# The "1st Novel + $9.99 Price + Target: $100K" All or Nothing Project (RELEASED)



## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

*UPDATE 1.5:* "Invinciman" Released: Amazon Kindle | Google Play | 



 | Kobo
*UPDATE 1.4:* Submitted to KDP (Reply #210)
*UPDATE 1.3:* KDP + Business Issues (Reply #202)
*UPDATE 1.2:* Q&A #1: Criticisms (Reply #154)
*UPDATE 1.1:* Title + Cover + Blurb Posted (Reply #99)
---







Cliffs:

- Despite legal, financial, and academic difficulties (or maybe because of them), I started writing my first novel a year ago.
- One year later, it's almost finished, and I'm just wrapping up editing.
- It's a young adult, action-adventure, science fiction, superhero conglomeration of a novel, focusing in on modern themes like AI + robotics.
- 100,000 words.
- The branding (title + cover) is pretty strong, IMO.
- The story is deep: a psychological drama that could potentially have mass appeal, and might solicit good reviews.
- After consulting with the pros on Kboards, I've decided to go wide on a $9.99 price point.
- Knowing my pace (I have the George R. R. Martin curse), I'll likely only be able to dish out one full-length novel a year.
- So in order for me to make writing a viable career path (and since I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, though probably not for much longer), I need to make at least $100K in year one to pursue this full-time.
- I've taken it very seriously, thus far. I've registered a corporation ($625), opened up a business banking account ($72/year), have had the domain registered for years, will be copyrighting (and later trademarking) the work(s), and have paid $2K for a trad-pub editor.

---

Now, the obvious insecurity is that I'll release this thing next week to crickets, and may immediately be backpedaling on the $9.99 price point. Worst case scenario, I'll barely make back the $3K I'll be spending on the pre-publishing phase (which I'm confident is the _least_ I'll be able to make).

But I'm hedging my bets very heavily on the power of the branding, and will set aside a decent amount for the marketing phase. I've gotten some good advice from Kboards about marketing aggressively vs. marketing smart, and will definitely be experimenting with keywords on Amazon Marketing Services (and possibly Facebook Ads too). A very real handicap/blind spot with being a new author (as are star ratings, reviews, and critical reception in general).

The Hail Mary is if one of the distributors (Amazon, in particular) likes the branding + price point, and gives it featured advertising. Obviously, this isn't something I can count on, but for a target of $100K, I think something around those lines would need to happen.

All-in-all, I've done everything I possibly can in the pre-publishing phase to make this thing successful, but it seems to be a lottery ticket anyway. I just gotta put it out there and see what happens.

*Also, a quick shoutout to Elizabeth Ann West, Colleen Sheehan, Joe Nobody, and the rest of the $9.99 authors out there. Time to raise the value of self-published works!


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

Have you done anything yet to build your fanbase? It's never too early to find your readers and get them hooked before you publish.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Will you be publishing a paper version as well?


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Hey, this is wonderful to see. GOOD LUCK!


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Felicia Beasley said:


> Have you done anything yet to build your fanbase? It's never too early to find your readers and get them hooked before you publish.


Without a book?! (Haha) One of my other gigs is writing for an MMA website, and I'm on a similar message board which has a TON of traffic, so between those and Twitter, I could get a bit of initial exposure there. Definitely some good advice; thanks!



Shawna Canon said:


> Will you be publishing a paper version as well?


For sure. I'll release the digital copies first, and then will have to figure out interior formatting for print since Vellum is a little bit away from their Vellum for Print release, but will likely have it out in the following month.



Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> Hey, this is wonderful to see. GOOD LUCK!


Thanks Colleen!


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Best of luck to you. I'll be watching your results with interest.


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## Lisa Blackwood (Feb 1, 2015)

Watching with interest.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Good luck! It's going to be tough at that price point. The people on Kboards who price there don't pull six figures a year I don't think. Their goals are much lower...


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Ricky Leone said:


> All-in-all, I've done everything I possibly can in the pre-publishing phase to make this thing successful


Are you sure? Here are some questions I would ask of someone trying to get out of the gates hot which you appear to be judging by your expectations.

Have you checked the ranks of the top books in this genre category to see if they support the price point and desired income level you're looking to achieve?

Have you set up a mailing list and created an incentive for people to join?

Have you given the book to a few unbiased beta readers in the proper demographic to see what they think of it?

Have you posted your cover and blurb for unbiased feedback?

Have you lined up pre-release reviews?

Do you have a (written) marketing plan for the first thirty days of release?

Anyway, that's where my thoughts would be if I were in your shoes. Best of luck. I'll be watching with interest.


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## vanessawriter (Sep 14, 2016)

Best of luck!


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

J. Tanner said:


> Are you sure? Here are some questions I would ask of someone trying to get out of the gates hot which you appear to be judging by your expectations.
> 
> Have you checked the ranks of the top books in this genre category to see if they support the price point and desired income level you're looking to achieve?
> 
> ...


Just a note, these are good points to consider


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

Wow, you are gutsy! Good luck. I figure a reasonable marketing budget is 10-15% of my sales. $100k would be a $15k advertising budget for me. What are you planning? Whatever it is, the branding is a good start, but your story will sell your book. Great story (even at $9.99 I suppose) equals sales, moderate story, you'll be treading water and that marketing plan will be crucial.


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## X. Aratare (Feb 5, 2013)

J. Tanner said:


> Are you sure? Here are some questions I would ask of someone trying to get out of the gates hot which you appear to be judging by your expectations.
> 
> Have you checked the ranks of the top books in this genre category to see if they support the price point and desired income level you're looking to achieve?
> 
> ...


Just as a gentle addition to this, I've only known Joe Nobody sell at that price point and he started long ago in a genre that would bear that price point.

My understanding is that you are a new author, no fans, no name recognition, and you're hoping that people will be so impressed with branding and blurb that they will pay four to five times what other authors are selling in your genre? If you're going into KU, it might not matter as you will get more page reads, etc. but if you're just putting up a 100k book at $9.99, eh, you might want to rethink that as a lot of people might not want to take a chance on you simply because of the price.

I hope it works for you though!


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## Chrissy (Mar 31, 2014)

I wish you a great deal of luck and much success.

One thing I learned on Oprah years ago. _Don't accept no from people who don't have the power to say yes._

By that I mean, naysayers may believe you can't but they don't have the power to make your a "success" (however you define success) only YOU and READERS do.

So you go show 'em how it's done! 

Again wishing you all the best.


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## Lysandra_Lorde (Mar 6, 2016)

I'd like to add from personal data, that most consumers of amazon e-books do not understand the pricing structures for the books in which they buy. Like, a TON of them do not know that authors make more percent wise at a higher price point. This is something I think perpetuates the gut reaction to balk at higher price points. Even the jump from .99 to 2.99 is a struggle.

I've polled my own readers, and I'm your jane-everyday author, so my writing is nothing to applaud. But even for the people that actively read my books, that know me... the vast, vast majority only want to pay .99 to 2.99. There are outliers, but the percentage of them is so disgustingly small it doesn't seem like it would be enough to keep your book perpetuating sales.


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## Fel Beasley (Apr 1, 2014)

X. Aratare said:


> Just as a gentle addition to this, I've only known Joe Nobody sell at that price point and he started long ago in a genre that would bear that price point.
> 
> My understanding is that you are a new author, no fans, no name recognition, and you're hoping that people will be so impressed with branding and blurb that they will pay four to five times what other authors are selling in your genre? If you're going into KU, it might not matter as you will get more page reads, etc. but if you're just putting up a 100k book at $9.99, eh, you might want to rethink that as a lot of people might not want to take a chance on you simply because of the price.
> 
> I hope it works for you though!


This is a good point to remember. Both Joe Nobody and Elizabeth Ann West publish in specific niches with a smaller but less price conscious reader base. I really hope you succeed. But please have a back-up plan in mind if things don't work out as you are currently planning. I'd hate to see you lose your enthusiasm and give-up prematurely.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

From what I have seen, the people who declare themselves as selling e-books at $9.99 don't have a very high ranking on the Amazon.com store. As a first time author, and without even seeing whether your writing is such that would attract readers, I think you are expecting far too much. Although there are a few writers who make six figures in their first year, they are not only few and far between, they don't usually do it with only one book.

As to Amazon featuring your book, you would have be selling a lot and have a lot of reviews before they will even think about doing that and even then they will want to discount it.

I watch with interest.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> Most of what Amazon do is send out a blast to the people who follow you. No followers, no email.
> 
> They send out emails to people based on their viewing activity. This mainly involves what they looked at and didn't buy, and what happens to be on its also-bought list. New books dont have an also-bought list for a week or so, until it kicks in, and then it depends on who is buying the book as to what gets added to the list. Its usually weeks after release before your book gets onto an email.
> 
> ...


I was thinking more of their daily deals promotion which they sometimes offer to authors with a popular book and a lot of reviews. Even then, it is restricted to certain countries. I got one year before last, for the UK site, but getting one for the US site doesn't happen often.

And of course, they send emails to people who might have looked at the book's product page anyway, which is why I keep getting a whole list of my own books!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I forgot to ask, why have you paid out over $600 to set up a corporation?


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the well wishes and great thoughts! Will post an update this weekend (likely containing the title + cover + blurb) after getting done with editing.



Doglover said:


> I forgot to ask, why have you paid out over $600 to set up a corporation?


This is a good question (and similar to a thread I made a while ago asking for advice on this). After some research (and by research, I mean using the SimpleTax calculator), if my goal is indeed to make $100K in year one, a corporation makes more sense to save on taxes.

Having a corporation will result in two taxes (corporation tax + dividend tax), but where I live (in Ontario), it still works out less than personal income tax. $88K seems to be a good line, I've surmised, between setting up a corporation or not for tax advantages. Also, having a corporation is also beneficial because you can specifically choose how much of a dividend you'll want to issue out to yourself each year, and so you can organize your yearly income for tax purposes as well. Potentially, the possibility for income-splitting is also there if you make a family member a shareholder.

Of course, this is only necessary if you're planning on going into the six-figure range. Otherwise (and as I was informed in the thread I made), setting up a corporation could be overkill if your yearly income is staying in the five-figure range.


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

Okay...
Okay. Here is my perspective on everything you have posted:



Ricky Leone said:


> - It's a young adult, action-adventure, science fiction, superhero conglomeration of a novel, focusing in on modern themes like AI + robotics.


Take a quick look on Amazon.com. The keywords you've listed above are popular categories for young teens-tens of thousands of books are already on sale. All the established authors with fanbases with their books at 4 stars and higher price at around 4,99USD to 6,99USD. The majority price far under this. Your book is going to stick out like a sore thumb. It will generate interest because we're used to the knee-jerk reaction of thinking higher prices means higher quality, but the kind of readers who spend 9,99USD on ebooks will have the benefit of context, and realise you're a new author very, _very_ quickly and start looking up reviews of your book (Goodreads, etc) to see if your book is worth it.



Ricky Leone said:


> - The branding (title + cover) is pretty strong, IMO.


The image you posted shunts your book into a niche category. It won't have the commercial readership appeal. There is a specific look on book covers right now. Those who shun these conventions do so knowing they will lose sales from the mainstream readership because of it. I suggest posting your book cover and blurb on here to get feedback.



Ricky Leone said:


> - The story is deep: a psychological drama that could potentially have mass appeal, and might solicit good reviews.


Unless in the Crime Fiction/Thriller category psychological elements may add depth to a book, but this is not what the commercial readership (outside the Crime Fiction/Thriller genres) seek as a rule. The mainstream seeks out escapism-books that _appear_ unique. Good reviews do not equal sales. Mass appeal equals the potential for lots of sales.



Ricky Leone said:


> After consulting with the pros on Kboards, I've decided to go wide on a $9.99 price point.


Consulting with peers can be helpful. But they are not you. Their books are not your books, and their experiences are not yours. I see everybody on kBoards as professionals-myself included. Reading back through this thread, a great deal of professionals have spoken up to offer advice. Take it. Then make the decision you can live with.



Ricky Leone said:


> - Knowing my pace (I have the George R. R. Martin curse), I'll likely only be able to dish out one full-length novel a year.
> - So in order for me to make writing a viable career path (and since I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, but probably for not much longer), I need to make at least $100K in year one to pursue this full-time.


Nobody cares....until they care. I write slowly and my readers hate me a little for it, but it is what it is. Nobody cares if you need to make 100k to do this full-time. Readers of mainstream fiction happily say, 'I'll never spend more than 0.99 on an ebook,' not realising they're basically saying they are willing to pay someone who has worked countless hours and for anything up to year 0.99. If they found out this was paid to someone working for a corporation, they'd be horrified, and demand that person be paid fairly. You'll find those who read in niche genres are more willing to wait for what they want.



Ricky Leone said:


> - I've taken it very seriously, thus far. I've registered a corporation ($625), opened up a business banking account ($72/year), have had the domain registered for years, will be copyrighting (and later trademarking) the work(s), and have paid $2K for a trad-pub editor.


No doubt you have. We all take it seriously to varying degrees depending on personality. But your expectations are, in my opinion, leading you to a hard lesson.



Ricky Leone said:


> Now, the obvious insecurity is that I'll release this thing next week to crickets, and may immediately be backpedaling on the $9.99 price point. Worst case scenario, I'll barely make back the $3K I'll be spending on the pre-publishing phase (which I'm confident is the _least_ I'll be able to make).


MOST BOOKS DO NOT SELL. That is not me being pessimistic. That is me being honest. You are making an assumption your book will be in that minority because you have done everything to the best of your ability and followed current publishing trends. There are millions of books on Amazon.com (and elsewhere). To make a living wage off one book you need to be in the Top5000 at a price point over 5.99USD. This takes time. The odd author finds luck, gets there with little help, but not many of them last beyond a year or two when the luck runs out.

You are giving the impression your book is better than millions of others. That is a big statement for a debut to make. I understand you want to convey your value, we all do, but do not make the mistake of thinking we all decided we're cheap and priced accordingly. The low prices you see are tens of thousands of creative, insightful people making the best business decision they could-what does that tell you about the current book buying market?



Ricky Leone said:


> But I'm hedging my bets very heavily on the power of the branding, and will set aside a decent amount for the marketing phase.


Don't. This is a bad bet. Marketing is an art based mostly on tricks. Unless in your previous job you were a marketing genius.



Ricky Leone said:


> I've gotten some good advice from Kboards about marketing aggressively vs. marketing smart, and will definitely be experimenting with keywords on Amazon Marketing Services (and possibly Facebook Ads too). A very real handicap/blind spot with being a new author (as are star ratings, reviews, and critical reception in general).


As a new author, you should not be experimenting this heavily. You should be writing book two. Unless you only plan to publish this one book and it is the crowning glory of your writing career.



Ricky Leone said:


> The Hail Mary is if one of the distributors (Amazon, in particular) likes the branding + price point, and gives it featured advertising. Obviously, this isn't something I can count on, but for a target of $100K, I think something around those lines would need to happen.


Yes, and established writers who have made Amazon lots of money over the years are routinely ignored. Why would they make the business decision to promote an unknown who is statistically likely to fail because of a nice book cover and high price point (something historically Amazon had proven not to like)? That was harsh, yes, but true. The algorithms promote books for a list of parameters (discussed extensively on these boards) and your current strategy means you will fall outside of them.



Ricky Leone said:


> All-in-all, I've done everything I possibly can in the pre-publishing phase to make this thing successful, but it seems to be a lottery ticket anyway. I just gotta put it out there and see what happens.


I'm about to be harsh again. You have no platform (that you have mentioned). Nothing. It is important, crucial, and you have made no mention of it-how will you find your readers? There are so many threads for newbies on this board with the BASICS of starting out as an indie that for someone like me it can be irritating. But they are there for a purpose, and a damn good one, and the people who comment in them are kind enough to take time out of their busy schedules to help. Find them, read them, and if your mind is still where it is then you must know something the hundreds of us who earn enough to do this for a living do not.

Your pricing strategy is at odds with how much money you want to make in the current online book selling climate. The educated business decision most make in your position is to price in line with market trends.

My advice at this stage is to;

Write a short story prequel and charge 0.99 for it. Gather newsletter subscriptions in the back matter. This will also give you a better idea of how people respond to your brand, and more importantly, your writing. If your style does not resonate on a mass scale....
Carry on as you are, but consider lowering your price to 4,99USD for your launch.
Do not publish the book until you have another book written and available. You will have more options to work with.

But of course, it's always best to dance to the beat of your own drum. 
May your hard work find success.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Ricky Leone said:


> Thanks everyone for the well wishes and great thoughts! Will post an update this weekend (likely containing the title + cover + blurb) after getting done with editing.
> 
> This is a good question (and similar to a thread I made a while ago asking for advice on this). After some research (and by research, I mean using the SimpleTax calculator), if my goal is indeed to make $100K in year one, a corporation makes more sense to save on taxes.
> 
> ...


I admire your enthusiasm, but I'm afraid I don't think it's likely you'll hit your income goal with one book at 9.99. The only way I could see you remotely having a shot at this, would be to also spend tens of thousands of dollars on FB ads and other online marketing. That's how you could build your branding to support the higher price. You should also be building your mailing list, driving ads to a landing page with your cover and first few chapters available to download. If the book is breakout quality to support the higher 9.99, then these people will be hooked and return to buy. However, it's going to have to be phenomenal for them to pay 9.99 for a new author. There are many readers who won't buy until an author has several books out.

You may find what I'm going to suggest very hard to believe.....but if your book is as compelling as you say it is and if it's 100k or so lengthwise, you might actually have a shot of hitting your income goal......if you put the book in KU, and charge .99 for it. I know, shocking idea. But go look at the top 100 right now and watch it for a bit. Take note of how many Indie books in the top 100 are priced at .99, and look at their length. The .99 gets loads of sales and downloads which puts you at a higher ranking and the quality of the book ensures that people read through quickly, which gives you pagereads money far in excess of .99. You make your money in volume of downloads and pagereads if the book is good. This also helps you to build a wide base of readers. You won't see that happening at 9.99--because realistically if you expect to hit 100k in earnings on one book, the problem is that book needs to appeal to a large audience. Both Elizabeth Ann West and Joe Nobody get that price but for specialized niche audiences.....they are not earning 100k in one year off one 9.99 book.

Your best shot of hitting your goal income wise and of reaching a huge audience is to price at .99 and put it in KU. As strange as that seems.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Ricky Leone said:


> After some research (and by research, I mean using the SimpleTax calculator), if my goal is indeed to make $100K in year one, a corporation makes more sense to save on taxes.
> 
> Having a corporation will result in two taxes (corporation tax + dividend tax), but where I live (in Ontario), it still works out less than personal income tax. $88K seems to be a good line, I've surmised, between setting up a corporation or not for tax advantages. Also, having a corporation is also beneficial because you can specifically choose how much of a dividend you'll want to issue out to yourself each year, and so you can organize your yearly income for tax purposes as well. Potentially, the possibility for income-splitting is also there if you make a family member a shareholder.
> 
> Of course, this is only necessary if you're planning on going into the six-figure range. Otherwise (and as I was informed in the thread I made), setting up a corporation could be overkill if your yearly income is staying in the five-figure range.


I disagree that a corporation is necessary if you are PLANNING on going into the six figure range. It is only necessary once you actually get there. That $625 would have been better spent on promotion.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> I admire your enthusiasm, but I'm afraid I don't think it's likely you'll hit your income goal with one book at 9.99. The only way I could see you remotely having a shot at this, would be to also spend tens of thousands of dollars on FB ads and other online marketing. That's how you could build your branding to support the higher price. You should also be building your mailing list, driving ads to a landing page with your cover and first few chapters available to download. If the book is breakout quality to support the higher 9.99, then these people will be hooked and return to buy. However, it's going to have to be phenomenal for them to pay 9.99 for a new author. There are many readers who won't buy until an author has several books out.
> 
> You may find what I'm going to suggest very hard to believe.....but if your book is as compelling as you say it is and if it's 100k or so lengthwise, you might actually have a shot of hitting your income goal......if you put the book in KU, and charge .99 for it. I know, shocking idea. But go look at the top 100 right now and watch it for a bit. Take note of how many Indie books in the top 100 are priced at .99, and look at their length. The .99 gets loads of sales and downloads which puts you at a higher ranking and the quality of the book ensures that people read through quickly, which gives you pagereads money far in excess of .99. You make your money in volume of downloads and pagereads if the book is good. This also helps you to build a wide base of readers. You won't see that happening at 9.99--because realistically if you expect to hit 100k in earnings on one book, the problem is that book needs to appeal to a large audience. Both Elizabeth Ann West and Joe Nobody get that price but for specialized niche audiences.....they are not earning 100k in one year off one 9.99 book.
> 
> Your best shot of hitting your goal income wise and of reaching a huge audience is to price at .99 and put it in KU. As strange as that seems.


I don't know about the .99c, but I certainly agree with putting it in KU. For an unknown, it is the best way to get your book read and gather new readers. A more sensible price would be $3.99, with perhaps a few days launch price of .99 cents. And you are right: it takes thousands in advertising to make that sort of money with one book.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Doglover said:


> I don't know about the .99c, but I certainly agree with putting it in KU. For an unknown, it is the best way to get your book read and gather new readers. A more sensible price would be $3.99, with perhaps a few days launch price of .99 cents. And you are right: it takes thousands in advertising to make that sort of money with one book.


I'm with you, believe me. I truly hate the .99 price point and rarely use it myself except for occasional sales or on release for a few days. But, my books are short, so the strategy I mentioned wouldn't work as well. I am seeing it work very well for those with very well written books, that appeal to a big audience, so bigger high concept stuff, and the key is length.....I know a few people using this strategy and their book lengths range from a low of 80k to over 100k. What they have in common is a compelling story that is generating word of mouth--people reading it in one sitting. Obviously not many books can do that, but the ones that can and are in KU and using .99 for visibility and ranking are doing well. It's all about the book though. This won't work for most people because their books just aren't compelling enough to be sticky.....and the strategy depends on being sticky at a high rank. None of my books are long enough or compelling enough to try this. LOL


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2017)

Indie books are not less expensive because they are not worth more. They are less expensive because writers don't need to charge more to make money. One of the things that is attractive to an indie reader is the price point. They can buy 3-4 good books for what the Big Five charges for 1. And we can provide them with inexpensive books because our production costs are far lower. 
If you goal is $100k per year, I can promise that you'll need more than one title. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Probably not. Charging more won't get you there. You just make more selling fewer copies. I've seen one or two indies who do well at a higher price point. And one or two making bank off one title. So there is that possibility. But most successful indies have multiple titles at a lower price. 
But hey. Maybe you will be the exception.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

PamelaKelley said:


> I'm with you, believe me. I truly hate the .99 price point and rarely use it myself except for occasional sales or on release for a few days. But, my books are short, so the strategy I mentioned wouldn't work as well. I am seeing it work very well for those with very well written books, that appeal to a big audience, so bigger high concept stuff, and the key is length.....I know a few people using this strategy and their book lengths range from a low of 80k to over 100k. What they have in common is a compelling story that is generating word of mouth--people reading it in one sitting. Obviously not many books can do that, but the ones that can and are in KU and using .99 for visibility and ranking are doing well. It's all about the book though. This won't work for most people because their books just aren't compelling enough to be sticky.....and the strategy depends on being sticky at a high rank. None of my books are long enough or compelling enough to try this. LOL


Agreed, but I do think it works well if you have lots of titles. If people read a book and enjoy it, they usually look at the rest available by that same author. If they find none, they soon wander away and forget that author ever existed. That's where mailing lists come in, but even so, one title won't do it. I did a .99 cent launch price once, which did quite well, but it hurt like hell to let it go at that price!


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

Doglover said:


> Agreed, but I do think it works well if you have lots of titles. If people read a book and enjoy it, they usually look at the rest available by that same author. If they find none, they soon wander away and forget that author ever existed. That's where mailing lists come in, but even so, one title won't do it. I did a .99 cent launch price once, which did quite well, but it hurt like hell to let it go at that price!


Actually one title will do it. Several of the people I know used it on one book. But, like I said, it's extremely rare for a book to do that well.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Hey Ricky!

Good luck with your first book! To make $100,000 you need 14,285 sales. Which is 1,190 sales in a month. 

My experience with higher pricepoints ( I started in December 2014 with $8.24 and have now released 5 titles and a boxed set over $ is that it takes time to establish a presence there. Not saying a lower price point will recover your $100k any faster. 

Slow writing can still work... if you share chapters or monthly updates with readers. Even without a book out yet, you can test some appeal by putting the book on preorder for a short time, put a chapter or 2 up on your site and see how many preorders you can garner. That was also what made me believe I could do higher price points, I put a preorder up and got some. It was really hard to listen to my self-doubt and the narrow opinions of others telling me I COULDN'T do this when I had books selling on preorder. But I also had 4 other titles out in that genre (novellas) and strong keywords (Mr. Darcy). You will need to really know how do readers who love your kind of book find them? Solve that and you can price however you want.  

Good luck to you, sounds like you have really tried to make a plan to go out there and try this. No matter what happens, it's a step in the right direction: forward. And you can always make adjustments and change your strategies down the line to fit your production schedule or needs.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree with Miss Fletcher and others who have tried to counsel you about your plans. I'm all for having big dreams, but that's all they are. Dreams. What you need are reasonable goals and a clear expectation of what you can achieve with them. I don't think you have that. I don't see you gaining nearly the number of sales you expect with a YA book like that, wide and priced that high, and a single book for at least a year, by an unknown.

But, heck. Maybe you're the one in a million (or I guess it's at least four million self-publishing by now) who hit it out of the park. Too risky to base a business off of, in my opinion, but it's your choice. There will be tissues by the door when you need them.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

Assuming that the main genre for the OP's novel is fantasy->superhero, most authors tend to price at $4.99. It seems to me that readers in the genre search out books that actually feature cape-wearing superheroes and will give new authors a chance at that price point. I went with $3.99 for _Repulsive_, but I'll probably price the sequels higher.

Some of the more established brands do $5.99. _Wearing the Cape_ is $7.99. The only $9.99 books I see are traditionally published.

I think there's definitely money to be made in the genre. By my very, very prawny standards, I was quite happy with what mine did, and others have done a lot better than me. It's hard for me to imagine $100k, though.

Again, best of luck to the OP.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> Worst case scenario, I'll barely make back the $3K I'll be spending on the pre-publishing phase (which I'm confident is the least I'll be able to make).


I hardly think that's the worst-case scenario! I'll bet that most self-published authors haven't earned $3,000 on any of their books. Indeed,I doubt that a majority have earned as much as $300 on a single book.

You might have been able to do this in 2011 or 2012, which in my experience was the high point of self-publishing, before Kindle Select came to live with us. From a few hundred thousand self-pubbers, there are now several million, and the prices we can command have dropped considerably. Of course there are exceptions, just as there are in traditional publishing. But for the most part they are individuals who for all practical purposes have created their own genre (J K Rowling, Lee Child), not those tilling the same old fields.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

It's also just really common to make mistakes on your first book because you don't truly understand the algorithms and marketing for indie ebooks. I came in from the traditionally published world and I thought I knew what I was doing, but I didn't. One of the things I did was price the book at $4.99 right out of the gate with no sale period to tickle the algorithms. I also used traditional publishing marketing channels instead of indie ones. And I gave it a cover that was more artsy, in line with some traditionally published books that had a big marketing push behind them. Lots of mistakes. I hope you're not terribly discouraged as a writer, but making plans to quit your day job on one indie book is like making plans to quit your day job after buying a big stack of lottery tickets...and even if this book DOES hit it out of the park, you can't rely on that. Success can dry up FAST, leaving you scrambling and stressed.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

I would just like to add...check out Author Earnings Report to get a feel for how Indies are doing as a whole compared to the small data set you have been exposed to here on kboards. 

What everyone said above is excellent advice. Making it big on one book, the first book, is extremely rare.
Good luck on your endeavor.


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## Remington Kane (Feb 19, 2011)

I'll buy a copy of your book. You got guts!


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## 77820 (Jun 19, 2014)

Ricky Leone said:


> - So in order for me to make writing a viable career path (and since I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, but probably for not much longer), I need to make at least $100K in year one to pursue this full-time.


Over 14,000 e-books sold in the first year (based on $9.99 per copy @ 70% royalty.) Very impressive. I truly wish you the best.


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

OP, go for it!

No one ever succeeds by listening to all the people who say you can't do something for this and that reason. 

Some of these people have valid points--check on them. If nothing else, you'll learn something useful.

But from reading this board for a while, most people are dead set against higher price points. They'll give reasons, valid reasons for them. Listen to everything with a grain of salt and make your own path.

If I could go back in time, I wouldn't listen to much of anything anyone told me, because almost all of them were wrong.

Best of luck to you.


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## Scout (Jun 2, 2014)

Congrats on finishing your first book. Well done!


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> I just found this:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-you-want-to-pay-for-an-e-book-by-a-first-time-author
> 
> Only 4 posts so far, but worth keeping an eye on.


Oh, yes, another of those "I won't spend more than a $2.99 for a new author. I want their books for free!" These people are insulting. The only ones who respond to these things are the cheapskates. I refuse to call them bargain hunters. People who complain about a lousy $1.99 or $2.99 for any ebook are just cheap.

I'll also bet these same people don't read the sample, which would give them a big clue as to whether or not they would like the book before they spend their incredibly small amount of money.

OP, there _are_ people who will pay higher prices. Find them, and don't listen to the loud-mouthed cheapskates.


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## Fill in the Blank Author (Jul 12, 2015)

Obviously, there are no guarantees and there are exceptions of every rule. That said, there's a wealth of information on "best practices" that will give an author her/his best chance at success, including sound advice within this thread. I'd encourage you not to flout it. Also, consider that an author is compensated for her/his work by total revenue, not per-unit revenue.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2017)

I suppose one way to look at it is that you're not really hurting your odds too much no matter what you do. In the entire world - counting both traditional and indie novelists - there are only about 10k-12k people making living through the sales of their books. This is fewer than the number of people playing professional sports in the US. So when you become a novelist who earns a living through your writing, you enter an elite group. As with any elite group, most don't get in.

So charge whatever you want. Network or don't. Have a professional cover made or do it yourself. Because the harsh reality is that you won't have changed the odds by very much either way. This may sound negative. But it's not. Because people are still out there trying to beat the odds and get into the NBA or the NFL, even knowing their chances.

I *can *tell you that if you do make it, the reality is so much better than the fantasy. But ignoring the wisdom and experience of those in the group of which you are trying to become a part, isn't the best of ideas.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

My three best pieces of pricing advice are:

1) Price for your genre. Look at the prices of good-selling (not bestselling) indie authors in your genre, and also at where the Amazon Publishing imprint for your genre prices. That's probably a sweet spot. 

2) Remember that the right price is the one where you make the most profit. Keep emotion and the idea of what your book is "worth" out of it. 

3) The key thing for any author, but especially a new one, is visibility. You can have the greatest book ever, but if nobody sees it, nobody will buy it. That's also why you need a great, hooky cover/blurb/premise. Something that catches the eye and the imagination. Price also influences visibility. That's why some people price at 99 cents.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Linda_B said:


> Oh, yes, another of those "I won't spend more than a $2.99 for a new author. I want their books for free!" These people are insulting. The only ones who respond to these things are the cheapskates. I refuse to call them bargain hunters. People who complain about a lousy $1.99 or $2.99 for any ebook are just cheap.
> 
> I'll also bet these same people don't read the sample, which would give them a big clue as to whether or not they would like the book before they spend their incredibly small amount of money.
> 
> OP, there _are_ people who will pay higher prices. Find them, and don't listen to the loud-mouthed cheapskates.


I'm not sure what good insulting an entire group of people does but ... okay.
I should point out that I have no problem spending money, I'm hardly a cheapskate and I tip like a rockstar (a generous one). I have oodles of expendable income.
You know what? I want a free, KU or .99 first in series book as a loss leader. Period. There's a reason that's a tried and true technique ... because it works. I want to read it and then make my decision. I never do the "Look Inside" thing. I base my choices off cover and blurb. I don't even read reviews because I like to make a judgment myself and not have others inform my opinion. If I like it, I will totally go buy the rest of them. I won't even blink twice and I'll buy them all in a day. That being said, I won't pay more than $5.99 for an ebook. There are only two authors I will pay $5.99 for (Jana DeLeon and Heather Graham). I have one series of books I still collect in hardcover, endless expendable income and yet I still want a free or KU first in series before I'll spend money.
I can't explain it but it is what it is. I know I'm not alone in that practice.
No one says you have to price your book low. That's certainly your opinion and you have every right to do what you want ... but when people start asking what works best for a greater number of authors, people are going to answer with what works for a greater number of authors. I think that's simply the way of the world.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Okay, I'm not going to say you can't do this. For all I know you can. I've seen several other authors on these boards use strategies that I wouldn't use and have amazing success with them.

I will say, $9.99 out of the gate for an unknown author is going to be a hard sell for a lot of readers. Unless you can identify and your readers quickly and get your book in front of a LOT of them I think it is going to hurt you. I'm not a $0.99 person. I think good branding and good writing can support a price point of $3.99-$5.99. Higher for known, popular authors. Again, the debut book thing is going to hurt you. Once you have a base of readers who know and like you, the higher price becomes easier.

The questions I've seen asked and not answered are 

1) On what are you basing your assumption that this book is a compelling read? Have you sent it out to beta readers? Advance reviewers? What is the feedback. I see you've paid for editing (yay! I'm a fan!). But an editors job is to make the most of what you give them. The best editor in the world can't make your story and writing style compelling. If they could - all those trad pub books would be bestsellers instead of the tiny percent at the top.

2) What is your marketing strategy on launch? AMS and Facebook ads (Unless you are really good at Facebook ads and spending a LOT) probably aren't going to do the trick. It doesn't matter how good your book is or how awesome the branding is if no one ever sees it.  Yes, some people seem to luck out and get visibility with little effort. That is the exception, not the rule. You are a fool if you are counting on it. You are releasing next week. If you don't have a great marketing strategy already in place, you are WAY BEHIND already. You haven't even included your book in your sig so we can all marvel at it (and maybe see if we want to at least download the sample after launch to see if we're willing to spend that $9.99)

You mention Elizabeth Ann West among others at the higher price point. Please remember that Elizabeth is a very savvy marketer and writes in an under-served niche sub-genre. I'm in awe of Elizabeth, but what works for her will not necessarily work for everyone. 

I know most of this thread sounds negative. Don't take it the wrong way. I think people are concerned that you not have unrealistic expectations. Of course, without knowing your work or your marketing expertise, we can't really judge.

I do wish you the very best of luck.


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

One of the nice things about being an indie is the ability to experiment with blurbs, covers, where your books are sold and for how much. 

If you insist on starting at $9.99 despite all you've read here and find the book dead in the water, mark it down until you find a sweet spot. 

When I run a promotion and sell my $2.99 books for $0.99, I'm aware that I have to sell six ebooks at the lower price to earn the same amount as I do for one at $2.99. 

Good luck! It would be great if ebook prices reflected the amount of work that goes into writing a full-length novel, but I don't see that happening when readers have so much to choose from at a lower price point.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

It's great to be ambitious. As the saying goes, fortune favours the bold!

However, and there is always a however, what I read upthread is true. Most books don't sell. It's impossible to know beforehand whether a book will or won't sell or how well it will do. The only solution is this: you have to take the plunge.

You have to do everything possible right that you can, and take the plunge.

Here's the result of my first book in its first year. It was in a hot enough market (paranormal romance) but didn't hit the tropes head on.



I had no real platform, just a Twitter feed with 1,000+ followers and a Facebook page. It sold 6 copies its first month. The only marketing was to some people on Goodreads who knew me from Twitter and on Facebook. No paid advertising. That book has earned about $10K in total in its lifetime. The series of 5 books and boxed set has earned $112K on Amazon and who can say how much on the other retailers -- maybe another $20K.

Here's book 4, which is in an entirely different category of romance. I consciously wrote to market, after deciding that the low revenues from my first series wasn't worth investing another 90 days worth of effort (that's how long, on average it took me to write each of the first 3 books). So I took a chance and studied the hottest market at the time, erotic romance, and tried my hand.

Here's the result of that book in its first full year:



You can see the difference between a book with an audience and a book without an audience. My fourth book was written to market and hit the tropes. I did virtually no marketing for it with the exception of a $25 add on a book blog (I had no idea about marketing back then). It sold 5,000+ copies its first month and was priced at the high end for erotic romance ($4.99).

Based on that success, I went on to write another 7 books in that series over the next 4 years and the series has earned $700K+ on Amazon and the other retailers.

SO...

If you have written a book with an audience with a genre-appropriate cover, great blurb, proper keywords and categories and have some marketing money to get it started, you could succeed and meet or even surpass your goal.

If you don't have the book, the cover, the blurb, the categories, the keywords and the right marketing, it will be difficult.

Good luck!

ETA:

A note: if your target market buys most of their books in bookstores, you will be SOL. You won't be able to get your book into bookstores without a track record and some cash. If your target market pays $2.99 for a book from a new author, you won't be able to sell many copies without a hella marketing push that will cost a pretty penny. You may be thinking that you will price your book close to what trad publishers charge, but remember -- they have the infrastructure in place and the deals with Amazon and other retailers to get that marketing push when they release a new novel from a first-time author. If you have no platform, if you have no big release promo planned, if you are unclear about who your target market is and how and where to reach them, it will be difficult to sell a book from a first-time author priced at $9.99.

However, you may be the exception. If you feel you have done everything possible to set yourself up in a good place, then go for it!

A more surefire way of success is to follow Chris Fox's methods. His videos are free and his how-to books are cheap. If I were starting out today, I'd watch every one of his videos and read his books and try to emulate his approach.

Good luck!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Linda_B said:


> Oh, yes, another of those "I won't spend more than a $2.99 for a new author. I want their books for free!" These people are insulting. The only ones who respond to these things are the cheapskates. I refuse to call them bargain hunters. People who complain about a lousy $1.99 or $2.99 for any ebook are just cheap.
> 
> I'll also bet these same people don't read the sample, which would give them a big clue as to whether or not they would like the book before they spend their incredibly small amount of money.
> 
> OP, there _are_ people who will pay higher prices. Find them, and don't listen to the loud-mouthed cheapskates.


I won't try a new-to-me indie author for more than $0.99. But if I like the first book I read, I'll buy every subsequent book at full price.

It sounds like you need to broaden your perspective regarding how consumers make purchase decisions. Anyone who knows me would laugh at the notion of my being a cheapskate.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

I agree with a lot of the very sage advice offered here and I'm going to choose my words really carefully because I don't want to offend anyone. Everyone has the right to write their book and publish it in any way they want. But if it was easy to knock up a £100K salary don't you think we'd all be doing it? Now there are different types of writers and different types of books. Some books I think of as product more than literature. I have a couple of friends who wrote pulp fiction in the spec fic market and became Amazon bestsellers. They didn't achieve that with their first books though. They worked at their craft for years, really understood their market and genre and spent years building their fan bases. 

There are very good hardworking genre writers who are very skilled and can write three books a  year. But they didn't learn to do that with their first book. For most of us learning to write a good novel - the kind people will happily pay for , recommend to their friends and want on their shelves takes a long time. Stephen King  said one million words  and you'd just be starting to know what this writing lark was all about. 

My first novel had five rewrites and lots of thinking time - and other novels written - in  between them. Had I published it after the first year it would  have flopped, hideously, not because it's not a good story or I have no talent  but because it just wasn't ready. FWIW I'm an award winning journalist who did english lit at college so I wasn't exactly an unqualified novice. Still took a long time.

A lot of the books that are published which don't sell are books which weren't ready, or the writers weren't ready. They might have lots of potential  but they hadn't had the workings, critiques, reworkings which good novels almost always need. Sure, you may be a prodigy.But I've never met one.

I've been a professional writer my whole adult life, I have a good agent, and I have, objectively some good YA novels ready to publish. By objectively I mean I know that other writers in my genre, my agent and editors have thought them good.  I wouldn't think  of charging $9.99. It's way over the price point young adults want to pay. I hardly  ever pay that for a book and if I do it's a  the latest in a series by a best selling author I know will deliver.

I think you've worked hard but you haven't been checking your business case against the realities of the market. Some people might call this nay saying but that's a very negative way of looking at it. If you told me you were going  to jaywalk, I'd point you to a crossing. That's not nay saying, it's trying to offer constructive advice which will help you be more successful.

My first drafts are very fast and then I let books sit for at least six months while I get beta reader comments and think about them. I let them gestate. Then I rewrite and then I do it again, see if they are working, take comments, ponder the bits that are wrong. That's just one way to do it. But if it's your first novel and it hasn't gone through a few drafts I'd say it almost certainly isn't ready to be published. And it is a shame when people take all that hard work and spoil it by publishing too soon. If you haven't done it, get some people who read this kind of book and don't know you to read it and say honestly what they think. Otherwise that year of hard work and all your money might be wasted. You can afford to take a  bit of time to make sure it's right.


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## PenNPaper (Apr 21, 2016)

I made nearly seven figures last year. The last handbag I bought was $3k. But I still wouldn't buy a $10 ebook from an unknown author. It's a ludicrous price for trad ebooks, and it's even worse for indies.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

Just to be clear the ebook market and clearance houses before them have devalued writing in the eyes of many consumers. That's a fact. It's important that we don't just give books away or make them dirt cheap for no reason. But when you take a new job you don't expect to command a high salary straight away.  You don't walk in and say: "I know I've only just joined but I'd like a directors salary please." We need to drive up the price of books alongside driving up the quality of our product, otherwise people won't pay it. And you only improve the quality by knowing your genre inside and out and honing your craft.


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## Kody Boye (Mar 1, 2017)

Miss_Fletcher said:


> My advice at this stage is to;
> 
> Write a short story prequel and charge 0.99 for it. Gather newsletter subscriptions in the back matter. This will also give you a better idea of how people respond to your brand, and more importantly, your writing. If your style does not resonate on a mass scale....
> Carry on as you are, but consider lowering your price to 4,99USD for your launch.
> Do not publish the book until you have another book written and available. You will have more options to work with.


I would recommend doing the short story through Instafreebie, then collect email signups through there. If readers opt into your newsletter after you give them your free short story (Whether it be through a back matter link or directly through a paid Instafreebie account, which is $20 a month,) you can develop a newsletter base quite quickly. I did it for a month and did some newsletter swaps with some other people on Facebook and I had my list jump up 500 subscribers.)


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## Aaronhodges (Dec 19, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> Yes, but that would be collecting the wrong people. Those who like freebies are not going to pay 9.99, and that's needed here - an email list full of people who regularly pay 9.99 for a new author. You wont get that giving away freebies.


Quite a large number of my instafreebie subscibers go on to buy books 2 and 3 for 3.99, so its not impossible.

But 9.99...

All I can say is good luck man!


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## Joynell Schultz (Oct 29, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> I suppose one way to look at it is that you're not really hurting your odds too much no matter what you do.


So true! I'm a new author who published my first book in December. I priced it at 99 cents for the first month (because everyone told me to) and still only sold 63 books (made like $15). I raised it to $2.99 my second month and sold 13 books (made like $27). In my 3rd month, I had my Kindle countdown deal and spent more on advertising than I sold... AND people are liking my book. I have 19 reviews and am averaging 4.8 stars. Perhaps a better cover would have been my salvation, but perhaps not.

What I'm getting at is why not try $9.99. You don't have much to lose. (And I'm dying to know if you have success with it.)

I really think the only way to have success is to write more books and get your name out there.

No matter what, thanks for the discussion and the though provoking discussion. If anything, that's worth 100K, right?


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## ShayneRutherford (Mar 24, 2014)

Joynell Schultz said:


> What I'm getting at is why not try $9.99. You don't have much to lose. (And I'm dying to know if you have success with it.)


One thing you have to lose is the first 30 days of the new release. After that you fall off the 30-day cliff, and the algos won't favor your book as much. Just my two cents...


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## Joynell Schultz (Oct 29, 2016)

ShayneRutherford said:


> One thing you have to lose is the first 30 days of the new release. After that you fall off the 30-day cliff, and the algos won't favor your book as much. Just my two cents...


I agree with this...if you can figure out how to get yourself up high enough in the algorithms anyway. That's not always easy either, no matter your strategy.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2017)

Joynell Schultz said:


> So true! I'm a new author who published my first book in December. I priced it at 99 cents for the first month (because everyone told me to) and still only sold 63 books (made like $15). I raised it to $2.99 my second month and sold 13 books (made like $27). In my 3rd month, I had my Kindle countdown deal and spent more on advertising than I sold... AND people are liking my book. I have 19 reviews and am averaging 4.8 stars. Perhaps a better cover would have been my salvation, but perhaps not.
> 
> What I'm getting at is why not try $9.99. You don't have much to lose. I really think the only way to have success is to write more books and get your name out there.


You can certainly try it. I am not putting absolutes out there. Writing more books and getting your name out there is very important. But those are broad statements. If you are writing more books in a small genre, how much are you helping yourself? And even if your name is known, you still run into the numbers. 
There are proven methods. But sadly, even proven methods only work occasionally in this business. There are millions of books that will never see more and a handful of readers. And that number is growing all the time. Many of them were well written, edited and have great covers. But for whatever reason, they didn't take hold. Still, even against tremendous odds, it's a good idea to learn from the few who are thriving. You can certainly blaze new trail or take the road less traveled, but you are making the nearly impossible even less likely.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> I've seen one or two indies who do well at a higher price point. And one or two making bank off one title.


Seen that separately, but not in combo--are there any Indies out there making bank with one very high-priced book?

Not to say you can't be the first.


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## S.B. (Feb 10, 2017)

I wish the OP the best of luck.  I'm a glass half empty kind of person, so I love his moxie and enthusiasm.  He's choosing a difficult path for his first novel to travel which demands guts and positivity.  Please keep us informed of your progress. I'm excited to see the cover and read the blurb.

There is a lot of great advice on this thread and I'm learning a lot.

Since everyone else is throwing ideas and recommendations at the Original Poster, here's mine!  (Please take it with a tablespoon of salt, since I'm not published yet.) Can you split your manuscript into two novels?  You said it was 100k words.  If you can rework it, then you can publish two books in one year at $4.99 each.  I know this will delay your start plans and require more writing & editing time, but it might be worth it.  $4.99 seems more reasonable to me than $9.99 for an unknown author's first ebook. 50k words meets the requirements for a good sized novel. Having two novels published 30-days apart will help build your brand, increase your Amazon algorithms (what ever those are), and give you time since you said you write "slow"*.

(*I don't consider putting out 1 book a year slow by any means.  Most likely, I will "only" be able to publish one book a year too.  All of the authors I love and read now take years between releases.  I truly don't believe the posters here who claim they crank out a well written and edited novel every month/three months or whatever.*)

The best thing about ebooks and indie publishing is that making adjustments is easy.  If the OP sees no results a month after launch, then he can change the price.  Cover not work?  Buy a new one and change the old one.  Need sales?  Buy promo ads or take your novels from wide to KU.

To the OP...Do what you feel is right!  If something's not working, change it quickly.  The most important thing is the story.  As long as that's good you will be too.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

S.B. said:


> I wish the OP the best of luck. I'm a glass half empty kind of person, so I love his moxie and enthusiasm. He's choosing a difficult path for his first novel to travel which demands guts and positivity. Please keep us informed of your progress. I'm excited to see the cover and read the blurb.
> 
> There is a lot of great advice on this thread and I'm learning a lot.
> 
> ...


It's actually pretty much the opposite. You kinda have to be putting out a well written book every three or four months minimum to make it as an indie. (To be able to make quit-the-job, support-the-family money. Six-figures money.) Every three months is my speed (my 22nd book in 4-1/2 years just came out), and I'm slower than optimal. Churn is real.

If you're slower, it may be worth pursuing traditional publishing.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2017)

Guy Riessen said:


> Seen that separately, but not in combo--are there any Indies out there making bank with one very high-priced book?
> 
> Not to say you can't be the first.


The closest was Mitchell Hogan. His sold his debut at $7.99 and did so well the HarperVoyager picked him up. I can't think of anyone else.


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## wingsandwords (Nov 1, 2016)

S.B. said:


> (*I don't consider putting out 1 book a year slow by any means. Most likely, I will "only" be able to publish one book a year too. All of the authors I love and read now take years between releases. I truly don't believe the posters here who claim they crank out a well written and edited novel every month/three months or whatever.*)


Did you really think it was a good idea to insult a large portion of this board's membership? That was pretty classless of you. There are plenty of writers on this board putting out a book at minimum every three months, as you are clearly aware, and their readers would seem to disagree with you on your idea that they're not well written.

Look, this isn't traditional publishing. Putting out a book a year is slow. That's just the way it is, you need to accept that and develop a plan to combat your readers forgetting you, instead of trash talking successful indies.


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## horst5 (Aug 9, 2013)

Hello R.T. Leone
"Go for it. Charge whatever you like!
You might not get the $ 100K you are shooting for, but you will get results.
If you don't like the results, then you know what to adjust.
If you do this often enough, you will hit what you are aiming for.
It's a given, unless you give up.
Good Luck!
Horst


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## S.B. (Feb 10, 2017)

wingsandwords said:


> Did you really think it was a good idea to insult a large portion of this board's membership? That was pretty classless of you. There are plenty of writers on this board putting out a book at minimum every three months, as you are clearly aware, and their readers would seem to disagree with you on your idea that they're not well written.
> 
> Look, this isn't traditional publishing. Putting out a book a year is slow. That's just the way it is, you need to accept that and develop a plan to combat your readers forgetting you, instead of trash talking successful indies.


Thank you Izzy Shows! I won't be commenting here further.


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

S.B. said:


> Can you split your manuscript into two novels? You said it was 100k words. If you can rework it, then you can publish two books in one year at $4.99 each. I know this will delay your start plans and require more writing & editing time, but it might be worth it. $4.99 seems more reasonable to me than $9.99 for an unknown author's first ebook. 50k words meets the requirements for a good sized novel. Having two novels published 30-days apart will help build your brand, increase your Amazon algorithms (what ever those are), and give you time since you said you write "slow"*.


Splitting the novel is a good option.


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

I like your boldness.  However, it takes far more work than ANYONE imagines to make it (except the lucky ones... I hate them    ) but in general why not shoot for like 1k?  Id be happy if I hit that.


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## Joynell Schultz (Oct 29, 2016)

horst5 said:


> Hello R.T. Leone
> "Go for it. Charge whatever you like!
> You might not get the $ 100K you are shooting for, but you will get results.
> If you don't like the results, then you know what to adjust.
> ...


Well said


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> The closest was Mitchell Hogan. His sold his debut at $7.99 and did so well the HarperVoyager picked him up. I can't think of anyone else.


Sounds like there may be some research material there for the OP


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

OP, honestly, I think people can do verbal battle against price points and etc. all they want, but in reality it's YOUR launch and YOU have to do what's best for you. Also, you have to learn. How will you know the outcome of something if you don't try it?


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2017)

I just go ho hum over this position of not paying more than 99 cents for an unknown author.
Did the publisher charge the lowest price it could because Gone With the Wind was by an unknown author?
Nope.
How about From Here To Eternity by unknown James Jones?
Nope.
Etc. etc.


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## KL_Phelps (Nov 7, 2013)

Ambitious!!

9.99 definitely seems high for a 1st time indie (actually seems high for established writers as well IMO), but that is definitely your decision to make. Best of luck!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The initial hardcover w/dust jacket printing of Gone with the Wind was 3 dollars.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:


> What year was that as a matter of interest?


I think it was first published in 1936. I'm sure someone can tell us what $3 in the 30s is comparable to today, and I bet it's not cheap.


