# Making a living... Everyone is different



## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I felt kind of depressed after reading about the 100k authors thread, even though usually I love those threads. So I wanted to write a pick-me-up thread to inspire the people who come in the middle of those two groups.

Making a living means something different to everyone, and I need to remind myself constantly that I AM a success (so long as I don't spend too much time comparing myself to others, lol)

I started in 2013 when I got made redundant. I was also on Mat Leave, so I had a little breathing space (if you don't count the demands of a new baby).

By 2014 I had five (short) books out and I was making the same amount each month as I would have if I returned to my job part time (which was my original plan).

I _still _make that much (give or take). Even though I now have 20 books.

That sometimes depresses me, I have to keep going just to make the same amount each month as I did three years ago. But here's the thing, I'm still providing the same income to my family as if I had gone back to my (fairly well paid) job. It would only ever have been part time because since then I've had another baby too. *So I'm still able to be with my children and make a decent part time salary as an author. * That's a success story isn't it?

My point is, that you don't have to be a major earner to consider yourself a success. If you can make an income equal to what you would get in your regular job (which is _very_ different depending on location and profession etc), then I think you should consider yourself a huge success as an author. It's better than most people manage who want to "be a writer" for their job.

And even if your earnings only help out with paying for petrol, or covering your craft hobby expenses, it is still worthy of a huge round of applause and kudos on your achievement. Hugs all round.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm a niche writer under this name. My real name is fantasy and romance - totally over-saturated and making almost no sales.

This name? I can make a living writing this stuff, though the base for the niche is small.

Somehow, I need to find another niche to piggyback my penname.   Vampire Bad-girl Billionaire Purple Biker Sluts from Venus?


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Hugely well said!

I sell bog all, but I have no real intention to quit my day job in any case. I take heart mostly from the fact that my books are generally very well-received. When people talk of five figure months and buying houses with their writing proceeds, I can't pretend I'm not envious occasionally (I rent a small 2 bed flat over a curry house), but at the end of the day I'm more interested in critical success than a commercial pedigree.

So I've got seven books out and I barely scrape $20 in royalties most months (the cash goes straight in our savings account). I also get occasional emails from some of the world's greatest living writers saying they like my stuff. For now, that really is better than enough.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

alawston said:


> I can't pretend I'm not envious occasionally (I rent a small 2 bed flat over a curry house), but at the end of the day I'm more interested in critical success than a commercial pedigree.


Now, I'm envious. We don't have a decent curry house for over a mile.


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## LittleFox (Jan 3, 2015)

Thanks Evenstar for this. It can be easy to get a bit depressed when you see people knocking it out of the park. 

I don't earn a fortune, and I am a full-time author for personal reasons. No, I'm not buying houses or eating at high-end restaurants, but I work from home with my husband. I can work in a way that's best for both my and my husband's health, which is important. The sales are growing steadily and we're doing ok. Sometimes it's frustrating seeing people talking about high earnings and huge advertising budgets, but the freedom to do what I need to look after myself and my husband is far more important.


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## Victoria LK (Jan 31, 2014)

Oh, thank you for this post! I was getting worried that I was a total loser because some months I don't even get past that $100 mark! 
This especially rings true, because I FINALLY got my husband to take my writing seriously. We now have goals to work towards so that we can (someday) retire and sell our landscape business. But when I hear about some writers that have done this in 3-4 years, I despair. It throws me into a bit of a tizzy and I stare at the screen, reading these success stories and comparing my sales, not able to move past the vast differences. Goals are great, but you have to know how and where to start-I'm still trying to figure this out.
So thanks, Evenstar!


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

It's awesome that it is doable to make 100k as an indie. I hope I get there! But the faint vibe of 100k a year (or sometimes, 5 figures a month) being the marker of success...? The average personal income in the US is something like 35k a year. If you can make that WRITING, or any creative profession that you actually love, you're killing it at life, I'd say. I'm not saying you should not aspire to 100k, but certainly don't beat yourself up for making way less. So far my experience has been kind of like Evenstar's...I've had some books that did well, but by the time I got out another book that did well, the first book was no longer making all that much, and I've never had really excellent sell through rates, so I end up about where I started...I wish it was different, but, I'm not going to waste time beating myself up over it. I make a living. That's cool with me.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

I started writing as kind of a lark, with no expectation that I would ever sell very much. $60-200 dollar months were the norm, and I sold a bit over a thousand dollars each of my first three years while publishing a five-book series and two failed romances. The romances were supposed to turbocharge my writing career and did the opposite. Then I started hanging out at KBoards again - I spent little time here after joining in 2012 - and KU2 kicked in. I doubled my income in 2015 from the previous year, then doubled it again in 2016, all without publishing anything new. I was still writing and completed two novels that were flawed to the point they need major rewrites, but I learned a lot, especially about characters. Then in December I published the first book in my sig and it took off, as did the second.

My goal for this year was to do $1500 a month, which would equal the small government pension I receive.  I've far exceeded that goal every month.I'm still working as a consultant pulling down six figures, so the writing money has always gone into savings and to support my writing habit.

If I can manage a stable mid-five figures every year to add to pension and social security, I can retire and my SO could quit her day job and do the things she wants. Her income would all be traveling money.  That would be my definition of resounding success and would far exceed what I thought my writing would accomplish.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2017)

If you can make a living you are ahead of the curve. Most can't. If your royalties are enough to pay your bills and allow you to write full-time, you should feel proud. That's quite an accomplishment. You may not be a six-figure earner, but you are still in an elite group who can claim with complete honesty to be a professional novelist.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Thanks for this, Evenstar. I'm really happy for my fellow authors who manage to bring in the big bucks on a regular basis, but it's hard sometimes not to be envious of them. It's really reassuring to read threads like this and realize that I'm not the only one who's not hitting it out of the park yet. 

I had always wanted to write, but never seemed to find the time to really focus on it. In 2011, I was in an accident that robbed me of my career and left me with a lot of time on my hands during a very long and painful recovery. It took me two years to finish my first book and another year to work up the courage to self-publish it in 2014. Now, three years later, I have eight books. Eight. I may only bring in an average of about $80-100 per month, but threads like this help remind me to stop and be proud of myself for everything I've accomplished so far. 

Sure, I'd love to be able to write full-time and support myself on what I earn from my books. It'll happen someday. But for right now, I'm happy to make enough to take my kids out to a nice restaurant once in a while. In fact, this summer, I'm planning on using my Amazon earnings to take my youngest on a two-day camping trip. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it all worth it.


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## rikatz (Oct 4, 2016)

Oh, man...

Between 2001 and 2009, I had four novels published by a small press (that I became a part owner of). All of my books had national distribution and got excellent reviews from venues such as Science Fiction Chronicle, Infinity Plus, Mystery Scene Magazine, Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine, etc. Not a lot of sales but really good reviews, and when I went to a convention, the real writers treated me like I was one of them. Then I got a new job and didn't do much for a few years.

I recently put my four previous novels, plus a short story, up on Kindle, preparatory to epublishing a new novel. Then I started reading Goodreads and Kindle Boards and dimly realized that maybe there might be a little gold in what I had thought of as tapped out veins. I started modifying my Facebook page and started an AMS ad a few days ago. In the past week, six books have sold and i have 125 pages read from the Kindle Library. I have accumulated royalties of $12.64 and somebody from Australia purchased my first mystery! My wife and I cracked open a bottle of champagne at that one. Making a living from writing seems like an impossible goal but I have no reason not to try.

A post like this is both discouraging and endlessly encouraging to me. The fact that people can self-publish their books and even break even is like a dream come true. Kindle and other venues like them offer a whole new world to writers. Prior to Kindle (and maybe even now) the average published novelist in the United States made less than $5000 per year from writing, and that was from actual publishers putting out actual books written on paper, so while my hopes are high, my expectations are much more down to Earth. As I said, it's a whole new world, but we'll see...


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## S.L. (Jun 6, 2016)

Very well said!  I moved from Los Angeles to a much cheaper area of the country about 6 months ago.  I could probably make a living as a full-time author pretty cheaply, but I'm not quite there yet.  My upcoming novel is the first one I've written to market, and I'm hoping it's the one to finally help me make the leap.  Right now, I pull in $200-$400 a month and I'm only 10 months into my self-pub journey.  Without kboards, though, I doubt I would be doing a fraction of what I am.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I read somewhere that the average salary in the UK was 19k.  That seems incredibly low to me, but I live in the South which is a lot more expensive than the North.

Yes, it only took me a year to equal my day job (part-time) salary, but do remember that was in 2013-14.  It's an unavoidable truth that it's getting harder to sustain the figures with a more crowded marketplace.  But it isn't impossible, just don't give up  

And I'm still trying to work out how to take my income to the next level, I've spent a year trying to analyse where my weaknesses are, and I'll keep going until I nail it. Onward and upward, right?


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## EllieDee (May 28, 2017)

> It's an unavoidable truth that it's getting harder to sustain the figures with a more crowded marketplace.


Totally true, and that trend is going to continue as time goes on. Writing is also an inherently unstable industry. Your rankings and earnings drop so fast now between books and if a story doesn't take off like you want, it's time to tighten the belt while you work on the next one.

However, the silver lining to all of this is that readers like me are more likely to be loyal to authors we do love. There are so many books on Amazon, and it's so hard to find the kind of themes/characters/voice I'm looking for. Amazon's ranking system sucks. Their top 100 lists are generally disappointing (with a few exceptions). I'm signed up to places like Bookbub and occasionally find a gem, but it's a crapshoot.

Am I too picky? Probably. But now when I find somebody I really like, I prefer to stick with them rather than be forced out into the jungle of the also-boughts. There are authors out there that I would beg to shut up and take my money. So the takeaway is always, always keep writing the next novel.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

We've been homeschooling my son for the last year and a half. It's been really hard. My productivity did take a major dip, and I'm a a slow writer to begin with. Still, I made a decent income last year, and am on track to earn as much this year. (I have two new novels scheduled for this year, but I only ever hope to earn out on new releases, next year they should actually start making me more income.)

I remind myself that I made my income working part-time at home, my son is much happier and reading for fun again, having our child more relaxed made my marriage a lot easier, and I did that all while daydreaming on my keyboard. 

My cup runneth over, and I mean that without sarcasm.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2017)

Great post, Evenstar. You lifted my spirits.


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## Shaun Dowdall (Mar 8, 2013)

Completely agree with this post and loved reading it. I've got goals and ambitions with my writing, and I'm a long way off, but every step forward is a step in the right direction. For me, when my writing matches my day job earnings, I'll be a happy man.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

Great post, Evenstar! It's all about perspective.


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## meh (Apr 18, 2013)

TOS.


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## gmaz135 (Oct 20, 2016)

Great post, Evenstar! Its a matter of perspective. I am not envious of the 100K-ers. I say good for them. I admire their talent, commitment and productivity. I only crank out about one novel a year, so my expectations are modest. I make enough to run an occasional promotion and pay for a few rounds of golf.  I write for fun, but want to be read...otherwise what's the point? The fact that anyone, anywhere would be willing to plunk down a few bucks to read my work is good enough for me.


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## bberntson (Oct 24, 2013)

I've been at this since 2011, and I still haven't made a profit.  I have revamped things considerably since then, and sometimes I have to do my own covers.  I work full time at B&N, and that, too, is discouraging.  You can feel the hours being cut and the workload piling on, but I do work around books at least.  Sometimes, I can get lucky and have a friend here in town I do editing work for, and he'll pay me enough where I can buy a professional cover.  I'm probably doing better with sales and page reads than I ever have, but I don't think I'm making a profit yet.  I also write in various genres: horror, ya fantasy, and dark fantasy, which is tricky, too, but those are the genres I love.  

Today I got a review for my darkest and grittiest novel that I think is my best work.  She said, "Copious amounts of swearing, very dark content. Gave me nightmares. Lots of drugs. Still couldn't put it down! Bravo! Wow!"  Every now and then this kind of stuff comes along and it makes me realize, "Hey, she got it."  Whenever I get a review for that book, I get nervous, because I just don't think people are going to appreciate it, but then I get proved wrong.  It made my day today.  I wish they weren't so few and far between, but I think it's encouraging.  

Still, it's almost like you're waiting for the world to respond to your ideas, hoping something catches on.  That's how I feel anyway, while trying to stay positive, keep working, keep writing, and publishing.  I'm not sure how else to do it.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

TonyGonline said:


> But!Evenstar!
> 
> Wow! Look at all your books (although they've disappeared from you sig, I saw your website), I admire what you've achieved, you're books look amazing all lined up on your website. You're like a one woman book publishing machine, freaking awesome.
> If I ever got to the stage my website looked like yours I'd be a happy camper, I'd feel like I'd achieved so very much.
> Bottom line, and REALLY, I'm not being all crawley bum lick here (yes! I was a young ones fan ) I'd say a successful author is what you look like


Aw, thanks Tony (that doesn't even include my pen name books), I appreciate the big up. I'm sure you'll get there too 
I loved The Young Ones as well.

Vegetable Rights and Peas!


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

Thanks for the honesty, Evenstar.

