# Got contacted by Mark Gottlieb of Trident Media in NYC...



## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Got this in my author email today (I added the bolded italics). Looks legit. The email seems to check out. Mark Gottlieb seems to check out. Trident Media Group (New York, not DC or LA) seems to check out. Their website checks out. Okay. I believe the basics, I think.

But do I believe their claims? Are they really as big and effective as they say?

Message Details:
Name Literary Agent Mark Gottlieb
Subject Prospect of Literary Representation
Message Dear David, Congratulations on the Hugo nomination! Might you be interested in the prospect of literary representation into major trade publishing? To tell you a little bit about our literary agency, which _*closes more deals for authors than any other agency worldwide: *_tridentmediagroup.com Trident Media Group (TMG) is a prominent literary agency located in New York City that originally formed in 2000. TMG represents over 1,000 bestselling and emerging authors in a range of genres of fiction and nonfiction, many of whom have appeared on the New York Times Best Sellers Lists and have won major awards and prizes, including the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Award, the National Book Critics Circle Award, the P.E.N. Faulkner Award, the P.E.N. Hemingway Award, The Booker Prize, and the L.A. Times Book Award, among others. TMG is one of the world's leading, largest and most diversified literary agencies. For more than ten consecutive years, TMG continues to rank number one for sales according to publishersmarketplace.com in North America. TMG is the only U.S. literary agency to consistently be in the top ten in both UK fiction and UK non-fiction and has ranked as highly as number one in UK fiction deals. I look forward to hearing from you. All the best, Mark Mark Gottlieb Literary Agent Trident Media Group, LLC 41 Madison Avenue, Floor 36 New York, NY 10010 www.tridentmediagroup.com

And, I'm doing six figures as an indie. I'd like to get better representation in the traditional print channels and/or foreign rights, TV and movie options, etc., but I'm leery of giving up too much control. I've tried to educate myself about traditional publishing (reading KKR's business blogs, for example) but I know I have a lot to learn. Is there anyone here who's started as a successful indie and moved into being a hybrid with the tradpubs? What are the pitfalls? My initial instinct is to be very cautious, as if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But the Hugo nomination could open up opportunities like this, so what do I do with it? I'd love to only sell print rights, the way Hugh Howey did, or some foreign language rights, and hang on to my ebook rights, as I believe I can do better and keep more by managing them myself. Audiobooks are a possibility.

Thoughts?


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

They're about as legit as it gets. If Gottlieb is interested it's a Pretty Big Deal and he seriously thinks the agency can do a lot for you. I'd at least talk to the guy and see what he has to say.

They are big. They are very, very effective.


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## JamesOsiris (Mar 23, 2014)

Seconded. Trident are one of the biggest agencies around.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

I just want to say congrats! Well done.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I just want to say congrats! Well done.


Thanks. As we poker players say, I've tried to put myself into a position to get lucky, and it seems I have. Or, as another quote goes, it takes years to become an overnight success. I submitted a story to a Jerry Pournelle anthology (There Will Be War X), got accepted, then suddenly got nominated for a Hugo in a relatively easier category (novelette - novels, novellas and short stories seem much more competitive), and boom, somebody notices me after 4 years and 25 books as an indie...

I'll be going to WorldCon in KC, but I don't think I have a snowball's chance of winning...not with a Stephen King novelette in there. But the nom is nice, and the networking will be nice.


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## JR. (Dec 10, 2014)

Congrats Dave, both on the nomination and these opportunities.



David VanDyke said:


> I'd love to only sell print rights, the way Hugh Howey did, or some foreign language rights, and hang on to my ebook rights, as I believe I can do better and keep more by managing them myself. Audiobooks are a possibility.


Please let us know how this goes. This just seems like the best of both worlds and I'd love to know that it's an option for some indies in the future. I don't know how many of the things Hugh Howey did are possible any more...


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> I'll be going to WorldCon in KC...


So will I. Maybe we should have a KBoards breakfast meeting or something.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> So will I. Maybe we should have a KBoards breakfast meeting or something.


Sounds like a plan. I'll be there for the whole week, Tuesday through Monday, though I got a room off-site and a rental car to save more than 50%...hopefully parking costs won't kill my plan.

As for how Hugh Howey did it...my theory is, everything is negotiable, depending on how bad who wants what. I wouldn't give up my ebook rights on my backlist without a huge deal. I might for a new book, if it were a big enough deal. But, it would really have to be a no-kidding 6-figure deal, because a new series book 1 will probably gross me $100K over the next 2-3 years, not counting sequels. As I said, I'm really more interested in some form of print only deal, even if it had only a small advance, as I'm convinced I can do just fine with my own ebooks.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Congratulations and it sounds like you've got a firm grasp of what you want and what you're worth. That puts you head and shoulders above many who get the email.


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## barbie888 (Aug 26, 2013)

Congrats! You're proof that hard work does pay off.


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## Indecisive (Jun 17, 2013)

Congratulations on the Hugo nomination!

