# How is this NOT breaking TOS?



## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Quote: "To collect $5,000+ in bonuses, enter your receipt on XXX***.com after purchase!"

The bonuses are even mentioned in the subtitle! Best yet--you can pre-order this top of the charts book (and get $5000 bonuses!) for only 99 cents. What a deal. And a lot of high profile authors have went together with this too.

How is this not breaking TOS?


*Edited because original fake website actually existed!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

*uses Google-fu*

There is a thread about this "author" https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,217912.0.html


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> *uses Google-fu*
> 
> There is a thread about this "author" https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,217912.0.html


Yes, but wasn't that about a service she was offering? Good to know in relation to this.

But this book has some very successful and well-known authors as contributors. Surely they know better than this?


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Avery342 said:


> Yes, but wasn't that about a service she was offering? Good to know in relation to this.
> 
> But this book has some very successful and well-known authors as contributors. Surely they know better than this?


*clicks "more"*

*falls off chair*

OMFG. *they* should really know better. OMG OMG OMG


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Patty Jansen said:


> OMG. *they* should really know better. OMG OMG OMG


Ha, ha. That was pretty much my take on this too. Especially as KDP SEEMS to be cracking down on TOS rule benders right now. I would think this is NOT the time to try something like this. But then, that's probably why I'm not as successful as they are. Eye-opening for sure.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Avery342 said:


> Ha, ha. That was pretty much my take on this too. Especially as KDP SEEMS to be cracking down on TOS rule benders right now. I would think this is NOT the time to try something like this. But then, that's probably why I'm not as successful as they are. Eye-opening for sure.


And not all of them are terribly successful either, not from selling books at any rate (maybe selling skeevy courses). Seriously. Some of those people really should get the hell outta there because they got waaaayyyy too much to lose. You only have one reputation.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

Yeah, one in particular really shocked me. She's a highly respected author.

I'd like to think she didn't know how the bonuses worked, but it looks like each contributing author had to anti up a bonus. Don't know how you agree to that without prior knowledge.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Dionne (Jul 14, 2013)

If you are successful, you don't need to do crap like this. When did writing become a game and money-making scheme? How depressing.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

If you're really that successful, you don't need this rubbish. Seriously, this is majorly stupid.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

So now I' thinking about all the authors that these authors are connected to. It's disheartening...how about authors just write books instead of figure out ways to [make money from] unsuspecting authors? It seems to be a novel idea these days.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2018)

Report the book to Amazon. It is running an illegal raffle. On Amazon's site. I just...I just...

I got nothing...


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

Is it actually a raffle? It looks to me like one of those things where _everyone_ gets the "$5,000+ in bonuses" - which is probably a bunch of discount coupons for over-priced services, perhaps combined with some worthless PDF reports.

That might be against Amazon's TOS too (I kind of hope it is), but it wouldn't be a raffle or lottery as long as everyone who buys it gets the same junk.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

boba1823 said:


> Is it actually a raffle? It looks to me like one of those things where _everyone_ gets the "$5,000+ in bonuses" - which is probably a bunch of discount coupons for over-priced services, perhaps combined with some worthless PDF reports.
> 
> That might be against Amazon's TOS too (I kind of hope it is), but it wouldn't be a raffle or lottery as long as everyone who buys it gets the same junk.


Wouldn't it fall squarely under "Incentivised buys"?


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

I feel like the most ignorant, naive little country bumpkin when I find out about things like this.

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm not seeing where this is via Google so maybe I'm entering it wrong. It just leads me back to Kboards? Honestly when I read the OP, it was reminding me of the 'get rich quick' gurus and thought they'd traversed into Amazon.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

LadyG said:


> I feel like the most ignorant, naive little country bumpkin when I find out about things like this.
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


Well, as authors we are supposed to have good imaginations. Some of us put that into writing - others put it into, er - other things.


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> Wouldn't it fall squarely under "Incentivised buys"?


That's what I was thinking. Shady as eff.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Put this in the Amazon search field: To collect $5,000+ in bonuses


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

LadyG said:


> I feel like the most ignorant, naive little country bumpkin when I find out about things like this.
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


Me too. I'm always shocked by it.


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## boba1823 (Aug 13, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> Wouldn't it fall squarely under "Incentivised buys"?


Yeah, that sounds about right. I admit that I haven't spent much time reading the ToS because.. well, I just buy PPC ads, lol. Probably need to anyway.

I'm also thinking that there _may_ be some issue here with.. something like misleading advertising or the like. Now, I'm completely speculating about what the "$5,000+ in bonus resources" consists of, so this might not apply. But I recognize one of the contributors as someone who offers services to indie writers. So I'm half guessing that this book is basically a big advertisement for the services of all the contributors, and that the bonuses are basically discount coupons for their services.

Here in the US, there seems to be some kind of rule governing claims about the value of discount coupons. I think coupons generally have some fine print reading something like "Cash value of this coupon is .001 cents." Presumably so someone can't trick you into paying $100 for a coupon by claiming that it is actually _worth_ $500 - although said coupon may be described (accurately) as entitling the holder to a $500 discount on whatever product or service. So if that's what these bonuses are, they should properly be described as "get $5000 in discounts!" or something clearer. Though that may still fall afoul of Amazon's rules.

Now, maybe it's not discount coupons (or only these) that one gets as a bonus for buying that book. There's nothing illegal about putting together a 10-page PDF pamphlet and declaring that _it_ is "worth $5000!" - as far as I know. But I can't imagine Amazon would be keen on someone offering a 'bonus' of this type.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks! I see it now.

Honestly...I've seen this before. Dan Pink and Tim Ferris and others have done this in nonfiction. And it's the exact type of wording you'll see on other nonfiction books about making money when a similar type of book is released. Incentive to preorder so it hits number one on release day.

http://www.pivotmethod.com/preorder/

I don't usually see it on Amazon. It's usually on their websites. Everyone gets one.

And I'd double check with the authors. It looks like they might just be quoted. If that's the case, it *could be those authors have no control or might not even have an idea of these bonuses. They're just being used for their names to draw attention.

I meant to add: Google "preorder and get bonuses" and you'll see what I mean. It's a different ballpark for nonfiction.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

Holy cannoli, I just realized the TOS-breaking book in question has also-boughts in the old position!


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## The 13th Doctor (May 31, 2012)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

Here is an excerpt from an email I received from the two principle authors:

If you want 2018 to be the year you succeed as an author...you're not too late.

You still have a few more hours left to join Author Remake mastermind. Simply go to the link here:

It's so much easier, so much more fun and so much more effective to go after your goals when you have a mentor invested in your success.

That's why we wanted to make joining Author Remake Mastermind a no-brainer for you.

Here's what you get:
• Author Remake Curriculum $1,997
• Life-time LibraryBub Listing $3,000
• Unlimited group coaching $3,000
• Unlimited email access to me $2,000
• Accountability buddy: $1,000
• Connection to foreign right agent (priceless!)
• TOTAL VALUE: $10,997

You too can make your author dreams come true in 2018!

Join Author Remake Mastermind now and you'll be in a video meeting together with other like-minded authors next week!

All this is yours, including a webinar for only $997. Now, multiply $997 times 1,000. Any more questions about how to become a millionaire?


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## wilsonharp (Jun 5, 2012)

brkingsolver said:


> Here is an excerpt from an email I received from the two principle authors:
> 
> If you want 2018 to be the year you succeed as an author...you're not too late.
> 
> ...


Unlimited e-mail access for $2,000? Shoot, I'm a bargain. I'll give you unlimited access to my e-mail address for $1500. And today only, I'll drop it whopping 90% and charge you only $150!


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## KelliWolfe (Oct 14, 2014)

Amazon has become the bathroom wall of the publishing industry.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

brkingsolver said:


> Here is an excerpt from an email I received from the two principle authors:
> 
> If you want 2018 to be the year you succeed as an author...you're not too late.
> 
> ...


It's normal for nonfiction gurus to "sell" their book for .99 cents with incentives, and the link for bonuses also tries to sell you a course or consulting. I'm not saying this might not be against TOS for Amazon. I'm just saying it happens a lot. It's the replacement for Click Bank schemes. Sell an inexpensive ebook with lots of bonuses, then funnel and sell a membership or course or consulting.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

But if you want to get on someone about preorder incentives in fiction: http://novelknight.com/pre-order-incentives/

A lot of these are trade published as well.


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

I was sure incentivized buying was prohibited by the TOS, but I'm having trouble finding the language. Google keeps sending me to articles about incentivized reviews or KBboards posts. Can someone point me to the right section in the TOS?

Back-of-the-book coupons are nothing new in publishing, but making them available only following proof-of-purchase registration for an ebook is a little different, to say the least.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2018)

brkingsolver said:


> • Unlimited email access to me $2,000


This is why I am poor. I answer emails for free.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

CLStone said:


> But if you want to get on someone about preorder incentives in fiction: http://novelknight.com/pre-order-incentives/
> 
> A lot of these are trade published as well.


I thought it was against the law to require a purchase to enter a contest. FTC anyone?


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

100% in agreement that this is probably TOS-breaking (though not illegal). *sigh* I have nothing against selling courses (obviously), but some people have a really overinflated idea of what their "services" are worth. Access to someone I've literally never heard of, with no demonstrable ability to do the thing she's teaching, for only 2K$? No thanks.

There's a reason I keep my price low, keep class sizes tiny, and don't advertise for clients. This sort of shit is the reason, in a nutshell.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

brkingsolver said:


> I thought it was against the law to require a purchase to enter a contest. FTC anyone?


But it's not a contest. Everyone gets the same bonuses for buying the book. It's like when I go into the Body Shop and they give me a free hand lotion if I spend 20$ or whatever.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2018)

Bill Hiatt said:


> Back-of-the-book coupons are nothing new in publishing, but making them available only following proof-of-purchase registration for an ebook is a little different, to say the least.


Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services." This book is clearly designed to redirect people to the richauthors website in order to sell other services.

It is one thing to have a link to your website in your book. You can offer a discount on the next book. But when a book exists for the sole purpose of getting people to go to another site to promote additional products and services, that is a violation of the TOS.

And, while I don't have time to dig into it now, there are potential fraud issues in play due to the self-referential nature of the "bonus". The "bonus" value is arbitrarily assigned and doesn't have a concrete real world value. it is one thing to say "buy this book, get this other book that sells for $4.99 free." But the bonuses in play here all appear to be self-referring and the values artificially inflated to create the illusion of worth.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't agree with this type of marketing at all. I think it is kind of slimy...

But I try to approach things like this with an impartial mind. Can someone tell me how this breaks the TOS?

Lots of fiction authors will put a link in the back of their book with a carrot. "Sign up for my mail list and get blah blah blah free..." Sometimes it's a short story or a novella or whatever. And lots of non-fiction authors will put links in their books to resources or discounts that they can download free.

I'm not _denying_ that this is against the TOS, since I don't know, but I'm just wondering if someone can cite where in the policy that it's written as against the TOS. Do you guys think it against the TOS because they are assigning an arbitrary value to the free content they are providing or do you think it's against the TOS because they are requiring proof of purchase to get the free content? This isn't the first time I've seen fiction books give free off-site resources to people who bought their books, but I never thought much of it.


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## VanessaC (Jan 14, 2017)

Patty Jansen said:


> Put this in the Amazon search field: To collect $5,000+ in bonuses


Thank you for the hint.

In the interests of research (erm, ok I'm procrastinating - I have the attention span of a mayfly when editing!) I checked this out and there's an Amazon message that the item is under review.

Now going to get back to writing.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services." This book is clearly designed to redirect people to the richauthors website in order to sell other services.
> 
> It is one thing to have a link to your website in your book. You can offer a discount on the next book. But when a book exists for the sole purpose of getting people to go to another site to promote additional products and services, that is a violation of the TOS.
> 
> And, while I don't have time to dig into it now, there are potential fraud issues in play due to the self-referential nature of the "bonus". The "bonus" value is arbitrarily assigned and doesn't have a concrete real world value. it is one thing to say "buy this book, get this other book that sells for $4.99 free." But the bonuses in play here all appear to be self-referring and the values artificially inflated to create the illusion of worth.


