# Passive Voice: Please Help Me Pay My Wonderful Authors the Royalties Owed Them!



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

I've been following this discussion today and don't think I've seen it posted here. A small press owner has not paid royalties due and is crowdfunding the payments.

NOTE: It involves a KB member and does push a lot of emotional buttons. I hope we can discuss it civilly.

http://www.thepassivevoice.com/03/2014/please-help-me-pay-my-wonderful-authors-the-royalties-owed-them/


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

No good can come from this thread, especially after having read some of the responses. Urgh, people.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

How is this much different from what Dorchester did?

Jana, former Dorchester author who will never see payment


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Yeah, not going to comment about Vera.

But any business-relationship carries risks.
Stuff like this puts the "self" into "self-publishing".


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## S. Elliot Brandis (Dec 9, 2013)

Surely what she did is illegal?


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## KCHawkings (Jul 20, 2011)

I agree that no good can come from this thread. 

What she did was wrong, no doubt about it, and I don't think an IndieGoGo campaign is necessarily the best way to go about fixing it. But she's trying, and I know that doesn't excuse what she did, but the people attacking in that other thread, who aren't directly involved and don't know all the details, aren't making things better. I don't want to see that over here.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

I won't comment on the specifics. All I will do is share some very valuable advice I got a long time ago from my old Kirby distributor.

Pay your people first. Without your people, you have no business.
Pay your bills second. You have to keep the lights on so you can run your business.
Pay yourself last. If you've done your job, there is something left over for you.

You do this, you NEVER get in trouble. I've lived by this ever since I started publishing.


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## Pnjw (Apr 24, 2011)

How can no good come from this thread? I think awareness can come from this. Both to writers so they understand the inherent risks of signing with any publisher and with small publishers going into business. There are more than a handful of small publishers now a days. If anyone is going to sign with them they should be asking if there are escrow accounts for author payments, how audits are handled, what happens if the publisher becomes ill or otherwise unattainable? Who will step in and take care of business. 

For my part, I see no excuse for authors not getting paid in any situation. Ever. That money belongs to the authors and should be paid first no matter what.


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## Carol (was Dara) (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm not comfortable with publically raking a fellow KBer over the coals. I think Vera's already received lots of advice. As I said on Passive Voice, she needs to:



> (a) Stop explaining/excusing your actions. Simply say "During a time of prolonged stress, I messed up. I put money that should've been ear-marked for my authors to personal use. This was my poor judgment and the responsibility to repay the debt is solely mine.
> 
> (b) Sit down, either alone or with an accountant, and work out a monthly payment plan, whereby each of your authors will received $10 monthly for X number of years, until the debt is repaid. This is a slower but more honorable solution than crowdsourcing, which only pushes the debt onto others.
> 
> (c) Shut down your press, except for your own titles and public domain works. I know this is painful to hear but no matter how forgiving the authors willing to stick with you, continuing to act as their publisher only increases the debt and digs you in deeper.


Beyond that, I don't think public dogpiling is going to help the situation.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> How is this much different from what Dorchester did?
> 
> Jana, former Dorchester author who will never see payment


The difference is that no one was online friends with Dorchester, whereas people are online friends with Vera. Vera has gone through a lot in her personal life, so a lot of folks have a hard time separating the person from the business. A lot of people don't want to pile on when she's at least trying to come up with a solution, albeit IMO a wrong one.

From my perspective, this is important information. I know folks who have been on KB a long time will have difficulty with anything remotely bashing or attacking Vera in any form. Those people are free to donate to Vera's fundraiser. Likewise, those who want to support Vera's authors without giving the money to Vera can feel free to paypal $20 to an author and cc Vera and say a donation to cover royalties.

For the rest of us who feel that this is a wrong solution, it's important that we also have the space to discuss it. This is a major issue for authors in general: being paid. It needs to be discussed. It's no different than when ...Ridan? what that the name? ...ran into trouble.

tl;dr It's the same, but people like Vera as a person.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I won't comment on the specifics. All I will do is share some very valuable advice I got a long time ago from my old Kirby distributor.
> 
> Pay your people first. Without your people, you have no business.
> Pay your bills second. You have to keep the lights on so you can run your business.
> ...


This is good advice for self-publishers, too. Nearly all of us have people who do work for us. We need to pay those folks. Sure, sometimes you gotta say "I can't pay you until the end of the money when Amazon pays me", but there's a difference between taking 3 weeks to pay for a cover and three months/years/decades.

If anyone takes 3 decades to pay off a cover, it had better be a fabulous cover that makes toast and gives foot massages


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## phildukephd (Jan 6, 2013)

The problems this person relates do not legally justify her actions. IMO the thing to so would be to declare bankruptcy, then all creditors would be paid off to the extent possible, according to the law. This person should contact a good attorney ASAP, and do as suggested.. Otherwise she might possibly be charged with a crime, such as conceivably fraud or theft after trust?

*Certain questions arise-just how much money are we talking about here? And, what assurance is there that any donations will go to the authors? *

A system needs to be set up so that donations go into an account this person cannot access. Without that, I doubt there will be many donations.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Dara England said:


> I'm not comfortable with publically raking a fellow KBer over the coals. I think Vera's already received lots of advice. As I said on Passive Voice, she needs to:


I really like your suggestions for just about anyone in this situation, either personally or a bigger corporation. If I were owed money, I'd be happy getting a payment every few months of even a little, because that tells me the money owed me is trying to be paid.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Krista D. Ball said:


> This is good advice for self-publishers, too. Nearly all of us have people who do work for us. We need to pay those folks. Sure, sometimes you gotta say "I can't pay you until the end of the money when Amazon pays me", but there's a difference between taking 3 weeks to pay for a cover and three months/years/decades.


Just talking about general business practices, I think part of the problem is the notion that books remain on sale forever, and therefore people don't really stop and think about profit/loss and their business expenses. My business is built on recovering my expenses in 90 days. That is how I budget projects. Because I need to turn my money over in order to pay for the next project. Where I think a lot of people get in trouble is that they don't take into account how LONG it will take to recover expenses. "My book will be on sale forever!" But you don't have forever to pay people.

And what happens is that when we forget to account for those business expenses, all of those "royalty" payments than come in from Amazon and such get treated as free money. I've seen this happen so many times. How many times have we seen an author run a Kickstarter to pay for their next book, even though they have five or six books already published? And you ask them what happened to the money they made on the other five books and it is already gone. That money got spent as soon as it came in on other things, and nothing was put aside to pay business expenses and now they want others to pay for their next book.


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## sstroble (Dec 16, 2013)

Musicians, songwriters, and others not getting paid their royalties also happens in the music business. The link painted a sad tale for the publisher; have to wonder how severely the authors were affected?


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> And what happens is that when we forget to account for those business expenses, all of those "royalty" payments than come in from Amazon and such get treated as free money. I've seen this happen so many times. How many times have we seen an author run a Kickstarter to pay for their next book, even though they have five or six books already published? And you ask them what happened to the money they made on the other five books and it is already gone. That money got spent as soon as it came in on other things, and nothing was put aside to pay business expenses and now they want others to pay for their next book.


I was talking about this earlier today. Right now, all of my royalties go into my general bank account and it's getting complicated because I forget what money is earmarked for what, etc. One of my goals is to get another account just for my royalties so that I can make sure I always have money for additional projects coming out of the royalty pool.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

A discussion would be helpful for all authors. In a changing market--some may not pay you. More than ever an author needs to be a savvy businessperson. We all learn from things like this.   You can be scammed. A good publisher would pay their people FIRST.


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

phildukephd said:


> The problems this person relates do not legally justify her actions. IMO the thing to so would be to declare bankruptcy, then all creditors would be paid off to the extent possible, according to the law. This person should contact a good attorney ASAP, and do as suggested.. Otherwise she might possibly be charged with a crime, such as conceivably fraud or theft after trust?


It would be the third bankruptcy, which I can only guess is more complicated than than #1 or 2. Those unpaid would have to press charges for their to be criminal action, surely. I feel for them, but after a year or so of no royalties being paid, why would you continue on with that press for more years?



> A system needs to be set up so that donations go into an account this person cannot access. Without that, I doubt there will be many donations.


A third party would certainly put people more at ease.


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## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

Publishing is a tough business. Tougher now than ever before. With no more barriers to entry, there's no way I'd go back to traditional again. Been there, done that. I hope whoever is owed money eventually gets paid.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I greatly appreciate this thread. It's like a splash of ice cold water to my face.

I am a publisher who only publishes my own works. Because of that, all of my royalties are deposited into my checking account. I don't get a lot of money each month, but it's a nice boost that I can use to grab dinner and see a movie. Cool beans.

I knew before, but this situation reiterates it for me; I have filed and pay my taxes yet I still didn't think of this as a serious enough business to warrant its own banking account. Now I think that I will need to set one up, just to keep business expenses separate from my personal expenses. We aren't talking about much money; it's more of a frame of mind, I think.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

There's a lesson here for those who just publish ourselves, too.

I was so thrilled with my sales the first year that I merrily spent the lot. Then tax time came around. Doh!
I ended up having to scrape up the taxes I owed on that, including my credit line for which I then have to pay interest. Dumb move.

So now I have a separate account and as soon as the funds arrive, I transfer the necessary percentage to a separate account.
I'm sure there are fancier ways of managing that, but I'm a small fish. For now, it lets me sleep at night.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I greatly appreciate this thread. It's like a splash of ice cold water to my face.
> 
> I am a publisher who only publishes my own works. Because of that, all of my royalties are deposited into my checking account. I don't get a lot of money each month, but it's a nice boost that I can use to grab dinner and see a movie. Cool beans.
> 
> I knew before, but this situation reiterates it for me; I have filed and pay my taxes yet I still didn't think of this as a serious enough business to warrant its own banking account. Now I think that I will need to set one up, just to keep business expenses separate from my personal expenses. We aren't talking about much money; it's more of a frame of mind, I think.


It's not much money now, but it could be some day.

And . . if you're running a business, you should do it in a 'businesslike manner'. Separate accounts -- checking, credit -- are a good idea. Makes it nice and clean and, from a tax standpoint, if there's any challenge to whether it really IS a business - rather than a hobby -- these sorts of things help.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Quiss said:


> There's a lesson here for those who just publish ourselves, too.
> 
> I was so thrilled with my sales the first year that I merrily spent the lot. Then tax time came around. Doh!
> I ended up having to scrape up the taxes I owed on that, including my credit line for which I then have to pay interest. Dumb move.
> ...


I'm luck in that I have a semi-day job, so I asked them to take out a larger chunk for taxes. I overestimated and, as it turned out, I ended up being bang on by the end of the year!

I also have a bank account for taxes whereby whenever I have a bumper month, I put aside a specific amount via CRA advice so that I have at least the extra buffer. I don't normally have $1000+ months, but the couple times that happened, it was good to have the extra information to know what to put aside.

If I started to make a huge amount, or left the semi-day job, I'd set up an account whereby I could pay in monthly (they have that up here; not sure about other places). That way, my taxes would be just another bill I paid monthly (and then, hopefully, didn't have to repay annually!)


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## Gone 9/21/18 (Dec 11, 2008)

Krista D. Ball said:


> Sure, sometimes you gotta say "I can't pay you until the end of the money when Amazon pays me", but there's a difference between taking 3 weeks to pay for a cover and three months/years/decades.


Maybe I'm the only one, but I think this is wrong also. If I contract with someone for a service, I should _know _that I'm able to pay,_ i.e._, have that money available when I do the contract. Purchasing something from someone and telling them they have to wait until you have it is exactly how you get into the kind of situation this thread is discussing - you count on money coming in at some future time, something bad happens in your life and you need the money for that instead, and you don't pay any bill you can let slide. (I worked for a bankruptcy attorney for 7 years and saw it all.)

As to the OP situation, I don't think anyone in the PV blog is being too harsh. I come from families of alcoholics, and this is the kind of self-justification that goes along with addiction. I only read maybe a third of the comments, but if I understand correctly, she's been through bankruptcy before, has had people raise money for her before (and spent it all on herself), and is still making excuses and expecting others to pay her debts. Maybe this is like the addicts who have to hit bottom and face up to the problem before they can get well. If so, she's a long way from wellness.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

It might have been smarter to do a campaign to ask help with money to fund those crises she went through, rather than take the money from the authors. I know I would have contributed a few dollars to help her, and I'm sure a lot of other people would have done the same.

She has my empathy though, it must be a desperate situation.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

A desperate situation she brought on herself.

And she DID do a campaign to help out with some of the crises. Many years ago.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Krista D. Ball said:


> The difference is that no one was online friends with Dorchester, whereas people are online friends with Vera. Vera has gone through a lot in her personal life, so a lot of folks have a hard time separating the person from the business.


And that's exactly the problem - separating the personal from the business.

The bottom line is business was handled incorrectly. When money comes in, you pay your authors first, just like Julie said. You don't use other people's hard work to subsidize your own problems. I'm not diminishing what she's been through, but what if her authors are in an even worse position and now they're also cash poor?

There is no easy solution here. You can't just create money, and I doubt many will be willing to donate to someone who has already mismanaged other people funds, regardless of how good an explanation there may be for it. Now, if the fund was set up to go directly to the authors, I'd be the first one to contribute as I have been in that seat before. And it's no fun.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Jana DeLeon said:


> And that's exactly the problem - separating the personal from the business.
> 
> The bottom line is business was handled incorrectly. When money comes in, you pay your authors first, just like Julie said. You don't use other people's hard work to subsidize your own problems. I'm not diminishing what she's been through, but what if her authors are in an even worse position and now they're also cash poor?
> 
> There is no easy solution here. You can't just create money, and I doubt many will be willing to donate to someone who has already mismanaged other people funds, regardless of how good an explanation there may be for it. Now, if the fund was set up to go directly to the authors, I'd be the first one to contribute as I have been in that seat before. And it's no fun.


I totally agree. You'll find many, many people don't, however, because they like her and cannot separate the two issues.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Jana DeLeon said:


> The bottom line is business was handled incorrectly. When money comes in, you pay your authors first, just like ***** said. You don't use other people's hard work to subsidize your own problems. I'm not diminishing what she's been through, but what if her authors are in an even worse position and now they're also cash poor?


