# Kindle Publishing vs. Self Publishing vs. "Real" Publishing



## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

My panel proposal for this topic has been accepted at the country's largest gathering of creative writers, the AWP Convention, which will be held in Denver in April. The Associated Writers and Writing Programs (AWP)includes individual writers and most graduate and undergraduate creative writing programs in the country. Alternate forms of publishing have never been a topic of conversation officially at the convention before, best I can tell, so I'm excited to bring to writers possible new paths to publication. I'm interested in the pros and cons of each method.

Because I brought to Kindle only just this week my two short story collections, "The Middle-Aged Man and the Sea" and "Months and Seasons," I didn't realize what a vibrant community Kindle users are until now. I've been on Kindleboards (according to the upper right of my screen) just over three hours total over the last few days, and I've learned that some people's books are ONLY on Kindle, such as Eric Christopher's "Crack-Up," which received a great review by RedAdept recently. It's shooting up in sales.

As for this thread, I want to bring what I learn here not only to the convention, but also, perhaps, to my blogs at Red Room (where I wrote about Kindle already at http://www.redroom.com/blog/christopher-meeks/kindle-the-emerging-elephant-room) and at Backwordbooks.com, which is a consortium of independent authors. I'm curious to hear from authors and readers here about independent books, the kind you're not likely to find at bookstores. If you're an author, are you having success with Kindle readers? Or, perhaps, are you finding the competition fierce and it's easy to get lost? Are the reviewers fair? Is Kindle helping your writing career in any way?

If you're a reader, do you seek independent books out, or do you stumble upon them only occassionally based on reviews? How is the Book Klub, and how are books selected for the Book Klub? Do independently published Kindle books sometimes appear as poorly written and edited as many are for print-on-demand (POD) publishing through iUniverse, Lulu Books, and the like?

The world of publishing is changing, and I'm fascinated how Kindle is making a difference. I may make my next book for Kindle first, weeks or months before it's officially published in print.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Leslie (Apr 7, 2008)

Hi Chris,

Great topic and congrats on being accepted for the panel! I presented two weeks ago at the International Academy of Nursing Editors annual meeting on "Innovations in Content Delivery" and probably touched on some of the things you'll be covering. 

You have lots of good questions. I'll just answer one right now (probably more, later, as the discussion gets going). As a reader, I really enjoy being able to easily find, buy, and read more "obscure" books -- books that aren't usually sold in Borders or B&N. I love being able to read a buy a book and start reading it one minute later and not having to deal with ordering, shipping, etc. 

Re: independently published books...yes, I've stumbled upon a few clunkers, but that's why samples are great. If a book is not up to my standards in terms of writing, punctuation, grammar and so on, it's very easy to find that out in a sample and just not buy the book.

L


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Leslie, after I read your post, I was reminded of a wonderful independent book I used in my English class last year called "Ransom Seaborn", written by the folk musician Bill Deasy. I went just now to Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Ransom-Seaborn-Bill-Deasy/dp/1905605080) to see if it's in a Kindle version, and it's not. It reminded me how more people need to discover the Kindle market. Your description of how you find obscure books on Kindle is great. In fact, sample my two books and see if they pass your test.

Best,
Christopher Meeks


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

Chrismeeks said:


> Do independently published Kindle books sometimes as poorly written and edited here as many are for print-on-demand (POD) publishing through iUniverse, Lulu Books, and the like?
> 
> --Christopher Meeks


The difference between an "independent author" and a "self-publisher" is in perspective, not technology. There are some brilliant independent authors who, regardless of whether or not they use the Kindle or POD, will produce exceptional work. And there are those that have no business killing a tree. The Kindle is NO DIFFERENT from a POD service, except there isn't a print book. But the actual process from concept to publication is the same.

An independent author will take the time to get constructive feedback on his or her work. They will put in the effort to make sure their books look professional. They will invest and get help with those things they can't do themselves. In short, they will act like business people. Whereas the self publisher uploads a document that may or may not have gone through a spell checker and considered himself a published author.


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## RLG (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't know what goes through "non-contract" authors minds when they choose how to publish but I know as a reader I do actively seek out that type of author.  While you run the risk of the work's quality not having been run through formal editing processes, I find the these authors often are more willing to take risks, don't cater to the lowest common denominator and their imagination can be amazing compared to so many established authors who have found their "formula".  Don't get me wrong - the average "real" published book is usually clearly better but there are enough real gems among the "self" or "kindle" published books that it's well worth the time to ferret them out.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

From an author's viewpoint:  

The Kindle version of my novel outsells the print version by so large a ratio that I've lost track. I think there are a few reasons for this. 
1. The cost (obviously).
2. Kindle owners are simply voracious readers. Anyone who is not only willing, but happy, to spend between $200-400 on a reading device would have to be.
3. They're also willing to take risks (in the good way lol) in general, for a similar reason as #2. Anyone willing to be among the first to invest their in that kind of technology is usually more willing to take a chance on an unknown indie author.
4. This community. I've read comments from members here to the effect that they've taken a chance on an indie book because it was recommended by someone they trust here. That's even been the case for me personally. (Although I don't own a Kindle, I've been pointed to books that are available in other formats as well, usually via Smashwords.)


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## Geoffrey (Jun 20, 2009)

I am in complete agreement with rjkeller's statements from a reader's perspective.  I am a pretty voracious reader so I seek out new and interesting things - and if the cost is low as well as the book is interesting, I will download it.  I will read something based solely on recommendations from certain people here and elsewhere simply because I respect their taste ....

As for taking a risk, I will try many different things and I like a wide variety.  I will not, however, be easily entertained.  I don't give a pass on style and  comment just because an author is not traditionally published and/or an unknown.  (for that matter, they don't get a pass or being famous either)  

I want a well written story that may be creative, that will evoke a set of emotions and that will paint images of a world I want to hang out in for awhile without being cluttered with simple spelling errors.  I'm actually delighted that a new world of independent authors has opened up for me once I got my kindle.  I've felt for years that the major publishing houses and the big box book stores make access to some authors more convenient but stifle innovation when either an author is unknown or they do not write to an established formula.


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## Greg Banks (May 2, 2009)

I wish you hadn't used the term "real" instead of traditional, even though you did use quotation marks around it. My books are published in just as "real" a fashion as any other authors, no matter the manner in which they were published.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

The comments coming in are interesting and give me more perspective--thanks. 

Greg, I'm glad you noted the quotation marks around "real" because getting one's book out in any form, if readers follow, is certainly real. You're right, "traditional" is a better term, but I've heard people who disdain independent publishing as "not real." William Woodall, over on a companion thread in Book Bazaar, was pointing out that his stories don't fit classification well, and the one thing I've been learning about traditional publishers is that to market well, a book needs to fit into a genre. My agent has been getting long and personal rejections, for instance, on my comic novel manuscript for "The Laughter and Sadness of Sex," and the big reason editors have been passing on it is because, as one publisher wrote, "It's a 'tween. It falls between genres and it's difficult to market. We love his style, but we're not sure if it'll sell."

The fact that a few authors are coming to Kindle first before, or in lieu of, having a print version is something I would have never expected or considered. R.J. Keller's notion that "Kindle owners are simply voracious readers; anyone who is not only willing, but happy, to spend between $200-400 on a reading device would have to be" makes sense. 

Personally, I'm impressed, too, on how many people have been willing to not only buy my two collections of short fiction on Kindle (up only 9 days), but also how many are tagging it. This is clearly an involved community, and I wonder if Amazon ever envisioned this? I know they were hoping to sell books, but Kindle readers are clearly different, well-read people.

My daughter is about to turn eleven, and she's adept at computers, Nintendos, video games of all sort, but reading comes to her reluctantly--perhaps because of all these other devices. I'm wondering if anyone reading this has children who have taken to the Kindle. 

--Christopher Meeks


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I have written a book on this subject, if anyone wants it (five stars n Amazon). 110 pages in print, but send me an email and it's yours for free in kindle format. [email protected]

Edward C. Patterson

PS:


Spoiler



It's called Are You Still Submittig Your Work to a Traditional Publisher?


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## tommy jonq (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm the only university-trained "literary" writer I know who is seriously publishing his own books, at least so far. In addition to Amazon/Createspace and Kindle, I'll also be selling at least one novel, Gemini Tiger, through regular wholesale distribution channels and other ebook platforms. I have experience in old-fashioned tree-killing publishing, and with breakthroughs in POD, I can now do this affordably. And vainly. Of course, I have to do all the things any other publisher does—get reviews from people book buyers care about, create and send out publicity packets, schedule book signings. Etc. 

None of which will score any points on job applications to TEACH Creative Writing. Colleges and universities are conservative institutions, and even if I sold a million books on my own, that's not the same thing in their eyes as getting an "A" from Random House. So I'm planning to go the old tried-and-true route for one of my novels, just to get that particular ticket punched.

But the BUSINESS is changing, fast. Even if Prentice Hall called tomorrow and wanted to get into the Gemini Tiger business with me, I'd have to look over that contract long and hard. Corporations have needs, and no one understands that better than I do, but over the course of the next ten, twenty years, the life a book will be very different that the life of a book "published" twenty or even ten years ago. And media behemoths like Time Warner and CBS, who own imprints like Avon and Simon and Schuster, are just a slow to adapt to the digital marketplace for books as they were to adapt to digital music. And the day is coming (I think it's already here; see Boyd Morrison) when every new author is going to have to launch her own career before a corporate sponsor will get involved, anyway. 

As Adam said to Eve, "We are living, my dear, in a time of great transition." And I intend to be very, very careful what my "publishing" career looks like at the end of this transition.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Tommy, I teach creative writing at the university level, and I find my colleagues are quite supportive of my published books. Some of them even give me quotes for my books. The fact is, many English departments want to see their faculty published, but they don't question, generally, the name of the publishing company. Thus, if you create your own company, say, Eucalyptus Leaf Press, people will assume it's a small publisher. Many people are published by small publishers, and it's alright. You're doing exactly what small publishers do: send out advance reading copies for reviews (I hope three months in advance of publication), set up signings, and more. 

