# How to REALLY succeed as a full time author.



## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

It's been a long time since I actually started a thread here on KBoards. Over a year, I think. But, I just got the email from Written Word Media with the 2017 Author Survey, which I took part in, and wanted to share it. This report reinforces what I and many others have been saying all along, it takes more than just hard work. That's definitely a part of it, but there's more to the story. So y'all who are struggling as emerging authors (we were all there once) have a look at WWM's results.

My dad, Earl, was a 9th grade dropout. Not because he was dumb or anything, he was actually a pretty smart man. His father died of black lung when Dad was just 15, so he had to go to work to help support the family. Dad passed away when I was 21, but during those years, he provided me with many pearls of wisdom, some of them just plain old common sense.

One of those Earlisms was, "Look at what successful people are doing, and do that." So, when I started as an indie publisher in 2013, I did just that. Four years later, I'm earning mid-six figures and before this year is out, I'll move into the seven figure lifetime earning category.

So, don't just take my word. Check out what $100K+ authors are doing.
https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2017/06/07/100k-author/


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## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

Thanks, Wayne.


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## SBlake (Mar 23, 2017)

Hey, Wayne. Thanks for sharing this. There's already a big long thread about it here: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252168.0.html


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

D'oh! Guess I should have checked. Well, so much for my first thread in a year being enlightening.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> D'oh! Guess I should have checked. Well, so much for my first thread in a year being enlightening.


Well, that other thread has become a bit unwieldy though there is good information there. On the other side of the equation, a thread on when to call it quits could be interesting. How much time and effort should one really put in before making that call?


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## horst5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks, Wayne.
Very much appreciated.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Don't blame Wayne. I only got the email about that blog post yesterday, too.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Dpock said:


> Well, that other thread has become a bit unwieldy though there is good information there. On the other side of the equation, a thread on when to call it quits could be interesting. How much time and effort should one really put in before making that call?


0 sales on a release with a good cover, good blurb, good peek inside on Day 7.

LOL

At that point, you might question the niche, but still...


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Laran Mithras said:


> 0 sales on a release with a good cover, good blurb, good peek inside on Day 7.
> 
> LOL
> 
> At that point, you might question the niche, but still...


Ouch. Could we say fourteen days instead?

Fortunately, we can fiddle around with blurbs, covers, and categories, but talent can be a never-ending uphill battle and even with tons of it there are no guarantees.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Dpock said:


> Ouch. Could we say fourteen days instead?
> 
> Fortunately, we can fiddle around with blurbs, covers, and categories, but talent can be a never-ending uphill battle and even with tons of it there are no guarantees.


Twenty-three sales in ten weeks. That's how I did with my first release. That's a little depressing for the months it took to write. Had I checked sales, I might not have even written the second book. But, I didn't check until the second was ready to go. At that point, what's the sense in not publishing it, right? Then a funny thing happened. Both books sold over 100 each, in the last two weeks of 2013, following the release of the second book. And the third book in the series did even better. And the fourth. And the fifth. And.... well, you get the picture.


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## Jack.Hardin (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks for posting Wayne. You're my inspiration and your story and hard work is the reason I'm writing.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Dpock said:


> On the other side of the equation, a thread on when to call it quits could be interesting. How much time and effort should one really put in before making that call?


I'm at that stage myself. I know I have many strikes against me in terms of product: odd premise, character driven rather than plot driven, short novella compilations rather than novels. I do feel the it is well received by the few reviews I have, but they are not many to go on. I've already written the material, but the question is now whether to keep rolling it out or jump to something new.

It's not getting dead sales per se, maybe 1 or 2 per day average. But I'm probably spending as much on advertising as what I'm making. With 3 books out since May the total return thus far is around $500. I'm not sure if the books will ever make back the investment, which is around $3k and climbing with Ad investment.

There are also other signs that the series is not gaining and retaining readers. Very few organic reviews, no one really signing up to the mailing list. Sell through percentages also like seem low. Around 20% between book 1 and 2 and 50% between books 2 and 3.

Problem is, I don't know what is normal other than what people making 10k a month are selling. And compared to that, this series is DOA. But I don't know if things will get better with more releases or if I'm just throwing money down the drain. Are these results enough to keep going? Is it just a matter of finding that right audience or making the 1st one free to drive volume? Or will these results never change no matter how much is thrown at it, because it just isn't clicking naturally?


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Eugene Kirk said:


> It's not getting dead sales per se, maybe 1 or 2 per day average. But I'm probably spending as much on advertising as what I'm making. With 3 books out since May the total return thus far is around $500.


So you've spent $500 on advertising? What type?



> There are also other signs that the series is not gaining and retaining readers. Very few organic reviews, no one really signing up to the mailing list.


Did you use ARCs when you launched? I wonder if review activity is enhanced by readers seeing other reviews (from ARCs).


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Dpock said:


> So you've spent $500 on advertising? What type?
> 
> Did you use ARCs when you launched? I wonder if review activity is enhanced by readers seeing other reviews (from ARCs).


Done a bunch of promos, book barbarian, even genrecrave mega book blast. Tried AMS ads, but didn't see good returns there. Currently doing FB ads with good AD numbers but sales are still low.

Yes I used an ARC team, which is where most of my reviews come from currently.