Thanks... You posted this as I was posting my reply above. It seems the violations leans on determining if the book is solely used to get people on another site. If it is, I agree with this. Without being able to see content of he book yet, it's kind of hard to judge... They are getting 24 stories. I'd say if it's a scamlet, then this is violating the TOS. But if there are 24 legit books and the $0.99 is a promotion, it's a very grey line if the free offsite content is a carrot or the book is solely there to get people offsite.

I actually tend to lean to the idea that they're not trying to get people offsite, but just trying to artificially inflate the value of the product to increase the ranking. If they just wanted to get them off site, they wouldn't require proof of purchase.

But it is very grey... dark grey. And probably something Amazon wouldn't approve of and should update their TOS about.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

lilywhite said:


> But it's not a contest. Everyone gets the same bonuses for buying the book. It's like when I go into the Body Shop and they give me a free hand lotion if I spend 20$ or whatever.





CLStone said:


> But if you want to get on someone about preorder incentives in fiction: http://novelknight.com/pre-order-incentives/
> 
> A lot of these are trade published as well.


The book referred to in the OP may not be a contest, but check the link I referred to. Some of the offers are definitely contests. Pre-order the book to get free stuff with a grand prize to one lucky winner. One of the authors even has a blog post telling others how to run such a contest.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

AuthorX said:


> Lots of fiction authors will put a link in the back of their book with a carrot. "Sign up for my mail list and get blah blah blah free..." Sometimes it's a short story or a novella or whatever.


I can't speak to the other parts directly, other than reading and interpreting the TOS like anyone else would. But, around the time Chance was up to his Tiffanygate shenanigans, when Amazon made some TOS changes that seemed to relate to this, I did have a lengthy email conversation with KDP about mailing list cookies (I love "carrot," by the way, and will be stealing it in future because they are healthier than cookies!). They said (eventually, because talking to bots is hard and it took me a while to get an actual person) that those are okay.

I don't see the difference between that and any other incentive, at least not on the surface, and you can't effectively police intent, but I suspect that's why they leave the TOS as-is--so that they can punish back-of-book incentives they don't like, but ignore ones that they find acceptable.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

My search didn't turn up an exact much, but just $5000 in bonuses turns up one that might be what people are referring to here. It says it's under review for quality issues- so looks like this one may not make it to release. Good, if so.


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## katewrath (Jul 9, 2018)

On the book's page:  

"Item Under Review
This book is currently unavailable because there are significant quality issues with the source file supplied by the publisher.

The publisher has been notified and we will make the book available as soon as we receive a corrected file. As always, we value customer feedback."


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## Bryan Cohen (Aug 28, 2010)

Hey folks! 

I'm probably going to only post once in this thread since they tend to get a little out of hand. 

Me and the other authors who contributed to this anthology submitted our pieces months ago. It was before Amazon made the changes to its Terms of Service about incentivizing purchases with bonuses. 

I was happy to just put in some good information and I think the anthology is really strong as a whole, but upon seeing your comments, it's made me realize that the inclusion of the bonuses is definitely against Amazon's recently-changed TOS. 

I've asked Alinka if we can ditch the bonuses. If not, I'm going to bow out of the book. 

I'm sorry for not putting two and two together when Amazon made the change that this collection would be in violation. I absolutely should have recognized that right away. 

I want to thank everyone who brought this thread to my attention. Have an awesome day!


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services."


Interesting. I wonder if that means the book cover design book I recently read that had two whole chapters devoted to pushing courses on blurb writing and advertising is also in violation of these terms since neither chapter had anything to do with book cover design and they were definitely pushing the purchase of those courses.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Nice try, Bryan, but incentivized sales have always been against TOS. Adding such incentives in the title/subtitle and in the on-page blurb has always been against the rules. Anyone trying to peddle advice for selling on Amazon would know this.

We've seen others (some of whom you've worked with) come here claiming Amazon made a change that made what they were doing, which they claimed was previously OK, wrong. Turns out the Wayback Machine is pretty reliable when it comes to situations like this. 

Some of us knew about this book earlier. Some of us reported this earlier. Probably enough someones that the Under Review box was added to the page.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

PhoenixS said:


> Nice try, Bryan, but incentivized sales have always been against TOS. Adding such incentives in the title/subtitle and in the on-page blurb has always been against the rules. Anyone trying to peddle advice for selling on Amazon would know this.
> 
> We've seen others (some of whom you've worked with) come here claiming Amazon made a change that made what they were doing, which they claimed was previously OK, wrong. Turns out the Wayback Machine is pretty reliable when it comes to situations like this.
> 
> Some of us knew about this book earlier. Some of us reported this earlier. Probably enough someones that the Under Review box was added to the page.


Thanks for this, Pheonix. I can't imagine how some people think that everyone is gullible enough to believe what they're saying when there's proof otherwise.


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## Pandorra (Aug 22, 2017)

I got this offer in my email on a blog so go figure.. I unsubscribed to that blog.. which came from a kboard author sooo... anyways.. even if it was a 'new' rule, which it isn't, it was still unethical.. are you saying you guys just learned the meaning of that word as well?


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2018)

AuthorX said:


> But if there are 24 legit books and the $0.99 is a promotion, it's a very grey line if the free offsite content is a carrot or the book is solely there to get people offsite.


I think there is some confusion. The book in question is not a "bundle" with 24 books. It is 24 "articles" from authors about how they got successful. It is hard to give details because there is no preview, but my impression is that it is 24 individual essays/blog post-type "how I did it" things...all leading into a sales pitch to go get the "bonus" content.


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

The book is now under review. Apparently there are significant quality issues.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

It may be under review, but it still has the button to allow you to pre-order it. And you can't see the review notice unless you scroll down the page.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> Nice try, Bryan, but incentivized sales have always been against TOS. Adding such incentives in the title/subtitle and in the on-page blurb has always been against the rules. Anyone trying to peddle advice for selling on Amazon would know this.
> 
> We've seen others (some of whom you've worked with) come here claiming Amazon made a change that made what they were doing, which they claimed was previously OK, wrong. Turns out the Wayback Machine is pretty reliable when it comes to situations like this.
> 
> Some of us knew about this book earlier. Some of us reported this earlier. Probably enough someones that the Under Review box was added to the page.


&#128175;&#128175;&#128175;


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## Used To Be BH (Sep 29, 2016)

JRTomlin said:


> "This book is currently unavailable because there are significant quality issues with the source file supplied by the publisher."
> 
> I should think so!
> 
> ETA: The notice is immediately below the blurb on Chrome and does not require scrolling. And the author will not receive that 99Cents until and unless the book is actually published.


This seems to be another example of Amazon reacting faster than usual to a problem. I hope this is an indication that the earlier crackdown wasn't just a one-time thing.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Even if the dodgy incentives didn't exist--why on earth would you buy a book about how to succeed at publishing (presumably in fiction) from people who currently don't appear to be "succeeding" by any definition, and who don't write fiction in any case? And most of whose books seem to be ranked in the millions. 

Caveat emptor, I guess. 

I've never heard of any of them, but I don't read the kind of nonfiction they're selling.


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## Andie (Jan 24, 2014)

So is it now against the TOS to have any outside bonus material? They are fairly common in trade books (eg extra downloadable worksheets, MP3's for language course books, etc.). I'm confused as to how that's different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

The book is currently #516 in the store. Looks like the tips on the videos are being used. I can't imagine there are that many real people desperate for those bonuses.

_Edited to remove quote. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Lori Devoti (Oct 26, 2010)

Giveaways don't change ranking now. I'm taking it that when they first started they did?

_Edited to remove quote. FYI, this question was prompted by a now-deleted post. - Becca_


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2018)

Andie said:


> So is it now against the TOS to have any outside bonus material? They are fairly common in trade books (eg extra downloadable worksheets, MP3's for language course books, etc.). I'm confused as to how that's different.


Again:
Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services."

This book is nothing more than a promo for their other "services." It is a printed infomercial, with 24 testimonials from authors using the techniques that are being "taught" in the course. The entire MARKETING PITCH of this "book" is to redirect people to a different site to sign up for mailing lists in order to get the "bonus" content.

This is NOT a case of "go to our website to download additional worksheets for free." This is a sales pitch designed to direct traffic to their site.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

Lori Devoti said:


> Giveaways don't change ranking now. I'm taking it that when they first started they did?
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


My understanding is that if the book is claimed by the winner within 24 hours, it does effect rank. Otherwise, there's no reason to set up 1000 giveaways. If this is no longer the case, then it has very recently been changed.


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## Lori Devoti (Oct 26, 2010)

Hope said:


> My understanding is that if the book is claimed by the winner within 24 hours, it does effect rank. Otherwise, there's no reason to set up 1000 giveaways. If this is no longer the case, then it has very recently been changed.


I did one a few months ago and they were VERY clear that it did not affect ranking. Honestly, I was confused about how whatever it was that they were doing in this video was going to be very helpful. But I have discovered recently how naive I've been...

As a side note, if the person never claims the giveaway, the person doing the giveaway is still on the hook for the $$. Even if it shows in the giveaway that the prize was claimed... at least that was my less than satisfactory experience with them. No sale recorded to offset it, but still billed for the book. I don't recommend them!


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## Ava Glass (Feb 28, 2011)

Didn't Amazon recently replace ebook giveaways with "Buy for Others"?

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200652260

https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,264113

ETA: I still see the giveaway box under several ebook titles, but they went away at some point.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

Lori Devoti said:


> Giveaways don't change ranking now. I'm taking it that when they first started they did?
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


It was about artificially obtaining the number of sales needed to make bestseller lists. The technique was to create multiple giveaways for the same ASIN instead of one bulk giveaway (TOS violation here, item #19). Each giveaway counted as a sale if it was redeemed within a certain period of time (mentioned in the video). There are a lot of screenshots and detailed info publicly available regarding this on social media, however I am not sharing the link due to threats being made to another individual when it came out a few months ago. I did, however, personally observe what was going on and was, frankly, floored. My personal experience is that when I discussed this topic, my character was attacked, I was insulted, and within minutes of posting I received vicious 1-star reviews on my books-- among other things that I'll leave out because KBoards rule of what happens in others groups stays in other groups.

Hence the reason why many of us know what goes on, but hesitate to share detailed information with others.

Each claimed giveaway affects rank. How do I know? Amazon wouldn't consider it rank manipulation otherwise. per Amazon:


> 19. How do I make sure that I follow all of the guidelines when hosting a giveaway?
> We prohibit and/or discourage the creation of giveaways which will lead to a poor customer or entrant experience. Giveaways should be created with the intent to award prizes to customers who have fulfilled the entry requirements or to drive product awareness. *Attempts to game our ranking system*, confusing or deceptive messaging, or any other abuse of our terms and conditions can result in loss of entitlements to create giveaways. *Examples of such prohibited/discouraged actions include, but are not limited to*:
> 
> General Giveaway manipulation;
> ...


----------



## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Lori Devoti said:


> As a side note, if the person never claims the giveaway, the person doing the giveaway is still on the hook for the $$. Even if it shows in the giveaway that the prize was claimed... at least that was my less than satisfactory experience with them. No sale recorded to offset it, but still billed for the book. I don't recommend them!


You can reclaim those codes and give them away to other people, though.


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## Lori Devoti (Oct 26, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> You can reclaim those codes and give them away to other people, though.


Except my giveaway page said they HAD been claimed. With names of who supposedly claimed them. It was crazy... I sent screenshots, etc. to no avail. Finally, took it as a lesson learned because it wasn't worth my time to keep fighting.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

Lori Devoti said:


> Except my giveaway page said they HAD been claimed. With names of who supposedly claimed them. It was crazy... I sent screenshots, etc. to no avail. Finally, took it as a lesson learned because it wasn't worth my time to keep fighting.


Okay, that's ... not good. Yikes!


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## Rick Gualtieri (Oct 31, 2011)

That's why we occasionally need mega-threads here. The more public light which is shined on these practices, the less power they have.  The mosquitoes are adept are swarming individual targets, but it gets less effective the more people who are swatting at them.