I've heard a couple of big agents on panels each mention the word "platform," as in, "We particularly seek writers who have platforms." That means they want writers who have fans already. That's hard if you're a new writer. Yet it seems to me, Kindle readers are a silent yet vocal community. I know that's an oxymoron, but this is to to say while Kindle may not reflect on a lot of publicity radar, Kindle readers certainly shout out about the books they love. 

Best I can see, you're doing everything right.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

My event description for the AWP event in Denver in April goes, "Last year's panel on 'Shameless Promotion' brought audience questions on marketing self-published books. It's clear more authors are turning to self-publication. Is it a viable option? It's estimated that 100,000 new titles arrive each year via self-publication, added to 200,000 printed traditionally. Editor-in-chief Pat Walsh of MacAdam/Cage Books has said, 'Self-publishing will not bring you literary success. Books are still and brick-and-mortar industry.' What options does today's writer have?"

Since I discovered Kindleboards a few weeks ago, I've learned Kindle itself is a good market. I'm still interested in hearing publishing stories, good or bad, self-publishing/independent publishing or traditional. Any tips for marketing by any author?

--Christopher Meeks


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## Rasputina (May 6, 2009)

I've bought self published works before, but they have been on specialized topics that weren't readily available in traditional print media. I prefer university press published works.


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

I believe the Kindle format is ideal for independent authors because of the ease that readers have with it.  I can go to a board like this one and find all sorts of great authors that I never heard of before, and I can quickly and easily download their books with little to no time or money commitment beyond that of the low price of the book and the time to read it.  I absolutely LOVED RJ’s book, but quite honestly if she was a small independent author with only print version available, I probably would have A. never heard of it, because I am not on any independent author print version boards or B. never taken the time to either buy the book online (at a higher cost), paid for shipping and waited a week for it to arrive, or driven down to the local bookstore to see if they even had it in stock spending money on gas and again a higher price for the book. Which is too bad, because I would have missed out on a great book, but that’s the reality of it.  She offered up the book for free, I downloaded it, willing to give it a try because I had no other time or money investment involved, and once I read it and loved it, I purchased a nicely formatted Kindle version to help support her, and on top of that if she puts out another book and prices it higher, I will buy that no questions asked.  So in short, if she hadn’t been on Kindle, she would have had a much harder sell on gaining me as a reader.

I strongly believe that the success of the Kindle is the ease that it provides.  Let’s take another example.  Recently there was an article where a publisher stated that after giving out free Kindle copies of a first in the series books, sales for the other books went up 1000%.  Obviously giving away digital copies has very little cost associated with it, it’s certainly not really free for the publisher to do it, but imagine the cost associated with giving away paperback books for free.  But what if a publisher did give away free paperbacks?  They have a book signing and give away 10,000 free books to that local audience.  Do you honestly think sales would jump 1000% from that?  Probably not.  Because again, people would need to invest a higher book cost, drive time or wait time for shipping in order to read the next books.  So yes maybe in a year or two you would see an increase, but certainly not as quickly as the Kindle did.  Kindle readers read the first book, and when finished immediately download the second to continue on with the story. With paperback, you have to wait until the reader has time to pick up your next book before you see the sale.

When looking at the eBook community, publishers need to realize that it’s easy for readers to purchase their books.  You know what I would love to see in a book series?  How about on the last page of the book, you give me a link that takes me to the page to purchase the next book in the series?  That I would love.  Or even if it’s not a series, how about linking to other books by that author so I can quickly purchase those?  Can a publisher do this with a paperback?  No.  With a Kindle, there are many things that publishers can do like this to help increase sales in a non-obtrusive way.  Instead they are only focusing on the people that pirate their stuff, or looking at ways to make money from other ways besides actual selling of books (ads in books etc…).  How about focusing on one thing, your reader and making it easier for them to find your books and read them.

Rachel


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Rachel--

You make many great points, and I'm likely to quote you at the convention. Thanks.

An author can't live on Kindle sales alone, however. It's a great ancillary market, such as DVDs are for movie studios. I brought out my first book, _The Middle-Aged Man and the Sea_, after I was frustrated with my first agent, who would not even send out the manuscript for the book because they were short stories. The agent happened to love my short stories, already published in literary magazines, but he said, "Who reads short stories? The big publishers only publish short story collections as a favor to their top-selling authors, and they still don't sell like a novel. Write a novel."

I eventually wrote a novel, _The Brightest Moon of the Century_, and in the meantime I used Lulu Press to bring out _The Middle-Aged Man and the Sea_. The big thing I learned with that--even after it received great reviews in the _Los Angeles Times_ and elsewhere, including a mention in _Entertainment Weekly_--is that an author cannot live off of internet sales alone, either. Internet sales are only 21% of all book sales. That means that nearly 80% of sales are in brick-and-mortar locations such as bookstores and Target. (That figure probably does not include Kindle.) The point, though, is that POD companies like Lulu can't get books into stores, and most people still get their books in stores.

There's nothing I can disagree with you about how convenient the Kindle is and encourages people like you to try new things. RJ Keller, by the way, happens to be part of a small independent book consortium I'm in called Backword Books, which was established to get top independent literary books into the limelight. You can see what other books you might like at www.backwordbooks.com. I picture Ms. Keller doing well enough independently to finally get a big publisher to take her on. Even when her books are in stores, I know she'll be here on Kindleboards. Maybe she should look for an agent if she doesn't have one.

One thing I don't understand, and maybe someone else has insight on: I see there's a popular thread here on Kindleboards about the book _The Time Traveler's Wife_ by Audrey Niggenegger. _The Time Traveler's Wife_ is not available for the Kindle, nor are the Harry Potter books. Why? I'd heard a rumor that J.K. Rowling thought her books if made for Kindle could be more easily pirated, but it's in a format only the Kindle can use. In the meantime, people have typed up her books and offered them for free on the Internet--not stopping pirating.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

Christopher—

While I agree with a lot of what you said there, I DO NOT see Kindle books (or any e-books) as an ancillary market like DVDs are to movies.  Movie people make their real money off of having movies in a theater.  I will pay $11 for a movie ticket because I can watch the movie on a huge screen in a darkened room, an experience that I cannot recreate for myself at home with a DVD.  How is buying a paperback book creating an experience for me that I can’t recreate with my Kindle?  Would I pay more for hand cramps from holding the book and annoying page turns that prevent me from really snuggling down in my bed while reading?  Nope.  I think the problem with the publishing industry (and this kind of answers your question about why authors don’t put their books on Kindle) is that they think the same way you do.  They view e-books as an ancillary market, and that you’re not really going to make any money there.  Again I would point out that one author was able to increase sales by 1000% for one of their books on Kindle.  Just an ancillary market?  No money to be made there?  

E-books have the potential to make just as much, if not more, than a paperback book.  Maybe not for the JK Rowlings or Stephen Kings of the world, but really this is only a matter of the number of people that own an e-reader and the fact that e-books have really only come into more popularity in recent years.  Once they have been around as long as paperback, I would venture to guess that they will far outpace paperback sales for all authors, big or small.  Any publisher that can see that future now, will do well in the years to come.  It was the monks that refused to accept the printing press as the wave of the future that were very quickly put out of the book copying business.

As far as the smaller non-JK Rowling or Stephen King types, I would say that many authors, some on this very board, have made much, much more off of their e-book sales than they have off their paperback sales.  Not everyone can be a big name author, and I truly feel that e-books allow smaller authors that probably would never have gotten picked up by big publishers anyway, the opportunity to make some real money off of their writings.

Rachel


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree Rachel, except in one point, Stephen King is a big propoent of eBooks and the Kindle and can be considered a pioneer in the area. Now he comes from a branded background, so we cannot use him as a model, but he sees and has stated the potential and favrable future for the media.

Ed Patterson


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Rachel--

I love your passion, and I don't know enough about Kindle sales to know the kinds of figures we're talking about. Don't take "ancillary" too negatively because filmmakers now _need_ DVD sales to show a profit. The same may be true of, say, Michael Connelly's mysteries, which I love. (Have you read his new _The Brass Verdict_?) Maybe publishers are counting on Kindle sales to pay for part of the marketing.

The only figures I have for independent publishers are from Edward Patterson and RJ Keller. Patterson says he's sold nearly 2000 copies in eighteen months. If his books are priced at an average of $1.99, that means he makes 66-cents per sale times 110 books a month. That equals $73 per month, which might, if he's lucky, pay gas for his car each month. Keller has sold up to 300 books a month on Kindle, but "Waiting for Spring" is priced at 99 cents, meaning she makes 33 cents per book or up to $99 a month.

Mr. Patterson says he's publishing on Kindle because his books find new readers and it doesn't cost him anything. That's perfectly admirable. I'm looking for new readers, too. I've supported myself as a professional writer for over twenty years, but the marketplace is changing, and I'm doing my best to understand it. The writers and artists you love need support.

At the extreme other end is J.K. Rowling whose last book _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows_ sold 8.3 million copies in 24 hours. At that time, there were 133.5 million copies of the Potter books in print in the USA. Let's say she gets a conservative 10% of the list price per book (and it's probably closer to double that), which would mean she made $3.49 per book. Multiply that by 8.3 million, and she made $29 million in 24 hours--probably more. Kindle isn't even ancillary for her. The publishers apparently don't even think of it.

Most novelists are "mid-list," meaning they receive great reviews and sales one can sort of live on. To get there requires a lot of book touring. You might meet these writers at your local bookstore. In fact, if you look at the names of whatever visiting writers come to your local bookstore, my guess is you haven't heard of most of them. Gina Nahai is one such writer. Her wonderful, amazing story of an Iranian family in the tenuous decade before the Islamic revolution, Caspian Rain is $12.49 for Kindle because--I'm guessing--the publisher needs to cover costs. Kindle isn't the place where a writer gets rich, but it may be a place where a writer first gets a following.

