# What makes a 100k author?



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

A survey by Writtn Word Media on what makes a 100k author. Interesting in light of some perennial discussions here.

https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/2017/06/07/100k-author/

I will point out that these are general statistics, and of course anybody can point to Author X who does her own covers or Author Y who made it to 100k on two or three books. (Or one.) I personally fall on the "wrong" side of about half of them. But it's a good basic list of commonalities. Most of it will seem like common sense, but it's good to see it laid out.

In brief: (but the article has cool graphs and much more info)

1. Time. 100k authors have generally been writing longer--3+ years.

2. Indie: most 100k authors answering were indie or hybrid. (Of course we can all point to megawatt tradpubbed folks. Again, general rule.)

3. Wide or KU isn't a divider--100k people can be either.

4. Covers: pro covers. $100-1000 in general.

5. Editing: pro editing, mostly $250-1000.

6. Paid marketing.

7. Less likely to have a day job. (Obviously)

8. Work more hours and have more books out.

(Me again.) I've been interested lately in the divide between people who do well for a while and the people who keep doing well after 5, 10, 15 years as this industry keeps changing. The big things I see are

1. Continuing to work hard and get books out. Lots of people do well then sort of stop or slow way down.

2. Smart decisions and calculated risk taking: venturing into other media and platforms, new series, new subgenres or genres to build an audience.

3. Adapting to the market. I don't see some of the big names anymore who were killing it with very short stuff for KU1. Other folks shifted with the market. Still others (I'd be one of those) write less trendy and create their own market in a way. People like Jana DeLeon and Penny Reid--two authors I admire who've done things very much their way and succeeded hugely.

4. Strong voice and author brand.

I'm sure other people can think of things I've missed. Interesting to think about.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> I've been interested lately in the divide between people who do well for a while and the people who keep doing well after 5, 10, 15 years as this industry keeps changing. The big things I see are
> 
> 1. Continuing to work hard and get books out. Lots of people do well then sort of stop or slow way down.
> 
> ...


Good article, thanks for sharing it.

I'm interested in the longevity as well. Lately I've noticed that a couple authors I follow who did well with short works are not sustaining it. 
I think you've discussed before how you've found your niche and you know how to write for your fans & I find that advice quite valuable. I'm trying to emulate you in that respect. I've branched out with a few other things in the past and haven't been happy with the results. It seems like when I consistently write to my niche audience, though, things get better every month. I think I am going to go balls to the wall for the next 8-12 months and focus on my niche market & reassess from there.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I'm working on those four things now. I'd love to be a 100K author, though I'd be perfectly content to support my family and buy a house. &#128522;

I've had health issues slow me down in the past -- grr -- but I keep coming back, and I think that's what's important. Even when I can't release anything, I stay in touch with my readers.

I'd decided to focus on romance and suspense, but lately I've drilled down. I'm writing in f/f romance and another subgenre that I'll be shouting to the world soon.

I'm far from an expert on this, but I think it's important to find a balance between the market and what you love. Personally, I'd exhaust myself if I tried catching every trending wave that rolled in. Chris Fox's advice in _Write to Market_ was a gamechanger for me, because previously I stubbornly kept writing outside of genre, just riding the waves of whatever story popped into my head. Now I've learned how to combine my ideas with market research, and even reverse-engineer and build a story around tropes.

One thing I think I've nailed is my voice and brand. I have readers who will faithfully insta-buy everything I publish because they love my voice. It's happened over years rather than something I did intentionally, but I'm still really proud of that. Now if only I could clone those readers into an army, I could have my 100K career. &#128579;


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

elizabethbarone said:


> I'm working on those four things now. I'd love to be a 100K author, though I'd be perfectly content to support my family and buy a house. &#128522;
> 
> I've had health issues slow me down in the past -- grr -- but I keep coming back, and I think that's what's important. Even when I can't release anything, I stay in touch with my readers.
> 
> ...


Good luck! It sounds like you have an excellent plan - you did your research, found an under-served but hungry genre, and are reverse-engineering the best-sellers. IIRC, Annie Bellet said that she reverse-engineered the hottest sellers in her genre, and was rewarded with a series that exploded out of the gate. Sounds like you have the fundamentals down to get into the 100K club.

Me, I was a member of the 100K club for two years. I can trace my success back to one thing - BookBub. Yeah. That's about the extent of it. I had two BookBub ads a year for two years in a row, and they blew.the.roof.off.the.house - all four of them. Then I became persona non-grata with them, and I stumbled completely.

Now, I'm trying to get back in with a much better, more sustainable path that doesn't rely on the caprices of one site. I really want to take control of my own destiny. I'll see if it works.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I found the difference in hours spent writing was really telling. Six-figure authors work a lot harder, and had an average of 30 books in their backlist. It seems to correlate with my experience. The harder I write, the more my income goes up.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Chris Fox said:


> I found the difference in hours spent writing was really telling. Six-figure authors work a lot harder, and had an average of 30 books in their backlist. It seems to correlate with my experience. The harder I write, the more my income goes up.


To be fair, six-figure authors are also much less likely to have a day job. People who earn less aren't necessarily working less--they may just have less time to spend writing and marketing.


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## lincolnjcole (Mar 15, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> To be fair, six-figure authors are also much less likely to have a day job. People who earn less aren't necessarily working less--they may just have less time to spend writing and marketing.


Really great and useful information! Thanks so much for sharing this and I agree with your analysis.

I would be terrified to do any of this if I actually had to _make_ money!


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm a six figure author as of this year, and I have a full time day job and I only have 12 titles right now. (13 if you count an anthology.) I'm a long way from figuring out how to sustain it. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if I can succeed by following my bliss and writing only what I feel like writing.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

GeneDoucette said:


> I'm a six figure author as of this year, and I have a full time day job and I only have 12 titles right now. (13 if you count an anthology.) I'm a long way from figuring out how to sustain it. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if I can succeed by following my bliss and writing only what I feel like writing.


And you remain an inspiration to this full-time day jobber and full-time writer.


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## Morgan Worth (May 6, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> To be fair, six-figure authors are also much less likely to have a day job. People who earn less aren't necessarily working less--they may just have less time to spend writing and marketing.


That's a good point. It's important for us to work hard, but it's also important to remember not to be too hard on ourselves!


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for posting Rosalind.

I write so much less than the typical 100K   But I think I'll get there as my backlist grows. Slow and steady may not win the race, but I'll still get to the finish line.

I hope you're right about people who branch into different genres, I'm about to do that soon. So far, a lot of my fantasy audience has followed me into sci-fi ... apparently I get emotions right,  and I'm funny, and that's what they really like.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

C. Gockel said:


> Thanks for posting Rosalind.
> 
> I write so much less than the typical 100K  But I think I'll get there as my backlist grows. Slow and steady may not win the race, but I'll still get to the finish line.
> 
> I hope you're right about people who branch into different genres, I'm about to do that soon. So far, a lot of my fantasy audience has followed me into sci-fi ... apparently I get emotions right, and I'm funny, and that's what they really like.


Some of that may be my own prejudice showing. Personally, writing different things makes me a better writer and broadens my base in the long term, I believe. Other authors will cite evidence that dancing with the one what brung you is a much better success strategy. It's probably down to personal preference in a lot of places--if you can write the same kind of book and keep your readership and yourself engaged. (I don't think I could.)


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Morgan Worth said:


> That's a good point. It's important for us to work hard, but it's also important to remember not to be too hard on ourselves!


I work 4 days a week, 32 hours and get 3 off in a row. On my days off I put in 30 hours, so I it's almost full time. I just squeeze it all into 3 days. I realize to get to the next level I probably need to go full time and do 50-60hrs a week, so I save my royalties. I should have a years worth of wages in the fall and then I'll quit in time to enjoy the holidays. For me that's the best way. I want enough money in the bank not to worry about market shakeups, which do happen from time to time.


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## Benjamin Douglas (Aug 1, 2015)

Rosalind started a thread!

*Gets ice cream*
*Reads and rereads posts already in said thread from all the kboards gods; smile upon me, ye gods*
*finger hovers over refresh button for the foreseeable future*


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

ebbrown said:


> I think I am going to go balls to the wall...


I don't really think you can do that, can you?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LMareeApps said:


> I'm not an established writer (I've been published a whopping 2 months), but my goal isn't necessarily to work harder, but rather to work more efficiently and effectively. I suspect writers who have consistently maintained a 6-figure income over time have developed practices, routines, habits etc that serve them far better than my 'okay, so what am I going to do next?' approach.


Haha, well, not me, but I'm sure SOME of them have.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> To be fair, six-figure authors are also much less likely to have a day job. People who earn less aren't necessarily working less--they may just have less time to spend writing and marketing.


This is very true. There is a ceiling on how much most people can work during a day and keep is sustainable. I would love to focus more time to writing, but unfortunately I work 9-5 and it's just not feasible to really do much more than I do. I manage about 1k words a day though, which I think is pretty solid.

But yeah. I have days where I write more, obviously. But the way I look at it, it's better to have an achievable and sustainable workload then forcing oneself to overload themselves and burn out. Might make success come a little slower, but probably makes it more realistic.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I made six figures in year 2 and most of it was due to book 4. I did an analysis of the top selling indies in my chosen category (erotic romance) at that time and wrote my own version and that did it. Books 1 - 3 were low sellers by comparison.

My first year, first 3 books:



My second year with 4 books: Book 4 earned $97K and Books 1 - 3 the rest.



So it's important to remember when looking at averages that they are a fiction. They give you and overall idea of things. There is no guarantee that writing 30 books will earn you 100K. I know of authors with 15 and 20 books that do not sell. I know of authors with one book that earn six figures and more.

It's the book. The more you write, the better chance you have of writing a great book that earns six figures, but writing more is not a guarantee.

There are no guarantees.

Study your craft, work hard and work smart. Those are keys to setting yourself up for success.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

sela said:


> I made six figures in year 2 and most of it was due to book 4. I did an analysis of the top selling indies in my chosen category (erotic romance) at that time and wrote my own version and that did it. Books 1 - 3 were low sellers by comparison.
> 
> My first year, first 3 books:
> 
> ...


Very true. Averages can be deceptive. Averages aren't individuals. As I said, I only fit about half of those criteria myself. Sometimes, you do hit just right and get that traction from the beginning that makes everything easier. I didn't study, I think I just knew the market of women like me and wrote something appealing. I DID know it was appealing. I knew it was a great idea. That's what I'd claim from my own success.

There isn't much "fair" about this business, but there are some truths. I think most people would agree that pro covers, pro editing, steady work habits, and regular releases (which don't have to be every month) are pretty basic success elements. That doesn't mean you WILL succeed in getting to the 6-figure mark. It means you've given yourself your best shot.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> Very true. Averages can be deceptive. Averages aren't individuals. As I said, I only fit about half of those criteria myself. But much of the advice--pro covers, pro editing, steady work habits--is pretty basic.


I agree and should have added that for my first three books, I got a free edit from a family member. I did get pro covers. The books were not written to market. They were a mishmash of 2 categories and satisfied readers of neither. 

Book 4 was written to market. It had a pro edit and pro cover. It is still my big earner.

I have 13 full length novels, 3 novellas and 3 short stories (I think) published. I get everything professionally line edited and proofread. I buy professional covers. I pay for advertising. I write for about 20 hours a week. I work on my business about the same amount of time, so a 40 hour week.

I always advise new authors to put out the very best product you can. Beg borrow or steal (not really!) so you can get pro covers (even premade for $35 - $50) and get someone to -- at minimum -- proofread you work. You have to compete with the top sellers for visibility. Treat yourself like a pro. Pros get pro editing and pro cover design. They work hard. In the end, the rest is up to the book and how well the author tells the story.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

sela said:


> I made six figures in year 2 and most of it was due to book 4. I did an analysis of the top selling indies in my chosen category (erotic romance) at that time and wrote my own version and that did it. Books 1 - 3 were low sellers by comparison.
> 
> My first year, first 3 books:
> 
> ...


I think it's important to avoid suggesting that writing a good book to market is all it takes to have a hit. It's usually enough for a book to do well, but not always. I've had books die on release then later be resurrected by good promo or repackaging. With any individual book, there is a certain x factor the author can't control

Thankfully, over enough books, luck tends to even out. You don't need any hits to make 100k/year if you put out enough books with enough marketing. I've been at six figures since last year and I've only had one book I'd call a hit. But I've got 11 novels out right now (plus two bundles, three unpublished novels, and one unpublished novella).


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

In general, I agree with those findings but there will always be those whose journey to six figures is very different. I haven't stopped working in over three years. A week here and there but it's a profession that requires constant attention. If I'm not writing, I'm marketing or formatting or answering emails. I didn't technically have a day job when I started but I do have a family and two kids under 7 so my writing time is compressed into a few hours a day. Only a rare few can publish one or two books and hit the big time.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> I think it's important to avoid suggesting that writing a good book to market is all it takes to have a hit. It's usually enough for a book to do well, but not always. I've had books die on release then later be resurrected by good promo or repackaging. With any individual book, there is a certain x factor the author can't control
> 
> Thankfully, over enough books, luck tends to even out. You don't need any hits to make 100k/year if you put out enough books with enough marketing. I've been at six figures since last year and I've only had one book I'd call a hit. But I've got 11 novels out right now (plus two bundles, three unpublished novels, and one unpublished novella).


You're right and if I suggested that you need a hit book written to market to make $100k, I didn't mean to. You don't have to have a hit to make $100k. You can have two dozen low selling books. Or a medium hit and a dozen low sellers. Or three moderate hits. Etc.

For me, it was book 4. That doesn't mean every person who writes book 4 will make $100k. Nor do you need a hit. There are many paths to $100k but few will make the trip.

Simply writing 30 books will not guarantee you will make 100k. Paying for a pro edit and pro cover will not ensure you earn 100k. You can write 30 crappy books and make no money. You can spend a fortune on covers and editing and still flop. That old saying that you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig is true.

Storytelling matters.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

LMareeApps said:


> Just got around to reading the actual article. It appears to have ruffled the feathers of quite a few editors.


Seriously. I'm a professionally trained editor and some of those comments make me embarrassed for my colleagues. I thought this post was spot-on, though.



> ...It's not devaluing an author's work to say 250 is fine, it's being realistic to a proportional average return. There are people who are making 40k paying their bills with their writing, and 2k a book isn't realistic for them. Saying "well, they shouldn't publish then," is frankly horrible when there are even errors in books put out by the big five (or six if you count Harlequin which is synonymous with the romance genre).
> 
> The average reader's not going to catch nor care about run on sentences, comma splices, garden path sentences (most don't even know what this is), etc. That's not to say editors aren't necessary, but the price point is the difference between Moet and Stella Rosa. It might be nice to get Moet, but most people can't afford to drink it-and Stella Rosa is 13 a bottle and the average person can't tell the difference.


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## CABarrett (Feb 23, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> Seriously. I'm a professionally trained editor and some of those comments make me embarrassed for my colleagues.


Just out of curiosity, when one poster says they're a trained CMOS editor, is that just Chicago Manual of Style? Or some sort of governing body?

It seems clear that the survey design doesn't appear to distinguish between different types of editing services, and that's contributed to the angst in the comments. Like this comment, I would guess that the $250-$500 range represents authors buying less than the traditional multi-stage edit.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

CABarrett said:


> Just out of curiosity, when one poster says they're a trained CMOS editor, is that just Chicago Manual of Style? Or some sort of governing body?


It's just the style guide. A lot of editors use it as their basis for work, but there's not a certificate or official organization to join. Anyone can grab a copy of CMOS and say they're a trained editor. Sorta like how anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves a literary agent. An editor could join ACES or EFA, but like most professional orgs, they're not really necessary.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Interesting that a lot of people in the comments don't seem to see the difference between making $100K gross or net. I'd assume that if you talk about $100K that would their net profit per year, but it isn't actually spelled out in the article. I am sure there are writings grossing over $100K a year but barely breaking even after paying for fb ads etc.

I found it interesting that a lot of successful authors handle marketing themselves. I'm in a couple of fb groups where it seems like everyone has a VA. A lot of the same people talk about how hard it is to break even on their writing. TBH, I think a lot of people just like to be able to say they have a VA


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> Good luck! It sounds like you have an excellent plan - you did your research, found an under-served but hungry genre, and are reverse-engineering the best-sellers. IIRC, Annie Bellet said that she reverse-engineered the hottest sellers in her genre, and was rewarded with a series that exploded out of the gate. Sounds like you have the fundamentals down to get into the 100K club.
> 
> Me, I was a member of the 100K club for two years. I can trace my success back to one thing - BookBub. Yeah. That's about the extent of it. I had two BookBub ads a year for two years in a row, and they blew.the.roof.off.the.house - all four of them. Then I became persona non-grata with them, and I stumbled completely.
> 
> Now, I'm trying to get back in with a much better, more sustainable path that doesn't rely on the caprices of one site. I really want to take control of my own destiny. I'll see if it works.


I would love to get a Bookbub but I feel the same and don't want to rely on just them. I never want all of my eggs in one basket (though I'd definitely be grateful for that basket).

It sounds like you've got a pretty solid plan, especially from your other threads. I've been rooting for you!


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

sela said:


> You're right and if I suggested that you need a hit book written to market to make $100k, I didn't mean to. You don't have to have a hit to make $100k. You can have two dozen low selling books. Or a medium hit and a dozen low sellers. Or three moderate hits. Etc.
> 
> For me, it was book 4. That doesn't mean every person who writes book 4 will make $100k. Nor do you need a hit. There are many paths to $100k but few will make the trip.
> 
> ...


Yes, I had a similar experience. My first three books were far off genre and they lingered in the red forever. My fourth book was the one to do well (technically, it was a serial). But it wasn't that it was my fourth book. It was that it was the first one I wrote to market. Some people are naturally in the head space of a genre and don't have to try to write to market. I had a very different idea about fiction than hitting genre tropes, mostly because of my screenwriting background (the mentality is opposite-- novelty and surprise are emphasized). It took a lot of work for me to reconcile writing to market and writing what I want.

That book is not my best work, but I think it turned out pretty good. The cover was on-point but not necessarily beautiful. The editing left something to be desired (I did pay someone, but typos remained). But the serial floundered for a while, even with price promotions, until I got some opportunities to get it in front of a lot of people. Even if you write the most commercial book in the world, with the greatest cover and blurb imaginable, you still need visibility. If you're a new author, without a list, that's difficult, especially in crowded genres. At a certain point, you do have to believe in your book. And then you have to get the next one out there.

If you can write six books a year, you only need each book to make 20k in its lifetime to hit a five figure salary. I'm sure that sounds like a lot to new authors--it is a lot--but that's reasonable in big, commercial genres, especially if you have a series you can advertise in a multitude of ways.

I write slightly less commercial stuff now. I'm in a smaller niche I love, so I don't have to work too hard to think about making my books commercial. But romance has gotten more competitive, even in the last year, so I constantly need to do different stuff to advertise. (I'm biggest on FB ads and AMS, and slacking a bit on price-promotions lately). The main thing I'd take out of the article is that you never *get* to the big leagues. Even if you have a hit and make 300k (or more) one year. You still have to keep working to grow and build and get your books out there. The biggest authors are the ones who advertise the most. (Not applicable to everyone, but as a trend, the authors who make more tend to spend more on marketing and PR).


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

kathrynoh said:


> Interesting that a lot of people in the comments don't seem to see the difference between making $100K gross or net. I'd assume that if you talk about $100K that would their net profit per year, but it isn't actually spelled out in the article. I am sure there are writings grossing over $100K a year but barely breaking even after paying for fb ads etc.
> 
> I found it interesting that a lot of successful authors handle marketing themselves. I'm in a couple of fb groups where it seems like everyone has a VA. A lot of the same people talk about how hard it is to break even on their writing. TBH, I think a lot of people just like to be able to say they have a VA


My VA is HootSuite. &#128514;

It'd be nice to have an assistant eventually, but I can't justify the expense yet.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

elizabethbarone said:


> My VA is HootSuite. &#128514;
> 
> It'd be nice to have an assistant eventually, but I can't justify the expense yet.


It would be nice but as well as the expense, there's the whole thing of finding time to work what you want them to do and how you want them to do it


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I found it interesting that a lot of successful authors handle marketing themselves. I'm in a couple of fb groups where it seems like everyone has a VA. A lot of the same people talk about how hard it is to break even on their writing. TBH, I think a lot of people just like to be able to say they have a VA


I actually make less than 100K and have hired a PA for some things. I have heard from a lot of 100Kers that their income growth has stalled even though they have more books out. I think it's because there is just so many hours in a day, and they have tons of books, but not the time to market them.

I have six series leads ins that I can advertise ... but I just can't get to ALL of them every month. By end of year I should have nine series lead-ins, plus a standalone that will be my responsibility to promote. I'm definitely not going to be able to manage them all. My plan is to to do all the higher level strategy, the AMS ads, and the FB, BookBub CPMs, plus the BookBub feature deal submissions, but I'll have her book the regular ads in the future based on a schedule I provide. This will cut down on ROI for those titles, but I think raise profits overall.

That's my plan anyway!

Lately, I've been using her to help manage acquisitions for box sets--tracking down authors for their stories, blurbs, and such. It has saved me hours of work, and the price is worth it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think there are all kinds of ways to do this job. 

I barely spent anything for the first couple years, and I don't spend tons now. I do agree that the biggest names in this genre do quite a lot of advertising and also put books out fast--much faster than I do. It's most important to me to write what I like and do the things that please me (which is writing books). I don't advertise much, but Amazon does some for me. I don't cross-promote, because I always forget to do my part or mess it up, I've found. I don't do boxed sets because like I said--no ideas. People say "write a short story for a reader magnet, or a novella for a boxed set," and I'm like--write what now? I have no idea if I could write a short story, let alone what it would be about. 

And I'm having my best year ever although I haven't released since February, oddly enough. I've made mid-six figures the past three years, but this year, it looks like it'll be high-six. Doing it "my way" probably means I won't make seven figures, but I have pretty much most of the material things I could want, and I'm not young. At this point, I'll take "happy life" over "get to the top." Would it be nice to be an eight-figure author? Sure. But I want to keep writing what I like and doing what I like and taking chances. 

So that's me. Everybody's different. Everybody has a different path to this point. Trad, trad then indie, indie then trad, releasing two books a month or one every six months, studying the market and tropes and writing strictly to that or writing from the heart and hitting the target almost accidentally. That's what strikes me. The diversity of 100K authors' experiences. As the article says--those authors spend a lot of time working, and they have pro covers and well-edited books. Beyond that, the paths diverge. 

Thank you to others for sharing their paths.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

I enjoyed the article. The conversation on the link is different than this one, which is interesting. It's only been a few months since I started publishing (not writing tho) so the information in the article gave me hope. Thank you.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Rosie A. said:


> I enjoyed the article. The conversation on the link is different than this one, which is interesting. It's only been a few months since I started publishing (not writing tho) so the information in the article gave me hope. Thank you.


The comments on the article are mostly focused on editing cost, which I'm sure does vary wildly depending on whether an author does all the steps (developmental, copyediting, proofreading) or just one or two of them. Developmental is the most expensive. My Montlake DE, for example, charges $2K for one round of developmental and line editing on an indie project. (That's a reduction from her rate for three rounds for Montlake.) I've only done that on one indie project, although I've learned a ton through working with her on five books.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I actually make less than 100K and have hired a PA for some things. I have heard from a lot of 100Kers that their income growth has stalled even though they have more books out. I think it's because there is just so many hours in a day, and they have tons of books, but not the time to market them.
> 
> I have six series leads ins that I can advertise ... but I just can't get to ALL of them every month. By end of year I should have nine series lead-ins, plus a standalone that will be my responsibility to promote. I'm definitely not going to be able to manage them all. My plan is to to do all the higher level strategy, the AMS ads, and the FB, BookBub CPMs, plus the BookBub feature deal submissions, but I'll have her book the regular ads in the future based on a schedule I provide. This will cut down on ROI for those titles, but I think raise profits overall.
> 
> ...


I can't wait until I can justify hiring a full-time or part-time marketing and PR person. I've never done well unless I advertised heavily (of course, well is relative. I could probably clear six figures without much advertising if I released 5-6 books/year, but I want to hit mid-six figures), but I do not enjoy doing CPC ads. Setting up a free run or KCD isn't too bad. It takes an hour or two, max. But CPC ads suck up time and mental energy like no one's business. I've tried working with contract ad people, but we always end up parting ways after a while.

I can't wait until I can manage to find an actual employee, who will be responsible for managing my ads, a Chief Marketing Officer, if you will. I'd rather spend more time writing.



Rosalind J said:


> I think there are all kinds of ways to do this job.
> 
> I barely spent anything for the first couple years, and I don't spend tons now. I do agree that the biggest names in this genre do quite a lot of advertising and also put books out fast--much faster than I do. It's most important to me to write what I like and do the things that please me (which is writing books). I don't advertise much, but Amazon does some for me. I don't cross-promote, because I always forget to do my part or mess it up, I've found. I don't do boxed sets because like I said--no ideas. People say "write a short story for a reader magnet, or a novella for a boxed set," and I'm like--write what now? I have no idea if I could write a short story, let alone what it would be about.
> 
> ...


In my experience, getting Amazon promotions makes a huge difference. If only I could have a Kindle Monthly Deal every month. *Sigh*

Most of the marketing we do is aimed at kicking in Amazon's visibility algos. If selling more books didn't get you more visibility, most CPC marketing would be deep in the red. It's hard to make a profit with CPC ads when you're selling one book that nets you $2-4. It gets easier if you have a series, but you still need Amazon boosting your visibility to see serious profits.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Rosalind J said:


> The comments on the article are mostly focused on editing cost, which I'm sure does vary wildly depending on whether an author does all the steps (developmental, copyediting, proofreading) or just one or two of them. Developmental is the most expensive. My Montlake DE, for example, charges $2K for one round of developmental and line editing on an indie project. (That's a reduction from her rate for three rounds for Montlake.) I've only done that on one indie project, although I've learned a ton through working with her on five books.


How are you defining developmental? Is it more of a very substantive edit? When I've had developmental they were much less expensive but I think we may be talking about different things. What I had done is also called a content edit--basically the editor reads the book then sends notes on how to make it better, areas that are confusing, need expanding, more conflict, etc. Usually a letter of a few pages.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> How are you defining developmental? Is it more of a very substantive edit? When I've had developmental they were much less expensive but I think we may be talking about different things. What I had done is also called a content edit--basically the editor reads the book then sends notes on how to make it better, areas that are confusing, need expanding, more conflict, etc. Usually a letter of a few pages.


The developmental editing I've had is a letter plus line editing. The editor actually takes only 3-7 days to get it back to me (and that's on a 110K book), but there is line editing.

She is pricey, but she was an acquisitions editor for one of the big romance lines and is well known. As I said, she's helped me become a better writer, so my Montlake experience was definitely helpful in that way.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Seriously. I'm a professionally trained editor and some of those comments make me embarrassed for my colleagues. I thought this post was spot-on, though.


Wine is my hobby. I have some very fine wine, but I bought a bottle of Stella Rosa yesterday. It's actually pretty good. I drink it all the time.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Wow. There are some VERY perturbed editors on there.

I feel for them; I really do. It's the end of an era.

A couple of key things have changed around editing since I first started writing back in the '80s. For most of the years since an author's entire career might span as many as 6-10 books. But that was a LOT!! Ten books - my god, you'd done a book a year for a DECADE! You were doing really well to accomplish that. Most writers never got past 3-5. A scant few hit 12+.

Well, many decades ago, a famous editor talked about the first *MILLION* words of a writer's career being their apprenticeship. Those first million words were the beginner crap. They were rife with errors in storytelling and needed a lot of editing work to improve them. Masterwork writing was something expected of people with more than a couple million words of storytelling completed.

What changed was the pace. Once upon a time, it took a dozen years at one 80k word novel a year to break that million words. In other words, under the old system *virtually no author ever left that apprentice stage*.

Enter Kindle and the indie writing revolution. Today, many people hit that million words in just a couple of years. Writing 4-6 books a year is common now. Writing 12 in a year isn't weird. Writing 36 in a year isn't unheard of anymore. The world has changed. Most of those $100k+ writers being spoken of in the article have a LOT of books out. The mean is 33. At that stage, the typical writer doesn't need a dev edit anymore. (She might want one; that's an entirely different story. Every writer makes their own calls on this stuff.) At that point, there are very few developmental/content editors capable of editing a work better than the author already wrote it. It's like handing a John Williams score to a typical composer and asking for improvements.

The $250-500 is what people are paying for typo correction, which is usually all an author needs at that stage of the game (33 books out). Frankly, I think even that is going to fade. The tools for spotting typos continue to improve year by year. They're not perfect, but I suspect within five years tools like Grammarly will match the average human copy editor for effectiveness. At which point that $250-500 is going to go down to "I pay my VA $25 to run the book through a grammar/typo tool".

I say all this having *been* a pro editor once. It's really the end of an era. Circumstances have made it so that people can publish without comprehensive edits even as a novice; the ones who continue to practice eventually improve to the point where they no longer need comprehensive edits anyway. Circumstances are changing so that soon even copy edits and proofreading will be something done by computers, not humans.

The editors posting in that thread are scared. They have every right to be. I feel for them. They are feeling now the way I probably will when some fine day 10 or so years from now a book hits the NYT bestseller list that was entirely written by a computer.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

KevinMcLaughlin said:


> Wow. There are some VERY perturbed editors on there.
> 
> I feel for them; I really do. It's the end of an era.
> 
> ...


Yup.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I can't wait until I can justify hiring a full-time or part-time marketing and PR person.


She is a superfan. The most I have ever hired her for is 4 hours a week (at this point.)

They were hours I *really* was grateful for--she herded authors for a recent anthology and also submitted to a lot of free sites.


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

sela said:


> So it's important to remember when looking at averages that they are a fiction. They give you and overall idea of things. There is no guarantee that writing 30 books will earn you 100K. I know of authors with 15 and 20 books that do not sell. I know of authors with one book that earn six figures and more.


That was the strangest part of that survey. Most of the $100K+ authors on Kboards don't claim to have anywhere near 30 books. It is more like 7 or 10 or 15 books. And many of them talk about earning Mid to High six figures, not just a dollar or two over 100K. I wonder if they are counting short stories, novellas and such for that 30 books figure.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

A LOT of romance authors who make day-job money have 50, 80, 100 books out there. A lot of them have also written for tradpub--are hybrid or switched from trad to indie. I'm relatively unprolific with my 23 books in 5-1/2 years of writing. Four books a year is slow in Romancelandia. I write long for the genre, but still.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

D-C said:


> In general, I agree with those findings but there will always be those whose journey to six figures is very different. I haven't stopped working in over three years. A week here and there but it's a profession that requires constant attention. If I'm not writing, I'm marketing or formatting or answering emails. I didn't technically have a day job when I started but I do have a family and two kids under 7 so my writing time is compressed into a few hours a day. Only a rare few can publish one or two books and hit the big time.


This sums up my situation. When I said six-figure authors worked harder, I wasn't trying to be flippant. I'm just shocked that it's so much more work than when I wrote part time with a day job. Marketing, taxes, insurance, writer's conferences, writing, editing, covers, and about two billion other things crop up daily. If I take time off, it feels like I fall behind immediately.

Part of that is that I'm still refining my systems, and hopefully over time it will get easier. For now, I work 60+ hours a week, and rarely take a day off. I make a good living, but the instant I take my foot off the gas I feel the drop in income.

Like Rosalind (and I think a couple others) said, everyone's path is a little different. The hardest stage for me was the last year at my day job. It was maddening trying to run a book business, while also working a challenging job. I know many people here are still in that phase. I have serious respect for you.

It is easier once you go full time, but I thought it would be a LOT easier. It isn't.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

Boy, I totally hear that, Chris. I took time off for wedding prep, getting married, and a honeymoon, and then even MORE time where I was writing slower than usual because I was winding down my day job. As a result my May income took a serious hit (like 40% lower than April). I launched a new book today, and will launch more soon, but I've got to push HARD for the next little while to get caught back up from a month and a half of reduced effort.

And I didn't even take that time *off*. I just wasn't pushing as hard as I could have been. I eased off the gas and saw pretty rapid results. And not in a good way. 

This isn't a 'cry for me' post.  I'm working hard again and will be back up in no time, but it's good evidence that even if you're making solid income from writing now, that won't necessarily last long if you stop paying attention for a little while.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Chris Fox said:


> Like Rosalind (and I think a couple others) said, everyone's path is a little different. The hardest stage for me was the last year at my day job. It was maddening trying to run a book business, while also working a challenging job. I know many people here are still in that phase. I have serious respect for you.


Don't add a baby to the mix any time soon.  Talk about challenging on top of a day job and full-time writing and every other thing.

Thanks for being an inspiration, Chris!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I basically farm out or just don't do everything I hate.  
I also don't go to conferences. I just hide and write.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

elizabethbarone said:


> My VA is HootSuite. &#128514;
> 
> It'd be nice to have an assistant eventually, but I can't justify the expense yet.


I tried to hire a VA three times over a period of six months and finally gave up. And that was after a personal referral to someone who'd done tons of stuff for other authors. I paid, he didn't do the flipping work. So technically, I'm 0 for 4. In the time I wasted explaining and correcting and getting frustrated, I could have done the things myself for free.

I outsource covers to pros, I pay for promotion, and sometimes I pay for proofreading, but I've never had a fraction of the frustration doing those things than with trying to hire a VA. When I'm on the verge of collapse if I don't hire help, I'll try again with a local high school student, or maybe a local aspiring writer who wants a look behind the scenes to learn on the job for their own career.


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## Morgan Worth (May 6, 2017)

Shelley K said:


> I won't even try this nonsense again until I reach a point where I simply cannot do certain things myself or risk collapse. And then I'll probably try to hire someone I know already or someone local whom I can meet in person and train hands-on. A high school student would be better than some of the "professionals" I tried, even with tons of hours of completed jobs on Upwork. *I'd pay my daughter to do it, but she gets most of my money already anyway.*


At least the money you pay her when she works for you would be tax deductible.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Morgan Worth said:


> At least the money you pay her when she works for you would be tax deductible.


True.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

LMareeApps said:


> Plus, by doing the work for you, she helps you make more money you can give her... win/win, really.


There's the matter of her being willing to actually do it, too.  She has a summer job already, alas!

To speak to the findings themselves in the link, I really think the data's like any other data. People will read what they want to into it. People who write 5 hours a week will see that some people can hit it with one book, and that even if not they'll eventually have several books out, which ups their odds. People who write several hours a week will see that the more you write, the better your odds. And maybe I'll write that one book that takes off. It can also be viewed in the negative if someone wants--I can't write 33 hours a week, so I'm probably never going to make it, etc. I can't afford to pay for pro editing or a cover, so I might as well forget ever selling much. It can parsed any way someone wants, because eye of the beholder. And every parsing is correct for somebody. It's Schrodinger's success. It's all in there at the same time.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I actually make less than 100K and have hired a PA for some things. I have heard from a lot of 100Kers that their income growth has stalled even though they have more books out. I think it's because there is just so many hours in a day, and they have tons of books, but not the time to market them.
> 
> I have six series leads ins that I can advertise ... but I just can't get to ALL of them every month. By end of year I should have nine series lead-ins, plus a standalone that will be my responsibility to promote. I'm definitely not going to be able to manage them all. My plan is to to do all the higher level strategy, the AMS ads, and the FB, BookBub CPMs, plus the BookBub feature deal submissions, but I'll have her book the regular ads in the future based on a schedule I provide. This will cut down on ROI for those titles, but I think raise profits overall.
> 
> ...


So much this. I think we spoke about this before. There are only so many hours and only one author to manage it all. I've definitely reached a point where a PA makes sense but I'm also a control freak and having a PA just seems like paying for a service I can do myself. But I can't do it and write more. So I'm struck in a spiral of needing help but not wanting to pay for it &#128541;


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> I basically farm out or just don't do everything I hate.
> I also don't go to conferences. I just hide and write.


Yes THIS. Except for the writing part.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

sela said:


> Simply writing 30 books will not guarantee you will make 100k. Paying for a pro edit and pro cover will not ensure you earn 100k. You can write 30 crappy books and make no money. You can spend a fortune on covers and editing and still flop. That old saying that you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig is true.


Gordon Ramsey put it well, he said *"You can't polish a turd."*

I always think of that when I'm spending money on a cover re-vamp or on another re-write. I ask myself, am I trying to polish a turd?


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

All these discussions of personal assistants and virtual assistants... I have an adult daughter who is free and would probably be willing to assist for pay, but to be honest, I don't even know what I'd tell her to do.


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## kemobullock (Aug 18, 2015)

Me too, Gene. That and I like being in control of everything regarding my work. Except for audiobook reviews. I would happily let me son review those but he's got a heavy workload this semester.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Honestly, I know more authors who have fired VAs than have a good one and I don't personally know anyone with a VA doing their marketing. No one knows the product like the author or the market (unless they are also an author). Add to that they need to know how to design graphics, all the rules associated with the advertisers, how to do FB ads and make them effective, how to write add copy, and so on. It's a really hard niche for a person to fill. That's why most of the authors I know still do their own ads. They might farm out graphics, but that's usually it. 

My husband quit his job a couple years ago to assist me full time and he does do business items, including graphics. But the bigger value is in all the personal stuff he takes care of. Basically, anything except writing ad copy, writing books, uploading, and accounting is him. That means food, laundry, housekeeping, vehicle repair, dogs to vet, managing contractors/repairs, scheduling all my appts. doctors, hair, nails, etc. The amount of time/stress he eliminates from me by taking care of all that daily stuff is invaluable. I always suggest that when people have a limited budget for help, they start with hiring domestic help rather than a VA. 

I have two VAs. One does Twitter. The other creates my story Bibles. What little advertising I do, I write myself and set up. My husband does the graphics.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

I'm keeping a sharp eye on my seven-year-old. As soon as she shows signs of being able to design a website I'm putting her to work.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

Having a PA/VA has been invaluable. I know I make more money because of her because she frees up time for me, and time is the most important thing. My husband (who was able to quit his corporate job in Dec '15 because of my writing) does all my financial stuff and that's super helpful as well.

When you get to a certain income level, it seems the only way to get above that is to be more than one person. Having help becomes a necessity, but like Jana said, there are certain things you just have to do yourself.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

Lydniz said:


> I'm keeping a sharp eye on my seven-year-old. As soon as she shows signs of being able to design a website I'm putting her to work.


  

Would I love to have a VA? Definitely - but I know myself. I'd probably end up micro-managing them.


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## RBC (Feb 24, 2013)

Loved the read... was surprised that average number of books was 30! I thought it would be less. But it's good to see that hard work pays off!


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## SidK (Jul 7, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> A LOT of romance authors who make day-job money have 50, 80, 100 books out there.


WOW!  Mind Boggles.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I'm keeping a sharp eye on my seven-year-old. As soon as she shows signs of being able to design a website I'm putting her to work.


I'm already teaching my four-year-old to use Photoshop and Pixelmator.

You have to earn your keep in this family. I let the dog live because she cleans the kitchen floor.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

D-C said:


> So much this. I think we spoke about this before. There are only so many hours and only one author to manage it all. I've definitely reached a point where a PA makes sense but I'm also a control freak and having a PA just seems like paying for a service I can do myself. But I can't do it and write more. So I'm struck in a spiral of needing help but not wanting to pay for it &#128541;


You can't scale up without paying for things, even things you can do yourself. There's only one of you. It takes money to make money. You pay for proofreaders (you should, if you're doing well) even though you probably proofread just fine. It leverages your time.

You need to divide your income from books into, say, a 2000-hour work year, and see how much per hour you are making. Then ask yourself if paying someone a fair wage will free you to make more of that rate with your own time, probably by producing content.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> When you get to a certain income level, it seems the only way to get above that is to be more than one person. Having help becomes a necessity, but like Jana said, there are certain things you just have to do yourself.


I like to do anthologies, and find them to be about the most helpful thing for my career. However, there is a lot of administration that goes into them; a VA is perfect for that sort of thing.

Also, although I'd never use help for FB ads or BookBub CPM, if you have a set blurb at 50 words, another at 250 characters, a VA can take over the submission process.

I may also send her all my UPS receipts for the year. I hate scanning those damn things in for our tax records.


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## RinG (Mar 12, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> Gordon Ramsey put it well, he said *"You can't polish a turd."*


Interestingly, mythbusters proved that you could!

Of course, it takes a lot of work, and if you're going to go to all that effort, might as well start with a a good product so you end up with an even better one!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I make six figures. I don't have a VA. I spent less than 1600 last year on advertising. 95% of the money I make comes from 8 books.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Lydniz said:


> I'm keeping a sharp eye on my seven-year-old. As soon as she shows signs of being able to design a website I'm putting her to work.


Why wait? That kid is 7! Just give them a laptop and put them to work.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I make six figures. I don't have a VA. I spent less than 1600 last year on advertising. 95% of the money I make comes from 8 books.


You are an outlier. Consider yourself fortunate, rather than an example of the norm. Most indie authors spend a much higher percentage of their income on marketing and other business costs.

I do know one author that has simply "caught on," and he wonders why I work so hard. There is an element of luck in this business. If you have it, be grateful.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

David VanDyke said:


> You are an outlier. Consider yourself fortunate, rather than an example of the norm. Most indie authors spend a much higher percentage of their income on marketing and other business costs.
> 
> I do know one author that has simply "caught on," and he wonders why I work so hard. There is an element of luck in this business. If you have it, be grateful.


I don't think I'm an outlier. I focus on what works for me. Advertising doesn't work well for me (other than Bookbub). Writing good books works (though due to illness etc I'm fairly slow compared to some with my releases), paying attention to passive marketing like covers etc works for me. So I do those things. I'm not an outlier anymore than someone who does something differently and gets good results is, imo. I think a lot of the time people spend a lot of effort on things that don't return nearly the results they think they do.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> I don't think I'm an outlier. I focus on what works for me. Advertising doesn't work well for me (other than Bookbub). Writing good books works (though due to illness etc I'm fairly slow compared to some with my releases), paying attention to passive marketing like covers etc works for me. So I do those things. I'm not an outlier anymore than someone who does something differently and gets good results is, imo. I think a lot of the time people spend a lot of effort on things that don't return nearly the results they think they do.


This. I look at the stuff-of-the-moment like the huge mailing lists and the cross-promo and really wonder. I've tried a few things and nothing works as well as simply writing another book and putting it out. I'm in KU because that makes me not have to market much.

Anybody who sells really well is an outlier, however they do it. Not that many people sell really well, and still fewer sell really well over time. The best, very best method I've seen is to write books that continue to sell well over time. But that entails turning your back on the very things that are the most popular at the moment: the shared worlds, writing to trend, writing super fast and short, and so forth.

Different paths, I think.

I "caught on," but I still work really hard. It's just that I work really hard on writing and not the other stuff.


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I don't think I'm an outlier. I focus on what works for me.


You are an outlier precisely because you do what works for you. Most don't, as you yourself argue.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

David VanDyke said:


> You are an outlier precisely because you do what works for you. Most don't, as you yourself argue.


Most people also aren't capable or don't write books that other people want to read in any quantity, so I guess that makes a lot of us outliers. I guess I don't find just saying oh, so and so is an "outlier" that useful because it doesn't tell me what I need to know to make decisions about my business. Data does that. Data like that provided in the original post etc.


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## AssanaBanana (Feb 1, 2014)

I work about 33 hours/week on average, but 11 of those hours are spent on marketing related stuff. 

I have over 30 titles published, yet only earned about $50k last year (last year I averaged about 20 hours/week, counting marketing - I earned more the year before with fewer titles, thanks to KU1.0). The biggest reason I'm not earning more, at least from my own analysis of my career thus far, is that I haven't been consistently getting my butt in the chair, writing books, and publishing them with more than a half-assed marketing plan. I use the Rescuetime app to track my work and last year I excelled at doing unproductive things. This year I'm more productive but it's clear I need to spend even MORE time writing than I already am and be more on point with my marketing. 

The 30 titles I already have published don't mean a damn thing if I don't keep at it and keep my catalog fresh in readers' minds.


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## antcurious (Jun 2, 2017)

Annie B said:


> Most people also aren't capable or don't write books that other people want to read in any quantity, so I guess that makes a lot of us outliers. I guess I don't find just saying oh, so and so is an "outlier" that useful because it doesn't tell me what I need to know to make decisions about my business. Data does that. Data like that provided in the original post etc.


Annie, what genre do you write in, if you don't mind me asking?

Anton


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I think the entire point of articles like the one that began this thread is that any one of us can point to our own efforts and say "this works" and "this doesn't work" and be right, but with entirely too small of a sample size.

I agree with Rosalind and Annie on the basics: write good books people want to read. it's the thing that is both most in the control of the writer and least in control of the writer, because we're all doing our best and sometimes that's not enough.

I've seen this. I think my Immortal series is fantastic, great fun that is "the best" thing I've ever written. But what worked for me was The Spaceship Next Door. That book by itself has been more successful by a couple of orders of magnitude than any of the series books.

I went from fantasy series books to a standalone sci-fi that was clean (no swears) with cross-appeal to YA readers. People want to read the series, and I can build off the series until I run out of ideas for it (which is soon, tbh.) But more people wanted to read Spaceship, and many of them aren't interested in Immortal. Yet every one of my books is the best work I could have done at the time I did it.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2017)

Annie B said:


> I don't think I'm an outlier. I focus on what works for me. Advertising doesn't work well for me (other than Bookbub). Writing good books works (though due to illness etc I'm fairly slow compared to some with my releases), paying attention to passive marketing like covers etc works for me. So I do those things. I'm not an outlier anymore than someone who does something differently and gets good results is, imo. I think a lot of the time people spend a lot of effort on things that don't return nearly the results they think they do.


I think those of us making a certain level of income do have common practices though. That shows in the discussion we've had in the private groups. You know, the cabal we formed to dominate the indie world and keep all the secrets to ourselves, effectively shutting out everyone else?  Though I couldn't imitate you exactly, I'm positive that if I took the framework of your methods and applied them to a system of my own, it would work just fine. I would go further and say that if you looked at my existing methods and compared them to yours, though we would see differences, we'd see enough similarities to connect the dots.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Word Fan said:


> I don't really think you can do that, can you?


It's a favorite and famous fighter-pilot boast. (The balls, in this case, are at the top of the throttle lever.)


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## Brevoort (Jan 27, 2014)

notjohn said:


> It's a favorite and famous fighter-pilot boast. (The balls, in this case, are at the top of the throttle lever.)


Correct. It is an expression from sometime in the Korean War to mean, full-out, maximum effort, Warp Factor Whatever.

It has to do with the design of the throttle and propeller control quadrants in fighter aircraft. In order to go at maximum speed suddenly, one shoves the throttle and prop control levers full forward in the direction of the firewall and engine. "Going all out."

The levers were, and to some extent still are, topped by large balls. In single engine jet fighters there will only be one lever to shove forward, no prop.

There is no anatomical association.


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## William Collins. (Jan 20, 2016)

Great article, thank you for sharing it.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

There is no one path to success because there is no one definition of success.

It really depends on how we, as individuals, define success and our ability to achieve it.

For some, success is being able to buy a house with cash and hiring a pool boy. High six figures or seven figures. Authors who earn high six and seven+ figures are vanishingly small in number if we look at the Author Earnings data. They ARE the outliers, when it comes to the data. They write books that are both popular and successful. They may or may not augment those sales with high spends on promotion and advertising. Whatever the case, if an author is earning mid - high six or seven figures, that's a huge level of success.

For others, success is a dollar figure that allows them to quit the day job and write full time. That may be a part-time income if they have a spouse or partner earning a decent income, or it may be breadwinner income to support a family. Five figures, in other words. Considering the history of the writing profession, a consistent five figure income writing books is amazing. In the history of the profession, only a small number of authors earned a consistent five figures in revenues / advances, etc.

For still others, success is seeing their fiction published and the mere fact that people are reading it, even if not in large enough numbers to allow them to quit the day job and write full time. They may write in very small niches or very different blends of genre / category that aren't as popular and so don't see high sales. Some sales and good reviews are enough to make them feel successful.

For others, success is critical acclaim that comes with awards and not necessarily sales. Lit fiction, experimental fiction, etc. It's art more than craft or business.

The paths to those different levels and measures of success vary depending on the person. Some may be natural writers or natural business people. Others may have to work hard and fight every step of the way.

No one can tell you what success means. Only you can define it.

There are many definitions and measures of success. 

Even if a writer hasn't yet achieved their specific definition of 'success', there is still hope if you work hard and work smart.

Failure is when you stop trying.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

It's not a kboard success/sales thread until someone trots out the term "outlier." I think there should be a rule for kboards on this, like Godwin's Law. I think Amanda Hocking used to be a member here. Maybe we could call it Hocking's Law. Then when people want to imply that a person's information doesn't count because they're too successful, they can simply type "Hocking's Law" in the thread and be done with it.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

sela said:


> There is no one path to success because there is no one definition of success.
> 
> It really depends on how we, as individuals, define success and our ability to achieve it.
> 
> ...


Quoting all of this because it's awesome.  All true.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

antcurious said:


> Annie, what genre do you write in, if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> Anton


I write science fiction and fantasy, lately mainly urban fantasy and adventure fantasy.

And I agree, true failure is when you stop writing at all...but sometimes that's what needs to be done. Just as not everyone can be a doctor or a zoologist or a pro musician, not everyone is cut out to be a professional writer. It's okay to quit, too. And it's okay not to quit.  There are plenty of legit reasons for writing and publishing that have nothing to do with how much money you make or how many readers you have (money and readership are often tied together of course). But in threads like this, we're talking about what people who make a certain amount from their writing might have in common, so I think it is totally appropriate to discuss business tactics and what 100k+ earners do... no?


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

There are definitely outliers, but we have so many of them on kboards that they are just normal    And I like that. I feel it benefits everyone to be able to pick the brains of these so called outliers and to see people joining those ranks. But I don't like the "luck" debate. Sure, luck exists but you absolutely can make your own luck.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

Brevoort said:


> Correct. It is an expression from sometime in the Korean War to mean, full-out, maximum effort, Warp Factor Whatever.
> 
> It has to do with the design of the throttle and propeller control quadrants in fighter aircraft. In order to go at maximum speed suddenly, one shoves the throttle and prop control levers full forward in the direction of the firewall and engine. "Going all out."
> 
> ...


Thank you. KBoardpedia once again . Good one for my annual Christmas quiz .


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Annie B said:


> Most people also aren't capable or don't write books that other people want to read in any quantity, so I guess that makes a lot of us outliers. I guess I don't find just saying oh, so and so is an "outlier" that useful because it doesn't tell me what I need to know to make decisions about my business. Data does that. Data like that provided in the original post etc.