Exactly. I HAVE had situations where an author is in a bad position. I've had those conversations where an author has asked me if it was possible to get paid their royalties early so they could pay a bill. Thankfully because I manage my business well I have always been able to meet that need. I can no more fathom spending an author's royalties on my own expenses that I can fathom pickpocketing someone on the street or stealing someone's purse.


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## Melisse (Jun 3, 2012)

For a moment I thought maybe I'd get paid for a year of royalties from Aspen Mountain Press. Sigh...not gonna happen.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

I think it's good that this thread was posted here, 
at the very least it's a good warning about respecting the laws of good business practice.

Also, I have to admit that I would NEVER EVER donate to this campaign. EVER.
As already stated, she has a history of mismanaging funds. It would've been best to have one of the authors do it.

Even if I was tempted to donate, her comments on that thread would've persuaded me not to.
She still hasn't taken responsibility of her actions and she seems more elusive and defensive than she does sorry.
Her reactions on that thread are a BIG red flag to me. I don't think those authors are getting all, if any of that money.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Deanna Chase said:


> How can no good come from this thread? I think awareness can come from this. Both to writers so they understand the inherent risks of signing with any publisher and with small publishers going into business. There are more than a handful of small publishers now a days. If anyone is going to sign with them they should be asking if there are escrow accounts for author payments, how audits are handled, what happens if the publisher becomes ill or otherwise unattainable? Who will step in and take care of business.
> 
> For my part, I see no excuse for authors not getting paid in any situation. Ever. That money belongs to the authors and should be paid first no matter what.


Some very good points. Small publishers get into trouble *all the time*. Not everyone makes quite this bad a mince of it, but I've known more than one author who ended up with their book rights an asset in a bankruptcy case. This is a good learning example of BE CAREFUL who you submit to.

I won't say anything about the woman involved, but I certainly won't donate to the campaign.


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## Jim Johnson (Jan 4, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I won't comment on the specifics. All I will do is share some very valuable advice I got a long time ago from my old Kirby distributor.
> 
> Pay your people first. Without your people, you have no business.
> Pay your bills second. You have to keep the lights on so you can run your business.
> ...


This, and don't go into business with your friends (or family). When money gets involved, even the strongest friendships and families can feel the strain.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

First,

She did file bankruptcy (Chapter 7) twice, ran kickstarter campaigns, all while this was going on. It's not a one month thing, but an on-going several years thing. 

Here's what I posted on PV:
Hi Vera,
I know you from KBWC. Iâ€™m sorry for all the illness in your family and that it seems to have hindered your ability to function as a business.

But now that you know, the best thing you can do is send all your authors a letter that you are taking down their books (then do it) and cease and desist from acting as their publisher. Suggest to them to self publish. You must stop taking from themâ€”immediately. The only books your line should be repping are your own.

This is the honorable thing to do.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for discussing this reasonably, everyone, and I appreciate *all* your comments. At this point I will limit myself from too much commenting, because I want you all to feel free to speak your mind even though I am a fellow KBer.

The situation is very complicated and I am glad that everyone is willing to discuss it with a open mind. I am open to all and any solutions and will be reading here.

But now, I am frankly worn out from posting over at Passive Guy, so not much from me here.

Thanks again, and carry on.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

KJCOLT said:


> It might have been smarter to do a campaign to ask help with money to fund those crises she went through, rather than take the money from the authors. I know I would have contributed a few dollars to help her, and I'm sure a lot of other people would have done the same.
> 
> She has my empathy though, it must be a desperate situation.


From the types of crises she described, I imagine she had all she could handle just hanging on day by day, by her fingernails. The emotional toll alone would have been huge, but factor in personal illness and surgery, and it becomes a matter of surviving each day. I doubt that a crowdfunding project would have been doable for her, if crowdfunding had even existed at the time this was all taking place.

Dipping into her business funds was clearly the wrong thing to do, but I get how something like that can happen. I'm uncomfortable with the degree to which commenters at PV are raking her over the coals. I have enough empathy to feel for her even while recognizing that she's a very bad businessperson.

Those who are suggesting that she should be running all crowdsourcing funds through a neutral, trustworthy third party are spot on. I hope she will recognize that this is the only way this effort will have any credibility.

I wish her and her authors well.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

LeeBee said:


> From the types of crises she described, I imagine she had all she could handle just hanging on day by day, by her fingernails. The emotional toll alone would have been huge, but factor in personal illness and surgery, and it becomes a matter of surviving each day. I doubt that a crowdfunding project would have been doable for her, if crowdfunding had even existed at the time this was all taking place.


Just pointing out - as has been mentioned upthread - that a crowdfunding project WAS done for her several years ago, when she ran into personal financial issues. $30k was raised on her behalf through crowdfunding, and she still took these authors' royalties.

I have empathy for Vera's plight, but not for her actions. Stealing from these authors was deeply unethical, regardless of circumstances. This is money they earned through their work; it is their livelihood. You can't take someone else's money (which they earned) without their permission just because you think _you_ need it more. And even though I understand how this happened, this crowd funding project is NOT the way to fix this.

I do appreciate this thread. These issues are important for authors to be aware of, both as we try to manage our own rights, and as we handle our own finances.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

DianaGabriel said:


> Just pointing out - as has been mentioned upthread - that a crowdfunding project WAS done for her several years ago, when she ran into personal financial issues. $30k was raised on her behalf through crowdfunding, and she still took these authors' royalties.


Yes, I saw the comment explaining that after I had posted my comment. It's all a really unfortunate situation. Some people are not cut out to be business owners responsible for paying others, and may not even demonstrate that until the sh*t hits the fan.


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## Michelle Hughes (Dec 12, 2011)

Is there really an excuse?  Just because this is publishing or that she's a likeable person *which I don't know*, the fact is when you don't pay a person for work that has been sold it's theft.  In the real world if you don't pay your employees you are sued.  Or say as an artist you performed at a show then at the end you weren't paid, same scenario.  It really doesn't matter what's going on in the personal life of the person running a business.  Feeling "bad" about it doesn't change the fact that this person received compensation for another person work.  Like I said I don't know the person in question, but even if I did, business is business.


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## Writerly Writer (Jul 19, 2012)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Thanks for discussing this reasonably, everyone, and I appreciate *all* your comments. At this point I will limit myself from too much commenting, because I want you all to feel free to speak your mind even though I am a fellow KBer.
> 
> The situation is very complicated and I am glad that everyone is willing to discuss it with a open mind. I am open to all and any solutions and will be reading here.
> 
> ...


Vera, I hope you have people for support while you're going through this difficult time. Please take care of yourself.


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## @Suzanna (Mar 14, 2011)

From the indiegogo campaign page:



> So I used all the money the books generated for personal stuff, and I didn't stop to figure out what percentage of the money should go to my author friends. *I am, in fact, still using these monies as they come in *because, well, otherwise I and my aging mother and my two cats will be out in the snow.


(Bolding mine.)

The publisher admits that she is still using author royalties for her own personal expenses. I just can't conceive of a mindset where someone thinks it is okay to continue to take money out of someone else's pocket and expect others to bail her out. I hold no ill will for her personally, and sincerely hope that things turn around for the better, but I can't support such a campaign when it's clear nothing will change in the future.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

Never been a fan of crowd-funding....

I'll edit myself right there and say... 'nuff said.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

But...even so...she's basically selling their books at $5 a pop to try to cover the royalties.  What about the royalties on THOSE books?  Or do those just not count??


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

vmblack said:


> But...even so...she's basically selling their books at $5 a pop to try to cover the royalties. What about the royalties on THOSE books? Or do those just not count??


She's only giving her books to those who contribute, no one else's


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

shelleyo1 said:


> She's only giving her books to those who contribute, no one else's


No. She might be the pseudonym behind some of those books, but I know Sherwood Smith, and she ain't Sherwood Smith. She also isn't MZB's estate. Or William Sanders.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Oh, I see now.  The books with photos aren't the ones she's giving away.  That's not the "list" she was referring to.  That's at the bottom.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Print-only deals for me, thanks. This just highlights the importance of keeping my ebook rights.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Wow. Just wow!

This would be my question knowing that $30,000 was *already *raised for Vera when her troubles started. For those considering contributing to this new fund, how assured are they that there won't be another campaign in another two years or so? Essentially, how can anyone be assured that the money actually will go to the authors.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

I have a very simple question:

What guarantee, in the slightest, will there be that the money people donate will go to the actual authors *when the person receiving the money is blatantly admitting to still be taking the authors' money for herself?*

Dear lord. Here's an idea. When someone admits to stealing money from other people, you don't go and give them *more* money.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I think that I would have donated if the campaign had been organized by one of her authors to pay all of the other authors.


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## David &#039;Half-Orc&#039; Dalglish (Feb 1, 2010)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I think that I would have donated if the campaign had been organized by one of her authors to pay all of the other authors.


Exactly. At least then it is the victims asking for help instead of this surreal scenario.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Some of the comments there are also pretty "choice".

I read most of it thinking something like "And then people wonder why so many authors trust only established trade publishers and wouldn't want to do business with a small press where someone like this can have free and unchecked access to their money", so I didn't know whether to be astonished or just entertained by the *huge* irony that one of the comments there actually says "And then you wonder why writers no longer trust traditional presses?" ! (I promise I'm not making it up: the comment's still there, right now, though obviously I won't be amazed if David removes it!)


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## 90daysnovel (Apr 30, 2012)

This might be a daft question as I know nothing about US law, but aren't assignable licences / copyrights considered assets that should be sold in bankruptcy?


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

I am new here, don't know Vera, and am just commenting on the facts as I see them from the PV blog, other blogs by interested parties, Vera's Indiegogo page and this thread. I would not donate to the campaign because Vera has a long history of asking for money and then mismanaging the funds. Based on that track record I don't anticipate improvement in the future. In my opinion she still doesn't understand what she did. For example, she has said several times that she started publishing the works of her authors "accidentally" because they were her friends and she apparently felt sorry for them. However, it was not accidental when she _continued_ to publish their works and collect their royalties over the years. That was a deliberate decision. The suggestion someone made upthread that Vera immediately cease publishing all works except her own is what I advise. Stop all this "accidental" publishing and "helping my writer friends who wanted to be published" stuff. All of those authors have the option to self-publish. There is no reason to keep them involved in this failed business venture.

I am also disturbed by contradictory things Vera said in her explanatory comment on the Indiegogo page. In one place she said "Now, in recent years I have had a horrendous run of personal bad luck. So I used all the money the books generated for personal stuff, and I didn't stop to figure out what percentage of the money should go to my author friends. I am, in fact, still using these monies as they come in because, well, otherwise I and my aging mother and my two cats will be out in the snow. That would not be good." But further down in the comment she says "I have set up a dedicated bank account just for this campaign. All the funds placed in this account will be disbursed to the authors directly. I will not get a single cent." Uh... she said she is still spending the authors' royalties on herself as they come in, but at the same time she said she has set up a dedicated bank account for the Indiegogo contributions. Why aren't the authors' royalties being put into this dedicated account? Because she still thinks she is entitled to keep those royalties for herself?

Look, I can sympathize with Vera's personal problems. Many of us, myself included, have had to cope with illness, death in the family and extreme financial hardship. Many thousands of people have lost their homes to foreclosure. I sincerely hope that Vera's personal situation improves. But if you are running a business and the business fails, you can't take your contractors/authors down with you and then still expect them to support you financially. You can go to the public well of asking for donations on Indiegogo, GoFundMe and other fundraising sites just so many times before people get fed up. Vera has already filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy twice, according to what I've read. She can't keep on with a BK cycle indefinitely either. Maybe it's time to shut down the publishing business entirely and apply for Social Security disability, if her health issues are that serious, or maybe apply for welfare/food stamps/Medicaid benefits.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Deanna Chase said:


> How can no good come from this thread? I think awareness can come from this. Both to writers so they understand the inherent risks of signing with any publisher and with small publishers going into business. There are more than a handful of small publishers now a days. If anyone is going to sign with them they should be asking if there are escrow accounts for author payments, how audits are handled, what happens if the publisher becomes ill or otherwise unattainable? Who will step in and take care of business.
> 
> For my part, I see no excuse for authors not getting paid in any situation. Ever. That money belongs to the authors and should be paid first no matter what.


I think this sums things up well.

I know this is an uncomfortable thread for some, but I think it's a very important cautionary tale.

I'm still in shock over the indiegogo aspect of it all and hope Vera stops that asap.


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## Desmond X. Torres (Mar 16, 2013)

*For me, this tale needs a bump b/c it shows how to handle a hurricane of misfortunes:
*


EelKat said:


> We were taught this in Business Management class.
> 
> I would add to this list: Do not get in over your head; if it looks like things are getting out of control, start letting go of things that are getting too hard to handle.
> 
> ...


After reading EelKat's post the first thing I did was grab my inner skeptic and cynic, threw them into a corner and told 'em to shaddap.

*I believe every single word you've posted here, EelKat, and my heart aches for you.* I'm sorry for your troubles, girl. My sympathy is increased b/c of the honorable and responsible way you managed the challenges life threw at you.

Vaya con Dios, EK.

Could you please PM me with your email addy?

Here on Kb, 'TP' gets a bad rap more often than not, and frankly Vera's case is an illustration of how badly things can go. From reading a slew of the comments on PG's post I learned an important fact:

_*IF A TP PUBLISHER GOES UNDER, AN AUTHOR'S RIGHTS CAN BE SOLD OFF AS A BUSINESS ASSET. *_

Now if the above is an industry standard, or if it happens more often than not, whoa&#8230; That was news to me.

I'm on the sidelines with respect to Vera's dilemma, like a kid in the schoolyard I'm watching this train wreck. Since I have no dog in this fight, I'll keep my opinions to myself as to what she should be about.

I come to Kb to learn, and my lesson is in all caps above.
Thanks for putting this up Monique.


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## nobody_important (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm just not convinced that her authors are gonna see a penny out of this.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

People are donating money to the campaign, though. At the very least Vera has shown herself to be a poor steward of other people's money. Even if you believe her motives are pure, donating to this cause seems not much different than treating a friend with a gambling addiction to a weekend in Vegas.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

MichaelWallace said:


> People are donating money to the campaign, though. At the very least Vera has shown herself to be a poor steward of other people's money. Even if you believe her motives are pure, donating to this cause seems not much different than treating a friend with a gambling addiction to a weekend in Vegas.


