# Julie's Genre Clinic---Now Accepting New Patients



## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Most of you know that I have a philosophical issue with abusing genre.  As I reader, I hate having to trudge through dozens of unrelated items to find something I am actually interested in just because some marketing person thinks a genre is "hot" now and therefore every book published should be listed under it. Poor genre placement is one of the banes of my existence as a reader. The problem is not unique to indies, but the sheer volume of titles being churned out by the indie community makes it. Though the publishing industry sells more volume, indies produce a more individual titles and thus are more responsible for the search glut caused by mislabeling.

Some of it does boil down to trying to reach the most people possible. But a lot of it is a lack of genre literacy and not realizing what is already out there. So I have put together a genre cheat sheet that provides thumbnail overviews of the major genres and their most common sub-genres. This is not the end all/be all list of genres and definitions, but it certainly can help point authors in the right direction in terms of defining who you are really trying to reach. You may be surprised to learn that your "impossible to define the genre" novel has a very clear genre and a rich literary history already associated with it.

For those interested or who feel they could use a nudge in the right direction, feel free to request a genre exam.  If you aren't sure how to classify your book, post info about it to this thread, and ***** will try to steer you in the right direction.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I sincerely hate when someone calls their book a legal thriller simply because one of the characters is a lawyer, or that their book is a romance simply because the characters have sex.


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## Shaun Jeffrey (Jun 17, 2010)

Because I think it falls into different genres, how would you classify the following going by the book description:

People are predictable. That’s what makes them easy to kill.

Detective Chief Inspector Prosper Snow is in charge of an investigation into a serial killer called The Oracle who turns his victims into macabre works of art. But Prosper harbours a dark secret of his own. He and his old school friends were members of a group called The Kult who made a pact to dish out their own form of vengeance on bullies. Now a member of the group puts their friendship to the test when he makes a far darker request: that they murder someone that raped his wife.

To get away with murder, the friends decide to blame it on The Oracle, but events take a chilling turn when the instigator turns up dead, his body fashioned into a disturbing work of art. Now, one by one, the members of The Kult are being hunted down. 

Just when Prosper thinks things can’t get any worse, his wife is kidnapped and he knows that if he goes to his colleagues for help, he risks his dark deeds being unearthed. If he doesn't, he risks losing all that he holds dear.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

A ghost story. Where does that fit?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Shaun Jeffrey said:


> Because I think it falls into different genres, how would you classify the following going by the book description:


If the primary focus of the plot is to build tension and suspense: Psychological thriller
If the primary focus of the plot is to generate fear or terror: horro

The way you describe it, however, would lead me toward psychological thriller, as the focus seems to be on the investigation itself and a race against the clock to stop the killer. Psychological thrillers often end violently, and I get the feeling this one does too. 

Remember that suspense and terror are closely related but distinctly unique. Suspense is a feeling of uncertainty and anxiety in relation to the unknown or unintended result of certain actions. Horror and terror also involve anxiety, but usually in relation to reactions to events. With suspense, there is usually a ray of hope that potentially there can be a positive outcome. The tension therefore comes from trying to reach that positive outcome while obstacles are thrown in the way. Horror, in contrast, is more associated with despair and desperation. In horror, there may very well be no light at the end of the tunnel, and even if you reach the end of the tunnel you don't know what is waiting there.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Decon said:


> A ghost story. Where does that fit?


A ghost is an entity, not a genre. Where a ghost story would fit depends on what type of story you are trying to tell. In that regard, saying "ghost" story is no different than saying "police story" or "vampire story" or "dog story." You have identified an entity in the story, but not actually said anything about the plot.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> A ghost is an entity, not a genre. Where a ghost story would fit depends on what type of story you are trying to tell. In that regard, saying "ghost" story is no different than saying "police story" or "vampire story" or "dog story." You have identified an entity in the story, but not actually said anything about the plot.


What Julie said. The ghost story is an element, and it can be done in most genres.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I need a double-dose of dark and a single injection of fantasy please.

Do you accept dental floss as payment?


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

Interesting breakdown. Julie, is your philosophy that there can _never _be two genres for a single book? For example, there can't be a gothic horror novel that is also a psychological thriller?

A plot building tension, suspense and generating fear and terror in equal quantities would leave no primary focus.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> I need a double-dose of dark and a single injection of fantasy please.
> 
> Do you accept dental floss as payment?


No, but I do accept chocolate.


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## Decon (Feb 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> A ghost is an entity, not a genre. Where a ghost story would fit depends on what type of story you are trying to tell. In that regard, saying "ghost" story is no different than saying "police story" or "vampire story" or "dog story." You have identified an entity in the story, but not actually said anything about the plot.


Just checking. I have it as a psychological thriller. Those who are squeamish may consider it horror.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Todd Russell said:


> Interesting breakdown. *****, is your philosophy that there can _never _be two genres for a single book? For example, there can't be a gothic horror novel that is also a psychological thriller?
> 
> A plot building tension, suspense and generating fear and terror in equal quantities would leave no primary focus.


I don't ever say "never." What I say is 99.9% of the time, what an author thinks is a new genre or a cross over genre is not. For example, if you were actually familiar with the gothic horror genre, you would already know the answer to your question is predominately 'no'. The goals of those two genres are rather far apart.

ALL plots should employ tension. That does not, however, mean the tension is the _primary motivator _ of the plot. The difference between the tension in a gothic horror and a thriller is that the tension is used to build a slow sense of dread. In a thriller, it is designed to generate an edge-of-your-seat anticipation of what happens next.

That said, there are a handful of authors who deliberately set out to emulate the norms of established multiple genres in their storytelling. Such authors focus on the tropes of the genres and pay attention to style and form. We call those books "literary" however, because they are in fact excerises in form and structure, not narrative and plot.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Decon said:


> Just checking. I have it as a psychological thriller. Those who are squeamish may consider it horror.


Those that are squeamish consider _Twilight_ horror. Most avid Horror fans disagree. 

Don't label things based on what you assume some aspect of the population might think. Select a genre based on what you are actually trying to do. If you are concerned about it, you slap a "paranormal" descriptor in front of it in your product description. So you would call it a paranormal psychological thriller. This indicates the books primary objective is a thriller, but there is a supernatural element at work.


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## Shaun Jeffrey (Jun 17, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If the primary focus of the plot is to build tension and suspense: Psychological thriller
> If the primary focus of the plot is to generate fear or terror: horro
> 
> The way you describe it, however, would lead me toward psychological thriller, as the focus seems to be on the investigation itself and a race against the clock to stop the killer. Psychological thrillers often end violently, and I get the feeling this one does too.


Thanks. I have it listed under Psychological and Police Procedural. So at least one of those seems to be correct. And you're right, it does end violently


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## Jeff Tompkins (Sep 17, 2010)

_Mystery: Focuses on the investigation of a crime that has already occurred in order to bring the guilty party to justice. Unlike the thriller, the focus of the mystery is usually on actual police procedures and intuitive deduction instead of high impact tension._

I think many mystery writers would disagree with that definition. For example, a P.I. mystery novel wouldn't fit that mystery definition because the investigator wouldn't be using police procedures. I think that definition downplays the "high impact tension," and may actually dismiss it entirely, the way it's worded. There can be plenty of tension in a mystery, and as an example, I'd point to the mystery writer Lawrence Block.

The same elements in the above definition could be in thrillers, but under that category in the post "police procedurals" aren't even listed. Clearly they should be, as any readers of the best-selling author John Sandford would agree.

If I've misunderstood these categories, I apologize. I do, however, don't think genre isn't as well-defined as you imply. There's just too much perception involved. For example, I've heard people talk about RED DRAGON by Thomas Harris as a police procedural, because of the elements of the investigation. I've also heard some people talk about it as though it's pure horror (and I've even seen his books placed in the horror section). So...who's to say which reader's perception is correct?

Another question, because it pertains to my work: Where would coming-of-age novels fit in that list?


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Jeff Tompkins said:


> _Mystery: Focuses on the investigation of a crime that has already occurred in order to bring the guilty party to justice. Unlike the thriller, the focus of the mystery is usually on actual police procedures and intuitive deduction instead of high impact tension._
> 
> I think many mystery writers would disagree with that definition. For example, a P.I. mystery novel wouldn't fit that mystery definition because the investigator wouldn't be using police procedures.


And what about cozy mysteries? At least with a PI, you have a professional involved, but in a cozy, it's an amateur sleuth (and often a bumbling one who is just sort of figuring it all out as they go along). They're definitely not using actual police procedures -- usuallly they're blatantly breaking them!

A police procedural focuses on actual police procedures, but not all mysteries are police procedurals.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Jeff Tompkins said:


> I think many mystery writers would disagree with that definition. For example, a P.I. mystery novel wouldn't fit that mystery definition because the investigator wouldn't be using police procedures.


The point is that mysteries tend to focus on HOW the crime is solved, whereas a thriller focuses on the sense of urgency to solve the crime in the first place. The process of how the crime is solved is important to the story. The mystery may indeed include high impact tension, but the book was not focused around building up to that point in the first place. Generally, in a mystery the reader is reading to see if they can figure out "whodunit" before the book ends. With a thriller, you keep reading in anticipation of what happens next.


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## Todd Russell (Mar 27, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't ever say "never." What I say is 99.9% of the time, what an author thinks is a new genre or a cross over genre is not. For example, if you were actually familiar with the gothic horror genre, you would already know the answer to your question is predominately 'no'. The goals of those two genres are rather far apart.


Julie, why the disrespect? "If you were familiar...you would already know..." How do you know what I'm familiar with or not? Why the need to respond to a friendly question this way? Maybe you don't want people to ask you questions?

Here's *your description* of gothic horror, which is what I was questioning:



> a type of fiction that combines elements of both horror and romance, though it rarely results in a HEA (see Romance). The location of events is often essential to the mood of the book, and usually involves at least some limited isolation from the rest of society (such as a castle).


So let's say there's a story with a substantial amount of romance. Not just a subplot, but a main thread in the story. Let's say this story is happening in an isolated place away from society, perhaps an island with scary happenings  This seems to fit *your definition* of gothic horror, yes/no?

Now at the same time there is a race against time on the island and both mental conflicts and physical conflict among the characters. Here's your definition of psychological thriller:



> Psychological thrillers are more dependent on mental battles instead of physical confrontation. Characters often find themselves emotionally or psychologically threatened or challenged.


I wouldn't classify the story as 'gothic horror' I'd label it horror with no subgenre, but according to your definitions the story seems to fit gothic horror and psychological thriller, hence my question. Beta readers suggested to me that it would be more horror with more supernatural elements.

As a reader I don't need supernatural elements to classify as horror but there is a school of thought among readers out there that *horror isn't horror without the supernatural*. And yet in your horror descriptions you don't use the word supernatural anywhere. You use instead with 'paranormal/supernatural' which is a place that horror IMHO these days is being wrongly categorized.

UPDATE: to clarify horror isn't horror without supernatural (which, again, I disagree with)


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Jeff Tompkins said:


> Another question, because it pertains to my work: Where would coming-of-age novels fit in that list?


General fiction. There was a time when the coming-of-age tale was considered its own genre, but most books with that theme are considered general fiction today. Unless the target audience is younger than the protagonists, in which case it would be YA.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

I would revise your definition for mysteries to place the emphasis on solving the crime and the whodunit/puzzle aspect rather than using the term "police procedures" as many mysteries are not police procedurals (which is an actual mystery subgenre rather than being a requirement of a mystery).

I tend to think of the difference between a thriller or suspense and a mystery is that in a thriller or suspense the protagonist is trying to stop something from happening (generally to stop things a crime from occuring or to stop things from getting worse -- often, but not always, they already know who is behind it all, but can't find them) whereas in a mystery, the protagonist is trying to solve who committed the crime.


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## Sybil Nelson (Jun 24, 2010)

I have a problem classifying both Ain't No Sunshine and Guardian of Eden. They deal with pretty series subjects but both star teen protagonist. I'm afraid to call them YA because they are a bit disturbing, but I also don't want to call them romance because the sex is minimal if at all.

ANS:
Though it is against the law in 1960s Virginia, Stephen Phillips wants to marry his colored neighbor, Ruthie. Growing up in a physically abusive home, his love for Ruthie was the only thing that helped him survive. Instead of giving in to social and family prejudice, Stephen decides to fight for love. And it’s a fight that could lead to murder. Racism and revenge darken this psychological drama set against the backdrop of the segregated South. 

GoE
What would you do if you had one chance to kill the man who raped your twelve-year-old sister?

No Judge. No Jury. No witnesses.

Seventeen-year-old child prodigy Garrett Anthony has to answer that question. As he holds a gun to the head of his sister’s rapist, he flashes back to his traumatic past: five-years-old in a foster home, seven-years-old stealing food to survive, and sixteen-years-old visiting his black father in prison for the first time.
After years of fighting to secure a stable life for him and his half-sister, he finally has a scholarship to a prestigious Washington DC private school and the love of a Virginia senator’s daughter. But this new found and tenuous happiness begins to unravel once he reveals the family secret which is the catalyst to the painful decision he must make. Can he take the life of someone else and continue to live with himself?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Todd I think you are overreading what I wrote. There was no disrespect intended. If you were offended, I apologize.

Gothic horror and Psychologicial thrillers are sub-genres of their respective genres. Each still has to conform to the norms of its genre, and in addition has its own unique elements. One of the points that often causes confusion is the romantic element. There is a difference between two characters developing a romantic relationship, and the romance being a central plot point of the story. Just having two characters fall in love does not equate being a romance. Which is why I say "see romance" for further clarification on the point. Having a romantic relationship in a story is not the same thing as telling a story about a romance. This is sort of like saying _Poltergeist_ is a children's movie because the main character is a child and _The Excorist _ is a YA title because the main character is a teenager. The presence of a young adult character does not automatically make something YA, just like the presence of a romance does not automatically make something a romance.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> I have a problem classifying both Ain't No Sunshine and Guardian of Eden. They deal with pretty series subjects but both star teen protagonist. I'm afraid to call them YA because they are a bit disturbing, but I also don't want to call them romance because the sex is minimal if at all.


Whether or not your protagonist is a young person isn't the point. Are the books written for an audience younger than the protagonist, and do they address the life issues of young people? From reading your post, I would think the answer is "no." As far as romances, sex is not an actual requirement per se. I believe the whole genre of "sweet" romances involves chaste relationships. But I also don't get the feeling that the romance is the central plot point of the story, just one additional complication for the protagonist.

If the book focuses on narrative and character development, I would call it general fiction. If you are more focused on form and structure it may be considered literary.

It is, in fact, entirely possible to write a book that does not fit a genre at all. That is what "general fiction" means. It is a story that does not rely on or conform to the tropes of a genre.


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## Jeff Tompkins (Sep 17, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The point is that mysteries tend to focus on HOW the crime is solved, whereas a thriller focuses on the sense of urgency to solve the crime in the first place. The process of how the crime is solved is important to the story. The mystery may indeed include high impact tension, but the book was not focused around building up to that point in the first place.


I have to say I think you're making distinctions without differences here. The process of how a crime is solved is important in thrillers, just as urgency is important in mysteries. As for whether the build-up of tension is equally important, that's kind of the point of most fiction. Without tension of some kind, why would we care at all what happens on the next page or in the next chapter?



Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Generally, in a mystery the reader is reading to see if they can figure out "whodunit" before the book ends. With a thriller, you keep reading in anticipation of what happens next.


In other words, readers keep reading to see what happens and if the conflict can be resolved before the last page. That's true of all fiction.

Of course, we're all entitled to our opinions. That's really my point: There are very few absolutes when determining genre.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It is, in fact, entirely possible to write a book that does not fit a genre at all. That is what "general fiction" means. It is a story that does not rely on or conform to the tropes of a genre.


Very enlightening thread. I'm one of those people who believes there is nothing new under the sun. Until recently, I never put much thought into the fact that authors actually believe they are creating new genres. It's like New Age Music, just because it's difficult to categorize a song, doesn't mean it's a new invention. I would think the same applies to fiction.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

How very helpful!

I have a book I'm working on that I plan to come out with in the spring.  I think it's a paranormal romance, but I'm concerned that maybe it isn't from looking at other books in that category that have very different elements from mine.  It is one of those "hot genres" now and I don't want to put it there and have it be the wrong place.

I hope you can help   I apologize that I have not yet worked on my blurb or my pitch, so this is not as tight as it should be:

The story is two love stories happening across parallel universes.  A girl, Talia, from one universe sees a boy, Trent, travelling from another.  She shouldn't have been able to see him according to the "science" of how this travelling works, and both are fascinated that she can.  It causes them to spend more time together and start to fall in love.  He is from a parallel universe where America is starting to fall apart from civil wars, it's a very dangerous place.  Segregation is prevalent there, but Trent's brother, Reece has fallen in love with a girl of another race, Faith.  It seems that Trent and Talia can never be together because they are in different universes, but a secret from Talia's past suggests that it might be possible to change from one universe to another.  They go on a quest across different universes looking for this solution while things back home with Reece and Faith become more and more dangerous.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Sybil Nelson said:


> I have a problem classifying both Ain't No Sunshine and Guardian of Eden. They deal with pretty series subjects but both star teen protagonist. I'm afraid to call them YA because they are a bit disturbing, but I also don't want to call them romance because the sex is minimal if at all.
> 
> ANS:
> Though it is against the law in 1960s Virginia, Stephen Phillips wants to marry his colored neighbor, Ruthie. Growing up in a physically abusive home, his love for Ruthie was the only thing that helped him survive. Instead of giving in to social and family prejudice, Stephen decides to fight for love. And it's a fight that could lead to murder. Racism and revenge darken this psychological drama set against the backdrop of the segregated South.
> ...


This is something that I dealt with too. When I pitched my book to agents and publishers, there was concern that the subject matter was too shocking for YA, but I had a young protagonist. It didn't seem to fit anywhere because YA agents would reject it for being about fetish and general fiction agents would reject it for the main character being 17. Luckily when I self-published, I found my audience pretty easily and it became clear that it is an adult book.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Jeff Tompkins said:


> I have to say I think you're making distinctions without differences here. The process of how a crime is solved is important in thrillers, just as urgency is important in mysteries. As for whether the build-up of tension is equally important, that's kind of the point of most fiction. Without tension of some kind, why would we care at all what happens on the next page or in the next chapter?


As I pointed out, these were merely thumbnail discriptions designed to give a launch point. If you are interested, this is a great breakdown prepared by the Halifax Library System that gives a detailed breakdown of the differences between mysteries and thrillers. There are all sorts of resources dedicated to individual genres. Folks really interested in classifying their books can (and should) seek out those resources and learn about the genres they are interested in.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

RuthMadison said:


> The story is two love stories happening across parallel universes. A girl, Talia, from one universe sees a boy, Trent, travelling from another. She shouldn't have been able to see him according to the "science" of how this travelling works, and both are fascinated that she can. It causes them to spend more time together and start to fall in love. He is from a parallel universe where America is starting to fall apart from civil wars, it's a very dangerous place. Segregation is prevalent there, but Trent's brother, Reece has fallen in love with a girl of another race, Faith. It seems that Trent and Talia can never be together because they are in different universes, but a secret from Talia's past suggests that it might be possible to change from one universe to another. They go on a quest across different universes looking for this solution while things back home with Reece and Faith become more and more dangerous.


This sounds to me like it might be sci-fi romance. (Which, btw, many, many agents and editors kept saying at RWA that they really want to see more of...)


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> This sounds to me like it might be sci-fi romance. (Which, btw, many, many agents and editors kept saying at RWA that they really want to see more of...)


Yeah, parnormal wouldn't really be the right choice as the characters themselves are not supernatural in origin (unless I am missing something.) My knowledge of the romance genre is limited, but personally it sounds more like the time-travel romance (which is a specific sub-genre of romance). But depending on how the science aspect is presented it could go either way, but I wouldn't say paranormal.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

Is there time travel involved? Maybe I'm just reading the description too quickly, but I didn't see anything about time travel. Travel across parallel universes, yes, but is there a shift in time involed? If not, then it wouldn't be time travel romance, although it very well could be sci-fi romance.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> Is there time travel involved? Maybe I'm just reading the description too quickly, but I didn't see anything about time travel. Travel across parallel universes, yes, but is there a shift in time involed? If not, then it wouldn't be time travel romance, although it very well could be sci-fi romance.


Ruth would need to clarify how she is defining "parallel universes." As I said, I don't know all of the nuances of the romance genre, but I have comes across people who use "parallel" in a way that would be better defined as time travel. And she did say she hadn't clarified her blurb yet so it isn't 100% clear.

I think we are all in agreement that "paranormal" would probably be the incorrect description. Just need to confirm how she is defining this parallel traveling and what it actually means in her setting.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Oh shoot!  Paranormal is wrong, so that makes me feel like I'm back at square one for marketing planning.

There isn't any time travel, but I agree it has a time travel feel to it, in a way.  The idea of the parallel universes is that some events in history are so huge that they tear the world in two and both possibilities go forward, so the time period is exactly the same across all the universes, but their histories are different.

I guess science-fiction romance sounds like the closest.  I had some push back from my sci-fi loving friends on that one.  Since there are no aliens, no space travel, no time travel, etc. they are reluctant to classify it as sci-fi.


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## matt youngmark (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi Julie,

Thanks for putting together the cheat sheet -- it's a wonderful resource. I'd love to get your thoughts on categorizing my horror/humor choose-your-own-adventure. I stuck it in "parody" because that list is topped with Pride & Prejudice & Zombies and the Zombie Survival Guide, but it's not technically a parody of anything.


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## Amanda Brice (Feb 16, 2011)

RuthMadison said:


> I guess science-fiction romance sounds like the closest. I had some push back from my sci-fi loving friends on that one. Since there are no aliens, no space travel, no time travel, etc. they are reluctant to classify it as sci-fi.


Did you ask sci-fi romance fans, or sci-fi fans? There may be a difference. Most hard-core sci-fi fans don't consider sci-fi romance to actually be sci-fi. (I don't read much sci-fi romance, so I'm not really the one to ask, so I don't know if space travel is required.)

But if the world was torn in two and two realities go forward, that seems to me like possibly sci-fi romance.

I'd play on the alternative reality aspect of it, and the romance aspect.

Hmmm...Colette Duke is a KB author who writes sci-fi romance, so perhaps PM her to get her take? Either way, it doesn't seem like paranormal romance to me.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Amanda Brice said:


> Did you ask sci-fi romance fans, or sci-fi fans? There may be a difference. Most hard-core sci-fi fans don't consider sci-fi romance to actually be sci-fi. (I don't read much sci-fi romance, so I'm not really the one to ask, so I don't know if space travel is required.)
> 
> But if the world was torn in two and two realities go forward, that seems to me like possibly sci-fi romance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips and for the other author to contact. I didn't realize there was a sci-fi romance genre! Always learning something new


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

RuthMadison said:


> I guess science-fiction romance sounds like the closest. I had some push back from my sci-fi loving friends on that one. Since there are no aliens, no space travel, no time travel, etc. they are reluctant to classify it as sci-fi.


Of course you would get push back from sci fi lovers. The book is not a science fiction book. it is a romance. BUT, within the romance genre, there is a _sub-genre_ called sci-fi romance, which is not the same thing as claiming a book is BOTH science fiction AND romance. Sci-fi readers aren't going to be your target market. Romance readers who enjoy sci-fi romances are your target market.

Consider it this way, if you see a historical romance, would you automatically assume it is both a history book and a romance? Of course not. You would think it was a romance set in a historical time period.

This is why I keep saying that while I have presented thumbnail explanations, folks who are writing in specific genres should go out and research the nuances of their genre for additional information. Each genre has its own peculiarities, and as a writer you should really know what they are.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

matt youngmark said:


> Hi *****,
> 
> Thanks for putting together the cheat sheet -- it's a wonderful resource. I'd love to get your thoughts on categorizing my horror/humor choose-your-own-adventure. I stuck it in "parody" because that list is topped with Pride & Prejudice & Zombies and the Zombie Survival Guide, but it's not technically a parody of anything.


I don't know. I think it does poke fun at the tropes of the zombie story. Generally parody is used in regards to a specific work, but it is sometimes applies to a concept.

BYW: It took my sister six attempts before her bunny didn't die.


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## RuthMadison (Jul 9, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Of course you would get push back from sci fi lovers. The book is not a science fiction book. it is a romance. BUT, within the romance genre, there is a _sub-genre_ called sci-fi romance, which is not the same thing as claiming a book is BOTH science fiction AND romance. Sci-fi readers aren't going to be your target market. Romance readers who enjoy sci-fi romances are your target market.
> 
> Consider it this way, if you see a historical romance, would you automatically assume it is both a history book and a romance? Of course not. You would think it was a romance set in a historical time period.
> 
> This is why I keep saying that while I have presented thumbnail explanations, folks who are writing in specific genres should go out and research the nuances of their genre for additional information. Each genre has its own peculiarities, and as a writer you should really know what they are.


I understand. Thanks! This is a new genre for me. I have been writing contemporary, present-day romances, so this is a leap into something very new and different for me!


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you for doing this, Julie! I am not sure what genre is my novel. In a nutshell: Alternate reality with a love story propelling the plot. In a world where women have absolute power, men are slaves, and love between a man and a woman is the ultimate perversion. What about it?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

When I grow up, I want to be Julie.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

momilp said:


> Thank you for doing this, *****! I am not sure what genre is my novel. In a nutshell: Alternate reality with a love story propelling the plot. In a world where women have absolute power, men are slaves, and love between a man and a woman is the ultimate perversion. What about it?


When you say the love story propels the plot, does it meet this definition?



> Specifically focuses is on romantic love between two people, with an _emotionally satisfying ending_ (usually, happily ever after, or HEA).


Start there, if this fits the primary objective of the book, it is a romance. From there you want to consider if it fits into a sub-genre. When you say alternate reality, do you mean a setting that resembles modern Earth, but with a different social structure? Or are you talking about a different world entirely? Or is it the real world but set in a future time? Depending on how you are defining alternate reality, it could be either sci-fi, fantasy, or futuristic romance. But I would need to know how you are setting the parameters of your world.

If the romance does not have an emotionally satisfying ending, and is merely being used as a plot device to move the story forward, then you need to clarify the goal of the story. If the couple eventually turn on each other or fail to be together even though they struggled against the odds, for example, then you might be closer to an Urban Fantasy or, depending on how the setting is constructed, cyberpunk.


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## DanM (Mar 30, 2011)

Julie,

When I published The Quaking Sun, I was unable to classify it, so I hoped that reader reviews would tell me how it should be classified. But, despite several good reviews, that hasn't happened. In fact, the opposite has. I even had one reviewer who said "I am hard-pressed to categorize this novel; I can't recall having read anything quite like it." (http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,77340.0.html).

So, I guess my questions are: Does everything fit into some genre or are there works that do not fit any genre? Is General Fiction a work that doesn't fit any genre?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

DanM said:


> So, I guess my questions are: Does everything fit into some genre or are there works that do not fit any genre? Is General Fiction a work that doesn't fit any genre?


There is a difference between "doesn't fit in any genre" and "not written to abide by the norms of a genre." A Sqare peg is not a round peg that refuses to fit in a round hole. Its square peg. General fiction is simply a work of fiction that does not follow any specific trope or genre style, nor rely on devices from a genre.

That said, there is not nearly enough in your book blurb for me to understand what the focus of the book is.


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> When you say the love story propels the plot, does it meet this definition?
> 
> Start there, if this fits the primary objective of the book, it is a romance. From there you want to consider if it fits into a sub-genre. When you say alternate reality, do you mean a setting that resembles modern Earth, but with a different social structure? Or are you talking about a different world entirely? Or is it the real world but set in a future time? Depending on how you are defining alternate reality, it could be either sci-fi, fantasy, or futuristic romance. But I would need to know how you are setting the parameters of your world.
> 
> If the romance does not have an emotionally satisfying ending, and is merely being used as a plot device to move the story forward, then you need to clarify the goal of the story. If the couple eventually turn on each other or fail to be together even though they struggled against the odds, for example, then you might be closer to an Urban Fantasy or, depending on how the setting is constructed, cyberpunk.


The setting resembles modern Earth, same technology with a different social structure. Think Planet of the Apes, with an Amazonian twist. The love story is the reason why things happen, and love will conquer all at the end (three books later), and it will change the social structure.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Alternative Earth Romance does exist. Usually falls under either SF or fantasy.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Alternative Earth Romance does exist.


