# Writer Beware of Ridan Publishing and Robin Sullivan



## ashel (May 29, 2011)

Ann Crispin of Writer Beware has posted to her facebook about cancelling her contract with Ridan Publishing. I think there have been other writers who have had issues with Ridan, and I'm not privy to what's been going on behind the scenes, but radio silence from a publisher combined with no royalty payments seems like a pretty big deal. I know Robin and Michael Sullivan used to be active on these boards, but in the spirit of writers looking out for other writers, I thought this merited a post.

(Edited the title to provide, possibly, more of a google alert type thing in case Robin Sullivan wants to actually address any of this stuff.)

Link to FB post: https://www.facebook.com/ann.crispin.5/posts/10152179006475440

Text of FB post:

"As of yesterday, I have terminated my contract with Ridan publishing. If you have been thinking of buying any of my StarBridge novels, please do not, at this time. In particular, please don't purchase them from the Ridan website, because I have received complaints that Ridan is not filling orders for my books.

When I signed on with Ridan, it was a thriving company. I checked out their bottom line, and investigated them thoroughly. Their authors spoke enthusiastically about the company and its owner. But in the past six months or so, Ridan has pretty much stopped communicating with me. My last two certified letters, which included the contract termination letter, were never picked up at the post office. Even though StarBridge came out on December 5, 2011, I have never received a royalty payment from Ridan.

I know some of you were waiting for books 6 and 7 in the StarBridge series. Those books were turned in months ago, edited and ready to go, but they have never been released.

It's my understanding that the CEO of Ridan had some serious personal problems last winter. I am sorry for that. But I have to think of my co-authors, and my series. In my opinion, Ridan has not, so far, acted in good faith. I wrote to them one last time yesterday, advising them of the steps they must take and reminding them that they no longer have the right to sell the five StarBridge they have released or the two they have not.

I hope that my email will be read, and all of this can be resolved in a civil fashion.

If you are interested in the StarBridge books, please know that I am not abandoning them. I plan to re-release them myself as soon as I can commission cover/graphic art, and we re-convert the files. Those who have purchased the Ridan titles should not be affected by this change. I'm very sorry it has come to this."


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

That's disappointing, though not surprising. 

Thank you for posting. It's always unfortunate, but at the same time authors need to know, especially authors like me who tend to work a lot with small publishers. 

One of my requirements now for small publishers is that they have more than 2 un-related staff members. I know that sounds weird, but I've found that too many micro publishers can't handle the business plus real life when they don't have non-related staff. Three staff members means that someone can get sick and someone else's kid can get sick and there is still one another person to carry the weight for the short time.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

My experience with small publishers has been negative enough that I would no longer consider working with one. Very few bring more to the table than a reasonably well-funded indie author does. (There are exceptions but you can probably count them on one hand) I'm truly sorry to hear that because the people involved with Ridan are ones I like. I have absolutely no doubt they are well intentioned, but people in small publishers tend to get in over their heads. Life happens and they have no backup. Finances get tough and they have people other than themselves counting on them.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I've been following this story too. I know Robin had some personal issues, but that was months and months ago and, frankly, still no excuse for what's happened. I'm amazed that any professional (publisher, cover designer, etc) would do what Ridan has, or in this case, hasn't done. I've seen Michael here on the boards and Robin at conferences and yet emails go unanswered, book purchases unfulfilled and payments unsent. 

Appalling.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

This is indeed upsetting, and I think Krista's requirement of unrelated staff members (before she'll cosnider a publishing house) is a good one. Yes, things happen, but when you open a business, you still have responsibilities and obligations that must be taken care of even through the personal problems.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Monique said:


> I've been following this story too. I know Robin had some personal issues, but that was months and months ago and, frankly, still no excuse for what's happened. I'm amazed that any professional (publisher, cover designer, etc) would do what Ridan has, or in this case, hasn't done. I've seen Michael here on the boards and Robin at conferences and yet emails go unanswered, book purchases unfulfilled and payments unsent.
> 
> Appalling.


That is truly disappointing. There is the other side of it that I don't think anyone wants to mention, that sometimes people are irresponsible or worse. I would like to think it isn't the case here, but it happens.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

...or vacationing while not paying a woman who lives in the US and, therefore, needs money to help pay for her chemo.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> This is indeed upsetting, and I think Krista's requirement of unrelated staff members (before she'll cosnider a publishing house) is a good one.


It's the mistake I made and that I came to regret in one case. The people involved were very nice, but there was only one paid staff member (I don't count freelancers employees if they are paid after the fact).

Right now, I work with a couple of publishers that have 3-5 staff members, plus their freelancers. It makes a difference. For example, in one case, someone got very sick. It took a few days for someone else to get all of the passwords to get up to speed but that's it. 3 days lost. Anyone can suck it up for a week or two; six months is unacceptable - and I've gone through that and it just makes me angry to no end.


----------



## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

genevieveaclark said:


> You know what...
> 
> I understand stuff happens, but they were posting about their vacation in August, while not responding to authors and not paying their royalties. My sympathy cupboard is pretty bare, to be honest.
> 
> http://riyria.blogspot.com/2012/08/vacationing-under-yellow-umbrellas.html


What recourse does Ann Crispin have? 
How do you extricate yourself from this mess? 
Shameful and inexcusable behavior on the part of Ridan Publishing. How long before they pop up under a different company name?


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Oy vey, is I can say.

I know Robin spoke at the Fall for the Book Festival at George Mason University last weekend. I didn't attend, however. But the part about vacationing while not paying royalties is, just, wow.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I know at least one other writer who is going through the same shabby treatment, and someone who has made Ridan _a lot _of money. I don't understand it myself. Why not hire someone to pick up the slack? It's not like this was a failing enterprise. It's as if the publishers lost interest in the whole enterprise except for the part where Amazon, et al deposit large sums of money into their bank account.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> It's not like this was a failing enterprise. It's as if the publishers lost interest in the whole enterprise except for the part where Amazon, et al deposit large sums of money into their bank account.


Did the problems start around the same time that the Orbit deal and the foreign rights deals for the husband's books started popping up? Because for a while there (and I'm talking a long span of months), it seemed like the wife only popped in here to brag about the latest foreign rights deal she bagged for her husband. Obviously she's proud of him, but it seemed to me like she was spending significantly more time hyping her husband's books than the rest of her publishing house's catalog.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> Did the problems start around the same time that the Orbit deal and the foreign rights deals for the husband's books started popping up? Because for a while there (and I'm talking a long span of months), it seemed like the wife only popped in here to brag about the latest foreign rights deal she bagged for her husband. Obviously she's proud of him, but it seemed to me like she was spending significantly more time hyping her husband's books than the rest of her publishing house's catalog.


That's why it seems like a case of losing interest when something bigger and better came along. But still, who torches their reputation like that? And they could have found someone in five minutes on KB who would have picked up the slack for a modest salary. And if you don't want to do that, send regretful emails saying you're suspending your operation, then spend an afternoon shutting things down, mailing off final checks, etc. There are a zillion ways to do this without screwing over a bunch of writers.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Amanda Brice said:


> Did the problems start around the same time that the Orbit deal and the foreign rights deals for the husband's books started popping up? Because for a while there (and I'm talking a long span of months), it seemed like the wife only popped in here to brag about the latest foreign rights deal she bagged for her husband. Obviously she's proud of him, but it seemed to me like she was spending significantly more time hyping her husband's books than the rest of her publishing house's catalog.


I definitely think it's a conflict of interest if you run a publishing business and your spouse is one of the major authors under contract. Of course you're going to spend your time pushing the books that earn you the most money. (Your husband's books.)

It's sad how this has played out.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

EXACTLY, Michael.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Yeah, no matter how I play out the scenarios none of them make sense. I can't fathom why someone would intentionally implode like this. It's self-sabotage (and taking down others) at its worst.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

This is very upsetting. I had a huge amount of respect for Robin and her knowledge of Indie publishing. Seriously, I'm shocked and appalled.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Victorine said:


> I definitely think it's a conflict of interest if you run a publishing business and your spouse is one of the major authors under contract. Of course you're going to spend your time pushing the books that earn you the most money. (Your husband's books.)
> 
> It's sad how this has played out.


Not a conflict of interest per se if it's disclosed upfront, but to me it's definitely a red flag. If I see a small press and the major authors involved are the owners and/or relatives of the owners, then to me that signals a need to tread carefully.

It can definitely be done and be quite reputable and work (Belle Books is a good example -- it was founded by Deb Dixon and Deborah Smith and some others, and they still publish their books, but publish others as well; The Knight Agency is another example -- Deidre Knight is the founder and the Big Agent, but she's also an author in her own right, represented by a different agent at the agency, and her husband is the VP of the agency as well as being an author in his own right), but generally I like to see more diversity in the ownership.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Even more shocked to see this blog post by Ann Crispin, detailing her horrific struggle with cancer. Meanwhile, in that exact same time period, Ridan acquired her series, sold a bunch of copies, and hasn't paid her a cent. Being exhausted and beaten down by chemo, with medical bills to pay, I'll bet she could have used the money Ridan has been holding back all year.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Monique said:


> Yeah, no matter how I play out the scenarios none of them make sense. I can't fathom why someone would intentionally implode like this. It's self-sabotage (and taking down others) at its worst.


It is possible to think of a scenario but one no one really wants to consider. I hope they'll do the right thing here. Why destroy your own reputation like that? It can't possibly be worth it.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> Even more shocked to see this blog post by Ann Crispin, detailing her horrific struggle with cancer. Meanwhile, in that exact same time period, Ridan acquired her series, sold a bunch of copies, and hasn't paid her a cent. Being exhausted and beaten down by chemo, with medical bills to pay, I'll bet she could have used the money Ridan has been holding back all year.


Particularly chilling is Ann's mention that StarBridge would be her only source of income this year. Those are the books she's not being paid for, for reasons unknown.

I thought M. Sullivan's deal with Orbit was a very lucrative one. I have a hard time imagining why someone with that lucrative deal and income from big sellers like Nathan Lowell and Joe Haldeman would be unable to pay royalties owed. Boggling.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

I'd advice AC to get a lawyer and take Ridan right out.

She's not some small-time author with no idea of her rights. This is a woman with contacts and connections through the industry.

A pox on RS's head for doing this to an ill woman. The last thing AC needs right now is to deal with this and I hope she hands it off to some SFWA lawyer who's going to take Ridan down for the count.

JMO.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

Weird. Maybe Ann Crispin should try contacting Michael Sullivan via Reddit (MichaelJSullivan)--he's a frequent contributor to the /r/fantasy subreddit, to the point where they've made posts thanking him for his active participation in the group.

He was active just three or four hours ago, submitting links and commenting.

Odd that he'd be so hard to reach through these avenues when he has plenty of time for the internet.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

He posted on Kindleboards yesterday actually. I'll go find the post.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

smreine said:


> Weird. Maybe Ann Crispin should try contacting Michael Sullivan via Reddit (MichaelJSullivan)--he's a frequent contributor to the /r/fantasy subreddit, to the point where they've made posts thanking him for his active participation in the group.
> 
> He was active just three or four hours ago, submitting links and commenting.
> 
> Odd that he'd be so hard to reach through these avenues when he has plenty of time for the internet.


I'm fairly certain I saw a post from Michael here on KB either today or yesterday.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I had been secretly hoping someone at that conference Robin was a panel member of the other day would have stood up and asked point blank in front all and sundry.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

OK, I was wrong. It was just this morning that Michael was here:
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128570.msg1902838.html#msg1902838

Monique...had I known about all this, I totally would have gone and asked her point blank. I'm not shy like that. LOL


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Amanda Brice said:


> OK, I was wrong. It was just this morning that Michael was here:
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128570.msg1902838.html#msg1902838
> 
> Monique...had I known about all this, I totally would have gone and asked her point blank. I'm not shy like that. LOL


Dang it!


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> OK, I was wrong. It was just this morning that Michael was here:
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128570.msg1902838.html#msg1902838
> 
> Monique...had I known about all this, I totally would have gone and asked her point blank. I'm not shy like that. LOL


Ironic, considering AW is where the story broke about Ridan's non-payment to their authors...


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Man. Screw it. I'll say it.
> 
> If true (and I've heard elsewhere that other writers are in a similar situation, so, I'm inclined to believe it is), *I don't know what else to call this besides theft.* According to these reports, Robin Sullivan has money that doesn't belong to her, books that no longer belong to her, and she's keeping them despite the demands of the rights holders. Whether she set out to do this is...I don't know, and I don't care. But at some point, actions speak louder than words. Until she makes it right, I really don't know what else to call it.
> 
> ETA: Also, stealing from someone who's trying to pay for chemotherapy? Seriously? Is she a cartoon villain? Maybe public shaming will get her to pay out those royalties.


I hate thinking the worst about people I've liked, but yeah, that's exactly what we are all thinking. What else can you call it. I find if very HARD to believe they don't have the money to pay their authors.

They need to make this right and make it right now. There may still be time to save their reputations, but this looks worse than terrible.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

SherylNantus said:


> Ironic, considering AW is where the story broke about Ridan's non-payment to their authors...


I was totally thinking the same thing.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

I totally want Amanda on my team! Any team at all.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

To be fair I don't know how much Michael Sullivan has to do anymore with Ridan. I believe he's signed a contract with Orbit for more books in his series so he might not have anything to do with Ridan now that he's with Orbit.

He may not even know about the nonpayment. It all depends on how Robin's been handling things. If he's out of the loop it's not quite cricket to dogpile onto him for his wife's mishandling of the company.

Just a thought...


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> OK, I was wrong. It was just this morning that Michael was here:
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128570.msg1902838.html#msg1902838
> 
> Monique...had I known about all this, I totally would have gone and asked her point blank. I'm not shy like that. LOL


You would have been ignored, much like they have been ignoring countless emails from stiffed writers, and refusing to sign for certified letters from writers trying to get their money/cancel contracts. None of this is breaking news to Ridan. It's only a testament to how badly authors want to work stuff out that it hasn't broken months ago.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Well, it is theft, no matter what the excuse is. Even if your house burns down and you contract leprosy and your fingers all fall off. You still own a business and have signed contracts with authors. You MUST pay them. No matter what.

So, yes, if they don't pay, it is theft.

I understand business. There are expenses. There may have been some poor business decisions and the money might not be there. Too bad. You STILL have to pay. Poor business decisions isn't an excuse not to pay.


----------



## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

SherylNantus said:


> To be fair I don't know how much Michael Sullivan has to do anymore with Ridan. I believe he's signed a contract with Orbit for more books in his series so he might not have anything to do with Ridan now that he's with Orbit.
> 
> He may not even know about the nonpayment. It all depends on how Robin's been handling things. If he's out of the loop it's not quite cricket to dogpile onto him for his wife's mishandling of the company.
> 
> Just a thought...


Could be. But I find it hard to believe he is that out of the loop. I'm sure at least some of the authors have tried to contact Michael when their pleas to Robin went unanswered. In their shoes, I would have tried multiple ways to contact one of them to find out what the heck was going on.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

My name is first on my house's mortgage. If I don't make the payments, the bank isn't going to take it easy on my husband because I mismanaged our finances.

They are partners in life and business and equally liable.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Well, obviously he's around. In fact, they both are. Would be...odd, if either of them chose to remain silent on this now.


It'll be interesting to see what happens, if anything. I just hope all the writers get what's due them and quickly.


----------



## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

I guess this is one more reason to stay Indie


----------



## Debra L Martin (Apr 8, 2010)

I think it's appalling that they can go on vacation and yet, not make their royalty payments to authors they have under contract. I agree with Vicki--it's theft and the company is liable for those payments.

I will not be the least bit surprised to see a string of lawsuits filed against the company. You can only push people's understanding and patience so far.


----------



## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm not defending or supporting any party involved because I don't know either side personally or otherwise. I just want to suggest that some of you should edit your comments *for your own sakes*. You can't accuse people of commiting crimes without evidence. It's defamation (ask a lawyer).


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

I think there is nothing wrong with saying, "If these allegations are true, this is theft." And that is all that has been said.

It's quite clear that the person isn't saying, "These people are definitely thieves! I don't care what anyone says--they should be shot!" They are making a pretty general statement: "Wow, if this is true, Ridan Publishing has engaged in behavior that is criminal."

This is a simple statement of fact. If there is a pattern and practice of this, the owners of Ridan Publishing should not only be sued--someone should investigate to see if they are misappropriating for personal use property that they have a fiduciary duty to keep for their authors, and if they've engaged in fraud in entering into contracts. If they are doing that, they should be tried and they should go to jail.


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

I just cannot, cannot grasp the mindset of people who would do this sort of thing.  Even if they do intend to pay people eventually (and the current evidence calls that into question) - they should be speaking to the authors, apologising, explaining, trying to find a solution.  I really hope that everyone caught up in this gets their money (and their rights) as soon as possible and with the minimum of fuss and stress.  My sympathies to any Kindleboards authors who've been hit by this.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

I don't have a horse in this race.  I understand why people are angry.  I would be too.  It is a shame and very disappointing.  

I would just like to fling one thought out into the wind here.  The point could be totally wrong, but nobody has really made this point yet, so I will try because I want to see what people think.  

If Ridan is incorporated (an assumption on my part), then I don't think that the debts of the company magically become those of the Sullivans.  They (or just Robin?) have worked hard on this for a long time and during that time deserved to take a salary or something home as pay for that.  If they made bad decisions and somehow don't have enough money in Ridan to pay, then Ridan could possibly need to go into bankruptcy.  That would be a huge bummer for all involved.  But it doesn't seem to me that there is an obligation for the Sullivans to personally follow it down.  They do not need to give up 100% of their personal wealth or time to try to save it.

People are angry that they blogged about a vacation while things were in flames.  That would rub me the wrong way too, but there are cases where people really just cannot function and need a vacation.  If the money for that vacation came from them and not Ridan's account, then that could well have been the best choice for their time.  Recharge the body and mind and come back stronger.  I dunno.  I have never met either of them and have no idea whether they have been enriching themselves through Ridan with the hopes of using Ridan's incorporation as a firewall to protect their own haul or what.  But I can sympathize with someone who works hard on a business and then gets so fried that they cannot physically continue to work.  Condemning them for enjoying a vacation or for having time to go to an event or to post something seems unfair.  For the silence, okay.  For continuing to go into a hole without a plan for how to get out again and not telling the authors, okay.  That's bad.  But I don't think that quite equals theft necessarily.  They do not need to personally use their own money to save Ridan.  If a court thinks they did something wrong, then the money can be ripped back out of their personal account.  I don't think we (meaning I) know enough to call them thieves.  Yes, it looks like they are in over their heads and not handling it the way they should.  People definitely needed to voice that out in the open so that nobody else gets into a mess.  But I hope people won't take it out on the Sullivans whenever they are seen having personal lives.  They don't need to be ruined personally over a failed business venture unless they were doing illegal stuff in said venture.  I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, simply not paying according to a contract is not necessarily the same as theft.  I don't think that alone is a criminal offense.  Bad, yes.  Hard on one's reputation, yes.  Hard on others, yes.  I hope that they will be able to face reality and break the pattern of silence and do their best to right things.  But I am not calling for their personal ruin.  Not that my opinion matters much since I have no books with them.  

Just a thought that maybe until we know more about what is going on, we should draw more of a line between Ridan and the Sullivans.  They are not quite the same thing.  

Still, if I were I Ms Crispin, I would be so angry that I wouldn't be able to see straight.  I hope there is at least some money forthcoming for all involved.

What do folks think?  Is it mainly the silence that is the worst of this?  Or should an entrepreneur be personally ruined when a small press fails?  I think there is some oft-quoted stat that 9 of 10 businesses fail.  I think people can be forgiven for trying to move on to the next try without destroying themselves trying to pay back the debts of the previous business.  But I do think that a failing business should not be sucked dry by the principals before any indication that there is trouble.  I have no idea whether that happened here.  Just curious what people think because I might like to do something similar (though not a publisher--not sure the world needs more of those) and I wonder how to handle disaster should it happen to me.  Thanks for any thoughts.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

GuyF said:


> I don't have a horse in this race. I understand why people are angry. I would be too. It is a shame and very disappointing.
> 
> I would just like to fling one thought out into the wind here. The point could be totally wrong, but nobody has really made this point yet, so I will try because I want to see what people think.
> 
> ...


_If_ they are the sole owners of the corporation, they DO have an obligation of good faith to be in touch with their authors and to release works they can't pay for. IF it went into bankruptcy, the publishing rights would be assets of the bankruptcy proceedings which is a real horror for authors. I know authors who have gone though that.

I don't know all the facts of their situation, but there is an appearance of not acting in good faith and trying to ignore these problems. This is terrible. The should do what they can to protect and keep their word with the authors who have trusted them. This does not seem to be happening.

ETA: As far as drawing a line between the Sullivans and Ridan, they didn't in posts and on forums so I'm not going to draw it for them. As a matter of fact, they used their personal reputations to draw authors to this publishing company, so as far as I'm concerned they have an ethical if not a legal obligation to the authors. I am horrified at what I am reading.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

There's a big difference between saying "This person is engaged in theft" and "If what has been alleged is true, then this is theft." The first is potentially defamation (assuming the statement is incorrect, because the truth is always a defense against accusations of defamation), whereas the second is merely a conditional statement.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

GuyF said:


> I might like to do something similar (though not a publisher--not sure the world needs more of those) and I wonder how to handle disaster should it happen to me.


With more forthrightness and transparency than this one's being handled, that's for sure.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

GuyF said:


> If Ridan is incorporated (an assumption on my part), then I don't think that the debts of the company magically become those of the Sullivans. They (or just Robin?) have worked hard on this for a long time and during that time deserved to take a salary or something home as pay for that. If they made bad decisions and somehow don't have enough money in Ridan to pay, then Ridan could possibly need to go into bankruptcy. That would be a huge bummer for all involved. But it doesn't seem to me that there is an obligation for the Sullivans to personally follow it down. They do not need to give up 100% of their personal wealth or time to try to save it.


Unless they incorporated in a state other than Virginia (their home state), Delaware, or New York, or incorporated under a name other than "Ridan Publishing," it is not incorporated. Someone who has a contract with Ridan can affirmatively say what the contract says, but they do not hold themselves out to be a corporate entity on their website or anywhere else. Given the way the business appears to be run, I think it would be seriously easy to pierce that particular corporate veil.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> _If_ they are the sole owners of the corporation, they DO have an obligation of good faith to be in touch with their authors and to release works they can't pay for. IF it went into bankruptcy, the publishing rights would be assets of the bankruptcy proceedings which is a real horror for authors. I know authors who have gone though that.
> 
> I don't know all the facts of their situation, but there is an appearance of not acting in good faith and trying to ignore these problems. This is terrible. The should do what they can to protect and keep their word with the authors who have trusted them. This does not seem to be happening.
> 
> ETA: As far as drawing a line between the Sullivans and Ridan, they didn't in posts and on forums so I'm not going to draw it for them. As a matter of fact, they used their personal reputations to draw authors to this publishing company, so as far as I'm concerned they have an ethical if not a legal obligation to the authors. I am horrified at what I am reading.


Okay, so it is more a matter of people thinking this can't have been handled in good faith, not so much that people think the people behind a failed venture need to go down as well. That is also a good point about using personal reputation to attract business to a company (if it is even incorporated). Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

GuyF said:


> Okay, so it is more a matter of people thinking this can't have been handled in good faith, not so much that people think the people behind a failed venture need to go down as well. That is also a good point about using personal reputation to attract business to a company (if it is even incorporated). Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.


