# Facebook Ad "Like" Fraud? - Just Say NO (MERGED)



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Thought this might be interesting to those of you who have paid or plan to pay to promote your page on Facebook.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Wow, that's interesting. It's hard to imagine an individual or a company of any size seeing that and then deciding to spend their advertising dollars at FB.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

I bloody knew it! I set up an ad the other day against my better judgement "just to see" I figured it was only £100 and once I knew for sure it wouldn't work, I wouldn't do it again. As it happens I cancelled after £30 because although the link had apparently been clicked lots of times, my affiliate code showed only 2!! sales. So i got $0.66 for by £30.

Bargain... NOT!!

Someone should sue them!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

That was very interesting! Thank you for sharing it. It explains things I've sensed, but couldn't quite pinpoint.


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Whatever you posted is blocked behind my work filter. Can someone summarize?


----------



## Chris Culver (Jan 28, 2011)

> Whatever you posted is blocked behind my work filter. Can someone summarize?


Ads on Facebook do not work because most paid "Likes" are actually from click farms.

That was extremely interesting. Thank you for posting it!


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Here's the BBC article he refers to in the video. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18819338


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks!


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Wow. I'm asking for my money back.


----------



## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

This was very interesting. Thank you for posting. It also makes you wonder how genuine their 'clicks' are. I ran a FB ad yesterday that was a colossal flop. I spent $5 and got 75 or so clicks, which seems great, but it only converted to 4 paid sales of a .99 sale book. That seemed a bit off to me...but who knows.


----------



## Saul Tanpepper (Feb 16, 2012)

bmcox said:


> Here's the BBC article he refers to in the video. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18819338


I've been a skeptic of FB's ads for a while, and the plethora of anecdotes leans in favor of that. I didn't watch the vid but got the gist of the message from his description on the YouTube page. Just realize that that the quoted article is from 2012. Somethings may have changed since then, but nothing I've read or heard has convinced me FB ads are any more effective now.


----------



## penrefe (Nov 30, 2011)

What a fascinating video. I have spent a total of $50 on Facebook advertising, though when I did it, I linked straight to my Amazon page instead of my Facebook page. 

It would be interesting to know though how many of the people who clicked on the links during my campaigns were genuine.

In any case, I think I'll save my meagre funds for more promising ventures in future, like throwing it down a wishing well or something...


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Here is the email I just sent to their feedback for advertising form.

After watching this video and realizing how many of my reach is fake, I would like the money I've spent on advertising, refunded back to my card: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfHeWTKjag


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

PamelaKelley said:


> This was very interesting. Thank you for posting. It also makes you wonder how genuine their 'clicks' are. I ran a FB ad yesterday that was a colossal flop. I spent $5 and got 75 or so clicks, which seems great, but it only converted to 4 paid sales of a .99 sale book. That seemed a bit off to me...but who knows.


I am unsure that we can make the connection between book purchases and likes. What can be said, and is said in the video, is that the likes bought through purchases may reduce visibility because they don't pass on that information to their friends. These likes create dead ends and these dead ends will not likely result in sales. However, we don't know what the ratio of likes to sales is, and I am unsure we will ever know.

What we do know now is that buying promotions on Facebook is fruitless.

Edit to add: Possibly likes generated from actual interest may, possibly, result in sales?


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Here is the email I just sent to their feedback for advertising form:
> 
> After watching this video and realizing how many of my reach is fake, I would like the money I've spent on advertising, refunded back to my card: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVfHeWTKjag


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

I'd be interested in hearing their response if you are willing to share it here.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

bmcox said:


> I'd be interested in hearing their response if you are willing to share it here.


Sure.


----------



## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

This guy is dead on the money, of course, but that doesn't mean using FB in a marketing role is worthless. This is where the niche groups, rather than fan pages, come in handy. Always double tap any promotional posts with an admin though.


----------



## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

What I found most alarming was where he showed how advertising on FB would lead to _less _interaction with your page, not more.


----------



## Kay Bratt (Dec 28, 2011)

ThePete said:


> This guy is dead on the money, of course, but that doesn't mean using FB in a marketing role is worthless. This is where the niche groups, rather than fan pages, come in handy. Always double tap any promotional posts with an admin though.


Very true. I've never spent a penny on Facebook, yet I know that I get a lot of follow through sales from that avenue. It's all about building relationships, and FB is still a great place to do that. My genre's readers aren't huge on Twitter or Instagram, instead still spend most of their free time on FB. Therefore, I'll continue concentrating my efforts there because I've made so many great reader friends through FB.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

It's not just the likes that are fake. Their pageview reports are fake as well.

My Bards and Sages FB page has 527 fans. Last week, I changed my FB header image and three people liked the image. Three people who I know are real people because I have interacted with them through my business in various ways. Strangely, that little line that supposedly tells you how many people saw your post/image? It only showed one person seeing it. Now I know those three people don't share a computer or live in the same house. They live in completely different parts of the country. 

So I ran a little experiment where I told my followers I was running an experiment to compare "likes" to the alleged pageviews and if they saw the post, to like it. I got a ton of likes (and comments) but strangely at several points in the day the number of people who SAW the post was actually less than the number of people who liked and commented. Later in the day, the numbers refreshed and the number of alleged pageviews exploded. But then I looked at the number of pageviews FB told me I had versus the number of likes and comments on posts for the last couple of weeks. It worked out to an average 1:10 ratio for every post. i.e. if five people liked a post, FB claimed 50 people saw it. This was consistent throughout the last couple of weeks regardless of the content of the post. 

This leads me to believe that, at best, FB has no idea who is actually seeing pages or, at worst, they are deliberately fabricating those numbers to trick people into paying for "boosts."

I have ran FB ads, but I have always concentrated on U.S., UK, and Canada with very specific keywords. The problem with link fraud in many countries has been around for a long time and has plagued other sites.


----------



## Gunspringer (Feb 4, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> This leads me to believe that, at best, FB has no idea who is actually seeing pages or, at worst, they are deliberately fabricating those numbers to trick people into paying for "boosts."


I have seen this too and my own theory was that if someone saw/liked the post on *my* page it gets a "Seen by", but if they see or like in the regular flow of posts it doesn't. Could that make sense?


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> It's not just the likes that are fake. Their pageview reports are fake as well.
> 
> My Bards and Sages FB page has 527 fans. Last week, I changed my FB header image and three people liked the image. Three people who I know are real people because I have interacted with them through my business in various ways. Strangely, that little line that supposedly tells you how many people saw your post/image? It only showed one person seeing it. Now I know those three people don't share a computer or live in the same house. They live in completely different parts of the country.
> 
> ...


This is true. I've actually had pageviews go down! ? !


----------



## ThePete (Oct 10, 2013)

> Very true. I've never spent a penny on Facebook, yet I know that I get a lot of follow through sales from that avenue. It's all about building relationships, and FB is still a great place to do that. My genre's readers aren't huge on Twitter or Instagram, instead still spend most of their free time on FB. Therefore, I'll continue concentrating my efforts there because I've made so many great reader friends through FB.


Exactly, Kay. But man, is it hard work! Or maybe just because it's too easy to get sucked in.


----------



## JaroldWilliams (Jan 9, 2014)

Suddenly, my Facebook author page seems irrelevant.


----------



## geekgrrl (Oct 14, 2013)

This is a great video explaining why paid advertising on Facebook is a joke, and believe it or not could actually harm your fan base engagement there. I've placed some paid Facebook ads here and there and noticed the exact same trends and results as the creator of the video did. He does an excellent job of explaining what's going on.


----------



## Shalini Boland (Nov 29, 2010)

I've tried various ads with them, tweaked each day to compare results. The whole thing was a giant waste of time and money. I still get moderate engagement on my page, but only when I really put in the time and effort (which is fair enough I guess). But I do miss those days when _all_ my posts reached _all_ my fans *sigh*.

I get that they're a business and they have to make money. I'd be happy to pay a moderate monthly subscription if I could guarantee my posts would get seen by everyone who liked my page. I think that would be much better than the current sucky state of affairs.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Shalini Boland said:


> I get that they're a business and they have to make money. I'd be happy to pay a moderate monthly subscription if I could guarantee my posts would get seen by everyone who liked my page. I think that would be much better than the current sucky state of affairs.


I'd prefer that, too, but it's hard to imagine Fb going that direction.

Bernard, that video was eye-opening. Thanks for posting it. Makes me extremely glad I've never advertised my page.

ETA: Got Bernard's name wrong. Sigh. Sorry.


----------



## MatthewAlanThyer (Jan 13, 2014)

This guy has put out another video which highlights another problem with Facebook.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

MatthewAlanThyer said:


> This guy has put out another video which highlights another problem with Facebook.


Huh. Also interesting.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Like I've said previously, ads can work, but you have to build the skill set to make them happen. I'm a C student (working toward a B) so far.

Love this guy's videos. So helpful.

Yes, author pages are dead. You can't rely on them anymore. (Don't delete them though. I hold out hope that, eventually, FB will lose enough revenue to change OR be investigated by AGs or other govt authorities for their BS.) I've moved on to alternative approaches on FB b/c the readers are still there if you can reach them.

And hats off to all the book bloggers with FB pages still trying to make it work. I follow dozens of them and they are out there busting their butts to connect readers to books.

M


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

The TLW:



> It's common for between 25% and 35% of my page likes to engage with my page every month. Now here is Egypt, where less than 1% of my likes engage&#8230;. that's a big following but no engagement. Together, these pages make up over 80,000 likes at 1% engagement. That's roughly 75% of the total likes I had before the last video. And these are the profiles that followed me when I used Facebook advertising. They are worse than useless. Here's why.
> 
> When you make a post, Facebook distributes it to a small fraction of the people who like your page, just to gauge their reaction. If they engage with it by liking, commenting, and sharing then Facebook distributes the post to more of your likes and even their friends.
> 
> ...


This is a problem.

B.


----------



## Deena Ward (Jun 20, 2013)

Wow. Wonderful videos, excellent information. I had absolutely no idea.  

Did I say wow?

