# Scrivener vs Jutoh for compiling your books



## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

So I write in Scrivener, but I've never really used their mobi or epub compile before. I always formatted it myself, but now I'm considering a change. A quick test shows a pretty serviceable mobi file on my kindle, but that was without any kind of formatting, or casting any sort of real critical eye over it. What are people's experiences using the kindlegen function? Note, I'm running the Windows version, if that makes any difference.

And on a slight tangent, I've noticed people recommending Jutoh recently. I'd obviously rather not fork out another $40 if Scriv will do it fine, but if the experience is notably more efficient or painless then I'd perhaps be convinced.

Thanks!


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

My formatting using Scriv on PC for mobi, epub, html, and pdf is flawless. I use KindleGen by pointing Scriv to it. Test your mobi in Kindle Previewer. Do not neglect the metadata area in the compile function window.

Edited to add: You can feel free to look at the Look Inside in my sig for an example.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Victoria Champion said:


> My formatting using Scriv on PC for mobi, epub, html, and pdf is flawless. I use KindleGen by pointing Scriv to it. Test your mobi in Kindle Previewer. Do not neglect the metadata area in the compile function window.
> 
> Edited to add: You can feel free to look at the Look Inside in my sig for an example.


 I looked inside and I like what I saw! I use Scrivener to write my books, but when it came to compiling, I just didn't feel comfortable with it, so I outsourced it. Did you send your manuscript to your editor as a Word doc? That where I got hesitant. The importing the word doc from my editor back into Scrivener to then compile for mobi.

I also tried Jutoh trial download and I didn't like it. Scrivener was a lot easier to use than Jutoh. So my vote would be for Scrivener. Shorter learning curve since you're already familiar with Scrivener.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

What Victoria said. I've only used Scrivener to make my files. Just be wary that with Windows (which is what I also have) there always seems to be some bug popping up. They just fixed the double space separator bug, and now there's one that makes page breaks double into blank pages when compiled. You have to fix this in something like Sigil first, but it's a quick thirty second fix.

If you already have Scrivener, I don't see a reason now to use it for compiling. Formatting my ebooks takes 3 min because of it.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Hildred said:


> What Victoria said. I've only used Scrivener to make my files. Just be wary that with Windows (which is what I also have) there always seems to be some bug popping up. They just fixed the double space separator bug, and now there's one that makes page breaks double into blank pages when compiled. You have to fix this in something like Sigil first, but it's a quick thirty second fix.
> 
> If you already have Scrivener, I don't see a reason now to use it for compiling. Formatting my ebooks takes 3 min because of it.


I don't have this bug (never did)? Do you have the latest version?


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

Victoria Champion said:


> I don't have this bug (never did)? Do you have the latest version?


Yes. In fact, it came with the latest version. It's a long known Scrivener bug but I never got it until the latest version. Scrivener's stance atm seems to be "Oh, yeah. that happens. Just use Sigil to take that line of code out~"


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> I looked inside and I like what I saw! I use Scrivener to write my books, but when it came to compiling, I just didn't feel comfortable with it, so I outsourced it. Did you send your manuscript to your editor as a Word doc? That where I got hesitant. The importing the word doc from my editor back into Scrivener to then compile for mobi.


Thanks, Alan. I didn't have an editor for the book in my sig. It was my first and it's a couple of short stories so I didn't feel I would make back the expense on it. I had a beta reader, and self-edited meticulously. I did send a word file (you can output from Scriv as word) to an editor but that was for a different story being included in an anthology. I didn't have to make any corrections to it but one word, and she fixed that on her end and so I never received a return manuscript.

However, it is super easy to format using tools in Scriv that affect the entire manuscript. I think what is of concern regarding word to scriv is substituting paragraph breaks for line breaks. That can be a pain if you need to do that. I have to do that when compiling epubs for PubIt and Kobo (add line breaks) because they force their own formatting on my epubs. Annoying! Other than those two vendors, my epubs use paragraph breaks, like my mobis.

Basically, I had to learn to compile, which is not as hard at it appears at first, and once you get the hang of it, it's just like an assembly line.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Hildred said:


> Yes. In fact, it came with the latest version. It's a long known Scrivener bug but I never got it until the latest version. Scrivener's stance atm seems to be "Oh, yeah. that happens. Just use Sigil to take that line of code out~"


Strange, that doesn't happen to me. I test all compiled files before submission to vendors. Maybe it has to do with where the page break function is initiated in the program. Mine is in the compile window.


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## Hildred (Sep 9, 2012)

Victoria Champion said:


> Strange, that doesn't happen to me. I test all compiled files before submission to vendors. Maybe it has to do with where the page break function is initiated in the program. Mine is in the compile window.


I don't know, but most of their bugs seem to pick and choose who they affect, and to a point what version. This one is a lot more benign than the link break bug though. At least this one it only takes thirty seconds to fix in sigil.