And yes, Trident is for real. I remember submitting stuff to them back when I was on that hamster wheel.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

He's sent this email to lots of bestselling indie authors. It seems like he's trolling the lists for people who might need representation. I'd make sure to ask a ton of questions before getting involved, since it was pretty clear to some of us who were contacted he had zero idea about our work etc. (He didn't even do the 10 second search on me it would have taken to see I was already agented, ha).

An agent can be useful, but make sure it is someone familiar with your work and your goals who will work FOR you.  I personally am wary of any agent who has to send form letters to drum up clients.


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## Sandy Raven (Jan 11, 2014)

SevenDays said:


> They're about as legit as it gets. If Gottlieb is interested it's a Pretty Big Deal and he seriously thinks the agency can do a lot for you. I'd at least talk to the guy and see what he has to say.
> 
> They are big. They are very, very effective.


Exactly this. Your nomination is what put you on their radar. If you want representation, they're worth talking to. And if it's not, there's no harm in saying "Thanks, but no thanks."


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## Jane Killick (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm no expert here, but I think it's at least worth a conversation. Just go in being clear about what you want. And if you end up signing a contract, get someone like The Passive Guy to look over it for you.

Going trad didn't do badly for Andy Weir and the aforementioned Hugh Howey.

Not sure a publisher will accept a print-only deal these days, but might be worth going trad for a new book/series.

Also, listen to what Annie says. She _knows_ stuff.

Brilliant news about your Hugo nom. Best of luck and have a blast at Worldcon


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## Marilyn Peake (Aug 8, 2011)

Congratulations! Trident Media Group represents some incredible authors. It can't hurt to talk to them, see what they have in mind. You could always talk to Hugh Howey and Andy Weir, get their advice on agents and movie deals and hybrid publishing.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

An agent should be supporting your career; that includes your self-publishing choices. Ask them what they think of self-publishing and if they foresee any problems with you continuing to do so (I'm assuming you want too?). See what the contract is like; can you get out with 30 days written notice? What's their cut? Will they consider paperback only deals? (You keep ebook rights). Make sure they don't charge anything up front. 

*I'm a hybrid author.


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> Sounds like a plan. I'll be there for the whole week, Tuesday through Monday, though I got a room off-site and a rental car to save more than 50%...hopefully parking costs won't kill my plan.
> 
> As for how Hugh Howey did it...my theory is, everything is negotiable, depending on how bad who wants what. I wouldn't give up my ebook rights on my backlist without a huge deal. I might for a new book, if it were a big enough deal. But, it would really have to be a no-kidding 6-figure deal, because a new series book 1 will probably gross me $100K over the next 2-3 years, not counting sequels. As I said, I'm really more interested in some form of print only deal, even if it had only a small advance, as I'm convinced I can do just fine with my own ebooks.


Congrats on the approach and yes Trident are good, but VERY unlikely any big trade pub will go for a print-only deal as it's cutting out a major part of their potential profits. (I'm also repped by a Big Kahuna agency and publishers won't even have that conversation). More likely they'll look for something new from you and do a print/ebook deal with that. Best of luck either way!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Some trad publishers will consider print only deals still. It's rare, but not impossible. Even if you aren't Hugh levels of sales.


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Some trad publishers will consider print only deals still. It's rare, but not impossible. Even if you aren't Hugh levels of sales.


Annie, can you name some recent print-only deals? I'm asking because I've actually been researching this, but couldn't find any recent deals.


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## martyns (May 8, 2014)

Well done and congratulations. Don't dismiss this opportunity, just because you're doing well as an indie. It could allow you to reach more markets and more readers. A good publisher and agent can really expand your reach - plus it takes some of your eggs out of Amazon's basket - and that can ONLY be a good thing!


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

Congratulations! Something to think about at least.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

RomanceAuthor said:


> Annie, can you name some recent print-only deals? I'm asking because I've actually been researching this, but couldn't find any recent deals.


I think Marie Force has a print only deal. She blogs about all her industry news so maybe check there.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

RomanceAuthor said:


> Annie, can you name some recent print-only deals? I'm asking because I've actually been researching this, but couldn't find any recent deals.


Marie Force is one, yeah. There's another romance one that was last year but I can't remember exactly who it was. Hugh Howey also did another print-only deal for Beacon23 I believe last year. And there's one more I know of that will be announced here soonish, but it isn't public yet so I can't say anything except to wink.


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## CJArcher (Jan 22, 2011)

Nothing new to add but I just wanted to congratulate you on the nomination and the agency interest. You sound like you know your ebook worth, and that's a good start. All the best with your decision.


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## Hugh Howey (Feb 11, 2012)

Hey David, congrats on the offer of representation! More importantly, congrats on the success you've had as a writer that the offer indicates.

There's already some great advice above, so not sure what I can add, but I'll offer my two cents. And I'll do it with a numbered list, so it looks super authoritative (but really it's to keep me from rambling. Much).

1) Everything is negotiable. Which means you are free to ask for whatever you like, and publishers are free to laugh as much as they like. So the print-only deal you dream of is still out there (I just got three more such deals in the last five months, and Annie knows of others, which I won't speak to for NDA reasons). In order to get my deal, I had to turn down some insane offers from publishers (in the 7-digit realm). One reason I suspect my sort of deal hadn't been done before is that no one had been stupid enough to say "no" to such quantities of money. My thought process was that if I didn't get the major print-only deal I wanted, I would go cry into the piles of dough I was making as an indie.