Thanks so much for posting this.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2014)

mrv01d said:


> Yes, author pages are dead. You can't rely on them anymore. (Don't delete them though. I hold out hope that, eventually, FB will lose enough revenue to change OR be investigated by AGs or other govt authorities for their BS.) I've moved on to alternative approaches on FB b/c the readers are still there if you can reach them.


There's no way in hell I'm giving up my Facebook author page, but thanks to the OP for posting the videos.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

MatthewAlanThyer said:


> This guy has put out another video which highlights another problem with Facebook.


Here's the video if you want to watch it in this thread.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> that video was eye-opening. Thanks for posting it. Makes me extremely glad I've never advertised my page.


Thanks. Same here.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Deena Ward said:


> Wow. Wonderful videos, excellent information. I had absolutely no idea.
> 
> Did I say wow?
> 
> Thanks so much for posting this.


No problem.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

bmcox said:


> Thought this might be interesting to those of you who have paid or plan to pay to promote your page on Facebook.


OK, now I get it. 

Thanks for posting this, bmcox.


----------



## beccaprice (Oct 1, 2011)

and if you're not careful, FB will set up a recurring charge on your paypal account.


----------



## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

Brilliant, so true. I've wasted far too much money trying to get Facebook posts in the past and there's very little engagement, just as the guy says.


----------



## Laurel Cremant (Dec 10, 2013)

That is a really interesting video! I've used Facebook advertising for my books, and once to boost my page, but later realized that I got better engagement during a Facebook Virtual release party. During those readers were happy to share my page (or book's page) with others and my likes increased  in conjunction with engagement.

The video does make some very valid points. specifically it's a reminder that quality always wins out over quantity. Thanks for sharing


----------



## horse_girl (Apr 9, 2010)

This confirms many of my suspicions about why I get less engagement from my page where I paid to advertise vs the page that I've never advertised.

Thank you for sharing this!


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

ThePete said:


> This guy is dead on the money, of course, but that doesn't mean using FB in a marketing role is worthless. This is where the niche groups, rather than fan pages, come in handy. Always double tap any promotional posts with an admin though.


But, see, niche groups are formed from liking pages. And if most of the likes are fake, that means most of the clickers in the niche groups are worse than useless, too.


----------



## Cherise (May 13, 2012)

Ditto with targeting ads with keywords. Those keywords represent pages that the user liked. But if click farms are going around liking millions of pages at random, chances are your keywords are also polluted with empty click farm users.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

My FB author page works well. I get good engagement (up to about 85%, but more typically around 25%). I don't advertise, and after seeing all the recent posts about Facebook ads, I won't be advertising anytime soon!

It's still a great marketing tool for me, but thanks for the heads-up about the ads.


----------



## GearPress Steve (Feb 4, 2012)

It really depends on what sort of advertising you do on Facebook. Some FB advertising works, a lot of FB advertising does not. I will never do sidebar advertising again, and I will never use the "promote a post" advertising again.


----------



## Mike_Author (Oct 19, 2013)

Completely agree.

I am still amazed at the nerve of FB to selectively hide posts/announcements unless you "boost".  What other platform would even consider doing that? 

That whole "boost" thing seems to have been implemented without much hoo ha from users.

I never use FB for promoting now.

BTW, back when I was using FB, they sent me a message for free advertising credits so I gave it a try.  That particular book didn't sell a single copy during or just after the promo.  Useless.


----------



## Tracy Falbe (Jul 4, 2010)

In December I got a coupon to try FB ads, so I did. As an experiment I used their default ad settings. Although the charges were using the coupon credit, the cost per impressions and clicks was shockingly high. Oh yeah, and I got no concrete results. I can at least thank FB for sending me a coupon so I could find out how bad the ads were without actually using my own money. 

And yes, since the whole we're not going to show your posts to anyone who liked your page thing started, FB has become completely useless to me. I just fool around with friends there now and then, but it's officially off my updated 2014 marketing plan. It's nice to see this validation of my opinion.


----------



## ChrisWard (Mar 10, 2012)

When I've used Facebook I always select only the countries where I'm expecting to sell the books, but my engagement levels are probably only one in twenty who like it. Pretty much a waste of time. I have 640 likes, and probably less than 30 of those people regularly engage. Beware competition clickers too - I've signed up for a couple of giveaways and things where the entry was to like a Facebook page. I gained 70 alone from one on Kindle Book Review. Not one of those people has ever come back. I think to a certain extent its useful to have a decent number of likes to look popular, but unless they've come to you independently or through a link in the back of one of your books, they're of no real use.


----------



## cwashburn (May 20, 2013)

I never signed up for facebook (shock, horror).  There was a short period when I wondered if I was making a mistake but when I see stuff like this and watch the video it makes me feel pleased about my decision.


----------



## John Daulton (Feb 28, 2012)

A huge part of the reason those experiments (the video and the BBC article) failed as miserably as they did is because they intentionally made terrible campaigns for the purpose of making them fail. You can't get genuine engagement with content that is disingenuous. 

Facebook is a tool, and like any other, you have to know how to work it, and you have to work in a way that best fits what you are selling and who you are as a person and a brand. For me, I'm not particularly good at being engaging (or "borrowing" engaging content from others) or coming up with clever memey things, so my engagement on day-to-day posts has never been great. However, having access to demographically targeted people in some percentage is better than having only to completely unqualified demographic lists to market to, and it's definitely better than having access to no one. Used as the mouth of a sales funnel, meant to direct people toward new releases or a mailing list, the ads can be useful. Paid posts are even better, especially if you build your likes organically through links in your books or on your blog. Yes, he was right in the video: you pay twice, once to get the "fans" and again to reach them through Promoted Posts. But so what. You buy entrance into the marketing pool, and then you pay a small cost to send out the advertisements. It's an old model (Direct mail lists and email lists do similarly and have for years ... you buy access to the list, and you still have to pay for the printing and postage of the postcards ... etc.).

There are only so many Bookbub types sites out there, and some people can't get going through Bookbub for various reasons, approvals, reviews or whatever. I'm not saying go do it if you don't have any budget or time. I'm just saying, that video and that article don't give a particularly fair account. Not saying there is no value to what they are saying. You should use FB with your eyes wide open. But I am saying there is value to having access to demographically driven audiences, even if the reporting is wonky. It's still better than having nothing, and if you take it for what it is rather than what you'd like it to be, well, it's not as pointless as that video suggests. At least that's my opinion, and I intend to continue using FB as long as I can squeeze value from it.


----------



## rosclarke (Jul 12, 2013)

The only thing he gets wrong is how you pronounce 'Cellan-Jones'.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

Mike_Author said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> *I am still amazed at the nerve of FB to selectively hide posts/announcements unless you "boost". What other platform would even consider doing that?
> *
> ...


^^^Totally agree.


----------



## LeonardDHilleyII (May 23, 2011)

mastermute said:


> I have seen this too and my own theory was that if someone saw/liked the post on *my* page it gets a "Seen by", but if they see or like in the regular flow of posts it doesn't. Could that make sense?


^^^Exactly . . . I've thought the same for months. If you place ANY link in your post, it is hidden unless you "boost" it. Be wary.


----------



## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LeonardDHilleyII said:


> ^^^Exactly . . . I've thought the same for months. If you place ANY link in your post, it is hidden unless you "boost" it. Be wary.


See, not true for me. Not at all. My most-viewed post in the last 10 days was seen by more than 1000/1300 people, and it was a link, and I didn't boost it. I had another one viewed by 750 or so, and another one by 850 or so, both in the past week. One with a link, one not. So I think it depends. I use a Facebook author page. I'm scratching my head, because I can't be the only one?


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

My experience is that adding a link to the main text of the post will drastically limit it's reach, unless the people that actually see it share it or otherwise start engaging. Then the FB engines kick in, recognize it as good content, and will start showing it to more of your followers.

A trick is to put the link into the first comment.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Fascinating video, thank you for posting it. 

I went for Facebook's "Get more likes" ad. I was very targeted (country-wise, etc). I shut it down after around 300 likes because I saw a lot of that weird stuff going on. My engagement went way down and now my reach blows compared to what it was before. I'm not a savvy Facebook pager so I'm not sure if it's me or a combo of that and what was described in that ad. I ended up spending $72 before shutting it down, I just didn't think it was worth for the quality of likes/followers I was getting.

Another side-effect, for the first time I began to get spam comments for shady products right after that. So I think shady marketers like anything so they can then spam your Facebook page comment section with links. I was able to remove and report those posts and after about a week after I killed my like ad campaign the spam stopped.


----------



## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

Wow, that does clarify things a bit, doesn't it?

I think it was last year or the year before I did a paid page promotion run through Facebook that boosted my likes somewhat. I was already doing pretty well on my own (around 15K likes), but it did give me a boost. But I was short on cash at the time and ended it. Funny thing was, my likes keep rolling ever upwards even without the ads, so I never signed up for more promotions with Facebook since I didn't seem to need them.

After this video I went and checked my stats in a panic, but PHEW my countries are pretty good! I've got about 56,000 likes on my page, and at least 40K of that are from english speaking, developed countries. They may still be some iffy ones like in the vid, but I get good engagement WHEN I post good things. That's been my strategy these days. Post good stuff*. That's all that really matters on facebook. Post good stuff, people will see it, share it, more people will see it. I see direct correlations between posting something good, and sales popping up through my sales channels. Facebook is the only social media network I've ever seen that so clearly, and so I'm sticking with it despite the flaws. Even when I'm only hitting 1% of my fan base with a post, that's more people than any of my other social networks. 

*Although, what counts as "good" isn't the most brilliant stuff ever, just share-able fun images and memes and things that FB folk like. My most successful post has had almost 16K shares (Huge thanks to Liliana Hart for that idea from The Naked Truth of Self Publishing!)


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Rosalind James said:


> See, not true for me. Not at all. My most-viewed post in the last 10 days was seen by more than 1000/1300 people, and it was a link, and I didn't boost it. I had another one viewed by 750 or so, and another one by 850 or so, both in the past week. One with a link, one not. So I think it depends. I use a Facebook author page. I'm scratching my head, because I can't be the only one?


You're not the only one. 

If my Facebook author page wasn't working for me, I'd kick it to the curb.

