# How do you know if you're a talentless hack?



## J.L. Dickinson (Jul 12, 2014)

Does anyone else find themselves constantly doubting the quality of their writing? I know it's said we are our own worst critics, but maybe other people are just too polite to be completely honest with us about our writing. How do you know you actually have a talent for writing? 

I read a lot of indie books and most of them are very good, but some are just down right atrocious. I find my self wondering why no one close to them (family/friends) had the heart to tell the author how bad their writing was. Furthermore, why didn't the author realize how bad their piece was? Maybe they don't know allow themselves to acknowledge how bad they are and just chalk it up to being their own worst critic. If that's the case how do I know I'm not doing the same? How do I know those I'm close to aren't being dishonest about my writing in an attempt not to hurt my feelings?  

How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

You are not alone.


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## 3rotic (Mar 28, 2013)

It's hard for me to edit my work at times. I cringe when I go to re-read certain sections, and I definitely go through periods where I'm convinced I'm a talentless hack. I've tortured myself over it, edited books to death and abandoned many projects over the years in frustration at my perceived lack of skill.

And then, at the end of the month, I get $1000+ deposited into my account by Amazon and the doubts are at least temporarily allayed. Or I get fan mail or whatever. Makes me think that maybe (just maybe!) I've been too hard on myself.

At this point I'm content to consider myself a talentless hack who's fooled a lot of people into buying (and enjoying) books.


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## Tim_A (May 25, 2013)

I think they call it "impostor syndrome", where we doubt our ability to do the job and thing that we're going to be found out. Everyone suffers from it to some extent.

But then as you say, $1000 in the bank at the end of the month is a pretty good salve (or $5 in my case, which... more or less... isn't. Oh god I'm a talentless hack!!!  )


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

EelKat said:


> Edgar Allan Poe, Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Lester Dent, and Robert E Howard were all considered talentless hacks during their lifetime. Today readers consider them the classics of their genres.


I'm sure their ghosts appreciate the praise


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## LanceGreencastle (Nov 25, 2011)

Yes. I've got some kind of writing bi-polar where one day I read what I've written and it is the worst thing ever, and the next day I read the exact same text and it's brilliant.


Tim_A said:


> But then as you say, $1000 in the bank at the end of the month is a pretty good salve (or $5 in my case, which... more or less... isn't. Oh god I'm a talentless hack!!! )


"Luckily" I'm averaging $12 per month for 2014.
But the four and five star reviews from complete strangers do comfort me a little. - I won't mention the one stars


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## J.L. Dickinson (Jul 12, 2014)

3rotic said:


> And then, at the end of the month, I get $1000+ deposited into my account by Amazon and the doubts are at least temporarily allayed. Or I get fan mail or whatever. Makes me think that maybe (just maybe!) I've been too hard on myself.
> 
> At this point I'm content to consider myself a talentless hack who's fooled a lot of people into buying (and enjoying) books.


I'm sure that would help some. However, there are some very bad books that make the bestsellers lists, and some that even win prestigious awards despite the fact that they are in reality awful. Of course I suppose the same could be said for music and movies. At times what the masses of society want, and/or pleases the right critics dumbfounds me.


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## 3rotic (Mar 28, 2013)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> I'm sure that would help some. However, there are some very bad books that make the bestsellers lists, and some that even win prestigious awards despite the fact that they are in reality awful. Of course I suppose the same could be said for music and movies. At times what the masses of society want, and/or pleases the right critics dumbfounds me.


Right, I think we're all familiar with this phenomenon.

"Whoa, this book looks to have been written by a second-grader. Full of typos, plot-holes, cliches, crappy cover, awful blurb... and it's selling like hotcakes. How can this be? Life is so unfair!!!"

I used to torture myself over that, too. I don't anymore. I just learned to accept the fact that my own tastes don't necessarily align with the mainstream. People like books for all sorts of reasons, even imperfect books. I figure that if I am just a talentless hack, this tendency is likely a prime driver of my own titles. One person's favorite book may be an utter chore to you. I'm just at the point now where I don't consider myself a super serious artiste who needs to evaluate the merits of my competition.

The best antidote? If you ever stumble upon a book that's selling well and you think to yourself: "Wow, this is crap", then you owe it to yourself (and the many readers unknowingly victimized by subpar literature) to do it better. If someone else can make a living writing what you consider horrendous stuff, then the world eagerly awaits your masterpiece. Put your money where your mouth is and write something that puts it to shame.

Or, you know, just stop caring about what other people read or publish. The market's ultimately going to decide what's viable and what isn't.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't believe in talent. I believe in skill earned through hard work.  

For me, forgetting about something for years and then reading it again helps me assess it more objectively. ymmv.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Are you trying to improve? If you work at getting better at what you do, no matter how often readers tell you you are talented or brilliant or whatever, then you have little to worry about. Of course money helps, but if you love what you do and work at it the money will come. Or so I tell myself.










The Dunning-Kruger effect describes a cognitive bias in which people perform poorly on a task, but lack the meta-cognitive capacity to properly evaluate their performance. As a result, such people remain unaware of their incompetence and accordingly fail to take any self-improvement measures that might rid them of their incompetence.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Lydniz said:


> This ^^^


+1 on this too -

Tis a pity that people seek so much validation - just get on with it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Berryman, by W. S. Merwin

I will tell you what he told me
in the years just after the war
as we then called
the second world war

don’t lose your arrogance yet he said
you can do that when you’re older
lose it too soon and you may
merely replace it with vanity

just one time he suggested
changing the usual order
of the same words in a line of verse
why point out a thing twice

he suggested I pray to the Muse
get down on my knees and pray
right there in the corner and he
said he meant it literally

it was in the days before the beard
and the drink but he was deep
in tides of his own through which he sailed
chin sideways and head tilted like a tacking sloop

he was far older than the dates allowed for
much older than I was he was in his thirties
he snapped down his nose with an accent
I think he had affected in England

as for publishing he advised me
to paper my wall with rejection slips
his lips and the bones of his long fingers trembled
with the vehemence of his views about poetry

he said the great presence
that permitted everything and transmuted it
in poetry was passion
passion was genius and he praised movement and invention

I had hardly begun to read
I asked how can you ever be sure
that what you write is really
any good at all and he said you can’t

you can’t you can never be sure
you die without knowing
whether anything you wrote was any good
if you have to be sure don’t write


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

I think the majority of people will doubt their own abilities. I do constantly. If someone close to me tells me that they enjoyed my story or that it was good, I start to wonder if they are being nice. 

Personally I think doubting yourself can be good. It pushes you to keep trying to improve and do better at something you love. 

The ones who believe they know everything about writing and are the best ones out there... well they can be the worst. They refuse to take criticism and when their work fails to find recognition they blame everyone else. 

I would be happy with more sales - ie. more validation for my work - but at the moment I am just trying to improve and get better. I want to create stories that people enjoy and while I would love feedback from strangers, it isn't essential. Though admittedly the few reviews I have received from strangers have been really nice to read.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

I have a theory: 

If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.

If you've never once considered that you might be a talentless hack, there's a small chance that you are.

I call this the "I'm the Next American Idol" hypothesis. Those with the most bluster are usually tone-deaf. They don't know what a beautiful voice sounds like, so theirs sounds as good as any other. Those who know what greatness sounds like see everything wrong with their own efforts. They come into the audition room shy and bashful, and then blow the judges out of the water.

Great writers know great writing, and they see all that's wrong with their own work. People who don't have an "ear" for great writing don't see a flaw with their stuff.

I'm pretty sure this is a real thing. And it's why I get dismayed by efforts from Wendig and others who caution against publishing if you have any doubts. The people who are most likely to hesitate are precisely the people who need encouragement, not friction. The rest are going to confidently publish, no matter what. Which means the "you better be absolutely sure" effort has the opposite of the intended results.


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## RachelMeyers (Apr 17, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a theory:
> 
> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> ...


Well, as someone who's completely stalling out on editing/revising my first indie novel precisely because I'm pretty sure I'm just a talentless hack...this was incredibly encouraging!  Thank you!

It is a little disheartening to think this feeling won't go away even if you get sales and good reviews though!  Or does that just ensure you stay sharp and keep learning, rather than resting on your "I'm a great writer, the internet tells me so!" laurels?


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Never goes away. We all think that. I think it every time I release a book, waiting for everyone to go "stop writing, you're done because you're no good". And then you shake it off and get back to work. 

