdays and Wednesdays have been my worst days. So I'll wait for a little more data to judge the cliff.

Book 2 is on schedule to launch at the end of February (seems a long way off now!). I won't preorder because I don't think I'll have enough demand. Depending on Dead Man's sales, I may hold off on all promo once again (I'm thinking of getting a Bookbub when Book 3 launches).

It's been a lot of fun, but also a lot of hard work. I couldn't have done it without great advice from the indie community, much of it coming from here. I realize I now have my foot in the door, but I haven't made it in yet. That will come with much more hard work. And consistency. So, on that note, I guess it's back to work!


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

I've been following Dead Man closely Domino, and am thrilled with your results. It's really inspiring and grounding to see how the trifecta of stunning cover, great blurb, and great writing can do everything you need to capture an audience and keep it. I sometimes get lost in the weeds trying to orchestrate overly complex promotions, thinking that the silver bullet lies in the perfectly laid launch strategy with four different phases, etc, but your success shows that what really counts in the end is having kick-ass basics.

Thanks again for documenting your journey, and I can't wait for Book 2!


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## Darius Brasher (Feb 6, 2015)

Since Dead Man is the second book listed in my books' Also Boughts, I've been tracking the progress of your book closely. I'm so thrilled for you! I'm very curious as to how the release of the second book will impact the sales of the first. Dead Man will no doubt be catapulted even higher up in the rankings.


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## TraciLoudin (Sep 10, 2013)

This has been so great, Domino. Thank you! Reading your OP made me realize some of my own assumptions and stubbornness has been holding me back. So I went through my current fantasy manuscript and broke scenes into shorter, hookier chapters. 

And congrats again on getting into SF Signal somehow! Hopefully you'll see a bump from it. 

Sent from my LG using Tapatalk


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

The 30 day cliff isn't a myth, but it also isn't as much a cliff as people present it to be. All that happens is you fall off the HNR list. 

Bear in mind there is also a 60 day and 90 day cliff. These cliffs have to do with who Amazon's algorithms will recommend your book to.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. By the time you hit that 60 day cliff book 2 will be out. If you can get book 3 out 60 days after that I am almost 100% positive you'll have a six figure year. Congratulations, man!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, I've found the 60 day cliff to be the worst, not the 30 day one.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Wow, great results! That 'before' bit of the graph basically mirrors my own currently, so awesome to see that one book can change everything.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> The 30 day cliff isn't a myth, but it also isn't as much a cliff as people present it to be. All that happens is you fall off the HNR list.
> 
> Bear in mind there is also a 60 day and 90 day cliff. These cliffs have to do with who Amazon's algorithms will recommend your book to.
> 
> I don't think you have anything to worry about. By the time you hit that 60 day cliff book 2 will be out. If you can get book 3 out 60 days after that I am almost 100% positive you'll have a six figure year. Congratulations, man!


That slightly bugs, me, that to continue to do well you're going to have to put something out every two months or else the algos will smash you to nuthin'. Hopefully that won't always be so, as we find more ways to gain visibility.


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

This is super cool information. It lines up with much of the advice given on these boards. I hope others pay attention to the results here. I know I am.


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## Dominique Mondesir (Dec 15, 2015)

Well done, Domino I am glad all the hard work as paid off.


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## Jordan Rivet (Jan 13, 2015)

This is great! Thanks for sharing your progress. It's really helpful for the rest of us!


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Congratulations, Domino! What a great spike! Keep up the good work.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for the update, Dominic. Glad to see the book is still doing well. Another update in 30 days would be great to see the difference between the 30 and 60 day cliffs.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Nice! Goes to show that writing to market does pay off.  My sales started to drop off a few days before the 30 day cliff, and by drop off I mean my ranking went from the 300s to the 400s. Now bouncing back between 500s and 600s. I'm running a 99 cent sale and promoting via on KBoards' spotlight promo today to see if that does anything at all but I suspect that I will continue to steadily downtrend until I launch my next promo campaign in late Feb/early March in preparation for book 2's release.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

pwtucker said:


> I've been following Dead Man closely Domino, and am thrilled with your results. ... your success shows that what really counts in the end is having kick-ass basics.


Thanks Phil. I love the phrase "kick-ass basics." Combining that with a targeted market is the way to go in my mind.



Darius Brasher said:


> I'm very curious as to how the release of the second book will impact the sales of the first.


You and me both, brother! This is very new to me... really it's the first time I need to put out a sequel to live up to expectations. I'm still not sure what the launch plan is, but I'll let everybody know.



TraciLoudin said:


> I went through my current fantasy manuscript and broke scenes into shorter, hookier chapters.


I really think that makes a big difference. Especially in the beginning. I think if you can get a reader to finish the entire first chapter of a sample, they're more likely to buy. You don't only want the first sentence and first paragraph to hook potential buyers, you want the end of the first chapter to hook them too.



