# Apple to World: Put Up or Shut Up



## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

Between Apple's new scheme to take over the world one Kindle purchase at a time, and all the media hype over the iPhone and iPad, all part of Apple reality distortion field, I have reached my limit. I will definitely never buy another Apple product again. When posters on a web site with an article on the iPhone use the word magic in relationship to Apple product development, you have to wonder what Apple is coating their products with to brainwash people into thinking that only Apple can innovate or do something truly amazing. If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bull$#!%, that's Apple for you.
Gene

http://www.9to5mac.com/52179/apple-to-world-put-up-or-shut-up


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

Apple's walled garden has served it well.  It is unlikely that it will change soon.

I'm not offended by their new app policy.  Commercial interests are continually experimenting with ways to create an income stream out of digital media.  It is up to the consumer as to whether to accept them.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

I have an iPod Nano I like a lot.

But I'm definitely not buying an iPad.  The walled garden and lack of user control of the device etc. is fine for an mp3 player that I do nothing but listen to music on.  But not for a Tablet where I don't want apps hampered by policies like this, where I want to be able to simply drag and drop and organize folders like I can on a pc and not have to use iTunes or apps like Dropbox and still have no real control over any broad file organization and have to hassle to get files into multiple apps etc.

If I ever get a smartphone I'll likely go Android just to not support Apple--even though I care less about those type of things on a phone as my uses are simpler.  But that's also why I may not get a smartphone--I don't really need one since I'm near a PC most of the time anyway.

But as Elk said, it's Apple's right to run their business how they see fit.  As consumers it's up to us to vote with our wallets if we don't like a company's business practices.

I just hope someone puts out a tablet as good or better soon.  All the competition is lacking.  And I don't think Android will be the one to do it as having so many versions of the OS out at one time fragments the App store.  It will take someone else making a unified tablet/phone OS that only has one version supported across all hardware at a time to have any chance of competing with Apple and their App store.


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## RobertK (Aug 2, 2010)

There are advantages in the walled garden—it's not this universal mess. On liability for Android is the openness—i.e. that's why you don't see a Netflix app.

For the inclined user, you can always jailbreak an iPhone or iPad to add your own customization or functionality—much like we do with our Kindles and screensavers (though on a smaller scale). Regarding smartphones, often Android users are in a similar boat. While the Android OS is open, it has to go through somewhere—and as far as I know, all of the phone carriers are putting their own version of it and users are in the same boat having to 'root' it to use it fully.

And there is the fragmentation you mentioned, too,


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

Yep, I don't have a lot of hope for Android for that reason.

It's probably going to take Windows putting out a good tablet/phone OS (i.e. the Win 7 Phones etc.) and doing a good job to really compete.  That or google wising up and stopping the fragmentation and putting out one OS version at a time and requiring all who put it on their hardware to use that verison and that UI etc.  But that probably won't happen.

I'm more of a mind to just wait 5 years or so until tech advances to where we can get full tablet PCs that have the form factor and battery life of the current iPad (and not be big, bulky, hot running and short battery lifed like past tablet and slate PCs).  I need  a tablet I can work on, not just read and play with apps.  But if its not better than my laptop in size, weight, battery life etc. then it's pointless.


And I do agree their are advantages to Apples approach--they're simple to use gadgets for people who don't want to do much customization and just use them as designed.  That's my problem with the iPad.  I don't need a multimedia tablet.  I need a tablet PC that's thin and light and gets 10 hours battery life etc.  And it's not designed to be a workstation.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

RobertK said:


> There are advantages in the walled garden


Absolutely.

Apple's total control over hardware and software provides great uniformity and tidiness. Their stores are typically great for obtaining service and support.

It's akin to comparing political systems . . .


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## AnelaBelladonna (Apr 8, 2009)

I was never an Apple fan until I got my first iPhone and now I don't know how I ever lived without it.  I plan on buying the iPad 2 as soon as it comes out.  

Whether you like them and their practices or not, what they are doing is hugely successful.


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## MartyS (Feb 3, 2011)

Their control over the software is what keeps me from getting an iPad.

I have several iPods and since I get some TV shows through iTunes I got an Apple TV, what Apple really does well is the user interface, and for dedicated devices like that how easy it is to use is kind of important.  The Netflix interface on the Apple TV is nicer than the Netflix website.

It seems like this latest bit of control has nothing to do with keeping the user interface clean and working but all about forcing people who buy their device to spend all their money in the apple store.  This is a well proven way to kill off a portion of any brand loyalty that has built up, people don't like to have their choices taken away.

