# Alas! [Gatekeepers, Covers, and Blurbs]



## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

*[The latest subject edit to indicate that this discussion, as a general rule, has shifted more towards a discussion of my series and how it is presented.]*

_*[Subject Edited, just because. Again, seriously, I am a) not angry and b) hearing what people say. Tone doesn't work well in text, but trust me when I say this thread contained nothing to get worked up about. Nothing but nice, calm discussion.]*_

To preface, I'm not really angry, but I'm going to vent a little bit and then go to sleep. 

I'm doing a promo for Noon High in the future, and scheduling the free notifications in advance. So I'm contacting the "new gatekeepers" (the folks who decide what they will feature and what they wont when sending out lists. tweets, facebook updates, etc.) and letting them know when it's on promo.

Up front, I don't expect even half of them to feature me. I'm happy with anything.

But I was told by one of the sites that I would not be featured for three reasons.

One, lack of reviews (I'm cool with that, it was released Friday. It'll get more reviews soon); two, length (fine, some folks want to discriminate against short folks . . . but others really enjoy series in bite-size); and three, the cover. (Professionally designed by a real live graduate of a school which is dedicated to art who works in product design all day long. So even if it's not someone's preference, it's at least not been created by my toddler.)

This is where I get off the crazy train. This is a site where books are featured that have a cover which was either designed by the createspace automated designer, or someone's mom in MS Paint. There's no actual designer who has touched any number of titles which made the cut.

So either the gatekeepers have some knowledge of readers liking bad covers, or there's just random magic-eight-ball use going on.



My personal opinion: readers like covers that a computer program didn't spit out or that have obviously been properly feathered, etc. by someone with an ounce of skill. Also, I believe readers like covers where you have not simply taken a photograph and placed red text (which is semi illegible against the photo) on top of it with no regard to typography or text effects.

I have faith in readers. It's hard to be blind and read, after all.  (Text-to-Speech enabled on my titles though, just in case!)

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. Curse thee gatekeepers, and thy horrible taste in art.



(Ah, so much better.)


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

They don't see the whole cover, just the front cover. Ebook covers in thumbnail size are not a place to get artsy. Readable name, title, and *genre specific image* are important.

While your image is nice, it gives no clue as to its genre. *This is huge*. People will not click on a cover if they instantly can't tell what genre it is. Those bloggers won't feature your book, because they know this. However, I bet when they look at everyone of the createspace titles, they can tell instantly what the genre is.

We've had several authors here who had beautiful images or professionally designed covers that weren't working. It almost always boils down to not being able to tell the genre at a glance.

Go look at the top ten covers in your genre and see what elements are needed. Go back and fix yours, and you'll have much better luck next time around.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I like your covers a lot when I look at them full size, but they don't appear to have been designed with thumbnails in mind: the typography is hard to read at that size, and I can't tell that the image on _Noon High _is a tower unless I click through to the book page. That's too bad, as thumbnails are all most shoppers ever see. That is to say, if the design doesn't work at thumbnail, it's not going to function optimally in an online sales environment.

Lisa is right about covers and genre, but it beats me what a "Fantasy Police Procedural" cover should look like. The closest thing I'm coming up with is Jasper Fforde's bookworld series (_The Eyre Affair_ and sequels), a genre mashup (literary adaptation + sci-fi + fantasy + mystery) that's sold as literary fiction, I think. To me, your covers do look appropriate as whimsical literary fiction covers. Of course, literary fiction is tough to sell.

At any rate, I agree that your covers are very cool and artsy pieces of design and were clearly produced by a pro, though maybe not a pro who has tons of experience designing for the peculiar little niche of online book sales (?).


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

When I read "Noon High" I think it's a play on the western "High Noon." But then I look at the skyscraper, and I'm confused. Since I'm confused, I think it must be literary fiction about contemporary lives and some type of office shenanigans that resemble the plot of High Noon, with some kind of confrontation that mimics the shooting at the O-K corral. This is what I think in about two seconds.
So I skip it.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

In my "Confessions of an Ebook Marketer" post, I explain in detail how we new gatekeepers work. An excerpt that applies to free advertising is this:

"Remember, when you are advertising for free, WE are taking the risk that customers will be attracted to your product and click and buy your ebook or other products on Amazon so we make a little bit of money. If readers only download your sample and buy your book later, we make nothing. " You can read the full, lengthy post here: http://eawestwriting.blogspot.com/2012/12/confessions-of-ebook-marketer.html

Your product description is backwards, you have an excerpt before the description, and when books are shared on Facebook etc. only the first line really shows up next to the cover. If you truly have a magical detective short story series, which is an awesome pitch, you need to make covers that will attract readers of magical detective stories. I see nothing referencing magic or the paranormal on your cover. An author who has a similar pitch is Tom Keller with _Return of the High Fae_. His cover has more elements to it that match the product description. I'm not saying copy him, but think about what parts of the story can you bring into the cover party.

As far as the short form goes, it is harder for ebook marketers to share unless an author has multiple books. As an ebook marketer, I want my reader to click my link, get your short, and go "Oh this is so good" come back to my community say so or like the post or share, and maybe even go get your next book. I did see one author go with a "lunch time short" branding which was awesome from a marketing standpoint because I shared that at 10:30 EST with the mantra "Got something to read for your lunch break? Try a lunchtime short!"

Marketing is about the pretty packaging on the outside. It doesn't affect the quality of the product INSIDE. If the writing is good, you owe it to the story and to yourself to not get caught up in the "artsy" part of it but in the what's going to put this story in the MOST # of hands. If you do want to be hard set about the art side, that's okay, but you can't always obtain commercial success with overly artistic endeavors. And every author has to figure out that balance for themselves.

I had to do this too. I paid $300 for my original cover (you can still see it on the print version). I didn't want to have a typical romantic type cover. Once I got over myself and realized my story NEEDED a cover that better explained what the book was about, my sales have done so much better on a consistent basis.


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## Annette_g (Nov 27, 2012)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Go look at the top ten covers in your genre and see what elements are needed. Go back and fix yours, and you'll have much better luck next time around.


This is so true. When I first published one of my m/m erotica short stories, I had a cover that I liked, but it was very artsy and said nothing about the genre inside. When I changed it to the man with bare chest on the cover (like most of them are) - it flew off the shelves that day


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## Onedayatatime (Oct 14, 2012)

i'm not trying to be mean because I know how arbitrary the rules are for getting your book talked about, posted about or tweeted about but your covers aren't that much better than the ones you are slamming. Please don't take this the wrong way. Some of my covers aren't all that at all.

But from your thumbnail, I thought the picture in Noon High was a pair of oddly shaped pants. And when I click on the image and go to Amazon, the red typography at the top is barely readable and slanted. I'm not sure if that is on purpose but it doesn't look good.

Remember the average reader may just look at your book cover and not even read the blurb to see if they want to buy it. Your book cover does nothing much to draw people in or let them know the genre of the book.

Sorry to be mean.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> They don't see the whole cover, just the front cover. Ebook covers in thumbnail size are not a place to get artsy. Readable name, title, and *genre specific image* are important.


Name is readable. Title as well. I won't debate the merits of a single iconic image with you. People either like them or don't. They've been used to good effect for a long time in cover art. In any number of genres. You can call them "traditional" design to some extent.



> While your image is nice, it gives no clue as to its genre. *This is huge*. People will not click on a cover if they instantly can't tell what genre it is. Those bloggers won't feature your book, because they know this.


Some people. Others will see another samey samey cover and yawn, thinking they know this story, they read it last week.



> However, I bet when they look at everyone of the createspace titles, they can tell instantly what the genre is.


I could not tell you the genre of two of the three examples I gave you. The third was (I think) a legal thriller. There was a badly manipulated courtroom anyway. Conveniently there is a GENRE: Blah Blah tag next to them on this particular listing page, so people don't get confused.

Similarly, on Amazon, located directly below an image is a description. While this may not help in a list of thumbs, it does work if someone clicks in. And, if they find the book on a search, chances are it's genre or keyword related. I have faith in readers to know that they are looking at fantasy or crime most of the time. 

And I can tell you one thing about these covers: they draw the eye way, way better than the samey samey genre covers. If they eye is drawn, you get visually intrigued. Maybe you click, maybe you don't. But if there's nothing to draw in the first place?



> We've had several authors here who had beautiful images or professionally designed covers that weren't working. It almost always boils down to not being able to tell the genre at a glance.


Which does nothing to explain why you have perfectly successful titles with covers that say nothing at all about genre, and simply have an elegant design. While it may be conventional to try and scream genre, the reality is that it's not necessary to sell books. You can still sell books without making your cover identical to the next guy. You simply draw on different design principles when you're working out your cover.



> Go look at the top ten covers in your genre and see what elements are needed. Go back and fix yours, and you'll have much better luck next time around.


I know you mean well, but I think that variety is nice, and I'll stick with the subset of designs that do not have a stock photo montage, and instead use other design elements. I certainly appreciate your opinions, and I respect them, but the decision to not do yet another stock photo montage or big budget illustration was deliberate. This is in part motivated by the fact that it's really easy to say "what elements are needed" and a lot harder to actually do it when your genre mix is unconventional, and when you have zero budget. (We're not looking at novels, these are shorts. Can't drop hundreds of dollars on them.)

Urban Fantasy, modern, but not real world, cops, but no guns, magic, but mainly as a replacement for technology . . . oh, and 34 planned covers in one year. The realities are what they are, and I can neither afford the time nor the money to get someone to draw me the cover of "Cold Front" thirty four times in variations on a theme. Without dropping thousands of dollars on illustrations (for 7500 word short stories) options run out fast. So, the decision was made to work with color, typography, and one or two iconic items per cover.

And the results, in my opinion (which hey, I get to have one, and I have been reading forever, and eyeballing covers as a hobby for a good part of that) are solid. They'll also grow stronger as the line expands. Branding works. That's marketing fact. And there's no confusing whose covers they are.



Becca Mills said:


> I like your covers a lot when I look at them full size, but they don't appear to have been designed with thumbnails in mind: the typography is hard to read at that size, and I can't tell that the image on _Noon High _is a tower unless I click through to the book page. That's too bad, as thumbnails are all most shoppers ever see. That is to say, if the design doesn't work at thumbnail, it's not going to function optimally in an online sales environment.


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=noon+high+dire&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Anoon+high+dire

From that page I can read both the title and my name on my monitor. Now, I have a 24inch 1920x1080 monitor sitting three feet away. If someone has a monitor which causes images to look smaller or bigger, they will see it better or worse. For example, on the monitor next to me, I see them as "larger" because it is a lower resolution monitor.

I cannot (and no designer can) control the size of the monitor, or what zoom level someone views at. I don't control the settings of Kindleboards, and how the link-maker works to provide the sig links.

What I do control is what it looks like in the book (roughly, every device is different) and, most importantly perhaps, on the product page. On there, unless a person is using a crazy monitor or wacky zoom, they can see all the elements.

This, by the way, is better than a lot of books. Not saying books from people here. Just in general.

Perfect? No, not by a long shot. But I think we're pretty crippled by Amazon's terrible choices in store/search page layouts (anyone else really love B&N in comparison?) and as a result, we have to accept certain losses. (And a lot of people suffer there. Some designs are impossible to make look good in thumb, and yet they still hit top 100 lists.)



> Lisa is right about covers and genre, but it beats me what a "Fantasy Police Procedural" cover should look like. The closest thing I'm coming up with is Jasper Fforde's bookworld series (_The Eyre Affair_ and sequels), a genre mashup (literary adaptation + sci-fi + fantasy + mystery) that's sold as literary fiction, I think. To me, your covers do look appropriate as whimsical literary fiction covers. Of course, literary fiction is tough to sell.


As I said above, hell of a genre mash to deal with. The normal conventions don't apply outside of "cool illustration" which is simply out of reach. We had a lot of discussions about how to go with the branding (since we decided that was out best shot at making impact) and the end results were these.

[quote[At any rate, I agree that your covers are very cool and artsy pieces of design and were clearly produced by a pro, though maybe not a pro who has tons of experience designing for the peculiar little niche of online book sales (?).[/quote]

Which is a fine, fair assessment, and not causing any offense.

I'll let the designer know what people say, of course. It's not like she's going to get her feelings hurt. I'm the one who does all the righteous indignation.  Her boss crushes every little thing. "I don't like green. Make it yellow." So she's fine.



LisaGraceBooks said:


> When I read "Noon High" I think it's a play on the western "High Noon." But then I look at the skyscraper, and I'm confused. Since I'm confused, I think it must be literary fiction about contemporary lives and some type of office shenanigans that resemble the plot of High Noon, with some kind of confrontation that mimics the shooting at the O-Kay corral. This is what I think in about two seconds.
> So I skip it.


Which is fine.

But if you're searching genre lists you're not under those impressions. And if you're looking at an alert of a free title that has genre next to it, you're also not confused. The new gatekeepers don't want to make it hard, so they put helpers there.

For the same money someone goes "what IS that?" and clicks. They they take the thirty seconds to read the description and they maybe get interested.

All the snap decisions are totally legitimate, and I really appreciate you sharing the thoughts. 



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> In my "Confessions of an Ebook Marketer" post, I explain in detail how we new gatekeepers work. An excerpt that applies to free advertising is this:
> 
> "Remember, when you are advertising for free, WE are taking the risk that customers will be attracted to your product and click and buy your ebook or other products on Amazon so we make a little bit of money. If readers only download your sample and buy your book later, we make nothing. " You can read the full, lengthy post here: http://eawestwriting.blogspot.com/2012/12/confessions-of-ebook-marketer.html


I get that. And as stated, I fully expect less than half of those I contact to bother. If I get a few it's cool.



> Your product description is backwards, you have an excerpt before the description, and when books are shared on Facebook etc. only the first line really shows up next to the cover. If you truly have a magical detective short story series, which is an awesome pitch, you need to make covers that will attract readers of magical detective stories. I see nothing referencing magic or the paranormal on your cover. An author who has a similar pitch is Tom Keller with _Return of the High Fae_. His cover has more elements to it that match the product description. I'm not saying copy him, but think about what parts of the story can you bring into the cover party.


*It's not an excerpt.* It's a first person blurb.



> As far as the short form goes, it is harder for ebook marketers to share unless an author has multiple books. As an ebook marketer, I want my reader to click my link, get your short, and go "Oh this is so good" come back to my community say so or like the post or share, and maybe even go get your next book. I did see one author go with a "lunch time short" branding which was awesome from a marketing standpoint because I shared that at 10:30 EST with the mantra "Got something to read for your lunch break? Try a lunchtime short!"