2) Print distribution is changing. Most print sales are going online. I've done print-only deals mostly to try to set precedent and break down walls. It's been a bad financial decision every time, and I've known this going in. I did better with my CreateSpace sales. I also gained more readers concentrating on audio and KU than I have lusting over B&N. That won't be true for every author. As a bookseller, I saw the fate of most trad-pubbed books, and it's a spine-out life for 6 months and then being returned to the publisher. That's 99% of books tossed out there.

3) Andy Weir represents the 1%. If you can get 20th Century Fox to make a major motion picture, the sky is the limit. He sold a ton of books through traditional means. But here's the rub: THE MARTIAN was selling worse than WOOL prior to the film's release, and that was with a much better publisher (Random House) than mine (Simon & Schuster, who flubbed the release of WOOL with their dispute with B&N). So perhaps the lesson from THE MARTIAN is to make a movie. We have yet to see what would happen if a movie got made while an author still retained ebook rights. It will happen.

4) Most trad-pub experiences are not as hunky dory as Andy's. And that's the best understatement I've made in 2016 (granted, the year is young). I've had more than a few well-known indies call me to ask for advice when their trad-pub deals go sour. You can't believe how sour. The only reason you don't hear about these horror stories is because of decorum and fear of reprisal. I'm talking sales-destroying business decisions. Publishers are dumber than you can possibly believe. The people at publishing houses are generally good people who wish all their books would sell in the millions, but as a hive, they are about as smart as bees in beer. So here is what I would do if I were you:*

A) I would respond to this letter (you probably already have) with a thank-you and a query of your own. You should lay out your sales history, your writing plans going forward, your social media presence (if it's worth touting), and your goals as a writer (deals you would love to get made [foreign, media, print-only, term-limited]).

B) I would consider sending a similar letter to a handful of other agents, using your nomination and Gottlieb's interest to get through the door. Something aspiring writers don't seem to get is their query letter from an unknown author with no publishing history is going up against the sort of query letter you can now write, which is millions of times more powerful. Again, if I were you,* I would include this list of negotiating points:

I) Print-only deals for the US and/or UK
II) Foreign rights deals of any sort
III) Limited term deals (I've done 5-year deals and 7-year deals. I think this is just as powerful and important as print-only)
IV) Ebook price caps (I'd negotiate a $6.99 price cap on the ebook edition before signing any contract, ever)
V) No non-compete, and no most-favored-nation clauses, ever
VI) Higher royalty rate on high-discount print sales
VII) No basket accounting (but really, I wouldn't do a multi-book deal anyway)

For any of the above that a publisher didn't want to offer, they'd have to pay me BIG bucks. Multiple 7 figures. And even then, I'd have to sleep on it and might turn it down.

I'd also send an email to Amazon's publishing departments (47 North in your case) to feel them out. They can do more for your sales than a trad publisher. But your royalty rate will go down. This is often worth it with Amazon, as they can really turn on the sales with their store promotions.

Okay, having said all that, you are no doubt looking to increase your audience and your earnings, and probably in that order (if you are like me*). So what I would suggest doing is sending off letters to agents in your spare time, but not spending too much energy there, and writing the next work. And the one after that. The dream deal you want is possible. Get so big and successful that you can demand it. Don't sell your stock on the way up. And don't be wooed by a form letter (as Annie intimates this might be) or go with the first agent who will have you. YOU are hiring them, not the other way around. YOU are interviewing them, not the other way around. THEY work for you. YOU are the one with actual talent. Don't forget this last part. 

Best of luck, and again, congratulations on all your success!

* Keep in mind that I am not you, as evidenced by the fact that you and I occupy separate bodies, which is great news for you, as I've got a vasectomy appointment today, so it'll be my nethers getting poked and prodded, not yours.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Or, you know, what Hugh said.


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## Andrew Dorn (Dec 30, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Or, you know, what Hugh said.


This.
_ "As smart as bees in beer_" Ha! Love this!


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Just seconding what's already been said...

Trident is one of the big names (which doesn't mean they are the best choice for you).  You may want to reach out to a few authors like Hugh and Annie and Jen Foehner Wells who have agents but still are mostly indie and in your field to see what their agents have done for them and if those agents would be a better fit.  (I believe Jen's agent has gotten her some nice foreign rights sales.)

Congrats on the Hugo nom.

And I, too, will be at Worldcon (Thurs-Sun) and would definitely be interested if someone arranges a meet-up.


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## Cal Lumney (Dec 8, 2015)

Hugh Howey said:


> I've got a vasectomy appointment today, so it'll be my nethers getting poked and prodded, not yours.


There seems to be no appropriate way to express positive wishes regarding junk surgery, so I'll just say I hope it is uneventful and you recover well.


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## JA Konrath (Apr 2, 2009)

Having a good agent is a no brainer. They're like hunting dogs. Good to have, and can make life easier and better.

