# is it really necessary? Graphic sex in books



## sheiler1963 (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm reading this book and I like most parts of it. The plot is engaging, the writing is good, most of the characters are well defined. However it has one fatal flaw. In every other chapter the protagonist has a mind blowing/out of this world sexual experience told with excruciating detail. The kind of sex that doesn't truly exist in the real world and it's in EVERY OTHER CHAPTER! Just when the plot is beginning to get good.......we have to stop while this person spends a few paragraphs having sex. *sigh* It has nothing to do with the story and it just takes away from the book all the things I was reading it for. 
Am I the only one who finds these gratuitous/obligatory sex scenes unnecessary and dull?


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

If I didn't have the slowest dial-up connection in the world, I would go back and search for a thread I think you would interesting--it was posted a couple months ago, and I think the title was "Sex Scenes?"

Anyway, I hear your frustration--there are some books that have a lot of gratuitous sex (some of the latter LKH books come to mind), just like there are some books that have gratuitous dialogue, gratuitous adjectives, gratuitous violence, gratuitous cussing, and gratuitous adverbs. It's frustrating for me as a reader when I read something, anything, in a book that's not important to plot or character development. That said, I have read books where the author used sex, violence, cussing, etc. to develop character or advance plot. I think in the discussion I mentioned, I talked about the sex scene in _Rosemary's Baby_--now in my mind, that scene was completely necessary to the plot and highlighted the horror of Rosemary's situation.


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## sheiler1963 (Nov 23, 2011)

purplepen79 said:


> If I didn't have the slowest dial-up connection in the world, I would go back and search for a thread I think you would interesting--it was posted a couple months ago, and I think the title was "Sex Scenes?"
> 
> Anyway, I hear your frustration--there are some books that have a lot of gratuitous sex (some of the latter LKH books come to mind), just like there are some books that have gratuitous dialogue, gratuitous adjectives, gratuitous violence, gratuitous cussing, and gratuitous adverbs. It's frustrating for me as a reader when I read something, anything, in a book that's not important to plot or character development. That said, I have read books where the author used sex, violence, cussing, etc. to develop character or advance plot. I think in the discussion I mentioned, I talked about the sex scene in _Rosemary's Baby_--now in my mind, that scene was completely necessary to the plot and highlighted the horror of Rosemary's situation.


Is this the one?

http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=93952.0

If a sexual thing is an integral part of the story then it makes sense. However having to stop my regular reading for some characters to have sex is like having to stop in the middle of a really great movie for a Viagra commercial.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Depends on how well it's written, including how well it fits into the story. If it detracts from the main story, I just skim over it....graphic or not. 

OTOH, goal-oriented as I tend to be in the types of books I read, if you can pull me in with a good sex scene...more power to you and thanks! lol

But like with anything else in the book...if you dont like it, just skip it. If that author ends up being a 'repeat offender,' move on.


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## purplepen79 (May 6, 2010)

sheiler1963 said:


> Is this the one?
> 
> http://www.kboards.com/index.php?topic=93952.0
> 
> If a sexual thing is an integral part of the story then it makes sense. However having to stop my regular reading for some characters to have sex is like having to stop in the middle of a really great movie for a Viagra commercial.


Yes, that's the thread--thank you for finding it! I really like your clever analogy about the Viagra commercial, by the way.


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## MariaESchneider (Aug 1, 2009)

Gratuitous any scene is annoying--be it political, violence, sex or long and boring gratuitous description.  For most of those things I'll stop reading.  For all of those things, I guarantee I'll be taking off a star or two if I'm reviewing it.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I always find them unnecessary and annoying; it can actually ruin an otherwise good book for me. Especially when I feel that the author might have put these scenes there just because "sex sells".


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Laura Lond said:


> I always find them unnecessary and annoying; it can actually ruin an otherwise good book for me. Especially when I feel that the author might have put these scenes there just because "sex sells".


I can see that 'sex sells' in certain genre, like romance, erotica, chick lit...but otherwise? Do they market that kind of thing for legal thrillers, forensic/police crime novels, sci-fi, horror, etc? Question...do they use it to market fantasy? (not familiar enough there).


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## DH_Sayer (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with previous posters. If it's necessary, bring it on. If its inclusion gives you pause, then it's not necessary.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

Lursa (was 9MMare) said:


> I can see that 'sex sells' in certain genre, like romance, erotica, chick lit...but otherwise? Do they market that kind of thing for legal thrillers, forensic/police crime novels, sci-fi, horror, etc? Question...do they use it to market fantasy? (not familiar enough there).


I have heard authors say that their agent or publisher would advise to add something sexual so that the story would look more "adult" and sell better - yes, even in the genres other than romance and erotica. It's almost like, "well, if it's G-rated, it's not grown-up stuff and no adult reader will want it." Somehow they are missing the fact that there are many adults who want the opposite. There are all kinds of book clubs and book groups who look for and share recommendations of "clean books."


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Laura Lond said:


> I have heard authors say that their agent or publisher would advice to add something sexual so that the story would look more "adult" and sell better - yes, even in the genres other than romance and erotica. It's almost like, "well, if it's G-rated, it's not grown-up stuff and no adult reader will want it." Somehow they are missing the fact that there are many adults who want the opposite. There are all kinds of book clubs and book groups who look for and share recommendations of "clean books."


I think it would seem just as strange to develop relationships in a book in any (adult) genre and not have it develop naturally into a sexual one, and to not include that in the story. I guess it just depends on how much space the author chooses to devote to it.

Perhaps the publishers have a better idea of the general reader' s preference (or think they do).


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## flipside (Dec 7, 2011)

It depends.

I can understand it getting in the way of the story, but sometimes, that becomes the "style" of the author which authors look forward to.

For example, I feel Anne Rice goes overboard with description, but hey, that's the appeal of Anne Rice: lots of descriptions and detail.