You'll never be sure. Like Hugh says, just put it out there. None of us would publish if we were 100% okay. Good enough is publishable. Move on to the next book.


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a theory:
> 
> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> ...


I think you pretty much nailed it Hugh.

I often see the advice to "just publish it, stop revising." While that is probably true at some point, I doubt it is the case for many. I know if I had published even my fourth draft (after getting it edited), it would have paled in comparison with I eventually put out. Even now, I suspect I could have rewritten a bunch of it to better effect. But seeing as some of my edits started to harm more than they improved, I decided to save my book from myself.

I doubt I will ever be as good as those in my genre I admire (Scott Lynch, Joe Abersrombie, Mark Lawrence, Patrick Rothfuss, Brandon Sanderson, etc), I'm going to give it a damn good try. Maybe one day I'll get there, but I doubt I'll ever be truly happy with my own writing.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Oh yeah, keep learning. I pick up new books on writing all the time. I reread the ones I liked. I always pick up something new and interesting, no matter the craft book. There isn't a point where you say, "I've learned enough." There's always a new trick, or your old tricks change to something else over time.


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## btsc99 (Oct 12, 2012)

If you are a "talentless hack" (in my case sales figures conclusively prove that) then try looking for some positive elements.

I took up writing (for the want of a better word) to pass the time and to earn a bit of *** money. My current earnings allow me, on average, to smoke 1 cigarette per fortnight. So on the positive side I have stumbled over a surefire method of giving up smoking.

Perhaps I should write a book about how to give up smoking?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

EC said:


> Tis a pity that people seek so much validation - just get on with it.


+1


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a theory:
> 
> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> ...


As cool as it would be to have a Hugh Howey effect, this is already a hypothesis. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning--Kruger effect is a cognitive bias manifesting in two principal ways:


 Unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.
Those persons to whom a skill or set of skills come easily may find themselves with weak self-confidence, as they may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding.

David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".


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## LBrent (Jul 1, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a theory:
> 
> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> If you've never once considered that you might be a talentless hack, there's a small chance that you are.


I was thinking this, too.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Berryman, by W. S. Merwin
> 
> you can't you can never be sure
> you die without knowing
> ...


Oh, nice. hadn't read that one.


Hugh Howey said:


> I'm pretty sure this is a real thing. And it's why I get dismayed by efforts from Wendig and others who caution against publishing if you have any doubts. The people who are most likely to hesitate are precisely the people who need encouragement, not friction. The rest are going to confidently publish, no matter what. Which means the "you better be absolutely sure" effort has the opposite of the intended results.


All of this.

I just noticed a 'just as good the second time around' addition to 5 star review on a book and immediately started chewing my lips bloody in worry that it really wasn't good enough to get that said about it and started remembering all the things I think are wrong with it and promise myself I'll fix one day when I can find time and ... and... yeah. If you worry about it, nothing's going to stop you. But you can cope with that, just like every other aspect of this particular profession that drives you to distraction and leaves you constantly teetering on the edge of breakdown and dispair.

Breath in. Breath out. Move on.

Do the work. Do the next one better.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> Does anyone else find themselves constantly doubting the quality of their writing? I know it's said we are our own worst critics, but maybe other people are just too polite to be completely honest with us about our writing. How do you know you actually have a talent for writing?


I doubt it all the time. I think that's pretty normal. I know I have some talent for writing, because I've bee told so all my life, by teachers, newspaper editors, and people who are making money writing fiction. Whether that's enough, only the readers can say.



> I read a lot of indie books and most of them are very good, but some are just down right atrocious. I find my self wondering why no one close to them (family/friends) had the heart to tell the author how bad their writing was. Furthermore, why didn't the author realize how bad their piece was? Maybe they don't know allow themselves to acknowledge how bad they are and just chalk it up to being their own worst critic. If that's the case how do I know I'm not doing the same? How do I know those I'm close to aren't being dishonest about my writing in an attempt not to hurt my feelings?


Have you ever watched one of those talent shows, like American Idol? Lots of people think they can sing, and it comes as a total shock to them that the judges don't agree.

How about any episodes of Kitchen Nightmares? Gordon Ramsey meets people all the time that truly believe their food is fantastic, the restaurant is beautiful, and there must be some sort of plot against them that's making them fail.

People often can't believe they have talent, or conversely that they don't. They often won't or can't listen to people who try to tell them the truth.



> How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


You are not alone.

This is where peer support is good. Find a group where people can read and judge your work, with advice on how to improve. (Don't do like I did many years ago, and join a local writer's group that was a clique in disguise. Way to get your ego knocked down.) Knowing that others see your talent is very helpful. I know it kept me going at times when I was ready to give up.

But the best thing is finding the readers who want to read your work. These people will lift you up during those times you want to give up and go work at the corner quickie mart until you retire.

Keep writing, keep learning, keep living.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

That's why I let my manuscripts rest. When they rest, I can judge them. When I'm still in the story, I can't.

The Dunning-Kruger effect actually has an interesting curve in which ALL people think they are above average.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dYgi_MFdShE/UUk53s9J57I/AAAAAAAAAPI/d3daJ7ZPSgY/s1600/dkgraph.png

That's a pretty typical result, there.

So despite the moments of self-doubt, even the most shocking writers probably secretly believe they're really quite decent.

If you don't think your book is more enjoyable to read than at LEAST 80% of traditionally published books in your genre, it's probably crap. I say this because how likely are you to write something you don't like but that's good? Whereas other writers aren't you, so they're much more likely to write stuff that you don't like as much even if it's of the same or higher quality.

I once heard someone say that you know it's time to release when you realize you'd rather read your own book that most other people's. I think that we all get very sick of our books during the editing phase, but with distance, it may be a very fair statement.


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## J.L. Dickinson (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks Hugh, 
I hadn't considered how Cogito ergo sum ("I think, therefore I am"), would apply. It's a comforting thought.



ㅈㅈ said:


> I had hardly begun to read
> I asked how can you ever be sure
> that what you write is really
> any good at all and he said you can't
> ...


+1



EC said:


> Tis a pity that people seek so much validation - just get on with it.


One that requires no validation to confirm or reject their assumptions, might well be a narcissist so consumed with themselves that the input of others is moot.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

For the record, I am probably a talentless hack.

I write anyway. Cause I'm worse at anything else that pays me money, except maybe poker.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm shockingly horrific at poker.  I've always wondered how the D-K effect applies to me because I have an enormous list of things I'm 100% confident that I am very bad at.  Poker is one of them.  I will not be playing you.


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## ElleT (Feb 2, 2014)

Good thread. Good thoughts.

Rachel:   I'm stalling, too. Let's shut this window down and get those babies ready! Best of luck.


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## rjspears (Sep 25, 2011)

I keep hoping I am on the path to becoming a talented hack.


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## Nick Bryan (Jul 3, 2014)

One thing that genuinely helped me get over the fear of being talentless: I joined a writing group which let me hear the work of other people at earlier draft stages and talk to them about their similar worries. Did help me edge a little closer to realising we are all in the same boat, everyone has these thoughts and other writers aren't these amazing mega-machines who produce brilliance first time, then go jetskiing over a shark.

Or words to that effect.


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## valeriec80 (Feb 24, 2011)

I think it's a useful (and kind of fun) exercise to figure out *why* you think whatever thing you read is bad in the first place. And go beyond simple mistakes like grammar and syntax. What makes something bad to you. Why do you hate it? 

And then never do that in your own writing. So, at least you'll know that you don't make any of the mistakes of the bad books you've read.  It won't always bolster your confidence, but it's something to know.

(I like to do this with movies too. I spent a long time trying to figure out why Avatar doesn't work. It's got all the pieces, so why is it *terrible*? I can still think about that one. I have some answers, but I'm always finding more... 'Course, I used to be an English teacher, so I think analyzing stuff is the most fun thing EVAR!)

Final thought: How do you know if you're a talentless hack?

You actually can't know. There is a nonzero chance that you are actually very bad at this. And additionally, there's no metric out there that will tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that you're good.

So, considering it's unknowable, it's probably a waste of time trying to figure out whether or not it's true. Go write another book.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I have spent way too many hours analyzing other people's books and not nearly enough time writing.  I have analysis paralysis, wanting to "do it right" the first time.

However, this over analysis has led me to a conclusion that I didn't want to believe, but now I do.

The average person doesn't freak out (or even notice) things like improperly used hyphens or commas much less misspellings or homophones.  They want to be entertained.  They want a story. 