Which I did have in and then revised out because I personally did not like the used-car vibe. I'll consider it.



> Marketing is about the pretty packaging on the outside. It doesn't affect the quality of the product INSIDE. If the writing is good, you owe it to the story and to yourself to not get caught up in the "artsy" part of it but in the what's going to put this story in the MOST # of hands. If you do want to be hard set about the art side, that's okay, but you can't always obtain commercial success with overly artistic endeavors. And every author has to figure out that balance for themselves.


I know. I've worked in marketing. My designer works in packaging. The entire point of the packaging is based on the reality of the line.

And I think the fact that I have the business plan that I have (loads of shorts, free and rotating to get people familiar, but some stuff is always for pay) is a testament to my willingness to think like a publisher, not an artist.



> I had to do this too. I paid $300 for my original cover (you can still see it on the print version). I didn't want to have a typical romantic type cover. Once I got over myself and realized my story NEEDED a cover that better explained what the book was about, my sales have done so much better on a consistent basis.


The cover is not my call. The design is in the designer's hands. The deal is I write and I sell. Design is not mine.

But I will be sharing thoughts people have with her.



Dan C. Rinnert said:


> I guess no one ever listens to the old advice to "never judge a book by its cover."


I know, right?  At least read the excerpt. 



Annette_g said:


> This is so true. When I first published one of my m/m erotica short stories, I had a cover that I liked, but it was very artsy and said nothing about the genre inside. When I changed it to the man with bare chest on the cover (like most of them are) - it flew off the shelves that day


Off to photograph my chest.



Oneday said:


> i'm not trying to be mean because I know how arbitrary the rules are for getting your book talked about, posted about or tweeted about but your covers aren't that much better than the ones you are slamming. Please don't take this the wrong way. Some of my covers aren't all that at all.


I'm not offended by you sharing your opinion. Art is subjective. Even when it's naked chests. 



> But from your thumbnail, I thought the picture in Noon High was a pair of oddly shaped pants. And when I click on the image and go to Amazon, the red typography at the top is barely readable and slanted. I'm not sure if that is on purpose but it doesn't look good.


I don't think one can accidentally slant text.



> Remember the average reader may just look at your book cover and not even read the blurb to see if they want to buy it. Your book cover does nothing much to draw people in or let them know the genre of the book.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts.



> Sorry to be mean.


Don't apologize for having an opinion.


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## tensen (May 17, 2011)

Becca Mills said:


> Lisa is right about covers and genre, but it beats me what a "Fantasy Police Procedural" cover should look like.


Thats OK, because I don't think any publisher is certain what a Fantasy Police Procedural should look like. Tor tried using one like this.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519WKiIgmtL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

tensen said:


> Thats OK, because I don't think any publisher is certain what a Fantasy Police Procedural should look like. Tor tried using one like this.
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519WKiIgmtL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg


Right, and Keith's is a "traditional" fantasy time frame. (He's maybe "closest" to what I write . . . but it's not even that close.)

Mine is contemporary . . . but a fantasy world. Non-earth. Magic replaces tech. But open natural magic use is very rare. It's all enchanted devices and alchemy, etc.

It is damned hard to sell a genre when the genre is you and a few other folks. Dresden is kinda sorta. Blake, again, sorya. The Guards from Kieth's Dragon Precint world, kinda sorta.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Mathew - 

You wanted to know why the bloggers won't pick you up. We clarified it for you. It's really not debatable—it just is.

If you want to increase sales, you'll change it. If you don't, that's okay. It's your book and your decision.

Again, these bloggers post books everyday. They know more than you and your designer about the business of selling eBooks. Either you are willing to learn or not, and that's okay, because there are plenty of createspace covers to choose from that communicate genre better and will get more click-throughs and sales for the bloggers. 

Edited: Sorry, I shouldn't presume to know what you're thinking. Forgive me, please.

P. S. I love my 15th Star cover, and my angel series. I would be hard pressed to change either even if it meant more sales.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> Mathew -
> 
> You wanted to know why the bloggers won't pick you up. We clarified it for you. It's really not debatable-it just is.


I was not confused by the why. The why is simply that someone has their own tastes and opinions, and a list of criteria that they look at.



> You're going through the anger stage of why your cover isn't working. If you want to increase sales, you'll change it. If you don't, that's okay. It's your book and your decision.


I specifically pointed out that it's not anger, it's head-shaking at something as subjective as "do I like the cover" . . .

I see a lot of professional covers on this forum. I do not like them all equally. Some of them I flat out am turned off by. WHich is not to say they were not designed by a professional, or that I am the arbiter of what is good.



> Again, these bloggers post books everyday. They know more than you and your designer about the business of selling eBooks. Either you are willing to learn or not, and that's okay, because there are plenty of createspace covers to chose from that communicate genre better and will get more click-throughs and sales for the bloggers.


I am telling you, the createspace style cover communicated nothing. I have nothing to gain by lying to you. Your theory that all covers must show genre is simply not what is happening in this instance. I would totally tell you if it were. I've no vested interest in misleading you.

I make the assumption that the specific individual made a decision based on a weighted scale where cover can be worse if other factors are better. I think that makes more sense than "nondescript photograph" screaming a specific genre, and I'm ok with it.

Again, as I already said, thank you. I appreciate your input, and I'll be showing this to the designer.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Mine is contemporary . . . but a fantasy world. Non-earth. Magic replaces tech. But open natural magic use is very rare. It's all enchanted devices and alchemy, etc.
> 
> It is damned hard to sell a genre when the genre is you and a few other folks. Dresden is kinda sorta. Blake, again, sorya. The Guards from Kieth's Dragon Precint world, kinda sorta.


But your genre is NOT just you and a few others.... though we'd all love to think that. You've said yourself, nothing new under the sun in our talks last night about fan fiction. I'm reading there that your shorts would appeal to readers who love steampunk. Alchemy, enchanted devices. It's not all just dirigibles and Victorian London alternate history. 

But there is nothing remotely related to anything fantasy on your cover. Diana Wynne Jones wrote a ton of books that took place in completely unique worlds with various magic type systems (depending on the novel) but her cover still appealed to fantasy readers.

_To say you have no control over your cover, that's the designer's call, unless the designer is also getting a cut of the royalties, no, it's YOUR call. That's when you aren't the author, you are the publisher._

And another thing, the world of book marketing is VERY small. It's as much about who you know and how you interact with them. Starting a public thread hating on the new gatekeepers is not a way to win many friends. For example, you and I messaged last night, and had your OP been of a different tone, I would have said "Don't worry about it, tell me your free days, I'll run your book." I've done this a ton for other authors here as I can. But instead, you've alienated me and others who would have helped you out.

You can't look at people who run sites every day, pitching and selling hundreds of books of all different genres and say "You know nothing, my book cover is perfect." Most sites won't even take the time to tell you why they can't run your book, and in cases where they do take the time, often they're trying to help you so they CAN run your book. We are accountable to our readers, we are only as good as our last recommendation to them. It's a tougher world out there for us because of changes in the social media algorithms. We don't have time or energy to just be "mean" to authors on whim.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> And another thing, the world of book marketing is VERY small. It's as much about who you know and how you interact with them. Starting a public thread hating on the new gatekeepers is not a way to win many friends. For example, you and I messaged last night, and had your OP been of a different tone, I would have said "Don't worry about it, tell me your free days, I'll run your book." I've done this a ton for other authors here as I can. But instead, you've alienated me and others who would have helped you out.
> 
> You can't look at people who run sites every day, pitching and selling hundreds of books of all different genres and say "You know nothing, my book cover is perfect." Most sites won't even take the time to tell you why they can't run your book, and in cases where they do take the time, often they're trying to help you so they CAN run your book. We are accountable to our readers, we are only as good as our last recommendation to them. It's a tougher world out there for us because of changes in the social media algorithms. We don't have time or energy to just be "mean" to authors on whim.


This is true. Book marketing is a small world with a few sites attracting the majority of ebook readers. And why? Because they do it well. They do have standards, and they deliver what their readers want. It still all comes down to pleasing the reader. Covers do need to communicate.

I take the advice of bloggers who reach readers because they are in a unique position, just like Amazon is, to learn something about what attracts readers to particular books. They're busy, and first impressions do count for a lot.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> But your genre is NOT just you and a few others.... though we'd all love to think that. You've said yourself, nothing new under the sun in our talks last night about fan fiction. I'm reading there that your shorts would appeal to readers who love steampunk. Alchemy, enchanted devices. It's not all just dirigibles and Victorian London alternate history.


Certainly. Only there's no steampunk dress and no Victorian silly. 



> But there is nothing remotely related to anything fantasy on your cover. Diana Wynne Jones wrote a ton of books that took place in completely unique worlds with various magic type systems (depending on the novel) but her cover still appealed to fantasy readers.


The covers I find of hers are illustrated. Perhaps you did not see, but again: 34 covers=34 illustrations=more money than shorts will ever earn out.

I have to be practical. I cannot sink much if any money into the covers for the line. That's why the decisions were made.



> _To say you have no control over your cover, that's the designer's call, unless the designer is also getting a cut of the royalties, no, it's YOUR call. That's when you aren't the author, you are the publisher._


You've obviously never met my wife.  And you've never worked with me as a designer. (Total nightmare.) The deal was I take it or learn photoshop. I took the deal, as I don;t have time to stop writing to learn how to do something far worse than she can do.



> And another thing, the world of book marketing is VERY small. It's as much about who you know and how you interact with them. Starting a public thread hating on the new gatekeepers is not a way to win many friends. For example, you and I messaged last night, and had your OP been of a different tone, I would have said "Don't worry about it, tell me your free days, I'll run your book." I've done this a ton for other authors here as I can. But instead, you've alienated me and others who would have helped you out.


1) I haven't named anyone, and 2) I have no problem with anyone doing as they please.How I have somehow alientated you is beyond me. I'll mark that one up to lack of tonal quality in posts.

But certainly it doesn't shock anyone that authors who eschew tradpub gatekeeping are not going to love it in other forms? I can accept it and I can deal with it, but I don't have to love the way that it's another group of people who have sway over directing people towards titles.

After all, nobody in that position ever let anything like a discussion on random internet forums interfere with whether or not they would do someone a good turn. 



> You can't look at people who run sites every day, pitching and selling hundreds of books of all different genres and say "You know nothing, my book cover is perfect."


No, I can't.

Which is why I haven't.



> Most sites won't even take the time to tell you why they can't run your book, and in cases where they do take the time, often they're trying to help you so they CAN run your book. We are accountable to our readers, we are only as good as our last recommendation to them. It's a tougher world out there for us because of changes in the social media algorithms. We don't have time or energy to just be "mean" to authors on whim.


And I have been very clear and polite with the individual I am talking about. I thanked them for their consideration. But that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to my own opinions. Nor that I am not allowed to discuss them.

And at no point in time have I indicated that the individual in question was unprofessional or unpleasant. That would have been untrue.

But it does not mean that I feel they are a good judge of covers, not should it mean that I have to be. Nor, in fact, does the fact that I am "just" an author mean that I am necessarily wrong when I say that some of the choices made had poor covers.

I also fully believe that poor covers do not prevent people from buying books. Because as was already pointed out in this thread, there is that old saying . . .


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

That's why we list ALL books. No gatekeeping. I hate gatekeepers.

But I do get their business model. Which is based off of only promoting books they think are going to sell, so they can get the affiliate commissions. Or the ad revenue for books that upgrade to premium listings. 

Remember, these are businesses. Businesses do what's best to run their businesses, with the ultimate goal to make money.

Did I mention we list ALL books? Even erotica and books with no reviews or bad covers. We don't see the point in gatekeeping.


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## BenEBrewer (Nov 5, 2012)

I was similar to you originally with only a couple of books published, I refused to let other people tell me that my cover was not good enough even though I had paid an artist £150 and it was damn good (got a good picture out of it anyway) but then I snapped out of the single minded belief that no one else was right and I started learning....

...I still have not reached perfection, maybe never will but now I'm constantly changing, testing and updating to see what works best because I know that * I serve the readers and it is not about serving my own needs*

There have been some *superb* replies to your comments here and they don't seem to be getting through to you somehow.

This is what I do with criticism - Suck it in, hold it there... hold it! Breath out, let it go... move on...


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Um, Jim?  Don't you have a dedicated author services thread?  If not, this would be a good time to start one.  If so, this would be a good time to bump it.



Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

jimkukral said:


> That's why we list ALL books. No gatekeeping. I hate gatekeepers.
> 
> But I do get their business model. Which is based off of only promoting books they think are going to sell, so they can get the affiliate commissions. Or the ad revenue for books that upgrade to premium listings.
> 
> ...


And yet somehow I missed you. Sorry about that. LOL.



BenEBrewer said:


> I was similar to you originally with only a couple of books published, I refused to let other people tell me that my cover was not good enough even though I had paid an artist £150 and it was d*mn good (got a good picture out of it anyway) but then I snapped out of the single minded belief that no one else was right and I started learning....
> 
> ...I still have not reached perfection, maybe never will but now I'm constantly changing, testing and updating to see what works best because I know that * I serve the readers and it is not about serving my own needs*
> 
> ...


Hey you know what, thanks for responding to the thread Ben. Have a really nice day.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Okay, this is quickly becoming ::head desk:: for me. I have to go work and can't kill my day with Kindle Boards (though I do love it here).

When I said "appeal" I didn't mean make it all steampunk. My book is contemporary fiction, but the cover appeals to romance readers, and it also appeals to women's fiction readers. Think Venn Diagram: what readers from the major genre conventions are you going to pull from?

Fantasy readers who like steampunk more than traipsing through woods?

Fantasy readers who like police procedurals more than paranormal?

Fantasy readers who like Richard Pryor more than Eddie Izzard?

Etc. really sit down and make up a profile of your perfect reader, one who is going to pick up your book and go "LOVE IT, let me tell everyone I've ever met!" 

THEN design a cover that's going to make them click BUY after 2 seconds.

This is hard. This takes experimentation. This takes risk.

I can't speak to your financing situation. I took the time to learn GIMP  and Inkscape (which are free Photoshop and Illustrator substitutes) in a weekend and bought a $15 stock art for my cover. And before you complain "yeah it's romance, that's easy" there are a ton of modern fantasy type stock images that can be made into cheap covers. You do have to take the time to go look and figure out a way to make lemonade out of lemons. 