Chris Fox said:


> The 30 day cliff isn't a myth, but it also isn't as much a cliff as people present it to be. All that happens is you fall off the HNR list.
> 
> Bear in mind there is also a 60 day and 90 day cliff. These cliffs have to do with who Amazon's algorithms will recommend your book to.
> 
> I don't think you have anything to worry about. By the time you hit that 60 day cliff book 2 will be out. If you can get book 3 out 60 days after that I am almost 100% positive you'll have a six figure year. Congratulations, man!


Six figures, huh? This is why I like you. 

The idea of a 60-day cliff surprises me because there's no visible filter on Amazon for 60 days. I was assuming also-boughts didn't weigh the book's age against you and solely paid attention to sales, but it sounds like you and Annie know what you're talking about. There's another very smart author I know who's done the 2-month thing from the beginning.



Matthew Stott said:


> awesome to see that one book can change everything.


It really can, but I'd rephrase it to "one series can change everything" with the emphasis being to follow up your success.

Thanks to everyone else too! I'm glad the info is helpful. It was an eye-opener for me when I slowly realized all of this.



jazzywaltz said:


> I'm running a 99 cent sale and promoting via on KBoards' spotlight promo today to see if that does anything at all but I suspect that I will continue to steadily downtrend until I launch my next promo campaign in late Feb/early March in preparation for book 2's release.


Wow, Jasmine. My initial instinct is that you're crazy to discount a book in the top 500 this close to launch, especially when you could do it when you launch the sequel in a month. At the same time, also-boughts are the #1 factor on Amazon that promotes rank stickiness. I think the "cliffs" are more about your also-boughts getting stale. What you're doing should inject a batch of fresh also-boughts and might prop Burned by Magic up for another month. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on your progress. You've done amazingly well.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Congrats on the success. It is awesome to watch hard work and attention to detail pay off.



Domino Finn said:


> Wow, Jasmine. My initial instinct is that you're crazy to discount a book in the top 500 this close to launch, especially when you could do it when you launch the sequel in a month. At the same time, also-boughts are the #1 factor on Amazon that promotes rank stickiness. I think the "cliffs" are more about your also-boughts getting stale. What you're doing should inject a batch of fresh also-boughts and might prop Burned by Magic up for another month. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on your progress. You've done amazingly well.


Hahahaha. I had this same reaction - but since I don't have anything remotely like Jazz's sales, I'm going to shut my mouth and watch the results. Well done to both of you. {shakes pom-poms and cheers}


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Domino Finn said:


> Wow, Jasmine. My initial instinct is that you're crazy to discount a book in the top 500 this close to launch, especially when you could do it when you launch the sequel in a month. At the same time, also-boughts are the #1 factor on Amazon that promotes rank stickiness. I think the "cliffs" are more about your also-boughts getting stale. What you're doing should inject a batch of fresh also-boughts and might prop Burned by Magic up for another month. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on your progress. You've done amazingly well.


Yes, it is a bit of a risk as I'm probably losing about $50 on actual sales, but it's not going to affect my KOLL. Also, I didn't use a countdown deal day for this -- I just dropped it to 99 cents and added a sentence at the top of my blurb to let prospective readers know that it was for today only. I DO plan on running a countdown deal the week before book 2's launch, and snagging a Bookbub deal to promote it if they'll accept me. Otherwise, I've got a number of other avenues to promote the countdown deal with that will PROBABLY accept a book with 54 reviews and a 4.5 star rating. 

My also-boughts seem to be going strong still, so if that's what we're referring to I definitely haven't suffered the usual effects of the 30 day cliff. Also, looks like my sequel is starting to be featured in also-boughts as well. The strategy of putting it up for pre-order is working out nicely so far -- I've already gotten 136 pre-orders and it's been less than a week! Which confirms my theory that putting book 2 up for pre-order on th heels of book 1's release is a good idea as readers who finish the first book and want the second are highly likely to pre-order it even if they read the first via KU. I actually regret not having the cover finished sooner as I'm sure I've missed out on sales.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

IreneP said:


> Hahahaha. I had this same reaction - but since I don't have anything remotely like Jazz's sales, I'm going to shut my mouth and watch the results. Well done to both of you. {shakes pom-poms and cheers}


Thanks! I hope it pans out, but if not it was a slightly expensive experiment, and I don't think it will have done any harm.

One thing I will say is that I'm a little annoyed at how automated the Kboards spotlight is; they literally copied and pasted the blurb as it showed on my page, including the bit at the end where it says "scroll up and buy your copy today", which sends a conflicting message as on the blog there's no place at the top of the post to purchase -- the buy link is at the END. You can see what I mean here: http://kboards.blogspot.com/2016/01/burned-by-magic-by-jasmine-walt.html

Also, I'm already up on sales downloads today from yesterday, but I've no clue as to whether or not it's got anything to do with the spotlight or if it's just because because I discounted it to 99 cents and more people who are seeing it on Amazon are willing to buy. I suppose if I get a really good boost today I'll be willing to attribute it to the spotlight but we'll see.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Oh, Jasmine, I thought it was a Countdown Deal. As a one-day thing, it definitely makes sense not to waste that.