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## SheenahFreitas (Oct 7, 2011)

If it's too graphic, I don't think it's necessary unless we're reading erotica. I'm fine with sex scenes as long as they're not overly detailed or graphic and if it helps build the story. If it's thrown in there just to be thrown in there (like most romantic comedy movies) then I find it annoying and a little tacky.


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## patrickt (Aug 28, 2010)

In my preferred genre, a sex scene that describes


Spoiler



size or dampness or firmness or whether or not it's pulsating


 isn't appropriate. I find excessive descriptions of violence disgusting and have quite reading a few books because of it.

I think some authors are exposing their own problems. And, I suppose some readers don't have enough experience with either sex or violence to have much of an imagination.


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## 4eyesbooks (Jan 9, 2012)

As with many things I think less can be more.  Sometimes it is best to give some information and let the reader use their imagination for the rest.  Too much detail in sex scenes can be very offputting.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

I think it really depends on the book and the audience. If the audience likes sex, then I have no problem with it. =-)


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## sheiler1963 (Nov 23, 2011)

Laura Lond said:


> I have heard authors say that their agent or publisher would advice to add something sexual so that the story would look more "adult" and sell better - yes, even in the genres other than romance and erotica. It's almost like, "well, if it's G-rated, it's not grown-up stuff and no adult reader will want it." Somehow they are missing the fact that there are many adults who want the opposite. There are all kinds of book clubs and book groups who look for and share recommendations of "clean books."


It's not as if I find books like the one in my OP to be 'dirty'. If sex is part of the plot then it's all good. However when the story is getting good, the plot is thickening and then.....WHAMMO! Some soft porn/bodice ripping stuff gets interjected and I feel I've been cheated somehow.
For this reason I really loved the book 'The Silence of the Lambs' and loved the movie even more. Nobody falls in love and has to stop the show to screw. It's all about the story, which is what I picked up the book for.


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## RDaneel54 (Sep 10, 2010)

I really like J. D. Robb's "In Death" series with Eve Dallas and Roarke.  I detest the sex scenes in every book.  It detracts from the story for me.  My solution has been to hit the next page button until it's over.  I get that they are in love, but enough with describing their sex in every book.  Doesn't stop me from reading them, though.

Dean


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

FeliciaM said:


> I think it really depends on the book and the audience. If the audience likes sex, then I have no problem with it. =-)


How do you know this? And may I ask what genre(s) you author? Or read? Seems relevant to your answer, which just raises more questions for me!


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## thesophisticatedreader (Jan 24, 2012)

i think it depends. if its random and has nothing to with the story but just thrown in there then no.


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## NogDog (May 1, 2009)

I think whether or not there are sex scenes and how graphic they are are two separate but related things. Does two characters having sex -- whether "normal" or "spectacular" -- contribute to the story? If so, that's all fine by me. However, when you start getting into graphic detail on the specific mechanics involved, I'm not sure I've ever encountered a book where that was necessary (I guess in part because I don't read erotica?).

Consider if you had a story where the fact that a character had to use the bathroom was crucial to the plot; say, for instance, some mob boss was assassinated while sitting on the toilet. The fact that the assassin waits until the target goes into the bathroom could be an important plot point -- maybe he sneaked a laxative into his target's food. However, is anything added to the story if the author then spends several paragraphs or pages detailing the mechanics of, well, doing what you do in the bathroom when a laxative takes effect?

Most of us pretty well understand the mechanics of both sex and elimination: we don't need them spelled out in graphic detail, movement by movement (pun intended), do we? Granted, some people enjoy that sort of thing, and there are books specifically designed to cater to them; but I for one tend to get turned off, instead of turned on, when an otherwise good novel gets interrupted by a graphic sex scene.

Your mileage may vary.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

It really doesn't bother me if writers decide to get graphic.


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## MichelleR (Feb 21, 2009)

sheiler1963 said:


> I'm reading this book and I like most parts of it. The plot is engaging, the writing is good, most of the characters are well defined. However it has one fatal flaw. In every other chapter the protagonist has a mind blowing/out of this world sexual experience told with excruciating detail. The kind of sex that doesn't truly exist in the real world and it's in EVERY OTHER CHAPTER! Just when the plot is beginning to get good.......we have to stop while this person spends a few paragraphs having sex. *sigh* It has nothing to do with the story and it just takes away from the book all the things I was reading it for.
> Am I the only one who finds these gratuitous/obligatory sex scenes unnecessary and dull?


It's going to depend on the book, and the same goes for strong language.

In the book you're talking about, you say it has nothing to do with the story. While that is subjective, you might be absolutely right that the story would be stronger without it. Sometimes it does add the story or plot, though. And, some people just like it.


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

sheiler1963 said:


> I'm reading this book and I like most parts of it. The plot is engaging, the writing is good, most of the characters are well defined. However it has one fatal flaw. In every other chapter the protagonist has a mind blowing/out of this world sexual experience told with excruciating detail. The kind of sex that doesn't truly exist in the real world and it's in EVERY OTHER CHAPTER! Just when the plot is beginning to get good.......we have to stop while this person spends a few paragraphs having sex. *sigh* It has nothing to do with the story and it just takes away from the book all the things I was reading it for.
> Am I the only one who finds these gratuitous/obligatory sex scenes unnecessary and dull?


I used to read a lot of romance books about 20 years ago. While the sex wasn't as graphic in use of terminology as what is acceptable now,it was still pretty racy. After reading a scene or two, it gets tedious. The sex doesn't advance the plot and unless the character has some kind of epiphany during it, it doesn't show too much character insight either, so I tend to skim over those scenes to get back to the story. It doesn't bother me that they are there, I just don't need a blow by blow.

What bothers me more is the terminology now used. I'm reading a book now that is more of a romantic suspense/murder mystery, so I'm intrigued by the plot, but in the midst of it, there are some scenes that I'm uncomfortable reading. I don't like when the heroine is thinking thoughts that read like she stepped off the set of a porn shoot. This smart, articulate young woman completely changes character, plus she's supposed to be a bit inexperienced, so I don't buy that she'd think like that. There's also a bad guy who rapes and abuses a different woman and I can understand the graphic sex there, but I still don't want all the details.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

I think context is everything. Graphic sex may make sense in the paranormal romance but not as much in the cozy mystery.