Good luck to you. Now I have to go do all the stuff I was supposed to do before 10 AM this morning and it's now noon. Where's a Tardis when you need one?


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Okay, this is quickly becoming ::head desk:: for me. I have to go work and can't kill my day with Kindle Boards (though I do love it here).


I still haven't gone to sleep. 



> When I said "appeal" I didn't mean make it all steampunk. My book is contemporary fiction, but the cover appeals to romance readers, and it also appeals to women's fiction readers. Think Venn Diagram: what readers from the major genre conventions are you going to pull from?


I heard you. I understood. I made a joke.



> THEN design a cover that's going to make them click BUY after 2 seconds.


I have this awesome picture of my chest. 



> This is hard. This takes experimentation. This takes risk.


I'm not going to be mean. I want you to understand I have no malice in my typing. But the risk here is in using covers that don't (to you perhaps) seem to be "right" . . . I am already taking risks. Not taking risks is making the cover exactly the same as some other book in one of my genres just for the sake of trying to be conventional.

(Again, it has been pointed out, and luckily not just by me, but by others, that the genre cross I have isn't a straightforward fix.)



> I can't speak to your financing situation. I took the time to learn GIMP and Inkscape (which are free Photoshop and Illustrator substitutes) in a weekend and bought a $15 stock art for my cover. And before you complain "yeah it's romance, that's easy" there are a ton of modern fantasy type stock images that can be made into cheap covers. You do have to take the time to go look and figure out a way to make lemonade out of lemons.


I don't need to learn, I have a cover designer. I don't have time to learn, I need to write. I can't spend $15 every time I drop a short. I have two kids and one income (until, you know, the writing sells) . . .

I quit freelancing to do this. And I quit knowing it would be hard, long hours, kill our income, and be a lot slower than I'd like . . . and that this subject matter would not be as easy as writing something "familiar" where everyone instantly knew exactly what the story was. (I can write a wide range. I chose to do this specific cross genre project.)

But worth it to me.

And thus far I am not unhappy with how many sales or freebies I've sold/given away. I do not feel that hundreds of people who have their hands on my work only did it IN SPITE OF the cover. I think some of them probably did it because it caught their eye.

Maybe less than if I just stuck my chest on there though . . .



> Good luck to you. Now I have to go do all the stuff I was supposed to do before 10 AM this morning and it's now noon. Where's a Tardis when you need one?


Thanks.

Check the alley. The Doctor likes to park out of sight.

(And I'll consider the blurb thing. Since I am allowed to touch all the writing without approval.  )


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

I like both of your covers, although I agree they don't convey that the stories are magical fantasy. They look like murder mysteries to me, which seems appropriate in many ways. In any case, the covers certainly didn't stop me from listing your books on the Magic Appreciation Tour. I'm like Jim regarding the gatekeeping thing. On the other hand, I'm not trying to make a profit off your listing either.

The only way I could see making your covers "more accurate" would be to do something "Dresden-ish." But that would probably be an expensive option given your production schedule. In the end, I'm not sure they would be "better" than what you have now anyway. Cover design will always be challenge for multi-genre books.

We all have to make compromises and hard decisions about the books we publish. Your decisions may make your books incompatible with the business goals of other organizations, as was apparently the case here. All decisions have risk, and I can tell from your comments that you are well aware of that. If they won't change the way they do business and you won't change the things that make your books incompatible with their guidelines (however subjective or arbitrary they may seem), it's time to cut bait and move on. As you did.

I think what has frustrated some of those who have responded to this thread is that they were under the impression that you were looking for help to solve a problem. I get the feeling that your original post was more like "recreational complaining," which is complaining about something without expecting a solution. When suggestions were made, you responded with reasons why those suggestions would not work for you. You've clearly thought about the issues raised quite a bit (and probably long ago). You KNOW what you need to make the promo sites happy, but for business and personal reasons of your own, you aren't willing to do those things. There's nothing wrong with making that choice. They are your books, and you alone are responsible for their success in the marketplace.


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## 13893 (Apr 29, 2010)

Dan C. Rinnert said:


> I guess no one ever listens to the old advice to "never judge a book by its cover."


The reason the saying "Never judge a book by its cover" exists is because everyone does. Always.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> I like both of your covers, although I agree they don't convey that the stories are magical fantasy. They look like murder mysteries to me, which seems appropriate in many ways. In any case, the covers certainly didn't stop me from listing your books on the Magic Appreciation Tour. I'm like Jim regarding the gatekeeping thing. On the other hand, I'm not trying to make a profit off your listing either.


And I totally get their business model, to be sure.



> The only way I could see making your covers "more accurate" would be to do something "Dresden-ish." But that would probably be an expensive option given your production schedule. In the end, I'm not sure they would be "better" than what you have now anyway. Cover design will always be challenge for multi-genre books.


Weighed as an option and passed on, yes.



> We all have to make compromises and hard decisions about the books we publish. Your decisions may make your books incompatible with the business goals of other organizations, as was apparently the case here. All decisions have risk, and I can tell from your comments that you are well aware of that. If they won't change the way they do business and you won't change the things that make your books incompatible with their guidelines (however subjective or arbitrary they may seem), it's time to cut bait and move on. As you did.


There's nothing that says a different cover wouldn't get listed by a different gatekeeper. I can't know that. Nobody can. SO if I make a change maybe 10% of people like it more, 5% less, the rest no difference. Maybe 60% like it a little more but everyone else hates it intensely.

There was discussion of risk, and to some extent we ALL assume risk when we go with a design. Covers get changed a lot. There's a good chance these will eventually change as well. ANd when they do, the new risk is present. Are they something people will like?



> I think what has frustrated some of those who have responded to this thread is that they were under the impression that you were looking for help to solve a problem. I get the feeling that your original post was more like "recreational complaining," which is complaining about something without expecting a solution. When suggestions were made, you responded with reasons why those suggestions would not work for you. You've clearly thought about the issues raised quite a bit (and probably long ago). You KNOW what you need to make the promo sites happy, but for business and personal reasons of your own, you aren't willing to do those things. There's nothing wrong with making that choice. They are your books, and you alone are responsible for their success in the marketplace.


I think you're right. I think the natural inclination there was to try and help me fix a problem, and I hope I did a good job thanking everyone for their input, because it was appreciated. The thread has been shared with the designer as well.



LKRigel said:


> The reason the saying "Never judge a book by its cover" exists is because everyone does. Always.


Sure they do. And they bring with them their own preferences when they do it. We did some polling of people regarding the covers (4 different versions) and got some ideas of what people thought. Men were more drawn to one color batch. Women to another. Then they split across the iconic designs.

What did that tell us?

None of them had the same taste in covers. (And all of them read fantasy or mystery.)


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

DRMarvello said:


> I like both of your covers, although I agree they don't convey that the stories are magical fantasy. They look like murder mysteries to me, which seems appropriate in many ways. In any case, the covers certainly didn't stop me from listing your books on the Magic Appreciation Tour. I'm like Jim regarding the gatekeeping thing. On the other hand, I'm not trying to make a profit off your listing either.
> 
> The only way I could see making your covers "more accurate" would be to do something "Dresden-ish." But that would probably be an expensive option given your production schedule. In the end, I'm not sure they would be "better" than what you have now anyway. Cover design will always be challenge for multi-genre books.
> 
> ...


Can I just quietly celebrate this post? 
Wise and so much common sense


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

We need a genre called : fantastery


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Matthew,

I would seriously consider a new cover for High Noon. I thought it was a pair of pants. It's very difficult to read as a thumbnail and impossible to classify genre. I would not click on this. 

Also, I checked out your product page and it is not helping you either. I know you said that's not an excerpt it's a first person blurb, but it doesn't work. It reads like an excerpt because blurbs are generally not done in first person. You want to make things as easy and clear as possible. I'd flip flop the two bits as the info below tells more about the book and what it is. 

Remember it's all business, don't get too attached to a cover or way you've been doing things.

Look at H.M. Ward as an example. Her book Scandalous hit the NYTimes list after she changed her cover. Her previous cover was gorgeous, but it wasn't selling her book. It wasn't clear from the cover who her audience should be. She changed it and it's been happily settled in the top 100 ever since.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread from people who make their living marketing books. It may be worth considering it carefully.

Good luck!


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## BBGriffith (Mar 13, 2012)

I've seen books with extremely unprofessional covers rocket up the charts and stay there and I've seen books with mindblowing covers never see the light of day. I personally think authors spend too much time worrying about covers, but one thing seems to hold true: You need the tropes of your genre somewhere in your cover. They don't even have to look that good, but they need to be there.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Name is readable. Title as well. I won't debate the merits of a single iconic image with you. People either like them or don't. They've been used to good effect for a long time in cover art. In any number of genres. You can call them "traditional" design to some extent.


I can't read it. A lot of other people can't. So maybe you might want to re-think that statement. YOU know what you're looking at so your judgement about whether it is readable or not is biased from the start.



> Similarly, on Amazon, located directly below an image is a description. While this may not help in a list of thumbs, it does work if someone clicks in. And, if they find the book on a search, chances are it's genre or keyword related. I have faith in readers to know that they are looking at fantasy or crime most of the time.


I have a lot of faith in readers -- but NOT that they can read our minds. If we don't show the genre, they simply aren't going to know it.

Your cover (I'm sorry) looks rather pedestrian and ordinary (and I can't at first glance even tell what it is in thumbnail). I know you'll just defend it and that you don't really want to hear other people's opinions. I know it is annoying when people don't like something that you love. But you're hearing it from a lot of people so maybe you might want to give it at least a little consideration.


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## Terrence OBrien (Oct 21, 2010)

We get what we pay for. Nobody has any obligation to feature a book.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Masha du Toit said:


> Can I just quietly celebrate this post?
> Wise and so much common sense


Thanks, Masha. You're very kind.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

As a reader, I care less about an author name on a thumbnail than most here in the Writers' Café seem to think readers do.  (That being said, I can read the author name on Mathew's book covers on my iPad.)  Perhaps I'm weird.  Don't comment on that.    I do care about an interesting image and maybe the title.  That's what is going to make me click through on an unknown, not the author name.

The first person blurb on the book's product page also threw me.  On my iPad, I mostly see the first person-part and have to click on "More" to see the rest.  And I probably wouldn't do that, based on the first-person part. In fact, I rarely click on "More" in the product blurb.  I could be interested, I think, in the story except that (sorry) I don't read shorts.  If, as I think I've heard you mention, you're going to eventually pub a collection, that might interest me.  Enough there at that point to make it worth my time investing in the characters.

Just .02 from a potential reader...

Betsy


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## jimkukral (Oct 31, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Um, Jim? Don't you have a dedicated author services thread? If not, this would be a good time to start one. If so, this would be a good time to bump it.
> 
> 
> 
> Betsy


We don't have a dedicated author services thread. As a business we decided to make that part a paid listing. We'll keep listing all books for free though.


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## George Berger (Aug 7, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> We need a genre called : fantastery


I can just see the thread, right here on KB: "Is my new book a fantastery or a mystasy?" 

I can also see Julie's head exploding...

_--George, waah, mommy, there's no category on Amazon for your little snowflake's religiorotic romanture-fantastery..._


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## jackz4000 (May 15, 2011)

Today people are visually sophisticated and a book cover either communicates what it is about or it doesn't. ie: Matthew with your two books, as a shopper I have to stop and wonder what your books are about. Then I have to click to read a description etc. Unfortunately I would skip them. But if the cover does not interest me enough I just won't click on the book to go to the description. The cover tells me nothing about a cop with magic. If I was inclined to a story like that I would miss it.

Terrence's cover gives me a good idea of what his book is about. So do JR's books. And Ms. West's too. 

Your cover should probably let people know about the magic. Those interested will click to know more and those not interested will pass by.

A good cover does not always sell a book quickly. Sometimes it is not needed. Look at HH book Wool--you would never know it was SF or a great story. But it got many fans because of the story. I will add that this is rare. But the odds go with a good communicative cover.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> As a reader, I care less about an author name on a thumbnail than most here in the Writers' Café seem to think readers do.
> Betsy


The reason for a clear name is building a brand. If the same name keeps popping up in your "also boughts", there is a chance you might try a new-to-you author. I've actually received reader mail because this has happened, so they decided to try my books, and then fell in love with the series.


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## SBJones (Jun 13, 2011)

Well, at least they told you why they are not going to feature your book.  I would be more concerned when they start to deny books based on money.  What is your rank history?  What other books do you have that they might be able to collect affiliate sales on.  99c book?  Nope we want $4.99 books for that affiliate percentage they get when people browse books a day late and it's no longer free.

But even then, I can't complain because they are offering a service to me for free.  And it won't be free forever.  More and more promotional sites are starting to charge, and they should.  Even $5 a listing can make a pretty profitable business that can be automated with Google docs and a few scripts.


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## nico (Jan 17, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> Look at H.M. Ward as an example. Her book Scandalous hit the NYTimes list after she changed her cover. Her previous cover was gorgeous, but it wasn't selling her book. It wasn't clear from the cover who her audience should be. She changed it and it's been happily settled in the top 100 ever since.


While i wholly agree with the stuff i clipped out, i think it's important to point out that the cover change isn't the only thing that Holly did resulting in the explosion of popularity of her book. She changed the author name, tweaked the blurb, ran a BookBub promo, and blasted her mailing list (which may have been previously unaware of her pseudonym). Plus she has a significant reader base already.

I'm just trying to be careful when attributing causation. Carry on.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

nkt said:


> While i wholly agree with the stuff i clipped out, i think it's important to point out that the cover change isn't the only thing that Holly did resulting in the explosion of popularity of her book. She changed the author name, tweaked the blurb, ran a BookBub promo, and blasted her mailing list (which may have been previously unaware of her pseudonym). Plus she has a significant reader base already.
> 
> I'm just trying to be careful when attributing causation. Carry on.


Very true, but she also had done all those things before with the old cover (except maybe Bookbub) and wasn't seeing the sales she expected. Changing the cover certainly made a significant impact.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> The reason for a clear name is building a brand. If the same name keeps popping up in your "also boughts", there is a chance you might try a new-to-you author. I've actually received reader mail because this has happened, so they decided to try my books, and then fell in love with the series.