Clearly, reading on the Kindle is preferable for many people over a paperback, as you point out, and as the Kindle becomes less expensive, perhaps it'll be a market as powerful as DVDs are for filmmakers.

I hope I'm not making you mad, Rachel, with my answers, because I appreciate your perspective a great deal.

--Christopher Meeks


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Just to weigh in here...

WFS is priced at .99 because I'm a new author with no pedigree (ie, no media/teaching experience, no degree, etc) and I realize that I'm a risk. Personally (and I hope this doesn't sound egotistical, egocentric, or ego-anything-else) I think it's worth more than that, but I'm smart enough to know that an unknown, DIY author can't expect to ask it. How my next book does, sales-wise, might be a more apt study case. 

Right now I'm flying by pure instinct, not by any sort of proven marketing plan, and having more fun than is legal in several states.


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

Christopher—

Not mad at all.  I always enjoy a lively conversation, I think it helps all of us see things in a new way.  Like I said I agree with almost everything you have said here.  The only issue I have is that you can’t expect that every author, even if they get a book deal, will EVER sell as much as JK Rowling.  I should think that even other very well known authors don’t sell as much as her on their release day of a new book, and I would suspect even further that if she wrote a non-HP book, she would not sell that much either.  That seemed to have been a perfect-storm situation for her.  So yes maybe RJ and Ed are only selling about $100 per month worth of profit in books per month, and maybe that’s not much to live on, but really besides the big names, what author does make enough to live on when writing solely books?  

I am curious, if you wouldn’t mind sharing, you obviously have an agent and a published book, how much do you make in profits from that book each month?  How much have you made since you put your book on Kindle?  I am not asking this to be ornery, I truly would like to know.  It sounds like you have done really well with your book, and it would be interesting to add to the conversation the difference between a published smaller name book, and a Kindlized smaller name book.  (I am assuming you are a smaller name since I have not heard of you before, I apologize if this is not the case. LOL)

Oh and another bonus for Kindle or e-books just to add to your thoughts for uses of these for authors, is there is no need for the book to go out of print.  So in 20 years, it’s just as easy to sell a copy as it was today.  No worries about publishing companies not wanting to print 1000 copies to sell 5 books type of thing.  So your ROI could potentially be spread out much farther if you choose to do so.

Rachel


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> Just to weigh in here...
> 
> WFS is priced at .99 because I'm a new author with no pedigree (ie, no media/teaching experience, no degree, etc) and I realize that I'm a risk. Personally (and I hope this doesn't sound egotistical, egocentric, or ego-anything-else) I think it's worth more than that, but I'm smart enough to know that an unknown, DIY author can't expect to ask it. How my next book does, sales-wise, might be a more apt study case.
> 
> Right now I'm flying by pure instinct, not by any sort of proven marketing plan, and having more fun than is legal in several states.


RJ-

I think your book is worth much more as well, but I think your marketing strategy is a smart one. I think there are many authors that are printed only in paperback that would kill to have 300 sales a month. It is my hope that you do get picked up by a big publishing firm and sell a million copies on release day and that you get a big movie deal, and then you have a special "Kindleboard members that supported me" day on the set and let us all come out to play small bit parts like all the extras in the bar &#8230;&#8230;    Or at least have a concert for your book as suggested on another thread &#8230;. (Now you'll have to go hunt that one down to see my comment there!! Love ya!!!)

Like I said before I would buy your next book at $6 or so if you priced it there, so for me at least, your marketing strategy worked.

Rachel


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Chris:

You're making a few assumptions. 1 - That all my books are on the Kindle for 1.99. Actually, they are in various media, some on the Kindle for $ .99 and others for $ 3.99. My paperbacks go from between $ 6.50 and $ 18.00. So your attempt at trying to figure out what I make has set you up for a statistical fall. In fact, from one book alone I have made over $3,000.00 in royalties and honorariums. Plus, many books I give away for free depending on the reader's needs. So if you are trying to discuss living off the proceeds of Indie publishing, you are seeking Xanadu and I know Kublai Khan personally. Let me introduce him to you.

2 - If you want to know where the majority of my Kindle royalties go, just ask those here on Kindleboard. I donate them back to the site. I support readers, and authors, and encourage everyone who is able to validate their talent to "go for it." Hillel said, "if not now, when?" When I see a worthy book "published" by a 15 year old that is a hundred times better than my own efforts at that age, I begin to toss aside the qualification boundaries that we set up for ourselves.

3 - You must learn that it is what it is, and that analysis of trends and where the industry is going is a fine pursuit for a discussion panel, but it has small application in the real world of authors and their readers. There is really nothing to debate. When I first published on the Kindle, I was waiting for another book to be accepted via the traditional method. While I waited (I am a single-threaded submitter), I threw up (as opposed to vomit) a small novella onto the Kindle and I sold 4 copies in 3 months. Then I bumped into April Hamilton (if you're not a member of the mothership at Publetariat.com, your missing your calling) and she taught me the ropes of going into print. By the time,I received the rejection of the traditionally submitted book, I had seven works published on the Kindle and in print and readers asking for more. The rejected book, a little thing called The Jade Owl, came with a note that it was excellent, but beyond the scope of the current market for that publisher. I turned to beta-readers for a decision. They told me to "let that Bird fly." And it's still flying . . . high.

4 - Authoring and publishing is like no other business. There is money there for the connected and the lucky, but for the rest of us, it is a matter of seeding the future, sharing our souls with the universe and being responsible to our readers. I DO have a dream, and it has come true. My goal is to publish 50 books of high quality before I reach 75, which gives me only 13 years to go. And I need not look back on it. It is my life's achievement. I've lived a full life with three different and rewarding careers, each enough for one person. I thank God that he has granted me this last creative stretch, from my mind to your imagination.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RJ:

Your book is worthy of $10.00 +. I have readers who buy my books at $15.00 in print and although I offer the Are You Still.. work for free, I have readers still pay for it. Price is certainly a driver, and even a barrier, but not because you are unknown and certainly not a risk. Risk is a fall down Mount Everest. Readers musr given as much welcome as you can give them, but when they balk at a $3.99 price for a 700 page read, then you certainly must believe there is some other issue at hand. Look at me. Half of my books have gay themes, but most of my readers don;t care! And I have never been able to get into that gay reader niche, because I don;t believe readers come in different flavors. I write for a reader - one type - standard lover of books and stories. One book might offer more for one, and less for another, but whatever their tastes, I promise to engage them and at any price including FREE. Waiting for Spring is such a book, and you are the one taking the risk, lowering the price.

Ed Patterson


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

Well said Ed!  You know we love and cherish you here.  

The Kindle is simply a tool in the toolbox of “ways to get your stuff out there” for an author.  It should not be the end-all and be-all, but then neither should a publishing house.  If you want to make money doing anything, you have work damn hard at it, and if you are lucky enough to win the lottery, then woo-hoo!!  I would not say that the HP books are worth any more money then many of the small independent author books I have read on here.  She just happen to write the right book, at the right time, and have it picked up by the right publishing house, and the rest is history.  I have found that the ones who make it big are the ones who don’t follow the rules.  Every time you hear the background story of someone that made it big, it’s never “well I was told I should do A, B, and C, and I did and here I am!”  Instead it’s more like “Well I was told I should do A, B, and C, but instead I did J, F and Z and look where it got me!”  So I say, think outside the book and go Kindle!!

Rachel


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Athenagwis:

I'm blushing and you got that right about how "to get there." King's first published book was fished out of the garbage can by his wife, Tabitha (Carrie, the book not the wife). Rowling's HP was a moderate success when the American publisher wanted it and it caught ON - on fire, and well worth the fire, I might add. Paolini's book was accidentally read by an acquisition publisher on vacation in Florida after his son picked it up and was reading it in the back of the car. Analysis, schmalyis. We all have the luck when it comes to fortuitous fame. I mean, Elijah Wood has signed my book (a reader brought it to his attention) and one of my readers has taken the liberty of giving The Jade Owl to a screnwriter and is pushing it. You never know. I mean, the reason my book No irish Need Apply was chosen Book of the Month (along side A Lion Among Men and Three Cups of Tea) was through a Google search by a member of the Diversity team at Booz Allen Hamilton. And I have received emails from publishers, one who says: "I have my eye on you." Does this make me feel good. Yesseree bob! Does it make me feel lucky? Well, it's not a Random House kiddie reading in the back seat of a car in Florida, but since God is my agent, I believe that luck is a little more than just luck. Listen to me. Harry and me are The Chosen One.   Still, there's Kublai Khan, a close personal friend of mine and you all have an invitation into my Xanadu.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Dear Ed, Rachel and others here:

I'm enjoying this discussion a great deal, and I'm pleased I didn't offend you, Rachel. As for discussions on my sales on Kindle, I don't have figures yet as my books have been available for only two weeks. I'm not even clear how I discover sales, but I'm assuming (or hoping) Amazon sends me money at the end of every month. I'll let you know when I find out. Even then, I may not be the best example because my literary books are that--literary--not a lucrative market. My first agent said there's no money in short fiction, and I can't say he's wrong. He didn't even want to send my manuscript out for consideration, even though he was interested in me from my short fiction. He said, "Write a novel," which I finally did, _The Brightest Moon of the Century_, which was published earlier this year.

What we're discussing here is a much more postive version compared to a thread at www.backwordbooks.com, where RJ Keller and I are members. There, mystery writer J.A. Konrath defended what he said in print and in his blog that there's a huge difference between people who are published traditionally and others published other ways--the difference between professional and hobbyists. He writes, "Industry professionals are the gatekeepers who decide what is good enough. Thinking you can succeed while sidestepping them is delusional. Is it confident to rush into a combat zone and think you'll single-handedly win the battle without the army behind you? No, that's delusion."