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## wingsandwords (Nov 1, 2016)

AliceW said:


> I think it was first published in 1936. I'm sure someone can tell us what $3 in the 30s is comparable to today, and I bet it's not cheap.


In the $40s range. But you can't look at that $40 price in isolation, you have to consider it with all of the other factors, and books were also a luxury item--$3 was the average cost of a book then. Kind of like how 99c and $2.99 are the average cost of an ebook now.


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

Heya. Superhero-focused writer here.

I dunno if it's going to work out for you at a $9.99 price break. I've been doing okay pricing my stuff at $4.99, but it's taken time, patience, four novels, and a pre-established community supporting me to get here. And I'm nowhere near six figures yet.

Your strategy isn't mine. Best way to compare it, hm... you said you're into MMA, right? You're going for the knockout punch early in the round. Most of us on this board are grappling, trying to wrestle our careers into submission. It takes time, and it's not as exciting as the knockout punches, but it works.

I wish you luck bucking the trend. I might grab your novel if the blurb's good.

Next paycheck, anyway. $9.99's a bit high for a casual purchase for me right now.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I hate to tell you, but you're doing everything wrong. 

You shouldn't have set up a company without knowing if you're going to hit 100k first. Now you'll end up paying your licensing fees and and all the other $**t that is going to make your chances at being profitable even worst than they were when you started out.

You shouldn't have invested $2k in a trad pub editor. Haven't you heard of a minimum viable product? If you have a great story, readers won't care if your book is 99% polished vs 100% polished, but if you have a turd of a book, it won't matter how much you polish it. Considering this is your first book, you went WAY overboard.

Aside from this, you are putting obstacles ahead of you that aren't necessary. You want to launch at $9.99 and wide? I'm genuinely curious as to what gave you this idea? Amazon ranks books on number of sales, so if you get 30 sales at $9.99 vs 100 sales at $2.99, you will make a little more money initially, but that $2.99 book would have far superior rankings and would garnish more sales the following week/months vs the $9.99 book falling into oblivion.

And then let's talk about your genre. A teen superhero book? How many teens are going to get their parents to shell out $9.99 for an ebook? You can still buy most mass-market paperbacks in the store for less than that. It doesn't matter if your cover has the hottest looking robot in the world (wishful thinking), that is shooting yourself in the foot. And you better bet that readers will give you 1-star reviews based on the price.

My advice would to be to price appropriately for your market, and try to garner fans. A fan will buy subsequent books by you for a higher price.

Also, a 100k book per year is ridiculous unless you're doing this whole thing a casual side project. You are going to have 6 books in 6 years in a competitive, growing market... lol. The ONLY path to victory with that plan is to have an international bestseller with your first book or your book gets picked up as a movie or something. If you launch out of the gate and your book flops and you stick with this plan, you're back to square one.


I'm guessing your book will sell some copies and do okay, just like most authors who follow the same path as you. But I hope I am wrong and you really do knock it out of the park with some sort of $9.99 smash hit. It would be an amazing story and would make thousands of authors who have been writing for years green with envy.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Linda_B said:


> Oh, yes, another of those "I won't spend more than a $2.99 for a new author. I want their books for free!" These people are insulting. The only ones who respond to these things are the cheapskates. I refuse to call them bargain hunters. People who complain about a lousy $1.99 or $2.99 for any ebook are just cheap.
> 
> I'll also bet these same people don't read the sample, which would give them a big clue as to whether or not they would like the book before they spend their incredibly small amount of money.
> 
> OP, there _are_ people who will pay higher prices. Find them, and don't listen to the loud-mouthed cheapskates.


I concede that I might well be a loudmouth; it has been said before. But I am not a cheapskate. What you really meant to say, I suspect, is that he shouldn't listen to the realists who have been there and know that there is more to making six figures a year out of one book than starting a corporation and planning on it. However, if you have some ulterior motive to keep the poster in fairy land, who am I to argue?


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

AuthorX said:


> I hate to tell you, but you're doing everything wrong.
> 
> You shouldn't have set up a company without knowing if you're going to hit 100k first. Now you'll end up paying your licensing fees and and all the other $**t that is going to make your chances at being profitable even worst than they were when you started out.
> 
> ...


Informative comment. Taking mental notes for my own writing career.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

S.B. said:


> (*I don't consider putting out 1 book a year slow by any means. Most likely, I will "only" be able to publish one book a year too. All of the authors I love and read now take years between releases. I truly don't believe the posters here who claim they crank out a well written and edited novel every month/three months or whatever.*)


So we are all liars then, is that right? One of the top earners on this forum publishes a book approximately every two weeks and makes six figures a month. If you think she is lying, I suggest you look up her author page for ranking and for dates of publication. Everyone who states they publish a book a month or more, is a liar in your book. I am talking about books that sell, but perhaps that is not good enough to be called 'well written' in your opinion?

There seems to be a tendency among writers on forums to believe that if they can't do something, neither can anyone else. I don't speak French so obviously the whole language must be too difficult for anyone to learn.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

AliceW said:


> I think it was first published in 1936. I'm sure someone can tell us what $3 in the 30s is comparable to today, and I bet it's not cheap.


I think it was first published in 1929, although the film came out in 1939. It took a few years to make the film.

I would say that, had Gone with the Wind been produced by an indie author in ebook format, it probably would have had to publish at .99 cents to begin with.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

AuthorX said:


> The ONLY path to victory with that plan is to have an international bestseller with your first book or your book gets picked up as a movie or something.


Since the OP seems to be expecting Amazon to feature his newly published book for no good reason, I would not be surprised if he doesn't expect these things as well.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Doglover said:


> So we are all liars then, is that right? One of the top earners on this forum publishes a book approximately every two weeks and makes six figures a month. If you think she is lying, I suggest you look up her author page for ranking and for dates of publication. Everyone who states they publish a book a month or more, is a liar in your book. I am talking about books that sell, but perhaps that is not good enough to be called 'well written' in your opinion?
> 
> There seems to be a tendency among writers on forums to believe that if they can't do something, neither can anyone else. I don't speak French so obviously the whole language must be too difficult for anyone to learn.


I've really picked up on this line of thinking. My first book took almost two years. This next one is longer and will have been about eight months. The next one will be a bit longer but I expect production time to be the same or faster. I am fully aware that if I wrote faster, my quality would likely be BETTER. As I'd be more in-tuned to what's going on instead of spending such a short time writing.

Those that choose to write slower aren't doing so because they can't write faster. They either haven't dedicated the time (deem other things are more important-whatever those things might be) or don't want to put in the massive amount of work that it might entail to write faster.

But the fact that people continually disparage great writers who putting out work likely better than those doing the criticizing is something I hope leaves the indie community at some point.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> But its 76c now, and that says everything one needs to know. It if was the example it was put forward to be, it would still be 9.99 as an eBook.
> 
> By comparison, Dune is $9.20. But this is a trad book which spawned a series, and I think 3 miniseries versions, with another one planned. It holds its rank while everything else rises and falls around it. But this is what happens when you get picked up by tv, not because the book itself keeps going on its own.


If that's the price, I might just grab a copy. I did have it in hardback, but the dog got it! Besides, it is much too big and heavy to curl up in bed with.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

dianapersaud said:


> I would just like to add...check out Author Earnings Report to get a feel for how Indies are doing as a whole compared to the small data set you have been exposed to here on kboards.
> 
> What everyone said above is excellent advice. Making it big on one book, the first book, is extremely rare.
> Good luck on your endeavor.


Wow, I took a look myself. According to the report, there are only 9,900 authors earning $10,000 or more per year via Amazon. Those with several pen names and ghostwriting credits notwithstanding. As for $100,000 authors, there were 1,340 of them. 290 of them debuted in the past 3-years. At 250K there were 85 who debuted from the last 3-years and 21 at over $500,000. A million+? Six. Good info from Author Earnings Report.

Those were the best-seller authors. Turns out there were also 43 (at the $100,000 level) who were indies selling (non best sellers) genre - mostly Romance and Cozy Mysteries. Go figure.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2017)

ALWMOE said:


> Wow, I took a look myself. According to the report, there are only 9,900 authors earning $10,000 or more per year via Amazon. Those with several pen names and ghostwriting credits notwithstanding. As for $100,000 authors, there were 1,340 of them. 290 of them debuted in the past 3-years. At 250K there were 85 who debuted from the last 3-years and 21 at over $500,000. A million+? Six. Good info from Author Earnings Report.
> 
> Those were the best-seller authors. Turns out there were also 43 (at the $100,000 level) who were indies selling (non best sellers) genre - mostly Romance and Cozy Mysteries. Go figure.


There are basically two groups of indies doing well. One is the first wave of indies to break out from 2010-2012 (I'm part of that group). The indie explosion had just happened and we were more or less blindly trying to figure things out. There was nothing to go by other than your own intuition and some good business sense. Everything was new and resources were scarce. Just finding good editors and cover art could be a challenge. But the market was there for us and we made the most of it. Not everyone from that time is still around. As demand increased, many simply couldn't keep pace. Others made poor choices - though without any guidelines it's hard to blame them. But many of us are still around and still expanding. We were the first "hybrid" authors to come out of indie, as we delved into traditional publishing. I should mention that some indies were formerly traditionally published long before 2010. 
Those who made a name for themselves later, took what we learned and kept it going. Many added new resources and ideas aiding in the ability for us to change with what is a very fluid and often volatile profession. And unlike many other arenas, they found the old guard (if you can call 8 years , old) welcoming. 
Indie continues to add outstanding talent to its ranks. Where once we were the stepchildren of literature, we are now winning awards, we have access to the best cover artist and editors, and are loved by readers throughout the world.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Doglover said:


> So we are all liars then, is that right? One of the top earners on this forum publishes a book approximately every two weeks and makes six figures a month. If you think she is lying, I suggest you look up her author page for ranking and for dates of publication. Everyone who states they publish a book a month or more, is a liar in your book. I am talking about books that sell, but perhaps that is not good enough to be called 'well written' in your opinion?
> 
> There seems to be a tendency among writers on forums to believe that if they can't do something, neither can anyone else. I don't speak French so obviously the whole language must be too difficult for anyone to learn.


I have been presumed a liar for a long, long time. Or outlier. Whatever. The reality is my bank account and the IRS can vouch for what my books earn. I don't have anything to prove.

As for writing speed. I produce four books a year on average. I gain more readers every year and have sold over two million copies of my work. Sony Television optioned my bestselling series last year, so there's also that. I'm going to keep going at my normal pace. Apparently, the quality of the work is just fine.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

*TITLE:* Invinciman

*TAGLINE:* A Superhero to Save Us All

*COVER:*










*ONE-LINE SYNOPSIS:* An engineer left for dead digs out of his grave to rebuild himself in robotic form as the world disintegrates.

*BLURB:*

Rise Against the Machine!

In this psychological thriller, you become Ray Martin, an engineer left for dead and looking for answers. Don't take too long, though! As life drains out of your body, you find yourself hunted by both the government and a terrorist organization. Are you a solution to the problem, or THE problem to their solution? Meanwhile, you put the pieces of your puzzled life together, and find that your best friend is at the root of your suffering. Once upon a time, you two built a robot-fighting empire that became the biggest thing in the world. Superpowers like the United States, Russia, and China resolved world conflicts in your sport, but something was _off_. Consequently, you took the fall. Now you must rise.

Do You See the Arc?

A switch must be flipped. You have the tools at your disposal. You must design, engineer, and build your robot as minutes run out in your life. After all, you'll need to transfer your consciousness into it! You need to become the superhero you were always meant to be, because that's the only way you'll stop them. You've dealt with self-learning artificial intelligence before, and know what challenges lie ahead. The question is: once you get to the end, will you _flip the switch_? Or will your journey change your destiny?

A Superhero to Save Us All

_Invinciman_ is a modern-day folktale with universal themes that have always existed throughout time. Loyalty, betrayal, honesty, and injustice. R. T. Leone delivers an introspective adventure that sees the hero start from nothing, and work their way to the end, using environmental analysis, problem-solving, and strategic decision-making: *a video game in a book*. The author succeeds in intoxicating the reader with a hypnotizing story, causing them to question everything, as he ultimately pens a dazzling novel that will stand the test of time.

Are You Ready to Enter the Maze?

Then, stop. Take your deepest breath. And...

*INITIATE!*


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

TimothyEllis said:


> But its 76c now, and that says everything one needs to know. It if was the example it was put forward to be, it would still be 9.99 as an eBook.
> 
> By comparison, Dune is $9.20. But this is a trad book which spawned a series, and I think 3 miniseries versions, with another one planned. It holds its rank while everything else rises and falls around it. But this is what happens when you get picked up by tv, not because the book itself keeps going on its own.


I can't find it for that price. All I have available is one at £5.99, so perhaps this really cheap one isn't available in the UK.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Doglover said:


> So we are all liars then, is that right? One of the top earners on this forum publishes a book approximately every two weeks and makes six figures a month. If you think she is lying, I suggest you look up her author page for ranking and for dates of publication. Everyone who states they publish a book a month or more, is a liar in your book. I am talking about books that sell, but perhaps that is not good enough to be called 'well written' in your opinion?
> 
> There seems to be a tendency among writers on forums to believe that if they can't do something, neither can anyone else. I don't speak French so obviously the whole language must be too difficult for anyone to learn.


Agree with this.

Most of the authors I read are writing and publishing several books a year and they are selling like crazy. 
As someone still working on my first romance novel, I am doing tons of research into what is currently selling in the New Adult and contemporary romance (sub)genres.

* I am paying attention to: *

price points
the way the blurb is written
covers
Is the author doing pre-orders 
Kindle countdowns
what promo sites they are using (which is not always easy to find out) 
How quickly are they publishing a new book

OP If you want to put your book out at $9.99, no one can stop you. However, are the books in your sub-genre priced that high? 
-Are your book covers similar to the books in your chosen genre or sub-genre? 
-What is so special about your book that readers would pay $9.99 for it? 
-Who are your readers - Young adults. Are they realistically going to spend $9.99 on a book or would they take that pocket money, income from their afterschool or weekend job to spend on some other form of entertainment?

Personally I spend quite a bit of my monthly income on books but I buy books around the $0.99 to $2.99 range. You are an unknown author without a big following who are addicted to your books, how many people are really going to spend that kind of money on your book?

In my opinion, an author like Elizabeth Ann West is a little different (I don't use the word outlier) but someone who has found an underserved sub-genre and someone who has tapped into the tastes of a group of people who are interested in a particular period or a particular subject. If the books are engaging, even better. An author can charge more and sell a few less every month.

If an author wrote great viking romance stories like the story of 'Ragnar and Lagertha' from the TV show 'Vikings', I would pay a little more money for those books.


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

wingsandwords said:


> Did you really think it was a good idea to insult a large portion of this board's membership? That was pretty classless of you. There are plenty of writers on this board putting out a book at minimum every three months, as you are clearly aware, and their readers would seem to disagree with you on your idea that they're not well written.
> 
> Look, this isn't traditional publishing. Putting out a book a year is slow. That's just the way it is, you need to accept that and develop a plan to combat your readers forgetting you, instead of trash talking successful indies.


In your opinion putting out a book a year is slow. In that poster's opinion, writing faster does not produce well written work. Also, not all authors use readers as the benchmark to decide what's well written. Some use sales numbers as validation, others use awards, others live and die by reader reviews, and others only find satisfaction if their peers acknowledge their greatness. So unless the poster uses readers as a way to determine what's 'well written' using them as a yard stick is pointless. And 'trash talking' is an extreme way to describe another writer's opinion on how we now choose to develop our craft.

In 2010 it was just about getting any visibility at all.
In early 2011 it was all about 1,000 units and who's selling that much.
Then it was all about not being forced to write to market and shaking off the oppressive trad pub 'gatekeepers'.
Then it was all about permanently free ebooks and only writing series. If you wrote standalone novels or short stories you were done for.
Then it was all about writing shorter ebooks or you'd lose readers to the new writers on the block when you were writing that longer book.
Then it was about getting an agent to negotiate translation rights. You just _had_ to get you an agent.
Then it was about being a *hybrid author* and that was the only way to survive.
Then it was about serials and short stories
Then it was about boosting your iBooks, Nook, Kobo sales to match your Amazon sales to reach international acclaim
Then it was all about not being a hybrid because the trad pubs were p*ss ing the indies off
Then it was about rejecting free and raising prices
Then it was about lower volume and the _long tail_ and pimping out your backlist-you had to have a huge backlist to survive
Then it was about worshiping/hating on Amazon exclusivity and KU
Then it was about the horror of indie's giving away their work and lowering the value/destroying the sanctity of literature and the written word as we know it
Then it was about writing longer works because shorter works were p*ss ing off readers
Now in 2017 it's about writing faster or you will be forgotten

These trends ebb and flow and seem so fatal and absolute at the time. It's best for the author to do whatever feels natural. IN MY OPINION, if you write a book and it's so forgettable you're not remembered a year later, you need to write more interesting stories, because when this period ebbs, and let's say writing fast does not have the booming effect it has now (like 0.99 once did, like PermaFree once did, like writing in a series did, like KU once did) what then? Some writers are naturally prolific. Some are not.

But that's my opinion, which is worth about as much as...blah.

Right now, writing lots of books in a short period of time can help you tap into the commercial readership. Writing slowly can also do the same once you have a large enough backlist. One has immediate results. The other has results further down the line. So saying 'That's just the way it is, you need to accept that' is wrong in my view because seven years ago no indie could have success on a grand scale, then Hocking blasted into the stratosphere and onto the NYT list. Then all the above happened over the course of years, with an indie pioneering the trend, and at the time, there was a do or die argument for each of them.

Authors shouldn't compare themselves against each other. You're fast, you're slow. ?!??! It's meaningless for anybody who has a modicum of scope, and in the end helps no one. That poster who said they were not convinced writing prolifically results in well written books was indelicate, and showed a lack of current industry knowledge, but they've posted like 15 times. Obviously, they need more seasoning, not to be belittled and cut down by peers who turn around and write in absolutes when in this industry *there is no such thing.*


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## miss_fletcher (Oct 25, 2010)

R. T. Leone said:


> Then, stop. Take your deepest breath. And...


... realise it is likely you have a very niche book that is not going to sell on the scale I assume you are expecting. This seems to want to be sold to gamers, and I'd be inclined to believe gamers, well, play games most of the time, not read books, but that is me making a gross generalization based on my own experience with gamers.

The image you've posted is attention-grabbing, but busy, and geared strictly towards a certain segment of the market.

You've had lots of advice on selling at a higher price point, and it's all good and currently relevant, but I don't know if it's going to be relevant to you as you're looking for a whole different type of reader. I'd say you need to expend most of your energy at this point learning about platform building, underserved markets, and ebook promotion to niche readerships in general.

The good news is niche genres generally support higher price points. But they are far more difficult to find and cultivate.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I have been presumed a liar for a long, long time. Or outlier. Whatever. The reality is my bank account and the IRS can vouch for what my books earn. I don't have anything to prove.
> 
> As for writing speed. I produce four books a year on average. I gain more readers every year and have sold over two million copies of my work. Sony Television optioned my bestselling series last year, so there's also that. I'm going to keep going at my normal pace. Apparently, the quality of the work is just fine.


Jana I can believe you do achieve that. But I also bet you've got better at it and you didn't start earning all that money, or have learned everything you know now about writing with your first book.

We all know there are kindle writer entrepreneurs who have done really well. There is also an awful lot of crap out there, some of which also sells very well. Fifty Shades sold a bucketload but let's not pretend it was well written. There are different techniques to suit different ambitions. I get the feeling the OP wants to have written a wonderful novel 'which will stand the test of time' but also make a fortune rather quickly. It's not unfair for people to suggest this is unlikely.

And actually I don't think we can equate something selling well with being good. (And this is not a comment on any particular writer's work.) But there is a lot of very poor quality work that sells in this world in all arenas. Personally I'm not interested in trying to churn out rubbish and I'm not interested in the writing a genre book every two months thing because there are specific books I want to write and I want to take my time and do them well. They won't all fit the genre tropes well enough to sell thousands on kindle but that's OK. I work full time and the time I spend writing I want to be on stuff that I really value. I've turned away offers from traditional publishers to write to order because it's not something I want to spend my time doing.

So there is good stuff that people produce very quickly. But there is also a lot of tosh. (There is also tosh in the trad market but in lower volume.) I've stopped reading free books by a lot of self pubbed authors because I abandon so many of them. And I am quick to return books that I pay for that are badly written.

OP: Invinciman is a modern-day folktale with universal themes that have always existed throughout time. Loyalty, betrayal, honesty, and injustice. R. T. Leone delivers an introspective adventure that sees the hero start from nothing, and work their way to the end, using environmental analysis, problem-solving, and strategic decision-making: a video game in a book. The author succeeds in intoxicating the reader with a hypnotizing story, causing them to question everything, as he ultimately pens a dazzling novel that will stand the test of time.

Don't over write. Phrases like "with universal themes that have always existed throughout time" make you sound as though you can't write. It's grandiose and overdone. Equally: The author succeeds in intoxicating the reader with a hypnotizing story, causing them to question everything, as he ultimately pens a dazzling novel that will stand the test of time.

Really? "He ultimately pens"? Was writing this novel the last thing he ever did, or did all the other stuff happen to the reader before you wrote the book? Why 'pens'? It's one of those words people use to try make the sentence sound cleverer. You are trying to sound like a writer. We know the book was written and we don't care about the author. I want to know the story. Intrigue me.

Don't tell the reader. Show them that you can interest them by writing this really well. Otherwise you are missing your opportunity to hook someone and just sounding like a braggart which undoubtedly doesn't do your book justice. I wouldn't buy this on that basis that it is badly written. Now I'm not saying your novel has the same errors because lots of authors find it really hard to write blurbs and synopses for their book. But this is your one chance to capture the reader so they will judge your writing from this.

On the issue of whether indies have to write fast or slow an increasing number of people are hybrid writers and choose the route to market best for that project. We all have different strategies and also different yardsticks for what we consider success.

I agree with a lot of what Miss Fletcher says.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Louise Cole said:


> And actually I don't think we can equate something selling well with being good. (And this is not a comment on any particular writer's work.) But there is a lot of very poor quality work that sells in this world in all arenas. Personally I'm not interested in trying to churn out rubbish and I'm not interested in the writing a genre book every two months thing because there are specific books I want to write and I want to take my time and do them well.


While I agree that selling well doesn't equate to well written, my point was that there are an awful lot of authors who think their writing must be better because it took them a lifetime to write. Everyone has different paces and while some can write a good book quickly, others cannot. Just like everything else, there is no right or wrong way to do it.


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

I agree with Timothy 100% that it sounds like a video game. A game I would play. But a book I would read? Probably not.

Like Tim, I think there are nuggets of  interest in what you wrote in the pitch but it all boils down to how you actually wrote the book.

The first few words are "Psychological thriller." I love psychological thrillers. But Teenagers? Not so much. Who is your target audience?

Pitches are really really really hard to write. 
You can always start a new thread asking for help writing a new pitch.
Also recommend Kboards' Libbie Hawker's Gotta Read It! (It's about writing pitches.)

Also, from the pitch, you make it seem like the main goal is to build and get into the suit. That's it. Game over. What comes next?
In my mind, the nearly dead to building suit should be the first 20-25% or so of your book. Then comes the fun superhero part. Who's the supervillain?


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm not sure if the OP is English, but here in the UK, the word 'pen' used as a verb is not that uncommon. What would put me off even looking at the sample would be the pretentious way the author is telling me what a hypnotising book he has written. People who believe they have written a fantastic book, usually haven't.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

WasAnn said:


> Just...no.


That sums up my reaction nicely.


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## Quatermass (Mar 4, 2017)

WasAnn said:


> Just...no.


To the OP's credit, he did a great job of building suspense... I was checking back every few minutes to see if he'd put up the blurb yet!

_Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## T E Scott Writer (Jul 27, 2016)

Some of the responses here are getting a little mean.

Op, have you thought of marketing your book as litrpg - there have been some really good podcasts on that genre recently.


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

Wait, hold on. Is this actually an adventure gamebook?

If so, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

You'll be catering to a hobbyist niche, instead of the mass market, so a lot of our advice wouldn't apply.

That said, it's not exactly a big niche, and $9.99 is still gonna need a lot of selling. But a pretty decent income isn't impossible, if you can market appropriately and get word of mouth going.

Hm.

IS this a choose your own adventure setup?


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## T.J. Lantz (Sep 18, 2012)

"In this psychological thriller, you become Ray Martin"

Is this book written in second person POV?


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

> How will you know the outcome of something if you don't try it?


You listen to people with more experience? Do you have to touch a flame, or can you take someone's word it will burn them? Do you have to jump off a ten story building, or will wiser heads convince you you're gonna die? Splat.

There are some things one just has to take a leap of faith over. Pricing a first book (and only one for a long while, from the looks of it) from an unknown, in a genre that's hard to sell anyway, having grandiose expectations that fly in the face of all reality is setting the OP up for disappointment. Can he follow his plan anyway? Sure. We aren't the boss of him. We are just folks who've been there, down in the trenches -- some of us for years -- who've made mistakes, seen the epic fails (been the epic fails!), and somehow, we still hope to steer others towards a hope of success.

Like it or not, a book a year is going to be a hard road for anyone. It's not how this indie thing works. We don't necessarily need a novel a month, but three or four seems to be the minimum to keep reader interest, to stay up in the algos, and generally to make some level of money. I'm seeing this for myself, I'm not just spouting rainbow unicorn farts. Fast is not necessarily crap, slow is not necessarily art.

Pricing above what the market is indicating it wants isn't going to get the results expected. We don't have to be all .99 or all free, but we have to have realistic plans. Despite what one poster has said here, indies are actually raising prices, not lowering them. But it's within reason, and inline with the market.

On to the cover/blurb posted: I'm not seeing YA in this. The MC is an engineer, which makes me think he's a grown up. So right off the bat, the target audience is missed. Secondly, the blurb is not enticing. Others have mentioned it looks like a promo for a game, and it also breaks the fourth wall, speaking directly to the reader, being in second person. Here's how wiki describes second person:



> The use of "you" as an addressee (as in poetry and song) is employed in the "Choose Your Own Adventure"[3] and "Fighting Fantasy" series of books that were popular in the 1980s. It is also usual in interactive fiction, where the reader controls at least some of the protagonist's actions.
> 
> The second person ("you") is often used to address the reader personally and is therefore frequently used in persuasive writing and advertising.[4] It is, in many languages, a very common technique of several popular and non- or quasi-fictional written genres such as guide books, self-help books, choose-your-own-adventure books, do-it-yourself manuals, role-playing games, and gamebooks, musical lyrics, and also blogs.


This is very uncommon in fiction writing, and I found it jarring to read. But, if your book qualifies as one of the normal uses for this tense/POV, then fine. I suspect it would be better written in normal third person, past tense, focusing on the main character, his problems/goals and how he goes about solving them.

But as I've said, it doesn't matter to me what you do. It's your book, your career. We all have to decide what path we're going to take, because it's all on us. We are indie. Go into it knowing that you've been advised about potential problems, given the best knowledge and research we can, which is all we can do. Good luck.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

T E Scott Writer said:


> Some of the responses here are getting a little mean.
> 
> Op, have you thought of marketing your book as litrpg - there have been some really good podcasts on that genre recently.


I don't see that at all. All the posters are trying to do is be realistic and I assume that if the OP didn't want comments and opinions, he would not have posted.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't see the point of heaping on. While I don't think the $9.99 price point will work, that's certainly none of my business. People have explained about the pitfalls of going that route. Aside from that, things seem to be spiraling and there's no reason for it.
As far as I can tell the OP didn't ask for a cover critique or for people to rip apart his blurb. If he asks, go nuts. He merely stated his plan. He's also not the one who seems to be doing the insulting when it comes to other people pricing their books or writing fast ... he's not calling people names ... so let's not take it out on him.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't see the point of heaping on. While I don't think the $9.99 price point will work, that's certainly none of my business. People have explained about the pitfalls of going that route. Aside from that, things seem to be spiraling and there's no reason for it.
> As far as I can tell the OP didn't ask for a cover critique or for people to rip apart his blurb. If he asks, go nuts. He merely stated his plan. He's also not the one who seems to be doing the insulting when it comes to other people pricing their books or writing fast ... he's not calling people names ... so let's not take it out on him.


Took the words right out of my mouth.

It's like "Lord of the Flies" in here.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Isn't LitRPG basically a video game in a book?  If so, it's blowing up HUGE right now.  I know a guy who launched his most recent one into the top 500 with a LitRPG title.  But price point on that one is $4.99.  If that's what the OP is writing then he's launching into a very hungry market.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm coming late to this thread so may have missed a reference, but the closest thing I can think of to what you're expecting/planning as an indie is DAWN OF WONDER, a coming of age fantasy. It's 700+ pages in print so it's probably about twice the word length of your book and it's priced at $4.99. The book has been a huge hit, it's been available for going on two years without a sequel and, last time I looked, was still ranking really high. I'm sure he's made quite a bit more than your $100K goal since publishing. I don't know if he made that in his first year.

Granted, not quite your genre, but....half the price and twice the length. Something to think about. But it does show that the right book at the right price in the right market can do very, very well, even if the author has no other titles available and doesn't write fast.


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## Quatermass (Mar 4, 2017)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> the OP didn't ask for a cover critique or for people to rip apart his blurb. If he asks, go nuts.


Perhaps Amazon reviewers will be more kind?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Quatermass said:


> Perhaps Amazon reviewers will be more kind?


I don't see a lot of Amazon reviewers ripping apart blurbs and telling someone his cover will look terrible in thumbnail. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong pages.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth.
> 
> It's like "Lord of the Flies" in here.


"I have the conch! Don't I have the conch?"


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Cassie Leigh said:


> Isn't LitRPG basically a video game in a book? If so, it's blowing up HUGE right now. I know a guy who launched his most recent one into the top 500 with a LitRPG title. But price point on that one is $4.99. If that's what the OP is writing then he's launching into a very hungry market.


That's what I was wondering. If this IS LitRPG, then it could do well (although I certainly urge the OP to consider 4.99!). But OP, if you aren't familiar with the LitRPG genre, definitely acquaint yourself and maybe consider reworking the book for that audience. If it IS firmly LitRPG already, then that should be made clear in the blurb.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> I don't see a lot of Amazon reviewers ripping apart blurbs and telling someone his cover will look terrible in thumbnail. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong pages.


Yeah I haven't seen reviewers ripping up a blurb or commenting on the cover in the thumbnail. As Louise said below, reviews usually appear after the person has read some or all of the book.

Very few people write reviews these days and when they do it's usually to comment on something thats affected them in a very negative way or very positive way. E.g. The book bought out some emotion in the reader that they cried, they felt angry, they laughed so hard or they felt inspired. The characters journey moved them.

You will find the odd reviewer who will comment on the blurb not selling the story enough because the story was so good. I just saw one of those on Goodreads a few days ago. However, the reviewer did not rip the blurb apart.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

But that's because people don't comment on the point of sale display but the product. if someone doesn't like your blurb or cover they are unlikely to buy the book and therefore will not be  reviewing it.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Louise Cole said:


> But that's because people don't comment on the point of sale display but the product. if someone doesn't like your blurb or cover they are unlikely to buy the book and therefore will not be reviewing it.


And if the OP had solicited reviews on his cover and blurb it wouldn't be an issue. As it is, unsolicited reviews on cover and blurb are unnecessary and considered rude. The OP did not ask for comment on either. I was merely responding to the snark from another individual who said that Amazon reviewers would be rougher.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

Oh I'm sorry, I assumed he had posted them because someone at the beginning of the thread urged him to post them to garner response from the group. I assumed that was their purpose, to see  whether they would support this 9.99 price point and ambitious business plan.


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## Quatermass (Mar 4, 2017)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Aunsolicited reviews on cover and blurb are unnecessary and considered rude. The OP did not ask for comment on either. I was merely responding to the snark from another individual who said that Amazon reviewers would be rougher.


Only a little snark was intended.  I was unaware of this point of board etiquette. I apologise.

... But all the same, surely if the OP is going to publish a book, someone somewhere is going to comment on it?


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Louise Cole said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I assumed he had posted them because someone at the beginning of the thread urged him to post them to garner response from the group. I assumed that was their purpose, to see whether they would support this 9.99 price point and ambitious business plan.


When someone wants feedback on that stuff they start a thread and ask for it. "Fix this blurb" or "what do you think of my cover." This turned into a heaping on session that was completely unnecessary. Voicing concerns about a price point when someone explains that's their entire game plan is totally fine ... as long as it doesn't devolve into name calling our intelligence bashing. Telling someone their cover and blurb suck is not expected or warranted in the same scenario.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Quatermass said:


> Only a little snark was intended.  I was unaware of this point of board etiquette. I apologise.
> 
> ... But all the same, surely if the OP is going to publish a book, someone somewhere is going to comment on it?


How and when?


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

Doglover said:


> While I agree that selling well doesn't equate to well written, my point was that there are an awful lot of authors who think their writing must be better because it took them a lifetime to write. Everyone has different paces and while some can write a good book quickly, others cannot. Just like everything else, there is no right or wrong way to do it.


Yes that's true but there are also types of books which are quicker to write. I've written a romance novella in a week. I wouldn't be able to do that with a more literary novel that takes more crafting. If you look at the cannon of classic english literature very little of it could have been produced at the speed we've been discussing on here and not simply because they didn't have laptops. It's because formulaic is faster than original; easy read, good enough prose is easier to turn out than poetry. That's not to criticise books that are formulaic or basic in terms of style, it's just an acknowledgement that some books need longer and that has nothing to do with how fast the writer can work but the purpose, scope and ambition of the project. Fast writing doesn't mean good writing and sales don't mean good writing, although they can both co-exist with good writing.


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## truc (Apr 2, 2015)

Yikes, note to self, never post cover and blurb on Kboards for feedback.

OP, hope you haven't been totally demoralized. I think there is a market for this kind of story (LitPRG seems closest), but it require some reworking of your plans. You may want to reconsider pricing and asking for help with marketing. Good luck to you.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

truc said:


> OP, hope you haven't been totally demoralized.


I second Truc.

The "blurb" is... different. It doesn't sell me, but then I'm not an adolescent or marinated in gamer culture.

However, as mentioned by others in this thread, if the book is LitRPG, then the OP has a shot. The story sounds like it would nicely fit in that genre. It is a growing, hungry genre.

I am assuming the 2nd pov of the description is exclusive to the description and that the book is written in one of the traditional povs. If not, then interactive adventure books ("Choose your own adventure" etc) is the only market. Maybe that's still a big thing? I've no idea.

I'm going with the most favorable inference that comes to mind and assume the OP has indeed written a LitRPG book. The story, pieced together after sifting through the braggadocio and odd locutions in the description, sounds good.

My 2 cents: I have no opinion on your goals, OP. I will say that if your passion for writing & publishing is as strong as your ambition, that's certainly an asset. 
Study LitRPG as a genre from a marketing perceptive. 
Learn the norms and the tolerances (as a genre, it's fairly new so has a greater tolerance for novelty than most). 
Let the book be your exercise in originality/creativity. Play it closer to norms and marketing conventions as regards blurb and cover.
Plan and budget a staggered ad/promo schedule.
If you haven't given it a run through a beta read team, do so. You can get assistance on these boards with learning how to approach recruiting such a team.

It'd be an interesting story that breaks almost all the conventional wisdom if, as-is, you knock it out of the park. Of course, I love a good story so best of luck.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Louise Cole said:


> I've written a romance novella in a week. I wouldn't be able to do that with a more literary novel that takes more crafting.


On behalf of romance writers everywhere, let me say . . . wow, good to know our work doesn't require "crafting"! Hey romance authors, we can all relax now that we know our books are so easy to write and require no actual "crafting."


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## KeenToWrite (Oct 30, 2015)

It takes time to learn what works and what doesn't. That said, my guess is that when OP publishes, cold reality will soon come rushing in. This book does sound like it has the potential to be rebranded as litRPG, in which case it might do well at a lower price point (if cover/blurb were overhauled, for starters). The genre is so hot right now.

My mentality in everything I do, not just self-publishing, has always been to hope for the best while keeping expectations low. If my expectations had been as lofty and outcome-dependent as OP's when I started four years ago, I would've quit by now. Writing for anything but the enjoyment of it - doing ANYTHING for anything but the enjoyment of it - is a path to disappointment.


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

I think the cover is fascinating honestly. The blurb is different. But sometimes different is just what the doctor ordered. I wish you the best!


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## Quatermass (Mar 4, 2017)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> How and when?


Not here? OK, point taken.

I've read a lot of similar threads here, and never commented before. I felt this post was different because the OP expects his book to do _extraordinarily well_. When the blurb and cover appeared so at odds with the original claims, I felt comment was due.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

LadyG said:


> On behalf of romance writers everywhere, let me say . . . wow, good to know our work doesn't require "crafting"! Hey romance authors, we can all relax now that we know our books are so easy to write and require no actual "crafting."


Obviously, someone doesn't know that romance can also be original.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

LadyG said:


> On behalf of romance writers everywhere, let me say . . . wow, good to know our work doesn't require "crafting"! Hey romance authors, we can all relax now that we know our books are so easy to write and require no actual "crafting."


Ha yeah ... If you want a book that's re-readable, a book that sticks, you'd darned well better craft it carefully. Even if it's genre fiction.  And yet it's still better if you can write it fast, if you want to sell.

I know quite a few six- and seven-figure authors. Some, as This_Way_Down mentions, started back in 2011/12 and/or came from tradpub. Some, like me, started after then and as indies, throwing our hat in the ring with a book, sometimes our first fiction. All those folks I know write hooky, well-crafted stories that garner good reviews because they engage readers. Those long-term successful writers also write at a fairly quick pace, because that's the reality of the indie market. You've got to keep pedaling.

It's certainly possible to hit big in indie with one book, though I can count the people I know who did that on one hand. One indie in specfic: Andy Weir. I can't think of anybody who did that as an indie at $9.99. Maybe there's somebody, though.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

LadyG said:


> On behalf of romance writers everywhere, let me say . . . wow, good to know our work doesn't require "crafting"! Hey romance authors, we can all relax now that we know our books are so easy to write and require no actual "crafting."


Wow this thread is taking a strange direction now. I don't know if that's what she meant to say, maybe she should have chosen her words more carefully.

I know first hand that romance is _not the easiest genre to write_. I have spoken to authors who are now very successful, who said they struggled at first.

As a big fan of contemporary and NA romance, I can say that many romance fans can be quite hard to please. We like authors to stay within certain boundaries (most of the time) and we can be very opinionated if these authors don't give us what we expected. We expect an engaging book or we DNF a lot, look at Goodreads to see how many readers give up on books quite early. 
I expect developed interesting characters and exciting plots. I am a fussy reader and romance is a very diverse genre.


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## Harriet Schultz (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm starting to wonder if the OP's original intent wasn't about his book's proposed $9.99 price at all, but instead was to kick off a debate about ebook pricing. If so, he succeeded in instigating a very interesting and informative discussion.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Louise Cole said:


> Jana I can believe you do achieve that. But I also bet you've got better at it and you didn't start earning all that money, or have learned everything you know now about writing with your first book.


Of course not, but that wasn't my point. I wasn't addressing the OP at all because I think his chances of accomplishing what he wants to is about a million to one. My experience with indie has been that most people with unrealistic goals have to learn themselves.



> We all know there are kindle writer entrepreneurs who have done really well. There is also an awful lot of crap out there, some of which also sells very well. Fifty Shades sold a bucketload but let's not pretend it was well written. And actually I don't think we can equate something selling well with being good.


And this is where you, I and a bunch of other people disagree completely. As an author, you can base "well written" or "good" on whatever criteria you'd like. Awesome prose, great description, an incredible plot or even the cute font for chapter headings. But indies aren't just authors. We're also publishers. And a publisher's ONLY consideration of a "well written" or "good" novel is the one that sells well.



> Personally I'm not interested in trying to churn out rubbish and I'm not interested in the writing a genre book every two months thing because there are specific books I want to write and I want to take my time and do them well. They won't all fit the genre tropes well enough to sell thousands on kindle but that's OK. I work full time and the time I spend writing I want to be on stuff that I really value. I've turned away offers from traditional publishers to write to order because it's not something I want to spend my time doing.


That's totally your choice and I don't think anyone is calling it wrong. What I WILL say is that if you chose to release slowly and write more literary works, then don't complain when you're not selling as well as MMF. My problem with most people complaining about income is that they had completely unrealistic expectations to begin with. Which is a failure to learn the business.


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## Louise Cole (Jan 21, 2017)

LadyG said:


> On behalf of romance writers everywhere, let me say . . . wow, good to know our work doesn't require "crafting"! Hey romance authors, we can all relax now that we know our books are so easy to write and require no actual "crafting."


With respect that's an obtuse reading of what I was saying, and I suspect you know that. I made no comment on what you or anyone else writes. Most romance is not literary, ie it is not style-led. I don't think it would surprise anyone to discover that it takes longer to write Birdsong than it does a romance novella, not only because it's five times the length but also it is style and character-led and not conforming to specific tropes. This is germane to our discussion about where speed works. I didn't say it was easy to write romance. I said that it was one of the things I can do - maybe not as well as you, I don't know - but if I need to I can write that fast. This is after a 20 year career as a professional writer. Other things I can't write fast and some things I don't think anyone can write fast. It depends not just on the writer but on the scope and nature of the project.

I clearly wasn't saying that romance couldn't be original. And I didn't say that it didn't need crafting. I said some books are quicker to write than others and we each have things we find easier or quicker to do, and different things which interest us to do.

I'm going to leave this discussion now because I think for whatever reason this is pushing buttons with some some people would perhaps prefer to fight than talk. There were a lot of good points made though so for my part, thanks all.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

There is a vast category of readers who will give unknown indie writers a chance and buy their debut novel. BUT these readers generally want the book either for free or at a max price of $2.99. These readers never consult the Big 5 bestseller lists and will often go their whole lives never paying much for an ebook, being quite satisfied with what they get for their money.

There is another category of readers who will pay $7.99 and above, even all the way to $14.99 for an ebook. These people are much more discriminating, tending to stick with established bestselling writers and big-hit books. They wouldn't dream of reading anything by an indie writer unless it came highly recommended, and I would bet money those situations are very few and extremely far between. You're at their price point, but they've never heard of you and more importantly, have never read any novels you've written.

You've got a long, hard road ahead.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

O.K. Folks: here's an official Cut It Out.

Did the OP request help on crafting a blurb, or feedback on his cover? I admit it's hard to know -- he did post them after someone suggest he do so. Which could count as an implied request for comment.

That said, once you've commented once, there's no need to comment again and again saying the same thing. And what you do post must be courteous. Some posts may be removed as non-productive and/or un-civil. If you can't find your post, that's what happened.

OP, perhaps you should clarify just what assistance you're requesting.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

Well, I liked the cover and the blurb.

I'm an amateur gamer so it immediately peaked my interest. The only thing I wondered (as a publisher) is whether the title would get lost as a thumbnail. Could you post a thumbnail version?

As for the 9.99 price point. All I'll say is you're a braver man than I am (and I make a good living doing this writing thing). But if you think it's something you can do (and you have a huge marketing budget and/or ready platform), then just try it. The only thing you might lose is the 30 day boost that Amazon gives new books. If it works, I'll be terribly happy for you. It takes a pioneer to show people a new way. I'm too timid to be one but I would never hold back someone who wants to be one.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

she-la-ti-da said:


> You listen to people with more experience? Do you have to touch a flame, or can you take someone's word it will burn them? Do you have to jump off a ten story building, or will wiser heads convince you you're gonna die? Splat.


This is all true, but the fact is that experimenting with what sells isn't the same as physically endangering yourself. The beauty of owning your own business is that you get to try different things and show some ingenuity.

I'm not a big fan of the pile-on, myself. Experimenting on a first book and finding that it doesn't work is not the end of the world, and neither is trying new things and playing with sales tactics. I absolutely will not encourage someone to spiral into abject negativity because all they hear are people telling them they're wrong, stupid, or ignorant. Let them figure it out themselves.


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## Amyshojai (May 3, 2010)

I paged through the entire threading hoping the cover and blurb would be posted, so thank you!

For me, the cover would work very well as a physical (trade paperback) book, very striking. As others have said, though, once reduced to thumbnail it likely won't be as readable so another version (or re-do of all versions) would be a good investment. 

Wishing you all the best in the launch! Also...be aware that many folks change their blurbs and/or covers along the way. So yes, early launch results are important but it's not like jumping off a cliff. There are do-overs. Hell, I've reinvented my writing career half a dozen times by now (having started with New York in 1992). 

Fortune favors the brave!


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## wren14 (Mar 4, 2015)

I wish you the best of luck with your book, and if you meet your goal, you will be the superhero! But . . . if you don't, remember that 99% (just a guess) of us didn't meet that goal either - on book 1.

Never give up, and remember: Write, publish, repeat.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Cassie Leigh said:


> Isn't LitRPG basically a video game in a book? If so, it's blowing up HUGE right now. I know a guy who launched his most recent one into the top 500 with a LitRPG title. But price point on that one is $4.99. If that's what the OP is writing then he's launching into a very hungry market.


Yeah. It's not my thing but I just took a look. The price point is _slightly_ more reasonable for the genre. For a debut, I would still probably scale it back. It's still higher than some of the category best-sellers. But I'm not his target audience, so.... Also... did I dream he said he's releasing next week? OP - if I do a google on your name + "author" or name + title, I come up with nothing on the first page except this thread. Besides here, do you have any pre-release buzz going? Any social media? Where are you? I mean, hopefully you are out on litrpg and gaming forums drumming up some interest because as much as we want to you to succeed, buys from this forum aren't going to do it.

Hopefully you have mad category/keyword skills and are planning a shock-and-awe style release promo.


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

The OP must have very thick skin and/or incredible self control or is just away from his (?) computer, because he sure is quiet while his plan is slowly being ripped apart.  

I have no experience to speak off, so will not offer advice. But my gut tells me that any writer will have twice as many downloads at $4.99 as at $9.99 so if  margins allow it (as self publishing margins do), then to me it would be a no-brainer to lower the price and increase profit. But that's just gut speaking.


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## wren14 (Mar 4, 2015)

Before I leave this discussion, I just wanted to congratulate the OP on generating all this buzz for his release next week. You've got a lot of people commenting here, and God knows how many others just read the thread. I wish I had as much for my debut!

You know what they say: The only bad publicity is no publicity. 

Good luck. Keep on writing.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Love the passionate response to this experiment thus far, and thanks to everyone for contributing!

There's a lot to reply to (I've been editing in the meanwhile, so haven't jumped in much), but I really appreciate all of the well wishes and support. The fact that there are other writers further ahead in the game than I am pulling for me means a TON, and validates the entire experiment on my end. Thanks for that!

Answers to some questions / comments:

*The cover and blurb suck. I hate it, and you'll never make a single sale. What were you thinking?*

My entire game plan is to do things that no one else is doing. Make it all _different_. I used to work in sales (and Internet marketing before that), and have had to sell a lot of garbage (IE: credit card insurance) to customers in my time. If nothing else, I did learn that language is an extremely important tool, and the general populace doesn't process things in long, exquisite sentences anymore. We're in the 160-character era, and sales messages need to be succinct and enticing. Perhaps the hardcore literary audience wants more substance, but I'm not marketing to them. I'm aiming for the mass market.

Why vertical text on the cover? Nobody else does it. Why is it so black? I'm in Interaction Development currently outside of my writing endeavours, and really wanted to explore blackspace on a novel cover because I don't see a lot of it, yet it makes the secondary colour (in this case, blue) stick out, and you can use that effect to illuminate a title (as I have). This is all subjective, of course, but we'll see if it translates to sales.

*You're not fitting into the conventions of blurb-writing. It sounds like a promo for a video game.*










*Why don't you price lower?*

I'm pricing high because I believe the value of my work is high. I could be wrong, or I could be right, and might still fail to see any success anyway because the audience is conditioned to only paying a certain amount for digital titles. But the thesis to this experiment is to do things _differently_, and I have nothing to lose if I price $9.99 out of the gate. No reputation to diminish, no readership to annoy, no mailing list to lose subscriptions on. That appears to be the one advantage of being a debut author, is that _this_ is the time to experiment without any consequence. I might not get the chance later on.

*Why is $100,000 the goal?*

All top-quality writers should make at least this much, IMHO.

*Is it a LitRPG?*

It isn't, but the story reads like somewhat of a puzzle (think MEMENTO), and it affects the reader's interpretation of the plot. I'm doing something creative with the chapter numbering as well. The LitRPG genre is certainly interesting, though, and it's possible that if I ever write a sequel to this, that could be a potential direction.

*Will the cover stand out as a thumbnail?*

This was a MAJOR concern of mine when I was designing it. So much so, I quickly put together a mockup page of the Kindle Store (irony of it being in the daily deals section with $2.99 novels, LOL) to see if it stood out among the rest, just integrated in, or was a total afterthought. I made some modifications, colour-wise, to have it stick out some more, because the old cover was very greyscale-heavy,


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Starbright said:


> The OP must have very thick skin and/or incredible self control or is just away from his (?) computer, because he sure is quiet while his plan is slowly being ripped apart.


Given the way he's been dogpiled and ripped apart by the resident pack, I wouldn't blame him if he never came back.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

AliceW said:


> Given the way he's been dogpiled and ripped apart by the resident pack, I wouldn't blame him if he never came back.


You realize you posted immediately following a response by the OP -- he's obviously taking it all with good grace. . . .


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

R. T. Leone said:


> This was a MAJOR concern of mine when I was designing it. So much so, I quickly put together a mockup page of the Kindle Store (irony of it being in the daily deals section with $2.99 novels, LOL) to see if it stood out among the rest, just integrated in, or was a total afterthought. I made some modifications, colour-wise, to have it stick out some more, because the old cover was very greyscale-heavy,


See? It looks awesome there in thumbnail. I'd read the blurb if I saw it on my screen.


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## Justawriter (Jul 24, 2012)

It actually looks better at Thumbnail size. The name stands out more.

Good luck to you. I posted my thoughts earlier, so will just say I hope you will report back on how the launch goes!


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

R. T. Leone said:


> I quickly put together a mockup page of the Kindle Store (irony of it being in the daily deals section with $2.99 novels, LOL) to see if it stood out among the rest,


Ha! I do this, too. A better place than the daily deals, though, would be in a line-up of best-selling books in your genre. The cover should 1) stand-out and yet 2) fit in

I know that sounds contradictory, but you want a cover they conveys genre while at the same time is eye-catching enough to grab attention.

FWIW - I think your cover is actually better at thumbnail than mega-size because I could read the title more clearly. I have no idea if it will attract readers in your genre. Hopefully you know more about that than I do.

As far as the being _different_. Yeah, as artists we all want that. Be careful, though. There is a reason a lot of those covers, blurbs etc. look the same. All those things are signals to your readers. I have a friend who is a beautiful writer and a top seller in their genre. They have one very beautiful, very artistic cover. It cost a lot and has won all sorts of awards. It's their worst selling book. I won't say BECAUSE of the cover, but objectively, the cover did not convey genre as well.

And I'm NOT saying that little story applies to you. I'm just saying you have to be careful when you set out to be different.


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## Misty Archer (May 6, 2015)

I will chime in here and say I absolutely loved the cover and it looks fantastic at thumbnail size - I would click on that in a heartbeat just to see what it was about.

I also found the blurb interesting enough to make me want to find out more about the book.

Price wise - who knows - this is an interesting experiment. It can always be adjusted if the OP feels it isn't working.

My daughter spent £75 (pounds) on a Kickstarter board game for her little sister for Christmas - young adult readers don't seem to mind paying for what they want. I also see people directing a lot of money towards their children, especially if it gets them reading.