Glad to see your preorder's doing so well! I might put my second book up for a week or so, but I'm not sure yet.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I see you're doing well! Great job Domino. Great cover, too -- and I like magic users with guns.


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## jazzywaltz (Jan 3, 2016)

Domino Finn said:


> Oh, Jasmine, I thought it was a Countdown Deal. As a one-day thing, it definitely makes sense not to waste that.
> 
> Glad to see your preorder's doing so well! I might put my second book up for a week or so, but I'm not sure yet.


For sure. KOLL continued on its way down today, sadly, but I've gotten 92 sales so far -- the highest in this entire month -- so it might've been a good move ranking-wise.


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## Matt Ryan (Nov 16, 2012)

What a cool graph! I hovered my mouse over it thinking the numbers would pop up like a dork.

I too have been watching your book as it cruises around in my also-bots. I'm thrilled to see the holding power it's had. If it drops you've got some room for a promo to send it back up. Every three months or so I like to do a promo on my series to give them a boost.

Get book 2 out! That series is only going to get bigger with each book. Grats.


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## Antara Mann (Nov 24, 2014)

Melody Simmons said:


> Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think your sales rankings for the new book really prove that there is a lot of truth to your points.
> 
> I completely agree about writing in a specific genre. When I design book covers one of the main questions I ask the author is "What genre is the book?" and I cringe when I get answers like - "Well, I haven't thought of that and actually I think my book is quite unique and hard to classify, sort of a combination of suspense with a little women's fiction and a memoir slant, perhaps leaning more towards literary fiction though some have commented it reads more like horror or scifi." Believe me, I get answers like these more often than you think. You are helping a lot of people by sharing your experiences.


Actually, Domino writes in crossover genres - paranormal noir; The Desden Files are UF and suspense/mysteries. However, there are troops in it too. Domino hit all the troops but the book even though a bestseller is only a bestseller on Amazon which for the moment is okay. I know and see that Amazon pushes harder KU books but in my heart of hearts I want to be wide. Hat on to all authors who have large fan bases and get sales out of Amazon too. I do really admire them.
And making mistakes is necessary. I know some people don't or so it seems at a first glance. I have come to the decision that a good cover and blurb and a book in KU could lead to a nice ranking over a period of time. I did well with my last book launch but didn't put the book in KU. I didn't hear the advice of other authors that serials do great in KU. I thought that my books would be under 100 KENP. It turned out they were approximately 150+.
I'd love to engineer a bestseller which is wide. Maybe you can make the first in the series permafree when you have at least 3 books in that series. I've heard Apple performs the best in fantasy and Sci-fi.


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## Bbates024 (Nov 3, 2014)

I've been following along in this thread and was super excited to check back in and see you had done so well. 

Catchy cover, good blurb, it makes you want to just buy the book. Can't beat that.

Keep us updated!


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

RobCornell said:


> The reason for this insanely long post (sorry about that), is I'm wondering if it's too late to resuscitate the Lockman Chronicles and use that series to stand on while I get the new one running? The fifth Lockman book ends the story arc of the series, so I won't have any new books in that series (and not sure it would matter as, like I said, the fifth book pretty much tanked).


I know nothing about nothing, so bear that in mind, but it seems to me that you have a very nicely branded series, with 200+ reviews on the first book. If it were me, I'd try for a Bookbub on that, and failing that plan a promo campaign with some of the reliable sites - ENT and RobinReads, for economy, and FreeBooksy and OHFB if you can spare some cash. I'd expect good sell-through to the rest of the series.

If that fails, then you'll know to abandon the series, but personally I think that if the presentation is good (and yours is) then a neglected series can always be revived.

Good luck with it, and the new work, whatever you decide to do.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Rob, welcome back to the boards.

It sounds like you have a passion for UF. Domino, Annie, and several other Kboards members have successful UF series. Have you read any of them?

I'd recommend doing so before you decide what to write. Study what's working, then write something you enjoy, but that will follow the same tropes people like Domino nailed. Obey reader expectations, and they will reward you with success.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

@Rob - OHFB = ohfb.com (One Hundred Free Books)

Since I'm the one who originally asked Annie the question, and have been contemplating my revised strategy for 6+ weeks, I'll chime in with a few thoughts:

First of all, if you don't have a list/website, get that. I couldn't see a mention of that in your Amazon Author Central bio. A link to your newsletter should be there - as well as in the back matter of every single one of your books.

1) if you've had a few BookBubs and the series doesn't stick, it probably never will stick. There are no obvious problems - the series is branded well, the reviews are solid and voluminous. I suppose the covers could be changed - maybe the design could be better, although they look pro to me - but I don't know if that's worth the $2500+ investment. So that's just the facts. That being said, I would keep submitting to BookBub and take those when you get them - obviously the money is good, and you'll still get exposure and all that. If sell-through isn't great, then make sure you have a series list in the back with links to the other books. An excerpt of the next book with a direct link would be good, too.