Yes. She needs to STOP this campaign and RETURN the money already donated. Immediately.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Monique said:


> Yes. She needs to STOP this campaign and RETURN the money already donated. Immediately.


That's not going to happen. Returning other people's money is precisely her problem. Once money goes into Vera's hands, it doesn't matter if the money is a loan from a dying friend or author royalties belonging to another writer, it doesn't come back again.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

1001nightspress said:


> So I sympathize with the authors here. But surely they must know that crowd-funding--asking OTHER people, who have no connection with the failed business, to pay the missing money--isn't right.


But it's not the authors running this campaign. It's the "publisher" who spent their royalties on personal expenses, and admits that she is STILL doing so to this day.



M.H. Lee said:


> Just to clarify something that I believe is true. On the Passive Guy blog someone wrote a very tongue-in-cheek summary of the situation. For some bizarre reason it appears that Vera thought it was a good, legitimate summary to use on the IndieGoGo campaign and replaced whatever she had actually written with that summary. The quotes upthread from the campaign page are from the summary that guy wrote and Vera decided to use, but I don't believe were actually written by her.
> 
> The fact that she used that summary without seeing what was wrong with what is said in that summary (which people have pointed out in their quotes) is a HUGE red flag to me. Someone else mentioned it above: in my profession what she did is called misappropriation. And what she's doing now is affinity fraud (essentially defrauding members of your community by playing on their trust).


I am glad someone pointed this out. The commenter's write-up of the situation was clearly snarky, though accurate. It mocked her lack of remorse and her refusal to take full responsibility for her actions. It's beyond me why she would include this verbatim on the indiegogo page, because it has a tone of "Whoops, look at what I did! I stole and am still stealing! Haha, will someone bail me out?" Which isn't helping the situation either.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Vera Nazarian said:


> The situation is very complicated and I am glad that everyone is willing to discuss it with a open mind. I am open to all and any solutions and will be reading here.


Vera, there is only ONE ethical and moral solution right now. Close up your business and release all of those authors from their contracts. You have no legal, moral, or ethical right to continue collecting revenues on the works of other people. Your person problems do not trump the problems you have caused for your authors.

Look, obviously, you have talent on the creative end of the book business. Now would be the time to sell those services to other publishers or authors. Stop pretending you are a successful publisher. You are not. You failed at running a business not because of the economy or personal problems, but because of your own inability to separate your wants and needs from the needs of the business. But if you are serious about making it right, you have the option of making it right. There is nothing stopping you from offering editing, proofreading, or other services. And then when you complete those services, have the customer pay the money DIRECTLY to one of the authors you owe money to. Because you are horrible managing money and cannot be trusted with it.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

I took the time to read through all the comments on PG. Wow. She needs to stop trying to defend herself because with each comment, she's making herself look worse. The bottom line is this is clearly a person who should never, ever run a business. Ever.

And I think the following applies: You can't be more honest with others than you are with yourself.


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## ricola (Mar 3, 2014)

Desmond X. Torres said:


> _*IF A TP PUBLISHER GOES UNDER, AN AUTHOR'S RIGHTS CAN BE SOLD OFF AS A BUSINESS ASSET. *_
> 
> Now if the above is an industry standard, or if it happens more often than not, whoa&#8230; That was news to me.


It is! What's terrifying is that if you have a hard contract with an option clause with a non-compete, YOU CANNOT PUBLISH ANYTHING RELATED TO YOUR OTHER BOOKS while your contract is in bankruptcy limbo.

This had REALLY hurt any number of authors in the past.

I had an option clause. It was, however, INCREDIBLY specific and had a very narrow time limit for response.


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## WG McCabe (Oct 13, 2012)

MichaelWallace said:


> People are donating money to the campaign, though. At the very least Vera has shown herself to be a poor steward of other people's money. Even if you believe her motives are pure, donating to this cause seems not much different than treating a friend with a gambling addiction to a weekend in Vegas.


A fool and his money. In action.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

M.H. Lee said:


> Just to clarify something that I believe is true. On the Passive Guy blog someone wrote a very tongue-in-cheek summary of the situation. For some bizarre reason it appears that Vera thought it was a good, legitimate summary to use on the IndieGoGo campaign and replaced whatever she had actually written with that summary. The quotes upthread from the campaign page are from the summary that guy wrote and Vera decided to use, but I don't believe were actually written by her.
> 
> The fact that she used that summary without seeing what was wrong with what is said in that summary (which people have pointed out in their quotes) is a HUGE red flag to me. Someone else mentioned it above: in my profession what she did is called misappropriation. And what she's doing now is affinity fraud (essentially defrauding members of your community by playing on their trust).


I just went back and looked at the PV blog. Yes, Vera did use the man's comment verbatim, and she even thanked him for it, still failing to see his sarcasm. He was surprised, but said something like okay, if that's what you want to do, use it. There's no point in saying it was not originally "actually written by her." She posted it on her Indiegogo page as her own explanation, so now she owns it.


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## zoe tate (Dec 18, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Vera, there is only ONE ethical and moral solution right now. Close up your business and release all of those authors from their contracts.


I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be truly _astonished_ if a lawyer disagreed with that. I don't question Vera's intentions over what she's done, here, and I accept that she "meant well" in doing it, but her chosen "solution" is in my opinion a totally inappropriate and unreasonable one.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

MichaelWallace said:


> That's not going to happen. Returning other people's money is precisely her problem. Once money goes into Vera's hands, it doesn't matter if the money is a loan from a dying friend or author royalties belonging to another writer, it doesn't come back again.


Exactly. All of this is just a long con.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Vera, there is only ONE ethical and moral solution right now. Close up your business and release all of those authors from their contracts. You have no legal, moral, or ethical right to continue collecting revenues on the works of other people. Your person problems do not trump the problems you have caused for your authors.


+1


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

maiasepp said:


> Exactly. All of this is just a long con.


I don't think there's ever been an intent to defraud. However, once you've convinced yourself that that, because you desperately need money in a crisis, you're justified in using whatever money happens to be at hand, it probably becomes easier and easier to justify taking it each time you're again desperate. There's little reason to think that won't happen again here. However, I would never presume to say that she intended this to be a con game. She's clearly not suited to run a business and has made a lot of jaw-dropping mistakes, but it is really easy to see how those mistakes were rationalized, again and again.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I took the time to read through all the comments on PG. Wow. She needs to stop trying to defend herself because with each comment, she's making herself look worse.


Probably also not a good use of time. For one, having to defend herself to all these comments from strangers must be heart-breaking.
For another, that time could be spent picking up some cash by editing, proofing etc for other people to pick up some cash. It is possible to work from home in this industry, as we all know.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> I don't think there's ever been an intent to defraud. However, once you've convinced yourself that that, because you desperately need money in a crisis, you're justified in using whatever money happens to be at hand, it probably becomes easier and easier to justify taking it each time you're again desperate.


The concept is called "creeping normalcy." Creeping normalcy states that major changes in behavior that would otherwise be rejected or resisted if attempted all at once can be made to appear normal through smaller steps. The concept is often discussed by privacy advocates, for example, insofar as discussions regarding intrusions into personal privacy over time. But it also applies to ethics. Once you create an "exception" in your mind to an ethical issue, it becomes easier to create additional exceptions in similar circumstances. In truth, Vera's actions are worse precisely BECAUSE she didn't set out to defraud. Her actions are the result of an internal inability to realize that her behavior is wrong. Because she has, over a long period of time, justified each poor action to the point where it has become normal for her. Just reading her comments, my concern is that she doesn't even understand WHY what she did was wrong.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Unfortunately, if I were one of the authors owed back money to, I'd call it a loss and go on with my life. I would certainly feel very uncomfortable about taking money from strangers via the publisher's fundraising efforts due to her embezzling of the funds. That would so NOT sit well with me.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

LeeBee said:


> I don't think there's ever been an intent to defraud. However, once you've convinced yourself that that, because you desperately need money in a crisis, you're justified in using whatever money happens to be at hand, it probably becomes easier and easier to justify taking it each time you're again desperate. There's little reason to think that won't happen again here. However, I would never presume to say that she intended this to be a con game. She's clearly not suited to run a business and has made a lot of jaw-dropping mistakes, but it is really easy to see how those mistakes were rationalized, again and again.


She wants other people to pay back money she stole while she is still actively engaged in defrauding people - something she fully plans to keep doing. That's pretty clear intent, IMO. If she closed up her business and ran this fundraiser (which I think is inappropriate, but that's not my call) then I think my opinion would be different.

And I'm currently owed $1,500 from a "friend" who's using the same sort of tactics on me - she's having tough luck, health problems, etc. I told her to sell something or take out a loan and pay me back, but that's "too hard" for her. So now I'm paying interest on her debt, and my plan in the next few months is to take the money out of one of my investments so I can stop paying that interest. I can't afford that, but it's been two years and it's time to settle the debt. And I was born with a chronic illness, so I get it.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The concept is called "creeping normalcy." Creeping normalcy states that major changes in behavior that would otherwise be rejected or resisted if attempted all at once can be made to appear normal through smaller steps. The concept is often discussed by privacy advocates, for example, insofar as discussions regarding intrusions into personal privacy over time. But it also applies to ethics. Once you create an "exception" in your mind to an ethical issue, it becomes easier to create additional exceptions in similar circumstances. In truth, Vera's actions are worse precisely BECAUSE she didn't set out to defraud. Her actions are the result of an internal inability to realize that her behavior is wrong. Because she has, over a long period of time, justified each poor action to the point where it has become normal for her. Just reading her comments, my concern is that she doesn't even understand WHY what she did was wrong.


Thanks for the name of the concept I described. That makes a lot of sense. And I agree that her actual actions may be worse, in effect, because there was no intent to defraud. But I think it's important to recognize what's actually going on rather than simply say she's a con artist. Use of the wrong label prevents us from learning the right cautionary lessons from this unfortunate situation.


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## Krista D. Ball (Mar 8, 2011)

Tears of Crimson Publishing said:


> *Is there really an excuse?* Just because this is publishing or that she's a likeable person *which I don't know*, the fact is when you don't pay a person for work that has been sold it's theft. In the real world if you don't pay your employees you are sued. Or say as an artist you performed at a show then at the end you weren't paid, same scenario. It really doesn't matter what's going on in the personal life of the person running a business. Feeling "bad" about it doesn't change the fact that this person received compensation for another person work. Like I said I don't know the person in question, but even if I did, business is business.


I don't think so, but some people do.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Here's what I posted on PV:
> 
> *But now that you know, the best thing you can do is send all your authors a letter that you are taking down their books (then do it) and cease and desist from acting as their publisher. Suggest to them to self publish. You must stop taking from them immediately. * The only books your line should be repping are your own.
> 
> This is the honorable thing to do.


I posted this back on the second page of this thread. I'm surprised more people aren't insisting she stop repping other authors. I'm surprised any of her authors are still allowing her to take their money. She owes so much, while knowing the reality that her books do not sell enough to even meet her basic bills, much less pay people back.

She needs to get a job that pays better (probably not in publishing, maybe in bill collections) ASAP. No excuses.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've read the entire PV thread, and also this one, and want to point out a few things:

o Vera says she has been reverting rights to authors upon request, and that those authors who continue to publish with her are doing so with full knowledge of the situation. If this is true, what's going on *now* cannot be said to be theft.

o Vera says she only publishes these folks' POD paperbacks and encourages them to publish their ebooks on their own. The vast majority of indie authors sell comparatively few paper books, so if Vera's description of the situation is accurate, the royalties she has taken may represent a small portion of these authors' income. Obviously, there are exceptions (such as Joe N.), and it's possible that some of these authors don't have ebooks out.

o The indiegogo campaign is basically a sale of Vera's books -- you give her $5, she gives you one of her books. It's a sale maximized to produce the most revenue, since indiegogo will take a much smaller fee than an online retailer would.

o It is possible to feel very bad for and angry on behalf of the authors whose royalties have been taken while also feeling compassion and understanding for Vera. Maybe she's screwed up. Maybe you're not screwed up in the same way. But you're probably screwed up in some way. Most of us are. Mote, eye, etc.

At the same time:

o Some neutral third party should be handling the money coming in from the indiegogo campaign. If Vera is serious about making the campaign a success for her authors, she'll do this immediately. One of the authors would be an ideal candidate to take over management of the separate account. Vera can add that person's name to the bank account and then remove her own. Or some other such solution.

o I think Vera should get out of the business of publishing other people's books. She has described her situation in some detail, and it's clearly too precarious for her to be taking on this responsibility. Moreover, she just may not be cut out for running a small business in a way that's safe for herself and others involved. If the proper fail-safes had been in place from the get-go, none of this would've happened. As things stand, it seems to me she's in a very risky position. What will she do if one of the earlier authors, the ones who did not give permission, lodges a criminal complaint? With her mother depending on her, she needs to make sure she's not putting herself in danger. If her remaining authors want to keep getting her help with putting out paperbacks, she can assist them on a flat-fee basis with covers, formatting, and guidance on publishing books through LS or CS.

A number of other people have already made the last two points. I'm seconding/thirding/eighthing them.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Becca Mills - 

She's taken $170,000 total over five years...that is not peanuts, and that amount doesn't include royalties owed...


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> It is possible to feel very bad for and angry on behalf of the authors whose royalties have been taken while also feeling compassion and understanding for Vera. Maybe she's screwed up. Maybe you're not screwed up in the same way. But you're probably screwed up in some way. Most of us are. Mote, eye, etc.


This. Pretty much the point I've tried to make, but you did it better.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Becca Mills -
> 
> She's taken $170,000 total over five years...that is not peanuts, and that amount doesn't include royalties owed...


Yes. I've read Deirdre Saoirse Moen's linked blog posts, in addition to both threads.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I've read the entire PV thread, and also this one, and want to point out a few things:
> 
> o Vera says she has been reverting rights to authors upon request, and that those authors who continue to publish with her are doing so with full knowledge of the situation. If this is true, what's going on *now* cannot be said to be theft.