I'm neither defending him nor saying he's completely wrong. He asks, "How many self-pubbed authors can you name who make a living as writers? How many self-pubbed authors have been reviewed by all the major periodicals? How many self-pubbed authors appear on the shelves of EVERY Borders and Barnes & Noble, or get their books into Wal-Mart?" He says he wrote several terrible novels until he earned the chops to entertain a large audience.

You can read what he says at http://www.backwordbooks.com/2009/07/29/response-to-bestselling-author-ja-konraths-foggy-portrait-of-the-confident-writer/#comment-80. He has many books available on Kindle such as _Cherry Bomb_ http://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Bomb/dp/B002EBDPIW

Of course, I can hear many people here saying that's arrogant, and I'll agree. I am saying, though, there are a lot of writers such as midlist mystery writer John Morgan Wilson (_Spider Season_ http://www.amazon.com/Spider-Season-Benjamin-Justice-Novels/dp/0312341482), who are finding that while they've made a living as a writer for many years, the rules are changing. His publisher is closing out his Benjamin Justice mystery series. It's as in film, where the big publishers seek the blockbuster and little else. Some of the books that fall between genres come here to Kindle.

I wrote about Wilson and others, by the way in an article entitled "New Book Marketing," which you can read here: 
http://www.backwordbooks.com/2009/08/07/new-book-marketing-a-positive-approach-for-negative-times/

I don't see people who look for books at Borders or Barnes and Noble as traitors. I see them as good people searching for a good read. I've found Barnes and Noble's Small Press Department wonderful. The chains may not have bibliophiles working at them as independent bookstores do, but it's just a distribution system--one that's not as fast or simple as the Kindle, granted.

I want to give my students who are writers some hope--that they can indeed make a living at it if they so choose. I'm trying to find a few paths for them as the publishing industry undergoes huge change.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Chris:

You will get paid at the end of the month with a 60-day trailing date. So your first deposit or check will come 60 days after your first complete month. CreateSpace pays monthly in the month earned.

BTW, I refer to B&N as the enemy (not trailor) because of the war between Amazon (my POD and distributor) and B&N, and also between the wholesale houses they own. And not that B&N owns Fictionwise, which also will not carry Indie books, there is a wall of discrimination set up by B&N. I do shop there - DVD's, Calenders, Coffee and Chocolate Chip Cookies only.   s for the readers, I am delighted that they have a wide world available to them to acquie books (and now also Chocolate Chip Cookies). You'll also note that kidle-folk refer to print copies as DTB (Dead-tree books) which is a softening of the Indie author rendition of the tradipub houses as Dead-Tree Houses. I have DTB's, but te cost is passed on to the reader and in order to keep that cost down, I get less royalties on DTBs than on Kindlebooks. You will note that all authors make less on DTB's than they do for eBooks. But print is a necessary evil - you know, book readings, signings, street corner sales (he he).

Edward C. Patterson

Edward C. Patterson


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

Christopher--

I am going to assume that your Kindle offerings may not do as well as a book either since even on Kindle, short stories don’t seem to fly off the virtual shelves.  Though it will be interesting to see, since a publishing house wouldn’t even touch them.  

My real question and curiosity was how your non-kindle book, that has been out for a year now, is selling.  Since we have numbers from a few Kindle authors that have there books exclusively there, I think it would be interesting to see how many copies a non-kindle book like yours sells each month in comparison and what your percentage profit is.

Rachel


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Rachel--

Your question assumes, I think, that I've been published by a big publisher, and I have not yet. While I have an agent (who you can see and read about in my article on marketing at http://www.backwordbooks.com/2009/08/07/new-book-marketing-a-positive-approach-for-negative-times/), I'm in the same boat as Edward Patterson and RJ Keller. My agent has two novel manuscripts that he's showing around. If I've given you the impression that I'm a bestselling author, then that's wrong. I've made the bulk of my living as a staff writer, interviewing artists of all types and writing about the arts. It was pure joy. Then my plays started getting produced, and in between big projects, I wrote short stories, which I loved to do. Those stories started getting published in respected literary journals, at which point, I looked for my first agent. When one I signed with didn't want to send my short story manuscript around (just my first novel), a friend suggested that I start my own imprint. After all, I'd worked for a publisher right out of college and became its senior editor. I saw from the inside how books are made and marketed.

So that's what I've done with White Whisker Books--so named for my black cat with one white whisker. I've made a mark in short fiction, getting many reviews from critics and blurbs from respected authors. _Months and Seasons_, my second collection, has been out a year, and I've sold probably just over a thousand at this point--about half of what my first book has done. Because my agent has two novels to market, I could see he wouldn't get to my third novel for a long time, so I used White Whisker Books and my freelance team -- editor, proofreaders, designer, and publicist -- to bring out _The Brightest Moon of the Century_. I only have a few months of sales figures at this point, but I can see it's over a thousand already. Some of the most respected small presses, such as McSweeneys out of San Francisco, only sell one to two thousand copies of a title, so that's something.

After _The Brightest Moon of the Century_ was reviewed in the _Minneapolis Star Tribune_ and I gave two readings in Minneapolis, I saw that a number of Barnes and Noble stores in Minnesota then carried the novel, and libraries in the area started stocking it. The Hennepin County Public Library, for instance, has seven copies and there's a waiting list. So my hope is that the novel will grow from word of mouth.

The big publishers typically make their decisions on what book to publish on whether they think they can sell at least 15,000 copies. To sell that many usually requires a book to be in a clear genre, which is then easier to market. My agent has been getting many wonderful rejections. I say "wonderful" because the rejections are respectful, even enthusiastic. Some of them at first seem like an acceptance, telling us how much fun the editor had in reading it, laughing at certain lines and getting caught up with my characters. Typically, though, the letter ends with, "Alas, we don't know how to market it. For that reason alone, we have to pass." This has what's led to my stronger interest in marketing and doing something about it.

Over the last decade, I've become an adjunct professor working at a couple of colleges--teaching English and creative writing at Santa Monica College, and sometimes teaching fiction to graduate students at USC and to students of all ages at UCLA Extension. Hence, much of what I've learned as a writer, even though I'm not best-selling, is being recognized. One of my plays, _Who Lives?, _ about the first kidney dialysis machine in the sixties and the committee of laypeople that had to chose the few people who could use it and live, was produced again earlier this year in Los Angeles. I enjoy what I do.

It's been a pleasure to "meet" you and several others here, who help me understand the Kindle market and what it can offer independent publishers such as myself and, perhaps, my future students.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

My imprint is called Dancaster Creative after the street where my house (just sold -lucky) stands. I use that for my website www.dancaster.com and also on my print books and Kindle copyright.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Athenagwis (Apr 2, 2009)

No, I knew you were not a best selling author.  I figured you were probably at about the same level at RJ or Ed.  That’s why I wanted to know your numbers.  Because it seems like everyone is saying “get a publisher”, “get a publisher”, “you can’t do Kindle only”.  It sounds like you have done exactly what they have done except in paperback form, gone out on your own.  I am curious with your own imprint, are the profits similar to Kindle?  I guess Amazon gives authors 33% of sales, is that about what you get?  I thought you had said your book was published with an official publisher, and I was curious to see how much better a book does than Kindle when someone is with one, even if they are only a small player in the game there.  Maybe one of your two books will get picked up and we can all see how it works out!

Rachel


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Rachel, you have it right in that I've been working the independent angle from the print side. Once I learned that most books are still sold in stories and not online (79% vs. 21%), I then set out to find HOW to get in bookstores. I started with a local store, and they were willing to take the book on consignment. I wasn't about to go around the country to over 8,000 stores and lend them copies of my books. My book was available through Ingram, which is the largest book distributor in the country, so WHY weren't my books in stores? I set out to learn why. Thanks to Barnes and Noble's Small Press Department at company headquarters in New York, I learned a few basic facts that pertain to all bookstores:

1) Any bookstore--true of Barnes and Noble as well as any small non-chain store--wants at least a 40% discount from cover price. Then it's considered a "retail" discount. Anything less than that is called a "short discount," meaning there isn't enough of a profit margin to stock the book and a store will order it if paid for in advance by a customer. I then learned that Lulu, who was then printing my first book, could not lock in any discount. Thus, I learned that _The Middle-Aged Man and the Sea_, priced at $12.95, was being sold to bookstores for $11.00. What bookstore would pay $11 for a possible $2 profit? No one. Thus I moved my book to Lightning Source, getting a new ISBN number. It's far cheaper to print at Lightning Source, where, if you give Ingram a 55% discount, Ingram will sell to bookstores with a 40% discount. Thus, Ingram buys my book for $5.83 and it costs me about $3.83 to print, thus giving me $2 a book or a 15% royalty. Publishers typically give authors anywhere from 6% to 10% royalties on paperbacks. I'm getting 66 cents from Kindle at the book's introductory price. If I moved the price on Kindle to $5.95, then I'd match what I make in print per book. If we're talking only a thousand copies, then it's still not something I could live off of. I spent over $4,000 to get that first book launched, so I'm close to being in the black now. The costs of editing, proofing, designing and of sending out Advance Reading Copies to reviewers is really about $6,000. Add another $5,000 if you want a New York publicity agency. Thanks to the reception of my first book, I've received grants on my last two books, which have helped defray costs.