Ah... I seldom look at those. Mostly pick out my previously-unknown-to-me authors from their posts here on KindleBoards.... where the username and the quality of the posts build the brand, and then I look at the covers and go, "Ohhh, shiney."


Betsy


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I think you're right. I think the natural inclination there was to try and help me fix a problem, and I hope I did a good job thanking everyone for their input, because it was appreciated. The thread has been shared with the designer as well.


The best part of this thread is that you got all of this unsolicited feedback and critique on your covers. That kind of thing used to be against the KB rules unless you explicitly asked for it. I guess expressing your own opinion about covers in abstract put you in the cross-hairs. If my wife were the designer, I doubt I'd share this thread with her. Some of the "feedback" has been borderline rude.


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## nico (Jan 17, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> Very true, but she also had done all those things before with the old cover (except maybe Bookbub) and wasn't seeing the sales she expected. Changing the cover certainly made a significant impact.


Ah, i was not aware of the timing of those things. In either case, i'm not sure why her old cover wasn't working because it was very nice, but i guess i'm not the target audience. At some point we will probably have to redesign covers to match the shirtless, kissing couples that romance readers apparently expect, but so far ours are doing okay without them.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Terrence OBrien said:


> We get what we pay for. Nobody has any obligation to feature a book.


And certainly I never attempted to imply otherwise.

The lamentations were more those of sadness at lack of good taste. 

(For serious believe me when I say that the bad covers of which I speak did NOT NOT NOT have anything to do with genre in them . . . which means they were litfic or bad.) 



George Berger said:


> I can just see the thread, right here on KB: "Is my new book a fantastery or a mystasy?"
> 
> I can also see Julie's head exploding...
> 
> _--George, waah, mommy, there's no category on Amazon for your little snowflake's religiorotic romanture-fantastery..._


When I pull a Hugh Howey and spawn all manner of imitators I will let you name my new genre George. You have such a way with words. 



JRTomlin said:


> I can't read it. A lot of other people can't. So maybe you might want to re-think that statement. YOU know what you're looking at so your judgement about whether it is readable or not is biased from the start.


I'm only getting that here, and I'm trying to figure out why. It's readable (more readable than many other covers) here on both of the machines. It's readable on the machines of friends and family members I have asked about it.

NOON HIGH

Mathew Reuther

Everything else is unimportant. (But for the record most people have said they can read the short line as well.)



> I have a lot of faith in readers -- but NOT that they can read our minds. If we don't show the genre, they simply aren't going to know it.


How do you believe that a reader find a book in the first place? I am fairly certain that most of them find them in a genre or keyword search.



> Your covers (I'm sorry) look rather pedestrian and ordinary.


Don't apologize for your opinion. I appreciate your honesty.



> I know you'll just defend them and that you don't really want to hear other people's opinions. I know it is annoying when people don't like something that you love. But you're hearing it from a lot of people so maybe you might want to give it at least a little consideration.


I am not sure why people continue to say that I don't or don't want to hear what they say. I'm defending a publisher's decision. Not an author. The author demands I raise Parkinson from the grave and put him to work immediately. 

I've been abundantly clear about the situation. 1) I don't control the covers. 2) There's no budget for them.

This means that the designer has final say (and again for total clarity the designer is my wife, a professional, but still, in charge as per our mutual division of responsibilities . . . we all have our crosses to bear) and also that simply saying "go with a photo montage" or "hire an illustrator" is out. Again, 34 covers in 2013 are planned. I'm not going to embarrass myself with recounting how much I have not made on the stories.  But just count up what even ten bucks a cover comes out to and you get a inkling of why I'm disinclined to go for a solution that is equally pedestrian (everyone has photo covers . . .)

So, you know, for those of us putting out two or three novels a year, dropping fifty to a hundred bucks on a cover seems pretty easy. Particularly when sitting at the 70% royalty range, and selling a format that really moves. But selling shorts is harder, and there's less margin in it. I have to sell more shorts than someone has to sell novels (again, shorts move slower in general) to break even, and I'm in the hole until I do.

I have to make choices. Not easy ones. But I have to make them. And hey, those choices apparently invite the scorn of some of you. I can live with that. I'm the publisher, not the author when I'm dealing with these decisions.

Now, what I can't live with is another day of freelancing.



Betsy the Quilter said:


> As a reader, I care less about an author name on a thumbnail than most here in the Writers' Café seem to think readers do. (That being said, I can read the author name on Mathew's book covers on my iPad.) Perhaps I'm weird. Don't comment on that.  I do care about an interesting image and maybe the title. That's what is going to make me click through on an unknown, not the author name.


No comment.



> The first person blurb on the book's product page also threw me. On my iPad, I mostly see the first person-part and have to click on "More" to see the rest. And I probably wouldn't do that, based on the first-person part. In fact, I rarely click on "More" in the product blurb. I could be interested, I think, in the story except that (sorry) I don't read shorts. If, as I think I've heard you mention, you're going to eventually pub a collection, that might interest me. Enough there at that point to make it worth my time investing in the characters.


I've had a couple of different versions of the blurbs up, and I haven't been able to decide which I like more. On the one hand, first person is the perspective. On the other, some people seem to get moderately confused by it. I'm leaning towards moving back to the third person I had running before.

As for the rest, you'll be taken care of. There are small bundles and large collections coming later this year. I'm aware some people prefer to have longer works, and that includes collections of small ones neatly wrapped up. 



> Just .02 from a potential reader...


Appreciated. 



PamelaKelley said:


> Matthew,
> 
> I would seriously consider a new cover for High Noon. I thought it was a pair of pants. It's very difficult to read as a thumbnail and impossible to classify genre. I would not click on this.


Another vote for pants! 



> Also, I checked out your product page and it is not helping you either. I know you said that's not an excerpt it's a first person blurb, but it doesn't work. It reads like an excerpt because blurbs are generally not done in first person. You want to make things as easy and clear as possible. I'd flip flop the two bits as the info below tells more about the book and what it is.


And yet just yesterday was a whole discussion about making a first person blurb. *sigh* Oh Kindleboards, you wily vixen you. 



> Remember it's all business, don't get too attached to a cover or way you've been doing things.


Business is the reason there's no money for a "normal" or "expected" or (as I like to call them after my eyes glaze over in B&N) "samesame" cover.



> Look at H.M. Ward as an example. Her book Scandalous hit the NYTimes list after she changed her cover. Her previous cover was gorgeous, but it wasn't selling her book. It wasn't clear from the cover who her audience should be. She changed it and it's been happily settled in the top 100 ever since.


And good for her success. But she WAS selling. She HAD resources. I have said over and over again, that these are business decisions.

"Spend money to make money" only works if you HAVE money. 



> There's a lot of good advice in this thread from people who make their living marketing books. It may be worth considering it carefully.


As said, I am/have. And again, the designer has the thread URL.



> Good luck!


Thanks!



jackz4000 said:


> Today people are visually sophisticated and a book cover either communicates what it is about or it doesn't. ie: Matthew with your two books, as a shopper I have to stop and wonder what your books are about. Then I have to click to read a description etc. Unfortunately I would skip them. But if the cover does not interest me enough I just won't click on the book to go to the description. The cover tells me nothing about a cop with magic. If I was inclined to a story like that I would miss it.


Thank you for sharing your assessment.



> Terrence's cover gives me a good idea of what his book is about. So do JR's books. And Ms. West's too.


Fairly certain the books being referenced are more conventional. No, I am not trying to be a snowflake. I am just pointing out that having scottsmen running amok with swords is a good bet for tartan histfic. 



> Your cover should probably let people know about the magic. Those interested will click to know more and those not interested will pass by.


Have had this discussion elsewhere, am willing to have it again: please tell me how you depict magic when it is technology? We have like a very, very few things that "scream" magic. And 34 covers. 34 models of magic wand? What is this, guns n' ammo?  (wands n' crystals?)

The equivalent here is saying "in your contemporary novel, you need to tell people that internal combustion exists, even though it is about a boy and his love of hot dogs" . . . 

Magic just IS in my world. It's mundane. Only a very few people use it at all without devices, and those people (like the MC) aren't flashy as a general rule. (He, in fact, DOESN'T use it, expressly . . . at this point in the timeline anyway.)



> A good cover does not always sell a book quickly. Sometimes it is not needed. Look at HH book Wool--you would never know it was SF or a great story. But it got many fans because of the story. I will add that this is rare. But the odds go with a good communicative cover.


Sure. 



SBJones said:


> Well, at least they told you why they are not going to feature your book. I would be more concerned when they start to deny books based on money. What is your rank history? What other books do you have that they might be able to collect affiliate sales on. 99c book? Nope we want $4.99 books for that affiliate percentage they get when people browse books a day late and it's no longer free.


That is a very real possibility for some avenues, and I don't think you're wrong to wonder about it at all. I have legitimate concerns about the influence the new gatekeepers have and will continue to build.



> But even then, I can't complain because they are offering a service to me for free. And it won't be free forever. More and more promotional sites are starting to charge, and they should. Even $5 a listing can make a pretty profitable business that can be automated with Google docs and a few scripts.


A lot of them offer priority listings now, yeah. Some of the oldest stopped free. How long until all the "good" avenues are gated, and they start buying each other out, and you have to pay loads just to get in the door? 

(See, I CAN write horror!) 



DRMarvello said:


> The best part of this thread is that you got all of this unsolicited feedback and critique on your covers. That kind of thing used to be against the KB rules unless you explicitly asked for it. I guess expressing your own opinion about covers in abstract put you in the cross-hairs. If my wife were the designer, I doubt I'd share this thread with her. Some of the "feedback" has been borderline rude.


I should grumble aloud more often. I might learn the secret of life, the universe, and everything. 

She's more than able to handle it. She lives with me. 

In all seriousness she is well aware of what people consider "proper" and the reactions from people are unlikely to surprise her. Also, she has bigger things to worry about during Toyfair. 

***

Again, thank you all for your input. I am reading and taking your advice into account as best the situation allows.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

DRMarvello said:


> The best part of this thread is that you got all of this unsolicited feedback and critique on your covers. That kind of thing used to be against the KB rules unless you explicitly asked for it. I guess expressing your own opinion about covers in abstract put you in the cross-hairs. If my wife were the designer, I doubt I'd share this thread with her. Some of the "feedback" has been borderline rude.


It's still against the rules...but I thought (and apparently others did, too) originally that Mathew was asking for feedback pertinent to his experience. I did not find any of the comments about the covers rude. Honest, but not rude.

Betsy


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

I just came up with a cool game. For authors who are wondering what do readers think about their cover, we'll do a game called "Guess the Genre" and let readers look at a cover, and without cheating, just share what they think the story is about and what genre it is. It will be gameshowy like the old Shop Til Your Drop (anyone else remember that show?).

I think that would be very eye-opening data.....


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It's still against the rules...but I thought (and apparently others did, too) originally that Mathew was asking for feedback pertinent to his experience. I did not find any of the comments about the covers rude. Honest, but not rude.
> 
> Betsy


I choose to take everyone at their word that they're simply trying to be helpful. Unsolicited though it was, I'm listening to what people have to say. I certainly don't mind commentary. If I did it might be better for me to not write, huh?


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## nico (Jan 17, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I just came up with a cool game. For authors who are wondering what do readers think about their cover, we'll do a game called "Guess the Genre" and let readers look at a cover, and without cheating, just share what they think the story is about and what genre it is. It will be gameshowy like the old Shop Til Your Drop (anyone else remember that show?).


This.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

It's against custom here because, while you might be able to accept it dispassionately, our experience has been that that's relatively rare.  More typically, unsolicited critique/criticism results in the kind of uncivil discussion we do not want here...  In fact, even invited critique/criticism can go that way.

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It's against custom here because, while you might be able to accept it dispassionately, our experience has been that that's relatively rare. More typically, unsolicited critique/criticism results in the kind of uncivil discussion we do not want here... In fact, even invited critique/criticism can go that way.
> 
> Betsy


Well, you know. What with my fantastery/mystasy and all I figure I may as well be aberrant and not overreact when people discuss things.


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## HAGrant (Jul 17, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> I just came up with a cool game. For authors who are wondering what do readers think about their cover, we'll do a game called "Guess the Genre" and let readers look at a cover, and without cheating, just share what they think the story is about and what genre it is. It will be gameshowy like the old Shop Til Your Drop (anyone else remember that show?).
> 
> I think that would be very eye-opening data.....


Love this, Elizabeth!


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> It's still against the rules...but I thought (and apparently others did, too) originally that Mathew was asking for feedback pertinent to his experience. I did not find any of the comments about the covers rude. Honest, but not rude.


That's why you are the moderator, Betsy. Mathew did say he appreciated the feedback, even if he didn't ask for it. I had no business getting offended "for him."


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> That's why you are the moderator, Betsy. Mathew did say he appreciated the feedback, even if he didn't ask for it. I had no business getting offended "for him."


I dunno. I'm so tired right now maybe I'm actually furious and you've picked it up.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

For the fun, have a look at these:

(first one is out, so you can see in thumb and sample, second is pending so only the image is available)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A2TVUY
http://jcrainier.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Ashes-Kindle-Cover-final.jpg

They say genre?

(Point being the same designer did these covers.)


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

DRMarvello said:


> That's why you are the moderator, Betsy. Mathew did say he appreciated the feedback, even if he didn't ask for it. I had no business getting offended "for him."


It was a valid question to ask (though not actually asked as a question).


Good to clarify things, there are always a lot of new folk....

Betsy


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Debate about the specific cover aside, yes, we have new gatekeepers.

In the past, I've designed covers and blurbs to appeal to the gatekeepers for the Select freebie days. That has been my strategy. I've changed my covers a bit recently because I'm dropping those books out of Select, so I can now narrow my appeal.

It's just strategy. There are many paths to victory points. Treat it like a Reiner Knizia board game.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Dalya said:


> Debate about the specific cover aside, yes, we have new gatekeepers.
> 
> In the past, I've designed covers and blurbs to appeal to the gatekeepers for the Select freebie days. That has been my strategy. I've changed my covers a bit recently because I'm dropping those books out of Select, so I can now narrow my appeal.
> 
> It's just strategy. There are many paths to victory points. Treat it like a Reiner Knizia board game.


I was dying for you to suggest burning the women and salting the pork of the designer.