Also, for Alan's sake, I feel I should say that I only use Scrivener for compiling. I do all my writing in Word and send that file to my editor. So I have no idea about the conversion process there.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Hildred said:


> I don't know, but most of their bugs seem to pick and choose who they affect, and to a point what version. This one is a lot more benign than the link break bug though. At least this one it only takes thirty seconds to fix in sigil.
> 
> Also, for Alan's sake, I feel I should say that I only use Scrivener for compiling. I do all my writing in Word and send that file to my editor. So I have no idea about the conversion process there.


Interesting, thanks for sharing. You too, Victoria. I'll give the compiling for mobi a harder try. It's especially nice when I need to make changes after initial publishing, that way I don't have to pay someone every time to have it re-formatted. I compile my manuscript from Scrivener to a word doc using the "standard manuscript" setting. Works out very nicely... from then on that's what I use with my editor and proofreaders.


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## Gina Black (Mar 15, 2011)

I used the Scrivener (Mac version) mobi and epub files for my book without any problem EXCEPT that the preview at B&N was a mess--centered, large font, etc. The actual book file (epub) was fine.

Finally, I learned how to look inside and there were 11 separate CSS files created for that book and different chapters were calling for different CSS files. Apparently the preview at B&N was evoking the *wrong* CSS file for those chapters. At any rate, I cleaned all that up and it's fine now.

The only thing I can think of is that might have happened with that book because of how I imported it in from Word, although I really have no idea and don't remember that clearly because it was a long time ago. 

I'm going to give it another try with my current book that I started in Scrivener. I won't upload it without looking "under the covers" and making sure it's clean. BTW, I use Sigil to do that.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

I use Scrivener for everything. Love it.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

I took some screenshots of the compile window and 2 of the options/editor window.

Some hints:
Table of Contents will be auto-generated based on Titles of documents in Draft on left in main Scrivener window.
My paragraphs are indented .25 for first line (set using top arrow on ruler). My editor margins are 20 points (set in editor window).

https://plus.google.com/photos/108155601641892969907/albums/5857620678329675393?authkey=CPqXtPu1g8nVfQ


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

I use Scrivener for Windows. I compile to EPUB, then edit in Sigil to un-indent the first line of every scene. That function is in the Mac version, but hasn't made it across to Windows yet. Then I use Kindle Previewer to create a MOBI from my edited EPUB, because it's a PITA editing MOBI files directly.

Never heard of Jutoh


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## sgroyle (Aug 21, 2010)

I'll be the lone voice for Jutoh; I don't use Scrivener, I write in MS Word and then format for ePub and mobi using Jutoh. Been using Jutoh since 2010. There is a (very) small learning curve but once you've set up and saved off the styles you prefer, using Jutoh is simple, quick and you get flawless formats in nice clean code.


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Dan Harris said:


> I use Scrivener for Windows. I compile to EPUB, then edit in Sigil to un-indent the first line of every scene. That function is in the Mac version, but hasn't made it across to Windows yet. Then I use Kindle Previewer to create a MOBI from my edited EPUB, because it's a PITA editing MOBI files directly.
> 
> Never heard of Jutoh


You can just select first word of paragraph in new scene and then drag the top arrow on the ruler all the way to left. Then for next paragraph, put the arrow back where it goes.

How is compiling a mobi any different from an epub? All you need is to have kindlegen on your comp and point Scriv to it. Then select mobi in the drop down. Kindle Previewer doesn't generate mobi files on its own. Are you trying to edit the compiled mobi? I just overwrite the old one with a new compile.


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## Andykay (May 10, 2012)

Alright, guess I'll format my new work in Scriv and see what it spits out. Thanks all!


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

Victoria Champion said:


> You can just select first word of paragraph in new scene and then drag the top arrow on the ruler all the way to left. Then for next paragraph, put the arrow back where it goes.


Um... I think you're talking about Word, not Scrivener?



Victoria Champion said:


> How is compiling a mobi any different from an epub? All you need is to have kindlegen on your comp and point Scriv to it. Then select mobi in the drop down. Kindle Previewer doesn't generate mobi files on its own. Are you trying to edit the compiled mobi? I just overwrite the old one with a new compile.


Sure, I know how to compile direct to MOBI. But as I need to edit the compiled file to fix the first-line-indent, which is much easier to do for an EPUB than a MOBI, I use Kindle Previewer as a quick EPUB->MOBI converter.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

> Um... I think you're talking about Word, not Scrivener?


Works the same in Scriv. For the Windows version, do the formatting in the editor rather than compiler and you can do exactly this. Works fine.

The bug with double page breaks and their rather cavalier attitude towards fixing it notwithstanding.


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## Dan Harris (May 18, 2012)

Katie Elle said:


> Works the same in Scriv. For the Windows version, do the formatting in the editor rather than compiler and you can do exactly this. Works fine.
> 
> The bug with double page breaks and their rather cavalier attitude towards fixing it notwithstanding.


Oh, I see. And format every document 'As-is' you mean.