I hate to throw out a word that is probably as offensive to some as "work" or "luck", but I was thinking about it this morning. I received an email from Amazon about Amanda's new book, "Make a Witch". I marvel at the cleverness she displays at continuing to come up with these catchy titles after publishing 20,000 novels. I'm smart but I'm not that clever.

Anyway, the word that we often shy away from on this forum is "talent". We talk about promotions and editing and craft and covers... No matter how great Annie's covers are, she wouldn't sell a truckload of series book 7 unless the previous six satisfied her readers more than all the other writers (me included) in her genre. Mark Twain and Stephen King aren't selling because of their covers. There are tiers of authors, and the cream rises to the top.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Someone whose first book rises to the top or who finds success doing everything against conventional wisdom may be an outlier, but Annie has worked hard for a very long time. A success story doesn't equal an outlier.

Having said that, many people with 8 books that sell, a small ad budget and no help aren't going to achieve the same income, simply because they haven't put down the words or hours before that and/or they're not writing books as good as hers that connect with their audience. It might take more paid promotion/help/whatever and a lot more books to reach the same income, if they _can_ reach it.

Many paths to the same mountaintop, and pretty clearly the foundation of that (and in some cases the only thing really necessary) is writing a lot of words for an audience who wants to read them.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

What looks effortless and natural in others is usually the result of tons of hard work. That's not to say that we aren't all born with varying levels of native ability, but it can be deceptive from the outside to look at someone's polished draft and try to figure out how they reached that point.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> It's not a kboard success/sales thread until someone trots out the term "outlier." I think there should be a rule for kboards on this, like Godwin's Law. I think Amanda Hocking used to be a member here. Maybe we could call it Hocking's Law. Then when people want to imply that a person's information doesn't count because they're too successful, they can simply type "Hocking's Law" in the thread and be done with it.


I don't think anyone said that a person's information doesn't count because they're too successful. No one I can see... When people refer to those who earn high six or seven figures as outliers, they usually mean that they have a certain level of success that most people can never attain no matter what they do.

I never intended to insult the high earners and dismiss their views and opinions and success so if I did, my apologies.

BUT... there remains a harsh reality we all have to face:

There are 4.3M Kindle eBooks for sale on Amazon. Only about 100,000 of those books sell a copy a day on average. Only 10,000 make it on any bestsellers list on Amazon. Only a very small number of authors make six figures in a year. Fewer still seven figures or eight.

Most authors make less than $1000 in a year off sales.

Everyone wants to discover the recipe for success, but the problem is that the recipe is so general and at the same time so specific that it's impossible to write it down.

Some people can do everything "right" and still not sell books. Some people can do everything "wrong" and make a mint. Some writers have innate storytelling and writing and business skills and find success right out of the gate. Some writers have to work hard at their craft for and business for years to get to a point where they can find success.

There is no recipe because even if every single aspiring writer did everything professionally from the get go, only a certain fraction would become six and seven figure earners or win accolades and awards.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

sela said:


> There is no one path to success because there is no one definition of success.
> 
> It really depends on how we, as individuals, define success and our ability to achieve it.
> 
> ...


Yep. My big goal is to buy a house with cash. However, the type of house I want and am currently saving for is only about 60,000k, which will get you a modest but decent house in my area of the country. I can do that simply by continuing to work a regular job and not spend my royalties a while longer. After that, I'm perfectly happy to earn between 3-5k a month, which puts me in the middle class and allows me not to work for someone else anymore because my biggest expense is taken care of. Wealth is not your income. It's your debt to income ratio, so I consider myself very successful to be able to acquire enough supplemental income to buy a house with cash. Other people might say that's nothing.


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## Mike Stop Continues (Oct 21, 2015)

sela said:


> Some people can do everything "right" and still not sell books. Some people can do everything "wrong" and make a mint.


Show me a person who did everything right and didn't sell books. I don't believe that person exists. By the same token, I'm certain that anyone who's making a mint did most of the important stuff right.

Believing in chance disempowers writers from growth, even if it saves them from the truth that they can and must do better.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## nikkykaye (Sep 24, 2016)

sela said:


> There are 4.3M Kindle eBooks for sale on Amazon. Only about 100,000 of those books sell a copy a day on average. Only 10,000 make it on any bestsellers list on Amazon. Only a very small number of authors make six figures in a year. Fewer still seven figures or eight. Most authors make less than $1000 in a year off sales.


I'd suggest that in fact people who are actively engaged in places like kboards are already outliers, in a sense. I think it might have been in an Author Earnings Report, but I thought that the vast majority of self-published authors quit after the "one book" they think they have in them. And sell only a few dozen copies. I'm the prawniest of prawns, never having had a four-figure month, but I have to remind myself that even my "failure" is successful by many people's standards.

Like Rosalind said, success is a subjective construct. I feel successful in that I have the luxury of being able to flop (as I do) without my kids going hungry. But damn, I want the monies! I want the income and the visibility that comes with "success", because in a way it's external validation of the work I've been doing and sacrifices made.

I've tried to write to trend, and I'm not great at it. I can fret and obsess about it, or I can take what I'm learning and apply it to each new release in a positive way. That is a better-paved path to success to me, and hopefully that path will be lined with evergreen trees.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Mike Stop Continues said:


> Show me a person who did everything right and didn't sell books. I don't believe that person exists. By the same token, I'm certain that anyone who's making a mint did most of the important stuff right.
> 
> Believing in chance disempowers writers from growth, even if it saves them from the truth that they can and must do better.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


You're right and I wasn't clear.

Let me revise that and say that they can do everything right in terms of the _business_ side (cover, blurb, categories, etc) but have a book that will not sell due to the story / writing. Some people can do nothing right in terms of the _business_ side but they have a book with a story that is great / compelling and goes viral.

It's not chance. It's a great story well told. The business side -- marketing, promotion, basic business stuff -- that takes a great story well told and makes it more visible so it can sell even more.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

nikkykaye said:


> I'd suggest that in fact people who are actively engaged in places like kboards are already outliers, in a sense. I think it might have been in an Author Earnings Report, but I thought that the vast majority of self-published authors quit after the "one book" they think they have in them. And sell only a few dozen copies. I'm the prawniest of prawns, never having had a four-figure month, but I have to remind myself that even my "failure" is successful by many people's standards.


Add onto that the number of people who are 'gonna write a novel someday' and never do. I'm sure there's some sort of chart in here somewhere:

Number of people who are 'gonna write a novel someday'
Number of people who actually start a novel
Number of people who finish said novel
Number of people who get that novel published, either by tradpub or indie
Number of people who visit or frequent kboards

Progressively smaller subsets of writers, I'd imagine.

We may have 'failed' to enjoy a four-figure month, but our failure puts us in a different category than a whole bunch of writers.

Shoot, for that matter, there are 4 million+ ebooks on Amazon. If just one of your books sells or borrows a copy a week, you're way ahead of the majority of ebooks available on Amazon. How's that for outlier?


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

sela said:


> I don't think anyone said that a person's information doesn't count because they're too successful.


You didn't call anyone an outlier, but someone called Annie one. The problem is that when someone successful gives advice and is dismissed because they're an "outlier" then it leaves little reason for them to give advice again and is also a huge failure on the part of those seeking advice to not study successful authors and see the things that they are all doing. We are all doing certain things.

I stopped posting here for a couple years because every time I did, I got "but you're an outlier" essentially meaning, my viewpoint didn't count or matter to those here. So I figured why post.

The irony is, in every sport, playing with people better than you elevates your game and I've done the same thing with writing/publishing. I try to surround myself with highly successful people because of the energy and ideas they have. It pushes me to work harder/better.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The irony is, in every sport, playing with people better than you elevates your game and I've done the same thing with writing/publishing. I try to surround myself with highly successful people because of the energy and ideas they have. It pushes me to work harder/better.


Over the course of my business career, I've hired several hundred people and managed thousands. Contrary to a lot of managers I've known, I always tried to hire people smarter than I am. The ego trip of working with idiots wears off quickly. That's why I pay attention to the advice of some people here and ignore others. If someone's books are mired in the millions, why would I consider them an expert and do what they suggest? I listen to the people who write books people want to read.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I've always found it the most useful to listen to people who are where I want to be tomorrow. Not in five years' time, but who are on the next rung of where I want to be next, and who have the same philosophy as I do.

The advice of a mega-seller is not of immediate practical use to me, because a mega-seller can do things that I can't. This is not dismissing advice, but simply filtering what is the best advice for me.

I similarly accept that anything I say will not be useful to everyone. For example, I am a medium seller and have a large mailing list, which is my main vehicle to generate those sales. I do things with this list that would be completely useless to someone without a large list or someone whose list consists only of people who only signed up to hear about the next release, or for someone who is only in KU.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Mike Stop Continues said:


> Show me a person who did everything right and didn't sell books. I don't believe that person exists. By the same token, I'm certain that anyone who's making a mint did most of the important stuff right.
> 
> Believing in chance disempowers writers from growth, even if it saves them from the truth that they can and must do better.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I wouldn't say that you can do everything right and fail. I'd say that two people can both be doing everything right and one can be much more successful, for reasons that have nothing to so with the quality of a book (it for no reason anyone can determine). That's why it's faulty to say people are successful because their books are good (both high quality and commercial) 1. You need a good book, but you need a lot more too.

For example, Vi Keeland is one of the top writers in romance. She writes great books with hooky blurbs and nice covers, but her writing, covers, and blurbs are not signnifigcanly better than other authors who make 1/2 or 1/5 or 1/10 what she does.

Success doesn't always scale "fairly." You can write a 10/10 book and get everything else right and still not do nearly as well as someone else who's books (packaging and marketing) are no better.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> You didn't call anyone an outlier, but someone called Annie one. The problem is that when someone successful gives advice and is dismissed because they're an "outlier" then it leaves little reason for them to give advice again and is also a huge failure on the part of those seeking advice to not study successful authors and see the things that they are all doing. We are all doing certain things.
> 
> I stopped posting here for a couple years because every time I did, I got "but you're an outlier" essentially meaning, my viewpoint didn't count or matter to those here. So I figured why post.
> 
> The irony is, in every sport, playing with people better than you elevates your game and I've done the same thing with writing/publishing. I try to surround myself with highly successful people because of the energy and ideas they have. It pushes me to work harder/better.


There you go with that sense talkin' again. You know better than that.


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## Thame (Apr 18, 2017)

GeneDoucette said:


> I think the entire point of articles like the one that began this thread is that any one of us can point to our own efforts and say "this works" and "this doesn't work" and be right, but with entirely too small of a sample size.
> 
> I agree with Rosalind and Annie on the basics: write good books people want to read. it's the thing that is both most in the control of the writer and least in control of the writer, because we're all doing our best and sometimes that's not enough.
> 
> ...


Not to change the topic here, but I just wanted to share something with you. I ran across your sci-fi book "Spaceship Next Door" when I was looking for something new. This was a couple months ago before I found kboards, or even decided to pursue my own writing. So it's a pleasant surprise to see you posting here!

What drew me to it: it was listed under the "Also Boughts" on another book's page, "Scrapyard Ship." You're still on my to-buy list after I finish Marco Kloos' series. But anyway, your cover caught my eye, the title hinted to an interesting story, and your blurb was what sold me on your book. I hope my comment helps you to get an idea of why a customer chose your book.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> You didn't call anyone an outlier, but someone called Annie one. The problem is that when someone successful gives advice and is dismissed because they're an "outlier" then it leaves little reason for them to give advice again and is also a huge failure on the part of those seeking advice to not study successful authors and see the things that they are all doing. We are all doing certain things.


To me, based on the data I've seen, commercially successful indies _are_ outliers. _Period_. Commercially successful indies are, by their definition, outliers. The vast majority of authors who self publish do not make a living at this biz, let alone six or seven figures. So every commercially successful author, earning 6 figures or higher, is automatically an outlier. Most commercially successful authors have multiple books published and have been doing it for a number of years, and they have business savvy. Sometimes, an author can find commercial success on their first book. For most of us, it takes several to find our voice and develop business skills.

People should _always_ consider the advice and experience of people who are commercially successful and who are where an author wants to be -- if they want to be commercially successful. Seems a no-brainer. So, yes, watch the outliers. They are doing it right  if by right, you mean making six figures or more a year.

Some people don't want to take their advice because, frankly, they don't want to do the work or they can't do the work. And by the work, I mean writing commercial books with large audiences and ensuring they are as visible as possible.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

sela said:


> And by the work, I mean writing commercial books with large audiences and ensuring they are as visible as possible.


The way I look at it, most big indies seem to mostly do the same things, or at least similar things. Say every individual big indie did ten things in running their business. If you were to compare across the board, most of them would probably do the same 6 or 7 things, and the final 3 or 4 would vary.

Some advertise a lot, some don't. Rosalind says she didn't write her books to market, but she clearly keeps does think about her audience when she's writing. Some people write a dozen books a year, some don't.

I mean, it's like anything else. The particular factor that makes a band take off might be really hard to nail down, but most successful bands probably do a lot of same basic things: they are good at their instruments, they rehearse, they commit time so they can tour, they have professional photos. The final 20% is hard to pin down exactly. I guess it's that impossible to define sense of "do people actually like it?".


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Only 20% of American households earn 100k a year. That's the household, ie often more than one source of income accounted for.

So... if you are in the US and earn 100k or more a year doing anything, technically you are an outlier.

Hence why I feel that term isn't very helpful. There is money to be made publishing books. If you want to be one of the people who makes money doing this, pay attention to what might be working well for people who are doing what you want to do. It's common sense in ANY job.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Thame said:


> Not to change the topic here, but I just wanted to share something with you. I ran across your sci-fi book "Spaceship Next Door" when I was looking for something new. This was a couple months ago before I found kboards, or even decided to pursue my own writing. So it's a pleasant surprise to see you posting here!
> 
> What drew me to it: it was listed under the "Also Boughts" on another book's page, "Scrapyard Ship." You're still on my to-buy list after I finish Marco Kloos' series. But anyway, your cover caught my eye, the title hinted to an interesting story, and your blurb was what sold me on your book. I hope my comment helps you to get an idea of why a customer chose your book.


Thanks for posting! And bless those Also-Boughts. Spaceship has had a few BookBub features, which helps a-b recommendations enormously. I appreciate the info.


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## Dax (Oct 20, 2016)

Rosalind, thank you so much for the OP. Very interesting data. I hadn't thought about the number of hours 100k authors work and using that as a possible metric for success. One of the sayings around here, is if you want to be a full-time author, you have to put in full-time hours. (Of course, there are exceptions to that around here, but it seems like a good rule of thumb.)

I'm not quite sure how useful the outlier discussion is. I see what some posters mean by referring to these authors as statistical outliers, which I think  may be getting conflated with referring to the 100k+ authors as "lucky". I'm not sure what's to be done about the luck component. I think we all come to writing with a certain set of skills, a certain body and health status, a certain pot of money from which to draw, a certain home environment. Some of those things, we can do little to nothing about. Others, we can improve our "luck" where we can.

Michael Phelps is a statistical outlier from the length of his arms and the length of his torso.  Obviously, he came to a great advantage as a competitive swimmer that you can only come by through luck of the draw. But he didn't just fall into a pool one day and shatter Olympic records. He had to train day in and day out, day in and day out. Of course, the results were maximized because of his natural gifts. 

Writing seems to me to require less of those natural advantages than sport does.  I think that it would be worthwhile to actually try what the successful authors do for a reasonable period of time, like two to three years, and then see if we can't become "outliers" too.  Good choice of genre with readers, good covers, good blurb, good look-inside, editing, publishing consistently, putting in 30-40 hours a week on it, etc.  I have a hard time believing from my own reading here that someone wouldn't do halfway decently if they did all that. The problem is that it's a ton of work. 

Then, if we don't get the results we're looking for, we change strategies.  For example, Annie Jacoby did this, and when she found she wasn't earning the income she wanted to earn, she posted a long thread here. She didn't blame the Zon or the Powers That Be or even luck. She thought hard about the way she wrote romance, and decided it was time to switch genres. She'd been an outlier once, and she knew that she could be an outlier again. She refused to lay down and die, and it seems like this year is going well for her with her genre switch. 

It seems that success in this business is persistence, some degree of intelligence (writing decently, getting good advice, being able to accept constructive criticism, etc), and just plain old elbow grease and grit. 

Though, honestly, having or cultivating those characteristics might be the true outlier.


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## danpadavona (Sep 25, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> To be fair, six-figure authors are also much less likely to have a day job. People who earn less aren't necessarily working less--they may just have less time to spend writing and marketing.


This is an excellent point and a good example of how statistics can be misleading. I assume plenty of authors hit 100k and quit their jobs to concentrate on writing more per day, whereas if you take the study at face value you will assume authors hit 100k because they quit their jobs and wrote more per day.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

sela said:


> People should _always_ consider the advice and experience of people who are commercially successful and who are where an author wants to be -- if they want to be commercially successful. Seems a no-brainer. So, yes, watch the outliers.


That was my thinking, too. When I hear "outlier" in the context of business, I _always_ pay attention.

Imagine that you want to open a restaurant. Most fail within a few years. What aspiring restauranteur wouldn't listen to the advice of Emeril Lagasse, Jamie Oliver, and Gordon Ramsay, all of whom are arguably outliers in that space?


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## jlstovall4 (Oct 6, 2015)

katrina46 said:


> Yep. My big goal is to buy a house with cash. However, the type of house I want and am currently saving for is only about 60,000k, which will get you a modest but decent house in my area of the country. I can do that simply by continuing to work a regular job and not spend my royalties a while longer. After that, I'm perfectly happy to earn between 3-5k a month, which puts me in the middle class and allows me not to work for someone else anymore because my biggest expense is taken care of. *Wealth is not your income. It's your debt to income ratio, so I consider myself very successful to be able to acquire enough supplemental income to buy a house with cash. Other people might say that's nothing.*





nikkykaye said:


> I'd suggest that in fact people who are actively engaged in places like kboards are already outliers, in a sense. I think it might have been in an Author Earnings Report, but I thought that the vast majority of self-published authors quit after the "one book" they think they have in them. And sell only a few dozen copies. I'm the prawniest of prawns, never having had a four-figure month, but I have to remind myself that even my "failure" is successful by many people's standards.
> 
> Like Rosalind said, success is a subjective construct. I feel successful in that I have the luxury of being able to flop (as I do) without my kids going hungry. *But damn, I want the monies! I want the income and the visibility that comes with "success", because in a way it's external validation of the work I've been doing and sacrifices made.
> *


*

I'm conflicted between these two great points!  *


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

MonkishScribe said:


> What looks effortless and natural in others is usually the result of tons of hard work. That's not to say that we aren't all born with varying levels of native ability, but it can be deceptive from the outside to look at someone's polished draft and try to figure out how they reached that point.


The saying is: The easier it is to read, the harder it is to write .


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Crystal_ said:


> I wouldn't say that you can do everything right and fail. I'd say that two people can both be doing everything right and one can be much more successful, for reasons that have nothing to so with the quality of a book (it for no reason anyone can determine). That's why it's faulty to say people are successful because their books are good (both high quality and commercial) 1. You need a good book, but you need a lot more too.
> 
> For example, Vi Keeland is one of the top writers in romance. She writes great books with hooky blurbs and nice covers, but her writing, covers, and blurbs are not signnifigcanly better than other authors who make 1/2 or 1/5 or 1/10 what she does.
> 
> Success doesn't always scale "fairly." You can write a 10/10 book and get everything else right and still not do nearly as well as someone else who's books (packaging and marketing) are no better.


I agree with this.

There will always be authors appearing on the scene at the same time, writing in the same genre and one has massive success and the other is selling a lot less. Why is it that? Natural talent, that authors unique voice and style. Is it their marketing plan. No two authors are going to promote and market their books exactly the same and some are just good at building a relationship with readers. Some authors experiment a lot and try something different.

There are a couple authors who write books like Vi Keeland, Penelope Ward and Lauren Blakely but they are not constantly on the best sellers chart or on the biggest selling books of the year https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2016/digital-text/154606011/ref=zg_bsar_cal_ye#1

I think it is great to have big names and big selling authors on kboards. I remember listening to a big author saying she does not post on here anymore because she felt she had nothing more to contribute. Here it is, it was Amanda Hocking. https://www.wattpad.com/126324629-ask-me-anything-question-from-marilynvix

However, I think it is the same with any business, that people can take all the advice and try to do what 'a successful author' has done and they still don't sell half as well.

I also think that when some people read threads and interviews with very successful authors, it can be overwhelming to learn how much work that person puts into their career and business.

However, I think it is good to have a mixture of success stories. Not every author works 80 hours a week, spends thousands on ads and has a VA. There are authors who still have a day job and manage to write and publish a book every 3 months. Not every author is trying to get into the top 100. There so many different success stories.

I listen to a lot of interviews with romance authors and one author says she wrote a book and with a little promotion it took off, while another author said she did not see success until book 4.

Like I said on the other thread, I like to read the big success stories where someone is making $100k a year or even $500k. I love the stories of authors selling their movie or tv rights (because I'd love to do that one day) but I also love the stories of authors who are quitting their soul sucking day jobs and writing happily.

I think Wayne's video about Freedom is fantastic, that's the lifestyle I want too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oix5XTILX3I


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

It's not always about having a day job or not. Writing has been my full time job since 2004. I got an agent in '06, sold to NY in '09, started indie pubbing (along with my NY books) in '10, but I didn't really break out until '15 when I released the first Nocturne Falls book. That success was due to finding an underserved area of the market, writing great books, and packaging them well. And yes, I'm an outlier. But I think what I did is achievable if you can write books that people want to keep reading.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Kristen Painter said:


> It's not always about having a day job or not. Writing has been my full time job since 2004. I got an agent in '06, sold to NY in '09, started indie pubbing (along with my NY books) in '10, but I didn't really break out until '15 when I released the first Nocturne Falls book. That success was due to finding an underserved area of the market, writing great books, and packaging them well. And yes, I'm an outlier. But I think what I did is achievable if you can write books that people want to keep reading.


An outlier? It sounds like you worked hard and stuck with it. Good work ethic as opposed to being a random hit.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

To me, there are two main elements of success in indie publishing and I suspect they undergird all commercially successful indies.

Business acumen is the second element -- your author platform, your marketing strategy, promotions, networking, output, work ethic, etc.

Craft / Art is the first and the most important. I'm not talking beautiful prose (although there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it suits the genre and category); I'm talking craft as in storytelling chops and a sense of story, character and pace that suits the genre and category and so pleases readers.

The two work together to make an indie a commercial success, but without the first, success will be short lived. You can get a mediocre book up in the ranks with a really savvy push and lots of paid marketing, etc. but if the story doesn't please, the fall will be fast and the ROI not as great as if the product itself was quality.

So: focus on craft / art and then make sure your business skills are up to snuff. Storytelling storytelling storytelling should be the indie author's mantra followed by business business business.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosie A. said:


> An outlier? It sounds like you worked hard and stuck with it. Good work ethic as opposed to being a random hit.


Right, there's nothing random about it. I work like a beast. For a year I said no to everything so I could get the first three books written and polished in order to release them in three consecutive months. When I say I'm an outlier I absolutely do not mean I got lucky. I mean I'm an outlier because of the sales my books generate. They exceed the average. That's all.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Rosie A. said:


> An outlier? It sounds like you worked hard and stuck with it. Good work ethic as opposed to being a random hit.


The word _outlier_ doesn't mean random, and it doesn't have anything to do with how hard you worked. It's a statistical term that refers to a data point that doesn't fall within the same range as the bulk of the other data points.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> The word _outlier_ doesn't mean random, and it doesn't have anything to do with how hard you worked. It's a statistical term that refers to a data point that doesn't fall within the same range as the bulk of the other data points.


Thank you!

If you want to be an outlier, then listen to outliers and study what they do and how they do it.

Not easy, by its very nature. Akin to wanting to write a Billboard Hit song.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

crow.bar.beer said:


> The word _outlier_ doesn't mean random, and it doesn't have anything to do with how hard you worked. It's a statistical term that refers to a data point that doesn't fall within the same range as the bulk of the other data points.


This. Thank you.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> The word _outlier_ doesn't mean random, and it doesn't have anything to do with how hard you worked. It's a statistical term that refers to a data point that doesn't fall within the same range as the bulk of the other data points.


Right, but that's not how people often use it. Especially here. Outlier often gets wielded like a club (not that I think David was doing that). Having now been hit by that club a few times I get why people are sensitive. It sucks having your direct experience dismissed based not on the fact that you failed, but that you succeeded too well.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jana DeLeon said:


> You didn't call anyone an outlier, but someone called Annie one. The problem is that when someone successful gives advice and is dismissed because they're an "outlier" then it leaves little reason for them to give advice again and is also a huge failure on the part of those seeking advice to not study successful authors and see the things that they are all doing. We are all doing certain things.
> 
> I stopped posting here for a couple years because every time I did, I got "but you're an outlier" essentially meaning, my viewpoint didn't count or matter to those here. So I figured why post.
> 
> The irony is, in every sport, playing with people better than you elevates your game and I've done the same thing with writing/publishing. I try to surround myself with highly successful people because of the energy and ideas they have. It pushes me to work harder/better.


Jana, I think several of your recent posts have brought up this issue of feeling frequently disrespected here. I'm sorry you're having that experience.

In this case, Annie posted to point out that she does not fully fit the profile Written Word developed for $100K authors, with its average of 30 books published, or a couple of the practices other very successful authors have mentioned in this thread (heavy advertising, use of a VA). She was then called an "outlier" by someone who I'm pretty sure is also a six-figure earner, someone I presume _does _advertise heavy or use a VA or have 30 books out. So I'm not seeing any disrespect/ignoring of the very successful by the less successful, here; rather, I'm seeing the very successful disagreeing among themselves a little and/or pointing out there is some diversity of practices within their own echelon.

Others are always free to take or reject advice, of course, but if responses cross over into rudeness or otherwise break KB's forum decorum, please report them. This goes for everyone.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I think there's something, some X factor, that's hard to spot and account for, which is one reason why things can seem random. You can call it talent or skill or whatever--a way of making the story feel immediate, making it hooky. I thought I was just lucky at first, but part of it was that I deliberately wrote three books with a really strong and different hook, and then I titled the series and the books well and put covers on them that made them more visible. But it was the idea of the first book, the hook, that really sold them. I started thinking it was more than luck when my next series did very well, even though it was quite different. I think "voice" matters a whole lot, and you don't know whether you have an attractive voice (so to speak) until you put the work out there. 

I've been a six-figure author from the beginning, mid-six from Year 2 on, but there was no way I was good enough to be a seven-figure author. My first book was my first fiction, and it shows. The book's sold well (about 100K copies in English ebook, 40K more in German), but I think if I'd done some things better, it could have done much better than that. Only about half the people who read it go on to read the next one. 

Now, I think I might be getting there as far as the skill level, and indeed, I'll probably hit high six figures this year. What holds me back now is more the marketing aspect (I freely admit I don't do much), which includes not writing directly enough to my most profitable market. (Because I like to do different things.) I've written 23 books now, though, in these five years, more than 2 million words of fiction, and I've worked really hard to improve. That's mostly my goal--just to get better, to write things that delight people, to hit the notes right. 

Perhaps saying all that invites potshots, and indeed, not everybody likes what I do. Not at all. Everybody doesn't have to like what you do, though. I don't think I write extremely mass market--Crystal has a word for it, but I can't remember what it is. Something about having very broad appeal. You just need to appeal to enough people to make up a solid audience.


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## SA_Soule (Sep 8, 2011)

sela said:


> I always advise new authors to put out the very best product you can. Beg borrow or steal (not really!) so you can get pro covers (even premade for $35 - $50) and get someone to -- at minimum -- proofread you work. You have to compete with the top sellers for visibility. Treat yourself like a pro. Pros get pro editing and pro cover design. They work hard. In the end, the rest is up to the book and how well the author tells the story.


This is good advice and so true. Writers should always be striving to improve their craft and studying the market.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

All six figure writers are outliers and we're all lucky. That doesn't mean we don't work hard or that we don't haven't good business advice. Luck factors into some​ people's success more than others-- I know one author who succeeds even when she does everything wrong and another who flounders even when she does everything right-- but it is some element of success for everyone. That's true in every endeavor.

Everyone comes into this with certain advantages and disadvantages and finds more along the way. One person might keep getting Amazon deal of the day/months, another might write a great book that gets swallowed up in an ocean of similar hold because it suddenly became a trend, another might hit a trend a little earlier and get a huge boost from that. Or they might publish a week when also-ran are funky and lose a ton of visibility. Or publish during the election when book sales are a crater. Or get picked up by a blogger because they were in the right place at the right time. There are so many ways you can get lucky or unlucky in this job. It evens out over time, in theory, but it can be frustrating short term. All we can do is keep writing and marketing.

Good is relative, and sometimes good and commerical don't play well for a certain project or author. A lot of us chose a lower ceiling so we can write stuff we like more and that's okay too.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

crow.bar.beer said:


> The word _outlier_ doesn't mean random, and it doesn't have anything to do with how hard you worked. It's a statistical term that refers to a data point that doesn't fall within the same range as the bulk of the other data points.


Math wasn't my strong suit.  I thought the term meant something different in the context of this conversation and only wanted to point out that it takes a lot of work and patience to get to such a point in this industry.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Jana, I think several of your recent posts have brought up this issue of feeling frequently disrespected here. I'm sorry you're having that experience.


Actually, that's not it at all. To feel disrespected, I'd have to care what others thought and that's something I stopped doing a long time ago. It's the kindest thing you can do for yourself and I highly recommend it.

What I get is aggravated that successful authors spend time trying to help and the advice, which is often applicable to every writer in every genre, is summarily dismissed because of the success of the person saying it. THEN there is thread after thread complaining about lack of sales, when everything people need to know is right here but some refuse to listen.

Someone said earlier that if every successful author made a list of 10 things we do, we'd probably have 7 or more in common. I totally agree with that statement because I know several seven figure authors and a ton of mid to upper six figure authors and we all share similar work habits and business plans. To say that someone highly successful can no longer give advice to new authors is basically saying they can no longer remember two, three, five years ago. I doubt any of us has forgotten what it took to get here. We're still in the trenches. It doesn't get easier.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> I think there's something, some X factor, that's hard to spot and account for, which is one reason why things can seem random. You can call it talent or skill or whatever--a way of making the story feel immediate, making it hooky. I thought I was just lucky at first, but part of it was that I deliberately wrote three books with a really strong and different hook, and then I titled the series and the books well and put covers on them that made them more visible. But it was the idea of the first book, the hook, that really sold them. I started thinking it was more than luck when my next series did very well, even though it was quite different. I think "voice" matters a whole lot, and you don't know whether you have an attractive voice (so to speak) until you put the work out there.


Agree. There are so many factors that can't be quantified when it comes to a lot of this business. Ultimately, if you're not resonating with readers, doing all the "right things" still won't help make up for the missing "X factor".


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## Justin Jordan (Feb 15, 2011)

Man, this is baffling.

Not doing the same stuff as other people who are other wise similar to you do is literally being an outlier. 

But especially in the context it first cropped up in this thread, that outlierness is relevant. Annie (and apologies for speaking for her) was specifically making the point about stuff she doesn't do on the list of stuff that most six figures authors in that survey do not being critical for success. Or, rather, that being an outlier didn't mean you couldn't be a six figure author.

If for instance, you found most NBA stars are over six foot six, Spud Webb would be an outlier who proves that it's necessary to be tall to succeed. But at the same time, context would show that your chances are BETTER if you are. And the flipside is true - merely being tall is not enough. So acknowledging when something or someone actually is an outlier is important for evaluating the points being made, in both direction. It's worth knowing you can hit six figures* with minimal advertising and no VA and less than thirty books. It's also worth knowing that the people in this study mostly did use VA's and advertising and had lots of books. 

Or for a personal example: I write comic books for a living. I got a job writing for DC comics when I had exactly ONE book out from a professional publisher. This makes me an outlier. Knowing that this can be done is useful to someone trying to do what I do, but it's also worth knowing that most of the time, that's not what happens.

(Indeed, the actual story of how that happened involves factors that I couldn't replicate myself, let alone tell someone else how to do.)

*In this study.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

My guess is that everyone who was surveyed has a few ways they don't fit the profile. 

I'd take what you can use--maybe you write slow, but you can advertise more, for instance--and customize it to suit you.

I'm not a six figure author, but now that I know that the average six figure author has 30 books out I feel better. I'll get to 30 books ... in another eight years or so.


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## nikkykaye (Sep 24, 2016)

Crystal_ said:


> IFor example, Vi Keeland is one of the top writers in romance. She writes great books with hooky blurbs and nice covers, but her writing, covers, and blurbs are not signnifigcanly better than other authors who make 1/2 or 1/5 or 1/10 what she does.


Crystal, you just hit on the thing that has been my biggest enemy in the last year--the toxic whining of "why not me?"

I'm a pretty decent writer, and have been compared to Lauren Blakely and Vi Keeland--both of whom I read and enjoy and whose careers I would love to have. And I'm getting professional covers and have a publicist helping me and grown my list to 4k in the ten months or so since I started, and been a bestseller in a subcategory, but... I've yet to crack $500/month.

So there's that horrible, cringe-inducing part of me that is frustrated and wondering what to do differently. AFAIK, when people read me, they keep reading me. And that is picking up a little. I had a free promo last week that netted 15k downloads in a few days, and I have sales and reads across my entire catalogue daily. So I'm hopeful that new readers are discovering me. I just need another 100,000 of them. 

I think a lot of being a "creative" of any kind means that you're half narcissist, half plagued with insecurity and self-doubt. It's a nasty combination sometimes. *It's too easy to get wound up in comparing yourself to others, and I know for myself that it just ends in negative emotions. I'm better off when I compare myself to where I was three books ago, or six months ago.*


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

nikkykaye said:


> Crystal, you just hit on the thing that has been my biggest enemy in the last year--the toxic whining of "why not me?"
> 
> I'm a pretty decent writer, and have been compared to Lauren Blakely and Vi Keeland--both of whom I read and enjoy and whose careers I would love to have. And I'm getting professional covers and have a publicist helping me and grown my list to 4k in the ten months or so since I started, and been a bestseller in a subcategory, but... I've yet to crack $500/month.
> 
> ...


I feel ya. I had some serious early success in romance, then started spinning my wheels and never stopped. Romance is a brutal, brutal genre just because it's so saturated. So, don't beat yourself up! And, as Perry Constantine shows, all it takes is one hit. Eh, no, strike that - I had two series hit, and then went into the toilet.

Actually, this biz is more like a rollercoaster. And it's definitely not for the faint of heart.

Hang in there!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> I feel ya. I had some serious early success in romance, then started spinning my wheels and never stopped. Romance is a brutal, brutal genre just because it's so saturated. So, don't beat yourself up! And, as Perry Constantine shows, all it takes is one hit. Eh, no, strike that - I had two series hit, and then went into the toilet.
> 
> Actually, this biz is more like a rollercoaster. And it's definitely not for the faint of heart.
> 
> Hang in there!


This for sure.

Publishing is a roller coaster. I know a few authors who have gone up up up and then dowwwwn and then up again. Rinse. Repeat.

It can be tough to see the sales plummet and then rise again only to plummet and rise again. I've been lucky to stay in five figures a month for the past two years, but I've come darn near close to falling below five figures. I get a Bookbub that coincides with a new release and it's back up to mid five figures and then if I go a couple of months with no new release or Bookbub, it falls to half that and then down to almost below $10K. It can be dizzying.

You have to plan for those peaks and troughs between new releases and promotions. Most of all, you have to keep producing new books and keep promoting.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

nikkykaye said:


> Crystal, you just hit on the thing that has been my biggest enemy in the last year--the toxic whining of "why not me?"
> 
> I'm a pretty decent writer, and have been compared to Lauren Blakely and Vi Keeland--both of whom I read and enjoy and whose careers I would love to have. And I'm getting professional covers and have a publicist helping me and grown my list to 4k in the ten months or so since I started, and been a bestseller in a subcategory, but... I've yet to crack $500/month.
> 
> ...


My BFF and I say being an author is swinging wildly between narcissism and crippling self-doubt. I do better than most, but it's still really hard for me to not engage in that _why not me._ I thought it would go away once I hit my idea of success, and it did for a while, but my standards for myself raised, and I found myself at that place again. I think it's hard for everyone, and it gets harder the more you actively work on the business/marketing side of your career. Because it is a legitimate question--what can I do better, that will help me get to the next level--but it can be baffling when you can't figure it out.

I have on and off depression and anxiety, so my brain is always looking for ways to say "you're not good enough." With indie writing, all the evidence is right there in front of you! You can see so much of other authors' success (though ranking, reviews, etc. don't always tell the whole story). I get frustrated when I see friends do really well without heavy advertising, even when I'm happy for them, because I claw my way to every dollar I make. I'm not sure there's really a solution, except to take as much fulfillment as you can from the work itself, to save your money when you can, and to engage in all the other parts of your life so writing doesn't feel so life and death.

Like Annie, I've found that romance is a constant uphill climb. I don't have to climb as far and fast as when I started, but I have to keep advertising more, trying new stuff, upping my game, etc. just to stay in place. Algo tweaks keep hurting backlists, and romance keeps getting more crowded, and with .99 books and with authors with four-figure a day FB ad budgets.

There's a natural ebb and flow to income-- it goes up with sales and new releases and down with "drier" months--but I've seen non-release months drop lower and lower, and it's scary, even when you're doing well. It's hard out there.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Actually, that's not it at all. To feel disrespected, I'd have to care what others thought and that's something I stopped doing a long time ago. It's the kindest thing you can do for yourself and I highly recommend it.
> 
> What I get is aggravated that successful authors spend time trying to help and the advice, which is often applicable to every writer in every genre, is summarily dismissed because of the success of the person saying it. THEN there is thread after thread complaining about lack of sales, when everything people need to know is right here but some refuse to listen.
> 
> Someone said earlier that if every successful author made a list of 10 things we do, we'd probably have 7 or more in common. I totally agree with that statement because I know several seven figure authors and a ton of mid to upper six figure authors and we all share similar work habits and business plans. To say that someone highly successful can no longer give advice to new authors is basically saying they can no longer remember two, three, five years ago. I doubt any of us has forgotten what it took to get here. We're still in the trenches. It doesn't get easier.


I think most of our members are grateful for advice from major authors, even when the message is sort of painful. But people being people, it'll never be 100%. There will always be those who show up expecting to have their choices validated and are shocked, angry, or resistant when they get a different message. When your brain is recoiling from advice you don't want to hear, it's natural to come up with some excuse, even a weird one like "you don't know what you're talking about because you're successful" (which is, yeah, really quite a strange argument).

I get students like that. They come into class *knowing *they're terrific writers, *certain *I have nothing to teach them, and they make their certainty a reality by refusing to read my comments on their papers, listen or participate in class, revise, or learn new skills. So, they get bad grades. It's college; they're grownups. If they don't want to learn, I can't make them. The experience of fairly regularly having students like that doesn't diminish the satisfaction I get from sharing my expertise with rest, who are eager to learn what I can teach them or are at least willing to be won over.

So I have to admit, I don't really understand being aggravated about folks who choose to reject advice. I mean ... who cares? To use author-speak, they're not your audience. The far larger number of people who want and are grateful for your advice are your audience. They're there on every thread, even if the initiator of the thread isn't listening. Most are invisible. Right now there are 153 registered users on the forum and 732 guests. People you don't know and who will never say anything are reading and benefiting from what you say here, always.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> I think most of our members are grateful for advice from major authors, even when the message is sort of painful. But people being people, it'll never be 100%. There will always be those who show up expecting to have their choices validated and are shocked, angry, or resistant when they get a different message. When your brain is recoiling from advice you don't want to hear, it's natural to come up with some excuse, even a weird one like "you don't know what you're talking about because you're successful" (which is, yeah, really quite a strange argument).


I mentioned in my post on here (which no one probably read because it's long and I am not a bestselling author) but there are some people who want to write a book, are just about to publish a book or have published but are not selling who find some of the advice from major authors _overwhelming_. I see it all the time on different forums, blogs and comments on videos.

It's almost like a big hollywood actor or director is so successful and far removed that they cannot stand in your shoes today and understand what you are going through. I think some people forget that you were right where they are, you had to deal with self-doubt, coming up with ideas, research, hours of cranking out words, writing an entertaining book and then publishing with no guarantee of success. 
You were a newbie author one day.

What annoys me is when people say that we can't compare ourselves to this mega selling author e.g. E.L.James, Stephanie Meyer, Amanda Hocking but I think we can learn a couple things from all these authors. Maybe how to deal with self-doubt and self-sabotage, how to stay focused or how to find ideas. Basic stuff like how to build a relationship with your readers, which Amanda Hocking was really good at doing. Her videos were good and she was so open.

I see a few major romance authors doing the same things. 
I am watching Alessandra Torre and J.A. Huss's videos about writing and self publishing right now. It is brilliant to see these authors taking time out to post this information and advice. Will it help make every viewer into a major bestselling author, no but the advice and insight is going to help some gain more knowledge and give them some action steps they can try.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> I get students like that. They come into class knowing they're terrific writers, certain I have nothing to teach them, and they make their certainty a reality by refusing to read my comments on their papers, listen or participate in class, revise, or learn new skills. So, they get bad grades.


Yes! About 1970 I taught fiction writing in an alternative program at the state university (there was a lot of that kind of thing going on at the time). I loved it and sometimes wish I'd tried to get a teaching job in the "real" university when the alternative program was abandoned (there was a lot of that going on, too).

What astonished me was how good a couple of those kids were. I couldn't imagine where they were getting their stories from. But yes, there were others who just sat there with glazed eyes or never showed up at all. Alas, I couldn't give them bad grades, because the alternative university had done away with grades, in the spirit of the times. I could fail them, however, and I did that to the student who didn't show up. And I could write letters for them to the "real" teachers when they shifted out of the two-year program. I think I recommended two of them. Alas, AFAIK I don't think either became rich and famous as a writer.

Talent just isn't enough, which I think has been a constant in this discussion.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I get students like that. They come into class *knowing *they're terrific writers, *certain *I have nothing to teach them, and they make their certainty a reality by refusing to read my comments on their papers, listen or participate in class, revise, or learn new skills. So, they get bad grades. It's college; they're grownups. If they don't want to learn, I can't make them. The experience of fairly regularly having students like that doesn't diminish the satisfaction I get from sharing my expertise with rest, who are eager to learn what I can teach them or are at least willing to be won over.


This reminds me of a story. it's not meant to contradict anything above, it's just something I was reminded of. I only ever took one creative writing course, in college, as an undergrad. This came after multiple playwriting classes and a non-fiction class. The feedback I got from the instructor (not a professor: someone with a masters in creative) was consistently of the 'this is bad writing i don't like it' variety, and I was getting increasingly frustrated because I flat-out did not agree with her opinion of my work. So in a one-on-one, after more back-and-forth, she said maybe I just wasn't cut out to be a writer.

At that point, I suggested she walk by the theater, because they had a poster on the wall with my name on it. I was the first student writer to have a play produced by the school's dramatic society in the history of the dramatic society, and it was in production as we spoke.

I think that the vast, vast majority of the time, if someone, many someones or the market itself says to a writer that they aren't doing something well, they need to listen. But sometimes, the person telling us this is wrong. The biggest challenge is figuring out when our egos are right about something.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Right now there are 153 registered users on the forum and 732 guests.


Is that _all_? I never counted or estimated but I just assumed there were thousands.

Wow. This makes me feel like I'm in the indie publishing Freemasons or something.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

RightHoJeeves said:


> Is that _all_? I never counted or estimated but I just assumed there were thousands.
> 
> Wow. This makes me feel like I'm in the indie publishing Freemasons or something.


No, she means *right now*. Browsing the forum, in the middle of the night in the US, the slowest time on the internet. The KB has over 60,000 members.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> No, she means *right now*. Browsing the forum, in the middle of the night in the US, the slowest time on the internet. The KB has over 60,000 members.


Oh. Thought I was a bit of a snowflake there for a moment.


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## Red Riley (May 28, 2017)

I'm not an outlier, but I'm a pretty good regular liar.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I think that the vast, vast majority of the time, if someone, many someones or the market itself says to a writer that they aren't doing something well, they need to listen. But sometimes, the person telling us this is wrong. The biggest challenge is figuring out when our egos are right about something.


I only took one creative writing class in highschool. I got a 'C'. I'm sure my final project was immature, but the idea was pretty damn good, and I've thought about rewriting it.


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## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

Red Riley said:


> I'm not an outlier, but I'm a pretty good regular liar.


The term laughed out loud is overused, but I still laughed out loud.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

notjohn said:


> Talent just isn't enough, which I think has been a constant in this discussion.


I think talent is essential for long-term, evergreen success (having a few books sticking at enviable ranks year-round, sustained by some form of minimal marketing and/or a somewhat regular publishing schedule). To me, that's winning the big prize in a writing career.

Writing talent/storytelling appears less of a requirement for a few of the treadmill publishers in several best-selling genres. I'm not dinging those authors. Many of them are to be admired for their marketing savvy and ability to spot trends and profit from them. They may yearn for the perfect turn of phrase like any other writer, but put that yearning aside when their cash flow deems it necessary and their audience doesn't really care one way or the other.

Hitting the $100k may not be in reach for those writing in the less popular genres or pursuing a more "literary" career that disdains "writing to market" (I don't). But there's no reason why they can't have "One Pen For The Money, Another Pen For Show". A talented writer could do both without damaging their integrity. For some, it might be their only road to $100k, and there's no shame in that.


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## Robert A Michael (Apr 30, 2012)

anniejocoby said:


> I feel ya. I had some serious early success in romance, then started spinning my wheels and never stopped. Romance is a brutal, brutal genre just because it's so saturated. So, don't beat yourself up! And, as Perry Constantine shows, all it takes is one hit. Eh, no, strike that - I had two series hit, and then went into the toilet.
> 
> Actually, this biz is more like a rollercoaster. And it's definitely not for the faint of heart.
> 
> Hang in there!


You nailed it. Thanks for expressing just how I feel.

I'm a decent writer. I want what "X" has. Why can't I have it? Waa! Poor me. It's when this bad attitude permeates my work (or lack of it) that I allow my circumstances or my envy to hold my own potential success hostage. The stuff about narcissism and doubt is spot-on.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

notjohn said:


> Talent just isn't enough...


This reminds me of an interview I heard years ago with Eddie Van Halen. He noted there were 15-year-olds sitting in their bedrooms who could blow him away on guitar. But most of them would never become famous. They didn't have what it takes to get on stage and be a showman.

That's how I see being a commercially successful author. Writing chops are a prerequisite. They get you a spot on the bench, but don't guarantee you'll get time on the court.


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## VincentZandri (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm more or less a 100ker as described in the article. And a hybrid at that. I was surprised to find how much I fit the bill of the full-timer, who writes a whole lot of words and who pays to market aggressively. But I do find that the 100K is an average. Some years I make more, others less. Because of this article, I actually made a count of how many full-length indie novels I have for sale (not including novellas, shorts, or boxed sets), and I only have ten which jives entirely with the math. I can see now that 20-30 indie novels will be the sweet spot for me. Meaning, I look forward to the day when I'm earning 100K just on my indie books alone. The payments from the publishers will then be gravy. 
Vin


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> This reminds me of an interview I heard years ago with Eddie Van Halen. He noted there were 15-year-olds sitting in their bedrooms who could blow him away on guitar. But most of them would never become famous. *They didn't have what it takes to get on stage and be a showman.*
> 
> That's how I see being a commercially successful author. Writing chops are a prerequisite. They get you a spot on the bench, but don't guarantee you'll get time on the court.


That's not really talent, though, is it? I've seen some folks who can act their ass off and do great at auditions, but utterly stink up the joint once they're on stage. I think that's more a confidence thing.

More than talent, I think a writer wanting a career out of writing needs to be persistent, patient, and be willing to constantly learn. Self-confidence doesn't hurt, either. No one owes us a living from writing. We have to each go and get it.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Dpock said:


> Writing talent/storytelling appears less of a requirement for a few of the treadmill publishers in several best-selling genres.


Damn, that's one of the best subtle insults I've seen yet.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> Damn, that's one of the best subtle insults I've seen yet.


Though it's really not meant as one. It takes skill to sense the market pulse just right and know, regardless of ability, exactly what degree of your talent to employ. I console myself by thinking even Shakespeare knew when to reel himself in.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Dpock said:


> Though it's really not meant as one. It takes skill to sense the market pulse just right and know, regardless of ability, exactly what degree of your talent to employ. I console myself by thinking even Shakespeare knew when to reel himself in.


"Titus Andronicus" notwithstanding, though I guess he was writing to market with that one.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

GeneDoucette said:


> This reminds me of a story. it's not meant to contradict anything above, it's just something I was reminded of. I only ever took one creative writing course, in college, as an undergrad. This came after multiple playwriting classes and a non-fiction class. The feedback I got from the instructor (not a professor: someone with a masters in creative) was consistently of the 'this is bad writing i don't like it' variety, and I was getting increasingly frustrated because I flat-out did not agree with her opinion of my work. So in a one-on-one, after more back-and-forth, she said maybe I just wasn't cut out to be a writer.
> 
> At that point, I suggested she walk by the theater, because they had a poster on the wall with my name on it. I was the first student writer to have a play produced by the school's dramatic society in the history of the dramatic society, and it was in production as we spoke.
> 
> I think that the vast, vast majority of the time, if someone, many someones or the market itself says to a writer that they aren't doing something well, they need to listen. But sometimes, the person telling us this is wrong. The biggest challenge is figuring out when our egos are right about something.


Oh, there are definitely bad teachers out there. You can see it from the inside, and you hear about it from students, too. It's terrible luck to get one of them. I bet the sort of experience you had crops up the most in creative writing, where tastes can differ so widely. If you let yourself get locked blindly into your own tastes, you won't teach well.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Some people can write a story with a good structure and all the right elements in place without having to work very hard at it. Are they talented? What does that mean? That person probably read so many stories they learned the structure without having to sit down and work at it. Some people take easily to an instrument and can do things earlier and better than others. Is that talent? It's an inherent natural understanding of something and ability to do it. Talent's a crummy word for it. 

Someone who stands at six feet is never told they're much more talented than short people. They just naturally grew taller. The person has no control over the things that occur without their trying, which includes the ability to to do something they haven't worked hard at. 