Some of the top sellers are dripping with purple prose, overworked adverbs and simple, two-dimensional characters. Because while editors and publishers might "fix" these egregious errors, the people who enjoy those stories could not care less if the story starts off with the protag waking up, a paragraph or two of infodump or even (horrors) passive voice.

People who enjoy reading aren't going out of their way to grade the grammar.  They don't want to critique the book, they want to enjoy it.  Sure, the grammar police are likely to warn people away in the reviews, but often they are drowned out by people who want to live in that world or be the protag and can't wait for the next sequel. 

Writing a good story that people can enjoy and relate to is more important than perfecting the writing.  And I don't like saying that because poorly written works grate on me.  I believe everyone should use a good editor and make their work as clean and streamlined as possible before publishing.  But from a sales standpoint, people aren't that picky.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> Does anyone else find themselves constantly doubting the quality of their writing? I know it's said we are our own worst critics, but maybe other people are just too polite to be completely honest with us about our writing. How do you know you actually have a talent for writing?
> 
> I read a lot of indie books and most of them are very good, but some are just down right atrocious. I find my self wondering why no one close to them (family/friends) had the heart to tell the author how bad their writing was. Furthermore, why didn't the author realize how bad their piece was? Maybe they don't know allow themselves to acknowledge how bad they are and just chalk it up to being their own worst critic. If that's the case how do I know I'm not doing the same? How do I know those I'm close to aren't being dishonest about my writing in an attempt not to hurt my feelings?
> 
> How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


I don't think you're alone in this struggle. In fact, I was pretty sure you were talking about me when you gave your bad writing example.  And I wouldn't doubt that half the authors on this board reading your post are sure it's about them too.


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## Carradee (Aug 21, 2010)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> Does anyone else find themselves constantly doubting the quality of their writing?


Yep.



J.L. Dickinson said:


> How do you know you actually have a talent for writing?


When I started writing&#8230; friends who read my stories asked after them specifically, even years later. Classmates begged for copies. Their parents would walk up to me and tell me what a good job I'd done.

Now? Wattpad, actually.  I post 1-2 scenes from a first draft every Friday (Lord willing), and I pretty quickly get responses that tell me how a scene turned out.

The vast majority of the time, the scenes I'm biting my nails over get "THIS IS AMAZING!" from my readers. Occasionally, I get a "I'm confused", which means transitions are missing.



J.L. Dickinson said:


> How do I know those I'm close to aren't being dishonest about my writing in an attempt not to hurt my feelings?


Do they do that otherwise, or no? My friends will figuratively crumple up a story and toss it at my head if it doesn't work. Tactfully, now, and politely.



J.L. Dickinson said:


> How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


I remind myself of how friends and folks outright _ask_ me about my stories, even though they know that can lead into several minutes of talking about them. I remind myself how people, years after they've read a particular story, ask what I've done with it. I look at the comments I've gotten, via Wattpad and e-mail, from readers who have picked up on EXACTLY what I was aiming for.

All that said, I actually *don't* recommend Wattpad to everyone. I work well in posting a WiP, getting reader feedback in the middle, and if someone says "I really want more X" and I'm not planning to give it, I can easily evaluate that without affecting my vision for what I'm working on. It isn't unusual for those comments to help me see other things that are missing or could be added. I actually thrive in that sort of environment. Some writers would stagnate or wither.


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## Drake (Apr 30, 2014)

My work is not exactly Hemingway, but I'm glad that enough people seem to want to read it to keep me fed.  On the other hand, I've read a few things in my genre with decent sales numbers and said to myself "Are they kidding?  This is Crap!"  Hope there aren't too many folks saying the same thing about me, lol.  You have to have thick skin to do any kind of creative work for a living.  There is no shortage of critics.


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## Amy Corwin (Jan 3, 2011)

That Dunning-Kruger effect is fine as far as it goes but it completely fails to take into account those of us who know they lack skills but keep working at it anyway. (Masochist anyone?) Ha, ha.

In fact, it may just be me (but based upon this thread, I think others may also be in the same boat) but the older I get, the more incompetent I know I am. How I long for my late teens/early twenties when I thought I knew a lot (not everything, but a lot) and felt more or less competent. I thought I could learn and subsequently do just about anything. Of course college was the first "brick to the head" when I absolutely could not, for the life of me, learn Latin.

It's been downhill from there. Each year, I learn a bit more about how little I really do know and I see around me people who are billions of times more competent at almost everything than I am. Writing is a great example of that and has the additional "advantage" of providing feedback in the form of reviews and sales that will absolutely prove out your fears that you truly are talentless.

I just *wish* I were a hack, because hacks actually earn a living at what they are doing. Ha, ha. You actually have to have skill to be a hack: you have to be able to develop a plotline and create characters (even one dimensional ones) that folks want to read about. The fact that their writing may be average and not "literary" is not particularly relevant to their audience. Their readers want the next story because it's a good story or its fun to read, not because of its exquisite prose.

So actually, I aspire to hackdom. Haven't reached that lofty goal yet, but I'm still working on it and doing my best to pretend that I'm not completely useless as a writer.

My advice: just keep on writing.
Oh, and do what you can to learn your craft.


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## HarperLin (Jul 10, 2014)

S. Elliot Brandis said:


> As cool as it would be to have a Hugh Howey effect, this is already a hypothesis.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
> 
> ...


I was reading this book called "Confidence: Overcoming Low Self-Esteem, Insecurity, and Self-Doubt", and the core message behind it was that it's better for people to develop their competence rather than confidence.

People with high confidence usually overestimate their competence.
People with high confidence and high competence often find themselves complacent, so they are not as motivated to push themselves to the next level.

But people with lower confidence often underestimate their competence and do better than their confident counterparts.
And people with low confidence and high competence are those who are always trying to break new ground.

How many great artists are so satisfied with their work that they just sit back, pat themselves on the back and call it a day? I haven't heard of any great writers who are so confident with their work that they don't struggle with doubts or frustration.

So I wouldn't worry about being a hack. Maybe it's even good that you're having these thoughts. It means that you want to be better. Work on your competence levels and embrace the fact that your confidence isn't so high and you'll join the ranks of other true writers/artists.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> I have a theory:
> 
> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> ...


Very inspirational. Thanks, Hugh.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

EelKat said:


> Edgar Allan Poe, Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, Lester Dent, and Robert E Howard were all considered talentless hacks during their lifetime. Today readers consider them the classics of their genres.


You forgot Shakespeare  and Snooki.


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## Going Incognito (Oct 13, 2013)

I love books others hate. (Outlander Series)  I hate books others love. (50 Shades)
Seems to me that writing is like dating, or friendship, or life. 
Your perfect mate might make my skin crawl. Some will love you, some will hate you, just because of who you are. Seems the same with books. Some will love mine, some will hate mine. *shrugs* 

Everyone is thought of as a talentless hack by someone. 

Just like dating/friends/life- be the best you can personally be, know someone will hate it, and stick with the ones who love ya.


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## dmac (Jun 23, 2014)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


I look at the fact that my books are constantly collecting reviews and the 5-stars well outnumber the 1-3-stars by a huge margin.

Also, my bank account.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

I don't think that "people thought they were a talentless hack" should be confused with "got into pissing contests with other writers."  Because EelKat's list was #2.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

HarperLin said:


> I was reading this book called "Confidence: Overcoming Low Self-Esteem, Insecurity, and Self-Doubt", and the core message behind it was that it's better for people to develop their competence rather than confidence.
> 
> People with high confidence usually overestimate their competence.
> People with high confidence and high competence often find themselves complacent, so they are not as motivated to push themselves to the next level.
> ...


This is good. This would be my response, too. I have these doubts all the time. Very, very uncomfortable.

I realized the other day that I was striving for perfection. You can't reach perfection. I will always, always see the flaws in my writing and my books. (Interestingly, I'm not a very critical reader. If the story works, if it grabs me and I enjoy it, I'm all good.)

Now, I'm going to strive for excellence. In fact, I have been all along. I know my books won't be perfect, but I work really, really hard to make them the best they can be, and I'm convinced I'm getting better, and my books are too. In any field, that's all we can do. I write a lot about professional athletes. That's what they're doing. They don't sit around worrying about how "talented" they are (as I do). They just work and work and work to get better.