But your new agent is going to want to sell your rights. All of your rights.

You can decide which rights are for sale, and which aren't. The more that aren't for sale, the less the agent will be able to do for you.

Ultimately, it comes down to a simple equation: giving up control in exchange for money and hope.

If the money is big enough, do it. If the hope is for something you can't get on your own: a movie deal, a TV series, sub rights to Yugoslavia, weigh the reality against the possibility.

Once other people control your IP, it is pretty much out of your hands. Good things can, and do, happen. So do bad things. Or frustrating, heartbreaking things. Or career-killing things.

Here are my rules.

1. I only sign away rights I don't have plans on doing anything with.

2. I try to get the most money I can, for the shortest term I can.

3. Once I sign, I forget about it. It's not under my control anymore, so worrying is pointless. If they want my help with something, they can pay me more.

4. If I don't feel comfortable with a deal, I walk away before signing.

I toiled in the legacy publishing world for years, and I suffered greatly having my rights controlled by others. A good agent is an ally who helps you grow your business. A bad agent is a nightmare. You want your agent to help you expand the control you have over your IP, or to earn you so much money you're okay with giving up control.

There may be rare exceptions, where you manage to get a ton of money and a lot of control. But assume you won't be an exception.

And keep your hope at a minimum. This business hurts those who dream too big. If you're already doing well, anything your agent can sell is just gravy. 

Much success to you.

Joe


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## Thetis (Dec 23, 2015)

Yeah... Trident is huge. Congrats on at least getting the email - that's pretty awesome!


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## KaiW (Mar 11, 2014)

Jack Kilborn said:


> Having a good agent is a no brainer. They're like hunting dogs. Good to have, and can make life easier and better.
> 
> But your new agent is going to want to sell your rights. All of your rights.
> 
> ...


This pretty much sums up how I handle things. I love so many aspects of trad publishing, and without it I wouldn't have two Hollywood options/big breakouts in foreign territories under my belt etc, but there is so much I can't control. Being hybrid and working on my indie catalogue allows me an outlet and helps me forget all the frustrating trad stuff like bad covers/crazy pricing/slow publishing timelines etc. Luckily my agent is good with my doing both.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Congrats, David! Well deserved & so freakin' happy for you! 
And to think, I can say I knew you waaay back when lol


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks for all the great advice so far, especially from Joe Konrath (with the pen name Jack Kilborn above, for those who don't know) who's been around the  block a few times. I'm house-shopping in Tucson today so I'll read up on all this in detail tonight and chat some more.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Congrats! It's always a great feeling to be contacted by an agent. It shows they think you are a good prospect.

I, too, received a contact from Trident inquiring whether I would like representation. I was pumped and happily signed a contract.

Fame, fortune, Big Pub contract, right?

Wrong.

The results? ZIP. No foreign rights. No audio rights. No print deals. We never even went to submission because in the indie romance world, only a NYT Bestseller designation is good enough to attract a publisher for a deal, and from what my other indie romance authors have found, the deals are pretty bleak compared to our usual revenues as indies.

For ex, a NYT and USAT bestselling author was approached by Trident, signed, and had her book go on submission. She was offered $70K for a 2 book deal. Usual terms. That's $35K per book. She turned down the deal and earned $35k in the_ first two weeks_ of her release for that book alone. It was a #2 NYT bestseller that stuck on the list for weeks. She made SCADS of cash because she remained indie instead of trying for a trad pub deal just because of the high revenue share for an eBook that is self published.

I am a six-figure indie in romance and if this year's income holds out, will be close to $1M in career revenue as an indie in the past 4 years. I am still not big enough or successful enough to get a trad pub deal or for my agent to expend the effort for foreign rights or audio. As soon as my term with this particular agent expires, I will not be renewing. I am not Hugh Howey big enough to get a really worthwhile contract and so I am better off being indie rather than go trad publishing. Besides, I hate losing control. 

Your mileage may vary as a science fiction author. Perhaps there is more traction in the trad publishing world for SF books.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks for all the great advice so far, especially from Joe Konrath (with the pen name Jack Kilborn above, for those who don't know) who's been around the block a few times. I'm house-shopping in Tucson today so I'll read up on all this in detail tonight and chat some more.


Sorry, Hugh, I didn't mean to snub you, just missed your post on my first skim. Between you and Joe, though, you have given me what is obviously great advice and is refining my realistic expectations.

I like the idea of using this inquiry as leverage to find other, more appropriate representation. The rest, I will mull over. Unfortunately I am not at home and in my routine, and house-shopping all day takes it out of you (well, when you've passed the half-century mark, like me it does). So, I'm brain dead.

Thanks again, and I'll be mulling.

Mull.

Mull.


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## Mari Oliver (Feb 12, 2016)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks. As we poker players say, I've tried to put myself into a position to get lucky, and it seems I have. Or, as another quote goes, it takes years to become an overnight success. I submitted a story to a Jerry Pournelle anthology (There Will Be War X), got accepted, then suddenly got nominated for a Hugo in a relatively easier category (novelette - novels, novellas and short stories seem much more competitive), and boom, somebody notices me after 4 years and 25 books as an indie...
> 
> I'll be going to WorldCon in KC, but I don't think I have a snowball's chance of winning...not with a Stephen King novelette in there. But the nom is nice, and the networking will be nice.