If I had a son who wanted to read this I would buy it for him - young adult male readers are often under-served - look how the Harry Potter series took off, partly because it got boys reading, and had mass market appeal as well.

I will be really interested to see how this experiment works out for the OP and would love it if it comes off.

I hope we hear more about this book once it is launched and good luck, sometimes different really captures the imagination and soars.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

I have to give it to the OP. If his book is anywhere as riveting as reading through this thread, he's going to succeed. I liked the cover, the blurb and the whole plan of making a 100k in a year. I had no idea there were millionaire writers on this board. I hope the OP succeeds and far exceeds even his dreams. I will buy into your dream for 10 bucks. So put 1 copy aside for me.


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## 5ngela (Sep 7, 2015)

Good luck for you. Personally I don' think superhero genre is popular besides Marvel and DC. But I will be happy if someone prove me wrong.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Well, that was a lot to get through.



R. T. Leone said:


> *The cover and blurb suck. I hate it, and you'll never make a single sale. What were you thinking?*
> 
> My entire game plan is to do things that no one else is doing. Make it all _different_. I used to work in sales (and Internet marketing before that), and have had to sell a lot of garbage (IE: credit card insurance) to customers in my time. If nothing else, I did learn that language is an extremely important tool, and the general populace doesn't process things in long, exquisite sentences anymore. We're in the 160-character era, and sales messages need to be succinct and enticing. Perhaps the hardcore literary audience wants more substance, but I'm not marketing to them. I'm aiming for the mass market.
> 
> Why vertical text on the cover? Nobody else does it. Why is it so black? I'm in Interaction Development currently outside of my writing endeavours, and really wanted to explore blackspace on a novel cover because I don't see a lot of it, yet it makes the secondary colour (in this case, blue) stick out, and you can use that effect to illuminate a title (as I have). This is all subjective, of course, but we'll see if it translates to sales.


Doing things that are different can sometimes pay off. It's worked for some. But it's also worked horribly for others. If you want to do something different, that's totally cool. I've done a lot of stuff different from what's being done by others (and my low sales are a reflection of that). I hope you have better luck than I did.

But manage your expectations. This book could very well be a best-seller. But being a new writer who breaks conventions and charges $9.99 for a debut novel with a goal of $100K a year is really stacking the deck against yourself. I recommend you find areas where you can compromise on some things or lower your target income.



> *Why don't you price lower?*
> 
> I'm pricing high because I believe the value of my work is high. I could be wrong, or I could be right, and might still fail to see any success anyway because the audience is conditioned to only paying a certain amount for digital titles. But the thesis to this experiment is to do things _differently_, and I have nothing to lose if I price $9.99 out of the gate. No reputation to diminish, no readership to annoy, no mailing list to lose subscriptions on. That appears to be the one advantage of being a debut author, is that _this_ is the time to experiment without any consequence. I might not get the chance later on.
> 
> ...


Just be aware of the reality of the situation. In my opinion, writers and teachers should be making six figures and the cost of rent should be drastically lower than it is. But what I want things to be and what the reality is aren't the same thing. And though we may want writers to make six figures, the reality is that the vast majority of them don't. Your competition is charging a lot less for their work, and though some of those books may be of lower quality than yours, some of them will be at the same quality as yours and some will be better.



> *Will the cover stand out as a thumbnail?*
> 
> This was a MAJOR concern of mine when I was designing it. So much so, I quickly put together a mockup page of the Kindle Store (irony of it being in the daily deals section with $2.99 novels, LOL) to see if it stood out among the rest, just integrated in, or was a total afterthought. I made some modifications, colour-wise, to have it stick out some more, because the old cover was very greyscale-heavy,


I was pretty surprised by this. When I saw the larger version of the cover, I was turned off by the vertical text. But it really does work in a thumbnail. I'm not sure if I would still recommend going vertical, but at least it works for the thumbnail.

Ultimately, you're going to do what you want and that's totally fine. And if you want to price high and shoot for six figures with one book, then go for it. It'd be really cool if this works out in your favor and I'll be interested to see what happens.

But if it doesn't, then adjust your expectations and your strategy.



5ngela said:


> Good luck for you. Personally I don' think superhero genre is popular besides Marvel and DC. But I will be happy if someone prove me wrong.


In comics, Marvel and DC are dominating. But there are quite a few superhero novelists making really good money from the genre, some even making a full-time living. This isn't really the thread to talk about it, but if you look up the superhero thread in this forum, you'll see some of the discussions that have gone on over there. To keep a long story short, though there is some overlap, the audiences for superhero comics and superhero novels are different.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

Ok, now I'm curious. Are there ANY indie books that have debuted at $100k in their first year?

A quick look at AE says there were only 300 odd authors that debuted in the previous 3 years earning six figures plus. I would assume those guys have multiple releases, though. Of course, the flaw there is the lack of data from wide platforms. 

Does anyone have data on the highest-grossing debut stand-alone releases? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

spellscribe said:


> Ok, now I'm curious. Are there ANY indie books that have debuted at $100k in their first year?
> 
> A quick look at AE says there were only 300 odd authors that debuted in the previous 3 years earning six figures plus. I would assume those guys have multiple releases, though. Of course, the flaw there is the lack of data from wide platforms.
> 
> ...


I'd bet Brenna Aubrey and Mitchell Hogan did.


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## My Dog&#039;s Servant (Jun 2, 2013)

spellscribe said:


> Ok, now I'm curious. Are there ANY indie books that have debuted at $100k in their first year?





Jana DeLeon said:


> I'd bet Brenna Aubrey and Mitchell Hogan did.


I'm guessing Jonathan Renshaw, as well. He's probably doing far better than that now, two years in and with only one book. And it's the closest to the OP's genre I can think of.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

@OP - let us know when you hit "publish." I'm sure we'll all be fascinated to see how this goes. 

Apologies if I missed this but will it be KU or wide?

Re the "thumbnail test" - it has interesting text, that's clear, and but the picture isn't there. I probably wouldn't click if I'm honest. If you can make that blue a little lighter, a bit more electric (maybe cerulean?) it might stand out more. I quite like the picture when it's big and I can see it.

However, that aside, I am genuinely happy when I see "different" succeed, and I'm interested in how this goes. Sincerely, the best of luck with this.


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## Quatermass (Mar 4, 2017)

To the OP:

From my time browsing these forums, I have noticed that nothing delights people more than success, while a sense of schadenfreude is notably absent. Put simply, _everyone wants you to succeed._

The comments you have received in this thread are in the form of a challenge: Can you up your game to achieve the goals you have set?

Nobody is suggesting you give up. Far from it - we are on the edge of our seats waiting for you to triumph.

Good luck.

Edited for typong eros.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

spellscribe said:


> Ok, now I'm curious. Are there ANY indie books that have debuted at $100k in their first year?
> 
> A quick look at AE says there were only 300 odd authors that debuted in the previous 3 years earning six figures plus. I would assume those guys have multiple releases, though. Of course, the flaw there is the lack of data from wide platforms.
> 
> ...


A few books have. Anthony Ryan comes to mind (before he was picked up). I think someone mentioned Renshaw. And there are others. But typically what you see is a book that does exceedingly well - though maybe not to the 6 figure level in the beginning. The second and third books boost the sales of the first. That's when it earns over $100k.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

This is fun!

I really love the cover (although i think it could be improved by brightening it a bit) and while I think the blurb could be toned down a bit, and a bit more of the MC's hero's journey brought forward, I think this is an exciting premise. The price is still an issue, but you'll know soon enough whether readers think your cover and blurb and preview are good enough to compel them to click 'buy.' 

If nothing else, this will be a huge learning moment for you --  and the rest of us, so thank you for sharing your journey. 

Ultimately, the book has to be *good enough* to sell in large numbers to make it a success, and by *good enough*, I mean it is pleasing enough to readers to get them talking about it to their friends so you get referrals and then get Amazon algo notice. 

The issue I see is that if you are using kBoards as a marketing tool, you may find your also-boughts get screwed up since most of the members here are authors who read a lot of how-to books.  You don't want writing how-to books in your also-boughts. I've seen that on other author book pages, so I would not announce anything to kBoards about your release until at least a week has gone by so you can avoid the dreaded writing how-to also-boughts. You want yours pristine.

Good luck! You've taken all this advice and commentary with good grace. That should help you during launch and the aftermath.


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

spellscribe said:


> Ok, now I'm curious. Are there ANY indie books that have debuted at $100k in their first year?
> 
> A quick look at AE says there were only 300 odd authors that debuted in the previous 3 years earning six figures plus. I would assume those guys have multiple releases, though. Of course, the flaw there is the lack of data from wide platforms.
> 
> ...


I would guess:

-Jasinda Wilder (although they might not count as they put out a lot of titles in their first year. A mixture of novellas and novels)

-Jamie Mcguire

-Cora Carmack made over $200k in the first few months with her debut book 'Losing it'

-Colleen Hoover

There are a few indie authors that I noticed sticking around 1-200 on amazon for weeks with one or two titles. They must have passed the $100k mark in a few months, authors like _Jana Aston_.

These are all romance authors. Three of them arrived on the scene in the first few months of this new hot sub-genre New Adult romance. All have publishing deals now but they achieved huge success and sales as indie authors first.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

I did, but not on one book. On four. Recently, J Bengtsson did it one book. $2.99.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I did, but not on one book. On four. Recently, J Bengtsson did it one book. $2.99.


One book at 611 pages length for $2.99. Perhaps food for thought for the OP.
(Almost 9 months later it's still a strong income source with a paid kindle ranking in the 500s.)


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## dianapersaud (Sep 26, 2013)

Patrick Urban said:


> One book at 611 pages length for $2.99. Perhaps food for thought for the OP.
> (Almost 9 months later it's still a strong income source with a paid kindle ranking in the 500s.)


It's also in KU. I'm guessing she qualifies for bonus money too.

I noticed this:
#21 in Kindle Store > Prime Reading > Romance

I didn't realize Prime books had their own category.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

His book isn't even out yet. At this point can't we just leave it alone and let the poor man release and see where the chips may fall?


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

************


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

People getting a bit overexcited again . . some posts have been removed. . . how about we chill until the book is released and the OP can provide some numbers.  But, if you have to post, let's keep it on topic and resist name calling of your fellow authors, hmmm?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Jen Wells did it, I think, with Fluency.  I believe she was priced at 3.99 in KU with some runs at .99 as well.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Jen Wells did it, I think, with Fluency. I believe she was priced at 3.99 in KU with some runs at .99 as well.


I thought of her, too. If I recall correctly, she sold 70,000 copies in the first year or so. I know when I looked at her book towards the end of that first year it was $4.99 but not sure what it launched at.


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## Yayoi (Apr 26, 2016)

So, I get that in order to sell hundreds of copies with your first book, the only way to do that is by spending way on advertising? Because honestly I can't see how it will happen, provided that other authors like A.G. Riddle and Jen Wells were lucky unlike the rest of us.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Yayoi said:


> So, I get that in order to sell hundreds of copies with your first book, the only way to do that is by spending way on advertising? Because honestly I can't see how it will happen, provided that other authors like A.G. Riddle and Jen Wells were lucky unlike the rest of us.


No. The way to do it is to write a very hooky, engaging book that gets word of mouth promotion--people recommending it to their friends.

Unfortunately, you only know if you've done that once it happens. Everybody I know who's done it has been surprised.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Rosalind J said:


> No. The way to do it is to write a very hooky, engaging book that gets word of mouth promotion--people recommending it to their friends.
> 
> Unfortunately, you only know if you've done that once it happens. Everybody I know who's done it has been surprised.


This. My first UF book was selling over 100 copies a day before book 2 came out just on word of mouth + great cover + fun premise + low price point (.99). I did all that because I looked at what was working for other people and decided to try it for myself. I also wrote a pretty darn good book that did exactly what I wanted it to re: reader expectations etc


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## Zaitsev (Feb 21, 2016)

Annie B said:


> This. My first UF book was selling over 100 copies a day before book 2 came out just on word of mouth + great cover + fun premise + low price point (.99). I did all that because I looked at what was working for other people and decided to try it for myself. I also wrote a pretty darn good book that did exactly what I wanted it to re: reader expectations etc





Rosalind J said:


> No. The way to do it is to write a very hooky, engaging book that gets word of mouth promotion--people recommending it to their friends.
> 
> Unfortunately, you only know if you've done that once it happens. Everybody I know who's done it has been surprised.


But the book has to be *visible *for that to happen -- eyes have to be on it. It can be 'hooky and engaging' but if nobody sees it nothing is going to happen. If you already have an engaged readership then yes = word of mouth goes to work. So, for most unknown authors it does seem you have to splash out some serious cash upfront in terms of paid promos and ads. I see it all the time here when people list their launch promos -- its part of the whole strategy now, it would appear. Sure, you do that with a dud book and you've thrown your money away -- but for an unknown to 'launch' without a way of getting eyes on the book it's mostly not going to see many sales. It *can* happen but highly unlikely -- no? I'm actually holding back publishing more books -- though still writing them -- until I get enough money together to be able to pay for a decent level of ads.

To the OP -- I'm hoping it goes good for you and I like the way you're not thinking small.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Dunno. Worked for me on my first book and I've seen it work for others with a first book. You need a good cover and a very hooky premise and blurb. I found to my surprise that when I put my first book up, I had 10 or so sales overnight at 3.99 just on cover and blurb and title, I guess. I certainly didn't have a platform. My Facebook page had one fan--my best friend. Then I did a 3-day free offer and the book took off. As I said, I've seen it happen to others. Organic word of mouth can be pretty magical. 

I'm sure that launching with a platform and plan and budget is better. But once you do, it's on the book.


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## Zaitsev (Feb 21, 2016)

Did the OP say what day the launch day is? Like many others, I'd be interested to see what happens. I also meant to say I love the cover.



Rosalind J said:


> Dunno. Worked for me on my first book and I've seen it work for others with a first book. You need a good cover and a very hooky premise and blurb. I found to my surprise that when I put my first book up, I had 10 or so sales overnight at 3.99 just on cover and blurb and title, I guess. I certainly didn't have a platform. My Facebook page had one fan--my best friend. Then I did a 3-day free offer and the book took off. As I said, I've seen it happen to others. Organic word of mouth can be pretty magical.
> 
> I'm sure that launching with a platform and plan and budget is better. But once you do, it's on the book.


Yes, I get what you mean about the cover and blurb -- something I messed up big-style with my early books. Genre is an important factor too -- needs hungry readers. Also -- I like the confidence of the OP blurb.


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## 75814 (Mar 12, 2014)

Zaitsev said:


> But the book has to be *visible *for that to happen -- eyes have to be on it. It can be 'hooky and engaging' but if nobody sees it nothing is going to happen. If you already have an engaged readership then yes = word of mouth goes to work. So, for most unknown authors it does seem you have to splash out some serious cash upfront in terms of paid promos and ads. I see it all the time here when people list their launch promos -- its part of the whole strategy now, it would appear. Sure, you do that with a dud book and you've thrown your money away -- but for an unknown to 'launch' without a way of getting eyes on the book it's mostly not going to see many sales. It *can* happen but highly unlikely -- no? I'm actually holding back publishing more books -- though still writing them -- until I get enough money together to be able to pay for a decent level of ads.
> 
> To the OP -- I'm hoping it goes good for you and I like the way you're not thinking small.


The "serious cash" part is debatable. There are a lot of variables that go into that. Amazon algorithms incentivize new books at launch. Say you launch in a genre and on the same day, there are 500 other books launching in that genre. It'll be very easy to get lost right away without some serious advertising cash. But say on your launch day, there are only 10 other books also being launched. Now the algorithms will favor you a lot more.

Advertising will absolutely help your launch, particularly if it's a good book. I definitely recommend doing it, and it doesn't have to be anything overly expensive. You could advertise a $0.99 launch on BargainBooksy and Robin Reads for roughly about $100 or so total and that can really boost you up the charts. Or if $100 is too much, just choose one for $50. If that's still too much, do a few days of AMS ads at a few bucks a day.


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## Alvina (Oct 19, 2015)

Perry Constantine said:


> The "serious cash" part is debatable. There are a lot of variables that go into that. Amazon algorithms incentivize new books at launch. Say you launch in a genre and on the same day, there are 500 other books launching in that genre. It'll be very easy to get lost right away without some serious advertising cash. But say on your launch day, there are only 10 other books also being launched. Now the algorithms will favor you a lot more.
> 
> Advertising will absolutely help your launch, particularly if it's a good book. I definitely recommend doing it, and it doesn't have to be anything overly expensive. You could advertise a $0.99 launch on BargainBooksy and Robin Reads for roughly about $100 or so total and that can really boost you up the charts. Or if $100 is too much, just choose one for $50. If that's still too much, do a few days of AMS ads at a few bucks a day.


That's what I'm thinking for the launching of my upcoming new book!


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## BellaJames (Sep 8, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> No. The way to do it is to write a very hooky, engaging book that gets word of mouth promotion--people recommending it to their friends.
> 
> Unfortunately, you only know if you've done that once it happens. Everybody I know who's done it has been surprised.


This.

After months of research and communicating with bestselling authors, some with only a couple books out it seems that writing an engaging hooky (as Rosalind says) book first, is vital and important.

Get yourself a good cover and then get that book in front of the kinds of people who like your kinds of stories. 
Word of mouth marketing still works and many of the authors I have communicated with said they did not have a ton of money to invest on promotions at the start.

Some romance authors still use book bloggers and create some buzz on social media (I don't mean spending thousands on facebook ads). Some use twitter or instagram.

Authors like Cora Carmack, Jasinda Wilder and Martin Crosbie have talked about how they got sales very quickly (within hours and days) just by writing engaging books in a popular genre. Jasinda Wilder especially studied the romance books in the top 100 to see what was selling and why readers were enjoying those books.

How I see it, no amount of advertising and throwing money at promotion sites is going to sell a book that is not engaging. I also don't believe that a book that is not engaging or exciting to read is going to race up the charts because of a new shiny cover. *That is just my opinion*


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Zaitsev said:


> But the book has to be *visible *for that to happen -- eyes have to be on it. It can be 'hooky and engaging' but if nobody sees it nothing is going to happen. If you already have an engaged readership then yes = word of mouth goes to work. So, for most unknown authors it does seem you have to splash out some serious cash upfront in terms of paid promos and ads. I see it all the time here when people list their launch promos -- its part of the whole strategy now, it would appear.


Splashing serious cash up front may be part of some new author strategies, but I am not sure it is necessary. Now, granted that I released my best selling book in April 2013 so the times they have changed since then, but I think the algorithms still work to find and make organic successes.

Amazon's internal marketing and algorithms play a big role in making a book an organic success. Write a tropey book with a great cover and hooky blurb in a hungry genre? Amazon will sell it if it gets early sales. Amazon actively _wants_ to sell books. The algorithms are set up to reward sales with more sales and even greater visibility.

How does a book get those first sales that tickle Amazon algorithms?

An author can start six months before they publish and create an author platform on social media. They can start a mailing list before they even finish writing the book and invite friends and people they know on social media to join it. They can contact book bloggers and send out ARCs. They can then use the small mailing list and social media platform to get the book's first sales, and THEN Amazon takes over. It will try to sell the book and if it has luck, and the book has appeal, it will keep selling it based on the algorithms.

In addition to a mailing list and author platform, there are hungry readers out every morning looking at the new releases in their categories, clicking on covers and buying books. I'm sure that's where a book really starts becoming an organic success right out of the gate. It's those hungry Amazon readers who are looking for their next book and check out the new releases. They see a great cover, a hooky blurb and maybe based on that alone, they will one-click. Maybe they will read the preview and decide at that point.

Amazon sees that and says, "Hey, this book is selling. The people who bought it also bought these books. Hence, I will search my database of similar readers who bought books like that and show this new release to them." So Amazon shows that new release to other similar readers and voila -- if the book gets more sales from those placements, there is a feedback mechanism in place that feeds that book to even more potential readers, and so on and so on. If Amazon sees no sales at all, even after people have seen it by searching the new releases and being shown it, they will stop showing it to new potential readers. That's when a book fails to launch organically.

Now, if the author is savvy and has created an author platform and a mailing list, they can get those first sales. Amazon algorithms look at those first sales and uses that info to show the book to more similar readers. Based on how they respond, Amazon may show it to even more, etc.

With my bestseller, I had no mailing list. I had no ads. I had no marketing. I simply published the book and told some followers on Twitter and Goodreads. Some of my existing readers of my non-performing paranormal romance books went out and bought the book and so I got a few sales. In fact, I got 68 the first day, which I assume was my Twitter friends and Goodreads followers, who were paranormal romance readers, not erotic romance. Sales snowballed from there and I sold over 5,200 that first month. That book made $100K in its first year with no mailing list to start it off in the world and no bucketloads of money spent on the launch. I spent $25 for an ad on a book blog.

So, yes, you can spend a whack load of money to launch a book, but I don't think you have to. Maybe I'm wrong and have my head in the sand. Maybe things are so different now that a new author has to spend thousands of dollars on a launch. I don't honestly know. I only know what I did. I planned six months ahead of my release to start building my author platform and presence on social media, and engaged readers and authors before hand. I was able to leverage that into early sales and then the book sold on its own merits via Amazon algorithms.

I followed up the first book with a sequel six months later. That boosted sales of book one again.

Once the book falls off the cliff, then maybe you have to start tweaking the algorithms with ads and promotion -- and a new release. But cartloads of money were not necessary for my best seller.

Like I say, maybe it's different now.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Did the OP say when the release day is anywhere in the thread? I am genuinely interested to see how this pans out


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

sela said:


> Splashing serious cash up front may be part of some new author strategies, but I am not sure it is necessary. Now, granted that I released my best selling book in April 2013 so the times they have changed since then, but I think the algorithms still work to find and make organic successes.
> 
> Amazon's internal marketing and algorithms play a big role in making a book an organic success. Write a tropey book with a great cover and hooky blurb in a hungry genre? Amazon will sell it if it gets early sales. Amazon actively _wants_ to sell books. The algorithms are set up to reward sales with more sales and even greater visibility.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what happened to me. I sold decently the first couple days (thanks to a very low price point and great cover) and then once also-boughts kicked in, I started selling well again. By the third week, Amazon had sent a notice to readers of books like mine with my book in it and I was selling over 100 copies a day. I released book 2 twenty-three days after book 1, which pushed things up even further. I made over 20k the very next month on two books, one at .99 and one at 2.99. I spent nothing on marketing. My mailing list when I started was 39 people and I gave away book 1 free to them hoping to get reviews (I got a single one, yay, not much but it was something). This was in mid-2014, so not that long ago. I've been making six figures a year since. My entire marketing budget last year was less than 1,600 (most of that is Bookbub 4x).

Spending a ton of money on launch won't guarantee anything. It could help, if you do it right. But if you don't have the book to back it up with the passive marketing things that make it easy for people to one-click like a great cover, hooky blurb, great opening etc, it won't matter. A no-brainer easy to click price helps that a lot.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Annie B said:


> This is exactly what happened to me. I sold decently the first couple days (thanks to a very low price point and great cover) and then once also-boughts kicked in, I started selling well again. By the third week, Amazon had sent a notice to readers of books like mine with my book in it and I was selling over 100 copies a day. I released book 2 twenty-three days after book 1, which pushed things up even further. I made over 20k the very next month on two books, one at .99 and one at 2.99. I spent nothing on marketing. My mailing list when I started was 39 people and I gave away book 1 free to them hoping to get reviews (I got a single one, yay, not much but it was something). This was in mid-2014, so not that long ago. I've been making six figures a year since. My entire marketing budget last year was less than 1,600 (most of that is Bookbub 4x).
> 
> Spending a ton of money on launch won't guarantee anything. It could help, if you do it right. But if you don't have the book to back it up with the passive marketing things that make it easy for people to one-click like a great cover, hooky blurb, great opening etc, it won't matter. A no-brainer easy to click price helps that a lot.


Hi Annie  
To expand on what you said-
I think a lot of writers struggling for visibility hear those of us selling well say that you have to spend money in order to get sales, and that's the only thing they hear. There's more. Money needs to be spent wisely. Ads may or may not be effective. At best they are just a single component to a broader strategy. 
Good editing is a better place to spend money than ads. Even if the writer buys and ad that works, if the book is filled with errors and plot holes, what's the point? I don't spend much on ads typically either. Like you, the bulk goes to editing and covers - the product itself. You, me, Jana, Roslind, and the other writers we know, although writing in different genres, pretty much hold the same opinion about this. The book comes first. It must meet the standards we have set - and those standards are high. 
Laying that foundation is the the most important thing a writer can do in the beginning. It gets you through the lean times. It carries you when you want to try something new and have to wait a long time between releases. It ensures you have a chance at sticking around longer than the strong sales of a single book.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

To the OP, I'm fascinated to see how this turns out. Would you be willing to share sales numbers when it launches?

I'm so sorry that this is off topic but it has been raised a few times in this thread and I'm in a real mood about it. It's the old, "you can't write a decent book in three months" argument, which we've seen again and again here, but...

I just got this crap _today_ from a literary agent at a book signing (not mine). She was the one who approached me to chat, I was just drinking coffee in the bookshop cafe and enjoying the vibe, when she sat at my table and started moaning about all these "wannabee authors" who are flooding her market. Cue the "churn" argument that we all know and love .

When I pointed out that I was an author and could indeed write a book in three month she got the hump and left.

So, because my hackles are up and she didn't want to listen, *let me just break it down for anyone who doesn't get it yet

A 60k novel In three months:
*
*If you write 1000 words a day for two months you have a 60,000 word first draft. *
1k takes a touch typist about an hour. I'm slow and easily distracted so I generally try to do 3 hours a day and get around 2k in that time.

*An editor on standby will take about a week to do a 60k novel. You then have almost three weeks to make changes and polish it into shape. Then two days on a proofreader and at the end of 90 days (3 months, obviously) you have 60k written, edited, proofed, ready to publish.*

I'm running three pen names at the moment and I try to do it in even less than this, which you totally can if you are able to commit more than an hour a day. But even if that's all you have then it's 100% do-able!

And before anyone starts with the quality bashing - If you have a decent editor and a cleanish first draft then why should there be any compromise on quality?

If you write longer books it probably takes longer - no argument from me there. Time spent on research and plotting, yeah, *do* add that on top. But how long is that really in fiction? For me it's a day at most on plotting and then I research as I go. I genuinely do understand that some people want to spend longer on craft and that's great, but don't tell me it _can't_ be a decent book!

(and if you want to point out that the pen name shown here in my signature writes shorter books, then feel free, but my other names don't)

Sorry for the rant, I just couldnt stop myself today


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> To the OP, I'm fascinated to see how this turns out. Would you be willing to share sales numbers when it launches?
> 
> I'm so sorry that this is off topic but it has been raised a few times in this thread and I'm in a real mood about it. It's the old, "you can't write a decent book in three months" argument, which we've seen again and again here, but...
> 
> ...


Evenstar - your words are ambrosia to my ears. They make my heart sing. 90 to 100 words a minute is my typing speed on my laptop. 2000 words a day adds up to 60,000 words in 30 days. I can often do more, but at my age, I nod off! Good for you for taking on the pompous literary agents who are terrified that their cosy little world is going to be infiltrated by indies and they will no longer get their 10% for doing very little.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Evenstar said:


> To the OP, I'm fascinated to see how this turns out. Would you be willing to share sales numbers when it launches?
> 
> I'm so sorry that this is off topic but it has been raised a few times in this thread and I'm in a real mood about it. It's the old, "you can't write a decent book in three months" argument, which we've seen again and again here, but...
> 
> ...


My agent loves that I produce work quickly. In fact she brags about it. But then she's a part of a new breed of agents who are seeing the value of turning indies into hybrids. If a book isn't picked up by a publisher, no problem. She can sell the audio rights, and get me a nice fat advance that way. I send her a manuscript and I give her 6 months to sell it. If it doesn't go, I do it myself. I'm happy, she's happy, and my readers are happy. The only people who are not happy are the publishers when they see the book selling.
Whoever that woman was, she need to get with the program. The literary world is changing.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

This_Way_Down said:


> My agent loves that I produce work quickly. In fact she brags about it. But then she's a part of a new breed of agents who are seeing the value of turning indies into hybrids. If a book isn't picked up by a publisher, no problem. She can sell the audio rights, and get me a nice fat advance that way. I send her a manuscript and I give her 6 months to sell it. If it doesn't go, I do it myself. I'm happy, she's happy, and my readers are happy. The only people who are not happy are the publishers when they see the book selling.
> Whoever that woman was, she need to get with the program. The literary world is changing.


I agree, but I think that England will be the very last place on earth that will acknowledge this, the old guard are so firmly entrenched here.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Patrick Urban said:


> My 2 cents: I have no opinion on your goals, OP. I will say that if your passion for writing & publishing is as strong as your ambition, that's certainly an asset.


Problem is, strength of ambition is meaningless in this case, the OP has stated it's "sink or swim" so it's pretty clear if the book doesn't sail out of the ballpark, there will be no 'reset and try again." At least that's what "sink or swim" means--one does not try the butterfly after drowning during the breast stroke. Because you know, dead.

That's actually the sole problem that I have with anything the OP has aspired to. And it is true that KBoards is filled with writers who are looking for (and achieving) livable incomes based on dedicated, long-haul writing. It's also true that blue-sky thinking can (rarely) achieve the same results or better in a fraction of the time and effort with outside-the-box, hail-Mary action. But the mistake is betting the whole farm on the long-shot...it's not simply the going for the long-shot. It's the "sink or swim" that's the sticking point.

The advice I would give is go for it...if you can afford to tweak and try again. If you can't afford to attempt more than once, then you might consider more of the staid advice the experienced writers here are giving.


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> His book isn't even out yet. At this point can't we just leave it alone and let the poor man release and see where the chips may fall?


I agree. There's something to be said with just jumping in and giving it a whirl.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Evenstar said:


> I agree, but I think that England will be the very last place on earth that will acknowledge this, the old guard are so firmly entrenched here.


Ah, yes, Merry Olde England where they think driving an automatic car is not proper driving!


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Alrighty--just a quick update to check in (warning: this will be a BORING post!):

- I'm putting the final touches on the editing, completed the front matter, and will have the manuscript formatted on Friday (so hypothetically, it'll be ready to go).

- However, I've run into my first real challenge.

- I updated my KDP account to reflect the new corporation, but they kept imposing the 30% tax withholding during the tax interview process since I'm Canadian with a Canadian corporation.

- This was curious, as when I went through it with my social insurance number last year as a sole proprietor, I had no such issue. But after a bit of research (and this was where I made my error), it was suggested on multiple sites with users who've had the same problem that I needed to get an EIN (employee insurance number) from the IRS. So I had to get in touch with them via long distance, and got that done, but still had the 30% withholding on KDP.

- I found out that there's a section on the tax interview which asks, "Do you derive the income for which you are claiming treaty benefits and, if applicable, meet the requirements of the treaty provision dealing with limits...", and if you're in a country that has a tax treaty with the US, you need to select "Yes," and then there's a drop down which asks why you did, and in my case, "I meet and pass the ownership and erosion test." Then, the 30% withholding goes away.

- I unfortunately entered my IRS EIN anyway (in addition to my Canadian BN: business number, which would've worked by itself), so now have an "up to 60 day" processing period while they check with the IRS. So I contacted Amazon to try and get the tax interview submission cancelled, but it sounds like a long shot. If it doesn't work, I'll ask them to delete the KDP account since I have nothing published anyway, and I'll try to make another. If all else fails, I'll just publish via Pronoun.

- Since I don't need the EIN to get rid of the 30% withholding, I've gotta mail the IRS and ask them to close that business account to avoid issues later on.

So just a heads-up for any other Canadian corporations setting up with KDP since this was a pretty big hassle, and the Amazon tax interview process is worded in a way where you're bound to make errors. You live and you learn, of course! I'm also waiting for my ISBN from Industry Canada (applied last Thursday, but it's like an up to ten business day waiting period), so hopefully I'll receive that before Friday and be ready to go. Assuming the tide is really against me, I'll have to postpone to next week, but really hopeful to release this thing wide on Friday.

Thanks everyone!


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

The waiting period doesn't mean you can't publish, only that any royalties you might earn will be subject to the 30% withholding. You can reclaim those, but I think you have to wait till the end of financial year. Not sure, as I am in the UK. I thought that, as a corporation, you needed the ITIN number rather than the EIN, but it has all changed so not sure.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Doglover said:


> The waiting period doesn't mean you can't publish, only that any royalties you might earn will be subject to the 30% withholding. You can reclaim those, but I think you have to wait till the end of financial year. Not sure, as I am in the UK. I thought that, as a corporation, you needed the ITIN number rather than the EIN, but it has all changed so not sure.


Yep--apparently that's correct. If you've got an SSN, ITIN, or BN (in my case), all of those will work in lieu of the US TIN and EIN. I just kept getting hit with the 30% withholding (which I had heard was a whole process to get back if you don't get rid of it in the tax interview process) no matter what number I entered, so resorted to applying for the EIN as a last resort, but the real culprit was saying no to the "derived income" question. Made sure to go on CreateSpace afterwards and did the tax interview there so I wouldn't forget and run into the same issue later on.


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## Anna_ (Jan 18, 2015)

R. T. Leone said:


> So just a heads-up for any other Canadian corporations setting up with KDP since this was a pretty big hassle, and the Amazon tax interview process is worded in a way where you're bound to make errors. You live and you learn, of course! I'm also waiting for my ISBN from Industry Canada (applied last Thursday, but it's like an up to ten business day waiting period), so hopefully I'll receive that before Friday and be ready to go. Assuming the tide is really against me, I'll have to postpone to next week, but really hopeful to release this thing wide on Friday.
> 
> Thanks everyone!


Thanks for the info. That's good to know.

And good luck!


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Evenstar said:


> And before anyone starts with the quality bashing -


Gah - I hate the slow=good/fast=bad attitude. I'm pretty slow myself, but I know at least one hybrid author who does insane output. Every author has their own process and some authors are fast, either because that's one of their gifts or because they've practiced and worked their way to a place where they can produce words in volume. I'm not saying everyone can do it well, but just because you write fast does not mean quality suffers and just because you write slow doesn't mean you are producing something people want to read.


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## Dax (Oct 20, 2016)

I also want to extend my thanks to the OP for his openness. It's a positive, constructive, attitude, and it seems so far to be a very professional approach to the launch, as well as to the amount of criticism he's received. Not everyone would withstand that much pressure so professionally.  While I'm a little skeptical, I'm still looking forward to his report. 

I would suggest that no one who is in severe financial straits copy the OP's approach and spend a great deal of money that they can't afford while also taking, IMO, a risky pricing strategy.  The impression that I've gotten from the OP is that he won't go homeless if he fails to recoup his investment. Just wanted to put that out there.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

Just wanted to add, if this strategy falls flat, RT always has the option to fall in with more conventional pricing. $3.99 on KU with $0.99 offers every three months . . . if he's correct and his copyrighting will attract people that will still work. Perhaps not 100k, but you never know.

Still, I'm hoping this works out of the gate. Always love a success story.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

(Thanks for the kind comments up above!)

Just completed the formatting today on Vellum, and submitted to KDP. I've gotta wait until that process is complete before doing the same on Pronoun (sans Amazon distribution; they need to see the Amazon store page to make sure it's there). I'd leave some comments / analysis about the process, but am so washed out, that I'll leave it to another day. Meanwhile, here's a couple of screenshots (very cool feeling hitting that "Save and Publish" button for the first time!):


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

It is up on KDP now  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

Congratulations, and good luck! You only hit "publish" for the first time once in your life, so enjoy it  

I had a quick look at your Look Inside. Your blurb suggests (states?) that the reader is the protagonist, which in itself is quite unique. But the Look Inside doesn't support this. I don't want any spoilers, but is it fair to assume that the reader does become the protagonist, eventually? And is the mixture of so many tenses in the story part of that twist, or is that just your writing style? 

I think your cover looks great, btw. It definitely works in thumbnail.


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## Zaitsev (Feb 21, 2016)

Congrats! Hope it goes great for you.


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## Yayoi (Apr 26, 2016)

I have been actually following this thread for days now and while I'm a little skeptical just like the others, I wish you nothing but the best and I really hope you'll do well. So good luck!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Just a heads up -- there seems to be some formatting issue, at least in the Look Inside. The Table of Contents is broken under categories like "File1.ini", File2.tmp", etc., and these appear as headers before chapters too.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

crow.bar.beer said:


> Just a heads up -- there seems to be some formatting issue, at least in the Look Inside. The Table of Contents is broken under categories like "File1.ini", File2.tmp", etc., and these appear as headers before chapters too.


Pretty sure that was intentional... Though maybe not wise as it will be strange/confusing to anyone but computer nerds.


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

This_Way_Down said:


> You shouldn't be insulted by this, though you might be. You need an editor.


I think this is a really difficult thing to learn, at least for new authors. I know that as I write my (first) book, and I plan the cover, website, blurb etc the one thing I do not plan for is an editor. But the more I think about it, the more I think that that it is not everyONE who needs an editor, but every BOOK. It's not personal, it's just life. And like you say, it's def not a reflection of the writer or his abilities. I hope I listen to your (indirect) advice and get one before I hit publish!


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> I read through some of the "look inside". You shouldn't be insulted by this, though you might be. You need an editor. Don't get me wrong. I do this for a living and my drafts are terrible. I make all sorts of mistakes and my prose can get repetitive to the point you'd want to pull your hair out. Which is why I hire a good editor.


He said he paid 2k for a trad-pub editor.

I didn't see too many mistakes when I skimmed through the look inside, but I did see some things that stood out to me. This line, for example:

"It was now 2029, and both Daniel and I were thirty-years-old."

I don't know if an editor would say to you, "show don't tell" in this case, but weaving the facts into the story rather than having the narrator blurt them out comes across as less jolting to the reader. And although I think "was now" can be used, to readers it can feel like a mixing of tenses. I would avoid using "was now" in any case


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

I just have to ask...you have this in the YA category? How is this young adult? A 30 year old protagonist is definitely past the YA age. Nothing about the sample reads "teens" at all.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2017)

AuthorX said:


> He said he paid 2k for a trad-pub editor.
> 
> I didn't see too many mistakes when I skimmed through the look inside, but I did see some things that stood out to me. This line, for example:
> 
> ...


I actually deleted the post because I thought to myself that it would probably start a big mess. And a pointless one at that. But there was a lot of mistakes. Tense changes, improper phrasing, poor word choices, and several other things a good editor would have caught right away.


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## Remington Kane (Feb 19, 2011)

As I said I would, I just bought a copy. The best of luck to you, R.T.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Congratulations!

Finishing and publishing your first book is always a significant accomplishment and a Very Big Deal. Most people who call themselves writers will never get this far.

Pop some champagne and enjoy this moment


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## Allyson J. (Nov 26, 2014)

Congrats & good luck! Enjoy the ride!


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

I, for one, love your chapter-titling concept. And I like the overall layout you got out of Vellum.
Best of luck to you!


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> So just a heads-up for any other Canadian corporations setting up with KDP since this was a pretty big hassle, and the Amazon tax interview process is worded in a way where you're bound to make errors.


I believe this is true of all non-US corporations. There have been very similar complaints on the KDP forums. The moral, I think, is always to use one's personal tax-identification number when filling out the tax interview. (That would presumably not be true of a "US person.")


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

The sample answers a few questions that cropped up earlier.

It's not LitRPG.

The blurb tense is for effect only. The narrative is standard first-person.

It's not really YA. The protagonist is 30.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Guy Riessen said:


> I, for one, love your chapter-titling concept. And I like the overall layout you got out of Vellum.


I think it would work if it was formatted to actually look digital.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Give it a chance... says the woman who sells $9.99 books. 

It's early yet, the book just published and Amazon has been having major issues. And Also Boughts haven't connected yet, that takes 4 days. 

If the book doesn't take off after Also Boughts hit, then the internal systems didn't pick it up. Granted, a publisher's advertising spend can influence, I find my best money spent is 2-3 days AFTER Also Boughts hit to help momentum.

It's very easy to forget what's it like to publish a book on a cold, brand new pen name with no mailing list or established customer base.

OP is kicking major tail. Top <#200,000 is top 5% of the 4 million books in the Kindle Store.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

TimothyEllis said:


> All in all, could have been worse. But for your stated aim? I hope your snorkel is particularly long.


Wow, dude, chill. He didn't start this thread to have people shouting insults at him if his book doesn't hit it out of the park. IIRC, he didn't have some massive promo push for this, so I'd expect a slow build, not a major launch. If he doesn't sell as much as he wants, he'll probably adjust something. The way I understand it, that was kind of part of the plan. Give him time to figure it out. There's no need to dump on someone like that just because he didn't shoot to #1 on his first day as a brand new author with no/little promotion.

_Edited quoted post. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


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## Yayoi (Apr 26, 2016)

Man, wish you the best for your ongoing efforts! I know some people are pretty skeptical, rightfully so, but fight on anyway!


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

TimothyEllis said:



> So dropping like a stone.


The book only came out a few days ago & also boughts have kicked in yet. Why don't you lay off? I don't know what your issue is, but you have been continuously snarky and obnoxious in this thread.

Not so long ago you started a thread whining how your books had tanked. You received nothing but support from this community, what a shame you can't act in a similar fashion. Next time you come here looking to prop up your sales/rank/ego you might get the same responses as you are dishing out.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

TimothyEllis said:


> Offhand thought:
> You dont put a book into Teen & Young Adult because you're targeting them to read your book. You put it in there because the book has a teen or young adult main character.


More typically, it's both.

This story, at least in the sample, appears to be neither. YA has gotten rougher in the last decade or two so I guess one could argue the target market...


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

TimothyEllis said:


> All I'm doing is highlighting this was not the way to launch your first book, so no-one follows this in the future.


I think the rest of us see you jumping to premature conclusions so you can rub the OP's face in the failure you expect him to have.

There's giving critical but constructive advice, and there's being mean. You're coming off as mean.

Move on to other threads, please.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

TimothyEllis said:


> What makes you think also-boughts are going to make any difference here? You dont get also-boughts off practically no sales. There is no magical also-bought boost here.
> 
> No, I haven't. I've been totally practical about what has been a totally impractical approach to launching a book in my genre.
> 
> ...


Timothy, I for one respect your way of helping. In the future if I come with some out of whack method to do my book please lead me back in the right direction.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

Timothy, while I think the OP's goals are unattainable, he said in the first post that he's considered his method won't succeed and he'll be forced to backpedal on the price. He can see the sales dashboard and he can understand what's happening. He doesn't need his support system using phrases like "dropping like a stone" and "belly flopped into obscurity".

Maybe you could share some advice instead? You've done incredibly well in sci-fi. He's had a quiet launch; some commiseration and help would probably be very appreciated.

One thing to note - the book has been out for one day. The 300 sales on launch day only happens when an author has a massive following. Any time a book from an unknown writer makes it big, sales start off small on the first day and grow over the following weeks. It takes time for word of mouth to spread. Those "one hit wonders" have the inverse of a traditional sales arc; instead of big numbers on the first day followed by a gradual decline, they start off small and build up. From what I've experienced and seen, I think the high price will deter organic word of mouth, but it's not totally impossible - and RT has a better chance if he decides to lower the price.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Kate. said:


> Timothy, while I think the OP's goals are unattainable, he said in the first post that he's considered his method won't succeed and he'll be forced to backpedal on the price. He can see the sales dashboard and he can understand what's happening. He doesn't need his support system using phrases like "dropping like a stone" and "belly flopped into obscurity".
> 
> Maybe you could share some advice instead? You've done incredibly well in sci-fi. He's had a quiet launch; some commiseration and help would probably be very appreciated.
> 
> One thing to note - the book has been out for one day. The 300 sales on launch day only happens when an author has a massive following. Any time a book from an unknown writer makes it big, sales start off small on the first day and grow over the following weeks. It takes time for word of mouth to spread. Those "one hit wonders" have the inverse of a traditional sales arc; instead of big numbers on the first day followed by a gradual decline, they start off small and build up. From what I've experienced and seen, I think the high price will deter organic word of mouth, but it's not totally impossible - and RT has a better chance if he decides to lower the price.


Fwiw, that's not true. I've seen unknown writers (myself included back in 2014) hit 50+ sales day one whit a book. I think Timothy was being pretty reasonable with the analysis here. The OP stated the goal was to make 100k in the first year with this book. I think it's fair to analyze why that might not work or what's going to need to happen compared to what is happening for it to work out etc.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2017)

I don't know why one would put a target of 100k on a book if they've never published before or don't have people with a lot of experience overseeing this. There are some marketing gurus who can write a book under a new name and launch it up the charts (although usually not at 9.99, that price / expectations is usually for the big 5 with something they've already paid for to take off). If the author is on his own he could write 20 of those books and never come close to 100k. Or he could be the next big thing. It's not something to predict, other than to expect it not to sell, and then be pleasantly surprised if it does.


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## Kate. (Oct 7, 2014)

Annie B said:


> Fwiw, that's not true. I've seen unknown writers (myself included back in 2014) hit 50+ sales day one whit a book. I think Timothy was being pretty reasonable with the analysis here. The OP stated the goal was to make 100k in the first year with this book. I think it's fair to analyze why that might not work or what's going to need to happen compared to what is happening for it to work out etc.


Fifty sales is a fantastic first day for an unknown writer! It's a testament to how well you know your genre. My breakout story had no sales at all on its first three days, sold 45 copies the following week, 71 the week after that, and 220 the third week. I was shocked when copies started moving. But I had to go through several flops before that happened.

Edit: Should have added, that was over a year ago, so OP won't be publishing into the same market I was. And that story didn't come close to earning 100k in its first year; it took three more books published over eight months before I was able to quit my day job. Just throwing that in for clarity. =)


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Kate. said:


> Timothy, while I think the OP's goals are unattainable, he said in the first post that he's considered his method won't succeed and he'll be forced to backpedal on the price. He can see the sales dashboard and he can understand what's happening. He doesn't need his support system using phrases like "dropping like a stone" and "belly flopped into obscurity".
> 
> Maybe you could share some advice instead? You've done incredibly well in sci-fi. He's had a quiet launch; some commiseration and help would probably be very appreciated.
> 
> One thing to note - the book has been out for one day. The 300 sales on launch day only happens when an author has a massive following. Any time a book from an unknown writer makes it big, sales start off small on the first day and grow over the following weeks. It takes time for word of mouth to spread. Those "one hit wonders" have the inverse of a traditional sales arc; instead of big numbers on the first day followed by a gradual decline, they start off small and build up. From what I've experienced and seen, I think the high price will deter organic word of mouth, but it's not totally impossible - and RT has a better chance if he decides to lower the price.


My most recent release was on an unknown pen name. I didn't cross market to any of my other pens, and the only initial marketing I did was make a free post to a a single facebook group. The book got 70 sales on the first day and about 40 full read through in page reads via KU... So roughly 100+...

300+ sales per day would require marketing or a lot of pre-launch build up on an unknown pen I think, but possible.

To do some math, at $9.99 and 70% royalties, the OP would need to make about 14,285 sales the first year to hit 100k in revenue. That is roughly 39 sales per day.

At 39 sales per day, I think he'd be sitting between the 8,000-20,000 ranking in the Amazon store. Right now he is at 150,000+ which indicates about 2 sales or so per day. That is totally NOT bad for a book priced this high, but he's got a long way to hit his goal. Let's assume he gets another sale per day from the other storefronts and pulls in about 3 sales daily... actually, let's make that 4 sales per day to be generous. That will get him about $10,000 in revenue this year.

IMO, that is a successful first book launch, assuming he could maintain those numbers. However, he is still in his 30 day period, and when his 'new release' preference with the algorithms dries up, he will get fall off the cliff. There is still a chance that he could get a flood of great reviews pouring in or something miraculous happens, but 1 or 2 sales per day will be the most likely scenario a month or two from now.

Still not bad for a first release if he hits $5k this year, I think. But all that revenue is destroyed by his $2k trad pub editor, setting up a company, etc. A 10k goal this year would have been more achievable if he had launched at a competitive price, and it wouldn't take him ages to get also-boughts. But I think (hope) he will break even on his costs at the very least.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

39 sales a day ranks you at about 5,000-6,000 in the Kindle store right now, if you want more accurate info


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks -- I woke up this morning to a whole passel of reports . . . . . how about we lay off critiquing the guy's book and each others' points of view, and focus on the case study presented by the OP's release method and stated goals. And without calling anyone any names.

Any further such posts will be deleted -- and as we have time to read through more carefully, previous posts may be further edited or removed.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Annie B said:


> 39 sales a day ranks you at about 5,000-6,000 in the Kindle store right now, if you want more accurate info


Annie B- do you happen to know about how many sales are needed to launch into the top 10,000? Thinking of trying for that goal for my first book, but I'll lower it if the number of sales required seems too unrealistic.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Sarah Shaw said:


> Annie B- do you happen to know about how many sales are needed to launch into the top 10,000? Thinking of trying for that goal for my first book, but I'll lower it if the number of sales required seems too unrealistic.


It takes more sales to hit a rank than to keep it, so keep that in mind. For top 10k, I'm not sure the exact number to tip you there on a release, but I'd aim for 50-75 sales the first day to be safe. The other good thing about that is it seems to take about 50 or so sales to get also-boughts populating (the algos need sales to know what books people who bought your book would be interested in). If you get enough sales, also-boughts seem to take about 3 days to populate. Longer if you haven't given the algos enough information.

Doesn't mean a book is dead if it launches and doesn't hit these numbers, but it means that the Zon juice won't kick in probably until a big promo push or something that puts a lot of eyeballs and one-clicks onto the book. Zon juice on a new release is the most powerful juice I know.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

As to why Also Boughts help...

Here is how a new release performs for me. All 15 titles. 

Day 1-4, mostly my announcements selling the book but I do always have sales before I even get the link and that's true for all JAFF so in some genres where there is a shortage of titles for a specific niche there is a mechanism on Amazon that jumps on it to push it right away to that keyword niche's fans.

Day 4 or 5 the Also Boughts hit. First my book pointing at them, then their book pointing at me. On my first jaff is took a week to sell 100 copies, now I sell 100 copies first 24-48 hours. By the time Also Boughts hit, I've sold 200-300. This is also international. Over 25% of my Amazon earnings are not .Com sales.

When Also Boughts hit, sales rise again with 3-4 days being 80-100. On Day 7 is the normal peak, where I hit 125% of usually the peak of Day 1/2. So if Day 1 I have 85 sales, peak day is usually 100+.

When you are talking about higher price points this is a lot of money for not insane performance. 500 sales first week is $3500. 

I totally respect other authors may not have the same experiences as this on their new releases. And some probably even make more money than I do. But this is one example of how Also Boughts hitting helps one micropublisher.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Annie B said:


> Doesn't mean a book is dead if it launches and doesn't hit these numbers, but it means that the Zon juice won't kick in probably until a big promo push or something that puts a lot of eyeballs and one-clicks onto the book. Zon juice on a new release is the most powerful juice I know.


Ah- good information. Thanks!



Elizabeth Ann West said:


> When you are talking about higher price points this is a lot of money for not insane performance. 500 sales first week is $3500.


I'll keep that in mind for later books, but I don't think I have the courage to offer a first book at a much higher than usual price point. On the other hand, based on my own feelings as a reader I don't think I'd probably want to go lower than $1.99, and then only for a limited period of time. I've begun to be very reluctant to download free or buy 99 cent books and it sounds like others may be starting to feel the same way.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

I'm rooting for the OP. I'm buying the book! Two questions though:

1)Have you thought about putting your book in KU to help visibility?
2)Have you thought about selling the book for 0.99 cents for a day to populate the Also boughts to help with visibility?