I also realized that it's OK if I'm not the greatest. I don't have to write great literature. I'm just trying to entertain people, and I do seem to be able to entertain some people, and that's wonderful. I write first to entertain myself, to enjoy myself, and second to share what I've written with others who have the same taste I do. I'm working to get more entertaining.

Best of luck, OP! I think most of us have been there at some point. And some of those who haven't, as said upthread, may need to spend a little more time looking in the mirror.  You don't get better by thinking, "I'm great."


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## Kassidia (Sep 14, 2012)

J.L. Dickinson said:


> Does anyone else find themselves constantly doubting the quality of their writing? I know it's said we are our own worst critics, but maybe other people are just too polite to be completely honest with us about our writing.


Yes, I doubt all the time. That said, I have other people help read and edit, and between their observations and the fact that I'm constantly trying to learn more, and to be better, I feel that I am slowly improving.


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## Kassidia (Sep 14, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> You forgot Shakespeare  and Snooki.


Excuse me, I need to go wash my brain out with soap now......


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm fairly sure that I am. I've been told all my life that I've got "talent" for writing, even by my ex. This pays me enough to keep me going while being a full-time caregiver. I bothered getting a writing degree, and I've been writing on all kinds of subjects for years. When I did free labor for the cult I was in, writing and editing are what they wanted me to do. I even have published articles in their cult paper. I have published articles in a lot of other publications too. I've only written for money for almost a decade. But, yeah, when someone tells me my prose is too simple, I still kind of think maybe I should color it up a bit. Oh well. Maybe I spent too many years writing nonfiction. Maybe not. Who cares. I'm the only person who really gets to decide what I do with my life or my time.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> When I did free labor for the cult I was in, writing and editing are what they wanted me to do. I even have published articles in their cult paper.


Wait, what?


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

VMた said:


> Wait, what?


Haha. True story. I wrote propaganda. Writers have colorful lives. Although, being in a cult isn't as glamorous as it sounds.


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

ㅈㅈ said:


> Berryman, by W. S. Merwin
> 
> I will tell you what he told me
> in the years just after the war
> ...


Fantastic. Thank you.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

As the unofficial Kboard  WC reader, I just want to say that those that doubt themselves are usually better writers than those that come in going "I am the greatest ever why am I not getting sales" authors.  The latter group usually think that they don't need anyone to critique their work and put it up with only their eyes ever seeing it.

Now on the singing idea, I was once offered a job as a singer.  Am I a great singer?  NO in huge letters.  Was I better than the two that I was singing with?  According to a dozen people, yes.  Perspective folks.
Did I mention one of them was a semi-professional lounge singer?


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## Diane Patterson (Jun 17, 2012)

I completely agree with everyone else -- "The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt" (reportedly Bertrand Russell). 

However, there is absolutely one thing you need to develop as a writer. This will save your sanity, your friendships, and your wrists (from, uh, overtyping) more than anything else. Hemingway called it "the sh*t detector."

You have to be able to tell when something you're working on isn't working. You can't rely on reviews or what this critic says or what that Goodreads post says. You have to be able to look at your own stuff and say, "This accomplishes 85% of what I set out to do," or whatever. Because if you let your compass get swayed every time someone says, "This is great!" or "This is terrible!" your compass is going to spin like political commentators on election night. 

Once you're in a pretty good position viewing your own work, THEN when a reader says, "I didn't understand this part," or "This writer no rite gud!" you can either take their comments as useful -- "Hm, I could explain this bit better" or "Wow, did they miss the explanation three pages earlier" -- or dismiss them altogether. 

(The best advice I ever got about dealing with comments/critiques/notes was: When someone tells you something's wrong, they're almost always right. When they tell you WHAT's wrong, they're almost always completely 100% wrong.)

Develop a sh*t detector and focus on the work, not on your worth.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Kalypsō said:


> Haha. True story. I wrote propaganda. Writers have colorful lives. Although, being in a cult isn't as glamorous as it sounds.


It doesn't sound glamorous!


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## AngryGames (Jul 28, 2013)

> How do you know if you're a talentless hack?


Click on a picture of me or my profile page. Or, if you're completely foolish (or drunk, stoned, mentally ill, etc.), a single sample page of any book I wrote will provide you with overwhelming proof.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

AngryGames said:


> Click on a picture of me or my profile page. Or, if you're completely foolish (or drunk, stoned, mentally ill, etc.), a single sample page of any book I wrote will provide you with overwhelming proof.


Now Angry one, some of your books are halfway decent. And others are just totally and completely irrevocable crap. Luv ya.


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## Shaun Dowdall (Mar 8, 2013)

I guess it's the same as anything else in life. You do, you learn, you repeat the cycle, improving over time. You'll always critique your own work and wonder if it's good enough, but the great thing about that is you're willing to learn and continue pushing yourself. The real issue begins when you think to yourself that you're right at the top and can't improve anymore. Well, that's my opinion anyway


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

Chris Northern said:



> The Dunning-Kruger effect describes a cognitive bias in which people perform poorly on a task, but lack the meta-cognitive capacity to properly evaluate their performance. As a result, such people remain unaware of their incompetence and accordingly fail to take any self-improvement measures that might rid them of their incompetence.
> 
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect


The flip side to the Dunning-Kruger effect would be that those same people wouldn't be letting their insecurities undermine their efforts to move forward with new projects, new ideas, and new stories. They could continue to produce in ignorant bliss and achieve through mass, brute effort a certain level of success while others crippled with their insecurities (talentless or talented) could fall away into obscurity.


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## dgrant (Feb 5, 2014)

"What nobody tells people who are beginners - and I really wish someone had told this to me . . . is that all of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, and it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not.

But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it's normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story.

It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It's gonna take awhile. It's normal to take awhile. You've just gotta fight your way through."

-Ira Glass


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## Honeybun (Nov 25, 2012)

dgrant said:


> "What nobody tells people who are beginners -- and I really wish someone had told this to me . . . is that all of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, and it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not.
> 
> But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it's normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that quote. *heart*


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Whether you are or you aren't, sooner or later a 1 star reviewer will tell you you are.


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## zandermarks (May 20, 2013)

MyraScott said:


> Some of the top sellers are dripping with purple prose, overworked adverbs and simple, two-dimensional characters.


This is the thing that helped me get past my own "paralysis analysis"--reading a lot of trad-published bestsellers.

They generally fell into three categories for me:

1) "Wow. If I can ever write like this, I'll die happy."
2) "I see what they did there. Nicely played."
3) "I see what they're trying to do. But here's how I'd fix that."

When you find yourself reading more #2's and #3's than #1's (and the change is in you, not in the stuff you're reading), it's liberating and lets you start to do your own thing with less worrying about whether it's "good enough" or not.

As to dealing with the nagging question of "am I nuts for thinking this is good?" my solution was to send my finished manuscript to a friend of mine from high school--someone whose opinion about writing I really respected (the fact that he was now also a literature professor with several published books and a university provost also helped). I knew that if he hated it, he would come back with a diplomatically neutral response. After he came back raving about how it was one of the best things he's ever read in my genre and how it kept him up all night, I knew I wasn't nuts.

So find someone whose opinion you respect, and get them to give you an honest read. One of two things will happen: (1) You'll learn that you've got some more work to do, or (2) You'll stop second-guessing yourself so much.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Ada O'Flaherty said:


> The flip side to the Dunning-Kruger effect would be that those same people wouldn't be letting their insecurities undermine their efforts to move forward with new projects, new ideas, and new stories. They could continue to produce in ignorant bliss and achieve through mass, brute effort a certain level of success while others crippled with their insecurities (talentless or talented) could fall away into obscurity.


Absolutely. Frank Kelly Freas tells a story, somewhere or other, of an absolutely no talent artist who nonetheless made a living by blind dogged persistence; leading, I guess, to the minimum competence necessary. Put any piece of art before enough people and someone will like it, or buy it if only because they recognise the one name and not another.

I agree the ten thousand hour rule. Put in the time and effort and improve at any task. Be gritty. Dogged. persistant. Do not accept failure. Keep struggling on and some measure of success will be achieved.

I still hope for an award of some sort, one I can put some faith in, which will allow me finally to put the ghosts to rest and accept that I wrote something good. And no on can say otherwise with any justification. Having said that, I'd settle for mass acclaim and lots of dough. You really can't beat lots of acclaim and dough for an ego salve.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Here's the thing: what I think is something written by a talentless hack, someone else will think is the greatest piece of work since Austen or Dickens or, I don't know, E.L.James. What I think is wonderful (_Imajica_ by Clive Barker, or _LOTR_ or too many others to mention), others will consider utter crap. {shrug} It's art; it's subjective; it's a matter of opinion, and there'll nearly always be as many opinions in favour of something as against it.