I also want to point out that some books almost require some sort of graphic scene. For instance, in the book _Push_ by Sapphire there are some really graphic scenes concerning molestation of a very young child. It was chilling to read but made the intended impact. Also, just because you may not be a fan of graphic scenes doesn't mean they don't have a place. I'm not a huge fan of hard science fiction but understand why some find it interesting.


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## KateEllison (Jul 9, 2011)

sheiler1963 said:


> I'm reading this book and I like most parts of it. The plot is engaging, the writing is good, most of the characters are well defined. However it has one fatal flaw. In every other chapter the protagonist has a mind blowing/out of this world sexual experience told with excruciating detail. The kind of sex that doesn't truly exist in the real world and it's in EVERY OTHER CHAPTER! Just when the plot is beginning to get good.......we have to stop while this person spends a few paragraphs having sex. *sigh* It has nothing to do with the story and it just takes away from the book all the things I was reading it for.
> Am I the only one who finds these gratuitous/obligatory sex scenes unnecessary and dull?


At first I thought this was going to go in a different direction, and I was all set to defend non-gratuitous sex scenes. But I tend to agree with you... speaking completely non-prudishly here, monotonous sex thrown in without regard to the plot would get really annoying to me. I think a little can go a long way.

So... yeah. I am fine with sex, as it is a part of the human experience, and an interesting part at that, but I like that kind of thing to be appropriate to the rest of the story (and not overshadow it).


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## JumpingShip (Jun 3, 2010)

fayrlite said:


> I think context is everything. Graphic sex may make sense in the paranormal romance but not as much in the cozy mystery.
> 
> I also want to point out that some books almost require some sort of graphic scene. For instance, in the book _Push_ by Sapphire there are some really graphic scenes concerning molestation of a very young child. It was chilling to read but made the intended impact. Also, just because you may not be a fan of graphic scenes doesn't mean they don't have a place. I'm not a huge fan of hard science fiction but understand why some find it interesting.


I understand the need for graphic scenes at times, whether it's violence or sex, (shoot, I have plenty of readers who don't care for some of the somewhat graphic scenes I've written), and it definitely sounds like the book you're describing is one where it is justified to get the whole scope of impact on the character.

With the book I'm reading, it's more like this young woman sounds well-educated, doesn't tend to swear in the dialogue, and then out of the blue, will think,


Spoiler



"I want him to F--- me hard."



Also, the hero has similar thoughts and it's just as jarring because otherwise he hasn't used that kind of language.

Not only is it abrupt, but it's out of character. Blech It is spoiling what is an otherwise interesting story.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

lol I've read a few books like that. I mean, it's not like it doesn't cross all our minds at some point but wow. In print it's almost funny when it's out of the blue like that.


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## jumbojohnny (Dec 25, 2011)

Necessary, no, that doesn't mean it is not useful or not relevant etc, but nor does it make it vital. I suppose there's an exception and that's when the central theme / what drives it along is the sexual content, then for it to do what is says on the tin, as it were, then it would be necessary.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Just IMO, reading about sex can be fun, esp in the right context. I'm not against in books at all, like I said, I can skim over it if I want.

The problem (only for me) is that with most types of books I read, I tend to be very 'mission-oriented' and want to get on with the story! If an author can capture my attention with a good sex scene, good for them and again...thank you!


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## Paul Reid (Nov 18, 2010)

I find that the expectation of sex can often drive a story forward, building tension, etc, but when the moment arrives, the actual description of the sex scene, it can make the reader suddenly lose interest.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

I prefer sex scenes to be graphic and totally gratuitous.


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. (Also applies to women, I think, though I don't presume to speak for them.)

If it's natural to him, if it is authentic, then I would say: write it.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

LOL. From what I'm gathering in this thread, if an author can provide the proper 'foreplay' to the sex in their novel....it's all good!


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

I tend to skim past sex scenes. If they're not believable, I find myself rolling my eyes (and they often aren't, at least to me, even from authors I otherwise love). If they are believable, I feel like I'm invading the characters' privacy somehow. Yeah, I know, they aren't real, but still . . . I feel bad for the characters, being exposed like that.


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## kaykay543 (Jan 10, 2012)

A friend and I were talking about this the other day. And I said "remember how much sex is in the book "Jaws" which was pretty much all removed when it became a movie. 

While the sex in Jaws was not the main subject of the book, I do think it added to the story. 

The Twilight series is another example. While sex (and why they couldn't have it) was a huge deal in the books, it is pretty much glossed over in the movies. I know some parents threw a fit about the sex talk in the Twilight books, but to me it is crazy to think that teens are not thinking, talking and having sex. 


Kay


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

As I read through this thread, I keep thinking back to Nelson DeMille's _The Gold Coast_. It was I think the second book of his I had read, after having been introduced to his _The Charm School_ by my eldest daughter. Lots of sex in _The Gold Coast_, but it's very necessary toward understanding the relational dynamics between the main character John Sutton and his wife Susan. It remains one of my favorite DeMilles.

Years later came the sequel, _The Gate House_. Same two characters-John and Susan Sutter(now divorced), but the book is relatively devoid of overt sex scenes and, as a result, isn't nearly is interesting in my opinion. But, then, the story is not nearly as compelling either, which may be the real reason I didn't enjoy it nearly as much.

Anyway, _The Gold Coast_ is the exception. I usually find gratuitous sex scenes to be a major distraction in an otherwise well-written book. But, to this day, Nelson DeMille remains my favorite of the current crop of bestselling authors.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

R. Doug said:


> but it's very necessary toward understanding the relational dynamics


Thanks. This is exactly what I was thinking about the sex in Jaws. Necessary for the relationships between chief, wife, and marine biologist. Esp the 2 men who's lives ended up depending on each other.