Good Luck!


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

This is a mesmerizing thread! I too have ridiculously audacious goals from my first 12m as a writer, and I will share them here as I gain clarity on what can be achieved and how. And I hope TimothyEllis chimes in when I do. I will certainly be listening. 

Without being personal about the OP or his book ie I am speaking in GENERAL terms here, what fascinates me about this thread is that nobody seems to be saying that a book has to be **good** to sell well. (however you define "good" or "well"). Even before the book came out people were talking about launch strategies, marketing push, the correct blurb etc, but nobody seemed to be  explicitly saying that the book has to be outstanding to a)sell at $10 and b) continue to sell well at $10. 

So that's interesting to me. Let's assume that an author (think OP) had written Harry Potter. Now he launches the book at $10, with no marketing. He gets 2 or 3 sales, or whatever he got. Let's assume that some of US buy it, and read it. Now we would, presumably, be quite excited for the author. This is a great book! Superbly written! Engaging. etc etc. What chance does this book have of making $100k, assuming that next book will only come out in 14months? I have NO idea. Can very few, quiet sales launch a book into stardom? Or is it all based on luck (like, the NYT book editor reads it and loves it...)

Depending on the answer above, what chance does a book that is NOT Harry Potter have of making $100k per year? Does it matter if it is brilliantly crafted and mesmerizing but with weak launch strategy, or can it get away with being rather weak but brilliantly strategised? (I can think of good examples of the latter, but am not that familiar with examples of the former). 

In other words, in order to be financially successful as an essentially standalone book for 12m, should an author concentrate on:
a) brilliant, well edited story that hits the tropes and expectations
b) brilliant, well thought out marketing
c) not a hope in hell if both a) and b) are not hit like a nail with a hammer

Once again, nothing specific about the OP's book here, but rather a focus on launch strategy in general. 

(My personal feeling as a writer is that **I** could not hope to achieve any success without releasing at least THREE books, well crafted and relatively well marketed given my financial and newbie limitations).


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

So, for what it is worth, with a book priced this high the OP is making the same income per sale as about 20 books at a release price of $0.99. He's obviously had at least one or two sales. That means his income already is equivalent to at least 20-40 $0.99 books. Most debut authors would be thrilled with selling 40 books their first 24 hours, especially without a major promo push.

But....

Some of you have already noticed one of the problems with this. Also-boughts are not going to populate on a sale here a sale there, which is going to hurt long-term visibility big time. He's not getting the visibility from hitting lists. He's not attracting tons of readers for the next book. The OP has stated he's going to use AMS ads, but that's going to mean paying for visibility he could have gotten for free at a lower price point on release. It didn't have to be $0.99, just something people would take a chance on. Also, for most of us AMS ads have been a steady trickle rather than huge bumps like you get with other forms of promo. 

Ann is right. This is an interesting case study, if nothing else. 

If the OP would like to come back and open it up for a post-game and suggestions for the next launch, we can do that later. Right now, he's a new author in the first days of release. All things considered, he's actually doing better than many. Let's keep this supportive.


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## A J Sika (Apr 22, 2016)

Sarah Shaw said:


> Annie B- do you happen to know about how many sales are needed to launch into the top 10,000? Thinking of trying for that goal for my first book, but I'll lower it if the number of sales required seems too unrealistic.


My most recent romance novel launched in the low 10,000s (I think it was 10,800 or something) on Day 1 with 16 sales and 1,967 KENP read (Don't know how many people borrowed the book on that day). However note that by Day 2 it'd risen to 3,000s with 59 sales and 16,918 KENP read, and it only continued to rise after that (peak ranking was in the 400s)


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Annie B said:


> 39 sales a day ranks you at about 5,000-6,000 in the Kindle store right now, if you want more accurate info


This was pretty close to my experience launching in the fall, too. That was at $2.99 with no KU, but the book had been selling on pre-order so it had a little established rank history.


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## lincolnjcole (Mar 15, 2016)

Good luck with this. Seems quite ambitious.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Starbright said:


> Without being personal about the OP or his book ie I am speaking in GENERAL terms here, what fascinates me about this thread is that nobody seems to be saying that a book has to be **good** to sell well. (however you define "good" or "well"). ...
> So that's interesting to me. Let's assume that an author (think OP) had written Harry Potter. ...


First off, best of luck to the OP. I was taken by your generous list of dedications in your book's front matter.

Re Starbright and quoted point about a "good" book not being a feature of most of the conversation:
I think the primary reason is that it's entirely too amorphous a concept to serve in a practical discussion.

You mention Harry Potter. I loved the Potter books. Apparently quite a number of editors and publishing houses did not; it was an uphill journey to get it published. Perhaps that was simply their mistaken assessment of the market and not a commentary on the book itself. But even if that were the case (I suspect not), it still fails by the standards of many marms and industry insiders who think they know proper writing.

One example to that point: A bit more than 2/3rds of Rowling's dialogue tags in the Potter books run afoul of the aforementioned marms and gatekeepers fetishized proscription on descriptive tags ("chortled" "mumbled" etc) and roughly half of her dialogue tags use the even greater "transgression" of adverbial descriptives ("she said stiffly" "said Dumbledore gently" "said Professor Gonagall irritably" and so on).

I find such usage quite appropriate to the tone and content of her story and charming. Obviously millions either don't notice, don't care, or share my sentiment that it works. Yet, a pre-success discussion among writers, publishers, and writing class marms would challenge the usage and very likely disqualify it as an example of the "good" book you discuss.

An example where I am on the other side of the assessment would be any analysis of Fifty Shades. I find it appalling drek. The writing is atrocious and there are some 3 score "My inner goddess this..." sentences of precisely that form, which, whatever you think of the sentiment or locution, is ridiculous saturation and repetition. Yet, obviously millions think very much otherwise and love the book. It is "good" by whatever calculus matters to them. Which is fine.

Part of the beauty of this whole enterprise is that there is a grand pluralism to what is and isn't a "good" book. It makes talking about it for practical purposes rather difficult but makes it a great deal more interesting.

So, we turn to the marketing aspect which is more easily defined and readily tested.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

Storytelling trumps craft. It isn't about a book being well written, it's about a story being well told. Entertain a reader and they will forgive a multitude of sins.

Pristine craft cannot save a lackluster story.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Kristen Painter said:


> Storytelling trumps craft. It isn't about a book being well written, it's about a story being well told. Entertain a reader and they will forgive a multitude of sins.
> 
> Pristine craft cannot save a lackluster story.


Absolutely. But of course, we on the boards can't assess the storytelling without reading the story. So it again speaks to Stardust's question and wraps us back to the marketing strategy and related discussion as the primary focus for the OP.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2017)

On the positive side - your cover looks nice (though the title part of the font needs to pop a bit more), and your writing has potential. I feel the blurb needs work. But that's subjective. 
What I am saying is not only my opinion, but the consensus of a group of authors who have been following this. There isn't a single writer among us who hasn't made either the Amazon top 100 kindle store several times, USA Today, or the NYT lists - and some 2 or even 3 of them. 
Fire your editors. Or if you have good editors, stop ignoring them. You have potential. But if you intend to charge big bucks, your work had better be professional. As of now, it's not. It could be with the right person working on it. But if you did, in fact, take editorial advice, you got ripped off. 

The legwork. You didn't do enough. A strong release demands an enormous amount of work. This means networking, joining readers groups and getting to know them without spamming, contacting bloggers, soliciting review, getting interviews, etc. It can take months before you are actually ready for prime time. Ad placement can help, but it's expensive - it can exceed $10,000 easily for the best ads. Most people don't have that to spend. But you can make up for it through relentless promotion. 

You see without the foundation this is all for nothing. I think you priced way too high. And given the poor editing it's probably a good thing not too many people dished that much out. It might make them very angry and could end up hurting you down the road.

I would get the book edited by someone who knows what they're doing, spend some time laying your foundation, perhaps lower your price a bit (maybe to $7.99 if you're determined to get top dollar), and re-release as if this never happened.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

This_Way_Down said:


> But if you did, in fact, take editorial advice, you got ripped off.


I always wonder about this. The OP says he paid 2K for professional editing. This is for a 370 page book. Depending on what went down, not an insane price to pay. I can get three rounds for less, but my current editor quotes after reading a writing sample and Liv and I are considered to turn in relatively clean drafts and both have experience in how books work. (After a few good laps through the revision pool, we've both developed some self-editing runs for pet problems).

So I always wonder... If you are an editor who has a flat per-word price, and then you get something that needs a lot more work than you're used to doing (from a new author, for example) - at what point do you just focus on the biggest issues? I mean, yes, I would consider at least getting the first chapter to a high sheen to be critical for hooking in readers, especially for a thriller. But honestly, we don't know what the editorial process was here. We're not privy to the original nor the suggested edits.

And I agree. The writing has potential. Beyond that... I'm not the target audience, so we'll see what his readers think.


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

> Part of the beauty of this whole enterprise is that there is a grand pluralism to what is and isn't a "good" book. It makes talking about it for practical purposes rather difficult but makes it a great deal more interesting.
> 
> So, we turn to the marketing aspect which is more easily defined and readily tested.


Thank you for that. It makes perfect sense, together with Kristen's sentiment that storytelling trumps craft.

(And I've come to realise that, very often, what I consider to be a bad book, is actually a badly _edited_ book. Given that the pre-edited drafts of my favorite books might have been equally "bad", I'm going to be more aware of the difference between the story and the edit. Sometimes all a book needs is a good clean-up, and the story will shine. Equally, what might annoy me in terms of writing style might be barely noticed, or cared about, by others (like your Harry Potter dialog example). To each his own...and let the marketing gods prevail!)


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

IreneP said:


> So I always wonder... If you are an editor who has a flat per-word price, and then you get something that needs a lot more work than you're used to doing (from a new author, for example) - at what point do you just focus on the biggest issues? I mean, yes, I would consider at least getting the first chapter to a high sheen to be critical for hooking in readers, especially for a thriller. But honestly, we don't know what the editorial process was here. We're not privy to the original nor the suggested edits.


Regardless of the editorial process, no editor who takes $2k should ever allow a paragraph with mixed tenses to pass. It's simple enough thing to fix, and in this case deleting a whole bunch of "have"s and "would"s would have done the trick.

If the OP did indeed pay $2k *and* he saw the editorial process through to the end (as opposed to not dishing out for the final edit round), then I really feel sorry for him. OF COURSE if you pay that kind of money, and you have poured your heart and soul into the book, you are entitled to think that you have indeed done everything craft-wise to ensure the book succeeds, and is in fact worth $10.

I really hope that the OP shares his editorial process with us, because that might be the most valuable lesson to learn from this launch exercise, especially for new authors.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Starbright said:


> Regardless of the editorial process, no editor who takes $2k should ever allow a paragraph with mixed tenses to pass. It's simple enough thing to fix, and in this case deleting a whole bunch of "have"s and "would"s would have done the trick.
> 
> If the OP did indeed pay $2k *and* he saw the editorial process through to the end (as opposed to not dishing out for the final edit round), then I really feel sorry for him. OF COURSE if you pay that kind of money, and you have poured your heart and soul into the book, you are entitled to think that you have indeed done everything craft-wise to ensure the book succeeds, and is in fact worth $10.
> 
> I really hope that the OP shares his editorial process with us, because that might be the most valuable lesson to learn from this launch exercise, especially for new authors.


Regarding the editing, this was a whole thing that would take an essay to summarize. Suffice it to say, a majority of the editor's changes were omissions (almost a quarter of the book, which inadvertently created a ton of plot holes--something I was more concerned with--as I think the editor didn't anticipate how deep the story was going to be), so I needed to self-edit a portion of the manuscript since I had to keep that text to keep the whole story from falling apart.

I accepted most of the grammatical changes, but it seems that _caused_ more tense issues instead of repairing the few existing ones that were there. I nailed everything down in the second half of the book, but given life circumstances and time constraints (this was already on a considerable delay), I fixed as much as I could on my own and published.

To summarize, I made a human error with my selection of editing service, and it's 100% my responsibility. I wanted to take this project extremely seriously and equated price with quality, and learned that high quality isn't always what you get when you're spending a lot of money (... _Hewlett Packard_). I'm in the process of getting a second edit done right now (specifically to fix the tense issues), and will update the digital manuscript imminently.

Thanks to everyone for their helpful tips!


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

For editing, I have found that it works much better if you get one person to work on plot and continuity, and then fix, and then get someone to do a line edit for sentence readability and once that's settled, get a proofread. Different people have different skills.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> For editing, I have found that it works much better if you get one person to work on plot and continuity, and then fix, and then get someone to do a line edit for sentence readability and once that's settled, get a proofread. Different people have different skills.


This exactly. And the proofreader needs to be a completely fresh set of eyes. If your dev/line editors are the same person, they are just as likely to miss small typos as you are after working their way through it twice.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

If the book isn't good, the price won't matter. I think that's why quality isn't talked about that much in this thread. For one, none of us could see the book itself until it was published. For another, quality is a tough thing to talk about because craft after a certain level gets pretty subjective. 

However, hitting that basic level of craft and avoiding a lot of newbie/first time novelist mistakes is important. That's why I would never advise someone to publish their first book unless they had a lot of developmental editing or they were one of those people who had come sideways at writing fiction (from another kind of writing) and had some level of craft mastery before they wrote a novel.

The upside is there's no real penalty for failure. I think that in the case of this book and this thread, the thing pulling people into talking about it is that there seems to be higher stakes than someone with a 50 dollar premade who puts up their first book. This book has thousands invested into it already and the author stated that he needs to earn 100,000 in the first year.  So in the case of this first book, there are stakes that most first time publishing authors don't have.

I don't think anyone has been unfair. If anything, I think we're being a little too gentle to someone who stands to lose thousands of dollars by making mistakes that could be avoided, but that's the Kboards way. To the OP, I would say listen to the people who have done what you want to do, the people who make six figures a year. There's a bunch of them in this thread and they've given you good advice.  It's too late to recapture your launch, but the book is still in its 30 day opening, so it isn't too late to gain a little better visibility.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Annie B said:


> I don't think anyone has been unfair. If anything, I think we're being a little too gentle to someone who stands to lose thousands of dollars by making mistakes that could be avoided, but that's the Kboards way. To the OP, I would say listen to the people who have done what you want to do, the people who make six figures a year. There's a bunch of them in this thread and they've given you good advice.


Responding to general point about KBoards, here, rather than to R.T.'s situation specifically ... I think KB should be a place where true experts offer forthright criticism and advice. I don't think anyone on the staff, from the most senior to a newbie like me, envisions the forum as restricted to a cheering section. But content does not supersede tone. Even the toughest critiques have to be presented appropriately.

I recognize this can be a fine line to walk, but many walk it just fine -- as you always do, Annie. I also recognize that it must be frustrating to be an expert, to give advice, to see it not taken, and to wonder if it would've gotten through if you'd _just been harsher_. But I think, actually, that the onus falls on the writer to take critique on board, even when it's not conveyed like a 2x4 to the head. Sometimes people are going to do what they're going to do, and greatly intensifying one's critique in an effort to change their mind isn't going to have a positive effect. It just leads to that "Lord of the Flies" atmosphere that bothers folks like Anarchist and Boyd. The way to balance the needs of those who want the board to be _pleasant _and those who want the board to be _useful _(and those who want the board to be _both_) is to make sure providing good content doesn't give someone a pass on tone.

Again, I'm not talking about you specifically, R.T. This is an issue that's been raised in the past -- the question of whether KB does a disservice to authors by soft-pedaling the harsh truths of indie publishing. It seemed worth responding to along those lines.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Years ago, I paid for a well-known author to mentor my writing.

He lives fairly close to me, and he spends his days at the same cafe close to his home, so we met there several times. He would have read my material and would have written out comments.

One of the first meetings we had, he'd written a couple of comments that gave me a pretty clear idea of what to do and how sections of my work failed.

We had a great time discussing the hows and whys of storytelling. It was not until I sat in the car on the way home that I realised that he'd just told me that my chapter sucked big balls.

The human brain is funny. As soon as you start using emotion words, like "great", "boring" or less polite variants, it's like the human mind can see only those, and engages the corresponding emotion. "Great" means I don't need to change anything, and "boring" means: the person who said this is rude.

Every. Single. Time.

The trick is to tell someone that you think their writing sucks without actually telling them that their writing--uhm--sucks.

It's about words, and writing fiction is about words. It's an awesome exercise for the writer of critique, because it's really hard.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2017)

Annie B said:


> If the book isn't good, the price won't matter. I think that's why quality isn't talked about that much in this thread. For one, none of us could see the book itself until it was published. For another, quality is a tough thing to talk about because craft after a certain level gets pretty subjective.
> 
> However, hitting that basic level of craft and avoiding a lot of newbie/first time novelist mistakes is important. That's why I would never advise someone to publish their first book unless they had a lot of developmental editing or they were one of those people who had come sideways at writing fiction (from another kind of writing) and had some level of craft mastery before they wrote a novel.
> 
> ...


Yup!


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> It's about words, and writing fiction is about words. It's an awesome exercise for the writer of critique, because it's really hard.


You're so right. In the most general sense, writing's goal is to produce the desired response in the reader. I think that's the case whether you're writing fiction, a grant proposal, ad copy, a scientific article ... whatever. The struggle for quality = the struggle to make your writing affect the reader the way you want it to, not in some other way you didn't intend. That's especially tough to do with critique.


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

Maybe I'm slow, or maybe you guys are speaking Anerican, but what is a 4x2 to the head?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Starbright said:


> Maybe I'm slow, or maybe you guys are speaking Anerican, but what is a 4x2 to the head?


A wood product commonly used in building and metaphors.


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## Not any more (Mar 19, 2012)

One of the problems with critiques is that there's always an element of subjectivity. If someone isn't willing to accept the criticism, there really isn't anything you can do. We're all guilty of being rather dense at times. Where things often run off the rails is when people feel a need to be right, and to convince everyone else that they're right. When discussing subjective issues, which might have shades of gray, the need to be right will generate conflict, not helpful discussion and criticism.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Also for the OP, remember that authors can sometimes be a little more critical than readers. If you've got a good story, little things like editing that we point out really aren't that big of a deal. Readers want to have fun and be swept away in their book, so (most of the time) they will forgive minor issues. 

I personally found that sample of your book interesting and wanted to read more. But... There's no way I will  pay $9.99 for it


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

I saw a critique offered about the OP's writing that he didn't ask for.

I saw the OP being lectured about how to start a novel while he did not ask for it. He did not say "I'm not selling, can you tell me why?"

I saw people go in saying "you won't sell that much because of all these things that are wrong with your book". They were fairly sensible things, but the OP still hadn't asked for it and the advice was offered in a "this is dogma and therefore I'm right" kind of way. We know that every day there are people who defy conventions and break out. That probably won't happen because, hey, long odds, and I'm sure the OP knows this but wants to try anyway. Good on him.

But I saw people trying to take a figurative sledgehammer to the OP's figurative head just so that he "would understand". IMO that's kinda pointless. In the first place, if someone doesn't want to hear it and hasn't asked for it, it's a waste of breath. In the second place "because someone says so" is the worst ever reason to say or believe things. This is how sheeple are formed. In the third place, he will find out and learn at his own pace. Credit the OP with some smarts. In the fourth place: it's not about you being right or wrong, or about you trying to bludger someone into believing your are right, because that doesn't work.

As soon as you make someone angry, annoyed or suspicious, they won't listen to you, pretty much ever, anymore.

ETA: and mwahahaha that must be the first time anyone ever accuses me of [kitten]footing. Seriously?

ETA2: that got bleeped out! What the eff, KB? LOL


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Patty Jansen said:


> I saw a critique offered about the OP's writing that he didn't ask for.
> 
> I saw the OP being lectured about how to start a novel while he did not ask for it. He did not say "I'm not selling, can you tell me why?"
> 
> ...


I agree Patty. I've had bad days myself before where I just kept flogging a thread with long short story length posts and wouldn't stop. I finally mastered the ability to just walk away and let someone else have the last word even IF I still did not agree with them. I was worried about the OP with all of this, but I did PM him and he's in good spirits.

I am still stunned how many of my colleagues treated a brand new debut author. Even if he is wrong in your playbook of how to publish, he's NEW. If there was ever a time we all made mistakes and learned from them (which for the record I DO NOT think the OP made a mistake, I think he's doing very well and needs to just keep publishing and go after the customers he wants), what better time to make than when you're NEW?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, I have to go to bed. Think I'd best lock this so it doesn't go further downhill while we western hemisphere, non-night-owl moderators are asleep. Maybe Ann and Betsy can make something positive of it come morning.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Good call, Becca, from what I can see.

I'm jet lagged and my schedule is screwed up after spending most of yesterday traveling.  I've been mostly away from the forum for the last few weeks traveling and dealing with an ill husband away from home, so I'm catching up.

Y'all behave while we review and discuss.  Lots of other threads.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks...

I'm going to reopen the thread, as RT posted in good faith, has accepted comments with grace and there was quite a good discussion going of the pros and cons of his strategy that we think is instructive to new folk starting out.

The conversation that got personal and derailed the thread has been removed.  That conversation will not be allowed to continue.  If you have any questions about the deleted conversation, please PM me rather than post in the thread so as to not derail the thread again.  We're still reviewing the thread; additional edits may be made.

Also, a reminder that our forum culture is that critiques of member's works are not made unless asked for.  If you are not sure if the member is asking for critique or not, it's perfectly OK to ask.    

Strong opinions are fine; but they must be expressed with courtesy and respect.  We appreciate the honest, courteous feedback that has been provided in this thread--it's one of the strengths of our forum.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

I'd be curious to hear the OP's plans for marketing and positioning the book going forward.


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## ConnieBW (Feb 23, 2017)

For what it's worth, OP, I wish you the best of luck. 

I can't offer any advice, but despite the controversial aspects of this thread, there has been a lot of useful information in it for newbies like myself.


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## Lysandra_Lorde (Mar 6, 2016)

Here's something I'm noticing that I feel you should have done... did you not give out any advanced reader copies? There aren't any reviews up on Amazon yet. I don't even feel like reviews are super important for sales, but they do help. A good in depth review 3 - 5 stars could sway customers into checking your book out.


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## Salvador Mercer (Jan 1, 2015)

I've been lurking on this particular thread and wanted to post a comment on this launch.

As indies I feel that any and all data we can examine on this business should be welcome.  As individuals we can't always write a hundred books and launch them a hundred different ways to see what works best (well, except Amanda maybe  ) so collectively I welcome the sharing of all launches, promotions, marketing, etc.

I also am grateful for the WC where I was able to learn a lot in a very short amount of time by those who started before me (for me personally in my genre it was Pauline Ross and Sever Bunny) so I appreciate having this place as a resource.

I too am interested in seeing if the OP pivots or makes any changes in the first 30 days of launch or will the launch continue as is?

So happy the cattle prod has been returned to its holster.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Salvador Mercer said:


> So happy the cattle prod has been returned to its holster.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

So, I've been thinking about this book and its release.

Based on its current sales rank, it's selling about 3 - 6 copies a month. One or two every ten days or so. I base this on a book of mine that is is selling that amount and is close in terms of rank.

If that's the case, that means it would sell approximately 36 to 72 a year, and gross $250 - $500 at the $9.99 price point.

To make $100,000 a year on sales of this one book on Amazon, it would have to sell 39 copies _a day_ and rank about 4800 in the Kindle store, if it is not in Kindle Unlimited. Less if it was selling on the other retailers.

So, if the author has that as a goal, something has to change.

The main elements of a book that affect its sales are:

1. The book itself -- is it a compelling read, a page-turner that has viral potential to its target readers? If a book doesn't have this, it has nothing. 
2. The cover -- does it accurately convey the genre and category? Does it compete with the bestselling books in its genre and category? Does it convert in other words?
3. The blurb -- is it hooky? Is it competitive with others in its genre and category? Does it convert a casual browser to a customer?
4. The keywords/categories -- do they put the book in the appropriate slot in the Kindle store so that the proper potential readers can find it?
5. The preview -- is it hooky, compelling, page-turning, with memorable opening? Is it well-edited? 
6. Pre-release promotion -- is there any? Does the appropriate audience see it where they are? Say, on Facebook? Reddit? Twitter?

People have to see a book for it to sell. People have to like what they see -- enough to click purchase. Once they start reading, they have to like it enough to finish and tell someone else about it because it was so good. That's how a book goes viral and sells six figures in a year.

Take care of those 6 things and you are in a good position to succeed. Number one is the most important of course, but a great book that is not visible will not sell. It needs the other 5 things to help make sure it's visible.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Good post, Sela.

I think what most of us were trying to impart was that trying to be the one out of a thousand/ten thousand who might hit it out of the part with a first book wasn't reasonable. There are dreams, and there is reality. There's nothing wrong with dreaming big, but reality has a way of slapping us in the face. Newbies make mistakes -- heck, all of us can, have and will -- but there are some mistakes that don't have to be made.

Still, I'm done with this thread. I hope the OP ends up satisfied with his plan, whatever happens.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

IreneP said:


> If you are an editor who has a flat per-word price, and then you get something that needs a lot more work than you're used to doing (from a new author, for example) - at what point do you just focus on the biggest issues? I mean, yes, I would consider at least getting the first chapter to a high sheen to be critical for hooking in readers, especially for a thriller.


I usually read through to the end of a thread before commenting, but I want to chime in here in case I forget; my apologies if this has already been addressed elsewhere or moved on from.

Do many editors have a flat per-word rate? I haven't ever paid much attention to what others charge, but I have a range, and base my rate on the quality of the sample. (And I've learned to ask for an extra 30-40 pages beyond the sample submission, as sometimes the sample is very clean but the rest of the MS is a tangled mess.) I offer a 'proofreading' level and a 'full edit' level, but I'm strongly considering getting rid of the proofreading for all but a few clients. It's nearly impossible for me to 'just focus on the biggest issues.'

If the snippet from a previous poster - including the phrase "we were thirty-years-old," IIRC - was a direct quote (I glanced at the Look Inside but didn't see it, myself), I'd have to agree with This_Way_Down: New editor. _Immediately._ I feel absolutely *sick* to think someone charged him $2K and didn't catch something so obvious. Based on the OP's posts here, he seems to have a very strong grasp of the mechanics of English and is a clear communicator, so it seems unlikely the editor had to 'focus on the biggest issues.' Editors like that make us all look bad. )c:

EDIT: I knew I shoulda read all the way through. Dangit. 
Sorry if I gave the impression of trying to jump-start an already-dead branch of the conversation.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Annie B said:


> This book has thousands invested into it already and the author stated that he needs to earn 100,000 in the first year. So in the case of this first book, there are stakes that most first time publishing authors don't have.
> 
> I don't think anyone has been unfair. If anything, I think we're being a little too gentle to someone who stands to lose thousands of dollars by making mistakes that could be avoided, but that's the Kboards way. To the OP, I would say listen to the people who have done what you want to do, the people who make six figures a year.


Although I cringed in sympathy for the OP at some of the responses, I think they're also important for OTHER new or would-be authors to see. Everyone wants to believe in the success story (including me!) but not everyone can afford to chase that dream. I've had to warn several of my clients away from "author services" promising to provide bestseller status for the low low cost of only $15,000 - "sure, it's a lot of money now, but just think about how paltry that amount will seem when you're lounging on the Riviera, telling Oprah you might call her back tomorrow if nothing better comes up!" (Slight exaggeration, but only slight.)

For some people, there seems to be an assumption of "If I put enough money into it, it HAS to work." If an author has the resources to go all-in and dump a ton of money on a book and isn't going to be left destitute if it never hits, great! But the advice and insight and reiterations of "It is very unlikely to work that way" might help other authors avoid some costly and painful first-hand learning experiences.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

SerenityEditing said:


> If the snippet from a previous poster - including the phrase "we were thirty-years-old," IIRC - was a direct quote (I glanced at the Look Inside but didn't see it, myself), I'd have to agree with This_Way_Down: New editor. _Immediately._ I feel absolutely *sick* to think someone charged him $2K and didn't catch something so obvious. Based on the OP's posts here, he seems to have a very strong grasp of the mechanics of English and is a clear communicator, so it seems unlikely the editor had to 'focus on the biggest issues.' Editors like that make us all look bad. )c:


If the editor is primarily a developmental editor, then this would have been out of their purview. It's hard to make a blanket statement. That said, the issues (IMHO of course) in the sample sort of run the gamut from silly little stuff like those dashes to big picture stuff with the story setup. The proofread is cleaner than a lot of self-pub, self-edit stuff where you can see the obvious word-blind problems with missing words or mistypes that don't get caught by spellcheck. But it's not quite clean enough to look like a pro-level copy editor either...



> Although I cringed in sympathy for the OP at some of the responses, I think they're also important for OTHER new or would-be authors to see.


There're plenty of threads for that. At times it's really hard to bite one's tongue ("GRR. SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!") but some people just want to share their experience without the eviscerating critique of their choices. I sort of like this forum's rule that critique must be invited.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2017)

J. Tanner said:


> If the editor is primarily a developmental editor, then this would have been out of their purview. It's hard to make a blanket statement. That said, the issues (IMHO of course) in the sample sort of run the gamut from silly little stuff like those dashes to big picture stuff with the story setup. The proofread is cleaner than a lot of self-pub, self-edit stuff where you can see the obvious word-blind problems with missing words or mistypes that don't get caught by spellcheck. But it's not quite clean enough to look like a pro-level copy editor either...
> 
> There're plenty of threads for that. At times it's really hard to bite one's tongue ("GRR. SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!") but some people just want to share their experience without the eviscerating critique of their choices. I sort of like this forum's rule that critique must be invited.


Then wouldn't it mean that the developmental editor read it and chose to say nothing? And if the editor saw it and couldn't copy edit or didn't at minimum, recognize that it needed further editing, then I that leaves us in the same place. The editor was either negligent or incompetent. 
Personally, I think a set of 5 beta testers are about as good as a developmental editor - with a few exceptions. And I can't say enough about my proof reader. She's not cheap, but since I started using her, my books are squeaky clean.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Glad the thread was re-opened; thanks Mods!

*Editing:* Just a quick update (extremely busy few days; will be hectic until next Monday is finished). I've held off the marketing push until I polish up the manuscript with the new proofreader (this thread was extremely helpful in vetting out an important issue like that). That should take a couple of weeks (and I realize the clock is ticking on the first thirty days), but once it's done, I'll also be ready to set up the paperback release with CreateSpace, and that'll be the perfect time to execute the marketing plan.

*Advertising:* Something that was really interesting (because I don't see Twitter paid advertising mentioned much), but I did tweet about the book on launch day, and although I didn't receive that many impressions (because I have so few followers), the clickthrough rate to the Amazon link was excellent (~20%). In my other writing endeavour (writing MMA articles), there are tweets I've made that have gotten thousands of impressions, but the clickthrough rate to the article is usually less than 5%. My guess is that the cover, which is the standout part of the tweet, was probably responsible for the clickthroughs (could possibly be the title as well). It's encouraged me enough to give Twitter paid advertising a go once the editing has been ironed out.

*Sales:* Next to nil at the moment (Day 1: three sales, Day 2: one sale, Day 3: zero sales), but probably a blessing in disguise since I'd really like to get the manuscript perfected before receiving any kind of significant exposure / feedback.

*Pricing:* I'm sticking with $9.99 to continue with the experiment (and mine the all-important data that comes with it), but I've gotten some excellent advice via this thread and PMs (and thank you to those who've taken the time!) on pricing strategies to build a fan base and increase visibility, which I'll likely use on the next project if this investigation shows that there's no advantage whatsoever of having the $9.99 price point.

What an interesting experiment this is, LOL.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

R. T. Leone said:


> Glad the thread was re-opened; thanks Mods!
> 
> *Editing:* Just a quick update (extremely busy few days; will be hectic until next Monday is finished). I've held off the marketing push until I polish up the manuscript with the new proofreader (this thread was extremely helpful in vetting out an important issue like that). That should take a couple of weeks (and I realize the clock is ticking on the first thirty days), but once it's done, I'll also be ready to set up the paperback release with CreateSpace, and that'll be the perfect time to execute the marketing plan.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Keep on.


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## IreneP (Jun 19, 2012)

SerenityEditing said:


> Do many editors have a flat per-word rate?


Hahahaha. Most of the ones I know learned better quickly. And yes, a lot of them have a range if they work per-word and not per-hour. But I guess my point was, we don't really know what went down. Was the 2K for multiple rounds of edits? Just developmental? Just copy? What?

The OP admits he did some self-editing because he wanted to get the book out and there were some issues with whatever the editor sent back. It sounds to me like he might have needed a few more passes to iron out the kinks.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Good post, Sela.
> 
> I think what most of us were trying to impart was that trying to be the one out of a thousand/ten thousand who might hit it out of the part with a first book wasn't reasonable. There are dreams, and there is reality. There's nothing wrong with dreaming big, but reality has a way of slapping us in the face. Newbies make mistakes -- heck, all of us can, have and will -- but there are some mistakes that don't have to be made.
> 
> Still, I'm done with this thread. I hope the OP ends up satisfied with his plan, whatever happens.


That's why I keep posting the elements of a successful book. I hope that newbie authors who are approaching their first publishing venture will learn from the rest of us and not have to make the same mistakes we did. 

I made quite a few mistakes with my first series. It was only after I studied how to self publish, following the advice of people like David Gaughran in _Let's Get Digital_ and _Let's Get Visible_, and Sean Platt et al's _Write, Publish, Repeat_ that I tried to do it all right from conception to execution. It worked! My book did make $100K in its first year.

It's always possible to go against the grain and have organic success without being aware of what works, the market, etc. but it will be vanishingly rare. Better for most of us to try to do everything possible to help our books be successful based on other people's successes than to think we can re-create the wheel.

You can always try both approaches. Use a pen name and give it a whirl if you think you have a great idea that breaks all the rules and will succeed regardless. You can always try again, learning from those who have already had success when if you fail. 

ETA: But remember -- you only fail if you stop writing and publishing. Every time you try and fail, you can learn valuable information and have valuable experiences and do better next time.

I find that very hopeful.


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

I actually wanted to chime in on this thread. The OP was very brave to put himself out there. It can't be easy to announce to world your plan and then have it ripped apart. I hope that he learns enough on this thread to have a better launch next time. This is such a supportive community, so I hope that he sticks around. 

RT, you have big dreams. I hope that you realize them someday soon!


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## AlecHutson (Sep 26, 2016)

R. T. Leone said:


> Glad the thread was re-opened; thanks Mods!
> 
> *Editing:* Just a quick update (extremely busy few days; will be hectic until next Monday is finished). I've held off the marketing push until I polish up the manuscript with the new proofreader (this thread was extremely helpful in vetting out an important issue like that). That should take a couple of weeks (and I realize the clock is ticking on the first thirty days), but once it's done, I'll also be ready to set up the paperback release with CreateSpace, and that'll be the perfect time to execute the marketing plan.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to duck in (one of a huge number of lurkers following this thread, I'm sure) and wholeheartedly express my admiration for your attitude throughout this conversation. Everyone who has commented (at least that I've seen post cleanup) has done so with good intentions, I believe, even if sometimes their suggestions have been delivered a bit bluntly. With such a personal project like this, it would have been very easy to get defensive and angry with some responses, and you didn't. Really, thank you. I'm going to go over and pick myself up a copy of Invinciman after I finish this comment 

While I'm here I'll offer my own advice, though of course, as with most advice, it's based off of my own (limited) personal experiences. Once you get the manuscript looking good, consider dropping the price to 4.99 and enrolling it in Kindle Unlimited. Two sales at 4.99 are the equivalent of one sale at 9.99, and I think you'll get FAR more than a 2:1 ratio at that price point. Also, I found KU to be a fantastic way to bring readers to my debut book, given that I was a new author and hadn't launched with an elaborate strategy. As to your monetary goals, after my first 100 or so days that's the pace I'm on (though sales have slowed significantly this month for me), and KU is a massive part of that . . . though I benefited from having a very kind indie author give my book a huge boost with glowing reviews on just about every review site and his blog. So because of this, my experience is atypical - - but, to be fair, simply through word of mouth my book had been slowly building prior to that lucky break. The day before that blog post went up I had 48 sales and 20k page reads. But, first things first you need to get the book into reader's hands, in order for that word of mouth to start spreading, and KU and a lower price point can be effective tools to do this, I think.

Again, just my .02. Best of luck to you.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> Then wouldn't it mean that the developmental editor read it and chose to say nothing? And if the editor saw it and couldn't copy edit or didn't at minimum, recognize that it needed further editing, then I that leaves us in the same place. The editor was either negligent or incompetent.


No, it's not at all the same place, and not necessarily negligent. A developmental editor doesn't necessarily line edit, and absolutely wouldn't line edit if their comment was something like "Chapter 1 starting with the flashback is unnecessary--cut entirely." And then the author decides not to implement that advice. Or perhaps the editor said something like "it's unclear how old the protagonists are--it comes as a surprise in chapter 12. Show it earlier." And then the author takes that advice and adds in to sentence with the incorrect grammar and the editor never sees those changes.

I would agree the sample of this book indicates it probably needs a copy-edit, but I don't think that _necessarily_ reflects on the editor who worked on it. (Though it could. You'd need more info to make that judgement.)



> Personally, I think a set of 5 beta testers are about as good as a developmental editor - with a few exceptions. And I can't say enough about my proof reader. She's not cheap, but since I started using her, my books are squeaky clean.


You can't get too much pre-release feedback. That's about as much of a truism as exists in this field. Beyond that, everyone's situation is different. Getting five beta readers could be less viable, or offer worse results for some authors.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

R. T. Leone said:


> *Advertising:* Something that was really interesting (because I don't see Twitter paid advertising mentioned much), but I did tweet about the book on launch day, and although I didn't receive that many impressions (because I have so few followers), the clickthrough rate to the Amazon link was excellent (~20%). In my other writing endeavour (writing MMA articles), there are tweets I've made that have gotten thousands of impressions, but the clickthrough rate to the article is usually less than 5%. My guess is that the cover, which is the standout part of the tweet, was probably responsible for the clickthroughs (could possibly be the title as well). It's encouraged me enough to give Twitter paid advertising a go once the editing has been ironed out.


Twitter advertising isn't mentioned much because it's generally less effective than alternatives. YMMV of course, and with advertising, some portion of your budget should be for experimental stuff, but it's not likely the best starting point. If you're a Twitter advertising guru, by all means start there. For everyone else, Amazon or Facebook are probably better choices.

(My personal experience with Twitter is that they contacted me to try to get my business and when I gave them the numbers I was achieving elsewhere and asked if they could compete, they said they probably couldn't. I respect their honesty, but not enough to pay more for lesser results.)


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

J. Tanner said:


> Twitter advertising isn't mentioned much because it's generally less effective than alternatives. YMMV of course, and with advertising, some portion of your budget should be for experimental stuff, but it's not likely the best starting point. If you're a Twitter advertising guru, by all means start there. For everyone else, Amazon or Facebook are probably better choices.
> 
> (My personal experience with Twitter is that they contacted me to try to get my business and when I gave them the numbers I was achieving elsewhere and asked if they could compete, they said they probably couldn't. I respect their honesty, but not enough to pay more for lesser results.)


A year or so ago, I had an ad on Facebook, giving away some free books for new subscribers and I was getting about five per day. Most of them have stuck. I had that same ad on Twitter, it is still there, and after over a year it has produced one new subscriber.

Definitely Facebook or Amazon ads, but they need to be properly targeted and carefully watched.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

R. T. Leone said:


> What an interesting experiment this is, LOL.


Yes it is! It's always fascinating when someone comes along and says: here's what I'm going to try, and we get to follow along in real time. It's especially so when it's a first-time publisher. Thanks for being so open. I hope you'll continue to keep us posted with your progress.

As others have said, kudos too for taking all the somewhat forthright opinion from the board hive-mind in such good spirit. Very nice to see - well done.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

J. Tanner said:


> ...not necessarily negligent. A developmental editor doesn't necessarily line edit, and absolutely wouldn't line edit if their comment was something like "Chapter 1 starting with the flashback is unnecessary--cut entirely." And then the author decides not to implement that advice. Or perhaps the editor said something like "it's unclear how old the protagonists are--it comes as a surprise in chapter 12. Show it earlier." And then the author takes that advice and adds in to sentence with the incorrect grammar and the editor never sees those changes.
> 
> I would agree the sample of this book indicates it probably needs a copy-edit, but I don't think that _necessarily_ reflects on the editor who worked on it. (Though it could. You'd need more info to make that judgement.)


Excellent points, and you're quite right. I'm embarrassed to have made the error I most fear/dread others making: Judging the editor by the final result. I've been fortunate that most of my recent clients have kept the majority of my changes/suggestions, and had let it slip to the back of my mind that some clients don't. Thanks for the reminder, and my apologies to the original editor(s) for the assumption.

I'd like to add my voice to those praising the OP for his courage and grace under pressure. I think I'd rather take a bath in a tub full of cockroaches than do anything like what you've done here - your equanimity in the face of criticism is worth aspiring to. Count me among those who are watching with interest and hoping you succeed.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

J. Tanner said:


> No, it's not at all the same place, and not necessarily negligent. A developmental editor doesn't necessarily line edit, and absolutely wouldn't line edit if their comment was something like "Chapter 1 starting with the flashback is unnecessary--cut entirely." And then the author decides not to implement that advice. Or perhaps the editor said something like "it's unclear how old the protagonists are--it comes as a surprise in chapter 12. Show it earlier." And then the author takes that advice and adds in to sentence with the incorrect grammar and the editor never sees those changes.
> 
> I would agree the sample of this book indicates it probably needs a copy-edit, but I don't think that _necessarily_ reflects on the editor who worked on it. (Though it could. You'd need more info to make that judgement.)
> 
> You can't get too much pre-release feedback. That's about as much of a truism as exists in this field. Beyond that, everyone's situation is different. Getting five beta readers could be less viable, or offer worse results for some authors.


I'm sorry. But if a dev. editor didn't read that and say "you need copy editing", it's negligence. If the dev. did point this out and was ignored, that's different. But I also mentioned that earlier. 
I've been offered dev. editing and refused. But I have no problem with story structure and character development as it pertain to my genre. I might consider it if I decided to switch - at least until I got a feel for it. Actually, my agent wants to work on one for me she's sending out to market. I'm not being charged, of course. But as it's a bit outside the norm for me, and she's really liking the story, she wants to be a little more hands on before the offers the manuscript. 
Beta testing is much less expensive and, in my opinion, a more telling way to gauge a book's quality. You look for consensus rather than a singular opinion. If 3 of 5 people say Betty is a flat character, you probably need to address it. If only 1 says so, maybe not. And if there is a problem with editing, you'll hear it right quick - that is assuming you are hiring good readers.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Let's just assume that some people enter a business without bothering to research anything. Here's some advice: If you have no experience and training as a fiction author, pay for a GOOD development editor to assess your work. After you've made the changes, pay a copy editor to fix your grammar/redundancy/plot inconsistencies. After you fix those items, pay a proofer to make sure you didn't introduce new errors into your work. 

Yes, it takes a while. Yes, it costs money. Tell me another business where you can invest nothing and make money? The entry point for fiction writing is one of the lowest cost investments a business person can make, but you should find the money to make it correctly.

A bad launch can and will prejudice some readers against you forever. That's just how human beings roll.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

I do think this is brilliant. Do I think you're going to reach $100K off this book alone? Alas, no. But best of luck trying! On the other hand, I'd observe that even with the four sales you've reported thus far, (and I assume there at least a couple more in the bag now given your current ranking) with a $9.99 price tag you must have earned more in a week than I managed in my first couple of months with my cautious $0.99 short story collection.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Let's just assume that some people enter a business without bothering to research anything. Here's some advice: If you have no experience and training as a fiction author, pay for a GOOD development editor to assess your work. After you've made the changes, pay a copy editor to fix your grammar/redundancy/plot inconsistencies. After you fix those items, pay a proofer to make sure you didn't introduce new errors into your work.
> 
> Yes, it takes a while. Yes, it costs money. Tell me another business where you can invest nothing and make money? The entry point for fiction writing is one of the lowest cost investments a business person can make, but you should find the money to make it correctly.
> 
> A bad launch can and will prejudice some readers against you forever. That's just how human beings roll.


So let me get this straight. You are saying that if I want a return on an investment, I actually have to MAKE an investment?


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

One really small, minor, non-judgemental piece of advice ... 

When pricing internationally, enter those prices manually. Invinciman is currently £8.21 in the .co.uk store so presumably it's Amazon's converter that's been used. 

It is generally advised across the industry to make it end with .99 -- I don't know the psychology behind it, but maybe £7.99 looks more inviting? Check out the CA & AUD stores too as they're a fairly big market for English language books and the same advice is given on those. 

Still watching this with interes. Still rooting for some success with it. 

(And I thought I was brave planning a new pen name release at $4.99!!! Maybe I'll even push it to $5.99 upon release ... but probably not)


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

This_Way_Down said:


> So let me get this straight. You are saying that if I want a return on an investment, I actually have to MAKE an investment?


The OP did make an investment, quite a large one. His mistake was in investing in the wrong things. An editor who didn't do the job he was hoping for, whether that was because he was the wrong sort of editor, we don't know. We do know he was the only editor he invested in. He invested in a corporation because with the amount he was going to make, he obviously needed a tax shelter of some kind. He might have invested in a website as well, I've forgotten now.

What he should have invested in were the right editors, beta readers and proof readers and some advertising. He should perhaps also have invested in some proper research to discover what other new authors in his genre were launching at. Just taking someone's word that they sell at $9.99 isn't really research, is it? Charging that amount and actually selling at that amount are two different things.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

ADDavies said:


> It is generally advised across the industry to make it end with .99 -- I don't know the psychology behind it, but maybe £7.99 looks more inviting?


How do people fell about .49 price points? I know on some of the international prices when I set them for mine, .49 was closer than .99, so I went with that.



Doglover said:


> Charging that amount and actually selling at that amount are two different things.


I notice this a lot when I'm browsing ebay. That's why when I'm trying to figure out how much to sell something for there (or if it's selling at all), I go to advanced search and look for completed listings. Just because someone has listed that beanie baby that they think is rare and valuable at $1,000 doesn't mean anything if there was an identical one up for sale for $50 recently and no one bought it. OTOH, sometimes you can be surprised to find some things actually selling for much more than you'd expect, if you catch them at the right time (I'm thinking about how Zelda amiibos are going crazy right now). This is harder to tell with ebooks, but the rankings are useful for at least guessing at how many are being sold at a certain price (and then, of course, there's the fact that unlike items on ebay, you're not selling the exact same item as someone else, so there's that to consider as well).


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Doglover said:


> The OP did make an investment, quite a large one. His mistake was in investing in the wrong things. An editor who didn't do the job he was hoping for, whether that was because he was the wrong sort of editor, we don't know. We do know he was the only editor he invested in. He invested in a corporation because with the amount he was going to make, he obviously needed a tax shelter of some kind. He might have invested in a website as well, I've forgotten now.
> 
> What he should have invested in were the right editors, beta readers and proof readers and some advertising. He should perhaps also have invested in some proper research to discover what other new authors in his genre were launching at. Just taking someone's word that they sell at $9.99 isn't really research, is it? Charging that amount and actually selling at that amount are two different things.


I never said he/she didn't. It was a comment meant for Jana. But perhaps I was cryptic....


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Doglover said:


> The OP did make an investment, quite a large one. His mistake was in investing in the wrong things.


I wasn't speaking to the OP but to the discussion over what editors do/don't do and although it's not part of this discussion, I have seen here time and time and time again "I don't have the money for ___" and I believe people need to find the money if they want to be taken seriously. Sell something on ebay. Trade something with a professional for services. Plenty of people started out broke but managed to get professional services.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

ADDavies said:


> When pricing internationally, enter those prices manually. Invinciman is currently £8.21 in the .co.uk store so presumably it's Amazon's converter that's been used.


Speaking as a Brit, I'm so used to odd price amounts now that I do a double-take if I see one that does actually end with a 99.  Frankly, as a reader, an £8.21 price wouldn't tempt me any more or less than one at £7.99 or £8.99. My limit is about £4.99.

As an author, I dislike the idea of charging my overseas customers even a penny more than my US customers, so I'd never round a price up just to get a nice number. And I'd never round down, because then the US peeps pay more. I like that everyone pays the same (taxes and currency exchange permitting).


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I wasn't speaking to the OP but to the discussion over what editors do/don't do and although it's not part of this discussion, I have seen here time and time and time again "I don't have the money for ___" and I believe people need to find the money if they want to be taken seriously. Sell something on ebay. Trade something with a professional for services. Plenty of people started out broke but managed to get professional services.


I will never understand why so many people think that you can just write a book and with no investment, publish successfully. I didn't have money when I started. But I saved a little at a time until I had enough for what I needed. It took months and I had to do without things I enjoy for a while. But I knew that it was the only way I could have a chance at being taken seriously. I paid for art, editing, proof reading, etc. from the nickles and dimes I saved. Instead out going out, I stayed home. I basically sacrificed everything I didn't absolutely need in favor of my book. I wanted it to be as good as anything out there. And I knew I could not do this on my own. In the end it was worth it.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

The reason people release books without editing is because _they can_.

Amazon only points out obvious spelling errors in its check of your book. If you fix those -- or ignore them -- you can publish a totally unedited manuscript.

And guess what? It can sell!

I know authors who have published a self-edited manuscript and made money. Some of it good money. It all depends on their degree of self-editing skill and attention to detail.

HOWEVER I would always advise a new writer who has not been through an extended apprentice writer stage (joined writing groups, had work critiqued, taken courses in editing and writing, written fiction for years without being published, had beta readers go through your work, etc.) to find beta readers and a copy editor at minimum. That's the kind of attention to business that suggests you might be successful.

Having a well-edited manuscript will not make you a success. It will make your manuscript better. IMO, once you get to the big times, you should definitely get your work copy edited and proofread. I have my books self-edited, then copy edited and then proof read and there are still typos that slip through.


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## doolittle03 (Feb 13, 2015)

Glad the thread reopened! I'm here for the data. No pass/fail mindset for me. It's not my book, it's not my money and I appreciate your willingness to share your bold plan. good luck!


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

This_Way_Down said:


> I will never understand why so many people think that you can just write a book and with no investment, publish successfully.


Their expectations are based on optimism rather than business sense.

I was discussing this with a friend recently. He sells high-priced courses to folks who want to build a business. He lamented the percentage of folks looking for "push-button" riches. They're not interested in building solid businesses.

Instead, they want a by-the-numbers system that will generate immediate cash. I think a lot of indies fall into that trap. They figure "Write, Publish, Repeat" and neglect the business end of things.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Anarchist said:


> Instead, they want a by-the-numbers system that will generate immediate cash. I think a lot of indies fall into that trap. They figure "Write, Publish, Repeat" and neglect the business end of things.


Write, publish, repeat at least shows work ethic. They'll need to eventually develop those business skills too, of course.

I think they've typically got a better shot that someone who writes one novel and thinks they can ninja some riches out of it. That's a crapshoot even for experts.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

J. Tanner said:


> Write, publish, repeat at least shows work ethic. They'll need to eventually develop those business skills too, of course.


That's true. Execution is vital. It's what separates the folks who ship from the folks who dream of shipping (e.g. "_I'm going to write a book someday._")

That said, execution alone gets you to Double-A. Execution plus packaging (cover, blurb, description, etc.) gets you to Triple-AAA.

Execution, packaging, and business acumen (the ability to create a sound marketing strategy, build a platform, and reach a defined target audience) gets you to the Majors.



J. Tanner said:


> ....they can ninja some riches out of it.