I have decided that the romance genre is an entire UNIVERSE unto itself.   It has its own rules and laws, and woe to those who enter it without knowing what the heck they are doing!

Which, of course, is all the more reason to make sure your romance is in fact a romance and not just two people making out or having sex.


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Alternative Earth Romance does exist. Usually falls under either SF or fantasy.


Probably alternate reality, SF with strong romantic elements?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

momilp said:


> Probably alternate reality, SF with strong romantic elements?


Also known as romance


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

momilp said:


> Probably alternate reality, SF with strong romantic elements?


*Bangs head*

Let's start over.   

What is the primary focus of the book? Is the primary focus of the book *SPECIFICALLY * about the romantic relationship between the two character, culminating in an emotionally satisfying ending OR is the primary focus on the struggle for equality between the genders, and the romance is merely a plot device to push the story forward. We need to start there. Because those are two different stories.

The difference is going to be in how you present the story. In the case of a romance, the story is about the romance, and the social structure is what provides the conflict. But you are focusing on the romance, and the social structure keeps getting in the way. In the other case, you are telling a story about social upheaval, and the romance is merely the catalyst for that upheaval.

You have to answer the question insofar as what the focus is. What are you trying to convey with the story? What does the reader take away at the end? You have to be able to articulate that before you can classify it as a genre.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

I got pushback from several agents about my book because it doesn't follow the CONVENTIONS of an established genre. Which is different from what the story is about or what drives the story. 

Fifteen years ago, there would be no question the book would have been considered historical romance. However, times have changed. The story is from the heroine's POV only (today's romance usually has both H/h's POVs). And the alpha hero is married to someone else when he has sex with the heroine (a marriage of convenience and the wife is actually supportive of her husband's consort, but still that's a no-no for a traditional romance). 

I received a handful of revision requests from agents who loved the story but didn't know how to market it and could I either up the romance or downplay it? It clearly does not fit with what today's version of a romance is, but it's also too romance-y to comfortably fit under the women's historical tag. And using general fiction as a catch-all is just clumsy when a story clearly has elements of historical fiction and romance.

And then to muddy the waters even more, Amazon puts anything to do with the Arthurian legend into either the Fantasy - Arthurian category (which is no longer author-selectable) or the Fantasy - Historical category (which is). And while I have a WIP that IS historical fantasy, SPOIL has zilch in the way of fantasy.

Thankfully, we don't have to choose a single category online. Amazon lets us choose two and B&N lets us choose up to five. 

I started SPOIL in Historical Fiction and Historical Romance, then shifted the Historical Fiction category tag to Historical Fantasy when I discovered where the majority of Arthurian books were hiding -- and sales shot up (it reached #4 in the Hot New Releases, #30 in the Kindle store and #46 in all books in the Historical Fantasy category in the week after I made the move).

I pitch it as women's historical fiction, heavy on the romance.

Descriptions, reviews and samples help me, as a reader, decide if a book is a (cross-) genre I would enjoy.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi Julie,

I'm useless at this genre classification stuff, so I find this thread very interesting.

My WIP is historical, but I was thinking of pitching it (in the blurb) as "historical adventure" or even "epic historical adventure". Are those valid classifications? Will readers know what they mean?

The book is straight historical in one sense - I stick to the record as is known - and it follows a wide cast of characters as they get caught up in Argentina's war of independence from the Spanish Empire.

It's quite fast-paced, it doesn't linger on details of dress and such, there is no strong romantic element, and there are a lot of battle scenes; it's quite action-driven, following the progress of a twelve-year war across a contintent.

Are either of those tags appropriate? Or should I just stick with plain old "historical fiction"?

Dave


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *Bangs head*
> 
> Let's start over.
> 
> ...


It's a story about social upheavel, the love story is the catalyst for that upheaval. The moral of the story is that human beings should be treated with respect, despite race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. It's a what if situation. What if women were in charge, and men were considered less than domesticated beasts? What if men were enslaved, tortured, killed, for the sake of it? What if love between a woman and a man was considered an unnatural act, a taboo? If I did my job correctly, readers should declare world peace and plant flowers in soldiers' gun as soon as they read the last word of the saga 
That, of course, if I manage to put the Ginecean series under the right genre...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

momilp said:


> It's a story about social upheavel, the love story is the catalyst for that upheaval. The moral of the story is that human beings should be treated with respect, despite race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. It's a what if situation. What if women were in charge, and men were considered less than domesticated beasts? What if men were enslaved, tortured, killed, for the sake of it? What if love between a woman and a man was considered an unnatural act, a taboo? If I did my job correctly, readers should declare world peace and plant flowers in soldiers' gun as soon as they read the last word of the saga
> That, of course, if I manage to put the Ginecean series under the right genre...


Choice a: The book is about two people who fall in love even though they aren't supposed to.
Choice b: The book is about this place with these rules and try to stop two people falling in love.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2011)

Uh, okay. So, using your world-view of genre labels here, my Mike Angel Mysteries are:

Dark, erotic, Historical, Supernatural, Romance, Mystery-Thrillers? 

Wonderful. Why don't I just acronym this bunch of labels as DEHSRMT?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

MikeAngel said:


> Uh, okay. So, using your world-view of genre labels here, my Mike Angel Mysteries are:
> 
> Dark, erotic, Historical, Supernatural, Romance, Mystery-Thrillers?
> 
> Wonderful. Why don't I just acronym this bunch of labels as DEHSRMT?


So that would be a no, you don't understand/accept/acknowledge the concept of genre labeling?


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## jnfr (Mar 26, 2011)

I found that blog post really helpful in thinking about the focus of a novel. Thanks, Julie.


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## Tommie Lyn (Dec 7, 2009)

dgaughran said:


> I'm useless at this genre classification stuff


So am I.

And even when I _do_ manage to come up with a genre for a novel ("Yeah, ok, so I'll write a mystery. And I'll title it ..._and night falls_. Yeah, that'll work."), readers and reviewers assign different labels to it. And not just one label...it depends on who is reading the book as to what classification they give it.

My contemporary novels have been called suspense, thrillers, supernatural suspense, and horror, among other things. So, I give up.

(Why don't we have a smilie that cries, pounds the floor with its fists and melts into a puddle of frustration? I really need one like that sometimes.)


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Yeah, one of my stories (the black and white cover) is a bit of a slippery beast. Reviewers have called it "creepy" or "weird", others have labelled it slipstream, literary, or even horror. As for me, it depends who I am talking to!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

momilp said:


> It's a story about social upheavel, the love story is the catalyst for that upheaval. The moral of the story is that human beings should be treated with respect, despite race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. It's a what if situation. What if women were in charge, and men were considered less than domesticated beasts? What if men were enslaved, tortured, killed, for the sake of it? What if love between a woman and a man was considered an unnatural act, a taboo? If I did my job correctly, readers should declare world peace and plant flowers in soldiers' gun as soon as they read the last word of the saga
> That, of course, if I manage to put the Ginecean series under the right genre...


This description doesn't sound like a romance at all. Depending on how you write it, you may well simply have "general fiction" or "literary fiction" with a sub-genre "Alterative history". There is a lot of contemporary fiction that uses "what if" scenarios. The reason you struggle with picking a genre is that the book doesn't need one. It's simply a contemporary fiction book set in an alternate scenario.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

One thing to touch on based on some of the things folks have said: genre is not decided by democratic vote. It is highly probable that if you ask ten random people, you will get ten different answers. Casual readers aren't as in tune with the nuances of genre as more dedicated genre readers. A "horror reader" whose contact with the genre is limited to whatever new book Stephen King has out has a very different understand of genre than someone who can name the last ten years of Stoker award winners. Whenever a reader tells me "Your book is just like LoTR!" I smile politely and thank him, but I also realize this is a person who has had very limited contact with the fantasy genre as a whole. It is a casual reader who picks up a fantasy book once in a while, but doesn't neccessarily devour the genre. So it is important not to get too many random opinions in an effort to form a consensus. Those opinions will only be as useful as the genre literary of the person you are asking.

_Phoenix_: In the case of your agent, his comments are a result of his own expertise, not neccessarily a reflection of the book's genre. An agent's inability to market a book is not the same as a book lacking a genre. If you sent your book to me, for example, I might say "Gee. this is a great book, but can you add some vampires or aliens because I'm not sure how to market it." That doesn't mean your book NEEDS vampires  It just means my specialization as a publisher is speculative fiction, and I wouldn't know what to do with your book based on the interests of the market I serve.

But this makes it that much more important to classify a book properly. You want your book in the right catagory for those people who actively look for that kind of book. Then you use keywords, tags, and your product desctiption to clarify points in order to attract the casual readers. Most authors work backwards. They try to reach the largest possible audience, and then pinpoint their primary market later. Instead, start with your primary market to build momentum and then slowly fan out to reach the casual readers once you have solidified your base.


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## momilp (Jan 11, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This description doesn't sound like a romance at all. Depending on how you write it, you may well simply have "general fiction" or "literary fiction" with a sub-genre "Alterative history". There is a lot of contemporary fiction that uses "what if" scenarios. The reason you struggle with picking a genre is that the book doesn't need one. It's simply a contemporary fiction book set in an alternate scenario.


I had that feeling... 
Thank you for the diagnoses


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

I like to think I know what genre I am in. Most of my writing has been described as horror with a literary bent. Classic horror, and so forth. However, I have described it as quiet horror, which many have no idea what that means. Dark Fantasy has come to mind, but I'm always concerned that I am confusing genres and sub-genres. I use the supernatural in almost everything I write. There's always hope and love in the stories and someone always trying to escape something.

I have a piece with an editor now that is described as follows:

*Two minutes before Halloween, Jackie Ring, a 15-year-old dreamer, crosses a plane into a shadowy alternate world. With his arrogant 13-year-old sister, Skylar, they have three objectives in mind: Escape from an abusive home; find a peaceful existence, and plant their garden of wine and roses. Instead, what they find are pumpkin people, a steel-bladed cornfield and a familiar woman wanting to steal the dark seeds of their impressionable minds.*

The follow-up is a cross between, 'What Dreams May Come & The Great Escape. Again with some horrific elements and suspense.

I consider both of these to be horror, but again, quiet horror with suspense. I've thought of paranormal horror, but I think the connotations that is associated with paranormal today is not what I have in mind. Any help in helping to define this genre would be fantastic.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

Douglas E Wright said:


> I consider both of these to be horror, but again, quiet horror with suspense. I've thought of paranormal horror, but I think the connotations that is associated with paranormal today is not what I have in mind. Any help in helping to define this genre would be fantastic.


The primary question is whether or not the intent of the novel is to terrify, or if you are merely using horror elements to move the story forward. Whether the horror is "quiet" or loud and obnixous isn't relevant.  is the intent of the story to terrify? We went and saw _Cowboys and Aliens_ recently, and there were a couple of moments that made me jump out of my seat. Those moments of horror, however, didn't make it a horror movie. It is actually a Western, or specifically a science fiction western (which is a sub-genre of the western along with "weird west"). But if you actually look at the structure of the film (and more importantly, the graphic novel it is based on) it is very much structured like a western and follows western themes.

I would be inclined, based on your description, to label it dark fantasy instead of horror. But only you can determine what the intent of the story is. The fact that the heroes cross over into a parallel world, and there appears to be a clear villain and something of a (self-selected) quest follows more closely with the tropes of fantasy than horror. One of the structural differences between fantasy and horror is the "quest," or the idea that the protagonist is seeking something. Usually with horror, you have people who are thrown into situations accidentally or through no fault of their own. Whereas in fantasy, the protagonists tend to actively (even if reluctantly) take up the task.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

> Phoenix: In the case of your agent, his comments are a result of his own expertise, not neccessarily a reflection of the book's genre. An agent's inability to market a book is not the same as a book lacking a genre.


*Julie*, I know enough not to ever rely on a single person's take. I had SEVERAL revision requests along pretty much the same lines. But to go either way would have been to lose the soul of the work -- and I knew I could cross-promote on Amazon.

However, if the book doesn't follow current convention, it DOES become a cross-genre book, IMO, and will attract readers on either side of the divide. Just as it will turn off probably a similar number of readers who look for and depend upon the conventions to deliver the type of read they want. So I'm not overly concerned about the label.

What I am concerned about is how AMAZON categorizes books. It would quite nice if Amazon, B&N, SW and all the other sites out there all agreed on what categories and subcategories to use, but they don't. Nor do the categories they DO use line up nicely with the spreadsheet. Available metadata choice is the ultimate decider.

As for *David*'s South American historical (hey, I remember reading the query for that!), trying to narrow the category beyond Historical Fiction is futile, as HF is as granular as Amazon goes. And even if HF gets subcategories in the near future, who knows which ones they will be?

David, as the categories in Amazon stand now, you have one "for sure" tag: Historical Fiction. Then the question moves to whether it's an Adventure, War or Epic for your second category. If it can fall into any of them -- and from what I remember of the book, it can -- then choose based on overall ranking of competitor titles to determine how popular with readers the category is (I'm betting "Epic" is pretty unpopular), and how many total books are in that category to see if you can give your title a Top 100 ranking boost by listing in a less-competitive field. Then use whichever tags you discard from that decision as part of your Subject tag set.


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## 41419 (Apr 4, 2011)

Hey Phoenix,

Never did get that query quite right 

Your advice on categories is good - mixing the less competitive category with the more competitive one. I like that.

Dave


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

Thank you, Julie! I'm always afraid I'm going to mislabel my books. This should help.

Question for the genre guru, though: Are "epic" and "high" fantasy the same thing? I've heard "epic" defined as longer fantasy, such as Martin, and the rest is "high".


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## Douglas E Wright (Mar 11, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The primary question is whether or not the intent of the novel is to terrify, or if you are merely using horror elements to move the story forward. Whether the horror is "quiet" or loud and obnixous isn't relevant.  is the intent of the story to terrify? We went and saw _Cowboys and Aliens_ recently, and there were a couple of moments that made me jump out of my seat. Those moments of horror, however, didn't make it a horror movie. It is actually a Western, or specifically a science fiction western (which is a sub-genre of the western along with "weird west"). But if you actually look at the structure of the film (and more importantly, the graphic novel it is based on) it is very much structured like a western and follows western themes.
> 
> I would be inclined, based on your description, to label it dark fantasy instead of horror. But only you can determine what the intent of the story is. The fact that the heroes cross over into a parallel world, and there appears to be a clear villain and something of a (self-selected) quest follows more closely with the tropes of fantasy than horror. One of the structural differences between fantasy and horror is the "quest," or the idea that the protagonist is seeking something. Usually with horror, you have people who are thrown into situations accidentally or through no fault of their own. Whereas in fantasy, the protagonists tend to actively (even if reluctantly) take up the task.


Thanks Julie, I used to call myself a Dark Fantasy writer, but somewhere along the line, I dropped the phrase and went to horror. Like Charles L Grant, I tend to write subtly, but then again, there are certainly horrific elements that appear in my stories. The premise above is a good example of what I write. Nothing ever happens without reason. If I have a character go into an abandon house, it's because there's something inside they want to see, not just because the house is there.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2011)

samanthawarren said:


> Thank you, *****! I'm always afraid I'm going to mislabel my books. This should help.
> 
> Question for the genre guru, though: Are "epic" and "high" fantasy the same thing? I've heard "epic" defined as longer fantasy, such as Martin, and the rest is "high".


Technically, "epic" and "high" fantasy are the same thing. It's the world-shaking event. Some people call sword and sorcery "low" fantasy because the events are more personal to the hero. "Epic" doesn't refer to length, but the scope of the story.

Funny thing was one of my old friends from college saw my blog and reminded me of how one of our professors defined the difference between epic and sword and sorcery

Sword and sorcery: Hero fails. Hero and loved ones die.
Epic fantasy: Hero fails. World blows up.

As good of a definition as any.


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## samanthawarren (May 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Technically, "epic" and "high" fantasy are the same thing. It's the world-shaking event. Some people call sword and sorcery "low" fantasy because the events are more personal to the hero. "Epic" doesn't refer to length, but the scope of the story.
> 
> Funny thing was one of my old friends from college saw my blog and reminded me of how one of our professors defined the difference between epic and sword and sorcery
> 
> ...


That helps a lot. Thanks!


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Please Sith Witch, won't you help me? You're my only hope! 

My upcoming book has werewolves as the central characters. They are not very "magic-y" werewolves. It takes place in modern-day Denver, although that's tricky because their culture is not particularly modern. In fact, I'd say the modern setting is more a contrast to them than a part of who they are. It's very dark in tone. Though there is romantic sub-plot, it's definitely not a romance.

My gut reaction was to classify it as Urban Fantasy, though that doesn't quite fit. Scarlet suggested that it was an adventure story, but Werewolf Adventure isn't a category that Amazon has listed. 

Here's the current blurb, though it's still a work in progress:


> When an old friend calls on Brand to help find a missing pack member, he becomes embroiled in a series of dangerous clashes with his kind that make him question his decision to remain isolated from werewolf society. He should be their king, but, Brand refuses his birthright, haunted by the memories of his father's vicious rule.
> 
> Will the Broods of Fenrir spiral further into brutality without him, or, by leading them, could he save his people as well as himself?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Technically, "epic" and "high" fantasy are the same thing. It's the world-shaking event. Some people call sword and sorcery "low" fantasy because the events are more personal to the hero. "Epic" doesn't refer to length, but the scope of the story.
> 
> Funny thing was one of my old friends from college saw my blog and reminded me of how one of our professors defined the difference between epic and sword and sorcery
> 
> ...


LOL

Regarding high vs. low fantasy, I read somewhere that this refers to the levels of magic thrown around - ie. the world setting has a high amount of magic or a low amount of magic, in general. Take Conan, for instance. While there's certainly a fair amount of magic, you don't have mages on every street corner. In fact, they're presented as being fairly uncommon outside of a few countries.

I've no idea if that description of the sub-genres is true or accurate: while I adore fantasy, I'm not an expert on the sub-genres, by any stretch.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

Coral said:


> Please Sith Witch, won't you help me? You're my only hope!


lol If I am your only hope, then I feel sorry for you! 

The primary setting is an urban environment. I am assuming this is "modern, real world Denver" and not an alternative reality Denver. You have supernatural creatures. Sounds like a straightforward urban fantasy. I'm thinking early _Anita Blake_ series before Hamilton turned Anita into a slut. I guess the primary consideration is how do the werewolves interact with the real world? I'm not sure what you mean by their culture not being modern? Do the werewolves live among humans in the city, or are they off on a reservation somewhere? Or is there some hidden portal or something they go through to their own world? Does this werewolf war threaten the city or is it isolated somehow?


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

Arkali said:


> LOL
> 
> Regarding high vs. low fantasy, I read somewhere that this refers to the levels of magic thrown around - ie. the world setting has a high amount of magic or a low amount of magic, in general. Take Conan, for instance. While there's certainly a fair amount of magic, you don't have mages on every street corner. In fact, they're presented as being fairly uncommon outside of a few countries.
> 
> I've no idea if that description of the sub-genres is true or accurate: while I adore fantasy, I'm not an expert on the sub-genres, by any stretch.


LoTR is considered the classic epic fantasy. But think about the actual amount of magic at work in it. Even Gandalf, Mr. Ubermage, doesn't really case a lot of spells. There are few magic weapons. Unless you are reading _Forgotten Realms_ novels (where you can't spit without hitting a magic user) most high fantasy has magic few and far between.


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## stepartdesigns (Mar 19, 2011)

Hi Julie,

I'd like your assistance with my next novel and the genre that would best fit it.

_Bootlegger Haze_ is the name of the novel I plan to publish. Here is the book blurb.

Buford Tee is back! If you loved Buford Tee in "Rock" and from _Trouble Down South and Other Stories_, you're going to love him even more in _Bootlegger Haze_. One of the biggest colored bootleggers in Mississippi and known for selling the best whiskey in Jones County, Buford Tee learns his craft from his grandfather, who takes him in and raises him after the murder of his mother. His rival, Morris York, a white bootlegger, hates Buford Tee for drawing away his customers, who favor Buford Tee's top-notch whiskey to York's watered-down hooch. York's resentment is also fueled by his recollections of his stepfather's infidelity with Buford Tee's mother, a union which resulted in the birth of Buford Tee. York believes his mother, who dies shortly after discovering the affair, died of a broken heart, and he sets out to destroy Buford Tee, although others close to him suffer his wrath.

Thanks,

Katrina


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## Victoria J (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you very much for that cheat sheet Julie. It clarifies a lot of things for me. Especially the differences between certain sun-genres within fantasy and horror.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

stepartdesigns said:


> Buford Tee is back! If you loved Buford Tee in "Rock" and from _Trouble Down South and Other Stories_, you're going to love him even more in _Bootlegger Haze_. One of the biggest colored bootleggers in Mississippi and known for selling the best whiskey in Jones County, Buford Tee learns his craft from his grandfather, who takes him in and raises him after the murder of his mother. His rival, Morris York, a white bootlegger, hates Buford Tee for drawing away his customers, who favor Buford Tee's top-notch whiskey to York's watered-down hooch. York's resentment is also fueled by his recollections of his stepfather's infidelity with Buford Tee's mother, a union which resulted in the birth of Buford Tee. York believes his mother, who dies shortly after discovering the affair, died of a broken heart, and he sets out to destroy Buford Tee, although others close to him suffer his wrath.


Doesn't really sound like genre fiction at all. You would probably file this as "general fiction" with a sub-catagory "family saga" assuming the primary focus of the story is the generational friction between the Tees and the Yorks. Or, if the primary focus is more on the racial tension and race relations, consider a sub-catagory of "African-American literature". Depending on how the story plays out, it could go either way.


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## EGranfors (Mar 18, 2011)

Great idea!  I have so much trouble trying to fit my books into one or two categories.  The new one is "women's fiction," but that doesn't mean men won't like it!


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## stepartdesigns (Mar 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Doesn't really sound like genre fiction at all. You would probably file this as "general fiction" with a sub-catagory "family saga" assuming the primary focus of the story is the generational friction between the Tees and the Yorks. Or, if the primary focus is more on the racial tension and race relations, consider a sub-catagory of "African-American literature". Depending on how the story plays out, it could go either way.


Julie, thanks. I have been trying to narrow my focus, and I like the family saga category as that is more in line with the plot of the story.

Katrina


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## tkmurphy (Apr 21, 2011)

Ok I will play. I have never been a genre purist, as I read all kinds of books, as long as they are interesting. So now that I am writing, I am having some trouble deciding where it should be placed.

My two books in my sig are part of a series. The first is a novella, The American Nightmare. Basically, about Bob, a man in his fifites, living the American dream, when everything goes wrong. Unable to deal with reality, his psyche collapses and this book follows him on his path of blood, gore and horror. Not sure if it is srial killer or a thriller or  a horror? To me horror is something like Evil Dead and yet I wouldn't consider Jurassic Park to be horror.

The second one," The Retreat" is the sequel. Here a terrible accident happens, which unglues him even further and he roams the country, spilling blood. But then he returns to California and meets up with a strange group of people who run a nudist retreat. He is attracted to them and frightened at the same time, but decides to ignore his fears and stay. He discovers terrible things at the retreat and a vicious battle ensues. Again, not sure-thriller, horror, seriall killers?

My third book ,"Two sisters" is to be released shortly. This a completely different book and I am having trouble deciding on the genre. I don't have a clue where it will fit. This is about two sisters, who grow up in a  farm. One moves out and makes it big in Southern California. The other stays in the farm, marries the boy next door and continues doing what their family has done for generations. The sisters grow apart, only thing common between then is their father.Then disaster strikes for the first one and her world collapses around her and her dad has just passed too. The sisters reconcile and the urban sister is nourished by her rural sibling and the extended family and goes back into the world. Lots of concepts, love, loss, grief, death, very strong emotions, meaning of life questions, breakdown and finding love again and getting up after crashing and burning. I am not sure if I can call it chic lit?? It seems so bubble gummy! Not sure if it is just women's fiction? Not really sure which genre to label it, when I upload.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> LoTR is considered the classic epic fantasy. But think about the actual amount of magic at work in it. Even Gandalf, Mr. Ubermage, doesn't really case a lot of spells. There are few magic weapons. Unless you are reading _Forgotten Realms_ novels (where you can't spit without hitting a magic user) most high fantasy has magic few and far between.


Hrrrm. That's an excellent point, Julie. LOL My personal break-down on fantasy is "classic" and "urban" - but that definitely ain't official  Well, Urban Fantasy is, but when you get to the other side of the fence, the "classic" side - yeah. I lump it all together.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> lol If I am your only hope, then I feel sorry for you!
> 
> The primary setting is an urban environment. I am assuming this is "modern, real world Denver" and not an alternative reality Denver. You have supernatural creatures. Sounds like a straightforward urban fantasy. I'm thinking early _Anita Blake_ series before Hamilton turned Anita into a slut. I guess the primary consideration is how do the werewolves interact with the real world? I'm not sure what you mean by their culture not being modern? Do the werewolves live among humans in the city, or are they off on a reservation somewhere? Or is there some hidden portal or something they go through to their own world? Does this werewolf war threaten the city or is it isolated somehow?


Correct. It's not an alternative world. Well, unless you consider the fact that werewolves are running around alternative. The ones in this story do live in the city among the humans. No portals or anything, like I said it's not very magical. They are a separate species, so while they live in cities they do tend to keep to themselves. They have their own social hierarchy and rules. I would say that the city isn't really threatened. There are relatively few of them compared to the human population. One of them could do a lot of damage, but it's really in their best interest not to let that happen.

I did think Urban Fantasy was the best category, but I wanted to be sure because it's different from most of what I've read in that genre. They are more at war with themselves than anything in the urban world, and that's where my confusion came in I think. They are kind of backwards and barbaric, so I guess you could say that the world's influence on them has shown them that they can't keep on the same way.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

Coral said:


> They are kind of backwards and barbaric, so I guess you could say that the world's influence on them has shown them that they can't keep on the same way.


That is sort of the classic urban fantasy motif, that struggle between the real world and the paranormal and how each impacts the other. In this case, the city stifles the werewolves instincts and they struggle to adapt.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

tkmurphy said:


> My two books in my sig are part of a series. The first is a novella, The American Nightmare. Basically, about Bob, a man in his fifites, living the American dream, when everything goes wrong. Unable to deal with reality, his psyche collapses and this book follows him on his path of blood, gore and horror. Not sure if it is srial killer or a thriller or a horror? To me horror is something like Evil Dead and yet I wouldn't consider Jurassic Park to be horror.
> 
> The second one," The Retreat" is the sequel. Here a terrible accident happens, which unglues him even further and he roams the country, spilling blood. But then he returns to California and meets up with a strange group of people who run a nudist retreat. He is attracted to them and frightened at the same time, but decides to ignore his fears and stay. He discovers terrible things at the retreat and a vicious battle ensues. Again, not sure-thriller, horror, seriall killers?


Horror doesn't have to have a supernatural element. _The Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ is a horror movie, but it doesn't have a single supernatural critter in it. Serial Killer/slasher is actually one of those weird little niche categories of the horror genre (my little sister has dozens of serial killer books...and zombie books.) If you adopt the Stephen King approach, terror is the purest emotion a horror writer can achieve, but if you can't terrorize then you horrify. And if you can't horrify, you gross-out.    The serial killer motif tends toward that lower end of the spectrum.


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## SusanneSpencer (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Julie

I must admit I'm struggling with the genre of my novel, The Wishing Place.  Maybe you could offer your suggestions.  I'd like to think it was literary, but not sure I've achieved that - it's my first novel.  It's essentially about a romantic relationship but also other relationships with some psychological aspects and some suspense. Not a HEA ending so probably not romance. If not literary then maybe contemporary women's fiction or general fiction?  Here's the blurb:

After a period away, Laura Mellors, thirty-three, independent and capable, returns home to begin a new phase of her life. On her first day back a chance encounter with Sarah, whose hostility arouses in Laura a strange and inexplicable compulsion to discover its cause, sets her on a path to a relationship with Michael, Sarah's ex-husband. These two people affect her life to such a degree she is forced to confront disturbing questions about who she really is and to face the ultimate challenge of saving her sanity. Kath, her old friend, is a trusted source of support but, when tragedy strikes, she is far away in Australia. Who can Laura turn to now? 