But it is working for me. So I'd be an idiot to give it up.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Rosalind James said:


> My FB author page works well. I get good engagement (up to about 85%, but more typically around 25%). I don't advertise, and after seeing all the recent posts about Facebook ads, I won't be advertising anytime soon!
> 
> It's still a great marketing tool for me, but thanks for the heads-up about the ads.


That's probably pretty smart, at least for now. My numbers went down after I paid Facebook for ads. It's still worth it for me to stay on there, but not paying FB anymore for the results I've experienced. (likes, I might still pay to boost or to run an ad to build my mailing list, but not likes as per the video, I won't do that again).


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks,

I've merged two similar threads.  Sorry for any confusion.

Betsy


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Folks,
> 
> I've merged two similar threads. Sorry for any confusion.
> 
> Betsy


Thanks, Betsy!


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Rosalind James said:


> See, not true for me. Not at all. My most-viewed post in the last 10 days was seen by more than 1000/1300 people, and it was a link, and I didn't boost it. I had another one viewed by 750 or so, and another one by 850 or so, both in the past week. One with a link, one not. So I think it depends. I use a Facebook author page. I'm scratching my head, because I can't be the only one?


You're definitely not the only one. Facebook has always worked well for me, and it still does.

A few hours ago, I posted a little joke about my wife. It got 70+ likes, 20 comments, and was seen by 700+. (I have 1674 fans as of tonight.)

Yesterday, I posted my freebie on my FB page and asked people to like/share to help spread the word. That post got 80 likes, 27 shares and 14 comments. I spent five bucks to promote it and it ended up going out to about 1400 people. That was all the promoting I did (literally) and that freebie (a short story, no less) went to #45 on the free list and #1 in three different cats.

I do put a fair amount of effort into my FB page, mostly because I enjoy it. I love chatting with readers about things and they often give me great feedback on how they found me, how they read, what they think of different price points, etc. I did a book club last week that was a blast that we're going to do every other month now.

Like most everything, I think you get out what you put in. Caveat: I don't do a lot of paid promoting or ads - probably $30 per month or so. I'm mostly talking about organic interaction.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Joliedupre said:


> You're not the only one.
> 
> If my Facebook author page wasn't working for me, I'd kick it to the curb.
> 
> But it is working for me. So I'd be an idiot to give it up.


Obviously don't give it up if its working. No one is proposing drop kicking FB just their PAID advertising. Do you use paid advertising, or are your likes and users real?


----------



## CarlSinclair (Apr 7, 2013)

This post is very interesting for indies who are looking to build a FB page via promotion. I know I've started to test the water and had a similar response.

People need to see this.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Facebook ads work if they are done properly. I would never run a facebook ad in the manner shown in either of the posted videos.

The way around the link farms is to target your ads at custom audiences that are made up of specific facebook users. There are a variety of ways of doing this some automated, some manual. Here's one manual method...

1. Use graph search to come up with a list of potential targets. For instance, people who like urban fantasy and who like Joseph Nassise. That gets you a list of about 1500 people. 
2. Take each individual user and note their user name. For instance, my personal page user name is JosephMNassise. Make a list of all the names that came up as a result of your search.
3. Using the phrase http://graph.facebook.com/username plug those names into the url bar
4. You will get a response that looks like this...

"id": "100004625105494",
"name": "Joe Nassise",
"first_name": "Joe",
"last_name": "Nassise",
"link": "http://www.facebook.com/JosephMNassise",
"gender": "male",
"locale": "en_US",
"username": "JosephMNassise"

This shows you my Facebook UID (user ID), where I am located, and my gender. You can then strip out the UID for targeting purposes.

5. Make a list of all your targeted users, one per line, and save that as a csv file.
6. When creating your ad, upload the csv file as a custom audience and your ad will ONLY be shown to the people on that list.

(Yes, there are various tools out there - some working within the Facebook API, some not so much - that can automate all of this for you.) This will not only increase your engagement with the ad but will also ensure that your ad is going to people who will have an interest in what you are offering. It will also drastically reduce your cost per clicks, as facebook gives preference to custom audiences.


----------



## Silly Writer (Jul 15, 2013)

Rosalind James said:


> See, not true for me. Not at all. My most-viewed post in the last 10 days was seen by more than 1000/1300 people, and it was a link, and I didn't boost it. I had another one viewed by 750 or so, and another one by 850 or so, both in the past week. One with a link, one not. So I think it depends. I use a Facebook author page. I'm scratching my head, because I can't be the only one?


In October I posted a Selfie of myself (taken at that moment), outing myself for being an unwed teenager who gave my baby up for adoption. I asked for help in spreading the word. (Share/like/comment), and at that time I only had less than 200 "Likes" to start with. That post was seen by 80,000 people, shared 984 times, and had 300(?) comments. With no boost. On my Author page. I then opened a new page, copying the post to it: "birth Mother searching for..." And had nearly as many posts seen. It was incredible.

Eta: I found him, too!


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Facebook ads work if they are done properly. I would never run a facebook ad in the manner shown in either of the posted videos.
> 
> The way around the link farms is to target your ads at custom audiences that are made up of specific facebook users. There are a variety of ways of doing this some automated, some manual. Here's one manual method...
> 
> ...


Maybe I am just stupid, but HOW do you search for this: People who like military science fiction and David Weber? Using search does nothing for me. I'm doing it all wrong, I must be.


----------



## Istvan Szabo Ifj. (Dec 13, 2013)

Facebook's Advertisement is a Scam. Well, well, well. This is what I told back in November / December, yet many have simply ridiculed me. Well, it seems I was right. Again.  But seriously, do not advertise on Facebook. Instead of using them, try to make a hack-around and drive all your traffic to your website. Create a subscription and an RSS feed there, so you'll be able to reach your present and future audience anytime, without any interruption. Facebook simply cut you from your fanbase, so they can force you to pay for their scam services (They did this with my own back in December when I was able to reach 7-14 out of the 8000+ per post and when I paid for promotion, they've shown my posts to bots instead of real people.). So do not rely on them and do not pay anything to them as even when you're using their overhyped junk promo services, as so as I mentioned, they're showing your advertisement to bots instead of real people (And you can see this from the visitor activity.). Do not waste your time and money on Facebook, but rely on your own website.

P.S.: You may report their Scam activity to the F.B.I., just as I already did, as asking for money for a service where they don't deliver at all, but giving false data in return is a scam and fraud according to Federal Law.


----------



## Ernie Lindsey (Jul 6, 2010)

Here's an excellent counterargument to the video and the article. I trust this guy's opinion and use his site for just about everything related to Facebook and their ad system.

http://www.jonloomer.com/2014/02/11/facebook-fraud-response/

The short version is, learn to use tools like Power Editor and Conversion Tracking, don't use the practically useless "Boost Post" to advertise, and don't target countries known for click farms when seeking out likes.

There's a ton of great info on his site and I encourage you to browse around.


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

markecooper said:


> Obviously don't give it up if its working. No one is proposing drop kicking FB just their PAID advertising. Do you use paid advertising, or are your likes and users real?


I've used FB advertising in the past. Based on the information in the video, I'm going to guess that *some* of my likes aren't "real." HOWEVER, I have enough real likes and real ENGAGEMENT that it doesn't matter. 

Will I ever use FB advertising again? No. So thanks, again, to the OP for posting the information. 

(UPDATE: Ernie and Joseph provided information, later in this thread, that changes my opinion. FB advertising can be good if done right.)


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Shawn Inmon said:


> I do put a fair amount of effort into my FB page, mostly because I enjoy it. I love chatting with readers about things and they often give me great feedback on how they found me, how they read, what they think of different price points, etc.


Yeah, I believe my Facebook fan page has good engagement because *I* interact with my peeps. I respond to EVERY comment I receive with either a "like" or a comment of my own. People don't like to be ignored, and I don't ignore my peeps.

So many authors blather on and on about their books, but they never respond to their fans or ask questions about their fans' lives. I made a promise to myself that no matter how big my Facebook fan page gets, I will never be that way.


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Jnassise said:


> Facebook ads work if they are done properly. I would never run a facebook ad in the manner shown in either of the posted videos.
> 
> The way around the link farms is to target your ads at custom audiences that are made up of specific facebook users. There are a variety of ways of doing this some automated, some manual. Here's one manual method...
> 
> ...


Brilliant! Thank you!


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

markecooper said:


> Maybe I am just stupid, but HOW do you search for this: People who like military science fiction and David Weber? Using search does nothing for me. I'm doing it all wrong, I must be.


Mark - start from a personal page (graph search is not available from a fan page) and just type "People who like David Weber and military science fiction" into the search bar without the quotes...

Got to say its not the best search though. Will return you less than 100 results. Searching people who like David weber will get you more than 12000 results and people who like military science fiction will get you 1100 results, but the two are not often paired together on facebook apparently.

-Joe


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

L.L. Akers said:


> In October I posted a Selfie of myself (taken at that moment), outing myself for being an unwed teenager who gave my baby up for adoption. I asked for help in spreading the word. (Share/like/comment), and at that time I only had less than 200 "Likes" to start with. That post was seen by 80,000 people, shared 984 times, and had 300(?) comments. With no boost. On my Author page. I then opened a new page, copying the post to it: "birth Mother searching for..." And had nearly as many posts seen. It was incredible.
> 
> Eta: I found him, too!


Fantastic!!


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Ernie Lindsey said:


> Here's an excellent counterargument to the video and the article. I trust this guy's opinion and use his site for just about everything related to Facebook and their ad system.
> 
> http://www.jonloomer.com/2014/02/11/facebook-fraud-response/
> 
> ...


Ernie and Joseph,

Thank you so much for the information you've posted.

Ernie, I look forward to investigating that link later today.

Jolie


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Mark - start from a personal page (graph search is not available from a fan page) and just type "People who like David Weber and military science fiction" into the search bar without the quotes...
> 
> Got to say its not the best search though. Will return you less than 100 results. Searching people who like David weber will get you more than 12000 results and people who like military science fiction will get you 1100 results, but the two are not often paired together on facebook apparently.
> 
> -Joe


Thanks mate. I was trying from my own fan page. FB is really screwed up with the way they run pages differently. I actually loath it, I really do. I stayed well clear of FB until recently. But I thought I should try to pull out all the stops now this is my livelihood. Really starting to regret it to be honest.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Mark - because of the way Facebook limits what each type of page can do, you should actually have both a personal profile and a fan page dedicated to your brand or to your series.  Some people think having both dilutes your impact on Facebook but I disagree.  