I think I've done as much as I can marketing wise, but maybe the packaging/branding are just not appealing or its not setting the right expectations for what's inside. Or it could just be not compelling enough for people to invest in. I dunno. It's hard to tell when you don't even get negative comments to tell you what people are not liking. Open to feedback if people want to give it.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Done a bunch of promos, book barbarian, even genrecrave mega book blast. Tried AMS ads, but didn't see good returns there. Currently doing FB ads with good AD numbers but sales are still low.


Did genrecrave take the bulk of your ad budget? Just curious and there's no need to comment.

The Neon Amazon has a respectable rank - is it "sticky" there? That would indicate there's an audience for your writing.



> Yes I used an ARC team, which is where most of my reviews come from currently.


Do you ask for reviews from your list or in your end-matter or both?



> I think I've done as much as I can marketing wise, but maybe the packaging/branding are just not appealing or it's not setting the right expectations for what's inside. Or it could just be not compelling enough for people to invest in. I dunno. It's hard to tell when you don't even get negative comments to tell you what people are not liking. Open to feedback if people want to give it.


I don't know your genre so I hope others who do will speak up. I have zero earned authority on the subject but I suspect it's early to draw a final verdict.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Dpock said:


> Did genrecrave take the bulk of your ad budget? Just curious and there's no need to comment.
> 
> The Neon Amazon has a respectable rank - is it "sticky" there? That would indicate there's an audience for your writing.
> 
> ...


The GenreCRave was $400 and worth every penny in terms of performance. I think I got like 160 sales that day. But I don't think they were high value sales as there wasn't a lot of follow through after it. The rank is a bit low due to a $0.99 promo I think. It should go back to the 200k range once I set it back to $2.99 I think.

I've asked my list for reviews as recently as this weekend, which resulted in 4 more. I suspect true negative reviews will only come organically.

Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to more.


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## R.U. Writing (Jul 18, 2015)

Eugene Kirk said:


> The GenreCRave was $400 and worth every penny in terms of performance. I think I got like 160 sales that day. But I don't think they were high value sales as there wasn't a lot of follow through after it.


Not to derail the thread, but I feel it must be said: sadly, GenreCrave will give you sales (at a discount), but no readers. Because of the methods they are using, there's a long thread about the dangers of that particular service. I used it for the relaunch of one of my books and it was one of the reasons I am now starting over.

Despite getting a 100 "sales" GenreCrave's promo didn't translate to pages read, sign ups, follow-through, or fans. And this is a book that had performed well with other promos in the past. I felt embarrassed and frustrated at getting duped, not to mention the waste of all that money. I will NEVER use GenreCrave again and will be doing serious research before I book any services other than ENT, Bookbub, or BargainBooksy.

Sorry to be a downer here, but what's the point of spending hundreds of dollars for a loss if none of those people read your book?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> odd premise, character driven rather than plot driven, short novella compilations rather than novels


These things can be fixed, though there's nothing wrong with a character driven book in particular. I think your problem (if the writing is good, I didn't check) is finding your market. You won't do that with GenreCrave or similar services, as noted in another post.

You need longer books in many genres, so studying what's required is essential. As much as some people talk about short attention spans, readers still like longer better. I don't like it, because I like writing shorter myself, but it is what it is.

I think you'd best be served by writing something more market-focused if you want to build a base faster. The quirky, just a bit different or totally off the wall books can sell, and sell well, but it will take time and more marketing effort than just hitting the tropes more consistently.

Write another series, get it out as soon as you can. Right now, your sales look good, and you have good reviews. I'd set the first book permafree. According to the Smashwords survey just sent out, first in series at free sells better than paid first in series.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Eugene Kirk said:


> The GenreCRave was $400 and worth every penny in terms of performance. I think I got like 160 sales that day. But I don't think they were high value sales as there wasn't a lot of follow through after it. The rank is a bit low due to a $0.99 promo I think. It should go back to the 200k range once I set it back to $2.99 I think.
> 
> I've asked my list for reviews as recently as this weekend, which resulted in 4 more. I suspect true negative reviews will only come organically.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to more.


160 sales at .99 for a $400 promo is not good. At all. To put into perspective, I once paid ENT $35 for over 400 sales at .99. For a $400 promo, which is what Bookbub charges, you should see many more sales.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Twenty-three sales in ten weeks. That's how I did with my first release. That's a little depressing for the months it took to write. Had I checked sales, I might not have even written the second book. But, I didn't check until the second was ready to go. At that point, what's the sense in not publishing it, right? Then a funny thing happened. Both books sold over 100 each, in the last two weeks of 2013, following the release of the second book. And the third book in the series did even better. And the fourth. And the fifth. And.... well, you get the picture.


I think that's the biggest takeaway for 2017 and beyond . . . you aren't just starting off an author, but a publishing company. And who would start a publishing company with a single title and expect to make major payroll that year? Hardly anyone.  I remember my first month way back in 2011 and it was less than 30 sales that first month . . . BUT . . . it is my experience that if anyone figures out how to sell SOME books, and they keep learning and writing more, they will continue to sell SOME books and then grow into selling MORE books. People who come in and "debut" with hundreds of sales their first month fall into one of a few categories:

A) They aren't actually new, they are a new name. They've been doing this for years. (Remember it's the internet, I could say I'm really Cirque du Soleil acrobat and who would know if I'm lying or not?)