1a) I speak from experience here - I've gotten a BookBub three times for a series of 6 books now, and while the $$ and downloads have always been good, the stickiness has never been tremendous, even hitting top 20 or whatever in the free store and top 75 in the paid store twice.

1b) I would take Book 1 off permafree after you get a free BookBub and the tail dies. A 12k rank in the free store isn't doing you anything. Try it at $0.99 and see if people bite there.

1c) check your keywords. Each book is only ranking in two categories (scroll to the bottom of the listing to confirm that). You can probably get it in 6 - 8+. This is especially crucial for the free book and getting visibility for that from people who haven't seen it. You can check Amazon's list of keywords that you can plug-in to get into these special categories here.

Barring that, just email KDP Support directly and tell them what categories you want to be in. Give them the complete string, e.g.: Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Paranormal & Urban (which your book is already in, actually) or Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Mystery, Thriller & Suspense > Crime Fiction > Vigilante Justice (which your book isn't in).

It might take a couple tries to get a rep who will do this. It's worth it. Domino's BLACK MAGIC OUTLAW is in 6 categories.

2) create a boxed set of the full series (1 - 5). The books are so old at this point (in Amazon terms) that they aren't going to get a lot of organic algo love. But a complete set will act as a new release, and you'll be back racing the 30/60/90 day cliffs. I would launch this concurrently with a BookBub on book 1, and link to the set in the description. Then get as many ads for launch of the box as possible (ENT/RobinReads/FKBT etc.) @ $0.99 and see if you can't get some stickiness with the box.

3) split your private eye books + mystery into another pen name. You might be able to keep the paranormal thrillers along with your UF - those markets seem to have some crossover and the shift wouldn't be that jarring.

4) I would not start a new pen name if you already have this five book UF series. That's a good starting point. It's not selling like gangbusters, but it's by no means an abject failure. If you write a new series in UF that hits all the tropes, there WILL be some spillover to this. That money will be nothing to sneeze at.

4a) thus, the best way to revitalize these books is to write another series in the same genre, promote the hell out of it, make sure there are links to it in the back matter of the new series etc. Build on that success and use whatever newsletter/platform you've assembled to springboard off of.

4b) on that note - have two books ready in the new series before you launch. This is a complete pain in the ass, but make sure they're both done (and I mean done, not like 1 is done and the other is a draft. done). Then launch Book 1 and have Book 2 on pre-order 30 days later. Or launch them both at the same time and launch Book 3 30 or 60 days later. Something like that.

4c) after that, be CONSISTENT with your releases. Look - most people can't write a full-length book every 30 or 45 days. The people on these boards are an anomaly that way (a good anomaly, by the way), where this is considered normal. The prolific authors here can be overwhelming. What you need to do is be consistent - no matter what your schedule. I think that a novel every 90 days that hits tropes and is marketed well, realistically, is the longest you can go. Ask yourself if you can do that and make a plan around that. 60 days is probably better.

30 days can be best, but it can get hard to keep the machine going with life in the way, even if this is your full-time job. Plus, sometimes you get less selective with your projects and allow some ideas in that maybe the market doesn't want. With less bullets, you have to aim carefully down the sights, do your pre-research on tropes/cover conventions/genre expectations/what's currently selling and then really write a tight book.

I personally aim for 60 days, now. I've been writing 5 novels a year, but the releases are scattershot - I would release nothing for seven months, then release two books per month for a couple months. That doesn't work. # of books isn't as important as having consistent releases that you can build on - your name needs to be on your audience's mind and constantly refreshed. Otherwise you get lost in the noise.

Nick


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Nicholas Erik said:


> 4b) on that note - have two books ready in the new series before you launch. This is a complete pain in the ass, but make sure they're both done (and I mean done, not like 1 is done and the other is a draft. done). Then launch Book 1 and have Book 2 on pre-order 30 days later. Or launch them both at the same time and launch Book 3 30 or 60 days later. Something like that.
> 
> 4c) after that, be CONSISTENT with your releases. Look - most people can't write a full-length book every 30 or 45 days. The people on these boards are an anomaly that way (a good anomaly, by the way), where this is considered normal. The prolific authors here can be overwhelming. What you need to do is be consistent - no matter what your schedule. I think that a novel every 90 days that hits tropes and is marketed well, realistically, is the longest you can go. Ask yourself if you can do that and make a plan around that. 60 days is probably better.


All great advice. Nicholas, what do you think about writing the first 2-3 books in a series before releasing, then releasing them 30-45 days apart, and then evaluating where the series is before continuing on? Chris Fox touches on this in _Write to Market_ and I think it makes sense to be prepared to pivot into a new series if the two-three books in the series just aren't going anywhere.


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> All great advice. Nicholas, what do you think about writing the first 2-3 books in a series before releasing, then releasing them 30-45 days apart, and then evaluating where the series is before continuing on? Chris Fox touches on this in _Write to Market_ and I think it makes sense to be prepared to pivot into a new series if the two-three books in the series just aren't going anywhere.