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## Lydniz (May 2, 2013)

The book has gone altogether now.


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## I&#039;m a Little Teapot (Apr 10, 2014)

I keep refreshing the page to see the cute dogs.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Well, this one was enlightening to say the least.  How anyone could think this was a good idea to get involved with is beyond me or to add an endorsement for it.  Even if it wasn't presented to you accurately when you agreed to participate, as soon as the Amazon sales page went up it's obvious.  It was just to get people to another page on a different website to enter their email addresses - with the website being in the title and blurb - unbelievable that anyone would even try that on Amazon and claim to know how to self-publish.  A few names I saw did surprise me. So yes, even more caution needed - duly noted.


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## Mercedes Vox (Jul 22, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services." This book is clearly designed to redirect people to the richauthors website in order to sell other services.


I can definitively prove that this TOS verbiage dates back to as early as mid-2014, where anyone who had a KDP account at the time had to click on a TOS-change pop-up message after signing on to their account. So no, it's not new.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

JWright said:


> Well, this one was enlightening to say the least. How anyone could think this was a good idea to get involved with is beyond me or to add an endorsement for it. Even if it wasn't presented to you accurately when you agreed to participate, as soon as the Amazon sales page went up it's obvious. It was just to get people to another page on a different website to enter their email addresses - with the website being in the title and blurb - unbelievable that anyone would even try that on Amazon and claim to know how to self-publish. A few names I saw did surprise me. So yes, even more caution needed - duly noted.


Yup. I'm guessing from Amazon's swift response (unless of course it was the authors that took it down, which is possible) that they didn't like it any more than we did.

Have to admit, if it was Amazon/KDP, that's the fastest I've ever seen them move. Even the Tiffany scandal took days...

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Looks like the situation with this book has run its course. Declaring this one "case closed" and locking.

Edit:

I'm reopening this thread, as it seems the book's situation has changed, and tracking its status and how Amazon handles it may be informative.

Please note I've done some pruning throughout the thread.

To keep this thread open, we need to focus on issues like these: Does this book seem to violate Amazon's TOS? Why/why not? What does the TOS say, exactly, and is there wiggle room? What is/is not permissible to include in a blurb? What counts as incentivizing purchases and what doesn't? Have there been changes to how and/or how quickly Amazon deals with books that break the TOS?

What we don't want: comments about how greedy/dishonest/lame the participating authors are, how you don't personally like them, how bad their covers are, how they are metaphorically akin to this or that vermin, name-calling such as "scammers," other things they've done you don't like, etc. That sort of stuff is not the KB way and will tend to get threads locked because we don't want it here, and we rarely have time to go through and remove it all.

Also, the latter third of this thread became focused on appropriate use of Amazon gifting and/or giveaways and the rules applying to those practices. If you want to continue to discuss that issue, please take it to Krista Ball's thread on the subject: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,262509.0.html. Further discussion of that issue here will be removed. Thanks.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Looks like the situation with this book has run its course. Declaring this one "case closed" and locking.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I'm reopening this thread, as it seems the book's situation has changed, and tracking its status and how Amazon handles it may be informative.


To catch up on the book's evolving situation: It was removed from sale as noted above, although it's unclear whether the authors removed it or Amazon did. It was still up on other sales venues, which suggests Amazon pulled it. It then reappeared on Amazon at some point without any discernible changes to the cover, title or description. However, it had no rank as of mid-day (CT) on July 20. It then disappeared off Amazon again mid-afternoon July 20. Still up on the other venues.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> To catch up on the book's evolving situation: It was removed from sale as noted above, although it's unclear whether the authors removed it or Amazon did. It was still up on other sales venues, which suggests Amazon pulled it. It then reappeared on Amazon at some point without any discernible changes to the cover, title or description. However, it had no rank as of mid-day (CT) on July 20. It then disappeared off Amazon again mid-afternoon July 20. Still up on the other venues.


Amazon told me they asked the publisher to fix something in the book and it would be back on pre-order once that has been fixed. That was on thursday. I'm confused why Alinka is sending out emails asking if readers have dived into the book yet when it's not available until October.


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## My_Txxxx_a$$_Left_Too (Feb 13, 2014)

Content removed due to TOS Change of 2018. I do not agree to the terms.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

WasAnn said:


> It's back up now and the difference is that the links to the website are off the blurb. That's pretty much it.


Well, also, all mention of the $5000 in bonus material is now off the cover and out of the title and the blurb, including the bit about sending in your receipt in exchange for the bonus stuff. Of course, the incentivizing is still happening in ads and emails off-site.

Could be it's flagged now, and Amazon will re-evaluate once the manuscript is locked down just before going live and is in its final form. Amazon won't know if it's a placeholder file or a draft or the intended final version that's loaded right now, but they'll have 4 days once there's no question it's the final to decide.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the blurb can be changed via Author Central. The review of the blurb that happens through the KDP dashboard is usually a little more strict when it comes to elements such as .com and dollar amounts. So what's loaded in the dashboard may not be reflective of what's live on the page via AC. And since books that are not pubbed through KDP and that may be pubbed under different rules can be changed in AC, AC is harder to police.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

I'm not seeing the problem with this book that others are. It looks like pretty standard non-fiction marketing practice to me. Non-fiction comes with a platform: classes, instructional material, bonus tips, etc--interested readers who want a deeper dive sign up to learn more. Totally standard practice in trade publishing. The original instruction book is ALWAYS just one plank of the program. Is $5000+ in bonus material an incentive to buy the book? Heck yes. Non-fiction readers EXPECT to get bonus stuff because it's standard. Log in receipt to receive more? This is also common practice. Buy a non-fiction book in print and there will be a code at the back to log into the website to access bonuses.


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## CLStone (Apr 4, 2013)

doolittle03 said:


> I'm not seeing the problem with this book that others are. It looks like pretty standard non-fiction marketing practice to me. Non-fiction comes with a platform: classes, instructional material, bonus tips, etc--interested readers who want a deeper dive sign up to learn more. Totally standard practice in trade publishing. The original instruction book is ALWAYS just one plank of the program. Is $5000+ in bonus material an incentive to buy the book? Heck yes. Non-fiction readers EXPECT to get bonus stuff because it's standard. Log in receipt to receive more? This is also common practice. Buy a non-fiction book in print and there will be a code at the back to log into the website to access bonuses.


This is what I would like to know. Googling "incentive for book preorder" will garner loads of nonfiction (and several trade fiction) books that do this. In this case, is it just because it's on the Amazon page itself and that's against TOS? Or is the whole concept to incentive a sale not allowed at all on Amazon? And is it just Amazon?

Sweepstakes or bonuses for purchase for books seems pretty common in trade and nonfiction now that I've been looking around. There are fiction titles that rewards people for purchasing with bookmarks and a chance to win. Obviously companies like Harlequin and Sourcebooks are following laws and TOS. Are indie fiction authors holding ourselves to a strange set of standards that no one else is by outing and pointing fingers at anyone else who does run some sort of incentive to purchase?


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

I'm unsubscribing from most of the authors/marketers in this ebook. The emails are starting to come in from each author and I am not going to be paying for a private consultation or paying for a course. 

My bad for giving them my email address but it's an address I use for random things like prize draws, surveys and food coupons.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

The book is down from Amazon again.


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## Wolfpack (Jun 20, 2013)

PhoenixS said:


> The book is down from Amazon again.


Still up on the other platforms. And the verbiage regarding submitting a receipt for $5,000 in bonuses is still there.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2018)

CLStone said:


> This is what I would like to know. Googling "incentive for book preorder" will garner loads of nonfiction (and several trade fiction) books that do this. In this case, is it just because it's on the Amazon page itself and that's against TOS? Or is the whole concept to incentive a sale not allowed at all on Amazon? And is it just Amazon?


Posting this for the THIRD time now, from the Amazon TOS:



> Section 5.1.2 Content Requirements: "You may not include in any Digital Book any advertisements or other content that is primarily intended to advertise or promote products or services."


The issue at hand is that THIS SPECIFIC BOOK appears to be nothing more than an advertisement to go to the website and sign up for the services. There is a HUGE and FUNDAMENTAL difference between "buy this book and get a free bookmark" and "this entire product is designed specifically to drive you to a third party website to sign up for a mailing list that we will use to market other services to you."

And BTW, sweepstakes are illegal unless there is a way to enter the sweepstakes that is not dependent on a purchase. You cannot legally run a sweepstakes where the only way to enter is a purchase.

In addition, there is the legal matter as to whether or not the "bonus" is actually a real bonus of not. The publisher is valuing the bonus as having a value of $5,000? But what is that value based on? The entire bonus is self-referring, like vanity awards where you pay to enter and the "prizes" are all services from the company sponsoring the prize. I would argue the "bonus" is inflated and arbitrary, with no actual real value at all. It's simply a means of tricking people into joining a mailing list so they can be spammed for fee-based services.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

doolittle03 said:


> I'm not seeing the problem with this book that others are. It looks like pretty standard non-fiction marketing practice to me. Non-fiction comes with a platform: classes, instructional material, bonus tips, etc--interested readers who want a deeper dive sign up to learn more. Totally standard practice in trade publishing. The original instruction book is ALWAYS just one plank of the program. Is $5000+ in bonus material an incentive to buy the book? Heck yes. Non-fiction readers EXPECT to get bonus stuff because it's standard. Log in receipt to receive more? This is also common practice. Buy a non-fiction book in print and there will be a code at the back to log into the website to access bonuses.


For the bonus, not only are they requiring the receipt, but also an email address. Which, hey, maybe that's the only way to get the bonus. Only by giving your email (to receive your bonus) your email is shared with all of the other authors involved. You are signed up to X email lists to be bombarded with upsells to expensive courses and consultations and other things.

None of that was disclosed on the Amazon page (when it was on it.) Nor is it on the other sites.

So it's false advertising as well. I'm not getting bonuses for purchasing the book. I'm getting bonuses if I purchase the book AND give up my email.

Frankly, my email is worth more than $0.99. I might purchase a book if I thought I was getting $5k in bonuses for just my measly $0.99. But to find out after I buy, i have to not only surrender my email address but also agree to allow X amount of authors to email me, makes the bonuses cost a lot more than advertised.

And usually the whole you agree to share your email with X amount of people is in tiny letters....


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

If emails are being added to more than one list, that's a clear breach of GDPR.


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## C. Gockel (Jan 28, 2014)

The book is down, or as Phoenix Sullivan would say, "The book's been doggied again."

(Can we get that added to Urban Dictionary?)


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

I've received an email to say the pre-order has been cancelled by the publisher 

I listened to the webinar from Daniel Hall and Amy Collins. Not impressed. Especially not impressed by the expensive program being sold towards the end of the webinar.

$3000 a month.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I've received an email to say the pre-order has been cancelled by the publisher
> 
> I listened to the webinar from Daniel Hall and Amy Collins. Not impressed. Especially not impressed by the expensive program being sold towards the end of the webinar.
> 
> $3000 a month.


Does the $3000 a month include all the meal cooking, house cleaning, babysitting, and daily massages so you can focus on publishing?

I was going to say something like 'The only person I would pay $3000 for would be Mark Dawson for one on one training' but, sorry Mark, even that is waaaaaay too much


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I've received an email to say the pre-order has been cancelled by the publisher
> 
> I listened to the webinar from Daniel Hall and Amy Collins. Not impressed. Especially not impressed by the expensive program being sold towards the end of the webinar.
> 
> $3000 a month.


I guess if you hype yourself up enough, someone will pay for it. It's sad because someone that's desperate enough will scrape up the money thinking this is what they need to break through to become successful.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

This is a great discussion and as one of the contributing authors, I can add a little context to help clarify some confusion. 

Note that I'm not the one putting this book together, so I'm not entirely clear myself on how everything was/is being done.

Before getting into issues of TOS, the intention of the book itself is to be a great book for authors regardless of any bonus content. It's not a sales pamphlet designed as a book. This book stands on its own with or without bonuses, and I'm totally cool just removing the whole bonus thing altogether. 