I got serious in 2013 and have put out five books of my own and helped with several others, and I'm not making much more than I did with my early success either. Unlike you, I'm not making half what I was in my previous employment. I did get a BookBub this year, so I got that going for me.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah, I've never managed to get a bookbub. Such a waste of all that unicorn blood


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

rikatz said:


> A post like this is both discouraging and endlessly encouraging to me. The fact that people can self-publish their books and even break even is like a dream come true. Kindle and other venues like them offer a whole new world to writers. Prior to Kindle (and maybe even now) the average published novelist in the United States made less than $5000 per year from writing, and that was from actual publishers putting out actual books written on paper, so while my hopes are high, my expectations are much more down to Earth. As I said, it's a whole new world, but we'll see...


I made better than $5k last year, and passed that in January of this year. One of the things I learned here on KBoards is that you have to constantly promote. My sales charts look like an EKG of a heart attack, and it's easy to see the months where I released a new book, the months where I promoted my books, and the months where I did neither. If you don't make them visible, no one buys them. I love to write, and I love it that people read my books and enjoy them. I hate the marketing part, but if you don't promote, then it's just a hobby.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

Very well said, Evenstar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> I made better than $5k last year, and passed that in January of this year. One of the things I learned here on KBoards is that you have to constantly promote. My sales charts look like an EKG of a heart attack, and it's easy to see the months where I released a new book, the months where I promoted my books, and the months where I did neither. If you don't make them visible, no one buys them. I love to write, and I love it that people read my books and enjoy them. I hate the marketing part, but if you don't promote, then it's just a hobby.


So true. I never promote my backlist and it has sunk into obscurity. I can't wait for Chris Fox's next book to come out (apparently it is about backlists)


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## Overrated (Mar 20, 2015)

This is a needed post. Thanks, Evenstar. 

I just hit my two year pub birthday. I'm not where I wanted to be. BUT - thanks to a little marketing, and me learning that I REALLY need to get out of my own way sometimes, I can see that my tunnel does indeed have a light at the end.

It's only a pinprick, but it's there. 

I'd like to be in the 100k club. I admit it. I also think to get there, I need more time, more books, and a better-organized schedule. I'm working on all of those. 

Somewhat OT, but I miss seeing your books in your sig, Evenstar. I like all the covers. I like all the books, too.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> Now, I'm envious. We don't have a decent curry house for over a mile.


This is a pretty good one - we end up going there probably more than we should...

But then I like cooking curry at home, so it's good to have a bit of variety


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## Huldra (Nov 7, 2013)

.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> So true. I never promote my backlist and it has sunk into obscurity. I can't wait for Chris Fox's next book to come out (apparently it is about backlists)


I just used some of the money from my instant success to recover my older series. One or two low-priced promos a month - usually less than $100 total - at least keeps the books visible and pulls in a few hundred a month. I haven't reached the point where $300-500 is unnoticed.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

TonyGonline said:


> Jeez! Now you're just showing off
> 
> Yeah! Pen names...I was thinking about saying I had a few pen names, not to show off you understand, heaven forbid...just so I can say I have a secret stash of books and then not tell anyone what they are ...I'm very grown up like that


Ha ha! Yes, you could. Mine's not a secret, here you go: http://www.elenabryce.com/


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Huldra said:


> Thank you for this thread, Evenstar <3
> It always baffles me when 100k/year seems like the marker for success. I mean, don't get me wrong, I dearly hope to get there one day, but... I'm the only one I know outside of author forums who gets to work part-time from home in my underpants and still pull in the equivalent income of a post-grad job. This is the kind of thing I always dreamed of doing when I was stressing over exams and worrying about never getting any time for myself once I'd eventually get on the corporate ladder.
> But it's not really considered success in some circles? Huh.


You definitely qualify as a success story!

If you are earning the equivalent of a post grad job _and_ working part time _and_ you get to be a writer, you are living the dream Huldra



brkingsolver said:


> I just used some of the money from my instant success to recover my older series. One or two low-priced promos a month - usually less than $100 total - at least keeps the books visible and pulls in a few hundred a month. I haven't reached the point where $300-500 is unnoticed.


That's exactly what I need to do too. Great plan


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Huldra said:


> Thank you for this thread, Evenstar <3
> It always baffles me when 100k/year seems like the marker for success. I mean, don't get me wrong, I dearly hope to get there one day, but... I'm the only one I know outside of author forums who gets to work part-time from home in my underpants and still pull in the equivalent income of a post-grad job. This is the kind of thing I always dreamed of doing when I was stressing over exams and worrying about never getting any time for myself once I'd eventually get on the corporate ladder.
> But it's not really considered success in some circles? Huh.


I don't think that is the marker for most authors out there. I keep saying I spend a lot of time listening to and reading interviews, speaking to new authors on forums and blogs. I have even emailed some authors to ask for advice. What I hear from many authors is that they hate their day job and just want to be able to write full time and cover their bills and expenses.

It's soul destroying to wake up and go to a job you hate.

I love reading the big success stories but I also love reading the stories of people who have quit their day job, are paying all their bills and are happier writing.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Stella, I feel ya. I really, really do.

Up until recently, I found myself making 1/10 of what I was making with six books, even though I was up to, I think, 27 books by then. I was one of those five-figure-a-month writers for two whole years, and then I found myself making around $1500 a month - with 21 more books than when I was killing it! 

Boy, that was a sinking feeling (literally). My new series turned it all around, and you should take heart in my story and many others (even now, though, I have moments of panic - such as the other day when I had a sales nose-dive. Here it comes, I thought - the cliff. Your sales are gonna suck from here on out. They recovered, though). Check out Perry Constantin's thread - he has a major hit on his hands, after years of trying. Another poster, I won't name her because maybe she doesn't want me to, but she struggled for years and years, putting out book after book that floundered. Now she's winding down a very successful UF series, and is now killing it with psychological thrillers. Sarah Dalton on here told her story about how she was frustrated because she was doing well in YA, then started spinning her wheels (boy, can I relate to that), and thought that her time had passed her by. She now has a book that probably has sold a half a million copies in just six months or so. 

Success in this business goes in peaks and valleys, and you never know when your next series might be the one that hits and sticks. Hang in there, lovely Stella!


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## GoneToWriterSanctum (Sep 13, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I don't think that is the marker for most authors out there. I keep saying I spend a lot of time listening to and reading interviews, speaking to new authors on forums and blogs. I have even emailed some authors to ask for advice. What I hear from many authors is that they hate their day job and just want to be able to write full time and cover their bills and expenses.
> 
> It's soul destroying to wake up and go to a job you hate.
> 
> I love reading the big success stories but I also love reading the stories of people who have quit their day job, are paying all their bills and are happier writing.


^^^THIS!!! DEFINITELY THIS!!!^^^


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> So true. I never promote my backlist and it has sunk into obscurity. I can't wait for Chris Fox's next book to come out (apparently it is about backlists)


I quit promoting my backlist as well. Not because I've given up on it, but because I want to give the promo sites a rest for awhile. I was promoting each loss-leader once every six months, and it really showed in the ROI - it got less and less each time, because that's what happens when you overuse any one promo site. I'm going to try to "rest" my backlist so that at least one year goes by before I promote them again. In October, it will be a year for some of my series, so I'm going to go at it again, and in January, I can promote my best-selling series again, Broken, because that's the last time I promoted that title.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

BellaJames said:


> It's soul destroying to wake up and go to a job you hate.


It really is. I lasted two years in corporate America before quitting and starting my own business. I haven't been traditionally employed since, and that was thirty years ago.

Your emancipation (if single) depends on where you live and your consumer appetites (duh). I live in a part of the country where $1800 net monthly more than covers basic needs (assuming you own your car and aren't servicing CC or other debts). Even that "low" amount requires selling about 40 books a day (KU $2.99/80k words). Yearly, that's an income of $24,500.

Having a single book ranked at about #5500 year round would produce that income, as would four books idling around #25,000. We know most books fail to hold rankings very long, meaning they're not bankable in most cases. Still, you can get an idea of what "success" looks like. (I only "study" author's catalogs that achieve some sort of evergreen status with ranks holding between 10-70k on the oldest titles.)

While most shouldn't need $100k to make ends meet, and most couldn't live on $25k, the magic number is somewhere between the two and I think what that number is will depend on your personal circumstances alone. You can't judge your success against other people.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks so much for this post. I first published with a small publisher in 2010. I left them and began self-publishing in 2013. The first few years were fantastic. I earned enough to stay home with the kids, which was huge because in my previous career I was always working and always on call (psychotherapist). The last 1-2 years everything has taken a nosedive (I blame algorithmic changes at Amazon, mainly because it wasn't a gradual process - it was literally overnight). My kids are now nearly grown (one in college, one a senior in high school). I'm grateful to have been able to do what I've done, and plan to keep on writing.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm jumping in here to say two things. 

1) I'm sorry if sharing the 100K post made people feel bad. That wasn't my intention. I was more aiming it at folks (and there are still plenty of folks) who don't get that you really do need a pro-quality cover. 

2) I still feel shame when my author ranking drops or I have a tough month. I feel like I can only post when I'm selling super well. I suspect lots of people are like that. If I'm posting a lot? It probably means that I'm not embarrassed if people go look me up on Amazon. 

That's embarrassing to admit in itself. We all measure ourselves against others. I'm really trying to work on that now with myself. I moved to a much cheaper area recently where I can have a great lifestyle for less money than I was paying. (I lived in Berkeley, CA before--let's just say the Bay Area is pricey!) Living here allows me to relax more financially and do things "my way," which is write the book that comes to me, knowing that some series and subgenres will be more lucrative for me than others. If it's not all about the money, I can do it for love. 

3) OK, 3 things. I only started writing when I was over 50 and my kids were grown and gone. In fact, I wrote my first book during the only month since I was 26 years old when I was alone in a house. It happened to be a house next to a gorgeous New Zealand beach, which is why my first series is what it is. But yeah--the first time in almost 30 years that I was alone for any length of time. I need that kind of head space to write. I could never have written if I were going to a day job (I was working, but only 20-30 hours/week, and as a consultant from home). I could absolutely never have written if I'd still had kids at home. I'm boggled by those of you who write books with day jobs and/or children. I honestly think you should congratulate yourselves, because that's not easy. 

I guess I'm proof that life has many acts. There are some people 30 years younger than me who are full-time successful authors, and that's great. But for me, I needed all this living and knowing people and life experience to write books anybody would want to read. Plus I needed the ten years of writing marketing copy to get some skills. Writing books is actually its own reward, too. I sure have enjoyed doing it. I think sometimes we overlook that part. 

Anyway--again, I'm sorry if I've made anybody feel bad. I get it, because I feel exactly the same at times.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm jumping in here to say two things.
> 
> 1) I'm sorry if sharing the 100K post made people feel bad. That wasn't my intention. I was more aiming it at folks (and there are still plenty of folks) who don't get that you really do need a pro-quality cover.
> 
> ...


Oh gosh, no. Never ever hold back. I love love love the success stories and the posts full of info, which that one was.

My post was about me needing to stop comparing myself to others, and how I think everyone who is still trying to break out needs to remember that too.

You're right. There is so much pleasure to be had merely from being a writer, but for me I needed to say out loud (as it were) that I have achieved something I should be calling a success rather than feeling like a failure. If I could tell my ten years younger self that I would be a stay at home author by now then I'd have been jumping over the moon with joy. I really am living my childhood dream. (Though I did think I'd be richer and have a pony  )

I just wanted to remind everyone that smaller levels of success are still amazing and not to get disheartened and compare yourself to others, that's never a good thing.

More hugging coming, even for those of you that hate hugs, lol

---

Slightly off-topic but your story, Rosalind, reminds me of my great aunt. She didn't start writing until she was *70!* Her first book was a #1 best seller and so were the ten that followed it. But she'd spend a great deal of her life writing her husbands copy for him (I think he was a journalist, I can't remember) and it gave her the skills she needed to break out immediately. I read her biography a few years ago and discovered all sorts of things about her life that she'd never told me, I could instantly see some of those experiences mirrored in her books. A great life can definitely help make a great cache to draw on for great books


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> Stella, I feel ya. I really, really do.
> 
> Up until recently, I found myself making 1/10 of what I was making with six books, even though I was up to, I think, 27 books by then. I was one of those five-figure-a-month writers for two whole years, and then I found myself making around $1500 a month - with 21 more books than when I was killing it!
> 
> ...


Oh dear, did I sound really miserable? I didn't mean to, it was supposed to be an uplifting post!

But yes, I agree with everything you said. And I'm loving following along with Perry's thread. He's a long time poster that I feel like I know really well and it is SO good to see his book doing amazeballs. (I started reading it today, and it is as good as it looks).


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm jumping in here to say two things.
> 
> 1) I'm sorry if sharing the 100K post made people feel bad. That wasn't my intention. I was more aiming it at folks (and there are still plenty of folks) who don't get that you really do need a pro-quality cover.


Ros, I've always considered you to be one of the most gracious people posting here, so I doubt anyone thought your post was at all mean-spirited or condescending. A lot of people hang out here because there are successful authors willing to help and give advice.

It is hard sometimes to see others succeed and not being able to discern why X book took off like a rocket and Y book, which is almost identical, languishes in the $30 a month range. We all love our babies, and sometimes they are actually beautiful but no one buys them and it's easy to get discouraged.