B) They have a mentor/experienced guide showing them the ropes. (This can be a double-edged sword, depending on who the mentor is).

C) They have experience in a strongly related field they ported over: app development, direct sales, B2b sales, SEO, wed development, journalism, multi-media, etc. etc. etc.

"Comparison is the thief of joy." So long as you have a small amount of success, you can build upon that.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

PamelaKelley said:


> 160 sales at .99 for a $400 promo is not good.


If you decided to spend $100 on advertising on a new release (it being the single book in the catalog) how would you spend it? Or - would you not bother until there was at least one more book in the catalog?

I'm thinking a free trial Instafreebie is the better way to go. Suggestions welcome.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Dpock said:


> If you decided to spend $100 on advertising on a new release (it being the single book in the catalog) how would you spend it? Or - would you not bother until there was at least one more book in the catalog?
> 
> I'm thinking a free trial Instafreebie is the better way to go. Suggestions welcome.


I woudl invest that money into my own domain and website so you have a springboard for everything. I see that you have a mailerlite link in your Amazon author bio but for readers it's easier to type something in like AshleyLordbooks.com etc. and then you have your link to your mailing list etc. You can also use a website to craft custom landing pages for when you do buy Facebook ads and Google Ads. Unless this is a throwaway pen name . .. then I wouldn't bother with a website.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

she-la-ti-da said:


> These things can be fixed, though there's nothing wrong with a character driven book in particular. I think your problem (if the writing is good, I didn't check) is finding your market. You won't do that with GenreCrave or similar services, as noted in another post.
> 
> You need longer books in many genres, so studying what's required is essential. As much as some people talk about short attention spans, readers still like longer better. I don't like it, because I like writing shorter myself, but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Those are all really good suggestions. Permafree will be my next marketing step. And my writing partner and I are indeed talking about doing a written to market series.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Eugene Kirk said:


> I'm at that stage myself. I know I have many strikes against me in terms of product: odd premise, character driven rather than plot driven, short novella compilations rather than novels.


Character driven is never a strike against your book. That is not one of the issues.
However, short compilations rather than a proper novel is indeed a strike against (in most genres). Imo, it is the #1 strike against yours by a large margin.
Covers are nice. ...well the cover of book 2 has a bit of a branding issue. Books 1 & 3, to judge from the covers, are clearly in the same series. Book 2 not so much, but still not bad.
Blurbs are pretty good. 
The look inside starts with a bang and looks well enough written that the mechanics shouldn't be an issue and it's up to the story to tell the tale in more ways than one. And while on the heels of my own, it's worth noting that it's possible that the tawdry double entendre of the part 1 title might put some off. But, then again, so what? I personally found it a little amusing (always in touch with my inner puer aeternus). 
I think it's down to the short compilations as your primary drag. Compilations of shorts that do quite well (like Pew Pew! and At the Helm currently) showcase multiple authors which is a significant difference.
Ceteris paribus, but with proper novels rather than short compilations, and I think you'd see far better rank/sales traction.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Patrick Urban said:


> Character driven is never a strike against your book. That is not one of the issues.
> However, short compilations rather than a proper novel is indeed a strike against (in most genres). Imo, it is the #1 strike against yours by a large margin.
> Covers are nice. ...well the cover of book 2 has a bit of a branding issue. Books 1 & 3, to judge from the covers, are clearly in the same series. Book 2 not so much, but still not bad.
> Blurbs are pretty good.
> ...


Thanks much for that feedback! I worried often what impact the compilations would have and considering what you have written, perhaps it's a greater negative impact than I first imagined. And yes, I thought about the double entendre as well , but it really is meant to be very tongue in cheek, much like the premise itself. My thanks again, you've really helped put some things into perspective.


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## WHDean (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks for posting this, Wayne. I missed it on the first go around. 

Still mulling over the results...


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> D'oh! Guess I should have checked. Well, so much for my first thread in a year being enlightening.


It still was...

ETA: Now that I read it back, that sounds snarky. I'm just trying to say that hearing your take on it was very enlightening for me...


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## The Bass Bagwhan (Mar 9, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> These things can be fixed, though there's nothing wrong with a character driven book in particular. I think your problem (if the writing is good, I didn't check) is finding your market. You won't do that with GenreCrave or similar services, as noted in another post.
> 
> You need longer books in many genres, so studying what's required is essential. As much as some people talk about short attention spans, readers still like longer better. I don't like it, because I like writing shorter myself, but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


This prompts a relevant question from me. If you decide, "okay, I'm going to study the market, pick what seems a popular genre that has longevity, write a full-length novel (first in a series) and do everything I possibly can right..." would you do this under a pen name? In other words, can your previous, poor track record possibly drag down your new release regardless of how many "boxes it ticks"? The alternative is, if the new release gains traction, it might kick-start your backlist. And that backlist might prove that you're capable of producing any subsequent books in the new series.
But yeah, it also shows not many people bought your books before. Is that a problem?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Rosalind got slammed for posting this same article... and Wayne has had a ton of Bookbubs (I remember when he was getting like one a month) and yet... no mention of that, people? I wonder why the double standard. What could it be that makes Wayne an inspiration for posting the same thing that Rosalind got called a liar for? Hmm... *eyeroll*

*note, I am not trying to take away from or bash Wayne's success by saying this. I'm pointing out the vast difference in how certain people are treated when they say essentially the same things. Wayne did what Rosalind did... wrote books his market wants to read and promoted them well. He's earned his success pretty much the same way she did.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

Graeme Hague said:


> This prompts a relevant question from me. If you decide, "okay, I'm going to study the market, pick what seems a popular genre that has longevity, write a full-length novel (first in a series) and do everything I possibly can right..." would you do this under a pen name?