As for advertising, my approach is simple:

1) Never use the boost post or basic targeting that Facebook provides as there is very little return

2) Always use custom audiences to target highly specific groups - usually a single ad per individual audience instead of lumping them all together so that I can track what works and what does not

3) Split test the ads at the start (again, to see what copy or image has the best impact) and then pause or cancel the ads that aren't getting the results I want.  This allows my money to go farther and to deliver the results I am seeking.

4) Always use manually cost per click and do not allow auto bidding for optimization - the later is a quick way to burn through your investment.

5) Never just set an ad and forget it.  See #3 above.  Check it in the first ten-fifteen minutes to be sure it is being shown, then again after it hits about 500 views to adjust the cost per click (CPC).  This will usually allow you to get the CPC into the 2-5 cent range, rather than the 50 cents or higher the "optimized" method will utilize.

6) Last but not least, note that the average click thru rate (CTR) for ads in the publishing industry is 0.79 percent. If you are getting higher than 1% you are doing well.  Higher than 2% and you are doing great.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Really helpful, detailed information, Joseph. Thank you for taking the time to lay it out. I was completely clueless about this and I'm excited to give it a try.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

My pleasure, Shawn.  I would echo Ernie's recommendation from earlier in the thread to check out what Jon Loomer has to say about Facebook.  He is one of the sources that I listen to and follow as well and he has yet to steer me wrong.

-J


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Mark - because of the way Facebook limits what each type of page can do, you should actually have both a personal profile and a fan page dedicated to your brand or to your series. Some people think having both dilutes your impact on Facebook but I disagree.
> 
> As for advertising, my approach is simple:
> 
> ...


I don't believe this lol. It's enough to make a statue cry, it really is. David Weber and other authors who I would like to emulate as the leaders in my genre are not on FB. There are fan pages for them, but not the actual authors. Also the only David Weber who IS on FB is just a guy.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

markecooper said:


> I don't believe this lol. It's enough to make a statue cry, it really is. David Weber and other authors who I would like to emulate as the leaders in my genre are not on FB. There are fan pages for them, but not the actual authors. Also the only David Weber who IS on FB is just a guy.


Not too unusual, but a good reason why you should only use Facebook ads targeted at custom audiences. Targeting those who have expressly noted they like a particular author is one way of hitting the proper audience.

Here's another way of targeting that works pretty well but is a little more user friendly than building a custom audience from scratch.

1) Pick a few authors in your genre that you know are popular. 
2) When creating your ad, put their name into the box next to Interests. Using your earlier example, putting David Weber into the box will get you an audience of 26,278 people. My genre is urban fantasy so I might put in Jim Butcher's Dresden Files which gives me an audience of just over 14,000 people or maybe Patricia Briggs who gives me an audience of just over 65,000 people.
3) Add in filters for specific countries or specific languages to narrow your audience down further if you so desire. I usually target about 10K people with my ads if possible - some Facebook consultants advocate using groups of 200K people. You have to decide what works best for you. (Because I highly target my ads, I like smaller sample sizes so that the ad gets seen with more frequency among the same group.)

Don't use facebook ads like it was still 2012 (which was my problem with the earlier videos). Use the tools that are now available and be smart about what you are doing, just like any other kind of promotion.


----------



## mrv01d (Apr 4, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Mark - start from a personal page (graph search is not available from a fan page) and just type "People who like David Weber and military science fiction" into the search bar without the quotes...
> 
> Got to say its not the best search though. Will return you less than 100 results. Searching people who like David weber will get you more than 12000 results and people who like military science fiction will get you 1100 results, but the two are not often paired together on facebook apparently.
> 
> -Joe


Thank you! Your posts were awesome!


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

mrv01d said:


> Thank you! Your posts were awesome!


Glad that they were helpful!

-J


----------



## CDForness (Nov 25, 2013)

Jnassise said:


> Not too unusual, but a good reason why you should only use Facebook ads targeted at custom audiences. Targeting those who have expressly noted they like a particular author is one way of hitting the proper audience.
> 
> Here's another way of targeting that works pretty well but is a little more user friendly than building a custom audience from scratch.
> 
> ...


All of this has been so darn helpful, thank you. I've been agonizing over what I should concentrate on with marketing as I am just launching my author career. It's easy to get lost in all the platforms. I just bought Heretic as a way of saying Thanks.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Some stats (I know I said I wouldn't share anymore, but this isn't sales, just likes):

I have run boosted posts and very targeted campaigns at FB.

I have 1,323 friends.

I have 660 likes on my author page.

Only 168 friends "like" my author page http://www.facebook.com/page/lisagracebooks

I can not track approx. 400 of the likes; however, FB does say 615 of my 660 are from the US.

I'd like to know who the other 400 are. I'm going to run a search on my email and see if I can track down whether they are real people who chat about their lives or not.


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

I completed reading Jon Loomer's blog post that Ernie provided. It was incredibly helpful, and I will continue to read Loomer's posts. I followed him on Twitter; I liked his Facebook page, and I've subscribed to his blog.

This is why I love WC at KBoards. I'm not here to argue with authors or to go back and forth. I'm here to learn everything I can to be a successful indie author! 

_"If you still use Facebook ads as if it's 2012, you deserve the results you get."_ - Jon Loomer
http://www.jonloomer.com/2014/02/11/facebook-fraud-response/


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Not too unusual, but a good reason why you should only use Facebook ads targeted at custom audiences. Targeting those who have expressly noted they like a particular author is one way of hitting the proper audience.
> 
> Here's another way of targeting that works pretty well but is a little more user friendly than building a custom audience from scratch.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

The video clip in the OP is a very clever troll.  No-one in their right mind would use FB advertising in that way.  The best troll is always a half-truth.  Now it's damaging as there are people stomping of from this thread determined to never use FB ads again. 

It's the best troll I've seen for a couple of weeks.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

theblether said:


> The video clip in the OP is a very clever troll. No-one in their right mind would use FB advertising in that way. The best troll is always a half-truth. Now it's damaging as there are people stomping of from this thread determined to never use FB ads again.
> 
> It's the best troll I've seen for a couple of weeks.


I personally don't think it is. The results he got match my experience. I don't call anyone a troll without knowing its true. I DO know what my FB results show.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Ernie Lindsey said:


> Here's an excellent counterargument to the video and the article. I trust this guy's opinion and use his site for just about everything related to Facebook and their ad system.
> 
> http://www.jonloomer.com/2014/02/11/facebook-fraud-response/
> 
> ...


Hi Ernie,

Thanks a lot for that video. I'm one of those suckers that trusted Facebook. I boosted posts. And I went for their "Get more likes" ad. I did target for example readers of thrillers, and a few other targets. I also targeted countries not in the Link Farm belt (my targets: USA, Canada, UK, a few other EU countries, a few countries in Latin America since that is where my books take place).

I wasn't happy with the Likes results. I'm now seeing that I was naive and I need to learn a lot more about paying Facebook for ads. Not just taking them at their word (boost your post, get more likes). So although that response video was excellent, the heart of the original video is a very important message that needs to get out. The Facebook ad defaults are even more prone for taking advantage of the uninformed. If you just go with their default settings you'll lose a bundle for crap results.

Anyway, I liked the video you posted, but I don't think it diminished what was said in the original video since that is how Facebook has setup their business. It seems a bit predatory since they make it seem so simple when it isn't. The things discussed in the response video isn't rocket science, but it's a bit more complicated than the way Facebook misrepresents what boosting and getting more likes can do for you (without delving into the advance features).


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

markecooper said:


> I personally don't think it is. The results he got match my experience. I don't call anyone a troll without knowing its true. I DO know what my FB results show.


It was a troll by the power of omission. If he had stood in front of any person with knowledge of FB advertising he'd have been called out in a heartbeat.

I advertise on FB every single day in life and get stunning, quite unbelievable results. One advert I did last week returned 1200 click through's on a £5.00 investment, I couldn't believe it.......and here we have this guy who obviously knows his way around FB producing this video. No-one in their right mind with knowledge of FB advertising would set up their ad in that fashion.

So, I know it's true.....he's trolling, and it's worked. He's pushed the troll maxim to the limit......

The best troll is a half-truth.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

theblether said:


> It was a troll by the power of omission. If he had stood in front of any person with knowledge of FB advertising he'd have been called out in a heartbeat.


Gotta agreed. I found his smugness particularly unappealing as I sat there going "No", "No", "That's not how its done", etc throughout the entire video. His "facts" are correct, but presented without the rest of the information that would be truly helpful to people.

-J


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Jnassise said:


> Gotta agreed. I found his smugness particularly unappealing as I sat there going "No", "No", "That's not how its done", etc throughout the entire video. His "facts" are correct, but presented without the rest of the information that would be truly helpful to people.
> 
> -J


Correct, and it's a joke. I'm a bit exercised about it as there are good people on this thread being put off the idea of FB advertising as a result of that vid where he clearly, and deliberately, omitted key information. Appalling.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

theblether said:


> It was a troll by the power of omission. If he had stood in front of any person with knowledge of FB advertising he'd have been called out in a heartbeat.
> 
> I advertise on FB every single day in life and get stunning, quite unbelievable results. One advert I did last week returned 1200 click through's on a £5.00 investment, I couldn't believe it.......and here we have this guy who obviously knows his way around FB producing this video. No-one in their right mind with knowledge of FB advertising would set up their ad in that fashion.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be combative, truly I'm not. What were the results of your 1200 click through? Im not doubting your $5 was used up and you got clicks. My £30 was also used up with clicks, but what were they worth? Nothing. I literally gave FB that 30 and have nothing to show for it at all. Do you? I know you can buy clicks, but can you buy real useful leads that supply worthwhile likes from people who will be engaged with your content, or actual sales verified with some kind of tracking?