This is a story about the power of love: how falling in love can reveal aspects of our self we never even imagined existed; how love can change us for the better or for the worse and how love has the power to heal but also to seriously damage.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

Julie,

I've been struggling to categorize my book, The Great Altruist, since before it was published. I'll include the Amazon description below, but basically it is a story about a girl who travels through time to help people fix mistakes. Her powers are built into her genes, but there is also a series of events that take place aboard a ship in space that travels into the future using a time-machine in hopes of bringing back a weapon to annihilate all life.

Here's the problem, though. I think of time-travel as mostly fantasy in much the same way I would describe Back to the Future. There's a scientific element to it, but it's not exactly sci-fi. Neither is my book. In fact, the first part tells the story of a Holocaust survivor who tries to prevent WWII and it is rather heavy on WWII history. The second part is about a man trying to save his parent's marriage by uncovering their deepest secrets. Only the third and fourth part deal with space flight of any kind.

As you can see, my book kind of jumps all over the place genre-wise. It goes from historical fiction to urban fantasy to futuristic sci-fi in the span of 400 pages! I've tried using "time-travel" as a keyword and science-fiction/fantasy as a general category, but as your cheat sheet so elegantly points out readers have come to expect something very specific when sci-fi or fantasy are mentioned.

Any ideas?

Amazon description:

"Genesis is nine inches tall, travels through time, and never wears clothes. She's brash, cocky, and even a little arrogant. But when people have a mistake from the past they want to fix, she's ready. It doesn't matter if she's trying to help a Holocaust survivor find her lost parents and prevent World War II, or help a lonely young man reclaim the love of his life and save his parent's marriage. Genesis has the power and desire to help!

But when she mysteriously loses her powers, becomes a normal woman, and decides to settle down, the leader of a secret organization is planning to travel into the future and destroy all of humanity!

Can Genesis rise to the new challenge and save seven billion lives? Or will the organization's most twisted agent prove too much for even Genesis to handle?

Filled with ruthless secret societies, backstabbing parents, and a vicious battle across time and space, The Great Altruist is the story about a powerful woman whose only limitation is her compulsion to serve others."


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

So urban fantasy occurs in a modern setting with mixed paranormal/normal. Does it have to occur in an urban environment? Can  the same basic thing happen in a small town?  I've always wondered. If Dresden lived in small town Ohio would it still be urban fantasy?


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That is sort of the classic urban fantasy motif, that struggle between the real world and the paranormal and how each impacts the other. In this case, the city stifles the werewolves instincts and they struggle to adapt.


Thank you, venerable Sith Witch. UF it stays.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

SusanneSpencer said:


> Hi *****
> 
> I must admit I'm struggling with the genre of my novel, The Wishing Place. Maybe you could offer your suggestions. I'd like to think it was literary, but not sure I've achieved that - it's my first novel. It's essentially about a romantic relationship but also other relationships with some psychological aspects and some suspense. Not a HEA ending so probably not romance. If not literary then maybe contemporary women's fiction or general fiction? Here's the blurb:


Literary fiction is generally defined as work that focuses more on form and style than narrative and plot. Of course a good literary work also should have a good narrative, but generally literary works are somewhat experimental in that they play with different structural aspects of writing. So depending on how you approached the presentation of the story, you would chose either literary or general fiction, and in either case women's literature would be the appropriate sub-category. If it was a spunky narrative, I'd say chick lit, but I don't get that vibe from what you are describing.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> I've been struggling to categorize my book, The Great Altruist, since before it was published. I'll include the Amazon description below, but basically it is a story about a girl who travels through time to help people fix mistakes. Her powers are built into her genes, but there is also a series of events that take place aboard a ship in space that travels into the future using a time-machine in hopes of bringing back a weapon to annihilate all life.


First thing is that the book doesn't actually jump from historical fiction to urban fantasy to sci fi. You still have one overriding plot and the only thing that is changing is the primary location. I am going to assume that the way you present the characters, plot, and the actual writing style does not change from plot point to plot point. I'm assuming here that the writing style remains consistent throughout the narrative. Is it safe to say we are relying on magic, and not science, for the time travel aspect?

Sounds like a straightforward contemporary fantasy. You have all of the aspects of a traditional fantasy, but your story is set (at least starting in) the modern world. Contemporary fantasy with time travel for the sub genre.

Now if you do in fact fundamentally change the presentation from plot point to plot point, then it would be more dabbling in the literary style (which focuses more of form and structure) but I don't get the impression that was what you were doing.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> ...Is it safe to say we are relying on magic, and not science, for the time travel aspect?


Actually, the method of time-travel is genetic. Specifically, her genes have been altered so that she can manipulate energy and thus travel through time, fly, create fireballs with her hands, etc. And there is a more standard time-travel machine that is introduced later on. So no magic.

Would you still call it contemporary fantasy with this clarification?


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## SusanneSpencer (Jul 28, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Literary fiction is generally defined as work that focuses more on form and style than narrative and plot. Of course a good literary work also should have a good narrative, but generally literary works are somewhat experimental in that they play with different structural aspects of writing. So depending on how you approached the presentation of the story, you would chose either literary or general fiction, and in either case women's literature would be the appropriate sub-category. If it was a spunky narrative, I'd say chick lit, but I don't get that vibe from what you are describing.


Julie, thanks. That's really clarified things for me. It's general fiction/women's literature for sure.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2011)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> Actually, the method of time-travel is genetic. Specifically, her genes have been altered so that she can manipulate energy and thus travel through time, fly, create fireballs with her hands, etc. And there is a more standard time-travel machine that is introduced later on. So no magic.


And how were her genes manipulated? There is no such thing as "generic" time travel.   You have two options, some sort of magic or some sort of science. You have to decide which it was, and the book should reflect that. I have huge concerns regarding plot continuity (and unrelated issue to be sure) if you as the author can't define HOW she got these powers in the first place. That indicates a world-building issue.

You have to determine how these extraordinary events are possible in your setting. You have to define the rules. Even if you don't explain them in the book, YOU have to know what they are so that you keep your facts straight. Otherwise, you end up just painting yourself into corners and then giving characters arbitrary powers in order to fix it. This is a bigger problem than placing a book in the wrong genre.

Further, if you can't explain how the powers come to be, how can you explain to a potential reader what to expect? What I'm discussing here is a world-building issue, but it can make properly classifying your book problematic if the world-building aspect is not clear.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And how were her genes manipulated? There is no such thing as "generic" time travel.   You have two options, some sort of magic or some sort of science. You have to decide which it was, and the book should reflect that. I have huge concerns regarding plot continuity (and unrelated issue to be sure) if you as the author can't define HOW she got these powers in the first place. That indicates a world-building issue.
> 
> You have to determine how these extraordinary events are possible in your setting. You have to define the rules. Even if you don't explain them in the book, YOU have to know what they are so that you keep your facts straight. Otherwise, you end up just painting yourself into corners and then giving characters arbitrary powers in order to fix it. This is a bigger problem than placing a book in the wrong genre.
> 
> Further, if you can't explain how the powers come to be, how can you explain to a potential reader what to expect? What I'm discussing here is a world-building issue, but it can make properly classifying your book problematic if the world-building aspect is not clear.


Did I saw generic? I meant genetic....Oh, nevermind, I see what you did there!

I have determined how her genes are manipulated in the book. There isn't a lot of technobabble, but I never leave open the possibility that it is related to magic. The means of time-travel is always scientific - even if there is no such thing (or never will be). This is the reason why I'm leaning towards calling it "fantasy" because of the unrealistic aspect of the story. But since the methods are science-based (read NOT magic) then perhaps it should be called sci-fi. (And although I DO explain how her genes are manipulated, I'm reluctant to share so as not to spoil it for potential readers. If you think knowing the answer will help classify it better, let me know and I'll PM you.)


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2011)

Z.D. Robinson said:


> Did I saw generic? I meant genetic....Oh, nevermind, I see what you did there!


lol

You don't need technobabble to be sci-fi. This is something a lot of people get confused with. That is why there is a difference between hard science fiction, which is highly technical, and soft science fiction. All you need is for the science to be _plausible_, not probable or even possible. And that the implications of the science have a fundamental impact on the plot (which from what you are now saying, they do). So you would have a sci-fi novel with a sub-genre time travel.

The key point is that you firmly establish in the book that you are dealing with some sort of science, and not allowing the science to get lost in the equation (even if it is never explained in detail). In order for it to be sci-fi, the science has to have some sort of rules of behavior that determine how the powers manifest and work. So long as that framework exists, you should be fine.

This is why it is great to talk through these things. You start pulling back the layers and eventually get to the root.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks a lot, Julie. Now I'm off to re-categorize!


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

So... the novella in my signature. I'm (demonstrably) bad at identifying genre, obviously, but, um... Takes place in the present day, in and around a decent-sized city. The main character may or may not be a hero, but he's got a big sword, somehow. There's someone who may or may not be an invisible ninja assassin. There's a date - romantic dinner, stroll along the beach as the sun sets, this and that and some other stuff - which is interrupted by the arrival of what might be a maybe-mythical creature. Hilarity ensues, the sort-of-hero _eventually_ slays the critter, gets the girl, and, like all good fairy tales, they live happily ever after.

Urban fantasy, yes/no? Paranormal romance, yes/no? Seems like it could maybe go either way, but I'd rather not get flamed by purists.  An utterly appalling badly-selling travesty, yes/no? Something else, entirely? I'll happily send anyone a copy if they want to try and make an educated guess as to how to tag it...


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2011)

George Berger said:


> Urban fantasy, yes/no? Paranormal romance, yes/no? Seems like it could maybe go either way, but I'd rather not get flamed by purists.  An utterly appalling badly-selling travesty, yes/no? Something else, entirely? I'll happily send anyone a copy if they want to try and make an educated guess as to how to tag it...


No, it can't go either way. Romances are SPECIFICALLY about the relationship between the hero and heroine. Just winning the girl at the end doesn't qualify as a romance.

You touch on a lot of "gimmick" points, but I don't actually know what your story is about. You got a ninja, a swordsman, a chick that has to be saved, and some sort of creature. But what is the plot? Or is the entire novella one long running joke (which is fine, if you are writing a comedy. Perfectly acceptable). Genres are not defined by their gimmicks. They are defined by their goals. So you need to specify what the purpose of the story is and what the story's actual plotline is, not just rattle off a laundry list of stuff in it.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I don't actually know what your story is about... So you need to specify what the purpose of the story is and what the story's actual plotline is, not just rattle off a laundry list of stuff in it.


I have no clue either, so "appalling travesty" it is. Yay me.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2011)

George Berger said:


> I have no clue either, so "appalling travesty" it is. Yay me.


ROFL

I believe "train wreck" is a perfectly valid genre lol


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I believe "train wreck" is a perfectly valid genre lol


Thanks, I added that as a tag. We'll see what happens.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

For those following along at home, Amazon's current #1 title for the tags "appalling" and "train wreck" was reviewed today. Their verdict?



> The word fairytale doesn't properly describe it, but it does have it's happy ending with some yummy exotic food. (Spoilers.) ... It also has light language and sex scenes which don't set it in Erotica, but doesn't get out of Erotica.


 

_--George, confusing readers one book at a time_


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2011)

George Berger said:


> For those following along at home, Amazon's current #1 title for the tags "appalling" and "train wreck" was reviewed today. Their verdict?
> 
> 
> 
> _--George, confusing readers one book at a time_


ROFL

You should promote that. The #1 Train Wreck on Amazon! Now with 50% more Appalling!


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## GerrieFerrisFinger (Jun 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Most of you know that I have a philosophical issue with abusing genre.  As I reader, I hate having to trudge through dozens of unrelated items to find something I am actually interested in just because some marketing person thinks a genre is "hot" now and therefore every book published should be listed under it. Poor genre placement is one of the banes of my existence as a reader. The problem is not unique to indies, but the sheer volume of titles being churned out by the indie community makes it. Though the publishing industry sells more volume, indies produce a more individual titles and thus are more responsible for the search glut caused by mislabeling.
> 
> Some of it does boil down to trying to reach the most people possible. But a lot of it is a lack of genre literacy and not realizing what is already out there. So I have put together a genre cheat sheet that provides thumbnail overviews of the major genres and their most common sub-genres. This is not the end all/be all list of genres and definitions, but it certainly can help point authors in the right direction in terms of defining who you are really trying to reach. You may be surprised to learn that your "impossible to define the genre" novel has a very clear genre and a rich literary history already associated with it.
> 
> For those interested or who feel they could use a nudge in the right direction, feel free to request a genre exam.  If you aren't sure how to classify your book, post info about it to this thread, and Julie will try to steer you in the right direction.


Hi Doc, here for the exam:

THE HISTORY:
One cold, foggy morning in January, 1921, a five-masted schooner in full sail plowed into Diamond Shoal in the infamous Graveyard of the Atlantic. Known to history as The Ghost Ship, her officers and crew were not on board and their bodies never washed ashore. The only living thing on board was a six-toed cat. Also, her anchors and lifeboats were missing. Six agencies investigated the mystery, but it was never solved.

THE NOVEL:
Ninety years later, Ann Gavrion travels to Cape Hatteras to get over the loss of her fiancé in an airplane crash. She meets the enigmatic, yet charming, Lawrence Curator on the beach.
Behind her she hears the cries of villagers. "Shipwreck!"
A surfman runs up and shouts that the missing schooner, her sails set, is aground on the shoal. Ann recognizes the enormous ship from a photograph she'd seen the night before.
So begins her journey back to 1921 with the man the Navy sent to investigate the grounding of the great ship.
When Lawrence and Ann solve the mystery, Ann must return to her world. On the very beach where she'd begun her voyage with Lawrence, she meets his great-grandson, Rod. Exhausted, wet, she spills an account of her fabulous sea adventure. He calls her a charlatan and accuses her of using his famous ancestor to write a first person account of the tragedy for her magazine. 
How many times, how many ways, must she prove that her voyage was real to Rod, with whom she is falling in love, and the unbelievers of the world?


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2011)

GerrieFerrisFinger said:


> Hi Doc, here for the exam:


OK, let's check your pulse lol

You got a whole mess of tags on the Amazon page that indicate a romance, but you have it catagorized as horror. So first thing is first: what is the goal of the story? What is the central theme? What is it that you are trying to convey? There is nothing in the description that says "horror" at all. There is nothing in what is presented that even hints at anything scary.


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## WorldPax (Aug 8, 2011)

Okay, let's see if I have this correct.

"A Top-Secret genetic anomaly, Adam was created by the so-called “Men in Black” to save the Earth from an (as of yet) undisclosed threat.
Genetically engineered using both human and alien DNA, and the perfect combination of both, he is smarter, faster, and stronger than any human, yet lacks the knowledge of day to day interpersonal “human” skills.
Beautiful and educated, CIA consultant Kate Harper becomes his guide through the human world, a world that Adam has only seen from afar.
Discovering an imminent alien threat to enslave mankind, Kate and Adam must utilize all of their considerable resources and skill to not only survive, but to expose and defeat the enemy.
They will live, love, and fight together until the alien menace, ruling the Earth from the shadows, has been defeated.... or they will die trying."

Science fiction or Thriller/Action-Adventure?

If I ask myself the question, what am I trying to do, I come up with the definition of a thriller. Kind of hard to ignore the sci-fi wrapper though. So science fiction is my final answer.

Next question, romance? Readers have said it reads like one, but Julie stated previously that they are probably not qualified to make that distinction (one reader was a librarian though) regardless, i will stipulate. So i ask myself, which is the main focus? The relationship between the characters or defeating the alien menace? That's where I run into trouble (and the reports of finding me crying in my office have been greatly exaggerated). I spend a lot of time on Adam and Kate, but let's say hypothetically they defeat the alien menace. Would I have anything more to write. Yes, but...

Darn it, when I first started typing this, I thought I had it.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Sounds like some of the classic pulp fiction of the '50s and '60s, most of which are now considered SF (but SF is the eternal dumping ground of the publishing world, remember)...


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

WorldPax said:


> Okay, let's see if I have this correct.
> 
> "A Top-Secret genetic anomaly, Adam was created by the so-called "Men in Black" to save the Earth from an (as of yet) undisclosed threat.
> Genetically engineered using both human and alien DNA, and the perfect combination of both, he is smarter, faster, and stronger than any human, yet lacks the knowledge of day to day interpersonal "human" skills.
> Beautiful and educated, CIA consultant Kate Harper becomes his guide through the human world, a world that Adam has only seen from afar.


I think you clearly have sci-fi. This is a case of overthinking it. From your description, a great deal of the plot revolves around Adam's acclimation to human culture. He is the epitomy of the struggle to define what it means to be human in an age of genetic manipulation. The alien invasion is the reason for his existence, but the story is very specifically about him if I am reading your blurb correctly.

As to romance, remember, just because two characters fall in love that does NOT make it a romance. The key point is this. Is the romance the driving force of the story, or merely the by-product of how the story develops? Romances are very specifically about the relationship between the hero and heroine, with everything else around them serving to either challenge the romance or draw attention to it.


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Nice description of romance genre, Julie.


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## WorldPax (Aug 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> He is the epitomy of the struggle to define what it means to be human in an age of genetic manipulation.


I may steal that for volume 2 



> As to romance, remember, just because two characters fall in love that does NOT make it a romance. The key point is this. Is the romance the driving force of the story, or merely the by-product of how the story develops? Romances are very specifically about the relationship between the hero and heroine, with everything else around them serving to either challenge the romance or draw attention to it.


My conclusion from that. It does not technically deserve to be in the Romance genre, but I think I'm safe in marketing the romantic element. My confusion most likely lies in the genesis of the story. Trucker(me) breaks down 700 miles from home on Valentines day, and decides to write his wife a short story, because she is an avid reader of the romance. Her enthusiasm for the short inspired me, an avid reader of thrillers, science fiction, and yes George, 50-60's pulp, to expand the story.

Thank you Julie.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

WorldPax said:


> I may steal that for volume 2
> 
> My conclusion from that. It does not technically deserve to be in the Romance genre, but I think I'm safe in marketing the romantic element. My confusion most likely lies in the genesis of the story. Trucker(me) breaks down 700 miles from home on Valentines day, and decides to write his wife a short story, because she is an avid reader of the romance. Her enthusiasm for the short inspired me, an avid reader of thrillers, science fiction, and yes George, 50-60's pulp, to expand the story.
> 
> Thank you *****.


By all means don't shy away from discussing the romantic element. Most people like romances in their story, even if they don't read the romance genre. Heck, my boyfriend gets mad if his video games don't have a romance option for his characters. He was very upset that he didn't get the girl at the end of Fallout III  .


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## GerrieFerrisFinger (Jun 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> OK, let's check your pulse lol
> 
> You got a whole mess of tags on the Amazon page that indicate a romance, but you have it catagorized as horror. So first thing is first: what is the goal of the story? What is the central theme? What is it that you are trying to convey? There is nothing in the description that says "horror" at all. There is nothing in what is presented that even hints at anything scary.


You are so right. The horror label did not come from me, but a fellow writer who thinks his sea horror and mine are alike. Not at all. You've pegged it. It's a time travel romantic suspense. I'm going over and take off the horror tag.

Thanks for clueing me.
Gerrie


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm reviving the clinic because I'm working on something new and can't figure out what genre it would belong in. It's heavily romantic and sort of period, but doesn't take place during the history of this planet so historical is out. There's no magic, so I'm not sure if it would fit in fantasy. Is just being in a strange land enough to make it fantasy even without dragons or magic or anything fantastical? The plot revolves around a duke's daughter trying to secure her place after her father dies, so there are political sort of machinations at work as well as the romantic storyline.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2011)

Coral Moore said:


> I'm reviving the clinic because I'm working on something new and can't figure out what genre it would belong in. It's heavily romantic and sort of period, but doesn't take place during the history of this planet so historical is out. There's no magic, so I'm not sure if it would fit in fantasy. Is just being in a strange land enough to make it fantasy even without dragons or magic or anything fantastical? The plot revolves around a duke's daughter trying to secure her place after her father dies, so there are political sort of machinations at work as well as the romantic storyline.


The first question is what is the PRIMARY FOCUS? Is the primary focus on the heroine's relationship with the hero, with the political machionations weaving AROUND their relationship, and does it have a HEA? If yes, then it is a romance. If the primary focus is the politics, and the romance is merely weaving around the politics, then it isn't a romance.

Insofar as the world: Is it recognizable as Earth, or is it an actual other world? If you are simply using an alternate history and making up a duchy in a France in, say, the 16th century, but the setting is otherwise recognizable as 16th century France, then it isn't a fantasy. You can make up cities and whatnot without the book becoming fantasy. Modern authors make up city and even country names all the time. But if everyone is human, there are no supernatural humanoids or monsters, no magic, and you are just essentially transplanting Medieval England onto a different planet...no...it would not be a fantasy.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie's genre talk is like foreplay for me


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

May I play?

My book is about a boy with gender identity disorder who's been released from a juvenile facility and is now trying to reintegrate herself (as a female) into high school and her newly expanded family (she now has a conservative stepdad). The entire time, she is haunted by a Lovecraftian deity that causes her to 'shift' in and out of a parallel plane of existence, and see invisible, parasitic creatures that feed off human emotions in the 'real' world.

The story is about her struggling to gain social acceptance of her gender identity, while trying to escape the machinations of the mad god.

I've billed it as occult/fantasy/horror. Its also bought list is now charmingly smattered with TS-themed erotica. I wonder what those readers thought when a giant invisible spider walked into the room and began chewing on a guard's face on page four. . .

How would you categorize it?

Help


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Ooooo Let me try and see if me and Julie agree --


Spoiler



YA horror? Now there's an untapped market


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The first question is what is the PRIMARY FOCUS? Is the primary focus on the heroine's relationship with the hero, with the political machionations weaving AROUND their relationship, and does it have a HEA? If yes, then it is a romance. If the primary focus is the politics, and the romance is merely weaving around the politics, then it isn't a romance.
> 
> Insofar as the world: Is it recognizable as Earth, or is it an actual other world? If you are simply using an alternate history and making up a duchy in a France in, say, the 16th century, but the setting is otherwise recognizable as 16th century France, then it isn't a fantasy. You can make up cities and whatnot without the book becoming fantasy. Modern authors make up city and even country names all the time. But if everyone is human, there are no supernatural humanoids or monsters, no magic, and you are just essentially transplanting Medieval England onto a different planet...no...it would not be a fantasy.


You always ask the tough questions! Maybe part of the problem is that I'm ambivalent about the primary focus. When I think about the story, it's about a woman trying to get what she wants in a world that doesn't afford women any kind of rights. In the course of doing that she falls in love and that becomes an important aspect of the story as it goes on. There will likely be a happy ending (I'd say 90% likely at this point).

It's not Earth. The geography is different, the cultures are different, and the races are different. I used European nobility rankings because it's familiar, but I could just as easily have made up a slew of new names for dukes, barons, etc. Everyone is human, there are no monsters (beyond those of the human variety) and no magic.


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Ooooo Let me try and see if me and Julie agree --
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Hmm. That's an interesting idea. I never thought of classifying it as YA. I thought the transgender theme ruled that out. That and one rather graphic scene. . .

I actually find the concept of YA a bit confusing. Wouldn't that imply it's geared toward minors? Are there YA horror novellas?

P.S.: The book's been tagged as 'wicca' several times and it's now vying with 'Wicca Dog' for prime 'Wicca' search relevance  Hehe. I like your cover.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Ooooo Let me try and see if me and Julie agree --
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


http://www.amazon.com/R.-L.-Stine/e/B000AQ2UR0/

Yup


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> You should promote that. The #1 Train Wreck on Amazon! Now with 50% more Appalling!


LOL!

Ok, a couple of readers have called my book a "thriller" but I call it young adult paranormal/science fiction (as in "it's not paranormal romance"). But maybe we're all wrong?? I've heard people say YA isn't a genre, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that either.

I'm up for opinions though ... here's the blurb:


When everyone reads minds, a secret is a dangerous thing to keep.

Sixteen-year-old Kira Moore is a zero, someone who can't read thoughts or be read by others. Zeros are outcasts who can't be trusted, leaving her no chance with Raf, a regular mindreader and the best friend she secretly loves. When she accidentally controls Raf's mind and nearly kills him, Kira tries to hide her frightening new ability from her family and an increasingly suspicious Raf. But lies tangle around her, and she's dragged deep into a hidden underworld of mindjackers, where having to mind control everyone she loves is just the beginning of the deadly choices before her.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> http://www.amazon.com/R.-L.-Stine/e/B000AQ2UR0/
> 
> Yup


Bah, those don't count AT ALL.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> LOL!
> 
> Ok, a couple of readers have called my book a "thriller" but I call it young adult paranormal/science fiction (as in "it's not paranormal romance"). But maybe we're all wrong?? I've heard people say YA isn't a genre, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that either.
> 
> ...


I'm confused about which part is SF and which part is paranormal...


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> For those interested or who feel they could use a nudge in the right direction, feel free to request a genre exam.  If you aren't sure how to classify your book, post info about it to this thread, and Julie will try to steer you in the right direction.


I don't know about others, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone when I say that the genre I'd like to place my books in, and the options that Amazon allows me to place them in, don't coincide. For instance, I know book one is a paranormal psychological thriller/suspense and it also has a bit of a political bent. I can't choose all of those. I think I had to pick thriller, and choose between psychological or political. Paranormal wasn't an option when paired with thriller.

The other book is psychological paranormal thriller/suspense. I was once again limited to just choosing psychological and had to leave off the paranormal part.

The sad thing is, when I first uploaded in June 2010, I was able to narrow it down more with the first book, but subsequent re-uploads, like when I changed the cover and corrected a few typos, the options narrowed and I lost my previous choices. I was majorly bummed! 

For both, I tried to compensate by adding tags, but I'm not sure how effective that is.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> I'm confused about which part is SF and which part is paranormal...


The mindreading/mindjacking part is paranormal; the futuristic setting and sciencey explanation for the source of the mindreading powers is the SF.


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Half-Orc said:


> http://www.amazon.com/R.-L.-Stine/e/B000AQ2UR0/
> 
> Yup


Good old Stine is actually children's horror. Not young adult.

I bought "Welcome To Dead House" when I was eight, the very first Goosebump, a few weeks after it was released.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2011)

SentientSurfer said:


> My book is about a boy with gender identity disorder who's been released from a juvenile facility and is now trying to reintegrate herself (as a female) into high school and her newly expanded family (she now has a conservative stepdad). The entire time, she is haunted by a Lovecraftian deity that causes her to 'shift' in and out of a parallel plane of existence, and see invisible, parasitic creatures that feed off human emotions in the 'real' world.


Lovecraftian Horror is a whole sub-genre in and of itself, assuming you are actually referring to the mythos itself. It isn't uncommon for Lovecraftian protagonists to carry a wealth of emotional and psychological baggage, so in this case the gender identity disorder is just representative of this specific protagonist's baggage. Now to be "true" Lovecraftian Horror, you need to have an overwhelming sense of dread and hopelessness compounded by characters systematically spirally further and further into madness due to their confrontations with these otherworldly entities. Lovecraftian Horror, frankly, is not known for happy endings. If the characters even live, they tend to still be emotional and psychological wrecks.

Just because your protagonist is a teenager does not automatically mean it is a YA title. YA is both a genre unto itself and a descriptor that can be added onto a genre for clarification. Which is the focus of the book: The teen's struggles with self-identity, and the whole monster thing is simply an otherworldly complication, or is the focus on the otherworldly monster and the horror it represents, and the teen's struggles with self-identity are secondary and more meant as character development?


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## SentientSurfer (Sep 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Which is the focus of the book: The teen's struggles with self-identity, and the whole monster thing is simply an otherworldly complication, or is the focus on the otherworldly monster and the horror it represents, and the teen's struggles with self-identity are secondary and more meant as character development?


Very helpful. Lovecraftian horror nails it then - though Amazon doesn't have that as a category. I hope a market still exists for that. And yes, the character suffers a descent into madness. The gender identity issue helps alienate her from society, making her easy prey for the mad god, while symbolizing she's torn between two worlds (and genders).

The mad god is even named 'Qualkhoikhom' a nod to Lovecraft and his unwieldy names for cosmic deities.