If they pulled the same stuff with their computers it would cause an uproar (imagine not being able to use a browser with flash on a Mac), but for some reason doing it on the iPad hasn't hurt them (yet).


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

I just purchased an iPod Classic and really like it a lot, but I think model's days are numbered, so when I'm ready for another player in another 4 to 5 years, I don't know where I will go.  The touch is too expensive for what you get for memory and I don't need 90% of what it has for just music.  I would be happy buying click wheel iPods until the end of time, but they just aren't going to be around, which is too bad.  To me, this whole app is just absurd.  I know I said I wouldn't buy another Apple product, but the iPods are the item that really challenges that for me.  Maybe if Apple comes out with a high capacity touch, then I will go that route.  I would still be looking at it for music and some video, but that's about it.  I already have iTunes for my current iPod, so that wouldn't change anything for me accept for the high cost of the iPod because it is a touch model.  But to say that what Apple does is a kin to magic give me a break.  The iPad is a bloated iPod touch and nothing more.  And Apple is getting a lot more money for it and it doesn't have the greatest display in the world after all that extra expense.

Gene


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

I _like_ my bloated iPod Touch.

I like my Apple products.

As far as I am concerned, they can do business as they see fit. Apple is not forcing anyone to buy their products. Lots of other computers, cell phones and tablets out there.


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## Elk (Oct 4, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> As far as I am concerned, they can do business as they see fit. Apple is not forcing anyone to buy their products.


Exactly.

Apple is superb at servicing its client population. Most Apple users are happily rabid, demanding ever more increasing amounts of Kool-Aid. 

If you don't like their system and products there are many other options. No reason to bash Apple, nor any reason to bash PCs or Androids.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

MartyS said:


> Their control over the software is what keeps me from getting an iPad.
> 
> I have several iPods and since I get some TV shows through iTunes I got an Apple TV, what Apple really does well is the user interface, and for dedicated devices like that how easy it is to use is kind of important. The Netflix interface on the Apple TV is nicer than the Netflix website.
> 
> ...


That's it in a nut shell. The simple UIs etc. are fine for dedicated devices like an iPod or Apple TV where they just need to be easy to use. It gets more iffy on a Smartphone, but is still doable.

For a tablet, it just doesn't work for me. I need my tablet to be more like a PC and let me simply drag and drop files and manage files manually. And to be able to easily get PDFs and other documents into every app that can read them (i.e. a file system and programs having open and save as menus like a pc/mac) etc.

So I think they made a mistake by just using the iPhone OS for the iPad vs making a more robust Tablet OS for it. But oh well. As others said, that's their choice and I can wait for something that suits my needs to come out from another company. They can make whatever business decisions they like, and I can spend my money how I like. So no skin off my nose.

My girlfriend loves her iPad, but she has simpler uses for it that I do, and more patience for working with a clunky OS for moving files back and forth from her iPad and PC than I do.


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## geko29 (Dec 23, 2008)

RobertK said:


> There are advantages in the walled garden-it's not this universal mess. On liability for Android is the openness-i.e. that's why you don't see a Netflix app.


Actually, that's not why. Up until last week, there was no way to support Netflix's DRM requirements on Android, period. No DRM, no content. Now Qualcomm (I think it was them) has a new chipset that meets the requirements, so any future devices that use it (should be just about all of them) will be able to use Netflix. The app is ready, and will be released along with the first round of compatible hardware.


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## originalgrissel (Mar 5, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> I _like_ my bloated iPod Touch.
> 
> I like my Apple products.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, they can do business as they see fit. Apple is not forcing anyone to buy their products. Lots of other computers, cell phones and tablets out there.


Sadly, though, because of the deals Apple has with many universities many students (or their parents) are being forced to buy their products whether they want to or not. I am not a fan of Apple products and I don't care for the way they try to manipulate markets (ie e-book prices) just to put more money in their pockets & shaft consumers, but my son has set his sights on going to a film school, that requires all students enrolled in the film program to purchase a mac book pro & accompanying software. And while I understand that they do this to make sure that every student is working with the same level of technology & has access to the same software for teaching purposes it just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

If the university is forcing students to buy equipment they do not wish to purchase, perhaps it is time to seek out a different university.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

It looks like the 30% charge doesn't apply to individual books, such as those purchased through Amazon... only to content subscriptions, i.e. magazine issues, crossword puzzles by subscription, etc.