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## AshMP (Dec 30, 2009)

I can see the branding in your two covers ... the yellow/marigold background, the simple imagery, the name ... yeah, I get it and I can see what you're working towards. However, the one in question doesn't speak to your genre, and I'll leave it at that because others have made all the points I would. You can choose to reconsider the cover, or not. But if you're being _told_ it doesn't work and you chose to ignore it ... then you have to face the "consequences" of that and you lose the right to complain about them.

And yeah, there are new gatekeepers ... but there will always be gatekeepers, you'll either learn to work around them or make alliances with them, but you can't think they don't exist.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I was dying for you to suggest burning the women and salting the pork of the designer.


It's too early in the day. I only call for hysterical mobs after dark.

If you don't write romance or romance-adjacent, your chances at a Top 100 spot are slim. That is just the beast!

The books I'm making money off now (e-rom) NEVER get picked up by the big sites, because they're smuttysmut. So, I'm using Select for some of them, but the strategy is completely different.*

*In the sense that I have no strategy and just keep releasing stuff.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Dalya said:


> It's too early in the day. I only call for hysterical mobs after dark.
> 
> If you don't write romance or romance-adjacent, your chances at a Top 100 spot are slim. That is just the beast!
> 
> ...


I was saying the other day that I should just go write erotica to fund my other stuff.

I'd sell enough to buy cover art in a day or two.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> For the fun, have a look at these:
> 
> (first one is out, so you can see in thumb and sample, second is pending so only the image is available)
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A2TVUY
> ...


Actually, I tested myself, and on the first one I saw scifi adventure BEFORE I scrolled down to the bottom to check my guess.

The typography on Columbus: Flight clearly signals scifi vs. a historical. It's modern looking, sans-serif.

The ship's wheel made me think journey, but the star in the top right and lack of a ocean is what made me think "hmmm space, maybe the vessel is called the columbus like we had the USS Enterprise as an air craft carrier."

The second book, while not screaming sci-fi adventure gets away with the red, but again typography is strongly scifi and the breaking up of the ship's wheel in that fashion doesn't scream shipwreck to me, it screams like particles breaking up again, scifi. Modern.

Just curious, why do you think these covers don't fulfill the scifi adventure genre?


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Just curious, why do you think these covers don't fulfill the scifi adventure genre?


I do.

My point was that the same designer did those covers as did mine.

Just wanted to redeem her a bit.


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## Atunah (Nov 20, 2008)

nkt said:


> Ah, i was not aware of the timing of those things. In either case, i'm not sure why her old cover wasn't working because it was very nice, but i guess i'm not the target audience. At some point we will probably have to redesign covers to match the shirtless, kissing couples that romance readers apparently expect, but so far ours are doing okay without them.


As a huge romance reader, I do NOT expect shirtless or kissing. That is a misconception. The cover of Scandalous does not have anyone shirtless on it. They also are not really kissing. About to I guess. 
But what it does do is tell me that the book is romance. I had never even heard of the author, nor have I further clicked on the other covers of the same author, including the old for Scandalous. It didn't look like anything I was interested in. 
The old cover to me looked like some YA fantasy. So I never had checked it out. Now I know about it because the cover tells me what it is. I noticed it from an email of one of the book sites I assume was advertised with. I would have scrolled right on by with the old cover.

Now if you are a well known author of romance, you might get away with a cover that doesn't say romance very clearly. But then the name sells it. I already know what I am getting at that point.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Your idea of a simple icon is valid, but the execution is what people are commenting on. I did a quick mockup for a visual aid.

I took your cover and spent 10 minutes tweaking it in Adobe Illustrator. This is a basic wireframe to make a point, not an actual design.

I didn't draw all the bricks, but I kept it "iconic" at all three sizes, which is key to discoverability and additional sales.

Your cover uses a detailed illustration and it doesn't scale. This is why it looks like a pair of pants or a skyscraper. Your image would work on a poster but not an ebook.

The old style typewriter font doesn't scale well either, which wouldn't be a problem if you used fewer words. You have 2 subheads to work into the design, which makes the font look cramped.

I suggest combining the 'dire short' and 'case files' line into one subtitle to make your designer's job easier. "A Dire Short: Case File One" or something. Fewer elements allow them to be bigger, so they scale better. With one subtitle, I could do a lot more layout wise.

Or you could try a better font.

Last note, when working small all that space above and below your design is wasted. Again, poster versus ebook, you should design for all three sizes because you don't know what readers will see first.

Your premise for your brand and covers is sound, it just needs some tweaking to work in the ebook market. Adding details to the tower would give it that wood-print look from the original, but the silhouette is key to a 'fantasy' icon at scale.

Your design works for the kindle size, not the other two. I won't get into a long debate about that, twenty years of graphic design experience talking. But if you improve the execution of your concept, you might have better luck with the gate keepers.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I do.
> 
> My point was that the same designer did those covers as did mine.
> 
> Just wanted to redeem her a bit.


OH. I don't think there's anything wrong with the design of your cover aesthetically, it's about the function covers in the digital world play. For example, when I first published back in 2011, one concern I had was what does my cover look like in black and white. Why? Because at the time, only Nook had a color ereading device, and everyone was using black and white e-ink displays. The ornate color covers became muddied in grayscale.

Today, the function of a cover to convey genre is important, it's the reader's way to know they're about to walk down the right book store aisle when the click the book's cover to go buy it. Reader sites mix all the genres in, so it's important for the readers to be able to easily see what they want when they want it. IF I was looking for a mystery/fantasy short story, I don't know that's the book aisle I'm going to from the yellow cover alone. That's all.

What if short story writers started making HALF covers? That would be an interesting hack! Top part is the cover, bottom is white space with "Short Story" lol. Or "30 minute Read" etc. etc.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Long time lurker, second time poster. This is a pretty cool community.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

So what genre does Burke's modification scream?


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> How do you believe that a reader find a book in the first place? I am fairly certain that most of them find them in a genre or keyword search.


And I am fairly certain from experience that you are mistaken. I am fairly certain that most find my novels from Amazon recommendations and Also Bought lists of books they are buying. A fair number find them on the Pop list and Best Seller lists as well. I'm sure some use keywords searches, but only if they don't see what they are looking for do they do a keyword search.

Early on I got most of my sales by being high on Amazon recommendations for historical fiction purchasers and Gemi Sasson's AB list. When The Shadow Ryana started selling quite well buyers told me that it was being recommended as a new novel in their emails.

OT but since you asked. 

ETA: And honest to god, when I saw your cover as with several other people, I thought those were pants. 

On the other hand, it works well with your other cover for branding, so it might work in spite of what I consider some real weaknesses.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> And I am fairly certain from experience that you are mistaken. I am fairly certain that most find my novels from Amazon recommendations and Also Bought lists of books they are buying.


That's a fair consideration. I don;t generally use also boughts, but I do know they exist for a reason, so it makes sense that they would be useful.



> A fair number find them on the Pop list and Best Seller lists as well. I'm sure some use keywords searches, but only if they don't see what they are looking for do they do a keyword search.


Seems a reasonable breakdown.



> Early on I got most of my sales by being high on Amazon recommendations for historical fiction purchasers and Gemi Sasson's AB list. When The Shadow Ryana started selling quite well buyers told me that it was being recommended as a new novel in their emails.
> 
> OT but since you asked.


Not at all. I like to hear opinions/observations. Thank you.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I was saying the other day that I should just go write erotica to fund my other stuff.
> 
> I'd sell enough to buy cover art in a day or two.


Oh, you can certainly give it a shot. I'm trying hard to resist jumping onto my Brag Box here, but to make more than coffee money, the work has to hold the magic. The writing has to divert blood flow. For ladies.

But that's another topic entirely.


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## Satchya (Sep 5, 2012)

JRTomlin said:


> And I am fairly certain from experience that you are mistaken. I am fairly certain that most find my novels from Amazon recommendations and Also Bought lists of books they are buying. A fair number find them on the Pop list and Best Seller lists as well. I'm sure some use keywords searches, but only if they don't see what they are looking for do they do a keyword search.
> 
> Early on I got most of my sales by being high on Amazon recommendations for historical fiction purchasers and Gemi Sasson's AB list. When The Shadow Ryana started selling quite well buyers told me that it was being recommended as a new novel in their emails.
> 
> OT but since you asked.


I agree with this. We can always tell about where we are on the pop list and/or which page of the genre bestseller lists by how our daily sales are going. Also, spikes in sales can generally be attributed to a corresponding spike in sales earlier in the week (whether due to a promotion/freebie day/or something else) in one of the many books whose alsobots we are in.


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> So what genre does Burke's modification scream?


I was just trying to make your original concept work at scale. I think your tower cover was trying to be tall or high, which would work on a poster.

To talk genre design, I'd rework it personally, but the icon approach is a valid branding decision for a bunch of related shorts.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> So what genre does Burke's modification scream?


Well, this is just my opinion. I don't get a clear genre from it as much as I get "modern." It has enough about it that I would click to find out more because the castle icon has made me wonder is this a modern castle setting, old, what The colors aren't making me think fantasy, but more like a crime novel of old (along with the typography of Noon High) but a hunter green, royal blue, or purple absolutely WOULD.

I think you need to make a decision though if you are more mystery with a background of fantasy or a fantasy with a background of mystery. If the former, you're fine, recategorize it on amazon as a mystery. If the later, your typography, and tagline are communicating mystery in what they say and how, but the castle icon alone isn't giving me fantasy without another element (color, styling etc) to say fantasy.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Dalya said:


> Oh, you can certainly give it a shot. I'm trying hard to resist jumping onto my Brag Box here, but to make more than coffee money, the work has to hold the magic. The writing has to divert blood flow. For ladies.
> 
> But that's another topic entirely.


Are you questioning my bloodflow diverting skills with the ladies?

My dear, I'll have you know I've been married THREE times. 

(I drive women crazy. Bad. You choose which meaning you'd like for that last word.)


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Well, this is just my opinion. I don't get a clear genre from it as much as I get "modern." It has enough about it that I would click to find out more because the castle icon has made me wonder is this a modern castle setting, old, what The colors aren't making me think fantasy, but more like a crime novel of old (along with the typography of Noon High) but a hunter green, royal blue, or purple absolutely WOULD.
> 
> I think you need to make a decision though if you are more mystery with a background of fantasy or a fantasy with a background of mystery. If the former, you're fine, recategorize it on amazon as a mystery. If the later, your typography, and tagline are communicating mystery in what they say and how, but the castle icon alone isn't giving me fantasy without another element (color, styling etc) to say fantasy.


I agree with the colors suggestion. I got the feeling it was meant to be an actual case file with an envelope and "top secret" stamped on it. Again, just trying to make the original concept work at scale.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Well, this is just my opinion. I don't get a clear genre from it as much as I get "modern." It has enough about it that I would click to find out more because the castle icon has made me wonder is this a modern castle setting, old, what The colors aren't making me think fantasy, but more like a crime novel of old (along with the typography of Noon High) but a hunter green, royal blue, or purple absolutely WOULD.
> 
> I think you need to make a decision though if you are more mystery with a background of fantasy or a fantasy with a background of mystery. If the former, you're fine, recategorize it on amazon as a mystery. If the later, your typography, and tagline are communicating mystery in what they say and how, but the castle icon alone isn't giving me fantasy without another element (color, styling etc) to say fantasy.


I get two categories.

One is Urban Fantasy
The second is Police Procedural

This is where the crossing lies. It falls between the two pretty clearly.

Fantasy world, urban environment, dealing with the procedures of a police force.

The categories let me split the right way. The challenge is finding a way to manage dozens of shorts while a) branding, b) specifying genre and c) not spending money if at all possible.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

I would just like to say that you all need to go shopping for some new clothes.

Because those are some weird pants you've got lying around.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Please....discussions of bloodflow diversion are NOT allowed here.

Just sayin'.



Betsy


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## burke_KB (Jan 28, 2013)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I get two categories.
> 
> One is Urban Fantasy
> The second is Police Procedural
> ...


One tip for cutting costs, get the basic grid layout and keep it.

If the author, and subtitles never change, then you have most of the design done. You also have a predictable space for icons. All that is left is the image and the title. Can't think of a better example, but the Harry Pottery series uses the same layout, just different titles and illustrations.

Makes kicking out 30 of them easier, and the similar grid aids with branding.

Sadly my lunch break is ending. Best of luck. I do like the concept.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

burke_KB said:


> Long time lurker, second time poster. This is a pretty cool community.


Welcome, long time lurker burke_KB!

Glad you're enjoying the forum!

Betsy


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## Lummox JR (Jul 1, 2012)

If you're considering cover redesign at all, I have a suggestion. I believe this could be implemented on a very low budget with some judicious use of a paint program like Photoshop Elements and some inexpensive stock photos.

The covers do need more of a fantasy element to sell them as both genres. That's true of both the typography and the images. Thinking in terms of a fantasy-world police procedural, I'm thinking of case files scribed on to parchment. (This doesn't have to be strictly true of course, as long as the imagery is evocative.) This may not be at all appropriate to your story but here's an image I can think of: A sheet of parchment (relatively easy to do with Photoshop) on an aged wooden surface like an old desk. On the parchment, there's a sketch (a stock photo can be manipulated for this purpose) in one corner where you might see photos clipped to a form in a traditional crime novel. The rest of the page is something like statistics, arrest record, etc. Add a quill, inkwell, and blotter (the double meaning ought to be clear). Add a typeface that screams fantasy and make sure the title and author are both readable in thumbnail.

That could be way off the mark from what you need, but basically some kind of visual cue that there's a fantasy setting and some cue that it's about enforcing the law (heck, even a tin badge), combined with the appropriate font, should make the genre completely clear.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Lummox JR said:


> (heck, even a tin badge)


Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.

(Sigils are magical, 3 dimensional, and light up nice and bright when you flash them.) 

Thanks for offering some input.  I appreciate it.


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## Ignis_Designs (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi, cover designer here... yep, me, that one...  I have read feedback, and honestly, I haven't really found any of it rude. 

While I do think it is a little odd that sites are judging covers, as they are highly subjective, in the end it is their prerogative to post something or not post something. (that was the original reason for this post, right)

I just signed up for the board and haven't looked around, but I suppose I need to start a "How do you communicate modern fantasy crime stories" thread. That was the biggest problem I had when coming up with ideas, and, clearly, is an issue for most commenters.

I make board games for a living, before that, it was video game peripherals. So while I am a design professional, I have completed 4 book covers in my entire career, I am, by no means thinking I am an expert at this.