That made me laugh.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> That's true. Execution is vital. It's what separates the folks who ship from the folks who dream of shipping (e.g. "_I'm going to write a book someday._")
> 
> That said, execution alone gets you to Double-A. Execution plus packaging (cover, blurb, description, etc.) gets you to Triple-AAA.
> 
> ...


I think why it bothers me, as well as other indies who have done well with their careers, it how hard we've fought for indie respect. For a long time we were looked down upon as lesser - in every conceivable way. But that was then. Now we're producing books that compete directly with the Big 5 in both quality and content. We're winning awards and being featured in magazines and at conventions. None of this was easy. So when I see someone with a "it's good enough" attitude because it indie - and that's what unedited and so-called self-edited books say - I get irritated. They're the reason for that lingering sentiment. They're the reason I have to admit that people are right when they say certain negative things about indie.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

This_Way_Down said:


> I think why it bothers me, as well as other indies who have done well with their careers, it how hard we've fought for indie respect. For a long time we were looked down upon as lesser - in every conceivable way. But that was then. Now we're producing books that compete directly with the Big 5 in both quality and content. We're winning awards and being featured in magazines and at conventions. None of this was easy. So when I see someone with a "it's good enough" attitude because it indie - and that's what unedited and so-called self-edited books say - I get irritated. They're the reason for that lingering sentiment. They're the reason I have to admit that people are right when they say certain negative things about indie.


When you have a totally free platform for publishing and anyone can do it, uploading any manuscript, there will always be several camps of indies -- those who stumble into it and fail out of the gate, those who stumble into it and figure out how to do it more professionally, and those who do it professionally from the get-go.

The first group publish an unedited book with a self-made cover and deathly blurb. We'd like to believe that if they have written a great book, it will find its audience in spite of its flaws in presentation, but that is highly unlikely. In publishing, there is no guarantee. Even if their book had potential as in a great story in the rough, their lack of business sense will hinder their ability to sell. They may not sell a book ever and give up. How many of the millions of self-published books fall into this category? Most of them are never seen nor heard from again.

The second group may publish an unedited book with a self-made cover and deathly blurb. Their book may not sell, or may sell just enough to get the juices flowing. They may start looking around and wondering how to make money, sell more books, gain an audience. They may start to read about publishing, try to spiff up their books with a pro edit, a pro cover and work hard at improving their product page. They may write more books and actually become successful and put it all together and write a best selling book. They will then sell more books, and then, more after that when they figure out more about storytelling as well as business.

The second group are vanishingly few compared to the first, and their books may become more visible over time as they improve their game.

The third are pros out of the gate, figure it out before they publish. They may or may not hit the big times, depending on whether they have a book that has a big audience but their business sense will mean that their book can shine immediately, if they have a gem. They don't get in their own way, in other words. They've done everything they can to set themselves and their book(s) up for success. That's where we should all want to be, but we all come to this from our own separate paths.

I was somewhere between the second camp and third camp when I first published, since I bought a pro non-genre appropriate cover and had my book proofread, but that was it. How much better might I have done if I had taken the time to have a thorough edit, beta read by readers in my target audience so I knew if I had hit the tropes, and if I did more research on genre-appropriate covers? I probably would have done much better with that first series.

However, I did learn on the job, and sometimes, that's good enough.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2017)

sela said:


> When you have a totally free platform for publishing and anyone can do it, uploading any manuscript, there will always be several camps of indies -- those who stumble into it and fail out of the gate, those who stumble into it and figure out how to do it more professionally, and those who do it professionally from the get-go.
> 
> The first group publish an unedited book with a self-made cover and deathly blurb. We'd like to believe that if they have written a great book, it will find its audience in spite of its flaws in presentation, but that is highly unlikely. In publishing, there is no guarantee. Even if their book had potential as in a great story in the rough, their lack of business sense will hinder their ability to sell. They may not sell a book ever and give up. How many of the millions of self-published books fall into this category? Most of them are never seen nor heard from again.
> 
> ...


I think your assessment is pretty accurate. There is another sub-group - The trail blazers. Many of us had nothing to go on in 2010-2012. The resources simply did not exist. Finding a professional editor was extremely difficult for genre fiction. Many of the editors around today were still exclusively working with publishers. You couldn't so much as get them to return an email, let alone edit your books. Hell, just finding cover art was a challenge. We had to search various art sites or try to find someone willing to give it a go. There was no one to guide us, because we were the first. A lot of the methods people use now were invented during this time. We cobbled together the limited resources and did our best with what we had to work with. 
Many of trail blazers aren't around anymore. As popularity grew the demand increased. Some simply could keep up or burned out trying. Or they made bad choices that torpedoed their career. Those still around have largely moved on the become hybrids.


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## VayneLine (Mar 3, 2017)

I hope op reads this.  I like your boldness, and at first I was tempted to bring you back to earth a little simply based on the lack of realism of your goal (I'm new myself and if I can make a grand I'd feel successful) but then I see this thread where people are tearing you apart.  It reminds me of the metaphor of a pot of boiling crabs and how they grab each other to prevent anyone from escaping.  It was disgusting in a lot of ways. 

Also, when starting I know how hard hits can be, so keep your head up man, you tried (trying) something a lot of people never man up to do, so congrats on that.  Worst case scenario, remember its just people online.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

This_Way_Down said:


> I will never understand why so many people think that you can just write a book and with no investment, publish successfully.


I agree. I know money doesn't grow on trees, but my way of looking at it is I've spent untold hours writing this manuscript, years working on my craft. The last thing I want to do is trip the book at the finish line because I didn't want to fork out some cash for editing and covers etc.

And yeah, producing a professional book is expensive from one angle, but you can also sell it all over the world, and aside from marketing there are minimal overheads once the thing is produced. Compare that to opening a cafe where you might need $70k-$100k to even get started, you can only serve the people within a kilometre-or-so radius, you're in huge debt to the bank straight away, you've got to have employees, insurance, etc etc etc. The whole thing is a ticking time bomb of stress. And for marketing, you not only need to get the word out, but you need to convince customers to go to your cafe *instead* of another cafe. With books, it can often be the opposite. As in "hey, you liked that book? You'll like my book!"

By comparison, bringing a novel up to professional standards seems like an absolute walk in the park. The barrier to publishing an unedited first draft is obviously very low, but in the scheme of Business Land, the barrier to publishing a really awesome product is not actually that much higher.


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## Elizabeth Barone (May 6, 2013)

I've been following this thread for a while. R.T., I really admire your spirit and hope you have a successful career! Much of the advice given here has been very useful and, I hope, outshined the more negative comments. I've been hanging out to see how you do and learn what I can. I think we can all learn something here, no matter how long we've been at it.



This_Way_Down said:


> I think your assessment is pretty accurate. There is another sub-group - The trail blazers. Many of us had nothing to go on in 2010-2012. The resources simply did not exist. Finding a professional editor was extremely difficult for genre fiction. Many of the editors around today were still exclusively working with publishers. You couldn't so much as get them to return an email, let alone edit your books. Hell, just finding cover art was a challenge. We had to search various art sites or try to find someone willing to give it a go. There was no one to guide us, because we were the first. A lot of the methods people use now were invented during this time. We cobbled together the limited resources and did our best with what we had to work with.
> Many of trail blazers aren't around anymore. As popularity grew the demand increased. Some simply could keep up or burned out trying. Or they made bad choices that torpedoed their career. Those still around have largely moved on the become hybrids.


Yup. I started off in 2011 and it was exactly as you say. The designer I hired for my debut novel went AWOL and, when I couldn't find another designer, I did my own cover. I had a background in graphic design but had no clue how to design a book cover. I'm so glad those days are over! Now you can easily find editors and designers.

Not that I'd call myself a trailblazer. I've made a lot of mistakes (and I still make mistakes, which is why I don't make $100K yet &#128514. I think it's like Sela said on pg 12: You only fail if you stop. That gives me a lot of hope too.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Speaking of tripping at the finish line, I recently read an indie book in paperback with a great cover that drew me in, a fun concept, and so many glaring typos and obvious errors or simply poor word choices that I couldn't make it past 1/3 of the book. It was so disappointing. (Oddly, I also couldn't find the book in ebook, only in paperback, which also really made me wonder about how serious this author was about selling her book.)


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Shawna Canon said:


> (Oddly, I also couldn't find the book in ebook, only in paperback, which also really made me wonder about how serious this author was about selling her book.)


She may have unpublished it to fix all those typos. That would make the ebook disappear, but paperbacks never, ever disappear (just in case one turns up as a second-hand copy in the year 2084).


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

sela said:


> When you have a totally free platform for publishing and anyone can do it, uploading any manuscript, there will always be several camps of indies -- those who stumble into it and fail out of the gate, those who stumble into it and figure out how to do it more professionally, and those who do it professionally from the get-go.
> 
> The first group publish an unedited book with a self-made cover and deathly blurb. We'd like to believe that if they have written a great book, it will find its audience in spite of its flaws in presentation, but that is highly unlikely. In publishing, there is no guarantee. Even if their book had potential as in a great story in the rough, their lack of business sense will hinder their ability to sell. They may not sell a book ever and give up. How many of the millions of self-published books fall into this category? Most of them are never seen nor heard from again.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a really concise way to view approaching indie publishing. I think I'm firmly in the third group. Very self aware and doing tons of research to try and stack the deck for success. On the other hand I am aware I have some strikes against me, in that I'm launching something that might be rejected by the masses (short books and in a cross genre). But if it financially does not succeed, I think I have all the tools to know perhaps why and maybe make some adjustments before I will call this particular venture "unmarketable" and then move on to something else. Looking back at what I have learned over the last 4 months since finding kboards, I couldn't imagine just uploaded a book crafted in a vacuum and expecting anything other than crickets. There is a lot to understand and master to be successful.


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## Lady Vine (Nov 11, 2012)

Eye Will never pay four an editer, and ewe carnt make me! Eye dont knead won.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Lady Vine said:


> Eye Will never pay four an editer, and ewe carnt make me! Eye dont knead won.


10/10


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

VayneLine said:


> I hope op reads this. I like your boldness, and at first I was tempted to bring you back to earth a little simply based on the lack of realism of your goal (I'm new myself and if I can make a grand I'd feel successful) but then I see this thread where people are tearing you apart. It reminds me of the metaphor of a pot of boiling crabs and how they grab each other to prevent anyone from escaping. It was disgusting in a lot of ways.
> 
> Also, when starting I know how hard hits can be, so keep your head up man, you tried (trying) something a lot of people never man up to do, so congrats on that. Worst case scenario, remember its just people online.


This.

I'm with you, VayneLine. Good for you for standing up for the OP. And shame on the people who tore him apart.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

sela said:


> The third are pros out of the gate, figure it out before they publish&#8230;


I suppose I fit into the second group, but I actually made a conscious decision not to be in the third.

My first novel took me a long time to write (three years) so I did a lot of research into self-publishing while I was working on it. I read all the advice about proper covers and writing to genre and how critical it was to market well in your first 30 days of release, etc.

And I decided not to even try. I focused on writing the best novel I could and then figured I would gradually figure out the rest later, to the extent it even related to my long term goals.

I'm not trying to quit my day job, at least anytime soon, and I figured out pretty fast that the notion of writing three or four books a year to keep sales up on Amazon was beyond my talents and desire. I also realized I wasn't particularly interested in writing for the most popular genres (like Romance) so clearly just making money from writing wasn't my main goal. Even in the sci-fi genre, my novel doesn't squarely fit in (too much humor and satire), so I was skeptical about trying to do a full on assault to leap to the top of the Kindle sales charts out of the gate.

On the other hand, I'm too business minded to completely write off my creative impulses as a hobby. And since my day job involves consulting on new media for large entertainment corporations, I was kind of fascinate by the possibilities of self-publishing in terms of branding and promoting intellectual property.

That's why I've followed with interest R. T. Leone's perhaps quixotic plan that flies in the face of conventional (and probably correct) wisdom about how to launch Amazon best sellers. If it doesn't work to his expectations, and there seems to be good reason to think that it won't, he might want to consider some of what I'm thinking as a plan "B."

Like Leone, I don't see myself writing and trying to market more than one novel a year. And like him, my tastes run more toward super heroes and fantastical action, which don't necessarily play to the largest possible Kindle audience. Unlike him, I'm not expecting to sell a lot of ebooks.

My ultimate goal is to create intellectual property to sell to film studios. I work in that world and have a pretty good idea of how it works and what they are looking for. My first novel comes close to being a property that might get produced (lots of epic action sequences), but I probably made it a little too weird (it features a ninja Steve Jobs in an alternative reality universe), and it's longer than necessary (80,000 words). Rather than focus on tropes that sell ebooks in mass, my goals would be to have film friendly action, visuals that scream for CGI treatment, merchandizing possibilities and franchise possibilities (world building). Shorter novels are probably better (under 40,000 words), for short attention span producers. Having a series doesn't hurt, but probably doesn't help enough to justify the extra time (though the story has to feel like it could be a series or have sequels).

Successfully marketing these kinds of stories to producers will require at least some success in self-publishing, but it doesn't have to be overnight and it doesn't have to generate steady income. It can be along the lines of: it was a "1# superhero, sci-fi, action" seller on Amazon! (For one day six months ago.) Good reviews will help and I think audiobooks (again for lazy producers) will be a plus. Artwork, like covers, is important, but less for generating sales on Kindle than making the property look film ready.

With all that in mind, I'm hoping to slowly establish myself as a "brand" who writes a particular kind of film friendly story, and has at least some kind of following among readers. (Could be small and cult.) But that can also be built over time and several titles and I've focused more on trying to work that through my blog and social media where I have some independence and control rather than just buying ads on Amazon or Facebook. In that regard, I'd argue that getting a book out earlier is better in building social media than waiting a year until you have all your ducks in a row. (Though that might be just because I hate the pressure of trying to mount a perfect marketing launch.)

Assuming I manage to write one book a year (which I might not do) over ten years I might have ten film friendly properties. If one gets optioned, the others are more likely to be optioned, and if one gets produced they will all dramatically increase in value.

It absolutely is very much a long shot, but I figure (at least for me) it might be less of a long shot than making enough income steadily on Amazon to quit my day job. And it seems like fun to me, which is priority one. I'm writing what I want the way I want to.

So if R.T. doesn't succeed in making his $100,000 in the first year, he might want to consider a longer term strategy for the kind of stories he seems to enjoy: super hero stuff which might play better as film properties rather than ebooks. His boundless hype and optimism might fit in nicely with Hollywood. (It would certainly be recognized.)


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

PaulineMRoss said:


> She may have unpublished it to fix all those typos. That would make the ebook disappear, but paperbacks never, ever disappear (just in case one turns up as a second-hand copy in the year 2084).


I bought the paperback in person at a conference, and then had her sign it. So she at least thought the paperback was still worth selling. (I checked for a Kindle version before buying because I would have rather bought that, and only bought the paperback because it was the only version available and I was really curious to read it. I guess this teaches me to look at the first page more often before buying.)


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Mackay Bell said:


> Successfully marketing these kinds of stories to producers will require at least some success in self-publishing, but it doesn't have to be overnight and it doesn't have to generate steady income.


Sony Television optioned my bestselling series last year. They absolutely asked for sales numbers and they ask for updates every quarter. Not sure how other studios operate, but that is my experience.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Linda_B said:


> This.
> 
> I'm with you, VayneLine. Good for you for standing up for the OP. And shame on the people who tore him apart.


With rare exceptions, I didn't see tearing apart. I saw authors who are doing this gig very successfully, making the six (or seven) figures that the OP aspires to, attempting to alert him ahead of time that his plan was unlikely to work for his goal--since he had stated that he needs to make 100k. There were issues with blurb and content as well as the pricing and overall marketing strategy that seemed likely to hamstring him.

I've seen this a lot, and so have other folks who've been at this a while and made it work for them. Success doesn't happen randomly or because of pixie dust. If you want to reach x level, you'd be well advised to listen to the advice of those who have already reached that level. But somehow giving that advice, even in a thread where a poster asks, "How can I get a BookBub?" Or says, "I want to make 100k my first year and here's my plan," is perceived as mean, attacking, or tearing someone apart.

You won't make it if you can't evaluate plans and results honestly without a "wishing will make it so" attitude. And success comes from visibility (the essential element) plus product. The OP is using a pricing and distribution. strategy that hampers visibility, and there are (probably fixable) issues with his product. That's unlikely to work, and it's not helpful to [kitten]foot around that IMHO.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Mackay Bell said:


> Successfully marketing these kinds of stories to producers will require at least some success in self-publishing, but it doesn't have to be overnight and it doesn't have to generate steady income. It can be along the lines of: it was a 1# superhero, sci-fi, action seller on Amazon! (For one day six months ago.) Good reviews will help and I think audiobooks (again for lazy producers) will be a plus. Artwork, like covers, is important, but less for generating sales on Kindle than making the property look film ready.
> 
> With all that in mind, I'm hoping to slowly establish myself as a "brand" who writes a particular kind of film friendly story, and has at least some kind of following among readers. (Could be small and cult.)


Basically the model that's worked in the indie comics world, the high profile examples being M.I.B and Cowboys & Aliens.

I haven't noticed that kind of success yet, but there's no reason to think it couldn't work in self-pub novels the same way. It still seems like more of a lightning-strike plan than a business plan but for those not dependent on publishing to pay the bills it's worth considering.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Sigh. Have to love [kitten]


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Sigh. Have to love [kitten]


It's great. Seriously, OT, but it reminded me of once upon a time when someone was spamming a forum I moderated mercilessly with ads for home improvements and I was reduced to text filtering out their links and stuff because the IPs were randomized. I ended up (for fun) replacing "Kitchen" with "kitten" and so there were all these bizarre ads for kitten cabinets and kitten counters and kitten floors. Became a running joke.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Mackay Bell said:


> I suppose I fit into the second group, but I actually made a conscious decision not to be in the third.
> 
> My first novel took me a long time to write (three years) so I did a lot of research into self-publishing while I was working on it. I read all the advice about proper covers and writing to genre and how critical it was to market well in your first 30 days of release, etc.
> 
> ...


What you're writing seems very close to what I'm doing. I too am putting more emphasis on brand and catering the stories to a more action show style. Once I launch we should hook up for a cross promo. We may share the same fan base. If you want to check out my stuff to see if its similar, I got a sample on instafreebie right now. PM me if you're interested and I'll drop you a link to check it out.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

J. Tanner said:


> Basically the model that's worked in the indie comics world, the high profile examples being M.I.B and Cowboys & Aliens.


Yep. I met with the guy behind Cowboys & Aliens (long before the film) and I believe they had a poster before they even had a story. (And I don't think it ever had much in comic book sales before the film came out. Maybe not even after.) I am thinking along those lines.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Sony Television optioned my bestselling series last year. They absolutely asked for sales numbers and they ask for updates every quarter. Not sure how other studios operate, but that is my experience.


I'm not saying sales don't matter. They just aren't the only consideration. (Though clearly they are critical if you need to quit your day job.)

Obviously, really great sales will help, and once a studio has optioned a property it would make sense for them to want to be updated on how the property is performing. On the other hand, there are some very popular properties that get optioned and take years or decades to get produced (or don't get produced), and others that have a much smaller fan base, but end up getting produced quickly (for Hollywood). That might apply to some stories that don't easily fit into conventional popular reader genres, but which seem cinematic or have great high concept tag lines. As a generalization, studios might be more interested in big numbers, but independent film producers (who then sell to the studios) might see a low profile novel with a good concept as something they can acquire cheaply and then build on.

And yes, I'm hoping to make lemonade from the lemons I have. It would be terrific if I thought I could write Amazon bestsellers, or discover how to market brilliantly, I just don't think the stuff I enjoy writing hits the right genre beats for big ebook sales.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Rosalind J said:


> Sigh. Have to love [kitten]


Yeah, I've gotten that censor on a forum before too. And it really annoys me. Because it's letting the very people it's trying to censor win. You can't start censoring words with perfectly legitimate, non-vulgar meanings just because someone somewhere has used it as a euphemism for something vulgar. Or else soon half the words in the English language would be censored.

Censoring a perfectly legitimate word just because some foul-minded people use it to mean something vulgar is the same as agreeing with those people that that word means what they're using it for instead of what it actually means. Not only is that an offense against the English language, in the case of words like "[kitten]", it's actively participating in the sexism inherent in the vulgar use of that word by reminding people of the vulgar/sexist use even when the legitimate, non-vulgar use is intended. By censoring what's not there, they put it there in people's minds.


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> Sigh. Have to love [kitten]


Okay, I didn't realize at first that you were referring to the way certain words are censored here. All I know is that my day was absolutely MADE by seeing Rosalind James say "Have to love pussy."

Carry on.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Shawna Canon said:


> I bought the paperback in person at a conference, and then had her sign it. So she at least thought the paperback was still worth selling. (I checked for a Kindle version before buying because I would have rather bought that, and only bought the paperback because it was the only version available and I was really curious to read it. I guess this teaches me to look at the first page more often before buying.)


Oh!  Yes, that is weird. Although there are people, including authors, who think that the only real book is a paper book. Or so I'm told.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Mackay Bell said:


> My ultimate goal is to create intellectual property to sell to film studios. I work in that world and have a pretty good idea of how it works and what they are looking for. My first novel comes close to being a property that might get produced (lots of epic action sequences), but I probably made it a little too weird (it features a ninja Steve Jobs in an alternative reality universe), and it's longer than necessary (80,000 words). Rather than focus on tropes that sell ebooks in mass, my goals would be to have film friendly action, visuals that scream for CGI treatment, merchandizing possibilities and franchise possibilities (world building). Shorter novels are probably better (under 40,000 words), for short attention span producers. Having a series doesn't hurt, but probably doesn't help enough to justify the extra time (though the story has to feel like it could be a series or have sequels).
> 
> Successfully marketing these kinds of stories to producers will require at least some success in self-publishing, but it doesn't have to be overnight and it doesn't have to generate steady income. It can be along the lines of: it was a "1# superhero, sci-fi, action" seller on Amazon! (For one day six months ago.) Good reviews will help and I think audiobooks (again for lazy producers) will be a plus. Artwork, like covers, is important, but less for generating sales on Kindle than making the property look film ready.
> 
> ...


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you have much better odds of landing film deals if you concentrate on landing an L.A.-based agent and trying to get a screenplay(s) optioned? Not saying it can't happen via self-publishing, as there are success stories, just seems like if your ultimate goal is selling to Hollywood perhaps self-pubbing is quite a circuitous route.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Mackay Bell said:


> I'm not saying sales don't matter. They just aren't the only consideration. (Though clearly they are critical if you need to quit your day job.)
> 
> Obviously, really great sales will help, and once a studio has optioned a property it would make sense for them to want to be updated on how the property is performing. On the other hand, there are some very popular properties that get optioned and take years or decades to get produced (or don't get produced), and others that have a much smaller fan base, but end up getting produced quickly (for Hollywood). That might apply to some stories that don't easily fit into conventional popular reader genres, but which seem cinematic or have great high concept tag lines. As a generalization, studios might be more interested in big numbers, but independent film producers (who then sell to the studios) might see a low profile novel with a good concept as something they can acquire cheaply and then build on.
> 
> And yes, I'm hoping to make lemonade from the lemons I have. It would be terrific if I thought I could write Amazon bestsellers, or discover how to market brilliantly, I just don't think the stuff I enjoy writing hits the right genre beats for big ebook sales.


Something else you need to consider is how much Hollywood pays. It's not nearly as much as people would like to believe. I'm not even buying a private island or anything and according to my LA agent and entertainment attorney, I got a really good deal. 

Where an author stands to make big money is if your work is produced and your book sales shoot up. That's definitely what happened with The Martian. Or if it's a television series, you can make serious bank if it goes into syndication. But as you said, they can option all day long. Production is an entirely different matter. And then will a network pick it up? Or will a movie do well in testing and get released to the theaters or will it go straight to video? So many variables that effect earning potential. Trust me, it's easier to make consistent money writing books.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Ken Ward said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you have much better odds of landing film deals if you concentrate on landing an L.A.-based agent and trying to get a screenplay(s) optioned? Not saying it can't happen via self-publishing, as there are success stories, just seems like if your ultimate goal is selling to Hollywood perhaps self-pubbing is quite a circuitous route.


I know a lot of screenwriters. That is not an easy way to go and it's been getting much harder as colleges keep cranking out film majors. (Your best chance of getting an LA based agent is when you don't need one. That is, once you've already got a potential deal. It's very unlikely any agent worth having is going to go out of their way to promote a new writer. Unless it's the son of a producer or some other highly connected individual.)

The current buzzword in Hollywood is "intellectual property," which usually means book or comic book. Increasingly, studios are hesitant to buy original screenplays that don't already have some branding attached (even on a small level). Particularly for action/superhero/fantasy stuff. About 500 studio released films are produced every year. Half of them are based on source material (usually books). Easily twenty films are developed for each one produced. (Probably more.)

Also, little tip, if you write a screenplay, the studio will demand all your rights (including ebook publication), but if you sell the rights to an already published book, you have a much better chance of retaining many of your rights, including at minimum publication and maybe even some merchandizing. The other problem with a screenplay is that if you sell it, and it doesn't get produced, it's pretty much dead forever. A story that starts as a book, however, has a life of it's own. You can keep generating money from it and possibly hope that it's audience builds over time and the studio reconsiders producing it. So, the advice I've been given, both by entertainment lawyers and successful screenwriters, is that if you have any inclination, start with a novel (or even short story), publish it to secure your copyright, and then work on a screenplay.

But listen, it's all a long shot and there's no clear path. As William Goldman once said about Hollywood, "Nobody knows anything... Not one person in the entire motion picture field knows for a certainty what's going to work. Every time out it's a guess and, if you're lucky, an educated one."


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Trust me, it's easier to make consistent money writing books.


I'm assuming that's true. But, for me, that means writing books that have good film potential.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Mackay Bell said:


> I'm assuming that's true. But, for me, that means writing books that have good film potential.


I absolutely structured my series with film in mind. But all the things that are great on film also make great books.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> I absolutely structured my series with film in mind. But all the things that are great on film also make great books.


Yes, but you also apparently know how to write fast! That's a skill I do not possess. So making a living simply from ebooks I don't think is in my future.


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## SerenityEditing (May 3, 2016)

Shawna Canon said:


> in the case of words like "[kitten]", it's actively participating in the sexism inherent in the vulgar use of that word by reminding people of the vulgar/sexist use even when the legitimate, non-vulgar use is intended. By censoring what's not there, they put it there in people's minds.


You took the words right out of my mouth! I was thinking to myself, "I don't think I've ever thought about [kitten] while browsing KBoards until right now!" (c: Some comedian has a shtick on the same topic, about people saying "the __-word" instead of whichever actual word they're referring to. Like, "Now look what you've done. You've forced me to think your word for you. You've outsourced your racism/sexism/vulgarity!"


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Mackay Bell said:


> I know a lot of screenwriters. That is not an easy way to go and it's been getting much harder as colleges keep cranking out film majors. (Your best chance of getting an LA based agent is when you don't need one. That is, once you've already got a potential deal. It's very unlikely any agent worth having is going to go out of their way to promote a new writer. Unless it's the son of a producer or some other highly connected individual.)
> 
> The current buzzword in Hollywood is "intellectual property," which usually means book or comic book. Increasingly, studios are hesitant to buy original screenplays that don't already have some branding attached (even on a small level). Particularly for action/superhero/fantasy stuff. About 500 studio released films are produced every year. Half of them are based on source material (usually books). Easily twenty films are developed for each one produced. (Probably more.)
> 
> Also, little tip, if you write a screenplay, the studio will demand all your rights (including ebook publication), but if you sell the rights to an already published book, you have a much better chance of retaining many of your rights, including at minimum publication and maybe even some merchandizing. The other problem with a screenplay is that if you sell it, and it doesn't get produced, it's pretty much dead forever. A story that starts as a book, however, has a life of it's own. You can keep generating money from it and possibly hope that it's audience builds over time and the studio reconsiders producing it. So, the advice I've been given, both by entertainment lawyers and successful screenwriters, is that if you have any inclination, start with a novel (or even short story), publish it to secure your copyright, and then work on a screenplay.


And that's pretty much why I decided to write novels. Well, that and my interest sort of shifted on its own. When I started writing, I was totally focused on wanting to be a screenwriter. I even moved to LA after college to pursue it. Got a job sort of in the industry (news flash: reality TV and scripted TV are totally different worlds). Then I started seeing all that stuff you mentioned and decided that respect (screenwriters get so little respect, it's stupid), creative control of my work, and actually getting it in front of people was more important than the money (screenplays sell for a lot of money, even ones that are never produced). I guess that same thought process is what eventually, several years later, led me to decide to self-publish.

I think one of the big examples that affected me during that decision process and still rankles me is the story about that apparently amazing (so everyone said) script about the Sheriff of Nottingham as the good guy and kind of a CSI: Robin Hood story. The script made the rounds in Hollywood, everyone loved it, everyone wanted it, it sold... and then producers and actors and everyone else got their hands all up in the pie and it turned into just another generic Robin Hood movie (the one with Russell Crowe). And now no one else will ever read that story because that script sold and that movie has, in the weird logic of Hollywood lawyers, already been made. Even though it wasn't. At all.



SerenityEditing said:


> Some comedian has a shtick on the same topic, about people saying "the __-word" instead of whichever actual word they're referring to. Like, "Now look what you've done. You've forced me to think your word for you. You've outsourced your racism/sexism/vulgarity!"


Haha! That's hilarious and accurate. I need to remember that.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Shawna Canon said:


> I think one of the big examples that affected me during that decision process and still rankles me is the story about that apparently amazing (so everyone said) script about the Sheriff of Nottingham as the good guy and kind of a CSI: Robin Hood story. The script made the rounds in Hollywood, everyone loved it, everyone wanted it, it sold... and then producers and actors and everyone else got their hands all up in the pie and it turned into just another generic Robin Hood movie (the one with Russell Crowe). And now no one else will ever read that story because that script sold and that movie has, in the weird logic of Hollywood lawyers, already been made. Even though it wasn't. At all.


Yep. Lots of horror stories like that. (At least that writer got their script produced. I've had friends get their terrific scripts rewritten into mush and then not even produced.) Also, these days even Indy writers have the option of holding out to produce, so they can try to protect their work. (Fifty Shades of Grey being an example.)

There's an old joke in Hollywood. "This script is great! Who can we get to rewrite it?"


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Mackay Bell said:


> I suppose I fit into the second group, but I actually made a conscious decision not to be in the third.
> 
> My first novel took me a long time to write (three years) so I did a lot of research into self-publishing while I was working on it. I read all the advice about proper covers and writing to genre and how critical it was to market well in your first 30 days of release, etc.
> 
> ...


Bingo.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Mackay Bell said:


> I know a lot of screenwriters. That is not an easy way to go and it's been getting much harder as colleges keep cranking out film majors. (Your best chance of getting an LA based agent is when you don't need one. That is, once you've already got a potential deal. It's very unlikely any agent worth having is going to go out of their way to promote a new writer. Unless it's the son of a producer or some other highly connected individual.)
> 
> The current buzzword in Hollywood is "intellectual property," which usually means book or comic book. Increasingly, studios are hesitant to buy original screenplays that don't already have some branding attached (even on a small level). Particularly for action/superhero/fantasy stuff. About 500 studio released films are produced every year. Half of them are based on source material (usually books). Easily twenty films are developed for each one produced. (Probably more.)
> 
> ...


Given all you've said here, remind me never to pursue screenwriting, yikes. You're right, your approach sounds markedly better. Good luck with it! Also, love that you included that Goldman quote, one of my faves, I post it here in the forums every once in a while whenever it seems warranted.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't think writing a book with the sole intention of selling it to a movie producer is a wise idea.

First, you have to realized that more than a million books are being published in the US alone per year. The chances that your book would be selected are phenomenally low, and second, the best way of garnering the attention of producers would be to get a much attention on your book as possible. It doesn't matter if it was written with film in mind... Just about any book can be turned into a screenplay.

Would a producer take your book seriously if you contacted them and then they saw that your book was ranked super low and there was no buzz about it? Maybe... But he is more likely to think that readers just aren't interested in your story, thus wouldn't be interested in a movie rendition. But if you have a book, written for readers, that is blowing up the charts and getting a lot of attention, that's going to attract attention of movie producers, etc.

I actually think the chances of you getting 100k in your first year on your debut novel are higher than your first book being picked up for a movie deal. I think it's neat that there are so many different approaches, but no matter what your writing speed is, writing with your market in mind and pricing your book appropriately is going to get you more sales, more attention, and will likely draw attention of people like movie producers.  

When was the last time a flop was turned into a movie? I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I have a feeling that it's not all that frequent.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

VayneLine said:


> I hope op reads this. I like your boldness, and at first I was tempted to bring you back to earth a little simply based on the lack of realism of your goal (I'm new myself and if I can make a grand I'd feel successful) but then I see this thread where people are tearing you apart. It reminds me of the metaphor of a pot of boiling crabs and how they grab each other to prevent anyone from escaping. It was disgusting in a lot of ways.
> 
> Also, when starting I know how hard hits can be, so keep your head up man, you tried (trying) something a lot of people never man up to do, so congrats on that. Worst case scenario, remember its just people online.


A couple of things: I've followed this thread from the start and have seen no sign of any tearing apart. Merely trying to persuade the OP that he has wasted a lot of money on his own presumptions is not tearing him apart.

Secondly, I've seen a lot of posters declaring that he is doing what most wouldn't have the courage for. I take issue with that. It is not that we wouldn't have the courage, it is that we have more sense and know our own limitations. We have researched the way it goes and know that it usually takes more than one book and a long time to build up a following, so it is not lack of courage that prevents us spending $625 on a corporation in the absolute certainty that we have such a great book we will definitely need a tax shelter. I don't think that takes courage; I think it takes conceit. And I'm not congratulating anybody on being so conceited.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Doglover said:


> I don't think that takes courage; I think it takes conceit. And I'm not congratulating anybody on being so conceited.


The courage part comes in when you've spent enough time here that you know people will think you're conceited if you price high, and you do it anyway. You know you're opening yourself up to baseless personal assumptions on your character all grown from a single price you put on a product you sell. What's more, is that the majority of people will feel that way about you, which is enough to shut many people down from making an alternate choice. That does take courage to consciously step in another direction.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

I am not often here on the boards - as much as I find value, I don't always have the bandwidth. That caveat out of the way, this was a painful thread to read, yet somewhat expected. There's a lot of teaching moments possible, but most people are not teachers nor is there someone who wanted to be taught.

Quick note about me, because I think my posts to date are in the single digits: Publishing my first novel is my fourth job. I have a good paying day job. I'm a father to two small children. I'm also a military reservist. So, when it comes around to writing, the most expensive thing is time. We all have an opportunity cost for our time and choosing to venture into a new pursuits has to be weighed against spending that effort in other well-known areas with better profit. It's a job - if you think of it as a hobby or a passion, you'll take neither yourself nor your work seriously and you're wasting that time. I haven't taken it seriously before - I have lots of abandoned ideas and stories in a few art bins and copy file boxes. Now I'm far more interested in sharing my stories now as my opportunity cost has continued to climb, but the desire hasn't vanished.

So, what have I learned on this thread, comparing the advice and comments to the OP on what I've done to prepare my own debut?

1. Writers put a high premium on their ego and 'sweat equity' in their work. I learned long ago learning to check my ego at the door for reasons not writing related. It's made professional editing of my novel a breeze. I had no expectation of my work being lauded by angels and showered with potential award winning praise. Conversely, when someone swims against the school, it really irks some egos (rightfully so, as there's a difference between being a maverick and being a pariah). I put in the sweat equity. I'm not a slow writer, but the pocket universes I get to sit within the world of my novel are temporally small. Check on ego and check on work ethic. Everyone is doing this to their own degree, though I suspect some people do bring their ego onto the board to walk the dog, so to speak. I don't mind - I've met bigger egos. 

2. The OP is missing a couple of business plan elements - in self-publishing, there's no one else but you - you create the IP, you pay your bills, you collect revenue, you market and determine the NPV and ROI of your product. One is editing - something he's already working to correct. When I finished my first draft, I researched and determined that I needed a minimum of three professional edits - development, copyedit and proofreading. Why research? If you're not in the industry, you better figure out how to set yourself up to break even, if not succeed. That means you need to put in some research into project scope and effort from end-to-end. I did a couple of self-edits since my book was too large even for debut sci-fi. So the OP is getting through his second round copyedit and possible proofread. Good luck! Two is marketing - specifically he's gotten the front-end work (book blurb, cover, author bio, etc.) done, but there's literally no wood behind the arrow on the back end. This is something I have been working on - building an audience and finding a launch team. Beta readers are valuable and rare for a new author because many will say they want to read your book, but only a handful will actually read it and provide feedback that tracks you back on target. I doubt I will have a large following by the time I publish this month. That's okay. I've put in equity for a good book that has some compelling marketing aspects and is free of typos and glaring errors. The novel will be judged on its own merits and provide what's most important - a building reader base that will grow with the second novel and onward. Back to the OP marketing limitations - he also lacks initial reviews. I have no platform for which to criticize as I have no guarantee that the people I've put together will leave a review, but it sets a benchmark for launch. This may hobble him from achieving a level of ranking that garners subsequent purchases. It takes time for people to read books and leave reviews, so this is a slow build problem that works against the 30 day new release variable.

3. While the market reacts differently (e.g. J K Rowling vs. E L James success, as previously noted in this thread), while one cannot predict the reaction of a market, one can be statistically confident of a least hitting the market that you're writing to. I'm not sure the OP will hit his target market, as it may not be properly identified. Algorithms won't help if you don't input enough boundary variables. Of course, I say this without personal experience, and the OP may find his market and gain traction. Books are not instant reads, so it will take time to generate reviews, also-boughts, key word alterations, and market audience refinement. Also, the OP has stated he's going against genre convention, one must be sure only to deviate from genre just far enough to entice but not alienate. If I were to compare myself to the OP, I'd say my predictions and milestones are much less grandiose. It would be nice to make positive NPV on simply what I've spent on production. The next benchmark would be an ROI my writing time, and the rest is real profit and reinvestment into the next novel.

In summary, at least I've learned something about what to do and not to do on the kboards. Don't be too grandiose, listen to advice and thank people for their time, patience and free wisdom.

I'm actually still weighing the value of KDP vs. KU. The research continues. Thanks for letting me chime in with my limited viewpoint. I spent way too much time on this post, but it was an interesting bit of introspection.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> The courage part comes in when you've spent enough time here that you know people will think you're conceited if you price high, and you do it anyway. You know you're opening yourself up to baseless personal assumptions on your character all grown from a single price you put on a product you sell. What's more, is that the majority of people will feel that way about you, which is enough to shut many people down from making an alternate choice. That does take courage to consciously step in another direction.


I wasn't even thinking about the price, actually. I was thinking about the assumption that he was going to make $100,000 in the first year out of one book, his first book, together with the assumption that his book is so good it will do that. He can price it whatever he likes; a book, or anything else, is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it.


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## ThrillerWriter (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks for doing this. As of now it doesn't appear to be working spectacularly, but your willingness to fail has helped me learn and I truly appreciate that. Fail is a relative term, by the way. Putting the work in is what matters.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Mackay Bell said:


> The other problem with a screenplay is that if you sell it, and it doesn't get produced, it's pretty much dead forever.


Not if you only let them option it for a set amount of time. That's what I do. I agree to options for no more than two years depending on the studio and then if they don't go into development in that time I get the rights back and I get to keep the option money. Very few things actually go into development. Option money is still great.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Not if you only let them option it for a set amount of time. That's what I do. I agree to options for no more than two years depending on the studio and then if they don't go into development in that time I get the rights back and I get to keep the option money. Very few things actually go into development. Option money is still great.


How much money are we typically talking about here?


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## storyteller (Feb 3, 2014)

This is a good discussion on that very point, though not quite from the book to option perspective.
http://chipstreet.com/2010/02/02/ten-things-when-you-option-your-script/


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Eugene Kirk said:


> How much money are we typically talking about here?


Typical options run from $500 to $5000 for 1-2 years. And typically do not start production. It's basically free money. And if you win the lottery and it does go into production, you get a larger chunk of change typically set as a percentage of production budget.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> So, the probability filter: Kindle rank, and although most rank calculators are off the mark it's still usable ballpark figures.
> 
> OP has a target to make 100k in one year from 1 book at 9.99
> that's roughly equal to 10.000 sales for the year
> ...


There is one major, major flaw in this line of thinking, and I keep butting up against that, too:

*The book is wide*

Speaking for myself, because I can't speak for the OP because I can't see his figures:

On Amazon, my UK sales are higher than my US sales. 
For my higher priced titles, I sell way more on Kobo than Amazon.
Some of my higher-priced titles aren't even on Amazon

So what exactly, again, is a US Amazon ranking alone going to tell you? Nothing!


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

J. Tanner said:


> Typical options run from $500 to $5000 for 1-2 years. And typically do not start production. It's basically free money.


There is a down side, potentially. If another studio comes along and wants to offer you more money for the option or wants to actually put it into production, or if it's a studio/producer you have more faith in as far as getting a good movie that's true to your book ... if that happens and you've already optioned it, you won't be able to take that chance. I've heard of that happening to (admittedly pretty darn successful) authors.

Granted, that's the same as anything in life. The danger of taking one opportunity is that it's possible a better opportunity might come along later which you then couldn't take. Which obviously isn't a reason to take the first good opportunity, but it's always something to consider when you're deciding whether or not to take the first option. There's a risk in waiting for a better offer, but there's also a risk in taking the first one you get.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

AuthorX said:


> I don't think writing a book with the sole intention of selling it to a movie producer is a wise idea&#8230; Just about any book can be turned into a screenplay.


I write because I enjoy it. But I'm also aware that the kind of stuff I like to write is not necessarily in the best selling genres on Kindle. Yes, theoretically any book can be turned into a movie, but Hollywood goes through phases. Right now, everyone in development is talking about how "meet cute" movies (star crossed lovers) are dead. Romantic comedies are a hard sell for various reasons. So are court room dramas, etc.

If I'm going to make a decision whether to write a sci-fi adventure or an action thriller, looking at the Kindle charts might indicate that it would be smarter to write an action thriller (for example, I haven't checked). On the other hand, a good sci-fi adventure with a strong concept would be an easier sell to Hollywood. Producers option relatively unknown books all the time. It's not uncommon.

After doing some research, a noticed a couple writers who very smartly engineered successful indy careers with a combination of writing books quickly, having very professional covers, and spending wisely and well on marketing. One cranks out court room dramas (a former lawyer) and the other political thrillers (someone who worked in Washington). I looked at their success and went, OH! That makes sense! That's how you do it. Clearly there is a market for those kinds of books and pushing them out quickly one after another really helps them make money and hit the top of the charts almost every time out of the gate.

But... I'm not a fan of either of those genres. And I also know those genres are on the decline in Hollywood (for the moment). While it's certainly possible a good court room drama or political thriller might get optioned and made, everyone I talk to is looking for high concept sci-fi and over the top action. They sell really well in the foreign markets. And those happen to be genres I think I can write. So it (might) be a win win.

Pursuing this strategy also allows me to focus a little bit more on the long term picture and not chase after instant sales results while I learn. Nothing wrong with those people who have the talent and inclination to work that way, but I don't want to end up writing things I don't enjoy and spend all my time worrying about my sales rating on Amazon.


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## RightHoJeeves (Jun 30, 2016)

I used to do a lot of reading about screenwriting, and I quite fancied it as something to pursue (when I live in Western Australia? Yeah, right!).

I wrote about 10 half hour comedies, and got them professionally accessed. Of course they were pretty bad, and I got some great advice about storytelling. But the real thing I took away was how incredibly Sisyphean the whole enterprise was. There were enormous amounts of money involved, even for modest productions, and the dream of writing movies like the Coen Brothers or Aaron Sorkin or Quentin Tarantino was essentially impossible. Technically not, I suppose, because there were a handful of people doing them, but the amount of money and networking involved makes it seem like traditional publishing x 1,000,000.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> Not if you only let them option it for a set amount of time. That's what I do. I agree to options for no more than two years depending on the studio and then if they don't go into development in that time I get the rights back and I get to keep the option money. Very few things actually go into development. Option money is still great.


Yes, you always have the option of an... option. But that also applies to a story that starts as a book. (And, in fact, with a published book you should really probably only give them a limited option with a set time to produce it.) There is the danger that if you option a hot screenplay, and it doesn't get produced, it will be harder to option a second time because people will wonder why it wasn't made. But that still happens. The hope with a book, however, is that because it has an independent life, once the option ends fans will continue to clammer for it to be made and you'll have an additional sales tool. At least that's the hope.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

oakwood said:


> My bad, I wasn't aware the book was wide. Still, I don't think it matters much if it is wide simply because of the huge market share that Amazon US has over all others making it _the_ benchmark of modern publishing. It may not be a good thing, but it is what it is.
> 
> Stats of the current publishing world, divided between marketplaces and countries.
> http://authorearnings.com/report/february-2017/
> I find them to be quite accurate.


Nope. It varies HUGELY per author, and averages mean squat, especially with a specialist project like this.

Even on Amazon, I said above that my sales on Amazon UK are higher than the US (which is NOT reflected in the US ranking)

Readers on other platforms are much more willing to spend more on books, which is why being wide is the best for a project like this. The OP may find that his sales are higher on non-Amazon platforms. My big box sets sell diddly-squat on Amazon, but are my bestsellers on Kobo.

The AE averages mean nothing for the individual author who tries to appeal to a niche market.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Given the OP himself stated that he's sold 3 or 4 copies only, I think the Amazon or not sales talk in this case is pretty moot. It seems clear the book isn't selling well anywhere.

Also, other sites, like BN and Apple do have rankings. It is possible to cobble together at least a partial picture of how a book is doing if you look it up and watch the ranks etc for a week or two.  Not a perfect picture, perhaps, but enough to give an idea.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Ouch, I just wandered over to check the book's rank based on this thread, and there's a one-star review just gone up that simply _eviscerates_ the book.

Fair play to the OP for trying a different approach, but the received wisdom seems to have been bang on the money here. With that ranking, and that review, I think we might just have seen a pretty major nail in the book's coffin.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Mackay Bell said:


> If I'm going to make a decision whether to write a sci-fi adventure or an action thriller, looking at the Kindle charts might indicate that it would be smarter to write an action thriller (for example, I haven't checked). On the other hand, a good sci-fi adventure with a strong concept would be an easier sell to Hollywood. Producers option relatively unknown books all the time. It's not uncommon.


Until you mentioned this strategy I was completely unaware that getting an option was even a thing. I'm wondering what is the process for this? Do these people simply approach you? Are there people to reach out to or places to advertise opportunities?


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## Jo Black (Jan 12, 2017)

I have to agree that the Amazon US ranking tells you nothing about how much a book is making. My sales on apple are now higher than my combined Amazon sales and google have often out-performed Amazon as well. The bulk of my sales have always been Amazon UK. Raw market share figures don't split evenly on a per-market basis. My reader research tells me the majority of my readers are male non-US and read on primarily ipads and iphones or android devices. my bookfunnel stats showed that kindle was only 28 percent of downloads. In terms of profitability my free to paid conversion rate on apple has always been 5x higher on apple, and I have nearly 3 times the number of reviews for 25 percent of the downloads. The overall amazon rank is fairly useless for most niche genres simply because you have a smaller readership pool to draw sales from and the constant stream of promoted books means its much harder to keep a sticky rank. From 3 years data apple and google have delivered much more consistent sales. 

Everyone's mileage will vary - i pick up lots of sales for google/apple in countries amazon doesnt have a dedicated store which is much better for me as those sales would be 35 percent royalty on amazon.com and i get 70 across the board at apple and about 69 percent of an inflated then discounted price at google. In fact in revenue per unit googles comedy pricing structure means i earn the most per sale from google followed by apple as they dont charge delivery fees. 

Not bashing amazon - just saying that you cant assume anything by one store rank. If i stopped selling on amazon tommorrow i'd still make a very good income from apple and google.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

I can only think of two indie projects have been made into movies: Fifty Shades and the Martian. They'd already sold millions of copies by the time that happened. Meanwhile, other mega bestselling indie writers haven't even sniffed that level of success. That strategy feels about as likely as buying lottery tickets.

Meanwhile, a lot of writers make a good living at selling books. I suggest focusing your efforts on that.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Fifty Shades was never indie published unless you count the original fanfic version. It was small press and then sold to a bigger press.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Annie B said:


> Fifty Shades was never indie published unless you count the original fanfic version. It was small press and then sold to a bigger press.


Eragon, then? Although that was in a different era. Is there another example out there?

Anyway, it seems slightly more realistic to claim that you're going to write the next Wool than to write a book that will be turned into a movie. Either one is a pipe dream, but one involves work as a novelist rather than calling a triple bank shot in a game of horse as a way of getting into the movie industry.


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## RuthNestvold (Jan 4, 2012)

If I remember right, _Still Alice_ was originally self-published.


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## BlouBryant (Jun 18, 2016)

alawston said:


> Ouch, I just wandered over to check the book's rank based on this thread, and there's a one-star review just gone up that simply _eviscerates_ the book.
> 
> Fair play to the OP for trying a different approach, but the received wisdom seems to have been bang on the money here. With that ranking, and that review, I think we might just have seen a pretty major nail in the book's coffin.


The one star review isn't a verified purchase, the book isn't available in hard copy or in KU, I think the OP mentioned he'd not done beta's or sent out ARC's... and the reviewer has no other reviews to their name. Can't say that review is passing the sniff test. More like a internet special... someone pissed off at the OP, leaving a nasty on his porch after reading the preview.

BB


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

alawston said:


> Ouch, I just wandered over to check the book's rank based on this thread, and there's a one-star review just gone up that simply _eviscerates_ the book.
> 
> Fair play to the OP for trying a different approach, but the received wisdom seems to have been bang on the money here. With that ranking, and that review, I think we might just have seen a pretty major nail in the book's coffin.


The fact that the two reviews he has are a 5 star - Verified, and a 1 star - Not Verified, looks like a witch hunt to me. I checked the 1 star reviewer...they don't ever review...anything. I would guess this is someone trying to teach the OP a lesson. It's sad to me really.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Beth_Hammond said:


> The fact that the two reviews he has are a 5 star - Verified, and a 1 star - Not Verified, looks like a witch hunt to me. I checked the 1 star reviewer...they don't ever review...anything. I would guess this is someone trying to teach the OP a lesson. It's sad to me really.


I took a look, prepared to disagree. 90% of the time when a review is accused of being biased, it just means that it wasn't what the writer was hoping for. However, that review is something else. How long did it take to write that screed? Ax grinding, at the very least.

Unfortunately, all of us get unfair reviews eventually. It does hurt when it comes when there are only a handful out there. The solution is to get more sales and get a more unbiased view.


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> I took a look, prepared to disagree. 90% of the time when a review is accused of being biased, it just means that it wasn't what the writer was hoping for. However, that review is something else. How long did it take to write that screed? Ax grinding, at the very least.
> 
> Unfortunately, all of us get unfair reviews eventually. It does hurt when it comes when there are only a handful out there. The solution is to get more sales and get a more unbiased view.


Let me rephrase then. I'm not saying the 1 star review is inaccurate. I'm saying it seems odd that it is 1) unverified, and 2) by someone who has no prior reviews under their belt. And it's a mighty detailed and articulate review for someone who never does reviews.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

BlouBryant said:


> The one star review isn't a verified purchase, the book isn't available in hard copy or in KU, I think the OP mentioned he'd not done beta's or sent out ARC's... and the reviewer has no other reviews to their name. Can't say that review is passing the sniff test. More like a internet special... someone p*ssed off at the OP, leaving a nasty on his porch after reading the preview.
> 
> BB


But he did start the review by saying that the book was pointed out to him by a friend, so perhaps he borrowed her copy. He certainly went into too much detail for someone who hadn't read the entire book. I thought a lot of it was vitriol, though, and certainly sounded more like someone venting his rage than an honest review.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Until you mentioned this strategy I was completely unaware that getting an option was even a thing. I'm wondering what is the process for this? Do these people simply approach you? Are there people to reach out to or places to advertise opportunities?