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/02/opinion-reports.php

Mike


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

jmiked said:


> It looks like the 30% charge doesn't apply to individual books, such as those purchased through Amazon... only to content subscriptions, i.e. magazine issues, crossword puzzles by subscription, etc.
> 
> http://dvice.com/archives/2011/02/opinion-reports.php
> 
> Mike


These reporters did NOT read the Apple agreement, quoted below

"Apps can _read _or _play _approved content (magazines, newspapers, *books*, audio, *music*, *video*) that is sold outside of the app, for which Apple will not receive any portion of the revenues, provided that the same content is also offered in the app using IAP at the same price or less than it is offered outside the app. This applies to both purchased content and subscriptions."

What this means is that the Kindle app can't even be offered as a READER without offering the sale of the same content AND with the 30% Apple tax. Seems to me that this also prohibits them from offering better pricing for anyone. While it is certainly Apple's right to charge, I, for one don't appreciate that it will virtually kill the Kindle and Netflix apps unless they come to a private agreement. I don't know the legality of that, but if I were a developer--say of Angry Birds?--I'd want to sue if another company got a better deal.

If I were a publisher, I would terminate the agency deals with Amazon which would let them price ebooks anyway they wanted. If they did that and Amazon pulled out of the Apple store, Apple would have some serious competition. As well as renewed incentive to purchase the current (and next) Kindle.


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## Mike D. aka jmiked (Oct 28, 2008)

Jesslyn said:


> These reporters did NOT read the Apple agreement, quoted below


Could you list a URL for that, please?

Thanks.

Mike


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## Jesslyn (Oct 29, 2008)

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9209580/Apple_s_new_App_Store_rules_affect_Amazon_s_Kindle?taxonomyId=12

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/02/15/apple_gets_tough_on_cheating_developers_in_app_store_guidelines.html

The second is the better resource. The official guidelines are restricted to login access by those with a developer agreement.


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## originalgrissel (Mar 5, 2010)

pidgeon92 said:


> If the university is forcing students to buy equipment they do not wish to purchase, perhaps it is time to seek out a different university.


Unfortunately a large number of film schools in the US use only Apple computers & software in their programs so seeking out a different university isn't as easy as it may seem, especially when tuition costs are so varied. At least they give the kids a small discount if they buy it through the school.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

Amazon is developing a web version of their e-reader, so in theory iOS users can still open Safari, browse to Amazon, buy an ebook and read it in their browsers. 

Of course, the path of least resistance will probably be to use iBooks. That will give Apple a competitive advantage.


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## pidgeon92 (Oct 27, 2008)

originalgrissel said:


> Unfortunately a large number of film schools in the US use only Apple computers & software in their programs so seeking out a different university isn't as easy as it may seem, especially when tuition costs are so varied. At least they give the kids a small discount if they buy it through the school.


If the film schools are using them, then one would suspect that the film companies are using them as well. Perhaps a change of career choice is what is needed.


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## mooshie78 (Jul 15, 2010)

Yeah, I was going to say film and graphic design are the only areas on college campuses (I'm a prof) that I've noticed that are totally Apple.  Also some of the journalism schools--Macs for the layout programs etc.

I don't have a problem with their computers.  I'm on PC as there are a few programs I need to use that I can't get in Mac versions and I don't want to hassle with boot camp and all that crap.  I just can't stand the walled garden stuff on the iPad. 

Slick piece of hardware for sure.  But I'll wait for some competitor to match the hardware and do a better job on the OS for my needs.


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## geko29 (Dec 23, 2008)

Jesslyn said:


> The official guidelines are restricted to login access by those with a developer agreement.


I am a developer (or rather I administer the developer account for a company that makes apps). Here are the salient parts of the agreement:



> 11.12
> Apps offering subscriptions must do so using IAP, Apple will share the same 70/30 revenue split with developers for these purchases, as set forth in the Developer Program License Agreement.
> 11.13
> Apps can read or play approved content (magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video) that is sold outside of the app, for which Apple will not receive any portion of the revenues, provided that the same content is also offered in the app using IAP at the same price or less than it is offered outside the app. This applies to both purchased content and subscriptions.
> ...


Those can be found here, though obviously without a registered account, the page is inaccessible. The above is a direct copy and paste of the last three (newest) entries in section 11: Purchasing and Currencies.

11.14 summarily rejects the Kindle, Netflix, and presumably Nook apps as currently presented. 11.13 adds the requirement for IAP with the 30% cut.