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## Geemont (Nov 18, 2008)

On the whole, graphic sex scenes don't offend, repulse, or annoy me.  OK, sometimes the detailed descriptions aren't entirely necessary for the story, but I don't really mind.  A chaste fade to black would probably seem like a cop out most of the time.  People have sex in modern stories.  If the author's writing is otherwise descriptive, then describe the sex.  No big deal.

As for novels with disturbing graphic sex, I remember, more than others, reading parts of a novel by Jean Genet in the 80s.  I'm not gay, so homosexual anal intercourse isn't my cup of tea, but nonetheless I've never forgotten it.  It was clinical and very detailed.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

RDaneel54 said:


> I really like J. D. Robb's "In Death" series with Eve Dallas and Roarke. I detest the sex scenes in every book. It detracts from the story for me. My solution has been to hit the next page button until it's over. I get that they are in love, but enough with describing their sex in every book. Doesn't stop me from reading them, though.
> 
> Dean


IMO the sex scenes in the first few _In Death_ books were necessary to show Eve and Roarke getting comfortable with each other and falling in love. And considering that both Eve and Roarke were abused as children, in Eve's case sexually, showing the physical component of their relationship was important to show how both overcame their natural wariness of physical and emotional closeness.

However, thirtysomething books later I don't need to see the requisite sex scene in every book, unless it tells us something new about the characters. The sex scenes in the _In Death_ books are definitely above average and I prefer them to the rather samey sex scenes Robb writes in her Nora Roberts identity. But the world wouldn't end if we didn't see Eve and Roarke getting it on for a book or two.


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## Laura Lond (Nov 6, 2010)

I was talking with another writer about this, and his opinion was: "Well, some readers like graphic sex, and there's a genre for that, called erotica. I don't know why someone would want to pack a mystery or a fantasy novel full of sex scenes."

I agree.


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## Darlene Jones (Nov 1, 2011)

Personally, I much prefer a more subtle touch. Less is better.


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

Laura Lond said:


> I was talking with another writer about this, and his opinion was: "Well, some readers like graphic sex, and there's a genre for that, called erotica. I don't know why someone would want to pack a mystery or a fantasy novel full of sex scenes."
> 
> I agree.


Because the plot in erotica centers on the sex. Having graphic sex in a story doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most important part to the story.

I see this sort of thing all the time but with romance. People have these hard and fast rules about the way things should be. Seems a little silly to me. When we start applying all these kinds of rules, this is when the writing craft suffers.


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## lea_owens (Dec 5, 2011)

Context is so important when it comes to sex scenes. If the author has been exploring and revealing characters who, as part of their nature, are extremely sexual and sensual people, then a well written sex scene can fit right in with the context of that character, those relationships and the story line.  What I don't like is when a sex scene is thrown in 'out of context' as thought the author thought, "Hmm, I know what I need to get some more readers: a good sex romp". I'm an old fashioned person who likes romance with implied sex... the build up, the tension and *look!* there are fireworks going on outside (was that in 'To Catch a Thief?' - a great visual cut that negated the need for a sex scene in the film but left viewers in no doubt of what went on).


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2012)

I stopped reading the _Anita Blake_ series after _Obsidian Butterfly_ for this very reason. The series devolved into one page of plot, three pages of sex, one page of plot, four pages of Anita whining over her complicated sex life, half page of plot, two pages of sex...etc etc. Graphic sex is like graphic violence. It is just lazy writing that plays to the lowest common denominator. It's the same reason I can't stomach half of what passes for a horror movie anymore.


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## mscottwriter (Nov 5, 2010)

If I pick up a book knowing in advance that there are graphic sex scenes, it won't bother me as much as if I feel that I'm being ambushed.  And it also depends on the quality of the writing.  Most of the time, though, I'll get annoyed.

What ever happened to dimming the lights?


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## Richardcrasta (Jul 29, 2010)

Wow! This subject really seems to have some life in it.

Right, anything that is gratuitous is irritating. Even two pages of description of furniture, for example. If a writer is frank, honest, and speaking from the heart, and that includes sex (say, the works of Henry Miller, Charles Bukowski, Philip Roth, for example) then I think leaving sex OUT would make the writing unnatural. 

For me, growing up in India, where we had writers who pretended that we were all born through Immaculate Conceptions--no sex at all in modern literature--I found modern American writers liberating. Naturally, that influenced me. I cannot tell my life story, for example, and leave out sex: that would be dishonest.


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## R. Doug (Aug 14, 2010)

Richardcrasta said:


> I cannot tell my life story, for example, and leave out sex: that would be dishonest.


That reminds me of the old air traffic controller (my former career) who was having his annual flight physical. The doctor told him that he'd have to give up half his sex life. The controller left in bewilderment wondering which half he should give up-thinking about it or talking about it.

Old joke. Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## sparklemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

fayrlite said:


> Because the plot in erotica centers on the sex. Having graphic sex in a story doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most important part to the story.
> 
> I see this sort of thing all the time but with romance. People have these hard and fast rules about the way things should be. Seems a little silly to me. When we start applying all these kinds of rules, this is when the writing craft suffers.


This is exactly my feeling as well. Context is everything really.


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## kaotickitten (Jan 9, 2011)

I guess to me it is unnecessary.  I will not read erotica. Nor will I buy a book that has major/graphic sex scene in it.  I do read the reviews to see if a book has sex scenes in it.  Which is why as an adult I am almost always stuck in the YA section for paranormal romances.  Just cause I know sex happens doesn't mean I want to read it or see it.  Those of you who say i has its place need to think hey what would I feel if I had a camera following me around would every second of you life need to be filmed to move your life story along.  Or could it be edited to a point where people knew it was happening but weren't invited to watch.  Cause that is what a sex scene is in a book, an invitation to watch to characters have sex.  Even if their not real you are still watching, in your imagination.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2012)

Anything well written and appropriate is necessary, in the same sense that gorgeous settings, rich and well fleshed characters, and natural, captivating dialogue is.