Sir, many congratulations to you! What an exciting time in your career. I hope it all goes brilliant for you!


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Cassie Leigh said:


> And I, too, will be at Worldcon (Thurs-Sun) and would definitely be interested if someone arranges a meet-up.


Does breakfast work for you?


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Does breakfast work for you?


Breakfast is always good. Say where and when.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Wow. Congrats on the Hugp nom and also congrats on a possible print deal. Good luck! Sounds like you'll have a lot to think about in the coming days.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> Breakfast is always good. Say where and when.


Probably Friday morning, since Cassie is arriving on Thursday. Will you be on the program? If so, we may have to wait on exactly when until you get your schedule

And probably inside the convention center somewhere or in one of the local hotels, since I will be staying on site. I'll make some inquiries and get back to this thread with suggestions on where. We have a few months.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

They usually try to put Hugo nominated authors on programming if they are available and want to do it, by the way.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Nobody's contacted me about being on the program...wonder if I should email them.


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## Nikki Vaughn (May 21, 2014)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks. As we poker players say, I've tried to put myself into a position to get lucky, and it seems I have. Or, as another quote goes, it takes years to become an overnight success. I submitted a story to a Jerry Pournelle anthology (There Will Be War X), got accepted, then suddenly got nominated for a Hugo in a relatively easier category (novelette - novels, novellas and short stories seem much more competitive), and boom, somebody notices me after 4 years and 25 books as an indie...
> 
> I'll be going to WorldCon in KC, but I don't think I have a snowball's chance of winning...not with a Stephen King novelette in there. But the nom is nice, and the networking will be nice.


I just thought I'd mention it just in case you haven't been paying attention to the controversy that's been plaguing the Hugo Awards over the last few years. There's been a lot of shenanigans with the Hugo ballots going on by dissatisfied groups over what's basically a culture war (google sad puppies, rabid puppies, Vox Day and John Scalzi). You may want to take a look at who nominated you, and why they did so. It looks like you were nominated by Vox Day and the Rabid Puppies:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/03/rabid-puppies-2016-list.html

So you may want to do some research as to why, and what kind of political statement they are making with their nominations. And again, I'm mentioning this on the off chance that you haven't been paying attention to the all of the controversy. If you weren't aware, it would be a shame for you to wander into WorldCon unaware of all of the controversy surrounding nominations like yours to a possibly frosty reception by people who are angry with Vox. I would hate to an indie author to get a nomination, and then get blindsided by discovering that they've been caught up in some Hugo Nomination infighting once they get there.


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## RomanceAuthor (Aug 18, 2014)

Sela said:


> I am still not big enough or successful enough to get a trad pub deal or for my agent to expend the effort for foreign rights or audio.


You just have a lazy agent. You are absolutely big enough to sell AUDIO rights at the very least. Your agent is just not making any effort. Sorry you had this experience.


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## Ethan Jones (Jan 20, 2012)

Congrats.
The email sounds general and a bit pompous. I hope it amounts to a great deal for you.
Have a blessed weekend,
ethan


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> Nobody's contacted me about being on the program...wonder if I should email them.


Here is the form Priscilla wants filled out for folks who want to be on Program. She really should have contacted you and all the other Hugo finalists by now, but what do you want from a convention run entirely by volunteers? 

http://midamericon2.org/home/whats-happening/programming/volunteer-form/


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Cherise Kelley said:


> Probably Friday morning, since Cassie is arriving on Thursday...And probably inside the convention center somewhere or in one of the local hotels, since I will be staying on site. I'll make some inquiries and get back to this thread with suggestions on where. We have a few months.


I'll plan on Friday morning. I, too, am at one of the local hotels. Have a few groups of friends that'll be there and one local friend who I'm going to see when I'm there, but nothing is planned yet. Might be worth starting a new thread when we get closer to the date so anyone who's interested and attending can join up.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Cassie Leigh said:


> I'll plan on Friday morning. I, too, am at one of the local hotels. Have a few groups of friends that'll be there and one local friend who I'm going to see when I'm there, but nothing is planned yet. Might be worth starting a new thread when we get closer to the date so anyone who's interested and attending can join up.


Yeah, agreed on the new thread. I'll start one once we decide on a place and everyone knows their schedules so we can nail down the time.

There will be a huge food area in the middle of the exhibit hall inside the convention center. We could meet there and each get our food at the counter and sit for as long as we want without worrying about missing anything, as we'll be right there. I favor this approach but would like to hear your take on it.

I would schedule our KBoards meet-up on the convention program -- except that the convention doesn't have a forkage waiver, meaning no outside food is allowed at any programmed event. It's expensive to get the convention center to cater an event, so I think our best bet is to meet near one of the convention center's food counters.


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## FFJ (Feb 8, 2016)

A Hugo?

Trident Media?

Hugh Howey, Annie, J. A. Konrath and many others chiming in with good info?

Congrats to you Dick and thanks for creating this thread. It's inspiring for us noobs to read this.