Thanks Julie.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

SentientSurfer said:


> Lovecraftian horror nails it then - though Amazon doesn't have that as a category.


Heathens.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> When everyone reads minds, a secret is a dangerous thing to keep.
> 
> Sixteen-year-old Kira Moore is a zero, someone who can't read thoughts or be read by others. Zeros are outcasts who can't be trusted, leaving her no chance with Raf, a regular mindreader and the best friend she secretly loves. When she accidentally controls Raf's mind and nearly kills him, Kira tries to hide her frightening new ability from her family and an increasingly suspicious Raf. But lies tangle around her, and she's dragged deep into a hidden underworld of mindjackers, where having to mind control everyone she loves is just the beginning of the deadly choices before her.


First things first, there is no such thing as paranormal sci-fi. Either the mind reading is treated like magic and not explained, or it is treated like science and given some plausible explanation within the structure of the story. Which one is it?

If it is an unexplained supernatural phenomena, what you have described is YA Urban fantasy (young adult in this case being used as a descriptor to indicate the audience). Depending on how you present the plot, if the mind reading is given a plausible scientific explanation (remember, it only needs to be PLAUSIBLE, not probable or possible) you may have a futuristic thriller (assuming this takes place at some near-future time on Earth).So think about your book in light of the definitions I offered on my blog. And think through the primary focus of the book and how the mind reading is explained in story.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2011)

SentientSurfer said:


> Very helpful. Lovecraftian horror nails it then - though Amazon doesn't have that as a category. I hope a market still exists for that. And yes, the character suffers a descent into madness. The gender identity issue helps alienate her from society, making her easy prey for the mad god, while symbolizing she's torn between two worlds (and genders).
> 
> The mad god is even named 'Qualkhoikhom' a nod to Lovecraft and his unwieldy names for cosmic deities.
> 
> Thanks *****.


Just make sure to note it in the description and with tags. And yes, there is a HUGE fan base for Lovecraftian horror. Google "Lovecraftian Horror" and you will find dozens of community forums dedicated to it!


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> Either the mind reading is treated like magic and not explained, or it is treated like science and given some plausible explanation within the structure of the story. Which one is it?


It's the second one.



> you may have a futuristic thriller


Maybe. But when I think of the audience this book appeals to, I end up with girls (adult and teen) who enjoy paranormal YA stories and boys (adult and teen) who enjoy SF. Some reviewers call it a "thriller" but more have been comparing it to Hunger Games and Uglies, both marketed as YA SF. Not to mention that "futuristic thriller" isn't a category on Amazon, and even YA doesn't have a "thriller" category. The closest in YA is "action & adventure" which is what I chose (in addition to SF&F).

As you say, you don't want to misidentify genre. But isn't the idea of genre to match up readers to books they will enjoy? If Hunger Games was marketed as a "futuristic thriller" it probably still would have found it's audience, but it had the benefit of traditional publishing marketing machine to back it up.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I've read futuristic thrillers and they don't sound like your blurb


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> I've read futuristic thrillers and they don't sound like your blurb


Thanks Krista! That's kinda what I was thinking too.


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

It can be tough, especially if you are writing a series that builds into something.  I ended up classifying mine as drama/romance or drama/historical romance.  The first book in the series does not have a big romance in it (although there is a lot of sex and he does care for one of the women), but ultimately the story is a romance.  Part  2 of Gastien's story shows that.  I did not want to draw from a nonromance group who would then be disapponted with book 2.  

Additionally, because it takes place in the nineteenth century, during the era when painting was undergoing huge changes and Montmartre was a hotbed of creativity, it is also a historical romance.  I do go into some history in book 2 and I use things from that era in both books.  I hesitated to use "historical romance" because they seem pretty "victorian" or "girly" for me...and this book is loved by both sexes.

I am happy to say that no one, including book bloggers, have been in disagreement with my placing it where I did.  I think it helped to provide part of part 2 at the end, so that people saw the romance that was going to happen.


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

Caddy - I have to say from seeing your cover (on another thread) that I also thought it was nicely done to appeal to both sexes. Very cool! In fact, I would be drawn to it even thought I'm not usually a historical romance kind of person. It almost has a steampunky feel to it.


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## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

Caddy said:


> It can be tough, especially if you are writing a series that builds into something. I ended up classifying mine as drama/romance or drama/historical romance. The first book in the series does not have a big romance in it (although there is a lot of sex and he does care for one of the women), but ultimately the story is a romance. Part 2 of Gastien's story shows that. I did not want to draw from a nonromance group who would then be disapponted with book 2.


Interesting. I really thought about historical romance as the genre for this one, but it's not 'historical' and doesn't try to be. I wonder if it might belong there after all. I just would hate to put it in a category where the usual readers of that genre might not like it. Maybe drama/romance though. Hmm.


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## Debra Burroughs (Feb 17, 2011)

Thank you so much, Julie, for this thread. I have been wondering for the last year or so if there was anywhere I could go that would actually describe what each genre included. Your cheat sheet is extremely helpful.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to ask your opinion about what genre my book, She Had No Choice, should fall in, because I have gotten a lot of conflicting advice. I've been told general fiction, women's fiction, drama, literary, historical, and mainstream. My story takes place between 1918 Mexico and 1960 California. Sofía starts out as a child coming across the Mexico/US border in a perilous midnight crossing. She endures a hard life, hooks up with the wrong men, has a daughter out of wedlock who has a difficult life, but grows up and comes back to rescue her mother and make things right. The story was inspired by the lives of my grandmother and my mother. If I could describe the feel of the book, I'd say it's like a Latino version of The Color Purple, gripping and heart-wrenching. It will make you cry at times, but in the end it will leave you satisfied.

What genre does that sound like to you, Julie?


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

I love the cheat sheet!  I only wish I'd seen it earlier, lol.

I did a lot of consulting with writers and readers' groups before marketing Straight to Hell as an urban fantasy (and it seems to fit very well with your analysis of UF on the cheat sheet).  However, I've gotten a few reviews that say it is too dark for UF.  That concerns me.  I'd market it as a PR, but the romance isn't the main thread of the book or the series.

Any suggestions?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Debra Burroughs said:


> Thank you so much, Julie, for this thread. I have been wondering for the last year or so if there was anywhere I could go that would actually describe what each genre included. Your cheat sheet is extremely helpful.
> 
> If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to ask your opinion about what genre my book, She Had No Choice, should fall in, because I have gotten a lot of conflicting advice. I've been told general fiction, women's fiction, drama, literary, historical, and mainstream. My story takes place between 1918 Mexico and 1960 California. Sofía starts out as a child coming across the Mexico/US border in a perilous midnight crossing. She endures a hard life, hooks up with the wrong men, has a daughter out of wedlock who has a difficult life, but grows up and comes back to rescue her mother and make things right. The story was inspired by the lives of my grandmother and my mother. If I could describe the feel of the book, I'd say it's like a Latino version of The Color Purple, gripping and heart-wrenching. It will make you cry at times, but in the end it will leave you satisfied.
> 
> What genre does that sound like to you, Julie?





Spoiler



It sounds like The Thorn Birds. It's classed as family saga, general fiction.



It's like a game. I guess and Julie answers!


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

mscott9985 said:


> However, I've gotten a few reviews that say it is too dark for UF.


Um I've read some pretty dark UF. UF can't be dark?? Since when??



Spoiler



Call it dark UF


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## Debra Burroughs (Feb 17, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, Julie did say in the title of the thread that she is accepting new patients.


----------



## Coral Moore (Nov 29, 2009)

mscott9985 said:


> I love the cheat sheet! I only wish I'd seen it earlier, lol.
> 
> I did a lot of consulting with writers and readers' groups before marketing Straight to Hell as an urban fantasy (and it seems to fit very well with your analysis of UF on the cheat sheet). However, I've gotten a few reviews that say it is too dark for UF. That concerns me. I'd market it as a PR, but the romance isn't the main thread of the book or the series.
> 
> Any suggestions?


I think you're probably okay in UF. It has a wide range. There are plenty of very dark themes in the genre.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> It's the second one.
> Maybe. But when I think of the audience this book appeals to, I end up with girls (adult and teen) who enjoy paranormal YA stories and boys (adult and teen) who enjoy SF. Some reviewers call it a "thriller" but more have been comparing it to Hunger Games and Uglies, both marketed as YA SF. Not to mention that "futuristic thriller" isn't a category on Amazon, and even YA doesn't have a "thriller" category. The closest in YA is "action & adventure" which is what I chose (in addition to SF&F)


I said "maybe" because I have not read your book. I cannot answer the question for you. You, and you alone, have to decide "what is the focus of the book?" Is the focus on the coming of age story set against a backdrop of a futuristic society that has mindreading? Then it is a YA. But you have to be the one to answer the question. And you have to do that WITHOUT thinking about a hundred and fifty things that have nothing to do with your book. I don't care what an Amazon reviewer might say. I don't care what Hunger Games got listed under. I don't care what color socks you where on Thursdays (OK, I might if they were really cool socks and I wanted to get a pair ). But the point is that anything that does not answer the question "What is the focus of the book?" should not be in your mind.

You can always enhance the listing with the proper use of tags and by fleshing out the book blurb. Find your primary category, and then let the book description and tags do the rest of the work for you.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

Debra Burroughs said:


> Thank you so much, *****, for this thread. I have been wondering for the last year or so if there was anywhere I could go that would actually describe what each genre included. Your cheat sheet is extremely helpful.
> 
> If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to ask your opinion about what genre my book, She Had No Choice, should fall in, because I have gotten a lot of conflicting advice. I've been told general fiction, women's fiction, drama, literary, historical, and mainstream. My story takes place between 1918 Mexico and 1960 California. Sofía starts out as a child coming across the Mexico/US border in a perilous midnight crossing. She endures a hard life, hooks up with the wrong men, has a daughter out of wedlock who has a difficult life, but grows up and comes back to rescue her mother and make things right. The story was inspired by the lives of my grandmother and my mother. If I could describe the feel of the book, I'd say it's like a Latino version of The Color Purple, gripping and heart-wrenching. It will make you cry at times, but in the end it will leave you satisfied.
> 
> What genre does that sound like to you, *****?


General fiction, family saga sub genre. That sub genre is actually hugely popular and often overlooked by self-publishers. It is also a genre which supports higher price books because the readership tends to be older and less into the "99 cent app" mindset.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You win a cookie for having the right answer!


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*pompoms*


----------



## Debra Burroughs (Feb 17, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> General fiction, family saga sub genre. That sub genre is actually hugely popular and often overlooked by self-publishers. It is also a genre which supports higher price books because the readership tends to be older and less into the "99 cent app" mindset.


Thank you, Julie! That helps.


----------



## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> You can always enhance the listing with the proper use of tags and by fleshing out the book blurb. Find your primary category, and then let the book description and tags do the rest of the work for you.


Aye, aye, Captain!  And now I want one of those Darkside Cookies. #yum


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## David McAfee (Apr 15, 2010)

Out of curiosity, how would you classify 33 A.D.? I only ask because I know you've read it.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Christian horror


----------



## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Um I've read some pretty dark UF. UF can't be dark?? Since when??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I think it might be the chick lit cover and blurb that threw the reviewers. The narrative voice is very upbeat and humorous, but there are some dark situations towards the end. IDK...most people didn't seem overly bothered. I guess you can't please everyone, lol.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

mscott9985 said:


> Well, I think it might be the chick lit cover and blurb that threw the reviewers. The narrative voice is very upbeat and humorous, but there are some dark situations towards the end. IDK...most people didn't seem overly bothered. I guess you can't please everyone, lol.


To be fair, I would expect a fluffy, cutesy-poo novel with that cover. Then again, I'm all about the Cover of Anger









(shameless linkage to the Cover of Anger because I don't know how to put the Cover of Anger directly into this thread)

_<<'Sokay, Krista, I fixed it for you.  Just right-click the image you want, copy the url, and in the post, click on the img icon, third from the left above the smilies, and then paste the url between the img tags. --Betsy>>_


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## Susan Kaye Quinn (Aug 8, 2011)

> Cover of Anger


LOL! Ok, that's awesome.


----------



## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks for the compliment, Susan.  I am glad that you love my cover.


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Susan Kaye Quinn said:


> LOL! Ok, that's awesome.


I said to the cover artist: I want angry. Not "Edward brooded at me" angry but post-apocalyptic angry. I got a title shot through with bullet holes.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

David McAfee said:


> Out of curiosity, how would you classify 33 A.D.? I only ask because I know you've read it.


Uber Awesomeness. 

Horror, your vampires scared the crap out of me (as vampires as suppose to do!)


----------



## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy thanks! I had no idea how to do it but I wanted to include the Cover of Anger


----------



## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Hi Julie, I came here from on suggestion from Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson in another thread.

My shorts not selling so I though, hey, maybe it's a genre problem.

The short is, in short, about a boy who discovers psychic abilities. 

Currently, it's listed under Short Stories and Thrillers.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Title : The Demon's Promise

Blurb: 21-year-old Ena seeks romance and adventure in her life. A trip to the ancient Hindu-Buddhist city of Taxila, is meant to be a getaway, but a silly prank leads to Ena being abducted by a demon.

Transported to the ancient Mauryan empire of India, circa 250 B.C., Ena finds herself in the midst of a deadly political game between the Indian and Greek empires.

Showing strength in the face of overwhelming adversity, Ena finds herself battling temptation, the demon's tool.

A 6,821 word short story.

What do you say Dr.?


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

RikNieu said:


> Hi *****, I came here from on suggestion from Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson in another thread.
> 
> My shorts not selling so I though, hey, maybe it's a genre problem.
> 
> ...


It is definitely NOT a thriller based on the product description. As I explained in the genre article, the primary focus of the thriller is to generate tension and excitement in the readers, putting them on the edge of their seats as the plot careens towards its climax. What you have sounds much more like an urban fantasy. Considering the age of the protagonist and the nature of the book description, it may be more of a paranormal YA if young adults are the target market. But there is no indication that this qualifies as a thriller at all.


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## Hudson Owen (May 18, 2012)

Is there such a category as literary romance?  Priscilla & Morris instead of Roxanne & Cliff?  In other words, is Romance more of a sensibility than a hot and enduring love--on a higher cognitive plane, as it were--that runs the length of the novel?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

rubyscribe said:


> Title : The Demon's Promise
> 
> Blurb: 21-year-old Ena seeks romance and adventure in her life. A trip to the ancient Hindu-Buddhist city of Taxila, is meant to be a getaway, but a silly prank leads to Ena being abducted by a demon.
> 
> ...


Historical fantasy or time travel. I think there is even a category for that very thing...


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

rubyscribe said:


> What do you say Dr.?


Based solely on what you presented here, I say a relatively straightforward fantasy. Ena may begin the story in the "real" world, but she is transported to a self-contained fantasy setting. it isn't alternative history or a historical because you have demons and magic running around. You are using a historical setting as your framework, but presenting it in a distinctly fantastical way.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Based solely on what you presented here, I say a relatively straightforward fantasy. Ena may begin the story in the "real" world, but she is transported to a self-contained fantasy setting. it isn't alternative history or a historical because you have demons and magic running around. You are using a historical setting as your framework, but presenting it in a distinctly fantastical way.


Fantasy, yes but magic, no! It's the Buddhist demon, Mara, which isn't a vampirish demon. history is accurate, right down to names and places.

Is it Time Travel Fantasy as Krista says? should I ignore the demon part? or is there such a genre?


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

First, thank you for the cheat sheet on the post linked in your first message.  Based on that, I think one of my WIPs might be cyberpunk, except I wouldn't call it a SciFi?

The story, set in 2020, explores how the world might be under certain circumstances.  It takes many existing current day real-world functions and attitudes to a futuristic 'extreme'.  All elements of the story are technically plausible with the exception of a genetically modified creature who plays a minor role.  The MC is thrust into leadership while the main protag is trying to prevent this leadership. In the 'big picture' it is intended as a humorous commentary on an existing current day attitude.

There are a lot of advanced technical capabilities (compared to today) that enable the story, but they are not the focus of the story and modern technologies could certainly can achieve the predicted abilities by 2020 (so no flying cars or teletransportation).  The main character drives an F250 truck because it avoids ubiqitous movement tracking.

I had been classifying it as dystopian future type book, but I don't see that listed on the standard genre options.

Any help would be appreciated.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

rubyscribe said:


> Fantasy, yes but magic, no! It's the Buddhist demon, Mara, which isn't a vampirish demon. history is accurate, right down to names and places.
> 
> Is it Time Travel Fantasy as Krista says? should I ignore the demon part? or is there such a genre?


Unless you have evidence that Mara is a real person, it isn't "historical." That's like saying "Clash of the Titans" is historical because people once believed in Zeus and Hera. You are dealing with a mythological being, not a historical figure. And how did she go back in time if no magic was involved? I'm assuming the demon did something, which would be magic. Unless she used a phone booth.  But the existence of a supernatural entity as the instrument of time travel defaults to fantasy.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unless you have evidence that Mara is a real person, it isn't "historical." That's like saying "Clash of the Titans" is historical because people once believed in Zeus and Hera. You are dealing with a mythological being, not a historical figure. And how did she go back in time if no magic was involved? I'm assuming the demon did something, which would be magic. Unless she used a phone booth.  But the existence of a supernatural entity as the instrument of time travel defaults to fantasy.


Julie and I might start a "conversation" about the definition of historical fantasy


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Enkel said:


> I had been classifying it as dystopian future type book, but I don't see that listed on the standard genre options.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.


That's pretty much what cyberpunk is. I'm not sure why you are reluctant to embrace the sci-fi genre. There are two types of sci-fi, "hard" and "soft," which are differentiated by how much attention to detail is placed on the science behind the technology. A lot of the sci-fi sub-genres tend toward the "soft" sci fi, which is what it sounds like you are describing. Not all sci-fi requires aliens, robots, and space travel!


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> ***** and I might start a "conversation" about the definition of historical fantasy


Methinks in this case you are using "historical" as a descriptor of the fantasy genre, not as a genre itself. "Historical" is both a genre itself and a descriptor. Like saying "paranormal thriller", yes, it has supernatural elements, but it is still a thriller and follows the norms of the thriller genre. Only a supernatural element has been added.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Mine's about this skank who likes stirrups, if you know what I mean, and she takes her pet dragon to Alpha Centauri for the rodeo where Abraham Lincoln, the lover who designed her steam ship then dumped her, is wrestling a dwarf for the dylithium chrystals. There's a HEA.


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> That's pretty much what cyberpunk is. I'm not sure why you are reluctant to embrace the sci-fi genre. There are two types of sci-fi, "hard" and "soft," which are differentiated by how much attention to detail is placed on the science behind the technology. A lot of the sci-fi sub-genres tend toward the "soft" sci fi, which is what it sounds like you are describing. Not all sci-fi requires aliens, robots, and space travel!


Because SciFi is _special stuff_ written by masters at smartness. Plus, your blog linked in post #1 of this thread is the first time I'd ever read an explaination of what "cyberpunk" is.

Now, can you explain the classification of "high" (as in High Fantasy)? I don't think you had that on your blog.

Oh, and did I mention to all other readers, you should go back to post #1 and read the linked blog.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Methinks in this case you are using "historical" as a descriptor of the fantasy genre, not as a genre itself. "Historical" is both a genre itself and a descriptor. Like saying "paranormal thriller", yes, it has supernatural elements, but it is still a thriller and follows the norms of the thriller genre. Only a supernatural element has been added.


Yup.

Historical fantasy is a specific type of fantasy.

I don't think there is fantasy history, though.


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Mine's about this skank who likes stirrups, if you know what I mean, and she takes her pet dragon to Alpha Centauri for the rodeo where Abraham Lincoln, the lover who designed her steam ship then dumped her, is wrestling a dwarf for the dylithium chrystals. There's a HEA.


Can I be your beta reader?


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

Enkel said:


> Now, can you explain the classification of "high" (as in High Fantasy)? I don't think you had that on your blog.


High fantasy is another name for epic fantasy. 



> Fantasy Sub-genres:
> 
> Epic Fantasy: A Fantasy novel that takes place exclusively in a parallel or invented world. Plots normally involve world-impacting events and grand struggles against supernatural, evil forces.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Unless you have evidence that Mara is a real person, it isn't "historical." That's like saying "Clash of the Titans" is historical because people once believed in Zeus and Hera. You are dealing with a mythological being, not a historical figure. And how did she go back in time if no magic was involved? I'm assuming the demon did something, which would be magic. Unless she used a phone booth.  But the existence of a supernatural entity as the instrument of time travel defaults to fantasy.


Mara is real for Buddhists even today, but that's besides the point. I agree it's fantasy but it is also historical. The "real" characters and settings are the Hindu Emperor Asoka (the greatest Indian emperor in history) and the Greek Satrap Diodotus. The story is about Ena's encounter with both, which comes about through Mara.

Complicated isn't it?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

high fantasy is sometimes called "traditional" fantasy as well.


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> High fantasy is another name for epic fantasy.


Thank you. And thank you so much for the input. *does little happy dance because 'cyberpunk' sounds cool*


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

I remember a Terry Brooks novel that had druids in it who built machines, essentially steampunk machines, but it had magic in it as well. Wonder which side of the fence that one landed on.


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The point is that mysteries tend to focus on HOW the crime is solved, whereas a thriller focuses on the sense of urgency to solve the crime in the first place. The process of how the crime is solved is important to the story. The mystery may indeed include high impact tension, but the book was not focused around building up to that point in the first place. Generally, in a mystery the reader is reading to see if they can figure out "whodunit" before the book ends. With a thriller, you keep reading in anticipation of what happens next.


Another thing to keep in mind when comparing mysteries and thrillers is that, in a mystery, the bad guy's identity is usually a secret until the end, when the sleuth reveals whodunit - the satisfaction is intellectual, and comes from the solving of the puzzle (whodunit and why) - as opposed to a thriller, where the satisfaction is more visceral/emotional, and comes from not knowing if the protagonist will prevail, or even survive. A thriller doesn't even have to be a mystery to the audience at all, because often the audience will already know who the bad guy is and what he's up to, long before the protagonist even has a clue.


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

rubyscribe said:


> Mara is real for Buddhists even today, but that's besides the point. I agree it's fantasy but it is also historical. The "real" characters and settings are the Hindu Emperor Asoka (the greatest Indian emperor in history) and the Greek Satrap Diodotus. The story is about Ena's encounter with both, which comes about through Mara.
> 
> Complicated isn't it?


I'm wondering if your book shouldn't be classified as some sort of religious (sorry, can't think of better term) book? Is there a category for Buddhism? If I were to take the same premis as a Christian but with the girl being taken back to battle w/Satan. I can understand the resistance to the marketing category of "Fantasy", but I wouldn't call it historical no matter what my beliefs are. I *think* it would end up as Christian Fantasy? (If there is such a thing?)


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

This thread is so great, thank you for creating it. 
I just checked the genre cheat sheet, and I found a zombie under the Survival Horror. But what the romance is the main focus of the story where the zombies are important part of the (romantic) plot (I never thought I would end up writing that -- I hope that the world will forgive me) and which is happening in the apocalyptic setting (which only applies to one continent, not the world). Does this still count as survival horror?


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## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It is definitely NOT a thriller based on the product description. As I explained in the genre article, the primary focus of the thriller is to generate tension and excitement in the readers, putting them on the edge of their seats as the plot careens towards its climax. What you have sounds much more like an urban fantasy. Considering the age of the protagonist and the nature of the book description, it may be more of a paranormal YA if young adults are the target market. But there is no indication that this qualifies as a thriller at all.


Thanks Julie! Yeah, not sure why I chose thriller as an option. 
Cheers!


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Chad Winters said:


> So urban fantasy occurs in a modern setting with mixed paranormal/normal. Does it have to occur in an urban environment? Can the same basic thing happen in a small town? I've always wondered. If Dresden lived in small town Ohio would it still be urban fantasy?


My friend calls this rural fantasy, although I think technically it would still fall under the umbrella of UF, simply as a way of differentiating it from alternative world fantasy.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Enkel said:


> I'm wondering if your book shouldn't be classified as some sort of religious (sorry, can't think of better term) book? Is there a category for Buddhism? If I were to take the same premis as a Christian but with the girl being taken back to battle w/Satan. I can understand the resistance to the marketing category of "Fantasy", but I wouldn't call it historical no matter what my beliefs are. I *think* it would end up as Christian Fantasy? (If there is such a thing?)


The heroine is not a Buddhist, but is it religious fiction? hmm.... not too sure here and then again that genre has no takers.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

rubyscribe said:


> The heroine is not a Buddhist, but is it religious fiction? hmm.... not too sure here and then again that genre has no takers.


Based off the discussions that have been going on about your book, I'm inclined to believe that your book is a fantasy. Your setting isn't what makes it fantasy, since your story doesn't have to take place in an invented world to be classified as such. It's not horror because the point of horror is to use terror to frighten your readers. There is a chance it could be a paranormal tale, but that would make it fall under the larger umbrella of fantasy.

Maybe this definition of fantasy from Wikipedia will help:

*Traits of fantasy

The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme.[2] Within such a structure, any location of the fantastical element is possible: it may be hidden in, or leak into the apparently real world setting, it may draw the characters into a world with such elements, or it may occur entirely in a fantasy world setting, where such elements are part of the world.[3] Essentially, fantasy follows rules of its own making, allowing magic and other fantastic devices to be used and still be internally cohesive.[4]*

Much of what you describe in your book is contained in the traits list above. So the impression I get is that it's a fantasy.


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## rubyscribe (Jun 2, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> Based off the discussions that have been going on about your book, I'm inclined to believe that your book is a fantasy. Your setting isn't what makes it fantasy, since your story doesn't have to take place in an invented world. It's not horror because the point of horror is to use terror to frighten your readers.
> 
> Maybe this definition of fantasy from Wikipedia will help:
> 
> ...


Thankyou for the quote, I agreed with the Genre Dr. here that it is fantasy. Betsy made me realize earlier that my book is not horror/paranormal. I think it is a historical fantasy, which Julie disagreed with.


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

rubyscribe said:


> The heroine is not a Buddhist, but is it religious fiction? hmm.... not too sure here and then again that genre has no takers.


The piece I have in editing right now is for a genre that doesn't sell well. Unfortunately, that is where it fits. If I were to categorize it under erotica or romance (because they sell better), there'd be a lot of pretty angry folk out there. (Well... acutally the cover would just look wierd, so there probably wouldn't be a lot of sales... but IF there were sales, they'd be pretty unhappy about the content)


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

elalond said:


> Does this still count as survival horror?


We call that an abomination to nature!     You've made me twitch with this. (and people who know my...um...discomfort with zombies understand why)

You cannot simultaneously have a romance and a survival horror. *Romances require a HEA.* Survival horror is pretty much, everyone dies eventually it is just a matter of how and when.   You can have a horror story where characters develop a romance with each other, but unless the hero and heroine live happily ever after in their little zombie universe, _it is not a romance. _ You can use the relationship to build the sense of dread that is coming because you know someone is going to die, but the existence of love between characters doesn't make it a romance.

For some reason, romance is the genre everyone has the hardest time wrapping their heads around. People think just because characters have a relationship that means the book is romance.


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

My take on the difference between mysteries and thrillers (a general rule, not hard and fast), is that mysteries are mainly concerned with the past and thrillers are mainly concerned with the future. What do I mean by that? Generally, mysteries are about trying to solve a crime that has already happened; "justice" or "closure" or something similar is the main goal of the protagonist in pursuing the matter. Thrillers are more often about trying to _prevent_ something from happening; the main goal of the protagonist is to stop something terrible from happening, either on a small or large scale.


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> We call that an abomination to nature!     You've made me twitch with this. (and people who know my...um...discomfort with zombies understand why)
> 
> You cannot simultaneously have a romance and a survival horror. *Romances require a HEA.* Survival horror is pretty much, everyone dies eventually it is just a matter of how and when.   You can have a horror story where characters develop a romance with each other, but unless the hero and heroine live happily ever after in their little zombie universe, _it is not a romance. _ You can use the relationship to build the sense of dread that is coming because you know someone is going to die, but the existence of love between characters doesn't make it a romance.
> 
> For some reason, romance is the genre everyone has the hardest time wrapping their heads around. People think just because characters have a relationship that means the book is romance.