I think that's a fair point. Personally, I don't think they have enough information to use when making that decision, because they don't know what their earnings are. If the $$ that her writers are earning on a monthly basis is significant, and they're not aware of that fact, then they are making a decision based on only partial data, which is, IMO, not reasonable.

But if they all are happy to give their royalties, regardless if they are today or at some point in the future will be significant money, to give 100% of that money to someone else, with no hope of ever seeing that money again (I'm being serious, not trying to be flippant), then I would agree with you - it's no longer fraud/theft, etc. It then becomes a gift, and, IMO, a private matter.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I've read the entire PV thread, and also this one, and want to point out a few things:
> 
> o Vera says she has been reverting rights to authors upon request, and that those authors who continue to publish with her are doing so with full knowledge of the situation. If this is true, what's going on *now* cannot be said to be theft.


The authors may feel they have no recourse, or if they don't let her continue publishing they will never see a dime. None of these authors have "full knowledge" of the situation. They only know what Vera has told them, which is probably the same "feel sorry for me" line she has been feeding them for years. She is STILL in breach of contract. She still misappropriated funds. And there is such a thing as theft by deception, when you trick people into making decisions when you have no intention of following through (i.e. Nigerian scam). Back in the day, they called these "confidence scams" because the con artist would gain the confidence of the mark and convince them that everything would work out.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

maiasepp said:


> But if they all are happy to give their royalties, regardless if they are today or at some point in the future will be significant money, to give 100% of that money to someone else, with no hope of ever seeing that money again (I'm being serious, not trying to be flippant), then I would agree with you - it's no longer fraud/theft, etc. It then becomes a gift, and, IMO, a private matter.


It becomes an IRS matter. That sort of bad debt should be reported. Every one of those authors should write off the money as a bad debt and issue Vera a 1099 for the income. At least if they write it off as a bad debt, they can get some relief on their income taxes.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

A few people have donated to the campaign; my understanding of these types of campaigns is that you begin with your own social circle and they forward it on to their circle and so on. I wonder if any of that money comes from the authors involved. 

If the publisher/author is reading, I hope they consider stopping the current campaign; allow for one of the authors to take over. I think there would be more people willing to donate if the person who created the problem was removed from the proposed solution.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It becomes an IRS matter. That sort of bad debt should be reported. Every one of those authors should write off the money as a bad debt and issue Vera a 1099 for the income. At least if they write it off as a bad debt, they can get some relief on their income taxes.


Oh, agreed. But they'd need to know what the actual dollar amounts would be for that, yes? And they don't have that piece of the puzzle, and won't any time soon, as far as I can see.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Comments are now closed on the Passive Voice blog. I just checked it a minute ago. So unless Passive Guy decides to reopen comments later, nothing more will be said over there. However, the matter is being discussed on other blogs and forums. (Not going to link to them; they can be found through a Google search on this topic.) There is widespread disapproval of Vera's Indiegogo campaign.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> It is possible to feel very bad for and angry on behalf of the authors whose royalties have been taken while also feeling compassion and understanding for Vera. Maybe she's screwed up. Maybe you're not screwed up in the same way. But you're probably screwed up in some way. Most of us are. Mote, eye, etc.


In 2010, a NJ transit truck hit Mike's car while he was parked and we spend 18 months fighting with the state to get them to cover the repairs. In the interim, Mike had lost time from work and I ended up paying interest on credit cards that I used to pay the bill (the state refused to cover interest or the lost time). In 2011, Hurricane Irene left three feet of water in my basement and $10,000 in damages. My homeowners insurance refused to cover it because it was "flood" related and the year prior they had quietly removed the flood rider from my policy. I ended up having to take out a SBA disaster relief loan, which I am still paying, to cover the repairs and related expenses. At the end of last year, my sister-in-law's boyfriend tried to kill her. This causes a huge crisis in the family that made enormous demands on my time. At no time did it ever occur to me to take the money owed my authors and use it for my own expenses. It would have made life easier for ME to have done that. I could have avoided the loan or credit card debt or a lot of the financial burden that resulted from what happened last year. But that wasn't my money.

That's not to say these issues did not negatively impact my business. They did. Projects got pushed back and things slipped through the cracks. But what I never did was fail to pay people what was owed them, and what I always did was communicate with people to let them know what was going on and what my contingency plan was.

So yes, we all have our issues. The nature of a person is not defined by his or her problems in life, but how a person responds to those problems. With the exception of her mother's illness, Vera's problems are her own creation. Instead of taking ownership of them, she has chosen...yes...chosen, to make those problems someone else's burden. She made the choice to pass off her problems to other people and continues to pass off her problems onto others.

So no, I won't abide by any call to feel compassion or understanding, because Vera's actions have demonstrated a breathtaking LACK of compassion and understanding for everyone else. She expects other people to pick up the slack for her lack of financial restraint simply by virtue of the fact that she is a nice person. But no, there is more to being a nice person that saying nice things. Anyone can be nice on the internet. But actions speak louder than forum posts.


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## MeiLinMiranda (Feb 17, 2011)

CraigInTwinCities said:


> Never been a fan of crowd-funding....
> 
> I'll edit myself right there and say... 'nuff said.


These are the projects which give crowdfunding a bad name. I crowdfund my books because my readers ask me to; they want the extras and to get things before they come out. I could do it myself but it's easier via Kickstarter and I also reach new readers there.

What a mess.  Myself, I give money to projects I want to see happen, or to medical funds. I don't give money to people in situations like this. It's not the "crowd's" responsibility to help her fix her own business mistakes and bad decisions. When I lost my business, I sucked it up and bore it, and barely kept my house. That's what owning a business is: a calculated risk. If you calculate wrong--or worse, deliberately fudge your numbers--well, you pay the price, move on and do something else. I'm out of the cafe business for good, I'll tell you that much!


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

maiasepp said:


> Oh, agreed. But they'd need to know what the actual dollar amounts would be for that, yes? And they don't have that piece of the puzzle, and won't any time soon, as far as I can see.


They can't write off the money as bad debt because they never paid any out. If you use cash basis accounting, you report income when received and expenses when paid. From the IRS's standpoint, no loss occurred because no cash exchanged hands. I wish you could take a loss. I would have had a big one from Dorchester, but that's simply not the way the tax code sees it.


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## Maia Sepp Ross (May 10, 2013)

Jana DeLeon said:


> They can't write off the money as bad debt because they never paid any out. If you use cash basis accounting, you report income when received and expenses when paid. From the IRS's standpoint, no loss occurred because no cash exchanged hands. I wish you could take a loss. I would have had a big one from Dorchester, but that's simply not the way the tax code sees it.


I'm very sorry to hear that 

Thanks for the detail, though. I'm not American - so I don't know anything about your tax code.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Jana DeLeon said:


> They can't write off the money as bad debt because they never paid any out. If you use cash basis accounting, you report income when received and expenses when paid. From the IRS's standpoint, no loss occurred because no cash exchanged hands. I wish you could take a loss. I would have had a big one from Dorchester, but that's simply not the way the tax code sees it.


This is correct . . . .unless the persons in question reported their income and expenses on an accrual basis -- which is extremely unlikely -- there's no bad debt they can claim for UN-received income.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

David 'Half-Orc' Dalglish said:


> I have a very simple question:
> 
> What guarantee, in the slightest, will there be that the money people donate will go to the actual authors *when the person receiving the money is blatantly admitting to still be taking the authors' money for herself?*
> 
> Dear lord. Here's an idea. When someone admits to stealing money from other people, you don't go and give them *more* money.


Exactly.

I was going to respond with an empathetic punchline agreeing with you, but when it comes to money due authors, it's just not a good time for a joke.


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## CraigInOregon (Aug 6, 2010)

MeiLinMiranda said:


> These are the projects which give crowdfunding a bad name. I crowdfund my books because my readers ask me to; they want the extras and to get things before they come out. I could do it myself but it's easier via Kickstarter and I also reach new readers there.


Not a problem, but I foresaw the potential for abuses such as the one that is the topic of this thread.

Certainly there are people (like you) who don't abuse the tool.  And projects that would never have existed without it, such as the Veronica Mars movie, the new Zach Braff movie that's some sort of sequel to Garden State, and a couple forthcoming new album-projects from favorite musical acts of mine who have small-but-dedicated audiences.

My opposition in concept has always been focused on the potential for abuse, and the idea of asking to be paid before you complete something (because what it you never complete it?).

But yes, many people can and do handle the responsibility... responsibly.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

LeeBee said:


> This. Pretty much the point I've tried to make, but you did it better.


I may have been brainwashed. My coffee said _Listen to LeeBee_ this morning.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I may have been brainwashed. My coffee said _Listen to LeeBee_ this morning.


The secret is the extra shot of persuasiveness. 

Just kidding. If I've proven anything in my life, it's that I lack any talent for persuasion.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So yes, we all have our issues. The nature of a person is not defined by his or her problems in life, but how a person responds to those problems. With the exception of her mother's illness, Vera's problems are her own creation. Instead of taking ownership of them, she has chosen...yes...chosen, to make those problems someone else's burden. She made the choice to pass off her problems to other people and continues to pass off her problems onto others.


Despite the fact that Vera's father's death, her own severe illness, and the Great Recession were no more self-created than her mother's illness, I agree with your general take on the situation.

Nevertheless, I feel bad for her, and nasty tone of the thread over on PV bothered me. Whatever wretched flaws might belong to people who are quick to criticize others -- you can't see those on the internet, either.

I'm sorry to hear you went through such a run of terrible luck and bad treatment at the hands of others. If everyone handled such difficulties like you did, the world would be a better place.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> I'm sorry to hear you went through such a run of terrible luck and bad treatment at the hands of others. If everyone handled such difficulties like you did, the world would be a better place.


My intent was certainly not to generate any sympathy for myself. I think folks by now realize I rarely talk about my personal issues because, well, they are personal. I just felt at this point, those issues were relevant to the greater problem here.

Most people are inherently good and want to do the right thing. I genuinely believe this. But the problem is that because we are inherently good, and because we have empathy, we tend to allow that empathy to cloud our judgment. And there are certain subsets of the population that take advantage of this. There is a fine line between compassion and enabling. I have sat by too many times and watched, helpless, as friends have stayed in abusive relationships with alcoholics and drug addicts because they felt responsible for the other person's well-being. I have a co-worker who has burned through her entire life savings to bail out her deadbeat son, again. She is now tens of thousands in debt. He came home with a new Xbox One that he bought with his unemployment check.

Because we feel compassion, we handle these toxic individuals with kid gloves. We don't want to "make it worse." Or "pile on." But that is PRECISELY what these people need. A huge intervention where everyone surrounds them and says "NO MORE." There comes a point where we have to say being nice is not enough. Being likeable is not enough. Good intents are not enough. Meaning well is not enough. Instead of expecting people to hold their tongue out of compassion, she needs to experience the brutal honestly DESPITE our compassion. Fluffy bunny slippers and happy thoughts are what got her into this mess. She needs to be made to face the hard, cold facts of what SHE has done.


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> The concept is called "creeping normalcy." Creeping normalcy states that major changes in behavior that would otherwise be rejected or resisted if attempted all at once can be made to appear normal through smaller steps. The concept is often discussed by privacy advocates, for example, insofar as discussions regarding intrusions into personal privacy over time. But it also applies to ethics. Once you create an "exception" in your mind to an ethical issue, it becomes easier to create additional exceptions in similar circumstances. In truth, Vera's actions are worse precisely BECAUSE she didn't set out to defraud. Her actions are the result of an internal inability to realize that her behavior is wrong. Because she has, over a long period of time, justified each poor action to the point where it has become normal for her. Just reading her comments, my concern is that she doesn't even understand WHY what she did was wrong.


You are so correct on all this Julie. It begins with a little dip with the person saying to themselves they'll replace the money next month when things get better. It was so easy to dip into others money that they continue to dip and continue to rationalize it to themselves. They continue and months turn to years and they continue because in their mind nothing has changed. The dollars add up and one day the jig is up. It happens all the time where a trusted person betrays the trust and they continue to use the same old rationalizations to themselves and others--they only needed a little piece of cheese and they were going to replace it just as soon as....

Any way you cut it--it is stealing. Embezzlement of others monies. If she had merely flopped on paying some credit cards or defaulted on a bank loan I wouldn't see the gravity as I see here. I don't think any of these writers she "accidentally" published/publishes is making much money being with her, so in effect she is stealing from middle class or poor people and continues to. Adding insult to injury she wants crowdsourcing to pay them for what she stole from them She has no conscience. And she wants sympathy and money from others? This has worked for her before. I'll stop on that.


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## Charmaine (Jul 20, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Because we feel compassion, we handle these toxic individuals with kid gloves. We don't want to "make it worse." Or "pile on." But that is PRECISELY what these people need. A huge intervention where everyone surrounds them and says "NO MORE." There comes a point where we have to say being nice is not enough. Being likeable is not enough. Good intents are not enough. Meaning well is not enough. Instead of expecting people to hold their tongue out of compassion, she needs to experience the brutal honestly DESPITE our compassion. Fluffy bunny slippers and happy thoughts are what got her into this mess. She needs to be made to face the hard, cold facts of what SHE has done.


This is the best thing I've read in any of the threads concerning this situation.
She has been given far too much money for her not to right this situation.
Anything else people contribute is nothing more than enabling.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

I just looked at the Indiegogo campaign and I noticed the addendum.

Essentially, she added a paragraph asking for someone to intervene and administer the financial account for her authors. That person could have the money directed to their account and they would be responsible for paying the authors.

All that I can say is that it seems very unwise to post something like this; instead, consider vetting a professional to handle these transactions.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe you're right, Julie. But I feel a difference between "she needs to experience the brutal honestly DESPITE our compassion" and [some of the things said over there]. Sorry, I think quoting that stuff would come under WHOA. I agree about not enabling. I won't be contributing.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Moist_Tissue said:


> I just looked at the Indiegogo campaign and I noticed the addendum.
> 
> Essentially, she added a paragraph asking for someone to intervene and administer the financial account for her authors. That person could have the money directed to their account and they would be responsible for paying the authors.
> 
> All that I can say is that it seems very unwise to post something like this; instead, consider vetting a professional to handle these transactions.


My gosh, she's just asking any stranger on the Internet to volunteer to handle the money? That makes it a target for scammers. Can't she ask an official at the bank where she set up the account to advise her on selecting a person to manage the account?