I think in that situation, the worst case scenario is that people don't actually buy anything from your backlist. I'm not sure why a past history of failures would prejudice readers against you. Certainly there's a lot of success stories here who've struggled for years, then cracked the code and gone on to success with the same pen names.


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## daveconifer (Oct 20, 2009)

Annie B said:


> Rosalind got slammed for posting this same article... and Wayne has had a ton of Bookbubs (I remember when he was getting like one a month) and yet... no mention of that, people? I wonder why the double standard. What could it be that makes Wayne an inspiration for posting the same thing that Rosalind got called a liar for? Hmm... *eyeroll*
> 
> *note, I am not trying to take away from or bash Wayne's success by saying this. I'm pointing out the vast difference in how certain people are treated when they say essentially the same things. Wayne did what Rosalind did... wrote books his market wants to read and promoted them well. He's earned his success pretty much the same way she did.


I didn't know any of that happened. Speaking for myself, I'd have reacted (positively) the same way had Rosalind said what Wayne said...


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## MattHaggis (May 1, 2017)

Annie B said:


> Rosalind got slammed for posting this same article... and Wayne has had a ton of Bookbubs (I remember when he was getting like one a month) and yet... no mention of that, people? I wonder why the double standard. What could it be that makes Wayne an inspiration for posting the same thing that Rosalind got called a liar for? Hmm... *eyeroll*
> 
> *note, I am not trying to take away from or bash Wayne's success by saying this. I'm pointing out the vast difference in how certain people are treated when they say essentially the same things. Wayne did what Rosalind did... wrote books his market wants to read and promoted them well. He's earned his success pretty much the same way she did.


Did Rosalind mention the essential ingredient that shall not be named on KBoards? Talent.
Or is it because she's woman?


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## Norman Steele Taylor (Nov 26, 2015)

Great point, OP

Why reinvent the wheel?

Also, there are lots of software out there that make reverse engineering and audience preference AI modeling so much easier.

Take less shots in the dark and get more direct hits


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## PiscaPress (Jun 13, 2014)

“the vast majority of traditional publishing’s midlist-or-better earners started their careers more than a decade ago. Their more-recently debuted peers are not doing anywhere near as well. Fewer than 700 Big Five authors authors who debuted in the last 10 years are now earning $25,000 a year or more on Amazon — from all of their hardcover, paperback, audio and ebook editions combined. By contrast, over 1,600 indie authors are currently earning that much or more.” 

This. Carpe Diem, or wait around 3 years for an agent to maybe get you a contract that maybe makes you $10K.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

In regards to the Rosalind vs. Wayne argument:

I didn't even realize the links were the same. Why? Because I didn't go back to the other thread to double check, there's so many self-reported surveys these days (which is a problem in itself), I really didn't take the time to see if we were all talking about the same one.

As for was there a difference, for me there was. I've disagreed with BOTH Rosalind and Wayne here on Kboards many a time. Wayne once had a thread all about how the editing was the key and I was kind of a jerk but tried to be nice about it to say "Wait a minute, Bookbubs." At no time in THIS thread did Wayne say "just write a good book" or that he doesn't use marketing. He said he uses all of the techniques in that survey vs. saying "Well I don't do these and I'm a 100k author." In fact, he shared a parable about Earl about working harder than others and where he started when he first sold. 

For me, a staunch feminist, this had nothing to do with sex and my senior research was the Queen Bee syndrome, where women are harsher on other women than they are on men where it comes to performance evaluation. So, I am aware of that phenomenon as well. 

I literally read Wayne's funny parable about working hard, and how he sold 23 books his first month and added on that it's my personal observation if you sell ANYTHING, keep at it, you will keep selling and growing as  you grow the catalog. I've always advocated for the 500 readers model or slow, long game build. I have always been frustrated when big names want to say follow me because I make more money than you do without acknowledging how much of their success was not in their control. Or worse, tell newbies over and over just to write a good book, he or she never advertises, and that's because they don't have to, Amazon has picked up that slack already. That's been a sticking point for me with tons of authors on this board, not just Rosalind.


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## fallswriter (Sep 11, 2012)

Annie B said:


> *note, I am not trying to take away from or bash Wayne's success by saying this. I'm pointing out the vast difference in how certain people are treated when they say essentially the same things. Wayne did what Rosalind did... wrote books his market wants to read and promoted them well. He's earned his success pretty much the same way she did.


I don't think it's a gender thing or even a success thing. Having read through responses on both threads, I would postulate that it's a tone thing on how ideas are presented. But to move this off of one member vs. another, at least there are authors out there trying to pass on information to others. And that's a good thing to see here on KB.