Seems to me that it's only a failed venture because the owners stopped paying people, not because they couldn't.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

genevieveaclark said:


> They've had several bestselling ebooks and series. It is virtually inconceivable to me that their costs as a small publisher could have exceeded their revenues, given honest business practices.*
> 
> They are not printing up special gold-plated hardcover editions. They're not buying the printing presses themselves. It's just ridiculous.
> 
> ...


True. I guess we don't really know whether they are in the red. As MichaelWallace says, perhaps they actually *can* pay but just have not for whatever reason. That would be kind of nice if they just got focused on some personal problem and didn't handle the business. Perhaps the money is actually there to be doled out by a court if necessary.


----------



## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Courtney Milan said:


> Given the way the business appears to be run, I think it would be seriously easy to pierce that particular corporate veil.


Yes. Admittedly I haven't searched extensively to find out what their business entity structure is, but I didn't find them incorporated in either Virginia or Delaware (the two most likely states). Courtney has checked into NY (I haven't) and hasn't found them there either.

Looking at how they hold themselves out on their website and and how their business appears to be run, it really seems as piercing the corporate veil would be very easy, and their personal assets could be at stake.


----------



## Tracy Falbe (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm sorry to here Ann Crispin is having problems with her publisher. I've read some of her novels and she's a wonderful novelist.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

GuyF said:


> True. I guess we don't really know whether they are in the red. As MichaelWallace says, perhaps they actually *can* pay but just have not for whatever reason. That would be kind of nice if they just got focused on some personal problem and didn't handle the business. Perhaps the money is actually there to be doled out by a court if necessary.


You don't know what that means to be dole out by the court. It can tie up works for literally years.

Edited to take out angry part. I shouldn't post on this further. The more I think about it, the angrier I get.


----------



## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

Sockpuppet?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

cdvsmx5 said:


> Sockpuppet?


?


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> You don't know what that means to be dole out by the court. It can tie up works for literally years.
> 
> Edited to take out angry part. I shouldn't post on this further. The more I think about it, the angrier I get.


Yes, you are correct that I have never been through that. Major delay possible if it goes that way, plus I was also not considering that legal fees would likely reduce the amount available for the authors. I hope it doesn't happen that way.

Also, to cdvsmx5, if you refer to me, you might consider me a sockpuppet. I think an "alt" is the usual term. My normal handle is not GuyF. I wanted to ask for opinions on something that seemed possible to be highly charged for some people. I think I learned what I wanted to. Namely that an apparent lack of good faith is what people object to more than the fact that the owners of Ridan might not put their own money into saving it. (Well, there may not even be any difference between Ridan's money and their own if they have not actually incorporated, but I has been assuming that they had.) I have tentative plans to go into business and I have not decided on how much risk one can take knowing that people will lose money if you fail. To be 100% safe about it might make a business unable to keep up with with less timid competitors and might increase the chance of going out of business. THough in that case, if one went under, one should be able to do so gracefully and hopefully with reputation intact. I wanted to hear what people thought about it here. I hope I have not offended. I am speaking the truth when I say that I have no connection to Ridan nor to the Sullivans nor any of the authors involved with Ridan to the best of my knowledge. Since I have nothing to add in terms of info, I did not think that my identity (or credibility) were important.


----------



## Nell Gavin (Jul 3, 2010)

This is why we self-publish, gang. This is why.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Pretty discouraging how many "I was scammed by X" threads there are on KB at the moment. At least in the case of a bad artist you're only out time and a couple hundred bucks. Imagine if you had thousands of overdue royalties from a publisher and your books were tied up in limbo. Ugh.


----------



## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

GuyF said:


> Yes, you are correct that I have never been through that. Major delay possible if it goes that way, plus I was also not considering that legal fees would likely reduce the amount available for the authors. I hope it doesn't happen that way.
> 
> Also, to cdvsmx5, if you refer to me, you might consider me a sockpuppet. I think an "alt" is the usual term. My normal handle is not GuyF. I wanted to ask for opinions on something that seemed possible to be highly charged for some people. I think I learned what I wanted to. Namely that an apparent lack of good faith is what people object to more than the fact that the owners of Ridan might not put their own money into saving it. (Well, there may not even be any difference between Ridan's money and their own if they have not actually incorporated, but I has been assuming that they had.) I have tentative plans to go into business and I have not decided on how much risk one can take knowing that people will lose money if you fail. To be 100% safe about it might make a business unable to keep up with with less timid competitors and might increase the chance of going out of business. THough in that case, if one went under, one should be able to do so gracefully and hopefully with reputation intact. I wanted to hear what people thought about it here. I hope I have not offended. I am speaking the truth when I say that I have no connection to Ridan nor to the Sullivans nor any of the authors involved with Ridan to the best of my knowledge. Since I have nothing to add in terms of info, I did not think that my identity (or credibility) were important.


Sockpuppet!


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

cdvsmx5 said:


> Sockpuppet!


Serious question... Does your driver license list you as cdvsmx5?


----------



## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

GuyF said:


> Serious question... Does your driver license list you as cdvsmx5?


No, it actually lists them as cdvsmx5.1 - but only their family call them that.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

If by "alt" you mean you have another KB ID, GuyF, you're gonna get spanked.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

It is against the KB rules to have an alternate handle, I believe. Having said that, GuyF doesn't read like a Ridan shill.


----------



## Guest (Oct 5, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> It is against the KB rules to have an alternate handle, I believe. Having said that, GuyF doesn't read like a Ridan shill.


Oh, I didn't realize that was against the terms. I will desist it and email Harvey as the other me in a moment.


----------



## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> ... Having said that, GuyF doesn't read like a Ridan shill.


Well crafted to divert attention w/o being obvious.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around *anyone* doing this.


----------



## Gabriela Popa (Apr 7, 2010)

"At Ridan we are passionate about the writers we publish. In an industry where *author's** scrape by, and usually have to maintain a "day job" to make ends meet, we are pleased to find the true gems in both old and new works which, when properly produced and marketed, can find an enthusiastic audience. We believe that the author, not the publisher, should make the lion's share of the profit..."

_Parole, parole, parole..._

PS. *my bolding of their typo


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Jim Hines weighs in. This is gonna leave a mark.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/10/crispin-and-ridan-publishing


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> Jim Hines weighs in. This is gonna leave a mark.
> 
> http://www.jimchines.com/2012/10/crispin-and-ridan-publishing


That is an *excellent* letter.

Edited: Fixed the link.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

Ugh. This kind of behavior is simply indefensible. I remember when Nathan's books were delayed, and the AW forums first highlighted Ridan doing this, I felt sorry for Robin (after all, she had gone through a serious loss and most of her authors seemed to support her). But with how loudly Robin has trumpeted her success and support of indies and the rights of authors... I'm honestly shocked. I can't believe her authors have had to deal with this kind of behavior all year long...


----------



## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> Jim Hines weighs in. This is gonna leave a mark.
> 
> http://www.jimchines.com/2012/10/crispin-and-ridan-publishing


Has this been taken down? I can't read it.

And I'm so disappointed to hear about this. I've done two podcasts with Robin, and she seemed to care so much about writers. So sad. I hope it gets cleared up for the writers' sakes, but I would think there's no recovering, reputation-wise.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Hugh Howey said:


> Has this been taken down? I can't read it.


I think the link had a typo. It should be fixed and working now.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

genevieveaclark said:


> Man. Screw it. I'll say it.
> 
> If true (and I've heard elsewhere that other writers are in a similar situation, so, I'm inclined to believe it is), *I don't know what else to call this besides theft.* According to these reports, Robin Sullivan has money that doesn't belong to her, books that no longer belong to her, and she's keeping them despite the demands of the rights holders. Whether she set out to do this is...I don't know, and I don't care. But at some point, actions speak louder than words. Until she makes it right, I really don't know what else to call it.
> 
> ETA: Also, stealing from someone who's trying to pay for chemotherapy? Seriously? Is she a cartoon villain? Maybe public shaming will get her to pay out those royalties.


My husband is too much of a gentleman to say much. I am not so constrained -- I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded section of your statement. That was the world *I* was taught for the taking and keeping of things that do not belong to you. And learning what I have today about Ann's situation is utterly rage-inducing.

I'd say more, but I fear my own modest writing skills would not be up to the task.

(...run the spell check, Kay. Sheesh).


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Kay,

Your husband is a scholar and a gentleman. If I were in his shoes, I'd be all *hassan chop*!


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

Monique said:


> Kay,
> 
> Your husband is a scholar and a gentleman. If I were in his shoes, I'd be all *hassan chop*!


Thank you. I obviously agree. And to Rex up above: I remember it too. It's not hard to remember something that is ongoing...


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Just to weigh in on the "theft" part, it is technically not the very specific criminal act of theft. Contracts are involved, and assuming that some royalties were paid, it doesn't meet the requirements of fraud by contract.

In the looser spirit of the word, one could apply the term "stealing," but without the true criminal definition. To steal or be guilty of theft, one must take property of another without permission. The contract negates the "without permission" part because an agreement was entered between the parties. Since royalties were paid (again, assuming since the posts talk about "unpaid since x date"), the criminal intent of fraud is obviously not present. Withholding royalties later is a civil matter with civil recourses (court, lawyers, damages or settlement).

In the US, civil law is separated from criminal law in order to protect debtors from criminal punishments, like jail, prison, and state-issued fines.

Best thing for the authors would be to bind together for a class action suit. You can fight more effectively as a group, and as a group, the unit can usually get a better attorney or team of attorneys.

To think I almost considered submitting to Ridan at one time. How livid I would be at these turn of events.

When I originally heard about this story, I was worried about what might have happened to Robin. However, if she's been to conferences and such, I cannot sympathize. It's easier by far to do paperwork and mail checks than it is to run the tour circuit, speak at conferences, travel, and all of that. Not even a, "Hey, sorry guys. It's taking a little longer than we expected. We will pay by X, as stated in your contracts."

Not even a "Hey." Nothing.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

As you might suspect, we've been watching this thread and discussing it in the smoke-filled admin caves. At this point, the discussion has been calm and reasoned, despite being an obviously emotional issue. The only thing I'm asking at this point is that the discussion remain centered about what you know.

Thanks,

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I truly sympathize with the parties involved. I have no words for what it would mean to me to have given up my rights, and then NOT receive the money owed to me. I think it stings even more that the alleged bad business dealings is being conducted by people we considered our own. 

The truth is that this needs to be yet another cautionary tale for authors, even should it all work out because clearly royalties are delayed. There is a risk every single time you give up a stake in your writing, to whomever it may be. A trusted author/publisher friend to a multi-national distribution channel. Our community has grown, IS growing, and been a little loud and boisterous about even our smallest successes. Nothing attracts sharks more than blood in the water. 

I've run into more wolves in sheep's clothing in this industry than I'd care to count. Personally, I find the people that are super-duper helpful with no clear reason of how it benefits them are usually the first to take a well-aimed stab at your back. And we authors are suckers for flattery, especially when it comes to our writing. I'm seeing more and more "optioned by X studio" in indie book product descriptions etc. and it makes me really wonder how many of these "movie deals" are really shady dealings that will burn the author should the book go big? It's almost like we're in the gold rush and everyone's rushing to stake a claim on as many mines (authors) as they can.

I have seen businesses fail from the best of intentions. I recently extricated myself from one as gracefully as I could. Silence is the worst reaction as it speaks volumes. And as we all grow as authors, publishers, cover artists, editors, or even marketers, we're all going to face a time when we'd rather not face the music. Even when it's just missing a deadline, these situations do happen in any business to varying degrees. Hopefully, those of us outraged today will remember that when we are the ones who don't want to deal with our mistakes, whatever they might be, and desire to just hide under the covers of silence. 

I hope Ridan and its leaders find courage quickly to give answers to their authors, it's the very least they deserve.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Well, we know she was just on a panel recently, and both Michael and Robin are scheduled to be on a panel at the New York Comic Con on October 14th. Maybe an in-person question would be harder to ignore.

http://nycc12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/sessions/sessiondetails.cfm?ScheduledSessionID=1BA0C9


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

I just hope this works out as soon as possible for everyone involved. The writers need everything they're owed and maybe Robin needs to cut back on some of these responsibilities to focus on other things. I feel bad for everyone caught up in this.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Robin was at one time very boastful of the contract terms for Ridan authors. I think it included a no questions asked reversion of rights with 30 days written notice. If she's ignoring those letters, for example, and continuing to suck up royalties on those books, I think it might meet the narrower, technical definition.


The matter becomes civil when a contract is involved, though. Criminal intent would be very, very difficult to prove in such a case, for all someone on the accused end would have to say would be, "I intended to pay. There was simply no money," or whatever the case may be. The court would most likely side with the damaged party, but it wouldn't be criminal.

Besides, I doubt anyone is worried about criminal charges, anyway; if the authors get their rights back and their payments due, they'd be happy (chipper, even) to just head on over to KDP and relaunch their books.



shelleyo1 said:


> Well, we know she was just on a panel recently, and both Michael and Robin are scheduled to be on a panel at the New York Comic Con on October 14th. Maybe an in-person question would be harder to ignore.
> 
> http://nycc12.mapyourshow.com/5_0/sessions/sessiondetails.cfm?ScheduledSessionID=1BA0C9


I heard a lot of people were going up to White Plains for the NINC conference, weren't they? Perhaps someone who lives in the area could drop by the island to see if they could get some answers in person. It doesn't have to be an army, though. Just a person or two (preferably at least one of those affected).


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> That might have been an acceptable answer a year ago. Let's take some basic facts collected from Ann Crispin's announcement and Nathan Lowell's blog (yes, these are two people I'm prepared to take at their word).
> 
> 1) Ann's first Starbridge book came out in December. 10 months ago. She's never been paid any royalties. (There are five books out now)
> 2) Ridan isn't communicating, and this has been a problem for at least a year. They also aren't executing on customer orders - again, a long-term problem.
> ...


I would say that everything you said is entirely consistent with my thought that "maybe Robin needs to cut back on some of these responsibilities to focus on other things." If she's doing all of the above, then she probably needs to settle up with her authors and move on to other activities.

I did not make the "victim of their own success and trying to catch up argument." Sorry if that wasn't clear.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Not accusing you - sorry if it was a poor summary of your words .
> 
> I just don't buy that too much work and not enough prioritization is the root of the problem. It might have started there - but then, yes, they should have hired help or shut down Ridan. That neither has happened in over a year has created a much different, much more ugly problem. They've tarnished writer brands, infuriated readers (and perhaps chased the less loyal away), dramatically impacted writer revenue streams. I don't know how you settle that up .


And to be clear since you're responding to me again (Hello! Nice to talk to you again, Deb. ), I didn't say that it was a problem of "too much work and not enough prioritization." I can't say what did or didn't happen, so I'll just repeat what I did say since I don't want what I'm saying to get muddled or confused:

I just hope this works out as soon as possible for everyone involved. The writers need everything they're owed and maybe Robin needs to cut back on some of these responsibilities to focus on other things. I feel bad for everyone caught up in this.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MosesSiregarIII said:


> ... Robin needs to cut back on some of these responsibilities to focus on other things.


I have a few suggestions.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Wow. I think here on KB we all feel betrayed because we feel it was one of our own doing the betrayal. The lack of communication to their authors and the alledged holdout on paying royalties...hurts.

They have phone numbers listed at the bottom of their publishing page, and I found a VA address, but I think they must be an LLC. Most small publishers are.

I tried to run a company search through http://www.hoovers.com (a division of D & B), but it said their server was down. If you look at the company history it should tell you where they are incorporated or LLC'd, or even if they are a DBA.

Also, a librarian at the research desk of a library should be able to pull it up quickly.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Darned internet . I'm not sure where we're crossing wires here, Moses, but I suspect we are not very far apart on this .
> 
> Without quoting anything you've said, let me try to be clear - I think the time for excuses for Robin ran out a long time ago. It seems pretty clear this isn't a new set of problems - they've just suddenly become very public.


More than anything, I hope to see the authors get what they're owed, whatever that may be. I don't have any answers, though. It seems like an unfortunate situation all around. Maybe the situation going public will lead to some positive action from Ridan. Do the right thing, Robin!


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Wow. I think here on KB we all feel betrayed because we feel it was one of our own doing the betrayal. People we feel/felt a connection to. The lack of communication to their authors and the alledged holdout on paying royalties...hurts.


I think that is the reason for the very strong reaction.



modwitch said:


> Darned internet . I'm not sure where we're crossing wires here, Moses, but I suspect we are not very far apart on this .
> 
> Without quoting anything you've said, let me try to be clear - I think the time for excuses for Robin ran out a long time ago. It seems pretty clear this isn't a new set of problems - they've just suddenly become very public.


I have to agree.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> The contract negates the "without permission" part because an agreement was entered between the parties. Since royalties were paid (again, assuming since the posts talk about "unpaid since x date"), the criminal intent of fraud is obviously not present. Withholding royalties later is a civil matter with civil recourses (court, lawyers, damages or settlement). ...
> 
> Best thing for the authors would be to bind together for a class action suit. You can fight more effectively as a group, and as a group, the unit can usually get a better attorney or team of attorneys.


Bernard Madoff, who took other people's money with their permission (as part of an agreement between the parties) and credited them returns regularly - that they could have and sometimes did withdraw until the scam collapsed - is in prison as a criminal. And Bruce Friedman, ditto, died in a prison in France pending extradition to the United States on criminal charges. The "criminal intent of fraud" was obviously present, and may be in this case as well. Breach of contract, fraud, theft ... call it what you will. If a prosecutor decides to file criminal charges, it's a criminal case.

I don't think a class action would be necessary in a case like this. The authors could band together as named plaintiffs and sue without the need for a judge to certify a class.


----------



## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

It seems criminal to me if Ann signed a contract that stated royalties of a certain amount would be paid on sales and almost a year later, with documented sales, no royalties have been paid. That she's been battling cancer on top of this is heart-breaking and Ridan's behavior shocking. There's no excuse for it. 

I wonder how long Ann has to wait before she can put her new books up herself? If there is a simple 30 day reversion clause, does that go into effect from date of sending the letter? Or does the fact that Ridan hasn't bothered to pick up the letter mean the clock hasn't started yet? Maybe an email will suffice? She should be able to put all of her books up, and still get back royalties due, somehow....not sure, but that's what I'd like to see happen.

It's sad and disheartening to see hard-working authors scammed like this. I don't care how overwhelmed someone is, or whatever personal problems someone at Ridan is going through....I'd say Ann's cancer trumps that.  

Also, as a small business owner, you just can't ever do something like this. You don't pay yourself a salary before paying expenses, you just don't. Owner salaries come out of profits after expenses are paid....not at the expense of royalties due to authors.

Ridan needs to stand up, address this, and make it right, ASAP.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

PamelaKelley said:


> ...snip...
> 
> I wonder how long Ann has to wait before she can put her new books up herself? If there is a simple 30 day reversion clause, does that go into effect from date of sending the letter? Or does the fact that Ridan hasn't bothered to pick up the letter mean the clock hasn't started yet? Maybe an email will suffice? She should be able to put all of her books up, and still get back royalties due, somehow....not sure, but that's what I'd like to see happen.
> 
> ...snip...


I believe Ann and I have similar contracts. If so, Ann's 30-day notice obligation expired on October 4th (I think she notified them on September 4th). According to the way I read the contract (I am not a lawyer), her rights reverted as of yesterday according to the contract terms. The contract only requires notification in writing. Since Ann has made a good faith effort to comply by sending two certified letters to the company's official address, their lack of response is irrelevant. Something called the "mailbox rule" may apply in that notice was given on the day the letter was mailed in as much as the post office acts as agent. This generally applies to contract acceptance and I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to apply in the case of contract terminations as well. The contracts must comply with the laws in the state of Virginia so maybe there's some exception there that I don't know about.

In theory she can put them up now.

In practice, she needs clean edits and new cover art - at least - and there'll be issues with Amazon if the Ridan editions are still on sale.

Did I mention that I am not a lawyer?


----------



## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

I knew Robin Sullivan a little, back when we were hanging out on Absolute Write. I haven't had any contact with her for well over a year, so I've no idea what has led to this current mess.

Whatever the reason, the situation is indefensible. I know one author caught up in this mess and it's a disgrace. The treatment of Ann Crispin in particular is despicable.

I can only hope that the authors get their rights back (and get paid), as soon as possible.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

If you contact Amazon et al. with the contracts and documentation, they can and HAVE reverted rights back to authors from similar situations. I had to do this for my book for my international rights (and it was no big thing).

You publish the books, and contact them to let them know that the other listing is no longer authorized to be sold, that you've given the publisher notice, etc. etc. They will email you something to the effect of "We noticed that you have published a book similar to XYZ. If you are the copyright holder, do nothing. If you are not the copyright holder you are advised to take it down, etc."

They rely heavily on the author's name. If your name matches the book published on your bank account and other stuff you are submitting to them, they don't have a big problem with reverting rights. Where you will run into difficulty is getting the other listing taken down. THAT can take some time.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> Bernard Madoff, who took other people's money with their permission (as part of an agreement between the parties) and credited them returns regularly - that they could have and sometimes did withdraw until the scam collapsed - is in prison as a criminal. And Bruce Friedman, ditto, died in a prison in France pending extradition to the United States on criminal charges. The "criminal intent of fraud" was obviously present, and may be in this case as well. Breach of contract, fraud, theft ... call it what you will. If a prosecutor decides to file criminal charges, it's a criminal case.
> 
> I don't think a class action would be necessary in a case like this. The authors could band together as named plaintiffs and sue without the need for a judge to certify a class.


This is not a Ponzi scheme.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

BrianKittrell said:


> The matter becomes civil when a contract is involved, though. Criminal intent would be very, very difficult to prove in such a case, for all someone on the accused end would have to say would be, "I intended to pay. There was simply no money," or whatever the case may be. The court would most likely side with the damaged party, but it wouldn't be criminal.
> 
> Besides, I doubt anyone is worried about criminal charges, anyway; if the authors get their rights back and their payments due, they'd be happy (chipper, even) to just head on over to KDP and relaunch their books.
> 
> I heard a lot of people were going up to White Plains for the NINC conference, weren't they? Perhaps someone who lives in the area could drop by the island to see if they could get some answers in person. It doesn't have to be an army, though. Just a person or two (preferably at least one of those affected).


You're correct, of course -- it only FEELS like theft when the party involved is sitting on enough royalties to send our high school senior to college for a year (in the dorm! a consummation devoutly to be wished! ) and the unreturned edits for a book that was supposed to be out several months ago THIS time around.

This is strictly limited to what I know.

I've been trying to keep my fat mouth closed about it but yesterday, learning about Ann... that was the proverbial Straw.

Like the Beloved Spouzal Unit (tm) *waves hello to the beard* I am not a lawyer. Unlike him, I did attend law school for a time.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Nathan Lowell said:


> I believe Ann and I have similar contracts. If so, Ann's 30-day notice obligation expired on October 4th (I think she notified them on September 4th). According to the way I read the contract (I am not a lawyer), her rights reverted as of yesterday according to the contract terms. The contract only requires notification in writing. Since Ann has made a good faith effort to comply by sending two certified letters to the company's official address, their lack of response is irrelevant. Something called the "mailbox rule" may apply in that notice was given on the day the letter was mailed in as much as the post office acts as agent. This generally applies to contract acceptance and I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to apply in the case of contract terminations as well. The contracts must comply with the laws in the state of Virginia so maybe there's some exception there that I don't know about.
> 
> In theory she can put them up now.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry that you're caught up in this as well, Nathan.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Kay,

I continue to be amazed by Nathan's calm and restraint in this situation, for which I admire him greatly. I am, however, delighted to see someone in the Lowell household breathing fire over this travesty.