This guy in the video isn't saying you won't get clicks or likes. He is saying you'll get worthless ones that actually inhibit your real fans from seeing your stuff.

I'm no expert in any of this stuff, but my numbers seem to match what he showed. Maybe I am just too ignorant of FB to understand. Joseph is helping me with that and I have set up another test advert using his advice. I'm not opposed to proving the video wrong, its just that right now it seems to be right.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Mark (and everyone else) - one of the problems with Facebook advertising for books is that it is actually a two-fold process.  Step one is using the Facebook ad to drive the potential reader to your product page.  Step two - entirely separate from the ad itself - is the reader deciding whether or not to purchase your book based on your product page.  

You could use the advertising to great effect, but not make many sales if your product page turns the potential reader off.  

The advertising is designed to drive the reader to the product - and it oftens works as it should - but that second step can dilute all the hard work of the ad itself.

(I hope I'm explaining that clearly.)

Let's look at it from another perspective - I figured out how to code "Buy with 1-Click" links into the back of my ebooks earlier this year.  I used ad copy to promote the next book in the series, specifically stated that the reader would be buying the book immediately upon clicking the link, and then congratulated myself on a job well done, thinking I had just eliminated a useless step in the promotion process.  If they like the ad for the book, why wouldn't they want to buy it right away, I thought.

You can guess what happened.  Got a bunch of complaints that I didn't give the reader a "choice" to buy the book, I just downloaded it right to their kindle.  Must have been through magic or something.

My point is that while the reader doesn't mind being driven by advertising to the product, that in itself does not constitute their decision to buy the product.  My "buy with 1 click" experiment failed for that very reason and Facebook ads could be both very productive in what they are designed to do (drive the customer to the product) but not actually deliver the sale for reasons totally unrelated to the ad as a result.

I agree with the earlier comment that Facebook is set up to be, in some sense, predatory because they don't tell you all the finer details up front.  You have to work to gain that knowledge - either through research or experimentation.  Often a bit of both.  Then again, there are very few companies that I consider to be non-predatory.  Buyer beware.


----------



## B. Justin Shier (Apr 1, 2011)

Much *woosh* in this thread. The video is not targeted at savvy social media marketers. It is targeted at small business owners who are just getting their feet wet. The moral of the story is not that Facebook pages are useless. The moral of the story is not that Facebook advertising is useless. The moral of the story is that you must approach Facebook ads with caution because Facebook's revenue is tied into selling both the cause and the solution to a serious problem: fake-likes. He is warning that fake likes are permanent. He is warning that fake likes can make future ad buys more expensive. This is important information to know.

I would point everyone to the text provided under the video (bold mine):



> Evidence Facebook's revenue is based on fake likes.
> 
> My first vid on the problem with Facebook: http://bit.ly/1dXudqY
> 
> ...


I follow Veritasium a7_8Gc_Llr8[/MEDIA]. He is doing quite well for himself; he has no need to troll. I find the presumptions about motives in this thread rather tasteless. Good on everyone who is attempting to educate, but this is yet another thread that makes me wonder about the direction of this board.

B.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

> I find the presumptions about motives in this thread rather tasteless. Good on everyone who is attempting to educate, but this is yet another thread that makes me wonder about the direction of this board


Oh please. I spent part of my morning countering the guy's disingenuous delivery and misguided facts in order to help my fellow board members and now I'm part of the general downfall of the direction of this board?

I have now been properly chastised and scolded.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Oh please. I spent part of my morning countering the guy's disingenuous delivery and misguided facts in order to help my fellow board members and now I'm part of the general downfall of the direction of this board?
> 
> I have now been properly chastised and scolded.


I appreciate your help Joseph, I've set up another test based upon lessons you've taught in THIS thread. I will see what's what and then decide. I admit I had ALREADY decided based upon my previous results, but I'm willing to test that decision. It's not as if I will stop using FB to post no matter what I learn. All it will mean is I'll stop paying FB to use it


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Good luck, Mark!

-J


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Joseph,

I've followed this thread closely, and with much appreciation. Thanks!

Nick


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

theblether said:


> The video clip in the OP is a very clever troll. No-one in their right mind would use FB advertising in that way. The best troll is always a half-truth. Now it's damaging as there are people stomping of from this thread determined to never use FB ads again.
> 
> It's the best troll I've seen for a couple of weeks.


Yeah, today I've seen folks on Facebook and on Twitter spreading the video, the OP posted, around. They're all convinced FB ads don't work.

Loomer's information makes a lot of sense to me, especially since I've had success with my Facebook page.


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

So I went to Jon Loomer's page and the first thing that popped up was an ad to sign up for a one on one meeting for $197 to discuss how to optimize your marketing on Facebook. I understand this is his business, social media marketing for Facebook, but he has a vested interest to oppose Mullen's findings.

Also, he misrepresents, omits information, or possibly seems not to understand what he just saw. Let's break it down.

At the beginning of the video Muller establishes an earlier experiment (2012) by Cellan-Jones demonstrating that the "Get More Likes" promotion on Facebook results in fake likes. The month after that report, Facebook said that they removed 83 mil fake accounts. (The fake accounts are identified by their prolific like behavior and low or nonexistent engagement.)

Muller states that they did not remove the fake likes resulting from these fake accounts. He knows this because he also bought likes through a coupon, before the removal of the accounts. And while his likes did go up, interaction with users did not go up, if anything it went down.

Then he uses data from "percentage of likes that *engaged this month*" (my emphasis) where percent engagement is shown along the bottom axis and amount of likes are shown as larger or smaller bubbles in vertical columns. The majority of likes on his page (80,000 likes or 75% of the likes) originate from countries with low engagement. Jon Loomer is stating that Muller is using information that is 2 years old, which he is not. He is using data about engagement from this month. Furthermore, Loomer leaves out a bit of critical information. Lowered engagement from these likes results in lowered visibility, and one of Facebook's answers to lowered visibility is to buy more ads. The most visible way to promote your post is through the "Get More Likes" ad button. However, this may result in lowered visibility.



> When you make a post Facebook distributes it to a small fraction of people who like your page just to gauge their reaction. If they engage with it by liking, commenting on it, or sharing then Facebook distributes the post to more people.


We all understand this function, but here's the kicker.



> If you somehow accumulate fake likes, Facebook's initial distribution goes out to fewer real fans, and therefore, it perceives less engagement, and so consequently you reach a smaller amount of people. That's how a rising number of fans can result in a drop in engagement."


Engagement is one metric by which marketers determine if a campaign is successful. Engagement Rate=People who liked, commented, shared, or clicked on your post/People who saw your post. Since this is a recursive function, if a click farm worker likes a post and it doesn't get promoted to their friends (i.e. no one else clicks it) it lowers engagement. Therefore it doesn't matter if you have click-throughs if those click-throughs are dead ends.

The other problem is that click farm workers click pages at random so click farms can escape the Facebook algorithm to find fake accounts. This results in lowered engagement for all businesses using Facebook ads, regardless of whether you believe you are targeting users. He shows you large companies and personalities whose pages report that they are most popular where click farms are most prevalent. That doesn't mean that their ads don't reach you, it just means they have to pay more to make sure they do.

The Virtual Cat part of his experiment addresses the targeting of posts/ads to avoid fake accounts. Avoiding countries where there are not click farms does not avoid this problem. He demonstrates that users were clicking all kinds of random pages, by the hundreds and the thousands, and liking his page even though there was nothing on it.

Muller's video is not trolling. It is a verifiable experiment you can do. It also provides data beyond the Get More Likes widget issue.

Jon Loomer's article obfuscates lowered engagement recursive loop problem. In fact, he uses so called quotes in an attempt to discredit Muller. So called quotes are when we use quotes when we can write "so called." For example in his use of the word engagement:



> He also referred to a single post that he published on a Friday afternoon that reached only eight people and received no "engagement" (defined in this case, apparently, as comments, likes and shares).


We know that he means so called engagement by the parenthetical explanation he gives, specifically the word apparently. However, Facebook's definition of engagement rate is precisely that (Engagement Rate= Engagement Rate=People who liked, commented, shared, or clicked on your post/People who saw your post). Either he knows this metric and he is disparaging the proper use of it to protect his own position as a social media marketing expert, or he has no clue and is not a social media marketing expert.

Loomer is very effective at his job. And since Loomer is smart, he needs to take down Muller's position because it directly threatens his livelihood. He states that a large portion of his revenue growth is tied to ads he places on Facebook. Ads and content that target businesses and social media marketers on how to advertise on Facebook. Let me say there is nothing wrong with this, I only point this out because of the position of interest he holds. But as a critical reader I can't take him at his word.

If he only said that, yes Get More Likes is highly ineffective and a waste of money (which he does say by the way) and only explained why Power Editor is the tool you should use, then maybe I could take his rebuttal seriously. Furthermore, what he does say (at the end) is some people who have undergone his course have not been successful, but they still like his page so that must be okay. And yes there is a problem with Facebook ads, but it's your fault if you don't understand how to use them. From this statement I infer that he wants me to pay for his services so I can learn how to be better at advertising on Facebook, but if I fail then it's not his fault because I didn't put in the effort.

Here's the other issue that is not talked about. The Get More Likes and Boost Post buttons are the easiest, most convenient ways to create a promotion. It is not just random that Facebook features these widgets so prominently. They are a business that wants to make money. And while there are refined tools they offer (which still suffer from the same problems) these tools have to be searched for and understood. Not hard to use or find I grant, but still not the first thing Facebook wants you to use. The Get More Likes tool is a problem and it creates problems for other parts of the ad ecosystem.

From the Mashable article on this video:



> Facebook marketing has improved, according to Jeff Selig, CMO of social media marketing firm BostonMediaDomain, but the like button in particular is almost useless. Marketing on Facebook is now about curating a following as opposed to just building numbers.
> 
> "We gave up on [likes] ages ago," Selig said. "If you take likes out of the equation and you are actually selling something, I think you're better off. I think the days of the popularity contest are over."
> 
> Facebook recently admitted in a regulatory filing that as much as 11.2% of its accounts are fake, but did not publish any numbers about how many likes may be fraudulent.