Another thing: I looked at the Norilana catalogue on her website, and saw that all the Marion Zimmer Bradley books have the notice (in very obvious red font) "This title has been tranferred to Marion Zimmer Bradley Literary Works Trust." I understand that to mean that the trust took back the rights to the MZB books and that they are no longer published by Norilana, correct? However, on the Indiegogo page Vera says Norilana publishes the MZB books and shows thumbnails of the covers. She has a hot link to her Norilana catalogue, so it is not hard to click and find out that the MZB books are not available from Norilana. I suggest that she correct this on the Indiegogo page (delete all references to the MZB books).


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## Zelah Meyer (Jun 15, 2011)

This is a difficult situation.

I can't help but feel sympathetic for all that Vera has had to go through on a personal basis. I also agree with EelKat (who has also been through hell) that it's hard to think clearly or keep up with normal tasks during a time of crisis.

However...

As EelKat and Julie show - a personal crisis doesn't have to involve taking others down with you.

There comes a point in whatever hell that you're going through where you do have the opportunity to realise that you are letting your obligations slide. At that point, you have a responsibility to take action. You need to let those authors know as soon as possible that there is a problem and work with them on a solution. This whole thing was allowed to go on far, far too long & has resulted in a pile of debts that will be difficult if not impossible to pay back given the situation that Vera is in.

I do believe that Vera wants to pay these people back. However, I think she's misguided if she thinks that she's going to be able to - either practically or emotionally. She's become too dependent on the money that comes in for their books - and her comments on the Passive Voice give the impression that she feels it's only logical that she use that money to pay her essential bills & only pay the authors if she has any spare.

The fact is - the royalties that should be going to those authors - and that should have gone to them - are money that should not exist as far as Vera is concerned. It's not her money. It's not an emergency fund for her to dip into in order to put much needed food on the table. Those authors might need those royalties to put food on _their_ tables or pay urgent medical bills - and they're the ones it belongs to.

Once it became evident that there was a problem, then she should have stopped taking money for their sales. What she shouldn't have done is to continue to take even more of their royalties over a period that seems to amount to years. There has been more than enough time for her to recognise that she has a problem. What I think she needs to do is teach the people she still represents how to self-publish, or point them towards a flat fee, hand holding outfit who will publish their work and pay their royalties.

She's in a terrible position personally, but I think she's in denial about the fact that she does not have a right to decide that her needs are greater than those of the people she publishes.

So yes, Vera - I really hope that your personal situation improves - but those royalties for books by the other authors are not yours. You should not be spending that money, however badly you need it. It's morally (and legally) wrong - and that is why you're getting such a lot of hostility. You're a nice person, who means well - but you've been doing a nasty thing. You might have the intention to make up for that, and I hope that you do, but you need to recognise your own weaknesses - and running a business that deals with other people's money is clearly one of those. If your friends want to donate the rights to one or more of their works to you on the understanding that you're going to use the money to look after your mother, then fair enough, it's OK to publish them. If the rights remain with them - then the best thing you can do as their friend is to stop taking any more money from them before you start looking into the possibility of paying people back the money you owe.


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

I stole.

I continue to steal to pay my bills (calling it something else - deferred payment, whatever).

Here is why it's not my fault, but the universe's.

Did I miss some important nuance?

Anybody that buys this is a moron.

That's my compassionate take.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Dear folks,

There is one point I need to say and no, it does NOT excuse anything, nor am I trying to, but just need to say this just to show you where I am coming from.

There is a subtle but true *real life difference between outright stealing* -- as in actively dipping into an account of strictly other people's money -- and *being unable to literally separate your own money from anyone else's*, since it all comes in as a single lump direct deposit payment from Lightning Source, and it requires a "simple" act of bookeeping to do that -- when you literally CAN'T.

Because each month it all comes in from one source (two, if you count one from US and one from UK), just a sum for all book titles sold in that royalty period. Normally I would sit down twice a year (since I paid them bi-annually) and take a week to figure out everyone's numbers, and send out prompt checks.

But suddenly you cannot get to this basic task -- all because of health, emergency, exhaustion, chronic brain fog, and sheer emotional resources and time needed to do this otherwise average bookkeeping task when you are faced with DAILY HE*LL.

You are literally sitting in the hospital at the bedside of your mother with ovarian cancer, and then an hour later running to the police station to bail out your 89-year-old father who has once again gotten out of the house (day or night makes no difference, so you never sleep properly), took a bus, and tried to shoplift due to dementia or wandered into someone's yard, and got lost across town and got picked up...

So you pick up dad for the umpteenth time, get home, and there is a new pile of bills, and a new mess because Bank of America sent more loan modification paperwork, and meanwhile the City of Los Angeles wants you to meet with engineers who are trying to expand the bridge next to your property and are forcing you to replant bushes and move a fence (and hire contractors, and hey you will only be reimbursed AFTER the City accepts their bids!), and oh, then the next day, after you meet with the engineers, and have not had time to drive to the hospital to see mom-- and oh yeah, you are super-bleeding again and have to pick up menstrual pads -- but there is a California brownout so the traffic lights are on the blink, and you are in a brain fog and you are in an accident, and then the tow truck guy hitches up your car and takes you to the nearest store first as you are crying, so that you can buy three bags of pads cause you know that car will now be undrivable for days since you have only basic liability insurance and no way to fix it yet, and no time to figure royalties... Geez, what's royalties? Who?

This was a typical week back then. All real.

Kind of comical now, looking back.

And wait, there were so many more goodies happening like this, one after another. Sewer flood, and your backyard swimming in sh*t? Hah! Just another day in the life!

Go give mom her heparin flush of her IV line, then wait while the chemo taxi comes to pick her up, and you load her in and then deal with dad, and the City, and the B of A, and that electrical wiring that's about to cause a fire hazard, and oh, the giant tree just fell down in the back yard narrowly missing the house, all because the oversized earth-moving construction equipment of City of LA was pounding the ground so hard...

And you have not had time to pay bills or sort bills or look at anything or do any real work on the publishing business because you've been forced to attend a sudden new mandatory course downtown by the homecare workers union because you are a homecare worker taking care of the parents. Oh and you have to feed the cats and the dogs (two dogs at that point, both dead now). So you pay whoever whatever bills come up with whatever money you've got, and you don't know what part of it is what.

Two days after my father passed away in the hospital, after finally being placed in the nursing home (after weeks of making arrangements), I had to drive to court on his behalf in another town and tell the judge he could not appear because he was dead.

What royalties?

If you have the human strength to manage bookkeeping in all this, I salute you. I certainly couldn't.

*And yes, it was wrong what I did.

*That's all I have to say. Carry on.


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## Barbara Morgenroth (May 14, 2010)

And dead dogs, too.
Enough already.


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## Bluebonnet (Dec 15, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Dear folks,
> 
> There is one point I need to say and no, it does NOT excuse anything, nor am I trying to, but just need to say this just to show you where I am coming from.
> 
> ...


I am sorry all these things happened to you. However, there are people, such as a CPA or even an ordinary bookkeeper, who could have handled the Norilana accounts for you -- he/she could have done the calculation and distribution of the royalty payments, if you were unable to find the time to do it. This situation has been going on for too many years.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Just a quick question, Vera. During all of this, all of these years, you didn't write or publish anything?


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

My advice is to stop digging, madam. As bad as your personal situation was, it does not excuse your actions.


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## LovelyDesignStudio (Feb 21, 2011)

Bluebonnet said:


> I am sorry all these things happened to you. However, there are people, such as a CPA or even an ordinary bookkeeper, who could have handled the Norilana accounts for you -- he/she could have done the calculation and distribution of the royalty payments, if you were unable to find the time to do it. This situation has been going on for too many years.


Agreed. Vera, if you did not have the funds to pay for an accountant, you could have possibly found someone who could work with you on this for free or at a reasonable price that you could afford.

I do feel bad about your situation, I really do. I hope that you can get through this Vera.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Vera, you need help of the non-financial sort. 
Counseling, both in terms of managing your crises and your own mental and physical heath, would probably help a lot.

Get your mother into palliative care - surely there is some sort of system down there? (Again, counseling would help you find those resources). If you don't look after yourself, you're not going to help anyone else.

Stop the fundraiser and remove yourself from the criticism of strangers. I'm now seeing this issue popping up at G+, too.  Why add this to your pile?
If your current authors are willing to stick this out they'll stick it out for another six months until you can figure out another source of income. Get yourself well, reduce stress, take stock, and see how you can put your talents to work without involving others' finances.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Monique said:


> Just a quick question, Vera. During all of this, all of these years, you didn't write or publish anything?


If I recall through the general haze of it all, I did some publishing work, but very little. I remember bringing a computer to the hospital and I worked in my mom's room, doing something, but I don't remember what. There was no internet connection.


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## LovelyDesignStudio (Feb 21, 2011)

Monique said:


> Just a quick question, Vera. During all of this, all of these years, you didn't write or publish anything?


I did see that she did some crowdfunding for two books. The only one I know of as of recent was this one: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cobweb-forest-enter-me

I don't understand any of this. How could you crowdfund and publish another book while you were going through all of this?


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## blakebooks (Mar 10, 2012)

Vera: I have had money stolen from me. I know what it feels like. 

You. Stole. You have countless rationalizations for why that harsh word is ill-used. Every episode of COPS has plentiful folks who are down on their luck.  

"I didn't really steal. I just took other people's money and used it myself. And I keep saying I'm decent and want to help the authors. Why doesn't anyone get my perspective?"

Well, Vera, because through all your lengthy comments, there is this thread of you being a victim of circumstance. You aren't. Your authors are. For believing you would pay them the money THEY earned with THEIR books. The books they worked hard on, that made money, that you stole and used for personal expenses. Perhaps I'm the wrong guy to sell this line to.

I don't mean to pile on, but here's what you should say: I am a thief. I have plentiful excuses for why. Now I want you to make good on my debts.

The more I dig into this, the more disconcerting it becomes. Contrary to your claims, you are not one of the good guys.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Thank you for your various comments, everyone, they are all appreciated.

I am considering all that is being said, and the fact that my authors desperately need their money now, and not months down the road.  And this is the first thing I have been able to do in years to help them.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

In answer to Vera's question. Yes. I would have found the time. Better yet, I would NEVER have put the money coming in from my authors into my personal account but opened a new one.  I only publish myself and I still have a separate business account for Doomed Muse Press. 

There is no excuse for stealing from people. Ever.  You had terrible business practices and you let that give you a reason to steal. I'm sorry your life sucks, but you need to stop doing things wrong. You are still stealing. The steps you need to stop are very simple.

Get a business account and make sure all LS and other monies go directly to it.
Hire an accountant to distribute the funds and figure out who is owed what. Stop touching money that doesn't belong to you and recognize you are not responsible enough or capable enough to handle other people's funds.
Get counseling. I echo Quiss on that. There is discount/sliding scale mental health options in just about every State. 
Stop the Indiegogo campaign. Again, you are not fit to handle other people's money.
Close Norilana books and give back ALL books to the people who own them, even if authors told you they wanted you to keep having them, just don't do it anymore. Again, you are not capable of running a small press right now and you've proven it over and over. Stop it. Get help. Then focus on your own works until you become solvent.


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## Darren Wearmouth (Jan 28, 2013)

blakebooks said:


> Vera: I have had money stolen from me. I know what it feels like.
> 
> You. Stole. You have countless rationalizations for why that harsh word is ill-used. Every episode of COPS has plentiful folks who are down on their luck.
> 
> ...


I found this comment the most telling -

_So I used all the money the books generated for personal stuff . . . I am, in fact, still using these monies as they come in . . . Your contributions will wind up in a special account that I just opened up._

So, if the kickstarter clears the historical debt, what happens to the one still being accumulated? Where is the contrition and accountability?

I don't mean to wade in, I really don't, but...


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

L.L. Akers said:


> Vera,
> Many of us have gone out on a limb to suggest you didn't 'mean to' steal... However, with statements like that^ it makes it hard to defend/believe you, with the whole world knowing you still continued to write and publish (and create your own covers?) for your own personal books--an entire trilogy of chubby novels--yet you couldn't sit down TWICE a YEAR to crunch numbers!?


The year 2013 was the first full year I was able to work completely -- before that, 2012 was my own medical year of surgery and recuperation.

That 300,000+ word trilogy was written last year (with all my living resources and energy going toward it) as a specific business plan to to get me back on track and not be homeless. Because of it, in ebook income, I am almost there. It is what is going to help me pay the royalties. But it is not soon enough.

If I had not written those three books last year, mom and I would have been significantly worse off, and likely homeless. it would have helped no one, and not my authors.

Getting back on track is the only solid long term way I see of being able to repay everyone.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

1001nightspress said:


> But you spent money on BookBub ads for your own books, and on NetGalley slots for your own books. People are trying to suggest that that money should have gone to the authors who earned it first, before funding more things for you. You have to pay your authors on the schedule you contractually agreed to. This all needs to be handled by someone else now. A lawyer, the courts, an accountant, I don't know. But someone who has access to all the information and can start working out payment schedules.


I spent the Indigogo amounts raised last year for the marketing of the books in the trilogy and basic livelihood, and it was intended as such, to boost the whole thing. And it helped. I would not be indoors now, if not for it.

If I had not run those ads, I don't know what we would have done. At all.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Darren Wearmouth said:


> I found this comment the most telling -
> 
> _So I used all the money the books generated for personal stuff . . . I am, in fact, still using these monies as they come in . . . Your contributions will wind up in a special account that I just opened up._
> 
> ...


It's okay, it's a valid question.

I have taken two and a half weeks in January to count all the back royalties owed up to the end of 2013, for authors who are no longer with me and for authors who still are -- everyone.

The amounts for this year will be counted in the coming months, because I must take care of this first.

I have a business plan for THIS year that builds on last year's -- I am writing another trilogy in ebook, and it is next up. By the end of this year with the new trilogy out I would be able to pay the newest royalties accrued in 2014, all by myself, AT LAST.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> It's okay, it's a valid question.
> 
> I have taken two and a half weeks in January to count all the back royalties owed up to the end of 2013, for authors who are no longer with me and for authors who still are -- everyone.
> 
> ...