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## Speaker-To-Animals (Feb 21, 2012)

Dan Harris said:


> Oh, I see. And format every document 'As-is' you mean.


It's the best workaround. It is really frustrating that a few little checkboxes in the compile could avoid the whole thing, particularly given that they put a lot of work into ebook compile for the 1.5 version.

There is still the problem with the extra blank pages though.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Sorry for hijacking the Scrivener vs Jutoh, but seems a lot of Scrivener to Kindle compilers are here.  

When you guys make small tweaks, maybe a typo has been brought to your attention, what's your process? 

Do you go off the Mobi file or the original document? I ask because, I have the Mobi file which I had formatted and looks great on Kindle, iPad, etc. and I want to make minor changes (add a "coming soon" page in the back matter for my upcoming book) so I was going to take the Mobi file (since it's the latest updated version of my book), turn it into an RTF or Word Doc with Calibre in order to import it back into Scrivener to make the changes there, then compile it into a Mobi file for Kindle from Scrivener. Is that too convoluted?

I'm on Scrivener on a Mac. Thanks!


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## Victoria Champion (Jun 6, 2012)

Alan Petersen said:


> Sorry for hijacking the Scrivener vs Jutoh, but seems a lot of Scrivener to Kindle compilers are here.
> 
> When you guys make small tweaks, maybe a typo has been brought to your attention, what's your process?
> 
> ...


I sometimes write in Google Docs and I copy/paste into a new Scriv project file. It saves the formatting. I believe Docs uses rtf.


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## 9thChapter (May 6, 2013)

Am a first time e-publisher and use Scrivener to write on my Mac. I've downloaded KindleGen and pointed Scrivener to it.  I've also updated the latest version of Calibre (although I'm not certain how this fits in with Scrivener).

I don't mean to ask a naive question, but is it really that simple?  'Convert' through Scrivener to Kindle/Mobi format (which creates a folder on my mac with various files in it) and then that folder is ready for Amazon KDP?

Can someone point me in the right direction or correct my thinking on this?  I want to do it right the first time and am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to the look and feel of my work - as I'm sure we all are 

Thanks!

Darren
@9thChapter (Twitter)


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks for those screenshots, Victoria. They're very helpful.


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I use scriv for windows now. Compile to epub and upload to all vendors including kdp. They convert it flawlessly. I used to make mobi files with calbre but no longer see the need.


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## 10105 (Feb 16, 2010)

Scrivener's epub files are compact and efficient. They could be more so, but what they have is acceptable. And if you can work with css and html, you can tweak such things as 1st paragraph indent and simulated drop caps either manually or with Sigil. You don't get that kind of to-the-metal access with .mobi files, so I use kindlegen to port the tweaked epub to mobi.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

9thChapter said:


> Am a first time e-publisher and use Scrivener to write on my Mac. I've downloaded KindleGen and pointed Scrivener to it. I've also updated the latest version of Calibre (although I'm not certain how this fits in with Scrivener).
> 
> I don't mean to ask a naive question, but is it really that simple? 'Convert' through Scrivener to Kindle/Mobi format (which creates a folder on my mac with various files in it) and then that folder is ready for Amazon KDP?
> 
> ...


It's that simple for me. And trust me, I'm terrible with this kind of stuff. But Scrivener (for Mac) has been awesome. Before Scrivener, I spent a ton of time and energy getting the formatting for the book in my sig to be simple but perfect. Then I bought a Mac and Scrivener. I spent a few minutes goggling tutorials and then another few minutes adding bells and whistles - no indent first lines, and an inserted graphic before each chapter&#8230; looks great now.

Also, I write on scrivener and when I want to read over my work at night, I can make a perfect ebook to read on my iPad or Kindle,literally in seconds. Getting used to working in scrivener has a bit of a learning curve, but it been very worth it to me.

Also, techn-ignorant as I am, I don't use any of the additional programs being mentioned here (except KenGen, but Scrivener incorporates that itself). I'm not sure what they are needed for.


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## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

I use Scrivener to compile to epub format and open in Sigil. I'll do a final proof and three validations and run through KindleGen for mobi upload. Foolproof system, however, I only use paragraph spacing and not hard line breaks.


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## Stephen T. Harper (Dec 20, 2010)

Mark Philipson said:


> I use Scrivener to compile to epub format and open in Sigil. I'll do a final proof and three validations and run through KindleGen for mobi upload. Foolproof system, however, I only use paragraph spacing and not hard line breaks.


I'm curious - to Mark or anyone else who uses multiple programs - what does that do for you? Or what is that Scrivener


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## Mark Philipson (Mar 9, 2013)

Stephen T. Harper said:


> I'm curious - to Mark or anyone else who uses multiple programs - what does that do for you? Or what is that Scrivener


Sigil allows me to make minor edits. It seems like when I run the epub through KindleGen command line window the resulting Kindle file has a smaller deliverable size. $00.01 per 154 kb on amazon.com the last time I looked.


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