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## bmcox (Nov 21, 2012)

As a reader of the first book, I was a bit confused by the pants comments because for me that's clearly the tower referred to in the first story (though it could be a completely different tower, haven't read the second one yet).

All previous commentary was helpful, but here's my suggestion. Ignore it, continue to put out the shorts in this format with this design aesthetic. Push your first book. If it's in Select, get it out of there as soon as you can, make it free through Smashwords, and get Zon to price match. (This is probably your plan anyway.) Then, when the book goes free again and you get more readers, the aesthetic will be the cue and not the semiotics of the genre. The aesthetic becomes the brand and the series is recognizable. For the omnibus, you can design a more semiotically relevant cover.

I think that when you're dealing with cross-genre you have to make a decision as to lean towards one or the other or just chuck the convention and try and make a cover that establishes a sense of aesthetic and voice.

FWIW, your covers remind me of a modern take on old Polish book covers. Take a look at Dalya's cover for Practice Cake, it doesn't really say anything about the Romance or Teen genre, maybe Literary, or 



 But it's such a lovely cover, I wanted her ebook just for the cover art. Dayla, love your book covers.

Okay, that's all.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

bmcox said:


> As a reader of the first book, I was a bit confused by the pants comments because for me that's clearly the tower referred to in the first story (though it could be a completely different tower, haven't read the second one yet).
> 
> All previous commentary was helpful, but here's my suggestion. Ignore it, continue to put out the shorts in this format with this design aesthetic. Push your first book. If it's in Select, get it out of there as soon as you can, make it free through Smashwords, and get Zon to price match. (This is probably your plan anyway.) Then, when the book goes free again and you get more readers, the aesthetic will be the cue and not the semiotics of the genre. The aesthetic becomes the brand and the series is recognizable. For the omnibus, you can design a more semiotically relevant cover.
> 
> ...


I say we need a new genre called "But A Bird On It" . . . can we get a bunch of writers to do a simple short, and put a bird on it? Any subject, just cover with a bird on it, and it's in the put a bird on it genre.


----------



## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> then I look at the covers and go, "Ohhh, shiney."
> 
> 
> Betsy


You squirrel, you.


----------



## monicaleonelle (Oct 7, 2010)

I've read a good deal of this thread and what blows my mind is that people are so adamant about getting the OP to change his covers, take their advice, etc.

I have to agree with the OP. The whole point of a cover is to attract certain readers and dissuade others. Hopefully you are attracting people who will love your book and dissuading people who will leave 1 star reviews on your book. It's very subjective, though, based on what you like to read and what you like in general.

For what it's worth, I like the OP's covers better than at least half the other covers in the signatures on this thread. That includes people providing the sage advice regarding what covers "should" be.

I'm guessing that's because it's subjective, not because someone is smarter than someone else.

Getting back to the point of the thread, about gatekeepers, I really don't blame someone who has built a following online for rejecting any book based on whatever criteria they want. I don't think that makes them gatekeepers—unless the gate is like, a couple shoestrings hanging on for dear life between two posts 3 feet apart. The internet is huge; one rejection (or even a few) doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Someone else will happily promote you, while rejecting someone else the other guy accepted.


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## Steven Stickler (Feb 1, 2012)

Holy cow, there are a lot of words in this thread. I suspect Mathew had writer's block last night and decided to crowdsource half the dialogue for his next short (about a writer posting to KB). I can just see him sitting there in those black squared-off pants and Bowler hat, chuckling while hitting copy and paste over and over and over. 

Oh, and about gatekeepers: I LIKE THEM! (hear that, gatekeepers?) Seriously, though, they know their respective audiences better than anyone does. Doesn't mean there aren't other audiences/tastes out there, but to reach them may require a different path.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Steven Stickler said:


> Holy cow, there are a lot of words in this thread. I suspect Mathew had writer's block last night and decided to crowdsource half the dialogue for his next short (about a writer posting to KB). I can just see him sitting there in those black squared-off pants and Bowler hat, chuckling while hitting copy and paste over and over and over.


It's all true.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> It's all true.


I always knew it was really a conspiracy. By the way, if you look at Charlie Chaplin's pants...


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> I always knew it was really a conspiracy. By the way, if you look at Charlie Chaplin's pants...


Nooooooooo . . . paints...


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

> My dear, I'll have you know I've been married THREE times.


My husband has been married once. Why? Because he is very good at what Dayla mentioned. I've stayed.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Caddy said:


> My husband has been married once. Why? Because he is very good at what Dayla mentioned. I've stayed.


Hehehe


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## Caddy (Sep 13, 2011)

Thought I'd inject a little spice.


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

Nice writing Mathew, sharp dialogue.  Good luck.

Joe


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

My two cents on cross-genre covers. I'm also writing police-procedural fantasy novels. I decided to go heavy with the fantasy on the covers and hint at the mystery angle with the font choice and layout. I figured that my audience was more fantasy than mystery given the world and tone of the novels. So basically, I chose one to focus on. I have the first book (the only one out at the moment) under both fantasy and police procedural in the categories and for keywords I have both as well. 
Anyway, here is what I did with the covers (well, what wonderful artists did for me):








(please ignore that book five says book four still, I pieced this montage together quickly and hadn't updated the text on that one yet)

As for gatekeepers, if a site doesn't want me, who cares? There are other sites, other ways to get reviews, and ultimately, the only gatekeeper I care about are readers. So I wouldn't sweat too hard if you don't fit a narrow definition or requirements.


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## heavycat (Feb 14, 2011)

Gatekeepers will do what gatekeepers always do. They want to change your cover, your title, your character's names, your genre, your plot, your setting, your tone and your pen name. Then they want all the characters replaced with dinosaurs. Then they want the copyright and all the money too.

If you want to see the results, watch _Brave_. Fifteen minutes of Pixar awesomeness followed by the most epic narrative train wreck in 40 years of animated features. You can almost pinpoint the exact frame where Disney management got involved and forced the director to destroy the film. ("Merida in a princess outfit by the 30 minute mark or we're pulling funding")

Gatekeepers want to make all the creative decisions while passive-agressively insulting all of your creative decisions. In other words, they want to be you. But they aren't you, so they punish you by saying no.

That about cover it? (heh, "cover" it...)

I think your books look fine. Follow your instincts. If the gatekeepers were such marketing geniuses they'd be writing books, not shouting down other authors.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

Have you *tried* putting a bird on it? Like, maybe a crow?

ETA: But seriously, you know how authors gets so uptight about the publishers putting "bad" covers on their books? Sometimes I think the publishers know more than they're given credit for. Yeah, if the book flops, everybody throws around the blame. Blaming the cover is easy.

But did y'all really think this book was about the civil rights movement from the cover?










Of course, this isn't a self-published book doing a Select/freebie strategy. We have to look for successful models in our own world, then break down what they've done.

I wrote my novel "Pretty Girls Don't Cry" simply because I thought it would get huge downloads and some decent sales. I made a couple grand off that novel, not that it's selling much lately. I could probably be making steady sales if I just stuck with one thing, but I'm easily distracted. There's the business sense, then there's the flakey artist.


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## heavycat (Feb 14, 2011)

Here's a good cover. What's this book about?



> http://www.amazon.com/The-Hunger-Games-Book-1/dp/0439023521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359425032&sr=8-1&keywords=hunger+games


'nuff said.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

heavycat said:


> Here's a good cover. What's this book about?
> 
> 'nuff said.


The cover looks like science fiction to me.

Yep, 'nuff said.


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## dalya (Jul 26, 2011)

heavycat said:


> Here's a good cover. What's this book about?
> 
> 'nuff said.


Well, we really can't compare covers that have marketing $$ behind them (co-op placement at book stores, etc) to little indie books. I mentioned The Help only because of the birds.

I first learned of Hunger Games while browsing *a full-color flyer full of back-to-school supplies*.

I dare say, if any of you can score a feature spot on the front page and interior of a national flyer campaign for your indie ebook, and get placement in all the book chains, you can put a gob of bird doodoo on your cover and will sell copies. Remember to hype it as the superdooper hot thing every student is clamoring for.

Scholastic Inc. is the world's largest publisher and distributor of children's books.

We are not Scholastic.

Heed the indie prawn rules, indie prawns! (whatever those rules are)


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## heavycat (Feb 14, 2011)

> I dare say, if any of you can score a feature spot on the front page and interior of a national flyer campaign for your indie ebook, and get placement in all the book chains, you can put a gob of bird doodoo on your cover and will sell copies.


Agreed.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

heavycat said:


> Here's a good cover. What's this book about?
> 
> 'nuff said.


Well, obviously it sold well because it has a bird on it. Just like _The Help._


Betsy


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## Burrito Fart (Apr 22, 2012)

Dalya said:


> It's too early in the day. I only call for hysterical mobs after dark.
> 
> If you don't write romance or romance-adjacent, your chances at a Top 100 spot are slim. That is just the beast!
> 
> ...


I'm writing all the smuttysmut I can right now to fund my mystasy career later down the road. And also my Horrmance career.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> My two cents on cross-genre covers. I'm also writing police-procedural fantasy novels.


Yay!



> I decided to go heavy with the fantasy on the covers and hint at the mystery angle with the font choice and layout. I figured that my audience was more fantasy than mystery given the world and tone of the novels.


I waver. The way I write them feels heavy procedural, but you know that "rule" that says only fantasy readers will pick up books with magic?

I feel more like I write crime with a fantasy backdrop than fantasy with a crime story. But the important part, I suppose, is what my READERS think.  (Which, so far, seems like they get that gist.)



> So basically, I chose one to focus on. I have the first book (the only one out at the moment) under both fantasy and police procedural in the categories and for keywords I have both as well.


Sounds very similar to what I am doing in terms of categories (UF/PP split with keywords highlighting both the fantasy and cop aspects) right now.



> Anyway, here is what I did with the covers (well, what wonderful artists did for me):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like them. Part of me wishes I had a budget for illustration, for sure. 



> As for gatekeepers, if a site doesn't want me, who cares? There are other sites, other ways to get reviews, and ultimately, the only gatekeeper I care about are readers. So I wouldn't sweat too hard if you don't fit a narrow definition or requirements.


I'm not overly stressed. My original issue was the foolishness of using something as subjective (and you can see in the thread, some folks think the covers are fine) as the cover as a criteria. I've had a bunch of positive responses to my scheduling. I am hopeful that Noon High will "outsell" Day Breaks when it goes free.

***

Thank you for the perspective you shared on your UF/PP split . . . I am pretty sure I come down PP/UF after careful consideration.

And awesome to meet another writer working in the same niche!


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## AnitaDobs (Sep 18, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:
 

> I have to make choices. Not easy ones. But I have to make them. And hey, those choices apparently invite the scorn of some of you. I can live with that. I'm the publisher, not the author when I'm dealing with these decisions.


If your books take off, the world will call your covers iconic, if they don't, well, it doesn't fit the genre is what will be said.

There are some truly horrendous coves out there that _don't_ communicate the genre and still do well. I still haven't a clue what Hugh's 'Wool' is all about. I've never clicked over to the blurb, I'm sure it's a good book... but I get no idea from the cover as to what it is anyway. The first cover version of 'Wool' had me wanting to crawl under the covers (bed covers). I'm sure a few of mine have the same effect on people. Mind you, it could be said that Hugh already had a fair few fans, so 

Communicating genre raises your chances... perhaps (I certainly think it does), but it doesn't guarantee anything though. Sometimes I think a cover that stimulates 'curiosity' (as in 'what the hell is that all about) can draw people in, but it's a bigger risk than putting the tried and tested genre elements in. Maybe the payoff is bigger if it hits home(?) Still, I may as yet do an erotica short with a picture of just a tomato on it, a tomato that doesn't even feature in the book... I could tie it in with a title I suppose, 'The Erotic Tomato', or something.

Anyway, good luck with your covers. I hope your books do well one way or another.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

So we're fiddling with ideas and have come to some conclusions:

The primary genre is Police Procedural.
The secondary genre is Urban Fantasy.

As such, we're trying to put stress on the "CRIMES" tagline. This is a frequent element in other genre covers. (A reference to crime in some manner, either a specific sort, or more generally.) We can't make it greatly visible at also-bought size. It's simply too small of an element. But the readability of all the elements should be improved in the list and product page views.

For fantasy, it's tricky, but we're hoping that some of the iconic elements help steer impressions that direction. In addition we're trying to ad textual emphasis by modifying the font composition of the "Dire Crimes" element.

We've also widened the sheet to allow for more room to compose, meaning elements can be larger and more visible. Amazon "prefers" a certain aspect ratio for kindle, but to be honest, I don't see every title conforming to that and certainly nowhere near that many in the actual tops of the lists.

I just wanted to let everyone know that we both appreciated the feedback, and that what is happening is a result of the general thoughts shared here.

Don't expect wild changes. (Also, only one half of a bird, on the cover of number four. More bird-goodness later on in the year, I'm sure.)


ETA: I've changed the blurbs back to third person. They'll be up whenever they publish.


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## Rin (Apr 25, 2011)

...I may have to pimp your books at some point (I do urban fantasy/secret agents, so there may be some crossover in the audience).

I do like the big, bold covers with the simple iconic imagery - the only thing I can think of, is maybe have a larger series text, maybe with a standard icon in the background (magic wand crossed with gun?), and you can leverage your iconography from that?


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

> Quote from: Betsy the Quilter on Yesterday at 08:45:15 AM
> Um, Jim? Don't you have a dedicated author services thread? If not, this would be a good time to start one. If so, this would be a good time to bump it.
> 
> Betsy





jimkukral said:


> We don't have a dedicated author services thread. As a business we decided to make that part a paid listing. We'll keep listing all books for free though.


Not to derail the thread, but Betsy's post wasn't a comment on your business model. She was gently telling you not to promote your business in this thread (per KBs self-promotion policy), that you should promote your business in an "Author services" thread here on KindleBoards and if you don't have one that you need to start one.


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## Klip (Mar 7, 2011)

Hope it's okay to weigh in -- I always hesitate to give feedback unless it's been asked for -- but anyway:

Leaving aside the whole "genre" thing, I think you can improve your covers by improving the composition.  The "Day Breaks" cover is stronger than "Noon High" partly because it has a better balance.

I try to avoid centering everything into a completely symmetrical design because that can so easily look awkward. And it helps to think of a design as a series of elements that truly are balanced on top of one another. In most cases, putting a big element (Noon High) on top of a skinny thing (is that a building?) makes the whole design feel unsteady and unbalanced, as though it is about to fall over.