I can only speak for myself. My literary agent spoke with a Hollywood agent about my series. She loved it and put together a presentation and shopping list then shopped it to every production company and studio she felt was worthwhile. (She's been in the industry for a long time and knows who to approach, when, with what and how) I talked to ten or so production companies/studio about the project and they were all major players. The first line of guys then pitches the project to the money people to see if they can get backing. The ones who got backing presented offers and the negotiating with the two agents and the entertainment attorney began, and I ultimately chose the best offer.

The option is one year and pays more than the 5k quoted before. They can re-up the option after that or put the series into production, at which point they pay a much larger amount for rights acquisition. Most everything is negotiable - consulting fees, flat fee for episode produced, production bonuses, percent of net, etc. Hence the need for a really great attorney who is well away what is the going rate on everything.


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## ......~...... (Jul 4, 2015)

alawston said:


> Ouch, I just wandered over to check the book's rank based on this thread, and there's a one-star review just gone up that simply _eviscerates_ the book.
> 
> Fair play to the OP for trying a different approach, but the received wisdom seems to have been bang on the money here. With that ranking, and that review, I think we might just have seen a pretty major nail in the book's coffin.


Nah, it's just proof that posting stuff on kboards that some person doesn't like might lead to you getting a 1-star review.

There's a reviewer that has a name that starts with J that likes to give vague ("self-published crap") 1-star reviews and their profile just happens to be private so you can't see all the 1-star reviews they've posted. I noticed them first when they reviewed a book that the author had a thread about on this forum. Then I noticed the same reviewer on several other indie books, usually ones without any other reviews and ones that obviously haven't gotten many sales/borrows anyway. I guess it's a fun pastime for this individual? Either way, they're vile. At the very least, Amazon shouldn't allow them to hide their reviews like that. It's always nice to know what kind of "reviewer" you're dealing with by checking out their profile.


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

NeedWant said:


> Nah, it's just proof that posting stuff on kboards that some person doesn't like might lead to you getting a 1-star review.
> 
> There's a reviewer that has a name that starts with J that likes to give vague ("self-published crap") 1-star reviews and their profile just happens to be private so you can't see all the 1-star reviews they've posted. I noticed them first when they reviewed a book that the author had a thread about on this forum. Then I noticed the same reviewer on several other indie books, usually ones without any other reviews and ones that obviously haven't gotten many sales/borrows anyway. I guess it's a fun pastime for this individual? Either way, they're vile. At the very least, Amazon shouldn't allow them to hide their reviews like that. It's always nice to know what kind of "reviewer" you're dealing with by checking out their profile.


I guess no matter where you go in life there will be a hand full of "those" people. Now I understand why some people choose to be anonymous here


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## thesmallprint (May 25, 2012)

That one-star review is from a writer/would-be writer. I'd bet plenty on that.

There can't be many first-time novelists who don't believe their book is great and will be a success. At the time of writing/publishing, this approach doesn't need conceit; it's just a belief. I believed it of my own first novel back in 1993. I look at that book now and it's awful. These days I'd burn it sooner than publish it. But that was part of learning to be a decent writer and I wouldn't be the low-selling, anxiety-riddled nonentity that I am today without that   (But I'm happy).  The OP, it seems to me, tried to mitigate the euphoria self belief brings, by detailed planning and big spending in the hope of giving the book every chance. He'll learn a lot from the experience and deserves much credit, imo, in baring his chest so publicly.  I wish you luck RT. Ignore the sour 1* and keep going.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

alawston said:


> Ouch, I just wandered over to check the book's rank based on this thread, and there's a one-star review just gone up that simply _eviscerates_ the book.


I am as skeptical as any here on the OP's approach; and the book, the packaging, the personal style involved are all very much not my cup of tea. (I have no problem wishing the fellow well though, and have done so.)

However, it's notable that the one-star review alawston mentioned looks like a personal screed more than a review. The reviewer appears to have no other reviews or activity to speak of and it is not a verified purchase review. Given the ranking, I think it likely doesn't matter in the scheme of things but a review of the temperament shown in the one mentioned is unfortunate as a general rule, regardless of the book or author. *(edit: looks like a point already well-covered before me. Teach me not to skip ahead.)*

If the OP is still popping in on this thread, I encourage you to reconsider the phrasing of your bio. It conveys an impression that I don't think serves you well.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

MonkishScribe said:


> I can only think of two indie projects have been made into movies: Fifty Shades and the Martian. They'd already sold millions of copies by the time that happened. Meanwhile, other mega bestselling indie writers haven't even sniffed that level of success. That strategy feels about as likely as buying lottery tickets.
> 
> Meanwhile, a lot of writers make a good living at selling books. I suggest focusing your efforts on that.


Indie A.G. Riddle (Atlantis Gene) has had all 3 books in his trilogy optioned iirc

(I agree with your broader point. Just wanted to recognize Mr "Riddle" (one of the more amusing and blatant nom de plumes).)


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

I've deleted a post that made a veiled reference to the authorship of the review under discussion. That sort of thing is 100% speculative and 100% inappropriate, so let's file it under NOPE.


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## ketosis (Apr 19, 2013)

Now another five star, unverified, has popped up with some short review.  Guys, writing that fake review is just as bad as writing the one-star hit job (which is what it obviously is).


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## Beth_Hammond (Oct 30, 2015)

loganbyrne said:


> Now another five star, unverified, has popped up with some short review. Guys, writing that fake review is just as bad as writing the one-star hit job (which is what it obviously is).


Yep, it's a slippery slope. Nothing good can come from it.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Here's why I don't leave bad reviews (actually, I don't review on any retailer at all anymore now that I am a professional author. If I love a book, I blog about it or post about it on Facebook, etc):

1. Compassion.

Most of us writers, authors and author-wannabes have a terrible first book under our belt somewhere in a bottom drawer or old thumb drive (or even some of us on old floppy discs!) Most of us were unable to publish those first books because there just wasn't the infrastructure (Before Amazon KDP) or they are hidden on some fanfic website that no one visits anymore (more confessions!) Those bad or even mediocre books had to be written, but our luck is that they aren't published under our real names. They were practice. Today, we are better writers and hopefully better storytellers because of writing those bad books. Those bad books and stories were our apprenticeship. We needed to learn and develop our craft.

Today, I could have published my first bad book and received terrible 1 star reviews in response, well-deserved probably. If I had, I might have slunk away with my tail between my legs and never have written again. Lucky for me Amazon KDP wasn't yet invented!

2. Ethics

I have a desire to genuinely help writers improve, not hurt them. Even authors who may have a bit too much ego or faith in themselves. God knows we authors need faith in ourselves and ego to get through the bad reviews.  We all get them. Tough skin is a requirement if you want to be in this biz long-term.

Reviews like the 1-star Invinciman received are mean spirited and while maybe accurate, seem aimed to shed heat rather than light. Like mental diddling, to use a non-banned word. 

How much better would it have been for the reviewer to send a modified review that contained the same light but less heat _privately_ to the author? That would help the author move on to his next book with some good feedback on what worked and what didn't work for at least one reader.

Sure, I dislike books all the time. I pick them up and stop reading somewhere in chapter one because the book failed to capture my interest. I put the book down and move on. No skin. I don't always finish books, because I don't have time to waste on a book that shows little promise in pleasing me. I would rather move on to a book that _does_ catch and keep my interest. Life is short. As Ferris Bueller says, if you don't stop and look around sometimes, you could miss it.

I always read the first pages of the preview when I buy a book, but that doesn't guarantee that I will like the whole thing, because sometimes an author will put a lot of effort into the first chapters so they have great preview but then the book fails to deliver. So sometimes, I will read a few chapters and stop because at some point, the book failed to keep my interest. Then, I move on.

I won't write a bad review -- even if _I felt_ the book was terrible.

My life is too short to spend reading and then reviewing books that failed to please me. That would be a big waste. If I wanted to help an author improve, I would offer a constructive crit that would mean I put in the time to read the whole book and then break down what worked for me and what didn't. It would still be only one person's response as a reader.

So, the person who wrote that review may feel great about themselves that they really eviscerated the book and in a devastatingly articulate manner, but what did they achieve except to please themselves and hurt a new author?

Big whop. That's like shooting fish in a barrel.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Everyone keeps talking like unverified reviews are definitely fake. The book is wide, guys. There's nothing saying someone didn't buy the book at a non-Amazon retailer, then decide to leave a review on Amazon for whatever reason. (Or, like someone else mentioned, possibly read a borrowed copy.) If the book was Amazon-exclusive, not in KU, and not available in paper, then being non-verified _might _indicate it's fake. But when the book is wide, non-verified means nothing. Personally, considering the amount of plot details in that one-star review, I have no reason to believe the reviewer didn't actually read the book. I also saw nothing to indicate it's a personal vendetta or the "sour grapes" of a failed author. Those are possibilities, sure, but just because someone had a negative reaction to a book doesn't mean the review is fake or that the reviewer has some personal grudge.


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## D.L. Shutter (Jul 9, 2011)

"...There's nothing saying someone didn't buy the book at a non-Amazon retailer, then decide to leave a review on Amazon for whatever reason."

This. It's also a brand new release from a guy who's determined to hit the ground running and make a huge splash. Hello...friends, relatives, co-workers There's a probably a few dozen people in his circle who've gotten the book emailed to them and read it on their phones, tablets or even side loaded to their Kindle. I know that last part sounds 2010'ish, but it still happens.   

Chill pills...they're down aisle 7, just past the suppositories.


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## PhoenixS (Apr 5, 2011)

************


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

PhoenixS said:


> And yet, I believe that is his real last name. The initials, however, are those of his wife's and his first names.
> 
> Also, no doubt 100+ indie books have been "optioned" -- I can easily think of a dozen off the top of my head -- but I believe the point was how many have actually gone into development and been produced?


Is it? Perhaps I stand corrected. With his debut novel entitled "The Atlantis Gene" I assumed A.G. Riddle was "Atlantis Gene Riddle" an amusing play on it as nom de plume.

Understood as regards options. I mentioned Mr. Riddle as an example with the full expectation that, given his staggering sales and multiyear position in the top of Zon sales rankings, his options will indeed see fruition.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

At least the OP can take heart that Amazon is actively showing the book to customers who come across it but don't buy.

I just got this in my email because of my browsing activity. I wouldn't want to buy a copy because I would really mess up the also-boughts, given the kind of books I buy most often, which are new adult romance!


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Shawna Canon said:


> Everyone keeps talking like unverified reviews are definitely fake. The book is wide, guys. There's nothing saying someone didn't buy the book at a non-Amazon retailer, then decide to leave a review on Amazon for whatever reason. (Or, like someone else mentioned, possibly read a borrowed copy.) If the book was Amazon-exclusive, not in KU, and not available in paper, then being non-verified _might _indicate it's fake. But when the book is wide, non-verified means nothing. Personally, considering the amount of plot details in that one-star review, I have no reason to believe the reviewer didn't actually read the book. I also saw nothing to indicate it's a personal vendetta or the "sour grapes" of a failed author. Those are possibilities, sure, but just because someone had a negative reaction to a book doesn't mean the review is fake or that the reviewer has some personal grudge.


I agree, too much emphasis on "verified reviews." If I wrote a review it wouldn't be shown as a 'verified purchase' review, even though I legitimately acquired the book and did indeed read it. Why would my opinion be less valuable than anyone else's?

(BTW, a bit off-topic but-- I know Amazon allows anyone to write a review, but what happens to those reviews that aren't verified purchase?? I don't believe they're shown with the other reviews. It's like submitting a school paper and having the teacher tuck it away in a drawer rather than hang it on the wall with the others.  )


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Jena H said:


> (BTW, a bit off-topic but-- I know Amazon allows anyone to write a review, but what happens to those reviews that aren't verified purchase?? I don't believe they're shown with the other reviews. It's like submitting a school paper and having the teacher tuck it away in a drawer rather than hang it on the wall with the others.  )


The filter for reviews defaults to verified purchase. When you pull up the review view, however, you can change the filter to encompass all reviews. Because of the default and the increased protection from being culled for various and sundry reasons, a lot of authors give greater consideration to verified purchase reviews in terms of cultivating reviews. A prominent example is Mark Dawson (one of the very successful members of these boards) who soft launches at a trivial price, to afford his ARC readers a chance to purchase and bump their review to verified status, before his standard price hard launch.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Jena H said:


> I agree, too much emphasis on "verified reviews." If I wrote a review it wouldn't be shown as a 'verified purchase' review, even though I legitimately acquired the book and did indeed read it. Why would my opinion be less valuable than anyone else's?


Because the opinion of someone who _paid_ for a product is worth more than the opinion of a person who _did not pay_ for that product. That's the case whether we're talking about pizzas, laptops, refrigerators, software, or books. The more a person sacrifices to acquire something, the greater merit his opinion is given.

Is it possible that a non-verified reviewer paid for a book at another retailer? Of course. But the absence of a "verified" tag doesn't allow for the distinction on Amazon. So legitimate reviewers get tossed into the same bucket as sock puppets. Their opinions are worth less.

It's unfair, but there it is.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Patrick Urban said:


> The filter for reviews defaults to verified purchase. When you pull up the review view, however, you can change the filter to encompass all reviews. Because of the default and the increased protection from being culled for various and sundry reasons, a lot of authors give greater consideration to verified purchase reviews in terms of cultivating reviews. A prominent example is Mark Dawson (one of the very successful members of these boards) who soft launches at a trivial price, to afford his ARC readers a chance to purchase and bump their review to verified status, before his standard price hard launch.


Thanks. I think I'd seen that before, but obviously forgot.



Anarchist said:


> Because the opinion of someone who _paid_ for a product is worth more than the opinion of a person who _did not pay_ for that product. That's the case whether we're talking about pizzas, laptops, refrigerators, software, or books. The more a person sacrifices to acquire something, the greater merit his opinion is given.
> 
> Is it possible that a non-verified reviewer paid for a book at another retailer? Of course. But the absence of a "verified" tag doesn't allow for the distinction on Amazon. So legitimate reviewers get tossed into the same bucket as sock puppets. Their opinions are worth less.
> 
> It's unfair, but there it is.


You said it yourself: just because someone didn't _pay for it_ on Amazon doesn't mean it wasn't purchased (or given to the reviewer as a gift, or whatever). And yes, it is unfair. It would be more correct and precise if the tag was "verified Amazon purchase."


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

It's important to note that if someone borrows a book and reads it via KU, the review does not show up as verified.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Write.Dream.Repeat. said:


> It's important to note that if someone borrows a book and reads it via KU, the review does not show up as verified.


But this book isn't in KU.


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## JaclynDolamore (Nov 5, 2015)

Patrick Urban said:


> Understood as regards options. I mentioned Mr. Riddle as an example with the full expectation that, given his staggering sales and multiyear position in the top of Zon sales rankings, his options will indeed see fruition.


I think there is always an element of luck/randomness in the movie actually getting made...having come from YA, I have friends who had books on the bestseller list for over a year, and then even books on the series bestseller list (even harder to crack), right at the perfect time for the YA movie boom, and had big deal options sell in auction situations...but as far as people I know where the movies actually were made, it's just as likely to be little midlist books no one has heard of that become made-for-TV movies or indie films and whatnot.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Until you mentioned this strategy I was completely unaware that getting an option was even a thing. I'm wondering what is the process for this? Do these people simply approach you? Are there people to reach out to or places to advertise opportunities?


The best thing is if producers/development executives approach you. They discover your work and seek the rights. (Which has the advantage of you just focusing on writing really great stuff.)

The way Hollywood works is this: any big producer or filmmaker will a number of people who "develop." The studios also have large departments of people too. There are, conservatively, several hundred people whose job is primarily to find new material. But really their job is simply to say "no" to everyone. That is, they are gatekeepers assigned to keep the masses from leaping over the wall and storming the castle while established filmmakers focus on their own projects. However, most of them are really pretty good people who love film, love reading and want to find new stuff. Their job is technically to read stuff the producer hands them and write notes, but they are all hungry to find that hot project they can discover and take to the producer/studio that the producer will say "yes" to. (I'm friends with some of these people, and they often get yelled at if they write too favorable of notes about submitted scripts, because the producer doesn't want to get bothered by so many submissions. Getting movies produced is hard, and it's a lot easier to just come up with reasons why something shouldn't be made. "Skews too old. No foreign value. No good lead casting options.")

So I would say the best strategy (or at least the one I'm going to pursue) is to simply get your work out into the world and hope you can create a little buzz for it and yourself as a writer (or for you ebook imprint). What you hope is that your story seems like it's such a good idea for a movie, that people comment on that. And then a development person encounters that comment (maybe on Facebook or an Amazon review) and reads for themselves. Then they contact you.

Overall, unsolicited submissions don't work. (Like emailing or sending your book directly to a producer unasked if you can find their info.) But sometimes they do. It's a very frustrating process and I'm not sure that's the way to pursue it. (Though there are always stories, I think urban legends, about someone throwing a script over a wall and it getting purchased.) Likewise, taking ads out to promote your work to studios usually is viewed as amateurism and doesn't help.

If you can get an established agent or lawyer to try to sell your book (as someone suggested before), that's also a good option, but getting an agent interested can be as time consuming and frustrating as approaching studios directly. (And lawyers are expensive.)

What else can you do rather than wait for them to come to you? Well, geography doesn't hurt (I'm based in Burbank, near all the studios). If you're in the Los Angeles area, and particularly if you work in the industry (even as a messenger or at a studio coffee shop, or a tech consultant like me), you'll meet people who might be able to help you. Also, depending on your genre, you can try to target things like major comic book conventions, which will be teaming with development people from the studios, or hope to get a write up about your work in some blog, magazine or newspaper (Los Angeles Times) that might be viewed by development executives. Hopefully about how your stuff is so hip and cool. Write ups like that might not result in large ebook sales, but they might attract interest in your story to from right people.

The goal is to connect to that one development person who might go to the mat for your story because they love it so much. So on that level, the quality of the writing is really important. The top execs, and the marketing departments, will probably make their final judgment based on a single line "Zombie Mom tries to save her kids from herself" but to get to the point where someone pulls the trigger, it sure helps if anyone who actually reads your book really, really loves the writing. (Not that crap doesn't sometimes get made, and not that they might not mess it up with changes. But if you're an outsider, you really need to make sure you're working with your best material.)

None of it is easy. But if you're going to dream, why not dream big? I think after the success of The Martian (and Fifty Shades of Grey), if every major studio doesn't have already someone scouring for hot indy books, they will soon. (And yes, I know those books eventually had big publishers, but the viral, started on blogs and forums stuff really helped get them attention and added to the mythos.) I also suspect there are a lot more indy writers out there with options already that aren't getting talked about so much. Studio development takes about five years. The self-publishing boom is about five years old. It's quite likely we're going to start seeing a lot of movies produced on works originally self-published soon. And Hollywood always loves fads, so it could take off in a big way.


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## AmpersandBookInteriors (Feb 10, 2012)

Doglover said:


> But this book isn't in KU.


Oops, great point! I'd forgotten.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

It's sad that someone decides to go out of their way to trash someone's hard work in the form of a one-star review. I get that sometimes you feel a bad review of something you genuinely disliked is a worthy use of your time, but this review in particular seems overly harsh. 

R.T., just know that I for one think it's cool that you were willing to put yourself out there and announce your plans and ambitions for the future. I'm not as brave, and I also don't write in your genre but I do admire others for their willingness to blaze a trail and share their progress. So thanks for documenting your journey, and best of luck in the future and don't let the ____ get you down.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2017)

There is a very good reason many of us do not reveal who we are.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

This is a really fascinating thread covering many topics. Well done to the op for instigating so much discussion


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

Ken Ward said:


> It's sad that someone decides to go out of their way to trash someone's hard work in the form of a one-star review.


I suspect R.T. has enough self-esteem to spare that one bad review isn't going to hurt too much. It will probably spur him on. And it seems to me the way he is proceeding, a really nasty review like that might even help him build more hype. There's always going to be haters.


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## Created4Life (Jan 11, 2017)

I've been following this thread since its inception. Now that I am almost finished with my first story, I have been interested in his approach, one that I did not take. I have made so many mistakes on the opposite end of the OP. 1) I published too early, in parts. 2) I self-edited. 3) I made my own book cover. 4) I had no plan to market. And on and on it goes with the mistakes I've made. I am the epitome of the indie-publisher who did everything wrong.

I applaud the OP with his slow, thoughtful approach to publishing his work. Even though he made choices I would not make, he at least made them having done his research properly. He made informed decision. I did just the opposite and have paid a price for "entering the fray" completely unprepared.

About the 1-star review. Total speculation. But I'm gonna throw it out there. I wonder if the OP produced the 1-star review himself. Almost sounds like the unconventional thing he'd do to continue the discussion of his work. Just my thoughts. I'd be happy to be wrong.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Ken Ward said:


> It's sad that someone decides to go out of their way to trash someone's hard work in the form of a one-star review.


Unfortunately though it happens here, particularly when you express an opinion inconsistent with the rest of the herd. 1-star drive-bys were why I removed my titles from my signature.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Created4Life said:


> About the 1-star review. Total speculation. But I'm gonna throw it out there. I wonder if the OP produced the 1-star review himself. Almost sounds like the unconventional thing he'd do to continue the discussion of his work. Just my thoughts. I'd be happy to be wrong.


I wondered this too. The OP's approach is so studied and calm, so calculatedly running against received wisdom that I've wondered more than once if it's just an academic experiment on his part, and the objectives have nothing to do with selling books. Maybe he's more interested in studying our reactions. But if any part of his intention was to get us talking - well done, OP, you've succeeded.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Maybe he's more interested in studying our reactions....


I'm now imagining a documentary about the behaviour of the k-boards as narrated by David Attenborough


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

I'm impressed he got that many sales at $9.99 a pop. More or less confirms my suspicion than price is fairly irrelevant. Maybe I'll bump a few up to $9.99 and see how they do.

I've never noticed that increasing the price led to lower sales, nor that lowering the price led to increased sales, but I've never had the courage to make the logical conclusion.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> I was completely unaware that getting an option was even a thing. I'm wondering what is the process for this? Do these people simply approach you?


That's generally been the case with me. The one option that resulted in a movie was sold by Doubleday, but I've had three options otherwise that simply came in the email. Two have evaporated, the third is still in progress. Two have been amateurs, one was a well-positioned Hollywood professional. (As was, of course, the Doubleday option.)

In every case, somebody read the book and fell in love with it (not necessarily the plot or the action, but in love with an idea of his own that could come out of the story).


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

notjohn said:


> I'm impressed he got that many sales at $9.99 a pop. More or less confirms my suspicion than price is fairly irrelevant. Maybe I'll bump a few up to $9.99 and see how they do.


The current rank is 148,158. The goal in the thread title is $100,000. I don't think that qualifies as a success or any sort of confirmation of your suspicions that price is irrelevant.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

There is a very good and simple reason indies price lower than the Big 5. We can. I can make my investment back easily without charging the world for a book. The reader gets a fun story at a reasonable price, and I make money. I don't have 100 employees to pay. I don't have to cover the cost of thousands of paperbacks or the cost of storage. I only have my own expenses to attend. I just need to sell a couple of thousands books and the rest is profit. 
Could I charge more? Sure. But I have respect for my readers. I don't think they're stupid. If I overcharged, they would think I'm just getting greedy. And rightly so.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Anarchist said:


> Is it possible that a non-verified reviewer paid for a book at another retailer? Of course. But the absence of a "verified" tag doesn't allow for the distinction on Amazon. So legitimate reviewers get tossed into the same bucket as sock puppets. Their opinions are worth less.


Only if the person reading the reviews believes so. Amazon doesn't *make* you give more credibility to "verified purchase" reviews. You choose to do that yourself. Personally, the first thing I do when looking at product reviews is click to all reviews instead of verified only. Verified purchase means nothing to me.

I also disagree with your assertion that the opinion of someone who pays for something is worth more than someone who doesn't, but that's the sort of fundamental belief that's not based at all on reason, so I can't really argue you out of it.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

LilyBLily said:


> I read the negative reviews first. Always. On any kind of product.


These days, I ignore 1-star reviews. Too many crazies posting them.

Examples:

"_I haven't read it yet._"

"_No pie charts_."

"_I wanted the paperback edition._"

"_Awesome story!_"

lol

I start with the 4-star reviews and work down to the 2-star reviews. They tend to have a higher signal-to-noise ratio.


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## _Rolf (Mar 16, 2017)

Quatermass said:


> To the OP's credit, he did a great job of building suspense... I was checking back every few minutes to see if he'd put up the blurb yet!
> 
> _Edited. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca_


I agree. I was checking too...

As a new writer who only recently discovered this forum, I would like to thank all of you for the hard won trade wisdom and candid information you've shared. This is a thread well worth reading and bookmarking.

What a great community this is.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

*Ah, the one-star review!*

I'll give my thoughts very quickly (a lot going on tomorrow; I'm in a situation very similar to this one, but it's not my own, though I'm basically handling everything on one side, and tomorrow's going to be our ninth court date).

I actually thought the review was very well written, LOL, and began taking notes to see how I could improve my writing / storytelling for future works (as I have in this thread; I've got every post made screencapped for future reference as a helpful guide in case this thread should ever go missing!). In some respects, I agree with the reviewer as far as trying to be too animated with the style of writing, but I remember having this debate with myself in the midst of writing it -- attempting to create an effective action-adventure that would hold on to the interest of a young adult who might not be a big reader, but is expecting the same experience that comes from a big budget Hollywood picture like X-MEN or THE AVENGERS. But all caps are only used sparingly in the first few chapters, and very rarely thereafter (italics are used throughout for emphasis, though I'll certainly remember to ease it up in the future).

I LOVE that the reviewer noticed the plot holes in the first part (File1.tmp), because so did I after I wrote them (LOL), and I covered them up by the end of the book (ultimately making for a deeper story; an unintentional side effect!). Unfortunately, it looks like the reviewer stopped reading after part one, but if they would've continued, it all sorts itself out and makes sense!

I'm not sure if the reviewer is a KBoarder (though, the way it's written suggests they have very good critical analysis on literature), but I think the reviewer legitimately had their hands on a full copy of the book, since they referenced things that occurred in chapters six and eight (and the "Look Inside" ends at chapter three). It did seem that it just wasn't their cup of tea, though, but whether that was because of the genre or the novel itself is anybody's guess (maybe both).

A one-star review was going to be inevitable at some point (from what I had researched while I was still writing the novel), so it's almost comical to me that it ended up being my first review ever, haha. I'm just really appreciative that someone took the time to actually read the story and provide explanations for things they didn't like, and I feel that having that knowledge will ultimately lead to an improvement on my craft (something that should be really desirable for a fresh author).

Moreover, the experience is made all the more wonderful due to the amazing support I'm getting from fellow KBoarders. Again (and I can't say this enough), thank you for that! It really helps!

P.S. I didn't write the one-star review, haha. But I love that that was speculated, and writers are on their feet! Good stuff!


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## Tess McCallum (Jan 3, 2017)

Hat's off to the OP for a mature, thoughtful response to the 1 star review and for all his responses so far. Whether you agree with his approach or not, it's not easy to put yourself out there the way he has or to have the guts to try something different. Best of luck to him.


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## Mackay Bell (Mar 28, 2015)

R. T. Leone said:


> *Ah, the one-star review!*
> Moreover, the experience is made all the more wonderful due to the amazing support I'm getting from fellow KBoarders. Again (and I can't say this enough), thank you for that! It really helps!


Great attitude! Okay, so payback time. Let us know, if you don't mind, exactly how your sales go. (Even if they aren't what you hope.) I'm very curious.

And I would suggest, before you revise your plan (say lowering the price or doing a big rewrite) check in again so we can all weigh in or see what others advise. Best of luck!


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

The problem is, you don't have a whole book to convince someone to like your work. You have a chapter or two, if they are feeling generous. You can't make mistakes in the early part of a book and expect people to trust it will work out in the end. Readers won't take that leap of trust, especially not as this is your only book so it isn't like they are a dedicated fan who might know your work already and trust it to work out. You have to write a great beginning to hook readers. Without that, it will be very difficult to gain any readership at all since most won't finish the book if they even get past the sample enough to buy it.

I think that one-star is pretty reasonable, though I've only read the sample. If I were the author of this book, I'd be taking notes, and thinking about maybe taking a craft workshop or something to improve. Consistency of voice and style is a really important thing in writing fiction that sells.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

Annie B said:


> The problem is, you don't have a whole book to convince someone to like your work. You have a chapter or two, if they are feeling generous. You can't make mistakes in the early part of a book and expect people to trust it will work out in the end. Readers won't take that leap of trust, especially not as this is your only book so it isn't like they are a dedicated fan who might know your work already and trust it to work out. You have to write a great beginning to hook readers. Without that, it will be very difficult to gain any readership at all since most won't finish the book if they even get past the sample enough to buy it.
> 
> I think that one-star is pretty reasonable, though I've only read the sample. If I were the author of this book, I'd be taking notes, and thinking about maybe taking a craft workshop or something to improve. Consistency of voice and style is a really important thing in writing fiction that sells.


Absolutely. It's like querying an agent. If you don't grab them on the first few pages you're done; off to the rejection pile you go. Especially in a genre centered around action. And the editing had better be done well. No one wants to slog through poorly edited text after they have paid $9.99. Talk about an angry reader....


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

R. T. Leone said:


> I actually thought the review was very well written, LOL, and began taking notes to see how I could improve my writing / storytelling for future works (as I have in this thread; I've got every post made screencapped for future reference as a helpful guide in case this thread should ever go missing!).


The lovely thing about indie publishing is that you can learn as you do. I mean, obviously, it's ideal to enter the business already at the top of your game, with all your ducks in a row, insert further cliches here, etc. But not everyone does. If you're more of a ducks-all-over-the-pond type (which I was), you have a chance to learn and grow in response to the feedback you get from readers and other sources. An already published book can be rewritten. (I revised my first one pretty heavily a couple years in, since the experience of writing my second improved my skills.) If it takes a whole series to get the wheels on the Corvette, well, a new pen name can be started. (If I really needed to make money from my writing, I would do that.) There's just a lot of opportunity for reinvention and improvement, so long as you're open to critical feedback without being crushed by it. Sounds like that's the case with you, R.T. Way to go.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

LilyBLily said:


> I read the negative reviews first. Always. On any kind of product.


Me, too. If they are thoughtful reviews, more than one telling me the spelling/grammar is all wrong, the historical period is all wrong etc. I'll pass. The one star review that the OP has gleaned is not thoughtful; it is a demolition job.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> Your sales in UK are represented in the report. In the slice that is Amazon UK, and if you are wide in the slices that represent the wide marketplaces.


We're comparing apples with motorbikes here.

You're talking about the latest AE report, which is international. It still does not tell the complete story about niche markets that the OP could well fall into. Julie from Bards & Sages is a very good example of this. There are others, like Cora and some peeps who make more on Google Play than Amazon. That OP likely doesn't fall into this category is moot point. I just don't want to continue the dogpiling on the OP in this thread. He's got his big boy pants on and can see how it's going.

I am talking about the suggestion upthread that one can tell the author's sales from looking at the Amazon US ranking. In fact this tendency on the boards to dismiss people based on their Amazon US rankings royally pisses me off. Because a writer, even one in KU, is more than their Amazon US rankings, but especially if the book is wide. And this effect can be especially strong for specialist books, like, potentially, this one. I'm not going to go googling to check. As I said, the OP has big boy pants and we don't need to dogpile. He can see it.

In October 2013, only 5% of my sales (then about $800 per month) came from Amazon. It happens.


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## alawston (Jun 3, 2012)

Patty Jansen said:


> In fact this tendency on the boards to dismiss people based on their Amazon US rankings royally p*ss es me off. Because a writer, even one in KU, is more than their Amazon US rankings


Yeah, I guess I was one of the ones who fell into this trap, and I feel bad about that, because it always annoys me too. It's only been in the last two years that I've done any business on Amazon.com _at all_. The bulk of my earnings previously came from Amazon UK and Smashwords. That changed when I gave KU a shot, but I still have very mixed feelings about it - I couldn't honestly say I made much more money, just that it started coming from another channel.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> We're comparing apples with motorbikes here.
> 
> You're talking about the latest AE report, which is international. It still does not tell the complete story about niche markets that the OP could well fall into. Julie from Bards & Sages is a very good example of this. There are others, like Cora and some peeps who make more on Google Play than Amazon. That OP likely doesn't fall into this category is moot point. I just don't want to continue the dogpiling on the OP in this thread. He's got his big boy pants on and can see how it's going.
> 
> ...


I've been following this thread and haven't really seen any dogpiling. It's definitely a popular thread, because not many debut authors make posts like this detailing their unusual launch strategies. But for the most part, I think everyone has just been trying to offer advice to help the author succeed on this title and his future titles.

Maybe it seems like dogpiling because very few in the thread agree with his strategy (and rightfully so, because the results were all predicted), and people keep talking about ranking simply because it was the author's intention to hit $100k in profit the first year. Unless the OP releases his sales numbers, its the best way to compare the success of this strategy versus the tried and true strategies.

Is the author getting the # of sales he needs on other channels when his ranking on the largest retailer is low? Maybe, but that is wishful thinking. It's always been a general consensus that wide is a long and slow game. Have there been any recent stories of self-published authors launching their first book wide and hitting it out of the park? Three book series and the first book permafree, maybe... But a single, standalone novel priced at $9.99?

No one is dismissing him based on his ranking... In fact, I think he should be applauded for putting himself out there like this, and I think he's doing even better than I would have expected. But it's clear that he's not making anywhere near his goal, and you can pretty much deduct that by looking at his sales ranking on Amazon.com.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

LilyBLily said:


> I read the negative reviews first. Always. On any kind of product.


Me too. And sometimes I've bought a book BECAUSE of the negative reviews. It's not uncommon that the things which other people hate enough to make them write a negative review are exactly the things I like. Especially true with historical romance that's very heavy on the 'historical' aspects and really gets into the seamier side of life in the period. And 'boring' literary fiction. The thing is, people often get really specific about the things they hate. I think for most people it's much harder to write informatively about the things you love.


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

Sales rank = more sales = better earnings is a myth. It CAN happen that way. But not always. I just did a post in a Facebook group this week comparing 4 titles with 4 price points ($0.99, $4.99, $8.99 and $9.99) and gave their sales ranks in the .com store. I asked them to rank them by EARNINGS in the last week. Only 3 people of about 20 who guessed got the order right.

Every single sale at $9.99 is worth TWENTY sales at $0.99 as far as earnings to the author goes. So literally 2 sales at $9.99 makes you want it takes 40 sales at $0.99 to make. 40 sales at $0.99 is going to put you in the top #10,000 of books selling, 2 at $9.99 might put you in the #30,000-#200,000 rankings depending on the timing. Both authors made equal money.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

notjohn said:


> I'm impressed he got that many sales at $9.99 a pop. More or less confirms my suspicion than price is fairly irrelevant. Maybe I'll bump a few up to $9.99 and see how they do.
> 
> I've never noticed that increasing the price led to lower sales, nor that lowering the price led to increased sales, but I've never had the courage to make the logical conclusion.


I read (and write) books in the superhero genre. My second favorite series is _Wearing the Cape_. That author prices at $7.99. I definitely think twice at making a purchase at that price point despite how much I like the series. To date, I have bought all the mainline novels, but I decided against buying an ancillary novel or the latest in the series, an anthology.

If the author of that series priced at $4-5, I'd have purchased both those other books.

For me to even consider the OP's book at $10, the cover/pitch/sample would have to blow me away.

I can't speak for any reader besides myself, but it's hard for me to see how price would be irrelevant when it goes above a certain threshold.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

This is apropos of nothing considering the subject of this thread, but I wonder:  what is an 'ultramodern' author??


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

The advantage of more sales at a lower price is, of course, visibility. Unless you are in a tiny niche genre, visibility is your biggest challenge. Twenty sales at 99 cents may make you the same as one sale at $9.99--but if you want to hit big numbers, you need to hit the lists for your genre, and one sale won't do it. 

I know for sure that I wouldn't have the career I do if my first book hadn't sold 10,000 copies in a few weeks (and I hadn't given away almost 100,000 copies the week before that). Having my book in 110,000 hands both meant that I could find my audience--the percentage of that total who went on to read the next book--and got me a spot on the Amazon Top 100 where my book could take off and get word of mouth. That would not have happened if I'd sold 500 copies of that book. Just not enough traction, not enough rubber meeting the road. I wasn't so interested in earning $3,500 on that book. I was interested in earning $35,000, and then $350,000. 

The exception would be if you have a six-figure marketing campaign and somebody behind it who really knows what they're doing, a la Meredith Wild. 

That's basically why people advocate pricing lower, especially for an entry-level book. Traction. Eyeballs. Visibility. In indie publishing, visibility is king, and if you're not going to buy it, you at least want to remove all the friction you can. Remove the barriers to people giving the book a try once they're intrigued by the cover and blurb. 

Ace marketers, especially in niche genres, don't have this issue. They're getting visibility in other ways, and it doesn't take many sales in a tiny subgenre to wind up on big hitters' alsobots. If you're writing, say, Contemporary Romance or Cozy Mystery, you're in a different situation. I don't know how big the superhero genre is. But I do know it's still all about visibility. 

I should say--NOW, my cheapest book is $2.99. I tested that after having it at 99 cents for years and found no difference. Similarly on the other series--even having the first book at 99 cents vs. 4.99 made no difference. But when I tried that a couple years ago, the sales on the series tanked. Now, I guess I have enough reviews to be more reassuring, and KU has also made a difference. (When I tried 2.99 before, it was pre-KU.) If I were wide, I'd definitely have all the first books in series either free or 99 cents.


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## CassieL (Aug 29, 2013)

oakwood said:


> I agree the rank is not solely based on units sold, it takes into account *value of sales*, where correctly, 9,99 has a better rank effect than 0.99 sale, as do reviews. many reviews affect rank too. Still, figuring out where do I need to be can't be bad, can it? It serves as more than just a $-target, it points to a required marketplace-target. Books don't sell themselves, someone has to buy then.. from the market.


Pretty sure this isn't true for most of Amazon's lists. It's a straight units sold ranking. I think there's one list where the sale price factors in but not on the others. Phoenix Sullivan is the expert on all of that and has discussed it here before. Also I think the forum debated that ridiculous myth of 50 reviews meaning something and debunked it. If you have some hard data proving that price or reviews do affect rank, would love to see it, but unless something has changed I'm pretty sure the main rankings are driven by units sold and nothing else.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Cassie Leigh said:


> Pretty sure this isn't true for most of Amazon's lists. It's a straight units sold ranking. I think there's one list where the sale price factors in but not on the others. Phoenix Sullivan is the expert on all of that and has discussed it here before. Also I think the forum debated that ridiculous myth of 50 reviews meaning something and debunked it. If you have some hard data proving that price or reviews do affect rank, would love to see it, but unless something has changed I'm pretty sure the main rankings are driven by units sold and nothing else.


You are right; it is numbers, not value. Also, the myth that reviews affect ranking is one of the reasons people have been buying fake reviews. I have come across a few newcomers who thought they had to have reviews to get ranked higher. It always seemed a daft idea to me.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

Cassie Leigh said:


> Pretty sure this isn't true for most of Amazon's lists. It's a straight units sold ranking. I think there's one list where the sale price factors in but not on the others. Phoenix Sullivan is the expert on all of that and has discussed it here before.


The poplist (the one that shows up as 'Featured' if you browse) takes price into account. Also, free downloads count at the rate of 10 downloads is counted as 1 sale, and there are differences in weighting, too. This is why a good free promo can be so effective, especially for KU books, since the main KU list hangs off the poplist.

As you say, the bestseller rankings (and the HNR which is a subset of it) are purely about sales and borrows - nothing else.


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> Sales rank = more sales = better earnings is a myth. It CAN happen that way. But not always. I just did a post in a Facebook group this week comparing 4 titles with 4 price points ($0.99, $4.99, $8.99 and $9.99) and gave their sales ranks in the .com store. I asked them to rank them by EARNINGS in the last week. Only 3 people of about 20 who guessed got the order right.
> 
> Every single sale at $9.99 is worth TWENTY sales at $0.99 as far as earnings to the author goes. So literally 2 sales at $9.99 makes you want it takes 40 sales at $0.99 to make. 40 sales at $0.99 is going to put you in the top #10,000 of books selling, 2 at $9.99 might put you in the #30,000-#200,000 rankings depending on the timing. Both authors made equal money.


On the surface, one sale at $9.99 = twenty sales at $0.99. But the $0.99 book is going to have a higher ranking by having twenty times more sales and will get more eyes on your book for longer. That's also twenty times more people that are reading your work, twenty times more people that might sign up for your mail lists and buy your future work if they like the story you have to tell. If you asked me which option I would prefer, I'd take 20 sales at $0.99 any day, since that equals more money down the road as I gain fans.

But $0.99 is a bad example since it is locked to 35% royalties. It is probably the worse price you can give a debut novel (aside from pricing your book at like ten bucks). The only reason anyone should be pricing their book is at $0.99 is because it is a short story that isn't worth the price of a candy bar or because they are in Kindle Unlimited and want maximum visibility for KU reads. If you aren't in KU, the you might as well price your book for free rather than $0.99, because the $0.35 royalties you earn on a $0.99 book are never going to get you anywhere.

$4.99 would be a been a fair price for a novel of this size. Two sales at that price would have earned him the same royalties as one $9.99 sale, and I guarantee that he would have sold at least 3-4x more than whatever he has sold. If he had enrolled in KU, he would have had 10-30x people take a chance on his book, and I'm pretty sure he could have at least broke 5k ranking. What he produced obviously wasn't perfect, but just based on the sample, I could tell that he was putting up a book that is higher quality than most debut authors put out there. If he's not getting 30 sales/borrows per day in his first 30 days, I think it's a travesty!

But I guess it's kind of after the fact now...I am rooting for this project to succeed the way it is somehow, because I want to sell my longer books at this price too


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

AuthorX said:


> On the surface, one sale at $9.99 = twenty sales at $0.99. But the $0.99 book is going to have a higher ranking by having twenty times more sales and will get more eyes on your book for longer. That's also twenty times more people that are reading your work, twenty times more people that might sign up for your mail lists and buy your future work if they like the story you have to tell. If you asked me which option I would prefer, I'd take 20 sales at $0.99 any day, since that equals more money down the road as I gain fans.
> 
> But $0.99 is a bad example since it is locked to 35% royalties. It is probably the worse price you can give a debut novel (aside from pricing your book at like ten bucks). The only reason anyone should be pricing their book is at $0.99 is because it is a short story that isn't worth the price of a candy bar or because they are in Kindle Unlimited and want maximum visibility for KU reads. If you aren't in KU, the you might as well price your book for free rather than $0.99, because the $0.35 royalties you earn on a $0.99 book are never going to get you anywhere.
> 
> ...


I launched at .99 for my first book in series. That book sold over 50,000 copies in the 9 months before I set it perma-free. The whole point was low barrier to entry and to get people to read book 2 which came out 3 weeks later at 2.99. I made over 25k in the first two months off those two books, 1 at .99, 1 at 2.99.

Never underestimate the power of sell-through and visibility from having sales on that first book. One issue with the OP's plan is that there's no second book coming for a long time if ever. Any fans that could be collected are likely going to be lost long before there's more for them. That means this single title has to go viral and sustain, which is a very difficult thing made more difficult by the high price. However, I don't think the price alone is sinking this book. I think a lot of factors will.

There's a reason most people don't (and shouldn't) publish their first novels.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> I launched at .99 for my first book in series. That book sold over 50,000 copies in the 9 months before I set it perma-free. The whole point was low barrier to entry and to get people to read book 2 which came out 3 weeks later at 2.99. I made over 25k in the first two months off those two books, 1 at .99, 1 at 2.99.
> 
> Never underestimate the power of sell-through and visibility from having sales on that first book. One issue with the OP's plan is that there's no second book coming for a long time if ever. Any fans that could be collected are likely going to be lost long before there's more for them. That means this single title has to go viral and sustain, which is a very difficult thing made more difficult by the high price. However, I don't think the price alone is sinking this book. I think a lot of factors will.
> 
> There's a reason most people don't (and shouldn't) publish their first novels.


Ditto re 99 cents. Visibility. Visibility.

I published my first novel.


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## Starbright (Mar 4, 2017)

R. T. Leone said:


> *Ah, the one-star review!*
> 
> I actually thought the review was very well written, LOL, and began taking notes to see how I could improve my writing / storytelling for future works (as I have in this thread; I've got every post made screencapped for future reference as a helpful guide in case this thread should ever go missing!). In some respects, I agree with the reviewer as far as trying to be too animated with the style of writing, but I remember having this debate with myself in the midst of writing it -- attempting to create an effective action-adventure that would hold on to the interest of a young adult who might not be a big reader, but is expecting the same experience that comes from a big budget Hollywood picture like X-MEN or THE AVENGERS. But all caps are only used sparingly in the first few chapters, and very rarely thereafter (italics are used throughout for emphasis, though I'll certainly remember to ease it up in the future).
> 
> ...


I know others are supportive of this attitude, but frankly I find it rather strange. In fact, the whole reaction to this experiment is rather strange, and the OP's flippancy makes the experiment almost worthless. If you are going to set yourself an audacious goal, you need to fight to achieve it. If you then fail, then so be it. But to simply throw out a goal ($100K), set a high price and hope for the best seems like a game, not a business. The thing is, I don't think this exercise proves much. It certainly does NOT prove that a $10 book cannot earn $100k in one year.

I was supportive of the OP from the start, and was sympathetic to his bad editing experience (although, after his explanation of the editing process I think it was more his fault than the editor's). But this latest post of his, where he says that he too spotted the plot holes in the first part of his book and that he "LOVES" that others also spotted them is ridiculous. Not everyone will read the whole book in the hope that plot holes are resolved.

But what is the most astonishing to me is when OP says "I'm just really appreciative that someone took the time to actually read the story and provide explanations for things they didn't like, and I feel that having that knowledge will ultimately lead to an improvement on my craft (something that should be really desirable for a fresh author)." This is great, but that is what beta readers and ARC copies are for. And if the OP is indeed "appreciative" of the attention a one star review gave him, because a REVIEW will lead to an improvement of his craft.

I am boggled by the attitude that someone spends all the time writing a book, has high hopes and dreams for it, but does not run it past people who read the genre before launching it on a highly ambitious plan that few other indie authors have ever tried, and even fewer (none?) have ever achieved. And who does not see it through an entire editing process.

It's a flippant attitude. I don't believe the OP ever thought he could achieve his goal, and gave up on himself. Maybe he knew the book wouldn't become a bestseller all along, and realised he had nothing to lose by launching it at $10 because he could then deflect the failure on the strategy, and not the book.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Starbright said:


> I know others are supportive of this attitude, but frankly I find it rather strange. In fact, the whole reaction to this experiment is rather strange, and the OP's flippancy makes the experiment almost worthless. If you are going to set yourself an audacious goal, you need to fight to achieve it. If you then fail, then so be it. But to simply throw out a goal ($100K), set a high price and hope for the best seems like a game, not a business. The thing is, I don't think this exercise proves much. It certainly does NOT prove that a $10 book cannot earn $100k in one year.
> 
> I was supportive of the OP from the start, and was sympathetic to his bad editing experience (although, after his explanation of the editing process I think it was more his fault than the editor's). But this latest post of his, where he says that he too spotted the plot holes in the first part of his book and that he "LOVES" that others also spotted them is ridiculous. Not everyone will read the whole book in the hope that plot holes are resolved.
> 
> ...


I think that's a bit of a harsh assessment. It's the OP's prerogative to do as he pleases with his book launch and receive criticism in any manner he sees fit - nothing wrong with that. Has no bearing on anyone else. He's chosen to share publicly here and so we discuss, but it's not as though we're invested, financially or otherwise, in the OP's business beyond superficial musings. Sure, you've taken the time to read through and follow this lengthy thread, but we do that of our own volition - I don't take umbrage with the OP for his approach - I take whatever I find of value from any contributor, including the OP, and slough the rest off. It needn't be so serious.

_Edited. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Elizabeth Ann West (Jul 11, 2011)

The idea of VISIBILITY only matter if you:
A) make enough sales at whatever price point you choose to make the Hot New Release list for your subgenre and/or the bestseller list Top 100 for your genres.
B) there ARE visibility metrics that take revenue into consideration ("Featured" aka Pop List)

Therefore, for any publisher, the question becomes what can YOU sell and at WHAT price point? 

LOOK at the "Released in 30 days" for your genre and the # of books doing a particular pricing strategy in conjunction with the range of strategies displayed in the current Hot New Release List, Bestseller List, and Pop list. If I am speaking a foreign language, there are posts and threads here all about how Amazon works. 

Then, pick a pricing strategy that works for you. The reality is there are many books that will sell the same # of books, a handful amount, at $0.99, $2.99, $4.99 and even up. The difference is the first time publisher who works hard to more or less hand sell 30 copies at $9.99 made $210, the one who did it on a $4.99 book made $105, the $2.99 author made $60 and the $0.99 author made $10.50.

Visibility doesn't pay the bills. There are a lot of genres out there that don't have the volume that allows a $0.99 price point and typically page reads to mean regular revenue. The OP's book is on this top 100 Hot New Release list... that is some visibility right there. 

Visibility is spoken like it's a sure thing... for every author who does the playbook of low price and huge ad spend to get this visibility, there are dozens who try that an fail. Same with the $9.99 pricing. 

No matter the price, you have to have a plan. Including how to recoup your costs on your first X books (could be 1 = x could be 10, whatever you can afford to outlay) in order to stay in business.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm not sure whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it has got now so there are so many books priced at 0.99 in every category, the chances of getting more visibility from that low price are minimal unless you have a massive mailing list or are prepared to spend a lot more than you will make on advertising. Elizabeth Ann seems to be talking a lot more sense given the current volume of books out there.

I think I'll go and put my prices up!


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Every indie I know making mid-six, seven, or eight figures did it using intro books in a series to lower the barriers to trying them out. (Or had a six figure marketing campaign.) Or used free days, etc 

Of course it's not a guarantee. Of course you have to do other things. Professional cover and blurb. Hooky, hooky idea and writing. And usually a lot of marketing. (I didn't do much. Annie didn't do much. Some others I know ditto. I didn't have a mailing list for two years--and there were plenty of free and 99 cent books around then, too. I just wrote more books. But most people do a lot.) And then if the book works, word of mouth and an Amazon push. 

First you have a hooky book that promises a good read and delivers. You lower the barriers to trying it out. You have other books for people to read, you keep producing them, and they deliver on the promise to the reader. 

Does that work for every book and author? Nope. Most books don't sell. After people see the book and read it, it's on the book. I'm still learning to do that part better. Maybe it'll take your sixth or tenth book to get there. I'll just say that if results mean anything, that's how I made six figures my first year. That's how everybody I know making terrific money did it, including the ones who started recently. Some people do it at 2.99 and with KU now. Also viable.

But hey, she says passive aggressively. What do I know. And pricing in certain niches can certainly follow a different path. If you write nonfiction, my advice is terrible. My advice is for people in genres that can support sales of hundreds of thousands of copies of a book, because that's how you make that kind of really good money.