Give me somebody for whom a skill doesn't come naturally who loves it and is willing to put in the time to learn, and that person is going to blow the talented one out of the water almost every time. Drive and determination are far more important than having a skill come easy. Far more.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Shelley K said:


> Some people can write a story with a good structure and all the right elements in place without having to work very hard at it. Are they talented? What does that mean? That person probably read so many stories they learned the structure without having to sit down and work at it. Some people take easily to an instrument and can do things earlier and better than others. Is that talent? It's an inherent natural understanding of something and ability to do it. Talent's a crummy word for it.
> 
> Someone who stands at six feet is never told they're much more talented than short people. They just naturally grew taller. The person has no control over the things that occur without their trying, which includes the ability to to do something they haven't worked hard at.
> 
> Give me somebody for whom a skill doesn't come naturally who loves it and is willing to put in the time to learn, and that person is going to blow the talented one out of the water almost every time. Drive and determination are far more important than having a skill come easy. Far more.


It comes easily to me. But I don't get blown out of the water that much. Anybody can have drive and determination. Including a person to whom a skill comes easily.

Some people write way faster than I do and hustle more, yeah. I'm not the bestest evah in either talent or push. But I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. And I disagree that the person with not much talent but huge drive will do better in this job, actually. I know lots of writers putting out a book a month and promoting like crazy who do ok but not great. To do great, you probably do need the X factor.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

The concept of luck was bandied about earlier in this thread, and in others, for that matter. I'm a former professional poker player and I can easily say that when you have a group of people engaged in a similar pursuit, all chasing a common goal, then luck will invariably visit each of them in more or less equal doses. Lady Luck doesn't care whose shoulder she's sitting on now, but it's a certainty she will quickly move on. In writing, as in poker, what makes the difference between success and lack of success is skill, hard work, and constant learning.

Over the years, you've heard the stories. They all have the same ring to them. Someone puts their first book out and within two or three months, they're selling 20,000 copies a month. They claim to have done no marketing of any kind. They just tossed the book out into the boundless Amazon Sea, crossed their fingers, and poof! Riches flowed in.

It doesn't really work that way. Some concerted effort had to be made to put a debut novel from an unknown author in front of that many people to sell 20,000 copies in one month so quickly. What passes for luck is really something else.

There's a saying in poker that applies nicely to writing: the harder I work, the "luckier" I get.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> It comes easily to me. But I don't get blown out of the water that much. Anybody can have drive and determination. Including a person to whom a skill comes easily.


I was talking about talent alone vs someone not as talented but determined to learn. You also apparently have drive to go with your skills or you wouldn't be writing and publishing regularly, Rosalind. But you illustrate my point. You're one of the few writers I'm aware of who wrote a book and had success. Most write a lot before they break out, because they had to learn talent. Too many inherently "talented" people don't do what it takes, because when something comes easy, they often assume everything should.



> And I disagree that the person with not much talent but huge drive will do better in this job, actually. I know lots of writers putting out a book a month and promoting like crazy who do ok but not great. To do great, you probably do need the X factor.


"Not much talent" doesn't mean much unless you're talking about someone who can't learn to write no matter what, and I think that's pretty rare. Someone inherently able to do it doesn't have that much of an advantage over someone who works hard at learning to write, in the end. Sometimes the hard worker gets far better than someone deemed naturally talented, because they strive to get better all the time and many talented people rest on their laurels. "Talent," for the most part, can be taught. I don't know whether some X factor can be, but I'm not really a big believer in it in the first place.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Don Donovan said:


> The concept of luck was bandied about earlier in this thread, and in others, for that matter. I'm a former professional poker player and I can easily say that when you have a group of people engaged in a similar pursuit, all chasing a common goal, then luck will invariably visit each of them in more or less equal doses. Lady Luck doesn't care whose shoulder she's sitting on now, but it's a certainty she will quickly move on. In writing, as in poker, what makes the difference between success and lack of success is skill, hard work, and constant learning.
> 
> Over the years, you've heard the stories. They all have the same ring to them. Someone puts their first book out and within two or three months, they're selling 20,000 copies a month. They claim to have done no marketing of any kind. They just tossed the book out into the boundless Amazon Sea, crossed their fingers, and poof! Riches flowed in.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it actually does work that way. Or it can. OK, it's not luck. It's a hooky concept, a hooky cover, a hooky title, a hooky blurb, and most of all, a hooky book that generates word of mouth.

I wrote my first book at age 50+. My very first fiction ever since a one-page story at age 9 for a school assignment. It was about Betty Bacteria, and it was totally derivative. I just copied the example concept and expanded. That was it. Me and fiction.

For my first book, I did not use an editor. I had some beta readers who were my friends. I wrote it, I wrote two more, and I published them. The first month, I sold 2,000 copies and made $5,000. Four months later, I gave away 93,000 copies of Book 1 in five days and then sat in the Top 100 Paid for 5 days. I sold 20,000 books that month, and that first book of mine has sold about 150,000 copies in English and German ebook, print, and audio in the past four and a half years. It still sells well.

I had no business selling that many. I did lots of things wrong. But I'm naturally good at some things in fiction writing, and my genre works for those things. I've gotten better since, but that first book is still many readers' favorite. My story is not at all unique. I know several other people like this also, many of whom did far better than I did with that first fiction. But one thing about me? I followed up. I kept working. In fact, I doubled down.

That doesn't mean talent is enough. Of course not. But there's such a thing as leveraging your best skill set. Writing romance happens to leverage my best skill set, which is why, I believe, success has come more easily for me in this field than it did in others. Other jobs I've had took much more "effort" to succeed. I spend lots of time, and I strive to get better all the time. I work HARD to get better at writing. But writing came easily, success came easily, and improvement comes fairly easily too. I have personal qualities that make that so (including 58 years developing good work habits, but also including other inborn qualities and personal preferences. I graduated from UC Berkeley in History with a 3.98 GPA, and from business school with a 4.0. I know how to work, I'm a good writer, and I'm smart. Those things count in this job.)

On the other hand, I'm horrible at physical stuff requiring any daring. Horrible. I'm married to a backcountry skier and rock climber. I've tried those things, and I'm absolutely terrible. I could work at them until the cows came home without acquiring much more skill. I've practiced yoga for many years. I'm still bad (I know, I know, you're not "bad" at yoga. OK, I'm not flexible, and I'm not very coordinated.) I'm also crap-crap-crappity-crap at sales, though I'm good at marketing (creating collateral that sells the product). Because I'm shy, anxious, and sometimes awkward. If I tried to work as, say, a hiking guide? I'd be horrible. I'd be fired. I wouldn't put people at ease, I'd get nervous, and I'd become a gibbering idiot. And yet I'm good at hiking, I'm extremely conscientious, and I'm generally good with people. Most people like me. I just don't have the qualities for that job.

See, sales. I'm not selling this point very well, am I? Probably just sounding like a jerk. There you go. But I'm really good at writing books with feels.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Jim Johnson said:


> That's not really talent, though, is it?


Correct. And that's the point. Or, as notjohn said...



notjohn said:


> Talent just isn't enough...


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> Yeah, it actually does work that way. Or it can. OK, it's not luck. It's a hooky concept, a hooky cover, a hooky title, a hooky blurb, and most of all, a hooky book that generates word of mouth.
> 
> I wrote my first book at age 50+. My very first fiction ever since a one-page story at age 9 for a school assignment. It was about Betty Bacteria, and it was totally derivative. I just copied the example concept and expanded. That was it. Me and fiction.
> 
> ...


You left out the part about BookBub picking you up, out of the blue, which helped you give away 93,000 free copies when you first were writing. That's a pretty important detail. I think that the person you were replying to was talking about putting out a book, doing NO MARKETING OF ANY KIND, and having it take off. I can only think of one book that did that - Cake, A Love Story. Other than that...


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Deblombardi said:


> You left out the part about BookBub picking you up, out of the blue, which helped you give away 93,000 free copies when you first were writing. That's a pretty important detail. I think that the person you were replying to was talking about putting out a book, doing NO MARKETING OF ANY KIND, and having it take off. I can only think of one book that did that - Cake, A Love Story. Other than that...


Hopeless. Colleen Hoover.

As for me? I sold 2,000 books at $3.99 each my first month with no marketing, just setting the first book free for 3 days. My stuff kept getting picked up by various bloggers and things after that. Yeah, BookBub picked me up. When you do well and your stuff looks good, people pick you up.

You talked about doing "no marketing." I did no marketing. I set the book free, and BookBub picked it up. That can happen when you have a hooky cover and title and blurb and good reviews.

I thought it was all luck too. But then I wrote another series that was very different, and got no special love or luck from anybody. It's sold extremely well. Book 1, which is a genre mashup, is actually #600 or something right now, in fact, and the book's four years old. (And yep, it's in Amazon Prime. It's in there because it's always sold well, and it has good reviews.) After a while, if you keep getting lucky, you realize that you're actually good at something. There's no shame in that. I'm not good at everything. Just this one thing.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> You left out the part about BookBub picking you up, out of the blue, which helped you give away 93,000 free copies when you first were writing. That's a pretty important detail. I think that the person you were replying to was talking about putting out a book, doing NO MARKETING OF ANY KIND, and having it take off. I can only think of one book that did that - Cake, A Love Story. Other than that...


Plenty of people get Bookbub promos and don't last. And those promos aren't 'out of the blue'.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> Hopeless. Colleen Hoover.
> 
> As for me? I sold 2,000 books at $3.99 each my first month with no marketing, just setting the first book free for 3 days. My stuff kept getting picked up by various bloggers and things after that. Yeah, BookBub picked me up. When you do well and your stuff looks good, people pick you up.
> 
> ...


I think you're talking about Slammed, Colleen Hoover's first book. She published in 2011, back in the day when you could make a mint just by being picked up by certain bloggers, which happened for her. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well these days. Cake is the only recent one that I can think of that took off with no marketing, no fanfare, and it was a debut. The author of that book has no clue what happened. I suppose it happens other times - we just don't hear about it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I used to be on these very boards not that many years ago now and reading the posts by people who did very well one after the other. I was here in 2009/2010 when Amanda Hocking took off. I remember Zoe Winters and when Konrath used to post here. I watched people succeed and I, too, sat here thinking "why not me?!" because it wasn't like I wasn't working hard and writing a lot and trying.  I started self-publishing almost exactly 7 years ago (next month is my 7 year anniversary) and was desperate to make any money at it for a long time. I thought all I needed to do what keep going, keep publishing things, and I'd be okay. After a few years of that, though, I realized that what I was doing wasn't working at all. What little successes I'd had along the way I had piddled away listening to bad advice and trying to be in this for the marathon/long haul.

I remember my biggest moment of "why not me?" which became the seed for me to finally stop doing the things that had failed me over and over. It was a post by Courtney Milan, I believe (I tried to find it, but I didn't bookmark it and I might be miss-remembering who posted it but it was a long-timer here).  In it, she detailed stages of self-publishing success. Stage 0 was where I was at... trying to get any sales at all, scrabbling in the 200k+ rankings, no mailing list to speak of etc. Stage 1 was consistently getting a sale or two a day, mailing list is building, but nobody knows who you are yet. It went on from there. I remember it because she talked about how the hardest thing is to get from stage 0 to stage 1 and stage 1 to stage 2, and that going up from there was much easier because you would finally have a foundation.

That post made me cry. I sat at my desk staring at the screen and cried like the world was ending because I was that frustrated. I didn't know how to get to stage 1, much less stages 2 or 3, or 4 (4 is about where I am now I think, I can release books high but not into top 100 quite yet, I have a few thousand people on my list, I make 6 figures etc).  I was literally yelling at the computer screen because I was so mad and depressed. I mean, I had nearly 40 products up across four different genres. Why wasn't I seeing any business growth? Why was selling 5 things a month the place where I seemed to be forever?

That was the beginning of waking up, for me. A few other things happened at the same time (I learned some hard truths about people I had trusted the advice of etc) that propelled me to stop wondering "why are they so special? why  not me? Don't I work hard enough?" and start thinking about how I could do things differently. Start looking at what those who had the success I wanted were doing. Getting from nowhere to somewhere seemed impossible still,  but I had a map, a blueprint built off tons of helpful blog posts and posts right here on Kboards that showed me a path I hadn't taken.

Anyway, I'm typing out a novel here... but obviously I took a different path, copied a lot of the things I saw actual successful people doing, and got out of stage 0 (I jumped right over stage 1, too, I think, ha).

I guess the TLDR of this is: Many of us who are making 100k or more from our fiction writing were not doing so just a few years ago. Many of us struggled and wondered "why them? Why not me?"  Wallowing in that frustration doesn't help. If you want what someone else has, look at how they got it. I promise, the keys are there.  I don't want to go into the "talent" argument, but you won't know if you have what it takes until you try and if what you are doing isn't getting the results you want, stop doing that and try something different, even if it is scary. The great thing about being at the bottom of the mountain is that you have nowhere to fall, right?


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

I wasn't here back then but that sounds a lot like a talk Courtney Milan gave at RMFW a couple years back where she had this drawing of a big hill you had to climb and said a beginning writer is like a paper airplane at the bottom of that hill and each sale is a direct result of the author's efforts until you can get up that hill and you blow on the paper airplane and it goes up a little bit but falls right back down if you don't have ongoing support pushing it up that hill.  It was a good presentation.

And Annie, yours is one of the success stories on here I like the best because it shows that you can find success by being willing to adapt until you find what works.  You were a great writer long before you saw your current level of success.  (I was never a member on the WOTF forums but I remember you posting on there and seeing a DSF story you wrote about a girl and a lake and a dragon(?) and thinking "wow, that was amazing.")


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I remember that post of Courtney's: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=176583.0


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Deblombardi said:


> I think you're talking about Slammed, Colleen Hoover's first book. She published in 2011, back in the day when you could make a mint just by being picked up by certain bloggers, which happened for her. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well these days. Cake is the only recent one that I can think of that took off with no marketing, no fanfare, and it was a debut. The author of that book has no clue what happened. I suppose it happens other times - we just don't hear about it.


All right. Whichever Colleen Hoover book. At this point, it always seems to devolve to, "That doesn't happen anymore. Nowadays . . ." Which may or may not be true. Maybe bloggers talked up Colleen's book. BookBub picked up my book. Neither of us did "marketing" to make that happen. We wrote (very different) books that worked for their time and their market. Colleen did a lot better than me, but I didn't do too shabbily.

As Annie says--you can think, "That's not fair; I'm a way better writer than Rosalind, and I'm putting out three times as many books as she does." Which may be true. The few times I've submitted my books to independent review sites, they don't do better than "very good," because I think I write a little weird for romance. But as Annie says, or as Dr. Phil would say--how's that working out for you? What good is it doing anybody to think, "That should be me"? Maybe it works if it forces you, as it did Annie, to take a good hard look at where she wasn't hitting on all cylinders. Maybe you're stubbornly clinging to something you think SHOULD work, but it doesn't. Maybe there are tweaks that will get you there. Or maybe it's a sea change that's required.

I think it was one of the "Indies Who Sell" podcasters who said to me recently that one way indies spin their wheels is to look at what "crap" some bestselling novel is and cite it as proof that quality doesn't matter. Seeing that, what she and her co-podcaster did was to dissect the work of indies who sold to see WHY. What was it about those people's books that resonated with their audience? Because something did. Marketing can bump a book up artificially, but it doesn't give a book the magic. It doesn't give it legs. They wanted to see where those "legs" came from. The legs are the key.

That podcast, by the way interviewed me, Annie, Michael J. Sullivan, and a bunch of other folks. Worth a listen, maybe, even if just for the stories of the author(s) they've interviewed who write in your own genre. The presenters do a good job, I think, of analyzing that "why." There may be something to be learned from even the "crappiest" of bestsellers.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Dpock said:


> Though it's really not meant as one. It takes skill to sense the market pulse just right and know, regardless of ability, exactly what degree of your talent to employ. I console myself by thinking even Shakespeare knew when to reel himself in.


I'm starting to appreciate the truth in this since I started a pen name. I've done decently as an indie writing the books I love, attempting to fit them into market boxes, under my own name. Likewise, I did okay in traditional YA publishing with the same strategy. But two months ago I was reading a romance book that I really enjoyed. Couldn't find much else quite like it to read. Meanwhile, my sales were slumping, so I thought, "What the heck, I'm just going to write a tropey book fast like the one I just read and not stress over it." I wrote it in 10 days, bought a premade, threw it up there at full price with one AMS ad.

...9 years of writing for a living and I've NEVER had a book truly "take off" until now. Yesterday I briefly achieved an actual author rank under my pen name which I've never had before even with promo. And these really engaged people keep joining my author Facebook page.

I'm really happy and grateful that I have a book doing so well and obviously, I've been making a living as a writer for 9 years and treating it like a fulltime job for 12. All the time I've put into learning both craft and "the market" have surely contributed. I certainly am no overnight success. But at the same time...it's a little AGONIZING that my ten previous books I poured my heart and soul into have done somewhere between terribly and like, PRETTY well. And some bit of fun fluff sells like hotcakes. So I guess I've learned to not feel like writing fun fluff is "stooping"; it is in fact exactly what people want. I will certainly be banking the money pen name is earning so I can spend more writing the things I love when/if she burns out, though...


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I remember that post of Courtney's: http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=176583.0


Yes! I was searching the wrong keywords. Thank you. It was this post that made me cry, yep.

I remembered 5 phases, but looks like I'm Phase 3 cusping on Phase 4, hah. I skipped phase 1 and 2 basically starting from somewhere worse than phase 1.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm kind of glad that I was such an idiot when I started. I meandered into everything and learned as I went. Sometimes I did something good. More often than not I did something boneheaded. I didn't know about Kboards until I was already making 7K a month. I didn't know about any Facebook groups until long after that. Heck, I didn't even advertise for the first time until I was almost three years in to this endeavor. I made a ton of errors (some I'm stuck with forever) but learned and improved from there.
I do think it's more difficult to get a foothold these days. I also think it's more difficult to keep what you've worked so hard to accomplish. It's a different world, a different publishing landscape. This is one of those workplaces where you have to adapt or die. Those willing to adapt, like Annie, succeed. Those who refuse don't. One thing I do notice is that those who constantly blame outside forces and focus on things they can't control, they're the ones who can't seem to move forward.
That doesn't mean people aren't making huge breakthroughs. Look at Sarah Denzil with Silent Child. She knocked it out of the park this year and hit number one in the entire store -- and stayed there for some time. She published in January and is still number 28 in the store, and that's after moving her price to $2.99. Anni Taylor did amazing things with The Game You Played last year. It's not impossible to hit it big. It's not impossible to find amazing success. It is work, though. Pointing fingers at other authors and saying "you had it easy" isn't going to help.
Put in the work, be willing to adapt, study the market. Will you absolutely hit if you do all of those things? No. You have a much better shot, though.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Annie B said:


> I remember my biggest moment of "why not me?" which became the seed for me to finally stop doing the things that had failed me over and over. It was a post by Courtney Milan, I believe (I tried to find it, but I didn't bookmark it and I might be miss-remembering who posted it but it was a long-timer here). In it, she detailed stages of self-publishing success. Stage 0 was where I was at... trying to get any sales at all, scrabbling in the 200k+ rankings, no mailing list to speak of etc. Stage 1 was consistently getting a sale or two a day, mailing list is building, but nobody knows who you are yet. It went on from there. I remember it because she talked about how the hardest thing is to get from stage 0 to stage 1 and stage 1 to stage 2, and that going up from there was much easier because you would finally have a foundation.
> 
> That was the beginning of waking up, for me. A few other things happened at the same time (I learned some hard truths about people I had trusted the advice of etc) that propelled me to stop wondering "why are they so special? why not me? Don't I work hard enough?" and start thinking about how I could do things differently. Start looking at what those who had the success I wanted were doing. Getting from nowhere to somewhere seemed impossible still, but I had a map, a blueprint built off tons of helpful blog posts and posts right here on Kboards that showed me a path I hadn't taken.


This whole post is great. Thank you for posting.


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

Annie B said:


> That was the beginning of waking up, for me. A few other things happened at the same time (I learned some hard truths about people I had trusted the advice of etc) that propelled me to stop wondering "why are they so special? why not me? Don't I work hard enough?" and start thinking about how I could do things differently. Start looking at what those who had the success I wanted were doing. Getting from nowhere to somewhere seemed impossible still, but I had a map, a blueprint built off tons of helpful blog posts and posts right here on Kboards that showed me a path I hadn't taken.
> 
> Anyway, I'm typing out a novel here... but obviously I took a different path, copied a lot of the things I saw actual successful people doing, and got out of stage 0 (I jumped right over stage 1, too, I think, ha).
> 
> I guess the TLDR of this is: Many of us who are making 100k or more from our fiction writing were not doing so just a few years ago. Many of us struggled and wondered "why them? Why not me?" Wallowing in that frustration doesn't help. If you want what someone else has, look at how they got it. I promise, the keys are there. I don't want to go into the "talent" argument, but you won't know if you have what it takes until you try and if what you are doing isn't getting the results you want, stop doing that and try something different, even if it is scary. The great thing about being at the bottom of the mountain is that you have nowhere to fall, right?


This, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the best posts I've ever read on Kboards. I've read through this thread multiple times, and it's littered with excuse after excuse (man, that word has a negative connotation, doesn't it?), petty comments, backhanded compliments, and subtle insults that are driving me up a wall. Instead of getting down on myself and making excuses for why I don't spend more hours a week on my writing (married, two young kids, demanding job, etc.), I read the article and looked at it as a positive. I took heart in knowing that I accomplished what I've accomplished working only 5-10 hours a week. This article, like Courtney's post did for you, laid out a simple framework for how I can achieve future success. Everyone will take something different from the data, but for me, it was as easy as realizing that sometimes it's as simple as working more hours.


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## MSimms (Jun 9, 2017)

I've been reading a lot of Nicholas Erik's ultimate marketing guide, combined with this thread and it got me to crunching numbers.

His recommendation for a full-timer is 4+, 60,000+ word releases per year. I've seen it thrown around in the threads that the more releases above 4, the more likely you are to achieve sustainable full-time income, and perhaps eventually approach 100k.

The assumptions I used below reflect Nicholas recommendation and what I imagine a hypothetically imagined reasonable person might look like. I know my own speed is faster, so I use different numbers in my calculations. - I know some will be slower, or want to write longer books, so that would change things too. Regardless: Based on a reasonable speed, and using Nicolas' advice as a benchmark, a weekend writer could approach the "draft word" output required to generate full-time income with consistent effort.

What is very striking to me is that "full-timers" should be able to output staggering numbers of words in a year with consistent daily output. - I come from a world where billable time is tracked by the 0.1 of an hour, and I think that effects the way I look at time and tracking.










I also put together a hypothetical contrast putting the provocatively named "5,000 words per hour" into the model. I hope Mr. Fox takes this in the spirit it's intended (I'm a fan!) if he happens to see it:










As much as it seems ridiculous. - In order for him to complete Destroyer in the 21 day novel challenge it would have had to come in under that 2.4 weeks to complete draft.

I'd also go out on a limb and say that 5000 words per hour is not sustainable, but could it be when you only have to write like that for an hour each day? Or maybe 2500 / hr for 2 hours each day?

My images and paragraphs wandered a bit above, so:

TLR Overall my intention was to show that, when I broke down the words necessary to be a 100k author. Looking at some of the underlying variables that are going to affect those words. I found that many different styles of commitment to daily writing, speed, and length can produce the raw output necessary to become a successful author. - It filled me with excitement.

So far I'm 5,000 words in to my outlined project, and I'm learning more every day here.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

JaclynDolamore said:


> *And some bit of fun fluff sells like hotcakes. *So I guess I've learned to not feel like writing fun fluff is "stooping"; it is in fact exactly what people want. I will certainly be banking the money pen name is earning so I can spend more writing the things I love when/if she burns out, though...


Of course it does. Anything geared to the taste of the masses, be it Big Macs or pulp fiction, will sell in masses, as long as it meets the most basic criteria. I wonder what will happen to many the moment that machine-written books get out of the uncanny valley. I'm rather sure of Amazon already working on something like this. They have all the data.


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## Jenny Schwartz (Mar 4, 2011)

Annie B - I remember Courtney's post. Thanks for the reminder - and your own great post just now.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> That's not really talent, though, is it? I've seen some folks who can act their ass off and do great at auditions, but utterly stink up the joint once they're on stage. I think that's more a confidence thing.
> 
> More than talent, I think a writer wanting a career out of writing needs to be persistent, patient, and be willing to constantly learn. Self-confidence doesn't hurt, either. No one owes us a living from writing. We have to each go and get it.


Showmanship is a skill. Go to some local shows and check out tiny, new bands then go see a band who's been around for awhile. Alt rock is not known for its showmanship, but there's still a difference.

I think it's a good metaphor. To be an indie author you need skill with your pen (instrument) and you need to be able to package and marketing your book right (showmanship).



Rosalind J said:


> Hopeless. Colleen Hoover.
> 
> As for me? I sold 2,000 books at $3.99 each my first month with no marketing, just setting the first book free for 3 days. My stuff kept getting picked up by various bloggers and things after that. Yeah, BookBub picked me up. When you do well and your stuff looks good, people pick you up.
> 
> You talked about doing "no marketing." I did no marketing. I set the book free, and BookBub picked it up. That can happen when you have a hooky cover and title and blurb and good reviews.


I have to disagree with you, Rosalind. A hooky book is not enough, because no one can get hooked if no one can see your books . You need visibility somehow. I know bc I've launched books with no visibility and had them DOA then seen a huge turnaround once I started pushing traffic they way. It be organic visibility via Amazon, but that is easier to come by in certain gets and for certain people. It's harder to come by more and more. Does that mean people who stayed publishing four years ago are lucky? Are people in less crowded genres luckier? Are people who's genres get swarmed after a KU change (say ask the erotica writers moving into sexy romance and categorizing as NA after KU 2.0) unlucky? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. But there's certainly an element of luck in visibility.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> Showmanship is a skill. Go to some local shows and check out tiny, new bands then go see a band who's been around for awhile. Alt rock is not known for its showmanship, but there's still a difference.
> 
> I think it's a good metaphor. To be an indie author you need skill with your pen (instrument) and you need to be able to package and marketing your book right (showmanship).
> 
> I have to disagree with you, Rosalind. A hooky book is not enough, because no one can get hooked if no one can see your books . You need visibility somehow. I know bc I've launched books with no visibility and had them DOA then seen a huge turnaround once I started pushing traffic they way. It be organic visibility via Amazon, but that is easier to come by in certain gets and for certain people. It's harder to come by more and more. Does that mean people who stayed publishing four years ago are lucky? Are people in less crowded genres luckier? Are people who's genres get swarmed after a KU change (say ask the erotica writers moving into sexy romance and categorizing as NA after KU 2.0) unlucky? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. But there's certainly an element of luck in visibility.


But you see, I didn't so much write a hooky book. I wrote a hooky concept. I knew it was hooky. That's why I wrote it. And you could call my niche uncrowded. You could call it ZERO other people writing it. A few people are now, but it's a hard thing to know well enough to write it.

That's the thing I take credit for. I wasn't "lucky" that I chose to write that. I wrote that because I knew it was a killer concept for a romance novel, strong enough to overcome my first-book mistakes. And then I wrote a couple more of those books, because it turned out to be as cool a concept as I'd thought. I knew that even before I published. I knew it when I quit the day job two weeks into starting to write my first fiction. I'm NEVER sure of anything. But I knew this.

I realize that's hindsight, but it's the only time in my whole life when I've been confident like that, and I'm turning 58. And I was right. I sold my first book a half hour or so after I uploaded it to Amazon, and to say I had "no platform" is to put it mildly. I had one Facebook "fan." My best friend. So that--I do take credit for that. That wasn't luck.

I don't think I'll ever be a gigantic seller, quite honestly. I'm a good writer with a strong voice, and I tell stories some readers enjoy. But I write a little quirky, I write too long, I have no future book ideas, and I don't write that fast. I don't write any 5,000 words an hour. On a great day, like today, when I'm almost at the end of a book, I write 5,000 words a day. I write about four or five long novels a year and pray that the next novel will show up, and that's not the blueprint for indie success in romance.

But I do fine. There are all sorts of "successful" levels at this, as others have pointed out, from whatever-a-year-works-to-make-life-better all the way up to . . . whatever the top is. What I love about this job is that I get to use all of my brain and all of my heart to do it. It's the only thing I can say that about. And yes, it's enabled me to have a better life, and to make a better life for others. But it's also allowed me to share what used to be my silly romantic daydreams, the ones I'd never have imagined could possibly be "books," with people who really enjoy the escape. That's what I like second best, after the satisfaction of writing. That's plenty.


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## LondonCalling (Dec 19, 2014)

Now I'm conflicted as to continue with my low-budget self or break out my credit card on editors and covers.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Crystal_ said:


> Showmanship is a skill. Go to some local shows and check out tiny, new bands then go see a band who's been around for awhile. Alt rock is not known for its showmanship, but there's still a difference.
> 
> I think it's a good metaphor. To be an indie author you need skill with your pen (instrument) and you need to be able to package and marketing your book right (showmanship).
> 
> I have to disagree with you, Rosalind. A hooky book is not enough, because no one can get hooked if no one can see your books . You need visibility somehow. I know bc I've launched books with no visibility and had them DOA then seen a huge turnaround once I started pushing traffic they way. It be organic visibility via Amazon, but that is easier to come by in certain gets and for certain people. It's harder to come by more and more. Does that mean people who stayed publishing four years ago are lucky? Are people in less crowded genres luckier? Are people who's genres get swarmed after a KU change (say ask the erotica writers moving into sexy romance and categorizing as NA after KU 2.0) unlucky? I don't know. It doesn't really matter. But there's certainly an element of luck in visibility.


FWIW, I agree with you there. Initial visibility, to me, comes either by luck or by marketing skills. You can have the best book in the world, the hookiest, can't-put-it-down book ever, but if you don't have visibility, you're not selling. At least, in the crowded genres, that's true. Once you get eyeballs on the book, then it's all on the book - the voice, the concept, the whatever. If the book sucks, visibility isn't going to help. If the book is great, then you have a foothold. But to get those initial eyeballs on the book...I just don't see how you're going to do it unless you market or you have a dose of pixie dust somehow.

Sometimes I think that the whole concept of luck gets misconstrued - like if you dare say that luck plays a part, you're saying that success is all luck, which it's not. Success is hard work and talent and a strong voice and all of that. But to get the INITIAL eyeballs on your work - yeah, I do think that luck plays a part.

I've said it before, and I still believe it's true - to get traction in today's market, you either have to get on the promo treadmill or the writing treadmill or get the pixie dust. I've managed to get visibility by switching to a less-crowded genre, combined with making all my books a pre-order that gets traction before the release, combined with producing a book a month. Unfortunately, I'm going on vacation in July, so July will be my first month in awhile that I don't have a new release. I fully expect everything to come crashing to a screeching halt in July because of it. I guess them's the breaks....


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MSimms said:


> I'd also go out on a limb and say that 5000 words per hour is not sustainable, but could it be when you only have to write like that for an hour each day? Or maybe 2500 / hr for 2 hours each day?


I doubt there are many writers typing 5000 words an hour consistently. I'm sure there are some that can write 80+ words per minute, but not a lot. I think the writers seeing that sort of regular hourly output are using dication software, and my hat's off to them. I've tried dictating and I can't quite grok it to make it work.

Math is fun. Dean Wesley Smith's math posts are always worth looking at from a productivity standpoint. 4x 60k novels a year is a paltry 250k words a year, less than 700 words a day. I write 1300-1500 words in an average 30 minute sprint. So to hit that goal, I'd have to work less than half an hour a day, every day. Or take weekends off and work a little longer (but still less than an hour).

Shoot, if I did just one writing sprint a day, 1400 words, I'd cross the half-million mark in a year. That's five beefy 100k novels or a bunch of smaller works. I've hit a million+ words the last two years, so this goal is easily attainable for me. Other writers work faster and harder, others work slower. It's all maths.  Find the sweet spot that works for you, project ahead, and write fearlessly.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Jim Johnson said:


> "Titus Andronicus" notwithstanding, though I guess he was writing to market with that one.


Oh I hate _Titus Andronicus_!_ Macbeth _was written to market; that is, it was written to please the new king who was from Scotland, believed in witches and magic, and had an ancestor named MacDuff. It did the trick, too. The Lord Admiral's Men became the King James' Men. Pretty much all the Bard's plays were written to market and were rewrites of other's work.

I love this thread. Not only does it inspire me, it gives me ideas for more books. So thank you everyone!


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

CynthiaClay said:


> Oh I hate _Titus Andronicus_!_ Macbeth _was written to market; that is, it was written to please the new king who was from Scotland, believed in witches and magic, and had an ancestor named MacDuff. It did the trick, too. The Lord Admiral's Men became the King James' Men. Pretty much all the Bard's plays were written to market and were rewrites of other's work.
> 
> I love this thread. Not only does it inspire me, it gives me ideas for more books. So thank you everyone!


Heh! Different kind of market in those days. I can only imagine a writer nowadays wanting to write a novel to earn the patronage of POTUS.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Chris Fox said:


> Right, but that's not how people often use it. Especially here. Outlier often gets wielded like a club (not that I think David was doing that). Having now been hit by that club a few times I get why people are sensitive. It sucks having your direct experience dismissed based not on the fact that you failed, but that you succeeded too well.


When you are a woman, they don't call you an outlier. They call you an anomaly. 

May I succeed too well!


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> What I get is aggravated that successful authors spend time trying to help and the advice, which is often applicable to every writer in every genre, is summarily dismissed because of the success of the person saying it. THEN there is thread after thread complaining about lack of sales, when everything people need to know is right here but some refuse to listen.
> 
> Someone said earlier that if every successful author made a list of 10 things we do, we'd probably have 7 or more in common. I totally agree with that statement because I know several seven figure authors and a ton of mid to upper six figure authors and we all share similar work habits and business plans. To say that someone highly successful can no longer give advice to new authors is basically saying they can no longer remember two, three, five years ago. I doubt any of us has forgotten what it took to get here. We're still in the trenches. It doesn't get easier.


Some of us are listening very attentively, our ears growing so big they stretch way above our heads. I am so appreciative of these posts of advice!


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## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

danpadavona said:


> This is an excellent point and a good example of how statistics can be misleading. I assume plenty of authors hit 100k and quit their jobs to concentrate on writing more per day, whereas if you take the study at face value you will assume authors hit 100k because they quit their jobs and wrote more per day.


I didn't so much quit my job, as my job quit me. It evaporated along with 1000s of others and the town's major employer when Ford decided German workers were cheaper and more interesting. I agree with both of those BTW. Our management had been running us into the ground at full speed for years by burying us under spreadsheets.

So my job went away at a point when my books were doing the up-down thing. The ups were almost enough to live on (if I paid off my mortgage first with Ford's golden handshake due me after 32 years in the job) and the downs meant not eating every second day (BONUS! I needed to lose weight anyway, and I did. I lost half my body weight--don't worry, it was perfect. I needed to lose it)

So I'm half the man I used to be (about the size of a slightly overweight NORMAL man of (back then 47) and desperate for a new book release) when my boat comes in. Book 4 of my Merkiaari Wars series releases and hits it big. It was my seventh book overall. I gulp and whimper, and put all the money back in by investing in audiobooks. Those hit massively when audible still had 50-90% escalating royalties (I got them via Joe Nobody's service back then, and was grandfathered in later when the UK entered the ACX fold)

I add more books, more print, and more audiobooks. Since then income rises yearly until I enter the hallowed (and echo-ey) halls of the overnight successes--(AKA outliers). I started in 2001 with a single book self-pubbed in print, I hit the 6 figure boundary thingy 2015, and managed to just about cling to it for two years.


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## VanessaC (Jan 14, 2017)

CynthiaClay said:


> Some of us are listening very attentively, our ears growing so big they stretch way above our heads. I am so appreciative of these posts of advice!


I second this - I have nothing substantive to contribute to this thread (not published yet) but I am deeply appreciative of all the fantastic posts from successful, experienced authors. The willingness to share experience, information and insight is, in my view, the best thing about kboards and the reason I haunt these boards when I really should be working (like now!).


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

I actually wrote a blog post a couple of years ago on the idea of success bias. The challenge with gleaning advice from success stories is that what-worked-for-me is very often not universal. It could be something everyone could do, but only worked at a certain time in the past and won't work now. (Like, when the market was less flooded.) It could be the equivalent of a professional baseball player's advice on how to hit a home run: just hit the ball really hard. (We can all hit the ball hard, but very few of us can hit it 350 feet in the air.)

The challenge of writing a book--a single book--that ends up being super-successful is incredibly daunting, despite which the best advice anybody can get is: write a book everyone wants to read. We all have different ways of going about that.

And yes, that's sort of useless advice, but every level of detail beyond "write something everyone wants to read" is going to run into people who didn't do that one thing and still succeeded. It may be the writing equivalent of the anthropic principle: we know the successful books are the books everyone wants to read because everyone is reading them.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Maybe I'll start a thread when I have some more things to say about my recent move, but I just moved to Mexico...

So another way to become like a "100K author" even if you're earning substantially less is to go to the third world.

I got offered a job yesterday (I wasn't even looking) to teach at an English school, so I might work part time just as a bit of a safety net and also to meet people (and maybe learn some Spanish).

But, that said, if you've achieved even a small success with your early books, you can parlay that small amount into a full-time writers life (which allows more time to write) if you move out from an expensive place to a cheap place.

I'm not making 100K but my life without a huge monthly nut may actually mean I have more flexibility than a lot of people stuck in a corporate job with a mortgage or rent and a car payment, etc...


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

GeneDoucette said:


> I actually wrote a blog post a couple of years ago on the idea of success bias. The challenge with gleaning advice from success stories is that what-worked-for-me is very often not universal. It could be something everyone could do, but only worked at a certain time in the past and won't work now.


Agreed!  And then there are those of us whose "success stories" read more like a playbook of what NOT to do. I went full-time last month. Finally. It took me six years to get there - since the mean in their survey seems to be about 3 years, does that make me an outlier? 

Along the way, I crossed genres. I made up new genres that nobody really wanted to read. I wrote serials just as KU1 was dying. I was inconsistent in terms of writing and publishing schedules. I do my own cover art (which has finally improved, but some of my early covers were not so good). If I were to write about my experience as an indie publisher, it would probably read as a laundry list of things to avoid.

But I persisted, and now I am doing this full time.

If there is one single constant thread through virtually every success story that has lasted more than a year or two, I think it is persistence.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

JaydenHunter said:


> Maybe I'll start a thread when I have some more things to say about my recent move, but I just moved to Mexico...
> 
> So another way to become like a "100K author" even if you're earning substantially less is to go to the third world.
> 
> ...


First off Jayden - best of luck.  I've seen you post about this adventure on FB, and I think it's awesome. I hope it turns out to be everything you want it to be for your career. Just remember to do the work you went there to do. Don't get TOO side-tracked. 

I've known lots of people who have done similar things. Ten years ago, I was heavily into indie game design. I had a friend who packed up his life and moved out to some prairie house in the middle of nowhere with his wife. They had enough savings to buy the house outright. It was cheap to live there. They moved there to cut costs and run their indie MMORPG business. They did great for a lot of years (I think he eventually sold the company and moved on to other things). Around the same time, there was a great article written by another game developer about "right -sizing" your life.

The theory being that we often increase our spending to match our available income. If we're making $80k a year at a comfy day job, we build up monthly expenses which make earning $40k a year seem impossible to survive. But often the *quality of life* can increase when going from a higher income job one dislikes to a lower income job one loves. The transition can be hard because it feels like you're giving up a lot. But as Jayden is demonstrating, often the benefits can vastly outweigh the difficulties.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

MSimms said:


> I also put together a hypothetical contrast putting the provocatively named "5,000 words per hour" into the model. I hope Mr. Fox takes this in the spirit it's intended (I'm a fan!) if he happens to see it:
> 
> As much as it seems ridiculous. - In order for him to complete Destroyer in the 21 day novel challenge it would have had to come in under that 2.4 weeks to complete draft.
> 
> I'd also go out on a limb and say that 5000 words per hour is not sustainable, but could it be when you only have to write like that for an hour each day? Or maybe 2500 / hr for 2 hours each day?


Presumably you've read the book. I said quite clearly that I don't believe 5,000 words per hour is sustainable for most authors. The book was written when I was full time, and my personal quest was reaching that 5k because I only had an hour a day to do it. These days? I'm full time. I average 3,600 words an hour, with no aspirations of pushing it any higher. My writing is typically finished in two hours or less, though if I'm puttering about it can take longer.

The important take away, the one that people tend to like to ignore, is that you need to _write consistently_. Ignore the click bait title. Ignore how many words every other person in the world is writing. How many words are YOU writing, and are you doing it every day?

One of the chief differences between people who do this full time and people who do not is that we've developed consistent systems for both marketing and production. Are there exceptions to that? Of course. But as in all things, if you look at enough data points you will spot trends. Most authors making a good living have a steady production schedule, and produce well-honed books in the same genre to build momentum.

Even Annie, who breaks many of the norms for others of us doing this 6 figure thing, will tell you how quickly her income drops if she isn't putting out new releases.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

JaydenHunter said:


> Maybe I'll start a thread when I have some more things to say about my recent move, but I just moved to Mexico...


Down the road, I plan to spend half the year there around Playa Del Carmen. I know an author there who says she has trouble spending more than $1500 a month. She even has a maid and a gardener.



> So another way to become like a "100K author" even if you're earning substantially less is to go to the third world.


That's very relevant to the discussion. Making a $100k a year is great, especially if you can put half or more of it away for a rainy day. If you need it just to survive, that's a different story.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I do better, for the record, writing long books and releasing fairly infrequently for my genre than I believe I would writing shorter, less complex things and releasing monthly. My somewhat "different" books are what has made me stand out a bit and get some visibility. 

Right now, I'm finishing a book that will be about 115K and will have taken me 5 months, due to some life stuff. Oddly, 2017 has also been by far my most profitable year ever. I've found that KU keeps my income much more consistent despite infrequent releases and not much marketing. For other people, the opposite is true. Many folks say that KU demands constant releases. I've found the opposite.

I do believe that the trick is to figure out what works best for YOU. It may not be at all what works for most people, or many people. It's hard to have confidence to forge your own path. At the beginning, when I was selling far above my expectations (I sold 110K books in my first 11 months on 6 books total, pretty much the only sales stat I have because I put it on a sign for myself)--that was when I was first aware of writers' forums and so forth. I'd see all these things you were "supposed" to do and be filled with self-doubt. But then I kept thinking--this is the way that works for ME, and it IS working. So I'm just going to keep doing it. And it's kept working.

Would doing things "the right way" help me even more? I don't think so. I've built a readership that likes my stuff for what it is, and what it is takes thinking time. I don't have book ideas, so it takes me three weeks or so after I finish the last book to think up the new one. And then it (normally, not this time) takes me about 6-8 weeks to write a 100-150K book. (I do almost all my editing along the way.) A lot of that time is mulling things over. I've gotten a little faster over the 23 books, but not that much faster. 

I detail my process just to say--people are different. Goals are different, backgrounds are different, processes are different, and books surely are different. There really, truly isn't "one way." Yes, consistently successful authors have some things in common--the things the article mentions, the bare-bones things. They do release regularly (though not always at any blazing speeds). They produce edited work. They have professional covers. They're working consistently. But beyond that? I'll bet that when you drill down, you'll see major differences.

Lots of fiction audiences. Lots of styles. Lots of room to do what works for you and find your readership.


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

GeneDoucette said:


> I'm a six figure author as of this year, and I have a full time day job and I only have 12 titles right now. (13 if you count an anthology.) I'm a long way from figuring out how to sustain it. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if I can succeed by following my bliss and writing only what I feel like writing.


I'm just ecstatic when a thread like this comes up and I see people like yourself doing so well. Every couple of weeks I get that... "But what if I'm just wasting my time?" feeling.

It's encourages us to keep chugging ahead and to put out the next book.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Dpock said:


> Down the road, I plan to spend half the year there around Playa Del Carmen. I know an author there who says she has trouble spending more than $1500 a month. She even has a maid and a gardener.
> 
> That's very relevant to the discussion. Making a $100k a year is great, especially if you can put half or more of it away for a rainy day. If you need it just to survive, that's a different story.


[

Really? I went to Playa Del Carmen on vacation last year and I think it works be easy to spend 2x that much. Or more. Those cenote tours are addictive.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

I just want to be the epic fantasy equivalent of Rosalind J.

That's all.

The rest of you can be 100k authors.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> I do better, for the record, writing long books and releasing fairly infrequently for my genre than I believe I would writing shorter, less complex things and releasing monthly. My somewhat "different" books are what has made me stand out a bit and get some visibility.


Do you write consistently? Because that's what I was trying to drive home. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're fairly consistent in your writing, since you publish multiple books a year.

When you say things like 'my income stays stable with no advertising and infrequent releases' it makes me cringe. I believe every author should do things in their own way, but I've also never, ever seen an author who's sales are constant without releasing regularly.

I realize that if I say up, you are inclined to say down. We're diametrically opposed on our writing philosophies, which is one of the reasons I enjoy reading your replies. Your path has been completely different than mine.

In this case, though, I disagree strongly enough to make an issue of it. Much of the backlash in this thread comes from successful authors who see you telling new authors that they can write whatever they want, as slow as they want, and they still have an upper six-figure pot of gold waiting at the end of it.

I get that you aren't trying to suggest that, but I also get that many new authors read things in that you never intended. As someone whose sold just a few books to writers, trust me when I say that. People see / read what they want, and the salient take aways from your post are write whatever the hell you want as infrequently as you want.

I disagree. Whatever you do, however you write...be consistent. Work your tail off to accumulate as many words as you can, and never stop working on your craft. Get your books out as quickly as YOU can manage, always with an eye for improvement.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> Do you write consistently? Because that's what I was trying to drive home. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're fairly consistent in your writing, since you publish multiple books a year.
> 
> When you say things like 'my income stays stable with no advertising and infrequent releases' it makes me cringe. I believe every author should do things in their own way, but I've also never, ever seen an author who's sales are constant without releasing regularly.
> 
> ...


This. All of this, plus, I'm sorry, but Rosalind isn't telling the whole story. In other threads, she talks about getting 15 BookBubs over the course of her career. That works out to, what, about 3 1/2 BookBubs a year, in contemporary romance no less, over 4 and a half years? That's marketing. That's advertising. It's also something that most people won't be able to achieve. It's great that her books are good enough to get that many BookBubs, and, yes, once you get the exposure, you have to have the chops. But, yeah, it's kinda nonsense when she says that she doesn't advertise.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Deblombardi said:


> You left out the part about BookBub picking you up, out of the blue, which helped you give away 93,000 free copies when you first were writing. That's a pretty important detail. I think that the person you were replying to was talking about putting out a book, doing NO MARKETING OF ANY KIND, and having it take off. I can only think of one book that did that - Cake, A Love Story. Other than that...


This is definitely an important detail. Another one would be my guess that this Bookbub ad came out a few years ago, back when landing such an ad gave a book legs. Nowadays, Bookbub's impact isn't nearly as long-lasting. Maybe it's because the field is more crowded, maybe Bookbub subscribers have become more jaded, who knows? But you'll have to admit, giving away 93,000 copies of your book -- especially back then -- put it in front of a lot of people, and certainly provided a big jolt for sales of subsequent books, which I believe in this case were already out.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my earlier post in this thread, that is, selling tens of thousands of copies of a debut novel by an unknown author in a very short time cannot possibly be attributed to luck. Some greater effort must occur -- a marketing effort, no less -- in order to place the book before so many people.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

> Do you write consistently? Because that's what I was trying to drive home. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're fairly consistent in your writing, since you publish multiple books a year.
> 
> When you say things like 'my income stays stable with no advertising and infrequent releases' it makes me cringe. I believe every author should do things in their own way, but I've also never, ever seen an author who's sales are constant without releasing regularly.
> 
> ...





> This. All of this, plus, I'm sorry, but Rosalind isn't telling the whole story. In other threads, she talks about getting 15 BookBubs over the course of her career. That works out to, what, about 3 1/2 BookBubs a year, in contemporary romance no less, over 4 and a half years? That's marketing. That's advertising. It's also something that most people won't be able to achieve. It's great that her books are good enough to get that many BookBubs, and, yes, once you get the exposure, you have to have the chops. But, yeah, it's kinda nonsense when she says that she doesn't advertise.


Describing one's own path isn't the same thing as telling other people to follow that path as well. I've been reading this whole thread, not sure I saw any point where Rosalind said she was providing any kind of how-to.

And guys, I only published one book in 2015 and one book in 2016. This year, if I'm very lucky, I'm going to put out two before the end of the year. Everything else has been republication of books I had with a publisher. (And before you ask, I promise, that publisher didn't do much of anything for me.) My lifeblood has been bookbub promos and audible success. I have zero control over the latter, and never even used my free promo codes. I'm not telling anybody to do what I did to succeed, because I don't know what I did.

I AM saying i did something different and succeeded.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't get it. I said I don't release monthly. I said I release regularly but relatively infrequently FOR MY GENRE. Normally every 2.5-3 months, which is slow compared to most indie romance bestsellers.

I didn't say I don't advertise. I said I do relatively little marketing. Typically I would do a price promo every three months or so around a release. Now I do them a bit more often. Sometimes.

In my post above, I said that most six figure authors release regularly though not always fast. As do I. That they write consistently, put out edited books, and have pro covers. As do I. I'm not sure where this pushback is coming from. 

Yes I think writing to hot trend is one way. I think it's much less likely to produce evergreen books by its very nature, but many authors do this and have good success. 

Many paths. Mine is only one. I follow it because I'm almost 60 and sometimes ill, because I started writing for deeply personal reasons, and because I am frankly independently wealthy at this point thanks partly to the rest of my career and a long marriage and California real estate, and partly due to early success at this. Somebody who is writing for their living and their family's living, who is 35 and healthy and energetic, will have vastly different priorities. 

I deeply believe that there is no one right way. Everybody's success is idiosyncratic in one way or another. Take what works for you and leave the rest. Chris Fox has a huge following and I don't, so clearly his advice is more genuinely useful, and that's wonderful. But please don't twist my words.  

I don't write the most words. I try to write my best words. That works better for me from a satisfaction point of view, but it takes personal-me longer. And now I have a book releasing July1, so I'll get back to it. 

And by the way, I had a free BookBub in mid-December that had a 2.5-month tail. 85k downloads on Amazon alone. It can still work. It doesn't always happen that way, but you bet it still can.


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> I don't get it. I said I don't release monthly. I said I release regularly but relatively infrequently FOR MY GENRE. Normally every 2.5-3 months, which is slow compared to most indie romance bestsellers.
> 
> I didn't say I don't advertise. I said I do relatively little marketing. Typically I would do a price promo every three months or so around a release. Now I do them a bit more often. Sometimes.
> 
> ...