Bad sex scenes are like bad sex. They make readers uncomfortable and leave them wondering why they bothered for THAT.

Good sex scenes are like good sex. They make readers blush, breathe a little deeper, get lost in the moment, and wonder where THAT has been all their lives and where they can find more.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

kaotickitten said:


> I guess to me it is unnecessary. I will not read erotica. Nor will I buy a book that has major/graphic sex scene in it. I do read the reviews to see if a book has sex scenes in it. Which is why as an adult I am almost always stuck in the YA section for paranormal romances. Just cause I know sex happens doesn't mean I want to read it or see it. Those of you who say i has its place need to think hey what would I feel if I had a camera following me around would every second of you life need to be filmed to move your life story along. Or could it be edited to a point where people knew it was happening but weren't invited to watch. Cause that is what a sex scene is in a book, an invitation to watch to characters have sex. Even if their not real you are still watching, in your imagination.


You seem comfortable with your decision and readily admit that it limits your reading material. I would find that limitation to books and reading very sad, personally, but then again, I've read many many things in books, fiction and non-fiction, that were much more offensive than descriptions of people having sex.

In that respect, I think your choice of YA is smart....most of that offensive material would need to be censored.


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## AndreSanThomas (Jan 31, 2012)

Since I write erotica, yes, it is totally necessary.  If you want romances and what not without it, try surfing for "christian romance" and you may be able to find what you're looking for.


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## Neil Ostroff (Mar 25, 2011)

Depends on the book and if the author is putting it in just to get shock and stimulation value. I don't mind it as long as it doesn't jut the reader out of the story and into horny. LOL


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## davidtillman (Jan 31, 2012)

I'll have to read "Push." I've been struggling with a difficult book I've been writing for a few years. It's a humorous look at boys and their relationship to each other in puberty. Unfortunately, one agent who was interested was so appalled by boys' behavior that she told me after reading it that she could only hope that her soon-to-be born child was a girl! I guess that's powerful stuff. but I'd like to be able to tell the story without being viewed as some sort of pornographer. I certainly don't want to be viewed as pandering to pedophiles. I just don't know how to tell the real story of "boy world" without circle jerks and scenes of comparing sizes. Perhaps the story doesn't need to be told and I should just stick to touching memoirs.


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## Tony Richards (Jul 6, 2011)

Some authors seem to think that putting strong sex scenes in their novels will make them more commercial. Beverly Barton -- for instance -- puts quite detailed scenes in her thrillers when there's honestly no need for them. I end up skipping over them and getting on with the story. But does it work? Do her books sell better because of that? I don't know.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdgy1J7cKJU

I'm not at all against sex in books. It just doesn't seem to be very relevant to the story of someone's life. As I see it, it's like concern over whether someone puts honey on their oatmeal.


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## kaotickitten (Jan 9, 2011)

AndreSanThomas said:


> Since I write erotica, yes, it is totally necessary. If you want romances and what not without it, try surfing for "christian romance" and you may be able to find what you're looking for.


Yes buy as you said you write erotica. Which means its not gratuitous but necessary. I think most of us are talking about books not in the erotica category. We shouldn't have to be stuck to the Christian romances if we don't want sex in our stories. If I want to read a thriller I will. I love Stephen King. If he adds sex to a story he doesn't put discriptions like pulsating or pushed harder into the scene. He lets ya know the deed is done with out to much info. He also gets long winded
In his discriptions of other things. So sex in books is one thing but unless it is a true story where you are reading about things realivent to a persons life, than no gratuitous sex shouldn't be in a book. I am not saying to exclude it from all books. Just to think not everybody likes to read about sex. You write it for erotica fine, just make sure ya tell us hey this book is erotica. Even if you don't like labels you need them. It can help sell your book to the reader of that genre, and tell those who prefer to not read in that genre what it is. Better to have a label you imposed than from an irate person, who read something falsely sold to them.


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## CoraBuhlert (Aug 7, 2011)

A sex scene, even a graphic one, does not make a book erotica.


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## Sean Patrick Fox (Dec 3, 2011)

Of course it's not _necessary_. Even in romance or erotica novels (tbh not clear on the difference), there's no need for graphic sex. However, many readers enjoy it, and many writers obviously think it serves as an important plot point (or just hope to use it to draw in readers).


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

QuantumIguana said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdgy1J7cKJU
> 
> I'm not at all against sex in books. *It just doesn't seem to be very relevant to the story of someone's life.* As I see it, it's like concern over whether someone puts honey on their oatmeal.


I didnt watch the video...I generally dont watch online vids.

But if the statement I bolded is more general (not just applicable to the video), then I have to disagree.....sex can certainly...even hopefully...be very relevant in the story of someone's life. Of course, that is just IMO.

Of course for some, it can be negative...yet for others, that intimacy can be very positive.

In my posts, my main point has been that if an author cant _sell _that...then I am all about the plot, the rest of the story, etc. I just skim over it, headed for the real meat of the story. If an author _can _blend it well with the characters and story...yeah!


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

kaotickitten said:


> Yes buy as you said you write erotica. Which means its not gratuitous but necessary. I think most of us are talking about books not in the erotica category. We shouldn't have to be stuck to the Christian romances if we don't want sex in our stories. If I want to read a thriller I will. I love Stephen King. If he adds sex to a story he doesn't put discriptions like pulsating or pushed harder into the scene. He lets ya know the deed is done with out to much info. He also gets long winded
> In his discriptions of other things. So sex in books is one thing but unless it is a true story where you are reading about things realivent to a persons life, than no gratuitous sex shouldn't be in a book. I am not saying to exclude it from all books. Just to think not everybody likes to read about sex. You write it for erotica fine, just make sure ya tell us hey this book is erotica. Even if you don't like labels you need them. It can help sell your book to the reader of that genre, and tell those who prefer to not read in that genre what it is. Better to have a label you imposed than from an irate person, who read something falsely sold to them.