----------



## MegSilver (Feb 26, 2012)

In the meantime, is there anything we can do to help Ann? All the moral outrage doesn't do much to reduce her stress or get new ebook files made.


----------



## John Twipnook (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm shocked. I learned much about the book business from Robin's posts on KB, and her blog too. Ridan must give their authors what is due to them immediately. Esp Ann, poor lady.


----------



## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

Ridan is NADIR spelled backward!


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Kay Lowell said:


> You're correct, of course -- it only FEELS like theft when the party involved is sitting on enough royalties to send our high school senior to college for a year (in the dorm! a consummation devoutly to be wished! ) and the unreturned edits for a book that was supposed to be out several months ago THIS time around.
> 
> This is strictly limited to what I know.
> 
> ...


I know exactly how you feel. It doesn't have to be criminal to be 100% wrong, though. If everything said here is true, it's so absolutely wrong that it makes my head spin.


----------



## cdvsmx5 (May 23, 2012)

CB Edwards said:


> Ridan is NADIR spelled backward!


Are you suggesting this was all planned?


----------



## fallswriter (Sep 11, 2012)

MegSilver said:


> In the meantime, is there anything we can do to help Ann? All the moral outrage doesn't do much to reduce her stress or get new ebook files made.


As a newbie here, I didn't want to do more than just observe the situation. However, I've been wondering the same question that MegSilver asked. Are all of Ann's books through Ridan, or are there books from which if we did a mass buy she would receive the money? It would be great to find a way that directly counters the effects of Ridan.

If Ann can take her books back and release them on her own under new covers and such, the kb community (even newbies like me) could help make sure she gets help doing so without any financial stress. Then we can all buy and help promote.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> I continue to be amazed by Nathan's calm and restraint in this situation, for which I admire him greatly. I am, however, delighted to see someone in the Lowell household breathing fire over this travesty.


Anger clouds judgement and it's a luxury I can ill afford.

Add the reality that desperate people take desperate actions. I don't want a desperate response ... I want a calm and reasoned one. Most of what _needs _to happen could happen in an hour.

That it hasn't is troubling.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> This is not a Ponzi scheme.
> [/quote
> 
> Of course not. But the two cases both match the words you used to define a case that would be civil, not criminal.
> ...


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

> Of course not. But the two cases both match the words you used to define a case that would be civil, not criminal.
> 
> It's entirely possible that a prosecutor could file criminal charges of theft, fraud or embezzlement against a business person who kept money that did not belong to him or her, even with the existence of a contract or any other kind of agreement.
> 
> ...


Right, but the problem is the evidence, of which there is very little at this point. The money could (and I really hope this is the case so the affected authors have a chance to get paid) be sitting there in the account, just not disbursed.

At this time, I'm going to send the following email to Ridan. Maybe if enough voices join together, they may see the letters, may go ahead and pay the writers, and let them get on with their lives. I don't think hostility will really help, but if you want to send a note, I certainly won't be telling you what to say. I will say: don't get yourselves in trouble, and always act professional.

Dear Robin and Ridan Publishing,

I've heard of some author friends having trouble getting their royalty payments of late. Please, let them have their money and rights, and let them get on with their careers as soon as possible. If no one else has, I'm begging you. Please, do this. Make it right with them.

- Brian


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

You might also add: 'and save at least a little of the reputation you spent so long building.'

I don't understand how they are willing to see their name and reputation go down in flames like this.


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

I've also been extremely impressed with your measured handling of this, Nathan. When they finally released your book, I assumed that this silliness was over. To hear that it's still going on, and may have even gotten worse due to Robin spending all of her time on the conference circuit and continuing to refuse to outsource editing/covers/etc. to meet timely book releases, is just maddening.

You guys each deserve better than this, and I hope Robin makes this right financially. There's no righting the last year of treatment, but coming clean on royalties and responsiveness is the least Ridan can do.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

cdvsmx5 said:


> Are you suggesting this was all planned?


Yes, it was planned. Robin talked about it several times on numerous web interviews. Ridan was supposed to be the opposite of Nadir. Seems she doesn't know what "opposite" means.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but since Nathan is here, I was wondering: have you tried to call Ridan's number? If so, they obviously didn't answer, but is it a working number or.. ?

(Not asked with any snark. Just haven't noticed anyone mention of anyone calling them.)


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> If you contact Amazon et al. with the contracts and documentation, they can and HAVE reverted rights back to authors from similar situations. I had to do this for my book for my international rights (and it was no big thing).
> 
> You publish the books, and contact them to let them know that the other listing is no longer authorized to be sold, that you've given the publisher notice, etc. etc. They will email you something to the effect of "We noticed that you have published a book similar to XYZ. If you are the copyright holder, do nothing. If you are not the copyright holder you are advised to take it down, etc."
> 
> They rely heavily on the author's name. If your name matches the book published on your bank account and other stuff you are submitting to them, they don't have a big problem with reverting rights. Where you will run into difficulty is getting the other listing taken down. THAT can take some time.


This is an interesting point. I'd be giving it consideration and possibly talking to an attorney.


----------



## IndianaJim (May 10, 2011)

Stuff happens when the entire internet hangs over your head.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Apparently Robin Sullivan contacted Ann Crispin this morning.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/ann.crispin.5/posts/10152181382795440
> 
> So far I haven't heard that she's contacted any of the other affected authors, but maybe she's getting to that.


Maybe the email(s) had some effect this morning? Maybe it was enough to tip the balance?


----------



## Guest (Oct 6, 2012)

This has become a lengthy discussion.
Since I have not read the whole thing, I apologize for I repeat what has already been said.

A major problem is this: we are indies trying to do business on the web. We have already placed ourselves in a dangerous position.

For example, in the traditional publishing world, you NEGOTIATE a contract.
Have you negotiated the terms of service (contract) with Facebook? Have you tried to?
Ditto Kindle, Apple, Nook, etc.

A crucial part of a publishing contract is making sure that the publisher separates your royalties from the publisher's operating funds. Your royalty funds are held "in trust" and not used for conference expenses, promoting other books, the Christmas office party, etc.

But in the rush to be published, we accept any terms of service (contract) thrown at us because we are powerless to NEGOTIATE. Terms of service? Take 'em or leave 'em.

Do the authors at Ridan have a contract provision that Ridan must separte the royalties and hold them in trust?


----------



## Rex Jameson (Mar 8, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Apparently Robin Sullivan contacted Ann Crispin this morning.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/ann.crispin.5/posts/10152181382795440
> 
> So far I haven't heard that she's contacted any of the other affected authors, but maybe she's getting to that.


It's a start. A late start is better than no start, I guess.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but since Nathan is here, I was wondering: have you tried to call Ridan's number? If so, they obviously didn't answer, but is it a working number or.. ?
> 
> (Not asked with any snark. Just haven't noticed anyone mention of anyone calling them.)


I have not tried to call. Voice calls are problematic for me. I want words that I can refer back to later to make sure I remember them correctly.

I've sent email, worked with the Ridan Authors Facebook group (closed group), and sent certified and priority mail. The post office tells me the certified mail was not delivered and is awaiting pickup at the post office. They also tell me the priority mail was delivered yesterday.


----------



## WillemThomas (Dec 9, 2010)

genevieveaclark said:


> Apparently Robin Sullivan contacted Ann Crispin this morning.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/ann.crispin.5/posts/10152181382795440


Can someone copy/paste what was posted into this thread? Can't see it without a Facebook account which I don't have (gasp!) - nor will I ever.

Thanks.

Willem Thomas


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

BrianKittrell said:


> Right, but the problem is the evidence, of which there is very little at this point. The money could (and I really hope this is the case so the affected authors have a chance to get paid) be sitting there in the account, just not disbursed.


I'm sure we both hope everyone gets paid. The only reason I entered this discussion was because I thought your post said it couldn't become a criminal case. I said that it could. Again, I'm sure everyone hopes that it doesn't.


----------



## StephenEngland (Nov 2, 2011)

Sorry, I just don't see the usefulness of small publishers in today's publishing world(unless you're looking at collaborative efforts such as anthologies). They're a middleman in a business that no longer requires one. Stories like this make the situation all the more upsetting.


----------



## Tara Li (Oct 6, 2012)

Not putting down Nathan or any of the other authors, but Ridan has *two* Major Authors in their stable - Ann Crispin, and Joe Haldeman.  Anyone heard any peeps from Joe Haldeman about The Forever War?


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> Ah, yes, sorry. Here you go:
> 
> "Update on yesterday's post: I got a phone call from Robin Sullivan of Ridan about an hour ago. We spoke cordially, and are attempting to work things out regarding the reversion and other aspects of my StarBridge books. I'll keep you posted regarding progress. Thank you to everyone who shared my original post or offered help, particularly to Jim Hines. Thanks, Jim!"


Yeah, but what about the royalties due  Is the check in the mail?

Because these are ebooks, and payment is received over the internet, could this be considered wire fraud? Heavy penalties for that.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

genevieveaclark said:


> I think that publishing skills are quite distinct from writing skills, and it stands to reason that not every writer will be a good publisher. I think there will be a continued need for people who can provide those services in the current market. I don't think there are many who do a good job, though, which... Yeah. Maybe that will change as the market continues to evolve.


I don't know about that Genevieve. What are these publishing skills? Hiring an editor and cover artist doesn't take a lot of skill or having someone format your novel. Uploading it is pretty easy.

I'm afraid that I agree with Stephen. If the publisher doesn't bring something to the table such as being able to get your print books into bookstores, I don't see much need for them. I have worked with small publishers including some with good reputations and never felt that I got anything out of it that I couldn't have done myself.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

StephenEngland said:


> Sorry, I just don't see the usefulness of small publishers in today's publishing world(unless you're looking at collaborative efforts such as anthologies). They're a middleman in a business that no longer requires one. Stories like this make the situation all the more upsetting.


Personally, I think publishing coalitions are the wave of the future. But that's just because I like riding the waves. 

For small publishers to succeed in the future, imo, they will need to be smarter about the market than the average author. Stalking the new releases from a few small publishers tells me that, sadly, not all small publishers _are _ smarter. With its strong stable of authors coupled with Robin's marketing savvy, Ridan could have -- should have -- been one of those smart publishers that could bring in more sales than the authors could get on their own (due to an author's lack of name recognition, inclination to learn the market, and/or time or motivation to promote, etc.). The list of viable _smart_ publishers seems to be shrinking rather than growing...


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think publishing coalitions are the wave of the future. But that's just because I like riding the waves.
> 
> For small publishers to succeed in the future, imo, they will need to be smarter about the market than the average author. Stalking the new releases from a few small publishers tells me that, sadly, not all small publishers _are _ smarter. With its strong stable of authors coupled with Robin's marketing savvy, Ridan could have -- should have -- been one of those smart publishers that could bring in more sales than the authors could get on their own (due to an author's lack of name recognition, inclination to learn the market, and/or time or motivation to promote, etc.). The list of viable _smart_ publishers seems to be shrinking rather than growing...


My feelings exactly. It's not that I don't LIKE the idea of a small publisher that can do more than I can, but they are hard to find. There are a few. I'd say Samhain, for example, but... they are sadly an exception.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

modwitch said:


> I'd say we'll have a very good idea within a couple of days. As of Oct 4, Ridan no longer had authorization to sell Ann Crispin's Starbridge books. The Ridan versions are still up for sale on Amazon and the Ridan website:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/StarBridge-Starbridge-Series-ebook/dp/B006LSCOHW/
> http://www.ridanpublishing.com/starbridge.html
> ...


^ This.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think publishing coalitions are the wave of the future. But that's just because I like riding the waves.
> 
> With its strong stable of authors coupled with Robin's marketing savvy, Ridan could have -- should have -- been one of those smart publishers that could bring in more sales than the authors could get on their own (due to an author's lack of name recognition, inclination to learn the market, and/or time or motivation to promote, etc.).


If the stats she used to post here were accurate, and I haven't seen a reason to suspect they weren't, Ridan _was_ - not could have been or should have been, but _was_ - a _very_ successful publisher.

That's why this story is so weird. There was _money_ happening.


----------



## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Phoenix Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think publishing coalitions are the wave of the future. But that's just because I like riding the waves.
> 
> For small publishers to succeed in the future, imo, they will need to be smarter about the market than the average author. Stalking the new releases from a few small publishers tells me that, sadly, not all small publishers _are _ smarter. With its strong stable of authors coupled with Robin's marketing savvy, Ridan could have -- should have -- been one of those smart publishers that could bring in more sales than the authors could get on their own (due to an author's lack of name recognition, inclination to learn the market, and/or time or motivation to promote, etc.). The list of viable _smart_ publishers seems to be shrinking rather than growing...


I think another "safer" coalition is what I'm seeing from my "other" job. I think by and large there are more authors who can handle the publishing side of things, including control of their own prices and royalties, that are banding together under marketing umbrellas. I'm part of one called the Indie Chicks Cafe started by Cheryl Shireman. Another group, Boomers and Books, is joining The-Cheap in the digital magazine we're developing to cross promote, but that is a site of authors who know they appeal to a certain reader, so they are pooling resources to maximize their efforts.

I hesitate to encourage small presses just because I personally had a lackluster experience with one and this current situation with Ridan isn't going to be a unique little butterfly, I don't think. Shoot, even the "BIG" publishers screw up contract fulfillment in regards to royalties and *cough* not hiring subsidy companies as "third party" distributors. Over and over again the problem is signal strength of your voice, as a little indie author it's pretty small. But when we start working together to run THE 100 KINDLE GIVEAWAY (okay that hasn't happened yet, but could you imagine?) or coming up with an umbrella term for our books, like an imprint would, and then calling up that 1-800 number in the spare advertising of the airport to promote a specific site with all of our books on it, then we start challenging the status quo of what we idealize a "publisher" should do for us and our books.

But this takes organization. This takes commitment from authors. It's not easy to trust a group of people you only know virtually when it's time to pay the bills. But I think more "author" organizations that require dues and have simple by-laws as professional organizations are a future that better serves our community, at least.


----------



## 41413 (Apr 4, 2011)

modwitch said:


> So using some very conservative estimates... 66,000 books sold? $225,000 in royalties paid to the publisher? And that's one book, on one site.


 

Holy gnocchi.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeeaah. Lots of money. 

#justsayin


----------



## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

cdvsmx5 said:


> Are you suggesting this was all planned?


Was it planned from the beginning to bilk people? I have no idea. I just noticed the spelling is all.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

CB Edwards said:


> Was it planned from the beginning to bilk people? I have no idea. I just noticed the spelling is all.


No, it wasn't planned from the beginning to bilk people. She just didn't have the greatest grasp of the meaning of the word nadir.

Ridan, I have no doubt, was founded to be a successful company, which it became. All this speculation about what was _planned_ and whether or not this word or that is right for what's happening just serves to take the focus off what's important here:

1. Ridan is selling books and collecting royalties on books they do not have the right to sell. 
2. Ridan has failed to pay royalties to at least one author for _the entire year._ They have been collecting and keeping money that does not belong to them.
3. Ridan has delayed publication on more than one author, often for several months, doing hard-to-measure damage to those writers' careers. 
4. Ridan has published works that were not professionally edited. Probably a minor point compared to the rest, but I understand this is an issue that has brought complaints.

Whether you want to label it one thing or another doesn't matter. The reasons why these things happened don't even matter, and aren't really worth speculating about. These issues need to be fixed as soon as possible, period, and I hope some pressure is brought to bear on Ridan until they are. A phone call is a beginning, but it's still just words. The proof will be in the pudding, as my mother liked to say.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

How many Ridan authors remain? Nathan is gone, Ann is gone, are they others jumping ship?


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Lots of money. Let's just take one book (Forever War) on one site (amazon.com). Released last August. By the end of Sept, it was sub-200 in the sales ranks and stayed there through November. (Ah, the power of a classic written by a huge name!) Follow that with six more months sub-500 and the last four sub-1000. On a $4.95 book.
> 
> So using some very conservative estimates... 66,000 books sold? $225,000 in royalties paid to the publisher? And that's one book, on one site.


Hence my italics.



shelleyo1 said:


> 1. Ridan is selling books and collecting royalties on books they do not have the right to sell.
> 2. Ridan has failed to pay royalties to at least one author for _the entire year._ They have been collecting and keeping money that does not belong to them.


And hence my previous comparisons to major cases of _criminal_ theft, fraud and embezzlement.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> And hence my previous comparisons to major cases of _criminal_ theft, fraud and embezzlement.


My point is that as far as our purposes here, whether it's criminal or civil is irrelevant. That's between the slighted authors and their lawyers and Ridan. Arguing over terms and speculating over motivation and such really does nothing but muddy the issue.

I don't care if it's technically criminal or not, since that argument does nothing to further the cause. I care that Ann and the other authors get paid, that Ridan takes their books down and stops collecting royalties on them, and that the writers can move on to self-publish and earn the money they should be.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

shelleyo1 said:


> I don't care if it's technically criminal or not, since that argument does nothing to further the cause.


Brian mentioned that it couldn't be a criminal case. I disagreed. And one of the reason I disagreed was indeed to further the cause. The threat of a criminal prosecution might be a very strong incentive for Ridan to pay Ann and the others, take their books down and stop collecting royalties on them. I think you and I share the same goals and values.

But I have no skin in this game and only commented because I thought Brian's comment was not factual. I'll bow out now.


----------



## P.A. Woodburn (May 22, 2010)

Very sad.


----------



## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

We have instructions not to comment unless we know something about the situation.

I _*KNOW*_ I want hellfire and damnation to rain down on these people unless they do right by Ann and Nathan and any other authors being mistreated, within the next few days.

How did I do, Betsy?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

> hellfire and damnation


Someone called for me? It's Thanksgiving weekend, so my rates triple.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Someone called for me? It's Thanksgiving weekend, so my rates triple.


I bet you have that phrase on Google alerts.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Most of my work comes from referrals these days.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Most of my work comes from referrals these days.


LOL. Protect yourself from Mayhem. Like me. (American commercial, not sure if they show it up there in Canukistan.)


----------



## Guest (Oct 7, 2012)

Has Robin or anyone else from Ridan responded to this thread?  That's the most surprising thing to me.

This whole thing is just crazy.


----------



## TheSFReader (Jan 20, 2011)

I used to recommend Ridan as a great publisher. No more. 
That said, One slightly redeeming point is the contract : One month warning before automatic rights reversion. Now that's one clause worth having, as proved in the current case.


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

Robin has contacted me and the transition is going smoothly so far.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Nathan Lowell said:


> Robin has contacted me and the transition is going smoothly so far.


Check in the mail?


----------



## Janet Michelson (Jun 20, 2012)

Nathan Lowell said:


> Robin has contacted me and the transition is going smoothly so far.


Just say the word and we'll send Krista after them!


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

So yes, I just found this post. And I'll try to shed a bit of light on the situation.


Yes I missed two payments to Ann one Due April 30 (Q1) the other July 31(Q2)
She has since received both of these payments in full
All other Ridan authors had already received their Q1 and Q2 payments, only Ann was in arrears
It was not due to insolvency on Ridan's part...both payments were extremely small

I'm not going to go into details, but I have had some personal tragedies that have been all consuming, and this has meant that many balls have been dropped. I'm extremely sorry for this, and if I could erase what has transpired I would, but I've yet to invent that time machine. Yes I went on vacation (it had been booked in advance and both the airfare and hotels were non-refundable - plus I REALLY needed to get away), but I also got up each morning at 4:00 and worked on Ridan stuff before my husband and son got up).

Anyone who knows me, knows I've been an advocate for authors. From the countless hours I've spent giving free seminars, to thousands of words of helpful advice on my blog (and in forums such as this). I've tried to be generous with my time, and never took a cent. Even when authors have offered to pay me to "advise them" I refused to take a cent because I think that would be crossing a line. I've even converted ebooks for people (again without payment).

I did not start Ridan to get rich, I started it to help authors find an audience, and given the hundreds of thousands of books I've sold I feel proud of that accomplishment. If I wanted to "get rich" I would give the standard 6% - 10% royalty on print and 25% of net on ebooks. But Ridan authors receive 70% - 90% and many of them have indeed "gotten rich" and I'm proud to have played a part in their success. Yes, for a few months a few hundred dollars didn't get to Ann's account (and again I apologize for that), but should that erase all the good the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Ridan authors have received over the years?

Ann not getting her money was not an attempt to steal those few hundred dollars. It was merely a matter of being too overwhelmed with issues in my personal life to do the accounting in a timely manner.

I know it's easy to "hate publishers," and assume we are all out to screw authors. I've done my own amount of publisher bashing in the past, but Ridan really is just one person&#8230;me. (And no Michael is not involved in Ridan so don't drag him into this). I'm human, with real-world problems, and just doing my best to hold everything together&#8230;and yes I recognize that I've come up short. But it has not been for any devious or malicious reasons.
Sometimes I think that the way we react when things "go bad" are more telling then when everything is "going well." So let's talk a moment about that. First off let's consider the fact that my contract allows the author to leave anytime they want. I know of no other publisher that has such terms. My husband has signed three US publishing contracts and not only is he wedded to those companies "for life" he's wedded to them in death as the terms extend for the length of the copyright which is 70 years after his death. One of the biggest problems in publishing today is being "locked in"and having no recourse. I wrote my contract that way so that authors could trade up to a big-six, go their own way through self-publishing, but most importantly to be able to "fire me" if I didn't perform.

Whether with Ridan, or on their own, my goal is still the same&#8230;I want the author to succeed. I can think of no better way to demonstrate this then look at what is happening now that we are parting ways. The easy thing to do is simply pull the books. It takes just a minute to hit "unpublish" but how will that help Ann? It may take her months to find a new cover artist and learn for herself how to do ebook formatting, or pay someone to do it for her. All the while her books are off the market and that hurts both her and her fans.

So this is how I handled things. I asked Ann to create accounts on DTP, Kobo, and PubIt then provide me with login and passwords. I then posted the books for her on those sites and once they became live, I turned mine off. Zero down time for her fans, and she is earning money on purchases right now.

I've given her all the intellectual property that I created on her behalf, including the raw files so she can make adjustments in the future. I'm also allowing her unfettered use of the beautiful covers that Michael created (again at no cost). Usually publishers won't make this available to authors when rights revert (or they may "sell them to the author for $500 - $1,500 per).

But I've not stopped there. I don't want to see the series "partially completed." So I'm also doing (at no cost) the production work on the last two books (including matching covers with the rest of the series for continuity) In fact I've already turned over to her a completed Ancestor's World, and I'm just waiting on a file from her with the correctly edited version of Voices of Chaos. I'm not charging anything for this work for books I'll never see a cent out of. It's just my commitment to helping her transition successfully.

I've spent several hundred hours on these files: Correcting OCR errors, ebook formatting, cover design, marketing copy writing, proofreading and so on. My princely income for all that work? The price of a lunch (Ridan's Share of Q1) and a dinner (Ridan's Share of Q2). I could have held back my intellectual property, or attempted to get Ann to pay for it (actually she wanted to and I refused), but it was my fault that I couldn't get my act together and I'm trying hard not to make Ann pay for it (more than she already has by having the books delayed).