2) Book chains and many stores, in selecting which books to order, want to know how big a marketing campaign will there be. Why stock a book if no one has heard of it? The big stores, as you know, don't chat with customers and lead them around the store suggesting good books, as can happen with independent stores run by book lovers. Thus, stores want to know if people might be asking for the book. Bookstores and libraries learn about books from trade journals such as _Publisher's Weekly, Booklist, Library Journal _ and _Kirkus Reviews_. Ads in those can help make a book recognized and ordered. Small publishers and independent publishers may have very little if anything for a marketing campaign--thus store shelf space is not likely

3) The yearly trade convention, called Book Expo of America, which rotates among New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, is primarily designed for publishers to meet booksellers, and publishers give away books like crazy, hoping stores will stock them. It costs about $100 for a ticket each day to go, so average readers are filtered out. It's a trade show. Small publishers have either very small booths--a table with a sign behind them--or don't go at all. Almost no independent publishers have booths, so again, communication with booksellers is missed.

Every author hopes for reviews, of course, great ones, wonderful ones in newspapers and magazines, but there are fewer and fewer there. Literary websites are picking up the slack, but truth is, most people don't go on the Internet to search for reviews, and with 200,000 books coming out each year with ISBN numbers (which publishers use for distribution), there's a lot of product competing for attention. It's why I'm pleased that my novel _The Brighest Moon of the Century_ has received 25 reviews so far, 23 of them fabulous, and two mixed. There are another ten reviews on Amazon.

So it's all about marketing and word-of-mouth. Movie studios crank out about 400 movies each year, and it's amazing how most people don't know most of them. Imagine if studios turned out 200,000 movies each year. That's what the book business essentially is. There are another 100,000 self-published titles coming out each year without ISBN numbers but sold directly (or given away to friends and family), so there's even more in the mix. Kindle users of course benefit because well-advertised books you'll Whispernet to your device. To discover any indie books means you're spending time here on the boards purposely looking for interesting threads or great reviews.

In sum, that's why you hear "get a publisher" because stores are still where most readers go, and publishers have the marketing muscle to make it work. The biggest weakness in this whole system, though, is that bookstores can return unsold books to the distributor for a refund. Imagine if your grocery store didn't sell enough avocados, a brand of toothpaste, or any of its items and could send anything back. This is the way bookstores operate, and the biggest beneficiary are the truck drivers hauling product all over the place. Those hardback books you get at Borders are returned books being sold at discount to get back a tiny portion of the costs and shipping.

Soon bookstores will have something called the Espresso Book Machine, which is as big as a one-hour photo machine. When you're in a store and there's not a copy on the shelf, you'll be able to get this machine to pump out a copy that will look as good as a book shipped in. Digital printing is and will be changing the marketplace.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Andra (Nov 19, 2008)

I can chime in with a reader's perspective. I don't remember a time when I didn't read. I tend to read very quickly and in the past, would often have to carry several books with me everywhere I went so I wouldn't get caught without something to read. There were several favorites that stayed in the car, several in the travel trailer, at least one in my laptop bag, etc.
Now with the Kindle, I have an entire library with me - ALL THE TIME! And if I can't find anything in my library that I want to read, I can go shopping and pick up something new. I think that being able to sample a Kindle book is one of the best tactics that Amazon came up with. It's very easy to take a look at new authors or new genres without a big investment. And if I get pulled into the story, it's easy to purchase the book.
I have tried a lot of new (to me) authors based on recommendations from people here on the boards. I've also read some stuff that wouldn't have grabbed my attention in a regular book store because of the "give the first one away free" thing. Naomi Novik's Temeraire books are a perfect example. I've even gotten my husband hooked on them and we would have totally missed them if I hadn't gotten the first one free.
And once I get hooked on a series, I am the "instant gratification" sort and need ALL OF THEM - NOW! So I am willing to pay a higher price for the follow-ups. I still try to hold to no higher than $9.99, but let's face it, if I were still purchasing paper books, I would shell out the money for a hardback on release date for a favorite author. So as long as the Kindle version is the same price as the paper book, I'll purchase it (or pre=order it) so I can read it as soon as it comes out. Recently Donna Andrews released her latest Meg Langslow book _Swan for the Money_. The hardback was released on July 21st and I managed to resist until I noticed that the Kindle version arrived - August 14th. So this business about the publishers not wanting to release the Kindle version at the same time as the hardback is silly. In the past I would have stopped on the way home and picked up the hardback, but no longer. So they are losing sales anyway...
Just my two cents...


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Your two cents are valuable. I love witnessing the joy someone has in reading. I just wrote to a favorite author, Marisha Chamberlain, whose book "The Rose Variations" (http://www.amazon.com/The-Rose-Variations/dp/B001IV75HG) is available on Kindle for $9.99. Her publisher, SoHo Press, is fairly large, and while the hardback came out last year and the paperback will come out in February, I note that she's as hard working on self-marketing as Edward Patterson and RJ Keller are here (and there's no shame in that!). Having a traditional publisher does not mean you have it made. Marisha is still fairly unknown, but she's doing her best to change that. In fact, I met her this year at the AWP Conference when she moderated a panel called "Shameless Promotion." The panel will be returning to the conference in Denver, April 2010. She has a great sense of humor, and a good sense of poetry in her writing. Her novel is about Rose McGregor, a talented composer navigating academia in the early days of feminism. I'm hoping Marisha will join Kindleboards. Her website is http://www.marishachamberlain.com/.

I have to say as an author, to witiness someone enjoying my work as much as you enjoy Naomi Novik's Temeraire's books is a special delight. I see that in some of my books' reviews where the writer quotes her favorite passages and explains what was eye opening. As I write, I sometimes think, "Readers will be surprised when they get here." It's important to write with an audience in mind.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> Just to weigh in here...
> 
> WFS is priced at .99 because I'm a new author with no pedigree (ie, no media/teaching experience, no degree, etc) and I realize that I'm a risk. Personally (and I hope this doesn't sound egotistical, egocentric, or ego-anything-else) I think it's worth more than that, but I'm smart enough to know that an unknown, DIY author can't expect to ask it. How my next book does, sales-wise, might be a more apt study case.
> 
> Right now I'm flying by pure instinct, not by any sort of proven marketing plan, and having more fun than is legal in several states.


I use to sell Kirby vacuum cleaners door to door. One of the key selling tips I got from my boss was "Fake it until you make it." What that means is, if you present yourself as an amateur or a newbie, people will treat you like a newbie. If you present yourself as an expert, people will treat you like an expert. Having a "pedigree" isn't about having a degree, it's about knowing your subject matter and being able to articulate it. My old boss didn't even have a high school diploma, but he taught himself the art of selling and now runs a very successful business selling friggin $1800 vacuum cleaners DOOR TO DOOR in this economy.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Well said Barsandsages:

Whenever I'm in a room, people know it. In the words of Maya Angelou, who I had the pleasure to meet in Tampa at the Gay & Lesbian Choral Festival -

"If you don't invent yourself - somebody else will."

Edward C. Patterson


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

bardsandsages said:


> I use to sell Kirby vacuum cleaners door to door. One of the key selling tips I got from my boss was "Fake it until you make it." What that means is, if you present yourself as an amateur or a newbie, people will treat you like a newbie. If you present yourself as an expert, people will treat you like an expert. Having a "pedigree" isn't about having a degree, it's about knowing your subject matter and being able to articulate it. My old boss didn't even have a high school diploma, but he taught himself the art of selling and now runs a very successful business selling friggin $1800 vacuum cleaners DOOR TO DOOR in this economy.


True. But it isn't about presenting myself as an amateur vs professional; it's about being realistic. I could not, and did not, expect people to shell out 9.99 for an e-book on an unknown, self-published author. I am extremely confident in my talent, almost obnoxiously so, and don't feel any great lack by not having a degree, but since I write literary fiction, I'm aware that other people do. The stigma surrounding self-publishing makes that battle even harder. It's not fair, but neither is life and it's a reality I have to deal with. Fortunately, the web has opened up so many avenues to get around that...IF writers are willing to take a chance on trying unconventional methods to get themselves and their work noticed.

I am.

I offered my novel for free for several months before making it available to purchase. Like the shampoo commercial from the 70's, people who read it loved it and told their friends about it, then they told their friends, and so on and so on. One of those readers posted about it here, unbeknownst to me, which is when things really took off. Once I made it available to purchase, I did so as inexpensively as possible. A great many people who've bought my book on Kindle did so because it _was _ inexpensive (most of the time I offered it at $3, with a summertime special of .99 - which ends in September! Get it at that price while you can!). Most of those people were pleasantly surprised by the quality of the writing, which is exactly what I was hoping for. (Please see the comments on my Waiting For Spring thread in the book bazaar forum.)

I'm purposely not using traditional methods  to put myself out there, because I firmly believe most of those methods are obsolete. But believe me, I am building my platform by getting my work into readers' hands any way I can. I'm making myself available to readers by using social networking (chiefly my blog and video blogs, Twitter and Facebook), and by marketing (for example, my t-shirt contest). Next time around, I'll have a (relatively) recognizable name and a proven track record.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RJ, that's the most impotnt thing. You must have validated talent and a quality product - and my dahlink, you got the goods.  

Ed Patterson


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Why, thank you Sweetie!
And, with all sincerity, right back atcha! (Going to check out 'Gulag' at Smashwords this evening...WOW my TBR pile is growing this week...)


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## Xopher (May 14, 2009)

Chrismeeks said:


> The only figures I have for independent publishers are from Edward Patterson and RJ Keller. Patterson says he's sold nearly 2000 copies in eighteen months. If his books are priced at an average of $1.99, that means he makes 66-cents per sale times 110 books a month. That equals $73 per month, which might, if he's lucky, pay gas for his car each month. Keller has sold up to 300 books a month on Kindle, but "Waiting for Spring" is priced at 99 cents, meaning she makes 33 cents per book or up to $99 a month.
> 
> Mr. Patterson says he's publishing on Kindle because his books find new readers and it doesn't cost him anything. That's perfectly admirable. I'm looking for new readers, too. I've supported myself as a professional writer for over twenty years, but the marketplace is changing, and I'm doing my best to understand it. The writers and artists you love need support.
> 
> At the extreme other end is J.K. Rowling whose last book _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows_ sold 8.3 million copies in 24 hours. At that time, there were 133.5 million copies of the Potter books in print in the USA. Let's say she gets a conservative 10% of the list price per book (and it's probably closer to double that), which would mean she made $3.49 per book. Multiply that by 8.3 million, and she made $29 million in 24 hours--probably more. Kindle isn't even ancillary for her. The publishers apparently don't even think of it.