You bring up a good point about when to drop a series. I should have mentioned that. I think the best route is to plan a trilogy, but make it open up for more. But I would also make it so that you can tie off Book 1 without writing any more titles if response is anemic. Basically, write an epilogue if Book 1 doesn't perform, tie up all the loose ends and move on. So INSTANTLY pivot. Just say f*** it and cut your losses. This is more important for those who are less prolific and thus can less afford to "waste" words. Like if you release six books a year and one of your trilogies - e.g 1/2 of your output - sells like 1000 copies total, you're screwed.

Bucking some conventional KBoards wisdom, I think it's very easy to tell if a Book 1 has potential to grow into something big. The sales/interest will be there from the beginning, provided you promo correctly and launch it reasonably well. Otherwise it will feel like you're swimming up stream.

I would peg that benchmark around 5 - 10 sales a day for the first 30 days if you're looking to start knocking on the midlist. Anything less than that, and I think wrapping things up is something to seriously consider. Giving people more of what they don't want is not a recipe for success.

I've published 40+ titles over the past 3.5 years across five author names. There are literally some books that I cannot GIVE away. No matter what I do. The content is fine - excellent, even (not talking about my own stuff here, FWIW) - but it's literally impossible to sell. Putting more books out in these veins or making them a series would not change that.

This "cut your losses" strategy assumes you know how to launch and promo reasonably well. I think most, if not almost all, of the breakout book 3s/4s/5s and so forth on KBoards (and elsewhere) were not a product of readers "buying into the series" or having credibility with more books. Those strike me as post-hoc narrative explanations that don't really hold a lot of water. A far more likely sales driver was that the author finally had a grasp on marketing and got the series in front of the correct readers. Furthermore, they also had built a platform - social media, mailing list (mostly this), website etc. - that could launch the latter series books effectively.

I think what might actually be optimal (and allow you to pivot super-quick), if you wanted to get three books out in rapid succession, is write three book 1s, all written to slightly different markets - or two book 1s and two books 2s (if I could keep up a monthly schedule; I can't). That gives more opportunities to hit and more entry points. Then alternate releases - Book 1 of Series 1, then Book 1 of Series 2 thirty days later, then Book 2 of Series 2 thirty days after that (I would use pre-orders, so they would all be up) and so forth.

Nick


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> All great advice. Nicholas, what do you think about writing the first 2-3 books in a series before releasing, then releasing them 30-45 days apart, and then evaluating where the series is before continuing on? Chris Fox touches on this in _Write to Market_ and I think it makes sense to be prepared to pivot into a new series if the two-three books in the series just aren't going anywhere.


It's a good idea, it's what I'll be doing in the second half of the year for my Urban Fantasy series. You give yourself the best chance to succeed, but are also ready to move on without feeling the need to slog on if things don't turn out as you'd hoped.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Nicholas Erik said:


> I think what might actually be optimal (and allow you to pivot super-quick), if you wanted to get three books out in rapid succession, is write three book 1s, all written to slightly different markets - or two book 1s and two books 2s (if I could keep up a monthly schedule; I can't). That gives more opportunities to hit and more entry points. Then alternate releases - Book 1 of Series 1, then Book 1 of Series 2 thirty days later, then Book 2 of Series 2 thirty days after that (I would use pre-orders, so they would all be up) and so forth.


I'd go insane if I tried that. What if all those series hit? What if none of them do?


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## Nicholas Erik (Sep 22, 2015)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> I'd go insane if I tried that. What if all those series hit? What if none of them do?


Definitely not for the faint of heart.

But I think it gives you the best shot at success. With one series, you have one entry point. Two, you have two. Three, well - you get the picture.

So if you write three books in one series written to market, that gives you one shot at hitting (provided they're to be read sequentially).

But if you write three books written to market in different series, that gives you three shots. And it's entirely possible none of those series hit. In which case, I guess you go back to the drawing board and come up with new ideas. Obviously, this type of scenario really requires that you can write quickly in the event that one or more of them takes off. So if you're not super-prolific (book a month, I'd say; I'm not there, at this point), it doesn't really work.

Nick


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Nicholas Erik said:


> Definitely not for the faint of heart.
> 
> But I think it gives you the best shot at success. With one series, you have one entry point. Two, you have two. Three, well - you get the picture.
> 
> ...


This is actually why I'm planning on writing a few trilogies initially. More entry points and more first books that you can promote. Later I may write longer series.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Personally, I think getting books 1 and 2 out within 30 days of each other is gold. Then book 3 no more than 60 days after book 2.

At that point, yeah, I think you'll have a feeling for if the series will go anywhere audience-wise. At least, if you've launched well and given it support and tried what you could to maximize things (cover, blurb, editing, advanced reviews etc). 

But true also that for some things, you can tell on book 1 and certainly by book 2.