But it's also good to keep in mind that success is very personal, and I think Evenstar reminding people of that is a good thing. Although I wouldn't turn down Rosalind James money, I'll consider myself a happy success on a lot less.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm jumping in here to say two things.


Don't be silly, Rosalind. We strive to be where you are. We also find encouragement in threads like these along the way.

Self improvement should always be the goal, not hating those more successful.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Thanks Evenstar!

I love this post.  Been feeling in the dumps recently but still writing away.  I am tied down, which is a poor way to describe it, to home because of a critically sick little boy getting sicker.  He is still in school but has a modified day so I have 5 hours a day to 'work'.  If my real job calls I can go but.. self employed.

I have had some sales and slowly put out the books.  Right now I am desperately writing as many as possible so when we (me and him) go into isolation in the hospital I can automate by pre-order releasing everything I have done every 3 weeks.  I have paid attention to everything said about doing that successfully.  Here is hoping it works as I will be out of the loop for up to 8 months.

Success is what we each decide it is for ourselves.


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## Catherine Lea (Jul 16, 2013)

I absolutely adore this thread. Would I like to earn $100K? Who wouldn't? But as mentioned by a few, everyone's circumstances are different. I hit a sweet spot with my first thriller. Got a couple of Bookbubs, and rode a minor wave of success (without actually realizing it ). But then I lost my daughter and I fell into a bout of depression. I put out the second book last year which is doing okay, but for various reasons I've chosen a difficult series to and the third book has driven me nuts.

I met up with Rosalind James when she was in New Zealand and she gave me some fantastic advice. She's every bit as generous in real life as she is on Kboards. Basically, she advised me to write what I love, write to market, and keep putting out good books. Now I'm in a better place, that's the plan. Yes, life gets in the way. Yes, it's more difficult than it used to be. But what the heck else would we all be doing?
[/quote]


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## Kallie (Sep 17, 2010)

tommy gun said:


> Thanks Evenstar!
> 
> I love this post. Been feeling in the dumps recently but still writing away. I am tied down, which is a poor way to describe it, to home because of a critically sick little boy getting sicker. He is still in school but has a modified day so I have 5 hours a day to 'work'. If my real job calls I can go but.. self employed.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry to hear about your little one. Sending lots of hugs and positive vibes in your direction.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm like Evenstar. I started in 2010, but I only had one book and had no clue that readers would want more, so there was a little bit of a lapse, but luckily I did have a story I'd actually written before my first book and I had the same main character (but totally different plot/theme). I was able to re-work it to fit within a series so I was able to get it out in about 4 months from when I realized I needed a book 2 (2-3 months after I first published) But then things got hard. My husband, who had been laid off in 2008, finally went to almost full-time work in 2012 (but at less than half what he'd been earning prior to layoff). One thing that had allowed me to write was that he had taken over most of the errands. My full-time day job was exhausting as 2 days a week I'd be gone from 5:20 in the morning until about 7pm. The other two days I was gone for nine and a half hours. 

I now have ten books out, with seven of them in the 90k range, two at 60k, and one at 45k, plus a short story collection. They sell pretty well, but I also feel like a hamster running as hard as I can to just stay in the same place. Luckily, I was able to go part-time at the day job in 2012 and I earn about as much in book sales as I lost in income from going part-time but I had hoped to be well beyond that by now.


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Evenstar said:


> Slightly off-topic but your story, Rosalind, reminds me of my great aunt. She didn't start writing until she was *70!*


That bolding gave me a chuckle. Believe it or not, 70 doesn't seem all that old when you get there. My first writing came in my 40's, but along with it came the discovery I wasn't willing to do what getting traditionally pubished required for the amount it was likely to yield. I first published in my mid-60's when I discovered KDP.

I only glanced at the $100,000 thread long enough to see it was about what I figured it was about. It didn't make me feel envious or sad, but it seems like more of something regularly discussed on KBoards that doesn't apply to me. I've earned mid-five figures for six years now treating writing as a part time job and am quite satisfied with that and never going to do most of the things I supposedly "have" to do.

If Amazon would give me a written guarantee that if I put in the hours Amanda Lee does I'd earn her income, my answer would be no. I think it would have been no even back in my 30's or 40's. There's a reference above to working at a "soul-destroying" job, and at that level, and even far short of it, that's what writing would be for me.

As to soul-destroying, maybe I didn't hate the jobs I worked all my life enough, but I sure didn't like them and only did it because I had to. Also I never earned $50,000 a year much less $100,000. A couple of times I had to take a second part-time job on top of the full-time one to pay the bills. What I think made the difference is at that time I was heavily into raising and showing horses, which I admit was what required the 2d jobs now and then. I think doing something you're passionate about dilutes the effect of having to work at something you aren't passionate about. Showing horses, writing books, whatever works.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

ellenoc said:


> If Amazon would give me a written guarantee that if I put in the hours Amanda Lee does I'd earn her income, my answer would be no.


Once upon a time... When I was Amanda's age, working 70-80 hours a week was the norm for what I was doing. I was never as monetarily successful as she is, but I've earned more than six figures for a long time. Adding in my SO's income puts us in a tax bracket that hurts to think about. I started writing shortly after my 60th birthday, and money is no longer as important as it once was. I consider the possibility of being able to make a living while sitting almost anywhere in the world far more important to me now.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

If I were independently wealthy, I might have all my books be free.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

MClayton said:


> Thanks so much for this post. I first published with a small publisher in 2010. I left them and began self-publishing in 2013. The first few years were fantastic. I earned enough to stay home with the kids, which was huge because in my previous career I was always working and always on call (psychotherapist). The last 1-2 years everything has taken a nosedive (I blame algorithmic changes at Amazon, mainly because it wasn't a gradual process - it was literally overnight). My kids are now nearly grown (one in college, one a senior in high school). I'm grateful to have been able to do what I've done, and plan to keep on writing.


Just have to say Melinda, your covers for Cedar Hollow are in one word; Magnificent. And the blurbs make me just want to take out my credit card. I can see why they did well. I hope things pick up again soon.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

tommy gun said:


> Right now I am desperately writing as many as possible so when we (me and him) go into isolation in the hospital I can automate by pre-order releasing everything I have done every 3 weeks.


Now that is truly inspiring. This post made me feel determined. If you can do that while coping with your situation then you are a hero.
Sending you extra extra hugs for both of you.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Catherine Lea said:


> I absolutely adore this thread. Would I like to earn $100K? Who wouldn't? But as mentioned by a few, everyone's circumstances are different. I hit a sweet spot with my first thriller. Got a couple of Bookbubs, and rode a minor wave of success (without actually realizing it ). But then I lost my daughter and I fell into a bout of depression. I put out the second book last year which is doing okay, but for various reasons I've chosen a difficult series to and the third book has driven me nuts.
> 
> I met up with Rosalind James when she was in New Zealand and she gave me some fantastic advice. She's every bit as generous in real life as she is on Kboards. Basically, she advised me to write what I love, write to market, and keep putting out good books. Now I'm in a better place, that's the plan. Yes, life gets in the way. Yes, it's more difficult than it used to be. But what the heck else would we all be doing?


I'm so sorry for your loss 
Reading some of the responses here has reminded me of the huge respect I have for so many of the authors on kboards. You are amazing people and I feel really lucky to have found this place for the good times and the tough ones.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> 2) I still feel shame when my author ranking drops or I have a tough month. I feel like I can only post when I'm selling super well. I suspect lots of people are like that. If I'm posting a lot? It probably means that I'm not embarrassed if people go look me up on Amazon.


LOL. I'm EXACTLY the same way! When I'm floundering, I don't post, mainly because I feel like I don't have much to contribute. And if I did contribute, I feel like people are going to look up my books and say "she doesn't know what she's talking about." I still feel like that, because I'm doing okay, but not knocking it out of the park with my new series. But I did manage to bring myself out of the ditch, so I hope that inspires.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> LOL. I'm EXACTLY the same way! When I'm floundering, I don't post, mainly because I feel like I don't have much to contribute. And if I did contribute, I feel like people are going to look up my books and say "she doesn't know what she's talking about." I still feel like that, because I'm doing okay, but not knocking it out of the park with my new series. But I did manage to bring myself out of the ditch, so I hope that inspires.


I'm really happy to hear about your new series and your success in the new genre. There's a whole lot to be said for writing what you "get" at the deepest level, what inspires you. If nothing else, it sure is more enjoyable!


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## Author A.C. Salter (Mar 14, 2017)

WOW! Very inspirational. I only published last year but have been writing (or trying to write) for over 20 years. It's taken that long to hone the craft but in the meantime my mind has been creating stories, worlds and characters so that I have enough material for another 12 books in the series. But my biggest enemy is time. I had a career as a sniper in the British army and found time to write in small snatches as I was rarely alone. Mostly just jotting down ideas in a notebook which fitted snugly in my ghillie suit.

Currently I work anything between 65 and 78 hr a weeks. I'm now a truck driver so take my lap-top and write in my breaks or when waiting for my trailer to be unloaded/loaded. I don't do any writing at home as this is family time. But I think I've found a balance that allows me to write a book every 10 months. Not impressive compared to some, but it allows me to earn a good wage through trucking and earn a small amount from my books. 

I guess what I'm saying is, it would be awesome to earn 100k and be a full time author, but until that happens, I'm pretty happy with how things are. 

Great thread by the way


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2017)

Part of the problem is that there has always been this ugly undercurrent in indie publishing that this is "easy" and if you aren't making a lot of money you are just lazy. Because the cost of entry into the industry is next to nothing, there is a serious "anyone can do it" vibe that makes people feel like failures if they don't achieve some magical number (whether that number is a set number of sales or a specific rank). A lot of folks also don't have a real understanding of the history of the publishing industry and the REAL norms. Everyone is aware of the best sellers, but they don't really understand how deep the industry runs beyond the bestseller lists. Because people only know the most cursory info, It is incredibly easy to internalize all the wrong expectations and think you are a failure when you are really a success.

I started self-publishing in 2004 (yeah, I'm old lol). My first project was a d20 campaign setting. When I sold the first 5000 copies, I was excited, because I knew that that was a big deal for an indie RPG, particularly because of the niche and fragmented nature of the gaming community. But my friends, who had NO idea what the norms were, had very different responses when I told them. Some were "Oh, sorry to hear that. I thought it would sell more" because they were comparing my sales to the major players like Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf. But then others were like "Oh my God! You must be making boatloads of money!" Because in their head 5000 sales x $19.99 list price=let me borrow money (because concepts like editing, art, distribution costs, etc are alien to them lol).

I don't publish series. I don't publish romance and YA. I don't use permafrees or worry about Amazon algorithms. There are times when I take on projects I KNOW will not be commercially successful simply because I want to do so. If you look at the sales rank on Amazon for most of my titles, you would call be a failure (and there are those who have thrown my sales rank in my face as a way of dismissing my opinions. BUT...

My net profits after everyone is paid covers my car payment (and my gaming addictions) every month. The extra money I've banked this year is paying for my New Orleans honeymoon. 
I _pay_ my people every month. My editors, writers, artists have never worried about whether or not they would get paid. 
Though my charity writing contest and other initiatives, I've raised thousands of dollars for charities that matter to me.

That is success to me. Would hitting the bestseller's list be nice? Sure it would, but so would winning the lottery. I don't need to do either to feel successful. I'm publishing the stuff that I enjoy and getting paid to do it.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Part of the problem is that there has always been this ugly undercurrent in indie publishing that this is "easy" and if you aren't making a lot of money you are just lazy. Because the cost of entry into the industry is next to nothing, there is a serious "anyone can do it" vibe that makes people feel like failures if they don't achieve some magical number (whether that number is a set number of sales or a specific rank). A lot of folks also don't have a real understanding of the history of the publishing industry and the REAL norms. Everyone is aware of the best sellers, but they don't really understand how deep the industry runs beyond the bestseller lists. Because people only know the most cursory info, It is incredibly easy to internalize all the wrong expectations and think you are a failure when you are really a success.
> 
> I started self-publishing in 2004 (yeah, I'm old lol). My first project was a d20 campaign setting. When I sold the first 5000 copies, I was excited, because I knew that that was a big deal for an indie RPG, particularly because of the niche and fragmented nature of the gaming community. But my friends, who had NO idea what the norms were, had very different responses when I told them. Some were "Oh, sorry to hear that. I thought it would sell more" because they were comparing my sales to the major players like Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf. But then others were like "Oh my God! You must be making boatloads of money!" Because in their head 5000 sales x $19.99 list price=let me borrow money (because concepts like editing, art, distribution costs, etc are alien to them lol).
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *There are times when I take on projects I KNOW will not be commercially successful simply because I want to do so*. If you look at the sales rank on Amazon for most of my titles, you would call be a failure (and there are those who have thrown my sales rank in my face as a way of dismissing my opinions. BUT...


And why not? Some of us have a love for story-telling, even if it isn't going to be the next humungo bestseller. But then again, it just might be.

Testing out new genre niches might be an overall losing proposition, but sometimes they hit. Without writers like us, there would be no new concepts.


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## 39416 (Mar 18, 2011)

My feeling is that if you completed writing a novel, published it, and a stranger paid you money to read it and didn't ask for a refund, then you are a writing success. The rest is detail.