With regards to the bonuses, consider for a moment the common practice of offering a free book in exchange for an email, or free tickets to an event, or a free ecourse as a bonus in a book. These are both common (and seemingly allowed practices) on Amazon. The question is when does it cross a line? In this case, Amazon didn't find this to be in TOS, and naturally the book will be updated to be compliant. This is a great lesson for us all to learn what not to do. Speaking for myself personally, I don't want to do anything that's against TOS for ethical and practical reasons, and I can assume the other authors feel the same. Most people are cool with an author offering bonuses if they're selling on their own website, so the ethics of bonuses aren't the issue, but rather complying with a platform's rules. We want to play by the rules and that's why this is such a great discussion. 

Now why offer this bonus in the first place? I see comments about sleezy tactics as if it's just about making money. Look, I LOVE making money and getting book sales and of course I consider how things can improve my business. However it often starts with "How can we GIVE more?" These aren't discounts. They're actual trainings that were sold for money we're bonusing in for free. We wanted to make this such a value packed book people would be crazy not to buy it. And yes, it does help build up our reputation and following ONLY if people choose to follow a particular author. Emails are NOT being added to more than one list which as noted would be against GDPR and other regulations. Readers will only hear from those they've specifically signed up to learn more from.

When making any decision, I put myself in the readers shoes. I go, "If I were buying this book, would it be worth it to me? Am I getting 10x back compared to what I invested?"

In this case, the reader would get FAR more than they invest. That's a win win all around, so long as it's done within TOS which we must comply to, otherwise Amazon won't sell the book. Our goal is to make this so that Amazon's happy, readers are happy, and then the authors benefit only if and when readers find they delivered enough value to be worth following.

I believe in creating win win win outcomes as that's all that can be sustainable, ethical, and ecological. Any input is welcome on how we can ensure everyone has a great experience we all feel good about.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

A word to the organisers:

If you want info on marketing, a bundle like this sounds like a great idea. Like we do with our fiction bundles, let each contributor provide a page with links to the website and other books or whatever. Just one page, after the main material of the contributed book. One page for each contributor. That's how it works for fiction bundles. Let the books in the bundle speak for themselves.

Trust me, if the book in the bundle is good, people WILL come and buy more. They will sign up for your courses. Trust your own words. You're marketers. You should be good at this.

As the selfpublishing community as a whole we are. Just. So. Tired. Of. Being Up-sold. To.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Hope said:


> I guess if you hype yourself up enough, someone will pay for it. It's sad because someone that's desperate enough will scrape up the money thinking this is what they need to break through to become successful.


That's the thing, some people are desperate to make money or achieve success in some field (writing, making passive income, starting a small business, starting a blog) and some people see that and create these expensive courses and then give you the hard sell.

There is not one author or teacher that I would pay $3000 a month to or $3000 for the entire course. Not even a top 10 bestselling romance author who said he/she could teach me how to write a bestseller.

Every webinar I've watched lately has been 30-40 minutes of rambling and a big sales pitch for the persons expensive course/program. Most of them cannot even tell you who their clients are but they will tell you that they have coached top 100 bestselling authors.

So far the bonuses from this book have been lacking. It might be good for a complete beginner who has not read about self-publishing or spent time on this site.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

HopelessFanatic said:


> Does the $3000 a month include all the meal cooking, house cleaning, babysitting, and daily massages so you can focus on publishing?
> 
> I was going to say something like 'The only person I would pay $3000 for would be Mark Dawson for one on one training' but, sorry Mark, even that is waaaaaay too much


Funny. I would love to know exactly what you are paying $3000 a month for. For that I expect a one on one week at an oceanside hideaway with breakfast at least. The coach better show me some credentials for that money too.


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## Avery342 (Aug 23, 2016)

BellaJames said:


> I'm unsubscribing from most of the authors/marketers in this ebook. The emails are starting to come in from each author and I am not going to be paying for a private consultation or paying for a course.
> 
> My bad for giving them my email address but it's an address I use for random things like prize draws, surveys and food coupons.


I'm confused, and would love it if you could answer a question for me, Bella. According to DerekD, a person would have to sign up for each individual author's list... but the way I read your post was that you started getting emails from all of them after giving your email address once.

I might be reading something into your comment, though, that wasn't there. Did you sign up to all the author's lists that you got emails from?


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Avery342 said:


> I'm confused, and would love it if you could answer a question for me, Bella. According to DerekD, a person would have to sign up for each individual author's list... but the way I read your post was that you started getting emails from all of them after giving your email address once.
> 
> I might be reading something into your comment, though, that wasn't there. Did you sign up to all the author's lists that you got emails from?


My speculative guess based on Derek's post is that the list you are signing up for, while one list, is promoting all the authors. This complies, and isn't unheard of.

For example, for a co-authored book and series, both my co-author and I have welcome emails sent as introductions to our solo work, as well as about this specific series. But those signing up for it are not added to either of our solo lists. Neither of us use it to promote our solo work other than an email inviting to join our solo lists.

But there are only two of us, instead of many.

But this is entirely speculation. I assumed multiple lists based on receiving emails from multiple authors, but keeping to one list and not adding names to individual lists complies but can, theoretically, accomplish the same thing.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

DerekD said:


> This is a great discussion and as one of the contributing authors, I can add a little context to help clarify some confusion.
> 
> Note that I'm not the one putting this book together, so I'm not entirely clear myself on how everything was/is being done.


So to be clear, *as a publishing professional*, you allowed your work to be published without a legal, clear contract explaining the exact nature of the book and how it would be presented to the public, and you had NO IDEA that readers would be expected to go to a third-party site and sign up for a bunch of newsletters, INCLUDING YOUR OWN? You, as a *professional who sells self-help books and services *to advise other authors, allowed your work to be used in a manner like this and had NO ADVANCED IDEA that it would be used this way?

THAT is what you are telling us?


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Avery342 said:


> I'm confused, and would love it if you could answer a question for me, Bella. According to DerekD, a person would have to sign up for each individual author's list... but the way I read your post was that you started getting emails from all of them after giving your email address once.
> 
> I might be reading something into your comment, though, that wasn't there. Did you sign up to all the author's lists that you got emails from?


I signed up for the $5000 bonus by giving my email address and proof of my Amazon pre-order.

Then I downloaded Christine Kloser's free book in PDF format and yes I had to give my email address. Now I am getting emails to sign up for a consultation with her.

I had one more email and to be honest I deleted it in frustration when I was clearing out my junk mail box. So I cannot tell you which author sent it.

I've received 3 or 4 emails from Alinka but I did not sign up for any of her webinars or master classes so she is using my email address from my original sign up for the bonuses. The first email I received was asking me if I had read the book, but the book was still a pre-order.

It looks like most of the bonuses require you to enter your email address to access a webinar, a pdf document or a course.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I signed up for the $5000 bonus by giving my email address and proof of my Amazon pre-order.
> 
> Then I downloaded Christine Kloser's free book in PDF format and yes I had to give my email address. Now I am getting emails to sign up for a consultation with her.
> 
> ...


For clarification, before you can access some of the bonus content, you have to give up your email address to each? That circumvents the GDPR restrictions, but also makes the offer of bonuses misleading (and close to fraud imo. Not jail-time fraud, but icky fraud.)


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

HopelessFanatic said:


> I was going to say something like 'The only person I would pay $3000 for would be Mark Dawson for one on one training' but, sorry Mark, even that is waaaaaay too much


*I* wouldn't pay me $3k. My goodness. I'm curious what is included for that price.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

doolittle03 said:


> I'm not seeing the problem with this book that others are. It looks like pretty standard non-fiction marketing practice to me. Non-fiction comes with a platform: classes, instructional material, bonus tips, etc--interested readers who want a deeper dive sign up to learn more. Totally standard practice in trade publishing. The original instruction book is ALWAYS just one plank of the program. Is $5000+ in bonus material an incentive to buy the book? Heck yes. Non-fiction readers EXPECT to get bonus stuff because it's standard. Log in receipt to receive more? This is also common practice. Buy a non-fiction book in print and there will be a code at the back to log into the website to access bonuses.


Having recently published a non-fiction book it now makes sense why I suddenly began getting these emails.  I have not taken them up on this.

M_y name is ********* and I work for an online course production company called *********

Saw that you're an ebook author and I wanted to check if youconsidered building an online course around that?

I usually talk with people that start the conversation with us with one of 4 sentences.

A. "I want to build my online course but I'm not sure where to start. I have a draft of my ideas."

B. "I know exactly what needs to be done. I just need help executing the plan."

C. "I already have a course. I just want more people to know about it."

D. "This is totally irrelevant to me. I have no interesting in building courses or training programs (No hard feelings!)"

If you're A, B or C then honestly you should ping me back.
_


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

[Deleting my posts in response to the unannounced TOS change (IP rights grab) for KBoards that was initiated by the new forum owner (VerticalScope) in 2018]


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

HopelessFanatic said:


> For clarification, before you can access some of the bonus content, you have to give up your email address to each? That circumvents the GDPR restrictions, but also makes the offer of bonuses misleading (and close to fraud imo. Not jail-time fraud, but icky fraud.)


Yes to access the individual webinars, pdf documents, courses etc you have to put in your email address. So none of them are open and accessible without giving an email address again.

For example (since Derek has responded in this thread). On the bonus page it says $197 from Derek Doepker: The Bestseller Journey.

Then you have to give an email address to access the material. 
It says *Enroll our newsletter for free books, updates, The Bestseller Journey Simplified, book release details and more.*


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> A word to the organisers:
> 
> If you want info on marketing, a bundle like this sounds like a great idea. Like we do with our fiction bundles, let each contributor provide a page with links to the website and other books or whatever. Just one page, after the main material of the contributed book. One page for each contributor. That's how it works for fiction bundles. Let the books in the bundle speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


This is actually pretty close to how it is.

The thing is, this is actually a way to NOT sell more. By including things for free, there's not a bunch of hard sells and readers get a TON for only a buck. I can't fathom any reader taking issue with getting a bunch of bonuses.

I don't think any of the authors contributing to this did so because they need to. When you look at the intention, what's being offered is giving the readers more for their dollar. Personally, I'm probably costing myself sales I could make by giving away one of my courses for free. Yet for the exact reasons you mentioned, I know those who resonate with my work will want to go deeper. Those that don't get something at a great deal without needing to hear a bunch of sales pitches if they don't want to hear them. Win win all around.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Avery342 said:


> I'm confused, and would love it if you could answer a question for me, Bella. According to DerekD, a person would have to sign up for each individual author's list... but the way I read your post was that you started getting emails from all of them after giving your email address once.
> 
> I might be reading something into your comment, though, that wasn't there. Did you sign up to all the author's lists that you got emails from?


If a person wants to get a particular author's bonus, they'd need to sign up for that author's list individually. This is necessary for both legal compliance reasons as well as practical reasons of deliverability. This means a person won't hear from an author unless they've specifically chosen to.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So to be clear, *as a publishing professional*, you allowed your work to be published without a legal, clear contract explaining the exact nature of the book and how it would be presented to the public, and you had NO IDEA that readers would be expected to go to a third-party site and sign up for a bunch of newsletters, INCLUDING YOUR OWN? You, as a *professional who sells self-help books and services *to advise other authors, allowed your work to be used in a manner like this and had NO ADVANCED IDEA that it would be used this way?
> 
> THAT is what you are telling us?


No, that's not what I'm telling you nor is it what is occurring, and I'm unclear how you'd come to those assumptions (loaded into questions) based on what I said. Generally if a person is looking for clarification, they'd ask a more open ended question. As of now, I'm not even sure what it is you're wanting clarity on.

If it has to do with me saying I'm not clear on everything that was done, that doesn't mean I don't understand most of it, so much so that I'll volunteer to come on here without being asked and provide some context. Rather that means some questions may be best directed to the organizer and not me.

That brings up a good point though...

Have you ever had there be a miscommunication or misunderstanding with say a co-worker, family member, or friend, and then they went and talked about you and the problem behind your back? Then you think, "If they just came to me, we could have sorted this all out. Why are they going to someone else?"