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I think that's the biggest takeaway for 2017 and beyond . . . you aren't just starting off an author, but a publishing company. And who would start a publishing company with a single title and expect to make major payroll that year? Hardly anyone.  I remember my first month way back in 2011 and it was less than 30 sales that first month . . . BUT . . . it is my experience that if anyone figures out how to sell SOME books, and they keep learning and writing more, they will continue to sell SOME books and then grow into selling MORE books. People who come in and "debut" with hundreds of sales their first month fall into one of a few categories:
> 
> A) They aren't actually new, they are a new name. They've been doing this for years. (Remember it's the internet, I could say I'm really Cirque du Soleil acrobat and who would know if I'm lying or not?)
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Never surrender, never quit, never give up...

*My first book made $15 in it's first three months. *I know now that it's a dreadful result but I was thrilled! Someone somewhere was actually buying a copy (and hopefully reading it too).

Don't go in to it expecting instant success and you will be surprised and happy at every single sale. Those first few paltry sales were the best lift I've ever felt.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

A fair takeaway from that larger thread is, write books people want to read and get a few Bookbubs or equivalent level of promotion. Some authors may not be sure where to place the emphasis when relating their success, and of course, "luck" is difficult to pin down. But not timing. Apparently, there was a golden era in indie publishing, but that's just useless data going forward.

Those of us starting out are less interested in luck and timing and more interested the methods for getting a career going, hitting that first $1000 a month, even $500. If it can only be accomplished with endless promotion, we need to figure that out early on. It could very well mean people don't want to read the books we're currently writing. That's useful information if we're flexible. Or it could mean we don't really have the talent we think we do. That's useful to know too but it's a harder pill to swallow. We won't know in either case unless we get a lot of eyeballs on our work.

Starting out, what's the best way to get eyeballs when Bookbub is out of reach and the budget is limited? Wouldn't it be just getting up a few books published and using up your free days (if in KU)? If those downloads turn into reads, doesn't that answer the "talent" and "books people want to read" questions? I don't know. I'm asking. If the answers to both are affirmative, then promoting makes sense.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Dpock said:


> A fair takeaway from that larger thread is, write books people want to read and get a few Bookbubs or equivalent level of promotion. Some authors may not be sure where to place the emphasis when relating their success, and of course, "luck" is difficult to pin down. But not timing. Apparently, there was a golden era in indie publishing, but that's just useless data going forward.
> 
> Those of us starting out are less interested in luck and timing and more interested the methods for getting a career going, hitting that first $1000 a month, even $500. If it can only be accomplished with endless promotion, we need to figure that out early on. It could very well mean people don't want to read the books we're currently writing. That's useful information if we're flexible. Or it could mean we don't really have the talent we think we do. That's useful to know too but it's a harder pill to swallow. We won't know in either case unless we get a lot of eyeballs on our work.
> 
> Starting out, what's the best way to get eyeballs when Bookbub is out of reach and the budget is limited? Wouldn't it be just getting up a few books published and using up your free days (if in KU)? If those downloads turn into reads, doesn't that answer the "talent" and "books people want to read" questions? I don't know. I'm asking. If the answers to both are affirmative, then promoting makes sense.


There are some good threads on here already about this but if I was starting out now (which I am with a new pen name), I'd start with getting something - either a prequel, preview or whatever - up on Instafreebie and start building a mailing list. Then nurturing that list, getting people onto your ARC team etc. I've actually put back the launch date for my first pen name book so I can work more on listbuilding. Then, with the first release, promote the heck out of it on any decent promo site you can book. Having an ARC team already in place helps with that.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Back one more time because geez. Way to talk about me. Thanks so much.

it was in my control to write 500-600k a year. To cover my books well, blurb them well, and price them to market. To write books with mass appeal. To make hundreds of big and small decisions that are essential for success. To work seven days a week, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, including Christmas, even when I was making 50k a month. To try different things and take artistic risks and push myself relentlessly to write better, to create something new and different and appealing. To take CHANCES that paid off. To read my negative reviews and honestly face what hadn't worked well. To find my sweet spot where I could do my best work and find my audience.

Check out how many times I've shared. Check out my how to be hooky thread, my what worked for me thread, ny how to write a blurb thread, my contributions to the BookBub strategy thread--and got told I was "rewriting history" after all that. I said success at this came easily compared to other things in my life. It did. But only because the groundwork was there, because of the hours and hours I worked becoming a better, clearer, hookier writer before I ever wrote fiction. I've shared many times here that I held back my first three books, reworked them, and published them together, only to be told that doesn't work. Well yeah it does. It worked absolutely fantastic. So did using three free days and $15 of advertising after week one. That is the truth. Sorry if it p*ss es people off. Except I'm not.

If you really want to be p*ssed off, here's my blog post. Get Off the Churn Train. It might make you mad. It might make you think and forge your OWN path to greater success.

THERE ARE NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL ANSWERS. Another thing I've said over and over here. There are however best practices. Find the ones that work for you.

http://www.rosalindjames.com/romance-amazon-churn-and-stickiness-writing-books-that-last/


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> Back one more time because geez. Way to talk about me. Thanks so much.
> 
> it was in my control to write 500-600k a year. To cover my books well, blurb them well, and price them to market. To write books with mass appeal. To make hundreds of big and small decisions that are essential for success. To work seven days a week, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, even when I was making 50k a month. To try different things and take artistic risks and push myself relentlessly to write better, to create something new and different and appealing. To take CHANCES that paid off. To read my negative reviews and honestly face what hadn't worked well. To find my sweet spot where I could do my best work and find my audience.
> 
> ...