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## LucyH (Jun 7, 2017)

As someone who is totally new to all this I would call that a success story - you're a professional writer, you've given up the day job, that's awesome!


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## KeraEmory (Feb 8, 2016)

The whole thing is a huge mind-eff for me, although I think I have more than the full dose of writer neurosis.

My confidence in my writing ability is pretty high (or at least it's high on alternating days). But I write slow, and I can't do anything about that. (No really, I can't. It's a mix of day job (which I love) and my inability to put out something I feel is unpolished. (Maybe this will change, I don't know.)) I also don't ever see myself 'writing to market' unless it's by accident. The money/gratification ratio of my day job is higher than the money/gratification ratio would be for writing stuff I don't feel, or whatever that month's trend is (and by the time I was done, it would be last year's trend anyway). To put another way, my day job is not a grind, but writing that month's flavor of erotica or UF would be. 

I also hate social media (especially in 2017). 

So, I have a lot of fatal strikes against me for 100k club, and yes that stuff puts my self-esteem in the toilet, which is why I'm not around here much. I've been trying for a year to get to a psychological place of accepting that this is just going to be a hobby, but apparently my ego is more fragile than I ever realized.


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## rachelmedhurst (Jun 25, 2014)

I'm with you, Evenstar. I had my worst month last month for two years! But, I'm trying my hardest not to be discouraged. I'm like you, I struggle to up my income, even with new releases. I'm going to try my hardest to write to market better as I'm not great at that. 

But, I've released 20 books and I'm proud. I'm earning a bit of money, although not enough to live on, and it's good to know that I'm selling books. I would really love to earn enough to live on...and some lol! 

We will get there!


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm on year two of this Indie expedition and still sell quite little (more KDP reads than sales, actually). One thing that's been a boon is finding my audience. Every book I've released has done slightly better than the previous one, so that's success in my world. At least for now. Success means something different to everyone, yes? Setting (goal) bars and reaching those bars is success. It's a long term thing, I think. Over time, I wish to sustain myself more with my books but for now, supplemental income is required. Boo.


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks, Evenstar. Lack of "success" as I define it for me and my family has not occurred in my writing journey. So far. I teeter on the edge of inspired and depressed when I read posts about indie success. Just like I felt in the 90s when I pursued a traditional path to publication. The stories of first novel successes, of agents open to new authors, of new markets opening up, and author's stories (like John Grisham) led me down the path of envy and disappointment.

My depression tends to paralyze me in terms of production and effort toward marketing. Bad turns to worse. Nothing works to kill a back list and halt sales across the board than to stop promoting AND stop publishing new work. I struggle to process the success of others in comparison to the masses seeking the same thing I am striving for. More than the money (although it is a priority), I long to get my book in readers' hands. Short of giving them away (which I've done to mixed results), I would like for nothing more than to have someone read my work.

Thanks again for putting some perspective on my journey. I don't think it will dampen my expectations of what my overall goal is of becoming a full-time author. Where I live and where I am in life would not necessitate that I be more than a "mid-lister." I would, however, like to someday be able to say that I published 100 titles or more. That would be a solid achievement, no matter what the income level.


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## Denae C (Oct 8, 2016)

rikatz said:


> . . . . The fact that people can self-publish their books and even break even is like a dream come true . . . .


I'm with you. We have hope! Someday, I'll be able to afford my own covers and website. Someday, I'll make a profit. It may be forever away, but _someday_ I will quit the day job, too (even if it is retirement!).


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Part of the problem is that there has always been this ugly undercurrent in indie publishing that this is "easy" and if you aren't making a lot of money you are just lazy.


This has bothered me ever since getting into this industry. Every single forum, anywhere, is so driven by the business side of things (ie. do x, y, z to maximize profits). I mean, I get it, it matters (a lot). But the whole concept of "art" gets totally lost and degraded in the process.

How many artists made nothing during their life and only after they died their paintings became worth millions? Or how many writers struggled for years only to then hit it big with a masterpiece.

I'm not saying it's one or the other, but yes, the business perspective on self-publishing is massively over emphasized to the artistic side of it.

Tell people you write a book a month using a "write to market" strategy and cool covers and confetti basically explodes in the room.

Tell people you spent a year crafting an intricate, complex story and people will look at you like you're nuts.

That's the impact Bezos has had on the industry... big mac and fries, next!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Seneca42 said:


> This has bothered me ever since getting into this industry. Every single forum, anywhere, is so driven by the business side of things (ie. do x, y, z to maximize profits). I mean, I get it, it matters (a lot). But the whole concept of "art" gets totally lost and degraded in the process.
> 
> How many artists made nothing during their life and only after they died their paintings became worth millions? Or how many writers struggled for years only to then hit it big with a masterpiece.
> 
> ...


Disagree. I think it's more that it looks like a meritocracy. And in a way, it is. Very low barriers to entry. You're more respected in this business the better you sell. I don't write a book a month, and some of my books are indeed intricate and complex for their genre. I could say the same about a number of other authors in other genres. What respect I receive (and it's not much; most people don't have a clue who I am--my realtor did know recently, and that was awesome, but it's darned rare) is because I sell a lot of books.

But yeah, there's an artistic side too. It's just that it's much, much harder to pin down. It is not necessarily pretty prose. It IS craft. But when you talk about that here--that's where feelings tend to get hurt. So mostly, people don't. But I know that I've said a number of times that one of the easier ways to make it in this gig is to write books that still sell over years. You're not on a treadmill that way. You're not cranking out two novels a month. You're writing books that mean something to you.

That's one path. And I know it's discussed in this industry, at least by some people. I know I've discussed it. I couldn't do this job the other way. I'm lucky indeed that this way works for me.

At the moment, I'm finishing a 110K book that will come out five months after I finished the last book. In other words, an eternity in Romancelandia. It's also, as usual, nothing at all like Book 1 in the series, which came out, yep, more than seven months ago. Another eternity. I don't know how this book will do at all, but it's what I needed to write, so I've written it.

Everybody I know who sells extremely well puts out well-crafted, polished books. For what that's worth.

Artists who struggled and made nothing in their lifetime generally did not write genre fiction. Literary fiction is a different animal entirely. Genre writers have always written relatively quickly. Check out Agatha Christie's output sometime. Georgette Heyer's. Those women were good writers, and they're still read today--a lot. And they wrote fast.


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## Seneca42 (Dec 11, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> Disagree. I think it's more that it looks like a meritocracy.


now that you point it out, you're right. Sorry about my post.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2017)

alawston said:


> I sell bog all... I've got seven books out and I barely scrape $20 in royalties most months


You have got everything right then ... except the covers!

Seriously, my friend, get them professionally redone and your career could take off.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Part of the problem is that there has always been this ugly undercurrent in indie publishing that this is "easy" and if you aren't making a lot of money you are just lazy. Because the cost of entry into the industry is next to nothing, there is a serious "anyone can do it" vibe that makes people feel like failures if they don't achieve some magical number (whether that number is a set number of sales or a specific rank). A lot of folks also don't have a real understanding of the history of the publishing industry and the REAL norms. Everyone is aware of the best sellers, but they don't really understand how deep the industry runs beyond the bestseller lists. Because people only know the most cursory info, It is incredibly easy to internalize all the wrong expectations and think you are a failure when you are really a success.
> 
> I started self-publishing in 2004 (yeah, I'm old lol). My first project was a d20 campaign setting. When I sold the first 5000 copies, I was excited, because I knew that that was a big deal for an indie RPG, particularly because of the niche and fragmented nature of the gaming community. But my friends, who had NO idea what the norms were, had very different responses when I told them. Some were "Oh, sorry to hear that. I thought it would sell more" because they were comparing my sales to the major players like Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf. But then others were like "Oh my God! You must be making boatloads of money!" Because in their head 5000 sales x $19.99 list price=let me borrow money (because concepts like editing, art, distribution costs, etc are alien to them lol).
> 
> ...


Great post. And your last line is particular is something I need to print and hang next to my computer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Author A.C. Salter said:


> I had a career as a sniper in the British army


See, this is what I love about author forums - one meets so many interesting people. And in between all the talk of marketing strategies and release schedules and cover art, there are these occasional fascinating glimpses into other people's lives.



> I'm now a truck driver so take my lap-top and write in my breaks or when waiting for my trailer to be unloaded/loaded.


Which is how Wayne Stinnett got started, of course. I'm just in awe of people who manage to write while also holding down a full time job or raising kids or dealing with medical stuff - it's heroic what some of you do to get your books written.

This is a great thread, by the way. Lots of good stuff here, and encouraging for those of us experiencing a downturn (my income has halved these last two months). Thank you, Evenstar.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Will Edwards said:


> You have got everything right then ... except the covers!
> 
> Seriously, my friend, get them professionally redone and your career could take off.


I assume you're looking at the covers in my sig line. A few of them were done by me (Killing Me Softly, Of Mice & Men & Sausages and Smoke Me A Kipper: Neil's Farrago), two are anthologies in which I'm a contributor where I have no cover input (Summer's End, Grimm & Grimmer), and one (Apocalypse Barnes) is a professional pre-made cover which I'm really happy with. The remaining four were put together by a world class designer who's worked for several of the big five (or however many it is these days), including many of Sir Terry Pratchett's final books, Paolini's _Inheritance_, a major redesign of Malorie Blackman's back catalogue and a bunch of other stuff. I could get them redone, and maybe one day I will, but "professionally"? They don't get much more professional than that.

I have to stick up for my designer here, she is my sister in law, and as such I don't actually pay her as such.

My books don't sell more than $20 a month because I don't promote them enough, I'm hopeless with keywords, I don't have a mailing list to speak of, and I constantly hop around genres (my upcoming release schedule... July: comedy zombie apocalypse. August: translation of 1927 French pulp thriller. September: cyberpunk/urban fantasy). Of all the many things that make up a successful career in this game, my covers are the one element with which I'm completely happy.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

alawston said:


> The remaining four were put together by a world class designer who's worked for several of the big five (or however many it is these days), including many of Sir Terry Pratchett's final books, Paolini's _Inheritance_, a major redesign of Malorie Blackman's back catalogue and a bunch of other stuff. I could get them redone, and maybe one day I will, but "professionally"? They don't get much more professional than that.


I believe I noticed that right out of the gate and commented on your fabulous covers quite some time ago. Don't change them.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

As the OP of this thread, I have a request: Can we please not let it turn into a craft V speed debate?

It's just meant to be a nice thread to say there are many many levels of success and I don't think most of us should be comparing ourselves to the many wonderful big hitters here and feel like a failure because of it.

It is the same thing with wealth. If you live your life comparing yourself to others then it almost doesn't matter what you earn because there will always be someone richer than you who has stuff that you covet. It's all relative.

Someone made a post (Patty, I think, in this thread or the other one, I can't remember) that it is really useful to focus on the input of those who are just one level above you. I thought that was brilliant. It gives you a realistic goal to aim at and someone to listen to who might very well be able to share some knowledge on how to apply some of those things to your own publishing.

I am really loving this thread, mainly because it is wonderful to hear some of the inspirational stories, and also the quiet lives people are living while trying to make this work. Even the little things like simply having finished a book and hit publish are a _not _actually so little, they are a success story.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Nic said:


> I believe I noticed that right out of the gate and commented on your fabulous covers quite some time ago. Don't change them.


I think you did, and thanks for that 

If Rachel ever has some serious downtime in her schedule, there are things I might ask her to change. The Chantecoq cover is lovely and minimalist, and looks great in thumbnail, but it doesn't really convey the fast-paced pulp adventure of the book, and it's my worst-selling title. If I'm being completely honest, that could well be because it's not a very good book (I only translated it as a work-for-hire gig, warning the publisher all along that it was awful, and self-published out of sheer spite and bloody-mindedness when the deal went sour), but I don't think enough people have read it for that to be the problem.

Similarly, I love my Casanova cover, but I wonder whether the chair is a bit static and dull. Rachel certainly thought so, but back in 2014 I'd paid a fairly substantial amount for the rights to the image, so I was determined to continue using it... it's the closest I've had to a bestseller, but at some point I might see if she has any better ideas for a cover image.

Something Nice... I doubt anyone remembers on these boards, but the cover image used to be a photo I'd taken myself (with my Blackberry, remember those?) of a pint of beer sitting next to a notebook in a pub garden, and I'd created a border around the image to give it the same texture as the notebook in the photo. It was incredibly lo-fi, but no one ever called me on it, and whenever it was mentioned at all, people felt it had a certain homegrown charm. The book sold about 200 copies over a couple of years in a very easygoing sort of way, not breaking any records, but a more than acceptable strike rate for a debut short story collection.

We all agreed it needed a professional cover, especially when my second collection was almost ready, but the truth is that the moment that lovely cover went live, it stopped selling. For several months. I honestly don't know whether people genuinely preferred my original effort (I find that very hard to believe), or whether the act of updating the cover just earned me the brush-off from some part of the algorithm, but the book's sales never recovered. I'm not sure I've sold more than one copy this year.