Or perhaps with a reader who finds a fault with something in a book, and instead of letting you know so you can correct it, they go and leave a bad review.

I've been conscious of this recently, and striving to ask myself, "Is the person/people I'm bringing this up to able to address this or explain this? If not, why am I going to them?"

How that relates to this thread is a lot of understanding could be achieved if people simply went to the creators of the book, and gave them the benefit of the doubt that they have good intentions and want to make a great product for everyone. Things would get cleared up, questions would get answered, and we may be able to co-create something that is awesome for everyone and all within TOS. Doesn't that seem like a better approach?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

DerekD said:


> If a person wants to get a particular author's bonus, they'd need to sign up for that author's list individually. This is necessary for both legal compliance reasons as well as practical reasons of deliverability.


Can we talk about "legality" for a moment?

The original book did not inform consumers that they would be required to sign up individually to get each authors...um...bonus content. It explicitly told consumers that they would simply have to go to a third party website and upload their receipt to prove the purchase. By then forcing the consumer to engage in additional UNDISCLOSED activities, and agree to ADDITIONAL terms (i.e. join a mailing list to get the content), you may have broken the law in several states and the FTC regarding disclosure.

In addition, as it appears people can sign up for these mailing lists and get the "bonus content" individually without purchasing the book, the "bonus" was never a "bonus" for purchasing to begin with. Again, this make the bonus potentially fraudulent under FTC regulations, because there is in fact no "bonus" associated with the purchase. The material is available to anyone that signs up for the mailing list.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

SallyRose said:


> I find that statement fairly shocking. Isn't writing/publishing, in theory, your career. You're holding yourself up as an expert. Joining a project and putting your name and reputation on the line without understanding "how everything was/is being done" is not at all professional. Add to that the book is purportedly to teach people how to write/publish successfully, and it's just scary.


How so? I appreciate the sentiment, and so it may take some clarification on my word choices. The word used is "everything." I don't know anyone who knows everything. So if you ask about "What did Amazon say," I might not have an answer but could get an answer. That being said, I know enough to take personal responsibility and accept the risk to my reputation. A professional doesn't know everything, rather they know enough to make calculated decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. I'm sure if you explore your own life and actions, you can admit you don't know everything including every single decision others on a project may make, right? The only way to say to the alternative is to claim superhuman abilities.



SallyRose said:


> I'm all for bonus content. I've downloaded some very valuable bonus content from both fiction and nonfiction offers.
> 
> You note comments on your book about "sleezy" tactics. I didn't comment earlier in the thread, but I did see the original listing on Amazon, driving buyers to the "rich authors" website and even the book title about getting rich writing...it just smacks of trying to attract newbies who believe there is still some kind of Kindle Gold Rush going on and you're going to teach them how to print money by the wheelbarrow full. So yeah, nothing about this gave me the impression it was an attempt to "GIVE more" - seemed like a "said the spider to the fly" approach to me.


Yeah that get rich language can come across that way. Yet the intention remains in giving people what they want. I've learned how to make a nice income from selling books, and if that's what some people want to hear about, that's how it can be positioned. If it's not your cup of tea or at your level, isn't it better that you're driven away from it?

Now if the claim were made it was effortless to become rich, I'd argue that's misleading people. Yet if we're saying "here's the path if that's your goal," then people can self-select if they're into that or not.

_Quoted material and response removed, pursuant to this. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Can we talk about "legality" for a moment?
> 
> *The original book did not inform consumers that they would be required to sign up individually to get each authors...um...bonus content. It explicitly told consumers that they would simply have to go to a third party website and upload their receipt to prove the purchase.* By then forcing the consumer to engage in additional UNDISCLOSED activities, and agree to ADDITIONAL terms (i.e. join a mailing list to get the content), you may have broken the law in several states and the FTC regarding disclosure.
> 
> *In addition, as it appears people can sign up for these mailing lists and get the "bonus content" individually without purchasing the book, the "bonus" was never a "bonus" for purchasing to begin with. *Again, this make the bonus potentially fraudulent under FTC regulations, because there is in fact no "bonus" associated with the purchase. The material is available to anyone that signs up for the mailing list.


^ ^
This

I pre-ordered this book and it said $5000 worth of bonuses.

I received a list of bonuses that all require me to sign up individually for more material (a webinar, a pdf document, a course or whatever) and then my email address is used to _spam me_ with offers to watch a webinar filled with repetitive promises and information that is easily accessible on any website on self-publishing. No doubt it will include an expensive program at the end, I guarantee that.

Or I will be asked to join an expensive course, to pay for a consultation or buy another book by one of those authors.

I will not be signing up for any more of these 'bonuses'. I have unsubscribed from all of them, it was only 2.

I am surprised that Derek Murphy is involved in this, I got the original email and recommendation from him. I have been enjoying his videos lately, although I was not a fan of his videos before.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> Can we talk about "legality" for a moment?
> 
> The original book did not inform consumers that they would be required to sign up individually to get each authors...um...bonus content. It explicitly told consumers that they would simply have to go to a third party website and upload their receipt to prove the purchase. By then forcing the consumer to engage in additional UNDISCLOSED activities, and agree to ADDITIONAL terms (i.e. join a mailing list to get the content), you may have broken the law in several states and the FTC regarding disclosure.
> 
> In addition, as it appears people can sign up for these mailing lists and get the "bonus content" individually without purchasing the book, the "bonus" was never a "bonus" for purchasing to begin with. Again, this make the bonus potentially fraudulent under FTC regulations, because there is in fact no "bonus" associated with the purchase. The material is available to anyone that signs up for the mailing list.


These are some great points and definitely something to get clarity on so we're all ensuring we're FTC compliant. And generally speaking more transparency and disclosure is a safe bet regardless.

In regards to the idea that the material is available to anyone that signs up for the list, the only way someone's going to see my bonus page is through a special signup link from the book, or whomever I choose to give that link to privately.

Put more simply, these are not all things the authors are offering the general public although perhaps some are. Rather these are pages only intended to be seen and accessed by purchasers of the book. That's not a legal consideration, more of a general note and consideration that it truly is intended to be a "bonus" of real value and not simply a term thrown out there for something that a person could easily find elsewhere.

The original concern of disclosing this extra step remains and I appreciate you bringing this up.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that this tactic - offering "incentives" on the product page or in the back of the book, without disclosing that further signing up is required, is a breach of GDPR. Without commenting on the other points others have raised vis a vis whether this is FTC compliant, I am consenting to join a mailing list because I have been led to believe that I'll get the bonuses when I hand over my email. I am doing so on the basis that the bonuses will be delivered forthwith; my consent might not be given if I knew that I had to sign up for multiple lists to get what I had been promised. With the caveat that I'm not a lawyer (any longer), this feels risky to me.


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## S.R. (May 19, 2016)

[Deleting my posts in response to the unannounced TOS change (IP rights grab) for KBoards that was initiated by the new forum owner (VerticalScope) in 2018]


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

DerekD said:


> These are some great points and definitely something to get clarity on so we're all ensuring we're FTC compliant. And generally speaking more transparency and disclosure is a safe bet regardless.
> 
> In regards to the idea that the material is available to anyone that signs up for the list, the only way someone's going to see my bonus page is through a special signup link from the book, or whomever I choose to give that link to privately.
> 
> ...


Derek you are confusing me now. If I have already pre-ordered the book and sent my receipt to access the bonus material, why have I got to give my email address to every author in that book?

Nowhere did it say, bonus material is only accessible if you sign up to each authors newsletter or mailing list.

Here is the sales page for this offer

https://authorremake.com/wagr_super_bonus/* It says free bonuses, it does not mention giving out your email address to 22 or 23 authors/marketers. *

I don't know how to do screenshots on here.

*I will be making a complaint to Amazon about this book and the authors involved because it was never made clear that you had to sign up for 23 mailing lists/newsletters or to gain access to secret material.*


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Mark Dawson said:


> I'm pretty sure that this tactic - offering "incentives" on the product page or in the back of the book, without disclosing that further signing up is required, is a breach of GDPR. Without commenting on the other points others have raised vis a vis whether this is FTC compliant, I am consenting to join a mailing list because I have been led to believe that I'll get the bonuses when I hand over my email. I am doing so on the basis that the bonuses will be delivered forthwith; my consent might not be given if I knew that I had to sign up for multiple lists to get what I had been promised. With the caveat that I'm not a lawyer (any longer), this feels risky to me.


Thanks for your input Mark. As a side note, I've been recommending the podcast episode you did on GDPR to my followers who asked about it and received notes of thanks for how helpful it was to them. You do amazing work and helped me when dealing with GDPR myself.

Regardless of legality, it only seems fair and beneficial for all involved to have more disclosure and transparency. I'm going to bring this up with the organizer and, if bonuses even continue, make sure there's appropriate wording/transparency (or adjusting overall structure).

The thing to consider is, if you don't like how something is done, you're welcome to tell us. You can be proactive and reach out to the authors and request what you like. This is a bit of a personal pet peeve as of late where I notice when someone doesn't like something, they may complain among peers but aren't proactive in actually doing something to create a change, such as going to decision makers. I myself have been as guilty as anyone of that, so it starts with me keeping myself in check on that.

If you found out you were doing something that upset a reader, or a reader noticed something you're doing that may not be compliant with a term, wouldn't you greatly appreciate them reaching out and kindly letting you know? It seems more sneaky to me to go behind people's backs when one never knows if that person/organization may welcome feedback and make adjustments. Not saying anyone here is doing that, more a general observation that this thread felt like it was starting to lean towards at times.

Consider, we WANT people to be happy with their experience. Unhappy customers and readers are poor business for everyone. And satisfied customers/readers who feel like everything is on the up and up benefit everyone.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

SallyRose said:


> It doesn't require superhuman abilities to undertake enough due diligence on a project to ensure you understand that the way it's being handled isn't so far out of bounds that Amazon will remove it from sale...especially when your project is on the topic of teaching newbies to publish


Yes, and we're aware and making appropriate changes. If it helps add more context, this was run by Amazon before publishing and originally they were OK with it from what I was told. So a level of due diligence was done.



SallyRose said:


> My only final thought is to any new writers/publishers considering purchasing this book or following any of the "bonus" advice -- or even following anyone outside this group of authors who claims they can show you the path to "get rich" publishing -- CAVEAT EMPTOR -- do a lot of research on any individual before you implement any advice or strategies. Do this before you part with any $$$ and do it before you take any free advice. It's the only way to protect your reputation and your career.
> 
> Free advice can become very costly to you if it comes from someone who doesn't fully understand retailer TOS or FTC rules.


This is great advice in general. And a disclaimer to give to anyone going into business. Rules change or are updated regularly, such as with GDPR recently.

There's always a risk/reward that needs to be weighed. Some people never get started because there's a risk they might break a TOS inadvertently which leads to paralysis. And again with GDPR for instance, there were so many different interpretations that even big name companies with huge legal teams messed things up and got fined sending out emails they weren't supposed to. It goes to show that not everything in the legal and TOS world is black and white. Then there's an opposite careless approach that gets some authors in trouble where they don't consider the consequences or terms at all. Either of these two extremes is detrimental, so we're constantly weighing what is an acceptable level of risk and taking personal responsibility for our actions as business owners.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

BellaJames said:


> Derek you are confusing me now. If I have already pre-ordered the book and sent my receipt to access the bonus material, why have I got to give my email address to every author in that book?
> 
> No where did it say, bonus material is only accessible if you sign up to each authors newsletter or mailing list.
> 
> ...


If we continue the bonuses, I'm going to ask there's a different way of wording this to provide full disclosure. You're of course welcome to email Amazon. However, if you'd prefer, we can work together to find a solution that makes everyone happy. If you want me to send you my bonus without signing up for my email list, I'm totally cool doing that. I'm requesting to the organizer that there is at the very list a form of disclosure in the meantime to ensure there are no surprises and readers get a great experience.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

DerekD said:


> Thanks for your input Mark. As a side note, I've been recommending the podcast episode you did on GDPR to my followers who asked about it and received notes of thanks for how helpful it was to them. You do amazing work and helped me when dealing with GDPR myself.