But isn't the romance without a HEA still romance? (Or does it become a tragedy?) And they do live happily ever after in their little zombie universe, sort of. My main problem with this story is that it isn't something that your average zombie/gore/action lover would like without prior knowledge that that the story is basing heavily on the relationship between the main characters, and it's also not something that a average HEA romance lover would like without prior warning about gore and absence of the true HEA. So what is the best identifier of a story like that? Or should I just mark it as horror and let the blurb serve as warning?

Hope that the twitch isn't that bad? And that it won't worsened.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

elalond said:


> But isn't the romance without a HEA still romance?


No.

It's a love story.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2012)

cdstephens said:


> Where would you put this?


Who is the target market? The way the blurb is written, I would either just say "general fiction" or "literary fiction" (depending on how closely you are trying to emulate the source material). But you have a little girl on the cover, and you've got it classified under "children's books." Without reading the book, I don't know who the target audience is. The blurb is written "over the head" of the typical young reader, but the cover appears too "YA" for adult readers. You are sending two conflicting messages.

There is a fine line between YA and Coming of Age. A YA story addresses coming of age issues in a way that is accessible to young readers. Whereas the more traditional "coming of age" tale is normally told from an adult sensibility with a somewhat nostalgic feel. You need to draw a line in the sand and determine WHO the story is for. If your target market is YA, and you are telling the story from a place accessible to young readers, then I would suggest revising the blurb to be less "high brow" so to speak. If the target is adults, and you are telling the story from a nostalgic adult view, then I'd get a new cover and move it to "general fiction" or "literary fiction".


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

*Groans


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> No.
> 
> It's a love story.


And that's why Romeo and Julia is a love story not a romance, huh.

Survival horror love story, that doesn't sound bad.


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## Victorine (Apr 23, 2010)

Just wanted to say I love this thread. It's way cool.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

elalond said:


> And that's why Romeo and Julia is a love story not a romance, huh.


Exactly.



> Survival horror love story, that doesn't sound bad.


It actually does.


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

elalond said:


> Survival horror love story, that doesn't sound bad.





Krista D. Ball said:


> It actually does.


+1


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It actually does.


Pfffff. I think it sounds awesome.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)




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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

Victorine said:


> Just wanted to say I love this thread. It's way cool.


I totally agree. This is so nice of Julie. This thread is facinating.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I don't think there is fantasy history, though.


I don't see why not, though I think what actually counts depends on how you define the genre. If you call it something looking back at and attempting to (re)interpret a historical period in a fantasy setting, wouldn't some of Tolkien's stuff qualify? Some RPG sourcebooks would probably qualify, as well, I imagine.

Also - and feel free to flame me for suggesting this - there's The Mabinogion.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

George Berger said:


> I don't see why not, though I think what actually counts depends on how you define the genre. If you call it something looking back at and attempting to (re)interpret a historical period in a fantasy setting, wouldn't some of Tolkien's stuff qualify? Some RPG sourcebooks would probably qualify, as well, I imagine.
> 
> Also - and feel free to flame me for suggesting this - there's The Mabinogion.


Tolkien's is not historical fantasy or fantastical history because it is completely make believe. 

History generally means the actual period of time and the setting. So a fantasy set in Elizabethan times with full historical setting, with magic users, could be historical fantasy (though, you need people to pull off the history or else it resembles a lot of Regency & Highland romances out there, where the history is...questionable).


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Tolkien's is not historical fantasy or fantastical history because it is completely make believe.
> 
> History generally means the actual period of time and the setting. So a fantasy set in Elizabethan times with full historical setting, with magic users, could be historical fantasy (though, you need people to pull off the history or else it resembles a lot of Regency & Highland romances out there, where the history is...questionable).


Like I said, it depends on your definition of "fantasy history".  But, well, what about The Mabinogion, then? (See, e.g., Lludd and Llefelys for one of the stories therein.) It professes to be a history of our world, yet contains rather distinctly fantasy elements. Or how about Le Mort du Arthur, for the same reasons?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd argue that Le Mort du Arthur is, though for many different reasons.

I just know there is a specific requirement on *me* when I write historical fantasy. Since it's been imposed on me by my loyal horde of sixteen readers, I force everyone near me to follow the same definition


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

I've removed that monstrous post to my blog. Sorry to have rambled on so much.

http://johnblackport.wordpress.com/


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

"20 new replies have been posted" . . .

Good Lord. _There's_ something you don't see every day.

Can't wait to go back and see what I missed . . .


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

George Berger said:


> Like I said, it depends on your definition of "fantasy history".  But, well, what about The Mabinogion, then? (See, e.g., Lludd and Llefelys for one of the stories therein.) It professes to be a history of our world, yet contains rather distinctly fantasy elements. Or how about Le Mort du Arthur, for the same reasons?


I think the correct term to describe books like Le Morte d'Arthur and The Mabinogion are Legendariums. They profess to be history, but are full of fantastical elements. I think Julie was on the money when she said it's best to compare such books with Greek Mythology. They may have been considered true during the time of the people who wrote them, but they're certainly fantasy now. Legendariums, mythology, fantasy, take your pick...


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

John Blackport said:


> The series I am writing has a genre consideration that has only recently occurred to me. I've become aware of it a little at a time, largely thanks to some astute comments by some reviewers.
> 
> The hero is a magical dragoon who fulfills the role of Napoleonic-era light cavalry, casting spells in battle off the back of a mount he often conjures himself. So far, that looks like "fantasy".
> 
> Many Amazon taggers have pegged it as "historical fantasy", even though it's not set in the real world. Some have even made "revolutionary war" a popular tag for book #2.


Just a suggestion here, but could this be Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Alternate History?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> I think the correct term to describe books like Le Morte d'Arthur and The Mabinogion are Legendariums. They profess to be history, but are full of fantastical elements. I think Julie was on the money when she said it's best to compare such books with Greek Mythology. *They may have been considered true during the time of the people who wrote them*, but they're certainly fantasy now. Legendariums, mythology, fantasy, take your pick...


...and THAT is why I can argue it has historical footing.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

ShayneHellerman said:


> Just a suggestion here, but could this be Science Fiction & Fantasy > Fantasy > Alternate History?


Thank you Shayne, but I don't think so . . . I should have mentioned the story does not even take place on Earth. It's set in an imaginary world, so I don't think there's anything "historical" about it, alternate or otherwise.

Good try though!


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Those tags are helpful, though, as they help connect people to the world you created. (I added some of those myself  ) It's more of "oh, I like Revolutionary Wars stuff...huh, this might be like it, let's check it out). It's not that obvious, I know, but sometimes small cues are enough to topple people over the edge


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

John Blackport said:


> Thank you Shayne, but I don't think so . . . I should have mentioned the story does not even take place on Earth. It's set in an imaginary world, so I don't think there's anything "historical" about it, alternate or otherwise.
> 
> Good try though!


Mom always taught me to try my best. 

I find myself wondering if maybe this is a case of 'not quite but close enough'. I only have what you've said to judge by, of course, but it seems if people are tagging it 'revolutionary war' and, I think you said 'historical' as well, that readers of those kinds of books would not be averse to finding your book on their genre shelf, so to speak. If it's selling well already it probably wouldn't be worth it to try, but if you were trying to find the series a better home to increase sales, maybe it could help. Just a thought. Either way, good luck.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

I suppose I'm stuck with "historical fantasy" whether I like it or not. But all in all, that's not a bad place to be really. 

Any opinions about what the defining difference might be, between "military sci-fi" or "military fantasy" --- and a "war story" that happens to use a sci-fi or fantasy setting? Or even whether such a distinction is worth making?


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

John Blackport said:


> I suppose I'm stuck with "historical fantasy" whether I like it or not. But all in all, that's not a bad place to be really.
> 
> Any opinions about what the defining difference might be, between "military sci-fi" or "military fantasy" --- and a "war story" that happens to use a sci-fi or fantasy setting? Or even whether such a distinction is worth making?


Generally speaking, I would think that if the story has weapons that derive from magic it would be military fantasy, and if it's got weapons that derive from science it would be military sci-fi. Maybe I'm over-simplifying, though...


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Road to Hell is considered either military SF or military SF thriller (I think it's more just military SF, but I suppose it as the SF thriller feel to it). It's not a "war story" though, the way that Band of Brothers is definitely a WW2 story. My novel takes place during a war, but the actions taken and the issues going on aren't actually directly in contact with the war. So it's really not a war story.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I think Shane and I read the question different ways, but I like both of our answers! Ha!


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## Greer (Sep 24, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I think Shane and I read the question different ways, but I like both of our answers! Ha!


Doh! I jumped the gun - didn't read the whole question.

I like both our answers, too. 

Now that I have read the entire question, I would add that I think maybe military sci-fi or fantasy would be more focused on tactics and battles and, necessarily, on the soldiers fighting them. Whereas a war story that happens in a sci-fi or fantasy setting wouldn't necessarily have to be about soldiers, it could be about the other people who were caught up in the war, like civilians resistance or spies, etc.


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

elalond said:


> And that's why Romeo and Julia is a love story not a romance, huh.


weird. I always thought it was a tragedy. 



elalond said:


> So what is the best identifier of a story like that? Or should I just mark it as horror and let the blurb serve as warning?


I would look at "Pride & Prejudice & Zombies" and follow their lead.


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## Cheryl M. (Jan 11, 2011)

Don't mind me. Just subscribing to this overly awesome thread. Seriously, it might just be too much awesome for me but I'm gonna give it a go anyway.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> weird. I always thought it was a tragedy.


It is both. It's a love story, but it's also a tragedy. Just like every Nickolas Sparks book out there


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## NathanWrann (May 5, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> It is both. It's a love story, but it's also a tragedy. Just like every Nickolas Sparks book out there


My wife was just talking about him today. She had heard that he started incorporating the HEA into his books. Finally gave in to the pressure?


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## elalond (May 11, 2011)

NathanWrann said:


> I would look at "Pride & Prejudice & Zombies" and follow their lead.


That's a good advice, thank you. Unfortunately the "Pride & Prejudice & Zombies" is (foremost) a parody, or so I gathered from the list of genres attached to the book:
_ Books > Humor & Entertainment > Humor
Books > Literature & Fiction > British > Humor & Satire
Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror
Books > Literature & Fiction > Humor
Books > Literature & Fiction > Women's Fiction > Sisters
Books > Romance > Regency
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Fiction > Horror
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Humor > Parodies
Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Romance > Historical Romance_

I will browse through books with zombie and romance tags; I hope I'll find something useful there.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Hi Julie,

I think your genre clinic/table is strong on the fantasy/paranormal/thriller/romance/historical side, but I thought your description of "literary fiction" was a bit reductive. I think that I write, or aim to write, above all to express myself and tell a story: whether it goes by the name of a mainstream novel, mainstream fiction, in which form, content, language, style are all important, a literary novel, above all, grapples with the meaning (or meaninglessness) of life, with the big questions of morality, love, betrayal, and the social questions of the time. It it is a verbal reflection and photographic presentation of contemporary reality; it is a social history told through the lives of characters, their dreams, their challenges, their loves, and so on. Virginia Woolf, Charles Dickens, Joseph Heller, Vladimir Nabokov, Salman Rushdie . . . 

Added: In this "literary novel", there is a fantasy editor who the adult narrator makes love to even as he discusses the book. (Metafiction? Fantasy?). There are softcore erotic scenes making up perhaps 3% of the book's 125,000 words. ("Erotic realism"?).  There are strong elements of bildungsroman (novel of education) and picaresque. Also: antinovel?  Black humor? Comic fiction? Satire? The book has been compared to "Catcher in the Rye",  "A Confederacy of Dunces," "Portnoy's Complaint," and "David Copperfield."--all of which are unique novels, not like each other at all.

And my ex-British agent also said this: "It is what it is."

Anyway, here's a description (from my blurb), of my novel The Revised Kama Sutra. Feel free to "categorize" it. Despite my attempting to play doctor, above, I am no doctor; I'm not even a trainee nurse. I would bet that many of my 12 other books on Amazon suffer from miscategorization, both by me, and by Amazon (which sometimes ignores your categories and imposes its own). Maybe because I hate being limited by categories and genres. 

Vijay Prabhu grows up Catholic in an Indian town, determined not just to escape terrorist nuns, but to become the first Indian Pope.  When his first erection upsets Plan A, he resorts to Plan B: to lose his religion and his cherry at all costs, to enlist the help of Jackie Kennedy, and to become a millionaire and make love to a hundred women by age 30.

Who or what planted this mad ambition in him, and what happens next?

"Very funny"--Kurt Vonnegut

More:
This comic literary novel, described as "an Indian Catcher in the Rye," was first published to great acclaim by Viking Penguin India, followed by Fourth Estate, UK, Deuticke Verlag, Vienna, and publishers in a total of ten countries in seven languages.

Readers and critics have praised the descriptions of Vijay's childhood in nun-run and Jesuit-run boarding schools, where Vijay is introduced to the Five Pillars of Oppression--bells, canes, penis shame, girl shame, and sports.

Enriched by its plain-speaking and comic descriptions of puberty and sexual repression, the novel is one of a handful of books recommended by The Lonely Planet Guide to South India, which praised it for its depiction of small town life in South India.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

The thing with "literary" is that it really is less a genre than it is a way of writing. The general difference between what we would call "general fiction" and "literary fiction" is one of form. And it is important not to confuse what we might call "canon" with the literary genre. Great books that stand the test of time are often called "literary" but often the authors didn't set out to write a "literary" novel. Dickens wrote satires and coming-of-age novels, for example. But those works ascended so to speak to the level of what would be considered canon about English Literature. "Literary" is often used to refer to what are considered canonical works, but that isn't the actual definition of the genre itself. One of the points I tried to get across is that not everything IS genre fiction. The great majority of published works are simply "fiction" and don't fall into a genre per se.


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## Eric the Scott (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's one. The WIP I am dealing with involves a man who has set out to recover and repatriate the remains of his father who is listed as missing-in-action during the vietnam war. 

The plot involves the son's search, however, I am telling two stories at the same time, the first being the son's search and the father's story for what happened to him. 

I am thinking historical fiction. Although becuase half of the story is told in the here and now I am not sure this is appropriate. Your thoughts?


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Cheryl M. said:


> Don't mind me. Just subscribing to this overly awesome thread. Seriously, it might just be too much awesome for me but I'm gonna give it a go anyway.


This is one of the best threads this forum has and it's been inactive for six months. Hence, a little nudging was needed to get it back in action.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

Eric the Scott said:


> Here's one. The WIP I am dealing with involves a man who has set out to recover and repatriate the remains of his father who is listed as missing-in-action during the vietnam war.
> 
> The plot involves the son's search, however, I am telling two stories at the same time, the first being the son's search and the father's story for what happened to him.
> 
> I am thinking historical fiction. Although becuase half of the story is told in the here and now I am not sure this is appropriate. Your thoughts?


Again, not everything is in a genre. The vast majority of books are actually not genre books. The key question is this: insofar as the father's story, is the central plot _about_ the Vietnam war told from his perspective, or is the war merely a literary device being used as a backdrop for the story? That may sound like splicing hairs. But it is the fundamental difference between a "historical fiction" and a story that just happens to be set in a specific period. I have a bunch of stories I've published over the years, for example, set in the 1920's. But the time period is merely a literary device and not the central focus of the story. If I tried to sell those stories as historical fiction, I'd have people wanting to rip my head off because while they fit the mood of the period they aren't entrenched in the period. (If that differentiation makes sense)


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## Eric the Scott (Feb 1, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> (If that differentiation makes sense)


 It does make sense, thanks. It's not a war story, so that does eliminate the historcial fiction question. I appreciate it!


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## Doctor Barbara (Aug 17, 2010)

Nice explanation for Eric, Julie!

"The great majority of published works are simply "fiction" and don't fall into a genre per se."  Since there are so many 'fiction' books and their subject matter is immense, I think it hurts to have a book in that category (at least for budding Indie authors) because it seems like readers narrow their search into more specific genres. It would be nice to have more genres!


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## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson said:


> This is one of the best threads this forum has and it's been inactive for six months. Hence, a little nudging was needed to get it back in action.


Absolutely one of the best. Thanks for the nudging, thanks to Julie for the enlightenment.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Doctor Barbara said:


> "The great majority of published works are simply "fiction" and don't fall into a genre per se." Since there are so many 'fiction' books and their subject matter is immense, I think it hurts to have a book in that category (at least for budding Indie authors) because it seems like readers narrow their search into more specific genres.


Don't confuse categories with topical preferences. If you write a book about a Clydesdale, or WWII, or a Cuban-American cabana boy, a sizable percentage of your audience might well be people looking for fiction about horses, war, or, y'know, cabana boys, and they're going to find your book by searching for that kind of thing, not by browsing the imaginary _Fiction -> Literary -> Books About Animals -> Books About Real, Non-Extinct Animals -> Non-Sexual Books About Animals -> Mammals -> Horses -> Clydesdales_ category.

_--George, I wonder how many books have been written about people falling in lust with the dodo? Hmm..._


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## Kevis Hendrickson (Feb 28, 2009)

Phyllis Lily Jules said:


> Absolutely one of the best. Thanks for the nudging, thanks to Julie for the enlightenment.


Yep. Dr. Julie rocks.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Eric the Scott said:


> Here's one. The WIP I am dealing with involves a man who has set out to recover and repatriate the remains of his father who is listed as missing-in-action during the vietnam war.


I'd call that a "war story". I define that as a character-driven story that describes how war affects people. This story's a great example of how it continues to affect people, years or decades after peace is declared.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm just glad folks find it helpful. If I can stop one paranormal romance from being classified as survival horror, my work is done lol


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## Enkel (May 15, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I'm just glad folks find it helpful. If I can stop one paranormal romance from being classified as survival horror, my work is done lol


The Genre Avenger... waging the never ending battle against mis-categorization!


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The thing with "literary" is that it really is less a genre than it is a way of writing. The general difference between what we would call "general fiction" and "literary fiction" is one of form. And it is important not to confuse what we might call "canon" with the literary genre. Great books that stand the test of time are often called "literary" but often the authors didn't set out to write a "literary" novel. Dickens wrote satires and coming-of-age novels, for example. But those works ascended so to speak to the level of what would be considered canon about English Literature. "Literary" is often used to refer to what are considered canonical works, but that isn't the actual definition of the genre itself. One of the points I tried to get across is that not everything IS genre fiction. The great majority of published works are simply "fiction" and don't fall into a genre per se.


Good answer. 
I have not felt comfortable pigeonholing my novel, and the description that I detest most is "autobiographical novel." My answer, during one interview was: All writing is autobiographical.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Richardcrasta said:


> All writing is autobiographical.


*snort*

Because my epic fantasy about a half goddess who is ordered to murder her sister is *so* from my background


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Because my epic fantasy about a half goddess who is ordered to murder her sister is *so* from my background


Yet strangely, you come across so meek and humble, online.


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## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Ok, Julie. I'm back. 

So my little novella is just about ready for Amazon, I'm just still pounding on the cover and kicking at the Word document for good measure. It should be ready by the end of the week. My nails are done already.
The genre though, as previously discussed, is lost on me.

It's about a young woman who can remember her past life as Cleopatra.
Here's the blurb so far;


> People sometimes wonder how they're going to die one day. Will it be painful? Will it be quick? When will it happen? Cynthia doesn't worry about that. Cynthia has other things to worry about her.
> She has had other things invading her mind and sleep and dreams ever since she was a little girl. Cynthia can remember how she died. And how she had lived before that.
> 
> Life as a single mother working a menial, dead-end job can be soul numbing and disparaging. Finding yourself in this particular situation, approaching your forties, living in a small hick town can be better described as soul crushing. Cynthia lives this life. Only, she has it worse still. She has to deal with remembering her past life, a life lived as one of the great icons of history.
> ...


It's a drama, I guess. It's about how her past life and the experiences she had there influences her present life. It's definitely an adult book, with moments of adult language, violence and dark themes. There's a smidgen of humor here and there too. Oh, and about half of the book is set in Cleopatra's age and half is in modern times, if that makes a difference.
Thoughts?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

RikNieu said:


> It's a drama, I guess. It's about how her past life and the experiences she had there influences her present life. It's definitely an adult book, with moments of adult language, violence and dark themes. There's a smidgen of humor here and there too.


Audult language, violence, dark themes, humor---these have nothing to do with what the book is ABOUT so forget them. What you say here could describe a war story, a horror novel, a Shakespeare play. These words mean nothing more than saying "my book has women AND men in it, so who should I market it to?"

Now THIS description is different from the one I previously saw. In this description, the woman isn't just remembering some random past life._ She's friggin Cleopatra_. And there is a hint that something from Cleopatra's past catches up with Cynthia. Now this is a far different thing from "woman remembers her past life and deals with the consequences." There is an implication here of a real supernatural element...SOMETHING from thousands of years ago has traveled through time to finish what it started. We are no longer dealing with a "Hey, I remember this house! I lived here a hundred years ago!" We're dealing with *"I have hunted you across time and space for ten centuries!" *

Completely different vibe from what you originally presented.

Assuming that the blurb accurately does represent some..._thing_ from the past hunting her down, then you have an urban fantasy, not a drama.


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## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Audult language, violence, dark themes, humor---these have nothing to do with what the book is ABOUT so forget them. What you say here could describe a war story, a horror novel, a Shakespeare play. These words mean nothing more than saying "my book has women AND men in it, so who should I market it to?"
> 
> Now THIS description is different from the one I previously saw. In this description, the woman isn't just remembering some random past life._ She's friggin Cleopatra_. And there is a hint that something from Cleopatra's past catches up with Cynthia. Now this is a far different thing from "woman remembers her past life and deals with the consequences." There is an implication here of a real supernatural element...SOMETHING from thousands of years ago has traveled through time to finish what it started. We are no longer dealing with a "Hey, I remember this house! I lived here a hundred years ago!" We're dealing with *"I have hunted you across time and space for ten centuries!" *
> 
> ...


Cool, okay see what you mean, but it's not like a creature or anything coming for her. More like...karma ripening, if you will.
The chickens coming to roost and all that. Am I making sense?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

RikNieu said:


> The chickens coming to roost and all that. Am I making sense?


No. I'm not following you at all. 

This is the issue. The further back in time you go with past-life regression, the less likely logistically (in "real world" terms) it is to make a difference today without some supernatural influence. For example:

A woman remembers her past life. She was murdered by her husband. The ex-husband is still alive and wants to make sure she doesn't reveal what happened. There are a lot of dramas and thrillers like this sort of scenario. Short term memory from a near-past life, where people are still alive that can be impacted by the memories. You can safely market this without a paranormal or "fantasy" label because you are still in the realm of plausibility.

But the further back in time you go, the less likely there is anyone alive to care. You can't just handwave it and say "karma" because that's...well...not really how karma works except in the cheesy personification-of-karma-for-stupid-western-civilizations sort of way.   Think the movie Final Destination, with death being personified as this intangible entity that got mad because people escaped it.

The root issue, then, becomes what is the catalyst for her past life having anything to do with her current life? What is the trigger? Don't tell me "Karma" because that's a cop-out. Why is she being punished NOW and who or what is doing the punishing? This is really the essential point to determine what your story is. Why now, and how is it happening?


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> A woman remembers her past life. She was murdered by her husband. The ex-husband is still alive and wants to make sure she doesn't reveal what happened. There are a lot of dramas and thrillers like this sort of scenario. Short term memory from a near-past life, where people are still alive that can be impacted by the memories. You can safely market this without a paranormal or "fantasy" label because you are still in the realm of plausibility.


Huh? How is that not paranormal?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

vrabinec said:


> Huh? How is that not paranormal?


Because enough people accept past lives as "fact" or "possible" that it no longer requires a paranormal descriptor. It's like if you write a story of someone having a near-death experience and speaking to their relative in Heaven. It doesn't automatically make it paranormal because a vast majority of people consider this plausible.

It's why in 1890 if you had a story about someone using a strange electrical box to access information across the world, it would be called sci-fi. Today, it would be called a Google search.  It's why if in 1800 you wrote a story about a woman using herbs to treat illness, she would automatically be assumed to be a witch. The same story today would just consider her a natural healer or homeopath.


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## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The root issue, then, becomes what is the catalyst for her past life having anything to do with her current life? What is the trigger? Don't tell me "Karma" because that's a cop-out. Why is she being punished NOW and who or what is doing the punishing? This is really the essential point to determine what your story is. Why now, and how is it happening?


I can't do that without giving away the punchline. I'm not willing to do that. It's not particularly clever, sure but it's mine and I want it hidden until it's read! 

Ok, how can I put this without pointing out the mirrors? She knows she was Cleopatra, she learns to deal with it and tries to move on with her life. Then, something happens that makes it impossible for her to ever do that. She make a huge miserable discovery that connects to her previous life as Cleopatra.


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## vrabinec (May 19, 2011)

Yeah, I suppose. That's the same reasoning that makes Scientology a religion, I guess.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2012)

RikNieu said:


> I can't do that without giving away the punchline. I'm not willing to do that. It's not particularly clever, sure but it's mine and I want it hidden until it's read!
> 
> Ok, how can I put this without pointing out the mirrors? She knows she was Cleopatra, she learns to deal with it and tries to move on with her life. Then, something happens that makes it impossible for her to ever do that. She make a huge miserable discovery that connects to her previous life as Cleopatra.


Well, in that case, you have to make the decision then based on what you know about the book. I can't do that for you. I can only "diagnose" a condition based on the patient's description of the symptoms.


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## RikNieu (Jun 2, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well, in that case, you have to make the decision then based on what you know about the book. I can't do that for you. I can only "diagnose" a condition based on the patient's description of the symptoms.


 
No! Just wave your hands over it and go woo!
But thanks, you've helped a lot already. 
I have to choose two categories on KDP so I went with fantasy/historical and fantasy/urban life so far. It's still unpublished though, so if you want to shout "NO!", go ahead, I just can't picture it in any of the other categories.


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## GM Barlean (Oct 12, 2011)

Julie, what is the cost of having you diagnose a genre?


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

GM Barlean said:


> Julie, what is the cost of having you diagnose a genre?


Thank you for reviving this thread. I have it bookmarked now. Julie's article that she links to in the original post is an excellent genre guide.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2014)

GM Barlean said:


> *****, what is the cost of having you diagnose a genre?


I got your PM and replied. You can post your info here if you want so everyone can tear it apart!


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## Jude Hardin (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi Julie. I'm not sure what category to put my new one in. It's set in the present day, but the technology is definitely cutting edge. So is it science fiction (cyberpunk?), or techno-thriller, or something else?

iSEAL

A civilian contractor for the Department of Defense has created an implantable brain-computer interface that will make the fiercest warriors on the planet exponentially smarter, faster, and deadlier.

Codename: iSEAL

After years of painstaking research, the device is finally ready for human trials.

Desperate to be reinstated as a Special Forces candidate, Nathan Brennan reluctantly volunteers for the study. Four weeks as a lab rat and his military career will be back on course.

Unfortunately, by the end of day one, he finds himself on the run from the police, the CIA, and a mysterious criminal mastermind named Oberwand.

With no memory of his past, and with little hope for a meaningful future, Brennan must utilize every weapon in his binary arsenal just to stay alive.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2014)

Jude Hardin said:


> Hi *****. I'm not sure what category to put my new one in. It's set in the present day, but the technology is definitely cutting edge. So is it science fiction (cyberpunk?), or techno-thriller, or something else?


The existence of cutting edge technology doesn't necessarily mean sci-fi. The role of the technology is more important. Sci fi focuses on fantastic but logically plausible creatures and technological developments while looking at the consequences of such developments. But not the "fantastic" part. We already have similar technology like you are suggestion. There is nothing fantastical about it. It is here. Just not fully developed yet. I don't have the impression that your book is focusing on the role of technology in society and it's impact on culture per se. I get the impression that your book is focused on the action and tension of the plot itself.

Cyberpunk is dystopian in nature. Your story appears to be normal modern society with high tech gadgets.

I think you are firmly in the thriller genre. Your plot sounds much more _Bourne Legacy_ than it does _I, Robot_.

As an aside, however, I would change the title. Apple comes down hard on people who infringe on their trademarks, and I am fairly sure they are not going to take kindly to iSEAL when their bots pick it up. In fact, you may have trouble using SEALS as well. The military actually applied for a trademark on the Seals in 2011 to prevent companies from trademarking merchandise off the name.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2014)

RobCornell said:


> Doc, I need help...STAT!
> 
> I have a series that I've tagged as urban fantasy, but I think might be a supernatural thriller. Here's the description of the first book:
> 
> Help!