Our own app currently runs afoul of rule 11.14. We might be small enough potatoes that Apple will ignore us for a while, but we'll see. And we're hoping that our enrollment process is so long and complicated, and requires disclosure of so much sensitive financial information, that Apple won't want to inject itself in the process (and expose itself to so much liability) that they'll leave us alone. But all we can do is wait and see. But like many others, we can't afford to give Apple a 30% cut of our service fees, so if push comes to shove, we're gone. But hey, we just started development on an Android app, so it's all good.


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## GinnyB (Dec 19, 2009)

I have and always will remain an avid Apple fan.


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## Emma Midnight (Feb 19, 2011)

geko29 said:


> I am a developer (or rather I administer the developer account for a company that makes apps). Here are the salient parts of the agreement:
> 
> Those can be found here, though obviously without a registered account, the page is inaccessible. The above is a direct copy and paste of the last three (newest) entries in section 11: Purchasing and Currencies.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That makes things clearer. I suppose there's a bit of wiggle room regarding books if item 11.12 means that 11.13 and 11.14 apply to subscriptions and not one-time purchases. I have my doubts, but that's the only part that could still use some clarification. Either way, Netflix is affected. I would think they are too important to Apple to lose, however -- unless Apple has their own service they are planning on rolling out.


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## kb7uen Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

My gripe with Apple products has never been the hardware.  I just sold an iPod photo 40GB after six years of use to a friend and the battery and hard drive are still going strong.  He loves it and I moved to the iPod Classic 160GB and love it.  They have always made great hardware, and you pay a high price for it, but it is great.  My gripe with Apple is the dogma they pump into the market to dominate it.  When I hear the word magic being used to describe an Apple product, then I know there is a problem.

Under the surface, all these products pretty much use the same hardware, it is the firmware or OS that makes or breaks the product.  If a person somehow managed to put the Apple IOS on my Samsung Epic, it would be an iPhone with a slide out keyboard and a 4" AMOLED display.  And if someone managed to put Android 2.1 on an iPhone, it would be a Android phone.  There's no magic about any of this except for marketing, and that is something Apple excels at.

When Steve Jobs dies, which will probably be sooner rather than later, the only true equalizer in the world, there will probably be some out to lunch Apple fanatics who will be expecting him to show up at the next big Apple event even though he has passed on.

If Apple had come out with an iPhone 4 on the Sprint network, I would have taken a very serious look at it instead of the Samsung Epic because of the stability Apple brings to the IOS and the apps through the control they have over the whole system.  I would have had complete accessibility with the iPhone 4, which I don't have with Android, I am hoping it will catch up soon though.

AT&T was not an option because I don't like the way they do business period.  I went into their corporate store here in the Olympia mall, already knowing what questions I was going to ask them and already knowing the answers to the the questions I was going to ask them after researching everything on the web, and these people lied to me on many of the answers I was getting from them.  One woman tried to tell me the FCC was responsible for mandating that the carriers have mandatory data plans on smartphones, which is nothing more than a lie itself.  In fact, the FCC feels there is a crisis in the amount of available bandwidth because of how much of it is being used by more and more smartphone customers.  I came home and got on the web to double check her statement, and the FCC never showed up anywhere, but AT&T showed up all over the place, and I know how to do a search to make Google work for me just like many other people do.  They make the assumption that every person who walks in the store is stupid or clueless, and that just isn't the case with everyone who comes in the door.  It is nothing short of blatant stupidity to lie to a customer or potential customer when a person can go home and go on the internet and verify or disspell any statement a sales person makes.  If a sales person isn't aware enough to think of the internet being used to double check what they say to the person they are standing in front of, then they are in the wrong business.  

That AT&T sales person's lie cost her any possibility of an iPhone 4 sale with a two year contract.  When shopping around for a new or replacement product, each customer should pay attention to how a store's sales people treat the potential and current customers before spending any money in that store.  In the case of the Olympia mall AT&T corporate store, their sleazy methods to get a sale are a direct reflection on how that store is managed and I will never buy anything from them or refer anyone to them.

It's really a shame, because I don't have a complaint with Apple's hardware, but when shopping for a cell phone, I know that the carrier and the plan can be even more important than the phone itself.  The iPhone 4 is the most blind friendly phone out there, and I didn't want to walk away from Sprint because they have been a good carrier for me, but it was the no cap feature on their 4G data plan while using the phone or when having it tethered to the computer that made the decision a no brainer.  That's a big deal when you are going to use your phone for everything you do when at home or mobile. 

Gene


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