So you are going to put the money that your author's books are earning RIGHT NOW into a separate account and pay 2013 royalties? Because that would be a huge step, ie to stop stealing from your authors and stop using money that doesn't belong to you to pay bills.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Doomed Muse said:


> So you are going to put the money that your author's books are earning RIGHT NOW into a separate account and pay 2013 royalties? Because that would be a huge step, ie to stop stealing from your authors and stop using money that doesn't belong to you to pay bills.


That was the plan. After the current Indigogo ends and whatever it raises will be disbursed to the authors though that new account at the credit union, I was going to keep it for the new author royalties accruing from January 1, 2014.

I used $25 of my own money to open that CU account, so all it has is that $25 which will go toward the authors.

And meanwhile in my other regular bank account at a completely other bank we now have $50 left for food to last us until the end of the month, when the new money comes in. Not a bad deal actually, we've lived on less. 

Now I am waiting so that I can order checks for that new authors account next month with the new money from Amazon (lord bless it).

One step at a time.

It has become my life. ONE STEP AT A TIME.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

I keep hearing people say she should have had a professional do the book work. They dont work free and if she truly is living pay to pay or penny to penny then I imagine that even low cost would have been to much for her to pay. I am not saying what she did was right, let me make that clear. What I AM saying is IF everything was coming in in the one lump sum she says it was and she was dealing with a plate that was overflowing, then it is understandable how she made such a HUGE mistake especially if the business model wasnt the best. 

  Everyone handles things differently and While I dont know her, I dont doubt she did the best she could under the circumstances. NOW she is trying to repay her authors the money owed and set things right.  OK, that is highly commendable. HOW is she doing that if she is barely getting by on the money coming in? She is trying to do a crowd funding after she says she could not get a loan and a job outside the home is not a reality for her due to her mothers condition.  As for the funds from the previous crowd funding... I have dealt with BofA before and they WILL twist you and turn you and suck you dry so I have no doubt that is what they did to her.(its what they did to my father MANY times till he was almost bankrupt) As for the other stuff I have no clue but its moot at this point to me because the money is already GONE,she no longer has it nor does she have a way to get any of it back. Simply put, She cant work with money she doesnt have at this point in time.

    Would it be better if someone else took over control of the money? Yes, it would. Should just anyone do it? NO. Yet for all the HARSH criticism I see coming from people I have yet to see anyone step up and say "you know what Vera, I will take control of this money and make sure it goes to the authors directly." If I did not have so much on my plate already I would offer. Vera has already admitted, in her own way, she screwed up, BADLY.  The reason I think a lot of people dont see this is because of the way things are worded. I know because I can be like that myself sometimes. While I am beating the cr** out of myself inside for a total screw up people will tell me I have no remorse for ever making a mistake and will pound me over the head with it for YEARS to come. 

    All that being said. Yes I have great compassion for Vera and the authors involved. No I will not be donating. I have my first book that I am working on and am struggling with how to come up with the funds to pay for the editing and formatting etc. All that being said I WILL wish Vera luck in sorting out her life and money issues.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You've got the account already. So now just go into LS or CS or wherever you have the books that aren't yours published through and change it so that the money from them goes straight into that account. Get your personal business out of the business business.  It'll be a lot tougher to keep stealing from the authors that way, hopefully, not to mention simpler for you to NOT touch that money except to pay people what they are owed.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

And cancel the Indiegogo campaign and refuse the funds you've already got pledged. A third-party can start a new one if that's deemed desireable by the authors. But you have no business being involved in it. The goal of a project like that is to help them, not you. You should step completely aside.


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## Enoch St. John (Feb 27, 2014)

I am a fairly street smart guy, I will leave it at that. This woman is a con-artist. If anyone was owed money by this person they could sue her. This is all an elaborate con, the stories of hardship, the various charity campaigns, all a setup. She can not be shamed because she is not the pathetic character she created, she is an entirely different one.


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## Quiss (Aug 21, 2012)

Enoch St. John said:


> I am a fairly street smart guy, I will leave it at that. This woman is a con-artist. If anyone was owed money by this person they could sue her. This is all an elaborate con, the stories of hardship, the various charity campaigns, all a setup. She can not be shamed because she is not the pathetic character she created, she is an entirely different one.


This is not the place to breeze in and make unsubstantiated accusations. Even if you have proof of that, this isn't the place.


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## Enoch St. John (Feb 27, 2014)

Quiss said:


> This is not the place to breeze in and make unsubstantiated accusations. Even if you have proof of that, this isn't the place.


I am direct. I have not really said anything that the collective whole has not already come to understand.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Enoch St. John said:


> I am a fairly street smart guy, I will leave it at that. This woman is a con-artist. If anyone was owed money by this person they could sue her. This is all an elaborate con, the stories of hardship, the various charity campaigns, all a setup. She can not be shamed because she is not the pathetic character she created, she is an entirely different one.


Don't forget that she is actually someone well known, personally, to most of the writers she published. Her issues are utterly verifiable. I have no problem with people judging her for what she has done -- because you know, there is plenty to criticize. It's not necessary to pile on additional speculative accusations.

Camille


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Enoch St. John said:


> I am direct. I have not really said anything that the collective whole has not already come to understand.


You know nothing about me.

I am not going to argue with you but I wish you well.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Enoch St. John said:


> I am direct. I have not really said anything that the collective whole has not already come to understand.


The collective whole, minus all the people who actually know her or who don't subscribe to your theory.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> And meanwhile in my other regular bank account at a completely other bank we now have $50 left for food to last us until the end of the month, when the new money comes in. Not a bad deal actually, we've lived on less.


Tomorrow morning, go down to your local Community Services Office or the Department of Health and Human Services (whatever it is called in your state) and apply for assistance. There are funds available for elders and there are assistance programs that can help with food, utilities, and even housing. There are other alternatives than taking the money that belongs to your authors.


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## Enoch St. John (Feb 27, 2014)

LeeBee said:


> The collective whole, minus all the people who actually know her or who don't subscribe to your theory.


Fair enough. We all process information differently. I must say if I saw things the way you do, I would send her some money, as much as I could.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

The dilemma:

D*amned if you do, d*amned if you don't.

I shut down the Indiegogo now and continue focusing on aggressively rebuilding my income by means of my own ebooks as I did last year, then I will be accused of continuing to sit on the authors money while doing my own stuff.

What is the solution?

Because the ONLY reason I am doing this Indiegogo is to repay my authors faster than I would on my own otherwise.


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## Micah Ackerman (Feb 16, 2014)

I have compassion for what Vera is going through, but everyone has had it rough, I've had both parents with Cancer too. 

It sucks, but obviously the accounts need to be separated and a third party should handle everything.

I think the crowdfunding thing is an awful idea, because it made all of these personal issues public. There was no reason for that. When you went to the general public for money you made you and your authors business everyone's business. Not only have you taken your authors money, but you have dragged them into this panhandling scheme. I don't see how anyone can trust someone with money who did this exact thing and then spent that money.

Vera, the state of Vermont has elderly programs, a sort of senior wellfare program that will help your mother pay for her bills. That's not even including social security, unemployment (for you) etc. etc. If you are honestly saying that you have 50$ in the bank to eat with for the rest of the month... GO TO THE STATE.

You can't use author monies to feed yourself even if you're starving, it just isn't right and you don't know that some of your authors aren't also starving. Your feeding yourself before them, in that case.

I think that even the people who are being extremely hard on you are making great points. This is a pattern that seems to have been going on for what 6 years? What's to stop you from just using this Crowdfunding thing like all of the other ones and all of the other monies? What's the difference between the royalties now coming in that you're stealing and the money that comes in from Crowdfunding? If we're supposed to donate are we supposed to believe that you'll pinky promise to use that money solely to pay your authors?

Just My Opinion
Micah


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> The dilemma:
> 
> D*amned if you do, d*amned if you don't.
> 
> ...


Honestly, the indiegogo campaign looks bad. Really bad. If you want to make good, work to pay the off your debts with your own money. IN ADDITION TO THAT, offer to pay for a third party to audit the books and handle an indiegogo campaign with the support of the authors and no direct involvement on your part. It's not about paying your debts for you, it's about helping out authors who got screwed.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Robert E. Keller said:


> Vera, I have a question for you, if you don't mind me asking. Is there any way someone can know for sure if your authors are actually owed the (roughly) $19,000? The reason I ask is because a suspicious mind could question your integrity and suggest that maybe the authors are really owed, say, $6000 and you intend to pocket the difference with no one being the wiser. Maybe if there was some way you could prove that *A:* Your authors are actually owed that much and *B:* _All_ of the donated money will go to them, then people might be more inclined to support the cause. That's the most helpful suggestion I could come up with.


Definitely a valid question.

Yes, all they would have to do is login to the Norilana LSI account and run all the query reports for each title. Horrible work, took me over two weeks. I printed out large LSI annual reports to compare royalty rates and whole sale discount rates and print cost, times units sold, etc. Also used Trackerbox for some of it, which helped a little.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> The dilemma:
> 
> D*amned if you do, d*amned if you don't.
> 
> ...


As I mentioned above, consider applying for food and housing assistance through your state. If you don't have the income to travel too far then you might qualify for food and housing programs; if your health problems have hindered your ability to work and you are taking care of your mother who is also living with a disability then you might qualify for assistance. The state's help will cover your everyday living expenses even if it is only for a few months or years.

You mentioned above that you used $25 of your own money; was this money that you earned from your own work or was this money taken from your publishing activities? If it is money that you earned, see if you can continue to put aside $25 a month. Divide that money up and begin paying your authors back. If that $25 came from your publishing activities then that was money owed to your authors; immediately stop taking that money and put all of the money into that new bank account. Set up a payment plan even if it is $5 a month. At least they know that you are working towards repaying them and not continuing to take from them.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Moist_Tissue said:


> Tomorrow morning, go down to your local Community Services Office or the Department of Health and Human Services (whatever it is called in your state) and apply for assistance. There are funds available for elders and there are assistance programs that can help with food, utilities, and even housing. There are other alternatives than taking the money that belongs to your authors.


We're already on all the assistance we could be on -- fuel assistance, and mom is on food stamps and her SSI. That's how low the POD LSI income has fallen.

Oh, and I forgot to add, there are the annual $12 catalog fees per title, LSI takes out about $250-$300 on the average every month out of the already tiny amount they pay me (some months it's close to half of what they pay me), for those dratted book catalog fees. I have close to 300 titles in print, divide that by twelve months.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> We're already on all the assistance we could be on -- fuel assistance, and mom is on food stamps and her SSI. That's how low the POD LSI income has fallen.
> 
> Oh, and I forgot to add, there are the annual $12 catalog fees per title, LSI takes out about $250-$300 on the average every month out of the already tiny amount they pay me (some months it's close to half of what they pay me), for those dratted book catalog fees. I have close to 300 titles in print, divide that by twelve months.


But are you on assistance? You mentioned that your mother is receiving SSI and food stamps. Have you provided details about your own health issues and asked them to revisit the food stamps? Your mom might qualify but so could you.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> The dilemma:
> 
> D*amned if you do, d*amned if you don't.
> 
> ...


The authors, who by all accounts, have been waiting over three years to get paid, are in the situation many authors have found themselves in. I'm sure for those who haven't written their royalties as a loss, you can (without the help of strangers) set up a payment schedule for them. I'm sure they would love to receive ANYTHING as opposed to nothing. The only thing this campaign is doing is letting you off the hook for the $19,000 you took from them. And honestly, that's really a bad message to send to anyone.

Anyone who gives to this fund is not really helping the author, they are helping you exempt yourself of the monies you owe them.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> We're already on all the assistance we could be on -- fuel assistance, and mom is on food stamps and her SSI. That's how low the POD LSI income has fallen.
> 
> Oh, and I forgot to add, there are the annual $12 catalog fees per title, LSI takes out about $250-$300 on the average every month out of the already tiny amount they pay me (some months it's close to half of what they pay me), for those dratted book catalog fees. I have close to 300 titles in print, divide that by twelve months.


Shut down the publishing company. It's obviously more than you can handle. Then go get a job. Vermont has plenty of programs to help take care of your mother while you do. Set aside some money every month to pay your authors.

But, I guess people have already pledged close to $1,000 in only two days, so maybe you feel you don't have to do that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

You are asking other people to pay back money you stole. That's why people are mad about this. That campaign is wrong on every level. I know you think you are trying to do good, but what you are doing isn't good or right or fair. You are *still* stealing from your authors. You still let money that is for them come into your personal account instead of a business account and then you spend it instead of paying it to the people who own it. That's stealing. Make all the excuses you want, but you are continuing to steal.  That money isn't yours. It shouldn't be going into your personal account.

The steps you should take have been repeated here over and over. Let me lay them out again.

1) Make sure all payments from LS go into a business account and figure out the royalties owed and start paying them. Don't give excuses about how you don't have time. You could stop posting terrible defenses of yourself on forums and use that time to actually sort out your financial mess.
2) Stop the campaign. It's wrong to ask people to fund theft.
3) Go to the state and get help.  I bet there are more programs available than what you are already getting.
4) Stop publishing other people's books. You are not good at this. You cannot handle the business side of things. Immediately revert all rights to all parties and let them know you are sorry, but you just can't publish them anymore and are closing Norilana Books.

These steps will go a long way toward rebuilding your credibility and your life.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Moist_Tissue said:


> But are you on assistance? You mentioned that your mother is receiving SSI and food stamps. Have you provided details about your own health issues and asked them to revisit the food stamps? Your mom might qualify but so could you.


I'll see what they say this year. when I take in my own tax return to the VT state EDS office for review in April.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Doomed Muse said:


> You are asking other people to pay back money you stole. That's why people are mad about this. That campaign is wrong on every level. I know you think you are trying to do good, but what you are doing isn't good or right or fair. You are *still* stealing from your authors. You still let money that is for them come into your personal account instead of a business account and then you spend it instead of paying it to the people who own it. That's stealing. Make all the excuses you want, but you are continuing to steal. That money isn't yours. It shouldn't be going into your personal account.
> 
> The steps you should take have been repeated here over and over. Let me lay them out again.
> 
> ...


This. This. This.

Seriously. Shut down the company. Revert _all_ rights. Keep your own books up and stop everything having to do with anyone else's work.