Thanks for the kind words. Glad to help.

My issue - well, one of them - with this is that at least one of the upselling authors is pitching something for $3k a month, as reported up thread. *That's three thousand dollars a month*. I don't know that author. I don't want to know that author. And, when the book has sold 2,000 copies, as reported by the organizer, that's a big pool of potential authors/victims who could see that deal and think that it was a good idea. In those circumstances, I think it behooves those who disagree with what they are seeing to broadcast that caution should be exercised in a way that as many people as possible see it. I'm certainly not saying that everyone involved is guilty of that kind of behaviour. There are contributors involved whom I know and like, and consider good people. But I'm not sure that everyone is quite as ethical.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

DerekD said:


> With regards to the bonuses, consider for a moment the common practice of offering a free book in exchange for an email, or free tickets to an event, or a free ecourse as a bonus in a book. These are both common (and seemingly allowed practices) on Amazon. The question is when does it cross a line? In this case, Amazon didn't find this to be in TOS, and naturally the book will be updated to be compliant. This is a great lesson for us all to learn what not to do.
> ...
> I believe in creating win win win outcomes as that's all that can be sustainable, ethical, and ecological. Any input is welcome on how we can ensure everyone has a great experience we all feel good about.


Thanks for engaging in civil discussion here, Derek.

Can you tell us, so we as authors can all be educated, what exactly was it that Amazon saw as the line crosser? What will you be revising in your book or metadata to make it compliant?


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2018)

DerekD said:


> The thing to consider is, if you don't like how something is done, you're welcome to tell us.


You are person who sells high priced self-help books and services to authors on HOW TO PUBLISH and make money. It is not my job to inform you when your business practices may be out of line with state, federal, and international law. That is the job of your attorney. You are presenting yourself as an expert in your field, and expecting people to pay you money for your knowledge. It is your job to make sure that your business is being run legally and ethically. I have zero moral or ethical compulsion to do that for you.

Because my personal pet peeve are people who claim to be experts in a field and charge for their knowledge, only to reveal how little they actually know about the topic. This is not a case of a newbie who doesn't understand the technical aspects of the TOS who might have done something accidentally uploading their first book (because in those cases, I will reach out privately.) Nor is this a matter of just not "liking" something. This is a matter about the legality of a product that was placed for sale on the market.

The fact that you charge so much for your time and expect others to give you their time for free and point out where you may be breaking the law is funny to me.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

DerekD said:


> The thing to consider is, if you don't like how something is done, you're welcome to tell us. You can be proactive and reach out to the authors and request what you like. This is a bit of a personal pet peeve as of late where I notice when someone doesn't like something, they may complain among peers but aren't proactive in actually doing something to create a change, such as going to decision makers. I myself have been as guilty as anyone of that, so it starts with me keeping myself in check on that.


I've just been reading this thread up until now, but this particular comment bothered me enough that I'm going to jump in for a moment.

The actual thing to consider here is, you and the other authors behind that book presented yourselves as experts in book marketing. And I'm not even paraphrasing: The description claims to offer "expert guidance." I think it's reasonable to expect that an expert on self-publishing is paying at least a little attention to what's going on with Amazon's approach to self-publishing. I don't know how anyone who's paying attention can have failed to notice all the commotion in the last couple months around policies like incentivizing purchases of ebooks (not that this wasn't selling out clearly in the TOS prior to that, but it's become incredibly more obvious recently). Heck, I don't know how anyone who is capable of basic logical thought could fail to realize that it's hugely misleading to say, "Give your receipt and address and you'll get all these bonuses" when there are actually 20+ more hoops to jump through to get all the bonuses.

When I see someone doing something wrong, and everything points to the fact that they should know what they're doing is wrong, then I'm naturally going to assume they're doing it wrong on purpose. Why would I want to interact with someone who's purposely trying to mislead or break rules? Instead I'm going to warn other people about them.

I'd imagine this is the same thought process that's gone through the minds of the people who've posted about this.

You can't really have it both ways. Either you're an expert self-publisher who can teach people effective and above-board ways of becoming more successful at self-publishing, in which case you should be familiar with the very basic considerations people have been talking about, or you're clueless about basic Amazon policies and how to market in a straightforward manner, in which case you have no business asking people to spend any money listening to your advice.


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## Taking my troll a$$ outta here (Apr 8, 2013)

As to the thread topic on TOS violations:



DerekD said:


> How that relates to this thread is a lot of understanding could be achieved if people simply went to the creators of the book, and gave them the benefit of the doubt that they have good intentions and want to make a great product for everyone. Things would get cleared up, questions would get answered, and we may be able to co-create something that is awesome for everyone and all within TOS. Doesn't that seem like a better approach?


So everyone should just shut up and go to the creators and listen to them instead of discussing a matter of concern with their peers? No, thank you, that's the exact mindset that allowed tons of authors to get involved with shady promoters advertised on this very board who have had Amazon accounts terminated and/or are involved in lawsuits.

If you and the other authors are such experts in the field, you should not need to get any help to "co-create" anything. You should already know what tactics are in violation of Amazon's TOS, CAN-SPAM, and all applicable laws pertinent to what you are doing.



> Quote from: DerekD on Today at 03:51:57 AM
> Note that I'm not the one putting this book together, so I'm not entirely clear myself on how everything was/is being done.
> 
> Quote from: SallyRose on Today at 09:40:04 AM
> I find that statement fairly shocking. Isn't writing/publishing, in theory, your career. You're holding yourself up as an expert. Joining a project and putting your name and reputation on the line without understanding "how everything was/is being done" is not at all professional. Add to that the book is purportedly to teach people how to write/publish successfully, and it's just scary.


^^ This, 1000% agree.



BellaJames said:


> Derek you are confusing me now. If I have already pre-ordered the book and sent my receipt to access the bonus material, why have I got to give my email address to every author in that book?
> 
> No where did it say, bonus material is only accessible if you sign up to each authors newsletter or mailing list.
> 
> ...


Yes, this page(see image here) & the (original)book description on Amazon said you get the bonus items for FREE with purchase of the book.
It does not matter if they need to send the free items to your email address; it did not say your email address would be used for anything else. Even if they suddenly include it in tiny print once you hit the landing page, it is still deceptive. Hard Stop. Do Not Pass Go. FREE means _free_; it does not mean we will then use your email address to spam you.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Mark Dawson said:


> Thanks for the kind words. Glad to help.
> 
> My issue - well, one of them - with this is that at least one of the upselling authors is pitching something for $3k a month, as reported up thread. *That's three thousand dollars a month*. I don't know that author. I don't want to know that author. And, when the book has sold 2,000 copies, as reported by the organizer, that's a big pool of potential authors/victims who could see that deal and think that it was a good idea. In those circumstances, I think it behooves those who disagree with what they are seeing to broadcast that caution should be exercised in a way that as many people as possible see it. I'm certainly not saying that everyone involved is guilty of that kind of behaviour. There are contributors involved whom I know and like, and consider good people. But I'm not sure that everyone is quite as ethical.


Speaking simply to the big picture of being asked to invest $3,000 a month without commenting on a particular offer I'm unfamiliar with, there is nothing inherent in that that strikes me as being good/bad, right/wrong. (I'm sure you understand what I'm sharing here Mark as a very savvy business owner, so this is more a general point for anyone reading)

The question we ask as entrepreneurs is, "What will that provide in return?" If it leads to generating more than $3,000 a month, then that's a potentially worthwhile investment. If not, then it may not be worth it unless there are intangible benefits (such as saving a significant amount of time). In other words, would it change if the offer were $3 a month, or $30 a month? What about $30,000 a month? One of my mentors charges over $12,000 an hour for consulting, and gets paid it by those who get more than that in return from business growth. It's all relative to a return, and therefore I don't understand people's hangup with numbers in isolation.

As an example, is a $5 book cover cheaper than a $500 book cover? Is a $500 book cover expensive? Well, it depends... If the $5 book cover leads to no sales, and the $500 book cover leads to thousands of dollars in sales, then $500 is a worthwhile investment, and a $5 cover was MORE expensive than a $500 cover in the long-term.

Again, this isn't intended to comment on any offer in particular. More a way of thinking about money and value as if any number is more or less significant than another.

Questioning whether adequate value can be delivered at XYZ price is healthy skepticism, whereas questioning something on price alone makes little sense.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

EB said:


> So everyone should just shut up and go to the creators and listen to them instead of discussing a matter of concern with their peers? No, thank you, that's the exact mindset that allowed tons of authors to get involved with shady promoters advertised on this very board who have had Amazon accounts terminated and/or are involved in lawsuits.


That seems like a highly unfair misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't tell anyone to shut up, nor that they couldn't discuss with peers as well. One can do both. It's simply an invitation to consider, even outside this context, that you may have more impact by going to decision makers.

I didn't like the way something was done at my gym. I told the person at the front desk, and realized that probably wouldn't do any good. So I asked who the manager was and had a pleasant conversation with her to let her know what I think could be improved. If you want to vent, by all means go to peers. The question is, does that actually create the change you wish to see in the world? What if by letting people you know you don't like what they're doing directly, that actually stops shady behavior and creates a better environment for everyone?



EB said:


> If you and the other authors are such experts in the field, you should not need to get any help to "co-create" anything. You should already know what tactics are in violation of Amazon's TOS, CAN-SPAM, and all applicable laws pertinent to what you are doing.
> ^^ This, 1000% agree.
> 
> Yes, this page(see image here) & the (original)book description on Amazon said you get the bonus items for FREE with purchase of the book.
> It does not matter if they need to send the free items to your email address; it did not say your email address would be used for anything else. Even if they suddenly include it in tiny print once you hit the landing page, it is still deceptive. Hard Stop. Do Not Pass Go. FREE means _free_; it does not mean we will then use your email address to spam you.


Correct, we don't *need* help to co-create anything, yet we all benefit from it, so why not? I believe we all get further by working together.

No one should be spammed once on an email list, and email lists should require disclosure before signing up. I agree, having transparency of the terms of the bonuses would make this a better user experience for everyone.


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## DerekD (Sep 28, 2012)

Megan Crewe said:


> I've just been reading this thread up until now, but this particular comment bothered me enough that I'm going to jump in for a moment.
> 
> The actual thing to consider here is, you and the other authors behind that book presented yourselves as experts in book marketing. And I'm not even paraphrasing: The description claims to offer "expert guidance." I think it's reasonable to expect that an expert on self-publishing is paying at least a little attention to what's going on with Amazon's approach to self-publishing. I don't know how anyone who's paying attention can have failed to notice all the commotion in the last couple months around policies like incentivizing purchases of ebooks (not that this wasn't selling out clearly in the TOS prior to that, but it's become incredibly more obvious recently). Heck, I don't know how anyone who is capable of basic logical thought could fail to realize that it's hugely misleading to say, "Give your receipt and address and you'll get all these bonuses" when there are actually 20+ more hoops to jump through to get all the bonuses.
> 
> ...


Totally fair. And in a sense, why I made this more about a bigger context than this specific issue. As experts, we should be expected to both do and teach things that are all legit, and within TOS. We are potentially seen as role models and therefore all our actions can have an influence. In this regard, criticism to doing something that, purposely or not, violates a TOS, is valid.

I welcome people to hold me to the highest standards. For whatever part I could have played that I didn't to ensure everything with this project is 100% above board and awesome, I apologize for my failings and will strive to make it right with my audience and with the project going forward.

With regards to purposely trying to break rules, consider if that follows logically. Why would someone want to break a rule if that means Amazon would take their book down, and possibly suspend their account? While this isn't meant as an excuse, Amazon was contacted prior to confirm this would be acceptable, and then they decided later it wouldn't be. Now one could argue common sense would indicate this approach is questionable regardless of what an Amazon rep says, and that's totally fair. What isn't fair is to say it was done maliciously or with intent to break rules as that would be self-sabotaging all the effort that went into the book and its promotion.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

I don't know how much I can post on here before the mods start editing my comment.