So, yeah, make your work as good as it can be, but don't agonise over it. Life's too short. You'll be a talentless hack to some; to others you'll be the new King or Hemingway or [insert the writer of your choice] That's just it, it's _your_ choice.


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## Geoff Jones (Jun 20, 2014)

> I find my self wondering why no one close to them (family/friends) had the heart to tell the author how bad their writing was.


I shared beta drafts of my book with dozens of people, but I had a difficult time getting them to give me really serious critical feedback. They don't want to be mean. They don't believe they are qualified to express valid criticism.

(Joining a writers group and hiring a professional editor solved that problem. _Participating _in the writers group also helped me get better at identifying problems.)

Geoff


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## Lucas Bale (Jun 4, 2014)

cadle-sparks said:


> I don't believe in talent. I believe in skill earned through hard work.


Agreed, although I would say both exist. There are the top authors to consider - the writers who can craft sentences which are beautiful and breathtaking; who can create plots which are so compelling and infused with insight and comment. A great deal of hard work can get an author close to that level, but I genuinely believe that the authors at the top of their game wield great talent and sweat hard work from every pore.

For the rest, hard work _can_ emulate that sort of ability.



Geoff Jones said:


> I shared beta drafts of my book with dozens of people, but I had a difficult time getting them to give me really serious critical feedback. They don't want to be mean. They don't believe they are qualified to express valid criticism.
> 
> (Joining a writers group and hiring a professional editor solved that problem. _Participating _in the writers group also helped me get better at identifying problems.)


Beta readers are invaluable for critical feedback. Good ones, often those who are authors too, and who you know will tell you _exactly_ what they think and in detail.


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## Geoff Jones (Jun 20, 2014)

I agree Lucas. I got a lot of great feedback from "casual" beta readers, but I had to find some "writer" beta readers before I got the really critical comments that I needed.


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## kjbryen (Jul 3, 2014)

Generally, I'm always in fear of being a talentless hack. My husband has gotten on to me because I'm constantly asking him if my writing is actually good. Sometimes I do think it's good, other times I'm deeply afraid that everyone who has told me I'm a good writer is just being nice, and that I should stop while I'm ahead. I mean, I've read some stuff by people who think they're good writers, and it's just terrible. That scares me to death. 

I will say, since receiving my first actual review this week and receiving four stars, I'm in the zone of thinking that my work is at least halfway decent. I'm sure the anxiety will set back in, but I'll try to enjoy this little spurt of confidence while it lasts


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Sam Kates said:


> Here's the thing: what I think is something written by a talentless hack, someone else will think is the greatest piece of work since Austen or Dickens or, I don't know, E.L.James. What I think is wonderful (_Imajica_ by Clive Barker, or _LOTR_ or too many others to mention), others will consider utter crap. {shrug} It's art; it's subjective; it's a matter of opinion, and there'll nearly always be as many opinions in favour of something as against it.
> 
> So, yeah, make your work as good as it can be, but don't agonise over it. Life's too short. You'll be a talentless hack to some; to others you'll be the new King or Hemingway or [insert the writer of your choice] That's just it, it's _your_ choice].


I really like Clive Barker's work. Weaveworld was the last I read. Excellent. And, in a way, confirms your point. If you take a look at the reviews there are people who 1 starred this excellent work (which I find slightly horrifying, actually) but the 5 stars far outweigh them.

So, I guess my point is majority rule. Put the work out there and see what happens. If the bell curve skews to the high end, then you have something, something to work with. Maybe talent, maybe sweat, maybe some skills, likely some of all of those things. Who cares how much of which? We keep working. And improve and maybe get lucky and make a living doing what we love.

Imajica goes on the reading list, btw. For some time when I feel I deserve a treat.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

jswww said:


> And every danged book I've written just gets worse and worse.


Ha. I thought I was the only one.


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## Sam Kates (Aug 28, 2012)

Chris Northern said:


> Imajica goes on the reading list, btw. For some time when I feel I deserve a treat.


It's a treat, all right. One of those books that I return to every few years; that I wish I'd written. Yet some will hate it, which is fine and is the point I was making. I hope you fall into the 'love it' category - I'm kind of envious that you're getting to read it for the first time. Enjoy!


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## jlmarten (May 9, 2012)

My wife used to argue with me whenever I began berating my writing. Now, after so much of my bluster, she just rolls her eyes and says, "Whatever."

When I first started writing in earnest several years ago, I promised myself that I would not do what I did when I was young and studying art. A high school teacher wanted me to submit a work to the regional show. I refused. She submitted it behind my back and it went on to win highest honors at the national level. Fast forward a few years, and the same thing happened in college, only this time the work ended up in the collection of a major metropolitan museum. In both cases, I was sure the work was sub-par.

Now, many years later, my hard drive is getting clogged with unpublished stories because my stomach churns whenever I reread them. But I promised my wife that this year, come hell or high water, I would either polish and publish, or give the whole thing up. I can't imagine giving up.


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## 77071 (May 15, 2014)

Talent is so subjective.  Some people say it's inborn, some people say it's developed through hard work and effort.

Hack?  Well, that's all in people's minds, frankly.  If you write things that people enjoy, someone will no doubt think you're a hack.  And if you don't, other will still think that!

Focus on things you can do to help you improve, not judging yourself against others, or trying to see the end result of how you'll be viewed in years to come.

We're telling stories.  We're writers.  But we don't have to call ourselves talentless hacks or believe that kind of thing, just because we're not where we want to be yet.  

News flash: I bet no author is.


*edit* apparently someone who's tired shouldn't be spelling things on the inertet


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

You know, I've never been afraid of my books being BAD.  I know they're not BAD.  I've gotten RT Top Pick, PW starred reviews, glowing reviews in LJ, and a fistful of reader awards and nominations.

BUT........

What I've always been terrified of is being one of those perfectly competent writers who can never write anything special ENOUGH to win those diehard fans that make a career.  I have a list of midlist writers who I'm afraid of being.  (Won't mention them--unkind.)  Their books are always good but never good enough.  Never special.  They never really stay with you.

So when readers tell me that they're marking the calendar or they dreamed of my book or whatever, THAT'S when I let out a very, very tense breath.    Because the worst fate for me is being good at all those things that you can work at and control but just not having the right vision to grab readers just the right way to make them love your work.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Meh. I may be a talentless hack, but I'm having an awesome time hacking!


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## kjbryen (Jul 3, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> Meh. I may be a talentless hack, but I'm having an awesome time hacking!


This. So true. That's really what its about, isn't it? Doing what we love


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Hacks are clueless as to being hacks. If you try to point out that their writing could be stronger, they get offended instead of taking good advice. If you are questioning your work, you are probably not a hack.


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## Twizzlers (Feb 6, 2014)

I pretty much think my writing is horrible, so I sympathize with this feeling greatly. 

I've been picking up steam lately and having good sales but then I just tell myself "It's the genre you're writing in, it has nothing to do with your writing ability. You still suck."


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## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

Hugh Howey said:


> Great writers know great writing, and they see all that's wrong with their own work. People who don't have an "ear" for great writing don't see a flaw with their stuff.


It is incredible that *the* Hugh Howey makes time to come to WC and give words of encouragement to those of us who are struggling. Thank you, Hugh.


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## LarryWilmot (Jul 31, 2012)

I would ask my wife, though she seems to reserve the label for Shania Twain.


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## Sam Winterwood (Jun 25, 2013)

I totally feel like a hack. So much so after reading my current series the other day I had to unpublish it.

Yup.


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## DarkScribe (Aug 30, 2012)

It's easy to find out whether you are a talent-less hack. Ask the reviewers who described J.K. Rowling's early efforts in that manner.


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## sophia ann (Jul 9, 2014)

Oh thank god it's not just me that worries about this!


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## btsc99 (Oct 12, 2012)

sophia ann said:


> Oh thank god it's not just me that worries about this!


Given the current state of the world, I wouldn't be surprised if God has the occasional quiet ponder.


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## Nick Bryan (Jul 3, 2014)

I try not to overthink this question as it never leads anywhere good. I've had enough decent feedback and reviews to feel like someone other than my mum/friends enjoys the stuff, so I can't be completely without talent. That'll have to do for now.