So wait a second. Are you seriously saying that authors should quit writing what they want and write what you want? So those who want to read graphic sex can what, jump off a cliff? You don't like it don't read it. Don't make it seem like authors need to take in the needs of readers that aren't their intended audience. This is actually the second thread on this and in the other, those that did like it, complained that it was a cop out to fade into black. So are your needs and wants more valid than theirs?

As for if it's necessary, that's just a way to phrase things so the only answer is the one you want to hear. Nothing in writing is necessary, that's what makes it so interesting. The whole idea that the author needs to keep everyones wishes in mind is just ridiculous. Some people don't like religious references or guts or gun fights or heteronormative relationships. Should every author take all of these into consideration or, instead, focus on their audience? You don't like the heavy sex, don't read it. Feel you've been tricked, speak up. But this finger wagging is just a bit much.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

LOL

I think this thread has made me wish that authors _would _write better, more relevant...and as graphic as they want...sex in their fiction.

I'm happy to read it...just dont slow me down on the way to the resolution of the story unnecessarily! Grab me and reel me in! Then boot me out from under the nice warm (sweat-soaked) covers again into the story.....Just make it work.


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## Zackery Arbela (Jan 31, 2011)

Something to consider...there are very few people who know how to write sex scenes that are any good. Or at least not the sort that won't be favored with a (dis)honorable mention at the Bad Sex Awards....


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## HeidiHall (Sep 5, 2010)

Ha! I love this thread! I admit I'll skim if I get to a sex scene that isn't very interesting and sometimes it can stop a story dead in its tracks. Fade to black can be good because for most avid readers, me included, I think the imagination fills in the blanks much more graphically than many writers could (and then it's suitable for whatever the reader is comfortable imagining). On the other hand (ahem) a scene that wraps you up in it can be very gratifying to read. So, do it well - it's appropriate. Otherwise, leave it to the readers to figure out.


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## Ergodic Mage (Jan 23, 2012)

I prefer gratuitous violence over gratuitous sex. ha

I don't mind romance and passion but can't stand graphic sex.


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## wRiTiNgFiEn (Feb 4, 2012)

Laura Lond said:


> I always find them unnecessary and annoying; it can actually ruin an otherwise good book for me. Especially when I feel that the author might have put these scenes there just because "sex sells".


I agree, Laura! Sex scenes to me, especially the more explicit ones, just drag down a plot and make me lose interest. I really hate when I've been enjoying a story then suddenly get thrown into a sex scene that just feels like it was placed to cover a loop hole in the story =/


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

Although this is (probably obviously) not a peeve of mine, I try to remember to post a 'warning' of sorts on my listings so people don't assume the romance/erotica I write is the softer form--everyone hates surprises when they're paying, right?


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## sandrasstories (Feb 1, 2012)

I hate this in books!! It completely takes away from the story. I don't mind if there's a hint of sex going to happen, and then there's a break to the next chapter or whatever, but graphically explained is annoying. It's actually the reason I won't read the Game of Thrones series. I heard the plot is good, but there's so much unnecessary sex scenes that it's not worth my time.


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

Lursa (was 9MMare) said:


> I didnt watch the video...I generally dont watch online vids.
> 
> But if the statement I bolded is more general (not just applicable to the video), then I have to disagree.....sex can certainly...even hopefully...be very relevant in the story of someone's life. Of course, that is just IMO.
> 
> ...


It may be relevant to their life, but to their story? Might as well have a chapter going into the details of their breakfast. Oatmeal or pancakes tells me about as much about who they are.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

QuantumIguana said:


> It may be relevant to their life, but to their story? Might as well have a chapter going into the details of their breakfast. Oatmeal or pancakes tells me about as much about who they are.


Sure, very relevant. Esp. with respect to where they are in the relationship.

Of course if it's a long-time married character, we might be back to 'oatmeal or pancakes.'


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## QuantumIguana (Dec 29, 2010)

The characters have sex, yes. But it is probably much like any other person's sex, so what does it really tell you about the character?


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

QuantumIguana said:


> The characters have sex, yes. But it is probably much like any other person's sex, so what does it really tell you about the character?


I guess we'll have to disagree on that point.

Hey, remember the Lawrence Sanders (I think) detective that always made the fantastic sandwiches and paired them with the perfect beer, etc? Lots of detail that I'm sure some could say we could have lived without. Well, sex is somewhat like that....for some people, it's the same, and for some, each time is different and unique and that in itself says something about a person. It also says something about a writer if they can portray that well.


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## Sherlock (Dec 17, 2008)

I think it depends on the story.  I agree that it takes a special talent to write really moving sex scenes.  The emotion has to trump the mechanics for it to resonate.  When I was into romances, there were some authors that wrote awesome scenes that made your heart melt.  Others read like a set of instructions.....plug A into B and then connect D....you get the picture.  Not good.

I no longer enjoy romances much and choose to read other genres such as mysteries and historical novels, to name a few.  I have no problem with sex in books, but I don't particularly want graphic sex anymore in what I read.  If sex is relevant to the storyline, less is more IMO.

The beauty is the authors right to write what they want and our right to read what we want without censorship!  There's plenty for everyone


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

When I was younger and stole my mother's Harlequins... I always wondered when I got older if I was going to get a "golden triangle" ::rolls eyes::

Funnily enough, the authors just had a rousing debate over this very topic. As a writer, we're told to cut out the mundane. If you write Joanie is going to the grocery store, you don't write about her getting into the car, adjusting her mirrors, putting on her seat belt, fiddling with the radio, and finally backing out of the driveway etc. unless a big Mack truck is going to cream her at the end of that driveway.  (I know, poor Joanie). Instead, you just catch up with her AT the store where she runs into that handsome devil of a guy she had a crush on in high school and it just so happens they are both newly divorced...