I would say in your case it depends on where your focus is. Urban fantasy still follows the tropes of it's parent genre (fantasy). The focus is on the magical and fantastic, and there is a focus on clearly defined concepts of "good" and "evil". An urban fantasy is going to be focused on the integration of the fantastic into the mundane world, and how the characters reconcile these fantastic elements. A thriller is focused on building up the tension and careening toward it's climax. In either case, you will have elements of both. The point is to decide which the reader should be primarily focused on. On aspect is the focus, the other is the compliment. Without reading the book I have no way to know where your primary focus is, so you need to answer that for yourself.

For example, _A Game of Blood_ is a paranormal thriller. Yes, it has vampires in it, but the focus of the book is on the detective and trying to get to the bottom of a conspiracy. He is still approaching the case like he would any other case. He's using good old fashion police work. The vampires have some bizarre powers, but those powers are not the focus of the story. They are secondary and complimentary to the main plot.


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## Jude Hardin (Feb 5, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The existence of cutting edge technology doesn't necessarily mean sci-fi. The role of the technology is more important. Sci fi focuses on fantastic but logically plausible creatures and technological developments while looking at the consequences of such developments. But not the "fantastic" part. We already have similar technology like you are suggestion. There is nothing fantastical about it. It is here. Just not fully developed yet. I don't have the impression that your book is focusing on the role of technology in society and it's impact on culture per se. I get the impression that your book is focused on the action and tension of the plot itself.
> 
> Cyberpunk is dystopian in nature. Your story appears to be normal modern society with high tech gadgets.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Julie! That's what I was thinking--techno-thriller. In fact, my Hollywood pitch might be _Jason Bourne meets Robo-Cop.
_
And I don't think I'll have a problem with the title. As far as I can tell, Apple has no monopoly on the use of the letter "i," especially when it's used for something (like the title of a novel) where there's no confusion about said item being an Apple product. There's actually a company called The Seal that makes waterproof cases for iPhones, and the cases are called iSEAL (TM). But I've been in contact with the owner of that company, and she doesn't have a problem with me using the title for my novel. Sega has a toy called the iDog, and there's a company that makes phone stands called iSoldier...just a bunch of stuff out there using the letter i.

And of course there are scores of books about Navy SEALs that use the word SEAL in the title. Harlequin Blaze has a line called Uniformly Hot that uses the word in several titles, and there are many others.

So the title shouldn't be a problem.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

As a reader though, I have to say that the title would make me think the book was silly or not serious. The trend of putting "i" in front of everything is pretty much a trope or farce by now. I cannot see the military actually naming a program that


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## Callie Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Chad Winters said:


> As a reader though, I have to say that the title would make me think the book was silly or not serious. The trend of putting "i" in front of everything is pretty much a trope or farce by now. I cannot see the military actually naming a program that


Agreed.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

I've been worrying about how I would categorize my book ever since I started writing it. Now, I'm done, it's edited, I'm making final cover decisions this week and publishing next week, and... I still have no idea which cats to put it into. I haven't written the blurb yet, but here's the gist of the story:

Jimmy 'Guitar' Velvet is a 44 year old rocker who never escaped the bar band circuit of the Pacific Northwest. As he is travelling from one gig to another, the band bus crashes into a river and Jimmy shuffles off this mortal coil. He finds himself ultimately in a place called Rock 'n Roll Heaven, where he meets legends like Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, etc. There is trouble in RnR Heaven, and Jimmy turns out to be just the person to solve the problem.

It's fairly light-hearted, kind of going for a Nick Hornsby type of vibe. There is an angel, but he's more like a guide than a protagonist. 

I honestly don't know enough about genres or categories outside of the ones I've published in before to have a clue about this one. I really do appreciate any help from the folks who are smarter than me. (That's a long list...)


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

Shawn Inmon said:


> Jimmy 'Guitar' Velvet is a 44 year old rocker who never escaped the bar band circuit of the Pacific Northwest. As he is travelling from one gig to another, the band bus crashes into a river and Jimmy shuffles off this mortal coil. He finds himself ultimately in a place called Rock 'n Roll Heaven, where he meets legends like Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, etc. There is trouble in RnR Heaven, and Jimmy turns out to be just the person to solve the problem.


Sounds like contemporary fantasy to me. A fantasy is a story in which magic and the supernatural are the primary motivators of the plot, presented within a self-contained world. That self-contained world is either the primary world of the story (Forgotten Realms) or an alternate world in which the protagonist enters (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe). In your case, the self-contained magical world is Heaven, and the protagonist is going from the real world to the "fantasy" world.


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Sounds like contemporary fantasy to me. A fantasy is a story in which magic and the supernatural are the primary motivators of the plot, presented within a self-contained world. That self-contained world is either the primary world of the story (Forgotten Realms) or an alternate world in which the protagonist enters (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe). In your case, the self-contained magical world is Heaven, and the protagonist is going from the real world to the "fantasy" world.


Awesome. Thank you Julie. I read fairly broadly, but I never think of genre or conventions when I do, so I really have no clue. I would have thought I would have had to include more magical creatures to be part of the fantasy genre. Thanks again, Julie. This is a valuable thread for maroons like me.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

Ok so I keep saying mine is a paranormal romance but honestly I am not 100% sure.

The book basically involves werewolves, humans and fae. 

The main female thinks she is human and her best friend his human (they have no clue werewolves exist) She rescues the main male character after another werewolf tried to kill him. Here is were things get complicated so maybe I should bullet point this.
:She just lost her father and fiance dumped her right before fathers death which was also preceded by her grandmothers death. When she meets main male character she is just a shell of a person
: Main male characters' father is Beta to Supreme Alpha, it is assumed Supreme Alpha has no heirs so the father is putting pressure onto main male character to assume the role of heir to Supreme alpha, he is refusing and as such has been sent away from the Supreme Alpha House until he agrees.
:Son of Pack Alpha for where main male character has been sent is trying to kill main male character to protect his own secret.
:Main female and male characters meet after failed murder attempt and end up drawn together and falling in love
:Guardian Fae of the Werewolves claims gaurdianship over main female character causing some chaos and the main female character to die and be reborn
: Pack Alpha son ends up challenging main male character for a right to mate with main female character.
:Main charaacter are trying to make things work and its very tough but they are determined to stick together no matter what.
uring challenge main female loses it when Main male character goes down and is temporarily kncked out.. She ends up full releasing both fae and werewolf powers and ends up knocking everyone out but Supreme Alpha
: Supreme Alpha shows up at the end of the challenge just as Main female's power explodes he recognizes her as his wife who ends up being her grandmother and she recognizes him as being the exact image of her father.
: It gets revealed that Main female is SUpreme Alphas granddaughter and as such the heir to the Alphaship but she is ALSO the daughter to the Guardian Fae.
Main characters end up having a very rough courtship through all this but in the end end up with happily ever after... so I have no clue if this IS a paranormal romance or not. LOL


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

Shawn Inmon said:


> Awesome. Thank you *****. I read fairly broadly, but I never think of genre or conventions when I do, so I really have no clue. I would have thought I would have had to include more magical creatures to be part of the fantasy genre. Thanks again, *****. This is a valuable thread for maroons like me.


People tend to overthink it. There are "levels" of fantasy. High Fantasy is your traditional wizards and dragons stuff where every other chapter has new magical creatures. This is what a lot of people think when they think "fantasy." But fantasy encompasses a rather broad spectrum. The primary concern is not the overall volume of magical creatures, but that the magic is central to the plot.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

Rae,

There are two requirements for romance:

1. A HEA (or at least, a happy for now)
2. The RELATIONSHIP between the hero and heroine is the central plot focus. I.E. their struggle to be together against all odds.

Or rather, is the romance between the protagonists ESSENTIAL to the story or merely INCIDENTAL. If the hero and heroine didn't end up together at the end, but decided to just be friends, would the story still be satisfying? Are the readers expected to be emotionally involved in the RELATIONSHIP or focused on the action? From what you are describing, it sounds like the romantic element is a plot device for the action, not the other way around. From what you explain, you seem more focused on the magic and powers and intrigue among supernaturals than the romance itself. You are probably looking at more urban fantasy than paranormal romance based on what you are describing.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

Ok I was wondering because her involvement with him is what triggers everything to happen. Would they have as fullfilling a story? umm IDK because its also their relationship that allows her to heal and grow from the past hurts and to become whole again... I guess I will stick with what your saying because I find the whole genres thing confusing. LOL


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Sounds like contemporary fantasy to me. A fantasy is a story in which magic and the supernatural are the primary motivators of the plot, presented within a self-contained world. That self-contained world is either the primary world of the story (Forgotten Realms) or an alternate world in which the protagonist enters (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe). In your case, the self-contained magical world is Heaven, and the protagonist is going from the real world to the "fantasy" world.


It's amazing how the WC serves up the right thread/information at the right time. Julie, I needed to read this definition so much, because like Shawn I'm working on a story with just such elements. Contemporary fantasy nails it.

Thank you!


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> It's amazing how the WC serves up the right thread/information at the right time. Julie, I needed to read this definition so much, because like Shawn I'm working on a story with just such elements. Contemporary fantasy nails it.
> 
> Thank you!


Let me know when you publish, EC... I'll be your first buy!


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## EC Sheedy (Feb 24, 2011)

Shawn Inmon said:


> Let me know when you publish, EC... I'll be your first buy!


Gotta get the d*mn thing written first! My heaven/hell scenario with a love story, a certain very difficult Mr. Dark (guess who he is) and the bureaucratic SITT (Souls in Transit Tribunal) are not making my life easy. 

But ditto for you, if yours is out already, I missed it. I will check for it now...


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

EC Sheedy said:


> EC Sheedy said:
> 
> 
> > Gotta get the d*mn thing written first! My heaven/hell scenario with a love story, a certain very difficult Mr. Dark (guess who he is) and the bureaucratic SITT (Souls in Transit Tribunal) are not making my life easy.
> ...


I love those kind of stories. Yes, please finish writing it so I can read it!

Mine isn't out yet... Probably Tuesday of next week. Got the final edits back over the weekend, so I'm trying to mop up the sea of red over all the pages.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Shawn Inmon said:


> Awesome. Thank you Julie. I read fairly broadly, but I never think of genre or conventions when I do, so I really have no clue. I would have thought I would have had to include more magical creatures to be part of the fantasy genre. Thanks again, Julie. This is a valuable thread for maroons like me.


And you could title it

Rock and Roll Fantasy


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## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Cherise Kelley said:


> And you could title it
> 
> Rock and Roll Fantasy


Now why didn't I think of that!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> **I meant to write a coming-of-age story that transcended into a New Adult Series, but the readers mostly talk about the suspense of the girl in the box. It's a HFN, with reconciliation for the girls and their mother, survival and hope at the end.


First, you need to understand that there is a difference between coming-of-age and YA/NA. And that difference is in the narrative voice and perspective. A coming-of-age tale is one told from a position of nostalgia, and adult perspective looking back on a younger time (for good or bad). There is a sense of distance between the narrator (who may be the main character) and the narrative because of a distance of time.

YA/NA are very much set in the now of the story. They are told from a position of urgency from the perspective of the age group or younger. You don't "transcend" from one to the other because despite sharing certain tropes they serve two very different audiences and have two very different goals.

The bigger question is whether or not you are talking in symbolic terms or literal terms. Is the woman LITERALLY trapped in some magical box, or is that a symbol for some real-world trauma? There is a lot of very pretty verbiage in the blurb---but it doesn't actually SAY anything about the story. If you are merely waxing metaphoricly and these women are functioning in a non-magical "real world" with real world drama, then it sounds more like women's fiction (women's fiction focuses on interpersonal relationships between female characters and are told from the narrative perspective of a woman). If you aren't being metaphoric and there literally is a magic tattoo and prophesy and people trapped in moxes, it would be contemporary fantasy.


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

Julie, this thread is amazingly educational, so thank you for that.

Can you define the difference between urban fantasy and contemporary fantasy? Would my YA fantasy story involving magic in today's right-now world, but set in a rural, small-town environment (and high school) be more properly classified as contemporary or urban?


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

A contemporary fantasy is a traditional fantasy in which the contained magical world is the real world. An urban fantasy is one set in an urban environment, usually focused on the conflict between humans and a supernatural force and how this conflict impacts the urban setting. With a contemporary fantasy, magic is generally viewed as a natural part of the world regardless of how it is used. In urban fantasy, it is often considered a destructive force. Contemporary fantasy maintains the sense of wonder about magic and still have a sense of "good versus evil", while urban fantasy tends to be darker and deal in shades of gray.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm writing my first contemporary and I'm categorizing it as women's fiction>new adult & college/ romance>new adult & college. It is a story that is told through both the perspective of the male and female character and has a central romance plot, but the issues the female character is dealing with is very much in the women's fiction realm. She is a twenty year old single mother who left college when her mother committed suicide to take care of her younger sister and deal with a bipolar older sister who had her first emotional break after the mother's death. The relationships between the sisters is a major part of the story and what makes the story most powerful in my opinion. 
I have many of the NA romance tropes like a tattooed MMA fighter, biker boy. My hero actually turned out to be pretty emotionally available and not as much of an alpha "bad boy" as I usually see. I can't really write that kind of man. I need my heroes to have some emotional vulnerability, or I don't find them attractive. The male character is dealing with his own set of problems and both characters end up battling a serious drug dealing problem in the small coastal northern California town. 

In some ways, I wish I'd left out the NA romance tropes and written this more as a women's fiction, but it has become central to the plot, so I won't change it now. I've seen other books categorized as women's fiction and romance and they seem to make sense. My female narrator has more face time, but the male character does have a major role. I'm a little nervous about this book as the issues I'm dealing with are so intense. I usually don't see romance where there are children, especially in NA, although I saw one on the bestseller list last week. It was also categorized as women's fiction. Also dealing with the issue of mental illness is tricky. Young adulthood is usually when mental illness becomes evident, so it is very much in keeping with issues that pertain to the age range. I just hope I don't get criticized for writing about it.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

What a great idea for a thread. I have one to throw into the mix.

I usually write fantasy or sci-fi romance, with a definite emphasis on the romance, but while this story has a lot of romantic relationships, I'm not sure I could call it romance, since the HEA doesn't come until at least the third season (I'm going with a serial for this one, another new thing for me.)

The rough blurb for the first installment of the serial is:

_She can't run away from her past.

Seventy three years of experience and regret, in a magically enhanced twenty five year old body, Elizabeth has had plenty of time to build up a list of big regrets. Two families she left in fear, and a whole lot of guilt, she's spent the last twenty years putting the past behind her. She's determined not to repeat it, and that means not getting involved, because then she can't hurt anyone.

But when the letter arrives telling her her grandson has gone missing, she doesn't hesitate, leaving behind yet another life to go chasing after the past.

Will the past repeat itself again, or this time, can she get things right?_

But I'm not sure if I'm happy with it yet, as it totally leaves out the even older Mage who she has a previous relationship with, and who is convinced he has to have a baby with her to save the world from a horrific tragedy, the non-Mage partner who loves her, but knows she doesn't quite feel the same way, her family who have a hidden magical agenda, and quite a few sword and/or magical fight scenes.

I'm thinking it's possibly women's fiction / fantasy, or fantasy / sword and sorcery, but I'm open to other suggestions.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Annabelle,

The existing of a romance in a book does not make the book a romance. I don't think this point can EVER be stressed enough. A romance is a very specific genre where the focus of the story is solely on the hero and heroine's relationship and it has a HEA or HFN. If your story's primary focus is NOT on that relationship, it is not a romance.

Genre is at its heart defined by its focus. For your book to be a romance, then the relationship would come first and be CHALLENGED by everything else in the story, and end with the couple's HEA. That doesn't sound like the case. It sounds like the romance is something IN ADDITION to everything else your protagonist is dealing with. The romance is not the central focus of the story, but rather one more problem complicating her life. 

So don't feel obligated to call your book a romance simply because there is a romantic relationship. I think you are on track with women's fiction/New Adult without muddying the waters with an additional Romance angle.


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Annabelle,
> 
> The existing of a romance in a book does not make the book a romance. I don't think this point can EVER be stressed enough. A romance is a very specific genre where the focus of the story is solely on the hero and heroine's relationship and it has a HEA or HFN. If your story's primary focus is NOT on that relationship, it is not a romance.
> 
> ...


Actually, the problems do stand in the way of the relationship. There is a coming together then breaking apart then coming together again because of the issues that challenge them both. I _can_ make that element stronger and more defined. I can add more conflict between the couple because of their internal and external conflicts. Thank you for the feedback. Once I'm done with my own edits, I'm sending it to betas. Then I'll edit it again. I want this story to be a romance, otherwise I wouldn't have made the romance so central to the plot.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Rinelle,

Read what I just wrote to Annabelle.   The presence of a romance doesn't make a book a romance. An emphasis on the romantic relationship at points in the series is not the same thing as a sole focus on the relationship. 

I also don't see women's fiction. A female protagonist doesn't automatically make a book women's fiction. Women's fiction specifically deals with interpersonal relationships between women told from a woman's perspective. This isn't the same thing as having a female protagonist. 

Also, sword and sorcery is a very specific sub-genre within fantasy. It is darker, gritter fantasy with a high focus on action/adventure and tend to be low-magic environments where magic is often portrayed as inherently evil. The Hero's quests are of a more personal nature instead of world-impacting nature. But sword and sorcery is "the hero's journey." 

You have to be the final judge of your work, but based strictly on what you presented it sounds like straightforward fantasy.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Annabelle Fogerty said:


> Actually, the problems do stand in the way of the relationship. There is a coming together then breaking apart then coming together again because of the issues that challenge them both. I _can_ make that element stronger and more defined. I can add more conflict between the couple because of their internal and external conflicts. Thank you for the feedback. Once I'm done with my own edits, I'm sending it to betas. Then I'll edit it again. I want this story to be a romance, otherwise I wouldn't have made the romance so central to the plot.


Then it sounds like you know what you need to do.  You probably need to pull back on some of the external plot threads and weave them into the primary focus instead of having them float out there as individual threads independent on the relationship.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

I realize I'm repeating a common refrain, but this thread is just amazingly useful!


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## Redacted1111 (Oct 26, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Then it sounds like you know what you need to do.  You probably need to pull back on some of the external plot threads and weave them into the primary focus instead of having them float out there as individual threads independent on the relationship.


Your feedback is very helpful. 
Her home life and baby are a big reason she's reluctant to get into a relationship. The sister and the drug problem are a central conflict in the relationship because she thinks he is in a biker gang that is dealing the drugs. It turns out he isn't and then saves the day from the heroine dealers. But it's a massive plot point right in the middle of the novel. She finds her bipolar sister shooting up in his biker gang's clubhouse.

I think I need to extend that conflict out longer. I have them separated while he's off training for a mma showdown with a rival biker gang, but I could keep her angry longer perhaps. I'll have to feel it out as I edit. I need to deal with some plausibility issues. Realism is important and I need to make sure that people's behaviors and situations are not beyond suspended disbelief.

But you are remanding me how important the emotional tension between h/H is to the romance plot. It's a good reminder as I edit.

I'm actually planning to write love stories for both sisters so they are spin off characters. Yes, even the bipolar junkie deserves to get better and find love.  Ah fiction.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Rinelle,
> 
> Read what I just wrote to Annabelle.  The presence of a romance doesn't make a book a romance. An emphasis on the romantic relationship at points in the series is not the same thing as a sole focus on the relationship.


Yeah, I knew it wasn't romance. Just not used to this, as it's what I normally write!



> I also don't see women's fiction. A female protagonist doesn't automatically make a book women's fiction. Women's fiction specifically deals with interpersonal relationships between women told from a woman's perspective. This isn't the same thing as having a female protagonist.


Is it only women's relationships with other women? I was under the impression it was about the change and growth of the woman, and her relationships with others (not necessarily just women).



> Also, sword and sorcery is a very specific sub-genre within fantasy. It is darker, gritter fantasy with a high focus on action/adventure and tend to be low-magic environments where magic is often portrayed as inherently evil. The Hero's quests are of a more personal nature instead of world-impacting nature. But sword and sorcery is "the hero's journey."
> 
> You have to be the final judge of your work, but based strictly on what you presented it sounds like straightforward fantasy.


Thanks for that. I was unaware of the specifics of sword and sorcery.

I'm hesitant to go with straight fantasy because although magic is a strong element of the story, there is also a lot of relationships as well. Or maybe I'm just intimidated by the label of straight fantasy? I feel like I can't possibly be writing it.  Need to think on that one.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Rinelle Grey said:


> Is it only women's relationships with other women? I was under the impression it was about the change and growth of the woman, and her relationships with others (not necessarily just women).


It CAN be about personal growth, but that would have to be the primary focus. Think about it, aren't ALL books in some way about character growth? In good fiction, all characters change and grow. But that is part of the character development and not the actual plot. I know it sounds like hair-splitting, but with these sort of things hair-splitting is the point. You MAY be writing women's fiction but your blurb is not reflecting that. That is often the disconnect between fiction writing and marketing copy! Which is why I said you have to be the final judge. I can only comment based on what you present to me. If nothing else, if you feel you are writing women's fiction, then take this as a notice to reconsider your blurb and marketing plan.

But don't be afraid of the fantasy label. I'd love to see more fantasy with strong female characters who are strong because they are strong emotionally and mentally and not just because they are men with boobs!


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## HeyImBen (Mar 7, 2013)

Hi Julie,

If you get the chance would you  use  your immense deciphering skills on my soon to be released novel, Arnco.  I'm really at a loss with where to put this.  It does not have a happily ever after, and I'm loathe to put it in romance and get killed.

Blurb:  Jake Brigham, a wildly successful first time author is drowning in the undertow of his newfound success.  After years of "winning," he realizes he has only lost--a beloved mother, a marriage, even his ability to create.  Eventually, he leaves the demands of New York and returns to a place once close to his heart: Arnco, a dying Georgia mill village.  He rebuilds his life, and his passion returns, for words, and for a childhood friend.

Allie Tanner, a widowed, single mother, has been fighting demons since the day she was born.  Her entire life has been a struggle-- with an alcoholic father, her own health problems, the death of her husband, and the constant worry that she may never be able to protect the one thing that means the most: her daughter Grace.
Jake ignites the spark of hope within her, and she within him.  And each for very different reasons.  When circumstances from their past collide with their present, will their hopes survive? Will tragedy cause a horrific breakdown or an inspirational destiny?

Any direction you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Ben


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

No Hea/HFN = No Romance. Yep, you WILL get crucified if you put it under Romance and the hero and heroine don't end up together at the end.

Assuming no werewolves or fairies make appearances in the work, it sounds like straightforward drama/literary. I'm thinking _Bridges of Madison County_.


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## HeyImBen (Mar 7, 2013)

A thousand thanks, Julie.  I hate it when I over-think things.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

HeyImBen said:


> A thousand thanks, *****. I hate it when I over-think things.


This is actually what it boils down to: over-thinking it. Genre is not really that complicated when you boil the story down to it's core concept. The trick is not to get lost in all of the window-dressing of your story and focus on the heart of it.

I'm glad folks find this thread useful after all this time.


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## HeyImBen (Mar 7, 2013)

Yeah, I was so focused on this as a love story, that the overriding theme, redemption, got lost along the way.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Julie, I wrote a book where the heroine is turned into a cat and her fiance is turned into a dog. And it's about their struggles to map out a relationship while under a spell that makes them natural enemies.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> *****, I wrote a book where the heroine is turned into a cat and her fiance is turned into a dog. And it's about their struggles to map out a relationship while under a spell that makes them natural enemies.


*blink* *blink*

It HAS been a while since you tortured me...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Julie, I wrote a book where the heroine is turned into a cat and her fiance is turned into a dog. And it's about their struggles to map out a relationship while under a spell that makes them natural enemies.


The important thing for me to know is how long is the book? 

Betsy


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> The important thing for me to know is how long is the book?
> 
> Betsy


You'll be happy to know I'm writing far more novel-lengths these days


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> *blink* *blink*
> 
> It HAS been a while since you tortured me...


I'm in between books. You know how I get


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## MorganKegan (Jan 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> No Hea/HFN = No Romance. Yep, you WILL get crucified if you put it under Romance and the hero and heroine don't end up together at the end.
> 
> Assuming no werewolves or fairies make appearances in the work, it sounds like straightforward drama/literary. I'm thinking _Bridges of Madison County_.


Everything is made better by faeries.


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## Scottish Lass (Oct 10, 2013)

Dear Doctor Julie,

I have similar issues (I think) to Annabelle and Rinelle above.

I'm writing a 6-novella series where there _will_ be some romance and a HEA at the end, and the relationship development of the main couple has threads in each episode, but each individual episode isn't a romance, and I struggle to know how to classify them.

Basically they are very similar to an early-evening TV drama series; PG/PG13 so suitable for teenagers, with a different protagonist and theme for each episode, but the main lady's story (and HEA) develops as the series goes on. Many of the characters are late teens/early twenties, and I've certainly had some teenaged reviewers who've enjoyed them. But closed doors so not NA in the way I understand it. Would my vocabulary be too wide and the characters too old for YA? I'd originally thought action/romance or women's fiction as I try to deal with character issues such as lack of confidence or childlessness, but as I said, I struggle!

Here's the blurb for Episode 1:
When her ski instructor husband is delayed from returning to Scotland, it falls to Jude Winters - creative graphic artist, mother and home-maker - to get the season started for ailing White Cairns Ski School. It's a challenge that's way out of her comfort zone. How can she turn things around and keep the wolf from their door until he gets back?

Ep2:
A lost child and an approaching blizzard put White Cairns' ski instructor Fiona Easton in a life-threatening predicament. Can she overcome her fear of heights to prevent tragedy blighting her life again?

Ep3:
Before he can carry on with his round-the-world ski odyssey, kiwi Mike Cole is helping Jude Winters to run their Scottish ski school whilst her husband is working in - ironically - New Zealand.
In the run-up to Valentine's Day, the annual ski school race turns into a grudge match with rival ski school Ski-Easy. Mike has to train his motley team of instructors and shoulder the responsibility of skiing the anchor leg. Then an accident leaves them one skier short. Who can they find to complete the team and give them a chance of winning?

I guess that in each episode, the action of the story, conflict, and the people around them combine to change or develop the main character. As they should...
Can you help at all with how I should classify the episodes?

Many thanks 

Roz


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2014)

Roz,



> Basically they are very similar to an early-evening TV *drama * series


Sounds like you already know your genre and you're overthinking it.  Drama/Contemporary fiction.

Remember, there is a difference between "suitable for young adults" and the YA/NA genres. PG and PG-13 ratings are merely indicators for parents about content, NOT target audience. _Gravity_ is rated PG-13. So is _Non-Stop_. So is _Thor: Dark World_. None of them, however, would be considered YA films. And teenagers enjoying a book doesn't make it YA any more than me enjoying _The Lego Movie_ makes it an adult drama.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> You'll be happy to know I'm writing far more novel-lengths these days


Good news, indeed. Off to poke around....


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## Scottish Lass (Oct 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Roz,
> 
> Sounds like you already know your genre and you're overthinking it.  Drama/Contemporary fiction.
> 
> Remember, there is a difference between "suitable for young adults" and the YA/NA genres. PG and PG-13 ratings are merely indicators for parents about content, NOT target audience. _Gravity_ is rated PG-13. So is _Non-Stop_. So is _Thor: Dark World_. None of them, however, would be considered YA films. And teenagers enjoying a book doesn't make it YA any more than me enjoying _The Lego Movie_ makes it an adult drama.


Heehee, thanks, and that's helpful 

I think I'd looked at Drama and it was full of Shakespeare and play scripts so I thought that couldn't be the right place. 
I'll have another look - thanks again


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Good news, indeed. Off to poke around....


I don't think any of them have been published yet  But there's like 4 this year!


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Julie, I wrote a book where the heroine is turned into a cat and her fiance is turned into a dog. And it's about their struggles to map out a relationship while under a spell that makes them natural enemies.


Krista,
Have you read Carol Emshwiller's Carmen Dog (Peapod Classics)? Not the same premise exactly, but super interesting story exploring gender and relationships.