I just want to show proof that the webinar I watched introduced a program at the end which costs $3000 a month. It is a 6 month program. It is limited to 20 authors at a time and it seems hands on but $3000 a month sounds shocking to me. How many new authors make that much in their first month or 6 months?

Here is the program you can sign up to. https://realfast.clickfunnels.com/quiz-page

If the mods would allow me, I would add the webinar replay.


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## Megan Crewe (Oct 8, 2015)

DerekD said:


> While this isn't meant as an excuse, Amazon was contacted prior to confirm this would be acceptable, and then they decided later it wouldn't be.


Just to be clear, one of the authors contacted Amazon to ask specifically, "Is it okay if we tell readers in the description for the book on Amazon that if they buy the book, they can enter their receipt on a separate website to get $5000 worth of bonus material? And to include the address for that other website in the description? And to mention the offer in the subtitle?" and an Amazon rep said, "Sure, all those things are totally fine!"?

Or did they just ask, "Is it okay if we offer bonuses to people who've purchased the book?" and got an okay to that much more vague question?

I could believe the latter, but I think any expert self publisher should have known that wasn't carte blanche to promote those bonuses as a purchase incentive in any way they felt like it. Even ignoring the bonus aspect altogether, it says very clearly in Amazon's metadata guidelines that they "prohibit" reference to advertisements or promotions in the title and subtitle fields, and website URLs in the book description.

If you want me to believe someone there actually okayed the specifics of how those bonuses were presented, directly in conflict with not one but multiple very clearly stated points in the TOS... I'd probably have to see a screenshot.

Edit: Also, the whole bit about "Why would anyone purposely break the rules?" -- there are multiple posts here in the KBoards about people purposely breaking Amazon's TOS in various ways even though it could have gotten the books taken down or their accounts suspended. They did it because they thought they could get away with it and that they'd make more profit that way. I obviously don't know the motivations of anyone involved in this specific book, but let's not pretend that breaking the rules on purpose isn't something plenty of authors do all the time.

And this: "We are potentially seen as role models and therefore all our actions can have an influence." Potentially? You all put up a book telling aspiring authors that your advice will "help [them] turn books into a six-figure calling." You're *asking* people to treat you as a role model and to be influenced by your actions. That isn't something that happened just by chance.

I'm not really sure what else to say to you, because despite your claims about wanting to make people happy and correct mistakes, your responses seem mainly aimed at downplaying your responsibility.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Thank you for your post Megan Crewe.

Here is the link to the Amazon eBook Metadata Guidelines:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201097560

The ebook listing clearly violated very basic guidelines, especially including the website name and free bonuses in the title (on the original listing) and in the description. This is particularly concerning coming from a group of writers who are saying they are going to teach you how to "write and grow rich" and get exclusive tips from publishing experts - as it states on the book cover.

Also, as mentioned by others, there is absolutely no indication that you have to sign up for multiple email lists to receive the bonuses.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

I have so many opinions on this, but I think I'm going to hold back some in order not to get modded. 

But I do want to point out something very important. It's already been stated what parts of the metadata blatantly break TOS. There's really no argument that those things do so.

It behooves the authors involved to actually check the product page of a book they are involved in. If they had done so, they would have seen that the product page breaks Amazon's TOS in multiple ways. (All of this is ignoring the actual bonuses promised and that can of fish.)

I get a couple of things from this:

1) The authors involved (some at least) never checked the product page. This is unprofessional imo. I won't say lazy, but I'm thinking it, too. Always, always check your product page, especially if someone else is uploading the content.

2) If the authors did check the product page, and saw nothing wrong, I have an even bigger issue. I'm not an expert. I don't charge people for information. And I could. I've been offered and attempts have been made to hire me based on information I freely give. Still not an expert. 

I've also made sure to continually check in with the TOS (because of changes). I also pay attention to what other people point out. I also try not to skirt the line of what is arguably acceptable based on interpretation because interpretation can be wrong. I like my Amazon account thank you very much.

So if any of the authors involved had a good look at the product page, they should have recognized the TOS violations. At worst, they should have double-checked because red flags on that stuff. 

If they didn't know, I would have a very hard time trusting any teaching they might give. If they aren't aware of TOS violations, how do I know they aren't recommending and encouraging activities that break TOS? Even if it isn't intentional but through ignorance? 

Amazon doesn't care. Ignorance isn't going to get a terminated account back. Having an email with a KDP rep that okays your breaking of TOS isn't going to get a terminated account back. 

You can argue the TOS is confusing because there is so much of it (sorta true, but not really. You can go through the whole thing in under a day and then refer back). It's not clear (this is more true, but Amazon has added clarification and clearer language and a lot of stuff lately.) It changes all the time! Eh, not really. Things might get clarified, but for the most part, the actual rule was already there.

And these metadata rules were there before the most recent TOS update. These aren't new. (And it's well known that the TOS has been updated. Anyone who is an expert in self-publishing should be aware of that.)

If someone is going to charge $100 to $3000 a month on a course (look at the prices of the bonuses and what are included. I hope these are inflated prices, because if not, the amount charged is cringey), they better freaking know the rules. They better freaking be up to date with being compliant with laws. 

I personally don't care if someone is going to stretch the TOS or break it (in most cases). Whatever. Not the TOS police. But I take an issue (a huge freaking issue) with teaching and leading others to do those things without that disclosure. Whether intentional or not, teaching strategies that could get someone bounced from Amazon (which can be career ending) or that is illegal is unprofessional at best. 

With all that said, I've seen a bit of backtracking from the authors involved, but I haven't heard (yet) of anyone actually backing out. 

Personally, I would no longer want to be associated with a project that has been shown to be breaking the rules, even if those were fixed. It would call into question for me what else might be going on that I'm not privy of. Shortcuts? Oversights? 

As for the rather large sums of money being charged for some of these bonuses (and I say charged even though it's free to those who preorder/give up their email because for it to have any value at all as a bonus, these courses should be open others at some point. Otherwise, it's just an arbitrary number), I very much believe people should be paid based on the value they offer. 

It's proving that value that's more difficult. Having recently seen how easily testimonials can be faked or misleading or given by someone with financial ties to the person selling the course but not disclosing that fact, add on that I've been burned and have turned rather cynical, I side-eye a lot of this. 

But a newbie? Me a few years ago? Maybe even more recent? All the glowing testimonials would work. And yeah, caveat emptor. 

I'm not talking about any of the specific courses included in that bonus. I can't speak to the value of any obviously.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

BellaJames said:


> I don't know how much I can post on here before the mods start editing my comment.
> 
> I just want to show proof that the webinar I watched introduced a program at the end which costs $3000 a month. It is a 6 month program. It is limited to 20 authors at a time and it seems hands on but $3000 a month sounds shocking to me. How many new authors make that much in their first month or 6 months?
> 
> ...


*Cringe*

I'm sorry, but not wanting to pay $10,000+ on a "proven" (there is no guarantee on anything, so while something works for one or ten or a hundred people, proven or not, it's potentially not right for me) doesn't mean I'm only interested in doing things as cheaply as possible.

What an insulting first question. Ugh.

General caution for everyone: Before you get involved in a project with anyone, whether a group of people or just one, remember, they reflect on you (and vice versa). You are who you associate with, at least in the eyes of some.


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## Lori Devoti (Oct 26, 2010)

HopelessFanatic said:


> What an insulting first question. Ugh.


This.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

BellaJames said:


> I've received an email to say the pre-order has been cancelled by the publisher
> 
> I listened to the webinar from Daniel Hall and Amy Collins. Not impressed. Especially not impressed by the expensive program being sold towards the end of the webinar.
> 
> $3000 a month.


I hope they are not teaching how to sell well on Amazon. I did a search on Amazon (with both of their names together since they are fairly common names) and the books that I saw all rank over 400,000 +.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

JWright said:


> I hope they are not teaching how to sell well on Amazon. I did a search on Amazon (with both of their names together since they are fairly common names) and the books that I saw all rank over 400,000 +.


I think she is saying she coaches authors to success, so the shocking price of her program is worth it. It's not based on her rankings.

Most of these authors seem to be coaches and marketers, I'm not seeing bestselling authors here. Unless some write under a pen name.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

BellaJames said:


> I think she is saying she coaches authors to success, so the shocking price of her program is worth it. It's not based on her rankings.
> 
> Most of these authors seem to be coaches and marketers, I'm not seeing bestselling authors here. Unless some write under a pen name.


Okay, thanks. It is great to have someone in the discussion with access to the actual material.

I would only be interested in courses from someone who had proven success in what I was trying to achieve and who shows the utmost of integrity like Mark Dawson, and he doesn't charge anywhere near what they do.

I have never heard of any successful authors investing $10,000 in a proven book marketing strategy. Maybe in editors, covers, and direct advertising costs over time, but not for a marketing strategy.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

A lot of these types of coaching and high end stuff focuses on non-fiction, using non-fiction authors as examples. 

Which, cool. Do that. But when it then is targeted toward fiction authors, which is vastly different when it comes to marketing, it's not so cool. There was an AMS service that was highly recommended by a few bigger authors. They wrote non-fiction. Well, a lot of people tried them (they weren't super expensive or anything, but still). Scores of stories about the ineffectiveness. Some blamed it on the fact that they took in way too many clients than they could handle. I personally though that they just didn't know how to handle fiction. While they claimed they did, all the success stories were from non-fiction authors. 

Since there are less non-fiction authors (typically) than fiction, I can see why they would broaden their market. But their methods aren't proven anymore....


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> If you and the other authors are such experts in the field, you should not need to get any help to "co-create" anything. You should already know what tactics are in violation of Amazon's TOS, CAN-SPAM, and all applicable laws pertinent to what you are doing.


Seriously.

Just to be clear: Know who you're doing business with. Know the general costs of things before you invest a dime. Know the TOS of any and every site you plan to upload books. Don't depend on someone else to tell you what they are.

Anyone who has $3000 to throw around could get a helluva editor, cover designer and formatter, and have money left over for a Bookbub. But, these things aren't aimed at folks like us, who know what we know and what we don't know, but at people with stars in their eyes and not a clue about how writing and publishing really works (Hint: the majority don't make more than pocket change.)


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

JWright said:


> I hope they are not teaching how to sell well on Amazon. I did a search on Amazon (with both of their names together since they are fairly common names) and the books that I saw all rank over 400,000 +.


I did as well. None of these books indicate that they can actually do what they're claiming they can teach.

I get that they're marketers and not authors of fiction. But if I'm being asked to spend $3,000 a month on a course for six months (I think that's how long someone said it lasted), you'd better have some proof to back up why your course is worth the cost of a semester (or year) of attending an accredited university. I took Mark Dawson's Facebook course because he had the record to prove he was worth that investment of money, and even then I had to think long and hard before deciding to spend the money on it, and it wasn't close to being as expensive as this course.

_Edited, pursuant to this. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Perry Constantine said:


> I did as well. None of these books indicate that they can actually do what they're claiming they can teach.
> 
> I get that they're marketers and not authors of fiction. But if I'm being asked to spend $3,000 a month on a course for six months (I think that's how long someone said it lasted), you'd better have some proof to back up why your course is worth the cost of a semester (or year) of attending an accredited university. I took Mark Dawson's Facebook course because he had the record to prove he was worth that investment of money, and even then I had to think long and hard before deciding to spend the money on it, and it wasn't close to being as expensive as this course.
> 
> _Edited, pursuant to this. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


Yes, exactly Perry and the things you point out were also things I noticed in addition to the rankings. I am looking forward to taking Mark Dawson's advertising course though! He is the real deal.


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## Hope (Nov 28, 2014)

It's interesting that the two people associated with the book, who claim to be experts on selling books, claim ignorance on so many points. But they want people to pay $3000.00 for ignorance?