I prefer reading and writing the "behind closed doors" approach. Unless there is something in the sex scene that makes or break the plot, such as the female stealing the bank codes for the security system or the male protagonist calls the woman the wrong name, sparking revelation that handsome devil isn't quite so newly divorced, or divorced at all, there's no reason to intrude on the characters' privacy. Exceptions of course for erotica. Besides, a reader's imagination is probably better than any sex scene I can pen.


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## Phyllis Lily Jules (Dec 5, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> I stopped reading the _Anita Blake_ series after _Obsidian Butterfly_ for this very reason. The series devolved into one page of plot, three pages of sex, one page of plot, four pages of Anita whining over her complicated sex life, half page of plot, two pages of sex...etc etc. Graphic sex is like graphic violence. It is just lazy writing that plays to the lowest common denominator. It's the same reason I can't stomach half of what passes for a horror movie anymore.


Well, I was going to say this exact thing but Julie already said it. And I stopped at that same book, having been a devoted Anita Blake fan up until then. Same thing with horror's gushing blood and sadism, seems like a hook, not a real part of the story. My imagination works overtime as it is, no need to spell it out for me. I wish authors would take that voyeuristic pause out and put some depth and character-building in.


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre. Eight or nine six-page sex scenes seem a tad too much to me when the flavour of the sex, be it good, bad or ugly, can be established in one scene. Maybe a second scene might confirm that things are not good, if that is required for the plot. But maybe there is an age/experience/sex sells bias working as others have said.  Young people (and I'm talking generalities here; I know there will always be exceptions!) are curious about sex, whereas older people know enough and lose that curiosity, though I'm not saying they lose interest in sex. Maybe there's some mileage in the theory that if enough of the young and curious buy, then the author will be told to do more of the same and so the circle goes on.


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## Iain Manson (Apr 3, 2011)

Back in my late teens and early twenties, I'd go through a novel just looking for the sex scenes. One way of finding them was to hold the book up in front of you, with the spine pointing away. The pages with the dirty edges were the dirty pages, if you see what I mean.

But that was forty years ago. Sex scenes now bore me rigid... unfortunate choice of word there, but never mind. I'm not offended, I'm not embarrassed; I'm just not interested. Unless something other than sex happens, the scene is irrelevant to the action, and shouldn't (unless it's erotica, I suppose) be there at all.

It may be that teens and twenties still go through novels looking for sex scenes, but I doubt it. There's plenty of erotica around, if that's what they want, and half the Web is in a permanent erotic frenzy.

Anyway, sex is overrated. The name escapes me of the male chauvinist swine (may he, of course, roast forever in Hell's hottest fires) who said "Who needs women, when you can just have a good wank, then have the rest of the evening to yourself."


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## kaotickitten (Jan 9, 2011)

Bethany B. said:


> So wait a second.* Are you seriously saying that authors should quit writing what they want and write what you want? *So those who want to read graphic sex can what, jump off a cliff? You don't like it don't read it. Don't make it seem like authors need to take in the needs of readers that aren't their intended audience. This is actually the second thread on this and in the other, those that did like it, complained that it was a cop out to fade into black. So are your needs and wants more valid than theirs?
> 
> As for if it's necessary, that's just a way to phrase things so the only answer is the one you want to hear. Nothing in writing is necessary, that's what makes it so interesting. The whole idea that the author needs to keep everyones wishes in mind is just ridiculous. Some people don't like religious references or guts or gun fights or heteronormative relationships. Should every author take all of these into consideration or, instead, focus on their audience? *You don't like the heavy sex, don't read it.* Feel you've been tricked, speak up. But this finger wagging is just a bit much.


No I was not saying writers have to quit writing what they want. I said that if you write it please advertise that you have added it. You just added words to my mouth by the way. You need to look at what I wrote. *I said if you are a writer of erotica than it is not gratuitous but necessary.* So no authors do not need to cater to me. I just don't have to buy them if they are into adding graphic sex into their books. Stephen King does not cater to me. Yet he doesn't add graphic sex to his books. *If you have read my post I have said I don't read it.* You need to learn not everything is directed at you. I am sorry you think I was saying that authors have to cater to people. You know what though it doesn't matter. Their are a lot of people who don't mind sex in the books they read and on the flip there are many who do. Just cause in another thread which is neither here nor there in this thread some don't like fade to black some do. So if the ones who do were to read what you had posted to me than it would be saying that suck it you have to read about sex. Which is what is so great about the publishing world. They cater to both sides of the coin. If someone doesn't want to read about God than guess what don't pick up the book. As to feeling as If I had been trick to speak up I will. Not just in the review but on forums. It's funny how you are defending this but yet choice not to truly read what I have wrote simply because it is on the other side of things. Yet you seem to think I can't think that sex doesn't belong in books because you do. Well guess what to me it doesn't and I avoid books that have it. You like you buy it. I never said that you or the writers couldn't have it. *I simply said that I don't feel it is necessary. I being the key word.*


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## Jon Olson (Dec 10, 2010)

How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Jen Black said:


> With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre.


Well if I was reading romance, even historical romance, I would expect sex scenes. As with anything, I would still expect it to be well-written and fit into the story. I would especially expect well-written sex scenes in romance! (but not always a realilty, I know)


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## Not Here (May 23, 2011)

kaotickitten said:


> No I was not saying writers have to quit writing what they want. I said that if you write it please advertise that you have added it. You just added words to my mouth by the way. You need to look at what I wrote. *I said if you are a writer of erotica than it is not gratuitous but necessary.* So no authors do not need to cater to me. I just don't have to buy them if they are into adding graphic sex into their books. Stephen King does not cater to me. Yet he doesn't add graphic sex to his books. *If you have read my post I have said I don't read it.* You need to learn not everything is directed at you. I am sorry you think I was saying that authors have to cater to people. You know what though it doesn't matter. Their are a lot of people who don't mind sex in the books they read and on the flip there are many who do. Just cause in another thread which is neither here nor there in this thread some don't like fade to black some do. So if the ones who do were to read what you had posted to me than it would be saying that suck it you have to read about sex. Which is what is so great about the publishing world. They cater to both sides of the coin. If someone doesn't want to read about God than guess what don't pick up the book. As to feeling as If I had been trick to speak up I will. Not just in the review but on forums. It's funny how you are defending this but yet choice not to truly read what I have wrote simply because it is on the other side of things. Yet you seem to think I can't think that sex doesn't belong in books because you do. Well guess what to me it doesn't and I avoid books that have it. You like you buy it. I never said that you or the writers couldn't have it. *I simply said that I don't feel it is necessary. I being the key word.*


Oh please, bold some more so I can really understand your point. 