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## Sylvia R. Frost (Jan 8, 2014)

Oh, I know I'm a talentless hack. And I'm so glad of it. 

For example I have "talent" as a singer. I was/am blessed with a very beautiful voice. All I have to do is open my mouth and I'm good. Not great mind you, but good. But I never had the drive to practice. I didn't have the sight-singing ability or the wherewithal to spend three hours a day sitting down, learning the diction/practicing. I also ended up in classical music, where I felt I spent all my time learning how to fit my voice into someone else's conception of good. 

With writing no one ever told me I had talent. Okay, that's not true. One or two teachers told me I was good, but just as many told me my writing was disorganized, sloppy, and overly complex. I never won contests. No one, and I mean no one, ever told me I should be a writer. Even when I did start to be okay sometime in college, the first response of one of my professors was to accuse me of plagiarizing. No joke. 

But I couldn't stop working on it. Still can't. I just know in my bones if I had "talent", I would've gotten funneled to a creative writing MFA somewhere and started writing literary nonsense and become worn out on writing by the time I graduated. Then I would have spent some time shopping a manuscript, gotten rejected and probably been too disdainful of self-publishing to come here. Or maybe not. 

But either way I know that the things I have the most talent for are rarely the things I work the hardest at. I still think I have /some/ natural capacity, and I'm happy enough with the quality of my writing to be planning on publishing in September, but do I think it will be the best thing ever written, or even the highest level of art I'm capable of producing? Doubtful. 

But you know what? I love writing. I love the work of it.  And for me that makes talent irrelevant. In fact, sometimes knowing I'm not the best, that I will never even get close feels so so freeing. It allows me just to work hard at becoming the best ME instead.


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## MarcyB (Feb 10, 2013)

So glad to know I'm not alone. It is so encouraging to see the big numbers posted on KB, as I am a major lurker, but when you feel like you've been taking all the advice everyone is giving and still only averaging one book a day or whatever it may be, it's easy to be filled with self-doubt. Thanks for the "community" you all provide!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

valeriec80 said:


> I think it's a useful (and kind of fun) exercise to figure out *why* you think whatever thing you read is bad in the first place. And go beyond simple mistakes like grammar and syntax. What makes something bad to you. Why do you hate it?


I agree!! I was just talking to my husband about this the other day.

He *thinks* he really, really wants to do stand-up comedy. He admires the long-time pros who always look so cool and confident when they're performing (not realizing that many of them actually suffer from horrific stage fright and that starting out a set can be agonizing for them -- I tried to tell him that the "cool look" is part of the performance routine that helps get them into the right frame of mind to perform. It's a mask they're wearing, not their actual personas.) He's convinced that if he just does a set and acts super-cool the whole time, it'll be hilarious.

I told him that humor has less to do with the demeanor of the comedian than he thinks. Jokes are funny because of the similarities they have to other funny jokes -- humor, like story, shares certain characteristics that trigger a familiarity response in the audience. Truly inventive and envelope-pushing comedy is so extra-funny because of the new angles with which it looks at the familiar components of humor. Again, NOT because of the stage persona of the comedian (except in very rare cases.)

I told him that if he really wants to try out comedy, he should start going to every open mic night he can, and watch total newbies attempt to start out, as well as seasoned comedians trying out brand-new material. He should watch these performances with a very critical eye, and take notes, and analyze what DOESN'T work. Then look at his notes: what ISN'T funny? Instead of focusing on how admirably unflappable Louis CK looks when he's doing a well-rehearsed set, focus on what DIDN'T make you laugh in all this untested material from a wide variety of comedians.

This was how I developed my own self-analysis skills for my writing: reading a lot of books I thought sucked, and focusing on why they sucked. Then NOT doing those things. (Before I was serious about my writing, I'd just stop reading a book if I thought it sucked. Then I started to see suckage as an opportunity to learn. Now I actually buy some books expecting them to suck based on their samples, and I read them to analyze the suckitude.) This is the equivalent of watching Open Mic Night and taking copious notes.

I think it's very important for any writer to do this, and do it all the time, whether you're writing books or jokes or blog posts or whatever.



> Final thought: How do you know if you're a talentless hack?
> 
> You actually can't know. There is a nonzero chance that you are actually very bad at this.


I think that's true, because "good" and "bad" depend on who you ask, and everybody's got different standards. But I think you CAN know, more or less, if you've hit your own quality goals...or at least you can come fairly close to knowing. However, it takes that legwork of reading A LOT and analyzing the hell out of what you read.

Picking apart a work critically trains your brain to flip itself from pure-enjoyment/fantasy mode into rational/analytical mode. Contrary to what some people say, you can do that with your own work. It just takes conscious practice. (I wouldn't recommend editing your own work, because you'll miss a lot of typos...but if you've practiced self-analysis a whole lot, and practiced it in the right way, you'll be able to tell yourself whether your story is exciting, interesting, paced well, has compelling characters, etc.)

As for the people who don't know they're talentless hacks... I really think it's because they don't read enough. Or don't read at all. I've read a few books and been so appalled by their unspeakable, fundamental badness that I ventured to the authors' web sites to see what the hell was going on. In every case, it was clear that the author had a real desire to be seen as A Writer. They had an image in their heads of what writers were, and they wanted that coolness, the way my husband wants to be as cool as Louis CK. But they never did the work of going to Open Mic Night and analyzing... in fact, they never did the equivalent of going to ANY comedy performance, EVER. They thought they could be Louis CK just because they wanted to be, so they threw it all out there and bombed horribly.

I can always tell the writers who don't have any love of reading. Their work has certain characteristics in common that tell you loud and clear that they don't know what a story is, they don't know what readable narration looks like, and they don't think anybody else knows, either. They're wrong, but they're so disconnected from the world of books that they don't realize their potential audience can see through their I'm A Writer disguise with a single glance.

So that's my long way of telling you, "If you read a whole lot*, you're most likely not a talentless hack. If you have no interest in actually reading books, you probably are a talentless hack."

*Audiobooks and other audio narration (podcast stories, etc.) count as "reading."


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

VMた said:


> You know, I've never been afraid of my books being BAD. I know they're not BAD. I've gotten RT Top Pick, PW starred reviews, glowing reviews in LJ, and a fistful of reader awards and nominations.
> 
> BUT........
> 
> ...


Good point well made. It's the 'can't wait' for more/the next one/something else readers who really matter. I guess if you have some fans there really is nothing to worry about. A reasonable level of success will come as soon as you get enough 'eyes on.'

Breath in. Breath out. Carry one.


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## Philip Harris (Dec 15, 2013)

Add me to the long list of people suffering from imposter syndrome. Or maybe I really am a talentless hack and the various editors and readers that like my stuff are deluded.

I'll never know!


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## ScottS (Jul 3, 2012)

To the best of my knowledge, while discounting the few naturally-gifted outliers, none of us come out of the womb with the ability to write the next Pulitzer winning novel. Practice, persistence, and an open mind to constructive criticism can help transform any "hack" into a well-oiled writing machine. 

And I agree with Hugh. If you ever question your talent, it means you are open to change. And change is how good becomes great.


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

Hugh Howey said:


> If you worry that you might be a talentless hack, you probably aren't.
> 
> If you've never once considered that you might be a talentless hack, there's a small chance that you are.


Agreed. In my case, I remember being so afraid of being a "talentless hack" that I started reading every editing book I could find and everything on writing, and tons of great books by folks I admired, looking for the secret to not sucking. Still looking...


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## johnlmonk (Jul 24, 2013)

ElHawk said:


> I told him that if he really wants to try out comedy, he should start going to every open mic night he can, and watch total newbies attempt to start out, as well as seasoned comedians trying out brand-new material. He should watch these performances with a very critical eye, and take notes, and analyze what DOESN'T work. Then look at his notes: what ISN'T funny? Instead of focusing on how admirably unflappable Louis CK looks when he's doing a well-rehearsed set, focus on what DIDN'T make you laugh in all this untested material from a wide variety of comedians.


...and your whole reply, incredible, hi-5.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

I should point out, lest anybody think I'm picking on my hubby and his ambitions, he's actually REALLY funny. Just not when he's trying to be funny. He's a natural, and he doesn't know how to tap it. Yet.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

ScottS said:


> To the best of my knowledge, while discounting the few naturally-gifted outliers, none of us come out of the womb with the ability to write the next Pulitzer winning novel. Practice, persistence, and an open mind to constructive criticism can help transform any "hack" into a well-oiled writing machine.
> 
> And I agree with Hugh. If you ever question your talent, it means you are open to change. And change is how good becomes great.