I would consider (in both cases) moving the title and author name to the bottom, sizing them so they are the same width and make a nice solid visual "block", putting the icons at the top.  Then play around with the scale of icons to avoid that static quality that is created by everything being centered and totally symmetrical. 

Even consider moving things off the page so that they only partly intrude, zooming into a detail etc.  See what happens if you play with the visual hierarchy so the difference in scale between title, author name and icon means the person's eye first goes to one, then to the next, and then the next.  At the moment title and icon are fairly equal which means my eye kind of skims over the lot and does not take anything in as important.


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## Anne Victory (Jul 29, 2010)

JRTomlin said:


> ETA: And honest to god, when I saw your cover as with several other people, I thought those were pants.


I thought they were pants, too... (weird pants, but pants. Actually, it was more, "What is that? Pants?") Sorry!  Editing has made me half-blind, though 

And I still <3 ya!


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> So we're fiddling with ideas and have come to some conclusions:
> 
> The primary genre is Police Procedural.
> The secondary genre is Urban Fantasy.


That's an interesting choice. It says to me that you believe police procedural readers are more likely to read a book with fantasy elements than fantasy readers are to read a book with police procedural elements. I'll be interested in seeing how that hypothesis plays out in the marketplace. I can tell you that, as a reader of magical fantasy, the fact that the story is in the form of a police procedural has little bearing on whether or not I would like it. Would a fan of police procedurals feel the same way about the fantasy elements? "Wait, you mean the cops have wands?"

Your situation makes me wonder if there's some sort of hierarchy of taste in genres. In other words, does the fantasy aspect of your book "outweigh" the police procedural aspect, or the reverse? I guess the only way to know would be to ask fans in both genres how they feel about the presence of the other aspect. In terms of a Venn Diagram, does the intersection include more from the fantasy circle or the police procedural circle? I would guess that the fantasy aspect outweighs the police procedural aspect, but that could very well be personal bias based on my own reading preferences. You are apparently betting on the reverse being true. You have my best wishes whichever of us is right.



Mathew Reuther said:


> ETA: I've changed the blurbs back to third person. They'll be up whenever they publish.


Be sure to update those on the MAT! Not that I had any problem with the 1st person blurbs.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

Dalya said:


> But did y'all really think this book was about the civil rights movement from the cover?


As Dalya said earlier, comparing a self-published book with a book that had millions of dollars of marketing muscle behind it are two different animals. Just about everyone agrees JK Rowling's new adult book cover wasn't so hot either, but they're not self published.

You're not doing newbies who are wondering why they are not being picked up by bloggers for free promotions any favors by suggesting the two are comparable.

Beautiful artwork or hip graphics do not necessarily equal a self published ebook cover that sells. Once you understand that, you can increase your odds by looking at what is selling, that is-if your goal is to have your cover help generate more sales.


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## ElisaBlaisdell (Jun 3, 2012)

DRMarvello said:


> That's an interesting choice. It says to me that you believe police procedural readers are more likely to read a book with fantasy elements than fantasy readers are to read a book with police procedural elements. I'll be interested in seeing how that hypothesis plays out in the marketplace. I can tell you that, as a reader of magical fantasy, the fact that the story is in the form of a police procedural has little bearing on whether or not I would like it. Would a fan of police procedurals feel the same way about the fantasy elements? "Wait, you mean the cops have wands?"
> 
> Your situation makes me wonder if there's some sort of hierarchy of taste in genres. In other words, does the fantasy aspect of your book "outweigh" the police procedural aspect, or the reverse? I guess the only way to know would be to ask fans in both genres how they feel about the presence of the other aspect. In terms of a Venn Diagram, does the intersection include more from the fantasy circle or the police procedural circle? I would guess that the fantasy aspect outweighs the police procedural aspect, but that could very well be personal bias based on my own reading preferences. You are apparently betting on the reverse being true. You have my best wishes whichever of us is right.
> 
> Be sure to update those on the MAT! Not that I had any problem with the 1st person blurbs.


I strongly agree that fantasy fans are, in general, much more likely to accept mystery/police procedural elements, than police procedural fans are to accept fantasy/magical elements. However, like you, it's based on a combination of hunch and personal experience. Two data points.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

ElisaBlaisdell said:


> I strongly agree that fantasy fans are, in general, much more likely to accept mystery/police procedural elements, than police procedural fans are to accept fantasy/magical elements. However, like you, it's based on a combination of hunch and personal experience. Two data points.


My angel series (fantasy) readers go on to buy The 15th Star (a history mystery) and enjoy it. My history mystery readers do not tend to like fantasy, from what they say.

From my experience, fantasy readers are more likely to be "anything goes."


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

LisaGraceBooks said:


> My angel series (fantasy) readers go on to buy The 15th Star (a history mystery) and enjoy it. My history mystery readers do not tend to like fantasy, from what they say.
> 
> From my experience, fantasy readers are more likely to be "anything goes."


If there is any cross over between my fantasy readers and my historical fiction readers, I have yet to see it. 

They never show up on each others BS lists and I've never had someone comment on having read both. You'd think that people who like medieval-style fantasies _might_ like medieval fiction, but apparently not. Or not mine anyway.

ETA: Wait, I DID have one reviewer comment that I had been writing fantasy for a long time and had apparently started writing historical fiction, so maybe one reader did cross over. (Actually it was more the other way around)


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> That's an interesting choice. It says to me that you believe police procedural readers are more likely to read a book with fantasy elements than fantasy readers are to read a book with police procedural elements. I'll be interested in seeing how that hypothesis plays out in the marketplace. I can tell you that, as a reader of magical fantasy, the fact that the story is in the form of a police procedural has little bearing on whether or not I would like it. Would a fan of police procedurals feel the same way about the fantasy elements? "Wait, you mean the cops have wands?"


For me the logic goes thusly:

The books are at their core police procedural stories. The main focus of the stories is on those elements. The fantasy is the backdrop, and the flavor. The unique blend of the genres is going to appeal to people who a) enjoy the crime stories at the heart and b) are not adverse to the (fairly subtle, actually) fantasy bent.

It's not a matter of PP fans liking the books more than UF fans.

It's a matter of where I see the core of the series being: deeply rooted in the kinds of traditions developed by PP authors over the years.

I think it's a series which appeals to both crime and fantasy lovers. (And in general I have received compliments for the characters and situations just from a general fiction standpoint as well.) It certainly has played out like that among the people that I have spoken to after reading the novels. I've got both crime and fantasy folks reading and enjoying, and I've even had a very kind review noting that it was someone's first foray into Urban Fantasy and they enjoyed it quite a bit.



> Your situation makes me wonder if there's some sort of hierarchy of taste in genres. In other words, does the fantasy aspect of your book "outweigh" the police procedural aspect, or the reverse? I guess the only way to know would be to ask fans in both genres how they feel about the presence of the other aspect. In terms of a Venn Diagram, does the intersection include more from the fantasy circle or the police procedural circle? I would guess that the fantasy aspect outweighs the police procedural aspect, but that could very well be personal bias based on my own reading preferences. You are apparently betting on the reverse being true. You have my best wishes whichever of us is right.


My theory is this: you have to be able to "get past" the fantasy of the world in order to enjoy it if you are someone who isn't a fantasy fan. The story itself is likely to appeal to those who have interest in crime (or in general fiction to some extent as I make every story about the characters) and thus folks who are purely fans of fantasy adventure stories MAY find less to love. Which is fine. I am a huge fan of epic fantasy, but these aren't tales about saving the world I am crafting. I can admit that if Lord of the Rings or Ririya tales are being sought out, I am certainly not going to fit the bill.

I think that your feeling upon reading the stories has been informed by your love of fantasy, for example. Certainly I try to not skimp on the fantastic, but the core of the tales are the cops, and their day to day work.

My goal is to strike a comfortable balance which makes readers pick them up and enjoy them for what they love individually, and hopefully grab some folks from one or the other genre and introduce them to something new.

In conclusion, I think people are "ready" for a series like Dire Crimes. We're coming off a decade plus of heavy fantasy influences with LOTR, Harry Potter, etc. and we're living in a time when the most popular television programs (and perhaps second most popular book genres) are crime. The mix seems to me to be "right" and certainly appeals to my love of both.

So I'm going to continue to delve into the mixture and see what unique situations arise as a result. I am thoroughly enjoying exploring the world, and the feedback I have been getting has been overwhelmingly positive. (To be honest I expected more blowback from the start.)



> Be sure to update those on the MAT! Not that I had any problem with the 1st person blurbs.


I'm going to do it when I do the covers, so probably tonight.  Just want everything to look right when we get them polished off. (Or dirtied up? We're pondering some grunge.)



LisaGraceBooks said:


> You're not doing newbies who are wondering why they are not being picked up by bloggers for free promotions any favors by suggesting the two are comparable.


I think that there is something to be said for ensuring that people are given a caution about design, as you have tried to do here.

But in the end it is not impossible to sell the unusual. I am not calling myself Hugh Howey, but it's noted that Wool's cover was not "normal" either, and a number of other self-published covers have been "odd" while still selling.

I deeply appreciate your advice, Lisa. I have certainly considered the matter of genre strongly in the new batch of covers. They will not, again (in part because of budgetary constraints), be featuring a photo or a montage. But at the same time, that's playing to the conventions of only one of the genres anyway, so there needed to be a balance struck.

The new covers will no doubt leave questions in your mind still. But they have incorporated some of what you've said at the same time, and I suspect will do a better job, if in some subtle ways, of getting the point of the series across.



Dan C. Rinnert said:


> Oh, that made me think of something. In the 2009 _Star Trek_ movie, they made the delta shield a pattern on the shirts. So, instead of a solid yellow (or other color) shirt, it'd be a yellow shirt made up of the delta shield.
> 
> So, maybe on the book covers, instead of a solid yellow background, it could be a subtle patterned background with iconography that represents the genre?


It's NOT solid yellow. (It wasn't solid yellow. We actually changed it since NOBODY say the tartan except when it got muddied up on the red cover that we switched out over the weekend . . . thanks for proving the point LOL.) The new covers will either be solid, or grunged up. We haven't finished yet. It was after one in the morning when we knocked off (Toyfair at the day job demands her time) and we'll be continuing to work with the question of background tonight. (Grunge being a procedural tweak. You may notice some of the books in that genre use it on their covers to hint at the seedy bits of their stories.)

The problem with such things is that they start to look plan bad when you reduce image size. That's unfortunately what happened with the tartan on the red. Amazon does a poor job of reducing size sometimes. (Even Dalya's poor bird on Practice cake suffers in part because of her . . . paisley background is it?)



LisaGraceBooks said:


> My angel series (fantasy) readers go on to buy The 15th Star (a history mystery) and enjoy it. My history mystery readers do not tend to like fantasy, from what they say.
> 
> From my experience, fantasy readers are more likely to be "anything goes."


I feel that fantasy readers have some exposure to a little bit of everything in some ways. Though as I said, there are some who really focus on the "OMG we must save the planet" type of stories and really don;t like to read much outside of that. But all genres have people like that anyway. "I only like sweet romances." OR "I'm Military Sci-fi all the way."

I've had a sci-fi convert with my books. Someone who reads almost exclusively sci-fi who had gotten stuck on the Dire Crimes stories. So there's potential here for anyone to find that they enjoy the books (I take that as meaning they are at least halfway decent) but I think that it will be easiest for fantasy and procedural fans to find the things they enjoy.



JRTomlin said:


> If there is any cross over between my fantasy readers and my historical fiction readers, I have yet to see it.


For what it's worth I read both genres, though I have not read any hist-fic since Pillars of the Earth.

I certainly intend to get around to your books after talking to you. Anyone who is as well-considered a poster as you are certainly deserves a look as an author.

Damn writing keeps getting in the way though. 



> They never show up on each others BS lists and I've never had someone comment on having read both. You'd think that people who like medieval-style fantasies _might_ like medieval fiction, but apparently not. Or not mine anyway.


I'd expect it too, to be honest. I know that part of my love of fantasy is rooted in my adoration of history (which I strongly considered getting a degree in teaching at one point.)



> ETA: Wait, I DID have one reviewer comment that I had been writing fantasy for a long time and had apparently started writing historical fiction, so maybe one reader did cross over. (Actually it was more the other way around)


Probably just their reading order which convinced them of this. 

***

In any case, new covers to be slapped on "soon" . . . we'll hope they feel a bit better to people. But again, don't expect radical departures. Just some more subtle tweaks.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

As a data point, I showed your covers to my husband (who reads mostly fantasy with a little bit of mystery sometimes).  He guessed the genres as historical mystery and western mystery (for Noon High, partially because of the title).  He gave me a look like "are you serious" when I told him they were fantasy police procedural.

Just a single data point, but he is one reader who would look right over these covers, thinking they weren't the kind of book he reads (even though they are, as far as I can tell).


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> For me the logic goes thusly:
> 
> The books are at their core police procedural stories. The main focus of the stories is on those elements. The fantasy is the backdrop, and the flavor. The unique blend of the genres is going to appeal to people who a) enjoy the crime stories at the heart and b) are not adverse to the (fairly subtle, actually) fantasy bent.
> 
> ...


Probably subtle tweaks are all they need and I won't mention Charlie Chaplin or pants. 

Thanks for the kind comments. I'd be interested in knowing what you think of them.


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## Lisa Grace (Jul 3, 2011)

I did look at your wonderful reviews on book 1, and noticed that two mention fantasy elements. One did a word search for "wizards", and the other found the word "necromancer" intrigung. 
Are your rankings higher in Urban Fantasy than in Police Procedurals? If they are, you might want to consider keeping the words "police procedurial" as a key word and meta tag, but consider picking another category path similar to Urban Fantasy.

All of my suggestions (opinions) in this thread have been in the spirit of trying to help you increase your visibilty to your most likely readers.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Doomed Muse said:


> As a data point, I showed your covers to my husband (who reads mostly fantasy with a little bit of mystery sometimes). He guessed the genres as historical mystery and western mystery (for Noon High, partially because of the title). He gave me a look like "are you serious" when I told him they were fantasy police procedural.
> 
> Just a single data point, but he is one reader who would look right over these covers, thinking they weren't the kind of book he reads (even though they are, as far as I can tell).


I find it amusing that so many people get hung up an the words for the title of the second book. 