I still stand by my ideals and principals of being an author's advocate. Yes, life has thrown me some curve balls that have hindered what is possible for me to do. I wish these tragedies hadn't fallen on me. I wish that my personal problems, didn't bleed over to other people's lives. But I'm doing the best that I can and while it's easy to point fingers at me and yell thief and berate my unconscionable conduct, I just ask you to consider that I'm a person too, and just doing the best I can to make a bad situation better.

Please feel free to ask questions or clarifications. I've always been an open and honest person and I'm not about to stop that now. Oh&#8230;and thank you for rallying in support of Ann&#8230;and please consider buying one (or more) of her books on Amazon, Kobo, or B&N. After all she is self-published now and getting 100% of the income.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Thank you for making things right, Robin.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I just... there isn't a shovel big enough.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

It took public shaming before you'd even talk to your authors.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There are authors besides Ann who have not been paid. How much time does it take to answer an email from one of your authors? Seconds. And yet, you ignored them. More than one, repeatedly. 

Shameful. And now these half truths and omissions and BS.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Monique said:


> There are authors besides Ann who have not been paid. How much time does it take to answer an email from one of your authors? Seconds. And yet, you ignored them. More than one, repeatedly.
> 
> Shameful. And now these half truths and omissions and BS.


100% agree. We know there are other authors who haven't been paid. We know you've ignored the emails and release dates by other authors. If you were behind, you could have sent an email out to all of your authors. You could have posted on KB that you needed a helper and that you couldn't pay or couldn't pay much. I've done volunteer work helping a couple of publishers with this stuff over the years for the experience. There were plenty of options available to you.

Instead, you waited until Ann publicly called you out and told half truths.

Shame.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Considering Ridan's website mentions how well the StarBridge books were selling in May (sharing the list with the Solar Clipper series, no less), I think perhaps Ann was owed more than a few hundred dollars. If that's truly what's being claimed, it sounds like financial audit time to me. 

And it's shameful that you keep stressing "a few hundred dollars" as if to make the whole thing seem petty. Even if that's all it was, it doesn't matter. 

When owning up to a huge mistake, one should simply own up to it.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, I'm locking this while we discuss in Admin. Back in a bit.

Edited to add: my goal is to reopen the thread; we just need to discuss in Admin first.

Edit #2: Thanks for your patience.

I'm opening the thread again for comments. *Please remember that personal attacks are not allowed on KindleBoards.* And, again, as I said earlier in the thread, please deal with facts and what you know.

I'm counting on people to maintain our reputation as the best forum on the 'Net.

Those of you who PM'd me, I'm holding you to your promises. 

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

The only thing I don't get, is according to Ridan's own web page, they were selling mega ebooks on at least two of the novels to the point where the author's should be getting much, much, more than hundreds of dollars. Something isn't right.
I know of at least one self-published author here that was making in the six figures over a three month period with those kinds of numbers, so, even if the publisher were taking 70%, they should be making at least mid fives.

Audit time.


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

I cannot possibly be the only customer to have a bad experience with Ridan. Back in January, I ordered the Starbridge books directly off their site. If you order off their site, they're supposed to email you with the files the next business day. I never got them. I sent them one or two emails, which got no response, before forgetting about it entirely, for long enough that I could no longer reverse charges through Paypal.

Last month I bought them _again_ through the site. This time I stayed on top of it. I sent Ridan three emails, each one reminding them to send me the files. I then emailed AC Crispin directly, and she told me that she was already in the process of getting her right back from the company, and to reverse charges. So I began the process of doing just that, which means opening a complaint. I placed the order on September 2nd, initiated the complaint on the 19th, and finally, finally, FINALLY got my books on the 25th. I never got even the courtesy of a response to the first purchase.

Nine or ten days later, the whole thing about Crispin not getting paid came to light publicly. But I think people should know that it's also the consumers who aren't getting what they're owed, not without all kinds of badgering.

In her email to me that had my books attached, Ms. Sullivan said, "I'm terribly sorry for the delay in getting these books to you. I've had an emergency that has taken me off line and the person I had to take care of orders in my absence obviously dropped the ball." And ok, that can happen -- but then what the heck happened in January? Has it been one long emergency between then and now, and the same person just kept on dropping the ball? How many other people never got the books they paid for?

Honestly, I've been a small business owner, I have vast sympathy for the problems involved, but this is ridiculous, and frankly there's a lot being claimed here that I simply cannot swallow.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Here's my most immediate concern. Are the A.C. Crispin Starbridge books on Amazon, starting with this one:

http://www.amazon.com/StarBridge-Starbridge-Series-ebook/dp/B009MSQWK8/

entirely hers now? If I buy this book, will she definitely get the 70% royalty? I see two of them have co-authors, in which case she presumably won't get it all. But my question is whether or not there's still a middleman involved. Has Ann posted about this on FB and asked people to buy them?

If so, I intend to buy her books and tweet about buying them. I suggest interested folks do likewise. Ann could use some support.


----------



## Ali Cooper (May 1, 2010)

I'm not going to take sides here because I've not had dealings with Ridan. But I do have a book with a UK small press - small but well known, with longstanding reputation. They bought up an imprint on which I'd had a non-fiction book for many years. Basically, the small press who'd taken over had problems. Because my book had been out since 99 and was no longer earning much - and I was working on my own imprint - I let it go. At one point I think the new (to me) press went silent for 6 months and afterwards it turned out it was a one person operation - at least re the imprint they'd taken over - and this one person had serious family illness problems and the part of the business they were working on fell apart. Please note, they were dealing with print only. The imprint I originally signed with sold thousands of books via specialist shops I couldn't possibly have distributed to myself. I have no idea what the press who took over are currently doing but I think they took on a subject area they have no experience of and this is part of the problem, so I will consider republishing the book myself in e form.

However, the point here is that it is not unusual for small presses to be one person operations. And if that one person has a crisis of some sort, it isn't always possible to find staff at short notice who are able to instantly get up to speed. And I've known others start publishing ventures with the best of intentions - including investing a great deal of money. And I've known them lose the lot. Because publishing others, rather than just yourself, can be extremely complicated and costly.

I do have a concern with online forums generally - and I've seen it happen over a variety of subjects - that people are too ready to jump on and point the finger, without knowing all the facts, or sometimes any at all.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

EllenFisher said:


> Here's my most immediate concern. Are the A.C. Crispin Starbridge books on Amazon, starting with this one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/StarBridge-Starbridge-Series-ebook/dp/B009MSQWK8/
> 
> ...


I wouldn't buy any books until Ann confirms that she *has* gotten the money due to her, the checks *have* been cashed and didn't bounce and that she *is* now in full control and will receive the money directly.

Given the unprofessional way Ridan has and continues to act I think it's the only way to be sure.

IMO, of course.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I wouldn't buy any books until Ann confirms that she *has* gotten the money due to her, the checks *have* been cashed and didn't bounce and that she *is* now in full control and will receive the money directly.


I'm not sure if it matters if she's gotten the money; it seems to me that's a separate issue. She just needs to confirm that she is in fact controlling her KDP and PubIt accounts, and that her password has been changed so no one else has access to her accounts. Once that's the case, I would really like to see her begin earning money.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

EllenFisher said:


> Here's my most immediate concern. Are the A.C. Crispin Starbridge books on Amazon, starting with this one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/StarBridge-Starbridge-Series-ebook/dp/B009MSQWK8/
> 
> ...


I think the change must've taken place -- when this thread started, Ridan was listed as the publisher for that book, but it no longer is.


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

EllenFisher said:


> Here's my most immediate concern. Are the A.C. Crispin Starbridge books on Amazon, starting with this one:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/StarBridge-Starbridge-Series-ebook/dp/B009MSQWK8/
> 
> ...


Yes that, and all the other StarBridge book is one that I've setup for Ann in an account for her. Please do go buy them - no money from those sales are going to me.


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

SherylNantus said:


> I wouldn't buy any books until Ann confirms that she *has* gotten the money due to her, the checks *have* been cashed and didn't bounce and that she *is* now in full control and will receive the money directly.
> 
> Given the unprofessional way Ridan has and continues to act I think it's the only way to be sure.
> 
> IMO, of course.


There weren't checks sent to Ann I paid her directly through PayPal.


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

shelleyo1 said:


> Considering Ridan's website mentions how well the StarBridge books were selling in May (sharing the list with the Solar Clipper series, no less), I think perhaps Ann was owed more than a few hundred dollars. If that's truly what's being claimed, it sounds like financial audit time to me.
> 
> And it's shameful that you keep stressing "a few hundred dollars" as if to make the whole thing seem petty. Even if that's all it was, it doesn't matter.
> 
> When owning up to a huge mistake, one should simply own up to it.


May sales are paid by Amazon in July - that puts those payments in the Q3. I wasn't stressing the few hundred dollars to be petty...just wanted to counter the accusations and assumptions that I was somehow without holding huge sums. You are absolutely right whether it's $5 or $5,000 It is 100% my fault for missing the scheduled payments.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Ali Cooper said:


> ... it isn't always possible to find staff at short notice who are able to instantly get up to speed. And I've known others start publishing ventures with the best of intentions - including investing a great deal of money. And I've known them lose the lot. Because publishing others, rather than just yourself, can be extremely complicated and costly.


Ali, just a few posts above, Krista said she would've helped if she'd known. The Ridan folks used to post here frequently to discuss their business success. They didn't post that they needed help.

And on the previous page you can seen Deb give specifics: Ridan claimed hundreds of thousands of dollars in monthly sales _for one title alone_.

Sorry, but this case is not comparable to the one you cited.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

Also, you don't get sympathy for personal tragedy when it only stops you from dealing with your responsibilities. 

You are trying to make it sound like Ann Crispin's situation was unique. That she's your only author who wasn't happy. Yet Nathan is leaving you too. How many more of your authors are leaving you, Robin? Are they all leaving because they're so happy? Or are they leaving because you ignored them for months and months and months?


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Is there a single Ridan author at this point willing to chime in about Ridan meeting deadlines, paying royalties on time, etc? Not so far, no.

It's clear that Robin lost interest long ago as Michael's career took off. Fine. Just do it in a responsible way. Time to pay out authors, revert all rights, and shut down the publishing company. Immediately.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

If I were the authors, I would insist on an audit.

http://www.ridanpublishing.com/
It says Nathan Lowell sold more than 10,000 Solar Clipper books in May at 4.95 a piece.

70% of that is 3.465 x .70% of that is = 2.4255 x10,000 = Due to author $24,255 just for MAY.

I'm not sure how she can say hundreds of dollars when some basic math on just one month shows tens of thousands owed.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

a reminder that while tough questions may and should certainly be asked, personal attacks are not allowed.  Posts which include personal attacks will be edited or may be removed.

Also, twiharder, I know that you are passionate about this issue, but citing unnamed third parties does not really meet the standard for "facts and what you know" that I've asked for in this thread.  Edited to add:  after discussion in Admin, I've removed the post.  Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks to all,

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Robin, in your first post here, you stated that you are giving her the cover artwork and such, and the raw files for the books, even the ones that hadn't yet been published. That all sounds great, but I thought I had read that those books were supposed to be published months ago anyway, so to my mind, Ann Crispin was losing sales every day those books remained unpublished beyond the date that had originally been set for them. (which, I will admit, I can't recall when that date was, just that it was months ago.) Anyway, to my way of thinking, giving her the covers is the least you can do for delaying the publishing of her books, and thereby, denying her the chance to receive royalties.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> If I were the authors, I would insist on an audit.


That's only going to happen if that option was in the contract the Ridan authors signed.

I'm not sure about Ridan closing down but maybe it's time for a downgrading and less authors being in the fold. It's looking obvious that this is way beyond one person's ability to run and maintain. Fewer authors might be the answer if any of them wish to stay with Ridan.

I wonder how the panel at NYCC will go this weekend, based on what we've seen so far...


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

> I'm not sure how she can say hundreds of dollars when some basic math on just one month shows tens of thousands owed.


If I'm reading correctly, Robin is saying "hundreds of dollars" on A.C. Crispin's books. Nathan's book seem to have been top sellers for Ridan. It's impossible to know how well Ann's books may have been doing. I did find this for Starbridge:

http://bookchart.info/book/125957/StarBridge

If I'm reading this correctly, _Starbridge _has appeared on the iTunes charts 661 times, with a top ranking of #3 in USA sci-fi. _Silent Dances_ also did well, appearing on the iTunes charts 167 times:

http://bookchart.info/book/131920/Silent-Dances


----------



## Nathan Lowell (Dec 11, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> Is there a single Ridan author at this point willing to chime in about Ridan meeting deadlines, paying royalties on time, etc?


I'll say that my royalties appear to be up to date. This has not always been the case, but at the moment, monies owed me are not due until October 31, according to the contractual agreements. I will not speak for other Ridan authors.

It's also a matter of record that my books have been released late. Half Share was three months late, but that was my fault. It took a long time for me to get my head around the changes in that book. Full Share was released in time for BaltiCon 2011. That was expected. Double Share was due in August and did not get published until the following May. I have not announced a delivery date for any other Share book. I have adopted a policy of only announcing a book when it's available. Predictions of future publication dates are problematic.

Yes, I have reasons that I am leaving Ridan. My remedies for those problems involved delivering a 30-day notice to revert my rights--effectively cancelling the license that I granted Ridan to publish my works in ebook and print. That has happened and -- so far -- things are progressing appropriately. I have the files for my ebooks and the required hard copy documentation should arrive shortly.

No, I'm not going to vet those reasons in a public forum.

My hope is that I can get back to publishing my new book, releasing a back list, and getting ready for the re-release of the Golden Age of the Solar Clipper books in time for Christmas.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

SherylNantus said:


> That's only going to happen if that option was in the contract the Ridan authors signed.


Well, that's just not true. There are a lot of ways that could happen, including through negotiation or as discovery in a lawsuit. A contract can be renegotiated after the fact, and just because someone isn't contractually obligated to do something.

If I were a Ridan author, I'd talk to the other authors and would approach Robin with an offer: We'll hire an independent accountant, if she gives him access to the Amazon, Apple, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Smashwords, etc. accounts via temporary password for a week. If she's willing to do that, it's a way of knowing that she's acting in good faith and genuinely wants an amicable, fair resolution to this matter.

If she isn't willing to do that, that may be a signal that matters need to be escalated and someone needs to hire an attorney.

Truthfully, since it doesn't appear that Ridan is incorporated, I would think it's in Robin's best interests to avoid a lawsuit--and given that it sounds like there are hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake in the endeavor for the authors, if she doesn't convince them that she's paid fairly, she's going to be looking at a lawsuit.

The easiest, fairest, way to settle things with authors and keep them from wondering "Where we cheated?" is to pay an accountant a couple of thousand dollars, and for Robin to let that accountant see all the KDP/Apple/PubIt statements directly from the source. It leaves nobody in doubt, allows Robin to pay off any outstanding debts and clear her name and any black cloud from the reputation.

If I were Robin, in fact, I would offer to foot the bill for the accountant of my authors' choice, with the understanding that the accountant answers to the authors, not to me.

But then, if I were Robin, when I started a publishing company, I would have made sure that my processes for paying authors were easy and had redundancies, so that if I were taken out of commission for some personal reason, my authors would still get paid on a regular basis.

What this drives home to me is that you should make decisions about who to publish with not on solely on the basis of character, but on the basis of process. Some questions you should be asking small publishers: "How are royalties calculated? Who sends out the checks/paypals? What if that person is taken out of commission?" Because no matter how good someone's intentions are--and here I speak generally--something is going to go wrong, and if the process isn't in place to take care of business during catastrophes, that one slip can mean that the whole endeavor collapses because there's no way to recover.

Along those lines: I've agreed to give my translator for my German works royalties on the full-length translations. In order to make sure that (a) I had the tools in place to make sure I didn't mess up and (b) she could trust what I have, I set up an online database that tracks all sales. All I have to do is upload the relevant royalty documents, and they're automatically added to the database. She'll be able to login and see sales as soon as I have the royalty reports, download royalty reports as they pertain to her. She'll also have the contractual right to examine the statements directly from the accounts via temporary password, if she's in any doubt. I hope she's not ever in any doubt--but I'm giving her the right so that she knows I'm committed to a process that reports numbers fairly and accurately.

And I'm training an assistant to upload those reports, too, so that if something happens to me, or if I'm just slammed one month, she's not left out in the cold.

That's the absolute minimum I think you should be able to expect from your publisher. It made sense to me to do this to account to ONE person, and I did it because I know that even though my heart is in the right place, bad things happen.

So every author needs to ask their small publisher: What is your plan if the person in charge of accounting is out of commission? If there isn't one, don't sign.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Thank you Courtney. (She is a lawyer BTW.) 

It's always best to resolve matters out of court and judges do take in to consideration attempts to resolve matters before they get to the litigious stage. Asking Robin and having her agree to pay for an independent audit with the findings given directly to the authors involved, would show good faith on her part.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Thank you Courtney. (She is a lawyer BTW.)
> 
> It's always best to resolve matters out of court and judges do take in to consideration attempts to resolve matters before they get to the litigious stage. Asking Robin and having her agree to pay for an independent audit with the findings given directly to the authors involved, would show good faith on her part.


All excellent points.

Thank you Courtney!!!


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Modwitch makes some excellent points.



> I am willing to believe this was well intentioned. But lets talk about the actual impact of what has happened. First, those files still have Ridan links, Ridan text, Ridan copyrighted images in them. They still point people at the Ridan website. Brand mess, much? She needs interior files that point to her website, her mailing list, her brand.
> 
> But far more importantly, Ann is not getting a new publication date, which she would if she re-released the books herself. That means she won't get a new shot at the SF hot new releases list (where she very much belongs). In the new Amazon algorithms, a new release is an indie author's single best way of getting visibility, and by re-releasing her books, Ann would get 7 shots at that. From a marketing perspective, this transfer of books to a new accounts is a very poor idea.


It seem like Ann needs to insist the books be put out of commission and newly released, maybe under new ISBN's.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

Ok, sorry if I got personal, but I had an experience with a crappy publisher once, and I've dealt with cancer before and so when I saw what was happening to Ann Crispin I lost it and it's become a bit of a mission for me to get to the bottom of this and inform writers of what is going on in this situation so no one else falls victim to the same mistreatment. 

The fact remains, Robin claims to have been unable to cope with her personal tragedy, yet if you google her name and podcast, or her name and seminar, or just her name, you'll see that she has given interview after interview, and sat on panels and if you listen to those interviews she doesn't mention anything about her troubles.

Furthermore, I think it's very interesting that the Ridan website hasn't been updated yet. She still has Ann and all her co others as Ridan authors even though that relationship has been terminated. Not in the process of termination. It's over. They are not Ridan authors anymore. 

Nathan, I hope you get the covers to your books the same way Ann got the covers to hers. I saw a post you made where you said you were working with an artist. I hope you get the others in the series too. It seems the only way to get Robin to speak is to bring issues to a public forum. I hope all the ridan authors get resolutions. Not just Ann.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

There is just no way that Ridan will recover from this. She's lost the respect of this writer and reader and she'll never get it back. Word of mouth is the indie's best marketing tool and what I have to say about Ridan, about Robin Sullivan, and about Michael J. Sullivan to people who ask will not inspire sales.


----------



## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Robin, I'm a spin doctor from way back, having done marketing for some very large corporations -- Radio Shack/Tandy Corp, Hewlett-Packard and Motorola to name just a few. We always had a damage control strategy ready to operate under. Concentrate on the positives, acknowledge but minimize the negatives. I get all that. And I get that you are operating under damage control guidelines.

But this forum has a lot of savvy folk like Deb who are going to look past the spin at the underlying issues.



> It may take her months to find a new cover artist and learn for herself how to do ebook formatting, or pay someone to do it for her.


This statement might go over better with the AW crowd. Months? Aside from the fact that a lot of good folk -- professionals all -- are scrambling over each other to help Ann immediately, and for free, do you seriously think anyone on this forum will believe this statement?

About 3 weeks ago I put out an all-call in this forum for a cover artist for 13 covers to be delivered in less than 6 weeks time. Within 3 weeks, I had finals for 5 ebook and audio covers plus title pages, as well as approved designs for 7 more. I expect those finals in the next day or two, and finals in hand for the 13th title, as well as an approved concept for 2 more covers in the same series as that 13th title by Friday. Professional artist, professional covers, working a little faster for us because we have a fast-approaching Audible deadline.

As for ebook formatting? I'm working with 40+ reverted titles. Some of these titles are 120-140K words in length, some are 60K or so. For previously published works, I can do a final cleanup edit and format of the 60K titles in about 2 hours. With pretty interior formatting and chapter and section break graphics. I published out 6 novels in July, 4 in August, 5 in September and will be publishing 8 later this week. I haven't even begun formatting the 8th one yet, but I have no worries it will be ready to go along with the others.

I'll then update our website with all the new releases, put out a professional newsletter about the launches, add in a blog post and launch the 8 books next week.

Lest you think I'm talking a small launch that will barely be noticed, each of our last launches put at least one book into the Top 200 (and a couple into the Top 100) in the Amazon paid store.

We here know that "months" to do all this is a ludicrous claim.



> Usually publishers won't make this available to authors when rights revert (or they may "sell them to the author for $500 - $1,500 per).


We wanted nothing to do with the old editions, including the artwork, which was sub-par in our case anyway. I won't comment on the professional quality of Michael Sullivan's work, but my recommendation to Ann would have been to walk away from those covers at any price.



> First off let's consider the fact that my contract allows the author to leave anytime they want. I know of no other publisher that has such terms. My husband has signed three US publishing contracts and not only is he wedded to those companies "for life" he's wedded to them in death as the terms extend for the length of the copyright which is 70 years after his death. One of the biggest problems in publishing today is being "locked in"and having no recourse.


Few small publishers are offering life + 70. Most of the ones I know are signing works for 2-5 years. Those were the contracted terms for those 40+ rights reverted titles I'm working with from different publishers. A 30-day walk-away clause is indeed generous, but please don't compare it to a Big 6 contract clause, which generally has -- or should have -- protections in place for authors should the publisher not deliver or go out of business.

ETA: 37 of the backlist titles I'm referring to were national bestsellers published by the Big 6 whose rights were reverted many years ago (so not even life + 70 for these titles that have sold 30 million copies in print) then were picked up by a small publisher (the author's agent/publisher actually) with a 5-year clause. When that expired, the author got her ebook rights.



> I've spent several hundred hours on these files: Correcting OCR errors, ebook formatting, cover design, marketing copy writing, proofreading and so on. My princely income for all that work? The price of a lunch (Ridan's Share of Q1) and a dinner (Ridan's Share of Q2). I could have held back my intellectual property, or attempted to get Ann to pay for it...


We had no problem in getting rights reverted for our books from separate publishers for the proofed and edited editions as they appeared in ebook form from those publishers. We received RTF files from one and convertible PDF files from another.

This is the risk small publishers take in doing all the upfront work that you mention. It is a BUSINESS risk. In the case of Ridan, I would say you got off cheaply not being out an advance as well. Those costs you mention are business costs and deductible as business expenses depending on how a business is set up. If Ridan is not set up in a way to take advantage of structured business losses, then that's up to the business owner to correct or absorb.

The income for that work should have been a great deal more had Ridan done more to market the books and derive a profit for them. The work that was done on them was not done out of charity but in the hopes of profit down the line. That risk didn't pan out and now, Robin, you seem to be trying to spin it as "look what I've sacrificed for these books that haven't earned out." Let's be very clear: Ridan is not the victim here. The author is.

Spinning aside, you are trying to resolve the issue with the authors jumping ship, which is commendable, even if some of the efforts seem a bit misguided. Will the authors left in your stable be convinced that the underlying problems that forced a resolution -- missed deadlines, lack of communication, etc -- are now behind you?