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Perry Constantine said:


> I did as well. None of these books indicate that they can actually do what they're claiming they can teach.
> 
> I get that they're marketers and not authors of fiction. But if I'm being asked to spend $3,000 a month on a course for six months (I think that's how long someone said it lasted), you'd better have some proof to back up why your course is worth the cost of a semester (or year) of attending an accredited university. I took Mark Dawson's Facebook course because he had the record to prove he was worth that investment of money, and even then I had to think long and hard before deciding to spend the money on it, and it wasn't close to being as expensive as this course.
> 
> _Edited, pursuant to this. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


What convinced me to buy Mark's course (way back when it was first offered) is when he told me I wasn't ready for it yet and wait. That's integrity.

I ignored his advice and got it anyway. No regrets considering I've gotten to benefit from all the updates over the years for no additional cost as well as access to the FB group.

And considering it's been a couple (few? Time flies) years, and it still has an impact on me, I recommend the course all the time. And 101. No hesitation.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

HopelessFanatic said:


> What convinced me to buy Mark's course (way back when it was first offered) is when he told me I wasn't ready for it yet and wait. That's integrity.
> 
> I ignored his advice and got it anyway. No regrets considering I've gotten to benefit from all the updates over the years for no additional cost as well as access to the FB group.
> 
> And considering it's been a couple (few? Time flies) years, and it still has an impact on me, I recommend the course all the time. And 101. No hesitation.


The course teaches different ways to do ads. It doesn't promise riches.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

BellaJames said:


> I don't know how much I can post on here before the mods start editing my comment.
> 
> I just want to show proof that the webinar I watched introduced a program at the end which costs $3000 a month. It is a 6 month program. It is limited to 20 authors at a time and it seems hands on but $3000 a month sounds shocking to me. How many new authors make that much in their first month or 6 months?
> 
> ...


I don't think it's necessary for you to take the personal risk of posting what might be proprietary material, Bella. You saw the $3,000/month price tag and are reporting it to us here in the thread -- that's all we need.

_ETA a few words, after realizing what I said here wasn't clear. - Becca_


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

People who fall for this stuff are the ones who *have* $10k because they're likely retirees and have a dream of becoming an author but don't want to do any of the work. Sadly, I know people like this. You tell them all the stuff they need to know, and then they turn around and go to a vanity press.

What's the bet that part of the $10k is an assertion that you need to spend yet more money (in ads) before you can be successful. 

While these sorts of schemes may be acceptable in the corporate world (because companies pay anything for anything and so you can charge anything because money means nothing to big corporations), they're asking this of private people. Frankly, it's disgusting.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Posts that ignored my thread-reopening guidelines have been edited or removed.

We're pretty solidly in piling-on territory, here. Please stop so that the thread can remain open. If it does, Megan's and Phoenix's focused questions to DerekD may get answered.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Becca Mills said:


> I don't think it's necessary for you to take the personal risk of posting what might be proprietary material, Bella. You saw the $3,000/month price tag and are reporting it -- that's all we need.


Ok thanks for letting me know. I have not reported that program. I have just reported the book and the fact that the bonuses are not free after purchasing the book. You have to give your email address to 23 or more marketers/authors to recieve the bonus material.

_Oops, sorry to be unclear! I meant you're reporting it to us here in the thread, and we'll take your word for it.  - Becca_


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

JWright said:


> I would only be interested in courses from someone who had proven success in what I was trying to achieve and who shows the utmost of integrity like Mark Dawson, and he doesn't charge anywhere near what they do.


If they were hugely successful authors, why would they need to bother selling courses when they could be writing and selling more books?


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## badtothebone (Mar 31, 2011)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If they were hugely successful authors, why would they need to bother selling courses when they could be writing and selling more books?


I mean Mark sells courses. He's reasonably successful, but I'd hazard he makes as much or more from upselling his knowledge to the author community as he does from fiction. I don't think that's a bad thing.

And as DerekD says $3k/mo would be fine if it taught you how to get an ongoing revenue stream of $30k/mo. That said, it most probably won't, and in this case seems to be an unscrupulous hustle.


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## JWright (Apr 10, 2018)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson said:


> If they were hugely successful authors, why would they need to bother selling courses when they could be writing and selling more books?


It's true most really high selling fiction writers don't develop full-fledged courses but Mark Dawson is an exception. I am in his general Facebook group (not the ones tied to his courses) and he has been sharing his sales figures every month. So far he is on track to go over $1 million in sales. That is on his fiction. I have no idea what he makes on his courses. He definitely doesn't need to. I think he enjoys teaching and it diversifies his income but that's just my guess.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2018)

FYI: $3,000 a month will cover tuition at many state colleges and pretty much all community colleges. If you have that kind of money, invest in a business degree. Or accounting degree. Something actually useful to being a business owner. 

Actually, I strongly encourage all authors to at least take a few continuing education courses in the subjects of accounting and business law. Most community colleges offer one-off classes that only run a couple of weeks. Heck, you have accredited online services like Fred Pryor seminars that have unlimited online learning and in-person seminars for $499 a year.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

badtothebone said:


> I mean Mark sells courses. He's reasonably successful, but I'd hazard he makes as much or more from upselling his knowledge to the author community as he does from fiction. I don't think that's a bad thing.
> 
> And as DerekD says $3k/mo would be fine if it taught you how to get an ongoing revenue stream of $30k/mo. That said, it most probably won't, and in this case seems to be an unscrupulous hustle.


I don't want to derail the thread, but people have said this before, and it isn't true.

Mark makes high five figures (six figures lately) a month on his fiction. He is one of the top selling authors in this business. He continues to walk the walk he teaches. The course itself is only open a couple of times a year, and while it probably does bring in quite a bit of cash each time (it's a highly recommended course), it's only a fraction of his income.

I think this is important to point out. I giggled at reasonably successful. That's like saying Hugh Howey did pretty good for himself lol

He makes no guarantees. Doesn't make grand claims. And while it can be the norm in these types of courses, updates to the course are free. He could create new courses, but doesn't.

When I joined, it was all FB ads. It has expanded to cover other cpc ad types, often taught by other authors successful in those (which means he likely pays them for this). There are also modules on ad copy and images. (Again taught by other people).

Since joining, the information has at the very least doubled, and I would venture to say tripled.

There are other expenses associated with the course itself, including keeping the infrastructure updated and paying people to handle admin and customer service duties, which is a constant thing.

How much ends up in his pocket is probably far less than one would think. I'm pretty sure that is true for other courses like this, too.

I've taken other courses from indies that were quite helpful (and while they did cost a few hundred dollars, it wasn't some of the prices being quoted here. And I'd heard about them and knew who they were beforehand.)

But really Mark is in a realm of his own.


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## Mark Dawson (Mar 24, 2012)

HopelessFanatic said:


> But really Mark is in a realm of his own.


Thank you, mum.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

DerekD said:


> Speaking simply to the big picture of being asked to invest $3,000 a month without commenting on a particular offer I'm unfamiliar with, there is nothing inherent in that that strikes me as being good/bad, right/wrong.


I'm sorry for being rude to whomever is offering that "investment" opportunity, but there is no way to say this without being rude. Hopefully the mods will be kind with the cattle prod.

*Whatever it entails, whoever is delivering the content/value/whatever, it's not worth $3000.*

I wouldn't pay myself (small-potatoes course on mailing lists), David Gaughran (who is a marketing whiz), Chris Fox (who has very reasonable consulting rates), Mark Dawson (everyone knows what Mark bring to the table), or Nora Roberts herself $3000 a month to teach me anything. I'm *definitely* not going to pay that to someone I've never even heard of.

Most of the "experts" there are unknown to me, though I've been working at just about every job there is in this space for years now, and count among my close friends some of the smartest and biggest-earning indie publishers working today. That alone is a red flag for me. You don't get to be an "expert" when no one even knows who you are. (General you, not you you.)

I appreciate you coming here to talk about things, and you've kept a cool head when people have been throwing insults, which is admirable. But let's be honest, one service provider to another: this is lead gen disguised as delivering 10X value. And most of us have been around long enough to see through that.


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## lilywhite (Sep 25, 2010)

BellaJames said:


> Most of these authors seem to be coaches and marketers, I'm not seeing bestselling authors here. Unless some write under a pen name.


It is definitely possible to have solid, actionable, teachable information that can help folks succeed, and either not have reached that success yourself for some reason, or to be writing under a pen name. (One of my pen names, which I reveal to my newsletter students so they can see what forms I use and my automations and so on, had a release in January. Bless their hearts, I told them not to buy the book, a paranormal chick lit sort of book in the vein of Kristen Painter. Yet my first Also Bought for weeks was David Gaughran's re-release of Let's Get Digital. *sigh*)


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

My local community college offers all sorts of business classes, many of them are free or very low cost. You won't find them in the regular curriculum, but under the Continuing Education banner. They are very helpful courses, though none of them cover publishing per se, they are good for general business stuff.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

lilywhite said:


> It is definitely possible to have solid, actionable, teachable information that can help folks succeed, and either not have reached that success yourself for some reason, or to be writing under a pen name. (One of my pen names, which I reveal to my newsletter students so they can see what forms I use and my automations and so on, had a release in January. Bless their hearts, I told them not to buy the book, a paranormal chick lit sort of book in the vein of Kristen Painter. Yet my first Also Bought for weeks was David Gaughran's re-release of Let's Get Digital. *sigh*)


I understand that some authors/writers could teach a person how to basically write a book, how to market that book, how to promote that book, how to make a nice cover, write a blurb etc. However, I would never ever pay someone $3000 a month or $3000 for the entire course/program without seeing some serious credientials and proof that they could help me at least make that money back within a few weeks. 
No author or writing coach can guarantee that I am going to be a bestselling author and make xxx amount of money because I complete their course.

Some of the authors involved in this book do not seem to be very successful at selling their own books based on their visible rankings. Now some might write under a pen name and be very successful. Some might have helped other authors achieve some success.

There was an author mentioned in that webinar I watched. They were coached by Amy. I looked at their rankings and reviews and it shows an author who is selling very few books and has only got reviews on one book, which was featured in a popular magazine.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

If you're going to teach me how to sell fiction, you better be able to sell fiction if you want my money. If you have a pen name that follows your tactics and is successful, I'm going to need to know that name so I can check for myself. Nonfiction isn't the same thing, different market, different skills. I'm not going to pay money for something ($3k a month for six months is $18K!) I can simply get from authors here for free, or from any of the myriad books already out there for under $10. I don't think Mark Dawson's course is terribly expensive, and at least he's shown he can sell his own books.

I believe there are some things you can teach others without having the experience of doing it yourself, but I'm drawing a blank on what any of those things are. I mean, I wouldn't want a janitor teaching me how to be a brain surgeon, I don't care how many times s/he has mopped up the operating room and found the random scalpel.


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## Jan Hurst-Nicholson (Aug 25, 2010)

lilywhite said:


> It is definitely possible to have solid, actionable, teachable information that can help folks succeed, and either not have reached that success yourself for some reason, or to be writing under a pen name.


This is very true. Sports coaches have not necessarily been winning athletes.

The opposite is also true. Just because you are successful at something doesn't mean you are automatically good at teaching it. I've read educational books by successful people that are mostly waffle.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

lilywhite said:


> It is definitely possible to have solid, actionable, teachable information that can help folks succeed, and either not have reached that success yourself for some reason, or to be writing under a pen name.


I agree. And there is something to say about fiction writers not being the best at marketing and marketers not being able to write good fiction.

But even then, there are usually examples of clients who they have directly worked with. Those are the references I'd want to see for myself. And if they have a pen-name, they can reveal it without saying it's them. Just as a 'an author I worked for'.

But how many people take the time to do that much investigation?


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## Lori Devoti (Oct 26, 2010)

In case anyone is still watching this... the book is back. I'm sorry... I can't get past the title... But, hey, they are back at #1 in three categories...


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

If I was going to pay anyone for the "super secret sauce", it would be AnnieB, and Amanda Lee, and a few others. But as Annie said, the info is out there, for free. Take some time and effort to find it, but it's there. The people I want to learn from are those who are selling their fiction, not some "expert" like the ones connected to this book.

And if the book is back, then newbs better know what they're getting. It's going to be on them now, because the information is out there.


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