I like this! Here's to trying, and falling down, and learning, and getting up to try again.


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## chele (Jun 5, 2013)

btsc99 said:


> If you are a "talentless hack" (in my case sales figures conclusively prove that) then try looking for some positive elements.
> 
> I took up writing (for the want of a better word) to pass the time and to earn a bit of *** money. My current earnings allow me, on average, to smoke 1 cigarette per fortnight. So on the positive side I have stumbled over a surefire method of giving up smoking.
> 
> Perhaps I should write a book about how to give up smoking?


Thank you so much for this post! You just made my day!

I think I'd be the first person to buy your book... Though, I wouldn't be able to use my earnings money, if that's being spread to one drag a day.


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## B.A. Spangler (Jan 25, 2012)

At least once a day I flip back and forth between: I love my writing - I hate my writing - It's Good - It Sucks!! It's exhausting.


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## kjbryen (Jul 3, 2014)

kward said:


> I recognize being a passionate and voracious reader will help me to not be a talentless hack (if that's possible) - perhaps there is a skill-set with reading that I don't have that accounts for my lack of reading stick-to-it-ive-ness?
> 
> Thoughts?


Honestly, I think just loving books in general is what matters..... not all books are going to grab you. I have plenty of books I couldn't finish just because they were too slow for me, books from really talented writers even. what books do you finish, and what is it about them that makes you want to finish? what do they have that the other books don't? I bet analyzing that, and constantly trying to find and read books that achieve that goal could help you with your writing


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Off topic:  How to quit smoking: realize that new whatever is only X number of cartons.
Example: A basic kindle is less than 2 cartons.
An Ipad is roughly 10 cartons.


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## btsc99 (Oct 12, 2012)

♨ said:


> By deductive reasoning. First, spot the talentless hacks. Next, estimate their sales or see if they post about their sales anywhere. Then, compare their sales or estimated sales against your own. If they are outselling you, it may be time to consider other career choices.





J.L. Dickinson said:


> How do you validate yourself and keep your inner critic at bay? Or am I alone in this struggle?


* Talentless hack raises hand *

Just under 2 years publishing on Amazon, currently 6 books, grand total of 19 sales, 0 borrows.

Validate yourself J.L. Dickinson.



Spoiler



My guess is that you feel a lot better now, don't you?


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## Lyoung (Oct 21, 2013)

Paul K said:


> I'm sure their ghosts appreciate the praise


Mehehehehehe


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## CASD57 (May 3, 2014)

I've been in the hack mode for about a week..


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

kward, I'm curious to know a few examples of books you *did* finish. That would probably show what you truly like. 

As for myself, I suffered from having the "talent"--I've been told all my life that I write beautiful prose. But beautiful prose and good story telling are two entirely different things. I've been working for 20 years to learn how to spin a yarn that grabs a reader and doesn't let go. That to me is worth more than all the pretty prose and beautiful writing, because those things don't sell a book.  The STORY does. 

So yes, in that sense, I'm still a hack. I'm working on it.


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## Perro Callejero (Dec 23, 2013)

I've been "writing earnestly" for 20 years (since I was 15, I'm 35 now).  Today I was revising a serial omnibus I'm releasing in August, and I was overcome with the feeling that it was a pile of garbage and that I should just forget about writing all together.

But I'm gonna publish it anyway.


... And Mr. Sam Winterwood, hearing you unpublished your series totally bummed me out.


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## jeffaaronmiller (Jul 17, 2012)

My own writing is never, ever good enough for me. First, it never fully conveys what I had in my mind. Second, the more I reread the same pages, the worse they sound. I obsess over repetitions of word and phrasing. The most fun I have in the whole process is cranking out that first draft, and I refuse to allow myself to go back and read any of it until the whole first draft is done. During that phase, I can tell myself that what is on paper is just as good, just as harrowing, thrilling, haunting, beautiful, etc. as what was in my imagination. And when little mistakes make it through the editing process and into the published work, even the tiniest mistakes, they drive me crazy and steal all of my joy over getting published. Of course, it is possible to step back and give myself an honest assessment, in which case I would say that I am just good enough, at best.

Oh well. What can you do? I did have an interesting experience in college. Growing up, I was always the writer in the family, and relatives and friends heaped praised on me. When I turned in my first creative writing assignment in college, I was convinced that I had produced a gem, and I felt sorry for all of the other writers in the class. And then we had open criticism time, and my little story got absolutely savaged. I was genuinely shocked. But I suppose it was the best thing that ever happened to me.


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## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm going through a period of extreme doubt myself, as I go through my stories and the illustrations for them, getting ready for releasing an illustrated version. I read the stories, trying to figure out where best the illustrations should go, and feel "I wrote that? People are actually spending money for that crap?" I can see the germ of a good story in some of them, but it's so buried, so pale and wan, hidden in what actually got written.

this is part of what's paralyzing me with my latest set of stories. I'm scared of them, that I won't do the idea justice.


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## kjbryen (Jul 3, 2014)

kward said:


> My problem is I do usually do not finish a book unless I am truly enjoying it and it's rare that I enjoy anything I read - more often than not I put a book down by page 80 and don't bother to pick it back up. The list above represents my entire adult life of reading, some 20 years, it's pitiful. This, going by ElHawk's evaluation, is how I know I'm a talentless hack writer. I'm doing something wrong in my reading process, correct?
> 
> Also not sure what the list above says about my sensibilities either - I feel a bit ashamed that the list is all books written by men.


I'm not sure, is it possible to read a book wrong?
I wouldn't worry about it. The books you listed, though completely different, are all good ones  Just ask yourself what you enjoyed about them, then try to strive for it. As for the fact all the books were written by men, you can't really control that..... it just happens to be all male authors at this point who have captivated you. 
But, even if we are all talentless hacks, at least we're having fun, right?


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## CesarAnthony (Jul 10, 2014)

Tim_A said:


> I think they call it "impostor syndrome", where we doubt our ability to do the job and thing that we're going to be found out. Everyone suffers from it to some extent.
> 
> But then as you say, $1000 in the bank at the end of the month is a pretty good salve (or $5 in my case, which... more or less... isn't. Oh god I'm a talentless hack!!! )


$5, Lol. That's around what I made last month too. 
Yay, Early retirement, here I come!


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

kward said:


> I do love reading - through the years I have bought and started reading hundreds of books - BUT - I have a hard time staying invested in nearly every book I pick up because of one or more to the following reasons:
> 
> a. I get bored quickly - the work just doesn't grab me even if I recognize the writer is an exponentially better writer than I am.


Two things could be going on here: you're either not reading books with subjects that interest you, or you have a hard time "reading" the old-fashioned way, with your eyes. Maybe you should try reading with your ears. Have you tried out audiobooks?

My mom and her boyfriend both have pretty bad dyslexia. They're both very intelligent and have no problem comprehending words -- their brains just prefer to receive words verbally instead of as weird little black marks against a whitish background. I've never had any trouble comprehending written words, but it's always been so tough for my mom that when I was in the third grade she had me proof-reading her college papers just to catch errors for her that she couldn't even see due to her dyslexia.

So naturally, they both LOVE audiobooks. They both have subscriptions to Audible now, and they have a great time listening to every book they can get their hands on. They've one through so many that I've run out of audiobooks to suggest to them (and I also listen to a TON of audiobooks.)

If you have a hard time focusing on written words, but you still love story and want to improve your writing (and we ALL want to improve our writing, no matter where we are experience-wise), maybe you should try a different delivery method! Your brain might click with story better if it's verbal instead of written.

Now, the reason why I specified audiobooks in my original post, and not movies or TV shows, is because narrative voice is such a huge part of writing a book. You get story in the medium of film, but you seldom get narrative voice. You seldom get description of the world, either -- that's all done visually instead of with words.

So find a different way of consuming books, and see if that helps.

If that doesn't help, then you're just not reading the right books for you. You can understand that Hilary Mantel is a way better writer than you are (she's a way better writer than everybody) but if highly literary, introspective historical fiction that goes way inside one character's head isn't of interest to you, you're going to have a hard time focusing on it. Mantel's two books about the Tudors are some of my favorite in all of literature. I LOVE them. But my sister couldn't make it through an hour of the first volume's audiobook, because she just doesn't give a rip about that kind of book.