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

Steve Silkin said:


> Ali, just a few posts above, Krista said she would've helped if she'd known. The Ridan folks used to post here frequently to discuss their business success. They didn't post that they needed help.
> 
> And on the previous page you can seen Deb give specifics: Ridan claimed hundreds of thousands of dollars in monthly sales _for one title alone_.
> 
> Sorry, but this case is not comparable to the one you cited.


There are no "Ridan folks" there is just me. Michael has NOTHING to do with Ridan...except that I twisted his arm to do covers. Yes when I was able to devote time to the venture, I was very successful for my authors and they have earned (and been paid) for that success. The fact that I've not been posting here, or working on my blog attests to the fact that I've had personal and family crises issues that have consumed 100% of my time. That being said I'm still 100% committed to making my authors self-sufficient and am working to make the transition seamless for them. I think if you talk to them, they will say that while neither of us like that my personal tragedies have bleed over and affected them, that I am addressing the transition to make it good for both them and their fans.


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

MaryMcDonald said:


> Robin, in your first post here, you stated that you are giving her the cover artwork and such, and the raw files for the books, even the ones that hadn't yet been published. That all sounds great, but I thought I had read that those books were supposed to be published months ago anyway, so to my mind, Ann Crispin was losing sales every day those books remained unpublished beyond the date that had originally been set for them. (which, I will admit, I can't recall when that date was, just that it was months ago.) Anyway, to my way of thinking, giving her the covers is the least you can do for delaying the publishing of her books, and thereby, denying her the chance to receive royalties.


Mary, we didn't have a release date for the books. I was putting them out as "quickly as I could." I've built her a complete ebook in all various formats for book #6. The timing and posting of that book is totally out of my control as they are her accounts now...not mine. I was never given the changes for the last book so I couldn't have put it out. As soon as I get it I will turn it she'll have a return copy within 24 hours.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

rsullivan9597 said:


> There are no "Ridan folks" there is just me. Michael has NOTHING to do with Ridan...except that I twisted his arm to do covers. ...


So Ridan never published Michael's books? And his success at Ridan was never discussed on Kindleboards?

If that's the case, then forgive me. I must have misunderstood.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

rsullivan9597 said:


> There are no "Ridan folks" there is just me. Michael has NOTHING to do with Ridan...except that I twisted his arm to do covers. Yes when I was able to devote time to the venture, I was very successful for my authors and they have earned (and been paid) for that success. *The fact that I've not been posting here, or working on my blog attests to the fact that I've had personal and family crises issues that have consumed 100% of my tim*e. That being said I'm still 100% committed to making my authors self-sufficient and am working to make the transition seamless for them. I think if you talk to them, they will say that while neither of us like that my personal tragedies have bleed over and affected them, that I am addressing the transition to make it good for both them and their fans.


100% of your time? Wow. Care to explain how you have no time for your authors but ample time to go to conferences and to give interviews on podcasts and to sit on self publishing panels? If you're committed to your authors success, please explain why so many of them report delays, and being ignored by you for months and months and months. Care to speak to the fact that more than one of your authors told me there is a private facebook group that you run for your authors and you haven't replied to a single message to you in there in months?

Care to answer why your website isn't updated to reflect that Ann and her co authors aren't your author anymore?

ya, didn't think so.


----------



## Twiharder (Oct 6, 2012)

rsullivan9597 said:


> Mary, we didn't have a release date for the books. I was putting them out as "quickly as I could." I've built her a complete ebook in all various formats for book #6. The timing and posting of that book is totally out of my control as they are her accounts now...not mine. I was never given the changes for the last book so I couldn't have put it out. *As soon as I get it I will turn it she'll have a return copy within 24 hours.
> *




Wow. So when it hits the fan you can get moving, after all. Your other authors are very lucky. Perhaps you just want to wait for them to get fed up and ask someone to drop the internet on your head.


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

genevieveaclark said:


> All I'll say at this point is this: everyone suffers personal tragedies. It's no excuse for failing to uphold your responsibilities, and trying to trade on sympathy for those difficulties in this situation is, imo, beneath contempt.


I'm not trying to trade on sympathy. I'm just stating facts that my disappearance from Ridan was not some malicious attempt to cause harm. Was harm caused, of course. Is it my fault, yes. Can I go back and change history, no. All I can do is make sure the authors transition as smoothly as possible.



genevieveaclark said:


> The remedies you have offered so far, Robin, are not really remedies for the authors. It is in fact far simpler to take down Ridan's versions of the books in KDP (two clicks) and send docx or rtf files to the authors, and this would allow them the advantage of beginning anew, with a whole new shot at the HNR list and the algos. It should take a week to get them up and running. Crowd sourcing is amazing. That you insist on a lumbering process whereby they still have Ridan-stamped files and an excuse for things to take forever...I mean. Given that the common sense alternative is so simple, I honestly have to wonder at your motivation for this.


I've given each author their choice, immediate removal or a transfer. If you disagree with their choices, feel free to contact them. For people on kindle boards getting new files up and ready may be trivial. For others it is not so trivial, and the ones that are having me repost their files have been very appreciative of those measures. Before giving Nathan his files I stripped the Ridan name, so all he has to do is post. The timing of his files is beyond my control. [/quote]


----------



## rsullivan9597 (Nov 18, 2009)

genevieveaclark said:


> It appears Robin is responding very selectively so far.


Do you really want me to spend all my time responding to this thread, or is my time better used addressing the problems? I came here to post an update and I've been dragged into a few more responses mainly to let people know that they should go buy Ann's books now because they are on her account. I'm going to leave this thread now...feel free to continue in my absence. At some point I may return with updates, or to answer questions.


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2012)

Has anyone pointed out that the way to prevent a similar future situation would be to insist:

The publishing contract contains an "escrow" clause that would keep your royalties separated from the publisher's operating funds.

This would be like an escrow for real estate deals. If the deal goes sour, the escrow is till intact rather than been used for salaries, production costs, advertising, conference trips, vacations, etc.

And I would suggest a clause that the publisher pay interest on overdue royalty payments.

But in this day of internet contracts (terms of service) instead of NEGOTIATIONS, good luck with all that.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

From Ann's post on Facebook:

"I know some of you were waiting for books 6 and 7 in the StarBridge series. Those books were turned in months ago, edited and ready to go, but they have never been released."

This seems at odds with Robin's previous statement about not having the files. 

Just another inconsistency...


----------



## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

All I wanted to say is that I'm grateful to feel part of a community which looks after its own with such verve and commitment. Congratulations to the KB team who have handled this thread - the most politically tough one I've come across in my relatively short time posting here - with a fine balance of fairness and a sense of duty to Indies in general rather than with a partisan approach.

The content of this thread should do much to strengthen bonds, and confidence, among self-publishers, while serving notice on suppliers that their services will be under regular scrutiny by people who will stand together in bringing them to account.

Joe


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

A key question, as raised by a poster previously, is "intent." So... for those who ordered books from Ridan and received neither goods nor response despite posted timelines and offered contractual terms: Were you charged? In other words, did money change hands? If not, than except for a certain feeling of betrayal, you have legally suffered no harm.

A second key question is - were any of the transactions across State boundaries?

18 U.S.C. 1342 is pretty specific on the elements that constitute a violation.

If parties believe the elements have been fulfilled, and that they have suffered harm, they should consider (and it is entirely their business) consultation with an attorney and/or filing a complaint with the appropriate authorities.

Beyond that, and this is only a suggestion from a reader who has been following this discussion here and on multiple other fora... ya'll might want to ask yourselves what your objectives in the discussion _are_. Castigation? Fact finding (for what purpose)? Etc. Some of the questions that are being asked simply _cannot be answered in an open setting like this without having legal implications_.

Having said all that: I share the outrage being expressed here, and have been appalled with Ridan/RS for a couple years. So much so that I have refused to purchase books that they publish - including the later parts of the Star Bridge series (with one exception, Mr. Lowell's Double Share - and you can search for a rather lengthy post that I made on his site detailing the poor editing that document suffered if you're interested.) It would be nice to hear at least one decent explanation of what happened, that is supported by the facts as posted by first parties on this board and others, and which is not self serving or blatantly dishonest.

But, then, it would also be nice to meet Santa Clause.

Anyone want to take odds as to which is more likely?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hazcat said:


> A key question, as raised by a poster previously, is "intent." So... for those who ordered books from Ridan and received neither goods nor response despite posted timelines and offered contractual terms: Were you charged? In other words, did money change hands? If not, than except for a certain feeling of betrayal, you have legally suffered no harm.


The authors of the works suffered _substantial_ harm. Their reputations were besmirched because buyers were either ripped off or felt betrayed ,and the author's sales and royalties were affected. If the orders simply weren't fulfilled, they were denied the royalties accruing from the sale (and then Robin has the never to say that Ann was "only owed a few hundred dollars"). How many fans who ordered books and did not receive them will buy from that author again whether the payment went through or not? Do you seriously think it isn't the author who is blamed? In almost every case it is and the author has suffered long-term damage beyond the royalties.

This was a serious breach of trust and the contractual obligations by the publisher. (ETA: As far as I'm concerned, their intent didn't matter. They took on the obligation and were therefore obligated to fulfill the contract. They didn't)

ETA: To answer a question you asked that I snipped, I think a lot of people simply feel impelled to express their outrage that a formerly respected member of what many consider a community has acted so irresponsibly and done such harm to others. I concur. My outrage is such I have mostly felt I should stay out of this discussion because it is difficult to speak moderately.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Hazcat said:


> A key question, as raised by a poster previously, is "intent."


Actually, intent is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what actually happened. That's where the focus needs to stay--what happened and what's being done to fix it. 


> So... for those who ordered books from Ridan and received neither goods nor response despite posted timelines and offered contractual terms: Were you charged? In other words, did money change hands? If not, than except for a certain feeling of betrayal, you have legally suffered no harm.


There's at least one person in this thread who ordered Ann's books from Ridan twice, paid twice, and only got the books (with no refund on the first failed order) after filing a claim with Paypal. This is one person who has spoken up in _writers' forums_. How many others could there be who don't frequent such places? We have no way of knowing. But we know it's happened. I'd say a company taking your money and not providing a product is harm. These are customers who were ignored, in the same way that authors were ignored.

Harm has been done to authors here. The details in this thread demonstrate that pretty clearly.



> Beyond that, and this is only a suggestion from a reader who has been following this discussion here and on multiple other fora... ya'll might want to ask yourselves what your objectives in the discussion _are_. Castigation? Fact finding (for what purpose)? Etc. Some of the questions that are being asked simply _cannot be answered in an open setting like this without having legal implications_.


Whether the questions can or will be answered here isn't the point. The point is simply that _these questions arose because of the publisher's poor practices_, and that yes, harm has been done. I also posit that, because of the self-serving post on the part of the publisher that does little but try to minimize the issues, harm will continue to be done to authors who partner with Ridan in future.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

modwitch said:


> My objective is to try to keep the facts clear for people outside of KB reading this thread and people potentially considering signing with Ridan in the future. I expect this thread will surface on google searches for "Ridan" for some time to come.
> 
> I think what has happened here is a far more serious issue than not paying a few hundred dollars to one author. Damage has been done to author brands, there has been serious lost opportunities for growing their audiences, and readers have been directly impacted by poor customer service. This isn't a small, short-term snafu - it's a publisher falling down on what I see as the major responsibilities of a publisher. I'm glad that a major internet outcry has resulted in a response - and while that weighs on the scale here, I don't think it in any way indicates Ridan is in a good place for continuing to do business as a publisher.


I've been watching this thread for a while; but I haven't commented because it's not something I have inside information about. However, I do have a question. How do we know it's not a short-term snafu? While I agree this is not a small matter, I'm not so sure about the long-term implications to the authors and even to Robin. How do we know that Robin won't suddenly get it together and turn a new leaf? Maybe she will implement processes that will work for her company and minimize future problems? Maybe she will put in a plan that will prepare her for future personal crises? Maybe she will hire staff? I think it's a good idea to support authors who haven't been paid royalties. I'm so behind that, but...I get a bad feeling from some of these posts. It sounds like Robin is trying to correct her mistakes, what more do we want?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> I've been watching this thread for a while; but I haven't commented because it's not something I have inside information about. However, I do have a question. How do we know it's not a short-term snafu? While I agree this is not a small matter, I'm not so sure about the long-term implications to the authors and even to Robin. How do we know that Robin won't suddenly get it together and turn a new leaf? Maybe she will implement processes that will work for her company and minimize future problems? Maybe she will put in a plan that will prepare her for future personal crises? Maybe she will hire staff? I think it's a good idea to support authors who haven't been paid royalties. I'm so behind that, but...I get a bad feeling from some of these posts. It sounds like Robin is trying to correct her mistakes, what more do we want?


Because it has been going on for about a year or more. For a year or more they have been missing deadlines, doing poor editing, not fulfilling orders and missing royalty payments for much of that time.

And do YOU seriously want to turn over your work and your livelihood and trust that someone who has this kind of long-term record has "turned over a new leaf"? I wouldn't advise it.


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

Hazcat said:


> A key question, as raised by a poster previously, is "intent." So... for those who ordered books from Ridan and received neither goods nor response despite posted timelines and offered contractual terms: Were you charged? In other words, did money change hands? If not, than except for a certain feeling of betrayal, you have legally suffered no harm.


I paid twice for those books, and only received them once, and if you had read my post, you'd know that. When you order directly from the Ridan site, they take payment first, and then supposedly email you with the files "the next business day." That did not at any point happen. Before I got the books the _second_ time I ordered them, I had to send the publisher three emails, email the author (who was very pleasant), and file a complaint with Paypal. All of which I have already stated here and elsewhere. With dates. I'm willing to post more details, including Paypal records and emails sent to (and the one email received from) Ridan, should anybody care.

So yes, I have legally suffered harm, since I cannot reverse the charges for that first payment at this point. And as has been pointed out, authors involved have definitely suffered harm from all of this. So I respectfully invite you to stop treating us as if we have done something wrong.



> A second key question is - were any of the transactions across State boundaries?


Since I'm in Washington State, and Ridan is, I believe, somewhere east of here, yes, it did.



> If parties believe the elements have been fulfilled, and that they have suffered harm, they should consider (and it is entirely their business) consultation with an attorney and/or filing a complaint with the appropriate authorities.


Yes, because that's really worth my time and energy and lots of money for $20. *eyeroll*



> Beyond that, and this is only a suggestion from a reader who has been following this discussion here and on multiple other fora... ya'll might want to ask yourselves what your objectives in the discussion _are_. Castigation? Fact finding (for what purpose)? Etc. Some of the questions that are being asked simply _cannot be answered in an open setting like this without having legal implications_.


WTF?

My "objective" is to let people know that Ridan is cheating customers, and that people should not buy direct from their site. "Fact finding" is a totally different process, one that has legal implications on its own. I'm just warning consumers, something that I, as a consumer, have every legal right to do. Other people, presented with all of the information made publicly available, also have every legal right to discuss it. So again, I respectfully invite you to stop treating us as if we have done something wrong.

I'm not looking for or expecting any further response from Ridan than I have already received. I'm not asking Ms. Sullivan any questions.

Seriously, I've seen Hazcat around some of the other discussions of this, and I keep suspecting sockpuppetry.



SunHi Mistwalker said:


> How do we know it's not a short-term snafu?


Define "short-term". Again, I first placed an order with Ridan in January.

Edited to remove phrasing I have been informed is unacceptable. It really bothers me that the kind of circumlocutions that amount to "You can't say that! Stop saying that!" are permitted, but more direct forms are not. Pretty language doesn't make something less rude than direct language.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Why many of us doubt it:

1. It took a number of Internet posts like Jim Hines' and a public shaming to get anything happening now. 
2. Ongoing problems for at least a year. 
3. Podcasts, interviews and panel appearances while ignoring authors and customers
4. Missed payments
5. Missed deadlines
6. Substandard editing of works put out months overdue
7. Her post here demonstrates (at least to me) that only more excuses and half-truths will be coming. 

If her post here had not tried to hold herself up as a paragon of self-sacrifice, some of us might feel differently.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Because it has been going on for about a year or more. For a year or more they have been missing deadlines, doing poor editing, not fulfilling orders and missing royalty payments for much of that time.
> 
> And do YOU seriously want to turn over your work and your livelihood and trust that someone who has this kind of long-term record that they have "turned over a new leaf"? I wouldn't advise it.


This. I know Robin is trying to make things right, but only after public shame got so bad she couldn't ignore it any longer.

I'm sorry, but going months and months ignoring emails, missing publishing deadlines --- for MONTHS --- is a pattern.

If life situations had gotten so bad that no emails could be sent, why are emails being sent to set up things like panel discussions?

The ball was dropped. Over and over. I know Robin is trying to make it right, but in my eyes the best thing would be to admit the time is no longer there for Ridan and to quit the publishing business.


----------



## NoahMullette-Gillman (Jul 29, 2010)

What a horrible situation!


----------



## Debra L Martin (Apr 8, 2010)

Victorine said:


> The ball was dropped. Over and over. I know Robin is trying to make it right, but in my eyes the best thing would be to admit the time is no longer there for Ridan and to quit the publishing business.


I agree with Vicki on this. There has been too much damage done by Robin for Ridan to stay in business.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

SunHi Mistwalker said:


> How do we know that Robin won't suddenly get it together and turn a new leaf? It sounds like Robin is trying to correct her mistakes, what more do we want?


This is absolutely right. Robin has made the correct choice is leaving this thread for now. I mean, she came on, explained herself, and took quick steps to rectify the problem.

Yet that doesn't matter. There is a post on here pointing out that her website hasn't been updated yet to reflect the authors who have left. So what ... one day later it hasn't been updated? PITCHFORKS!

The fact is there is absolutely no action that Robin can take now that will satisfy the internet mob. People want her utter and complete destruction. She shall never have a publishing company again!

It's quite absurd really. Businesses go through ups and downs and can make terrible choices not just once but multiple times over multiple years. Paying royalties or freelancers or even their invoices is a big one.

Yet what is put forward here is the utter destruction of Ridan. It must be closed down immediately. There is no alternate narrative. There is no version where Robin does pay the money, does sort out the problem and then continue on as a worthy business that produces good results.

There are people on here who literally have no concept of mercy or forgiveness ... or even that in business, s**t happens. They cannot see or accept that yes, royalties didn't get paid and after that is fixed, yes, the company will continue to do business.

If businesses shut down when things like this happened, we'd have nearly no businesses at all.

I can understand the anger - Robin is a KB member and a passionate advocate for indie publishing (how I hate that term) and here she is replicating the exact problems of trad publishing. The non-communication, the non-payment and then throw in that the author involved is ill and unfortunately lives in a country with no universal healthcare and it seems so much worse.

But seriously, put down the pitchforks people. You do not get to decide whether her business will continue to run or not. Trial by internet forum is only going to result in one verdict: execution.

She has taken steps to right this problem. Accept it and move on.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> This is absolutely right. Robin has made the correct choice is leaving this thread for now. I mean, she came on, explained herself, and took quick steps to rectify the problem.
> 
> Yet that doesn't matter. There is a post on here pointing out that her website hasn't been updated yet to reflect the authors who have left. So what ... one day later it hasn't been updated? PITCHFORKS!
> 
> ...


QUICK STEPS??! You have GOT to be kidding. This has been going on for_ months_ with her ignoring her obligations and refusing to respond to authors with whom she had legally binding contracts.

No, it is NOT acceptable just to not pay the people you owe or send the products that people have ordered from you because "sh*t happens". When you agree to a contract, you fulfill it and if that means hirinng help, then you do so. There are no pitchforks here, but this is not a matter of something going wrong and someone "quickly" taking step to right the problem. Not in the least. It took month after month and an uproar over a number of sites, including a couple of very influential ones, for her to decide that she should do anything about it.

No one is likely to ask me if they should sign with Ridan but if anything in this thread keeps another author from signing with them, the outrage has been WELL worthwhile.

ETA: Could this be fixed? It could. Is Ridan likely to go out of business? I don't know, but if they can't address the _UNDERLYING CAUSES_ of these problems rather than just stick on a BandAid, it should go out of business. And unless that is proven to have happened, those who know of the history should do everything possible to steer authors away from it.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

modwitch said:


> As others have pointed out, the current situation is the most public, but a quick look at the blog of some of the authors associated with Ridan will show publication delays and customer service problems dating back at least 15 months. So, not a short-term problem. And it took an internet outcry to get a response. Not all of us have the contacts to get Jim Hines riled .
> 
> As for what more would I want if I were an author looking to sign with Ridan? Clear demonstration of tangible changes that have been made to prevent these kinds of problems in the future. A database that easily calculates royalty payments in a timely manner. Outsourcing of major publication steps, like editing, to competent professionals. Existing authors that could assure me their email queries are routinely responded to within 48 hours, whether or not Robin is available. A purchasing system for ebooks on the Ridan site that automatically delivers downloads (I have one on my site - it took about ten minutes to set up). A detailed launch strategy and marketing plan for my books for the first three months. An advance, so that if these things didn't happen in a timely manner, I'd have compensation for the damage to my brand beyond the right to get my books back. Basically, I'd want to see a company capable of preparing and launching my books independent of the availability of Ridan's owner.
> 
> Responding to an internet outcry by patching the most immediate problems is not evidence of any of the above. I'm not saying Ridan couldn't recover and do well in the future - but there is a whole lot of tangible steps that would have to happen for me to believe they were on that track.


So let's play pretend.

Robin comes on and says everything you've described will happen.

Now internet mob, how long shall we give her? Half an hour? A day? Perhaps she gets a week? What is the acceptable time-frame for all this to happen?

The bar of what people will accept is just getting higher and higher. It's not enough to pay the author and get her books all over to her nearly instantly so any sales has 100% of the money going to her. Now there are new standards of "what we as the internet jury decide must happen for you to keep your business".

Yes what happened by clearly bad and took place over a long time. Clearly it wasn't just "someone died and I lost my way for three months". Clearly businesses with a single employee have issues when a problem of a personal nature appears. Great, wonderful, all established and documented and noted and whatever.

But what difference does it make _now_?

Robin does not have to share her businesses plans with KB. She does not have to give some 15-point plan and roadmap to re-establishment. She does not have to answer every inane question put to her.

She would surely be smart enough to realise that there is literally nothing she can say or do that will satisfy the members of a web forum. In fact, anything she does say will be thrown back in her face and petty things like failing to update her website within a day or two is now proof she is a liar/incompetent/etc.

People on here need to give up the business advice and move on from this. KB is great to raise and note and discuss issues like this but there must also be balance. If the standard is "perfect or utter destruction" then what you'll see is people refusing to engage with forums like this.

I mean, why does Smashwords still get to exist, given their multiple problems? Because their problems have been technical rather than moral? Wasn't there an author who lost a big chunk of money because a retailer unilaterally discounted a Smashwords book and that change was price-matched by Amazon? Why wasn't Smashwords dissolved at that point?

Members of the KB forum were responsible for a title on Smashwords purporting how to teach people "How to write like Amanda Hocking" to be removed. A perfectly legal and acceptable title was removed and destroyed because of the mob justice fomented here. It was disgusting and a bad way for this forum to travel. The issue with Ridan and what has gone on there was bad but balance please. Accept that people do not need to end their business because they do not meet some standard that no one in the world meets.