I've been incredibly lucky with my covers, but I do feel that just like pieces writing, covers are never finished, only abandoned


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> We all agreed it needed a professional cover, especially when my second collection was almost ready, but the truth is that the moment that lovely cover went live, it stopped selling. For several months. I honestly don't know whether people genuinely preferred my original effort (I find that very hard to believe), or whether the act of updating the cover just earned me the brush-off from some part of the algorithm, but the book's sales never recovered. I'm not sure I've sold more than one copy this year.


You can always put your original back and see what happens. Over the years, I've seen several people do this.

This is another myth that gets a fair bit of airing time here: that better covers will result in more sales.

In the past few years, I've upgraded a lot of my covers (some more than once) and never once have I seen a clear increase in sales.

The covers I commissioned (and they weren't all cheap either) were to create a more unified picture of my author page.

I think you probably see the greatest improvement in sales from a cover that doesn't represent the genre to one that does, but sudden and marked improvements solely as result of a cover change are rare.

What does increase significantly, however, is your ability to get ads an to get other people to cross-promote you. Everyone loves eye candy.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I'm glad it's not just me. I've been at this since 2011, and the best I've done in a month was about $500. I write full-time only because I have an autoimmune disease that keeps me homebound. Like you said up thread, I've been doing a lot of analyzing to see where I've gone wrong and what I can do better. The best thing about being an author is we can always pivot and adjust what we're doing. I'm proud of everything I've accomplished but I'd love to pay all of our bills and buy a house. Someday!


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> You can always put your original back and see what happens. Over the years, I've seen several people do this.
> 
> This is another myth that gets a fair bit of airing time here: that better covers will result in more sales.
> 
> ...


It's tempting to revert as an experiment, but I'd be wary of upsetting the free cover design fairy 

That's an extremely good point about getting ads and cross-promotion with smarter covers. It's one reason why I'm happy for my shorter books and my piece about obscure 60s art cinema to stick with my own... enthusiastic efforts. That way I can save my sister in law's very limited time for when I've got something that's actually got a hope in hell of selling!


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## cecilia_writer (Dec 28, 2010)

elizabethbarone said:


> I'm glad it's not just me. I've been at this since 2011, and the best I've done in a month was about $500.


Me too - I used to think if I wrote more books my writing income would increase exponentially, but it's more a case of running faster to stay in the same place.
I am lucky that my day job is now part-time, and in theory I should have retired from it altogether by now, but on the other hand I do get some useful ideas from it, and I don't think I would write full-time even if I could, because I don't seem to write any more at weekends or on days off than I do on work days.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Artists who struggled and made nothing in their lifetime generally did not write genre fiction. Literary fiction is a different animal entirely. Genre writers have always written relatively quickly. Check out Agatha Christie's output sometime. Georgette Heyer's. Those women were good writers, and they're still read today--a lot. And they wrote fast.


There's a really great documentary on YouTube about writers from the Pulp Era: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzlbRjmWEQ8

I think it's honestly worth a watch. What struck me was how little things have changed -- those writers wrote until their fingers bled. Because they were writing genre fiction to sell. And that's really what most of us are doing right now.

As far as a measure of success. Right now I'm disabled and live on a very limited income. Full time work is out of the question. I can't do it. But working from home and making my own hours? That I can do. C Gockel is pretty much the author I'd want to be the most like. She makes a healthy living from writing what she wants. She also doesn't seem like a person who killing themselves in the process.

There's all kinds of ways to do this. Maybe it's the wisdom of turning 50 that's kicking in but there you have it. I hope my old man nattering made sense.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

I appreciate this thread as it is easy to get discouraged by comparing your results to those of others who appear to be killing it in the marketplace. 

I've only just started in the indie pub world (although writing wise I was published by a small press previously). My first and second book released in May, third this week, and there are 5 more set to go. I started this as a passion project about two years ago, writing something I thoroughly enjoyed and then wanted to see if it could be monetized on Amazon.

Looking back, I think I must have broken every rule in Chris Fox's book, "Write to Market" in producing this. It's cross genre, short in length, character driven instead of plot driven and has a funky premise to boot. I've since had to adjust my expectations on what to expect in terms of sales, but some days it's hard to tell if its worth while to keep going, or just write something to market, now that I know how (although I don't think I'd find it very enjoyable). 

My goal is to earn extra income by writing fun stories that I like. I have a very good career which I enjoy and appreciate, so I'm not looking to quit that, but I do have kids in private school and the extra income would do wonders for the family. So while hitting 100k a year would be amazing, I'd be happy with much much less. 

So right now, I'm on a journey to see if I can "make my own market" so to speak. Since I already have the stuff written its not like I'd be wasting my time, but I'd like to know from those who may have done this already, is it even possible to make your own market? 

And what are some of the indicators of something that is growing and is gaining an audience (albeit slowly) versus something that will just never take off? i.e. 1 or 2 sales versus 0 sales etc.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Going back to 2011, many pundits said that you'd be lucky to make $250 gross royalties on a book. On that basis, if correct, success is a low bar in royalty terms. 

As for writing as a business, I'd consider myself a failure, considering I have had many businesses in my lifetime that have been my main source of income and provided a good lifestyle. I've just looked at my gross earning from my 7 books to date and for this last 6 years it works at at $1,200 per annum. Of course, that's not profit as I have to deduct my production and marketing costs. That's hardly something I could call an amount for making a living. Luckily, my life in business has provided me with an income that I don't need to make a living from writing and I don't need to work, but even so it's only a modest living.

I have different measures of success. Initially it was just sitting down and completing a full length book. Then it was learning to format my own eBooks and print to the extent that I make more money from doing that now for clients than I do from writing. Just getting a book to market to me is an achievement.

The icing on the cake is someone simply buying your work and writing a decent review. That to me is my yardstick of success. Luckily, I have a thick skin to ignore the odd bad reviews.

It used to be that that I worked to live. Now I don't work to live, I live to work.

Would I like to make a living from writing... Yes, but that's not the only measure for success. Good luck to all those that do make a living and long may it continue for them.

Would I do anything differently... no. I'm doing what I love. How successful is that?


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Eugene Kirk said:


> And what are some of the indicators of something that is growing and is gaining an audience (albeit slowly) versus something that will just never take off? i.e. 1 or 2 sales versus 0 sales etc.


Here's how I now would gauge that. Sell-through to book two. To me, that's it. If you put out Book One, and you promote it enough, and it's free when you promote it, you can get eyeballs on your work. No problem. But if there's only 1 or 2% sell-through from your free run or permafree book from Book One to Book Two, it's time to either do some serious revamping of both books or call it a day and start on something new. At that point, you pretty much know that there's some problem with Book One, so, if you want the series to continue, you have to figure out that problem.

In romance, I had five series. In two of my series, my first two series, the sell-through from permafree Book One to Book Two was somewhere between 10-15%. On the other three, it was between 1 and 3%. At some point, I figured out that I could promote Book One of those three series until the cows came home, and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference. In fact, in one of those series, I finally scored a BookBub on Book One, and it was the most disappointing BookBub for me, ever, by an order of magnitude. The downloads were anemic on the BookBub and the sell-through as awful. I finally figured out that I was spinning my wheels on those three series. A lot of time and money down the drain. In hindsight, I probably should have quit each series after I saw the anemic sell-through from Book One to Book Two, but I didn't - I kept on going, thinking that they just needed exposure and a better marketing plan. Eh, not so much.

On my current series, I don't exactly know the sell-through from Book to Book, as all of my books are in also-boughts and lists, so people are picking up each one organically, but it's comforting to see that they all sell about the same amount. I think that means that people are buying all of my books once they read one, so I'm staying on this series like white on rice. But if there was a drop-off from Book One to Book Two, I would have abandoned this series long ago and tried something else. Fool me once...


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> Here's how I now would gauge that. Sell-through to book two. To me, that's it. If you put out Book One, and you promote it enough, and it's free when you promote it, you can get eyeballs on your work. No problem. But if there's only 1 or 2% sell-through from your free run or permafree book from Book One to Book Two, it's time to either do some serious revamping of both books or call it a day and start on something new. At that point, you pretty much know that there's some problem with Book One, so, if you want the series to continue, you have to figure out that problem.
> 
> In romance, I had five series. In two of my series, my first two series, the sell-through from permafree Book One to Book Two was somewhere between 10-15%. On the other three, it was between 1 and 3%. At some point, I figured out that I could promote Book One of those three series until the cows came home, and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference. In fact, in one of those series, I finally scored a BookBub on Book One, and it was the most disappointing BookBub for me, ever, by an order of magnitude. The downloads were anemic on the BookBub and the sell-through as awful. I finally figured out that I was spinning my wheels on those three series. A lot of time and money down the drain. In hindsight, I probably should have quit each series after I saw the anemic sell-through from Book One to Book Two, but I didn't - I kept on going, thinking that they just needed exposure and a better marketing plan. Eh, not so much.
> 
> On my current series, I don't exactly know the sell-through from Book to Book, as all of my books are in also-boughts and lists, so people are picking up each one organically, but it's comforting to see that they all sell about the same amount. I think that means that people are buying all of my books once they read one, so I'm staying on this series like white on rice. But if there was a drop-off from Book One to Book Two, I would have abandoned this series long ago and tried something else. Fool me once...


Thanks Annie, this is exactly the kind of yard stick I'm looking for. I haven't gone as far as the free book thing yet, and I probably don't have enough data to calculate my real sell through rate for paid books, but I'm writing down those numbers as benchmarks. What was the performance of the two series that had the 10~15% read through?


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

anniejocoby said:


> Here's how I now would gauge that. Sell-through to book two. To me, that's it. If you put out Book One, and you promote it enough, and it's free when you promote it, you can get eyeballs on your work. No problem. But if there's only 1 or 2% sell-through from your free run or permafree book from Book One to Book Two, it's time to either do some serious revamping of both books or call it a day and start on something new. At that point, you pretty much know that there's some problem with Book One, so, if you want the series to continue, you have to figure out that problem.


Quick questions to Annie or really anyone.

First. Do you use betas? Real betas like the ones that will give you a real response before you publish the book?
If so, did they help in judging how well your series have done? Like they might say "You know I don't really like this series, you might need to go back to the other stuff you were doing, etc."
I always thought Betas helped in this regard but I know there are many people who don't use them.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

jlstovall4 said:


> First. Do you use betas? Real betas like the ones that will give you a real response before you publish the book?
> If so, did they help in judging how well your series have done? Like they might say "You know I don't really like this series, you might need to go back to the other stuff you were doing, etc."
> I always thought Betas helped in this regard but I know there are many people who don't use them.


Earlier in my development as a writer I used a lot of betas and workshoppers to help read and review my stories. Over time, as my craft improved, the comments I got from my betas and workshoppers became more opinion than anything actionable I could use to improve. Partly because I didn't find new betas or workshoppers who were farther ahead of me on craft, but partly because indie publishing opened up and the most important reader became much more readily accessible--the reading public.

Now I have one trusted reader who reads my stuff after I've called it done, and then it goes to an editor before publication. I have confidence in my work, and in knowing that the story I just wrote is the best I can make it given my skillset at the time, and I know I'm learning and growing after every story. All I can do is the best I can do. A beta reader's not going to add or subtract from that.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Thanks Annie, this is exactly the kind of yard stick I'm looking for. I haven't gone as far as the free book thing yet, and I probably don't have enough data to calculate my real sell through rate for paid books, but I'm writing down those numbers as benchmarks. What was the performance of the two series that had the 10~15% read through?


As of the end of 2016, my best-selling series, Broken, had 266,000+ free downloads for Book One, and 31,562 sales of Book Two, 60,000+ sold of the series - 12% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. My second best-selling series, Illusions, had 202,000+ DLs and 21,000 Book Twos sold - 11% sell-through from Book One to Book Two, 45,000+ for the series, which has four books, including a prequel that didn't sell that much - only a few thousand of that prequel sold. BTW, by this metric, my most popular book I have ever written was my second book, Deeper Illusions, because that book has a 90% sell-through to the next book. I'm still kinda blown away by that, to think that 90% of the people who start that book finish it and buy the next one.

By contrast, my lowest-selling series, Fearless, had 72,019 DLs and 3,159 book twos sold, 6,149 sold for the entire series - 4% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. My second-lowest series, Exposure, had 33,000 DLs and 1,621 books two sold, 3,877 for the series - 5% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. Temptations, my last series under my Annie name, had 40,600 DL, 1530 Book Twos sold, 2,968 books of the series sold - 3.7% sell-through. I guess that last one was my worst one, overall. The only reason these sell-throughs were as high as they were was because of Apple, which has a MUCH higher sell-through from Book One to Book Two than with Amazon, although their free downloads are always less overall as well.

Actually, the sell-through rates weren't as anemic as I thought they were on those last three series, but they weren't great, either. I think that I was basing my 1-3% number on my promotional sell-throughs, which were always lower than my organic sell-throughs. They averaged out to better numbers than I thought, but they still weren't worth continuing, in my book.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

jlstovall4 said:


> Quick questions to Annie or really anyone.
> 
> First. Do you use betas? Real betas like the ones that will give you a real response before you publish the book?
> If so, did they help in judging how well your series have done? Like they might say "You know I don't really like this series, you might need to go back to the other stuff you were doing, etc."
> I always thought Betas helped in this regard but I know there are many people who don't use them.