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## Buddy Pilgrim (Aug 6, 2015)

Hi Domino,
Just bought and started Dead Man because it was mentioned in Chris' new book. I'm reading Storm Front as well, taking notes on both. I am an utter noob having published some foul smelling dreck called Chemical Vampires series. I'm told the story and covers (Fiverr) are okay but it was edited by a baboon (yours truly). Like 5 times, even paid a Fiverr to edit it. Abysmal. But that's okay it was the first and I'm still learning.
I think that while we can't engineer a Best Seller, we can stoke the fires of mid-level success (quit the DJ) with it. I'll buy your next one, not just because I am enjoying your writing, but heartily admire your writing business philosophy (like Chris). Give me a dozen or two more books under my belt and I'll have something to talk about. Good luck.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> I'd go insane if I tried that. What if all those series hit? What if none of them do?


Shoot, that's easy. If I released a trilogy in two series that somehow managed to take off, I'd quit my day job and service the hell out of both readerships and deliver a book as frequently as possible in both series. Probably alternate releases on a monthly basis.

If neither of them took off, I'd write another series. The wellspring of ideas isn't going to dry up just because a couple series don't do well.

Really appreciate the advice and insights, folks!


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Shoot, that's easy. If I released a trilogy in two series that somehow managed to take off, I'd quit my day job and service the hell out of both readerships and deliver a book as frequently as possible in both series. Probably alternate releases on a monthly basis.
> 
> If neither of them took off, I'd write another series. The wellspring of ideas isn't going to dry up just because a couple series don't do well.
> 
> Really appreciate the advice and insights, folks!


I'd have to earn a LOT to be able to quit my day job and live off my writing alone. I'm aiming towards that, sure, but unless lightning strikes (or I tickle the market just the right way), that's not going to happen too soon. And launching different series in parallel just sounds like spreading thin and wide, instead of going deeper on one stream at a time. But maybe it's just my perception. I do see the use in trying series out to see if they stick, just not trying different ones in parallel.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Lioncoeur said:


> Hi Domino,


Welcome to kboards. Let me tell you, if you're serious about improving and learning how to become a success, you're in the right place! I've been around 2 years soaking stuff up. Now I feel like I'm on the cusp of the next level of my career (as long as I don't mess it up! Book 2's with my editor now and I can't wait to release it.).


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> I'd have to earn a LOT to be able to quit my day job and live off my writing alone. I'm aiming towards that, sure, but unless lightning strikes (or I tickle the market just the right way), that's not going to happen too soon. And launching different series in parallel just sounds like spreading thin and wide, instead of going deeper on one stream at a time. But maybe it's just my perception. I do see the use in trying series out to see if they stick, just not trying different ones in parallel.


I hear ya. We didn't define 'take off' anywhere. So I was guesstimating. If 'take off' means, 10 copies a day per book per series, you're looking at a rank per book somewhere around 12,000? I guess that's good. So six books, 10 copies a day each, at average 2.00 royalty per copy, not counting any print sales or KU monies, that's 60 copies a day x 30 days x 2.00 a copy = $3,600 a month. That's less than I make at my day job, but it's good enough (even knowing I'd have to hold a third of that for Uncle Sam) to quit the day job in a hot minute and invest all that money back into the business and write full time and add even more titles to my backlist. More titles, more income, esp if I'm building on the theoretical success of those two series.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I hear ya. We didn't define 'take off' anywhere. So I was guesstimating. If 'take off' means, 10 copies a day per book per series, you're looking at a rank per book somewhere around 12,000? I guess that's good. So six books, 10 copies a day each, at average 2.00 royalty per copy, not counting any print sales or KU monies, that's 60 copies a day x 30 days x 2.00 a copy = $3,600 a month. That's less than I make at my day job, but it's good enough (even knowing I'd have to hold a third of that for Uncle Sam) to quit the day job in a hot minute and invest all that money back into the business and write full time and add even more titles to my backlist. More titles, more income, esp if I'm building on the theoretical success of those two series.


I very much look at it in that way too. I'm not expecting a Wool (who is?)(Though it would be nice)(I probably wouldn't buy a boat, though)(Or walk around with my top off), but those sort of small daily numbers, across several books, feels like an achievable goal.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Matthew Stott said:


> I very much look at it in that way too. I'm not expecting a Wool (who is?)(Though it would be nice)(I probably wouldn't buy a boat, though)(Or walk around with my top off), but those sort of small daily numbers, across several books, feels like an achievable goal.


It sure is, and that's what I'm aiming for as well. I'd be very happy with a consistent long tail income. But to get there, I need to get more good books out. SO BACK TO WRITING!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Veronica Sicoe said:


> It sure is, and that's what I'm aiming for as well. I'd be very happy with a consistent long tail income. But to get there, I need to get more good books out. SO BACK TO WRITING!