You should also check out how many genre categories the book is listed in on AZ.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I was definitely teasing Julie


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Krista D. Ball said:


> I was definitely teasing Julie


Oh. I was kinda interested in your story concept. Still, _Carmen Dog_ is a good book.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

I could only write that while stone sober, off wheat, and in sugar withdrawal.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

I have an interesting scenario and maybe you can help! 

I'm revising my 85k romantic comedy. The main focus in the story is the relationship and there will definitely be a HEA. Here is a comment someone made about my manuscript and the genre I am shooting for after they read the first draft:

_Right now, it seems split between traditional romance, a genre read almost entirely by middle-aged women, or the more bawdy, sarcastic male centric books written by the likes of Nick Hornby. I suggest that you determine who your influences are and figure out who reads their books. For example, someone who reads Nicholas Sparks love stories, would be less inclined to read a story that uses curse words often and contains a scene detailing your main characters erection while he is at Starbucks. You either need to tone down the sexual humor or turn it up, but remember that ultimately a story like that should still have heart. _

I kind of agree with her. I know you don't know my book, but what do you think of her observation? And would you have any other recommendations for someone in my position? I noticed many of the books I like crossover from the romance genre to straight humor. Is it possible to have both? Is it possible to brand myself for both?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!


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## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Julie, I wrote a book where the heroine is turned into a cat and her fiance is turned into a dog. And it's about their struggles to map out a relationship while under a spell that makes them natural enemies.


^best post award^


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

A "romantic comedy" is not the same thing as a "romance." A comedy is a comedy. In this case, "romantic" is a descriptor or qualifier for the type of comedy. Just like a "historical romance" is a romance set in a certain time period, but not a historical fiction. Or an "erotic thriller" is still a thriller, not an erotica. 

One key point of romance often overlooked and perhaps would provide some insight in your case, when we talk about the relationship, we are talking about the concept of romantic love. When we say a romance focuses on the relationship, we don't mean that you're just detailing the facts about the relationship. The story is about romantic love. It's why a movie like Mr. and Mrs. Smith is NOT considered a romance, but an action-comedy, despite the fact that the movie is completely about the two main characters' relationship and has a HEA. 

So it may be that the reader was picking up on the fact that the book really doesn't discuss "romantic love" in the way it would commonly be understood in a romance. Or the reader was just a prude. I don't myself read romances. So...

But again, this is why I tell people they need to be the final judge. I can nudge you in the right direction, but ultimately you know your book. I don't.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> A "romantic comedy" is not the same thing as a "romance." A comedy is a comedy. In this case, "romantic" is a descriptor or qualifier for the type of comedy.
> 
> Or the reader was just a prude.


Well, I agree, I definitely think the reader was a little prudish. lol.

FYI...Amazon lists romantic comedies under Romance, not comedy.


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

Rich Amooi said:


> FYI...Amazon lists romantic comedies under Romance, not comedy.


Seems like this is something you might want to take up with them after publication. I can see why the word "romantic" would throw off automatic category placement, but you can always contact support and make your case for why it doesn't belong in the romance section. I can understand why a romance reader wouldn't like a book that focuses more on the comedy than the romance.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2014)

Rich Amooi said:


> Well, I agree, I definitely think the reader was a little prudish. lol.
> 
> FYI...Amazon lists romantic comedies under Romance, not comedy.


Amazon categories are not the same as genres. In fact, Amazon often doesn't even have the same categories available between print and ebook. So don't use them as a guide for your genre. For example, under Children's Books ---> Comics and Graphic Novels ---> Manga. Does this mean all comics and graphic novels are children's books? Or does it mean that this category is specific for children's books that are in comic book format? Same with your example. Romance---> Romantic comedies doesn't mean romantic comedy is always a sub-genre of romance. It means that these particular romantic comedies are romances.


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## Rich Amooi (Feb 14, 2014)

Lummox JR said:


> Seems like this is something you might want to take up with them after publication. I can see why the word "romantic" would throw off automatic category placement, but you can always contact support and make your case for why it doesn't belong in the romance section. I can understand why a romance reader wouldn't like a book that focuses more on the comedy than the romance.


I think the books do quite well there in that category under romance. Not sure I would say a romantic comedy always focuses more on comedy than romance, though. I think the best romantic comedies have a great balance between the two. So I can see how they would put it in the romance category, since that category is much larger than comedy. I would also say that romantic comedies appeal more to romance readers than comedy readers.


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## J. R. Blaisy (Feb 4, 2014)

Dear Dr Julie,

I have been puzzling for months over the genre of my novel. (I have just now read your 'Writing Clinic: Defining Genre'.) I should say that I have never thought for a moment that I might have invented a new genre. For all I know there may be an identical book out there. It's just that it does seem betwixt and between, and I don't want to misrepresent it.

OK. It's certainly political and social satire, quite broad and often tending to the farcical. It's loosely in the form of a political thriller - but although the protagonist is in danger and plays a part in the intrigues it's really a vehicle for the satire and comedy. The protagonist is a young woman, a very modern miss, feisty but naive, vain and badly-behaved. Her story is told in the first person, in the form of secret, after-the-event 'journals'. But she's not intended as a cypher, she writes increasingly about her feelings, especially her concerns about her wayward love life. She is consciously on a journey, losing her remaining innocence and, she hopes, developing emotionally. She's a magazine journalist with writing ambitions and writes in a breezy informal style.

So, it's sort of faux chick-lit, as well as a jolly but cynical comedy-thriller. But so much of the humour is related to the form and style, and the journal device, that I wonder if it isn't literary fiction, in a way.

It's hard to know: humo(u)r seems a funny, almost non-existent genre, often consisting of books you might find in the loo (john) - but obviously many or even most books in all genres use humour extensively.

Sorry if this reads like a plug - it's not intentional. Guidance needed!


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2014)

J.R.

Your overthinking and overtalking. Just tell me the actual plot and lets start from there. Sum up your story in ONE SENTENCE. And then tell me the plot without all of the bells-and-whistles. You're like the patient who recites off to the doctor all of the diseases they read about online, but doesn't actually describe his symptoms!


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

Dear Dr. Julie,

I've been going back and forth on exactly what genre my Dream Series books really are, and I hope you can give me your thoughts.  

Basically, the premise is this: a college student discovers she has the ability to step into other people's dreams.  Sometimes it's a good thing (when she visits the dreams of a cute freshman in another dorm who's dreaming about her), sometimes it's just weird (when she steps into the dreams of random classmates whose secrets she really doesn't want to know) and then there are the dreams that are terrifying (when she finds herself in the dreams of a strange man who's doing unspeakable things to teenage girls...and then the next morning in the newspaper is a picture of the teenage girl - now a murder victim).

She gets together with the cute freshman early on, and falls completely for him; and once she realizes that she actually is visiting other people's dreams, she also knows she's the only witness to a series of murders, but nobody except her best friend and her new boyfriend would ever believe her.  So there's the love story, and the hunt for a killer, and also her everyday life as she tries to get through final exams and Christmas with her (and her boyfriend's) family without losing her mind.

So...?  What do you think?  Any guidance would be really helpful (and appreciated!)


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2014)

As always, the point is to not overthink it. Her romantic relationship has no bearing on the genre. The existence of a love interest does NOT MAKE A STORY A ROMANCE. If the romance is not the central focus of the story, don't even bring it up in the discussion.

I swear, the next person who mentions an off-the-cuff romantic element that is not central to the plot is going to have to write the following on the chalkboard a 100 times:



> The existence of a romance in a story does not make a story a romance.


I'm warning people, I have a ruler and I know how to use it! 

Now moving on...

I get the impression this is probably a paranormal mystery in line with stuff like _The Dresden Files_ or _Kolchak: The Night Stalker_ and similar works in which you have a non-detective (Dresden is a private paranormal investigator and wizard, Kolchak is a reporter with an interest in the occult) who investigates crimes. It isn't a thriller, because I don't have the feeling that the book has the "edge-of-your-seat" urgency that we get in a thriller. I have the impression this is more a matter of putting together a puzzle. Thrillers don't leave a lot of room for residual plot threads like you are discussing. But it is a common point in mystery series to have these other ongoing plot threads (like dealing with the boyfriend, school, and her developing powers) from book to book.


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## starkllr (Mar 21, 2013)

Thanks, Julie!

That makes a lot of sense to me - I appreciate it.


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## J. R. Blaisy (Feb 4, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> J.R.
> 
> Your overthinking and overtalking. Just tell me the actual plot and lets start from there. Sum up your story in ONE SENTENCE. And then tell me the plot without all of the bells-and-whistles. You're like the patient who recites off to the doctor all of the diseases they read about online, but doesn't actually describe his symptoms!


Haha, alright doctor, I've got a mysterious pain. I'm worried it could be 'genres'.

The Smart Girl is a breezy satire on British politics, its sleazy upper crust, celebrity culture, and green energy naivety.

An attractive young British journalist wins a competition to observe the cogs and wheels of government in 10 Downing Street. She is shocked by the craziness and corruption she sees. She goes to bed with the charismatic but clearly unhinged Prime Minister. She is embroiled in a cover-up when the Prime Minister murders a member of parliament in his office. She writes her experiences up in a secret journal which she sends to a trusted party as 'insurance' with instructions that it be released in the event of her unexpected death.

Some weeks later she is approached by a young man wanting 'dirt' on the party fixer who organised the cover-up. She hints she could provide that, in return for an introduction to her celebrity idol -- a wayward socialite and a young woman similar in age and looks to herself -- who he knows. She meets the celebrity first at a nightclub then at her parents' country house. In an eye-opening and emotionally exhausting weekend there (she takes part in a fashion shoot and a porn film, and has various sexual adventures) she is recruited into an informal band of spies by the party fixer, who is another house-guest. She also gains further dangerous knowledge -- requiring a second secret journal -- a list of the famous men the celebrity had slept with.

A few months later the party fixer gets her a job as live-in PA to the new Chief Government Scientific Adviser, warning her not to sleep with him in the expectation that that is exactly what she will do. He hopes the resulting scandal would stop the scientist's wife, a rising politician, becoming PM herself. Living with sane and normal people at last, the heroine vows to clean up her act, reconnects with her family, reviews her sexual history, and decides to 'follow her heart'. Unfortunately this leads her to develop a crush on the scientist. Believing he was one of the men on the celebrity's list, she convinces herself it would be acceptable to seduce him on a business trip. But she got her facts wrong and is fired instead. All this time floods and oppressive weather have reignited public interest in climate change, and the rival political parties' fortunes look set to hinge on their various crazy green energy plans. On the rebound from the scientist, the heroine becomes the girlfriend of the handsome but shallow leader of the dark horse 'Surprise Party'. At his side she achieves her life's ambition and becomes a celebrity herself, experiencing the privileges, the hassles and the excesses that go with it. The story's climax takes place on the leader's remote farm, when his malicious mother and ex-fiancee terrorise the heroine. Her boyfriend's political hopes are sunk (along with his and other insane 'green' schemes) when it is thought he fails to rescue the heroine from a fire. In fact the party fixer, apparently seeing promise in his wayward agent, has extracted her, and sends her off to Greece incognito. On the plane, unrecognised without make-up, she compares her career as a celebrity to a shooting-star, and plans to correct things in her life -- and write another secret journal.

By the way, doc, that was written out for you -- it's not a cut and paste of any synopsis written before.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

J.R.

That's better. 

Dark comedy. Between your synopsis and your previous post, I'm thinking this is something along the lines of _Burn After Reading._


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Julie... I think mine is space opera... I liken it to Star Wars (A New Hope specifically when Vader was still a sorcerer, and Ben was a wizard). Set way in the future, faster than light space ships and communications... governments at war with each other, post collapse of a galactic empire, rise of magic, interdimensional travel, large overarching plot lines, but the stories are character driven and told from the perspective of local events surrounding people who are swept up in the action. It is definitely NOT hard sci-fi. I do explain the science, and it is all plausible but that is world building not story focus. KBoards member Stacy Calfin said the little she looked at of book 1 felt a bit Young Adult, if that matters. 

Am I right?


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## J. R. Blaisy (Feb 4, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Dark comedy. Between your synopsis and your previous post, I'm thinking this is something along the lines of _Burn After Reading._


Julie,

Thank you very much. I saw _Burn After Reading_ just the other day actually. Yes, though I suppose the difference might be that with that film you're some way into it before you think (assuming you don't know about the Coen brothers) 'Oh, I think this spy story is actually a comedy.' Whereas with my thing you could be some way in before you think 'Hmm, this comedy is actually quite dark.'

So what's a comedy thriller? Or is it a contradiction in terms, under your definition of a thriller? Is it really outdated as a description?


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

VydorScope said:


> *****... I think mine is space opera... I liken it to Star Wars (A New Hope specifically when Vader was still a sorcerer, and Ben was a wizard). Set way in the future, faster than light space ships and communications... governments at war with each other, post collapse of a galactic empire, rise of magic, interdimensional travel, large overarching plot lines, but the stories are character driven and told from the perspective of local events surrounding people who are swept up in the action. It is definitely NOT hard sci-fi. I do explain the science, and it is all plausible but that is world building not story focus. KBoards member Stacy Calfin said the little she looked at of book 1 felt a bit Young Adult, if that matters.
> 
> Am I right?


Well Star Wars is the classic space opera. I can't speak about Stacy's comments since I don't know the context of her comment and a lot of people classify ANYTHING that has a young adult protagonist as young adult. I think the point that bothers me is that you say you are focusing on "local events" where space opera is generally intergalactic in scope. It might help if you actually posted the blurb so I can get a better feel for what you mean.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

J. R. Blaisy said:


> So what's a comedy thriller?


A contrivance of Hollywood. Hollywood does that sort of nonsense all the time.

Do you really think it took long for people to figure out Burn After Reading? I can't imagine someone getting more than ten minutes into it and not realize that something wasn't right lol


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Well Star Wars is the classic space opera. I can't speak about Stacy's comments since I don't know the context of her comment and a lot of people classify ANYTHING that has a young adult protagonist as young adult. I think the point that bothers me is that you say you are focusing on "local events" where space opera is generally intergalactic in scope. It might help if you actually posted the blurb so I can get a better feel for what you mean.


Sure!

Blurbs for the first four:

1 - Enemy of an Enemy: 
Everything seemed to be going Vydor's way, until the Dragon Claw was sent on a rather unusual assignment to investigate a minor incident deep within the Empire's space. That would send Vydor down a path filled with fantastically powerful enemies and extraordinary friends that would obliterate everything he ever understood to be true and threaten the very foundations of the Empire itself.

2 - The Academy: 
The Empire had fallen, and the Imperial Navy was disbanded leaving James with nothing but his nightmares to remind him of the role he once played in The Great War. James must now face his new life in a new era where science and technology must share the stage with sorcery and wizardry, and a new ever-present shadow of evil lurks over the remnants of the once great Empire.

3 - Rise of Shadows: 
In The Enemy of an Enemy, darkness came to the Empire, and magic was born from the bowels of men's fears. The great and mighty Imperial Navy had to face and overcome unspeakable horrors. In The Academy, fledgling wizards were gathered and trained to fight back and keep the light, while the darkness laid in wait, biding its time and silently gathering its forces. Now as warriors of light, those wizards must begin to make a stand against the rising tide of darkness or watch their realm be overcome!

4 - Resurgence of Ancient Darkness 
When Shadow's team healed reality by closing the last tear they paved the way for a new evil, one that has been patiently waiting for its chance to rise again. Shadow must build a navy out of his fledgling Battle Wizards and carry the fight to the enemy before it comes for them. Meanwhile, the old man and his steel-eyed partner are making their own plans, and the peace that once reigned throughout the galaxy has come tumbling down.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

Mcoorlim said:


> I've been having trouble marketing Grief.
> 
> It's a collection of five short stories written around the theme of the kubler-ross stages of grief. "Denial", "Anger", "Bargaining", "Depression", and "Acceptance." Each story's stage is showcased by the protagonist's reaction to the news of the inevitable end of the world. People are rioting in the cities, others are looking for answers in faith, taking out their rage on whomever they blame, contemplating suicide, etc. It's fairly dark.
> 
> It's not science fiction, it's not "post" apocalyptic. "Pre" apocalyptic. It's not a thriller. Just emotional journeys.


Drama or literary, assuming the focus is on the character's introspection during this time of crisis and not what is going on around him. I'm assuming the methodology behind the cause of the end of the world is just a plot device to trigger the character introspection and isn't essential (i.e. it doesn't matter if the end is from the Sun going Supernova or a meteor or a plague or aliens, the end of the world is secondary to the character's reaction to it).


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

VydorScope said:


> Sure!
> 
> Blurbs for the first four:


Let's backtrack a bit now. When you said earlier that you "explain the science" did you simply mean that the magic in the setting works under a set of principals or did you mean that it is based on scientific theory? This is a fundamental difference between fantasy and science fiction. Think about fantasy worlds like Harry Potter or Forgotten Realms or Lord of the Rings. Magic functions under a specific set of rules in all of those settings, but doesn't follow any rules of science. There is a sub-genre of fantasy called "techno-fantasy" or "science fantasy" as it was more commonly referred to in the 60's. A science fantasy is a fantasy in which the magic is interwoven with technology but does not abide by the laws of science. If you are familiar with games like Rifts or Shadowrun, that's science fantasy. Instead of mages uses wands and staves and eye of newt, they are using laptops or lasers or radio waves. But regardless of the equipment, the end result is still firmly fantasy.


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## 68564 (Mar 17, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Let's backtrack a bit now. When you said earlier that you "explain the science" did you simply mean that the magic in the setting works under a set of principals or did you mean that it is based on scientific theory? This is a fundamental difference between fantasy and science fiction. Think about fantasy worlds like Harry Potter or Forgotten Realms or Lord of the Rings. Magic functions under a specific set of rules in all of those settings, but doesn't follow any rules of science. There is a sub-genre of fantasy called "techno-fantasy" or "science fantasy" as it was more commonly referred to in the 60's. A science fantasy is a fantasy in which the magic is interwoven with technology but does not abide by the laws of science. If you are familiar with games like Rifts or Shadowrun, that's science fantasy. Instead of mages uses wands and staves and eye of newt, they are using laptops or lasers or radio waves. But regardless of the equipment, the end result is still firmly fantasy.


So... the science in the books - FTL drive, and etc, all obey all the physics I know and understand (studied physics in college) and should be plausible. I explain some of how that works. Just enough so that it can be understood it works, but not a lot of detail.

The magic in the book is a simply that the magi are able to convert natural energy (from something called the weave) into matter or other forms of energy (we do this today with technology). Other than the source (the weave) and the means (chanting and hand/body motions) it follows the laws of nature best I understand them. There are strict rules about how it works that are being firmed up as the series progresses (well they are firm already, but being revealed more).

Hopefully that is at least as clear as mud....


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2014)

VydorScope said:


> Hopefully that is at least as clear as mud....


Understood. Stick with space opera. ;-)


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Hi Julie,

I asked about the genre of my WIP on another thread and was advised to ask my question on this thread. I wanted to know if my book should be in the women's fiction category, or some other genre such as general fiction. Actually I have two questions about the story.

First question: is the story women's fiction or general fiction?

One-sentence description of the story: Five entrepreneurial women find excitement and danger while investigating organized crime rings for their security company.

The story has elements of several genres: mystery, thriller, espionage (spy) story, romance and Western (more about the Western part in my second question), but would not fit neatly into any of those genres. People told me on the other thread that one important aspect of women's fiction is that it focuses on the emotional relationships between the women in the story. In my story there is not much about the women's inter-relationships. The focus is on how they try to solve the cases, and the story includes the criminals' points of view. There is some emotional tension between two of the women (they are both interested in the same man, one of the criminals) but that is just one aspect of the larger plot.

Second question: should the subplot story set in the Old West be pulled out and published as a separate book? It would fit squarely into the Western historical fiction genre.

Description of the Western: An abandoned frontier wife works as a saloon girl and cowhand while traveling the West searching for her missing husband.

My co-authors and I wrote the Western sub-story because our women investigators went undercover as actors in a cable TV Western miniseries, so they could spy on an organized crime ring operating near the location of the filming. We decided it would be fun to include the actual Western story that was being filmed. We got really interested in it, and we wrote so much on the Western part that we have enough material now for a separate book. (We have written a little over 300K words on the full story, which we plan to publish in sections as a serial. The Western part is at least 90K.)

I don't know what Amazon's rules are concerning the use of a substantial amount of material from one book in another book. We would want to keep the Western subplot story in our original book but also publish the Western as a standalone piece.

Thanks, BB


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2014)

First, everyone should remove the phrase "the story has elements of several genres" from their vocabularies. People confuse themselves by making these claims. Two characters having a romantic relationship does not mean a book has "elements of Romance." It just means two people have a romantic relationship. Just because Glenn and Maggie found each other Sunday doesn't suddenly make _The Walking Dead_ a romance!

Are you familiar with the _No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency_ novels?

If the story is not focused on the interpersonal relationships between the women or their individual personal growth as women, then it is not women's fiction.

Get the Western OUT of the series if it is not related to the series. If you want to plant some easter eggs in the main series that reference the separate Western, that's cool. It can be a very "nod, nod, wink" kind of thing with readers to have the characters "acting" in the screen version of the book, and then have the book published separately. It also lets you create a cross-over universe without diluting the main series concept. The idea is to be subtle, not just cram it into the main series. Realizing that the hieroglyphs behind Indy have R2-D2 and C3P0 on them is geeky cool. Having R2-D2 and C3P0 show up in an Indiana Jones movie would have been disorienting and annoying.

My bigger question is, what is the purpose of including the criminal's point of view? When you are writing a mystery, the point is that the reader is trying to guess whodunit. You take the fun of the mystery away if you've got the bad guys verbalizing their internal monologues. You could be ruining a perfectly good mystery series by cramming too many unneeded POVs into the story.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks, Julie! That is very good advice to think about for the Western part of the story. I was worried all along that it would be too much of a jolt for the readers for us to keep switching back and forth between the contemporary story and the Old West story, since this is not a time travel story. My original idea was that the contemporary story would keep mirroring the Western story, for example, an ambush and shootout in the Western would be followed by a similar ambush and shootout in the "real life" story. But as it happened, the Western story took off in its own direction. (I guess you can tell we are seat-of-the-pants writers, lol.)

About the mystery aspect, the story wasn't intended to be a whodunit. It's more about the challenges the women face in getting evidence on the criminals. Remember the old mystery TV series Columbo? Viewers knew at the beginning of each show who commited the crime and how he did it. The main part of the show was about how Columbo investigated the crime. We are not doing a Columbo-copy thing, but that's the general idea -- the difficult investigation process is the focus, not the identity of the criminal. If you are dealing with a crime ring, especially an international ring, it can be very painstaking to investigate and collect evidence, and to get the target person maneuvered into a situation where you can catch him off guard.

Edited to add: Here's an example of an elaborate campaign to trick a criminal into getting caught: Rudolph Hess the Nazi, captured in Scotland in 1941. 
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-how-nazi-henchman-ruldolf-3026293 about a new book, _Rudolph Hess: A New Technical Analysis of the Hess Flight, 1941 _ by John Harris and Richard Wilbourn. The authors hypothesize that Hess was tricked by a British disinformation campaign into parachuting into Scotland so he could meet with King George VI to discuss a secret peace plan between Britain and Germany. I find this kind of thing fascinating -- the long careful planning and series of actions taken to catch an important criminal. (I have not read the Hess book yet but plan to get it.)

About the inclusion of the criminals' points of view: I see this story as a "whydunit." I am interested in how criminals rationalize the things they do, why and how they got started in their lives of crime. People like fraudster Bernie Madoff, the "Russian mafia" kingpin Vyacheslav Ivankov, various crooked "greed is good" corporate executives, and the characters in the Godfather movies. One of the main characters in our story is a man whose conscience is bothering him about his life of crime. Two of the women investigators get to know him well enough to see how disturbed he is, and they try to convince him to come over to their side, asking him to become a double agent. His interactions with other criminals in his ring influence him to consider cooperating with the women. There is ongoing suspense as to whether he will decide to cooperate, or backslide.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2014)

Bluebonnet,

I get what you are saying. In the case of the one guy who ends up working with the women it may make sense to offer his POV. Just remember that what works in visual media often does not work in print media. Visual media can "get away with" a whole lot more because you have all of the other sensory cues to carry the weight of a scene. Sound effects, music, lighting, the actor's mannerisms and facial expressions. In a movie, you can have those two or three minute scenes where we see the villain and gain valuable insight. 

BUT in print, you have only the written word. And what took two minutes in film time to do can take forty pages in a book. And if you aren't careful, all you end up with are data dumps where you are just giving the reader access to information the protagonist doesn't have.  Just be careful that you remember that you are writing a book, not a screenplay.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi Julie,

Pretty sure I know the answer to this one but will lay it before you as you are far more wise and all knowing in this area than I.  I read this far with great interest. 

So, teens journey to another world, psi powers (not magic), partly set in real world and bleed of characters between worlds.

(YA) Urban Fantasy?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2014)

Chris Northern said:


> So, teens journey to another world, psi powers (not magic), partly set in real world and bleed of characters between worlds.


Urban fantasy is "real world with magic," with a focus on the conflict regarding how magic impacts the world. Psi powers are magic (unless you are using science to explain them in a plausible way). If the teens are using psi powers to travel between worlds, it would be a simple fantasy. (think Harry Potter or Chronicles of Narnia where the children start off in the "real world" and then are transported to the fantasy world). Despite having part of the action happen in the real world, the books are still fantasy.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

This is a useful thread--I'd like to chime in.

I've always had trouble choosing a genre for a Wind out of Indigo, because I wrote it as SF, but it has all the trappings of fantasy. 

1) a lost colony world with no memory of the stars. It's managed to climb back to a 19th-century level of tech. 
2) the story is driven by politics, love, and a peculiarity of the environment. The characters recognize the politics, figure out the love, but only see the environment as magic
3) there are airships, but no corsets, clockwork dogs, or goggles. An oil refinery is a much more significant setting.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2014)

callan said:


> This is a useful thread--I'd like to chime in.
> 
> I've always had trouble choosing a genre for a Wind out of Indigo, because I wrote it as SF, but it has all the trappings of fantasy.
> 
> ...


If the fantastic elements are portrayed as magic, then way do you think sci-fi? It might help if you actually post the blurb, because what you've written doesn't actually tell me anything about the story.


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## callan (Feb 29, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> If the fantastic elements are portrayed as magic, then way do you think sci-fi? It might help if you actually post the blurb, because what you've written doesn't actually tell me anything about the story.


I call it SF because the plot and the setting were derived from vaguely plausible science--but I eventually figured out that literary genre and marketing genre aren't the same thing. With a low-tech setting and characters--bless their hearts--who don't understand what's happening, I knew it gave off a fantasy vibe, so that's where I placed it.

Here's the blurb, which I slanted to fantasy:

She'd been a king's mistress and a king's spy. Now, with the Summerlands at peace and her royal lover lost to her, all Alice Standish wants is a bit of quiet. But the new queen sees her as the perfect tool to bring down the rebellious warden of Night. Forced to marry him and exiled to the dark side of the planet, she can only come home once she finds evidence that condemns her husband to death.

But Alice is determined to play her own game, and in the haunted, wind-blown marshes of Night, she discovers not only that her new husband is not what she's been told, but there is another, inhuman power on this planet...

... and it has its own plans for her.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Urban fantasy is "real world with magic," with a focus on the conflict regarding how magic impacts the world. Psi powers are magic (unless you are using science to explain them in a plausible way). If the teens are using psi powers to travel between worlds, it would be a simple fantasy. (think Harry Potter or Chronicles of Narnia where the children start off in the "real world" and then are transported to the fantasy world). Despite having part of the action happen in the real world, the books are still fantasy.


That´s a pretty important "if," which I should have spotted as ´fuzzy making´ and clarified right off the bat (sorry about that). They are not using Psi powers to travel, though the travelling is a consequence of the use of Psi powers by another, previously making a bridge - making the entire pocket universe/world, in fact. So that makes the pocket universe a part of the real world, so real world with magic is right?