You go girl! Many of us think what you have to say is always well worth hearing


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> Back one more time because geez. Way to talk about me. Thanks so much.


This place would suffer greatly in your absence, Rosalind. Not all of us accept as normal the behavior of the few who dictated how you should or shouldn't post. We've got your back.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Rosalind got slammed for posting this same article... and Wayne has had a ton of Bookbubs (I remember when he was getting like one a month) and yet... no mention of that, people? I wonder why the double standard. What could it be that makes Wayne an inspiration for posting the same thing that Rosalind got called a liar for? Hmm... *eyeroll*
> 
> *note, I am not trying to take away from or bash Wayne's success by saying this. I'm pointing out the vast difference in how certain people are treated when they say essentially the same things. Wayne did what Rosalind did... wrote books his market wants to read and promoted them well. He's earned his success pretty much the same way she did.


That was one person slamming her over and over and a couple of people saying he had a point. That could happen to anyone in this forum. It usually does if you've been around and started enough threads. It wasn't like the entire thread was all about slamming Rosalind.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Back one more time because geez. Way to talk about me. Thanks so much.
> 
> it was in my control to write 500-600k a year. To cover my books well, blurb them well, and price them to market. To write books with mass appeal. To make hundreds of big and small decisions that are essential for success. To work seven days a week, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, including Christmas, even when I was making 50k a month. To try different things and take artistic risks and push myself relentlessly to write better, to create something new and different and appealing. To take CHANCES that paid off. To read my negative reviews and honestly face what hadn't worked well. To find my sweet spot where I could do my best work and find my audience.
> 
> ...


Um . . . AnnieB and MattHaggis charged that the other thread that also linked to the same survey you were treated poorly because you are a woman. So perhaps you might want to bring it up with them you'd like your name to not be invoked on threads you didn't even comment on.

I don't think Wayne started this thread as a dig at anyone, but he can speak for himself. I know I didn't realize at first it was the same link. I'm sure others didn't either. Kboards moves so fast, a thread only really has a life of 1-3 days before it dies into the ether.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Welcome back, Rosalind. 

Folks, we've been there and done that on the issues in the older thread. Let's not go out of our way to pick off the scabs. 

For me, the big take-away is that generosity in how we read one another's reflections and kindness of tone when we react to them are paramount. With the exception of no-go zones like religion and politics, there's really no point that can't be made here effectively, and without causing hurt, if it's made carefully and kindly.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

That's an excellent blog post, Rosalind. FWIW, I agree with every word of it.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

For other prawns like me, I'm going to advocate that it's best to read the posts written by all of the successful authors on this board. Wayne, Chris, Phoenix, Patty J., Rosalind, etc. are all heroes of mine. Read everything written by them (plus David G.). Then pick out a method that works best for you in your circumstances. Plus, try to be as polite as possible when responding to the advice that they have so generously posted (even when you disagree with them.) That's all.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

kathrynoh said:


> There are some good threads on here already about this but if I was starting out now


There's no argument there. Unfortunately, when you try to take it all in at the beginning to get the "big picture," you can lose sight of where it all begins. You need to figure out your genre and get a few books out there first, assuming you already have the writing skills, so that you have something to work with. That gives all the advice you're getting somewhere to stick.



> I'd start with getting something - either a prequel, preview or whatever - up on Instafreebie and start building a mailing list. Then nurturing that list, getting people onto your ARC team etc. I've actually put back the launch date for my first pen name book so I can work more on list building. Then, with the first release, promote the heck out of it on any decent promo site you can book. Having an ARC team already in place helps with that.


That's all a newbie really needs to get a grip on at first. All the rest is irrelevant until you're sure there's a good market for your books.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm going to reiterate what Becca said.  And add that at the first incivility, that member will be banned from this thread, at least.

Betsy
KB Admin


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

I appreciate everyone's advice on Kboards. Old Timers, Newbies, successful and unsuccessful...any genre. There's something I can take from each post, and if it doesn't apply to me or I cannot apply it to my situation, I just move along. 

One thing history has repeated here time and time again, and if we're not careful, we're doomed to keep doing it. If we are negative to the posts/advice of the top-sellers who come here, they WILL go away. Soon it will be Just Another Writer's Forum without any substance or seasoned writers who have managed to do things right. Keep in mind the person posting may not KNOW exactly what the key ingredient to their success is. It's still helpful for to see the big picture and try to mine the gold nuggets out of their strategy/experiences.

That doesn't mean you cannot _question_ the advice/strategy/history; but there's a way to do that with professional curiosity and politeness that will not discourage the poster, but rather encourage discussion.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

I just think that it's really cool that people who have worked hard, achieved success, and surely have better things to do with their time make so much of an effort to help us little prawny prawns. I hope I'm as generous and patient as y'all are when I get there


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Evenstar said:


> Never surrender, never quit, never give up...
> 
> *My first book made $15 in it's first three months. *I know now that it's a dreadful result but I was thrilled! Someone somewhere was actually buying a copy (and hopefully reading it too).
> 
> Don't go in to it expecting instant success and you will be surprised and happy at every single sale. Those first few paltry sales were the best lift I've ever felt.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't even think my first book has made $10 and it's been out for 6 nearly 7 months. But the ones following it have made money enough to buy a website for them. Cool huh? I started off with super high expectations and quickly saw the need to tone it down. My only expectations now have to do with what I can do for my readers. Long term means I have to go at this steadily.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this, Wayne. I needed some encouragement today.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Thank you for posting this.