I think what I see wrong with this analogy is that if someone like J.K. Rowling did offer e-books, they wouldn't be $.99. If she were offering her books at close to DTB pricing, she would probably be making close to the $3.49 per DTB. With that in mind, her decision to not bring out digital copies has nothing to do with the amount of royalties she would be making.

Also, making only $.33 per sale is your choice based on the price you set. You have an expectation that the book will not sell unless priced low. Even when your summer sale is over, and you return to the higher price (and ~$1 royalt per sale) it is based on your perception of what will sell the book. Unless this is the only book you plan on selling, I don't think it is fair to say you can't live on $99/month in royalties.

I think Ed and others do have a way of working the system properly. Some ebooks are free, some inexpensively priced, and others at a fair market value. The combination not only gets the word out about these books, it makes it more of a sustaining effort. I know, even with some of the unknown authors I've read through free/discounted ebboks, that I have become fond of more authors. I know they won't profit directly from selling that inexpensive/free version, but I am definitely more apt to purchase higher priced books in the future. It's the number of other books put out by the author that make it more profitable.

So, if your first ebook is out on the market for $.99 and I really like it, I would have no problem reading the next ebook for $3, $5, or more. If your second, third, and fourth ebooks also came out for $.99, I would probably continue to purchase them, but would see a pattern emerging that you were building a reputation as a cheap author. If the fifth ebbok came out at $9.99, it would really make me wonder if it was really that much better than anything you published before.

There have also been a few authors who didn't make it through the traditional publisher vetting. They came out with their digital copies, sold well on Amazon, and were picked up by traditional publishers. It can be a good stepping stone if you market yourself accordingly. I think the difference here is that the self/indie publishing becomes a tool to bring more attention to readers AND publishers. Those who have quality writing can use the growing digital market to nurture their writing future.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Xopher brings up a big point about marketing that hasn't come up on this thread yet, which is that one's first book is not the end but the start of marketing one's name. RJ Keller and Ed Patterson alluded to it and now I understand the point: self-publishers, independent publishers, and even small publishers with multiple authors need to first seduce people into trying their product and then build from there. Each new book gets a little more expensive. 

In fact, this is where I see some self-publishers make a huge mistake--or at least caught in a bind--when going to print. It simply costs to make a book. At Lulu, the author's cost for printing is $4.53 plus two cents a page. Thus, a short, 200-page book would cost $8.53. If that book was to be available through Ingram for bookstore ordering, with a mere $1 profit, the book would have to be priced at $16.70 (which I came to using Lulu's retail price calculator). That's a bit much if you're trying to seduce buyers and build your name. If you took only a 33-cent profit, the book would be priced at $15.24. 

Another example: a friend with a new fantasy book told me his book will be at least 700 pages in a 6 x 9 format (trade paperback). That means his cost will be at least $18.53 per book. If he wants to make a $4 profit on that book that large, the book would need to be priced at $42.20 retail. Almost no one will buy a paperback for that price.

If this author only took 33 cents of profit, the book would still retail for $33.24. That's still too much. With a large book, you aren't even on the playing field. This same author, however, could take his book to Kindle and sell the massive tome for 99 cents to earn the same 33 cents, or sell it or $12.00 to earn a four-dollar profit. As shown on other threads, many people are reluctant to spend over $9.99 on a Kindle book, yet the 700-page book is #3 in a series. The first one could be 99 cents, the second, $3.99, and the third, maybe 11.99 if his authors are hooked.

When I worked for a publisher years ago, our 400-page trade paperbacks cost $1 a copy, which we retailed at $10.95. Self-publishers don't have the cost advantage that a big publisher does. Kindle, though, evens that out.

I don't want to knock Lulu here, by the way. Lulu's pricing reflects no set-up fee. It's much cheaper to print using Lightning Source, nearly half the cost per book (or just under ten dollars for a 700-page book) but there's a $75 set-up fee. You better make sure your book needs no corrections because you have to pay the fee again to set it up again with corrections. I still use Lulu to get test copies of my books. I get those test copies at author cost, then give them to my proofreaders. When there are corrections (as there always are), I then go back to Lulu to make another test copy. For people not trying to get their books into bookstores, the pricing isn't so bad, either. One could sell the 200-page book on the Lulu website for $12.95--reasonable for a trade paperback--and still make a couple bucks per book.

--Christopher Meeks


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

I started with Lulu, but the cost for a 480 page book was just too prohibitive, even without an ISBN. That's why I decided to go with CreateSpace. It's half the cost, which means I can offer my novel at a much more reasonable price. I got a good deal, because I didn't have to pay the original set up fee - which includes an ISBN - because I got a coupon for having won NaNoWriMo in 2007. Even then, we're only talking an extra 30-something bucks. It was easier to get it listed on Amazon through CS than through Lulu, too. (Right now it's only available online, although I'm working on getting it into some local independent bookstores.)

An aside: Lulu.com recently announced that they're discontinuing the "published by you" option.

http://llbookreview.com/2009/08/lulu-com-discontinues-the-published-by-you-pby-option/


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RJ:

As you know from book, I us Lulu's softwarefor galley creation and then publish it on CreateSpace. Lulu is too expensive to allow me to offer a book at a reasonable price. 

Chris:

opher has many good points. However, I don;t think "seduce readers," was one of the. I would never seuce a reader. I treat readers with respect and if they find anything seductive about me, it's my books - after they have read one. Honesty, air play, conversation and immediate compensation for any disatisfaction is what a reader expects beyond a good read. I do not think of that as seduction. 

As for publishing resources that afford an Independant authro to publish with the same cost breaks that large publishing house afford, there is one: CreateSpace.

Edward C, Patterson


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2009)

Chrismeeks said:


> Xopher brings up a big point about marketing that hasn't come up on this thread yet, which is that one's first book is not the end but the start of marketing one's name. RJ Keller and Ed Patterson alluded to it and now I understand the point: self-publishers, independent publishers, and even small publishers with multiple authors need to first seduce people into trying their product and then build from there. Each new book gets a little more expensive.


I would go one step further. Your marketing should have started six months to a year BEFORE you released the first book. If you are waiting until after the book is released, you have already put yourself behind the game. If you start marketing before you publish, you won't have the weird "I don't expect people to spend more than 99 cents on a new author" feeling so many authors seem to have.

Think about it. In all seriousness, almost every bestselling author already had a reader base before they published their first book. That's because they were actively involved in the publishing industry elsewhere first. Short stories in magazines. Participating in conventions. Writing columns for local media. Memberships to various writer guilds. In more recent times, participation in online communities. Blogging.

Unfortunately, with the rise of POD and ebooks a lot of authors are skipping the leg work and going straight to publication, and then wondering why they are fighting so hard to get attention. But a lot of folks are trying to take a shortcut in the process by jumping to publication before they have bothered to lay the groundwork for their books' success.

Self-publishing writers can learn from the traditional industry in that regards. Book publishers, for example, send out galley proofs for review months before a book is released. Most self-published writers start looking for reviews after they released the book. This is a huge difference that directly impacts overall sales. Book reviews sell books. On average, if you send out ten review copies, you are only going to get five or six reviews (assuming you actually checked first to make sure the reviewer even reviews your genre). It will generally take at least a month before the review even appears anywhere. Usually longer. The simple act of waiting until the book is released pushes a lot of your marketing potential behind.

Someone mentioned not using "traditional" marketing methods earlier. Why, when they work? Of course, the independent author needs to make adjustments to those methods, but I would never avoid them outright or out of spite. They are effective. They work. I think people avoid them not because they are obsolete, but because folks don't really understand the processes and reasons behind them.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

There is nothing like a free Press Release built into your marketing plan. And you promote the release as if the book is already out.

Edward C. Patterson


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

I hate to butt in, but as a fairly new Kindle user and a just-published author, I've been reading this thread, and it's absolutely fascinating as well as being very informative. I have to add that Mr. Patterson's guides for publishing and marketing e-books and POD books has been invaluable for me. And Ms. Keller, "Waiting for Spring" is keeping me await till late at night, it's so good. Hopefully I'll finish it by tomorrow, so I can resume my life. 

EDIT: I finished "Waiting for Spring" tonight. I couldn't wait any longer to find out how it ends for Tess. What a marvelous novel.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

I'm loving this thread. I'm with Ms. Dawson in that old-fashioned marketing still works. New movies, whether from studios or independent filmmakers, are marketed well in advance of their openings--because the films only have a small window when they might be in theatres. Books are similar. Publishers select a publication date because then the reviewers are likely to aim their reviews to come out around that date. This is to say that a single review alone is not likely to sell a lot of books. David Poindexter, editor at the prestigious MacAdam/Cage Books in San Francisco, said that a cover review in the Sunday New York Times Book Review only generates about a thousand sales. You'd think that, no, that would mean a NY Times bestseller. It's not. He said, however, if one has reviews coming out at the same time elsewhere, there's a geometric effect to sales. If people come across your book in a few places within a short time, the impulse to get it is stronger. Think about your own buying pattern. If you read good reviews, aren't you likely to consider a movie or book more? If a few people mention the same movie or book on top of that, aren't you almost compelled? That's the goal in your marketing. Resist the rush to publish and set up a marketing campaign, even if it's as small as sending out ten review copies three months in advance.