Best of luck with whatever you choose and continued success.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

David VanDyke said:


> Got this in my author email today (I added the bolded italics). Looks legit. The email seems to check out. Mark Gottlieb seems to check out. Trident Media Group (New York, not DC or LA) seems to check out. Their website checks out. Okay. I believe the basics, I think.


Just jumping in to offer my congratulations! Exciting times!


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

FFJ said:


> A Hugo?
> 
> Trident Media?
> 
> ...


+ 1

Major Congrats!!!!!!!


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## KGGiarratano (Aug 14, 2013)

He's my friend's agent and he's done right by her. Congrats on all your successes!


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Nikki, I'm well aware of the Hugo controversy. I have no interest in weighing in here or anywhere else public. If you want my thoughts, talk to me in person at the con, with your recorders off.

Thanks Cherise for the link. I submitted my info.

FFJ, hope you calling me "Dick" was a mistake or a (really, tired old) joke? Because that's not my name.

A general thanks to everyone. I'm brain-dead from house shopping in Tuscon all day for four days straight, but I did finally find something nice and put in an offer, so I should recover function in a day or two and get on this stuff.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

So I eventually contacted Gottlieb and he asked for numbers on my sales. Total sales of each book over their lives, not, say, per-month sales. 

When I provided them, after considerable time expended adding up spreadsheets, he said I hadn't sold enough copies of any one book to be worth representing me. So, chalk it up to experience and the strange thinking of agents. And no, I can't give you an exact number, as the details are confidential. However, I can say that royalties on the number would represent a comfortable living in most first-world countries.

So, it seems to be that it's a catch-22; representation is only offered at the point where one does not really need representation anymore (except for a few things like TV and film rights, I suppose). Or at least only when one is seen as a cash cow to be skimmed.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. I have heard tale of these mythical unicorns, the "good agent." If anyone knows one, feel free to put them in contact with me.


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## mach 5 (Dec 5, 2015)

David VanDyke said:


> So, it seems to be that it's a catch-22; representation is only offered at the point where one does not really need representation anymore (except for a few things like TV and film rights, I suppose). Or at least only when one is seen as a cash cow to be skimmed.


That is pretty much my view. I make an upper middle class income on my writing, all under one name, and have never had an agent bite. And I had one novel make me 100k on its own (that was when I last ran the numbers about 18 months ago - it still makes money, just not like it used to). It's nice to get a nibble, but I'm glad you've developed a good perspective on agents.


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## new_writer (Feb 2, 2016)

David VanDyke said:


> So I eventually contacted Gottlieb and he asked for numbers on my sales. Total sales of each book over their lives, not, say, per-month sales.
> 
> When I provided them, after considerable time expended adding up spreadsheets, he said I hadn't sold enough copies of any one book to be worth representing me. So, chalk it up to experience and the strange thinking of agents. And no, I can't give you an exact number, as the details are confidential. However, I can say that royalties on the number would represent a comfortable living in most first-world countries.
> 
> ...


Agents. Pfft. Same story, different indie author. If I'd read your thread beforehand, I would have told you this was eventually what they would ask you for because -- surprise, surprise -- they all do.

The two most recent agents who offered to rep me asked for the same thing. One was pretty big, too. I told them I'm not interested in "selling" myself to them and I stopped answering their emails. A few others might have asked for the same thing if I had bothered to reply to them, but they were too small fish and I never bothered.

Imagine soliciting someone, then asking them to prove themselves to you. Hey, buddy, YOU came to ME. LMAO.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

David VanDyke said:


> So I eventually contacted Gottlieb and he asked for numbers on my sales. Total sales of each book over their lives, not, say, per-month sales.
> 
> When I provided them, after considerable time expended adding up spreadsheets, he said I hadn't sold enough copies of any one book to be worth representing me. So, chalk it up to experience and the strange thinking of agents. And no, I can't give you an exact number, as the details are confidential. However, I can say that royalties on the number would represent a comfortable living in most first-world countries.
> 
> ...


Doesn't surprise me. He has pretty much form letter spammed every bestselling indie author I know (and every author who hits a list or is nominated for a major award).

If you want an agent, the way I found worked best was to ask around, look at people who have done deals like what you want, and just email the agents you like with a straight forward pitch that lays out your sales to date, what you want out of the relationship, etc.


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## JamesOsiris (Mar 23, 2014)

I got a letter from him, too. He also only asked about sales figures, and was extremely rude in the bargain.

He said that he hoped I was 'grateful for his honesty'. I said that I assumed I was being approached based on the quality of my (Dragon Award-nominated) work, and that I appreciated that he was, at least, up front about his single priority.

What the heck? Was he mining for sales data?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> Was he mining for sales data?


Yes. From what I'm reading around the net, with so many people going indie from the beginning or switching over, agents are hurting for clients. Or they're seeing how much some are making on their own. So, they start sending out the bait. Got to get that perpetual 15% from somewhere, and where better than foolish or uninformed writers? With David, he found an informed and strong person who wouldn't just jump at the offer. But, there are plenty of writers who would.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

I actually didn't even get an offer, which surprised me. Gottlieb turned me down, despite my track record of selling well over 100K books a year for the last two years (paid sales, free downloads were at least twice that). It seemed like he was judging me based on my best book, not my overall sales, which shows how stuck in the past he and probably other agents are. That's old-model thinking.