Yeah, but my Betas were off my mailing list, which didn't help me at all. The ones who signed up for my Beta team and actually completed the critiques were already fans who loved everything I wrote, so they loved these books, too. I probably should have cast a wider net to find people who weren't too keen on my writing and see what they thought. It probably would have saved me some time and tears.


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> Earlier in my development as a writer I used a lot of betas and workshoppers to help read and review my stories. Over time, as my craft improved, the comments I got from my betas and workshoppers became more opinion than anything actionable I could use to improve. Partly because I didn't find new betas or workshoppers who were farther ahead of me on craft, but partly because indie publishing opened up and the most important reader became much more readily accessible--the reading public.
> 
> Now I have one trusted reader who reads my stuff after I've called it done, and then it goes to an editor before publication. I have confidence in my work, and in knowing that the story I just wrote is the best I can make it given my skillset at the time, and I know I'm learning and growing after every story. All I can do is the best I can do. A beta reader's not going to add or subtract from that.





anniejocoby said:


> Yeah, but my Betas were off my mailing list, which didn't help me at all. The ones who signed up for my Beta team and actually completed the critiques were already fans who loved everything I wrote, so they loved these books, too. I probably should have cast a wider net to find people who weren't too keen on my writing and see what they thought. It probably would have saved me some time and tears.


Thanks for these responses. Right now my betas are quick to tell me--"Nope that sucks, rework it." I'm hoping that they help me avoid a few pitfalls. I definitely wanted to see if that method helped others. I do pay my betas as well as my editor who also tells me where my books need rework. I tried free betas, but I'm not out there enough to get lots of people to read my work. Of the (unpaid) few that I do have, I always encourage them to give me the hardest critique they can.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> As of the end of 2016, my best-selling series, Broken, had 266,000+ free downloads for Book One, and 31,562 sales of Book Two, 60,000+ sold of the series - 12% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. My second best-selling series, Illusions, had 202,000+ DLs and 21,000 Book Twos sold - 11% sell-through from Book One to Book Two, 45,000+ for the series, which has four books, including a prequel that didn't sell that much - only a few thousand of that prequel sold. BTW, by this metric, my most popular book I have ever written was my second book, Deeper Illusions, because that book has a 90% sell-through to the next book. I'm still kinda blown away by that, to think that 90% of the people who start that book finish it and buy the next one.
> 
> By contrast, my lowest-selling series, Fearless, had 72,019 DLs and 3,159 book twos sold, 6,149 sold for the entire series - 4% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. My second-lowest series, Exposure, had 33,000 DLs and 1,621 books two sold, 3,877 for the series - 5% sell-through from Book One to Book Two. Temptations, my last series under my Annie name, had 40,600 DL, 1530 Book Twos sold, 2,968 books of the series sold - 3.7% sell-through. I guess that last one was my worst one, overall. The only reason these sell-throughs were as high as they were was because of Apple, which has a MUCH higher sell-through from Book One to Book Two than with Amazon, although their free downloads are always less overall as well.
> 
> Actually, the sell-through rates weren't as anemic as I thought they were on those last three series, but they weren't great, either. I think that I was basing my 1-3% number on my promotional sell-throughs, which were always lower than my organic sell-throughs. They averaged out to better numbers than I thought, but they still weren't worth continuing, in my book.


Thanks for all those great numbers Annie. They seem incredibly high from where I'm looking now. Over what kind of time period were those books out leading up to 2016?


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## TStraker (Apr 20, 2017)

Thank you for your post. 

I would love to be a massive success financially, as I'm sure most would. But honestly, making a living writing and not having to work a day job is a dream come true in itself even if you have to live off Raman noodles. I have a job that is such a slog - 5 days a week and I've been doing it for 20 years. I really have to carve out writing time, super prioritize it. 

Being able to support myself and my beloved dog on writing alone even at the lowest end of the scale would be the most incredible dream come true ever. And a curry house nearby would be awesome too! I love curry. Especially British curry, which I miss dreadfully. 

I will always reach for the highest level, but I have also learned about myself that when I write, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea - because of the violence and the swearing - I write the best piece of work that I can so that I love it. 

I listen to Ray Bradbury when I feel like I might be losing hope. He loved writing so much. Just loved it! Words and metaphors. He went on and on about it. His writing hygiene, I believe he called it - the reading of poems and essays and novels and screenplays.  He is endlessly inspiring to listen to.  

And if I recall correctly he couldn't even afford a car until he was almost 40. His wife made a vow of poverty when they got married because he just wasn't going to give it up - no matter what. 

Success comes at different times for different people. If it comes too soon sometimes it destroys careers. Personally I hope for a long career, even if it feels like a slow start at this time. I know where my love lies and I follow my heart. 

T
<3


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Thanks for all those great numbers Annie. They seem incredibly high from where I'm looking now. Over what kind of time period were those books out leading up to 2016?


Fearless was published in late 2014-early 2015. Exposure was 2015 and Temptations 2016. So, the numbers might seem high, but, considering that Fearless was out for almost two years by the time I calculated my numbers (I always do a calculation in November of each year), that's not great. Exposure had been completed for about a year and a half by that time. Temptations, less than a year. The other two series were published in 2013 and 2014. Illusions had three BookBubs, which account for the high number of freebies downloaded, and Broken had two.

And, as I noted, the sell-through numbers were higher than I thought because of Apple skewing the averages. Apple typically provides twice the sell-through, but half the free downloads, so it evens out, numbers-wise, but, percentage-wise, it skews things. I hope that makes sense! If you're Amazon-only, you might see lower sell-through numbers than those, although I'm not sure, taking KU into account.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Annie, we need a like button for posts like yours! Thank you for sharing.


Indeed! Thanks so much for sharing Annie. Knowing what various norms are certainly helps to put your own results into perspective.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Lorri Moulton said:


> Annie, we need a like button for posts like yours! Thank you for sharing.





Eugene Kirk said:


> Indeed! Thanks so much for sharing Annie. Knowing what various norms are certainly helps to put your own results into perspective.


You're welcome. I hope this helped! I try to help by showing my "failures" along with my "successes."


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Every once in a while, there's a thread on KB I bookmark for posterity. This one and the 100K one are the winners for this month. Thanks to the OPs and to everyone who contributed.

I'm nowhere near earning what I would like to make (50K/year) but hope to be there in three or four years. Of course, I'd be happy to make boatloads more, but I also recognize that will require significant changes in how I work and write—and perhaps what I write. Maybe it's possible—maybe not.

For me, writing is hard and slow. I can't sign-off/walk away/leave alone a single written paragraph without having heard it out-loud multiple times (seriously, tens of times) Multiply that by all the corrections that get made and you have the pace of a glacier melting. I actually play scenes out in my head like a movie as I painstakingly write—and then re-write them in slow-motion.

I genre-jump. I started out writing post-apoc and ended up with a technothriller...so now I have a post-apoc technothriller...with some very low temperature romance thrown in for good measure. Pretty sure that isn't 'writing to market'. 

I'm cheap. I won't commit to spending on marketing and 'polish' without the sales. But without the marketing and polish, probably won't have the sales.

I recognize all of this and don't care—yet. Because the nice thing about writing is that for the most part, books have a long best-before date. Sure, most of the best-seller lists are full of new books but there are still plenty of 'older' books making decent money. For now, I'll stay patient and hope for the best. As long as I continue to see progress in both my writing and my audience—regardless of how slow, I'll keep investing time (and maybe some money) in getting better.

I waited 50+ years to be an author. I can wait a few to make a living at it


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

This is such a great thread.

I estimate I've made about $30,000 from my books. That's spread over 5 years, so $6,000/year on average. It's certainly not enough to live on, but it's not chump change either. During that period, my family moved across the country three times, so expenses where high, and my husband and I both had years of reduced day-job income. What my writing brought in made a difference, and it's all gravy, since I never would've gotten published traditionally. Indie is awesome.


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## Laran Mithras (Nov 22, 2016)

I'm seeing some contention to the "write to market" ethos. I am ambivalent towards such, yet lean towards "write your heart."

Certainly, money can be made writing to market. Lots of it. If money is our goal, then this is the way to go.

Yet new genres and niches can't be found if we're chasing the latest fad. Who makes the new fad? Definitely not one who chases the market. Meaning those who "write to market" will never find or discover that explosive new idea that propels them to stardom.

The choice then is: write for security, or write your dreams. Security will give you an income. Dreams will only offer - at best - a chance at something greater.

I write 66% market and 34% dreams. To some, that means a third of my effort is wasted.

We'll see.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Laran Mithras said:


> I'm seeing some contention to the "write to market" ethos. I am ambivalent towards such, yet lean towards "write your heart."
> 
> Certainly, money can be made writing to market. Lots of it. If money is our goal, then this is the way to go.
> 
> ...


I don't quite see it this way. Doing writing at all is "write your heart" to me. The pleasure of writing fiction, of creating a completed story is so incredibly joy making that I don't mind in the slightest trying to write to the desire of my readers. So, I do attempt "write to market", but I don't think I'm very good at it yet.

Also "write for security or write for your dreams" doesn't fit me either. My dreams are tied to my real life, to be able to take my kids on a magical holiday or get a house right by the park . So when I write for my dreams it is the same thing as writing for security. I do want to make more money, but I feel so happy that I can do it by writing fun stories not by sitting in a legal office typing boring contracts.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

A J Sika said:


> Just have to say Melinda, your covers for Cedar Hollow are in one word; Magnificent. And the blurbs make me just want to take out my credit card. I can see why they did well. I hope things pick up again soon.


Thanks so much! Back when I first had them done the artist was a college student. I think I was probably one of her first clients. Now she's out of college and growing fast. I'll post a link if I'm allowed.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Laran Mithras said:


> I'm seeing some contention to the "write to market" ethos. I am ambivalent towards such, yet lean towards "write your heart."
> 
> Certainly, money can be made writing to market. Lots of it. If money is our goal, then this is the way to go.
> 
> ...


You seem to be confusing "writing to market" with "chasing the latest fad." You _do _realize they aren't the same thing, don't you?


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

LadyG said:


> You seem to be confusing "writing to market" with "chasing the latest fad." You _do _realize they aren't the same thing, don't you?


^this^

Covers should chase the fads...I mean trends...I mean, should show the genre.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm going to post an update here seeing as this post has reared it's head again a year later.

I'm now making* less* than I was.

But I took the decision that my young adult books, while popular, were not a big enough market. They are aimed at younger teens and ebooks just aren't their medium.

So I started a brand new name in a new genre. So far (with only three books out and one on pre-order), it hasn't made much impact. It's a more competitive market, but I still think it was the right decision (most of the time). Financially, it's crippling me right now, but writing is a long game and I intend to be around for a long time.

Perseverance is key in publishing.


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

I missed this thread last year. Was busy with the day job and my family. I read every post and it was a real eye opener. I draw a lot of inspiration from those of you who find a certain satisfaction in your own level, or measure, of success and not what others define for the industry as a whole.  I've also noticed some wonderful pieces of advice buried here and plan to employ them forthwith. My own earnings chart is like a roller coaster, but I can at least point to each high and low with a degree of certainty and know the cause of each.  For now, while any financial compensation is wonderful, I'm most moved by feedback from readers who love the stories I tell. Can't put a price tag on that.


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## A.A (Mar 30, 2012)

I really dislike any terms that define an author by how much they're making. My favourite book that I've written has made me the least money.
It's a fine balance sometimes between being inspired by seeing how much it's possible to make in a genre/sub-genre and feeling defeated by a feeling of not being able to 'get there'.

I agree with the above two posters (Evenstar and Salvador) that perseverance is key and this business is a rollercoaster (even if sales are steady, there will be ups and downs). I've had huge ups and huge downs (releasing a book to crickets) and it's hard to _just keep swimming_ when it feels like you're drowning.

Financially, I had a good 2014, a bleak 2015, an incredible 2016, a great 2017. In personal terms, 2017 was a hard year. I homeschooled my youngest child, which was rewarding for both of us but meant I could only write at night. In the last months of 2017, I went through the illness and loss of my father. I didn't write anything for months, and came close to the point of throwing it all in and not writing again.

There _will_ be up and downs in your writing journey. And if you're at a bleak point, remember that things can rapidly change with a new book, a new series, a change of genre, a change in strategy or just a change in personal circumstance that gives you more time in which to write.


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## mscusse (Feb 18, 2018)

Lorri Moulton said:


> My mom proofs my stories and my husband helps me with the few fight scenes. When all else fails, I go watch _The Matrix_ or _Firefly_.
> 
> Seneca42...nothing wrong with focusing on craft. I don't write to market, I write for me. And I'm proud of that, but I also try not to complain if I have low numbers of sales. I'm just writing. When I have more books completed, I'll try more marketing.
> 
> ...


I'm with you! My first book, which I'm currently working on, is 100% about my passions, and not necessarily something that will sell well (it probably won't even sell 3 copies).

But I do dream that someday I'll strike a chord with the right person and find success. That I'll get my home by the sea and write all day long. That I'll never have to cry myself to sleep worrying about bills.

My mom seems to think I'm going to write the next Harry Potter. We'll see, I guess.


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## Simon Haynes (Mar 14, 2011)

It was only 3 months ago I was telling my mum I was done with writing. She'd just finished reading the last of my middle-grade novels to my nephews and they wanted the next.