By the way, six reviews out of ten mailings would be a huge success pattern. I've found sending out twenty books to newspapers might generate one review--but that one review can be important. A review of my novel in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune earlier this year, for instance, caused a number of Minnesota libraries and Barnes and Noble stores in that state to order my book. The other reviews that came out at the same time helped with the sales some. For literary websites, I email the reviewers a query to see if I may send them a copy of my book. If they say yes, about 90% of those people end up reviewing my book. I have over two dozen reviews for my novel, "The Brightest Moon of the Century" (which isn't available on Kindle yet, but will come out next year after people are introduced to my fiction in my low-cost short story collections).

My esteemed colleagues in these Kindleboards, Edward Patterson and R.J. Keller, are visible in a few threads on any given day in positive ways. One can't help but be interested in their work. (And I love the mention of "Waiting for Spring" above. It's honest and compelling.) If you select to go no farther than Kindle publishing, it's a great market in itself.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

Chrismeeks said:


> He said, however, if one has reviews coming out at the same time elsewhere, there's a geometric effect to sales. If people come across your book in a few places within a short time, the impulse to get it is stronger.


This also is completely in line with the generally accepted notion in marketing that a potential customer needs to see something SEVEN TIMES before they will even remember it, let alone feel a need to buy it. Repetition of message is the single most important aspect of marketing. Price is a secondary factor, because the more familiar a person is with a brand, the more they will pay. So the goal is to make people familiar with your product by repeating your message over and over at a variety of different places.

It took me over a year to finally decide to buy a Kindle. And when I did, I bought the Kindle DX, not the less expensive K2 which just had the price reduction. Even if the DX had been $200 a year ago, it still would have taken me that long to make the decision because I first needed to become comfortable with the idea of the technology and overcome my own consumer apathy to make the decision to buy.

Marketing is a long term commitment that begins long before you publish and continues long after the book has been released.


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## jderouen (Jul 15, 2009)

I've written 2.75 novels, none of them as of yet published. I've been going the traditional route for the last several years, querying agents, which has resulted in nada. I've had some interest, but no bites. And... I've sort of given up, hard as that is to admit. Had a really bad experience with an agent who led me on for way too long, which left a bad taste in my mouth, and so I haven't even queried in over a year. I'm strongly considering going the e-book route, but still have that dream of seeing my name on a novel in a brick and mortar book store. (I did see my name on the front of The Idiot's Guide to Windows XP, 2nd ed., because I wrote the forward, but that's as far as I've gotten!)

I don't expect to get rich from my novels. I've been a freelance non-fiction writer for about fifteen years, and that, along with my web hosting and design business, pays the bills. I just want people to read my work, be it in paper or Kindle format.

This thread has been informative and will certainly help in making a decision.

(If anyone if interested in the "really bad experience with an agent" story, please read my blog at http://joederouen.com/blog/index.html)

Joe


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## jderouen (Jul 15, 2009)

Well, I guess I managed to kill this discussion.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

jderouen said:


> Well, I guess I managed to kill this discussion.


Au contraire, mon ami. I think it just ran out of steam, or the main participants are catching their breath. In any case, it has been one of the most interesting and helpful threads I've seen on Kindle Boards since I joined.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Jim and Joe--

Yep, not only was I gathering steam, but I'm in the last part of a novel, and my steam went there for a couple of days. 

I'm pleased to hear, Jim, that you found this an interesting thread. I've been learning in it, too, and gathering experience that I hope to use next year in a panel I'll be moderating on the subject. Jim, your experiences are exactly why self-publishing is gaining such momentum. The trick is to do it well, though. As Julie Ann Dawson pointed out in this thread or another, too many self-publishers rush to publishing without doing the kind of detail work a real publisher would do. In hope's I'm not being too redundant, here's the following timeline I suggest if you want to take one of your books forward to where it's actually published on paper and in e-book:

1) Hire a freelance editor to read your work and work closely with you. A good one will cost in the neighborhood of $50 to $80 an hour or $1500 to $2500 per novel. A good one will be able to see the structure and recommend stronger structure as well as work at a paragraph level. Too much work at the sentence level is a distraction. If you need to hire a proofreader first to make it readable for an editor, do so.

2) After you've worked with an editor, now get a few proofreaders. All you're concerned now is grammar and spelling and punctuation--it should be perfect. That might cost $300 to $500 per novel--or much more if there are a lot of errors. 

3) Give what you think is the finished book to a few trusted readers. Before you go out in the world, you want to make sure you don't have egg on your face.

4) Now choose a publishing company along the lines of Lulu, iUniverse, CreateSpace, BookSurge, and Lightning Source. There are other threads in Kindleboards where I wrote about this. (Sorry, I don't remember at this point. It's probably in the Book Bazaar forum.) There are differences between each company. Lulu offers no upfront costs, but the cost of printing is more. They have to make up for it somewhere.

5) Choose a publication date far three or four months in advance. Send out copies of your book to reviewers. A good book to get a sense of what to do at this point is "The Frugal Book Promoter" by Carolyn Howard-Johnson. You'll learn about media releases, book reviewers, and more.

6) Set up a publication party for your book--at a local bookstore, a library, or home. Enjoy that day immensely. Because one of your goals is to have it in a bookstore, having a publication party in one is a way to make sure your book is there. Bookstores like publication parties because the authors' friends, family, and other people come and buy books.

I hope this helps.

--Christopher Meeks

7) Upload a version of your book for Kindle.


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## cjpatrick (Jan 4, 2009)

I know it's off topic, or maybe it isn't, but I just bought your book RJ. All this talk about it made me curious.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

cjpatrick said:


> I know it's off topic, or maybe it isn't, but I just bought your book RJ. All this talk about it made me curious.


Same here. And I loved it!


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Thanks guys!


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## Cammie (Nov 15, 2008)

cjpatrick said:


> I know it's off topic, or maybe it isn't, but I just bought your book RJ. All this talk about it made me curious.


Me too...tried to buy it but it shows as unavailable just now.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

The topic is right on. Before I ever set foot into Kindleboards, RJ gave me advice on how to introduce my books and how to use Kindleboards. She's an expert, and her publishing her book for the Kindle has been masterful. I'm worried, though, that her book (or mine?) is unavailable. Is it because your Kindle is not near a cell tower or is there another reason?

--Christopher Meeks


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

> Is it because your Kindle is not near a cell tower or is there another reason?


   (That made me snort.)

It's because I changed the price. Usually it clears up in a day or two, so hopefully it will be available again tomorrow. (Fingers crossed!)


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> It's because I changed the price. Usually it clears up in a day or two, so hopefully it will be available again tomorrow. (Fingers crossed!)


I'm glad you mentioned that. I just changed the price on my Kindle book yesterday, and I'm getting the "Your book is currently under review by the Kindle Operations team as we are trying to improve the Kindle customer experience. Please check back in 5 business days to see if your book was published to the store. This will not affect any titles you are currently selling in the store, but uploading updates to existing titles will take longer to process." message.


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## KasperKindler (Feb 17, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> (That made me snort.)
> 
> It's because I changed the price. Usually it clears up in a day or two, so hopefully it will be available again tomorrow. (Fingers crossed!)


I'm trying to download it too from Amazon - nada...


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Just became available again. [insert sound of the sigh of relief heard 'round the world here]


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> Just became available again. [insert sound of the sigh of relief heard 'round the world here]


RJ, did you get the same message that I got?


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

If you mean email, then nope. My stupid, stinking Gmail is down.

What message did you get?


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

RJ ME TOO. Great Minds work alike (he he). Look Away lence's new price came up. We must have changed our prices at almost the same time.

Edward C. Patterson


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjkeller said:


> What message did you get?


_Your book is currently under review by the Kindle Operations team as we are trying to improve the Kindle customer experience. Please check back in 5 business days to see if your book was published to the store. This will not affect any titles you are currently selling in the store, but uploading updates to existing titles will take longer to process._


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

Oh...yep, I got that message when I first changed the price. The book was still available, though. Then, this morning, the message was gone, but my book was _un_available. Fortunately, that only lasted a few hours.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks! It's kind of scary to see the message for the first time.


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

It freaked me out first time, too.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

My book is back online today, that's a relief. It was only in limbo about two days.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

The last few messages show the finer points of publishing on the Kindle--and I'm glad to see the problems of changing prices are quickly resolved.

For anyone new to this thread, or if you simply want to see some of the messages all digested, I wrote about Kindle and self-publishing in three short articles in my latest newsletter, the Maplewoods Mirror. You can read the articles at http://homepage.smc.edu/meeks_christopher/Maplewoods%20Mirror%2042.htm. The Maplewoods Mirror, by the way, is eclectic. Not only are there the three mentioned articles, but there's also a short humorous look at my love for the Dyson vacuum, and a look at love itself in a review of the film "(500) Days of Summer."

If you want to see past Maplewoods Mirrors, go to my website at www.chrismeeks.com and scroll down. If you want a free subscription, fill in the form with your name and email address. I do NOT sell or give away my subscription list. I see the Maplewoods Mirror as another creative work, and I'm honored with subscribers.

--Christopher Meeks


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

A PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY ARTICLE AND A PW BLOG ON THIS SUBJECT:

Yes, a Publishers Weekly article just came out about self-publishing, specifically about the collective that R.J. Keller and I are in. Unfortunately, Ms. Keller's name wasn't mentioned, but she's a big part of Backword Books. You can read the article online at http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6687523.html?nid=2286&rid=#CustomerId&source=link.

What may be even more interesting is a blog at Publisher's Weekly with the heading "I Don't Want to Hate Self-Publishers," taking something that Henry Baum had said and getting a lot of people writing about it. Feel free to add your voice over at Publishers Weekly. The blog is at http://www.publishersweekly.com/blog/400000640/post/1960048596.html. No one has mentioned Kindle there yet.