First, this is a general thread. You post it and I can respond. So as to if it was directed to me, you made it so by having a public discussion. And the other thread that you tossed aside was posted on less than a month ago. Its relevance is purely off of the fact that this horse has already been flogged.

Edit:Made my response more appropriate for this argument: Whatever.


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?


I was wondering that myself. Along with how many separate threads KB needs about it. What's wrong with one? It's not like comments about sex scenes become less relevant just because a few months go by.


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## Jen Black (Oct 17, 2011)

Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us! 

Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position  - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count. After the first two or three books by the particular author I have in mind, I just sigh and skip over to where the story continues. Her storylines are good, but there's only so many ways she can write a sex scene and they soon get repetitive - for me, anyway!


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## Jorja Tabu (Feb 6, 2012)

Jen Black said:


> With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre...


For the record, I would love to be able to casually churn out a couple of pages of sex (because, as many have pointed out, there is an audience for it and money buys food!) but I think for many authors sex scenes are really challenging--my books are erotica, but they are really about relationships. The sex the characters have is part of the way they are revealed to the reader as people, and always important to show how they feel about themselves and their relationships. So just for the record, not all of the people writing about sex are padding the word count--not that you said that, just to offer a different perspective!


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## John Blackport (Jul 18, 2011)

Jen Black said:


> Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us!


Well, that's a good point I guess.



Jen Black said:


> Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count.


I don't think that's _quite_ what's going on.

It's been a while since I regularly read romances, but what you said reminds me of a particular one that my wife and I both enjoyed. It was a Regency. Heroine was 18 or 19, Hero was mid-twenties, both were gentry.

Heroine is orphaned, probably through actions of Villain. Heroine can't inherit a fee tail due to her gender. Villain wants to possess both Heroine and her fortune.

Heroine's fate is decided, at least in the short term, by Duke. Villain wants Heroine to be his ward, this is all set to happen but somehow Duke makes Hero the guardian, with the stipulation that Hero and Heroine have separate living & sleeping quarters.

Hero and Heroine fall in love. Despite the reasonable precautions of the Duke, explicit sex happens, I frankly don't remember how many separate sex scenes. Maybe it was one or two, or maybe it was six. I read this years ago.

But here's what I _do_ remember:

Duke has a costume party. Of course, Hero, Heroine and Villain all show up. At about midnight, Hero and Heroine sneak out into the Duke's garden and have noisy sex in the gazebo.

OK, I frankly enjoyed this sex scene --- because _it heralded a future conflict._ At this point, I had been losing faith in the novel, because the obstacles between Hero and Heroine seemed to have dwindled into insignificance, particularly Villain who was turning out to be kind of a wuss. However, this sex scene was ripe for causing new, non-sexual problems for the lovers --- I foresaw another party guest (maybe Villain!) blowing the whistle on this, and the Duke finding out. Duke had been predisposed to like the lovers so far, but if they embarrassed him like this he was likely to slam some kind of hammer down. This seemed likely to bring the plot some needed complication from an unexpected quarter.

In the next chapter, the truth _did_ come out, the Duke had his private talk with the Hero, and it ended with the Duke saying, "I'm so glad you two are in love! Best wishes to you both!"

No obstacle whatsoever. My hopes were dashed.

My problem wasn't the inclusion of the sex scene --- or how explicit it may have been. The problem was that, the inclusion of the sex scene made somebody _lazy_ (maybe the writer, maybe the editor; in the end it didn't matter). This was well before the "e-book revolution", when e-book sales were insignificant --- word count mattered, but it was often something to be cut down, rather than padded. There's no way to know whether the author had originally included the plot I wanted, but _if they had,_ when deciding which 5,000 words to cut, between the tension-causing, character-building, climactic plot obstacle and the sex scene, _somebody_ would have probably decided to keep the sex scene. Because it's a simpler, easier decision.

And "fade-to-black" would have never worked with a scene like that one. When a sex scene's plot significance is that one or both lovers will suffer consequences for this later, "fade-to-black" fails to deliver. Giving the reader the full impact of whatever punishment lovers face for being caught with their hands in the cookie jar, requires description of how delicious the cookies were.

I'm not saying "fade-to-black" never works. Many times it's the best choice.

But sex scenes can be mismanaged --- written badly like any other scene; unnecessary like any other scene, and so forth. But the level of "explicit-ness" is often not the problem. . . in fact, I'd say it's rarely the problem, at least at the writing stage. The level of explicit sex in a book is a problem when readers are misled about what the book contains.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Jen Black said:


> Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us!
> 
> Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count. After the first two or three books by the particular author I have in mind, I just sigh and skip over to where the story continues. Her storylines are good, but there's only so many ways she can write a sex scene and they soon get repetitive - for me, anyway!


LOL, well that does take some of the 'romance' out of it. I havent read a romance in a long time, altho I'm trying to read JD Robb's Naked in Death now. So I dont remember that from romances that I have read but things do change. And I do remember sex scenes so long...and boring...that I skipped over those anyway.

I think it's like anything else...if it fits in and is well-written it provides value and enjoyment. If not....wastin' my time and I'll skip over it.


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## Lursa (aka 9MMare) (Jun 23, 2011)

Jon Olson said:


> How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?


Think of it like an unnecessary sex scene....you can skip right over it.


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