The spin is all real world with hidden stuff going on. Think Tier World, maybe, which is clearly SF despite fantasy trappings. Totally agree that Psi unexplained is basically magic by another name, the difference being that the limits are sufficiently strongly implied that the rules need little explanation. As I use a good deal of mythological trappings, dressing up Psi as magic fairly deliberately and not doing anything much in the way of explaining how Psi works, fantasy is more right than not. Or so I think.

I was thinking of this as SF dressed up as fantasy, in the real world despite hidden stuff going on...


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

I think for both Callan and Chris, it would be helpful to reread the summary of the different genres to help clear away the mud.

Fantasy: Magic and the supernatural are the primary motivators of the plot, presented within a self-contained world. Such books do not rely on pseudo-science to explain the existence of the supernatural, and tend toward very clear "good versus evil" tropes.

Fantasy Sub-genres (not an exhaustive list):

Epic Fantasy: A Fantasy novel that takes place exclusively in a parallel or invented world. Plots normally involve world-impacting events and grand struggles against supernatural, evil forces.

Sword and Sorcery: Darker, gritter fantasy with a high focus on action/adventure. The Hero's quests are of a more personal nature instead of world-impacting nature.

Urban Fantasy: A fantasy novel set in an urban environment, usually focused on the conflict between humans and a supernatural force and how this conflict impacts the urban setting.

Science Fiction: Focuses on *fantastic but logically plausible creatures and technological developments while looking at the consequences of such developments*. It is generally defined as writing *rationally about alternative possibilities*. The difference between Hard and Soft Science fiction is defined in terms of how much attention to detail is placed on the science being presented.

Sub-genres (again, not exhaustive):

Apocalyptic: Focuses on the end of the world, almost always through some form of technology gone horribly wrong (nuclear war, virus, etc).

Cyberpunk: Near future dystopian story primarily focused on the struggles of reluctant anti-heroes.

Space opera: A type of science fiction where the primary focus is more on action and adventure and less on the hard science behind the story.

Steampunk: Defined by the placement of advanced technology in a past time period, usually the 19th century, and how such technology might have changed life in the time.

Pay special attention to the part that I highlighted regarding sci-fi. At its heart, sci-fi examines the impact of technology on culture and society. It generally focuses on the CONSEQUENCES of science, for good or ill, on the human condition. It asks "what if?" questions of how humanity uses technology and how those decisions change us. Sci-fi is NOT just about rocket ships and lasers. Think about your book in those terms.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

How does paranormal in a real world, today, environment affect genre?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Sapphire said:


> How does paranormal in a real world, today, environment affect genre?


Paranormal is generally a "Qualifier" statement. A paranormal thriller is STILL a thriller and follows all of the norms of the thriller genre. It will just have a supernatural character in it. A paranormal romance is still a normal romance and the same expectations are there as any other romance. But the main characters might be ghosts or something. It serves the same function as saying "erotic fantasy" (it is STILL a normal fantasy, but there will be graphic sex scenes in it) or Historical romance (It is STILL a romance, but it is set in a historical time period). People reading an erotic fantasy still expect the book to follow the norms of fantasy and don't expect the book to be 300 pages of erotica. And people who read a historical romance don't expect it to read like "historical fiction".

examples of qualifiers:

Paranormal (involves something supernatural)
Futuristic (set in the real world at an unspecified but relatively close future point)
Erotic (contains graphic sex)
Historical (set in a time period other than the modern era)
Romantic (the story has a strong romantic element, but the romance is not central to the plot and does not follow the norms of the romance genre)

Qualifiers don't change the core genre. They provide additional information to a reader of a special element within the book.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for those clear, concise definitions of the genres, Julie. That really helps me with some of my confusions in trying to tell science fiction from a version of fantasy.


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Hi Julie! I'm going to be launching a serial in the coming weeks, and I could really use some help on its placement. Because I just don't even know, lol!

Each episode is novelette sized, and there are several storylines going on, much like you'd see in a TV drama like Mad Men (in tone and format, not so much in content). Some episodes will lean more toward one storyline over others, and then rotate between them throughout the season. 

Most characters are around 20-25 years old, but I'm not inclined to call it NA. My writing, characters, and plots are nothing like other NA books I've read. 

This is all set in 1985. 

Couple #1: this storyline, I think, is a contemporary romance. Young couple are sort of engaged, conflicts happen, much angst, but they're constantly working to bring the relationship back together. HEA eventually. Both the girl and guy have secondary plots that would be women's fictiony, but the romance plot is the center. 

Girl #2: a 16 year-old girl coming of age and falling in love as a lesbian. This one is a lovely and very romantic coming-of-age love story, but it's not a romance. 

Girl #3: sister of girl #2, dealing with drama and eventually family issues. She's prideful and nasty and kind of makes her own chaos. Drama, I guess, though that's not a real category on Amz. Where do dramas go? 

Boy #4: thinks he's in love with girl from couple #1, but he's really kind of a stalker. He befriends the girl to get close to her, which into seasons 2 & 3 maybe makes their romance kind of a romantic suspense? But boy #4 has his own storyline too, dealing with trying not to be a creeper (psychological something or other?). 

Girl #5: sister of boy #4, keeping secrets for him because he's caused some trouble, not just with girl #1, but other girls before. She has her own relationship issues too, but her story is mainly about the angst of burying her brother's secrets.  

Okay, so my questions then: 
- where do I put these things? 
- when a particular episode leans more strongly toward one storyline over others, should I put that episode in a different category and vary the keywords? Like for example, when girl #2's story is prominent, put it in lesbian fiction? Or when couple #1 are prominent, contemporary romance? Or boy #4 in, I don't know, psychological something?  
- Or should I decide on a common ground and put them all in the same place all the time? 
- does 1985 still count as contemporary fiction? 

Thanks!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

> does 1985 still count as contemporary fiction?


As a child of the 80's, I'm not quite ready to call the period "historical" just yet!

Since all of the stories interconnect, you want a single classification for everything otherwise you risk alienating readers. Is there a reason you don't want to include it under just drama, since that is what you are mostly describing. General fiction - > Drama

The reason why we call "general fiction" general fiction is precisely because most books really are NOT genre-specific. A lot of stuff is simply the day-to-day lives of characters and how they interact with the world. It's why general fiction tends to be the largest section of most bookstores. It is a perfectly good category in which to place books.


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## quiet chick writes (Oct 19, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Is there a reason you don't want to include it under just drama, since that is what you are mostly describing. General fiction - > Drama


I'd be perfectly fine with that, except that I don't want them to end up in "Literature & Fiction > Drama & Plays", because it's such a tiny category and doesn't seem to be where people go looking for books. So if I select "General" under the fiction tab on KDP, what category will that end up in? I see General fiction on the KDP interface, but not on the Amazon navigation bar.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Laura Rae Amos said:


> I'd be perfectly fine with that, except that I don't want them to end up in "Literature & Fiction > Drama & Plays", because it's such a tiny category and doesn't seem to be where people go looking for books. So if I select "General" under the fiction tab on KDP, what category will that end up in? I see General fiction on the KDP interface, but not on the Amazon navigation bar.


But the advantage of a small category is that it is easier to get into the bestseller list and then be able to say you are a bestseller! I'd have to go look at the KDP interface contemporary fiction option under general fiction.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Andrew Butcher said:


> Hi, *****.
> 
> I posted my comment just before the thread went on to 15 pages, so you might not have noticed it. I'd really appreciate your opinion on the genre of my series.
> 
> Thanks for your time on this. =]


Don't make me go looking for it! (I'm lazy like that) Just go ahead and repost your blurb and let's start there.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm losing the will to live, and will be going for a beer any second now.

Julie, your response read to me as ambiguous, a mere statement of the difference between fantasy and urban fantasy. Hence my attempt to clarify. It's clearly either one or the other. I knew that. Which do you think? I already know what I think.

You also drew my attention to Callan's question. That's a grey area, isn't it? Darkover is mostly considered to be SF and Pern is almost always considered to be Fantasy. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a judgement on it unless I'd read the work. Could go either way, couldn't it?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Chris Northern said:


> You also drew my attention to Callan's question. That's a grey area, isn't it? Darkover is mostly considered to be SF and Pern is almost always considered to be Fantasy. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a judgement on it unless I'd read the work. Could go either way, couldn't it?


Therein is the problem. I can't make the determination for you without reading the book. I can only explain the differences based on what you tell me. The fundamental difference between different fantasy sub-genres is the overall theme, not plot, of the book. Urban fantasy tends to be rather dark and gritty. It approaches the conversation about magic in the same way sci-fi looks at science: what are the repercussions of magic and how does it impact the culture? In a traditional fantasy, the magic is simply an accepted part of the setting (at least, to those who are aware of it). In urban fantasy, you have a great deal more tension between the powers of magic and those without magic. That conflict is often the focus of the book, how the mundane world adapts to the introduction of magical elements. Urban fantasy tends to be "locally" focused, but asks big questions that transcend the plot. So in your case it is a matter of theme and focus that will determine the genre. if it is a straightforward "characters unlock special power and can access a magical world" then it is a fantasy. If you are examining the repercussions of how magic would influence the real world and the conflict that entails, it would be urban fantasy. But I can't split that hair for you without reading the book.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Andrew,

No force choking required. Dark contemporary fantasy would be my immediate thought. I wouldn't call it urban fantasy (see my previous response to Chris). But I have no issue with the paranormal suspense category (see my earlier response to Sapphire.) 

See, that was painless, wasn't it?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Andrew Butcher said:


> Thank you, *****! Entirely painless, and I'm glad to find I'm alive ... Are you sure you're a Sith? =P


Of course I'm Sith. Don't you see my avatar? That photo was taken at a family gathering last week...


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Andrew Butcher said:


> Anyway, this is off-topic! Haha.


Star Wars is ALWAYS on topic!

But I solo'd my Imperial Agent and Sith Warrior to 50 and more often than not I solo with my other toons. I don't really care about the flashpoints all that much except for a couple that are heavy lore.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Hi, Julie,

Could I get a breakdown of the differences between urban fantasy and contemporary fantasy?

I'm having a hard time classifying a fantasy story of mine, so I'm hoping you can help. (Help me, Obi-Sith Genrobi. You're my only hope.)

I haven't written the blurb yet because I usually try to peg the genre in the blurb, so not knowing means no blurb.

The setting is a small town (i.e. not urban) in the modern-day US where there's a long history of Spiritualism. Everyone who lives there has heard stories about spirits. Not everyone believes the stories, especially newcomers, and only a select few can actually see the spirits. 

The main characters in the town have names that suggest mythological figures, and the name of the town suggests an otherworldly connection (e.g. Avalon). Dora, for example, runs a cafe called The Box.  When the true nature of the spirits is finally revealed, they are things like Naiads, kelpies and banshees, and yes, the Greeks and the Celts hang out together in this one.

The mood is darkish, with an off-camera child murder and a drug addict who gouges her eyes out. The ending is sad, but uplifting - a noble sacrifice and a life rebuilt after tragedy. The themes are about charity and what happens when greed and darkness fester in a person's heart.

This is not a police procedural - everyone knows who committed the murder, and I don't think it's a mystery, either. 

The spirits aren't ghosts, so I don't think it's a ghost story.  The spirits are faeries, so possibly this is a faerie story, but spirits and faeries are paranormal, so.... Ay, caramba, what the heck am I writing?

I think it might be contemporary fantasy or urban fantasy, but I'm not sure of the difference. Maybe it's contemporary urban fantasy, but I'm not entirely sure what that is, either. 

Thanks in advance!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Kary,

If you read my last reply to Chris' question, that may help you. The primary thing with urban fantasy is that the theme focuses on that conflict between the mundane world and the magical powers. What you are describing sounds like the TV show Once Upon a Time, which is firmly contemporary fantasy.


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## KaryE (May 12, 2012)

Thanks, Julie.  I've read back a few pages, plus I've been following this thread on and off since it started, but I still wasn't clear about the difference between urban and contemporary fantasy.

I'm inferring here, so a modern day fantasy that does *not* focus on magical/mundane conflicts is contemporary fantasy?


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

KaryE said:


> Thanks, *****. I've read back a few pages, plus I've been following this thread on and off since it started, but I still wasn't clear about the difference between urban and contemporary fantasy.
> 
> I'm inferring here, so a modern day fantasy that does *not* focus on magical/mundane conflicts is contemporary fantasy?


In general, the difference between contemporary fantasy and urban fantasy often boils down to the source of the conflict. Originally, "urban fantasy" specifically referred to a fantasy set in an urban setting (so even a fantasy story set in the Forgotten Realms city of Waterdeep, population one million, would be considered "urban" fantasy), but over time the definition has shifted a little as our cultural use of the word "urban" has evolved. Urban fantasy, as I said, is very much like science fiction in that it examines the IMPACT of magic on the nature of culture and society. If you think about a lot of popular urban fantasy, it often has underlying themes of what it means to be human. That struggle to identify humanity often pops up in urban fantasy, even if it is only an undercurrent.


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank you.

Can I send this to my publisher?

I've seen them do weird stuff... not sure why. Rankings are not created equal.

Sent from my LG-VM701 using Tapatalk 2


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

And will someone please take the dragons out of the scifi!!

Sent from my LG-VM701 using Tapatalk 2


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2014)

Eva Lefoy said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Can I send this to my publisher?


Oh ye gods, I know. I swear I think sometimes people just shove books in any old category and don't even care. Though I often think sometimes Amazon is more to blame than the publishers. Amazon sometimes does things all on their own based on "also boughts" that have led to some rather...peculiar...search results in some categories.


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## Chris Northern (Jan 20, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Therein is the problem. I can't make the determination for you without reading the book. I can only explain the differences based on what you tell me. The fundamental difference between different fantasy sub-genres is the overall theme, not plot, of the book. Urban fantasy tends to be rather dark and gritty. It approaches the conversation about magic in the same way sci-fi looks at science: what are the repercussions of magic and how does it impact the culture? In a traditional fantasy, the magic is simply an accepted part of the setting (at least, to those who are aware of it). In urban fantasy, you have a great deal more tension between the powers of magic and those without magic. That conflict is often the focus of the book, how the mundane world adapts to the introduction of magical elements. Urban fantasy tends to be "locally" focused, but asks big questions that transcend the plot. So in your case it is a matter of theme and focus that will determine the genre. if it is a straightforward "characters unlock special power and can access a magical world" then it is a fantasy. If you are examining the repercussions of how magic would influence the real world and the conflict that entails, it would be urban fantasy. But I can't split that hair for you without reading the book.


Excellent clarification. Always good to see a fine and disciplined mind at work. Wish I had one. 

Surprisingly - too me, at least - I see that the genre choice was far more finely balanced on that sharp edge than I thought. But Urban Fantasy it is, by a whisker.

Cheers.


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

I hope it's not an issue I'm resurrecting the thread? (Still reading all fifteen pages of it.)

My genre situation is this:

A young girl with a birth defect, meets a boy dying of cancer that teaches about everything having beauty. A young boy who is a painter, thinks he is seeing the devil's henchmen, but could it all just be a dream? A young girl who keeps a mouse for a pet, becomes the mouse's pet. A young girl moving into a strange home, discovers it is inhabited by a girl that can become mouse at will--along with her strange cat. A young girl meets a spirit of dead girl that haunts a dress she bought at the renaissance fare. And finally a young girl who hates green veggies, meets a fairy that turns her into a green veggie.

All flash fiction stories intertwined together on the theme of nature's beauty, the perception of reality by you, and how reality itself perceives you.

That's about as straight forward as I can come up with.:/

Adding is that I intended it as a generational middle grade.


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## Guest (May 28, 2015)

LWFlouisa said:


> I hope it's not an issue I'm resurrecting the thread? (Still reading all fifteen pages of it.)


Magical Realism 

Folks tend to assume that if something paranormal happens, a story MUST be fantasy. But that isn't true. A lot of magical realism has the feel of folklore or a fable, and in fact the genre has its origins in such. Essentially, magical realism comes from a place where it is assumed that there is something naturally mysterious about reality and the natural world and seeks to tap into that.Often in magical realism, there may be a question regarding whether or not something magical actually happened, or if it was just the protagonists perception of what happened.


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## NotHere (Jan 21, 2015)

Hey that makes sense! Cause I always loved the magically mysterious in the every day.

I guess I'll see how this work turns out. This one is particularly weird, as it's less about fantasy and more about the weirdness of the every day: choosing to count in evens, because the father cant remember his odd numbers. A mother who only orders paintings in odd numbers, because she has a fear of evens. And a cat who reads books on philosophy. When I revise it, I'm going to plot based around a family as I usually do.

This is the weirdest project I ever wrote.:/


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## O. Oliver (Dec 10, 2014)

I've got one, if it's not too much trouble.

A continent is left isolated from the outside world, and thus while the continent is a medievalist in technology and social structure, the outside world is much more technologically advanced. Also, while the continent only has humans the outside world has a wide variety of sentient creatures from mythology (centaurs, harpies, dragons etc.)

The book takes place solely in the continent and the outside world is only hinted at. The inhabitants of the outside world politely invade the continent in order to prevent a prophecy that says a seal will break and release powerful godlike beings who will reek havoc on the world. Magic exists in the form of super-powered humans, and, spoiler alert, these godlike beings are really super technologically advanced aliens, but again it's only hinted at and not explicitly explained.

So I'm pretty sure this is mostly a fantasy and I intend to label it as such, but would it be worth to call to attention the science fiction aspect if there are only minor hints at it?


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## Guest (May 28, 2015)

O. Oliver said:


> I've got one, if it's not too much trouble.
> 
> A continent is left isolated from the outside world, and thus while the continent is a medievalist in technology and social structure, the outside world is much more technologically advanced. Also, while the continent only has humans the outside world has a wide variety of sentient creatures from mythology (centaurs, harpies, dragons etc.)
> 
> ...


It sounds like a straightforward fantasy. The existence of aliens or advanced technology does not make a book sci-fi in and of itself. If you read my blog post at the beginning of the thread, you'll understand what I mean. So no, I wouldn't hint at a "sci fi aspect" as that aspect is only nominal to the plot.


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## Chad Winters (Oct 28, 2008)

Eva Lefoy said:


> And will someone please take the dragons out of the scifi!!
> 
> Sent from my LG-VM701 using Tapatalk 2


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Julie, this thread has appeared again just in time for me. My new novel, which is on its final read through (I hope) needs a category/genre. My usual books are historical romance, so this is a departure and one with whose genre I am struggling. 

The heroine is an historian who falls in love with a man who shares her interests. They attend medieval theme weekends and jousting re-enactments together, they like old fashioned ideals, ethics and morals so it follows that a medieval wedding and honeymoon is just the thing. Cara (the heroine) believes she is being whisked away to just such an event, but it doesn't take long before she realises that this island is not a theme for people to spend their holidays; it is in fact a real place, owned by the new husband, with its own laws and is firmly fixed in the sixteenth century, even down to the public executions and an outbreak of bubonic plague.

It is not historical, or fantasy, or paranormal in any way. It is, I suppose, a mystery/thriller type of thing but I am still not sure where to classify it. It is called Old Fashioned Values.


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

I would call it surprise horror. Romance fans aren't going to like that, though, so I think you should categorize it as horror.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

I have a tricky one.

Overall, the series is space opera, but the first book is how the main character gets into the space opera world. It involves parallel universes etc.

Can I legitimately class the first book as space opera if there's no space?!


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

Chad Winters said:


>


*slaps forehead*

what is the world coming to?


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

Doglover said:


> but it doesn't take long before she realises that this island is not a theme for people to spend their holidays; it is in fact a real place, owned by the new husband, with its own laws and is firmly fixed in the sixteenth century, even down to the public executions and an outbreak of bubonic plague.
> 
> It is not historical, or fantasy, or paranormal in any way. It is, I suppose, a mystery/thriller type of thing but I am still not sure where to classify it. It is called Old Fashioned Values.


Time Travel Romance

or Fantasy Romance


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

Barnaby Yard said:


> I have a tricky one.
> 
> Overall, the series is space opera, but the first book is how the main character gets into the space opera world. It involves parallel universes etc.
> 
> Can I legitimately class the first book as space opera if there's no space?!


Some critics distinguish between space opera and planetary romance.[13] Where space opera grows out of both the Western and sea adventure traditions,[citation needed] the planetary romance grows out of the lost world or lost civilization tradition.[citation needed] Both feature adventures in exotic settings, but space opera emphasizes space travel, while planetary romances focus on alien worlds. In this view, the Martian, Venusian, and lunar-setting stories of Edgar Rice Burroughs would be planetary romances (and among the earliest), as would be Leigh Brackett's Burroughs-influenced Eric John Stark stories.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Eva Lefoy said:


> Time Travel Romance
> 
> or Fantasy Romance


But it's not time travel and it's not fantasy. This place is real and it requires no magic or science to get there. It is also not a romance, since the romantic part goes sour very quickly and there is certainly no happy ever after.

What is surprise horror? Never heard of that.


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## Eva Lefoy (Jan 25, 2014)

okay it might not be a romance, i wasn't sure. but fantasy it is. it's not reality i hope!

how about this?

Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic and filmic works that combine fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread.[

Dark fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic and filmic works that combine fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread.[

or how about gothic fantasy?

gothic horror?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Eva Lefoy said:


> okay it might not be a romance, i wasn't sure. but fantasy it is. it's not reality i hope!
> 
> how about this?
> 
> ...


It could be reality, though. That is why I am reluctant to put it in fantasy. If someone were wealthy enough and had their own island and they and their ancestors had never allowed science to develop, and there is no 'rest of the world' to compare with, it could happen. Nothing modern. The first chapter is on my blog, still working on the rest. Thanks for your advice; I will think about dark fantasy.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Eva Lefoy said:


> Some critics distinguish between space opera and planetary romance.[13] Where space opera grows out of both the Western and sea adventure traditions,[citation needed] the planetary romance grows out of the lost world or lost civilization tradition.[citation needed] Both feature adventures in exotic settings, but space opera emphasizes space travel, while planetary romances focus on alien worlds. In this view, the Martian, Venusian, and lunar-setting stories of Edgar Rice Burroughs would be planetary romances (and among the earliest), as would be Leigh Brackett's Burroughs-influenced Eric John Stark stories.


Hmm... Thanks for this.

My series is the journey of one character through various SciFi tropes.

He starts on earth, now, then travels to a steam punk kind of world, then for book two travels into the future and then it's space opera, but only humans. Book three he meets aliens, they sort of invade. Book four will be some sort of time travel paradox thing.

I guess it's all just SciFi, but as they are comedy novels with adventure, they all feel like space opera.


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## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Doglover said:


> *****, this thread has appeared again just in time for me. My new novel, which is on its final read through (I hope) needs a category/genre. My usual books are historical romance, so this is a departure and one with whose genre I am struggling.
> 
> The heroine is an historian who falls in love with a man who shares her interests. They attend medieval theme weekends and jousting re-enactments together, they like old fashioned ideals, ethics and morals so it follows that a medieval wedding and honeymoon is just the thing. Cara (the heroine) believes she is being whisked away to just such an event, but it doesn't take long before she realises that this island is not a theme for people to spend their holidays; it is in fact a real place, owned by the new husband, with its own laws and is firmly fixed in the sixteenth century, even down to the public executions and an outbreak of bubonic plague.
> 
> It is not historical, or fantasy, or paranormal in any way. It is, I suppose, a mystery/thriller type of thing but I am still not sure where to classify it. It is called Old Fashioned Values.


I'm assuming this is set in the real world and there are no magical elements. Just a wealthy sociopath who bought an island outside U.S. jurisdiction and made his own little country? Sounds like it could be a psychological thriller.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Could be psychological, yes. Thanks.


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## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Eva Lefoy said:


> Time Travel Romance
> 
> or Fantasy Romance


Eva,

Fantasy, by default, requires a magical or supernatural element. If there is no magic, even low-magic, it isn't fantasy. She also isn't time traveling. She said they were just going to an island where the new husband runs everything as if it is the 16th century. They didn't move to the 16th century.

The reason I said psychological thriller and not horror is the assumption that the novel is not surrounded by an overwhelming sense of terror and isn't specifically about an overwhelming sense of dread. With a thriller, the focus is on building the tension as the antagonist's plans become clear to the hero and the hero has to figure out how to stop him/her. With a thriller, there is the building of tension as the plot moves forward to the climax. There is a difference (often ignored) between having a scene that is scary versus building an entire book around the concept of building fear.


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## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Barnaby Yard said:


> I have a tricky one.
> 
> Overall, the series is space opera, but the first book is how the main character gets into the space opera world. It involves parallel universes etc.
> 
> Can I legitimately class the first book as space opera if there's no space?!


You aren't really saying enough. The primary question would be do you approach the concept of parallel universes in a logical, rational manner or is it hand-waved like magic? The concept of parallel universes exists both in fantasy and sci-fi, the difference is in how they are handled. In a fantasy, the parrallel setting is reached through magic (portal, ritual gone wrong, etc). In sci-fi, it is a matter of scientific principles.

ASSUMING you are taking the rational, scientific approach to the parallel universe, you can call the first book a space opera so long as the heroes actually end up in space . But you need to make sure EVERYTHING in your book sets up the story in such a way that the actual jump to the parallel universe makes rational sense and doesn't feel "like magic." If you spend the entire story with the characters in the "real world" and they stumble across some random artifact that wisks them off to another realm...probably going to tick off sci-fi readers (space opera is a sub-genre of sci-fi, so it still needs to follow the norms of sci-fi insofar as being focused on the rational application of science and technology.)


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> You aren't really saying enough. The primary question would be do you approach the concept of parallel universes in a logical, rational manner or is it hand-waved like magic? The concept of parallel universes exists both in fantasy and sci-fi, the difference is in how they are handled. In a fantasy, the parrallel setting is reached through magic (portal, ritual gone wrong, etc). In sci-fi, it is a matter of scientific principles.
> 
> ASSUMING you are taking the rational, scientific approach to the parallel universe, you can call the first book a space opera so long as the heroes actually end up in space . But you need to make sure EVERYTHING in your book sets up the story in such a way that the actual jump to the parallel universe makes rational sense and doesn't feel "like magic." If you spend the entire story with the characters in the "real world" and they stumble across some random artifact that wisks them off to another realm...probably going to tick off sci-fi readers (space opera is a sub-genre of sci-fi, so it still needs to follow the norms of sci-fi insofar as being focused on the rational application of science and technology.)


Thank you... I think I might be screwed then!

The science is based on real science, but the execution is iffy to say the least!

This is comedy first and foremost though.

What would you classify HHGTTG as?

Or 'The greatest show off earth'?


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## Guest (May 29, 2015)

Barnaby Yard said:


> Thank you... I think I might be screwed then!
> 
> The science is based on real science, but the execution is iffy to say the least!
> 
> ...


HHGTTG is generally considered "science fantasy" because it is, technically, a fantasy story that masquerades as science fiction  It is,alas, often labeled sci-fi by people who assume "outer space = sci-fi" but it really is more fantasy than sci-fi when you look at the actual tropes employed and the themes involved. Though even the publisher gets lazy and just lumps it under sci-fi (even large publishers get this stuff wrong!)

Unfortunately, I don't think Amazon recognizes that sub-genre, which is really the larger problem. Doesn't help to know your genre and not be able to use it. So you probably need to use "space opera" but then put "science fantasy" and "humor" in your keywords to hopefully hit the right searches. or you may want to use "science fiction==> Adventure"


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> HHGTTG is generally considered "science fantasy" because it is, technically, a fantasy story that masquerades as science fiction  It is,alas, often labeled sci-fi by people who assume "outer space = sci-fi" but it really is more fantasy than sci-fi when you look at the actual tropes employed and the themes involved. Though even the publisher gets lazy and just lumps it under sci-fi (even large publishers get this stuff wrong!)
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't think Amazon recognizes that sub-genre, which is really the larger problem. Doesn't help to know your genre and not be able to use it. So you probably need to use "space opera" but then put "science fantasy" and "humor" in your keywords to hopefully hit the right searches. or you may want to use "science fiction==> Adventure"


Sorry, only just seen this.

Makes total sense.

I'm going to be at the forefront of a new genre... Science fantasy.


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## L.B (Apr 15, 2015)

Oh, and thank you again...


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## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Doglover said:


> What is surprise horror? Never heard of that.


It is horror disguised as something else, but in the end, it is really horror. It is not a selling category, but rather an editorial category. Not really helpful, I know. Go with what Julie said, psychological thriller.


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