JamesOsiris, this guy inherited his father's (same name) agency and has a large staff of minions to do his bidding. He's looking for the next multimillion-dollar property, and seems not interested in building a steady business, because that's how publishing has worked for the past 40+ years. He probably has a standing order for one minion to cruise the various book awards and send out inquiries to winners and nominees, sifting for potential blockbusters like Jemison. But as an example, assuming she didn't already have representation locked in, and with her Hugo and high media profile, she'd make far more by self-publishing her next book, especially if it were a sequel or same-universe work to _The Fifth Season._ So again, the question arises, why get representation if it loses you money?

The main reason I can see to get an agent is to sell rights in arenas, like movies, where they will hardly touch you without an agent (unless you're already white-hot, like Andy Weir was), or similarly, to search out opportunities you the writer don't know to look for or how to navigate (foreign language rights, for example).

By the way, I got another, identical-to-the-first form-email recently from Gottlieb, despite already having talked to him directly, which supports my above contention that he has a semi-automated system in place to look for talent. I ignored it, since I'd been around that track already.


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## bnapier (Apr 26, 2010)

Congrats on the success and glad to hear that this is getting some attention.

It brings a potentially sad question to light...

For someone like myself who is not selling NEARLY as well as you, is it even worth looking for agents? That is, if you've self published books and are not selling well, do agents see that as a warning sign? Or do they base their decision solely on your pitch and the material you have presented them with?

Anyone know the details to the answer to this?


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

There's a lot of weird conspiracy theories in this thread and maybe some fantasy building as well.

Are agents really "hurting"? I'd imagine most of these huge agents could reach out and pluck just about any self-published author they wish. If they're asking for numbers, then they want to see if there's something there for them. Even if you're making a good living, that doesn't mean much of anything. Do you have the numbers to make it worthwhile for a trade-publisher to sell your book at a higher pricepoint when you remove the bargain shoppers from the equation? Do you sell enough to make a studio think it's worthwhile to get involved? No? Then what are these huge agents going to do with you?

If it were me, I'd believe more of what the agent is telling me rather than the thinking they don't know what they're talking about.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

bnapier, if I were you I'd keep working the self-pub side of the street while submitting queries through the old process, if you're interested in that. However, if your goal is to be traditionally published, one route is to go direct to small and medium publishers that may take a look at your work without an agent.

Briteka, you're right, agents could get many indie authors, but the bigger the author is, the more likely they are to carefully consider their own interests rather than simply jump at the chance. I know two seven-figure indies that have turned down agents seeking to represent them, because as the indie gets bigger, the balance of power and interest shifts.

And your points are well taken about how the industry thinks, but IMO the whole industry is thinking wrongly. See Hugh Howey's post on this topic that explains things much more eloquently and informatively than I can.

http://www.hughhowey.com/a-peek-behind-the-curtain/


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## hlynn117 (Apr 25, 2016)

Jack Kilborn said:


> But your new agent is going to want to sell your rights. All of your rights.
> 
> You can decide which rights are for sale, and which aren't. The more that aren't for sale, the less the agent will be able to do for you.


There's so much good advice here. My day job is in STEM. Value your intellectual IP. It's the leverage you've got. I probably don't need to tell you this, but it amazes me how authors undervalue their IP.


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## bnapier (Apr 26, 2010)

David VanDyke said:


> bnapier, if I were you I'd keep working the self-pub side of the street while submitting queries through the old process, if you're interested in that. However, if your goal is to be traditionally published, one route is to go direct to small and medium publishers that may take a look at your work without an agent.


That's exactly what I've been doing for 6 years. 3 novels released through small-to-mid sized publishers with 4 self-published. And all the while, submitting to agencies along the way.


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## JalexM (May 14, 2015)

Briteka said:


> If it were me, I'd believe more of what the agent is telling me rather than the thinking they don't know what they're talking about.


This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. As someone who is rife in an industry with agents, managers, and lawyers(And others). The agents are almost as hated as the lawyers.
They only say what's in their best interest and not their clients. Even if it's a white lie.


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## C. Rysalis (Feb 26, 2015)

Agents who employ the strategy discussed above are like salesmen: they know exactly what they're talking about. It's just not in their interest to admit or reveal the whole truth. They'll tell you the choice bits that will make them a sale.


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## A past poster (Oct 23, 2013)

David VanDyke said:


> The main reason I can see to get an agent is to sell rights in arenas, like movies, where they will hardly touch you without an agent (unless you're already white-hot, like Andy Weir was), or similarly, to search out opportunities you the writer don't know to look for or how to navigate (foreign language rights, for example).