There's no such unicorn as consistent long-tail income. You stop releasing and stop promoing, it will fall to 0 eventually. Sorry  Sadly there's no magic number of titles that makes this change. Even Wool gets constant promotion to stay high (it dropped pretty low for a while, actually, then with the renewal of the movie option it was pushed back up again by promo). And Wool is a unicorn, if they exist. Books that sell a little each day aren't. They'll sell a little, then fall away to nothing without help.

I don't say this to be a downer. But you can't quit. There's no magic number of books that will sustain. Alas.  So yes, write more good books. But abandon dreams of consistent income. It doesn't exist in this biz.


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## Veronica Sicoe (Jun 21, 2015)

Annie B said:


> There's no such unicorn as consistent long-tail income. You stop releasing and stop promoing, it will fall to 0 eventually. Sorry  Sadly there's no magic number of titles that makes this change. Even Wool gets constant promotion to stay high (it dropped pretty low for a while, actually, then with the renewal of the movie option it was pushed back up again by promo). And Wool is a unicorn, if they exist. Books that sell a little each day aren't. They'll sell a little, then fall away to nothing without help.
> 
> I don't say this to be a downer. But you can't quit. There's no magic number of books that will sustain. Alas.  So yes, write more good books. But abandon dreams of consistent income. It doesn't exist in this biz.


I get that, Annie. And I agree. I never meant / said that I'm looking for a magic bullet, overnight bestseller, or books that sell themselves for the rest of my life without further effort.

All I'm saying is I can't focus on more series at the same time, and that I want to consistently write and publish good books one after another, that bring enough in to feed the production & promo of the next books. With "consistent long tail income" I was referring to consistently building a backlog that I can promote and which keeps selling. Even if that's 1 copy per month per book.


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## Buddy Pilgrim (Aug 6, 2015)

Domino,
Your real genre seems to be UF and yet you're selling in Vampires, Superhero, and Vigilante Justice as of today (It was also Werewolves and Shifters?) Is that intentional, a keyword thing?

Buddy


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Lioncoeur said:


> Domino,
> Your real genre seems to be UF and yet you're selling in Vampires, Superhero, and Vigilante Justice as of today (It was also Werewolves and Shifters?) Is that intentional, a keyword thing?
> 
> Buddy


The power of keywords--to get your book into several relevant categories rather than just the two you pick when you upload a book. Theoretically gets more reader eyes on your book.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Lioncoeur said:


> Domino,
> Your real genre seems to be UF and yet you're selling in Vampires, Superhero, and Vigilante Justice as of today (It was also Werewolves and Shifters?) Is that intentional, a keyword thing?
> 
> Buddy


It's intentional. DEAD MAN was never in Shifters (because there are no shifters - that would piss people off). A West African vampire is very prominent in the book, thus the category. And my fiction is all heavily steeped in Mystery/ Crime/ Noir. Vigilante Justice is a great fit for a black magic outlaw waking up from the dead and getting revenge... and the magic branding is obvious enough that Thriller fans will know what they're getting if they pick it up.

The only real category that irks me is Sword & Sorcery, and that's because any Fantasy book with the keyword "magic" will be put in that category, so my subtitle alone gives me the honor. Most of my categories are what I picked + keywords, but I emailed Amazon and asked to be put in Vigilante Justice.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Personally, I think getting books 1 and 2 out within 30 days of each other is gold. Then book 3 no more than 60 days after book 2.


I SO wish I could do this. But the editing alone takes 3-6 months per book.


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

C. Rysalis said:


> I SO wish I could do this. But the editing alone takes 3-6 months per book.


You could still do it - you would just need to wait to release the earlier books. Granted, the longer it takes to write a book, the more difficult this method becomes (and less cost-effective, maybe).


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## memememe (Feb 16, 2016)

Good luck, Domino. 

I've "engineered" some "bestsellers" in the past, and will type up a thread sharing my experiences soon.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Domino Finn said:


> You could still do it - you would just need to wait to release the earlier books. Granted, the longer it takes to write a book, the more difficult this method becomes (and less cost-effective, maybe).


If I wanted to wait until the series is completed, I'd be waiting at least 2 more years. But I can't keep investing money in editors without knowing if the books will actually sell. When English is your second language, the editing is very, very costly.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

RobCornell said:


> rban fantasy's #20 book is at #191 at the moment!!!!
> 
> Anyway, did you consider this level of competition when you planned what to work on? If so, did you figure "to heck with it, I'm going to write UF anyway," and simply focused on hitting the proper tropes?


Rob, I'm doing the exact same thing, researching and prepping a UF series (trilogy first and then see if it finds readers). The main Paranormal and Urban Fantasy bestseller list is indeed bonkers--top 20 is pretty much Harry Potter and Bella Forrest's series. So I'm digging deeper into the top 100 and also looking at some of the relevant subgenres I'll be hitting and checking those top 100s. There's some granularity beyond straight up Paranormal / UF.


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## Matthew Stott (Oct 22, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Rob, I'm doing the exact same thing, researching and prepping a UF series (trilogy first and then see if it finds readers). The main Paranormal and Urban Fantasy bestseller list is indeed bonkers--top 20 is pretty much Harry Potter and Bella Forrest's series. So I'm digging deeper into the top 100 and also looking at some of the relevant subgenres I'll be hitting and checking those top 100s. There's some granularity beyond straight up Paranormal / UF.