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## Sarah Shaw (Feb 14, 2015)

Elizabeth Ann West said:


> LOOK at the "Released in 30 days" for your genre and the # of books doing a particular pricing strategy in conjunction with the range of strategies displayed in the current Hot New Release List, Bestseller List, and Pop list. If I am speaking a foreign language, there are posts and threads here all about how Amazon works.
> 
> Then, pick a pricing strategy that works for you. The reality is there are many books that will sell the same # of books, a handful amount, at $0.99, $2.99, $4.99 and even up. The difference is the first time publisher who works hard to more or less hand sell 30 copies at $9.99 made $210, the one who did it on a $4.99 book made $105, the $2.99 author made $60 and the $0.99 author made $10.50.
> ...
> No matter the price, you have to have a plan. Including how to recoup your costs on your first X books (could be 1 = x could be 10, whatever you can afford to outlay) in order to stay in business.


Since I'm still trying to figure out my own plan I found this very useful advice. I went to look at the releases for historical fiction in the last 30 days, as well as best sellers and found that $4.99 was the dominant price for both. There were a few higher priced ones from the big trad publishers and lower priced ones (.99 to $2.99), but those were almost exclusively in certain niches- Regencies and Westerns.

Whatever the outcome for the OP, this has been a great thread for bringing out some heavy hitters with very different marketing and pricing strategies. Finding it all fascinating!


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

I think the big problem with indie publishing is this: for years, the only way books got published was via traditional publishing houses. All we, the public, saw was a book on the table at the bookstore. Or on the shelf. Maybe advertised in a newspaper. We found our books via friends and family or through browsing the shelves at a library or book store. We didn't see behind the curtains to the little man pulling levers and tooting horns. The whole edifice of traditional print publishing was a black hole. All the selection, editing, marketing, etc. was opaque to us.

So, there are some naive debut authors who write a book and think that if they publish it on Amazon, that's all they need to do.

No, it ain't. 

Sure, there may be a vanishingly few debut novels that are not edited, with a hand-made cover, that hit the jackpot and sell $100K in the release year. They are the accidental successes. You can probably count them on one hand.

Most successes are more deliberate. They may involve some knowledge of genre (but not necessarily studied -- could be years of reading in that genre) and some degree of craft skill (either through taking classes in writing, belonging to workshops, writing fan fiction or non-fiction in their day job), some modicum of editing, a genre-appropriate cover, hooky blurb, and a price that is not a barrier to the potential customer. 

All the stuff that trad publishing used to do is now up to us. (yes, I know I know trad published authors had to do marketing etc...) Now, WE AUTHORS have to be publishers and take care of all that is involved in publishing a book from concept to delivery. 

Not everyone knows this. They either learn or vanish.

We now have almost a full decade of indie publishing and many of us have figured much of this out. Many of us are willing to share our experiences so others can learn from us, either free or via paid courses, like Mark Dawson's. 

The smart aspiring author would be wise to study all the advice given on this forum and others and arm themselves, gird their publishing loins, and be as prepared as possible when they release their first book. I just wish there was a flashing light that every aspiring author could see that directed them to posts like the OP with results so that they would avoid making the same old mistakes the rest of us have made, sometimes painfully.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 18, 2015)

sela said:


> I think the big problem with indie publishing is this: for years, the only way books got published was via traditional publishing houses. All we, the public, saw was a book on the table at the bookstore. Or on the shelf. Maybe advertised in a newspaper. We found our books via friends and family or through browsing the shelves at a library or book store. We didn't see behind the curtains to the little man pulling levers and tooting horns. The whole edifice of traditional print publishing was a black hole. All the selection, editing, marketing, etc. was opaque to us.
> 
> So, there are some naive debut authors who write a book and think that if they publish it on Amazon, that's all they need to do.
> 
> ...


The problem with a lot of aspiring writers isn't just the publishing; it's the writing, too.

We have all these characters and stories and characters and emotions running around inside their head, and when new authors put them on paper, they don't realize how much their perception of their work is a function of what's already inside them. Unfortunately, the readers only have what's on the page. Too many newbies don't quite understand that they have to learn how to use words to translate all those characters and stories and characters and emotions to the reader.

I'm a registered engineer. My college courses were hard, lots of sleepless nights spent figuring out solutions to problems involving differential equations. I have to say that trying to learn how to write fiction well is as difficult.

It just seems like a lot of people come into it thinking it's easy.

Or ... maybe ... I'm just missing something and should stick to equations


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> The problem with a lot of aspiring writers isn't just the publishing; it's the writing, too.
> 
> We have all these characters and stories and characters and emotions running around inside their head, and when new authors put them on paper, they don't realize how much their perception of their work is a function of what's already inside them. Unfortunately, the readers only have what's on the page. Too many newbies don't quite understand that they have to learn how to use words to translate all those characters and stories and characters and emotions to the reader.
> 
> ...


About forty years ago, when I thought of a good idea for a novel, I wrote it. I had all the important bits that I knew I wanted in my novel and it didn't take nearly as long to write as I had thought. In total it came to about eight pages! I knew that couldn't be right, because all the books on my shelves were a lot, lot longer than that. So I sat down and re-read a few of them, this time studying how each sentence was put together. What a shock!

I think there are too many who do what I did, but instead of realising it's not right, they just publish it anyway.


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## Berries (Feb 5, 2015)

Here's my two cents for what it's worth. I think the 99 cent price point is largely dependent on genre. I think genre is one of the most important things to keep in mind whenever we are talking about promotional efforts and selling copies. Readers within different genres are VERY different folks. Genre is important and so is whether or not you write in a series. Most of the 99 cents advice is applicable to those group of readers. 

I write in nonfiction under another pen name and almost nothing of the advice I've read besides blurb, covers, editing, etc. applies when it comes to nonfiction. Last year, I brought in 40K in nonfiction sales. I've recently started writing psychological thrillers and again, most thrillers are not in a series unless it's crime fiction which is an entirely different genre. Many of the bestsellers are priced at 99 cents, but there's an equal share that aren't. My next work that is currently on pre-order is priced at 4.99. So far, I am receiving about the same number of pre-orders that I did on Phantom Limb and Phantom Limb was @ 2.99 while it was on pre-order. I plan on toying with pricing until I reach the sweet point for both me and my readers.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2017)

How would a trad publisher treat an unknown author?
"We want the book to have visibility, so let's give away 100,000 copies, or only charge 99 cents."
Nope.
That's not what they did with Gone With the Wind. Which would have cost the publisher a lot of money because Margaret had no intention of writing a second book.
James Jones' From Here To Eternity was a first book by an unknown author.
Ditto Thomas Wolfe and Look Homeward, Angel.
And Judith Krantz with Scruples.
The list goes on and on.

Perhaps the difference with indies is that we don't shell out a lot of up-front money to publish our first ebook.
Pardon me, but a decent cover, office supplies, software, etc., can stretch a beginner's budget. The unknown writer does have SOME money on the line.
What about the production time? Wish I could claim minimum wage for that.
We do have money and time invested. I don't think we should give away our product right off the bat.
Perhaps a sale, every now and then.

But I have to admit, that there are many writers here who have become very successful with the free/99-cent approach.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Okey Dokey said:


> How would a trad publisher treat an unknown author?
> "We want the book to have visibility, so let's give away 100,000 copies, or only charge 99 cents."
> Nope.
> That's not what they did with Gone With the Wind. Which would have cost the publisher a lot of money because Margaret had no intention of writing a second book.
> ...


It's not about how much you've spent.

It's not about what tradpub publishers charge for books with marketing budgets and bookstore placement and PR campaigns.

It's about what price gives you the highest net income. And your book is worth what a reader thinks it's worth. There's no charge by the hour. Some authors spend five years laboring on their opus, and it sells 10 copies. Five to their mom. Others can write a novel in two weeks and have it hit the top 100 of Amazon at $2.99, earning them tens of thousands of dollars. There's no "fair."

I totally agree with what somebody said above, and in fact, it's also what I said on Page 2 or 3. The right price depends on your genre and your strategy. In NA and erom and paranormal genres, lots and lots and lots of books are 99 cents and short. Some will be $2.99. In my genres, especially romantic suspense, prices tend to be a little higher. But they're still on the low side, because romance readers are voracious, therefore price-sensitive. They're more likely to be in KU. They're more likely to be BookBub subscribers. They're more likely to want to try out a new author for free or cheap. I price at $4.99. That's at the high end for my genre. That's where Montlake prices also. The giant indies in my genre price at $5.99, some of them. Many tradpubs also price their NEW releases at . . . 4.99-6.99, unless the author's a giant.

If you're writing in another genre, prices may well be higher. You may well do better sending a quality signal with a higher price (assuming your work and its presentation stand up to that.)

Study your genre. Create your strategy. Try it, and if it doesn't work, tweak it. There are very few set rules. Some people succeed mightily with all 99-cent books and KU. They get huge bonuses and rake it in. Some of the top sellers in romance and cozies keep their prices at $2.99 and go for volume--and again, bonuses. Since my audience isn't as "mass" as some in my genre and tends to read other things besides romance, and since I write a certain type of book (longer, with more women's fiction elements in it), I price at $4.99. Different strategies. Different strokes.

But it's never about what you deserve. It's never about payment for your time or your investment. Often just the opposite. The best genre writers are often very fast. They've practiced. They know how to do it. They don't waste much effort.


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Okey Dokey said:


> How would a trad publisher treat an unknown author?
> "We want the book to have visibility, so let's give away 100,000 copies, or only charge 99 cents."
> Nope.
> That's not what they did with Gone With the Wind. Which would have cost the publisher a lot of money because Margaret had no intention of writing a second book.
> ...


I'm not being flippant, I say this with respect, but the examples you adduce have no bearing whatever on the current market in either trad or indie. There isn't a single example published within my lifetime and, with the exception of Scruples by Krantz, there is not a single example within the life of anyone who isn't eligible for social security.

Industry dynamics change. The culture changes. Technology changes the media landscape and sets new baselines and expectations.
And, yes, trad publishers do offer, in many cases, books (albeit more narrowly with a more targeted strategy) and author time (a commodity surely) for free to cultivate interest.

With consideration for indie's more constrained resources, more limited access to media, and a slightly different market (appetites and expectations for release schedules and so on), some of us avail ourselves of one of the best avenues for getting those first eyes on the page. Perfectly fine that many choose other routes, of course.


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## J. Tanner (Aug 22, 2011)

Patrick Urban said:


> I'm not being flippant, I say this with respect, but the examples you adduce have no bearing whatever on the current market in either trad or indie. There isn't a single example published within my lifetime and, with the exception of Scruples by Krantz, there is not a single example within the life of anyone who isn't eligible for social security.


It doesn't take a lot of thought to update that list to more contemporary authors. How about Fight Club, The Kite Runner, The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, and the The Help for the last 20 years or so?

(I'm not taking a position on either argument, but discounting it based on the examples doesn't seem fair.)


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

J. Tanner said:


> It doesn't take a lot of thought to update that list to more contemporary authors. How about Fight Club, The Kite Runner, The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, and the The Help for the last 20 years or so?
> 
> (I'm not taking a position on either argument, but discounting it based on the examples doesn't seem fair.)


Except in your contemporary examples, the publishing experience departed quite a bit from that of the earlier examples. The contemporary examples make quite a different point.


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## sela (Nov 2, 2014)

Okey Dokey said:


> How would a trad publisher treat an unknown author?
> "We want the book to have visibility, so let's give away 100,000 copies, or only charge 99 cents."
> Nope.
> That's not what they did with Gone With the Wind. Which would have cost the publisher a lot of money because Margaret had no intention of writing a second book.
> ...


If the publisher thinks they have a winner, they will spend money on the launch and on publicity. That would be the equivalent of an indie pricing at 99c or giving books away for free. There is no way for example that indies should charge $17.99 for an eBook despite the fact that trad publishers do. Why? We don't have the same overhead. So we shouldn't do what trad publishers do. We should do what works for our different business model. Indies have low overhead compared to trad publishers pushing a print book.

Different business models. Different tactics as a consequence.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2017)

As a previous poster stated, writing fiction is hard. Just because your mom told you that a story you wrote when you were a teenager was brilliant, doesn't mean you are a good writer. It means your mother loves you. Even if you have a flare for it, writing is a skill. Skills need to be developed. There are ways other than a formal education to do this. In fact, most of what I know comes from reading, suffering through editing, and not getting butt hurt when people criticize me. When I started out, I sucked; then became a a so-so writer; worked my way into being a decent writer; now I'm trying my best to become a good writer. I doubt I'll ever consider myself great. I have limits. 
It's not easy to hear that you suck. Believe me, I know all too well what that feels like. But it's crucial you do. Anne Bellet, for example, is in my estimation, a very talented writer. But I would bet my house that once upon a time, she sucked. I would also bet someone told her this, flat out. The same goes for Jana and Rosalind. I know this because they became good writers. They took that harsh criticism and allowed it to fuel their drive and attain their goals. Why do you think professional writers aren't bothered as much by negative reviews? We've heard it a thousand times. That's why.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

This_Way_Down said:


> As a previous poster stated, writing fiction is hard. Just because your mom told you that a story you wrote when you were a teenager was brilliant, doesn't mean you are a good writer. It means your mother loves you. Even if you have a flare for it, writing is a skill. Skills need to be developed. There are ways other than a formal education to do this. In fact, most of what I know comes from reading, suffering through editing, and not getting butt hurt when people criticize me. When I started out, I sucked; then became a a so-so writer; worked my way into being a decent writer; now I'm trying my best to become a good writer. I doubt I'll ever consider myself great. I have limits.
> It's not easy to hear that you suck. Believe me, I know all too well what that feels like. But it's crucial you do. Anne Bellet, for example, is in my estimation, a very talented writer. But I would bet my house that once upon a time, she sucked. I would also bet someone told her this, flat out. The same goes for Jana and Rosalind. I know this because they became good writers. They took that harsh criticism and allowed it to fuel their drive and attain their goals. Why do you think professional writers aren't bothered as much by negative reviews? We've heard it a thousand times. That's why.


I have 5 novels and about 30ish short stories that will never see light of day cause they were practice. I sucked, but I knew it enough to get help and feedback. I still attend workshops etc. I'm at one right now


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2017)

Annie B said:


> I have 5 novels and about 30ish short stories that will never see light of day cause they were practice. I sucked, but I knew it enough to get help and feedback. I still attend workshops etc. I'm at one right now


I just read your books and try to rip off prose.  Seriously, I do that a lot. I read mostly with the intent of learning new ways to turn a phrase or frame dialogue. Particularly when I feel my writing is becoming stale and repetitive. I've even read my own work and ran across things I used to do that I liked, and for some reason stopped. My next thing is to read some romance novels so I can improve my love scenes.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

When I click on new posts in this thread, it always skips past the first two new posts, and I have to scroll up. Anyone else?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

crow.bar.beer said:


> When I click on new posts in this thread, it always skips past the first two new posts, and I have to scroll up. Anyone else?


Huh. It just did that to me, too. How totally weird.

I'll ask the mods who actually know stuff.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

crow.bar.beer said:


> When I click on new posts in this thread, it always skips past the first two new posts, and I have to scroll up. Anyone else?


It does that to me as well, but not just on this thread.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Doglover said:


> It does that to me as well, but not just on this thread.


Do all threads do it, or just some?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

This_Way_Down said:


> As a previous poster stated, writing fiction is hard. Just because your mom told you that a story you wrote when you were a teenager was brilliant, doesn't mean you are a good writer. It means your mother loves you. Even if you have a flare for it, writing is a skill. Skills need to be developed. There are ways other than a formal education to do this. In fact, most of what I know comes from reading, suffering through editing, and not getting butt hurt when people criticize me. When I started out, I sucked; then became a a so-so writer; worked my way into being a decent writer; now I'm trying my best to become a good writer. I doubt I'll ever consider myself great. I have limits.
> It's not easy to hear that you suck. Believe me, I know all too well what that feels like. But it's crucial you do. Anne Bellet, for example, is in my estimation, a very talented writer. But I would bet my house that once upon a time, she sucked. I would also bet someone told her this, flat out. The same goes for Jana and Rosalind. I know this because they became good writers. They took that harsh criticism and allowed it to fuel their drive and attain their goals. Why do you think professional writers aren't bothered as much by negative reviews? We've heard it a thousand times. That's why.


Nice of you to say, but I did publish my first fiction.  It's still right there. I started writing it, my first-ever story, and it changed my life. Two weeks later, I'd given notice at my job and become a full-time writer. I'm like the object lesson of What Not To Do, except that it magically worked. Sometimes it does. Bad thing to count on, though. As it also turned out, I got extremely sick a few months later, and couldn't have worked anyway, so there you go.

I re-edited all my other first 7 books after I'd learned more, but I couldn't do that first one as it was already out in German and audio. I've done all my learning out in the open, in public view, which hasn't always been comfortable. I will say that I had 10 years under my belt as a copywriter, among other things, which was fantastic training for fiction.

I DID get super upset at my first 1-star review. Those bad reviews, which didn't come for quite a while, were the first time somebody told me my work sucked. You're right--it hurt. I remember when my first book was on a huge romance podcast. I was so excited. I'd sold some tens of thousands of copies of it, I think, at the time. And then the host said, "As a romance, it's abysmal." I cried. I did read all those reviews, though, and learned from them. I hope she wouldn't think I'm quite so abysmal now. 

Oddly, that very first book, warts and all, got an Audie nomination, and is still the clear winner if I ask readers, "Which is your favorite of my books?" And I've written 22 now. The reason? The idea of it, the hook, and the hero. I also had a strong voice, a voice some people loved and some hated.

I'm not sorry I did it the way I did. I loved writing those first three books--they were pure pleasure--and they've sold very well. It's been an amazing adventure doing it this way. But I've sure worked hard to get better since I started, to challenge myself, and that gives me immense satisfaction.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Becca Mills said:


> Do all threads do it, or just some?


Not sure. I'll pay more attention next time.


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## Mindflutters (Apr 29, 2015)

Chrissy said:


> I wish you a great deal of luck and much success.
> 
> One thing I learned on Oprah years ago. _Don't accept no from people who don't have the power to say yes._
> 
> ...


THIS!!

Please update us on how it goes!


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

Okey Dokey said:


> How would a trad publisher treat an unknown author?
> "We want the book to have visibility, so let's give away 100,000 copies, or only charge 99 cents."
> Nope.
> That's not what they did with Gone With the Wind. Which would have cost the publisher a lot of money because Margaret had no intention of writing a second book.
> ...


This.

I agree. Just because we're indies doesn't mean our time or books are worthless or that we don't have expenses.

As for those who made money at 99cents--most of them did it in previous years. Things change all the time.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

I've published every book I've ever written too. Edits are marvelous things.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Becca Mills said:


> Do all threads do it, or just some?


For me it only seems to be this thread. My guess is two posts were outright deleted instead of edited, and it somehow threw a wrench in how the message number associated with each post gets tallied.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Linda_B said:


> This.
> 
> I agree. Just because we're indies doesn't mean our time or books are worthless or that we don't have expenses.
> 
> As for those who made money at 99cents--most of them did it in previous years. Things change all the time.


Not sure why I'm bothering, but I will anyway.

You don't make money at 99 cents. You use 99 cents (or free) as a funnel to get people to try out your books. That still works, trust me--IF that first book delivers.

KU is somewhat the same--but a 99-cent first book is a way to get people who aren't in KU to try your stuff.

Pricing should have nothing to do with your costs, your emotions, your worth, your books' worth. The right pricing strategy (because you don't price one book in a vacuum) is the one where your net income is highest. Period. Unless you don't care about that, and you're not publishing to make money. In which case--you can do whatever you want. Or you can just do whatever you want anyway. Your books, your career. But if you want to make money--put on your business hat when you think about your pricing/marketing strategy.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

What does it matter what a book sells for, anyway? The goal is readers and income. Nothing else.

And if someone gave me the option of selling 10,000,000 copies at an average royalty of 1 cent per, or selling 10,000 at $10 royalty earned per book, I'd be a fool not to take the greater number of readers.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

crow.bar.beer said:


> For me it only seems to be this thread. My guess is two posts were outright deleted instead of edited, and it somehow threw a wrench in how the message number associated with each post gets tallied.


Hmm. It could have something to do with deleted posts, but there've been waaaay more than two of those. Hopefully Ann and Betsy will be able to figure it out. One does want the "new" link to work properly!


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Linda_B said:


> This.
> 
> I agree. Just because we're indies doesn't mean our time or books are worthless or that we don't have expenses.
> 
> As for those who made money at 99cents--most of them did it in previous years. Things change all the time.


Think about the free/$0.99 like the samples people in food courts giveaway on toothpicks.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

MonkishScribe said:


> What does it matter what a book sells for, anyway? The goal is readers and income. Nothing else.


I think it comes down to whether an author understands that $0.99 is a marketing strategy as opposed to a reflection of a given work's value.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Rosalind J said:


> You don't make money at 99 cents. You use 99 cents (or free) as a funnel to get people to try out your books. That still works, trust me--*IF that first book delivers.*


I bolded this, Rosalind, because, as a reader, I think it's pretty crucial and I'm not sure that people reading here always appreciate it.

That 99 cent book has got to be something that's going to make me not just read to the end, but read to the end and say, "wow, I want to read more by this person."

'Cause, here's the thing: If that first book is only o.k. or, worse, I don't like it, I'm not going on to buy more at any price.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Ann in Arlington said:


> I bolded this, Rosalind, because, as a reader, I think it's pretty crucial and I'm not sure that people reading here always appreciate it.
> 
> That 99 cent book has got to be something that's going to make me not just read to the end, but read to the end and say, "wow, I want to read more by this person."
> 
> 'Cause, here's the thing: If that first book is only o.k. or, worse, I don't like it, I'm not going on to buy more at any price.


I recently downloaded a free book which was the first in a series. I thought it was great and decided to buy the rest of the series, about six books I think. I bought the next one and was I disappointed? It was so boring, full of fillers. So, that first one does have to be good, but it also needs to lead to the others that are equally good.


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## Nathalie Aynie (Nov 24, 2013)

crow.bar.beer said:


> When I click on new posts in this thread, it always skips past the first two new posts, and I have to scroll up. Anyone else?


Me too, it's been a few days.



Becca Mills said:


> Do all threads do it, or just some?


All the ones I've checked.

I've also got a certificate security problem, that I passed on to Betsy.


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

Nathalie Aynie said:


> Me too, it's been a few days.
> 
> All the ones I've checked.
> 
> I've also got a certificate security problem, that I passed on to Betsy.


Thanks for the info, Nathalie!


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## storyteller (Feb 3, 2014)

Rosalind J said:


> Nice of you to say, but I did publish my first fiction.  It's still right there. I started writing it, my first-ever story, and it changed my life. Two weeks later, I'd given notice at my job and become a full-time writer. I'm like the object lesson of What Not To Do, except that it magically worked. Sometimes it does. Bad thing to count on, though. As it also turned out, I got extremely sick a few months later, and couldn't have worked anyway, so there you go.
> 
> I re-edited all my other first 7 books after I'd learned more, but I couldn't do that first one as it was already out in German and audio. I've done all my learning out in the open, in public view, which hasn't always been comfortable. I will say that I had 10 years under my belt as a copywriter, among other things, which was fantastic training for fiction.
> 
> ...


In a completely different genre, another author did much the same, self-publishing his first fiction. His first book was, well, quite rough around the edges, but the strength of the story carried it through to a thriving publishing career and he's also improved in real time, in public, with each new release. So it's not necessarily something a person with a strong story should disregard as an option. People do like a good story and the rest usually follows if you already have that part locked down.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

storyteller said:


> In a completely different genre, another author did much the same, self-publishing his first fiction. His first book was, well, quite rough around the edges, but the strength of the story carried it through to a thriving publishing career and he's also improved in real time, in public, with each new release. So it's not necessarily something a person with a strong story should disregard as an option. People do like a good story and the rest usually follows if you already have that part locked down.


In hindsight, there's a lot to be said for NOT having the first book be rough. Looking back, I'd almost certainly have been better off to have worked with a developmental editor. My book wasn't really very "rough" in a technical sense, but I could certainly have improved the character development. I am fortunate that I have many series and that almost all the books stand alone and I can promote any. (All deliberate choices.) I did s big promo 3 months ago on Book 3 of that first series, a book written some months in when I was a better writer, and it really pushed the whole series.

Still, it would have been better not to have tossed those three gangly puppies out there without some grooming. But you don't know what you don't know, and I learned from the reactions.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

I just finished reading Invinciman. Great job OP. The story is solid. The execution is a bit newbie. I would advice you to take a few weekends and edit the story chapter by chapter. The story is too heavy, too dense, too much info all at once. It needs more air. It needs to breathe. Overall good job. My advice is also to put it in KU and to lower the price to $2.99 to get more visibility.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

WriterSongwriter said:


> I just finished reading Invinciman. Great job OP. The story is solid. The execution is a bit newbie. I would advice you to take a few weekends and edit the story chapter by chapter. The story is too heavy, too dense, too much info all at once. It needs more air. It needs to breathe. Overall good job. My advice is also to put it in KU and to lower the price to $2.99 to get more visibility.


Thanks for reading the book! I actually just concluded an edit with the great Tom Shutt of Main Line Editing (a fellow KBoarder), and uploaded the final polished version on KDP / Pronoun a few hours ago, haha. It is indeed a complex story for an originally targeted young adult audience, which is why the pace is so quick. Ideally, it should've been around 150,000 words instead of the 100K version it is now, but that would've been much for a young adult book (but then maybe I shouldn't have targeted young adults to begin with). Something to think about moving forward. Appreciate the thoughts and advice!


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Eugene Kirk said:


> Think about the free/$0.99 like the samples people in food courts giveaway on toothpicks.


One of the things I miss, now that I do most of my shopping at Amazon, is the toothpick ladies at B J's Wholesale Club. I generally counted on getting my lunch that way. I never bought any of the stuff being sampled -- did you? did anyone?


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## Becca Mills (Apr 27, 2012)

notjohn said:


> One of the things I miss, now that I do most of my shopping at Amazon, is the toothpick ladies at B J's Wholesale Club. I generally counted on getting my lunch that way. I never bought any of the stuff being sampled -- did you? did anyone?


Definitely, but only if I like the product and it's within the realm of things I'm interested in buying (not a 20-pound bag of candy, or something). I suspect grocery chains are willing to pay employees to staff those tables because offering samples actually works. It would be easy enough for stores to track whether sales rise when they offer samples.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I published my first novel.


I wish I could have done so! Sadly, what with manual typewriters, fragile "copy paper," and moving a lot from country to country and city to town, I lost all those typescripts.

No doubt I would have rewritten them in later life. I did that with my published novels when I decided to go the self-publishing route, eight or ten years BK (before Kindle).


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## Gentleman Zombie (May 30, 2011)

Rosalind J said:


> Not sure why I'm bothering, but I will anyway.
> 
> *You don't make money at 99 cents. You use 99 cents (or free) as a funnel to get people to try out your books. That still works, trust me--IF that first book delivers.*
> 
> KU is somewhat the same--but a 99-cent first book is a way to get people who aren't in KU to try your stuff.


Yup. This why people give away *the first book* at .99 cents or free. In other words, very few people make any money off just one book. They usually have a series of at least three before any real profit rolls in. The first book in that series is usually perma-free or low cost.

That being said, there are some very successful indies who never price below $2.99. What works for one person may not work for another. Everyone is free to experiment - which is something I think we've lost as a community. The willingness to experiment and try new things.


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

Ann in Arlington said:


> That still works, trust me--


Ha! Whenever anyone says "trust me", I run far, far away.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> Yup. This why people give away *the first book* at .99 cents or free. In other words, very few people make any money off just one book. They usually have a series of at least three before any real profit rolls in. The first book in that series is usually perma-free or low cost.
> 
> That being said, there are some very successful indies who never price below $2.99. What works for one person may not work for another. Everyone is free to experiment - which is something I think we've lost as a community. The willingness to experiment and try new things.


I don't have anything priced below 2.99, and only two books of 22 at that price. Nineteen of my books are 4.99. But I didn't start out priced there. I hit big with a 99 cent book and three others at 3.99 each. But people have different markets and strategies. I'm in contemporary romance which is a very different animal from some other genres.

What people are talking about here are general best practices based on five or six years of data. One such practice is "Price for your genre."


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## anniejocoby (Aug 11, 2013)

notjohn said:


> One of the things I miss, now that I do most of my shopping at Amazon, is the toothpick ladies at B J's Wholesale Club. I generally counted on getting my lunch that way. I never bought any of the stuff being sampled -- did you? did anyone?


Oh, yeah. I discovered this amazing almond dip called bitchin sauce by taking samples at the local Costco. I buy it every time it comes around - I have a big tub of it right now. I've also bought hot wings after trying them at Costco too. So the samples work - at least they do for me!


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

Gentleman Zombie said:


> Yup. This why people give away the first book at .99 cents or free. In other words, very few people make any money off just one book. They usually have a series of at least three before any real profit rolls in. The first book in that series is usually perma-free or low cost.
> 
> That being said, there are some very successful indies who never price below $2.99. *What works for one person may not work for another. Everyone is free to experiment - which is something I think we've lost as a community. The willingness to experiment and try new things.*


Yes, what's bolded.

The success of a few has become dogma here. Those who have succeeded with "The Way" shout down anyone who dares to think differently.
Not only a pity, but stagnation and bad for everyone.

I'm thankful for the Ignore list.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Linda_B said:


> The success of a few has become dogma here. Those who have succeeded with "The Way" shout down anyone who dares to think differently.
> Not only a pity, but stagnation and bad for everyone.


You regularly assert this.

Evidence (links) or it didn't happen.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Anarchist said:


> You regularly assert this.
> 
> Evidence (links) or it didn't happen.


I've certainly seen no sign of it.


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## Contrarian (Oct 12, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> You regularly assert this.
> 
> Evidence (links) or it didn't happen.


I don't have to prove anything to you, and I will say what I please. Those who espouse The Way keep doing so. I suppose you're in their camp, that's why you want "proof". And it does happen, repeatedly. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

But, as a sop, there are multiple instances in this thread alone. Or haven't you read all the posts? You probably haven't.

If you don't like what I say, put me on your Ignore list. I've put you on mine.

I'm done with this thread.

Best of luck to the OP, and those of you who want to argue, find someone else to vent your spleen on.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Linda_B said:


> Ha! Whenever anyone says "trust me", I run far, far away.


That was a quote by me.

You're right. I said "trust me" (that lower-priced or free funnels still work--although not for every book, because most books don't sell much at whatever price) because I have a secret agenda to lead people astray. You've caught me. I'm actually trying to sell my $999 course on How to Be A Bestselling Author.* What can I say. A girl's got to eat.

There's no one answer. There are, however, "best practices" in indie publishing that we can see after 5 or 6 good years in this. That doesn't mean one way will work for everybody. I, for example, don't do tons of things that are agreed upon by most as "best practices." I write too long and too weirdly. I write too slowly. I write in different subgenres. I have a year between books in one series. I'm not wide. I don't cross-promote. I don't write to market in the sense of studying genres and trends. I've only had a permafree once, and I only discount the first book in one out of five series.

I've been lucky enough to have good success anyway. It's certainly possible that I would have had much more success if I'd done some or all of the above things differently. I didn't, for my own reasons. Everybody has their own reasons. People have different strategies. And genres and subgenres and even authors and books are different.

Do what you want. But when experienced people see a strategy that seems highly unlikely to succeed, in a post where somebody is asking for feedback--they are likely to point out the potential pitfalls. Perhaps because they too made that mistake early on. Perhaps because with the benefit of 20 years of success in publishing, knowledge of the market, whatever, the mistake seems glaringly obvious to them.

Can somebody go ahead and try anyway? You bet. Do it your way, forge your own path, make your own mistakes. You may have something special enough that you will succeed beyond your dreams in spite of those weird things you did. More likely not, but what the heck. Your life. Your book. Your choice.

*I have no course.


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

notjohn said:


> One of the things I miss, now that I do most of my shopping at Amazon, is the toothpick ladies at B J's Wholesale Club. I generally counted on getting my lunch that way. I never bought any of the stuff being sampled -- did you? did anyone?


Um, always! That's how I became addicted to pickled okra. I certainly wouldn't have paid to sample it myself before getting a free taste.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Linda_B said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you, and I will say what I please. Those who espouse The Way keep doing so. I suppose you're in their camp, that's why you want "proof". And it does happen, repeatedly.
> 
> But, as a sop, there are multiple instances in this thread alone. Or haven't you read all of the posts?


It's one thing to "espouse." It's another to shout down conflicting views.

You asserted the latter occurs on a regular basis. Again, links or it didn't happen.



Linda_B said:


> If you don't like what I say, put me on your Ignore list. I've put you on mine.


That's _one_ way to avoid having to back up your assertions with proof.

Keep winning, Linda.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, let's stop making comments about each other and stay on topic.  I'm going to be reviewing the last bit of conversation.  Posts may be edited or removed.  PM me if you have questions.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Amanda M. Lee said:


> That's how I became addicted to pickled okra.


I think I just threw up a bit in my mouth 

I tried to cook okra once...it end up a slimy green mess that got tossed in the garbage after a quick taste-but I'm told it's good for you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, if I have to intervene in a fight between pro-okra and anti-okra members, the ban hammer is gonna fall...  Just sayin'.

Betsy


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## Amanda M. Lee (Jun 3, 2014)

Pickled okra is awesome. I dip it in tomato juice as a snack.


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## Word Fan (Apr 15, 2015)

MKK said:


> I tried to cook okra once... it end up a slimy green mess that got tossed in the garbage after a quick taste ~ but I'm told it's good for you.


That's because Yankees (and you other Northerners) don't know how to cook it!


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

Linda_B said:


> Those who espouse The Way keep doing so. I suppose you're in their camp, that's why you want "proof". And it does happen, repeatedly.


For someone who is relatively new and hasn't been on the k-boards for long, I'm curious how you've come to that conclusion. I see a variety of opinions expressed in most threads. Like any forum there are tides of opinions, it might trend one way one month and then swing to another the next. Perhaps if you hung around here for longer you would see that there is no "one way".


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## MKK (Jun 9, 2015)

Word Fan said:


> That's because Yankees (and you other Northerners) don't know how to cook it!


I guess I have to agree. At least, I don't/didn't have clue about how to cook it. Maybe some day I'll try it again. I had such high hopes.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

oakwood said:


>


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2017)

An earlier post claimed that certain writers who have gained traction and are selling books shout down those would do not agree with their methods. I think it was referred to as The Way. You might have noticed that there are far fewer best selling indies posting here. Or like me, they prefer not to say who they are. The reason for this is that they were getting shouted down at every turn. Eventually, they became frustrated and stopped trying to help. 
The Way is nothing more than tried and true methods practiced by those who sell books in large numbers. There are variations on this. And sometimes genre requires that the author make adjustments. But it's more or less the same. If you were a professional baseball player and you tried to teach a rookie to hit, then someone playing on the local softball team told you how wrong you are, you might get irritated. 
No one make claims of having a universal solution. And there are other methods for success. But whensomeone who makes a six figure income writing books says something is either a good or a bad idea, they know what they're talking about. Unless you can make the same claim with your own career, arguing only makes you look foolish. Moreover, it muddies the water for writers who genuinely want professional advice. 
Most of us who have reached a certain place have our own groups where we discuss the challenges we face. The members are usually other best sellers, professional editors, etc.And they are typically closed groups. Here it is different. You have open access. But when the writers making a living get shouted down and told they're being elitist, they stop trying. And then all you're left with is the inexperienced and those who have yet to find a way to get the ball rolling.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm _not_ a best seller. I enjoy not having the pressure of being a best seller, it means I can write what I love instead of forcing marketable books out that kill my soul.

Right now I'm changing the way people buy books. I'm skipping through the bluebells being "mindful". Mindfulness is THE WAY, it means people will find my books through the power of my positive thoughts.

Everyone selling more than me just got lucky - that's the secret. That's why I'm spending today searching for a four leaf clover and considering the beauty of blossom instead of writing the next book.

Wish me luck!


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

This_Way_Down said:


> An earlier post claimed that certain writers who have gained traction and are selling books shout down those would do not agree with their methods. I think it was referred to as The Way. You might have noticed that there are far fewer best selling indies posting here. Or like me, they prefer not to say who they are. The reason for this is that they were getting shouted down at every turn. Eventually, they became frustrated and stopped trying to help.
> The Way is nothing more than tried and true methods practiced by those who sell books in large numbers. There are variations on this. And sometimes genre requires that the author make adjustments. But it's more or less the same. If you were a professional baseball player and you tried to teach a rookie to hit, then someone playing on the local softball team told you how wrong you are, you might get irritated.
> No one make claims of having a universal solution. And there are other methods for success. But whensomeone who makes a six figure income writing books says something is either a good or a bad idea, they know what they're talking about. Unless you can make the same claim with your own career, arguing only makes you look foolish. Moreover, it muddies the water for writers who genuinely want professional advice.
> Most of us who have reached a certain place have our own groups where we discuss the challenges we face. The members are usually other best sellers, professional editors, etc.And they are typically closed groups. Here it is different. You have open access. But when the writers making a living get shouted down and told they're being elitist, they stop trying. And then all you're left with is the inexperienced and those who have yet to find a way to get the ball rolling.


QFT

I've seen it happen, over and over here. Every so often we'll get a thread asking where the "old" members have gone. They've gone to private groups where they can be serious about what they're doing without having to defend it to people who have no idea how indie publishing has changed and grown.

Ten years ago, we didn't know what would work, if anything would. Gosh, it was so new! But there were people who were willing to try new things, make mistakes, start over, find something else to try. Many of us wondered if we'd ever be able to charge more than .99 for a book, if readers would be willing to take a chance on a book that wasn't from a "real" publisher. Now we have people who know what they're doing trying to save a new author from making mistakes they don't have to make. And the usual response: ohaigudideer! Try it, you might be the one in a billion who makes it. That's not helpful, it's like getting popcorn and waiting for a train wreck.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

I read all the different methods, ideas, techniques, approaches--whatever you want to call it. I absorb it all. Some of it I stick in the back of the closet. Some of it goes right in front on the first shelf. There's always more room in the closet. I draw on bits and pieces from time to time. When I try something new (for me, that is), I evaluate results. Good, bad, I didn't do it correctly, timing wrong. Some of it goes back on the first shelf. Some of it falls to the back. I suspect even top sellers constantly evolve. I'd like to join their ranks some day. I wish more of their evolution was here for us to experience and learn.


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

she-la-ti-da said:


> QFT
> 
> I've seen it happen, over and over here. Every so often we'll get a thread asking where the "old" members have gone. They've gone to private groups where they can be serious about what they're doing without having to defend it to people who have no idea how indie publishing has changed and grown.
> 
> Ten years ago, we didn't know what would work, if anything would. Gosh, it was so new! But there were people who were willing to try new things, make mistakes, start over, find something else to try. Many of us wondered if we'd ever be able to charge more than .99 for a book, if readers would be willing to take a chance on a book that wasn't from a "real" publisher. Now we have people who know what they're doing trying to save a new author from making mistakes they don't have to make. And the usual response: ohaigudideer! Try it, you might be the one in a billion who makes it. That's not helpful, it's like getting popcorn and waiting for a train wreck.


This is a sad thing to read--I wish, rather than beating your head against a wall in this mega-thread of ridiculousness only to want to run away from newbies, you would instead, write some advice and move on. Why are you burning yourself out on the newbie voices filling this thread, rather than moving on to threads where your help is just as valuable but 10X more appreciated.

I've received a ton of great advice on this board and not once have I responded, "Nuh uh, I know better." I take the advice and put it into practice. I _need_ and _want_ the advice of the "old members" because I am new and I want to succeed, not just dream with hair-brained what-ifs.

So please for the sake of your sanity, all you "old members" on this thread, if you're burning out, please move on to other threads where your help will be appreciated and used.


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## AllyWho (May 16, 2015)

she-la-ti-da said:


> Every so often we'll get a thread asking where the "old" members have gone. They've gone to private groups where they can be serious about what they're doing without having to defend it to people who have no idea how indie publishing has changed and grown.


This ^

I would also add that working indies have moved to discussions in private forums where they aren't hounded by those who think there is a quick/easy route to big money that the top sellers are keeping secret. Private forums also mean not worrying about the 1-star brigade that likes to ding anyone they don't agree with or who they think are doing too well & need shooting down. Private forums also allows for open honest *constructive* critique without having to dance around someone's feelings because they don't want to hear their package is lacking somehow.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Don't even know why I bother to comment, but...

I get real  p*ss y about the "all the old members have fled" meme. 

Here are some facts of life:

Almost everyone moves on after a while, not just the bestsellers. I run some of those FB groups that people are supposed to have fled to, and it's full of non-bestsellers who don't come here anymore or only sporadically. There is only so many times you can read the to-KU-or-not-to-KU debate. Most of the older people will still check in every now and then, just to see if anything has changed.

I think some of the "bestsellers" confuddle "asking a pointed question" with "being shouted down". I don't see anyone being shouted down, especially if they're offering advice. There is no shouting in this thread. And everyone acknowledges that the OP is allowed to do as he pleases.

I think it's quite healthy that people question the identity and truth of people claiming certain sales or bestseller status without proof. In other words, if someone is anonymous, the fact that people are willing to question. This is a good thing. Far too many people are far too trusting about handing over money, details or taking advice from people on the internet without independent evaluation and proof. So if you're anonymous and people can't check your Amazon page, the flip side is that you may get a pointy question or two. A very thankful fact of life. This is not the KB being particularly nasty.

Neither, by the way, do I see anyone espousing "the way".


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

^^^

What Patty said. Forums are not static. People come and go. Some come and go almost instantly like a rare element that exists only for a micro-milli-second. Some hang around a while. Some you can't get rid of.   

Most people come and stay a few months or years -- they had a question, it got answered, they enjoy the conversation for a while, and then real life takes over -- I totally can believe that some folks who were here frequently at the beginning of their careers are now too busy writing/publishing/promoting to check in here with any regularity! 

We also have some members who are very invested -- which is great: they tend to stick around through thick and thin and become the glue that holds it together. But even the most enthusiastic probably doesn't post as much after 6 months or a year as they did at the beginning. Doesn't mean they don't pop in daily and take part when the mood strikes. 

Do some leave because they've had a bad experience for one reason or another? Sure. But my guess is that, even when such a thing is the catalyst for departure, the person was probably leaning that way before the event.

I guess our philosophy is that everyone is welcome, but we completely realize it's not the right place for everyone. I know that some have left because they didn't like that we didn't let them call people names and use nasty language. Oh, well.


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## Sapphire (Apr 24, 2012)

Paraphrasing Ann, she said right above that most don't post as much as they did in their first 6 months _(or year or two)_. However, that doesn't mean they don't check in regularly. They just don't post.
(Italics mine)
I'm definitely not one of the big-sellers. In fact, I'm still struggling to climb out of prawn status. However, Ann's words describe me. I still post, but not as often as in the past. I do come hear and read almost daily though.


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## Kristen Painter (Apr 21, 2010)

AliceW said:


> This ^
> 
> I would also add that working indies have moved to discussions in private forums where they aren't hounded by those who think there is a quick/easy route to big money that the top sellers are keeping secret. Private forums also mean not worrying about the 1-star brigade that likes to ding anyone they don't agree with or who they think are doing too well & need shooting down. Private forums also allows for open honest *constructive* critique without having to dance around someone's feelings because they don't want to hear their package is lacking somehow.


Yep. Most of the big earners I know are the same private groups I am.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

AliceW said:


> This ^
> 
> I would also add that working indies have moved to discussions in private forums where they aren't hounded by those who think there is a quick/easy route to big money that the top sellers are keeping secret. Private forums also mean not worrying about the 1-star brigade that likes to ding anyone they don't agree with or who they think are doing too well & need shooting down. Private forums also allows for open honest *constructive* critique without having to dance around someone's feelings because they don't want to hear their package is lacking somehow.


It's also about ROI.

In the beginning, we give advice freely to anyone who'll listen. It feels good (study), which spurs us to continue. But as time passes, we realize that every moment spent giving is a moment _not_ spent growing our businesses.

The ROI of giving advice declines as the good feelings associated with doing so erode.

We gradually pull back, and devote more attention to growing our businesses. That means interacting with those who have achieved levels of success similar to, or greater than, our own.

It's not elitist. It's self-interest, which is the impetus of every human endeavor.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Patty Jansen said:


> Neither, by the way, do I see anyone espousing "the way".


Tut tut Patty, you must have me on 'ignore'.

I said quite clearly that *Mindfulness* is _the way_ just on the previous page!



Evenstar said:


> Right now I'm changing the way people buy books. I'm skipping through the bluebells being "mindful". Mindfulness is THE WAY, it means people will find my books through the power of my positive thoughts.


I read a marvellous book that showed me the power of mindfulnes



















And this companion book particularly resonated:


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

Evenstar, I've read your post five times now, and this is all I've got:


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

Live in the moment WyandVoidbringer ...

Mindfulness will bring you understanding. Consider the lily


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

Evenstar said:


> Live in the moment WyandVoidbringer ...
> 
> Mindfulness will bring you understanding. Consider the lily


John Cleese in a bra. Just what I needed to see today. Thank you.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, folks...this is a total derail of a thread that the OP has been pretty consistent about updating....I think it's time to move on to other threads, or start a new one if y'all want to be this off topic.

I know, I'm no fun whatsoever.

Betsy
KB Mod


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

> I'm not scared of people lashing out, I just don't care to waste my time on people who aren't serious and are merely askholes.


You do know that there is a really easy way to circumvent this, right?

Don't respond to these PMs. Or simply send them to a thread here, and keep all other advice you'd like to give public. That's what I do. I don't give private advice. I only refer tell them to search the KB, and don't respond to the rest. You're 100% right, life's too short for people who just ask and are too lazy to look for the answers. But that has nothing to do with being here, because I get those people from my mailing list, or Facebook, or Twitter.

I do the same with all of them: refer them here. End of my commitment.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

Boyd said:


> I have a hard time with that, and I know it's my fault. I always used to respond to those because when I was wanting to be serious and go to the next level, when I reached out, I got a response. I'm trying to give back, but getting worn out by feeling like nobody is actually listening.


I will respond, but only to people I've come to know, and usually only in a place where other people can see it, too. Either here or in a Facebook group or some other public venue like my blog. The upside is that many other people can also see it and it stops them from asking you the same question. Because I don't mind answering questions so much, but answering the same question gets a bit much. This is where forums are super-useful, tbh, because you just put those general info threads in your bookmarks and when someone asks, you send them a link. Done. No askholes. A bit unfair to blame the KBs for that, imo.


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## spellscribe (Nov 5, 2015)

I want what Evenstar had for breakfast...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Guy Riessen (Mar 27, 2016)

Boyd said:


> when I was wanting to be serious and go to the next level, when I reached out, I got a response. I'm trying to give back


This is very cool Boyd--paying it forward.
I'm not a benefactor of your private advice, but I'd like to cheer you for making the attempt to help others as you were helped.

Ol' Crusty Patty pretends to be awash in a sea of cynical detritus but really she also gives a helluva lot of great advice to newbs here on KBs


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## David VanDyke (Jan 3, 2014)

I've run across many of the askholes myself. Some of them are even relatively nice people, but they're Eeyores who act as swine before pearls. I give them one quick freebie and then cut off contact with a polite platitude if that's how they act. Life's too short.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

oakwood said:


> Let's un-hijack this thread
> 
> I would like to hear from OP if the experience of publishing has changed the plan, and if there are more books in the works. It's an indie fact that more books are better and the first one tends to be sluggish out of th gates, regardless of genre, quality and even marketing attempts.
> 
> It's still early days, but would be interesting to hear.


Sure--seems about as good a time as any to give an update, haha.

Sales have flatlined since the initial release, which was expected to happen since I've held off on any marketing until the minor editing issues were sorted out (which they have been, happy to say!). But given that the feedback to the book has been mostly negative thus far (still confused if the negativity is more towards the $9.99 experiment itself, and has bled over to the book, or otherwise), I need some context to the quality of the story, so have sent out copies to professional reviewers to hear back on the reader experience.

I maintain that the branding is strong enough to warrant a hard marketing push, but for a hefty $9.99 price tag in an industry conditioned to $0.99 - $4.99, the story needs to be just as powerful as the branding (if not more so) to give the customer a sense that the reader experience was worth their $9.99. So, this will take a little bit of time to solicit cover-to-cover reviews and see what the verdict is on the story. If it's still poorly received, I'll need to re-evaluate the plan and see what modifications would be necessary to continue the experiment. If the reviews are positive, then all systems go as originally planned!

For the gamers on KBoards, it's similar to the story last year about "No Man's Sky." It was an indie game that was presented as AAA during it's pre-release stage, had a corresponding price tag of $70 upon release, and then was widely criticized for being a $30 game disguised as an AAA title since the gamer experience was repetitive and didn't measure up to the depth of other AAA titles. It ended up being a commercial success anyway because the hype was so strong, but I have to imagine that the poor gamer experience has to have a negative effect on the developers and their reputation moving forward, and bringing it back to this project, I just think it's imperative that the quality of a product needs to match up with price point in order to achieve long-term success. IMO, the best way is to study the successes (and mistakes) of others, and learn from them.


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## unkownwriter (Jun 22, 2011)

Guy Riessen said:


> This is a sad thing to read--I wish, rather than beating your head against a wall in this mega-thread of ridiculousness only to want to run away from newbies, you would instead, write some advice and move on. Why are you burning yourself out on the newbie voices filling this thread, rather than moving on to threads where your help is just as valuable but 10X more appreciated.
> 
> I've received a ton of great advice on this board and not once have I responded, "Nuh uh, I know better." I take the advice and put it into practice. I _need_ and _want_ the advice of the "old members" because I am new and I want to succeed, not just dream with hair-brained what-ifs.
> 
> So please for the sake of your sanity, all you "old members" on this thread, if you're burning out, please move on to other threads where your help will be appreciated and used.


Well, okay then. Not beating my head against any wall, but thanks for the advice. I'll just leave the OP and the rest of you guys to get advice from those you think have more feeling for it. Geeze. If you want and need the oldtimers' advice, then you've gotten it in spades here. Why ding me with this reply? I'm not the only one who said it was a bad idea, and certainly not the only one who said the OP could do as he wanted, and we were done giving advice.

And how kind to be worried about my sanity, but it's not needed. I'm perfectly healthy in that regard. Not burning out, not having any issues with my advice being appreciated and used.



Boyd said:


> I want to give you AliceW and ThisWayDown a big thumbs up. This is a big reason I don't share much on here anymore. Reason? Askholes.
> 
> Askholes are a person or persons who only ask advice and takes only the advice that affirms their already closely held beliefs... Then get angry with the person they asked when things don't go their way.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Boyd. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. This thread reminds me of how things usually go at another forum I won't name for risk of being cattle-prodded.  People with knowledge give good advice, and they're ignored, insulted and harassed for it. Soon enough, they give up and leave the newbies to get advice from people with no knowledge or much sense, and thus ends potential writing careers.

Yes, people grow beyond a forum, start looking for the next level. And when they get beaten down enough, they finally realize they don't need to keep shouting into the wind. This could be such a forum, but it becomes clear enough when someone isn't wanted, and so the churn.


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## Evenstar (Jan 26, 2013)

R. T. Leone said:


> Sure--seems about as good a time as any to give an update, haha.
> 
> Sales have flatlined since the initial release, which was expected to happen since I've held off on any marketing until the minor editing issues were sorted out (which they have been, happy to say!). But given that the feedback to the book has been mostly negative thus far (still confused if the negativity is more towards the $9.99 experiment itself, and has bled over to the book, or otherwise), I need some context to the quality of the story, so have sent out copies to professional reviewers to hear back on the reader experience.
> 
> ...