Edit: fixed spelling.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

Actually, I asked the two questions to clarify something - that harm has been done, both to customers and to authors.  (You'll note that I stated I had not purchased books because they were published by Ridan).  That direct financial harm was done needed to be directly drawn out so as to underscore the point for anyone considering dealing with Ridan.  The last series of posts form a beautiful summary of the situation.

R.e. whether it's worth someones time and energy to complain?  Your call, but it's actually only a couple minutes effort to do so.  Just do a search for "United States Postal Inspection Service" and you'll land on a page that walks you through the process.  Will it get your money back?  Probably not.  But it takes about the same amount of time as posting on this board.  And it only requires a few complaints to get the attention of an Inspector.  If the Inspector determines that the case does not fall into their jurisdiction, it gets referred - and because it's a referral, it receives even closer inspection.  So (to me) the question boils down to "vent vs. act."  

From a personal perspective, I couldn't agree more that there have been longstanding problems with Ridan.  While I registered on this board (and Absolute Write) using my standard handle of "hazcat" you'll find my comments on Nathans site under my first name - Sean.  No sock puppet here - and I've been complaining about Ridan in fairly harsh terms since they blew off their second posted deadline for his work a couple years back.  I've actually been encouraging him to leave them for a long time for exactly the reasons that are being brought to light now, with the exception of the missed payments to authors that wasn't known until Mr. Hines' post.

BTW:  "hazcat" is from a hazardous materials term for "hazard categorization," nothing feline.  Much as I like my cats.  It's an internet handle I've been using since the early 90's when you had to understand NCSA Mosaic, Archie, Jughead, etc., to use the internet.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> ETA: Could this be fixed? It could. Is Ridan likely to go out of business? I don't know, but if they can't address the _UNDERLYING CAUSES_ of these problems rather than just stick on a BandAid, it should go out of business. And unless that is proven to have happened, those who know of the history should do everything possible to steer authors away from it.


Ok ... so you seem to know the underlying causes ... what were they? Can you please describe them?

Also, for added points, can you describe how Robin is to provide proof that those underlying causes have been addressed? Should they be posted on KB? On their website? Would you like a 15-point plan described in a PDF and then updated as progress is made?

Should public statements be made or will you only accept scans of certified financial documents?

Surely you can see that the level of proof you are asking for is not so easy to attain. Robin can simply keep doing business, adding new authors, keep on going and then what ... two years from now you'll be able to say "hey, orders are being fulfilled and royalties are paid on time and I, for one, am satisfied that the underlying issues from two years ago have been addressed".

Would that be right? Could you describe the level of proof you expect? Some time-frames too would be nice.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Hazcat said:


> BTW: "hazcat" is from a hazardous materials term for "hazard categorization," nothing feline. *Much as I like my cats. *It's an internet handle I've been using since the early 90's when you had to understand NCSA Mosaic, Archie, Jughead, etc., to use the internet.


Oh, please! Now you expect us to believe that you don't hate cats? I know your type.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> So let's play pretend.
> 
> Robin comes on and says everything you've described will happen.
> 
> ...


Matthew,

No one here is making business decisions for Robin. She's the only one that can do that. We're just asking questions, posting what we know has happened, and airing our thoughts on the matter. We do not decide what happens to Ridan.

If what we say here affects her business, it is because things have happened and this information is now out in the open. How is having more information a bad thing? Authors should be knowledgeable about what they are getting themselves into. If other authors decide to sign with Ridan, shouldn't they know what has happened, so they can make an informed decision?


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

modwitch said:


> As for what more would I want if I were an author looking to sign with Ridan? Clear demonstration of tangible changes that have been made to prevent these kinds of problems in the future. A database that easily calculates royalty payments in a timely manner. Outsourcing of major publication steps, like editing, to competent professionals. Existing authors that could assure me their email queries are routinely responded to within 48 hours, whether or not Robin is available. A purchasing system for ebooks on the Ridan site that automatically delivers downloads (I have one on my site - it took about ten minutes to set up). A detailed launch strategy and marketing plan for my books for the first three months. An advance, so that if these things didn't happen in a timely manner, I'd have compensation for the damage to my brand beyond the right to get my books back. Basically, I'd want to see a company capable of preparing and launching my books independent of the availability of Ridan's owner.
> 
> Responding to an internet outcry by patching the most immediate problems is not evidence of any of the above. I'm not saying Ridan couldn't recover and do well in the future - but there is a whole lot of tangible steps that would have to happen for me to believe they were on that track.


Thank you for this reasonable response. I think this is fair. A matter of fact, I might even implement some of these things for my own business.  Can you PM me the name of the purchasing system you use? I do agree that just rectifying the most immediate issues are not enough to show that Robin has improved her business practices; but who knows what will happen in the future. I really hope that she is able to correct the issues in her business and succeed. I think there is room for redemption and forgiveness if she's willing to do the work long-term.



mathewferguson said:


> If businesses shut down when things like this happened, we'd have nearly no businesses at all.


Yeah, this is true. I've made so many mistakes in my business life and I'm still learning. I'm lucky that no one has demanded that I stop writing because of those mistakes. 




Victorine said:


> This. I know Robin is trying to make things right, but only after public shame got so bad she couldn't ignore it any longer.
> 
> I'm sorry, but going months and months ignoring emails, missing publishing deadlines --- for MONTHS --- is a pattern.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Robin was wrong to ignore people but...I don't think it's fair to demand her business be shut down. If this had been going on for five years...then maybe; but even then there's room to change and improve.



JRTomlin said:


> Because it has been going on for about a year or more. For a year or more they have been missing deadlines, doing poor editing, not fulfilling orders and missing royalty payments for much of that time.
> 
> And do YOU seriously want to turn over your work and your livelihood and trust that someone who has this kind of long-term record has "turned over a new leaf"? I wouldn't advise it.


Please don't make this about me...it's not. My biggest concern is when people take the current situation and try to predict some distant future. We just don't know what the future holds. I don't think people should be punished forever because of some error or wrong they've done. There has got to be room for forgiving people even if they're not even that remorseful. I'm not saying that you have to do business with them. And I'm not saying you should just do business with them like nothing ever happened. I'm just talking about letting go. That's all. While I have no intention of getting a publisher at this moment, I will answer your question. If I saw a change in a person over the long-term (like five plus years) I would do business with them (maybe) even if they did make mistakes in the past. People are flawed like you and me, we've got to give people some room for error. I guess my biggest problem with this thread has been that there doesn't seem to be any room to forgive Robin and let her try again. That really bothers me. Which of us will be next? With our human flaws and all we will eventually slip up. I just hope there's room for forgiveness when I make my mistakes...and I will make mistakes.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Accept that people do not need to end their business because they do not meet some standard that no one in the world meets.


There are plenty of small publishers who "meet some standard". They pay out their royalties on time, edit their authors' works and promote their titles.

Are you saying Ridan shouldn't be held to these standards?


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> I'm not an internet mob.


No, you're just turning the youth of America into witches. God have mercy on your soul!

I'm sorry. I think I'm in one of those moods again.


----------



## A. C. Crispin (Oct 8, 2012)

The StarBridge books available for sale as e-books on Amazon, B&N, and Kobo.com have now been transferred back to me and my collaborators.  We will be working to create new editions with different covers, updating the files to take Ridan's name off them, etc., but the books -- and the money -- are now ours, rather than Ridan's.  Ridan cooperated on sending us the files, and we have confirmed that royalty payments have been paid. Ridan has NOT removed the books from its website yet; do not purchase my books there or on iTunes, where, for technical reasons, there is difficulty transferring the titles.

Re-launching the books with new covers will take some time, obviously.  I'd also like to have them available in hardcopy and as audio books.  We're investigating ways to do that. 

In the meantime, the current editions will be for sale on Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble.com, and Kobo.com, and the payments will go in their entirety to me and my collaborators.  So if you were thinking of purchasing them, you can do so and know that your money will go to the authors and not Ridan. 

Also, thanks to Robin Sullivan, Ancestor's World, (StarBridge 6) should be appearing for sale on Amazon and B&N in a day or two, with Voices of Chaos (StarBridge 7) to follow in a week or so. 

While this is obviously not what I had hoped for when I published with Ridan, I hope that all this publicity about the StarBridge books will bring them to the attention of more readers, and those who wish me well will consider buying copies, not out of charity, but because they are fun reads.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

modwitch said:


> Only the ones that like cookies .


The first version of my comment included nutella and cookies. Clearly I should've left that in there.


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

Hazcat said:


> Actually, I asked the two questions to clarify something - that harm has been done, both to customers and to authors. (You'll note that I stated I had not purchased books because they were published by Ridan). That direct financial harm was done needed to be directly drawn out so as to underscore the point for anyone considering dealing with Ridan. The last series of posts form a beautiful summary of the situation.


But since those questions had already been answered clearly, I don't see why you felt the need to ask them again, especially while questioning our motives for doing so.

And I keep seeing you criticize those who are criticizing Ridan in much the same way, which is what made me suspicious.



> R.e. whether it's worth someones time and energy to complain? Your call, but it's actually only a couple minutes effort to do so. Just do a search for "United States Postal Inspection Service" and you'll land on a page that walks you through the process. Will it get your money back? Probably not. But it takes about the same amount of time as posting on this board. And it only requires a few complaints to get the attention of an Inspector. If the Inspector determines that the case does not fall into their jurisdiction, it gets referred - and because it's a referral, it receives even closer inspection. So (to me) the question boils down to "vent vs. act."


At no point did any transaction involve the US Postal Service. Why would a complaint to them do anything?



SherylNantus said:


> There are plenty of small publishers who "meet some standard". They pay out their royalties on time, edit their authors' works and promote their titles.


And deliver paid-for product to customers promptly and without badgering.


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2012)

Authors are at a disadvantage.

They must allow publishers to hold onto their royalties for months, while publishers can earn interest or pay THEIR bills.

This is the digital age where computerized cash registers can tell at the end of the day which books have been sold. The store may have a 30-day return policy. On day 32, royalties should start flowing to the authors.

The current payment policies date back to bookkeepers using quill pens.

A pile of money sitting in a publisher's cash box for months and months is a big temptation to use our money for conferences, vacations, etc.

I repeat: on day 32, royalties should start flowing to the authors.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks for the update, Ann. I am going to go buy your books now, not because of "charity" (though I certainly think you deserve some support) but because you wrote one of my absolute favorite _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ books ever, which is now also one of my daughter's absolute favorite ST:TNG novels as well. I am looking forward to trying something different from you.


----------



## SherylNantus (Oct 5, 2011)

Okey Dokey said:


> I repeat: on day 32, royalties should start flowing to the authors.


Some publishers are paying monthly.

Some aren't.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

A. C. Crispin said:


> The StarBridge books available for sale as e-books on Amazon, B&N, and Kobo.com have now been transferred back to me and my collaborators. We will be working to create new editions with different covers, updating the files to take Ridan's name off them, etc., but the books -- and the money -- are now ours, rather than Ridan's. Ridan cooperated on sending us the files, and we have confirmed that royalty payments have been paid. Ridan has NOT removed the books from its website yet; do not purchase my books there or on iTunes, where, for technical reasons, there is difficulty transferring the titles.
> 
> Re-launching the books with new covers will take some time, obviously. I'd also like to have them available in hardcopy and as audio books. We're investigating ways to do that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this, Ann. And welcome to KindleBoards.

Betsy


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Since this thread is likely to be preserved for some time, if you have any words you'd like to leave behind for posterity, anything you'd like to get off your chest, this is probably as good a place as any to do it.

Jimmy Hoffa is in my backyard.

Carry on.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

For those interested, here is a link to Ann's author page on Amazon, and a gateway to her books.

This is a link to only the Kindle books.

Off to check them out.

Betsy


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Ok ... so you seem to know the underlying causes ... what were they? Can you please describe them?
> 
> Also, for added points, can you describe how Robin is to provide proof that those underlying causes have been addressed? Should they be posted on KB? On their website? Would you like a 15-point plan described in a PDF and then updated as progress is made?
> 
> ...


Modwitch discussed the_ underlying causes_ in detail and at length. I suggest reading the thread. Why does Ridan not have automatic fulfillment of eBook orders which is standard in the industry? Why is their royalty setup at best slapdash?

Until a number of us see proof how can we do anything else than tell people we think they should NOT to trust Ridan with their work and livelihood. We are NOT talking about a hobby here. This is how people pay the mortgage and buy groceries. I expect more than Robin coming and telling us she stuck on a BandAid.

Would I take the word of someone who came here and said that they were helping Robin set up the needed database and making appropriate changes to her website? Possibly. Do you see that happening? I SURE DON'T. Even _Robin_ hasn't said she was addressing the underlying causes. Not good enough.


----------



## SunHi Mistwalker (Feb 28, 2012)

modwitch said:


> A widget with the unlikely little name of ecwid .
> 
> There is a difference between forgiveness and keeping future authors informed. I think forgiveness is up to the authors and readers who have been wronged by Ridan, and they will most likely vote with their book rights and their pocketbooks. I have been one of the tough voices in this thread because currently, Robin is still on a panel to speak at NY ComiCon next week on epublishing. She has a very good reputation out there in the industry, and authors might well bank on that reputation in making a decision where to put their books. Wanting all the information to be readily available to those authors isn't damnation, at least on my part - but it is a strong belief that this information deserve to be in the light, and to stay there at least until clear changes have happened at Ridan.


Thanks for the widget name! And I do agree that it is up to those who have been wronged to decide if they want to forgive or not. When I spoke of forgiveness I was really referring to the onlookers who are not directly involved, but who have passed judgment. Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I just wanted to add my perspective to the thread. Like I said before I have no inside information on the specific events, I'm just speaking in general terms. But I'm glad I posted because I got some good information. I'm going to investigate this widget right now. Have fun folks!


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

@MG:

I wasn't criticizing, I was asking a very specific set of questions for which a very specific set of answers was received.  And, no, much as you might think so, the issues had not been put into stark summary previously.  They were scattered about in bits and pieces, with the exception of your post relative to having paid and not having received the ebooks.  Suggest you take a few minutes and look through the USC cite I provided.  You might find it enlightening.  As for why the USPS?  Oddly enough, they have the lead on investigations involving email - and Ridan promising to email the books gives them primacy.  Not something most folks would know, I admit.  But there you have it.

Name and shame is one means of compelling performance, but remember that it is only one of many - and often the most transitory.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> Until a number of us see proof how can we do anything else than tell people we think they should NOT to trust Ridan with their work and livelihood.


Describe in detail the proof that you will accept. What do you want to "see"?


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Describe in detail the proof that you will accept. What do you want to "see"?


Did you bother to read my post? Evidently not.

Since even_* Robin*_ hasn't said she is addressing the problems, it's a moot point, isn't it? What exactly are we supposed to make of that? She says she is fixing the _some_ of the _results_ of their sloppy business practices and that is supposed to be enough. It isn't.

ETA: But I don't want this thread to become about a back and forth between the two of us, I am leaving the thread at least for the time being. My concerns and opinion have already been stated. I don't wish Robin ill, but this has been -- horrible. And it will be difficult, maybe impossible, to turn around to save Ridan's reputation.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> For those interested, here is a link to Ann's author page on Amazon, and a gateway to her books.
> 
> Off to check them out.
> 
> Betsy


Thanks for the link. That way, it's easier to find


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

Hazcat said:


> As for why the USPS? Oddly enough, they have the lead on investigations involving email - and Ridan promising to email the books gives them primacy. Not something most folks would know, I admit. But there you have it.


So I googled that, and got https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.aspx, which says:



> Skip Navigation LinksHome > Contact Us > File a Complaint
> 
> File a Complaint
> 
> ...


So I checked out the Mail Fraud page, which says:



> Mail Fraud Complaint
> The form below allows you to send a complaint to the U.S. Postal Inspection Service if you suspect you are a victim of mail fraud. Reporting identity theft on-line is a separate form.
> 
> Although the Postal Inspection Service cannot resolve routine business disputes between companies and their customers, it can act against a company or individual if there is a pattern of activity suggesting a potential scheme to defraud. Completion of this form is voluntary, but the more information that you enter, the better the Postal Inspection Service may be able to help.
> ...


"{T}he Postal Inspection Service cannot resolve routine business disputes between companies and their customers" doesn't sound like this form covers the problem. Certainly none of the other complaint forms do. Adding "email" to the original search gets me nothing additional that is of any use.

Any more suggestions you'll judge me if I don't take?

Whatever you _meant_, you _sounded_ pretty critical, and honestly pretty rude. You questioned our motives in one of your two original questions, and since I am the only person on this board to actually state that Ridan did not deliver paid-for goods to me personally, you asked me and only me to repeat details I had already laid out very precisely.



> So... for those who ordered books from Ridan and received neither goods nor response despite posted timelines and offered contractual terms: Were you charged? In other words, did money change hands? If not, than except for a certain feeling of betrayal, you have legally suffered no harm.


See? "Those who ordered books". Not authors. Which means me.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Guys, let's not lose focus. 

Ann, thanks for the update. I look forward to reading these books, since your Star Trek novels rank among my favorites!


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I posted this on one of my groups, but thought I'd post here, too:



> Just so that I understand - Ann has the ebook rights to the entire Starbridge series and she's transferring them to herself? Or is it that it's only some of the series?
> 
> I've never read that series and I'd like to give it a try (I didn't realize Ann Crispin was A. Crispin of TNG fan -- I'm an idiot, I know), but #1 isn't available


----------



## B Sheridan (Dec 5, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> For those interested, here is a link to Ann's author page on Amazon, and a gateway to her books.
> 
> Off to check them out.
> 
> Betsy


I tried to find the first in her Starbridge series, but couldn't find a kindle version. That's the one that Ridan already transferred into her account, right?

I admit I rarely if ever read SF/F, but lately I've decided it's time to spread my wings (like my TBR pile isn't big enough already *g*)


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Thanks for the link. That way, it's easier to find


 

I've found that to be true in most cases.

I generally post links that reflect my own self-interest. I wanted an easy way to get to Ann's books, so thought I would share it.

Betsy


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Blake Sheridan said:


> I tried to find the first in her Starbridge series, but couldn't find a kindle version. That's the one that Ridan already transferred into her account, right?
> 
> I admit I rarely if ever read SF/F, but lately I've decided it's time to spread my wings (like my TBR pile isn't big enough already *g*)


Try this link, it's the books in her name in the Kindle Store.


----------



## MegHarris (Mar 4, 2010)

I believe the first Starbridge book is here:



_Thanks, Ellen! I've added the coverlink. And now off to buy! Betsy_


----------



## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

SherylNantus said:


> From Ann's post on Facebook:
> 
> "I know some of you were waiting for books 6 and 7 in the StarBridge series. Those books were turned in months ago, edited and ready to go, but they have never been released."
> 
> ...


I knew I had read that somewhere. Glad to know I didn't imagine it.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

THANKS!


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

*scratches head* I'm just one lowly ebook author and even I have instant fulfillment on my direct ebook sales. It's not exactly new tech.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Does the direct ebook selling thing keep track of those in your own state that buy from you? (Because in my state I have to pay sales taxes on any instate sales, even if done through the internet.)

Sorry to derail.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Okey Dokey said:


> Authors are at a disadvantage.
> 
> They must allow publishers to hold onto their royalties for months, while publishers can earn interest or pay THEIR bills.
> 
> ...


The publisher should pay authors before the publisher even has access to the funds? Distributors pay at either 60 days or with 30 days after the end of the quarter. I was told that Ridan's contract has payments issued every quarter. So, sometimes sales made in quarter one might not be paid until quarter three because we, as publishers, are delayed 60 days. If a sale is made in March, the publisher gets paid on it in June, so it counts as a quarter 2 sale, which wouldn't be paid until quarter 3 (July to September). 6 months delay for perfectly good reasons: 1, the contractual payment terms and 2, the money takes forever to get to the publisher in the first place.

I'm not saying this to excuse the mistakes and errors made, but some delays are to be expected under such a model. Therefore, an author who hasn't been paid 6 months after release is actually due for the first payment in that model. An author not receiving payment one year after publication is actually about 6 months behind. 6 months behind is bad, but I think people are saying that payments were a year or more behind, which does not seem to be the case.

The other delays do seem to be long to me. Of course, I edit, design, freelance out, and publish in the span of one month on a new title. Some can do it even faster than that.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

Nonetheless, that is in fact the correct form and place to file a complaint. As I noted, will it get you your money back? Probably not - getting you your money back is not their mission.

I asked "those who ordered books" - which is plural. Unless you are more than one person, you are taking this entirely too personally. Are there others out there, or are you the only person that has not had an order fulfilled?

I also am not judging you for choosing or not choosing to take suggestions, actions, or anything else. Again, I'll simply note that in my original post I made a specific statement that it's your decision what you wish to do.

I _am_, on the other hand, judging you for getting defensive in the face of no offense, and accusing me of being critical or rude. That's fairly rich considering your immediate accusation that I was a "sock puppet" simply for posting a set of questions that you read to be somehow defending Ridan. And the results of my judgement? I chose not to engage in further one-on-one with you that is frankly off topic. The focus of this thread is the nonperformance of Ridan Publishing, with the intent to ensure that their actions and inactions are accurately and succinctly captured for authors and readers consideration. That's fairly well summed up by the thread subject.

@ A. C. Crispin - wonderful news, that you're back up so quickly. I agree with Modwitch that it would have been nice to get a 'new release' status, but I just ordered #5 and #6 and I'm looking forward to #7! Good luck with everything.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> The fact is there is absolutely no action that Robin can take now that will satisfy the internet mob. People want her utter and complete destruction. She shall never have a publishing company again!
> 
> ...
> 
> She has taken steps to right this problem. Accept it and move on.


Actually, no. She hasn't. When someone has a serious problem that has a year-long impact on their business, and they come on one year later saying that the problem is that she is the only employee of Ridan... when we know that the publishing house is bringing in six figures of income ... The step she needs to take is this:

1. She needs to make everything right. That means compensation for lost royalties, etc.
2. She needs to demonstrate that this will never happen again. That means pointing to procedures that have been implemented that will allow her to avoid

If Robin wants to remain in business, she needs to hire someone who can be trusted not to fall down on the job. She has already demonstrated that she cannot be trusted. She has not done that. If she wants to remain in business, after being absent for months, she must take extraordinary measures to make things right. A few e-mails and phone calls trying to pay royalties that should have been paid months ago do not count.

I say this as a person who has difficulty remembering to pay my phone bill. If I didn't have autopay, I'd be screwed. That means that if I ever go into business where I owe someone payments, I need to be self-aware enough to recognize that I need to make the responsibility for getting those payments out sit on someone's shoulders, someone trustworthy--so that for me, it would work like autopay.

We now know that if Robin has issues arise in her life, she's going to flake on authors. So what she needs to do to convince people that her publishing business should remain a viable, going concern, is to demonstrate that if those issues arise again, this will not happen. Her say-so is not good enough here--and if she's not self-aware enough to know that this is something that she needs to manage, I don't think people should work with her.

This isn't about wanting Ridan to be torn down. It's about wanting authors to be protected.