Curating a following by generating content that is interesting, useful, and unique is what you should do whatever social media platform you use. The fact that over 10% of Facebook's accounts are fake makes the job of reaching an audience through the use of their ad tools harder and possibly fruitless.

I am not saying that your individual experiences and successes are wrong or poorly perceived. I am saying that Muller is pointing out a problem with the ad ecosystem that is there. If you are finding success through Facebook, great, continue to do so. But the phenomenological experience does not exclude the existence of a problem.


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Alan Petersen said:


> Hi Ernie,
> 
> Thanks a lot for that video. I'm one of those suckers that trusted Facebook. I boosted posts. And I went for their "Get more likes" ad. I did target for example readers of thrillers, and a few other targets. I also targeted countries not in the Link Farm belt (my targets: USA, Canada, UK, a few other EU countries, a few countries in Latin America since that is where my books take place).
> 
> ...


Loomer doesn't discount the video the OP posted. However, he points out that 2012 information is old, and he lets people know what they SHOULD be doing with Facebook ads, similar to what Joseph has posted in this thread.


----------



## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

Bernard, I'm happy I got BOTH arguments.  That helps me make a BETTER decision going forward with Facebook ads.  

BTW, I didn't sign-up for any of  Loomer's workshops.  (He hasn't wined and dined me nearly enough for that.)  I signed up for his blog posts to come to my email.  That's it.


----------



## Ernie Lindsey (Jul 6, 2010)

I've started this post and deleted everything I've written ten times.  *sigh*  Internet debates.

Look, I'm not some huge FB advocate. I know there are problems with the system. There are problems with every system. When it comes to Facebook advertising, educate yourself, choose wisely, don't chase cheap likes, and target your audience appropriately. Just like everyone has suggested. There are tools available now that weren't available in 2012. Spend some time with them. And yes, maybe Loomer has some ads on his site, but that's his business model. It's all a part of the funnel that we're all so familiar with.  =\  

FWIW, like a permafree novel that's 1st in the series, you can spend hours (days really) reading the free content on Loomer's site. There are a year's worth of posts that give you some worthwhile information on how to use Facebook properly, whether you spend money on ads or not.

Now, I must acknowledge and move on.  Good luck!


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Like Ernie, I'm not a huge Facebook advocate. I don't like some of their practices and I don't think you should leave your marketing solely on the platform.  Getting your visitors to your mailing list is key for long term success. That said, I do think it is an excellent tool, if used properly and with some intelligent forethought.  The "just say no" title to this thread is rather silly, from my view, because I know for a fact that Facebook ads not only work but work well when used appropriately.

I spent yesterday running an ad campaign for another novelist and with less than $50 we managed to deliver an almost 200% ROI on the ad for a $4.99 book, never mind the extra likes and views that the author's page was getting as a byproduct of that ad.  (Edited to correct a typo - it was two times the ad spend, not three)

The key to success with Facebook ads is no different that any other kind of ad - the right message needs to go to the right audience at the right time.  You have control over all three of those variables when it comes to advertising on Facebook.


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Joseph,
Would that author allow you to share some details of the campaign? Either here or by pm? I'm really curious to see how I can make this work--I've got an ad out right now, and I've tried lowering the cpc down to .05-.07 like you suggested, but the "ad reach" dropped off a cliff. 

I really appreciate you taking the time you've taken to post all this info.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Endi - can't share specifics as it was for a client, but I can speak in generalities...

First - make sure you are starting with a highly targeted custom audience. (I know I've said that before, but it is KEY to the success of the ad.) In this case our audience consisted of Facebook users who had liked and commented on several other highly successful genre-related author's pages. (So, if I were doing dystopian YA, I might target those who commented on the pages of the authors of the Hunger Games, the Divergent series, etc.)

Second - Manually bid for clicks, not impressions. Start with a high bid to get the ad going (I usually use $1) and after several hundred to a thousand views (NOT clicks, views) drop the price down. When the ad starts to slow, set the bid higher again to jump start views, then bring it back down again. Do this several times during the course of the ad.

Third - start with multiple ads in the same campaign with one variation between ads. (Change a line of text. Change the image. etc) Watch them for the first hour or two. Stop the ads that aren't performing and put your resources only behind those that are. (I usually start with 4-6 ads - all in the same campaign and therefore all pulling from the same daily max budget then eliminate them until I have a single well performing ad.)

Fourth - Start with a post and turn that post into an ad for increasing Page Post Engagement. You've got 7 lines of text before the "see more" link so use those wisely. Put the link where you want the reader to go high in the copy - 2nd line works best for me. (Also note that doing it this way will require the reader to make two clicks - once to call up the ad in the lightbox and once to actually click the link if they don't do that right away. There is a slight drawback to this, but adding 5 extra lines of text when the "clicks to website" variant (direct link) only gives you two lines of text compensates for this in my view.)

Fifth - the image you use is key. I almost never use my book cover. I take a larger horizontal image and use that for maximum visibility. Below is an example of an image I recently used for one of my urban fantasy ads. (This does come from the book's cover, but it isn't the cover itself, just the eye catching central image.)

Good luck - Joe


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jnassise said:


> Oh please. I spent part of my morning countering the guy's disingenuous delivery and misguided facts in order to help my fellow board members and now I'm part of the general downfall of the direction of this board?
> 
> I have now been properly chastised and scolded.


I imagine B. was turned off by theblether's repeated use of the word "troll," not the useful info you were providing, Jnassise. We're not allowed to call people trolls, here. We're supposed to assume that others' goals and motivations are above-board, even if their advice or conclusions strike us as very wrong.

I'm glad to have gotten the warning in the Veritasium video, and I'm glad to hear from Fb experts here on KB that there are ways to avoid these problems. The whole process of following this thread has been extremely helpful to me.


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Jnassise said:


> Endi - can't share specifics as it was for a client, but I can speak in generalities...
> 
> First - make sure you are starting with a highly targeted custom audience. (I know I've said that before, but it is KEY to the success of the ad.) In this case our audience consisted of Facebook users who had liked and commented on several other highly successful genre-related author's pages. (So, if I were doing dystopian YA, I might target those who commented on the pages of the authors of the Hunger Games, the Divergent series, etc.)
> 
> ...


Follow up questions:
When you target your audience (I read your csv-file comment from earlier in the thread), is there an automated way to do all that, or is it really a process of manually adding specific names to a csv file? Do you get such high ROIs when you use the regular ad-editor?

Regarding your fourth point, have you ever tried sending the people straight to a mailing list signup tab on your FB page? And then on that landing page, in addition to the ML signup, put some copy that explains the benefits of signup, like free stories, etc. I'm experimenting with this now, but I messed up on the cpc--which I'm fixing now based on your advice.

Thanks again,
Nick


----------



## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I imagine B. was turned off by theblether's repeated use of the word "troll," not the useful info you were providing, Jnassise. We're not allowed to call people trolls, here. We're supposed to assume that others' goals and motivations are above-board, even if their advice or conclusions strike us as very wrong.
> 
> I'm glad to have gotten the warning in the Veritasium video, and I'm glad to hear from Fb experts here on KB that there are ways to avoid these problems. The whole process of following this thread has been extremely helpful to me.


Point of order ma'am.

I didn't call anyone on this board a troll. I pointed out that this video was trolling by omission. We who have knowledge of FB advertising are appalled by that vid and the effect it has had on many people. The guy in the vid made no attempt whatsoever to mitigate his message. If he had even said "in my next vid I'll tell you how to get round this issue," I would have called it genius marketing. He didn't.

He left it hanging. He did it on purpose. What's the net effect? People turning their back on one of the greatest advertising mediums of the modern age. That's very damaging to the individuals that have taken this message on board. In our dreams years ago would we have had access to the control, budgeting, stats, keywording, city and country targeting, demographic targeting etc currently offered by FB. In our dreams could we have sat at home and paused ads, experimented with minimal budgets etc. The level of statistical analysis we now see is breathtaking, and it's all at our fingertips. For $5.00.

I lay you odds that many of you hadn't even spotted the troll. You fell for it head first.

Would you prefer that I hadn't pointed it out?


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

theblether said:


> Point of order ma'am.
> 
> I didn't call anyone on this board a troll. I pointed out that this video was trolling by omission. We who have knowledge of FB advertising are appalled by that vid and the effect it has had on many people. The guy in the vid made no attempt whatsoever to mitigate his message. If he had even said "in my next vid I'll tell you how to get round this issue," I would have called it genius marketing. He didn't.
> 
> ...


I appreciate hearing that people with Fb ad expertise think the video is totally wrong. But calling someone a troll is saying that their goal is to garner personal attention through sowing strife of the sort that destroys relationships and communities. It's a huge charge, and not one that should be made on the basis of one video. It takes a pattern of behavior to identify trollishness.

Calling another KB member a troll would obviously be worse, but labeling a resource several members have posted is also not nice in the least. It's also not necessary in order to explain the wrongness (in your view) of what the video says. And actually explaining why/how the video is wrong, as Jnassise has done, is a lot more productive, if your goal is to prevent KBers from "turning their backs on one of the greatest advertising mediums of the modern age."

But all that may be beside the point. My understanding is that the word is simply not to be used, here. The mods can correct me if the ban is not so absolute as I thought.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Like Ernie, I'm not a huge Facebook advocate. I don't like some of their practices and I don't think you should leave your marketing solely on the platform. Getting your visitors to your mailing list is key for long term success. That said, I do think it is an excellent tool, if used properly and with some intelligent forethought. The "just say no" title to this thread is rather silly, from my view, because I know for a fact that Facebook ads not only work but work well when used appropriately.
> 
> I spent yesterday running an ad campaign for another novelist and with less than $50 we managed to deliver an almost 200% ROI on the ad for a $4.99 book, never mind the extra likes and views that the author's page was getting as a byproduct of that ad. (Edited to correct a typo - it was two times the ad spend, not three)
> 
> The key to success with Facebook ads is no different that any other kind of ad - the right message needs to go to the right audience at the right time. You have control over all three of those variables when it comes to advertising on Facebook.