Things change quickly - I wrote 2 complete novels in February/March, and I'm halfway through the next.


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## solo (Dec 19, 2017)

Decon said:


> Going back to 2011, many pundits said that you'd be lucky to make $250 gross royalties on a book. On that basis, if correct, success is a low bar in royalty terms.
> 
> As for writing as a business, I'd consider myself a failure, considering I have had many businesses in my lifetime that have been my main source of income and provided a good lifestyle. I've just looked at my gross earning from my 7 books to date and for this last 6 years it works at at $1,200 per annum. Of course, that's not profit as I have to deduct my production and marketing costs. That's hardly something I could call an amount for making a living. Luckily, my life in business has provided me with an income that I don't need to make a living from writing and I don't need to work, but even so it's only a modest living.
> 
> ...


Love that last line.

Success does have its downsides. Expectations go up, impostor syndrome comes knocking, and a tiny voice keeps on saying- you're just lucky, bub! Even after your 3rd novel with respectable sales and reviews.

Fortunately, I just like writing and telling stories.


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## CJRobertsonBooks (Jan 23, 2018)

This may be an old post but it is something I definitely needed to read today.

Today is the launch of my 5th book and nothing has happened. Between these five books I barely make $10 a month, excluding audiobook sales. I worked really hard on this new book, harder than the last ones and still nothing. I really want writing to work for me because I put in more than 40 hours a week, even with a full time job and going to college. 

I just keep holding onto the thought that I just need a little more time. Thank you for this post.


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## MyCatDoesNotConsent (Sep 11, 2017)

Я не согласен с новым TOS


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


This made me laugh so much - thank you!


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## CJRobertsonBooks (Jan 23, 2018)

Evelyn Alexie said:


> I'm curious--what is the thinking behind having "Blank Page" listed in the TOC? It's it like one of those "this page left intentionally blank" requirements? I haven't seen that before.


Im not exactly sure what you are referring to?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

CJRobertsonBooks said:


> Im not exactly sure what you are referring to?


Go to your Look Inside for Sculpting Murders. In the Table of Contents, it reads:

Blank Page
Another Free Book
Blank Page
Blank Page
Blank Page
Chapter 1
Blank Page

And so forth.


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## CJRobertsonBooks (Jan 23, 2018)

SevenDays said:


> Go to your Look Inside for Sculpting Murders. In the Table of Contents, it reads:
> 
> Blank Page
> Another Free Book
> ...


Oh, that is because my pages are mislabeled and the TOC is auto generated. I need to fix that because it looks horrible ahah. I do not recommend doing as I did.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2018)

CJRobertsonBooks said:


> Today is the launch of my 5th book and nothing has happened. Between these five books I barely make $10 a month...


You might want to possibly reconsider your pricing structure. Personally I wouldn't pay $3.99 for a short from an unknown. Nor would I pay over $8 for a short novel/novella from the same unknown. For example, I'm outside the US and your title She's the Key displays a price of over $8 for me. Is there a reason why you made the international prices so high when it appears to be USD3.99?


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I have been self-publishing since August of 2011. In 2015, I finally made "a living" with a total of about $40,000 for that year. At the time, I had two series out. House of Pleasure, the first book in There Was a House got a Bookbub for March 2015 and I made $10,000 in one month on sell-throughs. The money was good all year. In previous years, I would get bursts of sell-throughs from Bookbubs if Gastien was promoted free and on sales if it was promoted at .99, but not nearly close to $10,000. I would make about $3,000 from the promotion in total.  Combined with steady but low monthly sales I suppose I made about $5,000 to $8,00 until I hit that 2015 year.

Then Bookbub stopped choosing me. Lots more people were applying, and Gastien had been promoted so often it didn't pay to promote it there anymore. I got another series out (THe Avengement Series), but that hasn't been accepted, either.

In 2016, I made a total of $9,000, which sucked after making what I had in 2015. I think Gastien ran that year, but like I say it had been promoted so much I did only a little blip.

In 2017, I made $5,000 on my books. This is with an additional series under a pen name, and a new book, Candy, the first in yet another psychological thriller series. Candy is far and away the best work I have done, yet it has sold the most poorly. For some reason this book won't move. I'm very frustrated with it. I would like to find a way to reach out to rock 'n' roll fans, as the series is based on characters that are rockers, and this first book is based on the lyrics to Iggy Pop's song, Candy, after once again watching the video that went with it back in the 90s when it came out. It's really a love song, but the video spooked me and I saw all kinds of possibilities. I had a blast writing it, and it's creepy and good. I paid to use the lyrics in the book. Nothing happened. I did get a Bookbub on the 2nd book in the Gastien Series, and made only about $500 from it after covering costs. I will never promote the 2nd or 3rd, etc in a series again through Bookbub. 

It has now been a year since Candy came out. I have only writen about 6,000 words of Rock 'n' Roll Psycho, the next in my Sex, Death, and Rock 'n' Roll series. I was devastated with the failure of Candy and frustrated that all the promotions I had used in the past (not just Bookbub) were getting diminishing returns...and yes I also used social media. I will eventually get this book out, but I'm thinking that since I'm not interesting in pushing out a book every 3 months nor am I interested in writing what the masses want, I will never acheive much more than maybe $500 to $1,000 a month. 

I envy authors who write because they simply love the process of writing and can switch to a genre that is popular, etc. I don't write because I love the process of writing. I write because I have stories I want to tell. I can't write decent stories if I am just trying to write because a genre is popular. I don't like to read romance. I don't care for vampires, werewolves, etc. etc. I like drama involving people. People are what is interesting to me, not vampires. Nor do I care about billionaire  S&M (S&M was done well with The Story of O back in the 70s, thank you.) I tried writing hardcore erotica, as I do write graphic sex and violence...but writing f books day after day also bores me. It isn't where my heart is. There are only so many ways to have sex and I would actually fall asleep writing once I had published a couple. The people who read them found them hot, but writing one sex scene after another got very redundant. Again, probably because it isn't the process of writing that I love, it's telling a story that I NEED to tell because it won't leave me alone unless I do. 

And so I'm stuck. I'm not willing to spend 8 to 12 hours a day writing, publishing, and promoting for $500 a month anymore. I'm not willing to do that for $100,000 a month. Nope. Life is too short. I learned that when I got breast cancer. I have a 6 year old grandson I want to enjoy as much as possible because soon he won't be all that interested in spending time with me. I paint. I have a funny, intelligent, fun, sexy husband I've been married to since out of high school, and I want to spend evenings and weekends with him. He won't always be here. Neither will I. Money isn't everything. I also was swimming 50 laps six days a week, lifting, yoga, and we dance a lot. Now I am injured from falling on concrete off of a stepstool, so I can't be too active. But I am working a seasonal job until the end June. Off until next Wed trying to heal, and perhaps I'll get some writing done.

But I'm done trying to "make it". All I wanted was to make about $2,000 or 3,000 a month. That isn't huge by a long shot. And since I can't seem to do it without spending a ridiculous amount of time of everything that goes with it, I guess I won't. Hell, if I have to give up everything else I love in order to make a living at this, it's as bad as multi-level marketing.  I have 18 novels out there, and I'm not willing to spend the majority of the rest of my time writing. There is so much more to life than just pushing out books, trying to catch some money. Screw it. Sorry if that sounds negative, I'm just saying I want more than my keyboard and a paycheck.

If I wanted to give up my life, I would go back into advertising sales and make a whole lot more than I make writing. But I don't want that. I'm old now, and I realize the importance of "now" after having that cancer. It did cause me to get that novel written (plus 17 more) but it also told me to enjoy many things, and not make myself a slave to anything. 

So perhaps for me that is success. Knowing what's important, telling stories I need to tell at my pace, and not worrying anymore about making a living at this. I remember one guy posting (who makes six figures A MONTH at this) that he wrote 10 hours a day at the beach, six days a week. To me, that is hell. People in my life matter to me a whole lot more than six figures a month. So do experiences. I'd rather be poor than make my whole life writing, publishing, and marketing.

I'll keep trying. My stories are good. Perhaps things will pick up again. But if they do, it will be on my terms. I wasn't supposed to make it in the advertising field where I was self-empolyed, either, but I did. I just found it soul draining. I should have always painted and written. Ah, well. It took experiences and knowing lots of interesting people to be able to tell the stories I tell. 

No one said it would be easy.  And so it goes.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Well said, Caddy. One of the best posts I've read here.


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## Donna White Glaser (Jan 12, 2011)

Caddy, I have had almost the exact experience you've described. 2015 was incredible and I was walking on air. I put another series out and added to my original base series, but 2016 and 2017 got worse and worse. I haven't entirely quit writing, but I took a serious morale dive. I don't really have any good advise, but I wanted to let you know that you are not alone.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

One of the best pieces of advice I've seen with respect to indie publishing is to "know your why."

For myself, I came up with a single goal ($$$) that overrides all others. I then decided upfront what I'd be willing to do to reach that goal.

This approach gave me clarity. It also prevented me from rationalizing circumstances (e.g. "_I didn't make $X last month, but I was able to work from home, so that's cool._").

Failure to reach goals always leaves clues. Clarity gives me the focus I need to investigate and resolve the problems.

I attribute my relative success to "knowing my why."


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I can appreciate "knowing your why" but it's also very important to "know your price". What are you willing to do to make it? I was fine doing this this full time to build a living. But after 7 years, I'm not willing to work 40, 50, 60, and more hours for $300 to $500. And part of it is I don't write to market and I don't use KU for the books in my name, I suppose. And I'm cool with that. I now understand there is a little luck involved and right now I'm not hitting that luck. THe hard work was done for quite some time, but not anymore. There is so much more I want to do with the rest of my life.

I remember one successful author on here asking how  bad do you want it? She went on to say she wrote every single spare minute she could, and was making a huge living. She wrote waiting for appointments. She wrote at her son's baseball games, sitting in the bleachers. See, I'm not willing to miss those moments. And if you are looking at your computer instead of the game you are missing most of the those moments. They never come back. Your son (or in my case, my grandson) would know he came in second to you because every time he glanced up, your face would be buried in your computer. Same with people who bury their face in their phone. To me, that isn't living. Time isn't your friend. If you're young, you think it is, but trust me, it is not.

And that's okay, if that is what you want. I get that some people want the paycheck more than anything. I don't. And I won't give up  everything else so I can say I'm a success. Not even a healthy share of that everything else. A paycheck won't stand by me if I get sick  or lonely. A paycheck doesn't keep me company at dinner or at someone's gig. A person I have loved well might. (That isn't guaranteed, either, which is what love is all about. Loving even if you end up not loved.) Having those people present and engaged with me means success to me.

So I've made it. Just in a different way than I think many are talking about here. They're a success, and so am I. THey wouldn't want my success over theirs, and vice versa.


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## Sebourn (Jun 18, 2016)

I publish a novel a year, and I write stand-alones.  What I write is usually horror, but the horror is (most of the time) subtle; there' as much mystery in my stories as outright horror.  My most recent release, a novella, is about marriage and mountaineering, with nary a ghost or ghoul to be found.

And I wonder why I haven't yet made a living at this.  

But at least what was once coffee money has grown to dinner money.  Maybe at some point my writing will start making the truck payment?


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## sophia ann (Jul 9, 2014)

thank you for this thread. And i think everyone is so right.  I know that loads of authors make soo much money a month, and when you compare yourself it can get you down. I roughly make £1500 a month, and I’m really happy with that. To me, that’s great.  I know it's not by a lot of peoples standards. So I’ve stopped comparing myself  I’m a lot happier this way. I don't publish fast, and i only have 3 books out. I love writing, so i don't want to lose that. Sometimes we can just be happy with how we’re doing.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

sophia ann said:


> thank you for this thread. And i think everyone is so right. I know that loads of authors make soo much money a month, and when you compare yourself it can get you down. I roughly make £1500 a month, and I'm really happy with that. To me, that's great. I know it's not by a lot of peoples standards. So I've stopped comparing myself  I'm a lot happier this way. I don't publish fast, and i only have 3 books out. I love writing, so i don't want to lose that. Sometimes we can just be happy with how we're doing.


Well said. And I love your covers.


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

Caddy said:


> In 2017, I made $5,000 on my books. This is with an additional series under a pen name, and a new book, Candy, the first in yet another psychological thriller series. Candy is far and away the best work I have done, yet it has sold the most poorly. For some reason this book won't move.


Sorry you're having trouble with sales, but the reason seems pretty obvious. For starters, the cover isn't right. Doesn't look like a psychological thriller at all. Secondly, the blurb reads more like a romance than a thriller. Fixing those could help because the writing is solid.


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## countwordsmith (Aug 13, 2015)

I used to make a huge amount per month before 2015 like many others. Now, I'm having to put out a book a month to keep the income to be enough to pay bills. I want to go back to the good old days. But honestly, I'm getting older, and I'm looking forward to a simpler life where my mortgage is paid off, I'm living off retirement, and I can write whatever pops into my head.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

PenNPaper said:


> Sorry you're having trouble with sales, but the reason seems pretty obvious. For starters, the cover isn't right. Doesn't look like a psychological thriller at all. Secondly, the blurb reads more like a romance than a thriller. Fixing those could help because the writing is solid.