I agree. They'll get you where it's hard to go on your own for movie and television rights, and they can negotiate foreign language rights, which can be really lucrative.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

David VanDyke said:


> bnapier, if I were you I'd keep working the self-pub side of the street while submitting queries through the old process, if you're interested in that. However, if your goal is to be traditionally published, one route is to go direct to small and medium publishers that may take a look at your work without an agent.
> 
> Briteka, you're right, agents could get many indie authors, but the bigger the author is, the more likely they are to carefully consider their own interests rather than simply jump at the chance. I know two seven-figure indies that have turned down agents seeking to represent them, because as the indie gets bigger, the balance of power and interest shifts.
> 
> ...


I don't put much stock in what Hugh Howey says about the publishing industry. Still, I'm sure if you wanted an agent, you'd be able to fine one with your resume. We're not talking about just any agent here, though, and I think that's the difference. Gottlieb is in a position to be super picky, so he's looking for a single IP that can make a splash through a huge trade-publishing deal or a huge studio deal. That's why he's asking about sales of single books.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

bnapier said:


> For someone like myself who is not selling NEARLY as well as you, is it even worth looking for agents? That is, if you've self published books and are not selling well, do agents see that as a warning sign? Or do they base their decision solely on your pitch and the material you have presented them with?
> 
> Anyone know the details to the answer to this?


An agent is never going to make their decision _solely_ based on the current book. They have to take your publishing history into account, because the publishers they'll be pitching your book to certainly will. BUT the current book that you're pitching--assuming it's unpublished and unconnected to your previous published books--matters much, much more than your track record, especially an indie track record where lack of sales could be due to a lack of marketing savvy that to some extent a publishing house would expect to compensate for, rather than any problem with how the average reader reacts to your stories.

As an example, I went looking for my second agent with one published book out that had been a lower-end trad pub deal with a large house, and hadn't managed to earn out its relatively small advance in the nearly a year it'd been out. But the book I was querying with happened to have a post-apocalyptic/dystopian vibe at a time when that genre was just taking off in YA, and it happened to be doing things a little differently than other books already sold. Within three weeks, I had six agent offers.

If you have a book they can see lots of possibility in, they don't care what your past books have or haven't done.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

As I said before... Gottlieb is basically spamming that query to anyone who shows up on an award nomination list or a bestseller list. He doesn't even check to see if you have representation already. It's spam.

A good agent is someone who actually knows what you are doing, knows where your vision for your career is coming from, and someone who is willing to work for you on that. You know... actually familiar with your work instead of just spamming for clients? Yeah.  If you want a good agent, ask around to see who is recommended by people who are actually getting the kind of deals you want. Then email those agents. If you have sales and award noms etc to your name, agents will email or call you back, believe me. It's not rocket surgery.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Briteka said:


> I don't put much stock in what Hugh Howey says about the publishing industry.


I just spit out my rum.

I mean, the man has sold millions of books, both indie and published. It might be worth listening to what he has to say once in a while.


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## tommy gun (May 3, 2015)

Congratulations on the letter!  And the Nom!

I as a newbie will now go and hide back under my small rock.
And continue writing.


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## Briteka (Mar 5, 2012)

ebbrown said:


> I just spit out my rum.
> 
> I mean, the man has sold millions of books, both indie and published. It might be worth listening to what he has to say once in a while.


I'd be more careful of the people you believe.


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## jambalian (May 11, 2012)

I was contacted by him today, too.  He didn't even have the courtesy to look up my email address, he just posted a reply to one of my blog posts.  I thought I'd play his game, though, so I went to the website, found his email address and asked him to send me a copy of the contract


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

The telling thing for me in that e-mail is that he doesn't at all mention the author or the author's work (which does indicate it's spam). And then to actually reject the author once the author makes contact because his sales figures aren't high enough? Yeah, no.

It seems like authors need to decide if they want to get an agent, even if they go indie, so that if/when they become successful enough to attract an agent's attention, they already know if they want to bother talking to them. If not, either ignore them (if it's clearly impersonal spam like in this instance) or wait three months and send a polite form rejection. ;-)


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## jackconnerbooks (Nov 18, 2014)

Way to go, David!


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## ASDeMatteis (Jan 29, 2017)

Congrats man I say go for it!


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

David VanDyke said:


> Thanks. As we poker players say, I've tried to put myself into a position to get lucky, and it seems I have. Or, as another quote goes, it takes years to become an overnight success. I submitted a story to a Jerry Pournelle anthology (There Will Be War X), got accepted, then suddenly got nominated for a Hugo in a relatively easier category (novelette - novels, novellas and short stories seem much more competitive), and boom, somebody notices me after 4 years and 25 books as an indie...
> 
> I'll be going to WorldCon in KC, but I don't think I have a snowball's chance of winning...not with a Stephen King novelette in there. But the nom is nice, and the networking will be nice.


Great on the 'overnight success!' Congrats! And on the contact from Trident! That's awesome for a 4 year run


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

jackconnerbooks said:


> Way to go, David!


Thanks, but this is several months old, and is OBE (overtaken by events) for me. Read the whole thread and you'll see.

As I said above, he mainly wanted to know my highest book's sales rather than looking at me as an overall indie "product." This is typical dinosaur thinking. *shrug*. I'm doing fine without an agent. I was willing to explore whether I could do even better with one, but, oh well.


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