Get jobs editing, etc. Whatever skills you have, use them to earn money to pay off your debts.

And for the love of Pete, stop the campaign and refuse the money pledged.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

Vera Nazarian said:


> I'll see what they say this year. when I take in my own tax return to the VT state EDS office for review in April.


Now I wonder if you won't qualify for the help (help which should have been tapped into long ago) because your income has been inflated because of the money taken from your authors.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> 2) Stop the campaign. It's wrong to ask people to fund theft.


She's not going to do this. It's working! Almost a thousand bucks in two days. That's good money.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

MichaelWallace said:


> She's not going to do this. It's working! Almost a thousand bucks in two days. That's good money.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If you are, please don't because I am too tired to understand this.


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## LeeBee (Feb 19, 2014)

Vera, please. Stop replying. Whatever else you do or don't do, whatever advice offered here that you take or discard - stop replying.


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## ElaStein (Feb 8, 2014)

Why is it titled "Please Help Me Pay My Wonderful Authors the Royalties *Owed *Them!" instead of "Please Help Me Pay My Wonderful Authors the Royalties* I Owe* Them!" - I think it would be fair to phrase it properly when asking others to donate their own money.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Seriously, Vera,

I think it's pretty clear that you can't be a small business owner or a full-time author. You're just not making enough money to make ends meet. When that happens, authors and small business owners go out and try to get a full-time job--or part-time work. Whatever they can get that doesn't depend on the uncertainty of selling books. You need a steady and regular pay cheque so you won't be constantly asking strangers to bail you out when your money is short.


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## GUTMAN (Dec 22, 2011)

I don't know Vera. Others here do, and they are telling us she has a good heart. I will believe them.

The problem with this campaign is that while it may_ not be fraud,_ fraud _can look like this_. That's the problem.

Until it's shut down, until the publishing business is closed, until Vera concentrates on her own business and does not continue to siphon off funds, it will smell like what it smells like.

Please, Vera: do the right thing here. Shut down the campaign. Contact an author you owe royalties to and ask THEM to set up a campaign, if you want.

If you take this money your reputation may never recover. Concentrate on your own work, and pay back out of that. Listen to the wise voices here, and get help.

Good luck.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Vera, a few folk have suggested editing or cover design. Are these not things you can do work-wise from home? These seem like ways to earn supplemental income beyond writing. You could have sure income in hand now for a few hours work per day, then write your books for a few hours on top of that. Put in an 8-hour work day divided between editing/design and writing, and that still leaves 8 hours to care for your mom and 8 hours for sleep.

Conversely, perhaps you could trade these services for royalties owed with some of the authors who might be self-publishing now.


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## Courtney Milan (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm just going to throw this out there.

When we talk about intentional acts, we typically can mean one of two things. Take, for instance, a person who burns a house to the ground when someone is inside.

1. The person who burns the house down because they know that someone is inside, and they want that person to die.
2. The person who burns the house down because they want the insurance payout. They know that person is inside, and are indifferent to their presence.

Both of these are intentional acts.

Those people who are saying that Vera didn't intend to do anything wrong... I'm just not sure how you can say that, on the basis of her admitted facts. She knew that she got a lump sum payment that included money that should have been earmarked for others. She knew that she spent it all.

She didn't WANT her authors to be without the money she owed to them, but she surely knew that was a direct result of the actions that she took.

That's an intentional act. She intended it. Everything Vera has said demonstrates that she intentionally acted.

Now, whether we can feel sympathy for her is a completely separate question. I feel a lot of sympathy for some people who are in jail as the result of their intentional acts. I wish those people hadn't been in that situation.

I also might have convicted them if I were on the jury.

Let's not confuse one question with the other.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

VictoriaS said:


> Why is it titled "Please Help Me Pay My Wonderful Authors the Royalties *Owed *Them!" instead of "Please Help Me Pay My Wonderful Authors the Royalties* I Owe* Them!" - I think it would be fair to phrase it properly when asking others to donate their own money.


I noticed this too. Lance Armstrong did this a lot during his "confession" on Oprah. _"Emma got run over"_ as opposed to, _"*I *ran Emma over"_. A way of distancing yourself from the act.


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## Enoch St. John (Feb 27, 2014)

WORD, Courtney.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Thank you for your comments, everyone.

I have made the decision to shut down the Indiegogo campaign.

I have also just contacted all my authors that I will be cancelling their books by April 1, 2014. This is to give them time to transfer titles if needed into their own or other publisher LSI accounts.

As for royalties owned, I will be working now to repay them all.

Meanwhile Norilana Books will only publish public domain and my own work.

That is all for now. 

I'll come back and reply to the rest later, thank you.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> Vera, I have a hard time believing that now, March 2014, is when you've finally been able to "catch your breath".
> 
> <snip>


Wow. Thank you for compiling that info, Emily.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Thank you for your comments, everyone.
> 
> I have made the decision to shut down the Indiegogo campaign.
> 
> ...


The absolute RIGHT thing to do.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

As you might imagine, we've been monitoring this thread pretty closely... and have received several reports on it. This is just a reminder to all involved to refrain from personal attacks. The discussion can be held here, we believe, in civil tones without name-calling or labeling of those involved.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> I have made the decision to shut down the Indiegogo campaign.
> 
> I have also just contacted all my authors that I will be cancelling their books by April 1, 2014. This is to give them time to transfer titles if needed into their own or other publisher LSI accounts.
> 
> ...


I am very glad to hear this.


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## KBoards Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Emily: that's an 18-month period if your dates are accurate.

I think the facts are laid out already in detail in this thread, and it seems Vera is responding as some had hoped. I don't there is a useful purpose served if the thread takes on the tone of everybody piling on.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Oh, and I forgot to add, there are the annual $12 catalog fees per title, LSI takes out about $250-$300 on the average every month out of the already tiny amount they pay me (some months it's close to half of what they pay me), for those dratted book catalog fees. I have close to 300 titles in print, divide that by twelve months.


Then close the LSI account and move everything to Createspace. If you aren't selling that many copies in print anyway, there is NO reason to be paying fees to LSI when CS is free.

When you are in a financial hole, the first thing you do is CUT EXPENSES. The cataloging fees are an unnecessary expense. Get rid of them. Move everything to CS. $300 a month is money that should be going toward the repayment of your authors.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As you have. 

Betsy


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Vera Nazarian said:


> Thank you for your comments, everyone.
> 
> I have made the decision to shut down the Indiegogo campaign.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Vera. Those are the right steps to make in my opinion. Hopefully clearing your plate like this will allow you to focus on your own income and repaying what you already owe without racking up more debt. Hopefully this provides a relief to you in the long run as well, since I know this stuff is stressful. Stopping stealing and asking others to fund it is absolutely the right decision and I think it will work out better for you both personally and professionally.


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## Crime fighters (Nov 27, 2013)

This is not an attack and I hope nobody sees it as one, but here I go;

I think this entire debacle is a useful reminder that starting and running a press, no matter how small or big, isn't something to take lightly. It's all fine and dandy when we publish our own works, because it's just our own arses on the line. I've seen many small presses fail and I think a key reason why is because those running them never should have ran them in the first place. They didn't have the knowledge and/or business sense to succeed and ultimately take down their signed authors with them when they collapse. 

I feel bad for Vera, I think she took on far more than she could. I don't think it was ever really in her best interest to start up a publishing company, whether or not it was by happenstance. That's not a direct knock on her, but again goes back to the first line in this thread. 

Everything else I would say has already been said in this thread. I'm glad the campaign was shut down and the authors will be getting their rights to their books; that's something that some less fortunate authors were unable to do when other presses went under. If nothing else, I hope Vera has learned lessons from this; whether that lesson be that she needs to understand her limits or that she can't steal authors royalties. 

I think she knows what she did was wrong and I don't know where the conversation goes from there. IF what Vera says is true (the series of unfortunate events), it doesn't make what she did right, but it does cause a pause (no matter how slight) as to why she did it. We can crucify her or we can hope for the best. 

That's what I'm doing. Hoping for the best. Hoping that these authors will get what's due to them (and in a timely manner). 

One last note; theft is punishable by both civil and criminal courts. I hope this can all get resolved before (if) it get's to that.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

(NOTE: this comment was in response to several comments on the previous page.  Don't confuse it as a response to those directly above it, which were posted while I typed.)

Look folks. Let's not be "internet lawyers" about this.

It would be one thing if the authors in question were crying out for justice... but they aren't.  Most of them are much more familiar with the situation than you will ever be.  They don't have to look up the timeline or figure out which facts have credibility, because they already know.  They lived it.

And that's part of the problem here.  This is an ongoing issue which originally was just being discussed among people who were actually already very familiar with it.  Most of whom had a dog in this race of some sort or other.  Most knew all the parties concerned long before any of this began.  Now suddenly this is being discussed by people who know nothing other than what is being bandied about on the internet about it.

Suddenly we get to make up our own reality, and if we can pull out enough "facts" we can win the internet.  Well, you know what?  This isn't a competition.  This isn't theoretical.  This is a real situation.  If you don't have a dog in this race, and you're not actually trying to help anyone involved, then you're talking through your hat.

And nothing anyone is going to learn on this thread is going to be enough to trump what the people involved know.

Camille


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2014)

daringnovelist said:


> Now suddenly this is being discussed by people who know nothing other than what is being bandied about on the internet about it.


It got bandied about the internet because Vera held out her hand looking for money from strangers. Again. Nobody went and dug this up on their own. She is the one who opened the door.

And when you ask for money for your "business" then you have to expect "creditors" to look into your affairs to determine whether or not you are a good fiscal risk.


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## Moist_Tissue (Dec 6, 2013)

It's being bandied about as a cautionary tale. It serves as a caution for those authors looking to publish with small presses; if nothing else, this situation should guide them in asking the right questions about contracts, royalty payment schedules, and contingency plans if things crumble. It also serves as a caution for those of us who might think of publishing other people's works; I've had friends approach me with questions about publishing, and I'm sure that one of them will eventually ask me to publish for them. 

I think some feel so passionately about this because we are in a position to influence the publisher's decisions now.


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Vera,

Just a note about refunding re: indiegogo. They will not refund donations. You will have to do that to each contributor.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It got bandied about the internet because Vera held out her hand looking for money from strangers. Again. Nobody went and dug this up on their own. She is the one who opened the door.
> 
> And when you ask for money for your "business" then you have to expect "creditors" to look into your affairs to determine whether or not you are a good fiscal risk.


You're not one of the people I was responding to. (You've said helpful things, and discussed it constructively.)

No, what I meant was.... the discussion here and on PV wasn't begun by any of the affected parties. Neither Vera nor any of the authors started this thread to beg anyone here for money. People posted this here (and there) in order to, basically, gossip about it.

Which is fine. It's one thing to watch something going on elsewhere in the world that is none of your business, and to talk about in a constructive way. Maybe help each other avoid problems we're seeing in those other places. Warn each other about pitfalls.

It's a whole different thing to bring it up in order to pile on with speculative arguments and accusations. But more particularly (and what I got into this about) is the tendency to treat the speculations of armchair lawyers as credible "truth" without any acknowledgement that in this case, there are people who actually know the real truth in detailed, up close and personal detail.

And what the armchair lawyers speculate about doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Again, I didn't see you -- Julie -- doing this. You've kept this on a pragmatic basis and haven't claimed to know the truth of what was in Vera's head or pretended to be an arbiter of which information out there is credible or isn't.

Camille


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## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> No, what I meant was.... the discussion here and on PV wasn't begun by any of the affected parties. Neither Vera nor any of the authors started this thread to beg anyone here for money. People posted this here (and there) in order to, basically, gossip about it.


No. That's not why this thread was started. This was started to serve as a warning for others, and hopefully, to get Vera to do the right thing. I'd like to think this thread helped in both regards.

The campaign was a public plea for money. Characterizing it as anything else is disingenuous.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

emilycantore said:


> Vera, I have a hard time believing that now, March 2014, is when you've finally been able to "catch your breath".
> 
> Even posting on kboards (http://www.kboards.com/index.php?action=profile;u=48088;area=showposts;start=1275) - you arrived here July 15, 2011 (two years, eight months ago) - shows that you were functioning on some level. You're writing responses, promoting your books, engaging with people. You present a very different person to the one you describe in the horrible week you wrote about.
> 
> ...


Emily,

Everything I've claimed is true.

Here are some points to know about me -- I put on a brave face a whole lot when things are falling apart. You would not know it. Not ever. The worst times is when I am most "on" and high strung and workaholic mode. And I giggle a lot and crack jokes.

Things in real life are pretty stable now so I am not particularly stressed out which means my brain goes into pure fog haze. Plus now I am on blood pressure medication which helps.

I can post clever VERBAL things through the brain fog, while I cannot do basic math without repeating numbers and re-entering into a calculator, and I have to *sing* numbers to remember them, and translate them into my native first language Russian to do math, then back, nor can I remember the date or the time on the clock. I have trouble with my own phone number and address. Repeatedly. But I can compose a page of fiction in my sleep in a haze, easy as anything.

I had help moving from many people, friends, neighbors.

A friend paid for my KND sponsorship in exchange for services.

The LSI money I had in mid 2011 when I arrived in Vermont was more than I do now.

I wrote Mansfield Park and Mummies while bleeding to death in bed and popping iron supplements. and I joked online with people all through it.

During 2012 my medical/surgery year I still finished and illustrated a book (Pride and Platypus) on my last rope, and went into the hospital the next month after release date. As I convalesced I continued doing covers for other people in bed and other work.

I was working on a manuscript while lying in the ER bed waiting for a doctor.

It's all as it happened.

Not sure what else to say.

Forgot to mention, I hardly ever sleep. And I can go without sleep for close to three days straight, and have done so. so I can get a lot of creative work done.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> Oh come on Camille - Vera came out asking for $20,000 for royalties she didn't pay and people can't dig into it?


See my response to Julie above.

I am not saying this shouldn't be talked about - as a cautionary tale. Even as a situation that needs theoretical solutions. Julie, in particular, is a great example of speaking fairly and appropriately (as she always does).

I'm also not saying that it is wrong to sound an alarm to warn people about donating money or submitting books.