And she just ignores my fanboy flattery.

I'm hurt.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> And she just ignores my fanboy flattery.
> 
> I'm hurt.


Haha, if I thought you'd read one of my romancey girly books, I'd be super flattered!


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> Haha, if I thought you'd read one of my romancey girly books, I'd be super flattered!


I'll read yours if you read mine.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

I apologize if you feel I'm twisting your words. I want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting you are an outlier, or that your advice isn't useful. You've given a lot to the people of this community, and you've done it for a very long time. I respect you immensely.



Rosalind J said:


> I don't write the most words. I try to write my best words.


As do I. Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. Both require consistency, and with enough consistency I can now produce quality words at extreme speed. That's not a style that fits everyone, and I'm not suggesting it's the only way. You're proof that there's another, as are many other authors on these boards. Still, 'slow' for you is still 4+ books a year. And those are long books. Surely you are writing consistently to achieve that.



Rosalind J said:


> I don't get it. I said I don't release monthly. I said I release regularly but relatively infrequently FOR MY GENRE. Normally every 2.5-3 months, which is slow compared to most indie romance bestsellers.
> 
> I didn't say I don't advertise. I said I do relatively little marketing. Typically I would do a price promo every three months or so around a release. Now I do them a bit more often.


You, in my opinion, downplayed the amount of effort required to do the things that we do. You downplayed the amount of marketing you've done. Ros, I've never, ever had a BookBub. Not one. I had to claw my way to 1,000,000 book sales. I've watched as authors they prefer are carried along by regular BookBubs, and I've cheered those authors on.

Since my books are not what BookBub is after, I have to choose alternative marketing methods. This is the category that most people here fall into. We don't get BookBubs, or if we do they're rare. If you're a new author entering the market today, BookBub cannot be your strategy. That's like playing the lottery.

As you can see from responses, that touched a nerve. Many of us have worked very, very hard to get where we are. I suspect you've worked just as hard, or even harder than almost everyone here. The tone of your posts don't suggest that at all. You make this look effortless.

That's not a slight. You amaze me. But, at least in my case, that's the reason for the pushback. Again, apologies if I was rude.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Lynn is a pseud--uh said:


> To me, the commonalities seem to be more of a correlation issue than one of causation


Except for the good writing/storytelling components. Without them, your success, if any, will depend on treadmilling or marketing, probably both.

Speaking hypothetically, the other thing is people want to write _their_ books and have _your_ success, but their work often lacks the key components mentioned in the above paragraph. This board should be the one you get to after (and not before) you've been assured of your writing chops.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I have never, ever said that quality and quantity are mutually exclusive. The opposite. I've said only that my particular books require thinking time. I've also never said that I don't write consistently. For my first three years of this, I worked every single day except when I was in the hospital and the first week after. Including Christmas. I finished my third book the day before I went into the hospital for extremely major surgery. 

This year has been different. I've spent many weeks at the hospital with my sister. This year, I've gone weeks and weeks without writing. Life happens. I've had to work hard to get this book done in the midst of physical and emotional upheaval. But then, I've said everywhere and always that I write consistently. 

But yes, my success came easily. And working hard at this is much more enjoyable than working hard at anything else. Most of the time, I don't work hard. I work easy. But I came to this after decades of writing various things and decades as an editor. I was a marketing director with expertise in marketing to elementary school teachers. Basically my target market. To me, the most important marketing happens before you publish the book. If you get all that right, the rest can be easy. If you don't, you'll push a boulder up a hill. 

If I have any advice, it's that. The most important marketing happens before you publish the book.
Genre
Hook
Writing
Voice
Series
Title (overlooked)
Series title
Cover that works with and reinforces title 
Blurb

My advice.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

You didn't outright say that quality and quantity are mutually exclusive, but you certainly implied it. If you'll go upthread you'll see a couple quotes from you, posted by other people. The first said that if you write a good book with a good cover / blurb, then BookBub will pick you up. The second said you don't write for quantity, you write for quality. The implication is that you can write for speed, or you can write for quality. If that's not your intention, then I'm reading too much into things. It certainly comes across that way to me.



Rosalind J said:


> I have never, ever said that quality and quantity are mutually exclusive. The opposite. I've said only that my particular books require thinking time. I've also never said that I don't write consistently. *For my first three years of this, I worked every single day except when I was in the hospital and the first week after. Including Christmas. I finished my third book the day before I went into the hospital for extremely major surgery*.
> 
> This year has been different. I've spent many weeks at the hospital with my sister. This year, I've gone weeks and weeks without writing. Life happens. I've had to work hard to get this book done in the midst of physical and emotional upheaval. But then, I've said everywhere and always that I write consistently.
> 
> ...


So, you worked your ass off for three years, and carefully studied a market that you very intentionally wrote to. You properly identified your audience, created a book you knew that audience would love, and very effectively marketed it to them using BookBub.

That is, almost exactly, what I advocate in Write To Market, with the additional piece that you need to love what you're writing (and you clearly did). You didn't just sit on a New Zealand beach dreaming up a good story. You dreamt up a story you knew would have a massive market, if you could execute it correctly.

This whole thread has been about commonalities between six-figure authors. Annie did the same pre-market research you did, which is why she believes her series took off. So did I with my Void Wraith trilogy. Not every author has, but many of the ones saying you can succeed by doing different things quietly have that in common.

Then you suggest that people can be very successful not writing to market, with you as an example. The problem is, you very much wrote to market. You did it like a pro with decades of marketing experience. You created a niche, based on a pre-existing market. Well done.


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## KevinMcLaughlin (Nov 11, 2010)

I think (again) that some people confuse the idea of writing to market (like Chris, Ros, and Annie all did) with *writing to trend*.

Writing to trend is "biker romances are hot; I'll spin out a couple of those real quick to get on the trope", or "aha! everyone is writing alien invasion stories set in the current day! I'll write one too and grab the tail of that success". Writing to trend is "<trope name> is hot - so I will write a <trope> book".

Writing to market is entirely different, and involves studying a specific group of readers; learning precisely the sorts of stories that group of readers most loves - what they want from a tale, what sort of characters intrigue them, what sort of places they want to explore. Once you know (or think you know) what that audience wants to be entertained by, you write that. That might or might not follow some already existing trend, but the trend itself isn't the relevant element with writing to market.

Writing to market is about identifying an audience; learning what they love to read; then carefully crafting a book that you know they will love.

Most successful books were written to market. In contrast, writing to a trend is a crap-shoot that may or may not pay off.

(Edited to add: Of course, like all definitions these are basically made up language so that people can understand one another.  I've noticed an ongoing problem when people discuss "writing to market" - that there are two distinct camps, which define the practice in two radically different ways. One describes it as I mentioned above. The other uses "write to market" when talking about what I called "writing to trend" above. Virtually ALL of the conflict over writing to market is caused by this miscommunication.)


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I suppose the difference is that I absolutely didn't do it consciously. I just thought of one of my usual daydreams for a long time and wondered if I could write a book. I didn't "study" a market. Not one bit. I'd been a reader all my life, and I'd read a fair amount of romance among other things. I wanted a book to escape into and I was getting dissatisfied with what was out there. I wrote mine for fun to see if I could and to have something to read. I loved it so I wrote two more. I wrote obsessively to escape pain and illness as I was pretty sick. Also because writing was the most fun I'd ever had out of bed, excuse the TMI. I got a bad diagnosis and decided to self publish. 

I've read one romance novel by somebody else since I started writing. I want to write my stuff. I know what a certain kind of woman enjoys reading because I'm that woman. Mainly I wrote for fun. I wrote all the time because I wanted to. 

I was successful as soon as I published. Yes it was easy. No I did not market, or very little. I did blog tours in the beginning to get reviews. That was about it. When the books worked, I panicked. I forced myself to work hard because it had been too easy and I was terrified it would vanish. That fear had the effect of pushing me to maintain my production. But I wrote weird stuff, new stuff, also, because it was most important to me to write something cool and not be stuck in a box. My primary driver is personal satisfaction. My secondary driver is fear. 

My list is what I came up with afterwards. Again not stuff I thought about. I didn't think about choosing a genre or studying the market. I wrote a book I thought would be cool and I thought maybe some other people would think so too. 

I do not present this as a how to. Maybe I did the same things you advocate, but by accident. That's fine. But my personal experience of how I made my decisions is mine, is honest. And I've felt like my honesty is being questioned. I accept that that wasn't your intention, but the people who keep insisting that I secretly "marketed" and that's why BookBub picked me up are annoying me. I didn't. I just wrote some books I liked and presented them well. Believe me or not.


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## MichaelRyan (Nov 23, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> To me, the most important marketing happens before you publish the book. If you get all that right, the rest can be easy. If you don't, you'll push a boulder up a hill.


This is very true and often overlooked by those that happen to be, as Nicolas Taleb says, "Fooled by Randomness."

In LitRPG there are several new authors who have quit their day jobs, or are about to quit their day jobs, because they've made so much money.

There is a doctor and a lawyer who make over six figures as writers while working full time in law and medicine. Both published their first books less than 18 months or so ago, and one of them only has 2 books.

I just saw a guy put a book to about 60 in the overall store, a series starter and only like his 5th book. He was insulted when I mentioned LitRPG was the reason for such insane success. He did zero advertising and marketing beyond posting in Facebook groups that the book was out. He had about 300 glowing reviews in under 2 weeks.

A friend of mine just quit his job last month. He sent me a very nice thank-you because I'd been the first person to tell him he could be a full time author if he parlayed LitRPG into a career. His very first novel ever...the first thing he ever published, broke into the top 100 in a few days after release.

Now, can anyone go write an LitRPG book and break into the top 100? No, of course not. It's highly niche and very complicated.

But my point is that lots of people out there think they are responsible for insane success when in fact there is always a lot of "luck of the draw" in this game.

I think _Write to Market_ was very helpful and I continue to recommend it to newbies, but not everyone is able to put this into practice and not everyone is able to nail their chosen genre. Some do, but they didn't even realize it was a hot niche genre they were writing into, it just happened. Lot's of people tried to follow Chris into the space thing, lots of people have shown up to write a LitRPG, and not everyone succeeds. I suspect there are many authors who just wrote something in a genre they liked some years back and had no idea they were "Writing to Market" in a hot genre...

I think that's great, but I roll my eyes when I see these new writers who break into the Top 1000 without even trying and think it's because they are such better writers than everyone who hasn't.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> I didn't say I don't advertise. I said I do relatively little marketing. Typically I would do a price promo every three months or so around a release. Now I do them a bit more often. Sometimes.


If you've never said that, I apologize, but that has always been the impression I get from your posts. And, I'm sorry, but BookBub is still the 800 lb gorilla. You don't need to do marketing, whatever you consider to be marketing, if you get multiple BookBub ads per year. All that I've ever read from your posts is that you rely on WOM. Sorry, that just ain't so. Just be forthright in your posts - say that you get multiple BookBubs, one of your books is in Prime, etc. There's no shame in any of that, but the people who read your posts need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. Don't say that you rely only on WOM in one post, then talk about getting 15 BookBubs in another. Be consistent. That's what we're looking for.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> I'm reading too much into things.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Deblombardi said:


> If you've never said that, I apologize, but that has always been the impression I get from your posts. And, I'm sorry, but BookBub is still the 800 lb gorilla. You don't need to do marketing, whatever you consider to be marketing, if you get multiple BookBub ads per year. All that I've ever read from your posts is that you rely on WOM. Sorry, that just ain't so. Just be forthright in your posts - say that you get multiple BookBubs, one of your books is in Prime, etc. There's no shame in any of that, but the people who read your posts need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. Don't say that you rely only on WOM in one post, then talk about getting 15 BookBubs in another. Be consistent. That's what we're looking for.


You know what? I'm getting pretty annoyed. I said I succeeded at the start by word of mouth. The first year I had two BookBubs I didn't apply for. I didn't know who they were. I just used the five free days thing and they picked the book up. I don't do most marketing things. Yes I was lucky that I got a lot of BookBubs at the start, the latter ones of which I applied for. But I spent a max of 10% of my time on marketing.

You are impugning my integrity and I resent it. Please insert the dismissive insult of your choice. I'm done.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Just popping in to say that I always look forward to reading Rosalind J.'s posts. Always insightful, professional and helpful. Completely honest and transparent. One more thing:  Integrity could be her middle name.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> If you've never said that, I apologize, but that has always been the impression I get from your posts. And, I'm sorry, but BookBub is still the 800 lb gorilla. You don't need to do marketing, whatever you consider to be marketing, if you get multiple BookBub ads per year. All that I've ever read from your posts is that you rely on WOM. Sorry, that just ain't so. Just be forthright in your posts - say that you get multiple BookBubs, one of your books is in Prime, etc. There's no shame in any of that, but the people who read your posts need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. Don't say that you rely only on WOM in one post, then talk about getting 15 BookBubs in another. Be consistent. That's what we're looking for.


In defence of Rosalind, I believe she had initial success out of the gate with little or no promotion. The Bookbubs came later and are part of maintaining success. Rosalind was successful out of the gate because of WOM. Bookbubs helped keep that level of success.

I had the same kind of early success for my breakout book. I paid for a $25 ad on a blog and that was it. It sold 5000 copies in its first month out of the gate. Some books just seem to have quick success without a lot of marketing and if you can garner a big enough early audience, you can then build on that early success. I didn't get a Bookbub for that breakout book until 7 months AFTER I already sold 20,000 copies.

So yeah... back in 2013, things were maybe different. The field wasn't as crowded. People didn't have the same options for advertising. Amazon algorithms were different. There wasn't KU or AMS or most of the Amazon imprints. It's still possible to have a breakout success with little advertising, but for most, it takes much more advertising and promotion up front and on release than it has in the past -- at least in my experience.

AFAIK, Bookbub usually only takes books with a proven track record. In other words, you need to already be successful. Bookbubs can help keep you a success but they don't usually pick books that don't have some oomph behind them already.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

sela said:


> In defence of Rosalind, I believe she had initial success out of the gate with little or no promotion.


Exactly, that was the precise context, initial success.


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> I suppose the difference is that I absolutely didn't do it consciously. I just thought of one of my usual daydreams for a long time and wondered if I could write a book. I didn't "study" a market. Not one bit. I'd been a reader all my life, and I'd read a fair amount of romance among other things. I wanted a book to escape into and I was getting dissatisfied with what was out there. I wrote mine for fun to see if I could and to have something to read. I loved it so I wrote two more. I wrote obsessively to escape pain and illness as I was pretty sick. Also because writing was the most fun I'd ever had out of bed, excuse the TMI. I got a bad diagnosis and decided to self publish.
> 
> I've read one romance novel by somebody else since I started writing. I want to write my stuff. I know what a certain kind of woman enjoys reading because I'm that woman. Mainly I wrote for fun. I wrote all the time because I wanted to.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not questioning your integrity, and I do believe you. I don't sanction any of the other posts I'm seeing directed at you. I know you know that, but I wanted to explicitly state it. If anything, it undermines the points I'm trying to discuss.

I'm just immensely frustrated, because you're part of a large undercurrent here who is very anti-WTM. But, as Kevin said, you don't really understand what I mean by writing to market. You come in and contradict my advice, without really understanding exactly what I'm advising people to do.

It's really a more structured version of what you did naturally, as a reader. I advise people to immerse themselves in a genre they love, one that they can spend months or years reading. What you did naturally, I try to teach people to do intentionally.

Why? Because we both know it works. Look at the advice you offered. It begins with knowing the market and what it wants. We both know that success, especially long term success, is predicated on understanding the needs of an audience. Both of us became that target audience, something I recommend in Write to Market.

So why my obsession with this? Go back to the beginning of the thread. The first page. Look at my post. Look at your response. Every time I post, you post to say 'yes, but Y is also possible'. And while that's true, it's really, really unlikely someone is going to find success without the kind of roadmap you just presented, or that I advocate.

That's the crux of my entire argument, and I'll rest if here. If you want to make six figures you need to work your ass off for an extended period of time, and your chances of hitting that kind of income go up in relation to how well you understand the audience you are writing for.

People can write to market or not. Do whatever works for you. But you want to make a living at this? Learn about your audience. It's fine to see other people not doing that and to hear about their success. If you want to walk that same route, then you should absolutely walk it.

But, if like Annie or myself, you reach a point where you're not happy with sales and you want to turn that all around, then perhaps accept that you might need to change the way you are writing and marketing books.

I get that posts like mine will ruffle a lot of feathers. I get that people love Ros, and I do too. I still have a right to disagree with her, and it isn't meant to be an attack. I've been civil and polite. If I see advice I disagree with, I'm absolutely going to speak up.

That is, after all, what makes this community what it is. I am fiercely protective of this community, and of indies in general. Those of you who know me, know that's true.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Chris Fox said:


> Do you write consistently? Because that's what I was trying to drive home. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're fairly consistent in your writing, since you publish multiple books a year.
> 
> When you say things like 'my income stays stable with no advertising and infrequent releases' it makes me cringe. I believe every author should do things in their own way, but I've also never, ever seen an author who's sales are constant without releasing regularly.
> 
> ...


I don't write consistently. I'm a binge writer and I do a lot of editing as I go, so between those things, I'm actually very slow ever since I got sick. I only released 1 book last year and didn't release another for 11 months. Weirdly, I had my best income year ever in 2016 even with that single release. I think there's more to it than just production, BUT I do think regular production is a huge leg up. Would I make more if I wrote more? Absolutely. I also think that for people writing to trend and people whose books maybe aren't the strongest, that constant releases can help prop things up and keep sales flowing. I know quite a few writers who have far more precipitous drops than I've ever seen if they don't release monthly or every 60 days etc. So I think it really depends on your audience, your writing quality, and what genres you are working in.

However, I totally agree that having a consistent writing and release schedule makes life 100% easier and is probably more likely to get a writer into that 100k+ earnings realm. I just can't do it myself because of physical and mental health reasons.

Also... I think writing to market and writing to trend are often conflated. They are not, at least in my mind, the same thing. I write to market, but I do not write to trend. I didn't look at the top 100 lists and decide where a niche was that needed filling. I looked at a list I made of everything I love to read about, and realized I could fit almost everything on that list into an Urban Fantasy series. I studied my favorite UF authors, sure, but I'd already read them. I made sure my books would satisfy what I loved about UF, which were things I assumed (mostly correctly, it turns out) that other readers of UF would love. So... I wrote to the market for the kind of books like the ones I wanted to write.

I don't see anything wrong with chasing trends, mind you. A lot of writers are making good money and satisfying a lot of readers doing that. But I do think that is hitting level 10 on the publishing treadmill, at least from the authors I know who do it and do it well, and I can't run that fast and have no desire to. Trends change and the best trend writers are those who see that and pivot with them. They make bank, but it's also exhausting. So... not for me.

I got nominated for a Hugo nearly a year after my books had taken off. My short fiction publications had zero to do with my indie success or I would have taken off a lot sooner. It was totally about changing my methods from the price high, write whatever, pray to actually paying attention to what was working. Am I a good writer? Yes. Is that a huge factor in my success? Absolutely. But it wasn't like 20sided was better than anything I'd written before it... there were other factors at play in its creation and success that made it different from the work I'd put up before. And I did no paid marketing around 20sided release because nobody would accept me, the Amazon algos did pretty much all the work there and my cover, blurb, and book itself finished what they started. Bookbub rejected me I think about 27 times before they finally took me and I'd sold tens of thousands of copies on my own by that point. They still reject me a lot.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Crystal_ said:


> [
> 
> Really? I went to Playa Del Carmen on vacation last year and I think it works be easy to spend 2x that much.


For sure, but you can sublet a decent condo there for $700 a month and if you avoid the real touristy stuff food is cheap and the beach is the beach. It's cheaper north and south of Playa and the expats living around there are fun people, a lot of them being "digital nomads" writer-types.

Mataio, Spain and Le Lavandou, France are two other relatively cheap places to be a "starving artist," or even one making $100k.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've read most of Rosalind's posts for years, and I've never known her to be inconsistent or less than forthright.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Chris Fox said:


> I'm certainly not questioning your integrity, and I do believe you. I don't sanction any of the other posts I'm seeing directed at you. I know you know that, but I wanted to explicitly state it. If anything, it undermines the points I'm trying to discuss.
> 
> I'm just immensely frustrated, because you're part of a large undercurrent here who is very anti-WTM. But, as Kevin said, you don't really understand what I mean by writing to market. You come in and contradict my advice, without really understanding exactly what I'm advising people to do.
> 
> It's really a more structured version of what you did naturally, as a reader. I advise people to immerse themselves in a genre they love, one that they can spend months or years reading. What you did naturally, I try to teach people to do intentionally.


I understand what you are trying to say.

Rosalind, at least as I understand her story, wrote naturally to a market, having absorbed tropes that were popular and having an innate sense of story and pace, hook, etc. Her books were successes out of the gate as a result. Her success wasn't 'studied' in the same sense as your success with the Void Wraith series and Destroyer. You did it consciously and in a studied way, having looked at the market, and also having a sense of story and pace, etc. from your years as a gamer/geek/etc.

What Rosalind did in an unstudied way you did in a studied deliberate way. And you both had success.

Do I think a new author is better-served to follow your or Rosalind's path? Definitely your path. Rosalind's path works for those who have that innate sense of a market, and innate skills but none of us know we have that until we actually put the book out there.

SO: because I love you both, I'm trying to find the happy medium between the two of you.

For a new writer, who has not published yet, you might consider publishing that book you want to read and see how it does. You might be a Rosalind and have this innate sense of the market and story and pace and hook. Chances are, you won't. Chances are that you won't sell more than a handful of copies. That's just the reality of the publishing biz.

If you do write that book that you want to read and write and not study the market, etc. and it goes nowhere, THEN pick up Chris Fox's books and watch all his videos and implement his methods and approach.

You most likely STILL won't succeed. The stats are not in any given aspiring author's favour.

BUT today is the absolutely best time to be a writer. Go watch Mark Dawson's videos and take his course. If you have the writing chops, you have a better chance today at making a living as a published author than ever before.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Chris Fox said:


> What you did naturally, I try to teach people to do intentionally.


This is the core of teaching, IMO.

ETA: I think most people who become teachers are, to some extent, "naturals." The ability to translate what one does naturally into a manageable series of actions others can understand, practice, and internalize ... that's key.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Many of us have known each other for years digitally. And while I don't always agree with everyone, the way we have endured for YEARS is we accept each other warts and all. 

I know I have shown my warts and many an occasion. I scratch my head when I see people be one way here, on Kboards, another on Facebook, etc. But same could be said for me. I curse like the sailor's daughter that I am on another forum, and I let me short hair down when I get to Google Hangout with my friends.

Reality is, everyone's success is never the rainbows and unicorns they portray it is later. And we are so insular, we really DON'T know what WILL work for the author right next to us who is even in our genre.

This is Kboards. This is family. This is you don't have to make everyone else be just like you to be loved and accepted here. It's okay. 

I've had 2 Bookbubs, 1 organic (I'm sooo stinkin' old in this self pub stuff my book was around when Bookbub was still sharing books on spec just trying to get themselves off the ground....), 1 I paid for. The extremely long tail of that amount of books moving cannot be undone, once you have had one, you have moved books that make you significant in the Amazon algorithms. It's just math.

And everyone buys advertising. Or markets, whatever is right for them. And all of us get times where we feel small, insecure, or stuck on our latest book that we lash out on forums. It's going to be okay. 

It's not bad to advertise a book. It's not bad to only write 1 kind of book or 10 different genres. Share what works for you, but realize it's unique to YOU.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Reality is, everyone's success is never the rainbows and unicorns they portray it is later. And we are so insular, we really DON'T know what WILL work for the author right next to us who is even in our genre. Or markets, whatever is right for them. And all of us get times where we feel small, insecure, or stuck on our latest book that we lash out on forums. It's going to be okay.
> 
> ...
> 
> It's not bad to advertise a book. It's not bad to only write 1 kind of book or 10 different genres. Share what works for you, *but realize it's unique to YOU.*


Bolded the last for emphasis. There are a lot of ways to succeed at this game. It's okay to write quirky books and just expect they'll take longer to find their footing.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> You know what? I'm getting pretty annoyed. I said I succeeded at the start by word of mouth. The first year I had two BookBubs I didn't apply for. I didn't know who they were. I just used the five free days thing and they picked the book up. I don't do most marketing things. Yes I was lucky that I got a lot of BookBubs at the start, the latter ones of which I applied for. But I spent a max of 10% of my time on marketing.
> 
> You are impugning my integrity and I resent it. Please insert the dismissive insult of your choice. I'm done.


You got Bookbubs you didn't apply for? You mean they just contacted you out of nowhere wanting to run your book? I mean this when I say I had no idea they did such a thing. I'm probably way behind the curve on this, but I swear I didn't know that was happening. I constantly read threads about all the rejections Kboarders (myself included) have had from Bookbub, and here they are tapping writers out of left field to promote their books for them! Now that's what I call being anointed! Very impressive.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Don Donovan said:


> You got Bookbubs you didn't apply for? You mean they just contacted you out of nowhere wanting to run your book? I mean this when I say I had no idea they did such a thing. I'm probably way behind the curve on this, but I swear I didn't know that was happening. I constantly read threads about all the rejections Kboarders (myself included) have had from Bookbub, and here they are tapping writers out of left field! Now that's what I call being anointed! Very impressive.


I think that happened when they were just starting out, still growing their subscriber base and establishing their reputation.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Don Donovan said:


> You got Bookbubs you didn't apply for? You mean they just contacted you out of nowhere wanting to run your book? I mean this when I say I had no idea they did such a thing. I'm probably way behind the curve on this, but I swear I didn't know that was happening. I constantly read threads about all the rejections Kboarders (myself included) have had from Bookbub, and here they are tapping writers out of left field! Now that's what I call being anointed! Very impressive.


Back when Bookbub was just a gleam in the founder's eyes, they picked up free books and promoted them without being paid as a way to grown their email list and dominate the world of book promotion. I believe this is what Rosalind was talking about. Her books were picked up by Bookbub back when and she only found out after.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Don Donovan said:


> You got Bookbubs you didn't apply for?


Pixel of Ink used to do the same thing. You couldn't apply for it, they just curated their own list. They didn't even contact authors and you would only find out if they were promoting you book if you subscribed to their newsletter.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I, too, had a Bookbub back when it was on spec, circa January 2012. I made it to #2 on the Free List, would have been #1 but stinkin' Les Miserables was in theaters.  

However, once you have HAD A Bookbub you can't scrub that from your publishing record where Amazon's algos are concerned. Even a free book, those downloads now make up a customer base Amazon identifies as interested in YOU.

I've gone round and round with Rosalind and Chris Fox before in many places on many subjects. It's what smart, talented people do, who else is going to keep everyone on their toes but ourselves? You can respect someone and not agree 100% with them. When anonymous accounts on Kboards and other places want to poke the bear or question integrity, I raise my eyebrow as well and think in my best Eddie Izzard impression on his bit about flags: "Who the f are these guys?" 

I am also someone that gets mad when people revise history, when they say "Just write a good book" or start threads like "You just need a good editor" and they omit the fact that they had a Bookbub every other month since they started because they wrote in a hot genre that was what Bookbub wanted to feature. Fast forward 1-2 years, Bookbub ain't handing them out spots like candy and it's all "I made this success all on my OWN! I did it! Me. . . " and some of the more irresponsible authors sell courses to teach others how to succeed again, either omitting the real story or worse, they share less than ethical tactics to make it happen, like gifting.

The gifting thing now being such a scandal is kinda funny to me in a weird way. Back when Bookbub was promoting books on spec, the merit-based pick up if you will, the reason we were all doing that is the shuffle from FREE to Paid was big. I made $1500 January 2012 bouncing back to paid in a week's time. But back then, we all griped about how we had to give away tens of thousands of free books to sell a few hundred and the joke was "well at least we aren't paying people to take the free books!" Hardy har har har. And with this gifting nonsense.... that's literally what's happening. The enter by midnight for this gift card with your proof of purchase to gain rank, it's that joke we always made coming true! Paying people to use a gift card to take a free book vs. use it another book that's why they require "proof of purchase".

If you are here long enough though, you develop a healthy amount of cynicism about everyone. Including me, like do your own experiments and your own research, no one is God of Publishing. And trust me, whoever you set up on the pedestal of being infallible... they WILL fail you. I've seen Amazon fortunes crumble, an algorithm shift wipe out entire hot genres, and big names with the kind of distinctions that make mainstream press like selling 1 million ebooks come out and confess they just bought reviews on Fiverr because they figured out Amazon boosted books based on 5-star reviews (that's not really true now, it was back at one point). Unless someone is happy and publishing and helpful year in and year out, without any hiccoughs (like it's not NORMAL for a book to be banned by Amazon, for people to claim you've stiffed them, etc), I would be wary. 

And don't pay an LLC any monies you wouldn't dump into a slot machine with no expectation of return.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I, too, had a Bookbub back when it was on spec, circa January 2012. I made it to #2 on the Free List, would have been #1 but stinkin' Les Miserables was in theaters.
> 
> However, once you have HAD A Bookbub you can't scrub that from your publishing record where Amazon's algos are concerned. Even a free book, those downloads now make up a customer base Amazon identifies as interested in YOU.
> 
> ...


This. One of the best posts I've read on this thread. Thanks, Elizabeth.


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## caarsen (Aug 28, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> In my experience, getting Amazon promotions makes a huge difference. If only I could have a Kindle Monthly Deal every month. *Sigh*


So, what is Kindle Monthly Deal and how does one get it?


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

caarsen said:


> So, what is Kindle Monthly Deal and how does one get it?


For an entire month your book is promoted by Amazon. They have a special deal list with all the books they picked, and that list is emailed to literally millions of people over the course of the month. Some people have a monthly or daily deal and get meh results. Most sell a truck load of extra books.

Normally you can't get one of these deals unless Amazon invites you, much like their new Prime program (which rocks for authors). The exception is the Amazon White Glove Program. This program requires you to be agented, and the agent gets 15% of the profits for your book. Being in the program guarantees you a monthly deal each year.


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## A Woman&#039;s Place Is In The Rebellion (Apr 28, 2011)

Well said, Elizabeth. 

caarsen -- KMDs are one of those things where Amazon contacts you, generally if you're already selling well. Amazon lists the book at a sale price and pushes it out in emails for a month. If your book is part of a series, it can lift sales of the other books in the series. (It does often seem to be a random book 3 in a series that gets selected for a KMD.) Kindle Daily Deal is even better. Never had either personally but one day. One day!!


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> You know what? I'm getting pretty annoyed. I said I succeeded at the start by word of mouth. The first year I had two BookBubs I didn't apply for. I didn't know who they were. I just used the five free days thing and they picked the book up. I don't do most marketing things. Yes I was lucky that I got a lot of BookBubs at the start, the latter ones of which I applied for. But I spent a max of 10% of my time on marketing.
> 
> You are impugning my integrity and I resent it. Please insert the dismissive insult of your choice. I'm done.


Here's the thing. Marketing is important. It is. Advertising is important. Most of us would kill to have one BookBub per year, let alone 3-4 BookBubs yearly, let alone one every month. But that's not the real world for 99% of authors. When you leave out a key ingredient that contributes to your success, such as regular BookBub ads, you aren't telling the whole story for the newbies who eat up your advice like candy. You leave them with the impression that they don't need to market - they only need a great book and great cover. If you build it, they will come. Then, when they do "build it," and nobody comes, they think that there is something wrong with their book or cover, when that's not necessarily the case. Maybe they give up at that point. They get the impression that marketing isn't necessary, because you've pretty much said that it's not.

They need to get visible, somehow, someway. That's why I get upset when I read your posts that don't mention marketing in the slightest. And, yes, there are a lot of your posts that do just that. Your basic advice is "just write hooky books that are packaged great. That's what I did, and I'm selling high six figures." If you mention marketing, it's only to say that you don't do much of it. And I'm not referring to posts that talk about your origin. I have no doubt that, at first, you put your books up and people flocked to them at first. I'm not disputing that at all. But your books don't stay evergreen without help. Neither will most people's books. That's when marketing comes in. I would just appreciate it if you would acknowledge that in your posts.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> Here's the thing. Marketing is important. It is. Advertising is important. Most of us would kill to have one BookBub per year, let alone 3-4 BookBubs yearly, let alone one every month. But that's not the real world for 99% of authors. When you leave out a key ingredient that contributes to your success, such as regular BookBub ads, you aren't telling the whole story for the newbies who eat up your advice like candy. You leave them with the impression that they don't need to market - they only need a great book and great cover. If you build it, they will come. Then, when they do "build it," and nobody comes, they think that there is something wrong with their book or cover, when that's not necessarily the case. Maybe they give up at that point. They get the impression that marketing isn't necessary, because you've pretty much said that it's not.
> 
> They need to get visible, somehow, someway. That's why I get upset when I read your posts that don't mention marketing in the slightest. And, yes, there are a lot of your posts that do just that. Your basic advice is "just write hooky books that are packaged great. That's what I did, and I'm selling high six figures." If you mention marketing, it's only to say that you don't do much of it. And I'm not referring to posts that talk about your origin. I have no doubt that, at first, you put your books up and people flocked to them at first. I'm not disputing that at all. But your books don't stay evergreen without help. Neither will most people's books. That's when marketing comes in. I would just appreciate it if you would acknowledge that in your posts.


The part where you think someone talking about their career is de facto issuing advice is where you lose me. I think Ros has been incredibly straightforward. I don't think the issue you have has anything to do with protecting people from the advice she never actually gave.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Deblombardi said:


> Here's the thing. Marketing is important. It is. Advertising is important. Most of us would kill to have one BookBub per year, let alone 3-4 BookBubs yearly, let alone one every month. But that's not the real world for 99% of authors. When you leave out a key ingredient that contributes to your success, such as regular BookBub ads, you aren't telling the whole story for the newbies who eat up your advice like candy. You leave them with the impression that they don't need to market - they only need a great book and great cover. If you build it, they will come. Then, when they do "build it," and nobody comes, they think that there is something wrong with their book or cover, when that's not necessarily the case. Maybe they give up at that point. They get the impression that marketing isn't necessary, because you've pretty much said that it's not.
> 
> They need to get visible, somehow, someway. That's why I get upset when I read your posts that don't mention marketing in the slightest. And, yes, there are a lot of your posts that do just that. Your basic advice is "just write hooky books that are packaged great. That's what I did, and I'm selling high six figures." If you mention marketing, it's only to say that you don't do much of it. And I'm not referring to posts that talk about your origin. I have no doubt that, at first, you put your books up and people flocked to them at first. I'm not disputing that at all. But your books don't stay evergreen without help. Neither will most people's books. That's when marketing comes in. I would just appreciate it if you would acknowledge that in your posts.


Nah. When you have great covers, great formatting and a book that people buy, and persistence, you WILL get Bookbubs, 100% certain. Not when you want, not as often as you want, but you will get them. The 99% not getting them is blatantly untrue.

There is only one story I tell newbies:

1. Learn to write books people want to read
1a. Mailing list
2. Persistence
3. Rinse and repeat.

It's a lot of hard work and people think there should the The One Thing they can do to start selling. There isn't such a thing, and blaming people who sell better than you for withholding that information is just... silly. Spend your energy on your books, not on lamenting.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> Nah. When you have great covers, great formatting and a book that people buy, and persistence, you WILL get Bookbubs, 100% certain. Not when you want, not as often as you want, but you will get them. The 99% not getting them is blatantly untrue.
> 
> There is only one story I tell newbies:
> 
> ...


Oh, if that were only true. Chris Fox has never had a BookBub. Amanda says that she applies all the time and is rejected, except for once a year. Annie B. says that she is rarely accepted for BookBubs. Those are just examples that I can think of on the top of my head. Patty, you're a BookBub queen, and that's great for you, but to say that 100% of authors who have good books will get BookBubs is...not factual.

And you always acknowledge how hard you work on marketing. Always. You put out posts about what you do to market that make me want to cry, because I wish that I had that kind of drive to do what you do. Seriously. You got that marketing thing down, and you're not afraid to say so. That's why I find your posts so helpful.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> They get the impression that marketing isn't necessary, because you've pretty much said that it's not.


Yeah, that's not true in the slightest.

She's made a comparison between the amount she needs marketing to achieve her success versus the amount others in her league seem to need it.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I never said I did no marketing. I said I did little. I'm not honest about my marketing? OK. For the past four months, I think I've had some small AMS ads running. I don't even know because I haven't looked. 

Other than that, I have done zero. No. Advertising for four months. I have sent out I think three newsletters. Two in the past three months. I post on Facebook, mostly pictures of my yard or something. You can look. 

You can look at my ranks, too. Yes my income has been stable this year despite the fact that it's taking me 5 months to write this book and I've done almost no marketing. Yes KU and Amazon have kept it that way. I have also done German translations and caught up on my audio. Did all that this winter before the boom fell on my life. 

Am I fortunate? Yes, in this one way. Do I think my path is replicable? I do not know. Probably nobody's is. We all write different books. Am I saying, "Do it my way and it will work?" Nope. I don't know why it works for me. Read back through the thread and see all the times I say that People. Are. Different. Paths are different. Priorities are different. 

I didn't say I didn't work hard. I said success came more easily at this than anything else in my life had. I've had a job since I was 9 years old. Literally. I finished high school at 15. I finished college at UC Berkeley while I worked 40 hours a week, and I was one of the top 10 graduates in the university that year. I have good work habits. What seems easy for me may not be easy for somebody who has trouble self motivating or even just a more complicated life. I've said many times that there was no way I could have done this job while my kids were at home. While I worked a day job. All my kudos to those who do. I also can't do what Amanda Lee does, and yet that is easy for her. That doesn't mean she doesn't work hard. But it comes easily. Kudos to her. 

The only reason I post is that when I was thinking about publishing, I read a bunch of things somewhere like Absolute Write that said nobody succeeds at self publishing. I am not confident. I almost didn't publish. If I hadn't been so sick I wouldn't have. But I had a come to Jesus moment and I did it anyway. And I bet there are people like me out there thinking it is not worth it and it's impossible to succeed. I want to encourage those people to at least try. 

I did publish, and it was easy. I'm sorry if that's offensive. It was. If it makes you feel better it is the only thing in my life that has been easy. I could detail it but I hate when people bring up their sad story to make a point. 

Yes I got some BookBubs. I've said that over and over too. I said I don't do much marketing. I don't. When I get a BookBub I stack ads around it. I don't do Facebook ads. I've done some AMS ads. 

Maybe my thing will come crashing down this year. Could be. I've always written primarily for myself. I am lucky to have mass market taste. I wrote a historical reenactment reality show book when my NZ series was taking off. It's a genre mashup. It's sold very well. Because I have mass market taste and it's a fun book. I'll keep trying new things and probably not marketing enough. I'll keep being anxious about the book I'm writing and worrying that I'll disappoint people. You say I don't share the struggle enough? That is my struggle. I write with anxiety and depression. My only real obstacles in this have been the ones in my head, but they are enormous. It is a fight to work every day. It is climbing a mountain. So there you go. 

Now I am signing out of here. If I have helped people I am glad. If I have made people feel bad or inadvertently misled them I am sorry. I have done my best to tell the truth and not to disparage others. And yes I resent the implication that I am a liar or not straightforward. To those who have said that: $)&@ you.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Deblombardi said:


> Here's the thing. Marketing is important. It is. Advertising is important. Most of us would kill to have one BookBub per year, let alone 3-4 BookBubs yearly, let alone one every month. But that's not the real world for 99% of authors. When you leave out a key ingredient that contributes to your success, such as regular BookBub ads, you aren't telling the whole story for the newbies who eat up your advice like candy. You leave them with the impression that they don't need to market - they only need a great book and great cover. If you build it, they will come. Then, when they do "build it," and nobody comes, they think that there is something wrong with their book or cover, when that's not necessarily the case. Maybe they give up at that point. They get the impression that marketing isn't necessary, because you've pretty much said that it's not.
> 
> They need to get visible, somehow, someway. That's why I get upset when I read your posts that don't mention marketing in the slightest. And, yes, there are a lot of your posts that do just that. Your basic advice is "just write hooky books that are packaged great. That's what I did, and I'm selling high six figures." If you mention marketing, it's only to say that you don't do much of it. And I'm not referring to posts that talk about your origin. I have no doubt that, at first, you put your books up and people flocked to them at first. I'm not disputing that at all. But your books don't stay evergreen without help. Neither will most people's books. That's when marketing comes in. I would just appreciate it if you would acknowledge that in your posts.


Deblombardi, the point you're making about marketing's importance is a good one, but you need to let it go as pertains to Rosalind specifically. Outside of exceptional situations, we don't go around accusing one another of being misleading, here.

Rosalind perceives herself as not doing much marketing, and that's her right. IMO, it's not an unreasonable thing for her to think. There are writers who spend one-third to half of each work day on marketing. She doesn't do that. She spends nearly all of every work day writing and, maybe, hanging out here a bit, which I'm sure she sees as communal/social, not marketing. Filling out the Bookbub application form a few times a year feels like a tiny effort. If you spend less than 1% of your time doing marketing-related activities, you're not going to identify yourself much of a marketer, even if that <1% has a big impact.

Also, I suspect she sees the things she put on her list of "must dos" as the things you have to do to get a Bookbub. Therefore, those things -- great covers, hooky premise, etc. -- are the things that really matter. Lots of new writers think they have "built it" in those ways when, in fact, they haven't. Not to put words in her mouth, but I _think _Rosalind would say that if those fundamentals aren't there, marketing won't help; therefore, the fundamentals are by far the most important thing to focus on.

In short, she's talking about her own experience as she perceives it, and making recommendations in the order she thinks matters. That's all any of us can do. We need to take one another in good faith.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> . . . The only reason I post is that when I was thinking about publishing, I read a bunch of things somewhere like Absolute Write that said nobody succeeds at self publishing. I am not confident. I almost didn't publish. If I hadn't been so sick I wouldn't have. But I had a come to Jesus moment and I did it anyway. And I bet there are people like me out there thinking it is not worth it and it's impossible to succeed. I want to encourage those people to at least try. . .


^ Thank you for this. While it's highly unlikely that I'll ever be a 100k author (I write much too slowly) I very much appreciate the encouragement.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> Lots of new writers think they have "built it" in those ways when, in fact, they haven't. Not to put words in her mouth, but I _think _Rosalind would say that if those fundamentals aren't there, marketing won't help


Yeah, it's all about the fundamentals. Marketing won't cure (for long) poor writing, lousy presentation, etc., but in most cases it's essential for getting those first books noticed. Only after you get your foot is in the door of the marketplace and you see where your books stick in the rankings will you have a good idea of where your career is going.

I've seen Bookbub take a novel from #1,600,000 to #500 and weeks later noted it dropping to #800,000 on its return to obscurity. One could assume Bookbub isn't a panacea for a weak novel.

I doubt a thread on "What Makes A $30k Author" would alter the conversation much. It's all begins with the fundamentals.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

i think part of the problem is that many of us have different ideas on what a market is.  To me a market is a specific group or audience. So writing to market is writing a book that pleases that audience. So technically, all books are written to market. The underlying factor is the SIZE & HUNGER of that market. 

Rosalind wrote the books she wanted to read. But she had no real idea just how large the audience for her brand of fiction was. 

Chris wrote the books he wanted to read too, but he knew there was a hungry audience for the genre.  

Despite differing routes both of them arrived at the same destination - success. 

Another example is Michael Anderle. He currently has a highly successful series featuring Vampires-in-Space. No one could've predicted just how huge a market for his particular quirky brand of fiction there was. Again he just wrote a book that he wanted read. 

OTOH Annie B. & Domino Finn both intentionally wrote books for the then terribly ignored UF market. 

And again all three of them arrived at the same destination - a viable author career. 

IMHO all books are written to a market of some kind. Whether or not the author knows it.  It's just some actively choose to find genres or sub-genres that are hungry for new content. While others just write whatever pleases them and if success finds them it's an added bonus. 

Both approaches are equally valid.


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## SBlake (Mar 23, 2017)

For me, both Rosalind's and Chris' advice has been indispensable. From Chris I've learned how to find, target, and write to a hungry market (let's hope that when I release my first three books in September, I chose the right one!). From Rosalind's books and advice I've learned how to translate my writing into the romance genre (a huge change for me from middle grade and YA). 

When either of them speak on these boards I sit up and pay attention. 

Rosalind, I hope you're not gone for good. 

Thanks to you both, as well as to all of the other authors here who have posted about their journey.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Now I am signing out of here. If I have helped people I am glad. If I have made people feel bad or inadvertently misled them I am sorry. I have done my best to tell the truth and not to disparage others. And yes I resent the implication that I am a liar or not straightforward. To those who have said that: $)&@ you.


This makes me sad. I really wish KB was a place that didn't chase off so many highly successful authors. I understand that this place serves many purposes, but from a purely business standpoint, the advice of someone like Rosalind is too valuable to be squandered.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> i think part of the problem is that many of us have different ideas on what a market is. To me a market is a specific group or audience. So writing to market is writing a book that pleases that audience. So technically, all books are written to market. The underlying factor is the SIZE & HUNGER of that market.
> 
> Rosalind wrote the books she wanted to read. But she had no real idea just how large the audience for her brand of fiction was.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.

People forget that the indie publishing is PUBLISHING.

Publishing is a business.

Business is about selling products/services to customers in a market.

Such as the market for novels, whether they are romance or science fiction or zombies.

Writers are also usually avid readers.

They usually have an internalized sense of story and market, but not always. Some have to study markets a bit more consciously. Sometimes, authors are creative and mishmash genres and categories in a way that pleases them but few others -- or they may start a whole new trend.

Sometimes, authors write straight down the line in a given market and please themselves and a WHOLE LOT of readers.

There are many paths. How successful a given author will be is determined by their writing chops, the size of the market their book appeals to, and how visible their book is to that market.

Craft is at the base -- the ability to tell a story people want to read.
Market size and hunger determines how big an author's success can be.
Visibility determines whether that market can find the author's book.

We can work on improving all three. Luckily.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MonkishScribe said:


> This makes me sad. I really wish KB was a place that didn't chase off so many highly successful authors. I understand that this place serves many purposes, but from a purely business standpoint, the advice of someone like Rosalind is too valuable to be squandered.


I totally agree about Rosalind; I hope she meant she's off the thread, not off the forum entirely.

I don't think KB is particularly prone to driving successful people off. It's _publicness _that has this effect, IMO. When you give advice in a totally public setting, it's inevitable that some people will react with something other than complete appreciation (I'm phrasing that as broadly as possible, intending to encompass everything from polite disagreement to misreading to crazy stuff). This is unavoidable in a setting where absolutely anyone can read and comment.

I recognize that giving advice in public is not for everyone, but I hope we can maintain a group of very successful authors who are willing to push through or simply ignore those who don't accept their advice in they way they hoped it would be accepted. I know there's always a large audience here that very much appreciates advice given by the voices of experience. Well over a thousand people are reading KB right now, and three-quarters of them are unregistered guests. Lots of folks drink up the advice people like Rosalind have to give, even if they don't comment.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> Now I am signing out of here. If I have helped people I am glad. If I have made people feel bad or inadvertently misled them I am sorry. I have done my best to tell the truth and not to disparage others. And yes I resent the implication that I am a liar or not straightforward. To those who have said that: $)&@ you.


So we've lost Rosalind thanks to an anonymous newbie with no demonstrable experience who seems to be here just to take pot shots at established successful authors? Way to go Deblombardi. I assume you'll be stepping into the vacuum and sharing all your titles, journey, results, experiences with agents and selling other rights and earnings per year?


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Patty Jansen said:


> Nah. When you have great covers, great formatting and a book that people buy, and persistence, you WILL get Bookbubs, 100% certain. Not when you want, not as often as you want, but you will get them. The 99% not getting them is blatantly untrue.
> 
> There is only one story I tell newbies:
> 
> ...


I would have to strongly disagree with this. There is NO certainty in getting a Bookbub ad, unless perhaps a writer who has gotten many of them is well-known to the Bookbub staff and they are somewhat predisposed to give that writer a slot.

*Quote from Becca Mills*
I don't think KB is particularly prone to driving successful people off. It's publicness that has this effect, IMO. When you give advice in a totally public setting, it's inevitable that some people will react with something other than complete appreciation (I'm phrasing that as broadly as possible, intending to encompass everything from polite disagreement to misreading to crazy stuff). This is unavoidable in a setting where absolutely anyone can read and comment. (*end quote*)

This is very perceptive. "Publicness" (great word) is the operative word here. The other side of this coin is, when you post on a very public forum like this one, you can't be too upset if someone doesn't like what you say. Even if they wrongly imply you are not being truthful, it's a public forum and you have to let it go.

In Rosalind's case, there is no doubt in my mind that she was being truthful in everything she said. I don't believe she would deliberately mislead anyone on this forum. Ever. But when Deblombardi says:

*Quote from Deblombardi*
Most of us would kill to have one BookBub per year, let alone 3-4 BookBubs yearly, let alone one every month. But that's not the real world for 99% of authors. When you leave out a key ingredient that contributes to your success, such as regular BookBub ads, you aren't telling the whole story for the newbies who eat up your advice like candy. You leave them with the impression that they don't need to market - they only need a great book and great cover. If you build it, they will come. Then, when they do "build it," and nobody comes, they think that there is something wrong with their book or cover, when that's not necessarily the case. (*end quote*)

... she has a point. I've read many postings by Rosalind and have always gotten the impression that marketing was, at best, a barely visible component to her success. It felt like she was saying all her effort went into writing, cover, concept &#8230; all the "hooky" stuff. And in fact, I'm sure that's where the majority of her effort went. And because of the "publicness" of this forum, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gotten that impression, that the "hooky" stuff is why her books are selling.

The fact is, however, if she has had one Bookbub ad every month or so for several years, then Bookbub is doing the heavy lifting, and that translates into thousands and thousands of books sold. This makes Bookbub look pretty much like the biggest reason for her staggering sales.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Don Donovan said:


> This makes Bookbub look pretty much like the biggest reason for her staggering sales.


That's a big leap...

Regardless, BB only really works _long-term_ when there's a solid product advertised. I mentioned earlier books can be pulled from obscurity with a BB, into which they quickly retreat if the novel, beyond its packaging, isn't very good or has no sustaining audience.

Rosalind has books from 2014 ranking in the sub #9000s without BBs. There are reasons *beyond* promotion for staying power like that. She's pretty well outlined what _she_ feels those reasons are.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> The only reason I post is that when I was thinking about publishing, I read a bunch of things somewhere like Absolute Write that said nobody succeeds at self publishing. I am not confident. I almost didn't publish. If I hadn't been so sick I wouldn't have. But I had a come to Jesus moment and I did it anyway. And I bet there are people like me out there thinking it is not worth it and it's impossible to succeed. I want to encourage those people to at least try.