I think perhaps you should know that unless someone specifically asks, unsolicited advice on covers, blurbs, etc., is not a good idea. (I know I didn't appreciate it when it happened to me.) And the poster you're referencing did not ask or feedback.


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## MattGodbey (Jul 8, 2016)

Sebourn said:


> I publish a novel a year, and I write stand-alones. What I write is usually horror, but the horror is (most of the time) subtle; there' as much mystery in my stories as outright horror. My most recent release, a novella, is about marriage and mountaineering, with nary a ghost or ghoul to be found.


Thanks to the OP for starting this thread. Lots of good info.

Mitch, just checked out your site and books. You've got a new fan (Memphis). Particularly like what I saw of your short stories.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Evenstar said:


> I _still _make that much (give or take). Even though I now have 20 books.
> 
> That sometimes depresses me, I have to keep going just to make the same amount each month as I did three years ago.


I'm trying to figure out what this means, and answer the implied question: "why?".

I see 4 books. Do you have a different pen name? Are your other books in a significantly different genre? How has the landscape changed since then? Have you continued to release books? Are you books too short? (longer books have longer legs, longer tails and make more in KU if you use it).

If you have multiple pen names in varying genres, you've probably missed out on the building effect of keeping everything in one place. You have multiple fan bases instead of one fan base. You've missed out on the critical mass there seems to be when your fan base becomes self-supporting. Split fan bases means split mailing lists, which also means when you launch a new book, you only get a fraction of the push you would have had if your 20 books were in one genre under one pen name. Longer series in the same genre also gets more readers in the long run. People like to see authors committed to a genre. Readers are more likely to start reading your books if they see you have a lot of backlist.

So, if there's a way to rectify these problems, you might see more commercial success.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Sebourn said:


> I publish a novel a year, and I write stand-alones. What I write is usually horror, but the horror is (most of the time) subtle; there' as much mystery in my stories as outright horror. My most recent release, a novella, is about marriage and mountaineering, with nary a ghost or ghoul to be found.
> 
> And I wonder why I haven't yet made a living at this.
> 
> But at least what was once coffee money has grown to dinner money. Maybe at some point my writing will start making the truck payment?


Keep your chin up. I just bought a new laptop with my royalty earnings from a measly handful of books. It's not an expensive computer but the point is that the books paid for me to be able to write more. It's little things like this (and dinner out) that make it exciting to be a writer.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Caddy said:


> I can appreciate "knowing your why" but it's also very important to "know your price". What are you willing to do to make it? I was fine doing this this full time to build a living. But after 7 years, I'm not willing to work 40, 50, 60, and more hours for $300 to $500. And part of it is I don't write to market and I don't use KU for the books in my name, I suppose. And I'm cool with that. I now understand there is a little luck involved and right now I'm not hitting that luck. THe hard work was done for quite some time, but not anymore. There is so much more I want to do with the rest of my life.
> 
> I remember one successful author on here asking how bad do you want it? She went on to say she wrote every single spare minute she could, and was making a huge living. She wrote waiting for appointments. She wrote at her son's baseball games, sitting in the bleachers. See, I'm not willing to miss those moments. And if you are looking at your computer instead of the game you are missing most of the those moments. They never come back. Your son (or in my case, my grandson) would know he came in second to you because every time he glanced up, your face would be buried in your computer. Same with people who bury their face in their phone. To me, that isn't living. Time isn't your friend. If you're young, you think it is, but trust me, it is not.
> 
> ...


Yes, so much yes. Life is short and our blissful existence can be turned upside down/inside out in an instant. Thank you for this lovely perspective.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Caddy said:


> I can appreciate "knowing your why" but it's also very important to "know your price". What are you willing to do to make it? I was fine doing this this full time to build a living. But after 7 years, I'm not willing to work 40, 50, 60, and more hours for $300 to $500. And part of it is I don't write to market and I don't use KU for the books in my name, I suppose. And I'm cool with that. I now understand there is a little luck involved and right now I'm not hitting that luck. THe hard work was done for quite some time, but not anymore. There is so much more I want to do with the rest of my life.
> 
> I remember one successful author on here asking how bad do you want it? She went on to say she wrote every single spare minute she could, and was making a huge living. She wrote waiting for appointments. She wrote at her son's baseball games, sitting in the bleachers. See, I'm not willing to miss those moments. And if you are looking at your computer instead of the game you are missing most of the those moments. They never come back. Your son (or in my case, my grandson) would know he came in second to you because every time he glanced up, your face would be buried in your computer. Same with people who bury their face in their phone. To me, that isn't living. Time isn't your friend. If you're young, you think it is, but trust me, it is not.
> 
> ...


I've been struggling with this sentiment the first four months of this year.

I used to be happy, and then I started writing.

Because I'm me, I always place huge expectations on myself and force myself to move heaven and earth to fulfill them. Writing is dangerous for me, because the only limits are the ones I impose on myself. The past few months I've been pretty stressed out, and writing has been my one and only priority. But it's not been fun at all.

So I took a step back and re-evaluated where I want to be and what making a living looks like. My first adjustment is no more writing on the weekends (although I might cheat on the final stretch of a book). We'll see if that helps.

I can see that being consumed with 'making it' as a writer causes every other accomplishment in my life to pale, which is unhealthy and flat out wrong.

I 'made it' when I married my wife. Everything after that has just been gravy.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> I've been struggling with this sentiment the first four months of this year.
> 
> I used to be happy, and then I started writing.
> 
> ...


Yes. You are of the same cloth I am. For us, success looks much different. I'm glad you are coming to this realization because if you are stressed and unhappy writing, you need to change things.  Good for you!


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## AnyaPavelle (Mar 19, 2018)

How sweet! I feel that way about my husband. I try to remind myself about that whenever I feel the need to complain about something trivial.



WyandVoidbringer said:


> I 'made it' when I married my wife. Everything after that has just been gravy.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

PenNPaper said:


> Sorry you're having trouble with sales, but the reason seems pretty obvious. For starters, the cover isn't right. Doesn't look like a psychological thriller at all. Secondly, the blurb reads more like a romance than a thriller. Fixing those could help because the writing is solid.


I dont mind the criticism. As a painter and writer I've developed fairly thick skin.  I've been thinking about the description and wondering if it sucked...kind of thought it might be too "soft" or nebulous. I need to fix it.

The cover, I'm not sure about. It fits the song and the video exactly. Why doesn't it say psychological thriller or pyscholgocial horror to you? Can you give me specific reasons? Would it help it perhaps blood dripped from the letters? What are you thinking would improve it?

Of course, I can spend money to fix the cover and fix the blurb...but the book is over a year old. it will still be sitting at the bottom of the search and I'm not sure it will help. Still, I am willing to listen to any suggestions about the cover. If you want me to give you background on what the story is about, please PM me so I don't take over this thread. In fact, we can continue this whole conversation that way, so this thread doesn't make me the center of attention.

Thanks.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> I'm trying to figure out what this means, and answer the implied question: "why?".
> 
> I see 4 books. Do you have a different pen name? Are your other books in a significantly different genre? How has the landscape changed since then? Have you continued to release books? Are you books too short? (longer books have longer legs, longer tails and make more in KU if you use it).
> 
> ...


Hi David, sorry, I've been here so long that I sometimes forget that people don't automatically know everything about me, lol.

I was writing under the name Stella Wilkinson, and I have 16 teen romances under that name. That's what I was making the money on, but it just wasn't growing. My first series was very popular but then it waned (it has been all out for a couple of years now) and none of the others really did as well as the first. (Sometimes I think I should have just kept writing 'Flirting Games' books until there were fifty of them!)

So I took the decision to move away from YA. The books that you see in my signature now are the new pen name and me _starting over_. It was a bit of a bold decision and I'm still scared of it, but I enjoy writing something with a bit more weight (they are historical fantasy even though I have branded them as PNR) and more in the genre that I personally read most.

I am aware that it will take some time to build up the new name and a backlist and a new mailing list, and thus also take time to build income with those books. I'm okay with that most of the time...

But if you have some good advice then I'm all ears?


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## Sebourn (Jun 18, 2016)

MattGodbey said:


> Thanks to the OP for starting this thread. Lots of good info.
> 
> Mitch, just checked out your site and books. You've got a new fan (Memphis). Particularly like what I saw of your short stories.


That's very kind. Thanks so much!


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

ParkerAvrile said:


> You're shadow banned because you made it too obvious what inspired your story. @Caddy you say flat out in the blurb you were inspired by this video. I've run across this before as a consultant/editor and it was absolutely for this reason- inspired by music lyrics. Books get sent straight to the basement & are mostly invisible if Amazon is unconfident they're original. If the book actually did well, they'd give you a copyright challenge/question, but you know? They get tired... so they shadow banned you and left you scratching your head about why nobody bought your book. They figured it wasn't worth the angst....
> 
> I'll tell you why nobody bought your book. They never knew it existed.
> 
> ...


Interesting. SO even though they can see right at the beginning of the book I have paid permission to use the lyrics, etc, they did this?


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## whuntsman (Apr 6, 2018)

Evenstar said:


> I felt kind of depressed after reading about the 100k authors thread, even though usually I love those threads. So I wanted to write a pick-me-up thread to inspire the people who come in the middle of those two groups.
> 
> Making a living means something different to everyone, and I need to remind myself constantly that I AM a success (so long as I don't spend too much time comparing myself to others, lol)
> 
> ...


Well said! Congratulations!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Evenstar said:


> But if you have some good advice then I'm all ears?


I do.

Nix the pen name and bring the lot under one name. You're fragmenting your audience (and your YA peeps, if they weren't middle-aged women would have grown up already) and most likely, these peeps love your style and a substantial number would come across. Or at least enough people to increase sales.

An author page with 20 books looks much more attractive than one with five, especially to big readers who get tired of having to look for yet another author to read.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> I do.
> 
> Nix the pen name and bring the lot under one name. You're fragmenting your audience (and your YA peeps, if they weren't middle-aged women would have grown up already) and most likely, these peeps love your style and a substantial number would come across. Or at least enough people to increase sales.
> 
> An author page with 20 books looks much more attractive than one with five, especially to big readers who get tired of having to look for yet another author to read.


Thanks Patty, appreciated 

I did try engaging with my list about the new stuff and got a weird backlash. It seems as though my YA readers are kind of religious! They didn't like vampires at all and told me so vocally, and also I had two moms email me to say how much they appreciated the fact that my old books are so clean and always bought them and could I please not encourage their daughters to read grown up romance with sex in it.

I could just ignore those few, but as my list is 100% organic they are all "true fans", and I feel like I should listen.

However, my YA name does have a PNR (clean) witch series, and I was thinking of shifting that over to my new name. So the new name would then have 8 books instead of 5. But then I got worried about diluting my new brand with a YA series. Sigh...

I know I'm splitting my audience even more, but I honestly think the younger end of the YA market is a hopeless for long term security and I was just going to let that name fade. Or not... I don't know, maybe keep putting out the occasional Flirting Games novella?

Ha ha! When I type it out like this, I can see how much I'm floundering right now!


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## Lisa5 (Oct 23, 2012)

Where is this 100K thread? I can't find it at all.


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## PermaStudent (Apr 21, 2015)

Lisa5 said:


> Where is this 100K thread? I can't find it at all.


Both this thread and the 100k thread referenced in the top post are older (from June 2017). I think this is the 100k post Evenstar was referencing (?): https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,252168.0.html



Evenstar said:


> I did try engaging with my list about the new stuff and got a weird backlash. It seems as though my YA readers are kind of religious! They didn't like vampires at all and told me so vocally, and also I had two moms email me to say how much they appreciated the fact that my old books are so clean and always bought them and could I please not encourage their daughters to read grown up romance with sex in it.
> 
> I could just ignore those few, but as my list is 100% organic they are all "true fans", and I feel like I should listen.


I started much cleaner and directed to a younger audience. All of my stuff has fantasy/paranormal elements, but my most popular series is all telepaths and no vampires/werewolves/etc. It does attract those who prefer a "cleaner" book for themselves or their kids, and I've had fanmails and reviews similar to what you describe.

I also write stuff with more adult themes and language under the same name. If you make sure your cover and blurb reflect a different and more adult series, it filters out a lot of those readers who might be offended. I'm not going to say I've never had someone go from my cleaner series to my grittier one and write me an offended note about it--it's happened. Others have read my full catalog and written me that they loved all of it.

Keeping it under the same name means my readers can find all of my books. Appropriate covers and blurbs make sure that when readers find my other books, they can make an informed decision about whether a book suits them or not. If a reader proceeds with a book that obviously wasn't for them from the start... Well, there's not much any author can do about that.



Patty Jansen said:


> I do.
> 
> Nix the pen name and bring the lot under one name. You're fragmenting your audience (and your YA peeps, if they weren't middle-aged women would have grown up already) and most likely, these peeps love your style and a substantial number would come across. Or at least enough people to increase sales.
> 
> An author page with 20 books looks much more attractive than one with five, especially to big readers who get tired of having to look for yet another author to read.


And I very much agree with Patty: most of your readers are already adult women or soon will be, and their genre preferences are expanding and maturing. If you're not telling them about these other books, you've already made their decision for them. Let them decide for themselves.


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