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## Nicksm28 (May 16, 2016)

Thank you for the post!


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## MacMcAdams (Dec 25, 2014)

I am grateful for Wayne, Rosiland and E.A. West's posts and know that their openness has been a great help to many of us. Many thanks.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Dpock said:


> A fair takeaway from that larger thread is, write books people want to read and get a few Bookbubs or equivalent level of promotion. Some authors may not be sure where to place the emphasis when relating their success, and of course, "luck" is difficult to pin down. But not timing. Apparently, there was a golden era in indie publishing, but that's just useless data going forward.
> 
> Those of us starting out are less interested in luck and timing and more interested the methods for getting a career going, hitting that first $1000 a month, even $500. If it can only be accomplished with endless promotion, we need to figure that out early on. It could very well mean people don't want to read the books we're currently writing. That's useful information if we're flexible. Or it could mean we don't really have the talent we think we do. That's useful to know too but it's a harder pill to swallow. We won't know in either case unless we get a lot of eyeballs on our work.
> 
> Starting out, what's the best way to get eyeballs when Bookbub is out of reach and the budget is limited? Wouldn't it be just getting up a few books published and using up your free days (if in KU)? If those downloads turn into reads, doesn't that answer the "talent" and "books people want to read" questions? I don't know. I'm asking. If the answers to both are affirmative, then promoting makes sense.


Oh, I feel for you! You're getting into the deep end of the pool - romance is a tough market. I know, I was there. I really don't have many answers for you, as far as advice about how to get traction, I just wanted to give you a little pep talk, and tell you how I made romance work for me. For a little while, anyhow.

What I did was write a bunch of series, and make the first book for each series a permafree. But, full disclosure, I did get a few BookBubs along the way. I got three BookBubs for "Beautiful Illusions" and two for "Broken." All of the BookBubs were crazy-successful. So, I don't know if I could have sold as many as I did without them. That said, I *think* that permafree + writing in a series is still an okay strategy for romance. As I said, I really don't know, because I got out of romance and haven't published in that genre for over a year.

I also wanted to tell you that, just because you aren't yet a top seller, don't lose hope about your talent. You're in a tough genre. You might not sell well at first, but that's just because you're swimming upstream. That's just the reality. Keep your head down, write in a series if you feel that you can, have a loss leader, line up some ads for the loss leader (I still like Freebooksy and Robin Reads), see if there's decent sell-through to Book Two, and if there is, keep on going. If not, maybe it's back to the drawing board. But if you stick with it, maybe write to market, and are willing to learn, you can make it work.

Good luck!


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Dpock said:


> If you decided to spend $100 on advertising on a new release (it being the single book in the catalog) how would you spend it? Or - would you not bother until there was at least one more book in the catalog?
> 
> I'm thinking a free trial Instafreebie is the better way to go. Suggestions welcome.


If it was my only book, I'd line up reviewers ahead of time so I could get at least a dozen or so reviews ASAP, and I'd try for a spot with ENT and/or Robin Reads if the book is launching at .99. If it's at a higher price point, I'd put that $100 into FB and AMS ads. Also, a free Instafreebie ahead of time to get an excerpt out and get into some group promos to start building a list you can email on release day.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

BWFoster78 said:


> I just think that it's really cool that people who have worked hard, achieved success, and surely have better things to do with their time make so much of an effort to help us little prawny prawns. I hope I'm as generous and patient as y'all are when I get there


I don't get online like I used to, as is evident by my absence in this thread. I got the email the day I started the thread, and after reading the content, thought it relevant enough to share. My apologies if it opened any wounds, it wasn't my intent. As is often the case, the new news I got was old news here. I mistakenly didn't think to look to see if it was being discussed and completely overlooked the date on the article.

Yes, BookBub has been very good to me. But, a BookBub spike today is a small speed bump compared to a new release. Still effective, but not as necessary as it once was. Truth be told, my first full month with two books published was January, 2014, a $2600 month. My first BookBub ad was the last week in April,2014. I released my third book in early April. That was a $5600 month. The BookBub tail through May boosted me to to over $6K. So, obviously it wasn't just BookBub. Heck, I didn't even find this forum or know what a BookBub was until just before that third release. I'd been stumbling blind, but hitting the right bumpers, just the same.

Only after finding KBoards did I begin to think it was possible to make a living at this. So, I developed a plan, set goals, and worked hard. I quit my job early, halfway through May, 2014, and haven't looked back since. This year, some time around my birthday in November, I'll pass $1M in book earnings and 2017 will be a $400K year.

What's it take to REALLY succeed? All of the above comments and more. Roll it all together, pick out the bones of discontent, and find what works for you.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Only after finding KBoards did I begin to think it was possible to make a living at this. So, I developed a plan, set goals, and worked hard. I quit my job early, halfway through May, 2014, and haven't looked back since. This year, some time around my birthday in November, I'll pass $1M in book earnings and 2017 will be a $400K year.