And this is one reason I LOVE your posts! I can't "write to market", literally cannot. My brain just doesn't work that way. Seeing all the posts that "well if you don't WTM, you will just be a hobbist and aren't going to succeed" are extremely discouraging and off putting. I was on the verge of just giving up all together right around the time you posted this thread in September and it helped me get through the slough and keep going. So thank you and I hope the weird turns this thread took haven't chased you off for good.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh come on.... if Rosalind is taking a break, that's Rosalind's decision. If I rage quit Kboards everytime an anonymous or not so anonymous poster got under my skin, I'd have less than 100 posts.

We're all grown ups here, it's the Internet. You can't take things that seriously.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

This might run afoul of forum standards but it needs to be said.

If successful, candid, professional, and generous authors like Rosalind continue to be run out of the writer's cafe and all we have left are the likes of Deblombardi, then this forum will eventually become a pointless waste of virtual space. There are plenty of forums for bitter aspirants to rail against their own obscurity and rationalize and externalize every failing in their endeavors. This isn't and shouldn't be one of those.

Whenever comments in the vein of Deblombardi's in this thread appear, a check of their backlist and sales reinforces the preceding characterization on the sentiments and motives of those comments.

Search the history of these forums. In times past there were a great many more successful and generous indies sharing their stories and advice. Many of those still here are increasingly reticent. It's an entirely understandable reticence.

I hope that those on here that appreciate and benefit from contributors like Rosalind, Jana, Amanda, Michael, Mark, Annie, Kristen, Holly, Russell, Patty and many more post that appreciation and appeal to those who understand that it isn't a zero sum game; and that, as Mark has put it, one of the beautiful things about the indie publishing community is that we make a point of not pulling the ladder up after ourselves. We hold it for the next one preparing to make the climb. That's what this forum is about imo. Let's preserve it.

[Note to Betsy, Becca, Ann: When you, the moderators, likely edit my post, I beseech you use a fine rather than broad brush. Some of the comments are likely candidates for removal but surely not all. The positive sentiments can stand I would think. ]


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Don Donovan said:


> I would have to strongly disagree with this. There is NO certainty in getting a Bookbub ad, unless perhaps a writer who has gotten many of them is well-known to the Bookbub staff and they are somewhat predisposed to give that writer a slot.
> 
> *Quote from MonkishScribe*
> I don't think KB is particularly prone to driving successful people off. It's publicness that has this effect, IMO. When you give advice in a totally public setting, it's inevitable that some people will react with something other than complete appreciation (I'm phrasing that as broadly as possible, intending to encompass everything from polite disagreement to misreading to crazy stuff). This is unavoidable in a setting where absolutely anyone can read and comment. (*end quote*)
> ...


Where is this idea coming from that Rosalind has 12 Bookbubs a year? Did I miss where she said such a thing?

FYI, one of the things you've quoted was me responding to MonkishScribe, not the Monk himself.



AliceW said:


> So we've lost Rosalind thanks to an anonymous newbie with no demonstrable experience who seems to be here just to take pot shots at established successful authors? Way to go Deblombardi. I assume you'll be stepping into the vacuum and sharing all your titles, journey, results, experiences with agents and selling other rights and earnings per year?


I don't see Deblombardi as being here "just to take pot shots at" authors like Rosalind. I see her/him as raising an honest (if, in my personal view, sort of misguided) point in a way not fully in keeping with our forum culture. Deblombardi hopefully now understands that implicit or explicit suggestions that someone is misleading others isn't the way we role here, unless there's something grotesque going on.

Multiple people have expressed appreciation for Rosalind on this thread. I've stepped in as moderator several times to back her up with the voice of the forum. Hopefully that kind of support is enough to outweigh the _inevitable_ annoyances that arise when one interacts with a random group of people in a public space.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Patrick Urban said:


> This might run afoul of forum standards but it needs to be said.
> 
> If successful, candid, professional, and generous authors like Rosalind continue to be run out of the writer's cafe and all we have left are the likes of Deblombardi, then this forum will eventually become a pointless waste of virtual space. There are plenty of forums for bitter aspirants to rail against their own obscurity and rationalize and externalize every failing in their endeavors. This isn't and shouldn't be one of those.
> 
> ...


Patrick, I understand the frustration, and we do want to keep exceptional authors like Rosalind here. But there will always be people who disagree, always be people who steadfastly see your experience through a very different and perhaps less charitable lens than you do, always be newbies who don't quite nail our forum culture, and so forth. Yeah, we need to try hard not to run exceptional authors out of KB, but despite our best efforts, those who end up staying long term will probably be those who, at some level, refuse to be run out. I fully understand why busy people who could be using their minutes to make $$$ might choose to leave behind the annoyances of public interaction; that seems like quite a rational decision to me, actually. But I hope some will irrationally decide otherwise.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

Patrick Urban said:


> If successful, candid, professional, and generous authors like Rosalind continue to be run out of the writer's cafe and all we have left are the likes of Deblombardi, then this forum will eventually become a pointless waste of virtual space. There are plenty of forums for bitter aspirants to rail against their own obscurity and rationalize and externalize every failing in their endeavors. This isn't and shouldn't be one of those.


I would argue, respectfully, that the forum needs both successful indies AND people who are willing to push back and question, rather than just sitting like obsequious newbies. Side note: I say this as someone who did NOT interpret the push back from Chris Fox and Deblombardi as being bitter and rationalizing of failure.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Rosalind J said:


> I wish to clarify something.
> 
> I have posted here 5200 times over about four years. I haven't rage-quit every time some poster got under my skin. That should be obvious by now.
> 
> ...


Hugs, Rosalind.


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## WordSaladTongs (Oct 14, 2013)

Rosalind J said:


> I do not need anybody to be obsequious. I also don't need people calling me a liar or accusing me of "rewriting history."


I knew somehow I'd offend someone--I definitely wasn't trying to imply that you needed that. I moreso wanted to point out to those who get angry when people question others here that the forum wouldn't be as helpful if they weren't around.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

WordSaladTongs said:


> I would argue, respectfully, that the forum needs both successful indies AND people who are willing to push back and question, rather than just sitting like obsequious newbies.


As someone wanting to grow their business, there is far more value for me in listening to the variety of experiences from authors like Rosalind, Chris, Elizabeth or Annie. Someone like Deblombardi who doesn't share anything but simply criticises, doesn't add any value IMO. When interesting discussions are derailed by finger pointing from someone who wants to be pedantic then any value in the conversation is lost. Threads like this are a good example of why more meaningful conversations about business practices are now happening in private groups with smaller memberships.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

AliceW said:


> Threads like this are a good example of why more meaningful conversations about business practices are now happening in private groups with smaller memberships.


I think this theme, which I see voiced often, though fortunately just by a handful of people, is itself damaging to the forum. How much would you want to come back to a place that's consistently maligned as somewhere the cool kids don't want to hang out anymore?

When you speak here, you're speaking to everyone. That poses challenges, yes, but it's also a strength. Public discourse is always that way.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I think this theme, which I see voiced often, though fortunately just by a handful of people, is itself damaging to the forum. How much would you want to come back to a place that's consistently maligned as somewhere the cool kids don't want to hang out anymore?
> 
> When you speak here, you're speaking to everyone. That poses challenges, yes, but it's also a strength. Public discourse is always that way.


I've seen lots of writers come and go here for all types of reasons. Some were run off, some, like Hocking just had her own personal reasons for leaving. Some don't have time for forums because they're busy making money. Kboards is still here. It'll be here tomorrow. It's sad when people go. It's exciting when new people get there first big hit and stick around for awhile to share their advice. But if you hang around for another five years, chances are you won't see many of the same names posting. There's like four people still here from when I first joined.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I was successful as soon as I published. Yes it was easy. No I did not market, or very little. I did blog tours in the beginning to get reviews. That was about it.


That's what Amanda Hocking did (reached out to bloggers), which she credits to her career skyrocketing.

But regardless of the bloggers and BookBub ads, as someone upthread said, 'stickiness' is what counts. And that stickiness is having readers recommend your book(s) by 'word of mouth.'

Rosalind may not market as much as do some others, but when she does, her books stick and keep sticking. Why? Because she elicits an emotional response from her readers and they go on to tell others about it.

Everyone says to _'write the books people want to read'_ but I believe it's more important to _'write the books people want to share/recommend.'_

Majority of the books that have readers recommending them elicit that 'emotional' response that reaches into the reader's soul and leaves them breathless. Whether it's romance, action/adventure, SF/Fantasy, mystery/thriller, etc., the reader has to close that book in the end and say, _'Damn. I gotta tell so-and-so about this book!'_

That's what keeps books selling in quantities daily and brings longterm success to an author.

Boosts via BookBub and other large mailing lists vendors are great, but if the book drops back to the 100,000+ ranking in a few days or even a couple of weeks, then although it may be a great read with tons of 4 & 5-star reviews saying they _'loved it,'_ if those readers keep that love to themselves without caring to refer the book, then that book wasn't emotional enough (whether that be to shed tears, laugh out loud, or make their heart pump wildly).

So how do we write books that readers want to recommend? Evoke emotional response in our storytelling. And if we don't know how to do that ... study the top 'consistent' earners of our genre and learn from them. I say 'consistent' because some authors at any given time hits the Top 100 (due to Bookbub, etc. ads), so you have to look at if their other books are selling/ranking well too.

I've found 'KDSpy' wonderful for this very purpose. When you click on an author profile and implement KDSpy, you can see all the current rankings on all their books. It's really cool.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

wheart said:


> So how do we write books that readers want to recommend? Evoke emotional response in our storytelling.


If your own writing (speaking of romance novels) doesn't make you laugh and cry, it might lack that certain something. Admittedly that's based on a small sample.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Dpock said:


> If your own writing (speaking of romance novels) doesn't make you laugh and cry, it might lack that certain something. Admittedly that's based on a small sample.


Exactly! If our tears aren't dribbling when we're writing an emotional scene, or we're not cringing when our antagonist is about to kill the next victim, or laughing/chuckling when we're injecting humorous banter, then why would our readers do so?

That reminds me of the movie 'Romancing the Stone' (I think it was? It's been a while since I saw that movie so I think that's the one) where Kathleen Turner is blubbering as she's typing away at her manuscript


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Becca Mills said:


> FYI, one of the things you've quoted was me responding to MonkishScribe, not the Monk himself.


I stand corrected, Becca. I'm sorry for the mistake, and I have corrected it. It was your quote, after all.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> The fact is, however, if she has had one Bookbub ad every month or so for several years, then Bookbub is doing the heavy lifting, and that translates into thousands and thousands of books sold. This makes Bookbub look pretty much like the biggest reason for her staggering sales.


But she doesn't have a lot of BookBubs. Sigh. She got a few at the beginning when they were just starting out and didn't earn you that much money. The person using hyperbole and suggesting she is getting 12 a year was being ... I don't know, bitter maybe.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

AliceW said:


> As someone wanting to grow their business, there is far more value for me in listening to the variety of experiences from authors like Rosalind, Chris, Elizabeth or Annie. Someone like Deblombardi who doesn't share anything but simply criticises, doesn't add any value IMO. When interesting discussions are derailed by finger pointing from someone who wants to be pedantic then any value in the conversation is lost. Threads like this are a good example of why more meaningful conversations about business practices are now happening in private groups with smaller memberships.


Listening and not responding is fine. You can't learn unless you listen. But not everyone sees the world through your eyes, and sometimes people will offer criticism after listening. You can't say that criticism doesn't add value to a discussion. Otherwise, there would be only one voice and it wouldn't be a discussion at all. It would be an original poster, followed by dozens of congratulatory nods. Criticism is not, by definition, finger pointing or pedantry. It is a healthy, necessary component of any real discussion, and muzzling it is _never_ a good idea.

As Becca said, it's the forum's "publicness" that everyone should remember. If you want to preach to the choir, go to church.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

wheart said:


> Exactly! If our tears aren't dribbling when we're writing an emotional scene, or we're not cringing when our antagonist is about to kill the next victim, or laughing/chuckling when we're injecting humorous banter, then why would our readers do so?
> 
> That reminds me of the movie 'Romancing the Stone' (I think it was? It's been a while since I saw that movie so I think that's the one) where Kathleen Turner is blubbering as she's typing away at her manuscript


I'm SO like that. I cry at my own happy endings. As if I didn't know it was coming and I wrote the darn thing! But I also cry at sweet dogs on toilet roll commercials so I'm probably just a bit highly emotional


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Don Donovan said:



> Listening and not responding is fine. You can't learn unless you listen. But not everyone sees the world through your eyes, and sometimes people will offer criticism after listening.


There's a big difference between open criticism and simply tearing down another author and implying they are a liar. I frequently don't agree with other posters, but you can explore different viewpoints without some of the needless pulling down done by a small minority in this thread. 
When I'm listening to someone's perspective then their background helps me decide how much weight to give that viewpoint. A poster like Deblombardi who has never shared any experiences and from their posts appears to have little publishing experience/success has less weight than some of the more experienced posters who are open about their experiences, trials and tribulations.

I never said I wanted to preach to the choir and I have no idea where you pulled that from.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't usually, but I heard the first half of my audio book last night and I almost cried. He nailed it...exactly as I had imagined it should sound. It's written from the point of view of my dad about his grandparents. My dad is losing his battle to cancer, so I really want to get this published so he can hear it. Okay, oversharing, but it's been a long day.


I'm sorry, Lorri! Did he listen to it? What a sweet thing to do for him.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Evenstar said:


> I'm SO like that. I cry at my own happy endings. As if I didn't know it was coming and I wrote the darn thing!


LOL, that's great, Evenstar! 



Evenstar said:


> But I also cry at sweet dogs on toilet roll commercials so I'm probably just a bit highly emotional






Lorri Moulton said:


> I don't usually, but I heard the first half of my audio book last night and I almost cried. He nailed it...exactly as I had imagined it should sound. It's written from the point of view of my dad about his grandparents. My dad is losing his battle to cancer, so I really want to get this published so he can hear it. Okay, oversharing, but it's been a long day.


Sorry to hear about your dad, Lorri  . What a wonderful thing you're doing for him.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> i think part of the problem is that many of us have different ideas on what a market is. To me a market is a specific group or audience. So writing to market is writing a book that pleases that audience. So technically, all books are written to market. The underlying factor is the SIZE & HUNGER of that market.
> 
> Rosalind wrote the books she wanted to read. But she had no real idea just how large the audience for her brand of fiction was.
> 
> ...


Oh ffs... I did not deliberately target Urban Fantasy because I felt it was under served. There were tons of great UF series before I wrote any. I specifically pointed out why I chose it in this very thread. That genre fit the things I love to read about the most. I wanted to write it. Even if it had been as swamped with cruddy books by people who don't understand the genre and scammy cheaters as UF sadly is now, I *still* would have written the series I'm writing. I'm planning at least two more UF series, too, despite the above because I love this genre.

Basically... if you think that spending X amount on ads is going to propel your income into the 6 figures, well... it might. But only if you have everything else in place enough that people want to keep buying your work. And plenty of people who earn 100k or more do not spend tons of time or money on advertising. I think that's all some of us are trying to say. There are other effective methods of getting and maintaining visibility, things I would argue that must come first before you dump a lot of money into external ads (like hooky concept, good book, great blurb, genre-fitting pro cover etc).

Also... I know that my success is replicable because I've helped other people replicate it to varying degrees over the last couple years (not all to 6 figures, but definitely into "don't need a cruddy day job" territory). So I have some confidence that at least parts of what I did still work for other people. I share my data and methods because hey, I figure information is good and people can take it or leave it depending on their goals and what they are willing to do. But as a business person, I personally prefer to have more information than less.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2017)

C. Gockel said:


> But she doesn't have a lot of BookBubs. Sigh. She got a few at the beginning when they were just starting out and didn't earn you that much money. The person using hyperbole and suggesting she is getting 12 a year was being ... I don't know, bitter maybe.





Rosalind J said:


> I did a standalone free promo earlier this year that was surprisingly successful in terms of follow-on sales and, especially, KU borrows, to the tune of a couple hundred thousand page reads a day on that book in the weeks following the promo.
> 
> I've done both paid & free BookBub promos, and quite a few of each--somewhere over 15 in all. Free has always paid off much better for me. I don't know if that'll still hold true given recent events. I guess I'll find out as I have one coming up in a couple weeks.


They were exaggerating but Rosalind has had _tons_ of bookbubs, which she admits. Not that it matters though, I've seen others get a boobbub and then a few weeks later drop down to obscurity all over again. You still need a book that people want to read.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

I can't decide which is more disappointing: the direction of this thread or the latest season of _Orange Is The New Black_.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> I can't decide which is more disappointing: the direction of this thread or the latest season of _Orange Is The New Black_.


I've only seen a few episodes of the new _Orange Is The New Black_ and I'm liking it so far... so I'd go for this thread.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

I rarely ever pop in - I think I may be up to 20 posts by now, but I'm not a newbie. I've been a member since 2010 (November 10, 2010, in fact - I just looked it up), and started writing/publishing in various venues in 2005. I've been here a lot over the past 6+ years, but only recently decided to post, mainly because it was on here that I learned of a tip that grew my newsletter, and I wanted to say thank you. FWIW, I'm not in the $100,000 club, although for a handful of years I was well on my way. Then it all tanked - but that's another story. 

At any rate, now that I'm here, it seems to me there's been a massive misunderstanding on this thread. I didn't find the questioning by two posters to be offensive, and I don't think they meant to antagonize. I also don't think they meant to insinuate anyone was being dishonest. I thought their points were valid, and politely expressed. An overnight success is rarely ever that. There are typically years of planning, either conscious or unconscious, that lead up to that success - and kudos to all who "make" it. In addition, success is based on a series of known and unknown factors. We can control for the knowns, but the unknowns tend to be problematic. If we choose to share the knowns, we need to be mindful of sharing all of them; otherwise, we present an unbalanced picture.  

Many on here have said it's sad when longtime posters leave. I agree, but what moved me to post on this thread was the thought that it's also sad when new posters feel they aren't welcome to raise valid questions and concerns. It's only natural to feel protective over someone we know and admire, particularly if we know that person is feeling vulnerable due to personal issues they've expressed. But that doesn't necessarily mean questioning that person's memory of their experience is a bad thing. 

One of the reasons I've been here more lately, as opposed to Amazon's KDP forum (where I've been more active over the years), is that the KDP forum is notoriously rude to newcomers. I've checked in here twice today, and twice seen negative responses to newcomers, which was hugely disappointing. We were all new at one time, and we all had valid questions, as annoying as they may have been to the old-timers. KBoards is all about questioning - or has been, at least, in the years I've lurked. That's part of its role in the indie community.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

MClayton said:


> I rarely ever pop in - I think I may be up to 20 posts by now, but I'm not a newbie. I've been a member since 2010 (November 10, 2010, in fact - I just looked it up), and started writing/publishing in various venues in 2005. I've been here a lot over the past 6+ years, but only recently decided to post, mainly because it was on here that I learned of a tip that grew my newsletter, and I wanted to say thank you. FWIW, I'm not in the $100,000 club, although for a handful of years I was well on my way. Then it all tanked - but that's another story.
> 
> At any rate, now that I'm here, it seems to me there's been a massive misunderstanding on this thread. I didn't find the questioning by two posters to be offensive, and I don't think they meant to antagonize. I also don't think they meant to insinuate anyone was being dishonest. I thought their points were valid, and politely expressed. An overnight success is rarely ever that. There are typically years of planning, either conscious or unconscious, that lead up to that success - and kudos to all who "make" it. In addition, success is based on a series of known and unknown factors. We can control for the knowns, but the unknowns tend to be problematic. If we choose to share the knowns, we need to be mindful of sharing all of them; otherwise, we present an unbalanced picture.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. Somehow, someway, my pushing back has had the effect of bashing a hornet's nest. And I've seen a lot of assumptions about me. I'm unsuccessful, I'm bitter. All because I wanted to make the point that marketing is important, and it does no favors to makes posts saying that it's not. I get that I pushed back on a revered member, but since when is asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies heresy? Newbies need the full story about successful indies and how they got successful and stayed that way. I'm not sure why asking for that is a problem.

I know nobody will believe me, but I'm neither unsuccessful nor bitter. But whatever. I'm anonymous, so nobody will ever know the truth. But damn, making assumptions...you know what they say when you assume - it makes an ass of you and me.

But, you're right. I feel less than welcome here, especially now, so I shall now flounce off myself. Sorry for causing so much trouble. 

Yeah, yeah, I know. I won't let the door hit me on the way out. If you're thinking that, you don't have to say it. I just said it for you.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Deblombardi said:


> Thank you for that. Somehow, someway, my pushing back has had the effect of bashing a hornet's nest. And I've seen a lot of assumptions about me. I'm unsuccessful, I'm bitter. All because I wanted to make the point that marketing is important, and it does no favors to makes posts saying that it's not. I get that I pushed back on a revered member, but since when is asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies heresy? Newbies need the full story about successful indies and how they got successful and stayed that way. I'm not sure why asking for that is a problem.
> 
> I know nobody will believe me, but I'm neither unsuccessful nor bitter. But whatever. I'm anonymous, so nobody will ever know the truth. But damn, making assumptions...you know what they say when you assume - it makes an ass of you and me.
> 
> ...


I think it'd be a fine thing if both you and Rosalind stayed on.

FWIW, I believe you when you say you're neither unsuccessful nor bitter. We're all about believing people here: we'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt for too long than err in the other direction.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> I think it'd be a fine thing if both you and Rosalind stayed on.


As a longtime lurker, so do I.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Anarchist said:


> I can't decide which is more disappointing: the direction of this thread or the latest season of _Orange Is The New Black_.


I just finished episode 9 and I'm loving it so far! No spoilers please!



Deblombardi said:


> I know nobody will believe me, but I'm neither unsuccessful nor bitter. But whatever. I'm anonymous, so nobody will ever know the truth. But damn, making assumptions...you know what they say when you assume - it makes an ass of you and me.


Yeah, I find it quite disappointing that people would pull the anonymous/bitter/unsuccessful card just because you dared question a respected member here. I found that you came on a bit strong at times, but I still don't think you deserved to be treated like a [insert your favorite insult here]. It's beyond the pale, frankly.



DustinM said:


> They were exaggerating but Rosalind has had _tons_ of bookbubs, which she admits. Not that it matters though, I've seen others get a boobbub and then a few weeks later drop down to obscurity all over again. You still need a book that people want to read.


Thanks for posting that quote. I distinctly remembered Rosalind saying 15 BookBub's but couldn't find the quote. Let's be honest, that's a game-changing, *MASSIVE* amount. It's a testament to her books (writing, covers, the whole package) that BB would accept her that many times (and she's in KU), but yeah, you don't need to do much marketing if you can get a BB that easily. BB is the best marketing you can get in this business. Or is BookBub not considered part of marketing?


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

This isn't in reply to anybody specific. It's a general comment. Rosalind wasn't deceiving anybody. Just because she didn't mention Bookbub every time she talked about her career doesn't mean she was downplaying its effect on her sales. She clearly believes, and I don't doubt her for a second, that it was HER BOOKS that made her a hit. Bookbub sure as heck didn't hurt, but if she hadn't already been writing stuff people want to read, the Bookbub wouldn't have shown a lasting effect on her sales, and she sure wouldn't have gotten more of them. 

I totally get the points made here that Bookbub is advertising and such. I get it, I do. But it does almost feel like Rosalind has been vilified, and that's not cool. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but it still turned out that way. 

I think there may be too much emphasis on protecting newbies, as if someone doesn't list everything they did every time it's somehow going to lead people astray. Welp, we all have the wonderful sorcery that is Google. And all Ros' posts at Kboards are here for the finding. I have always, always advocated that one should look at what people do and not what they say. Not because I think people are disingenuous, but because perspective matters. Some people might not think x made that much of a difference to their careers, when others think it was a big deal. Just look at what people do and figure it out for yourself. 

And trust that other people will do the same. If they can't manage to do a little research in the information age, well, you're not going to be able to save someone like that anyway.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

I think one point we may be missing is that back in the early days of modern self-publishing, things were very different. Getting picked up by a well-known ad site, blog, or reviewer made a _huge _difference. That's no longer the case. Heck, most of the review blogs and reviewers I found when I first self-published are long gone. But back then, if one happened to be lucky enough to be recognized and could also produce quickly [Edited to add: assuming there was a good product to begin with], it was more or less a guaranteed recipe for success. I was lucky in that I got picked up and recognized, but I don't have the ability or discipline to publish as quickly as I'd need to publish to stay that way. That's on me, but even so, I think when newbies come along and want to join the $100,000 club, we need to remember the self-publishing world today isn't remotely what it was even a few short years ago.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

What Writes at Midnight said:


> I'm not seeing a conflict in ideas here. Would anybody here dispute these facts?
> 
> 1 -BookBub is an advertising assist.


Agree.



> 2 -Advertising assists, whether involving BookBub or not, just might be essential to success in today's market.


Yes. Frequent releases also help.



> 3 -Advertising assists aren't enough for long-term success.


They can certainly help. Especially if we're talking BookBubs. Yes, there are plenty of failed Bookbubs. They might get a boost for a bit and slide right back to where they were before. But when you can get 15 BookBubs fairly close together one right after the other? Yes, that can lead to long-term success if your books are good enough (they don't even have to be excellent, they just have to have enough fans). I think it's one of the reasons why Rosalind doesn't have to publish as often as some other writers. The BBs exposed her to thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of readers and kept that momentum going. Once you have thousands of fans, you have long-term success.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Not that many people get frequent Bookbubs, I'm sure we all agree. So basically it comes down to a chicken and egg question. Is it the frequent Bookbubs that contribute to her success, or it is it the fact that she writes good books that appeal to her audience that keeps _getting_ her the Bookbubs.

I guess opinions vary, but I fall squarely on the side of the latter.

Yeah, that first Bookbub made a difference. She wouldn't have kept getting them if her books weren't something the audience was clamoring for. Chicken/egg.

If someone hears her say that she doesn't market all that much today, and writes what they want with no marketing and doesn't make six figures and can't understand why, I'm super sorry, but that's on them. It's the same if someone sees our revered Yoda writing 12k a day and assumes that's all it takes to be a hit. Personal responsibility. Do the research.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> Not that many people get frequent Bookbubs, I'm sure we all agree. So basically it comes down to a chicken and egg questions. Is it the frequent Bookbubs that contribute to her success, or it is it the fact that she writes good books that appeal to her audience that keeps _getting_ her the Bookbubs.
> 
> I guess opinions vary, but I fall squarely on the side of the latter.
> 
> Yeah, that first Bookbub made a difference. She wouldn't have kept getting them if her books weren't something the audience was clamoring for. Chicken/egg.


It doesn't have to be either/or. I think it's a bit of both, honestly. She was successful with those first three books before BookBub picked her up, but then BookBub upped the ante with 93,000 (?) free downloads or something like that. I'm sure that helped a lot. As did the other BookBubs after that. She might still be successful today if BB never looked her way, but I don't think she'd be as successful. And I think she would probabaly have to have more frequent releases as well to keep that success.



> If someone hears her say that she doesn't market all that much today, and writes what they want with no marketing and doesn't make six figures and can't understand why, I'm super sorry, but that's on them. It's the same if someone sees our revered Yoda writing 12k a day and assumes that's all it takes to be a hit. Personal responsibility. Do the research.


Agree with this. Even Amanda hasn't been able to replicate the success of her main name with her pen name, though it's still doing great by most people's standards.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> It doesn't have to be either/or. I think it's a bit of both, honestly. She was successful with those first three books before BookBub picked her up, but then BookBub upped the ante with 93,000 (?) free downloads or something like that. I'm sure that helped a lot. As did the other BookBubs after that. She might still be successful today if BB never looked her way, but I don't think she'd be as successful. And I think she would probabaly have to have more frequent releases as well to keep that success.


That may be true. But I think I fall more toward the idea that she wrote good enough books and would have gotten Bookbubs eventually anyway because of it. And if we're coming down on the idea that she never got a Bookbub, then a lot of other people wouldn't have, either. Know what I mean? I look back at the people who were killing it in 2011 and 2012, and most of them are nowhere to be found. And then you have people like Rosalind who are wiping the floor with it. Jana falls into that category, too. She didn't disappear after her first couple of bestsellers, she kept kicking butt and taking names. If she started today, Rosalind too, I suspect they'd do the same.

I think we agree more than not. You're almost like my shadow-side, frankly. I often agree with you, but think _wow, I agree, but I wouldn't have said it quite that way_, and some people think I'm already too blunt.  (I prefer the idea that I'm too *honest*.) So it's no surprise to me that our ideas fall in line.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> That may be true. But I think I fall more toward the idea that she wrote good enough books and would have gotten Bookbubs eventually anyway because of it. And if we're coming down on the idea that she never got a Bookbub, then a lot of other people wouldn't have, either. Know what I mean? I look back at the people who were killing it in 2011 and 2012, and most of them are nowhere to be found. And then you have people like Rosalind who are wiping the floor with it. Jana falls into that category, too. She didn't disappear after her first couple of bestsellers, she kept kicking butt and taking names. If she started today, Rosalind too, I suspect they'd do the same.
> 
> I think we agree more than not. You're almost like my shadow-side, frankly. I often agree with you, but think _wow, I agree, but I wouldn't have said it quite that way_, and some people think I'm already too blunt.  (I prefer the idea that I'm too *honest*.) So it's no surprise to me that our ideas fall in line.


Come to the dark side, we have cookies! 

I agree that in order to stay successful you have to keep giving readers what they want: books they want to read. Both Rosalind and Jana do that. And plus Rosalind's books are on the longer side, so someone might be writing eight books a year but the word count would be equivalent to her four. She's definitely not resting on her laurels or anything like that.

The only bit I would disagree with you about is that writing good books leads to getting Bookbubs anyway. That would imply that all the authors who aren't getting BookBubs are writing rubbish or that every author that gets a BookBub is writing good books. We all know that's not true. I think BookBub is mostly a sign that they think the book is marketable or it'll fill a certain niche category they're advertising to. They don't have time to read all the books they feature. They can look at the cover, reviews (we know these can be bought), and rank/bestseller status (another thing that can be bought, unfortunately).


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

NeedWant said:


> Come to the dark side, we have cookies!


But do you have alcohol? That's my deal-breaker.



> The only bit I would disagree with you about is that writing good books leads to getting Bookbubs anyway. That would imply that all the authors who aren't getting BookBubs are writing rubbish or that every author that gets a BookBub is writing good books. We all know that's not true. I think BookBub is mostly a sign that they think the book is marketable or it'll fill a certain niche category they're advertising to. They don't have time to read all the books they feature. They can look at the cover, reviews (we know these can be bought), and rank/bestseller status (another thing that can be bought, unfortunately).


No, I don't think that all authors who write good books get Bookbubs, or that someone who has tried unsuccessfully to get a Bookbub is a lesser writer. Nothing like that. I can point to several people who prove that not to be true. Chris Fox springs to mind. I know "good" is always relative, but I still feel pretty confident that every good book doesn't get a Bookbub. There aren't enough slots for that to be possible. I know it was asserted earlier in the thread that if you write a good book you will 100% get a Bookbub. I heartily disagree with that.

But I think Bookbub only picks up books they think are marketable, and if you take a case like Ros', it's easy to see that if they hadn't done it early in her career, they might have eventually anyway. I guess that's a subjective opinion, too, but it feels pretty right to me. And even without one, she'd probably still be doing awesome. I will grant you that her first Bookbub, unexpected, back when Bookbub was new and just getting a foothold, made a hell of a difference. Without it, maybe she wouldn't be doing quite as well as she is, but again, we can't know it. Maybe she would have just had to wait a little longer to break out big-time.

We don't get an 'It's a Wonderful Life' moment, to see how things would have turned out with different choices. Maybe I'm more optimistic than I seem in believing that in most stellar writing careers, it's not one thing that makes the difference, but a combination of things, including books that people want to read. Take Stephen King, for instance *crosses myself and throws salt over my shoulder*. If he'd followed up Carrie with Gerald's Game instead of Salem's Lot and The Stand, would kids in B-track sophomore English still be reading his books for a grade? Nobody knows. I probably wouldn't have been a fan, since Gerald's Game is the one book of King's I hated and abandoned unfinished, but Salem's Lot and The Stand are two of my favorites.

It's all kind of a moot point, really. We can't know the might-have-beens. I'm rambling now thanks to too much chardonnay, but I still think we agree more than not.


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## MattHaggis (May 1, 2017)

There is no comparison between Bookbubs now to when they first started out and had to give away spots. If someone did well with one of those early day spots it's because their book ticked all the boxes and a slight bump in visibility brought readers in. Now you can rely on their huge mailing lists, back then they didn't have them.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Shelley K said:


> But do you have alcohol? That's my deal-breaker.


Of course! 

And yeah, we can only speculate about what might have been if some things happened differently. I do think we agree more than not, though!



MattHaggis said:


> There is no comparison between Bookbubs now to when they first started out and had to give away spots. If someone did well with one of those early day spots it's because their book ticked all the boxes and a slight bump in visibility brought readers in. Now you can rely on their huge mailing lists, back then they didn't have them.


I'm not too well versed in the history of BookBub but I know people have been singing their praises here since at least 2012. I also remember someone saying that they already had a good email list and were expanding it back then. Of course, we can all agree that their list is bigger now. Can't say I think they were small potatoes back then, though. Someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong, with some cold hard facts preferably.

Also, the thing you said about ticking all the boxes reminded me about what people have said about the Golden Age of self-publishing, where you could put a crappy cover on a book and have thousands of downloads during a free promo and then ride the tail from the free list to the paid list (this was before Amazon changed that little algo). I remember coming across a book in my genre with a horrible cover recently. It was the latest installment in a long running series and the reviews and ranking were all good. I thought to myself "this person probably got their fanbase in the early days of KDP" and I looked up their first publication, and I was actually right.

I hate to be that guy, but things _were_ a lot easier back in the day. Having a crappy cover or crappy editing didn't stop people from building careers. Sustaining them is a different story. But hey, that crappy cover book I saw had a pretty nice ranking.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

NeedWant said:


> Of course!
> 
> And yeah, we can only speculate about what might have been if some things happened differently. I do think we agree more than not, though!
> 
> ...


Back then Bookbub's lists were smaller, but interestingly, I saw more downloads. My very first Bookbub back in April, 2014 was by far still my best one. The market was very different then. My book saw 27k downloads in the week before Bookbub ran, just because I set it free--with no promo. Total downloads on Amazon for Bookbub promo period was 125k and another 25k at iBooks. That was crazy. That doesn't happen now to me, not even close. Bookbub was shiny and new and people were opening the email every day. Now, even though the list size is million+ on some categories, I think people are now so bombarded with daily emails that they don't open them every day. And even when they do, it can be overwhelming for readers as there are now all these instafreebie promos and mailing lists. I think readers can only read so many books, even if they are free. I know I used to open the BB email daily, now I open a few times a week, mostly because I know if I open the email, I will be buying or downloading a book and my stack is already sky high.

So, Bookbub is still super awesome, and I'll take one whenever I can get one, but they are not as insane as they used to be. On that first Bookbub I also got over 300 sign ups to my email list during the Bookbub promo period. That hasn't happened since. Not even close.

If you can get one though, it's still my favorite way to help launch a new book--a free promo on book one or early book in a series when the new book launches, ideally a week later though I take whatever they will give....being flexible on the dates helps a lot. It does seem tougher to get a Bookbub lately. I'm lucky in that they do take my books often but they've been saying no lately, and in their response to my last two rejections which were both on previously promoted books (I automatically submit when the six month mark hits), they said they want to wait a while longer so they aren't repeating books as often. Which makes sense.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

PamelaKelley said:


> Back then Bookbub's lists were smaller, but interestingly, I saw more downloads. My very first Bookbub back in April, 2014 was by far still my best one. The market was very different then. My book saw 27k downloads in the week before Bookbub ran, just because I set it free--with no promo. Total downloads on Amazon for Bookbub promo period was 125k and another 25k at iBooks. That was crazy. That doesn't happen now to me, not even close. Bookbub was shiny and new and people were opening the email every day. Now, even though the list size is million+ on some categories, I think people are now so bombarded with daily emails that they don't open them every day. And even when they do, it can be overwhelming for readers as there are now all these instafreebie promos and mailing lists. I think readers can only read so many books, even if they are free. I know I used to open the BB email daily, now I open a few times a week, mostly because I know if I open the email, I will be buying or downloading a book and my stack is already sky high.
> 
> So, Bookbub is still super awesome, and I'll take one whenever I can get one, but they are not as insane as they used to be. On that first Bookbub I also got over 300 sign ups to my email list during the Bookbub promo period. That hasn't happened since. Not even close.
> 
> If you can get one though, it's still my favorite way to help launch a new book--a free promo on book one or early book in a series when the new book launches, ideally a week later though I take whatever they will give....being flexible on the dates helps a lot. It does seem tougher to get a Bookbub lately. I'm lucky in that they do take my books often but they've been saying no lately, and in their response to my last two rejections which were both on previously promoted books (I automatically submit when the six month mark hits), they said they want to wait a while longer so they aren't repeating books as often. Which makes sense.


Thank you for sharing this! Those numbers are amazing! 27k just by setting the book free! Can I go back in time please? lol

And yeah, BookBub is still king. They keep rejecting me, but that won't stop me from submitting!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> I get that I pushed back on a revered member, but since when is asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies heresy?


That _sounds_ innocent enough, but what you *actually* did was you instructed Rosalind on how she should and should not post. You _literally_ did that, as though you were her communications expert, saying _"Do say this"_, _"Be like that"_!

*None* of us should pretend the straw that broke the camel's back with how Rosalind feels about posting here right now was simply because someone _"asked questions"_ or _"pointed out inconsistencies"_.

Case in point:

[quote author=Deblombardi]
*Just be forthright in your posts* - say that you get multiple BookBubs, one of your books is in Prime, etc. There's no shame in any of that, but the people who read your posts need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. *Don't say that you rely only on WOM in one post, then talk about getting 15 BookBubs in another. Be consistent. That's what we're looking for.*[/quote]

The sheer idea of _anyone_ coming to Kboards (Rosalind or a 100kauthor or a prawn), for their own reasons, and sharing their own stories and insights, for their own reasons, to have to face people who literally *demand* you conform to how _they_ want you to post is something we all need to reject, in the strongest possible terms. The post quoted above is *harassment*, pure and simple. It's *extremely denigrating* to push someone else to talk about their own business the way _you_ feel they must. *No one* wants to come and engage in an activity they're meant to _enjoy_, only to be *harassed* by people they don't even know because they feel they're *owed* and *entitled* that you _dance_ for them.

I'd like to say to the entire community, and the moderators as well, that if you don't want to poison the well here for successful authors, you'll ensure this type of behavior is rejected, officially, in the rules, and unofficially, in terms of what we as posters will and will not accept.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

PamelaKelley said:


> Back then Bookbub's lists were smaller, but interestingly, I saw more downloads. My very first Bookbub back in April, 2014 was by far still my best one. The market was very different then. My book saw 27k downloads in the week before Bookbub ran, just because I set it free--with no promo. Total downloads on Amazon for Bookbub promo period was 125k and another 25k at iBooks. That was crazy. That doesn't happen now to me, not even close. Bookbub was shiny and new and people were opening the email every day. Now, even though the list size is million+ on some categories, I think people are now so bombarded with daily emails that they don't open them every day. And even when they do, it can be overwhelming for readers as there are now all these instafreebie promos and mailing lists. I think readers can only read so many books, even if they are free. I know I used to open the BB email daily, now I open a few times a week, mostly because I know if I open the email, I will be buying or downloading a book and my stack is already sky high.
> 
> So, Bookbub is still super awesome, and I'll take one whenever I can get one, but they are not as insane as they used to be. On that first Bookbub I also got over 300 sign ups to my email list during the Bookbub promo period. That hasn't happened since. Not even close.
> 
> If you can get one though, it's still my favorite way to help launch a new book--a free promo on book one or early book in a series when the new book launches, ideally a week later though I take whatever they will give....being flexible on the dates helps a lot. It does seem tougher to get a Bookbub lately. I'm lucky in that they do take my books often but they've been saying no lately, and in their response to my last two rejections which were both on previously promoted books (I automatically submit when the six month mark hits), they said they want to wait a while longer so they aren't repeating books as often. Which makes sense.


I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but back in the early days of Bookbub, Amazon didn't divide free and paid books. So if your free book got a crapload of downloads from a Bookbub, then once you went to paid, your high ranking was the same.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

crow.bar.beer said:


> That _sounds_ innocent enough, but what you *actually* did was you instructed Rosalind on how she should and should not post. You _literally_ did that, as though you were her communications expert, saying _"Do say this"_, _"Be like that"_!
> 
> *None* of us should pretend the straw that broke the camel's back with how Rosalind feels about posting here right now was simply because someone _"asked questions"_ or _"pointed out inconsistencies"_.
> 
> ...


I'm going to politely disagree with you, not over intent -- because I think there's merit to acceptance and non-acceptance in terms of harassment, certainly -- but over degree.

If a person posts to instruct, even to share instructional stories, here, then I fully agree they should not be disingenuous about what they post. Deb saw inconsistencies and pointed them out. I've done the same. If no one does that and we all take everyone's anecdotes at face value in an *instructional* setting, especially someone we look up to as a mentor, and that mentor presents inconsistent statements, then I don't believe there's anything wrong with saying that. In fact, I don't see anything in what you quoted as being harassment. A little blunt, perhaps. Perhaps Deb could have softened the tone a bit. But I'm a blunt person, and likely would have phrased my comment in the same way, whether I was addressing Rosalind, someone completely unknown to me, or a good friend.

What you find denigrating and demanding and harassing, I find simply being honest in how *they perceived* the information handed out. It's a community forum. If I can't tell you (or suggest bluntly) how to impart information to better help me learn and understand in an instructional environment because...rules, then you can't tell me how I should receive that information. My experience is just as valid.

And that's why this forum is a bit different, in *my* opinion. Because we do have mentors here. Because most threads and posts *are* instructional to some degree. Because if we can't question and figure out who's being forthright and honest, then we end up with folk able to come here, pretend to be something they're not, pretend to get honest results even if they aren't being honest, and, in some cases as we've seen, actually do harm to others because their words here in this very forum went unvetted. And while I have one recent member in mind, of course, while I type this, I can think of several others, most no longer here, who were looked up to yet who were spouting utter nonsense.

So, how do we vet and do our due diligence about the information or the person imparting it if this forum has become the de facto wikipedia of self-pubbing, and yet no one is allowed to challenge anyone in a fairly respectful manner? See the two-edged sword here?

All the above is general, and pertains to anyone. As for Rosalind, I like her. I respect her. She's incredibly successful. I've supported her many times here and think what she has to say is important. I've also disagreed with her about some of her visions/beliefs/assessments about things such as how much luck is or isn't a factor in an author's success. I *personally* think she's unique in the way Hugh Howey was unique, given the content of her writing, the quality of her writing, the timing of her first release and the looseness of the Amazon algos at the time. It was, *IMO*, a perfect storm that simply isn't replicable today. One perfect storm begat a train of favorable algos, an Amazon rep, more Amazon pushes, etc., bolstered by those early BookBub ads. Some of those same discoverability mechanisms are different today from what they were when she released. Not necessarily better or worse, but different.

I helped launch a couple of brand-new authors 5 years ago after helping a couple of name trad authors turn indie. TBH, I would not try to help launch anyone new today because I'm not sure I could give them the right advice in today's environment. The very, very few authors I do offer advice to these days are established authors with decent-sized catalogs and fan bases. And because I honestly wouldn't know how to help a newbie launch well today, then here on KBoards, I purposefully stay out of the discussions aimed at newbie launches. I provide only general advice on the algos and general anecdotes about how our catalog is performing given current circumstances.

In any case, I get that Rosalind felt hurt and attacked in this thread. I completely empathize with her on that. But I also would hope this forum is a place where folk can speak up and question advice when it's delivered in an instructional conversation. It's a balancing act to be sure, because, while again I have the deepest respect for Ros, I honestly didn't see a point where Deb crossed the line.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> I'm going to politely disagree with you, not over intent -- because I think there's merit to acceptance and non-acceptance in terms of harassment, certainly -- but over degree.
> 
> If a person posts to instruct, even to share instructional stories, here, then I fully agree they should not be disingenuous about what they post. Deb saw inconsistencies and pointed them out. I've done the same. If no one does that and we all take everyone's anecdotes at face value in an *instructional* setting, especially someone we look up to as a mentor, and that mentor presents inconsistent statements, then I don't believe there's anything wrong with saying that. In fact, I don't see anything in what you quoted as being harassment. A little blunt, perhaps. Perhaps Deb could have softened the tone a bit. But I'm a blunt person, and likely would have phrased my comment in the same way, whether I was addressing Rosalind, someone completely unknown to me, or a good friend.
> 
> ...


THIS ^^^


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> I'm going to politely disagree with you, not over intent -- because I think there's merit to acceptance and non-acceptance in terms of harassment, certainly -- but over degree.
> 
> If a person posts to instruct, even to share instructional stories, here, then I fully agree they should not be disingenuous about what they post. Deb saw inconsistencies and pointed them out. I've done the same. If no one does that and we all take everyone's anecdotes at face value in an *instructional* setting, especially someone we look up to as a mentor, and that mentor presents inconsistent statements, then I don't believe there's anything wrong with saying that. In fact, I don't see anything in what you quoted as being harassment. A little blunt, perhaps. Perhaps Deb could have softened the tone a bit. But I'm a blunt person, and likely would have phrased my comment in the same way, whether I was addressing Rosalind, someone completely unknown to me, or a good friend.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Phoenix. Hugs!

Now, I know that said yesterday that I'm gonna flounce, and I still will, but I have to say my piece. There is one reason why I decided to go ahead and push back on Rosalind. It's because her advice, in my view, is harmful. Why do I say that? Because she's been telling everybody that you can publish a book every 3-4 months, in a crowded genre like romance, and make mid to high six figures, relying just on WOM. That's not true. It might have been true back in 2011, when Colleen Hoover did it, and so did a lot of other well-established romance writers, like Madeline Sheehan - that was because, back in those days, if you got one or two powerful bloggers, like Maryse, you could go like gang-busters. There wasn't the competition there is now.

Now, ESPECIALLY in romance, and other genres, like UF, where there are 80 gazillion other writers trying to make a buck in your field, you have to market and advertise. Crystal on here talks about spending 5 figures a month on advertising, and she says that she knows of other romance writers spending 6 figures per month on advertising. Lord, I couldn't imagine that, but I take her at her word. She knows her field and she knows what it takes to stay on top.

Then along comes Ros and she constantly talks about not marketing, when you know darned well that she gets, at the very least, 2 BookBubs per year in contemporary romance, and she used to get one more often than that. I don't know how many per year she gets, I only know that she's had 15 total. Still, 2 BookBubs a year in contemporary romance? Plus she has a first-in-series in Prime? Yeah, that's more than enough for a good six figure income. I knew a girl who made $36,000 one year, and $360,000 the next, just because she kept getting BookBubs. Now, if she would have come on this board and talk about how she went from $36,000 per year to $360,000 and tried to say that it was just because she wrote hooky and had good covers, and everybody started virally telling their friends about her....draw your own conclusions there.

I pushed back, at first, as gently as I could. All I did in my first post was to point out that, when she had her 93,000 downloads early in her career, it was because of a BookBub ad. She was saying, or implying, that those 93,000 were from the ether - she was responding to a poster who said that he didn't know of anybody who hit it out of the park without advertising, and she said that she did from the start. Which she did, at first, but those 93,000 DLs were not out of the blue. She jumped down my throat at that point, then continued to say that she succeeded just because she was hooky. So, I pushed back harder. Perhaps I should have used a different tone, but I wanted the message to be crystal-clear - you can't earn that kind of money she does without some serious marketing push, unless you want to punish a TON - like a novel a month. Probably not even then. It's a myth that you can.

ETA - unless your name is Annie Bellet.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> I'm going to politely disagree with you, not over intent -- because I think there's merit to acceptance and non-acceptance in terms of harassment, certainly -- but over degree.
> 
> If a person posts to instruct, even to share instructional stories, here, then I fully agree they should not be disingenuous about what they post. Deb saw inconsistencies and pointed them out. I've done the same. If no one does that and we all take everyone's anecdotes at face value in an *instructional* setting, especially someone we look up to as a mentor, and that mentor presents inconsistent statements, then I don't believe there's anything wrong with saying that. In fact, I don't see anything in what you quoted as being harassment. A little blunt, perhaps. Perhaps Deb could have softened the tone a bit. But I'm a blunt person, and likely would have phrased my comment in the same way, whether I was addressing Rosalind, someone completely unknown to me, or a good friend.
> 
> ...


You see, I did feel that Deb crossed the line at times and was accusatory rather than questioning. I would have tried to phase it differently if I saw discrepancies in what any poster writes vs what I have read of them previously.

In fact, I read over Deb's recent posts and found that this is perhaps her tone in general and her slant on publishing, based on what I have read so maybe that's just her general tone. If that's the case, we can all decide to engage or not. No one has to read anyone's posts or respond.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> Thank you, Phoenix. Hugs!
> 
> Now, I know that said yesterday that I'm gonna flounce, and I still will, but I have to say my piece. There is one reason why I decided to go ahead and push back on Rosalind. It's because her advice, in my view, is harmful. Why do I say that? Because she's been telling everybody that you can publish a book every 3-4 months, in a crowded genre like romance, and make mid to high six figures, relying just on WOM. That's not true. It might have been true back in 2011, when Colleen Hoover did it, and so did a lot of other well-established romance writers - that was because, back in those days, if you got one or two powerful bloggers, like Maryse, you could go like gang-busters. There wasn't the competition there is now.
> 
> ...


I started a thread on another forum where many of us spend our time about the difference between launching an indie career back in the olden days vs. recently and how much more important spending $$$ on promotion and advertising. The purpose was to see what it takes today vs. back when things were different in the indie space.