I think a lot of folks are talking about two different things. The OP video and my posts on this thread is about buying Likes (legitimately via Facebook) not Facebooks ads advertising a specific product like a book.

It sounds like you do some Facebook marketing consulting for other authors. What are your thoughts on buying Facebook Likes via traditional Facebook ads? Have you done that for yourself or clients? I thought I had targeted it well, and I received a lot of new likes, but paused it because like the video suggests, I wasn't convinced in the quality of the likes I was getting (even though I targeted down to country, my book's genre, etc.). That is why the original video connected with me since he used Facebook's "Get more Likes" ad feature.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

The video isn't actually WRONG per se, as it addresses how most people think FB is _supposed_ to work. Yes, FB ads _can_ work (as I said, I've used them myself with targeted methods as others have noted). But it is vital to understand that the majority of people online don't have a whole lot of net savvy. There is a built in assumption of transparency with FB ads that is completely unfounded. People are dismissing the video because the creator used a company that doesn't exist to manufacture 3000 fans. But people should be more concerned that a company that doesn't exist COULD generate 3000 fans and question why it was possible. It should call into question a whole lot of things for people (particularly when looking a book promotion sites that claim to have FB followings in the tens of thousands.) If you don't know where those followers came from, you are most likely flushing money down the toilet.

Indies tend to cast over-sized nets, trying to grab as many eyeballs as possible because "everyone" "might" be interested in their book. Because of that, they might not realize that certain countries are home to click farms. They may not understand how important it is to use detailed, targeted results for a FB ad instead of just "kindle." The video demonstrates how a lot of indies (and small businesses in general) actually use FB ads. They go for quantity over quality.

So if the video raises awareness of how broken FB actually is insofar as advertising, then it has done it's job. That awareness gets people asking questions. Asking questions leads to better marketing decisions. And if enough people start asking questions, maybe eventually FB is forced to readdress the concerns to make themselves relevant to advertisers again.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Bards and Sages (Julie) said:


> So if the video raises awareness of how broken FB actually is insofar as advertising, then it has done it's job. That awareness gets people asking questions. Asking questions leads to better marketing decisions. And if enough people start asking questions, maybe eventually FB is forced to readdress the concerns to make themselves relevant to advertisers again.


Good point.

~~~

I'm a person who thinks for herself. I don't tend to jump on bandwagons without sufficient information.

I know Facebook has been a terrific promotional tool for me. So when people say Facebook is a waste of time, I know they're wrong. (Often times the people who say that haven't made Facebook work for them, so they conclude it doesn't work for anyone else.)

As far as Facebook ads, I welcome information about FB ads from ALL points of view to help me with decisions. So thanks, everyone, for the information in this thread.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> Good point.
> 
> ~~~
> 
> ...


You haven't found that having a lot of fake likes has hurt your engagement/the number of people who see your posts?


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Some answers to Endi's questions. (Sorry, slipped out to go see Robocop.)

1) Yes, there are definitely tools to automate the process of creating custom audiences. Social Lead Chef, Bluepage Leads, Audiencemaker, Social Lead Fox, etc. Or you can hire a service (I'll actually be launching one soon) that will do it all for you.

2) No, I do not get such high ROIs when I use the regular ad editor because the audience tends to be much larger and more widespread. That said, the introduction of graph search has gone a fair way to bringing the two closer together. ROI is highly dependent on the book and ad in question - remember, just getting them to the amazon page is only HALF the battle. You still have to get them to buy the book. So you can have a great ad that drives traffic to the page and still a poor ROI.

3) Re: Sending them to a sign up page between ad and target... you mean like this? https://www.facebook.com/joseph.nassise/app_427089034046612 
I find the direct sales of the ebook actually work better if there isn't a squeeze page in between the ad and the Amazon page (or, really, wherever you might be targeting.) If I am selling my coaching or editing services, it is the exact opposite though, so it depends on what is being offered.

Hope that helps!

-Joe


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Monique said:


> You haven't found that having a lot of fake likes has hurt your engagement/the number of people who see your posts?


Who said I have a lot of fake likes I'm assuming I don't.

I'm perfectly happy with the number of people who see my posts. 

~~~

Joseph, thanks for your continued information!


----------



## Nick Endi Webb (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks, Joe 
Let us know when your service comes out--I'm interested.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Endi Webb said:


> Thanks, Joe
> Let us know when your service comes out--I'm interested.


My first indie novel isn't out until June, but I'm interested too, Joseph!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> Who said I have a lot of fake likes I'm assuming I don't.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy with the number of people who see my posts.


I'm just assuming some of them are based on the number of them, the most popular location and the level of engagement your posts get. I'm far from an expert, but those are all signs of having a lot of "fake" likes. I'm not trying in any way to imply you went out to get fake likes, just observing based on the info in this thread. I would think having that many "fake" likes would hurt engagement/viewership.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Monique said:


> I'm just assuming some of them are based on the number of them, the most popular location and the level of engagement your posts get. I'm far from an expert, but those are all signs of having a lot of "fake" likes. I'm not trying in any way to imply you went out to get fake likes, just observing based on the info in this thread. I would think having that many "fake" likes would hurt engagement/viewership.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but as I've already told you, I'm perfectly happy with my engagement. If there are fake likes, I'm not concerned.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Joliedupre said:


> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but as I've already told you, I'm perfectly happy with my engagement. If there are fake likes, I'm not concerned.


It appeared that your account was a good example of the potential conerns raised in the video. If you're okay with how it's working for you and don't want to discuss it, then that's that.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Monique said:


> It appeared that your account was a good example of the potential conerns raised in the video. If you're okay with how it's working for you and don't want to discuss it, then that's that.