Horses for courses. If you want to write sci-fi, read sci-fi. If you want to write The Great American Novel, read literary fiction. If you want to write romance, read romance.



> b. The whole time I'm reading my mind drifts off on various tangents thinking of new story ideas that spring from what I'm reading or I get lost in my own mind *thinking about ways I would change the story to make it more enjoyable/more entertaining*


Well, that's GOOD. That's how you read critically. Keep reading the book, but keep those critical analyses in the back of your head. Take notes, if it helps you. This is how you develop the ability to self-analyze: you analyze others' works first. Do this more, and try to remember that slightly distant, very logical mood you're in when you do this. See if you can train yourself to flip over into that mood when it comes time to read back through what you've written and decide what to keep and what to cut.



> c. The work seems amateurish


Well, that's not your fault! Though I'd push myself beyond just thinking, "This seems amateurish," and ask yourself WHY it seems amateurish. What about it strikes you as apprentice work?

For example, I've noted that a lot of historical fiction (my genre, so I keep returning to it) written in first person seems amateurish. After thinking about it a lot, and reading a lot of amateurish first-person HF, I finally came to the conclusion that many writers who pick this perspective have a tendency to drop detail from their narration. Detail is a crucial feature of the HF genre, and without it, the story feels very flat no matter how action-packed it is.

I also noted that the narrative tends to feel like more "tell" than "show" -- and after reading some GOOD HF in the first person perspective, I concluded that the amateurish stuff feels amateurish because those writers seem to use first person as an "intimacy crutch" -- they think that just because they use the pronouns "I" and "me," the story will feel more intimate to the narrator's experience, and the reader will feel more drawn into this exotic setting by the close tie to the narrator.

In realizing the difference between amateurish first-person HF and GOOD first-person HF, I learned that perspective doesn't create a sense of intimacy with a narrator. Sensory detail and frank discussion of that character's emotions create a sense of intimacy between reader and narrator. Now if I decide to do first-person in HF, I'll know what kind of approach I want to take.

So that's how you use critical reading to improve your own writing.



> Because of reasons a & b mainly, I've finished maybe ten novels in my life (I'm 39 btw) even though as mentioned I've started hundreds of books and am constantly buying more (just ask my long suffering wife).


You can still read a lot without finishing the books you're starting, though. If you're learning something from those books, you don't HAVE to see them all the way through...although of course learning how to pace a book through to a satisfying ending is also a very important skill.

I abandon more books than I finish, too, although I try to understand my reasons for disliking a book before I discard it. There's a lesson for me in every book I hate, and even in every book that just plain bores me.



> perhaps there is a skill-set with reading that I don't have that accounts for my lack of reading stick-to-it-ive-ness?


Try audiobooks. Humans have been consuming story for as long as we've been humans, but for tens of thousands of years, we only consumed story via oral storytelling. The earliest known novel written dates to about 1500 BCE, from ancient Egypt. 3500 years of written story is a TINY fraction of human evolution. Our species is more familiar with oral storytelling than with marks on paper. Or papyrus.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2014)

How to tell if you are a talentless hack:

1. You _never_ doubt your own abilities...even in the face of indisputable evidence

2. When confronted with constructive criticism, you lash out that the person is just jealous of you or is a "hater"

3. You firmly believe that things like spelling, grammar, and punctuation don't matter. Only "the story" counts

4. You believe poor reviews are always the result of a conspiracy against you personally and cannot possibly be because someone simply does not like your book

5. You believe that if your sales are lower than someone else's, it is because readers don't recognize "real" talent and just want the "same old thing" and people who are bestsellers are just pandering.

I think that covers it.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

kward said:


> Writing beautiful prose is nothing to sneeze at, I would love to have that ability.
> 
> And to answer your question - these are the (fiction) books I can think of off the top of my head that I've finished (unintentional rhyme):
> 
> ...


I see different writers and genres, but similar styles in the writers you've mentioned. You seem to like a simple no-frills style with shorter words, quick pacing and almost brutal honesty. Have you tried other books by the same writers? I wouldn't recommend some of Stephen King's longer works because I bet you would get bored with them, but possibly some of his earlier stuff like The Dead Zone or Firestarter might be good. Animal Farm by George Orwell is another one I really enjoyed, and also The Sun Also Rises by Hemingway.


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## ElHawk (Aug 13, 2012)

As an author of literary fiction, let me assure you that lit fic will ONLY improve your writing if you want to write lit fic!

If you want to write beautifully-worded genre fiction, there are lots of authors you can turn to for learning and inspiration. You'll find gorgeous and experimental writing everywhere. 

And give audiobooks a shot. The narrator has a lot to do with how much you'll enjoy the experience... some are definitely better than others.

If you DO want to try some lit fic, I can recommend the audio version of Lolita read by Jeremy Irons as one of the best, most listen-able audiobooks I've ever heard. I doubt you'll have a hard time sticking to it... Jeremy Irons, being a professional actor, really knows how to present a story in an engaging way.

But you can also search Audible by narrator. Some of my favorite narrators include the following folks:
Stefan Rudnicki
Gabrielle DeCuir
Davina Porter
Scott Brick
Simon Vance
Roy Dotrice

These people all REALLY know their trade very well. I have to give a shout-out to my own narrator, Amanda C. Miller, whom I picked for my two (so far) audiobooks because her excellent style reminds me so much of the people listed above.

Search up these narrators' titles, and then see if your local library has the audiobook versions. And you can also listen to samples on Audible before you buy (or check out from your library!) so you can get a feel for the narrator's style in advance.


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## miadrey (Feb 14, 2014)

I am pretty sure I am a talentless hack. I don't have typos or grammar issues. It's just... I kinda suck.

Eh. Sometimes I let it eat at me until I can't bear to bring fingertips to keyboard. Other times I just say "**** it, this is the only thing I know how to do with any competence."

Self-doubt can kill your dreams. But wouldn't it be better to prove all those doubters (whether in your life or in your head) wrong?


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I've always been a reader rather than a listener, but sometimes an audiobook can really bring a book to life. For example, I'd tried several times to read Heart of Darkness and given up, but then I found an audiobook version of it on Librivox and listened to it, and found it absolutely amazing - really chilling, just like I imagine it's meant to be. After that I read the book from cover to cover. I'm so glad I gave the audiobook a try or I'd never have got through it.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

kward said:


> Hmm - perhaps I should rethink my aversion toward audiobooks.  BTW, I have 'Heart of Darkness' on my bookshelf and have yet to crack it.


Give it a go - you might be surprised! I also found audiobooks very useful when I was recovering from eye laser surgery and couldn't read for obvious reasons.


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## MyraScott (Jul 18, 2014)

I just listened to _The Help_ on audiobook and it was amazing. Reading dialect can be annoying but listening to it read was really immersive.

Neil Gaiman's _Ocean at the End of Lane_ on audiobook (read by the author) was both wistful and chilling.

With a 45-minute commute to and from work, I find that sitting in traffic is a lot less stressful when I'm enjoying a book. It feels like I'm accomplishing something instead of just wasting time.


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## megadams (Jul 24, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> Give it a go - you might be surprised! I also found audiobooks very useful when I was recovering from eye laser surgery and couldn't read for obvious reasons.


+1 Audiobooks SAVED me when I was going through multiple eye surgeries. Even now, I struggle to read standard print for long (hence why kindle is another lifesaver). I have become incredibly picky about my narrators, though! Definitely try them out. I love being able to "read" and do chores like housework while I listen.


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## Paul K (Jan 11, 2014)

Audiobooks SAVED me from dying of boredom at work countless times


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## WDR (Jan 8, 2014)

My mom says I'm a good writer...

When I look at how my sales are doing, this question comes to the forefront in my mind. I do start to think, maybe I don't have what it takes. Considering the financial difficulties I'm dealing with right now, it gets worse.

I vetted my book with three people close to me who I trust to give me their honest opinions. One was a voracious reader, the second enjoyed high-end science fiction, and the third might read one book every two years. All three came back with it saying they couldn't put it down. Reviews of my book keep popping up and they all say the same thing: great read. Two of them, even stated they couldn't stop reading it and ended up staying up all night to finish my book--high praise indeed!

So, despite my self-doubts, I have to accept that there are at least 30 people out there who thought my writing is good to excellent.

Yet, if _50 Shades of Grey_ can sell 50 million copies, why can't I sell at least 10,000? Oh, well. The self-doubt continues.


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