Forex, when both Ros and I first launched, I did practically NO advertising for my breakout novel. A 25$ ad. Now, people can point and say that in 2013, things were really different. They were. My book just stared to sell. I suspect it was based on Amazon algorithms seeing early sales due to the very few readers I already had (I already had three low selling books out in a different romance category - paranormal) and that got it started then it spread via word of mouth. I held my first sale and it was like a Bookbub it was so effective. Then I did get a 99c Bookbub and that drove the book and series even higher. That book and series has been the bulk of my income for the past five years. Frequent Bookbubs (averaging 3 - 4 a year) has kept my income at a decent level with publishing 3 - 4 full length books a year in related series. I started to advertise more in 2014 after Mark Dawson's Facebook Advertising course came out and have spent about $2000 a month on Facebook ads. Combine that with regular Bookbubs and my revenues have remained relatively strong, six figures a year, low six figures (Average $200,000 a year over 5 years)

So, for me, what worked was:

- full length books
- series
- 3 - 4 releases a year
- Bookbub
- Facebook ads
- permafree first book in series
- wide distribution
- mailing list

My early success did not involve Facebook ads, or mailing lists, or permafree. Those all came after I started to make six figures. Now, it seems that those are a NECESSITY to keep it there. In fact, I'm writing twice as much this year as previous years and my revenues are lower.

That's the new world we are in. The world of KU, AMS, and a huge competitive field.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> If a person posts to instruct, even to share instructional stories, here, then I fully agree they should not be disingenuous about what they post. *Deb saw inconsistencies and pointed them out.* I've done the same. If no one does that and we all take everyone's anecdotes at face value in an *instructional* setting, especially someone we look up to as a mentor, and that mentor presents inconsistent statements, then I don't believe there's anything wrong with saying that. In fact, I don't see anything in what you quoted as being harassment. A little blunt, perhaps. Perhaps Deb could have softened the tone a bit. But I'm a blunt person, and likely would have phrased my comment in the same way, whether I was addressing Rosalind, someone completely unknown to me, or a good friend.


It's not about pointing out inconsistencies, though. I've seen Rosalind herself engage in lively discussion about inconsistencies or perceived inconsistencies plenty of times without there ever having been an issue.

*Phoenix, just be concise - say what you need to say without a lot of words. The people reading your points don't need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. Don't make us think you're going to make a solid point, then go on for lines and lines about all kinds of other things. Be concise. That's what we're looking for. *

See? It's not about being blunt. It's about telling someone else how they should and should not post. Of course it's harassment, and of course it's disparaging.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> It's not about pointing out inconsistencies, though. I've seen Rosalind herself engage in lively discussion about inconsistencies or perceived inconsistencies plenty of times without there ever having been an issue.
> 
> *Phoenix, just be concise - say what you need to say without a lot of words. The people reading your points don't need the entire story. That's all I'm saying. Don't make us think you're going to make a solid point, then go on for lines and lines about all kinds of other things. Be concise. That's what we're looking for. *
> 
> See? It's not about being blunt. It's about telling someone else how they should and should not post. Of course it's harassment, and of course it's disparaging.


Can I point the obvious hypocrisy here? You're telling me how to post and how to word my posts.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> Can I point the obvious hypocrisy here? You're telling me how to post and how to word my posts.


I never once told you what to do. I suggested to everyone else that'd be a good idea to reject that particular type of behavior from this community.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

sela said:


> That's the new world we are in. The world of KU, AMS, and a huge competitive field.


Thanks for that summary. Have you ever gone more than, say, a month or two, without FB, AMS or BB advertising, and if so, how dramatically did it affect sales?


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> I never once told you what to do. I suggested to everyone else that'd be a good idea to reject that particular type of behavior from this community.


A distinction without a difference.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Dpock said:


> Thanks for that summary. Have you ever gone more than, say, a month or two, without FB, AMS or BB advertising, and if so, how dramatically did it affect sales?


Sela (and others who are 100k+ earners) I'd be very interested in your response to this question.


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## Steve Voelker (Feb 27, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> See? It's not about being blunt. It's about telling someone else how they should and should not post. Of course it's harassment, and of course it's disparaging.


Are you telling us all how to post by saying that we can't post in a way that suggests how someone else should post? Now my brain hurts. 

In all seriousness, although there are a few moments of cringe in this thread, and some things that certainly could have been phrased with a bit more tact, I haven't seen anything I would consider actual harassment. And apparently, neither have the mods, since the posts and the threads are still here.

I can see the points of quite a few of the posters, and I agree and disagree with them to various extents. But that is why we are here. There is no single, correct answer to many of the questions posed on this forum. So people chime in with a vast array of experiences. It's the reason I keep coming back. I already know what worked for me. I like to see the diversity of opinions here. And I see everyone's opinion as carrying roughly the same weight until proven otherwise. If the new, or not as established people are afraid to rock the boat with questions, then this place is going to get very boring.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Deblombardi said:


> Can I point the obvious hypocrisy here? You're telling me how to post and how to word my posts.


Well, to be fair, there is a general sense of etiquette expected I guess. That's expected of all posters, prawns and leviathans. Some people found your posts to cross a line into rudeness and commented on it. You could have worded it differently to be less accusatory.

Here's your posts in question:



> ...I'm sorry, but Rosalind isn't telling *the whole story*. In other threads, *she* talks about getting 15 BookBubs over the course of her career. That works out to, what, about 3 1/2 BookBubs a year, in contemporary romance no less, over 4 and a half years? That's marketing. That's advertising. It's also something that most people won't be able to achieve. It's great that her books are good enough to get that many BookBubs, and, yes, once you get the exposure, you have to have the chops. But, yeah, *it's kinda nonsense* when she says that she doesn't advertise.


You could have responded to Rosalind directly and said something like:

Rosalind, in threads like this you've indicated that you rely on word of mouth and do little advertising. I understand you do get regular Bookbubs. How much of a factor do you think those Bookbubs have been in your success? While you may not do other kinds of advertising, Bookbub is one of the most effective kinds of promotion out there. Most authors can't get a Bookbub so I wonder if it's a substitute for paid advertising that people who don't get Bookbubs must do to maintain or improve visibility.

I think it's saying the same thing, but with less likelihood of coming off like you're accusing Rosalind of being disingenuous or outright deceptive. That's the way your post came off and it was worse because you weren't responding directly to Rosalind but to someone else, which made it feel quite gossipy.

YMMV


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## ############# (Nov 2, 2016)

crow.bar.beer said:


> I'd like to say to the entire community, and the moderators as well, that if you don't want to poison the well here for successful authors, you'll ensure this type of behavior is rejected, officially, in the rules, and unofficially, in terms of what we as posters will and will not accept.


So...a rule for the protection for successful authors. What will that matrix be? Number of posts? Length of time on the board? Sales numbers? How beloved they are among the other members?

I've seen a lot of uneven handed dealing on this board on a regular basis. I've seen thin-skin reactions, I've seen dogpiling. I've seen a commentor responding and getting kind and considered reactions in one thread and they get trampled and ignored in another.

Who was it said that there are three truths: Your truth, my truth and the truth? The problem with that is how we interpret what's been written on a forum. Someone interprets things one way, someone interprets it another. So now, we're calling for the silencing of anyone who doesn't agree and their delivery isn't adhering to someone else's comfort level?

Maybe if someone objects to something, how it was _said_ and how they _perceive_ it, report it to the mods and let them sort it out with the commentors.


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## Deblombardi (May 15, 2014)

sela said:


> Well, to be fair, there is a general sense of etiquette expected I guess. That's expected of all posters, prawns and leviathans. Some people found your posts to cross a line into rudeness and commented on it. You could have worded it differently to be less accusatory.
> 
> Here's your posts in question:
> 
> ...


You're right, of course. I guess my general level of annoyance shone through.  One of the posts didn't respond to her directly, and the others did, but that, too, is a good point.

You're a lovely poster, and I always appreciate your complete honesty with how you have succeeded, BTW.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

V.P. said:


> Sela (and others who are 100k+ earners) I'd be very interested in your response to this question.


In all honesty, it's really hard to sort out what has what affect.

My first three books sold maybe 30 copies a month each over the first year they were published.

My fourth book sold 5,000 in its first month and the other 7 books in the overall series have gone on to earn probably $700K over 4 years. The first book had initial success (within the first 6 months) without marketing other than Amazon algorithms and a $25 ad on a book blogger's blog. The second and third (sequels) had a little more help because I had an audience who were interested in more. By the time I had my first Bookbub, I already made $100K off that book and its sequel. Then, I had a sale and then a Bookbub and that kept that series up in the ranks. I released book 3 and a set. I had another Bookbub that made the series go even higher in terms of income. It stuck in the low thousands for months. How much of that is due to the books themselves and Amazon algorithms and the two Bookbubs? I can't in truth sort them out at that point.

Since then, I have had regular Bookbubs. I started advertising on Facebook back when it was still super effective and my income that year jumped another $100k. I also started a mailing list in 2014 and got it up to 8,000 and then I went into a boxed set with several NYTs romance authors.

I would say that post 2014, Bookbub on a regular basis plus Facebook ads have amounted to about 30 - 50% of my ongoing revenues. A Bookbub is worth about $10- $20K extra in a month and lower the following month. A _successful_ new release is worth about $10K extra that month and less the following months. I've had a couple of flops that were worth hundreds instead, even with a mailing list so...

I have 4,000+ followers on Bookbub, and I have about the same on Amazon and about the same on D2D who get emails when I have a new release. Those help.

It all adds up and gets mixed in together. It's super hard to separate out and do a factor analysis! My very best month was $55K and that month, I had a new release and a free Bookbub plus I did Facebook ads for a boxed set.

That's about the best I can do.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Steve Voelker said:


> Are you telling us all how to post by saying that we can't post in a way that suggests how someone else should post?


Nope. As a community, we can decide what we will and will not accept. Did you know swearing is off-limits here? I personally feel that harassing others to post in a certain way should be, too, and I've recommended that we reject it. I never once told anyone how they should or should not post, but I do understand why some people feel the need to create false equivalencies.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

berkenstock said:


> So...a rule for the protection for successful authors.


No, a rule to not tell *anyone* how they should or shouldn't post. Did I ever say _anything_ about successful authors? 



> So now, we're calling for the silencing of anyone who doesn't agree and their delivery isn't adhering to someone else's comfort level?


Nope,_ I'm_ calling for not harassing other posters by telling them their posts have to fit some standard for how information has to be shared here.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

berkenstock said:


> So...a rule for the protection for successful authors. What will that matrix be? Number of posts? Length of time on the board? Sales numbers? How beloved they are among the other members?
> 
> I've seen a lot of uneven handed dealing on this board on a regular basis. I've seen thin-skin reactions, I've seen dogpiling. I've seen a commentor responding and getting kind and considered reactions in one thread and they get trampled and ignored in another.
> 
> ...


I agree that EVERYONE deserves to be treated well no matter how big or small you are.

Snark and innuendo are not ever called for on this kind of forum, IMO. Snarks and innuendo may feel good to the one making them, but they demean the general tenor of the place it occurs.

I try hard to be even handed and polite and maybe a bit more blunt at times if I feel something needs bluntness rather than gentleness. But we all deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt.

All of us make mistakes, are not always consistent and can forget stuff we might have posted before or not phrased it right.

I give Deb the benefit of the doubt that she was maybe impatient and wanting more of a bottom line answer about marketing costs / advertising and maybe she is just more forthright in her posts and thinking less of tone. I understand the urgent desire to understand how things work.

Tone is always such a personal thing. I guess the oft-repeated phrase is right: we should all strive to not be d*cks.  Sometimes you may want to be a d*ck but it's always good to try to be less of one if possible. 

(I can't help but read that as ducks LOL)


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

sela said:


> That's about the best I can do.


That was a great summary. Thanks again.

I'm thinking the biggest question starting out is determining if a book is worth further investment. If a cold launch (no ads, ARCs) gets legs right away, I suspect promoting the hell out of it is a good idea. If it doesn't get legs and doesn't respond to an AMS or FB and newsletter campaigns, chances are it's rather generously missing the mark. A key here may be knowing when a dud is a dud and when there's evidence of potential.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Dpock said:


> That was a great summary. Thanks again.
> 
> I'm thinking the biggest question starting out is determining if a book is worth further investment. If a cold launch (no ads, ARCs) gets legs right away, I suspect promoting the hell out of it is a good idea. If it doesn't get legs and doesn't respond to an AMS or FB and newsletter campaigns, chances are it's rather generously missing the mark. A key here may be knowing when a dud is a dud and when there's evidence of potential.


Absolutely.

Back in the day, I believe it was easier for a book to take off without any advertising if you had a great cover, blurb and had the right keywords. Amazon algorithms did the heavy lifting.

Now, you can always try a promotion free release, but I suspect you will find crickets. Advertising / promotion seem necessary now for a book to get that initial visibility, and ongoing promotion to keep it visible. That's the new reality.

Books can take off with minimal promotion and go viral but they are few and far between. If you have one of those, rejoice! The rest of us have to now put a lot of thought, elbow grease and increasingly, $$$ to get books that visibility.


----------



## Arches (Jan 3, 2016)

One the specific question of how crucial advertising is to success, I would say my experience has been that it doesn't matter nearly as much as some suggest. I don't have any idea what it takes to become a six figure author, and I doubt that I will ever find out. That's pretty thin air up there.

I do know, however, what it takes for a new author in 2017 to hit five figures in a couple of months, starting out from almost zero. I say almost zero because I did first publish a mystery series at the end of 2016. It sputtered a bit before flat-lining, although I followed all the accepted advice about publishing three books quickly and promoting them with the few advertisers that would accept an unknown author. Sure, I know how frustrating it is to try and follow best practices without getting much traction.

Then, in mid-February, I published three urban fantasies, and I spent about $300 over two months on various email list ads like Freebooksy, etc. Sales were modest until the third book in the series came out on 3/22, which coincided with the end of my ad campaign. Once the ads stopped, sales and KU page reads grew faster and faster with my only continued ads being AMS sponsored ads costing about a buck a day. Sales and page reads continued to grow until mid-May, and I earned $5K in May alone. Now my earnings seem to be on a slow downward trend. I need to get another book out, but I don't see the point of paying for ads again until I do.


----------



## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

V.P. said:


> Sela (and others who are 100k+ earners) I'd be very interested in your response to this question.


I often go without AMS or FB ads since I don't run them (I tested a couple right before Dawson's class happened, and was thinking about doing more but then the class happened and AMS ads are pretty much swamped now and too expensive imo). I don't do mailing list building either, just a link in the books and on my website.

Nothing, not even Bookbub, comes close to the boost and tail of a new release. For me, anyway. I put my efforts into writing and into the packaging of that writing. That's what has worked for me since 2014 and keeps working for me despite having had to slow way down. (again, I released a single title last year and still made over 300k, so...) My income drops after first couple months post-release but it seems to have a floor in the 8-10k a month range (at least, that's the floor it hit after 11 months without a release and only a couple Bookbubs spread out in there for ad support). For me cheap/free books bringing people in, a series that satisfies readers, and wow-factor covers still works. I've seen friends of mine replicate what I did, too, and I'm pretty sure if I had to, I could do it again right now, in this environment. Things are always changing in this biz, but things have always been changing in this biz. That's the biz. You can complain about how much harder it is now, or you can get to work. I know which of those things pays better and it ain't arguing who got how many Bookbubs on a message board 

cue everyone telling me I'm an outlier for X reasons. *eyeroll*

(note: I am an outlier in one respect at least. I write books thousands of people want to read. So... yeah. There's that. It's tougher to do than it looks, at least in my experience. Craft is still the foundation, imo.)


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## Chris Fox (Oct 3, 2014)

V.P. said:


> Sela (and others who are 100k+ earners) I'd be very interested in your response to this question.


Yes, and results were predictable. Daily ad spend doesn't give you a big spike in sales, just a trickle that keeps your ranks up high enough for discovery. When I turned off the ads, I lost the ranks. Sales slid slowly down.

I started another crop of ads, and ranks went back up. I still experiment constantly, but the trend is pretty clear.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Annie B said:


> I write books thousands of people want to read.


I'm beginning to think that may be a key to success.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I often go without AMS or FB ads since I don't run them (I tested a couple right before Dawson's class happened, and was thinking about doing more but then the class happened and AMS ads are pretty much swamped now and too expensive imo). I don't do mailing list building either, just a link in the books and on my website.
> 
> Nothing, not even Bookbub, comes close to the boost and tail of a new release. For me, anyway. I put my efforts into writing and into the packaging of that writing. That's what has worked for me since 2014 and keeps working for me despite having had to slow way down. (again, I released a single title last year and still made over 300k, so...) My income drops after first couple months post-release but it seems to have a floor in the 8-10k a month range (at least, that's the floor it hit after 11 months without a release and only a couple Bookbubs spread out in there for ad support). For me cheap/free books bringing people in, a series that satisfies readers, and wow-factor covers still works. I've seen friends of mine replicate what I did, too, and I'm pretty sure if I had to, I could do it again right now, in this environment. Things are always changing in this biz, but things have always been changing in this biz. That's the biz. You can complain about how much harder it is now, or you can get to work. I know which of those things pays better and it ain't arguing who got how many Bookbubs on a message board
> 
> ...


No eyeball rolling here. Everyone who makes $100K+ a year is an outlier. Heck, everyone who makes a living as an author is an outlier, based on the evidence I have seen.

You're right that the product is the most important element. Books have to please a lot of readers for the author to be a six figure earner on an ongoing basis. Books also have to be visible to those readers. Each genre and category has its own standards of what constitutes a popular book.

If an author does as much as possible to be professional (great genre-appropriate cover, hooky blurb, proper keywords, a decent edit) and the algos don't give a book the love it needs, advertising and promotion can help. If even advertising and promotion do not help sell a book, the problem is likely that the book just doesn't have an audience.

Best advice is to write another book and try again.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

To be perfectly clear, I do not see Deblombardi's posts in this thread as "harassing." I do see them as going too far in implying intentional misleading rather than a giving the benefit of the doubt on what I think is a difference of perception, with someone like Rosalind looking at peers like sela, Crystal, or others and thinking, "Heck, I hardly market at all compared to that!" This stuff is subjective and relative.



berkenstock said:


> Maybe if someone objects to something, how it was _said_ and how they _perceive_ it, report it to the mods and let them sort it out with the commentors.


Yes, and thank you for making this point. 

The most difficult conflicts to moderate are ones where you understand and empathize with the positions/approaches of people on multiple sides and where the issues are matters of degree. In this case, if *everyone* had dialed their contributions and reactions back about 25%, I think we would've had a productive if intense discussion, rather than a destructive one. (Easy to say and hard to implement, I know.)


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

sela said:


> Snark and innuendo


You rang? 

But seriously, I think this is a bit of a mountain being made out of a molehill. Yes, things got a little more pointed and personal than they should have. Part of it is that Ros seems to be a little rubbed raw right now, otherwise, I doubt she'd be as hurt as she is.

I'll always be in the camp that a little friction is a good thing. Honesty is rare and pushback, although at times can go too far, is better than no pushback at all. There's far more damage, generally speaking, to be done by blind acceptance than sharp questions.


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## passerby (Oct 18, 2015)

Sela, Annie, Chris - Thank you for your replies. Immensely helpful for prawns like me. I released my first book without any advertising at all (mainly because I didn't know WTH I was doing). Then I found my way to KBoards and have been on a learning curve ever since. After reading threads about stacking promos *waves at Salvador Mercer* and doing some free promos, Countdown deals, and cross-promos, I managed to achieve my early goal, which was mainly to garner some reviews and "social proof" for my books. I haven't done much in the way of promoting Books 1 and 2 lately; I'm "on hold" until I get Book 3 out a few months from now. At that point, I'm planning on doing more promos; then I'm going to take the plunge and try doing some AMS and Facebook ads.  (I don't think it would be profitable to do AMS or Facebook ads until I have at least three books in my mystery/thriller series out. Or should I wait until I have Book 4 ready to go?) After that, I'm planning on trying for a Bookbub. Haven't done that yet. 

Once again, you all have my prawny thanks!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Monique said:


> sela said:
> 
> 
> > Snark and innuendo
> ...


You made me coffee snort. Ow.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Becca Mills said:


> You made me coffee snort. Ow.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

So, in summary:

sell(written_book) {
if(written_book == good) {
profit++;
}
else {
rewrite(written_book);
}
}

while(author) {
written_book = newbook(genre);
sell(written_book);
}


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> Snark and innuendo are not ever called for on this kind of forum, IMO. Snarks and innuendo may feel good to the one making them, but they demean the general tenor of the place it occurs.


I'm sorry for my snark.

What has really annoyed me about some of the back and forth here is that literally* all 100k peeps could be accused of "misleading" authors in some way.*

All had slightly different paths to success. Rosalind has had BookBubs, but other people who've done really well haven't had 'Bubs, or not as many. There have been authors who've hit the ball out of the park lately with one novel and word of mouth despite all the changes in the 'Zon. I know authors who barely get any 'Bubs, or none at all, who sell way more than me!
*Implying that they are lying does come off badly, and it hurst newbies, too.*

There are some people here who aren't going to be able to follow Chris Fox's advice because they have a novel/series they just HAVE TO WRITE that doesn't follow his formula. They may still be successful.

There are people who don't have the time to produce a book every two months. They may still be successful.

There are people who won't get a 'Bub and/or won't advertise and they may still be successful.

To get back to the original post ... look at what people who earn 100k do and try to decide what of those things can you manage. Maybe you'd be perfectly happy trying to write a novel via Chris Fox's method, maybe it would be a fun challenge to you. Maybe you should hire a VA to do things to free you up for writing. Maybe you should advertise more.

There isn't ONE WAY to do this.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

kenbritz said:


> So, in summary:
> 
> sell(written_book) {
> if(written_book == good) {
> ...


The formula has been cracked!


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series. But, I've been on the writing treadmill - I've produced a 100,000 word novel every dang month since March. So, that's one way to do it. I wouldn't advise that for everyone, because it's not sustainable. At some point, you would rather stick toothpicks in your eyeballs than write another word, which is kinda where I'm at right now. 

Caveat - I couldn't do it this way if I were in romance or UF or cozy mysteries or any other genre where there are zillions of other writers scratching and clawing for every last bread crumb. The ONLY way I've been able to get and sustain momentum is by being on the front page of the HNR at all times and being in some pretty cool also-boughts. In romance, you're not going to be on any page of the HNR unless your book is in the top 2,000. In legal thrillers, if you're in the top 7,000, you're on the first page. In romance, you're not going to be in the also-boughts of a book ranked in the 400s unless you're a heavy-hitter. In legal thrillers, I'm in the also-boughts of Sheldon Siegel's latest book, and he's an indie heavy-hitter in the genre. So, yeah, I'm in a much better genre for visibility. 

So, in my case, in lieu of advertising, my formula is hungry-but-not-saturated genre + frequent release + pre-orders. I'm going to save my advertising firepower for when my books start to fall and I have enough books to make it really worth it. So, I do have a Plan B in the event that I can't stay on the writing treadmill, which is comforting.


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## Rose Andrews (Jun 1, 2017)

anniejocoby said:


> Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series. But, I've been on the writing treadmill - I've produced a 100,000 word novel every dang month since March. So, that's one way to do it. I wouldn't advise that for everyone, because it's not sustainable. At some point, you would rather stick toothpicks in your eyeballs than write another word, which is kinda where I'm at right now.
> 
> Caveat - I couldn't do it this way if I were in romance or UF or cozy mysteries or any other genre where there are zillions of other writers scratching and clawing for every last bread crumb. The ONLY way I've been able to get and sustain momentum is by being on the front page of the HNR at all times and being in some pretty cool also-boughts. In romance, you're not going to be on any page of the HNR unless your book is in the top 2,000. In legal thrillers, if you're in the top 7,000, you're on the first page. In romance, you're not going to be in the also-boughts of a book ranked in the 400s unless you're a heavy-hitter. In legal thrillers, I'm in the also-boughts of Sheldon Siegel's latest book, and he's an indie heavy-hitter in the genre. So, yeah, I'm in a much better genre for visibility.
> 
> *So, in my case, in lieu of advertising, my formula is hungry-but-not-saturated genre + frequent release + pre-orders. I'm going to save my advertising firepower for when my books start to fall and I have enough books to make it really worth it.* So, I do have a Plan B in the event that I can't stay on the writing treadmill, which is comforting.


Yikes. I feel you, Annie. This is my plan exactly minus the pre-orders. Also on the writing treadmill here except your books are much longer. Can I ask what you strive for your daily average to be? I write in a crowded genre (historical romance) and have found the only way to keep a tail is to release regularly. My books are drowning but still getting reads at least. I was saddened to see my latest release of just a couple weeks ago already disappear into oblivion. Sigh. Ads and promos just aren't my thing and I've never found much luck with them anyway. The treadmill has to hit at some point, so maybe when I have like 30 books? Anyway, I'm about to start releasing in a second genre that's a bit less crowded but it seems like every genre is flooded these days.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> I'm sorry for my snark.
> 
> What has really annoyed me about some of the back and forth here is that literally* all 100k peeps could be accused of "misleading" authors in some way.*
> 
> ...


I would say snark directed at a particular person should be off limits. Snark against the world in general or some abstract thing with no feelings? Fine with me.

There are many routes to success. There is no one path. There is no formula that works every time. If there was, we'd all be successes if we only implemented the formula.


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

anniejocoby said:


> Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series. But, I've been on the writing treadmill - I've produced a 100,000 word novel every dang month since March. So, that's one way to do it. I wouldn't advise that for everyone, because it's not sustainable. At some point, you would rather stick toothpicks in your eyeballs than write another word, which is kinda where I'm at right now.
> 
> Caveat - I couldn't do it this way if I were in romance or UF or cozy mysteries or any other genre where there are zillions of other writers scratching and clawing for every last bread crumb. The ONLY way I've been able to get and sustain momentum is by being on the front page of the HNR at all times and being in some pretty cool also-boughts. In romance, you're not going to be on any page of the HNR unless your book is in the top 2,000. In legal thrillers, if you're in the top 7,000, you're on the first page. In romance, you're not going to be in the also-boughts of a book ranked in the 400s unless you're a heavy-hitter. In legal thrillers, I'm in the also-boughts of Sheldon Siegel's latest book, and he's an indie heavy-hitter in the genre. So, yeah, I'm in a much better genre for visibility.
> 
> So, in my case, in lieu of advertising, my formula is hungry-but-not-saturated genre + frequent release + pre-orders. I'm going to save my advertising firepower for when my books start to fall and I have enough books to make it really worth it. So, I do have a Plan B in the event that I can't stay on the writing treadmill, which is comforting.


I knew you'd been productive in rebooting your career, but I didn't know you'd been *that* productive. Congratulations, Annie, it's really awesome to see your recent success!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

anniejocoby said:


> Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series.


Non-sequitur: your new covers look great, particularly in thumbnail size.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Rosie A. said:


> Yikes. I feel you, Annie. This is my plan exactly minus the pre-orders. Also on the writing treadmill here except your books are much longer. Can I ask what you strive for your daily average to be? I write in a crowded genre (historical romance) and have found the only way to keep a tail is to release regularly. My books are drowning but still getting reads at least. I was saddened to see my latest release of just a couple weeks ago already disappear into oblivion. Sigh. Ads and promos just aren't my thing and I've never found much luck with them anyway. The treadmill has to hit at some point, so maybe when I have like 30 books? Anyway, I'm about to start releasing in a second genre that's a bit less crowded but it seems like every genre is flooded these days.


Hang in there! When I'm writing, I tend to binge-write, ha ha. Like my last book I pretty much wrote in a little over two weeks - 8,000 words minimum per day. Towards the end, I was getting like 15,000 words per day. It's not so bad when you a) use Brain.fm to keep you focused and b) do writing sprints. I use FocusWatch, which means that I write in 25 minute increments.

BTW, I do have 30 books now, LOL. The only ones that sell right now, though, are my legal thrillers. I get *some* sales from my backlist, but I've let the backlist die for now. I'll revive it in the future, but I want to give the promo for the backlist a rest for awhile. I figure if I wait a whole year from the last time I promoted to promote it again, it will get better results from the ad sites.


Craig Andrews said:


> I knew you'd been productive in rebooting your career, but I didn't know you'd been *that* productive. Congratulations, Annie, it's really awesome to see your recent success!


Thanks for the kind words!!!!


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Aw, thanks! It took Amazon over a week to finally update them, but I think it's worth it! I feel that they're much more genre-appropriate than the other ones were. Thanks for noticing!!!!!


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

anniejocoby said:


> Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series. But, I've been on the writing treadmill - I've produced a 100,000 word novel every dang month since March. So, that's one way to do it. I wouldn't advise that for everyone, because it's not sustainable. *At some point, you would rather stick toothpicks in your eyeballs than write another word*, which is kinda where I'm at right now.


The part I bolded up there, cracked me up. Written like a thriller writer. Props.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Alan Petersen said:


> The part I bolded up there, cracked me up. Written like a thriller writer. Props.


LOL, thanks Alan! Glad I could entertain! &#128512;


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Anniejacoby and a few others have posted their experience that is the type of thing that in the last few weeks prior had hit home to me that no matter how successful an author might get at some point, it's not always sustainable.

Since purchasing KDSpy a few weeks back, I've been checking out many authors' profiles and it's made me realize two things: You have to either ...

1) Write books that hit the right emotional triggers for 'word of mouth' advertising to keep those books selling for years. These books will tend to stay sticky longer with less marketing/advertising constantly being pumped into them. You still have to do some promotion to continue to gain new readers and keep the book visible if it starts sliding but not as much due to the 'word of mouth' this type of book normally gets ... or you can write another book that repeats the emotional response of your market that will lead to follow-through sales of past books.

OR ...

2) Write a TON of books with each having at least some sales every day. Michael Anderle's original premise that 20 books making $7.50 each = $50k per year. Given this accounting, to reach $100k, you'd either have to double the amount of books (40) or have those 20 books each making royalties of $15/per day. With this method, if the books' rankings start to slide, you'd then have to either spend time/money on marketing them to keep them afloat, and/or keep writing new books fast and consistently to add to your inventory and keep visibility.

By viewing the stats all on one page (with KDSpy) per each author, I could easily see who is staying sticky and having 'passive residual income' with fewer books because most of them (even those from years past) were ranking in the 4-digits still, compared to those who have a ton of books yet only their latest in the series are ranking and producing most of the sales (their backlist are ranking in the upper 5-digits to lower 6-digits).

I then asked myself ... which author do I want to be? Since I can't spit out a book a month, and I don't want to keep spinning my wheels trying to revive my backlist with constant advertising (plus, if it continually slides back down and can't stay sticky, then it's time to let go of that book because it just ain't grabbing readers enough to recommend it), I decided I have to then write those 'emotionally' responsive books that get 'word of mouth' helping it to stay alive.

Sela's post here says to me that her 4th book must've had that 'emotional' trigger that sent that book to skyrocket. Her first year with 3 books she sold $5.6k. Her second year with 4 books, her 4th book alone sold $97k while her 3 previous books in that same series sold $9k that year.

There has to be a reason that Book 4 sold in those quantities and the 3 previous books didn't.

Sela, did you make your readers cry in Book 4 (I use 'cry' as the emotional trigger because you're writing romance. If you were writing horror, I'd say 'scared them to death')? If you didn't make it a tearjerker, what do you feel you did differently that set it apart from the 3 previous books you wrote?

Anyway, Sela's stats is quantifiable data that those in the 'erotic romance' genre (the genre she wrote in) can gauge by. Unfortunately, if you don't know what Sela's pen name is, you can't buy/read her books to study her, but you can go through that genre's top sellers list and find others to study and emulate with your own versions (as Sela mentions that's what she did herself). I would recommend purchasing KDSpy because without it, it's time consuming to go through each book to view their ranking. One click and all that appears on a single page that's easy to read (sort it by 'Monthly Rev.' or 'Ranking' to view in sequence how their backlist is doing too).

Thank you, Sela, for sharing your stats and what you did. That's the kind of info that helps authors who want to achieve similar success as you.

But this same technique can be used for all other genres as well, for those of us who don't write erotic romance.

Also, thank you, Anniejacoby and others who shared about once being successful but then the tide turning on your careers, for your amazingly honest shares because that clinched it for me on making changes to my direction.

Originally, I was following Michael Anderle's '20 books to 50k' mindset, but I came to realize ... that's just not enough. One has to make sure to keep those books selling year after year. But if the content is lacking 'emotional' reader's response that would keep it going, more books isn't going to build a longterm sustainable income because some backlist books will fall into oblivion at the same time. Reaching $100k that way would take years or may never happen.

At my age, I don't have that many years ahead to do #2 (and I'm not talking bowel movement here). And as Anniejacoby wrote (and what Alan Petersen bolded), you get burnt out at some point. So for me, #1 is the viable choice out of the two that makes the most sense to shoot for. I'm not in this for the artistic creation or prestigious awards value, I'm in this strictly for the income.

Anyway, if there's any of you out there like me, you need to ask yourself ... which of the two methods above is most practical and doable for you with trying to achieve a sustainable income in this business?

With some of you younger folks, you have more time to enjoy your fruits of labor even if it happens 10/15/20 years down the line. Folks my age, don't. We have to get those fruits to ripen earlier because in 10-15 years we may not be alive, or at least our declining health will hinder our being able to enjoy fully those fruits.

Or I could be totally wrong in my assessments, and maybe we all just gotta put a link to a giveaway for an expensive eReader or gift card at the back of our books and get our readers to share/recommend our books that way! lol

Anyway, thanks to all those who have shared their experience (especially quantifiable stats), and good luck to everyone with finding the way that works for you.


----------



## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

wheart said:


> Anniejacoby and a few others have posted their experience that is the type of thing that in the last few weeks prior had hit home to me that no matter how successful an author might get at some point, it's not always sustainable.
> 
> Since purchasing KDSpy a few weeks back, I've been checking out many authors' profiles and it's made me realize two things: You have to either ...
> 
> ...


I can't argue with this. It's definitely better to write evergreen books. However, I don't know how realistic it is to produce and expect the book to stay on top, no matter how resonant it is. Most books need periodic marketing to keep them up.

I will say one thing, though - if you write the "right" book that hits all the feels, promotions definitely work better. Especially if it's a first in series. I have two series that have a loss leader that resonates with readers. When I promote them, I get a decent ROI. The other three series, not so much. It is what it is, I guess.

It's best not to rely on WOM, though. The best combo is a resonant book + periodic promos. That combo will bring you the chance of success. &#128512;


----------



## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Now do it in Fortran.


Haha NO!


----------



## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Annie B said:


> I often go without AMS or FB ads since I don't run them (I tested a couple right before Dawson's class happened, and was thinking about doing more but then the class happened and AMS ads are pretty much swamped now and too expensive imo). I don't do mailing list building either, just a link in the books and on my website.
> 
> Nothing, not even Bookbub, comes close to the boost and tail of a new release. For me, anyway. I put my efforts into writing and into the packaging of that writing. That's what has worked for me since 2014 and keeps working for me despite having had to slow way down. (again, I released a single title last year and still made over 300k, so...) My income drops after first couple months post-release but it seems to have a floor in the 8-10k a month range (at least, that's the floor it hit after 11 months without a release and only a couple Bookbubs spread out in there for ad support). For me cheap/free books bringing people in, a series that satisfies readers, and wow-factor covers still works. I've seen friends of mine replicate what I did, too, and I'm pretty sure if I had to, I could do it again right now, in this environment. Things are always changing in this biz, but things have always been changing in this biz. That's the biz. You can complain about how much harder it is now, or you can get to work. I know which of those things pays better and it ain't arguing who got how many Bookbubs on a message board
> 
> ...


If it helps I don't think you're an outlier, other than the fact that you get more sales than the average author. Your basic strategy is something most writers who've been around a while know. Write often so you're always riding the tail of a new release and make sure your newest release is good enough to make them want to read your back list. Sometimes it really is that simple. Not everyone will make 100k, but chances are good they'll make some money if they just do this.


----------



## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

IMHO, it's good to question people, whether they are anonymous newbies or beleved mentors. We shouldn't be rude about it, but we should do it. People don't have to be intentionally deceptive to be handing out wrong information or unclear information.

Skepticism is always healthy.

The advertising vs organic sales stuff always makes people testy because it implies books that don't take off organically are somehow not good enough. Naturally, that upsets those writers. I'm sure no one means to say "my books are just better than yours," but it's easy to take that message.



NeedWant said:


> Of course!
> 
> And yeah, we can only speculate about what might have been if some things happened differently. I do think we agree more than not, though!
> 
> ...





Perry Constantine said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but back in the early days of Bookbub, Amazon didn't divide free and paid books. So if your free book got a crapload of downloads from a Bookbub, then once you went to paid, your high ranking was the same.


Yes. Strategies that worked five years ago dont work know. The algos have changed.

Two years ago, FB ads were basically instant money. Now, it's hard to make a profit without a long series. Five years ago, setting a book free was all it took to jump start things. If you also had a blogger pick you up? Count your dollar signs now.

In all cases, you need a good book. But the way you come across visibility changes. BookBub is already getting a reputation for being less effective. I'm not sure what the next it thing will be.

Honestly, I have no idea how anyone can have steady sales without ads anymore. I have a hard time believing it, though I don't think anyone is lying about their numbers. It's just hard to fathom. All the (romance) authors I know are struggling to keep their backlists afloat. It hits "high quality" authors and more fast and trendy authors, though not to the same degree. Books don't stick as long. Non release months are uglier than they used to be.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

> Since purchasing KDSpy a few weeks back, I've been checking out many authors' profiles and it's made me realize two things: You have to either ...
> 
> 1) Write books that hit the right emotional triggers for 'word of mouth' advertising to keep those books selling for years. These books will tend to stay sticky longer with less marketing/advertising constantly being pumped into them. You still have to do some promotion to continue to gain new readers and keep the book visible if it starts sliding but not as much due to the 'word of mouth' this type of book normally gets ... or you can write another book that repeats the emotional response of your market that will lead to follow-through sales of past books.
> 
> ...


I would add only that KDSpy is of limited use for authors whose incomes are coming from more than Amazon. About half of mine is in Audible, for instance.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> I can't argue with this. It's definitely better to write evergreen books. However, I don't know how realistic it is to produce and expect the book to stay on top, no matter how resonant it is. Most books need periodic marketing to keep them up.
> 
> I will say one thing, though - if you write the "right" book that hits all the feels, promotions definitely work better. Especially if it's a first in series. I have two series that have a loss leader that resonates with readers. When I promote them, I get a decent ROI. The other three series, not so much. It is what it is, I guess.
> 
> It's best not to rely on WOM, though. The best combo is a resonant book + periodic promos. That combo will bring you the chance of success. &#128512;


Yup, I totally get what you're saying about still needing to market/promote.

I guess for me, I'm looking back at my own history. In 2012 when I started publishing, I wrote romance/romantic suspense. The only book that shot up the charts was one that I shed tears while writing an emotional scene. It got to a low 3-digit ranking on Amazon. I attribute it to a romance group on Goodreads that reviewed it and by 'word of mouth' they shared it with others and then Amazon algos took over, I assume. I didn't do any paid advertising on that book when it took off.

Unfortunately, I was stupid in the sense that I had readers asking me to write a series with the other characters they came to love, but back then, I wanted to write the other stories that I had in my head rather than continue with the same characters' storyline.

Big mistake. I didn't listen to what my fans were wanting. I blew it.

My other books did okay, sold enough to pay some bills. I garnered fans, but then I decided to test out a few other genres and my mistake there was writing in-between two age groups (YA and adults) and it threw readers off. I thoroughly enjoyed writing these books though because it took my imagination to another dimension, lol.

Today I'm writing cozy mystery, and even though I get a majority of 4 & 5-star reviews with those saying they love the series and want more, I'm not getting enough readers recommending them to get them higher on the ranks.

I found AMS ads the best and most steady with helping keep my books visible, and I'm also on some well-known authors 'Also boughts'. But I'm obviously not hitting the right emotional response from readers to get them to recommend my books more.

I do agree that one has to keep promoting to stay visible; no doubts about that, but I'm trying to work smarter rather than harder, as the cliche goes. To me, that's better done within the book's content than with massive advertising dollars. Granted, I'm still not discounting advertising, I'm just trying to figure out a way to not continually be that hamster on the wheel, exhausting myself with writing all these books, yet still going nowhere fast, lol.

Thus, I came to the conclusion that I'm going to have to study (by reading) the authors I want to emulate and do what Sela did and write my own versions, yet try to hit the emotional triggers that those authors are hitting.

I might fail, but I feel it's better to try this out at least, to see what happens.

Thanks for your input, Annie!


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

wheart said:


> I had readers asking me to write a series with the other characters they came to love, but back then, I wanted to write the other stories that I had in my head rather than continue with the same characters' storyline.
> 
> Big mistake.


Fans are still a figment of my imagination but with all this "series" talk I'm getting the impression it's the way to. In romance (I haven't read a series yet), does a series mean using the same locale with secondary characters from the first in the series (as one option)?


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

GeneDoucette said:


> I would add only that KDSpy is of limited use for authors whose incomes are coming from more than Amazon. About half of mine is in Audible, for instance.


Yes, unfortunately, that is a downside, but it can still give enough of a picture of certain authors that people might want to emulate for their study, since Amazon ranking is what most people gauge by if they're publishing on Amazon. I've found it a valuable tool.



Dpock said:


> Fans are still a figment of my imagination but with all this "series" talk I'm getting the impression it's the way to. In romance (I haven't read a series yet), does a series mean using the same locale with secondary characters from the first in the series (as one option)?


You can either use the same locale with secondary characters or have them move elsewhere, lol, that's up to you. I don't think locale is as important, but if your fans are shouting out to want a book about a secondary character, you better write about that character. Don't screw up like I did.

I've certainly learned my lesson on that. I've found series is the way to go for me. Some authors are awesome enough to make standalone books work for them, but for me, I'm only going to endeavor in series now.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

The thing is, it doesn't matter what any of you think about what was said. It only matters what Rosalind thinks. 

I, personally, think a woman with a full plate took time out of her overwhelming schedule to offer up information in an attempt to help others when SHE IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO EVER DO SO. Then she was accused of lying by omission and harming indies.

Calling someone's integrity into question is never a good idea unless you have proof.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

wheart said:


> Since purchasing KDSpy a few weeks back, I've been checking out many authors' profiles and it's made me realize two things: You have to either ...
> 
> 1) Write books that hit the right emotional triggers for 'word of mouth' advertising to keep those books selling for years. These books will tend to stay sticky longer with less marketing/advertising constantly being pumped into them. You still have to do some promotion to continue to gain new readers and keep the book visible if it starts sliding but not as much due to the 'word of mouth' this type of book normally gets ... or you can write another book that repeats the emotional response of your market that will lead to follow-through sales of past books.
> 
> ...


I had a character all my readers hated who got between the couple. I had two breakups caused by the hated character. The couple had a very awkward social connection that worked against them getting together and which they both had to overcome. They made a commitment to each other at the end of the book.

The book was released in 2013 and the series still earns six figures but I also got three Bookbubs for it in 2016. I'm sorry that I don't give out my pen name for people to study what I did. Honestly, I've tried to go as far under the radar as possible with my pen name to avoid any kind of controversy. So I keep it private, but I do try to share as much data as I can so people can see my earnings and know I'm not blowing smoke. 

Or at least, not too much.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

sela said:


> I had a character all my readers hated who got between the couple. I had two breakups caused by the hated character. The couple had a very awkward social connection that worked against them getting together and which they both had to overcome. They made a commitment to each other at the end of the book.
> 
> The book was released in 2013 and the series still earns six figures but I also got three Bookbubs for it in 2016.


LOL, there went my 'cry' theory for romance, but I guess 'anger' and 'hate' might do the trick as well  (but I still bet your fans cried when the HEA happened at the end , so I'm bringing back the 'cry' theory to some extent )



sela said:


> I'm sorry that I don't give out my pen name for people to study what I did. Honestly, I've tried to go as far under the radar as possible with my pen name to avoid any kind of controversy. So I keep it private, but I do try to share as much data as I can so people can see my earnings and know I'm not blowing smoke.
> 
> Or at least, not too much.


You don't need to apologize about that. Totally understandable. Thanks so much for answering my question and for sharing the way you do.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

wheart said:


> LOL, there went my 'cry' theory for romance, but I guess 'anger' and 'hate' might do the trick as well  (but I still bet your fans cried when the HEA happened at the end , so I'm bringing back the 'cry' theory to some extent )
> 
> You don't need to apologize about that. Totally understandable. Thanks so much for answering my question and for sharing the way you do.


I got the nicest compliment once from an oncology nurse who read my book to her chemo patient and got her hooked. That kind of think makes it all worthwhile.

Well, that's a lie. The money makes it worthwhile but that kind of thing makes you feel like your work can make people happy and that's a good thing.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

sela said:


> I got the nicest compliment once from an oncology nurse who read my book to her chemo patient and got her hooked. That kind of think makes it all worthwhile.
> 
> Well, that's a lie. The money makes it worthwhile but that kind of thing makes you feel like your work can make people happy and that's a good thing.


LOL, yup, the money sure doesn't hurt. But, yes, those kinds of reviews most certainly are wonderful to hear; warming the heart, making one's writing career feel so worthwhile, that's for sure. And also a thing to make one proud


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Dpock said:


> Fans are still a figment of my imagination but with all this "series" talk I'm getting the impression it's the way to. In romance (I haven't read a series yet), does a series mean using the same locale with secondary characters from the first in the series (as one option)?


My readers prefer a single couple followed over several books. I'll be writing book 9 in July/Aug. But others write a series of books connected in locale/situation of some kind with different couples. Such as a family of brothers who each have a book and their own romance.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

kenbritz said:


> So, in summary:
> 
> sell(written_book) {
> if(written_book == good) {
> ...


I showed this to my father (the best programmer I know) and he laughed his arse off!


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

sela said:


> My readers prefer a single couple followed over several books. I'll be writing book 9 in July/Aug. But others write a series of books connected in locale/situation of some kind with different couples. Such as a family of brothers who each have a book and their own romance.


Dpock, I'm glad Sela chimed in because in my one-track mind to answer your question on the locale of the secondary characters, I didn't even think to give you all the possibilities of varying types of series. Sorry about that.

I do want to add (and should have mentioned) that locale would be important if it's crucial to the story, like New Zealand is for Rosalind's series, and Montana/Wyoming/etc. for western type romances. So locale is important if it's part of the draw to the story/series as much as the characters; otherwise, I've had my characters fly out to other parts of the world as well


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

Chris Fox said:


> One of the chief differences between people who do this full time and people who do not is that we've developed consistent systems for both marketing and production. Are there exceptions to that? Of course. But as in all things, if you look at enough data points you will spot trends. Most authors making a good living have a steady production schedule, and produce well-honed books in the same genre to build momentum.
> 
> Even Annie, who breaks many of the norms for others of us doing this 6 figure thing, will tell you how quickly her income drops if she isn't putting out new releases.


I have to agree with this. The whole post, really. I make high six figures and have been around for 5+ years. I didn't make that much in year one, but I was well over six figures in year two. I quit my day job at the end of year 1 before I was making much money because the job I had, which allowed me to write, got phased out and the replacement job they offered me sounded like a long, slow death.

You just do you, ya know. Forget everyone. This is why I stopped going to "things" this year. Everyone wants me to go to their "thing". And I'm sure I pissed off a lot of people by telling them no thanks. But this year is my best ever (probably gonna hit 7 figures - probably gonna get 6 books on the USA). And the reason my income went up to "amazing" after being steadily "great" is because I stayed home and worked.

I work at least 12 hours a day. I do very little marketing but that's only because I have a new system these days. I did A LOT more in years 3 and 4. ($110K in FB ads in 2015 and $60K in 2016 ) But I like my work, so I work harder than most. I like my fans, I like my stories, I like pretty much everything about this job. I can do 9,000 words in a day if I have to but I prefer 3K a day. I do 3K a day most days and still put out 6 books a year. (that's every two months, if you're not good at math). I do about 3 Bookbubs a year. I run FB ads for books I know will make a list, but I've never run Amazon ads. Ever. I am not in KU and have never seriously been in KU. i.e. All In. I release at full price. I don't run more than 2 sales a year (and usually wait until the book is a year old), and I don't write to market.

If you know who I am you might disagree with me when I say I don't write to market. But I don't. I practically made this market I'm in now and I don't think that's the same thing. People write to my market, not the other way around. I'm their Amazon ad keyword. (I see you under my also-boughts.  )

HOWEVER - I published my first three books in 2012. Times were different, sure. But I'm one of the few left from that era. My staying power comes from this list here:

(1) Write good books people want to read (i.e. In a genre with voracious readers. Not a huge genre, but one that has voracious readers. More readers = more sales.)
(2) Release regularly (you get to define this)
(3) Find your fans
(3) Do 1-3 again, and again, and again

And of course you have to have talent. Not a lot. But a little goes a long way. So never stop learning your craft.

One thing I will caution you on: If your success mostly relies on advertising and marketing you're gonna work a lot harder, and spend a lot more money on your business, than if it was mostly based on fans. Your GOAL should always be FIND READERS ORGANICALLY. Of course we all want that. I want that. And after five+ years and twelve bestsellers I'm JUST getting there. But that was my goal from day one so I planned all the years that came before this one with that goal in mind. Of course you have to advertise in the beginning. But you should be hoping that your books will be enough "one day". I still advertise, but I don't do it nearly as much as I did. This last book got no budget because in three weeks I'm buying a house and I didn't want my bank to look too close at my Business AmEx payment. 

Write. Good. Books. And find your fans. If you can't find your fans and you're relying on fans finding you, well, good f-ing luck with that.  That's the Bookbub strategy. And yes, I typically get a Bookbub when I want one, but the reason I only run 2-3 a year is because I only need to find so many new fans. I have a lot already. And I got them one book at a time. Just like you need to.

I don't do any multi-author anything. I don't do multi-author boxsets. I don't do anthologies (I did one, but it was special). And I don't do newsletter sign-up thingys. I don't get my "famous" friends to blurb my book. I haven't sold a single book to a foreign market. I don't sell on Google Play because they pissed me off in 2015. I don't get any promo from Amazon. Ever. Or iBooks, or KOBO. I sometimes do get Nook promos when I remember to ask for them. I don't track anything either. I hate numbers. So f-that. I have better things to do. Like write books.

GOOD BOOKS make you a bestseller. Or whatever you want to call it. I don't think Rosalind has made any lists but she's still a high-ranking author on Amazon. Bookbub can only get you eyeballs. What happens after that is all YOU.

Once you get here, to this point in your career where I am now, GROW. And by that I don't mean write more books. That's a given. You WILL write more books to stay successful because the new release is what sustains a career. When I say grow, I mean take more risks. Try something new. Do things different. STAND OUT. I am the point now where I can write really weird books and no, they don't make a list. But I sell them better than most. And that, in and of itself, is a huge achievement in this business. Plus it's fun to write different stuff that is totally "off-market".