You know there's a romantic suspense novel called High Noon? Very, famous one, really. Nora Roberts wrote it. It's about a cop.



Anyway, thanks.  If you feel like showing him the new ones when I post them just for further edification, I'd appreciate it.



JRTomlin said:


> Probably subtle tweaks are all they need and I won't mention Charlie Chaplin or pants.


The tower does not look like pants in any way. (Whether it looks like the top of a tower . . . well, who knows.) The hat is probably still going to look like a hat though. 



LisaGraceBooks said:


> I did look at your wonderful reviews on book 1, and noticed that two mention fantasy elements. One did a word search for "wizards", and the other found the word "necromancer" intrigung.
> Are your rankings higher in Urban fantasy than in police procedurals? If they are, you might want to consider keeping the words police procedurial as a kaey word and meta tag, but consider picking another category path similar to Urban Fantasy.


I have people who mention "wizard" and "necromancer" and "magic" and "goblin" and "urban fantasy" and "mix of genres" and "world different than ours" all listed across 5 reviews on Day Breaks. I only have a single review that doesn't note anything about fantasy. So . . . I have no idea what that means. I know someone found it using wizard thus. (The actual keyword is wizard cop or wizard detective, can;r remember right off the top of my head.) As an aside, that review irritated me because it's a three star with no negatives. I wish they'd told me what they didn't like. (Or given me four.) _C'est la vie._



> All of my suggestions (opinions) in this thread have been in the spirit of trying to help you increase your visibilty to your most likely readers.


Yep, I've got that. Thank you very much.


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> The tower does not look like pants in any way. (Whether it looks like the top of a tower . . . well, who knows.) The hat is probably still going to look like a hat though.


*muttering* Do too.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> *muttering* Do too.


No, the new tower. What we did is took the top 40% of the tower and made it the cover image. So the door is not there, and it is much, much wider, with more brick detail since it is blown up.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I find it amusing that so many people get hung up an the words for the title of the second book.
> 
> You know there's a romantic suspense novel called High Noon? Very, famous one, really. Nora Roberts wrote it. It's about a cop.


Well, on Nora Roberts' books, her brand is her name (or her name is her brand?). Bigger than the title on most of her books that I've seen. Gives people a fair idea of what the book is going to be like no matter the setting. 

Betsy


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> No, the new tower. What we did is took the top 40% of the tower and made it the cover image. So the door is not there, and it is much, much wider, with more brick detail since it is blown up.


Ah. Sorry. I won't mutter any more then. 

A new tower is a good idea.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mathew Reuther said:


> No, the new tower. What we did is took the top 40% of the tower and made it the cover image. So the door is not there, and it is much, much wider, with more brick detail since it is blown up.


You blew up the tower?   

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> Well, on Nora Roberts' books, her brand is her name (or her name is her brand?). Bigger than the title on most of her books that I've seen. Gives people a fair idea of what the book is going to be like no matter the setting.
> 
> Betsy


To be fair though does anyone have any idea how hard it is to come up with two word titles themed around day cycles that relate to the stories at hand? 

I could have called it


Spoiler



"the one with the bloody penis"


 but I didn't want to ruin anyone's lunch. (Apologies to those on the west coast who may be having lunch.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Mathew Reuther said:


> To be fair though does anyone have any idea how hard it is to come up with two word titles themed around day cycles that relate to the stories at hand?


Didn't say you shouldn't use it; just saying that using Nora Roberts' using it and you using it may not have the same result with potential readers.

Betsy


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

In the end it is a "reader issue" though. As in, I can't make people not assume sixguns.

The title makes sense for the story. The showdown is at noon. It takes place on the side of an observation tower.

And really, it's been 60 years since High Noon came out. I love Cooper and Kelly and all, but I think it's time to let them go. 

I'm ok with people net getting my titles sometimes. I'm hardly alone in that boat. Particularly considering the one-word title craze which we live in. I doubt half the people who look at half the tradpub list titles have half a clue what they're about.


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> I doubt half the people who look at half the tradpub list titles have half a clue what they're about.


Never mind those authors who put made-up words in their titles.


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## J Bridger (Jan 29, 2013)

Maybe with regards to the "High Noon" idea but, to me, it's such an iconic film and such a ubiquitous part of old West mythology that they dueled at "high noon" that it becomes an automatic association. I'm 28 and it still makes me think of the movie and the idea of the Old West. 

I will say seeing your covers that I thought it was some type of social satire because the covers reminded me of the original ones for "A Clockwork Orange" so if there's subversive humor in your fantasy then it has some of a match to it. I do think yellow and black does eye catch in a way because it's like street signs and, in America at least, we're programmed to react to it. Still, I didn't get police fantasy from it, but I did get subversion and a bit tongue-in-cheek.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

J Bridger said:


> Maybe with regards to the "High Noon" idea but, to me, it's such an iconic film and such a ubiquitous part of old West mythology that they dueled at "high noon" that it becomes an automatic association. I'm 28 and it still makes me think of the movie and the idea of the Old West.


And yet the title is Noon High. 



> I will say seeing your covers that I thought it was some type of social satire because the covers reminded me of the original ones for "A Clockwork Orange" so if there's subversive humor in your fantasy then it has some of a match to it. I do think yellow and black does eye catch in a way because it's like street signs and, in America at least, we're programmed to react to it. Still, I didn't get police fantasy from it, but I did get subversion and a bit tongue-in-cheek.


There's cop (black) humor.


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## J Bridger (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh I know, but my mind and I think a lot of other people's can't help but think the name "Noon High" is a play on old West stuff and that original title.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

J Bridger said:


> Oh I know, but my mind and I think a lot of other people's can't help but think the name "Noon High" is a play on old West stuff and that original title.


The world is full of words that are used in different orders at different times to mean different things.

I can't "fix" the association, and the title suits the work.

With 24 individual titles out in 2013 I am not overly concerned about Noon High somehow sinking my chances at getting people interested any more than I worry about them being addled when I drop the word "Gloaming" in a title next month.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

The new blurbs went up earlier, replacing the first person stuff. Hopefully they're a bit more clear for folks now. 

Day Breaks:

*When his first day on the Job in Homicide Unit turns up a body in a warehouse, it's time for Detective Third Class Griffon Dire to start asking questions. His partner's advice? When in doubt, start with the Goblin Court...*

Detective First Class Hargold Thief, veteran HU investigator, is Dire's new partner. With over twenty years on the Job, he knows what it takes to get things done. Now it's time for Thief to pass his skills on to Dire, one of the most promising new detectives on the force.

Together the detectives uncover a plot behind the murder of their victim which endangers the lives of thousands. The only way to stop the threat is to bring a sadistic killer to justice. Even if it means going through one of the most violent gangs in the city-state to do it.

***

Dire Calls Shorts offer readers a quick fix of police procedural action situated in the fantastic world of author Mathew Reuther's Thousand Kingdoms. Perfect for lunchtime, commute, or similar quick reads, the stories focus on the men and women of New Dagonia's finest. New tales of bravery and duty are available every two weeks, ensuring that fans are never stuck waiting too long for new episodes.

Reader Advisory: Dire Crimes stories contain themes which are appropriate for young adult to mature readers. Parents are encouraged to read the story before deciding if their YA readers are mature enough for the subject matter.

(Story length: 7,500 words; Story Reference: DC 1.0.1)

Noon High:

*After a year on the Job in Homicide Squad, Detective Third Class Griffon Dire is up for promotion. All that remains to be seen is if the review board sees fit to bump him to second class. Yet Dire soon discovers that simple interviews can be anything but...*

Detective First Class Hargold Thief, Dire's partner, is waiting with a case as Griffon emerges. The call leads to the scene of a brutal, bloody murder complete with a vindictive sexual overtone.

Dire and Thief have an idea of who killed their victim, but the question is: why? In the end, seeking the answer to that question will cost Griffon more than he expects as he discovers that some motives for murder seem far too reasonable...

***

Dire Calls Shorts offer readers a quick fix of police procedural action situated in the fantastic world of author Mathew Reuther's Thousand Kingdoms. Perfect for lunchtime, commute, or similar quick reads, the stories focus on the men and women of New Dagonia's finest. New tales of bravery and duty are available every two weeks, ensuring that fans are never stuck waiting too long for new episodes.

Reader Advisory: Dire Crimes stories contain themes which are appropriate for young adult to mature readers. Parents are encouraged to read the story before deciding if their YA readers are mature enough for the subject matter.

(Story length: 7,500 words; Story Reference: DC 1.0.2)

>>>

Now, I'm actually considering killing the starred separation and going with italics for the explanation of the shorts. That will give it separation, without burning space.

Thoughts on that?


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## DRMarvello (Dec 3, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> Now, I'm actually considering killing the starred separation and going with italics for the explanation of the shorts. That will give it separation, without burning space.
> 
> Thoughts on that?


If you like the look of italics, you could use that wherever italics are supported and resort to the asterisks where they aren't. I personally like the idea of compressing the description vertically and having the parenthetical effect of italics for the meta-description. Descriptions that are loaded with extraneous vertical white space and reviews make me nuts.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

DRMarvello said:


> If you like the look of italics, you could use that wherever italics are supported and resort to the asterisks where they aren't. I personally like the idea of compressing the description vertically and having the parenthetical effect of italics for the meta-description. Descriptions that are loaded with extraneous vertical white space and reviews make me nuts.


I ended up going with

*BOLD FIRST PARA*

Normal para

Normal Para

_Italic series rundown

(Italic story info)
_

I like the effect because with the length of my blurbs I'm getting the cutoff only after the series rundown, which provides people with the basics of "these are short, perfect for brief reading periods, and they are coming every two weeks" . . . since that's the strength of the line, I'm glad to have it out in the open again.

I have no idea if other people have experience with the author central product description updater, but in MY experience it has been awesome. Changes take effect fairly quickly, and you get to use bold and italic type to style your description just a touch. (Though it is a little squirrelly with line breaks at times.)


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## JRTomlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Mathew Reuther said:


> The world is full of words that are used in different orders at different times to mean different things.
> 
> I can't "fix" the association, and the title suits the work.
> 
> With 24 individual titles out in 2013 I am not overly concerned about Noon High somehow sinking my chances at getting people interested any more than I worry about them being addled when I drop the word "Gloaming" in a title next month.


Well, sorry to get back on topic but I like the new version of the cover much better and it no longer makes me want to go watch a Charlie Chaplin movie. 

ETA: And I agree that Author Central rocks for updating your description.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

JRTomlin said:


> Well, sorry to get back on topic but I like the new version of the cover much better and it no longer makes me want to go watch a Charlie Chaplin movie.
> 
> ETA: And I agree that Author Central rocks for updating your description.


The latest and greatest version of Day Breaks-updated last night-includes the "straight" wand for the "I" as well as an updated hat (which was modeled after a 40's style, hence the really broad band and lack of Charlie Chaplin urges), and a new wand (which makes me much happier than the old one, since it has a little bit of texture to it now), plus a little bit of "magic" (grunged stars) coming out of the end of the wand. (Which to be honest I tried to resist, but I acquiesced in the end, and there they are.)

So, hopefully, fingers crossed, the new versions will impart a bit more of the genre mix.

I'm pretty happy with them. I liked the originals for their throwback nature, but I think the incorporation of some more modern design considerations will, as a whole, help the series as I continue to publish it.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Mathew Reuther said:


> The latest and greatest version of Day Breaks-updated last night-includes the "straight" wand for the "I" as well as an updated hat (which was modeled after a 40's style, hence the really broad band and lack of Charlie Chaplin urges), and a new wand (which makes me much happier than the old one, since it has a little bit of texture to it now), plus a little bit of "magic" (grunged stars) coming out of the end of the wand. (Which to be honest I tried to resist, but I acquiesced in the end, and there they are.)
> 
> So, hopefully, fingers crossed, the new versions will impart a bit more of the genre mix.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with them. I liked the originals for their throwback nature, but I think the incorporation of some more modern design considerations will, as a whole, help the series as I continue to publish it.


I think the stars are a good idea because I had no idea until this moment that the item under the hat was a wand. I stared at it a while when I first dropped into this thread and eventually decided it must be an object particular to the story. A bracelet, maybe. So stars -- good idea! FWIW, I like all the cover changes you've made.

I do wonder if you're making the right choice to privilege PP over fantasy, just b/c folks who dislike fantasy are so extremely dismissive of it - almost repulsed by it -- but it's hard to know exactly how to market genre mixes. Beats me.


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## Mathew Reuther (Jan 14, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> I think the stars are a good idea because I had no idea until this moment that the item under the hat was a wand. I stared at it a while when I first dropped into this thread and eventually decided it must be an object particular to the story. A bracelet, maybe. So stars -- good idea! FWIW, I like all the cover changes you've made.


I'll let Bridgette know that the stars are winners then. 



> I do wonder if you're making the right choice to privilege PP over fantasy, just b/c folks who dislike fantasy are so extremely dismissive of it - almost repulsed by it -- but it's hard to know exactly how to market genre mixes. Beats me.


The choice is in the feel of the stories. And in the end, the reality is that I'm not choosing one or the other. I am choosing both . . . and tilting my head slightly in one direction.

They sit in both cats on Amazon, and are marketed as both, plus have keywords relevant to the types of stories in each.

In addition, my personal persective is that the "eww fantasy" has receded a bit in the past decade. You have a lot more mainstream fantasy out there, and if you look at it, there's a popular cop/fantasy on network TV. (In addition to another series which blurs those same types of lines a little on a different network.) I think there's nothing wrong with the specific mix, nor anything overly odd about pointing to the fact that at the heart the stories revolve around the police officers, and not the world they live in. (Though, granted, the scene I happen to be in the middle of writing would have a much different "feel" if not for the magic element, so there's no escaping the fact that it's an urban fantasy.)

So, yes, you're right: they are absolutely, unreservedly fantasy, with magic that is, every once in a while, a big deal to the story. That may turn some people off.

But the tales are PP. They follow the officers and the crimes they investigate.

In any case I'm just hoping to generate good word of mouth, because I've gotten some raves from people who don't normally read either and ended up picking it up for whatever reason. In the end, I think they work, and it's just about getting folks hooked in. Which is why I am leveraging select with some of the shorts (not all of them though, giving people a reason to buy) and keeping the novels for broad release.

But isn't it always about that? We all struggle to get our unique blend of whatever it is out and hope people like it. 

Thanks for the thoughts!


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