Very mature approach RTL, good plan!


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

R. T. Leone said:


> I maintain that the branding is strong enough to warrant a hard marketing push, but for a hefty $9.99 price tag in an industry conditioned to $0.99 - $4.99, the story needs to be just as powerful as the branding (if not more so) to give the customer a sense that the reader experience was worth their $9.99. So, this will take a little bit of time to solicit cover-to-cover reviews and see what the verdict is on the story. If it's still poorly received, I'll need to re-evaluate the plan and see what modifications would be necessary to continue the experiment. If the reviews are positive, then all systems go as originally planned!


I think the value you'll gain from straight up selling your book will be incredibly more valuable than "the experiment" will be. I personally believe your cover and to a lesser extent your blurb are good enough that you would move a good amount of copies if you tried first a stacked promo at $0.99 followed by a full price of $2.99, then boosted with some FB ads or, at that price, still other promotional sites.

The feedback you'll subsequently receive from actual readers who chose to buy and read your story will also prove to be so much more worth it to you as an author than some responses from "professional reviewers".

Preferably before your first 30 days are up.

I get the impression overall that you are hesitantly dipping your pinkie toe in the swimming pool. Maybe at some point you'll find your whole body in the water, but it'll be closing hours before you'll even start to swim.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Is it just too impolite to suggest that the *Target: $100K* is just -- not -- going -- to -- be -- achieved?

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #786,415 Paid in Kindle Store


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## LadyG (Sep 3, 2015)

notjohn said:


> Is it just too impolite to suggest that the *Target: $100K* is just -- not -- going -- to -- be -- achieved?
> 
> Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #786,415 Paid in Kindle Store


Wow, notjohn, do you have to sound quite so gleeful about that?


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

Frankly, I'd put 90% of my effort at this point into learning storytelling and other writing-related skills. Being a good writer is not sufficient in and of itself, but it's a rare, rare bird (and an ugly one, too), that doesn't have the good storytelling first, sales second. And if you think you're the other exception that writes wonderful stories right out of the gate, you're probably wrong about that, too.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm going to be really honest here... I think at .99, the book would have gotten a boost at launch from curiosity buys from Kboarders (if you don't think this is a thing, go look at also-viewed/also-bought of books that are posted on Kboards with peeps complaining of low sales etc, they will be full of other Kboards books), but still would have sunk to where it is now.

The cover is okay, but not exactly wow-factor. The blurb is weird, kind of pretentious, and doesn't promise a great reading experience or showcase the book in the best light, imo. The opening, editing issues aside, is very amateur. Most people can't sell their first book. Most writers have to go through the process of making a lot of newbie writing mistakes like poor punctuation choices, character decisions and thoughts that make zero sense, random description, telling not showing, etc before we write something that is good enough to draw readers into our created stories.

OP- you are not writing a video game. You might want to, but fiction writing, novel writing... it isn't the same medium. When writing a novel, think about people who read novels. Think about the novel reading experience. Gaming is different. I both game a lot and read a lot, and I do them for different reasons that have only superficial crossover. There are different skills required for writing for a game and writing a cohesive narrative with deep characterization that makes a novel reader keep reading for hundreds of pages. I think you could potentially be a good writer. But this book indicates you are not there yet. Write another novel. Maybe join Critters or some other critique group (preferably one with genre writers/readers) and get a few good beta readers. (Honestly, I think a lot of people who wonder why they don't sell here on Kboards could use this advice... craft is king).  Keep the enthusiasm and willingness to experiment, but perhaps temper it with some serious time spent learning how to write better books.  It'll have a much better chance of paying off in the long run.

Professional reviewers are unlikely, btw, to give the book the time of day, even if it is a masterpiece. They get a ton of requests and rarely review non-Trad titles. Maybe try giving away a bunch of copies via LibraryThing if you want reviews? But reviews are not the way to find out if you've written a good book. Hopefully you've done that work before the book is released. Reviews won't be kind if you've failed (and even if you've succeeded, everyone gets poor reviews sometimes).


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## Adam_T (Aug 7, 2016)

Annie B said:


> I'm going to be really honest here... I think at .99, the book would have gotten a boost at launch from curiosity buys from Kboarders (if you don't think this is a thing, go look at also-viewed/also-bought of books that are posted on Kboards with peeps complaining of low sales etc, they will be full of other Kboards books), but still would have sunk to where it is now.
> 
> The cover is okay, but not exactly wow-factor. The blurb is weird, kind of pretentious, and doesn't proyou mise a great reading experience or showcase the book in the best light, imo. The opening, editing issues aside, is very amateur. Most people can't sell their first book. Most writers have to go through the process of making a lot of newbie writing mistakes like poor punctuation choices, character decisions and thoughts that make zero sense, random description, telling not showing, etc before we write something that is good enough to draw readers into our created stories.
> 
> ...


If you game a lot, truly game, like the good ones, you'd know that basically every medium for storytelling these days is superior in almost all ways than the written manuscript. It takes a team, or at least a lot of supporting players to put together the complexities of stories that have not just concepts, but visuals, audio, and is delivered in a form that is digested quickly enough were mistakes cannot be overlooked.

The parts you wrote about reviewers ignoring it no matter what the quality is absolutely correct, and should be emphasized and expanded on. Very rarely does the quality of writing count for much when it comes to developing a niche or getting exposure. Pretty much all that matters, from what I can tell from my very limited perspective clear at the bottom, is writing to market, then marketing to your audience. Blurb should reinforce whatever generic overly marketable BS the writer is peddling to the lowest common denominator, doesn't have to be fancy, and the book cover needs abs or a wolf or some sort of character doing a pose on top of more stock photography blended well.

Why do all of my posts end up being bitter rants? My point was that there's no need to belittle his work as part of this discussion, because it really doesn't matter.

_Edited. We do use the word troll here in any iteration. PM me if you have any questions. --Betsy/KB Mod_


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Adam_Nox said:


> I think you're just trolling with a lot of this. If you game a lot, truly game, like the good ones, you'd know that basically every medium for storytelling these days is superior in almost all ways than the written manuscript. It takes a team, or at least a lot of supporting players to put together the complexities of stories that have not just concepts, but visuals, audio, and is delivered in a form that is digested quickly enough were mistakes cannot be overlooked.
> 
> The parts you wrote about reviewers ignoring it no matter what the quality is absolutely correct, and should be emphasized and expanded on. Very rarely does the quality of writing count for much when it comes to developing a niche or getting exposure. Pretty much all that matters, from what I can tell from my very limited perspective clear at the bottom, is writing to market, then marketing to your audience. Blurb should reinforce whatever generic overly marketable BS the writer is peddling to the lowest common denominator, doesn't have to be fancy, and the book cover needs abs or a wolf or some sort of character doing a pose on top of more stock photography blended well.
> 
> Why do all of my posts end up being bitter rants? My point was that there's no need to belittle his work as part of this discussion, because it really doesn't matter.


And this, ladies and germs, is why most big sellers don't post here anymore. Exactly this. I don't think you know who you're belittling, sir. And this is some pretty thinly veiled misogyny you've got going on.

I know an awful lot of six and seven figure authors. Craft matters. Storytelling matters. Craft doesn't necessarily mean flowery prose. It means the ability to hook a reader and keep her hooked. It means strong voice. It means characters that a reader remembers, and readers devouring all six books in as many days. To sell--really sell--your work can't just be good enough. It has to have some element that makes SOME readers sit up and take notice and talk about it. That isn't the same element for every group of readers. And before somebody says "But Dan Brown. But E. L. James"--if you want to make it, you'd be best served to try to figure out what in that person's writing caught the imagination.

And if you want to learn, don't condescend to authors who are already at the level you're trying to reach. Even if they are women.

They may be better gamers than you, too.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Adam_Nox said:


> basically every medium for storytelling these days is superior in almost all ways than the written manuscript.


I suppose that might be true with regard to those poor souls in the world who struggle with reading, whether it be dyslexia or a simple lack of education. But this is a forum for writers and the OP is trying to sell a written book, not a video game or a screen play.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Video games can have great storytelling. However, game storytelling is different from a novel, and if you try to reproduce the game experience in a novel, you will likely fail for a host of reasons. No troll. Sigh.

I wasn't belitting anything. I am pointing out that I saw deep craft issues in the sample of the work that I think can be addressed with experience, critique groups, and practice (I know because I used to be a beginning writer too, obviously... we all start somewhere). If you see pointing out that there might be reasons a book fails beyond price or marketing as an insult, I think perhaps that says more about your feelings than anything else...

So... sorry you are bitter, but maybe Kboards isn't the place to spew it? Writing quality matters, in my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine. No need to slam me over it.

As for the big reviewers... that's just how it is. They get more requests and books than they can handle. Not sure how pointing out reality is suddenly a bad thing? It's just what it is.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

Doglover said:


> I suppose that might be true with regard to those poor souls in the world who struggle with reading, whether it be dyslexia or a simple lack of education. But this is a forum for writers and the OP is trying to sell a written book, not a video game or a screen play.


Um... I'm dyslexic. It's not true in my experience. I think anyone who believes written word stories are bad probably just doesn't like novels.


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## Vidya (Feb 14, 2012)

I actually thought the 9.99 experiment could have had some success, even if not to the extent the OP wanted, IF he had put it into KU. Some readers who skim might have simply noted the price, assumed it was trad pubbed, and borrowed it for that reason. Others who did see it was indie pubbed might have got curious about a writer who had the guts/nerve to price that high. They would have borrowed it just out of curiosity to see if the book was worth the price the author considered it was.

Heck, even here on kboards I bet many would have borrowed the book to check it out and also to help a fellow kboarder. Yes, much has been said about the mean one-star brigade and I have no doubt they exist but the truth is there are also lots of very helpful people on kboards and I bet they would have borrowed the book to help a new writer out. The borrows would then have raised the book’s rank and given it some visibility.

OP, it may not be too late. Why not try putting it in KU?


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## AuthorX (Nov 11, 2014)

R. T. Leone said:


> Sure--seems about as good a time as any to give an update, haha.
> 
> Sales have flatlined since the initial release, which was expected to happen since I've held off on any marketing until the minor editing issues were sorted out (which they have been, happy to say!). But given that the feedback to the book has been mostly negative thus far (still confused if the negativity is more towards the $9.99 experiment itself, and has bled over to the book, or otherwise), I need some context to the quality of the story, so have sent out copies to professional reviewers to hear back on the reader experience.
> 
> ...


You're handling this all in stride, but I still think you're failing to see what you're doing wrong. Books cannot be marketed the same as video games. No Man's Sky was hyped because of the screenshots, gameplay videos, etc. People are willing to pay top dollar for video game because they can get a sense of what the game will be like beforehand. With books, the only thing you get is a 10% sample and some reviews.

Now let's take a step back here. As a reader, you've got $10 in your pocket and you're browsing Amazon for a superhero book. You see four books on Amazon, all with a ton of great 5-star reviews and cool samples in the look inside. Three of them are priced at $2.99 and one of them is priced at $10 by a new author. Is there _anything _that is going to make you choose the $10 book? For most readers, no. They will buy the other three books and have some certainty that at least one of them will float their boat.

From what I read of your book, there was nothing severely wrong with it. Your cover was alright. Your sample was alright. Your blurb wasn't terrible. Your sales were not low because your had editing problems... 99% of your sales problem is because you were wide and priced too high as a new author, period. The kind of errors that you had in your book were forgivable to most readers. But now you're wasting more time (and probably more money) on editing and getting professional reviews. If you had just priced your book appropriately and spent that time working on your next book, you might be 1/3 the way through it already.

If you clean up all your editing issues and convince the so-called 'professional' reviewers say they love your book, your results won't change. You've got to buckle on the pricing thing, and just put it into Kindle Unlimited for now. You can always take it out later...


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

Annie B said:


> Um... I'm dyslexic. It's not true in my experience. I think anyone who believes written word stories are bad probably just doesn't like novels.


I meant no disrespect, just trying to make the poster understand that we don't all want to watch movies and play video games. I would far rather go to bed early with a book than stay up to watch a film. My daughter has a problem with fiction; she says she can never remember what the story was about on the previous page, can't absorb it all. But she reads non-fiction, biographies and the like.

Not everyone is into novels, but that doesn't mean they are inferior. Heaven help us if we have to look to some future where we have to rely on visual stories and audio books. I can never understand audiobooks.


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Vidya said:


> I actually thought the 9.99 experiment could have had some success, even if not to the extent the OP wanted, IF he had put it into KU. Some readers who skim might have simply noted the price, assumed it was trad pubbed, and borrowed it for that reason. Others who did see it was indie pubbed might have got curious about a writer who had the guts/nerve to price that high. They would have borrowed it just out of curiosity to see if the book was worth the price the author considered it was.
> 
> Heck, even here on kboards I bet many would have borrowed the book to check it out and also to help a fellow kboarder. Yes, much has been said about the mean one-star brigade and I have no doubt they exist but the truth is there are also lots of very helpful people on kboards and I bet they would have borrowed the book to help a new writer out. The borrows would then have raised the book's rank and given it some visibility.
> 
> OP, it may not be too late. Why not try putting it in KU?


Something I've been pondering for a while now (was one of the pricing strategies I seriously considered while writing the book, but ultimately settled with $9.99). The concern is that KU conflicts with the experiment (which hasn't really gone into effect yet), since a KU title with a $9.99 price tag would rather encourage a potential customer to instead sign up for KU and enjoy a month of unlimited reading instead of purchasing the book itself, and opens the possibility of a customer reading a few pages of your book before moving onto the next. So, in essence, the title (and any marketing efforts invested into it) is more beneficial for the retailer rather than the author themselves.

The advantage is that KU makes the book more accessible to a wider audience and gets me the cover-to-cover feedback I'm looking for (though, if we're being honest, I think I would be naive in not thinking that I'd be inviting a slew of one-star reviews from the self-publishing community ).

So this is something I've definitely got to consider (and soon--the clock is still ticking). Like any situation, it's good to have a plan, but unforeseen circumstances can definitely pop up during the execution stage, and modifications are necessary to achieve the most optimal result. In this case, a buffer between release and marketing was created due to the feedback received, and perhaps that opens up an opportunity to enroll the book in KU for a ninety-day period.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

Annie B said:


> Um... I'm dyslexic.


Interesting, thank you. At fifteen, my mildly dyslexic granddaughter is the most naturally gifted writer I have ever encountered. She reminds me of Thelonious Monk, who when asked how he did his jazz riffs, said: "All I know is, for every note there's another note that melts it, and I try to catch it with my hands." I once watched her compose a story in her head. She would run full tilt a hundred yards up the driveway, turn and walk back, run, walk, run, walk. Then she went back inside and keyed it into the laptop.

I live for the day when she gets off the fan-fiction kick.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Folks, overnight reports. Locking while I catch up. EDIT: I've done some pruning.

New(ish) members, name calling and personal attacks of any kind are not allowed here and will get you banned. This includes, specifically, use of the word troll in all of its forms. Accusing someone of being a troll or of trolling is without a doubt a personal attack and is not allowed. Please read the first post of Forum Decorum if you haven't already.

Specifically, to Adam_Nox, Annie B's post was a sincere effort to offer constructive advice to RT, who has shown great willingness to listen to such advice. There are other forums where the kind of response you made is appropriate. This is not one of them.

Unlocking thread now. Thanks to everyone who has continued to respond civilly despite provocation and to RTL for accepting comments with good grace.

Betsy
KB Moderator


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## AndrewSeiple (Jan 3, 2016)

I think you should go with Kindle Unlimited.

At this point of things, readers don't know your name. Getting eyes on your stuff is more important than profits, and KU's a way to do that without ditching profits entirely.

Look at it this way: Think of KU as a book club full of voracious, enthusiastic readers. You'll get paid, not as much as a full sale, true, but you'll get paid a decent chunk nonetheless.

You're not giving your book away for free, you're just giving a very influential and widespread book club a very good discount.


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## MonkeyScribe (Jan 27, 2011)

AndrewSeiple said:


> Look at it this way: Think of KU as a book club full of voracious, enthusiastic readers. You'll get paid, not as much as a full sale, true, but you'll get paid a decent chunk nonetheless.
> 
> You're not giving your book away for free, you're just giving a very influential and widespread book club a very good discount.


I like this. It strikes me as both largely true and helpful psychologically at the same time.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

I would say the release outside KU, priced at 9.99 strategy hasn't worked, and obviously the author should adjust the 100k goal just for piece of mind, if they haven't already.

You take a look at the top 100 books of your genre (superhero fantasy) and you can see that most books are 3.99 - 4.99 which is where you'd price unless you need visibility in which case .99 cents is your best bet. Change your cover to suit the others in the genre. While the designer has some skill, it doesn't fit in with the genre and all words along with the vertical letters make the title difficult to read. The image is in the background as well - again nothing like the covers of books in the genre.

Run a free promo after the cover change and hope for honest reviews that way. 

For the next book -
Study other books in the genre and see what types of stories are resonating with readers - spot similarities and try to come up with your own unique spin on something that has already proven to have an audience for it.

It's also important to decide where you're willing to give up on your writing journey. Are you an author who needs to make thousands of dollars on their first few books, or are you willing to write dozens of books and make no money for years (until you hopefully do)? What is your breaking point, what is your long term approach to this? Have a plan for what happens when books succeed and another plan for when they fail.


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## Author A.C. Salter (Mar 14, 2017)

Good luck my friend - I'm watching with keen interest


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## W.W. (Jun 27, 2011)

RT, I'm curious what you meant by professional reviewers. Beta readers? Content editors? Or paid reviews?


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

If your fear is that people will read a few pages and move on, then I think the focus here is on the wrong thing? Because what we have to do as writers in order to build an audience and a career out of this, if that is the goal (which from the first post you made, OP, I think it is your goal)... you have to write books people don't want to put down.

While I think every writer fears that people won't keep reading... what comes with experience and building of craft is that we know there's a good chance they will (well, we hope anyway, haha). If you are afraid to give away a book for pages read because of that fear, that tells me that maybe you know in your heart that the book won't hold a reader.  Given the in-depth review that you agreed with and my own feelings about the sample pages, I have a feeling that might be the case with this book.

A poster above compared writing with music or art and I want to refute what was said a bit. I took four years of piano lessons before I ever did a recital, and that recital was for friends/family and totally free. Even after seven years of piano and nearly 20 years of playing harp, I'd never charge for a concert. I'm not good enough (for a host of reasons, the main being music is a hobby for me and I don't pursue it in a way that would make sense to try to make a career out of). I have friends who are professional artists who spent a decade plus working on their art skills before offering anything for sale (all of them also have art degrees and have spent 4-8 years in college as well as taking lots of classes and workshops etc when younger).  Nobody picks up a paint brush, paints one painting and expects to have an art show and sell their work for hundreds of dollars (well, okay, people probably do try this, but nobody succeeds this way in my experience).

Writing is a weird thing, because everyone thinks they learn how to write in school, but the truth is that fiction writing, long or short form, is far more complex and difficult than it seems at first. Then you add in the business side, that thing called "publishing" and it gets even more complicated. At some level, art is subjective, and so is writing. But there are levels at which it isn't, as well, and mistakes that can be avoided and mistakes that every beginner makes almost without exception. With self-publishing, a lot of the mistakes get published and a lot of people face levels of disappointment that aren't that different from taking the trad route where you get form rejection after form rejection.  It's tempting then to look at the book lists and wonder "why not me" and "why is that awful book selling" and other frankly unhelpful things, when what would likely do the most good is for the writer to look inward and be very honest with themselves about their craft.  90% of the time I read a post complaining about no or poor sales and go to read the look-inside, I see problems within the first few pages that craft learning, experience, and more writing practice would potentially fix. I usually say little or nothing about craft here because fixing a cover or changing a price is easier and gentler than saying there's something wrong with a book.

The answer is often "write another book" and I think that's what I'd advise here, too. Practice more. Drop the price and go into KU if that's what you want with this book (it won't hurt, anyway) but unless there's some super driving need for this to be your only book (not a good way to build a career though...) then I think a lot of the issues you are seeing can be fixed with critiques, more writing practice, and time.

If it makes you feel better, I have 5 novels and a few dozen short stories that nobody will ever read. They were practice.  Some went on submission to publishers and I learned very quickly from those rejections that I wasn't good enough yet. In some ways I'm glad self-pub wasn't around when I started, but I also published some not so great early work when I did start doing indie, and I unpublished it when I realized it wasn't going to help me build a career. There's no shame in recognizing our weaknesses and taking steps to solve things, in my opinion.

And in anticipation of someone jumping in to point out bad books sell all the time... I'll defend those books saying they tend to NOT make the basic beginning level writing mistakes (and they tend to be very focused in their blurbs and covers etc to hit their markets). Also, I follow some of the writing to trend authors whose books have some serious craft weaknesses and you know what I see? Not great sell-through to further books, and total ranking collapse if they let more than a month or two lapse between releases. It's one way to do a career, but I will go to my poverty-stricken grave if I have to believing that craft matters and builds a better base for a writing career. That's a hill I'll happily die on


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

Some have pointed out the advantages of being in KU. Since you went wide, I would be curious to know how your non-Amazon sales compare with your Amazon sales. Because if you're not doing so hot in Amazon but are selling more at another venue, then continuing to be wide makes sense. If you're not selling at all anywhere else, then that might be a good reason to try the KU thing.


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

I just want to say to the OP, I love the fact that you are trying something different and sharing your results. It's one of the ways we all learn and grow (regardless of whether your experiment succeeds or fails). I'm glad to see that you're not getting discouraged yet. And that you're making adjustments based on feedback about your book before you renew your marketing efforts. I'll be watching with interest to see how this goes. Good Luck!


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## Shelley K (Sep 19, 2011)

Launching at a high price point is for when you have a fanbase waiting to buy the thing.

Without having an established name with fans, you could make money at $9.99 but it's likely going to take, at minimum:

a hefty marketing budget and detailed plan

a story that gets great word-of-mouth advertising from people in that genre reading and posting about it on social media

a killer cover

OP, you didn't go all in with marketing, and others have commented on the cover not being a stellar one for the genre. And the book, judging from the sample, could be improved. The one-star reviewer, as harsh as some think it is, clearly read the book and made some good observations and points. So that's 0 for 3 in what's needed to make money from a high-priced launch on a new pen name.

If nothing else, you have lessons in what to do and what not to do next time. Get the book in better shape. Get a genre-appropriate cover. Measure your expectations. Visibility is king when you're starting out, and you get a ton more for 99 cents than 9.99, and you'll make more money than you have so far with a $10 one.

My bestselling book of all time would not have been so if it had been first, published at $9.99. Yes, some people hit it out of the gate, but that's rare. More often it takes a couple of published books (and maybe a lot of words not published) before things start to take off. I've made a living at this for years now, and every book I've written, every one I've gone on to publish, contributed to that. My bestseller wasn't written to market, so I thought it would be my passion project that probably wouldn't sell much. I was all right with that. Yet it's my bestseller by a mile, despite it not fitting perfectly into any one market.

I would still advise newbies to stick to market conventions when starting out. Because the success of that book probably wouldn't have come if not for my fanbase (which is small, but there), my name recognition in the genre, the knowledge I've gained about marketing and visibility and my willingness to put all that into play to launch a book, and I think most importantly the fact that I've written millions and millions of words of fiction over many, many years. I'm not a great writer, but I'm a darn competent one who knows how to structure a story and provide a satisfying experience for most readers. Without all of those things--competency, lessons learned about publishing and marketing, a somewhat established name with fans--the book would most likely have languished. And despite this book's success, and how it has lifted up my back catalog and raised my income by quite a lot, I would never launch my next book at $9.99. I know enough about my genre and readers to tell you that would be a terrible mistake. If I knew less, maybe I'd try it, watch the book tank and scratch my head about what went wrong.

Very few people who swing for the seats the first time they hold a bat are going to hit a home run. Foul ball probably, if you hit it at all. But every time you step up to the plate, your chances of hitting the ball increase. Kudos to those who knew nothing, jumped in and killed it. Many if not most of us needed practice and experience.

People can argue about which way is the right way. But there's a way that has worked best for an awful lot of people, many who are now incredibly successful. You deviate from that at your own risk, and if you do, you'd better be prepared to make up for any shortcomings in other ways (marketing, for instance).

You can turn an unsuccessful launch into a better one. Get some beta readers in your genre. Read some craft books and look at your manuscript with a critical eye. Revise. Get a better cover. Republish at 99 cents. You'll almost certainly make more money, though I wouldn't count on a lot, but you'll get more eyes on the book and more readers, which is the most important thing for you at this stage of the game.

Also, what Boyd said about why some people post less. All of that. And Rosalind's point, too. When somebody knows so little as to accuse Annie of being a word for someone fishing in a moving boat, welp, there's no getting through to some people, so why try.


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## Flying Pizza Pie (Dec 19, 2016)

So, on top of getting some really good advice from a number of hot-selling authors, you now feel:

QUOTE
The advantage is that KU makes the book more accessible to a wider audience and gets me the cover-to-cover feedback I'm looking for (though, if we're being honest, I think I would be naive in not thinking that I'd be inviting a slew of one-star reviews from the self-publishing community ).

Wow. You really think everyone here is waiting to give you bad reviews? Like your book or not, that could have happened by reading your "Look Inside," if we were all gunning for you! Get over yourself.

You wrote an interesting story. It's a first piece of work from a new author. My early stuff was terrible. My current stuff is a little better. I'll never be Stephen King. So what? Drop your price to 99-cents, do some cheap promos, go with KU. If it reads well, it will sell. If not, you're working on your next book, right?


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

AndrewSeiple said:


> I think you should go with Kindle Unlimited.
> 
> At this point of things, readers don't know your name. Getting eyes on your stuff is more important than profits, and KU's a way to do that without ditching profits entirely.
> 
> ...


This was exactly what I considered and implemented myself. While imperfect, it gets interest in book lovers to read your book. It generates interest, positive income and garners some reviews for a debut author. The more interesting your book, the more income you've generated.


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## kenbritz (Oct 24, 2016)

Adam_Nox said:


> If you game a lot, truly game, like the good ones, you'd know that basically every medium for storytelling these days is superior in almost all ways than the written manuscript. It takes a team, or at least a lot of supporting players to put together the complexities of stories that have not just concepts, but visuals, audio, and is delivered in a form that is digested quickly enough were mistakes cannot be overlooked.


Every game starts with a story in the creator's mind. Every medium may be superior in delivery, but it *all* starts with the written word. Do comedians whip lines off the cuff during their performances? Does every movie or tv episode occur without a script? Even reality tv has a script. Everything starts with an idea, but an idea is worth _nothing_. But an idea developed and shaped into a concept and then into a story - that's storytelling. Even if the result is not a book, the intention of the result is a story you want the consumer to experience, whether they consume it passively or interactively. Even directors consider themselves storytellers - they ingest the script and use their own ideas, knowledge and experience to shape the story into a visual experience.

I've played a lot of games, but the ones I enjoyed most were the ones that were a story I participated in.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

It's now half price by the looks of it. Either the OP is trying something new or the GooglePlay random discounter demon has hit and the Amazon bots have picked up on it. Currently £4.96 in the UK.

To R.T. - I mentioned this somewhere in the massive throng of posts, but was probably lost in the crowd. If this price change is intentional, it's a good idea to set your international pricing manually. Just a really small thing, but the wisdom out there is to make sure the markets that are used to seeing .99 or .49 on their prices should see that pricing. So £4.99 UK, probably $6.99 or $5.99 in Australia and Canada. 

I'm not sure if there's a scientific examination to prove this, but just putting it out there. 

Still hoping this does well.


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## jaehaerys (Feb 18, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> To sell--really sell--your work can't just be good enough. It has to have some element that makes SOME readers sit up and take notice and talk about it. That isn't the same element for every group of readers. And before somebody says "But Dan Brown. But E. L. James"--if you want to make it, you'd be best served to try to figure out what in that person's writing caught the imagination.


I think Dan Brown is a master storyteller, and I would love to be able to do what he does. I don't understand why he gets as much grief as he does from people, his sales are incredible, clearly his craft touches people.

E.L. James gets slammed a lot as well, and while I wouldn't necessarily call her an outright storytelling master just yet given that she doesn't have as many different stories/series topping bestsellers lists, it's still clear to me that with FSOG she pulled off a 'masterful' performance. Will it be a one time thing for her? Time will tell, but I don't think anyone can say she didn't deliver a remarkable experience to readers, just look at the success she had reaching people.

Say what you want about craft, but you have to be a special kind of storyteller or at least once be able to conjure a pretty special performance to really effect readers the way Dan Brown and E.L. James have. So, I totally agree with Rosalind. You've gotta study what the masters are doing and have done and work super hard to become a master storyteller yourself if you have any hope of having success in this business.

It's not easy to do, and I for one don't know if I have what it takes to do it, but I think the wrong way to go about it is to presuppose that readers are in any way unsophisticated or need be thought of as a collective like a 'lowest common denominator' that must be mindlessly marketed to. I'm fairly certain it's just the opposite. You have to revere readers and revere story and storytelling above all else if you're ever going to be able to harness whatever skills and artistic talent you may have and put it all together into this THING that's really going to knock people's socks off. The marketing and all of that stuff is secondary, in my opinion. Everything is subservient to story.

(Edited for grammar.)


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## R. T. Leone (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks for the recent wave of advice and well wishes!



ADDavies said:


> It's now half price by the looks of it. Either the OP is trying something new or the GooglePlay random discounter demon has hit and the Amazon bots have picked up on it. Currently £4.96 in the UK.
> 
> To R.T. - I mentioned this somewhere in the massive throng of posts, but was probably lost in the crowd. If this price change is intentional, it's a good idea to set your international pricing manually. Just a really small thing, but the wisdom out there is to make sure the markets that are used to seeing .99 or .49 on their prices should see that pricing. So £4.99 UK, probably $6.99 or $5.99 in Australia and Canada.
> 
> ...


Not sure what happened there. The only thing I did yesterday was remove the book from Pronoun (grand total of one sale there, LOL) in preparation for a potential KDP Select enrollment, but it'll take 1-10 days for B&N to unpublish (Google Play and Apple iBooks has historically been quick), so I'll need to wait up.

Gotta look into your advice about price-fixing (not as devious as it sounds!) for the .99 price ending. Have you noticed if it has a significant effect on sales? I do get this a lot in Canada (with US prices adjusted for the currency exchange rate), but it hasn't really ever deterred me from making a purchase (though, .99 and .00 does look cleaner than .43 or .21, so perhaps it does have a positive effect, if even aesthetically).


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## Lu Kudzoza (Nov 1, 2015)

Rosalind J said:


> To sell--really sell--your work can't just be good enough. It has to have some element that makes SOME readers sit up and take notice and talk about it. That isn't the same element for every group of readers.


This is the key. Write the best book you can. Then find your audience and slowly collect fans.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

R. T. Leone said:


> Gotta look into your advice about price-fixing (not as devious as it sounds!) for the .99 price ending. Have you noticed if it has a significant effect on sales? I do get this a lot in Canada (with US prices adjusted for the currency exchange rate), but it hasn't really ever deterred me from making a purchase (though, .99 and .00 does look cleaner than .43 or .21, so perhaps it does have a positive effect, if even aesthetically).


I don't think it's a huge deal, TBH, but it looks cleaner and more professional and is very simple to fix. But if it loses you just one sale, who's to say that customer wouldn't have have shared your book with Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc? Like I say, very small issue but a quick fix.


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

R. T. Leone said:


> I do get this a lot in Canada (with US prices adjusted for the currency exchange rate), but it hasn't really ever deterred me from making a purchase


As a Brit, I think non-Americans are totally used to seeing odd prices. It's never bothered me at all, anyway, and all my books are set at the US price and adjusted by Amazon. At least that way nobody's getting ripped off by a price that's been rounded up to a nice number.


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## Patty Jansen (Apr 5, 2011)

PaulineMRoss said:


> As a Brit, I think non-Americans are totally used to seeing odd prices. It's never bothered me at all, anyway, and all my books are set at the US price and adjusted by Amazon. At least that way nobody's getting ripped off by a price that's been rounded up to a nice number.


This.

When I, in Australia, see a nice round number, I know one thing: I'm being gouged.

We're already being gouged left, right and centre: coffee at a cafe: $5, mass paperback book: $29.99, rent: $500-2000 per week. So, yanno... I really don't care about your $2.74 price point, because I know I'm paying the same what the rest of the world is, not some extra-inflated version of it "because Australia supports a higher price point" as Mark L from Kobo loves to say. Yeah. We really loooooove being gouged by everyone.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

PaulineMRoss said:


> As a Brit, I think non-Americans are totally used to seeing odd prices. It's never bothered me at all, anyway, and all my books are set at the US price and adjusted by Amazon. At least that way nobody's getting ripped off by a price that's been rounded up to a nice number.


This is interesting info to hear. Even as an American, I don't mind odd prices at all. I don't see them on ebooks that often, of course, but it certainly doesn't put me off buying the book if I want to. I guess it doesn't really make sense that it would bother anyone else. I'm curious if anyone's ever done a survey about this. I wonder if there are some countries that would be more wary of odd prices than others.


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## ThomasDiehl (Aug 23, 2014)

Shawna Canon said:


> This is interesting info to hear. Even as an American, I don't mind odd prices at all. I don't see them on ebooks that often, of course, but it certainly doesn't put me off buying the book if I want to. I guess it doesn't really make sense that it would bother anyone else. I'm curious if anyone's ever done a survey about this. I wonder if there are some countries that would be more wary of odd prices than others.


To me, they look unprofessional and make me wary of buying a book. I often see stuff like € 1.03 and it just looks odd. They tend to end up in my wishlist indefinitely. Not to mention you loose the psychological effect the .99 prices are going for.
However, I know odd prices are far more common in the UK than they are in the Eurozone. I always found that weird about the UK.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Haven't had the time to keep up with the thread but am still curious.

Are we on pace to make the goal?


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

Patty Jansen said:


> This.
> 
> When I, in Australia, see a nice round number, I know one thing: I'm being gouged.
> 
> We're already being gouged left, right and centre: coffee at a cafe: $5, mass paperback book: $29.99, rent: $500-2000 per week. So, yanno... I really don't care about your $2.74 price point, because I know I'm paying the same what the rest of the world is, not some extra-inflated version of it "because Australia supports a higher price point" as Mark L from Kobo loves to say. Yeah. We really loooooove being gouged by everyone.


That's a fair comment, and my feeling has always been to never inflate the price like Mark L. suggests. A few cents here and there, maybe $4.82 up to $4.99 but usually I'm rounding DOWN, e.g., from memory my last change was $5.41 (ish) down to $4.99 in CA and AU.

I don't know why it matters. I just like it "clean".


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Herefortheride said:


> Haven't had the time to keep up with the thread but am still curious.
> 
> Are we on pace to make the goal?


C'mon Harrington. It's time to up your thread-reading game.


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## H.C. (Jul 28, 2016)

Anarchist said:


> C'mon Harrington. It's time to up your thread-reading game.


I tried but then there was like eight pages and I don't want to spend that much time fiddling on Kboards.

I have a book to edit, you know.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Herefortheride said:


> I tried but then there was like eight pages and I don't want to spend that much time fiddling on Kboards.
> 
> I have a book to edit, you know.


Haha.

Here's the spoiler: goal was not reached.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> Gotta look into your advice about price-fixing (not as devious as it sounds!) for the .99 price ending.


I rather like prices that end in .95 cents. Doesn't work of course for 99 cents or $2.99, but looks pretty good to me after that.

I used to think that that was because if I saw a penny on the sidewalk, I wouldn't bother to pick it up. But now I wouldn't bother to pick up a nickel, either....


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2017)

TwistedTales said:


> I've been tracking this thread with only marginal interest. Most indies know occasionally a newbie and book hits the road running, but mostly not. Percentage chances of success for this trial were negligible to zero. There wasn't much to learn from watching a bellyflop. Even had it succeeded, most would query the invisible levers or called it luck.
> 
> What I don't understand is why the OP is doing this? What's the point? What's the rush? So, run the book up the ranks and then switch the pricing. Why try and cold launch an author name and book at 9.99? Everybody is well aware buyers are getting used to lower price points, so what is the OP trying to prove?
> 
> ...


You've touched on a problem I have often found with first time indies. The complete lack of patience. If you don't have a hit our there and need a follow-up, what's the rush? Take your time and get it right. Build your foundation, do everything within reason to make sure you have the best chance, and when it's ready, only then hit publish. 
What I can't stand is the attitude of fix it as you go. It's one of the things that gives indie a name for poor quality. And is advice I see being frequently given - though not by writers who sell books, mind you.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2017)

TwistedTales said:


> Then you won't like me. I hit the publish button pretty quickly. It didn't end my life as a writer by any means, but even if you're learning as you go you still need realistic expectations.
> 
> Earning $9.99 a book as a new author is unlikely. It doesn't mean it can't happen, but odds aren't in your favor. I note the OP has reduced the price and plans to put the book in KU. That's a more realistic way to start.
> 
> ...


All writers improve with time. Take Robert Jordan for example. Reading his early Conan novels then reading Wheel of Time tells you that. But what I am saying - I thought clearly - is that fixing as you go is a bad idea. It shows you don't care about quality. It's the "good enough" attitude that gives those who dislike indie ammunition. I also write fast and publish often. But each release goes through an extensive, multi-leveled editing process and several rounds of proofreading. I have professional covers made and spend a long time crafting the blurb. On a new series, I use beta readers and ask colleagues to critique the work. I set up my ads and my blog spots. Only after that is done do I hit publish. On average I can do this 4-5 times a year with 100k word novels. 
Sales may not be the only yardstick for success, but it is the best. And throwing money behind a launch is not a guarantee. Particularly if you are inexperienced. Money for ads and other promotion need to be spent wisely. And even then it could flop. 
I may not be the greatest literary mind on the planet. In fact I am sure I'm not. But I know how to write an entertaining story. This is proven by...wait for it....sales. I've seen the writers (I'm not saying you are one of these) who are certain of their own genius. They simply can't grasp how readers flock to buy the work of hacks while ignoring theirs. But what I've found is that they lack something...or rather have too much of it. You see, a reader doesn't care how clever the writer is, or how extensive their vocabulary. What matters is if they enjoy the read. Can the writer convey an entertaining story in a manner the reader can easily understand? Can they follow the action? Can they relate to the characters? And so on... And believe it or not, this is a skill. How much detail is just right? How much action do you need and when do you need it? How much information do you give along the way? It's the difference between jazz fusion and a pop song. Sure the jazz is complex and takes enormous talent. But people enjoy pop songs. Most of the time they don't want to sit quietly and listen. They want to dance and sing along with the lyrics. And there is a talent behind creating a great pop song. Don't believe me? I bet you can hear the first two seconds of any Beatles song and know it right away.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

I don't know why people find it necessary to write five hundred word essays in reply. 

It's one of the reasons I stopped reading this forum. 

I know ya'll are authors, but try being succinct.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

EC said:


> I don't know why people find it necessary to write five hundred word essays in reply.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I stopped reading this forum.
> 
> I know ya'll are authors, but try being succinct.


Perhaps they have a lot to say on the subject.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Setting that to the side, the OP has done nothing wrong as such.  Maybe a tad ambitious in the original goal, however this thread is a goldmine of excellent advice.  So it was well worth the OP's time and effort - as long as lessons are learned.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

Doglover said:


> Perhaps they have a lot to say on the subject.


Maybe they should say less and get their point across.


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## Doglover (Sep 19, 2013)

EC said:


> Maybe they should say less and get their point across.


No one is forcing you to read it.


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## NoCat (Aug 5, 2010)

EC said:


> Maybe they should say less and get their point across.


Perhaps you should have a point related to the thread.


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

TwistedTales said:


> As an aside, I notice you spell "ya'll" the way I do. I was taken to task over that so I checked the web. Apparently, both can be used, but I've never been sure which is right. I get its the wrong contraction, but it's how I was used to seeing it spelt. Which is right?


Follow the English punctuation rule for forming a contraction: place the apostrophe where the omitted letters would normally be.

_Y'all_ is the contraction for _you-all_, as in "Y'all are known geniuses!"

_Ya'll_, if listed in the dictionary, would be the contraction for _ya will_ or _ya shall_, as in "Ya'll be sorry!" It's not listed in any of my dictionaries, but none of mine were printed in the last decade, so they may be getting "long in the tooth."

Since you say both are acceptable, which dictionary did you find _ya'll_ listed?


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## WyandVoidbringer (Jan 19, 2017)

EC said:


> I don't know why people find it necessary to write five hundred word essays in reply.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I stopped reading this forum.
> 
> I know ya'll are authors, but try being succinct.


Some of us happen to be reading every last word.

And learning.


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## SC (Jan 6, 2017)

WyandVoidbringer said:


> Some of us happen to be reading every last word.
> 
> And learning.


Yep.

No one's forcing anyone to read words they don't want to. Sheesh. It's like people who say things like, "120k words is too long for any book ever, regardless of content. Cut it down." But that's a different discussion.

As for "y'all", I always spell it "y'all" and it annoys me to see it otherwise. Though I'm not from the South, so it's not something I hear/read frequently. And now I'm wondering if anyone ever tries to contract "you all will". "Y'all'll be sorry!" Probably. Seems like maybe I have heard that before, now that I think of it, but it may not get written much.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

EC said:


> I know ya'll are authors, but try being succinct.


No.


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## EC (Aug 20, 2013)

TwistedTales said:


> Uh oh, now even our posts are getting reviews. It's an epidemic, I say!
> 
> As an aside, I notice you spell "ya'll" the way I do. I was taken to task over that so I checked the web. Apparently, both can be used, but I've never been sure which is right. I get its the wrong contraction, but it's how I was used to seeing it spelt. Which is right?


My editor says that he's right and I'm just to do as I'm told.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%27all

Quoting: "The forms ya'll and yall are also known, but the form y'all is the most prevalent in print, being ten times as common as ya'll.[9] Other less-common forms include yawl and yo-all."


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

EC said:


> My editor says that he's right and I'm just to do as I'm told.


Your response was too long by at least five words.


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> I'll leave it in as an eccentricity.


I say that about all my typohs.


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## Don Donovan (Dec 12, 2015)

Annie B said:


> If your fear is that people will read a few pages and move on, then I think the focus here is on the wrong thing? Because what we have to do as writers in order to build an audience and a career out of this, if that is the goal (which from the first post you made, OP, I think it is your goal)... you have to write books people don't want to put down.
> 
> While I think every writer fears that people won't keep reading... what comes with experience and building of craft is that we know there's a good chance they will (well, we hope anyway, haha). If you are afraid to give away a book for pages read because of that fear, that tells me that maybe you know in your heart that the book won't hold a reader. Given the in-depth review that you agreed with and my own feelings about the sample pages, I have a feeling that might be the case with this book.
> 
> ...


The OP should read every word of this post twice and take it to heart.


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

Off topic, but I get exhausted reading the "money doesn't define success" thing. It always reads as defensive. The reality is, as an author, you can define success however you'd like - by money, word count, a pretty cover, personal satisfaction, if your dog liked it, whatever. But as a publisher, which is one half of what indie is, the ONLY thing that matters is money. It's a business. The book is a product. Either the product makes money or doesn't. No one has ever called a bankrupt company successful. 

People have got to separate the emotion of writing and their personal feelings about their work from the business of publishing. It is two entirely different things.


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## WriterSongwriter (Mar 3, 2017)

Anyone who knows how to spell knows it's not y'all or ya'll, but yous.


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

WriterSongwriter said:


> Anyone who knows how to spell knows it's not y'all or ya'll, but yous.


I thought that was "youse."


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## crow.bar.beer (Oct 20, 2014)

Wassamatta youse?


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## Patrick Urban (Oct 22, 2016)

Jana DeLeon said:


> Off topic, but I get exhausted reading the "money doesn't define success" thing. It always reads as defensive. The reality is, as an author, you can define success however you'd like - by money, word count, a pretty cover, personal satisfaction, if your dog liked it, whatever. But as a publisher, which is one half of what indie is, the ONLY thing that matters is money. It's a business. The book is a product. Either the product makes money or doesn't. No one has ever called a bankrupt company successful.
> 
> People have got to separate the emotion of writing and their personal feelings about their work from the business of publishing. It is two entirely different things.


I agree.
I think much of it stems from some having a leg in one camp (self-expression, artiste, etc) and a leg in the other camp (professional writer, self-employed, entrepreneur). That sort of straddling tends to gum up the works.


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## Ann in Arlington (Oct 27, 2008)

Betsy the Quilter said:


> I thought that was "youse."


If youse are in Pittsburgh its yins.


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## Jena H (Oct 2, 2011)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If youse are in Pittsburgh its yins.


While that's pronounced _yins_ (or _yuns_) I always spell it in my head as _youns._


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## Betsy the Quilter (Oct 27, 2008)

Ann in Arlington said:


> If youse are in Pittsburgh its yins.


But not in the Brownsville area (SE of Pittsburgh)


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## PityPityPity (Apr 10, 2016)

And here in Ireland (in the North at least) it's yousens (and themens).


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## PearlEarringLady (Feb 28, 2014)

TwistedTales said:


> The problem for indies is no one is kicking their butt other than themselves. Their sales today could be due to any number of reasons, many of which may be temporary. Some have done well because they started early and built large mail lists, which are probably less effective as competition grows. Others do well because they're writing a trope that currently has an audience, until it gets bored and wanders off. More still hit on one good idea and never deviate from it, until their fan base grows tired of the same old story. There are a lot of reasons why sales success may be fleeting so using it as the only measure is risky.


In a different thread, Rosalind said something like this, distinguishing between authors who write to a trend/trope/whatever, and those she called 'evergreen'. It struck a chord with me. I like to think my books are evergreen. Well, they aren't written to a trend, so that's the only hope I have...


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## Jana DeLeon (Jan 20, 2011)

TwistedTales said:


> For an indie to be around in ten years I believe they need to keep developing in all ways, not just sell a lot of books today. Today's champions are yesterday's has beens. If you don't want to become a has been then I think an indie needs a robust set of measures. You personally might already know how to self assess, but many don't. Had those once successful authors had a clearer view of why they were doing well, and continued to grow their skills, then maybe they wouldn't be declining now.


So many authors see declining sales because they got in during the boom and that's over now. Now, there's plenty of really talented competition. And traditional publishers (some) have started using the same pricing techniques and advertising sources as indies. So more competition. A LOT of people rode trends and when the trend disappears, so does that income.

The only way to have a longterm career is to write quality books that resonate with readers over and over and over again. That requires talent and education in craft. I have been published for eleven years and my audience and income continue to grow every year. Granted, it grows at a much slower rate now than it did four years ago, but it is not moving backwards. I am also a former CFO and now how to run a business. Those indie that don't know how need to learn. There's really no way around it.

And sales are still the only way to measure the success of a product. Awards don't mean anything and don't make you money. Hitting a list is not the gold ticket to success either that some think it is. It's simply a marketing tool. The bottom line of long term success is and always will be the product.


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## Anarchist (Apr 22, 2015)

Jana DeLeon said:


> And sales are still the only way to measure the success of a product. Awards don't mean anything and don't make you money. Hitting a list is not the gold ticket to success either that some think it is. It's simply a marketing tool. The bottom line of long term success is and always will be the product.


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

All the above is one reason it can be good to write in more than one series/world, even though it's tempting to stick with the most popular series. You will always have attrition as a series goes on, and a new series, even a new but related subgenre, can be a way to broaden your reader base. Plus you learn so much from writing something different. It's scary to take the risk, but so satisfying, and perhaps you end up with stories that blend the best of what you've learned. 

I'm guessing that right now, some authors who have jumped into urban fantasy in KU and have done well may need to work on writing something else when that trend loses steam. There are similar trends in sci fi and romance as well. Doesn't mean those folks won't succeed with another trend, just that it will require some effort and there may be some lower income to deal with during the transition.  

I'm too selfish to chase trends, personally, and I can only write the kinds of books that work for my readers if I'm loving what I'm doing, so I don't do that. My biggest challenge is coming up with stories, not writing them. So the above things may not be challenges for you, X writer. Most writers seem to be able to think up innumerable stories, which probably makes it easier to make the switch and write to what's new.


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## Sam B (Mar 28, 2017)

For anyone who's not keeping an eye on the book, it has joined KU. Don't know about anyone else, but I am going to give it a read.


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## Eugene Kirk (Oct 21, 2016)

Rosalind J said:


> I'm too selfish to chase trends, personally, and I can only write the kinds of books that work for my readers if I'm loving what I'm doing, so I don't do that. My biggest challenge is coming up with stories, not writing them. So the above things may not be challenges for you, X writer. Most writers seem to be able to think up innumerable stories, which probably makes it easier to make the switch and write to what's new.


I also have this issue, coming up with story ideas. I like to think my craft is fairly solid, but I can only write what I "like". I think I could write what's popular, but I can't even read what's popular right now. Rosalind, as someone who has been doing this for a while, have you found that you've been able to "create your own market" successfully by sticking to your craft, genre and voice rather than "writing to current market"?


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## Usedtoposthere (Nov 19, 2013)

Eugene Kirk said:


> I also have this issue, coming up with story ideas. I like to think my craft is fairly solid, but I can only write what I "like". I think I could write what's popular, but I can't even read what's popular right now. Rosalind, as someone who has been doing this for a while, have you found that you've been able to "create your own market" successfully by sticking to your craft, genre and voice rather than "writing to current market"?


Yes. I write to A market, though, and I write to genre expectations. Romance is a huge market with many tastes. That's why I would tell writers to look beyond the top 100 in a gigantic genre like contemporary romance. There are many six and seven figure authors you won't find if you just look at that snapshot for the trends.


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## A. N. Other Author (Oct 11, 2014)

#91,445 at this moment, so an avg of 2 sales per day?

It might climb a fair bit higher if half the people lurking here give it a borrow. I have done, but I'm in the UK so it's getting a little boost here at least. I'll give it a read in a couple of days, although it's out of curiosity. Not really my genre but we've said so much I can hardly pass it up now it's part of KU.

And while I do not wish to encourage gaming the figures, it would be interesting to see what it does if it can creep in to the top 20 of one of its categories. #20 in superhero is currently #3,500 overall which is 64-65 sales/borrows per day.

[edit: although we should not be unrealistically pushing it up the charts with borrows, perhaps we can support Invinciman a little and help it in the keyword rankings. This link will encourage it to climb the keywords http://amzn.to/2nWiTVr - click the link then click on the book itself and it will register as a successful search for the keyword "superhero." Whether it will work without sales attached I don't know. But if anyone is sharing this, perhaps you might consider the link -- and it's not my affiliate link, just a keyword link, with no QID ref]


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## Gator (Sep 28, 2012)

ADDavies said:


> #91,445 at this moment, so an avg of 2 sales per day?


No. Five sales at $9.99 mid-March, plus a borrow yesterday afternoon and a borrow (or sale) this morning. One sale on Amazon.com.au (possibly two, as I didn't check that store for quite a while) and no Kindle sales ranking in any other Amazon store means "no sales, no borrows" in the non-English stores.

If everyone in this thread who said they would buy or borrow this eBook followed through, then nearly every penny Ricky has earned thus far is a result of posting in this forum. Now that the initial 30-day algorithm love has expired, it's a steep uphill climb from here to reach $1K, let alone $100K, in the next year with only one eBook.


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## notjohn (Sep 9, 2016)

> Unless you're Stephen King or the like, you'll eventually wear out those readers


Stephen King has worn me out!

(Same thing with John Irving, sigh.)

On the upside, I'm still following Jack Reacher around the country and the world....


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