I'm convinceable, but nothing Robin has said has convinced me yet that I should do anything except tell people to run away.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> The publisher should pay authors before the publisher even has access to the funds? Distributors pay at either 60 days or with 30 days after the end of the quarter. I was told that Ridan's contract has payments issued every quarter. So, sometimes sales made in quarter one might not be paid until quarter three because we, as publishers, are delayed 60 days. If a sale is made in March, the publisher gets paid on it in June, so it counts as a quarter 2 sale, which wouldn't be paid until quarter 3 (July to September). 6 months delay for perfectly good reasons: 1, the contractual payment terms and 2, the money takes forever to get to the publisher in the first place.
> 
> I'm not saying this to excuse the mistakes and errors made, but some delays are to be expected under such a model. Therefore, an author who hasn't been paid 6 months after release is actually due for the first payment in that model. An author not receiving payment one year after publication is actually about 6 months behind. 6 months behind is bad, but I think people are saying that payments were a year or more behind, which does not seem to be the case.
> 
> The other delays do seem to be long to me. Of course, I edit, design, freelance out, and publish in the span of one month on a new title. Some can do it even faster than that.


All of my contracts state language along the lines of: payment made 45 (or whatever) days after the end of each quarter. Payment from 3rd party distributors is paid at the end of the quarter the money was received. Website sales are paid at the end of the quarter they were made. 
So what happens is that (for example):

Someone buys my ebook on January 1 on Amazon. I don't get that payment until August 15, unless Amazon manages to get the payment to the publisher before March 31st (end of the quarter). Amazon is not known to be that on the ball  That means I miss the May 15th statement, so I have to wait until August 15.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

rsullivan9597 said:


> I'm not going to go into details, but I have had some personal tragedies that have been all consuming, and this has meant that many balls have been dropped. I'm extremely sorry for this, and if I could erase what has transpired I would, but I've yet to invent that time machine. Yes I went on vacation (it had been booked in advance and both the airfare and hotels were non-refundable - plus I REALLY needed to get away), but I also got up each morning at 4:00 and worked on Ridan stuff before my husband and son got up).


But for the last several months, those hours have not included the thirty seconds or so it would have taken to, for example, respond to one of the many emails you received from this household asking how things were proceeding on edits. It does not take a lot of effort to press the "send" on the screen for a PayPal transaction, either. My checkbook is testament to that .

I'm delighted that you've contacted my husband now that the flames have hit the fan, so to speak. And yes, as we look things over you were not technically in arrears on payments. You did, however, through your lack of attention, delay the publication of 3 of the five books in my husband's series, which should have been available to his readers long, long before this.

One cannot build a career as a writer if his or her publisher is standing in the way.

I do hope things improve for you. I'm certain they will for your authors.


----------



## B Sheridan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks Betsy and Ellen for the link! 

Apparently it didn't come up because I searched "Starbridge ac crispin." Periods, I can add them.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

shelleyo1 said:


> My point is that as far as our purposes here, whether it's criminal or civil is irrelevant. That's between the slighted authors and their lawyers and Ridan. Arguing over terms and speculating over motivation and such really does nothing but muddy the issue.
> 
> I don't care if it's technically criminal or not, since that argument does nothing to further the cause. I care that Ann and the other authors get paid, that Ridan takes their books down and stops collecting royalties on them, and that the writers can move on to self-publish and earn the money they should be.


Bravo this. This is EXACTLY the point. Thank you.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

MadGastronomer said:


> At no point did any transaction involve the US Postal Service. Why would a complaint to them do anything?


Having personally observed the packaging and delivery of a fair tonnage of print volumes from our own little dingy basement here on Ridan's behalf - some of which were done at the author's personal expense after the publisher failed to fulfill orders -- I would have to disagree with this statement. It's simply incorrect.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

> 1. She needs to make everything right. That means compensation for lost royalties, etc.


Okay, so a clear demand. How shall you calculate possible lost royalties? Also, what is the "etc"? How shall this information be presented to you so you are convinced? Will a blog post do it?



> 2. She needs to demonstrate that this will never happen again. That means pointing to procedures that have been implemented that will allow her to avoid


So what procedures are you talking about? How shall Robin convince you that procedures have been implemented? Do you want, for example, a blog post from an independent accountant with an escrow account who states that all payments will run through them and be paid on time? How _precisely_ shall Robin prove her procedures to you?



> If Robin wants to remain in business, she needs to hire someone who can be trusted not to fall down on the job. She has already demonstrated that she cannot be trusted. She has not done that.


Just one person? Should that hiring be announced on the blog? Do you need to see their resume to ensure they meet your standard? What will convince you?



> If she wants to remain in business, after being absent for months, she must take extraordinary measures to make things right. A few e-mails and phone calls trying to pay royalties that should have been paid months ago do not count.


Please detail these "extraordinary measures".



> Her say-so is not good enough here


So what is? What else is there apart from her saying in writing or personally that things will change? Do you need to see notarised documents?


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

Hazcat said:


> Nonetheless, that is in fact the correct form and place to file a complaint. As I noted, will it get you your money back? Probably not - getting you your money back is not their mission.


And I'm supposed to take your word for over what it actually says on the form? Why?



> I asked "those who ordered books" - which is plural. Unless you are more than one person, you are taking this entirely too personally. Are there others out there, or are you the only person that has not had an order fulfilled?


But I'm the only member of that set actually present, therefor I am the only person actually addressed, since there is so far no one else here who fits the criteria. And since I had already laid out all of the information, there weren't more random bits scattered around, as you have claimed. Somebody said their uncle had not received books ordered, but, once again, I'm the only one actually here.



Kay Lowell said:


> Having personally observed the packaging and delivery of a fair tonnage of print volumes from our own little dingy basement here on Ridan's behalf - some of which were done at the author's personal expense after the publisher failed to fulfill orders -- I would have to disagree with this statement. It's simply incorrect.


Huh? Except I'm talking about _my_ purchase, which was of ebooks purchased electronically. Hazcat gave me advice on what I might do about that. I'm not talking about physical books anywhere.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Matthew,
> 
> No one here is making business decisions for Robin. She's the only one that can do that. We're just asking questions, posting what we know has happened, and airing our thoughts on the matter. We do not decide what happens to Ridan.
> 
> If what we say here affects her business, it is because things have happened and this information is now out in the open. How is having more information a bad thing? Authors should be knowledgeable about what they are getting themselves into. If other authors decide to sign with Ridan, shouldn't they know what has happened, so they can make an informed decision?


Of course the information should be out in the open. But when people on here write "we need to see the proof things have changed" and then completely and utterly decline to describe this imaginary level of "proof" it is very clear this isn't just informing the people but rather intent on destroying Ridan.

Even our court systems can clearly describe what form apology, recompense, reconcilliation, etc must take. People do it all the time e.g. "I expect you to apologise" etc.

Yet here on internet court, all these people are making vague statements about what must be done and then flaking on detail. They don't want to admit their true position: they want Robin to shut down Ridan and never show her face again.


----------



## Rachel Schurig (Apr 9, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Okay, so a clear demand. How shall you calculate possible lost royalties? Also, what is the "etc"? How shall this information be presented to you so you are convinced? Will a blog post do it?
> 
> So what procedures are you talking about? How shall Robin convince you that procedures have been implemented? Do you want, for example, a blog post from an independent accountant with an escrow account who states that all payments will run through them and be paid on time? How _precisely_ shall Robin prove her procedures to you?
> 
> ...


Ridan authors reporting that emails are being answered in a timely matter would be a good start--and without a controversy blowing up on the Internet first. I think that's the most distressing part about this; the refusal to communicate with authors. And then using the excuse that a personal problem prevented Robin from doing so, even though she seemed to have plenty of time to participate on panels.


----------



## Kay Lowell (Oct 6, 2012)

I thought I should make something clear before I continue to flame on . I would like to attempt to bring the discussion back to its main point.

I obviously have a personal interest in seeing that things between Ridan and its authors are resolved. I've tried very hard to keep my nose out of my husband's interests for the years during which he has been, well, "interested" in them. You'll notice that you've not, for instance, met ME at conferences along with him. I don't matter. But this situation is different. While the inattention to my husband's efforts has had me absolutely disgusted for a very long while now, that was not the "Straw."

What has finally pushed me over the edge was learning that Ann Crispin had not been paid royalties -- of whatever magnitude they may or may not be -- _for an entire year_. Her personal situation makes it all the more unacceptable that this should be the case.

She should be the focus of this, and as several people have pointed out, we should be able to do something that will at least *help* to rectify the situation in a fairly short amount of time. I for one am not an enormous Star Trek fan but I most certainly will purchase her books on principle. Based on what I'm reading here, I'll bet I will enjoy them, too.

However, I hope you will all understand that it is strictly from a personal standpoint that I say that, based on personal observations, I will believe it all when I see it.

No matter how utterly lame the excuses may be, they are at least an attempt to address the issues - finally. I do hope you all can go back to supporting your favorite authors once our collective indignation has been aired. We deserve to air it, but they deserve us to pay more attention to their books than the methods of their delivery .


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Okay, so a clear demand. How shall you calculate possible lost royalties? Also, what is the "etc"? How shall this information be presented to you so you are convinced? Will a blog post do it?


...This is not that hard to calculate, and putting pressure on this just makes you look ridiculous. You calculate the number of copies sold, and the royalties earned, and you pay the authors the money they are owed. I would be convinced by Nathan Lowell, AC Crispin, and the other authors who have complained of lack of payment stating, "I have been paid in full."



> So what procedures are you talking about? How shall Robin convince you that procedures have been implemented? Do you want, for example, a blog post from an independent accountant with an escrow account who states that all payments will run through them and be paid on time? How _precisely_ shall Robin prove her procedures to you?


A blog post stating, "We have engaged the services of X person to handle our finances," where X person is a person with a valid CPA license, something that can be determined by a visit to the state website, would be sufficient, and giving the authors the means to contact that person, would be satisfactory.



> Please detail these "extraordinary measures".


I already have. She should hire an independent accountant who will go through the statements and verify that the authors have been paid in full. She should offer all of her authors the chance to get their rights back now. She should detail the reasons why books were not being posted and give an explanation what she plans to do to get future books posted in a reasonable time, such as hiring freelancers to detect OCR errors and so forth.



> So what is? What else is there apart from her saying in writing or personally that things will change? Do you need to see notarised documents?


I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I am not saying that her word is not good enough for anything and that from here on out, everything she says needs to be run through a lie detector. I am saying that she cannot simply say, "Things will be different," without explaining what things will be different, and what measures she has taken to prevent this from happening again.

As someone who is herself a flake, I know how this works. I know what it looks like when someone flakes out. I have never flaked out on this scale, but I recognize flakiness in others, and I also know that I have never addressed the issues caused by my own flakiness by vowing to do things better next time. That resolve works for six months, or until the next crises, when I once again forget to put the darned check in the mail. So at this point, I deal with this by not putting myself in the position of having to put the darned check in the mail. If I ever started a publishing house, I would first find an amazing, competent, wonderful business manager who I could trust to have the checks in the mail, and then I'd get an accountant on retainer and bring them up to speed so that if my business manager got sick, someone could take care of things who wasn't me. I do that because I know my weaknesses. I know what I cannot trust myself to do.

If someone says, "I've changed, but I have not changed any of the behaviors that led up to the change, it's meaningless. I simply don't believe that people change just because they change their minds. If someone falls into a pit that's ten months of non-communication and failure to pay royalties and books sitting on the back burner when they should be published now, that tells me that person has both an organizational and a delegation weakness, one that will explode into disaster the instant that one thing slips somewhere. I also suspect, based on her schedule, that she is drastically overcommitting her time--and that she is the kind of person who has a hard time saying "no." What she needs to do is explain in detail the organizational changes that she's made, and the delegation that she will be doing in the future. That way, I know that she's not just claiming that things will change without addressing her weaknesses.

What we are seeing here is an institutional failure. That institutional failure happens to be Robin's personal failure, because Robin is the institution. It's painfully clear that there are no processes in place to deal with Robin failing. If Ridan intends to be a viable publisher, they cannot have their institutional structure so dependent on Robin. What would happen if she were incapacitated? If she died? If she got really sick? These are all horrible things to happen, and I don't want them to happen--but life happens to everyone, and as an author, I would not put my future and the livelihood on the roll of someone else's dice.

I wouldn't publish with Amazon if Jeff Bezos was personally issuing the royalty statements, either--even if he did the best job in the world, one day, something would happen. Inevitably. And I wouldn't get paid, and it would be a headache.

I'm not saying Ridan shouldn't be given a second chance. I am saying that until they address proven problems, I do not believe they are a good choice for authors--and having followed the history of numerous small publishing houses, I am going to place a bet that if Robin doesn't address the weaknesses that have been exposed here, in a year--or two--or three--we'll see the same darned thing happening again. She'll still be off addressing conferences, authors will complain their books aren't up and that e-mails aren't getting answered and royalties aren't getting out.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Kay Lowell said:


> While the inattention to my husband's efforts has had me absolutely disgusted for a very long while now, that was not the "Straw."
> 
> What has finally pushed me over the edge was learning that Ann Crispin had not been paid royalties -- of whatever magnitude they may or may not be -- _for an entire year_.


I'm glad you've spoken up, Kay.

Personally, I'm still sitting on my hands about the royalty issue. A publisher even _hinting_ in public at the amount of money an author earned with them, let alone doing so in the way she did, is so unbelievably _arrogant, unprofessional and classless_, I'm still in awe about it.

Really, if nothing else had convinced me of Ridan's unsuitability to be handling anyone's royalties and career, that would have done it.

I hope Ann's books break out now, big-time.


----------



## MadGastronomer (Oct 8, 2012)

Kay Lowell said:


> I for one am not an enormous Star Trek fan but I most certainly will purchase her books on principle. Based on what I'm reading here, I'll bet I will enjoy them, too.


They're really very good. But I don't think buying them will help. If I understand it correctly, most tie-in novels are work-for-hire, and the authors don't necessarily get royalties. That's why the Starbridge books were to be Ms. Crispin's sole source of income this year -- she doesn't get anything for the ST books. I think.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> Of course the information should be out in the open. But when people on here write "we need to see the proof things have changed" and then completely and utterly decline to describe this imaginary level of "proof" it is very clear this isn't just informing the people but rather intent on destroying Ridan.
> 
> Even our court systems can clearly describe what form apology, recompense, reconcilliation, etc must take. People do it all the time e.g. "I expect you to apologise" etc.
> 
> Yet here on internet court, all these people are making vague statements about what must be done and then flaking on detail. They don't want to admit their true position: they want Robin to shut down Ridan and never show her face again.


Every person on here is an individual. Each individual has their own opinion. Nothing posted on here is upheld in any court. It's just silly to compare this forum thread as a court of law. It's typed words on a screen. Most of the authors on here don't even have a contract with Ridan, don't write in the genre, and probably have never thought about submitting books to Ridan. We're just talking.

Maybe something we say will help an author who is being offered a contract make a more informed decision. That is all.


----------



## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

_This is a comment from the Emergency Thread Hijacking Service._

Victorine: I'm in Oregon, no sales tax. whee! But if there were taxes here, my shopping cart could handle it. It collects addresses, etc. I sell paperbacks as well as ebooks through that cart. It calculates shipping, too.

_We now return you to your thread, which is already in progress._


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> This is absolutely right. Robin has made the correct choice is leaving this thread for now. I mean, she came on, explained herself, and took quick steps to rectify the problem.


I've stayed out of this 'til now as I don't have a dog in this hunt, though I have thought the whole situation was appalling. Not so much that the ball was dropped - shtuff happens - although a year's worth of ball-dropping is pretty horrendous. But that it took a public shaming to get any sort of response is what gets my goat. And sorry to call you out, Mathew, but "quick steps"? No. Multiple emails were sent across a span of weeks (months?) and TWO *certified letters* were sent and ignored. Do I ascribe maliciousness to the ignoring of the certified mail? Not necessarily. However, it does demonstrate a very determined "head in the sand" approach. In summation - no, "quick steps" were _not_ taken - at least not in my opinion.


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> All of my contracts state language along the lines of: payment made 45 (or whatever) days after the end of each quarter. Payment from 3rd party distributors is paid at the end of the quarter the money was received. Website sales are paid at the end of the quarter they were made.
> So what happens is that (for example):
> 
> Someone buys my ebook on January 1 on Amazon. I don't get that payment until August 15, unless Amazon manages to get the payment to the publisher before March 31st (end of the quarter). Amazon is not known to be that on the ball  That means I miss the May 15th statement, so I have to wait until August 15.


Right. All I meant to say is that some of the delays are built in to the publisher-author relationship. Some of these were delayed beyond the reasonable times, but not all.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

Kay - if you like your husbands books (...don't answer that...) you are almost certain to enjoy the Starbridge series.  While there are bug eyed monsters, and they're not always kindly, the real focus is on understanding cultures and reaching across divides.  

I actually hunted down the last ones in used paperback format once I realized that I did not want to purchase them as long as Ridan got a cut.  Now that she's releasing them as self-published eBooks, I'll be completing the set.  And feeling a lot better about it knowing that more of the money is going where it belongs, instead of to somebody like Ridan as unearned income.  

I'm also seriously happy to know that Nathan will be self-publishing as well.  Not only does it mean the books will actually get out the door, but again more of the money will be going where it belongs.  Hopefully, he'll reissue with new covers to make a completely clean break.  Whatever he does, I can't wait to read the last books and knowing that it's the author working on things that is taking time, instead of a publisher ignoring them - I'm more than willing to wait.

Did Nathan ever give you the bookshelf he promised in the Quarter Share dedication?


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

BrianKittrell said:


> Right. All I meant to say is that some of the delays are built in to the publisher-author relationship. Some of these were delayed beyond the reasonable times, but not all.


Sorry, Brian. I didn't word my reply correctly. I was trying to offer additional information to your statement for those who didn't understand it.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Arkali said:


> I've stayed out of this 'til now as I don't have a dog in this hunt, though I have thought the whole situation was appalling. Not so much that the ball was dropped - shtuff happens - although a year's worth of ball-dropping is pretty horrendous. But that it took a public shaming to get any sort of response is what gets my goat. And sorry to call you out, Mathew, but "quick steps"? No. Multiple emails were sent across a span of weeks (months?) and TWO *certified letters* were sent and ignored. Do I ascribe maliciousness to the ignoring of the certified mail? Not necessarily. However, it does demonstrate a very determined "head in the sand" approach. In summation - no, "quick steps" were _not_ taken - at least not in my opinion.


I meant "quick steps since the massive public shaming began". Isn't that what we're talking about?


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> ...This is not that hard to calculate, and putting pressure on this just makes you look ridiculous. You calculate the number of copies sold, and the royalties earned, and you pay the authors the money they are owed. I would be convinced by Nathan Lowell, AC Crispin, and the other authors who have complained of lack of payment stating, "I have been paid in full."


Ah, so by "compensation for lost royalties" you mean "payment of unpaid royalties". Not compensation for some unknown quantity, such as the authors who had their books delayed to publication. Correct?

In any case, good response. I applaud someone actually making clear statements of what they expect rather than vague "something should be done" comments.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Every person on here is an individual. Each individual has their own opinion. Nothing posted on here is upheld in any court. It's just silly to compare this forum thread as a court of law. It's typed words on a screen. Most of the authors on here don't even have a contract with Ridan, don't write in the genre, and probably have never thought about submitting books to Ridan. We're just talking.
> 
> Maybe something we say will help an author who is being offered a contract make a more informed decision. That is all.


So ... is this a massive public shaming that brought the collected power of individuals together to force a recalcitrant publisher to finally answer or ... just people talking? 
It can't really be both now can it?

I refer to this as "internet court" because people on here are putting forward evidence and then giving their view on what should happen. Clearly it's not an actual court or meant to mean anything is to be upheld in court (excepting those silly people who've made statements without evidence and foolishly believe that adding "in my opinion" to the front of it protects them from defamation claims).

I want threads like this to come up but once a business has responded to the massive public shaming, that should at least be acknowledged as good and making progress. Ann has her books back. Very few people then say this is a good first step.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> I want threads like this to come up but once a business has responded to the massive public shaming, that should at least be acknowledged as good and making progress. Ann has her books back. Very few people then say this is a good first step.


Matthew, did you read Robin's initial post in this thread?

Pretty much the entire "nothing seems to be changing" theme here springs from _her own words_. Had she posted differently, so would be the responses. She's not going to have a cheering section after that unprofessional travesty of a post. When it's time for a mea culpa and you belittle a writer, minimize the problems, share private financial information about how much that writer has allegedly earned with your company, and point out how wonderful you are for doing x and y only after you were shamed into it, no one's going to jump up and down and praise you for doing it. Nor should they. Her post really did set the tone from that point on.

Some of us have listed the problems with the company and been pretty darn measured in our posts. Very few people have actually called for Ridan to shut down, but you focus on those. So the few that have acknowledged that progress is being made have to count for just as much, and there have been some. You mentioned that people are intent on destroying Ridan in another post--I disagree. People are angry and disappointed, rightfully so. The only person who can destroy Ridan is its owner, and she's taken great strides in that direction without any help.


----------



## MosesSiregarIII (Jul 15, 2010)

Victorine said:


> Every person on here is an individual.


Speak for yourself, Vicki. I prefer to think of myself as an internet mob: many voices, one head.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Ah, so by "compensation for lost royalties" you mean "payment of unpaid royalties". Not compensation for some unknown quantity, such as the authors who had their books delayed to publication. Correct?
> 
> In any case, good response. I applaud someone actually making clear statements of what they expect rather than vague "something should be done" comments.


There is _no such thing_ as royalties for books that are delayed. Such royalties don't exist. Saying royalties by defintion means for books that were sold. If I am talking about paying taxes do I bother to say, "Oh, I'm not paying it on what I didn't earn"? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. So is discussing royalties on unsold books.

It wasn't necessary to say that because anyone who knows the term knows what it means.

And no, I did not say it was "a good first step" because as far as I am concerned it is not. Robin's post was a sad attempt at excuses. No real apology and she had the nerve to reveal an author's earnings without the author's express permission which is pretty much inexcusable imo and then make it even worse by somehow trying to spin the amount of the earnings as justification for non-payment. And, as I have pointed out several times, _nowhere _did she make mention of taking ANY steps to see that this kind of situation did not occur again.

No. NOT a good first step at all.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> There is _no such thing_ as royalties for books that are delayed. Such royalties don't exist. Saying royalties by defintion means for books that were sold. If I am talking about paying taxes do I bother to say, "Oh, I'm not paying it on what I didn't earn"? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. So is discussing royalties on unsold books.
> 
> It wasn't necessary to say that because anyone who knows the term knows what it means.
> 
> And no, I did not say it was "a good first step" because as far as I am concerned it is not. Robin's post was a sad attempt at excuses. No real apology and she had the nerve to reveal an author's earnings without the author's express permission which is pretty much inexcusable imo and then make it even worse by somehow trying to spin the amount of the earnings as justification for non-payment. No. NOT a good first step at all.


Courtney said: "1. She needs to make everything right. That means compensation for lost royalties, etc."

I was just clarifying what she meant. Lost royalties aren't the same as unpaid royalties.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

shelleyo1 said:


> Matthew, did you read Robin's initial post in this thread?
> 
> Pretty much the entire "nothing seems to be changing" theme here springs from _her own words_. Had she posted differently, so would be the responses. She's not going to have a cheering section after that unprofessional travesty of a post. When it's time for a mea culpa and you belittle a writer, minimize the problems, share private financial information about how much that writer has allegedly earned with your company, and point out how wonderful you are for doing x and y only after you were shamed into it, no one's going to jump up and down and praise you for doing it. Nor should they. Her post really did set the tone from that point on.
> Some of us have listed the problems with the company and been pretty darn measured in our posts. Very few people have actually called for Ridan to shut down, but you focus on those. So the few that have acknowledged that progress is being made have to count for just as much, and there have been some. You mentioned that people are intent on destroying Ridan in another post--I disagree. People are angry and disappointed, rightfully so. The only person who can destroy Ridan is its owner, and she's taken great strides in that direction without any help.