I'm doing the same, UF trilogy, then more if it hits. I guess I'll have to do this research, too. It kinda pains me, I'm not a research guy, but I guess it needs to be done...!


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

awesome, congrats


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

RobCornell said:


> Haha! I don't want to, but maybe I should find a different genre.


There are so many flavors of UF, though. Find your niche!


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

memememe said:


> Good luck, Domino.
> 
> I've "engineered" some "bestsellers" in the past, and will type up a thread sharing my experiences soon.


I look forward to it. I love reading threads with market analysis and how authors tackle genre. It's one of those basics that many authors don't consider.



RobCornell said:


> Anyway, did you consider this level of competition when you planned what to work on? If so, did you figure "to heck with it, I'm going to write UF anyway," and simply focused on hitting the proper tropes?


I honestly didn't consider it because I was already writing in the genre. I just wasn't writing to genre properly. That doesn't mean that my Sycamore Moon mystery mishmashes are bad, but they're not as mainstream, so their audience is limited.

Chris Fox has good advice. It might increase your chances of success. I think first and foremost, you need a popular genre that does well in KU. A good secondary goal might be finding something underserved. I honestly don't have enough experience here to comment, but it is really really hard to rate on the urban fantasy list, especially since it overlaps so much with PNR. More competition means you need to up your game.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I keep you on my KND E book tracker, under a "friends" list, so I keep up with how Dead Man is doing on a daily basis. (and no, I'm not stalking you! lol just supportive and curious.)


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## Sever Bronny (May 13, 2013)

Congratulations, Domino!


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## Buddy Pilgrim (Aug 6, 2015)

"The only real category that irks me is Sword & Sorcery, and that's because any Fantasy book with the keyword "magic" will be put in that category, so my subtitle alone gives me the honor. Most of my categories are what I picked + keywords, but I emailed Amazon and asked to be put in Vigilante Justice."

Weird to see them juggling the book. Out of VJ and into Fantasy?


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## Dom (Mar 15, 2014)

Lioncoeur said:


> Weird to see them juggling the book. Out of VJ and into Fantasy?


It's not being juggled. The categories haven't changed. You're looking at the top lists they show beside the ranking (which do cycle around dependent on rank). Full categories are listed lower on the page, almost at the bottom.


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## Buddy Pilgrim (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks, I didn't know that.


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## JamesOsiris (Mar 23, 2014)

This has been a massively helpful and educational thread. Thanks for sharing, Dom!

Maybe I should start marketing my UF series as being like the Dresden Files, only with Russian gangsters xD


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## dmburnett (Feb 4, 2011)

Just have to give a huge thank you to the OP. I've released several books, gotten decent reviews, some very loyal fans, but no staying power. Then i came across your post (several times). So, I sat down and really analyzed what was going on and saw that all my books were breaking the genre rules somewhere along the lines or were too "in between" genres. Looks like I'll be retooling my outline for my next series.


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## JohnRickett (Jun 20, 2016)

Domino Finn said:


> I think first and foremost, you need a popular genre that does well in KU. A good secondary goal might be finding something underserved. I honestly don't have enough experience here to comment, but it is really really hard to rate on the urban fantasy list, especially since it overlaps so much with PNR. More competition means you need to up your game.


Some quick context for the necro-bump. My current WIP is litRPG. I went to school for programming. Been a fan of video and table-top games my entire life. It's an easy transition for me.

For research, I went digging around Goodreads and Amazon for some higher-ranked stories. I happened upon one in the #300s, Reboot. Loved the cover. Loved the blurb. Bought it. Ate through 25% of it this morning and plan on doing more tonight.

Fast, fun, read. Great humor. Nostalgic. Easy entry. Lots of questions answered up-front. Compelling concept in a relatively new genre that seems to have more readers devouring books than authors who can keep up.

Then, I looked at the author.

"Wait a minute... I have his bestseller-thread bookmarked."

So, I re-read much of the thread, and now I'm curious: Was the move to litRPG another engineered strategy, based on the lack of content of the emerging genre? (It seems like you'd have fun writing it as well)

And also, Congratulations! Reboot is doing very well!


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

JohnRickett said:


> And also, Congratulations! Reboot is doing very well!


It suuuuuure is. Well done, champion.

I've been going through what feels like years of the Story Grid Podcast, and they've just gotten into a section (from around a year ago) where Shawn Coyne is coaching Tim Grahl to take the plunge into LitRPG. It's pretty endearing to hear a muggle talk about how you've got to develop a concept for a "RPG game" world that people would never want to leave.

Dude was right on the money, though. He might not know from RPGs, but he sure knows his stuff about genre. I wonder how many aspiring LitRPG authors they sent into the breach with that podcast. They're the Rob Chris Fox of LitRPG.


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