I can't even begin to explain the opportunities that came at me this year because I made a plan to GROW in 2017 and I stayed home and focused on the "Next Step." When you're at the "Right Place" the "Right Time" comes knocking. All you gotta do is open the door. (And write more books) 

ALSO - one more thing. About the money. Yes, I like the money. I don't worry about it anymore and that's a nice change because I was a dirt-poor single mom for so long. But it's not always about the money. It's about the relationships you build. It's about the PEOPLE. And be very choosy who you align with in this business. Choose good ones. And reevaluate your decisions regularly because sometimes good friends do stupid things.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

sela said:


> My readers prefer a single couple followed over several books. I'll be writing book 9 in July/Aug. But others write a series of books connected in locale/situation of some kind with different couples. Such as a family of brothers who each have a book and their own romance.


This may not be the right thread to talk about this, and I'm not a romance reader so I don't know if this kind of tactic is common in romance series, but the curious cat in me would like to hear more about how a romance series with the same couple is constructed across nine books (and I assume counting).


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

PeanutButterCracker wins. I second all that.


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## Lefty (Apr 7, 2011)

PBC rules. Good for you!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> This may not be the right thread to talk about this, and I'm not a romance reader so I don't know if this kind of tactic is common in romance series, but the curious cat in me would like to hear more about how a romance series with the same couple is constructed across nine books (and I assume counting).


Book 1 - meet, overcome emotional and social obstacles to relationship. Commit to relationship.
Book 2 - relationship deepens, but stuff comes up from the past to haunt them both. They overcome and become engaged.
Book 3 - relationship deepens, they start a new life together, sh*t happens, and they deal with it. Get married.
Book 4 - 7 - various life crises happen and they have to overcome them. Job related, family issues, friends. Pregnancy. Baby. Postpartum issues. An international move. A personal crisis. Family health crises. External and internal conflicts. Real life, in other words but it's like they get every possible life complication you could imagine. 
Book 8 will try to wrap up the external conflict that caused internal conflict in book 7.

ETA: none of my books has a cliffhanger end. They all end on a positive note, with the main book crisis having been solved and an epilogue that looks to the near future at how the couple is doing. I use that epilogue as an event in the next book.

When a romance reader likes a couple, they want to keep reading them. You have to keep thinking up stuff to happen that isn't too much of a shark jumping exercise. I was afraid I jumped the shark in book 6 but people still buy book 7 and are eager to buy book 8 so...


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> (1) Write good books people want to read (i.e. In a genre with voracious readers. Not a huge genre, but one that has voracious readers. More readers = more sales.)
> (2) Release regularly (you get to define this)
> (3) Find your fans
> (3) Do 1-3 again, and again, and again


(1) If you can write a good book people want to read, you will. Check.
(2) You will also, without much problem, release regularly. Check.
(3) Find fans? Ahhh, herein lies the rub. Not so easy, this one. A little more to it than casting a net out there and hauling it back in to find it filled with eager fans.

This is where Bookbub comes in. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if a writer lands between 3-6 Bookbubs per year, that will translate into thousands and thousands of books sold. Bookbub effectively does all the heavy lifting to achieve step 3. These periodic stratospheric sales boosts will give the book legs and allow the writer to "Do 1-3 again, and again, and again". Without Bookbub, performing only steps 1 and 2 will likely leave most writers buried in the 300,000s of Amazon rankings, and step 3 will be pretty much out of reach.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

sela said:


> Book 1 - meet, overcome emotional and social obstacles to relationship. Commit to relationship.
> Book 2 - relationship deepens, but stuff comes up from the past to haunt them both. They overcome and become engaged.
> Book 3 - relationship deepens, they start a new life together, sh*t happens, and they deal with it. Get married.
> Book 4 - 7 - various life crises happen and they have to overcome them. Job related, family issues, friends. Pregnancy. Baby. Postpartum issues. An international move. A personal crisis. Family health crises. External and internal conflicts. Real life, in other words but it's like they get every possible life complication you could imagine.
> ...


Cool, thanks for the insight!


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

"Find fans" is not easy if the writer is new. The market has changed, drastically. KU wasn't even around a few years ago and the pond was much smaller. Those with fanbases today, those who started years ago (myself included), don't feel the change as much. We write books, we sell books, we have a ready-made audience and that word-of-mouth engine is already up and running for us. These days, new authors can't just "find fans" without advertising. The days of dropping a book on Amazon and having it sell like hotcakes (without a fanbase) are gone (yes, of course there are exceptions). It's very easy for pros to come in and say "Write good books" "find fans" but that doesn't help the new writers who HAVE written good books, but are buried by the thousands and thousands of ebooks released on Amazon each day. 2017 is not 2012 and it's frankly foolish to compare the career of an author who started then to the career of an author who started this year and claim you can simply do the same things as that seasoned author to succeed. 

BUT, new authors can succeed. Of course they can. And yes, they do need to "find their fans" but in 2017 that takes time and marketing bucks. The more marketing bucks you have, the less time you'll generally need to building that fanbase. A BookBub, for example, could shave six months off your sales target.

There are way too many other factors involved in each author's success story. Everyone succeeds differently and everyone has a different measurement of success. Authors must discover what works for them and their books. That takes trial and error, it takes time.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

wheart said:


> Originally, I was following Michael Anderle's '20 books to 50k' mindset, but I came to realize ... that's just not enough. One has to make sure to keep those books selling year after year. But if the content is lacking 'emotional' reader's response that would keep it going, more books isn't going to build a longterm sustainable income because some backlist books will fall into oblivion at the same time. Reaching $100k that way would take years or may never happen.


I'm still catching up on this thread and I haven't read all the posts, but this comment struck me. Writing a ton of books and throwing them on Amazon might work for the short-term but if you want long term sales years from now, that takes word-of-mouth marketing and you only get word-of-mouth marketing from long-term sustained sales brought about by vocal fans. Vocal fans are those who rave about your books and pass their amazing reading experience on to their friends etc etc Give your fans what they want, give them those emotional triggers, give them a wild ride, give them a smooth reading experience *for the sake of all things wordy, format and edit correctly!*. Create a damn good book with everything in its favor and that damn good book will do more for you in years to come than a book that is a flash in the pan that soon burns out.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The thing is, it doesn't matter what any of you think about what was said. It only matters what Rosalind thinks.
> 
> I, personally, think a woman with a full plate took time out of her overwhelming schedule to offer up information in an attempt to help others when SHE IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO EVER DO SO. Then she was accused of lying by omission and harming indies.
> 
> Calling someone's integrity into question is never a good idea unless you have proof.


With you, here, Jana.

I've been around this forum a long time, and I've seen this happen too many times, IMHO.

Experienced, generous people like Rosalind and others (my friend Elle Casey comes to mind) share their journey and are basically shellacked. They then wonder why on earth they should put up with this, and the end result is always the same--they leave, because frankly--they have things to do.

And we are always left over with the folks who righteously say, "but we need to shake things up and question and, etcetera," while the voices of experience, the ones I'm interested in hearing from, have left the building.

I'm really not a religious person at all, just well educated in the Biblical tradition. This verse comes to mind: 
Matthew 7:6.

Cheers, all.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

D-C said:


> 2017 is not 2012 and it's frankly foolish to compare the career of an author who started then to the career of an author who started this year and claim you can simply do the same things as that seasoned author to succeed.


This is very true, and I'd love to hear from some of the more recent successes to see what was different about their path to six figures a year. The basics will be much the same for everyone:



> (1) Write good books people want to read (i.e. In a genre with voracious readers. Not a huge genre, but one that has voracious readers. More readers = more sales.)
> (2) Release regularly (you get to define this)
> (3) Find your fans
> (3) Do 1-3 again, and again, and again


...but the methods that worked in 2012 will be different from what worked in 2015, and will be different again in 2017. For anyone starting out, what's working NOW is the most important point. And how much it will cost (and the answer seems to be: a whole heap of money).


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> I practically made this market I'm in now and I don't think that's the same thing. People write to my market, not the other way around. I'm their Amazon ad keyword. (I see you under my also-boughts.  )


You single-handedly created a market for your kind of book in the romance genre?



> (1) Write good books people want to read (i.e. In a genre with voracious readers. Not a huge genre, but one that has voracious readers. More readers = more sales.)
> (2) Release regularly (you get to define this)
> *(3) Find your fans*
> (3) Do 1-3 again, and again, and again


This business changes every year, and visibility is getting harder and harder to get without spending a lot on advertising. Frequent releases might ease it a bit, but you still have to get people to notice your books. You yourself admit to spending mega bucks on advertising and you started publishing when gaining traction was a lot easier than it is now. I know I didn't start making money on my books until I did a free promo on the first one. And now I have continuous AMS ads running to keep that income. (I release a lot less than I want to. I'm trying to up my production this year, though.)

I love reading success stories like yours. They're awesome. But I also know that the self-publishing landscape has changed a lot since a lot of successful authors got their start. Saying "I'm sure I can replicate this success today" is easy to say when you don't have to. Do I think people can still become successful starting today? Of course, but I also think it's going to be a lot harder than it was two, three, four, five, etc, years ago.

(BTW, your profile says you're male! Not sure if that was intentional or not!)


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is very true, and I'd love to hear from some of the more recent successes to see what was different about their path to six figures a year. The basics will be much the same for everyone:
> 
> ...but the methods that worked in 2012 will be different from what worked in 2015, and will be different again in 2017. For anyone starting out, what's working NOW is the most important point. And how much it will cost (and the answer seems to be: a whole heap of money).


All that's changed is that tricky "find your fans" It used to be easier. In the early days Amazon would do a lot of the heavy lifting for an author. Free was in the same charts as paid. Exposure could shoot you up the charts and have you sit there for weeks. Those sales tails were long (a bit like the summers of our youth  ). Now the tails sometimes last days and the 30-60-90 days cliffs are more like two weeks, three weeks etc. The churn in KU is HUGE. Not so much wide, but to be wide and successful takes a backlist on a long-term commitment to make wide work. The simple fact of the matter is: find your fans in 2017 takes all of that list AND marketing $$$ (if you're a new author).


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

People told me in 2014 how much harder it was to break out than in 2010 or 2011 or 2012 etc. I did it anyway by studying the people who were selling well.  Nobody rests on their laurels who is making consistently 6 figures a year. They are still using methods that work in the here and now even if they started in 2012.  People have been saying "it's so much harder now because of X" every year I've been in this business.

It's never going to get easier, people. Ever. So...


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> It's never going to get easier, people. Ever. So...


Very true. It's getting harder and harder. Will that stop me from trying? Nope. It just means that I'll have to work a lot harder to get to where I want to be.


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## D-C (Jan 13, 2014)

Annie B said:


> People told me in 2014 how much harder it was to break out than in 2010 or 2011 or 2012 etc. I did it anyway by studying the people who were selling well. Nobody rests on their laurels who is making consistently 6 figures a year. They are still using methods that work in the here and now even if they started in 2012. People have been saying "it's so much harder now because of X" every year I've been in this business.
> 
> It's never going to get easier, people. Ever. So...


Yup. It never is. It's only going to get harder and harder to succeed as the market becomes more saturated.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Those who've made money, don't stop. Once you make a tiny fraction of what you used to, it SUCKS. It's like suddenly all the good stuff you had doesn't matter to anyone anymore. Keep yourself relevant people.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I have to admit that the "it used to be much easier, and so you guys can't talk" line annoys me immensely. I was around in the hallowed days of 2011, and it *wasn't* easier. It was hard to find good professional services for one. Those that were around were expensive, and often not even very good. Without them, it was hard to sell. Just as hard as it is now. There was no FB advertising, there were no courses, and of course readers just hated self-published books full stop and TBH most of them looked bad. 

So, yano... "it was much easier back then" sounds like one of the many lame excuses people make to explain away their lack of success.

What I'm seeing in most 100k authors is that for one, they stop blaming other people for obstructions in their path, but they become proactive. Publishing more, sure, but that can only get you so far. You are very likely to need to do at least some advertising. Covers and blurbs are advertising. Reaching out to other authors and doing cross-promotions is advertising. You need to do something. When you want to get ahead, you have to try out things to see what will work, and before you do it, you have little idea of both what you like doing or what will result in sales, so try everything just once, and settle on the things that give the best results and that you enjoy doing.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

Word Fan said:


> I showed this to my father (the best programmer I know) and he laughed his arse off!


Haha! Glad I could make someone smile!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Patty Jansen said:


> I have to admit that the "it used to be much easier, and so you guys can't talk" line annoys me immensely. I was around in the hallowed days of 2011, and it *wasn't* easier. It was hard to find good professional services for one. Those that were around were expensive, and often not even very good. Without them, it was hard to sell. Just as hard as it is now. There was no FB advertising, there were no courses, and of course readers just hated self-published books full stop and TBH most of them looked bad.
> 
> So, yano... "it was much easier back then" sounds like one of the many lame excuses people make to explain away their lack of success.
> 
> What I'm seeing in most 100k authors is that for one, they stop blaming other people for obstructions in their path, but they become proactive. Publishing more, sure, but that can only get you so far. You are very likely to need to do at least some advertising. Covers and blurbs are advertising. Reaching out to other authors and doing cross-promotions is advertising. You need to do something. When you want to get ahead, you have to try out things to see what will work, and before you do it, you have little idea of both what you like doing or what will result in sales, so try everything just once, and settle on the things that give the best results and that you enjoy doing.


I agree. I was around watching indie publishing beginnings in 2009 and I started self-publishing in July of 2010. It was NOT easy back then either, it was just different. Different challenges, less information, fewer resources etc just as Patty describes. I published over 40 projects between 2010 and 2014 and sold almost nothing despite this so-called "easy time" I was publishing during, ha. So, again... you can complain about how it was easy back then (then being whatever you decide isn't now, of course) or... you can recognize that it never gets easier, so might as well figure out what is working and try it if what you are doing isn't getting you the results you want.

The good news is... there is a ton of information out there including things like, I dunno... lists of commonalities between authors who make a lot of money like the original post's article


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Now is always now, but the alchemy of it all isn't always the same. I might write a book as good as yours in the same genre, but my style might leave readers cold while yours leaves your readers excited. In a different genre, our roles could be reversed. Getting the alchemy working, though, that's unpredictable because you don't know what a of a zillion other options to choose. That's why somebody else's path is instructive but not definitive. I've read more than enough people who say, "I strayed from my thing and my sales suffered." They found an alchemy that worked for them, while others keep throwing spaghetti at the wall.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I also agree that it was not easier, except maybe in retrospect. Looking back _now_ you can see some stuff that seemed to work for a lot of people (and by a lot I mean some fraction of 1%), but it wasn't at all obvious at the time. I missed the initial wave of putting your book up for free and watching people propel your whole series, because it looked really dumb and like a slippery slope to a lot of people. Now I _pay_ people large sums of money to give my book away.

But really, so what if there are six million books and before there were two million. You think it's somehow noticeably easier to get ahead of 1,999,000 books than 5,999,000 books? We're not suddenly playing with a six million sided dice. Instead, I think you're still in competition with a few thousand serious indies, plus publishers, and that's the same as it was in 2012 or 2014.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

MonkishScribe said:


> But really, so what if there are six million books and before there were two million. You think it's somehow noticeably easier to get ahead of 1,999,000 books than 5,999,000 books? We're not suddenly playing with a six million sided dice. Instead, I think you're still in competition with a few thousand serious indies, plus publishers, and that's the same as it was in 2012 or 2014.


Right. This is also why more books alone will not ever make it any *harder*. What will make it harder is if retailers start putting up barriers to publishing, but I see no sign of this happening.

A larger catalogue merely means that you have to be more proactive in finding your own audience. IOW stop blaming (or relying on) retailer algorithms.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

MonkishScribe said:


> But really, so what if there are six million books and before there were two million. You think it's somehow noticeably easier to get ahead of 1,999,000 books than 5,999,000 books? We're not suddenly playing with a six million sided dice. Instead, I think you're still in competition with a few thousand serious indies, plus publishers, and that's the same as it was in 2012 or 2014.


I agree with this. No matter how much tactics or vendors change, readers still want books that move them and make them read to the end. That's how publishing has always been. Keep focusing on craft and write books readers want to read. There's a small subset of active writers working right now doing just that and finding success. AMZ ads, Facebook ads, Bookbub, etc. It's all secondary to writing a book someone would actually want to read, and putting a great cover and blurb on it. A lot of 100k+ writers are doing that consistently, ads or no ads. Want success? Do that.


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

Speaking as a full timer who is half way to seven figures, I've learned a lot and stumbled on much more. Like Rosalind, I simply began writing what I liked to read. I had no idea what writing to market was about, the phrase hadn't even been coined. I've learned a lot since then, and read many books on the subject of writing and publishing, including all of Chris's works. What Rosalind and I have done completely by dumb luck, can be replicated intentionally. Using Chris's book "Write to Market" I was able to sharpen and do intentionally, what had been my natural process.

What does it take to reach six figures or even hit that lofty $1M mark? Consistency would be at the top of the list. Consistent writing, consistent productivity, and consistent marketing. I've never marketed, promoted, or advertised a new release. In fact, the last five books in the Jesse McDermitt series have never had an ad of any kind, and the only price change has been a $1 reduction, when the next book is released. I do very little advertising on the first five now. Even a BookBub ad is dwarfed by a new release and the BB revenue spike barely reaches a new release tail. So, while marketing and advertising is extremely important, there can come a time that you'll see that it's not a forever thing.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Like Rosalind, *I simply began writing what I liked to read*. I had no idea what writing to market was about, the phrase hadn't even been coined. I've learned a lot since then, and read many books on the subject of writing and publishing, including all of Chris's works. What Rosalind and I have done completely by dumb luck, can be replicated intentionally. Using Chris's book "Write to Market" *I was able to sharpen and do intentionally, what had been my natural process.*


This only works if your taste is a mass market taste. If it isn't as common, or worse, if it is so specific that it is hard to find a lot of books to read in that niche, then what you have probably isn't an underserved niche at all. The shoe would be on the other foot: there are so few books, because few people want to read books like that.

Writing to the market only works if there is an actual market.


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## DGS (Sep 25, 2013)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Speaking as a full timer who is half way to seven figures, I've learned a lot and stumbled on much more. Like Rosalind, I simply began writing what I liked to read. I had no idea what writing to market was about, the phrase hadn't even been coined. I've learned a lot since then, and read many books on the subject of writing and publishing, including all of Chris's works. What Rosalind and I have done completely by dumb luck, can be replicated intentionally. Using Chris's book "Write to Market" I was able to sharpen and do intentionally, what had been my natural process.
> 
> What does it take to reach six figures or even hit that lofty $1M mark? Consistency would be at the top of the list. Consistent writing, consistent productivity, and consistent marketing. I've never marketed, promoted, or advertised a new release. In fact, the last five books in the Jesse McDermitt series have never had an ad of any kind, and the only price change has been a $1 reduction, when the next book is released. I do very little advertising on the first five now. Even a BookBub ad is dwarfed by a new release and the BB revenue spike barely reaches a new release tail. So, while marketing and advertising is extremely important, there can come a time that you'll see that it's not a forever thing.


Do you think at some point you need to also be innovative, what I mean is like PBC said create your own niche within that market and find those readers. I've felt this - my branding being hotter and explicit sex scenes and heavy heavy dose of suspense, which I didn't think many others were doing at the time, I was doing it naturally because I can't write simple romance.


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## GeneDoucette (Oct 14, 2014)

PaulineMRoss said:


> This is very true, and I'd love to hear from some of the more recent successes to see what was different about their path to six figures a year.


I don't really know if it's fair to answer this since I very much don't know if I can STAY above six figures. I officially crossed the $100K threshold at the end of May, 2017. Next year? who knows?

In 2012, I was with a publisher, and I only had a couple of books out, and they were priced at $9.99. I put out a third book with the publisher in 2013, and while the first two had great success (by my definition at the time) the new one didn't. In 2014, I was going to be putting out a third book in the Immortal trilogy in October--the lead time between completion and publication was more than six months--and I was looking to remind readers about the first two books. I started putting out novellas centered on the main character of the Immortal series. I self-published them: three between May 2014 and October 2014. When doing that, I taught myself everything I could about doing this on my own, relying very much on the people on this board for advice.

The third novel in October did pretty well, but by then I could work out the math, and realized that my take-home for sales could be four times larger than it was for the same sales figures. In December, I put out a fourth novella, and the following April (2015 now) I put out a fifth.

In May of 2015, I scored a bookbub for Immortal, which was challenging for several reasons: I did it instead of the publisher, and only because they decided on their own to mark down the price for the book for the entire month with no advertising other than a notice on their website; I had to convince them there was actual value in a bookbub promo; i had to make sure they were together enough to mark down the book correctly; i had to pay for stacked promos before the BB myself, since they also didn't believe in them and didn't reimburse me for them.

In July, I put out a sixth novella, and started asking for my rights back. Around this same time, I got the idea that became The Spaceship Next Door. I wrote it over a few months and published it in December 2015. it didn't set anything on fire, but it's worth noting that my sales from self-publishing were already more than my royalties from the publisher, even with the Bookbub and its tail, and before TSND debuted.

Early 2016, I secured a date in which I'd get my novels back: September 1st. Also, in January iTunes decided to feature Spaceship, which was nice and entirely not in my control. in May 2016, Spaceship had its first Bookbub. This was huge, and put enough in the bank so that I could set aside enough to hire a narrator for a Spaceship audiobook.

In September, I republished the Immortal trilogy, and Fixer, and the Spaceship audiobook came out. I lost all of the also-bought history for the novels, but that was okay because the Spaceship audiobook hit the ground running. I don't know how. It just did. (What do I mean by this? 1000+ downloads a month with no promotion--I didn't even use the promo codes--for three months straight.)

Then came a ridiculous string of success that I don't think I'll ever be able to replicate or fully explain.

November: an international-only Bookbub for Fixer
December: another Bookbub for Spaceship, US only
December: book four of Immortal novel series released, the same week as the Spaceship BB promo
January: a Bookbub for book one of the Immortal series, worldwide
March: Audible makes Spaceship a Daily Deal, resulting in over 8,000 downloads in one day

In all of that I was also rolling out the audiobook versions of the Immortal series.

In the next few weeks everything (even the novellas) will be available in audio, because I've been using all that money to get caught up.

So: to the original question, that's how I ended up with six figures in 2017. As you can see, being able to sustain any of this depends on Bookbub continuing to accept my books and Audible to continue to sell well. (Already, the latter is starting to fall off.) Right now, I'm concentrating on putting more than one book out a year--my next one goes live in a few days--and saving what I can for the day Bookbub stops smiling on me.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Nic said:


> Writing to the market only works if there is an actual market.


The whole point of writing to market starts with identifying an actual market and then writing to it. The market comes first.


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> The whole point of writing to market starts with identifying an actual market and then writing to it. The market comes first.


That's what I am saying. The assumption that people "could just write what they like to read" and end up making 100k "writing to that market" is ridiculous if what you like to read isn't anywhere near popular.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

I have to heartily agree with Patty and others who said that it isn't harder now than it was, even though I wasn't THERE in indie publishing, but I've seen this with every business I've been involved in.

When I was looking for an agent for my YA novels in 2005-2008, YA was booming. I finally got an agent in 2008 and people were already starting to say it was getting harder to sell a book. My agent sold that book in three weeks. That series did okay, not amazing, and by the time I had to write another series in 2011, people were really talking about how YA was dying, boom over, Borders out of business, ebook market is growing and affecting publishers (I should have paid more attention to this at the time!), advances are shrinking, blah blah. Doom and gloom all the time. Agent still sold that next book + sequel for six figures in three weeks.

Well, the book itself didn't do that well, and it was also delayed by various circumstances, so I had to make money fast while juggling deadlines. I started up a business selling antiques on Ebay. All the Ebay groups were full of the same doom and gloom. Ebay used to be so easy! Ebay's rules were more fair! People would leave antiques on the STREET and then people in Japan would pay $1000 for them! (Okay, they didn't quite go that far but it was still a little like that.) Wellp, here I was again in after that great wondrous boom, but I still studied the market, found a niche (postcards) and was soon making almost 30k a year. 

Then I got into self publishing. Same thing. The good times are over! I've been doing this about a year and the first year I've made about 29k. I've been continually working hard, studying the market, reading lots of Kindle books, finding niches where the stuff I already like to write can fit in, trying different things, marketing consistently but not spending crazy amounts of time on it. This month alone I think I'll make about 5k and I'm feeling really hopeful about this upcoming year because I'm starting to have a backlist and feel like I know what I'm doing.

That isn't to say I don't worry CONSTANTLY that I could fail at this. And I did with my previous two endeavors as well. But I don't think things really get "harder all the time" as much as people think. That's a human nature myth right up there with "kids today are worse than when I was young". I'm sure loads of people self-published back in the day and failed miserably. But are they hanging around here talking about it? Of course not, why would they? We think it was easier because we hear this from the people who did well back then. Some of them are still thriving, some might be struggling a little more, but that is the natural ebb and flow of creative business.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> I have to admit that the "it used to be much easier, and so you guys can't talk" line annoys me immensely. I was around in the hallowed days of 2011, and it *wasn't* easier. It was hard to find good professional services for one. Those that were around were expensive, and often not even very good. Without them, it was hard to sell. Just as hard as it is now. There was no FB advertising, there were no courses, and of course readers just hated self-published books full stop and TBH most of them looked bad.
> 
> So, yano... "it was much easier back then" sounds like one of the many lame excuses people make to explain away their lack of success.


I don't think anyone is saying "it was easier before so your opinion doesn't count." We're saying certain things work better at certain times, so you need to pay attention to when something worked for an author. Copying the techniques that helped people launch their careers in 2012 won't work as well in 2017. The fundamentals stay the same, but the specific strategies change


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Nic said:


> That's what I am saying. The assumption that people "could just write what they like to read" and end up making 100k "writing to that market" is ridiculous if what you like to read isn't anywhere near popular.


This is a good point. There are some people who just write what they want to read and it turns out what they want to read is a popular genre or a genre with an underserved yet hungry readership. But if what you want to read doesn't really have an audience, then you're going to have a lot more trouble. That's why Chris' WTM talks about finding a genre that you not only want to write in, but also has potential for success. You have to find that intersection.


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## 56139 (Jan 21, 2012)

NeedWant said:


> You single-handedly created a market for your kind of book in the romance genre?
> 
> This business changes every year, and visibility is getting harder and harder to get without spending a lot on advertising. Frequent releases might ease it a bit, but you still have to get people to notice your books. You yourself admit to spending mega bucks on advertising and you started publishing when gaining traction was a lot easier than it is now. I know I didn't start making money on my books until I did a free promo on the first one. And now I have continuous AMS ads running to keep that income. (I release a lot less than I want to. I'm trying to up my production this year, though.)
> 
> ...


I most certainly did create my market. They don't call me the Queen of the Mind-[expletive] for nothing. And no one was writing the Mind-[expletive] back in 2012. NO ONE. No one really writes it now. Not like I do. I push every limit. I take HUGE risks and they almost always pay off because I know what my readers want. But even when I fail, I just get back up and do it again.

I can point to so many newbies who are doing well, it's not funny. There are a billion ways to success in this business. Find yours because it's not going to find you. It's not harder now, it's just different.

And for the record, the book that launched my career didn't have a Bookbub. (It was my 6th book, if you're interested) I got an ENT book of the day right after release because I hat a spot booked for another book in another genre, put it to 99c, and it took off. So yes, I had some luck. But the rest - the entire YEAR that came after that - was what made me who I am right now. Not the ad. If anyone here thinks that one good book is enough to get you to where I am, you're wrong. It's good book, after good book, after good book that gets you here.

I didn't make USA until my 14th book. I didn't make NYT until my 19th book. I have 50 books right now and only 12 of them are bestsellers. So yeah. It wasn't easy., I just worked hard and made it happen. And when it did happen, I never let up. I never stopped working. I never took it for granted.

THIS BUSINESS ISN'T FOR EVERYONE. So if you think you deserve success like I have, you're wrong. Everyone wants to be a rock star. Not everyone gets to be one. But for those few who work hard, have talent, and take risks - it pays off. Be one of those people.

NO ONE can give you fans. You have to do that yourself. Sorry. Cold. Hard. Truth. If your immediate response is "I can't find fans" or "Finding fans is too hard" well, go cry in a corner. If you don't have fans you have nothing. So you better be able to find them.

And for the record, I think everyone should be advertising. I don't do it much now, but when I do, I spend like a mo-fo.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> I most certainly did create my market. They don't call me the Queen of the Mind-F*ck for nothing. And no one was writing the Mind-F*ck back in 2012. NO ONE. No one really writes it now. Not like I do. I push every limit. I take HUGE risks and they almost always pay off because I know what my readers want. But even when I fail, I just get back up and do it again.
> 
> Now listen, over on FB me and my friends are all looking at this thread going... They just don't listen. They just make excuses. Stop it. I can point to so many newbies who are doing well, it's not funny. There are a billion ways to success in this business. Find yours because it's not going to find you. It's not harder now, it's just different.
> 
> ...


Man, I wish I knew your pen name. I would love to read one of your books - if your "voice" is anything like your posts, I'm sure your books are a hoot!


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

The secret is the same as it has always been. Ready?

1) Write a book people want to read.
2) Get a great cover than conveys genre.
3) Write a great blurb that makes people want to read your book.
4) Advertise the crap out of your book and maintain a newsletter list.
5) Repeat steps 1-4 over and over and over again until you no longer need to rely as heavily on advertising.

Here's what you need to know about advertising: If you get a ton of eyes on your book and no one buys it, something is wrong with the cover, blurb, or opening. If you give away thousands of books and there isn't any read through, something is wrong with the story. Figure out the problems, fix them, and repeat steps 1-4.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

And please, for the love of humanity, stop saying things like, "But you started when it was easier. You don't understand."

Most of us have pen names we've launched or friends we mentor who are just starting out. We KNOW how different it is. The secret is still the same.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Annie B said:


> I published over 40 projects between 2010 and 2014 and sold almost nothing despite this so-called "easy time" I was publishing during, ha. So, again... you can complain about how it was easy back then (then being whatever you decide isn't now, of course) or... you can recognize that it never gets easier, so might as well figure out what is working and try it if what you are doing isn't getting you the results you want.


Didn't you have a thriller that took off during that period because of the free to paid algo at that time? You just didn't capitalize on it by writing more thrillers and your pricing was out of wack, so nothing really came if it.

But yeah, when I say "easier" I don't mean "easy" by any stretch. All the success stories I've read involve good old fashioned hard work. Working hard _and_ smart seems to be the key. I'm at a level now (lower five figures a year) where I feel I need to work a lot harder if I want to up my income. I don't write nearly as much as I feel I need to. The few fans I have are always asking about the next book!



PeanutButterCracker said:


> I can point to so many newbies who are doing well, it's not funny. There are a billion ways to success in this business. Find yours because it's not going to find you. It's not harder now, it's just different.


I would say it's harder _and_ different at the same time. Some stuff might be easier (more advertising options) but some stuff is harder (staying sticky, getting as many eyeballs on your work).

But yeah, I don't think me acknowledging that things were different (and yes, in many ways, _easier_) back in the day is me making excuses. Unless I'm using it as an excuse to just throw up my hands and give up. Or asking to be handed something I didn't earn. I hope I didn't come across as someone doing that.



> But the rest - the entire YEAR that came after that - was what made me who I am right now. Not the ad. If anyone here thinks that one good book is enough to get you to where I am, you're wrong. It's good book, after good book, after good book that gets you here.
> 
> I didn't make USA until my 14th book. I didn't make NYT until my 19th book. I have 50 books right now and only 12 of them are bestsellers. So yeah. It wasn't easy., I just worked hard and made it happen. And when it did happen, I never let up. I never stopped working. I never took it for granted.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on every point here.

As I said, I love reading success stories. And the one thing I take away from all of them is: working hard and smart is the best combination. When I say something was easier back in the day, I'm not saying it was easy at all. Sorry if it sounded like that. I'm not crying in the corner, I assure you.  I soak up all the information I can from those far more successful than me, but saying "thank you, thank you" and not questioning anything isn't really my style.

My only pet peeve when it comes to these posts is those that say that they could replicate their success today with no problem. Sorry, I just don't think it's that simple. It's certainly _possible_, but I think it would also involve doing things a lot differently as well, and the same level of success won't be a guarantee at all.

_Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## pwtucker (Feb 12, 2011)

So much good stuff has already been said in this thread that I don't know if I have much to contribute, other than I agree with the original article that Rosalind linked to. It took me five years of working very hard to finally break the 100k barrier, and for most of that time my learning curve was flat. I was just writing and publishing without any semblance of a marketing plan. Then I discovered KBoards, read a bunch of great posts, and everything changed. I hired professional cover designers, work shopped my blurbs to death, created a mailing list, learned how the Amazon algorithms work, and figured out what elements of marketing were worthwhile and which ones weren't.

If you work hard on your craft, write compelling books in popular genres, line up the right amount of promotions and make sure your books look professional in all aspects (cover, blurb, look inside, key words, categories, pricing, etc) then you stand a chance of making it - especially if you're able to publish once every three months.

There are no guarantees, no surefire formulas, no tricks or short cuts. There's only a fierce combination of talent, discipline, persistence and willingness to always learn that amount to something akin to monomania.


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

Awesome article, thank you for the share. Bookmarked and I'm gonna read it again I'm sure. Some fantastic information there. I think there's many many paths to success in this field but it's awesome to learn about what are the most common factors.

My takeaways:
1. 30 books vs. 7 books. Clearly volume and prolific writing is a huge determining factor. Outside of the most important thing, which is of course that you write well and craft great stories. And that you never stop trying to improve.

2. To me,* the fact that I love what I'm writing is still probably the key element for me.* If I ever am chasing 100k+ so hard that I'm writing shit I don't even like or am just meh about, I'm going to stop. That's not what it's about for me and it never will be. I'm grateful as hell that what I love to write is something that people have really wanted to read. I'd be pissed if I loved writing in some genre no one read in lol.

3. The time I spent writing full time I certainly wrote a ton, but I found I felt really lonely and isolated. It was a pretty valuable experience, because I need so much to be out in the world to get inspired and energetic and just feel like a part of something. I loved writing full time but part of me thinks it's way better to have some other job to keep you stimulated and not stuck in a jar.

-Evan


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## Nic (Nov 17, 2013)

PeanutButterCracker said:
 

> I most certainly did create my market. They don't call me the Queen of the Mind-[expletive] for nothing. And no one was writing the Mind-[expletive] back in 2012. NO ONE. No one really writes it now. Not like I do.


What is the "Mind-[expletive]"? Is that cant for a particular genre? If yes, which?

_Edited quoted post which worked around our filters and response. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## lurkerwriter (Jun 17, 2017)

I have been a lurker for a while and I just want to say that I appreciate all the advice from PBC, Rosalind, Chris, Amanda and others. I am listening and absorbing All of your advice. At the end of the day it comes down to the writing. To put out a book that you don't have to pull because you rushed it to market and now regret the content(been there). Too many are focused on the after instead of getting back to the writing. You can promote, get eyes on your book but the writing needs to be solid. 

I am shocked by the negativity towards those who have made a career for themselves. For instance, it is like a chef who decides to cook a meal for you, a free meal, and instead of being appreciative, you pick their meal apart and tell them that they are a liar, they aren't culinary trained even though you taste the food and it is the best you ever had and all you can make is ramen noodles.
I admit, I am jealous but it is a healthy jealousy because I want to be where they are. They motivate me.  When I look at Amanda's word count, I don't make excuses,  I work harder.  When I am about to write for the day, I watch Chris's Youtube videos.  They are all confident in their books because they work at it.

The self-publishing market, unfortunately, has become the soap making business. There are so many types of soaps sold on etsy, most sellers copy the same recipe as their competitor and wonder why they aren't selling thousands. There are others, however, that make unique soaps from scratch and are doing well. ( I was into soap making as a hobby) There will always be people who jump around into "popular careers, i.e self-publishing, selling on etsy and ebay because they think they'll make millions in weeks. I believe that those who work hard at the craft will rise to the top.

Thank you, all of you who share your advise.  It motivates me, more than you know.  I will not complain, I will work hard and focus on the story.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

PeanutButterCracker said:


> I didn't make USA until my 14th book. I didn't make NYT until my 19th book. I have 50 books right now and only 12 of them are bestsellers. So yeah. It wasn't easy.


_Only_ 12 bestsellers. You have my condolences.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I think certain things were easier "back in the day" (I enjoy feeling old) and other things weren't. When I started, I made huge errors on things. I didn't have proper editing in place (something I'm stuck with now thanks to audio) and I had no idea about marketing and branding. I didn't know this place existed. I was a complete island (probably the one from Lost with the polar bears). I still managed to pick up some readers, although nowhere near the readers that everyone else seemed to pick up back then. I didn't really break out until late 2013/early 2014. So, yeah, once I got my game together it was easier to pick up readers. It involved a great deal of learning and struggling, though. Now it's much easier to handle some of the basics, like formatting (Vellum rocks), editing, covers, etc. I don't do nearly the amount of marketing others do, although I do some and constantly try for BookBubs (just got turned down again today). I write under two names. My main name pretty much does about 2.5 times better than my pen name (not counting bonuses). I'm still in six figures for the year on my pen name (which means I'm technically two six-figure authors, which adds up to more than seven figures by the end of the year) and I managed to survive the earlier errors. One of the big things about the current market that is different is that it's harder to make the errors and still sell. Readers are savvier now than they were then.
For me, I base 90 percent of my marketing on new releases. Period. I'm boring that way. I do the work. Even today, since I can't be in the pool thanks to thunderstorms, I'm doing a million busywork tasks (blurbs, downloading audio for omnibuses, coordinating, even writing two chapters because it will get me ahead for next week) while watching The Walking Dead. People don't like it when I say it, but I firmly believe that doing the work is the most important thing. It's what allows me to keep writing things that don't always sell as well. I'm fine with that. I finish everything and consider each series a learning experience. Sure, you have to either create your own market or write to an existing one if you want to make money, and you have to understand your audience, and you have to do all of those things relatively quickly. There's no magic pill, though. You have to do the work.
I think we're in an incredible state of flux in this business right now. I think we're going to see some changes again in the next few months. I'm ready for it. I know I will have to adapt when it happens. I still think I will be focusing on new releases when it happens, though. I don't foresee my approach changing.
Do I think new authors can break out? Absolutely. I see it all the time. It doesn't happen in a vacuum, though. In each and every case (other than those people paying bots for ranking, of course), the author did the work. If they want to maintain what they've built, they have to keep doing the work. The new thing I'm seeing is people pitching shortcuts. Some of those shortcuts might actually work in the short-term. They won't work over the long haul, though. In simple point of fact, the only audience that's going to stay with you for the duration is the organic one. It's a pain to build that. It's a lot of work to do that. But it's totally worth it to do that.
So ... back to writing and The Walking Dead.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

I feel as though discussions and questions of this nature will never, ever be resolved. Of course that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed, but it's also why the discussions can seem so frustrating.

I feel very fortunate to have read and absorbed the advice from all people here on kboards (big earners and prawns alike), but I don't for a second think I can necessarily apply the advice and start making six figures (or five, or four, or any). The advice gives a great head start, and a greater chance of success (or, from another perspective, it removes obvious reasons for failure). That advice covers things like editing, covers, formatting - all the stuff that basically all big earners are doing.

But the thing that makes them seperate out from the pack? That, I think, is basically unknowable. Some people say its writing to market, some people insist its not. Some people say its marketing, other people say otherwise. Some people say you've gotta release frequently, others say it's not necessarily. There's clearly a large chunk of advice that basically every agrees upon, but the last *thing* that gives the big earners flight will remain mysterious, mainly because it seems to be a different thing for everyone.

I picture us all as little baby sea turtles flapping our way towards the ocean for the first time. Some will make it, some won't. It's hard to know specifically which ones will make it, and why (calm day at the beach? genetic advantage? luck?), but after a certain point I don't much see the reason in arguing about it. There's obviously not one answer. But we can support each other in basic swimming techniques to give ourselves the best possible shot at surviving.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

EvanPickering said:


> My takeaways:
> 
> 2. To me,* the fact that I love what I'm writing is still probably the key element for me.* If I ever am chasing 100k+ so hard that I'm writing [crap] I don't even like or am just meh about, I'm going to stop. That's not what it's about for me and it never will be. I'm grateful as hell that what I love to write is something that people have really wanted to read. I'd be p*ssed if I loved writing in some genre no one read in lol.
> 
> -Evan


If you're like me, you can't write "crap" consciously. Unconsciously?  That's a different thing.

What I mean is that if you are a hack writer and consciously write what you consider to be "crap" your writing will show it and probably your bank account will as well -- eventually -- because you will burn out and stop writing.

I am sure there will be a few successful authors who write what they consider to be "crap" and are successful but I suspect if you write what you think is "crap" for the bucks, you will get so sick of writing it that you will burn out.

I write romance, erotic and paranormal, and I try to put out the best quality stuff I can. I try to be emotionally honest and put out well-edited material. It's not going to win any literary awards. That's not what my readers care about. But they do care about a good story well told -- appropriate for the genre and category.

If you do that, you don't have to consider writing "crap" in order to make bank.

Tell a good story and do it well. If you want to make a living, then you have to write good stories told well enough and in a market with enough readers.

You have to have respect for your readers, because even if they don't care about literature and prefer fiction, and even if they aren't interested in how literary your prose is, they still know what they like and show it with their dollars.

The sweet spot is when you find that overlap in the Venn Diagram of "What I enjoy writing" and "What has a market."

Give those readers what they want and they will reward you with loyalty and become fans. Fans will keep you afloat.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, 

Catching up with this thread after dealing with an internet outage.  Go write something or read some of the many other threads while I catch up.

EDIT:  Unlocked. I've edited some posts and removed others. Let's keep it civil.  PeanutButterCracker, if your friends want to join here and take part in the conversation, they're welcome to speak for themselves.  And you can speak for yourself.  You've been a member long enough to know the kind of discourse we're looking for.

Betsy
KB Mod


/edited for clarity.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

anniejocoby said:


> Man, I wish I knew your pen name. I would love to read one of your books - if your "voice" is anything like your posts, I'm sure your books are a hoot!


Anniejacoby, she mentions who she is in this post


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## EvanPickering (Mar 8, 2016)

sela said:


> If you're like me, you can't write "crap" consciously. Unconsciously?  That's a different thing.
> 
> What I mean is that if you are a hack writer and consciously write what you consider to be "crap" your writing will show it and probably your bank account will as well -- eventually -- because you will burn out and stop writing.
> 
> ...


I didn't exactly word it well, but what I meant was, I never want to be writing quality fiction that doesn't get me excited. The word "crap" was a poor choice of noun to describe "whatever it is I'm writing at the time". Obviously writing can be a grind sometimes even when you love it, but if I'm writing in a Genre or a story that doesn't get me going just because I know it will sell if I write it well and I want to make $X, I'm going to re-evaluate things.

I guess what I'm saying is, success, *for me personally*, is writing a story I'm passionate about that also has great success. Like what you said about the Venn Diagram 

I also agree that the story that you're passionate about that does well often is not a coincidence, if it's high quality writing.

Also, I was thinking about what *Chris Fox* posted much earlier about hate and misinformation about WTM...

I think I, like many people, have wildly misunderstood what "write to market" truly means. I think it basically just means that you're writing with a pre-determined market and story structure that you know is well received--regardless of the quality of the writing or how fast you churn them out or whether or not you give a damn about the story. You can write a two-year passion project to market.

In that sense, Writing to Market is mostly just being smart and doing your research. Unless you want to try to create your own subgenre or do something else brave with some risk involved, WTM is probably something every writer should be doing.

So in that sense, it's not just a dirty word for "LOOK IM SELLING REPETITIVE CRAP READERS EAT UP." Instead, it's a term for "LOOK IM DOING MY RESEARCH AND HAVE A PLAN FOR SUCCESS FOR THIS NOVEL, WHATEVER MY GOALS MAY BE."

Thoughts and stuff,
Evan


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

After thinking about this business as a whole, and from my observations from 2012 to now, I believe it really boils down to probably the most important aspect of becoming a successful author is in marketing 'you' (the author brand).

Maybe that's what makes even what some perceive as 'crap' making the charts (although what's 'crap' to one, isn't 'crap' to another. But let's just say that not all stellar writing has made the charts).

As some have noted, FANS should be the number one goal to shoot for. I'm sure we've all scratched our heads wondering why some authors are consistently on the top of the charts when their writing isn't all that stellar, well, for the ones not engaging in black hat methods, it's probably due to they've garnered FANS who actively engage in promoting that author and their books.

An author working their brand is the best marketing strategy of all. Even more than paid advertising, in my opinion.

NA (New Adult) is one genre that shows this clearly. That genre has readers who if they become fans of an author, they will spread their enthusiasm like a virus to their blog/Goodreads/etc. followers, which in turn boosts an author's career.

Many authors rally up a 'street team' for this very purpose. It's a marketing strategy to boost their brand. And it's very effective because every time they have a new release, wham, the street team goes to work and spreads the word, pumping that book up the charts. Then Amazon algos kick in and does the rest.

So as I see it, we have 3 important aspects ...
[list type=decimal]
[*]Garner a FAN base and get that fan base to vocalize their support to where they help promote you. Also, fans LOVE to feel they are helping an author's career.
[*]Write books that people want to read and recommend
[*]Do some paid advertising
[/list]
For authors who aren't social, they might have to do #2 & #3 heavily, but for those who are very social, #1 & #2 _[edited to include #2 after Deanna's post ] _might be all you need. But of course, doing ALL three is optimum.

#1 is probably the most powerful of the three, though. Those authors who have charisma and can work their fan base, they are the ones who will most probably be making 6-figure incomes (even 7-figures) most consistently and for years to come.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Quote from: AliceW on June 15, 2017, 02:44:46 PM

Threads like this are a good example of why more meaningful conversations about business practices are now happening in private groups with smaller memberships.



Becca Mills said:


> I think this theme, which I see voiced often, though fortunately just by a handful of people, is itself damaging to the forum. How much would you want to come back to a place that's consistently maligned as somewhere the cool kids don't want to hang out anymore?
> 
> When you speak here, you're speaking to everyone. That poses challenges, yes, but it's also a strength. Public discourse is always that way.


But that's the reality. So it's not unreasonable to acknowledge that it's happening. Rosalind has specifically stated she's pulling back because of the way she feels she's been treated, so it's reasonable for us to believe her.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Lorri Moulton said:


> I do #1 and #2, but no money for #3. I write for me, but it is a pleasure if other people enjoy my books. And interacting with them is the best way to use social media, in my opinion.
> 
> Again, it helps to be sociable and want to talk to people. I enjoy it! But I also used to teach, so I miss that interaction.


Good for you, Lorri! You're lucky it comes naturally for you because I have a hard time keeping up with social media--it overwhelms me  . But I realize it's a great form of marketing.


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## Diamond Eyes (Feb 11, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> finding a great civet designer












Well hello there. Affordable rates. Contact me.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

wheart said:


> As some have noted, FANS should be the number one goal to shoot for. I'm sure we've all scratched our heads wondering why some authors are consistently on the top of the charts when their writing isn't all that stellar, well, for the ones not engaging in black hat methods, it's probably due to they've garnered FANS who actively engage in promoting that author and their books.
> 
> An author working their brand is the best marketing strategy of all. Even more than paid advertising, in my opinion.
> 
> NA (New Adult) is one genre that shows this clearly. That genre has readers who if they become fans of an author, they will spread their enthusiasm like a virus to their blog/Goodreads/etc. followers, which in turn boosts an author's career.


I strongly disagree with this. The top authors who consistently sell books, sell them because readers resonate with their stories. Their stories have that "it factor." They connect with the reader. Every top author has books that bomb, that don't sell as well as the others, and that don't resonate for whatever reason. No amount of tweets, blogs, or Facebook posts will change that. Will that help sell some books? Sure. But it won't turn a dud into a bestseller. It just won't.

The number one thing an author can do is to write a book that resonates with readers. That will gain them fans. Street teams/fan engagement means nothing without the books to back up the enthusiasm.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

When you consider fans/people willing to post and spread the word about your books, think about this: I can send a book out and have it sell really well and continue to sell well because I have a certain amount of name recognition, some people have read my books and liked them, and when they see a new one they will pick it up. If I send out the call to my "fans" to promote someone else's book in the same genre, that might help pick up some sales, but it does nothing to help the book to continue to sell well. It is a small blip of sales for one or two days. That author has to amass their own fans _that want to read that author's books_. There is no shortcut. It takes time to build that reader base.

Don't think for one minute that street teams are the secret sauce. They aren't. In fact, I ditched mine and now just post to my Facebook page and spend money on advertising.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

EvanPickering said:


> Also, I was thinking about what *Chris Fox* posted much earlier about hate and misinformation about WTM...
> 
> I think I, like many people, have wildly misunderstood what "write to market" truly means. I think it basically just means that you're writing with a pre-determined market and story structure that you know is well received--regardless of the quality of the writing or how fast you churn them out or whether or not you give a damn about the story. You can write a two-year passion project to market.
> 
> ...


You got it now. It's finding that sweet spot where popularity meets passion and then researching the genre to see what's worked for others.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

NeedWant said:


> Didn't you have a thriller that took off during that period because of the free to paid algo at that time? You just didn't capitalize on it by writing more thrillers and your pricing was out of wack, so nothing really came if it.
> 
> _Edited quoted post. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


Yes and no. It made me a couple thousand in the weeks after I did that (and yes, my pricing was WAY off, sigh) and I didn't follow it up. Maybe if I had I would have hit 6 figure income, but I was missing a lot of other pieces besides sequels (like my wonky pricing...) so I'll never know. While you don't get the same rank boost now, free still works for me quite well, btw.

As a data point, in the four years of "easy mode" time... I made about 3500 total on Amazon across about 40 titles. I did more than that my first *month* of my relaunching my career with deliberate choices designed to follow the advice and example of people who were actually successful and with only two titles making up the bulk of that.

It's all about choices and continuing to try things that you see working for others, because you never never know what will work for you. Worrying about how tough it is isn't going to sell your books, because it has always been tough and it will never not be tough. However, you aren't out there alone and thanks to how open people are in this biz about what works for them, you don't have to do this in the dark with no information. There's tons of it right there. Listen to the people who are where you want to be, odds are they have advice and methods you can use.