Yes, I read the thread. All of it. The musings on whether it's theft, the claims it is, the people skirting around defamation (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation), the calls for Ridan to shut down ... etc.

Robin's response left something to be desired but it should also be acknowledged that after this began she has acted swiftly to fix it. Ann has her books. She also noted that authors have been given a choice of stay or go. Money has been paid.

My issue with the responses here is that once the public shaming has achieved its goals, it still continues on, with more and more pressure to now shut down. Even Jim C Hines wrote a post applauding Robin for stepping up to handle this. We can't do the same?


----------



## BrianKittrell (Jan 8, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Sorry, Brian. I didn't word my reply correctly. I was trying to offer additional information to your statement for those who didn't understand it.


No worries.  I figured that, but I wanted to further clarify my point, too.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Yes, I read the thread. All of it. The musings on whether it's theft, the claims it is, the people skirting around defamation (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation), the calls for Ridan to shut down ... etc.
> 
> Robin's response left something to be desired but it should also be acknowledged that after this began she has acted swiftly to fix it. Ann has her books. She also noted that authors have been given a choice of stay or go. Money has been paid.
> 
> My issue with the responses here is that once the public shaming has achieved its goals, it still continues on, with more and more pressure to now shut down. Even Jim C Hines wrote a post applauding Robin for stepping up to handle this. We can't do the same?


Saying she handled it. Yes. Praising her for doing what she should have done months ago? Probably not. Advising other authors to sign with Ridan? Most definitely not.

ETA: I think people would be more likely to drop it if you stopped saying how wonderful and admirable she is that she did what I frankly consider the_ least_ she should have done as though it weren't only done under extreme pressure. Better late than never? Yep. But still not particularly praiseworthy.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

mathewferguson said:


> (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation)


Mathew - that would be in Australia, I suspect. In the U. S. the statement must be intentionally false.


----------



## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> Robin's response left something to be desired but it should also be acknowledged that after this began she has acted swiftly to fix it. Ann has her books. She also noted that authors have been given a choice of stay or go. Money has been paid.


I'm sorry, but she did not act swiftly to fix it.

Book launches were delayed for months and months, for more than one author. Phone calls were not answered or returned for months on end. Emails were not answered either. When the phone and email didn't work, *certified mail* was sent. That wasn't even picked up at the post office. More than one author had this treatment. And not just for a short time period while things got back to normal. For months and months and months. These issues have been going on for over a year.

Not to mention, money paid to Ridan from customers who wanted books, who got ignored. Authors had to send the books, on their own dime, to satisfy customers. That's deplorable.

Sorry, but jumping on this after it's gone on for over a year because now it's coming out in public isn't quite something to jump up and down about.

The reason I said in my opinion, Ridan should shut down was because it's been obvious for more than a short time that Robin has other things going on in her life. Lots of other things. If this little publishing thing isn't as important as all the other things, which she's shown by her actions, it should be shut down. It's only fair to the authors.

Just my opinion. I'm not telling Robin what to do. I'm not making decisions for her. Just stating my opinion.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Yes, I read the thread. All of it. The musings on whether it's theft, the claims it is, the people skirting around defamation (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation), the calls for Ridan to shut down ... etc.
> 
> Robin's response left something to be desired but it should also be acknowledged that after this began she has acted swiftly to fix it. Ann has her books. She also noted that authors have been given a choice of stay or go. Money has been paid.
> 
> My issue with the responses here is that once the public shaming has achieved its goals, it still continues on, with more and more pressure to now shut down. Even Jim C Hines wrote a post applauding Robin for stepping up to handle this. We can't do the same?


Asking for an independent audit would be wise on the authors' part. After all the delays, and considering that the last royalty payments aren't due (in Nathan's case at least) until Oct 31st. Asking for an audit is a way to clear the air on both sides, that shows the monetary side of the contracts has been fulfilled correctly. 
This is a calm and logical course of action, includes zero accusations and does not ask anybody to stop doing business.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

Offering to have the books audited would also go a ways toward demonstrating an open, transparent business relationship with the authors in question. It probably wouldn't get those who have left back, but it might (especially if the authors stated it had been satisfactory) help with damage control.

As a followup to my previous for Mathew (and presented for educational purposes, not in any way as providing legal counsel or advice):
Blacks' Law Dictionary defines defamation as an "intentional, unprivileged, false communication, either published or publically spoken, that injures another's reputation or good name." Yet, defamation is more than it may seem as it includes the common law torts of libel and slander - libel being written defamation and slander being spoken or oral defamation. When discussing defamation in general terms, it is commonly described as a knowingly untrue statement tending to "to diminish the esteem, respect, goodwill or confidence in which [the defamed person] is held, or to excite adverse, derogatory, or unpleasant feelings or opinions against him."

To establish a case for defamation, the defamed person must demonstrate that: (1) the accused party published a defamatory statement; (2) the defamatory statement identified the defamed person to a third person; (3) the defamatory statement was published to a third person; and (4) the defamed person's reputation suffered injury as a result of the statement. The term 'publication' generally refers to the communication of words to a third person. In short, the statement or writing must have come to the attention of someone other than the defamed person, and in a way that identified and injured his or her reputation.

The analysis does not end there. A fundamental point to bear in mind is that in order for a defamation claim to be actionable, the statement must be false. Under common law, truth is an affirmative defense to defamation. Further, the statement must be one of fact and not opinion. In other words, it must express an objective fact because the law will not punish an individual for merely expressing an opinion. Generally, a factual statement concerns a past or present event or state of affairs about which others may have knowledge. In the defamation arena, factual statements typically relate to the conduct or character of another individual. In contrast, an opinion is commentary about another person's personal conduct, qualifications or character that has some basis in fact.


----------



## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> My issue with the responses here is that once the public shaming has achieved its goals, it still continues on, with more and more pressure to now shut down. Even Jim C Hines wrote a post applauding Robin for stepping up to handle this. We can't do the same?


No, I don't believe anything she's said or done so far merits applause. She hasn't stepped up to do anything. If she'd have taken care of all this before the Internet buzzed with it, then she might have been stepping up to fix her mistakes. As it was, she was dragged down to do it when everyone was screaming about it, then patted herself on the back for it, working so hard to make it right and even "pulling an all-nighter," as she points out on Jim Hines' blog. 

Even with all that, if she had at least taken full accountability for it and not attempted the spin she did here, I think that would have gone a long way toward regaining some goodwill. Saying something like "I shouldn't have done this, I screwed up, I'm sorry" without the "but it was only one author and not much money anyway, and look how wonderful I've always been before!" could have been a _great_ start.

If you think she's done a great thing here, you go ahead and applaud her, but don't mind us in the quiet section.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Victorine said:


> I'm sorry, but she did not act swiftly to fix it.
> 
> Book launches were delayed for months and months, for more than one author. Phone calls were not answered or returned for months on end. Emails were not answered either. When the phone and email didn't work, *certified mail* was sent. That wasn't even picked up at the post office. More than one author had this treatment. And not just for a short time period while things got back to normal. For months and months and months. These issues have been going on for over a year.
> 
> ...


October 5th this thread opened. Again: acted swiftly once the massive public shaming began.

Not acted swiftly after a year or after some number of unanswered emails. Surely you don't think I mean that?


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation)


Sorry, that's not accurate. Truth is the best defense. Intent is not a factor if what you say is provably true.

(You are perhaps thinking of another libel defense, 'absence of malice.' The term has nothing to do with the common meaning of maliciousness, and in lay terms can be translated as: We took all the usual steps we take in our normal course of publishing, we upheld our professional standards and followed all our usual processes and procedures and yet an alleged libelous statement was published. In other words: An honest mistake. That defense goes away if the plaintiff can prove carelessness or unprofessionalism.)

Plus, in this case, Ridan was often publicized on Kindleboards. So we could even call the 'public figure' defense into the game if need be; statements about public figures are immune from charges of libel and defamation.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Yes, I read the thread. All of it. The musings on whether it's theft, the claims it is, the people skirting around defamation (fun fact: even if what you're saying is true, if you say it with malicious intent, you can still be committing defamation), the calls for Ridan to shut down ... etc.


Your "fun fact" is at best arguable. There are some state statutes that are on the books that do have that as a standard, but the Supreme Court precedent is pretty clear on this point, and I don't think those laws would pass constitutional scrutiny if they were put out there.

More importantly, Robin is undoubtedly a limited purpose public figure. She runs a publishing house, and speaks to large groups on a regular basis, putting herself forward as a an expert in the field. Anything true you say about her is fair game, and I think that even saying something demonstrably false would be shielded from harm.

For those who have actually studied defamation, I think it's pretty darned clear that nothing said in this thread comes remotely close to being defamatory.

Even if it did--even if you were right about the law--I don't think Ridan's reputation would be rehabilitated by suing Kindleboards members on the basis that their harsh statements, while true, were made with malicious intent. It would be suicidal for a company to try to sue on that basis.

There's a phrase in the first amendment lexicon for what you are doing: it's called a "chilling effect." You're trying to get people to be quiet, to stop speaking on a matter of what is clearly public interest, by issuing threats. I wish you wouldn't do that, but as we all know, the remedy for bad speech is more speech.


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Steve Silkin said:


> ...statements about public figures are immune from charges of libel and defamation.


Technically, this is not quite right, either. You can absolutely defame/libel a public figure. You'd have to prove, though, that the speaker acted with either knowledge of the falsity of the statement or with reckless indifference to the falsity of the statement.


----------



## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I've been reading through this thread and I am so sad to see what is going on here. I hope above all that the writers involved get everything due to them.


----------



## Hazcat (Oct 8, 2012)

A gentle reminder:  Mr. Ferguson is indicated as hailing from Australia.  Under their legal system he may very well be correct. Of course, Ridan is a Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America, company... And Kindleboards is similarly a U. S. entity.  So our legal system applies.  

I suspect he is not wrong, but out of context.  MTCW.


----------



## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

No, everything you say about a public figure is not _fair game_. I can assure you accusations of criminal behavior - explicitly high 5 to 6 figure accusations of theft made with no regard for fact and made even after the person accused, public figure or no, has attempted to defend from such accusations by disclosing the sum involved in a contract dispute was a few hundred bucks - is not one of those _fair game_ sort of things.

I know people are heated about this but these accusations have gone way too far.


----------



## mathewferguson (Oct 24, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> There's a phrase in the first amendment lexicon for what you are doing: it's called a "chilling effect." You're trying to get people to be quiet, to stop speaking on a matter of what is clearly public interest, by issuing threats. I wish you wouldn't do that, but as we all know, the remedy for bad speech is more speech.


There were some people on here bandying around phrases regarding "theft" without regard for the truth. Not just once was it repeated.

Remember KB mods said to "stick to the facts". Ask tough questions but stick to the facts. Really, those posts saying it was theft or that theft had been committed should probably be removed as breach of guidelines.

Just because someone adds "IMO" to the front of a malicious lie does not make it less of a malicious lie. Nor does it make it worth saying.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

T.L. Haddix said:


> I heard a new phrase the other day - hate fact. It's the truth, but it's such a despicable truth, it makes one feel bad to express it, and causes the person expressing the truth to be looked down upon. I get the feeling that's what is going on here. Robin has finally stepped forward, and therefore according to some, she should not have to face any other consequences past what has already been brought down upon her head. She admitted mea culpa, and therefore she should be forgiven, we should all move on, and let bygones be bygones. Those who are not satisfied with that and are rightfully outraged by her behavior are now being made to look like the bad guys. They aren't. They aren't the ones who broke trust and failed at meeting obligations. They aren't the ones who are going to have to scramble to make things right.
> 
> The sad and ugly hate truth is that Robin/Ridan messed up, she messed up big time, and compounded her mistakes by appearing in public as if all was well. It's like the grieving husband whose wife disappears but then orders the Playboy channel and sells his wife's car. It does not mean he killed his wife, but it certainly doesn't make him a nice guy. It also draws into question everything that comes out of his mouth.
> 
> It's fine to want to move on. But to try and pretend nothing happened, that since she did make a public statement and is apparently trying to make restitution/reparation, that all is forgiven? At what point did it become not okay to hold people accountable for their mistakes? We're not talking about losing your temper on a forum here. We're talking about financially and emotionally distressing people who were counting on you, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.


This.

When did it become not acceptable to warn others that if someone has had questionable business practices in the past, that one should take extreme care in doing business with them in the future? I will not apologize for warning authors that they may not want to do business with Ridan. The fact is that at no point has Robin said she is doing anything to prevent this whole thing from happening again.

I would not consider a contract with Ridan. I suggest others think long and hard before doing so.


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Hazcat said:


> A gentle reminder: Mr. Ferguson is indicated as hailing from Australia. Under their legal system he may very well be correct. Of course, Ridan is a Commonwealth of Virginia, United States of America, company... And Kindleboards is similarly a U. S. entity. So our legal system applies.
> 
> I suspect he is not wrong, but out of context. MTCW.


I suggest you make that gentle reminder to Mr. Ferguson. He apparently assumes that the laws in Australia apply to the entire world. Not so.

All parties involved are in the US. In the US the applicable term is libel which applies to defamation by written or printed words or pictures. In the US, you must prove that the statement was false, _and_ that the statement caused harm,_ and _that the statement was made without adequate research into the truthfulness of the statement. 'Malicious intent' is not part of US law. In the US, truth is pretty much an absolute defence.

Is the fact that I don't care if advising authors not to do business with Ridan might harm her and under Australian law be in some kind of violation a problem to me? No. I don't care and it doesn't matter. Let me say that Ridan isn't the first publisher that I've said that about and probably won't be the last. Authors NEED to be warned about publishers who do this kind of thing. Having acted when the shaming started doesn't change the year of abusing the trust of her authors.

Mr. Ferguson just needs to get over it.


----------



## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

mathewferguson said:


> I meant "quick steps since the massive public shaming began". Isn't that what we're talking about?


:snerk: I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be rude, but I did literally do a little snerk-laugh there. I'm pretty sure that acting quickly once public shaming begins earns you ZERO brownie points.


----------



## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

When it comes to defamation and US law ( well the term US is terribly flawed anyway because defamation is a state issue), nearly every state hinges on malicipus intent when it comes to defamation of a public figure You can't have your cake and eat it too here. Either she is a public figure and malice plays a huge role or she isn't and the bar is low.

And Courtney if you are an attorney, you know that when it comes to arguing this


> There's a phrase in the first amendment lexicon for what you are doing: it's called a "chilling effect." You're trying to get people to be quiet, to stop speaking on a matter of what is clearly public interest, by issuing threats. I wish you wouldn't do that, but as we all know, the remedy for bad speech is more speech.


 there is a _lexicon_ called strawman also


----------



## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Someone said:


> When it comes to defamation and US law ( well the term US is terribly flawed anyway because defamation is a state issue), nearly every state hinges on malicipus intent when it comes to defamation of a public figure You can't have your cake and eat it too here. Either she is a public figure and malice plays a huge role or she isn't and the bar is low.
> 
> And Courtney if you are an attorney, you know that when it comes to arguing this there is a _lexicon_ called strawman also


Oh, get a life. She is a publisher (and a small one at that) not a movie star.  And in the case of celebrities, which Robin most certainly is not, the requirement of malice is IN ADDITION to the other factors not instead of them.

She screwed over authors for months and only made it right when she was publicly shamed on the internet. Making it right does not make her a heroine. It doesn't make her a good business person. All it shows is that she didn't like being shamed.


----------



## Kalen ODonnell (Nov 24, 2011)

mathewferguson said:


> Just because someone adds "IMO" to the front of a malicious lie does not make it less of a malicious lie.


Actually, that's exactly what it does. It very clearly, definitively states that what is being said is IN MY OPINION rather than the declaration of fact that is required to defame and be actionable. We're a very litigious society. We would have sued ourselves into oblivion by now if our judicial system actually made it that easy to do so. Its not that easy to bring a defamation suit to court, and even harder to make stick. Even harder when its being used as an obvious smokescreen to point the finger of blame away from a person's own wrongdoing, and that's exactly what's being done here. Anti-defamation laws were created to protect innocent parties from malicious slander, not to protect guilty ones from being held accountable for their actions.

And speaking of both defamation of character and the actions of guilty parties, since that seems to be your shtick....what's your stance on public disclosure of private facts? You know, that thing Robin FACTUALLY did in this very thread when she alluded to the amount Ann made in royalties, a highly unprofessional and ethically dubious move that violated Ann's reasonable right and expectation to financial privacy given that it was already made clear those royalties were Ann's sole source of income this past year? And that could potentially be construed as damaging to Ann, given that any person on this board can tell you that perception of how well a book or author is selling definitely factors into a reader's decision to take a chance on a book or author they haven't read before? Do you have any strong words or judgmental finger-wagging for Ms. Sullivan's little act of defamation earlier in this thread, or are those saved for those of us who haven't made contractual obligations we were unable to keep?

As for new poster 'someone', if you're paying attention, a straw man argument is what I just did with Mr. Ferguson there, where I created the illusion of refuting his point while in reality merely switching the argument onto a different track. What Courtney did was merely put a name to Mr. Ferguson's scare tactics for the benefit of any who can't already see through them.


----------



## Steve Silkin (Sep 15, 2010)

Courtney Milan said:


> Technically, this is not quite right, either. You can absolutely defame/libel a public figure. You'd have to prove, though, that the speaker acted with either knowledge of the falsity of the statement or with reckless indifference to the falsity of the statement.


Perhaps I should have said: statements about public figures are 'almost always' immune from libel suits. That precision aside, I'd be grateful to learn about any recent case of a public figure going to trial and verdict in a libel suit.


----------



## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

mathewferguson said:


> Of course the information should be out in the open. But when people on here write "we need to see the proof things have changed" and then completely and utterly decline to describe this imaginary level of "proof" it is very clear this isn't just informing the people but rather intent on destroying Ridan.
> 
> Even our court systems can clearly describe what form apology, recompense, reconcilliation, etc must take. People do it all the time e.g. "I expect you to apologise" etc.
> 
> Yet here on internet court, all these people are making vague statements about what must be done and then flaking on detail. They don't want to admit their true position: they want Robin to shut down Ridan and never show her face again.


I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, but the recent definition of what you are doing here, the "chilling effect" of trying to shame people into being quiet, is ironically having the opposite effect. It only brings more attention to the matter, and makes more people such as myself inclined to speak up.

Here's the thing Matthew,* it isn't enough to apologize*. Robin saying she's sorry, after being publicly shamed into it, and after nearly a year of bad behavior doesn't overcome that behavior. It doesn't give her a pass to start over. The damage is done.

It might be different, possibly, if Ridan was a larger company. In larger companies these types of things can be fixed, usually by firing the person responsible for the bad behavior and hiring a replacement.

At Ridan, there is no one else, it's just Robin.

Thus, *in my opinion*, the risk is simply too high for any author to seriously consider working with her. That's every author's decision to make on their own of course, but this thread is important to get the information out there, for consideration.

This is not personal, it's nothing against Robin personally. She's probably very nice and I actually learned a lot from her book on the industry and her blog.

However, the choice to engage with Ridan is strictly a business decision. Ridan runs its business poorly, and offers no advantage to the author. If Robin were to shut down that business, I bet it would be a huge weight off her shoulders.

The only way I could see Ridan ever recovering from this, would be if they hire a new staff, and even then it may be too little too late. You simply cannot conduct business in this manner.


----------



## Someone (Dec 30, 2011)

> Oh, get a life.


Really? My comment was only mentioning the "_anything said against a public figure is fair game_" assertion Courtney made. I mentioned it because many may think the assertion is legal truth since earlier in the thread she was identified as an attorney. I thought I would help authors out by correcting her false statement.

And you counter with a personal attack?

Geeze, what did I do besides suggest that accusations of 5 and 6 figure criminal theft is extreme, ultimately harmful to the discussion, and in all cases when it is not true can be considered defamation with malice? 
Were accusations of 5 to 6 figure theft, ie accusations of criminal nature, made? Yes. Were they made repeatedly? Yes. 
Nearly every state's defamation law has a special clause regarding statements which accuse people of criminal behavior. Such is an exception which invokes a very low bar for the accused to win a defamation claim. So when someone, who was identified as an attorney, pipes in and says these sort of statements are _fair game_, if your goal is truly to help the authors here, what I said needed to be said. 
What kind of person would I be if I let people think they had absolute defense for statements that they don't have? Statements whereas the defamation bar is incredibly low?

But you carry confusing _warning_ authors with attacking people who are asking people to consider and refrain from asserting falsehoods into the conversation that could get them into hot water. How you think that helps this I don't know. People are much better off when advised with the facts. Why they need to include and defend fact-less untrue hyperbole is beyond me.

Regardless of all that, yes malice is in addition to factors when it comes to a defamation public figure. However those factors have indisputably also occurred. And I never argued pubic figure status applied here, Courtney did. Facts be told, I do not think the public figure status is valid and believe the public figure argument status would fail. I flat out do not see public figure status here, but I know one's argument is always stronger when one argues the hardest case against their argument so that is what I argued with my purposeful inclusion of my _"public figure or no"_ statement. Hmm.. words matter and are there for a reason.

Look if you can not argue without unwarranted personal attacks....

Kalen
Strawman is inserting an argument one's opponent did not argue and then knocking it down to make it appear they have won an argument point when in fact they never actually argued the point their opponent did offer. So if you must attack me, please be factual correct when you do it. Courtney did just that - clear as day a strawman argument when taken in the context of the discussion. However that is not saying Mr. Ferguson's argument was not built on strawman or another other type of fallacy. I did not catch the explicit argument you are referring to and I don't feel like going back to it.

And Steve
Please protect yourself 
http://celebrity.ezinemark.com/famous-hollywood-defamation-cases-184a87894d5.html
These are just a few


----------



## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

Someone said:


> Really? My comment was only mentioning the "_anything said against a public figure is fair game_" assertion Courtney made. I mentioned it because many may think the assertion is legal truth since earlier in the thread she was identified as an attorney. I thought I would help authors out by correcting her false statement.


Yo. Go back and reread, because you deleted a word from my statement. What I actualy said "anything _true_ you say about her is fair game, and I think that even saying something demonstrably false would be shielded from harm." In my very next post, I explicitly stated the standard for when defamation against a public figure would occur.

I also said that in the case of false statements against a limited public figure, those statements have to be made with actual malice--which in the context of the first amendment means "made knowing they are false, or with reckless disregard for the truth." Since the people who are saying that they believe Robin is a thief do in fact believe that what she is doing is theft as a matter of morals--something that has been clear from the beginning--rather than an accusation of what would happen if she were tried in court, I also think that those statements would not be considered defamatory.

This is true for the same reason that it is not defamation when an author says, "If James is a book pirate, that makes him a thief." Technically, James-the-book-pirate is not a thief. He is, at best, a copyright infringer, and depending on the infringement, may not even be guilty of criminal acts. Yet everyone understands that the person is not saying, "This person could be criminally convicted of theft," but, "morally, this is a form of theft."

That's exactly what's happened here.

If you would like to point out the place where I altered someone else's argument for the purpose of scoring points, I'd be more than happy to listen. But telling me that I'm attacking a strawman, when you're deleting the relevant word from my argument, is probably not great strategy.


----------



## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Deep breaths, people.  I think you all need a time out.  

I'm going to lock the thread for now. . . I really do feel like all that needs to be said has been and it's veering pretty wildly off topic. . . . .will discuss in admin as to whether a re-opening is warranted.


----------