What I'm objecting to is these declarations that she's a liar and a cheat and criminal by people who simply aren't familiar enough with the case to make any such judgement. People pretending to speak for the authors in question when they have no idea what those authors actually think. (Who, in some cases, argue with the authors in question -- at least over on PV.)

Let's put this in perspective: this is a cautionary tale, yes. But it's also _gossip_. The opinions of the gossips don't trump those who are actually involved.

Camille


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

> No. That's not why this thread was started. This was started to serve as a warning for others, and hopefully, to get Vera to do the right thing. I'd like to think this thread helped in both regards.
> 
> The campaign was a public plea for money. Characterizing it as anything else is disingenuous.


Thank you, Monique, for this thread. It is vital information for anyone who wants to understand the risks involved in going with a small press publisher. Fortunately, at least Vera did give the rights back to her authors, apparently some presses sell them. I'm very sorry for Vera's personal tragedies.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Monique said:


> Vera,
> 
> Just a note about refunding re: indiegogo. They will not refund donations. You will have to do that to each contributor.


In which case I will then refund. I am still waiting to hear back from Indiegogo.

Thanks.


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

Monique said:


> No. That's not why this thread was started. This was started to serve as a warning for others, and hopefully, to get Vera to do the right thing. I'd like to think this thread helped in both regards.
> 
> The campaign was a public plea for money. Characterizing it as anything else is disingenuous.


I suppose I should have made that clearer: I don't oppose posting this as a warning. Nor am I trying to defend Vera. She got herself into a situation.

I'm objecting to where some people take these threads. It tends to be worse over on PV than here: it starts as a warning, but since most people are savvy enough to not need the warning, it quickly turns into a self-satisfied snark fest (over there). Here it tends to be more about the warning, but we still get the gratuitous piling on now and then.

Camille


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Then close the LSI account and move everything to Createspace. If you aren't selling that many copies in print anyway, there is NO reason to be paying fees to LSI when CS is free.
> 
> When you are in a financial hole, the first thing you do is CUT EXPENSES. The cataloging fees are an unnecessary expense. Get rid of them. Move everything to CS. $300 a month is money that should be going toward the repayment of your authors.


Thanks Julie, I'll be looking at it.


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## micki (Oct 8, 2010)

Vera, I have followed this thread and clearly could not offer any suitable suggestions. I do however, admire you for your open honesty and how you have handle the criticism. I only wish you well and sincerely hope you will be able to get yourself on the right track again.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> I suppose I should have made that clearer: I don't oppose posting this as a warning. Nor am I trying to defend Vera. She got herself into a situation.
> 
> I'm objecting to where some people take these threads. It tends to be worse over on PV than here: it starts as a warning, but since most people are savvy enough to not need the warning, it quickly turns into a self-satisfied snark fest (over there). Here it tends to be more about the warning, but we still get the gratuitous piling on now and then.
> 
> Camille


Thanks, Camille, I really appreciate it.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

micki said:


> Vera, I have followed this thread and clearly could not offer any suitable suggestions. I do however, admire you for your open honesty and how you have handle the criticism. I only wish you well and sincerely hope you will be able to get yourself on the right track again.


Thank you kindly, Micki.

And that goes for everyone.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

make a real contribution to the discussion, or move on. Lots of other threads here. This not entertainment.

EDIT: The posts that this is in response to were removed.

Betsy


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## antares (Feb 13, 2011)

I read of this situation first on The Passive Voice. The thread there had 282 comments when I saw it. I chose not to add to that tally.

Evidently, the majority of commenters in both fora judge that Ms Nazarian committed theft. Those who know her asked for mercy for her and said she is a nice person.

A few thoughts came to my mind (in no particular order):

There but for the grace of God go I.

Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. (Well, that means I won't throw that first stone.)

Judge not that you be not judged. (This quote is nonsense. It has always been nonsense. It will always be nonsense. We judge every day. We judge that it is better to get up, eat breakfast, and go to work than it is to wallow in bed. We judge that carrots are better for our health than chocolate. We judge that serial murder, slander, and pedophilia are things we will not do -- except in our novels. The saying should be "Condemn not that you be not condemned." I choose not to condemn.)

The quality of mercy is not strained. 
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven 
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest: 
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

Though justice be thy plea, consider this, 
That, in the course of justice, none of us 
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy.

I have no stake in this matter. Ms Nazarian did not harm me. I need not forgive her. I have suffered no wrong to forgive. Neither will I condemn her. I, too, am a sinner.

The past matter is between Ms Nazarian and the authors to whom she owes royalties. Given that Ms Nazarian's debts were discharged in bankruptcy, I doubt the authors have any legal claim against her. Unless the court found Ms Nazarian made a fraudulent transfer; that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. (Yeah, I was a bankruptcy lawyer.)

As for Ms Nazarian's new campaign to crowdsource her debts to her authors, forgiveness is about the past; trust is about the future. Were the funds paid to a trust with a trustee other than Ms Nazarian, I might contribute. But if I must depend on Ms Nazarian to collect and disburse the monies, I shall not contribute.

YMMV


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

To clarify a few things - unless she has refused to revert rights over breach of contract (non-payment), or continues to sell books she no longer has rights to, she is not stealing - not by US law definition nor is she in violation of copyright law. What she is doing is highly unethical. 

On the authors side of things, I've lived this. Exactly. And the reason we don't go screaming for justice or hiring attorneys to sue is because you can't get blood out of a turnip. By US law, authors are the very last on the list of account payable that a publisher owes money to. Everyone else gets paid before authors see a dime. And to add insult to injury, if the publisher still owns your rights, then they can sell them to the highest bidder and STILL not pay you because everyone else is in line first.

I think this is the crappiest thing EVER. But I don't make the laws. Bet your butt if I did, authors would be paid first, every single time. Without authors, there is no business. I fail to see why the creators of a product are treated as less important than the sewage bill or Internet. 

But unfortunately, that's the legal side of the situation.


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## Mr. Coffee Snob (Jun 27, 2011)

antares said:


> I read of this situation first on The Passive Voice. The thread there had 282 comments when I saw it. I chose not to add to that tally.
> 
> Evidently, the majority of commenters in both fora judge that Ms Nazarian committed theft. Those who know her asked for mercy for her and said she is a nice person.
> 
> ...


I actually favor being opinionated and judgmental concerning issues of potential wrongdoing. People spouting opinions and searching for justice has worked well for civilization for thousands of years (the hypocrisy of sinners notwithstanding), whereas being silent on issues or taking a very passive approach often leads to tyranny winning the day. This is just me spouting off with my opinion, of course.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Vera Nazarian said:


> We're already on all the assistance we could be on -- fuel assistance, and mom is on food stamps and her SSI. That's how low the POD LSI income has fallen.
> 
> Oh, and I forgot to add, there are the annual $12 catalog fees per title, LSI takes out about $250-$300 on the average every month out of the already tiny amount they pay me (some months it's close to half of what they pay me), for those dratted book catalog fees. I have close to 300 titles in print, divide that by twelve months.


These are all reasons why you should cease and desist from publishing your client's books, because you no longer can afford to, as a publisher. Give them their files so they can upload them for free to Createspace, which charges zero fees in advance, and let the books fall under self publishing, pay going directly to the authors.

You must stop being a business publisher for others, because your credibility to do so is gone. To continue to take any funds that come in for these people looks like acknowledged ongoing theft. If you are sorry for what you did to them in the past, then stop doing it in the present, and in the future.

You can leave your books and the public domain ones up, but just stop taking advantage of others. 
If you can not make enough off your own books, you do need to get a job, that's rough, but that is life. 
Since you are care taking for your mom, maybe invite another elderly woman in to watch at the same time. Contact Elder CARES services. They'll find you someone immediately.


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## dianasg (Jan 8, 2010)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> These are all reasons why you should cease and desisit from publishing your client's books, because you no longer can afford to, as a publishier. Give them their files so they can upload them for free to Createspace, which charges zero fees in advance, and let the books fall under self publishing, pay going directly to the authors.
> 
> You must stop being a business publisher for others, because your credibility to do so is gone. To continue to take any funds that come in for these people looks like acknowledged on-going theft. If you are sorry for what you did to them in the past, then stop doing it in the present, and in the future.
> 
> ...


In the last page or so of this thread, Vera has said she is going to stop acting as a publisher for all but her own books and the public domain ones. She is also shutting down the indiegogo campaign.

Good on you, Vera. Definitely the right thing to do.


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## Howietzer (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks OP for sharing this. I've only been around self-publishing for a couple of years and kboards is the main place I come to for information so I haven't seen this story before.

I find the whole situation to be a cautionary tale. People can be wronged even by those with good intentions (if good intention was actually the case).

Posts like these are very informative even though they can be laced with animosity. I appreciate and will continue to appreciate those who share this kind of information. Thx again OP.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

DianaGabriel said:


> In the last page or so of this thread, Vera has said she is going to stop acting as a publisher for all but her own books and the public domain ones. She is also shutting down the indiegogo campaign.
> 
> Good on you, Vera. Definitely the right thing to do.


Thanks for pointing that out. I'd asked a couple of times before, (over on PV) and back on page 2 of this thread, why she wasn't stopping, and Vera just ignored those requests at that time. I'm glad she's decided to stop taking their money.


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## cinisajoy (Mar 10, 2013)

You know what struck me as odd.  No one asked a very simple question.    She said she didn't know how to separate her money from the other money.  Ok that may be a fact.  Here would be my question to anyone that said that.  Did you know about how much money was yours and how much was others?  That would be the only question.  If that answer is yes then she knew full good and well what she was doing.  
I would also bet that she thought oh it is only this much, I will put it back next month.
Sympathies for her mother.


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## Rae Scott Studio (Jan 26, 2014)

Vera has already done everything people have called for her to do. She has shut down  the indiegogo AND the press except for public domain and her own books. She has admitted she messed up and is trying to set things right. She even outlined her PLAN for how she wanted to make things right publicly. At this point continuing to pile more onto the fire will serve no logical purpose in my mind.

Is what happened tragic? YES, Should this be a cautionary tale? YES. Can we sit here and debate the pros and cons of small presses and business practices? YES. Do we need to discuss this PARTICULAR press/situation any more? Thats up to you. Personally I wont revisit the thread because I can better serve my time working on my manuscript.  Have a great Saint Pats everyone!


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## daringnovelist (Apr 3, 2010)

emilycantore said:


> Something for people to remember - there are authors who have been directly hurt by Vera taking their royalties. How many of them had mortgages and ill family members?


Um, didn't you notice that the authors WANTED this fundraiser to continue and were not pleased with the people who screamed and got it canceled?

This is what I was talking about. People here and on PV are so busy trying to score points and be proven right that they are running roughshod over the victims.

Now, let's get this straight -- I don't think this fundraiser was a good idea. But though I have been watching this fiasco for years (I am close friends with many of the authors in question), I am not directly involved, so other than giving my advice where asked, I don't feel I have the right to interfere.

There are times when sounding the trumpet is a good idea. For instance, it's great to tell people "Oh, this sounds like a bad idea. I would not donate if you gave me a gold-plated guarantee." But when it comes to pressuring and pushing for certain actions, we should let the victims take the lead in which direction to go, rather than just using them to justify ourselves.

I hate it when people do that to me. It infuriates me when someone co-opts my experience to attack someone else. (Such as when someone used me to attack KB last year.) It really is a violation. I suppose that's why I respond here so strongly.

Camille


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

daringnovelist said:


> Um, didn't you notice that the authors WANTED this fundraiser to continue and were not pleased with the people who screamed and got it canceled?


Then those authors should start campaigns of their own. Fund their next books and offer ebooks as rewards. All they have to do is connect themselves to this situation, and I'm sure there are lots of people who wouldn't contribute to Vera's campaign who will chip in to theirs.

The reasoning behind her Indiegogo sounded good on the surface. The idea of the authors getting paid what had been stolen from them in one lump sum is a nice thought. But there were two major problems with the idea.

1. Would they get the money? I don't think this can be stressed enough. How much of that 19k was really owed in royalties, and how much would make its way into the authors' hands? I'm not confident in my answer to either of those.

2. This is the big ethical bugaboo. Even if the total amount had been raised and the authors were paid, what of the 19k Vera took and used that didn't belong to her. She gets to keep it without consequence? The fundraiser money was never hers--it would not be there under normal circumstances. If she inherited 19k or earned 19k from a hot selling book and used that money to pay authors, then she's paid them back--debt absolved. Using a fundraiser to get donations, money that she would not have otherwise, and giving that to authors means she simply gets to keep the 19k she stole. The donors are funding her theft. It's not as if she even planned to save the 19k and donate it somewhere else or pay it away from herself. It didn't belong to her, and she's keeping it. This point has been missed a _lot_.

The individual authors affected can try to raise money for themselves in various ways. Since she's returning their rights, self-publishing is an option. Get every place that has talked about this at length to advertise their ebooks, and they'll earn some money in a relatively short time. That's a fat lot better than what they've been getting.


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## FictionalWriter (Aug 4, 2010)

daringnovelist said:


> This is what I was talking about. People here and on PV are so busy trying to score points and be proven right that they are running roughshod over the victims.
> 
> Camille


Okay, I'm going to bite here. WHO EXACTLY are you saying has been running roughshod over the victims?? I'm not sure I'm interpreting this statement correctly.


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## Vera Nazarian (Jul 1, 2011)

cinisajoy said:


> You know what struck me as odd. No one asked a very simple question. She said she didn't know how to separate her money from t
> 
> 
> cinisajoy said:
> ...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

we're discussing this thread in Admin.  It's been useful as an ongoing conversation with Vera, who has been very brave and open to post in it.  However, picking blog posts from here and there across the Internet to post here is not helpful.  People who are interested can do searches for themselves and read a broader cross-section of what's being said.  If the conversation is going to continue (and, as I say, we're discussing it), let's keep the discussion centered here.  I'm going to remove a couple of posts and, for now at least, lock the thread while we discuss.

Betsy
KBoards Moderator

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Update (from Harvey):

We've discussed it and are making the call that this thread has run its course. The last several posts (pruned) have served only to have people digging deeper into their positions it, and becoming increasingly personal in tone.

If one purpose of the thread was to raise cautions about author-publisher agreements, that has been achieved. The thread will remain locked.


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