Good for you, Wanye. I don't know you at all but you've always given me the impression that you're a really decent guy and I'm glad you're having such great success.



> What's it take to REALLY succeed? All of the above comments and more. Roll it all together, pick out the bones of discontent, and find what works for you.


For what it's worth, I can understand the frustration newbies have with the big success stories _to a degree_, because most newbies are willing to work hard but they want a clear path to success. But IMO, that path just doesn't exist, and its pointless getting frustrated about it (Rosalind said earlier one size doesn't fit all). Every success story has something to take away from it, regardless of the perceived degree of luck involved.

I, for one, really like hearing from the big earners, but I don't pretend that they're able to lay out a perfect plan that I can replicate. What they can do is give their best advice, and I would say following that advice would put most authors in the most likely position to succeed. But it doesn't guarantee anything. That's the risk we all take when we decided to get into indie publishing. And even if they're unable to give me an exact path to success, success would be even more unlikely without their input.

TLR - what Wayne said.


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## TStraker (Apr 20, 2017)

Bookmarking  

Thanks Wayne! 

TS


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

RightHoJeeves said:


> Every success story has something to take away from it, regardless of the perceived degree of luck involved.


There is certainly a degree of luck in every success. I started getting BookBub ads pretty regularly through the last half of 2014 and into 2015 (five ads in the last eight months of 2014 and five more in the first five months of 2015) and made a few really big mistakes in setting up other ads with BookBub. But fortune smiled on those perceived mistakes. I'd accidentally set up a whole bunch of ads _before_ BookBub, instead of after. That was August 1st, 2014, with the newly released prequel, Fallen Out. August became my best month and the $23K record stood for more than a year. A good portion of that was the dumb luck of writing a prequel to a moderately established series of three books. I'd only been writing for just over a year and only ten months since I first published. But, I'd accidentally found that stacking ads in front of BookBub, rather than after it, had a pretty profound effect on ranking, which in turn, sold a ton more books. I replicated it two months later with the next BookBub. People thought it was nuts. But it worked. Not quite as well as the ad on the prequel, but a $17K month, nonetheless.

Luck, and learning from your mistakes.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

BVLawson said:


> Wayne, I am awed by your success and hard word - congrats all around! And thanks for all your insights on Kboards.
> 
> I do have one question, if you don't mind me asking, that I couldn't find you'd answered anywhere else: were your Bookbubs always first in a series or were you able to get them on the second and third books (and so on) in a series? Or just the first and bundles? I had good luck on a permafree but am concerned about trying for later installments - or to just wait for a bundle deal. I only have the one series so far, so I don't have a lot of room for experimentation.
> 
> Anyway, carry on and cheers!


First in series will perform better, no doubt about it. But, later books do quite well with BookBub, too. Particularly, if you discount the first book in the series on the same day. BookBub has accepted books 1-6 of the ten in my first series, plus the three volume box set. The first book has been in BB five times and the second book was accepted three times. All with very little in the way of diminished results. When the sixth book ran, it sold 1463 copies and book one sold 228, both at $.99. For the previous five days they'd averaged 50 and 13, respectively. Sell down and sell through continued for weeks.

The added benefit is you don't have to wait a month to resubmit, if you use later books. My last BookBub came after seven months of being rejected four times a month.


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## Norman Steele Taylor (Nov 26, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> Never surrender, never quit, never give up...
> 
> *My first book made $15 in it's first three months. *I know now that it's a dreadful result but I was thrilled! Someone somewhere was actually buying a copy (and hopefully reading it too).
> 
> Don't go in to it expecting instant success and you will be surprised and happy at every single sale. Those first few paltry sales were the best lift I've ever felt.


Thank you! Indeed, the only way to fail is to QUIT. If you're not quitting, you're not failing. Learn, bounce back up and keep learning.


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## skywalker (Apr 21, 2017)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> It's been a long time since I actually started a thread here on KBoards. Over a year, I think. But, I just got the email from Written Word Media with the 2017 Author Survey, which I took part in, and wanted to share it. This report reinforces what I and many others have been saying all along, it takes more than just hard work. That's definitely a part of it, but there's more to the story. So y'all who are struggling as emerging authors (we were all there once) have a look at WWM's results.
> 
> My dad, Earl, was a 9th grade dropout. Not because he was dumb or anything, he was actually a pretty smart man. His father died of black lung when Dad was just 15, so he had to go to work to help support the family. Dad passed away when I was 21, but during those years, he provided me with many pearls of wisdom, some of them just plain old common sense.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing, this is excellent!


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## Norman Steele Taylor (Nov 26, 2015)

It also helps to have a self-reinforcing promotional strategy. Sadly, this is the one key part of the whole Kindle publishing game newbies are forced to learn the hard way.


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## going going gone (Jun 4, 2013)

It's always useful when you start a thread, Wayne, because you're a success story and your dad had a good point!


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## hopecartercan (Jun 19, 2015)

cadle-sparks said:


> It's always useful when you start a thread, Wayne, because you're a success story and your dad had a good point!


I agree. I love it when Wayne chimes in. He always has good points/advice.


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