Also... I don't know how effective marketing you as an author brand is. My UF fans love that series, but very few buy anything else I write. I finally got a Bookbub on another series of mine, and had almost no crossover bump to my other work after it (and I was slow in getting out the next book in the promoted series, so I had no bump at all after 3 days post-bub, whoops). I'm probably not a big enough author yet to have the kind of rabid fanbase that promotes their work, and I've never cultivated one either cause I'm lazy and have other things I'd rather spend my time on. I have no ARC team, no FB group or anything. I hardly ever mail my list except to announce new releases. I don't use social media to promote my books for the most part, I just like to hang out with peeps there and talk powerlifting, politics, tattoos, gaming etc. However... being more proactive about that stuff probably wouldn't hurt, so don't take me as an example unless you hate that kind of marketing. My advice is to never do any marketing you hate, because people will pick up on your misery and also life is too short to be miserable.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Also... I don't know how effective marketing you as an author brand is. My UF fans love that series, but very few buy anything else I write. I finally got a Bookbub on another series of mine, and had almost no crossover bump to my other work after it (and I was slow in getting out the next book in the promoted series, so I had no bump at all after 3 days post-bub, whoops). I'm probably not a big enough author yet to have the kind of rabid fanbase that promotes their work, and I've never cultivated one either cause I'm lazy and have other things I'd rather spend my time on. I have no ARC team, no FB group or anything. I hardly ever mail my list except to announce new releases. I don't use social media to promote my books for the most part, I just like to hang out with peeps there and talk powerlifting, politics, tattoos, gaming etc. However... being more proactive about that stuff probably wouldn't hurt, so don't take me as an example unless you hate that kind of marketing. My advice is to never do any marketing you hate, because people will pick up on your misery and also life is too short to be miserable.


Yes, I haven't found readers to generally be into crossing over into different "vibes." My rock star readers occasionally read my backlist billionaire books, but it doesn't happen often judging by sales numbers and also-boughts. I get it, because I wouldn't read them either if I was a random reader, but I would gobble up my rock star books. It's just a totally different vibe, even if they're both sexy romance. Also, TBH, my main series(es?) are just better.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Deanna Chase said:


> But it won't turn a dud into a bestseller. It just won't.
> 
> The number one thing an author can do is to write a book that resonates with readers. That will gain them fans. Street teams/fan engagement means nothing without the books to back up the enthusiasm.


I totally agree that the book has to resonate with readers and a dud won't cut it (I've mentioned several times in other posts that books have to elicit an emotional trigger/response with readers to be one that they want to recommend), but what I was getting at is that even more than a 'stellarly' written book, the promotion brought on by fans is powerful.

Some people are calling certain books 'crap' that are making the top selling lists. But that's subjective. As I mentioned before, what's crap to one person is not crap to another. But even so, even if those books might not be written better than some others, why are they more successful than authors who have the stellar writing skills but just aren't making it ... what would cause that author and their books to always make it to top lists and consistently if they're not pouring tons of money into ads or engaging in black hat methods?

I feel a strong fan base who are vocal and supportive in promoting an author helps a lot and is pretty important if one can't put the money into paid ads.

I do agree that writing what people want to read and recommend is vital (I've said that all along), and yes, a dud of a book will fail in the long-run no matter how strong the promotion. I totally agree with that. Ah, I do see where I need to make a change to my other post with adding #2 in the part where I have #1 by itself, lol. I was mainly stressing the point where 'promotion by a fan base' to me is even more powerful than a stellarly written book. Because there are many authors who have the writing skills and their words and stories are wonderful, and we scratch our heads wondering why they aren't more successful, just as much as we scratch our heads wondering why some authors who aren't as skillful and even have reviews complaining about their bad grammar, stilted dialog, etc. ... are.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Annie B said:


> and I've never cultivated one either cause I'm lazy and have other things I'd rather spend my time on. I have no ARC team, no FB group or anything. I hardly ever mail my list except to announce new releases. I don't use social media to promote my books for the most part, I just like to hang out with peeps there and talk powerlifting, politics, tattoos, gaming etc. However... being more proactive about that stuff probably wouldn't hurt, so don't take me as an example unless you hate that kind of marketing. My advice is to never do any marketing you hate, because people will pick up on your misery and also life is too short to be miserable.


And this is why it's so wonderful (and we're grateful) of you folks who are sharing what you're actually doing, not doing, what works for you, what didn't work for you, etc. because there are definitely authors out there who then can make a better assessment of who they prefer to follow the advice of, because that's how they prefer to work their business.

Having all the varying methods discussed is important because as many have already stated, there's no right or wrong method, just different ways to get to the same goal.

So again, thank you to all those sharing in this manner 

*Edited *- I should mention, Annie B, I'm like you in regards to social media, so that was good to know about you. Not doing marketing that we hate was good advice


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

KennySkylin said:


> Well hello there. Affordable rates. Contact me.


This is clearly a homemade civet. The back legs look totally weird.


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## Dolphin (Aug 22, 2013)

I tell you what, if there's one takeaway I have from this thread, it's that Chris Fox is a genius.

He didn't coin the phrase "write to market," never made any claims on it in his book, never hid the fact that he wasn't telling you anything people haven't thought of before. Yet now it's his calling card. It's effectively his IP. Even Shawn Coyne, a guy who's been a professional publisher since Chris was playing D&D with his childhood friends, can't mention the idea without crediting "What's his name? Fox. I think it's Rob Fox? Anyway, what Rob Fox argues is..."

Makes no difference. A fox by any other name would be as ingenious.

Also +1 for civit editors. Their legs are a metaphor.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Becca Mills said:


> This is clearly a homemade civet. The back legs look totally weird.


And now, as a result of doing a search for civet images, I know far more about civet poop and coffee than I ever wanted to know....


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Crystal_ said:


> Yes, I haven't found readers to generally be into crossing over into different "vibes." My rock star readers occasionally read my backlist billionaire books, but it doesn't happen often judging by sales numbers and also-boughts. I get it, because I wouldn't read them either if I was a random reader, but I would gobble up my rock star books. It's just a totally different vibe, even if they're both sexy romance. Also, TBH, my main series(es?) are just better.


Crystal, I just want to say that your earlier post was great. Now it's gone and that makes me sad. 



Annie B said:


> Yes and no. It made me a couple thousand in the weeks after I did that (and yes, my pricing was WAY off, sigh) and I didn't follow it up. Maybe if I had I would have hit 6 figure income, but I was missing a lot of other pieces besides sequels (like my wonky pricing...) so I'll never know. While you don't get the same rank boost now, free still works for me quite well, btw.
> 
> As a data point, in the four years of "easy mode" time... I made about 3500 total on Amazon across about 40 titles. I did more than that my first *month* of my relaunching my career with deliberate choices designed to follow the advice and example of people who were actually successful and with only two titles making up the bulk of that.
> 
> ...


Lots of good points here, and I can't find anything to disagree with.

Yeah, the author brand thing is why I'm going to publish my UF under a different pen name. No need to confuse people with different genres. Though if one name really took off, I might be brave enough to experiment.

I only have a Facebook author page and a mailing list. I usually just post on Facebook when there's a new release. I could never do something like Twitter where I'd have to interact with people. I get mini anxiety attacks when people comment on my Facebook page! And they usually say super nice things! I also have trouble with forums, because I can't respond to every person I want to without posting way too much. But I do want to say:

*I appreciate every author in this thread (and on kboards in general) that has shared their experiences with the rest of us. I might nitpick or disagree with people on certain things, but overall I think this place has been invaluable to me. Every author who makes it in this business, whether at six figures or not, is an inspiration to me.*


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

wheart said:


> I totally agree that the book has to resonate with readers and a dud won't cut it (I've mentioned several times in other posts that books have to elicit an emotional trigger/response with readers to be one that they want to recommend), but what I was getting at is that even more than a 'stellarly' written book, the promotion brought on by fans is powerful.
> 
> Some people are calling certain books 'crap' that are making the top selling lists. But that's subjective. As I mentioned before, what's crap to one person is not crap to another. But even so, even if those books might not be written better than some others, why are they more successful than authors who have the stellar writing skills but just aren't making it ... what would cause that author and their books to always make it to top lists and consistently if they're not pouring tons of money into ads or engaging in black hat methods?
> 
> ...


I agree that having fans who spread the word _can_ be helpful. What I take issue with is that you listed it as the most important thing for high earners. I wouldn't even put it in my top five. The most important thing you can do is write a compelling novel in a genre that sells well, cover it properly, and then turn it into a series.

Cross promotional posts, multi-author boxed sets, newsletter ads via BookBub or smaller sites, Facebook ads, AMS ads, newsletter swaps, newsletter building, writing in Kindle Worlds, and other marketing strategies are all good things to consider and try. You don't have to do all of them and not all will make sense for everyone, but for me, these are the better strategies.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

TK aka BB said:


> I started publishing in 2013. I have the equivalent of 17 novel-length titles out there, I think. (All my short stories = 1 "novel." Several are tied up in 4-book mini-series that are very, very tightly linked, practically serials.) I broke 6-figures in 2015 (squeaker) and 2016 (better.) My covers aren't very good because I make them. I do that because every dang time I spend $5000+ on all new covers, my sales tank. So I persist.
> 
> Rosalind the OP, PBC, and Deanna Chase have excellent, excellent advice, and y'all should be heeding that advice with all your hearts. Anyone who isn't making 6-figs and wants to should be taking notes on those posts and figuring out to-do lists.
> 
> ...


This post is GOLD. Forget listening to me. Print this out and make it your new religion.


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

katrina46 said:


> Yep. My big goal is to buy a house with cash. However, the type of house I want and am currently saving for is only about 60,000k, which will get you a modest but decent house in my area of the country. I can do that simply by continuing to work a regular job and not spend my royalties a while longer. After that, I'm perfectly happy to earn between 3-5k a month, which puts me in the middle class and allows me not to work for someone else anymore because my biggest expense is taken care of. Wealth is not your income. It's your debt to income ratio, so I consider myself very successful to be able to acquire enough supplemental income to buy a house with cash. Other people might say that's nothing.


Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Atlantisatheart, one thing I can say about your post ... yours sounds the least daunting, lol   . Your storytelling abilities must be awesome, so congrats!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Atlantisatheart said:


> I sort of read most of this thread, although, I come to it late in the day, in both time zone and posts.
> 
> I'm 100k author, off and on, up and down either side for the last few years.
> 
> ...


If you're making 6 figures on a regular basis, I'd say you're doing something right. Keep it up!

Holy crap 200 books!!!


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

Atlantisatheart said:


> I sort of read most of this thread, although, I come to it late in the day, in both time zone and posts.
> 
> I'm 100k author, off and on, up and down either side for the last few years.
> 
> ...


I love this whole post, and I love the fact that you can admit to doing things wrong. But you obviously got one of the most important things right: writing engaging stories readers want to read. Oh, and doing it over and over again.

If what you're doing is working for you, I say more power to you!


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


In the area of Japan I lived in (and plan on returning to), you could get one for 30-50K.


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## Colin (Aug 6, 2011)

wheart said:


> Atlantisatheart, one thing I can say about your post ... yours sounds the least daunting, lol  . Your storytelling abilities must be awesome, so congrats!


And Atlantisatheart did it all without a single fussy book poodle promo.

Truly amazing!


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## lostagain (Feb 17, 2014)

TK aka BB said:


> I started publishing in 2013. I have the equivalent of 17 novel-length titles out there, I think. (All my short stories = 1 "novel." Several are tied up in 4-book mini-series that are very, very tightly linked, practically serials.) I broke 6-figures in 2015 (squeaker) and 2016 (better.) My covers aren't very good because I make them. I do that because every dang time I spend $5000+ on all new covers, my sales tank. So I persist.
> 
> Rosalind the OP, PBC, and Deanna Chase have excellent, excellent advice, and y'all should be heeding that advice with all your hearts. Anyone who isn't making 6-figs and wants to should be taking notes on those posts and figuring out to-do lists.
> 
> ...


Yes! I'm fortunate enough to hang out with dozens of 100K plus authors. I hit that number myself in 2015, and I can tell you what TK said is very true. Nobody is doing all of this, but every single one of those >100K authors is doing multiple things on this list. Even Atlantisatheart, whose story is compelling because we all love an underdog, is doing some of those things. I agree with Deanna, take this list and print it out or save it in a file. Figure out which things you can do, and then do them very well.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Colin said:


> And Atlantisatheart did it all without a single fussy book poodle promo.
> 
> Truly amazing!


 Yup, very impressive indeed!


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## Michelle Hughes (Dec 12, 2011)

My biggest year was $88,000.  I wrote my first menage MMMMF book, a novella that turned into four books.  Didn't edit.  Did my own cover.  And people seemed to like it.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

M M said:


> So nice to see you posting here again TK. More great advice. I got into GP early because of you, so a much belated thank you!


Was just thinking exactly this. TK/BB is *the* reason a bunch of us were able to go direct with Google before they closed to indie accounts.


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> In the area of Japan I lived in (and plan on returning to), you could get one for 30-50K.


That certainly changes the paradigm of how much you need to make from writing to live. Thanks for the info. What a crazy lifestyle change that would be.


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2017)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


There are quite a few parts of Texas where you can do the same. Even my 2000+ sf ranch style house was only $135k. $350k here would be a huge house and/or in one of the "rich" neighborhoods :-D


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


You can get a decent house for that where I live too. Ours was $78k but it was nearly brand new and included all the appliances. The reason for the cheapness is that no one wants to live here because it's rural Oklahoma.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Raymond Burton said:


> That certainly changes the paradigm of how much you need to make from writing to live. Thanks for the info. What a crazy lifestyle change that would be.


Yeah, it is a big change. But after I lived there for nine years, I've actually found American lifestyle to be far more stressful and can't wait to get back to Japan.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


Christ, I think the median around where I am is like $750k...


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

Laura Kelley said:


> You can get a decent house for that where I live too. Ours was $78k but it was nearly brand new and included all the appliances. The reason for the cheapness is that no one wants to live here because it's rural Oklahoma.


Wow. Oklahoma And Texas seem like beautiful places to live. Blows my mind that it's so affordable comparatively.

Perry, I wouldn't want to diverge off the topic of this post but that seems like an interesting topic - Why Japan would feel less stressful than North America. I always thought it was so "hard work" oriented over there.

Thanks for the input folks... it's making the snow bird option look very palatable one day


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## Paranormal Kitty (Jun 13, 2017)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow. Oklahoma And Texas seem like beautiful places to live. Blows my mind that it's so affordable comparatively.


Depends on which part, although Oklahoma as a whole has been going downhill due to the state government's mismanagement for the past several years. Definitely don't live here if you have kids you plan on sending to a public school. If you want to live somewhere beautiful near a lake, or in a city where you can actually have something to do besides drugs, it's going to cost more. If I ever get so lucky as to make 100k, I'm definitely moving to a city. It would be nice to see a movie or eat at a nice restaurant without driving an hour.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, depends on where in a state. I live in a city in Texas, couldn't buy a shack here for 60,000. I live in an apartment for a reason. Rent is high too though. I dream of living in a house just once. Keep on dreaming.


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## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow. Oklahoma And Texas seem like beautiful places to live. Blows my mind that it's so affordable comparatively.
> 
> Perry, I wouldn't want to diverge off the topic of this post but that seems like an interesting topic - Why Japan would feel less stressful than North America. I always thought it was so "hard work" oriented over there.
> 
> Thanks for the input folks... it's making the snow bird option look very palatable one day


Go to rural Minnesota (farm country) and you can buy a nice place with a yard for less than 60K. For 60K-100K you'll have plenty of choices. For 300K+ you can get yourself a palace.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> But after I lived there for nine years, I've actually found American lifestyle to be far more stressful and can't wait to get back to Japan.


I love Japan. I lived in Ina-shi, Nagano-ken for just a year. If I didn't have kids, I'd want to move back there. I miss it so much.


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

I live in SC. My boyfriend and I have a nice 3br brick home, older, but updated with granite countertops, appliances, etc. Large fenced in yard, one street over from the river, less than a five minute drive from the nice shopping/dining part of town, and a ten minute drive to the ocean. Our house cost less than $100k. While I'd love to live in a newer, larger place in a fancier neighborhood, our low cost of living is the main reason I'm able to write full time.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Perry Constantine said:


> Yeah, it is a big change. But after I lived there for nine years, I've actually found American lifestyle to be far more stressful and can't wait to get back to Japan.


I had the worst culture shock I've ever experienced in Japan, but that was over 30 years ago and it was almost the first place I lived abroad. I've lived in Prague for two of the three decades since and I can't imagine living anywhere else now. Cheap, gorgeous, walkable, with fantastic architecture, beer and music. Good, affordable public healthcare, great public transportation and over 65 you ride free. Inside Prague housing isn't cheap to buy, but it's not so bad to rent and in the countryside you can get a nice cottage with a bit of land for $60-$100,000. We were offered the opportunity to buy the state-owned apartment my husband's family moved into in the 60's just after the Revolution, so we only pay a few hundred dollars a month in coop fees and utilities.

People buy into this idea that making a lot of money frees you to do what you want. But keeping your expenses minimal has the same effect and you don't have to put yourself through the wringer to keep 'making it'.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Sarah Shaw said:


> I had the worst culture shock I've ever experienced in Japan, but that was over 30 years ago and it was almost the first place I lived abroad. I've lived in Prague for two of the three decades since and I can't imagine living anywhere else now. Cheap, gorgeous, walkable, with fantastic architecture, beer and music. Good, affordable public healthcare, great public transportation and over 65 you ride free. Inside Prague housing isn't cheap to buy, but it's not so bad to rent and in the countryside you can get a nice cottage with a bit of land for $60-$100,000. We were offered the opportunity to buy the state-owned apartment my husband's family moved into in the 60's just after the Revolution, so we only pay a few hundred dollars a month in coop fees and utilities.


Prague is gorgeous. I'd love to live in Lisbon though.


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

Lorri Moulton said:


> This is my quote of the day!


That hit a chord with me as well.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Raymond Burton said:


> Perry, I wouldn't want to diverge off the topic of this post but that seems like an interesting topic - Why Japan would feel less stressful than North America. I always thought it was so "hard work" oriented over there.


Well yeah, if you're living the life of a typical Japanese company employee, it's stressful. But if you're a writer working from home, you're not going to be in that situation. Plus, you don't have to worry about the stress of dealing with health insurance providers.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Nothing cheap about DC. I'd have to be at $200k+ for multiple years to consider quitting my day job. Family Health Insurance isn't cheap. Even a low-end house will set you back $300k, but once you own, the housing market appreciates very nicely.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Sarah Shaw said:


> People buy into this idea that making a lot of money frees you to do what you want. But keeping your expenses minimal has the same effect and you don't have to put yourself through the wringer to keep 'making it'.


This has been my entire secret. Live somewhere cheap and keep your life modest and you can be free on very little. I live an hour west of Baltimore and DC. It's just a little too far for most people to want to commute, so it's pretty cheap (not 60k cheap, but still pretty cheap), but everything you can dream of is an hour or less away. It's also gorgeous out here! And there are so many farms. *noms on cherries grown down the street* There are so many nice places to live if you don't need to be right in the center of the action.


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## SkyScribe (Aug 18, 2014)

JaclynDolamore said:


> This has been my entire secret. Live somewhere cheap and keep your life modest and you can be free on very little. I live an hour west of Baltimore and DC. It's just a little too far for most people to want to commute, so it's pretty cheap (not 60k cheap, but still pretty cheap), but everything you can dream of is an hour or less away. It's also gorgeous out here! And there are so many farms. *noms on cherries grown down the street* There are so many nice places to live if you don't need to be right in the center of the action.


Life choices do make a huge difference in how much you need to live. I actually know people who are able to get by entirely on very minimal sales.


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## kathrynoh (Oct 17, 2012)

Just to continue with this digression, I think you have to be careful with the whole idea of moving to a cheaper area. My mum lived in a very cheap area in rural Australia which provided a cheap living but when she got sick last year, the medical care in the area was abysmal. Other support services were pretty much so under-resourced that they may as well have been non-existent.

Of course, every area is different but we met a lot of people who'd sold up their lives in the city to make a "sea change" and all of them regretted it or at least wished they'd done more research first.

Japan is great but if I spend more than three months here the passive aggressiveness makes me want to punch people. And it has more busybodies getting up in your [crap] per capita than any other country in the world.

To tie this back to the original point, I've travelled and lived in places where the cost of living is next to nothing but I'd far rather live a minimalist lifestyle by choice and earn the big bucks than be forced to live that way.


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## MClayton (Nov 10, 2010)

Raymond Burton said:


> That hit a chord with me as well.


Me, too.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

kathrynoh said:


> Japan is great but if I spend more than three months here the passive aggressiveness makes me want to punch people. And it has more busybodies getting up in your [crap] per capita than any other country in the world.


When I was an ALT I had a little bit of that, but when I started teaching literature and moved to Kagoshima City, almost never had anyone being nosy. Not even my in-laws, who lived in the same building as us.

As for the passive aggressiveness, the Japanese have nothing on my mother's side of the family, so there's actually less of that.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Douglas Milewski said:


> Nothing cheap about DC. I'd have to be at $200k+ for multiple years to consider quitting my day job. Family Health Insurance isn't cheap. Even a low-end house will set you back $300k, but once you own, the housing market appreciates very nicely.


I don't know about DC itself, but northern Virginia is super selective about what housing areas are hot and which are dead. I had a condo in Loudoun County that I could not sell for the life of me, and the townhouses and condos near where my wife and I bought in Alexandria are rarely listed for more than a day without multiple contracts crashing in. It's hyper location sensitive around here.


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## Douglas Milewski (Jul 4, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> I don't know about DC itself, but northern Virginia is super selective about what housing areas are hot and which are dead. I had a condo in Loudoun County that I could not sell for the life of me, and the townhouses and condos near where my wife and I bought in Alexandria are rarely listed for more than a day without multiple contracts crashing in. It's hyper location sensitive around here.


Some places are evergreen expensive (hello, Georgetown), while others get trendy (such a Clarendon in the '90s), and others aren't much to talk about. Still, a rising tide lifts all boats, and even my first cheapo house in a "very questionable" area (just about the opposite of hot that you could get), at the bottom of the housing market, sold in one day, and made me a good profit when we relocated to a better school district.


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## Crystal_ (Aug 13, 2014)

Not everyone wants to live in a rural area.

Be careful counting on spending less. It can go very wrong if you have a medical problem or need to support a family member or put a kid through college. It's always good to watch your spending, but it's better to do it because you're saving money rather than because it's your only option.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Not everyone wants to live in a rural area.
> 
> Be careful counting on spending less. It can go very wrong if you have a medical problem or need to support a family member or put a kid through college. It's always good to watch your spending, but it's better to do it because you're saving money rather than because it's your only option.


You don't necessarily have to move out to the boonies. You can find places that are semi-urban with decent health care facilities.


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## Marti talbott (Apr 19, 2011)

I swore I'd never come back here, but if it helps... I have 44 novels, 2 discount price omnibus, and 5 permafree (4 first book in a series and 1 collection of 3 free books).

I've hit 100K and more a few times in my seven years with this little hobby. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way too, and suffered sharp painful drop-offs. One of which was moving from wide, to KU, and then back to wide. It was like starting all over.

Of course it is the story that sells. It is also the ability to keep the readers engaged from the first page to the last. The way to do that, I learned early on, is to make every book a mystery no matter the genre, and every end of chapter at cliff hanger. Basic stuff. 

There have been many changes in marketing and most of them not good for authors. Believe me, I've tried them all. Last week I got an email from a company that claimed it could make me a bestselling author by (them) enrolling my books in KU. Really? What a novel idea!?! Anyway, the world of marketing changes almost as fast at reader trends, so you just have to test them for yourself.  

Social media is time consuming, but can be rewarding. There are readers out there who love talking to an actual author. They'll help you promote if you let them. I pepper my promotion posts with funny and interesting shares, and run contests for free copies of my upcoming novel. I try not to promote my books often, just once in a while when a book is not selling

Best advice -- read everything you can find on hints and tricks for making your books sell better. Don't be afraid to change your cover art, your content, and your blurb as often as you need to make them better. If it ain't working...fix it. Some don't agree  with me, but your blurb should be a mini-mystery. Give readers a reason to want to know what happens. That's what sells books.

Marti Talbott, over and out.


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## Morgan Worth (May 6, 2017)

Crystal_ said:


> Not everyone wants to live in a rural area.
> 
> Be careful counting on spending less. It can go very wrong if you have a medical problem or need to support a family member or put a kid through college. It's always good to watch your spending, but it's better to do it because you're saving money rather than because it's your only option.


This. The same thing is true if your children have special talents or interests that are hard to nurture in a small town or more remote area. An hour drive to practice vs 15 minutes makes a big difference in your quality of life. Not that you _have_ to have your kids on that elite team or involved in that special-interest club, but it's another limitation that comes with living in certain areas.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

Morgan Worth said:


> This. The same thing is true if your children have special talents or interests that are hard to nurture in a small town or more remote area. An hour drive to practice vs 15 minutes makes a big difference in your quality of life. Not that you _have_ to have your kids on that elite team or involved in that special-interest club, but it's another limitation that comes with living in certain areas.


True. You don't want to live in the sticks, especially if you've still got kids at home. I like college towns of 25k - 40k that seem to have all the amenities of larger cities without the bustle or hustle.


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## KBaker (Feb 5, 2017)

Dpock said:


> True. You don't want to live in the sticks, especially if you've still got kids at home. I like college towns of 25k - 40k that seem to have all the amenities of larger cities without the bustle or hustle.


This is what type of area I currently live in (but don't own a house here). It has all the basic amenities here: good selection of restaurants, nice local businesses (even a bookstore!), hospital + various doctors, movie theater, and basic shopping. You can buy good 3br brick homes for 60-100k in good neighborhoods. 200k+ will you get you a fancy home. The downside, renting is expensive. I really like it and I'm an hour away from two larger cities if I want more to do. There's also a large lake for the outdoorsy people.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

Martitalbott said:


> I swore I'd never come back here, but if it helps... I have 44 novels, 2 discount price omnibus, and 5 permafree (4 first book in a series and 1 collection of 3 free books).
> 
> I've hit 100K and more a few times in my seven years with this little hobby. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way too, and suffered sharp painful drop-offs. One of which was moving from wide, to KU, and then back to wide. It was like starting all over.
> 
> ...


Thank you for attempting to get the thread back on track. I fear it's been permanently derailed, though.


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

Morgan Worth said:


> This. The same thing is true if your children have special talents or interests that are hard to nurture in a small town or more remote area. An hour drive to practice vs 15 minutes makes a big difference in your quality of life. Not that you _have_ to have your kids on that elite team or involved in that special-interest club, but it's another limitation that comes with living in certain areas.


It's always a give and take, right? As parents of two young children, my wife and I decided that we were more than happy to drive 30 minutes to an hour to do most of these things, if it means our kids can benefit from growing up in a small town. In the last two years, my oldest son has had exactly one school lockdown, and that was because a bull from a local farm got loose and was near the kids' playground. We know each and every teacher, teacher aid, and faculty member, and have a real voice in how the class is managed. That voice extends well beyond the classroom to the larger community as well. To us, the real question wasn't whether our kids _had_ to do those things, but if we are parents were willing to commute a little longer to make them happen. For us, we get the best of both worlds, and the extra commute is more than worth it.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Raymond Burton said:


> Wow... where in the world can I get a house for 60,000? They start at 350,000 in my neck of the woods.


Kingsville, Texas, about 30 minutes outside of Corpus. 60k will get you a very decent three bedroom. Actually, 50k will, if you're willing to put a little work into fixing it up. My part of Texas has a low cost of living. You get much more house for your money, but you're still close to the city.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> You don't necessarily have to move out to the boonies. You can find places that are semi-urban with decent health care facilities.


Kingsville is a decent sized town. It's not as big as Corpus, but it's not rural by any means. People would be surprised at the good deals they can find in real estate when they look around.


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## Raymond Burton (Apr 21, 2014)

anniejocoby said:


> Thank you for attempting to get the thread back on track. I fear it's been permanently derailed, though.


My apologies. I was really into reading the best practices of "What makes a 100K author?" and stated a question. I thought it would be just a quick reply. Probably should have made it a private message.... but thanks for all the great info on both discussions everyone


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Crystal_ said:


> Not everyone wants to live in a rural area.
> 
> Be careful counting on spending less. It can go very wrong if you have a medical problem or need to support a family member or put a kid through college. It's always good to watch your spending, but it's better to do it because you're saving money rather than because it's your only option.


It's also a matter of being responsible and including these things when you figure how much you need for savings. I've always been conservative. I'd never quit a job without a years savings in the bank and I won't quit until I buy my house outright no mortgage. In the end it's a matter of how you perceive the good life. I prefer living below my means and having a safety net so that I don't have to worry about the things you mentioned. The money is already there.


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## Morgan Worth (May 6, 2017)

Craig Andrews said:


> It's always a give and take, right? As parents of two young children, my wife and I decided that we were more than happy to drive 30 minutes to an hour to do most of these things, if it means our kids can benefit from growing up in a small town. In the last two years, my oldest son has had exactly one school lockdown, and that was because a bull from a local farm got loose and was near the kids' playground. We know each and every teacher, teacher aid, and faculty member, and have a real voice in how the class is managed. That voice extends well beyond the classroom to the larger community as well. To us, the real question wasn't whether our kids _had_ to do those things, but if we are parents were willing to commute a little longer to make them happen. For us, we get the best of both worlds, and the extra commute is more than worth it.


I get what you're saying, and you're right. There is give and take. But willingness isn't always enough, especially when you have more than one child, each with her own practice/ class schedule.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Raymond Burton said:


> My apologies. I was really into reading the best practices of "What makes a 100K author?" and stated a question. I thought it would be just a quick reply. Probably should have made it a private message.... but thanks for all the great info on both discussions everyone


How do you think I feel, lol? I mention I'm going to buy a 60k house and that derailed the thread. Not sure how this got to be a where to live debate. I know what I want. I live in a place where I can make it happen. I could move to a larger city any time I want. I choose to live where I do because it's entirely doable to save my royalties and buy my house in very little time. 
I edited to say my main point in that post is that you don't necessarily have to make 100k to be successful. I know people who make that and they don't have as much cash on hand as I do. To a certain point, it's about what you spend, not what you earn, which is not to say I don't have my sprees.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

katrina46 said:


> How do you think I feel, lol? I mention I'm going to buy a 60k house and that derailed the thread. Not sure how this got to be a where to live debate. I know what I want. I live in a place where I can make it happen. I could move to a larger city any time I want. I choose to live where I do because it's entirely doable to save my royalties and buy my house in very little time.
> I edited to say my main point in that post is that you don't necessarily have to make 100k to be successful. I know people who make that and they don't have as much cash on hand as I do. To a certain point, it's about what you spend, not what you earn, which is not to say I don't have my sprees.


It's certainly a good point, though. I mean, my partner and I will be buying a house next year for much more than $60k, but in comparison to the rest of my family, we're easily the lowest spending. My cousin worked in the oil industry for 14 years and could have literally set himself up 4 or 5 times over, but he blew all the money on basically nothing. Now that the industry is basically gone, he's got sizable debts. Eye watering amounts. When they moved back from Dubai, they spent $40k moving their dogs back. I love dogs, but _come on_. Forty. Grand.

That mining boom was really very interesting, because you basically had a lot of under-educated people suddenly earning $300k a year. That exact demographic now has the greatest mortgage stress in the country, because everyone acted like it was this never ending avalanche of money. I think the only people who did really well in the long run were the people who sold these miners jetskis and new cars. I'm not saying I would do better in their situation, because who really knows, but it really shows how easily money can be wasted, and it certainly shows how the tides can turn.

Looking at the catastrophic financial f*ck-up my cousin has gotten into, I've promised myself that if writing became a big earner for me, I wouldn't leave my job until I had cleared as many of my debts as possible. And even then, I wouldn't allow myself to spend more than say, 15% above my current salary now. I would be squirreling away that stuff by any means necessary.


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

RightHoJeeves said:


> It's certainly a good point, though. I mean, my partner and I will be buying a house next year for much more than $60k, but in comparison to the rest of my family, we're easily the lowest spending. My cousin worked in the oil industry for 14 years and could have literally set himself up 4 or 5 times over, but he blew all the money on basically nothing. Now that the industry is basically gone, he's got sizable debts. Eye watering amounts. When they moved back from Dubai, they spent $40k moving their dogs back. I love dogs, but _come on_. Forty. Grand.
> 
> That mining boom was really very interesting, because you basically had a lot of under-educated people suddenly earning $300k a year. That exact demographic now has the greatest mortgage stress in the country, because everyone acted like it was this never ending avalanche of money. I think the only people who did really well in the long run were the people who sold these miners jetskis and new cars. I'm not saying I would do better in their situation, because who really knows, but it really shows how easily money can be wasted, and it certainly shows how the tides can turn.
> 
> Looking at the catastrophic financial f*ck-up my cousin has gotten into, I've promised myself that if writing became a big earner for me, I wouldn't leave my job until I had cleared as many of my debts as possible. And even then, I wouldn't allow myself to spend more than say, 15% above my current salary now. I would be squirreling away that stuff by any means necessary.


I was in Perth for a mining boom quite a bit for those gold rush years doing FIFO. Landlords charging $2.5K A WEEK rent for some crappy 3 bedroom brick veneer house and getting it. Damn it was a good time if one could save.

And in those quiet down times at the end of the working week, I used to fantasize about making six figures a year from writing fiction. But I never did. So to get back to the OP question, what makes 100 k author, my answer would be this. Someone who writes and writes consistently. Because without those words down on a page, you might as well be dreaming.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

kusanagi said:


> I was in Perth for a mining boom quite a bit for those gold rush years doing FIFO. Landlords charging $2.5K A WEEK rent for some crappy 3 bedroom brick veneer house and getting it. Damn it was a good time if one could save.
> 
> And in those quiet down times at the end of the working week, I used to fantasize about making six figures a year from writing fiction. But I never did. So to get back to the OP question, what makes 100 k author, my answer would be this. Someone who writes and writes consistently. Because without those words down on a page, you might as well be dreaming.


Booms don't last. What goes up must come down. Enter additional metaphors if you wish.

I've seen many writers sell well and then go back to nothing. The trick is to sell consistently. IMO that's what defines a career. That's what I want: selling consistently. I'm interested in lifting the troughs between releases and promos. Then the occasional Bookbub/new release spike is gravy.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> Booms don't last. What goes up must come down. Enter additional metaphors if you wish.


That's sort of why I raise my eyebrows when people talk about the "good old days". I would rather build a career in a more stable and mature market then a gold rush type market.


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

RightHoJeeves said:


> That's sort of why I raise my eyebrows when people talk about the "good old days". I would rather build a career in a more stable and mature market then a gold rush type market.


I totally agree. It was only good if you saved most of it, which of course, only a handful did. Don't miss the good old days one bloody bit.


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> Booms don't last. What goes up must come down. Enter additional metaphors if you wish.
> 
> I've seen many writers sell well and then go back to nothing. The trick is to sell consistently. IMO that's what defines a career. That's what I want: selling consistently. I'm interested in lifting the troughs between releases and promos. Then the occasional Bookbub/new release spike is gravy.


Well since starting writing in November that's what I'm chasing - consistency. With a family, don't have any other choice not to. I'm almost finished with book 2 of my trilogy, going to be releasing close together. And gravy over hot chips - yeah that's where it's at &#128513;


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## M T McGuire (Dec 6, 2010)

Congrats on buying a house, I'd be happy if I could make enough in a year to pay for production on the next book! For what it's worth, I wonder if part of the success thing is about personality. 

Somewhat naively, I always thought that if I liked my books other people would. That's not how it's worked out. I know I've gone about it the wrong way, you know how it is right? When you start out, you decide that you'd like to write the kind of book you always wanted to read that didn't exist yet. But what you forget is that by din't of being an author you're already several bricks short of a hod and what floats your boat has about as much appeal to the rest of the reading public as taking a lava shower! So it is that I have learned that there's a very good reason why the books I always wanted to read don't exist. And that reason is because nobody else actually wants to read them! Mwhahahahargh! So yeh, 

THING 1, Accept it's unlikely you're an outlier. There has to be at least a cursory nod to market tropes when you write. 

Over the 8 years I've been writing books, it's become abundantly clear to me that if a person enjoys - if that's the right word - the levels of demand upon their time and emotional energy that I do, trying to write stuff at anything approaching a sensible rate of output is extremely difficult. The more I see of this, the more I realise literary success is about two things, being a reasonably prolific author in the first place and time; time free to spend writing, time to collect a thought or the capacity to spend time awake while others sleep. That is not my life. So,

THING 2, you must be time rich or exceptionally good at making time, sleep like Margaret Thatcher (4 hours a night) and be extremely emotionally stable and/or emotionally robust. 

Another aspect I've noticed is that a lot of the folks doing well are extremely well organised, either with their marketing or their writing or both. So I think if you're the kind of person who spends three quarters of each day looking for your keys, glasses, phone, trying to remember your own name etc, you're probably stuffed or at least going to have to work harder. So that's the third thing.

THING 3, six figure authors are ruthlessly efficient with their time.

And there is a fourth thing. They react to what happens. So, again, that time and efficiency thing, they can move swiftly when the market changes, limiting any negative impact on their careers and sales. This is probably the only bit of it I can do, adjust, except it takes me too long, even if I'm ahead of the curve reacting.

THING 4, flexibility and pragmatism - they can change direction easily. 

Having said all of that, though I know my life circumstances render a career pretty much dead in the water it seems that hope springs eternal. Maybe we're all like that. I will still keep trying and keep on writing because I have to, I'm an authorholic, completely addicted, and I really can't stop. But I will probably step back from the marketing for a while - or at least slow it down - because I seem to have stuffed it up a bit. Quite a lot, actually. It's not like I don't know what I'm doing. I was a marketing manager with a household name here in the UK. But I've managed to build a base of entirely the wrong customers. If I was still a marketing manager, I'd sack me. 

So, yeh, for my own sanity, it's probably best I write and send out a mailing once a month, to remind the folks on my mailing list who I am more than anything. And I'll spend the rest of the time I have to myself writing the kind of books I enjoy.

My ambition for my writing is simply to earn enough from the books I have on sale to be able to produce another one. I haven't. But it seems to me that the trick is to just keep on keeping on and quietly dropping books out there into the void. For a while I did think it was working, that I was quietly building up a following and keeping sales steady but that stopped three months ago. But in my heart of hearts, I still keep hoping I will prove everyone wrong, and earn some money from my writing, despite my glacial speed of output and unsellable books!

Sorry that was a ramble.

Cheers

MTM


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

RightHoJeeves said:


> It's certainly a good point, though. I mean, my partner and I will be buying a house next year for much more than $60k, but in comparison to the rest of my family, we're easily the lowest spending. My cousin worked in the oil industry for 14 years and could have literally set himself up 4 or 5 times over, but he blew all the money on basically nothing. Now that the industry is basically gone, he's got sizable debts. Eye watering amounts. When they moved back from Dubai, they spent $40k moving their dogs back. I love dogs, but _come on_. Forty. Grand.
> 
> That mining boom was really very interesting, because you basically had a lot of under-educated people suddenly earning $300k a year. That exact demographic now has the greatest mortgage stress in the country, because everyone acted like it was this never ending avalanche of money. I think the only people who did really well in the long run were the people who sold these miners jetskis and new cars. I'm not saying I would do better in their situation, because who really knows, but it really shows how easily money can be wasted, and it certainly shows how the tides can turn.
> 
> Looking at the catastrophic financial f*ck-up my cousin has gotten into, I've promised myself that if writing became a big earner for me, I wouldn't leave my job until I had cleared as many of my debts as possible. And even then, I wouldn't allow myself to spend more than say, 15% above my current salary now. I would be squirreling away that stuff by any means necessary.


I worked in the oil business for 15 years. Every two years or so I'd get laid off. When I did work I got tons of overtime. Some weeks I'd take home close to 2k. These youngs kids would come in and buy 60k pickup trucks and 700 dollar phones. I'd always tell them to save because there's always a slow time coming. My last job it got bad and you would literally see the repo man once a week coming for someone's truck. The oil is a lot like ebooks. You've got to save. The algos will change. The payout system in KU will change. Even those who do usually sell consistently have bad months. I was earning four figures in erotica in KU1. I wasn't devastated with KU2 because I never counted on that gravy train lasting. The next train I catch will eventually stop rolling, too. If you don't save, then spend wisely on a house, or start up cost for another business. That's my opinion anyway.


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## The Wyoming Kid (Jun 18, 2017)

*First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track? I don't know how you could do that, but there's a big multi-page droop filled with posts about children in small towns and the price of real estate. It's hard to wade through all that, especially since the thread seemed so dynamic up to that point.

Thanks in advance.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> *First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track? I don't know how you could do that, but there's a big multi-page droop filled with posts about children in small towns and the price of real estate. It's hard to wade through all that, especially since the thread seemed so dynamic up to that point.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


This.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> *First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track?


Welcome to Kboards.  This is how it goes around here - people veer off track all the time. Best way to haul things back is to post something relevant yourself. I would, but I'm well short of the price of entry to this thread. I'm just here with my clipboard, taking notes. But all that real-estate talk actually derives from a hugely relevant point: you don't need to earn huge bucks if your expenses are low. That's a very valuable point to make, I'd say (even if it meandered about a bit).


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Welcome to Kboards.  This is how it goes around here - people veer off track all the time. Best way to haul things back is to post something relevant yourself. I would, but I'm well short of the price of entry to this thread. I'm just here with my clipboard, taking notes. But all that real-estate talk actually derives from a hugely relevant point: you don't need to earn huge bucks if your expenses are low. That's a very valuable point to make, I'd say (even if it meandered about a bit).


I thought it was relevant. Thank you.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> First-time poster to moderator: can we get the thread back on track?


This is a common misperception on the KDP forums, too. A thread doesn't belong to the original poster but to the group to which he or she is posting. Many threads evolve, and I think that's a good thing. If you don't like the direction it's taking, you can always stop reading it.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> *First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track? I don't know how you could do that, but there's a big multi-page droop filled with posts about children in small towns and the price of real estate. It's hard to wade through all that, especially since the thread seemed so dynamic up to that point.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


A lot of people are not going to make 100k. Suggesting ways in which they can still have financial freedom from publishing is not necessarily irrelevant.


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## [email protected] (Mar 8, 2015)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> *First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track? I don't know how you could do that, but there's a big multi-page droop filled with posts about children in small towns and the price of real estate. It's hard to wade through all that, especially since the thread seemed so dynamic up to that point.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I find both topics interesting.

Would it maybe be ideal if the "housing/living within your means" posts were split off into their own thread? I guess, but it's not the end of the world if conversations drift, either.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Of course, now the conversation has drifted to be a discussion about conversation drift so ...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

notjohn said:


> This is a common misperception on the KDP forums, too. A thread doesn't belong to the original poster but to the group to which he or she is posting. Many threads evolve, and I think that's a good thing. If you don't like the direction it's taking, you can always stop reading it.


Or post a comment specifically related to the original post to help steer it back to whatever direction you want it to go in. Topic drift happens. It's what the internet was built for, along with cat videos, porn, and memes. 

Real estate and children and so forth are partly related to being a successful author. The less money you need to obligate to living expenses, family, insurance, etc. is more money you theoretically have for business expenses such as covers, editing, advertising, etc. And having fewer stresses external to publishing can help in giving an author more free headspace to create and run that business.

I'm willing to bet many $100k+ authors have a stable life outside publishing. Finances under some control, stable family life, decent health, etc.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

Jim Johnson said:


> Or post a comment specifically related to the original post to help steer it back to whatever direction you want it to go in. Topic drift happens. It's what the internet was built for, along with cat videos, porn, and memes.
> 
> Real estate and children and so forth are partly related to being a successful author. The less money you need to obligate to living expenses, family, insurance, etc. is more money you theoretically have for business expenses such as covers, editing, advertising, etc. And having fewer stresses external to publishing can help in giving an author more free headspace to create and run that business.
> 
> I'm willing to bet many $100k+ authors have a stable life outside publishing. Finances under some control, stable family life, decent health, etc.


That's a very good point. Not all, but a lot of authors spend tons on the business end, so 100k earnings isn't always 100k profit. I don't make anywhere near that, but I still set aside 40% taxes because my income combined with my day job puts me into the higher tax bracket. I don't actually wind up paying in 40%. More like 30%, but I keep it there until I do taxes just to make sure I'm covered.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I've seen many writers sell well and then go back to nothing. The trick is to sell consistently. IMO that's what defines a career. That's what I want: selling consistently. I'm interested in lifting the troughs between releases and promos. Then the occasional Bookbub/new release spike is gravy.


This. I think there are some things I could do to crack the 100k ceiling this year, but I always strive for slow steady growth over big jumps in income.

My goal this year is 84k--12k more than last year. I have some plans to make that amount, and backup plans in case those fall through, and back-up-back-up plans, and back-ups for that ... I could do all those things in one year, but then I won't have them in my bag of tricks for NEXT year, and each time you use a trick (box set for 99-cents with BookBub for instance--not talking anything that violates TOS or personal ethics) it's effectiveness declines. Also, implementation would take me away from my already slow, slow, slow release schedule.


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## Dpock (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wyoming Kid said:


> *First-time poster to moderator*: can we get the thread back on track? I don't know how you could do that, but there's a big multi-page droop filled with posts about children in small towns and the price of real estate. It's hard to wade through all that, especially since the thread seemed so dynamic up to that point.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The original topic was pretty much thrashed out in the first fifteen pages or so and offers plenty of insights to newbies or veterans. The current drift should probably have its own thread because, simply put, it's so interesting to learn the various ways people are getting on around the world. No matter how much I make, I'd like to keep as much of it as I can (uncertain times, etc.).


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

C. Gockel said:


> This. I think there are some things I could do to crack the 100k ceiling this year, but I always strive for slow steady growth over big jumps in income.
> 
> My goal this year is 84k--12k more than last year. I have some plans to make that amount, and backup plans in case those fall through, and back-up-back-up plans, and back-ups for that ... I could do all those things in one year, but then I won't have them in my bag of tricks for NEXT year, and each time you use a trick (box set for 99-cents with BookBub for instance--not talking anything that violates TOS or personal ethics) it's effectiveness declines. Also, implementation would take me away from my already slow, slow, slow release schedule.


I stopped churning as they call it. I have two romance pen names to keep up with and my goal is to release well edited books that make people want to read my back list. This takes time. Some can edit fast, I can't and I don't pay someone to do it for me, so it takes time. This means I'll have good and not as good months, but I try to look at the overall earnings for the year. It goes against what a lot people would suggest, but it works for me.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> I have two romance pen names to keep up with and my goal is to release well edited books that make people want to read my back list.


This does work. I had a 99-cent sale on my urban fantasy I Bring the Fire box set this year. I sold less than last year, but I made more money on the tail ... people liked my work enough that they hopped genres and read my sci-fi series that didn't exist in 2016 when I did my USA Today run.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

M T McGuire said:


> Congrats on buying a house, I'd be happy if I could make enough in a year to pay for production on the next book! For what it's worth, I wonder if part of the success thing is about personality.
> 
> Somewhat naively, I always thought that if I liked my books other people would. That's not how it's worked out. I know I've gone about it the wrong way, you know how it is right? When you start out, you decide that you'd like to write the kind of book you always wanted to read that didn't exist yet. But what you forget is that by din't of being an author you're already several bricks short of a hod and what floats your boat has about as much appeal to the rest of the reading public as taking a lava shower! So it is that I have learned that there's a very good reason why the books I always wanted to read don't exist. And that reason is because nobody else actually wants to read them! Mwhahahahargh! So yeh,
> 
> ...


I love every word of this post. "Authorholic". Love it.


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## CynthiaClay (Mar 17, 2017)

anniejocoby said:


> Now, I've managed to do reasonably well without advertising, thus far, with my legal thriller series.


Are you a lawyer? My fear is one needs to be a lawyer to write believable legal thrillers. If you aren't a lawyer how do you manage making the legal stuff veritable?


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

BWFoster78 said:


> Of course, now the conversation has drifted to be a discussion about conversation drift so ...


Boom tish!


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

CynthiaClay said:


> Are you a lawyer? My fear is one needs to be a lawyer to write believable legal thrillers. If you aren't a lawyer how do you manage making the legal stuff veritable?


Yeah, I was, for 10 years. I worked for the Public Defender's Office and in private practice.


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## katrina46 (May 23, 2014)

kusanagi said:


> Boom tish!


Kboards is not just a forum. It's a community. We do occasionally discuss personal motivations and aspirations in these threads. Some people have suggested they find both topics useful and somewhat related to one another.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

PeanutButterCracker,

Yesterday I marathoned your entire '



' and '



' tutorial videos and WOW!

To have done these time-consuming and extensively detailed videos blows me away, especially since you're offering them up for FREE! Even though you explained in the first video why you did so, let me just say, it's amazingly generous of you and I want to personally thank you, and wanted to post here to make sure others know about them and watch them as well.

These videos are perfect for the theme of this thread because for those who want to know the step-by-steps (with quantified data!) of what a $100+k author did/is doing--to not only make $100+k income but to continually do so year after year--you'll want to watch these videos. Authors who write in ANY genre can take away pearls from these (it's not only for romance/erotic romance authors) even if we can't implement all of the tidbits 

These videos are as valuable as Chris Fox's. BOTH of these authors' videos should be linked on this pinned thread on Kboards under the 'Useful Threads for authors' section!


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

katrina46 said:


> Kboards is not just a forum. It's a community. We do occasionally discuss personal motivations and aspirations in these threads. Some people have suggested they find both topics useful and somewhat related to one another.


Heh, I agree totally, two sides of the same coin and all that. I was being a little humourous since I also joined in enthusiastically with the thread detour a page or two back.


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## Craig Andrews (Apr 14, 2013)

wheart said:


> PeanutButterCracker,
> 
> Yesterday I marathoned your entire '
> 
> ...


Nice! Thanks for sharing! I'm three videos in and there's a lot of useful information here -- and I love her straight forward presenting style.


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## wheart (May 26, 2016)

Craig Andrews said:


> Nice! Thanks for sharing! I'm three videos in and there's a lot of useful information here -- and I love her straight forward presenting style.


LOL, yeah, Anniejacoby will probably crack up listening to them, since she enjoyed PBC's posting style 

My hubby is writing SF/dystopian (while still working a full-time job) and I told him he needs to watch these, so I'm gonna watch them again with him over the this weekend


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## Wayne Stinnett (Feb 5, 2014)

BWFoster78 said:


> Of course, now the conversation has drifted to be a discussion about conversation drift so ...












Wait...what? Oh, you said conversation drift. My bad.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Wayne Stinnett said:


> Wait...what? Oh, you said conversation drift. My bad.


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## kusanagi (Jan 27, 2017)

Jeff Tanyard said:


> Someone say "drift"?


Brap brap brap! Wait! Did someone say Galactic Drift? I'm positive there's a 100k in there somewhere...


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Back on topic! BACK ON TOPIC!


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