I'm perfectly happy with my Facebook page, and I'm perfectly happy with how it's working for me.

~~~

I remain in this thread to get any further information from Joseph, Ernie, etc.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Here's a question for those in the Fb know. At the top, under your page's name, it says how many people are "talking about this":









Where does that number come from, exactly? Can you use it to determine how many of your likes are high quality?


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Becca,

Facebook's "People Talking About This" number is a metric that counts everytime a unique user does one of the following in a seven day period...

Likes your page
Posts on the page wall
Likes your post
Comments on the post
Shares the post
Answers a question
RSVP's to an event
Mentions the page in a post
Tags a photo from the post
Checks in
Shares a check in
Claims an offer

If I do more than one of those things within the same seven day period (like the post and then share the post, for instance) I will only be counted once toward the PTAT number.

-Joe


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Joe, 

And that number is based on the last 7 days of activity?

Also, do you know the best way to see if likes are fake or not?


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Jnassise said:


> Becca,
> 
> Facebook's "People Talking About This" number is a metric that counts everytime a unique user does one of the following in a seven day period...
> 
> ...


Wow, Joe, thanks! I wasn't expecting there to be such a crystal clear answer out there.

So, is there a generally agreed upon "good" ratio between likes and talking-about? Something you want to shoot for?

ETA: Though if liking the page is itself including in talking-about, then having a bunch of fake likes coming in would inflate your talking-about total. Maybe it's not a useful figure.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

Becca Mills said:


> So, is there a generally agreed upon "good" ratio between likes and talking-about? Something you want to shoot for?
> 
> ETA: Though if liking the page is itself including in talking-about, then having a bunch of fake likes coming in would inflate your talking-about total. Maybe it's not a useful figure.


As mentioned, it's a rolling seven day window, so someone "liking" your page would only boost your "Talking About" # for that seven days.

I'm not enough in the know as to whether there is a universally accepted % of "Talking About," but I try to keep mine between 30-50%. Honestly, it takes a lot of concentration and different strategies to keep it that high, but doing so does seem to insure that my posts get seen by a lot of people.

For instance, right now I have 1674 likes and 559 "Talking About This," so approximately 30%. I seem to have posts reach 500+ people every day and hit the lucky combination and hit 1,000+ once a week or so.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Monique - yes, rolling basis for the past seven days (including the current day I believe but might be wrong about that.)  No easy way of checking for fake likes, but you can get a sense by clicking the X People Like This link and then scrolling through the results.  Odd names, major brands, users posting in a different language- those tend to be more suspect.

Becca - No, there isn't a univeral metric I've heard.  One figure that gets bandied about is that it should be about 10% for pages with less than 100,000 likes and 5% for pages over, but I'm not sure where there originated or even if it is correct.  It will also vary greatly based on ads - if I run an ad today that gets 2000 likes, my PTAT number will jump pretty high for the next week, but might drop back down to realistic numbers the next week.

What you really want to look at to judge your own impact in this area is the Lifetime Talking About This metric (available on a post basis) that you can find my exporting your data our of insights and then digging into the colums to the right.

-Joe


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Shawn Inmon said:


> As mentioned, it's a rolling seven day window, so someone "liking" your page would only boost your "Talking About" # for that seven days.
> 
> I'm not enough in the know as to whether there is a universally accepted % of "Talking About," but I try to keep mine between 30-50%. Honestly, it takes a lot of concentration and different strategies to keep it that high, but doing so does seem to insure that my posts get seen by a lot of people.
> 
> For instance, right now I have 1674 likes and 559 "Talking About This," so approximately 30%. I seem to have posts reach 500+ people every day and hit the lucky combination and hit 1,000+ once a week or so.


Those results seem terrific, Shawn. Thank you for the information!

My number of views varies wildly. In the last week, the highest was 68 viewers and the lowest was 6 -- 42% to 4% of likes. Talking-about is at about 12% this week. (Caveat: so not a math person.) I probably should put more effort into figuring out which posts are effective instead of just more or less randomly posting things that catch my fancy.


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

Those are great numbers, Shawn!

Becca, you can look at the difference in the graph lines for likes and talking about to get an idea of what sort of non-like interaction you're getting and look at insights for your page to see the countries of your fans.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Monique said:


> Those are great numbers, Shawn!
> 
> Becca, you can look at the difference in the graph lines for likes and talking about to get an idea of what sort of non-like interaction you're getting and look at insights for your page to see the countries of your fans.


Thanks, Joe and Monique! Looks like my likers are almost entire in the U.S. (135/159). Wow ... there's so much info, here. I've done a bad job the last week: my engagement is down 30.4%. Fb is chastising me. 

I didn't realize I could export the insight data. The spreadsheet is a little overwhelming. Not sure what to do with all that data! I'll have to sit down and sort through the columns and think about it.

Boy, this is really helpful. Thanks, you everyone!


----------



## Monique (Jul 31, 2010)

There is a lot of data, isn't there? Now, if I only knew what to do with it!


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

It's an old trick, but one of the things I do to boost activity is ask questions people like to answer. In the last few months, I've asked "What kind of e-reader do you use, or do you prefer a book?" (that one got over 100 responses) "Do you put less value in a book because you got it for free?" (ditto) and "How steamy do you like your romances?" (I write innocent romances, so not surprisingly that was the bent of the answers) and that sort of thing. It's a double benefit: A little market research and boosting engagement.

Also, I've started doing a bi-monthly book club where I choose three books to vote for and the fans of the page ultimately pick the book. Then, every few days, I ask people how they're coming on reading the book and whether they are enjoying it. Finally, we do the book club, where I post new discussion points every ten minutes or so and everyone chimes in their thoughts. Each step of it does a lot to help increase engagement with my page, and other than my time (which I enjoy doing anyway) it's free.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Shawn Inmon said:


> It's an old trick, but one of the things I do to boost activity is ask questions people like to answer. In the last few months, I've asked "What kind of e-reader do you use, or do you prefer a book?" (that one got over 100 responses) "Do you put less value in a book because you got it for free?" (ditto) and "How steamy do you like your romances?"


Ohhh!  You sneaky...! That is a GREAT idea. I'm going to try something like that.


----------



## 60169 (May 18, 2012)

markecooper said:


> Ohhh!  You sneaky...! That is a GREAT idea. I'm going to try something like that.


I have no shame.


----------



## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Shawn Inmon said:


> It's an old trick, but one of the things I do to boost activity is ask questions people like to answer. In the last few months, I've asked "What kind of e-reader do you use, or do you prefer a book?" (that one got over 100 responses) "Do you put less value in a book because you got it for free?" (ditto) and "How steamy do you like your romances?" (I write innocent romances, so not surprisingly that was the bent of the answers) and that sort of thing. It's a double benefit: A little market research and boosting engagement.
> 
> Also, I've started doing a bi-monthly book club where I choose three books to vote for and the fans of the page ultimately pick the book. Then, every few days, I ask people how they're coming on reading the book and whether they are enjoying it. Finally, we do the book club, where I post new discussion points every ten minutes or so and everyone chimes in their thoughts. Each step of it does a lot to help increase engagement with my page, and other than my time (which I enjoy doing anyway) it's free.


Shawn, sounds like you should be writing a book on this stuff! These are great ideas -- thank you!

Monique, I think I need to hire out for data analysis ... so not my thing.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

Shawn Inmon said:


> It's an old trick, but one of the things I do to boost activity is ask questions people like to answer. In the last few months, I've asked "What kind of e-reader do you use, or do you prefer a book?" (that one got over 100 responses) "Do you put less value in a book because you got it for free?" (ditto) and "How steamy do you like your romances?" (I write innocent romances, so not surprisingly that was the bent of the answers) and that sort of thing. It's a double benefit: A little market research and boosting engagement.
> 
> Also, I've started doing a bi-monthly book club where I choose three books to vote for and the fans of the page ultimately pick the book. Then, every few days, I ask people how they're coming on reading the book and whether they are enjoying it. Finally, we do the book club, where I post new discussion points every ten minutes or so and everyone chimes in their thoughts. Each step of it does a lot to help increase engagement with my page, and other than my time (which I enjoy doing anyway) it's free.


Hey Shawn,

My fans love it when I ask questions.  I like your book club idea, also. I may or may not try that, but thanks for the idea!

Jolie


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Monique - yes, rolling basis for the past seven days (including the current day I believe but might be wrong about that.) No easy way of checking for fake likes, but you can get a sense by clicking the X People Like This link and then scrolling through the results. Odd names, major brands, users posting in a different language- those tend to be more suspect.
> 
> Becca - No, there isn't a univeral metric I've heard. One figure that gets bandied about is that it should be about 10% for pages with less than 100,000 likes and 5% for pages over, but I'm not sure where there originated or even if it is correct. It will also vary greatly based on ads - if I run an ad today that gets 2000 likes, my PTAT number will jump pretty high for the next week, but might drop back down to realistic numbers the next week.
> 
> ...


Hey Joe,

Thanks for the info. Not that you're obliged to answer, I just want to double check you didn't miss my question, since you're getting a lot of questions. 

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,178306.msg2515680.html#msg2515680

Basically, I was wondering what are your thoughts on buying Likes (legitimately via Facebook). It's the "Get More Likes" ads FB promotes. Different than buy a traditional ad promoting a specific product like a book.

Another question that popped in my head just now...

The last time I bought an ad for mailing list building I used a URL to a landing page with my sign up form, is that better than sending them to sign up form within my Facebook page?

I can integrate my email software (Aweber) with Facebook, so I wonder if it's best to send traffic to a sign up form within my FB page or to my a landing site on my website.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Hi Alan - sorry, I did miss it.

I've never used the "Get More Likes" ads so I can't say one way or another.  I think it is just as easy to get likes when running a regular ad, so why spend money twice (once to buy likes and once to do an ad) when you can combine the two?  Someone else might have a better answer though...

As for integrating a squeeze page, I think they work nicely but not in conjunction with an ad designed to sell a specific product.  I would run them as two ads - one to generate sign ups for your newsletter and one to sell the product.  

You can also use a fan gate - give away content for signing up for the newsletter but to get there they have to like your page...

-Joe


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Hi Alan - sorry, I did miss it.
> 
> I've never used the "Get More Likes" ads so I can't say one way or another. I think it is just as easy to get likes when running a regular ad, so why spend money twice (once to buy likes and once to do an ad) when you can combine the two? Someone else might have a better answer though...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info!


----------



## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks for sharing all the granular info, Joe and Ernie. Super cool and very helpful. And thanks to everyone else who's chimed in thus far.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

Always happy to share, Bernard!  

-Joe


----------



## Selina Fenech (Jul 20, 2011)

So much awesome information in this thread! I've never had a successful ad run on Facebook, but I'm sure I've been doing it wrong. Even when I was setting them up at the time, I remember sitting there in front of all those options and just knowing I wasn't doing it right! I'm going to try again soon with some of the info given here to do something specific (sell a specific book or product) and see how it goes.



Jnassise said:


> I've never used the "Get More Likes" ads so I can't say one way or another. I think it is just as easy to get likes when running a regular ad, so why spend money twice (once to buy likes and once to do an ad) when you can combine the two? Someone else might have a better answer though...


I've run Facebook "Get more likes" promotions in the past. The last one I did was back before September 2013, and helped me get from 12K likes to 16K likes over a few months. I cut it off at that point, and between Sept. 2013 and now I've gone from 16K likes to 56K likes through my own efforts (posting good, share-able content). I'm not sure if I'm just using facebook better now, or I've hit some kind of critical mass, or just had my ad settings wrong in the first place, but I seem to be doing better without using Facebook's paid page promos. I've checked my stats (god I wish I knew what to do with all that data too!), and my demographics and their engagement seem pretty good. That's pretty much all audience for my art though, not so much for the books, but art has proven much easier to go semi viral than any of my posts about my books have.


----------



## Mark E. Cooper (May 29, 2011)

Jnassise said:


> Always happy to share, Bernard!
> 
> -Joe


Just checked adverts manager this morning CTR is 4.22% but I don't see any actual sales. I'm not freaking out because its only been a day or so, AND to be honest I am still half-way convinced never to do this again, but I do WANT to test it properly. I have no idea if 4.22 is good bad or indifferent, but I know from targeting and keeping that number low and aimed like a missile at exactly the right people it should be a fair test for my purposes.


----------



## Adam Poe (Apr 2, 2012)

Luckily I haven't paid for any FB advertising ... and now I definitely never will.


----------



## Jnassise (Mar 22, 2010)

A CTR of 4.22% is an excellent rate, Mark!  As I said earlier though, you can have a terrific click thru rate - meaning the ad was well-designed - but still not sell many books because it isn't the ad that actual does the second part.  That's the job of your product page with its cover, sample, page copy, etc.


----------



## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

The key is to not buy likes. You should be focusing on driving sales/leads/signups/downloads, etc...

Likes are worthless except for vanity reasons. Drive ads to your landing page where people can download/buy your book or join your email list. Drive ads to your Amazon pages, etc...

Never... buy... likes.


----------



## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Stepping in here to address something that was discussed earlier in the thread. (Sorry, I'm on vacation and not keeping up with things as well as sometimes.) For the new folk, troll is considered a four letter word here. We ask that people not use it; it's thrown around far too easily and is against our general rule (see Forum Decorum) against name calling, even if discussing someone outside our forum.

If you think the information provided by someone, member or not, is not valid, you should be able to say so without resorting to name calling by addressing the problems with the content.

I don't want to derail this thread, so please, if you have any questions about this, don't hesitate to PM me.

Betsy
KB Moderator


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

This article was a jaw-dropper:

http://www.businessinsider.com/mans-600000-facebook-ad-disaster-2014-2

What's interesting is that he owes Facebook over $300,000 for unpaid ads, but they won't sue him. Maybe FB makes so much money they don't care about that unpaid bill, but perhaps they don't want to put themselves in a position to be third-party audited if they were in court.

Anyway, wow, I can't believe this guy, a small business, spent that much without really understanding what he was doing.


----------



## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Alan Petersen said:


> This article was a jaw-dropper:
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/mans-600000-facebook-ad-disaster-2014-2
> 
> ...


Exactly. Likes are worthless really except for vanity/branding. Shoot for sales.


----------



## Alan Petersen (May 20, 2011)

jimkukral said:


> Exactly. Likes are worthless really except for vanity/branding. Shoot for sales.


Reminds me of a roadside billboard. I have a friend who works for a Fortune 500 company. They have billboards all over the world. I asked how do they track if that billboard pays for itself in sales, and it's not about sales, it's about visibility/branding. And that has its worth too, if you know what you're doing.


----------