--Christopher Meeks

P.S. Just after I wrote the above, I received an email that the above-mentioned blog was referring to an interview in the _Sacramento News & Review_ with independent author Henry Baum. The full-text of that article, which is also about self-publishing, is at http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/2009/09/03/interview-with-spr-editor-in-the-sacramento-news-review/


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## ashash (Aug 12, 2009)

Greg Banks said:


> I wish you hadn't used the term "real" instead of traditional, even though you did use quotation marks around it. My books are published in just as "real" a fashion as any other authors, no matter the manner in which they were published.


great! just great! 
i have come to love seeing your post! 
i am a writer my self, mostly poetry.
i have been composing a poetry book for many years now.
in the last year or so i have also started writing a detective novel, similar to "James Patterson".
i never knew that i could even get any of it published on the kindle, that give's my writing new life!


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Good luck, Ashash, on your quest to write a mystery. This weekend, I finished the first draft of a mystery that I've been working on for almost two years. What James Patterson does is no accident. That is, there are some basic structural things that go into a mystery. If you need help, UCLA Extension often offers an online writing class for the mystery. _Writing Mysteries_ by the Mystery Writers of America is also a great book on the subject. It's not about finding a formula but about building and working with expectations. I doubt I've nailed it in one draft, but I'm thrilled now that I have the basics down.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

On September 11, I and five other authors were on Stacey Cochran's _BookChatter_, a new free-form Internet video show. Our episode created a record number of viewers. Mr. Cochran has just started the show this summer, and his experiment is a fabulous one.

The topic of this thread came up toward the end of the show, and in listening to Henry Baum and Kristen Tsetsi, I had a realization. People go to self-publishing for a few reasons, including the following:

a) There's frustration with the traditional process of finding an agent, who then finds a publisher, who then publishes your book 18 months or two years later.

b) You can't take the rejection in trying to find an agent or publisher.

c) You want to be published NOW. That self-publishing offers more immediate results.

d) You think you can make as much money self-publishing.

Reasons "a" and "c" make sense to me, but the other two don't. If you can't take the rejection in the traditional route, wait until you try self-publishing. You will encounter "No" often. That is, you'll discover that many (if any) bookstores don't want your book. Reviewers will say no far more than yes. In fact, you'll lucky to get any reviews beyond your friends and family offering theirs on Amazon. TV and radio will say no. Speaking engagements at bookstores: no. In other words, to be a successful self-publisher, you have to push hard and accept a lot of rejection. You have to find the reviewers, bookstores, and speaking engagements despite all the rejection.

If you want to make money in books, you're far more likely to make money with a traditional publisher than self-publishing. One exception is in front of you on these boards. Last night on the show, Edward Patterson mentioned he's selling about fourteen books *a day*, mostly on Kindle. That's admirable. While it's still below the Stephen King level, Mr. Patterson is still on the rise. His audience is finding him. What's real about the publishing industry is that few people make much money. Certainly don't expect it in self-publishing.

Also, if you self-publish correctly, you'll resist being published immediately and do what traditional publishers do. You'll hire an editor and make sure your book is strong and readable. You'll set up a publishing date, send advance copies to reviewers well ahead of your publication date, and generate publicity for your new book. If you can find noted authors or experts to comment on your book, you'll do so. In other words, you need to give yourself six months or more to bring out your book in a professional way if you want to get beyond a hundred sales. You have to resist publishing your typo-strewn, poorly worded first draft immediately and do the hard work instead. Be professional. If you merely want to make copies for your friends and family, that's another matter.

One thing I might do differently with the next book is after it's edited and polished, I'll bring it to Kindle first. I'll make Kindle readers part of the advance-reading group. Your opinion matters.

If you want to see the September 11th _BookChatter_, click on the image below:


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

Excellent observations!

This was the second week that I've watched the Friday night Book Chatter, and I think I'm getting addicted to it. It's pretty cool hearing from some of the same authors I see on Kindle Boards.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

The latest Book Chatter just finished with panelists Moriah Jovan, Holly Christine, Red Adept, Eric Mueller, Eddie Wright, Kevin Gerard, Holly C., and Dave Erickson. It should be up on YouTube shortly. One can catch it on Fridays at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bookchatter, where you will hear independent authors talking about what they do.


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

I hated to miss tonight's webcast, but we had a family party going on. I'll definitely catch it on the archive or YouTube.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Yes, I was scheduled to be on it, but had to go to NJ and Dad's. I'll be on next week.

Ed Patterson


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## JimC1946 (Aug 6, 2009)

I just watched the archived webcast (Book Chatter Episode , and it was a marvelous show with a great panel discussion. Here's the link: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2185540

I really enjoyed hearing Eric Mueller talking about his website "Flashlight Worthy." I've got it bookmarked now. http://www.flashlightworthybooks.com/

And it was a special treat to hear the world famous Lynn O'Dell talking about her blog, "Red Adept's Kindle Book Review Blog."


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## RJ Keller (Mar 9, 2009)

A very fun and informative show!
It was *great * to hear from Red Adept.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Let me throw a question in here for R.J., Kristen, Ed, Stacey, or any author on what two or three things have been best for you in marketing your books? That is, if you had a new book coming out in a couple months, where would you put your energies or money most? Blog radio and video is certainly one area, but so are press releases, hiring a publicist, sending out books to reviewers, giving readings, and more. What's been the most effective for you?

And you readers, how do you find what books to read? Is there a particular critic or newspaper you listen to the most? A treasured bookstore? How do you find books dependably?

--Chris


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I usually put out a press release 2 weeks befre the paper and ebook release. Then I promote to my mailing list of readers, and on Amazon and other networks. I do some guest blogging, if I'm lucky, but I rely on whatever small spark my brand kindles (and that rela small), because authors do not sell titles, they sell themselves. Usually n day one, I will get a burst of sales, then a long slow trough to the first review, when I can promote in earnest. Reader dont want to hear what you have to say about a bok. They want to know what other readrs say - andyou eed to bring those review dorward, because generally on-line shoppers don't always read the reviews. I have some fatihful readers that will buy and read me, but new readers rely on more than my good looks, which I don't have. As for paid advertising, I have only done it once, and we'll see how effective it is, because it is the upcoming Kindleboard Shopper. Fortunately and unfortunately, I have so many books moving forward that new ones get lost in the sauce. Ptience is a good halmark, unless you're Dan Brown and someone else is footing the bill. I will say, if you're just stepping into it with your first book, it's hard - and you need to work at it. You must also realize that you write books to be read and you need readers, but where's your limit? Don;t getsucked into the delusion that you've failed to market your book well because you only have sold 10 book in the first month. Remember, it could be worse. You could have spent $1,000 on advertising and sold only 10 books. Also, there are many sharks out there that want to break your heart and get your money. It is better to do it yourself and be frustrated for free than feel duped. Writing should be a pleasure. Marketing your book should be the reward of readership. If you are getting no satisfaction, then you are probably looking for the wrong thing - riches and fame. If your lucky, it will come. If you great, you'll get it posthumously.

Edward C. Patterson


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks, Ed, and I'll underscore your point that "Readers don't want to hear what you have to say about a book. They want to know what other readers say." I found this most vividly two weeks ago when both my short story collections had an amazing spike--to bestseller category on Amazon Kindle for short story collections--and I had absolutely no understanding why. Four days later, a friend emailed me a link, http://www.amazon.com/tag/kindle/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1D7SY3BVSESG&cdThread=Tx8ANGR0RGQKXC&displayType=tagsDetail, which goes to an Amazon forum.

There, under the heading of "Great Short Story Collection," someone had written enthusiastically about my writing, and then others joined in. An author cannot plan or expect such a thing, yet getting your work reviewed is important. I noticed today on one of Red Adept's threads that a reader said that a simple honorable mention on her Kindle review site brought a spike in his sales.

In this age of megamarketing, some authors have the mistaken notion they're a failure if their books aren't selling like Dan Brown's. _The New York Times_ in an article on self-publishing said the typical self-published book sells no more than a hundred copies. If you go in with low expectations, then selling 200 copies may thrill you. And if the book is good, the slow grassroots efforts of readers will find you.


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

I know the feeling and my colleagues at my day job cheer me on, because tomorrow they all get donuts because I went over the 2,000 book mark across all titles. They're already making their donut selection for the 2,500 mark. The one million book sales a day (Mr. Brown) may never be mine, but the one book a month days are gone forever. (And I can say that after I'm gone, I might still sustain more than one book a month).

Ed Patterson


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## marianneg (Nov 4, 2008)

Chrismeeks said:


> And you readers, how do you find what books to read? Is there a particular critic or newspaper you listen to the most? A treasured bookstore? How do you find books dependably?


Now that I have the Kindle, I find more books than I could ever possibly read from the Book Corner and Book Bazaar forums. I also snag freebies almost always as soon as I hear about them, either from amazon or from other sites. Pre-Kindle, I found stuff all over. If I found an author I liked, I'd get more of their stuff, of course. I bought books because I heard about them from friends or other authors, checked out stuff that caught my eye in the bookstore, recommendations at amazon, stuff like that.


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## Christopher Meeks (Aug 2, 2009)

Maria, your note and others with your enthusiasm inspired me to write a blog about who uses the Kindle and how independent authors are finding their readers. You can read it at http://www.redroom.com/blog/christopher-meeks/a-view-into-future.

Thank you for your note.

--Chris


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## kevindorsey (Mar 4, 2009)

Edward C. Patterson said:


> I know the feeling and my colleagues at my day job cheer me on, because tomorrow they all get donuts because I went over the 2,000 book mark across all titles. They're already making their donut selection for the 2,500 mark. The one million book sales a day (Mr. Brown) may never be mine, but the one book a month days are gone forever. (And I can say that after I'm gone, I might still sustain more than one book a month).
> 
> Ed Patterson


Its going to cost you a pretty "doughnut" to have everyone happy with your selection


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## Edward C. Patterson (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you Kevin. You get a Boston Creme.  

Ed Patterson


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